# 1Ds Replacement Soon?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 9, 2011)

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<p><strong>Speculation starts up again</strong>

Over at <a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_1DS_MkIV.html" target="_blank">NL</a>, Keith was given some information at the focus show in UK about the upcoming 1Ds4. He was told he wouldn’t have to wait long and it would precede a 5D Mark III.</p>
<p>It is noted the source could have been fed a line to keep people guessing.</p>
<p>I personally haven’t heard anything different than the late 2011/early 2012 I’ve been told in the past.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## traveller (Mar 9, 2011)

I still think that from a marketing point of view, it would make more sense to lauch both of them together. Then potential buyers will know exactly what the score is and won't hold off until the other is released.


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## motorhead (Mar 9, 2011)

Even if Canon keep us waiting until spring 2012 or later, it would be reassuring to know what they plan to offer us with the 1Ds replacement sooner rather than later. An announcement with a bare bones outline soon would be nice. Past tittle tattle that they were moving to medium format would seriously alter my lens purchasing plans if true, although I never gave that much credance.

To get the best from a possible 35-40 MP full frame sensor I need to start updating my lenses and before I start spending large sums of money I really do need some facts.

We are witnessing Canon redesigning their lenses en-masse and I cannot see them doing this for current sensor sizes. I hope it means we will see the format stay the same, but with increasing pixel counts. A pretty safe bet I'm thinking.


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## Bob Howland (Mar 9, 2011)

I have no doubts that a professional FF camera will be coming out before the end of April and probably before the NAB show, but other rumors call for something more competitive with a D3s/D4 than a D3x/D4x. I suppose that would still qualify as a "potential replacement for my 1Ds3" to some.


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## Ivar (Mar 9, 2011)

Looking at the competitive camera prices it seems Canon is not doing that well by being a little bit cheaper. Ok, maybe they are selling more quantities at lower prices than competition and being fine financially (a cropper is cheaper to produce anyway), but this also indicates some sort of weakness. For pro camera companies asking a premium is a sign of strength of their product. 

Now that it is the year for Nikon for new releases I highly doubt Canon can wait much longer, so in my opinion 2012 is only possible for a release when at least one 1-series major upgrade is announced this year, right after or before Nikon's announcement.


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## JLN (Mar 9, 2011)

i'm not entirely sure if there's any strategic value in releasing the 1ds4 before the 5d3.

Anyone in the market who would drop 10k on a camera would most likely wait the extra month or two to see what the 5d3 offers.

Not to mention, as with anything else of late, the delay between announcement and shipping could mean that a 5d3 would be announced before the 1ds4 ships.


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## x-vision (Mar 10, 2011)

1DV soon, 7DII in the fall, and 5DIII next spring. 

You heard it here first 8).


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## x-vision (Mar 10, 2011)

JLN said:


> i'm not entirely sure if there's any strategic value in releasing the 1ds4 before the 5d3.



Each new technology generation at Canon has been introduced with the announcement of a new 1D camera.

The next technology generation will be no exception - 1DV first and then the other models. 

The 1DV will most likely be followed by a 1.6x crop model - the 7DII - and only after that the 5DIII.


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## ronderick (Mar 10, 2011)

Glad to hear that the 1Ds4 is back into the rumor arena...

I guess this means a green light for the Canon FF flagship. 

Why all the confusing rumors and the missed product-cycle timing for 1Ds4? My guess would be that Canon hasn't yet secured a foothold in the medium format project, and it has to answer somehow to Nikon's upcoming D4 this year... Too bad no 645D-like MP monster *shrug*


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## bvukich (Mar 10, 2011)

x-vision said:


> 1DV soon, 7DII in the fall, and 5DIII next spring.
> 
> You heard it here first 8).



Do you honestly think they will let the 5D go almost 5 years without a refresh?

Not likely.


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## Orangutan (Mar 10, 2011)

ronderick said:


> and it has to answer somehow to Nikon's upcoming D4 this year...



This is exactly right: remember, this is a business, not a hobby for Canon and Nikon. Nikon may have gained some market share, but Canon must be gorging itself on profits from the 5D2. Now everyone knows that video is the "killer app" for pro DSLR's, and they're using the Great Recession to re-tool for that. There aren't a lot of people who will lay down $10k for a high-end FF still camera, but there are a lot more who will lay down $10K for a high-end FF still+video camera. I speculate (!) that part of the delay in some of the lenses is to rework them for video, and for other planned or possible changes in technology (>FF?) Nikon is likely doing the same. Since the 5D2 continues to sell quite well at nearly the original price (after how many years?) no one in the pro DSLR market is going to ignore video at this point. (Note to DSLR still-camera purists: you are now officially old fogies)

My guess is that Canon has several versions of prototypes for each of its pro bodies out in circulation, and they're just waiting for Nikon to commit to its answer to the 5D2 and 1D4. For those who claim the 1Ds-series is the prestige camera, I repeat that it's all about money, not prestige. If you want to know when the 5D3 or 1Ds4 or 1D5 will hit the market, I suggest you start following the NikonRumors web site.


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## unfocused (Mar 10, 2011)

> Do you honestly think they will let the 5D go almost 5 years without a refresh?



Five years would be Sept. 2013. 



> Each new technology generation at Canon has been introduced with the announcement of a new 1D camera.
> 
> The next technology generation will be no exception - 1DV first and then the other models.



This makes sense to me, although I disagree with the order. I'll wager on a 1D first. A 5D sometime later. Then a 7D. Could be spread out over a year, 18mos or two years.


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## te4o (Mar 10, 2011)

x-vision said:


> JLN said:
> 
> 
> > Each new technology generation at Canon has been introduced with the announcement of a new 1D camera.
> ...


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## bvukich (Mar 10, 2011)

unfocused said:


> > Do you honestly think they will let the 5D go almost 5 years without a refresh?
> 
> 
> 
> Five years would be Sept. 2013.



Oops, for some reason I had it in my head that it was released Aug 2007 (But that was the 1Ds3). :-[


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## archfotos (Mar 10, 2011)

My question with any of these new to be released pro still/video cameras if they have the ability to record and save video in a raw format is there any software on the market that can handle (edit manipulate) Raw video - I know it's been a pain using fcp with the 5dm2 therefore have mainly used cs5Premier. Even with fcp 8 coming out one month later are we going to be back to a video file that needs transcoded through a dpp software?


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## Rob (Mar 10, 2011)

If Canon brought out a 1D MK5, made it Full Frame with 21mp and with iso that bettered the D3s at the same price level it would turn the table back in their favour. Then worry about a 1Ds replacement down the line, maybe with 40mp+? for those that want it.


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## motorhead (Mar 10, 2011)

Rob,

That would be entirely the wrong camera for me. 21mp is yesterdays news, everyone seems to have cameras with at least that these days. I will also never need the extremely high ISO's already being offered. No I want the 40MP now, with 50 (or more) next time around.


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## dwward (Mar 10, 2011)

> Each new technology generation at Canon has been introduced with the announcement of a new 1D camera.
> 
> The next technology generation will be no exception - 1DV first and then the other models.



From a business perspective, this makes perfect sense. Some folks here seem to lose sight of a very simple truth: The _sole_ purpose for any publicly traded company to exist -- including Canon and Nikon -- is to maximize profits. Canon doesn't compete with Nikon to win a race -- they compete to maximize revenue and take market share from competitors which translates to more profits. 

I've read here many times that the 5DM2 cannibalized the 1Ds market. If true, Canon will not want this to happen again as the margin on the 1D line is greater (just like the margin on a Cadillac Escalade is significantly greater than a Denali). 

So, if Canon wants to make a FF splash with a significant upgrade, it will be the 1Ds with a lesser version in the form of a 5DM3 to follow many months or even year later. Canon wouldn't want those who have been waiting for new FF to have all bought the 5DM3 when they announce a new 1Ds. 

Maybe Canon isn't ready for a significant upgrade, so they update the 5D line by tinkering at the margins (7D dual processors and 7D auto focus for instance) to bolster sales while they ready the new 1Ds. 

But if there is a splash to be made by significant upgrades (ie major megapixel boast), how can that not be first released in the 1D line? 

Updating the 7D before the older 5DM2 makes no sense me.

my 2 cents.


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## Bob Howland (Mar 10, 2011)

dwward said:


> So, if Canon wants to make a FF splash with a significant upgrade, it will be the 1Ds with a lesser version in the form of a 5DM3 to follow many months or even year later. Canon wouldn't want those who have been waiting for new FF to have all bought the 5DM3 when they announce a new 1Ds.



Nor, after a 1Ds4 introduction, do they want prospective 1Ds4 buyers to wait for a 5DMk3 that they expect to come, especially if those buyers already own a 1Ds3 or 5D2 and find their current cameras' image quality to be acceptable for most or all of their work. This problem isn't unique to Canon. There are a considerable number of Nikonians who have been impatiently waiting for a D700X with the D3X sensor and a D700S with the D3S sensor.


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## Justin (Mar 10, 2011)

You're both right. But remember that high margin products are not money makers without volume. Canon makes more money in consumer imaging selling rebels than it does any other slr. A dual announcement with real differentiation between the technologies obviates the problems you both describe. The problem Canon has created and the world of Canon shooters has had to live with during these past 4 years or so is there is either too much or not enough product differentiation between technologies. Think of it this way:

1) there is NO one Canon camera that does everything (1Ds3 and 5D2 have their own strengths and weaknesses, price, sensor, AF, ruggedness, etc)
2) important technologies work their way into lower level models whose core specs don't meet the photographer's needs (7D has a wonderful AF system and is more rugged than a 5D2 and a hell of a lot faster, but does not match IQ of the full frame 5D2 OR 1D4 meets the ruggedness and speed and focal length multiplier criteria for sports shooters, but lacks the detail in files that the 1Ds has).

What do people who frequent boards expect and or want from these cameras? Hopefully Canon will exceed our expectations but those expectations go something like this:

5D3
-full frame sensor upgrade
-low light capability
-faster processing
-modest frames per second bump (maybe 4.0 or 4.2)
-improved auto focus (everyone cites the 7D as a target)
-improved ruggedness and weather sealing (this is after all a tool used widely by landscapers and outdoor shooters)

1Ds4
-major full frame sensor upgrade (very high resolution (push into medium territory which means 40+ MP minimum for studio work)
-low light advantages over medium format (so clean ISO 3200)
-frame per second advantages over medium format (think minimum of 5 fps)
-capable AF
-fast processing
-built in triggering and command for strobes
-rugged with ample battery life







Bob Howland said:


> dwward said:
> 
> 
> > So, if Canon wants to make a FF splash with a significant upgrade, it will be the 1Ds with a lesser version in the form of a 5DM3 to follow many months or even year later. Canon wouldn't want those who have been waiting for new FF to have all bought the 5DM3 when they announce a new 1Ds.
> ...


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## AJ (Mar 11, 2011)

JLN said:


> i'm not entirely sure if there's any strategic value in releasing the 1ds4 before the 5d3.
> 
> Anyone in the market who would drop 10k on a camera would most likely wait the extra month or two to see what the 5d3 offers.



Em, no.

If a pro needs a camera, he or she will buy it now. They are not technology-speculating geeks.

A pro will buy the camera for its build, dual card slots, etc. Stuff that the 5D series doesn't offer. 5D = consumer, 1Ds = pro. Completely different markets.


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## Bob Howland (Mar 11, 2011)

AJ said:


> A pro will buy the camera for its build, dual card slots, etc. Stuff that the 5D series doesn't offer. 5D = consumer, 1Ds = pro. Completely different markets.



So what are the people making a living using 5D's? There seem to be an awful lot of them.


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## motorhead (Mar 11, 2011)

I know two pro's still happily using the 30D and I have heard of another using a 20D. Why spend a fortune on kit when something cheaper does the job? It's the nut on the end of the shutter button that makes or breaks the image, not the kit. An aquaintance works as a staff 'tog on a UK sailing mag, all his kit is well used, especially the tripod, which is literally held together with brown plastic tape! 

However, I fully understand that the 1D series is built like a tank because its designed to be a professional tool, while the 5D is less robust. I admit that I am in the market when the 1Ds mk4 appears, talent, or rather a lack of, will then clearly be my only problem!


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## tzalmagor (Mar 12, 2011)

motorhead said:


> That would be entirely the wrong camera for me. 21mp is yesterdays news, everyone seems to have cameras with at least that these days. I will also never need the extremely high ISO's already being offered. No I want the 40MP now, with 50 (or more) next time around.



Seems to have, or actually need ? Not everybody buys a DSLR to print posters.


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## motorhead (Mar 12, 2011)

Sorry, should have been clearer. I was referring to camera manufacturers. I agree for the user everthing depends on individual needs.


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## tzalmagor (Mar 12, 2011)

motorhead said:


> Sorry, should have been clearer. I was referring to camera manufacturers. I agree for the user everthing depends on individual needs.



Canon offers four resolutions - 21MP, 18MP, 16MP (1Dmk4, too expensive for me), and 12MP (1100D).

Which is why I'm keeping an open eye on the Nikon D700 replacement.


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## Thomas McConnell (Jun 10, 2011)

I think there are so many software those can handle raw video, but most of them requires money.

Thomas McConnell


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## This is the Edge (Jul 12, 2011)

This is from Russell James' (Victoria Secret Photographer) assistant Alex in response to a fan's questions about the difference between the 1Ds II and III.

"Raymond- there is a huge difference. The image quality is much better, high resolution, better ISO, but if you think about getting a new one wait a little bit, the new one is on the way "


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## dr croubie (Jul 12, 2011)

Thomas McConnell said:


> I think there are so many software those can handle raw video, but most of them requires money.



and if you can afford a $3000-$10000 camera, and actually need the quality of raw video because you're a pro actually making movies, then you can afford to shell out $a few hundred for editing software.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 12, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> Thomas McConnell said:
> 
> 
> > I think there are so many software those can handle raw video, but most of them requires money.
> ...



$3,000 - $10,000 is nothing compared to the software used to process HDDSLR video for movies. Its mostly done by specislty houses, no one really buys software to process video for a motion picture, its custom software.

The Red Epics that Peter Jackson is using to film "The Hobbit are said to run $58,000 ea as equiped for filming, and there are thirty of them. Processing not included.

http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets/peter-jacksons-hobbit-films-to-be-made-on-30-red-epic-cameras-20101129/

The movie business is not about $3,000 or $10,000 cameras and a few hundred dollars worth of software.


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## UncleFester (Jul 12, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The movie business is not about $3,000 or $10,000 cameras and a few hundred dollars worth of software.



What about independent (no-to-low budget)?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 12, 2011)

UncleFester said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > The movie business is not about $3,000 or $10,000 cameras and a few hundred dollars worth of software.
> ...



Which no to low budget movies have been released lately? Those filmed with HDDSLR's are not ready for the big screen. They are reprocessed first, and the cost is huge. 

If you think that a home video goes straight into a movie, you have been misled.

Remember, this was a answer to someone who claimed that the cost of software to process RAW Video for producing a movie was hundreds of dollars.

Of course, you can make a home movie cheaply, but the cost of getting it ready to release to a big screen is not trivial. 

Those independent movie makers sell their production to a company who then invests the big dollars to reprocess it and distribute it to the theaters.


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## UncleFester (Jul 12, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> UncleFester said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



Well, the reason why I asked my question in that way is because, IMO, big movie business isn't the only movie business. And I'm sure there are a lot of independent no-budget artists who don't get seen, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there making movies - from dslr to FCP to low budget distribution on vhs or dvd or whatever. It's just like the independent music biz. Look at youtube - what a great avenue for shorts and getting your name out.

And no, I can't name anyone as I don't pay that much attention to feature and direct more of my attention to documentary these days.

And yes, I understand movies don't go from dslr to big screen, and the costs of bumping and distribution and all that.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 12, 2011)

UncleFester said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > UncleFester said:
> ...



Uncle Fester, thanks for your thoughts.

We are on the same page, I just did not want would be film makers to be disillusioned and think that they could actually produce a feature movie ready for distribution with a few hundred dollars worth of software.

Certainly, professional video productions (as opposed to big screen cinema can be done with software like final cut pro or Adobe Production Suite (Preimere Pro, Audition, encore DVD) for a few thousand dollars.

Or amateur productions can be done on a shoestring for utube, etc. Its just terminology, but I think of movies as big screen releases, and videos as DVD type productions for smaller screens like TV sets or pc screens.

Here is a good reference for would be film makers of the cinematography or professional kind)

http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/category/workflow-and-production/digital-workflow/


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## chuckjr (Jul 14, 2011)

That's not an accurate blanket statement. Many pro's, especially those of here in los angeles, rent high end bodies and then invoice the client for it. Why spend $8000 on a body that will be worth 30% of that in four years? 
My personal gear is different, i own the lenses and a decent body but if a job requires a medium format sensor or the speed and size associated with a 1Ds I'll rent it. 




 AJ said:


> JLN said:
> 
> 
> > i'm not entirely sure if there's any strategic value in releasing the 1ds4 before the 5d3.
> ...


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