# to 600rt + st-e3 or not....



## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 3, 2014)

hmmmm. I think I have posted a similar topic in the past, but, now i am looking back and forth at 2 shopping carts and am hesitant to pull the trigger....

I love using off cam light. I currently have 2 430's and 1 600rt - and am using the cactus v5 triggers (which gotta say they work great for really cheap triggers. I would like to add at least one more flash to the mix. If i did add another flash, I am down 1 trigger.

note: I have been pushing myself to understand manual flash operation, to the point that now even if i am using flash on camera i am using manual mode.

so my options are - the cheapest path:

Option 1: buy another set of V5's and one of these - http://scottrobertla.com/2014/04/27/strobie-230/ (that would be about $250

Option 2: I have been considering switching to the phottix stratto II's - that plus one of the cheap flashes above would run me around $500

Option 3: But, b&h does have a pretty sweet deal right now on a set of 2 600's with the st-e3 transmitter for $1190...

So i have the ultra cheap just get the job done method, the close to cheap but not overboard method, then the ok that's double what i was gonna spend method.

I do kind of like the idea of the st-e3, even if i keep shooting in manual mode. thinking all those little adjustments that need to be made, being able to do that on the transmitter would be great. But is that convenience enough to call fort he switch? (ok, this isn't a total switch because the 430's could then be used with the v5's).

the last option is the most likely to induce GAS though (lol, if it's that good then i will probably be swapping out the 430's and adding more 600's....lol). hmmmmm

first option is the simplest though....and yeah it's kind of hard to say no to it...and I could add the forth option of going with another set of cactus v5's and make the 4th flash be a 600 (leaving me with 2 600's).. that would cost about as much as option 2....and give me a few more options (I do roll with 2 bodies, so 1 body could be totally off camera, then the other could be 600 on and 600 off, kind of the best of both worlds...)

So, I am just gonna post this, then see what imput I get and make a decision later on today...lol


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## Random Orbits (Jul 3, 2014)

The 600s + ST-E3 is a sweet setup. That would give you 3 600s with the one you already own, which will be good for many setups. Depending on how much time you can wait, you might want to check out the refurb store when the units are on sale and see how they compare to the price you're considering now.

It's nice being able to change the different power levels (or ratios) from the camera rather than fiddling with power settings on each flash (in a modifier) esp. when used outside and the light is changing due to clouds, etc.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 3, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> The 600s + ST-E3 is a sweet setup. That would give you 3 600s with the one you already own, which will be good for many setups. Depending on how much time you can wait, you might want to check out the refurb store when the units are on sale and see how they compare to the price you're considering now.
> 
> It's nice being able to change the different power levels (or ratios) from the camera rather than fiddling with power settings on each flash (in a modifier) esp. when used outside and the light is changing due to clouds, etc.



both are why i am seriously considering the 600 deal - then, down the line i can either sell off the 430's and keep an eye on the refurb/used market for slightly cheaper 600's. LOL....that's the hard part, I have been real good at keeping my GAS under control this season - in fact this has been the year of seeking out inexpensive add-ons which make a hugh impact (quad flash bar for lightstand - variable nd filter, vid light...) Going the 600 routs leads to me just wanting more 600's....lol...


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## YuengLinger (Jul 3, 2014)

If you are agonizing over the decision, you don't need the gear.

How much use have you gotten out of the setup you have now and like?

Hard, though, to go wrong for any other reason.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Chuck,

Looking at your gear signature I'd say bite the bullet and get the all RT setup. With the 5D MkIII you get full RT capability and as you already have one 600 and you are not using its true potential the B&H kit will really take it up a notch.

I pontificated for a while over the 550EX and Odin setup but went for four 600's and the ST-E3-RT, I am glad I did.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2014)

I have three 600's and an ST-E3. Powerful, flexible, reliable, easy to use. Highly recommended.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 3, 2014)

YuengLinger said:


> If you are agonizing over the decision, you don't need the gear.
> 
> How much use have you gotten out of the setup you have now and like?
> 
> Hard, though, to go wrong for any other reason.



naw...those that know me here know that I almost always do this before plonking down the $$$...lol...I am a capricorn, so I tend to over-analyze buying decisions!

I do use the current setup quite a bit though --- here's a recent wedding shot using the variable nd filter and three off cam flashes on the quard bar.  so in practice - I really can't at all knock the cactus system - starting my 3rd season with them now, bought 5, only one has died on me (and one other took a fall on the lightstand and ripped off the top hotshoe mount, still works to transmit though!)....


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 3, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Chuck,
> 
> Looking at your gear signature I'd say bite the bullet and get the all RT setup. With the 5D MkIII you get full RT capability and as you already have one 600 and you are not using its true potential the B&H kit will really take it up a notch.
> 
> I pontificated for a while over the 550EX and Odin setup but went for four 600's and the ST-E3-RT, I am glad I did.



gotta update the gear sig actually! lol. the more I ponder, the more i like the idea of being able to change the settings right on the transmitter. I know most who have the system love it. and it's not even the cost of the current package that is holding me up...it's that I know it means I'll want an extra st-e3 and and other 600 if i go that route...so spending $1200 now means spending another $800 later....lol


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## Runnerguy (Jul 3, 2014)

I would get that and even had it in my kart but will have to wait till funds allow ,I have 1 600rt and a 430ex so far.


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## notapro (Jul 3, 2014)

I'm with neuro, privatebydesign, and Random Orbits on this one. Get the 600/ST-E3-RT setup. Everything about the reliability and power of the system is true, and the convenience of making adjustments from the camera/transmitter is wonderful.


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## Dylan777 (Jul 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> I have three 600's and an ST-E3. Powerful, flexible, reliable, easy to use. Highly recommended.



+1

600ex-rt qty:5
ST-E3 qty: 1

AWESOME...can't go wrong. No studio lights needed.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 3, 2014)

> "AWESOME...can't go wrong. No studio lights needed."




Whilst I really like the flexibility of the RT system and it works very well for me 90% of the time there is no doubt it doesn't come close to even modest "studio" lights for power. Personally I think, as always, Neuro has a very good collection with a decent Canon RT setup and an Einstein or two.

Personally if Canon don't come out with a true 1Ds MkIII upgrade soonish my camera budget is going on the Prophoto B1 Airs, more than six times the power of a 600 for less money, you have to work hard to make a Prophoto seem good value!


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## dexstrose (Jul 3, 2014)

Something to also consider, an Einstein with cyber commander. You can use the Einstein to take pictures in full sun instead of using your quad holder that wouldn't have enough power. You can also use the Einstein for fill in a medium sized venue and your 600 on top of your camera. This is what I want next.

I have two 600s and ste3, I found that group mode is awesome and I don't have to keep manually changing my flashes on my umbrella or soft box. I can change within seconds on the ste3 which is a time saver. You can pick ettl, manual or both in group mode if you like. 

I don't use the RT setup everyday, but when I do, it never lets me down. No problems on flash exposure or wireless connection.


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## Dylan777 (Jul 3, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> > "AWESOME...can't go wrong. No studio lights needed."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed 
Without  With your advice prior my purchases of 600ext-rt, I feel 3units of 600ex are enough for my needs at home. I went with 5pcs due to Adorama special sales. Be able to mount the 600ex flashes on cameras at the event is quite special.


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## Halfrack (Jul 3, 2014)

Reconsider what you're trying to accomplish. Are you looking to add more light sources to a frame, or are you looking to add more power? If the latter, you may want to look at the Einstein in the post above, or the Profoto B1. Yes, they are more than what you're looking to spend right now, but both of them offer up a lot more power and light shaping options than ganging together more speedlites.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 3, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> > "AWESOME...can't go wrong. No studio lights needed."
> 
> 
> 
> ...





dexstrose said:


> Something to also consider, an Einstein with cyber commander. You can use the Einstein to take pictures in full sun instead of using your quad holder that wouldn't have enough power. You can also use the Einstein for fill in a medium sized venue and your 600 on top of your camera. This is what I want next.
> 
> I have two 600s and ste3, I found that group mode is awesome and I don't have to keep manually changing my flashes on my umbrella or soft box. I can change within seconds on the ste3 which is a time saver. You can pick ettl, manual or both in group mode if you like.
> 
> I don't use the RT setup everyday, but when I do, it never lets me down. No problems on flash exposure or wireless connection.



Oh I know that studio lights are way more bang for the buck. I had owned a set of Alien bee 800's. But, I don't have a studio and for indoor photography it's mostly at wedding receptions. I would lug the bees in with me and not use them. It finally got to the point where they either sat in the car or in my office not getting used and collecting dust. For what I am doing studio lights just made no sense.


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## jdramirez (Jul 3, 2014)

I had a 430ex ii... two 580ex ii's... and now 2 600ex-rt. I used two yongnuo 622c's... then 3... and now the 600's with an st-e3-rt... and I have to say that my favorite by far is the 600's with the st-e3. changing groups, finding the best channel... and setting ratios... It is a thing of beauty. If you do manual... and you like doing manual... then keep at it.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 3, 2014)

Halfrack said:


> Reconsider what you're trying to accomplish. Are you looking to add more light sources to a frame, or are you looking to add more power? If the latter, you may want to look at the Einstein in the post above, or the Profoto B1. Yes, they are more than what you're looking to spend right now, but both of them offer up a lot more power and light shaping options than ganging together more speedlites.



see last reply... For what I am doing, without assistants bigger units that need external power are just over the top for me. I have had good luck with just 3 units, so adding that forth will help even more. I'm just trying to feel out whether the investment in the 600's is worth it....so far i am very much leaning towards that option!


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## YuengLinger (Jul 4, 2014)

Chuck: Wonderful picture of the couple in the field. You'll make great use of the 600's, no doubt.


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## Jim Saunders (Jul 4, 2014)

I didn't get into top-flight flashes until the RT ones came out - a fluke of timing - but I wouldn't buy anything else personally. The system just plain works, and I've had the ST-E3-RT fire lights from 600' away with a clear line of sight and what I assume is a quiet RF environment. Not having to reach into modifiers to adjust them and having no extra cable connections is probably worth the price of admission.

Jim


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## ScottyP (Jul 4, 2014)

I went with the Phottix Mitros+ , which has the Odin built into it. It is probably as respected as it gets for non-OEM equipment. It really works well. It actually does 2 things which (as i read) the 600 cannot. It does 2nd curtain sync off-camera, and it adjusts the telephoto zoom remotely. 

I just bought 3 flashes. Here is a neat starter set with one flash and one original Odin transmitter.

https://www.google.com/shopping/product/6057726672876664758?sclient=tablet-gws&safe=off&client=safari&hl=en&q=mitros%2B+plus+odin+canon&oq=mitros%2B+plus+odin+canon&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&bvm=bv.70138588,d.b2U,pv.xjs.s.en_US.cqlOfy5Invw.O&biw=768&bih=928&tch=1&ech=1&psi=Lw22U_37FrC-8AGvw4HIDw.1404439856978.9&ei=gg22U-HgDqfC8QGj7IFQ&ved=0CIwBEKYrMAM


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## privatebydesign (Jul 4, 2014)

ScottyP said:


> I went with the Phottix Mitros+ , which has the Odin built into it. It is probably as respected as it gets for non-OEM equipment. It really works well. It actually does 2 things which (as i read) the 600 cannot. It does 2nd curtain sync off-camera, and it adjusts the telephoto zoom remotely.
> 
> I just bought 3 flashes. Here is a neat starter set with one flash and one original Odin transmitter.
> 
> https://www.google.com/shopping/product/6057726672876664758?sclient=tablet-gws&safe=off&client=safari&hl=en&q=mitros%2B+plus+odin+canon&oq=mitros%2B+plus+odin+canon&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&bvm=bv.70138588,d.b2U,pv.xjs.s.en_US.cqlOfy5Invw.O&biw=768&bih=928&tch=1&ech=1&psi=Lw22U_37FrC-8AGvw4HIDw.1404439856978.9&ei=gg22U-HgDqfC8QGj7IFQ&ved=0CIwBEKYrMAM



When I was looking to upgrade my flash system the Mitros+ wasn't out, just the Odin transmitter and receivers, the Mitros+ does tidy it all up and even pre the integration was the only other remote flash system I seriously considered.

As for different feature sets, most people will find the differences minor, but the 600EX-RT does zoom to 200mm (which is very useful) to the Mitros+'s 105mm, the 600 does five groups to the Mitros+'s three groups.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> As for different feature sets, most people will find the differences minor, but the 600EX-RT does zoom to 200mm (which is very useful) to the Mitros+'s 105mm, the 600 does five groups to the Mitros+'s three groups.



With more recent bodies, the Canon RT system also lets you control all flashes with the camera's main LCD menus.


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## jdramirez (Jul 4, 2014)

ScottyP said:


> I went with the Phottix Mitros+ , which has the Odin built into it. It is probably as respected as it gets for non-OEM equipment. It really works well. It actually does 2 things which (as i read) the 600 cannot. It does 2nd curtain sync off-camera, and it adjusts the telephoto zoom remotely.
> 
> I just bought 3 flashes. Here is a neat starter set with one flash and one original Odin transmitter.
> 
> https://www.google.com/shopping/product/6057726672876664758?sclient=tablet-gws&safe=off&client=safari&hl=en&q=mitros%2B+plus+odin+canon&oq=mitros%2B+plus+odin+canon&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&bvm=bv.70138588,d.b2U,pv.xjs.s.en_US.cqlOfy5Invw.O&biw=768&bih=928&tch=1&ech=1&psi=Lw22U_37FrC-8AGvw4HIDw.1404439856978.9&ei=gg22U-HgDqfC8QGj7IFQ&ved=0CIwBEKYrMAM



I miss the ability to do 2nd shutter... but I've maybe used 2nd shutter 5 times in the past year... and each time with the speedlite on the body (obviously).


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## wopbv4 (Jul 4, 2014)

notapro said:


> I'm with neuro, privatebydesign, and Random Orbits on this one. Get the 600/ST-E3-RT setup. Everything about the reliability and power of the system is true, and the convenience of making adjustments from the camera/transmitter is wonderful.



I used to have three 580s with st2 and finally I changed over to three 600s and the ste3.
It was as if stepped into a different world. No more line of sight requirement, able to trigger the 600s over very large distances, up to 100 m and last but not least the ease of control and setup using the camera menu is just fantastic.

Probably the best upgrade i have have done in last five years, worth every dollar

Hope this informs

Ben


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## winglet (Jul 4, 2014)

I do feel like we're ganging up on poor Chuck a bit here, obviously the opinion of people who already own/use a bagful of 600's + ST-E3-RT is going to be a bit biased! ;D But FWIW I must concur that I can't really speak highly enough of this combo for speedlite work.

Comparing studio strobes is a problematic comparison, although necessary when considering cost to power ratio. But for what the OP is shooting it would seem that the limitations inherent in big lights take them out of the running. (Now if those new Profoto lights didn't cost more than my first couple of cars, THAT would be something!!)

I went from 580EXII's + TTL Pocketwizards, to the 600RT system and it was the best money I ever spent. Funny how for so long everyone moaned about how far Canon was behind Nikon with small flashes but the engineering on the Canon RT system absolutely kills other solutions in the category now. (In my humble opinion! heheh). Of course things aren't perfect, a couple of features missing, no focus assist light on the ST-E3 and so on. Still miles better than anything else. 

This isn't to denigrate other solutions, I admit I've been impressed with some of the 3rd-party gear especially Phottix. But for the price of that B&H package you mentioned, perhaps modestly offset a bit by the sale of the gear it replaces, I think it would be an investment that would be recouped by your time/efficiency gains alone. That has been my experience with the system.


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## jdramirez (Jul 4, 2014)

The only issue... and this is minor at best... with the 600's and the st-e3 is knowing which flash is a and which is b... I know I can just look... but I get lazy and I say screw it... I just want a 2:1 ratio and I'm good enough. But I'd like to be able to say... set off A alone... and I probably can do it... but how doesn't come to mind.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> The only issue... and this is minor at best... with the 600's and the st-e3 is knowing which flash is a and which is b... I know I can just look... but I get lazy and I say screw it... I just want a 2:1 ratio and I'm good enough. But I'd like to be able to say... set off A alone... and I probably can do it... but how doesn't come to mind.



Put labels on the flashes, and/or have a system. A is key, B is fill, C is hair/rim, D is background, etc. You can disable groups from the master (I use the camera menus) – that's great for setting up, so you can optimize the power for each flash (e.g., the amount of fill) in isolation for each light, all without stepping away from the camera.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 4, 2014)

winglet said:


> I do feel like we're ganging up on poor Chuck a bit here, obviously the opinion of people who already own/use a bagful of 600's + ST-E3-RT is going to be a bit biased! ;D But FWIW I must concur that I can't really speak highly enough of this combo for speedlite work.
> 
> Comparing studio strobes is a problematic comparison, although necessary when considering cost to power ratio. But for what the OP is shooting it would seem that the limitations inherent in big lights take them out of the running. (Now if those new Profoto lights didn't cost more than my first couple of cars, THAT would be something!!)
> 
> ...



I'm a big boy, no worries about the ganging up, and without context of what I'm doing/directions I have already gone down and abandoned (studio lights). 

I kind of thought I'd hear lots of praise for the 600's, no surprise, but thought i'd hear more giving the nod to the cheaper method. I think I am now sold!


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 4, 2014)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> I kind of thought I'd hear lots of praise for the 600's, no surprise, but thought i'd hear more giving the nod to the cheaper method. I think I am now sold!



Usually, when you go for a cheaper solution you're giving something up. In the case of hotshoe flashes and triggers, what you're usually giving up is reliability. If you'll be using them occasionally, in non-critical situations, that may be a worthwhile trade-off. For you, it's probably not.


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## jdramirez (Jul 4, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > The only issue... and this is minor at best... with the 600's and the st-e3 is knowing which flash is a and which is b... I know I can just look... but I get lazy and I say screw it... I just want a 2:1 ratio and I'm good enough. But I'd like to be able to say... set off A alone... and I probably can do it... but how doesn't come to mind.
> ...



I usually put my a's to my left and in the alphabetical order going from left to right... but I was lazy yesterday and didn't feel like getting up from my kneeling position.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 5, 2014)

ok, path selected... Going with the 600's and the st-e3...fun fun fun!


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## Viggo (Jul 5, 2014)

Got my second 600 the other day, and I often choose ettl for the kids, because I get
Absolutely no second chances, or even a first chance most of the time. And they work really good in ettl. And HSS is always a problem solver at 1.4.

Couldn't be happier.


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## wopbv4 (Jul 6, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...



Press "test" button" on ste-e3 and the 600s will fire in sequence according to the groups they are assigned to.

Easy way to find out which group is which


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## privatebydesign (Jul 6, 2014)

wopbv4 said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Only in Group Mode, and they fire pretty close together, but it is a nice feature.


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## Jim Saunders (Jul 6, 2014)

wopbv4 said:


> Press "test" button" on ste-e3 and the 600s will fire in sequence according to the groups they are assigned to.
> 
> Easy way to find out which group is which



Fact, and I learned this; I learned also that your transmitter must be in group mode with each group in ETTL to fire groups D and E.

Jim


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## wopbv4 (Jul 6, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> wopbv4 said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...



Indeed, sorry forgot to mention that


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## Viggo (Jul 6, 2014)

Turn a group off and you'll also find out, or use letter stickers.


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## eyeland (Jul 6, 2014)

Would you guys advice against getting the yongnuo st e3 to save a few bucks? Also, is there a reason why you cant get an st e3 receiver/transceiver?


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## jdramirez (Jul 6, 2014)

eyeland said:


> Would you guys advice against getting the yongnuo st e3 to save a few bucks? Also, is there a reason why you cant get an st e3 receiver/transceiver?



There's a thread discussing the st-e3. With flash... you want it to work everytime... otherwise you will miss a shot that maybe that means you lose money... or maybe you just simply lose the shot and you are cursing under your breath a little. 

Either way, the canon st-e3-rt works... beautifully... every time. The yongnuo... according to others... doesn't.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 6, 2014)

eyeland said:


> Would you guys advice against getting the yongnuo st e3 to save a few bucks? Also, is there a reason why you cant get an st e3 receiver/transceiver?



For me, a key benefit of the Canon -RT system is reliability. Personally, I wouldn't compromise that with a YN transmitter. 

There's no receiver because it's really not in Canon's best interest to make something that allows cheap, 3rd party flashes to be added (but I wish they would, to add in monolights).


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## privatebydesign (Jul 6, 2014)

eyeland said:


> Would you guys advice against getting the yongnuo st e3 to save a few bucks? Also, is there a reason why you cant get an st e3 receiver/transceiver?



I have both, the saving on money is small compared to your camera and flashes (and lenses) the ONLY reason to consider the YN-E3-RT is if you have pre 2012 bodies, otherwise forget it completely. If you do have pre 2012 bodies get both for when you really want to play with Group mode.

In my experience the YN-E3-RT is not a substitute for the ST-E3-RT, just a compliment for pre 2012 bodies.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 18, 2014)

TY to those who nudged me towards the 600/st-e3 system. So far I'm really liking it. The controls on the ste-3 arre a little hard to get used to but I'm getting the hang of it. the biggest bonus so far is the ability to do high speed sync off camera - that's been one of my biggest issues lately - yeah I know you can stop down to keep things within the 1/200th limit, but, I'd rather have more control over my depth of field - and I do like shooting wide open (or close to it) - so having the ability to high speed sync off camera is quite awesome! 

I forget who mentioned it, but, yeah, I do feel like I need to label my flashes now because it is easy to set them up then wonder which one is A and which one is B and which one is C....lol


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## Viggo (Aug 18, 2014)

I sold both my 600's and the st-e3. I bought the Godox AD360 instead, and a new amp for my car, lol.

But my 1dx is in for repair since forever and I will probably not see it before the snow gets here by the looks of it, so haven't tried it yet. It's kind of hard to sit and watch my spanking new ProFoto 90cm (3') Octa and the new flash and have nothing to shoot with...


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## dlleno (Sep 11, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> eyeland said:
> 
> 
> > Would you guys advice against getting the yongnuo st e3 to save a few bucks? Also, is there a reason why you cant get an st e3 receiver/transceiver?
> ...



If my livelihood depended on it I would go Canon all the way. For me at this stage in my photography (I do automotive product photography as a secondary business) I find the YN stuff to be quite good. the three YN flashes and four 622 triggers haven't missed a beat. solid performers on my 5D3. no experience with their YN-E3-RT though -- I'd be careful there as I'm hearing it may have pushed to market too soon. gotta be careful with the reverse engineered stuff.


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