# Anything new on EOS-M3? How it may compare to A6000?



## Hjalmarg1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I haven't heard anything from the possible EOS-M3, Does anyone have information? How it will compare against the excellent Sony A6000?


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 1, 2014)

Hjalmarg1 said:


> I haven't heard anything from the possible EOS-M3, Does anyone have information? How it will compare against the excellent Sony A6000?



How will it compare to the Fuji X-T1, the Olympus E-M1 or the Panasonic GH4 ??? These aren't toys, they are serious cameras that are being used by pros, RIGHT NOW. All three brands have a good selection of lenses, not just zoomz.


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## lescrane (Sep 4, 2014)

I have the M and 18-55 EF M. Recently I considered buying a Tamron 18-200 for it. Then I said I'd wait until an "M3" came out..with a EVF, maybe a flash, maybe a flip screen, etc etc. Why buy lenses for a dead system?

Then I read about the Sony A-6000, the Fuji and others mentioned by a previous poster. Am going to a local camera show in Nov to compare, right now I'm really liking what I see about the Sony.. I have zero loyalty for Canon anymore, given total lack of innovation across the board. Am stuck with the SLR's because of investment in lenses(many of which are now 3rd party). Stuck may be too harsh...don't see much of a diff w/Nikon. But w/the mirrorless, clearly Canon has intentionally or unintentionally thrown in the towel.


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## Aglet (Sep 4, 2014)

I use Fuji XT1, and older XE1s.
Recently got Olympus OMD EM10.

They're similar, but different.
I really like the output from the fujis, just blows everything else away for IQ and convenience of great OOC jpgs.
OTOH, the Oly, which is initially a little harder to get used to because of the complexity of settings and options and fewer physical controls, I find more "fun" to use for less serious shooting.


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## notsosem (Sep 4, 2014)

Question from a newbie here.

Comparing the recent price drop on the M. Are the differences in quality really worth the additional expenses of shifting to a different system sony,fuji,olympus? Considering, that is, if one already has a number of ef lenses.


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## dtaylor (Sep 4, 2014)

notsosem said:


> Question from a newbie here.
> 
> Comparing the recent price drop on the M. Are the differences in quality really worth the additional expenses of shifting to a different system sony,fuji,olympus? Considering, that is, if one already has a number of ef lenses.



If your M+ef and efm lenses covers what you want in a mirrorless AND you're not itching for an EVF or tilt screen...then no. Well...maybe if you're looking at the Sony A7's for low light or more resolution. Otherwise, no.

For what it is the M is great. Its problem is that it's out there by itself rather then being the entry into a larger MILC ecosystem.


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## andrewflo (Sep 4, 2014)

I'd wish for nothing more than a jaw dropper in the form of an M3 but tbh I just don't see it.

The EF-M 18-55mm is listed as discontinued on B&H. The 11-22mm, 55-200mm, and M2 were never distributed in the US.

"Thrown in the towel" sounds like exactly the phrase I'd describe Canon's EOS M endeavors.

They're sooo far behind in laying down the groundwork to support a show-stopping mirrorless system. I love my EOS M to death. But never would've purchased it if it wasn't $250. IMO, the fact that the system flopped and is 25% of the original MSRP is the best thing it's got going for it.

But hey, having our fingers crossed never hurt anyone


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## moreorless (Sep 4, 2014)

I think viewing the M as "dead" is taking a very US centric view when in reality it was likely always planed as a system aimed mostly at the Japanese market were ultra compact mirrorless sales dwarf those in the US.

My guess is that we'll see an M similar to the one around now with the 70D sensor at some point next year, as to whether we see a larger body I think that's anyones guess.


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## lescrane (Sep 4, 2014)

notsosem said:


> Question from a newbie here.
> 
> Comparing the recent price drop on the M. Are the differences in quality really worth the additional expenses of shifting to a different system sony,fuji,olympus? Considering, that is, if one already has a number of ef lenses.



Hi,

I don't think it's a question of quality, eg I.Q...I'm quite happy w/the images I get from the M..they are pretty much the same as i get from my 70D. I don't think the competitors have anything revolutionary w/sensor performance, I am always going to stick w/nothing smaller than an aps-c 

The issue I have w/the M is w/useability...it will never be more than a walk-around or 2nd camera when I can't carry the DSLR... No EVF, kind of clunky controls when trying to do Exp comp, and I really like a built in flash for fill light,etc. Only a few fixed ISO settings, very very poor battery life(you must always carry a spare)

I don't regret the bargain I got w/the M, but am willing to spend more to get more. Another poster commented that it's not "dead" eg, it's quite alive in Japan, but that doesn't help me here in U.S.A.


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## Random Orbits (Sep 4, 2014)

lescrane said:


> I don't think it's a question of quality, eg I.Q...I'm quite happy w/the images I get from the M..they are pretty much the same as i get from my 70D. I don't think the competitors have anything revolutionary w/sensor performance, I am always going to stick w/nothing smaller than an aps-c
> 
> The issue I have w/the M is w/useability...it will never be more than a walk-around or 2nd camera when I can't carry the DSLR... No EVF, kind of clunky controls when trying to do Exp comp, and I really like a built in flash for fill light,etc. Only a few fixed ISO settings, very very poor battery life(you must always carry a spare)
> 
> I don't regret the bargain I got w/the M, but am willing to spend more to get more. Another poster commented that it's not "dead" eg, it's quite alive in Japan, but that doesn't help me here in U.S.A.



It hasn't bothered me that not all the lenses weren't offered in the US -- I bought them from Canada and elsewhere. It makes a big difference to me that it is doing well in Japan because that means that it is not a dead end system. If it was not doing well in the market it was designed for (Japan), then I'd have treated it as a P&S to be replaced every few years and would not have picked up additional lenses.


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## vdx (Sep 4, 2014)

I love(d) the M so much for the IQ and EF compatibility (I have purchased a kit with the adapter). I really like(d) the selection of AF point by touch and I enjoyed the EF-m 18-55 later on holiday, too. I was a huge fan of Canon. BUT: I was waiting more than a year for:
a) a faster zoom - say 18-55/2.8
b) a pancake zoom - say 18-55/3.5-5.6 pancake
c) some dedicated small and lightweight primes - like 35/2 and 50/2

...AND there's no news for such a long time. Not even a roadmap that would make one wait more patiently. So I ditched the M and went into m4/3 world with Olympus OM-D E-M10. Although a bit smaller sensor, I get a lightning fast touch AF, tilt screen, 1.440k viewfinder, a pancake zoom right out-of-the-box and I got the m.zuiko 45mm/1.8 for bokeh shots for €250 (about $330, that is). There is a nice range of lenses (17/1.8 and 25/1.8 are on my list), it's lightweight, beautiful and fun to shoot with. Sorry CANON.

For EOS M users, the EF 50/1.8 mark I is really nice to work with in MF mode...


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## Canonicon (Sep 4, 2014)

The chance that the M3 will be what people want is slim.
Canon will cripple it im pretty sure.

When you want a small system camera there are good choices right now.


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## rs (Sep 4, 2014)

Canonicon said:


> The chance that the M3 will be what people want is slim.
> Canon will cripple it im pretty sure.
> 
> When you want a small system camera there are good choices right now.


That DPAF sensor of the 70D is just begging to be used in a mirrorless camera, and the EVF-DC1 is waiting for a second camera to connect up to. The groundwork for the EOS M3 has already been laid. Will Canon put the pieces together? And if they do, will they sell it outside of the US?


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## dtaylor (Sep 4, 2014)

lescrane said:


> kind of clunky controls when trying to do Exp comp



I can't recommend full manual exp enough when using the M. Spin the dial until your screen looks right. One click lets you swap the dial between aperture and shutter (though I wish there were two dials). Your human eye can judge exposure better then any AE meter. When you realize how often AE is less then optimal on any camera, how awkward it is to mess with exp comp, and how quickly and easily you can ETTR in LiveView, you give up the AE modes and never look back.

Shooting with my DSLRs feels clunky in terms of exposure now.



> Only a few fixed ISO settings,



??? How so? 100-12800 is pretty wide.


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## dtaylor (Sep 4, 2014)

rs said:


> That DPAF sensor of the 70D is just begging to be used in a mirrorless camera, and the EVF-DC1 is waiting for a second camera to connect up to. The groundwork for the EOS M3 has already been laid. Will Canon put the pieces together? And if they do, will they sell it outside of the US?



My guess is they will once 70D sensor yields are sufficient. They can't abandon the mount. MILC sales are going up while DSLR sales are starting to go down. It might still be a couple years but Canon is going to have to address this and take the mirrorless market head on. If they don't cannibalize their own Rebel sales, a competitor will.


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## brad-man (Sep 4, 2014)

I hope Canon continues to develop the M system. I have the acclaimed 11-22 on the way from Japan. Although I got it as a "bulk package" item for a big discount, it is still by far the most expensive item of my "system" (1 M body + 22mm + UW + standard zoom). I wish we could get some reviews and testing of the Tamron 18-200 as well as the EF-M 55-200, though I think from now on I'm only really interested in faster primes with AF. Canon? Sigma? Anybody???


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## Dylan777 (Sep 4, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> Hjalmarg1 said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't heard anything from the possible EOS-M3, Does anyone have information? How it will compare against the excellent Sony A6000?
> ...



I wish Fuji makes FF mirrorless in the future. I really like the old body styles from Fuji. Sold my x100s, I do miss it sometimes.


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## ritholtz (Sep 5, 2014)

AF comparison of mirrorless cameras. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up8K_xd_iwU

They seems to be much better than rebels. I think it is better for me to shift to mirrorless (smaller footprint and look modern) from Rebel. Only thing is lens selection to match. There are very nice APS-C lens to fit in the budget of rebels without compromising much.


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## moreorless (Sep 5, 2014)

ritholtz said:


> AF comparison of mirrorless cameras.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up8K_xd_iwU
> 
> *They seems to be much better than rebels.* I think it is better for me to shift to mirrorless (smaller footprint and look modern) from Rebel. Only thing is lens selection to match. There are very nice APS-C lens to fit in the budget of rebels without compromising much.



I would be pretty confident that in terms of AF tracking there not even compared to a Rebel. That test really doesn't push performance much, good light, distant subjects shot at F/4.


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## notsosem (Sep 5, 2014)

ritholtz said:


> AF comparison of mirrorless cameras.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up8K_xd_iwU
> 
> They seems to be much better than rebels. I think it is better for me to shift to mirrorless (smaller footprint and look modern) from Rebel. Only thing is lens selection to match. There are very nice APS-C lens to fit in the budget of rebels without compromising much.



If you plan on transitioning from a rebel to the M I suggest that you try borrwing from a friend/renting one first. The IQ and video are quite similar but the feel and ergonomics of it might put you off. I too am contemplating the shift but i've spent enough time using a friend's M that i've gotten used to the change in weight and lack of dials etc. 

I love my old t31 with the grip but i also really just want a camera i can bring anywhere and everywhere without attracting too much attention. The M + the 22 just fits my current style and need I suppose. Just waiting it out a bit for the M3 so the M2 will drop.


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## Jamesy (Sep 6, 2014)

I bought an M kit with the 18-55 and 90EX back in June from Amazon for 350. I soon after bought a 22mm and the ef-ef-m adapter off of eBay for 170 u$d.

When I saw the Canon 55-250 ef-m announcement in the summer it gave me hope that the mount has some legs behind it and is not entirely abandoned by Canon. As a result of that I bout tHe excellent 11-22 in Canada where I live and it was on my camera 70% of the time this past week in NYC and the other 30% was the 18-55. Most of my shots were typical tourist type stuff but the 11-22 was rock solid. 



lescrane said:


> I have the M and 18-55 EF M. Recently I considered buying a Tamron 18-200 for it. Then I said I'd wait until an "M3" came out..with a EVF, maybe a flash, maybe a flip screen, etc etc. Why buy lenses for a dead system?



EVF, built in flash would be awesome, followed by a flip screen and tethering capabilities for studio shooting.


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## andrewflo (Sep 6, 2014)

Just because the EOS M system is distributed in Japan doesn't mean it's selling like hot cakes there. I don't have exact figures (which I would be curious to see) but of the professionals I know in Japan, none of are on board with the EOS M.

When I travel to Japan (fairly often), I never see the EOS M making a big appearance in camera stores. The Kiss (aka Rebel) series always have entire aisles dedicated to them. The pro series gear usually has 2nd largest appearance, and in fact, I barely recall seeing any EOS M appearance. I'm sure it was there, I just didn't notice it.


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## dtaylor (Sep 6, 2014)

andrewflo said:


> Just because the EOS M system is distributed in Japan doesn't mean it's selling like hot cakes there. I don't have exact figures (which I would be curious to see) but of the professionals I know in Japan, none of are on board with the EOS M.
> 
> When I travel to Japan (fairly often), I never see the EOS M making a big appearance in camera stores. The Kiss (aka Rebel) series always have entire aisles dedicated to them. The pro series gear usually has 2nd largest appearance, and in fact, I barely recall seeing any EOS M appearance. I'm sure it was there, I just didn't notice it.



http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-eos-m-second-sold-mirrorless-camera-japan-2013/


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## andrewflo (Sep 6, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> andrewflo said:
> 
> 
> > Just because the EOS M system is distributed in Japan doesn't mean it's selling like hot cakes there. I don't have exact figures (which I would be curious to see) but of the professionals I know in Japan, none of are on board with the EOS M.
> ...



 nice and touche! Any stats showing M sales vs DSLRs? Perhaps vs Kiss sales?


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## Jamesy (Sep 7, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-eos-m-second-sold-mirrorless-camera-japan-2013/




Thanks for the stats - I would be curious about more recent stats as these ones are roughly 18 months old - Fuji doesn't even show up on the chart but I am sure they are in the top 20 now.


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## moreorless (Sep 8, 2014)

andrewflo said:


> Just because the EOS M system is distributed in Japan doesn't mean it's selling like hot cakes there. I don't have exact figures (which I would be curious to see) but of the professionals I know in Japan, *none of are on board with the EOS M.
> *
> When I travel to Japan (fairly often), I never see the EOS M making a big appearance in camera stores. The Kiss (aka Rebel) series always have entire aisles dedicated to them. The pro series gear usually has 2nd largest appearance, and in fact, I barely recall seeing any EOS M appearance. I'm sure it was there, I just didn't notice it.



I don't think that's surprising as the camera nore the system as a whole seem to be aimed at professional use.

I think you can see from those sales figures that the Japanese mirrorless market is very different to that in the west. Beyond being vastly larger its also stratified more like DSLR markets with entry level cameras selling more, its only in the much smaller western market that higher end mirrorless makes up most sales.

That's the big mistake in a lot of market analysis I see, people take the Japanese figures for total sales but then consider that those sales are similar to that which we see in the west. The big difference I think that potentially makes is that very small viewfinderless mirrorless sales are arguably not cannibalising the DSLR market as much as higher end sales.

I think the picture you get is less that the Japanese are "ahead of the curve" in switching from DSLR's to mirrorless and more that a larger percentage of the Japanese population value quality enough to buy a camera with a larger sensor. A lot of Japanese EOS M users would I'd guess be the equivalent of people who might just use a basic compact or a phone in the west not those who would buy a DSLR.


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## axtstern (Sep 8, 2014)

True or fake... that is the question.....


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## 1Zach1 (Sep 8, 2014)

axtstern said:


> True or fake... that is the question.....


I will guess fake, but wish it were real.


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## AvTvM (Sep 8, 2014)

definitely fake. 

But it shows really well, how freakin' easy it would be to build a worthwhile EOS M3. 

@Canon: stick the darn 70D innards except mirror and OVF into an EOS-M2 body, add a great EVF on top, slap on a nice fully articulated LCD to the back and make the handgrip so much larger, that it will fit a regular LP-E6 battery for 500+ shots a charge. Sell @ 699 body only and 799 with kit lens and still make more profit per unit compared to any Rebel and 70D, since it is so much cheaper to build than even an SL-1 mirrorslapper. Significantly less labor cost, since many steps in assembly, calibration and QC are eliminated from the manufacturing process, once the fickle mechanical moving parts and separate phase AF and viewfinder prism are gone.


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## sdsr (Sep 8, 2014)

notsosem said:


> Question from a newbie here.
> 
> Comparing the recent price drop on the M. Are the differences in quality really worth the additional expenses of shifting to a different system sony,fuji,olympus? Considering, that is, if one already has a number of ef lenses.



It depends what you mean by "quality". The image quality created by an M is much the same as that created by Canon's other current APS-C cameras, which is to say barely distinguishable without close scrutiny from any other APS-C camera or, <ISO 1600, from current M43s. I prefer the images made by my a6000 to those created by Canon or Fuji APS-C or M43, but there's not much in it and, depending on what you shoot and how you look at the results, the differences may not be noticeable at all. 

Since you already have EF lenses, you presumably also have a Canon body of some sort, so the more important question may be whether the M has any advantages over what you currently own. If you have an older APS-C body, the images may be a bit better, and if you have AFMA issues you can avoid those on an M. But it will likely boil down to a matter of ergonomics, which is entirely subjective. I hated the process of using my M and sold it after a couple of months, but you may react otherwise, especially if you don't mind foregoing a viewfinder. Similarly, there are lots of good reasons for jumping to Sony etc. for smaller, mirrorless bodies, and doing so may not be that expensive (I added, rather than switching, but using Canon lenses requires MF, which you may not want to do), but those reasons may not apply to you either....


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## Jamesy (Sep 8, 2014)

axtstern said:


> True or fake... that is the question.....



Looks fake to me but would be an awesome update to the M/M2 we have today


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## moreorless (Sep 9, 2014)

I'd agree the body looks like a fake and I suspect if Canon did put out something with a viewfinder it would have at least one dedicated dial for aperture/ISO.

It seems strange given how small the lineup is but for me the main attraction of the M over the A6000 would be the lenses. The Sony system to me seems to be a mix of underperforming cheaper lenses designed to get you to buy overpriced higher performing ones, the Canon actually seems to offer good quality at decent prices.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 9, 2014)

axtstern said:


> True or fake... that is the question.....



Wow! +1, I hope it's true.


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## crashpc (Sep 9, 2014)

So fake. Don´t you see that? I´d buy this kind of M3 in heartbeat, but this is not it :-(


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## wickidwombat (Sep 12, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> definitely fake.
> 
> But it shows really well, how freakin' easy it would be to build a worthwhile EOS M3.
> 
> @Canon: stick the darn 70D innards except mirror and OVF into an EOS-M2 body, add a great EVF on top, slap on a nice fully articulated LCD to the back and make the handgrip so much larger, that it will fit a regular LP-E6 battery for 500+ shots a charge. Sell @ 699 body only and 799 with kit lens and still make more profit per unit compared to any Rebel and 70D, since it is so much cheaper to build than even an SL-1 mirrorslapper. Significantly less labor cost, since many steps in assembly, calibration and QC are eliminated from the manufacturing process, once the fickle mechanical moving parts and separate phase AF and viewfinder prism are gone.



oh soooo true have to agree with all of that


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## steliosk (Sep 14, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> definitely fake.
> 
> But it shows really well, how freakin' easy it would be to build a worthwhile EOS M3.
> 
> @Canon: stick the darn 70D innards except mirror and OVF into an EOS-M2 body, add a great EVF on top, slap on a nice fully articulated LCD to the back and make the handgrip so much larger, that it will fit a regular LP-E6 battery for 500+ shots a charge. Sell @ 699 body only and 799 with kit lens and still make more profit per unit compared to any Rebel and 70D, since it is so much cheaper to build than even an SL-1 mirrorslapper. Significantly less labor cost, since many steps in assembly, calibration and QC are eliminated from the manufacturing process, once the fickle mechanical moving parts and separate phase AF and viewfinder prism are gone.




+1 ;D


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