# Hey Canon, I've got cash to burn, but...



## caruser (Jan 11, 2013)

...and I'm writing this to counter all the recent Canon bashing and flaming here, I can't find anything worth buying!

My 5D2 needs an upgrade, but the 5D3 doesn't have interchangeable focus-screens which I need for wide-aperture (manual) lenses (and the lack of improvement in the shadow noise is a bit of a let-down). The 1DX would be possible, too, but for that amount of cash I'd like 24 or 28 megapixels (with proportionally slower frame rate), everything else is great.

Since moving to full-frame the 70-200 is a bit short, but I don't want to substitute it with a less-sharp-and-inferior-IS 100-400, give me a new version already, or an updated 300 f/4, I'll take whatever comes first! And what about wide-angle, where is the 14-24 competitor, or even a 17-40 or 16-35 that's half as sharp? Where is the quality 20 IS USM to go with the 24 and 28?

And don't get me started on all the missing or crippled firmware features, some decent updates there might have pushed me to a 5D3 or 1DX, but there's no real auto-iso in m with exposure compensation, no proper way to set the min and max shutter speed or aperture in the semi-auto modes, no histogram when zoomed in like the smallest nikons do, ... ... ...

Rant finished, obviously I don't make my living from photography, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't spend some more on it, because I do shoot a lot and some things are often difficult with my current gear!


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## sandymandy (Jan 11, 2013)

So just get 6D. Better shadow noise performance and you can change the focussing screen. What about putting 1.4xtender on your 70-200? or 135L with extender.


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## caruser (Jan 11, 2013)

sandymandy said:


> So just get 6D. Better shadow noise performance and you can change the focussing screen. What about putting 1.4xtender on your 70-200? or 135L with extender.



Hm, you are right, the 6D has interchangeable focus screens, that's unexpected, I had read somewhere that it doesn't... However I would appreciate the 5D3/1DX AF system, too.

But the extenders are a good idea, might help bridge the time to a 100-400 update, thanks.


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## tnargs (Jan 15, 2013)

caruser said:


> Hm, you are right, the 6D has interchangeable focus screens, that's unexpected, I had read somewhere that it doesn't... However I would appreciate the 5D3/1DX AF system, too.



Uninformed rant, then?

Also note the 5D3 screen is a major upgrade, so 99% of buyers will reap the benefits while the 1% who want to use short manual lenses with large glass (invariably not made by Canon, hello Zeiss) can get a 6D 'cos they won't need the rapid-fire super AF systems of the 5D3. Or keep it simple and upgrade to EOS! (Zeiss is sooo 60's tech). ;D


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## caruser (Jan 15, 2013)

tnargs said:


> caruser said:
> 
> 
> > Hm, you are right, the 6D has interchangeable focus screens, that's unexpected, I had read somewhere that it doesn't... However I would appreciate the 5D3/1DX AF system, too.
> ...



I have various use cases for the camera, some of them need a better AF than what I've got now on the 5D2, both in terms of tracking speed and spread of "good" AF points, and some which require a "good" MF focus screen for lenses like the 35L shot with a candle or two providing the light.


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## Hobby Shooter (Jan 15, 2013)

You obviously haven't tried the 5D3, learn to shoot and the shadow 'noise' won't be a problem.


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## caruser (Jan 15, 2013)

Hobby Shooter said:


> You obviously haven't tried the 5D3, learn to shoot and the shadow 'noise' won't be a problem.



My comment wasn't about shadow noise, and I have briefly tried a 5D3. Even if I ignore the lack of low-iso improvement over the 5D2 and the fact that it has a bloody strong AA filter to cater to the video people while I would prefer none at all, what disturbs me about the 5D3 is that I can't change the focus screen, and that in many situations that I shoot in the additional "good" focus points are pretty useless since I can't link spot-metering to the AF point like the 1DX and previous 1D models can. But please go on, if you manage to convince me that the 5D3 is good enough I won't have to save for a 1DX!


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## VirtualRain (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm with the OP... Canon does seem to be making too many compromises lately and not delivering products people really want.

I can't recall a single product announcement in the last year that wasn't met with some level of disappointment in capability and dropped jaws on price.

Consider:
- A 5D3 with no improvement in sensor tech but launches at almost double the price of the 5D2 
- A 6D which is basically a 5D2 in new clothes at a 50% premium over a 5D2
- A 24-70 f4 IS that offers less focal range at double the price of the old 24-105
- A 24-70 f2.8 still without IS at double the price of the old 24-70 (Tamron is now out-innovating them on IS?)
- Yet to rub it all in, we get new wide primes with IS that no body wants

Has there ever been a time in history when Canon has disappointed this much?


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## caruser (Jan 15, 2013)

VirtualRain said:


> I'm with the OP... Canon does seem to be making too many compromises lately and not delivering products people really want.
> 
> I can't recall a single product announcement in the last year that wasn't met with some level of disappointment in capability and dropped jaws on price.



To be fair, the 1DX does seem to be a very good camera, the main criticism being that it doesn't quite improve on the 1Ds3 for areas like studio and landscape. I think I'd be perfectly happy with a 32MP version of the 1DX (and proportionally slower frame rate).


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## John MARK (Jan 15, 2013)

caruser said:


> tnargs said:
> 
> 
> > caruser said:
> ...



Hi caruser !

Just like you, not a pro, some money to burn but no pressure to do so tomorrow morning 

And facing the ever lasting quest for the "universal tool" : we all know that a swiss knife is a refined
sample of compromise.

So for me, the equation might be solved by a 6D (landscape, low light, portrait etc.) + 7D II (fast action, reach etc.) combo in the mid term.

OK, maybe a 1DX might look like an all-in-one equivalent, "just a bit" more expensive than that combo _(pure speculation right now, concerning 7D II schedule & pricing)_ but I've long been taught not to put all my eggs in the same bag !

Meanwhile, still happy with my 60D AND its flip-screen, for which a 6D + wi-fi tethered tablet looks like an attractive larger screen FF upgrade : many times, I use MF in zoomed Live View mode, with the camera in unusual positions, low light and low ISO's… to each one it's own needs !

Anyway, still letting the early 6D adopters clear the bug field for me… 

Cheers


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## K3nt (Jan 15, 2013)

While I can see some of the points the original poster made I don't share the immense disappointment. Someone said it's a swiss army knife, not far off. Everything is a compromise.
We all have different needs and Canon has to navigate that, not an easy task, and sometimes they do get it wrong. It's a little trying to squeeze a giant cruise liner into a canal with 2 inches to spare either side.
To emphasize my point, I'd love to have ALL video-stuff removed from my 7D, I never use it and I believe for video there are better tools than a DSLR, some other folks on the other hand never shoot anything but video and would probably gladly trade in the still functions for better video performance.
My advice would be, if you're not happy with what's currently out there, wait a while, something better may come along or may not. Your 5D2 is a brilliant piece of kit no matter what.
If that money's really burning in your pocket trade in the mk2 for a mk3 just for the fun of learning something new, or get that 6D as a companion to your mk2.
As for myself, the 1D-X is a dream come true for the types of events I shoot, moving targets in badly lit circumstances. My 7D copes, but the noise is quite high, it is something I acknowledge and I've become pretty adept at working around the limitations too. (I think)  The 1D-X has to stay in the shops for a while longer as it is currently out of my league price-wise. But that's ok. 
I now need to go research some stuff on how to get even more out of my 7D so it will serve me well for some time to come.


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## FunPhotons (Jan 15, 2013)

caruser said:


> My 5D2 needs an upgrade, but the 5D3 doesn't have interchangeable focus-screens which I need for wide-aperture (manual) lenses (and the lack of improvement in the shadow noise is a bit of a let-down). The 1DX would be possible, too, but for that amount of cash I'd like 24 or 28 megapixels (with proportionally slower frame rate), everything else is great.



My feelings PRECISELY. I'm not a ranter, but I found no reason to upgrade with the latest bodies. 



> Since moving to full-frame the 70-200 is a bit short, but I don't want to substitute it with a less-sharp-and-inferior-IS 100-400, give me a new version already



Also agree



> And what about wide-angle, where is the 14-24 competitor, or even a 17-40 or 16-35 that's half as sharp?



Don't really agree, I'm fine with my 16-35 and am not really interested in the 14-24



> Where is the quality 20 IS USM to go with the 24 and 28?



Another hit! I really want a good 20mm



> And don't get me started on all the missing or crippled firmware features, some decent updates there might have pushed me to a 5D3 or 1DX, but there's no real auto-iso in m with exposure compensation, no proper way to set the min and max shutter speed or aperture in the semi-auto modes, no histogram when zoomed in like the smallest nikons do, ... ... ...



I'm disappointed they didn't push support for the new RT flashes to the 5DMII. Obvious ploy to get us to upgrade.


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## caruser (Jan 15, 2013)

K3nt said:


> While I can see some of the points the original poster made I don't share the immense disappointment. Someone said it's a swiss army knife, not far off. Everything is a compromise.



The train of thoughts was something like "the 5D2 is very nice, but with what I'm shooting recently I need a more capable AF, so the 5D3 should be a good match, except that it doesn't improve on the IQ in ways that I would like to see in my next purchase (given that the competition does it), I can't add the MF-optimised focus screen, and it still doesn't give me AF-point linked spot-metering, so what can I buy?" That's when I started thinking about the 1DX, except that I would like more mega-pixels, too; I often crop landscapes to a 3x1 format, that leaves 9 MP which isn't terribly much for 1 square meter prints...


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## DHaass (Jan 15, 2013)

Have you considered stacking photos with what you have? Shoot in vertical across the landscape, overlapping shots and make 2 square meter prints or whatever size you want once cropped in. I'm just sayin...there is a way to get what you want with what you have.


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## FatDaddyJones (Jan 15, 2013)

I am a moderator on another forum. My job there is to keep the discussions on topic and check for inappropriate comments. Some would consider this censorship and suppression of free speech. I personally think that forums like this ought to have posted rules of conduct on the boards with moderators that enforce them. This site DOES have rules:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=1442.0

Unfortunately, they don't seem to be enforced very much in quite a few topic threads here lately.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 15, 2013)

John MARK said:


> So for me, the equation might be solved by a 6D (landscape, low light, portrait etc.) + 7D II (fast action, reach etc.) combo in the mid term.
> 
> OK, maybe a 1DX might look like an all-in-one equivalent, "just a bit" more expensive than that combo _(pure speculation right now, concerning 7D II schedule & pricing)_ but I've long been taught not to put all my eggs in the same bag !



I did the 7D + 5DII thing for a couple of years, which is a lot like the 6D + 7DII scenario - the 5DII for landscapes and portraits, the 7D for birds/wildlife. The thing is, the 1D X is a _really_ nice 'bag'. It's a lot more robust than the lesser bodies, that great AF and fast frame rate comes in handy for portraits (basically, each shot is a 'double-tap' so there's almost never a lost shot due to a blink, etc.). As for reach, it's artificial unless you're printing large - a 1D X image cropped to the FoV of the 7D gives a 7 MP image that still has (slightly) better IQ, and if you don't need to crop, the IQ is much better. If you're always shooting at ISO 400-800 or less, the 7D does very well, but at higher ISOs, the 1D X is much better - enough so that I see no point in keeping the 7D, and unless a 7DII brings ISO improvements that push it into the FF IQ range, it's not particularly tempting to me...


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 15, 2013)

FatDaddyJones said:


> I am a moderator on another forum. My job there is to keep the discussions on topic and check for inappropriate comments. Some would consider this censorship and suppression of free speech. I personally think that forums like this ought to have posted rules of conduct on the boards with moderators that enforce them. This site DOES have rules:
> http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=1442.0
> 
> Unfortunately, they don't seem to be enforced very much in quite a few topic threads here lately.



At a guess, I'd say you were typing this as a mod was cleaning up this very thread.  Or so I assume, since I don't see anything particularly objectionable here now...


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## FatDaddyJones (Jan 15, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> At a guess, I'd say you were typing this as a mod was cleaning up this very thread.  Or so I assume, since I don't see anything particularly objectionable here now...



Thank you


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## caruser (Jan 15, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> I did the 7D + 5DII thing for a couple of years, which is a lot like the 6D + 7DII scenario - the 5DII for landscapes and portraits, the 7D for birds/wildlife. The thing is, the 1D X is a _really_ nice 'bag'. It's a lot more robust than the lesser bodies, that great AF and fast frame rate comes in handy for portraits (basically, each shot is a 'double-tap' so there's almost never a lost shot due to a blink, etc.). As for reach, it's artificial unless you're printing large - a 1D X image cropped to the FoV of the 7D gives a 7 MP image that still has (slightly) better IQ, and if you don't need to crop, the IQ is much better.



Interesting, did you miss the 3 MP difference when going from the 5D2 to the 1DX? (And, if not, because the images are cleaner to make up the difference or because you never print in the square meter range?)


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 15, 2013)

caruser said:


> Interesting, did you miss the 3 MP difference when going from the 5D2 to the 1DX? (And, if not, because the images are cleaner to make up the difference or because you never print in the square meter range?)



I don't miss the 3 MP, and that's beacuse of the cleaner images. I do print at up to 24x36", occasionally larger. I get 1-2 stops better ISO performance with the 1D X compared to the 5DII, a combination of lower noise and better quality of remaining noise. ISO 3200 was my usual cap for the 5DII, with ISO 6400 for 'emergencies'. On the 1D X, I routinely shoot at up to ISO 8000, and will go over ISO 12800 if I need to, with decent results.


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## RLPhoto (Jan 15, 2013)

caruser said:


> ...and I'm writing this to counter all the recent Canon bashing and flaming here, I can't find anything worth buying!
> 
> My 5D2 needs an upgrade, but the 5D3 doesn't have interchangeable focus-screens which I need for wide-aperture (manual) lenses (and the lack of improvement in the shadow noise is a bit of a let-down). The 1DX would be possible, too, but for that amount of cash I'd like 24 or 28 megapixels (with proportionally slower frame rate), everything else is great.
> 
> ...





I used a 5Dc with the EG-s screen for years! and it was perfect but I dont miss it with the 5D3 AF. Granted, I'd like to have both the EG-S and the 5D3 AF. Even the Focus confirmation is 10x more accurate with manual lenses on all AF points.

As for reach, Just get an new M-III tele-converter but canon is lacking in the wide department but If you that serious to buy a 2000$ 14-24, why not look into the Zeiss 15mm? 

If your in M mode, I don't see a need for Expo-comp because there must be a particular reason for the person selecting they're aperture or shutter speed. The Auto ISO works great on my 5D3 In M mode. Granted, I would appreciate a zoom histogram.

But you must appreciate that canon DOES have a 100-400mm, canon DOES have the 600EX-RT, and canon DOES have the Best AF on the Market, The fact that canon DOES allow you to even change focusing screens in the first place and so many things that make this platform unique.


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## caruser (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks Neuro, there goes one of my last reasons against the 1DX ;-)



RLPhoto said:


> I used a 5Dc with the EG-s screen for years! and it was perfect but I dont miss it with the 5D3 AF. Granted, I'd like to have both the EG-S and the 5D3 AF. Even the Focus confirmation is 10x more accurate with manual lenses on all AF points.


Yeah, I was wondering whether the AF was good enough to make up for the lack of an EG-S equivalent, but...


RLPhoto said:


> As for reach, Just get an new M-III tele-converter but canon is lacking in the wide department but If you that serious to buy a 2000$ 14-24, why not look into the Zeiss 15mm?


I am seriously considering the Zeiss 21mm, but I might get a 17-40 first in order to determine which focal length I like best.


RLPhoto said:


> If your in M mode, I don't see a need for Expo-comp because there must be a particular reason for the person selecting they're aperture or shutter speed. The Auto ISO works great on my 5D3 In M mode. Granted, I would appreciate a zoom histogram.


The expo-comp in manual with auto iso would bias the automatically selected iso and leave the time and aperture alone.


RLPhoto said:


> But you must appreciate that canon DOES have a 100-400mm, canon DOES have the 600EX-RT, and canon DOES have the Best AF on the Market, The fact that canon DOES allow you to even change focusing screens in the first place and so many things that make this platform unique.


Oh yes, I've got my personal prime trinity 35L, 100L, 135L and am very happy them, plus some more stuff that works great, too! If all I had was a 28-135, and I didn't care about the 135L, which is my favorite lens, I might already have a D800e, because what I don't really care for are anti-aliasing filters.

Speaking of AA filters, put that on the list of things for Canon to improve, i.e. optionally get rid of...


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## RLPhoto (Jan 15, 2013)

caruser said:


> Speaking of AA filters, put that on the list of things for Canon to improve, i.e. optionally get rid of...



No one said that you can't get rid of them, Life-pixel.com would be happy to get rid of the AA filter for you. You even get to keep dust-reduction working.

http://shop.lifepixel.com/3-AA-anti-aliasing-filter-removal-for-sharper-photos/1-Canon-DSLR-Anti-Aliasing-Filter-Removal-Service-p123.html


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## Ryan708 (Jan 15, 2013)

Ive seen some reviews stating the 6D has very bad moire in video and pattern shots. Perhaps a very limited AA filter? wonder if anyone has tested this yet? 6D perhaps a good landscape/studio cam?


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## RustyTheGeek (Jan 15, 2013)

Wow. $500 + shipping to remove the AA filter. What level of improvement could be expected after that investment? And how would it affect the resale value I wonder?


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## JonS (Jan 15, 2013)

(Zeiss is sooo 60's tech).

The Zeiss lens is based on a symmetrical Planar design originally invented in 1896....and the 100mm Macro-Planar is a formidable competitor to either of the 2 Canon 100m macro lenses we have now


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## rs (Jan 15, 2013)

Ryan708 said:


> Ive seen some reviews stating the 6D has very bad moire in video and pattern shots. Perhaps a very limited AA filter? wonder if anyone has tested this yet? 6D perhaps a good landscape/studio cam?



The AA filter is very different to the software process that goes on to scale down the frame into the video resolution. The AA (or low pass) filter blurs the image to approximately the correct amount to make the four R G G B bayer pixels blend into one - thereby almost completely eliminating false colour from the image that could be caused by high contrast fine detail just exciting the one colour pixel. This AA filter is required for both stills and video as the false colour cannot be removed in post processing, even when downsampled.

The video scaling is needed for rendering a low res image from the high res frame. If its done the simple way as on the 6D (and most other SLR's), instead of using the best part of 9 pixels combined to produce the one in the video, it just uses one. That way, the video has a tendancy to look very sharp, but moire (not colour moire) occurs with high contrast fine detail. For instance, fine parallel lines such as a wire fence could mostly miss the pixels which are used, and the ones which are would intermittently see the fence to produce a fairly ugly looking pattern. Again, this moire is impossible to remove in post processing. The 5D mk III uses exactly 9 sensor pixels downsampled into one video pixel to avoid this moire.



RustyTheGeek said:


> Wow. $500 + shipping to remove the AA filter. What level of improvement could be expected after that investment? And how would it affect the resale value I wonder?



It would get the image nearer to the full native resolution of the sensor, but at the expense of colour moire. Unfortunately, the only time you really want that extra resolution is when shooting fine detail with a very sharp lens, and that's the exact time when colour moire will show up. The best way to avoid it is to use a small aperture to blur the image enough to avoid moire, or tweak the focus ring a bit to deliberately mis-focus the shot. Either way, you're not getting the full resolution. Either that or don't under any circumstances photograph any high contrast fine detail with it.

The D800E gets away with it to some extent because its pixel density is so high that the average lens, its AF system and using it on less than a perfect tripod all add up to produce enough blurring to reduce moire.

Try an original Canon 1D if you want to see moire - such a low res sensor with no AA filter doesn't look pretty with fine repeating patterns.


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## K-amps (Jan 15, 2013)

RustyTheGeek said:


> Wow. $500 + shipping to remove the AA filter. What level of improvement could be expected after that investment? And how would it affect the resale value I wonder?



Wondered the same thing... they do say they are swamped, so perhaps there is a premium associated these days? But before making any decisions, I need to see the difference of before and after the AA and see if it is worth $500.

Thanks for posting though RL.


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## ewg963 (Jan 17, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> caruser said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting, did you miss the 3 MP difference when going from the 5D2 to the 1DX? (And, if not, because the images are cleaner to make up the difference or because you never print in the square meter range?)
> ...


 Hello Nuero do you have any images that you can post I currently have the Mark II and 3200 ISO was my ceiling. I'd love to see some I DX images above the 6000 ISO. Thanking you in advance.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 17, 2013)

ewg963 said:


> Hello Nuero do you have any images that you can post I currently have the Mark II and 3200 ISO was my ceiling. I'd love to see some I DX images above the 6000 ISO. Thanking you in advance.



A couple at ISO 6400 and one at ISO 12800. Click through then View All Sizes for a 1600 pixel image.




EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II USM, 1/250 s, f/4, ISO 6400




EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II USM, 1/320 s, f/4, ISO 6400




EOS 1D X, EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM @ 70mm, 1/200 s, f/5, ISO 12800


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## caruser (Jan 17, 2013)

It's done, just ordered the 1DX. Just read the manual, many unexpected things and details, all of them positive with one exception, just as I had put an Eg-S in the 5D2 I wanted to put the equivalent Ec-S into the 1DX but it doesn't seem to be properly supported; what do other people use, one of the split-prism screens or just install the Ec-S and work around the supposed exposure issues?


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## ewg963 (Jan 17, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> ewg963 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello Nuero do you have any images that you can post I currently have the Mark II and 3200 ISO was my ceiling. I'd love to see some I DX images above the 6000 ISO. Thanking you in advance.
> ...


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