# Preproduction EOS 7D Mark II Cameras in Brazil for World Cup



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 22, 2014)

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<p>Preproduction models of the Canon EOS 7D Mark II will be in the field at the FIFA World Cup in Brazil next month according to a new report. It’s the hope of Canon to announce the camera in August to show off at Photokina in September.</p>
<p>This is probably the same sort of path Nikon is going to take with the D9300, which is rumored to be the replacement for the D300s.</p>
<p>Source: [<a href="http://www.canonwatch.com/next-canon-aps-c-flagship-will-come-photokina-prototypes-tested-2014-fifa-world-cup/" target="_blank">CW</a>]</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## Don Haines (May 22, 2014)

Hoping for something exciting!

If it were only minor incremental improvements, they would no be field testing prototypes or pre-production models at the world cup.... even the 70D with DPAF did not get a "public field test".....


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## Jan (May 22, 2014)

Is this a CR3?


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## mkabi (May 22, 2014)

I may be one of the few cinema line enthusiasts that frequent this forum...

In any case, I wonder if they will release a 7DC too?

Lets give the stills people what they want... and also have another camera for the video peeps.
So far in the line up of cinema cameras, there is only one DSLR style cam i.e. the 1DC, and 3 camcorder style cams i.e. CX00 cameras... it would be nice to have another more affordable cinema DSLR.


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## Dylan777 (May 22, 2014)

interested to see what 7D II has to offer..... :


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## Chaitanya (May 22, 2014)

I am skeptical about release of a replacement for 7d anytime soon. I was planning to get a 70d in next few days, but with price of camera dropping in US and dollar coming down its best not to buy the 70d anytime soon. if canon really releases the replacememt to 7d then I might just buy that camera instead of 70d. I will wait patiently till jan for a new camera as my 450d is still serving very well for macro needs.


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## Don Haines (May 22, 2014)

mkabi said:


> I may be one of the few cinema line enthusiasts that frequent this forum...
> 
> In any case, I wonder if they will release a 7DC too?
> 
> ...



Personally, I think that improvements in a camera that make video better usually also make stills better. Unlike many on the forum who claim that they would die before shooting video on a DSLR, I do both.


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## SPL (May 22, 2014)

A new 7D II sounds cool!,…but is everyone else as confused as I am about Nikons alpha-numeric system on naming their camera bodies?


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## Etienne (May 22, 2014)

mkabi said:


> I may be one of the few cinema line enthusiasts that frequent this forum...
> 
> In any case, I wonder if they will release a 7DC too?
> 
> ...



Agree... but a 7Dc would be at least $4000 if the 1Dc is any indication on pricing


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## Lee Jay (May 22, 2014)

An open question for me is, what full-frame camera will have essentially the 7D II's technology?

I see two options:

[list type=decimal]
[*]The 7DII is based off the 5DIII, and thus the 5DIII is the full-frame 7DII
[*]The 7DII is an expansion of the 70D and the 5DIII, and thus the 5DIV would be the full-frame 7DII
[/list]

I've shot for nearly a decade now with the 20D and 5D, which are very nearly the same camera with different sized sensors. I REALLY like this approach. I'd love a 7DII for high-frame-rate and long-reach applications and a full-frame version that's slower (because of the larger mirror and shutter) as it's partner. Shooting this way has really proven to have merit for me, largely because I don't have to switch UI and camera behavior when switching bodies on the fly at an event.


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## candyman (May 22, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> interested to see what 7D II has to offer..... :



I think it is G.A.S. 

What about the 1DX?
A dream no? 
And the 16-35 f/4 IS? 
choices choices choices...... 8)


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## AcutancePhotography (May 22, 2014)

SPL said:


> A new 7D II sounds cool!,…but is everyone else as confused as I am about Nikons alpha-numeric system on naming their camera bodies?



It is pretty confusing at times. ;D


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## pierlux (May 22, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Hoping for something exciting!
> 
> If it were only minor incremental improvements, they would no be field testing prototypes or pre-production models at the world cup.... even the 70D with DPAF did not get a "public field test".....



Agreed. After 5 years it has to be something exciting. The same has happened with the 1Ds3/1D4 to 1Dx and 5D2 to 5D3 transitions, both noteworthy improvements. A 5-year interval between releases was a loooong time even during the film age.


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## NancyP (May 22, 2014)

Well, the 5 year long wait may be over soon. I am curious, but to tell the truth, may not be first out of the gate in buying. I have the 60D and 6D combo, and I still like my 60D - although the 6D whips its posterior for low light. I suppose that once I experience sophisticated AF, I will be hooked - currently I am a center point-recompose gal. Furthermore, I am - still - trying to figure out whether I want to go for a normal zoom on the 6D (and which one), versus the ginormous but impressive Sigma 50 Art plus existing brick-like 21mm f/2.8 and 35mm f/1.4 lenses. I love primes, just not hiking with 2.5 kg of primes. Delicious dilemma!


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## Lightmaster (May 22, 2014)

so are they already in the hands of some sport photographers?

i guess so... canon don´t give them new cameras a few days before the world cup and expect pros to use them for making their living.

but still no specs?
not a single source who has something solid to say?

even the NSA has more leaks... :


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## jrista (May 22, 2014)

Lightmaster said:


> so are they already in the hands of some sport photographers?
> 
> i guess so... canon don´t give them new cameras a few days before the world cup and expect pros to use them for making their living.
> 
> ...



Hmm...maybe the NSA should hire some Canon security execs to plug their holes... ;P


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## pierlux (May 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> Lightmaster said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



LOL! 

And Canon some NSA officer to make us happily tittle-tattle about geeky cool stuff...


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## Lightmaster (May 22, 2014)

this is not funny.... this poses a real threat for "rumor" forums.


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## Khufu (May 22, 2014)

Is it fairly safe to assume APS-C High ISO performance has hit a bit of a plateau and this shouldn't really be expected to be much of an improvement on that front from the SL1 and 70D sensors? 
I'm sure this'll be going for the high-fps, fast AF niches, but the 70D performance has left me wondering if ~18-24 megapixel APSC has just about reached it's low light limits...


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## Canon 14-24 (May 22, 2014)

If I recall, the main selling point of the 7D when it was released was it's superior redesigned AF system and FPS over the XXD. Here was a solution to those in the prosumer segment that couldn't afford a 1D series to afford a better AF system and were complaining about the old 9 point AF system. It was definitely a more action/sports/wildlife kinda camera. Right now, I would say Canon's AF offerings are on-par - so really is a 7d mark II even needed?

My question is what "big" photography related improvements could they do to an already fine piece of equipment (non-video related features - please)? Throw in the 1dx/5d3 AF system in a crop body and push the fps up by 1-3fps (from some new processor or dual processor), maybe 0.5-1stop of ISO performance, maybe throw in an articulated screen and some minor ergonomics and good to go? All of these seem lackluster/marginal and lack the wow of the innovative new AF system and FPS this camera initially bought to canon users at its release.

Seriously, I think 7d users could get a bigger benefit from better glass such as the 70-400 or a 100-400 II lens. A mark II of this camera is nothing exciting to get over especially if it's using a crop sensor like another "exciting" rebel release...maybe make this camera come in a white version?


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## brad-man (May 22, 2014)

It will certainly have a new generation sensor with DPAF. Canon wouldn't dare release their newest "semi-pro" body with a rehashed version of the driven-into-the-ground 18MP hanger on. The question, of coarse, is what improvements will the new design bring to the table. Killer frame rate and AF system is a given...


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## TrabimanUK (May 22, 2014)

Oh well, not in time for me. 5diii it is then


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## Sporgon (May 22, 2014)

Canon 14-24 said:


> If I recall, the main selling point of the 7D when it was released was it's superior redesigned AF system and FPS over the XXD. Here was a solution to those in the prosumer segment that couldn't afford a 1D series to afford a better AF system and were complaining about the old 9 point AF system. It was definitely a more action/sports/wildlife kinda camera. Right now, I would say Canon's AF offerings are on-par - so really is a 7d mark II even needed?
> 
> My question is what "big" photography related improvements could they do to an already fine piece of equipment



I don't want to sound cynical, but I hope the 7DII isn't just a 70D with the 'top end' ergonomics, just as the xxD line had up until the 60 and 70D combined a rebel interface with the larger body. 

A little faster, gain a proper rear wheel + joystick, maybe lose the pop up flash.....


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## jrista (May 22, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> Canon 14-24 said:
> 
> 
> > If I recall, the main selling point of the 7D when it was released was it's superior redesigned AF system and FPS over the XXD. Here was a solution to those in the prosumer segment that couldn't afford a 1D series to afford a better AF system and were complaining about the old 9 point AF system. It was definitely a more action/sports/wildlife kinda camera. Right now, I would say Canon's AF offerings are on-par - so really is a 7d mark II even needed?
> ...



I don't know about losing the popup flash. That has always had the ability to remotely control other Canon flashes. You don't actually have to flash the popup, but you can use the IR comm. capabilities to trigger other off-camera flashes. That's a nice, pro-level feature. I would expect the 7D II to still have a flash, but have on capable of communicating with Canon's new radio line of flashes.

I expect the 7D II to also get a higher frame rate than the 5D III, at least 8fps if not 10fps, and I also expect it to get an improved AF system worthy of Canon's current pro line. I'm not sure the 61pt AF system will fit and APS-C frame, and I'm not sure it can be scaled to work with an APS-C frame. I do hope for something along the linesof a 41pt system, though. 

It's been rumored before on multiple occasions, so I also expect the 7D II to have a lot of video feature enhancements. The video on the 7D is pretty lackluster. I don't quite know if the new video features will be 7DC level, but they should be of a higher level of quality and capability than any other models except the 5D III, and still maybe better than that.


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## Canon 14-24 (May 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> It's been rumored before on multiple occasions, so I also expect the 7D II to have a lot of video feature enhancements. The video on the 7D is pretty lackluster. I don't quite know if the new video features will be 7DC level, but they should be of a higher level of quality and capability than any other models except the 5D III, and still maybe better than that.



Yep I suspect it's going to marketed with video features, however still photography wise...I don't see these marginal upgrades such as +1-2 fps (from 8fps) being upgrade worthy though?

It's a prosumer ergonomic design+materials (solid top component over entire plastic) + the AF system that are the sell over the xxD and rebel lines.


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## Marauder (May 22, 2014)

Personally, I think the 7D Mark II will be an awesome camera, much better than any other APS-C camera. But let me qualify that opinion.

I expect it's low light/noise performance to be considerably better than the aging 7D -- but only slightly better (or on par) with the 70D's. I don't expect it to come anywhere near any of the full-frame or APS-H cameras in that regard. It'd be NICE if it did, but anyone who's holding out for a major improvement in low light should really just pony up for a 5D Mark III (or a 6D if they don't need fast action type photography). Or a 1DX if they can afford it (or a second-hand 1D Mark IV).

Where I do expect a huge improvement is in performance for wildlife, sports and action shooting. In particular, burst rate, buffer and AI Servo AF improvements are going to be the main items for this camera. 

I think we can expect a much better frame rate of at least 10fps and possibly even the rumoured 12. In addition, I think we can expect to see a large buffer to take advantage of that frame rate. Expect it to at least match the post firmware 24 RAW buffer of the current 7D, but I expect it to do even better--possibly 30-35 RAW shots. Indeed, that would be almost a MUST have with the increased frame rate. I'd like to see the 12fps, but 10fps would certainly be a worthy improvement over the current 7D's 8fps or the 70D's 7fps. To those who don't think there's much of a difference between 8fps and 10fps, those extra 2 frames can make the difference between capturing the entire bird just as it leaves the branch, and getting a decapitated shot with just the wings and feet! And 12fps would be even better! Not to mention capturing much more of a stunning sequence, such as a canon shot or explosion at a War of 1812 re-enactment, or any number of other scenarios.

The area where APS-C cameras really need improvement is in AF. The 19 point AF system of the 7D is a pretty awesome piece of tech, but it misses too often compared to the AF systems of the 5D Mark III and 1DX, or even the 1D Mark IV. The 70D has gotten an improved version of the 7D's 19 point AF of course that is reputed to be more reliable than the 7D's system and that's fine for the xxD line, but the 7D Mark II needs a FIRST CLASS AF system to justify its premium price. Earlier rumours suggested it would get a variation on the 61 Point AF system of the 5D3/1DX and later ones suggested a revolutionary new AF that would be shared with a new 1 series camera. Either of those options work for me! The main thing it NEEDS is superior Servo tracking of moving targets, the same way the 5D3 and 1DX do. The current 7D struggles too often with moving targets like birds, even when you hold the active AF point on target. 

I love my 7D, but I'm REALLY excited on the expected/rumoured improvements we can expect from this camera. I don't think it will just be some warmed over 70D with different ergonomics. That would be an epic failure if Canon did that after so much anticipation. I also expect it will have a DPAF (probably 24MP) and enhanced video, which is all good. It will have cleaner output than the 7D, but probably on par or moderately better than the 70D. Where it will mostly shine is in world-class speed and AF capabilities. 

Time will tell!


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## GMCPhotographics (May 22, 2014)

It would be great to have a high frame rate 1.6x crop camera with 5DIII AF and metering...with the per pixel sharpness and high ISO ability of the 5DIII. That really would be worth investing in! I'd buy one!
Other wise, I'm happy with my 5DIII and a 1.4x TC


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## Lightmaster (May 22, 2014)

only thing that would make me buy/want a 7D MK2 is same/better image quality as sonys sensors.

less grain, better DR, less shadow noise, less banding in shadows.

when it´s a video beefed up 7D with a better AF but same image quality... i have no real use for it. 

not that the 7D IQ is that bad... but i am not willing to spend that money in 2014 for basically 700D image quality.

canon has to make a real jump in APS-C IQ to get me interested in APS-C again.


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## jrista (May 22, 2014)

Canon 14-24 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > It's been rumored before on multiple occasions, so I also expect the 7D II to have a lot of video feature enhancements. The video on the 7D is pretty lackluster. I don't quite know if the new video features will be 7DC level, but they should be of a higher level of quality and capability than any other models except the 5D III, and still maybe better than that.
> ...



What you call "marginal" is actually a 25% improvement (I don't see it being 9fps, it'll probably be 10fps). A 25% improvement in anything is far more than marginal. Besides, the next step up would be 12fps, and I really don't see Canon pushing that kind of frame rate from the 1D X down to the 7D II, regardless of how the two cameras are classified. A 41pt AF system with the same kind of performance/precision/accuracy of the 61pt AF system would be a MASSIVE improvement over the 19pt AF system, so that's certainly not marginal. You also get more custom functions and configurable options with the 7D line than xxD and lower lines, along with C1-3 user configurable dial options. There is also the very strong likelihood it will get dual memory cards (I TRULY hope for dual CF/CFast2, but I suspect the 7D II will be gimped just like the 5D III with a CF and SD slot...in which case the feature is largely useless.) 

There is also the high likelihood it will be getting a new sensor (I think it is extremely remote that it would get the 18mp or even the 20mp APS-C sensors...Canon KNOWS they have to really break new ground with the 7D II). 

These are all benefits that lower cameras don't get (although the 70D does have one single configurable C user mode dial option). It isn't just one feature or another, it's the complex of features packaged into a single camera. Same deal as with the 5D III...people cherry pick one feature or another to talk about, and no single feature of the 5D III is particularly significant over the 5D II (with the exception of the AF system)...but the camera as a whole, all the features of the 5D III put together, make it a VERY radical upgrade. I think the 7D II will be the same kind of release.


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## Lightmaster (May 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> There is also the high likelihood it will be getting a new sensor (I think it is extremely remote that it would get the 18mp or even the 20mp APS-C sensors...Canon KNOWS they have to really break new ground with the 7D II).



not to spit into your coffee.. but i thought that about kodak for a decade. 
and nothing happend.


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## Khufu (May 23, 2014)

jrista, i've never heard a 5D3 (nor 6D or 1DX) owner claim that their sensor is not a massive leap beyond the low-light capabilities of the 5D2, only 5D2 owners and/or other non-current-generation FF sensor users


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## Khufu (May 23, 2014)

I'm wondering if what CW reported in Dec 2013 of Canon working on one of their most significant changes in some time and the past rumours of a professional Mirrorless camera with a EVF could infact be this 7D follow-up... 

I could genuinely see that happening - could certainly speed up the FPS to that of some phone and P&S cameras and utilise that 80-ish-percent on-sensor coverage for DPAF plus Viewfinder shooting! 

I could still also see this banging out 12-14 fps as a dSLR, complete with grip, like a further-cropped 1D, to get back the more-reach sports and wildlife shooters with a real pro crop cam!
70D's hopped back to being more professional, 7D's going 1D @ 1.6... Perhaps?!


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## wsmith96 (May 23, 2014)

jrista said:


> Hmm...maybe the NSA should hire some Canon security execs to plug their holes... ;P



hahaha +1


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## wsmith96 (May 23, 2014)

I could see them updating the existing 45p AF system of the earlier 1D's and integrating it here, but I had read an article earlier regarding the future of DPAP that suggested that we would be seeing significant improvements in that technology. IF that is the case for this rumored camera, it wouldn't be that far fetched to see a camera with high FPS as an optical view finder would not necessarily be needed anymore. I do not have a 70D, but can someone comment on using live view to track moving people? I would think it would be a sports photographer's dream to use live view, touch the screen on the player they want to track, then let the camera keep them in focus as they play while clicking away. 

I'm probably speaking crazy talk, but I think that would be awesome.


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## Don Haines (May 23, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> I could see them updating the existing 45p AF system of the earlier 1D's and integrating it here, but I had read an article earlier regarding the future of DPAP that suggested that we would be seeing significant improvements in that technology. IF that is the case for this rumored camera, it wouldn't be that far fetched to see a camera with high FPS as an optical view finder would not necessarily be needed anymore. I do not have a 70D, but can someone comment on using live view to track moving people? I would think it would be a sports photographer's dream to use live view, touch the screen on the player they want to track, then let the camera keep them in focus as they play while clicking away.
> 
> I'm probably speaking crazy talk, but I think that would be awesome.


Being as I have a p/s camera that can not only track people, but recognize which person and tag the photo with their name, I think you are bang on the target.


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## Rowbear (May 23, 2014)

How about a return to the APS-H size sensor for the 7D Mk II ?


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## pwp (May 23, 2014)

pierlux said:


> Agreed. After 5 years it has to be something exciting. The same has happened with the 1Ds3/1D4 to 1Dx and 5D2 to 5D3 transitions, both noteworthy improvements. A 5-year interval between releases was a loooong time even during the film age.


The EOS-1 ran from 1989 to 1994 (5 years) followed by the EOS1-n which ran till 2000 (6 years) followed by the EOS 1-V which I believe you can still buy (14 years). The venerable Canon A1 ran from 1978-1985. The legendary EOS-3 had a huge lifespan, 1998-2007.

As the dust has settled after the initial decade of the digital revolution, we'll continue to see just incremental improvements and longer lives between updates. Personally I find this both refreshing and irrationally irritating.

-pw


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## Lee Jay (May 23, 2014)

Rowbear said:


> How about a return to the APS-H size sensor for the 7D Mk II ?



Please...I just ate!


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## tron (May 23, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> Rowbear said:
> 
> 
> > How about a return to the APS-H size sensor for the 7D Mk II ?
> ...


Come on. This is NOT yet discussed 10000 times (9999 tops) ;D
(including this one ;D )


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## Don Haines (May 23, 2014)

Rowbear said:


> How about a return to the APS-H size sensor for the 7D Mk II ?


Not going to happen!

An APS-H camera can not use any of the APS-C lenses, does not have the "reach" of APS-C, and does not have the low light capabilities or IQ of FF. You get the disadvantages of both with none of the advantages of either.

You would be better off with a FF camera.

APS-H came about when FF sensors were hard to manufacture and expensive. Now, the cost difference would be minimal. The real question should be how long will APS-C last in DSLRs....


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## Arkarch (May 23, 2014)

Awhile back I might have been more excited. I have the 7D and 5Dm3 pair - however current needs really have me looking for a second FF.

Most of my work these days is Landscape and Motorsports. Yes, an odd mix but I enjoy the different work and thought processes. 

For Motorsports - now that I got the 300/2.8 II which works great with the 1.4 and 2.0 TC's, what I really want at the track is one FF with the 300 and one with the 70/200. Having a Crop Body just doesnt work for me. But I could really use a 1DX in this case. If the sensor was a significant jump, maybe I would use a 7DII for the long shots. But for the next year, I have wondered if just getting a 6D as second body would be the better pairing.

For Landscape, I am almost always 5Dm3. Only when I need the extra reach, maybe wildlife, do I use the 7D. At present it comes along primarily as backup. What I am really looking for is the next FF high MP camera.

In neither case does the 7Dm2 enter the discussion, except as a reason to get an updated crop body.


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## ewg963 (May 23, 2014)

Good it's about time!!!! Bring it on!!!


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## wsmith96 (May 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Rowbear said:
> 
> 
> > How about a return to the APS-H size sensor for the 7D Mk II ?
> ...



You would still have some reach, right? I agree that a FF camera would be better, but if APS-H were to come back, that might push folks who are on the fence in the direction of purchasing more expensive glass immediately. I kinda like my "320mm" 70-200 though


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## jrista (May 23, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> I could see them updating the existing 45p AF system of the earlier 1D's and integrating it here, but I had read an article earlier regarding the future of DPAP that suggested that we would be seeing significant improvements in that technology. IF that is the case for this rumored camera, it wouldn't be that far fetched to see a camera with high FPS as an optical view finder would not necessarily be needed anymore. I do not have a 70D, but can someone comment on using live view to track moving people? I would think it would be a sports photographer's dream to use live view, touch the screen on the player they want to track, then let the camera keep them in focus as they play while clicking away.
> 
> I'm probably speaking crazy talk, but I think that would be awesome.



Live view is NOT conducive to photographing action. It just presents a clunky use case, because your head has to be back from the camera in order to see the live view screen. With the OVF, your face is pressed up against the camera, which gives it a SIGNIFICANT amount of stability. This goes for hand-held or mounted on a tripod.

There is also an intrinsic lag between when action actually occurs, and when it can be presented on a screen. It's only a few tens of milliseconds, but that is enough that you can miss the moment of action your waiting for, because in many cases, especially with higher frame rates, a few tens of milliseconds can mean several frames have been missed.

There are also a lot of things that dedicated PDAF sensors do that DPAF doesn't do, and won't be doing for a while. At the moment, DPAF essentially turns the entire sensor into one giant line sensor. A dedicated PDAF sensor has selectable points, and each of those points can sense in the horizontal, vertical, diagonal, or even a cross or dual cross (horiz/vert + diag in two directions 90° perpendicular). The ability to use cross type or dual cross type AF points gives dedicated PDAF sensors a significant edge in terms of speed, precision, and accuracy. Even with the 7D's jittery 19pt AF, when using the center cross point with my EF 600mm f/4 L II, AF is extremely fast. With the 5D III, it is effectively instantaneous. DPAF, while it is certainly an improvement on previous FPPDAF systems, it is still relatively slow compared to a dedicated PDAF unit that requires a mirror.

As an action shooter myself, I hope Canon has no plans to ditch dedicated AF units for a LONG time. They are tried and true, they have reached their pinnacle with dense reticulated point grids, and they are extremely, extremely effective, especially for situations where your eye is pressed up against the viewfinder. At some point, after several more iterations of refinement and enhancement, DPAF MIGHT be ready to replace a dedicated AF unit, but now is not even remotely close to the time.


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## wsmith96 (May 23, 2014)

In today's cameras I agree with you that live view is not conducive to action photography. It is rather slow. I do believe that we'll see more movement in this direction as dslr's incorporate more video features. Now my crystal ball is about as good as yours, but I could see the functionality I described earlier available with an evf. In that case you could use a joystick on camera to select the focus spot then let the camera track. That could solve your hand held request.


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## weixing (May 23, 2014)

Hi,


wsmith96 said:


> In today's cameras I agree with you that live view is not conducive to action photography. It is rather slow. I do believe that we'll see more movement in this direction as dslr's incorporate more video features. Now my crystal ball is about as good as yours, but I could see the functionality I described earlier available with an evf. In that case you could use a joystick on camera to select the focus spot then let the camera track. That could solve your hand held request.


 I don't think 7DII will have an evf... if so, I think a lot of wildlife photographer will be disappointed as a lot of wildlife photographer use the viewfinder a lot even when not taking photo and most of them won't be happy if they need to bring a lots of batteries.

Have a nice day.


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## Sporgon (May 23, 2014)

weixing said:


> I don't think 7DII will have an evf... if so, I think a lot of wildlife photographer will be disappointed as a lot of wildlife photographer use the viewfinder a lot even when not taking photo and most of them won't be happy if they need to bring a lots of batteries.
> 
> Have a nice day.



There are two things we can guarantee about the 7DII. 

1: it will not have an EVF ( thank goodness)

2: it will be met by howls of derision and disappointment on the Internet forums that will then gradually turn to grunts of respect twelve months later


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## Marauder (May 23, 2014)

jrista said:


> Canon 14-24 said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Well said!


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## Don Haines (May 23, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> weixing said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think 7DII will have an evf... if so, I think a lot of wildlife photographer will be disappointed as a lot of wildlife photographer use the viewfinder a lot even when not taking photo and most of them won't be happy if they need to bring a lots of batteries.
> ...



If it did have an EVF, it would be because they have solved all the shortcomings of the EVF, and the howls of derision and disappointment would turn into deafening shrieks


----------



## Don Haines (May 23, 2014)

My prediction:

Storage: Cfast2 card for speed and a UHS-II SD card for versatility

AF: very similar to the 1DX but with fewer points, somewhere around 40-45. Image tracking in liveview.

IQ: a half stop better than the 70D

Burst rate: 10fps

Video: POSSIBLY 4K, but certainly 1080 at 60hz...

Audio: A headphone jack and decent controls/monitoring through touchscreen.

Megapixels: 24

ISO range: 100-25,600 with 51,200 extended mode

Touchscreen and WiFi

That said, I have a perfect prediction record...... Wrong every time


----------



## Bob Howland (May 23, 2014)

Arkarch said:


> Awhile back I might have been more excited. I have the 7D and 5Dm3 pair - however current needs really have me looking for a second FF.
> 
> Most of my work these days is Landscape and Motorsports. Yes, an odd mix but I enjoy the different work and thought processes.
> 
> ...



Why the 300 f/2.8 II and not the 200-400? I have the previous generation 300 f/2.8 IS and really don't like taking the lens off to put on or take off a TC. I also have a 7D and 5D3 but think it's an excellent pairing.


----------



## procentje20 (May 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > weixing said:
> ...



Maybe they will dream up some nifty way to switch from evf to pentamirror and we will see both in one camera. Making it awesome awesomeness all around.


----------



## 2n10 (May 23, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> weixing said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think 7DII will have an evf... if so, I think a lot of wildlife photographer will be disappointed as a lot of wildlife photographer use the viewfinder a lot even when not taking photo and most of them won't be happy if they need to bring a lots of batteries.
> ...



So, so true.


----------



## AvTvM (May 23, 2014)

7D II: main improvements needed
* Servo-AF performance ... totally agree with Marauder:


> The main thing it NEEDS is superior Servo tracking of moving targets,


 ... "5D III plus further improved DPAF"
* Sensor/IQ ... has to be on par with upcoming Nikon D7200/9300 -> that means 24 MP, +1.5 EV better DR and no banding, especially at base ISO, +2 EV hi-ISO noise performance (compared to 7D)
* Speed/Performance -> 10 fps + large buffer
* fully electronic, noise and vibration-free shutter, X-Sync to at least 1/1000s 
* RT-flash commander built-in (in addition to pop-up flash / optical master)
* WIFI + fully functional EOS remote App
* GPS -> built-in or as a really tiny external "wart", fully functional
* "reasonable price tag" ... around USD 2000, preferably below

That would make it a worthwhile upgrade from my 7D .. for me. 

btw ... 7D II will definitely NOT come as a MILC and NOT have an APS-H sensor


----------



## NancyP (May 23, 2014)

Yep, the 7D2 will have the same fate as the 6D - lots of disparagement at first, then, the actual users stand up and say "this fits perfectly with how I shoot". 

For those who shoot action subject with a hand-held camera, there will never be anything more ergonomic than direct vision through a viewfinder. The camera is steadied against the face, and the camera moves as a unit with the head and shoulders. IS for shooting birds in flight is superfluous - listen to the many happy users of the 400mm f/5.6L (including myself). It takes practice to learn to pan smoothly, but once you have the knack, it is very straightforward (yay, cerebellum!). Think about the difference between shooting a rifle at a target and shooting a video game target with a controller.

The limitation of traditional DSLRs in action photography is the mirror apparatus, which has to be down to see through the viewfinder, then up to take the shot. I have not tried the fixed translucent mirror of Sony A series DSLRs, which in theory should be great for tracking action due to the higher frame rate possible. The issue then becomes AF speed and accuracy, and availability of supertelephoto lenses, the strength of CaNikon and weakness (at least lens-wise) of Sony A DSLRs.

I do so hope that Canon has paid attention to the super-speed advances in cards (CFast) and has streamlined the ADC and other upfront basic RAW file formatting so that the camera can have a buffer of 30 RAW shots / 3 seconds at top speed.


----------



## CANONisOK (May 23, 2014)

Bob Howland said:


> Why the 300 f/2.8 II and not the 200-400? I have the previous generation 300 f/2.8 IS and really don't like taking the lens off to put on or take off a TC. I also have a 7D and 5D3 but think it's an excellent pairing.


At the risk of sounding glib by answering the question for Arkarch... I can think of 4,500 reasons why the 300mm f/2.8 ii and not the 200-400mm.


----------



## tron (May 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Rowbear said:
> 
> 
> > How about a return to the APS-H size sensor for the 7D Mk II ?
> ...


I agree that it is not going to happen but, I cannot see it as completely wrong!
I mean it depends on the target group it is meant for. if it is meant for the action photographers that need reach, speed and low light IQ on a budget at the same time then it would make sense.

Don't get me wrong, I DO NOT BELIEVE it will be APS-H but, I believe it would make some sense for the above target group. Unless Canon had been extremelly busy the last one or two years, they will not have improved their sensors a lot so the only way to compete with Nikon would be to increase the pixel size. In addition, I do not believe that fast action/nature photographers use EF-S lenses.

The reason I do not believe it will be an APS-H body is not so much the EF-S lens compatibility (this compatibility exists for many other cameras anyway) but mostly so as not to compete with 1Dx and Fast Big White lenses.


----------



## Khufu (May 23, 2014)

Considering what the 70D is relative to the 60D and 7D; I really think this may be the "New-School", Professional Crop-1D...

Built in grip for the faster battery drain for faster autofocus, a la 1DX and USM-Ls, won't be crippled to be slower than the 1DX as some suggest, simply because this could be the new pro camera with crop/reach and greater pixel density, excessive processing capabilities,... hell, maybe they've figured out EF-S compatibility and this'll be both the high-MP FF AND Crop camera we've been lead to expect 

I'm really expecting some non-uniform changes, it's been hinted at... Not heard anyone mention the built in grip thing in a while - what's everyone's thoughts on that these days? Faster autofocus from more ampage/voltage/something, right?!


----------



## Dylan777 (May 23, 2014)

candyman said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > interested to see what 7D II has to offer..... :
> ...



Just for the record, I DO NOT have G.A.S....... ;D I talked myself out of 600mm: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19923.120

1D X would be a dream camera for many us(including myself). If I can talk myself into selling A7r + FE 55mm, then 1D X is within reach..... : 

Regardless how fast 7D II might be, I highly doubt I would add crop sensor to my kit. Anyways, still want to see the specs


----------



## luckydude (May 23, 2014)

jrista said:


> There is also the very strong likelihood it will get dual memory cards (I TRULY hope for dual CF/CFast2, but I suspect the 7D II will be gimped just like the 5D III with a CF and SD slot...in which case the feature is largely useless.)



Why is two different kinds of cards "useless"? I'm not a pro, so maybe I'm missing something, but I kind of like the two different cards, shoot jpg to one and raw to the other.


----------



## tron (May 23, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...


Well, there is no such thing as : "I DO NOT have G.A.S". It is "I DO NOT have G.A.S *NOW*!" ;D


----------



## dadgummit (May 23, 2014)

luckydude said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > There is also the very strong likelihood it will get dual memory cards (I TRULY hope for dual CF/CFast2, but I suspect the 7D II will be gimped just like the 5D III with a CF and SD slot...in which case the feature is largely useless.)
> ...



It is only useless if the SD slot is not capable of actually using high speed cards. Unfortunately the 5d3 cannot take advantage of good sd cards.


----------



## Dylan777 (May 23, 2014)

tron said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > candyman said:
> ...



LOL.......... ;D

Some of you know me better than I know myself


----------



## candyman (May 23, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...




Oh yeah, the specs of 7D MKII have my interest as well. I used to own the 7D and did many pictures. But....I so much love the IQ of my 5D MK III (and 6D) regardless that you will find more things to prove on that one.
Very curious how much they will improve the IQ of the 7D MKII. Maybe, just maybe to trade the 6D for the 7D MKII if IQ is acceptable (my standards/wishes)


Ha, that 600....I still wish for a 300 f/2.8 II but for now I talked myself out of it. Instead spent some money on the 50ART, 35f/2 IS and the 16-35 f/4 IS (ordered it)...guess you can't runaway from GAS


----------



## Rienzphotoz (May 23, 2014)

For me it's a little too late ... I couldn't wait for the 7D MK II, so I got the 5D MK III and don't really see myself wanting to buy the 7D MK II - unless it has some mind blowing technology.


----------



## pierlux (May 23, 2014)

pwp said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed. After 5 years it has to be something exciting. The same has happened with the 1Ds3/1D4 to 1Dx and 5D2 to 5D3 transitions, both noteworthy improvements. A 5-year interval between releases was a loooong time even during the film age.
> ...



Exactly. Electro Optical System was already a mature tech in the '90, electronics (exposure, autofocus) were widely adopted by practically all camera manufacturers and implemented on all high-end models, so the lifespan of cameras settled around 5 - 6 years which, at that time (i.e. no canonrumors.com :), seemed to me even longer than today. Then digital kicked in around the beginning of the millennium and R&D on film cameras stopped, so there's no real significance to make a lifespan comparison with cameras that have not been, and presumably will never be, upgraded or replaced.



pwp said:


> As the dust has settled after the initial decade of the digital revolution, we'll continue to see just incremental improvements and longer lives between updates. Personally I find this both refreshing and irrationally irritating.



How true!!! I really like your last sentence a lot because it perfectly defines how I feel, I couldn't express myself better. "Irrationally irritating": pwp, you're a poet. To me, though, refreshing and reassuring feelings overrule the irritating uncomfortable sensation: when I'm going to lighten my wallet on expensive gear, knowing it's going to last longer it's sort of consolatory.

Back in 2007, talking with a pro, I told him I was waiting for the release 5Dmark2 before upgrading to FF and that one would have been my camera for ten years: never really believed in what I had said then, but time has passed and, since I have skipped the mk3 and my next purchase will most likely be the 7D2, my prediction is probably going to come true.


----------



## Botts (May 23, 2014)

Canon 14-24 said:


> If I recall, the main selling point of the 7D when it was released was it's superior redesigned AF system and FPS over the XXD. Here was a solution to those in the prosumer segment that couldn't afford a 1D series to afford a better AF system and were complaining about the old 9 point AF system. It was definitely a more action/sports/wildlife kinda camera. Right now, I would say Canon's AF offerings are on-par - so really is a 7d mark II even needed?



5D3 AF would be a huge increase. Likewise 3-4 extra FPS would be game changing for those who need the speed.

I'd also be happy if Canon pulled a move like Sony did with the A7s and dropped the sensor resolution, but gave amazing low light ability. The ability to take a useful shot at 6400+ ISO would greatly enable action shooters. The 500L is a bright, constant f/4, but that still isn't always fast enough and high ISO performance would greatly enhance it's usability to freeze motion.

With my 6D, I notice every day how much slower it is in FPS and AF than my 7D. The low light performance is stellar though.


----------



## Gino (May 23, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



Dylan, get a 1DX and you won't regret it! 

I tried talking myself out of buying a 1DX for about 6 months, but I finally bought a 1DX about a month ago, and I'm loving it! 

Yeah, the 1DX is big and heavy, but it's like driving a Porsche...there is no substitute! Plus, the files are so much easier to work with in Lightroom...I don't see the banding/color noise in the shadows, like I do with my 5dMkIII.


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## Viggo (May 23, 2014)

"Talk myself OUT of it" ?? I. Don't. Understand? Don't think I have ever convinced myself to not buy something, it's sounds way out of my league to achieve. It's best not to try I think.. ;D


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## mrsfotografie (May 23, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> An open question for me is, what full-frame camera will have essentially the 7D II's technology?
> 
> I see two options:
> 
> ...



Honestly, the 5DMkIII is a full frame 7D as far as the body style is concerned.


----------



## mrsfotografie (May 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Rowbear said:
> 
> 
> > How about a return to the APS-H size sensor for the 7D Mk II ?
> ...



APS-C in DSLR's will stay as long as it offers the reduction in cost, lens size and weight. Until it is killed off by the mirrorless camera's of course which I think _could_ happen because mirrorless is the realm of compactness and portability. To me, APS-C in DSLR's is dead anyway and I can't see any reason to go 'back' to that format for my personal needs.


----------



## unfocused (May 24, 2014)

mrsfotografie said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Rowbear said:
> ...



Here we go again. Same old, same old. Two different formats. Two different purposes. Plenty of room in the market for both of them. Predicting that APS-C, which dominates the market by far, is going to die out is just delusional. 

People just don't get it. Canon is following the two-camera strategy. With the enthusiast market becoming saturated, the future lies in convincing everyone that they need two bodies: one full frame and one APS-C. Owners of the 5DIII can say they won't want or need a 7DII, but just wait. We'll all succumb eventually. Resistance to Canon's superior marketing mind is futile.


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## ajfotofilmagem (May 24, 2014)

I know I'm not the majority here, but I would like a 7D mark II that is truly a MINI 1DX. To me this means: 

16 megapixel (I do not need more). 
10 frames per second (could be 9). 
ISO 3200 as clean as 1DX in 6400 (the most important). 
Weight lighter than 1.2 kg (including grip and 2 battery). 
Autofocus as good as 5D mark III. 
Two card slots.


----------



## jrista (May 24, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> ISO 3200 as clean as 1DX in 6400 (the most important).



Not gonna happen. Won't even come remotely close. The biggest difference for full-frame images is that the 1D X has a larger FRAME (the larger pixels are irrelevant). Total sensor area is the biggest factor that supports better high ISO performance on F cameras. 

The 7D II would need a multitude of significant improvements in multiple areas to come within a literal 1-stop noise performance of the 1D X. The most important of which would be doubling Q.E., and there is just no way that would happen. Even the highest end, high grade CCD sensors for astrophotography, including those from Sony, only reach around 77-82%. There are maybe one or two $10,000 sensors that reach 90% Q.E.

I think ISO 3200 on the 7D II will certainly look better than it does on the 7D, and hopefully better than on the 70D, but it won't ever look as good as the 6D, 5D III, 1D X, or any subsequent FF cameras. In terms of area, an APS-C sensor has 2.6x less than an FF sensor. Throw in increased losses in light-sensitive area to a greater amount of wiring and logic transistors (due to smaller pixels), and the difference is even greater, which means there will always be more than a 1-stop difference in noise, likely more along the lines of a 1 1/2 stop or more difference.


----------



## sanj (May 24, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> Canon 14-24 said:
> 
> 
> > If I recall, the main selling point of the 7D when it was released was it's superior redesigned AF system and FPS over the XXD. Here was a solution to those in the prosumer segment that couldn't afford a 1D series to afford a better AF system and were complaining about the old 9 point AF system. It was definitely a more action/sports/wildlife kinda camera. Right now, I would say Canon's AF offerings are on-par - so really is a 7d mark II even needed?
> ...



I identify with your fears.


----------



## Dylan777 (May 24, 2014)

Gino said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > tron said:
> ...



Thanks Gino for the encouragement.

I'll keep an eye on 1D X special sale from now on. If the price is right, I guess anything can happen 

Wonder...what is the lowest price on 1D X, US model?


----------



## ayanamiadolf (May 24, 2014)

I mainly do Portrait shooting

I have a 7D but I currently use my dad's 70D because its incredibly excellent DPAF with face detection. I never get out of focus no matter how large the aperture is despite len issue. I don't think anyone can do that with viewfinder despite speed unless you are some kind of professional photographer. 

Of cause I am waiting for the 7D2. If I have to say any function that I want most with the 7D2, I would like to have a hybrid viewfinder which can lunch DPAF, with face detection of cause. Sometimes it is difficult to focus only using the display.And with a higher pixel cmos and Digic 6 is enough for me.


----------



## Valvebounce (May 24, 2014)

Hi Sporgon.
Not sure what you meant by gain a proper rear wheel and joystick? The 7D is already equipped with these fine options! 
Or we're you talking about relative to the 70D?
Loose the pop up flash hell I hope not I use mine almost exclusively to drive my 550EX remotely, in fact I feel for you guys with much more expensive FF cameras that require you to purchase an extra quite expensive unit to do this! 

Cheers Graham



Sporgon said:


> I don't want to sound cynical, but I hope the 7DII isn't just a 70D with the 'top end' ergonomics, just as the xxD line had up until the 60 and 70D combined a rebel interface with the larger body.
> 
> A little faster, gain a proper rear wheel + joystick, maybe lose the pop up flash.....


----------



## Sabaki (May 24, 2014)

So I'm using a Canon 500D with it's 9 point AF system and what I'm wondering is, just what does the theorized 45 point AF system mean for my photography?

Scenario: Two photographers with identical ability in every regard, one using the 500D + 400mm f/5.6, the other a 7Dii with the same lens. 
A kingfisher dives from a branch, into the water and returns to the branch 1 second later with a fish. 
Both photographers successfully tracked this series of events from start to finish. 

So we acknowledge the 7Dii will end up with twice as many frames for the shot duration. What I'm trying to understand is, will the more sophisticated AF system of the 7Dii mean that there is a far greater chance that the bird will be in focus on each frame?

I normally track kingfisher size birds for say 2 second but find that maybe 3.5/5 frames on average are out of focus. Will a 7Dii improves this ratio?


----------



## Sporgon (May 24, 2014)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Sporgon.
> Not sure what you meant by gain a proper rear wheel and joystick? The 7D is already equipped with these fine options!
> Or we're you talking about relative to the 70D?
> Loose the pop up flash hell I hope not I use mine almost exclusively to drive my 550EX remotely, in fact I feel for you guys with much more expensive FF cameras that require you to purchase an extra quite expensive unit to do this!
> ...



Hi Valvebounce: you're right, my wording was ambiguous ! I meant from the xxD line. Once the 7D was introduced Canon 'dumbed down' the control interface of the 60D from the 50D. When they did the same control layout on the 70D is was a sure sign that there would be a 7DII of some sort, otherwise there would be no new crop camera design with the 'full' EOS interface. So the slot is there for a top end crop camera to sit above the 70D and (just) below the 6D price wise. 

Regarding the pop up flash, I just wonder if Canon may produce their flagship crop body without one as a marketing differentiation between the 'professional' and 'enthusiast' bodies. Personally I hope it doesn't have one. The pop up flash on my Nikon D200 in 2005 lasted all of a week before it managed to get snapped off !

I think we can guess virtually everything else about the 7DII - with the exception of the sensor. The fact that they have taken so long to produce a replacement, despite the fact that the marketing 'slot' is there, makes me think the delay has been caused by the sensor. 

Whether it will use 'new' processing technology aka the Sony Exmor I don't know, nor do I really care; the sensors in the latest FF camera are simply remarkable for practical photography. If the crop sensor in the 7DII can come close to those then I would be interested in one.


----------



## whothafunk (May 24, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> So I'm using a Canon 500D with it's 9 point AF system and what I'm wondering is, just what does the theorized .... 7D2 ...... mean for my photography?


one with the "7D2" (which we dont know jack sh*t about it yet, like FPS etc) will have not only twice, but up to 3x more photos and probably caught a better moment, with a lot more probability that they will tack sharp and more of them in focus, with (slighty) better IQ in all regards. and probably get the job done and get paid.

it will also cause jizz in your pants when hearing machine gun sound like shutter.


----------



## Valvebounce (May 24, 2014)

Hi Sporgon.
Isn't that what the hot shoe blank plates are for, to stop the flash from deploying accidentally? : ;D
I'm not really in the market for a new body yet, and would probably go FF if I do upgrade, but if I was looking to the 7DII for an upgrade, not being able to remote control my flash could possibly be a deal breaker. But it is always a whole that you buy not just a feature so maybe it will still be good enough to convince me!

Cheers Graham.



Sporgon said:


> Hi Valvebounce:
> 
> Regarding the pop up flash, I just wonder if Canon may produce their flagship crop body without one as a marketing differentiation between the 'professional' and 'enthusiast' bodies. Personally I hope it doesn't have one. The pop up flash on my Nikon D200 in 2005 lasted all of a week before it managed to get snapped off !


----------



## Bennymiata (May 25, 2014)

I hope it will have the dual-pixel technology of the 70D, as I need to do video work as well as stills, and this will end the tiresome manual focussing of my 5D3 and 60D or carrying around of a dedicated video camera.
If it doesn't, I'll buy the 70D and retire the 60D, which has around 75,000 shutter actuations and is getting towards the end of it's reliable life, even though it has never even hiccupped once since I got it.
I do love my 5D3, and use it even more than the 60D, but a good crop camera is very handy at events and with good video autofocus, I can give it to an assistant to take videos with.


----------



## Don Haines (May 25, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> So I'm using a Canon 500D with it's 9 point AF system and what I'm wondering is, just what does the theorized 45 point AF system mean for my photography?
> 
> Scenario: Two photographers with identical ability in every regard, one using the 500D + 400mm f/5.6, the other a 7Dii with the same lens.
> A kingfisher dives from a branch, into the water and returns to the branch 1 second later with a fish.
> ...


Canon has been paying more attention to autofocus than anything else.

It's not something you can put in marketing materials because nobody is going to put in print that their AF misses or the results are not perfectly repeatable, but ALL cameras from ALL manufacturers do it... As time passes and new bodies are released, there are improvements on the accuracy and the repeatability of autofocus. Think of the accuracy of AF as a bell curve. With better algorithms and better AF detectors that curve gets narrower and narrower. Plus, with AFMA, you can calibrate lenses to the particular body so the bell curve for each lens/body combination can be shifted to be centered on the proper focus point. Both of these improve the odds that a shot will be within an acceptable range of perfect autofocus.

What this means is that ANY new body will have improvements over the model that came before it, so yes, a 7D2 will have a better keeper ratio.


----------



## Marsu42 (May 25, 2014)

Bennymiata said:


> I'll buy the 70D and retire the 60D, which has around 75,000 shutter actuations and is getting towards the end of it's reliable life, even though it has never even hiccupped once since I got it.



With 75k shutter cycles your 60d is nowhere near its end of life, my current 60d has more than double and statistics show that this is not a lucky sample but all xxd are rather sturdy. 



Bennymiata said:


> I do love my 5D3, and use it even more than the 60D, but a good crop camera is very handy at events and with good video autofocus, I can give it to an assistant to take videos with.



I don't know how the 70d af actually performs vs. manual focus, the latter is also rather easy using Magic Lantern and focus peaking.


----------



## Sabaki (May 25, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > So I'm using a Canon 500D with it's 9 point AF system and what I'm wondering is, just what does the theorized 45 point AF system mean for my photography?
> ...



Whothafunk and Don Haines, appreciate the comments. Thank you


----------



## justaCanonuser (May 26, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> [list type=decimal]
> [*]The 7DII is based off the 5DIII, and thus the 5DIII is the full-frame 7DII
> 
> [/list]



If this happens I'd really appreciate if the 7D2 would have exactly the same interface as the 5D3. I use both a 5D3 and a 7D since about two years and I still get confused with the magnification buttons after I changed cameras while shooting when I want to chimp and then proceed quickly. This is annoying in particular because Canon's ergonomics are so nicely designed for an easy workflow.


----------



## Tugela (Jun 10, 2014)

Gino said:


> Dylan, get a 1DX and you won't regret it!
> 
> I tried talking myself out of buying a 1DX for about 6 months, but I finally bought a 1DX about a month ago, and I'm loving it!
> 
> Yeah, the 1DX is big and heavy, *but it's like driving a Porsche...there is no substitute!* Plus, the files are so much easier to work with in Lightroom...I don't see the banding/color noise in the shadows, like I do with my 5dMkIII.



Until you drive it into a tree, because the car wasn't designed for city driving


----------



## Tugela (Jun 10, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Sporgon.
> ...



In part it may be the sensor, but more likely the 7D2 will introduce the next generation of processors for Canon. That sort of thing has great potential to delay the launch of a product, since it is complex and has to be working right before release. That is particularly true if they are positioning the 7D2 to compete in the GH4 market space, since current Canon still processors are completely inadequate for that in the new paradigm of 4K video. They would need a new processor designed from the ground up that was capable of allowing the product to be competitive for the next 3-4 years.

IMO that is the main reason the 7D2 has taken so long to arrive. It is not the camera, or the sensor so much as the processor that is delaying it.


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 10, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Gino said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan, get a 1DX and you won't regret it!
> ...



Also, ever try to carry two canoes, 4 people, camping gear, and two weeks food in a Porsche? Get the right tool for the job YOU want to do, not what someone else wants.


----------



## AvTvM (Jun 10, 2014)

Tugela said:


> In part it may be the sensor, but more likely the 7D2 will introduce the next generation of processors for Canon. That sort of thing has great potential to delay the launch of a product, since it is complex and has to be working right before release. That is particularly true if they are positioning the 7D2 to compete in the GH4 market space, since current Canon still processors are completely inadequate for that in the new paradigm of 4K video. They would need a new processor designed from the ground up that was capable of allowing the product to be competitive for the next 3-4 years.
> 
> IMO that is the main reason the 7D2 has taken so long to arrive. It is not the camera, or the sensor so much as the processor that is delaying it.



just one of the compromises introduced by implanting video crap into DSLR stills cams.


----------



## wfmiller (Jun 10, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > In part it may be the sensor, but more likely the 7D2 will introduce the next generation of processors for Canon. That sort of thing has great potential to delay the launch of a product, since it is complex and has to be working right before release. That is particularly true if they are positioning the 7D2 to compete in the GH4 market space, since current Canon still processors are completely inadequate for that in the new paradigm of 4K video. They would need a new processor designed from the ground up that was capable of allowing the product to be competitive for the next 3-4 years.
> ...



That's because it is the "me too" mentality!!


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## Tugela (Jun 10, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > In part it may be the sensor, but more likely the 7D2 will introduce the next generation of processors for Canon. That sort of thing has great potential to delay the launch of a product, since it is complex and has to be working right before release. That is particularly true if they are positioning the 7D2 to compete in the GH4 market space, since current Canon still processors are completely inadequate for that in the new paradigm of 4K video. They would need a new processor designed from the ground up that was capable of allowing the product to be competitive for the next 3-4 years.
> ...



Originally still cameras and video cameras were segmented primarily based on the media storage requirements. That is basically why there are dedicated still and video cameras. As technology developed, the speed and magnitude of storage in small form factors became such that there was no need to have dedicated cameras any more. This started in low end machines, but the trend will continue throughout all cameras up to prosumer level. In the future the only dedicated machines are going to be high end professional cameras. Everything else will be capable of producing high quality video and stills. Dedicated cameras at the low and mid end of the market are virtually dead already. This will be the case in the high end consumer market within the next few years as well. Companies such as Nikon who refuse to embrace this are going to find themselves cornered into a small niche catering to specialized professionals only.

That is where the technology is going. People who cling to dedicated DSLRs are clinging to an obsolete paradigm, since there is no compelling reason that these cameras can't do both. they are embracing the past rather than embracing the future, and all the new creative possibilities it brings. Having sophisticated video capabilities in no way diminishes the still capabilities. There is zero reason not to have both with current technology.


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## AvTvM (Jun 11, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Having sophisticated video capabilities in no way diminishes the still capabilities. There is zero reason not to have both with current technology.



as you pointed out in your previous post, video crap does have detrimenal effects on stills cameras. The whole sensor and imaging pipeline and all the R&D going into it are geared towards delivering moving images rather than delivering the most perfect stills images. It makes a hell of a lot of a difference, whether a sensor is designed to record single still images [even in short bursts at high speed] compared to recording freakin' viedeo for minutes to hours on end. Entirely different development objectives. To get both in one sensor, stills capabilities are being compromised. Same goes for the CPU and the rest of the imaging pipeline and resulting stills IQ. And for the entrie user interface. from unnessary marked-in-red "start video now" hardware buttons [not user assignable to something useful] cluttering my stills cameras to cluttered menus with a lot of video crap in them. All the way to those pesty HDMI-sockets, Mic-In sockets, Mic-holes and speaker holes ... that make wheather-sealing of my stills cameras more difficult and expensive. And maximize those flappy rubber-doors all over the nice and pure magnesium body of my stulls cameras. 

No problem with convergence products. Go, buy a GoPro Hero ... 4k video, lots of fps, small, light, weather-sealed and dirt cheap. You need more video and don't just want to create freakin' youtube videos of how uncle jack giot drunk last night? Then go, buy "a real video camera". Black magic Design 4k camera costs less than a 5D III. So it cannot be about the money. 

But don't stick all that video crap into DSLRs or Mirrorles stills cameras. I don't want it. I don't need it. I hate it.


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## Valvebounce (Jun 11, 2014)

Hi AvTvM. 
Could you stop beating around the bush and just say what you mean! ;D 
Just a thought, but do you think all the sales of stills cameras for video might have increased the production volume therefore reduced the cost per unit so you or perhaps I can afford it? Just a thought, not disagreeing with you about quality of image, wasn't the funny AA filter in the 7D for video? 

Cheers Graham.



AvTvM said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Having sophisticated video capabilities in no way diminishes the still capabilities. There is zero reason not to have both with current technology.
> ...


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## Don Haines (Jun 11, 2014)

The improved processor(s) and high speed memory required for 4K video and DPAF opens up an interesting possibility for the action shooter..... 30fps burst mode in live view....


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## jrista (Jun 11, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> The improved processor(s) and high speed memory required for 4K video and DPAF opens up an interesting possibility for the action shooter..... 30fps burst mode in live view....



Interesting indeed. Here's what's most interesting:

Assuming a 24mp sensor, which has a "full" pixel count of say 27mp (including masked border pixels, inactive calibration pixel rows and columns, etc. all of which DO get read and which ARE included in every RAW image). Also assuming the ADC is 14-bit. Then, for a 3-second burst:

(3 * 30 * 27,000,000 * 14) / 8 = 4,252,500,000 bytes

In one three second burst at 30fps, you generate 4.2GB worth of data!  If you tend to take 3-5 second bursts, and shoot at least a few dozen bursts on any given outing... Well, shit...now those two new 3Tb hard drives I just purchased aren't going to be going very far...and I'm going to need four times as many long-term backup and storage bluray disc for permanent backups...and my import/review/cull time is going to go through the roof...

 Be careful what you wish for...


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## Don Haines (Jun 11, 2014)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > The improved processor(s) and high speed memory required for 4K video and DPAF opens up an interesting possibility for the action shooter..... 30fps burst mode in live view....
> ...


 I know 
Storage demands are constantly going up.... I remember buying a hard drive for work $9995 for 10Mbytes and my first digital camera shot 640x400 with 8 bit color... Todays camera storage requirements were unthinkable back then.... two days ago I shot a time lapse on a GoPro that sucked back 48GBytes...


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## jrista (Jun 11, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



The crazy thing is that storage space doesn't seem to be advancing as quickly as it use to anymore. It was quite a number of years ago that we hit 2Tb....then a few years ago that we hit 3Tb, and now only recently have 4Tb drives have begun to become "affordable" (the ones with TERRIBLE access times are still around $150, and the ones with faster access times are still in the $220-$300 range). There are less than a handful of 6Tb drives on the market, and only LaCie seems to be selling 5Tb hard drives...both of which are at lest $300 a pop if not considerably more expensive. 

While larger hard drives, all built with the same semi-reliable technology that has been plaguing computer users for decades, trickle slowly onto the market, our data use needs are RAPIDLY growing. As video, especially 4k video, becomes more accessible, I think 48Gb worth of video files is only the beginning!  And as still image sizes skyrocket to 40, 50, 70 megapixels and beyond... Yeesh...I shudder to think about the costs of storing it all. Cloud services aren't even remotely "there" yet when it comes to space/dollar, and then you have to deal with transferring tens or hundreds of gigs across the wire.


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## Viggo (Jun 12, 2014)

Is there any reason to use a non-gripped body aka non 1dx to shoot the World Cup Opening match other than testing a 7d2? I saw one tonight with blacked out logo's.


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## Valvebounce (Jun 12, 2014)

Hi Viggo. 
So what you are asking is were you the first to spot the 7D II? ;D

Cheers Graham.



Viggo said:


> Is there any reason to use a non-gripped body aka non 1dx to shoot the World Cup Opening match other than testing a 7d2? I saw one tonight with blacked out logo's.


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## Viggo (Jun 12, 2014)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Viggo.
> So what you are asking is were you the first to spot the 7D II? ;D
> 
> Cheers Graham.
> ...



I suspect a few others are also watching the World Cup tonight, lol


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 13, 2014)

I'm pretty sure I saw 7D Mark ii in the photo below. It is the one-hundred-thirty-one person in the tenth row. You also saw?


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## NancyP (Jun 13, 2014)

Who needs a 24 Mp sensor in an APS-C action camera? 18 Mp is just fine. I would rather have fewer MP and fast throughput than >=24 Mp and leisurely throughput. If I want to watch my files s-l-o-w-l-y write, I can shoot with the Sigma DP#M camera.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 13, 2014)

NancyP said:


> Who needs a 24 Mp sensor in an APS-C action camera? 18 Mp is just fine. I would rather have fewer MP and fast throughput than >=24 Mp and leisurely throughput. If I want to watch my files s-l-o-w-l-y write, I can shoot with the Sigma DP#M camera.


It is. I keep looking for someone to convince me that 7D Mark ii need more megapicles than 1Dx. :


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jun 13, 2014)

I have also just watched the opening match between Brazil & Croatia, and for the duration of the match I have seen several times a non-gripped body attached to a Canon long white supertele, there appears to be several photographers with that setup scattered around the stadium. That is mildly interesting to me since I am used to seeing mostly 1-series bodies or (less commonly) the equivalent Nikon ones being used for matches at this level. I really don't think pros sent by wire agencies, big international newspapers and magazines to cover this event would be using 5D3s or, worse, 7Ds. At the very least they should be using a grip for better balance while using those superteles on these smaller bodies, if that's what they have to use, which I doubt.


OT: As for the match itself, I think that Jap referee erred in giving that very soft penalty that led to the 2nd Brazilian goal, that Brazilian player was already falling down even before he got a mild touch from the opposing Croat player. Ruined the game for me. I must say Brazil was unimpressive, I really expect better from the hosts and one of the favorites. They don't seem to be good at keeping possession or defense. I think they would get exposed by a better attacking team than Croatia. Croatia played better than I expected, I actually wanted them to win or at least get a draw, they deserved that at least.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 13, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > Who needs a 24 Mp sensor in an APS-C action camera? 18 Mp is just fine. I would rather have fewer MP and fast throughput than >=24 Mp and leisurely throughput. If I want to watch my files s-l-o-w-l-y write, I can shoot with the Sigma DP#M camera.
> ...



My primary use for this camera is reach when focal length limited, and for that, the more pixels the better.

Actually, I'd rather have more pixels in a crop body than in a full-frame. I'm usually able to properly frame when using full frame, I use the crop body when I can't. When I can properly frame the 13MP of my 5D is fine. When I can't, sometimes I'm cropping like crazy and the more pixels the better. And that is nearly always with the crop bodies.


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## gjones5252 (Jun 13, 2014)

Yeah i was watching the press box about as much as the game, always looking for a sign of a 7d. As far as the game Croatia deserved the win based on their play. Got a little rough and ugly at times but that was both sides. Seems like the ref may not get another game just because of that one call in the penalty box. 



Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> I have also just watched the opening match between Brazil & Croatia, and for the duration of the match I have seen several times a non-gripped body attached to a Canon long white supertele, there appears to be several photographers with that setup scattered around the stadium. That is mildly interesting to me since I am used to seeing mostly 1-series bodies or (less commonly) the equivalent Nikon ones being used for matches at this level. I really don't think pros sent by wire agencies, big international newspapers and magazines to cover this event would be using 5D3s or, worse, 7Ds. At the very least they should be using a grip for better balance while using those superteles on these smaller bodies, if that's what they have to use, which I doubt.
> 
> 
> OT: As for the match itself, I think that Jap referee erred in giving that very soft penalty that led to the 2nd Brazilian goal, that Brazilian player was already falling down even before he got a mild touch from the opposing Croat player. Ruined the game for me. I must say Brazil was unimpressive, I really expect better from the hosts and one of the favorites. They don't seem to be good at keeping possession or defense. I think they would get exposed by a better attacking team than Croatia. Croatia played better than I expected, I actually wanted them to win or at least get a draw, they deserved that at least.


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## Maximilian (Jun 13, 2014)

gjones5252 said:


> ... looking for a sign of a 7d.


Maybe you better should be looking for the new 100-400. It should be easier to spot and then there is an 70 - 90 % chance that a 7D2 is attached to the rear end of that one...


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## AlanF (Jun 13, 2014)

Maximilian said:


> gjones5252 said:
> 
> 
> > ... looking for a sign of a 7d.
> ...



I am looking to see England win the World Cup in Brazil as it is more likely than seeing a 100-400II on a 7DII.


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## Maximilian (Jun 13, 2014)

AlanF said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > gjones5252 said:
> ...


Honestly I don't think so and the opposite is more likely, but maybe the Three Lions will show us more than expected.


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## Tugela (Jun 16, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Having sophisticated video capabilities in no way diminishes the still capabilities. There is zero reason not to have both with current technology.
> ...



You overlook the fact that the compromises you talk about within the camera are largely artificial or a function of relatively primitive processors being used. Processor design is advancing much faster than any other component in the system, so that would not be an issue in the future. We already have cameras that can do both functions well, and that trend is going to continue, with absolute certainty in the consumer market. Dedicated cameras in the future will be pretty much the preserve of high end professionals only, where ergonomics will be the dominant criteria.

The only interface ports a video camera "needs" is its data transfer port and a hot shoe, both things you find on still cameras anyway. So how is this "interfering" with weather sealing when those ports have to be there anyway? A video camera needs a battery and preferably some sort of internal storage. Well, so does a stills camera.

When you talk about a dedicated professional video camera, yes, those have all sorts of extra interface connections, but the consumer market does not need those. For them, the EXACT SAME connections than are on a still camera are just as good for a video camera.


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## Tugela (Jun 16, 2014)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



That would be because the need for more storage isn't there for most consumers. And in any case, even if the storage per drive has slowed down, prices have come down a lot as well. The number of SATA ports and drive cages in computers has steadily increased, so for power users who for whatever reason need massive storage (I have two 8x3TB arrays on my network, for example) it is relatively simple to create it.


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## jrista (Jun 16, 2014)

Tugela said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Sorry, but when you start creating GIGS of data PER SECOND, even your RAID arrays are not going to suffice. I have I have an 8TB NAS on my own network, however with my shooting patterns, at 30fps, I would create 8TB worth of images in a mere 5643 seconds, which amounts to 94 minutes of shooting. *Eight TERRABYTES* of data in a _mere hour and a half_. That is just ludicrous. The cost of storage hasn't come down even remotely fast nor significantly enough to justify cameras with frame rates of 30fps or higher. These days, at 8fps/18mp or 6fps/22.3mp, I can fill four 16GB CF cards in a couple/few of hours on a burst-heavy day (i.e. lots of flight or other action.) That's 64Gb in an outing. That's already a lot of data, and even after culling the guaranteed bad frames (missfocuses, motion blurred, clipped highlights, etc.), that alone is still a fairly significant storage footprint.

Plus, this is all JUST the storage impact. I don't think people realize the overall impact of having ultra high frame rates like that. There is "cost" everywhere...it requires significantly more time to import all your data (even over USB 3.0), it takes significantly more time to organize it, it takes significantly more time to cull it, etc. There is a reasonable point where diminishing returns in frame rate become negative returns in your overall efficiency as a photographer. I believe 30fps is well over that point, and anything faster....well, then your just plain insane!


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## Don Haines (Jun 16, 2014)

jrista said:


> Sorry, but when you start creating GIGS of data PER SECOND, even your RAID arrays are not going to suffice. I have I have an 8TB NAS on my own network, however with my shooting patterns, at 30fps, I would create 8TB worth of images in a mere 5643 seconds, which amounts to 94 minutes of shooting. *Eight TERRABYTES* of data in a _mere hour and a half_. That is just ludicrous. The cost of storage hasn't come down even remotely fast nor significantly enough to justify cameras with frame rates of 30fps or higher. These days, at 8fps/18mp or 6fps/22.3mp, I can fill four 16GB CF cards in a couple/few of hours on a burst-heavy day (i.e. lots of flight or other action.) That's 64Gb in an outing. That's already a lot of data, and even after culling the guaranteed bad frames (missfocuses, motion blurred, clipped highlights, etc.), that alone is still a fairly significant storage footprint.
> 
> Plus, this is all JUST the storage impact. I don't think people realize the overall impact of having ultra high frame rates like that. There is "cost" everywhere...it requires significantly more time to import all your data (even over USB 3.0), it takes significantly more time to organize it, it takes significantly more time to cull it, etc. There is a reasonable point where diminishing returns in frame rate become negative returns in your overall efficiency as a photographer. I believe 30fps is well over that point, and anything faster....well, then your just plain insane!


Lots of agreement from me on how fast you can fill hard drives.... I just burned through 270GB in a week. I was playing with time lapse on a GoPro and a 64GB card was insufficient for a day, and that was at the reduced image size...


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 17, 2014)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Yeah I really wish some of that next generation tech had come to fruition already. We need ultra fast many TB reliable, safe storage, yesterday!


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## dgatwood (Jun 17, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > NancyP said:
> ...



I want the reverse, for the same reason. If I could get a full-frame body with the same pixel density as a crop body, I wouldn't need to carry around a crop body.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 17, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> If I could get a full-frame body with the same pixel density as a crop body, I wouldn't need to carry around a crop body.



... at least not when the ff camera has a software crop mode so you don't end up with huge raw files with junk all around the subject if you're focal length limited.


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## jrista (Jun 18, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > The crazy thing is that storage space doesn't seem to be advancing as quickly as it use to anymore. It was quite a number of years ago that we hit 2Tb....then a few years ago that we hit 3Tb, and now only recently have 4Tb drives have begun to become "affordable" (the ones with TERRIBLE access times are still around $150, and the ones with faster access times are still in the $220-$300 range). There are less than a handful of 6Tb drives on the market, and only LaCie seems to be selling 5Tb hard drives...both of which are at lest $300 a pop if not considerably more expensive.
> ...



Aye! I really wish multi-TB sized 10 million hour MTBF SSDs would finally hit the streets. I picked up a 500Gb SSD recently for $200, which was a STEAL...but it was still $200...and for only 500Gb. :\

Really can't wait until I have three or four terrabytes of SSD drive space zipping along at 600Mbit per second or more.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 18, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > ajfotofilmagem said:
> ...



That would be true as well, except for the cost of making the bigger mirror and shutter (and data pipeline) just as fast.

But if I want 32MP in a crop body, that's 82MP in full-frame. In-camera crop would help, if I can select it quickly and easy, and ideally while shooting.

I wish Canon would adopt DNG so we could have those scene-referenced lossy-compressed pseudo-raw files.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



for $150 

or some sort of holographic memory, 500TB for $50 ;D


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Three years ago i bought a vertex III 240gb SSD. It cost me £400 and was state of the art. Now I can buy a 500gb Samsung (a better drive) for less than £300, so the data capacity has doubled and the price has come down a lot.


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