# will canon make more pancakes?



## wickidwombat (Jun 12, 2012)

there seems to be a fair bit of interest in the shorty 40 (love that name!)

so will this be the start of a series of pancakes? I'd be pretty interested in a 20 or 21mm f2.8 pancake of similar design and price


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## itsnotmeyouknow (Jun 12, 2012)

BozillaNZ said:


> Is any other company making a series of pancakes other than the base 40mm FF equivalent FoV ones?
> 
> No. Those 20mm 21mm pancakes are for M4/3 system, which will be equivalent to 40mm on FF. Anything longer/wider would not be possible since the 40mm "normal" lens is the simplest.



I'm normally quite stupid in regard to technical things, but doesn't matter what system it is a 20mm lens is a 20 mm lens. Makes no difference how the sensor sees it, so the physics are the same. Could be wrong, but just my punt.


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## moreorless (Jun 12, 2012)

BozillaNZ said:


> Is any other company making a series of pancakes other than the base 40mm FF equivalent FoV ones?
> 
> No. Those 20mm 21mm pancakes are for M4/3 system, which will be equivalent to 40mm on FF. Anything longer/wider would not be possible since the 40mm "normal" lens is the simplest.



Pentax? the current 21mm and 70mm limated primes are I'd say small enough to be called pancakes and the 15mm isnt far off.

With Canon going mirrorless though I'm guessing if we see many more pancakes it'll be on a new mount for those cameras.


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## wickidwombat (Jun 13, 2012)

BozillaNZ said:


> Is any other company making a series of pancakes other than the base 40mm FF equivalent FoV ones?
> 
> No. Those 20mm 21mm pancakes are for M4/3 system, which will be equivalent to 40mm on FF. Anything longer/wider would not be possible since the 40mm "normal" lens is the simplest.



http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Voigtlander-COLOR-SKOPAR-20mm-F3-5-SL-II-Canon-/230760887096?pt=AU_Lenses&hash=item35ba6bb338
I thought this looked pretty pancakey maybe its more of a pikelet
Sorry I'm off to get my eyes checked now


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## wickidwombat (Jun 13, 2012)

you are correct

I still think a 20mm pancake would be cool though


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## FunPhotons (Jun 15, 2012)

The Voightlander 20mm is a pancake lens, they also have a 40mm (why is that a popular pancake?) and a small 90mm short tele. I've got the 20mm pancake coming in today, looking forward to it.


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## crasher8 (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm going to go directly to my 24-70 and tell it it cannot play with my 7D any longer. Bad lens, you're in time out.


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## dr croubie (Jun 17, 2012)

itsnotmeyouknow said:


> I'm normally quite stupid in regard to technical things, but doesn't matter what system it is a 20mm lens is a 20 mm lens. Makes no difference how the sensor sees it, so the physics are the same. Could be wrong, but just my punt.



Yesno.
Flange distance (mount to sensor) on a canon is 44mm (45.46 on pentax, 46.5 on nikon). So the 'easiest' lenses to design are in this ballpark, and why most pancakes are 35-50mm or so for dslrs (lots around 40mm, just shorter than the flange distance).
Longer Fmm than this and it becomes more and more telephoto (light-ray bending) to get the lens more pancaked. Shorter Fmm than this and you need to design more as retrofocus or reverse-tele (and the lens also gets longer).

4/3-mount is 38.67mm, so pancakes make most sense around 30-40mm.
Micro-4/3-mount is 19.25, so pancakes are easiest to design (and thinnest) at the 15-20mm length.
Because they both use the same 2x crop factor, a 4/3 pancake will be 60-80mm FF-equivalent-FOV, a m4/3 pancake will be 30-40mm FF-eFOV.


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2012)

I would like to see a 30mm f 2.8 EF-S mount from Canon. That will make a lot APS-C user happy.


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## mb66energy (Jun 17, 2012)

itsnotmeyouknow said:


> BozillaNZ said:
> 
> 
> > Is any other company making a series of pancakes other than the base 40mm FF equivalent FoV ones?
> ...



As BozillaNZ explained - a 20mm lens for FF needs to manage a larger angle for the light rays to fill out the sensor area. And I come to the same conclusion: If they will offer a 20mm EF pancake it will have F/4 but ... who cares? I think it depends on the qualities the lens has. If it is sth. like a 6 group 9 lens design with optimized coatings and one or two aspherical elements it might deliver optimum quality straight from F/4 and will be capable to manage harsh contralight situations. 20mm @ FF means that there is a good chance to have light sources within the frame - a low number of glass-air boundaries helps a lot to maximize contrast. 

I think it is a great development that older lens designs (like the double gaussian for the 40mm pancake) are "polished" by Canon with modern technologies (aspherical lens for the 40mm pancake) and stay conservative in terms of max aperture.

My next dream lens: A very short 200mm F/4 with IS would be welcome - lets say 100mm length + 400 g + sturdy magnesium alloy construction. Not a pancake but really attractive!

After Canon fulfilled my dream about a 40mm pancake ... to fill the gap in my signature ... there is some hope for other surprises!


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## RLPhoto (Jun 17, 2012)

Perhaps, canon would require an outside company like hungry jack or pills bury to develop the very best pancakes!


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## crasher8 (Jun 18, 2012)

What would make more sense for a competitor to the Sigma 30? An EF or EF-s Canon lens?


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## Random Orbits (Jun 18, 2012)

crasher8 said:


> What would make more sense for a competitor to the Sigma 30? An EF or EF-s Canon lens?



A fast EF-S. For EF, the 35L is close in focal length and is already an excellent lens.


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## crasher8 (Jun 18, 2012)

Random Orbits said:


> crasher8 said:
> 
> 
> > What would make more sense for a competitor to the Sigma 30? An EF or EF-s Canon lens?
> ...



Yes but a competitor on price as well.


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## ksuweh (Jun 18, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> there seems to be a fair bit of interest in the shorty 40 (love that name!)
> 
> so will this be the start of a series of pancakes? I'd be pretty interested in a 20 or 21mm f2.8 pancake of similar design and price



Voigtlander makes a 20mm for a FF EF mount that is very close to being a "pancake" in size. Very high quality optically as well!

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/676633-REG/Voigtlander_BA295AC_Color_Skopar_20mm_f_3_5.html


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## Random Orbits (Jun 18, 2012)

crasher8 said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > crasher8 said:
> ...



Canon does not seem to want to compete at the lower price levels with the exception of the 40mm pancake. Maybe their video lens strategy will be different their their still lens strategy, where every lens revision brings with it a large price increase. I don't see Canon replicating Sigma's lens line up at the same price as what Sigma offers.


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## AvTvM (Jun 18, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> Perhaps, canon would require an outside company like hungry jack or pills bury to develop the very best pancakes!



hehe ... IHOP would be a another center of competence for pancakes! 

Expect a brandnew, exciting series of pancakes on National pancake day (Feb 28)! http://www.ihoppancakeday.com/


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## Kernuak (Jun 18, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps, canon would require an outside company like hungry jack or pills bury to develop the very best pancakes!
> ...


I still think Canon missed a trick when they didn't announce on Shrove Tuesday .


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## Wideopen (Jun 19, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> Perhaps, canon would require an outside company like hungry jack or pills bury to develop the very best pancakes!



Lol


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## psolberg (Jun 20, 2012)

I'm skeptical such lens will perform well. But I'm willing to be proven wrong. When a lens is designed to fit a ruler instead of deliver optical performance....things usually don't work out.


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## dr croubie (Jun 20, 2012)

psolberg said:


> I'm skeptical such lens will perform well. But I'm willing to be proven wrong. When a lens is designed to fit a ruler instead of deliver optical performance....things usually don't work out.



Normally, you're right, and that's probably why canon's never made a pancake before (afaik).

But comparing the MTF of the pancake, 50/1.8 and 50/1.4, the pancake looks to be clearly winning.
Whether that's because of a rushed and/or lower-quality design of the 50s, or because it's easier to design slower lenses, or just 20 years-newer coatings or what, i don't know.

To be fairer we should compare the Pancake to the 50/2.5 Macro, anyone got the MTFs of that?


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## AvTvM (Jun 20, 2012)

dr croubie said:


> ..
> But comparing the MTF of the pancake, 50/1.8 and 50/1.4, the pancake looks to be clearly winning.
> Whether that's because of a rushed and/or lower-quality design of the 50s, or because it's easier to design slower lenses, or just 20 years-newer coatings or what, i don't know.
> 
> To be fairer we should compare the Pancake to the 50/2.5 Macro, anyone got the MTFs of that?



To be fairer, we should compare the Shorty 40 MTF to contemporaray 50's ... Nikon AF-S 50/1.4 and Sigma 50/1.4


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