# Canon EOS Rebel T5i Leaks



## stipotle (Mar 19, 2013)

http://digicame-info.com/2013/03/eos-kiss-x7i.html/

Anybody want to get upset? 
..or start to despair?


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## CanoSony (Mar 19, 2013)

For sale: My canon gear.


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## Albi86 (Mar 19, 2013)

Honestly it looks very plausible. I was betting the 700D would have been crappy. My guess is the 70D will be acceptable but overpriced while the 7d2 will be very very good and very very expensive.

In the end the 7D line will keep the crown in the aps-c war but at a prohibitive price, while the 70D will struggle against the D7100 in terms of value and performance. IMHO of course


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## RS2021 (Mar 19, 2013)

Canon will squeeze out the last drop of commercial value from this line of sensors before they move to the next generation. They is after all a commercial company trying to eek out a profit.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 19, 2013)

RS2021 said:


> Canon will squeeze out the last drop of commercial value from this line of sensors before they move to the next generation. They is after all a commercial company trying to eek out a profit.


Since the new hybrid sensor has been around almost a year now, I'd expect to see it for a while. Its not the same sensor as in the older cameras.
Some think that the number of pixels defines sensor technology. That's why we had megapixel wars, because the uneducated masses think that more is always better.
So far, no one has moved away from the basic silicon technology, no black silicon or other revolutionary technology. There are slightly different versions of it, but no new tech has come out, and none is on the horizon.
Even the three layer foveon sensors use old tech silicon.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 19, 2013)

```
<div name="googleone_share_1" style="position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;"><g:plusone size="tall" count="1" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/03/canon-eos-rebel-t5i-leaks/"></g:plusone></div><div style="float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;"><a href="https://twitter.com/share" class="twitter-share-button" data-count="vertical" data-url="http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/03/canon-eos-rebel-t5i-leaks/">Tweet</a></div>
<p><strong>A New Rebel T5i

</strong>A new Rebel will also appear this week, the replace to the EOS T4i. Not much different outside of the new 18-55 STM kit lens.</p>
<p><strong>Canon EOS T5i Specs</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>18mp</li>
<li>DIGIC 5</li>
<li>9pt AF, all cross type</li>
<li>1.04 million dot 3″ LCD with Vari-Angle and touchscreen</li>
<li>5 fps</li>
<li>Full HD</li>
<li>Flash sync of 1/200 sec</li>
<li>ISO 25600 100-25,600</li>
<li>Creative Filters</li>
<li>SD / SDHC / SDXC media (corresponding UHS-I)</li>
<li>Battery LP-E8</li>
<li>Weight (including battery and memory card) 580g</li>
<li>Available at the end of April</li>
<li>EF-S 18-55mm IS STM or EF-S 18-135mm IS STM</li>
</ul>
<div id="attachment_13147" class="wp-caption alignnone" style="width: 510px"><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ef-s1855stm.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-13147 " alt="EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 IS STM" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ef-s1855stm.jpg" width="500" height="380" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 IS STM</p></div>
<p><strong>Source: [<a href="http://digicame-info.com/2013/03/eos-kiss-x7i.html" target="_blank">DCI</a>]</strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Kuvamastah (Mar 19, 2013)

*Re: T5i leaked apparently*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Some think that the number of pixels defines sensor technology. That's why we had megapixel wars, because the uneducated masses think that more is always better.



The 650D and possibly the 700D are sporting 18MP sensors, meanwhile Nikon's new APS-C are all sporting 24MP sensors with good dynamic range, ISO, etc. Food for thought.
Ok, let's not mention Nikon's quality control issues


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## heptagon (Mar 19, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Some think that the number of pixels defines sensor technology. That's why we had megapixel wars, because the uneducated masses think that more is always better.



Besides pixel count there is dynamic range and color sensitivity. Higher pixel count while keeping the noise levels down is a net plus. You can always reduce pixel count in software but you cannot increase it.


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## bseitz234 (Mar 19, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> Not much different outside of the new 18-55 STM kit lens.



And the price: Probably 20% higher than t4i?


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## tomscott (Mar 19, 2013)

Oh dear, really hope this 18mp sensor is new and blows the socks off people! Otherwise theres no change.


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## RLPhoto (Mar 19, 2013)

Wow, the new 18-55mm kit lens doesn't have that ludicrous trapezoid shape the old on did. It actually looks more pro. :


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## thepancakeman (Mar 19, 2013)

tomscott said:


> Oh dear, really hope this 18mp sensor is new and blows the socks off people! Otherwise theres no change.



Sure there is--this one has a '5' in the name, the previous one had a '4'! :


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## facedodge (Mar 19, 2013)

A new kit lens to sell with the camera kit doesn't equal a new camera; it's a modified camera kit. There has to be something different for Canon to justify the T5i branding. 

Personally, I think for the target audience, the T4i is probably more than enough camera. Maybe Canon should have just skipped a cycle and offered the camera at a discount to keep it competitive.


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## Stig (Mar 19, 2013)

awww, how cute...

and on the more serious side, I'm reading it and thinking of my 6D, hmm... 9 cross type, 5fps, 1/200 flash sync, variangle touchscreen... 

anyway...


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## Axilrod (Mar 19, 2013)

facedodge said:


> A new kit lens to sell with the camera kit doesn't equal a new camera; it's a modified camera kit. There has to be something different for Canon to justify the T5i branding.
> 
> Personally, I think for the target audience, the T4i is probably more than enough camera. Maybe Canon should have just skipped a cycle and offered the camera at a discount to keep it competitive.



Yeah it's getting kinda ridiculous, the differences between the T2i and T3i were pretty substantial, but the 3i compared to the 4i and 5i, not so much.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 19, 2013)

heptagon said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Some think that the number of pixels defines sensor technology. That's why we had megapixel wars, because the uneducated masses think that more is always better.
> ...


 
True. 

However, MP count does not define technology, and it creates issues for many users who do not own or want to own the fastest and latest computers. My D800 low light images took way to long to render in LR 4 on my fairly new computer, and NR or brush actions took a almost unbearable amount of time. I used it for a couple low light events, and processing 500 images took far too much time, so I sold it. The 5D MK III images process very quickly. I also found that even with high end Nikon glass, I usually could not take advantage of all those pixels. The best images were definitely better, but in the end, it wasn't worth the time to process them.
I could see a landscape photographer who took a few images and had time to process them being very happy with a high mp camera, but not the average Rebel user.
Of course, there will always be those who brag about how many MP their camera has, but only a few who can take advantage and actually get more detail. In any event, a user will not get worse images, that's not a concern.


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 19, 2013)

and that´s your two DSLR announcements... no 70D i guess.


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## tomsop (Mar 19, 2013)

The reason the T4i is not that good is beacuase of the video AF fail. Can anyone tell from the leaked specs whether the video AF will be fixed? If just this one very important feature is fixed, that is enough to justify a new model. Otherwise, I sat on the fence with the t4I, will stay on the fence with the t5I, too. 

Still using a Rebel xsi.


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## preppyak (Mar 19, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > Not much different outside of the new 18-55 STM kit lens.
> ...


Nope, I bet body debuts at $849, camera with kit for $999. Those have been the retail price points for the T2i/T3i/T4i. And by next holiday season, you'll see deals for it in the $600 range. The xxxD line is very reliable price wise.


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## RS2021 (Mar 19, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> RS2021 said:
> 
> 
> > Canon will squeeze out the last drop of commercial value from this line of sensors before they move to the next generation. They is after all a commercial company trying to eek out a profit.
> ...



I did use the term "_line of sensors_"...most of us "uneducated masses" realize Canon continues to tweak its sensors and that product lines will stretch for more than a year.

In fact, the point I was making was precisely that...expecting a commercial company like Canon to continually release newer and newer tech with every single cycle is not realistic and they will need to make a profit.



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Some think that the number of pixels defines sensor technology. That's why we had megapixel wars, because the uneducated masses  think that more is always better.



Quoting my original statement about unfair expectations from a commercial company and making a statment about "uneducated masses" and high megapixels is odd. What relevance does this have to anything I said?

As for "uneducated masses", I thought only my colleagues in the Longwood Medical Area used those terms...glad to see it thrive elsewhere. 



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> So far, no one has moved away from the basic silicon technology, no black silicon or other revolutionary technology. There are slightly different versions of it, but no new tech has come out, and none is on the horizon.
> Even the three layer foveon sensors use old tech silicon.



This is like saying the 1950's combustion engine still essentially lies at the base of automobile engines today and why talk about innovation. I don't view the lack of flying saucers based on magnetic force modulation to define advancement in technology. 

With all due respect, it is perfectly ok for the "uneducated masses" you deride to expect something with every few product cycles their little common brains can cope with.


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## J (Mar 19, 2013)

They could have at least added Wi-fi... :-\


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## 9VIII (Mar 19, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Some think that the number of pixels defines sensor technology. That's why we had megapixel wars, because the uneducated masses think that more is always better.



It's a constant struggle from two opposing sides.
I shoot with a T3 right now, a lowly 12MP sensor, when I compared my first shots with that camera VS an old SD780IS (same resolution), I was astonished at how good it looked. Obviously the bigger sensor and more modern technology made a big difference (one point for low resolution sensors).
At the same time, when you look at some comparisons of high density crop sensor cameras VS full frame of the same resolution, if the lens is sharp enough there isn't a whole lot of difference. There's obviously room for higher resolution (one point for high resolution sensors).
On the other hand, I usually downscale my images by about 75%-90% before showing them to anyone, so asking "what's the point" seems quite valid, and has stopped me from ditching my now ancient, inferior sensor (two points for low resolution sensors).
If I'm going to have an SLR that produces such nice images though, it would make sense to have nice prints made of a few of my best shots at some point in the future. I would want a big expensive high quality print to have as much detail crammed into it as you can manage (two points for high resolution sensors).

Continue ad nauseam.


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## preppyak (Mar 19, 2013)

tomsop said:


> The reason the T4i is not that good is beacuase of the video AF fail. Can anyone tell from the leaked specs whether the video AF will be fixed? If just this one very important feature is fixed, that is enough to justify a new model. Otherwise, I sat on the fence with the t4I, will stay on the fence with the t5I, too.


I assume you are angry that it doesn't smoothly track moving objects? If so, expect to be unimpressed with future offerings for the next decade. The shallowness of the DOF makes creating a useable video AF nearly impossible. The camera has to decide which high contrast area to focus on when there are numerous options and then smoothly transition to the correct one. Except then people will complain its slow, so it makes those transitions fast, thus looking jerky.

Basically, the AF tracking system of Canon's most expensive DLSR (at $6k) can lock focus on an object at 12fps for several seconds. Yet, a good video AF would have to do the same at 30fps or 60fps for minutes at a time. Ain't gonna happen on a <$1000 DSLR. If you want video AF, you want a camcorder with a small sensor.


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## Albi86 (Mar 19, 2013)

J said:


> They could have at least added Wi-fi... :-\



Lol. That seriously made my evening.


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## Drum (Mar 19, 2013)

If I was going into a shop to buy my first DSLR not really knowing too much about cameras I don't think I would buy Canon, I would be looking at the Nikons far more seriously. For the entry level users Headline specs (megapixels in particular) is what counts plus the Nikon D3200 has already settled into its lower price point. Also hasn't it gone very quiet about a 70D announcement????


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## brad-man (Mar 19, 2013)

T4i ISO Sensitivity 100 - 6400 Expandable to 12800

T5i ISO Sensitivity 100-25,600 Expandable to 256000

Same Digic 5 processor. Are these specs correct? Are they just marketing-generated numbers that only apply in utopia, or is something going on here?


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## Don Haines (Mar 19, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong.... but wasn't there something recently about a sensor with focusing integrated into it? If this is that sensor than it could have a substantial impact on live-view and movie mode focusing.

If Canon is using this new sensor on new models, then it stands to reason that they will phase out the old sensor. A t4i change to a t5i that just requires some minor software changes and changing a 4 to a 5 in the manuals seems worth it to move towards a new allignment of standardized parts.


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## Jan (Mar 19, 2013)

*...no CR rating?*

How come there is no CR rating at this one?
When I first saw the rumor I was pretty sure that it's fake. The images of the 700D where from the 650D and the spec list is a 1:1 copy of the 650D. Starting from the 300D, there was never a successor of a xxxD with a spec list so close to its predecessor than this 700D.

I don't believe it. 8)

However, if it turns out to be true, I'll keep my 400D for another two years.
(or sell all the stuff and run over to nikon ;-))

Update: the rubber grips are different from those on a 650D. It really seems to be the 700D. Damn.


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## RGF (Mar 19, 2013)

timing is to be expected. I just purchased a T4i for my wife


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## Don Haines (Mar 19, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Correct me if I'm wrong.... but wasn't there something recently about a sensor with focusing integrated into it? If this is that sensor than it could have a substantial impact on live-view and movie mode focusing.
> ...



To quote Homer.... "DOH"

I knew it was somewhere.... but this one seems to have a higher ISO range...


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## Don Haines (Mar 19, 2013)

It really looks like a complete re-alignment of the APS-C line

Mirrorless - EOS-M
Compact - EOS-B
Entry - T5i
Enthusiast - 70D
Pro - 7D2

With the specs of the T5i, the 70D was to be at least as good, probably better build, shoulder display, Digic 6, and slightly faster. If the 7D2 is going to be better than the 70D it's going to be a kick-ass little camera


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## Albi86 (Mar 19, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> With the specs of the T5i, the 70D was to be at least as good, probably better build, shoulder display, Digic 6, and slightly faster. If the 7D2 is going to be better than the 70D it's going to be a kick-ass little camera



I doubt it's already time for a digic6....


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## CanoSony (Mar 19, 2013)

preppyak said:


> tomsop said:
> 
> 
> > The reason the T4i is not that good is beacuase of the video AF fail. Can anyone tell from the leaked specs whether the video AF will be fixed? If just this one very important feature is fixed, that is enough to justify a new model. Otherwise, I sat on the fence with the t4I, will stay on the fence with the t5I, too.
> ...



Or a Sony alt camera... Translucent mirror works wonders for video.


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## CanoSony (Mar 19, 2013)

I meant to say slt. Full video af at $600 or less


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## Don Haines (Mar 19, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > With the specs of the T5i, the 70D was to be at least as good, probably better build, shoulder display, Digic 6, and slightly faster. If the 7D2 is going to be better than the 70D it's going to be a kick-ass little camera
> ...



like the EOS-B edited to Powershot SX280 HS? If it's out there, I can see it going into the 70D and a pair of them into a 7D2. They probably left the digic5 in the T5i to make the upgrade simpler..... software and improved sensor.... no new circuit boards or re-tooling.


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## Albi86 (Mar 19, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Excuse me, where did you read of the eos-b having a digic6? Or any other camera, for that matter?


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## emag (Mar 19, 2013)

No earth-shaking, radical changes.....but we didn't expect that, did we? For someone looking for a first DSLR and wanting a shiny new model, this will be a fine camera, as will the EOS-b. T2i, T3i, 60D and T4i owners will still be happy with their existing gear and perhaps nudged toward 6D if they want significantly higher IQ without too much financial strain. I suspect those who are still okay with crop sensors and want to go higher end (price) will be somewhat pleased with the (fabled) 70D and very pleased with the expected-to-be-suprisingly-expensive 7DII. I'm somewhat in the 6D camp, I have more use for WiFi than the wonderful 5DIII AF.


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## brad-man (Mar 19, 2013)

Digic 6 processor, _when such a processor exists_, will only appear in a "professional" model with a "professional" price tag...


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## x-vision (Mar 19, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> Excuse me, where did you read of the eos-b having a digic6? Or any other camera, for that matter?



http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/03/canon-powershot-sx280/


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## Don Haines (Mar 19, 2013)

brad-man said:


> Digic 6 processor, _when such a processor exists_, will only appear in a "professional" model with a "professional" price tag...



http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/03/canon-powershot-sx280/

WOW! A professional powershot!


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## brad-man (Mar 19, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > brad-man said:
> ...



So all you suckers out there with a 1DX better trade _up_ to a powershot...


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## Don Haines (Mar 19, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> Excuse me, where did you read of the eos-b having a digic6? Or any other camera, for that matter?



My mistake, meant to say Powershot 280
http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/03/canon-powershot-sx280/ 
I edited original post to correct error.


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## RS2021 (Mar 19, 2013)

brad-man said:


> So all you suckers out there with a 1DX better trade _up_ to a powershot...



May be not for a PowerShot, but I am seriously considering trading for a small footprint RX1 and the new 24-70II... 

Now if this PowerShot sings and dances like that frog from bugs bunny cartoons...I'll get on it right away!


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## hmmm (Mar 19, 2013)

I don't believe this spec for the t5i unless it has some bonus features like gps (and wifi) not listed in the rumored spec, or if the sensor is somehow significantly improved, though still 18 mp. Canon is known for warmover models -- but this spec T5i is too close to the T4i even for Canon. I could believe T5i = T4i + GPS, maybe. 

We'll see soon enough and then we can get back to serious rumormongery for the 70D and 7D mkII!


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## mrsfotografie (Mar 19, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Wow, the new 18-55mm kit lens doesn't have that ludicrous trapezoid shape the old on did. It actually looks more pro. :



Agreed, it looks a lot better. The lens at least gets a thumbs up (for style)


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## heptagon (Mar 19, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> heptagon said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



Well that's what I call an educated opinion - rarely found around here in the heat of the discussion. 

What i'd like to see is an sensor with a pixel resolution much beyond the diffraction limit (i.e. about 16 times the megapixels we have now) which makes antialiasing filters and demosaicing virtually redundant. From this sensor we can downsample by a factor of 2 to 10 in order to get processable and sharp images without the problems at pixel-level we have today. I'm sure this will happen within 5-15 years but i'm not sure if canon or nikon are the first to introduce this technology. Maybe canon has development started on something like this because while it won't perform very well in the high-iso-regime it will surely blow minds in the low-iso-regime (ISO25).


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## wickidwombat (Mar 19, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Wow, the new 18-55mm kit lens doesn't have that ludicrous trapezoid shape the old on did. It actually looks more pro. :



I bet they updated it with the optics from the EF-M version, when i tested my EOS-M and kit lens agains the 600D and its kit lens I noticed the EOS-M was a fair bit sharper accross the frame and this was at f8 or f9 in a studio with stobes. so the update is probably a good thing

as for the T5i? meh, I still say anyone in the market for a rebel that the T3i is the best value out there at the moment and if you look at what you can snag a refurb unit for... the AF on the 650D and 700D is probably all they really have going for them over the T3i but the T3i is better for video and the T3i can already have a stable magic lantern installed on it


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## well_dunno (Mar 19, 2013)

if one boils the cam in water blended with some chemicals it improves sensor performance I hear... ;D

I kid I kid! 

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/03/17/nikon-repair-center-saves-a-lens-damaged-by-salt-water-by-boiling-it.aspx/

Let's wait until we see some images? Now that DR wars seem to be over, I will be happy to do some bashing ;D

Cheers!


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 19, 2013)

well_dunno said:


> if one boils the cam in water blended with some chemicals it improves sensor performance I hear... ;D



now tell us how your brain makes the connection from boiling a LENS to SENSOR performance.


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## well_dunno (Mar 20, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> well_dunno said:
> 
> 
> > if one boils the cam in water blended with some chemicals it improves sensor performance I hear... ;D
> ...



the same way comments on the link make the connection to D600? Lacking sense of humor, are we?


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## lholmes549 (Mar 20, 2013)

While this was completely predictable it is still quite disappointing. I guess we always knew that the 70D and the 7D2 were always going to be the cameras to get a real upgrade this time round and hopefully we won't be disappointed, but I get the impression canon are getting a bit lazy...

The difference between the last 3 rebel bodies have been so minimal in terms of actual improvements and not just gimmicks, it is quite astounding. I know it's their enthusiast line but at least make a bit of effort or don't release a camera every year with just an improved LCD and an extra 1fps. 

They seem to be second to Nikon at the minute in terms of effort to innovate and not just squeeze money out of us. Maybe this will all change with the two big releases. 

Personally I would like to see the return of eye controlled focussing in some shape or form. Would be an interesting challenge for some 61 focus points. Your move, Canon.


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## Woody (Mar 20, 2013)

So, T5i goes head to head against Nikon D5200 while EOS-b competes against the D3200. Not bad.


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## wickidwombat (Mar 20, 2013)

Woody said:


> So, T5i goes head to head against Nikon D5200 while EOS-b competes against the D3200. Not bad.



and they both get punched in the face... Hard... and fall over bleeding


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## bseitz234 (Mar 20, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > So, T5i goes head to head against Nikon D5200 while EOS-b competes against the D3200. Not bad.
> ...



bahahahahaha


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## wrlphoto (Mar 20, 2013)

lholmes549 said:


> Personally I would like to see the return of eye controlled focussing in some shape or form. Would be an interesting challenge for some 61 focus points. Your move, Canon.



I would love that. would be so damn useful for sports


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## RLPhoto (Mar 20, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > So, T5i goes head to head against Nikon D5200 while EOS-b competes against the D3200. Not bad.
> ...


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## DarkKnightNine (Mar 20, 2013)

Canon has become so unimpressive with their camera specs lately. Has anyone seen what even a small family owned company like Sigma is doing? They've managed to stuff a 46MP Foveon Sensor into a point-and-shoot, and their lenses have recently been setting benchmarks that put even the best L glass to shame at a fraction of the cost. Canon needs to get off of their lazy asses and start innovating. They clearly have the means, just apparently not much inspiration. 


Sigma link:
http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/camera/dp1_merrill/#/specification


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## EvillEmperor (Mar 20, 2013)

(Stereotypical Canon forums user)
Blah! Canon! You don't have the right features for me! This is an entry level camera but you don't have the proper features for me! I don't want to spend moar money for a better camera!! I want slideshow with music! I'm not even gunna buy this camera!
Rant over.


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## rpt (Mar 20, 2013)

DarkKnightNine said:


> Canon has become so unimpressive with their camera specs lately. Has anyone seen what even a small family owned company like Sigma is doing? They've managed to stuff a 46MP Foveon Sensor into a point-and-shoot, and their lenses have recently been setting benchmarks that put even the best L glass to shame at a fraction of the cost. Canon needs to get off of their lazy asses and start innovating. They clearly have the means, just apparently not much inspiration.
> 
> 
> Sigma link:
> http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/camera/dp1_merrill/#/specification


The max image dimension is shown as 4704 x 3136 pixels...

The way to get to 46MP is by multiplying by 3. It is on the specs page...

Canon still need to get off their you-know-whats but Sigma's 46MP looks like marketing to me.


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## EchoLocation (Mar 20, 2013)

My only question is why didn't they just make the EOS-B the new rebel? 
The EOS-B has very similar specs to this and is a smaller size. At least if the EOS-B was the new rebel they could say that they changed something and made it smaller, lighter, but with even better performance. 
This camera seems to be stuck in no mans land.... not so small, not so cheap, and with totally blah specs. At least I could consider trading my T2i for the EOS-B(which I would never do), this camera offers no good reasons to do so.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 20, 2013)

rpt said:


> The way to get to 46MP is by multiplying by 3. It is on the specs page...
> 
> Canon still need to get off their you-know-whats but Sigma's 46MP looks like marketing to me.



It's the new math. Panasonic has a 600mm f/2.8 lens, so Sigma gets a 46 MP sensor.


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## Woody (Mar 20, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > So, T5i goes head to head against Nikon D5200 while EOS-b competes against the D3200. Not bad.
> ...



How so? Pixel count? Anything else?


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## Woody (Mar 20, 2013)

EchoLocation said:


> My only question is why didn't they just make the EOS-B the new rebel?
> The EOS-B has very similar specs to this and is a smaller size. At least if the EOS-B was the new rebel they could say that they changed something and made it smaller, lighter, but with even better performance.
> This camera seems to be stuck in no mans land.... not so small, not so cheap, and with totally blah specs. At least I could consider trading my T2i for the EOS-B(which I would never do), this camera offers no good reasons to do so.



The EOS-b is simply the equal of Nikon D3200 (just lower pixel count), but much smaller and lighter. Its weight is nearly the same as the OM-D.


----------



## iP337 (Mar 20, 2013)

WAIT WAIT WAIT! ...You're telling me that 2 of Canon's "4 new APS-C cameras for 2013" are the same thing?! And not much better then their last 4 APS-C cameras?



EchoLocation said:


> My only question is why didn't they just make the EOS-B the new rebel?
> ... At least if the EOS-B was the new rebel they could say that they changed something and made it smaller, lighter, but with even better performance.



Totally agree, this makes no sense. So the "new" 100D/EOS-B is going to be $800 and the "new" 700D(or "655D") is how much more for roughly the same thing as a 100D and 650D?!

Canon really must want current APS-C owners to upgrade to a 6D, why else release the same 4 year old APS-C cameras again but at a slightly inflated price... "Your upgrade choices are this; buy your current camera again for a little more then you paid last time or double down on a Full Frame."



Woody said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > Woody said:
> ...


That D5200 has an amazing Toshiba APS-C sensor; with excellent Signal to Noise ratios, Dynamic Range and Low Video Moire. Too bad Nikon set it up with a lack luster, feature-less camera body. I don't know much about the D3200 but it seems to have the Sony sensor found in the D7000 that bested Canon's APS-C image quality. These new Canons still have a better control layout (IMO) and manual video modes (I hope) plus more cross-type AF points and decent fps bursts for photo shooting but if you want/need better Image Quality then Canon may not be what you're looking for anymore (but I'd hold that judgement until these are actually tested)

Also price wise 100D/EOS B competes against the D5200 at $800...



wrlphoto said:


> lholmes549 said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I would like to see the return of eye controlled focussing in some shape or form. Would be an interesting challenge for some 61 focus points. Your move, Canon.
> ...


Canon used that in a 5 point AF system that was positioned horizontally across the frame. Though I guess it could be practically applied in the "Zone AF mode"; that might be useful.


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## Woody (Mar 20, 2013)

iP337 said:


> That D5200 has an amazing Toshiba APS-C sensor; with excellent Signal to Noise ratios, Dynamic Range and Low Video Moire.



Yes, I am fully aware of the sensor differences: pixel count, low ISO dynamic range etc. But feature wise? I really don't see any feature advantage the D5200 has over the T5i, nor the D3200 over the EOS-b. The T5i has more cross AF sensors and the low weight/size of the EOS-b is nothing to snort at (same weight as OM-D).


----------



## lopicma (Mar 20, 2013)

I don't understand this product...?! If all they're doing is changing the name plate, why bother?

I saw that PowerShot posting with a DIGIC6 chip, but not this new T5i?


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## wickidwombat (Mar 20, 2013)

Woody said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > Woody said:
> ...



???

The sensor differences are massive and not just from a number of pixels PoV
how about
low iso noise?
high iso noise?
fixed pattern noise?
noise noise noise

$$$$ Price? $$$$

or

how about 39 point AF including 9 cross type on the D5200 vs wait for it 9! on the canon :
and even the D3200 with its lowly 11 points is still more than the 9 (with 1 cross type that the EOS-B gets

Better RGB metering on both nikons

generally the low end nikons have more features and are a bit more customisable than the low end canons


both nikons have headphone jacks for video audio not sure about these new canons yet

anyway I'm not a nikon fanboy, I used to shoot with nikon and changed to canon but nikon crop cameras have been better than canon crop cameras for quite some time and it looks as if there is going to be no change to that situation

as i've said previously neither of these new canon crop cameras offer anything substantial over a T3i other than maybe extra noisey higher iso images which can have liberal dosages of over the top in camera smudging aka noise reduction applied, especially given the price! anyone in the market for a rebel or cheap DSLR should look at a T3i spend the difference on better glass especially given how cheap refurb units can be had


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## DarkKnightNine (Mar 20, 2013)

rpt said:


> DarkKnightNine said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has become so unimpressive with their camera specs lately. Has anyone seen what even a small family owned company like Sigma is doing? They've managed to stuff a 46MP Foveon Sensor into a point-and-shoot, and their lenses have recently been setting benchmarks that put even the best L glass to shame at a fraction of the cost. Canon needs to get off of their lazy asses and start innovating. They clearly have the means, just apparently not much inspiration.
> ...




Still you have to applaud Sigma's effort for at least trying something new (whether it's just marketing hype or not will have to be reserved for real world testing). Canon hasn't had a wow! feature since putting radio transceivers into their flash units (which I absolutely LOVE!). I'll say it again, what really disappoints me with Canon is that they have the largest marketshare and the technology to do so much better, but they seem to be content with just coasting along. I'm sure if they really wanted to, they could blow the doors off the competition, so why the mediocre upgrades time and time again? There's no excuse for it. I want Canon to do better because they can.


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## Woody (Mar 20, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> how about 39 point AF including 9 cross type on the D5200 vs wait for it 9! on the canon :



Oh, I did not realize the D5200 has 39 AF points. 

I however do not agree the 11 AF points on the D3200 has any advantage whatsoever over the EOS-b. 

Also, based on the above arguments, practically all Nikon cameras trash their Canon equivalents in terms of sensor performance, AF points and/or pixel count: the D800 vs 5D3, D600 vs 6D, D7100 vs 7D, D5200 vs T5i, D3200 vs EOS-b. Woe to us Canon users. So, why are we still shooting Canon?


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## wickidwombat (Mar 20, 2013)

Woody said:


> Also, based on the above arguments, practically all Nikon cameras trash their Canon equivalents in terms of sensor performance, AF points and/or pixel count: the D800 vs 5D3, D600 vs 6D, D7100 vs 7D, D5200 vs T5i, D3200 vs EOS-b. Woe to us Canon users. So, why are we still shooting Canon?



no not true, the canon full frame sensors are great and have been for ages, 5Dmk3, 1Dx and 6D all do well with regards to noise


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## that1guyy (Mar 20, 2013)

So the new cameras coming in a couple days - 110D and a new T5i, possibly some powershot. Seriously what a joke. Nothing in the specs is exciting. Same old boring bodies, same obsolete sensor;

If all the rumors we hear are true about these cameras, I really hope Canon crashes and burns.


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## fman (Mar 20, 2013)

Pardon me but what's the leak?
This spec. is almost a direct copy from the previous generation (maybe there is a new processing engine so ISO range is extended for the sake of JPG but RAW is probably the same).
I'm slowly getting used to that Canon is either overpriced or under-specified (compared to e.g. Nikon or mFT).



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Some think that the number of pixels defines sensor technology. That's why we had megapixel wars, because the uneducated masses think that more is always better.



While I'm not wishing for more megapixels (I'd be even fine with less) I just could not help not noticing that despite the more megapixels Nikon APS-Cs have at least as good or better IQ at any ISO than the Canon (even on pixel level).

So if those uneducated masses that you started to talk about ever compare IQ wise Canon APS-C with other small sensor systems they can easily come to the same conclusion, but maybe I just misunderstood Canon's strategy with APS-C and they would like to quit from this market segment (and focus on the more juicy FF). Then well done Canon, very well done.

Nevertheless my need for portable small system is fulfilled with mFT so it seems that I don't need to spend on Canon gear this year either.


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## sandymandy (Mar 20, 2013)

fman said:


> So if those uneducated masses that you started to talk about ever compare IQ wise Canon APS-C with other small sensor systems they can easily come to the same conclusion, but maybe I just misunderstood Canon's strategy with APS-C and they would like to quit from this market segment (and focus on the more juicy FF). Then well done Canon, very well done.
> 
> Nevertheless my need for portable small system is fulfilled with mFT so it seems that I don't need to spend on Canon gear this year either.



Whats your point. Frustrated about Canon? Just buy another camera then, no problem. I cant honestly tell if a photo was shot with a Nikon or Canon.IQ seems good enough with both brands for me.


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## Woody (Mar 20, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> no not true, the canon full frame sensors are great and have been for ages, 5Dmk3, 1Dx and 6D all do well with regards to noise



The 5D3 and 6D sensors have lower pixel count and poorer low ISO dynamic range compared to that on D800 and D600 respectively. So, there is no technical advantage whatsoever in Canon cameras.  So, woe to Canon users.


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## fman (Mar 20, 2013)

sandymandy said:


> I cant honestly tell if a photo was shot with a Nikon or Canon.IQ seems good enough with both brands for me.



Even the IQ of mFT cameras have since long surpassed APS-C Canons. If just by a hair or more judge for yourself (don't take my word for it).
mFT has also superb compact size primes (just to name some: 12 f/2, 45 f/1.8; but really a long list). Try them once e.g. with Olympus OM-D E-M5 or any recent mFT camera. You'll be surprised...


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 20, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> RS2021 said:
> 
> 
> > Canon will squeeze out the last drop of commercial value from this line of sensors before they move to the next generation. They is after all a commercial company trying to eek out a profit.
> ...


+1


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## fman (Mar 20, 2013)

I think this is pretty inventive (maybe still not revolutionary), nothing like that I remember from Canon...

http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/2013/02/en130204-6/en130204-6.html


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## Ladislav (Mar 20, 2013)

It may sound silly but the target customers of Rebel or EOS-B usually don't care about number of AF points or quality of sensor - price and gimmicks are more important. I saw it on myself and my family / friends. Rebel users can be in my opinion divided into three groups:


First time DSLR users who will never uncover full potential of their entry level camera. They will use as much auto features as possible - auto focus, auto focus point selection, auto white balance, auto exposition (and scenic modes later), auto ISO jpg, etc.
Few users from the first group will go deeper, find limitation of their camera it the area of their interest and some of them will look for upgrade. I count myself into this group.
More skilled users who are looking for second / third DSLR body where the main requirement is size / weight or who are looking for a camera for their family members (that goes back to the first group).

If you don't know anything about DSLR, MP count may be something you will compare in product lists but when it comes to hands-on comparison all those gimmicks matters. The reason why I bought Rebel T4i as my first camera was because my friends use Canon (= recommendation) and because of ergonomics. It feels better in my hands than Nikon and it has a stellar feature - the touch screen. That is the WOW feature when I show my camera to my friends. Nobody cares what sensor do I have or how many AF points my camera have because they usually have older models which are sufficient for their needs but all of them see huge benefit in touch screen because the user experience in handling the camera settings and browsing / zooming images is what mass market in 2013 expects. The touch screen will be the only feature I will miss after upgrading to better model (6D). 

If Canon adds WiFi to entry level model to make syncing images to tablet or smartphone straightforward, Nikon and others will IMHO not be impressive by their technology but only by their price because Canon is usually more expensive.

Btw. I don't believe that 18 MP or 24 MP makes any big difference in cameras mostly used with kit lenses and images used for small prints or web presentations (with no post production at all).


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## aj1575 (Mar 20, 2013)

Woody said:


> Also, based on the above arguments, practically all Nikon cameras trash their Canon equivalents in terms of sensor performance, AF points and/or pixel count: the D800 vs 5D3, D600 vs 6D, D7100 vs 7D, D5200 vs T5i, D3200 vs EOS-b. Woe to us Canon users. So, why are we still shooting Canon?



This is maybe because a good photographer with a mediocre camera makes better pictures, than a mediocre photographer with a good camera...


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## Marsu42 (Mar 20, 2013)

hmmm said:


> Canon is known for warmover models -- but this spec T5i is too close to the T4i even for Canon.



But they moved to digic5 (faster fps), certainly updated the fw (rt flashes, more gimmicks) and probably did some other changes that makes this model more attractive to *produce* for *Canon* - and next to that a new model will sell better in the Rebel market simply due to being "new".

However I'd like to thank Canon for sticking to the 18mp sensor so my 60d still isn't outdated


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 20, 2013)

Ladislav said:


> It may sound silly but the target customers of Rebel or EOS-B usually don't care about number of AF points or quality of sensor - price and gimmicks are more important.


+1


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## Ellen Schmidtee (Mar 20, 2013)

I wished upon a star for an EF-S 18-55mm IS STM, and there it is!

ren and stimpy-happy happy joy joy


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## rpt (Mar 20, 2013)

DarkKnightNine said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > DarkKnightNine said:
> ...



Which is why I wrote *"Canon still need to get off their you-know-whats"*...


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## Sith Zombie (Mar 20, 2013)

DarkKnightNine said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > DarkKnightNine said:
> ...



Agreed! Even the giant corporate slug that is Microsoft is taking risks and trying new things with products like Windows 8 and Surface. Ok so they're not directly comparable companies but the message is the same: you need to keep on your toes, even at the top.


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## pedro (Mar 20, 2013)

tomscott said:


> Oh dear, really hope this 18mp sensor is new and blows the socks off people! Otherwise theres no change.



I cannot imagine anything else but a new sensor...If not, the ISO 25k will look quite weird...;-)


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## tomscott (Mar 20, 2013)

This Canon vs Nikon argument is just silly really.

We have reached a point where all of the recent sensors are good enough for commercial print. I was shooting with a 40D for newspapers until about this time last year. 

The D800 and D600 are so far out of this bracket you cannot compare them. It is a shame but bitching isnt going to solve the problem.

The D800 vs 5DMKIII they couldn't be more different in their application, and although the 5DMKIII may fall behind slightly in IQ and DR at least you can use them and have accurate colour, let alone problems with the sensors.

Same with the D600 vs 6D they are both compromises. The D600 may have more points but they are spread in such a small area of the viewfinder that having 39 in that space is overkill same again with oily sensors... The 6D has also proved itself in the IQ and noise department. 

When Canon finally release the new sensor tech im sure it will blow away the competition they are biding their time for a reason and for average photographers that 18mp sensor is more than adequate, old and behind admittedly but this crowd isnt really who this camera is for.

Many average people just want to take pics and Canon is a great name.


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 20, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> if you want to buy a competitive camera from canon today you have to pay 2800$ for the 5D MK3.
> 
> evertyhing below that you better buy a nikon product.. sad but true.


I disagree, Canon EOS 7D is a fantastic camera and it costs less than half the price of 5D MK III ... I use a Nikon D7000 because of the Nikkor 18-300mm lens, if Canon had a 18-300mm lens I'd have continued to use the Canon EOS 7D
5D MKII also costs less than 5D MKIII and it is great all round camera, which was/is much better than the Nikon D700
Canon 6D also costs less than 5D MK III and it does not have an oily sensor and does not produce green tinge images like Nikon D600
On Nikon D5000 & D3000 series of cameras you cannot have AF using many of thier lenses, if one wants to use some of the Nikkor good glass on the lower end models they have to be content with manual focus only ... whereas Canon xxxD & 1000D series bodies can auto focus on ALL of the EF & EF-S glass Canon makes.


----------



## MacPaul (Mar 20, 2013)

stipotle said:


> http://digicame-info.com/2013/03/eos-kiss-x7i.html/
> 
> Anybody want to get upset?
> ..or start to despair?


Despair is the right word. No innovation here, no smaller EOS line, no AF improvements, and so on. Typically Canon, ridiculously small "steps" while the contenders move ahead. Lately, I got my hands on a 650D (Regel T4i?): very cheap plastics, just like the 1100D, worse than the predecessors. All other brands offer better quality, better AF and for years now, less noise. Hard to imagine that Canon once was far ahead of the others regarding noise, but they really screwed up in the last years. That happens when you are market leader and get lazy and complacent.


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## Albi86 (Mar 20, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > if you want to buy a competitive camera from canon today you have to pay 2800$ for the 5D MK3.
> ...



Strange, my D600's files are not greenish at all.


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## Woody (Mar 20, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> Strange, my D600's files are not greenish at all.



I'm sure they are fine. They just appear greenish on Nikon DSLR LCDs.

But the D600 sensor debris problem is VERY real.


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## aj1575 (Mar 20, 2013)

I think the sensor will be the same as in the 650D, with some minor improvements. ISO 25'600 could be doable in JPEG with the DIGIC5 processor. And I think this sensor is good enough for the target group. People who buy a rebel (xxxD), are either new to photography, or not really serious about it (the same goes for Nikon 3xxx and 5xxx). These people do not care much about AF-Systems, DR and RAW; so there is no reason to shine with such features. These people like a camera that takes pictures, and one that they think they can handle; not too many buttons, good UI, compact size and a good price. Give them a 7D, and they will be overwhelmed by the amount of buttons, and they will get feeling that the salesperson is speaking in chinese when he explains them the camera.

For these people the old 18MP sensor is good enough, so are 11 AF points.

It also makes sense for Canon to use the old sensor in these cameras. They need to ramp up the production of their new 180nm sensor first, and they won't do that in a high volume model like the rebel. So they can still use their old equipment, which is cheaper then the new ones, and produce very decent sensor there vor the high volume market.
They will most likely introduce the new sensor generation in the 70D and the 7DII. And I will be looking forward to their test on DXOMark. I hope that Canon will catch up with Sony and Nikon, but there is also a chance they will fall a bit short, but also that they will overtake them and stay ahead for some time. We will see.

I hope I will have my 70D before the summer ends.


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## yakapo (Mar 20, 2013)

I guess I'm in the category of the "ignorant masses" that bought a t4i. I paid $550 for the body with the kit zoom brand new. For that price I get a nice big touchscreen that swivels out - great for photos of my new baby when she's sitting on the floor. Af sucks in video but who cares? I just use manual focus when shooting video. 

I bought the 50mm 1.8 for $50 from a friend and later sold it to get the sigma 30mm 1.4 for $230 used. I bought a 420ex for about $60. 

I've only been into photography for the past 8 months but to me canon has the best bang for your buck. $850 for my whole setup is less than a new nikon d5200.


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## carlosmeldano (Mar 20, 2013)

aj1575 said:


> I hope I will have my 70D before the summer ends.



according to CW latest info, 70D will only be announced later, but before summer. it may only be available in stores this autumn.

disappointing... :-\


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## KarstenReis (Mar 20, 2013)

This was posted on Canon Rumors Twitter last night. Possibility of the 70D before Easter.
https://twitter.com/canonrumorsguy/status/314133618815553536


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## sanj (Mar 20, 2013)

I really do not understand the negativity.
It is a new camera which will be useful to who need it.
End of story!!!


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## psolberg (Mar 20, 2013)

YET ANOTHER 18MP APS-C from CANON!

They should earn an award for the most milked sensor in the history of photography! ah, what's an old sensor among friends right?


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## Albi86 (Mar 20, 2013)

Woody said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > Strange, my D600's files are not greenish at all.
> ...



Also the lcd thing is overrated - it's mostly a matter of relative perception. I agree, it has a different hue than Canon's LCD and in comparison it looks greenish. The first couple of days it did look green to me too. However, once my eyes got used to it, it just felt normal. Probably by now Canon's LCDs would look insanely reddish to me.

I have taken around 500 pictures so far and I couldn't notice anything strange on them. I'll do a test when I'll reach the famous 3000 shots landmark. It might be that newer batches are not afflicted by the issue.


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## psolberg (Mar 20, 2013)

> Yes, I am fully aware of the sensor differences: pixel count, low ISO dynamic range etc. But feature wise? I really don't see any feature advantage the D5200 has over the T5i, nor the D3200 over the EOS-b.



the sensor is a feature  it is after all, an imaging device wouldn't you say? 8)



> On Nikon D5000 & D3000 series of cameras you cannot have AF using many of thier lenses, if one wants to use some of the Nikkor good glass on the lower end models they have to be content with manual focus only



you need to do your research better. pretty much every great Nikon lens is AF-S electronic focus already. The only stragglers are lenses which are nothing to write home about. At this point in fact, the AF-S based glass so outnumbers the legacy glass and it is so much better, that you'd be nuts not to buy the modern lens!


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 20, 2013)

Woody said:


> The 5D3 and 6D sensors have lower pixel count and poorer low ISO dynamic range compared to that on D800 and D600 respectively. So, there is no technical advantage whatsoever in Canon *cameras*



How is that people continually fail to understand that a "camera" is not a metal/plastic box with a sensor inside, any more than a car is a metal/plastic box with an engine inside? I was car shopping recently, pretty much every vehicle I was looking at, different body styles from 5 different manufacturers, all had a 3.5L 6-cyl engine. Does that mean there's no real difference between them?

Yes, the sensor is important. No, Canon doesn't make the best sensors from an IQ standpoint. But until consumers start buying bare silicon sensors to take pictures, what matters is *camera* performance, not only sensor performance.


----------



## J.R. (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D3 and 6D sensors have lower pixel count and poorer low ISO dynamic range compared to that on D800 and D600 respectively. So, there is no technical advantage whatsoever in Canon *cameras*
> ...



So are we beating the dead horse again?


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D3 and 6D sensors have lower pixel count and poorer low ISO dynamic range compared to that on D800 and D600 respectively. So, there is no technical advantage whatsoever in Canon *cameras*
> ...


+1 ... well said


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## Woody (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, the sensor is important. No, Canon doesn't make the best sensors from an IQ standpoint. But until consumers start buying bare silicon sensors to take pictures, what matters is *camera* performance, not only sensor performance.



I agree actually. Which is why I do not understand all that negativity when people hears about the 18 MP APS-C sensor... again.


----------



## fman (Mar 20, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> if you want to buy a competitive camera from canon today you have to pay 2800$ for the 5D MK3.
> 
> evertyhing below that you better buy a nikon product.. sad but true.
> 
> ...



Sad, but so true.
I take most of the time only mFT stuff with me as that's smaller/lighter (and IQ wise I don't feel loosing anything). So that's with me in the 99% of the time.
In the rare occasions when I carry my bigger photo bag which has also 550D/T2i + an L zoom in it I use almost exclusively my mFT stuff (Canon stuff is hidden deeper in the bag and it's more trouble to take it out and I'm not up to that trouble , no actually I'm not kidding).
The very rare cases when I used my Canon stuff during the last 1/2 year was because:
- The 580EXII is more powerful and recharges a bit faster than the flash I have for mFT (I could change that)
- Magic Lantern and because nothing comparable exist for mFT
- The Canon 100L, because I don't have macro lens for mFT (I could change that)

Sure the 5DmkIII would provide somewhat better IQ/better handling/more background blur etc. but I'm dead sure that not 2800$ worth for me personally.
Pro work is of course different. There you cannot afford not using the best stuff. But pros buys only 1 digit Canons, right?

So I'd be ready to pay for a reasonable spec'd and reasonable priced xxD but I'm not open to pay anything for a Canon APS-C body that not up to recent mFT bodies and smells like designed by the marketing department and engineers were not allowed to work on it. 

Anything lesser than xxD from Canon is a joke and only Canon fan-boys (and folks working for Canon's marketing department) who never tried out anything else (take mFT for example) can truly believe that they are still competitive and worth their price.


----------



## jthomson (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> How is that people continually fail to understand that a "camera" is not a metal/plastic box with a sensor inside,



Neuro, you just failed Photography 101. 
We just had our last lecture before the final exam and the instructor took pains to point out that 
"A camera is a light tight box with a sensor inside and a mechanism for letting light in."
I'm pretty sure thats going to be one of the answers required on the final exam.

Just an observation, of the fifteen students in the class, 2 have crop Nikons, 1 has a Sony Nex and the other 12 have crop Canons ranging from the XTi to the 7D. 
Canon must be doing something right with their "crappy" sensors.


----------



## RLPhoto (Mar 20, 2013)

jthomson said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > How is that people continually fail to understand that a "camera" is not a metal/plastic box with a sensor inside,
> ...



No. You didn't discern what he was saying. I could simply give the answer, but just reread your answer and neuro statement and you'll discern the simple comment.


----------



## Albi86 (Mar 20, 2013)

Woody said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, the sensor is important. No, Canon doesn't make the best sensors from an IQ standpoint. But until consumers start buying bare silicon sensors to take pictures, what matters is *camera* performance, not only sensor performance.
> ...



Because there's only so much that people can tolerate a sensor that wasn't the best out there some years ago already. Lack of innovation about well known limits is what strikes and disappoints. Lack of additional feature to make up for an old sensor plus high price is what many consider to be just too much.



jthomson said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > How is that people continually fail to understand that a "camera" is not a metal/plastic box with a sensor inside,
> ...



They *were* doing great. Now they're living on the glory of their name, which unfortunately is not enough for enthusiasts being offered absolutely unremarkable upgrades.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Mar 20, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> Now they're living on the glory of their name, which unfortunately is not enough for enthusiasts being offered absolutely unremarkable *upgrades*.



I don't believe that the Rebel/xxxD line is really targeted to enthusiasts looking to upgrade. It's an entry level line, marketed to people with a P&S or cell phone who 'want to take better pictures'. The majority of those buyers will purchase a Rebel/xxxD at a retail outlet (Best Buy, Costco, etc.) with 1-2 kit lens(es), and never buy another lens nor upgrade (and if their camera breaks in a few years, they'll buy the current Rebel/xxxD as a replacement, and by then it will be 'better').

There will be a minority of Rebel/xxxD owners who are interested in upgrading (and since the number of Rebel/xxxD owners is huge, even a minority fraction of that user base is a significant number). Canon wants those people to buy at least an xxD, preferably an xD body. 

The other relevant point is that the people who post on a forum like this are an _infinitesimal_ fraction of the dSLR market.


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## jthomson (Mar 20, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> jthomson said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...




What no sense of humour on the board? You did notice the smiley? 
I understood that what Neuro meant to say was that a Camera is not "just" a metal box with a sensor inside.
Or possibly is more than just a metal box with a sensor inside.


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## fman (Mar 20, 2013)

jthomson said:


> Canon must be doing something right with their "crappy" sensors.



Nothing *was *wrong with the 18 MP Canon APS-C sensor when it was introduced. But since sensor technology has advanced. There were visible signs in Nikon D5100 then in OMD E-M5 and so on.
What IQ improvements are visible in recent APS-C Canons, let's say in the last 4 years? None that I've noticed.

Does anyone here seriously feels that Canon development in APS-C segment accelerates? 

How about the 5DmkIII that Canon was ready to introduce with SD card support but without UHS-I support? Has anyone heard about the issue? Then just check if Nikon D7000 has UHS-I support. Wait when was D7000 introduced? 2010? And when was 5DmkIII introduced?

So how true that not everything is about sensor...


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## hmmm (Mar 20, 2013)

pedro said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > Oh dear, really hope this 18mp sensor is new and blows the socks off people! Otherwise theres no change.
> ...



A genuinely improved sensor would be enough to turn my opinion on the T5i right around. I'm starting to be cautiously optimistic... : (An image of Lucy pulling away the football just before Charlie Brown is about to kick it comes to mind...)


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## sdsr (Mar 20, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> Because there's only so much that people can tolerate a sensor that wasn't the best out there some years ago already. Lack of innovation about well known limits is what strikes and disappoints. Lack of additional feature to make up for an old sensor plus high price is what many consider to be just too much.



Who are these people who can't tolerate it? Sure, there's much eye-rolling on this forum (mine included), but I doubt that picky enthusiasts who care enough about this sort of thing to spend time every day reading camera forums are the target customers for Rebels, which seem to have been selling in high quantities over the years regardless of their relative inferiority; they obviously have an appeal, however mystifying that may be to high-end enthusiasts.

For my part, I'm quite happy with my 5DII and 6D (which I prefer to the D600 despite its theoretical inferiority). When I want something smaller and lighter, I'll be skipping over APS-C altogether (Im selling my back-up Rebel) and using the Olympus OMD that UPS should be delivering today; the combination of its mere 16MP sensor and astonishingly good little M43 lenses takes remarkably good photos for very little weight and bulk.


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## Albi86 (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > Now they're living on the glory of their name, which unfortunately is not enough for enthusiasts being offered absolutely unremarkable *upgrades*.
> ...



I agree, but:

- Entry-level or above, there is competition out there. I fail to see a reason why someone would choose this D700 over a competing product, except for the Canon name on it. When something costs more than respectable competing products yet offers less, there's something wrong.

- This behaviour from Canon has become widespread and noticed by internet reviewers as well. When the best thing you can say about a company like Canon is that "_after all their products are good enough_", there's something wrong. 

- Recent history suggests that the future release of prosumer cameras will be as disappointing. Other manufacturers offer competent, modern products in every price range. With Canon it seems that unless you buy a 5D3 or a 1DX and a bunch of very expensive L glass, you're having less paying more. 

- That basically kills the prosumer who is happy to spend good money but not quite_ that much_. As a prosumer I don't care about the über-pro market segment; I care about the products in my price range, and in this respect Canon is failing terribly. Doesn't matter how many cameras they sell; good sale figures don't make a product better from a technical point of view.


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> The other relevant point is that the people who post on a forum like this are an _infinitesimal_ fraction of the dSLR market.


Totally agree ... some people here, make comments as if their decision to not buy a new rebel xxD is somehow reflected in the whole world's opinion just bcoz the competition releases 1 or 2 camera bodies that are marginally better at a couple of things at best. Typical frog in a well syndrome.


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## Don Haines (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> The other relevant point is that the people who post on a forum like this are an _infinitesimal_ fraction of the dSLR market.


Agreed!

In my canoe club, if you look at what people use you will see less than 1 percent with a low end DSLR, about 50 percent with point-shoots, and the rest with no camera or a cell phone. I have yet to see another paddler with the tell-tale white lens....


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## psolberg (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D3 and 6D sensors have lower pixel count and poorer low ISO dynamic range compared to that on D800 and D600 respectively. So, there is no technical advantage whatsoever in Canon *cameras*
> ...



so if canon tomorrow released the 5Dmk4, which was 2MP, had 1 stop of dynamic range shot in black and white and maxed out at ISO 100, but was twice as good in every other way as the current camera, you'd buy it? 

NONSENSE.

It is an imaging device at the end of the day, and it needs to perform as an imaging device. sure it is not the only metric, but the end result is what you get, what you charge for, and what speaks of your work. You'll never look at a picture and admire it based on camera ergonomics, or wifi support, or how many cross points it has. Pixels do the talking for you at the end of the day, and yes you can still shoot horrible shots with great quality, yet the fact remains image quality remains king. You simply can't explain the amount of effort companies put into improving it otherwise or the fact the consumer pays attention to it anyways. And that is what matters. Canon needs to sell what consumers want, and if they review quality, companies need to deliver. The fact canon lags, doesn't make it less important.


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## Don Haines (Mar 20, 2013)

psolberg said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Woody said:
> ...


come on now.... that's like offering up a lamborghini with a rubber band motor.. I'ts balanced performance that makes a fine car and it's balanced performance that makes a fine camera.... It's lens... and sensor... and processing power and algorithms... and user interface... and ergonomics... and a host of other things too numerous to mention.

I can take a 1DX, put an old crappy lens on it, and ruin the balance of the system. Image quality will be crap. I can turn off autofocus and shoot blurry pictures.... image quality will be crap. I can turn off IS on a handheld long lens at slow shutter speeds.... image quality will be crap.

You need a good working SYSTEM to take a decent picture.... the sensor is only one part of that system so why is everyone so fixated on it?

The Olympus OMD-EM5 has a better sensor than my 60D. I even have a bin of Oly lenses. The Canon 60D has a better user interface, it feels better in the hand, and it has a better selection of glass. Guess which one I use? Hint: system beats sensor...


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## nicku (Mar 20, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;\"><glusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/03/canon-eos-rebel-t5i-leaks/\"></glusone></div><div style=\"float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;\"><a href=\"https://twitter.com/share\" class=\"twitter-share-button\" data-count=\"vertical\" data-url=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/03/canon-eos-rebel-t5i-leaks/\">Tweet</a></div>
> <p><strong>A New Rebel T5i
> 
> 
> ...



you better f***ing kidding me.... it's a 650D.....


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## ddashti (Mar 20, 2013)

There isn't much of a difference in the T5i specs than the T4i (and even the "EOS-b"). I'm assuming Canon will have to change the name of the "Rebel" series for the new generation of consumer DSLRs.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 20, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> You need a good working SYSTEM to take a decent picture.... the sensor is only one part of that system so why is everyone so fixated on it?



My point exactly. Camera performance matters. Sensor performance is part of that, but short of people hyperbolizing to the point of NONSENsical absurdity, it's not the only part. 

I suspect everyone is fixated on it for two reasons. First, in general, it's easy to measure sensor performance and plot the data or reduce the data to a single 'score'. Second, in particular on CR forums, it's an area where Canon is not leading, and some people like to create a stir by beating on that horse (we sometimes call them trolls...).


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> I suspect everyone is fixated on it for two reasons. First, in general, it's easy to measure sensor performance and plot the data or reduce the data to a single 'score'. Second, in particular on CR forums, it's an area where Canon is not leading, and some people like to create a stir by beating on that horse (we sometimes call them trolls...).



well it´s easy as 1DX user to ignore what happens below the 2500$ barrier... right? ;D

as long as your needs are fulfilled there is no reason to complain.
and yes, against the D4 the 1DX looks good.

so excuse me when i don´t give much about your comments on the "dissapointed canon users" topic. 

the obvious solution for all people with a lot of canon gear is to only buy the TOP product.
so they don´t have to envy other brands.


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## Don Haines (Mar 20, 2013)

ddashti said:


> There isn't much of a difference in the T5i specs than the T4i (and even the "EOS-b"). I'm assuming Canon will have to change the name of the "Rebel" series for the new generation of consumer DSLRs.



I think we have to ask why? Why would Canon introduce a model where the specs seem to be almost the same as the preceeding model.... with the possibility of PERHAPS one stop of ISO ( all depends if they meant normal or expanded range). And why NOT a digic6 when its coming out in a powershot?

One possible explanation is that the old APS-C sensor fabrication line is being shut down, replaced with a new technology line.... and that means no more of the old sensors, replaced with a new one of the same size... a new sensor with the same footprint on the circuit board as the old one so design changes and re-tooling is minimal.... and once the changeover is complete, watch the same thing happen to the ff fabrication process.

This is a far more likely explanation than to just make another identical model for the sake of making a new model.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 20, 2013)

tomscott said:


> This Canon vs Nikon argument is just silly really. We have reached a point where all of the recent sensors are good enough for commercial print. I was shooting with a 40D for newspapers until about this time last year.



Blown highlights due to less dynamic range show on any print size, and you don't need life-sized prints to spot banding or noise after raising shadows. Good for Canon that his difference only matters on low iso, so only landscape or sports on very good light are affected by the difference.


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 20, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> > This Canon vs Nikon argument is just silly really. We have reached a point where all of the recent sensors are good enough for commercial print. I was shooting with a 40D for newspapers until about this time last year.
> 
> 
> 
> Blown highlights due to less dynamic range show on any print size, and you don't need life-sized prints to spot banding or noise after raising shadows. Good for Canon that his difference only matters on low iso, so only landscape or sports on very good light are affected by the difference.



cameras are special you know. :

nobody would buy a ford pinto because it *can* transport you from point A to point B... when you can get a better car for the same money.

but when it comes to cameras all the old stuff is good enough for fanboys, as long as it carrys the canon logo. :

it´s good enough.. yeah... so why not just stop all the research and and just selling the 40D and 50D... meanwhile sony improves their sensors. :-X


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## roguewave (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > You need a good working SYSTEM to take a decent picture.... the sensor is only one part of that system so why is everyone so fixated on it?
> ...



Perhaps because at this point, Canon's APS-C sensors are the weak link that makes their CAMERA performance fall behind the competition, at least in areas like noise, DR, etc.?

Sensors are an important part of the system. After Canon has failed to deliver improvements in that particular area for several years, I don't find it strange that users complain about it.


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## unfocused (Mar 20, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> I suspect everyone is fixated on it for two reasons. First, in general, it's easy to measure sensor performance and plot the data or reduce the data to a single 'score'. Second, in particular on CR forums, it's an area where Canon is not leading, and some people like to create a stir by beating on that horse (we sometimes call them trolls...).



You are correct as usual – EXCEPT – is it really "an area where Canon is not leading?" Or is this troll-fueled internet forum conventional wisdom?

How is Canon behind in its full frame sensors? Canon has taken a different path in that Canon has decided to go for high ISO performance instead of higher megapixels (which, by the way is what the conventional internet forum wisdom was clamoring for prior to the release of the 5DIII). But, a different path isn't falling behind, it's a different path and one, frankly, that I prefer. Truth is, I don't really need either a lot more megapixels or a lot higher ISO, but if I'm going to get one, I'll take higher ISO. 

As for APS-C, Canon's flagship camera still uses a sensor that is better and newer than Nikon's flagship APS-C, so how is that falling behind? Nikon has put some interesting higher resolution sensors in their consumer models and maybe Canon is dragging their feet a bit in releasing their own versions, but it's hardly the end of the world. The higher megapixels do nothing for me and frankly the high ISO performance of the sensors Nikon is using is unimpressive, especially when you consider they are competing against Canon's nearly four-year-old sensor. 

But, even if one believes the competitors have moved ahead slightly, how is that bad? Products only improve when competitors offer something better or different. Canon wants my money and when they release the next product I want, they will get it. In the meantime, I'm not going to take it personally and act like the sky is falling.


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## MacPaul (Mar 20, 2013)

*Re: ...now CR rating?*



Jan said:


> Update: the rubber grips are different from those on a 650D. It really seems to be the 700D. Damn.


Sure it is! That's Canon, steps so small would mankind have made such we still would be in the dark ages...


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## zim (Mar 20, 2013)

psolberg said:


> YET ANOTHER 18MP APS-C from CANON!
> 
> They should earn an award for the most milked sensor in the history of photography! ah, what's an old sensor among friends right?



Nah I think the most milked sensor in the history of photography is FP4 ;D


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## Don Haines (Mar 20, 2013)

unfocused said:


> As for APS-C, Canon's flagship camera still uses a sensor that is better and newer than Nikon's flagship APS-C, so how is that falling behind? Nikon has put some interesting higher resolution sensors in their consumer models and maybe Canon is dragging their feet a bit in releasing their own versions, but it's hardly the end of the world. The higher megapixels do nothing for me and frankly the high ISO performance of the sensors Nikon is using is unimpressive, especially when you consider they are competing against Canon's nearly four-year-old sensor.


It is interesting...
After 4 years the Canon APS-C sensor is arguably ahead of Nikon, and the panasonic/olympus sensor is marginably better.... It's been 4 years at the top of the hill.... 4 years with better lenses and user interface and now they are starting to catch up on just the sensor component.... and this is coming at the time Canon is talking about 5D2-like performance out of the next release of camera... Oh my it hurts to shoot Canon... Oh the shame of it!


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## Don Haines (Mar 20, 2013)

zim said:


> psolberg said:
> 
> 
> > YET ANOTHER 18MP APS-C from CANON!
> ...


I would have said Kodachrome 64.....


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 20, 2013)

psolberg said:


> so if canon tomorrow released the 5Dmk4, which was 2MP, had 1 stop of dynamic range shot in black and white and maxed out at ISO 100, but was twice as good in every other way as the current camera, you'd buy it?


Hypothetical exaggerations should have some threshold ... this is plain absurd :


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 20, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> The Olympus OMD-EM5 has a better sensor than my 60D. I even have a bin of Oly lenses. The Canon 60D has a better user interface, it feels better in the hand, and it has a better selection of glass. Guess which one I use? Hint: system beats sensor...


+1 ... well said


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## zim (Mar 20, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > psolberg said:
> ...



;D ;D True and it had better DR


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## Rocguy (Mar 20, 2013)

I'd love the 70d, but I'd gladly upgrade to the t5i from my t4i if the noise with autofocus on during video recording was fixed...


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## Marsu42 (Mar 20, 2013)

Rocguy said:


> I'd love the 70d, but I'd gladly upgrade to the t5i from my t4i if the noise with autofocus on during video recording was fixed...



If anyone is learning about or teaching about planned obsolescence, Canon is your prime research object - fix bugs by updating the hardware, I wouldn't be surprised if they already have the specs for the t6i and t7i in the drawer  ... but all are good cameras, however the old 550d still seems to have the best "bang for the buck" with the same 18mp sensor and working Magic Lantern.


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## beautifulharnster (Mar 20, 2013)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/41758598 looks fab!!!


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## starship (Mar 21, 2013)

*the canon 700d. a true revolution...*

the revolutionary brother of a 2009 sensor will be released in march 2013.
we can´t wait...

we all love the hardcore retro-stuff.

btw: did you know, intel just announced their new pentium II, 800 mhz prozessor???


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## Don Haines (Mar 21, 2013)

beautifulharnster said:


> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/41758598 looks fab!!!



It's a joke post.... and if look at the comments its amazing how few get it.....

charges by solar power...... yet no solar panel visible.... and people carry cameras in bags....

boy are people easy to fool!


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## toodamnice (Mar 21, 2013)

So this $900 camera body has a better AF system than my $1900 6D? Nice.


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## beautifulharnster (Mar 21, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> beautifulharnster said:
> 
> 
> > http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/41758598 looks fab!!!
> ...



I know it was a joke, but i thought it the perfect time to bring it in as when you first start reading it very convincing ;D


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## beautifulharnster (Mar 21, 2013)

Sorry for my ignorance but how come CR hasn't got the latest on the 100D 700D etc this morning. I checked first thing and not much of a mention even in the forum, whereas I lokked on twitter next and just about every other camera and tech site and blog has all the details and hands on reviews etc?!


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## simonxu11 (Mar 21, 2013)

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-700d-rebel-t5i/2
The 651D is here............LOL
YAWN of the Year!!


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## Marsu42 (Mar 21, 2013)

simonxu11 said:


> The 651D is here............LOL



Canon won't stop until every person on this planet has bought one of their 18mp cameras (if they don't go ff) ... but on the bright side if the price goes down Canon-like after a couple of months this is a good first camera with even 5fps...


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## rpt (Mar 21, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> simonxu11 said:
> 
> 
> > The 651D is here............LOL
> ...


LOL!


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## mrsfotografie (Mar 21, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> simonxu11 said:
> 
> 
> > The 651D is here............LOL
> ...



Maybe we should have a poll: Who bought an 18mp Canon Aps-C body?

I'll put in the first vote ;D


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