# Canon officially announces the Canon EOS R6 Mark II, Canon RF 135mm f/1.8L IS USM and Canon Speedlite EL-5



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 2, 2022)

> MELVILLE, NY, November 2, 2022 – Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, announced today the launch of the new EOS R6 Mark II camera body, Canon’s new hybrid full-frame camera, and the first EOS R series full-frame mirrorless to take the step into the second generation. In addition, Canon is also introducing the new RF135mm F1.8 L IS USM mid-telephoto portrait lens and Speedlite EL-5 flash unit.
> Ideal for advanced amateurs and featuring user-friendly functions, the EOS R6 Mark II camera is a high-performance hybrid camera that’s designed to capture decisive moments in both photo and video formats. It will satisfy a wide range of needs including professional production...



Continue reading...


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## NorskHest (Nov 2, 2022)




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## dlee13 (Nov 2, 2022)

135L is pretty much DOA here in Australia since it’s $3899 AUD and the 135GM is only $2300 AUD. Not to mention you got the option of the Samyang 135mm f/1.8 AF for around $1400 AUD.


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## David - Sydney (Nov 2, 2022)

Sensor is FSI not BSI/stacked as per DP Review but rolling shutter has improved.


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## HMC11 (Nov 2, 2022)

Not stacked sensor, but has new hot shoe, 40fps electronic, 4k60p uncropped oversampled from 6k, better AF (seemingly). Seems not unfair at $2499.


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## David - Sydney (Nov 2, 2022)

Battery life/CIPA has improved >10% which is a good sign and matches A7iv.
Pre-buffer finally makes it on a Canon body!
flash sync @1/200s mechanical, 1/250s EFCS.
Mostly a video update and virtually no thermal limits or 30 minute clip length
And it has a Rate button 
I'm thinking that it is like the 5Diii to 5Div.. nothing that jumps out of the spec sheet but improvements all round that would be appreciated.


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## exige24 (Nov 2, 2022)

R6 II ........ * Yawn *


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## Chaitanya (Nov 2, 2022)

Sensor is a disapointment(if it indeed is old design), seems like Canons castration fetish was strong with this one. While El-5 and 135 are quite interesting.

Edit: EL-5 with Li-Ion battery pack and undercutting 600ex seems like a great option for cameras with new hot shoe.


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## Jonathan Thill (Nov 2, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> 135L is pretty much DOA here in Australia since it’s $3899 AUD and the 135GM is only $2300 AUD. Not to mention you got the option of the Samyang 135mm f/1.8 AF for around $1400 AUD.


5 year warranty... has IS and is not made by a Chinese lens cloner. Yep DOA for sure.


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## exige24 (Nov 2, 2022)

If this is how they upgrade the R5, I'll just be waiting for the R1. Phoning that crap in. It's been 2 years. C'mon


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## jam05 (Nov 2, 2022)

Not stacked or even BSI. Meh. "Functions" based on firmware. Unbelieveable. Not worth $2499. Another mediocre old image sensor. Canon and Sony close out the year trying to bamboozle with firmware. The RF 135 1.8 is the only thing exciting


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## David - Sydney (Nov 2, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> 135L is pretty much DOA here in Australia since it’s $3899 AUD and the 135GM is only $2300 AUD. Not to mention you got the option of the Samyang 135mm f/1.8 AF for around $1400 AUD.


The RF135L is certainly expensive here.

Weird that the R5 vs R6ii price differential is ~50% extra for the R5 in the US but the difference in Australia is only 20% premium! 
(George's has it AUD5400 vs AUD4500). The R5 pricing is all over the place though from AUD5400 to AUD6400 at the moment. 
Makes the R5 look like a bargain


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## Skux (Nov 2, 2022)

Not sure why they didn't keep the power switch on the left and make the new switch on the right the photo/video toggle, to keep their design language consistent.

This is modest upgrade which addresses most of the issues of the R6 but since I shoot mainly photos I'll be hanging on to my R6 for now, and waiting for that stacked sensor...


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## fr34k (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> "Functions" based on firmware.


I am hoping that the R5 will get firmware 2.0 soon- November would fit their recent update cycle
Since quite a lot of functionality in the R7 and R6 II is based on FW I can only pray that they upgrade their top of the line products. I'd be even willing to pay like a hundo for said upgrades to my R5.


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## danfaz (Nov 2, 2022)

Skux said:


> Not sure why they didn't keep the power switch on the left and make the new switch on the right the photo/video toggle.


I've seen a few YouTube "influencers" request this setup as they wanted to be able to turn the camera on and shoot with one hand.


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## Rocksthaman (Nov 2, 2022)

This Camera is amazing. It’s really what the R5C firmware should have been.

Bump in mp and resolving
6k
False color
Focus breathing correction
40 fps (won’t be using this)
Fast photo video switch
No crop
Raw output
New autofocus
Subject detection
No overheating
Auto webcam through usb
Updated joy stick
Updated Hot shoe
Better battery
Bracketing
Digital converter
Face only af
Pre record 
Flicker reduction 

Anyone complaining about this release is missing the point. It’s not about the specs specifically even though there are spec bumps, this camera is such an improvement with regards to usability.


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## SnowMiku (Nov 2, 2022)

Probably not worth the upgrade for an existing R6 user, but great if you don't own one already. People who brought an R6 within the last 3 months or so would likely be annoyed at this announcement.

I wonder if an R5 II will be coming soon? I think the second generation will be the one where the main issues such as random freezing will be fixed.


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## jam05 (Nov 2, 2022)

Just simply astounding that Fujifilm releases that X-H2s, while Canon and Sony simply lay goose eggs. $2499 is simply too damn much for aged image sensor technology. Not worth it. Simply not worth it. There's absolutely no firmware in this device worth the amount of money Canon is asking. Nothing that any firmware engineer couldnt do in a few hours, maybe a week at the most. Wait for 2023 folks. This isnt anything worth your hard earned moola unless you simply feeling like tossing $2499 × tax at this garbage.


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## SnowMiku (Nov 2, 2022)

danfaz said:


> I've seen a few YouTube "influencers" request this setup as they wanted to be able to turn the camera on and shoot with one hand.


That makes sense to me. Although personally it wouldn't effect me as I keep my switch on for the whole shoot.


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## dolina (Nov 2, 2022)




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## vignes (Nov 2, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> 135L is pretty much DOA here in Australia since it’s $3899 AUD and the 135GM is only $2300 AUD. Not to mention you got the option of the Samyang 135mm f/1.8 AF for around $1400 AUD.


I second that


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## PhotoGenerous (Nov 2, 2022)

exige24 said:


> If this is how they upgrade the R5, I'll just be waiting for the R1. Phoning that crap in. It's been 2 years. C'mon


But two years is _extremely_ fast. It was 4.5 years between the 6D and 6DII. It's the Rebel line that had a yearly release.


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## dolina (Nov 2, 2022)

PhotoGenerous said:


> But two years is _extremely_ fast. It was 4.5 years between the 6D and 6DII. It's the Rebel line that had a yearly release.


I agree.

My guess is that Canon's pressured to compete with Sony or specific parts of the original R6 is difficult to source to cause unwanted manufacturing delays.

Sony tackled this with the "a" variant of specific A7 bodies.


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## dlee13 (Nov 2, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> The RF135L is certainly expensive here.
> 
> Weird that the R5 vs R6ii price differential is ~50% extra for the R5 in the US but the difference in Australia is only 20% premium!
> (George's has it AUD5400 vs AUD4500). The R5 pricing is all over the place though from AUD5400 to AUD6400 at the moment.
> Makes the R5 look like a bargain


UK got hit hard too, was £1000 more than the GM so ours is even worse though. 

Yeah they way they determine the pricing is very strange. You’ll find a lot of the stores like Digi tend to bump the prices up before a big sale or cashbacks. Digi especially keep doing 20% off on their eBay so some of those R6 prices have been as low as $2800!


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## dlee13 (Nov 2, 2022)

PhotoGenerous said:


> But two years is _extremely_ fast. It was 4.5 years between the 6D and 6DII. It's the Rebel line that had a yearly release.


I think they only updated it so soon because they want to release a body lower than it to replace the R/RP and this makes the R6II way more high end compared to what they plan to release I’m guessing.


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## PhotoGenerous (Nov 2, 2022)

Happy for everyone that these products were for. If I didn't already have an R5 and R6, I would totally picked this up as my second body. But now that I have two, I'm waiting for more. The 135 also looks beautiful, but I already have the EF and I don't even use that all that often. Reducing the minimum focal length from 3 feet to 2.3 would be welcome though.

I'm waiting for the rumored new R5 model isn't a R5II. And I'm crossing my fingers that the controls layout is mostly identical to my R5.


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## notalchymy (Nov 2, 2022)

This is hands down the *Best Canon hybrid camera* for event work or social media work. Yeah the R3 and R7 maybe can compete, but either you pay $6k or get a cropped sensor.

False color?
No Record Limit
6k RAW?????
An IMMEDIATE Photo/Video switch?
Fast Custom Functions?

Literally only complaint I have is the Micro HDMI port.

I’ve placed my preorder ‍


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## PhotoGenerous (Nov 2, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> I think they only updated it so soon because they want to release a body lower than it to replace the R/RP and this makes the R6II way more high end compared to what they plan to release I’m guessing.


That will be interesting to see if it happens. But I'm betting on those models never getting an update. They didn't follow Canon's naming scheme because they were planned as transitional cameras. Now that the R3, R5, R6, R7, R10 are out there which do follow Canon's regular conventions, the R and RP will just remain left behind.

I'm betting the next low end camera will be the R100. That could be interesting to me if it uses the RP/M Line battery as an attempt to get it as small as possible. (If it's possible to get smaller than the RP. I've never held one.) That could be a halfway replacement to the RP, in the size aspect at least, but just in crop sensor form instead of full frame.


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## Skyscraperfan (Nov 2, 2022)

So much money for a camera that even the manufacturer markets as a camera for "advanced amateurs"? 

They downgraded the sensor from 20 to 24 megapixels, without upgrading it to BSI in return? Can we expect a lower dynamic range now?

Quite a disappointment. Only for R3 users it might be good news that Canon does not bring a camera with the same sensor as the R3 for less than half the price,

At least it still does not have a notch.


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## -pekr- (Nov 2, 2022)

Not even a stacked sensor? Also 4K for video is not enough - no space to crop in post and I don't care about an Atomos option. A big pass.

So, the general notion of a potentially more expensive sensor instead of using the one from the R3, was not correct. Of course the relatively low price speculation was kind of warning, that it might not be the case in the end. The bad thing is, that now Canon got their 24mpx sensor for their low cost bodies, which simply means - not much of an improvoement for a foreseable future ....


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## Avenger 2.0 (Nov 2, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> I think they only updated it so soon because they want to release a body lower than it to replace the R/RP and this makes the R6II way more high end compared to what they plan to release I’m guessing.


I'm hoping for a small lower end full-frame (no ibis, single card slot, lp-E17 battery), but if one comes, it will be the RP successor. Don't see any place for a R replacement, since it was a baby 5DIV (clog, top-screen). Maybe a dumbed down and crippled R6II, but would not call that a R successor...


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## bf (Nov 2, 2022)

I doubt if this sensor is actually cheaper to make than the 20MP of R6.


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## Skyscraperfan (Nov 2, 2022)

By the way, where did the rumor that we should expect a "beast of a camera" come from? I can't see anything beasty about the R6 Mark II.


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## reisi007 (Nov 2, 2022)

Just under 3k € in Germany....






Canon EOS R6 Mark II Gehäuse 5666C004 - fotokoch.at


Canon EOS R6 Mark II Gehäuse jetzt günstig einkaufen bei fotokoch.de, ihrem Onlineshop mit großer Auswahl an Systemkamera Vollformat Gehäuse. Preiswert, schnell, zuverlässig.



www.fotokoch.at


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## Exploreshootshare (Nov 2, 2022)

reisi007 said:


> Just under 3k € in Germany....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Too expensive and not tempting for me… 

depending on the sensor I might have been in the market, but not having any kind of upgrade sensor wise,ä and being a „stills only“ shooter, I’d actually consider a R6mk I if there is a nice discount in addition to the ongoing cashback.


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## Skyscraperfan (Nov 2, 2022)

I noticed one great upgrade: It now has an optical viewfinder simulation like the R3 and R7. Although you no longer see the exposure preview, if you enable it, I like this feature very much, because I come from DSLRs and the optical viewfinder is the thing I miss the most. 

Doubling the fps will be a big deal for many. It now is even faster than the R3, but then they should also have included a CFexpress slot to make transfering the data a lot faster.


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## Traveler (Nov 2, 2022)

No top LCD, not gonna upgrade 
But if that burst mode selection works also with mechanical shutter then it would be amazing.


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## mb66energy (Nov 2, 2022)

It was a candidate to complement my R7 but ergonomically both are to different. I would have liked to have the same OFF-PHOTO-VIDEO switch and the joystick-wheel combo to program my muscle memory one times for both cameras.
Canon is not willing to give as seamless ergonomics between APS-C and FF ...
Maybe we will see a good RF-S 10-22 or similar UWA so a 2nd R7(c ?) will be my choice - the EF-S 10-22 is good but no match to the R7 (and not to the M50) in terms of IQ.
EDIT:
It is close to 3000 EUR in Germany - probability for a 2nd R7 is close to 100% ... and maybe I will reevaluate the EF-S 10-22 with the R7 and fiddle around with some settings in post.


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## mb66energy (Nov 2, 2022)

notalchymy said:


> The new R6 Mkii is lighter than the old R6 by 100g and also doesn’t list the materials of construction. Could it be it isn’t built with magnesium anymore? Or is it too soon to tell….
> 
> [...]


Maybe filled with helium? Maybe smaller buffer? 
Or you have compared the naked weight of the mark ii with the full weight of the mark i.
According to the us canon homepage R6 is 680g and R6 ii is 688g each with battery and card.


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## photophil (Nov 2, 2022)

Exploreshootshare said:


> Too expensive and not tempting for me…
> 
> depending on the sensor I might have been in the market, but not having any kind of upgrade sensor wise,ä and being a „stills only“ shooter, I’d actually consider a R6mk I if there is a nice discount in addition to the ongoing cashback.


I got my R6 at Mediamarkt for a total of €1800 a couple of months back when they had both a discount corresponding to the amount of VAT (thereabouts) as well as the €300 cashback from Canon.
Maybe they'll have another promo like that on black Friday?

As proud owner of an O.G. R6 I am kind of glad that pricing for the R6II is as it is. No buyer's remorse here


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## WilliamJ (Nov 2, 2022)

No record limit, slight bump in MP from 20 to 24, better rolling shutter performance and a photo/video switch in place of the old on/off button and 150p are all small but important reasons that make me want to upgrade from R6 as my backup wedding camera for both photo and video!


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## Emyr Evans (Nov 2, 2022)

135mm in the UK is £2167 before VAT.

That's $2490 US. So Canon have added $390 (£340) additional Canon Tax for the SAME lens. That's a whopping +15% Canon Tax in the UK.

No thanks. Other camera companies simply don't do this - Fuji for example.


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## Berowne (Nov 2, 2022)

Prices in Frankfurt am Main (Calumet) 
* R 6 II: 2.898,99 € (available 29.11.2022) 
* RF 135 F1.8 L IS: 2.699,00 € (available 26.01.2023) 

So moderate higher Price for the Body and significantly higher Price for the lens, compared to the retail Price. Having a R6 i am not interested in the new Body but the lens is nice.


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## koenkooi (Nov 2, 2022)

Berowne said:


> Prices in Frankfurt am Main (Calumet)
> * R 6 II: 2.898,99 € (available 29.11.2022)
> * RF 135 F1.8 L IS: 2.699,00 € (available 26.01.2023)
> 
> So moderate higher Price for the Body and significantly higher Price for the lens, compared to the retail Price. Having a R6 i am not interested in the new Body but the lens is nice.


I had expected it to be more than €3000 for the RF 135, so I'm pleasantly surprised about the price for once


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## Skyscraperfan (Nov 2, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> I had expected it to be more than €3000 for the RF 135, so I'm pleasantly surprised about the price for once


So Canon already has got their customers so far that they see it as good news if a new lens costs less than €3000 

That reminds me of Apple which convinced its customers than a $799 iPhone is cheap.


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## Cyborx (Nov 2, 2022)

NOOOOO! What I was affraid of, happened.
Canon is charging absurd prices again.
The EOS R6 mark II is 2990 euro’s in Europe.

STOP Robbing us! Just charge 2495,- like the dollar price. Keep your promises!


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## Del Paso (Nov 2, 2022)

Business as usual...
- Raising exaggerated expectations ( $5500 camera's features in a $3000 camera )
- Being angry or disappointed Canon didn't meet one's pressing demand
- Canon bashing, what else?
The cycle is complete, only threatening to jump ship is (till now) missing.

Edit: we now have one declared ship-jumper !


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## Emyr Evans (Nov 2, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Business as usual...
> - Raising exaggerated expectations ( $5500 camera's features in a $3000 camera )
> - Being angry or disappointed Canon didn't meet one's pressing demand
> - Canon bashing, what else?
> The cycle is complete, only threatening to jump ship is (till now) missing.


Go somewhere else if it pi$$es you off.


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## notalchymy (Nov 2, 2022)

mb66energy said:


> Maybe filled with helium? Maybe smaller buffer?
> Or you have compared the naked weight of the mark ii with the full weight of the mark i.
> According to the us canon homepage R6 is 680g and R6 ii is 688g each with battery and card.


Ye, i checked the canon website and removed my post


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## xps (Nov 2, 2022)

My question: What will this pricing tell us? Better exchange ratios (US$:€) for bodies (R1 under 10.000??) and worser exchange ratio for the 300mm&1.4extender????


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## Deleted member 381342 (Nov 2, 2022)

Looks like th camera got some solid updates. And of course it didn‘t have a stacked sensor that costs more than the entire camera, people need to ground expectations. Stacked sensors will come out of the flagships in a decade if at all(improvements to fsi and bsi sensors may make them good enough that stacked sensors remain for only critical applications)


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## Emyr Evans (Nov 2, 2022)

So, in the UK, Canon reckon they can charge £1,000 ($1,150) MORE for their 135mm compared to the Sony version, one of the sharpest lenses ever made.


Yet, in the US, both lenses cost exactly the same.


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## AlanF (Nov 2, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> NOOOOO! What I was affraid of, happened.
> Canon is charging absurd prices again.
> The EOS R6 mark II is 2990 euro’s in Europe.
> 
> STOP Robbing us! Just charge 2495,- like the dollar price. Keep your promises!


How many times does have to be posted: the US prices are without sales tax, the EU and UK have about 20% sales tax added. €2990 is about $2490 when the VAT etc is removed. The price in the EU is the same as the US without taxes. But, the UK gets robbed by Canon EU. Our price is £2799, which equates to about €3250, a mark up of 8.5%.


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## Emyr Evans (Nov 2, 2022)

AlanF said:


> How many times does have to be posted: the US prices are without sales tax, the EU and UK have about 20% sales tax added. €2990 is about $2490 when the VAT etc is removed. The price in the EU is the same as the US without taxes. But, the UK gets robbed by Canon EU. Our price is £2799, which equates to about €3250, a mark up of 8.5%.


The Canon Tax in the UK is +15% (£340) vs the US price.

Canon are charging £1,000 more for the 135mm f1.8 than Sony.


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## koenkooi (Nov 2, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> So Canon already has got their customers so far that they see it as good news if a new lens costs less than €3000
> 
> That reminds me of Apple which convinced its customers than a $799 iPhone is cheap.


That why I mentioned ‘inured’ yesterday, it’s still hella expensive, just less than expected


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## vangelismm (Nov 2, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Pre-buffer finally makes it on a Canon body!


M6 mark ii?


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## Del Paso (Nov 2, 2022)

Emyr Evans said:


> Go somewhere else if it pi$$es you off.


Welcome, friendly and polite poster !


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## binary (Nov 2, 2022)

I'm glad the battery life was improved from silly 380-510 shots to 450-760. It was my biggest complain. I also hope it doesn't drain much when the camera is turned off. For me this camera is all I wished for when Mark I came out. I'm not gonna upgrade. Instead I'll wait for release of R5 Mark II and upgrade instead to R5 mark I if the price will go down.


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## Emyr Evans (Nov 2, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Welcome, friendly and polite poster !


I'm jumping ship.


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## BurningPlatform (Nov 2, 2022)

AlanF said:


> How many times does have to be posted: the US prices are without sales tax, the EU and UK have about 20% sales tax added. €2990 is about $2490 when the VAT etc is removed. The price in the EU is the same as the US without taxes. But, the UK gets robbed by Canon EU. Our price is £2799, which equates to about €3250, a mark up of 8.5%.


Maybe Canon did the prices for UK while Truss was still PM.


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## SNJ Ops (Nov 2, 2022)

Emyr Evans said:


> The Canon Tax in the UK is +15% (£340) vs the US price.
> 
> Canon are charging £1,000 more for the 135mm f1.8 than Sony.


An absolutely atrocious price, an extra £200-300 for IS would have been reasonable but £1000 over the GM is mind-boggling. For a lot of UK Canon shooters I think this might slightly bump up sales of the EF version and Sigma Art 135s.


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## Cyborx (Nov 2, 2022)

AlanF said:


> How many times does have to be posted: the US prices are without sales tax, the EU and UK have about 20% sales tax added. €2990 is about $2490 when the VAT etc is removed. The price in the EU is the same as the US without taxes. But, the UK gets robbed by Canon EU. Our price is £2799, which equates to about €3250, a mark up of 8.5%.



https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1733214-REG/canon_eos_r6_mark_ii.html 

BH Charges 2499 TAX INCLUDED!
Dollar/Euro rate is 1:1 
So again? WTF?


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## Cyborx (Nov 2, 2022)

It's sad, but again, I am NOT buying this camera because of this robbing 400 euro scam in Europe. 
Too bad, I was so ready to buy two of these... but Canon keeps surprising me.


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## tomislavmoze (Nov 2, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> NOOOOO! What I was affraid of, happened.
> Canon is charging absurd prices again.
> The EOS R6 mark II is 2990 euro’s in Europe.
> 
> STOP Robbing us! Just charge 2495,- like the dollar price. Keep your promises!


Well USA prices are without tax, if you remove VAT that Germany has you get the price of 2511,6 euros that is really close to the USA price.


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## wockawocka (Nov 2, 2022)

Focus breathing correction - Video only?


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## tomislavmoze (Nov 2, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1733214-REG/canon_eos_r6_mark_ii.html
> 
> BH Charges 2499 TAX INCLUDED!
> Dollar/Euro rate is 1:1
> So again? WTF?


Are you sure that the tax is included? Cause that would mean that in some USA states the price would be even lower, and that is currently not the case. My experience with B&H if you buy in the store in New York you ad the tax to the online store prices.


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## tomislavmoze (Nov 2, 2022)

I'm really happy with this release, I already preorder mine and will get rid of my R6, this brought almost every change I was hoping for and even more.
This is a perfect camera for modern content creator who produces both videos and photos like I do.
Canon is really listening to all the things most of us asked.
Could it be better? Yes it could but with a price increase..
Is it perfect?for some people probably, for me close enough!
I almost got the R3, but now I get a cheaper close enough solution in smaller form factor which I prefer


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Not stacked or even BSI. Meh. "Functions" based on firmware. Unbelieveable. Not worth $2499. Another mediocre old image sensor. Canon and Sony close out the year trying to bamboozle with firmware. The RF 135 1.8 is the only thing exciting


But…but…but… Stacked sensors are cheaper to make, you said. You positively assured us that was true. Wow, Canon must be stupid for throwing away profit by using a more expensive sensor.


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## Del Paso (Nov 2, 2022)

Emyr Evans said:


> I'm jumping ship.


We'll miss you so much !


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> BH Charges 2499 TAX INCLUDED!
> Dollar/Euro rate is 1:1
> So again? WTF?


No, tax is not included in the $2499 price. IF and only if you use their affiliate credit card (which is issued by a crappy bank known for consumer-unfriendly fees and policies), B&H will pay the sales tax for you. 

Try to get your facts straight.


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## Del Paso (Nov 2, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Well USA prices are without tax, if you remove VAT that Germany has you get the price of 2511,6 euros that is really close to the USA price.


And VAT is about 20% in Europe.
Free (almost...) healthcare in Europe has a price.
I'd rather pay more for a new camera every few years...


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## Skyscraperfan (Nov 2, 2022)

Actually professionals do not have to pay that VAT in Germany as far as I know. They first have to pay it, but they get it back from the German IRS. 

I always found it strange that tax is not included in the price in the US. You buy a can of soda for a dollar and then the cashier want $1.09


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## xps (Nov 2, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> And VAT is about 20% in Europe.
> Free (almost...) healthcare in Europe has a price.
> I'd rather pay more for a new camera every few years...


Indeed, our healthcare system in DACH (Germany, Switzerland, Austria) is very good. Maybe not efficient, especially at some hospital groups you get an extra surgical intervention if our DRG system adds some points. But for almost all treatments you do not have to pay extra and the quality is good.

The market will decide, if Canon is able to hold the prices high. If a lot of consumers and influencer think, e.g. the Sony A7 IV and their 135mm GM is better - and a lot cheaper- , then Canon has to lower prices very fast. If in our minds Canon makes incredible products (like Apple) they will be able to keep up their pricing policy.
As I wrote in another thread, it is intersting, that the US$ to € conversion rate varies between the 6RII (1:1,16!!) and the RF 135, that is about 1:1,28. Maybe because an lens is kept a lot longer, than an body.


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## xps (Nov 2, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Actually professionals do not have to pay that VAT in Germany as far as I know. They first have to pay it, but they get it back from the German IRS.
> 
> I always found it strange that tax is not included in the price in the US. You buy a can of soda for a dollar and then the cashier want $1.09


Isn´t it, that in some US states taxes vary from state to state? Maybe someone from US can tell us.


----------



## Berowne (Nov 2, 2022)

Prices for Canon EF-Glass has been up and down for quite some time. A year ago I have purchased a EF 35L Mk II for about 1500€ and now it is 1900€. The RF-L Glass is more expensive but not so much (EF 16-35/2.8 = 2150€, RF 15-25/2.8 IS = 2300€). 
The good thing is, that you can buy it, nearly all the RF-lenses are readily available. And everybody who is complaining about the high prices of the RF-System can purchase used gear, a EF 135L in good condition costs about 700-800€. This is imho completely ok.


----------



## Stig Nygaard (Nov 2, 2022)

PhotoGenerous said:


> But two years is _extremely_ fast. It was 4.5 years between the 6D and 6DII. It's the Rebel line that had a yearly release.



Keith has an overview of when cameras was released on his rumors page:








Camera and printer rumours page


Rumours, announcements and technology news and for cameras and printers. Primarily Canon and Epson, includes Nikon, Sony and others




www.northlight-images.co.uk





Yes, two years are very unusual and fast for such a camera. The 5-series (5D/R5) has 3-5 years interval of new releases.


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## Smirkie (Nov 2, 2022)

Does this mean that there will be no more firmware update for r6 mk1?


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

xps said:


> Isn´t it, that in some US states taxes vary from state to state? Maybe someone from US can tell us.


Yes, in the US sales tax is set by the state (a few have none), and in some cases counties within a state add a local tax as well. What is taxed varies as well, and where you buy something matters, too. 

So the $1 soda that @Skyscraperfan buys will cost $1.09 in New York, $1.06 in Massachusetts, and $1.00 in New Hampshire, as an example. Unless he buys the soda in a restaurant in New Hampshire, in which case it would cost $1.09. 

If he buys a $10 pair of socks in New York, he’ll pay $10.90, but in MA he’ll pay $10.00 because MA taxes articles of clothing and footwear only on the amount over $175 per item. So the manufacturer of those socks just prints $10 on the tag.


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## Chaitanya (Nov 2, 2022)

So apparently 600ex has been discontinued and EL-5 is supposed to bridge gap between 430 and EL-1. UI, buttons and battery source for both EL-1 & EL-5 are same which is a good thing.


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## jam05 (Nov 2, 2022)

NorskHest said:


>


Practicality (basics) via firmware need no cost $2500 + tax.


----------



## dsburk0203 (Nov 2, 2022)

Just sold my R6 for the Sony A7IV, based on what I am seeing here, I am not disappointed one bit.


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## jam05 (Nov 2, 2022)

notalchymy said:


> This is hands down the *Best Canon hybrid camera* for event work or social media work. Yeah the R3 and R7 maybe can compete, but either you pay $6k or get a cropped sensor.
> 
> False color?
> No Record Limit
> ...


All firmware. Any downloadable firmware update would have satisfied an R6 upgrade. Its a total waste of money. Not worth $1500 let alone $2500 + tax


----------



## jam05 (Nov 2, 2022)

Will not purchase another high end camera with these old aged image sensors. Not gonna purchase firmware for $2500. Im not that gullible. Give me some damn new hardware. Gees. All this BS firmware coding that one can simply download. Give me a damn break. All of these $1500 cameras should have first gen stacked image sensors at a minimum. We are now on generation 3. Going on 2023 and they are milking the old crap. Its not even a BSI sensor. Simply rediculous. Anyone halfway tech savy doesn't purchase firmware coding updates for $2500 + tax unless they simply dont mind throwing away moola.


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## tomislavmoze (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> All firmware. Any downloadable firmware update would have satisfied an R6 upgrade. Its a total waste of money. Not worth $1500 let alone $2500 + tax


Faster sensor, better AF cause of the faster sensor, better button layout, plus not everything is possible via firmware if there are hardware limitations and obviously there where some.I all-ready know few that will replace the R6 with the R6mk2 including me.
Even for photography 40fps is a big deal to a lot off people, not to mention video improvements...
Currently this is the best hybrid camera in the price range for sure, and defiantly all you need for 90% of todays photo and video work.


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## reef58 (Nov 2, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Business as usual...
> - Raising exaggerated expectations ( $5500 camera's features in a $3000 camera )
> - Being angry or disappointed Canon didn't meet one's pressing demand
> - Canon bashing, what else?
> The cycle is complete, only threatening to jump ship is (till now) missing.


I think the ocean is full from all of the threatened ship jumpers.


jam05 said:


> All firmware. Any downloadable firmware update would have satisfied an R6 upgrade. It's a total waste of money. Not worth $1500 let alone $2500 + tax


I think you are missing the point. If an R6 is worth $2500 why isn't the R62 worth $2500?


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## wockawocka (Nov 2, 2022)

Thanks for saving me 5 grand Canon. I knew you had my best interests at heart.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> So apparently 600ex has been discontinued and EL-5 is supposed to bridge gap between 430 and EL-1. Over UI, buttons and battery source for both EL-1 & EL-5 are same which is a good thing.


Same flash power as a 600EX and same master capabilities, so IMO a good replacement for those with a compatible camera. 

I was hoping for an EL-1 MkII with a native multifunction shoe mount. Still, the EL-5 has the same guide number, zoom range, and max power as the EL-1, but lower min power, and passive instead of active cooling. 

Personally, I tend not to use the lower power settings on my 600 flashes (if I really need to drop output, I have ND gels), and my shooting style has never caused a problem in terms of heat generation. 

I preordered an EL-5.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Will not purchase another high end camera with these old aged image sensors.


It was going to have a stacked sensor, because stacked sensors are so much cheaper to produce, right? I mean, you positively assured everyone that was the case based on your vast knowledge of sensor fabrication costs. How could Canon be so stupid as to use a much more expensive aged image sensor then a new, cheaper stacked sensor that would mean much higher profits for them?

News flash: Canon is not the stupid one here.


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## bradpaulp (Nov 2, 2022)

Ok but what does “overheat control (in movie recording) - YES” mean in the spec sheet.
This is confusing to me.
It says you can record 6 hours in 4K 30fps

So does that mean it won’t shut down after a little while asking you to let the camera cool down?


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## wockawocka (Nov 2, 2022)

TBH If they'd released it at 3500 with a BSI stacked sensor I would have bought it.

Except the general market probably isn't there. I shoot weddings professionally and can't use a form factor larger than the R5/R6 - It's just too big when you add a lens for all day use with two bodies. I expect the R5 mkii will get something like a 39mp BSI stacked and then Canon will drop a 90+ mp camera to counter the drop in R5 resolution.


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## I_Miss_Minolta (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Not stacked or even BSI. Meh. "Functions" based on firmware. Unbelieveable. Not worth $2499. Another mediocre old image sensor. Canon and Sony close out the year trying to bamboozle with firmware. The RF 135 1.8 is the only thing exciting


Speedlite bigot.


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## Jupiter_GP (Nov 2, 2022)

Since they are improving 6D, let them also listen to the needs of users. They could improve the HDMI D micro connector and give the HDMI C mini.

Still, when connecting an HDMI cable, you cannot record to cards only to an external device via HDMI. There is no problem with Sony. During transmission, I connect the HDMI to SDI converter and record in the camera as a copy and transmission. Here it is impossible for me to fail.

I wonder how fast this switching from camera to movie works.

It was best in 5DmkII. I shoot in the process, I take a picture without unnecessary switching. Now, with the solderless, it could take a picture even to jpg without stopping the movie.


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## Del Paso (Nov 2, 2022)

xps said:


> Indeed, our healthcare system in DACH (Germany, Switzerland, Austria) is very good. Maybe not efficient, especially at some hospital groups you get an extra surgical intervention if our DRG system adds some points. But for almost all treatments you do not have to pay extra and the quality is good.
> 
> The market will decide, if Canon is able to hold the prices high. If a lot of consumers and influencer think, e.g. the Sony A7 IV and their 135mm GM is better - and a lot cheaper- , then Canon has to lower prices very fast. If in our minds Canon makes incredible products (like Apple) they will be able to keep up their pricing policy.
> As I wrote in another thread, it is intersting, that the US$ to € conversion rate varies between the 6RII (1:1,16!!) and the RF 135, that is about 1:1,28. Maybe because an lens is kept a lot longer, than an body.


Do not forget France or the UK.
When my son broke his wrist (as a foreigner!) on a DH track in Fort William, Scotland, we didn't have to pay one penny !
And the first question asked wasn't about my credit card...


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## bbasiaga (Nov 2, 2022)

Pretty typical upgrade cycle. Some notable improvements, but not a clear 'must have' if you already have the R6. I think the BSI stacked sensor would have got me to upgrade, but at this price I knew it was too good to be true. 

Maybe the R5II....

-Brian


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## scyrene (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Will not purchase another high end camera with these old aged image sensors. Not gonna purchase firmware for $2500. Im not that gullible. Give me some damn new hardware. Gees. All this BS firmware coding that one can simply download. Give me a damn break. All of these $1500 cameras should have first gen stacked image sensors at a minimum. We are now on generation 3. Going on 2023 and they are milking the old crap. Its not even a BSI sensor. Simply rediculous. Anyone halfway tech savy doesn't purchase firmware coding updates for $2500 + tax unless they simply dont mind throwing away moola.


How many times do you need to repeat yourself? It's close to spamming the thread. We get it, you're upset. One post stating that would be sufficient.


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## unfocused (Nov 2, 2022)

Just curious, what happened to the digital zoom that CR Guy claimed the camera would have? Did I miss that?


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## scyrene (Nov 2, 2022)

wockawocka said:


> TBH If they'd released it at 3500 with a BSI stacked sensor I would have bought it.
> 
> Except the general market probably isn't there. I shoot weddings professionally and can't use a form factor larger than the R5/R6 - It's just too big when you add a lens for all day use with two bodies. I expect the R5 mkii will get something like a 39mp BSI stacked and then Canon will drop a 90+ mp camera to counter the drop in R5 resolution.


This is a genuine question: how would a BSI stacked sensor help with wedding photography, specifically?


----------



## tomislavmoze (Nov 2, 2022)

scyrene said:


> This is a genuine question: how would a BSI stacked sensor help with wedding photography, specifically?


Better low Light, faster read out speed would prevent banding using electronic shutter


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## bergstrom (Nov 2, 2022)

Still overheats, no Stacked sensor and ALL-I and crap HDMI. So wait for R6iii then or just accept an improved RPii


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## scyrene (Nov 2, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Better low Light, faster read out speed would prevent banding using electronic shutter


Thanks.


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## esglord (Nov 2, 2022)

Turns out it is in fact an R6 mkii and not a $2500 R3. No surprises here. Will buy one provided the low light performance remains on par with mki.


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## Johnw (Nov 2, 2022)

Another nice feature is shutter speed of 1/16000 is now available in electronic mode.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Just curious, what happened to the digital zoom that CR Guy claimed the camera would have? Did I miss that?


Bryan/TDP lists one 6DII spec as, "Digital 2x and 4x extender (JPG support only)," and under 'additional features' his preview lists, "The EOS R6 II features a Digital tele-conv menu option, with 2x or 4x settings available (for JPG images only)." No idea if that means crop and upscale or just crop.

Edit: images are cropped 2x or 4x then upscaled to 24 MP. From Canon:

Digital teleconverter: One-touch extra reach

Note the footnote: The image quality will be reduced because the image is enlarged and recorded. JPEG shooting only. The AF frame is fixed at the centre point.


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## tomislavmoze (Nov 2, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Just curious, what happened to the digital zoom that CR Guy claimed the camera would have? Did I miss that?


There is a digital zoom in 1080p video. One of the reviews shows it. I think d-preview


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Nov 2, 2022)

Ramage said:


> 5 year warranty... has IS and is not made by a Chinese lens cloner. Yep DOA for sure.



Neither Sigma, Sony or Samyang are Chinese. So what you talking about?


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## Johnw (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> All firmware. Any downloadable firmware update would have satisfied an R6 upgrade. Its a total waste of money. Not worth $1500 let alone $2500 + tax


There’s clearly more than firmware here. Imo, there are enough hardware and firmware upgrades to justify keeping it the same price. If Canon had added everything people seem to have wanted that would have probably justified a price increase. Also, the R6I has now been discounted $200 if you still prefer the original and want to pick it up as a cheaper option.


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## rpiotr01 (Nov 2, 2022)

So how are people feeling? Are we happy or upset?


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## unfocused (Nov 2, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Bryan/TDP lists one 6DII spec as, "Digital 2x and 4x extender (JPG support only)," and under 'additional features' his preview lists, "The EOS R6 II features a Digital tele-conv menu option, with 2x or 4x settings available (for JPG images only)." No idea if that means crop and upscale or just crop.
> 
> Edit: images are cropped 2x or 4x then upscaled to 24 MP. From Canon:
> 
> ...


Thanks.


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## Viggo (Nov 2, 2022)

The 135 L looks like it has my name written on it, but is the AF that much faster than the 85 L? If it is then it looks really tempting ..


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## EOS (Nov 2, 2022)

Why is it none of Canon’s mirrorless cameras have built-in GPS support when the 5D Mark IV and 7D Mark II both had it?


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## EOS (Nov 2, 2022)

I will say the full frame uncropped 4K/60 video is compelling (though we don’t know yet how bad the rolling shutter will be), at least compared to what else is out there in this price range.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

EOS said:


> Why is it none of Canon’s mirrorless cameras have built-in GPS support when the 5D Mark IV and 7D Mark II both had it?


The R3 does.


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## Johnw (Nov 2, 2022)

bradpaulp said:


> Ok but what does “overheat control (in movie recording) - YES” mean in the spec sheet.
> This is confusing to me.
> It says you can record 6 hours in 4K 30fps
> 
> So does that mean it won’t shut down after a little while asking you to let the camera cool down?



4k60 is where it still has to shut down after like 40 min.


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## Skyscraperfan (Nov 2, 2022)

All that "JPEG only" stuff is a little disappointing for me. Why can't focus stacking for example work with RAWs? A JPEG feels like throwing away the negatives.


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## Maximilian (Nov 2, 2022)

So, it seems I'll have to wait for more detailed info about and tests of that new (old tech? - whatever) sensor. 
German pricing of about 2,9 k € (incl. VAT) are not inspiring, too. 

My guts tell me, it'll take some more time and more tempting offers to draw me into the R system. 
I'm glad to give my 5D4 a few more actuations


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## HikeBike (Nov 2, 2022)

This is primarily an upgrade for video shooters. Since I shoot video only on occasion with the R6, the only features I really wish I had were the additional video modes (aperture priority, shutter priority). I still think the R6 should have gotten those modes, especially since the R has them.


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## EOS (Nov 2, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> The R3 does.


Yeah, just on the flagship camera now. 

Never personally been a fan of the big 1D-type camera bodies (even if the R3 is marginally smaller).


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

EOS said:


> Yeah, just on the flagship camera now.
> 
> Never personally been a fan of the big 1D-type camera bodies (even if the R3 is marginally smaller).


Ironic. I strongly prefer the integrated grip (I put accessory grips on my T1i/500D, 7D and 5DII before getting the 1D X), and I have no real use for built-in GPS.


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## Del Paso (Nov 2, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> So, it seems I'll have to wait for more detailed info about and tests of that new (old tech? - whatever) sensor.
> German pricing of about 2,9 k € (incl. VAT) are not inspiring, too.
> 
> My guts tell me, it'll take some more time and more tempting offers to draw me into the R system.
> I'm glad to give my 5D4 a few more actuations


I was ready to upgrade from the EOS R ( R5 )when the RF 100 macro came.
Presently, I'm also mostly using a 5 D IV, having far too many EF lenses. 
Yet, when a new interesting lens appears, like for instance a 14mm TSE, 50mm L macro or an improved 100 macro, I'll plunge !
I'd prefer a high MP body (R5 or R5 "S") for heavier cropping, so the R 6, though tempting, will not be my choice.


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## scyrene (Nov 2, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Bryan/TDP lists one 6DII spec as, "Digital 2x and 4x extender (JPG support only)," and under 'additional features' his preview lists, "The EOS R6 II features a Digital tele-conv menu option, with 2x or 4x settings available (for JPG images only)." No idea if that means crop and upscale or just crop.
> 
> Edit: images are cropped 2x or 4x then upscaled to 24 MP. From Canon:
> 
> ...


Thanks. Intriguing. I look forward to seeing examples compared to enlargements done with external software. I guess modern computing could make it slightly better than old fashioned digital zoom, but I won't hold my breath.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Thanks. Intriguing. I look forward to seeing examples compared to enlargements done with external software. I guess modern computing could make it slightly better than old fashioned digital zoom, but I won't hold my breath.


I doubt that Canon's in-camera 'digital teleconverter' will outperform Topaz Gigapixel AI.


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## splatrabbit (Nov 2, 2022)

Agreed. This forum was looking for the R3 sensor in a 6-series body. That never made sense. This is actually a R6mk2 because of what they updated. If it was priced higher than the original, I'd be disappointed. But at the same price, it's actually a legit Mark II model. Hopefully this "new" sensor has the better dynamic range than the R6 so it doesn't end up being a 6D to 6Dmk2 disappointment again. (Photo guy here, couldn't care less about video)


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## Chaitanya (Nov 2, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ironic. I strongly prefer the integrated grip (I put accessory grips on my T1i/500D, 7D and 5DII before getting the 1D X), and I have no real use for built-in GPS.


A friend of mine had 7D mk 2(he recently upgrade to R6) and he said other than out of curiosity once he never used that built-in GPS(rather preferred to use external unit) as it drained battery. Even I prefer to use either my cellphone or Garmin handheld and sync co-ords later on.



splatrabbit said:


> Agreed. This forum was looking for the R3 sensor in a 6-series body. That never made sense. This is actually a R6mk2 because of what they updated. If it was priced higher than the original, I'd be disappointed. But at the same price, it's actually a legit Mark II model. Hopefully this "new" sensor has the better dynamic range than the R6 so it doesn't end up being a 6D to 6Dmk2 disappointment again. (Photo guy here, couldn't care less about video)


Canon could have added a BSI sensor and if I remember correctly there was an interview of Canon engineer either after release of R5 or R3 stating there wont be any more Canon cameras with Front side circuitry but here we are Canon still stuck with ancient tech on their cameras while competition is offering BSI sensors.


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## splatrabbit (Nov 2, 2022)

I have no use for GPS. The only thing that data is useful for is influencers figuring out where you took the picture and over-populating once pristine areas with idiots.


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## Famateur (Nov 2, 2022)

Been a member on this site for about ten years. That's long enough to see the same patterns of prediction and response play out dozens of times. It cracks me up how some things don't change, even if many of the usernames do.

What I do know is that over that time, and despite howling and foaming at the mouth from some, Canon still rolls on, producing incredible products -- despite competition, pandemic, recessions, inflation, etc.

Brand new, higher-resolution sensor, new processor, improved Autofocus, double the max burst rate, no record limit in video, oversampled 4K, and more -- and Canon keeps the launch price the same as the camera's predecessor two years ago -- in a world of ridiculous inflation.

And people still winge and say silly things, like that it's just a firmware update. Newsflash: Frame rate is driven by speed of the sensor readout, processing power, buffer depth, and write speed. Not just firmware.

Can you imagine if three years ago, I said Canon's *6-Series* body could shoot 40 FPS silently with mild rolling shutter? That it used deep learning AF to accurately track a variety of subjects with incredible accuracy? And it would only be USD $2,500 (only $500 more than the 6DII at the time)? People would have thought I was HarryFilm (no offense, Harry )!

How quickly people forget that the 6 Series was once Canon's full frame entry tier. It just shows how incredible the R6 was to be so well equipped when it launched alongside the R5.

I love my R5, but I'm _really_ excited to tell my brother about the R6II as he's been on the fence about whether to get the R6 or the R5, price being a significant factor.

What an amazing time we live in to be so spoiled for choice with a veritable smorgasbord of incredibly capable offerings from a variety of companies.

Stepping off the soapbox now...








Fun Thought: In the spring of 2020, a 5DIV was $3,500. And you got a whopping 7 FPS.


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## Maximilian (Nov 2, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> I was ready to upgrade from the EOS R ( R5 )when the RF 100 macro came.
> Presently, I'm also mostly using a 5 D IV, having far too many EF lenses.
> Yet, when a new interesting lens appears, like for instance a 14mm TSE, 50mm L macro or an improved 100 macro, I'll plunge !
> I'd prefer a high MP body (R5 or R5 "S") for heavier cropping, so the R 6, though tempting, will not be my choice.


Fully understand! 
Personally, I like something in the MP count between the R6 II and my 5D4. 
Especially when looking at SSD memory needed and the processing speed on my PC, I do not know if a R5 would be the right tool for me. 
IMO, all R bodies cost too much for what they individually offer, esp. R5 and both R6. 
Maybe my opinion will change by time, getting more and more used to the new pricing Canon does. And tech will also continue to develop.
Until then, I am happy with what I have.


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## Maximilian (Nov 2, 2022)

Famateur said:


> Been a member on this site for about ten years. That's long enough to see the same patterns of prediction and response play out dozens of times. It cracks me up how some things don't change, even if many of the usernames do.


*LOL* Same impression here 


> What I do know is that over that time, and despite howling and foaming at the mouth from some, Canon still rolls on, producing incredible products -- despite competition, pandemic, recessions, inflation, etc.


Funny, that Canon still exists. 
It seems they're doing something right, don't they?


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## Rivermist (Nov 2, 2022)

This is the camera that will take folks like me, still squeezing the last drops out of the RP, to an IBIS camera that is a fitting upgrade at an (almost) affordable price. I can understand current R6 owners discussing whether the upgrade is worth it, but from an RP this is a compelling story. I was eyeing the R6 for a while as some pre-owned were hitting sub-$2,000 prices, but I think the extra $500 (maybe less with Canon fidelity prices?) is worth it for the extra MP, further improvement to autofocus, extended battery life, etc. etc.
As for the 135mm, I have been waiting for almost 20 years for an IS 135mm prime, but the early leaks on this new lens had me worried that the 1.8 aperture would result in a huge lens. This new version has an 82mm filter and weighs 935 grams, versus the 72mm / 750 grams of the EF 2.0, a very acceptable step up for the increased aperture and IS.


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## kafala (Nov 2, 2022)

I currently have the A7iv. I would get the R6 II because it pretty much has everything I want. However, I'm not a fan of canon's rf 1.8 lenses with their garbage stm motor for video work. If I want to use a gimbal, I have to use their big bazooka zooms. Their 1.2 Primes are terrible for video because of the focus breathing and Focus breathing compensation only works on the zooms. Plus Sony gm lenses are cheaper since I qualify for the edu discount. I can also get Sigma and Tamron lenses for cheap without sacrificing much quality. Might just wait until the R5ii and the 35mm 1.4 L or 35mm 1.2 lens comes out since that's what I'm waiting for.


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## Skyscraperfan (Nov 2, 2022)

The past view years might have seen a lot of progress for photographers who want to shoot fast moving subjects and need a lot of frames and a goof autofocus, but for people who just take photos of skyscrapers, those new cameras sadly do not bring a lot of advantage besides IBIS. For the photos I take, cameras already seem to have peaked many years ago. Only better low might performance brings a visible advantage for me, but not much has happened at that front. That may be disappointing, but on the other hand it also is good for me. My very old camera still is competitive when it comes to taking photos of skyscrapers. Someone with an R3 will not have any benefit compared to me. In the past it was always very annoying for me when photography advanced so much within a few years that most of my past photos did no longer meet the current technical standards, but that is no longer the case. As long as I use good glass, I might be able to use my "vintage" camera for another ten years.


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## amorse (Nov 2, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I doubt that Canon's in-camera 'digital teleconverter' will outperform Topaz Gigapixel AI.


Agreed - honestly I've been pleasantly surprised by Adobe's super resolution provided that you run it on the raw file prior to editing outside the raw processor. Better on some images than others


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

Rivermist said:


> I can understand current R6 owners discussing whether the upgrade is worth it...


I doubt it's intended to be. People seem to think Canon should develop each camera's in-line successor to be a compelling upgrade for current owners and are surprised when that's not the case. Especially not in this case where the cycle time was <2.5 years. 

In general, it seems upgrades are intended to attract users of lower-tier bodies or in-line bodies that are 2-3 iterations back. At this point, Canon is still trying to move their DSLR user base (which is very large) to MILCs. Given that, this camera is likely intended to appeal to 6DII and 5DIII users.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> ... but for people who just take photos of skyscrapers, those new cameras sadly do not bring a lot of advantage besides IBIS.


Somehow, I doubt Canon feels they're missing out on a large market there.


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## NorskHest (Nov 2, 2022)

Ramage said:


> 5 year warranty... has IS and is not made by a Chinese lens cloner. Yep DOA for sure.


Would you spend that type of money on a 135?


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Nov 2, 2022)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Neither Sigma, Sony or Samyang are Chinese. So what you talking about?


Thanks, your right Samyang is South Korean. I am sure you understood what I mean by cloner. If not that's OK.

Cheers


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## Johnw (Nov 2, 2022)

Although I'm sure the base IQ will be better than the EF, the one downside I would note with the RF 135 is that it appears that it is not compatible with teleconverters given that there is no mention of this in the description, whereas the EF version does support them.


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## Wowmail (Nov 2, 2022)

I'm an old AP photographer. Took my F-1 all over the world. Got into digital last year, picked up an RP , and a battery grip ... 
IT's a bit heavy for this old bird, especially since I invested in superior lenses. My Daughter LOVES my RP, so BOOOM! It's Hers, I preordered! Now my Camera will do my lenses justice.

Canon R 50 1.2L, 85.12 L, 70 - 200 2.8 L
And a few EF lenses.


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## koenkooi (Nov 2, 2022)

Johnw said:


> 4k60 is where it still has to shut down after like 40 min.


The initial reviews with pre-production units (dpreview TV, Cameralabs, proAV etc.) showed that it could record a lot longer at room temp, past 2 hours in one case. I'm curious how it would hold up outdoors at 30+ degrees Celsius, I bet the 40 minutes isn't about room temp


----------



## On1fan (Nov 2, 2022)

Well... after watching several videos, I'm torn again. Definitely dissapointed about the sensor... but oh well.

Was looking hard at the A7IV over the original R6, but now I'm not so sure.

A7IV: Better dynamic range (Still?), Dual-ish ISO
R6II: No 4k60 Crop, 12/40 Stills

I think the clincher for me will be whether the wide angle wobble in the Cannon is gone or not, and how it compares to the A7IV in low light.
Given that the new sensor is faster, I think Canon has the advantage, but I will wait for comparisons (which will be inevitable over the coming weeks)


----------



## wockawocka (Nov 2, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Just curious, what happened to the digital zoom that CR Guy claimed the camera would have? Did I miss that?


Better High Iso = higher shutter speed.

If you check out the high ISO raws on DPreview of the R3 even 6400 is really clean. Compared to the R6 it's about a stop - two stops better than the R5 and R6.


----------



## koenkooi (Nov 2, 2022)

Rivermist said:


> This is the camera that will take folks like me, still squeezing the last drops out of the RP, to an IBIS camera that is a fitting upgrade at an (almost) affordable price. I can understand current R6 owners discussing whether the upgrade is worth it, but from an RP this is a compelling story. [...]


The R6II fixes a large number of annoyances I have been running into with my R5. The lack of a CFe cardslot and the lack of a control dial on top are the things keeping me from exchanging my R5 for an R6II. I hadn't expected to plan for replacing my R5 so soon, but I'm excited to see what Canon does for its successor 2 years from now!

Things like the 5 second pre-record in movie mode, UVC support so it will "just work" as a webcam, tethered control using your phone, the R3/R7 AF improvements, focus breathing correction make it a less frustrating camera. The annoying thing is that those are pretty much all software features, so Canon could add them to the R5 if they wanted to....


----------



## HMC11 (Nov 2, 2022)

Johnw said:


> Although I'm sure the base IQ will be better than the EF, the one downside I would note with the RF 135 is that it appears that it is not compatible with teleconverters given that there is no mention of this in the description, whereas the EF version does support them.


Genuine curiosity - what is the use case for using a teleconverter on the RF 135mm? Wouldn't the RF 70-200L F2.8 make more sense compared to the RF 135 (which becomes the equivalent of 189mm F2.5 for the 1.4x) or the RF100-500 (270mm F3.6 for the 2.0x) in terms of versatility, total cost and final IQ (I am assuming that the usual loss of IQ happens with teleconverters)?


----------



## koenkooi (Nov 2, 2022)

On1fan said:


> Well... after watching several videos, I'm torn again. Definitely dissapointed about the sensor... but oh well.
> 
> Was looking hard at the A7IV over the original R6, but now I'm not so sure.
> 
> ...


You can see the wobble in the DPreviewTV review and I think they also mention it still being there.


----------



## Johnw (Nov 2, 2022)

HMC11 said:


> or the RF100-500 (270mm F3.6 for the 2.0x) in terms of versatility, total cost and final IQ (I am assuming that the usual loss of IQ happens with teleconverters)?



Certainly the 100-500L would be better in terms of versatility. I still like to get lenses that support TCs when I can simply because it's cheaper to extend a lens then buy another lens. If I could get a 270 f/3.5 with the 135 for example, that would be a lot cheaper than the RF 300 f/2.8 for example, though yes the IQ would be worse as a tradeoff for that $ savings.


----------



## SHAMwow (Nov 2, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> The past view years might have seen a lot of progress for photographers who want to shoot fast moving subjects and need a lot of frames and a goof autofocus, but for people who just take photos of skyscrapers, those new cameras sadly do not bring a lot of advantage besides IBIS. For the photos I take, cameras already seem to have peaked many years ago. Only better low might performance brings a visible advantage for me, but not much has happened at that front. That may be disappointing, but on the other hand it also is good for me. My very old camera still is competitive when it comes to taking photos of skyscrapers. Someone with an R3 will not have any benefit compared to me. In the past it was always very annoying for me when photography advanced so much within a few years that most of my past photos did no longer meet the current technical standards, but that is no longer the case. As long as I use good glass, I might be able to use my "vintage" camera for another ten years.


I think that's just a sign of the times though. Almost any modern camera can take equally good landscape photos, including your phone. Camera bodies need to target and leverage what the phones can't do well, which is what has really happened. That's not to say that landscapes off my R5 aren't better than my iPhone, but yeah.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

Johnw said:


> Certainly the 100-500L would be better in terms of versatility. I still like to get lenses that support TCs when I can simply because it's cheaper to extend a lens then buy another lens. If I could get a 270 f/3.5 with the 135 for example, that would be a lot cheaper than the RF 300 f/2.8 for example, though yes the IQ would be worse as a tradeoff for that $ savings.


There's a convenience factor, too. Sometimes I mainly need one set of focal lengths but might need something longer on a particular outing. Bring a 70-200/2.8 and a 2x TC is more convenient that bringing a 70-200/2.8 and a 100-400/500. But with my RF 70-200/2.8, the TC isn't an option. Still, with RF lenses I can fit the 24-105/4L, 70-200/2.8L and 100-500L (along with the R3) in my Lowepro Fastpack 300, but only because of the smaller size of the RF 70-200 (to take the EF 70-200/2.8 II and 100-400L, I needed to bring the larger Fastpack 400.


----------



## On1fan (Nov 2, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> You can see the wobble in the DPreviewTV review and I think they also mention it still being there.


Yeah... just watched it.

That's too bad.


----------



## skrubol (Nov 2, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Same flash power as a 600EX and same master capabilities, so IMO a good replacement for those with a compatible camera.
> 
> I was hoping for an EL-1 MkII with a native multifunction shoe mount. Still, the EL-5 has the same guide number, zoom range, and max power as the EL-1


I think the max guide number in meters might be a misprint. The max GN in feet is 169.9, which translates to about 52m.

Same master capabilities for radio. If you're like me, with a few old optical only flashes though, makes an upgrade a little tougher.
I did have a shoot (in the family, I'm not a pro,) recently where I was using high speed fill flash and cycle time on my old 580ex was really a limitation. Missed several shots because of it, and the EL-1 is out of my budget, so this one is looking interesting..


----------



## rpiotr01 (Nov 2, 2022)

On1fan said:


> Well... after watching several videos, I'm torn again. Definitely dissapointed about the sensor... but oh well.
> 
> Was looking hard at the A7IV over the original R6, but now I'm not so sure.
> 
> ...


What's Wide Angle wobble, if you wouldn't mind sharing? thanks.


----------



## tomislavmoze (Nov 2, 2022)

kafala said:


> I currently have the A7iv. I would get the R6 II because it pretty much has everything I want. However, I'm not a fan of canon's rf 1.8 lenses with their garbage stm motor for video work. If I want to use a gimbal, I have to use their big bazooka zooms. Their 1.2 Primes are terrible for video because of the focus breathing and Focus breathing compensation only works on the zooms. Plus Sony gm lenses are cheaper since I qualify for the edu discount. I can also get Sigma and Tamron lenses for cheap without sacrificing much quality. Might just wait until the R5ii and the 35mm 1.4 L or 35mm 1.2 lens comes out since that's what I'm waiting for.


I think Peter McKinnon mention in his video that the focus breathing compensation currently works only with 135/1.8 on a preproduction unit and will work with all of the RF lenses with the next firmware update.


----------



## On1fan (Nov 2, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> What's Wide Angle wobble, if you wouldn't mind sharing? thanks.


In video, with a wide angle lens... whether vloging or following somone up close... with IBIS turned on... the background wobbles around, but it's differnt than camera shake (with IBIS Off).

Pretty much the only solution is IBIS off with a gimbal, but that is a bulky solution.
The Sony's don't seem to have the wobble issue from what I can tell.


----------



## AlanF (Nov 2, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1733214-REG/canon_eos_r6_mark_ii.html
> 
> BH Charges 2499 TAX INCLUDED!
> Dollar/Euro rate is 1:1
> So again? WTF?


Again, it's been posted many times that B&H pay the tax as a customer discount, and I think it might be tied to using their Payboo card.

Edit: @neuroanatomist beat me to answering and confirmed the Payboo.


----------



## Johnw (Nov 2, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Again, it's been posted many times that B&H pay the tax as a customer discount, and I think it might be tied to using their Payboo card.



It is, if I put the R6 II into my cart at B&H, my sales tax is $222 additional over the $2500 base price since I do not have their card.


----------



## Wowmail (Nov 2, 2022)

I'm in California. Payboo saved me 9%. I pay it off when item ships .. and its like a freaking discount.
If I was In a lower tax state, Id simply use one of my money back cards. 

YMMV

Hope that helps.


----------



## pzyber (Nov 2, 2022)

And the prices here in Sweden are ridiculous yet another time...

US prices (excl VAT):
Canon RF 135mm f/1.8 L IS USM $2 099
Sony FE 135mm f/1.8 GM $2 098

Swedish prices (incl VAT):
Canon RF 135/1,8 L IS USM 32 290 SEK
Sony FE 135/1,8 GM 20 990 SEK


----------



## AlanF (Nov 2, 2022)

BurningPlatform said:


> Maybe Canon did the prices for UK while Truss was still PM.


That was, most fortunately, too short a time for much to happen. The price gouging in the UK has been going on since Brexit. Now, if more people in the UK shot Canon then perhaps we would renegotiate.


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## danfaz (Nov 2, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> So how are people feeling? Are we happy or upset?


I'm happy about the 135!


----------



## Wowmail (Nov 2, 2022)

pzyber said:


> And the prices here in Sweden are ridiculous yet another time...
> 
> US prices (excl VAT):
> Canon RF 135mm f/1.8 L IS USM $2 099
> ...


Wow I hear you, maybe it's cheaper to fly to New York. Do they hit you for VAT when you re-enter the Country?


----------



## Wowmail (Nov 2, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> So how are people feeling? Are we happy or upset?


Delighted!


----------



## pzyber (Nov 2, 2022)

Wowmail said:


> Wow I hear you, maybe it's cheaper to fly to New York. Do they hit you for VAT when you re-enter the Country?


Almost, at least it would be a nice trip  And they do.


----------



## AJ (Nov 2, 2022)

Someone probably posted this already, but TDP has a review up of a pre-production 135/1.8








Canon RF 135mm F1.8 L IS USM Lens Review


Is the Canon RF 135mm F1.8 L IS USM Lens right for you? Learn all you need to know in The-Digital-Picture.com's review!




www.the-digital-picture.com




Just in case you haven't seen this yet.


----------



## rpiotr01 (Nov 2, 2022)

On1fan said:


> In video, with a wide angle lens... whether vloging or following somone up close... with IBIS turned on... the background wobbles around, but it's differnt than camera shake (with IBIS Off).
> 
> Pretty much the only solution is IBIS off with a gimbal, but that is a bulky solution.
> The Sony's don't seem to have the wobble issue from what I can tell.


Thank you, that's helpful! Trying to sort out issues that are video related and photo related. 

Someone above had a really good post about still photography tech reaching a sort of plateau. The 5DIII sensor I currently use is plenty for my needs, but there are things about the mirrorless bodies - focus peaking in the EVF, IBIS, lighter weight, wifi - that would certainly improve the user experience so it's all very attractive to me. I'm not at all into the video stuff, but that seems to be where a lot of the new tech is focused so in a sense I'm buying into a new system but only using half of it.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

skrubol said:


> I think the max guide number in meters might be a misprint. The max GN in feet is 169.9, which translates to about 52m.


The Canon USA specifications section states, "The maximum Guide No. is approximately 196.9 ft./60m at ISO 100 and 200mm flash coverage." Canon EU lists GN 60 m. So, I'm pretty sure the 169.9 ft GN is a misprint – whoever wrote the intro paragraph for the Canon USA page just transposed 196.9 to 169.9.



skrubol said:


> Same master capabilities for radio. If you're like me, with a few old optical only flashes though, makes an upgrade a little tougher.
> I did have a shoot (in the family, I'm not a pro,) recently where I was using high speed fill flash and cycle time on my old 580ex was really a limitation. Missed several shots because of it, and the EL-1 is out of my budget, so this one is looking interesting..


If you really need to integrate an older, optically triggered Speedlite into an RT setup you can use a Sonia Green optical trigger, although that requires manual mode (no E-TTL pre flash). I use the built-in optical trigger on my PCB Einstein monolight and it works fine (I had the PocketWizard MC2 radio for that, but the whole MiniTT1/TT5/MC2 setup was kludgy, and I have been much happier with Canon's RT system).

The rapid-fire of the EL-5 will be nice for on-camera flash. With off-camera, I've never needed to trigger that fast as those are more controlled setups for me (studio portraits).

I'm curious to try out the Custom Flash settings linked to C1/C2/C3 on the camera. Nice to see features like that enabled by the multifunction shoe.

Even more useful for me (and another improvement over the EL-1) is the menu direct button on the EL-5, where one press brings up the flash control settings on the camera LCD. The ST-E10 has it, and it's very convenient for me since I find it easier to control flash group settings via the camera (though like the EL-1, the EL-5 also has a more useful display that mimics the camera flash control screens).

Looks like March 30, 2023 is the expected delivery date for the EL-5.


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## HikeBike (Nov 2, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> So how are people feeling? Are we happy or upset?


Happy I don't feel the need to upgrade from the R6.


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## Hector1970 (Nov 2, 2022)

What a cringe inducing ad. We’re the drone shots using the R6 II. Must have been a big rig. The 4 people looked totally unprepared for the weather in the Faroes. No rain jackets , just fancy down jackets that are useless in the rain. Quite a beautiful and rugged place (and quite dangerous (windy , wet and lots of drops of 1000 feet). Was probably never going to get the R6 II as the R5 is still superb. That ad alone would put me off. Seems to be only selling video, no stills shown. It’s a bit of a boring update.


----------



## Foxeslink (Nov 2, 2022)

I don't understand you guys. This is not an upgrade for the R5. R5 is better in almost every aspect. I don't even know why R5 users are trashtalking here. This camera solved a lot of things that R6 had. Yes, if you only do stills it's not worth the upgrade, if you do more video maybe you can consider the upgrade on the eventuallity you are using the new things R6II comes with.

Great upgrade for the guys like me who own an R and do still and video like 50/50%. I love it! It's seems an amazing camera. Will do wonders with my RF50 1.2 and future 24-70 2.8


----------



## entoman (Nov 2, 2022)

So the "digital teleconverter" was just a rumour?

I can't see any reference to it in the specs, or have I missed something?


----------



## roby17269 (Nov 2, 2022)

Well, I've put my money where my mouth is and I have indeed pre-ordered the RF 135mm this morning (took me a while since Adorama web site had some issues). Now I have to wait till beginning of 2023... 

As per the R6 mkII... I guess I will need to enjoy some crow since it does not have a stacked sensor. I am sure Canon will sell a lot of them but I cannot avoid feeling underwhelmed by this release. Not a big deal since I am not part of its target market anyways, but I do wonder how well it will fare against the A7 IV


----------



## SteveC (Nov 2, 2022)

xps said:


> Isn´t it, that in some US states taxes vary from state to state? Maybe someone from US can tell us.


State taxes do indeed vary from state to state, and the structure varies too. Basically there are three kinds of taxes (sales, income, and property) and each state has their own mix. Some states don't have sales tax but have higher income and/or property tax. Mine has a fairly high sales tax but low property tax, with about average income tax rate.

But it's worse than that...in some states, it makes a big difference where you are, because local governments can *also* impose sales and property taxes. You can cross a street here and be dealing with a different sales tax rate because you're now in a different city. Or county. In fact my state is notorious for being difficult for online retailers to figure the correct tax...because it depends on your address.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

entoman said:


> So the "digital teleconverter" was just a rumour?
> 
> I can't see any reference to it in the specs, or have I missed something?


You have missed something.

Images are cropped 2x or 4x then upscaled to 24 MP.

From Canon: Digital teleconverter: One-touch extra reach

Note the footnote: The image quality will be reduced because the image is enlarged and recorded. JPEG shooting only. The AF frame is fixed at the centre point.


----------



## tomislavmoze (Nov 2, 2022)

Foxeslink said:


> I don't understand you guys. This is not an upgrade for the R5. R5 is better in almost every aspect. I don't even know why R5 users are trashtalking here. This camera solved a lot of things that R6 had. Yes, if you only do stills it's not worth the upgrade, if you do more video maybe you can consider the upgrade on the eventuallity you are using the new things R6II comes with.
> 
> Great upgrade for the guys like me who own an R and do still and video like 50/50%. I love it! It's seems an amazing camera. Will do wonders with my RF50 1.2 and future 24-70 2.8


Well I own both R5 and R6 and I preordered the R6mk2 right away...It is an amazing release in so many ways it outperforms even the R5. 
I see a great tool that will make my life much easier while working, than the R6 and in some ways than the R5
I've noticed People here tend to have really unrealistic expectations...


----------



## Del Paso (Nov 2, 2022)

SteveC said:


> State taxes do indeed vary from state to state, and the structure varies too. Basically there are three kinds of taxes (sales, income, and property) and each state has their own mix. Some states don't have sales tax but have higher income and/or property tax. Mine has a fairly high sales tax but low property tax, with about average income tax rate.
> 
> But it's worse than that...in some states, it makes a big difference where you are, because local governments can *also* impose sales and property taxes. You can cross a street here and be dealing with a different sales tax rate because you're now in a different city. Or county. In fact my state is notorious for being difficult for online retailers to figure the correct tax...because it depends on your address.


So, next time when I'll be visiting the United States, I'll have to pay more attention to where and what I'll buy...
Anyway, buying a camera in the US, I mean legally!, isn't interesting for us French: US Price + 20% VAT + approximately 16% custom duties.
But for outdoor clothing, Lie Nielsen woodworking tools, below the import tax limit...


----------



## mxwphoto (Nov 2, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Do not forget France or the UK.
> When my son broke his wrist (as a foreigner!) on a DH track in Fort William, Scotland, we didn't have to pay one penny !
> And the first question asked wasn't about my credit card...


They don't ask about your credit card first either here in the US. They just don't tell you the price of treatment and send you a massive bill afterwards.


----------



## twoheadedboy (Nov 2, 2022)

Well, there has to be an R5 MK II next year, right? Because the fact that it doesn't have a hotshoe is becoming a huge problem, not to mention some of the video issues that have been subsequently enhanced in much-cheaper bodies that have been released.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> Well, there has to be an R5 MK II next year, right? Because the fact that it doesn't have a hotshoe is becoming a huge problem...


I'm pretty sure the R5 has a hotshoe.  So far, there are only three Canon products which are not compatible with the old 5-pin shoe – the ST-E10 and the EL-5 (the latter won't even be available until the end of March 2023) and the DM-E1D mic. The R5C has the new multifunction shoe, and that's the intended audience for accessories like the Tascam XLR adapter and Canon's shotgun mic.


----------



## entoman (Nov 2, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> You have missed something.
> 
> Images are cropped 2x or 4x then upscaled to 24 MP.
> 
> ...


Thanks. It would be interested to see how the results compare to Topaz Gigapixel and similar post process editors.


----------



## HikeBike (Nov 2, 2022)

I have to say, I'm rather impressed that this 24 MP non-stacked sensor has a read-out speed fast enough to support 40 FPS. I'm clearly no expert, but I really thought a stacked sensor would have been needed to achieve this rate at this resolution.


----------



## Marco Birri (Nov 2, 2022)

Johnw said:


> Another nice feature is shutter speed of 1/16000 is now available in electronic mode.


Strangely, on of the YouTube previewers, Manny Ortiz, said he would have loved to get 1/16000 on electronic shutter, but it maxed out at 1/8000. Meaning the specs sheet has better specs than the beta cameras they previewed.


----------



## Del Paso (Nov 2, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> They don't ask about your credit card first either here in the US. They just don't tell you the price of treatment and send you a massive bill afterwards.


This was not my experience in a desert hospital, long time ago, when I needed a suture removal. Amex? MC? Visa? Yet the bill was humane ($150). And the staff was extremely friendly, the doc even offered me an unaccompanied test ride in his brand-new Grand Cherokee which I had admired through the window !!!
I was flabbergasted (just wanted to use this cute so-british sounding adjective...)


----------



## navastronia (Nov 2, 2022)

Marco Birri said:


> Strangely, on of the YouTube previewers, Manny Ortiz, said he would have loved to get 1/16000 on electronic shutter, but it maxed out at 1/8000. Meaning the specs sheet has better specs than the beta cameras they previewed.



It being 1/16000 makes this a potential upgrade for me


----------



## scyrene (Nov 2, 2022)

AlanF said:


> That was, most fortunately, too short a time for much to happen. The price gouging in the UK has been going on since Brexit. Now, if more people in the UK shot Canon then perhaps we would renegotiate.


You need to buy more of their products! ;p


----------



## definedphotography (Nov 2, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> Well, there has to be an R5 MK II next year, right? Because the fact that it doesn't have a hotshoe is becoming a huge problem



Pretty sure my R5 has a hotshoe. Not sure what I've been attaching my strobe trigger to otherwise.
I'm guessing there will be an R5 II announced around this time next year - release early 2024.

The R6 II looks like a nice replacement for my 5D mkIV. The R6 just didn't quite cut it.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

navastronia said:


> It being 1/16000 makes this a potential upgrade for me


It's nice, but for me not that meaningful (not that I'm in the market for an R6II). One stop over the standard 1/8000 doesn't make a big difference for me, but the 1/64000 s on the R3 is meaningful because it now I don't need to use the 3-stop ND on f/1.2-1/4 lenses for outdoor portraits.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 2, 2022)

entoman said:


> Thanks. It would be interested to see how the results compare to Topaz Gigapixel and similar post process editors.


Is there an echo in here?


----------



## entoman (Nov 2, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Is there an echo in here?


Yes I think so... so... so... so... so...


----------



## danfaz (Nov 2, 2022)

HikeBike said:


> I have to say, I'm rather impressed that this 24 MP non-stacked sensor has a read-out speed fast enough to support 40 FPS. I'm clearly no expert, but I really thought a stacked sensor would have been needed to achieve this rate at this resolution.


And some complainers say the R6II is nothing but firmware updates. SMH


----------



## dlee13 (Nov 2, 2022)

Emyr Evans said:


> 135mm in the UK is £2167 before VAT.
> 
> That's $2490 US. So Canon have added $390 (£340) additional Canon Tax for the SAME lens. That's a whopping +15% Canon Tax in the UK.
> 
> No thanks. Other camera companies simply don't do this - Fuji for example.


You can’t use US price as the base though, the lenses aren’t even manufactured in the US and they are making a way bigger profit than that. For example the 135GM from Sony is $2098 USD and the Canon RF 135 is $2099 USD. Now in Australia, the 135GM goes for as cheap as $2300 AUD but the Canon is selling at $3969. Both of these include 10% GST so either Sony is committing so very major tax fraud (unlikely) or Canon is pricing their stuff very fairly in the US and really milking everyone outside the US for all they have!


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## entoman (Nov 2, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> You can’t use US price as the base though, the lenses aren’t even manufactured in the US and they are making a way bigger profit than that. For example the 135GM from Sony is $2098 USD and the Canon RF 135 is $2099 USD. Now in Australia, the 135GM goes for as cheap as $2300 AUD but the Canon is selling at $3969. Both of these include 10% GST so either Sony is committing so very major tax fraud (unlikely) or Canon is pricing their stuff very fairly in the US and really milking everyone outside the US for all they have!


Maybe you should consider that the US is the biggest market. In countries such as UK (where I live) distributors and dealers simply don't have the bulk purchasing power available in the US market. Consequently I usually purchase grey market from HK, although I make exceptions where savings are minimal (such as my RF 100-400mm just purchased in the UK).


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## reef58 (Nov 2, 2022)

entoman said:


> Maybe you should consider that the US is the biggest market. In countries such as UK (where I live) distributors and dealers simply don't have the bulk purchasing power available in the US market. Consequently I usually purchase grey market from HK, although I make exceptions where savings are minimal (such as my RF 100-400mm just purchased in the UK).


The USD is at a very high level right now compared to the Yen.


----------



## drisley (Nov 2, 2022)

Ramage said:


> 5 year warranty... has IS and is not made by a Chinese lens cloner. Yep DOA for sure.


I shot as a pro for Canon for 15 years and the RF prices make these lenses untouchable for me. I'd get the Sigma instead! 1/3 the price, 7 year warranty vs only 1 year for Canon lenses in Canada.


----------



## Bonich (Nov 2, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> And VAT is about 20% in Europe.
> Free (almost...) healthcare in Europe has a price.
> I'd rather pay more for a new camera every few years...


Healthcare is not paid by tax, we have to pay into a different system (from Germany)


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## entoman (Nov 2, 2022)

drisley said:


> I shot as a pro for Canon for 15 years and the RF prices make these lenses untouchable for me. I'd get the Sigma instead! 1/3 the price, 7 year warranty vs only 1 year for Canon lenses in Canada.


TBH, long warranties are of questionable value - if anything goes wrong with a camera or lens, it's usually either DOA or is discovered within the first couple of weeks. Things seldom wear out, and they only usually break if the item gets dropped, immersed or otherwise abused, in which case the warranty is invalid anyway.

I do agree that RF prices are very high, but Canon glass is superbly engineered and the build quality is industry-leading. It would be nice to have RF mount independent glass from Sigma and Tamron, but don't expect it to happen for another year or two...


----------



## Marco Birri (Nov 2, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> You can’t use US price as the base though, the lenses aren’t even manufactured in the US and they are making a way bigger profit than that. For example the 135GM from Sony is $2098 USD and the Canon RF 135 is $2099 USD. Now in Australia, the 135GM goes for as cheap as $2300 AUD but the Canon is selling at $3969. Both of these include 10% GST so either Sony is committing so very major tax fraud (unlikely) or Canon is pricing their stuff very fairly in the US and really milking everyone outside the US for all they have!


Canon is already giving Canadians a good rebate on the R6 Mark II. canon.ca has an MSRP of 3499$ for the R6 and 3299$ for the R6 Mark II


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## Jonathan Thill (Nov 2, 2022)

drisley said:


> I shot as a pro for Canon for 15 years and the RF prices make these lenses untouchable for me. I'd get the Sigma instead! 1/3 the price, 7 year warranty vs only 1 year for Canon lenses in Canada.


To each their own. I do not use 3rd party lenses so the price difference is meaningless from system to system. Good 1st party glass is always going to be expensive because unlike Camera bodies lenses are long term investments.

I was able to recoup much of the cost I paid when I sold my Canon EF collection to move to RF glass. 

I also find the RF STM glass that my wife uses with her R7 is not bad at all. The little RF 100-400 really surprised me. Not as nice the 100-500 but so light and sharp.


----------



## Kit. (Nov 2, 2022)

rpiotr01 said:


> So how are people feeling? Are we happy or upset?


Preordered for my wife. Her 7D2 conveniently needs a replacement.



koenkooi said:


> tethered control using your phone,


What's wrong with in on R5? It seemed to work last time I stumbled upon it.


----------



## dtaylor (Nov 2, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> Sensor is a disapointment(if it indeed is old design), seems like Canons castration fetish was strong with this one. While El-5 and 135 are quite interesting.
> 
> Edit: EL-5 with Li-Ion battery pack and undercutting 600ex seems like a great option for cameras with new hot shoe.


The performance matters. The engineering to get there typically does not. BSI never made much of a difference in FF sensors. Stacked sensors increase readout/processing speed, but this camera is delivering 40 fps e-shutter and 4k60 FF oversampled from 6k using a FSI sensor. It's very competitive with the other cameras in its segment regardless of chip fabrication differences.


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## Johnw (Nov 2, 2022)

Foxeslink said:


> This is not an upgrade for the R5. R5 is better in almost every aspect.



I’d say it depends on your workflow.

Faster FPS and faster max shutter speed in electronic mode, and longer recording time in 4k60 would seem to be upgrades over the R5 for me. Of course not everyone will use those features, and some people need more MP. In most respects the R5 is still better of course.


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## Jonathan Thill (Nov 2, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> You can’t use US price as the base though, the lenses aren’t even manufactured in the US and they are making a way bigger profit than that. For example the 135GM from Sony is $2098 USD and the Canon RF 135 is $2099 USD. Now in Australia, the 135GM goes for as cheap as $2300 AUD but the Canon is selling at $3969. Both of these include 10% GST so either Sony is committing so very major tax fraud (unlikely) or Canon is pricing their stuff very fairly in the US and really milking everyone outside the US for all they have!


Again, in Australia you are at the mercy of the increased cost of Canon glass and bodies because they only offer 5 year warranties. Sony offers a 2 years warranty. 

If you were to buy the RF 135 from the US with Australian dollars it would cost you $3303.95 at the current exchange rate and would have no Australian warranty. Yes $665 is a lot to pay for an extra 3 years of warranty but still comparing US pricing to Australian is not really apples to apples because of the extra warranty. 

Here in Canada the Canon RF 135 in Canada costs $2849.99 CDN before taxes if I was to buy it from the US at the current exchange rate = $2099 USD to CDN = $2877.21 so we are saving a little in Canada over buying in the US. Also many of the US retailers are no longer shipping some items to Canada addresses. 

Still just a 1 year warranty in Canada and here in BC you can add 12% to the $2849.99 = 

*$3191.98 out the door.*


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## Del Paso (Nov 2, 2022)

Bonich said:


> Healthcare is not paid by tax, we have to pay into a different system (from Germany)


Right, but indirectly, many structures are co-financed by the state, or by local structures which benefit from tax-revenues.


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## jam05 (Nov 2, 2022)

danfaz said:


> And some complainers say the R6II is nothing but firmware updates. SMH


That's all it is. Complete firmware updates. An antique image sensor that is not even a BSI CMOS. A plain CMOS sensor. If you're impressed with firmware coding and 40fps electronic shutter only, waste your money. Any tech savy person knows the difference betweeen hardware and firmware. Heck Nikon did a recent firmware update to its Z9 and stated that its a entirely new camera.


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## Johnw (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Any tech savy person knows the difference betweeen hardware and firmware.



Very true, that’s why for example as a software dev it’s 100% transparent to me that you are full of shit.


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## jam05 (Nov 2, 2022)

Nikon updated it's Z9 and added over 20 new features. Basically a new camera. Canon throws out less than a handfull and charges over $2900 + tax cuz they throw in an old sensor with a few more pixels. Such BS.


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## jam05 (Nov 2, 2022)

Johnw said:


> Very true, that’s why for example as a software dev it’s 100% transparent to me that you are full of shit.


Software isn't firmware. Dont be an idiot


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## Johnw (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Software isn't firmware. Dont be an idiot



You should stop digging. 

Firmware is a deployment channel for software written in exactly the same way as software you use on your phone or desktop.


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## mxwphoto (Nov 2, 2022)

To all those who complain about the camera's spec sheet not being up to par/expectations ergo "I will sell off all my Canon gear at a discount and spend a ton of money to buy the other brand's replacement!", please take a deep breath, go out, find some inspiration and shoot interesting photos or video.

Photography and film have been around for over a hundred years and it has always been about the stunning resulting product be it subject, the decisive moment, the grandeur, etc etc. It has never been about what camera was used.

Old pros sure as heck didn't have the spray and pray 40fps or whatnot nor the dynamic range of modern sensors. Heck, lots were even shot on manual focus! It took experience and skill back then to actually learn and shoot photos, hence why only select few are photographers.

Not my pictures:


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## rpiotr01 (Nov 2, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> View attachment 206128


Imagine how good this photo could've been with one of them Sony sensors, they could've lifted the shadows 10 stops, revealing an old shoe hanging from the rafters. Such a shame!


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## Czardoom (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> That's all it is. Complete firmware updates. An antique image sensor that is not even a BSI CMOS. A plain CMOS sensor. If you're impressed with firmware coding and 40fps electronic shutter only, waste your money. Any tech savy person knows the difference betweeen hardware and firmware. Heck Nikon did a recent firmware update to its Z9 and stated that its a entirely new camera.


So, what you are clearly stating - by your own words - is that you are NOT a tech savvy person. You somehow think BSI is a huge tech advance - it is not and has almost no advantage in a FF sensor. You call this sensor an antique, well, that is so stupid it needs no reply.

You sound like a mindless gear-head that would gladly pay hundreds (if not more) for a camera as long as the tech is shiny and NEW - even if it offered no benefit or improvement. 

And when we don't all agree with you, you feel compelled to repeat the same garbage over and over. 

Perhaps you should heed the old saying, "it's better to keep silent and seem a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt."


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## Czardoom (Nov 2, 2022)

AlanF said:


> How many times does have to be posted: the US prices are without sales tax, the EU and UK have about 20% sales tax added. €2990 is about $2490 when the VAT etc is removed. The price in the EU is the same as the US without taxes. But, the UK gets robbed by Canon EU. Our price is £2799, which equates to about €3250, a mark up of 8.5%.


It has to be posted over and over because people want to complain and are too stupid to understand.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Any tech savy person knows the difference betweeen hardware and firmware.


You mean tech savvy people like you who spew asinine claims that stacked BSI sensors are cheaper to produce than FSI sensors and are unwilling (far more likely, unable) to produce any evidence to substantiate your BS?

Or do you mean people who are _actually_ tech savvy? And you have the gall to call others idiots. 

Stop being a jackass. Better yet, go troll somewhere else.


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## Czardoom (Nov 2, 2022)

dsburk0203 said:


> Just sold my R6 for the Sony A7IV, based on what I am seeing here, I am not disappointed one bit.


Good luck with the inferior color science, crappy ergonomics and dust on sensor issues!


----------



## dlee13 (Nov 2, 2022)

entoman said:


> Maybe you should consider that the US is the biggest market. In countries such as UK (where I live) distributors and dealers simply don't have the bulk purchasing power available in the US market. Consequently I usually purchase grey market from HK, although I make exceptions where savings are minimal (such as my RF 100-400mm just purchased in the UK).



I know they are the biggest market but other brands here in Australia don’t charge insane amounts, it’s only Canon. They block third party lenses and charge stupidly high amounts for both EF and RF lenses whereas other brands like Sony charge nearly half the price so pretty hard to justify it. 



Ramage said:


> Again, in Australia you are at the mercy of the increased cost of Canon glass and bodies because they only offer 5 year warranties. Sony offers a 2 years warranty.
> 
> If you were to buy the RF 135 from the US with Australian dollars it would cost you $3303.95 at the current exchange rate and would have no Australian warranty. Yes $665 is a lot to pay for an extra 3 years of warranty but still comparing US pricing to Australian is not really apples to apples because of the extra warranty.
> 
> ...


The problem with that is even despite the warranty an extra 3 years doesn’t equate nearly double the cost. If I bought the 135GM from the US it would be just as expensive but the point it Sony Australia already price it at a fair and reasonable $2300 AUD so the fact Canon charges double that for IS and an extra 3 years warranty is insane. 

It’s more of a case that we are a smaller market, B&H doesn’t ship to AU addresses so Canon is trying to milk us for all we have compared to other brands that charge fair amounts. 


Marco Birri said:


> Canon is already giving Canadians a good rebate on the R6 Mark II. canon.ca has an MSRP of 3499$ for the R6 and 3299$ for the R6 Mark II


Good that you are getting decent prices over there! It’s $4599 AUD at launch here!


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## Czardoom (Nov 2, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I doubt it's intended to be. People seem to think Canon should develop each camera's in-line successor to be a compelling upgrade for current owners and are surprised when that's not the case. Especially not in this case where the cycle time was <2.5 years.
> 
> In general, it seems upgrades are intended to attract users of lower-tier bodies or in-line bodies that are 2-3 iterations back. At this point, Canon is still trying to move their DSLR user base (which is very large) to MILCs. Given that, this camera is likely intended to appeal to 6DII and 5DIII users.


Pretty obvious. Shouldn't need to be stated. Has always been the case and will even more likely be the case as the tech has reached maturity.


----------



## AlanF (Nov 2, 2022)

HikeBike said:


> I have to say, I'm rather impressed that this 24 MP non-stacked sensor has a read-out speed fast enough to support 40 FPS. I'm clearly no expert, but I really thought a stacked sensor would have been needed to achieve this rate at this resolution.


The R7 32.5 Mpx sensor at 30 fps is reading out data at the same rate as 24 Mpx at 40 fps, ie ~960 Mpx/s. But, the R6II shows its speed in its far less rolling shutter.


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## Czardoom (Nov 2, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Better low Light, faster read out speed would prevent banding using electronic shutter


I think you are confusing BSI sensor with a stacked sensor. Stacked sensors offer faster readout speed allowing faster burst rates and reducing rolling shutter among other things. BSI, as far as I have seen, does not do much for a FF sensor.


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## TukTuk (Nov 2, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> I think you are confusing BSI sensor with a stacked sensor. Stacked sensors offer faster readout speed allowing faster burst rates and reducing rolling shutter among other things. BSI, as far as I have seen, does not do much for a FF sensor.


BSI by moving most of wiring behind does allow for better light collection - so "Better low Light" is true... and I am not aware about any stacked FSI sensor - so wiring behind makes it apparently more doable to stack ( if we have 2 separate chips and if it is a one chip stacked design then it has to be BSI , as the wafer has to be exposed on the back side to lay out DRAM etc on that same imaging chip behind sensels)


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## tomislavmoze (Nov 2, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> I think you are confusing BSI sensor with a stacked sensor. Stacked sensors offer faster readout speed allowing faster burst rates and reducing rolling shutter among other things. BSI, as far as I have seen, does not do much for a FF sensor.


the question was "This is a genuine question: how would a BSI stacked sensor help with wedding photography, specifically?"
And I provided the answer, better low light and faster read out speed...


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## TukTuk (Nov 2, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> You somehow think BSI is a huge tech advance - it is not and has almost no advantage in a FF sensor.


not huge but still writing is on the wall - more so w/ more megapixels (think 40mp APS-C for example or Sony Semi made 20mp M43 sensor with quad pixel AF for OM-1 - because you know that is 80 mega sensels on m43 chip = 320 megasensels on FF chip) and also BSI is precondition for stacking at least when we will have FF sensors made as one chip, not separate stacked chips


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## David - Sydney (Nov 2, 2022)

wockawocka said:


> Except the general market probably isn't there. I shoot weddings professionally and can't use a form factor larger than the R5/R6 - It's just too big when you add a lens for all day use with two bodies. I expect the R5 mkii will get something like a 39mp BSI stacked and then Canon will drop a 90+ mp camera to counter the drop in R5 resolution.


No way that the R5ii will decrease in resolution. The R5 introduces 8k to the hybrid market and it would be crazy to think that a successor wouldn't have that ability!

You need 45mp (3:2) to get DCI/UHD 8k video and it also translates nicely to 4K/HD when oversampling compared to A7RV which needs to oversample from the full sensor or have a crop if they ever release raw recording.


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## David - Sydney (Nov 2, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> Well, there has to be an R5 MK II next year, right? Because the fact that it doesn't have a hotshoe is becoming a huge problem, not to mention some of the video issues that have been subsequently enhanced in much-cheaper bodies that have been released.


Clearly you mean the multi-function hotshoe but there is anecdotal evidence that the R5's hotshoe isn't as robust as the 5Div so I am very careful when the flash is attached.


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## David - Sydney (Nov 2, 2022)

entoman said:


> TBH, long warranties are of questionable value - if anything goes wrong with a camera or lens, it's usually either DOA or is discovered within the first couple of weeks. Things seldom wear out, and they only usually break if the item gets dropped, immersed or otherwise abused, in which case the warranty is invalid anyway.


Long warranties give piece of mind and a competitive differentiator. Things do wear over time... cars are a good analogy here and also for the second hand market if the warranty is transferable.

The other thing to consider is that Canon released firmware allowing higher temperature recording which generally does reduce semiconductor lifespan. The extended warranty will cover my use of that feature which is nice... ~3 years to go


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## David - Sydney (Nov 2, 2022)

Ramage said:


> Again, in Australia you are at the mercy of the increased cost of Canon glass and bodies because they only offer 5 year warranties. Sony offers a 2 years warranty.


I think that we have seen price gouging in other countries even taking into account the differences in taxation.



Ramage said:


> If you were to buy the RF 135 from the US with Australian dollars it would cost you $3303.95 at the current exchange rate and would have no Australian warranty. Yes $665 is a lot to pay for an extra 3 years of warranty but still comparing US pricing to Australian is not really apples to apples because of the extra warranty.


My earlier post showed that the local price differential between the R6ii and the current R5 pricing is only 20% at the moment - at least from one reseller. 
Would the R5's features be worth 20%? The difference in the US (ex tax) is 50% for market segmentation.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 2, 2022)

TukTuk said:


> BSI by moving most of wiring behind does allow for better light collection - so "Better low Light" is true...


Technically true, but that doesn’t necessarily mean practically relevant. If the R6II’s price in the US was $2489 instead of $2499, it would be cheaper…technically. Meaningfully cheaper? No. 

With the smallest pixel pitch of current FF (>3.75 µm) and APS-C sensors (>3.2 µm), the gapless microlenses and on-die light guides used in FSI sensors mean the benefits of BSI are minimal at best…on the order of a 1/4-stop increased sensitivity. 

When the pixel pitch gets into the 1-2 µm range, the benefit of BSI becomes meaningful. That means basically with sensors larger than 1”, BSI is really a marketing tactic, not an imaging benefit.


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## Czardoom (Nov 2, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> the question was "This is a genuine question: how would a BSI stacked sensor help with wedding photography, specifically?"
> And I provided the answer, better low light and faster read out speed...


Sorry, I thought you were confusing BSI with stacked, something that has happened often in the recent discussions about the R6 II. From what I have learned from various sources, the low light advantages of BSI sensors is very minimal with FF sensors and even APS-C sensors. Nor have I seen any info that backs the faster read out claims, so not sure if that is real or has just been marketing hype. Since the purpose of BSi (compared to FSI) is to eliminate the small percentage of light that reflects off the circuitry, I guess i don't see how that improves read out speed. You may be correct, of course, but the large gains in readout speed appear to be because of stacking the sensor, rather than the BSI nature of the sensor. Always grateful if anyone has any accurate info on the subject.


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## Czardoom (Nov 2, 2022)




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## Johnw (Nov 3, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Good luck with the inferior color science, crappy ergonomics and dust on sensor issues!



But the flexibility in post is so substantial, you can really channel your inner Spielberg, spending hours getting the exact color grading. Everyone does that right?


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## notalchymy (Nov 3, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Good luck with the inferior color science, crappy ergonomics and dust on sensor issues!


This is true, although I like the dynamic range and codec options of Sony, I cannot get over the ergonomics for me. 

Anyone who shoots for extended periods of time will understand my pain, litterally, in my hand.

To each their own, and remember they are just companies


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## jam05 (Nov 3, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Technically true, but that doesn’t necessarily mean practically relevant. If the R6II’s price in the US was $2489 instead of $2499, it would be cheaper…technically. Meaningfully cheaper? No.
> 
> With the smallest pixel pitch of current FF (>3.75 µm) and APS-C sensors (>3.2 µm), the gapless microlenses and on-die light guides used in FSI sensors mean the benefits of BSI are minimal at best…on the order of a 1/4-stop increased sensitivity.
> 
> When the pixel pitch gets into the 1-2 µm range, the benefit of BSI becomes meaningful. That means basically with sensors larger than 1”, BSI is really a marketing tactic, not an imaging benefit.


So much BS. Almost comical


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 3, 2022)

jam05 said:


> So much BS. Almost comical


Describes your posts, if you remove the ‘almost’. Still waiting for you to back up your asinine claims.




I doubt you will, though. Like Barry Allen, you just push people and run away.


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## SHAMwow (Nov 3, 2022)

Another hilarious point I realized. People used to criticize for Canon not refreshing the lineup when they had some improvements, then they do exactly that type of refresh, and people are sad. It's literally the same price too. This is great.


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## basketballfreak6 (Nov 3, 2022)

Don't feel like enough of an upgrade if you already own the R6 for photos; guess it's a more refinement and video-centric update.

I was really hoping Canon would finally move the shutter release connection to the front of the camera like the 5 series though.


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## Famateur (Nov 3, 2022)

jam05 said:


> So much BS. Almost comical


Jam05...my friend...You're totally entitled to your opinion. Heaven knows opinions on this forum are all over them map. The only rub is when negative opinions get repeated ad nauseum -- particularly in mocking or belittling tone. That's when it turns spirited-but-friendly debate into childish squabble. There really shouldn't be any place for that here.

If you feel like Canon totally missed the mark using a front side illuminated sensor (albeit newly developed and never-before-used), that's totally fine. Voice it respectfully, and move on (or articulate your point of view with supporting info).

You might also consider waiting to see how the new sensor actually performs. No need for a pissing match about sensor architecture. Just let the performance speak for itself.

I've been around long enough to see this play out many times: Initial howling, complaining, and gnashing of teeth...then people actually use it and are pleasantly surprised with the overall package...then it becomes a best-seller.

It mighty be a good idea to at least wait to see real-world sensor performance before jumping in with the teeth gnashers. Maybe even borrow or rent an R6II and see what you think.

You might be pleasantly surprised, too.

Anyway, seems that you kinda got started on the wrong foot. I believe in second chances.

Mulligan?

PS: I just looked up what kind of sensor architecture my R5 has. Turns out it's front side illuminated. I'm loving the results -- especially in low light -- despite that heretofore unknown (to me) fact.


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## EOS (Nov 3, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ironic. I strongly prefer the integrated grip (I put accessory grips on my T1i/500D, 7D and 5DII before getting the 1D X), and I have no real use for built-in GPS.


I much prefer removable battery grips over the big 1D-style camera bodies for the odd times they are useful as I’m not shooting sports or, God forbid, weddings anymore. When schlepping gear into the mountains or backwoods, I’m far more concerned with weight and bulk. As always, YMMV.


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## David - Sydney (Nov 3, 2022)

Famateur said:


> PS: I just looked up what kind of sensor architecture my R5 has. Turns out it's front side illuminated. I'm loving the results -- especially in low light -- despite that heretofore unknown (to me) fact.


Indeed, BSI/stacked is pretty new and Canon has certainly improved their FSI sensors over time. Demanding that all new sensors should be BSI/stacked is missing the point of results vs technology - especially when it comes to pricing (and margin) competitiveness.

When the R5 came out... DXO (love or loath it) had this to say:

"As for sensor performance, the EOS R5 sensor represents a high water mark for Canon. Maximum dynamic range is competitive with the best in class, and the R5 sensor offers a useful advantage at some crucial ISO settings over its rivals. It also has excellent color and low noise at high ISOs, which all go toward making the Canon EOS R5 one of the most well-rounded performers in this important category. It may have taken a while to get here, but the Canon EOS R5 looks set to be the one to beat."


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## EOS (Nov 3, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Good luck with the inferior color science, crappy ergonomics and dust on sensor issues!


I do prefer Canon's skintones, but my R7 IV has been fantastic for landscapes combined with Sony’s mirrorless fast wide primes. I have the 24mm f/1.4 GM and 20mm f/1.8 G along with the 35mm f/1.4 GM and 14mm f/1.8 GM on loan, and they have all been amazing. 

I keep waiting for the RF fast wide *L* primes, but I’m not holding my breath.


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## PhotoGenerous (Nov 3, 2022)

EOS said:


> I much prefer removable battery grips over the big 1D-style camera bodies for the odd times they are useful as I’m not shooting sports or, God forbid, weddings anymore. When schlepping gear into the mountains or backwoods, I’m far more concerned with weight and bulk. As always, YMMV.


I hate that the feel of the removable grip is different than the main grip. It's larger, the button placements are all different, and the biggest thing is that the joystick is in a completely different and awkward position. I've never held a camera with an integrated grip, but looking at the images of the R3 it looks like closer in size to the main grip. The buttons and dial are more closely matched, and the joystick for sure is in a better position on the R3.

I would love to have one regular R5 (But with a grip extension like they made for the RP), and one R5 with an integrated grip as my two bodies.

As it is though, I'm very appreciative that Canon designed one grip that can be swapped between the R5 and R6, and that they didn't required a separate grip for each.


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## Hector1970 (Nov 3, 2022)

navastronia said:


> It being 1/16000 makes this a potential upgrade for me


Out of curiosity , what would you shoot at 1/16000?


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## koenkooi (Nov 3, 2022)

Kit. said:


> What's wrong with in on R5? It seemed to work last time I stumbled upon it.


The Canon app doesn’t support tethered operation, only wifi/bluetooth operation. An upcoming update will add USB support for the R6II.


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## David - Sydney (Nov 3, 2022)

Hector1970 said:


> Out of curiosity , what would you shoot at 1/16000?


or 180,000/s in the new Fuji XT body?


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## koenkooi (Nov 3, 2022)

Hector1970 said:


> Out of curiosity , what would you shoot at 1/16000?


My guess would be subjects with reflective surfaces, in bright sunlight, at f/1.2 or larger apertures.


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## Del Paso (Nov 3, 2022)

jam05 said:


> So much BS. Almost comical


What about jumping ship?
Sony-Fuji etc...Rumors are looking for new "tech savvy" members.


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## fox40phil (Nov 3, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> And VAT is about 20% in Europe.
> Free (almost...) healthcare in Europe has a price.
> I'd rather pay more for a new camera every few years...


There is nothing free.... I’m paying each month 220-250€ for healthcare. And there are many private healthcare things to pay separate! Don’t believe this „free“ shit!

To the camera...
Still has heavy rolling shutter... HEAVY disappointment!!
My RP has it, my 10 month old R6 has it, my 2 months old R7 has it....
Many new cameras since end of 2019....
I wouldn’t buy another one for 3.000€ WITH annoying rolling shutter!!!

The burst mode is useless with rolling shutter!!! I see this at the R7 for birds at the start of flying... looks horrible!!


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## entoman (Nov 3, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> I know they are the biggest market but other brands here in Australia don’t charge insane amounts, it’s only Canon. They block third party lenses and charge stupidly high amounts for both EF and RF lenses whereas other brands like Sony charge nearly half the price so pretty hard to justify it.


You may be directing your complaint at the wrong source - I believe that the prices are not dictated by Canon the manufacturer, but rather by the distributor in Australia, i.e. Canon Australia.


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## entoman (Nov 3, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Long warranties give piece of mind and a competitive differentiator. Things do wear over time... cars are a good analogy here and also for the second hand market if the warranty is transferable.
> 
> The other thing to consider is that Canon released firmware allowing higher temperature recording which generally does reduce semiconductor lifespan. The extended warranty will cover my use of that feature which is nice... ~3 years to go


I don't think cars are a good analogy at all - cars have engines, suspension, bearings etc that wear out. Cameras are largely solid state electronics and its very rare for anything to wear out. Either they work or they're DOA. Long warranties give peace of mind, but their value is psychological rather than actual. The only "warranty" of any real value is the (typically) 14 day "no questions asked" return and refund policy (which is a legal requirement in most countries, not a warranty).


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## kcimer (Nov 3, 2022)

PhotoGenerous said:


> I hate that the feel of the removable grip is different than the main grip. It's larger, the button placements are all different, and the biggest thing is that the joystick is in a completely different and awkward position. I've never held a camera with an integrated grip, but looking at the images of the R3 it looks like closer in size to the main grip. The buttons and dial are more closely matched, and the joystick for sure is in a better position on the R3.
> 
> I would love to have one regular R5 (But with a grip extension like they made for the RP), and one R5 with an integrated grip as my two bodies.
> 
> As it is though, I'm very appreciative that Canon designed one grip that can be swapped between the R5 and R6, and that they didn't required a separate grip for each.


Yeah, first few times using the grip I had to put the camera away from my eyes and look for jostick :-D In 1D series vertical and horizontal layout is completely same. I had II-s, III-s and X.


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## koenkooi (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> You may be directing your complaint at the wrong source - I believe that the prices are not dictated by Canon the manufacturer, but rather by the distributor in Australia, i.e. Canon Australia.


But Canon has a global policy of enforcing MAP, which is why you virtually never see a single shop offering a discount, publicly. This is why canonpricewatch exists, they try to match you to a dealer with non-public discounts.


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## AlanF (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> You may be directing your complaint at the wrong source - I believe that the prices are not dictated by Canon the manufacturer, but rather by the distributor in Australia, i.e. Canon Australia.


Canon UK price is dictated by Canon EU. But, can you believe that Canon headquarters have no power over their subsidiaries?


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## entoman (Nov 3, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Canon UK price is dictated by Canon EU. But, can you believe that Canon headquarters have no power over their subsidiaries?


Canon HQ are only interested in shifting the largest number of bodies and lenses possible. I think the subsidiaries largely dictate the retail prices, based on what they think they can get away with in the local market economies. The only people who could give a factual statement on this are Canon and their subsidiaries, but I suspect that neither would be willing to comment.


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## entoman (Nov 3, 2022)

jam05 said:


> That's all it is. Complete firmware updates. An antique image sensor that is not even a BSI CMOS. A plain CMOS sensor. If you're impressed with firmware coding and 40fps electronic shutter only, waste your money. Any tech savy person knows the difference betweeen hardware and firmware. Heck Nikon did a recent firmware update to its Z9 and stated that its a entirely new camera.


You appear to be more interested in technology than in photography. I'd suggest that most enthusiasts and pros only care about the end result, and it matters not a toss to them whether it is achieved by "plain CMOS" or by BSI or stacked technology. As for the Z9, I'd guess that most users are extremely pleased that firmware updates have resulted in improvements good enough to warrant the "entirely new camera" hype.


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## AlanF (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> Canon HQ are only interested in shifting the largest number of bodies and lenses possible. I think the subsidiaries largely dictate the retail prices, based on what they think they can get away with in the local market economies. The only people who could give a factual statement on this are Canon and their subsidiaries, but I suspect that neither would be willing to comment.


Does having higher prices in the UK shift more bodies and lenses? I think not.


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## abforums (Nov 3, 2022)

When does it actually start shipping?
Will a preorder at a dealer like BH ship around the same time as canon or will canon hold all other dealer orders before they exhaust their own?
Any past trends?


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## entoman (Nov 3, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Does having higher prices in the UK shift more bodies and lenses? I think not.


Prior to   Brexit , Canon Europe set the prices across the EU including the UK, and any differences in prices between the various EU countries would have been the result of local taxes (VAT, purchase taxes).

I don't claim to be fully familiar with the facts, but I'd assume that the high UK prices were due to our tax laws. Canon Europe would presumably have set the prices on the basis of what they thought the market would tolerate.

What happens to VAT on luxury/leisure goods in the current economic climate is anyone's guess, but it's unlikely to be good news.

The moral of this story is simple - buy grey market and don't worry about worthless warranties - a policy which I think you also adopt.


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## scyrene (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> Prior to   Brexit , Canon Europe set the prices across the EU including the UK, and any differences in prices between the various EU countries would have been the result of local taxes (VAT, purchase taxes).
> 
> I don't claim to be fully familiar with the facts, but I'd assume that the high UK prices were due to our tax laws. Canon Europe would presumably have set the prices on the basis of what they thought the market would tolerate.
> 
> ...


I think the point Alan makes is, it must be a Canon policy because the price difference is less with other brands. If it were a structural issue due to tax or whatever, it would be common to other camera manufacturers too.


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## entoman (Nov 3, 2022)

scyrene said:


> I think the point Alan makes is, it must be a Canon policy because the price difference is less with other brands. If it were a structural issue due to tax or whatever, it would be common to other camera manufacturers too.


Maybe the problem is that people (in the UK) just seem to be prepared to pay more to get a Canon product? I rate Canon products higher (for my own personal use) than Sony or Nikon, but I shop around and invariably find that it's significantly cheaper (and almost as quick) to buy grey.


----------



## SHAMwow (Nov 3, 2022)

PhotoGenerous said:


> I hate that the feel of the removable grip is different than the main grip. It's larger, the button placements are all different, and the biggest thing is that the joystick is in a completely different and awkward position. I've never held a camera with an integrated grip, but looking at the images of the R3 it looks like closer in size to the main grip. The buttons and dial are more closely matched, and the joystick for sure is in a better position on the R3.
> 
> I would love to have one regular R5 (But with a grip extension like they made for the RP), and one R5 with an integrated grip as my two bodies.
> 
> As it is though, I'm very appreciative that Canon designed one grip that can be swapped between the R5 and R6, and that they didn't required a separate grip for each.


I know it sounds so silly, but the offset of the grip just bugs me too much, along with the joystick placement. Wish I knew what forced them into that design. I held it at a shop and just couldn't justify the price when its like that.


----------



## dsburk0203 (Nov 3, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Good luck with the inferior color science, crappy ergonomics and dust on sensor issues!


Personally I prefer the ergonomics of the A7IV (matter of preference) as well as the dial/button setup (custom buttons and modes programmable in photo and video and I can power the camera on and quickly change shooting modes with one hand where as the R6 mark II will still require a 2 hand change and shooting hybrid sports that absolutely matters), shutter priority in video, and the R6 color science is not any better than the A7IV, not any worse either. As a matter of fact, as a hybrid sports shooter I have presets for certain gyms that I shoot in and I was able to use my R6 presets on the A7IV raw files with a little tweaking and they look just as good if not better, and I shoot raw so color science is a bit of a moot point. S-cinetone is very nice for 10-bit color when I want to be lazy (aka no grading).

Dust on sensor? It has the same feature that the R6 does to cover the sensor at shut off. Might do your research next time, plus I never said A7IV was superior to R6 Mark II (from experience I find it to be much better than the R6 mark I IMO), I just said I am not disappointed about my decision based on the specs. Had their been something jaw-dropping (I was hoping there would be), I might have returned my A7IV for the R6 Mark II, as it is I will stay with what I have and buy some excellent third party glass to go with it.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 3, 2022)

PhotoGenerous said:


> I hate that the feel of the removable grip is different than the main grip. It's larger, the button placements are all different, and the biggest thing is that the joystick is in a completely different and awkward position. I've never held a camera with an integrated grip, but looking at the images of the R3 it looks like closer in size to the main grip. The buttons and dial are more closely matched, and the joystick for sure is in a better position on the R3.


For me, it's not just the button placement but the feel of holding the grip. The accessory grips extend in front of the camera like the regular grip, which makes sense because your fingers need to wrap around it, but also in back of the camera, which is necessary for the grip to accommodate the pair of transversely-oriented batteries, but makes the grip too wide to be comfortable. On the integrated grip bodies, holding in portrait orientation is much more comfortable for me.


----------



## Juangrande (Nov 3, 2022)

danfaz said:


> I've seen a few YouTube "influencers" request this setup as they wanted to be able to turn the camera on and shoot with one hand.


Like who, Jason Lanier? Lol.


----------



## Johnw (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> I think the subsidiaries largely dictate the retail prices, based on what they think they can get away with in the local market economies.



The price is set to maximize revenue, yes. But that doesn’t really make Canon any different from any other corp in that respect. 



AlanF said:


> Does having higher prices in the UK shift more bodies and lenses? I think not.



I would say he erred when he stated that Canon HQ is interested in shifting the largest number of units. I would instead say that Canon HQ is interested in maximizing revenue (and thus profit). The optimal price point to maximize revenue may be higher in different economies even if that results in lower unit sales. 

Revenue = price x quantity demanded at that price


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## Johnw (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> Maybe the problem is that people (in the UK) just seem to be prepared to pay more to get a Canon product?



That’s exactly it, imo. Canon has calculated that the quantity demanded in the UK does not seem to have fallen off much with the increased prices. So they’ll take slightly lower unit sales but a higher margin per unit which will add up to more revenue and profit overall.


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## Juangrande (Nov 3, 2022)

SnowMiku said:


> Probably not worth the upgrade for an existing R6 user, but great if you don't own one already. People who brought an R6 within the last 3 months or so would likely be annoyed at this announcement.
> 
> I wonder if an R5 II will be coming soon? I think the second generation will be the one where the main issues such as random freezing will be fixed.


I wouldn’t call the freezing a main issue since it’s not affecting all the R5’s must’ve been a bad batch # I’ve yet to experience it.


----------



## Marco Birri (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> I don't think cars are a good analogy at all - cars have engines, suspension, bearings etc that wear out. Cameras are largely solid state electronics and its very rare for anything to wear out. Either they work or they're DOA. Long warranties give peace of mind, but their value is psychological rather than actual. The only "warranty" of any real value is the (typically) 14 day "no questions asked" return and refund policy (which is a legal requirement in most countries, not a warranty).


R6 hot shoe?


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## navastronia (Nov 3, 2022)

Hector1970 said:


> Out of curiosity , what would you shoot at 1/16000?



Funny this should question should arise in another thread in response to me saying this.

I mentioned 3 weeks ago about a job I did at the beach, on a very bright morning, where it would have been advantageous to shoot wide open with wide aperture primes. I/16000 would have helped me.


----------



## Blue Zurich (Nov 3, 2022)

Just read Bryan C.'s pre production review for the lens. That was enough to wishlist it at B&H. I'm a 135L guy to the core, owned multiple copies of the OG since it's launch. this is really the only piece of the RF family missing for what I do and love. No more adapting. (not that that was a bad thing)

Thanks Canon!


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## entoman (Nov 3, 2022)

Juangrande said:


> I wouldn’t call the freezing a main issue since it’s not affecting all the R5’s must’ve been a bad batch # I’ve yet to experience it.


Yes, could have been a bad batch (like mine) but could also be due to certain combinations of settings causing software conflicts. There are literally tens of thousands of permutations of custom button settings and it's possible that some combinations could be driving freezes.


----------



## entoman (Nov 3, 2022)

Marco Birri said:


> R6 hot shoe?


I'd call that bad design rather than wear and tear - big flash units just place too much leverage on the shoe.

I've found problems even with small flashguns (270EXii and 430EXiii RT) when fitted to various Canon bodies that I've owned including 6D, 5DS, 5DMkiv and R5 - they occasionally become slightly unseated - just by enough to move the contacts enough to cause the flash to fire at full power instead of a TTL-controlled exposure.


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## AccipiterQ (Nov 3, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> Just read Bryan C.'s pre production review for the lens. That was enough to wishlist it at B&H. I'm a 135L guy to the core, owned multiple copies of the OG since it's launch. this is really the only piece of the RF family missing for what I do and love. No more adapting. (not that that was a bad thing)
> 
> Thanks Canon!



Is this a lens you use for portraiture / indoor sports?


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## AlanF (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> Prior to   Brexit , Canon Europe set the prices across the EU including the UK, and any differences in prices between the various EU countries would have been the result of local taxes (VAT, purchase taxes).
> 
> I don't claim to be fully familiar with the facts, but I'd assume that the high UK prices were due to our tax laws. Canon Europe would presumably have set the prices on the basis of what they thought the market would tolerate.
> 
> ...


Nothing to do with our tax laws - apart from slight variations in VAT%. As I have posted every time this comes up, Sony and Nikon don't usually have these large mark-ups in the UK. I recall that Norway has similar problems. I do buy grey imports but I much prefer to buy from WEX as they have a no-hassle return policy.


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## Blue Zurich (Nov 3, 2022)

AccipiterQ said:


> Is this a lens you use for portraiture / indoor sports?


On occasion but primarily for compressed landscape and abstraction


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## Ian K (Nov 3, 2022)

Wowmail said:


> Wow I hear you, maybe it's cheaper to fly to New York. Do they hit you for VAT when you re-enter the Country?


Yes, they would charge you VAT for an import of that price. You're allowed something like £135 on entry to the country.

According to current prices for the 135L our price is only about £130 more than the US price, by simple exchange rate. That is likely accounted for by import duties.


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## SteveC (Nov 3, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> or 180,000/s in the new Fuji XT body?


Photons in flight.


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## Del Paso (Nov 3, 2022)

fox40phil said:


> There is nothing free.... I’m paying each month 220-250€ for healthcare. And there are many private healthcare things to pay separate! Don’t believe this „free“ shit!
> 
> To the camera...
> Still has heavy rolling shutter... HEAVY disappointment!!
> ...


How much would a cancer treatment, a heart transplant cost ?
Euro 250 a month looks like a huge bargain...in case you need expensive health care.
But you're right, there is a monthly payment.


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## dlee13 (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> You may be directing your complaint at the wrong source - I believe that the prices are not dictated by Canon the manufacturer, but rather by the distributor in Australia, i.e. Canon Australia.


Well Canon Australia is still Canon though right? Not like it’s some third party distributor… We might actually be better off with one since Sigma use one and their prices are cheaper than the US ones.


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## Cyborx (Nov 3, 2022)

Nice, almost 3000 euro’s instead of the 2499 dollars in the US. Nice work Canon! Thank you!


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## Cyborx (Nov 3, 2022)

We


Rocksthaman said:


> This Camera is amazing. It’s really what the R5C firmware should have been.
> 
> Bump in mp and resolving
> 6k
> ...


We’re not complaining about this camera, we’re complaining about the insane price difference between US and Europe.


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## Cyborx (Nov 3, 2022)

exige24 said:


> If this is how they upgrade the R5, I'll just be waiting for the R1. Phoning that crap in. It's been 2 years. C'mon


Agreed! The CMOS sensor is outdated! 
Turn your R6 to silent mode and start shooting an event with LED and beamers, absolute HORROR output.


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## BurningPlatform (Nov 3, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> Nice, almost 3000 euro’s instead of the 2499 dollars in the US. Nice work Canon! Thank you!


Well, as said many times, U.S. prices do not include VAT. 2499 $ + 20 % VAT is 3189 EUR. It is cheaper in Europe,


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## tomislavmoze (Nov 3, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> Nice, almost 3000 euro’s instead of the 2499 dollars in the US. Nice work Canon! Thank you!


In Croatia if you remove 25% vat the price is 2440euros which is less than the USA price...if you own a business in that case it is cheaper to buy it in Europe.


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## Bonich (Nov 3, 2022)

BurningPlatform said:


> Well, as said many times, U.S. prices do not include VAT. 2499 $ + 20 % VAT is 3189 $. It is cheaper in Europe,


Oh box, this makes sense:

US prices 135 1.8: Sony GM: $2099 vs Canon RF $2099
European prices:135 1.8: Sony GM: $1679 vs Canon RF $2699


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## Kit. (Nov 3, 2022)

Bonich said:


> European prices:135 1.8: Sony GM: $1679


1579 €, actually, if you count the "Winter Cashback" (100 €).


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## tomislavmoze (Nov 3, 2022)

Bonich said:


> Oh box, this makes sense:
> 
> US prices 135 1.8: Sony GM: $2099 vs Canon RF $2099
> European prices:135 1.8: Sony GM: $1679 vs Canon RF $2699


in Croatia RF135 1.8 is 2215$ without tax, I guess the camera body is cheaper but the lenses are not... although Canon offers a lot of cash backs and promotions to lower the price. Last month they had great discounts if you bring an old lens depending on the weight of it you could get 15/20/25% discount... So you could get a really good discount giving old cheap and heavy manual lenses.


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## danfaz (Nov 3, 2022)

Juangrande said:


> Like who, Jason Lanier? Lol.


Probably!


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## AlanF (Nov 3, 2022)

Ian K said:


> Yes, they would charge you VAT for an import of that price. You're allowed something like £135 on entry to the country.
> 
> According to current prices for the 135L our price is only about £130 more than the US price, by simple exchange rate. That is likely accounted for by import duties.


US price = $2099. UK price = £2599 = $2911, at the bad exchange rate of today. Take off 20% for VAT= $2426. Difference = $327 = £292 more expensive here, that is 15.56%.


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## BurningPlatform (Nov 3, 2022)

Bonich said:


> Oh box, this makes sense:
> 
> US prices 135 1.8: Sony GM: $2099 vs Canon RF $2099
> European prices:135 1.8: Sony GM: $1679 vs Canon RF $2699


Actually it is the Sony pricing that does not make much sense, their European price is much lower than the US price. They probably have not checked their exchange rates for a few years.


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## Skyscraperfan (Nov 3, 2022)

What if the exchange rate changes? The dollar will not be worth more than the Euro forever. A strong dollar is not good for the US economy. A strong dollar means that production in the US is very expensive.


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## Kit. (Nov 3, 2022)

BurningPlatform said:


> Actually it is the Sony pricing that does not make much sense, their European price is much lower than the US price.


Sony runs a deep discount + winter rebate on this lens at the moment (at least in Germany).


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## David - Sydney (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> I don't think cars are a good analogy at all - cars have engines, suspension, bearings etc that wear out. Cameras are largely solid state electronics and its very rare for anything to wear out. Either they work or they're DOA. Long warranties give peace of mind, but their value is psychological rather than actual.


You are clearly entitled to your opinion but I believe that cars are not a bad analogy. Shutter actuation lifespan is always quoted and second hand prices can be dictated by how close to needing a new shutter assembly which has a fixed cost. Think of it being similar to a battery pack in a hybrid car. What is not needed is regular maintenance to keep the warranty going.

The IBIS assembly is constantly moving and we are yet to see what the longevity is of them but so far so good. The other moving parts are diopter adjustment, card/battery doors, buttons/knobs etc. Things do go wrong. I have an underwater TTL convertor where the button fell off at the 12 month mark and it has been only used 4 times.
My old 7D had the glue around the top screen cover come loose after 6 months.


entoman said:


> The only "warranty" of any real value is the (typically) 14 day "no questions asked" return and refund policy (which is a legal requirement in most countries, not a warranty).


I am not sure that the "14 day no questions asked" policy exists outside of the US. It certainly doesn't in Australia. DOA (Dead on arrival) goods needs to be repaired or replaced or refunded.

Our consumer law is powerful. You do not need to sue the company as as the government department will intervene or take the company to court if needed.
Consumer guarantees cannot be negotiated or carved out by contracts. Companies must provide "acceptable quality" and this is dependent on the type of product or service and other conditions.
Warranties are actually in addition to consumer guarantees under law and can include refunds within certain timeframes and conditions.
Companies are fined if they mislead consumers in their marketing.
Companies must be clear in the total price
The goods must perform substantively to advertised purpose for a "reasonable time depending on the good or service" so the Apple phone 12 month warranty had to be extended to 2 years simply because they were being sold under 2 year commitment agreements by the telcos. 

That said, Australia doesn't have a "lemon" law eg when a car has major failures from the beginning which is unfortunate


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## AlanF (Nov 3, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> I am not sure that the "14 day no questions asked" policy exists outside of the US. It certainly doesn't in Australia. DOA (Dead on arrival) goods needs to be repaired or replaced or refunded.


We have in the UK the 14-day right to return goods bought on line. And some good retailers extend that to 30 days or so. See - https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds


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## David - Sydney (Nov 3, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> But Canon has a global policy of enforcing MAP, which is why you virtually never see a single shop offering a discount, publicly. This is why canonpricewatch exists, they try to match you to a dealer with non-public discounts.


Actually, that is not correct and it assumes that the world follows the US which it doesn't.
Canon price watch doesn't exist outside of the US as far as I know
There may be manufacturer suggested retail price or RRP (recommended retail price) but (at least in Australia) they cannot dictate the price that a 3rd party company sells at.
They can and do offer post sale rebates in addition to any reseller pricing.
Resellers can price under cost if they want to, bundle in whatever they like as long as they are meeting the Australian Consumer Law.
Just doing a search on R5 in Australia for a google shopping page shows a range of prices from authorised Canon resellers from AUD5390 to AUD6000 to AUD6200 to AUD6400 which admittedly is much wider a range than normal here. 
I got my RF70-200mm/2.8 on a 20% discount for instance and there are regular sales periods. Black Friday is an imported sales period from the US though!


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## David - Sydney (Nov 3, 2022)

AlanF said:


> We have in the UK the 14-day right to return goods bought on line. And some good retailers extend that to 30 days or so. See - https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds


That is great but limited to ordering at a distance. Just another example of how different countries have different consumer laws.


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## Skux (Nov 3, 2022)

Oh come on, they removed the IR sensor? I know it's old tech but it just works. No messing around with Bluetooth pairing or a phone app...


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## David - Sydney (Nov 3, 2022)

Johnw said:


> That’s exactly it, imo. Canon has calculated that the quantity demanded in the UK does not seem to have fallen off much with the increased prices. So they’ll take slightly lower unit sales but a higher margin per unit which will add up to more revenue and profit overall.


Canon appears to have global pricing in USD rather than Yen as far as I can see. The USD:GBP has been on a roller coaster of late from 0.73 1 year ago to 0.9. Canon UK may be doing a big currency hedge. The AUD:USD hasn't moved as much but the R6ii appears to be really out of step vs the R5 currently.


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## David - Sydney (Nov 3, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> Well Canon Australia is still Canon though right? Not like it’s some third party distributor… We might actually be better off with one since Sigma use one and their prices are cheaper than the US ones.


Yes, Ibis world has this:
"Canon Australia Pty Limited is a foreign-owned private company, deriving revenue from importing, marketing and servicing business and personal equipment, as well as offering financing facilities to consumers. The company employs approximately 2,500 people, operates in Australia and New Zealand, and is administered from its head office in Macquarie Park, New South Wales.

*Canon Australia Pty Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of Japan-based imaging and optical product manufacturer, Canon Inc*"


----------



## jam05 (Nov 3, 2022)

Simply firmware updates. Will know which internal components are carry overs as soon as I do a tear down.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 3, 2022)

Skux said:


> Oh come on, they removed the IR sensor? I know it's old tech but it just works. No messing around with Bluetooth pairing or a phone app...


Yeah, I went through that with the R3. I bought the BR-E1 and find it works great.


----------



## entoman (Nov 3, 2022)

dlee13 said:


> Well Canon Australia is still Canon though right? Not like it’s some third party distributor… We might actually be better off with one since Sigma use one and their prices are cheaper than the US ones.


OK it's bad in Oz, but it's a whole lot worse in the UK. We are ripped off by the Canon distributors, and have been for many years. Take it from me, the only way to resolve the problem is for people to turn en-masse to the grey market, and force the distributors to become more competitive. IMO, there's little if anything to be gained from buying through the official Canon distributor, unless you are a pro who needs CPS.


----------



## Hector1970 (Nov 3, 2022)

navastronia said:


> Funny this should question should arise in another thread in response to me saying this.
> 
> I mentioned 3 weeks ago about a job I did at the beach, on a very bright morning, where it would have been advantageous to shoot wide open with wide aperture primes. I/16000 would have helped me.


Interesting, I would probably have used a neutral density filter. 1/16000 is an incredible shutter speed, it would really freeze action. Yes 1.2 and sunny days don't mix too well.


----------



## entoman (Nov 3, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> You are clearly entitled to your opinion but I believe that cars are not a bad analogy. Shutter actuation lifespan is always quoted and second hand prices can be dictated by how close to needing a new shutter assembly which has a fixed cost. Think of it being similar to a battery pack in a hybrid car. What is not needed is regular maintenance to keep the warranty going.
> 
> The IBIS assembly is constantly moving and we are yet to see what the longevity is of them but so far so good. The other moving parts are diopter adjustment, card/battery doors, buttons/knobs etc. Things do go wrong. I have an underwater TTL convertor where the button fell off at the 12 month mark and it has been only used 4 times.
> My old 7D had the glue around the top screen cover come loose after 6 months.


Shutter counts do affect resale prices, but that's not what we were discussing. We were discussing how likely it is for a camera to break due to worn out parts. I think you overestimate the likelihood of "wear and tear" component failures. FWIW, I can relate my own experiences, i.e. a 5DS body that achieved over 250,000 actuations and was still going strong when I sold it a few months back. Likewise my 5DMkiv was in daily use for 2 years and has passed the 150K mark.

Yes, IBIS is a possible candidate for failure, but I've never heard of one failing. I did have the spring behind the "set" button on my 5DS loose its springiness, which made the camera a little harder to use, but this was after 3 years of heavy use, and included 2 occasions when the camera was accidentally(!) dropped from heights of about 1 metre onto hard road surfaces. So I maintain that the likelihood of anything wearing out on a modern Canon during the (1 year) distributor's warranty period is pretty remote. Yes, of course a few people will be unlucky and something can go wrong, but I'd rather save over £1000 on a hi end camera body by buying from the grey market. YMMV.


David - Sydney said:


> I am not sure that the "14 day no questions asked" policy exists outside of the US. It certainly doesn't in Australia. DOA (Dead on arrival) goods needs to be repaired or replaced or refunded.
> 
> Our consumer law is powerful. You do not need to sue the company as as the government department will intervene or take the company to court if needed.
> Consumer guarantees cannot be negotiated or carved out by contracts. Companies must provide "acceptable quality" and this is dependent on the type of product or service and other conditions.
> ...


Consumer laws in the UK are equally powerful. The Consumer Contracts Regulations gives us a cancellation period that starts the moment we place the order and ends 14 days from the day we receive the goods. This is commonly referred to as the "cooling off period" during we are legally entitled to change our mind and return the goods for a full refund. In practice this means that we can play with the camera free of charge for a fortnight before we are committed to the purchase. We then have a further 14 days from the date we notify the retailer that we'd like to cancel the order, to return the goods to them (undamaged and with original packing, we pay the return postage).

In addition to this we have "fit for purpose" legislation, and a statutory right to have any item which develops a fault within 6 months to be repaired, replaced with an identical product if available, or issued a refund.

On top of that, some retailers offer a "no questions asked" return policy of up to 30 days.


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## danfaz (Nov 3, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Simply firmware updates. Will know which internal components are carry overs as soon as I do a tear down.


Just curious, the extra 4 megapixels are a firmware update?


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## David - Sydney (Nov 3, 2022)

entoman said:


> Shutter counts do affect resale prices, but that's not what we were discussing. We were discussing how likely it is for a camera to break due to worn out parts. I think you overestimate the likelihood of "wear and tear" component failures. FWIW, I can relate my own experiences, i.e. a 5DS body that achieved over 250,000 actuations and was still going strong when I sold it a few months back. Likewise my 5DMkiv was in daily use for 2 years and has passed the 150K mark.


If a shutter failed at 20% of its rated lifespan or even 50%, I would put in a claim under warranty but I agree that Canon has been conservative in its ratings in the past and 500k for the R5 is impressive and comforting.


entoman said:


> Yes, IBIS is a possible candidate for failure, but I've never heard of one failing.


IBIS is still relatively new especially for full frame (bigger movements). Hopefully there won't be a spate of failures in the future.


entoman said:


> Consumer laws in the UK are equally powerful. The Consumer Contracts Regulations gives us a cancellation period that starts the moment we place the order and ends 14 days from the day we receive the goods. This is commonly referred to as the "cooling off period" during we are legally entitled to change our mind and return the goods for a full refund. In practice this means that we can play with the camera free of charge for a fortnight before we are committed to the purchase. We then have a further 14 days from the date we notify the retailer that we'd like to cancel the order, to return the goods to them (undamaged and with original packing, we pay the return postage).


Frankly, that is very generous! Amazing that you can effectively try before you finally commit your money. Do people abuse the system eg I need a spare R5 body for a wedding just in case and then return it within the policy period?
Does the UK have a refurbished pricing scheme similar to the US based on - what I assume is - the arbitrary returns within that period?


----------



## navastronia (Nov 3, 2022)

Hector1970 said:


> Interesting, I would probably have used a neutral density filter. 1/16000 is an incredible shutter speed, it would really freeze action. Yes 1.2 and sunny days don't mix too well.



I don't want to fiddle with NDs while shooting event photography


----------



## beforeEos Camaras (Nov 3, 2022)

Emyr Evans said:


> I'm jumping ship.


bye dont let the door hit you on the way out


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Nov 3, 2022)

Ramage said:


> Thanks, your right Samyang is South Korean. I am sure you understood what I mean by cloner. If not that's OK.
> 
> Cheers



Yes, i did but i don't think Samyang is a cloner. They have quite original lens designs. Yongnuo was/is a cloner.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Nov 4, 2022)

Finally! A Eos R6 that matches the resolution of the Eos 6Dii. Even the old Eos RP had more res than the R6 mk1!
I wonder if the R6ii is intended as an upgrade path to the RP?
I can easily see the R6ii being very popular with wedding photographers and photojournalists, possibly taking over the mantle from the 5D3/4. It has a perfect £/features ratio. I suspect this could be a massive seller for Canon.


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Nov 4, 2022)

I wonder if the shutter still has the same quality as a few years ago, as more and more people use an electronic shutter most of the time. So Canon might not want to spend resources for making the shutter more durable.

I think I would use the mechanical shutter most of the time, as no rolling shutter is still better than a small rolling shutter.


----------



## jd7 (Nov 4, 2022)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Finally! A Eos R6 that matches the resolution of the Eos 6Dii. Even the old Eos RP had more res than the R6 mk1!
> I wonder if the R6ii is intended as an upgrade path to the RP?
> I can easily see the R6ii being very popular with wedding photographers and photojournalists, possibly taking over the mantle from the 5D3/4. It has a perfect £/features ratio. I suspect this could be a massive seller for Canon.


To be pedantic, the 6Dii has 26MP, so still 2MP more than the R6ii


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Nov 4, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Battery life/CIPA has improved >10% which is a good sign and matches A7iv.
> Pre-buffer finally makes it on a Canon body!
> flash sync @1/200s mechanical, 1/250s EFCS.
> Mostly a video update and virtually no thermal limits or 30 minute clip length
> ...


Funnily enough, I’m still using a pair of 5D3’s. The Eos R was too immature as a product for me and the R5 is just way too expensive for me. I buy two bodies and a pair of R5 are just too expensive for me at the moment. 
The R6 seemed like a downgrade compared to a 5D4 option for a similar price bracket. But the 6Dii looks like a far better proposition. It might be my gateway into the RF world.
I’m not so fussed about the RF lenses, I already have a complete collection of EF glass. From f2.8 zooms through to super bright primes. I’ve been rocking a 135L for years and see little incentive to side-grade to the new RF 135lis. Sure it’s a tad brighter and has an IS unit. But £2K is a lot of money for a few new features. 
However, the closer MFD & max reproduction ratio is quite a big feature / attraction. I can see it being very popular with wedding photographers. Choosing the 135 over the 100 macro. In fact the 135l could easily replace the duties of a 70-200 f2.8 at a wedding, consolidating one lens for several. It’s just a pity it’s a lot bigger and heavier than the current Ef 135L. One of the joys of the ef 135L is it’s size and lightness as well as it’s unobtrusiveness.


----------



## john1970 (Nov 4, 2022)

The MTF Chart on the new Canon RF 135 mm f1.8 lens from Canon Japan​​MTF characteristic chart​


----------



## AlanF (Nov 4, 2022)

john1970 said:


> The MTF Chart on the new Canon RF 135 mm f1.8 lens from Canon Japan​​MTF characteristic chart​


Impressive! But some will complain about charts... Not me.


----------



## entoman (Nov 4, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Frankly, that is very generous! Amazing that you can effectively try before you finally commit your money. Do people abuse the system eg I need a spare R5 body for a wedding just in case and then return it within the policy period?
> Does the UK have a refurbished pricing scheme similar to the US based on - what I assume is - the arbitrary returns within that period?


I'm sure there must be people who buy a camera to try it out or take it on holiday for a couple of weeks, and then return it for a refund, although such abuse doesn't seem to be widespread.

I don't know what happens to cameras that are returned to retailers, I'd guess that some are used as demonstrators or sold as shop-soiled, or are disposed of on eBay as new "white box" items. Maybe they get returned to Canon by the more honest dealers, but AFAIK Canon don't sell refurbished gear to the public, so I don't know what the route is.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 4, 2022)

entoman said:


> Maybe they get returned to Canon by the more honest dealers, but AFAIK Canon don't sell refurbished gear to the public, so I don't know what the route is.







__





Shop Canon Cameras, Refurbished Cameras | Canon U.S.A, Inc.


Shop our selection of Cameras, . Explore specs, colors, and other features from Canon U.S.A., Inc. to find the right product for your n




www.usa.canon.com


----------



## entoman (Nov 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was referring to the situation in the UK neuro (see earlier posts). I don't think Canon sell refurbished gear to the public here.


----------



## esglord (Nov 4, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Decent price on refurb EOS R actually. Not going to buy that, but out of curiosity, do you or anyone else know if there a limit on shutter count that Canon will resell as refurbished?


----------



## Alastair Norcross (Nov 4, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Pre-buffer finally makes it on a Canon body!


R7 has pre-buffer. M6II had it (in a cropped mode) 3 years ago.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Nov 4, 2022)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Yes, i did but i don't think Samyang is a cloner. They have quite original lens designs. Yongnuo was/is a cloner.


Samyang/Rokinon do not have the best reputation for quality here in Canada so I tend to be both dismissive and obviously ignorant (I did not know they were Korean built) of their offerings.

As a self confessed lens snob I will defer to those that have used and liked the results they get from these lenses.


----------



## Johnw (Nov 4, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> As a self confessed lens snob I will defer to those that have used and liked the results they get from these lenses.



Some of their lenses have quite superior edge to edge sharpness and corner rendering for full field astro images.


----------



## amorse (Nov 4, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Samyang/Rokinon do not have the best reputation for quality here in Canada so I tend to be both dismissive and obviously ignorant (I did not know they were Korean built) of their offerings.
> 
> As a self confessed lens snob I will defer to those that have used and liked the results they get from these lenses.


I have a samyang/rokinon 14 f/2.8 and I'm pretty happy with what it puts out, especially at the price point. Also in Canada, and I seemed to get a good copy. I initially got it for night sky stuff, but I've found the quality sufficient to compete with my EF 16-35 f/4 during the day, especially if I want just a bit of extra breathing room for cropping. Actually, I took one of my favourite images lately (below) with my samyang/rokinon 14mm f/2.8, so I'd argue you can indeed get reasonably quality out of some of their lenses. Obviously it comes with sacrifices, but for like $299 US I'm not one to complain!


----------



## scyrene (Nov 4, 2022)

amorse said:


> I have a samyang/rokinon 14 f/2.8 and I'm pretty happy with what it puts out, especially at the price point. Also in Canada, and I seemed to get a good copy. I initially got it for night sky stuff, but I've found the quality sufficient to compete with my EF 16-35 f/4 during the day, especially if I want just a bit of extra breathing room for cropping. Actually, I took one of my favourite images lately (below) with my samyang/rokinon 14mm f/2.8, so I'd argue you can indeed get reasonably quality out of some of their lenses. Obviously it comes with sacrifices, but for like $299 US I'm not one to complain!
> 
> View attachment 206147


Lovely shot 

I had a Samyang 14mm f/2.8 a few years ago, it was very handy for the price. However now there's the RF 16mm, I couldn't recommend the Samyang, which is 1/4 cheaper in the UK and has AF (even for the loss of 2mm). If I still had the third party lens, I wouldn't have got the Canon one, however.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Nov 4, 2022)

amorse said:


> I have a samyang/rokinon 14 f/2.8 and I'm pretty happy with what it puts out, especially at the price point. Also in Canada, and I seemed to get a good copy. I initially got it for night sky stuff, but I've found the quality sufficient to compete with my EF 16-35 f/4 during the day, especially if I want just a bit of extra breathing room for cropping. Actually, I took one of my favourite images lately (below) with my samyang/rokinon 14mm f/2.8, so I'd argue you can indeed get reasonably quality out of some of their lenses. Obviously it comes with sacrifices, but for like $299 US I'm not one to complain!
> 
> View attachment 206147


That is a really nice shot.

As a software and hardware developer I am a gear head and I love getting new toys but I think we can all agree our gear only plays a small role in getting great images. Being there so you can get "The shot" is for me what really matters most. 

You were clearly their and you got "The Shot" - I love mountain glow in Banff and Jasper and seek it out at least once every year.

I like my RF glass because I trust it and I trust CPS Canada to always support me if I need it but clearly being their and having the eye\skill to get the shot is not limited to what gear you have. 100 years of amazing photos is all the proof we need for that.

Anyway, sorry for the side bar everyone.


----------



## drisley (Nov 4, 2022)

jam05 said:


> That's all it is. Complete firmware updates. An antique image sensor that is not even a BSI CMOS. A plain CMOS sensor. If you're impressed with firmware coding and 40fps electronic shutter only, waste your money. Any tech savy person knows the difference betweeen hardware and firmware. Heck Nikon did a recent firmware update to its Z9 and stated that its a entirely new camera.


This has to be one of the dumbest statements I've ever seen on a forum: First says the R6 II is only firmware updates, but admits the sensor is different. The sensor is the most important part of a camera, and it's changed (hardware) but this guy calls this "firmware". LOL What is he smoking?
BSI is more of a marketing term than anything. The Sony A7IV for example has a BSI sensor and yet it has more noise and slower readout (and more rolling shutter) than the R6 sensor that is not BSI. Go figure. 
The R5 has waaaaaay better sensor readout speed, waaay less rolling shutter and lower noise than the Sony A7RIV. The CMOS R5 has 15 ms readout and the BSI A7RIV has a slothy 62.5 ms readout. The Canon is not a BSI sensor and the Sony is. Go figure once again.
The R6 II has no overheating, no crop 4K. The camera doesn't even get hot (the R6 did). This is not because of firmware. The body layout is different, and now you can switch quickly from video to photo mode with a BUTTON (hardware). You can even save custom functions for video and photo separately because of this new button. This is not firmware obviously. The new R6 II sensor apparently has slightly faster readout than the R6 (which is again waaaay faster than the BSI Sony A7IV sensor
And, the R6 II is cheaper than the R6 when released which is my fav part (R6 was $3499 and the R6 II is $3299 in Canada).
If you want to talk about "just firmware" you'd be talking about the Sony A7RV. It has the same sensor as the A7RIV. It's basically the same with new AF and a few new settings. Oh and a new LCD screen. 
"Stacked" sensor or "Global" sensor is far more meaningful than "BSI". A sloppy BSI sensor (as seems to be the case with many Sony sensors) will underdeliver vs a well designed CMOS sensor (as in the R5/R6/R6 II vs the A7R/A7 lineup). Some people as this poster just eat up these marketing terms for breakfast! They love it more than real world results.


----------



## drisley (Nov 4, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Again, in Australia you are at the mercy of the increased cost of Canon glass and bodies because they only offer 5 year warranties. Sony offers a 2 years warranty.
> 
> If you were to buy the RF 135 from the US with Australian dollars it would cost you $3303.95 at the current exchange rate and would have no Australian warranty. Yes $665 is a lot to pay for an extra 3 years of warranty but still comparing US pricing to Australian is not really apples to apples because of the extra warranty.
> 
> ...


I'd rather get the Sigma 135 1.8 for $1500 cdn with a 7 year warranty vs the Canon for over twice the price with a 1 year warranty for sure.


----------



## amorse (Nov 4, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Lovely shot
> 
> I had a Samyang 14mm f/2.8 a few years ago, it was very handy for the price. However now there's the RF 16mm, I couldn't recommend the Samyang, which is 1/4 cheaper in the UK and has AF (even for the loss of 2mm). If I still had the third party lens, I wouldn't have got the Canon one, however.


Thanks! Yeah, I've been planning on retiring the lens (and the EF 16-35 f/4) in favour of the 15-35 f/2.8 whenever I move to RF just to reduce the size of my kit by a lens. For the price it's really hard to beat, and part of me wishes an RF version would be available as well, but then again, I may not get as lucky with respect to copy variation twice!


----------



## GoranS (Nov 4, 2022)

Now put this new 24mpx sensor in a cheap body, cripple the video side and fps (10 mech/ 10 elec) - all for 999 usd or less. Et voila - RP successor.


----------



## tomislavmoze (Nov 4, 2022)

I sold my R6 today for 1850$ after two years of use as a second body I got it brand new on the release date without tax for 2200$ (then it was more in $ since $ was not this strong) If I consider i rented it few times basically It didn't lose me any money at all, it was an easy sell for the price with 24k shutter count.
And I sold it in less than 12 hours after posting in on the local market. So to all that are saying that the original R6 was not a good camera the market says differently cause the interest was incredible. My friend sold his also today for the same price. For me and him it was worth switching to the R6 mk2 just cause the cameras already paid for themselves and basically the switch was without money lost in the transition (it was the opposite) and it will make our video and photo work easier.
I have to say although I'm happy for getting a new "toy" It was really hard to sell the R6 cause It was one of the most fun cameras to use I had and I owned basically every canon except 1dxmk2 and mk3. I often took the R6 instead of R5 for a shoot cause It was more fun  And I can't explain why cause I do love my R5


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## Jonathan Thill (Nov 4, 2022)

drisley said:


> I'd rather get the Sigma 135 1.8 for $1500 cdn with a 7 year warranty vs the Canon for over twice the price with a 1 year warranty for sure.


Without a doubt Sigma offers great value for users 

My requirements are to have all my gear covered by CPS as that is the fastest path to having issues resolved for me.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Nov 4, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> I sold my R6 today for 1850$ after two years of use as a second body I got it brand new on the release date without tax for 2200$ (then it was more in $ since $ was not this strong) If I consider i rented it few times basically It didn't lose me any money at all, it was an easy sell for the price with 24k shutter count.
> And I sold it in less than 12 hours after posting in on the local market. So to all that are saying that the original R6 was not a good camera the market says differently cause the interest was incredible. My friend sold his also today for the same price. For me and him it was worth switching to the R6 mk2 just cause the cameras already paid for themselves and basically the switch was without money lost in the transition (it was the opposite) and it will make our video and photo work easier.
> I have to say although I'm happy for getting a new "toy" It was really hard to sell the R6 cause It was one of the most fun cameras to use I had and I owned basically every canon except 1dxmk2 and mk3. I often took the R6 instead of R5 for a shoot cause It was more fun  And I can't explain why cause I do love my R5


When I was selling my R6 and R5 a few months back the R6 was snapped up within a few days of posting to Craigslist and the R5 took almost a month to sell. 

Got $2600 cdn for the R6 with 2 OEM batteries, the shutter count was under 2K so pretty much new. I had really only used it as a webcam.


----------



## john1970 (Nov 4, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Impressive! But some will complain about charts... Not me.


I am impressed as well.


neuroanatomist said:


> Same flash power as a 600EX and same master capabilities, so IMO a good replacement for those with a compatible camera.
> 
> I was hoping for an EL-1 MkII with a native multifunction shoe mount. Still, the EL-5 has the same guide number, zoom range, and max power as the EL-1, but lower min power, and passive instead of active cooling.
> 
> ...


Upon further consideration and realizing that the EL-5 will work with all future EOS R cameras I purchased one as well. For $399 it is not prohibitively expensive and the same max power as the significantly more costly EL-1. I will not have it until March 2023, but that is okay.


----------



## David - Sydney (Nov 5, 2022)

entoman said:


> I was referring to the situation in the UK neuro (see earlier posts). I don't think Canon sell refurbished gear to the public here.


As far as I know, the US is the only market for Canon refurbished bodies/lenses. I would imagine that bodies for non-US markets would be slightly different for radio/certifications so they couldn't be shipped back to the US for resale there but I could be wrong. Clearly, power adapters/documentation/labelling are different in different markets though for bodies.
I could see that lenses are global models though and could be shipped to the US.


----------



## David - Sydney (Nov 5, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Samyang/Rokinon do not have the best reputation for quality here in Canada so I tend to be both dismissive and obviously ignorant (I did not know they were Korean built) of their offerings.
> 
> As a self confessed lens snob I will defer to those that have used and liked the results they get from these lenses.


I have used the Samyang 14mm/2.8 for a long time now for astro landscapes and the coma performance is great. Far better than the Canon 14mm L for instance and a bargain at the price. Manual focus isn't an issue at night. Image taken close to Sydney when the moon was setting (centre glow) and light pollution is still an issue but a fun night


----------



## David - Sydney (Nov 5, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Without a doubt Sigma offers great value for users
> 
> My requirements are to have all my gear covered by CPS as that is the fastest path to having issues resolved for me.


CPS requirements and support varies widely per region/country. Need to have your primary income from photography to get it in Australia irrespective of your collection of stuff.


----------



## HenryL (Nov 5, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> I have used the Samyang 14mm/2.8 for a long time now for astro landscapes and the coma performance is great. Far better than the Canon 14mm L for instance and a bargain at the price. Manual focus isn't an issue at night. Image taken close to Sydney when the moon was setting (centre glow) and light pollution is still an issue but a fun night
> 
> View attachment 206175


Beautiful photo! Might I ask to clarify exactly which Samyang 14/2.8 you folks are discussing? I see multiple "flavors" listed at B&H and am interested in a single inexpensive prime to play with for astro. Thanks!


----------



## amorse (Nov 5, 2022)

HenryL said:


> Beautiful photo! Might I ask to clarify exactly which Samyang 14/2.8 you folks are discussing? I see multiple "flavors" listed at B&H and am interested in a single inexpensive prime to play with for astro. Thanks!


This is the one I'm using, and I've had it for almost 9 years now! I think there is a series ii and an f/2.4 which may be a better choice today, but I have no experience with those. I've never really felt the urge to update it because it's not a high-use lens for me, but when I need something wide and fast it's my go-to and it's almost always been good enough for my needs. 









Rokinon 14mm f/2.8 IF ED UMC Lens For Canon EF


Buy Rokinon 14mm f/2.8 IF ED UMC Lens For Canon EF featuring Ultra Wide-Angle 14mm Lens, Compatible w/ Full Frame & APS-C Cameras, Hybrid Aspherical Lenses -- Sharp Images, Multi-Layer Coating to Reduce Flare, Manual Focus Lens, Built-In Petal-Type Lens Hood. Review Rokinon null




www.bhphotovideo.com


----------



## David - Sydney (Nov 5, 2022)

HenryL said:


> Beautiful photo! Might I ask to clarify exactly which Samyang 14/2.8 you folks are discussing? I see multiple "flavors" listed at B&H and am interested in a single inexpensive prime to play with for astro. Thanks!


Just using the basic one https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/859167-REG/Samyang_SY14M_C_14mm_f_2_8_Super_Wide.html
You just can't beat the value for money - especially if you are not using it a lot. Always check your copy though. I am sure that they have improved their quality but many years ago you could get a poor copy.
The 14mm XP/2.4 is supposed to be better and will be slightly brighter. Certainly better made externally. Check the review sites for them both to see if they fit what you are looking for.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 5, 2022)

xps said:


> Isn´t it, that in some US states taxes vary from state to state? Maybe someone from US can tell us.


State to state, county to county, town to town.


----------



## Berowne (Nov 5, 2022)

john1970 said:


> The MTF Chart on the new Canon RF 135 mm f1.8 lens from Canon Japan​​MTF characteristic chart​


Thanks for sharing this. Results at 30 lp/mm are nice with about 95% contrast but not interesting. Being more expensive and a new develpement, the question is whether Canon can compete in terms of resolution with the 135mm G-Master. Unclo Rog testet the Sony-Lens and did find, that it delivered about 30% contrast at 200 lp/mm. More Ultra High-Resolution MTF Experiments. So this is a meaningful measurement and i would love to see those results. 
Greetings from Frankfurt am Main - Andreas


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Nov 5, 2022)

Berowne said:


> Thanks for sharing this. Results at 30 lp/mm are nice with about 95% contrast but not interesting. Being more expensive and a new develpement, the question is whether Canon can compete in terms of resolution with the 135mm G-Master. Unclo Rog testet the Sony-Lens and did find, that it delivered about 30% contrast at 200 lp/mm. More Ultra High-Resolution MTF Experiments. So this is a meaningful measurement and i would love to see those results.
> Greetings from Frankfurt am Main - Andreas


Soz but I don't get the whole sharpness junkie thang. It's way more than sharp enough. In fact i would wager that this lens will outperform 99.9% of the photographers who actually get to buy / use one. I've NEVER had a playing client who said...ooo....your image is nice...only ruined by the fact that it could have been a tad sharper if you'd used Sony glass....You buy this lens because you want this lens for it's photographic charisma, not because it competes on a Spurious MFT chart.


----------



## Berowne (Nov 5, 2022)

You missed the argument. I could have also mentioned the Zeiss Otus or the Canon 35L Mk. II which have good ultra-high resolution results. MTF-charts with Data at 10 lp/mm are meaningless, because every lens performs well in this area. 
And please Mr. Cooper, avoid slang language when talking to people. Das ist unfein. 
Dankeschön - Andreas


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

I could not care less about any new canon product from their R lineup until they open RF lens to 3rd party manufacturers. Out of principle. I dont want to sink money into Canon lenses only. At the moment Canon is offering us no options, just take it or leave it.


----------



## AlanF (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> I could not care less about any new canon product from their R lineup until they open RF lens to 3rd party manufacturers. Out of principle. I dont want to sink money into Canon lenses only. At the moment Canon is offering us no options, just take it or leave it.


That's your choice, and you are fully entitled to it. But, what other manufacturer is offering a cheap 100-400mm lens that is incredibly light, small and sharp, and an 800mm/11 that is also cheap, sharp and not heavy? Those, alone, have me wedded to R.


----------



## HMC11 (Nov 5, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> I often took the R6 instead of R5 for a shoot cause It was more fun  And I can't explain why cause I do love my R5


I am intrigued by you saying that the R6 was more fun than the R5. Could you please elaborate on what constitutes 'fun' ? Handling? Dare to use in challenging conditions because it is cheaper and hence wouldn't feel too much pain if it drops etc? Easier to do post because of smaller file size?


----------



## sanj (Nov 5, 2022)

Viggo said:


> The 135 L looks like it has my name written on it, but is the AF that much faster than the 85 L? If it is then it looks really tempting ..


I never had any issue with the focusing speed of 85L


----------



## Kit. (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> I could not care less about any new canon product from their R lineup until they open RF lens to 3rd party manufacturers.


Technically, you could. You could care at least one comment less.


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

Kit. said:


> Technically, you could. You could care at least one comment less.


Sure, and you could learn to read till the end of the sentence where ... ah forget it, you dont read this far anyway.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 5, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Just using the basic one https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/859167-REG/Samyang_SY14M_C_14mm_f_2_8_Super_Wide.html
> You just can't beat the value for money - especially if you are not using it a lot. Always check your copy though. I am sure that they have improved their quality but many years ago you could get a poor copy.


I have the same lens (Rokinon branded), for the same reason. The first Roki 14/2.8 I bought was not a good copy, I exchanged it and the second was good. 

I find that if a narrower FoV works, the RF 28-70/2 is also good for astro (and identical exposure to the 14/2.8 in terms of avoiding star trails).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> I could not care less about any new canon product from their R lineup until they open RF lens to 3rd party manufacturers. Out of principle. I dont want to sink money into Canon lenses only. At the moment Canon is offering us no options, just take it or leave it.


That’s your choice. I think it’s a logical one if you cannot afford the RF lenses Canon offers. Many of them are excellent, and if your only reason for not buying them is principle, that seems rather silly.


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> That’s your choice. I think it’s a logical one if you cannot afford the RF lenses Canon offers. Many of them are excellent, and if your only reason for not buying them is principle, that seems rather silly.


I hear you, but just like some people like SUV`s and Trucks, other love Mustangs and muscle cars, i love to have options to choose what i want, not be limited in my choices on just this here one brand. Because there are better options, there are also worse and then there are options Canon will never offer and someone else will, because they want to fill the gap and might be just what i need.


----------



## Kit. (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Sure, and you could learn to read till the end of the sentence where ... ah forget it, you dont read this far anyway.


You mean, I could care more about your opinion.

Technically, I probably could. But you are not cooperating.


----------



## Viggo (Nov 5, 2022)

sanj said:


> I never had any issue with the focusing speed of 85L


Depends on what you shoot. I shoot a lot of kids and animals and it just makes a clacking sound and then racks and misses when someone jumps forward. It’s very good, by all means, but I would love to catch some of the stuff I could with my old 1dx2 and 200 f2…


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> I hear you, but just like some people like SUV`s and Trucks, other love Mustangs and muscle cars, i love to have options to choose what i want, not be limited in my choices on just this here one brand. Because there are better options, there are also worse and then there are options Canon will never offer and someone else will, because they want to fill the gap and might be just what i need.


Between native RF lenses and the vast selection of EF-mount lenses (Canon and 3rd party) that can be easily adapted to an R body, I find it difficult to believe you can’t find lenses to meet your needs. But perhaps you also choose to avoid using the adapter out of principle. 

The reality is that even with just the RF lenses, Canon meets the majority of buyers’ needs. To borrow your analogy, there are SUVs and trucks, sedans and station wagons, and even a couple of sports coupes in the RF lineup. You’re avoiding it on principle because they don’t have a hybrid semi-trailer and a convertible, despite them having stated many more models will be launched soon. 

Personally, the R3 meets my needs for a body. Where an RF lens offers benefits to me over the EF counterpart, I switched. Where an RF lens offered something unique that I wanted (e.g., 28-70/2), I bought it. My existing EF-mount lenses (Canon and 3rd party) that I saw no point in replacing (e.g. 100L macro, 600/4 II) or for which there’s no RF version (TS-E 17/24, MP-E 65) work perfectly well with the adapter. In fact, lenses like the 11-24/4L and TS-E 17 work even better with the adapter, because I can easily drop the vND or CPL filters into the adapter instead of the huge front filters needed for those lenses. 

Not sure why anyone would let ‘principles’ like yours get in the way of their photography.


----------



## sanj (Nov 5, 2022)

mxwphoto said:


> To all those who complain about the camera's spec sheet not being up to par/expectations ergo "I will sell off all my Canon gear at a discount and spend a ton of money to buy the other brand's replacement!", please take a deep breath, go out, find some inspiration and shoot interesting photos or video.
> 
> Photography and film have been around for over a hundred years and it has always been about the stunning resulting product be it subject, the decisive moment, the grandeur, etc etc. It has never been about what camera was used.
> 
> ...


Sure sure. But, kind sir there were a lot of missed shots and the IQ here is not that great.


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## Cyborx (Nov 5, 2022)

The 2499 US Dollar price is VAT included! 
So if you have a company in the US, you pay even less! Why charge 3000 for Europe and 2499 for US? Canon is bullying us.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 5, 2022)

Cyborx said:


> The 2499 US Dollar price is VAT included!
> So if you have a company in the US, you pay even less! Why charge 3000 for Europe and 2499 for US? Canon is bullying us.


We don’t have VAT in the US, but there are no taxes included in the US $2499 MSRP. This is the second time you’ve posted that lie.

There are also no blanket tax exemptions for companies. Many states do allow exemptions for R&D uses. So if I buy a test tube or a spectrophotometer for my company there’s no tax and I pay just the retail price, but if I buy a pen or a printer for my company it is subject to sales/use tax on top of the MSRP.

Try to get your fact straight, or at least read the posts in the thread since this was already discussed and your first erroneous post was refuted.


----------



## SaP34US (Nov 5, 2022)

In the US each state has its own tax added at time of buying an item and some don’t states have sales tax. So in California 9.25% sales tax(in LA ) would be $2,730.15 whereas in North Slope Alaska 3% it would be $2,573.97 and a few state like Oregon where there is no sales tax it would be $2499.


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## entoman (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> At the moment Canon is offering us no options, just take it or leave it.


Really? Are you serious?

I've counted a minimum of 31 Canon RF lenses, focal lengths from 14mm to 1200mm, UK prices from £209 to £19,099, plus 2 tele-extenders.
On top of that there are at least 20 specialised manual Laowa lenses in RF mount, plus 2 from Kipon and 2 from Samyang/Rokinon.

... and if that isn't enough, there are literally hundreds of lenses in EF mount that are fully compatible via the EF-RF adaptors and will work absolutely perfectly.


----------



## reisi007 (Nov 5, 2022)

entoman said:


> Really? Are you serious?
> 
> I've counted a minimum of 31 Canon RF lenses, focal lengths from 14mm to 1200mm, UK prices from £209 to £19,099, plus 2 tele-extenders.
> On top of that there are at least 20 specialised manual Laowa lenses in RF mount, plus 2 from Kipon and 2 from Samyang/Rokinon.
> ...


There is no alternative for the rf 50mm 1,8 which offers better AF or a wider aperture - except for the 50 1,2.


I would not consider that a small upgrade. Neither is there a 32 / 56mm 1.4 for APS-C.

NO 50 1.4 or comparable....


----------



## entoman (Nov 5, 2022)

reisi007 said:


> There is no alternative for the rf 50mm 1,8 which offers better AF or a wider aperture - except for the 50 1,2.
> 
> 
> I would not consider that a small upgrade. Neither is there a 32 / 56mm 1.4 for APS-C.
> ...


So save money and get the RF 50/1.8 - are you really telling me that half a stop is gonna make a difference? Come on.


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

Kit. said:


> You mean, I could care more about your opinion.
> 
> Technically, I probably could. But you are not cooperating.


Technically you could also jump off into the woods and stop ... and yes ... here we loose you since you dont read past this point.


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Between native RF lenses and the vast selection of EF-mount lenses (Canon and 3rd party) that can be easily adapted to an R body, I find it difficult to believe you can’t find lenses to meet your needs. But perhaps you also choose to avoid using the adapter out of principle.
> 
> The reality is that even with just the RF lenses, Canon meets the majority of buyers’ needs. To borrow your analogy, there are SUVs and trucks, sedans and station wagons, and even a couple of sports coupes in the RF lineup. You’re avoiding it on principle because they don’t have a hybrid semi-trailer and a convertible, despite them having stated many more models will be launched soon.
> 
> ...


I find that adapted lenses argument is being brought so much that its being carbon copy without any second thought. I know its not you personaly, but its ultimate "but" excuse for not letting 3rd party lenses into RF market. No .. EF lenses are not up to par with most modern lenses, on Emount, Z mount even, so why would i want adapted lenses on RF mount? I want options, to get what i believe is better lens for my needs. I dont own 85mm Canon lens, mostly because on EF mount its subpar compared to almost everything. On RF there are no options other then overpriced lens that i would never ever ever pay for, but there are options by other manufacturers that are almost up there to Canon RF offering, with nicer price tag, but more importantly .. different glass characteristics i actually prefer. So ... to conclude ... EF bad, RF expensive and offers almost nothing at the moment i would consider great for my needs and 3rd party makes Canon prices more competitive when i want to get Canon lenses.


----------



## reisi007 (Nov 5, 2022)

entoman said:


> So save money and get the RF 50/1.8 - are you really telling me that half a stop is gonna make a difference? Come on.


For me the show AF is more problematic than if it were 1,2 1,4 1,8 or 2.

No matter how dark, I want an instant autofocus


----------



## scyrene (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> I find that adapted lenses argument is being brought so much that its being carbon copy without any second thought. I know its not you personaly, but its ultimate "but" excuse for not letting 3rd party lenses into RF market. No .. EF lenses are not up to par with most modern lenses, on Emount, Z mount even, so why would i want adapted lenses on RF mount? I want options, to get what i believe is better lens for my needs. I dont own 85mm Canon lens, mostly because on EF mount its subpar compared to almost everything. On RF there are no options other then overpriced lens that i would never ever ever pay for, but there are options by other manufacturers that are almost up there to Canon RF offering, with nicer price tag, but more importantly .. different glass characteristics i actually prefer. So ... to conclude ... EF bad, RF expensive and offers almost nothing at the moment i would consider great for my needs and 3rd party makes Canon prices more competitive when i want to get Canon lenses.


Wait, so... third party lenses are great, but EF lenses are terrible? Really? You're entitled to dislike the current offerings but it doesn't sound like you have a realistic understanding of what's available, nor what is likely to be. And ultimately, why not just go with another brand if it's so much better on the other side of the fence?


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## Del Paso (Nov 5, 2022)

reisi007 said:


> There is no alternative for the rf 50mm 1,8 which offers better AF or a wider aperture - except for the 50 1,2.
> 
> 
> I would not consider that a small upgrade. Neither is there a 32 / 56mm 1.4 for APS-C.
> ...


Easy.
Adapt the 1,4/50 Sigma in EF mount...


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## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Wait, so... third party lenses are great, but EF lenses are terrible? Really? You're entitled to dislike the current offerings but it doesn't sound like you have a realistic understanding of what's available, nor what is likely to be. And ultimately, why not just go with another brand if it's so much better on the other side of the fence?


Question ... why are you so invested in what i think? Changes nothing in your life. You have opinion, i have one too. I want open system, you have opinion. So lets agree that we dont agree and leave it at that.


----------



## Kit. (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Technically you could also jump off into the woods and stop ...


...start. Taking pictures using Canon (or non-Canon) lenses.



mihazero said:


> and yes ... here we loose you since you dont read past this point.


Have you wondered yourself what you are trying to achieve?


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

Kit. said:


> ...start. Taking pictures using Canon (or non-Canon) lenses.
> 
> 
> Have you wondered yourself what you are trying to achieve?


Nah, just stop.

Make you stop sending me messages and nag me? (whew that was hopefully short enough)


----------



## entoman (Nov 5, 2022)

reisi007 said:


> For me the show AF is more problematic than if it were 1,2 1,4 1,8 or 2.
> 
> No matter how dark, I want an instant autofocus


So you don't want to buy an RF body because a 50mm F1.8 won't focus fast enough for you in low light, is that right?

What body do you use currently?

Did you know that R5, R6 and R3 all focus extremely quickly in very low light? The R5 e.g. can AF down to a claimed EV-6 at F1.2 (equivalent to EV-5 at F1.8), and I think the R6 and R3 may AF in even lower light conditions. Current RF bodies can AF very accurately and extremely quickly with RF glass, noticeably faster than EF lenses.


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## tomislavmoze (Nov 5, 2022)

HMC11 said:


> I am intrigued by you saying that the R6 was more fun than the R5. Could you please elaborate on what constitutes 'fun' ? Handling? Dare to use in challenging conditions because it is cheaper and hence wouldn't feel too much pain if it drops etc? Easier to do post because of smaller file size?


I can't explain, I often decide to take it rather than the R5, maybe it is the less mpx and the fact that I have to frame perfect cause there is not much room for mistakes and also I do really like the image out of it, It reminds me of original 5d. I hope R6mk2 will follow with colour science...


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## Kit. (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Nah, just stop.
> 
> Make you stop sending me messages and nag me?


That could be easy to achieve...



mihazero said:


> (whew that was hopefully short enough)


...but you are obviously in want of something different.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> I find that adapted lenses argument is being brought so much that its being carbon copy without any second thought. I know its not you personaly, but its ultimate "but" excuse for not letting 3rd party lenses into RF market.


An ‘excuse’ is neither warranted nor needed. Canon has apparently made a business decision to block 3rd party lens makers (at least some) from selling RF-mount lenses. Given their dominance of the ILC market, it seems to be a sound business decision. If you don’t like it, that’s a you problem.


----------



## entoman (Nov 5, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> An ‘excuse’ is neither warranted nor needed. Canon has apparently made a business decision to block 3rd party lens makers (at least some) from selling RF-mount lenses. Given their dominance of the ILC market, it seems to be a sound business decision. If you don’t like it, that’s a you problem.


I can sympathise with people who want Tamron and Sigma glass in RF mount, simply because they are generally excellent lenses, and significantly cheaper than nearest equivalent RF glass. There are a few low-demand lenses "missing" from the Canon RF range that Tamron and Sigma historically have covered (e.g. 180mm macro with AF and IS), and which Canon are so far showing no signs of introducing, so Tamron and/or Sigma options would be nice. But we all knew what the position was before we opted into the RF system, and we all knew that a greater range of native lenses were available for Sony. Yet we all chose Canon, and some of us are still whingeing.


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## Skux (Nov 5, 2022)

It happens in every comment section about the R6.

"I boycott Canon, they blocked third party glass! The native lenses are overpriced!"

"You can adapt native and third party EF glass, it works just as well if not better, and you can get great deals on used..."

"No I don't want to."

Like what?


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Question ... why are you so invested in what i think? Changes nothing in your life. You have opinion, i have one too. I want open system, you have opinion. So lets agree that we dont agree and leave it at that.


Posting on a forum opens your opinion to criticism, if you did not want to have your opinion questioned why bother posting it. The simply matter is Canon does not appear to be open to sharing profits in a contracting market with anyone so they are offering customers all the choice they need.

Choices:

Pay less for 100% compatible RF STM glass
Pay More for 100% compatible RF L glass (which is mostly the same USD price as other 1st party glass)
Pay even less for Adapted EF glass either from Canon (with known compatibility) or from 3rd party's
That is a lot of choice.

Oh and I think you also spoke of the echo chamber of people saying "adapted glass" and you are tired of it. 

Well, I know I am tired of the BS about Canon blocking *All* 3rd party AF glass being repeated over and over. Unless I missed it there has been *1...* yep just *1* documented case of Canon telling a manufacture to stop and that is verifiable *Viltrox*. It has also been reported that the Viltrox RF 85mm was showing up as an EF 85mm in the Canon R bodies so it appears there was some funny business going on Viltrox's part. 

_“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it" - _The person that said that is a clown so I am not going to give him credit but sadly the echo chamber of the inter proves it out all the time. 

I get it you read on the internet that Canon was blocking all 3rd party AF glass but the there is simply nothing to back that up and the absent of proof is proof of nothing. 

If Sigma can find a way to reverse engineer the RF protocols that does not violate Canon's patents Canon has no choice but to let them play ball. That is up to Sigma and the rest of the reputable 3rd party glass makers to sort out. 

I am really really sick of having to point this out in thread after thread only for it to fall on deaf ears. 

Jonathan


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## entoman (Nov 5, 2022)

R5 and R6 were both announced on the same day - 09 July 2020.

Wouldn't it be nice if the R5 Mkii was announced before the end of the year?

Canon might make a 90-ish MP "R5S" sometime in 2023 or 2024, but I'd much rather have an upgraded "R5 Mkii"...


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## Del Paso (Nov 5, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Posting on a forum opens your opinion to criticism, if you did not want to have your opinion questioned why bother posting it. The simply matter is Canon does not appear to be open to sharing profits in a contracting market with anyone so they are offering customers all the choice they need.
> 
> Choices:
> 
> ...


Thanks for your post!


----------



## Del Paso (Nov 5, 2022)

entoman said:


> R5 and R6 were both announced on the same day - 09 July 2020.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if the R5 Mkii was announced before the end of the year?
> 
> Canon might make a 90-ish MP "R5S" sometime in 2023 or 2024, but I'd much rather have an upgraded "R5 Mkii"...


An R5 Mk.II with improved eye-control AF? As soon as it gets announced, I'll order one. The various AF control buttons are no use for me, my right thumb having grown insensitive.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Question ... why are you so invested in what i think? Changes nothing in your life. You have opinion, i have one too. I want open system, you have opinion. So lets agree that we dont agree and leave it at that.


I have no problem with disagreeing, and you're right, it makes no difference to my life whatsoever. However, posting a single reply is not being "so invested". This is a forum, people respond to what others post. Is this your first time?


----------



## scyrene (Nov 5, 2022)

entoman said:


> R5 and R6 were both announced on the same day - 09 July 2020.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if the R5 Mkii was announced before the end of the year?
> 
> Canon might make a 90-ish MP "R5S" sometime in 2023 or 2024, but I'd much rather have an upgraded "R5 Mkii"...


Given how quickly we went from the first rumour of the R6 to its announcement, anything is possible, but my gut feeling is given the R5 contained more novel tech (primarily its sensor), they'll want to milk it a bit more first.


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## Johnw (Nov 5, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Choices:
> 
> Pay less for 100% compatible RF STM glass
> Pay More for 100% compatible RF L glass (which is mostly the same USD price as other 1st party glass)
> ...


Also:
4. 3rd party RF manual focus lenses


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> An ‘excuse’ is neither warranted nor needed. Canon has apparently made a business decision to block 3rd party lens makers (at least some) from selling RF-mount lenses. Given their dominance of the ILC market, it seems to be a sound business decision. If you don’t like it, that’s a you problem.


Ok ...


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

scyrene said:


> I have no problem with disagreeing, and you're right, it makes no difference to my life whatsoever. However, posting a single reply is not being "so invested". This is a forum, people respond to what others post. Is this your first time?


No, but I have no interest in being convinced or debating other points of view on this matter. It was a statement, not a question or invitation to debate. I respect Your and other opinion as yours, but not really into being bullied by more then one person or being ridiculed because i dont find popular opinion "CANON RF IS THE BEST ... bla bla bla" to be my cup of tea. Please ... just scroll past. Do not hit reply.


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## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Posting on a forum opens your opinion to criticism, if you did not want to have your opinion questioned why bother posting it. The simply matter is Canon does not appear to be open to sharing profits in a contracting market with anyone so they are offering customers all the choice they need.
> 
> Choices:
> 
> ...


I am going to respond to this purely because of so much effort on your part. Thank you for long answer. No i do not agree, but also dont want to debate or talk about it. Please as i said to someone else. Just let it go.


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## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

Kit. said:


> That could be easy to achieve...
> 
> 
> ...but you are obviously in want of something different.


I could go for some kung pao chicken right now.


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## AlanF (Nov 5, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> An R5 Mk.II with improved eye-control AF? As soon as it gets announced, I'll order one. The various AF control buttons are no use for me, my right thumb having grown insensitive.


That's terrible. You can't use BBF presumably, and have to rely on the shutter button?


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## Scenes (Nov 5, 2022)

ProAV preview show the R6 mk2 recording 4K 25 for 1hr 45m filling the card with no overheating and half a battery left.


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## entoman (Nov 5, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> An R5 Mk.II with improved eye-control AF? As soon as it gets announced, I'll order one. The various AF control buttons are no use for me, my right thumb having grown insensitive.


I'm not at all bothered about eye-control AF, I generally just place the central AF spot over the subject and let the camera track it as I recompose. For landscapes I generally focus manually, and for macro I prefocus manually at the desired reproduction ratio and then rock back and forth until the subject is in sharp focus. But I appreciate it would be handy for you, I'd just turn it off.

What I'd like most to see in the "R5 Mkii" are:

Sensor with better DR and better mid-high ISO performance (45MP is enough for me).
Faster readout.
Much longer battery life.
"Stickier" autofocus, that works in all AF zone options.
Higher resolution EVF with DSLR-like natural light simulation.
Exposure bracketing in electronic shutter burst.
Choice of slow/medium/hi-speed bursts with electronic shutter.
Elimination of freezes and lockups.


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## scyrene (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> No, but I have no interest in being convinced or debating other points of view on this matter. It was a statement, not a question or invitation to debate. I respect Your and other opinion as yours, but not really into being bullied by more then one person or being ridiculed because i dont find popular opinion "CANON RF IS THE BEST ... bla bla bla" to be my cup of tea. Please ... just scroll past. Do not hit reply.


Nope. If you think the responses you've had constitute bullying, perhaps the internet is not the place for you. Also: you don't get to dictate what happens here.


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## Skyscraperfan (Nov 5, 2022)

About the VAT discussion: I noticed that B&H offers a credit card and if you use that credit card to buy something there, they will pay you the taxes back. At least Jared Polin mentioned that in one of his last video. Is that really true? That sounds much to good to be true. What are the caveats of that? Can you really buy an R3 with that credit card and you will not have to pay the VAT?


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## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Nope. If you think the responses you've had constitute bullying, perhaps the internet is not the place for you. Also: you don't get to dictate what happens here.


Nor do you. So for the last time, please go away and let me be.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> No, but I have no interest in being convinced or debating other points of view on this matter. It was a statement, not a question or invitation to debate. I respect Your and other opinion as yours, but not really into being bullied by more then one person or being ridiculed because i dont find popular opinion "CANON RF IS THE BEST ... bla bla bla" to be my cup of tea. Please ... just scroll past. Do not hit reply.


If you don’t want to be challenged, just don’t post here. That’s how forums work. Probably no one expects to convince you to change your opinion, but nor should you just except people to ‘just scroll past’. 

As for being bullied, lol. As was previously stated, if a few people posting replies that challenge your opinion is your definition of bullying, you can’t handle the internet.


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## AlanF (Nov 5, 2022)

Skyscraperfan said:


> About the VAT discussion: I noticed that B&H offers a credit card and if you use that credit card to buy something there, they will pay you the taxes back. At least Jared Polin mentioned that in one of his last video. Is that really true? That sounds much to good to be true. What are the caveats of that? Can you really buy an R3 with that credit card and you will not have to pay the VAT?


It’s been discussed several times here in the past few days. Yes, it’s true - they have a PayBoo credit card. It’s B&H‘s way of giving a discount without ostensibly offering a lower price than Canon recommends.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Nor do you. So for the last time, please go away and let me be.


Why should he? Seems you don’t want people dictating to you, but you’re perfectly comfortable dictating to them. That’s called hypocrisy.


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> If you don’t want to be challenged, just don’t post here. That’s how forums work. Probably no one expects to convince you to change your opinion, but nor should you just except people to ‘just scroll past’.
> 
> As for being bullied, lol. As was previously stated, if a few people posting replies that challenge your opinion is your definition of bullying, you can’t handle the internet.


It seems to me that you dont understand when someone dont want to fight you but you keep on pushing like a drunk on friday night who is just too unaware when he is about to enter situation he is not equiped to handle. I find it like its a chum to a shark when someone dont want to argue. In other words ... people can have opinions, express them and then choose not to argue with other people. Its how world works too, not just forums. Oh and its called being functioning adult.


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## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Why should he? Seems you don’t want people dictating to you, but you’re perfectly comfortable dictating to them. That’s called hypocrisy.


Do You know what a devils advocate is? Its a person who argues for other people, while not being asked to or invited into said conversation. This is actual definition of such person. "A person who expresses a contentious opinion in order to provoke debate or test the strength of the opposing arguments". Me ... i find you boring.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Nov 5, 2022)

Johnw said:


> Another nice feature is shutter speed of 1/16000 is now available in electronic mode.


But does ES still lock us out of 14-bit like it does on the R5/6 even when not shooting in high-speed modes? I don't want to get bumped down to 12-bit just because I want to shoot a daylight portrait wide open or want to reduce vibration for landscape.


----------



## entoman (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Nor do you. So for the last time, please go away and let me be.


You need to realise that the whole purpose of a forum is to DEBATE. That's why we're here. Sometimes we are able to pass on valuable information to HELP others get the best out of their gear. Why take things so personally? No one has "bullied" you, they've just given their opinions, which you are free to accept, ignore or refute.


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## Del Paso (Nov 5, 2022)

AlanF said:


> That's terrible. You can't use BBF presumably, and have to rely on the shutter button?


That's exactly what I'm doing, but it's no major issue, since, for many subjects, I focus manually.
Actually, I "suffer"  from a loss of sensitivity, but can still repair mechanical items like clocks or cameras. The difficulty is only in locating small protuberances, i.e. AF buttons. Not tragic at all, but eye control AF would be optimal for me...


----------



## Jethro (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Do You know what a devils advocate is? Its a person who argues for other people, while not being asked to or invited into said conversation. This is actual definition of such person. "A person who expresses a contentious opinion in order to provoke debate or test the strength of the opposing arguments". Me ... i find you boring.


This is a public forum, not a private discussion. If you don't want to hear / see a particular other poster, block them. But you ain't going to change the reality of a public forum. If you really want to close off this 'discussion', why keep postng increasingly pathetic responses?


----------



## Del Paso (Nov 5, 2022)

entoman said:


> I'm not at all bothered about eye-control AF, I generally just place the central AF spot over the subject and let the camera track it as I recompose. For landscapes I generally focus manually, and for macro I prefocus manually at the desired reproduction ratio and then rock back and forth until the subject is in sharp focus. But I appreciate it would be handy for you, I'd just turn it off.
> 
> What I'd like most to see in the "R5 Mkii" are:
> 
> ...


Yes, a more natural looking EVF would be fine.
And a count-down of available shots on SD and CF too (provided it hasn't been implemented yet on the R5). I have it on my Leica M and use it quite often, in order not to miss an "important" picture when the SD is almost full.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Oh and its called being functioning adult.


Funnily enough you're giving the opposite impression, imo.


----------



## entoman (Nov 5, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Do You know what a devils advocate is?


As a self-confessed "devils advocate" I can tell you that it can often be educational. It teaches me to challenge "standard" views. Sometimes I'm wrong and the other guy is right, which leads me to revise my opinion. Sometimes the other guy picks up a useful piece of information from me. That's how it works. On CR you can expect to be challenged, and you can expect a bit of banter. If you can't handle that, I think really you should try another site


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Funnily enough you're giving the opposite impression, imo.


Oddly enough you just cant let go.


----------



## mihazero (Nov 5, 2022)

entoman said:


> As a self-confessed "devils advocate" I can tell you that it can often be educational. It teaches me to challenge "standard" views. Sometimes I'm wrong and the other guy is right, which leads me to revise my opinion. Sometimes the other guy picks up a useful piece of information from me. That's how it works. On CR you can expect to be challenged, and you can expect a bit of banter. If you can't handle that, I think really you should try another site


I can respect that logic, and also well said. But as i said, as well .. One can choose not to debate or argue over certain topic if one so chooses.


----------



## mihazero (Nov 6, 2022)

Jethro said:


> This is a public forum, not a private discussion. If you don't want to hear / see a particular other poster, block them. But you ain't going to change the reality of a public forum. If you really want to close off this 'discussion', why keep postng increasingly pathetic responses?


I honestly can not believe how many people decided to educate me on what internet is all about. Also to impress on me what a pathetic response is (mostly by giving me direct example). I would love that i have singular opinion that no on else have and then see what would happen, but mine is actually quite common ... but for the life of me dont get what part of i dont want to argue people here dont get? Is it that they think they know better? That they are smarter and have the need to impress that as well? Let it go ...


----------



## Johnw (Nov 6, 2022)

mihazero said:


> Let it go ...



You should really consider taking your own advice as well. It takes two sides to keep an irrelevant argument going.


----------



## mihazero (Nov 6, 2022)

Johnw said:


> You should really consider taking your own advice as well. It takes two sides to keep an irrelevant argument going.


I agree ... so byeeee yall.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 6, 2022)

mihazero said:


> It seems to me that you dont understand when someone dont want to fight you but you keep on pushing like a drunk on friday night who is just too unaware when he is about to enter situation he is not equiped to handle.


Well trolled, Sir. 



mihazero said:


> I find it like its a chum to a shark when someone dont want to argue. In other words ... people can have opinions, express them and then choose not to argue with other people. Its how world works too, not just forums.


Some people can. Not you, apparently. 



mihazero said:


> Oh and its called being functioning adult.


Something to which you can aspire. Your progress to date has not been encouraging, but there is always hope.



mihazero said:


> Do You know what a devils advocate is? Its a person who argues for other people, while not being asked to or invited into said conversation. This is actual definition of such person. "A person who expresses a contentious opinion in order to provoke debate or test the strength of the opposing arguments". Me ... i find you boring.


I wonder…are you supposed to be the devil’s advocate in this scenario? Coming uninvited to a thread about new Canon product launches to express your dissatisfaction with Canon and ‘provoke debate’. If so, why did you then tell others not to respond? So…fail.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 6, 2022)

mihazero said:


> I agree ... so byeeee yall.


----------



## SNJ Ops (Nov 6, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Posting on a forum opens your opinion to criticism, if you did not want to have your opinion questioned why bother posting it. The simply matter is Canon does not appear to be open to sharing profits in a contracting market with anyone so they are offering customers all the choice they need.
> 
> Choices:
> 
> ...


In the Viltrox case they said in that message to the customer that they weren’t the only company to have been stopped from making RF glass.


Jonathan Thill said:


> _“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it" - _The person that said that is a clown so I am not going to give him credit but sadly the echo chamber of the inter proves it out all the time.
> 
> I get it you read on the internet that Canon was blocking all 3rd party AF glass but the there is simply nothing to back that up and the absent of proof is proof of nothing.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Nov 6, 2022)

SNJ Ops said:


> In the Viltrox case they said in that message to the customer that they weren’t the only company to have been stopped from making RF glass.


Not that I can find, the only verified information is from Canon Germany about Viltrox. 

There was also a chat exchange with someone from Samyang but that should hardly be considered a source of truth. It is true that Samyang stopped making AF RF glass but I have found no evidence that Canon told them to stop.

I do think it likely Samyang was privately told to stop but that is nothing more than speculation on my part.


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## allanP (Nov 6, 2022)

R6 Mk II? - the next failed design change.
Imagine - they produce weapons and change the position of the trigger and safety lever.
What a load of crap


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 6, 2022)

allanP said:


> R6 Mk II? - the next failed design change.
> Imagine - they produce weapons and change the position of the trigger and safety lever.
> What a load of crap


Did they move the shutter button? Or is your analogy the load of crap here?


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## AlanF (Nov 6, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Not that I can find, the only verified information is from Canon Germany about Viltrox.
> 
> There was also a chat exchange with someone from Samyang but that should hardly be considered a source of truth. It is true that Samyang stopped making AF RF glass but I have found no evidence that Canon told them to stop.
> 
> I do think it likely Samyang was privately told to stop but that is nothing more than speculation on my part.


This is the source of the information: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66429558


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## AlanF (Nov 6, 2022)

allanP said:


> R6 Mk II? - the next failed design change.
> Imagine - they produce weapons and change the position of the trigger and safety lever.
> What a load of crap


If they produced weapons, I'd steer clear of certain CR members.


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## Jonathan Thill (Nov 6, 2022)

AlanF said:


> This is the source of the information: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66429558


Ah yes, CS not really in the know for a company. The crap our CS reps tell customers... I think I saw something like this that was attached to Samyang. 

Found it


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## Del Paso (Nov 6, 2022)

allanP said:


> R6 Mk II? - the next failed design change.
> Imagine - they produce weapons and change the position of the trigger and safety lever.
> What a load of crap


What a load of crap, but not the camera...


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## Skux (Nov 6, 2022)

The power switch is on the right hand side on many Canon cameras already. And anyway it takes like 20 seconds to remember where the switch is and then it's a non-issue.


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## entoman (Nov 6, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> What a load of crap, but not the camera...


Don't feed the troll, or it'll be back with more crapspeak


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## entoman (Nov 6, 2022)

Skux said:


> The power switch is on the right hand side on many Canon cameras already. And anyway it takes like 20 seconds to remember where the switch is and then it's a non-issue.


20 seconds (more like 5 actually) is a long time if you raise the camera for a snatch shot and find that it's turned off. I've got used to having the power switch on the left on most of my Canon cameras, but I do think it is better to place it around the shutter button (Nikon-style). It's just a more logical position and enables one-handed control when supporting a heavy lens with the left hand. But that would interfere with the existing position of the front dial, so for me the newly positioned power switch on the R6ii is a welcome improvement.


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## SNJ Ops (Nov 6, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Not that I can find, the only verified information is from Canon Germany about Viltrox.
> 
> There was also a chat exchange with someone from Samyang but that should hardly be considered a source of truth. It is true that Samyang stopped making AF RF glass but I have found no evidence that Canon told them to stop.
> 
> I do think it likely Samyang was privately told to stop but that is nothing more than speculation on my part.


I’ve attached the chat exchange that Viltrox had with a customer, this is the actual situation that Canon Germany responded to.


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## AlanF (Nov 6, 2022)

entoman said:


> 20 seconds (more like 5 actually) is a long time if you raise the camera for a snatch shot and find that it's turned off. I've got used to having the power switch on the left on most of my Canon cameras, but I do think it is better to place it around the shutter button (Nikon-style). It's just a more logical position and enables one-handed control when supporting a heavy lens with the left hand. But that would interfere with the existing position of the front dial, so for me the newly positioned power switch on the R6ii is a welcome improvement.


You are used to the power switch on the left. I am used to mine left on.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 6, 2022)

entoman said:


> 20 seconds (more like 5 actually) is a long time if you raise the camera for a snatch shot and find that it's turned off.


I think the point was 20 seconds to _learn_ the new position of the power switch. Not 20 (or 5) seconds each and every time you pick up the new camera (which won’t remain ‘new’ for long).


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 6, 2022)

SNJ Ops said:


> I’ve attached the chat exchange that Viltrox had with a customer, this is the actual situation that Canon Germany responded to.


The point is that screenshots of something posted by a customer service rep aren’t exactly definitive evidence. The published statement mane by Canon Germany is actual evidence, and mentions only Viltrox. 

People can read what they want into it, but anything other than likely infringement by Viltrox is just speculation.


----------



## entoman (Nov 6, 2022)

AlanF said:


> You are used to the power switch on the left. I am used to mine left on.


I leave mine on most of the time too, but I'd turn it off more often if the R5 switch was in the same position as on the R6ii


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## entoman (Nov 6, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I think the point was 20 seconds to _learn_ the new position of the power switch. Not 20 (or 5) seconds each and every time you pick up the new camera (which won’t remain ‘new’ for long).


Maybe. I'm pretty sure I could learn the new position in 5 seconds, despite not being particularly good at adapting to new layouts. The only problems that would arise would be if I switched back and forth between my R5 and a R6ii, never being quite sure which camera I was using at the time! When the "R5ii" and/or "R5s" are launched, the power switch will probably be revised again!


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## Johnw (Nov 6, 2022)

SNJ Ops said:


> In the Viltrox case they said in that message to the customer that they weren’t the only company to have been stopped from making RF glass.



It’s also a reasonable inference given that it is also fact that Samyang ceased production around the same time.

As has been said before it was 11 years before Sigma released the first EF lens, we are only 4 years into the RF system and anyone who was aware of Canon’s past history should not be surprised at all by this decision of
theirs to retain a few more years of exclusivity for RF.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Nov 6, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> The point is that screenshots of something posted by a customer service rep aren’t exactly definitive evidence. The published statement mane by Canon Germany is actual evidence, and mentions only Viltrox.
> 
> People can read what they want into it, but anything other than likely infringement by Viltrox is just speculation.


100% - Knowing what I know about patent law and how vigorous Canon is about protecting their patents the speculation is not a major leap. What I have taken exception with is statements like "Canon is blocking all 3rd party on the RF mount" when there is simply no proof this is true.

As I have said before on this topic we really do not know if any of the 3rd party players are working on reverse engineering the RF mount protocols to allow for their lenses to play nice on an RF camera without infringement on Canon's IP. 

Canon has clearly not taken any action on the RF mount itself as there are over 70 RF manual focus lenses in the Cinema space and some from some big players in Cinema glass like Fujinon that would not risk a battle with Canon.

I really do not know if all hope is lost for 3rd party RF autofocus lenses but my technical speculation *"gut feel" *worries that for those that want 3rd party glass Canon may have added the additional pins to the RF mount to prevent reverse engineering. Time will tell.

For me I am happy as I can be with my RF system and truly want for nothing. (Ok an RF 11-15\24 F4 would be welcome)

Cheers


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## AlanF (Nov 6, 2022)

entoman said:


> I leave mine on most of the time too, but I'd turn it off more often if the R5 switch was in the same position as on the R6ii


My R7 switch is on the right and my R5 on the left so I have to be mentally ambidextrous.


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## entoman (Nov 6, 2022)

AlanF said:


> My R7 switch is on the right and my R5 on the left so I have to be mentally ambidextrous.


My brain isn't that lively!


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## entoman (Nov 6, 2022)

Jonathan Thill said:


> Canon has clearly not taken any action on the RF mount itself as there are over 70 RF manual focus lenses in the Cinema space and some from some big players in Cinema glass like Fujinon that would not risk a battle with Canon.


Is the Cinema RF mount glass from Fujinon autofocus or purely manual?



Jonathan Thill said:


> I really do not know if all hope is lost for 3rd party RF autofocus lenses but my technical speculation *"gut feel" *worries that for those that want 3rd party glass Canon may have added the additional pins to the RF mount to prevent reverse engineering. Time will tell.
> 
> For me I am happy as I can be with my RF system and truly want for nothing. (Ok an RF 11-15\24 F4 would be welcome)


How would adding the extra pins to the RF mount "prevent" reverse engineering? It would make it more difficult, but if Sigma/Tamron could figure out what Canon is using them for (and how), they would be able to add extra pins to their own potential RF lenses, and get full functionality, wouldn't they?


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## dcm (Nov 6, 2022)

AlanF said:


> My R7 switch is on the right and my R5 on the left so I have to be mentally ambidextrous.



R6 on the left , R7 on the right, M5 on the left, M6II on the right, 6D on the left , 550d on the right, 1DXII on the back, and A1 on the right. At any point in time I was likely using 2-3 different bodies. I don't think I ever really thought twice about it. After I do it a couple of times, it becomes muscle memory. I never felt like I missed a shot because of the on/off switch. If it wasn't already on, I really wasn't ready to shoot.

Back in the film days with the A1, it was far more frustrating to find I had not advanced the film to reset the shutter, diaphragm, and mirror for the next exposure. Even back then, the A1 on/off (A/L) switch was never really an issue.


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## Del Paso (Nov 6, 2022)

dcm said:


> R6 on the left , R7 on the right, M5 on the left, M6II on the right, 6D on the left , 550d on the right, 1DXII on the back, and A1 on the right. At any point in time I was likely using 2-3 different bodies. I don't think I ever really thought twice about it. After I do it a couple of times, it becomes muscle memory. I never felt like I missed a shot because of the on/off switch. If it wasn't already on, I really wasn't ready to shoot.
> 
> Back in the film days with the A1, it was far more frustrating to find I had not advanced the film to reset the shutter, diaphragm, and mirror for the next exposure. Even back then, the A1 on/off (A/L) switch was never really an issue.


To be honest, before this was being discussed here, I hadn't spent a single thought on the placement of the switch.
My EOS R and 5 D IV have it on the left, my M 240 has it on the right, I haden't even thought it could be an issue. What I dislike is the mode button, which the R 6 doesn't have.
The difference in focusing direction between Leica R - M and Nikon was utterly irritating for a long long time. I missed many shots.
Fortunately Canon's lenses have it "right" (for me).


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## entoman (Nov 6, 2022)

dcm said:


> R6 on the left , R7 on the right, M5 on the left, M6II on the right, 6D on the left , 550d on the right, 1DXII on the back, and A1 on the right. At any point in time I was likely using 2-3 different bodies. I don't think I ever really thought twice about it. After I do it a couple of times, it becomes muscle memory. I never felt like I missed a shot because of the on/off switch. If it wasn't already on, I really wasn't ready to shoot.
> 
> Back in the film days with the A1, it was far more frustrating to find I had not advanced the film to reset the shutter, diaphragm, and mirror for the next exposure. Even back then, the A1 on/off (A/L) switch was never really an issue.


Some folk, like yourself, have the ability to switch back and forth between cameras without encountering muscle-memory problems, others (possibly less mentally agile) sometimes curse the way controls are moved from place to place on successive models. I and others have admittedly been exaggerating the "problem", but it really would be so very nice if Canon standardised more on the controls of cameras within their range.


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## AlanF (Nov 6, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> To be honest, before this was being discussed here, I hadn't spent a single thought on the placement of the switch.
> My EOS R and 5 D IV have it on the left, my M 240 has it on the right, I haden't even thought it could be an issue. What I dislike is the mode button, which the R 6 doesn't have.
> The difference in focusing direction between Leica R - M and Nikon was utterly irritating for a long long time. I missed many shots.
> Fortunately Canon's lenses have it "right" (for me).


All the normal mechanical actions using turning employ a right hand clockwise action for turning things on, screwing screws in, tightening nuts, putting on bottle caps etc. Even cranking a car on the old days was clockwise. And our DNA has a right hand twist. So Nikon does the opposite for its lens mounting.


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## mpeeps (Nov 7, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> View attachment 206189


Is that the Glutten for Punishment??


----------



## Del Paso (Nov 7, 2022)

AlanF said:


> All the normal mechanical actions using turning employ a right hand clockwise action for turning things on, screwing screws in, tightening nuts, putting on bottle caps etc. Even cranking a car on the old days was clockwise. And our DNA has a right hand twist. So Nikon does the opposite for its lens mounting.


Has Nikon ever explained why they chose the "wrong" way ?
It can be a logical choice on some car screws and bolts for safety reasons (king pin), but on lenses?


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## AlanF (Nov 7, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Has Nikon ever explained why they chose the "wrong" way ?
> It can be a logical choice on some car screws and bolts for safety reasons (king pin), but on lenses?


Part of Nikon's plan to drive themselves out of the market. They really do make superb cameras and lenses and then implement stupid things to detract. The D850 is simply the best DSLR for AF and IQ, but it's difficult to use some of the buttons, it doesn't have a mode dial with C1-C3 settings like Canon for quick switching between saved settings, and saved settings are not "sticky" and do not revert when you alter them for a single shot.


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## sanj (Nov 7, 2022)

Hector1970 said:


> Out of curiosity , what would you shoot at 1/16000?


Water droplets. Hummingbirds. And more...


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## fox40phil (Nov 7, 2022)

Alastair Norcross said:


> R7 has pre-buffer. M6II had it (in a cropped mode) 3 years ago.


But for me... it makes 0 sense to have it with that HEAVY rolling shutter... zero rolling shutter is hard needed for this!


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## Del Paso (Nov 7, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Part of Nikon's plan to drive themselves out of the market. They really do make superb cameras and lenses and then implement stupid things to detract. The D850 is simply the best DSLR for AF and IQ, but it's difficult to use some of the buttons, it doesn't have a mode dial with C1-C3 settings like Canon for quick switching between saved settings, and saved settings are not "sticky" and do not revert when you alter them for a single shot.


I agree. The D 850 was may favourite, but, as you just wrote, some "details" were irritating, Plus the absence of a 100-400 and TS 24mm as good as the Canons. So, after some happy years with an F2, I jumped ship !!! and bought an EOS D III. The easier adaptability of Leica R lenses also spoke for Canon. Yet, I still hope Nikon will become a real competitor again.


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## entoman (Nov 7, 2022)

The "moving subject HDR" with in-camera merging sounds promising, and shots I've seen in reviews show that it works extremely well. Does anyone know whether this setting can be saved as a custom mode so it can be used for every shot in a session? Or does it have to be selected from the menu for each individual shot? (as happens e.g. with focus bracketing on the R5).


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## AlanF (Nov 7, 2022)

fox40phil said:


> But for me... it makes 0 sense to have it with that HEAVY rolling shutter... zero rolling shutter is hard needed for this!


It doesn't make "0 sense". It makes a good deal of sense to have a pre-buffer mode that can work for some of the time than not to have it at all. I have examples here where rolling shutter spoiled shots but others where it didn't. https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/threads/r7-discussion.41564/


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## SnowMiku (Nov 9, 2022)

I wonder why they didn't include the AF/MF switch on the front of the body like on the R10/R7? I think the R6 market would want that feature and I think all future models should have it.


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## dboris (Nov 14, 2022)

Waiting for the second round of reviews to come :C


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## koenkooi (Nov 14, 2022)

dboris said:


> Waiting for the second round of reviews to come :C


Or what I’d call ‘actual reviews’, the launch day (p)reviews are useful, but are done over too short a time to form a proper opinion on something.


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## danfaz (Nov 14, 2022)

SnowMiku said:


> I wonder why they didn't include the AF/MF switch on the front of the body like on the R10/R7? I think the R6 market would want that feature and I think all future models should have it.


I'm only guessing, but probably because most lenses used on an R6 have an AF/MF switch. The RF-S lenses so far don't have a switch, and you'd have to change AF/MF in the camera menu.


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## Marco Birri (Nov 15, 2022)

Well the R6M2 manual is out (at least I found it on canon.ca) How long before the camera ships after that?


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## Kit. (Nov 15, 2022)

Marco Birri said:


> Well the R6M2 manual is out (at least I found it on canon.ca) How long before the camera ships after that?


The camera is supposed to ship at 29th of November (at least in Europe).


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## Ian K (Nov 18, 2022)

US price = $2099. UK price = £2599

Actually, £2599 without VAT is £2166.
Exchange rate £=>$2583, which is $484, 23%. Clearly exchange rates are changing very rapidly and very greatly. 

At the time it was announced the difference was £135, which can easily be explained by import duties.


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## mkamelg (Dec 2, 2022)

Before you start unpacking the camera from the box, remember to update EOS Utility to the latest version (at this time it is version 3.16.1.3). The update information should appear automatically when you launch EOS Utility. Why? Because with the old version of EOS Utility installed, when trying to synchronize the camera with the computer (WiFi network connection on the basis of camera -> router -> computer), the camera freezes to such an extent that it is necessary to remove the battery to reset the camera to make it work again.

It also froze once after taking my eye off the EVF and trying to look at the LCD screen, but fortunately it unfroze itself. So far it has only happened once, and I hope that it will not happen again.

After unpacking the camera from the box and turning it on, I changed a few options for taking sample photos.

Image quality: RAW
Auto Lightning Optimizer: OFF
Picture Style: Neutral
Lens aberration correction: All to OFF
High ISO speed NR: OFF
Shutter mode: Electronic (ES)
AF operation: AI FOCUS
AF area: 1-point AF
Subject to detect: Auto

The camera comes standard with P mode selected on the mode dial, and I took sample photos in this mode.

I attached the Canon RF 85mm F2 Macro IS STM lens to the camera.

Download RAW files:









Photos from the city in low light


Folder



1drv.ms





Due to the fact that I still have the EOS R camera model at home, I was very interested in how both camera models would fare in the sensor resolution comparison, especially after reading the following words published in this https://www.popphoto.com/gear-reviews/canon-eos-r6-mark-ii-early-review/ review:



> Canon also says the R6 Mark II has a resolution performance that is superior to the EOS 5D Mark IV, which provides 30.4 megapixels.



It's probably not that good, but fortunately it's not worse than in EOS R, which I was most afraid of (after all, 6 megapixels escape from the sensor here).

These comparative RAW files that you can download from the link below should be opened only under DPP, because in other applications a color error may appear - such an application is, for example, PhotoScape X.

The camera settings are the same as for taking sample photos, except for the Subject to detect option which I had to set to OFF. In order to perform this modest test, I switched to the Av shooting mode. After switching to the Av shooting mode, the factory-set aperture value was revealed, which is f/5.6.

Download RAW files:









Canon EOS R6 Mark II vs Canon EOS R


Folder



1drv.ms





I do not know what is responsible for this slight image shift in the frame, both cameras were perfectly leveled according to the indications of the spirit levels visible on their LCD screens. The photos were taken from a tripod with a 2-second self-timer, with artificial lighting with a declared color temperature of 2700K, so it would be appropriate to apply the white balance correction from AWB to 2700K yourself.

This camera model is the first full-frame Canon camera to feature the option of a digital tele-converter. The available magnifications are 2.0x and 4.0x. The digital tele-converter does not work when saving images to RAW files.

This camera model, like the R3, R7 and R10 models, is MFi certified by Apple.

I have a JJC glass model JJC GSP-EOSR6 on the LCD screen. It does not cost a fortune, and what is very important for some people, it does not block the closing of the LCD screen. It does not fit perfectly with the LCD screen (it is shorter by about 1 mm), and this is its only drawback.









Best Canon R6 Memory Cards With Speed & Buffer Tests


We've tested 20 memory cards in the Canon R6 to find out how many shots you can take before hitting the buffer and which cards clear the buffer the fastest.




rfshooters.com





https://alikgriffin.com/best-memory-cards-for-the-canon-r6/ (sorted by In-Camera Write)

After reading these two tests, I bought myself a set of two Kingston Canvas React Plus UHS-II memory cards with a capacity of 64 GB each along with the MobileLite Plus SD memory card reader. With these cards inserted into both slots, the camera turns on instantly, and saves data instantly.

That would be all from me for now. Please don't ask me for more tests, because I've already started setting the camera up for myself, and I won't specifically change the settings back to factory. I would be able to continue testing if Canon had not cut out the possibility of saving my own configuration to the memory card in this camera model.


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## Kit. (Dec 2, 2022)

mkamelg said:


> AF operation: AI FOCUS


What are the scenarios for which this mode is better than the other two?


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## mkamelg (Dec 5, 2022)

Honestly, there are no such scenarios.

From what I remember in the days of DSLRs, the AI FOCUS autofocus mode was always discouraged as useless. Most photographers suggested only using the SERVO autofocus mode.

I set the AI FOCUS autofocus mode only for testing purposes how it works in a mirrorless camera. To be honest, it works strangely, which is why I switched to the SERVO autofocus mode, which is the same with which I have been photographing with various Canon cameras for the last few years.

By the way, if anyone would like to expand their knowledge about the AI FOCUS autofocus mode, I am posting link to official information about it:









AI Focus Definition


Find out what an AI Focus is with Canon.




www.canon.com.au


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 5, 2022)

Kit. said:


> What are the scenarios for which this mode is better than the other two?


In theory, it would be great for any subject that isn't currently moving but could start moving. In practice, I found that I was far better than the camera at deciding when a subject was moving vs. sitting still, so I never used AI Focus on cameras with that as an option. It was not an option on the 1D X and is not an option on the R3, which is a contextual message about how Canon views it's utility.


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