# Canon will introduce new tilt-shift lenses with a high-megapixel camera [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 5, 2021)

> I have reported on the coming tilt-shift lenses for the RF mount, these are apparently going to be the first tilt-shift lenses with autofocus.
> I have been told that Canon plans to introduce two new autofocus tilt-shift lenses alongside a high-megapixel camera. The announcement timeframe for such a camera is still unknown, but the source claims the first half of 2022 is extremely likely and that these lenses were to come in late 2021.
> The two rumored autofocus tilt-shift lenses from Canon will be the Canon TS-R 14mm f/4L and Canon TS-R 24mm f/3.5L.
> The high-megapixel RF mount camera has been rumored for quite some time as it’s an obvious step Canon needs to make. The roadmap for EOS R bodies is far less known than that of the RF mount lenses we expect to see announced in the next year or two.
> More to come…



Continue reading...


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## roby17269 (May 5, 2021)

With these 2 plus the rumored 130/5 f/1.4 (?) and the upcoming 100 macro (pre-ordered) I will be able to migrate my whole Canon lens stable to RF.

I assume I'll have to start considering selling a kidney as someone has mentioned 

Excited for the new offerings (when they will materialize!)... TS lenses with AF who would have thought? Although to be fair the MF aids of my R5 have breathed new live in my EF TS lenses.

Mixed feelings as EF lenses have accompanied me for pretty much all of my photographic life and have helped me create a lot of images I cherish... but I've never been really attached to any of my toys, so in with the new!


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## amorse (May 5, 2021)

Makes sense to announce TS lenses with the high megapixel camera. I'd assume you'd need them to get the full resolution and detail a high resolution sensor is capable of. I'm still very curious to see how the body comes together - very interested!


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## cgc (May 5, 2021)

Shouldn't they be called *TS-RF*?
It seems that the reason for the TS-E name (instead of TS-EF) was the "special" feature of lacking autofocus.

Another nomenclature could be including the feature in the regular name (e.g. Canon RF 14mm f/4L *TS* USM)


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## ColinJR (May 5, 2021)

Yeah but… _when? _I have been waiting for a high res camera and TS lenses ever since the announcement of the R. Maybe I need Mr. Miyagi to teach me some patience…


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## davidcl0nel (May 5, 2021)

>TS lenses with AF who would have thought? 

With the focus system in an DSLR it was impossible. Event the light meter was completely wrong if shifted.
With the contrast focus on the sensor this should be possible.

Maybe even tilt is possible. Imagine on rectangle with EyeAF for focus, and then you slightly tilt the lens and 2 rectangles will appear. The focus plane is tilted and both eyes are in focus. This would be a game changer and a 90mm TS (like the newer one) would even a very great help for people photography. Not only architecture or macro...


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## stevelee (May 5, 2021)

It will be interesting to see how autofocus would work on a seriously tilted lens. With the current 24mm and 17mm, I used the manual focus to get something focused, and then adjusted the tilt to get everything else I wanted in focus. If you motorized the tilt and had serious computing power in the camera, that could work. Or at the other extreme, it might just work as autofocus in situations with little or no tilt, just so they could say it was autofocus for advertising purposes.

Maybe some time this will bring the TS-E models down to my price range.


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## unfocused (May 5, 2021)

I'm happy for those who want these lenses. I just wish Canon would actually make the lenses they have already released. I'm getting a little tired of "on backorder," "more coming soon," and "released in limited quantity."


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2021)

Excited for a 14mm TS lens. I almost never shoot my TS-E lenses handheld, so honestly the AF will be nice to have but really not required. Probably would not replace my TS-E 24L II, but would be tempted to replace my TS-E 17L with a TS-R 14L.


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## keithcooper (May 5, 2021)

AF will be interesting, as well as how they implement the interface to control it with tilt.

In teaching people the use of tilt and shift, the concept consistently most difficult for even experienced photographers to 'get' is that with tilt the distance scale no longer has a defined meaning with respect to distances. Whereas with shift, you can focus and then add shift -or the other way round. The positioning of the tilted focus plane is dependent on both tilt angle and the setting of the focus ring together. This interaction seems more conceptually difficult, leading to people just randomly changing tilt after focusing or adding tilt and focusing to 'see what happens' Whilst it can work, there is all too often no deeper understanding, making it difficult to repeat effects or apply them consistently in different settings.

_Two RF T/S lenses and a body... not cheap. I need more paying work and more people to buy my tilt/shift book ;-)_


This from a 2019 patent application



from http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-ef-lenses-rumours-and-news/


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## WillT (May 5, 2021)

Always happy to see another tilt-shift lense


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## john1970 (May 5, 2021)

I am interested in buying a T/S lens for the RF mount, but am undecided on which focal length although I am leaning towards the 24 mm focal length.


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## Fischer (May 5, 2021)

Let's have that High MPIX R now please. I'll even be happy to wait longer for the RF 300mm f/2.8. Apart from that I see no logical reason a high MPIX body should go together with a tilt-shift lens.


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## jam05 (May 5, 2021)

unfocused said:


> I'm happy for those who want these lenses. I just wish Canon would actually make the lenses they have already released. I'm getting a little tired of "on backorder," "more coming soon," and "released in limited quantity."


Tell that to your favorite large vendor that doesn't want to overstock camera equipment that very few people purchase. The new norm. Seller vs wholesale buyer. The large vendors are not willing to purchase niche items in huge quantities and they sit in warehouses after the initial 3 months. After the initial preorders sales numbers level off to relatively nothing. Alternative, purchase from your local and small retailer.


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## privatebydesign (May 5, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Tell that to your favorite vendor that doesn't want to overstock camera equipment that very few people purchase. New norm. Seller vs Buyer. The vendor is not willing to purchase niche items in huge quantities. After the initial preorders sales number level off.


Generally that isn’t how vendor stocking works. Distributors, which in this case is the importer and manufacturer, offer terms. The retailer doesn’t buy the item and then put it on their shelf.


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## melgross (May 5, 2021)

I wonder why they will have them coming out with a high Rez camera, whatever that will be? Isn’t 45MP enough for these? They have a wider field of view, you can’t use all the rez in one photo.

somehow it seems by the announcement that these will have crazy high Rez if they are intro’d with a high Rez body. Unless the intro together is just coincidence, if these have been delayed for some reason, for example. We know that’s been happening.


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## Del Paso (May 5, 2021)

Don't need AF for tilt or shift.
Yet, a 14mm TS can also be used like any UWA lens, so AF makes sense. I'm eagerly waiting for this one!
Certainly much sharper (corners) than the EF 17mm TSE.


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## Del Paso (May 5, 2021)

keithcooper said:


> AF will be interesting, as well as how they implement the interface to control it with tilt.
> 
> In teaching people the use of tilt and shift, the concept consistently most difficult for even experienced photographers to 'get' is that with tilt the distance scale no longer has a defined meaning with respect to distances. Whereas with shift, you can focus and then add shift -or the other way round. The positioning of the tilted focus plane is dependent on both tilt angle and the setting of the focus ring together. This interaction seems more conceptually difficult, leading to people just randomly changing tilt after focusing or adding tilt and focusing to 'see what happens' Whilst it can work, there is all too often no deeper understanding, making it difficult to repeat effects or apply them consistently in different settings.
> 
> ...


What about printing more?
Amazon can't deliver mine before June 9th...
If you want more quids, just deliver


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2021)

melgross said:


> Isn’t 45MP enough for these? They have a wider field of view, you can’t use all the rez in one photo.


Huh? Sorry, that statement makes no sense to me.


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## keithcooper (May 5, 2021)

Del Paso said:


> What about printing more?
> Amazon can't deliver mine before June 9th...
> If you want more quids, just deliver


Ah, I wish... that would be the publishers.
The last involvement I had with the book was checking proofs last year. 
The US launch of the book was delayed quite a bit.


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## privatebydesign (May 5, 2021)

keithcooper said:


> Ah, I wish... that would be the publishers.
> The last involvement I had with the book was checking proofs last year.
> The US launch of the book was delayed quite a bit.


I did buy my printer, the Pro-2000, and few other bits and pieces through your affiliate links so I’m trying!


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## GMCPhotographics (May 5, 2021)

Del Paso said:


> Don't need AF for tilt or shift.
> Yet, a 14mm TS can also be used like any UWA lens, so AF makes sense. I'm eagerly waiting for this one!
> Certainly much sharper (corners) than the EF 17mm TSE.


I don't agree. Using a tripod...the first thing you do with a shift movement is compose, meter (in Manual) and then focus. Then you shift the font element. The plane of focus stays the same. With tilt, you focus...then tilt, then re-focus and often then tilt a bit more and re-focus until your OCD gets a complete work out. 
I've never had any issues with the corner sharpness of a TS-e 17L unshifted and it's not a lens that generally gets used wide open when shifted. It's designed for architecture and that generally needs stopping down for DOF.


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I've never had any issues with the corner sharpness of a TS-e 17L unshifted


Nope, because unshifted the corners are so far from the image circle border that for any non-TS lens we'd call them mid-frame.


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## Famateur (May 5, 2021)

ColinJR said:


> Yeah but… _when? _I have been waiting for a high res camera and TS lenses ever since the announcement of the R. Maybe I need Mr. Miyagi to teach me some patience…


Remember: The ox is slow, but the earth is patient.


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## amorse (May 5, 2021)

melgross said:


> I wonder why they will have them coming out with a high Rez camera, whatever that will be? Isn’t 45MP enough for these? They have a wider field of view, you can’t use all the rez in one photo.
> 
> somehow it seems by the announcement that these will have crazy high Rez if they are intro’d with a high Rez body. Unless the intro together is just coincidence, if these have been delayed for some reason, for example. We know that’s been happening.


I may be misunderstanding your comment (forgive me if that's so!), but I think the benefit of a tilt shift being paired with a higher resolution camera is not necessarily that the glass is sharp enough to use with such high resolution, but rather a tilt shift lens gives you some other options to manage loss of sharpness caused by diffraction.

Images produced by a very high resolution sensor may start losing sharpness at commonly used apertures (when images are viewed at full size). As the sensor resolution goes up, diffraction may become more visible at lower apertures when images are viewed at full size. For instance, according to a photopills calculator, a 100MP sensor may have some visual diffraction at f/5.6. Now, if you're losing sharpness from f/5.6 and upwards, it may be difficult to keep some scenes with more depth in sharp focus without going to a higher aperture or focus stacking. A tilt shift lens, however, can let you change the plane of focus to some degree to enable more of the scene to be in focus at a lower aperture. 

That's based on my very limited (and likely flawed) understanding of tilt shift lenses, but to my understanding you may need a tilt shift to get all the sharpness that a very high resolution sensor can deliver.


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## Famateur (May 5, 2021)

It's fun to see history repeat (or at least rhyme) on this forum. Anyone else remember the good old days of some begging for a "high megapixel monster" and the debates of whether it was necessary or overkill? Then the 5DS and 5DSR came out with 50MP. Canon listened (though didn't get much credit from some forum dwellers). Now we have a prosumer R5 shooting 45MP at up to 20FPS with vastly better dynamic range, low light performance and incredible eye-detect AF...and we're once again looking forward in anticipation of a "high megapixel" body -- the goal posts have just shifted to 80-100MP now.


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2021)

Famateur said:


> It's fun to see history repeat (or at least rhyme) on this forum. Anyone else remember the good old days of some begging for a "high megapixel monster" and the debates of whether it was necessary or overkill? Then the 5DS and 5DSR came out with 50MP. Canon listened (though didn't get much credit from some forum dwellers). Now we have a prosumer R5 shooting 45MP at up to 20FPS with vastly better dynamic range, low light performance and incredible eye-detect AF...and we're once again looking forward in anticipation of a "high megapixel" body -- the goal posts have just shifted to 80-100MP now.


Indeed. And we're still hearing the misguided refrain of more MP aren't useful because 'you can't use all the resolution', because of the lens diffraction limit, etc., which just indicates that as the goalposts continue to move, some people still don't understand the basic rules of the game.


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## ColinJR (May 5, 2021)

Realistically, 14mm would be too wide for most of my needs but I’m defintely looking forward to an updated 24mm. The 24mm TS-E II does not match the standards set by the newer 50mm, 90mm and 135mm TS-E lenses, so hopefully a new one will have substantially better resolution. Combined with AF, it should make for a _killer_ walk around street photography lens for architecture enthusiasts... 

It‘d also be _really_ nice if they could also make it with a wider maximum aperture, such as f/2... then maybe I could finally stop lamenting the fuji kit I had with the 16mm f/1.4 (24 equivalent) that was stolen.


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## unfocused (May 5, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Tell that to your favorite large vendor that doesn't want to overstock camera equipment that very few people purchase. The new norm. Seller vs wholesale buyer. The large vendors are not willing to purchase niche items in huge quantities and they sit in warehouses after the initial 3 months. After the initial preorders sales numbers level off to relatively nothing. Alternative, purchase from your local and small retailer.


While the R5, R6, 100-500 zoom, batteries for the R5&6, EF adapters for the R system, battery grips for the R5&6, 800 f11, 600 f11, 70-200 2.8 zoom, etc. might be considered "niche" items in the sense that the entire R system is a niche product, none of them are at risk of sitting in warehouses.


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2021)

ColinJR said:


> Realistically, 14mm would be too wide for most of my needs but I’m defintely looking forward to an updated 24mm. The 24mm TS-E II does not match the standards set by the newer 50mm, 90mm and 135mm TS-E lenses, so hopefully a new one will have substantially better resolution. Combined with AF, it should make for a _killer_ walk around street photography lens for architecture enthusiasts...
> 
> It‘d also be _really_ nice if they could also make it with a wider maximum aperture, such as f/2... then maybe I could finally stop lamenting the fuji kit I had with the 16mm f/1.4 (24 equivalent) that was stolen.


Don't hold your breath on a fast-aperture TS lens. They're 'slow' because it's hard to correct aberrations at wide apertures in wide lenses, and it gets even harder with bigger image circles (FF is harder than APS-C, and a FF TS lens has an image circle large enough to cover a MF (e.g. Hasselblad, Phase One) sensor.


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## lexptr (May 5, 2021)

As much as I don't like the shift function, the tilt is interesting. Happy to see they prepare AF version. Interesting to see how it will function. Maybe weather sealing will come as well? Any ways, not sure I will ever justify such special lens in my arsenal.


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## peters (May 5, 2021)

I realy hope the high MP R camera will be as good in video as the R5 is. 
I would love to have more MP for product and architecture photography. But I also need 2 capable video cameras - so buying 2x the same camera would be a blessing. Its so awesome to never think about which camera to grab, for wedding and shootings on location its perfect. Always matching settings and image quality, always the same handling and fitting accessories =)


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## symmar22 (May 5, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don't hold your breath on a fast-aperture TS lens. They're 'slow' because it's hard to correct aberrations at wide apertures in wide lenses, and it gets even harder with bigger image circles (FF is harder than APS-C, and a FF TS lens has an image circle large enough to cover a MF (e.g. Hasselblad, Phase One) sensor.


Absolutely, wide shift lenses are mainly designed for architecture, where absolute sharpness is required from corner to corner with as little distortion as possible. They are usually used stopped down a lot for depth of field, so a 24mm f1.4 TS makes little sense. A brighter (f2) 50mm or 90mm TS could be more interesting for creative portraiture or studio photography (food).

As an architecture photographer, my 17mm, 24mm, and 45mm are always used between f11 and f16 on a sturdy tripod. I almost never use the tilt, unless I must picture a flat surface from an angle and cannot achieve sharpness with DOF. The AF on wide angle TS-E lenses is not a welcome addition IMO. When you work on a tripod you need a good MANUAL focus, that is the exact contrary of what a focus by wire lens is offering. The manual focus on the TS-E lenses is decent, but is a real step back from real manual lenses like my Contax Distagon 35mm Shift that I still use for work. I fear that focus by wire TS-E AF lenses will lower the quality of manual focus one step further.


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## Ph0t0 (May 5, 2021)

Famateur said:


> It's fun to see history repeat (or at least rhyme) on this forum. Anyone else remember the good old days of some begging for a "high megapixel monster" and the debates of whether it was necessary or overkill? Then the 5DS and 5DSR came out with 50MP. Canon listened (though didn't get much credit from some forum dwellers). Now we have a prosumer R5 shooting 45MP at up to 20FPS with vastly better dynamic range, low light performance and incredible eye-detect AF...and we're once again looking forward in anticipation of a "high megapixel" body -- the goal posts have just shifted to 80-100MP now.


I remember some folks (not on this forum) saying that the resolution of the original 5D is allready more than enough and that 1Ds mk II is an overkill and that they won't buy a 5D Mk II if it comes with a sensor over 16MP because it's gonna produce images with way too much noise and lousy IQ.


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## melgross (May 5, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Huh? Sorry, that statement makes no sense to me.


Of course it makes sense. These will be higher rez than the old lenses. The body will be a high Rez body. But unless these lenses deliver stupendous rez, the problem with digital vs. lens rez will continue. The body being capable of higher rez than the lens.


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## privatebydesign (May 5, 2021)

melgross said:


> Of course it makes sense. These will be higher rez than the old lenses. The body will be a high Rez body. But unless these lenses deliver stupendous rez, the problem with digital vs. lens rez will continue. The body being capable of higher rez than the lens.


But that simply isn't how system resolution works. And this continued complete misunderstanding seems to be perpetuating...

This isn't definitive but is a reasonable basic outline of the maths

Reposted yet again/again/again:-

System resolution can be broadly shorthanded down to this equation, it isn't perfect but close enough.

tsr = 1/sqrt((1/lsr) ² + (1/ssr) ² )

Where tsr is total system resolution, lsr is lens spatial resolution, and ssr is sensor spatial resolution.

So if, for example, we have a sensor that can resolve 100 lppmm, and a lens that can resolve 100 lppmm we get this

1/sqrt((1/100) ² + (1/100) ² ) = tsr of 71 lppmm

Leave the same lens on, good or bad, and double the sensor resolution to 200 lppmm

1/sqrt((1/100) ² + (1/200) ² ) = tsr of 89 lppmm

You will notice that the system resolution, even in this simplified form, can never resolve 100% of the lowest performing portion of that system, so if a 24MP sensor is returning 80% of the potential of a lens then a 50MP sensor might return 90%, how useful that is in real life is a moot point, but it does illustrate that even the most modest lens will show increased resolution when put in front of a higher resolving sensor.






Three new RF prime lenses coming in early 2020 [CR2]


If Canon releases a hi-res body (60+mp) then it needs a set of lens that resolve to that level. No use releasing the body when the resolution can't be used. What I don't understand is why there needs to be a new set of non-L lens for the R mount. There already exists a wide range of cheap EF-S...




www.canonrumors.com









Canon EOS R body with more than 75mp on the horizon [CR2]


Ultimatly, there are only so many photons. Lets use a pair of imaginary sensors to show the point with easy math. Both sensors are perfect, and both have a perfect A/D circuit to read them. Both sensors cover the same area, one is 10X10 pixels, the other one is 40X40 pixels. Both sensors are...




www.canonrumors.com









An 50.6mp EOS-1 Body Being Explored [CR2]


Just curious about something...Is there any older Canon lens - like the EF100-400L - that will be able to resolve anything close to what a 50.6mp sensor can resolve, or will buying a 50.6mp camera require all new glass? There are several old Canon lenses able to show much more detail with a 50...




www.canonrumors.com





Here is a much more in depth way of calculating optical system resolution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_resolution


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2021)

melgross said:


> Of course it makes sense. These will be higher rez than the old lenses. The body will be a high Rez body. But unless these lenses deliver stupendous rez, the problem with digital vs. lens rez will continue. The body being capable of higher rez than the lens.


I suggest you do some research on what determines the resolution of optical systems (edit: start with PBD's post above!). With modern cameras and lenses, there is no such thing as 'empty resolution', increased sensor resolution always results in increased system resolution, even of the increase is not linear. Then you threw in, 'they have a wider FoV' like that was an explanation.

The same is not true for some of the optical systems I work with; for example, on a microscope with a standard Zeiss upright research scope optical train, a 100x NA=1.4 oil-immersion microscope objective, even when paired with a NA=1.4 oil-top condenser, can be fully resolved by a sVGA-resolution image sensor when imaging samples with visible light wavelengths. Anything above 800x600 is truly empty resolution. Incidentally, in the case of microscope objectives FoV does matter – while a 100x objective only needs 0.5 MP to fully resolve it, a 1.25x objective needs ~2.5MP to fully resolve the image (which is why the Zeiss microscope cameras costing far more than a Canon 1-series use low-MP 1/3" CCD sensors).


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## fox40phil (May 5, 2021)

Lets hope they still make them TC compatible! 
Not like the 70-200s... 

I own the old 45mm TS-E since two months - my first TS-E and I love it! It is just an another and creative way of photography <3


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## mb66energy (May 5, 2021)

stevelee said:


> It will be interesting to see how autofocus would work on a seriously tilted lens. With the current 24mm and 17mm, I used the manual focus to get something focused, and then adjusted the tilt to get everything else I wanted in focus. If you motorized the tilt and had serious computing power in the camera, that could work. Or at the other extreme, it might just work as autofocus in situations with little or no tilt, just so they could say it was autofocus for advertising purposes.
> 
> Maybe some time this will bring the TS-E models down to my price range.


Maybe I see things a little bit too simplified: Put your AF in Servo Mode and the AF is trying to get and keep focus. Tilting is basically* just the "same" thing like changing the distance for the AF acquisition routine of the camera: Bring it in focus again.
A tilt adapter for EF lenses should work without any software adaptions on an R series (or M series) camera (and not to extreme tilting should work with the standard image cycle).

EDIT: * basically inserted, I now that it isn't exactly the same like changing the distance ...


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## LDS (May 5, 2021)

keithcooper said:


> more people to buy my tilt/shift book ;-)


If I only could have it delivered....


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## Del Paso (May 5, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I don't agree. Using a tripod...the first thing you do with a shift movement is compose, meter (in Manual) and then focus. Then you shift the font element. The plane of focus stays the same. With tilt, you focus...then tilt, then re-focus and often then tilt a bit more and re-focus until your OCD gets a complete work out.
> I've never had any issues with the corner sharpness of a TS-e 17L unshifted and it's not a lens that generally gets used wide open when shifted. It's designed for architecture and that generally needs stopping down for DOF.


You're certainly right as to tilting, I never use this function, and, sacrilege?, never use tripods.I'm not into architecture, but in city "tourism"... Nevertheless, corner sharpness, compared to the TSE 24 II or even EF 14mm II,could benefit from some improvement. The corners are certainly sharp, but I'm convinced, looking at the latest TSE 50, 90 and 135, and Nikon 19mm TS, that corner sharpness could be improved.


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## blackcoffee17 (May 5, 2021)

Ph0t0 said:


> I remember some folks (not on this forum) saying that the resolution of the original 5D is allready more than enough and that 1Ds mk II is an overkill and that they won't buy a 5D Mk II if it comes with a sensor over 16MP because it's gonna produce images with way too much noise and lousy IQ.



In a few years 100MP will be considered normal resolution and we are going to read rumors about a "high resolution" Canon camera, probably over 200MP.


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## digigal (May 5, 2021)

keithcooper said:


> AF will be interesting, as well as how they implement the interface to control it with tilt.
> 
> In teaching people the use of tilt and shift, the concept consistently most difficult for even experienced photographers to 'get' is that with tilt the distance scale no longer has a defined meaning with respect to distances. Whereas with shift, you can focus and then add shift -or the other way round. The positioning of the tilted focus plane is dependent on both tilt angle and the setting of the focus ring together. This interaction seems more conceptually difficult, leading to people just randomly changing tilt after focusing or adding tilt and focusing to 'see what happens' Whilst it can work, there is all too often no deeper understanding, making it difficult to repeat effects or apply them consistently in different settings.
> 
> ...


Just ordered the book--too bad the shipping to the US is almost as much as the book!  Looking forward to learning more about these lenses. May rent one some day to play around with.
Catherine


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## SteB1 (May 5, 2021)

cgc said:


> Shouldn't they be called *TS-RF*?
> It seems that the reason for the TS-E name (instead of TS-EF) was the "special" feature of lacking autofocus.
> 
> Another nomenclature could be including the feature in the regular name (e.g. Canon RF 14mm f/4L *TS* USM)


I think you're right because the MP-E 65mm f2.8 1-5x macro lens uses the same designation. It is also manual focus. Even though I've owned this lens for at least 13 years, I'd never thought about this before. But it does make sense, and would explain the E suffix on the tilt-shift lenses.


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## keithcooper (May 5, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> I did buy my printer, the Pro-2000, and few other bits and pieces through your affiliate links so I’m trying!


Appreciated!
I do have a 'proper' job tomorrow where I'll take a TS-E24, 1.4xIII, TS-E17 and 5Ds with me. Things are picking up a bit!


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## keithcooper (May 5, 2021)

digigal said:


> Just ordered the book--too bad the shipping to the US is almost as much as the book!  Looking forward to learning more about these lenses. May rent one some day to play around with.
> Catherine


Thanks!


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2021)

SteB1 said:


> I think you're right because the MP-E 65mm f2.8 1-5x macro lens uses the same designation. It is also manual focus. Even though I've owned this lens for at least 13 years, I'd never thought about this before. But it does make sense, and would explain the E suffix on the tilt-shift lenses.


The -E on the tilt shift (TS) and macro photo (MP) lenses designates electronic, for the electronic aperture. EF = electro focus.


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## stevelee (May 5, 2021)

digigal said:


> Just ordered the book--too bad the shipping to the US is almost as much as the book!  Looking forward to learning more about these lenses. May rent one some day to play around with.
> Catherine


I got the Kindle version, so the shipping wasn’t bad.


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## MrToes (May 5, 2021)

Would be nice to see a 100MP


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## [email protected] (May 5, 2021)

john1970 said:


> I am interested in buying a T/S lens for the RF mount, but am undecided on which focal length although I am leaning towards the 24 mm focal length.


The T/S focal length you need will ever be the one you don't have. Slippery slope, my friend.


PS: If we get servos moving the tilt for us, as is mentioned in the patent, it's going to be a cute little bugger that'll appear to be tilting its head back and forth. Inevitably, it'll earn a name. Let me be the first to put one out a suggestion to the Naming Committee that is this board: Ritchie.


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## jam05 (May 5, 2021)

Ya better preorder the second they get announced. These RF TS lenses won't be in stock in any huge numbers. If one merely shoots landscape, it may not be a big deal. But portraiture with a TS AF lens? Oh my.


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## jam05 (May 5, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Generally that isn’t how vendor stocking works. Distributors, which in this case is the importer and manufacturer, offer terms. The retailer doesn’t buy the item and then put it on their shelf.


We're talking about E-commerce. No shelf. Canon USA does not sell it's prosumer cameras, lenses, or Cine equipment via a "Distributor". Buyer, Seller, Shipping, Warehouse management. For e-commerce. (preorders and first come first serve selling e-commerce is NOT brick and mortar). Period. it is precisely how automated inventory (WMS) and warehousing (ASRS) works in large vendor warehousing. With Incoterms rules being the standard for shipping and delivery, NOT the old "brick and mortar" chain methodoloy that you are familiar and refering to. Consumer purchases directly from the warehouse inventory via online e-commerce. Automated warehousing (WMS) has become a staple for mass inventory in North America. The seller may or not be responsible for the purchaser's "Distributor" beyond the point of deliver determined by the Incoterm coding. The number purchased and WMS has nada to do with the shipping/distribution. Warehousing and Inventory management are the growth drivers of e-commerce.
A familiarization with the Incoterms rules may help you differentiate before assuming incorrectly any similarity.









Incoterms® 2020 - ICC - International Chamber of Commerce


ICC’s world renowned Incoterms© rules facilitate trillions of dollars in global trade each year. Learn more about the official launch of Incoterms® 2020.




iccwbo.org


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## canonmike (May 6, 2021)

unfocused said:


> I'm happy for those who want these lenses. I just wish Canon would actually make the lenses they have already released. I'm getting a little tired of "on backorder," "more coming soon," and "released in limited quantity."


"Ditto!" and double "Ditto!"


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## canonmike (May 6, 2021)

Famateur said:


> It's fun to see history repeat (or at least rhyme) on this forum. Anyone else remember the good old days of some begging for a "high megapixel monster" and the debates of whether it was necessary or overkill? Then the 5DS and 5DSR came out with 50MP. Canon listened (though didn't get much credit from some forum dwellers). Now we have a prosumer R5 shooting 45MP at up to 20FPS with vastly better dynamic range, low light performance and incredible eye-detect AF...and we're once again looking forward in anticipation of a "high megapixel" body -- the goal posts have just shifted to 80-100MP now.


I like your commentary but it's human nature to always want more. You know the dialogue, "Now, what have you done for us today, Canon?' More, more, more......


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## privatebydesign (May 6, 2021)

jam05 said:


> We're talking about E-commerce. No shelf. Canon USA does not sell it's prosumer cameras, lenses, or Cine equipment via a "Distributor". Buyer, Seller, Shipping, Warehouse management. For e-commerce. (preorders and first come first serve selling e-commerce is NOT brick and mortar). Period. it is precisely how automated inventory (WMS) and warehousing (ASRS) works in large vendor warehousing. With Incoterms rules being the standard for shipping and delivery, NOT the old "brick and mortar" chain methodoloy that you are familiar and refering to. Consumer purchases directly from the warehouse inventory via online e-commerce. Automated warehousing (WMS) has become a staple for mass inventory in North America. The seller may or not be responsible for the purchaser's "Distributor" beyond the point of deliver determined by the Incoterm coding. The number purchased and WMS has nada to do with the shipping/distribution. Warehousing and Inventory management are the growth drivers of e-commerce.
> A familiarization with the Incoterms rules may help you differentiate before assuming incorrectly any similarity.
> 
> 
> ...


If you are an authorized Canon retailer in the USA you get all your stock through Canon USA, a wholly owned subsidiary of Canon Japan. Canon USA are the sole importer and distributor of all authorized Canon equipment imported into the USA and Canada (because Canon USA wholly own Canon Canada). An authorized retailer cannot purchase Canon equipment without going through Canon USA. All authorized retailers have stock allowances that are on terms, that is, if they agree to take x number of units they get them at y price per unit to be paid for at a point in the future. The bigger x is the lower y is, to a point. All authorized Canon retailers have to take an allowance of relatively niche products to fulfill their authorized status which is why you sometimes get a deal on a niche lens in person or via CPW at a mom and pop store, they want to sell it before they have to pay for it. When items are in short supply Canon alone dictate the distribution to the various retailers. Retailers don’t pay for stock up front, neither brick and mortar nor online retailers. They all agree terms, well actually Canon USA specifies the terms of payment but it always has an element of credit to it.

Further, Canon USA do not ‘drop ship’ and neither do Canon Japan, if you buy a camera from Amazon, or any other online retailer, it comes from an Amazon warehouse not a Canon USA warehouse.


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## dafrank (May 6, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


The idea that autofocus for TS lenses is a great feature is nearly idiotic unless the autofocus they employ takes into account the changes in the plane of focus manipulation afforded by these lenses. The use of TS lenses requires a slow and careful tuning of the tilting “front standard”. To make the new models AF lenses, just for non-tilt use, is senseless overkill, and the careful process of tilting and shifting a lens clearly invites manual focus.


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## Mr Majestyk (May 6, 2021)

OMG get ready for $5K TS-E lenses in Australia, given the newest EF TS-E lenses are in the $3K-4K range. I hope I'm wrong, but zero need to update the TS-E 24L II if you already have it. AF is not a selling point IMO, just another cost we don't need.


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## unfocused (May 6, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> If you are an authorized Canon retailer in the USA you get all your stock through Canon USA, a wholly owned subsidiary of Canon Japan. Canon USA are the sole importer and distributor of all authorized Canon equipment imported into the USA and Canada (because Canon USA wholly own Canon Canada). An authorized retailer cannot purchase Canon equipment without going through Canon USA. All authorized retailers have stock allowances that are on terms, that is, if they agree to take x number of units they get them at y price per unit to be paid for at a point in the future. The bigger x is the lower y is, to a point. All authorized Canon retailers have to take an allowance of relatively niche products to fulfill their authorized status which is why you sometimes get a deal on a niche lens in person or via CPW at a mom and pop store, they want to sell it before they have to pay for it. When items are in short supply Canon alone dictate the distribution to the various retailers. Retailers don’t pay for stock up front, neither brick and mortar nor online retailers. They all agree terms, well actually Canon USA specifies the terms of payment but it always has an element of credit to it.


I like the way Mr. Jam says two conflicting things, "There is inventory that retailers have to pay for. Oh wait, that's not true? Okay then, it's all e-commerce and no one warehouses their own inventory." 

None of this, of course, is relevant to my original comment which he felt compelled to respond to, as I was simply commenting on Canon's inability to deliver the products they have already released.


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## Sporgon (May 6, 2021)

dafrank said:


> The idea that autofocus for TS lenses is a great feature is nearly idiotic unless the autofocus they employ takes into account the changes in the plane of focus manipulation afforded by these lenses. The use of TS lenses requires a slow and careful tuning of the tilting “front standard”. To make the new models AF lenses, just for non-tilt use, is senseless overkill, and the careful process of tilting and shifting a lens clearly invites manual focus.


AF would make these new TS lenses more practical when used as a ‘normal’ lens and therefore more attractive to a wider audience.


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## pape2 (May 6, 2021)

Only reason i can figure to add af these lenses is focus shift and that means very highmegapixel camera.
No idea how possible to do focus shift with all complexity of tilt and shift work.
Nobody pays 3k from using these to normal photographing ,there are better lenses for normal photography .


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## David - Sydney (May 6, 2021)

jam05 said:


> We're talking about E-commerce. No shelf. Canon USA does not sell it's prosumer cameras, lenses, or Cine equipment via a "Distributor". Buyer, Seller, Shipping, Warehouse management. For e-commerce. (preorders and first come first serve selling e-commerce is NOT brick and mortar). Period. it is precisely how automated inventory (WMS) and warehousing (ASRS) works in large vendor warehousing. With Incoterms rules being the standard for shipping and delivery, NOT the old "brick and mortar" chain methodoloy that you are familiar and refering to. Consumer purchases directly from the warehouse inventory via online e-commerce. Automated warehousing (WMS) has become a staple for mass inventory in North America. The seller may or not be responsible for the purchaser's "Distributor" beyond the point of deliver determined by the Incoterm coding. The number purchased and WMS has nada to do with the shipping/distribution. Warehousing and Inventory management are the growth drivers of e-commerce.
> A familiarization with the Incoterms rules may help you differentiate before assuming incorrectly any similarity.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm familiar with Incoterms and international logistics and distribution but I am not sure about your point is linking Incoterms and distribution model. 

Incoterms don't care about which model is used. They only define shipping costs and risk/insurance between buyer and seller with IoR and EoR in different scenarios. They specifically do not cover transfer of title ie who owns the item or holds a lien on the item at any point in time or whether the item is on consignment with the seller. 
Incoterms are generally not used for domestic shipping within the US in any case but of course can be. The common use of FOB within the US is incorrect except in very specific circumstances not related to shipping cameras  

WMS and ASRS can be used for different distribution models from centralised warehouse per country or hub/spoke/edge stocking points or even build to order. Forecast models for inventory management can be from a simple reorder point system to AI based.
E-commerce just means buying online whether B2B or C2B and independent of stocking models.
Minimising inventory is cheaper for everyone but there is always a risk the just-in-time manufacturing will break down due to political, disaster, Covid, shipping (Evergreen's Ever Given) or bottlenecks (eg global semiconductor fab constraints) or a combination of these


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## symmar22 (May 6, 2021)

dafrank said:


> The idea that autofocus for TS lenses is a great feature is nearly idiotic unless the autofocus they employ takes into account the changes in the plane of focus manipulation afforded by these lenses. The use of TS lenses requires a slow and careful tuning of the tilting “front standard”. To make the new models AF lenses, just for non-tilt use, is senseless overkill, and the careful process of tilting and shifting a lens clearly invites manual focus.


I am with you here, I am afraid the trend is into going über-everything. All lenses must be 1.2, or full of features most people don't need. But as the market is shrinking, I guess manufacturers need to sell innovation at any cost. Though I am sure it's a good lens, the 100mm macro R seems a bit over-engineered too; while 1.4:1 macro is not a bad idea, the SA control (a copy of what Nikon made in 1990 with the 100mm and 135mm f2 Defocus Image Control), is IMO a gimmicky feature that leads to over complicated and expensive lenses). 

About the fact that it could attract new user, I don't agree, TS-E lenses are expensive specialized lenses, and most people don't even know how to use them. I don't thing adding AF and selling them for 4000$ will actually attract more people. You invest in these lenses when you work with a tripod, which means you have time to compose ,focus and shift carefully. Lousy focus by wire is the last thing you need on these lenses.

When I started working as an assistant my boss was using a Horseman LX-C 4x5 view camera with integrated computer that was giving you the required DOF based on the lens you were using; though it didn't seem a bad idea at the time, he ended never using it, since it was in fact just a gimmick. None of the major view camera manufacturer of the era ever copied the idea since it was just plain useless. I still work sometimes with a 4x5 and it's not a feature I miss.


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## Antono Refa (May 6, 2021)

A tilt-shift lens with a focal length of 14mm and auto focus? Dayum!


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## JohnC (May 6, 2021)

Antono Refa said:


> A tilt-shift lens with a focal length of 14mm and auto focus? Dayum!


While this will be a great lens regardless, I'm very interested to seeing if there is a method of accepting filters (drop in or other-wise). The use of ND filters and CPL filters is almost a necessity for certain kinds of photography, and helpful in many others.


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## Del Paso (May 6, 2021)

Sporgon said:


> AF would make these new TS lenses more practical when used as a ‘normal’ lens and therefore more attractive to a wider audience.


You are basically right, the rub is that a "normal" audience - not really in need of TS features- won't accept to pay as much as for instance the TS Nikon 19mm costs. The Canon will also have AF, so, I'm afraid it could be very very $$$$$$$. On the other hand, a non-TS 14mm plus the 17mm TSE aren't inexpensive either...and one lens is lighter than two in an already crammed backpack.
But for pro users, the RF 14 TS will become a fascinating and useful tool.


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## Hector1970 (May 6, 2021)

I have a 24 mm TS-E II and chose it because it was a more flexible focal length and could easily take filter. The bulbous 17mm and a more complex filter set up pushed me infavour of the 24mm. Can I ask the owners of a 17mm whether a 14mm is attractive and where would it be used to best advantage. Is it interiors or would it also be desirable for architecture?


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## NKD (May 6, 2021)

I dont think i can wait til 2022.. Unless we get some prelim specs announced.
Then, the 5dsR's will have to keep going strong.

AF on a 14 & 24, inst that helpful, as I am generally on a sturdy tripod, styling shots, shooting archi,
Imagine AF will be useful,, especially if you can hand hold this megapixel monster with IBIS & AMAZING HDR, with only 1 exposure needed! Not 2-3 exposure on the 5dsR's

I would make my switch now to the R5, terrible battery life... and feels tacky
IF there was a ... *35 - 90mm TS ZOOM* lens coming! *OR ANY 35mm SHIFT LENS..*

GFX 100 / 100s / 50s2 may be on the cards with all the EF Tilt shifts.
Using it with the 35mm crop mode enables, so the Canon glass is like for like...
..Except for the Red / Orange tinting Canon apply to their lens element, that only works with their sensors.

Perhaps Canons new MP monster will have crop features inbuilt.
- Possible MF larger than FF sensor? = 100+MP with 4:3 ratio
- 35mm FF Sensor mode = standard ratio. ~80mp
- Crop modes (1.4 / 1.6), where the 14mm becomes 17mm & the 24mm becomes the much desired 35mm ~ 50mp being still usable.


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## NKD (May 6, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> I have a 24 mm TS-E II and chose it because it was a more flexible focal length and could easily take filter. The bulbous 17mm and a more complex filter set up pushed me infavour of the 24mm. Can I ask the owners of a 17mm whether a 14mm is attractive and where would it be used to best advantage. Is it interiors or would it also be desirable for architecture?


Heya, I have the Laowa 12mm.. (24mm is wide enough  - 17mm for when you cant fit it in.)
The 12mm comes on most half / full day architecture shoots, it gets used for ~1 shot for every ~6 photo shoots.
Then the image is generally cropped to a 3:4 ratio / insta ratio;
My other reason was for the odd astro use.

Could even get the same shot with the 17 with a few shots stitched, 
Although I have it because of the desire not to stitch in post & only realize I dint get the image, that I cant go back to shoot..

I shoot for designers / architects. Imagine it would be used for real estate.
The 12-24mm would be the best for run an gun real estate, keeping 1 lens on with AF.

Laowa also have some other lens I believe that are cheaper an F4, instead of F2.8. + they are small

Further, I have a Nisi s6 adapter kit with the 105mm CPL and all of their 150mm GRADS..
..They just sit in my car, never really used.. I did like the night filter, thought this was great, once you figure out how to neutrilize the color cast in post.
Very cumbersome to attach any GRADS or large CPLs to both the 17 & 24mm filter threads.


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## jam05 (May 6, 2021)

stevelee said:


> It will be interesting to see how autofocus would work on a seriously tilted lens. With the current 24mm and 17mm, I used the manual focus to get something focused, and then adjusted the tilt to get everything else I wanted in focus. If you motorized the tilt and had serious computing power in the camera, that could work. Or at the other extreme, it might just work as autofocus in situations with little or no tilt, just so they could say it was autofocus for advertising purposes.
> 
> Maybe some time this will bring the TS-E models down to my price range.


For portraits it shouldn't be complicated for the user. Not much to overthink. Shoot and compose as normal except use the Eye AF algorithm that Canon has exceeded in to do the AF while concentrating on composition and TS Scheimflug. Should not take long to master. Certainly not as long to master than TS using total manual focus.


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## jam05 (May 6, 2021)

The fear and tedius time consuming adventure of using TS, learning Scheimflug principles and while manual focusing has kept many from purchasing TS lenses and shy away from the art. Even with knowledge, fast tethering setups, practical application may not often award the user with an in focus subject to their liking. This may soon change.


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## Ozarker (May 6, 2021)

keithcooper said:


> Ah, I wish... that would be the publishers.
> The last involvement I had with the book was checking proofs last year.
> The US launch of the book was delayed quite a bit.


I'll be getting your book, Keith, for my birthday next month.  Just now pre-ordered on Amazon USA. Now I just need to figure out which tilt/shift lens to get when the time comes.


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## Del Paso (May 6, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'll be getting your book, Keith, for my birthday next month.  Just now pre-ordered on Amazon USA. Now I just need to figure out which tilt/shift lens to get when the time comes.


Easy!
For "Bear State" you need a TSE 1200mm.


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## Ozarker (May 6, 2021)

Del Paso said:


> Easy!
> For "Bear State" you need a TSE 1200mm.


Are you in Arkansas?


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## privatebydesign (May 6, 2021)

The more I see the price and complexity of these new tools the more I appreciate being stuck in the EF world!


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## stevelee (May 6, 2021)

symmar22 said:


> I am with you here, I am afraid the trend is into going über-everything. All lenses must be 1.2, or full of features most people don't need. But as the market is shrinking, I guess manufacturers need to sell innovation at any cost. Though I am sure it's a good lens, the 100mm macro R seems a bit over-engineered too; while 1.4:1 macro is not a bad idea, the SA control (a copy of what Nikon made in 1990 with the 100mm and 135mm f2 Defocus Image Control), is IMO a gimmicky feature that leads to over complicated and expensive lenses).
> 
> About the fact that it could attract new user, I don't agree, TS-E lenses are expensive specialized lenses, and most people don't even know how to use them. I don't thing adding AF and selling them for 4000$ will actually attract more people. You invest in these lenses when you work with a tripod, which means you have time to compose ,focus and shift carefully. Lousy focus by wire is the last thing you need on these lenses.
> 
> When I started working as an assistant my boss was using a Horseman LX-C 4x5 view camera with integrated computer that was giving you the required DOF based on the lens you were using; though it didn't seem a bad idea at the time, he ended never using it, since it was in fact just a gimmick. None of the major view camera manufacturer of the era ever copied the idea since it was just plain useless. I still work sometimes with a 4x5 and it's not a feature I miss.


I rented a couple of TS-E lenses last year and had a lot of fun and took some photos I like. But I concluded that I wouldn’t use one enough to justify buying one. Or maybe more accurately, I didn’t really want one enough to part with the money. I may change my mind some time and buy the 24mm, knowing going in that it is not that rational a thing to do. I have enough money lying around to support a couple impulse purchases from what I haven’t spent on travel, etc., over the last 14 months. So that’s not the issue.

So I have a hard time seeing any broad appeal for spending $3,000+ for similar lenses by folk who haven’t used one just because they could also be used for casual snapshots.


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## stevelee (May 6, 2021)

Antono Refa said:


> A tilt-shift lens with a focal length of 14mm and auto focus? Dayum!


I did such a poor job adjusting to the 17mm lens during my rental period that I am not tempted by the idea of a 14mm one. I did get some nice outdoor shots, including panoramas. But I did not manage anything decent indoors, not even interesting for their wackiness. I realize that it is a bread-and-butter lens for a fair number of real estate photographers and the like, and if I did that work, I’d learn to use it when needed.


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## Antono Refa (May 6, 2021)

JohnC said:


> While this will be a great lens regardless, I'm very interested to seeing if there is a method of accepting filters (drop in or other-wise). The use of ND filters and CPL filters is almost a necessity for certain kinds of photography, and helpful in many others.


AFAIK, the TS-E 17mm requires a 150mm square filter. I would be surprised if a 14mm tilt-shift could do with smaller front filters. IIRC, the TS-E lenses have plenty of space next to the mount for drop in filters, so I hope for a drop in filter.


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## Antono Refa (May 6, 2021)

stevelee said:


> I did such a poor job adjusting to the 17mm lens during my rental period that I am not tempted by the idea of a 14mm one. I did get some nice outdoor shots, including panoramas. But I did not manage anything decent indoors, not even interesting for their wackiness. I realize that it is a bread-and-butter lens for a fair number of real estate photographers and the like, and if I did that work, I’d learn to use it when needed.


It would be an impressive technological fit, if nothing else. After Canon released the TS-E 17mm, it took Nikon about five(?) years to release the PC-E 19mm.


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## Tamerlane (May 6, 2021)

symmar22 said:


> I am with you here, I am afraid the trend is into going über-everything. All lenses must be 1.2, or full of features most people don't need. But as the market is shrinking, I guess manufacturers need to sell innovation at any cost. Though I am sure it's a good lens, the 100mm macro R seems a bit over-engineered too; while 1.4:1 macro is not a bad idea, the SA control (a copy of what Nikon made in 1990 with the 100mm and 135mm f2 Defocus Image Control), is IMO a gimmicky feature that leads to over complicated and expensive lenses).
> 
> About the fact that it could attract new user, I don't agree, TS-E lenses are expensive specialized lenses, and most people don't even know how to use them. I don't thing adding AF and selling them for 4000$ will actually attract more people. You invest in these lenses when you work with a tripod, which means you have time to compose ,focus and shift carefully. Lousy focus by wire is the last thing you need on these lenses.
> 
> When I started working as an assistant my boss was using a Horseman LX-C 4x5 view camera with integrated computer that was giving you the required DOF based on the lens you were using; though it didn't seem a bad idea at the time, he ended never using it, since it was in fact just a gimmick. None of the major view camera manufacturer of the era ever copied the idea since it was just plain useless. I still work sometimes with a 4x5 and it's not a feature I miss.


"You invest in these lenses when you work with a tripod,"
My 17mm TSE + EOS 5DSR have been fine handheld outdoors, and even down to 1/25 indoors - few private spaces, like churches or government buildings, let you set up a tripod without going through cumbersome permission applications. I've lost some shots because the infinity setting of the 17mm is not at the end of the dial and gets knocked out of place easily, so autofocus might overcome this (a focus lock would have been even better).


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## RoyE (May 6, 2021)

One of the features I really like about the EF to R adapter is the behind the lens polarizer. This makes the 17mm much easier to deal with. I'm wondering if the new 14 and 24 t/s lenses would have that capability


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## privatebydesign (May 6, 2021)

Tamerlane said:


> "You invest in these lenses when you work with a tripod,"
> My 17mm TSE + EOS 5DSR have been fine handheld outdoors, and even down to 1/25 indoors - few private spaces, like churches or government buildings, let you set up a tripod without going through cumbersome permission applications. I've lost some shots because the infinity setting of the 17mm is not at the end of the dial and gets knocked out of place easily, so autofocus might overcome this (a focus lock would have been even better).


Being able to turn focus past infinity is crucial for tilt control. Indeed the ability to go much further than currently would be very useful and appreciated.

Here is a full explanation by the man himself, Harold Merklinger. https://luminous-landscape.com/canon-tilt-shift-lens-ts-e-243-5l-version-ii-review/


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## stevelee (May 6, 2021)

”To infinity and beyond!”


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## Aaron D (May 6, 2021)

OK speaking only from my own perspective as an architectural photographer, I don't need or want auto focus or the added expense and complexity it brings. And speed--but that's another issue.

The very last thing I want is the lens trying to decide what needs to be sharp. After I've leveled everything, shifted, and composed--changed my mind and done it all that again, THEN I focus. Once. And the new to R focusing aid, plus the new to R5 16x zoom IN FINDER are wonderful additions! 

If Canon wants to do somthing truly useful they will add a tripod foot to keep the lens stationary while the camera shifts.


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## landscaper (May 6, 2021)

Sorry CANON I couldn't wait the seven years between high resolution body updates (2015 - 2022)

My EF Tilt Shift Lenses - TSE 24mm and TSE 50 Macro are Working Brilliantly on my New Fuji GFX 100s with the TechArt Adapter.

Telephoto is abit of a Challenge in the GFX World though - both in expense and weight.
Depth of Field is substantially shallower - Great for portraits But not ideal for Landscape Hyperfocal distance shots

Sorry I couldn't have held out for what will probably be a remarkable camera, but Seven Years is allittle too long to wait for an Upgrade to my Canon 50dsr that I sold in 2019 in anticipation of the rumoured 
RS high resolution model

I'm sure Sony and Fuji are already in development of the next 150 and 200 Megapixel Sensors with smaller pixel pitch and greater dynamic range 

I may still buy a Canon RS or R5S or whatever they call the new hi rez body 
to pair with the RF 100-500 for my telephoto needs in Landscape and Nature photography


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## privatebydesign (May 6, 2021)

landscaper said:


> Sorry CANON I couldn't wait the seven years between high resolution body updates (2015 - 2022)
> 
> My EF Tilt Shift Lenses - TSE 24mm and TSE 50 Macro are Working Brilliantly on my New Fuji GFX 100s with the TechArt Adapter.
> 
> ...


Out of interest, what are you getting out of 100mp that you couldn't get out of 50? On an actual practical day to day usage? 

There is approximately 2/3 stop difference in dof between a GFX sensor and a FF sensor.


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## landscaper (May 6, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Out of interest, what are you getting out of 100mp that you couldn't get out of 50? On an actual practical day to day usage?
> 
> There is approximately 2/3 stop difference in dof between a GFX sensor and a FF sensor.



Don't have time right now to do the precise Math but :

Allows me to Print my 60" x 90" Fine Art Prints at 300 dpi / ppi 

On the CANON PROGRAF PRO-6000
PRINTER

Clients and myself like prints that you can really step close into and appreciate fine detail

Also Hallway Prints force people to view my images close up 

PIXEL SHIFTED images @ 400 Megapixel 
Allow for even more Post cropping and post processing options


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## privatebydesign (May 6, 2021)

landscaper said:


> Don't have time right now to do the precise Math but :
> 
> Allows me to Print my 60" x 90" Fine Art Prints at 300 dpi / ppi
> 
> ...


How often are you selling 60" x 90" prints? Maths wise you are way off, at 300dpi you get a native 39” x 29” by the way.

But that isn't really the point, the point is Canon are in the mass market, you are very much in a niche market that is filled by a niche market company, even if Canon had a camera to make you happy about MP it still wouldn't have been medium format. All is well in the world.


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## Jack Douglas (May 6, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I suggest you do some research on what determines the resolution of optical systems (edit: start with PBD's post above!). With modern cameras and lenses, there is no such thing as 'empty resolution', increased sensor resolution always results in increased system resolution, even of the increase is not linear. Then you threw in, 'they have a wider FoV' like that was an explanation.
> 
> The same is not true for some of the optical systems I work with; for example, on a microscope with a standard Zeiss upright research scope optical train, a 100x NA=1.4 oil-immersion microscope objective, even when paired with a NA=1.4 oil-top condenser, can be fully resolved by a sVGA-resolution image sensor when imaging samples with visible light wavelengths. Anything above 800x600 is truly empty resolution. Incidentally, in the case of microscope objectives FoV does matter – while a 100x objective only needs 0.5 MP to fully resolve it, a 1.25x objective needs ~2.5MP to fully resolve the image (which is why the Zeiss microscope cameras costing far more than a Canon 1-series use low-MP 1/3" CCD sensors).


Neuro you never fail to amaze me... in various ways. 

Jack


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## dolina (May 6, 2021)

I would be very surprised if any tilt shift will get updated before any other L lens.

The L lens I've seen updated thus far are based on which SKU sold the most units or has the most profit margins.

Would also be surprised if we will see a higher MP full frame body coming out in 2021.


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## JohnC (May 7, 2021)

Antono Refa said:


> AFAIK, the TS-E 17mm requires a 150mm square filter. I would be surprised if a 14mm tilt-shift could do with smaller front filters. IIRC, the TS-E lenses have plenty of space next to the mount for drop in filters, so I hope for a drop in filter.


Yes the 150 will work but it is an imperfect solution for sure. Drop in is the way to go but we will see (unless they change front element design which they may)


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## neuroanatomist (May 7, 2021)

Antono Refa said:


> AFAIK, the TS-E 17mm requires a 150mm square filter. I would be surprised if a 14mm tilt-shift could do with smaller front filters. IIRC, the TS-E lenses have plenty of space next to the mount for drop in filters, so I hope for a drop in filter.


Round works, I use the Wonderpana 145 mm ‘salad plates’ with my TS-E 17.

There’s not ‘plenty of space on the current versions. There’s room for a TC to go in the rear mount, sure, but I’m not sure there’s enough room for a filter. Also, the part of the barrel next to the mount is where the shift knob is (with the shift lock knob opposite). Only when the current lenses are put on an R body is there room for a drop in, in the mount adapter.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (May 7, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> I have a 24 mm TS-E II and chose it because it was a more flexible focal length and could easily take filter. The bulbous 17mm and a more complex filter set up pushed me infavour of the 24mm. Can I ask the owners of a 17mm whether a 14mm is attractive and where would it be used to best advantage. Is it interiors or would it also be desirable for architecture?


IMO you barely even need tilt for a 14mm, DoF is already excellent and at most you'd need 1-2 degrees. Shift is very useful however at any FL. A 24mm fully shifted gives a HFOV aprroximately equal to a 14.5mm FL anyway. I would rather a 14 f/1.8 that I can also use for low light interiors and astro, that will be lighter and cheaper.


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## Del Paso (May 7, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Are you in Arkansas?


Unfortunately not, but in France, region Alsace (white wines, foie gras, patisserie etc...)
But after covid, Arkansas in a State I certainly would like to visit. But thanks to Canon and Leica, I'll have to delay that: I'm broke...


----------



## melgross (May 7, 2021)

amorse said:


> I may be misunderstanding your comment (forgive me if that's so!), but I think the benefit of a tilt shift being paired with a higher resolution camera is not necessarily that the glass is sharp enough to use with such high resolution, but rather a tilt shift lens gives you some other options to manage loss of sharpness caused by diffraction.
> 
> Images produced by a very high resolution sensor may start losing sharpness at commonly used apertures (when images are viewed at full size). As the sensor resolution goes up, diffraction may become more visible at lower apertures when images are viewed at full size. For instance, according to a photopills calculator, a 100MP sensor may have some visual diffraction at f/5.6. Now, if you're losing sharpness from f/5.6 and upwards, it may be difficult to keep some scenes with more depth in sharp focus without going to a higher aperture or focus stacking. A tilt shift lens, however, can let you change the plane of focus to some degree to enable more of the scene to be in focus at a lower aperture.
> 
> That's based on my very limited (and likely flawed) understanding of tilt shift lenses, but to my understanding you may need a tilt shift to get all the sharpness that a very high resolution sensor can deliver.


I understand what you’re saying. But higher sharpness lenses are more highly corrected, which normally leads to a wider stop being where diffraction begins. So that really would help. And what does that have to do with a higher definition sensor? Lower rez sensors conceal diffraction,mane other lens defects better. High Rez sensors expose them more.

‘’besides, you do t need a higher rez camera to use a high Rez lens of any kind. If anything, it would be worse. I believe the introduction of them together is a coincidenc.


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## chasingrealness (May 7, 2021)

unfocused said:


> I'm happy for those who want these lenses. I just wish Canon would actually make the lenses they have already released. I'm getting a little tired of "on backorder," "more coming soon," and "released in limited quantity."


Devil’s advocate here, but personally, I am thankful to Canon for being slow to deliver these lenses. It’s saved me from having to explain to my wife why I impulse bought $6,500 in new lenses more than once. 

I wish I were joking …


----------



## unfocused (May 7, 2021)

chasingrealness said:


> Devil’s advocate here, but personally, I am thankful to Canon for being slow to deliver these lenses. It’s saved me from having to explain to my wife why I impulse bought $6,500 in new lenses more than once.
> 
> I wish I were joking …


Ha. I've been there.

For several years, I was able to get by with my wife thinking I had two lenses, one black one and one white one. But, eventually, that caught up to me. Then I found a better solution. 

I started buying her cameras and gradually upgrading them as her skills improved. Eventually it got to the point where she was "borrowing" my lenses and I had to but a second 100-400. Now, she never questions my purchases, but the downside is I have to buy two of everything! To add insult to injury, she's a better bird photographer than I am.


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## Ozarker (May 7, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Ha. I've been there.
> 
> For several years, I was able to get by with my wife thinking I had two lenses, one black one and one white one. But, eventually, that caught up to me. Then I found a better solution.
> 
> I started buying her cameras and gradually upgrading them as her skills improved. Eventually it got to the point where she was "borrowing" my lenses and I had to but a second 100-400. Now, she never questions my purchases, but the downside is I have to buy two of everything! To add insult to injury, she's a better bird photographer than I am.


Fortunately, my wife has almost no interest in my photography hobby. Unfortunately, she has no interest in the hobby for herself either. I like to believe the fact that I got her an Olympus is the reason, but that's not true. She's perfectly happy with photos from the iPhone, and doesn't mind being sacrilegious.


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## neuroanatomist (May 7, 2021)

melgross said:


> But higher sharpness lenses are more highly corrected, which normally leads to a wider stop being where diffraction begins.


You remind me of DxOMark, who's Lens Score is based on dynamic range, color depth and light transmission. Two of those parameters have nothing to do with the lens. 

Lens corrections for various aberrations have no effect on diffraction, since that is determined solely by the diameter of the iris diaphragm (and the effect of that diffraction on the final image is determined by the sensor's ability to resolve the diffraction of the image, which is inversely proportional to pixel density).

I suggest you stop commenting on optics, it's clear there are major gaps in your comprehension of the relevant principles.


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## neuroanatomist (May 7, 2021)

Del Paso said:


> Unfortunately not, but in France, region Alsace (white wines, foie gras, patisserie etc...)


I quite enjoyed Colmar!


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## chasingrealness (May 7, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Ha. I've been there.
> 
> For several years, I was able to get by with my wife thinking I had two lenses, one black one and one white one. But, eventually, that caught up to me. Then I found a better solution.
> 
> I started buying her cameras and gradually upgrading them as her skills improved. Eventually it got to the point where she was "borrowing" my lenses and I had to but a second 100-400. Now, she never questions my purchases, but the downside is I have to buy two of everything! To add insult to injury, she's a better bird photographer than I am.


oh the tangled web we weave…


----------



## amorse (May 7, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Ha. I've been there.
> 
> For several years, I was able to get by with my wife thinking I had two lenses, one black one and one white one. But, eventually, that caught up to me. Then I found a better solution.
> 
> I started buying her cameras and gradually upgrading them as her skills improved. Eventually it got to the point where she was "borrowing" my lenses and I had to but a second 100-400. Now, she never questions my purchases, but the downside is I have to buy two of everything! To add insult to injury, she's a better bird photographer than I am.


I got caught on my transition from a 6D to a 5DIV only because I forgot not to use the touch screen in front of my partner. Now I just give notice with approximate timeframes, which tends to go better for everyone!


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## keithcooper (May 7, 2021)

Several people have queried the uses of lots of MP and wide T/S lenses like a 14mm.
Well... a paying architectural job turned up the other day. Whilst I took a TS-E17/24 and 1.4x (for ~34mm t/s) with the 5Ds I only actually used the 17mm. The client has the aptitude to appreciate wide shots at 50MP give a lot of cropping options for web and promo use - note that some clients also need shots taken with longer lenses to get past suits with zero ability to mentally crop an image (their description, not mine ;-) )
With a few up/down stitches in the mix, I could have happily used an R5, but that's not any significant benefit in this work vs. a working 5Ds. During the work I was thinking of where 14mm would be too wide - not that often if used with care.

I was also thinking of how AF might work.
I took about 120 shots including about 6 with tilt.
So, for most of my wide TS-E shots I'm using just shift, so 'normal' AF is OK. The tilt shots just needed my tilt tables to give the horizontal offset of the focal plane for sideways tilt - placed along some contol panels in a plant room (about 5 degrees for these shots IIRC ... EXIF would be nice)
For tilt, I look at the Canon patents for some inspiration. There is one in particular where you can specify two points on a plane and the camera will set the tilt and focus to match the focal plane. To do this, the camera needs to know the distance to the two points and work out if it is possible to match the focal plane to what is required. I imagine a version of my normal iterative close tilt focus technique could be used. By having both tilt and focus motorised this would be quite simple.
However, I note that the two point iterative method only works if the rotation of the lens is such that the focal plane matches the plane of the subject. A three point AF for tilt would require the rotation of the lens mount to be motorised as well.
If Canon does go for some more complex AF solution, I eagerly await both its interface design and their attempts at explaining it ;-)


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## Ozarker (May 7, 2021)

digigal said:


> Just ordered the book--too bad the shipping to the US is almost as much as the book!  Looking forward to learning more about these lenses. May rent one some day to play around with.
> Catherine


Free shipping on Amazon.


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## JasonL (May 8, 2021)

keithcooper said:


> AF will be interesting, as well as how they implement the interface to control it with tilt.
> 
> In teaching people the use of tilt and shift, the concept consistently most difficult for even experienced photographers to 'get' is that with tilt the distance scale no longer has a defined meaning with respect to distances. Whereas with shift, you can focus and then add shift -or the other way round. The positioning of the tilted focus plane is dependent on both tilt angle and the setting of the focus ring together. This interaction seems more conceptually difficult, leading to people just randomly changing tilt after focusing or adding tilt and focusing to 'see what happens' Whilst it can work, there is all too often no deeper understanding, making it difficult to repeat effects or apply them consistently in different settings.
> 
> ...



I don't think the concept is that hard to grasp. What is difficult is visualizing and applying it in the field without trial and error. For sharp images front to back (i.e. landscapes - I use the Canon 24 3.5 II and 50 2.8 TS/E's) I used to focus on the foreground, then tilt until the background was in focus. Then move back to foreground (which would now be out of focus), refocus the foreground, then move back to background (which would now be out of focus) and tilt back in the opposite direction until in focus. Repeat this four or five times (or more), dialing in the ratio of foreground focus to tilt, until everything is in focus. Now I use an app called Tilt Calculator on my phone. Using a combination of focal length, focus distance, vertical distance distance from the ground (or subject) to the lens, and the angle of the camera body (lay the phone against the camera body and the app measures the angle) it calculates the tilt which gets you very close initially. Maybe a quick tweak at times, but it is much, much quicker.


----------



## chasingrealness (May 8, 2021)

keithcooper said:


> Several people have queried the uses of lots of MP and wide T/S lenses like a 14mm.
> Well... a paying architectural job turned up the other day. Whilst I took a TS-E17/24 and 1.4x (for ~34mm t/s) with the 5Ds I only actually used the 17mm. The client has the aptitude to appreciate wide shots at 50MP give a lot of cropping options for web and promo use - note that some clients also need shots taken with longer lenses to get past suits with zero ability to mentally crop an image (their description, not mine ;-) )
> With a few up/down stitches in the mix, I could have happily used an R5, but that's not any significant benefit in this work vs. a working 5Ds. During the work I was thinking of where 14mm would be too wide - not that often if used with care.
> 
> ...


Great. I’m now going to spend my whole Saturday digging through YouTube watching TS tutorials and architectural photography channels all thanks to this thought-provoking comment.


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## keithcooper (May 8, 2021)

JasonL said:


> I don't think the concept is that hard to grasp. What is difficult is visualizing and applying it in the field without trial and error. For sharp images front to back (i.e. landscapes - I use the Canon 24 3.5 II and 50 2.8 TS/E's) I used to focus on the foreground, then tilt until the background was in focus. Then move back to foreground (which would now be out of focus), refocus the foreground, then move back to background (which would now be out of focus) and tilt back in the opposite direction until in focus. Repeat this four or five times (or more), dialing in the ratio of foreground focus to tilt, until everything is in focus. Now I use an app called Tilt Calculator on my phone. Using a combination of focal length, focus distance, vertical distance distance from the ground (or subject) to the lens, and the angle of the camera body (lay the phone against the camera body and the app measures the angle) it calculates the tilt which gets you very close initially. Maybe a quick tweak at times, but it is much, much quicker.


You are lucky in having an idea what to do with regards to tilt... this is not common
I base my note on experience teaching where I have observed a wide variety of 'keep fiddling until it works' techniques ;-)


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## Sporgon (May 8, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Ha. I've been there.
> 
> For several years, I was able to get by with my wife thinking I had two lenses, one black one and one white one.


It would be really helpful if Canon made all their lenses in both black and white versions. Then my only lens could always be one or the other colour irrespective of which one of my only lens I bring out, and no one know any different.
Lenses are very much like handbags; you never have enough, though I’ve yet to meet a woman who would comprehend this.


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## keithcooper (May 8, 2021)

chasingrealness said:


> Great. I’m now going to spend my whole Saturday digging through YouTube watching TS tutorials and architectural photography channels all thanks to this thought-provoking comment.


I've a playlist of my T/S related videos if it's of interest?


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2Ud6AP-Z5JBYRMYWMv2CRoZSN9P1G0a4


I've also a T/S index page of articles/ reviews 








Tilt and shift lens articles, reviews and tutorials by Keith Cooper


Articles & reviews about tilt/shift lenses & useage. Lens reviews and practical tutorials showing how to use tilt and shift lenses & adapters




www.northlight-images.co.uk


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## Del Paso (May 8, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I quite enjoyed Colmar!
> 
> View attachment 197461


Nice picture of "la petite Venise" !


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## stevelee (May 8, 2021)

JasonL said:


> I don't think the concept is that hard to grasp. What is difficult is visualizing and applying it in the field without trial and error. For sharp images front to back (i.e. landscapes - I use the Canon 24 3.5 II and 50 2.8 TS/E's) I used to focus on the foreground, then tilt until the background was in focus. Then move back to foreground (which would now be out of focus), refocus the foreground, then move back to background (which would now be out of focus) and tilt back in the opposite direction until in focus. Repeat this four or five times (or more), dialing in the ratio of foreground focus to tilt, until everything is in focus. Now I use an app called Tilt Calculator on my phone. Using a combination of focal length, focus distance, vertical distance distance from the ground (or subject) to the lens, and the angle of the camera body (lay the phone against the camera body and the app measures the angle) it calculates the tilt which gets you very close initially. Maybe a quick tweak at times, but it is much, much quicker.


I used the back and forth focus method quite successfully. I was pleasantly surprised how quickly I converged on sharp focus. Maybe I had absorbed enough from Keith that I intuitively started off in good ballpark settings. Sometimes I was surprised by how little tilt I needed.


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## chasingrealness (May 9, 2021)

keithcooper said:


> I've a playlist of my T/S related videos if it's of interest?
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2Ud6AP-Z5JBYRMYWMv2CRoZSN9P1G0a4
> ...


Awesome thanks!!


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## JasonL (May 9, 2021)

stevelee said:


> I used the back and forth focus method quite successfully. I was pleasantly surprised how quickly I converged on sharp focus. Maybe I had absorbed enough from Keith that I intuitively started off in good ballpark settings. Sometimes I was surprised by how little tilt I needed.


Agreed. If I have my camera at eye level on a tripod using the 24 3.5 II and the sensor plane is perpendicular to the ground, there is very little tilt needed to get the frame sharp from front to back. Using the 50 2.8 at about 1.5 feet above the ground in more intimate scenes with the sensor plane anywhere from 15-20 degrees off perpendicular axis from the ground takes quite a bit more tilt and fiddling back and forth with focus. This is where the Tilt Calculator app really shines.


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## stevelee (May 9, 2021)

JasonL said:


> Agreed. If I have my camera at eye level on a tripod using the 24 3.5 II and the sensor plane is perpendicular to the ground, there is very little tilt needed to get the frame sharp from front to back. Using the 50 2.8 at about 1.5 feet above the ground in more intimate scenes with the sensor plane anywhere from 15-20 degrees off perpendicular axis from the ground takes quite a bit more tilt and fiddling back and forth with focus. This is where the Tilt Calculator app really shines.


I have rented both the 24mm and the 17mm, and have considered renting longer lenses. But I don't have enough of an idea of what I would do with them to decide which others I might want to try, if any. When and why do you use the 50mm instead of the 24mm? Amy suggestions on what I might want to do with other lenses over a week or two?


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## privatebydesign (May 9, 2021)

I haven't found the need for a tilt calculator, I use Keith's Tilt Tables and that works well enough given the woefully inadequate tilt range of the Canon TS-E's, compared to traditional tilt angles, and the coarseness of the tilt adjustment and scales.








Using lens tilt on your digital SLR what does it do and how to set it


Optimal focusing techniques when you are using a tilt/shift lens on a camera. Using lens tilt with lenses directly attached and via an adapter.




www.northlight-images.co.uk


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## keithcooper (May 9, 2021)

JasonL said:


> Agreed. If I have my camera at eye level on a tripod using the 24 3.5 II and the sensor plane is perpendicular to the ground, there is very little tilt needed to get the frame sharp from front to back. Using the 50 2.8 at about 1.5 feet above the ground in more intimate scenes with the sensor plane anywhere from 15-20 degrees off perpendicular axis from the ground takes quite a bit more tilt and fiddling back and forth with focus. This is where the Tilt Calculator app really shines.


I keep this laminated in my bag




It's the lenses I currently can use with tilt. The 35/55/80/210 are Mamiya645 lenses I use with an adapter

It's from a spreadsheet that can be customised to whatever focal lengths you have available. It has the distinct advantage of not needing charging and not needing my reading glasses to use. You can also spot easy to remember values.

So, for example with the TS-E17... If I want the plane of focus (focus ring set at infinity for all values above) to pass 50 cm from the lens [to the side] I need just 2 degrees of tilt.
The plane passes the camera below (ground?) for downwards tilt or any other plane if the lens is rotated

Here's the version with just current Canon lenses from when I was testing the new ones



BTW there is a feet and inches version available ;-)

So, for this example (17), with the lens tilted to the right, the distance from the centre of the camera optical axis was perhaps 40cm (just over a foot) from the plane of the panel.




You estimate the distance parallel to the back of the camera, to where it intersects the subject plane.

The tilt table says 2.4 degrees. Now you cant set the lenses that precisely (another question for the RF tilt/shift?) so I take it as a bit over 2 degrees

However, with the camera pointing the way it does, the desired plane cuts across diagonally in front.
Simply changing the focus setting swings the focal plane to run along the panel. Using f/10 reduces vignetting and makes any use of tilt less obvious.

Why the shot? It's for an architectural and design company who had just refurbished a hospital. Most of the job was gleaming new corridors, rooms and machines that go ping, but the various plant rooms needed assorted pics.

This is just one that goes with some flat-on shots - most of which just needed shift. I do ones like this knowing that bits will be chopped out for web/article use - this is where supplying big images also helps give whoever gets the pics of this job (~120) to work with some flexibility.


Oh, and yes, there was a thought that I might have something to use in an article explaining some aspect of tilt/shift ;-)

If I'm honest, I much prefer looking around newly installed plant, than spotless corridors ;-)


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## JasonL (May 9, 2021)

stevelee said:


> I have rented both the 24mm and the 17mm, and have considered renting longer lenses. But I don't have enough of an idea of what I would do with them to decide which others I might want to try, if any. When and why do you use the 50mm instead of the 24mm? Amy suggestions on what I might want to do with other lenses over a week or two?


I particularly like the 50mm field of view for landscape/nature images - just a personal preference. That said, I also like the 35mm field of view (I'm not really a wide/super wide user) so if you orient the camera in portrait with the 50 TS attached and stitch the middle, left shifted and right shifted images together, the resulting field of view is about 35mm. The resolution of the stitched image is fairly large which gives cropping/printing options and the 50 TS is sharp edge to edge even when shifted to the max. Generally speaking, the image quality of the 50 TS is outstanding and inspiring. I regularly attach a 1.4x III to give around a 70mm field of view and easily close the IQ gap in post processing. The 50mm is also a macro lens (not sure of the magnification, etc. I just know that you can get pretty close lol) so that adds a little more versatility.


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## JasonL (May 9, 2021)

keithcooper said:


> I keep this laminated in my bag
> 
> View attachment 197500
> 
> ...



"So, for example with the TS-E17... If I want the plane of focus (focus ring set at infinity for all values above) to pass 50 cm from the lens I need just 2 degrees of tilt."

Isn't J the vertical distance measured from the camera lens straight down to where it intersects the focal plane? I assume you are referencing the 0.50 in the far left column of the chart (Distance J) when mentioning passing the plane of focus 50cm from the lens.


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## keithcooper (May 9, 2021)

JasonL said:


> "So, for example with the TS-E17... If I want the plane of focus (focus ring set at infinity for all values above) to pass 50 cm from the lens I need just 2 degrees of tilt."
> 
> Isn't J the vertical distance measured from the camera lens straight down to where it intersects the focal plane? I assume you are referencing the 0.50 in the far left column of the chart (Distance J) when mentioning passing the plane of focus 50cm from the lens.


Thanks - I should have written "50cm to the side of the lens" to make this clearer _- just added this_

J is the distance in the direction of tilt, so in this case, with the lens tilted to the right the focal plane (at infinity focus) is to the right of the camera. It is only down when the lens is tilted downwards (such as to run the plane along the ground).

It is actually the distance from the centre of the lens on the optical axis of the camera. Now, with complications as to what counts as the centre of the lens, these tables become increasingly awkward to use at short J distances

As a result, at short distances I use them as giving me a starting point for tilt

For close up and more precise work I switch to an iterative approach as described here



http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/alternative-focus-technique-for-tilted-lens/



Or, for even more precision with an arbitrary plane









Setting the tilt axis for tilt-shift lenses at angles other than vertical or horizontal


Setting the tilt axis for tilt-shift lenses to an arbitrary angle other than vertical or horizontal, so as to match the desired plane of focus for subjects.




www.northlight-images.co.uk


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## privatebydesign (May 9, 2021)

I think it is long past time in this thread for the Merklinger gif's!

The first shows the effect on the plane of focus when tilting a lens, the second what happens to the plane of focus when a tilted lens' focus is changed.

The first is what everybody means when they say the Scheimpflug Principle because that is what it is, the second is the really cool part, changing focus, that most people don't 'get'.


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## grilled_rooster (May 10, 2021)

Actually, i don't get it. Why do i need AF in my TS lense?
The fun of shooting with a TS lense is to have full control of everything. How is AF making a TS better? I mean: i want to decide what is in focus. AF isn't able to decide how i want to compose my picture.
I'm happy with my TS-E 45 and my TS-E 24 II on my EOS R.


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## NKD (May 10, 2021)

Getting quite excited reading these comments about tilt & possibly an AF link..
Will these new AF lenses & camera body's firmware have the tech to assist with tilt focus compositing!
I hope so, as I have just disregarded tilt & used shift only, due to speed & time allowance on site

Be great if this feature is similar to CaptureOne's focus assistance, where it notifies you of the average best focus achieved.
Possibly set x2 AF points on the rear of the camera, compositing a shot straight on, then tilt the lens manually, until the camera tells you the best average focus is achieved!
Take my money.

Further, I can imagine that AF would be desirable if a firmware has the option to focus stack automatically, product shots etc.. Later taken into Helicon Focus
Although this would be more desirable for the possible RF versions the 50 / 90 / 135


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## Ozarker (May 10, 2021)

grilled_rooster said:


> Actually, i don't get it. Why do i need AF in my TS lense?
> The fun of shooting with a TS lense is to have full control of everything. How is AF making a TS better? I mean: i want to decide what is in focus. AF isn't able to decide how i want to compose my picture.
> I'm happy with my TS-E 45 and my TS-E 24 II on my EOS R.


I believe there will be an option for manual focus. Probably, AF will be more for those times when one wants to use the TS lens as a regular lens?


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## keithcooper (May 10, 2021)

grilled_rooster said:


> Actually, i don't get it. Why do i need AF in my TS lense?
> The fun of shooting with a TS lense is to have full control of everything. How is AF making a TS better? I mean: i want to decide what is in focus. AF isn't able to decide how i want to compose my picture.
> I'm happy with my TS-E 45 and my TS-E 24 II on my EOS R.


Maybe you don't need it? I'm happy with using an adapted Mamiya 645 lens - aperture ring as well

It all depends on just what the AF does. If combined with motorised tilt, it could do some nifty tricks with the optimal settings for arbitrarily placing the plane of focus. I'l be honest and say that relatively few photographers really get the precise ways you can use tilt. AF for a tilted lens is rotation of the plane of focus, not what we normally think of as focusing (see the gifs posted earlier)

With just 'normal' AF it makes it just a bit easier to use as a normal wide lens. If it also has shift in EXIF then it allows for lens correction which could be very useful on an ultra-wide with shift. I'd be very happy for (optional) automation of correction for strongly shifted images, when precisely straight lines matter


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## cayenne (May 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Excited for a 14mm TS lens. I almost never shoot my TS-E lenses handheld, so honestly the AF will be nice to have but really not required. Probably would not replace my TS-E 24L II, but would be tempted to replace my TS-E 17L with a TS-R 14L.


Do these give you the option for manual focus? Can you turn AF off and do manual focus and manual aperture like the previous models?

cayenne


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## neuroanatomist (May 10, 2021)

cayenne said:


> Do these give you the option for manual focus? Can you turn AF off and do manual focus and manual aperture like the previous models?
> 
> cayenne


I'm certain AF will be able to be turned off. However, if the MF is focus-by-wire (where the focus ring is not mechanically coupled to the focus group, but rather turning the ring activates actuators that drive the focus motor, like the old 85L II), some people will surely not like the feel of that. We won't know until Canon provides more details.

EF-mount TS lenses do not have a manual aperture control, the -E in TS-E is for electronic aperture. I'm equally certain that a TS-R lens will have electronic aperture control and no manual option for that, regardless of how the AF works.


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## cayenne (May 10, 2021)

unfocused said:


> While the R5, R6, 100-500 zoom, batteries for the R5&6, EF adapters for the R system, battery grips for the R5&6, 800 f11, 600 f11, 70-200 2.8 zoom, etc. might be considered "niche" items in the sense that the entire R system is a niche product, none of them are at risk of sitting in warehouses.


I just found out that one of the last of the camera stores in this area quit selling ALL camera gear and joined the others that are now only print shops.
So, in this area the major places to buy camera gear locally from local stores...are no more, so online is the way to go for anything camera.

Kinda sucks that you can't try holding it in hand before buying it, but, I still prefer online...with the B&H store card (I can't bring myself to say the stupid name), you can avoid paying sales tax, and that makes it VERY attractive to pay.

I tend to only buy when I have cash in hand, so this gets paid off monthly, so no interest fees.

C


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## cayenne (May 10, 2021)

digigal said:


> Just ordered the book--too bad the shipping to the US is almost as much as the book!  Looking forward to learning more about these lenses. May rent one some day to play around with.
> Catherine


Is this the book?

Photography with Tilt and Shift Lenses: Art and Techniques

If so, not sure what you are looking at for US, as that with Amazon Prime, shipping is free, so for $31.46 plus your local sales tax...doesn't look too bad of a deal.

What price and where are you looking?

I'd been eyeballing this myself...

Looks like the the author is on here, @keithcooper - About that book...is it only tilt shift lenses, or do you also include how it works with say, view cameras with bellows where you can tilt, shift, rise/fall...etc?

I've been toying with the idea of getting a 4x5 camera...I already have some LF lenses, and using adapters out there to use my cameras as basically a "digital back"....and doing the movements on my FF and digital MF camera systems.

Thanks in advance!!

cayenne


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## cayenne (May 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I'm certain AF will be able to be turned off. However, if the MF is focus-by-wire (where the focus ring is not mechanically coupled to the focus group, but rather turning the ring activates actuators that drive the focus motor, like the old 85L II), some people will surely not like the feel of that. We won't know until Canon provides more details.
> 
> EF-mount TS lenses do not have a manual aperture control, the -E in TS-E is for electronic aperture. I'm equally certain that a TS-R lens will have electronic aperture control and no manual option for that, regardless of how the AF works.


OH wow...thanks, I didn't know that about the aperture!!!
:O

Well, damn...I'd rather have a FULL manual TS lens.

I've been eyeballing a TS adapter to allow use of my Hasselblad V system lenses...which would be fully manual, I'm curious the results I could get out of that quality wise...

C


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## keithcooper (May 11, 2021)

cayenne said:


> Is this the book?
> 
> Photography with Tilt and Shift Lenses: Art and Techniques
> 
> ...


Yes - in this very thread... 



cayenne said:


> About that book...is it only tilt shift lenses, or do you also include how it works with say, view cameras with bellows where you can tilt, shift, rise/fall...etc?



No, purely lenses/adapters with tilt and/or shift movements on DSLRs/Mirrorless

You can of course have tilt/swing/rise/fall/shift with these lenses, however the geometry is somewhat more varied with the full movements of a view camera.




cayenne said:


> I've been toying with the idea of getting a 4x5 camera...I already have some LF lenses, and using adapters out there to use my cameras as basically a "digital back"....and doing the movements on my FF and digital MF camera systems.



You mean like this?



That's my old 1Ds on the back with an anglefinder C attached.

from








A Canon MPP view camera adapter. DSLR used on a large format camera


Making an adapter to fit a DSLR camera to the back of a 4x5 view camera, using the existing lens and camera movements. Construction details and parts used.




www.northlight-images.co.uk








I did this partly to learn more about movements... Which is what led to my articles and the book ;-)

The camera still sits in my office - I was thinking of making a new rear plate for RF mount...

If you look at movements of just the front standard then it's similar to using a T/S lens.


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## keithcooper (May 11, 2021)

cayenne said:


> OH wow...thanks, I didn't know that about the aperture!!!
> :O
> 
> Well, damn...I'd rather have a FULL manual TS lens.
> ...


Quite good - see this using my M645 lenses









Fotodiox tilt-shift lens adapter - using MF lenses on a mirrorless camera


Review of the Fotodiox TLT ROKR tilt-shift lens adapter for mounting medium format lenses on mirrorless cameras. M645 to Canon RF and M645 to Nikon Z




www.northlight-images.co.uk


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## st jack photography (May 11, 2021)

john1970 said:


> I am interested in buying a T/S lens for the RF mount, but am undecided on which focal length although I am leaning towards the 24 mm focal length.


24mm is likely the best starter ts. I started with a 45mm, then went to 90 and 135, but I think 24 is best to start with, depending on preferred shoot subjects. 17 is very wide, unless you do real estate. With a 24mm you can still get the dollhouse model effects on exterior landscapes, and it or the 45 is perhaps the most versatile. A 24 will correct a lot more than one thinks. Even the 45mm is quite workable outside, although I used it mainly for medium-sized products in-studio.


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## Bonich (May 11, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I believe there will be an option for manual focus. Probably, AF will be more for those times when one wants to use the TS lens as a regular lens?


AF is needed for fast and reliable focus stacking this is absolutely of relevance using a TS lens tilted or shifted.


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## cayenne (May 11, 2021)

keithcooper said:


> Yes - in this very thread...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OH wow...that is VERY cool!!!

I'll read up on it. I have no tools and no DIY skills, but I have friends that do. I may try to get them to help me out with something like this....

VERY interesting!!

C


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## keithcooper (May 11, 2021)

cayenne said:


> OH wow...that is VERY cool!!!
> 
> I'll read up on it. I have no tools and no DIY skills, but I have friends that do. I may try to get them to help me out with something like this....
> 
> ...


My skills for this one required a hacksaw, electric hand drill and a half round file. Oh, and some epoxy...

The biggest impediment for practical use was the need to recess the adapter to allow for the drip of the camera. Also, you realise just how big the mirror box is and how much vignetting it and the mount introduces.

It should be better with the shorter flange distance of the RF mount. The other difficulty is the long focal length of even quite wide lenses, with the rear of the lens sticking out quite a bit. Whilst it was fun to try, it's no coincidence that I now have a useful collection of tilt/shift lenses for paying work...


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## Skux (May 13, 2021)

Soon I'll be able to take every photo at 20mm and just crop in!


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## storkchen (May 13, 2021)

A 14mm TS with AF?? Why? For tilt-shift action photography?


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## melgross (May 13, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> You remind me of DxOMark, who's Lens Score is based on dynamic range, color depth and light transmission. Two of those parameters have nothing to do with the lens.
> 
> Lens corrections for various aberrations have no effect on diffraction, since that is determined solely by the diameter of the iris diaphragm (and the effect of that diffraction on the final image is determined by the sensor's ability to resolve the diffraction of the image, which is inversely proportional to pixel density).
> 
> I suggest you stop commenting on optics, it's clear there are major gaps in your comprehension of the relevant principles.


You seem to be the one with defects. What I’ve said is correct. And yes, I had a year of optics when I took physics.


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## neuroanatomist (May 13, 2021)

melgross said:


> You seem to be the one with defects. What I’ve said is correct. And yes, I had a year of optics when I took physics.


Taking a class doesn’t automatically confer understanding, and clearly didn’t in your case. Nor does participating in a forum confer civility, which you clearly lack. Since I have no desire to engage further with your rudeness, I’m out. Enjoy your bubble of ignorance.


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