# EOS M Finally Getting Attention from Canon in 2016? [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 21, 2015)

```
We’re told Canon is actively developing EOS M and EF-M products and 2016 will be the year they “get serious about the platform”. Multiple zoom and prime lenses are in the late state of development and announcements should begin in the first part of 2016.</p>
<p>We’re also told that an EOS M4 will be a global product and a departure from what we’ve seen through the first 3 iterations. There was no information on sensor size, but I suspect APS-C will remain part of the system.</p>
<p>It would be a great if Canon put real resources into developing the EOS M system.</p>
```


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## Chaitanya (Aug 21, 2015)

would like to see two macro lens(35mm and 90mm) along with some wide angle pancake primes.


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## SeppOz (Aug 21, 2015)

Hope this one turns out to be true


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## HaroldC3 (Aug 21, 2015)

Hopefully their sensor development can catch up with Sony.


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## docsmith (Aug 21, 2015)

I'd love to see this. I am not one that is clamoring for more lenses. The group they currently have is pretty nice. The 18-55 IS pretty much never leaves the body and is pretty impressive, granted, a bit wider would be better. 

But, this is a backup body for when I want a second or smaller camera. I am already considering upgrading from the M1 to the M3. This would either make the M3 less expensive (excellent) or add features to the M4.


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## Eagle Eye (Aug 21, 2015)

HaroldC3 said:


> Hopefully their sensor development can catch up with Sony.



Yet, strangely, Sony's hoping their sales can catch up with Canon's. Not looking likely...


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## Eagle Eye (Aug 21, 2015)

This would be great news. I recently put together a landscape kit based around the EOS M2 to keep my travel weight low. My full kit is based around a 5d Mark II with a 16-35 f/4, a Zeiss 50mm Makro, and a 70-300L. I took the M2 kit to Hawaii this year to shoot remote parts of Maui and have already sold two prints from that trip that have covered about 90% of the cost of the kit. The EOS M is a very capable system for landscape in the hands of someone who knows how to pull light (anyone with real technique and some GND filters). It's 80% of the 5d Mark II and 120% of the 5d Mark II when weight matters. 80% is good enough for me. Some of my best images were shot on a 20d. Apart from weather resistance, the EOS M2 blows that camera away. 

In terms of lenses, I'd like to see an EF-M 18-135mm with a 55mm filter size (to match the 11-22), a 35mm f/2, a 50mm f/2, and a 35mm f/2.8 Macro. I'd also love to see a new retro-style mirrorless full frame (6d Mark I sensor in a A-1 body?) with an FD mount, but I suspect I'm in the minority there.


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## RGF (Aug 21, 2015)

Like to see high FPS, even if slightly lower than 20 MP resolution.

30 FPS, 4+K would be great


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## shutterlag (Aug 21, 2015)

Gee, you think the flood of former Canon users to Sony has something to do with that?


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## mustafa (Aug 21, 2015)

My choice would be something optimised for street/travel. In other words very fast reactions, EVF essential.

My bet is it won't be "M4". The number 4 is not well-regarded in the Far East - associated with death(?). MX? Or maybe Ricoh/Pentax own that.


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## casperl (Aug 21, 2015)

mustafa said:


> My choice would be something optimised for street/travel. In other words very fast reactions, EVF essential.
> 
> My bet is it won't be "M4". The number 4 is not well-regarded in the Far East - associated with death(?). MX? Or maybe Ricoh/Pentax own that.



I think it may still be called as M4. BMW M4 does exist in the Far East after all


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## lw (Aug 21, 2015)

So how many years is that?
Released in 2012, and they were going to get serious with the M in 2013, 2014, 2015, and now 2016.
And you really believe it this time? ???


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## cellomaster27 (Aug 21, 2015)

thank you Sony. Canon doesn't listen to its customers but responds... late to competition. haha I'm excited to see what the future generations of the m system will bring!


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2015)

I'll get excited when 'get serious' includes offering:


EF-M lenses with USM
An integral EVF
DPAF

- A


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## jeffa4444 (Aug 21, 2015)

Ive not been too excited about the EOS M range thus far and stuck with the Olympus OM-D E-M10 and various lenses. However Im not altogether happy with the results given the advances in technology and that smaller sensor shows its limitations. 
If Canon ups it game in this area and Im able to use my DSLR lenses with an adaptor like the present cameras then I think I will ditch the Oly and become pure Canon (after purchasing the 6D MKII)


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## TeT (Aug 21, 2015)

mustafa said:


> ...
> My bet is it won't be "M4". The number 4 is not well-regarded in the Far East - ...



number 4 in chinese is "nearly homophonous to the word death"(thank you Wiki)

In that case it is time to go FF with the M and call it the Canon W (W for What because I have no imaginantion)

John


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## bf (Aug 21, 2015)

I doubt ef-m mount can cover a FF sensor; the system would continue on APSC. I do wish for more ef-m quality glasses.


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## Hjalmarg1 (Aug 21, 2015)

HaroldC3 said:


> Hopefully their sensor development can catch up with Sony.


I hope it brings similar performance to the Sony a6000 in AF speed, ISO performance, burst rate and wifi connectivity. If so, Canon take my money


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## rs (Aug 21, 2015)

dilbert said:


> HaroldC3 said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully their sensor development can catch up with Sony.
> ...



Yeah, there's plenty of Sony sensors readily available with a 1.6x crop :


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## AvTvM (Aug 21, 2015)

what's really needed is a fully competitive Canon EOS M BODY - no matter whether its called M4 or M5 or whatever.
* Excellent, built-in EVF
* AF performance at least as good as Samsung NX-1 or even better. Don't care, whether it is next generation DPAF or just "regular" hybrid AF - as long as it delivers speed and precision, including tracking AF 
* no pop-up flash to keep things compact, but an integrated RT speedlite commander 

Current EF-M lens lineup is a more than good enough already. Really missing is only a super-compact "pancake" portrait tele - e.g. EF-M 85/2.0 IS STM. Personally I am perfectly fine with STM AF drive, don't need USM, although I would not mind either, if price stays low. Longer tele lenses makes no sense, since they cannot be built smaller than respective EF-S/EF lenses. Macro lens - don't need one, I use the really good EF-S 60/2.8. Canon could just repackage that optical formula into a slightly more compact EF-M with STM-AF and be done.


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## DRR (Aug 21, 2015)

I was a pre-firesale owner of the original M. It was a nice little camera and I liked it a lot, however two major deficiencies made me jump from the platform.

First, lack of an integrated EVF. The back LCD is unusuable in direct sunlight. Without an EVF, you have no option aside from spray and pray.

Second, I found the ergonomics to be seriously lacking. It's heavy enough to warrant a proper grip but it never fit my hand right. I would have gladly accepted a slightly larger camera that was easier to hold and use. Further there's no dial to easily adjust settings, aside from the rear dial. The rear dial was cumbersome to use for this function because it also acts as 4 buttons and it's too easy to accidentally do a button press when you're trying to adjust aperture or shutter speed. And there was no button to map the video record button to back button focus.

It took excellent pictures and I found all the EF-M lenses to be excellent, but the body was just lacking for me. The M3 comes pretty close, if it had an EVF I probably would have bought one. For now, I am putting together a Sony E-mount kit for my small/travel kit. If an M4 appears that checks all the boxes then I'll probably move back to the system.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 21, 2015)

mustafa said:


> My bet is it won't be "M4". The number 4 is not well-regarded in the Far East - associated with death(?).



That must be why Nikon didn't name their last two high-end professional bodies the D4 and D4S. Oh, wait..... :


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## bholliman (Aug 21, 2015)

Hope this happens. I have an M1 that is my small, light-weight kit, but it would be great to have a greater lens selection in the M mount to keep the size small. I have an EOS-M adapter for my EF lenses, but almost never use EF lenses on it since the size defeats the strength of the M system.


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## LDS (Aug 21, 2015)

I really believe Canon needs to split the M line in at least two models, one higher-end camera with integrated EVF and more "pro" features (even if attempting in not eating too much into its DLSR line), and one lower-end one, without EVF and some lesser specs and price.
Trying to build a camera appealing to both power users in search of a smaller camera when a DSLR is too bulky to carry around, and users looking for a "cheap" camera yet with the versatility of interchangeable lenses is impossible, the result usually is a "jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none".
IMHO I'll believe Canon is really giving attention to this market segment when I'll see that.


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## bp (Aug 21, 2015)

Oh Canon... [pats Canon's shoulder] So sweet of you to try at least. Very sweet. The new additions to my forum signature doesn't mean we can't still be friends, OK?


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## 1Zach1 (Aug 21, 2015)

I love my M, but I wouldn't want it to be much bigger than it currently is. I like the idea of a EVF, but if that comes at the cost of significantly larger, it would drop the usefulness of the camera for me. 

Would love a small form factor Macro and super fast 50mm pancake.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 21, 2015)

bp said:


> Oh Canon... [pats Canon's shoulder] So sweet of you to try at least. Very sweet. The new additions to my forum signature doesn't mean we can't still be friends, OK?



I doubt if Canon think you buying an A7RII will make much difference to their projected future M sales. 

Just a thought, but the world doesn't revolve around any of us, including Canon......


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## LonelyBoy (Aug 21, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> mustafa said:
> 
> 
> > My bet is it won't be "M4". The number 4 is not well-regarded in the Far East - associated with death(?).
> ...



And the 1D reached a mkIV. Still, it's cited as the reason Mazda doesn't sell anything with "4" in the name, and I have it on good authority that hotels in Singapore and Hong Kong often skip floors 4 and 14. There's certainly no guarantee that Canon will avoid releasing a model with "4" in the name, but it's also not ignorant to suggest the possibility.

Also, my Chinese girlfriend got "44" for her race number in a half-ironman and had a slight freakout and insisted on having the numbers upside-down every place they were applied.


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2015)

DRR said:


> Second, I found the ergonomics to be seriously lacking. It's heavy enough to warrant a proper grip but it never fit my hand right. I would have gladly accepted a slightly larger camera that was easier to hold and use. Further there's no dial to easily adjust settings, aside from the rear dial.



That's an excellent point. Everyone (myself included) are dwelling on sensors, lenses, AF speed, etc. but few are discussing the feel of handling, the similarity of control set to the SLRs, etc.

There used to be a time that any time you grabbed a company's product -- even if it was 2nd rate horsepower/spec-wise -- it felt like other products in that company's arsenal. That small distinction matters.

I think there is value in even a smaller APS-C mirrorless rig handling like it's bigger SLR brethren. I'd love my 5D3 back wheel / joystick / index finger wheel on a mirrorless rig someday, though it may need to be FF-sized to make room for all that. 

- A


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## McRphoto (Aug 21, 2015)

A mix of M3 and SL1?


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 21, 2015)

K.I.S.S. = keep it small, stupid.


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## Act444 (Aug 21, 2015)

I'll believe it if/when I see it...


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## CANONisOK (Aug 21, 2015)

I'm a big believer in the system. I've taken the OG M as my travel camera for a number of recent family trips around Europe and been really happy with the IQ from my tiny system. 

They may not have a large number, but the canon EF-M lenses are small and great (esp. 22mm and 11-22mm). I also picked up the Tamron 18-200mm superzoom, and love the IQ and convenience.

Is the IQ as good as full frame! If course not. I was contemplating going with a leica to get even more IQ in a small size, but cannot yet justify the money. Considered the A7r ii, but faster native lenses are huge, so the portability is no better than my 5D3 while ergonomics are sacrificed.

So I'm happy to stick to the M ecosystem for now. I really think it strikes a great balance between performance, size, affordability, and ease of use.

I could be a bit disheartened by this news arriving today, as my M3 with EVF kit just arrived yesterday. But I'm too damn excited to try out the improved form factor plus sensor and know I'll get great use or if it in the coming months and years.


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## Bob Howland (Aug 21, 2015)

Act444 said:


> I'll believe it if/when I see it...



+1


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## Bernard (Aug 21, 2015)

I just got an M3. Great little camera. It wouldn't need much to make it perfect.
I like how some useful features now have their own buttons (ISO and zoom-in/out). The original M made you use the touch screen a little too much.
I would ditch the built-in flash and put a viewfinder in its place. The M3 kit I got came with an external VF. It's good, but it makes the camera a lot bigger.
The EOS-M team needs to watch their weight. This one's still acceptably small, but I could see them releasing something that's as big as an SLR just to satisfy the spec-sheet whiners. The M fit inside my hand, this one I have to wrap my hand around.
The tilt screen is nice, but it's not needed. It's for the selfie crowd.
IQ is great, no problem there. 25MP is plenty. They can stay at that level in the next iteration.
Video is excellent, as always with Canon. In fact, it's so good you almost want 4K.

The only lens that's missing is a small wide prime (in the 15 to 17 range). All the longer stuff can be adapted from the SLR range, and 3 zooms is enough. Just because other systems offer a selection of 6 different wide-to-tele zooms doesn't mean you need them. One good one is enough.


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## that1guyy (Aug 21, 2015)

Looks like Sony is finally lighting a fire under Canon's crusty butt.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 21, 2015)

Well it's no great surprise actually.

Between the M2 and the M3 .. Canon transititioned who exactly is working on the EOS-M - it's no longer the DSLR folks that much is evident.

it's a powershot, with powershot firmware and with interchangeable lenses.

given to how the powershot line has basically downgraded to almost just the G series with almost everything else culled for scraps, canon has a ton of resources that are basically, well, doing nothing.

so it would make alot of sense for us to see more effort put into the EOS-M because you could see the seeds of it already.

however - because it's powershot firmware, it's got alot of flaws. AF isnt' as fast as it could be, AEB is horribly slow, and even a 4.2 fps is now pretty pedestrian.

Canon did mention they wanted to be #1 in the domestic mirrorless market by end of 2016, they have ALOT of work to do to even come close, and they will have to do an olympus to do it as well - basically give away M3 camera bodies with two lenses.

I had to laugh at the 4+K video that someone mentioned.. considering you can cook eggs on A7RII and 4K .. and you want >4k out of an even smaller camera?


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## brad-man (Aug 21, 2015)

LDS said:


> *I really believe Canon needs to split the M line in at least two models, one higher-end camera with integrated EVF and more "pro" features (even if attempting in not eating too much into its DLSR line), and one lower-end one, without EVF and some lesser specs and price.*Trying to build a camera appealing to both power users in search of a smaller camera when a DSLR is too bulky to carry around, and users looking for a "cheap" camera yet with the versatility of interchangeable lenses is impossible, the result usually is a "jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none".
> IMHO I'll believe Canon is really giving attention to this market segment when I'll see that.



This makes the most sense to me. Produce a "high-end" M-something with an integrated EVF and a full set of convenient controls a la Fuji (performance, not style), and also continue to offer the M with the terrific IQ/size ratio that all five of us have come to appreciate. The M mount need not be limited to a single body style. And please more fast pancakes...


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## twagn (Aug 21, 2015)

shutterlag said:


> Gee, you think the flood of former Canon users to Sony has something to do with that?



Competition is win win for consumers...Canon can do much better than their current mirrorless offerings. Glad that someone is pushing them


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## bp (Aug 21, 2015)

twagn said:


> shutterlag said:
> 
> 
> > Gee, you think the flood of former Canon users to Sony has something to do with that?
> ...



YES!!! This is why I don't get why fanboy types get so bent out of shape about other brands getting good press, and try to tear it down. They don't get the fact that it can help them in the long run.


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## scrup (Aug 21, 2015)

m4 will probably be as much of an upgrade from the m1 to m2 was.

The only thing that would make me buy another mirroless from canon is if it is full frame or if my m1 and m3 dies.

I caught the vintage lens bug from the m3 so what i really want is IS and better manual focusing aids. The new Sony's are better in both these departments. 

Once the a7ii hits the 1k mark i will be pulling the trigger. In the meantime i will use the m3 and pick up some more legacy glass.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 21, 2015)

shutterlag said:


> Gee, you think the flood of former Canon users to Sony has something to do with that?



sony and it's 10% marketshare? not likely.

canon mentioned early on this year that their domestic goal was to be #1 in japan for mirrorless by the end of 2016.

They OBVIOUSLY have to do much more if they want to do that. tells you these plans were in the making for a fairly long time.

Not to mention in Japan Olympus is far more of a threat - particularly because Olympus is literally selling off stock for free in japan.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 21, 2015)

scrup said:


> m4 will probably be as much of an upgrade from the m1 to m2 was.



I would expect this too. the firmware we saw out of the G3X wasn't exactly awe inspiring and the M is on the same code base so i don't expect much.


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## Bob Howland (Aug 21, 2015)

rrcphoto said:


> ...and the M is on the same code base...



How do you know that?


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## scrup (Aug 21, 2015)

Its like a sign.

Canonrumor ads showing a sony a7rii.


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## LonelyBoy (Aug 21, 2015)

McRphoto said:


> A mix of M3 and SL1?



What exactly does the M3 bring to the table over the SL1, other than being a hair shorter with the 22/2?


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## aclectasis (Aug 22, 2015)

I have a 5d III and an EOS M and recently moved to Sony. I now have an A7S and it's great, everything I want as a professional video shooter. Canon have already failed to show up to a race Sony won a year (at least) ago. This news is pathetic and shows how halfheartedly they have, are, and will treat the system in the future.


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## StudentOfLight (Aug 22, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> K.I.S.S. = keep it small, stupid.


This is Canon we're talking about
M.A.K.E.O.U.T. = Missing Ass-Kicking Elements, Obviously Uninspired Technology


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Aug 22, 2015)

I bought a NEX5 when they first came out and kept my 5D/7D DSLRs for "serious" work. Over the years I couldn't help but notice I was shooting the NEX5 more and more. The IQ is great. It is a LOT smaller than the DSLRs. It was easy to take everywhere.

Then Sony went and did a very un-photography-like thing and added WiFi and NFC, and in-camera apps. To make matters worse, they offered sensor quality that clearly exceeded Canon's at the ISO I shoot. It wasn't cheap, but I switched systems.

So... let's say Canon really does come out with a "serious" update to the EOS-M system. Why would I be compelled to return? Please tell me, Mr. Canon.


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## Antono Refa (Aug 22, 2015)

Eagle Eye said:


> HaroldC3 said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully their sensor development can catch up with Sony.
> ...



Your point being that Canon sells better because it's sensors are inferior?


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## AvTvM (Aug 22, 2015)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> So... let's say Canon really does come out with a "serious" update to the EOS-M system. Why would I be compelled to return? Please tell me, Mr. Canon.



A truly kick-ass canon "EOS M4 Pro" would be fairly easy to do. Put in EVF, improve sensor by another little step, put DPAF into it, stick LP-E6N battery knto it, and keep form factor like M3, not bigger. And the EF-M lens line-up with "only" 4 good, nicely-priced lenses already covers almost everything needed and delivers optical performance superior to the entire bloated lineup of Sony E-mount lenses - including those with Zeiss badge on them (talking about APS-C lenses, not FF).

Add some unique advantages like a built in canon RT radio flash controller and eye control AF v2.0 on the built-in EVF and canon could literally sell millions of it - if they manage for once to put a realistic sticker price on it ... 949 body, 999 kit w/18-55. problem solved, as far as APS-C mirrorless is concerned.

FF mirrorless will take a much bigger effort.


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## Tyroop (Aug 22, 2015)

> We’re also told that an EOS M4 will be a global product and a departure from what we’ve seen through the first 3 iterations.


So, no more driving across international borders, and I'll be able to buy an M4 and any new EF-M lenses without being forced to buy kits that contain lenses that I already own? Wow, thank you Canon.


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## dufflover (Aug 22, 2015)

Depends where they are getting serious on it.
The body? (like the AF or usability to match the current mirrorless market)? Or the lenses? Or ... ?

I hope they can make a few more pancake lenses for it; for me the M is about the size, thus unless they do something like the RX100 III I'd rather not have a VF if it just adds bulk.


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## DRR (Aug 22, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> ChristopherMarkPerez said:
> 
> 
> > So... let's say Canon really does come out with a "serious" update to the EOS-M system. Why would I be compelled to return? Please tell me, Mr. Canon.
> ...



So basically... a smaller Rebel with an EF-M mount. Not that I'm complaining.

It's actually what I have been predicting for a while now, the Rebel line will lose the mirror box at some point and go mirrorless with an EF-M. Based on the two camps here, ("No bigger than current M" and "need better ergonomics") I think it makes sense to split the EF-M line into two lines - small and compact, and a larger "pro" M. The "pro M" line could be the next gen Rebels...


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## ashmadux (Aug 22, 2015)

DRR said:


> I was a pre-firesale owner of the original M. It was a nice little camera and I liked it a lot, however two major deficiencies made me jump from the platform.
> 
> First, lack of an integrated EVF. The back LCD is unusable in direct sunlight. Without an EVF, you have no option aside from spray and pray.
> 
> ...



Not sure I understand this. I am a firesale owner as well, and it has replaced my G12 as my go to camera. I have never encountered a situation where i couldn't use the lcd in sunlight. When checking the lcd with the sun behind you, one can simply use a hand to cover to shade the screen for better visibility. But with that said, the situation is rare, it still has never been unusable. And I carry this thing around every day. Since the screen does not flip however, I have learned to put my hand under the body so that it kills the reflection from look down at the screen well off angle.

Spray and play is one thing I could never do with this body though, as the AF is just too slow.

I played with the m3+11-22 in tokyo and i would LOVE to have the flexible screen (need it, actually), though it seemed like the interface speed took a hit from the m1/2. Af was FAST, no worries there. The body is mell done, great grip, and overall i would just love to have this machine. I asked a salesguy at BH if they heard anything about a return to the US market, and they said nay.


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## bf (Aug 22, 2015)

CR: M3 coming to the north America.
CR: M4 will be a serious and global camera.
4 is a bad number in Asia!

=> M4 will be a slightly modified M3 for the US!


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## dickgrafixstop (Aug 22, 2015)

why does this whole thing sound like pasting "eagle feathers on a turkey" 'cause it still "ain't gonna fly!"


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2015)

dickgrafixstop said:


> why does this whole thing sound like pasting "eagle feathers on a turkey" 'cause it still "ain't gonna fly!"



I guess Japanese turkeys can fly, or maybe you have some other explanation for the EOS M being the #2 best selling camera in that country.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 22, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> dickgrafixstop said:
> 
> 
> > why does this whole thing sound like pasting "eagle feathers on a turkey" 'cause it still "ain't gonna fly!"
> ...



Dick has clearly been raised on bloated store bought turkeys. Time to look outside and see the real world not the one we are fed?



> _"Despite their weight, wild turkeys, unlike their domesticated counterparts, are agile fliers."_



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_turkey


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## photogdan (Aug 22, 2015)

My first post 

I have a 6D and use an M3 as backup. The M3 has become the travel body of choice. I think it's a great alternative.

Native lenses would be nice but with so many options through the adapter, I don't see myself jumping in head first. Especially if there is a similar EF/EF-S lens already available.

For me to make the move to the next iteration of Canon mirrorless would take at least a FF sensor, EF-M or otherwise.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 22, 2015)

photogdan said:


> My first post
> 
> I have a 6D and use an M3 as backup. The M3 has become the travel body of choice. I think it's a great alternative.
> 
> ...



The EF-M mount cannot support a FF sensor, it is too small, it will never happen. I don't see Canon introducing another lens mount for a FF mirrorless. 

Therefore I suspect Canon see the APS-C sensor as the logical 'right size' sensor to put in a system that is supposed to have smaller size as a key element. Lenses for FF mirrorless are not significantly smaller, lighter or cheaper than EF lenses anyway, in some cases they are bigger, heavier and more expensive.


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## Wizardly (Aug 22, 2015)

All I want from the M4 is the Fuji X-Pro 1 style dual viewfinder built-in. If it doesn't have a viewfinder, pass.


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## dr.rob (Aug 22, 2015)

Great news if this comes true in 2016. I would really like to see faster AF (i.e., DPAF like on their 70D/7DMII), as well as at least one or two native macro lenses. I use the original EOS M underwater, and love the small form factor and great IQ. The 11-22 lens is great for underwater wide-angle. For macro, I have been using the EF-S 60 mm macro with the adaptor, but the AF is very slow. A native macro lens would be a very welcome addition.


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## StudentOfLight (Aug 22, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> photogdan said:
> 
> 
> > My first post
> ...


So EF-M is not big enough for FF, but what about APS-H? (i.e. 1D-M)


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## privatebydesign (Aug 22, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > photogdan said:
> ...



No APS-H will not fit either, the EF-M mount was built around APS-C, nothing bigger will ever fit it, EF-M is forever locked into the circle that touches a 22.3 mm × 14.9 mm rectangle as max dimensions, or ⌀ 26.8mm.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 22, 2015)

dilbert said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see Canon introducing another lens mount for a FF mirrorless.
> ...



I seem to recall that was you misinterpreting a translated interview. I don't see Canon coming out with a dedicated new lens mount FF mirrorless in the mid to long term future, it makes no sense for them to and it contradicts everything (I believe) they believe is the point of mirrorless, smaller lighter and cheaper.

I believe they are thinking APS-C mirrorless will take over from a large part of the Rebel sector and FF SLR's will remain the domain of pros and keen amateurs where they can make good profits on higher end bodies along with the unignorable quality of their lens stable.

FF mirrorless will always be a tiny niche market, lets not forget actual high end DSLR's are a niche market too, so I believe for a company as conservative as Canon the thought of sidetracking the EF lens stable to make a FF mirrorless just isn't on the cards.


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## McRphoto (Aug 22, 2015)

LonelyBoy said:


> McRphoto said:
> 
> 
> > A mix of M3 and SL1?
> ...



The size
http://camerasize.com/compact/#448.424,599.386,448.377,599.348,448.389,599.427,ha,t


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> No APS-H will not fit either, the EF-M mount was built around APS-C, nothing bigger will ever fit it, EF-M is forever locked into the circle that touches a 22.3 mm × 14.9 mm rectangle as max dimensions, or ⌀ 26.8mm.



How is it that the Sony E-mount (FF-compatible) has a _smaller_ throat diameter than the EF-M mount?


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## AvTvM (Aug 22, 2015)

Canon like any other large imaging gear company will have to ditch mirrorslappers.
Just like with mirrorslappers there will be cheaper, somewhat lesss capable APS-C sensored MILCs (EOS-M with very wisely chosen EF-M mount) and there will be more capable Canon FF sensor MILCs with a new native, shorter flange-back lens mount. First EF-S lenses and then EF lenses will become obsolete, but unlike the last transition (FD -> EF), EF glass will remaim fully useable via simple adapter ... until all those new and better new-mount FF lenses are available. Then Canon will change firmware in bodies and lens mount protocol, so customers are forced to buy the new-mount FF lenses for mirrorless.

EOS M4 Pro needs to be vlearly bette, more capable and cheaper than a 7D II. "Rebel class" EOS-M will simply not cut it against next gen Sony, Fuji and Samsung APS-C Milcs appearing in 2016.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 22, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > No APS-H will not fit either, the EF-M mount was built around APS-C, nothing bigger will ever fit it, EF-M is forever locked into the circle that touches a 22.3 mm × 14.9 mm rectangle as max dimensions, or ⌀ 26.8mm.
> ...



Now that is a superb point, and maybe I am wrong. But I don't think so, only time will tell.......

http://camerasize.com/compare/#351,579


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## LonelyBoy (Aug 22, 2015)

McRphoto said:


> The size
> http://camerasize.com/compact/#448.424,599.386,448.377,599.348,448.389,599.427,ha,t



Forgive me for not finding being an inch shorter impressive for a combination that still won't be pocketable. I'd rather just take the SL1, with PDAF and native EF/EF-S compatibility. The M is a great little package with the 22/2. With the EF-M zooms, it leaves much to be desired.


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## TWI by Dustin Abbott (Aug 23, 2015)

I'm working on an M3 review right now (too many other irons in the fire!), but it is really a mixed bag. In many ways it is a very impressive camera, with the finest image quality I have EVER seen from a Canon crop sensor of any kind. The AF with native lenses is speedy enough for most all applications. It has at least SOME MF aids that I'm very thankful for, and the tilting screen is a nice step further (though I would love to see a full articulating screen). The EV-F works nicely when you need it. The handling is a big step forward.

But while Canon gave with one hand, they took away with the other. The firmware is not like any other Canon DSLR I've seen, with some weird omissions. For one thing, AEB defaults to a single shot, 1 frame per second shutter speed (unlike the M), which makes handheld exposure bracketing tough (and this is the way I mostly use AEB). Canon's response is that the camera has an HDR mode - true, except it automatically blends JPEGs with absolutely no manual controls available - not for serious photographers. The menu also has no AdobeRGB mode (I've never seen this before!).

Another weird omission is that the camera will not AF when zoomed in using 5x or 10x magnification (for more precise focus). Even if you are zoomed in it will go back out to native resolution before attempting to AF.

These are some weird omissions that are actually regressions from earlier M bodies. If they could fix these through firmware updates it would really enhance the usefulness of the body.

P.S. The improved AF speed with native lenses makes using lenses through the EF adapter more painful because the focus speed is so noticeably poorer.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2015)

TWI by Dustin Abbott said:


> .......The menu also has no AdobeRGB mode (I've never seen this before!).



Not questioning your reasoning but if you are shooting RAW (which you imply you mostly do and I am sure most people here do too) then the colourspace is just a tag anyway and changing it in post has no IQ impact, indeed if you are editing RAW files in LR you are viewing and working in a much bigger colourspace than AdobeRGB anyway.

I'm still plodding away with my M MkI and am quite happy for it for the uses I put it to. I'd be interested in a much more capable camera as a true DSLR backup too though. One thing I did find is the AF is set up badly out of the box, change some of the details and it gets much better, but taking the time to explore the myriad of options is time consuming and meticulous work, I applaud your efforts Dustin, your reviews have become an important and high quality aspect of this site. Thanks.


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## TWI by Dustin Abbott (Aug 23, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> TWI by Dustin Abbott said:
> 
> 
> > .......The menu also has no AdobeRGB mode (I've never seen this before!).
> ...



That's true, but when I use it as a compact event camera for the many events I shoot, I often shoot JPEGS because of the sheer volume of shots and the need to get them quickly to clients. Not including the AdobeRGB option is just, well, weird. I remember having the option in my T1i quite a few years ago.

Thanks for the nice feedback, though.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 23, 2015)

TWI by Dustin Abbott said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > TWI by Dustin Abbott said:
> ...



Again, not trying to be awkward, I suppose my point was given the near universal adoption of sRGB and the fact that most RAW editors use their own larger space, has AdobeRGB become obsolete?

I gave up trying to give customers AdobeRGB spaced files and instructions on how to use them and where they would and wouldn't work long ago. 90% of them end up going on the web direct anyway.


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## moreorless (Aug 23, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> The EF-M mount cannot support a FF sensor, it is too small, it will never happen. I don't see Canon introducing another lens mount for a FF mirrorless.
> 
> Therefore I suspect Canon see the APS-C sensor as the logical 'right size' sensor to put in a system that is supposed to have smaller size as a key element. Lenses for FF mirrorless are not significantly smaller, lighter or cheaper than EF lenses anyway, in some cases they are bigger, heavier and more expensive.



Yep I think APSC and smaller seems to be where the biggest benefits of a smaller flange distance are. For one thing APSC DSLR's are still using FF legacy flange distances, for another as you mention theres the potential for much smaller overall packages with smaller lenses that don't have to cope with the same light angle issues at FF.

People get so hung up on flange distance though that I think they fail to see that with FF perhaps not the biggest size saving issue. As mentioned most lens options for a FF mirrorless won't give you a shallow overall package as the lens sizes are larger and often a small flange distance is a trade off for a longer lens. I would say a bigger issue that allows something like the Sony A7's to be smaller than DSLR's is less the flange distance and more being able to remove the prism, AF sensor and mirror. The larger the sensor size afterall the larger these things become and where the Sony A7 really scores on small size is more height that anything else. These advantages could be put to use on an EF FF mirrorless without having to introduce a new lens mount.

In the very long term if we reached a situation were the market had gone mostly mirrorless Canon could just introduce EF lenses where the rear element recessed into the body to gain any size saving advantage that was to be had.

I'v always suspected that part of Canon's tactics with the EOS M's low pricing was looking to devalue the market that its competitors depended on much more heavily and I think you could do the same with a FF EF mount mirrorless and indeed an EOS M4 aimed a bit higher. The Sony A7's started off fairly cheap to build a userbase but that hasn't lasted and there now being priced above many FF DSLR's. Canon could introduce a FF EF mirrorless and price it a good deal lower plus have the benefit of a much larger lens line up with many more cheaper options and keep FF DSLR's as the premium product.


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## dufflover (Aug 23, 2015)

I wonder if people were inadvertently putting the JPEGs into Adobe RGB mode thinking they were better (after all cos I'm sure the internet said so ) and given the "type" of camera it's marketed as they thought they'd idiot proof it a little bit? (ok I'm stretching it, just thinking of a possibility as to why lol)


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## StudentOfLight (Aug 23, 2015)

Here is an EOS M with sensor sizes overlaid. (And with Sony FF) 

While it will be a tight squeeze given the position of the pins and the internal plastic throat I think APS-H can fit. Perhaps EF-M could accommodate APS-C and APS-H, and a newer mount will accommodate FF and Medium format.


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## TWI by Dustin Abbott (Aug 23, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> TWI by Dustin Abbott said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



You may be right, but my personal preference is always to edit with the larger color space (I use ProRGB in my workflow) and then output to sRGB when necessary. The difference on a calibrated monitor is noticeable, and in some applications I make my own large format prints for clients and stay away from sRGB altogether.

But yes, for 90% of the applications it makes no difference. Still, it seems like an odd thing to cut out when all Canon DSLRs for many years have included that option regardless of price. The odd thing is that in some ways (probably because of the sensor performance) the M3 feels more upscale than my 70D.


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## LDS (Aug 23, 2015)

4K monitors and TVs are quickly spreading devices capable of displaying color spaces larger than sRGB, and OS/browsers support for color spaces is far better than a few years ago. Sure, most displays are not calibrated, but IMHO in the next years sRGB risks to become far more obsolete than AdobeRGB.


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## DRR (Aug 23, 2015)

ashmadux said:


> DRR said:
> 
> 
> > I was a pre-firesale owner of the original M. It was a nice little camera and I liked it a lot, however two major deficiencies made me jump from the platform.
> ...



I'm glad it works for you - trying to shade the LCD with a hand to check it, is not a good enough work around for me, when a simple solution (adding an EVF) would have circumvented the problem altogether.



> Spray and play is one thing I could never do with this body though, as the AF is just too slow.



These are situations where zone focusing techniques come in handy. I have a good idea of what will be in focus at a certain aperture and subject distance, so I set ahead of time. Normally, on a DSLR, I would then use the OVF to compose the frames, but since the M lacked an OVF/EVF, and I found the screen to be unusable, I'd just point, and hope it was composed similarly to what I have in my head, and then, start the praying. Not an exacting technique but if I got one keeper out of a burst of 6-10, I was doing well.




> I played with the m3+11-22 in tokyo and i would LOVE to have the flexible screen (need it, actually), though it seemed like the interface speed took a hit from the m1/2. Af was FAST, no worries there. The body is mell done, great grip, and overall i would just love to have this machine. I asked a salesguy at BH if they heard anything about a return to the US market, and they said nay.



Even with the original M that I owned, image quality and lens quality (and value) were superb. From what I can tell (I've never handled an M3) the grip and feature set look great - I personally just would prefer a VF, and I do not think I'll jump back to the system without one.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2015)

DRR said:


> ...trying to shade the LCD with a hand to check it, is not a good enough work around for me, when a simple solution (adding an EVF) would have circumvented the problem altogether.



LOL. I think you have your 'simple' and complex solutions a bit mixed up...


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## deleteme (Aug 23, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> ChristopherMarkPerez said:
> 
> 
> > So... let's say Canon really does come out with a "serious" update to the EOS-M system. Why would I be compelled to return? Please tell me, Mr. Canon.
> ...



Yes, but by then Sony will have moved past the already excellent A6000. Canon will be competing in a field that sees rapid model upgrades and falling prices. The business does not seem appealing to me.


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## deleteme (Aug 23, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



I think Leica M mount is even smaller.


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## boogaloo (Aug 23, 2015)

photogdan said:


> My first post
> 
> I have a 6D and use an M3 as backup. The M3 has become the travel body of choice. I think it's a great alternative.
> 
> ...



Totally agree with this post. I've got a firesale M1 that I've adapted to use as a nightlapse camera that can shoot for 24 hours non stop. It's tiny, reasonably inexpensive but it's an amazing little camera for its size and cost.

I have an M3 for my 'pocket' camera and I've been utterly delighted with it. I've saved up for a while and have some lenses for my 6d that I really love - the 135L, sigma 35mm 1.4, 70-300L for example. The EF-M 22mm prime and the EF-M 11-22 cost buttons compared to them, but the IQ is just amazing. People comparing the M3 to the SL1 are utterly missing the fact that not only is the body much bigger, but the lenses are far bigger too. 

The EOS-M's problem is that, currently, for the enthusiast or serious photographer it will NEVER be a primary camera. My 6D will always be my go-to for my best shots all things being equal. But it is a a cracking secondary camera for someone invested in the Canon system. The Sony and some of the Fujis will be, but the EOS-M is a fraction of the price.

I actually think Canon are in a fairly good place. Inexpensive camera bodies, and a small number of really amazing lenses. An enthusiastic 'second camera' base from those invested in the Canon system. No, Canon have not yet 'really targeted' this mirrorless sector. They've certainly not missed the boat either, though.


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## Hillsilly (Aug 24, 2015)

I just wish this was Canon's strategy three year's ago. I enjoy a lot of the benefits of mirrorless cameras but have opted for a Fuji alternative. In theory, I can see the benefits of a Canon mirrorless camera being able to use EF lenses. But in reality, the more Fuji lenses I buy, the less likely I am to come back to Canon for a mirrorless option. (Plus, Canon's track record in recent years doesn't inspire me with confidence that they'll produce the lenses that I want to use, and while I can see the benefits of using EF lenses, well, you may as well just use an SLR).


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## zim (Aug 24, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



The main difference (apart from size of sensor) in that comparison to me is that the Canon sensor looks like it is behind of the lens electrical connectors where as the Sony connectors are behind the sensor, is that correct?
If so how does the Sony bayonet work?

Regards


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## josephandrews222 (Aug 24, 2015)

...own an M1 and an M2 but think I will pass on the M3 and check out the M4--and I will look for Dustin Abbott's M3 review.

I have been 'doing' Disney World and Florida's Atlantic Coast with my family for nearly three decades; the M2 as well as the M1 are my go to devices for family and vacation photography/videography--especially when paired with the 11-22 M lens.

Returned from FL three days ago and recorded video to the tune of 100GB.

No one except family members are interested in these videos...but especially years from now these will be priceless to us.

I know this because I have recently digitized Video 8 and Hi8 video tapes that were recorded nearly 30 years ago; Disney World has changed in that time, and so has my family.

I read the posters comments here on the M and Canon's mirrorless efforts with amusement--and no disrespect.

I brought my 5DMarkIII on this trip--it never left my bag. I could write dozens of paragraphs about the utility (and lack thereof) of the M. For me, size is of paramount import. The M3 looks a bit bigger...

I was very very pleasantly surprised to find out that my M2 + 11-22 lens, while bulky, does fit in the pocket of my Nike-brand cargo shorts with ease (I use what amounts to a Nintendo Wii wireless controller strap with a lug lifted from the OEM Canon M strap). So I was disappointed to see that Canon changed the way that the M3 strap connects to the camera (compared to the M2/M1). The older lug system is really really neat--swapping straps requires ten seconds at most.


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## Tugela (Aug 24, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> We’re told Canon is actively developing EOS M and EF-M products and 2016 will be the year they “get serious about the platform”. Multiple zoom and prime lenses are in the late state of development and announcements should begin in the first part of 2016.</p>
> <p>We’re also told that an EOS M4 will be a global product and a departure from what we’ve seen through the first 3 iterations. There was no information on sensor size, but I suspect APS-C will remain part of the system.</p>
> <p>It would be a great if Canon put real resources into developing the EOS M system.</p>



A few years ago they said they were "getting serious" about video, and look what happened there.

I strongly suggest no one holds their breath. This is marketing stop-loss drivel.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 24, 2015)

Tugela said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told Canon is actively developing EOS M and EF-M products and 2016 will be the year they “get serious about the platform”. Multiple zoom and prime lenses are in the late state of development and announcements should begin in the first part of 2016.</p>
> ...



So six camera bodies and twelve lenses all available in two mounts wasn't serious?

http://cinemaeos.usa.canon.com/


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## wsmith96 (Aug 24, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> TWI by Dustin Abbott said:
> 
> 
> > .......The menu also has no AdobeRGB mode (I've never seen this before!).
> ...



Maybe this goes back to the idea that Canon will focus their mirrorless line on the consumer market for now and are removing features that everyday users don't actually use (or even know about/understand). Sometimes fewer buttons and features make for better consumer products. Just a thought.


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## bf (Aug 25, 2015)

The reaction to this rumor tells something!


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## steyr (Aug 25, 2015)

EOS M is my camera of choice now. It's so easy to carry everywhere. Awesome image quality, but poor video quality. I bought a LX100 just for video. If the M4 can record 4K, I'll take that & sell the LX100.


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## Tugela (Aug 25, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



They were referring to consumer cameras, not dedicated video cameras for professionals.


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## Bernard (Aug 25, 2015)

Tugela said:


> They were referring to consumer cameras, not dedicated video cameras for professionals.



Were they? Then they should have said so. Mind you, given the thousands of short movies shot on Canon DSLRs, it's not like they suck at video. People would have noticed.

On the professional side of things, the Canon Cxxx cameras have a huge market share. You will find them in most rental houses, being sent-out on jobs every day.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 25, 2015)

Tugela said:


> A few years ago they said they were "getting serious" about video, and look what happened there.
> 
> I strongly suggest no one holds their breath. This is marketing stop-loss drivel.



Drivel...yes, there's some of that here.


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## Tugela (Aug 27, 2015)

Bernard said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > They were referring to consumer cameras, not dedicated video cameras for professionals.
> ...



Lol, no one uses a Canon DSLR as their first choice to shoot video now. Maybe years ago when the 5D2 and 5D3 first came out, but nowdays there are far superior options.

They were going to "get serious" about video in DSLRs when the 70D came out. How much progress has been made there? Um.....well.....none. All subsequent DSLRs have been a step back, and they were behind on the current state of the art at that point.


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## StudentOfLight (Aug 28, 2015)

Tugela said:


> Bernard said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...


I wouldn't say they've been a step back, but Canon has been side-stepping for a while now. :-[


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## Sportsgal501 (Aug 29, 2015)

Tugela said:


> Bernard said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



I was one of the official photographers for the NYC Triathlon and they were using a Sony for some portions of the video.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 31, 2015)

Tugela said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told Canon is actively developing EOS M and EF-M products and 2016 will be the year they “get serious about the platform”. Multiple zoom and prime lenses are in the late state of development and announcements should begin in the first part of 2016.</p>
> ...



got a quote on that? and i'm talking about an actual quotation from canon, not a rumor from here or CW,etc.


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