# The Canon EOS R3 will cost €6099, still waiting on USD pricing



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 10, 2021)

> The Canon EOS R3 will cost €6099 according to the latest leaks. This pricing looks to be in line with what I was expecting. This should put the USD pricing somewhere between $5000 – $5500 give or take going by the usual conversion rate.
> The Canon RF 100-400mm f/5.6-8 IS USM will cost €749, with the USD pricing being $649. The Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM will launch at €349 with USD pricing at $299.
> More to come…



Continue reading...


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## reef58 (Sep 10, 2021)

This should be an interesting discussion. $5299 or so based on the percentage with the lenses.


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## DBounce (Sep 10, 2021)

That falls inline with what I was expecting. Tuesday should be interesting.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)




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## RayValdez360 (Sep 10, 2021)

now what the release date......


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## bseitz234 (Sep 10, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> now what the release date......


For the first 25 units, or when they’re able to actually meet demand?


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## jeanluc (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> View attachment 200110


I seem to recall you have an R5, correct? Just curious about the main reasons you would add an R3 to your Arsenal? For me, the R5 has been awesome, but I shoot landscspes and just do some backyard birding. I can’t wait to hear how that BSI sensor performs though!


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## Chaitanya (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> View attachment 200110


Too rich for me, rental or buying used 2 years down the line will be the option for me.


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## bergstrom (Sep 10, 2021)

What currency site are they using, jesus!!

Today $5500 is 4,648.6215 Euros as per https://www.xe.com/

or if we take your rumoured price of €6099, thats 7,215.7485 US Dollars.

I t would literally be cheaper for every european photographer to fly to NY and buy it there and stick in luggage.


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## rick2 (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> View attachment 200110


Your dog is really lucky, I can't wait to see the pics


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## bernie_king (Sep 10, 2021)

bergstrom said:


> What currency site are they using, jesus!!
> 
> Today $5500 is 4,648.6215 Euros as per https://www.xe.com/
> 
> ...


Isn't this usually the case? That it would be cheaper for someone in Europe to fly to NYC, buy the camera, and fly back? Of course, you would have to pay VAT on entry if I recall the rules. It always seems to be a matter of contention on these forums whenever a new camera is released. I don't think this was an actual currency conversion, but rather a conversion based on price differences with current products. It's always cheaper in the US


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## Viggo (Sep 10, 2021)

which country is that price from and is the national VAT included or not?

because that’s barley more than the R5 at launch…


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## Andy Westwood (Sep 10, 2021)

Canon are going to have to slash the price of the 1D X Mk III if the R3 is that much cheaper and by the sounds of it that much better too. Good news for most people I guess!


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## AlanF (Sep 10, 2021)

bergstrom said:


> What currency site are they using, jesus!!
> 
> Today $5500 is 4,648.6215 Euros as per https://www.xe.com/
> 
> ...


You have missed off the ~20% VAT in Europe. The US prices are before tax (if any). But, Canon Europe does rip us off.


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## RayValdez360 (Sep 10, 2021)

bergstrom said:


> What currency site are they using, jesus!!
> 
> Today $5500 is 4,648.6215 Euros as per https://www.xe.com/
> 
> ...


yeah but that takes time. Convenience> time for most people.


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## H. Jones (Sep 10, 2021)

5200-5300 isn't bad at all, but part of me is still hopeful the USD will somehow come out to 5000. 

In all reality, at 5000-ish, it's only the cost of one full day wedding gig, which is not bad at all for a lot of working professionals.


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## reef58 (Sep 10, 2021)

jeanluc said:


> I seem to recall you have an R5, correct? Just curious about the main reasons you would add an R3 to your Arsenal? For me, the R5 has been awesome, but I shoot landscspes and just do some backyard birding. I can’t wait to hear how that BSI sensor performs though!


I am not him, but I have an R5 and a 1DX3. I suspect unless the features are lacking the R3 may be my video rig. Raw footage, large pro form factor and a flip out screen. Overheating issues will probably be less than with the R5. The stills capability will also be superb when I want to go out with one camera.


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## unfocused (Sep 10, 2021)

jeanluc said:


> I seem to recall you have an R5, correct? Just curious about the main reasons you would add an R3 to your Arsenal? For me, the R5 has been awesome, but I shoot landscspes and just do some backyard birding. I can’t wait to hear how that BSI sensor performs though!


I believe Neuro has said he has an R.


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## John Wilde (Sep 10, 2021)

bergstrom said:


> What currency site are they using, jesus!!
> 
> Today $5500 is 4,648.6215 Euros as per https://www.xe.com/
> 
> ...


Don't forget USA sales tax. I googled it, and New York City is said to have a (state + local) sales tax of 8.875%.


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## kaihp (Sep 10, 2021)

AlanF said:


> You have missed off the ~20% VAT in Europe. The US prices are before tax (if any). But, Canon Europe does rip us off.


Yes and no. We have a 2 year warranty, while the US warranty is 1 year. Flying to the US and buying it here would not entitle your to the European warranty.
Here in DK, the VAT is 25% just to add insult to injury. But we do have universal healthcare, which is nice. Just don't go the the dentist. The doctors have managed to convince everyone that if we go to _them_ payment should be covered by the universal healthcare, but if we _don't_ go to an MD, heaven forbid, but someone else (including a dentist) damn you all the way and you need to pay out of your own pocket. (grumble).
€6100 is around +36% on the €4500 for the R5, so here in Denmark that would turn the 36.400DKK into an estimated 49.500DKK (slightly rounded up).
Ouch, but still in line with my guesstimate.


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## rick2 (Sep 10, 2021)

jeanluc said:


> I seem to recall you have an R5, correct? Just curious about the main reasons you would add an R3 to your Arsenal? For me, the R5 has been awesome, but I shoot landscspes and just do some backyard birding. I can’t wait to hear how that BSI sensor performs though!


Probably for action shots like this


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## bbasiaga (Sep 10, 2021)

Ok....so in the $5k range in the US. I thought it would be more than that, but hoped it would be less. I was never in the market for this camera really. But I hope in a few years the sensor tech comes down to the 5 and 6 series bodies. I may upgrade then. 

-Brian


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## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 10, 2021)

Andy Westwood said:


> Canon are going to have to slash the price of the 1D X Mk III if the R3 is that much cheaper and by the sounds of it that much better too. Good news for most people I guess!



The 1DX Mk III is the flagship so it'll be more expensive and is unlikely to get a price slash being that it isn't due to be replaced for another 2-3 years.


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## Del Paso (Sep 10, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> Isn't this usually the case? That it would be cheaper for someone in Europe to fly to NYC, buy the camera, and fly back? Of course, you would have to pay VAT on entry if I recall the rules. It always seems to be a matter of contention on these forums whenever a new camera is released. I don't think this was an actual currency conversion, but rather a conversion based on price differences with current products. It's always cheaper in the US


Unfortunately, not only VAT but also custom duties...
So, to the US price, depending on the country, you can add about 15 to 35%...( 19% Vat + > < 16% custom duties).
Unless, of course, you're a dishonest smuggler ...and ready to risk a huge fine or seizure by the customs.
Warranty can be an issue too.


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## fox40phil (Sep 10, 2021)

Nice prices for the two lenses! - if the quality fits!
350€ sounds like a no brainer ^^!
I want a short, small and great UW lens for a long time. Something like the RF 35 1.8, which you can always put into your bag^^!


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## John Wilde (Sep 10, 2021)

Andy Westwood said:


> Canon are going to have to slash the price of the 1D X Mk III if the R3 is that much cheaper and by the sounds of it that much better too. Good news for most people I guess!


There's no need for them to slash the price. Just decrease the number of 1D X units produced.


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## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 10, 2021)

reef58 said:


> This should be an interesting discussion. $5299 or so based on the percentage with the lenses.


This price point would be logical. $1400-ish above the R5, $1200-ish below the 1DX3, seems like a price point Canon would go for. After CA tax though it would put this at almost $6K, too rich for my blood for a camera I don't need.


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## unfocused (Sep 10, 2021)

jeanluc said:


> I seem to recall you have an R5, correct? Just curious about the main reasons you would add an R3 to your Arsenal? For me, the R5 has been awesome, but I shoot landscspes and just do some backyard birding. I can’t wait to hear how that BSI sensor performs though!


For me, I am hoping for a buffer that clears faster, closer to the 1DXIII's nearly unlimited buffer. Smaller file size should mean I can download images faster and get to editing when I'm on deadline. The reduced viewfinder lag will make some of my studio shooting easier. 

But my main reason is to consolidate everything into one lens mount. Even if I take a hit on the 1Dx III, I can sell my EF lenses and come out about even. But more importantly, I am damn tired of lugging around duplicate lenses when I need to use both bodies.


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## Manuel (Sep 10, 2021)

bergstrom said:


> What currency site are they using, jesus!!
> 
> Today $5500 is 4,648.6215 Euros as per https://www.xe.com/
> 
> ...


€6099 would actually correspond to about $5299, according to other lens/camera prices. On April 2020 I paid 7419 Euros (including tax) for the 1DX3, when the price in the US was 6499 US dollars (excluding tax). 

Flying to NY to buy the equipment was indeed worth it when the euro to dollar exchange rate was about 1.4 or higher. But now, at less than 1.2, this is not the case any more: in addition to the flight ticket, taxi from the airport and a night of hotel, don't forget you have to add NY tax (8.875%). 

I used to fly from Europe to NY in the past just for shopping cameras, lenses and computers, but now, unless I need to travel for work or to a state with 0% tax, it doesn't make sense any more :-(


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## Andy Westwood (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> The 1DX Mk III is the flagship so it'll be more expensive and is unlikely to get a price slash being that it isn't due to be replaced for another 2-3 years.



“Replacement” I feel the word might be Discontinued!

Canon has this annoying habit of continuing to call models flagships even when newer models arrive and outperform them. Reviewers on Youtubers, JP for example was teasing Canon by calling the R3 a flagship even though he claimed Canon pacifically told him not to call the R3 a flagship.

I Googled “Flagship” and this is what it came up with

*Definition of flagship* ... : the best, largest, or most important one of a group of things

I must agree with “largest”  but best… Just marketing and brand protection, I guess.

I’m not knocking the 1D series I spent most of my photography life shooting with one, I just find the terminology interesting


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## Manuel (Sep 10, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> Isn't this usually the case? That it would be cheaper for someone in Europe to fly to NYC, buy the camera, and fly back? Of course, you would have to pay VAT on entry if I recall the rules. It always seems to be a matter of contention on these forums whenever a new camera is released. I don't think this was an actual currency conversion, but rather a conversion based on price differences with current products. It's always cheaper in the US


If EU customs authorities grab your camera or goods at the airport and consider that you are importing them, provided their value is over 475 euros (not sure about the current exact amount), you will need to pay the VAT on entry.


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## Billybob (Sep 10, 2021)

Manuel said:


> €6099 would actually correspond to about $5299, according to other lens/camera prices. On April 2020 I paid 7419 Euros (including tax) for the 1DX3, when the price in the US was 6499 US dollars (excluding tax).
> 
> Flying to NY to buy the equipment was indeed worth it when the euro to dollar exchange rate was about 1.4 or higher. But now, at less than 1.2, this is not the case any more: in addition to the flight ticket, taxi from the airport and a night of hotel, don't forget you have to add NY tax (8.875%).
> 
> I used to fly from Europe to NY in the past just for shopping cameras, lenses and computers, but now, unless I need to travel for work or to a state with 0% tax, it doesn't make sense any more :-(


Not to mention if recent history is any indication, then your odds of finding a copy in stock anytime near the release date is vanishingly small.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 10, 2021)

Andy Westwood said:


> “Replacement” I feel the word might be Discontinued!
> 
> Canon has this annoying habit of continuing to call models flagships even when newer models arrive and outperform them. Reviewers on Youtubers, JP for example was teasing Canon by calling the R3 a flagship even though he claimed Canon pacifically told him not to call the R3 a flagship.
> 
> ...



The 1DX becomes the R1 when it is due for replacement. What some random Youtubers say doesn't change that Canon have said this isn't the flagship it isn't priced as the flagship and Canon are still selling the 1DX Mk 3 as their best camera and as such it's price wont change. The R3 may better it in a few ways, but not in every aspect.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 10, 2021)

Andy Westwood said:


> “Replacement” I feel the word might be Discontinued!
> 
> Canon has this annoying habit of continuing to call models flagships even when newer models arrive and outperform them. Reviewers on Youtubers, JP for example was teasing Canon by calling the R3 a flagship even though he claimed Canon pacifically told him not to call the R3 a flagship.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, it all makes sense now. The 1DXiii is the flagship because it is physically larger than the R3. Now we know why the R3 can't be called the flagship!


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## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> The 1DX becomes the R1 when it is due for replacement. What some random Youtubers say doesn't change that Canon have said this isn't the flagship it isn't priced as the flagship and Canon are still selling the 1DX Mk 3 as their best camera and as such it's price wont change. The R3 may better it in a few ways, but not in every aspect.


I'm just curious, what aspects do you think the 1DX3 will excel over the R3? Side note, from a marketing and PR perspective it would make sense for Canon to NOT consider the R3 a flagship without knowing how it's received by the market. It would be quite the blow to Canon as a company to consider a camera a flagship and it not perform. But if this camera excels past the 1DX3 in just about every fashion and is widely received by the 1DX community, what would make you think the R3 would not eventually be considered Canon's flagship, even if "unofficially"?


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## H. Jones (Sep 10, 2021)

unfocused said:


> For me, I am hoping for a buffer that clears faster, closer to the 1DXIII's nearly unlimited buffer. Smaller file size should mean I can download images faster and get to editing when I'm on deadline. The reduced viewfinder lag will make some of my studio shooting easier.
> 
> But my main reason is to consolidate everything into one lens mount. Even if I take a hit on the 1Dx III, I can sell my EF lenses and come out about even. But more importantly, I am damn tired of lugging around duplicate lenses when I need to use both bodies.


I'm in the same boat here. The only two things I don't love about my R5 are the buffer and the (slight) electronic shutter warping. The 1dx2 and 1dx3 buffer is actually unlimited, you can fill any card before it hits the buffer. I would bet the R3 can match that, easily. Whereas the R5(and even the A1) both have a buffer of maybe 50-80 raw images. That sounds like a lot until you're holding down the shutter and hitting the buffer in 2 or 3 seconds of action. Whereas on the 1dx mark II, if something incredible is happening, I can just hold down the shutter for the next 30 seconds and have every single frame in perfect detail. 

I am more than happy with my 1dx2 as a secondary camera to the R5, but like you said, it's annoying having duplicate lenses to worry about. 

In all reality I'm actually very excited by the idea of a usable 30 fps. On the R5 I tend to avoid 20 fps due to buffer/file size, but at 24 mp I'll be less worried about file size. 

If Canon implemented a way to control the FPS of electronic shutter, I would use the crap out of 20 fps at 24 mp. 

In rough nonscientific math, 45 mp at 20 fps is ~900 MB/s, 24mp at 30 fps is ~720 MB/s, and 24mp at 20 fps is ~480MB/s.


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## koenkooi (Sep 10, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> I'm in the same boat here. The only two things I don't love about my R5 are the buffer and the (slight) electronic shutter warping. The 1dx2 and 1dx3 buffer is actually unlimited, you can fill any card before it hits the buffer. I would bet the R3 can match that, easily. Whereas the R5(and even the A1) both have a buffer of maybe 50-80 raw images. That sounds like a lot until you're holding down the shutter and hitting the buffer in 2 or 3 seconds of action. Whereas on the 1dx mark II, if something incredible is happening, I can just hold down the shutter for the next 30 seconds and have every single frame in perfect detail.[..]


It also impacts the builtin focus stacking feature, if I go over 50-ish images in a stack it will stutter and start taking pictures at a much slower rate. So I try to keep focus stacks of things like dragonflies to less than 50 pictures and hope they keep still for those 2.5 seconds. It's one of the things I know the 30fps on the R3 will help with: faster stacks.


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## entoman (Sep 10, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> It's always cheaper in the US


Only because US prices don't include tax. After taxes, there's little to choose between US and UK, if you buy through the official importer.

If you want the lowest price, buy from a grey importer, but choose your seller very carefully, as many will e.g. swap out genuine batteries for fakes, or take similar shortcuts to maximise profit. Most offer a warranty that's inferior to the one supplied by the official importer, and delivery times can be long.

I found a grey importer I can trust, and I've been using them for the last 10 years without any problems. They offer a 3 year local warranty with Canon-authorized repairers. Delivery from Hong Kong to the UK takes 4 days from the date I place the order on-line.


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## InchMetric (Sep 10, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> Don't forget USA sales tax. I googled it, and New York City is said to have a (state + local) sales tax of 8.875%.


7-8% is typical, and some states have no sales tax. More important, B&H is a major retailer that offers an immediate discount equal to your sales tax when you use their credit card, so it's easy for anyone to buy in the US tax free. (And it's been done to death, but the state sales tax is actually paid that way, so there's no reporting or tax liability being avoided.)


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## xps (Sep 10, 2021)

Well, 6099€ in Europe... as seen in the last years on ohter products, a Dollar-pricing of about 5650 to 5950 might be realistic.

But 6099 for 24MP.... no. Not for me. It might be an overwhelming body. But for my birding, it is much to less.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 10, 2021)

Toglife_Anthony said:


> I'm just curious, what aspects do you think the 1DX3 will excel over the R3? Side note, from a marketing and PR perspective it would make sense for Canon to NOT consider the R3 a flagship without knowing how it's received by the market. It would be quite the blow to Canon as a company to consider a camera a flagship and it not perform. But if this camera excels past the 1DX3 in just about every fashion and is widely received by the 1DX community, what would make you think the R3 would not eventually be considered Canon's flagship, even if "unofficially"?



Mechanical FPS is one area the 1DX Mk 3 may still be ahead, AF accuracy (as it has cross type AF and no mirrorless has this yet), we already know it had dual CF Express and the R3 only has one CF Express, perhaps even build quality. 

The R3 is going to be pretty much the best mirrorless camera you can buy until we see the Nikon Z9 that may or may not surpass it. No one will be disappointed by a R3, but a 1DX Mk3 user is likely still going to want to use that. Though my opinion and your's is irrelevant here, Canon have made it clear that the R3 is not the R1 and is not here to unseat the 1DX Mk 3 and you can be sure they'll make it so. Already it falls short by only having one CF Express slot.


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## john1970 (Sep 10, 2021)

I would be very happy to see the R3 released at $5000 to $5500 price point in the US. I always prefer the ergonomics of the Canon cameras with integrated vertical grips. 

Does anyone know when B&H will start accepting pre-orders? Is it on the announcement date or the release date?


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## BuffaloBird (Sep 10, 2021)

Cost SHOULD be $100 per megapixel. Want $5,500 from me?--produce this camera with a 55MP sensor.

At the current rumors, this is double the value...to me.


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## Bert63 (Sep 10, 2021)

rick2 said:


> Probably for action shots like this
> 
> View attachment 200111




No offense intended, but the R5 can deliver this and better at twice the resolution…


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## Skyscraperfan (Sep 10, 2021)

BuffaloBird said:


> Cost SHOULD be $100 per megapixel. Want $5,500 from me?--produce this camera with a 55MP sensor.


If costs were $100 per megapixel, I would love to buy a twelve megapixel camera.


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## Joules (Sep 10, 2021)

rick2 said:


> Probably for action shots like this
> 
> View attachment 200111


It wasn't funny the first time you implied neuro has some bizarre relationship with dogs, and it hasn't gotten any more funny since.

Kinda weird that despite your first account seemingly having gone up in smoke this second one isn't moderatet despite stuff like that.


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## Joules (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> No one will be disappointed by a R3


Pretty sure Goldwing will be disappointed by it, just as he was with the 1DX III  

Not to mention all the people who want a gripped, high res body, and want it now.


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## SHAMwow (Sep 10, 2021)

Just wait four more days before you all argue to death in the comments.


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## SHAMwow (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Mechanical FPS is one area the 1DX Mk 3 may still be ahead, AF accuracy (as it has cross type AF and no mirrorless has this yet), we already know it had dual CF Express and the R3 only has one CF Express, perhaps even build quality.
> 
> The R3 is going to be pretty much the best mirrorless camera you can buy until we see the Nikon Z9 that may or may not surpass it. No one will be disappointed by a R3, but a 1DX Mk3 user is likely still going to want to use that. Though my opinion and your's is irrelevant here, Canon have made it clear that the R3 is not the R1 and is not here to unseat the 1DX Mk 3 and you can be sure they'll make it so. Already it falls short by only having one CF Express slot.


I don't understand what you're saying about AF and crosstype. Why would you bring up a type of AF that can only be compared across DSLR models, and then say mirrorless doesn't have that. Mirrorless is literally an entirely different AF, and I'd never elect to go back to DSLR autofocus. Have you shot with an R5 or R6?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)

jeanluc said:


> I seem to recall you have an R5, correct? Just curious about the main reasons you would add an R3 to your Arsenal? For me, the R5 has been awesome, but I shoot landscspes and just do some backyard birding. I can’t wait to hear how that BSI sensor performs though!


As @unfocused indicated, I have an EOS R (and a 1D X, and three EOS M-series bodies). 

The main reason I prefer the R3 (and didn’t get the R5) is the ergonomics. I far prefer the integrated grip (I’ve used battery grips on earlier cameras the feel is different and the button placement is not great). The heavier body is also a better balance for the lenses I typically use, at the end of a shooting day with a non-gripped body my hand is sore, that isn’t the case with my 1D X.


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## CanonGrunt (Sep 10, 2021)

I don’t have that much money… Le sigh 


Yet… 



neuroanatomist said:


> View attachment 200110


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> The 1DX Mk III is the flagship so it'll be more expensive and is unlikely to get a price slash being that it isn't due to be replaced for another 2-3 years.


I do think the price of the 1DX II will drop on the used market.
Quite a lot of people did not upgrade to the 1DX III.
The price of the R3 makes it harder to resist.


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## DBounce (Sep 10, 2021)

rick2 said:


> Probably for action shots like this
> 
> View attachment 200111


This is actually why I’m interested in this camera. We have two dogs and the Canon animal AF is quite good.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

Toglife_Anthony said:


> I'm just curious, what aspects do you think the 1DX3 will excel over the R3?


The obvious thing would be 2 CFExpress cards.
I am betting that Canon cut some others to keep the price lower.


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## Joules (Sep 10, 2021)

SHAMwow said:


> I don't understand what you're saying about AF and crosstype. Why would you bring up a type of AF that can only be compared across DSLR models, and then say mirrorless doesn't have that. Mirrorless is literally an entirely different AF, and I'd never elect to go back to DSLR autofocus. Have you shot with an R5 or R6?


Canon's Dual Pixel AF is a Form of phase detection AF, which is also the principle DSLR use. Because all half pixels on the sensor are oriented the same way, Canon's DPAF can have issues when there is no contrast in this orientation. That's why the patents for quad pixel AF are exciting, as that would effectively be a type of cross point AF.


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## DBounce (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Mechanical FPS is one area the 1DX Mk 3 may still be ahead, AF accuracy (as it has cross type AF and no mirrorless has this yet), we already know it had dual CF Express and the R3 only has one CF Express, perhaps even build quality.
> 
> The R3 is going to be pretty much the best mirrorless camera you can buy until we see the Nikon Z9 that may or may not surpass it. No one will be disappointed by a R3, but a 1DX Mk3 user is likely still going to want to use that. Though my opinion and your's is irrelevant here, Canon have made it clear that the R3 is not the R1 and is not here to unseat the 1DX Mk 3 and you can be sure they'll make it so. Already it falls short by only having one CF Express slot.


I think the only way the R3 does not upset the 1DXMK3 is in that one is RF mount and the other is EF. Jared Polin has both the 1DXMK3 and the R3, and he said the R3 is the new flagship regardless of what Canon is saying. It’s superior in just about every way… 10:04


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## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 10, 2021)

SHAMwow said:


> I don't understand what you're saying about AF and crosstype. Why would you bring up a type of AF that can only be compared across DSLR models, and then say mirrorless doesn't have that. Mirrorless is literally an entirely different AF, and I'd never elect to go back to DSLR autofocus. Have you shot with an R5 or R6?



Try your R6/R5 or indeed any current mirrorless body on vertical lines (Note Samsung showed a quad pixel AF system that doesn't struggle). But to add again, since it seems lost: Our opinions are irrelevant. Canon say the 1DX Mk 3 sits above the R3.


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## koenkooi (Sep 10, 2021)

SHAMwow said:


> I don't understand what you're saying about AF and crosstype. Why would you bring up a type of AF that can only be compared across DSLR models, and then say mirrorless doesn't have that. Mirrorless is literally an entirely different AF, and I'd never elect to go back to DSLR autofocus. Have you shot with an R5 or R6?


DPAF is linear and all the sensels share the same orientation. I forget if it's horizontal or vertical, but DPAF can't detect things that are perfectly vertical. The cross-type AF points are both angled at 45 degrees and 90 degrees apart from eachother.

So trying to focus on fencing or vertical window blinds with DPAF can be difficult if there's no contrast on the slats itself.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Mechanical FPS is one area the 1DX Mk 3 may still be ahead, AF accuracy (as it has cross type AF and no mirrorless has this yet), we already know it had dual CF Express and the R3 only has one CF Express, perhaps even build quality.
> 
> The R3 is going to be pretty much the best mirrorless camera you can buy until we see the Nikon Z9 that may or may not surpass it. No one will be disappointed by a R3, but a 1DX Mk3 user is likely still going to want to use that. Though my opinion and your's is irrelevant here, Canon have made it clear that the R3 is not the R1 and is not here to unseat the 1DX Mk 3 and you can be sure they'll make it so. Already it falls short by only having one CF Express slot.


IMHO anyone happy with the 1DX III has little reason to switch.
For people who need a silent shutter, the R3 seems way better.
For 2 eyed shooters, no mirrorless will ever beat a DSLR.
For a lot of people, there is not much difference.


----------



## xps (Sep 10, 2021)

I found an old posting ("https://www.cameraegg.org/canon-eos-r3-to-cost-5999-listed-at-bh/"), which is quite old.
But maybe it is the correct price, that one of the biggest US sellers accidentically announced back in spring.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 10, 2021)

DBounce said:


> I think the only way the R3 does not upset the 1DXMK3 is in that one is RF mount and the other is EF. Jared Polin has both the 1DXMK3 and the R3, and he said the R3 is the new flagship regardless of what Canon is saying. It’s superior in just about every way… 10:04



Our opinions and the opinions of a random Youtuber doesn't change anything. The OP expected the 1DX Mk 3 to drop in price as the R3 is so cheep, Canon aren't going to do that when they have stated the 1DX Mk 3 is the flagship and the best of the best. I honest to goodness don't know why people are trying so desperately to fight that.


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## markko (Sep 10, 2021)

bergstrom said:


> It would literally be cheaper for every european photographer to fly to NY and buy it there and stick in luggage.



Except that most Europeans can't enter the US right now with the Covid travelban still in place. And I'd fly to a state with zero taxes ;-) But yeah, the currency differences are just insane.


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## DBounce (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Our opinions and the opinions of a random Youtuber doesn't change anything. The OP expected the 1DX Mk 3 to drop in price as the R3 is so cheep, Canon aren't going to do that when they have stated the 1DX Mk 3 is the flagship and the best of the best. I honest to goodness don't know why people are trying so desperately to fight that.


Canon will do exactly that. They can only sell at a price the market will support. When sales dry up, they will drop the price and later discontinue the model.


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## AEWest (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> The 1DX becomes the R1 when it is due for replacement. What some random Youtubers say doesn't change that Canon have said this isn't the flagship it isn't priced as the flagship and Canon are still selling the 1DX Mk 3 as their best camera and as such it's price wont change. The R3 may better it in a few ways, but not in every aspect.


In what ways is the 1DX3 superior? I can only think of 1 - dual CF express cards. Not enough to consider it to be the flagship despite what Canon says.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

DBounce said:


> I think the only way the R3 does not upset the 1DXMK3 is in that one is RF mount and the other is EF. Jared Polin has both the 1DXMK3 and the R3, and he said the R3 is the new flagship regardless of what Canon is saying. It’s superior in just about every way… 10:04


Jared Polin has an irrational hate of DSLRs.
He basically only used the 1DX III in live view.


----------



## 2Cents (Sep 10, 2021)

So maybe I'm about 3 months late in selling my 1DX mkiii


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Try your R6/R5 or indeed any current mirrorless body on vertical lines (Note Samsung showed a quad pixel AF system that doesn't struggle). But to add again, since it seems lost: Our opinions are irrelevant. Canon say the 1DX Mk 3 sits above the R3.


That is why it is $1,000 US cheaper.
We should not give Canon any ideas.


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## DBounce (Sep 10, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Jared Polin has an irrational hate of DSLRs.
> He basically only used the 1DX III in live view.


Perhaps, but that doesn’t mean he’s wrong. Fact is, he has had a chance to use both cameras side by side. So his opinion has to carry more weight than random posters who have not even been in the same room with the R3.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

xps said:


> I found an old posting ("https://www.cameraegg.org/canon-eos-r3-to-cost-5999-listed-at-bh/"), which is quite old.
> But maybe it is the correct price, that one of the biggest US sellers accidentically announced back in spring.


That was a rumor.
This is a leak.


----------



## fred (Sep 10, 2021)

Z9>R3 - at a similar price!!


----------



## Andy Westwood (Sep 10, 2021)

Anyway!

What good value the RF 16mm is at about £300 IQ pending of course

And surely, we can at least all agree that this lens is NOT A FLAGSHIP


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

markko said:


> Except that most Europeans can't enter the US right now with the Covid travelban still in place. And I'd fly to a state with zero taxes ;-) But yeah, the currency differences are just insane.


I am guessing that people are picking NYC because B & H and Adorama are there.
A camera like the R3 won't be in the camera section at Walmart.
There are camera shops in other cities but I doubt many tourists would know much about them.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> The 1DX becomes the R1 when it is due for replacement. What some random Youtubers say doesn't change that Canon have said this isn't the flagship it isn't priced as the flagship and Canon are still selling the 1DX Mk 3 as their best camera and as such it's price wont change. The R3 may better it in a few ways, but not in every aspect.


Canon DSLR prices do not seem to correlate very well with their mirrorless prices.
Even the existence of an R1 would not necessarily drop the price of the 1DX III.


----------



## Hector1970 (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Our opinions and the opinions of a random Youtuber doesn't change anything. The OP expected the 1DX Mk 3 to drop in price as the R3 is so cheep, Canon aren't going to do that when they have stated the 1DX Mk 3 is the flagship and the best of the best. I honest to goodness don't know why people are trying so desperately to fight that.


The second hand market is already doing it and I assume they will fall lower. If they had put a 30MP sensor in the 1DXIII it would have been easier for it to continue as a flagship. As an owner of a 1DXIII it is a good camera, the limitless buffer is great but I'd have sacraficed that for a 30 MP Sensor. It would have made it a much better all round camera. At some point the 1DXIII will be a bargain 2nd hand (not quite yet). I don't think any Canon user will take it seriously as a flagship and not fully priced. You'd be far better off getting the R3.


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2021)

Andy Westwood said:


> Canon are going to have to slash the price of the 1D X Mk III if the R3 is that much cheaper and by the sounds of it that much better too. Good news for most people I guess!



More likely, Canon will just insist (without much evidence to their argument) that the R3 isn't their "flagship," and keep the price high, because the people who care about that sort of thing are willing to spend the extra $700 to help compensate for whatever it is that is lacking in their lives.


----------



## koenkooi (Sep 10, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I am guessing that people are picking NYC because B & H and Adorama are there.[..]


It's also one of the cheapest tickets to get from Europe and a relatively short flight.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 10, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> The second hand market is already doing it and I assume they will fall lower. If they had put a 30MP sensor in the 1DXIII it would have been easier for it to continue as a flagship. As an owner of a 1DXIII it is a good camera, the limitless buffer is great but I'd have sacraficed that for a 30 MP Sensor. It would have made it a much better all round camera. At some point the 1DXIII will be a bargain 2nd hand (not quite yet). I don't think any Canon user will take it seriously as a flagship and not fully priced. You'd be far better off getting the R3.


Maybe, but the R3 hasn't been released or even reviewed yet, so we have no idea how it will compare in real world use.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 10, 2021)

[email protected] said:


> More likely, Canon will just insist (without much evidence to their argument) that the R3 isn't their "flagship," and keep the price high, because the people who care about that sort of thing are willing to spend the extra $700 to help compensate for whatever it is that is lacking in their lives.


I suspect Canon has already sold about as many 1DxIIIs as they expect to sell. As someone else said, they will likely cut back on production (similar to the EF 400 and 600 lenses) and it may be hard to find new for the next year or two once stores have sold their existing stock. If it is truly the last of the DSLRs it's value may stabilize and it may remain in the Canon catalogue for many years to come, although likely at a reduced price.


----------



## FrenchFry (Sep 10, 2021)

Viggo said:


> which country is that price from and is the national VAT included or not?
> 
> because that’s barley more than the R5 at launch…


I didn't see a country but per the source (Nokishita), this does include VAT of approximately 20% (assuming google translation is accurate).

So assuming this is accurate, the pre-VAT price in Europe would be 4879 Euros.


----------



## Karel (Sep 10, 2021)

Flagship or not, It's a dream camera for sure
Photos and video will be top notch no doubt about that


----------



## AEWest (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Try your R6/R5 or indeed any current mirrorless body on vertical lines (Note Samsung showed a quad pixel AF system that doesn't struggle). But to add again, since it seems lost: Our opinions are irrelevant. Canon say the 1DX Mk 3 sits above the R3.


Actually what we say AND what Canon says is irrelevant. The market will decide which is the flagship - by which camera will be at pro sports sidelines next year. The only thing Canon can do is set the selling prices and sit back.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 10, 2021)

AEWest said:


> In what ways is the 1DX3 superior? I can only think of 1 - dual CF express cards. Not enough to consider it to be the flagship despite what Canon says.



The reasons why I or anyone else think the R3 or 1Dx3 is superior to the other is irrelevant. It’s not a debate to be had in this context. Canon have said the R3 sits below the 1Dx like the R6 is below the R5.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 10, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Actually what we say AND what Canon says is irrelevant. The market will decide which is the flagship - by which camera will be at pro sports sidelines next year. The only thing Canon can do is set the selling prices and sit back.



This is true in that context. But it won’t make the 1Dx3 suddenly get a price drop below the R3.


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Sep 10, 2021)

If that price is true, €8,000 for the R1 seem realistic.


----------



## SHAMwow (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Try your R6/R5 or indeed any current mirrorless body on vertical lines (Note Samsung showed a quad pixel AF system that doesn't struggle). But to add again, since it seems lost: Our opinions are irrelevant. Canon say the 1DX Mk 3 sits above the R3.


I actually want to learn, so don't read into my tone based on just text. What do you mean by trying it on vertical lines? And going back to my original post, all I can say anecdotally is that I have way less issues with AF on my R5 than any of my previous cameras (60D, 80D, 5DIV).


----------



## AEWest (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> The reasons why I or anyone else think the R3 or 1Dx3 is superior to the other is irrelevant. It’s not a debate to be had in this context. Canon have said the R3 sits below the 1Dx like the R6 is below the R5.


Why do you take Canon marketing speak as gospel? They also said that the R5 is not a replacement for the 5DIV.

My opinion is that Canon is trying to protect the value of the 1DX3 that many people have bought for $6,500, and now being superceded by a superior camera a year and a half later that will be cheaper.

So they continue to call the 1DX3 the flagship without stating why it is the flagship other than price.


----------



## reef58 (Sep 10, 2021)

fred said:


> Z9>R3 - at a similar price!!


So you have tested them in real life. What was better about the Z9?


----------



## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 10, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> The reasons why I or anyone else think the R3 or 1Dx3 is superior to the other is irrelevant. It’s not a debate to be had in this context. Canon have said the R3 sits below the 1Dx like the R6 is below the R5.


Relax man, we get it, you think everyone's opinion is irrelevant and EVERYTHING Canon has said, is saying, and will ever say will be 100% accurate and correct and true and without any variance or change. Do you have some vested interest in the 1DX3 continuing its label as flagship?!

Side note, perhaps you should look more into the fundamentals of marketing, which, Canon hasn't exactly aced in the past couple of years. They wouldn't come out and say "the R3 is our new flagship" when they don't have metrics to support it can be so. It's easy to say a newly-announced 1DX3 was flagship because there wasn't much change from the 1DX2. Mirrorless is a different ballgame, and besides, this forum would suck if people didn't state their opinions. That's what leads to conversation and conversation...on...a...forum...is...good.

Carry on.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Why do you take Canon marketing speak as gospel? They also said that the R5 is not a replacement for the 5DIV.
> 
> My opinion is that Canon is trying to protect the value of the 1DX3 that many people have bought for $6,500, and now being superceded by a superior camera a year and a half later that will be cheaper.
> 
> So they continue to call the 1DX3 the flagship without stating why it is the flagship other than price.


Flagship is simply a marketing term.
It has little to do with actual sales.
What Canon calls a flagship really does not matter as much as what the media calls a flagship.
They do not really have to care what Canon says.
They currently refer to the R3 as Canon's flagship mirrorless camera.
The R5 used to have that title.


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## DBounce (Sep 10, 2021)

The R3 does not sit below the 1DXMK3. One is mirrorless the other is a DSLR. I think the point is, Canon is implying there will be a new mirrorless body that is above the R3. This is merely confirmation that the R1 is coming. Those that have used both have already confirmed that as a camera, the R3 trumps the 1DXMK3 in just about everything. As well it should… it’s a newer camera with a brand new Canon sensor.

To be accurate the R3 is the current Canon mirrorless flagship. Whereas the 1DXMK3 is the current Canon DSLR flagship. They are two different classes of camera.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

reef58 said:


> So you have tested them in real life. What was better about the Z9?


Fred is alphabetically correct.


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## bellorusso (Sep 10, 2021)

€6,099 is insane. 
R3 can't be anything above €4,099.


----------



## neurorx (Sep 10, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> 5200-5300 isn't bad at all, but part of me is still hopeful the USD will somehow come out to 5000.
> 
> In all reality, at 5000-ish, it's only the cost of one full day wedding gig, which is not bad at all for a lot of working professionals.


Yes a 5000 price tag would make the camera very attractive.


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## neurorx (Sep 10, 2021)

rick2 said:


> Probably for action shots like this
> 
> View attachment 200111


Those are the crazy eyes! I have an R5 but really would like a little better low light performance. 30 fps isnt as important even for sports in my opinion as it's just more to go through. 12-16 fps is the sweet spot. If I could have very clean 6000-12000 ISO files so I can consistently shoot at 1/1500-1/2000 sec in low light I would be very very happy.


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## neurorx (Sep 10, 2021)

I appreciate no one here likely has used it yet, but the most exciting thing about this camera to me (if it works well) would be the use of your eye to determine focus. Here's hoping that is awesome. The least interesting aspect is the SD card slot....now that I have used CFExpress, SD cards feel painful to use.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 10, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


The Nokishita tweet states that VAT of about 20% is included in the price.
I think France and Austria both have VAT of 20%, and their R5 price is 4500 euros. Since the USD price is $3900, you can divide the 4500 euro number by 1.154 to get the number in dollars for the R5.

If the number stayed exactly the same (1.154) we would get a pre-tax price of $5286.

Now, taking a look at the more recent prices leaked, to see if 1.154 is consistent...

For the 16mm lens, 350 Euros (european leaked price with 20% VAT) divided by 1.167 is $300 (USA leaked price). (Using 1.167 would give a projected R3 price of $5228)
For the 100-400mm lens, 750 Euros (european leaked price with 20% VAT) divided by 1.153 is $650 (USA leaked price). (Using 1.1583 would give a projected R3 price of $5285)

So, assuming the Nokishita leaked price is correct (their tweet says that the pricing is not final and still being edited), and assuming 20% VAT (again per Nokishita), and also assuming that the Euro to USD conversion factor used by Canon stays consistent with the factor used for the R5, 16mm, and 100-400mm, then we would see a pre-tax price in the range $5228-5286, which can be generalized to $5200-$5300.

This is a lot of assumptions.

Side note: $5200 would be "squarely between" the launch prices of the R5 and 1DXiii.


Edit to add two more recent lens releases, which would suggest prices closer to $5500-5600.
For the 100mm macro lens, 1549 Euros divided by 1.107 is $1399 (USA pre-tax price). (Using 1.107 would give a projected R3 price of $5508)
For the 14-35mm lens, 1849 Euros divided by 1.088 is $1699 (USA pre-tax price). (Using 1.088 would give a projected R3 price of $5604)


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## H. Jones (Sep 10, 2021)

neurorx said:


> The least interesting aspect is the SD card slot....now that I have used CFExpress, SD cards feel painful to use.


I do agree that I was hoping for dual CF express just to remove any difference between the slots, but I will accept that I appreciate that it's identical to the R5. I have a ProGrade CFExpress/SD reader for my R5, and will be getting a second one for the R3. So now I can copy all four cards with just two identical readers, vs three readers for my 1DX2/R5 combo. It's definitely going to streamline the laptop part of my camera backpack.

Hopefully, since it's only 24 MP, the SD card will still have a good buffer size. I would imagine so, since 300 MB/s SD cards are better than the 160 MB/s compact flash on the 1dx mark ii which still had an excellent buffer.


----------



## Joules (Sep 10, 2021)

bellorusso said:


> €6,099 is insane.
> R3 can't be anything above €4,099.


And what sane argument can be made for the R3 to be cheaper than the R5?


----------



## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 10, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The obvious thing would be 2 CFExpress cards.
> I am betting that Canon cut some others to keep the price lower.


We'll learn soon, but if the only thing setting their "flagship" 1DX3 apart from the R3 is the lack of a a CFExpress slot, that would not make much argument for the market continuing to accept the 1DX3 as such.


----------



## aceflibble (Sep 10, 2021)

So that's them screwing over the UK and EU, again. Doing the dollar-to-pound/euro conversions and adding on VAT comes in at a lot less than these prices. In the recent past Canon UK have claimed they're marking up to cover increased shipping fees, though why they think anyone will believe it costs an extra ~40% _per unit_ to ship Canon products around, but other manufacturers magically don't have these fees, is anyone's guess.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)

SHAMwow said:


> I don't understand what you're saying about AF and crosstype. Why would you bring up a type of AF that can only be compared across DSLR models, and then say mirrorless doesn't have that. Mirrorless is literally an entirely different AF...


No, it’s not – they function in the same way. Both DSLRs and Canon MILCs use phase detect AF (PDAF). Mirrorless cameras _can_ also use contrast detect AF, which is substantially slower but can be more accurate.

Canon’s dual pixel AF (DPAF) is the AF technology used in their MILCs (and in Live View on newer DSLRs) and uses split pixels to detect the phase difference, whereas DSLRs in viewfinder shooting use a dedicated AF sensor with paired line sensors. But DPAF is still phase-detect AF, the principle is the same – using the phase difference to determine the magnitude and direction of movement needed to achieve a match in phase (which is ‘in focus’).

With DPAF, the pixels are all split in the same direction, meaning they only detect phase differences in one orientation. Similarly, line-type sensors on a DSLR only detect a single orientation. If you've been in photography for a while, perhaps you remember the split prism in the middle of the focusing screen of a manual focus SLR. The 'split' was horizontal, so you had to look for a vertical feature to focus on for the prism to be effective. That's an analogy for how phase-detect works (except the DPAF pixels are split vertically, meaning they detect horizontal features only).

The dedicated PDAF sensors in very early DSLRs had only one direction of sensitivity like Canon's current MILCs, but soon they added line pairs in the orthogonal direction, first for just the center point, later for other points as well. The two pairs of line sensors at 90° to one another form a cross-type AF point that is sensitive to both horizontal and vertical features, and that's something that the DPAF used in Canon's MILCs cannot do, i.e. it is an advantage of DSLR AF. Even newer/higher end Canon DSLRs added diagonal crosses as well.

On the flip side, those AF point line pairs on a DSLR AF sensor are a fixed distance apart. That distance determines both the maximum lens aperture needed to use the AF point, and also the accuracy of that point. Those aspects are inversely related – the wider the baseline, the larger the lens aperture needed to use the AF point. So, there were f/5.6 AF points that were less accurate but worked with all EF lenses, and there were f/2.8 AF points with a wider baseline and greater accuracy that only worked with fast lenses. With DPAF, since all of the image sensor pixels are effectively AF points, they work with narrower apertures, which is we we're seeing f/8 and even f/11 max aperture lenses for MILCs.

Canon has a patent on a sensor with adjacent pixels split in orthogonal orientations, which will give MILCs cross-type focusing if/when implemented.




But until then (or until quad pixel AF, which would accomplish the same goal by splitting every pixel both horizontally and vertically), cross-type AF and the ability to focus on features of both horizontal and vertical orientation remains an advantage of DSLRs over MILCs, at least in a technical sense. Given that most things in the real world have features that exist in multiple orientations, the single-orientation DPAF focusing will do just fine in most situations.


----------



## H. Jones (Sep 10, 2021)

I strongly feel like the answer to a lot of questions about "flagship" will be answered when we find out the mechanical shutter of the R3. In the video that was posted by Peter McKinnon, I believe, it sounded like the R3's mechanical shutter was the same as the R5's 12 fps. I would hazard a guess that the R3 only does that same 12 FPS mechanical, and similarly drops to 8-9 FPS when the battery is close to empty. Clearly the selling point of the R3 is the electronic shutter, so my only hope for that is variable FPS to make it more practical. I also worry about anti-flicker shooting, which is huge for sports, but I'm hopeful Canon has a similar micro-adjust shutterspeed feature like the Sony A9 to let you match flickering lights with the electronic shutter.

When the R1 comes out with a quad-pixel global shutter, the flagship definition will be incredibly apparent for that camera.

I don't think Canon is ready to put the flagship definition onto a mirrorless camera until it can beat a DSLR in *every* way, and the lack of cross-type AF and minor electronic shutter warping on the R3 are probably two reasons why the 1DX mark III is still the flagship Canon camera. Neither is a major issue to me, and I will gladly take the R3 over my 1DX mark II, but it's still the nature of the current technology. Battery life is another significant question, and while the R3 seems to have greatly improved battery life over the R5 using a few years old LP-E19s, I'd expect an R1 will come with an upgraded new battery with better technology and life with it.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 10, 2021)

kaihp said:


> Yes and no. We have a 2 year warranty, while the US warranty is 1 year. Flying to the US and buying it here would not entitle your to the European warranty.
> Here in DK, the VAT is 25% just to add insult to injury. But we do have universal healthcare, which is nice. Just don't go the the dentist. The doctors have managed to convince everyone that if we go to _them_ payment should be covered by the universal healthcare, but if we _don't_ go to an MD, heaven forbid, but someone else (including a dentist) damn you all the way and you need to pay out of your own pocket. (grumble).
> €6100 is around +36% on the €4500 for the R5, so here in Denmark that would turn the 36.400DKK into an estimated 49.500DKK (slightly rounded up).
> Ouch, but still in line with my guesstimate.


This topic has been discussed ad nauseam here, but here it is again. The cost of healthcare doesn't come into it and neither does the two year warranty- we are being exploited. Here are the figures for the R5.
Cost in USA before tax (if any is paid): B&H $3899 - and pay by their Payboo card and they will pay the sales tax for you at no cost.
Price at WEX in the UK or the UK Canon store: £4299. Deduct 20% VAT and convert to $ = $4944, 27% more than the US.
Price at a very reliable UK grey market dealer (who I use): £3299 which includes a 3-year warranty. Deduct 20% VAT and convert to $ = $3794, slightly less than the US price. Further, CPW in the USA will find you a cheap deal.


----------



## Talys (Sep 10, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Why do you take Canon marketing speak as gospel? They also said that the R5 is not a replacement for the 5DIV.
> 
> My opinion is that Canon is trying to protect the value of the 1DX3 that many people have bought for $6,500, and now being superceded by a superior camera a year and a half later that will be cheaper.
> 
> So they continue to call the 1DX3 the flagship without stating why it is the flagship other than price.


I think that it's pretty safe to hypothesize that on the basis of price alone, R1 > R3 > R5 > R6.

I think that it's equally safe to hypothesize that the R1 won't be more expensive than the R3, and offer absolutely nothing more. It also is likely that the R1 might have a lower specification than R3, R5, or R6 in some aspect that matters to some people.

Most people understand the flagship camera to be the model which the vendor considers its highest end model, which does not mean the highest spec in every category, and certainly doesn't mean best fit, or even a good fit, for any particular use.


----------



## raptor3x (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> But until then (or until quad pixel AF, which would accomplish the same goal by splitting every pixel both horizontally and vertically), cross-type AF and the ability to focus on features of both horizontal and vertical orientation remains an advantage of DSLRs over MILCs, at least in a technical sense. Given that most things in the real world have features that exist in multiple orientations, the single-orientation DPAF focusing will do just fine in most situations.


Olympus has had cross-type OSPDAF since the E-M1ii and Samsung actually had it even earlier with the NX1.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)

raptor3x said:


> Olympus has had cross-type OSPDAF since the E-M1ii and Samsung actually had it even earlier with the NX1.


I was discussing Canon cameras, specifically. But I didn't make that clear.

Those manufacturers use a different technology, as does Sony. For those sensors, there are 'traditional' phase-detect AF line sensors embedded in the image sensor (embedded isn't really correct, they're just printed onto the sensor along with the image pixels). So the image sensor is actually a hybrid of an image sensor and a PDAF sensor. There are a fixed number of AF points in fixed locations, just like on a DSLR's PDAF sensor. For example, the Oly OM-D E-M1X has 121 cross-type AF points. Because those AF sensor lines are printed on the image sensor, the areas occupied by them do not provide image data, so those data must be interpolated from neighboring image pixels.

With Canon's DPAF, every image pixel can also be used as an AF pixel, so there are no image data lost that need to be replaced by interpolation, and AF points can be literally anywhere in the central ~80% of the image frame, not tied to specific locations as they are with the other manufacturer's implementation of MILC PDAF.


----------



## rbielefeld (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> No, it’s not – they function in the same way. Both DSLRs and Canon MILCs use phase detect AF (PDAF). Mirrorless cameras _can_ also use contrast detect AF, which is substantially slower but can be more accurate.
> 
> Canon’s dual pixel AF (DPAF) is the AF technology used in their MILCs (and in Live View on newer DSLRs) and uses split pixels to detect the phase difference, whereas DSLRs in viewfinder shooting use a dedicated AF sensor with paired line sensors. But DPAF is still phase-detect AF, the principle is the same – using the phase difference to determine the magnitude and direction of movement needed to achieve a match in phase (which is ‘in focus’).
> 
> ...


Excellent!


----------



## John Wilde (Sep 10, 2021)

fred said:


> Z9>R3 - at a similar price!!


Similar price? Nikon Germany lists the Nikon D6 at 7,299-euros. Since the Z9 is a flagship, it will be priced at least as high as the D6. As a practical matter, the Z9 apparently isn't even close to shipping.


----------



## Joules (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> With Canon's DPAF, every image pixel can also be used as an AF pixel, so there are no image data lost that need to be replaced by interpolation, and AF points can be literally anywhere in the central ~80% of the image frame, not tied to specific locations as they are with the other manufacturer's implementation of MILC PDAF.


Strictly speaking it is even better than 80 % now. From the official R5 specsheet:

"100% horizontal and 100% vertical with Face + Tracking and Auto Selection modes 100% horizontal and 90% vertical with manual selection and large zone modes (The AF area available vary depending on the lens use)"

Also, DPAF has some interesting applications that Canon hasn't really put much energy into. But there may come a time when they'll get serious with stuff like making use of the extra stop of highlight detail in the Dual Pixel RAW files, or the distance based lighting and landscape processing that one can play with in the R5. That's stuff that can't be done with a simple PDAF array.


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## fred (Sep 10, 2021)

reef58 said:


> So you have tested them in real life. What was better about the Z9?


45MP


----------



## AEWest (Sep 10, 2021)

Talys said:


> I think that it's pretty safe to hypothesize that on the basis of price alone, R1 > R3 > R5 > R6.
> 
> I think that it's equally safe to hypothesize that the R1 won't be more expensive than the R3, and offer absolutely nothing more. It also is likely that the R1 might have a lower specification than R3, R5, or R6 in some aspect that matters to some people.
> 
> Most people understand the flagship camera to be the model which the vendor considers its highest end model, which does not mean the highest spec in every category, and certainly doesn't mean best fit, or even a good fit, for any particular use.


I don’t know what the R1 will offer. 

But in terms of the R3 vs the 1DX3, the R3 offers considerable upgrades in most important areas like sensor, fps, mount, etc. Therefore I agree with Jared Polin that the R3 will be Canon's flagship until the R1 is introduced.


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## John Wilde (Sep 10, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I don’t know what the R1 will offer.
> 
> But in terms of the R3 vs the 1DX3, the R3 offers considerable upgrades in most important areas like sensor, fps, mount, etc. Therefore I agree with Jared Polin that the R3 will be Canon's flagship until the R1 is introduced.


The important thing about Canon calling the R3 a non-flagship is that it gives them an opportunity to price it lower than the current price of the 1DX3.


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## Cyborx (Sep 10, 2021)

I told you… 6k


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Therefore I agree with Jared Polin that the R3 will be Canon's flagship until the R1 is introduced.


At the risk of being pedantic, it's really not our call. Consider the meaning of the term, literally the ship that carries the flag, naval parlance for the command ship in a fleet. The ship carrying the admiral. The navy gets to choose which ship that is, if they want to put the admiral on a frigate instead of the aircraft carrier, the frigate is the flagship. In this case, the R3 is just a smaller aircraft carrier...a newer ship, in many ways a more capable ship, but Canon says the admiral isn't on it.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 10, 2021)

bergstrom said:


> What currency site are they using, jesus!!
> 
> Today $5500 is 4,648.6215 Euros as per https://www.xe.com/
> 
> ...


I am pretty sure they will give you a .0015 Euro rebate


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## Czardoom (Sep 10, 2021)

All the arguments about what is the "flagship" and what isn't. Forum dwellers, as they so often do, trying to prove they're smarter than the next. Well, this camera is better than that so it must be the flagship, etc. etc.

Of course, as Neuro points out (as he often does) that's not how it works. Many times when a new camera is released it will surpass all other models in one feature or another. Was the R5 the flagship because it did things no other Canon camera does? So, does that mean the flagship can continually change? I guess so, by so many people's reasoning. Canon has designated their "1" series camera as the flagship. They know that there will be a 1 series mirrorless camera released at some point. It matters not one iota whether the R3 is the "best" camera now. Why is that too complicated for so many to understand?


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 10, 2021)

turning back to the original post about the R3's price, I have to say, that I am not surpriced


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## raptor3x (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I was discussing Canon cameras, specifically. But I didn't make that clear.
> 
> Those manufacturers use a different technology, as does Sony. For those sensors, there are 'traditional' phase-detect AF line sensors embedded in the image sensor (embedded isn't really correct, they're just printed onto the sensor along with the image pixels). So the image sensor is actually a hybrid of an image sensor and a PDAF sensor. There are a fixed number of AF points in fixed locations, just like on a DSLR's PDAF sensor. For example, the Oly OM-D E-M1X has 121 cross-type AF points. Because those AF sensor lines are printed on the image sensor, the areas occupied by them do not provide image data, so those data must be interpolated from neighboring image pixels.
> 
> With Canon's DPAF, every image pixel can also be used as an AF pixel, so there are no image data lost that need to be replaced by interpolation, and AF points can be literally anywhere in the central ~80% of the image frame, not tied to specific locations as they are with the other manufacturer's implementation of MILC PDAF.


Most of this is correct, the only thing that I think can be refined is "There are a fixed number of AF points in fixed locations, just like on a DSLR's PDAF sensor." It's not quite that simple. On a DSLR the discrete AF points generally correspond to a single AF sensor, or pair/group of sensors, on the PDAF sensor. On the mirrorless bodies it works a bit different as you have PDAF pixels scattered pretty evenly throughout the entire sensor, or at least some fraction of the sensor. Technically the PDAF pixels themselves are identical, it's only the CFA array that has a metal mask covering one side of the grid for that pixel that is different. The camera then uses the readings from many different PDAF pixels to build the AF point that the user selects. On the Olympus bodies, as an example, there are many thousands of actual PDAF AF points scattered across the sensor, you can pretty easily see this through a number of means (direct optical inspect, defocused off-axis lighting conditions, numerical analysis of the RAW sensor data in the blue channel). You also see this behavior as while in the traditional fixed pattern modes the camera only operates on the 121 AF point grid in the tracking modes the camera starts selecting AF points that aren't available to user in between the selectable grid. The Canon bodies are very similar here, IIRC the R5 has around 6000 AF points but this is purely a firmware construct rather than an actual hardware feature.


----------



## canonmike (Sep 10, 2021)

unfocused said:


> For me, I am hoping for a buffer that clears faster, closer to the 1DXIII's nearly unlimited buffer. Smaller file size should mean I can download images faster and get to editing when I'm on deadline. The reduced viewfinder lag will make some of my studio shooting easier.
> 
> But my main reason is to consolidate everything into one lens mount. Even if I take a hit on the 1Dx III, I can sell my EF lenses and come out about even. But more importantly, I am damn tired of lugging around duplicate lenses when I need to use both bodies.





unfocused said:


> But more importantly, I am damn tired of lugging around duplicate lenses when I need to use both bodies


I couldn't agree more. I have an EF500 F4L is, an EF70-200 F2.8L is and more that I can use on my R6 via adapter but it is a little frustrating that I cannot use my RF100-500, RF100 macro, RF800 tele, RF14-35, etc. on any of my EF DSLR or M50 bodies. You can only carry so much gear around, so now I almost always make a conscious decision to take either my R6 and RF gear or my 6Dii,and EF gear, for instance but not both. The acquisition of the RF100-500 tele has caused me to mostly leave my EF500 F4L and Robus tripod behind these days. Due to SAWC, I take only my M series gear when hiking and/or backpack camping, making sure I have rain cover in hand, since the M series bodies and lenses are not weather sealed.


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## canonmike (Sep 10, 2021)

BuffaloBird said:


> Cost SHOULD be $100 per megapixel. Want $5,500 from me?--produce this camera with a 55MP sensor.
> 
> At the current rumors, this is double the value...to me.


Wow! $2400 for an R3 body. My friend, you are going to be waiting awhile, a long while......


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Wow! $2400 for an R3 body. My friend, you are going to be waiting awhile, a long while......


The RP has a 26 MP sensor and retails for $1300, that's only $50 per MP. So the R3 should only cost $1200.


----------



## jvillain (Sep 10, 2021)

Andy Westwood said:


> Canon are going to have to slash the price of the 1D X Mk III if the R3 is that much cheaper and by the sounds of it that much better too. Good news for most people I guess!


Not at all. Canon is getting out of the DSLR business. If you still want one you pay a premium or move onto the new offerings and oh ya, buy some expensive lenses while your at it.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> At the risk of being pedantic, it's really not our call. Consider the meaning of the term, literally the ship that carries the flag, naval parlance for the command ship in a fleet. The ship carrying the admiral. The navy gets to choose which ship that is, if they want to put the admiral on a frigate instead of the aircraft carrier, the frigate is the flagship. In this case, the R3 is just a smaller aircraft carrier...a newer ship, in many ways a more capable ship, but Canon says the admiral isn't on it.


That is nice Canon says that but the people's flagship right now is the R5.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)

jvillain said:


> Canon is getting out of the DSLR business.


I really don't understand why people keep saying this. The fact is that so far in 2021, 43% of the cameras shipped have been DSLRs, and there are really only two companies competing in that space, Canon and Nikon. Three years ago, 46% of the cameras shipped were DSLRs, so it's not like DSLR sales are falling rapidly. 

DSLRs represent a significant and relatively stable fraction of the ILC market, a fraction for which Canon dominates sales.

That means that either Canon is clueless because they really are getting out of the DSLR business, or that the people claiming Canon is getting out of the DSLR business are clueless because they have no understanding of the realities of the ILC market. My money is on the latter.


----------



## rbielefeld (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I really don't understand why people keep saying this. The fact is that so far in 2021, 43% of the cameras shipped have been DSLRs, and there are really only two companies competing in that space, Canon and Nikon. Three years ago, 46% of the cameras shipped were DSLRs, so it's not like DSLR sales are falling rapidly.
> 
> DSLRs represent a significant and relatively stable fraction of the ILC market, a fraction for which Canon dominates sales.
> 
> That means that either Canon is clueless because they really are getting out of the DSLR business, or that the people claiming Canon is getting out of the DSLR business are clueless because they have no understanding of the realities of the ILC market. My money is on the latter.


The question I have is Canon going to develop and bring to market any new DSLRs in the future? If not, then it could be stated that Canon is getting out of the DSLR business. I have not heard of a new DSLR in development by Canon (rumored or otherwise), but I may have missed it.


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## CanonGrunt (Sep 10, 2021)

Just saw Canon is pulling out of NAB this year. I wonder how that will affect the cinema product launches. I’ve been wondering how the video on the R3 will be, though I understand it’s not the main purpose of this camera. Still, seems promising all around.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)

rbielefeld said:


> The question I have is Canon going to develop and bring to market any new DSLRs in the future? If not, then it could be stated that Canon is getting out of the DSLR business. I have not heard of a new DSLR in development by Canon (rumored or otherwise), but I may have missed it.


In 2017, Canon launched 2 MILCs and 4 DSLRs.
In 2018, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs (and that's counting the R and Ra separately).
In 2019, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs.
In 2020, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs.
In 2021, Canon hasn't launched any ILCs.

If we didn't know the R3 was going to be announced next week, we might conclude that Canon is getting out of the ILC business. 

On Canon USA's website, there are 10 DSLRs and 11 MILCs listed for sale (ignoring various kits).

None of that sounds like Canon is getting out of the DSLR business any time soon. Will they, eventually? Sure. Then again, eventually the Sun will become a red giant and engulf the Earth.


----------



## kaihp (Sep 10, 2021)

AlanF said:


> This topic has been discussed ad nauseam here, but here it is again.


(bobbit)

This is not the right forum to discuss this, so I will just say that I disagree with your opinion.

Now, let's return to our scheduled pointless bickering over specs:

What's the buffer depth/size?
How fast can the R3 write to a CFexpress card?
What's the max burst length before it stutters? The measurements I saw (where?`) indicated that the R5 maxed out at roughly 300MB/sec, which is far below the write speed CFe cards (low end seem to be 800-1000MB/sec, high end 1600-1800MB/sec) and this could impact the maximum burst length
How many shots can it make on a full charge? (with some meaningless standardized test)
Which EF and RF lenses will support 12fps and 30fps shooting? - looks like my not-so-old EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS USM II can't do 12fps on the R5, which is a bummer 
Availability? First camera to first customer? General availability for us mortals?
Which CFe cards and card readers should we use?
EF-RF adapter have been sorted out: get the simplest EF-RF without control ring. If you have a specialist need for ND or CPOL, get the DI one (and be prepared to bleed out of your nose)


----------



## Chig (Sep 10, 2021)

kaihp said:


> Yes and no. We have a 2 year warranty, while the US warranty is 1 year. Flying to the US and buying it here would not entitle your to the European warranty.
> Here in DK, the VAT is 25% just to add insult to injury. But we do have universal healthcare, which is nice. Just don't go the the dentist. The doctors have managed to convince everyone that if we go to _them_ payment should be covered by the universal healthcare, but if we _don't_ go to an MD, heaven forbid, but someone else (including a dentist) damn you all the way and you need to pay out of your own pocket. (grumble).
> €6100 is around +36% on the €4500 for the R5, so here in Denmark that would turn the 36.400DKK into an estimated 49.500DKK (slightly rounded up).
> Ouch, but still in line with my guesstimate.


In New Zealand we have a sales tax of 15% and Canon sets a fairly high local price too of NZD*$6,800* (including sales tax) for an R5 vs NZD$5,500 from B&H. However we have a 5 year unlimited warranty here vs the USA 1 year limited warranty.
Also if I go on an overseas trip I can buy it Duty Free for $5,900 ( local shops will send the camera for you to collect from the airport). If I buy it this way I'm only paying an extra $400 and get our great local warranty.
If the R3 is USD$5,500 (NZD$7,700) then Canon NZ will probably charge about NZD$8,000-$8,500 + sales tax =$9,200-$9,800.
If you're a professional here (I'm not) and are GST registered you can claim the GST(sales tax) back anyway.


Can people in Europe buy cameras Duty Free when they travel? Can they claim sales tax back if they're pros?


----------



## rbielefeld (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> In 2017, Canon launched 2 MILCs and 4 DSLRs.
> In 2018, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs (and that's counting the R and Ra separately).
> In 2019, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs.
> In 2020, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs.
> ...


Okay, bear with me as I am a simplistic thinker and slow on the uptake a lot of times. We are debating whether Canon is _getting_ out of the DSLR business. So, if Canon does not release any additional DSLR camera bodies in the future, but relies on the DSLR models already on the market, does that not make the statement that Canon is _getting_ out of the DSLR business an accurate one? Canon has not _gotten_ out, because they still have DSLRs on the market a person can purchase, but they are getting out of the DSLR business, because they will not be offering any new DSLRs in the future. Of course Canon may still bring out a new DSLR, but I have not heard many entities stating there is a high likelihood of that happening. All in good fun.


----------



## kaihp (Sep 10, 2021)

Chig said:


> Can people in Europe buy cameras Duty Free when they travel? Can they claim sales tax back if they're pros?



You can only import things duty/VAT-free under a certain limit, when you are travelling (I think for Denmark it's around €300). Recently the EU abolished the minimum value limit, so now you get to pay VAT (and possibly duty) even from €0.01. In Denmark, that's not the killer for small value purchases - the PostNordf ixed "handling charge" at 160DKK (€21) is the killer. This makes buying from outside EU (I'm looking at *you, UK!*) a non-starter unless it is a major purchase (an R3 or a big white might be worthwhile).

If you are VAT registered, you can claim back the VAT (deduct it against the VAT you invoice).


----------



## unfocused (Sep 10, 2021)

rbielefeld said:


> Okay, bear with me as I am a simplistic thinker and slow on the uptake a lot of times. We are debating whether Canon is _getting_ out of the DSLR business. So, if Canon does not release any additional DSLR camera bodies in the future, but relies on the DSLR models already on the market, does that not make the statement that Canon is _getting_ out of the DSLR business an accurate one? Canon has not _gotten_ out, because they still have DSLRs on the market a person can purchase, but they are getting out of the DSLR business, because they will not be offering any new DSLRs in the future. Of course Canon may still bring out a new DSLR, but I have not heard many entities stating there is a high likelihood of that happening. All in good fun.


If Canon can migrate 90% of their DSLR customers to mirrorless they will get out of the DSLR business. If only 50% of their customers switch they will make new DSLRs. Anywhere in between is unknown.


----------



## Chig (Sep 10, 2021)

Andy Westwood said:


> “Replacement” I feel the word might be Discontinued!
> 
> Canon has this annoying habit of continuing to call models flagships even when newer models arrive and outperform them. Reviewers on Youtubers, JP for example was teasing Canon by calling the R3 a flagship even though he claimed Canon pacifically told him not to call the R3 a flagship.
> 
> ...


Not sure how the R3 will compare but the 1DXiii can acquire initial focus faster and more reliably than the R5/6 in high speed action and sometimes the R5/6 won't acquire focus at all even for static subjects like a small bird where it's focusing system can't "see" at all so you need to prefocus on a high contrast object at a similar distance first.
Apparently this is because the DSLR uses cross type focus sensors which no mirrorless cameras use as far as I know.

This is a crucial aspect that affects whether you get the shot or not which is probably why sports pros haven't switched to using R6s (or R5s) which have otherwise very similar specs and are much cheaper.

Be interesting to see whether the R3 has cross type sensors if that's possible with mirrorless or some other clever way of matching the functionality of top DSLRs in this area


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)

rbielefeld said:


> Okay, bear with me as I am a simplistic thinker and slow on the uptake a lot of times. We are debating whether Canon is _getting_ out of the DSLR business. So, if Canon does not release any additional DSLR camera bodies in the future, but relies on the DSLR models already on the market, does that not make the statement that Canon is _getting_ out of the DSLR business an accurate one? Canon has not _gotten_ out, because they still have DSLRs on the market a person can purchase, but they are getting out of the DSLR business, because they will not be offering any new DSLRs in the future. Of course Canon may still bring out a new DSLR, but I have not heard many entities stating there is a high likelihood of that happening. All in good fun.


Fair point. But since they do seem to be moving the upper side of the market to an emphasis on MILCs (more profitable, from what they’ve said), perhaps they are developing new downmarket DSLRs. If that’s the case, I would not expect we’d hear about that. I don’t recall ever seeing rumors or development announcements about new Rebel/Kiss/xxxD bodies, do you?


----------



## Toglife_Anthony (Sep 10, 2021)

unfocused said:


> If Canon can migrate 90% of their DSLR customers to mirrorless they will get out of the DSLR business. If only 50% of their customers switch they will make new DSLRs. Anywhere in between is unknown.


I would argue a huge chunk of Canon's DSLR market share is entry-level Rebel cameras - these folks likely wouldn't know any difference between a DSLR and mirrorless and ultimately buy the Rebel because it's cheap and on the Costco, Best Buy, and WalMart shelves. MAYBE they're simply looking for a slight upgrade from a point-and-shoot (i.e. ability to change lenses). That being said, if Canon opts to replace their Rebel line with equivalent mirrorless cameras, they can effectively _get_ out of the the DSLR business without losing much market share at all. If Canon pushes the envelope on cheap FF mirrorless cameras as one of the articles here indicated they may, it wouldn't make much sense to continue manufacturing not only DSLR's, but EF/EF-S lenses to go with it.


----------



## rbielefeld (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Fair point. But since they do seem to be moving the upper side of the market to an emphasis on MILCs (more profitable, from what they’ve said), perhaps they are developing new downmarket DSLRs. If that’s the case, I would not expect we’d hear about that. I don’t recall ever seeing rumors or development announcements about new Rebel/Kiss/xxxD bodies, do you?


Nope, that is true. They don't tell us lemmings about such things.


----------



## rbielefeld (Sep 10, 2021)

Toglife_Anthony said:


> I would argue a huge chunk of Canon's DSLR market share is entry-level Rebel cameras - these folks likely wouldn't know any difference between a DSLR and mirrorless and ultimately buy the Rebel because it's cheap and on the Costco, Best Buy, and WalMart shelves. MAYBE they're simply looking for a slight upgrade from a point-and-shoot (i.e. ability to change lenses). That being said, if Canon opts to replace their Rebel line with equivalent mirrorless cameras, they can effectively _get_ out of the the DSLR business without losing much market share at all. If Canon pushes the envelope on cheap FF mirrorless cameras as one of the articles here indicated they may, it wouldn't make much sense to continue manufacturing not only DSLR's, but EF/EF-S lenses to go with it.


I think this may be how this whole DSLR to MILC migration works out with Canon.


----------



## Del Paso (Sep 10, 2021)

kaihp said:


> You can only import things duty/VAT-free under a certain limit, when you are travelling (I think for Denmark it's around €300). Recently the EU abolished the minimum value limit, so now you get to pay VAT (and possibly duty) even from €0.01. In Denmark, that's not the killer for small value purchases - the PostNordf ixed "handling charge" at 160DKK (€21) is the killer. This makes buying from outside EU (I'm looking at *you, UK!*) a non-starter unless it is a major purchase (an R3 or a big white might be worthwhile).
> 
> If you are VAT registered, you can claim back the VAT (deduct it against the VAT you invoice).


If you buy in the USA for, say, $5000, are living in Germany, the end-bill will be $6677 (VAT $1066+ custom duties $611).
And the flight to New York isn't free either...
If you try to cheat and get caught, the R or the lens will cost about $10000. No comment


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)

Toglife_Anthony said:


> I would argue a huge chunk of Canon's DSLR market share is entry-level Rebel cameras - these folks likely wouldn't know any difference between a DSLR and mirrorless and ultimately buy the Rebel because it's cheap and on the Costco, Best Buy, and WalMart shelves. MAYBE they're simply looking for a slight upgrade from a point-and-shoot (i.e. ability to change lenses). That being said, if Canon opts to replace their Rebel line with equivalent mirrorless cameras, they can effectively _get_ out of the the DSLR business without losing much market share at all. If Canon pushes the envelope on cheap FF mirrorless cameras as one of the articles here indicated they may, it wouldn't make much sense to continue manufacturing not only DSLR's, but EF/EF-S lenses to go with it.


That is happening to some extent in Japan, where MILC adoption is higher but cheap DSLRs still sell.

In North America, there remains a perception that DSLRs are ‘real cameras’ and that may be difficult to overcome in broad swaths of the region. The ~1% per year shift in market share from DSLR to MILC that we’ve seen for the past 5 years suggests _getting out _of DSLRs is quite a ways off.


----------



## Chig (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> No, it’s not – they function in the same way. Both DSLRs and Canon MILCs use phase detect AF (PDAF). Mirrorless cameras _can_ also use contrast detect AF, which is substantially slower but can be more accurate.
> 
> Canon’s dual pixel AF (DPAF) is the AF technology used in their MILCs (and in Live View on newer DSLRs) and uses split pixels to detect the phase difference, whereas DSLRs in viewfinder shooting use a dedicated AF sensor with paired line sensors. But DPAF is still phase-detect AF, the principle is the same – using the phase difference to determine the magnitude and direction of movement needed to achieve a match in phase (which is ‘in focus’).
> 
> ...


Perhaps the R3 will have this feature from the patent ?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 10, 2021)

Chig said:


> Perhaps the R3 will have this feature from the patent ?


That would be a pleasant surprise. It’s reported to have, “…an updated version of Dual Pixel CMOS AF.” That could mean many things.


----------



## john1970 (Sep 10, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> That would be a pleasant surprise. It’s reported to have, “…an updated version of Dual Pixel CMOS AF.” That could mean many things.


For me cross-type AF on the R3 would be the icing on the cake. I doubt it would be there, but one never knows. We will know in four more days.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 10, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> 5200-5300 isn't bad at all, but part of me is still hopeful the USD will somehow come out to 5000.
> 
> In all reality, at 5000-ish, it's only the cost of one full day wedding gig, which is not bad at all for a lot of working professionals.


Psychologically when people see 5,200 or 5,300 they think 5,000.
No way it will be 5,000.
It will probably either be 4,999 or 5X99
That one dollar may seem silly but they price things like that for a reason.


----------



## reef58 (Sep 11, 2021)

fred said:


> 45MP


Is the 5dsr better than both then?


----------



## canonmike (Sep 11, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> The RP has a 26 MP sensor and retails for $1300, that's only $50 per MP. So the R3 should only cost $1200.


I do like your math. I'll take three of them, please....


----------



## FrenchFry (Sep 11, 2021)

Nokishita is now saying $5999 for the R3 in the US.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> Nokishita is now saying $5999 for the R3 in the US.



From yesterday:


neuroanatomist said:


> So perhaps $5999 US…


----------



## FrenchFry (Sep 11, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> From yesterday:


well done. 

Hopefully this gets revised downwards though.


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## EOS 4 Life (Sep 11, 2021)

FrenchFry said:


> Nokishita is now saying $5999 for the R3 in the US.
> View attachment 200125


That seems too high


----------



## FrenchFry (Sep 11, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> That seems too high


I very much agree! That's why I'm hoping it gets revised downwards. I know Nokishita has an excellent (perfect?) track record, but it seems at least somewhat possible that if they are looking at unpublished data they could be looking at a placeholder number. 
I'm trying to hold out hope that it's a mistake.


----------



## scottburgess (Sep 11, 2021)

BuffaloBird said:


> Cost SHOULD be $100 per megapixel. Want $5,500 from me?--produce this camera with a 55MP sensor.



Pricing of cameras depends significantly on the silicon chips they contain. Pricing of silicon chips is mostly a cubic function of die area, though fabrication unit, technology node and a couple other elements are lesser factors. All full-frame sensor chips have the same die area, 24mm x 36mm. Hence there is no direct relationship between megapixels and sensor chip cost, nor "SHOULD" there be. Reasons an R3 (or 1Dx Mark III) costs more to produce include a high-end autofocus system, more powerful image processing chips (including better movie support), improved I/O subsystems, and hardware built to higher tolerances than for amateur cameras. Also, pricing has to be higher because R/D costs are spread across far fewer units than for amateur cameras, and typically R/D costs are higher for a more advanced camera.

Additionally, I'll note that the resolution improvement from 24Mp to 55Mp is about 50%, which is not that significant (to double resolution from 24Mp requires approximately a 100Mp sensor). Many amateurs don't adequately stabilize their equipment to fully take advantage of 40Mp+ resolution anyway--nor is that level of resolution useful for most professional publication outlets or for common amateur print sizes around 13" x 19". Even 16" x 24" gallery prints from my old 10Mp camera look great and no one ever complains about their resolution, even today. 

Improvements in autofocus, flash control, low-light sensitivity, and burst speed/depth would all be of greater value to me than more megapixels. If I desire more megapixels in landscape work, it is often easier to use a TS-E lens Rogeti-mounted to a tripod for a "perfect stitch" that is effectively like medium format digital cameras on the market but at a tiny fraction of their cost.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> At the risk of being pedantic, it's really not our call. Consider the meaning of the term, literally the ship that carries the flag, naval parlance for the command ship in a fleet. The ship carrying the admiral. The navy gets to choose which ship that is, if they want to put the admiral on a frigate instead of the aircraft carrier, the frigate is the flagship. In this case, the R3 is just a smaller aircraft carrier...a newer ship, in many ways a more capable ship, but Canon says the admiral isn't on it.


Incidentally, it’s probably relevant to (re)read what a Canon exec said on the matter. 

_We still consider the EOS-1D X Mark III to be our flagship professional camera due to its extreme reliability and confidence it delivers in the hands of professionals. However, it is true that the EOS R3 exceeds the EOS-1D X Mark III in some specifications, to the extent which, by the conventional definition, you could consider it a flagship camera.

While the RF system is a major evolution of the EF system, we believe that in order to bestow an RF camera with the “1” model designation, we must achieve an even greater level of performance, and we continue to work towards reaching those high standards._


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## xps (Sep 11, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> That was a rumor.
> This is a leak.


But it seems to be a right rumor ;-)


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## xps (Sep 11, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Incidentally, it’s probably relevant to (re)read what a Canon exec said on the matter.
> 
> _We still consider the EOS-1D X Mark III to be our flagship professional camera due to its extreme reliability and confidence it delivers in the hands of professionals. However, it is true that the EOS R3 exceeds the EOS-1D X Mark III in some specifications, to the extent which, by the conventional definition, you could consider it a flagship camera.
> 
> While the RF system is a major evolution of the EF system, we believe that in order to bestow an RF camera with the “1” model designation, we must achieve an even greater level of performance, and we continue to work towards reaching those high standards._


Listened to some well known international photojournalists. There is still no need to upgrade the MP count,as they often shoot some thousands shots when on scene. So transmitting, editing and so on is faster. And most newspapers, news agencies,... do not need more resolution. The pictures should be able to be sometimes heavily optimized in post and still looking good. And the body has to be reliable and ruggedized. If you see, how the journalists take less care of the equipment and how often, in critical situations the equipent is punched and dropped, they really need an sturdy body and also premium lenses.


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## Chig (Sep 11, 2021)

xps said:


> Listened to some well known international photojournalists. There is still no need to upgrade the MP count,as they often shoot some thousands shots when on scene. So transmitting, editing and so on is faster. And most newspapers, news agencies,... do not need more resolution. The pictures should be able to be sometimes heavily optimized in post and still looking good. And the body has to be reliable and ruggedized. If you see, how the journalists take less care of the equipment and how often, in critical situations the equipent is punched and dropped, they really need an sturdy body and also premium lenses.


Plus they know what they're doing and have the appropriate lenses for each situation and nearly every shot is properly exposed and in focus and only might need minimal cropping and they won't be messing around with RAW files and Lightroom/Photoshop just using the jpegs straight out of the camera.
20-24mp is more than enough for them especially as it'll wind up in a newspaper photo or a compressed image on the internet.
Sports pros pretty similar and with them they know the probable lighting (usually a well lit stadium) and situations in sports games and they have all the right gear of course : top glass and fast reliable bodies.
Huge files from 45-50mp sensors would be a nuisance for them.


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## Alex784 (Sep 11, 2021)

I am planning to switch to RF mount.
Should I trade-in my 1DX3 now or wait for R1 ?


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## lawny13 (Sep 11, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> Isn't this usually the case? That it would be cheaper for someone in Europe to fly to NYC, buy the camera, and fly back? Of course, you would have to pay VAT on entry if I recall the rules. It always seems to be a matter of contention on these forums whenever a new camera is released. I don't think this was an actual currency conversion, but rather a conversion based on price differences with current products. It's always cheaper in the US


Well prices in Europe include the tax while in the US it doesn’t.

So you can’t just fly to NYC. You would have to order the camera from out of NY state and have it delivered to where you will be stating in NYC to avoid taxes completely (this changed though right? So you would have to order from B&H since they negate the tax).

Then on your way back, you would have to basically make sure you don’t have the box, and have packed it “used” and pretend that you had bought it in Europe. I have had them check if any of my lenses were bought in Europe or not (though they all have been). So though you are lying if you say you have nothing to declare, 99.9% they don’t actually check the origin of your electronics.

But if you do declare it… yes that 19-21% tax would apply.


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## Del Paso (Sep 11, 2021)

I must say it: it's a beautiful camera!


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## Chig (Sep 11, 2021)

Alex784 said:


> I am planning to switch to RF mount.
> Should I trade-in my 1DX3 now or wait for R1 ?


If you don't mind waiting 3 years until the Paris Olympics  

In the mean time have a look at the R3


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## Cyborx (Sep 12, 2021)

6000 euros .. I was spot-on.
That is just too much for a 24mpix camera


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 12, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> 6000 euros .. I was spot-on.


Were you, though?



Cyborx said:


> I seriously think Canon will make the R3 around 4900 euro's.
> 
> 3999 euro's is a good price for a non flagship.





Cyborx said:


> ok, I’ll stick to 4999-5999,- euros.



If you throw around enough crap, at least some of it will stick to the wall.


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## koenkooi (Sep 12, 2021)

pic said:


> [..]What does stand out: I never got picked out while travelling with the wife, and get picked out rather often while traveling solo while carrying a lot of gear (large camera bag+laptop bag).


Pro-tip: don't have a name that is similar to one on the watch-list. I haven't been able to use e-passport gates in the past 8 years or so, they always "malfunction" and someone in uniform with firearms shows up for a manual check. And the "random" carry-on checks at the gate pick me 9 times out of 10. And when travelling to the US the TSA is always kind enough to repack and refold everything in the checked luggage and leave a handy flyer that can be used as a bookmark.

But I haven't had a customs inspection since 2008, so maybe they use a different watch-list


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## AdamBotond (Sep 12, 2021)

bergstrom said:


> What currency site are they using, jesus!!
> 
> Today $5500 is 4,648.6215 Euros as per https://www.xe.com/
> 
> ...


This has been the way for quite some time now. It sucks to be a Canon customer in Europe what can I say!?


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## aceflibble (Sep 12, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> 6000 euros .. I was spot-on.
> That is just too much for a 24mpix camera


Resolution doesn't matter for a camera optimised for sports and news. In fact, if anything, 24mp is a little on the high side. If you walk down the sidelines and check all the 1D X IIs, IIIs, and 7D IIs in use, you'll find most of them are set to medium jpg.

With these sorts of cameras you are _never_ paying for the resolution. You're paying for the durability, reliability, speed, and connections.


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## fred (Sep 12, 2021)

reef58 said:


> Is the 5dsr better than both then?


no


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## reef58 (Sep 12, 2021)

fred said:


> no


It has 50mp so it must be a better camera? You said 45 is better than 24, so surely 50 is better than 45.


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## FrenchFry (Sep 12, 2021)

pic said:


> Don't forget US prices are without (sales) taxes - EU prices include VAT (between 19 and 25% or so depending on where you live/buy the gear) and (sometimes?) even recycling charges etc.
> 
> Also, import duties might vary between the US and the EU depending on what protectionist measures / international deals / trade wars are in effect between either of them and Japan.
> 
> ...


Nokishita is the source of the price leak and they stated VAT of about 20%.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 12, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> 6000 euros .. I was spot-on.
> That is just too much for a 24mpix camera



The Nikon D6 and Canon 1DX Mark 3 are less MP and cost more.


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## David - Sydney (Sep 13, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> I'm in the same boat here. The only two things I don't love about my R5 are the buffer and the (slight) electronic shutter warping. The 1dx2 and 1dx3 buffer is actually unlimited, you can fill any card before it hits the buffer. I would bet the R3 can match that, easily. Whereas the R5(and even the A1) both have a buffer of maybe 50-80 raw images. That sounds like a lot until you're holding down the shutter and hitting the buffer in 2 or 3 seconds of action. Whereas on the 1dx mark II, if something incredible is happening, I can just hold down the shutter for the next 30 seconds and have every single frame in perfect detail.
> 
> I am more than happy with my 1dx2 as a secondary camera to the R5, but like you said, it's annoying having duplicate lenses to worry about.
> 
> ...


Do you have the same problem when using cRaw files? The buffer depth is much deeper then.


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## SteveC (Sep 13, 2021)

Alex784 said:


> I am planning to switch to RF mount.
> Should I trade-in my 1DX3 now or wait for R1 ?


You could also consider the R5 and R6.


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## Maximilian (Sep 14, 2021)

7.299,- € is the first price I could find in Germany yet.








CANON Eos R3 bei Digitfoto.de


spiegellose Profi-Vollformatkamera - für prof. Sport-Fotografie und Filmen - Stacked BSI CMOS-Sensor, DIGIC X Prozessor



www.digitfoto.de





We'll have to wait, if this will be confirmed by other stores or not.

5.999,- € price in Germany at several stores.


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## kaihp (Sep 14, 2021)

pic said:


> *If you don't: *
> 
> Customs in Europe can and will inspect luggage not just on your first return trip, but on every single return trip from outside the EU and can and will demand to see invoices of paid VAT on such items you bring back.
> (snip)
> ...



I've never been checked, but I totally agree on your points. One challenge for me is that I purchased a 300/2.8 while living outside of the EU, which I later legally imported into the EU as part of my personal belongings when I moved back. But I have zero ability to prove that on the spot.

BTW, I carried a ThinkTank retrospective 30 filled to the brim with camera gear (5D3, 4-5 lenses) without getting stopped in AMS and CPH airports. Fortune Favours the Fools, I guess.


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## AlanF (Sep 14, 2021)

Maximilian said:


> 5.999,- € price in Germany at several stores.


It's £5789 in the UK, which corresponds to 6,796 €. Once again, it's a 13% price gouge in the UK over the EU by Canon Europe, 800 € more. If I were to buy, I'll wait until the price settles down and go to a reliable grey market dealer.


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## Maximilian (Sep 14, 2021)

AlanF said:


> It's £5789 in the UK, which corresponds to 6,796 €. Once again, it's a 13% price gouge in the UK over the EU ...



I don't like that extrem market milking.


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## AlanF (Sep 14, 2021)

Maximilian said:


> I don't like that extrem market milking.


I am old enough to remember the UK being price gouged before we had the single market, and knew it would happen again after Brexit.


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## kaihp (Sep 14, 2021)

Full specifications from Canon: https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-r3/specifications/
@Canon Rumors Guy


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 14, 2021)

kaihp said:


> Full specifications from Canon: https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-r3/specifications/


For everyone wondering what will differentiate the R1: “AF point-linked spot metering not provided.”


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## FrenchFry (Sep 14, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> For everyone wondering what will differentiate the R1: “AF point-linked spot metering not provided.”


To be honest this seems like this could have been included at this price point. Competitors do it for entry level cameras, and it's a nice feature.


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