# What modifiers (sizes) are speedlites good for?



## Stig (Jun 2, 2014)

Hi,

I don't do much with my flashes, but every now and then I would like to try it a bit more (not professionally, just play with it and learn something). I recently booked a workshop that should have been my first studio/model shoot experience, but it was canceled just two days in advance, so I thought I’ll use the money to buy some lights/modifiers and learn on my own as until now. 

I was googling some cheap alternatives as I don't feel like investing much now, but I want something more than my smallish DIY boxes. It seems that I could go with some fluorescent continuous set, or just buy something that I can stick my flashes into.

But I would like to ask you to enlighten me about lights a bit, so that I have an idea *what size of softbox/octobox has my 430ex enough power for* (I know, it depends... but you know, what will it just light up a bit and what will it make reasonably usable). 

Examples:
Continuous set of two 60cm(23.6") X 90cm (35.4") boxes... Usable? 
In description they offer more powerful bulbs (5bulbs per box, 45w vs 115w)... Necessary? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-outputs-light-head-60x90-Softbox-Studio-Continuous-lighting-kit-equals-2000W-/130747669475?pt=UK_Photography_Lighting_Units&hash=item1e712b1be3

And now, *430exII* in:

Octobox... There are reasonably priced 80cm, 110cm and 120cm ones ( 32 / 43 / 47 inches)... I would like the bigger one, but is that too much to ask from a speedlite (or two mounted on one bracket)?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Umbrella-Octagon-Softbox-Brolly-Reflector-Speedlite-with-Grid-120cm-/231042307421?pt=UK_Light_Controls_Softboxes_Diffusers&hash=item35cb31d55d

Will it handle this? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Umbrella-Octagon-Softbox-with-Grid-For-SpeedLight-Flash-80cm-32in-/310897184030?pt=UK_Light_Controls_Softboxes_Diffusers&hash=item4862ea8d1e

Beauty dish?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pro-White-Beauty-Dish-Honeycomb-Bowens-Mount-for-Flash-Strobe-42cm-16-5-/231201901724?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35d4b50c9c

Closed 110cm (43inch) umbrella?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Umbrella-Softbox-Soft-Brolly-Box-Reflector-Studio-43-/330861626445?pt=UK_Light_Controls_Softboxes_Diffusers&hash=item4d08e3c44d

*Thank you very much!*


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## Dylan777 (Jun 3, 2014)

To give you an idea, photo below was taken with three Canon 600EX. All mounted on Westcott 60" umbrella, 5ft away from the kids. f10, 1/200, ISO100 - SOOC, no edit.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/197057-REG/Westcott_2021_Umbrella_White_Satin.html

My biggest issue - have both kids to face the camera at same time with their smiles ;D


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 3, 2014)

Obviously depends on the distance to the object. But the power of the 430EX is enough to light (with large diffuser) objects up to 1.5 meter away. For longer distances, I would use small diffuser (15 x 20 cm) to not lose a lot of power.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 3, 2014)

What matters is surface area. With a 430EX II, I'd try to keep a softbox at around 600 in2 – a 24x24", a 30" octabox, 12x48" stripbox, etc. A 580/600 only gives another 2/3-stop of power, so you still can't go much bigger unless you start using multiple Speedlites in a modifier (Lastolite, Westcott, and others make brackets for 2-4 Speedlites).


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## Dylan777 (Jun 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> What matters is surface area. With a 430EX II, I'd try to keep a softbox at around 600 in2 – a 24x24", a 30" octabox, 12x48" stripbox, etc. A 580/600 only gives another 2/3-stop of power, so you still can't go much bigger unless you start using multiple Speedlites in a modifier (Lastolite, Westcott, and others make brackets for 2-4 Speedlites).



Just want to add to Neuro's note about speedlite bracket:

I bought this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/897247-REG/westcott_2223_bruce_dorn_triple_threat.html. One of my flashes came off. Good to know that Canon 600EXT survived 3ft drop to wood floor. Called BH and returned it.

I'm very happy with this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/850279-REG/Impact_fa_300hs_Triple_Hot_Shoe_Mount.html


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## IMG_0001 (Jun 3, 2014)

I've been pondering similar scenarios lately as I also am in the process (admitedly slow process) of learning off camera flash. I'm not really experienced yet, but hereb are some of my conclusion as far as gear is concerned.

-Continuous lights are really less powerful than flash and often not power adjustable. A 60Ws speedlight at full power with a flash duration of 1/500th second gives as much light while it burns as a 30000W continuous light during the same time (roughly). Comapre that to even a 6 bulbs continuous lighhtning and you are still far ahead. However, they are very inexpensive.

-I'll stiick to speedlites (I have a few old ones) and buy modifiers and some more flashes like manual yuongnuos. To me, this has the advantage of flexibility but requires remote triggers and a lot of batteries... I also think I would prefer Appollo type umbrella softbox to allow for mounting multiple flashes inside and use optical slaves instead of rf.

-There are a few not so expensive monolights that are very tempting in the longer run, but that would still require 600-1000$ to setup so in my case that is going to be postponed for over a year although that would be the setup I'd really want.

Now I need to stop shopping and commit to shooting...

Good luck.


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## mackguyver (Jun 3, 2014)

IMG_0001 said:


> -There are a few not so expensive monolights that are very tempting in the longer run, but that would still require 600-1000$ to setup so in my case that is going to be postponed for over a year although that would be the setup I'd really want.
> 
> Now I need to stop shopping and commit to shooting...
> 
> Good luck.


If you do the math, a set of Paul C Buff Alienbees or Einsteins, with wireless triggers, light stands, modifiers, Vagabond power pack, and carrying cases come out well ahead of buying 3, 6, 9, etc. 600RTs and all the trimmings, and they are more powerful, and can run on AC power. You lose portability, of course, but that's the math I did and I love my Einsteins...


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## Skirball (Jun 3, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> IMG_0001 said:
> 
> 
> > -There are a few not so expensive monolights that are very tempting in the longer run, but that would still require 600-1000$ to setup so in my case that is going to be postponed for over a year although that would be the setup I'd really want.
> ...



There are more options to off camera flash then 600RTs.


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## mackguyver (Jun 3, 2014)

Skirball said:


> mackguyver said:
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> > IMG_0001 said:
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Very true and I know the Yunqnuos (sp?) are very popular among strobists, but _for me_, the math and other factors like reliability steered me towards monolights. I have a set of 580EXIIs that I use for some off camera work, too


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## Stig (Jun 3, 2014)

Thank you for your replies!

I think I'm getting a bit better idea now... but also new questions and inspiration and googling (virtual window shopping)... like monolights...

I'm thinking I could start with a continuous set of two 60x90cm (23x35inch) boxes with 5x45w (or 60w) bulbs in each box and two stands, which would be around 140-180 euro (incl. shipping) like here http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3000w-Continuous-Softbox-Lighting-Studio-Kit-Photography-Photo-Video-Portrait-/151318574069?pt=UK_Photography_Lighting_Kits&hash=item233b4a33f5

but I still like the idea of 110-120cm (43-47inch) octobox... but seems that 430ex and/or my cheapo flash wont do that trick, so I was looking for cheap strobes today and since I would/should go for at least 400w one (*or not?*), that would be 150 euro already, only for that alone http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400W-400WS-Godox-DP-400-Professional-Studio-Strobe-Lighting-Lamp-Head-S525-/181292959754?pt=UK_Photography_Flash_Lighting_Kits&hash=item2a35e7080a 

plus an octobox (about 60euro) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120cm-octagonal-umbrella-grid-softbox-light-softbox-kit-for-Studio-Lighting-/310972461566?pt=UK_Light_Controls_Softboxes_Diffusers&hash=item48676731fe

and that's only one light (without own stand)... then again, after that I could add some umbrellas for a few euros and would have more options... and after some time, try a beauty dish...

aaah, the choices...


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## IMG_0001 (Jun 4, 2014)

Stig said:


> Thank you for your replies!
> 
> I think I'm getting a bit better idea now... but also new questions and inspiration and googling (virtual window shopping)... like monolights...
> 
> ...



Personally, I was initially very tempted by such inexpensive monolights, perticularly the Godox smart 300 sdi. However, I decided I'd start off with speedlights as I already had a some.

Googling around, I also saw that often these cheap monolights don't modulate power very efficiently and you may find yourself needing to put the lights unsuitably far to reduce the effective power and then your light gets harsher. I also feared that, as I'll shoot in a relatively small space, I'd run out of room to move the lights If I was not able to get the power low enough.

Nevertheless, in the long run I want to buy some decent monos, but I'll save and buy only when I can afford a reputable brand.

I would not buy continuous lights for photo, They are just not strong enough for my taste and don't usually allow for good power adjustment.


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## IMG_0001 (Jun 4, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> IMG_0001 said:
> 
> 
> > -There are a few not so expensive monolights that are very tempting in the longer run, but that would still require 600-1000$ to setup so in my case that is going to be postponed for over a year although that would be the setup I'd really want.
> ...



I've done the math, I can't afford AB or Einsteins and modifiers, let alone 3 to 9 600RT's. However, I can afford some stands and modifiers for the flashes I already own and may be 1-2 more Yongnuos. I believe I'll be able to learn from the inexpensive setup and by the time I feel like I know where I'm going, I should have the money for quality monolights.


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## mackguyver (Jun 4, 2014)

IMG_0001 said:


> mackguyver said:
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I think that sounds like a great plan!


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## Besisika (Jun 4, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> IMG_0001 said:
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> > mackguyver said:
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Agree, that sounds like a gret plan.
I would even start with simple things like small shoot through umbrellas. Master your technique and need first before buying things. I wish I listened to people when I started few years ago.
I would start with bounce flash (no modifier at all - gel at the most), then move to the art of rim, head, ambient and background lights with umbrellas. Then assess if you need HSS and TTL. Do you do only indoor, studio or outdoor as well.
Once you sure where you go then decide whether to by YN, 600RTs, Einstein, or Prophoto. 
These are for different needs. 
I wouldn't buy 9 600RTs to have main, rim, and head light outdoor at noon. I wouldn't use Eistein as well during photojournalism wth fluorescent light.
Good lighting! I heard, photography is about lighting and .. (maybe posing)


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## Skirball (Jun 4, 2014)

Besisika said:


> mackguyver said:
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I would have agreed with this awhile back, and it's the path I chose. But with all the options of cheap softboxes out there it just doesn't make sense to get umbrellas anymore. I shouldn't say that, umbrellas have their place, but there are several softboxes out there that are practically just umbrellas with a diffuser. They're more efficient with light, allow far more control, and only cost a few more dollars. I'd highly recommend them.

I don't doubt studio lights are great, and I'm sure I'd have a set if I actually had a dedicated studio area instead of my livingroom. But aside from having to recharge batteries I've never had a problem using speedlights. I'm usually at 1/16 power or less indoors. The only time I go higher is for product photography when I'm at small apertures, or coloring a grey backdrop. I've never had to use multiple lights in a modifier. If anything I've bumped against the minimum power limit more, when balancing with ambient light at wide apertures. Speedlights are plenty strong indoors. True, I wish they were more powerful against the sun, but taking monos out into the sun has its own hurdles.


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## mackguyver (Jun 4, 2014)

Skirball said:


> I don't doubt studio lights are great, and I'm sure I'd have a set if I actually had a dedicated studio area instead of my livingroom.


The wife factor is a pain and my monolights live under the guest bed most of the time but are easy to set up and take down. For some reason my wife doesn't think our living room looks good with studio lights (or weight lifting gear). Go figure!


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## Skirball (Jun 4, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> Skirball said:
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> > I don't doubt studio lights are great, and I'm sure I'd have a set if I actually had a dedicated studio area instead of my livingroom.
> ...



Lol. Mine is about the same. But my bike lives in our bedroom and my studio frequently take over the living room for the entire weekend, and she's good with it. So I can't complain.


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## IMG_0001 (Jun 4, 2014)

Skirball said:


> Besisika said:
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I have to say that I was planning on a softbox (24x24 or may be up to 24x36) in order to spill and bleed less of the valuable speedlite's juice and make it easier to darken the background if needed. Umbrellas are so inexpensive that I will most likely also get one...


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## IMG_0001 (Jun 4, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> Skirball said:
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> > I don't doubt studio lights are great, and I'm sure I'd have a set if I actually had a dedicated studio area instead of my livingroom.
> ...



If I had spent the price of an all-inclusive Caribbean holiday on lights, I guess my girlfriend would want to see me use them a lot! Did you know AlienBees come in a variety of stylish colors?


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## mackguyver (Jun 4, 2014)

IMG_0001 said:


> mackguyver said:
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> > Skirball said:
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LOL - I always end up taking my wife on fancy trips using my AMEX points racked up through photo gear purchases, so it's a win-win situation ;D And yes, they even come in pink, which one of the local femme photographers in town has! The Einstein comes in any color you like, as long it's black.

Hopefully your girlfriend will appreciate what ever gear you end up purchasing and I did display my lighting gear for an extended period of nearly 3 months, which is why I lost my studio privileges  I think my next purchase will be the new Vagabond Lithium Extreme so I can take my studio anywhere, wind permitting.


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## brad goda (Jun 5, 2014)

test your speed light behind a diffusion frame. 
keep distance from frame to subject but try diff distances of speed light to the frame and diff zoom settings…
you will quickly see the + and - to each variation.,, light quality and power… and of course the limitations of the speelights output.

change distance of frame to your subject for further testing… 
from there you can figure what kind of set box diffusion size density power requirements advantages and limitations…

have fun.


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## BL (Jun 5, 2014)

Stig said:


> I don't do much with my flashes, but every now and then I would like to try it a bit more (not professionally, just play with it and learn something). I recently booked a workshop that should have been my first studio/model shoot experience, but it was canceled just two days in advance, so I thought I’ll use the money to buy some lights/modifiers and learn on my own as until now.
> 
> I was googling some cheap alternatives as I don't feel like investing much now, but I want something more than my smallish DIY boxes. It seems that I could go with some fluorescent continuous set, or just buy something that I can stick my flashes into.



Start small, it's easy to overdo things and walk away confused after many hundreds or thousands of dollars later.

If you go the speedlite route, start with some 43" umbrellas (shoot through and reflective) and master those. Then work your way towards other modifiers to change up your light.

Between bare flash (with or without gobos) and umbrellas, I'm pretty much able to shoot 85%-90% of what I want.

Here's a simple shot I took of my boy, 43" shoot through umbrella from above and 43" silver reflective umbrella on axis. There's not much to it!


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## Stig (Jun 5, 2014)

Hi,

and again, *thanks *for sharing your tips and advise, and of course the beautiful photos.

I looked, read, googled, did some calculations, got even more confused when strobes came into the mix, but I think I'll call them too expensive*** for now and try a combo of: 

cfl (two 5x60w boxes/stands)http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3000w-Continuous-Softbox-Lighting-Studio-Kit-Photography-Photo-Video-Portrait-/151318574069?pt=UK_Photography_Lighting_Kits&hash=item233b4a33f5) 

and a brolly box + bracket for the speedlite http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/109cm-43-Umbrella-Softbox-Soft-Box-Brolly-Reflector-For-Studio-Flash-Strobe/310897212264?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222003%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D22313%26meid%3D7380530785298607357%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D9701%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D330861626445&rt=nc#ht_1609wt_1006 

and see whats what with those.

I still have some questions about modifiers, but I guess that's for a separate thread

and btw, about our other (better) halfs, I hope mine will give me at least 10minutes in front of the lights before going away and asking when will they be disassembled and stored away  ... do your wifes and girlfiends pose for you, or rather hate being in front of the camera?





***though I'm still looking at these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Digital-900w-Studio-Flash-Lighting-set-Photography-Strobe-light-Portrait-Kit/281008891976?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222003%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D22313%26meid%3D7380142445252548667%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D9701%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D231008381491&rt=nc#ht_5470wt_959 even though that would be twice as much as the combo above


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## Besisika (Jun 6, 2014)

Stig said:


> Hi,
> 
> and again, *thanks *for sharing your tips and advise, and of course the beautiful photos.
> 
> ...


I have two of the brolly boxes and I am pleased with them, especially used indoor on location. They are lightweight and very quick to assemble. It's a good idea to put your speedlites to 24mm zoom. Remember to check the battery of your flashes and transceivers often when shooting events, they are hidden within the boxes and you won't be able to see them from a distance (especially if you don't chimp).


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## Hannes (Jun 8, 2014)

don't waste time and money on continuous lights, they are either not bright enough or they melt your face.

My suggestion would be two of these, then add a yongnuo 560 III or two, suitable light stands and brackets:
http://www.essentialphoto.co.uk/product/essentialphoto-60x90cm-rectangular-5cm-grid-softbox-s-type-fitting/


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## Stig (Jun 8, 2014)

ye, I came across this test... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTJcBLrtBXA
and seem that fluorescent aren't too hot, but they also seem to have really just a fraction to the power of even a small strobe... than again, why would I put it 3m away? and It seems it isn't too useless... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkUqBJoxZ-I

so anyway, while I was inclined to base my set on this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Continuous-Softbox-Studio-Lighting-Boom-Kit-3300w-Photography-Photo-Portrait-3-/151318574739?pt=UK_Photography_Lighting_Kits&hash=item233b4a3693

now I think I'd rather put some more money into it and base it on these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pro-Photo-Studio-540w-Light-180W-x3-Strobe-Flash-monolight-Lighting-kit-set-S602-/151049091293?pt=UK_Photography_Flash_Lighting_Kits&hash=item232b3a38dd plus some universal mount softboxes, stands, boom arm... I would end up spending more but...?

and for even a bit more money, I found an ad close by where I live for a "little use", about 2year old set of:
4x strobes Quantum 200Ws
1x octabox 150cm
1x octabox 80cm
2x softbox 40x180cm 
1x softbox 60x60cm
1x background reflector
1x beauty dish 70cm white
5x stands

so I think I will check that tomorrow...


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## mackguyver (Jun 9, 2014)

Stig, that sounds like a nice set if it's been taken care of and can be had for a good price. Florescents are great for studios where you can control all of the ambient light (i.e. make it very dark inside) but are too weak for most settings and are really more for the video guys, at least for now. HMI lighting is what the Hollywood types use and is very hot and very expensive...but some high end photographers use them as well. 

Strobes are the best choice unless portability is a concern (especially air travel), and then flashes/speedlites are the way to go.


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