# FoCal AFMA for Nikon Z6 / Z7 Mirrorless coming



## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 20, 2019)

In a email this morning, I saw a announcement for FoCal that supported the new Nikon Mirrorless cameras Z6 and Z7. Then I noticed a reference to this article which explored inaccuracy in the Nikon autofocus with their mirrorless cameras, and it tells us why they put AFMA in them, because AF can be off enough to show up.

I have not yet seen any similar analysis of the Canon AF for the R, but have observed that I definitely can visually see a improvement with very careful manual focusing done at 10X on my 24 inch monitor.

Since The Canon cameras do not offer AFMA, I wonder if anyone has seen a careful analysis of AF accuracy with the R? I'm not sure if It could be done with FoCal in the manual mode or not.


----------



## Ozarker (Mar 20, 2019)

Shocking. Mirrorless doesn't need AFMA. Ever. (sarcasm)


----------



## neuroanatomist (Mar 20, 2019)

Saw that update this morning. Some Olympus MILCs offer AFMA as well.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 20, 2019)

I wonder if it's a per-lens thing with mirrorless, or just a general, global adjustment needed.


----------



## Ozarker (Mar 20, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> I wonder if it's a per-lens thing with mirrorless, or just a general, global adjustment needed.


Probably has to do with flange distance tolerances from copy to copy. Just my guess. Worse than a guess. I think I just made it up.


----------



## bhf3737 (Mar 20, 2019)

May be Z6/Z7 need AFMA because of IBIS?? 
Wear and tear may make the sensor settle down a few microns away from where it is supposed to be. 
Just a guess.


----------



## AlanF (Mar 20, 2019)

My reading is that contrast detection is flawless but slow. Phase detection can be affected by the lens being decentered and tilted elements. It is more likely, I guess that a tilt of the flange relative to the sensor would be problematic rather than distance alone.


----------



## JuanMa (Mar 21, 2019)

Wondering if this could be a sort of trick from Reikan as to sell their product in the future. Sure, that mirrorless cameras are a serious threat for them.


----------



## AlanF (Mar 21, 2019)

JuanMa said:


> Wondering if this could be a sort of trick from Reikan as to sell their product in the future. Sure, that mirrorless cameras are a serious threat for them.


Reikan Focal can be used only if the camera has an AFMA menu on it to adjust MFA. So it cannot be a trick from Reikan unless this tiny company has bribed Nikon to add an unnecessary feature.


----------



## Viggo (Mar 21, 2019)

I find it weird. One of the big reasons I bought the R is not needing AFMA, and it is pretty obvious at f1.2 just how incredibly accurate it is. 

I’ve shot birds and cats and it somehow hits the eyes no matter what at f1.2. 

“But, but spec lists ! Animal eye af, useless canon!!”


----------



## JuanMa (Mar 21, 2019)

Viggo said:


> I find it weird. One of the big reasons I bought the R is not needing AFMA, and it is pretty obvious at f1.2 just how incredibly accurate it is.
> 
> I’ve shot birds and cats and it somehow hits the eyes no matter what at f1.2.
> 
> “But, but spec lists ! Animal eye af, useless canon!!”



I’m really looking into buying an EOS R, I have the Mark IV and 7DM2. A bit disappointed by the 7DM2 but in love with the Mark IV. One of the main reason of my interest on the R is that it doesn’t need AFMA and it would be a big disappointment to know that you will still have to use software or any other methods to get it working correctly with the lenses.


----------



## Viggo (Mar 21, 2019)

JuanMa said:


> I’m really looking into buying an EOS R, I have the Mark IV and 7DM2. A bit disappointed by the 7DM2 but in love with the Mark IV. One of the main reason of my interest on the R is that it doesn’t need AFMA and it would be a big disappointment to know that you will still have to use software or any other methods to get it working correctly with the lenses.


You don’t need that with the R.


----------



## AlanF (Mar 21, 2019)

You need AFMA on a DSLR for several reasons. The main one is the calibration of the distance of the focal plane from the sensor plane as measured by the phase detect AF system on its separate sensor, and then there are others due to lens imperfections that affect the calculations. The R doesn't need the major correction but do we know that the DPAF is not affected to a minor extent by flaws in lens construction?


----------



## Neutral (Mar 21, 2019)

Couple of years ago i asked them to provide support for mirrorless cameras to be able to test lens performace on MILC.
All lens have variations in performance and i consdered FoCal as good tool to measure lens performace at home to see if my lens copy is good and also do periodic lens checks. They had this possibility in pro version for DSLRs.
They replied that this is good idea and they might consider to include this in their development plan.
May be they just implemented what i asked them then ?


----------



## AlanF (Mar 21, 2019)

Neutral said:


> Couple of years ago i asked them to provide support for mirrorless cameras to be able to test lens performace on MILC.
> All lens have variations in performance and i consdered FoCal as good tool to measure lens performace at home to see if my lens copy is good and also do periodic lens checks. They had this possibility in pro version for DSLRs.
> They replied that this is good idea and they might consider to include this in their development plan.
> May be they just implemented what i asked them then ?


You can fool Reikan into dong this for mirrorless. Take a series of shots with a DSLR, and store them for using with FoCal in manual mode. Then take shots of the target with your mirrorless. Paste them over the shots from the DSLR and analyse them as focus consistency. You need at least 5 different shots. FoCal will calculate the QoF of the mirrorless using the exif data from the DSLR.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 21, 2019)

AlanF said:


> You can fool Reikan into dong this for mirrorless. Take a series of shots with a DSLR, and store them for using with FoCal in manual mode. Then take shots of the target with your mirrorless. Paste them over the shots from the DSLR and analyse them as focus consistency. You need at least 5 different shots. FoCal will calculate the QoF of the mirrorless using the exif data from the DSLR.


By pasting them over the DSLR shots, how do you do that? Is it done in editing software or photoshop?

It is my understanding that my FoCal Pro would let me manually analyze sharpness of images but I could never figure out how. I was trying to use my SL2 and adjust my Sigma 18-35 for sharpest focus by changing settings with the dock, so I could produce a series of images with different settings, but FoCal would not analyze them due to the exif.

Your method sounds workable, I just am not understanding what paste means.


----------



## privatebydesign (Mar 21, 2019)

It sounds like a feedback error to me, that is the body tells the lens to move x amount yet it should move x +/- amount. Don't forget the Nikon and Canon FF MILC's have hybrid contrast and phase detect AF systems built on the image sensor, surely that implies that sometimes the lens instructions could be unidirectional. I know Canon touted a whole new league of lens/body bidirectional communication with the R mount, maybe Nikon cut a few corners with theirs. Unidirectional does have the advantage of speed of acquisition, which is only useful if it's accurate!


----------



## AlanF (Mar 21, 2019)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> By pasting them over the DSLR shots, how do you do that? Is it done in editing software or photoshop?
> 
> It is my understanding that my FoCal Pro would let me manually analyze sharpness of images but I could never figure out how. I was trying to use my SL2 and adjust my Sigma 18-35 for sharpest focus by changing settings with the dock, so I could produce a series of images with different settings, but FoCal would not analyze them due to the exif.
> 
> Your method sounds workable, I just am not understanding what paste means.


From what I remember, but you will have to experiment, open the mirrorless image of the target in PS, select all, copy, open DSLR image, paste the mirrorless over it, save. Crop if it helps. Open 5 of the pasted-in images in Focal, focus consistency pane.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 21, 2019)

AlanF said:


> From what I remember, but you will have to experiment, open the mirrorless image of the target in PS, select all, copy, open DSLR image, paste the mirrorless over it, save. Crop if it helps. Open 5 of the pasted-in images in Focal, focus consistency pane.


I'm really busy now, but I will try to find time to compare my 5D IV with my R for focus consistency.


----------



## Macoose (Mar 21, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Reikan Focal can be used only if the camera has an AFMA menu on it to adjust MFA. So it cannot be a trick from Reikan unless this tiny company has bribed Nikon to add an unnecessary feature.




I DL'd the Z7 manual from Nikon's website and AF Fine tuning is on page 297. The values for 30 lenses can be stored in camera.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 22, 2019)

Macoose said:


> I DL'd the Z7 manual from Nikon's website and AF Fine tuning is on page 297. The values for 30 lenses can be stored in camera.


Yes, The Nikon Mirrorless Z6 and Z7 have AFMA, so there is a reason, it may be there for adapted lenses, or it may be there because its needed due to focusing errors per lens. Very little is known in actuality about the inner workings of the AF systems in Mirrorless cameras, there are different implementations and designs, all we know is the hype and general PR information. 

I'm sure that manufacturers are not going to make the total story public, but we can test our cameras and determine how accurate and how much variability to expect in the autofocus.


----------



## SecureGSM (Mar 22, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Reikan Focal can be used only if the camera has an AFMA menu on it to adjust MFA. So it cannot be a trick from Reikan unless this tiny company has bribed Nikon to add an unnecessary feature.



You can actually. What you can do is to feed shots taken by an unsupported camera into Focal for analysis. One condition though: you would have to modify the EXIF of the shots to replace unsupported camera name with something that is supported.

P.S. or even use Focal for AFMA-ing an unsupported camera but only in conjunction with lenses that can be programmed by end user e.g. Sigma Art, sports, contemporary or modern Tamron glass

Or even for things like astigmatism Level assessment


----------



## AlanF (Mar 22, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> You can actually. What you can do is to feed shots taken by an unsupported camera into Focal for analysis. One condition though: you would have to modify the EXIF of the shots to replace unsupported camera name with something that is supported.
> 
> P.S. or even use Focal for AFMA-ing an unsupported camera but only in conjunction with lenses that can be programmed by end user e.g. Sigma Art, sports, contemporary or modern Tamron glass
> 
> Or even for things like astigmatism Level assessment


You can't adjust the AFMA of a camera that doesn't have an AFMA control on it, which was my answer was about. I had in fact yesterday already explained how to use FoCal on unsupported cameras!



AlanF said:


> You can fool Reikan into doing this for mirrorless. Take a series of shots with a DSLR, and store them for using with FoCal in manual mode. Then take shots of the target with your mirrorless. Paste them over the shots from the DSLR and analyse them as focus consistency. You need at least 5 different shots. FoCal will calculate the QoF of the mirrorless using the exif data from the DSLR.


----------



## SecureGSM (Mar 22, 2019)

..or you can simply edit your unsupported mirrorless camera shots in an EXIF editor and replace unsupported camera name with say Canon 5D IV, load in Focal...


----------



## AlanF (Mar 22, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> ..or you can simply edit your unsupported mirrorless camera shots in an EXIF editor and replace unsupported camera name with say Canon 5D IV, load in Focal...


FoCal licences limit use to individual serial numbers. This certainly applies when using the program directly with the camera is tethered. Do you have to fake the serial number of the body as well as the model name when analysing downloaded images?


----------



## SecureGSM (Mar 23, 2019)

AlanF said:


> FoCal licences limit use to individual serial numbers. This certainly applies when using the program directly with the camera is tethered. Do you have to fake the serial number of the body as well as the model name when analysing downloaded images?


I do not think so. Definetely not in my case, Commercial licence: unlimited bodies, locked to a single workstation:






Reikan FoCal - Content Moved


Moved




www.reikanfocal.com





Give it a go and see what transpires.


----------



## AlanF (Mar 23, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> I do not think so. Definetely not in my case, Commercial licence: unlimited bodies, locked to a single workstation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are a rare beast, a real pro paying £250 for a commercial licence for unrestricted use, whereas most of us amateurs pay £39.95 or for the pro £69.95 for restricted versions!


----------



## SecureGSM (Mar 23, 2019)

AlanF said:


> You are a rare beast, a pro paying £250 for a commercial licence, whereas most of us mere amateurs pay £39.95 or for the pro £69.95!


Do not be like that. I offer AFMA services for Sigma, Tamron and Canon lenses in Melbourne, Australia. Canon platform exclusively.
It is not always black or white.


----------



## AlanF (Mar 23, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Do not be like that. I offer AFMA services for Sigma, Tamron and Canon lenses in Melbourne, Australia. Canon platform exclusively.
> It is not always black or white.


Don’t get me wrong, it’s good to hear from real pros.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 23, 2019)

Rich from Reikan once told me how to do the AFMA test with my SL-2 using the Sigma lens and the dock, it was going to be time consuming and a PITA changing the lens adjustments with the dock 40 or more times, so I mounted the lens on my5D MK IV and did a AFMA to get a approximate starting value. It helped, but I just started using live view and DPAF which worked well with that lens. Then, after getting a R to replace the SL-2, I sold the lens. If I decide at some point to go all mirrorless, I might consider a Sgma lens, but right now, I am pretty well covered.


----------



## ozturert (Mar 24, 2019)

Can AFMA in Nikon Z6/7 for adapted DSLR lenses? I have had mirrorless systems since NEX3/EPL1 and never ever needed AF correction. I think some Sony cameras also have AF correction menus but that's only required if you use LE-XXX adapter.


----------

