# Canon announces development of the EOS R5 full-frame mirrorless camera



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 13, 2020)

> The Company will Also Develop Seven RF Lenses and Two RF Lens Extenders in 2020
> MELVILLE, NY, February 12, 2020 – Canon U.S.A. Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today announced that its parent company, Canon Inc., is developing the highly anticipated Canon EOS R5 full-frame mirrorless camera. The camera will feature a newly designed CMOS sensor and new image processor, along with new state-of-the-art optical technologies the company has been able to cultivate through its long history of groundbreaking camera and digital imaging solutions development. In addition, Canon plans to release seven RF lenses and two RF lens extenders that are currently in development. These new photography tools will help to continue to strengthen the EOS R system and cement the RF mount as an industry leader.
> 
> “Today’s announcement comes as a direct result of the tireless effort of Canon engineers who have been tasked with developing the next generation of...



Continue reading...


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## vjlex (Feb 13, 2020)

_Awesome! It's official! _


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## jolyonralph (Feb 13, 2020)

Interested in the extenders. My guess is that unlike EF extenders they'll work with any RF lens and probably even the RF-EF adaptors and therefore any EF lens too


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

I'm pretty sure that's bingo for anyone who thought the phrase f/7.1L was going to happen




- A


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## NorskHest (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I'm pretty sure that's bingo for anyone who thought the phrase f/7.1L was going to happen
> 
> View attachment 188644
> 
> ...


hahahaha amazing
side note: think of all that time that was spent on the other thread about the camera being photo shopped


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## David - Sydney (Feb 13, 2020)

Is it just me or the details are less than we expected (R6?) or at least wanted confirmed from the rumours? Only thing new is the aperture for the RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1 and confirmation on extenders. Extenders on the 100-500mm will need some high ISO if the shutter speed is high. Having a ~70mm front element should mean a reasonable price and size though


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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

I know it's just a development announcement but was hoping there would be a bit more details... this is far less than the rumors! But still great to have confirmation


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## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I'm pretty sure that's bingo for anyone who thought the phrase f/7.1L was going to happen
> 
> View attachment 188644
> 
> ...



The 100-500 appears to have four control rings. 

Same look and feel as the magnificent RF70-200.


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> Interested in the extenders. My guess is that unlike EF extenders they'll work with any RF lens and probably even the RF-EF adaptors and therefore any EF lens too




Maybe not all the EF-RF adaptors -- the CPL one may block the T/C protruding element.

But yes (maybe?) on the other two EF-RF adaptors I think?

- A


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## Ozarker (Feb 13, 2020)

It sure would have been nice of them to release a list of all the lenses to be released.


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

Limited on details even for a development announcement. But hey! All great news! Looking like April release.


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## Chaitanya (Feb 13, 2020)

Starting new savings for this body. Also Tony Northrup will be eating s*** today.


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## davidhfe (Feb 13, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> I know it's just a development announcement but was hoping there would be a bit more details... this is far less than the rumors! But still great to have confirmation



Confirms the marquee features:

- EIGHT-FREEKIN-KAY video
- ~45mp (inferred; the sensor has to be this big to hit 8K)
- 12/20
- IBIS


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## Laslen (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> The 100-500 appears to have four control rings.
> 
> Same look and feel as the magnificent RF70-200.


One is a tightening ring. Not control ring.


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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Limited on details even for a development announcement. But hey! All great news! Looking like April release.


Ah I thought the April comment was for the cloud service thing....


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## Mechanical_EYE (Feb 13, 2020)




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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

Mechanical_EYE said:


> View attachment 188645


Beauty


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## Max TT (Feb 13, 2020)

Much of that we knew already, where is the efffing pricing.

7 new lenses in 2020 awesome stuff. But was expecting more details about body.


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## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

They also announced the RF24-105 f4-7.1 IS STM





キヤノン：RF24-105mm F4-7.1 IS STM｜概要


交換レンズ RF24-105mm F4-7.1 IS STM の概要をご紹介しているページです。




cweb.canon.jp





The video makes it clear that you can take pictures of little things like coffee beans. Is that a thing? I can’t read the menus but could they have a limitable macro close focus distance. That’s my complaint about the RF 35.


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## EverydayPhotographer (Feb 13, 2020)

Welp, that’s about it. I think 2020 is the year that I start dumping money into the R series. Can’t wait to see what the 100-500 yields image-wise. Is there a link to more info on the lens announcements?


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## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> One is a tightening ring. Not control ring.



Thanks. To prevent zoom droop. Apparently not needed on the RF 70-200.


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## unfocused (Feb 13, 2020)

Mechanical_EYE said:


> View attachment 188645


That layout is a lot better than the R. Much more like a 5D.


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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> That layout is a lot better than the R. Much more like a 5D.


SO much better. So happy.


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

This all screams: 
_
Sony may announce something soon, but who cares?

Canon loves you._

- A


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> Ah I thought the April comment was for the cloud service thing....


I may well have mis-interpreted


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Tilty-flippy AND something resembling a small 5D thumb wheel

The body is still small, but this seems way better. Touch bar RIP?




- A


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## Roo (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> The 100-500 appears to have four control rings.
> 
> Same look and feel as the magnificent RF70-200.



Focus, zoom and the RF customisable one. The fourth is likely a tension ring for the zoom ring movement


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## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

The 24-105 STM has a “center focus” close up mode. This menu may relate to that:


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## arbitrage (Feb 13, 2020)

Wow....Thom Hogan was spot on with his article earlier today: http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2020-mirrorless-camera/lenses-let-through-less.html

This trend to slower and slower apertures is disturbing. I've managed to sort of adapt to my Sony 200-600 at f/6.3 but now "only" 500mm and another 1/3 stop loss of light? Enough already


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## RayValdez360 (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> They also announced the RF24-105 f4-7.1 IS STM
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PROBABLY THE BEST commercial i have ever seen from canon. even though I dont want the lens.


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> That layout is a lot better than the R. Much more like a 5D.


Agreed. But not surprising considering this cameras given name


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## Laslen (Feb 13, 2020)

Probably unpopular opinion:

I must say, as someone who has used the Sony 200-600 (which maxes out at f6.3 and is internal zoom), the 100-500 doesn't particularly impress me. Unless it's significantly cheaper, but I seriously doubt it will be. I suppose they're trying to keep the lenses smaller, like the RF 70-200.


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## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Tilty-flippy AND something resembling a small 5D thumb wheel
> 
> The body is still small, but this seems way better. Touch bar RIP?
> 
> ...



If the body is bigger than an R then that screen might be too.


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## Tom W (Feb 13, 2020)

Want the camera.

the 00-500 seems like it may have some relationship with the 100-400 II.
400 f/5.6 with a 1.25x gives 500 at f/7.1. It’ll be similar in size to the 100-400, I’m guessing. Very portable.


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## cosmopotter (Feb 13, 2020)

Mechanical_EYE said:


> View attachment 188645


Looks like a traditional joystick beside the AF ON button Not the new selector from the 1D3


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## sanj (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Limited on details even for a development announcement. But hey! All great news! Looking like April release.


How do you say April? That would be nice


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## sanj (Feb 13, 2020)

Wish I could know more about video specs. Would have like to compare those to 1dx3


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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

sanj said:


> How do you say April? That would be nice


I think he read the part that was sayin the cloud service will be up around April...


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## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> Probably unpopular opinion:
> 
> I must say, as someone who has used the Sony 200-600 (which maxes out at f6.3 and is internal zoom), the 100-500 doesn't particularly impress me. Unless it's significantly cheaper, but I seriously doubt it will be. But I suppose they're trying to keep the lenses smaller, like the RF 70-200.



Can you offer reasons? Do you like the Sony? Do you see them as similar or different? 

I presume the 100-500 zooms externally
Like the RF70-200.


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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

sanj said:


> Wish I could know more about video specs. Would have like to compare those to 1dx3


Me too. was really hoping to know if there would be a 6k posssible, or the 4k framerates/cropping


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## Ozarker (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> Probably unpopular opinion:
> 
> I must say, as someone who has used the Sony 200-600 (which maxes out at f6.3 and is internal zoom), the 100-500 doesn't particularly impress me. Unless it's significantly cheaper, but I seriously doubt it will be. I suppose they're trying to keep the lenses smaller, like the RF 70-200.


Very stealthy at the beach where sunshine isn't a problem.


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

Is it me or does that back AF button look like the older flavor? Not like the new one on the DX3 with touch and drag AF point selection? That would really suck if it doesn't have that bad-ass feature.


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## Tom W (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> They also announced the RF24-105 f4-7.1 IS STM
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that’s a slick video. Makes me want it, even though I have the f/4 24-105.


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## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> - EIGHT-FREEKIN-KAY video


I should have tradmarked this


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> If the body is bigger than an R then that screen might be too.




Earlier review of the french photo implied it was highly similar to the R in general size. It's not 5D-wide or tall or anything.

- A


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

sanj said:


> How do you say April? That would be nice


One of the press releases said April 2020, but it may be referring to the Cloud service. The sentence structure left it open for interpretation. I kinda think Canon would LOVE to have this in hands of the Olympics same as the DX3 though


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## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Maybe not all the EF-RF adaptors -- the CPL one may block the T/C protruding element.
> 
> But yes (maybe?) on the other two EF-RF adaptors I think?
> 
> - A



They’d be crazy not to offer a mechanically lengthened version of each TC for use with EF big whites.


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## Laslen (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Can you offer reasons? Do you like the Sony? Do you see them as similar or different?
> 
> I presume the 100-500 zooms externally
> Like the RF70-200.


The Sony is nice, but I'm sure the Canon will have better optics and build. I was just hoping they'd compete directly and make a 200-600mm. Personally I prefer the internal zoom but that's a controversial topic.


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## David - Sydney (Feb 13, 2020)

Looks like scroll wheel from 5D. Like the layout... Can we tell if the joystick is old one or fancy 1DXiii? 
Confirmation on angled top view from Canon Australia email


Mechanical_EYE said:


> View attachment 188645


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> Me too. was really hoping to know if there would be a 6k posssible, or the 4k framerates/cropping




Think about serial TV -- the best reveals don't give you everything. They want us on the hook (for what might be) through whatever Sony announces next.

- A


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## Bangrossi (Feb 13, 2020)

Are canon will be ******* again this time? 

I guess the R5 price will be around $3500-4000


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

That 360 rotation on the Japanese site looks pretty beefy for a MILC. Maybe bigger than the R. Which would be really really nice. This camera should come out and fit perfectly in the hands of current 5D pros. That's the #1 thing 'I'd want if Im Canon


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## NiktoCan (Feb 13, 2020)

shunsai said:


> _Awesome! It's official! _


Good bye Nikon - here I come!


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Looks like scroll wheel from 5D, fancy joystick from 1DXiii. confirmation on angled top view from Canon Australia email




I"m betting that's a not 5D-sized scroll wheel, but people will be posting overlays on 5D4 and EOS R in 3, 2, 1...

- A


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## Laslen (Feb 13, 2020)

Bangrossi said:


> Are canon will be ******* again this time?
> 
> I guess the R5 price will be around $3500-4000


My conservative guess was $3299 and the Facebook groups told me "In your dreams dude."

We shall see.


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

Bangrossi said:


> Are canon will be ******* again this time?
> 
> I guess the R5 price will be around $3500-4000


Ive been saying $3500 range. So yes. This is a 5D series. Priced accordingly


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## unfocused (Feb 13, 2020)

From Canon USA Press Release:



> A preview of the EOS R5 will be on display at the 2020 WPPI Show (February 25-27) in Las Vegas.



Looks like the wait won't be long for a lot of details. At least we should know the type of cards and probably confirm the resolution. It will be interesting to see how fast and accurate the autofocus is. I hope it doesn't hunt and lose focus like the R. Otherwise that 500mm zoom won't be of much use to birders.


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## sanj (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> One of the press releases said April 2020, but it may be referring to the Cloud service. The sentence structure left it open for interpretation. I kinda think Canon would LOVE to have this in hands of the Olympics same as the DX3 though


Lets HOPE


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> My conservative guess was $3299 and the Facebook groups told me "In your dreams dude."
> 
> We shall see.


Find better Facebook groups. If they think this camera will be $5000, then they have been smoking Tony Northrup's clown show crack pipe again


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## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> The Sony is nice, but I'm sure the Canon will have better optics and build. I was just hoping they'd compete directly and make a 200-600mm. Personally I prefer the internal zoom but that's a controversial topic.



The 100-200 range is far more useful to me than the 500-600. 

Although a 2x TC makes the RF70-200 a 140-400 f5.6 and thus mostly redundant, the 100-500 might be tempting.


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## brad-man (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Tilty-flippy AND something resembling a small 5D thumb wheel
> 
> The body is still small, but this seems way better. Touch bar RIP?
> 
> ...


Joy stick >>>touch bar. I was really hoping they'd bring back the print button...


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## felipeolveram (Feb 13, 2020)

Where is the link to the official announcement?


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## sanj (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Find better Facebook groups. If they think this camera will be $5000, then they have been smoking Tony Northrup's clown show crack pipe again


I think $3500


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> From Canon USA Press Release:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the wait won't be long for a lot of details. At least we should know the type of cards and probably confirm the resolution. It will be interesting to see how fast and accurate the autofocus is. I hope it doesn't hunt and lose focus like the R. Otherwise that 500mm zoom won't be of much use to birders.


That's the same time as CP+. No coincidence. We will know a LOT that weekend then


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## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Find better Facebook groups. If they think this camera will be $5000, then they have been smoking Tony Northrup's clown show crack pipe again



Digital technology always gets better and cheaper. Moore’s Law applies to imaging.


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## David - Sydney (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I"m betting that's a not 5D-sized scroll wheel, but people will be posting overlays on 5D4 and EOS R in 3, 2, 1...
> 
> - A


I can accept a smaller wheel... depending if an underwater camera housing can still move it okay


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## noms78 (Feb 13, 2020)

Mechanical_EYE said:


> View attachment 188645


lack of mechanical mode dial and separate video switch are the only negatives so far


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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

Back of the camera from canon official



キヤノン：EOS R5 特長紹介


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## brad-man (Feb 13, 2020)

sanj said:


> I think $3500


OK. I'll play. My guess is $3899


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## Rixy (Feb 13, 2020)

Release in June?


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## felipeolveram (Feb 13, 2020)

__





The EOS R5 | Press Release | Canon U.S.A., Inc.


Press Release Details: The Next Generation: Canon Announces The Development Of The Company’s Most Advanced Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera Ever – The EOS R5.




www.usa.canon.com


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## unfocused (Feb 13, 2020)

1DxIII, R5 and seven lenses. Canon, you are forcing me to delay retirement.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Feb 13, 2020)

Checks most of the boxes for me. I’m not optimistic that I’ll be owning one of these in 2020 but I guess it could happen. The marketing speak on 8k is pretty fuzzy so I don’t think that’s settled yet. I don’t particularly want/need 8k so its fine with me if they sample down. Can’t wait to see some demos.


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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

Rixy said:


> Release in June?


think that would be a very best case scenario if we're lucky... somehow feel l iek it'll take some time.... 
the 1dx miii annoucnement was october 2019. but i feel like this one will take mor time...


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## MaximPhotoStudio (Feb 13, 2020)

GAME CHANGER!!!


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## felipeolveram (Feb 13, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> Back of the camera from canon official
> 
> 
> 
> キヤノン：EOS R5 特長紹介




can you translate all of the information on the website?


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> 1DxIII, R5 and seven lenses. Canon, you are forcing me to delay retirement.



I can help you with that . You HAVE seen my tagline in here, right? LOL


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## Ethan S (Feb 13, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Bummer it lacks the same AF on bottom as the 1dx.


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

felipeolveram said:


> can you translate all of the information on the website?




The announcement yes (see CR Guy's first post on this thread), but the scrolling animated website = no.

- A


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Feb 13, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> Back of the camera from canon official
> 
> 
> 
> キヤノン：EOS R5 特長紹介


Thanks for the link. That grip looks a little snug with a wide barreled lens.


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## davidhfe (Feb 13, 2020)

noms78 said:


> lack of mechanical mode dial and separate video switch are the only negatives so far



I'd add the lack of the new AF button from the 1DX3 as a minor disappointment, but the reality is its a lot easier to use the touch screen to move the AF points on the smaller R5 (with its big screen) than it would be possible to do on the 1DX3.

(360 video via @canonnews 



)


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## WhereDoWeGoFrmHere (Feb 13, 2020)

Am I the only one that hates Canon's flip out screens?


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Is that card door a tell for anyone? Is it... deeper than the EOS R?  

Does EOS R have that similar text? It's not quite legible what the text is.

- A


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## Ozarker (Feb 13, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> Am I the only one that hates Canon's flip out screens?


Probably not, but I love them.


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## dwarven (Feb 13, 2020)




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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Is that card door a tell for anyone? Is it... deeper than the EOS R?
> 
> Does EOS R have that similar text? It's not quite legible what the text is.
> 
> ...




Well shucks -- the 1080 version video above (thanks davidhfe) just says CARD OPEN.

- A


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## Ozarker (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Is that card door a tell for anyone? Is it... deeper than the EOS R?
> 
> Does EOS R have that similar text? It's not quite legible what the text is.
> 
> ...


Looks the same. The text says, "Card Open".


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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Probably not, but I love them.


I think alot of stills shooters might prefer the normal flip up/down instead of articulating. For me the articulating is a huge draw


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## Heath Walker (Feb 13, 2020)

Great news of course, but does look like Canon is trying to buy time.


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## bellorusso (Feb 13, 2020)

Let's speculate on the price. Canon was never too shy to overprice new products a little. But this phenomenal monster must cost a lot more than any non-existing competitors. 
So, $4500-5000?


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## Ozarker (Feb 13, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> I think alot of stills shooters might prefer the normal flip up/down instead of articulating. For me the articulating is a huge draw


I'm a stills shooter and it is a big draw for me.


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## Woody (Feb 13, 2020)

I am curious what the other 6 upcoming RF lenses are.


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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

bellorusso said:


> Let's speculate on the price. Canon was never too shy to overprice new products a little. But this phenomenal monster must cost a lot more than any non-existing competitors.
> So, $4500-5000?


I really agree with this but people (maybe stills shooters?) keep shooting me down.... 
unless the video specs end up being cripple hammered....


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Woody said:


> I am curious what the other 6 upcoming RF lenses are.




I have never been more sure about anything: it will clearly be six more 24-105 lenses.

- A


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## David - Sydney (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> Probably unpopular opinion:
> 
> I must say, as someone who has used the Sony 200-600 (which maxes out at f6.3 and is internal zoom), the 100-500 doesn't particularly impress me. Unless it's significantly cheaper, but I seriously doubt it will be. I suppose they're trying to keep the lenses smaller, like the RF 70-200.


Could be cheaper... Sony front element is 95mm vs 70mm for the 100-500. If it is sharp @500mm (which it should be or at least sharper than 100-400 + 1.4x @ 500mm), this could be a great addition and should be designed for use with the RF 1.4x = 140-700mm! Perfect for birders on a budget and simply crop to taste! Is there a compelling case for APS-C now... except perhaps for price?


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## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> The Sony is nice, but I'm sure the Canon will have better optics and build. I was just hoping they'd compete directly and make a 200-600mm. Personally I prefer the internal zoom but that's a controversial topic.


The Sony lens is in a league of its own - look at the TDP image quality results. Even if Canon is of the same optical quality, a 500mm f/7.1 with an aperture of 70mm will be significantly outresolved by a 600mm f/6.3 with an aperture of 95mm. However, the Sony is on the too long and heavy side for me and I would prefer the 100-500 as a hiking lens. But, it may in practice be little better than a 100-400mm f/5.6 which has a 71mm aperture. I’ll probably end up with one if the quality at 500mm is spectacular.


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Could be cheaper... Sony front element is 95mm vs 70mm for the 100-500. If it is sharp @500mm (which is should be), this could be a great addition and should be designed for the RF 1.4x 140-700mm!




I see the Sony living in the 'nicer than budget' space -- internal zoom, f/6.3 long end, etc.

Canon has enormous brass ones to paint that f/7.1 lens white and put a red ring on it. I'm 100% down with f/7.1 and the 401mm barrier has been a plague forever, but I thought slower than f/5.6 surely would have been non-L.

- A


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## Gloads (Feb 13, 2020)

Ethan S said:


> Bummer it lacks the same AF on bottom as the 1dx.


Was looking forward to that feature, if they don't announce an RS before this is shipping, and I end up buying one. I wonder if this means anything about the AF system?

Also, no mention of frame rate for 8k...


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Also, no mention of frame rate for 8k...




8,000 things were not mentioned. We'll have to live in suspense.

- A


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## Nelu (Feb 13, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> Am I the only one that hates Canon's flip out screens?


Yes!


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## Aaron D (Feb 13, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> I think alot of stills shooters might prefer the normal flip up/down instead of articulating. For me the articulating is a huge draw


Yeah, I'm in that camp. The R's gets in the way of an L bracket and turns the image upside-down at weird times. That may be a setting buried someplace. I'd actually prefer a side-to-side flip instead of articulating--left and right, for when the camera is on a tripod in a tight corner. Doesn't exist I think.


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## bellorusso (Feb 13, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> I really agree with this but people (maybe stills shooters?) keep shooting me down....
> unless the video specs end up being cripple hammered....


Well, I too think Canon will cripple this 8k in some way and yet we are going to pay a lot for this feature. Nevertheless, this is a very nice and proud moment to be in Canon camp. I almost forgot how does it feel when beloved brand releases something so cool.


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## wanderer23 (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> 8,000 things were not mentioned. We'll have to live in suspense.
> 
> - A


at least not as much suspense as those waiting for a a7siii


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## -pekr- (Feb 13, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I'd add the lack of the new AF button from the 1DX3 as a minor disappointment, but the reality is its a lot easier to use the touch screen to move the AF points on the smaller R5 (with its big screen) than it would be possible to do on the 1DX3.
> 
> (360 video via @canonnews
> 
> ...



If it lacks the 1DX III AF-ON button functionality, it is actually a big let-down. It is typical especially in the smartphone industry - you receive almost ideal smartphone, just to find out one crucial parameter actually sucks. Then you find it at a different model (here comes R6 for e.g.), but then you miss what you liked about a previous one ....


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## davidhfe (Feb 13, 2020)

Heath Walker said:


> Great news of course, but does look like Canon is trying to buy time.



Sure but for what? It could be the R6 is actually ready to go, but they wanted to announce the development of the higher end model to protect sales. R6 announcement + preorder at CP+, R5 preorder a month later, ships 2 months after that.

It's also a pretty controlled release of info. Dev announcement with a few stunning features (speed, ibis, 8K) to get the hype machine going. Could explain CR guy's note about canon being annoyed—they a) wanted to control the info and b) don't want people splitting hairs about 4K modes (which will have limits)—they want people saying SONY IS ******* IF THEY DON'T HAVE 8K.

Alternately, they know the A7SIII is on the way and want to spoil Sony's fun. A "video focused A7S3" that only does 4K or 6K will seem wimpy right out of the gate, even if it has internal raw modes. 8>>>6!


----------



## Woody (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I have never been more sure about anything: it will clearly be six more 24-105 lenses.
> - A



I don't mind a slow 17-35 f/5.6 lens to complement the 24-105. Also, some lightweight 28 f/1.8, 50 f/1.8 and 85 f/1.8 lenses will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Sure but for what? It could be the R6 is actually ready to go, but they wanted to announce the development of the higher end model to protect sales. R6 announcement + preorder at CP+, R5 preorder a month later, ships 2 months after that.




Canon typically puts quarters (as in plural) between FF releases, not months.

They like to announce, blot out the sun with their marketing to build buzz, collect pre-orders, deploy and then start talking about something new.

Unless the R6 and R5 are night and day differently spec'd and priced (I mean like one is 2x the price of the other), folks may wait and see what's up with both cameras before coughing up dollars for either. Canon probably doesn't want that.

- A


----------



## Diltiazem (Feb 13, 2020)

"The EOS R5 will be the first Canon camera equipped with IBIS (In Body Image Stabilization)

So, R5 will come before R6. Either that or R6 won't have IBIS.


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 13, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> If it lacks the 1DX III AF-ON button functionality, it is actually a big let-down. It is typical especially in the smartphone industry - you receive almost ideal smartphone, just to find out one crucial parameter actually sucks. Then you find it at a different model (here comes R6 for e.g.), but then you miss what you liked about a previous one ....



Don't get me wrong; I'm bummed out. But I'm also a nerd about interfaces (like, have a masters in it) so I'm trying to not let this one thing overshadow what is, by all accounts, a tremendous improvement from any existing canon.

Alternately: ZOMG NERF GUN STRIKES AGAIN THEYRE ******* THE 8K IS PROBABLY 4 BIT 2:0:0 MJPEG


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I see the Sony living in the 'nicer than budget' space -- internal zoom, f/6.3 long end, etc.
> 
> Canon has enormous brass ones to paint that f/7.1 lens white and put a red ring on it. I'm 100% down with f/7.1 and the 401mm barrier has been a plague forever, but I thought slower than f/5.6 surely would have been non-L.
> 
> - A



Just think of it as another 100-400 f5.6 with a bit of bonus reach for when conditions permit. A plus not a minus.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Woody said:


> I don't mind a slow 17-35 f/5.6 lens to complement the 24-105. Also, some lightweight 28 f/1.8, 50 f/1.8 and 85 f/1.8 lenses will be greatly appreciated.




My (not joking this time) guess -- in no particular order:

A non-L 50 prime of some sort (nifty fifty, weird pancake, mid-ish-level like the 35 f/1.8 STM 1:2 Macro, etc.)
Some small non-L primes like the 35 f/1.8
A cheaper/slower UWA lens (f/4 or f/5.6 would have been my guess, but some super slow f/9 -14 is probably coming now. 
Another L prime, perhaps the 24, 35 or 135 
A 1:1 macro, surely (90-100 or so)
- A


----------



## Gloads (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Canon typically puts quarters (as in plural) between FF releases, not months.
> 
> They like to announce, blot out the sun with their marketing to build buzz, collect pre-orders, deploy and then start talking about something new.
> 
> ...


So R6 at $2,000, R5 at $4,000?


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Diltiazem said:


> "The EOS R5 will be the first Canon camera equipped with IBIS (In Body Image Stabilization)
> 
> So, R5 will come before R6. Either that or R6 won't have IBIS.




OOH LOGIC SNAP

Well done, full marks

- A


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Canon typically puts quarters (as in plural) between FF releases, not months.



I am remaining optimistic as this camera seems anything but typical. Two weeks ago we were all calling bullcrap on the specs.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> My (not joking this time) guess -- in no particular order:
> 
> A non-L 50 prime of some sort (nifty fifty, weird pancake, mid-ish-level like the 35 f/1.8 STM 1:2 Macro, etc.)
> Some small non-L primes like the 35 f/1.8
> ...


Yeah, at this point I think a gaggle of non-L primes (24, 50, 85) are almost a given for this year, and I hope a 135L


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Gloads said:


> So R6 at $2,000, R5 at $4,000?




Too many unknowns. I'd say 2500 / 3500 but we don't know much at all about the R6 to back up any guess of price at this point.

- A


----------



## Hyperion (Feb 13, 2020)

Now give me 85 1.8 and I’m in!


----------



## Duckstalker (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Just think of it as another 100-400 f5.6 with a bit of bonus reach for when conditions permit. A plus not a minus.



While I like your explanation but we don't really know for sure if it's gonna be f/5.6 at 400mm yet, *finger cross*.


----------



## Jing G (Feb 13, 2020)

damn, I'm so exciting... my RF15-35, RF50 1.2, RF70-200 finally have a good body to play with... Best news of the month!


----------



## Tremotino (Feb 13, 2020)

Mechanical_EYE said:


> View attachment 188645


Beautiful, but it doesn't have the af button of the newly 1dx mkiii, which I can't afford.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Just think of it as another 100-400 f5.6 with a bit of bonus reach for when conditions permit. A plus not a minus.


That’s a nice glass half full attitude. But, it’s a disappointment to those of us who want some real extra reach. f/7.1 is better suited to low resolution sensors and it’s not going to take the full advantage of high resolution ones.


----------



## Gloads (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Too many unknowns. I'd say 2500 / 3500 but we don't know much at all about the R6 to back up any guess of price at this point.
> 
> - A


Agreed, I can't see the R5 being more than a 5DS. At $4,000 you get close to (old) pro body pricing, and while having some pro features, it is not a pro body (at least a BIG battery and vertical controls).


----------



## sanj (Feb 13, 2020)

brad-man said:


> OK. I'll play. My guess is $3899


Soon we will know!


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I have never been more sure about anything: it will clearly be six more 24-105 lenses.
> 
> - A



I'll take a crack at that:

24-105 F/2.8L IS - because why not
24-105 F/4L IS STM for video shooters, features an internal ND
24-105 F/2L - 10lbs, will break the mount of an RP if you don't support it
24-105 F/4L SB - New canon line featuring an internal speedbooster instead of an extender. For use with the 2x crop that the 4K120 mode will have
24-105 F4/L - Same as the current model, but no IS. Additionally disables IBIS if present. White with an EXTRA red ring so people know you're a REAL photographer who doesn't need that fancy IS
and maybe an CN-R 24-105 T/4??

I mean this is the company that currently sells no fewer than 6 70-200 lenses


----------



## -pekr- (Feb 13, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Don't get me wrong; I'm bummed out. But I'm also a nerd about interfaces (like, have a masters in it) so I'm trying to not let this one thing overshadow what is, by all accounts, a tremendous improvement from any existing canon.
> 
> Alternately: ZOMG NERF GUN STRIKES AGAIN THEYRE ******* THE 8K IS PROBABLY 4 BIT 2:0:0 MJPEG



I am hard to please, irrational, and would be willing to pay 500 more, even if I never experienced AF-ON myself.

An analogy - nowadays, I am similarly upset with the strobes. Wanted some TTL one, so was looking at new Elinchrom ELB500 (as we've got ELB400, which recently broke). They have innovated by removing strap holders and hardwiring cables to the flash head, to make "life easier". I am refusing to buy it for jus this stupidity. Thought Profoto B10 might save my day - so much money they ask for, to just find out, that their air remote can't display the strobe power, nor does it offer focusing beam light.

I simply always find some parameter, which ruins it for me, while not necessarily important to others. As for the R5, I don't care about the video upon basic 4K to crop down to FHD, FHD 120 would be nice for slow-mo, but I definitely care about the advancements in focusing for stills and would hate, if it comes later with some cheapo model, while living for another 4-5 years without it on the R5 ...


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I'd add the lack of the new AF button from the 1DX3 as a minor disappointment, but the reality is its a lot easier to use the touch screen to move the AF points on the smaller R5 (with its big screen) than it would be possible to do on the 1DX3.
> 
> (360 video via @canonnews
> 
> ...



here's a better shot of the back


----------



## Heath Walker (Feb 13, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Sure but for what? It could be the R6 is actually ready to go, but they wanted to announce the development of the higher end model to protect sales. R6 announcement + preorder at CP+, R5 preorder a month later, ships 2 months after that.
> 
> It's also a pretty controlled release of info. Dev announcement with a few stunning features (speed, ibis, 8K) to get the hype machine going. Could explain CR guy's note about canon being annoyed—they a) wanted to control the info and b) don't want people splitting hairs about 4K modes (which will have limits)—they want people saying SONY IS ******* IF THEY DON'T HAVE 8K.
> 
> Alternately, they know the A7SIII is on the way and want to spoil Sony's fun. A "video focused A7S3" that only does 4K or 6K will seem wimpy right out of the gate, even if it has internal raw modes. 8>>>6!


Well, definitely spoiling any upcoming Sony or Nikons is a great strategy. It's just that Canon is making us wait a long time. And Sony/Nikon can play the same game and put out 6 month leading press releases to spoil Canon's party. Don't get me wrong, it's great to see Canon pushing innovation.... really exciting! I'm curious about the improvements in the sensor.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> The Sony is nice, but I'm sure the Canon will have better optics and build. I was just hoping they'd compete directly and make a 200-600mm. Personally I prefer the internal zoom but that's a controversial topic.



I think this 100-500 is direct replacement for 100-400 and a 200-600 type lens will come later.
Just because Nikon will also have a 200-600 and that's not a high end S lens. 
Although Canon never had a response for the 200-500 either.

If not, then i think the Sony 200-600 is better for me. Longer reach, brighter, internal zoom and probably cheaper.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 13, 2020)

So where is the video that supposedly showed IBIS in operation?

Jack


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

AlanF said:


> That’s a nice glass half full attitude. But, it’s a disappointment to those of us who want some real extra reach. f/7.1 is better suited to low resolution sensors and it’s not going to take the full advantage of high resolution ones.



Kindly put. This will be a 1.5kg ~$2500 lens. Even bumping the objective diameter by 25% and scaling the rest to get f5.6 at 500 makes this a very different lens that could be 2x the weight and 2-3x the price, approaching the 200-400 f4. But I might not be considering what you would propose for that “extra reach”.


----------



## snappy604 (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> here's a better shot of the back




still no comments on the 'rate' button? ;-)


----------



## sanj (Feb 13, 2020)

Power switch on left??!! Bummer. I like it on the right. :-( That way I can power the camera on as I pick it up.


----------



## Gloads (Feb 13, 2020)

What do we know now:

- This is the next gen Canon MILC
- New sensor and processor
- 12/20FPS
- 8k something
- April release?
- It does NOT have the smart controller (which I thought had been rumored)

As we don't know the resolution, and we assume 45MP due to 8k, could it be that this is the 75MP sensor in a crop mode for 8k?

Doubt it, but I hope so. I will hate to wait for the RS while you all are out shooting with the R5


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

snappy604 said:


> still no comments on the 'rate' button? ;-)


the mic would signify that it gets audio notations as well. nice. this is a quasi sports camera. rate button as well is necessary for pro shooting.


----------



## VICYASA (Feb 13, 2020)

Price???


----------



## vjlex (Feb 13, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> Am I the only one that hates Canon's flip out screens?


Probably.


----------



## Silvertt7 (Feb 13, 2020)

why are you guys saying tony northrup is going to eat it? lol? i'm not a fan or a hater of him.... but common, they barely said anything about the body? and no info on price? and this is Canon after all... i am automatically assuming this is 8k video that has been gimped by Canon's cripple hammer until they give full details proving otherwise.


----------



## vjlex (Feb 13, 2020)

Heath Walker said:


> Great news of course, but does look like Canon is trying to buy time.


I think they're trying to shore up their base and give us time to save for it. They want this to be the AE-1 or whichever camera changed the game and got a whole lot of photographers to switch to Canon.


----------



## drama (Feb 13, 2020)

Northrup flat out said 8K was bullshit. His next videos gonna be a zinger.

To everyone complaining "we already knew that, where are the details", or "Canon are buying time" - Canon likely had this dev announcement booked in six months ago. They aren't prioritising your needs after you spoiled yourselves. They likely wanted this out early before Sony announce something for Photokina (which I when I expect we will see the R5 in the wild for the first time). Also, I cannot believe there are people already saying they feel let down by parts of it.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

So much good news but not a word about the dynamic range of the R5. Will it handle a decent nightscape with the moon in it?..


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 13, 2020)

Silvertt7 said:


> why are you guys saying tony northrup is going to eat it? lol? i'm not a fan or a hater of him.... but common, they barely said anything about the body? and no info on price? and this is Canon after all... i am automatically assuming this is 8k video that has been gimped by Canon's cripple hammer until they give full details proving otherwise.



He was, if I remember, (and I ain't gonna go re-watch it) pretty confident that the 8k would be a time-lapse "which we've already seen in the Nikon". With an official announcement out the gate, anything other than "real" 8K30 would be universally skewered.


----------



## David - Sydney (Feb 13, 2020)

Gloads said:


> What do we know now:
> 
> - This is the next gen Canon MILC
> - New sensor and processor
> ...


April release is for the cloud feature I think... much as I wish for April to be the available date


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

Good one. I wonder how well the flip screen will work with an L-bracket.



canonnews said:


> here's a better shot of the back
> 
> View attachment 188651


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So much good news but not a word about the dynamic range of the R5. Will it handle a decent nightscape with the moon in it?..


that's impossible IMO. the moon properly exposed is nearly same as daylight exposure.


----------



## mb66energy (Feb 13, 2020)

I am glad that I have skipped the 5D iv and the R while trying out 5D classic and now using the RP (I have payed slightly above 1000 EUR for Body+Adapter+RF35 during a very cool offer).
Now I can try to make me fit (photographically) for a camera which seems to have very good video features and reasonable high resolution plus the speed if you need it. And with a flippy screen which is a must for me.
And great to see IBIS which might help a little bit with the 5.6 400 and 2.8 100 macro + a lot with RF 35 and hopefully some RF +/-17 4.0 IS Macro which I hope to see soon (I have no info about it but it would fit perfectly for a small setup with 17 / 35 / 70...200mm or 17 / 35 / 100 all macro).


----------



## Jethro (Feb 13, 2020)

DP is saying 'Likely 40MP'.

Are they likely to have insider knowledge??


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> Am I the only one that hates Canon's flip out screens?



I rejected Canon RP my first time trying to switch from Nikon in part because the flip up Nikon screen is so much easier for going low and fast (toddler shots). But my second time I got used to the flipper. And found that in vertical shooting it works like a flipper.


----------



## vjlex (Feb 13, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I am remaining optimistic as this camera seems anything but typical. Two weeks ago we were all calling bullcrap on the specs.


I think people doubting the specs were in the minority. At least here. A CR3 is generally a pretty safe bet.


----------



## JPAZ (Feb 13, 2020)

So.....

Not a big fan of being an early adopter, especially because price goes down a year or so later and,
We have details but still waiting on specifics about a few things and,
I see a "mode" dial atop and a fxn dial near the shutter and the dial on the back (looks like areal dial and not a toggle like on the RP) but we really don't know yet and,
No information about weatherproofing or what type of cards will go into the slots and,
No info on the battery or battery life and,
No pricing yet....

BUT..........

ME WANT ONE!

Guess it is time to start selling a few things to get ready.


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 13, 2020)

shunsai said:


> I think people doubting the specs were in the minority. At least here. A CR3 is generally a pretty safe bet.



Back before it got CR3'd, I definitely felt we were nearing "5D4 video firmware update" territory.

I'm very, *very* happy to be wrong.


----------



## Famateur (Feb 13, 2020)

I'm really excited. This will likely be my next camera body.

Aside from the fundamentals of resolution, frame rate and (for me fundamental) articulating screen, I'm looking forward to:


Seeing what this all-new sensor can do. Guaranteed, it blows my current camera's sensor away. Everything else will just be gravy.
In-body stabilization. It's honestly never been something that I've lusted after, but I'm keen to try it out.
The dedicated Rate button. Sometimes, it's the little things...
Gonna need some time to save up. It was nice of Canon to give me a few months head start...


----------



## -pekr- (Feb 13, 2020)

So what's there in the store for the 5DIV wedding pros, especially if you need/want to invest in strobes too? My wife is quite conservative and 5DIV suits her well. But I am an "investor" and a gadget lover. So - in order for us to buy new camera, we want/need the following:

- DR better at least 1/3 - 2/3 of a stop
- IBIS, so there is some advantage to our 24-70/2.8 II. The lens needs to be shared with the 5DIV as a backup
- 4K/30, FHD/60-120 for slow-mo, to start with the occassional video short clips
- Better AF, decent face detection, fast AF point selection
- Two cards slot
- Decent ergonomy, nice design
- Price 3500-3800 USD

Well, honestly, I expect all boxes being ticked for us, but hate the lack of the AF-ON. My wife finds the joystick being good enough, I find it still being slow. If some modern alghoritm allows me to switch between the faces and then it tracks the face automatically, then joystick is enough. But I don't want to chase a focus point around manually ...


----------



## Pape (Feb 13, 2020)

AlanF said:


> That’s a nice glass half full attitude. But, it’s a disappointment to those of us who want some real extra reach. f/7.1 is better suited to low resolution sensors and it’s not going to take the full advantage of high resolution ones.


ITs direction canon wants steer birdlers,no 7d and smaller aperture on consumer lens. will be nice with 20-26mpix sensor and with 1.4x converter.
Maybe their high resolution model is so high megapixel that it just gives slow fps and they leave action autofocus off becouse they think nobody using it to action?


----------



## Maximilian (Feb 13, 2020)

Somehow I am still hoping for less than 40 MP. But looking at the competition...


----------



## Maximilian (Feb 13, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> ...
> - Price 3500-3800 USD
> 
> Well, honestly, I expect all boxes being ticked for us...


Somehow I have a feeling in my guts that we'll see the MRSP getting into 4k $ direction and far north 4k € (incl. VAT) in Germany.
Although this would make me


----------



## deleteme (Feb 13, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So much good news but not a word about the dynamic range of the R5. Will it handle a decent nightscape with the moon in it?..


Every manufacturer now knows to claim "excellent DR". However there are only the most meaningless numbers ever issued such as "14 stops of DR" delivered in a completely context free environment.
So yeah, I expect they will say it is great. What we need to do is actually get one and shoot with it.
I trust precisely no one other than myself to see if it delivers what I need for my work.
I have tested Sony, Canon and Nikon and the Canon might not keep up with the others at the extremes but then I don't deliver files to clients that I have to beat to death to work. No pro does. 
If one is a hobbyist and has to yank a file 5 stops to get their cat to be visible. fine but then they could just take a photo that was actually lit and exposed correctly.


----------



## Laslen (Feb 13, 2020)

Why are people saying it doesn't have AF-ON?


----------



## Maximilian (Feb 13, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> ... the lack of the AF-ON. ...


AF-ON button is there, close to the joy stick. Or did I miss something in your post?


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

Jethro said:


> DP is saying 'Likely 40MP'.
> 
> Are they likely to have insider knowledge??



IMO. they are downplaying this as much as possible. Even putting 8K in quotes in the title, like it may not actually be real 8K.

if this was a Sony announcement they'd be all over it.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

Maximilian said:


> AF-ON button is there. Or did I miss something in your post?



The turbo charged AF-ON that is on the 1DX Mark III.


----------



## deleteme (Feb 13, 2020)

Jethro said:


> DP is saying 'Likely 40MP'.
> 
> Are they likely to have insider knowledge??


In theory 40MP because of alleged 8K video.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

bellorusso said:


> Well, I too think Canon will cripple this 8k in some way and yet we are going to pay a lot for this feature. Nevertheless, this is a very nice and proud moment to be in Canon camp. I almost forgot how does it feel when beloved brand releases something so cool.


no ILC outside of 20K+++ systems has 8K video of any sort.. and it's "crippling"?

yes, it probably doesn't have DPAF btw.

I wouldn't call it crippled though.


----------



## deleteme (Feb 13, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Good one. I wonder how well the flip screen will work with an L-bracket.


I got the ProMedia gear bracket for my R and it is perfect. The RRS and Kirk brackets do not allow proper use of the flip out screen. The PMG does allow almost full range with just a bit of limit. Miles better than the competition.


----------



## Laslen (Feb 13, 2020)

Canon needs something like real time subject tracking to make this a real Sony killer, not just eye tracking.


----------



## deleteme (Feb 13, 2020)

So far the improved ergonomics, dual cards, IBIS and high frame rate mean it is a winner already.
As for the sensor, it beggars belief that it would not have some significant improvements in performance. 

OTOH, I haven't had any clients look at my images and say "Hmmmm, you aren't using a Sony are you." or "Your DR seems 1/2 stop short of Nikon".


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> _Sony may announce something soon, but who cares?_



Sony.... is who?


----------



## Traveler (Feb 13, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> I think alot of stills shooters might prefer the normal flip up/down instead of articulating. For me the articulating is a huge draw


I love it as a still shooter. Some of my favorite photos wouldn’t happen without it. 
1) portrait orientation photos from low or above the head shots
2) when it needs to be very close to a wall or anything that doesn’t allow me to see the back of the canera
3) shooting up from a low position
Etc
And it protects the screen when closed


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> that's impossible IMO. the moon properly exposed is nearly same as daylight exposure.



I know  I was referring to this glorious moon thread.


----------



## Viggo (Feb 13, 2020)

Using a 100-500 with 2x extender seems like mirrorless territority in f-stops. But the camera will be highly anticipated from me.


----------



## wockawocka (Feb 13, 2020)

cosmopotter said:


> Looks like a traditional joystick beside the AF ON button Not the new selector from the 1D3



TBH, this is fine. I wanted something more tactile and responsive back rather than the 'my fingers are greasy so I'm not going to work' sensor on the 1DXiii

This is better, not worse imho.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> I got the ProMedia gear bracket for my R and it is perfect. The RRS and Kirk brackets do not allow proper use of the flip out screen. The PMG does allow almost full range with just a bit of limit. Miles better than the competition.



That helps! Will look into ProMedia later on, if I buy this camera. Thanks!


----------



## Joules (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I have never been more sure about anything: it will clearly be six more 24-105 lenses.
> 
> - A


I was thinking of 50mm variants with all the apertures you don't want


----------



## proutprout (Feb 13, 2020)

Finally something interesting ! Now i have one question : will this be the top of the line ? Or should we expect a 1d equivalent ? Interesting to see what camera that would be then !


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 13, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Also, no mention of frame rate for 8k...



Well, you can be pretty sure that it's at least 24p and likely 30p. The odds of it being any higher at 8k are slim to none. But...FREAKING 8K!!!


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 13, 2020)

bellorusso said:


> Well, I too think Canon will cripple this 8k in some way and yet we are going to pay a lot for this feature. Nevertheless, this is a very nice and proud moment to be in Canon camp. I almost forgot how does it feel when beloved brand releases something so cool.



I think Canon has looked at the collapsing ILC market and their own sales/revenue and realized that they can't afford to cripple any more.


----------



## -pekr- (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> The turbo charged AF-ON that is on the 1DX Mark III.



Exactly - look at some 1DX III videos. New AF-ON with the sensor looks to be much faster in moving the focus points, than the manual joystick is. Wonder why Canon did it to us, to not include it, as the R5 is going to be a top line R body, and it came even sooner with the 1DX III. Seems to be another marketing trickery aka crippling on the Canon's side.


----------



## Joules (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> yes, it probably doesn't have DPAF btw.
> 
> I wouldn't call it crippled though.


Imagine if it had AF in 8K or 20 FPS mode. Literally everybody will be *******. Especially Canon, for crippling the throughput on the 1DX III.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 13, 2020)

AlanF said:


> That’s a nice glass half full attitude. But, it’s a disappointment to those of us who want some real extra reach. f/7.1 is better suited to low resolution sensors and it’s not going to take the full advantage of high resolution ones.



f/7.1 is just below the diffraction limit on 45/50mp sensors.

Wait...are we calling 45/50mp sensors "low resolution" now, in anticipation of the "high resolution" unannounced 83mp monster?


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 13, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So much good news but not a word about the dynamic range of the R5. Will it handle a decent nightscape with the moon in it?..



This is clearly bait designed to get us all to post moon photos again


----------



## Joules (Feb 13, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Seems to be another marketing trickery aka crippling on the Canon's side.


Seems more like they took the feedback from people seriously. If you want an innovative way of. Moving your AF, dragging with the touchscreen should still be an option here. If you're a 5D guy and want similar ergonomics, you'll now also get the controls you're used too, so you get the best of both worlds.


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 13, 2020)

arbitrage said:


> Wow....Thom Hogan was spot on with his article earlier today: http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2020-mirrorless-camera/lenses-let-through-less.html
> 
> This trend to slower and slower apertures is disturbing. I've managed to sort of adapt to my Sony 200-600 at f/6.3 but now "only" 500mm and another 1/3 stop loss of light? Enough already



is the RF 100-500 f4.5-7.1 filling the slot of the EF 100-400 for the RF lens lineup?, if the new RF is [email protected] 400mm, it is areplacement for the 100-400 with an extra 100mm of f reach. Hopefully,Canon would only make this move if they can match or exceed the IQ of the 100-400.


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Agreed. But not surprising considering this cameras given name


It looks like there is a button or sensor on the front of the grip. Any thoughts?


----------



## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> My (not joking this time) guess -- in no particular order:
> 
> A non-L 50 prime of some sort (nifty fifty, weird pancake, mid-ish-level like the 35 f/1.8 STM 1:2 Macro, etc.)
> Some small non-L primes like the 35 f/1.8
> ...



35 1.2. Come on, baby!


----------



## dog8food (Feb 13, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> It looks like there is a button or sensor on the front of the grip. Any thoughts?


I believe it activates the 3rd card slot.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Exactly - look at some 1DX III videos. New AF-ON with the sensor looks to be much faster in moving the focus points, than the manual joystick is. Wonder why Canon did it to us, to not include it, as the R5 is going to be a top line R body, and it came even sooner with the 1DX III. Seems to be another marketing trickery aka crippling on the Canon's side.



sigh. #$()*&#$ I hate that ___ word

No it's not the top camera ..is the 5D the top camera on the EF line?

The 1 series RF camera is coming in 2021. do you really truly think they'd shove absolutely everything into the R5 when the R1 is coming out next year? what would be the point of the R1 (likely name now for it)?

you want 1 series ergos.. then wait for the 1 series camera.


----------



## dog8food (Feb 13, 2020)

I'm really happy it's confirmed. I really think this is the camera I'll own for years to come.

Now I hope for a pancake, or small, 24/28mm 1.8/2. With the IBIS, a lens like this would mostly live on my camera.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 13, 2020)

OK. here is a question. If you didn't know the name for this camera and someone gave you the specs(as we know them) and told you it was the flagship(1dx) equivalent. Would you be impressed or disappointed? And as such. What do you think this will mean for a future R1?I mean crap!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could they possibly improve enough over this to release an actual R1.


----------



## Daner (Feb 13, 2020)

cosmopotter said:


> Looks like a traditional joystick beside the AF ON button Not the new selector from the 1D3



I made the mistake of demoing the 1D3, and now I won't be satisfied without the smart AF ON button.

Heed my warning, don't do it!


----------



## Traveler (Feb 13, 2020)

sanj said:


> Power switch on left??!! Bummer. I like it on the right. :-( That way I can power the camera on as I pick it up.


Why do you even turn it off? I keep turned it on even when it’s resting on a shelf and it doesn’t eat anything from the battery


----------



## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> here's a better shot of the back
> 
> View attachment 188651



In the parlance of the youth, this looks like a chunky boi


----------



## AEWest (Feb 13, 2020)

Diltiazem said:


> "The EOS R5 will be the first Canon camera equipped with IBIS (In Body Image Stabilization)
> 
> So, R5 will come before R6. Either that or R6 won't have IBIS.


Canon rumors guy was certain that R6 did have IBIS.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> OK. here is a question. If you didn't know the name for this camera and someone gave you the specs(as we know them) and told you it was the flagship(1dx) equivalent. Would you be impressed or disappointed? And as such. What do you think this will mean for a future R1?I mean crap!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could they possibly improve enough over this to release an actual R1.



Purely my speculation:

1. it will have 1 series designed ergonomics and look, feel, smell, and taste like a 1 series camera. Pros used of 1 series EF cameras will be right at home with the R1.
2. lower MPix. Probably around the 20mp, but faster fps than even the 20 - maybe with even a faster readout speed so that mechanical shutter isn't necessary (think A9). No 8K video. 4K RAW, 5.5K RAW,etc like the 1DX Mark III. 30fps sounds about right, but only with RF lenses, speed will drop down with EF lenses.
3. probably better AF than the R5.
4. better weather sealing
5. better build quality
6. larger EVF, better magnification
7. better battery life

they'll roll this out in 2021 with the release of the 300,400,500 and 600mm RF super telephotos and Sony will cease to be relevant.


----------



## Danglin52 (Feb 13, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> I think alot of stills shooters might prefer the normal flip up/down instead of articulating. For me the articulating is a huge draw



I don’t like flip screens, but if you are going to have one I prefer fully articulating. You can flip the screen in to protect the screen during transport.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 13, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So much good news but not a word about the dynamic range of the R5. Will it handle a decent nightscape with the moon in it?..



If it doesn't canon are definitely DOOOOOOMED!!!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> - DR better at least 1/3 - 2/3 of a stop





Aussie shooter said:


> OK. here is a question. If you didn't know the name for this camera and someone gave you the specs(as we know them) and told you it was the flagship(1dx) equivalent. Would you be impressed or disappointed? And as such. What do you think this will mean for a future R1?I mean crap!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could they possibly improve enough over this to release an actual R1.



Actually, right now in the R line, the R itself is the flagship. When R5 has been released, it'll be the new flagship. With R1 - I don't know what they can put in it. Even higher fps? low-lag EVF? super accurate autofocus?


----------



## mppix (Feb 13, 2020)

Joules said:


> Imagine if it had AF in 8K or 20 FPS mode. Literally everybody will be *******. Especially Canon, for crippling the throughput on the 1DX III.


1dxiii does not have the resolution to shoot 8k


----------



## Daner (Feb 13, 2020)

Hyperion said:


> Now give me 85 1.8 and I’m in!



My EF 85 1.8 has been letting me down on my EOS R, but I'm not in the financial position to replace it with the RF 85 1.2, so bring on a sharper RF version (preferably with IS).


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

Daner said:


> My EF 85 1.8 has been letting me down on my EOS R, but I'm not in the financial position to replace it with the RF 85 1.2, so bring on a sharper RF version (preferably with IS).


how's it been letting you down? (off topic) for that lens you really need to use DPP's DLO function against it.. especially to combat the PF that it exhibits.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> (...) and Sony will cease to be relevant.



I bet that a lot of the folks who kept their EF lenses and went 
the MC-11 route are coming back in hordes.

After all, Sony never got the user interface and ergonomics 
right, and returning is just one body away for those folks.

By the end of the year Canon will have crossed the 50% market 
share again. This beast easily rivals the Nikon D6 - at likely a 
much smaller price tag!


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Feb 13, 2020)

I can't believe they wasted that space in the top left part of the body once again.  They could have placed another dial there or a trio of buttons, that unnecessarily huge power on/off dial could have been placed below a more usable dial.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Kindly put. This will be a 1.5kg ~$2500 lens. Even bumping the objective diameter by 25% and scaling the rest to get f5.6 at 500 makes this a very different lens that could be 2x the weight and 2-3x the price, approaching the 200-400 f4. But I might not be considering what you would propose for that “extra reach”.


Look at the data. The Nikon 200-500/5.6 and Sony 200-600/6.3 are ~2.1-2.4kg and $1000-1800, which are cheaper than and far less than 2x wt of current 100-400mm II, which weighs ~1.7kg with hood and foot and costs ~$1900 here. (I am equating £ and $ to remove VAT from UK prices).


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Purely my speculation:
> 
> 1. it will have 1 series designed ergonomics and look, feel, smell, and taste like a 1 series camera. Pros used of 1 series EF cameras will be right at home with the R1.
> 2. lower MPix. Probably around the 20mp, but faster fps than even the 20 - maybe with even a faster readout speed so that mechanical shutter isn't necessary (think A9). No 8K video. 4K RAW, 5.5K RAW,etc like the 1DX Mark III. 30fps sounds about right, but only with RF lenses, speed will drop down with EF lenses.
> ...



I can definitely see a 'pro' style body as far as ergonomics go and built tougher. Although I imagine that as this is canon the R5 will have exceptional ergonomics anyway and be built pretty damn tough. Not sure they would emit 8k in the flagship now that they have it available. AF? Yep. Although I assume the AF of the R5 will be amazing anyway as it has to cope with 20fps in electronic shutter mode(again I am assuming it will AF in this mode). Battery life. Yep. Resolution? Maybe, but the resolution issue is not an improvement or otherwise. This thing seems awfully close to being a flagship. It certainly gives the A9 a run for its money ad if this matches the A9 imagine how sad Sony's flagship will look next to canon.


----------



## Flighest (Feb 13, 2020)

Does anybody know how long it took on average until canon released the announced camera.
-S


----------



## mppix (Feb 13, 2020)

hoping for 2x CFexpress
SD cards are going to slow this thing down.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> I can definitely see a 'pro' style body as far as ergonomics go and built tougher. Although I imagine that as this is canon the R5 will have exceptional ergonomics anyway and be built pretty damn tough. Not sure they would emit 8k in the flagship now that they have it available. AF. Yep. Although I assume the AF of the R5 will be amazing anyway as it has to cope with 20fps in electronic shutter mode(again I am assuming it will AF in this mode). Battery life. Yep. Resolution? Maybe, but the resolution issue is not an improvement or otherwise. This thing seems awfully close to being a flagship. It certainly gives the A9 a run for its money ad if this matches the A9 imagine how sad Sony's flagship will look next to canon.



yes, but let's not forget, that the 1 series ergonomics basically haven't changed much since the EOS-1 from film days.

because this camera has prosumer ergonomics, it's basically SCREAMING that a 1 series body is coming.


----------



## tomri (Feb 13, 2020)

8k is clearly far beyond what I need and I guess the price will be accordingly. Now let's hope for the R6. I am afraid they will put the R6 even below the RP, which would mean no dual slots and perhaps not even IBIS. That would be typical; forcing people into a dilemma again; to perhaps buy the old R, which means one will want to buy again soon after...


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Feb 13, 2020)

All those doubting the rumors are now busy downplaying the specs, saying it would have this or that limitation. DPR & YT Sony fangheys on meltdown, you love to see it.


----------



## Daner (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> how's it been letting you down? (off topic) for that lens you really need to use DPP's DLO function against it.. especially to combat the PF that it exhibits.


Thanks for the tip!


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

Daner said:


> Thanks for the tip!


yeah definately try it.. I had a 85mm F1.8 and I shot deliberately at rippled water at F1.8 in bright sunlight (worst case) and DPP/DLO removed all the PF. I pretty much wet my pants at that


----------



## Mikehit (Feb 13, 2020)

cosmopotter said:


> Looks like a traditional joystick beside the AF ON button Not the new selector from the 1D3



But is it? The joystick on other cameras is very squares-off with a ridge round which I presume stops your finger sliding around and so helps fine adjustment. This is a very rounded button which I don't think will be as easy to use.
I suspect the joystick will be on-screen.


----------



## puffo25 (Feb 13, 2020)

The press article is indeed very vague. Does not mention expected released date to the mass market, sensor size, max ISO, details like kind of wifi connectivity, if fully water sealed and price tag.
Very disappointed!


----------



## Viggo (Feb 13, 2020)

So cameras will be so expensive most people would have to downgrade one model compare to dslr’s... personally I can’t justify a 1d OR this R5 (if it’s $4000), leaving me with the lowest end FF camera. Understand this tech costs, it just sucks to see the value for money ...


----------



## Mikehit (Feb 13, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Look at the data. The Nikon 200-500/5.6 and Sony 200-600/6.3 are ~2.1-2.4kg and $1000-1800, which are cheaper than and far less than 2x wt of current 100-400mm II, which weighs ~1.7kg with hood and foot and costs ~$1900 here. (I am equating £ and $ to remove VAT from UK prices).



I think a key thing will be how the Canon lens progresses in aperture. Apparently the Sony is f6.3 at everything after 300mm, so if Canon can maintain f5.6 at 400mm, then it could be a clear winner if aperture is the main gripe.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> yeah definately try it.. I had a 85mm F1.8 and I shot deliberately at rippled water at F1.8 in bright sunlight (worst case) and DPP/DLO removed all the PF. I pretty much wet my pants at that



Does DLO actually help with the JPGS the camera produces? Have never gotten a clear answer on this.


----------



## AussieSimon (Feb 13, 2020)

drama said:


> Northrup flat out said 8K was bullshit.



And maybe his prediction will prove to be wrong. I don't personally care one way or the other. But to be fair I haven't yet seen anything which confirms that the 8K isn't bullshit. For all we know, Canon's idea of 8K might be a few seconds of 15 FPS of motion JPEG that fills the stills buffer and stops.



Silvertt7 said:


> why are you guys saying tony northrup is going to eat it? lol? i'm not a fan or a hater of him.... but common, they barely said anything about the body? and no info on price? and this is Canon after all... i am automatically assuming this is 8k video that has been gimped by Canon's cripple hammer until they give full details proving otherwise.



Heck, let's put 8K aside for the moment; I wouldn't even dare assume that 4K video hasn't been crippled. Five bucks says the 4K will be heavily cropped or line skipped, making it inferior to a GH5 with a speed booster.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Feb 13, 2020)

Can anyone with more technical knowledge than me, please answer this question..

What will give me a better background when shooting small birds?

Crop sensor at 400mm f5.6

or

Full frame at 500mm f7.1

(presuming they are framed the same in the view finder)

Cheers


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Flighest said:


> Does anybody know how long it took on average until canon released the announced camera.
> -S


Nope, cause development anoucements are usually not what Canon does with exception of 1-series cameras.


----------



## Mikehit (Feb 13, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Can anyone with more technical knowledge than me, please answer this question..
> 
> What will give me a better background when shooting small birds?
> 
> ...



What do you mean by 'better background'? The DOF will be pretty much the same but the nature of the bokeh depends mainly on the lens design


----------



## freejay (Feb 13, 2020)

The first batch will be sold out in 1.5 seconds...


----------



## drama (Feb 13, 2020)

puffo25 said:


> The press article is indeed very vague. Does not mention expected released date to the mass market, sensor size, max ISO, details like kind of wifi connectivity, if fully water sealed and price tag.
> Very disappointed!



It's almost as if it's a development announcement, and not a full product launch. I'm impressed that you can be very disappointed with so little information.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Can't wait to pay a couple hundred bucks extra for 8K video that I'll never ever use. 
It certainly looks dashing, but the only thing distinguishing this camera noticeably from its Sony/Nikon/Panasonic competition is 8K and they're gonna make everyone pay for it. Not a fan at all.
So here's to hoping the R6 comes with all of the same features except a lower res sensor that doesn't allow for pricey 8K shenanigans.


----------



## AussieSimon (Feb 13, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Can anyone with more technical knowledge than me, please answer this question..
> What will give me a better background when shooting small birds?




A plane ticket to Colombia


----------



## Joules (Feb 13, 2020)

mppix said:


> 1dxiii does not have the resolution to shoot 8k


Yes. And it doesn't have the power to do AF in 5.5K 60p either. Why should the R5, a cheaper and smaller body (less volume to dissipate heat) have more power, to handle AF in 8K 30p? 8K 30p is already a tiny bit more throughput than 5.5K 60p, but as you said, that is not withholding abilities from the 1D, but just its resolution.


----------



## Joules (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Can't wait to pay a couple hundred bucks extra for 8K video that I'll never ever use.


What aspect of 8K do you believe to add such an amount to the cost? It's just RAW data, most likely, that goes straight to the card. I fail to see where that adds a significant expense, after all Magic Lantern managed to to the same thing in Software years ago.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> yes, but let's not forget, that the 1 series ergonomics basically haven't changed much since the EOS-1 from film days.
> 
> because this camera has prosumer ergonomics, it's basically SCREAMING that a 1 series body is coming.


Agreed. I think one is coming as well. I am just astonished at what this camera suggests for the R1


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Does DLO actually help with the JPGS the camera produces? Have never gotten a clear answer on this.


depends on your camera. Some cameras have DLO built into the JPEG processing so you can turn that on, and it should help your JPEG's. Otherwise, no, it needs the RAW data if you are doing it in post processing on your computer. The RF mount cameras do this much better. as the DLO data packet is stored in the lens itself and downloaded in the camera automagically. with other DSLR's .. i think you may have to load the lens profile manually into the camera.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

freejay said:


> The first batch will be sold out in 1.5 seconds...



Unlikely. Canon has a track record of mass pre-producing cameras.
They built 2.400.000 copies of the 5D MkIV before they started shipping.

Canon will for sure build close to seven digit copies of the R5 
before shipping, and I am pretty sure it will ship in June.

CP+ will see samples under glass, Photokina will see working
copies.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> What do you mean by 'better background'? The DOF will be pretty much the same but the nature of the bokeh depends mainly on the lens design



more subject isolation. So I guess DOF, yes.


----------



## Del Paso (Feb 13, 2020)

Where has all that EOS R whining gone???


----------



## padam (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> It certainly looks dashing, but the only thing distinguishing this camera noticeably from its Sony/Nikon/Panasonic competition is 8K and they're gonna make everyone pay for it. Not a fan at all.


That's a very wrong assumption.
None of the aforementioned cameras have full compatibility with the EF system, including the Dual-Pixel AF and Dual IS, which most setups do not have (Except in the m43 system, which is not FF and not as good in terms of AF).
There are other things such as colour science, or an ergonomic design without the bulk of a Panasonic S1.
It is simply a missing piece of an unfinished puzzle.
Yes, there are other cameras with great specs, but they aren't working as well as an integrated system. Nobody else will be able to match that because that's not how they've designed them in the first place.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Feb 13, 2020)

AussieSimon said:


> A plane ticket to Colombia


But I was gonna shoot from my back garden in the UK. What, you think a subject distance of 6500 miles is too much?


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> (...) and they're gonna make everyone pay for it.



They will for sure attack the Sony A9 II also pricewise.
Which translates to a price point not over $4000,
maybe even lower.

Remember: This is a war machine, designated to 
win a 50%+ market share back.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Can't wait to pay a couple hundred bucks extra for 8K video that I'll never ever use.
> It certainly looks dashing, but the only thing distinguishing this camera noticeably from its Sony/Nikon/Panasonic competition is 8K and they're gonna make everyone pay for it. Not a fan at all.
> So here's to hoping the R6 comes with all of the same features except a lower res sensor that doesn't allow for pricey 8K shenanigans.


actually to achive 20 fps at 40MPix requires most of the same technology as it would to produce 8K at 30fps. especially if it's simply raw data.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Joules said:


> What aspect of 8K do you believe to add such an amount to the cost? It's just RAW data, most likely, that goes straight to the card. I fail to see where that adds a significant expense, after all Magic Lantern managed to to the same thing in Software years ago.


The image/video processing pipeline requires additional software engineering for 8K (maybe even additional hardware but I'm not sure about it) and since no other mirrorless does 8K they're gonna charge extra just because they can. Understandable and possibly even smart from a marketing/company standpoint but for me personally as a stills photographer it's a ton of extra cost for no extra use at all.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> They will for sure attack the Sony A9 II also pricewise.
> Which translates to a price point not over $4000,
> maybe even lower.
> 
> ...


The A9 II is 24 megapixels, think again.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> actually to achive 20 fps at 40MPix requires most of the same technology as it would to produce 8K at 30fps. especially if it's simply raw data.


It's less about what it actually costs Canon to make it and more about what they can charge extra. No other camera in the segment does 8K, Canon is not exactly a niche company and the R-glass is like no other so they can affort to charge a substantial premium for 8K.


----------



## TracerHD (Feb 13, 2020)

I guess I got something wrong with the 8K resolution but what have I to calculate to get 8K = 45MP?

I only get 1920x1080×16= 33,17 MP


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 13, 2020)

puffo25 said:


> The press article is indeed very vague. Does not mention expected released date to the mass market, sensor size, max ISO, details like kind of wifi connectivity, if fully water sealed and price tag.
> Very disappointed!


If they had all that info it would be an 'Release Announcement' not a development announcement. Honestly. Some people would whinge if they were handed a a thousand bucks and told to have fun


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

TracerHD said:


> I guess I got something wrong with the 8K resolution but what have I to calculate to get 8K = 45MP?
> 
> I only get 1920x1080×16= 33,17 MP


that is 16:9 screen ratio, a full frame / camera sensor is 3:2


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

TracerHD said:


> I guess I got something wrong with the 8K resolution but what have I to calculate to get 8K = 45MP?
> 
> I only get 1920x1080×16= 33,17 MP


You have to have an image that's at least 8192 pixels wide. The aspect ratio for the sensor is 3:2 so short side would have to be at least 5462 pixels giving it a 44.7 megapixel resolution.

edit: just like @canonnews says, different aspect ratio for photos and video.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> The 100-500 appears to have four control rings.
> 
> Same look and feel as the magnificent RF70-200.


Nuh, the fourth one is a rotation friction / tension control ring. Tighten up as required to fight zoom creeping. From smooth to tight. You get the gist anyway.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> depends on your camera. Some cameras have DLO built into the JPEG processing so you can turn that on, and it should help your JPEG's. Otherwise, no, it needs the RAW data if you are doing it in post processing on your computer. The RF mount cameras do this much better. as the DLO data packet is stored in the lens itself and downloaded in the camera automagically. with other DSLR's .. i think you may have to load the lens profile manually into the camera.



See, I loaded a lens profile for the 85 1.8 into my RP (firmware 1.4.0) and noticed no difference in LOCA or PF with or without DLO turned on, when making in-camera JPGs, which led me to believe that it's only helpful when shooting RAW (but even then, I can just use the profiles in Lightroom CC).


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Tilty-flippy AND something resembling a small 5D thumb wheel
> 
> The body is still small, but this seems way better. Touch bar RIP?
> 
> ...


How small is the body? 6D size or smaller? Hoping for a 6D sized one. Do we have a size comparo side by side yet ?


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> How small is the body? 6D size or smaller? Hoping for a 6D sized one. Do we have a size comparo side by side yet ?


Someone made a gif comparing it to the R in yesterday's thread and they seemed almost exactly the same size in terms of width/height.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Thanks. To prevent zoom droop. Apparently not needed on the RF 70-200.



Not really. It's probably like the one on the 100-400 that allows the user to select how stiff they want the zoom ring to be.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> because this camera has prosumer ergonomics,


(Hopefully) it doesn't. Sony cameras have "prosumer ergonomics".


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Bangrossi said:


> Are canon will be ******* again this time?
> 
> I guess the R5 price will be around $3500-4000



Not one penny over $3,199 or CANON IS *******!!!!

How's that?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> From Canon USA Press Release:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the wait won't be long for a lot of details. At least we should know the type of cards and probably confirm the resolution. It will be interesting to see how fast and accurate the autofocus is. I hope it doesn't hunt and lose focus like the R. Otherwise that 500mm zoom won't be of much use to birders.



Maybe, maybe not. Remember when the RF 70-200mm f/2.8 l IS mockups were on display at trade shows inside a glass case? So people couldn't even tell if it was an extending design?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

noms78 said:


> lack of mechanical mode dial and separate video switch are the only negatives so far



Not everyone views the lack of a mechanical mode dial as a negative. The 1-Series doesn't have them.

The red button on the top appears to be the "instant" video button just like on the EOS R.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> I think a key thing will be how the Canon lens progresses in aperture. Apparently the Sony is f6.3 at everything after 300mm, so if Canon can maintain f5.6 at 400mm, then it could be a clear winner if aperture is the main gripe.


The optical factor that determines resolution is the diameter of the entrance pupil and it is the same for a 500mm f/7.1 as 400mm f/5.6. I wrote a lot on a similar topic of 500mm f/5.6 vs 600mm f/6.3 in https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...g-and-600mm-f-6-3-vs-500mm-f-5-6-zooms.38178/ A 500mm f/5.6 is significantly better than a 500mm f/7.1. I'd also be surprised, but pleased, if the new 100-500mm would open up to f/5.6 at 400mm. My take is that the 100-500mm will be a very nice safari lens for most people and a wise marketing decision by Canon. If I get an R5 or R6 I will most likely buy this lens. But, it's not what I wanted. 
This announcement is most timely for me as I am evaluating the short to medium term solutions for what is best for my bird shooting, and I live in the short to medium term.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Not everyone views the lack of a mechanical mode dial as a negative. The 1-Series doesn't have them.


Exactly! I use the mode dial on my 5DIV to occasionally switch from Av to M and that's it - huge waste of space if you ask me. Any solution that provides additional functionality is highly welcome.


----------



## Foxeslink (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Not one penny over $3,199 or CANON IS *******!!!!
> 
> How's that?



Expect it to be 3899$ USD


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

noms78 said:


> lack of mechanical mode dial and separate video switch are the only negatives so far





David - Sydney said:


> Could be cheaper... Sony front element is 95mm vs 70mm for the 100-500. If it is sharp @500mm (which it should be or at least sharper than 100-400 + 1.4x @ 500mm), this could be a great addition and should be designed for use with the RF 1.4x = 140-700mm! Perfect for birders on a budget and simply crop to taste! Is there a compelling case for APS-C now... except perhaps for price?



Price is always a compelling case for some.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

padam said:


> That's a very wrong assumption.
> None of the aforementioned cameras have full compatibility with the EF system, including the Dual-Pixel AF and Dual IS, which most setups do not have (Except in the m43 system, which is not FF and not as good in terms of AF).
> There are other things such as colour science, or an ergonomic design without the bulk of a Panasonic S1.
> It is simply a missing piece of an unfinished puzzle.
> Yes, there are other cameras with great specs, but they aren't working as well as an integrated system. Nobody else will be able to match that because that's not how they've designed them in the first place.


There are now adapters for Canon EF to Nikon Z (the Fringer and Techart) that give full capability of most lenses and AF speed and accuracy as good as the Nikon ones, apart from our having to select either/or for IS and IBIS.


----------



## vjlex (Feb 13, 2020)

Foxeslink said:


> Expect it to be 3899$ USD


Unfortunately, that's what I'm expecting too. Will be great if it's $3499 or less, but I'm thinking $3899 or more.


----------



## Flighest (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Nope, cause development anoucements are usually not what Canon does with exception of 1-series cameras.


Ok thanks


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Foxeslink said:


> Expect it to be 3899$ USD



Context is everything, dude. Please read the comment to which I was replying. I do NOT expect it to be introduced at $3,199, but Bangrossi was asking what the "Canon is *******" crowd could possibly say about the R5...


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Not really. It's probably like the one on the 100-400 that allows the user to select how stiff they want the zoom ring to be.


Precisely, loose for push-pull, tight so it doesn't slip in other positions.


----------



## padam (Feb 13, 2020)

AlanF said:


> There are now adapters for Canon EF to Nikon Z (the Fringer and Techart) that give full capability of most lenses and AF speed and accuracy as good as the Nikon ones, apart from our having to select either/or for IS and IBIS.


But they won't work together nearly as well as with Canon and their AF systems are also inferior to Sony or Canon especially in low light.
It is just not a seamless integration with adapters (which are much more expensive anyway, everything moves backwards as well, so why bother).
In short, it is a compromise.
And of course, we shouldn't forget that most RF zooms have the IS as well, unlike almost all of the Z lenses.
As I wrote, imho the Canon mirrorless system was designed in a more thoughtful way.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> The A9 II is 24 megapixels, think again.



And the R5 doubles as a very capable sports camera as well.
Think again. This is a multi purpose camera.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Woody said:


> I don't mind a slow 17-35 f/5.6 lens to complement the 24-105. Also, some lightweight 28 f/1.8, 50 f/1.8 and 85 f/1.8 lenses will be greatly appreciated.



Primes are dead except in the premium space. Not enough folks seem to buy consumer grade primes any more. Everyone happy with cheap lenses wants "zoomz".


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> And the R5 doubles as a very capable sports camera as well.
> Think again. This is a multi purpose camera.


Your point? I don't see how that will anything but strengthen my argument for a price closer to or higher than the A9 II whereas you suggest it will be lower.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Diltiazem said:


> "The EOS R5 will be the first Canon camera equipped with IBIS (In Body Image Stabilization)
> 
> So, R5 will come before R6. Either that or R6 won't have IBIS.



Didn't Canon announce the 1D X ahead of the 5D Mark III as the "first" to have something they both got, but then production delays held up the 1D X and the 5D Mark III actually wound up shipping first? Remember how the 1D X almost missed the Olympics in 2012 and unless you were associated with an organization credentialed to be at the Olympics you couldn't get your hands on a 1D X until after the Olympic games had started?


----------



## -pekr- (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> sigh. #$()*&#$ I hate that ___ word
> 
> No it's not the top camera ..is the 5D the top camera on the EF line?
> 
> ...



Don't worry, I don't like that word too! I have re-added it there, because I expected someone to jump on that. Hey, it has worked  

Your point might be interesting, but where we differ is, that I actually think, that there are some things, which could/should be common as a "standard". For me it is IBIS, AF-ON, tilty-flippy from now on, for all R based bodies. Don't get me wrong - 5D line, both in terms of DSLR and MILC, does belong in the professional area.

We will see, who of us is right. R5 might be developed by completly different team than 1DX III. Maybe R5 team did not have enough of time to incorporate it into R5. We will see, if in 1-2 year timeframe, new AF-ON appears on even cheaper bodies. And if so, then it sucks. If they keep it to just the 1D line, well then ....


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Your point? I don't see how that will anything but strengthen my argument
> for a price closer to or higher than the A9 II whereas you suggest it will be lower.



Canon wants their 50%+ market share back.
Price is one of their tools in that.

A clear price gap between A9II and R5 will make it even
easier to switch back.

Don't worry, Canon will still make a ton of money from that.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Don't worry, I don't like that word too! I have re-added it there, because I expected someone to jump on that. Hey, it has worked
> 
> Your point might be interesting, but where we differ is, that I actually think, that there are some things, which could/should be common as a "standard". For me it is IBIS, AF-ON, tilty-flippy from now on, for all R based bodies. Don't get me wrong - 5D line, both in terms of DSLR and MILC, does belong in the professional area.
> 
> We will see, who of us is right. R5 might be developed by completly different team than 1DX III. Maybe R5 team did not have enough of time to incorporate it into R5. We will see, if in 1-2 year timeframe, new AF-ON appears on even cheaper bodies. And if so, then it sucks. If they keep it to just the 1D line, well then ....



There's alot of things that over the years canon has kept to the 1 series line deliberately. heck spot metering at your AF point comes to mind


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

padam said:


> But they won't work together nearly as well as with Canon and their AF systems are also inferior to Sony or Canon especially in low light.
> It is just not a seamless integration with adapters (which are much more expensive anyway, so why bother). It is a compromise.
> And of course, we shouldn't forget that most RF zooms have the IS as well, unlike almost all of the Z lenses.
> As I wrote, imho the Canon mirrorless system was designed in a more thoughtful way.


The two kit zooms, which have very good write-ups, for the Z50 both have IS. The Nikon Zs like the Canon Rs have had their AFs significantly improved by firmware upgrades. There is not much to choose between them - they are all damn good. However, we Canonistas are now at a disadvantage because we can port our lenses adapted to Nikon and Sony (but seems better to Nikon) but we can't use theirs. It would be nice to use the Nikon 300mm and 500mm PFs on Rs, but Nikon can use the great Canon EF lenses.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> So where is the video that supposedly showed IBIS in operation?
> 
> Jack



Wasn't that the R6, which Canon has yet to officially acknowledge?


----------



## Mikehit (Feb 13, 2020)

AlanF said:


> The optical factor that determines resolution is the diameter of the entrance pupil and it is the same for a 500mm f/7.1 as 400mm f/5.6.



I get that. So why is the Sony at f6.3 from 300mm-600mm if it is all about the entrance pupil?


----------



## Joules (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> I get that. So why is the Sony at f6.3 from 300mm-600mm if it is all about the entrance pupil?


The aperture on the long end seems to indicate little about the aperture in the wide end, or the transition between. If it would be constant, a lens that's f/7.1 at 500mm should be f/1.4 at 100mm.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> that's impossible IMO. the moon properly exposed is nearly same as daylight exposure.



There's the Sunny 16, the Loony 11, and the Moonlit -3. So fifteen stops to contain both the moon and a moonlit landscape during a full moon.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Sony.... is who?


Sony...is...*********


----------



## ethermine (Feb 13, 2020)

I can certainly understand people desiring a consumer product having functions they’re comfortable with based on extended familiarity, but I’m curious how many people are simply complaining for the sake of complaining when they don’t get a configuration precisely how they want, and as a result, they’re denying themselves the potential joy of using the newly designed equipment. A missing button, dial in the “wrong” position, a specific convenience replaced with a different variant, etc. From a personal professional standpoint, I’ve always managed and often enjoyed adapting to new tech and learning new patterns of efficiently utilizing gear.

I suppose my first consideration is “Can I get the image I want out of this thing?” If the answer is yes, then I usually have no problems with adapting to a new comfort zone. Sure, the R5 won’t be exactly like my Mark IVs, 1D series, or the Hasselblad 500 series with Phase One digital backs I used, or my favorite and very first camera/tank the Canon F-1, but I still managed to enjoy using all of them and I produced sellable images from them all. This R5, if I do end up investing in it, will most likely be no different in how I approach utilizing it.

I suppose my unsolicited point is that perhaps, for some people, keeping an open mind and challenging yourself to new designs and modes of use can be a positive and enjoyable experience, as opposed to labeling something as a flaw because it’s outside your singular comfort zone.

Cheers


----------



## geffy (Feb 13, 2020)

can the original R get any cheaper?


----------



## betokella (Feb 13, 2020)

I was hoping the R6 announcement would come out as well...


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> I get that. So why is the Sony at f6.3 from 300mm-600mm if it is all about the entrance pupil?


The designers of zoom lenses have to compromise to get the best balance over the range. They have had to stop down in the middle to balance aberration against diffraction. Look at these resolution figures measured by PCMag
https://www.pcmag.com/review/368812/sony-fe-200-600mm-f5-6-6-3-g-oss
*A7RIV (60 mpx)
Sony 200-600mm*
200mm 4300 l/ph
600mm 4000 l/ph
and compare with:
https://www.pcmag.com/review/351081/canon-ef-400mm-f-4-do-is-ii-usm
*5DSR (50 Mpx)
EF 400mm DO II*, f/4 3576 lines/PH, f/5.6 3909 centre weighted
https://www.pcmag.com/review/365399/sigma-60-600mm-f4-5-6-3-dg-os-hsm-sports
*Sigma 60-600mm
5DSR*
60mm f/4.5 3376, f/5.6 3456
250mm f/5.6 2968, f/8 3404
400mm f/6.3 2481, f/8 2633
600mm f/6.3 2769, f/8 similar

The 100-400mm II is superb over its focal length range, let's see what the 100-500mm will be like.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> f/7.1 is just below the diffraction limit on 45/50mp sensors.
> 
> Wait...are we calling 45/50mp sensors "low resolution" now, in anticipation of the "high resolution" unannounced 83mp monster?



DLA for the EOS 5Ds R is f/6.7, so f/7.1 is _just above_ the DLA for 50MP.


----------



## Ian_of_glos (Feb 13, 2020)

Does anyone know whether the 12 fps continuous shooting is available in AI Servo or are the fastest continuous shooting rates reserved for One Shot AF mode as with the EOS R? Personally I cannot see the point of shooting at 12fps unless it is combined with AI servo.


----------



## Mikehit (Feb 13, 2020)

AlanF said:


> The designers of zoom lenses have to compromise to get the best balance over the range. They have had to stop down in the middle to balance aberration against diffraction. Look at these resolution figures measured by PCMag
> https://www.pcmag.com/review/368812/sony-fe-200-600mm-f5-6-6-3-g-oss
> *A7RIV (60 mpx)
> Sony 200-600mm*
> ...



That makes sense, thanks.
So maybe the Sony is cheaper because the lens design is less costly and they covered the deficiencies by reducing maximum aperture at longer focal lengths. Given the RF 100-500 has 'L' classification I would be mildly surprised if Canon relies on the same design solutions - I would expect it to match the 100-400 at least in the same way as other RF lenses seem to at least match current EF designs.
'Move to RF and compromise on where you can use the lens' seems an odd call to arms.


----------



## Memdroid (Feb 13, 2020)

This body looks killer. Instant buy for me.
I also hope they've fixed the fps speed in AI servo and the snappiness in low light shooting with flash


----------



## Mikehit (Feb 13, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Sony...is...*********




sonyalpharumors is fun at the moment...


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 13, 2020)

shunsai said:


> _Awesome! It's official! _


Superb Development Announcements Canon - the sleeping giant has awoken and ready to take on might of Sony. Love the sound of Eos R5 - especially the 8K mode (possibly 30 fps and 4K up to 120 fps) - may be dual CFE's and slightly larger body with cool fan inside the camera to cool things down inside.

Competition is very welcome as it should wake up Nikon and Sony to up their game and as a Nikon user this would be most welcome.


----------



## Memdroid (Feb 13, 2020)

Also on a dutch reputable dealer there is a little bit more info:








Canon EOS R5 systeemcamera Body Zwart


45 megapixel fullframe sensor – 8K RAW video – 4K video tot 120fps – beeldstabilisatie tot 8 stops – ISO tot 51.200 – 20fps – wifi – bluetooth – LP-E6NH accu




www.cameranu.nl





45 megapixel CMOS sensor
8K video at 30fps RAW
4K video at 120 and 60fps
5GHz wifi

I don't know how accurate this is but it is looking promising


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> That makes sense, thanks.
> So maybe the Sony is cheaper because the lens design is less costly and they covered the deficiencies by reducing maximum aperture at longer focal lengths. Given the RF 100-500 has 'L' classification I would be mildly surprised if Canon relies on the same design solutions - I would expect it to match the 100-400 at least in the same way as other RF lenses seem to at least match current EF designs.
> 'Move to RF and compromise on where you can use the lens' seems an odd call to arms.


I don't think they cut corners in the optical design. Apparently, it closely matches the expensive Sony FE 100-400mm G Master in the 200-400mm range where they overlap and beats it at 560mm when with 1.4xTC. The Sony lens is clearly an attempt to capture the birding and nature market.


----------



## Mikehit (Feb 13, 2020)

AlanF said:


> I don't think they cut corners in the optical design. Apparently, it closely matches the expensive Sony FE 100-400mm G Master in the 200-400mm range where they overlap can beats it at 560mm when with 1.4xTC. The Sony lens is clearly an attempt to capture the birding and nature market.




I am not saying they cut corners, but they designed to a price point which is what every manufacturer does with every product. And if they are going to maintain image quality in the centre of the optics, while offering at such a reasonable price something has to give and maybe that was the peripheral optics. Not a criticism but an assumption as to why it is f6.3 so early in its zoom range. Panasonic produce excellent glass in conjunction with Leica, but their zooms show similar characteristics - the aperture looks good on the spec sheet but then you find that it hits the narrowest aperture early in its zoom range compared to others.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Canon wants their 50%+ market share back.
> Price is one of their tools in that.
> 
> A clear price gap between A9II and R5 will make it even
> ...


Look maybe we simply misunderstand each other here. 
If, and that is what I understand you suggest, Canon decides to pit the R5 against the A9 II, they are not going to undercut the price, because video features and resolution easily outperform the A9 II whereas other features might be more similar. So Canon would offer a newer, better camera for a price lower than the A9 II and I don't think that is going to happen. How would they justify a price premium for a potential R1 with a feature set similar to the 1Dx III, assuming it comes anyhwere sooner than the 2024 1DX replacement would come.

I agree with you that they are going going to undercut the A9 II, they have to. But they are not targeting that segment of the market. They are going to target A7R IV and Z7 instead and I see a price higher than the Z7 and close to the A7R IV (maybe even a tad higher, cause 8K).


----------



## Arek (Feb 13, 2020)

Hay everyone! I feel disgusted with the canon's behavior. Olympus, Fuji clearly and boast of their achievements, while Canon hides everything under the pillow and quietly announces a new product. Is he scared?


----------



## freejay (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Unlikely. Canon has a track record of mass pre-producing cameras.
> They built 2.400.000 copies of the 5D MkIV before they started shipping.
> 
> Canon will for sure build close to seven digit copies of the R5
> ...


All I wanted to say is: I want one! Now!


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Feb 13, 2020)

Where are all those brilliant graphic designers & photo editors on the other thread who were convinced the R5 leaked photo was a bad Photoshop job and therefore the CR3 rumor was pure, unadulterated BS?


----------



## Aaron Lozano (Feb 13, 2020)

Here hoping that some of the RF lens are actually affordable.

Seeing how prices of the mirror-less cameras depreciate in time and how much they evolve, I would say the R5 Mark 2 from 2022 is going to be tremendous


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Arek said:


> Hay everyone! I feel disgusted with the canon's behavior. Olympus, Fuji clearly and boast of their achievements, while Canon hides everything under the pillow and quietly announces a new product. Is he scared?


It's a development announcement so what exactly were you expecting? It's nothing unheard of before and a lot of manufacturers do it.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> Interested in the extenders. My guess is that unlike EF extenders they'll work with any RF lens and probably even the RF-EF adaptors and therefore any EF lens too



Nope. Those RF extenders project deep into the lens, and many RF lenses have rear elements very close to the lens mount by design. So definitely not going to be compatible with all RF lenses.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Feb 13, 2020)

Also, where are all those naysayers saying Canon can't do 8K because of slow chips, unstacked CMOS, primitive process tech, etc.?


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I"m betting that's a not 5D-sized scroll wheel, but people will be posting overlays on 5D4 and EOS R in 3, 2, 1...



Pretty clear to me that it's a ~x0D size rear dial, with the whole layout being _very_ similar to the 90D; the biggest difference seems to be the addition of a RATE/voice memo button. Seems very comfy ergonomics even if not 5D size, certainly lightyears above the a7 bodies.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> My (not joking this time) guess -- in no particular order:
> 
> A non-L 50 prime of some sort (nifty fifty, weird pancake, mid-ish-level like the 35 f/1.8 STM 1:2 Macro, etc.)
> Some small non-L primes like the 35 f/1.8
> ...


Really hope we're getting some f/1.8 primes - now that there's IBIS hopefully without extra IS bulk - for reasonable prices. The selection of affordable f/1.8 glass Nikon offers for their F-mount has me green with envy for years now.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> I bet that a lot of the folks who kept their EF lenses and went
> the MC-11 route are coming back in hordes.
> 
> After all, Sony never got the user interface and ergonomics
> ...



Like the Canon 1-Series, the Nikon Dn series is about more than just specs.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> 8,000 things were not mentioned. We'll have to live in suspense.



I thought they explicitly mentioned "8K" things


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> I can definitely see a 'pro' style body as far as ergonomics go and built tougher. Although I imagine that as this is canon the R5 will have exceptional ergonomics anyway and be built pretty damn tough. Not sure they would emit 8k in the flagship now that they have it available. AF? Yep. Although I assume the AF of the R5 will be amazing anyway as it has to cope with 20fps in electronic shutter mode(again I am assuming it will AF in this mode). Battery life. Yep. Resolution? Maybe, but the resolution issue is not an improvement or otherwise. This thing seems awfully close to being a flagship. It certainly gives the A9 a run for its money ad if this matches the A9 imagine how sad Sony's flagship will look next to canon.



To get cinema 8K out of 3:2 sensor requires a minimum of around 40MP. Canon's 1-Series are currently at 20 MP.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> how's it been letting you down? (off topic) for that lens you really need to use DPP's DLO function against it.. especially to combat the PF that it exhibits.



Yes! The jump in picture quality makes it worth the frustration and processing time for me. I have a script to move pictures with non-Canon lenses directly to Lightroom and move pictures with 'crappy' Canon lenses to the DPP4 folder.
So glad photography is not my day job


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So much good news but not a word about the dynamic range of the R5. Will it handle a decent nightscape with the moon in it?..



Moon?? Unless it can handle a decent nightscape with the _sun_ in it it's a no buy for me.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Viggo said:


> So cameras will be so expensive most people would have to downgrade one model compare to dslr’s... personally I can’t justify a 1d OR this R5 (if it’s $4000), leaving me with the lowest end FF camera. Understand this tech costs, it just sucks to see the value for money ...



The 5D Mark IV came out of the gate at $3,499 in 2016. That's equivalent to $3,727 with inflation between 2016 and 2020.

The 5D Mark III was priced at $3,499 in 2012 when it was introduced. That's worth $3,896 today.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 13, 2020)

shunsai said:


> I think people doubting the specs were in the minority. At least here. A CR3 is generally a pretty safe bet.



The only part of my skeptic posts that turned out to be accurate...
“Crow tastes good at 20 FPS.”


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 13, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Does DLO actually help with the JPGS the camera produces? Have never gotten a clear answer on this.



If you have:

A Digic 8 or newer processor
The DLO profile loaded into the camera (5 for R, 3 for RP, M6II, M50)
The DLO corrections enabled
If you do all that, the JPGs will have DLO, but video and viewfinder will only have vignetting corrected. It's mentioned in the footnotes of the manual. I specifically looked it up before buying the M6II.


----------



## Aaron Lozano (Feb 13, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Don't worry, I don't like that word too! I have re-added it there, because I expected someone to jump on that. Hey, it has worked
> 
> Your point might be interesting, but where we differ is, that I actually think, that there are some things, which could/should be common as a "standard". For me it is IBIS, AF-ON, tilty-flippy from now on, for all R based bodies. Don't get me wrong - 5D line, both in terms of DSLR and MILC, does belong in the professional area.
> 
> We will see, who of us is right. R5 might be developed by completly different team than 1DX III. Maybe R5 team did not have enough of time to incorporate it into R5. We will see, if in 1-2 year timeframe, new AF-ON appears on even cheaper bodies. And if so, then it sucks. If they keep it to just the 1D line, well then ....



I am looking at the picture provided by canon and I see the AF-ON button and a AF point selecting joystiq. Hard to follow the sort of discussion you guys try to commit to.




Maybe you want it all in one single button joystick. By any means, this camera comes with so much innovation, that if you put the latest 5D camera releases (including 5D2/3/4) this camera beats all of them in the hype-meter.

Been with my 5DIII since release and I never saw a need to upgrade, on paper, this one really starts looking like a great enough improvement for my needs. IF files are very clean in low ISO, AF is a visible improvement, 12 fps and IBIS with flippy screen...I see plenty reasons.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

puffo25 said:


> The press article is indeed very vague. Does not mention expected released date to the mass market, sensor size, max ISO, details like kind of wifi connectivity, if fully water sealed and price tag.
> Very disappointed!



On the other hand, we now _*know*_ the camera exists, and the images of the front and back give us a lot of clues about what kind of camera it will be.


----------



## dlee13 (Feb 13, 2020)

My guess for the RF lenses are 

135mm
100mm 
24mm
35mm
Budget 50mm
Maybe another tele zoom or prime

The main reason I think they will likely release these lens this is a pro body for sure and a lot of the above lenses would come in handy for Pros. The Macro to me is a must!


----------



## mjg79 (Feb 13, 2020)

I expect these teleconverters will be, by some margin, the best Canon or anyone has ever made.

Look at the Sony FE teleconverters - putting aside the normal questions around Sony's appalling quality control etc - they are the best there is, exceptional image quality *and* almost half the size of the current Canon EF lenses. Teleconverters really appear to be one of those areas vastly improved by the wider, shallower mount and therefore proximity to the sensor.

It will be interesting to see how they work with the RF-EF adapters and thus EF lenses - might be a nice way to keep bringing people into the system while allowing them to keep using some of their EF glass.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2020)

puffo25 said:


> Very disappointed!



I swear one of these days I'm going to write a script that replaces all "Very disappointed" style texts on CR with "Look at me, I was stupid and had unrealistic expectations!" or something to that effect


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> Where has all that EOS R whining gone???


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> sonyalpharumors is fun at the moment...


need some more popcorn, time to head back to SAR..


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> The A9 II is 24 megapixels, think again.



The linear difference in pixel size between 20 and 24 MP is 9.5%.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Also, where are all those naysayers saying Canon can't do 8K because of slow chips, unstacked CMOS, primitive process tech, etc.?


they are all in the dpreview comment section.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

TracerHD said:


> I guess I got something wrong with the 8K resolution but what have I to calculate to get 8K = 45MP?
> 
> I only get 1920x1080×16= 33,17 MP



What you missed is the extra height needed to take a 16:9 aspect ratio and put it in a 3:2 stills camera.

It's 1920x1280x16=39.3 MP

Cinema 8K has an even wider aspect ratio: 8192x4320, so you need a 8192x5461 sensor to do 3:2, but 5461 is not divisible by 8, so you need to increase the total size to 8208x5472=44.9MP to get both sides of a 3:2 sensor divisible by 8.


----------



## mjg79 (Feb 13, 2020)

dlee13 said:


> My guess for the RF lenses are
> 
> 135mm
> 100mm
> ...



I think an RF 135L and RF 24L are near certainties. Canon obviously considers EF and RF as a cohesive whole. They are looking to add value - so the 24-70/2.8 got IS, the 70-200/2.8 got smaller, the 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 were both older designs needing updates.

The 135L, outstanding though it is - I happily use it wide open on a 5DSR and it delivers, is ready to be updated - perhaps with a shorter MFD and IS. The 24L II is also ready to be updated especially because 24mm is a focal length where the advantages of mirrorless come into play. Just look at Sony's outstanding 24GM - Canon will want to better it.

I think they might not be in a big rush for a new 35 unless they decide to go for a 1.2. The EF 35 L II is still so amazing, adapts perfectly and in general 35mm lenses don't see much size change with mirrorless. Hopefully I am wrong!

I suspect at least one of the new lenses will be some sort of "halo" L lens as Canon seems to really be going for it - maybe the hoped-for f/2 wide angle zoom? Or a 100mm 1.4 or 28/1.2 or something like that.

Personally the best surprise for me of the RF lenses so far has been the 35mm 1.8 IS. It really is tiny, focuses very closely, is sharp, has IS. I am hoping it heralds a whole series of high quality, small, modest aperture primes. Imagine a 20/2.8, 28/2. 50/1.8, 85/18 and 100/2 all brought up to modern optics, all remaining very small and light, all having top notch IS - would be great fun and form a solid base for the RF mount


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The linear difference in pixel size between 20 and 24 MP is 9.5%.


Maybe I'm missing something but what's with 20 Megapixels?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> sonyalpharumors is fun at the moment...


Thanks, it's really fun. Like a mirror of CR. Everything is the same but upside down.

'Canontrolls', 
'Canon fanboys', 
'Sony is *******', 
'Sony wake up!'
'- I'm switching to Canon!
- Goodbye'
'Nobody needs 8k'

etc. etc. etc.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> You have to have an image that's at least 8192 pixels wide. The aspect ratio for the sensor is 3:2 so short side would have to be at least 5462 pixels giving it a 44.7 megapixel resolution.
> 
> edit: just like @canonnews says, different aspect ratio for photos and video.


 
Except 5462 is not divisible by 8. The next image height that works at 3:2 where both dimensions are multiples of 8 is 8208x5472.


----------



## yeahright (Feb 13, 2020)

Aaron Lozano said:


> I am looking at the picture provided by canon and I see the AF-ON button and a AF point selecting joystiq. Hard to follow the sort of discussion you guys try to commit to.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Maybe you want it all in one single button joystick. By any means, this camera comes with so much innovation, that if you put the latest 5D camera releases (including 5D2/3/4) this camera beats all of them in the hype-meter.


They are talking about the NEW AF-ON Button so far only found on the 1D Mark III that also has a Joystick AND an AF-ON-Button, but the AF-ON-Button is not only a button but also (as far as I understand) allows AF-point switching. It appears they would have wanted this new button to appear on the R5 as well. As it is, the R5 has the traditional controls already found on the 5D Mark IV. What I am missing is the AF mode selector button (to switch from point to the various AF area modes). Is it hidden somewhere or is that feature implemented differently on mirrorless?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Moon?? Unless it can handle a decent nightscape with the _sun_ in it it's a no buy for me.



The dynamic range won't need to be very high for such a condition btw as the sun will be relatively low.


----------



## yeahright (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Except 5462 is not divisible by 8. The next image height that works at 3:2 where both dimensions are multiples of 8 is 8208x5472.


Why does sensor height need to be divisible by 8 to allow 8K video recording?


----------



## LensFungus (Feb 13, 2020)

Fake news! Here is the original text:

*"MELVILLE, NY, February 12, 2020 –* Canon U.S.A. Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today announced that its parent company, Canon Inc., is crushing Sony. Sony is *******!"


----------



## Mikehit (Feb 13, 2020)

yeahright said:


> They are talking about the NEW AF-ON Button so far only found on the 1D Mark III that also has a Joystick AND an AF-ON-Button, but the AF-ON-Button is not only a button but also (as far as I understand) allows AF-point switching. It appears they would have wanted this new button to appear on the R5 as well. As it is, the R5 has the traditional controls already found on the 5D Mark IV. What I am missing is the AF mode selector button (to switch from point to the various AF area modes). Is it hidden somewhere or is that feature implemented differently on mirrorless?



My guess is that it is programmable. And if people are going to reprogram it, why bother labelling it?


----------



## Stanri010 (Feb 13, 2020)

Someone please explain to me what in the world is this thing for? It's one of the major differences between the R5 and the R.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> Someone please explain to me what in the world is this thing for? It's one of the major differences between the R5 and the R.
> View attachment 188656



my guess is pc sync port.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> Someone please explain to me what in the world is this thing for?


Covered socket for a remote shutter release?


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> my guess is pc sync port.


Remote port. Flash sync is on the side. This is very similar to the 5D IV design and as such quite smart. Their reason to put it there was to separate it from the other ports in case you decide to use the remote in harsh environments so the risk of dirt or water getting into "important" ports is reduced.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Joules said:


> The aperture on the long end seems to indicate little about the aperture in the wide end, or the transition between. If it would be constant, a lens that's f/7.1 at 500mm should be f/1.4 at 100mm.



That's the difference between the diaphragm opening and the entrance pupil (which is what most people actually mean when they say "aperture"). The magnification between the physical diaphragm affects the size of the e.p. As the lens is zoomed, the e.p. grows as the magnification increases. Without that magnification, a simple 70-300mm f/4-5.6 would be a 70-300mm f/4-17 with a 17.5mm diaphragm opening.


----------



## Stanri010 (Feb 13, 2020)

You think remote shutter release was important enough to add to the R5?


----------



## jam05 (Feb 13, 2020)

Savy. Just enough info to keep the buzz until CP+. "Industry leader" in mirrorless would be their marketing mantra on July 24th


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> You think remote shutter release was important enough to add to the R5?


It was important enough to be put on the 1Dx III, so absolutely yes.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> You think remote shutter release was important enough to add to the R5?


Yes.


----------



## Stanri010 (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> It was important enough to be put on the 1Dx III, so absolutely yes.


The R didn't have it and had Bluetooth connectivity to be able to have remote shutter on everything from your phone to iPad to pc. :/


----------



## LensFungus (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> sonyalpharumors is fun at the moment...


https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/com...sony-wake-up-and-deliver-the-a7sii-successor/

Here is the text:
"It’s now Sony’s turn o anser this camera. The bext news"

"o anser", "bext news". Sonyalpharumors Guy still hasn't corrected that stuff. The Canon specs made him sweaty and weak. Sonyalpharumors Guy is now in an oxygen tent where three nurses are taking care of him.


----------



## 12Broncos (Feb 13, 2020)

YES!!!!


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

AlexKireyev said:


> Они только объявили о начале разработки, что значит что такая камера появится неизвестно когда ))



No, it means they have decided to let everyone know they are developing it. The EOS 1D X Mark III development announcement came only four months before release. They already had the camera in the hands of testers before the "development" announcement.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 13, 2020)

This is awesome! So glad I switched to the RF system in October 2018, selling all my EF cameras and lenses. Truly amazed by the technological improvements introduced by the R system. The EOS R is a great camera, the EOS R5 a dream camera!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> The R didn't have it and had Bluetooth connectivity to be able to have remote shutter on everything from your phone to iPad to pc. :/


I actually prefer a wired shutter release on 5DIV, often when shooting from a tripod. CameraConnect on my phone works ok but a) it take time set it up b) there's a noticeable lag and it requires you to aim the button on the screen every time or there's a high chance you miss the button and the shot.
Also you might be using remote release with timer for long bulb exposures.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> The R didn't have it and had Bluetooth connectivity to be able to have remote shutter on everything from your phone to iPad to pc. :/


This camera is clearly a step up from the R and nothing beats a wired connection if you really have to rely on it. I'm pretty sure the R5 will offer plentiful wireless connectivity options as well, so no worries there.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Where are all those brilliant graphic designers & photo editors on the other thread who were convinced the R5 leaked photo was a bad Photoshop job and therefore the CR3 rumor was pure, unadulterated BS?


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Remote port. Flash sync is on the side. This is very similar to the 5D IV design and as such quite smart. Their reason to put it there was to separate it from the other ports in case you decide to use the remote in harsh environments so the risk of dirt or water getting into "important" ports is reduced.


oh good call! my mistake. I should have looked more closely at the side ports.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

AlexKireyev said:


> Они только объявили о начале разработки, что значит что такая камера появится неизвестно когда ))


not true.

they announced it because they want to start showing it off at conferences in literally what.. 8 days from now?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> If you have:
> 
> A Digic 8 or newer processor
> The DLO profile loaded into the camera (5 for R, 3 for RP, M6II, M50)
> ...



The 5D Mark IV has a DiG!C6+ and has in-camera DLO applied to JPEGs when shooting (assuming the lens profile is loaded).


----------



## ErlendS (Feb 13, 2020)

I don't understand how some of you seems to be dissapointed by the specs? I am still waiting for the resolution, but if there is a significant increase over my existing 5DIV, this camera checks all the boxes for me. On the FPS (though subject to the resolution) this really exceeds my expectations! Canon, please take my money!! R here I come!


----------



## Act444 (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> here's a better shot of the back
> 
> View attachment 188651



Good to see. This is what the back of the ORIGINAL R should have looked like!


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but what's with 20 Megapixels?



I had a brain fart and thought you were comparing the α9II to the 1D X Mark III.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2020)

ErlendS said:


> I don't understand how some of you seems to be dissapointed by the specs? I am still waiting for the resolution, but if there is a significant increase over my existing 5DIV, this camera checks all the boxes for me.



What are you waiting for? It is 100% certain that it's going to be at least 40MP, and extremely likely to be 45MP.

Regarding the disappointments, well, if you gave some people a 200MP body shooting RAW at 100fps and full-res video at 480fps, with a morphing body that can both fit in your pocket and comfortably hold a 800mm lens, depending on the situation, a builtin 1x–8x extender, and a max ISO of 2^32 with 64 stops of DR, and all that for $100, they'd complain that the camera is too versatile and they don't want to pay extra for features they don't need.


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

Act444 said:


> Good to see. This is what the back of the ORIGINAL R should have looked like!



The AF nubby from the 1DX3


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

yeahright said:


> They are talking about the NEW AF-ON Button so far only found on the 1D Mark III that also has a Joystick AND an AF-ON-Button, but the AF-ON-Button is not only a button but also (as far as I understand) allows AF-point switching. It appears they would have wanted this new button to appear on the R5 as well. As it is, the R5 has the traditional controls already found on the 5D Mark IV. What I am missing is the AF mode selector button (to switch from point to the various AF area modes). Is it hidden somewhere or is that feature implemented differently on mirrorless?



Maybe you could map that "useless DoF button" on the front of the camera to do that?


----------



## padam (Feb 13, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> The R didn't have it and had Bluetooth connectivity to be able to have remote shutter on everything from your phone to iPad to pc. :/


Yes. And it still sucks.




__





The EOS R Diary : Remote Release Options – Laszlo Pusztai







www.laszlopusztai.net


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

Excellent! So if they make a 45Mpixel 5DMkV it seems I was wrong to have bought a second 5DsR for birding  (Although admittedly I bought it much cheaper than my first one).


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

yeahright said:


> Why does sensor height need to be divisible by 8 to allow 8K video recording?




It doesn't, but it needs to be divisible by eight to efficiently do JPEG compression.


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Maybe you could map that "useless DoF button" on the front of the camera to do that?


Exactly! For example, I map mine on my DSLRs to switch between One Shot and Servo.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> My guess is that it is programmable. And if people are going to reprogram it, why bother labelling it?



The new button on the 1D X Mark III has a "touchpad" like surface in the middle that allows the user to scroll around the VF with their thumb. It's obviously not included in the R5.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

Traveler said:


> Why do you even turn it off? I keep turned it on even when it’s resting on a shelf and it doesn’t eat anything from the battery



I think the on off switch is the biggest waste of space on any camera.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The new button on the 1D X Mark III has a "touchpad" like surface in the middle that allows the user to scroll around the VF with their thumb. It's obviously not included in the R5.
> 
> View attachment 188658


For me the location of the joystick on the R5 is better being right next to AF-ON


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

tron said:


> Excellent! So if they make a 45Mpixel 5DMkV it seems I was wrong to have bought a second 5DsR for birding  (Although admittedly I bought it much cheaper than my first one).


I wouldn't bet too much money on a comparable 5DV anytime soon. This is the camera they need(ed) to make to persuade 5DIV users to switch to mirrorless so there's no need to offer a mirrored alternative too quickly.


----------



## Mikehit (Feb 13, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> What are you waiting for? It is 100% certain that it's going to be at least 40MP, and extremely likely to be 45MP.



Nah. It's dual pixel mate - each pixel cleaved in half so it only needs to be 20 full megapickles wide. It would be just like Canon to do something sneaky like that.


----------



## londonxt (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> 1DxIII, R5 and seven lenses. Canon, you are forcing me to delay retirement.



At this rate, retiring from the photography hobby altogether is probably a good idea lol


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> I think the inn off switch is the biggest waste of space on any camera.


Well if Canon managed to develop a GPS mode that goes to sleep just like the rest of the camera does, then yes. I was so used to never turning my cameras off until I got my 5DIV and started using GPS.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> For me the location of the joystick on the R5 is better being right next to AF-ON



Well, on the 1DX3 the AF point touchpad is literally the same button! Can't get closer than that.


----------



## snoke (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> I wouldn't bet too much money on a comparable 5DV anytime soon. This is the camera they need(ed) to make to persuade 5DIV users to switch to mirrorless so there's no need to offer a mirrored alternative too quickly.



Maybe. Dont know price. If R5 cheaper, yes, if R5 more expensive, maybe.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> The R didn't have it and had Bluetooth connectivity to be able to have remote shutter on everything from your phone to iPad to pc. :/



That's all fine and good until want to use an RF trigger from 300 feet away and need somewhere to plug in the cable from the receiver. Or when you want to shoot under a dark sky at night without blowing your night vision by lighting up a screen on your iPad or phone. Or when you'd rather just use the simplest solution (a wired release) while keeping your phone available to do _phone_ things (like take calls).


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

snoke said:


> Maybe. Dont know price. If R5 cheaper, yes, if R5 more expensive, maybe.


See and that's why simply not offering an alternative is the easiest and most reliable way to help users make the decision to switch.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 13, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Well, on the 1DX3 the AF point touchpad is literally the same button! Can't get closer than that.


Of course, that's what I really would have liked but don't have on my 1DX2. Now it's, do I buy R5 and maybe sell the beast or have both considering there are 1 series features I have grown to love. The 1DX3 resolution makes that purchase unwise for my use. I'm sure there are others with my frustration.

Jack


----------



## arthurbikemad (Feb 13, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Of course, that's what I really would have liked but don't have on my 1DX2. Now it's, do I buy R5 and maybe sell the beast or have both considering there are 1 series features I have grown to love. The 1DX3 resolution makes that purchase unwise for my use. I'm sure there are others with my frustration.
> 
> Jack



Upgrade the Mk2 to a Mk3 and buy a R5 later on 

p.s You can thank me later


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> They will for sure attack the Sony A9 II also pricewise.
> Which translates to a price point not over $4000,
> maybe even lower.
> 
> ...



Yes. And to sell lots of $2000+ lenses.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 13, 2020)

arthurbikemad said:


> Upgrade the Mk2 to a Mk3 and buy a R5 later on
> 
> p.s You can thank me later


I'll save the thank you to after you've slipped me the $$$! It's a wonderful idea though. 

Jack


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> Nah. It's dual pixel mate - each pixel cleaved in half so it only needs to be 20 full megapickles wide. It would be just like Canon to do something sneaky like that.



Dual pixel actually works the other way around, it's a 80-90MPix sensor, the 2 subpixels are combined into a single output pixel. The 5D4 was a "Dual Pixel Raw" option that a files with double the pixels.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> The A9 II is 24 megapixels, think again.



I don’t know the exact Sony specs but the R5 might have good enough speed and resolution that it steals customers from both the A7 and A9. When I was looking at leaving Nikon I considered Sony but was looking at both of those. For me I don’t care if it isn’t as high res as the 7 or fast as the 9. The R5 is good enough at each. And most importantly unlike the competition, at BOTH.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> I wouldn't bet too much money on a comparable 5DV anytime soon. This is the camera they need(ed) to make to persuade 5DIV users to switch to mirrorless so there's no need to offer a mirrored alternative too quickly.



It will either appear with or fairly soon after or it will never, ever appear.


----------



## ethermine (Feb 13, 2020)

I don’t think most people take all relevant market segments into consideration when forming opinions on individual products. Most people that are “sweating” over on that sony rumors page are those that are hung up on the camera spec wars and are incapable of seeing the forest for the trees. Sony as a whole probably see this whole chess game and Canon’s move as simply another step to validate a broader consumer push for 8k content and devices. Sony would love for their line of 8k TVs to be more mainstream, and Canon releasing a relatively budget friendly 8k device plays right into that. Sony’s answer will most likely be releasing their own reasonably priced 8k camera. Anyone that expected 8k equipment to be priced astronomically forever should be rudely awakened by what history has shown with pricing trends with old and the then upcoming technologies. Anyone remember the $10k+ Sony Betacams?

Any company that’s crying about how their expensive hardware is going to be outclassed by something substantially cheaper is simply bad at business and didn’t plan the appropriate steps ahead. All the top contenders that know this chess game most likely knew this time would come and have their own plans to stay relevant in the market. Who came first is mostly irrelevant in the long run, IMO. Canon and Sony are far from being *******. The next decade of tech looks pretty promising and potentially incredibly profitable for all the top contenders. Bring it. Loving the potential of the R5 and what it means to the average consumer.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Remember when the RF 70-200mm f/2.8 l IS mockups were on display at trade shows inside a glass case? So people couldn't even tell if it was an extending design?




But couldn't they tell just by looking at it? Either it was at 200mm and clearly had a protruding barrel, or it was half the size at 70mm. Did people actually think Canon had bypassed the laws of physics and made a 70-200 2.8 FF lens at half the size -- that what was in the case at 70mm was an entire internally-focsing lens?

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> There's alot of things that over the years canon has kept to the 1 series line deliberately. heck spot metering at your AF point comes to mind




I always shake my fist at Canon withholding that feature, something you can get on an entry level Nikon.

- A


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Precisely, loose for push-pull, tight so it doesn't slip in other positions.



Honest question from a new to Canon student: do some people really just yank the hood to zoom that one?


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> I wouldn't bet too much money on a comparable 5DV anytime soon. This is the camera they need(ed) to make to persuade 5DIV users to switch to mirrorless so there's no need to offer a mirrored alternative too quickly.


They would make money at least from me. I would upgrade my 5DIV to 5DV and EOS R to EOS R5. In fact I could upgrade both my 5DIV and one of my two 5DsRs to 5DV (I would sacrifice 5Mpixels out of 50 for increased IQ in both shadows and high ISO, more fps and bigger buffer). But that's me. I cannot know about everyone else.


----------



## Occams_Cat (Feb 13, 2020)

I'm sold. Ticks all the boxes for me, so I'll take two of these to replace my aging 5D3 and 1DX. 

We have to presume that it'll be CF Express, so it's goodbye to my HUGE collection of excellent CF cards and readers and 'hello' to yet another £1,300 bill to buy just 4 x 128GB cards and two card readers! 

Add this to the £12K of RF lenses I need to replace the EF glass, and this is going to be a my once a decade business investement done.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

AlexKireyev said:


> Они только объявили о начале разработки, что значит что такая камера появится неизвестно когда ))




It's implied it will be this year, but I take your point. It might not.

Подразумевается, что это будет в этом году, но я понимаю вашу точку зрения. Возможно, нет.

- A


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> See and that's why simply not offering an alternative is the easiest and most reliable way to help users make the decision to switch.


Reliable and disgusting at the same time maybe?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> But couldn't they tell just by looking at it? Either it was at 200mm and clearly had a protruding barrel, or it was half the size at 70mm. Did people actually think Canon had bypassed the laws of physics and made a 70-200 2.8 FF lens at half the size -- that what was in the case at 70mm was an entire internally-focsing lens?
> 
> - A



There were a few here that insisted the shorter registration distance made it possible...


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> I don’t know the exact Sony specs but the R5 might have good enough speed and resolution that it steals customers from both the A7 and A9. When I was looking at leaving Nikon I considered Sony but was looking at both of those. For me I don’t care if it isn’t as high res as the 7 or fast as the 9. The R5 is good enough at each. And most importantly unlike the competition, at BOTH.


Yes you're absolutely correct. But if Canon decided to market the R5 as an alternative to the A9, asking a lower price for what is supposedly a much more capable camera wouldn't be a smart move. Pricing is never about what a camera can do but always about where the manufacturer sees its peers. And in the case of a R5 that's going to be any A7R series and Nikon Z7. Pretending it belonged anywhere close to the A9 would imply it also belongs close to the 1Dx III and you don't want to go down that road, cause then you'd have to ask whether the build quality of the 1Dx justifies its price premium or whether a R5 wouldn't belong in the same price category.


----------



## Canon1966 (Feb 13, 2020)

It looks like a small 5DIV with articulating screen. I like it!


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Feb 13, 2020)

dlee13 said:


> My guess for the RF lenses are
> 
> 135mm
> 100mm
> ...



I think we might see the RF 300 and 500 primes; they didn't get v3's with the 400 and 600, and what are we putting a 1.4x and 2x converter on? Surely not the 100-500 which would make a f/14 1000mm.


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

All it needs now to compete with A9 is a 200-600 f/5.6-6.3L lens (a f/7.1 lens up to 500mm will not do the trick).


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

Canon1966 said:


> It looks like a small 5DIV with articulating screen. I like it!


More like a small 5DV (assuming they make 5DV).


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

Let's hope it has a USB Type-C and can charge via USB just like EOS R (I cann't see why not). If they also made it to be able to charge while operating it would be perfect. Think timelapses, etc.


----------



## armd (Feb 13, 2020)

I’m wondering whether this means I can sell my Sony gear? Glad I’ve kept my long EF lenses which are worth virtually nothing. Wish we knew further details and ballpark pricing?


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

tron said:


> Reliable and disgusting at the same time maybe?


Possibly. But reasonable from abusiness point of view. Given Canon's history I'm inclined to say there isn't going to be a 5DV. The 1Dx was the last significant DSLR from Canon and I believe the main reason is that there simply wasn't enough native RF tele glass ready and out in the world for a mirrorless R1.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> Personally the best surprise for me of the RF lenses so far has been the 35mm 1.8 IS. It really is tiny, focuses very closely, is sharp, has IS. I am hoping it heralds a whole series of high quality, small, modest aperture primes. Imagine a 20/2.8, 28/2. 50/1.8, 85/18 and 100/2 all brought up to modern optics, all remaining very small and light, all having top notch IS - would be great fun and form a solid base for the RF mount



Agreed, except I wish they would let me limit the close up focal range in firmware because 3/4 of the focus range of the RF 35 is closer than a foot and that makes focusing closer and noisier.


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Possibly. But reasonable from abusiness point of view. Given Canon's history I'm inclined to say there isn't going to be a 5DV. The 1Dx was the last significant DSLR from Canon and I believe the main reason is that there simply wasn't enough native RF tele glass ready and out in the world for a mirrorless R1.


I believe Canon's intention to make 5DV has been mentioned in this forum a couple of months ago. We will know in about a year tops.


----------



## TMACIOSZEK (Feb 13, 2020)

Has anyone seen if the 12fps are in still mode or in servo mode?


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I should have tradmarked this


I liked Craig’s twitter question. “Is 8k enough or do you want more Ks?”


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

TMACIOSZEK said:


> Has anyone seen if the 12fps are in still mode or in servo mode?


Nope, that info is unavailable but it'd be a big surprise if it weren't full AE/AF in any AF mode for 12 and 20 fps.


----------



## scottydog (Feb 13, 2020)

Diltiazem said:


> "The EOS R5 will be the first Canon camera equipped with IBIS (In Body Image Stabilization)
> 
> So, R5 will come before R6. Either that or R6 won't have IBIS.


Yup. Noticed this too. Is the R6 vaporware, then?


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

For what it’s worth, while reading this thread on my phone I was served an ad for the new Nikon D6, and it changed to a JCPenney ad for jeans for really fat women. 

I’m still processing the irony.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 13, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> The R didn't have it and had Bluetooth connectivity to be able to have remote shutter on everything from your phone to iPad to pc. :/


The R most definitely does have a remote port, it's just the lower end, 2.5mm mini jack style you find on most lower end Canons.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Honest question from a new to Canon student: do some people really just yank the hood to zoom that one?



I've seen user of all brands do it with "push-pull" zooms, a/k/a "dust pumps", which is what the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS is. The EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS II, on the other hand, has a zoom ring.


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 13, 2020)

EverydayPhotographer said:


> Welp, that’s about it. I think 2020 is the year that I start dumping money into the R series. Can’t wait to see what the 100-500 yields image-wise. Is there a link to more info on the lens announcements?


If comparable to the EF 100-400mm, including close focus, it will be amazing.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

TMACIOSZEK said:


> Has anyone seen if the 12fps are in still mode or in servo mode?



'AI Servo AF' is a still imaging mode. Do you mean 'One Shot AF' mode?


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Okay, I've had a night to sleep on it. I'm geeked about what we all think is coming, but *I just have to wonder if what they aren't telling us is a really big deal or not*.

Big stuff we still don't formally know yet:

If this camera truly is in the 45 MP neighborhood (even though it's 44.7 MP or so for 3:2 8K to be true...) -- hear me out

Any chance at all that 'other tech' is making an otherwise lower-res-than-we-think sensor accomplish more? Is there any chance we've got a sensor in the 20-25 MP range and some realtime combination of DPAF, IBIS or the electronic video stabilization we've had on prior rigs is 'spoofing' a higher resolution like some cameras do with multi-shot? (Is that even possible for video?)
If this camera will capture 8K video onboard and right out of the box

Perhaps the camera costs $3-4k _and the external 8K recorder costs the same?_
From the announcement:​​_"The new full-frame mirrorless camera currently under development will fully leverage the advantages of the EOS R System, helping to produce a camera that features high-speed continuous shooting and 8K video recording"_​​Once more, with feeling:​​_"The new full-frame mirrorless camera currently under development will fully leverage the advantages of the EOS R System, helping to produce a camera that features high-speed continuous shooting and 8K video recording"_​​Sounds like they are forming Voltron. Is there any chance that the R5 is just part of an 8K recording setup? ​

Do we need a very special and expensive grip to record this video? (Nikon's top fps on the D850 requires a grip, right?)
Perhaps the camera costs $3-4k but you have to have some hardware tweaking done by Canon to unlock (or make safe) onboard 8k -- possibly for a nontrivial sum?
I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but they didn't actually say the MP count was in the 40s or that this camera will record 8K onboard / out of the box. Any chance they won't deliver on those two specs?

- A


----------



## TMACIOSZEK (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> 'AI Servo AF' is a still imaging mode. Do you mean 'One Shot AF' mode?



Bless your heart.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> There's alot of things that over the years canon has kept to the 1 series line deliberately. heck spot metering at your AF point comes to mind



I think this is a fantastic test when the R5 comes out. If Canon intends this to tide over pros for the next 18 months, we'll see point-linked spot metering. If Canon intends to come out with an R1 anytime in the next couple years, it won't be there. 

PS:
I have to say that I use this a ton on my A7R4s. It's nice on the A92, but to lack it on a camera designed for a different purpose is super frustrating in Canon land. Word to Canon: when you choose a feature to deny lower-end bodies, don't use a feature that is needed in the top-of-the-line specialty cameras, like the 5DSR.


----------



## Max TT (Feb 13, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



So what does this mean for the R6?
Are we going to get another Development Announcement between now and July for the R6.
Or do you think the R6 will be for later in 2020.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

armd said:


> I’m wondering whether this means I can sell my Sony gear? Glad I’ve kept my long EF lenses which are worth virtually nothing. Wish we knew further details and ballpark pricing?




Goodness no. They haven't shown us the fine print and hammered us with the nerf gun. The devil's in the details, and I'd wait to see what they are. 

Selling your house in Chicago because you heard Phoenix was going to be awesome someday is a bit premature. (You just might want to see what Phoenix is like before you sell your house.)

- A


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Honest question from a new to Canon student: do some people really just yank the hood to zoom that one?


There have been many yankers here over the years.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Given Canon's history I'm inclined to say there isn't going to be a 5DV.




Disagree. 5-series will get at least one more refresh. 

You can't make professionals who have used a certain instrument for (in some cases) decades just give it up because 'it's time'. There needs be a generation or two of pro-quality/reliability RF bodies before working photographers let you take the manual transmission out of their daily drivers. Some folks may go willingly (and have already), but some folks know and love the horse that got them here.

- A


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Okay, I've had a night to sleep on it. I'm geeked about what we all think is coming, but *I just have to wonder if what they aren't telling us is a really big deal or not*.
> ...
> I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but they didn't actually say the MP count was in the 40s or that this camera will record 8K onboard / out of the box. Any chance they won't deliver on those two specs?
> 
> - A



AH, I think it's safest to presume there will be some nerf balls thrown in. It's healthy to lower the expectations now. Some other options:
- FPS is governed by a chosen resolution. 20 fps could be 12 bit 20mp, with 7 fps at 45mp 14 bit. 
- AF could kick off past 7 fps
- 8k could be motion jpg and fill a card in 3 seconds
- Heat should be an issue with the teeny tiny body. External recording could be required. Which wouldn't be such a terrible thing, as anyone shooting 8k for anything other than curiosity would likely be doing this anyway. That would lend itself to your part-of-a-system theory.
- They could be using mixed non-serifed fonts and serifed fonts to drive us crazy ($100 to send it back and have them upgrade it to a well designed typography)


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> For what it’s worth, while reading this thread on my phone I was served an ad for the new Nikon D6, and it changed to a JCPenney ad for jeans for really fat women.
> 
> I’m still processing the irony.


Ironying the jeans?


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Nope, that info is unavailable but it'd be a big surprise if it weren't full AE/AF in any AF mode for 12 and 20 fps.




20 fps with all bells and whistles on is not going to happen in this price point. 

Servo? Eye AF? 14 bit RAW? Something will have to give. I'm bracing for a Sony-like max fps table vs. all the bells and whistles you have turned on.

- A


----------



## AlanF (Feb 13, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> I think we might see the RF 300 and 500 primes; they didn't get v3's with the 400 and 600, and what are we putting a 1.4x and 2x converter on? Surely not the 100-500 which would make a f/14 1000mm.


The Sony 200-600mm works very well on the A9 with a 2xTC at 1200mm and f/12.6. (Not that I would want to use it.)


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> AH, I think it's safest to presume there will be some nerf balls thrown in. It's healthy to lower the expectations now. Some other options:
> - FPS is governed by a chosen resolution. 20 fps could be 12 bit 20mp, with 7 fps at 45mp 14 bit.
> - AF could kick off past 7 fps
> - 8k could be motion jpg and fill a card in 3 seconds
> ...



well there's the smaller camera body to consider but there will most likely be something.

I would imagine that all the higher performance options drop down to 12 bit. Consider it takes 4 times less time to process 12 bit than it does 14 bit. Canon has done this alot in the past.

But canon even does that on the 1DX Mark III - electronic shutter goes down to 12 bit. it's really just trying to eek out all the performance you can.

the 8K may be h.265 8 bit - which means that Canon (I could be wrong but I think this is right) only needs to read out the sensor at 10 bit mode which is even faster..8 times faster than 14 bit mode.

it may just scream out 8K RAW because there's no processing at all that happens it's just basically writing as fast as it's little mouse wheels can to the CFExpress card. If it's a processor problem versus a sensor problem to process data, that may just happen.

It may not have C-log because C-log forces 12 bit processing, and that's hard as hell?

there's really alot of bit depth tricks that can be played to help the processing, that really doesn't impact the final result (excluding C-log)

Edit: reading through dpreview (and sar) it's amusing that so many experts deem it impossible because of a)heat b) not a stacked sensor c) because sony hasn't done it yet .. when there's such a mydrid amount of ways to make it happen under what we know of the performance envelope of the 1DX Mark III.

but something magical happened in Canonland - this isn't about relaxing the cripple hammer this is all about creating a new generation of sensors and processors that seriously up Canon's game a ton.

between the sensor and the processor - canon is processing at nearly 1 billion freaking pixels a second.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> I think this is a fantastic test when the R5 comes out. If Canon intends this to tide over pros for the next 18 months, we'll see point-linked spot metering. If Canon intends to come out with an R1 anytime in the next couple years, it won't be there.
> 
> PS:
> I have to say that I use this a ton on my A7R4s. It's nice on the A92, but to lack it on a camera designed for a different purpose is super frustrating in Canon land. Word to Canon: when you choose a feature to deny lower-end bodies, don't use a feature that is needed in the top-of-the-line specialty cameras, like the 5DSR.




I know it's hackneyed to bellyache that 'feature X is on my cellphone but not my 5D', but such is true with this feature.

Go take a picture with your cellphone and tap around a high contrast scene. Exposure changes -- almost like it is metering where you are touching (which is the AF point). 

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> AH, I think it's safest to presume there will be some nerf balls thrown in. It's healthy to lower the expectations now. Some other options:
> - FPS is governed by a chosen resolution. 20 fps could be 12 bit 20mp, with 7 fps at 45mp 14 bit.
> - AF could kick off past 7 fps
> - 8k could be motion jpg and fill a card in 3 seconds
> ...




+1. 12 bit at 20 fps or some aspect of the AF or metering crying uncle and becoming fps limiting seems a certainty to me.

- A


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I know it's hackneyed to bellyache that 'feature X is on my cellphone but not my 5D', but such is true with this feature.
> 
> Go take a picture with your cellphone and tap around a high contrast scene. Exposure changes -- almost like it is metering where you are touching (which is the AF point).
> 
> - A


I find not having this option on mirrorless far more annoying than it was on a DSLR .. maybe it's just the fact that the focus point can be anywhere, and it's definitely just software for where you are adjusting the metering from versus a hardwired AE sensor.


----------



## BillB (Feb 13, 2020)

scottydog said:


> Yup. Noticed this too. Is the R6 vaporware, then?


My guess is that the R5 will be out before the R6. Either that, or the announcement wording was a little sloppy. Canon's R5 announcement was its first announcement of a camera with IBIS.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Okay, I've had a night to sleep on it. I'm geeked about what we all think is coming, but *I just have to wonder if what they aren't telling us is a really big deal or not*.
> 
> Big stuff we still don't formally know yet:
> 
> ...


Ok, I think you really need to loosen up the tinfoil hat...

First, the amount of indignation and anger that it would generate if they announced a camera that does 8K, but forgot to mention until much later that it requires a massively expensive accessory to do this, would be so great that it would probably have been better for them to just not offer 8K.

Next, the electronic/mechanical wizardry that would be required to make a 20MP sensor somehow function as a higher megapixel sensor for video would be so mind boggling that it would probably be much easier to just... You know... Make a sensor that has the proper number of megapixels.

This doesn't even begin to get into what an awful decision it would be for them to reduce the resolution on the long awaited followup to the 5D IV by a third. Talk about backwards progress. Stepping back to 20MP on the 5 series line of cameras when the last camera in the series had 30MP would land with a massive thud. Sure the 1DX maintained the same resolution, but that's much more of a specialized use camera, and even then it at least maintained about the same resolution.

Yes there are some cameras that will run at a higher FPS with a larger battery. If I remember right, even the 5D MkIV will do a higher FPS when running an LP-E6N vs an older LP-E6. This is just a battery power issue. I wouldn't consider this to be a precedent for a camera maker to say "Our camera will do 8K," and then months later come out and say "Well, with this $3000 accessory."

Are there some detractors Canon probably isn't saying in this initial announcement? Sure. There's probably some stupid crop or something to get 8K from the camera. But if they're coming out and saying the camera can do 8K, they can't make too many caveats to that before they begin to lose peoples' trust and loyalty.

The way you are parsing every last word of the announcement for clues and making far fetched assumptions that have no precedent makes it seem like you really need to just chill and go take some photos while we all wait for the full announcement.


----------



## Nelu (Feb 13, 2020)

While everyone is excited about the features showing up in big bold letters (8K, for example) I'm waiting for the fine print exceptions.
This is what kills the joy with all vendors. Canon has no exclusivity for the famous now "Cripple Hammer"

12 frames/second with mechanical shutter. OK, nice, cute! How many will we get with continuous tracking AF?
The sensor readout speed will improve compared to the EOS-R but will it be fast enough to actually see the subject in fast action and not a horrible slideshow like many, many mirrorless cameras, EOS-R included?


----------



## vishaltpt (Feb 13, 2020)

*Let's Talk about the SHORTCOMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )


1. No dedicated buttons for Mode dial , button for switching between photo & video mode, ( in the 360 render of the R5 camera cannot locate either a dedicated ISO button or AF drive button ). *It has less buttons overall as compared to 5D4.* Thumbs down 

2.* Megapixels* : R5 will possibly have 40 megapixels (which is very less in 2020, at least 45 Mpx is a must) ...Nikon released D850 in 2017 with 45 Mpx , now Z7 in 2019 with 46 mpx, A7r4 can do 61 mpx. Canon doesn't have the DR of the Sony's & Nikons. *So R5 lags behind the competition in photo specs.*

3. Possibly the R5 will not have 10 bit internal video like S1H , or record externally 10 bit like Nikon z7, z6. S1H leads in video specs hands down.*So R5 lags in video specs as well.*

4. Possibly No anamorphic lens support like S1H. R5 lags

5. S1H can do dual ISO for cleaner video at higher ISO. R5 lags here too.

6. S1H is NETFLIX approved & imho R5 won't have those specs for NETFLIX approval. R5 lags.

6. can't do ISO 32 & ISO 64 like the Nikon Z7 when you want shallower depth of field in bright light.

7. Canon has not talked about the battery life.*.in all probability it will take fewer shots per battery charge as compared to Canon 5D4.*

8. *so the ONLY saving grace that Canon marketing found for this camera was that to give it 8K !!! ))
if you take out the 8K from the equation what does R5 have that the competition doesn't already offer??? *

Further, imho that* 8K will come with at least a 2x crop & 8 bit 4.2.0 codec.* So basically that will be a gimmick ...not for Pro's. Not sure whether the 4K will be with crop of Full frame either. Also possibly no live AF tracking in 4K or 8K modes. Canon has NOT revealed anything on the codecs. is it 8bit? or 10 bit? or has 12bit Raw like C200. Internal 10 bit in 4K is a must in 2020. what about RAW video codec ?? it doesn't seem to have. *RAW lite a must for video in 2020.*

Canon is solidly lagging behind the competition by at least 2 years in Mirrorless...it is releasing cameras with specs which the competition already released in 2017 on wards.

*So do u think R5 is the ONE which will destroy the competition in 2020 ???*


----------



## Max TT (Feb 13, 2020)

BillB said:


> My guess is that the R5 will be out before the R6. Either that, or the announcement wording was a little sloppy. Canon's R5 announcement was its first announcement of a camera with IBIS.



Love that Canon is flexing its muscles, this R5 is seemingly a master stroke. Still some things to be figured out with pricing etc but so far all seems great.

However, I am more interested in the R6 or whatever is the EOS R mark II. I just need Canon to easy my anxiety, so that I can keep my money in my pocket and not buy a Sony A7iii.


----------



## prodorshak (Feb 13, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Thank you CR guy (and CR team). Your info were accurate. Keep up the good work and don't forget the LEAKERS!


----------



## Max TT (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *Let's Talk about the SHORT COMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )
> 
> 
> 1. No dedicated buttons for Mode dial , button for switching between photo & video mode, ( in the 360 render of the R5 camera cannot locate either a dedicated ISO button or AF drive button ). *It has less buttons overall as compared to 5D4.* Thumbs down
> ...



These are the times you wish there was a dislike button lol


----------



## Chavim (Feb 13, 2020)

CR dude, some info on those other lenses would be awesome.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *So do u think R5 is the ONE which will destroy the competition in 2020 ???*


Yes


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *Let's Talk about the SHORTCOMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )



Worried aren't you?
#SonyTrollPanicking


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *Let's Talk about the SHORTCOMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )
> 
> 
> 1. No dedicated buttons for Mode dial , button for switching between photo & video mode, ( in the 360 render of the R5 camera cannot locate either a dedicated ISO button or AF drive button ). *It has less buttons overall as compared to 5D4.* Thumbs down
> ...


So do you think it's in any way smart to compare a camera that has just had its development announcement to cameras that are already out and reviewed?


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> imho that* 8K will come with at least a 2x crop & 8 bit 4.2.0 codec*


okay I spit out my water at this one.

that would make this a 160MP stills camera.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Disagree. 5-series will get at least one more refresh.
> 
> You can't make professionals who have used a certain instrument for (in some cases) decades just give it up because 'it's time'. There needs be a generation or two of pro-quality/reliability RF bodies before working photographers let you take the manual transmission out of their daily drivers. Some folks may go willingly (and have already), but some folks know and love the horse that got them here.
> 
> - A


You do have a point there. Although not directly comparable, they have done something similar with the 90D / M6 II and there is likely not as much money invested in glass as in a potential R5 / 5DV scenario.


----------



## David_E (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> _Honest question from a new to Canon student: do some people really just yank the hood to zoom that one?_


Doubtful. Certainly not me—I have no use for lens hoods.

_Questar telescope(s)_
1982 Questar Duplex, BB; Zerodur, bought new, factory rebuilt prior to the 2017 solar eclipse.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> okay I spit out my water at this one.
> 
> that would make this a 160MP stills camera.


Oh no you got that one wrong. Pretty sure 8K will be cropped 4K but then upscaled to 8K.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Also, where are all those naysayers saying Canon can't do 8K because of slow chips, unstacked CMOS, primitive process tech, etc.?



They sit in a circle with the Northrups and fill their tears into little amphorae.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> If, and that is what I understand you suggest, Canon decides to pit the R5 against the A9 II, (...)



Actually Canon pits this camera against all the others out there.
Judging from the reactions in this thread, they are very successful in it.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> 2.* Megapixels* : R5 will possibly have 40 megapixels (which is very less in 2020, at least 45 Mpx is a must) ...Nikon released D850 in 2017 with 45 Mpx , now Z7 in 2019 with 46 mpx, A7r4 can do 61 mpx. Canon doesn't have the DR of the Sony's & Nikons. *So R5 lags behind the competition in photo specs.*




So... Three high res cameras that _the R5 is not intended to compete with_ have different resolution specs. I'm impressed. That's strong material. You are totally convincing me of things. Go on.​​(You do realize that a higher-res-than-R5 camera is coming for expressly the purpose of pushing competitive high-res cameras around, right?)​


vishaltpt said:


> Further, imho that* 8K will come with at least a 2x crop & 8 bit 4.2.0 codec.*



If 8k comes with a 2x crop, that means we're getting a ~180 MP sensor. ​
- A


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Pretending it belonged anywhere close to the A9 (...)



Look at the specs. This isn't even pretending. It's owning the A9 II.



.jan said:


> (...) would imply it also belongs close to the 1Dx III (...)



Yeah, that's the ugly part of the news, but also hits home very well.


----------



## Max TT (Feb 13, 2020)

My 2020 Gear and Price Wishlist 
R6 $2000 (TBA)
RP $999
EF 50mm f1.8 $125
RF 85mm f1.8 $600 (TBA)
Tamron EF SP 28-75 f2.8 XR DI $500
Tokina EF 16-28 f2.8 $650

I got to buy everything from scratch, because my equipment was stolen. I have been using an old Canon 60D and some borrowed lenses as temporary measure for the last year while I save money. 

Finally have about $5000 saved. So trying to be smart about what I invest into. Can’t blow my load on the great new RF lenses so will have to pick my spots.

Although, I am curious what you guys think about the Tamron EF SP 28-75 XR DI f2.8 vs the RF 24-105 f/4. Which would you choose. The Tamron is about $500 less difference in price, less reach, but faster aperture.

Will try to find the EF lenses on the used market as well to save money. But I really do hope the R6 body is competitively priced to rival the Z6 and A7III. Fingers crossed.


----------



## iamjhil (Feb 13, 2020)

Hopefully 10bit video. 

So excited. But waiting to find out how it's crippled. It seems too good to be true.


----------



## t4haughton (Feb 13, 2020)

I’m just excited I won’t have to shoot with a Playstation controller! This looks like a real camera. Here’s my full take:

https://wasabiphotography.com/for-photographers/canon-eos-r5-mirrorless-for-wedding-photographers/


----------



## Arod820 (Feb 13, 2020)

8k is cool and all, but 98% of what I shoot is still just HD and the EOS R is all I need in a B-Camera for the foreseeable future. Still waiting on an RF C camera to justify buying the 28-70 F2.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Actually Canon pits this camera against all the others out there.
> Judging from the reactions in this thread, they are very successful in it.




At first, possibly, but the entire '45 MP x 20 fps = it punches back against everything!' notion may not hold water once we see the fine print. 20 fps shooting will not be 1DX3 like -- it just can't be.

I still think Canon is building up a rather segmented/purpose-built/targeted FF mirrorless platform. Until we see what else makes that initial structure of offerings, it's hard to know what products Canon will pit against the competition.

I still think a proper bonkers high-res stills rig is coming (think mirrorless 5DS2) and the R5 is simply the mirrorless 5D5, i.e. their 'pro all-arounder' / jack of all trades.

- A


----------



## Arod820 (Feb 13, 2020)

EverydayPhotographer said:


> Welp, that’s about it. I think 2020 is the year that I start dumping money into the R series. Can’t wait to see what the 100-500 yields image-wise. Is there a link to more info on the lens announcements?



You were wise to hold out this long, I bought my R in October and the price dropped considerably in November.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> (...) the R5 is simply the mirrorless 5D5, i.e. their 'pro all-arounder' / jack of all trades.



Yup. And still it will eat into the sales of all other up-price cameras on the market.
Yes, including the 1D-X MkIII.


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

Max C said:


> My 2020 Gear and Price Wishlist
> R6 $2000 (TBA)
> RP $999
> EF 50mm f1.8 $125
> ...


I am sure you can find RF24-105 cheaper than the $1K you imply. Although I got it as a kit with R from Europe so I cannot provide you with specific examples have you tried to find grey importers? 

I would not touch the specific Tamron according to TDP comparisons:









Tamron AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di LD Lens Image Quality


View the image quality delivered by the Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di Lens using ISO 12233 Resolution Chart lab test results. Compare the image quality of this lens with other lenses.




www.the-digital-picture.com


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Look at the specs. This isn't even pretending. It's owning the A9 II.


I've said if before and I'm happy to repeat myself here: I was not making an argument based on specs here, but referring to where Canon marketing decides to put the Camera.


----------



## Max TT (Feb 13, 2020)

The EOS R hit $1350 plus adapter in December for a short while during an online promotion on B&H. It was tempting! But glad my money is still in my pocket.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Yup. And still it will eat into the sales of all other up-price cameras on the market.
> Yes, including the 1D-X MkIII.


I mean it's not like that's any news. Ever since the first 5D was released the series was cannibalising the 1D/Ds/Dx series to some degree. The price difference was way too big compared to the price difference between the analogue 1 and 3/5 series.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I've seen user of all brands do it with "push-pull" zooms, a/k/a "dust pumps", which is what the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS is. The EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS II, on the other hand, has a zoom ring.



Cool. The RF70-200 does this fine too, though gets a little leveraged near 200. Good for fast deploy or stowage.

(I assume you're using "dust-pumps" for fun - the repair experts seem to say that dues is not a particular issue with this type, and that primes get more dust.)


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I still think Canon is building up a rather segmented/purpose-built/targeted FF mirrorless platform. Until we see what else makes that initial structure of offerings, it's hard to know what products Canon will pit against the competition.


Agreed. It's going to be very interesting to see where the R6 will be put both in terms of specs and ergonomics. I'm worried they're doing the classic Canon thing and taking a 6D series like road but I'm hoping for a "R5 just with a lower resolution sensor" approach.


----------



## NiktoCan (Feb 13, 2020)

LOL - After eating crow, Sony fanboys are still trying to refute this Canon announcement.


----------



## amorse (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> okay I spit out my water at this one.
> 
> that would make this a 160MP stills camera.


160MP? A man can dream can't he? 

I don't know why so many seem to expect a massive crop on 8K - almost like they don't understand that the width of 8K would require at least ~40MP at a 1:1 readout.

But in all fairness, this person has made three posts including this one, and the other two are exploring the shortcomings of the 5DIV in 2016. I see a trend...


----------



## JohnC (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *Let's Talk about the SHORTCOMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )
> 
> 
> 1. No dedicated buttons for Mode dial , button for switching between photo & video mode, ( in the 360 render of the R5 camera cannot locate either a dedicated ISO button or AF drive button ). *It has less buttons overall as compared to 5D4.* Thumbs down
> ...




You sure put a lot of effort in trying to paint a demeaning picture of a camera that doesn't have the specs released yet. Unfortunately the vast majority of it sounds ridiculous.


----------



## mpmark (Feb 13, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



I havent read all the comments but I beleive a THANK YOU is in order to the CR Guy for getting these rumors right well before they are announced! The quality of speculation delivered on this site is notably accurate most of the time! Awesome to have a site that you can rely on!


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

David_E said:


> Doubtful. Certainly not me—I have no use for lens hoods.
> 
> _Questar telescope(s)_
> 1982 Questar Duplex, BB; Zerodur, bought new, factory rebuilt prior to the 2017 solar eclipse.



Amen, fellow Questar enthusiast. Every hood of mine stays in the original box with the sealed manual, warranty docs, and strap, and is never deployed. I invest in good lenses with good coatings, and pay to much of a premium for convenient and compact forms to throw away the benefits with a hood that I associate with amateurs trying to make their lenses look more pro. Reminds me of those engagement ring settings with the circle of little diamond chips to "fool" people into thinking the main diamond is much larger.


----------



## NiktoCan (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *Let's Talk about the SHORTCOMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )
> 
> 
> 1. No dedicated buttons for Mode dial , button for switching between photo & video mode, ( in the 360 render of the R5 camera cannot locate either a dedicated ISO button or AF drive button ). *It has less buttons overall as compared to 5D4.* Thumbs down
> ...


Just another jealous Canon-envy post...


----------



## RunAndGun (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Limited on details even for a development announcement. But hey! All great news! Looking like April release.



I thought the same thing at first, but if you read Canon’s statement again, it sounds like they’re just referring to the cloud service.


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I havent ready all the comments but I beleive a THANK YOU is in order to the CR Guy for getting these rumors right well before they are announced! The quality of speculation delivered on this site is notably accurate most of the time! Awesome to have a site that you can rely on!


I agree! And although this is my #1 favorite site - although not for the rumors but for the technical conversations and the fantastic pictures of some members - I was one that did not believe it and implied it a BS rumor for clicks. 

So I apologize and i congratulate him at the same time!


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Yup. And still it will eat into the sales of all other up-price cameras on the market.
> Yes, including the 1D-X MkIII.



I seriously wonder whether Canon would be bothered if some of the pros switched to a R5. Many will buy the R1 regardless, but if some shift to a lighter form Canon might not care if they are keeping Nikon and Sony away from the pro customers. Devouring the competition while shuffling some customers internally between product lines is a pretty good goal.

The R5 is for customers (or at least for me) who didn't go Sony in part because they couldn't decide between the A7 and A9 (among a few other reasons related to ergonomics).


----------



## mjg79 (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Agreed, except I wish they would let me limit the close up focal range in firmware because 3/4 of the focus range of the RF 35 is closer than a foot and that makes focusing closer and noisier.



Maybe this will be one of the areas where AI and "machine learning" and all that stuff will come into play, it shouldn't be too hard for it to work out if you're photographing flowers, insects or food etc and require the full close up range while landscapes etc it will automatically shift it.


----------



## ThruMyLens (Feb 13, 2020)

bellorusso said:


> Let's speculate on the price. Canon was never too shy to overprice new products a little. But this phenomenal monster must cost a lot more than any non-existing competitors.
> So, $4500-5000?



If it's THAT much, than Canon darn well better come up some a good trade in program vis-à-vis Apple. 

I've got a 5D Mark IV and a few lenses that I'm going to have to figure out work in the plan of financing the R5 and new lenses for the platform.


----------



## Max TT (Feb 13, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Canon Rumor Guy I don’t know who you are. I don’t know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don’t have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you release more info on the EOS R6 that’ll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don’t, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

ThruMyLens said:


> If it's THAT much, than Canon darn well better come up some a good trade in program vis-à-vis Apple.
> 
> I've got a 5D Mark IV and a few lenses that I'm going to have to figure out work in the plan of financing the R5 and new lenses for the platform.


If a lens is good enough for the 5D IV I'm pretty confident it will be dcecent enough for the R5 as well so lenses shouldn't be your main concern imo.

Also in terms of trade in program: Not happening. There's an actual market for anything Apple take back and due to sheer product volumes better and cheaper standardised refurbishing processes.


----------



## Act444 (Feb 13, 2020)

tron said:


> They would make money at least from me. I would upgrade my 5DIV to 5DV and EOS R to EOS R5. In fact I could upgrade both my 5DIV and one of my two 5DsRs to 5DV (I would sacrifice 5Mpixels out of 50 for increased IQ in both shadows and high ISO, more fps and bigger buffer). But that's me. I cannot know about everyone else.



I want to see what a 5D5 would look like as well. As intriguing as the mirrorless technology is, the DSLR is still mature and dependable at this point. At this point I would still choose a similarly configured 5D5 over an R5, especially with this seemingly emerging trend of f7.1 RF lenses.


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Amen, fellow Questar enthusiast. Every hood of mine stays in the original box with the sealed manual, warranty docs, and strap, and is never deployed. I invest in good lenses with good coatings, and pay to much of a premium for convenient and compact forms to throw away the benefits with a hood that I associate with amateurs trying to make their lenses look more pro. Reminds me of those engagement ring settings with the circle of little diamond chips to "fool" people into thinking the main diamond is much larger.


You are a well informed photographer, I gather that. So I was wondering when you posted about hoods, what are your thoughts on dealing with unwanted flare and decreased contrast? I would love if hoods were unnecessary but they also add protection which is a huge benefit in certain situations and in unfortunate accidents. I have definite and specific uses for certain lenses where I never use a hood but for more general use with the rest of my glass I usually do. 
Love to hear your thoughts.


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *Let's Talk about the SHORTCOMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )
> 
> 
> 1. No dedicated buttons for Mode dial , button for switching between photo & video mode, ( in the 360 render of the R5 camera cannot locate either a dedicated ISO button or AF drive button ). *It has less buttons overall as compared to 5D4.* Thumbs down
> ...


Who told you that it will be 40Mpixels and not 45? "will possibly" is a way to state a fact? *TROLL ALERT!*
ALL mirrorless cameras take fewer shots per battery charge. You compare apples with oranges! *TROLL ALERT!*
Panasonic has 24mp and you complain against the possibility that canon has 40! *TROLL ALERT!*
Panasonic takes Approx. 400 Shots so less then 5DmKiv (Which is a very good number but still it is a mirrorless camera so the difference) *TROLL ALERT!*
And last: Possibly, possibly, possibly: *TROLL ALERT!*


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *Let's Talk about the SHORTCOMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )
> 
> 
> Further, imho that* 8K will come with at least a 2x crop & 8 bit 4.2.0 codec.*



It takes a 40MP+ 3:2 sensor to make 8K at 16:9... How in the hell can you 2x CROP a 45MP sensor and still get 8K?! Answer. You Can't. 

Thanks for playing Troll Trivia....


----------



## mjg79 (Feb 13, 2020)

I see a lot of quite wildly different expectations about price. I think two things are worth bearing in mind:

1) Canon tends to think and plan as a whole - so it will likely have to "fit in" to some scheme - if there is am R6 soon for example that allows Canon to keep the R5 higher price and spec.

2) The market these days is more volatile and technology hype drives things. Add in that this is a new mount that Canon is going to want to recoup R&D and I suspect two things follow - it will be very expensive on launch - bloggers, youtube unboxers and let's be honest those of us with GAS who despite all the evidence believe better cameras will improve our photography! - will buy it without quibbling too much on price. Canon would be mad to not milk that cash cow.

Secondly, Canon will rapidly bring it into line with competitor pricing. Sony has been aggressive with pricing its products, keeps older ones available as budget options (a tactic learned from smartphone makers) and just relentlessly keeps bringing down prices on cameras to entice customers. I expect you'll see Canon do likewise, it might start out higher but Canon won't have a situation persist long where it is being undercut substantially by Sony's A7R IV. Just look at the L lenses in RF mount, unquestionably expensive on introduction but already many of them are down to similar prices or just slightly higher than the Sony GM equivalents. A little patience will likely be rewarded with this new camera I think!


----------



## Canon1966 (Feb 13, 2020)

I hope the R5 will include the adapter. I'd like to keep using my EFs. I can't justify changing to RF glass; too expensive.


----------



## cayenne (Feb 13, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'm a stills shooter and it is a big draw for me.




I've never shot on a camera with any sort of "tilty-flippy" screen before...articulating or otherwise.

I shoot stills and video with my trusty 5D3......and never knew I was missing anything.

Can you tell me the use cases for a tilty-flippy screen that I've been missing?

TIA,

cayenne


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *So do u think R5 is the ONE which will destroy the competition in 2020 ???*



Uhh... yes. It will. Even with all your made-up "shortcomings"


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> I've never shot on a camera with any sort of "tilty-flippy" screen before...articulating or otherwise.
> 
> I shoot stills and video with my trusty 5D3......and never knew I was missing anything.
> 
> ...


Don't know any! It is nice though to turn it back for protection when you put your camera in the bag


----------



## unfocused (Feb 13, 2020)

I think it will be interesting to see how they price this in comparison to the 5DV. Do they bring it in at under the 5DV to lure more people into the R system or do they price it above the 5DV to take advantage of pent up demand and maybe also boost flagging DSLR sales? Or, do they price them exactly the same and let the market sort out which is in more demand?

I would not be surprised to see a simultaneous release of both bodies.


----------



## eat-sleep-code (Feb 13, 2020)

I was hoping they would have a delivery date and a little more specs listed. I have a trip to Japan scheduled for the end of May and was wishfully hoping they were going to announce it with April delivery date or something. *sigh*. Guess my 5D Mark III will be my camera for that trip and I will likely get this later in the Fall.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 13, 2020)

Looks like I amcoming late to the party ... 23 pages already.

Sounds all extremely positive!

BUT: When do we get to know what the other 5 RF lenses will be?
Does the non-existing info mean we can put a wish list and Canon builds what we want .... ;-) ....

Here is my wish list:
- RF 14-28 f/2
- RF 24 f/1.2
- RF 135 f/1.8


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Cool. The RF70-200 does this fine too, though gets a little leveraged near 200. Good for fast deploy or stowage.
> 
> (I assume you're using "dust-pumps" for fun - the repair experts seem to say that dues is not a particular issue with this type, and that primes get more dust.)




I seem to recall the old 100-400L (I) actually did dust-pump, but Uncle Rog at LensRentals doesn't believe modern external zoomers are a problem.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204431077047189505
(pan down to his two responses)

- A


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

tron said:


> Don't know any! It is nice though to turn it back for protection when you put your camera in the bag


There's tons. I regularly find myself using the app to figure out composition when I have my 5DIV on a tripod in very low or high or leaning over a railing positions and I hate it cause it's really slow and just an overall terrible experience. And I'd say a tilty-flippy screen would help in about 60-80 percent of these situations.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

slclick said:


> You are a well informed photographer, I gather that. So I was wondering when you posted about hoods, what are your thoughts on dealing with unwanted flare and decreased contrast? I would love if hoods were unnecessary but they also add protection which is a huge benefit in certain situations and in unfortunate accidents. I have definite and specific uses for certain lenses where I never use a hood but for more general use with the rest of my glass I usually do.
> Love to hear your thoughts.



Good points. If I'm on the sidelines with a big white, I'd leave the hood on for equipment protection (even injury reduction), and more so on a sunny afternoon. But for non-teles the scenarios in which a hood makes a difference are rare, and I'd lose more shots by adding clumsiness than by diminishing contrast. 

The RF 70-200 at a soccer game is probably not going to get a hood unless I know I'm unable to locate myself favorably on a sunny day. 

I certainly don't cut the petals off an ultrawide! ;-)

Contrast loss can be significantly addressed in post processing.

Everything's a compromise.

My favorite cringe is for the guy who has his hood on backward while shooting.


----------



## antolalto (Feb 13, 2020)

I am SO excited. This is the camera I wanted. I would buy it immediately.

The problem is that I want it* NOW*. March, max... Definitely can't wait until September.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

tron said:


> Who told you that it will be 40Mpixels and not 45? "will possibly" is a way to stay a fact? *TROLL ALERT!*
> ALL mirrorless cameras take fewer shots per battery charge. You compare apples with oranges! *TROLL ALERT!*
> Panasonic has 24mp and you complain against the possibility that canon has 40! *TROLL ALERT!*
> Panasonic takes Approx. 400 Shots so less then 5DmKiv (Which is a very good number but still it is a mirrorless camera so the difference) *TROLL ALERT!*
> And last: Possibly, possibly, possibly: *TROLL ALERT!*




Thx man -- I wasn't sure. I thought we were in trouble for a minute there. 

- A


----------



## unfocused (Feb 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> I've never shot on a camera with any sort of "tilty-flippy" screen before...articulating or otherwise.
> 
> I shoot stills and video with my trusty 5D3......and never knew I was missing anything.
> 
> ...


I find it very handy for shooting above the crowd. For example, when I want a different angle on the coach talking to his players during a time out.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> I see a lot of quite wildly different expectations about price. I think two things are worth bearing in mind:
> 
> 1) Canon tends to think and plan as a whole - so it will likely have to "fit in" to some scheme - if there is am R6 soon for example that allows Canon to keep the R5 higher price and spec.
> 
> ...



I haven't seen any guesses under $3000, nor many over $4000.

My hope is $4999 with 24-70 f2.8, which I'm deferring for that reason.


----------



## sanj (Feb 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> I've never shot on a camera with any sort of "tilty-flippy" screen before...articulating or otherwise.
> 
> I shoot stills and video with my trusty 5D3......and never knew I was missing anything.
> 
> ...


Low angle. High angle. Macro.


----------



## RobbieHat (Feb 13, 2020)

slclick said:


> You are a well informed photographer, I gather that. So I was wondering when you posted about hoods, what are your thoughts on dealing with unwanted flare and decreased contrast? I would love if hoods were unnecessary but they also add protection which is a huge benefit in certain situations and in unfortunate accidents. I have definite and specific uses for certain lenses where I never use a hood but for more general use with the rest of my glass I usually do.
> Love to hear your thoughts.


Different user responding but do a lot of shooting and have to determine which times I take the hood off and when I leave it on. I will leave it on when shooting in high contrast situations (mid-day waves) or low sun angle situations that might induce flare (near direct sun angle in morning or evening). I find them useful especially on my 70-200 and 100-400 in these situations. My wider lenses I typically don't leave the hood on or take it with me as they don't tend to help much. 

I have also been fortunate that in at least one situation the hood took the brunt of a whack on the ground when I was scrambling up a hill and slipped. Glad it was on at it saved the front element on some rocky ground!


----------



## sanj (Feb 13, 2020)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Where are all those brilliant graphic designers & photo editors on the other thread who were convinced the R5 leaked photo was a bad Photoshop job and therefore the CR3 rumor was pure, unadulterated BS?


Where are all those brilliant people who said Canon does not need IBIS??


----------



## RobbieHat (Feb 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> I've never shot on a camera with any sort of "tilty-flippy" screen before...articulating or otherwise.
> 
> I shoot stills and video with my trusty 5D3......and never knew I was missing anything.
> 
> ...


Low angle and high angle are the desired use cases for me. I have an XT3 (sacrilege!) for travel and love the tilt ability. It is not fully articulating which I wish it were. Very hard to compose, focus, etc. on a very low angle (inches off the ground) without a tilt screen at a minimum. 

A fully articulating screen that can be flipped upside down would be great as well as it is nice to be able to mount your camera upside down on a tripod extension arm for easier low angle and flipping the screen would allow you to compose without the image being upside down!


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> I've never shot on a camera with any sort of "tilty-flippy" screen before...articulating or otherwise.
> 
> I shoot stills and video with my trusty 5D3......and never knew I was missing anything.
> 
> ...



Pictures (often of my kids) taken from ground level. The Nikon tilt screen is more limited but faster for this when shooting horizontally.


----------



## YuengLinger (Feb 13, 2020)

sanj said:


> Low angle. High angle. Macro.


And you can let the camera hang to your hip with the flip screen angled so you can see what you are shooting, then surreptitiously take street photos with a Rolleiflex type of perspective. (As long as you don't have an L-bracket on it!)


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Can you tell me the use cases for a tilty-flippy screen that I've been missing?




A bunch! Off the top of my head:

General shooting: reach over crowds and still have the LCD facing your eyes. Even take the shot by touching the screen.​​Outdoor landscape / macro: when you are on a tripod in a tough position, it's much easier on the back to not have to stoop down to see the screen.​​Outdoor landscape / macro: angling the LCD is pretty nice when the sun is putting glare on it. There are very few good LCD sun shades out there, so I'm always futzing with a piece of cardboard I cut out for my 5D3 and mount with gaffer. A tilty-flippy could do wonders here to simply get the reflection out of my eyes, make the screen easier to look at, etc.​​​​Street: take photos not actively looking at subjects through the VF. Shoot it like a TLR, I guess? (edit: Doggone it, someone beat me to this. )​​Selfie-cam for stills or video: you can do more by yourself without a PC link to a monitor, without a cell phone link, etc. and your eyes are looking at the camera rather than at some other display. Probably a godsend for vloggers, unboxers and YouTubers.​
I'm sure this forum has a dozen more uses of an articulating screen.

- A


----------



## joestopper (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> Probably unpopular opinion:
> 
> I must say, as someone who has used the Sony 200-600 (which maxes out at f6.3 and is internal zoom), the 100-500 doesn't particularly impress me. Unless it's significantly cheaper, but I seriously doubt it will be. I suppose they're trying to keep the lenses smaller, like the RF 70-200.



It might impress in other departments like weight, compactness while maintaining same quality as 100-400mkii and as bonus 100mm more reach.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> I haven't seen any guesses under $3000, nor many over $4000.
> 
> My hope is $4999 with 24-70 f2.8, which I'm deferring for that reason.




I wouldn't count on that f/2.8. Canon tends to dump a 24-105L in with almost every non-gripped FF kit. The 24-105L is also the lens bolted on to the R5 in the promo shots.

Some 3rd parties kit different glass with bodies, but I want to say (foggy memory) it runs afoul of Canon's authorized reseller rules. And Canon doesn't want to overpopulate the used market with high end f/2.8 zooms -- they want you to buy a new one.

- A


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> I've never shot on a camera with any sort of "tilty-flippy" screen before...articulating or otherwise.
> 
> I shoot stills and video with my trusty 5D3......and never knew I was missing anything.
> 
> ...



Worms eye view shots, ground level macro, held above head with live view, tripod with trigger....lots!


----------



## ThruMyLens (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> If a lens is good enough for the 5D IV I'm pretty confident it will be dcecent enough for the R5 as well so lenses shouldn't be your main concern imo.



I agree - with the exception that #adaptorlife just isn't as fun...



> Also in terms of trade in program: Not happening. There's an actual market for anything Apple take back and due to sheer product volumes better and cheaper standardised refurbishing processes.



Exactly my point. Don't make the R5 price point more than $3500.00.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> My favorite cringe is for the guy who has his hood on backward while shooting.




I don't do it often, but it does happen occasionally.

Sometimes I do it if I'm using a CPL with a deep hood (like my 70-200 or 100L macro). Changing from portrait to vert spikes the CPL function, so I reverse the hood so I can quickly turn the CPL ring keep the sky tamed without slowing down. Neither of my deeper hooded lenses have the CPL window feature, though (I somewhat liked it with my 100-400L II rental last year).

Another weird reason to reverse it: hiking, of all things. Weather may change, if it's a short hike you aren't carrying a bag to stow the hood in, etc. 

- A


----------



## joestopper (Feb 13, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> Am I the only one that hates Canon's flip out screens?



The flip out is amazing feature for many ... I am glad it has ... gives you all the flexibility


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Feb 13, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> Am I the only one that hates Canon's flip out screens?



I am not a fan of flip out screens, but they seem to be here to stay. I can certainly find a use for them, but can't help think the screen won't take a fall as well as one built in.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

sanj said:


> Where are all those brilliant people who said Canon does not need IBIS??



Now that we are routinely looking at cameras with over 30MP, more stabilization is required for routine stills. For video, stabilization is required at any resolution. Stabilization could be tripods, motorized gimbals, Lens IS, or IBIS. Obviously tripods negate the other 3 and vice-versa.

While IBIS is certainly a nice luxury to have on a 20-something MP sensor, it's not necessary. But I can't shoot a damn thing on my 5DSR without either a tripod or at minimum Lens IS (which negates a lot of lenses that dont have IS) or shoot at very very high shutter speeds.

So now that we are looking at a basically a 5D replacement with 45MP, IBIS is an absolute MUST, because you have to have the flexibility to shoot handheld and not worry about shake at that resolution like you do with the 5DSR.


----------



## TMACIOSZEK (Feb 13, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> Am I the only one that hates Canon's flip out screens?



Curious as to why?
Personally, I love the flip out screen.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I wouldn't count on that f/2.8. Canon tends to dump a 24-105L in with almost every non-gripped FF kit. The 24-105L is also the lens bolted on to the R5 in the promo shots.
> 
> Some 3rd parties kit different glass with bodies, but I want to say (foggy memory) it runs afoul of Canon's authorized reseller rules. And Canon doesn't want to overpopulate the used market with high end f/2.8 zooms -- they want you to buy a new one.
> 
> - A


Yeah, Canon doesn't kit $2,300 lenses with bodies and even if they did I don't see it coming in at under $5,000 for both.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Amen, fellow Questar enthusiast. Every hood of mine stays in the original box with the sealed manual, warranty docs, and strap, and is never deployed. I invest in good lenses with good coatings, and pay to much of a premium for convenient and compact forms to throw away the benefits with a hood that I associate with amateurs trying to make their lenses look more pro. Reminds me of those engagement ring settings with the circle of little diamond chips to "fool" people into thinking the main diamond is much larger.



The hood on the 100mm macro is sized in such a way that I can brace it on my fist and my fist on the ground/wall/tree and have things at MFD perfectly in focus. It also keeps twigs and sticks away from the front element 

The hood on the MP-E (it exists, google it, it's awesome!) is mainly there to keep the flash out of the front element.


----------



## David_E (Feb 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> _Can you tell me the use cases for a tilty-flippy screen that I've been missing?_


Can’t say you’re missing anything because maybe you don’t need such a display. One of my uses is camera on the ground for macrophotography. 6D Mk II, 180mm macro, Platypod, ball-head.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 13, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> If it lacks the 1DX III AF-ON button functionality, it is actually a big let-down. It is typical especially in the smartphone industry - you receive almost ideal smartphone, just to find out one crucial parameter actually sucks. Then you find it at a different model (here comes R6 for e.g.), but then you miss what you liked about a previous one ....



Do you really expect all the 1DX III features for half the price?


----------



## JoeDavid (Feb 13, 2020)

eat-sleep-code said:


> I was hoping they would have a delivery date and a little more specs listed. I have a trip to Japan scheduled for the end of May and was wishfully hoping they were going to announce it with April delivery date or something. *sigh*. Guess my 5D Mark III will be my camera for that trip and I will likely get this later in the Fall.


I’m in a similar situation with a trip to the Alps most of June. I have a Fuji GFX 50s that I may be taking instead of Canon gear now. The rumored 45mp is close enough that I’d have preferred the Canon for the lens diversity that I have. The GF lenses are still pretty limited.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 13, 2020)

ThruMyLens said:


> [..]
> Exactly my point. Don't make the R5 price point more than $3500.00.



Canon could to a stepped pricing model, introduce it for $4500, rebate a month later, drop to $3500 after announcing the R6.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Feb 13, 2020)

Max C said:


> Canon Rumor Guy I don’t know who you are. I don’t know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don’t have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you release more info on the EOS R6 that’ll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don’t, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.



Did Craig kidnap your sexy, leggy, blonde daughter or kill the dog given to you as a gift by your late wife?


----------



## hkenneth (Feb 13, 2020)

I knew this would happen after I bought a new house...


----------



## ThruMyLens (Feb 13, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Canon could to a stepped pricing model, introduce it for $4500, rebate a month later, drop to $3500 after announcing the R6.



I see that as an unlikely scenario, but yes - possible. 

I'm gloriously happy with my 5D Mark IV for my current purposes. It will be an exercise in self-discipline to see if I can wait until "refurbished" R5s starts showing up in the Canon Store. Black Friday could epic this year.


----------



## amorse (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> At first, possibly, but the entire '45 MP x 20 fps = it punches back against everything!' notion may not hold water once we see the fine print. 20 fps shooting will not be 1DX3 like -- it just can't be.
> 
> I still think Canon is building up a rather segmented/purpose-built/targeted FF mirrorless platform. Until we see what else makes that initial structure of offerings, it's hard to know what products Canon will pit against the competition.
> 
> ...


I kind of think they're going to make some reasonable compromises in order to make this work - I could see dropping the bit rate or dropping AF entirely on high burst speeds. I don't think having 8K be external recording would be a dealbreaker either, but I'll bet it's without AF either way. I mean the 1DXIII has AF up to 30 fps at 5.5K raw, but loses AF beyond that frame rate, so they've shown they're still willing to accept compromise or two to get those video specs even higher. 

That's not to say I think Canon is going to purposefully cripple the camera, I just think delivering all of that is a very tall order based on what we've seen so far. Canon has moved forward leaps and bounds recently, but there are still limitations on what's possible with today's tech, and frankly, some of the stuff they're including in the R5 were considered near impossible even just a couple weeks ago. 

I'd be fine with those compromises to be fair.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> I'm gloriously happy with my 5D Mark IV for my current purposes. It will be an exercise in self-discipline to see if I can wait until "refurbished" R5s starts showing up in the Canon Store. Black Friday could epic this year.




I could see myself finally retiring my 5D3 for an R5.

It ticks all the boxes I personally was waiting for:

More detail
More burst (comically so)
A 50mm prime that does not suck and can reliably focus wider than f/2 exists on that mount
IBIS
5-series-ish thumbwheel
Pretty nice things my 5D3 never had: On chip ADC, DPAF, touch, tilty-flippy (ditto), MF lens assist tools through the viewfinder
So it's all there for me short of a proper chunky 5D body and control set. I am absolutely interested in this camera.

But I doubt I'd be an early adopter and pay initial asking. We have the money but I have to balance my desire to have new rig against my desire to take my current rig on a plane somewhere. Everything is a tradeoff. 

- A


----------



## Nick L (Feb 13, 2020)

Many years ago Canon produced the A1 a film Camera that was way ahead of the competition, and many pro's used the A1 as it was so good.

Just maybe Canon have decided the time is right to make a ground breaking camera again, I wait to buy one !


----------



## Bob Howland (Feb 13, 2020)

Any guesses about the purpose of the "Rate" button on the upper left corner of the back?

I ordered my 5D, 40D and 5D3 on the days they were introduced. Each of them solved a compelling photographic problem at the time. I don't think I'll do that with this body, although I am VERY interested in it,


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> From Canon USA Press Release:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the wait won't be long for a lot of details. At least we should know the type of cards and probably confirm the resolution. It will be interesting to see how fast and accurate the autofocus is. I hope it doesn't hunt and lose focus like the R. Otherwise that 500mm zoom won't be of much use to birders.



I take "preview" to suggest it will be behind a 1 inch thick glass case with thermal lasers wrapped around it and a squad of secret service agents on point. If people will actually be able to touch this thing and really examine it, I'll be amazed.


----------



## FitzwaterPhoto (Feb 13, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Checks most of the boxes for me. I’m not optimistic that I’ll be owning one of these in 2020 but I guess it could happen. The marketing speak on 8k is pretty fuzzy so I don’t think that’s settled yet. I don’t particularly want/need 8k so its fine with me if they sample down. Can’t wait to see some demos.


I have yet to have a single client ask me for 4k so that is the least interesting feature to me. 120fps at 1080 will get me what I want. I am really hoping for the 45MP though. I mix studio work and event photography - this might be the best all around camera ever made!


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

Bob Howland said:


> Any guesses about the purpose of the "Rate" button on the upper left corner of the back?


The camera needs constant re-affirmation that it IS a good camera, so the "Rate" button allows the user to routinely coddle it by mashing the button as you shoot. Based on the amount of positivity you offer it, the R5 will shoot at faster and faster frame rates, eventually topping at 100fps while shooting in 32K at 20 bit RAW.

...or it might just be the old Rate button that lets you tag keeper images as you shoot.

Not sure. It's either one or the other


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

ThruMyLens said:


> Exactly my point. Don't make the R5 price point more than $3500.00.


You have no idea how much I hope you’re right here.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> If you have:
> 
> A Digic 8 or newer processor
> The DLO profile loaded into the camera (5 for R, 3 for RP, M6II, M50)
> ...


Thanks for replying. What do you mean by “3 for RP?” Three of what?


----------



## Laslen (Feb 13, 2020)

The product listing (so far) says "Up to 12fps Mechanical" which "up to" hints to me there are probably some catches. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how they differentiate it from the 1DX3, with crippled or no AF at the highest burst rates.

They need to give people a reason to still buy the 1DX3. They are a business, after all. It also mentions nothing about the 20fps electronic, yet.


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 13, 2020)

Is IBIS going to work with IS only for RF glass? I got that impression from one of the videos. To work with IS there may be a higher data rate required that EF glass does not support.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 13, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Thanks for replying. What do you mean by “3 for RP?” Three of what?


The maximum number of profiles you can store in the camera.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> The maximum number of profiles you can store in the camera.


I’ll fiddle with my settings today and see what I can achieve.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> They need to give people a reason to still buy the 1DX3.




Spec sheets alone don't capture images. The 1DX3 does a jillion things that I'm sure (we will find out) the R5 cannot or will not. Besides the obvious build quality difference, 1DX3 will surely have menu options, customization features, communication protocols, and a greater degree of tuneability. 

In short: The R5 may turn out to have more horsepower under the hood, but it probably doesn't drive as comfortably, as responsively, as reliably, and as efficiently.

I think the 1DX3 will do just fine.

- A


----------



## unfocused (Feb 13, 2020)

Bob Howland said:


> Any guesses about the purpose of the "Rate" button on the upper left corner of the back?



I need a rate button. On the 1Dx I programmed the button with the "key" icon to rate photos. It saves an incredible amount of time if, during lulls in the action (halftime, etc.), you can run through your photos and identify the ones that might be keepers. Sometimes after a key play, if I think I got something good, I immediately review the images to pick out the frame that looks best. I saves a lot of time later one. You can program the bar on the R to rate photos, but like everything with that damn bar it's very finicky and not reliable.


----------



## dba101 (Feb 13, 2020)

Heath Walker said:


> Great news of course, but does look like Canon is trying to buy time.


In which way? Buying time from who?


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> There's tons. I regularly find myself using the app to figure out composition when I have my 5DIV on a tripod in very low or high or leaning over a railing positions and I hate it cause it's really slow and just an overall terrible experience. And I'd say a tilty-flippy screen would help in about 60-80 percent of these situations.


I was half-joking! Of course there are tons but - Murphy's Law - I didn't happen to need it since I got my EOS R. Funny thing is that I had needed it a few times when I was using 5D4 !!!


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I need a rate button. On the 1Dx I programmed the button with the "key" icon to rate photos. It saves an incredible amount of time if, during lulls in the action (halftime, etc.), you can run through your photos and identify the ones that might be keepers. Sometimes after a key play, if I think I got something good, I immediately review the images to pick out the frame that looks best. I saves a lot of time later one. You can program the bar on the R to rate photos, but like everything with that damn bar it's very finicky and not reliable.


Yes that's what I sometimes do when I shoot birds.


----------



## cayenne (Feb 13, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> OK. here is a question. If you didn't know the name for this camera and someone gave you the specs(as we know them) and told you it was the flagship(1dx) equivalent. Would you be impressed or disappointed? And as such. What do you think this will mean for a future R1?I mean crap!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could they possibly improve enough over this to release an actual R1.




Well, if you likely wait a year and are willing to pony up $2K+ more than this R5, you may find out....


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

dba101 said:


> In which way? Buying time from who?




I agree with Heath, actually.

This sort of announcement is really good news, but the way Canon is delivering it is somewhat cloudy on specifics and comes across as a somewhat _defensive _move to me. The camera appears to be a beast, surely, but for some reason they don't seem to want to lean into any specifics and really wallop the competition here. It reminds me of the 200-400 1.4x -- Canon was glad to talk it up publicly but they clearly weren't ready to commit to a deployment timetable.

I'm expecting an R5 this year, of course, but I presume Sony is about to announce a major product (say an A7S3 or A7IV). That might have prompted what we saw yesterday. It's not a panicked move by Canon and R5 has surely been underway for a long period of time, but perhaps this was a bit ahead of when they ideally would have wanted to unveil it.

I could be wrong.

- A


----------



## cayenne (Feb 13, 2020)

Traveler said:


> Why do you even turn it off? I keep turned it on even when it’s resting on a shelf and it doesn’t eat anything from the battery



Hell, I don't even turn it off when I"m changing lenses....


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 13, 2020)

This has been a very interesting night for me. I woke after maybe 2 hours sleep and couldn't resist taking a peek at the thread. Big mistake. I didn't get back to bed until 6 AM - I couldn't believe it. So now it's "unwatch" time or I won't have a life. Will this camera be for me?? Quite possibly but there is so much more to know first.

Jack


----------



## BillB (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> I haven't seen any guesses under $3000, nor many over $4000.
> 
> My hope is $4999 with 24-70 f2.8, which I'm deferring for that reason.


Canon is playing a home game, because of its substantial market share. A big part of its strategy will be to convince Canon DSLR owners to go mirrorless and buy the R5. They want to make sure that Canon owners don't abandon ship, and that DSLR (and R or RP owners) are ready to buy. Getting Sony or NIkon owners to buy an R5 is icing on the cake.

My guess is that the R5 will be enough to convince Canon owners to stay with Canon unless price becomes an issue. The same holds true in convincing Canon ownwers that it is time to get an R5, except that the challenge is to convince owners that the R5 is enough better than what they have now to be worth the price. All in all, Canon may be looking for volume, and price accordingly. I would be surprised if the price is much less than $3500 or more than $3800.


----------



## Bob Howland (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> The camera needs constant re-affirmation that it IS a good camera, so the "Rate" button allows the user to routinely coddle it by mashing the button as you shoot. Based on the amount of positivity you offer it, the R5 will shoot at faster and faster frame rates, eventually topping at 100fps while shooting in 32K at 20 bit RAW.
> 
> ...or it might just be the old Rate button that lets you tag keeper images as you shoot.
> 
> Not sure. It's either one or the other


I hope it can be reprogrammed. I don't think I need either function.


----------



## H. Jones (Feb 13, 2020)

BillB said:


> I would be surprised if the price is much less than $3500 or more than $3800.



I strongly lean towards the initial price being about $3900. That was the price of the 5DS R when it was released, which was the 5D pricepoint(roughly $3500 range) with a few hundred added on cost due to the higher level features. Also would go to battle with the A9II while undercutting the price, and maybe give Canon room to eventually release a $6000 R1.


----------



## FramerMCB (Feb 13, 2020)

Chaitanya said:


> Starting new savings for this body. Also Tony Northrup will be eating s*** today.


Ah...he's gone over to the dark side, shooting Sony Mk IV. ;-) 
The funny thing is, he uses the R for shooting all his video stuff, at least for YouTube, as he likes/loves the DPAF and the flippy/tilty panel...


----------



## approximatt (Feb 13, 2020)

*chef kiss* those are some spicy specs.

There’s no way I’ll be able to afford it, but nice to see that Canon is not being complacent and can drop a bomb like this when they want to.


----------



## FramerMCB (Feb 13, 2020)

I wonder if this doesn't get the same AF touchpad controller introduced on the flagship 1DX Mk III? Looks sort of like it maybe but can't completely tell from the darkness of the photo above.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

FramerMCB said:


> I wonder if this doesn't get the same AF touchpad controller introduced on the flagship 1DX Mk III? Looks sort of like it maybe but can't completely tell from the darkness of the photo above.




Discussed at length before. The answer appears to be no.

- A


----------



## FramerMCB (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Discussed at length before. The answer appears to be no.
> 
> - A


Ah. Too bad. I thought 1 rumor was it would at least get the joystick controller...


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 13, 2020)

shunsai said:


> Unfortunately, that's what I'm expecting too. Will be great if it's $3499 or less, but I'm thinking $3899 or more.


How many would buy at $3499. And would not buy at $3999. Damn few I would guess. 
Canon, don’t read this.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

FramerMCB said:


> Ah. Too bad. I thought 1 rumor was it would at least get the joystick controller...




The R5 has *a* joystick, but not the 1DX3 AF-On touch sensitive fancypants one.

- A


----------



## BillB (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Spec sheets alone don't capture images. The 1DX3 does a jillion things that I'm sure (we will find out) the R5 cannot or will not. Besides the obvious build quality difference, 1DX3 will surely have menu options, customization features, communication protocols, and a greater degree of tuneability.
> 
> In short: The R5 may turn out to have more horsepower under the hood, but it probably doesn't drive as comfortably, as responsively, as reliably, and as efficiently.
> 
> ...


Also, we don't know how the R5 AF will compare to the IDXIII.


----------



## DarkPhalanx (Feb 13, 2020)

I am curious about just one useful feature that I saw on the EOS R but hasn't been mentioned concerning the EOS R5.

The sensor cover.


----------



## BillB (Feb 13, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> How many would buy at $3499. And would not buy at $3999. Damn few I would guess.


If the choice you have is standing pat with what you have price can make a difference.


----------



## KT (Feb 13, 2020)

BillB said:


> Canon is playing a home game, because of its substantial market share. A big part of its strategy will be to convince Canon DSLR owners to go mirrorless and buy the R5. They want to make sure that Canon owners don't abandon ship, and that DSLR (and R or RP owners) are ready to buy. Getting Sony or NIkon owners to buy an R5 is icing on the cake.
> 
> My guess is that the R5 will be enough to convince Canon owners to stay with Canon unless price becomes an issue. The same holds true in convincing Canon ownwers that it is time to get an R5, except that the challenge is to convince owners that the R5 is enough better than what they have now to be worth the price. All in all, Canon may be looking for volume, and price accordingly. I would be surprised if the price is much less than $3500 or more than $3800.


It will be priced the same as the 5DSR when it first came out in June 2015, that would be around $3900 for the body.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 13, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> This has been a very interesting night for me. I woke after maybe 2 hours sleep and couldn't resist taking a peek at the thread. Big mistake. I didn't get back to bed until 6 AM - I couldn't believe it. So now it's "unwatch" time or I won't have a life. Will this camera be for me?? Quite possibly but there is so much more to know first.
> 
> Jack


I'm not wasting my time looking at all this stuff now, there is no constructive point. I will relook at camera bodies later in the year when the dust settles and *all* the specs are out not just the headliners, crop modes, AF limitations etc etc. Meanwhile there is so much other cool stuff out there like the BENQ SW321C, PaulCBuff Link, QNAP TVS's, affordable 'home' Cat6 networking switches, CamRanger 2. 

We are in the middle of a major camera transition phase I agree but everything I shoot with now works perfectly and I *need* for nothing, certainty nothing I have seen will make my images more valuable or more compelling, so other tools that can save me time are far more valuable. Besides, I still have yet to use an EVF I can look through for hours and not get tired of whereas an OVF doesn't phase me at all.


----------



## sanch (Feb 13, 2020)

I am certain it won't be 4k 120 fps full frame. The processing technology has not advanced that far yet. 

Also, it will have 8k with 30 fps but clearly at a massive compromise. It is a little hard to believe that they will do these with 40 mpx in that body when the 1dx or the canon cine cameras cannot do that. And Panasonic with that massive S1H also couldn't do it. And Sony with their sensors couldn't put more than 24 mpx for 20 fps in their A9 II. 

The rumors sound too good to be true in my opinion


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Spec sheets alone don't capture images. The 1DX3 does a jillion things that I'm sure (we will find out) the R5 cannot or will not. Besides the obvious build quality difference, 1DX3 will surely have menu options, customization features, communication protocols, and a greater degree of tuneability.
> 
> In short: The R5 may turn out to have more horsepower under the hood, but it probably doesn't drive as comfortably, as responsively, as reliably, and as efficiently.
> 
> ...


Though I like the MP numbers implied with 8k that really is the only thing I'd take from an R5 over a 1DX III.


----------



## dog8food (Feb 13, 2020)

My video question is:
Will the same video featues be available in cropped and uncropped modes, because, for example, the R can't even do 1080 60p in crop mode (nor 120p). 

Furthermore, with IBIS, will digital stabilization still be an option?

I actually enjoy the additional reach crop mode+digital stabilization gives my lenses.

Time will tell.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 13, 2020)

I'm betting that this will be cheaper than we expect. I have no idea exactly how much.

But Canon is still trying to build up a user base of RF camera users. They've shown with this camera that they're going to throw down the gauntlet with regard to specs, I'll bet they do it on price too. Don't forget the manufacturing costs and complexity of building a mirrorless is less than a DSLR, so I'm not sure you can directly compare the cost of past flagship DSLRs to what this will sell for. They showed that they were willing to undercut everyone else with the RP, even though granted that's probably more of an entry level full frame camera than anyone else has.

The industry is still in the midst of a big mirrorless transition, I'm sure Canon wants to lock as many people as they can into the RF camera and lens ecosystem now because it will drive future camera and lens sales for decades to come. They might be willing to go low on the price of this to get people to come on board. Then again, the whole industry is struggling right now, so maybe they can't afford to. It's really hard to say.


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> To get cinema 8K out of 3:2 sensor requires a minimum of around 40MP. Canon's 1-Series are currently at 20 MP.


Line doubling.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> I am curious about just one useful feature that I saw on the EOS R but hasn't been mentioned concerning the EOS R5.
> 
> The sensor cover.


A metric f*ckton of features haven't been mentioned. Did you really expect them to elaborate on that one when they don't even disclose the sensor resolution?


----------



## TMACIOSZEK (Feb 13, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> I am curious about just one useful feature that I saw on the EOS R but hasn't been mentioned concerning the EOS R5.
> 
> The sensor cover.



Interesting point. Would be disappointing if they remove it now that we've become used to it.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> The product listing (so far) says "Up to 12fps Mechanical" which "up to" hints to me there are probably some catches. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how they differentiate it from the 1DX3, with crippled or no AF at the highest burst rates.


It's pretty obvious that 1DX3 has a larger share of processing power allocated for autofocus performance. There is no need for any intentional "crippling".


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 13, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> I expect these teleconverters will be, by some margin, the best Canon or anyone has ever made.
> 
> Look at the Sony FE teleconverters - putting aside the normal questions around Sony's appalling quality control etc - they are the best there is, exceptional image quality *and* almost half the size of the current Canon EF lenses. Teleconverters really appear to be one of those areas vastly improved by the wider, shallower mount and therefore proximity to the sensor.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how they work with the RF-EF adapters and thus EF lenses - might be a nice way to keep bringing people into the system while allowing them to keep using some of their EF glass.


Canon certainly has the lens chops to design and build the best ever TCs.


----------



## TMACIOSZEK (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> The product listing (so far) says "Up to 12fps Mechanical" which "up to" hints to me there are probably some catches. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how they differentiate it from the 1DX3, with crippled or no AF at the highest burst rates.
> 
> They need to give people a reason to still buy the 1DX3. They are a business, after all. It also mentions nothing about the 20fps electronic, yet.



Well, "up to" may also be in reference to your shutter speed. if your shutter speed isn't fast enough to accommodate 12fps then you're not going to achieve that.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

sanch said:


> I am certain it won't be 4k 120 fps full frame. The processing technology has not advanced that far yet.
> 
> Also, it will have 8k with 30 fps but clearly at a massive compromise. It is a little hard to believe that they will do these with 40 mpx in that body when the 1dx or the canon cine cameras cannot do that. And Panasonic with that massive S1H also couldn't do it. And Sony with their sensors couldn't put more than 24 mpx for 20 fps in their A9 II.
> 
> The rumors sound too good to be true in my opinion


rumors? it was announced. 8k video.

and it's not that hard. the 1DX III does 5.5k60p which is right around the same as 8k30p in terms of bitrate.


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> For what it’s worth, while reading this thread on my phone I was served an ad for the new Nikon D6, and it changed to a JCPenney ad for jeans for really fat women.
> 
> I’m still processing the irony.


Taking advantage of the new slimming mode of the R5.


----------



## masterpix (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I'm pretty sure that's bingo for anyone who thought the phrase f/7.1L was going to happen
> 
> View attachment 188644
> 
> ...


7.1 with 7 steps IS and IBIS? who cares it is 7.1 anymore?


----------



## joestopper (Feb 13, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> I got the ProMedia gear bracket for my R and it is perfect. The RRS and Kirk brackets do not allow proper use of the flip out screen. The PMG does allow almost full range with just a bit of limit. Miles better than the competition.



I have the ProMedia L-bracket, too. To my mind the best available for the R.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> OK. here is a question. If you didn't know the name for this camera and someone gave you the specs(as we know them) and told you it was the flagship(1dx) equivalent. Would you be impressed or disappointed? And as such. What do you think this will mean for a future R1?I mean crap!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could they possibly improve enough over this to release an actual R1.



The R1X will have nearly identical ergonomics to the 1DX line. So it will be a much larger body with a much larger battery, able to balance much better with longer Great White glass. The 1DX3 and R5 we assume will share the same singular Digic x CPU. Until now, the 1DX line has always had TWO CPUs plus a third for AF. A 1RX could return to this (at least perhaps with say TWO Digic X or Maybe Digic X2 by that point) and offer Servo AF capabilities never before thought possible with a data throughput like a 6 foot diameter pipeline. Crazy stuff like 30fps in FF 14bit RAW at 24MP with zero blackout, zero lag EVF and servo AF. God only knows. But there is plenty room to grow and rest assured Canon will make a never before seen monster when that camera comes out


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## vishaltpt (Feb 13, 2020)

tron said:


> Who told you that it will be 40Mpixels and not 45? "will possibly" is a way to stay a fact? *TROLL ALERT!*
> ALL mirrorless cameras take fewer shots per battery charge. You compare apples with oranges! *TROLL ALERT!*
> Panasonic has 24mp and you complain against the possibility that canon has 40! *TROLL ALERT!*
> Panasonic takes Approx. 400 Shots so less then 5DmKiv (Which is a very good number but still it is a mirrorless camera so the difference) *TROLL ALERT!*
> And last: Possibly, possibly, possibly: *TROLL ALERT!*



& Who confirmed you that it is 45 Mpx & not 40 or even 31 Mpx!!

clearly Canon has not said anything on Mpx in the announcement & no mention of codecs, ISO improvements , DR improvements or bit depth for video either. *What kind of Development Announcement was that ?? 8K ?? *


It looks like Canon marketing may have been forced (or even preempted) to announce *this 8K wonder of R5 camera* as they may have got news that SONY might announce something big with A7S3 or A74.

& why are you assuming 8K will be 1:1 readout on R5 ? to have at least 40 mpx as your assumed resolution 


& How can canon let R5 spit out 20 frames( at say 45 mpx ) when the 1DX3 can do the same at 20 mpx ?? *clearly there is a catch here.*

Canon has a history of crippling lower end cameras so that they don't hurt the sales of Higher end one's.

& battery life will make a hell of a difference to the 5D4 pro's if canon wants to switch them to R5. It is major. *For 5D4 PRO's to switch to R5 it has to be significantly better than 5D4 in every aspect*.Period.

RF glass is expensive as hell so business wise one has to justify switching from EF to RF is well worth it.

& Don't just be a blind canon fanboy; look at the competition...look Fuji is coming to beat you & so is Panasonic. The majority of high Mpx 5Ds crowd i know has already switched to Fuji GFX50 & the video crowd have already switched to S1H. 
Canon needs to deliver a very heavy punch with R5 both in photo & video to win back those who have left or are about to leave...but that looks like a tall task.


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## mpmark (Feb 13, 2020)

tron said:


> I agree! And although this is my #1 favorite site - although not for the rumors but for the technical conversations and the fantastic pictures of some members - I was one that did not believe it and implied it a BS rumor for clicks.
> 
> So I apologize and i congratulate him at the same time!



I too thought the 45mp with 12/20fps was baloney but I am glad I was wrong, with canon's history of marginal releases this was a curve ball so easy to think it was fake. But amazing Canon rumors got that right! The guy literately puts the site on the line and doesn't get enough credit for getting it right.


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> The R1X will have nearly identical ergonomics to the 1DX line. So it will be a much larger body with a much larger battery, able to balance much better with longer Great White glass.




Right, because the R5 is big and chunky like the 5D-- oh wait, that never happened. 

In all seriousness, you're _probably_ right about the R1, but it would not surprise me one bit if even that battleship when on a small diet.

- A


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## mpmark (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> I seriously wonder whether Canon would be bothered if some of the pros switched to a R5. Many will buy the R1 regardless, but if some shift to a lighter form Canon might not care if they are keeping Nikon and Sony away from the pro customers. Devouring the competition while shuffling some customers internally between product lines is a pretty good goal.
> 
> The R5 is for customers (or at least for me) who didn't go Sony in part because they couldn't decide between the A7 and A9 (among a few other reasons related to ergonomics).



I dont think it matters when you are literally choosing between 2 cameras from the same company, Canon wins either way.


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

FramerMCB said:


> Ah...he's gone over to the dark side, shooting Sony Mk IV. ;-)
> The funny thing is, he uses the R for shooting all his video stuff, at least for YouTube, as he likes/loves the DPAF and the flippy/tilty panel...



I hear Canon made a special firmware update for Tony Northrup's EOS R. After it installs, the camera will stop working and boot into a hyperlink on the touchscreen that will take him to the CanonRumors website B&H photo link to pre-order an R5 for his special price of $5000 (what he swears this camera will cost). All he has to do is click the Middle Finger icon using the EOS R touchbar and he gets free next day shipping. After that his YouTube channel will loop a video 24/7 of him just saying "Don't listen to anything I say. It's all crap anyway"


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## AEWest (Feb 13, 2020)

With all this talk about lenses and potential camera prices, not much has been said about the sensor itself. Will it be a stacked sensor like the patent Canon published on Dec 21, 2017? The press release talks about an all new sensor (probably not just because it is likely 45 mp). 
As an example the A9 has a stacked sensor that allows it to shoot 20fps.


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## joestopper (Feb 13, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Unlikely. Canon has a track record of mass pre-producing cameras.
> They built 2.400.000 copies of the 5D MkIV before they started shipping.
> 
> Canon will for sure build close to seven digit copies of the R5
> ...



Either you are kidding or you are entirely wrong: Building 2.4 million units before shipping a single one? -> NO WAY!
This is against any production line logistics. If there were any productions flaws they would have to dump 2.4 million units. Not even to speak of cash flow ...

20 thousand make sense ...


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Right, because the R5 is big and chunky like the 5D-- oh wait, that never happened.
> 
> In all seriousness, you're _probably_ right about the R1, but it would not surprise me one bit if even that battleship when on a small diet.
> 
> - A



Eh... we don't have dimensions yet but that R5 image seems more robust than the EOS R, closer to the current 5D. The 1RX wont have the exact sale dimensions, but it's gonna be pretty similar. I've gotten very used to my DX2 and I really like how it feels particularly with buky glass like the 85L 1.4. That lens feels very different on my 5D3


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## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> & Who confirmed you that it is 45 Mpx & not 40 or even 31 Mpx!!
> 
> clearly Canon has not said anything on Mpx in the announcement & no mention of codecs, ISO improvements , DR improvements or bit depth for video either. *What kind of Development Announcement was that ?? 8K ?? *
> 
> ...


You continue your Bull! And who told you troll that it will be 40? And isn't 40 greater than Panasonic's 24mp?
Why you dislike 40 so much but you are OK with 45?
Who told you troll that here will not be a 5D5 ?
Doesn't Panasonic have a rating of 400 per battery? Much less than 5D4.

Why you dislike it before it's real?

Goodbye TROLL!
P.S
By the way which camera do you have that is better than anything else?


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## sulla (Feb 13, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Though I like the MP numbers implied with 8k that really is the only thing I'd take from an R5 over a 1DX III.


plus the RF 50 1.2 lens. can't have that on the 1D, unfortunately.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 13, 2020)

masterpix said:


> 7.1 with 7 steps IS and IBIS? who cares it is 7.1 anymore?


Anyone who isn't taking a photo of something that's standing perfectly still.


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## David_E (Feb 13, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> _The 1DX3 does a jillion things that I'm sure (we will find out) the R5 cannot or will not. Besides the obvious build quality difference,_


How is this difference obvious to you? Have you seen the two models side-by-side, or done a tear-down? Among others in my Canon collection are an M5 and a 5D IV. I don't see any difference between the two in fit and finish. I'm sure the 5D is designed to take more punishment, but I've been dragging the little M5 through swamp, field, and forest in nature photography for nearly two years and it shows no signs of deterioration.


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Eh... we don't have dimensions yet but that R5 image seems more robust than the EOS R, closer to the current 5D.




Seems more robust, I agree, but its not discernibly bigger. These are mockups from our CR peers (the animated gif has some parallax/projection shenanigans going on due to a slightly different positioning of the cameras):





There may be subtle beefing up in areas, and the R5 may have gotten thicker front to back (which can certainly make a grip feel chunkier), but I'm seeing way more of a 'one body size for all price points' sort of A7 move here than I am a step towards a 5D size.

- A


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## BillB (Feb 13, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I dont think it matters when you are literally choosing between 2 cameras from the same company, Canon wins either way.


It matters to Canon if one of the cameras you are choosing between is one you have already.


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## koenkooi (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Seems more robust, I agree, but its not discernibly bigger. These are mockups from our CR peers:
> 
> View attachment 188667
> View attachment 188670
> ...



The RP is a lot smaller than the R, and the R6 rumour said the R6 and share the EG-E1.


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## sanj (Feb 13, 2020)

Traveler said:


> Why do you even turn it off? I keep turned it on even when it’s resting on a shelf and it doesn’t eat anything from the battery


Ah. Good point. Must inform Canon. They can remove it and make camera still better.


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## BillB (Feb 13, 2020)

AEWest said:


> With all this talk about lenses and potential camera prices, not much has been said about the sensor itself. Will it be a stacked sensor like the patent Canon published on Dec 21, 2017? The press release talks about an all new sensor (probably not just because it is likely 45 mp).
> As an example the A9 has a stacked sensor that allows it to shoot 20fps.


Canon always say a new camera has a new sensor, but given the performance specs, the R5 would seem to be something very different from anything Canon has done.


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## sanch (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> rumors? it was announced. 8k video.
> 
> and it's not that hard. the 1DX III does 5.5k60p which is right around the same as 8k30p in terms of bitrate.


 Yes but the compromise is not stated. I feel there will be a massive compromise. 8K in that body is too far fetched.


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## padam (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> There may be subtle beefing up in areas, and the R5 may have gotten thicker front to back (which can certainly make a grip feel chunkier), but I'm see a 'one body size for all price points' sort of A7 move here, and that disappoints me.
> 
> - A


Yes, you can see on the video that it's gotten thicker, because of the IBIS and advanced video features. The silver mount protrusion is just a tiny bit less.

The high-megapixel model might use a similar body to the R5. but the rest should be different.


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

David_E said:


> How is this difference obvious to you? Have you seen the two models side-by-side, or done a tear-down? Among others in my Canon collection are an M5 and a 5D IV. I don't see any difference between the two in fit and finish. I'm sure the 5D is designed to take more punishment, but I've been dragging the little M5 through swamp and forest in nature photography for nearly two years and it shows no signs of deterioration.




From a build perspective, I think it's obvious by reputation and (I guess) a higher published shutter life as some proxy metric for toughness and durability. 

But surely that reputation is earned. War correspondents and arctic tundra wildlifers generally are not toting M5s.

But I defer to the actual 1-series folks here. I do not own one.

- A


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Seems more robust, I agree, but its not discernibly bigger. These are mockups from our CR peers:
> 
> View attachment 188667
> View attachment 188670
> ...


I think honestly the thickness of it is what is most important. That's what affects my grip the most and I suspect the same for most others


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

tron said:


> By the way which camera do you have that is better than anything else?



Clearly which ever one the men in the little white coats leave in his padded cell...


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I think honestly the thickness of it is what is most important. That's what affects my grip the most and I suspect the same for most others




Thickness _and_ width matters. A wider back is more room for dedicated buttons and controls. 

Speaking of controls, do we know if that's a proper 5D sized wheel or more like a 90D sized one?

- A


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## sulla (Feb 13, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Anyone who isn't taking a photo of something that's standing perfectly still.


well, you can say that of the 100-400 4.5-5.6 as well. 400 @ f/5.6 is very nearly the same aperture as 500 @ f/7.1, both 71-72mm in diameter. As far as I see, the 100-500 would probably be f/5.6 up until 400mm, so I think of the 100-500 basically as a 100-400 with an 100mm extended zoom range.
7.1 is 2/3 of a stop slower than 5.6, so its not that dramatic, sensors with better ISO performance will cope with that quite well.
AF performance will be a bit worse with narrower apertures, but i think newer AF system will cope with that very well, too.

I wonder if the 100-500 will work with the new extenders. Probably yes, as the 100-400 does (I believe).
200-1000 f/9-14... Well, I'm not sure dual pixel AF systems can cope with that, but that might be nice for shooting the moon.


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## amorse (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> & Who confirmed you that it is 45 Mpx & not 40 or even 31 Mpx!!
> 
> clearly Canon has not said anything on Mpx in the announcement & no mention of codecs, ISO improvements , DR improvements or bit depth for video either. *What kind of Development Announcement was that ?? 8K ?? *
> 
> ...


I think we can safely assume at least a 40MP (or more) sensor and near 1-1 readout for 8K because 8K needs 7680 pixels in width. On a full frame camera (2x3 aspect ratio) that means a vertical 5129 pixels to keep a 2x3 aspect ratio, or 39.3MP. If the sensor is 39.3MP then it is a 1:1 read out full width of the sensor. Any bigger and then we can start discussing what would likely be a small crop (for 1:1 readout) unless the sensor has WAY more resolution than 40MP. Even if it had the resolution of an a7R IV, 8K would require over 80% of the sensor width to do a 1-1 readout. For context, the EOS R crop in 4k used just over 50% of the sensor width to film 4K, hence the big crop.

In other words, the sensor will be at least 40MP, and if there is a crop, it will be a lot less than what was on the EOS R unless this camera has more than 60MP in resolution. We don't need Canon to disclose the sensor resolution to figure that out - it should be pretty straight forward.


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Though I like the MP numbers implied with 8k that really is the only thing I'd take from an R5 over a 1DX III.



Would you actually shoot in 8K? I guess there may be SOME instances where you want (for example) a landscape pan or something where you really want to milk every bit of detail and then you compress it to 4k or 1080p in post, but I can't ever see myself just shooting in 8K routinely if not hardly ever. My head is spinning just imaging the data file sizes for 1 min of 24p video. It's great Canon is doing it, because it opens the doors for other specs that are much more usable (like 4k120).


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Thickness _and_ width matters. A wider back is more room for dedicated buttons and controls.
> 
> Speaking of controls, do we know if that's a proper 5D sized wheel or more like a 90D sized one?
> 
> - A



No one knows, but i think someone asked the same question earlier, thinking the wheel looked smaller than a 5D


----------



## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

AEWest said:


> With all this talk about lenses and potential camera prices, not much has been said about the sensor itself. Will it be a stacked sensor like the patent Canon published on Dec 21, 2017? The press release talks about an all new sensor (probably not just because it is likely 45 mp).
> As an example the A9 has a stacked sensor that allows it to shoot 20fps.



IMO, this camera needs fast sensor readout to be competitive. It's one of the best things going for the a9 series and enables many shooters to use the electronic shutter in 90% of situations. If Canon can make this happen, too, it will be huge.


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Though I like the MP numbers implied with 8k that really is the only thing I'd take from an R5 over a 1DX III.




Same. I just shoot stills. 8K only gets me excited in that it's a stills res bump for the 5D line (if you think the R5 is the mirrorless version of the 5D5, which I kinda do).

- A


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## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Thickness _and_ width matters. A wider back is more room for dedicated buttons and controls.
> 
> Speaking of controls, do we know if that's a proper 5D sized wheel or more like a 90D sized one?
> 
> - A



EXT. NIGHT - CANON HQ, JAPAN

Ahsanford is protesting. He holds a sign and SCREAMS LOUDLY, gesticulating. The sign reads "I LIKE BIG BODIES AND I CANNOT LIE."


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## mpmark (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Limited on details even for a development announcement. But hey! All great news! Looking like April release.



I was looking for the date, how did you figure April?


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

navastronia said:


> IMO, this camera needs fast sensor readout to be competitive. It's one of the best things going for the a9 series and enables many shooters to use the electronic shutter in 90% of situations. If Canon can make this happen, too, it will be huge.




In this thread alone, I've heard comments that the R5 has to punch its weight against both the A9 and the A7RIV.

That seems nuts. What if it is intended for neither market segment? An R1 is coming, and we presume a super high detail RF body is coming as well. 

Perhaps the R5 is just the new 5D and it just needs to hold its own versus the A7III / upcoming A7IV.

- A


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## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> In this thread alone, I've heard comments that the R5 has to punch its weight against both the A9 and the A7RIV.
> 
> That seems nuts. What if it is intended for neither market segment? An R1 is coming, and we presume a super high detail RF body is coming as well.
> 
> ...



Actually, I agree with you. I'm getting ahead of myself. You're right, this is an A7 competitor, not an A9 competitor.


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## Ozarker (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> In this thread alone, I've heard comments that the R5 has to punch its weight against both the A9 and the A7RIV.
> 
> That seems nuts. What if it is intended for neither market segment? An R1 is coming, and we presume a super high detail RF body is coming as well.
> 
> ...


Yes. It is strange that people say one camera needs to punch above another camera. All it needs to do is satisfy the target demographic. There's entirely too many people that are trying to "keep up with the Jones'" that would be better off just learning how to shoot with what they already have. Specs do not a decent photo make. Can't buy talent. For some, it's all about the arms race.


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## cayenne (Feb 13, 2020)

slclick said:


> You are a well informed photographer, I gather that. So I was wondering when you posted about hoods, what are your thoughts on dealing with unwanted flare and decreased contrast? I would love if hoods were unnecessary but they also add protection which is a huge benefit in certain situations and in unfortunate accidents. I have definite and specific uses for certain lenses where I never use a hood but for more general use with the rest of my glass I usually do.
> Love to hear your thoughts.



I've never had a need to use any hoods either so far with any of my lenses, and most all are EF L ones.....

I've not had a flare I didn't like....I've never contemplated needing "less" contrast in a shot...and well, I try to be careful when using them on the camera, and if something happens, well, that's what insurance is for, eh?



C


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## cayenne (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I think it will be interesting to see how they price this in comparison to the 5DV. Do they bring it in at under the 5DV to lure more people into the R system or do they price it above the 5DV to take advantage of pent up demand and maybe also boost flagging DSLR sales? Or, do they price them exactly the same and let the market sort out which is in more demand?
> 
> I would not be surprised to see a simultaneous release of both bodies.



Personally...I don't see a "5D5 DSLR" coming to market....but that's just me.


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## cayenne (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> There's tons. I regularly find myself using the app to figure out composition when I have my 5DIV on a tripod in very low or high or leaning over a railing positions and I hate it cause it's really slow and just an overall terrible experience. And I'd say a tilty-flippy screen would help in about 60-80 percent of these situations.



What "app" are you talking about?


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

amorse said:


> I think we can safely assume at least a 40MP (or more) sensor and near 1-1 readout for 8K because 8K needs 7680 pixels in width.



or 8192.

but no, the person you responded to think it's a 2x crop so we're getting a freaking awesome 180MP camera


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## transpo1 (Feb 13, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Yes. It is strange that people say one camera needs to punch above another camera. All it needs to do is satisfy the target demographic. There's entirely too many people that are trying to "keep up with the Jones'" that would be better off just learning how to shoot with what they already have. Specs do not a decnt photo make. Can't buy talent.



But someone at Canon thinks specs are pretty important, specifically _video_ specs, on a _stills camera_, no less. It seems that finally, Canon and all their infallible market wisdom have decided that 4K and now 8K video are pretty important, and they do have to compete in that arena, even on their stills bodies. 

I, for one, can't wait to see how this plays out, and will be excited if the video specs actually live up to the promises. If so, I'll be absolutely delighted to buy my first Canon body in years and make use of all those EF lenses (adapted) of course. If it's good enough, I may even buy a few RF lenses, and I lot of other people will, too. 

So this is a huge announcement, and not just because of the scroll wheel  It's going to keep a ton of people from jumping to / buying into other mirrorless systems.


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I think it will be interesting to see how they price this in comparison to the 5DV. Do they bring it in at under the 5DV to lure more people into the R system or do they price it above the 5DV to take advantage of pent up demand and maybe also boost flagging DSLR sales? Or, do they price them exactly the same and let the market sort out which is in more demand?
> 
> I would not be surprised to see a simultaneous release of both bodies.




I've always loved this idea as it's a minimum buyers' remorse move.

Canon to buyer: 'Cards on the table. Here is what your price point gets for the next 3 years. Note that the next time we refresh this price point, it might only be mirrorless. CHOOSE.'

But Canon wants to sell us a 5D5 _and_ an R5, or an R5 and another R model. So as much as I personally might want this, I don't think Canon will do it.

- A


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## cayenne (Feb 13, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> And you can let the camera hang to your hip with the flip screen angled so you can see what you are shooting, then surreptitiously take street photos with a Rolleiflex type of perspective. (As long as you don't have an L-bracket on it!)




Yeah, that's the thing, I always keep an "L" bracket on my cameras...at least my 5D3 always has one on it.....RRS version.

Maybe they'll come up with some sort of new L bracket that works with this R5 tilty-flippy....

I hope so, because I love having my L bracket to go back and forth from tripod, to mono pod, to even my motion controlled set ups, in either landscape/format as needed, with a quick release arca Swiss type clamping system.....

If it doesn't allow for flippy screen movement, I guess I'll just bear with it, but I'd hate not being able to use something they give me, but "L" bracket is much higher on my priority list of things used to date.

C


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## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

transpo1 said:


> So this is a huge announcement, and not just because of the scroll wheel  It's going to keep a ton of people from jumping to / buying into other mirrorless systems.




Which is exactly why we got this nutty announcement with some-but-not-all details and a creepy 'Nooooo we're not blowing smoke about the R5 -- SEE? HERE IS A 3D RENDERING. IT'S SO REAL. COMING AT SOME POINT. STUDY THIS INCESSANTLY INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO SONY'S IMMINENT ANNOUNCEMENT.'

- A


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## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

Thought this was a fair take article and makes good points.









Why Did Canon Just Now Decide to Wake Up?


Last night we got our first official glance at Canon's vision for their future in the R5 development announcement, and it looks to finally be an example




petapixel.com


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## privatebydesign (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Would you actually shoot in 8K? I guess there may be SOME instances where you want (for example) a landscape pan or something where you really want to milk every bit of detail and then you compress it to 4k or 1080p in post, but I can't ever see myself just shooting in 8K routinely if not hardly ever. My head is spinning just imaging the data file sizes for 1 min of 24p video. It's great Canon is doing it, because it opens the doors for other specs that are much more usable (like 4k120).


No I would never shoot 8k, I only mentioned 8k because that dictates a >40mp sensor. I use 20mp sensors and am quite happy to stitch landscapes when I want more MP and an effective larger sensor, what that doesn't give me is more detail in one shot for moving subjects.

I don't do much video at all but what little I have done the end user specified 1080, so as far as I am concerned even 4k is overkill.


----------



## dwarven (Feb 13, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> I am curious about just one useful feature that I saw on the EOS R but hasn't been mentioned concerning the EOS R5.
> 
> The sensor cover.



Something like that could potentially be implemented with software, if it doesn't ship with the camera. I agree, that's one of my favorite things about the R.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 13, 2020)

David_E said:


> How is this difference obvious to you? Have you seen the two models side-by-side, or done a tear-down? Among others in my Canon collection are an M5 and a 5D IV. I don't see any difference between the two in fit and finish. I'm sure the 5D is designed to take more punishment, but I've been dragging the little M5 through swamp, field, and forest in nature photography for nearly two years and it shows no signs of deterioration.


I couldn't say because it's not my quote!


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 13, 2020)

sulla said:


> plus the RF 50 1.2 lens. can't have that on the 1D, unfortunately.


I don't care, I am not beholden to a 50 f1.2.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 13, 2020)

transpo1 said:


> But someone at Canon thinks specs are pretty important, specifically _video_ specs, on a _stills camera_, no less. It seems that finally, Canon and all their infallible market wisdom have decided that 4K and now 8K video are pretty important, and they do have to compete in that arena, even on their stills bodies.
> 
> I, for one, can't wait to see how this plays out, and will be excited if the video specs actually live up to the promises. If so, I'll be absolutely delighted to buy my first Canon body in years and make use of all those EF lenses (adapted) of course. If it's good enough, I may even buy a few RF lenses, and I lot of other people will, too.
> 
> So this is a huge announcement, and not just because of the scroll wheel  It's going to keep a ton of people from jumping to / buying into other mirrorless systems.


There is no doubt that advancements are important to Canon and many users. However, there are those who scream for features that will never use them and see the spec wars on the same level as rooting for a sports team. There are those who will bitch and moan about Canon this and Sony that who don't own, don't plan to own, will never own, and wouldn't know how to use if they did own. They just like to perpetually cry about specs and scream "rah rah team." While there are those who will use 8k, there are others who just want to be able to say their camera can do it. Posers.


----------



## Sparky (Feb 13, 2020)

Comparing the video to my Eos R, it looks a little bigger overall across all dimensions. Personally, I hope it is as some of the buttons are too small on the R and a more 5D4 size body would work well for me. I am really glad the back looks DSLR like, that makes me want to buy it alone!


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Feb 13, 2020)

I did a quick size comparison between R & R5 using the mount as a reference. The R5 is taller with the difference being between the bottom of the body to the bottom of the mount. The R5 is also wider from the mount to the right edge of the body.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

I usually give dpreview the benefit of the doubt because it's a hard job writing articles that are balanced.

But the way they reported on this development announcement leaves all credibility of balance at the door. No, not at the door, they tossed it into the trash.

They decided to ignore canon explicitly stating that they record 8k video, and latch onto canon explaining the benefits of downsampling 8k to 4k as some weird theory that canon actually shoots 8K and downsamples to 4K and that's what canon means and that it really can't record 8k video. Even though Canon states you can extract high resolution stills from the video footage (hard to do without the video file).

No to mention Canon states: "helping to produce a camera that features high-speed continuous shooting and *8K video recording*". How much more clearer does one have to make it?

So in their mind that counts it up as being possibly fake 8K video and thus the "8k" in quotes in their title and their two paragraphs of misgivings about 8K video recording.

If you can follow that train of logic, I'm really impressed.

This is where dpreview gets its bad reputation from. Because my first thought was; if this was Sony - they'd be screaming it from the rooftops, holding a parade, and we'd see 5 articles discussing it by now how class leading, innovative it was, etc. It could be a totally unfair assessment, but then again, this article from them was stupid.

Even EOSHD wrote a better piece on the announcement and he's been hammering Canon continuously for the last 5+ years.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Thought this was a fair take article and makes good points.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_
"Since the RF mount is still a closed system, there is no reliance on third-party manufacturers to help make that transition easier. Canon decided to do it all on their own, and I argue have done an excellent job setting up that system for success once there was a camera body there to take advantage of it."_

That's a wretched take. "Canon decided to do it all on their own" with lenses was said like it was the tough road no one expected them to follow. A new prioprietary mount to flummox the 3rd parties of the world was a certain goal of the platform -- not some tough choice they had to make.

And I love how third parties ease the blow for a new mount transition like Sony's approach is the established best way. Sony had to do what it did because it didn't have EF to call upon. So Canon puts out an adaptor that works perfectly on RF and that's the brave, hard road to take? 

- A


----------



## tron (Feb 13, 2020)

I like 5D4 size (and functionality of course) but when I want to squeeze a camera in a bag that has a 5DsR with 500LII attached I prefer to take EOS R with me (unless I will take the baby: 200D+10-18 and 18-55 or 15-85). But if I want a FF because the landscape opportunities may be more than the birding ones then FF it is.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No I would never shoot 8k, I only mentioned 8k because that dictates a >40mp sensor. I use 20mp sensors and am quite happy to stitch landscapes when I want more MP and an effective larger sensor, what that doesn't give me is more detail in one shot for moving subjects.
> 
> I don't do much video at all but what little I have done the end user specified 1080, so as far as I am concerned even 4k is overkill.


I mainly shoot on 20MP as well. Perfectly suitable for 90% of things so far as I can see. Like you, I do far less video work but enjoy it and hoping I get to do more. That said, I have definitely seen a marked improvement shooting in 4K and downconverting to 1080 rather than natively at 1080. This is especuially gorgeous on the EOS R when you use the 10bit 422 out. But the 1080 is no slouch. I think as long as you have a computer that can adequately handle 4k footage for grading and editing, you're fine. The nice thing though is that I can even take a relatively weak, entry level MacBook Pro and get seamless playblack and edits in 4K provided I recorded it in ProRes. Apple really created the absolute perfect Codec there. 8K is just getting into crazy territory for me and I imagine most others.


----------



## dwarven (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I usually give dpreview the benefit of the doubt because it's a hard job writing articles that are balanced.
> 
> But the way they reported on this development announcement leaves all credibility of balance at the door. No, not at the door, they tossed it into the trash.
> 
> ...



There's also the strange phenomenon of Sony fanboys being absolutely atrocious. It seems like it's been that way ever since Chad Warden and the PS Triple.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> This is where dpreview gets its bad reputation from. Because my first thought was; if this was Sony - they'd be screaming it from the rooftops, holding a parade, and we'd see 5 articles discussing it by now how class leading, innovative it was, etc.




Politics in the US* often resembles the politician being Sony and the mob of supporters being DPR -- backing up whatever their potentate says or crying bloody murder if you call him out.

*on both sides I might add. You'd think I'd being referring to you know who, but the other side can be equally full of zealots in an election year.

- A


----------



## Sporgon (Feb 13, 2020)

Wow, so much excitement ! Canon should slip Sony a few quid for reviving what was becoming a very mature market .


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Thought this was a fair take article and makes good points.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think he's close.. but a little off the mark.

the 5D Mark IV, 1DX Mark II was hampered because the DIGIC SoC didn't have 4K encoding because at the time of creation TI who Canon was using back then (no idea on now) didn't have an effecient h.264 encoder that would not heat your coffee at the same time as encoding video.

that's why it processed video in MJPEG because that's simply streaming off the sensor, and writing out consecutive JPEG files, it's also why the HDMI ports were only 1080p because the encoded video stream inside of DIGIC was still only 1080p. That was the BIG deal with DIGIC 8, finally having 4k h.264 encoders in the SoC.

..

we know there's a much faster sensor that came out already because we saw it on the M6 Mark II - it can do 30 fps at 18MP with full AE/AF and 16 fps at 32.5MP with full AF/AE. that's using old generation DIGIC 8 - so the previous limitations, weren't just solely on the processor but also on the sensor. Otherwise, we wouldnt have seen the M6 II knock it out of the park since it still used DIGIC 8 that the EOS Rfor instance used. The EOS R certainly can't do 16 fps like the M6 II can, so it's certainly sensor speed limited.

1DX Mark III has two things going for it - a much faster sensor and ALSO a much faster DIGIC.

This allowed canon to really supercharge things. but it's really a combination of both not just the processor. If the sensor can't read and ADC convert fast enough and without using too much power, then there's no point in a faster DIGIC.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> _"Since the RF mount is still a closed system, there is no reliance on third-party manufacturers to help make that transition easier. Canon decided to do it all on their own, and I argue have done an excellent job setting up that system for success once there was a camera body there to take advantage of it."_
> 
> That's a wretched take. "Canon decided to do it all on their own" with lenses was said like it was the tough road no one expected them to follow. A new prioprietary mount to flummox the 3rd parties of the world was a certain goal of the platform -- not some tough choice they had to make.
> 
> ...


I kinda read that a bit differently. Canon did that because they CAN. Sony can't. Obviously Canon doesn't like Sigma and others honing in. Gonna happen eventually anyway. I took the tough road as meaning that Canon put all their efforts into lens design first (because they can) while settling for good-but-not-mind-blowing cameras to intro the system while they (as the article later discusses) figured out their CPU issues, which clearly they have. And it was a tough road considering all the flak they got for making these mind blowing lens designs (like the 28-70 f2) and then having (what some argued were) comparably "Meh" MILCs to put them on initially. I'm ultimately curious to hear how Canon solved the CPU design issues. The leap from Digic 8 to Digic X is orders of magnitude. Did they create a new fab process in house? Did they contract out to a third party like TSM or the sort? To me, if they hit roadblocks, then farm it out. They already make the best glass, fantastic sensors, and the best bodies in terms of ergonomics and construction. Draw up specs for the CPU you need and hand em off to a chip maker and let them worry about what nanometer speced fabrication machines they have to have.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> The leap from Digic 8 to Digic X is orders of magnitude. Did they create a new fab process in house? Did they contract out to a third party like TSM or the sort?


Canon has never produced DIGIC in house. it's always been subcontracted out. It was in the past co-designed by Canon and TI.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I think he's close.. but a little off the mark.
> 
> the 5D Mark IV, 1DX Mark II was hampered because the DIGIC SoC didn't have 4K encoding because at the time of creation TI who Canon was using back then (no idea on now) didn't have an effecient h.264 encoder that would not heat your coffee at the same time as encoding video.
> 
> ...



Do we even know for sure where they went after TI? Did they go in house? Did they find another third party? Obviously whatever they did between Digic 8 and X was huge. Hell maybe they got AMD to build out on that 7nm process they have now LOL (I'm sure not, but would be cool) The Digic Threadripper


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Do we even know for sure where they went after TI? Did they go in house? Did they find another third party? Obviously whatever they did between Digic 8 and X was huge. Hell maybe they got AMD to build out on that 7nm process they have now LOL (I'm sure not, but would be cool) The Digic Threadripper


there's absolutely no way they are doing it in house. They never have.

TI as far as processors were simply using ARM - why the bump up? not sure, maybe they changed from TI and went to samsung or something.. who knows really .. probably not that important. However no, they aren't using AMD or something - some derivitive of ARM most likely - they have to be low power processors because of heat management. They could still even be with TI. who knows.

but anyways, can't focus on just the processor - there have been massive throughput gains on the last sensor generation starting with the 32.5MP.

The DIGIC X would be moot if those changes did not occur.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Even EOSHD wrote a better piece on the announcement and he's been hammering Canon continuously for the last 5+ years.


That's hard to fathom. Andrew Reid I'd swear posts stuff sometimes after 3-4 whiskey cocktails.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> That's hard to fathom. Andrew Reid I'd swear posts stuff sometimes after 3-4 whiskey cocktails.



Seriously. go read his article on it, and then go read dpreview's.


----------



## TracerHD (Feb 13, 2020)

I'm worried about if canon will use USH-II instead of CFexpress.
If let's say the R is arround 30MB / shot by 30 MP, maybe we need about 900MB/s cards.

Right? 45MP * 20Shots/sec = 900+ MB/s?

The highest UHS-II card I found had a average speed of 242MB/sec with a top of around 272MB/sec


----------



## Tremotino (Feb 13, 2020)

snappy604 said:


> still no comments on the 'rate' button? ;-)


Rate? OMG! I realized it only right now...

This is the button I am missing on my current camera. 
My dream workflow would be to download from my camera only the keepers. (I'm handling all the time too many picture) And this button suggests a fast way to get the job done.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I've always loved this idea as it's a minimum buyers' remorse move.
> 
> Canon to buyer: 'Cards on the table. Here is what your price point gets for the next 3 years. Note that the next time we refresh this price point, it might only be mirrorless. CHOOSE.'
> 
> ...


Are you saying they won't release them at the same time? I know it would be uncharacteristic of Canon. Why get only one PR bump, when you can have two? I may be wrong, but in this case I think it makes some business sense. Release them both at the same time -- knowing that some of their customers are itching to get a mirrorless and knowing that other customers want a DSLR and don't intend to switch. Each constitutes about half of their full frame market (pure guess) so why alienate one half, even if it's just temporary. 

Yes, Canon wants to sell us both mirrorless and DSLRs or two of one kind. (In my case it's two of one kind and at least one of the other, but I'm a special case) But, I think releasing or at least announcing both makes some sense in this instance. Although I certainly admit I could be wrong.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Cool. The RF70-200 does this fine too, though gets a little leveraged near 200. Good for fast deploy or stowage.
> 
> (I assume you're using "dust-pumps" for fun - the repair experts seem to say that dues is not a particular issue with this type, and that primes get more dust.)


 
Have you ever used a push-pull zoom? There's no zoom ring. You move the barrel in and out by moving your gripping hand forward and back. No zoom helicoids inside the barrel. No rotational motion. It's like a small frame mounted bicycle pump. Two tubes, one inside the other, that lengthen and contract by moving one end in and out.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Seriously. go read his article on it, and then go read dpreview's.


It's a fair piece. I'll give it that. One thing that leap out at me: 

_There is rumoured to be an R6 announced later this year which takes the 5K RAW internal video recording and 20MP sensor from the 1D X Mark III and puts it in a body very similar to the R5. _

I have not seen anywhere that the R6 is rumored to have the 5.5RAW like the DX3. Obviously it's the same sensor. We suspect the Digic X as well. CR reports 4K60 like the DX3... Or is Andrew just assuming ALL the exact same video specs brought down from the DX3 to a MILC body? your thoughts? I'm still trying to determine if the R6 is actually the "video centric" body we're heard talk of. But there doesn't seem to be enough information yet.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

TracerHD said:


> I'm worried about if canon will use USH-II instead of CFexpress.
> If let's say the R is arround 30MB / shot by 30 MP, maybe we need about 900MB/s cards.
> 
> Right? 45MP * 20Shots/sec = 900+ MB/s?
> ...




Canon won't advertise a 20 fps functionality unless (at a minimum) the sensor, internal throughput, write speeds, etc. can actually deliver 20 fps. Zero chance they make a 900 MB/s sensor/data highway that gets bottlenecked at the card now that they've outed the 20 fps spec.

Now, they might nerf the balls out of that 20 fps -- it might only be in a crop mode (kinda doubt it), might be 12-bit compressed (getting warmer) -- but if they say 20 fps we're going to get it. High end AF features may also choke the throughput, but that's an elective decision.

So a slower than desirable card format may get used, but it will push 20 fps and 8K (presumably 24 or 30 Hz) if Canon says it will.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Have you ever used a push-pull zoom? There's no zoom ring. You move the barrel in and out by moving your gripping hand forward and back. No zoom helicoids inside the barrel. No rotational motion. It's like a small frame mounted bicycle pump. Two tubes, one inside the other, that lengthen and contract by moving one end in and out.




+1. The EF 100-400L II (and highly likely this RF 100-500L) works like most externally zooming zoom lenses: twist for reach. 

The 100-400L I worked more like a trombone. Birding with that lens was like Riker playing jazz on the holodeck.

- A


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Yeah, that's the thing, I always keep an "L" bracket on my cameras...at least my 5D3 always has one on it.....RRS version.
> 
> Maybe they'll come up with some sort of new L bracket that works with this R5 tilty-flippy....
> 
> ...


Most allow for it but not 100% swing out. 95% for the RRS I believe. Kirk might be that good as well.


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> +1. The EF 100-400L II (and highly likely this RF 100-500L) works like most externally zooming zoom lenses: twist for reach.
> 
> The 100-400L I worked more like a trombone. Birding with that lens was like Riker playing jazz on the holodeck.
> 
> - A


Well, he did land Diana...


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

TracerHD said:


> I'm worried about if canon will use USH-II instead of CFexpress.
> If let's say the R is arround 30MB / shot by 30 MP, maybe we need about 900MB/s cards.
> 
> Right? 45MP * 20Shots/sec = 900+ MB/s?
> ...


The DX3 got Dual CF Express. The R5 will have at least 1 (with the other being maybe CFast2 or SD) The caveat being if you want the fastest frame rates and 4k60 and 4k120 and 8K... gotta have a CFExpress card in there


----------



## joestopper (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *Let's Talk about the SHORTCOMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )
> 
> 
> 1. No dedicated buttons for Mode dial , button for switching between photo & video mode, ( in the 360 render of the R5 camera cannot locate either a dedicated ISO button or AF drive button ). *It has less buttons overall as compared to 5D4.* Thumbs down
> ...



Explain to us how you do "*8K will come with at least a 2x crop" ?
In 3:2 you need 40+ MP! *


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Are you saying they won't release them at the same time? I know it would be uncharacteristic of Canon. Why get only one PR bump, when you can have two? I may be wrong, but in this case I think it makes some business sense. Release them both at the same time -- knowing that some of their customers are itching to get a mirrorless and knowing that other customers want a DSLR and don't intend to switch. Each constitutes about half of their full frame market (pure guess) so why alienate one half, even if it's just temporary.




Except we're rapidly approaching a tipping point where Canon wants us all to join RF, and quickly. They won't force us, but goodness knows they can overtly play favorites with new bodies and refresh cycles. RF will be more frequently updated and RF will lead new generations of bodies and have us wait and hope for an EF equivalent that may never arrive. Each cycle of that peels some more of us off to RF.

I just think simultaneous is a super friendly move for folks like me. Minimize buyers' remorse and you increase your chances of getting my money. But I'm not sure you can win the market with that approach. 

- A


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I'm still trying to determine if the R6 is actually the "video centric" body we're heard talk of. But there doesn't seem to be enough information yet.


Canon has never been known to make any "video centric" stills camera. I know for a while there was some talk of them abandoning the conventional 1D,5D,6D lineup of full frame cameras. But now that we see there's a camera named the R5 with specs and controls similar to what one would expect from a 5D, I think it's only logical to expect that the R6 will just be a 6D successor. I doubt that they're going towards any kind of "video centric" camera the way sony has with the A7S. And why would they? Canon has any number of cinema cameras they're ready to sell you if you want to shoot primarily video. I also suspect Canon is a little leery to make any sort of video centric stills camera after the monumental flop that the 1DC was.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I have not seen anywhere that the R6 is rumored to have the 5.5RAW like the DX3. Obviously it's the same sensor. We suspect the Digic X as well. CR reports 4K60 like the DX3... Or is Andrew just assuming ALL the exact same video specs brought down from the DX3 to a MILC body? your thoughts? I'm still trying to determine if the R6 is actually the "video centric" body we're heard talk of. But there doesn't seem to be enough information yet.




I think people are being far too cavalier with basic assumptions. 20 MP = it's the 1DX3 sensor and we get all the hotness that camera can do so therefore the camera will have X and is intended for Y market is a special kind of paint huffing.

We know next to nothing on the R6. We have to wait for more info.

- A


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Except we're rapidly approaching a tipping point where Canon wants us all to join RF, and quickly. They won't force us, but goodness knows they can overtly play favorites with new bodies and refresh cycles. RF will be more frequently updated and RF will lead new generations of bodies and have us wait and hope for an EF equivalent that may never arrive. Each cycle of that peels some more of us off to RF.
> 
> I just think simultaneous is a super friendly move for folks like me. Minimize buyers' remorse and you increase your chances of getting my money. But I'm not sure you can win the market with that approach.
> 
> - A


I think by the time the R5 hits the shelves for sale, we will know a lot more if not everything about the R6. The only things after that are the High MP R5s and the R1X. Both of those are more or less easy to figure to out what we are gonna get. You either need crazy resolution or you need a pro work horse, indestructible tank. There's no overlap with those two models. I think by May/June we will know most everything we need to know to make a buying decision(s)


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *Let's Talk about the SHORTCOMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )
> 
> 
> 1. No dedicated buttons for Mode dial , button for switching between photo & video mode, ( in the 360 render of the R5 camera cannot locate either a dedicated ISO button or AF drive button ). *It has less buttons overall as compared to 5D4.* Thumbs down



The mode dial is on the top right rear of the camera. It says "Mode" in the middle, just like with the EOS R.

The "instant video" button is the red one on the top of the body directly behind the M.Fn. button, just like with the EOS R.



vishaltpt said:


> 2.* Megapixels* : R5 will possibly have 40 megapixels (which is very less in 2020, at least 45 Mpx is a must) ...Nikon released D850 in 2017 with 45 Mpx , now Z7 in 2019 with 46 mpx, A7r4 can do 61 mpx. Canon doesn't have the DR of the Sony's & Nikons. *So R5 lags behind the competition in photo specs.*



It's going to be 45 MP. You don't have any idea how the DR will stack up to other cameras, because you haven't tested the new sensor yet.



vishaltpt said:


> 3. Possibly the R5 will not have 10 bit internal video like S1H , or record externally 10 bit like Nikon z7, z6. S1H leads in video specs hands down.*So R5 lags in video specs as well.*



*Possibly might not have* means it *definitely lags*, huh?



vishaltpt said:


> 4. Possibly No anamorphic lens support like S1H. R5 lags



*Possibly might not have* means it *definitely lags*, huh?



vishaltpt said:


> 5. S1H can do dual ISO for cleaner video at higher ISO. R5 lags here too.





vishaltpt said:


> 6. S1H is NETFLIX approved & imho R5 won't have those specs for NETFLIX approval. R5 lags.



*Possibly might not have* means it *definitely lags*, huh?



vishaltpt said:


> 6. can't do ISO 32 & ISO 64 like the Nikon Z7 when you want shallower depth of field in bright light.



*Possibly might not have* means it *definitely lags*, huh?



vishaltpt said:


> 7. Canon has not talked about the battery life.*.in all probability it will take fewer shots per battery charge as compared to Canon 5D4.*



And in all probability it will improve on the EOS R and comparable MILCs. So what's your point?



vishaltpt said:


> 8. *so the ONLY saving grace that Canon marketing found for this camera was that to give it 8K !!! ))
> if you take out the 8K from the equation what does R5 have that the competition doesn't already offer??? *



We'll have to wait and see the actual specs and performance before we can actually answer that honestly.



vishaltpt said:


> Further, imho that* 8K will come with at least a 2x crop & 8 bit 4.2.0 codec.* So basically that will be a gimmick ...not for Pro's. Not sure whether the 4K will be with crop of Full frame either. Also possibly no live AF tracking in 4K or 8K modes. Canon has NOT revealed anything on the codecs. is it 8bit? or 10 bit? or has 12bit Raw like C200. Internal 10 bit in 4K is a must in 2020. what about RAW video codec ?? it doesn't seem to have. *RAW lite a must for video in 2020.*



You can't crop a 40+ MP 3:2 sensor by much as have enough pixels left for 8K.

4K will probably be cropped. Who cares? If it's a 2X crop that's the same size as an uncropped µ4/3 sensor!

Re: codecs *Possibly might not have* means it *definitely lags*, huh?



vishaltpt said:


> Canon is solidly lagging behind the competition by at least 2 years in Mirrorless...it is releasing cameras with specs which the competition already released in 2017 on wards.
> 
> *So do u think R5 is the ONE which will destroy the competition in 2020 ???*



Yep. And you're quaking in your boots because you know it to be true.


----------



## -pekr- (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I usually give dpreview the benefit of the doubt because it's a hard job writing articles that are balanced.
> 
> But the way they reported on this development announcement leaves all credibility of balance at the door. No, not at the door, they tossed it into the trash.
> 
> ...



There seems to be another expert, Matt Granger, who tries to warn the public from being over excited, because - we are talking Canon here, right? ... And historically inaccurate rumour site information too. 

His take is, that R5 might be able to do 20 fps only with a mirror up. Somehow he forgot, he's "analysing" a mirrorless camera. So much for those youtube experts ....


----------



## joestopper (Feb 13, 2020)

JohnC said:


> You sure put a lot of effort in trying to paint a demeaning picture of a camera that doesn't have the specs released yet. Unfortunately the vast majority of it sounds ridiculous.



... shows the poster's lack of basic technical understanding.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 13, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> 6. can't do ISO 32 & ISO 64 like the Nikon Z7 when you want shallower depth of field in bright light.


Ok, first, all high end Canons have had ISO "L" below 100 for a long time. And no one has said _anything_ about the ISO capability of this camera yet.

Second, if you want to run extremely wide apertures in bright daylight, you need to go buy some ND filters, because with a wide aperture prime in daylight conditions, you can still easily run out of shutter speed even at ISO "L".

What a troll post.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Canon has never been known to make any "video centric" stills camera. I know for a while there was some talk of them abandoning the conventional 1D,5D,6D lineup of full frame cameras. But now that we see there's a camera named the R5 with specs and controls similar to what one would expect from a 5D, I think it's only logical to expect that the R6 will just be a 6D successor. I doubt that they're going towards any kind of "video centric" camera the way sony has with the A7S. And why would they? Canon has any number of cinema cameras they're ready to sell you if you want to shoot primarily video. I also suspect Canon is a little leery to make any sort of video centric stills camera after the monumental flop that the 1DC was.


There has been quite a bit of talk suggesting they absolutely ARE working on one. "A lower MP body to rival the a7s" That would be video centric model as that is precisely what the a7S is built for. The monkey wrench is this new 8K business since the a7s2 came out. Honestly I would MUCH prefer a FF 4K 1:1 sensor from Canon. That's why the a7S is so special at it's perfect FF 12MP in 3:2 and FF 8.8MP in 16:9 4K


----------



## reef58 (Feb 13, 2020)

It seems camera specs are becoming like crack. I am only half kidding. This arms race cannot continue can it? A highly speced camera comes out. The internet sings praises, and a few months later it is regarded a a piece of old junk. Exciting times, but a little disheartening. That being said the future for Canon seems pretty bright based on the specs (1dx3) Announcement R5, and rumors R6 and others.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I think by the time the R5 hits the shelves for sale, we will know a lot more if not everything about the R6. The only things after that are the High MP R5s and the R1X. Both of those are more or less easy to figure to out what we are gonna get. You either need crazy resolution or you need a pro work horse indestructible tank. There's no overlap with two models. I think by May/June we will know most everything we need to know to make a buying decision(s)




Precisely where my head is. Canon's rolling out it's lineup and either the segmentation is really familiar to us or it might have an odd wrinkle (some low light video heavy setup). The big unknown is actually the R6 in my mind for the reasons you mentioned -- the R1 and R5S are very predictable products. So once we know what the R6 is, out come the credit cards.

- A


----------



## futzy (Feb 13, 2020)

noms78 said:


> lack of mechanical mode dial and separate video switch are the only negatives so far


Using 1D series since the first model and never missed a mechanical mode dial. On my 5D III mechanical is fine but as said never missed one. Buttons for switching work just fine.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I think by the time the R5 hits the shelves for sale, we will know a lot more if not everything about the R6. The only things after that are the High MP R5s and the R1X. Both of those are more or less easy to figure to out what we are gonna get. You either need crazy resolution or you need a pro work horse, indestructible tank. There's no overlap with those two models. I think by May/June we will know most everything we need to know to make a buying decision(s)



How about a development announcement for the R1X in exactly 12 months, ahead of CP+ 2021?


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

Am I alone in hoping it has mismatching card slots? I seriously don't need memory cards to bankrupt me when also funding a new body and L plate. I bet if I shot video I would think differently but with stills, I am good with one of each.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

slclick said:


> Am I alone in hoping it has mismatching card slots? I seriously don't need memory cards to bankrupt me when also funding a new body and L plate. I bet if I shot video I would think differently but with stills, I am good with one of each.



IIRC, mismatched slots inhibit maximum recording speed in some modes.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Ok, first, all high end Canons have had ISO "L" below 100 for a long time. And no one has said _anything_ about the ISO capability of this camera yet.




It might be complete ignorance on my part, but I always thought ISO L was just a boosted ISO 100 that could clip. I never ever used it on my 5D3.

One of the reasons we kept getting pantsed in DR 5 years ago was the on-chip ADC, sure, but I thought the EXMOR sensors had true sub-100 ISO that provided more DR. 

We're on-chip now (for the most part), but do we have a workable ISO 50 or 64 like the bad guys?

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

reef58 said:


> It seems camera specs are becoming like crack. I am only half kidding. This arms race cannot continue can it? A highly speced camera comes out. The internet sings praises, and a few months later it is regarded a a piece of old junk. Exciting times, but a little disheartening. That being said the future for Canon seems pretty bright based on the specs (1dx3) Announcement R5, and rumors R6 and others.




Us talking about rumored specs and then harumphing when they don't materialize as planned is effectively like soccer/football fans getting amped up about future transfer rumors that rarely pan out.

- A


----------



## Cyborx (Feb 13, 2020)

And what brainless idiot will buy the 7400 euro 'flagship' 1Dx Mark III now this news is out? 
Cannot believe Canon is charging 7400 for a product that is already outdated before it hits the market.
I am so happy there is competition now, else this R5 mirrorless would cost 7400 euro too..


----------



## Quackator (Feb 13, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Either you are kidding or you are entirely wrong: Building 2.4 million units before shipping a single one? -> NO WAY!
> This is against any production line logistics.



It simply quenches the thirst of all early adopters who typically buy at RRP.

Shipping a week later, many people will have had second thoughts.

This is about milking the first wave of buyers. (Including me).

To be able to do that, you have to fill the distribution channel to
the top, to met any demand instantaneously.

Yes, there is risk involved. Canon manages that since 1985, when 
they built all of the T90 bodies ever built in a stretch of only 12 weeks, 
and sold them for five years to come.

The know very well what they are doing.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Max C said:


> My 2020 Gear and Price Wishlist
> R6 $2000 (TBA)
> RP $999
> EF 50mm f1.8 $125
> ...



Why go with the Tamron EF SP 28-75 f2.8 XR DI when the much newer and far superior SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC is not that much more?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

tron said:


> I am sure you can find RF24-105 cheaper than the $1K you imply. Although I got it as a kit with R from Europe so I cannot provide you with specific examples have you tried to find grey importers?
> 
> I would not touch the specific Tamron according to TDP comparisons:
> 
> ...



That 28-75mm is two generations back. The SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC (and the G2 version of it) are both much better lenses and you can find used copies of the G1 from reputable sellers for $500.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

Cyborx said:


> And what brainless idiot will buy the 7400 euro 'flagship' 1Dx Mark III now this news is out?
> Cannot believe Canon is charging 7400 for a product that is already outdated before it hits the market.
> I am so happy there is competition now, else this R5 mirrorless would cost 7400 euro too..




_"I won this prestigious photo award because I maximized my camera's horsepower-per-dollar ratio."_

-- said by no one in the history of mankind​
These hot takes that the 1DX3 is in dire jeopardy of losing, what -- its internet forum dwelling enthusiast user market share? -- just make me 

- A


----------



## Lalumière (Feb 13, 2020)

I really hope that Canon will introduce in a near future an APS-C "R7" to replace my old 7D mk2 for wildlife photography. Also the new RF 100-500mm interest me.


----------



## reefroamer (Feb 13, 2020)

sanch said:


> Yes but the compromise is not stated. I feel there will be a massive compromise. 8K in that body is too far fetched.


It’s not a “compromise” if it’s the limit of what can be achieved now. And of course, you are free to buy whatever uncompromised 8k body the competition is offering, though I’m not sure what that is.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The mode dial is on the top right rear of the camera. It says "Mode" in the middle, just like with the EOS R.
> 
> The "instant video" button is the red one on the top of the body directly behind the M.Fn. button, just like with the EOS R.
> 
> ...


Trolls aren't even trying anymore are they? Making up statistics to then complain about


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> It’s not a “compromise” if it’s the limit of what can be achieved now. And of course, you are free to buy whatever uncompromised 8k body the competition is offering, though I’m not sure what that is.




The Nikon D850 drops some sweet 8K movies... but the framerate leaves something to be desired.

- A


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

Cyborx said:


> And what brainless idiot will buy the 7400 euro 'flagship' 1Dx Mark III now this news is out?
> Cannot believe Canon is charging 7400 for a product that is already outdated before it hits the market.
> I am so happy there is competition now, else this R5 mirrorless would cost 7400 euro too..



Dear Lord... what is it with some people and paper specs... This has been asked and answered 50 times on this thread alone and countless others before it. If you don't understand the difference in cameras, it's ok. Just say so. Cuz lots and lots of "idiots" are going to buy the 1DX3.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Dear Lord... what is it with some people and paper specs... This has been asked answered 50 times on this thread alone and countless others before it. If you don't understand the difference in cameras, it's ok. Just say so. Cuz lots and lots of "idiots are going to buy the DX3.




Yep. They are also known as photographers.

- A


----------



## BillB (Feb 13, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Actually, I agree with you. I'm getting ahead of myself. You're right, this is an A7 competitor, not an A9 competitor.


*Well, until there is an R1, the R5 is as close a mirrorless competitor to the A9 as Canon will have. If you throw in price, the RF system and Canon's support , it might get interesting.*


----------



## reefroamer (Feb 13, 2020)

Lalumière said:


> I really hope that Canon will introduce in a near future an APS-C "R7" to replace my old 7D mk2 for wildlife photography. Also the new RF 100-500mm interest me.


I don’t think that’s going to happen. Just my opinion. If it does, though, it will only come after Canon has fleshed out its lineup of full-frame RF bodies and lenses. They are very laser-focused right now on that.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Amen, fellow Questar enthusiast. Every hood of mine stays in the original box with the sealed manual, warranty docs, and strap, and is never deployed. I invest in good lenses with good coatings, and pay to much of a premium for convenient and compact forms to throw away the benefits with a hood that I associate with amateurs trying to make their lenses look more pro. Reminds me of those engagement ring settings with the circle of little diamond chips to "fool" people into thinking the main diamond is much larger.



There are two very good reasons for using a hood:

They block off axis light that can cause flare and ghosting, which is important if one is shooting under artificial lighting such as found in stadiums and gyms, or into the general direction of the sun (because that's where the media is allowed to stand and face their subjects).

They absorb the impact of things like linebackers and line drives so your lens' front element doesn't have to.

If the use of hoods was so presumptuous, why would pros be using them? They provide significant benefits especially on longer focal length lenses.

As the saying on the sideline goes, "If at least one of your hoods is not held together by duct tape, you're not getting close enough."


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 13, 2020)

BillB said:


> *Well, until there is an R1, the R5 is as close a mirrorless competitor to the A9 as Canon will have. If you throw in price, the RF system and Canon's support , it might get interesting.*




They may do some publicity stunt and hand an R5 to a sideline photog or wildlifer or photojourno and ask them to try out 20 fps for a promotional video, but I just don't see them making a major push in that market out of the gate. Is the the A9 taking over on sidelines or out on safari or polar expeditions? I see a few a political PJs carry them, but not that many. I think Canon is holding serve really well on the high fps / 'be there' / action rigs.

My point: just because the A9 -- a non-gripped FF action rig -- exists, doesn't mean it's a market segment in which Canon must be throwing haymakers.

I see the R5 aimed at a much bigger market: the general working pro who covers a lot of fields: wedding/event photogs, people who run a small studio, content creators who need strong video, etc. They aren't always sure what they'll be shooting next week, but the camera will be highly likely be an 8 or 9 out of 10 at that task.

I could be wrong.

- A


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> …didn't have an effecient h.264 encoder that would not heat your coffee at the same time as encoding video.



B-but… Surely that's a feature rather than a bug? They should just come up with a cupholder accessory that doubles as a heat sink!


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Yep. They are also known as photographers.
> 
> - A


To some folks, Canon is apparently giving away a free one of these with every 1DX3 purchase:


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> I don’t think that’s going to happen. Just my opinion. If it does, though, it will only come after Canon has fleshed out its lineup of full-frame RF bodies and lenses. They are very laser-focused right now on that.



That second part of what you said. That. They WILL happen. No question. But yes, the FF line gets fleshed out first. We have Crop DSLR EF mount cameras now. We will have Crop RF MILCs to replace them


----------



## prodorshak (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I usually give dpreview the benefit of the doubt because it's a hard job writing articles that are balanced.
> 
> But the way they reported on this development announcement leaves all credibility of balance at the door. No, not at the door, they tossed it into the trash.
> 
> ...


Did you see Matt Granger's video on R5? It's even worse.


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

navastronia said:


> IIRC, mismatched slots inhibit maximum recording speed in some modes.


And once again, in a sense, that is not a concern as I'm not inclined to use high fps or video very often. I think I used video on my 5D3 twice in nearly 8 years. High FPS maybe 50 times. So, I wasn't asking about how things work, but is everyone wanting same same with card slots. Thanks anyway.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Consider it takes 4 times less time to process 12 bit than it does 14 bit. Canon has done this alot in the past.


I'm not sure. The data transfer will save only about 14%. Other stages of processing such as encoding may benefit a little but I doubt it'll be 4x. If you imply the bitness difference will be a power of two, 2^2=4, I don't think it's the case here.



canonnews said:


> the 8K may be h.265 8 bit - which means that Canon (I could be wrong but I think this is right) only needs to read out the sensor at 10 bit mode which is even faster..8 times faster than 14 bit mode.



Now the difference is 4 bits and 2^4=16, not 8. But it still not the case, in fact it should be just about 28% faster (14-10)/14.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2020)

reef58 said:


> A highly speced camera comes out. The internet sings praises, and a few months later it is regarded a a piece of old junk. Exciting times, but a little disheartening.



I'd like to take the opportunity to remind everyone of Roger's Law of New Product Introduction:


----------



## reef58 (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The mode dial is on the top right rear of the camera. It says "Mode" in the middle, just like with the EOS R.
> 
> The "instant video" button is the red one on the top of the body directly behind the M.Fn. button, just like with the EOS R.
> 
> ...



Not to mention it has to beat 4 different cameras in all categories it appears or it lags.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

slclick said:


> You are a well informed photographer, I gather that. So I was wondering when you posted about hoods, what are your thoughts on dealing with unwanted flare and decreased contrast? I would love if hoods were unnecessary but they also add protection which is a huge benefit in certain situations and in unfortunate accidents. I have definite and specific uses for certain lenses where I never use a hood but for more general use with the rest of my glass I usually do.
> Love to hear your thoughts.


----------



## BillB (Feb 13, 2020)

reef58 said:


> It seems camera specs are becoming like crack. I am only half kidding. This arms race cannot continue can it? A highly speced camera comes out. The internet sings praises, and a few months later it is regarded a a piece of old junk. Exciting times, but a little disheartening. That being said the future for Canon seems pretty bright based on the specs (1dx3) Announcement R5, and rumors R6 and others.


Some take the internet buzz a little too seriously. Part of it is Canon's fault. Without more data, people can get over torqued.


----------



## David - Sydney (Feb 13, 2020)

.jan said:


> Nope, that info is unavailable but it'd be a big surprise if it weren't full AE/AF in any AF mode for 12 and 20 fps.


Canon did say "up to approximately 12 FPS when using the mechanical shutter ".... that leaves it open to all sorts of caveats


----------



## reef58 (Feb 13, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> There seems to be another expert, Matt Granger, who tries to warn the public from being over excited, because - we are talking Canon here, right? ... And historically inaccurate rumour site information too.
> 
> His take is, that R5 might be able to do 20 fps only with a mirror up. Somehow he forgot, he's "analysing" a mirrorless camera. So much for those youtube experts ....



Matt is taking a conservative approach and I think his information is wrong, however he just misspoke on the mirror up thing. Mistakes happen.


----------



## danski0224 (Feb 13, 2020)

That "thunk" was Sony falling over...



Waiting on 5DSR replacement.


----------



## reef58 (Feb 13, 2020)

Cyborx said:


> And what brainless idiot will buy the 7400 euro 'flagship' 1Dx Mark III now this news is out?
> Cannot believe Canon is charging 7400 for a product that is already outdated before it hits the market.
> I am so happy there is competition now, else this R5 mirrorless would cost 7400 euro too..



Someone who understands the purpose of the camera unlike yourself.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 13, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I'm not sure. The data transfer will save only about 14%. Other stages of processing such as encoding may benefit a little but I doubt it'll be 4x. If you imply the bitness difference will be a power of two, 2^2=4, I don't think it's the case here.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Now the difference is 4 bits and 2^4=16, not 8. But it still not the case, in fact it should be just about 28% faster (14-10)/14.



If I understand correctly, Richard is referring to the fact that the performance of the A/D converters is exponential in bit depth (which is to say, linear in number of discrete values). So converting a single analog reading to a 12-bit digital value is four times faster than to a 14-bit value.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Do you really expect all the 1DX III features for half the price?



No, only the ones he wants.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Feb 13, 2020)

Here is my input in case anyone finds it interesting... *If* the 45 megapixel rumored specs are true:
8K DCI would be no crop, 8K UHD would be 1.066x crop... and visually that looks like the image below.... enjoy 




Bah, and I had to make a typo in that diagram.... DCI 8K not 4K


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

ThruMyLens said:


> I see that as an unlikely scenario, but yes - possible.
> 
> I'm gloriously happy with my 5D Mark IV for my current purposes. It will be an exercise in self-discipline to see if I can wait until "refurbished" R5s starts showing up in the Canon Store. Black Friday could epic this year.



If the past is any indication, bodies released in the fall don't get much discount action on Black Friday until the following year. So for the R5, the great deals will be BF of 2021.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 13, 2020)

slclick said:


> And once again, in a sense, that is not a concern as I'm not inclined to use high fps or video very often. I think I used video on my 5D3 twice in nearly 8 years. High FPS maybe 50 times. So, I wasn't asking about how things work, but is everyone wanting same same with card slots. Thanks anyway.



Sorry I misunderstood you. In that case, it seems like you're asking an obvious question, which is "does everyone else want matching card slots, which will in turn enable higher speed shooting," to which I'm sure the answer is a resounding "yes," despite that it will increase the cost of using the camera. In my observation, not many forumers here would elect for lower specs, when given the choice, although for this one issue, you are obviously one exception.


----------



## BC (Feb 13, 2020)

I'm waiting to make sure there isn't a bait-and-switch like the EOS R – 8 fps ... but only 5(ish) in servo AF. Soooo you're back to 5D Mk II framerates with action. I mean, it was never meant to be an action camera, but still.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Bob Howland said:


> Any guesses about the purpose of the "Rate" button on the upper left corner of the back?
> 
> I ordered my 5D, 40D and 5D3 on the days they were introduced. Each of them solved a compelling photographic problem at the time. I don't think I'll do that with this body, although I am VERY interested in it,



About the same as the "Rate" button on the left side of your 5D3?


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Sorry I misunderstood you. In that case, it seems like you're asking an obvious question, which is "does everyone else want matching card slots, which will in turn enable higher speed shooting," to which I'm sure the answer is a resounding "yes," despite that it will increase the cost of using the camera. In my observation, not many forumers here would elect for lower specs, when given the choice, although for this one issue, you are obviously one exception.


Well, I am only semi-rational


----------



## dwarven (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> There are two very good reasons for using a hood:
> 
> They block off axis light that can cause flare and ghosting, which is important if one is shooting under artificial lighting such as found in stadiums and gyms, or into the general direction of the sun (because that's where the media is allowed to stand and face their subjects).
> 
> ...



In my noob days I'd use a cheapo UV filter to protect my lens because some Youtuber said to. I've since ditched those and use hoods 24/7.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 13, 2020)

Cyborx said:


> And what brainless idiot will buy the 7400 euro 'flagship' 1Dx Mark III now this news is out?


Sure thing. What brainless idiot will buy a faster rolling shutter (both electronically an mechanically) to shoot fast action if they can buy a slower one?

Of course brainless idiots will buy a cheaper, slower one, and then complain on the forums about the jello effect.


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

BC said:


> I'm waiting to make sure there isn't a bait-and-switch like the EOS R – 8 fps ... but only 5(ish) in servo AF. Soooo you're back to 5D Mk II framerates with action. I mean, it was never meant to be an action camera, but still.


I would like to speak with the person whomever thought it was going to be an action body. Not sure there is such a person. Also not quite sure you are using the term Bait and Switch correctly. In fact I know you're not and was just being kind, at first.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

Laslen said:


> The product listing (so far) says "Up to 12fps Mechanical" which "up to" hints to me there are probably some catches. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how they differentiate it from the 1DX3, with crippled or no AF at the highest burst rates.
> 
> They need to give people a reason to still buy the 1DX3. They are a business, after all. It also mentions nothing about the 20fps electronic, yet.



They always say "up to" with regard to frame rates. That's because factors like ISO, scene complexity (which affects processing time), Tv, memory card write speed, etc. can slow it down.


----------



## David_E (Feb 13, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> _I couldn't say because it's not my quote!_


Oops!


----------



## amorse (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I usually give dpreview the benefit of the doubt because it's a hard job writing articles that are balanced.
> 
> But the way they reported on this development announcement leaves all credibility of balance at the door. No, not at the door, they tossed it into the trash.
> 
> ...


There will definitely be more of those articles to come. People have grown used to ridiculing Canon for years and now I think it's more muscle memory analysis for a lot of people. Whether the camera does what it the announcement say it can or not is irrelevant - the hate will come one way or the other.

But at the same time, if the specs hold to our expectations, DPR's perspective won't matter too much because this camera claims to do things that just aren't possible for any other camera body for the time being. Further, if this thing sells in the neighbourhood of a 5D IV, they're going to sell a boat load of them - I wouldn't be surprised if there was a preorder backlog if there are no (or few) deal-breaker compromises.


----------



## David_E (Feb 13, 2020)

dwarven said:


> _In my noob days I'd use a cheapo UV filter to protect my lens because some Youtuber said to. I've since ditched those and use hoods 24/7._


In my noob days I'd use a lens hood to protect my lens because the camera magazines told me to. Got tired of that quick enough and for the past 50 years I've relied only on UV filters. Never a problem.


----------



## Max TT (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Why go with the Tamron EF SP 28-75 f2.8 XR DI when the much newer and far superior SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC is not that much more?



It’s a $700 difference


----------



## Fast351 (Feb 13, 2020)

I'm interested in the EVF and if they've made significant improvements there. I mean 12/20fps is useless if the EVF has 200mS lag and a blackout every time the shutter hits. 

Probably have to wait until reviewers actually get their hands on a couple before we find that out though sadly.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 13, 2020)

David_E said:


> In my noob days I'd use a lens hood to protect my lens because the camera magazines told me to. Got tired of that quick enough and for the past 50 years I've relied only on UV filters. Never a problem.


I use both on all lenses except TS-E 17, where I use neither. Never a problem... except that TS-E somehow manages to catch ghosts even if the sun is behind my back.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> sonyalpharumors is fun at the moment...


Hi Mike. So what is the latest on Sonyalpha? Are Sony now looking to exit camera business? Has it been announced yet or they waiting for the Canon RS to be announced first? 
a garbage truck dumped a box of used Sony mirrorless cameras on my nature strip last night. Thought about calling Salvos and ask them to collect.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

masterpix said:


> 7.1 with 7 steps IS and IBIS? who cares it is 7.1 anymore?



Anyone with a moving subject in low light?


----------



## masterpix (Feb 13, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Anyone who isn't taking a photo of something that's standing perfectly still.


That is where the third ring comes about, increase the ISO and there you have it. Good noise reduction sensor is the key to resolve that also.

However, those seeking to take pictures of fast moving objects will always prefer a prime lense with aparature of 2.8 and less (if that possible) anyone buying this lens will probably be someone like me that needs to compromise about the focal lengh and thier pocket delpth.


----------



## amorse (Feb 13, 2020)

slclick said:


> I would like to speak with the person whomever thought it was going to be an action body. Not sure there is such a person. Also not quite sure you are using the term Bait and Switch correctly. In fact I know you're not and was just being kind, at first.


Well, I agree with you that it's not likely an action targeted monster in the same vein as the 1DXIII, but to be fair, Canon's press release did include the following line:

"The new sensor will enable enhanced features such as high-speed continuous shooting up to approximately 20 frames-per-second (FPS) when using the silent shutter and up to approximately 12 FPS when using the mechanical shutter – A feature professional sports and wildlife photographers will find to be extremely impactful on their ability to capture fast-moving subjects. "

So Canon already did tie this body to some action and high-speed shooting.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Line doubling.



Wouldn't that be for getting full sensor 4K out of a 40MP sensor, rather than the other way around?


----------



## masterpix (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Anyone with a moving subject in low light?


Again, that is where the third ring comes into use, increase the ISO and hope for the best. There is a limit to how much one can demand from a digital sensor. It can't take fast moving object is total darkness.


----------



## BillB (Feb 13, 2020)

KT said:


> It will be priced the same as the 5DSR when it first came out in June 2015, that would be around $3900 for the body.


Maybe so, but the 5DS-R was more of a niche lens than the R5 will be. The R5 might be better compared to the 5DIV, which began at $3500.


----------



## Aaron Lozano (Feb 13, 2020)

yeahright said:


> They are talking about the NEW AF-ON Button so far only found on the 1D Mark III that also has a Joystick AND an AF-ON-Button, but the AF-ON-Button is not only a button but also (as far as I understand) allows AF-point switching. It appears they would have wanted this new button to appear on the R5 as well. As it is, the R5 has the traditional controls already found on the 5D Mark IV. What I am missing is the AF mode selector button (to switch from point to the various AF area modes). Is it hidden somewhere or is that feature implemented differently on mirrorless?



Maybe that's on the joystick too or it can be manually mapped.

One would think the 1DXIII has less need to optimize things to become multi-function as it is a big camera and the R5 would need it even more than the 1 series. 

BTW, I keep getting surprised by the fact we are all talking about an inanimate object with such an amount of temper tantrums and heated arguments. Maybe I am just too calm.


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Hi Mike. So what is the latest on Sonyalpha? Are Sony now looking to exit camera business? Has it been announced yet or they waiting for the Canon RS to be announced first?
> a garbage truck dumped a box of used Sony mirrorless cameras on my nature strip last night. Thought about calling Salvos and ask them to collect.


The poor writing, including numerous typos combined with incredibly small font sizes is an instant turnoff. Can't read that site to save my life.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> From a build perspective, I think it's obvious by reputation and (I guess) a higher published shutter life as some proxy metric for toughness and durability.
> 
> But surely that reputation is earned. War correspondents and arctic tundra wildlifers generally are not toting M5s.
> 
> ...



As the classic saying goes: You can use it to club someone to death and still be able to take a picture of the body afterwards.


----------



## Nelu (Feb 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> In this thread alone, I've heard comments that the R5 has to punch its weight against both the A9 and the A7RIV.
> 
> That seems nuts. What if it is intended for neither market segment? An R1 is coming, and we presume a super high detail RF body is coming as well.
> 
> ...


Yes!...and for a similar price, too!


----------



## scyrene (Feb 13, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> The hood on the MP-E (it exists, google it, it's awesome!) is mainly there to keep the flash out of the front element.



Wow! I learned something today.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 13, 2020)

Lalumière said:


> I really hope that Canon will introduce in a near future an APS-C "R7" to replace my old 7D mk2 for wildlife photography. Also the new RF 100-500mm interest me.


I strongly doubt it will happen. With the rapidly shrinking ILC market, making yet another line of lenses makes little sense. Every camera company has to consolidate where it can. 

EF-S mount was born in a much different market when FF sensors were very expensive to fabricate. So it made sense to create a more affordable line in a time where digital camera sales were rapidly expanding.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> If I understand correctly, Richard is referring to the fact that the performance of the A/D converters is exponential in bit depth (which is to say, linear in number of discrete values). So converting a single analog reading to a 12-bit digital value is four times faster than to a 14-bit value.



It's definitely not linear to the number of discrete values, some of ADCs work in parallel so don't depend on the number of bits at all, some may be linear to the number of bits (which is log2 to the number of discrete values). 

The bit depth per pixel affects the total amount of bits to transfer from the sensor after ADC, but that's obviously linear to the number of bits. I'm not qualified to do the exact calculations, but going from 14 bits down to 12 bits should give you ~14% less of data to process. It actually gets more complicated as the CPU processes the data in 8, 16, 32 bit chunks, but DIGIC is said to be optimised to process 14-bit sensor data, that is it may have special instructions to pack/unpack 14-bit chunks faster.

Anyway the point is, a 4x performance boost when going from 14 to 12 bits is probably greatly exaggerated.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 13, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> What's the resolution .... ???



---

I can already tell you what the resolution will be for STILLS PHOTOS when Canon says the R5 can capture 8K video!

Unfortunately they don't tell you whether the video capture is DCI 8K (8192 by 4320 pixels) or UHDTV capture (7680 by 4320 pixels)

1) if it's DCI 8K then the STILL PHOTO CMOS sensor resolution WILL BE 8192x5455 or 44,687,360 total pixels (44.68 megapixels)

2) if it's UHDTV 8K then the STILL PHOTO CMOS sensor resolution WILL BE 7680x5120 or 39,321,600 total pixels (39.32 megapixels)

This means the camera CAN BE 44.68 megapixels (the most likely resolution!) OR it can be 39.32 megapixels.

This is because Canon ALWAYS does a 3:2 aspect ratio for it's still photo camera sensors AND since I HAPPEN TO KNOW A LOT OF MATH and that DCI 8K is ALWAYS 8192 by 4320, you can simply use 8192 as the starting base for calculating the VERTICAL RESOLUTION which SHOULD BE 8192x5455 pixels.

In many cases, it might be MORE because Canon has to normally ADD extra pixels outside of the sensing area for sensor calibration purposes, so it MIGHT be slightly more when it gets introduced. (i.e. but no more than 120 extra pixels on the horizontal and vertical)


---


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> I can already tell you what the resolution will be for STILLS PHOTOS when Canon says the R5 can capture 8K video!
> 
> ...


Hmmm, after reading all that the biggest surprise was you didn't use the term 'Maths' because I always assumed you were British. Like the R5 actually being an action body, much to my surprise, chock that up to another error by me today, that makes 3.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 13, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> It's definitely not linear to the number of discrete values,


A ramp-compare ADC definitely is.


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Wouldn't that be for getting full sensor 4K out of a 40MP sensor, rather than the other way around?


My poor attempt at humor.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> there's absolutely no way they are doing it in house. They never have.
> 
> TI as far as processors were simply using ARM - why the bump up? not sure, maybe they changed from TI and went to samsung or something.. who knows really .. probably not that important. However no, they aren't using AMD or something - some derivitive of ARM most likely - they have to be low power processors because of heat management. They could still even be with TI. who knows.
> 
> ...



Fully agree. Its not the processor, its mainly the sensor read out bandwith.


----------



## Bob Howland (Feb 13, 2020)

Lalumière said:


> I really hope that Canon will introduce in a near future an APS-C "R7" to replace my old 7D mk2 for wildlife photography. Also the new RF 100-500mm interest me.


Or maybe the R5 will be settable to FF, 1.3X crop or 1.6X crop. The 5Ds can be set to those, although it doesn't do 12 FPS. Also the R5 will probably cost a lot more than what you want. I have a 100-400 EF, 300 f/2.8 EF and Sigma 150-600 S, so the 100-500 doesn't interest me at all.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 13, 2020)

slclick said:


> Am I alone in hoping it has mismatching card slots? I seriously don't need memory cards to bankrupt me when also funding a new body and L plate. I bet if I shot video I would think differently but with stills, I am good with one of each.



Agreed. For those of us who mainly shoot stills, two CFExpress are overkill.


----------



## davo (Feb 13, 2020)

The R5 is nicer looking than the 5D.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 13, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Agreed. For those of us who mainly shoot stills, two CFExpress are overkill.


I'm pretty sure the 5D cameras all had multi form factor card slots. Like CF and SD (one each). I'm willing to bet my lunch this will be the same. You'll get 1 CFExpress and 1 SD


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Canon did say "up to approximately 12 FPS when using the mechanical shutter ".... that leaves it open to all sorts of caveats


It's always been up to depending on whether you chose focus priority or not.


----------



## .jan (Feb 13, 2020)

cayenne said:


> What "app" are you talking about?


Canon CameraConnect.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Feb 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I'm pretty sure the 5D cameras all had multi form factor card slots. Like CF and SD (one each). I'm willing to bet my lunch this will be the same. You'll get 1 CFExpress and 1 SD



The 5D and Mark II have 1CF slot. The III and IV have a SD slot for mysterious reasons that serves as the backup card fo some. If they go for two different slots it would make more sense to offer a CF+CFE combo for people upgrading, or just dump legacy completely and go all in on dual CFE.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 13, 2020)

Kit. said:


> A ramp-compare ADC definitely is.


Ok, if it's used in Canon sensors, I could be wrong. However the AD conversion itself is only a part of the processing and the total amount of data to transfer/process after ADC is only reduced by 14%. The total win isn't going to be 4x.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 13, 2020)

slclick said:


> Hmmm, after reading all that the biggest surprise was you didn't use the term 'Maths' because I always assumed you were British. Like the R5 actually being an action body, much to my surprise, chock that up to another error by me today, that makes 3.



Actually, --- I AM CANADIAN ---- !!!!

So we use a MIX of U.S. and British English.

In terms of image resolution and burst rates, 20 fps Live View on the R5 is nothing to laugh at and if you need a HIGHER BURST RATE, the video capture option will be either at DCI 8K 8192 x 4320 pixels (35.38 megapixels) or UHDTV 7680 by 4320 pixels (33.17 megapixels), so it's basically a VIRTUAL BURST RATE of 30 fps and ANY magazine editor WILL ACCEPT a 35.38 megapixel or a 33.17 megapixel video frame grab as an "Action/Sports Still Photo" !!!

I've done it MANY TIMES with the Global shutter Canon C700 Global Shutter Cinema Camera using 60 fps 4096 by 2160 (8.8 megapixels) video frame grabs for my sports/action imagery. I am fairly sure YOU have probably seen some of my 8 megapixel frame grabs for my F1, Skiing, Soccer (Football) photos in certain European mags and newspapers (mostly in Germany, Italy and Netherlands with some UK). They tend to use them mostly for online use (i.e. DW.de & DW.com) BUT i've seen a few of my frame grabs in print. I usually cover North America BUT I've done onsite Euro too.

---

This Canon R5 Camera WILL cause consternation in many photographic circles becuase specs-wise IT IS quite excellent ....BUT.... there IS a competitor coming soon enough that is VERY VERY GOOD INDEED !!! So don't rest on your laurels Canon! This R5 is NOT the only game in town!

---


----------



## beachcolonist (Feb 13, 2020)

You try to get into your account, and this site spins, then redirects to weather page for Vilnius Lithuania.


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 14, 2020)

Tremotino said:


> Rate? OMG! I realized it only right now...
> 
> This is the button I am missing on my current camera.
> My dream workflow would be to download from my camera only the keepers. (I'm handling all the time too many picture) And this button suggests a fast way to get the job done.


Delete button works the same way and gives you some additional space on the memory card.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 14, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Ok, if it's used in Canon sensors, I could be wrong. However the AD conversion itself is only a part of the processing and the total amount of data to transfer/process after ADC is only reduced by 14%. The total win isn't going to be 4x.



The A/D stage can definitely be a bottleneck in some cases. For example, if it takes 50ms to perform a single full-sensor readout, you're not going to do more than 20fps no matter how fast everything downstream is. Remember, with current sensor tech you can't start a new exposure "from the top" before the sensor is completely flushed. And if that 50ms is reduced to 12ms by switching to 12-bit ADC mode, that's going to enable all sorts of stuff even if the downstream pipeline bottlenecks below 4x speedup.


----------



## telemaque (Feb 14, 2020)

Today has been a very pleasant day.
I really appreciate to see a company like Canon finally putting in place what their customers had been asking for a while.

From the little announcement video, we could see headphones jack, microphone jack, joystick, wheel on the back, flip screen, ... 
Things we thought were needed for a good video oriented camera, IBIS being also confirmed (great news).
8K video might not be important for me but means impressive options for slow motion in 4K (120 !) or HD( at least 240?...)
However, we still need to wait for clarification of the codecs 10 or 8 bits, 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 ? 4:2:2 in 4K would be very nice.
and the crop factor which is going to be key for me. I hope crop factor of 1: 1 in 4K at 24 fps.

Once people will publish pictures and video footages made with the R5, it would nice if everyone could post them on this website.
I personally will share what I find regarding video quality.

Looking further to more conversations on image and/or video quality.


----------



## JoeDavid (Feb 14, 2020)

canonnews said:


> or 8192.
> 
> but no, the person you responded to think it's a 2x crop so we're getting a freaking awesome 180MP camera


The DCI 8K 8192 gets you around 44.7MP in a 2x3 sensor which is pretty close to the Canon Guy’s 45MP sensor spec.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 14, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> How many types of "8K Resolution" are there ???



---

There are TWO "types" of 8K resolution:

1) DCI (Digital Cinema Initiative) is the PRODUCTION SIDE of video (i.e. capturing an image at the PROFESSIONAL LEVEL) which is ALWAYS at 8192 by 4320 when using the 35mm film aspect ratio which works generally out to ABOUT 1.89:1

2) the CONSUMER-oriented UHDTV 8K standard distribution side which is always 16:9 aspect ratio at 7680 by 4320 pixels.

Since Canon HAS TO use at least 7680 pixels on the horizontal AND MUST HAVE a 3:2 aspect ratio for the Still Photo folks, we can LIKELY ASSUME a specific sensor resolution of EITHER:

a) 8192 x 5455 or 44,687,360 total pixels (44.68 megapixels) = 3:2 still photos and allows DCI 8K video at 1:89 Academy Ratio (35mm film equivalent)

b) 7680 x 5120 or 39,321,600 total pixels (39.32 megapixels) = 3:2 still photos and allows UHDTV video 8K at 16:9 Consumer TV aspect ratio.

I should ALSO NOTE that there are some additional sensor calibration photo-sites USUALLY put on the horizontal AND/OR the vertical which means the above two resolutions MAY have an extra 120 pixels (or so!) on either side!

THOSE ABOVE are the MINIMUM POSSIBLE VALUES --- there MAY BE MORE PIXELS !!!!

---

Anyways, this is STILL GREAT NEWS FOR Canon gurus! This Canon R5 looks like it will be a GREAT CAMERA for BOTH Stills AND Video !!!

---

I should STATE AGAIN THOUGH .... certain competitors ARE NOT SITTING STILL !!!!

---


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 14, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Delete button works the same way and gives you some additional space on the memory card.


I never delete photos in-camera except for very obvious failures and the ones that have already been transferred to PC. Rate button in turn is very useful on 5DIV. I mark beginnings of sequences for stacking/blending and also some potential keepers.


----------



## gbc (Feb 14, 2020)

So two card slots is great... Do we even know what kind of cards?


----------



## Tremotino (Feb 14, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Delete button works the same way and gives you some additional space on the memory card.


Yeah, that's what I'm doing at the moment...
For me it's much harder to delete pictures instead of give the best pictures a thumb up


----------



## dog8food (Feb 14, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Canon has never been known to make any "video centric" stills camera.


The 1Dc comes to mind, where "c" stands for cinema.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

gbc said:


> So two card slots is great... Do we even know what kind of cards?



No.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 14, 2020)

dog8food said:


> The 1Dc comes to mind, where "c" stands for cinema.


Right, but like I said, it was a massive failure. I think maybe the starting MSRP of 15 thousand goddamn dollars might have had something a lot to do with it, but still, it flopped.


----------



## YuengLinger (Feb 14, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Yeah, that's the thing, I always keep an "L" bracket on my cameras...at least my 5D3 always has one on it.....RRS version.
> 
> Maybe they'll come up with some sort of new L bracket that works with this R5 tilty-flippy....
> 
> ...



The RRS bracket for the EOS R does have the gap to let the flip-screen swing out and move quite a bit; however, it also has a spot where the RRS bracket, with just a little bit of pressure, could easily pierce the edge of the screen. It's the upper part of the gap. Personally, I don't think the RRS crew put much effort or thought into the L-bracket for the R. They've left out the magnetically secured hex-wrench too stowed in the base, but charged about as much as for the 5DIV bracket. I hope they get their act together for the new bodies coming up.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 14, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Canon has never been known to make any "video centric" stills camera. I know for a while there was some talk of them abandoning the conventional 1D,5D,6D lineup of full frame cameras. But now that we see there's a camera named the R5 with specs and controls similar to what one would expect from a 5D, I think it's only logical to expect that the R6 will just be a 6D successor. I doubt that they're going towards any kind of "video centric" camera the way sony has with the A7S. And why would they? Canon has any number of cinema cameras they're ready to sell you if you want to shoot primarily video. I also suspect Canon is a little leery to make any sort of video centric stills camera after the monumental flop that the 1DC was.


So was the 1DC a video centric stills camera or a stills centric video camera? Confused.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 14, 2020)

gbc said:


> So two card slots is great... Do we even know what kind of cards?


Poker


----------



## telemaque (Feb 14, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> There are TWO "types" of 8K resolution:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the calculation. Let's see if Canon will target academy ratio or the TV one.

What I wish to see now: the final quality of video. I hope we will see sharp video quality. 
In the past, the Canon video quality was not really sharp and this was annoying when filming landscape, seaside with surfers etc.

The logic would be very sharp 8k, sharp 4K, less to not sharp HD.
That way people could choose the level of sharpness they want by chosing the right video definition.
If you are not looking for a lot of sharpness ie details, you don't need a very high resolution.
An interview in HD is good enough. Don't want to have the details of the skin...

Let's see what Canon will offer on that side?!


----------



## Max TT (Feb 14, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Hi Mike. So what is the latest on Sonyalpha? Are Sony now looking to exit camera business? Has it been announced yet or they waiting for the Canon RS to be announced first?
> a garbage truck dumped a box of used Sony mirrorless cameras on my nature strip last night. Thought about calling Salvos and ask them to collect.



If Sony is smart they should have a significant sale to lock people into their system before Canon drops their new body/bodies


----------



## addola (Feb 14, 2020)

AEWest said:


> With all this talk about lenses and potential camera prices, not much has been said about the sensor itself. Will it be a stacked sensor like the patent Canon published on Dec 21, 2017? The press release talks about an all new sensor (probably not just because it is likely 45 mp).
> As an example the A9 has a stacked sensor that allows it to shoot 20fps.



Canon PowerShot G7X III has a 1-inch, 20.1MP, stacked sensor. Some people suspect it's a Sony sensor but I highly doubt it; I think it is made by Canon. So I wouldn't be surprised if the new FF sensor is indeed a stacked sensor.


----------



## davo (Feb 14, 2020)

So there is no physical remote port on the R5? I am not seeing the symbol for one on the port covers. I use cabled remotes a ton. Love them, hard to lose.


----------



## telemaque (Feb 14, 2020)

davo said:


> So there is no physical remote port on the R5? I am not seeing the symbol for one on the port covers. I use cabled remotes a ton. Love them, hard to lose.



Indeed not seen on the video. Maybe wireless control?


----------



## canonnews (Feb 14, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> The A/D stage can definitely be a bottleneck in some cases. For example, if it takes 50ms to perform a single full-sensor readout, you're not going to do more than 20fps no matter how fast everything downstream is. Remember, with current sensor tech you can't start a new exposure "from the top" before the sensor is completely flushed. And if that 50ms is reduced to 12ms by switching to 12-bit ADC mode, that's going to enable all sorts of stuff even if the downstream pipeline bottlenecks below 4x speedup.



I'm going to drop in this at the end. Canon uses slope comparator ADC's on their sensors, so yes, it's double the time for each increased bit.

sensor speed was most certainly one of the critical bottle necks - consider Canon couldn't even do full width 4K until this generation of sensor started with the 32.5MP APS-C sensor and their rolling shutter was atrocious before.

the 32.5MP sensor jumped the performance of the APS-C sensors a ton using the same DIGIC version.

This is kind of why I'm stoked right now - not really because of the R5 because it what is the percursor for (much like that petapixel article). I wrote my thoughts on my website about all this is the Rs and R1,etc.. but really to summarize.. we live in a Canon world were we just could have a 90MP R5s running at 10fps this year. It would have been impossible to even rationally contemplate that a year ago.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> I haven't touched that button in 8 years.


I only started using it a couple of years ago. But overall, out of the 5 buttons in that row I only use 'rate' and 'delete'.


----------



## davo (Feb 14, 2020)

telemaque said:


> Indeed not seen on the video. Maybe wireless control?


I am guessing that will be the case :-( If so I think its the only canon without one. The R does and the 1D does, etc...why remove it for your flagship mirrorless :-( Wireless works but needs batteries and is easily lost. I assume a phone app will be an option as well but again...it makes things more complicated and trouble-prone for no reason.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 14, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Right, but like I said, it was a massive failure. I think maybe the starting MSRP of 15 thousand goddamn dollars might have had something a lot to do with it, but still, it flopped.



--- What do you mean it flopped? I've got FOUR of the 1Dc's myself! I think we paid about $20,000 CANADIAN per camera but that included VERY NICE Canon CNE prime cinema EOS lenses for each camera. We bought Cinema Zooms later!

Actually, quite a few Hollywood people bought it. 

I am making an estimate that 2000 of them were sold in the LA/Vancouver/Toronto/New York commercial video and Hollywood production corridors. That Canon CLOG is very nice to use and the 4K imagery when you have good lighting is quite exquisite. I do must admit low light was quite noisy BUT since I've mostly lit for industrial warehouse situations, it was never an issue! And being very rugged, our 1Dc's have been to SPACE !!! (i.e. higher than 300,000 feet or 91.4 km when packaged in a proper High-and-Low-Temp-resistant/EMI/RFI/Rad-Hardened box -- we used pressurized Helium to protect the cameras!)

---

This Canon R5 will likely ALSO be used for C-Cam and Crash Cam Hollywood and Commercial cinematography at 8K 24 fps or 120 fps 4K. When Canon comes out with a DCI 8K 60 fps or 120 fps version of the C700/C500 mk3 then people will start to REALLY take those cameras seriously UNLESS a certain very famous media company beats them to the punch with SOMETHING NEW and INSANELY GREAT !!!!!


---


----------



## canonnews (Feb 14, 2020)

davo said:


> So there is no physical remote port on the R5? I am not seeing the symbol for one on the port covers. I use cabled remotes a ton. Love them, hard to lose.


it could be that cover on the bottom right of the camera is the remote connection much like the 5D IV.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 14, 2020)

davo said:


> So there is no physical remote port on the R5? I am not seeing the symbol for one on the port covers. I use cabled remotes a ton. Love them, hard to lose.





telemaque said:


> Indeed not seen on the video. Maybe wireless control?



Uh, that's the round rubber cover on the bottom right of the _front_ of the body, the same place as in the 5D4.


----------



## ChockstoneMike (Feb 14, 2020)

danski0224 said:


> That "thunk" was Sony falling over...
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting on 5DSR replacement.



I wonder if they are still considering an R5s (aka Mirrorless 5DSR II)? Exciting to see Canon finally awake at the wheel, but for 5DSR landscape shooters not interested in video or FPS this would be a downgrade, at least in resolution.

Even features like IBIS aren't particularly useful when you're carrying a tripod everywhere and multi-shot doesn't work on the natural world, which moves constantly.

The only thing interesting for landscape, is a possible minor weight reduction, and hopefully some DR/shadow noise improvement. At least if they improved the battery, that wouldn't be worse.

On the plus side, I like the look of the thing. Looks more like a 5D series. The joystick and wheel are back and that touch bar is gone, all of which is great. Also the flippy screen would be helpful for low/or high shooting positions. I'm hopeful this could all lead towards an amazing R5s (mega high res) version with stripped back video and less FPS to keep the cost down. Fingers crossed!


----------



## BillB (Feb 14, 2020)

canonnews said:


> it could be that cover on the bottom right of the camera is the remote connection much like the 5D IV.



Bingo!


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 14, 2020)

ChockstoneMike said:


> I wonder if they are still considering an R5s (aka Mirrorless 5DSR II)? Exciting to see Canon finally awake at the wheel, but for 5DSR landscape shooters not interested in video or FPS this would be a downgrade, at least in resolution.



They've been doing way too much work on ultra-high-res sensors to just give up now. 83MP has been a reasonable guess given the 32MP crop sensor on the 90D/M6II, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're aiming even higher now that they've solved the readout speed issue. Given, say, a 120MP/8fps body and RF quality glass, who exactly needs medium format?


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

ChockstoneMike said:


> I wonder if they are still considering an R5s (aka Mirrorless 5DSR II)? Exciting to see Canon finally awake at the wheel, but for 5DSR landscape shooters not interested in video or FPS this would be a downgrade, at least in resolution.
> 
> Even features like IBIS aren't particularly useful when you're carrying a tripod everywhere and multi-shot doesn't work on the natural world, which moves constantly.
> 
> ...



I guess a quarter or two after R5 market intro the R5S will be announced.


----------



## Max TT (Feb 14, 2020)

So EOS R6 maybe Vegas in April or Photokina in May?

And what are the chances both R5 and R6 come in July. Would have to be a clear distinction in offering and price.

I can see a $2000 R6 and a $3500 R5.


----------



## davo (Feb 14, 2020)

canonnews said:


> it could be that cover on the bottom right of the camera is the remote connection much like the 5D IV.


Ahhhhhhh....did some googling on the IV and I bet you are right..... I feel better.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 14, 2020)

And just like that. CP+ is gone and no R5 preview.


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> And just like that. CP+ is gone and no R5 preview.


For good reasons. Perhaps WPPI is the next opportunity?


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 14, 2020)

Same weekend. I assume that will still happen


----------



## amorse (Feb 14, 2020)

reef58 said:


> Matt is taking a conservative approach and I think his information is wrong, however he just misspoke on the mirror up thing. Mistakes happen.


Yea, I don't think he's intentionally being controversial, but it's hard to take this serious when he starts with:

"I am not here to bash Canon" 

and follows that a few minutes later with 

"8K is 4 times the amount of data, you are going to destroy your cards and potentially have, you know, a camera that is really going to have overheating issues if they don't cripple the video functionally, which they almost certainly are, if you haven't opened your eyes to what Canon always does. It always gets cropped. The frame rate and codec options are always limited."

I don't usually mind his videos, and I don't think it's unfair to ask what compromises might come with some of these specs, but saying you're not here to bash Canon and then later talking about how Canon always cripples their cameras and will do it here too just feels a bit disingenuous.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> For good reasons. Perhaps WPPI is the next opportunity?



(Google Translation of Japanese Text)

Notice of cancellation: (Thursday February 13, 2020 at 7pm - Pacific Time)

As the prospects for effective remedies and countermeasures
against the new coronavirus are uncertain, the health and
safety aspects of the visitors are considered first, and as
a result, the event will be held in Pacifico Yokohama
for four days from February 27.

We have decided to cancel the planned CP + 2020

--

We can assume Canon will do ANOTHER Press Release with the NEW specs on full display!

My guess we will POSSIBLY see an updated press release on this coming Monday (Feb 17, 2020)!

--


----------



## unfocused (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Except we're rapidly approaching a tipping point where Canon wants us all to join RF, and quickly. They won't force us, but goodness knows they can overtly play favorites with new bodies and refresh cycles. RF will be more frequently updated and RF will lead new generations of bodies and have us wait and hope for an EF equivalent that may never arrive. Each cycle of that peels some more of us off to RF.
> 
> I just think simultaneous is a super friendly move for folks like me. Minimize buyers' remorse and you increase your chances of getting my money. But I'm not sure you can win the market with that approach.
> 
> - A


I guess I just disagree with the basic premise that Canon is able and willing to manipulate the market in favor of mirrorless. It seems like a very risky strategy in a shrinking market to push about half of your customers to a new format, especially when you have have essentially cut everyone loose with the RF mount. Yes, Canon wants to sell mirrorless cameras and they want to sell expensive RF lenses. But, I'm pretty sure they have done some serious cost-benefit analysis on neglecting/abandoning current DSLR users. The probably have a pretty good idea of what percentage they can convert and what percentage they can't. And, let's admit that they also want to sell DSLRs and EF lenses -- which are probably much more profitable now anyway.

Even if they feel they can convert 80% of full frame DSLR users to mirrorless, I doubt they want to lose that remaining 20%. Everyone says "Canon is going to force us to..." But, last I checked, they don't have a gun to my head. 

I'm an R user. I like the system. But, there are things that DSLRs do better. Maybe Canon can close that gap with the next generation of R cameras (and until the R5 is released and we see how it works in the field, we won't know). As an R user, I'm skeptical. But, even if they achieve DSLR speed and quality autofocus and OVF responsiveness, I'm sure they realize that there is a lag between having a product available and having customers adopt that product. The other point I keep trying to make is that DSLR development is not going to be frozen. The 1Dx shows that. We have yet to see how it performs, but if it comes close to the promise, I think it could provide some evidence that Canon is telling the truth when they say they intend to continue to develop both systems. 

You say Canon wants us to join the mirrorless market. But it's also possible Canon wants us to have at least two bodies -- mirrorless for what it does best and DSLR for what it does best. In fact, they have probably figured out that there are people like me who bought the RF 24-105 because it was more convenient than constantly switching to an adapter when changing lenses from one body to another. 

Now, no one can decipher the mysteries of Canon's marketing and development strategies, so I'm certainly not saying a simultaneous release will happen. Just, from my perspective, I think it might be the strategy that carries the least risk.


----------



## David - Sydney (Feb 14, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Sorry I misunderstood you. In that case, it seems like you're asking an obvious question, which is "does everyone else want matching card slots, which will in turn enable higher speed shooting," to which I'm sure the answer is a resounding "yes," despite that it will increase the cost of using the camera. In my observation, not many forumers here would elect for lower specs, when given the choice, although for this one issue, you are obviously one exception.


Maybe not just one exception. Video recording will most likely need CFExpress unless the higher speeds will use external recorders. USH-II SD cards should be fine for stills shooting. Dual CFExpress cards will place a heavy cost burden on the camera until different suppliers and prices come down significantly. All the 1DXiii pricing I am seeing has a single card/reader and body bundled


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 14, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Have you ever used a push-pull zoom? There's no zoom ring. You move the barrel in and out by moving your gripping hand forward and back. No zoom helicoids inside the barrel. No rotational motion. It's like a small frame mounted bicycle pump. Two tubes, one inside the other, that lengthen and contract by moving one end in and out.



Indeed I own a few classic Nikon push pull zooms. No worries about the friction or wear to rotate a zoom ring when pushing or pulling.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 14, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Maybe not just one exception. Video recording will most likely need CFExpress unless the higher speeds will use external recorders. USH-II SD cards should be fine for stills shooting. Dual CFExpress cards will place a heavy cost burden on the camera until different suppliers and prices come down significantly. All the 1DXiii pricing I am seeing has a single card/reader and body bundled


Valid points. Canon likes different format cards (as least they did in the 5D and 7D), so I think that's a definite possibility. They could also pull a "Nikon" and offer consumers the choice of dual SDII or dual CFExpress. I think it comes down to what the price of the R5 is. If it's a $4,000 body then I'd say CFExpress for sure. If it's $3,000 it might be SDII.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 14, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Honest question from a new to Canon student: do some people really just yank the hood to zoom that one?


That's how my wife uses it. Reverses the hood and uses it as a handle to push-pull her 100-400 II. She started with the "I" version and just kept doing it with the two (muscle memory I guess). In fact, when Canon released the II version they specifically said it could be used as a push pull if people wanted. To each his or her own.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 14, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> View attachment 188674



Does it make you feel bad when others are being polite to each other? Too bad; and awkward when you have such a “clever” post and you didn’t bother to read the replies. 

Embarrassing.


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

unfocused said:


> That's how my wife uses it. Reverses the hood and uses it as a handle to push-pull her 100-400 II. She started with the "I" version and just kept doing it with the two (muscle memory I guess). In fact, when Canon released the II version they specifically said it could be used as a push pull if people wanted. To each his or her own.


yet then the reversed hood blocks lens function (on the Mk ii)


----------



## unfocused (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> yet then the reversed hood blocks lens function (on the Mk ii)


I have no idea. I just know it works for her and she can put me to shame. So, as I said, to each his/her own. I do know better than to start mansplaining the proper use of the lens to her.


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Thought this was a fair take article and makes good points.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am about 300 posts behind on this thread, but that article doesn’t seem super informed. Stuff like “Their processor division” (doesn’t canon source their DSPs?) or “the 5D4 processor is too slow” when rolling shutter, and crappy DR before that, indicate more of a sensor fab issue.

It was clear that Canon was lagging from chronic lack of investment in ILCs for a while, across multiple fronts. These improvements all took years of R&D to fix. Article makes it sound like in July of 2019 some VP said “oh hey let’s not make under spec’d camera anymore”

The R5 and the improvements that it has must have all been in the works for years.


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 14, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Even EOSHD wrote a better piece on the announcement and he's been hammering Canon continuously for the last 5+ years.



I’m assuming Andrew is a working pro—his write ups are always super harsh on canon (too harsh IMO—his focus on video means he ignores the fact that cameras like the 5D4 are superb workhorses) but at least they’re coming from a point of frustration.

Does often feel like DPR are just fanboys.


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 14, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Explain to us how you do "*8K will come with at least a 2x crop" ?
> In 3:2 you need 40+ MP! *



Don’t bother trying to explain it to the trolls. They just have it drilled in to their skulls that canon==crop


slclick said:


> Am I alone in hoping it has mismatching card slots? I seriously don't need memory cards to bankrupt me when also funding a new body and L plate. I bet if I shot video I would think differently but with stills, I am good with one of each.



I generally shoot raw+jpg and would love mismatched slots for that reason. But I remember sucking it up on CF cards for my 20D back in the day so I’ll deal either way


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 14, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> There seems to be another expert, Matt Granger, who tries to warn the public from being over excited, because - we are talking Canon here, right? ... And historically inaccurate rumour site information too.
> 
> His take is, that R5 might be able to do 20 fps only with a mirror up. Somehow he forgot, he's "analysing" a mirrorless camera. So much for those youtube experts ....



I was going to say "be nice to the nikon shooters, they're still recovering from the underwhelming D6" but then I watched the video and holy crap. He reads the "8K video" line and then says "this is just marketing guff"

The silly thing is, by 2021 8K is likely to be standard equipment on a high end ILC. "But heat!!" people say. Remember when the A7R overheated after like five minutes of video if it was more than 70 degrees out? Fixed. "You can't process the signals that fast!" one step down on a fab process and suddenly you can.

Folks just *cannot friggin imagine* that canon can pull off decent specs ahead of Sony for once, despite Canon clearly saying FOR YEARS they were late to mirrorless and late to 4K and have learned from it. Despite the fact that Canon _literally makes equipment that makes computer chips_. Lots of us have been hard on canon—rightly so—but it's from a place of "why hasn't canon invested in this ARGH" not "there is magic pixie dust in sony fab plans that canon will never have"

Edit: And then there's a whole thing about "CROP!!!!" when he's clearly conflating aspect ratios and crop factors. I really like Matt's channel but all that plus the "mirror lock up" thing just makes me wonder if he rushed this one out without thinking.

Edit 2: "You're not going to be able to get 8K RAW out of this!" and then in the same breath, saying "It's going to be MJPEG which is huge" (aka high bit rate) and immediately says "It's going to be a very limited bit rate" WOW.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I’m assuming Andrew is a working pro—his write ups are always super harsh on canon (too harsh IMO—his focus on video means he ignores the fact that cameras like the 5D4 are superb workhorses) but at least they’re coming from a point of frustration.
> 
> Does often feel like DPR are just fanboys.


Andrew decided one day not long ago to (out of the blue) post politically charged stuff on the EOS HD facebook page. That’s his page. His prerogative. 

As expected, he elicited a swarm of negative reaction from half his audience, and more from others. Many reactions were like mine that simply suggested “Hey, we come here for camera talk. Not politics. You’re not doing your professional page any service here”. (I'm paraphrasing, but it was close to that.

He snapped back at me and others. Several folks told him “ok, we will just unfollow you if this is where your page is going and how you will treat your fans”. He then eventually, on facebook, on the EOSHD page, told me to “Go F**k myself” because he didnt like much of his audience understandably reacting the way they did.

So since then, Ive not followed him anymore.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 14, 2020)

KeithBreazeal said:


> I did a quick size comparison between R & R5 using the mount as a reference. The R5 is taller with the difference being between the bottom of the body to the bottom of the mount. The R5 is also wider from the mount to the right edge of the body.


 Was thew one on page three not good enough?


privatebydesign said:


> View attachment 188632


----------



## photographer (Feb 14, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I guess I just disagree with the basic premise that Canon is able and willing to manipulate the market in favor of mirrorless. It seems like a very risky strategy in a shrinking market to push about half of your customers to a new format, especially when you have have essentially cut everyone loose with the RF mount. Yes, Canon wants to sell mirrorless cameras and they want to sell expensive RF lenses. But, I'm pretty sure they have done some serious cost-benefit analysis on neglecting/abandoning current DSLR users. The probably have a pretty good idea of what percentage they can convert and what percentage they can't. And, let's admit that they also want to sell DSLRs and EF lenses -- which are probably much more profitable now anyway.
> 
> Even if they feel they can convert 80% of full frame DSLR users to mirrorless, I doubt they want to lose that remaining 20%. Everyone says "Canon is going to force us to..." But, last I checked, they don't have a gun to my head.
> 
> ...



If Canon wanted people to have dslr and r, then it doesn't do R with a new bayonet. Who wants to carry both sets of lenses?


----------



## freejay (Feb 14, 2020)

I don't know if this was covered here already, but any idea what this (see orange marking) might be?

Maybe some part of a cooling system?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 14, 2020)

This thread is getting repetitive  



freejay said:


> I don't know if this was covered here already, but any idea what this (see orange marking) might be?
> 
> Maybe some part of a cooling system?
> 
> View attachment 188681


----------



## Quackator (Feb 14, 2020)

The R5 unlike the R doesn't have a shutter anymore that closes 
when you take off the lens, as it seems from pics with the exposed
sensor visible.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 14, 2020)

Quackator said:


> The R5 unlike the R doesn't have a shutter anymore that closes
> when you take off the lens, as it seems from pics with the exposed
> sensor visible.


Those are the promotional pics where the camera is always shown with the naked sensor.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Feb 14, 2020)

Sounds amazing from the little that was disclosed and based on the original rumour. I dread to think what the price will be and how that will destroy the trade in price of the EOS R.

Contrary to most previous posts, I love the EOS R with the exception of the low FPS rate which the R5 should resolve with a mind blowing rate.

I need to sell something & save up quickly!


----------



## padam (Feb 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Sounds amazing from the little that was disclosed and based on the original rumour. I dread to think what the price will be and how that will destroy the trade in price of the EOS R.
> 
> Contrary to most previous posts, I love the EOS R with the exception of the low FPS rate which the R5 should resolve with a mind blowing rate.
> 
> I need to sell something & save up quickly!


I mean the EOS R was selling new for 1300-1500$ recently
So a camera costing over 3500$ will not make it depreciate in any significant way.


----------



## freejay (Feb 14, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> This thread is getting repetitive


Thanks for not answering my question...
No, I did not read all 780 posts...


----------



## sulla (Feb 14, 2020)

unfortunately this forum does not have a search function in a specific therad - or at least I didn't find it -, so please forgive if I repeat something that has been asked or said here before:
There was no word on GPS in this camera, only that you could linkt the camera to a smartphone to get GPS information from the smartphone (so the R5 must have bluetooth). Given the smallness of GPS receiving units today, do you think this is really an omission in this camera? Other Canon EOS have GPS built in nowadays as a standard.
I wouldn't mind as I have the hot-shoe GPS-E2 receiver, but I still would find it strange not to include this in the R5.
At least it has WiFi built in. That is a great feature.


----------



## yeahright (Feb 14, 2020)

freejay said:


> Thanks for not answering my question...
> No, I did not read all 780 posts...


it's the remote shutter release port on the front of the camera


----------



## sulla (Feb 14, 2020)

freejay said:


> Thanks for not answering my question...
> No, I did not read all 780 posts...


The link in the answer was clickable to the specific post that answered your question, so your question was answered indeed.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 14, 2020)

freejay said:


> Thanks for not answering my question...
> No, I did not read all 780 posts...



I did answer, you could've followed the link...


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Feb 14, 2020)

Cyborx said:


> And what brainless idiot will buy the 7400 euro 'flagship' 1Dx Mark III now this news is out?
> Cannot believe Canon is charging 7400 for a product that is already outdated before it hits the market.
> I am so happy there is competition now, else this R5 mirrorless would cost 7400 euro too..


 If you have to ask , then you're not part of the target market. Ignorance is bliss. Leave the real pros in peace and don't get in their way.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 14, 2020)

Cyborx said:


> And what brainless idiot



I think there's a "brainless idiot" here all right but it's not who you think it is


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 14, 2020)

sulla said:


> There was no word on GPS in this camera, only that you could linkt the camera to a smartphone to get GPS information from the smartphone



I really hope there will be a GPS in the R5. 5DIV has it, 1DXIII has it. Although R and RP don't. So there's something to worry about, but GPS will never be in the pre-release highlights.

Linking the camera to smartphone - thanks but no thanks. Increased battery consumption for both camera and smartphone.


----------



## Trankilstef (Feb 14, 2020)




----------



## KeithBreazeal (Feb 14, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Was thew one on page three not good enough?


Dammit! I didn't see that. LOL


----------



## freejay (Feb 14, 2020)

yeahright said:


> it's the remote shutter release port on the front of the camera


Thanks!


----------



## freejay (Feb 14, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I did answer, you could've followed the link...


My apologies! I didn't realize that...


----------



## BillB (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Edit: And then there's a whole thing about "CROP!!!!" when he's clearly conflating aspect ratios and crop factors. I really like Matt's channel but all that plus the "mirror lock up" thing just makes me wonder if he rushed this one out without thinking.


We are a week or so ahead of most of the rest of cameracentric cyberspace in digesting the R5 and R6 rumors. When this first started, there were people here on CR who we were saying much the same stuff. Then the R5 and R6 rumors went CR3 and things started seeming more real (but there are still people here talking about cripple hammers and nerfing). The many questions that keep coming up show how little information there is about camera specifics and timelines, so it may be a little early to start bashing the usual bashers. We can hope there will be plenty of time for that later for those of who feel the need to do so."


----------



## freejay (Feb 14, 2020)

sulla said:


> The link in the answer was clickable to the specific post that answered your question, so your question was answered indeed.


Sorry. I didn't realize that...


----------



## freejay (Feb 14, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Savy. Just enough info to keep the buzz until CP+. "Industry leader" in mirrorless would be their marketing mantra on July 24th


There will be no CP+ unfortunately... They canceled it due to the Corona virus situation. See: http://www.cpplus.jp/en/


----------



## bigchicken (Feb 14, 2020)

What do we think the price will be?


Context: I need a hybrid cam, mostly for video (with good slow-mo), size doesn't matter, am weighing up a used 1DX Mark II + 24-70mm f2.8 = £3700 against holding out for this with the RF 24-70mm.


----------



## sulla (Feb 14, 2020)

bigchicken said:


> What do we think the price will be?
> 
> 
> Context: I need a hybrid cam, mostly for video (with good slow-mo), size doesn't matter, am weighing up a used 1DX Mark II + 24-70mm f2.8 = £3700 against holding out for this with the RF 24-70mm.


I'd say close to the 5D3 when it came out, but that's only a wild guess.


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 14, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I really hope there will be a GPS in the R5. 5DIV has it, 1DXIII has it. Although R and RP don't. So there's something to worry about, but GPS will never be in the pre-release highlights.
> 
> Linking the camera to smartphone - thanks but no thanks. Increased battery consumption for both camera and smartphone.


GPS is one more power drain on a system that will want to get as many shots as possible out of a charge. If it’s omitted from R5, it could be to reduce power consumption.


----------



## sulla (Feb 14, 2020)

bigchicken said:


> Context: I need a hybrid cam, mostly for video (with good slow-mo), size doesn't matter, am weighing up a used 1DX Mark II + 24-70mm f2.8 = £3700 against holding out for this with the RF 24-70mm.


Viedeo-wise this will be a huge difference: 1Dx + EF 24-70 = absolutely no image stabilisation, you'll need a tripod and that good-old mirror is just an obstacle. R5 + RF 24-70 IS = double stabilisation IBIS + IS, you can shoot a lot without a tripod.
These alternatives are apples and bananas.
You might be better off with an EOS R + RF 24-70 IS


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 14, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> GPS is one more power drain on a system that will want to get as many shots as possible out of a charge. If it’s omitted from R5, it could be to reduce power consumption.



But it can be disabled if you don't want to drain the battery. I do it sometimes on my 5DIV, but in many cases I find in-camera geotagging very useful.
Connecting to a phone via bluetooth in order to enable geotagging is even more power-consuming.


----------



## Hector1970 (Feb 14, 2020)

Amazing the level of responses on this compared the relatively muted response to the 1DX III.
I'm delighted Canon is bringing out such a camera but where are they going from here.
I'm sure it will be very expensive but why will you ever need to buy another one?
12/20 FPS and 48 MP, 8K and IBIS. Probably decent ISO performance. Eye tracking (The R is pretty decent already at tracking).
Canon camera business could be ******* from the perspective they have developed the ultimate mirrored and mirrorless camera in quick succession. What would make a user upgrade from here? The glass is already near perfection. (Canon INC overall I'm sure will do perfectly fine)
I think both are an amazing achievement and a credit to Canon but some part of me feels sad in that I love new technology but its at the point of maturing and there will only be little incremental improvements from here on.

I've lived through a period of amazing technological change, and I've loved it. The invention of the mobile phone, personal computers / laptops, flat screen televisions, electric cars, the internet , google (that you could search the world and get answers back) , wikipedia (unbelievable the knowledge it contains for free).

It all just seems to be slowing down. It's all improvements now but nothing breakthrough. I'll miss it.
What was the last major invention of something we didn't have? The iPhone is the last game changer I can think of and while its got better the latest iPhone is remarkably similar to the original.
Personally I miss all that improvement and daring to believe it could be made better.
I just can't think anymore how Canon can improve the camera (or at least an improvement that I'd find great).
If they brought out next year a 200MP full frame camera at 24FPS I'm not sure it would move me.

I'll be interested in the hype cycle for R5. I'm on a very high peak of inflated expectations. I'm personally expecting near perfection. That probably won't last.


----------



## Wallybud (Feb 14, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> Amazing the level of responses on this compared the relatively muted response to the 1DX III.
> I'm delighted Canon is bringing out such a camera but where are they going from here.
> I'm sure it will be very expensive but why will you ever need to buy another one?
> 12/20 FPS and 48 MP, 8K and IBIS. Probably decent ISO performance. Eye tracking (The R is pretty decent already at tracking).
> ...



The human race will always crave more, smaller/bigger, better, faster. It will be our ultimate demise. Sad I won’t be there to capture it


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 14, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> Amazing the level of responses on this compared the relatively muted response to the 1DX III.



That's easy to explain. There's many more potential R5 users than 1DXIII users on this forum. Also, 8K video!!!


----------



## sulla (Feb 14, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> Amazing the level of responses on this compared the relatively muted response to the 1DX III.


Perhaps the 1DX3 is targeted at professionals who don't spend that much time on fora like this...
And people, myself included, who spend time on fora like this to talk about things and who have real interest in photography are limited - for finanical reasons mainly - to EOS 5-style cameras...
And people interested in rebel-style cameras are not enough interested in photography to participate in fora like this...
In all, this might be why there is the most talk about semi-professional cameras here...


----------



## Stanri010 (Feb 14, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> Amazing the level of responses on this compared the relatively muted response to the 1DX III.
> I'm delighted Canon is bringing out such a camera but where are they going from here.
> I'm sure it will be very expensive but why will you ever need to buy another one?
> 12/20 FPS and 48 MP, 8K and IBIS. Probably decent ISO performance. Eye tracking (The R is pretty decent already at tracking).
> ...



I think unless Canon really messes this up by imposing artificial limitations, the technology is finally available for them to achieve most of the claims that they're saying. 

The processor should be able to do 8K Raw, very little 8K crop, 10Bit H265, 8Bit 264, 4K60 with no crop etc.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 14, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> Canon camera business could be ******* from the perspective they have developed the ultimate mirrored and mirrorless camera in quick succession.


You heard it here first folks... Their cameras are too good, Canon is *******!


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Sounds amazing from the little that was disclosed and based on the original rumour. I dread to think what the price will be and how that will destroy the trade in price of the EOS R.
> 
> Contrary to most previous posts, I love the EOS R with the exception of the low FPS rate which the R5 should resolve with a mind blowing rate.
> 
> I need to sell something & save up quickly!


Trade price of the R: That will fall deep. Future bodies will have IBIS and one without will not be competitive. However, the R is a great camera that can be kept as backup body.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

Quackator said:


> The R5 unlike the R doesn't have a shutter anymore that closes
> when you take off the lens, as it seems from pics with the exposed
> sensor visible.



Wrong conclusion: Like the in the R you can keep the sensor exposed when switching the camera off before switching lens.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 14, 2020)

Canon goes head on with most of the other brands higher priced cameras.
The A7R4 currently sells for ~4000 Euro in Germany, and this 
price will give until the R5 is finally shipping. Canon for sure will 
undercut this, so it is only a question of how deep the A7R4 falls 
until Canon determines their price.


----------



## Viggo (Feb 14, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Wrong conclusion: Like the in the R you can keep the sensor exposed when switching the camera off before switching lens.


Plus, the R5 does have a mechanical shutter.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 14, 2020)

sulla said:


> Perhaps the 1DX3 is targeted at professionals who don't spend that much time on fora like this...
> And people, myself included, who spend time on fora like this to talk about things and who have real interest in photography are limited - for finanical reasons mainly - to EOS 5-style cameras...
> And people interested in rebel-style cameras are not enough interested in photography to participate in fora like this...
> In all, this might be why there is the most talk about semi-professional cameras here...


I come here because it is far less depressing than the world news. There is actually, comparatively, good news here. I get to see beautiful work by members, get great advice, and some humor too.


----------



## mpb001 (Feb 14, 2020)

The R5 specs look spectacular, however, I don’t shoot any video. I own a 5DIV, which serves my photography needs completely. I think for a Canon mirrorless R series body, the R6 may be a more interesting camera for my use, especially if it’s new sensor has great low light capabilities.


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## Max TT (Feb 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Sounds amazing from the little that was disclosed and based on the original rumour. I dread to think what the price will be and how that will destroy the trade in price of the EOS R.
> 
> Contrary to most previous posts, I love the EOS R with the exception of the low FPS rate which the R5 should resolve with a mind blowing rate.
> 
> I need to sell something & save up quickly!



The current EOS R was dead on arrival!

It simply does not compare to the others in its price range. Like the A7III. The Sony came with IBIS, dual slots, uncropped 4k and extensive lense range.

But it’s all relative, if the EOS R were $1300-$1400, then I’d say it’s priced correctly. To compete with higher end APS-C like the X-T3.

The people that bought it at +$2000 I weep for them. They were definitely drinking the Canon koolaid. 

Hopefully with the EOS R6 we see them compete in that $2000 range better. And EOS R drops down in the $1400 range with the RP in the $1000 range.


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## Viggo (Feb 14, 2020)

For those of us that couldn’t care less about video, I can’t wait to see more about the AF system. Will it, like the 1dx, track a face of someone face planting or will it give up and stop, and perhaps hunt one time like the R.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 14, 2020)

Quackator said:


> The R5 unlike the R doesn't have a shutter anymore that closes
> when you take off the lens, as it seems from pics with the exposed
> sensor visible.


I'm assuming you're assuming this just based on the press photos showing the sensor exposed on the R5. But the fact that the sensor is exposed in Canon's press photos means nothing. Even the photo of the EOS R on Canon's page shows the sensor exposed. I suspect it's because they feel that it looks more impressive in photos to have the sensor exposed as opposed to showing the shutter. But it means nothing as far as whether or not the shutter will close when you turn off the camera.






EOS-R | Canon Online Store|Canon Online Store


Buy the EOS R from Canon Online Store, with 30.3 Megapixel Full-frame CMOS sensor, DIGIC 8 Image Processor, Canon Log and 4K Video in a Lightweight, Compact Size.




shop.usa.canon.com


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## Stanri010 (Feb 14, 2020)

Quackator said:


> The R5 unlike the R doesn't have a shutter anymore that closes
> when you take off the lens, as it seems from pics with the exposed
> sensor visible.



They changed the way the shutter functions after the release of the R. For the R, the shutter comes down when the camera is turned off. On the RP, the shutter stays up to prevent damage to the shutter. That's why you can see the sensor directly in the RP and R5.


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Even if they feel they can convert 80% of full frame DSLR users to mirrorless, I doubt they want to lose that remaining 20%. Everyone says "Canon is going to force us to..." But, last I checked, they don't have a gun to my head.




Excellent post -- I appreciate your perspective.

Pivot to CR Guy's own words: 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223721066041892864
...and recognize there has to be (at a brand/segment level) some sort a tipping point to leave mirrors, Canon will know when it is, and Canon will have a plan to get to the future state.

A purge of mirrored product lines is coming. I see the crop SLR lines and less unit-moving FF SLRs going early and the bread and butter pro stuff with high L lens pullthrough going late. 'Early' is already happening (remember the 760D/77D line? will we ever see a 7D3?). But when 'late' is happening -- when they start killing off the characters I really like on this show -- is a big TBD.

- A


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## koenkooi (Feb 14, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> They changed the way the shutter functions after the release of the R. For the R, the shutter comes down when the camera is turned off. On the RP, the shutter stays up to prevent damage to the shutter. That's why you can see the sensor directly in the RP and R5.



The RP also lacks a mechanical first curtain, which I think is the real reason instead of the "RP users are dumber than R users, they will poke their fat fingers through the curtain" reason Canon gave.


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## Sharlin (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223721066041892864



Totally off topic, but you… look very different from what my mental image has been.


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

freejay said:


> I don't know if this was covered here already, but any idea what this (see orange marking) might be?
> 
> Maybe some part of a cooling system?
> 
> View attachment 188681





Presumably the remote control terminal. They're on the front now for many bodies, I presume for peaceful L-bracket coexistence:

Frequent CR poster Dustin Abbott has a glamour shot of the 5D4's version:


https://dustinabbott.net/wp-content/gallery/canon-5d-mark-iv-product/Canon-5D4-Product-9.jpg



- A


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Totally off topic, but you… look very different from what my mental image has been.




That snap of me on Twitter is a stock photo. I actually look like the Simpson's comic book store guy *just like you thought.  *

- A


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## Sharlin (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> They're on the front now for many bodies, I presume for peaceful L-bracket coexistence:



Also, on the R5, for peaceful tilty-flippy coexistence.


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

sulla said:


> I'd say close to the 5D3 when it came out, but that's only a wild guess.




$3499 ftw. My guess as well.

- A


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## londonxt (Feb 14, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> Amazing the level of responses on this compared the relatively muted response to the 1DX III.
> I'm delighted Canon is bringing out such a camera but where are they going from here.



The Elephant in the room for every electronic item is battery power! The tech is severely lagging.


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

sulla said:


> Perhaps the 1DX3 is targeted at professionals who don't spend that much time on fora like this...




Fair number of 1-series owners posting here in the forum. They may not be eagerly participating in this thread, however.

- A


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

Max C said:


> The current EOS R was dead on arrival!
> 
> It simply does not compare to the others in its price range. Like the A7III. The Sony came with IBIS, dual slots, uncropped 4k and extensive lense range.




That might be the wrong take for that product, IMHO. The R was never aimed at the competition. 

It was aimed at we, The EF Faithful.

EOS R was Canon saying:

Here is our first ever FF mirrorless -- get first access to skull splitting next gen glass.
It works perfectly with all your EF lenses, you so don't have to migrate -- just experiment vs. your SLR side by side or carry it as a second body
It has a 5D4 sensor and you don't have to pay a 5D4 price for it.
5D4 owners, would you like the same sensor with the tilty-flippy we didn't give to you with your SLR?
And I think a lot of folks were too eager to wait for a next version and jumped in early. Canon accomplished what they needed to: build energy and enthusiasm around the platform and get folks thinking about the future. That's it.

- A


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## Ian_of_glos (Feb 14, 2020)

photographer said:


> If Canon wanted people to have dslr and r, then it doesn't do R with a new bayonet. Who wants to carry both sets of lenses?


As a long term 5D mark3/mark 4 user I think I am probably the type of customer that Canon had in mind when developing the EOS R5. If the final specifications are anything like what was in the development announcement then I will definitely be buying one, not as a replacement for my 5D mark 4 but to use alongside it. At first I will continue to use my 5D mark 4 for most of my work, and only replace my 24-105 F4L and 50mm F1.2L EF lenses with the RF equivalents. So for a while at least I will be using both types of lens, depending what type of work I am planning to do. 
There is a good chance that I will keep my 5D mark 4 and most of my EF lenses for many years and only replace them if there is a compelling reason to do so.


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## amorse (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> That might be the wrong take for that product, IMHO. The R was never aimed at the competition.
> 
> It was aimed at we, The EF Faithful.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agreed - they presented the R as a complement to the rest of the system, not an encouragement to drop everything and move over. "You don't switch to the EOS R system; it seamlessly integrates with your current EOS equipment." 

It's been a while since I saw some of the R announcement (the link above) and they openly make those points. They're ok not being first, they're not making the rest of the system irrelevant, they're just creating some new opportunities for glass and trying to make the mirrorless branch of digital photography a somewhat different and complementary segment to the rest of it.


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

Ian_of_glos said:


> As a long term 5D mark3/mark 4 user I think I am probably the type of customer that Canon had in mind when developing the EOS R5. If the final specifications are anything like what was in the development announcement then I will definitely be buying one, not as a replacement for my 5D mark 4 but to use alongside it.




+1 on side by side use with EF with a similar usage/'design language', it's a natural next step for RF. I honestly thought they'd push that harder with the EOS R

Goals of the R5 at Canon (if I had to guess, in no particular order):

We have a plan, and that plan is ambitious: the first (?) of many FF price points / market segments will be nailed down and more are coming.
Market perception: shot across the bow to Sony. Honeymoon's over. Don't mind us grown-ups measuring the drapes as we execute our plan to win the market.
Photographer perception: deliver the first legitimately rock solid professional FF mirrorless instrument and show everyone what mirrorless hasn't had so far -- confidence, efficiency and reliability.*
Units: Try to get every wedding photog on earth to make this the second camera they carry, if not the first
* = the hardest sell. Sony did very well to muddle 'what it means to be pro'. I don't want to start a philosophical conversation about what a pro 'is'. But Sony clearly demonstrated that some (heretofore stuffier) perspectives on what professional gear needs to look/feel/use like were not entirely true, and that 'high end enthusiast' gear could damn well do professional work.

Canon needs to somewhat dissuade Sony folks of that notion with the R5. Are you sure you don't need a bullet-proof professional instrument? Because here's what one looks like. Specs are great, but gear that never lets you down is greater.

But again, that will be the hardest needle to move. Perceptions are tough that way.

- A


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

amorse said:


> Absolutely agreed - they presented the R as a complement to the rest of the system, not an encouragement to drop everything and move over. "You don't switch to the EOS R system; it seamlessly integrates with your current EOS equipment."




That's the hitch with EOS R vs. (hopefully) R5: glass was seamless, but interface / handling / usage was not.

I think 5-series-ish controls and creature comforts (thumbwheel, I'm looking at you) will do R5 a world of good. 

*...as will a 5D5 that isn't just trying to be a 5D4 iteration.* The 5D5 should have these R5 internals, sure, but I hope they also (very intelligently / delicately) take a step towards whatever menus, usage the R5 has. The R5 can't be seamless with the 5D5 all by itself or it will look/feel just like a 5D. The 5D5 needs to carefully tiptoe towards mirrorless's interface to make the 'SLR on one shoulder / mirrorless on the other and it's seamless to switch' vision come true.

- A


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## Viggo (Feb 14, 2020)

londonxt said:


> The Elephant in the room for every electronic item is battery power! The tech is severely lagging.


Considering that the 1dx3 has doubled it’s capacity from the 1dx2 I say Canon has made some pretty amazing progress in battery life department. And that is NO DOUBT because mirrorless needs a serious bump in battery life.


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## davo (Feb 14, 2020)

8K query. So the flagship 1Dx doesn't do i8K at 20 mp but the R5 can at 45 mp. Is it harder to generate 8K at lower megapixels or easier?


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## Proscribo (Feb 14, 2020)

davo said:


> 8K query. So the flagship 1Dx doesn't do i8K at 20 mp but the R5 can at 45 mp. Is it harder to generate 8K at lower megapixels or easier?


8K = 33mp ~ 45mp on a 3:2 sensor. So it is slightly challenging to do 8K on a 20mp sensor.


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

londonxt said:


> The Elephant in the room for every electronic item is battery power! The tech is severely lagging.




The world cannot hear your over the singing angels they claim to hear while shooting 20 fps FF cameras. 

Battery power matters, I don't deny. But we're at the point that people are frothing at the mouth for what mirrorless can do in spectacular disproportion to their concern over batteries. People are just kind of dealing with the battery by packing an extra one or two, or they are pleasantly surprised with how long these mirrorless cameras actually perform in the field (with their preferred use-case, workflow, etc.) vs. estimates and specs.

- A


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## sanj (Feb 14, 2020)

Can anyone guess what the crop factor will be on video at 4k? I am hoping for no crop. If on 8k it is 1.6x, at 6k 1.2x, then perhaps at 4k no crop? I am not at all knowledgeable about this... So any guesses?


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 14, 2020)

Max C said:


> The current EOS R was dead on arrival!
> 
> It simply does not compare to the others in its price range. Like the A7III. The Sony came with IBIS, dual slots, uncropped 4k and extensive lense range.
> 
> ...


I don’t feel bad at all for paying what I paid. No weeping necessary.


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## koenkooi (Feb 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> Can anyone guess what the crop factor will be on video at 4k? I am hoping for no crop. If on 8k it is 1.6x, at 6k 1.2x, then perhaps at 4k no crop? I am not at all knowledgeable about this... So any guesses?



A 1.6x crop on 8k would make it an 80+MPix sensor.


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## jayphotoworks (Feb 14, 2020)

I've been very surprised of this recent announcement. It's like Canon has suddenly decided to hell with product segmentation. A lot of this functionality will surpass its flagships capabilities in the stills and cinema space, not necessarily entirely as a whole, but in meaningful bit and pieces here and there. If the final product is as announced, it will surpass Panasonic's efforts and most of Sony's current models. I'm not even certain the A7SIII will be safe. But competition always leads to better products for the consumers. If Canon has taken a different path and continues to do so, it will be like the "good ol" days when each model had all of this tech leapfrogging each other (Canon vs Nikon days)

With that being said, I'm in no rush to jump ship from Sony yet and I might still pick up the upcoming A7SIII, if only because I now have a stable of Sony lenses and while some of those are not exactly burgeoning in quality like the newer RF lenses, some of them are great for lightweight cinema work and I have a lot of choices across different manufacturers. IMO, The RF mount needs more time to get there. 

On a side note, I pre-ordered an S20 Ultra which should be here by the first week of March. Literally for the first time ever, given Samsung's market share, there will be a ton of people with 8K cameras in their pockets by March.. I guess it can be a C cam to their Canon R5s..


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## davidhfe (Feb 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> Can anyone guess what the crop factor will be on video at 4k? I am hoping for no crop. If on 8k it is 1.6x, at 6k 1.2x, then perhaps at 4k no crop? I am not at all knowledgeable about this... So any guesses?



Sorry to pick on you a bit here, but I am blown away by how effective the youtube and camera site contingent has been at drilling in "anything canon offers for video will be a crop!" in to people's minds. We're at the point where people are talking about crop factors that are physically impossible. There are a lot of folks who don't understand the technical side of things (which is fine!) who have been done a real disservice by photos sites/etc.

To actually answer your question, my *guess* would be:
8k30 - Full width from a 45 mp sensor. You cannot "crop in" on a 45 mp sensor and get an 8k image*
4k30 - Full width, oversampled from 8k
4k60 - Either line skipping, pixel binning or (most likely) a 1.5x crop (about super 35, will work great with EFS lenses an adaptor!)
4k120 - 2.0 crop

What modes have what limits beyond that is anyone's *guess*:
- I am not expecting anything RAW
- Likely 10bit 4:2:2 C-Log with 2 H.265 compression options for most modes
- I expect DPAF to work in 8/4K 30fps. Maybe 60fps. Unlikely 120fps.

*there are a lot of shenanigans that COULD happen here. In camera up-scaling from a 6K image, etc. Canon would never EVER live it down, though. It would be a serious mistake to put out a development announcement with limited details, and have one of those details be BS.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 14, 2020)

Based on some comments, one would thing that all the mirrorless negatives have evaporated, almost overnight. How is this possible? I think we're simply hearing enthusiasm for something many have not really fully tried/evaluated and in due course, they may be overjoyed or still somewhat frustrated. I'm sure I'll still have frustrations.

Jack


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## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> I can already tell you what the resolution will be for STILLS PHOTOS when Canon says the R5 can capture 8K video!
> 
> ...



You also need to account for the desire for both dimensions in the 3:2 still images to be divisible by 8 for efficient JPEG compression.


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 14, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Based on some comments, one would thing that all the mirrorless negatives have evaporated, almost overnight. How is this possible? I think we're simply hearing enthusiasm for something many have not really fully tried/evaluated and in due course, they may be overjoyed or still somewhat frustrated. I'm sure I'll still have frustrations.
> 
> Jack



I think you're seeing two things:
- If you're not interested in mirrorless you're probably not hanging out in this thread.
- There are a lot of folks who have said things like "all things being equal I'd rather have an OVF" But this camera isn't "equal" a 5D5 isn't going to have 12fps mechanical with a mirror actuating up and down—that's probably sticking to the 1 series.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> That second part of what you said. That. They WILL happen. No question. But yes, the FF line gets fleshed out first. We have Crop DSLR EF mount cameras now. We will have Crop RF MILCs to replace them



We have crop mirrorless Canon bodies now, and have had them for some time. It's called the EOS M series.


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## Sharlin (Feb 14, 2020)

davo said:


> 8K query. So the flagship 1Dx doesn't do i8K at 20 mp but the R5 can at 45 mp. Is it harder to generate 8K at lower megapixels or easier?



I think it would be good for you to think for a bit about what you’re asking and engage in some basic third-grade pen&paper arithmetic. Or use a calculator if you have to.


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> Can anyone guess what the crop factor will be on video at 4k? I am hoping for no crop. If on 8k it is 1.6x, at 6k 1.2x, then perhaps at 4k no crop? I am not at all knowledgeable about this... So any guesses?




You need the basic resolution of the video from the sensor to hit a specific video res. So it's the other way around from the way you have it.

For 8K in a 16:9 ratio captured on a 3:2 sensor, you need a 39-45 MP sensor (there are a few different 8K formats apparently) so you'll use just about the whole damn sensor to get that video resolution. Most people are assuming that Canon will more or less do the minimum necessary to reach 8K, we're means the R5 will have a 39-45 MP sensor and 8K will have little to no crop at all.

For 4K, they clearly don't need 39-45 MP on the sensor. So I'd assume that Canon has to choose to go with a pretty healthy crop (which is less heavy computationally to do, but it annoyingly changes your lens' FOV) or avoid a crop and do a lot of data handling to bin/sample/process the entire frame. Either, in theory, are possible, but having your FOV change when you drop from 8K to 4K would be kind of annoying, right?

(Video nerds: do I get a passing grade there?)

- A


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## Joules (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> What modes have what limits beyond that is anyone's *guess*:
> - I am not expecting anything RAW
> - Likely 10bit 4:2:2 C-Log with 2 H.265 compression options for most modes
> - I expect DPAF to work in 8/4K 30fps. Maybe 60fps. Unlikely 120fps.


Since you mentioned the confusion about technology yourself, you sound like you know your thing. But I can't imagine the 8K 30p being anything other than RAW. What leads you to believe the opposite?

When the data comes off the sensor, it is RAW data. To change it to something else, a computationally expensive compression step would have to follow, that adds additional hardware requirements and produces heat. Just dumping the RAW to the memory card is the easier option. That's why Magic Lantern has been able to offer that for years (Yes, the new bodies are not supported). 

If Canon had a way to deal with these issues, why is the 5.5K on the 1DX III only available in RAW?


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Based on some comments, one would thing that all the mirrorless negatives have evaporated, almost overnight. How is this possible? I think we're simply hearing enthusiasm for something many have not really fully tried/evaluated and in due course, they may be overjoyed or still somewhat frustrated. I'm sure I'll still have frustrations.
> 
> Jack




True. There's nothing on the R5 spec list that says 'shoots exactly like an SLR'. I don't say that with snark, I actually mean it. It's a mirrorless camera and they sure as hell won't lean in to what it can't do.

But I agree. Folks are pumped, myself (a long time OVF devotee) included. Specs trump limitations, it would appear.

- A


----------



## Famateur (Feb 14, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> ...where are they going from here?



Some thoughts on this:

Around 1902, there was similar conjecture about invention and technology in general. The thought was, essentially, "Everything that can be invented has been invented." What followed? The next year, the Wright brothers at Kitty Hawk. After that, wireless communication, nuclear power, the internet and all the things you mentioned. I can see how it might feel similar to 1902 with cameras reaching what feels like a zenith in technical capability versus what's needed to get the job done, but...


*Low-Hanging Fruit -- *Add built-in wireless flash control to the camera body, or spot-metering at the AF point on non-1-Series bodies. 


*Computational/Algorithmic Advancements --* There's a whole new world of innovation (particularly in computational photography) waiting to be applied to professional camera systems. Advancements in AF tracking (the "deep learning" that Canon unveiled in the 1DXIII is just the beginning) will also keep the magic going for a good while yet.


*Sensor Breakthroughs -- *Though pixels can only get so small and photons will remain constant, I still think there will be breakthroughs in low-light performance, dynamic range, or other areas that will make today seem like...well...1902, so to speak. Imagine global electronic shutters that still produce clean high-ISO and/or high dynamic range images. Frame rates could be such that (given adequate light for such speeds) one could shoot a video burst, then select the desired high-res image that's perfectly timed (there are people doing this in the studio right now pulling 4K frame grabs, but this would be light years better).


*Connectivity/Integration* -- In April, Canon will launch its cloud platform "image.canon." What makes this interesting to me is that its a short-term storage solution (a data way point, if you will, on its journey to wherever it will ultimately reside). Canon doesn't have to worry about housing it indefinitely, because after 30 days, it's gone. Before then, though, the photos can be forwarded to permanent storage solutions. This can provide data redundancy/security as well as automation in workflows for professionals. Now imagine that this was transmitted straight from the camera to the cloud (5G cellular, or similar tech).


*Licensing *-- Requiring everyone to switch from "perpetual license" bodies and lenses to a subscription model...wait...

I can totally understand wondering what could possibly come next, but I'm optimistic that engineers will continue to develop new and meaningful advancements that today would blow our minds.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I think you're seeing two things:
> - If you're not interested in mirrorless you're probably not hanging out in this thread.
> - There are a lot of folks who have said things like "all things being equal I'd rather have an OVF" But this camera isn't "equal" a 5D5 isn't going to have 12fps mechanical with a mirror actuating up and down—that's probably sticking to the 1 series.




Disagree slightly. We'll get 9 or 10 fps with a mirror in a 5D5 I'd bet -- they need 5D4 people to buy these, and a modest bump makes sense. In SLR/OVF mode a 5D5 won't be a line for line match of the R5. But once the mirror is up, I believe it will be (if you don't mind doing your work through the screen instead of the VF).

- A


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

Max C said:


> It’s a $700 difference



That's for the G2 (Generation 2). You can still find copies of the SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC ("G1") for barely half the price of the G2.


----------



## reef58 (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I think you're seeing two things:
> - If you're not interested in mirrorless you're probably not hanging out in this thread.
> - There are a lot of folks who have said things like "all things being equal I'd rather have an OVF" But this camera isn't "equal" a 5D5 isn't going to have 12fps mechanical with a mirror actuating up and down—that's probably sticking to the 1 series.



I am kinda of in the camp. I have nothing against mirrorless and for some time have planned to pick up the mega pixel monster which has been rumored. My plans for that is landscape and studio work. I also own an M50 and think it is a great little camera as was my Olympus m4/3rd. That being said I do not see myself giving up the OVF on the 1D cameras for wildlife and some action stuff. At some point they will make an EVF you can look through, or maybe a hybrid. Other than that I embrace mirrorless, but understand there are still issues, so I am not convinced DSLR's are DOA.

I am also puzzled why some people say things like it is time for DSLR's to go. It is like they are personally offended by the existence of the DSLR. I find that odd to put it nicely.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

David_E said:


> In my noob days I'd use a lens hood to protect my lens because the camera magazines told me to. Got tired of that quick enough and for the past 50 years I've relied only on UV filters. Never a problem.



I shoot too much in dark places with bright light sources inside the field of view to get away with "protective" filters that can sometimes cause more harm than good if an impact or drop actually happens. So the only time I use them is if I'm shooting in blowing sand, saltwater spray, or an industrial environment that has hot metal particles or similar flying through the air. 

I've been shooting with "naked" lenses and hoods for over a decade and have never needed to get a front element replaced. On the other hand, I've replaced more than a few hoods and some of the ones I still use have battle scars and paint scrapes on them.


----------



## Talys (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I think you're seeing two things:
> - If you're not interested in mirrorless you're probably not hanging out in this thread.
> - There are a lot of folks who have said things like "all things being equal I'd rather have an OVF" But this camera isn't "equal" a 5D5 isn't going to have 12fps mechanical with a mirror actuating up and down—that's probably sticking to the 1 series.


I now have a bunch of mirrorless cameras ranging from R to a Sony I bought from a friend who wanted to get rid of his A7R3. I also have lot of OVF including a 6D2 80D and 90D. 

The truth is, I have forum discussion fatigue and I don't really care enough what people like, want to use, or whatever to keep posting about it ad nauseam. For my purposes, I use my 80D/90D way more than anything else, and mirrorless has been an unnessesary, fun and expensive diversion for me 

That doesn't mean I regret spending money on it, and it doesn't mean I won't buy more mirrored or mirrorless cameras or that any of my positions have changed much in the last year... I'm just tired of posting about it 

The R5 looks like a marvelous camera and I probably won't be able to escape buying one, not because it will help me take better pictures, but becauseit sounds like a dreamy camera with all the great things I love about various other cameras rolled into one. Hey at least I'm honest, right?


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Excellent post -- I appreciate your perspective.
> 
> Pivot to CR Guy's own words:
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you both, I can only see the 1, 5 and Rebel series keeping mirrors for now, everything else (xxxD, xxd) is most likely going to be having a logical lateral or minor upgrade with an ML equivalent in body size and specs. Yet only if the M line continues to mature.Perhaps we will see a reduction in total models, maybe down to 1, 5, R, Rebel and M.


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Totally off topic, but you… look very different from what my mental image has been.


Not me, I see him just like that and with Yennefer at his side in his dreams


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

reef58 said:


> I am also puzzled why some people say things like it is time for DSLR's to go. It is like they are personally offended by the existence of the DSLR. I find that odd to put it nicely.




I know what you mean, but I'm in a middle group: I love SLRs and prefer an OVF... but I concede that their days are numbered.

Canon won't rip them away from us or put a gun to our head as unfocused said, but they also don't have to put many more new ones out there, or release them as quickly as they release mirrorless.

Mirrors will go away except for the most demanding / discerning veteran shooters. 1-series may have a new SLR design for 10 more Olympics cycles, and 5-series will surely get a 5D5 and perhaps a 5D6. But I wouldn't hold my breath on the others. We might see the last new mirrored APS-C ever get released in the next 3-5 years.

I think everyone here concedes the transition is coming. We just spend a lot of time speculating when and which product lines go mirrorless only first.

- A


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

masterpix said:


> Again, that is where the third ring comes into use, increase the ISO and hope for the best. There is a limit to how much one can demand from a digital sensor. It can't take fast moving object is total darkness.



No matter how much shorter exposure time you can get out of raising the ISO, you can get that much more with raising to the same ISO and also opening up the aperture, assuming you can open up the aperture.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> Perhaps we will see a reduction in total models, maybe down to 1, 5, R, Rebel and M.




Total number of ILC product lines will probably go up before they go down. Canon's about to add 3-4 new ones of the RF persuasion before they tell the world their 90D, 7D2 will never get sequeled.

Migrating folks need a harbor in mind before they make the voyage, right?

- A


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## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Total number of ILC product lines will probably go up before they go down. Canon's about to add 3-4 new ones of the RF persuasion before they tell the world their 90D, 7D2 will never get sequeled.
> 
> Migrating folks need a harbor in mind before they make the voyage, right?
> 
> - A


My R meant RF which is a LOT of models in a line very soon it looks like.


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## davo (Feb 14, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> I think it would be good for you to think for a bit about what you’re asking and engage in some basic third-grade pen&paper arithmetic. Or use a calculator if you have to.


That was quite rude....but my gut instinct has always been smaller files put less on the processor and it would easier to do 8k upto a certain point but that thinking is not correct I am gathering. Don't bother replying please unless you can less dickish


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## Sharlin (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> Not me, I see him just like that and with Yennefer at his side in his dreams



Yennefer? Is that a code name for the EF 50mm f/1.4L IS USM?


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## Sharlin (Feb 14, 2020)

davo said:


> That was quite rude....but my gut instinct has always been smaller files put less on the processor and it would easier to do 8k upto a certain point but that thinking is not correct I am gathering.



8K literally means ~8000 (either 8192 or 7680 depending on who you ask) horizontal pixels. If your sensor does not have at least that number of horizontal pixels, you cannot record 8K by definition. Simple as that.


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## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Yennefer? Is that a code name for the EF 50mm f/1.4L IS USM?


I saw that he is a fan of Witcher.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Delete button works the same way and gives you some additional space on the memory card.



At the possible expense of write speed as the card becomes fragmented (due to varying file size of each image depending on scene contents).


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## davidhfe (Feb 14, 2020)

Joules said:


> Since you mentioned the confusion about technology yourself, you sound like you know your thing. But I can't imagine the 8K 30p being anything other than RAW. What leads you to believe the opposite?
> 
> When the data comes off the sensor, it is RAW data. To change it to something else, a computationally expensive compression step would have to follow, that adds additional hardware requirements and produces heat. Just dumping the RAW to the memory card is the easier option. That's why Magic Lantern has been able to offer that for years (Yes, the new bodies are not supported).
> 
> If Canon had a way to deal with these issues, why is the 5.5K on the 1DX III only available in RAW?



OK the caveat here is that I am not an electrical engineer I just spend too much time on the internet.

My (limited) understanding is that you typically have different read modes on the sensor. You can trade speed for bit depth. So for photos, you can get 14-bit RAW at about 20fps in one read mode, or if you want speed you can drop that down to 10 or 12 bit and get a faster read. Even then, you'll hit another limit and then need to find a way to read fewer pixels: that's when crops, pixel bins and line skip modes kick in.

In human brain terms, multiplying 500x800 is easier than 543x822. You can trade speed for precision.

The 1DX3 has half the pixels to deal with, so a full RAW read is easier to do—there's just less data (and heat!)

All of the above is to just get the signal processed from the photo sites to the processor. Again, I am not an EE so I don't know what parts of the process are handled on chip vs on the DSP, but when you're talking about compression being computationally expensive, that's a different problem. The conflating thing is that canon has been behind in both areas:

- They've had sensor read issues, which have shown up in crop modes and fairly severe rolling shutter
- They've had DIGIC issues, giving us compression schemes like MJPEG

Quick edit: DIGIC X seems to have solved the latter, as it can move around a gigapixel per second and full depth. The sensor read issue remains to be seen. The 1DX3 sensor is a clear improvement (5.5K raw!) but does have other limits (still has rolling shutter, DPAF modes are limited, crops, etc). There are plenty of reasons why the R5's sensor might be more technically advanced than the 1DX3, though. We're just gonna have to sit tight on that.

Regarding ML, canon engineers (like most engineers) are pretty conservative. They want to ensure the modes they offer will work for the lifespan of the camera. ML is willing to squeeze every bit of headroom the engineers put in to get better performance.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I never delete photos in-camera except for very obvious failures and the ones that have already been transferred to PC. Rate button in turn is very useful on 5DIV. I mark beginnings of sequences for stacking/blending and also some potential keepers.



I stopped doing it a long time ago after accidentally deleting some images I didn't realize were not "protected" and then using the card and overwriting some of them. Luckily, I was able to recover the ones that did not get overwritten, which was most of them.

For me there's just too much risk of accidentally deleted something unintentionally. I never delete anything until it's been backed up first.


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## Jack Douglas (Feb 14, 2020)

No apologies needed. I am an EE but retired for quite a few years and my head spins reading some (not all) of this. It's amazing what is now being done.

Jack


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## PureClassA (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> You need the basic resolution of the video from the sensor to hit a specific video res. So it's the other way around from the way you have it.
> 
> For 8K in a 16:9 ratio captured on a 3:2 sensor, you need a 39-45 MP sensor (there are a few different 8K formats apparently) so you'll use just about the whole damn sensor to get that video resolution. Most people are assuming that Canon will more or less do the minimum necessary to reach 8K, we're means the R5 will have a 39-45 MP sensor and 8K will have little to no crop at all.
> 
> ...


Yup. Pretty much. Given the capability of the Digic X based on stated 1DX3 specs, we should still get up to 4K30 on the R5 in FF readout (obviously way oversampled and then compressed down to 4K) or at the very worst some minimal cropping. I think they could surprise us with 4k60. At 4K120 you're pretty much guaranteed a crop factor. That could easily be 1:1 which would put the crop at well north of 2X. 8K of course would need the entire 16:9 area of the sensor to operate anyway, so no crop.

The Sony A7R3 is roughly the same resolution and gets 4K up to 30fps. The Yet to be released Sony A7R4 is going up to 63MP and still can't break the 30fps barrier in 4K. That's why this R5 is so stunning. It's rumored to be able to slam a LOT more data through.

Then there's the Panny S1H. It can do FF internal and external 4K up to 60fps. But that isn't a fair comparison as the sensor is only 24MP, far more similar to the 1DX3 and this rumored R6. So a FF readout on those cameras is obviously far less taxing than the R5 or A7R3 or A7R4.

We can feel very safe assuming FF reads at up to 4K30. We get fuzzy beyond that when we're talking 45MP. 

This is why if you're looking for (real world) video, the 1DX3 and R6 with its lower MP count is going to be more favorable for doing those higher frame rates.

Of course the real question mark is the fact the R5 is still being reported at 20fps still, which presume are still at 14bit RAW and not some otherwise compressed format. If so, that reopens the doors to 4K60 at FF readouts in perhaps 8bit 420 and maybe externally at better bitdepths. If you look at the Panny and Sonys, you'll see better record mode available via external only which is not at all uncommon, including the EOS R


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## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

davo said:


> So there is no physical remote port on the R5? I am not seeing the symbol for one on the port covers. I use cabled remotes a ton. Love them, hard to lose.



It looks like there's one on the front in the same spot that the 5D Mark IV has one.


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## davo (Feb 14, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> 8K literally means ~8000 (either 8192 or 7680 depending on who you ask) horizontal pixels. If your sensor does not have at least that number of horizontal pixels, you cannot record 8K by definition. Simple as that.


That makes sense


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## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

telemaque said:


> Indeed not seen on the video. Maybe wireless control?



They moved it off of the side to the front of the camera with the 5D MArk IV. There appears to be a cover in the same spot on the R5.


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## PureClassA (Feb 14, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> We have crop mirrorless Canon bodies now, and have had them for some time. It's called the EOS M series.


I have an EOS M. But they are not equipped with RF mounts obviously. Canon is going to probably over time slowly semi-replace the M with small compact crop body RF mounted rigs and a line of RF-S (like EF-S) glass.


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> I saw that he is a fan of Witcher.




Come on people. Drilling down on Twitter bios is a wee bit off topic, is it not? 

(My friend makes that show. Watch that show and help my friend out, would ya?)

- A


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## davidhfe (Feb 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> The Sony A7R3 is roughly the same resolution and gets 4K up to 30fps. The Yet to be released Sony A7R4 is going up to 63MP and still can't break the 30fps barrier in 4K. That's why this R5 is so stunning. It's rumored to be able to slam a LOT more data through.



The A7R4 is very much available for purchase, isn't it? BH lists it as in stock.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I am about 300 posts behind on this thread, but that article doesn’t seem super informed. Stuff like “Their processor division” (doesn’t canon source their DSPs?) or “the 5D4 processor is too slow” when rolling shutter, and crappy DR before that, indicate more of a sensor fab issue.
> 
> It was clear that Canon was lagging from chronic lack of investment in ILCs for a while, across multiple fronts. These improvements all took years of R&D to fix. Article makes it sound like in July of 2019 some VP said “oh hey let’s not make under spec’d camera anymore”
> 
> The R5 and the improvements that it has must have all been in the works for years.



I don't think it was lack of investment. I think it was the commitment to Dual Pixel CMOS AF and the increased processor load of twice as much data for the same resolution sensors.


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## PureClassA (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> The A7R4 is very much available for purchase, isn't it? BH lists it as in stock.


My mistake. I dont follow Sony.


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## Viggo (Feb 14, 2020)

It took my a few episodes to find out that he also played Superman


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## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I have an EOS M. But they are not equipped with RF mounts obviously. Canon is going to probably over time slowly semi-replace the M with small compact crop body RF mounted rigs and a line of RF-S (like EF-S) glass.



Not as long as EOS M is the best selling mirrorless system on the planet. APS-C and smaller is still a much larger portion of the ILC market than FF is.


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## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

Viggo said:


> It took my a few episodes to find out that he also played Superman


There's a man in that show?


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## sanj (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Sorry to pick on you a bit here, but I am blown away by how effective the youtube and camera site contingent has been at drilling in "anything canon offers for video will be a crop!" in to people's minds. We're at the point where people are talking about crop factors that are physically impossible. There are a lot of folks who don't understand the technical side of things (which is fine!) who have been done a real disservice by photos sites/etc.
> 
> To actually answer your question, my *guess* would be:
> 8k30 - Full width from a 45 mp sensor. You cannot "crop in" on a 45 mp sensor and get an 8k image*
> ...


Thank you. So for sure, this will be full-frame at 4k 30? Am happy!!!


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## sanj (Feb 14, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> A 1.6x crop on 8k would make it an 80+MPix sensor.


I do not understand the point.


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## davidhfe (Feb 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> Thank you. So for sure, this will be full-frame at 4k 30? Am happy!!!



I am sure that's my guess!

Only canon (and maybe CR Guy) know the truth


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## MadScotsman (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> My (not joking this time) guess -- in no particular order:
> 
> Another L prime, perhaps the 24, 35 or 135
> - A



A really wide angle L prime like a 14 or a 24 would be a sweet little bone to throw the astro guys.

Like me


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## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

MadScotsman said:


> A really wide angle L prime like a 14 or a 24 would be a sweet little bone to throw the astro guys.
> 
> Like me


I would think it would be any of those 14,24,35 but not the 135. While the EF version is my favorite lens, it just doesn't seem to be a sales favorite what with stellar zooms that cover that focal length with almost or as good as primes IQ. 
I say wide...14 and 24


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## prodorshak (Feb 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> I do not understand the point.


Please read this along with associated posts and infer.




__





Canon announces development of the EOS R5 full-frame mirrorless camera


Can anyone with more technical knowledge than me, please answer this question.. What will give me a better background when shooting small birds? A plane ticket to Colombia




www.canonrumors.com


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## amorse (Feb 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> I do not understand the point.


The point is it is very unlikely that 8K will have any crop or a large crop because it just isn't possible for smaller resolutions to create an 8K output. The reason being is that the width of 8K is either 7680 or 8192 (depending on the 8K standard we're talking about). A 40MP sensor would have ~7680 pixels on the long end, meaning it would need the whole sensor to do one standard of 8K, and the other standard of 8K would require a whole 45MP sensor. So if they cropped into that sensor at all, the crop wouldn't have enough pixels to output 8K. 

In other words, the only way this camera can have a crop on 8K will be for the sensor to be way way bigger than 45MP. As an example, if this R5 had the same resolution as the a7RIV (>60MP), even that wouldn't have enough resolution to create much of a crop - it would still need ~80% of the sensor width just to get enough pixels to output 8K - the format is just that big.

Because of all that, we can be pretty confident that there will be no crop or near no crop, unless Canon makes this *by far* the highest resolution full frame sensor ever.


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## sanj (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I am sure that's my guess!
> 
> Only canon (and maybe CR Guy) know the truth


According to your math you seem to know this. It is not the internet that made me feel Canon cameras will have a crop, it is how it has been. Is 1dx3 not the 1st camera without a crop? This is why I was wondering.


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## sanj (Feb 14, 2020)

prodorshak said:


> Please read this along with associated posts and infer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not smart enough... Unfortunately. This part of the technicalities I am unsure of. Ah well...


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## sanj (Feb 14, 2020)

amorse said:


> The point is it is very unlikely that 8K will have any crop or a large crop because it just isn't possible for smaller resolutions to create an 8K output. The reason being is that the width of 8K is either 7680 or 8192 (depending on the 8K standard we're talking about). A 40MP sensor would have ~7680 pixels on the long end, meaning it would need the whole sensor to do one standard of 8K, and the other standard of 8K would require a whole 45MP sensor. So if they cropped into that sensor at all, the crop wouldn't have enough pixels to output 8K.
> 
> In other words, the only way this camera can have a crop on 8K will be for the sensor to be way way bigger than 45MP. As an example, if this R5 had the same resolution as the a7RIV (>60MP), even that wouldn't have enough resolution to create much of a crop - it would still need ~80% of the sensor width just to get enough pixels to output 8K - the format is just that big.
> 
> Because of all that, we can be pretty confident that there will be no crop or near no crop, unless Canon makes this *by far* the highest resolution full frame sensor ever.


Thank you for this!!!!! I am delighted that it will be full-frame 4k. Let's see if it has RAW, DPAF, etc. I keep wondering how they will differentiate this from 1dx3. If it is on par, it will most likely be goodbye DSLR's for me.


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## davidhfe (Feb 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> According to your math you seem to know this. It is not the internet that made me feel Canon cameras will have a crop, it is how it has been. Is 1dx3 not the 1st camera without a crop? This is why I was wondering.



I appreciate your faith in my math (I can assure you my freshman calculus professor did not share it), but there are a dozens of places where engineering constraints might override some back of the envelope calculations.


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## Kit. (Feb 14, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> At the possible expense of write speed as the card becomes fragmented (due to varying file size of each image depending on scene contents).


Unless you constantly keep writing onto an almost full card (which is an alternative to not writing onto a full card at all), wear-leveling logic of the card controller should practically eliminate the difference.


----------



## SteveC (Feb 14, 2020)

Well, technically---they COULD create 4K on a 45 MP sensor by doing a 2.0 crop, since it only needs 1/4 the number of pixels. But if they can record the entire sensor as a movie at full resolution, why would they have to do that? There'd be no engineering reason to do so, that I can see.


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## amorse (Feb 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> Thank you for this!!!!! I am delighted that it will be full-frame 4k. Let's see if it has RAW, DPAF, etc. I keep wondering how they will differentiate this from 1dx3. If it is on par, it will most likely be goodbye DSLR's for me.


No worries! 

I think a lot of people expected a crop because there have been crops in the past. Make no mistake though - 8K requires 4 times the data as 4K. That is an eye-popping amount of data, and that's why some people just don't believe this is going to happen without caveats. It is entirely possible that 8K is only possible without AF or only using an external recorder, but they should be able to do 8K at 30fps because the 1DXIII is doing 5.5K raw at 60fps, which (so I'm told) is moving about the same amount of data as 8K at 30fps. In other words, Canon has already shown that they can move that much data. With that said, I don't think the auto focus works at 60fps in 5.5k raw on the 1DXIII, so there is fair reason to think that AF may not be possible at 8K. Hard to tell what the other modes will look like - for context, if it has 4K120, that should be moving the same amount of data as 8K, and the 1DXIII can't do that so it may not be in this either.

At the end of the day though, not having AF at 8K or requiring an external recorder would be a pain, but the truth of the matter is this will likely still be the only full frame camera capable of doing 8K at all for some time.

But then again, it's all hypothetical until the camera is released, and the fact that they're claiming 8K in any form is ground breaking no matter how you slice it.


----------



## prodorshak (Feb 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> I do not understand the point.


You need a certain amount of megapixels (MP) for 8K (33-44 MP depending on pixels on width and aspect ratio). That means, if you have 1.6X crop on 8K, then:
1.6X crop 8K = ~33-44 MP
The diagonal of a full frame 35 mm sensor (36*24) is ~43 mm (please apply Pythagoras theorem to calculate that).
So, 1.6 crop on diagonal will yield ~26.8 mm.
Now, 26.8 mm diagonal at 3:2 aspect ratio will give dimensions of ~ 22.2*14.8 = 328.56 mm sq
If a 328.56 mm sq sensor has 8K resolution (assuming 33 MP for 8K) and a full frame sensor is the size of 864 mm sq,
then, no crop sensor (approximately, ) = (33*864)/328.56 = *86.77 MP*


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## digigal (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> The world cannot hear your over the singing angels they claim to hear while shooting 20 fps FF cameras.
> 
> Battery power matters, I don't deny. But we're at the point that people are frothing at the mouth for what mirrorless can do in spectacular disproportion to their concern over batteries. People are just kind of dealing with the battery by packing an extra one or two, or they are pleasantly surprised with how long these mirrorless cameras actually perform in the field (with their preferred use-case, workflow, etc.) vs. estimates and specs.
> 
> - A


I got 1800 shots on one battery at Bosque this year using my R. I don't do video. Used my R almost exclusively there to try to see how the different focus tracking settings would perform because I want to use it as my b/u camera for the new R5--my main "squeeze" has been the 7DMII
Catherine


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## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Unless you constantly keep writing onto an almost full card (which is an alternative to not writing onto a full card at all), wear-leveling logic of the card controller should practically eliminate the difference.



In the scenario being discussed, aren't we talking about deleting images to make more room on a card? Doesn't that infer that the card is at near capacity?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Well, technically---they COULD create 4K on a 45 MP sensor by doing a 2.0 crop, since it only needs 1/4 the number of pixels. But if they can record the entire sensor as a movie at full resolution, why would they have to do that? There'd be no engineering reason to do so, that I can see.



To double the frame rate without increasing the processing load.


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> I would think it would be any of those 14,24,35 but not the 135. While the EF version is my favorite lens, it just doesn't seem to be a sales favorite what with stellar zooms that cover that focal length with almost or as good as primes IQ.
> I say wide...14 and 24




The 135L doesn't sell well because:

It's 24 years old and what was once famously sharp is no longer
It does not have IS
It's only a stop faster than a 70-200 2.8
Canon's 70-200 2.8s are pretty damn legendary
_Only the last bullet point may be true on RF. _ If they made one -- I'm no champion of wanting this, I'm just saying -- it would either have IS, be faster than f/2 or both.

Just consider an exotic tele prime that Canon might offer. Mitakon pulled off a limited run 135 f/1.4 for Sony, Nikon still makes the 105 f/1.4 for F mount, and Canon's 200 f/2L IS (and f/1.8L before it) is pretty damn sweet even if it does cost a mint:

​
I think there's *a* prime lens in a 100-200 range there in RF's future. Why not the 135?

- A


----------



## sanj (Feb 14, 2020)

amorse said:


> No worries!
> 
> I think a lot of people expected a crop because there have been crops in the past. Make no mistake though - 8K requires 4 times the data as 4K. That is an eye-popping amount of data, and that's why some people just don't believe this is going to happen without caveats. It is entirely possible that 8K is only possible without AF or only using an external recorder, but they should be able to do 8K at 30fps because the 1DXIII is doing 5.5K raw at 60fps, which (so I'm told) is moving about the same amount of data as 8K at 30fps. In other words, Canon has already shown that they can move that much data. With that said, I don't think the auto focus works at 60fps in 5.5k raw on the 1DXIII, so there is fair reason to think that AF may not be possible at 8K. Hard to tell what the other modes will look like - for context, if it has 4K120, that should be moving the same amount of data as 8K, and the 1DXIII can't do that so it may not be in this either.
> 
> ...


I do not have any use for 8k just yet. As long as it has good 4k - good bit rate, DPAF, RAW (or log) and full-frame, I am a happy customer.


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## sanj (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> The 135L doesn't sell well because:
> 
> It's 24 years old and what was once famously sharp is no longer
> It does not have IS
> ...


Love this photo. Really do! The blacks and the hint of lilac in the background. Favor requested: Pls pet the dog for me!


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## Go Wild (Feb 14, 2020)

I keep scratching my head with something about the specs...

Before go on let me just say that for me it´s the same that this "spec" is there or not, I don´t care, I will buy the camera anyway. But let´s talk about the 8k in EOS R5. Something that Canon wrote in the development announcement got my attention. They said that: "...still images from video footage as well as process 8K video into higher-quality 4K video". So what I understand is that Canon EOS r5 process 8k image into a high quality 4k? So....This is an 8k image oversampled to 4k, like the Sony cameras that have 6k video oversampled to 4k? Is that it?? So if it is that, there will be NOT 8k25fps (pal region), but instead an 8k image oversampled to 4k video. So it´s not quite 8k...

Probably I am wrong but that´s my understanding about statement!

But what bothers me THE MOST is: "still images from video footage!" DAMN I totally HOPE they dont use that crappy MJPEG codec again!!!!

Any thoughts on this?


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## amorse (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> I would think it would be any of those 14,24,35 but not the 135. While the EF version is my favorite lens, it just doesn't seem to be a sales favorite what with stellar zooms that cover that focal length with almost or as good as primes IQ.
> I say wide...14 and 24


14 and 24 make a lot of sense, but part of me wonders if there was any truth to the thought of creating an f/2 trinity of zooms and the 28-70 will see a wider and a longer sibling. 14-28 f/2? Count me in!


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## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

amorse said:


> 14 and 24 make a lot of sense, but part of me wonders if there was any truth to the thought of creating an f/2 trinity of zooms and the 28-70 will see a wider and a longer sibling. 14-28 f/2? Count me in!




If we get an _f/2 zoom trinity_ before a 50 prime that lives somewhere between crappy plastic cheapness and a lead pipe priced as gold, I'm gonna lose it.

- A


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> The 135L doesn't sell well because:
> 
> It's 24 years old and what was once famously sharp is no longer
> It does not have IS
> ...


When I wrote 135 I meant that focal length, not the EF. I totally get all your points. The RF version might be a hot seller.Dunno. I just don't think the other brands who do that mm are top sellers. It's no portrait king ala 85


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## David_E (Feb 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> _The Yet to be released Sony A7R4 is going up to 63MP _...


?? A7R4 in stock at Adorama. 61MP. ??


----------



## amorse (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> If we get an _f/2 zoom trinity_ before a 50 prime that lives somewhere between crappy plastic cheapness and a lead pipe priced as gold, I'm gonna lose it.
> 
> - A


I'm sure! And I will remember this exchange for that day if it comes!

I don't know though - I would have expected a faster 35mm over an 85 DS last year, but here we are. It seems to me that every year they mix the releases between some high-end workhorse glass, some cheaper glass, and something new/different. By that release pattern, I could see them going to an f/2 trinity before replicating the 50 at a more reasonable cost/size/speed. 

Then again, no-one saw 8K coming so who knows what they'll do next.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 14, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> In the scenario being discussed, aren't we talking about deleting images to make more room on a card? Doesn't that infer that the card is at near capacity?


And _who exactly_ do you think I added the stuff in the parentheses for?

The alternative to writing these images "slowly" is not writing them "quickly", but not writing them at all.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 14, 2020)

amorse said:


> 14 and 24 make a lot of sense, but part of me wonders if there was any truth to the thought of creating an f/2 trinity of zooms and the 28-70 will see a wider and a longer sibling. 14-28 f/2? Count me in!



I want to be committed to shooting primes from now on, but damn if a 14-28 f/2 wouldn't be tempting.


----------



## peters (Feb 14, 2020)

Mechanical_EYE said:


> View attachment 188645


Nearly perfect design in my opinion  Only thing I would have wished for: the power-on-off-switch on the top left is pretty much a waste of space. They could have put a classic mode dial there. And the power-switch could be at the shutter , which is the best place to put it, like Nikon and Panasonic do. ALso the screen looks a bit small (the actualy screen, not the blat matte in this image. Its seen in the 360° video that its smaller then the whole area).

Other than that, its perfect  I am happy to see a dedicated rating button, something very importang in my opinion. Also so silly touch bar  just an awesome button layout =)


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> When I wrote 135 I meant that focal length, not the EF. I totally get all your points. The RF version might be a hot seller.Dunno. I just don't think the other brands who do that mm are top sellers. It's no portrait king ala 85


The RF 85 is the first 85 I have ever owned. Fantastic lens. I have 6x 135mm primes. That’s my favorite focal length for portraits. I just sold my RF 50 so I’ll be ready with $ for an eventual RF 135. I understand I am probably an outlier, but that would be my most prized lens. Really miss my EF 135mm f/2.


----------



## transpo1 (Feb 14, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No I would never shoot 8k, I only mentioned 8k because that dictates a >40mp sensor. I use 20mp sensors and am quite happy to stitch landscapes when I want more MP and an effective larger sensor, what that doesn't give me is more detail in one shot for moving subjects.
> 
> I don't do much video at all but what little I have done the end user specified 1080, so as far as I am concerned even 4k is overkill.



Hate to burst your bubble guys, but people do shoot in 6K and 8K and it will only become more prevalent in the next few years. I just shot a project in 8K myself on RED and the amount of flexibility you have in post with the footage is truly astounding. It will soon be to 4K what 4K was and is to 1080 today. 

Does this need to be on a stills camera? With the new crop of 6K video-centric MILCs coming (the Fuji X-T4 will likely be 6K, the A7SIII will be at least 6K, etc.), yes, having 8K as a marketing spec will help Canon's sales immensely. 

Photographers may not want it but video is important and it is happening.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Feb 14, 2020)

Max C said:


> The current EOS R was dead on arrival!
> 
> It simply does not compare to the others in its price range. Like the A7III. The Sony came with IBIS, dual slots, uncropped 4k and extensive lense range.
> 
> ...


Yup, the EOS R wasn't brilliant on launch and still has its weaknesses but after the firmware upgrades, its actually a pretty decent camera.

Just hoping they don't price the EOS R5 out of reach for us mere mortals!


----------



## Stanri010 (Feb 14, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> I keep scratching my head with something about the specs...
> 
> Before go on let me just say that for me it´s the same that this "spec" is there or not, I don´t care, I will buy the camera anyway. But let´s talk about the 8k in EOS R5. Something that Canon wrote in the development announcement got my attention. They said that: "...still images from video footage as well as process 8K video into higher-quality 4K video". So what I understand is that Canon EOS r5 process 8k image into a high quality 4k? So....This is an 8k image oversampled to 4k, like the Sony cameras that have 6k video oversampled to 4k? Is that it?? So if it is that, there will be NOT 8k25fps (pal region), but instead an 8k image oversampled to 4k video. So it´s not quite 8k...
> 
> ...



Oversampling 8K for 4K video and shooting 8K video are not mutually exclusive. When canon says it's an 8K camera, they mean it's an 8K video output. For example, the EOS C100 II cinema camera has a 4K Super35 sensor that outputs ONLY 1080P. They call that camera 1080p only, not 4K.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Feb 14, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Trade price of the R: That will fall deep. Future bodies will have IBIS and one without will not be competitive. However, the R is a great camera that can be kept as backup body.


It seems to me that having IBIS in the body is preferable to not having it but in all honesty unless its video or long lens use, the IBIS in the RF lenses is pretty good and the in body IBIS will be tuned more for Pro's .


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 14, 2020)

transpo1 said:


> Hate to burst your bubble guys, but people do shoot in 6K and 8K and it will only become more prevalent in the next few years. I just shot a project in 8K myself on RED and the amount of flexibility you have in post with the footage is truly astounding. It will soon be to 4K what 4K was and is to 1080 today.
> 
> Does this need to be on a stills camera? With the new crop of 6K video-centric MILCs coming (the Fuji X-T4 will likely be 6K, the A7SIII will be at least 6K, etc.), yes, having 8K as a marketing spec will help Canon's sales immensely.
> 
> Photographers may not want it but video is important and it is happening.


You aren’t bursting my bubble, but clearly you can’t read. I was asked if I personally would use 8k, the answer to that, however much you might like to think you know better, is no* I* won’t. I have no doubt some might but I can’t answer for them.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> It seems to me that having IBIS in the body is preferable to not having it but in all honesty unless its video or long lens use, the IBIS in the RF lenses is pretty good and the in body IBIS will be tuned more for Pro's .



Not really:
IBIS (in body):
- generates sigificant heat and costs significant battery energy
- the correction has limits as the sensor is only moved a few pixel distances in each direction
IS (lens):
- costs less power
- has far more correction capabilities than IBIS
- particulaly powerful also for long focal length lenses whereas IBIS is mainly good for wide angle lenses but l8mited for long focal lengths.

Best is if IBIS and IS work together.


----------



## DarkPhalanx (Feb 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> The Yet to be released Sony A7R4 is going up to 63MP and still can't break the 30fps barrier in 4K.




It's 61MP and it's already out...


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 14, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I stopped doing it a long time ago after accidentally deleting some images I didn't realize were not "protected" and then using the card and overwriting some of them. Luckily, I was able to recover the ones that did not get overwritten, which was most of them.
> 
> For me there's just too much risk of accidentally deleted something unintentionally. I never delete anything until it's been backed up first.


I do a lot of deleting in camera after a day’s shoot. For BIF type shooting there are a lot of frames either out of focus, poor exposure with blown highlights, part of bird cut off, or lousy composition or background. I toss these immediately. Many more get tossed when I get to the computer. Never had any regrets. For landscapes, I usually keep all until I cull at the computer.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

amorse said:


> 14 and 24 make a lot of sense, but part of me wonders if there was any truth to the thought of creating an f/2 trinity of zooms and the 28-70 will see a wider and a longer sibling. 14-28 f/2? Count me in!



Yes, there was pretty firm "agreement" in the rumor community that Canon is working on an f/2 non-IS trinity: Besides the 28-70 that we have, there is a patent on a 14-28. Then there were also rumors on a 70-135. 
Anyway, I am a big fan of non-IS lenses since IS costs one stop (most of my work is low light). Now with IBIS, all the premium RF lenses have access to image stabilization ;-)

I hope 2020 is the year to complete the f/2 trinity!


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I want to be committed to shooting primes from now on, but damn if a 14-28 f/2 wouldn't be tempting.




I dunno. Filtering UWA is a big deal for me and around 14-15mm the filter ring tends to disappear -- fine for astro but problematic for other groups of shooters. They could pull a Nikkor Z 14-30 f/4 and put a step up frame around the front element and keep a filter ring, I guess, but at f/2 one imagines that lens would be 11-24L big and heavy.

Also, with fast UWA lenses, you tend to have a choice of a front filter ring OR manageable vignetting. The last two 16ish-35 mm f/2.8 lenses Canon produced were hall of fame vignetters presumably because Canon didn't want a more bulbous (and filter problematic) front element.

To me, and perhaps I have this wrong, but UWA + fast usually ends in sadness for one of the various camps of shooters -- daylight landscapers, astro folks and sports folks. Since the front-filtering crowd was supported with the 15-35, perhaps the 14-28 f/2 would just give up on that and go all mega-bulbous and delight the astro folks.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The RF 85 is the first 85 I have ever owned. Fantastic lens. I have 6x 135mm primes. That’s my favorite focal length for portraits. I just sold my RF 50 so I’ll be ready with $ for an eventual RF 135. I understand I am probably an outlier, but that would be my most prized lens. Really miss my EF 135mm f/2.




$800 or so and you and your lost love could be reunited. Canon refurbs sell out quickly, but they are out there occasionally.

Also, now that mirrorless unlocks the MF assist door, the Sigma 135 f/1.8 Art is supposed to split atoms if you don't mind 3rd party.

- A


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 14, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> In the scenario being discussed, aren't we talking about deleting images to make more room on a card? Doesn't that infer that the card is at near capacity?


Not necessarily. I will delete images during a lull while in the field whatever the fullness of the memory card. Same when I return to hotel room.


----------



## scyrene (Feb 14, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Totally off topic, but you… look very different from what my mental image has been.



I had the exact same thought


----------



## amorse (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I dunno. Filtering UWA is a big deal for me and around 14-15mm the filter ring tends to disappear -- fine for astro but problematic for other groups of shooters. They could pull a Nikkor Z 14-30 f/4 and put a step up frame around the front element and keep a filter ring, I guess, but at f/2 one imagines that lens would be 11-24L big and heavy.
> 
> Also, with fast UWA lenses, you tend to have a choice of a front filter ring OR manageable vignetting. The last two 16ish-35 mm f/2.8 lenses Canon produced were hall of fame vignetters presumably because Canon didn't want a more bulbous (and filter problematic) front element.
> 
> ...


I'm one of those day/night landscape shooters and my solution so far has been two lenses. I too want that filter thread, but no way does that come on a 14-28 f/2. If I buy the R5, the very next thing I buy will likely be the 15-35 f/2.8. 

With that said, I wonder if Canon would consider building a 14-28 f/2 with a drop in back filter i.e. from the EF/RF drop in filter adapters. That could steal a lot of my money right out of my pocket.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> $800 or so and you and your lost love could be reunited. Canon refurbs sell out quickly, but they are out there occasionally.
> 
> Also, now that mirrorless unlocks the MF assist door, the Sigma 135 f/1.8 Art is supposed to split atoms if you don't mind 3rd party.
> 
> - A


Nah. I sold the EF 135mm to get into the R system.  With all I loved about it, the CA is one thing I don't miss. I'll never buy Sigma.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> The 135L doesn't sell well because:
> 
> It's 24 years old and what was once famously sharp is no longer
> It does not have IS
> ...



A RF 135 f/1.4 would be fantastic. A filter thread in the ballpark of 105mm I guess. But I would have several uses for it. Besides portraits that could be an amazing astro lens.
I will be in for all super fast primes released this year ...


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> $800 or so and you and your lost love could be reunited. Canon refurbs sell out quickly, but they are out there occasionally.
> 
> Also, now that mirrorless unlocks the MF assist door, the Sigma 135 f/1.8 Art is supposed to split atoms if you don't mind 3rd party.
> 
> - A


True, but you may not want to split atoms with a portrait lens. Every skin pore becomes visible.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Anyway, I am a big fan of non-IS lenses since IS costs one stop (most of my work is low light).




IS costs _weight_, but it does not cost speed.

We have a lot of 2.8 zooms with IS now, now we also have the EF 85 f/1.4L IS. I think the old rules of 'f/4 gets IS and f/2.8 doesn't' is just that -- old. 

I think to IS or not IS is simply a design choice.

- A


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 14, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> True, but you may not want to split atoms with a portrait lens. Every skin pore becomes visible.


This is very true about the pores. Thanks to Private By Design's (PBD) reigniting and encouraging my interest in learning PS techniques I have learned how to fix that issue (and a couple of others) with a simple PS action. The man deserves a medal.


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I dunno. Filtering UWA is a big deal for me and around 14-15mm the filter ring tends to disappear -- fine for astro but problematic for other groups of shooters. They could pull a Nikkor Z 14-30 f/4 and put a step up frame around the front element and keep a filter ring, I guess, but at f/2 one imagines that lens would be 11-24L big and heavy.
> 
> Also, with fast UWA lenses, you tend to have a choice of a front filter ring OR manageable vignetting. The last two 16ish-35 mm f/2.8 lenses Canon produced were hall of fame vignetters presumably because Canon didn't want a more bulbous (and filter problematic) front element.
> 
> ...


With that said the 16-35 f/4L IS is an amazing value. It may not be your coma wonder or low light beast but it is a great all rounder wide zoom with negligible vignetting and fantastic color/contrast. I use it with a 100mm filter system and it's a champ. I would hope Canon does something like it for RF one day.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> IS costs _weight_, but it does not cost speed.
> 
> We have a lot of 2.8 zooms with IS now, now we also have the EF 85 f/1.4L IS. I think the old rules of 'f/4 gets IS and f/2.8 doesn't' is just that -- old.
> 
> ...



Disagree: It does cost diameter (and diameter directly relates to speed). The RF 28-70 would be impractically thick if it had IS. And let me add: The RF 15-35 is larger in diameter than the EF 16-35 III for thevery reason that IS adds to the diameter ...


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

amorse said:


> With that said, I wonder if Canon would consider building a 14-28 f/2 with a drop in back filter i.e. from the EF/RF drop in filter adapters. That could steal a lot of my money right out of my pocket.




If a $3000 EF 11-24L only got a little rear-element notch for a tiny ND, so I'm not sure Canon is going to hook you up here.

And maybe this is picky, but a rear slot can't do ND grads. That's a dealbreaker for me as daylight shooter. But I'm delighted with my EF 16-35 f/4L IS for that -- I wonder if we'll see something similar for RF.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Nah. I sold the EF 135mm to get into the R system.  With all I loved about it, the CA is one thing I don't miss. I'll never buy Sigma.




First party AF for the win. Every time. Agree.

- A


----------



## amorse (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> If a $3000 EF 11-24L only got a little rear-element notch for a tiny ND, so I'm not sure Canon is going to hook you up here.
> 
> And maybe this is picky, but a rear slot can't do ND grads. That's a dealbreaker for me as daylight shooter. But I'm delighted with my EF 16-35 f/4L IS for that -- I wonder if we'll see something similar for RF.
> 
> - A


I use a lot of ND grads on my 16-35 f/4L IS now, but for a 14-28 f/2 I'd be willing to bracket! It's the polarization and or 6-10 stop filters I'd be really missing most.


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> First party AF for the win. Every time. Agree.
> 
> - A


I've been all over with all primes, all zooms, all Canon, some 3rd party, a mix and back again. I have settled on ALL CANON, zooms and primes but if I do ever get a 3rd party lens again it would be a manual focus or used in manual focus most of the time (macro) 

1st party AF ftw like you said.


----------



## telemaque (Feb 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> 8k30 - Full width from a 45 mp sensor. You cannot "crop in" on a 45 mp sensor and get an 8k image*
> 4k30 - Full width, oversampled from 8k
> 4k60 - Either line skipping, pixel binning or (most likely) a 1.5x crop (about super 35, will work great with EFS lenses an adaptor!)
> 4k120 - 2.0 crop


Hello David,

I am chemical engineer, so I can understand technical stuff when clarified to me. 
You can dive into details if necessary.
I understand your comments on 8k30 and 4K30.
Now I do not undersand why in 4K above 30fps you get a crop factor?

If you have a technical link that explains. 
I will visit it. Thanks.


----------



## RicoB (Feb 14, 2020)

Canon, please make some AFFORDABLE RF mount prime lenses with FAST apertures.

RF 50mm f/1.4
RF 85mm f/1.4
RF 135mm f/1.4
RF 100mm Macro

I’m sure all the current “L” series lenses you‘ve released are fantastic, but I would need to sell limbs to be able to afford a few lenses as I’m not a working photography professional who earns revenue from my photography.

I also do not want to “adapt” glass. I have invested in an RP body in December, having a good hunch you’d be coming out with a better body and IBIS in 2020 and it looks like my hunch was correct. I now want to invest in RF glass.

Thank you!


----------



## Dantana (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> With that said the 16-35 f/4L IS is an amazing value. It may not be your coma wonder or low light beast but it is a great all rounder wide zoom with negligible vignetting and fantastic color/contrast. I use it with a 100mm filter system and it's a champ. I would hope Canon does something like it for RF one day.


I'm hoping something along those lines comes out in the not too distant future. Still shooting with an old 17-40 that gets the job done, but isn't as good as the 16-35 IS.


----------



## scyrene (Feb 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I have an EOS M. But they are not equipped with RF mounts obviously. Canon is going to probably over time slowly semi-replace the M with small compact crop body RF mounted rigs and a line of RF-S (like EF-S) glass.



I don't think it's probable, though it's certainly possible. It makes no sense to me, but some of the other decisions Canon has made were a surprise too. We simply don't have enough information to make informed predictions. But I do think a lot of the people assuming it will happen are being hopeful - a lot of 7D owners, for instance.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

RicoB said:


> Canon, please make some AFFORDABLE RF mount prime lenses with FAST apertures.
> 
> RF 50mm f/1.4
> RF 85mm f/1.4
> ...



I like your prime wish list. But an RF 135 f/1.4 AFFORDABLE? lol ...


----------



## Max TT (Feb 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Yup, the EOS R wasn't brilliant on launch and still has its weaknesses but after the firmware upgrades, its actually a pretty decent camera.
> 
> Just hoping they don't price the EOS R5 out of reach for us mere mortals!



I feel you. The R5 will be an awesome system, but I don't think the R5 will be for me personally. 
I can't afford $3500 for a body, and then have enough to purchase lenses, memory cards and other peripherals, I just wont have enough money to get up and running. 

I have my fingers crossed for the R6 in the ballpark of $2000. If the R6 comes with IBIS, uncropped 4k, HD120 and dual card slots, I am all in. 

I don't need 8k, I don't even have a machine that can deal with that edit. I don't need 20fps as well, would be nice, but not a deal breaker. The only way I can see myself spending a bit more on the R6 like around $2500 or R5 around $3500 is if somehow they allow 4:2:2 10bit internal. My kids can eat bread and cheese for a couple months.

But those are my needs, I understand everyone needs maybe different. Honestly the Sony A7III fits my needs perfectly at the moment, but I just don't like the E-mount going forward. It really limits them on what they can achieve with their lenses and IBIS. I just need Canon to deliver their version of an A7III with RF mount lol


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> With that said the 16-35 f/4L IS is an amazing value. It may not be your coma wonder or low light beast but it is a great all rounder wide zoom with negligible vignetting and fantastic color/contrast. I use it with a 100mm filter system and it's a champ. I would hope Canon does something like it for RF one day.




You and me both. Lee 100 for me as well, though I don't use it nearly as much as I should. 

But that lens does everything I ask of it. A perfect travel/hiking companion as well -- light, IS, sealed, front filterable, etc.





(FTR in the last shot -- the 16-35 normally makes brilliant sunstars but I was very rushed here and was fighting a brutally high contrast scene. Operator error on that one.)

- A


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

RicoB said:


> Canon, please make some AFFORDABLE RF mount prime lenses with FAST apertures.
> 
> RF 50mm f/1.4
> RF 85mm f/1.4
> ...



Those are fantastic wishes however Canon has your back with the EF-RF adapter. Unlike mostly all other adapted situations, you can even get better quality out of your EF glass from an R body.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I dunno. Filtering UWA is a big deal for me and around 14-15mm the filter ring tends to disappear -- fine for astro but problematic for other groups of shooters. They could pull a Nikkor Z 14-30 f/4 and put a step up frame around the front element and keep a filter ring, I guess, but at f/2 one imagines that lens would be 11-24L big and heavy.
> 
> Also, with fast UWA lenses, you tend to have a choice of a front filter ring OR manageable vignetting. The last two 16ish-35 mm f/2.8 lenses Canon produced were hall of fame vignetters presumably because Canon didn't want a more bulbous (and filter problematic) front element.
> 
> ...



All valid points, though I daresay there was never a lens made without some kind of compromise


----------



## RicoB (Feb 14, 2020)

joestopper said:


> I like your prime wish list. But an RF 135 f/1.4 AFFORDABLE? lol ...



Yeah ok, I was reaching there.. LOL. But Sigma makes a 1.8 version for Sony at around $1,400 so a Canon non-L RF f/1.8 in this focal length may be good enough IF sharp wide open and the pricing around $1,700.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

navastronia said:


> All valid points, though I daresay there was never a lens made without some kind of compromise



Let me add: No engineer has ever designed anything without a compromise. Engineering is all about finding the "sweet spot" ...


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 14, 2020)

RicoB said:


> Canon, please make some AFFORDABLE RF mount prime lenses with FAST apertures.




Your list with comments:

RF 50mm f/1.4 -- a f/1.8 surely coming, but f/1.4 perhaps not 
RF 85mm f/1.4 -- f/1.8 I would say. f/1.4 for EF today is $1500!
RF 135mm f/1.4 -- that's a $3k lens, I would guess -- esp. if it has IS handling all that weight
RF 100mm Macro -- you are certain to get one, but if may be L and $$$. Consider the 100 2.8 non-L adapted?


You'll get some of the above, but not exactly what you want.

- A


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

RicoB said:


> Yeah ok, I was reaching there.. LOL. But Sigma makes a 1.8 version for Sony at around $1,400 so a Canon non-L RF f/1.8 in this focal length may be good enough IF sharp wide open and the pricing around $1,700.


Have to be 1.8? How about a reworking of the OG magikal 135L? Add some IS and spectra-wonder coatings....BOOM! at f/2 it would be *new* magic on RF. 

F/2 is more than fine, all this fighting for the lowest f stop is nuts.


----------



## RicoB (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Your list with comments:
> 
> RF 50mm f/1.4 -- a f/1.8 surely coming, but f/1.4 perhaps not
> RF 85mm f/1.4 -- f/1.8 I would say. f/1.4 for EF today is $1500!
> ...



I guess what I was getting at is that RF 85 f/1.2 is $2,700 USD. So even at $1,500 a 1.4 is $1,200 less.

RF50 1.2 is $2,300 USD so a 1.4 at $900 (non-L) is think should be achievable.

I know these are not “affordable” in terms of their EF equivalents, but affordable in relation to the current L series lineup.

I am willing to pay a premium for quality non-L glass, but the L glass prices are really out of reach for many.


----------



## RicoB (Feb 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> Have to be 1.8? How about a reworking of the OG magikal 135L? Add some IS and spectra-wonder coatings....BOOM! at f/2 it would be *new* magic on RF.
> 
> F/2 is more than fine, all this fighting for the lowest f stop is nuts.


SURE! F/2 at that focal length would be great!


----------



## brad-man (Feb 14, 2020)

I'm just glad I have all the EF glass that I do. With the exception of the R + 24-105 + 35 that I picked up refurbed for very reasonable cash, I'll end up waiting a year and a half after release for future R & RF purchases as the intro prices are a wee bit lofty...


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?
So, we have the fantastic R5 body by mid of the year with all the whistles and bells we ever dreamt of... (and more)
But: Where does the journey go from here?
I am moderately impressed (nicely phrased) by the two recent RF lens development announcements. What are these other FIVE lenses they work on? Why dont they tell us what these lenses are? Remember last year, same time: Canon gave us a roadmap of six RF lenses for the course of the year.
I am about to sell my EF lens portfolio and want to go 100% RF.
PLEASE CANON: Do announce the roadmap!


----------



## Bangrossi (Feb 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Your list with comments:
> 
> RF 50mm f/1.4 -- a f/1.8 surely coming, but f/1.4 perhaps not
> RF 85mm f/1.4 -- f/1.8 I would say. f/1.4 for EF today is $1500!
> ...



I just bought used 100L macro like new condition for $450. I think i will skip the RF version. The RF version might be better but the EF version is very good performer and cheap on used market.


----------



## cayenne (Feb 14, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> About the same as the "Rate" button on the left side of your 5D3?




*WOW!!!! *

Honest to God, I did NOT know that button was there?!?!?

After I read what you posted, I had to stand up and walk to the living room to get my 5D3 and give it a look and sure enough on far left side down a little is a "RATE" button.

LOL...well, I guess it hasn't been a deal breaker for me on cameras....haha.

Hell, I might even take a bit of time to find the old 5D3 manual and see what that button is for and how best to actually use it!!

cayenne.


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

Bangrossi said:


> I just bought used 100L macro like new condition for $450. I think i will skip the RF version. The RF version might be better but the EF version is very good performer and cheap on used market.


It's easy to skip something they don't have! (Or did I miss a dev announcement?) True folks have speculated this would be desirable by most people....


----------



## brad-man (Feb 14, 2020)

joestopper said:


> WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?
> So, we have the fantastic R5 body by mid of the year with all the whistles and bells we ever dreamt of... (and more)
> But: Where does the journey go from here?
> I am moderately impressed (nicely phrased) by the two recent RF lens development announcements. What are these other FIVE lenses they work on? Why dont they tell us what these lenses are? Remember last year, same time: Canon gave us a roadmap of six RF lenses for the course of the year.
> ...


You don't _need _a roadmap. You _need_ a bank account.


Bangrossi said:


> I just bought used 100L macro like new condition for $450. I think i will skip the RF version. The RF version might be better but the EF version is very good performer and cheap on used market.


One of Canon's truly "must have"" lenses. That's a great price...


----------



## slclick (Feb 14, 2020)

cayenne said:


> *WOW!!!! *
> 
> Honest to God, I did NOT know that button was there?!?!?
> 
> ...


Best thing for me is to go into settings, turn off rating 2 and up. Use rate as simply as can be and import all, then delete non rated (after a 2nd looksie). I'm careful not to delete in camera anything I don't see as very good or worthy of post, be it minor adjustments or artistic editing such as for ICM or crazy shi*e like that. *ART!*

_Of course, if you import with EOS Utility you can import rated only._


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

RicoB said:


> Yeah ok, I was reaching there.. LOL. But Sigma makes a 1.8 version for Sony at around $1,400 so a Canon non-L RF f/1.8 in this focal length may be good enough IF sharp wide open and the pricing around $1,700.



Lens prices closely relate to the size of the entry lens element. A 135 f/1.8 entry element would be larger in diameter than that of a 85 f/1.2. Therefore, the price is to be expected north of 2.5k (not even to mention the 135 f/1.4).


----------



## joestopper (Feb 14, 2020)

brad-man said:


> You don't _need _a roadmap. You _need_ a bank account.
> 
> 
> 
> BOTH!


----------



## Go Wild (Feb 14, 2020)

Stanri010 said:


> Oversampling 8K for 4K video and shooting 8K video are not mutually exclusive. When canon says it's an 8K camera, they mean it's an 8K video output. For example, the EOS C100 II cinema camera has a 4K Super35 sensor that outputs ONLY 1080P. They call that camera 1080p only, not 4K.


Ok and thats what i want to believe it is also! I know that and thats why i put the example of Sony delivering 4k oversampling a 6k image and they also dont quote the camera as a 6k camera.

However, how you interpret this: "...as well as process 8K video into higher-quality 4K video." Again, this are not my words, this is the announcement statement from Canon. And again, this for me at least is the least important thing in the R5. I will/would buy the camera with the 4k60 without the 8k.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 15, 2020)

joestopper said:


> A RF 135 f/1.4 would be fantastic. A filter thread in the ballpark of 105mm I guess.



No. Don't forget that with the new RF mount capabilities, Canon has 
started to put the big heavy glass to the back of the lens, resulting in 
overall better balance and smaller filter threads.

If it is as good as the Sigma 135 ART but smaller, I might jump ship.
Until then, the 135 ART on any R camera is a stellar performer.


----------



## slclick (Feb 15, 2020)

Quackator said:


> No. Don't forget that with the new RF mount capabilities, Canon has
> started to put the big heavy glass to the back of the lens, resulting in
> overall better balance and smaller filter threads.
> 
> ...


I'd love Sigma to make a longer ART macro, akin to the EF 180. So besides that the only other option is the IRIX 150 which gets mixed reviews. I'm not so sure that Canon HAS to make an RF macro at 100mm. Many other brands keep churning out 90 and 105. Lots of folks are happy at 60ish. We all have our own distances at which we like to shoot close up, just because I've always used 100 doesn't mean I might not like something else more.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 15, 2020)

Quackator said:


> No. Don't forget that with the new RF mount capabilities, Canon has
> started to put the big heavy glass to the back of the lens, resulting in
> overall better balance and smaller filter threads.
> 
> ...



No.
The very definition of the f/number is:
Take the focal length and divide by f-stop number and what you get is the diameter of the aperture. And the entry lens element must be at least as big as the aperture.
Example: 135 f/1.4 -> aperture diameter is 96mm
That is optics/physics law!


----------



## David_E (Feb 15, 2020)

*Why the Fuss over 8K Video!?*

Given that tests reveal that most people can't distinguish between 1080P and 4K _at normal viewing distances_, why so much fuss here over 8K in what is essentially a still camera?

Whether you believe you are the exception to the above or not, what are you producing with 4K or 8K video? What subjects are you shooting and where can I see your 4K or 8K videos or motion pictures? If you're shooting video, why aren't you using a video camera?

Anybody else anxious to see information from Canon on focus-tracking for still photography? That's what will tip me between Canon and Sony that can use my Canon glass.

I make the occasional short *nature video for scientific and educational purposes* using 1080p resolution. Satisfies the customer base, which is interested in sharp video and clarity of presentation above meaningless numbers.

My ideal R5 might not have video capability at all. If that saved a few $ and a few grams of mass, all the better. I'm also not hung up on still resolution as much some of you; I'm still selling pix from a 6MP Nikon D100. My ideal R5 would have no more than 7500 x 5000 resolution. The big thing is that it would have the best focus tracking on the planet—corner to corner—so that I could capture that insect in mid-flight at maybe 10 fps/20 fps. It would get a GPS lock as fast as my iPhone does.It would set its clock by the GPS signal. It would be able to access any WiFi network with the same ease as my iOS thingies do and transmit my photos to the Adobe cloud or other cloud of my choice from anywhere I have access to WiFi (understand that is coming with the image.canon cloud in the summer). The WiFi manuals for the 6D II and the 5D IV are 170 and 180 pages, respectively. Ludicrous! The WiFi "manual" for my home security cameras is ¼ page.

Now, let's see your 4K and 8K cinema masterpieces! No cats, please. Any subject.


----------



## David_E (Feb 15, 2020)

cayenne said:


> _Hell, I might even take a bit of time to find the old 5D3 manual and see what that button is for and how best to actually use it!!_


I carry manuals for all of my Canon gear on PDFs on my iPad.


----------



## Czardoom (Feb 15, 2020)

Max C said:


> The current EOS R was dead on arrival!
> 
> It simply does not compare to the others in its price range. Like the A7III. The Sony came with IBIS, dual slots, uncropped 4k and extensive lense range.
> 
> ...


I know I have answered a similar post before, but I think it is worth repeating. No need to weep for those like myself who bought the R. And really no need to insult us with your moronic "koolaid" comment.

You see, not everyone just reads the spec list. Each photographer will have some items that they care more about than others. And - perhaps more importantly, having specs does not mean the specs are worth having if they don't function well.

Not everyone needs IBIS. I own 3 lenses (one RF and two EF) lenses that I use with my R. 2 have IS and the 3rd lens is a wide angle that allows me to shoot at slow shutter speeds - especially as the R has a very good sensor at high ISOs. I have never taken a shot that needed IBIS with that lens and don't need it with the other 2. While 2 cards slots would always be preferred, I have no problem having 1. I have no interest whatsoever in 4K and - quite frankly, the Canon lens range is far more extensive and has far more older affordable lenses than Sony.

So, why would I say that the Canon R is not only competitive, but a better value than the Sony A7 III - at least for me and I'm sure others as well? It's not just because I had bought earlier versions of the A7 (by far the worst cameras I ever bought) but because: I prefer Canon's color. I prefer Canon's ergonomics (by a wide margin), I prefer Canon's EVF (other reviewers also consider it to be better). A fully articulating screen is a requirement for me to do my how-to art videos, the aforementioned Canon lens selection is not only larger but far superior (a common criticism of Sony lenses by pro reviewers is how many lenses are seriously decentered.). Sony also has a reputation for having a very poor dust removal system. And Canon's R has the "dust screen" - a simple but very useful spec. Add in Canon's reputation for having well made reliable products that are easier to use and get the shot.

So, aside from the 2 card slots, Canon has the A7 III beat in every category that I am most interested in and most need.

So, no need to weep for me. I purchased an excellent camera.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> *Why the Fuss over 8K Video!?*
> 
> Given that tests reveal that most people can't distinguish between 1080P and 4K _at normal viewing distances_, why so much fuss here over 8K in what is essentially a still camera?
> 
> ...




I understand that one does not need 8k video (I do stills and dont bother about video either).
But there is a common mis-concept: If you want 20 fps (as you stated), the 8k come for free! Surprise? No ...
Here is why: 20fps at 45mp is roughly 900MB/s throughput i.e. read out speed from sensor. That is about same as 8k (approx 30mp) with 30 frames with also results in 900MB/s.
The rest is just processing power i.e. encoding. Given that one needs a fast processor for tracking etc anyway you have all the incredients for 8k video!
If you want it or not: You get 8k video for free when you have 20 fps on that 45mp sensor. And the argument to save some money with leaving out 8k is (unfortunately) not an option ...


----------



## Go Wild (Feb 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> *Why the Fuss over 8K Video!?*
> 
> Given that tests reveal that most people can't distinguish between 1080P and 4K _at normal viewing distances_, why so much fuss here over 8K in what is essentially a still camera?
> 
> ...



1 - Given that tests reveal that most people can't distinguish between 1080P and 4K _at normal viewing distances_, why so much fuss here over 8K in what is essentially a still camera?

Answer: You can read in hundreds of educational blogs or sites. Shooting in high resolution gives you more image quality. Even if you make a 1080p project, shooting in 4k and exporting in 1080 gives you more image quality. Also more hability to crop. Also more hability to zoom in, transforming a prime into a zoom lens. If 1080p is good for you....Well, good for you! 

2 - My last 3 jobs in video, they were filmed in 4k and delivered in 1080p and 4k. For the reason mentioned up and because nowadays the client asks for it. You can see a trailer of a 4k documentary in the link at the end. Can´t show you more, because i dont work for internet, I deliver films and documentaries for clients.

3 - focus-tracking for still photography is also important for video. In fact, this is one reason that we want so much to film with hybrid cameras. They give you the best of AF world. If you film wildlife AF is quite important to get great results. We are abandoning the times of MF in video and embracingthe great times of AF!  Focus-tracking for still photography will be great, Canon has a huge history in AF, leading the dual pixel AF world. So the R5 will be great, I have no doubts.

4 - 1080p is good for you? Ok, film in 1080p

5 - Same question over and over. The adition of filming capabilities doesn´t make a camera more expensive. Or at least much more expensive. If a camera can do both why the hell shouldn´t it??? Do you think the evolution of stills is getting slow because now cameras can record video? Really? You think that? Well, maybe is the other way around!
Your preferences are your own...I also have my owns....Others have other preferences. There is nos such thing as the perfect camera, and of course no manufacturer can do cameras for all tastes. I am extremely happy with the cameras I have and R5 will make me extremely happy after July! 

So here is a trailer i can show about my new documentary : Antarctica - At World´s End. If you have a 4k monitor, enjoy 4k!  Ohh... no cats!


----------



## sanj (Feb 15, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> 1 - Given that tests reveal that most people can't distinguish between 1080P and 4K _at normal viewing distances_, why so much fuss here over 8K in what is essentially a still camera?
> 
> Answer: You can read in hundreds of educational blogs or sites. Shooting in high resolution gives you more image quality. Even if you make a 1080p project, shooting in 4k and exporting in 1080 gives you more image quality. Also more hability to crop. Also more hability to zoom in, transforming a prime into a zoom lens. If 1080p is good for you....Well, good for you!
> 
> ...


Awesome. And you are 100% right about 4k. I would not shoot even a simple thing like a training video on 1080. It has to be 4k!!!


----------



## Max TT (Feb 15, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> I know I have answered a similar post before, but I think it is worth repeating. No need to weep for those like myself who bought the R. And really no need to insult us with your moronic "koolaid" comment.
> 
> You see, not everyone just reads the spec list. Each photographer will have some items that they care more about than others. And - perhaps more importantly, having specs does not mean the specs are worth having if they don't function well.
> 
> ...



Enjoy your EOS R. I’ll enjoy my EOS R6.


----------



## sanj (Feb 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> *Why the Fuss over 8K Video!?*
> 
> Given that tests reveal that most people can't distinguish between 1080P and 4K _at normal viewing distances_, why so much fuss here over 8K in what is essentially a still camera?
> 
> ...



These ARE video cameras for people who want to use them like that!!!!


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 15, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> 1 - Given that tests reveal that most people can't distinguish between 1080P and 4K _at normal viewing distances_, why so much fuss here over 8K in what is essentially a still camera?
> 
> Answer: You can read in hundreds of educational blogs or sites. Shooting in high resolution gives you more image quality. Even if you make a 1080p project, shooting in 4k and exporting in 1080 gives you more image quality. Also more hability to crop. Also more hability to zoom in, transforming a prime into a zoom lens. If 1080p is good for you....Well, good for you!
> 
> ...



Great reply and great video. I doubt it'll do much good though ... well maybe it might convince a few.

Jack


----------



## telemaque (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> They moved it off of the side to the front of the camera with the 5D MArk IV. There appears to be a cover in the same spot on the R5.


Thanks for the comment.


----------



## David_E (Feb 15, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> _So here is a trailer i can show about my new documentary : Antarctica - At World´s End. If you have a 4k monitor, enjoy 4k!  Ohh... no cats! _


Yes, very nice. Location, location, location. Video quality is every bit as good as 1080p when seen on my 5K 27” iMac at a distance of ~6-8 feet.


----------



## amorse (Feb 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> With that said the 16-35 f/4L IS is an amazing value. It may not be your coma wonder or low light beast but it is a great all rounder wide zoom with negligible vignetting and fantastic color/contrast. I use it with a 100mm filter system and it's a champ. I would hope Canon does something like it for RF one day.


That thing is a workhorse for me. It's earned it's keep 10 times over. It will be a bitter sweet day if I ever sell it in favor of that tasty looking RF15-35.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> I'd love Sigma to make a longer ART macro, akin to the EF 180. So besides that the only other option is the IRIS 150 which gets mixed reviews. I'm not so sure that Canon HAS to make an RF macro at 100mm. Many other brands keep churning out 90 and 105. Lots of folks are happy at 60ish. We all have our own distances at which we like to shoot close up, just because I've always used 100 doesn't mean I might not like something else more.




I strangely feel Sigma or Tamron is more likely to give us a new longer than 100 macro than Canon will.

I appreciate the value of the 180L, but I have never seen one in the field in my entire life.

- A


----------



## AEWest (Feb 15, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> 1 - Given that tests reveal that most people can't distinguish between 1080P and 4K _at normal viewing distances_, why so much fuss here over 8K in what is essentially a still camera?
> 
> Answer: You can read in hundreds of educational blogs or sites. Shooting in high resolution gives you more image quality. Even if you make a 1080p project, shooting in 4k and exporting in 1080 gives you more image quality. Also more hability to crop. Also more hability to zoom in, transforming a prime into a zoom lens. If 1080p is good for you....Well, good for you!
> 
> ...


Another reason to include high spec video on a still camera is to help consolidate the number of camera models by Canon. Sure some would prefer less video features if it were less costly. 

But Canon would prefer to have a capable jack-of-all-trades R5 that covers the needs of the vast majority of pros. Much better for the bean counters in a shrinking market.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You also need to account for the desire for both dimensions in the 3:2 still images to be divisible by 8 for efficient JPEG compression.



True! I should also note this R5 camera will LIKELY have HEIF (High Efficiency Image File) format which can get down to 4x4 pixels for the DCT (Discrete Cosine Transform) blocks so that means the actual resolution can be a multiple of four. I did notice on internal RAW images that Canon TENDS to simply duplicate pixels on the edges to bring the resolution up to integer sizes. Again, I am pretty sure the TRUE native resolution of the sensor itself probably means it will have an extra 60 to 120 pixels on the vertical and/or horizontal axis used for internal black-levels and sensor noise calibration purposes.

---

I should ALSO NOTE Canon is NO STRANGER to high performance high pixel count sensors having made a 25,700 x 17,142 pixels 200+ mm super-sensor in 2009/2010, which would be a _440 Megapixel_ sensor + plus add extra calibration pixels to make it 448 megapixels -- So they KNOW how to make BIG SENSORS !!! And this sensor was from 2009/2010, so who knows what they've got in their labs NOW in the year 2020?!

Here is the original "TechNews Daily" magazine article for this sensor which is now being used in Satellite imaging:

MSNBC TECHNEWS DAILY: (2010)

Canon image sensor may redefine photography

updated 9/12/2010 3:33:41 PM ET

-Camera maker Canon recently announced what is by far the largest CMOS image sensor ever made, measuring 202mm x 205mm (8 inches x 8.1 inches). To put that in perspective, that's about 40 times the size (by sensor area) of Canon's next-largest CMOS sensor, the 35mm-sized (36mm x 24mm) sensor in the top-line Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III and EOS 5D Mark II digital SLRs. It's hundreds to thousands of times larger than the sensors typically used in point-and-shoot consumer still and video cameras.

The giant new sensor is also extremely sensitive and capable of extremely fast read-outs, which in turn allows it to shoot video images at high frame rates in very low light. Canon claims the ability to shoot video at 60 frames per second at light levels of 0.3 lux, which means it could easily shoot very good quality, extremely high resolution video in very low light.

But...why?

So, other than bragging rights, what could be the reason for building such an enormous image sensor? What would be the use?

It turns out there are endless uses for a sensor like this. Though Canon has not released the pixel count, it will obviously be capable extremely high image resolution. If it uses a pixel size of 9 microns x 9 microns (9 thousandths of a millimeter square — pure speculation at this point, but a typical pixel size for a professional digital camera) it would mean the new Canon sensor would be able to deliver approximately 488 megapixels per frame, far larger than any other previous single sensor.

That kind of resolution means, for instance, that a photo with this sensor encompassing all 102 stories of the Empire State building would be so detailed that one could make out the faces of every person looking out every window. (Each pixel would cover an area of 16mm x 16mm, or 2/3" x 2/3".) And because the new Canon sensor also boasts very high (0.3 lux) sensitivity and very high (60 frame per second) frame rates, it could show those faces in real time on high-speed video. By moonlight.

Nothing even near that kind of resolution and capability has ever been possible with any previous image sensor.

Don't wait for the pocket camera! According to Canon, the limitation on the size of this sensor is that CMOS silicon wafers (the thin silicon-based disks of which computer chips are made) are currently not large enough to make CMOS sensors any larger. And because that greatly limits the production of sensors like this, the cost of these sensors will always be very, very high, quite possibly in the hundreds of thousands of dollars each. Adding to the cost of a camera for this sensor will be the optics required to make use of it. The very large, extremely high quality optical elements required to use the full resolution of the
sensor could easily cost more and take longer to make than the sensor and support electronics. So cameras using this sensor are not likely ever to be produced in large numbers.

So who will use them?

Use of these sensors will likely be limited to scientific, military, or other specialized applications where such costs can be justified. Astronomers will likely be among the first to use them as sensors for sky surveys where the requirement is for a sensor that can cover a relatively large area of sky while still maintaining high resolution. Aerial mapping, forest and geological surveys, sky surveillance, ground-based satellite tracking, and other such very specialized uses will likely be where these sensors are used, though one can't help wondering what kind of cityscapes, landscapes, and high-resolution movies could be
made with something like this.

But even if they're never available in large numbers, this breakthrough image sensor is likely to redefine what's possible in many forms of imaging. And because the nature of digital electronics is that prices are driven ever downward, it will also likely lead to much improved sensors and technology, potentially all the way down to popular commercial and even personal cameras, making it a very significant breakthrough indeed.

----


----------



## Jethro (Feb 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> I'd love Sigma to make a longer ART macro, akin to the EF 180. So besides that the only other option is the IRIS 150 which gets mixed reviews. I'm not so sure that Canon HAS to make an RF macro at 100mm. Many other brands keep churning out 90 and 105. Lots of folks are happy at 60ish. We all have our own distances at which we like to shoot close up, just because I've always used 100 doesn't mean I might not like something else more.


The Laowa 100mm 2x is about to be released in RF mount in March. The EF mount version (which was on deep discount when I bought it!) didn't work properly on my EOS R so I returned it, so I'll have another try at the RF version when it arrives. I have hopes for it.


----------



## Jethro (Feb 15, 2020)

Max C said:


> Enjoy your EOS R. I’ll enjoy my EOS R6.


Well, many of us have been enjoying our EOS Rs since late 2018. Once we see the new models, with full specs, reviews, price reductions after the initial rush-to-buy etc, some of us will likely (over time) move on to them. In the meantime (and the wait for the R6 will take some time) we'll continue to enjoy our EOS Rs. And thanks for your affirmation of our choices. It means so much to us.


----------



## vuonganhquyen (Feb 15, 2020)

Hope <4k$, i'll take one!


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 15, 2020)

joestopper said:


> I like your prime wish list. But an RF 135 f/1.4 AFFORDABLE? lol ...




Actually they COULD make affordable f/1.4 135mm by using High Refractive Index Acrylic lenses with a sputtered and/or thin film vapour deposition sapphire coating on the front and rear parts of the element --- In fact, a company like SIGMA could EASILY ADAPT their ENTIRE Art Series:

14 mm f/1.4
16 mm f/1.4
20 mm f/1.4
24 mm f/1.4
28 mm f/1.4
30 mm f/1.4
35 mm f/1.4
40 mm f/1.4
50 mm f/1.4
85 mm f/1.4
105 mm f/1.4
135 mm f/1.8

and the

150-600mm F/5-6.3 Sports Zoom

over to Acrylic with a Sapphire coating and the Speeds would go up to f1.2 or even f/1.0 for the primes and the sports zoom would be f/2.8-f4.0 !!!

Sigma could do it and make the lenses for CHEAPER than the current Art Series lenses!

Even though I have access to high-end corporate video/still lenses and camera inventory, I would PERSONALLY buy those sapphire-coated high-refractive-index Acrylic Sigma Art Series lenses in an instant! Change over from Glass elements to Acrylic elements and those new lenses would be REALLY FAST !!!!

--


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 15, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I strangely feel Sigma or Tamron is more likely to give us a new longer than 100 macro than Canon will.
> 
> I appreciate the value of the 180L, but I have never seen one in the field in my entire life.
> 
> - A


The butterflys at the link were all shot handheld with the Canon 180L macro. It’s my only macro lens.





__





Butterflys and Flowers


Butterflys, Flowers Closeup



www.ronbrunsvold.com


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> *Why the Fuss over 8K Video!?*
> 
> Given that tests reveal that most people can't distinguish between 1080P and 4K _at normal viewing distances_, why so much fuss here over 8K in what is essentially a still camera?
> 
> ...



The image you see below has 3 x DCI 4k video screens used for UAV flight control (we used the boxed Canon 1Dcs mounted on wing and nose mounts for this one!) and today we use a much higher-end 360 degree surround-view system for much higher speed flight. The old large-scale 55 inch display flight and sea controller system is now 65 inch OLED eight-screen 360-degree surround-view!

so THIS is what we use 4k and 8k displays for!



--


----------



## David_E (Feb 15, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> _The image you see below has 3 x DCI 4k video screens used for UAV flight control (we used the boxed Canon 1Dcs mounted on wing and nose mounts for this one!) and today we use a much higher-end 360 degree surround-view system for much higher speed flight. The old large-scale 55 inch display flight and sea controller system is now 65 inch OLED eight-screen 360-degree surround-view!
> 
> so THIS is what we use 4k and 8k displays for!_


And this is _typical_ use of DSLR cameras? Man, I _am_ out of it!


----------



## snappy604 (Feb 15, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I strangely feel Sigma or Tamron is more likely to give us a new longer than 100 macro than Canon will.
> 
> I appreciate the value of the 180L, but I have never seen one in the field in my entire life.
> 
> - A


I have a 180L Macro.. it's fantastic.. useless autofocus and nasty shallow DoF, but awesome images out it. Even put a 1.4x TC on it 
(samples of the 180L with an 80D - https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?threads/fly-my-pretty.36271/)

and I hope to get the R5 (if I can get the $) to use with it!


----------



## slclick (Feb 15, 2020)

snappy604 said:


> I have a 180L Macro.. it's fantastic.. useless autofocus and nasty shallow DoF, but awesome images out it. Even put a 1.4x TC on it


Love to hear from some owners of the IRIX 150. Dustin seems to rave about it. I have zero need for AF in a macro lens so there is that going for it. He says it's IQ bests the 100L. Plus it comes with an AS foot!


----------



## Traveler (Feb 15, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> 1. No dedicated buttons for Mode dial


I hope Canon is gonna take advantage of the Mode button (instead of dial) and will allow for higher number of C modes. And the possibility to name them. Would be so nice to be able to create custom modes such as
- portrait
- tripod
- sport
- timelapse
- night street
Etc..

And possibly even chose which parameters it inherits from the main mode and which it overrides. 

I really like the button. I can easily use my thumb to press the Mode button and change the modes without taking my eye away from the viewfinder.
Or use the C-fn button to quickly switch between modes


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 15, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> Amazing the level of responses on this compared the relatively muted response to the 1DX III.
> I'm delighted Canon is bringing out such a camera but where are they going from here.
> I'm sure it will be very expensive but why will you ever need to buy another one?
> 12/20 FPS and 48 MP, 8K and IBIS. Probably decent ISO performance. Eye tracking (The R is pretty decent already at tracking).
> ...


Not really. As unbelievable as the 1dx3 appears it is a camera for a small minority of working pros and cashed up enthusiasts. This camera is a camera that will appeal to a broader range of photographers. As does the R6 in reality(which I think will be a huge seller)


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> And this is _typical_ use of DSLR cameras? Man, I _am_ out of it!



They're a LOT CHEAPER than using $40,000 Canon C300's and C700's like we used to do!

Once the older 1DxMk2 came out, we ordered 60 of them and have put them EVERYWHERE!

Ordered a literal TONNE of Canon CNE and Sigma Art Series Prime and Zoom lenses and have made out splendidly with putting them in Boats, Planes, Spacecraft, Undersea systems, etc. Once that new DCI 8K/50.3 megapixel 120 fps 4:4:4:4 RGBA/YCbCrA RAW 56x42mm sensor MF camera comes out, we'll switch to those!

---


----------



## Quackator (Feb 15, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Take the focal length and divide by f-stop number and what you get is the
> diameter of the aperture. And the entry lens element must be at least as
> big as the aperture.
> Example: 135 f/1.4 -> aperture diameter is 96mm
> That is optics/physics law!



The entrance pupil diameter is not necessarily equal to the aperture 
stop diameter, because of the magnifying effect of lens elements in 
front of the aperture. "Apparent aperture" is the key.

Canon explains it very nicely illustrated in this video:





Note how making the rear elements bigger and putting them closer to the 
sensor allows for smaller overall diameters and better balanced systems.

Yes, that is physics.

And also yes, Sony can't do that with their small mount diameter.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 15, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> The butterflys at the link were all shot handheld with the Canon 180L macro. It’s my only macro lens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, great photos!! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Stig Nygaard (Feb 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> *Why the Fuss over 8K Video!?*



8K in itself my night not be important for you (or me). But is a sign that Canon has done big steps forward when it comes to sensor readout speed. This will improve camera performance in a lot of ways, including for 4K video.

It probably mean less "jello-effect" when panning in 4K videos (compared to similar resolution sensors with slower readout). It might mean it is possible to do fullsensor 4K/60p with dualpixel AF. It probably also reduces EVF lag and increases AF performance.

8K video in R5 will probably be RAW only. One thing is having reached the sensor readout speed making 8K possible, another thing is the processing needed to transfer 8K into a common videoformat. Also even simple contrast based AF probably requires some of that processing, so I expect the 8K RAW video to be *without* AF. DEFINITELY without dualpixel AF, which would require two times "8K readout" from sensor. For sure that ain't possible in first generation 8K.

But point is, the good news is not 8K. The good news is the high speed of sensor readout apparently achieved.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 15, 2020)

Only one thing left to wish for: Global shutter with full flash support.
Imagine fill flash for sports across distances of 100 ft or more......


----------



## PVCC (Feb 15, 2020)

I'm a bit confused..

So, there won't be an *R6*?

And any guess on the price range of *R5*?

Thank you!!


----------



## photographer (Feb 15, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> True, but you may not want to split atoms with a portrait lens. Every skin pore becomes visible.



You only have to take pictures of young girls.


----------



## Joules (Feb 15, 2020)

PVCC said:


> I'm a bit confused..
> 
> So, there won't be an *R6*?
> 
> ...


Canon only announcing the R5 development does not mean there won't be an R6.

There have been numerous guesses for the price of the R5, ranging from the low 3000 all the way to the 6000 range. They are all just guesses.

Having some patience and looking forward to these exciting times for Canon shotters seems to be the most reasonable thing to me.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 15, 2020)

Quackator said:


> The entrance pupil diameter is not necessarily equal to the aperture
> stop diameter, because of the magnifying effect of lens elements in
> front of the aperture. "Apparent aperture" is the key.



Yes, and that effect is necessarily used in most zoom lenses, otherwise they would be _very_ dark zoomed in.

BUT, the apparent aperture can physically not be larger than the frontmost element, because that one uniquely determines how much light gets in. There’s no way around it, you can’t multiply the number of photons after they’re already in (without photomultiplier electronics that is).


----------



## padam (Feb 15, 2020)

PVCC said:


> I'm a bit confused..
> 
> So, there won't be an *R6*?
> 
> ...


It is made similarly to the EOS R, but with the IBIS, dual card slots, refined controls, upgraded battery, faster shutter, new sensor and processor added in - and all the advancements that come with these.

So now it is a 5D equivalent class professional mirrorless camera as the R5 naming scheme implies.

So the 3600-4000$ range seems most likely, probably closer to the latter number and the somewhat more affordable the R6 could be priced around 2300-2500$.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 15, 2020)

joestopper said:


> I like your prime wish list. But an RF 135 f/1.4 AFFORDABLE? lol ...


There will never be an RF 135mm f/1.4L.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 15, 2020)

RicoB said:


> Yeah ok, I was reaching there.. LOL. But Sigma makes a 1.8 version for Sony at around $1,400 so a Canon non-L RF f/1.8 in this focal length may be good enough IF sharp wide open and the pricing around $1,700.


Rico, if Canon makes an RF 135mm f/1.8 you'd better believe it will be "L" and probably close to $3k. Just my opinion. I'd love to be wrong.


----------



## padam (Feb 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> There will never be an RF 135mm f/1.4L.


It's like saying there never be an RF 28-70mm f/2L.
Might have been true for the old EF mount, but with the RF mount, it is certainly possible to make it.
Although they probably won't do a 70-135mm f/2 tele zoom and the 135mm f/1.4 prime, they will do one of two, and of course it may take some time.


----------



## Del Paso (Feb 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> There will never be an RF 135mm f/1.4L.


Unfortunately, I'm "afraid", you're right.
Fortunately, because I could never justify buying it...


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 15, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> Unfortunately, I'm "afraid", you're right.
> Fortunately, because I could never justify buying it...


I'd buy it if they made it, just because it was there.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 15, 2020)

padam said:


> It's like saying there never be an RF 28-70mm f/2L.
> Might have been true for the old EF mount, but with the RF mount, it is certainly possible to make it.
> Although they probably won't do a 70-135mm f/2 tele zoom and the 135mm f/1.4 prime, they will do one of two, and of course it may take some time.


Now don't go dashing my hopes for a RF 70-135mm f/2L!


----------



## Go Wild (Feb 15, 2020)

sanj said:


> Awesome. And you are 100% right about 4k. I would not shoot even a simple thing like a training video on 1080. It has to be 4k!!!


Thanks!   There is no point in recording 1080p now, unless if you are making some holiday movies. If you are working in image you will want that your video stay updated for some time, and 4k is more and more in the houses. In 2/3 years almost all tvs in people´s home will be 4k. And you will want to have 4k content to show....Even if you don´t deliver the project in 4k, but you still have it in 4k to export later.




Jack Douglas said:


> Great reply and great video. I doubt it'll do much good though ... well maybe it might convince a few.
> 
> Jack


Thanks Jack. It´s normal that people who only shoots stills disregard the video specs. But the times of video cameras only and stills cameras only are almost over. We will see more and more hybrid cameras that can make both things. I believe cinema cameras will remain, but we will have more and more professional cameras that make video and photo.



AEWest said:


> Another reason to include high spec video on a still camera is to help consolidate the number of camera models by Canon. Sure some would prefer less video features if it were less costly.
> 
> But Canon would prefer to have a capable jack-of-all-trades R5 that covers the needs of the vast majority of pros. Much better for the bean counters in a shrinking market.


Of course, if you put more power into a camera it will be expected that the camera can reach more potencial buyers and also different kind of buyers. I don´t know if Canon will make a video centric mirrorless, but with this R5 it will certainly attract not only photographers but a


Stig Nygaard said:


> 8K in itself my night not be important for you (or me). But is a sign that Canon has done big steps forward when it comes to sensor readout speed. This will improve camera performance in a lot of ways, including for 4K video.
> 
> It probably mean less "jello-effect" when panning in 4K videos (compared to similar resolution sensors with slower readout). It might mean it is possible to do fullsensor 4K/60p with dualpixel AF. It probably also reduces EVF lag and increases AF performance.
> 
> ...


Yes, that´s it. Personally, i don´t care about 8k, it´s too much at this point and the file size will be huge. But....that represents a lot to Canon and of course, like you said, it will give us better sensor readout. 
Possibly I will use it when the scene justifies it, don´t know....

Having 8k is like condoms! Better have it and don´t use it, than need it and don´t have it!!


----------



## photographer (Feb 15, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> I know I have answered a similar post before, but I think it is worth repeating. No need to weep for those like myself who bought the R. And really no need to insult us with your moronic "koolaid" comment.
> 
> You see, not everyone just reads the spec list. Each photographer will have some items that they care more about than others. And - perhaps more importantly, having specs does not mean the specs are worth having if they don't function well.
> 
> ...



In addition, we buy the body (unlike lenses) for a few years. So in the future we will buy a new R (5, 5s, 6, ...) body, but we will continue to use great EF and RF lenses for many years to come.


----------



## Del Paso (Feb 15, 2020)

Quackator said:


> The entrance pupil diameter is not necessarily equal to the aperture
> stop diameter, because of the magnifying effect of lens elements in
> front of the aperture. "Apparent aperture" is the key.
> 
> ...


Closer to the sensor rear elements have one disadvantage: the impossibility using an extender with protruding front elements (cf.RF 2,8/70-200).


----------



## katysei (Feb 15, 2020)

The body looks bulkier than eos R, and rumours prcing it around $4000
I do hope r6 will be more like RP and much cheaper.(sub $2000)


----------



## brad-man (Feb 15, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> Closer to the sensor rear elements have one disadvantage: the impossibility using an extender with protruding front elements (cf.RF 2,8/70-200).


It's only a problem if you try to use an EF extender on an RF lens. So don't do that. Wait for an RF extender...


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 15, 2020)

brad-man said:


> It's only a problem if you try to use an EF extender on an RF lens. So don't do that. Wait for an RF extender...



No, the RF extenders that were just announced at the same time as the R5 protrude far into the lens… Obviously you can’t even try to use an EF extender with an RF lens because the mounts aren’t physically compatible.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 15, 2020)

brad-man said:


> It's only a problem if you try to use an EF extender on an RF lens. So don't do that. Wait for an RF extender...


Canon announced those as well and, no, they won’t work on the RF70-200.


----------



## Del Paso (Feb 15, 2020)

Max C said:


> The current EOS R was dead on arrival!
> 
> It simply does not compare to the others in its price range. Like the A7III. The Sony came with IBIS, dual slots, uncropped 4k and extensive lense range.
> 
> ...


The EOS R FORTUNATELY doesn't compare to the soni 7 IIi.
It doesn't have:
-Poor service
-Poor ergonomics
-Silly menu
-unreliable dust-removing
But if somebody can live with all these shortcomings, why not...


----------



## brad-man (Feb 15, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Canon announced those as well and, no, they won’t work on the RF70-200.


I must have missed any mention yet of which lenses the RF converters will work on. Would you please provide a link?


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 15, 2020)

brad-man said:


> I must have missed any mention yet of which lenses the RF converters will work on. Would you please provide a link?



There’s no official word as of yet, but the way they protrude into the lens makes them almost certainly mechanically unusable with any lens with a short backfocus distance.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Feb 15, 2020)

Stig Nygaard said:


> 8K in itself my night not be important for you (or me). But is a sign that Canon has done big steps forward when it comes to sensor readout speed. This will improve camera performance in a lot of ways, including for 4K video.
> 
> It probably mean less "jello-effect" when panning in 4K videos (compared to similar resolution sensors with slower readout). It might mean it is possible to do fullsensor 4K/60p with dualpixel AF. It probably also reduces EVF lag and increases AF performance.
> 
> ...



Very insightful about the flow on benifits of achieving 8k... promising!

I've heard this theory a few times now that the 8k could only be raw due to processor limitations... I'd love to believe that's the case but wouldn't that severly undercut the c500 mark ii ? I have a hunch they may return to MJPEG


----------



## Go Wild (Feb 15, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Very insightful about the flow on benifits of achieving 8k... promising!
> 
> I've heard this theory a few times now that the 8k could only be raw due to processor limitations... I'd love to believe that's the case but wouldn't that severly undercut the c500 mark ii ? I have a hunch they may return to MJPEG


Wiil they undercut the C500? Well.....yeah...a bit, but at the same time...no. It´s a different kind of users. People who buy the C500 mkII they don´t care about mirrorless or hybrid cameras, in these days those cameras have some video directed specifications that make those people want that camera. I see this as a different users. In some situations they might cross...like me. I do have a cinema camera and I will sell it because i think, for what i do that having the new 1dxmkIII and this EOS R5 I can make the jobs without need to have another cinema "only" camera! With the plus...that I also don´t need to have a separate camera for stills! And this is the power of hybrid cameras and why i love it so much! You carry less stuff and you also benefict of all the good thinks of DSLR or mirrorless! But, cinema line cameras users....i think they wont trade those cameras for this ones. 

MJPEG SCARES ME A LOT! I am also starting to think that Canon might put that crappy codec on this one! It´s the only thing I hate in 1dxmkII video! I am praying hard that the R5 has the same codec of the 1dxmkIII and also records HEVC or H.265.


----------



## brad-man (Feb 15, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> There’s no official word as of yet, but the way they protrude into the lens makes them almost certainly mechanically unusable with any lens with a short backfocus distance.


You are quite correct. But since one of the virtues of the RF mount _is_ the short back focus distance, I would question the accuracy of the images of the RF converters at the beginning of the RF100-500 thread. I find it highly unlikely that Canon would design its own teleconverters to not work with the RF 70-200. IOW, the images of the RF converters are bogus.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Not necessarily. I will delete images during a lull while in the field whatever the fullness of the memory card. Same when I return to hotel room.





BeenThere said:


> I do a lot of deleting in camera after a day’s shoot. For BIF type shooting there are a lot of frames either out of focus, poor exposure with blown highlights, part of bird cut off, or lousy composition or background. I toss these immediately. Many more get tossed when I get to the computer. Never had any regrets. For landscapes, I usually keep all until I cull at the computer.



How many shots have you missed that you didn't even see while you were chimping instead of watching?

Memory cards are cheap.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 15, 2020)

brad-man said:


> You are quite correct. But since one of the virtues of the RF mount _is_ the short back focus distance, I would question the accuracy of the images of the RF converters at the beginning of this thread. I find it highly unlikely that Canon would design the RF 70-200 to not be compatable with its own teleconverters.



Question the accuracy of Canon’s own press release images? On the contrary, I’m fairly sure that they’re accurate. Short BF distance also has its disadvantages.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Feb 15, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> Wiil they undercut the C500? Well.....yeah...a bit, but at the same time...no. It´s a different kind of users. People who buy the C500 mkII they don´t care about mirrorless or hybrid cameras, in these days those cameras have some video directed specifications that make those people want that camera. I see this as a different users. In some situations they might cross...like me. I do have a cinema camera and I will sell it because i think, for what i do that having the new 1dxmkIII and this EOS R5 I can make the jobs without need to have another cinema "only" camera! With the plus...that I also don´t need to have a separate camera for stills! And this is the power of hybrid cameras and why i love it so much! You carry less stuff and you also benefict of all the good thinks of DSLR or mirrorless! But, cinema line cameras users....i think they wont trade those cameras for this ones.
> 
> MJPEG SCARES ME A LOT! I am also starting to think that Canon might put that crappy codec on this one! It´s the only thing I hate in 1dxmkII video! I am praying hard that the R5 has the same codec of the 1dxmkIII and also records HEVC or H.265.



That's true that a lot of cinema camera users will prefer the form factor and extra features of those type of cameras. But there will also be a large number of people like yourself who may no longer see the point of owning a seperate cinema camera and stills camera when they can just combune the two.

I think it would be safe to say that if Canon did 8k Raw internally in this form factor the camera would be totally revolutionary! But like you, I'm thinking the MJPEG may be all we get... wouldn't the 1dxiii do 5.5k h265 if it could? I think heat might be the reason 5.5k is raw only?

Aaahhh so many unknowns!


----------



## scyrene (Feb 15, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> However, how you interpret this: "...as well as process 8K video into higher-quality 4K video."



I interpret it to mean, one answer to 'why do we need 8K?' is 'you can downsample it into crisper 4K' (just a people have said they do with 4K to HD). It's nothing to do with what the camera is outputting. I think people are trying to second guess Canon's words too much.


----------



## brad-man (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> How many shots have you missed that you didn't even see while you were chimping instead of watching?
> 
> Memory cards are cheap.


He did say "after a day's shoot."


----------



## Kit. (Feb 15, 2020)

telemaque said:


> I am chemical engineer, so I can understand technical stuff when clarified to me.
> You can dive into details if necessary.
> I understand your comments on 8k30 and 4K30.
> Now I do not undersand why in 4K above 30fps you get a crop factor?


_If_ the sensor bandwidth is barely enough to scan the whole 8k area of the sensor at 30 fps (which seems highly likely, alhough maybe Canon will surprise us), _then_ you need to reduce the amount of pixels scanned at higher fps to stay below the bandwidth limit.


----------



## brad-man (Feb 15, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Question the accuracy of Canon’s own press release images? On the contrary, I’m fairly sure that they’re accurate. Short BF distance also has its disadvantages.


I do question them. If they are accurate, then the converters won't be compatible with any lenses other than long telephotos which haven't even had development announcements yet. That strikes me as being silly and unlikely...


----------



## scyrene (Feb 15, 2020)

Quackator said:


> No. Don't forget that with the new RF mount capabilities, Canon has
> started to put the big heavy glass to the back of the lens, resulting in
> overall better balance and smaller filter threads.



Although they have demonstrated with the mark III supertelephoto lenses that putting elements further back for weight saving/better balance (in telephoto designs at least) is possible in EF mount, too. I'm not sure RF has much advantage in longer lenses.


----------



## scyrene (Feb 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> Yes, very nice. Location, location, location. Video quality is every bit as good as 1080p when seen on my 5K 27” iMac at a distance of ~6-8 feet.



You sit 6-8 feet away from your computer?


----------



## joestopper (Feb 15, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> Actually they COULD make affordable f/1.4 135mm by using High Refractive Index Acrylic lenses with a sputtered and/or thin film vapour deposition sapphire coating on the front and rear parts of the element --- In fact, a company like SIGMA could EASILY ADAPT their ENTIRE Art Series:
> 
> 14 mm f/1.4
> 16 mm f/1.4
> ...




Acrylic lenses have a lower refraction index than glass. Would make them bigger than glass elements.
Why do you get the idea that acrylic lenses would be cheaper? The number and kind of process steps is what costs money, not the material itself.


----------



## scyrene (Feb 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> Love to hear from some owners of the IRIX 150. Dustin seems to rave about it. I have zero need for AF in a macro lens so there is that going for it. He says it's IQ bests the 100L. Plus it comes with an AS foot!



I'd imagine that AF was more important in longer macro lenses, as they're more likely to be used for moving subjects (like insects).


----------



## Go Wild (Feb 15, 2020)

scyrene said:


> I interpret it to mean, one answer to 'why do we need 8K?' is 'you can downsample it into crisper 4K' (just a people have said they do with 4K to HD). It's nothing to do with what the camera is outputting. I think people are trying to second guess Canon's words too much.


It´s the Hype.....We waited so much for this one, now we are anxious....At least I am!!  I have payed more attention to Canon release and yes, they do State they will deliver 8k video recording.  This is my dream camera!  






Chris.Chapterten said:


> That's true that a lot of cinema camera users will prefer the form factor and extra features of those type of cameras. But there will also be a large number of people like yourself who may no longer see the point of owning a seperate cinema camera and stills camera when they can just combune the two.
> 
> I think it would be safe to say that if Canon did 8k Raw internally in this form factor the camera would be totally revolutionary! But like you, I'm thinking the MJPEG may be all we get... wouldn't the 1dxiii do 5.5k h265 if it could? I think heat might be the reason 5.5k is raw only?
> 
> Aaahhh so many unknowns!




We have to wait a bit longer to dissipate doubts.... I don´t care if only 8k is mjpeg if all the other formats are H.265!  Well....let´s wait to see! Damn, July is sooo far away!


----------



## scyrene (Feb 15, 2020)

PVCC said:


> So, there won't be an *R6*?



Why do you think that?



PVCC said:


> And any guess on the price range of *R5*?



Plenty of guesses in the thread above - but they are just that, guesses.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 15, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Acrylic lenses have a lower refraction index than glass. Would make them bigger than glass elements.
> Why do you get the idea that acrylic lenses would be cheaper? The number and kind of process steps is what costs money, not the material itself.



Technically, you are very correct in that Acrylic has a refractive index of 1.4917 while Soda-lime glass is 1.523 .... BUT .... since Acrylic can be fairly easily CNC MACHINED you can get those fancy symmetric and asymmetric compound convex and concave curves that help with light gathering that helps you get a FASTER lens. The thin film deposition Sapphire coating is for protective anti-scratch purposes only.

At some point year ago, I actually asked an optics engineer as to why more photo/video lenses aren't made of Acrylic (RI=1.4917) or Polycarbonate (1.5848) and I was told that scratches are the number one problem that is simply not easily fixable without special coatings. Plus the rate of expansion/contraction is an issue and "Glass-like Creep" over time may be an issue AND there is susceptibility to breakdown caused by UV light .....BUT.... she also said that custom formulations and coatings ARE starting to allow more use in video/stills imaging systems within harsh environments.

Acrylic/Polycarbonate lenses ARE cheaper to make because of CNC Machinability and easily-automated polishing!

For visible light, there is research into using doped Cubic Zirconia (IR = 2.173), Silicon Carbide (IR = 2.65) and Titanium Dioxide (IR = 2.614) to make ultra fast imaging lenses that have micro-machined (i.e. nanoscale) "Waveguiding and Light-shaping" structures (i.e. Nanopillars) to allow the creation of lenses that look opaque and/or milky to the human eye BUT allow optical wavelengths to pass through in a highly structured manner out to specific photosites of a nearby or surface-bonded CMOS sensor.

This type of lens is more for satellite imaging since photo/video enthusiasts LIKELY will find the look and feel of these types of lenses to be UNATTRACTIVE and unacceptable for their "hobby" or work even though they would be SUPER-FAST lenses!

In terms of MASS PRODUCTION LENSES that are TOUGH, heat resistant, glass-creep-resistant, a CLEAR RUBY or SAPPHIRE (IR = 1.77) aka Al2O3, would ALSO work as ultra-high end FAST lens material but it looks like we are YEARS away from production of large BULK BLOCKS of such material on a cost effective basis.

So as a final answer, Polycarbonate is BEST for making the fastest lightweight plastic lenses (i.e. faster than Glass) BUT Acrylic is easier to machine and polish! They just need to get the anti-scratch coatings right!

---


----------



## David_E (Feb 15, 2020)

scyrene said:


> You sit 6-8 feet away from your computer?


Not when working! That’s the appropriate distance for watching an HD video.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

brad-man said:


> He did say "after a day's shoot."



He also said in another comment, "Not necessarily. I will delete images during a lull while in the field whatever the fullness of the memory card. "


----------



## joestopper (Feb 15, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> Technically, you are very correct in that Acrylic has a refractive index of 1.4917 while Soda-lime glass is 1.523 .... BUT .... since Acrylic can be fairly easily CNC MACHINED you can get those fancy symmetric and asymmetric compound convex and concave curves that help with light gathering that helps you get a FASTER lens. The thin film deposition Sapphire coating is for protective anti-scratch purposes only.
> 
> At some point year ago, I actually asked an optics engineer as to why more photo/video lenses aren't made of Acrylic (RI=1.4917) or Polycarbonate (1.5848) and I was told that scratches are the number one problem that is simply not easily fixable without special coatings. Plus the rate of expansion/contraction is an issue and "Glass-like Creep" over time may be an issue AND there is susceptibility to breakdown caused by UV light .....BUT.... she also said that custom formulations and coatings ARE starting to allow more use in video/stills imaging systems within harsh environments.
> 
> ...


You seem to be deep into materials.
I understand that CNC machining is possible as opposed to glass. But, of course, CNC machining is coarse i.e. in mico meter but not in nano meter which still requires polishing. Not sure how it behaves at differing temperatures though i.e. contraction/expansion ...


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> The 135L doesn't sell well because:
> 
> It's 24 years old and what was once famously sharp is no longer
> It does not have IS
> ...



The EF 135mm f/2 L isn't just about how sharp it is or isn't. It's also about how good the out of focus areas look. There's still no other 135mm lens on the market that has as smooth OOF areas as the 135L.

Lenses today are sacrificed at the altar of the Gods of The Flat Test Chart, because that's all most anyone looks at when comparing lenses. The flat field correction needed to get the edges of a chart as sharp as possible while the lens is at best focus for the center of the chart also make the out of focus areas less pleasing.

I've been shooting with an EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II since 2010. It's a great tool for a lot of things, and I've probably taken more frames with it than any other lens I've ever owned, if for no other reason than sports and action shoots tend to be high-numbers-of-frames affairs. But if I know I can get away with only 135mm instead of needing more of the zoom's range, I always reach for the 135L.

Every.Single.Time.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Kit. said:


> And _who exactly_ do you think I added the stuff in the parentheses for?
> 
> The alternative to writing these images "slowly" is not writing them "quickly", but not writing them at all.



Or writing them quickly to another card...


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

peters said:


> Nearly perfect design in my opinion  Only thing I would have wished for: the power-on-off-switch on the top left is pretty much a waste of space. They could have put a classic mode dial there. And the power-switch could be at the shutter , which is the best place to put it, like Nikon and Panasonic do. ALso the screen looks a bit small (the actualy screen, not the blat matte in this image. Its seen in the 360° video that its smaller then the whole area).
> 
> Other than that, its perfect  I am happy to see a dedicated rating button, something very importang in my opinion. Also so silly touch bar  just an awesome button layout =)



I do not want a power switch anywhere near the shutter button. I've fixed them (or not been able to fix without tearing the body down, which I do not do for cameras not owned by me) way too many times for friends who have Nikons and the power switch gets a bit of debris down inside it.


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## padam (Feb 15, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I think it would be safe to say that if Canon did 8k Raw internally in this form factor the camera would be totally revolutionary! But like you, I'm thinking the MJPEG may be all we get... wouldn't the 1dxiii do 5.5k h265 if it could? I think heat might be the reason 5.5k is raw only?


We can forget the MJPEG, Canon did in 2016 with the 5D Mark IV, which was the last camera to come with it, only the 1DC and 1DX Mark II had it besides that (and having a Digic 6 or older Digic 5+ processor)
It is either H.264 or H.265 it will very likely have the same Digic X processor, so it should have similarities codec-wise as well.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Feb 15, 2020)

padam said:


> We can forget the MJPEG, Canon did in 2016 with the 5D Mark IV, which was the last camera to come with it, only the 1DC and 1DX Mark II had it besides that (and having a Digic 6 or older Digic 5+ processor)
> It is either H.264 or H.265 it will very likely have the same Digic X processor, so it should have similarities codec-wise as well.



Good point, I hope you're right. Also have fingers crossed that the 8k is at least 10bit


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> $800 or so and you and your lost love could be reunited. Canon refurbs sell out quickly, but they are out there occasionally.
> 
> Also, now that mirrorless unlocks the MF assist door, the Sigma 135 f/1.8 Art is supposed to split atoms if you don't mind 3rd party.
> 
> - A



I had been watching the Canon refurb store for over a year waiting on an EF 135mmf/2 L to show up. There might have been a time or two when I was away from the computer for a few minutes and by the time I saw the notification less than an hour after being listed "in stock" it/they were already gone. I finally broke down and grabbed an also relatively rare at the time refurbed EF 100mm f/2. A few months later a 135L showed up in stock and I snatched it up. The 100/2 hasn't been used since other than to do AFMA with bodies bought since then. I really ought to sell it.


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## diegopisante (Feb 15, 2020)

I was really wishing the R5 was coming with personal buttons for ISO, drive, flash....that is what I miss a lot coming from 5D series. It's a pain go into M-fn button on an event and find what you need.


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## slclick (Feb 15, 2020)

diegopisante said:


> I was really wishing the R5 was coming with personal buttons for ISO, drive, flash....that is what I miss a lot coming from 5D series. It's a pain go into M-fn button on an event and find what you need.


There is quite a bit of information still to come, we might be pleasantly surprised on just how customizable it may be. Also, you have the control ring as well


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## Chris.Chapterten (Feb 15, 2020)

diegopisante said:


> I was really wishing the R5 was coming with personal buttons for ISO, drive, flash....that is what I miss a lot coming from 5D series. It's a pain go into M-fn button on an event and find what you need.



I'm in the same boat, really suprised they didn't at least put a dedicated iso button on the camera... at least the control ring on the lens can be set to that function I suppose


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

brad-man said:


> I do question them. If they are accurate, then the converters won't be compatible with any lenses other than long telephotos which haven't even had development announcements yet. That strikes me as being silly and unlikely...



Typically Canon has released new versions of the 1.4X and 2X extenders at the same time as at least one or two new versions of Big White lenses. We don't know what all of the "eight" new RF lenses this year will be. I wouldn't be surprised if an RF 300mm f/2.8 and an RF 500mm f/4 would be two of them.


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## padam (Feb 15, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I'm in the same boat, really suprised they didn't at least put a dedicated iso button on the camera... at least the control ring on the lens can be set to that function I suppose


With the addition of the scroll-wheel that was absent on the R or RP, now you have four separate wheels on the camera and lens together. Front dial, back dial, control ring, scroll-wheel.

Is that not enough, really?


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## slclick (Feb 15, 2020)

padam said:


> With the addition of the scroll-wheel that was absent on the R or RP, now you have four separate wheels on the camera and lens together. Front dial, back dial, control ring, scroll-wheel.
> 
> Is that not enough, really?


I'm loving the look of clean real estate. I cannot deal with most of the ML tops, those EC dials drive me crazy. The R5 is looking svelte


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> Have to be 1.8? How about a reworking of the OG magikal 135L? Add some IS and spectra-wonder coatings....BOOM! at f/2 it would be *new* magic on RF.
> 
> F/2 is more than fine, all this fighting for the lowest f stop is nuts.



People who buy lenses because they need "one of each focal length" (as opposed to those who buy a lens for a specific photographic need and understand how to match a lens to a use case instead of getting what every reviewer say is "the best" at that focal length/aperture) base their buying decision on flat test chart performance, even if shooting flat test charts or doing other 2D document reproduction is not what they think they want to do with the lens some day. Designing a lens to be best at rendering flat test charts from edge to edge and corner to corner comes at the expense of the smooth out of focus areas that give the EF 135mm f/2 L its "magic."

In an age of the Gods of the Flat Test Chart such a 135mm lens would be dismissed as "hopelessly soft" and "outdated" compared to the current crop of fast 135mm lenses that render OOF backgrounds like garbage - but do very well at reproducing flat test charts.


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## padam (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Typically Canon has released new versions of the 1.4X and 2X extenders at the same time as at least one or two new versions of Big White lenses. We don't know what all of the "eight" new RF lenses this year will be. I wouldn't be surprised if an RF 300mm f/2.8 and an RF 500mm f/4 would be two of them.









Actually, there is only five of them remaining.
And I don't think they need to rush it until they have a sports oriented body to match these, they are better off coming with other lenses that sell better.
So I don't expect super telephoto primes just yet, the EF lenses will probably just do fine for now.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> Ok and thats what i want to believe it is also! I know that and thats why i put the example of Sony delivering 4k oversampling a 6k image and they also dont quote the camera as a 6k camera.
> 
> However, how you interpret this: "...as well as process 8K video into higher-quality 4K video." Again, this are not my words, this is the announcement statement from Canon. And again, this for me at least is the least important thing in the R5. I will/would buy the camera with the 4k60 without the 8k.



Maybe if that were the only reference to 8K, _but that's not the only place they mention 8K video_.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

padam said:


> Actually, there is only five of them remaining.
> And I don't think they need to rush it until they have a sports oriented body to match these, they are better off coming with other lenses that sell better.
> So I don't expect super telephoto primes just yet, the EF lenses will probably just do fine for now.



Who said there were eight "remaining" unknown lenses? Not I.

The point remains, we know what four of them are and the other four or five out of the eight or nine are unknown at this time.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Feb 15, 2020)

padam said:


> With the addition of the scroll-wheel that was absent on the R or RP, now you have four separate wheels on the camera and lens together. Front dial, back dial, control ring, scroll-wheel.
> 
> Is that not enough, really?



I'll make do. I just like having a dedicated iso button... not a deal breaker


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## padam (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Who said there were eight "remaining" unknown lenses? Not I.
> 
> The point remains, we know what four of them are and the other eight or nine are unknown at this time.


There are seven new RF lenses for this year as you can see, so it is wrong either way.


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## padam (Feb 15, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I'll make do. I just like having a dedicated iso button... not a deal breaker


Especially considering that on the EOS R, you _can _assign a button to be a dedicated iso button.
And the R5 and R6 will have at least the same level of customisation.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

I think Canon is hoping to release a full suite of lenses sooner rather than later, but with the expectation that many users will take several years to "catch up" and buy one or a few at a time until they get each of the ones that they want. That's one reason they made to transition from EF as painless as possible - so loyal customers could take time to transition to the new mount. 

I'm sure Canon also thinks this strategy allows them to charge more for each lens, as many potential buyers will have a more or less fixed amount they can spend per month/quarter/year on their "lens habit" and higher prices will only mean it will take longer to to fill out what each buyer wants from the new offerings.


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## PureClassA (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Typically Canon has released new versions of the 1.4X and 2X extenders at the same time as at least one or two new versions of Big White lenses. We don't know what all of the "eight" new RF lenses this year will be. I wouldn't be surprised if an RF 300mm f/2.8 and an RF 500mm f/4 would be two of them.


You have to imagine that with an R1X maybe a year or so away from being announced... Canon will definitely want a stable of some great whites ready to roll like the ones you mentioned. I'm more curious to know how much time and effort it's taking Canon to (essentially) tweak already fantastic EF lens designs for RF. How far back towards "square one" are they having to go with already well established EF designs? 

Obviously the new 70-200L looks almost completely different with how short it is. But the 24-70 looks mostly similar. The 85L looks mostly similar. The 50L as well. But 50 and 85 primes are relatively easy focal lengths to make. Seems more like the designs are showing the most differences in the zooms. 

As for the telephoto L primes, I'm imagining those could be relatively simple re-works of existing EF, like they did with the 85L. Then again...Lot's of existing EF great whites will just get adapted to RF.


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## Keith_Reeder (Feb 15, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I'm in the same boat, really suprised they didn't at least put a dedicated iso button on the camera... at least the control ring on the lens can be set to that function I suppose


There's no excuse not to use Auto ISO on a camera like this.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> You have to imagine that with an R1X maybe a year or so away from being announced... Canon will definitely want a stable of some great whites ready to roll like the ones you mentioned. I'm more curious to know how much time and effort it's taking Canon to (essentially) tweak already fantastic EF lens designs for RF. How far back towards "square one" are they having to go with already well established EF designs?
> 
> Obviously the new 70-200L looks almost completely different with how short it is. But the 24-70 looks mostly similar. The 85L looks mostly similar. The 50L as well. But 50 and 85 primes are relatively easy focal lengths to make. Seems more like the designs are showing the most differences in the zooms.
> 
> As for the telephoto L primes, I'm imagining those could be relatively simple re-works of existing EF, like they did with the 85L. Then again...Lot's of existing EF great whites will just get adapted to RF.



I think the RF 300/2.8 and RF 500/4 will be redesigns along the same lines as the EF 400/2.8 and EF 600/4, but with a longer rear housing.


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## Go Wild (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Maybe if that were the only reference to 8K, _but that's not the only place they mention 8K video_.


yeah, I have payed more attention to Canon release and yes, they do State they will deliver 8k video recording.


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## Keith_Reeder (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> He also said in another comment, "Not necessarily. I will delete images during a lull while in the field whatever the fullness of the memory card. "


"Lull" rather suggests there's nothing for him to miss, don't you think?


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

padam said:


> There are seven new RF lenses for this year as you can see, so it is wrong either way.



Seven lenses were for 2019, not 2020.

There are nine slots for this year on your attached chart. Last year CR said there would be eight in 2020. So it's "approximately eight or nine." Of those "approximately eight or nine", we know what four of them are. That leaves "approximately four or five" others that we don't yet know.

In my previous comment my mind got ahead of my fingers. I've went back and included the missing words so it says what I meant:

"The point remains, we know what four of them are and the other four or five out of the eight or nine are unknown at this time. "


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> There's no excuse not to use Auto ISO on a camera like this.



Some shooting situations are more conducive to auto ISO than others. Not everyone shoots the same thing you do the same way you do. I rarely use Auto ISO because I don't usually shoot in situations that are best shot using it. With multiple off-camera flashes, for instance, AUTO ISO is worse than useless.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> "Lull" rather suggests there's nothing for him to miss, don't you think?



If you've ever shot wildlife, or even a crime scene or fire department fighting a fire from a distance, you would know that "lull" can become "shot of the year" in the blink of an eye. It can be like combat has been described: Endless hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror.


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## Keith_Reeder (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> If you've ever shot wildlife


Oh, FFS - _seriously?_ That's pretty much all I've done for the last 15 years! 

I don't need you to lecture me on the realities of wildlife photography (or the Real World value of Auto ISO, for that matter).


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## Keith_Reeder (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Some shooting situations are more conducive to auto ISO than others. Not everyone shoots the same thing you do the same way you do. I rarely use Auto ISO because I don't usually shoot in situations that are best shot using it. With multiple off-camera flashes, for instance, AUTO ISO is worse than useless.


Who uses Auto ISO with multiple off-camera flashes? 

But no, you carry on making up your Strawman arguments to "prove" your point.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Oh, FFS - _seriously?_ That's pretty much all I've done for the last 15 years!
> 
> I don't need you to lecture me on the realities of wildlife photography (or the Real World value of Auto ISO, for that matter).



I'm not lecturing you about the real world value of Auto ISO. As I've already said, there are situations where it is very useful. I'm taking you to task implying that it is the *ONLY* viable option for all shooting scenarios. It is not.


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## padam (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Seven lenses were for 2019, not 2020.
> 
> There are nine slots for this year on your attached chart. Last year CR said there would be eight in 2020. So it's "approximately eight or nine." Of those "approximately eight or nine", we know what four of them are. That leaves "approximately four or five" others that we don't yet know.
> 
> ...


Not sure why you are arguing about something, that has been clearly laid out by Canon itself. It's called an official roadmap.
It is Not a rumour you know, which is not to be taken as granted 
Of course I did not count the teleconverters as 'lenses', so there is five more out of seven lenses in total for 2020. No more, no less, but you can continue denying it


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

padam said:


> Not sure why you are arguing about something, that has been clearly laid out by Canon itself. It's called an official roadmap.
> It is Not a rumour you know, which is not to be taken as granted
> Of course I did not count the teleconverters as 'lenses', so there is five more out of seven lenses in total for 2020. No more, no less, but you can continue denying it



Canon counts extenders as lenses, and obviously included them in two of the nine slots on your attached roadmap.

But even if they are not, and there are going to be seven lenses, then we only know what two of those seven are. That leaves five yet to be revealed.

5 > 2


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## Deleted member 381342 (Feb 15, 2020)

padam said:


> Actually, there is only five of them remaining.
> And I don't think they need to rush it until they have a sports oriented body to match these, they are better off coming with other lenses that sell better.
> So I don't expect super telephoto primes just yet, the EF lenses will probably just do fine for now.



What are we putting the 1.4 and 2x converters on then? Surely not the 100-500(which would make a 1000mm f/14)


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## Keith_Reeder (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I'm taking you to task implying that it is the *ONLY* viable option for all shooting scenarios. It is not.


You got _that_ from what I wrote? (Actually, I know you didn't. You made it up so that you had an excuse to pontificate).

I didn't "imply" anything. I stated very clearly - in response someone lamenting the apparent lack of an ISO button on the R5 - that "there's no excuse not to use Auto ISO on a camera like this".

There's simply no debating the fact that well-executed Auto ISO removes the need to worry about being able to quickly adjust the ISO on a camera.

But I certainly didn't suggest that it's the only - sorry, *ONLY* - "viable option for all shooting scenarios". That's a complete fabrication.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Who uses Auto ISO with multiple off-camera flashes?
> 
> But no, you carry on making up your Strawman arguments to "prove" your point.



Thanks for agreeing with me that it would be silly to use Auto ISO with off-camera flash.

I must have missed that (and many other) qualification(s) when you said, "There's no excuse not to use Auto ISO on a camera like this."


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## Keith_Reeder (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Thanks for agreeing with me that it would be silly to use Auto ISO with off-camera flash.
> 
> I must have missed that (and many other) qualification(s) when you said, "There's no excuse not to use Auto ISO on a camera like this."


Do need a hand moving those goalposts, Michael?

You seem to be struggling with context. The post I responded to with the Auto ISO reference was worrying about the lack of an ISO button: in off-camera flash situations there's generally no need for fast, on-the-fly ISO adjustment.

_Is there?_

So off-camera flash - in this context - is essentially an irrelevance.

_Isn't it?_


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## Famateur (Feb 15, 2020)

katysei said:


> The body looks bulkier than eos R, and rumours prcing it around $4000
> I do hope r6 will be more like RP and much cheaper.(sub $2000)



A price of $4,000 for the R5 would betray the R5 moniker that strongly indicates it's intended to be the RF equivalent of the 5D series DSLRs. Those have consistently been in the $3,299-$3,499 range, with the exception of the 5DS, which was a niche specialization that shared the same body but was aimed at a different market segment.

While features are certainly related to price, the floor and ceiling of price ranges are primarily determined by product positioning relative to its intended market. It's possible that Canon is rearranging its market segmentation and product positioning, but highly unlikely with the R5 moniker. I see that as a clear message to 5D shooters that a mirrorless body is in the works for them.

If anything, the global contraction in ILC camera sales, coupled with Canon's statement that it will aggressively win marketshare in the full-frame mirrorless space would point to:

More features at historically consistent prices for a given segment, or 
Lower prices for a modest (generationally appropriate) boost in features, or
A combination of both.
While I think a launch price of $3,499 for this feature-packed R5 seems most likely to me, I would not be surprised one bit if Canon launched the R5 at $3,299.
In a contracting market, raising prices doesn't win you marketshare, and saying, "But it has a whole slew of redical features to support the higher price!" doesn't mean the target market has (or will spend) the money to buy it.


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## PureClassA (Feb 15, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> However, how you interpret this: "...as well as process 8K video into higher-quality 4K video." Again, this are not my words, this is the announcement statement from Canon. And again, this for me at least is the least important thing in the R5. I will/would buy the camera with the 4k60 without the 8k.



It will shoot 8K video "as well as...." So Sounds like it will do real 8K, but also give you the option to shoot in 8K and downconvert to 4K... which sounds like a FF readout of oversampled 4K... which is to say simply a FF readout on 4K. Not sure how else to interpret that. The wording seems somewhat ambiguous. I mean, I can shoot something in 8K, put into FCP or Adobe and "process it into higher quality 4K video". Hard to say where they are going with this. Can the camera shoot an 8K file and then give you the option IN CAMERA to re-render it into 4K? I can't imagine that. The processing power that sort of operation takes is tremendous. 

We barely have ANY true 8K TVs out there, and we have only had a small handful of actual live TV events even shot and broadcast in 4K. The only real worthwhile 4K delivery system thus far is Blu-Ray 4K. The difference between streaming 4K content and watching the same thing on a disc hard copy is often huge. I just re-watched the NUN recently. Started streaming it from my iTunes library which gives me "4K HDR". I switched back and forth to the regular HD Blu-Ray copy I own. The Blu-Ray at 1080p blew away the "4K" stream. All the blacks were completely crushed and that movie has a ton of shadows. But I bet most folks today are watching 4K content via highly compressed streaming services and NOT on discs.

We are very quickly reaching the point of diminishing returns on these formats mainly because without a delivery system that won't compress the hell out of the source material, what good is it? It's not.

Furthermore, almost every movie today that uses post production special effects like CGI get mastered in 2K DCI even though principal photography was done in 4K or even 6K. Why? Because rendering things like Iron Man's suit or Thanos in 4K would take way more animation and processing power. Once they master it with all the effects in 2K, they Up-Convert the footage back into higher resolutions for theatrical distribution. 

So NOW... we're talking 8K. Which is great. It's nice that Canon is pushing the envelope. But we can still only half utilize true 4K in most of the biggest Hollywood films. The Joker is a good recent example of a straight through 4K production. Principal Photography. Mastering. Distribution. All 4K. No compression or down converting to Master. Why? No CGI. And the 4K Blu Ray of that movie looks gorgeous.


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## scyrene (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> How many shots have you missed that you didn't even see while you were chimping instead of watching?



In my experience, there are plenty of lulls in bird photography especially. Frantic bursts of action, followed by more waiting. So 'chimping' rarely causes missed shots, and is a way of passing the time. I delete in camera not so much to save memory card space (unless it's full), but rather to save time when I come to upload. I have to sort through them sooner or later, so if I have a spare moment in the field, why not then? If a shot is clearly out of focus etc. then there's no reason to keep it. Finer choices that can't be easily discerned on the small LCD can wait until home.

(Edit: I wrote this before the preceding discussion, I'm not taking sides in people's arguments, just noting my experiences).


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## PureClassA (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Some shooting situations are more conducive to auto ISO than others. Not everyone shoots the same thing you do the same way you do. I rarely use Auto ISO because I don't usually shoot in situations that are best shot using it. With multiple off-camera flashes, for instance, AUTO ISO is worse than useless.


ONLY time I ever use auto ISO is when I've shot dance recitals/competitions. Constant, radically changing lighting situations with LED spots sweeping across a wide stage etc... and I had to keep my shutter speed up and apertures at 2.8. Apart from those special situations where you're trying to stop fast action in changing light... Eh... I dunno why I'd ever need Auto ISO


----------



## scyrene (Feb 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> Not when working! That’s the appropriate distance for watching an HD video.



Ah right


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Do need a hand moving those goalposts, Michael?
> 
> You seem to be struggling with context. The post I responded to with the Auto ISO reference was worrying about the lack of an ISO button: in off-camera flash situations there's generally no need for fast, on-the-fly ISO adjustment.
> 
> ...



You're doing that quite fine yourself.

Someone expressed a desire to have an ISO button on the R5.

Your response was basically, "No one needs an ISO button on this camera. There's no excuse to not use Auto ISO with this camera."

If that's not moving the goalposts I do not know what moving the goalposts is.


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## padam (Feb 15, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> What are we putting the 1.4 and 2x converters on then? Surely not the 100-500(which would make a 1000mm f/14)


As I said before, super telephotos are coming, just not necessarily so soon, when there are so many other lenses they can release that will sell.
Who would spend that much money on these primes, if there is no suitable camera body to mount them on yet?
f/14 AF with the new body might become a possibility anyway, so with the dual IS, it might not be that bad if high shutter speed is not needed.

Looking at Sony, they've released their 1.4x and 2.0x teleconverters with their 70-200/2.8 in 2016
The 400/2.8 only came two years later in 2018 (which came after the A9 released in 2017), 600/4 in 2019 and there is still plenty more to come.


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## Famateur (Feb 15, 2020)

brad-man said:


> I do question them. If they are accurate, then the converters won't be compatible with any lenses other than long telephotos which haven't even had development announcements yet. That strikes me as being silly and unlikely...



I see it kind of the opposite: If the teleconverters (which are real -- those are official photos from Canon) don't fit currently released RF lenses because of the protruding element, I see it as a hint to wildlife and sports photographers that some super-telephoto RF lenses are coming soon. The official announcement for the R5 specifically mentioned sports shooters while touting the frame rate of the R5.

Canon teased the number of lenses that are coming in 2020 but didn't specify which. I think the teleconverters are a clue for at least one, if not two of the imminent lens releases.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> You got _that_ from what I wrote?



Yep.



Keith_Reeder said:


> (Actually, I know you didn't. You made it up so that you had an excuse to pontificate).



You obviously have no idea what you're talking about when you claim to know what I think.
To claim you do is either a complete fabrication or a severe delusion.



Keith_Reeder said:


> I didn't "imply" anything. I stated very clearly - in response someone lamenting the apparent lack of an ISO button on the R5 - that "there's no excuse not to use Auto ISO on a camera like this".



"There's no excuse not to use Auto ISO on a camera like this. "

That certainly implies to me that you are suggesting that anyone who does not use Auto ISO on a camera like this has no excuse.



Keith_Reeder said:


> There's simply no debating the fact that well-executed Auto ISO removes the need to worry about being able to quickly adjust the ISO on a camera.



I'll debate you all day long that there are some situations where being able to manually change ISO is superior to using Auto ISO. Because it's true.




Keith_Reeder said:


> But I certainly didn't suggest that it's the only - sorry, *ONLY* - "viable option for all shooting scenarios". That's a complete fabrication.



That's certainly what it suggested to me.

"There's no excuse not to use Auto ISO on a camera like this."

Without qualification.


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## joestopper (Feb 15, 2020)

Quackator said:


> The entrance pupil diameter is not necessarily equal to the aperture
> stop diameter, because of the magnifying effect of lens elements in
> front of the aperture. "Apparent aperture" is the key.
> 
> ...




These are two different things:
While a *rear* element can be bigger (magnifying) that is not an argument against the fact that the *front* entrance lens element must have at least the diameter of the aperture (and no, the video is no evidence against).

You cannot magnify the front entrance light with a magnifying element in front of the aperture. It would mean that a lens, say with an f-stop of 1.2 would have a t-stop much worse (depending on magnifying) like 2.0 or so.

Got it?


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## scyrene (Feb 15, 2020)

I've used the combination of 'hold down SET + top dial' to change ISO for so long, I literally forgot there was an ISO button on my cameras  Much easier IMHO!


----------



## davo (Feb 15, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I'm in the same boat, really suprised they didn't at least put a dedicated iso button on the camera... at least the control ring on the lens can be set to that function I suppose





diegopisante said:


> I was really wishing the R5 was coming with personal buttons for ISO, drive, flash....that is what I miss a lot coming from 5D series. It's a pain go into M-fn button on an event and find what you need.


On my 5D I never use that iso button, too small and cumbersome to use /find without looking. I use the front main dial for shutter speed....the back control wheel for aperture... And iso is changed with the front main dial while pressing the set button with my thumb. I can change any of it blindly with the camera to my eye


----------



## davo (Feb 15, 2020)

scyrene said:


> I've used the combination of 'hold down SET + top dial' to change ISO for so long, I literally forgot there was an ISO button on my cameras  Much easier IMHO!


Me too... So much faster. I can't remember the last time I ever pressed that tiny iso button other than by accident


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> ONLY time I ever use auto ISO is when I've shot dance recitals/competitions. Constant, radically changing lighting situations with LED spots sweeping across a wide stage etc... and I had to keep my shutter speed up and apertures at 2.8. Apart from those special situations where you're trying to stop fast action in changing light... Eh... I dunno why I'd ever need Auto ISO



In my experience, when stage lighting is changing rapidly it often changes between metering and exposure. I have better luck setting a specific exposure and "sitting" on it (by holding the AF-ON button) with the camera pre-focused until the light comes back to where I've set exposure, especially if the lighting has a cyclical pattern. Another strategy I use is to set exposure for the "best light" (think multi-colored LED lighting going through patterns of different colors - when all three primary colors are lit at the same time you have the most light and the fullest spectrum you're going to get) and then shoot for peak action and play the percentages that some will be underexposed but the ones that are properly exposed will also have the best light to work with. YMMV.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

davo said:


> On my 5D I never use that iso button, too small and cumbersome to use /find without looking. I use the front main dial for shutter speed....the back control wheel for aperture... And iso is changed with the front main dial while pressing the set button with my thumb. I can change any of it blindly with the camera to my eye



I've used that setup at times.


----------



## davo (Feb 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> There's no excuse not to use Auto ISO on a camera like this.


I shoot bands in dark venues. On my 5D 3 I am often dancing between 3 to 10 thousand iso. I try very hard to avoid going so super high as post processing is a bitch. With auto iso the camera would want to go to those super high iso's regularly. I can't give the camera that option.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> In my experience, when stage lighting is changing rapidly it often changes between metering and exposure. I have better luck setting a specific exposure and "sitting" on it (by holding the AF-ON button) with the camera pre-focused until the light comes back to where I've set exposure, especially if the lighting has a cyclical pattern. Another strategy I use is to set exposure for the "best light" (think multi-colored LED lighting going through patterns of different colors - when all three primary colors are lit at the same time you have the most light and the fullest spectrum you're going to get) and then shoot for peak action and play the percentages that some will be underexposed but the ones that are properly exposed will also have the best light to work with. YMMV.


That works great at Live concerts most of the time when you’re shooting relatively stationary subjects. What I’m talking about is a flock of dancers moving and leaping through all those moving lights. You really cant wait for things. If you do, you missed the apex of the jump, the turn, etc... like this one. (And yes, they also have a 30 foot wide 4K LED panel behind the dancers with constant motion graphics. The AF processor on my camera drinks heavily after these shows


----------



## Nelu (Feb 15, 2020)

Max C said:


> Enjoy your EOS R. I’ll enjoy my EOS R6.


You’ll enjoy something that doesn’t exist...Hmmm, when did you have have your last annual checkup with your family doctor?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> That works great at Live concerts most of the time when you’re shooting relatively stationary subjects. What I’m talking about is a flock of dancers moving and leaping through all those moving lights. You really cant wait for things. If you do, you missed the apex of the jump, the turn, etc... like this one. (And yes, they also have a 30 foot wide 4K LED panel behind the dancers with constant motion graphics. The AF processor on my camera drinks heavily after these shows



Catching them at the top of their leap helps  (Yeah, he had just stepped off the riser and wasn't moving that fast yet.) Notice the audience facing strobe is still at the tail of a very high energy discharge. If I had relied on any kind of metering for that one it would have been pretty much solid black.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

joestopper said:


> These are two different things:
> While a *rear* element can be bigger (magnifying) that is not an argument against the fact that the *front* entrance lens element must have at least the diameter of the aperture (and no, the video is no evidence against).
> 
> You cannot magnify the front entrance light with a magnifying element in front of the aperture. It would mean that a lens, say with an f-stop of 1.2 would have a t-stop much worse (depending on magnifying) like 2.0 or so.
> ...



The magnification between the front of a lens and the physical diaphragm is the only reason an 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 is not an 18-55mm f/3.5-11, a 70-300mm f/4-5.6 is not a 70-300mm f/4-17, or a 70-200mm f/2.8 is not a 70-200mm f/2.8-8.

The "effective aperture" is the entrance pupil as viewed by the subject (i.e. from the front of the lens). With narrow angle lenses (telephoto lenses), the front element must be at least as large as the entrance pupil because the light it is focusing is almost collimated. With wider angle lenses, the entrance pupil can actually be larger than the diameter of the front element when viewed from a point on the len's center axis, though that causes severe vignetting and "cat's eye" bokeh for objects in the periphery. To keep the entire entrance pupil visible from the entire field of view is why many wide angle lenses have those bulbous front elements that are much larger than the e.p.

When light is refracted by a converging lens, the field density increases in proportion to the magnification, just as the cross sectional area through which the light passes decreases in proportion to the magnification. With a simple thin lens, there is a point halfway between the lens and the point of focus where all light passing through the lens passes through a single point where the two cones of light meet at their tips. That's why the image projected on the film/sensor is inverted.


----------



## sanj (Feb 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> Not when working! That’s the appropriate distance for watching an HD video.


Personally, my viewing distance is the same as when working or watching.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> He also said in another comment, "Not necessarily. I will delete images during a lull while in the field whatever the fullness of the memory card. "


I'm pretty sure that switching from using "Rate" button to pressing the shutter and switching from using "Delete" button to pressing the shutter takes about the same time on Canon ILCs.



Michael Clark said:


> Or writing them quickly to another card...


And how would you use that "Rate" button if the images you want to rate are on another card?


----------



## sanj (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Typically Canon has released new versions of the 1.4X and 2X extenders at the same time as at least one or two new versions of Big White lenses. We don't know what all of the "eight" new RF lenses this year will be. I wouldn't be surprised if an RF 300mm f/2.8 and an RF 500mm f/4 would be two of them.


Yes PLEASE


----------



## amorse (Feb 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> There will never be an RF 135mm f/1.4L.


To be fair...


----------



## Kit. (Feb 15, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Note how making the rear elements bigger and putting them closer to the
> sensor allows for smaller overall diameters and better balanced systems.
> 
> Yes, that is physics.


That's how you magnify the _exit_ pupil.

In order to magnify the _entrance_ pupil so that it's larger than the front lens diameter, you need to put _the front element closer to the object_. While it might have its use for dedicated macro lenses, it won't work in non-macro settings.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> What are we putting the 1.4 and 2x converters on then? Surely not the 100-500(which would make a 1000mm f/14)



Maybe the RF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS? But I'm guessing something else as well, like an RF 300mm f/2.8 L IS.

The EF 300mm f/2.8 L was introduced in November 1987 only eight months after the introduction of the EOS system. It was one of the earliest EF lenses introduced. No "pro" EOS body was introduced until the EOS-1 in September 1989, almost two years later.


----------



## David_E (Feb 15, 2020)

sanj said:


> Personally, my viewing distance is the same as when working or watching.


I’m quite certain that you’re with the majority there. I treat an iMac playing a video as I would treat a 27-inch TV. At your working distance you _may_ be able to distinguish between 1080p and 4K video. At normal viewing distances you _probably_ _cannot_ distinguish if you are not prejudiced to see the 4K as sharper by knowing in advance which resolution you are looking at.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 15, 2020)

amorse said:


> To be fair...


That would be wonderful to see.


----------



## amorse (Feb 15, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Very insightful about the flow on benifits of achieving 8k... promising!
> 
> I've heard this theory a few times now that the 8k could only be raw due to processor limitations... I'd love to believe that's the case but wouldn't that severly undercut the c500 mark ii ? I have a hunch they may return to MJPEG


I feel like motion jpeg is unlikely just because I wonder if 8k mjpeg would require more data throughput than a card could receive. That's why I also wonder if it will use SD UHS II cards - I don't know what the max write speed is to them right now, but I wonder if 8k is going to outrun it's capacity and need a cfexpress just to handle 8k at all.


----------



## amorse (Feb 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> That would be wonderful to see.


Maybe not likely, but Canon seems to think it's possible at least!


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> I carry manuals for all of my Canon gear on PDFs on my iPad.



I used to carry the paper manuals in my bag! Then they started getting to be thicker than 150-200 pages before they stopped printing them altogether.


----------



## slclick (Feb 15, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> You and me both. Lee 100 for me as well, though I don't use it nearly as much as I should.
> 
> But that lens does everything I ask of it. A perfect travel/hiking companion as well -- light, IS, sealed, front filterable, etc.


I feel the exact same way. Never hesitate to bring it along under any conditions or bag weight thoughts. Pair this up with HiTech Formatt filters and it's very special, especially considering the cost. I have had a couple wide Zeiss lenses before and while the color and contrast was very special, the distortion and other aberrations never made them worth the price of being in Club Zeiss. This one's a keeper.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 15, 2020)

amorse said:


> I feel like motion jpeg is unlikely just because I wonder if 8k mjpeg would require more data throughput than a card could receive. That's why I also wonder if it will use SD UHS II cards - I don't know what the max write speed is to them right now, but I wonder if 8k is going to outrun it's capacity and need a cfexpress just to handle 8k at all.



8K30p RAW requires the same bandwidth as the 1Dx3’s 5.5K60p RAW, which is doable with CFExpress but certainly not any SD card. MJPEG would be quite a bit lighter-weight, bandwidth-wise, and if the body can encode 45MP JPEG stills at 20fps, it might also be able to encode 33MP JPEG movie frames at 30fps. But I wouldn’t be surprised if the R5 8K is going to be RAW-only, CFExpress-only (and additionally will melt the card when recording over 10 minutes at a time).


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

photographer said:


> You only have to take pictures of young girls.



That all depends on whether you want to take pictures of pretty girls on a system of exchanging services or of women who can afford to pay you for a well done portrait.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Yes, and that effect is necessarily used in most zoom lenses, otherwise they would be _very_ dark zoomed in.
> 
> BUT, the apparent aperture can physically not be larger than the frontmost element, because that one uniquely determines how much light gets in. There’s no way around it, you can’t multiply the number of photons after they’re already in (without photomultiplier electronics that is).




It is possible for an entrance pupil to be larger than the front element, but not by very much with telephoto lenses.

Wide aperture lenses that demonstrate "cat's eye" bokeh do so because the entrance pupil is larger than the front element diameter when the aperture is wide open, and thus off axis light is blocked from being able to "see" the entire entrance pupil.


----------



## BillB (Feb 15, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> It´s the Hype.....We waited so much for this one, now we are anxious....At least I am!!  I have payed more attention to Canon release and yes, they do State they will deliver 8k video recording.  This is my dream camera!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At this point, I don't think we have much idea about when we we will have more information on R5 specs or when the camera will be available.


----------



## Rule556 (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The EF 135mm f/2 L isn't just about how sharp it is or isn't. It's also about how good the out of focus areas look. There's still no other 135mm lens on the market that has as smooth OOF areas as the 135L.
> 
> Lenses today are sacrificed at the altar of the Gods of The Flat Test Chart, because that's all most anyone looks at when comparing lenses. The flat field correction needed to get the edges of a chart as sharp as possible while the lens is at best focus for the center of the chart also make the out of focus areas less pleasing.
> 
> ...



To veer off topic a bit, the thing I’m most excited about, as an amateur enthusiast, with the RF system, is the lowering of prices in the used EF market. I can’t justify the RF trinity, but I should be able to build a stable of used EF glass that I wouldn’t otherwise be able to justify. I’ll definitely be looking for one of these on the used market. 

I bought the R, even though I knew it was likely a flawed first try, to be able to take advantage of both lens lines. The fact that the camera is monumentally better than my 6D was just icing on the cake. Won’t be upgrading this body for at least five years, and I’m stoked to use it.


----------



## BillB (Feb 15, 2020)

diegopisante said:


> I was really wishing the R5 was coming with personal buttons for ISO, drive, flash....that is what I miss a lot coming from 5D series. It's a pain go into M-fn button on an event and find what you need.


If it is like the 5DIV you will be able to set the back screen to get to the controls pretty fast


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> To veer off topic a bit, the thing I’m most excited about, as an amateur enthusiast, with the RF system, is the lowering of prices in the used EF market. I can’t justify the RF trinity, but I should be able to build a stable of used EF glass that I wouldn’t otherwise be able to justify. I’ll definitely be looking for one of these on the used market.
> 
> I bought the R, even though I knew it was likely a flawed first try, to be able to take advantage of both lens lines. The fact that the camera is monumentally better than my 6D was just icing on the cake. Won’t be upgrading this body for at least five years, and I’m stoked to use it.



The EF 135mm f/2 L is a harder lens the find on the used market than many others. Not too many who have them are willing to let them go unless they are a "below average" copy.


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 15, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


 Bottom line this camera sets a whole new standard as Canon always does and leaves the rest wondering what hit them. They will eventually catch up but then again Canon in their own time after the doom sayers say Canon is *******, will drop another nuke on the industry. They are still way ahead in compatibility with the R. ALL EF/EFs lenses 100% compatible, NO one else can say this and now ALL your FD, FL R and L39 Canon lenses will easily work with no glass in the adapter. Also many other brands including the Nikon F mount so that will bring all the Nikon F mount users to Canon as well just to access the R5 and other future cameras by Canon.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> There’s no official word as of yet, but the way they protrude into the lens makes them almost certainly mechanically unusable with any lens with a short backfocus distance.



How far in front of the flange is the reamost element on the RF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS at its most rearward movement?


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 15, 2020)

Famateur said:


> A price of $4,000 for the R5 would betray the R5 moniker that strongly indicates it's intended to be the RF equivalent of the 5D series DSLRs. Those have consistently been in the $3,299-$3,499 range, with the exception of the 5DS, which was a niche specialization that shared the same body but was aimed at a different market segment.
> 
> While features are certainly related to price, the floor and ceiling of price ranges are primarily determined by product positioning relative to its intended market. It's possible that Canon is rearranging its market segmentation and product positioning, but highly unlikely with the R5 moniker. I see that as a clear message to 5D shooters that a mirrorless body is in the works for them.
> 
> ...



Totally agree.
Canon can easily bring this R5 in at $3,200 or so and sell the crap out of it with the superior lens line-up they have and with the full EF/EFs compatibility and able to use All FD, FL, R and L39 Canon lenses now as well as all the Nikon F mount lenses this camera will appeal to a huge market at the right price. Like the 5D MII did.


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Feb 15, 2020)

.jan said:


> I wouldn't bet too much money on a comparable 5DV anytime soon. This is the camera they need(ed) to make to persuade 5DIV users to switch to mirrorless so there's no need to offer a mirrored alternative too quickly.


I know what you mean.....but, I suspect there are at least a number of 5D users who like the ergonomics / size of the existing model too much to change to something that looks (at least) to be somewhat smaller, so, I don't know, ... (But then again, I am biased,as I am waiting on the 5Dv to upgrade to  )


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Feb 15, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> *Let's Talk about the SHORTCOMINGS OF THE CANON EOS R5 : *( as compared to 5D4,Panasonic S1H,A7R4,Z7 )
> 
> 
> 1. No dedicated buttons for Mode dial , button for switching between photo & video mode, ( in the 360 render of the R5 camera cannot locate either a dedicated ISO button or AF drive button ). *It has less buttons overall as compared to 5D4.* Thumbs down
> ...


Oh wow, Sorry, but I think you may have found your way onto a Canon site in error - Google should be able to redirect you to one on Sony..
Check back in a month or so though, when we actually know a bit more about the R5.
Good luck.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Feb 15, 2020)

Max C said:


> I feel you. The R5 will be an awesome system, but I don't think the R5 will be for me personally.
> I can't afford $3500 for a body, and then have enough to purchase lenses, memory cards and other peripherals, I just wont have enough money to get up and running.
> 
> I have my fingers crossed for the R6 in the ballpark of $2000. If the R6 comes with IBIS, uncropped 4k, HD120 and dual card slots, I am all in.
> ...


Sounds excellent logic to me. Im fortunate as I have the RF 24-105MM L and love that lens. The 70-200mm sounds great and I tried it but just cant justify the £2700 price tag not being a Pro. Just have to wait and see what develops.


----------



## David_E (Feb 15, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> ..._You see, not everyone just reads the spec list. Each photographer will have some items that they care more about than others. And - perhaps more importantly, having specs does not mean the specs are worth having if they don't function well.
> 
> ...So, no need to weep for me. I purchased an excellent camera._


Bingo! I have little regard for numbers and I do not suffer from camera envy. Frankly, there probably isn’t a camera on the market that I couldn’t easily afford, at least as far up the scale as Phase One. I chose the RP for general nature photography and arthropod macrophotography because I liked the old-fashioned controls and light weight. I, too, purchased an excellent camera _for my purposes_.

As to the R5, my purchase decision will depend on its focus-tracking ability. I need to do more with insects in flight.

_Epargyreus clarus_, silver-spotted skipper. Canon EOS RP, EF100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM


----------



## sanj (Feb 15, 2020)

Jarred is unsure if 8k will be cropped or not. Hi Jarred!


----------



## sanj (Feb 15, 2020)

She also is unsure if 8k will be cropped. Hmmm. How can the math that was told to me earlier be wrong??


----------



## sanj (Feb 15, 2020)

For me. 4k uncropped at 24/30 fps is enough. If RAW, DPAF is there SUPERB!!!


----------



## joestopper (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The magnification between the front of a lens and the physical diaphragm is the only reason an 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 is not an 18-55mm f/3.5-11, a 70-300mm f/4-5.6 is not a 70-300mm f/4-17, or a 70-200mm f/2.8 is not a 70-200mm f/2.8-8.
> 
> The "effective aperture" is the entrance pupil as viewed by the subject (i.e. from the front of the lens). With narrow angle lenses (telephoto lenses), the front element must be at least as large as the entrance pupil because the light it is focusing is almost collimated. With wider angle lenses, the entrance pupil can actually be larger than the diameter of the front element when viewed from a point on the len's center axis, though that causes severe vignetting and "cat's eye" bokeh for objects in the periphery. To keep the entire entrance pupil visible from the entire field of view is why many wide angle lenses have those bulbous front elements that are much larger than the e.p.
> 
> When light is refracted by a converging lens, the field density increases in proportion to the magnification, just as the cross sectional area through which the light passes decreases in proportion to the magnification. With a simple thin lens, there is a point halfway between the lens and the point of focus where all light passing through the lens passes through a single point where the two cones of light meet at their tips. That's why the image projected on the film/sensor is inverted.



Mixing up several things:
The discussion started from a *prime* lens and not a zoom. And I stated, the front lens element must be at least the size of the aperture.in a meaningful design. And that is true (and not a contradiction to your statements regarding a zoom).
However, if you do magnify in front of the aperture then the t-stop is quite different from the f-stop value. While that can be the case for a zoom at some focal length, it makes no sense for a prime.
Proof: Check f-stop and t-stop values for various primes and you will see they are very close (and the reason why t-stop value is always a bit worse than f-stop value, is the loss of transmission through glass).


----------



## joestopper (Feb 15, 2020)

sanj said:


> She also is unsure if 8k will be cropped. Hmmm. How can the math that was told to me earlier be wrong??



Ask her this question: How much can an 8k be cropped on a 45mp sensor?
(Hint: it is far less then the claimed 2x that was posted earlier by someone in this forum)


----------



## sanj (Feb 15, 2020)

davo said:


> I shoot bands in dark venues. On my 5D 3 I am often dancing between 3 to 10 thousand iso. I try very hard to avoid going so super high as post processing is a bitch. With auto iso the camera would want to go to those super high iso's regularly. I can't give the camera that option.


Then would your camera not go to slower shutter speed giving you blurred photos? What is worse - blurred photos of high iso noise?


----------



## Kit. (Feb 15, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Ask her this question: How much can an 8k be cropped on a 45mp sensor?
> (Hint: it is far less then the claimed 2x that was posted earlier by someone in this forum)


Technically, it _can_ be cropped 444x and then upscaled.
Knowing Sony trolls, they might as well suggest that it's the case.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Mixing up several things:
> The discussion started from a *prime* lens and not a zoom. And I stated, the front lens element must be at least the size of the aperture.in a meaningful design. And that is true (and not a contradiction to your statements regarding a zoom).
> However, if you do magnify in front of the aperture then the t-stop is quite different from the f-stop value. While that can be the case for a zoom at some focal length, it makes no sense for a prime.
> Proof: Check f-stop and t-stop values for various primes and you will see they are very close (and the reason why t-stop value is always a bit worse than f-stop value, is the loss of transmission through glass).



Every prime I've ever seen magnifies (either negatively for a retrofocus design or positively otherwise) between the physical diaphragm and the front of the lens. Are you saying Zeiss 50mm Planar lenses are not meaningful designs? Their e.p.s are slightly larger than their front elements.




It's pretty easy to illustrate that wider angle lenses can have larger entrance pupils than front elements.


----------



## yeahright (Feb 15, 2020)

davo said:


> I shoot bands in dark venues. On my 5D 3 I am often dancing between 3 to 10 thousand iso. I try very hard to avoid going so super high as post processing is a bitch. With auto iso the camera would want to go to those super high iso's regularly. I can't give the camera that option.


you could always limit the maximum allowable value in Auto ISO


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Feb 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> Hmmm, after reading all that the biggest surprise was you didn't use the term 'Maths' because I always assumed you were British. ...


What have we done to upset you this time??


----------



## slclick (Feb 15, 2020)

StoicalEtcher said:


> What have we done to upset you this time??


What am I, the Larry David of the Forum?


----------



## davo (Feb 15, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Ask her this question: How much can an 8k be cropped on a 45mp sensor?
> (Hint: it is far less then the claimed 2x that was posted earlier by someone in this forum)


I also notice she specifically says IBIS works in conjunction with "RF" lens stabilization for up to 7-8 stops. I wonder if it will do the same for adapted EF stabilized lenses afterall? I have been lead to believe it will.....maybe not though.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

sanj said:


> Then would your camera not go to slower shutter speed giving you blurred photos? What is worse - blurred photos of high iso noise?




One sometimes trades keeper ratio for better keepers. If timed properly (for the subjects strumming guitars and singing) and stabilized properly (for the camera), one can get usable images at much slower Tv than conventional wisdom dictates.

EOS 5D Mark III, ISO 5000, 1/80, f/2.2, EF 135mm f/2 L





EOS 7D Mark II, ISO 1600, 1/320, f/3.2, 100mm (EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II)


----------



## davo (Feb 15, 2020)

sanj said:


> Then would your camera not go to slower shutter speed giving you blurred photos? What is worse - blurred photos of high iso noise?


Blurred photos are no good. Depending on if my subject is static or moving I am always tweaking my shutter speed as well as slow as I think I can get away with so I can avoid those extreme iso's.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

yeahright said:


> you could always limit the maximum allowable value in Auto ISO



It's still a pain in post for each shot to be at different ISOs, and manual exposure usually works better anyway.


----------



## davo (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> One trades keeper ratio for better keepers. If timed properly (for the subjects strumming guitars and singing) and stabilized properly (for the camera), one can get usable images at much slower Tv than conventional wisdom dictates.
> 
> ISO 5000, 1/80, f/2.2, 135mm
> 
> ...


Yea its often a frantic dance. If the venue and players are well lit its no issue, but if not you have to stay on your toes to avoid motion blur. What lens am I using at the moment? What is the lighting like at THIS moment on my subject? How much motion? Can I drop my shutter speed at all? No? Well up the iso then.....Oh the stage brightened!...turn down the iso and raise the shutter. Swap lens to tele? well now I have to raise the shutter more which means raise the iso....well now the stage went darker!....cant raise iso anymore and cant slow the shutter,,,so now I just have to wait for things to improve


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Mixing up several things:
> The discussion started from a *prime* lens and not a zoom. And I stated, the front lens element must be at least the size of the aperture.in a meaningful design. And that is true (and not a contradiction to your statements regarding a zoom).
> However, if you do magnify in front of the aperture then the t-stop is quite different from the f-stop value. While that can be the case for a zoom at some focal length, it makes no sense for a prime.
> Proof: Check f-stop and t-stop values for various primes and you will see they are very close (and the reason why t-stop value is always a bit worse than f-stop value, is the loss of transmission through glass).



Where, exactly, are the T-stops going up in proportion to the magnification as these constant aperture zoom lenses increase magnification between the aperture diaphragm and the front of the lens?


----------



## davo (Feb 15, 2020)

yeahright said:


> you could always limit the maximum allowable value in Auto ISO


I would BUT I STILL only want the iso the go up to the highest limitation as seldom as possible. Post processing at the higher iso is not ideal at all. You can get usable images but nothing like when 2-3 stops lower


----------



## BillB (Feb 15, 2020)

davo said:


> I also notice she specifically says IBIS works in conjunction with "RF" lens stabilization for up to 7-8 stops. I wonder if it will do the same for adapted EF stabilized lenses afterall? I have been lead to believe it will.....maybe not though.


Well, if we don't know after 1100 CR posts to this thread whether Canon IBIS will interact with EF lenses, the chances are she doesn't either. There are still a lot of missing pieces to this puzzle. Even if the EF lenses do not support IBIS, there will still be 5 stops of stabilization.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 15, 2020)

davo said:


> Yea its often a frantic dance. If the venue and players are well lit its no issue, but if not you have to stay on your toes to avoid motion blur. What lens am I using at the moment? What is the lighting like at THIS moment on my subject? How much motion? Can I drop my shutter speed at all? No? Well up the iso then.....Oh the stage brightened!...turn down the iso and raise the shutter. Swap lens to tele? well now I have to raise the shutter more which means raise the iso....well now the stage went darker!....cant raise iso anymore and cant slow the shutter,,,so now I just have to wait for things to improve



Getting the color right in post can go a long way to making it look like there was better/more light than there actually was.

EOS 5D Mark III, ISO 5000, 1/200, f/4 (24-105mm f/4 L IS - temporary outdoor stage vibrating with the music)





EOS 7D Mark II, ISO 5000, 1/250, f/2.8, 105mm (EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II)


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 15, 2020)

davo said:


> I also notice she specifically says IBIS works in conjunction with "RF" lens stabilization for up to 7-8 stops. I wonder if it will do the same for adapted EF stabilized lenses afterall? I have been lead to believe it will.....maybe not though.



EF lenses may not gain as much because they’re not designed to coordinate with the body on stabilization, and the EF interface is likely not fast enough to do that in any case. Whereas combining IBIS and lens IS was likely one of the ”killer apps” of the RF mount since the very beginning.


----------



## Rule556 (Feb 15, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The EF 135mm f/2 L is a harder lens the find on the used market than many others. Not too many who have them are willing to let them go unless they are a "below average" copy.



Time is a luxury I have.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 15, 2020)

Will EF image stabilization interact with R series IBIS? Of course it will.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 15, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> ONLY time I ever use auto ISO is when I've shot dance recitals/competitions. Constant, radically changing lighting situations with LED spots sweeping across a wide stage etc... and I had to keep my shutter speed up and apertures at 2.8. Apart from those special situations where you're trying to stop fast action in changing light... Eh... I dunno why I'd ever need Auto ISO



Interesting approach; changing lighting situations and flashing LED spots are exactly the reason I shoot concerts in full manual. When a LED is suddenly on, you don't want the camera to expose (or adjust ISO) for the bright light spot. What I do is exposing for human subjects in manual. Tried auto ISO as well and it produced too random results. I'm getting many more keepers in full manual mode.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 15, 2020)

davo said:


> And iso is changed with the front main dial while pressing the set button with my thumb. I can change any of it blindly with the camera to my eye


Same here; it's actually more convenient than having an ISO button/dial somewhere else. This way you use the thumb to control the exposure dial, index or middle finger to control the aperture, and both fingers for ISO. No need to move your hand anywhere else to change ISO.


----------



## slclick (Feb 15, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> Time is a luxury I have.


I have owned three over the years and copy to copy variance is not really a thing for this lens like an original 24-105L or an original 100-400, ugh those were all over the place.


----------



## dlee13 (Feb 16, 2020)

There’s too many pages to be able to read every single post, but the main thing I’m interested to learn is about the 20fps.

I see many people on other sites trying to claim the R5 won’t be able to do the 20fps with continuous AF/Exposure. I’ve read that the M6 II and 1DX3 are able to do this so I think it’s same to assume the R5 can too?

I hope these questions can be answered at WPPI!


----------



## joestopper (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Where, exactly, are the T-stops going up in proportion to the magnification as these constant aperture zoom lenses increase magnification between the aperture diaphragm and the front of the lens?
> 
> View attachment 188727



I have from the very beginning of the thread argued for a *prime* lens and given reasons why the front lens element should be at least the size of the aperture. Since then I am reading reply arguments for various *zoom* lenses ...


----------



## joestopper (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> It is possible for an entrance pupil to be larger than the front element, but not by very much with telephoto lenses.
> 
> Wide aperture lenses that demonstrate "cat's eye" bokeh do so because the entrance pupil is larger than the front element diameter when the aperture is wide open, and thus off axis light is blocked from being able to "see" the entire entrance pupil.
> 
> View attachment 188716



So, how much bigger (% of diameter) is it?


----------



## slclick (Feb 16, 2020)

dlee13 said:


> There’s too many pages to be able to read every single post, but the main thing I’m interested to learn is about the 20fps.
> 
> I see many people on other sites trying to claim the R5 won’t be able to do the 20fps with continuous AF/Exposure. I’ve read that the M6 II and 1DX3 are able to do this so I think it’s same to assume the R5 can too?
> 
> I hope these questions can be answered at WPPI!



Jumping in at page 58... you missed a few good tidbits and a whole lot of crazy. Yes, Vegas at the end of the month should be able to shine more light on this bad billy.


----------



## Laslen (Feb 16, 2020)

dlee13 said:


> I see many people on other sites trying to claim the R5 won’t be able to do the 20fps with continuous AF/Exposure. I’ve read that the M6 II and 1DX3 are able to do this so I think it’s same to assume the R5 can too?


It is not the same. Neither the M6 Mark II nor the 1DX3 are 45MP. The M6 Mark II is 33MP but it is only capable of 14fps.

It's possible the 20fps continuous is in APS-C mode, but literally everything is speculation now. Nobody knows the answer to any of these questions until Canon confirms it.


----------



## slclick (Feb 16, 2020)

I know I cannot speak for everyone, who knows, maybe no one, but it seems this is a _Stills_ slam dunk with a lot of unknowns about _Video._

I like being on the '*Feeling Pretty Sure About This*' side of things. Can't wait.


----------



## tron (Feb 16, 2020)

More buttons and a back wheel are nice. Still missing a few buttons though! What is with Canon and less buttons on mirrorless?


----------



## joestopper (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Where, exactly, are the T-stops going up in proportion to the magnification as these constant aperture zoom lenses increase magnification between the aperture diaphragm and the front of the lens?
> 
> View attachment 188727



I have never said nor implied this: "... T-stops going up in proportion to the magnification ..."
A zoom with a constant f-stop number: What does that mean for the aperture diameter? (example of 70-200 f/2.8)
- @ 200mm --> aperture diameter of 71mm
- @ 70mm --> aperture diameter of 25mm
So, while the front lens element is always >= aperture diameter, there is no decrease of t-stop value to expect!
Your graph proofs what I was stating.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 16, 2020)

dlee13 said:


> There’s too many pages to be able to read every single post, but the main thing I’m interested to learn is about the 20fps.
> 
> I see many people on other sites trying to claim the R5 won’t be able to do the 20fps with continuous AF/Exposure. I’ve read that the M6 II and 1DX3 are able to do this so I think it’s same to assume the R5 can too?
> 
> I hope these questions can be answered at WPPI!



if it's a July release, i doubt WPPI will be able to tell us much other than just have units under display.

There's CP+ , PhotographyShow, NAB, PhotoKina all lined up before this baby gets released. If this was imminent release, then sure, they would have live models that you could play with that show.


I can't see that happening this far away from release.

yes the hardware is usually finished well before now, but usually the firmware isn't done yet.

If I was looking at a crystal ball. this is what I think we'll see at the shows;

- WPPI - units under display. Maybe touch / hold non functioning units.
- NAB - 8K on display.
- PhotoKina - fully operational models, CFE cards locked up though

on the 20fps .. it's REALLY a lot of data to move.

I wouldn't be surprised to see AF/AE locked for 20 fps. it's not a question of crippling, it's a case of it being 2.25x the data that the 1DX Mark II is processing at 20 fps.

we're talking somewhere in the range of 1.8 Gigapixels / second - just to put this into perspective, and far more than that needed to be processed.

however - conversely - it sounds from the 1DX Mark III whitepaper that DIGIC X has ASICS in it specifically for DPAF AF. Which is a first.

So while it MAY happen, i'm leaning to AF/AE locked on all the extreme performance options in the R5;
- 20 fps
- 8K30p
- 4K120p
That way i'll be pleasantly surprised if they do have DPAF / AF/AE.

Sony, et all fanboys will call this "crippling" i'm sure. however, it's doing things that no other ILC can do at the moment - not sure how you'd call that crippling.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 16, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Will EF image stabilization interact with R series IBIS? Of course it will.



Well, while it is very likely that it will, the question is how *well* it will perform.
The RF mount allows a far higher bandwith of data to exchange between lens and body than the EF mount does. There is a real-time control algorithim that constantly adjusts IBIS (body) and IS (lens). The faster the mutual adjustments, the better the image is stabilized. That is why an EF lens could lack i.e. data transfer might not be high enough to adjust as fast as an RF lens would allow. My guess is that an EF lens therefore wont give you the rumored combined 8 stops of stabilization.


----------



## slclick (Feb 16, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Well, while it is very likely that it will, the question is how *well* it will perform.
> The RF mount allows a far higher bandwith of data to exchange between lens and body than the EF mount does. There is a real-time control algorithim that constantly adjusts IBIS (body) and IS (lens). The faster the mutual adjustments, the better the image is stabilized. That is why an EF lens could lack i.e. data transfer might not be high enough to adjust as fast as an RF lens would allow.


Joe, I enjoyed reading your input and insight, good to have you here.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 16, 2020)

canonnews said:


> if it's a July release, i doubt WPPI will be able to tell us much other than just have units under display.
> 
> There's CP+ , PhotographyShow, NAB, PhotoKina all lined up before this baby gets released. If this was imminent release, then sure, they would have live models that you could play with that show.
> 
> ...


My friend, you must keep up. Terms evolve. The new nomenclature is now "cripple hammer" a la James Caan and Kathy Bates in the movie "Misery".


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 16, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Well, while it is very likely that it will, the question is how *well* it will perform.
> The RF mount allows a far higher bandwith of data to exchange between lens and body than the EF mount does. There is a real-time control algorithim that constantly adjusts IBIS (body) and IS (lens). The faster the mutual adjustments, the better the image is stabilized. That is why an EF lens could lack i.e. data transfer might not be high enough to adjust as fast as an RF lens would allow.


Of course you are right. The problem is some people wondering whether it supports EF image stabilization at all. In my opinion, stabilization will be better than one or the other alone.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 16, 2020)

Please, everyone, visit my gofundme page.


----------



## slclick (Feb 16, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Please, everyone, visit my gofundme page.


Isn't it funny how internet begging, a few years back something to be ashamed of is now commonplace ala online dating?

We are devolving and fast!


----------



## dlee13 (Feb 16, 2020)

canonnews said:


> if it's a July release, i doubt WPPI will be able to tell us much other than just have units under display.
> 
> There's CP+ , PhotographyShow, NAB, PhotoKina all lined up before this baby gets released. If this was imminent release, then sure, they would have live models that you could play with that show.
> 
> ...



I’m very curious how they’ll do this too as the A9 does it at 24mp so if the Canon could potentially do this at40mp it would be something insane.

I agree that both the Nikon and Sony fanboys will try their best to criticize it, but I’m really hoping Canon do something revolutionary with this body (which it seems like they will) and put all of them in their place.

I think the processors will play a huge part in what’s possible too. Doesn’t the1DX3 have one Digic X and another Digic 8? If they use a similar design but had two Digic X instead with one powering the AF only and the other doing the rest maybe it could be feasible?


----------



## slclick (Feb 16, 2020)

dlee13 said:


> I’m very curious how they’ll do this too as the A9 does it at 24mp so if the Canon could potentially do this at40mp it would be something insane.
> 
> I agree that both the Nikon and Sony fanboys will try their best to criticize it, but I’m really hoping Canon do something revolutionary with this body (which it seems like they will) and put all of them in their place.
> 
> I think the processors will play a huge part in what’s possible too. Doesn’t the1DX3 have one Digic X and another Digic 8? If they use a similar design but had two Digic X instead with one powering the AF only and the other doing the rest maybe it could be feasible?


Is Digic X it's own thing or a new line? I've read contrary remarks about it.


----------



## davo (Feb 16, 2020)

Video noob question. When I see a listed spec like say 4k @ 30 fps no crop, I often see wishes that they also have 24 fps. Isn't 24 fps easier to do than 30fps? Why wouldn't the slower fps always be an included option if its something so in demand?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 16, 2020)

davo said:


> Video noob question. When I see a listed spec like say 4k @ 30 fps no crop, I often see wishes that they also have 24 fps. Isn't 24 fps easier to do than 30fps? Why wouldn't the slower fps always be an included option if its something so in demand?



For some reason, Canon didn't include 24p in the RP and 90D (but there was 30p), which caused a lot of stirring and boiling, they fixed it in subsequent firmware updates. That's one of the reasons (but not the only one) for the 'Canon's cripple hammer' term.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 16, 2020)

davo said:


> Video noob question. When I see a listed spec like say 4k @ 30 fps no crop, I often see wishes that they also have 24 fps. Isn't 24 fps easier to do than 30fps? Why wouldn't the slower fps always be an included option if its something so in demand?



"Why wouldn't the slower fps always be an included option if its something so in demand?"

-> because of copyright/royalty issues.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 16, 2020)

slclick said:


> Isn't it funny how internet begging, a few years back something to be ashamed of is now commonplace ala online dating?
> 
> We are devolving and fast!


Think of all the trees being saved. No cardboard signs.  BTW: Gotta love this guy I snapped a photo of in SoCal back in 2008.


----------



## slclick (Feb 16, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> For some reason, Canon didn't include 24p in the RP and 90D (but there was 30p), which caused a lot of stirring and boiling, they fixed it in subsequent firmware updates. That's one of the reasons (but not the only one) for the 'Canon's cripple hammer' term.


I think it started when the 50D to 60D was pretty much a step backwards and folks started looking a bit too hard at the differentiation between lines. It's an idiotic term. If I had a nickel for every person who expected a 1D for a XXD price, I could afford a Leica Monochrom.


----------



## BillB (Feb 16, 2020)

tron said:


> More buttons and a back wheel are nice. Still missing a few buttons though! What is with Canon and less buttons on mirrorless?


Two things may be going on. One is that there is less real estate on the mirrorless for buttons. The other is that Canon's touchscreen controls on the rear LCD offer an alternative to buttons.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 16, 2020)

dlee13 said:


> I’m very curious how they’ll do this too as the A9 does it at 24mp so if the Canon could potentially do this at40mp it would be something insane.
> 
> I agree that both the Nikon and Sony fanboys will try their best to criticize it, but I’m really hoping Canon do something revolutionary with this body (which it seems like they will) and put all of them in their place.
> 
> I think the processors will play a huge part in what’s possible too. Doesn’t the1DX3 have one Digic X and another Digic 8? If they use a similar design but had two Digic X instead with one powering the AF only and the other doing the rest maybe it could be feasible?



DIGIC X does all the "mirrorless" stuff. the DIGIC 8 handles ITR/AF/AE for the OVF/PDAF sensor arrangement. I think that's right. I'm too lazy too look it up this morning.

DIGIC X IMO by what the whitepaper states, was designed for mirrorless.


----------



## canonnews (Feb 16, 2020)

tron said:


> More buttons and a back wheel are nice. Still missing a few buttons though! What is with Canon and less buttons on mirrorless?



where would you put them?




as it was, they got rid of the bar, and added in joystick there. added one more button (rate) to the left side.
Moved AF-ON to be near joystick (sounds reasonable).
added two more buttons above the wheel.

it's going to be pretty cramped as it is.



a fully articulating screen comes at a price - the price is buttons. you simply can't put as many buttons on the camera with a fully articulating screen because you are missing now to the left of the screen, and to the bottom for where buttons could go.

IMO, the power switch is still weird.


----------



## David_E (Feb 16, 2020)

canonnews said:


> _IMO, the power switch is still weird._


In the photo it _appears_ identical to the power switch on my EOS RP. The RP switch feels and operates just fine, even though I’m quite accustomed to the “traditional” switch as found on my 5D IV and my 6D II.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 16, 2020)

We are a spoiled bunch when we can sit around and complain about the tiniest of things.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 16, 2020)

David_E said:


> In the photo it _appears_ identical to the power switch on my EOS RP. The RP switch feels and operates just fine, even though I’m quite accustomed to the “traditional” switch as found on my 5D IV and my 6D II.



I quite like the RP's switch.

On the other hand, while I don't own a 7D anymore, that camera has the worst on/off and mode knobs of any of them. I was always accidentally switching it off and getting into modes I didn't want


----------



## Quackator (Feb 16, 2020)

BillB said:


> One is that there is less real estate on the mirrorless for buttons.



A result of a barrage of marketing, hardwiring the equation 
that mirrorless=small into people's brains.

There is no reason why a DLSM *must* be small.
In my eyes there would be good reason for it to 
be bigger, namely the size of my fingers.

The R5 seems a step in the right direction, but I'd love 
it to be the size and layout of the 5D MkIV.


----------



## vishaltpt (Feb 16, 2020)

canonnews said:


> where would you put them?
> 
> View attachment 188736
> 
> ...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*The Canon engineers ( *we don't know they must have had their reasons but....)* could have shifted the ON/OFF button to just below the MODE dial* as is now on the 5D4, which is more convenient to switch between modes at a turn of a button. Won’t you agree; *that way more Real Estate would have been made available on the TOP PANEL* *on either side of the EVF for ISO , Drive buttons etc..*




*It seems that the canon engineers have given too much importance to the ON/OFF button when in actuality you use that button only once when you start & just forget about it for the next of the shoot.


If Canon wanted to be REVOLUTIONARY they could have implemented a dedicated AUDIO DIAL (in place of ON/OFF switch) like you see in Camcorders to adjust your AUDIO LEVELS, that would have been a game changer button)*




Don't forget that people buy the 5D4 for video as much as they buy for stills.The world is shifting more towards video, so more the video features like Audio DIAL etc. the better the R5 will sell.




*Also,

The implementation of the ON/OFF & also the MODE button is too bad on the EOS R*. _(the same looks to have been copied for the R5)_ . To change video modes on EOS R you have to press the INFO button & then keep rotating the mode dial & keep looking into the top LCD till your desired MODE pops in…*way too cumbersome & non-intuitive than the 5D4 which has a nice flip switch to move between photo/video.





Also, the INSTANT VIDEO (red record button) on top panel is actually a joke because…* say you are taking a photo in Av mode at 1/2000 sec at f2 & *instantaneously* you want to record video of that…*so who the hell in the world would start recording the video instantaneously at 1/2000 of a sec???* One will go to manual video mode & change shutter speed to 1/50 or 1/60 as the case maybe & then to compensate reduce the Aperture, ISO. *So it’s wrong to call this RED BUTTON as INSTANT Video!! Because it is NOT.


So Small things which set Canon apart are being done away with…*


The button ergonomics is moving more in the direction of SONY which many are not fan of. *PROs would prefer a little bigger body that gives more battery Juice than a couple of millimeter smaller body. Looks like Canon wanted to deliver a smaller body (aka SONY) & so they compromised on functionality.*



Less buttons / ports is not always a good thing like in the MACBOOK PROs when they started reducing the number of the USB ports etc. then one needed to buy Dongles which was more hassle than convenience… even the lack of dedicated 3.5mm audio jack on modern phones is such a pain. Generally More buttons/ports is always better on the PRO body.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Feb 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> A result of a barrage of marketing, hardwiring the equation
> that mirrorless=small into people's brains.
> 
> There is no reason why a DLSM *must* be small.
> ...



Adding a battery grip should help with the size... I agree that a 5d MkIV is just about right... just glad it's not as tiny as the Sony offerings


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 16, 2020)

RicoB said:


> Yeah ok, I was reaching there.. LOL. But Sigma makes a 1.8 version for Sony at around $1,400 so a Canon non-L RF f/1.8 in this focal length may be good enough IF sharp wide open and the pricing around $1,700.


F1.8, perhaps. $3000-ish... not a 135/1.4 that's easily $4,500 in Canon land.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 16, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> Actually they COULD make affordable f/1.4 135mm by using High Refractive Index Acrylic lenses with a sputtered and/or thin film vapour deposition sapphire coating on the front and rear parts of the element --- In fact, a company like SIGMA could EASILY ADAPT their ENTIRE Art Series:
> 
> 14 mm f/1.4
> 16 mm f/1.4
> ...


Good thinking, Harry..
Acrylic has excellent resistance to weathering. UV light does very little damage to Acrylic over time and so Acrylic is often a good choice for outdoor applications. So, your lens likely will last for at least few years in outdoor use before it will develop a lemon yellow tint to it  dispose of your lens at the time..

Why stop at Sapphire coating though? Be generous and go Diamond coating instead!


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 16, 2020)

Famateur said:


> A price of $4,000 for the R5 would betray the R5 moniker that strongly indicates it's intended to be the RF equivalent of the 5D series DSLRs. Those have consistently been in the $3,299-$3,499 range, with the exception of the 5DS, which was a niche specialization that shared the same body but was aimed at a different market segment.
> 
> While features are certainly related to price, the floor and ceiling of price ranges are primarily determined by product positioning relative to its intended market. It's possible that Canon is rearranging its market segmentation and product positioning, but highly unlikely with the R5 moniker. I see that as a clear message to 5D shooters that a mirrorless body is in the works for them.
> 
> ...


why sell at $3,299.00 when this puppy will be flying of the shelves at $3,750.00. this is an industry leading product.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Feb 16, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> why sell at $3,299.00 when this puppy will be flying of the shelves at $3,750.00. this is an industry leading product.


No one likes to pay more than they have to, but I agree


----------



## Quackator (Feb 16, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Adding a battery grip should help with the size... I agree that a 5d MkIV is just about right... just glad it's not as tiny as the Sony offerings



The battery grip doesn't give you more real estate on the body itself.
A lot of my work is done with the camera in one hand, and a boomstick 
with a flash paddle in the other. For a number of high or low perspectives, 
I need room for the thumb to wander and still hold the camera firmly 
without accidentally pressing a button. The 5D4 was exemplary for a
perfect ergonomic solution in this regard.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 16, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> No one likes to pay more than they have to, but I agree


why sell at $3,2999 is a very different question to why not buy at $3,299 if I would have bought at $3,750 anyway?


----------



## Joules (Feb 16, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is Digic X it's own thing or a new line? I've read contrary remarks about it.


What do you mean by this? What would be the difference?



canonnews said:


> DIGIC X does all the "mirrorless" stuff. the DIGIC 8 handles ITR/AF/AE for the OVF/PDAF sensor arrangement. I think that's right. I'm too lazy too look it up this morning.


Here's the quote from the white paper that you are probably referring to, listing the new features of the Digic X:

"Dedicated sections (“blocks”) of the processor for specific Dual Pixel CMOS AF tasks, and for subject detection (including the new Head Detection AF, and AF trackingc apabilities for both viewfinder and Live View shooting)."


----------



## vjlex (Feb 16, 2020)

Two separate thoughts on 20 FPS:

could the caveat be that that number is only for continuous shooting in one of the compressed file formats such as JPEG or HEIF?
when comparing R5's maximum FPS to the 1DX3, is it being overlooked that the real feat is that the 1DX3 has a virtually unlimited buffer? couldn't the R5 also be capable of 20 FPS RAW, but just have a much more limited buffer, and simply have to take a longer break between shutter presses while writing to disk?


----------



## Quackator (Feb 16, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> why sell at $3,299.00 when this puppy will be flying of the shelves at $3,750.00. this is an industry leading product.



Canon will want to undercut the A7R4, just to make sure the beast is really dead.

So it all depends on how deep the price of the A7R4 falls until 
Canon determines the final price of the R5.

Which is sardonic, to some extent.

Sony will want to pull as many people over before losing them to 
the R5, so they will be aggressive on pricing in the near future.

Just yesterday I came past a billboard claiming up to 750 Euro 
rebates on select Sony cameras. This is a killing field now.
Canon makes Sony cut in their own flesh - and then beats them 
with their price anyway.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 16, 2020)

shunsai said:


> couldn't the R5 also be capable of 20 FPS RAW, but just have a much
> more limited buffer, and simply have to take a longer break between
> shutter presses while writing to disk?



Then it wouldn't be able to write away 8k video.


----------



## Del Paso (Feb 16, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> My friend, you must keep up. Terms evolve. The new nomenclature is now "cripple hammer" a la James Caan and Kathy Bates in the movie "Misery".


Do you mean that Canon is no longer *******, but crippled?
This would open a new perspective !
PS: t'was a good movie...


----------



## Del Paso (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The EF 135mm f/2 L is a harder lens the find on the used market than many others. Not too many who have them are willing to let them go unless they are a "below average" copy.


MPB sell them quite often, and at "acceptable" prices.
But, as you wrote, the risk is getting a poor copy, no risk with serious dealers offering an exchange guaranty.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Canon will want to undercut the A7R4, just to make sure the beast is really dead.
> 
> So it all depends on how deep the price of the A7R4 falls until
> Canon determines the final price of the R5.
> ...


Sorry, This is not how Canon operate. To make a long story short and to avoid a deep dive into price to market conversation :

Canon R5 at $3,750 is a better value than A7R_whatever at $, 3,200. There is no reason for Canon to set RRP for R5 as aggressive as you suggest. 
$750 discount that Sony is offering is an act of desperation. As simple as that. 

Now, remind me of of another mirrorless system that offers an amazing 28-70/2.0 zoom on IBIS stabilised 45Mb body that shoots 12 FPS with mechanical shutter, with apparently great video features, pro level handling, resilient and weatherproof, backed up by world class service and support globally. 
I am sorry, at this stage I see no reason for Canon even consider discounting. 
I Envisage a very long preorder queues leading well into Christmas time with some R glass becoming a short supply.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 16, 2020)

On the long line, I sure hope you're wrong because I'd need mine before September. 

Jack


----------



## Del Paso (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> People who buy lenses because they need "one of each focal length" (as opposed to those who buy a lens for a specific photographic need and understand how to match a lens to a use case instead of getting what every reviewer say is "the best" at that focal length/aperture) base their buying decision on flat test chart performance, even if shooting flat test charts or doing other 2D document reproduction is not what they think they want to do with the lens some day. Designing a lens to be best at rendering flat test charts from edge to edge and corner to corner comes at the expense of the smooth out of focus areas that give the EF 135mm f/2 L its "magic."
> 
> In an age of the Gods of the Flat Test Chart such a 135mm lens would be dismissed as "hopelessly soft" and "outdated" compared to the current crop of fast 135mm lenses that render OOF backgrounds like garbage - but do very well at reproducing flat test charts.


And that's why I never base my buying decision on Lens Rentals full aperture tests.
They simply don't do a lens justice. (coma, color rendition, bokeh, etc...)
What really matters, is how a lens performs in a situation it was designed for, and that's never flat-brick-wall -photography (exception :TSE lenses).


----------



## Quackator (Feb 16, 2020)

Agressive pricing is not discounting.
Canon wants to win back the samplers, who still use 
their EF glass via MC-11 or metabones on a Sony.

The lower the price when the R5 finally hits market,
the more Sony bodies will be orphaned.
This is a massive blow, and Canon is well aware of that.

Already the R was very close to 5D4 specs, but came in 
well below the 5D4 launch price. Winning market share 
back is much more important than margin on this body.

The R5 is the proverbial oil lamp, that Rockefeller gave 
away for free. It is a vehicle for lens sales.

So yes, there are reasons for aggressive pricing.
Very good reasons.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 16, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> On the long line, I sure hope you're wrong because I'd need mine before September.



Canon is already producing the camera full throttle. 
Maybe they are still working on the firmware, but the
hardware is certainly finalized and in production.
Expect samples to be hands on for Photokina in May,
and shipping start in June, July the latest.

Canon always strives to quench as much intial demand as 
possible because of initial adopter cream skimming pricing.

So if you have preordered now (I sure have), you should 
have it by July the latest.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 16, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> On the long line, I sure hope you're wrong because I'd need mine before September.
> 
> Jack


Oh, I rarely say “trust me”, but in this case. Get in the queue as early as possible. Talk to a Canon reseller of your choice tomorrow. 
Consider that camera will be likely offered in bundle with 24-105, in bundle with 24-70/2.8 and body only. 
Canon will prioritise kits. Naturally. This will lead to body only being in short supply initially and for some time.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 16, 2020)

One thing for sure we'll know in due course and of course I'd cheer for lower but not while I was holding my breath.

I'd be body only and it does make sense to get in line since it costs nothing. I own a filter adapter ring so I am fully intending to buy the right R, probably R5. I was impressed with the ND filter for use with the 11-24.

Jack


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Agressive pricing is not discounting.
> Canon wants to win back the samplers, who still use
> their EF glass via MC-11 or metabones on a Sony.
> 
> ...


Enterprise sales is not your day job obviously. 
But let’s agree to disagree as I see no point to argue here. Let revisit when pricing was released 
I suggest pricing to be around $3750 in North American markets.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 16, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> One thing for sure we'll know in due course and of course I'd cheer for lower but not while I was holding my breath.
> 
> I'd be body only and it does make sense to get in line since it costs nothing. I own a filter adapter ring so I am fully intending to buy the right R, probably R5. I was impressed with the ND filter for use with the 11-24.
> 
> Jack


++++ I was impressed with the ND filter for use with the 11-24.

That feature alone coupled with 45Mb sensor is quite appealing to photographers who value 11-24 on a High MP body. 
I dare to say that Canon created a most universal camera known to date:

High MP, 12 FPS, fast AF and accurate AF, a host of unique video features, IBIS which is big for video, ergonomics, colour magic, unique glass, CPS, ruggedness, and so on and so forth. 
There is no question that pros would be tempted with all this goodness. Now OVF apart... what else may be a concern?


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 16, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> ++++ I was impressed with the ND filter for use with the 11-24.
> 
> That feature alone coupled with 45Mb sensor is quite appealing to photographers who value 11-24 on a High MP body.
> I dare to say that Canon created a most universal camera known to date:
> ...



Now, now let's not get too carried away.

Jack


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Feb 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> A result of a barrage of marketing, hardwiring the equation
> that mirrorless=small into people's brains.
> 
> There is no reason why a DLSM *must* be small.
> ...


Agreed! Well said! 
And that is what it would take (in the near-term at least) to get me to switch - I'm more concerned with the form factor than the actual technology (mpx, frame rates, etc) for what I do (personal view, of course).


----------



## LensFungus (Feb 16, 2020)

People shouldn't getting blinded by the low prices compared to the competition of cameras like the Canon EOS RP, EOS R, M50 or M200. They are the gateway drugs. When it comes to professional gear, Canon always makes you pay a lot of money. I don't work for Canon, so I don't know how much the R5 will cost and I don't know about their future pricing strategy but if everything stays the same it will be in the same league as the Canon EOS 5D IV or Sony A7R IV when they were new.


----------



## vjlex (Feb 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Then it wouldn't be able to write away 8k video.


Sorry, I don't really understand the technical side of it, but I don't understand how those two things would be mutually exclusive.


----------



## BillB (Feb 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Agressive pricing is not discounting.
> Canon wants to win back the samplers, who still use
> their EF glass via MC-11 or metabones on a Sony.
> 
> ...


There is also the R6 to think about. If the R6 is a lower price level, Canon may aggressively price the R6 rather than the R5. There are still a lot of pieces missing for this puzzle.


----------



## tron (Feb 16, 2020)

canonnews said:


> where would you put them?
> 
> View attachment 188736
> 
> ...


Where EOS 5DMkIV, 5DMkII, 5DII, 5D,7D,7DII etc have them: On the top! They could make the camera half centimeter thicker (tops) and put the buttons at similar positions. That way they would be the same (more or less) with DSLRs and the switching would be much easier as far as handling is concerned.


----------



## tron (Feb 16, 2020)

BillB said:


> Two things may be going on. One is that there is less real estate on the mirrorless for buttons. The other is that Canon's touchscreen controls on the rear LCD offer an alternative to buttons.


In my EOS R there is no fast way to change fps. Either multifunction button which behaves like a menu so not immediate or using the touch screen after activating the buttons. Not cool! Not fast. YMMV.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 16, 2020)

tron said:


> In my EOS R there is no fast way to change fps. Either multifunction button which behaves like a menu so not immediate or using the touch screen after activating the buttons. Not cool! Not fast. YMMV.


It’s great on the M6II: press the ’dual func’ button inside the top rear wheel, select drive mode with top front wheel. You can customize the options present, I have ISO one rear click left of drive mode and EV comp one click right.


----------



## Fast351 (Feb 16, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> why sell at $3,2999 is a very different question to why not buy at $3,299 if I would have bought at $3,750 anyway?



I think there is a psychological barrier every $500 or so. That's why there is always the "99" at the end of prices because people look at the first numbers only and 3499 looks much cheaper than 3500. 

I think the pricing for people who will buy this camera regardless doesn't matter much. But for people sitting on the fence of whether they really need this camera or will stick with what they have/buy the lesser model, price has a huge impact. I think there are more people in the second category than the first, and if Canons intent with this camera is to capture market share, I think the price will likely be closer to 3299 than 3799. 

But they have marketing people that are far better in tune with the pricing process than any of us here. Sadly all we can do is wait although the conjecture is really fun...


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 16, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> Do you mean that Canon is no longer *******, but crippled?
> This would open a new perspective !
> PS: t'was a good movie...


I contend that Canon id neither crippled or *******, however, some commentators are obviously hammered.


----------



## Quackator (Feb 16, 2020)

shunsai said:


> Sorry, I don't really understand the technical side of it, but I don't understand how those two things would be mutually exclusive.



Writing 8k video (8192 x 4320 px = 35 MP) at 30fps would be 
no fun if video terminated after a second or so, Sony overheat style.

30fps x 35 MP is 1050 MP/sec.

20fps x 45 MP is 900 MP/sec

There is no reason to think that the R5 will be able to handle
1050 MP/sec throughput sustained for some time, but not
900 MP/sec.


----------



## tron (Feb 16, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> It’s great on the M6II: press the ’dual func’ button inside the top rear wheel, select drive mode with top front wheel. You can customize the options present, I have ISO one rear click left of drive mode and EV comp one click right.


M6II seems a great camera. If I had an M system I would definitely upgrade to it.


----------



## tron (Feb 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Writing 8k video (8192 x 4320 px = 35 MP) at 30fps would be
> no fun if video terminated after a second or so, Sony overheat style.
> 
> 30fps x 35 MP is 1050 MP/sec.
> ...


I am NO video expert but maybe the video pixels need less bits than 14 so the total video transfer rate is comparable with the photo one and not higher than that.


----------



## vjlex (Feb 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Writing 8k video (8192 x 4320 px = 35 MP) at 30fps would be
> no fun if video terminated after a second or so, Sony overheat style.
> 
> 30fps x 35 MP is 1050 MP/sec.
> ...



MP (megapixels?) isn't an actual unit of data though, only resolution, no? Whatever video codec they use for the 8K video has nothing to do with the CR3 RAW still format, so how can we speculate what the relative file sizes would be? Am I off?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 16, 2020)

shunsai said:


> MP (megapixels?) isn't an actual unit of data though, only resolution, no? Whatever video codec they use for the 8K video has nothing to do with the CR3 RAW still format, so how can we speculate what the relative file sizes would be? Am I off?



Strictly speaking, resolution is points per distance unit. Megapixels can also be called 'resolution' but it only makes sense when you know the sensor size and aspect ratio.
Pixel count translates into the raw uncompressed data size by simply multiplying the number of pixels by number of bits per pixel.


----------



## xseven (Feb 16, 2020)

Now ... another question ... Will Canon get the IBIS "right" in the first iteration?


----------



## slclick (Feb 16, 2020)

Joules said:


> What do you mean by this? What would be the difference?
> 
> 
> Here's the quote from the white paper that you are probably referring to, listing the new features of the Digic X:
> ...


I believe it was either Craig himself orcanonnews guy who said it's a line (X). Sort of how OSX isn't a particular build but a group of builds. I never got more detail but it's somewhere here. I could search and dig....It's not really a big deal though, I think more time needs to be spent on pixel well talk and cripple nomenclature.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 16, 2020)

tron said:


> I am NO video expert but maybe the video pixels need less bits than 14 so the total video transfer rate is comparable with the photo one and not higher than that.



RAW video will almost certainly be 12-bit, but so will the 20fps stills shooting mode. Even on the 1DX3 20fps e-shutter mode is 12-bit (as confirmed by fine print in the manual), and that's at half the number of megapixels.


----------



## vjlex (Feb 16, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Strictly speaking, resolution is points per distance unit. Megapixels can also be called 'resolution' but it only makes sense when you know the sensor size and aspect ratio.
> Pixel count translates into the raw uncompressed data size by simply multiplying the number of pixels by number of bits per pixel.



Thanks for replying, but your answers are taking me farther and farther away from my original question.

I didn't bring up video in my original question, but I still don't quite get how you arrived at the _data size_ of 20 FPS still images being comparable to 8k30 video (in an as yet unknown format). I don't see how we'd even begin to compare _data_ throughput without certain critical missing variable. But I admit, I'm ignorant about a lot of this.

At any rate, my question was more in response to this post:



canonnews said:


> on the 20fps .. it's REALLY a lot of data to move.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised to see AF/AE locked for 20 fps. it's not a question of crippling, it's a case of it being 2.25x the data that the 1DX Mark II is processing at 20 fps.
> ...



My question was:

when comparing R5's maximum FPS to the 1DX3, is it being overlooked that the real feat is that the 1DX3 has a virtually unlimited buffer? couldn't the R5 also be capable of 20 FPS RAW, but just have a much more limited buffer, and simply have to take a longer break between shutter presses while writing to disk?


----------



## scyrene (Feb 16, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> High MP, 12 FPS, fast AF and accurate AF, a host of unique video features, IBIS which is big for video, ergonomics, colour magic, unique glass, CPS, ruggedness, and so on and so forth.
> There is no question that pros would be tempted with all this goodness. Now OVF apart... *what else may be a concern*?



Ergonomics handheld with supertelephoto lenses (though I haven't used a mark III, maybe it's not as bad as I imagine).


----------



## unfocused (Feb 16, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> ...fast AF and accurate AF, a host of unique video features, IBIS which is big for video, ergonomics, colour magic, unique glass, CPS, ruggedness, and so on and so forth.
> There is no question that pros would be tempted with all this goodness. Now OVF apart... what else may be a concern?



Since we haven't seen the camera in action, there is no guarantee at this point that the autofocus will be fast and accurate. In comparison to DSLRs, the R is not fast and accurate when it comes to shooting action. I hope the R5 is, but it's best to wait and see. (And please, people, don't waste time posting pictures of an action shot that you got with the R. You can get good action shots with the R, but it's simply not up to DSLR standards.)


----------



## Rule556 (Feb 16, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The instant video button uses whatever settings are saved under the C3 custom video mode. Your still settings at the time are ignored.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

joestopper said:


> I have from the very beginning of the thread argued for a *prime* lens and given reasons why the front lens element should be at least the size of the aperture. Since then I am reading reply arguments for various *zoom* lenses ...



This is not a zoom lens. The entrance pupil is larger than the front element.




This is not a zoom lens. The entrance pupil when wide open is larger than the front element.




_*Every prime I've ever seen magnifies (either negatively for a retrofocus design or positively otherwise) between the physical diaphragm and the front of the lens.*_ Are you saying Zeiss 50mm Planar lenses are not meaningful designs? Their e.p.s are slightly larger than their front elements.


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 16, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Since we haven't seen the camera in action, there is no guarantee at this point that the autofocus will be fast and accurate. In comparison to DSLRs, the R is not fast and accurate when it comes to shooting action.



The 90D is obviously not a 5D, but its DPAF tracking speed and accuracy appears to be clearly superior to OVF autofocus. Given that the 1DX3 is now out, we should be soon getting real-world reports about autofocus differences between OVF and Live View shooting in a truly professional camera. I wouldn't be _entirely_ surprised if 1DX3's Live View AF equals–or surpasses–even its new, improved discrete PDAF system, disregarding for a moment the poorer ergonomics of non-viewfinder shooting.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

dlee13 said:


> I’m very curious how they’ll do this too as the A9 does it at 24mp so if the Canon could potentially do this at40mp it would be something insane.
> 
> I agree that both the Nikon and Sony fanboys will try their best to criticize it, but I’m really hoping Canon do something revolutionary with this body (which it seems like they will) and put all of them in their place.
> 
> I think the processors will play a huge part in what’s possible too. Doesn’t the1DX3 have one Digic X and another Digic 8? If they use a similar design but had two Digic X instead with one powering the AF only and the other doing the rest maybe it could be feasible?



Canon has said the DiG!C X is more than a single processing chip, it's a flexible system of multiple components, so it's not quite the same as the previous generations. Probably one reason they skipped DiG!C 9 and reverted back to Roman numerals, which they haven't used since DiG!C III.


----------



## Gloads (Feb 16, 2020)

xseven said:


> Now ... another question ... Will Canon get the IBIS "right" in the first iteration?


This is my main concern. This is their first ILC with IBIS. Having been burned (badly) by the 1D3 focus issues, there is only so much you can fix with firmware. Not having IBIS work right would be a bummer for me, but it is not as bad as having focusing issues.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

joestopper said:


> I have never said nor implied this: "... T-stops going up in proportion to the magnification ..."
> A zoom with a constant f-stop number: What does that mean for the aperture diameter? (example of 70-200 f/2.8)
> - @ 200mm --> aperture diameter of 71mm
> - @ 70mm --> aperture diameter of 25mm
> ...



"However, if you do magnify in front of the aperture then the t-stop is quite different from the f-stop value. While that can be the case for a zoom at some focal length, it makes no sense for a prime."

*These three popular primes aren't any different than the zooms cited earlier. They're all about 1/3 to 1/2 stop slower T-stop than f-number.*


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

slclick said:


> I have owned three over the years and copy to copy variance is not really a thing for this lens like an original 24-105L or an original 100-400, ugh those were all over the place.



Primes will almost always show less variation out of the factory than zooms. Anyone who reads Uncle Roger's blog knows that. 

But primes can be dropped and knocked out of proper alignment, too. Anyone who reads Uncle Roger's blog knows that, too.


----------



## jam05 (Feb 16, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> I know it's just a development announcement but was hoping there would be a bit more details... this is far less than the rumors! But still great to have confirmation


The rumors being fed by Canon testers. Confirmed by the official announcement.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 16, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> RAW video will almost certainly be 12-bit, but so will the 20fps stills shooting mode. Even on the 1DX3 20fps e-shutter mode is 12-bit (as confirmed by fine print in the manual), and that's at half the number of megapixels.


I read the manual yesterday and couldn’t find it, which section is it in? It took me 3 readings to locate it in the M50 manual, Canon is pretty good at hiding it


----------



## Memdroid (Feb 16, 2020)

I have watched some videos of the "influental" youtubers about their EOS R5 thoughts and I really got annoyed about their actual knowledge of tech. Especially about what 8K really means and their concern regarding its "crop".


----------



## Gloads (Feb 16, 2020)

What is needed for an R1 EVF?

Having done action photography since I was a child, I am very curious what is needed to make an EVF work for it (broadcast cameras do it)? I have used an EVF on video cameras and Powershots years ago, but not for action. I got hands on my first MILC yesterday (the R) and was pleased with the resolution and general quality of the EVF, until moving the camera with my eye up to it. It was horrific, and I don't think I could shoot playing puppies, let alone BIF or motorsports. I think we may have to evolve to use the LCD only, or some other solution like tethered Google glasses. Thoughts?


----------



## Proscribo (Feb 16, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> I read the manual yesterday and couldn’t find it, which section is it in? It took me 3 readings to locate it in the M50 manual, Canon is pretty good at hiding it


Page 945, or search for "12 bit".


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

canonnews said:


> if it's a July release, i doubt WPPI will be able to tell us much other than just have units under display.
> 
> There's CP+ , PhotographyShow, NAB, PhotoKina all lined up before this baby gets released. If this was imminent release, then sure, they would have live models that you could play with that show.
> 
> ...



I wonder how many of theses shows will also be impacted by the coronavirus event, since the camera industry is centered on the Pacific rim?


----------



## Quackator (Feb 16, 2020)

shunsai said:


> My question was:
> when comparing R5's maximum FPS to the 1DX3, is it being overlooked that the real feat is that the 1DX3 has a virtually unlimited buffer? couldn't the R5 also be capable of 20 FPS RAW, but just have a much more limited buffer, and simply have to take a longer break between shutter presses while writing to disk?



8k 30fps is continuous, because that is the nature of video.
Compression aside, that transfers more pixels to disk than 
45 MP @20fps do.

Compression is done in DSPs that are specifically designed 
for this - likely no bottleneck.

Provided that the R5 employs double CFexpress cards as well,
it will very likely have unlimited buffer just the same.


----------



## Proscribo (Feb 16, 2020)

Gloads said:


> What is needed for an R1 EVF?
> 
> Having done action photography since I was a child, I am very curious what is needed to make an EVF work for it (broadcast cameras do it)? I have used an EVF on video cameras and Powershots years ago, but not for action. I got hands on my first MILC yesterday (the R) and was pleased with the resolution and general quality of the EVF, until moving the camera with my eye up to it. It was horrific, and I don't think I could shoot playing puppies, let alone BIF or motorsports. I think we may have to evolve to use the LCD only, or some other solution like tethered Google glasses. Thoughts?


At least 120fps progressive with 5,7M dots.


----------



## davo (Feb 16, 2020)

OK for a good laugh, check out this "Official" Canon R5 release video press conference.





Canon Press Conference! R5 announcement


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

Gloads said:


> What is needed for an R1 EVF?
> 
> Having done action photography since I was a child, I am very curious what is needed to make an EVF work for it (broadcast cameras do it)? I have used an EVF on video cameras and Powershots years ago, but not for action. I got hands on my first MILC yesterday (the R) and was pleased with the resolution and general quality of the EVF, until moving the camera with my eye up to it. It was horrific, and I don't think I could shoot playing puppies, let alone BIF or motorsports. I think we may have to evolve to use the LCD only, or some other solution like tethered Google glasses. Thoughts?



Broadcast cameras have lag also, though not to the same extent as some MILCs do, but there's no need to precisely time "peak action" in one frame. So the camera operator can just look at the world through the monitor and it works well enough for video.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> For some reason, Canon didn't include 24p in the RP and 90D (but there was 30p), which caused a lot of stirring and boiling, they fixed it in subsequent firmware updates. That's one of the reasons (but not the only one) for the 'Canon's cripple hammer' term.


 Generally, specs at this stage are the "maximum" capability of the hardware, not all available modes. An f/2.8 lens is also capable of other apertures up to f/22 or f/32, but the marketing is going to concentrate on the ability to do f/2.8, not f/5.6 too.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> MPB sell them quite often, and at "acceptable" prices.
> But, as you wrote, the risk is getting a poor copy, no risk with serious dealers offering an exchange guaranty.



I think MBP gives a 15 day return guarantee. I've seen the same Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 Sports listed three or four times in the past few months with 1-2 week gaps in between when the lens is listed as "out of stock." If it is not the same copy of the lens, they're all rated the same condition.

Wow, they have nine currently for sale. That's a big change from a few years ago when Iwas looking for one. 

I guess the Sigma 135 ART, with its 2D flat test chart performance, made everyone want to dump their 135 L! I still think the 135 L has better out of focus backgrounds than the Sigma.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> And that's why I never base my buying decision on Lens Rentals full aperture tests.
> They simply don't do a lens justice. (coma, color rendition, bokeh, etc...)
> What really matters, is how a lens performs in a situation it was designed for, and that's never flat-brick-wall -photography (exception :TSE lenses).



TS-E as well as Macro and 2D document reproduction systems, which tend to use highly corrected LF lenses and digital scan backs these days.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

tron said:


> In my EOS R there is no fast way to change fps. Either multifunction button which behaves like a menu so not immediate or using the touch screen after activating the buttons. Not cool! Not fast. YMMV.



Where is the fast way to change fps on a 5D Mark IV/III? Or are you talking about changing Drive Mode from 'Single' to 'Continuous'?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

tron said:


> M6II seems a great camera. If I had an M system I would definitely upgrade to it.



If you could control off camera flashes and have an eye level viewfinder at the same time I'g get one.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 16, 2020)

Proscribo said:


> Page 945, or search for "12 bit".



I see it now, thanks! So both raw video and e-shutter are 12 bit. I shot in 12 bit mode on my M50 for months, where I kept thinking "This is supposed to have more DR than my RP, but there's almost no highlight recovery". After setting the drive mode to a slower FPS to get 14 bit RAWs again I finally noticed a positive difference between M50 and RP files.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> "However, if you do magnify in front of the aperture then the t-stop is quite different from the f-stop value. While that can be the case for a zoom at some focal length, it makes no sense for a prime."
> 
> *These three popular primes aren't any different than the zooms cited earlier. They're all about 1/3 to 1/2 stop slower T-stop than f-number.*
> 
> View attachment 188755



Thanks for sharing. Confirms what I was saying.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

shunsai said:


> Thanks for replying, but your answers are taking me farther and farther away from my original question.
> 
> I didn't bring up video in my original question, but I still don't quite get how you arrived at the _data size_ of 20 FPS still images being comparable to 8k30 video (in an as yet unknown format). I don't see how we'd even begin to compare _data_ throughput without certain critical missing variable. But I admit, I'm ignorant about a lot of this.
> 
> ...



The general assumption is that at 8K30 the camera's processor would not be able to compress anything, so the output would be _uncompressed_ raw. With video, buffer size is more or less irrelevant - the camera must be able to write to the card at least as fast as the data rate of the video.

But beyond that, max frame rates are measured before the buffer fills. The 5D Mark IV can do 7 fps, but only for about 21 to 30 raw images (depending on card speed), then it slows to anywhere from about 4.4 fps with a fast UDMA 7 CF card to 1.6fps with a fast UHS-I SD card.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Thanks for sharing. Confirms what I was saying.



You said:

"However, if you do magnify in front of the aperture then the t-stop is quite different from the f-stop value. While that can be the case for a zoom at some focal length, it makes no sense for a prime.
Proof: Check f-stop and t-stop values for various primes and you will see they are very close (and the reason why t-stop value is always a bit worse than f-stop value, is the loss of transmission through glass). "


I just showed that there's no difference between zooms and primes in this respect.

Please tell me again how that confirms what you were saying?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

slclick said:


> I believe it was either Craig himself orcanonnews guy who said it's a line (X). Sort of how OSX isn't a particular build but a group of builds. I never got more detail but it's somewhere here. I could search and dig....It's not really a big deal though, I think more time needs to be spent on pixel well talk and cripple nomenclature.



Yeah, I remember seeing the same thing, but I can't remember where either. Getting old stinks!


----------



## joestopper (Feb 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Writing 8k video (8192 x 4320 px = 35 MP) at 30fps would be
> no fun if video terminated after a second or so, Sony overheat style.
> 
> 30fps x 35 MP is 1050 MP/sec.
> ...



Knowing the way Canon operates, it is safe to assume that they have solved the heat issue allowing for sustained 8k recording. Canon did have a heat issue problem: That is the reason we have not seen IBIS earlier, even though they had patents on it years ago.


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## joestopper (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You said:
> 
> "However, if you do magnify in front of the aperture then the t-stop is quite different from the f-stop value. While that can be the case for a zoom at some focal length, it makes no sense for a prime.
> Proof: Check f-stop and t-stop values for various primes and you will see they are very close (and the reason why t-stop value is always a bit worse than f-stop value, is the loss of transmission through glass). "
> ...




And I have shown you for both primes and zooms each an example in regard to front lens element size to aperture diameter and the resulting f-stop, t-stop relationship (and I am not repeating this again).
All these statements were confirmed by the charts you showed.


----------



## Trankilstef (Feb 16, 2020)

vishaltpt said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *Also,
> 
> ...


 
Actually you can just change mode very quickly by pressing the Mode button then tap directly on the screen to choose the mode you want to go in.

The instant video button doesn't act like you implies. It actually record straight video with the settings you saved on the C3video user preset. So you will probably save settings as Manual exposure - 24p - 1/50 - iso 400 - C-Log for example and everytime yoy press that button even though you're in Av mode with very high shutter speed it will overwrite this and use your C3 video setting.


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## Sean C (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The general assumption is that at 8K30 the camera's processor would not be able to compress anything, so the output would be _uncompressed_ raw. With video, buffer size is more or less irrelevant - the camera must be able to write to the card at least as fast as the data rate of the video.


That is not a safe assumption, though it seems more likely than not. It is complicated.

The camera might do 'computationally easy' compression, and in fact that might be easier than trying to write at full size.
We've seen data rates reduced down from 4-4-4 to something less used make it manageable.
If it can be included, dedicated hardware compresses orders of magnitude more easily than the normal processor. 
The stars could have aligned to get a hardware compression unit into digic that's data rate limited vs frame resolution limited so it could manage 8k at this lower frame rate. If video chip team had a compression unit already taped out with a low enough power/chip die area/heat budget to include with the stills digic this generation. And the marketing team would have needed to allow its inclusion vs withholding it as an upgrade for the next camera, perhaps to drive adoption of the new mount.


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## tron (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Where is the fast way to change fps on a 5D Mark IV/III? Or are you talking about changing Drive Mode from 'Single' to 'Continuous'?


yes! That was what I meant

EDIT: Which reminded me of a question I have about 90D. Is it possible to alter via customization the number of fps just like we can in 7DII? On 7DII I have set high to 8. It is high enough and at the same time saves buffer space for increased continuous use.

I have searched 90D's manual but I could not find this info so probably it does not have this customization.


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## tron (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> If you could control off camera flashes and have an eye level viewfinder at the same time I'g get one.


Yes the eye-level viewfinder would be more comfortable for general use and would allow flash at the same time. That and allowing the use of GP-E2 (or connection to camera connect and use of gps through it just like EOS R and 200D).


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## SecureGSM (Feb 16, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Since we haven't seen the camera in action, there is no guarantee at this point that the autofocus will be fast and accurate. In comparison to DSLRs, the R is not fast and accurate when it comes to shooting action. I hope the R5 is, but it's best to wait and see. (And please, people, don't waste time posting pictures of an action shot that you got with the R. You can get good action shots with the R, but it's simply not up to DSLR standards.)


Yes, R struggled with sensor readout a lot. There seems to be quite a dramatic change in that department with R5. Faster readout = less EVF latency. So there is a hope


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## AlanF (Feb 16, 2020)

tron said:


> yes! That was what I meant
> 
> EDIT: Which reminded me of a question I have about 90D. Is it possible to alter via customization the number of fps just like we can in 7DII? On 7DII I have set high to 8. It is high enough and at the same time saves buffer space for increased continuous use.
> 
> I have searched 90D's manual but I could not find this info so probably it does not have this customization.


I have just hunted through the camera menus and couldn't find customization of fps other than high or low speed.


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## tron (Feb 16, 2020)

AlanF said:


> I have just hunted through the camera menus and couldn't find customization of fps other than high or low speed.


Thanks for the info. I was afraid so. Lowering down to 8fps would help with the buffer.


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## SecureGSM (Feb 16, 2020)

tron said:


> Thanks for the info. I was afraid so. Lowering down to 8fps would help with the buffer.


From memory, on 5DIV, shooting in a “silent mode” would result in camera slowing down a bit.


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## AlanF (Feb 16, 2020)

tron said:


> Thanks for the info. I was afraid so. Lowering down to 8fps would help with the buffer.


It's not a disaster filling the buffer on the 90D because it doesn't shut down the camera as it clears and it does continue shooting in fits and starts as the buffer clears, unlike the 5DSR for example. You get 2-3 secs of burst of RAW at 10 fps, then a fraction of a second pause, then another couple of shots and so on. I haven't been limited by the burst so far the way I shoot.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

joestopper said:


> And I have shown you for both primes and zooms each an example in regard to front lens element size to aperture diameter and the resulting f-stop, t-stop relationship (and I am not repeating this again).
> All these statements were confirmed by the charts you showed.



You've shown me nothing to prove your assertion that the front of a lens diameter will always be equal to or greater than the size of the entrance pupil.
Just because _some_ or even _many_ lenses have front elements that are equal to or larger than the entrance pupil does not mean that they _all_ must be.

All you've shown me is that you deny saying what you've previously said. 

You claimed that prime lenses have T-stops closer to the f-number than zoom lenses. I showed that to not be true. There are many prime lenses with T-stops about one-third to one-half stop slower than their f-number, just as there are many zoom lenses with T-stop values about one-third to one-half stops slower than their f-number, just as I showed that there are both primes and zooms with T-stop values very close to their nominal f-number.

You claimed that no prime lenses do magnification between the physical aperture diaphragm and the front of the lens. I showed you that the only way that is possible is if there is no glass or only a flat plate between the aperture diaphragm and the front of the lens. If there is any refractive surface with an index other than 1.00 in front of the aperture diaphragm, then there is either positive or negative magnification occuring.

You claimed that as the magnification between the aperture diaphragm and the front of the lens increases, the difference between the f-number and T-stop must increase. I showed that there are many zoom lenses which maintain the same T-stop throughout their zoom range.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

tron said:


> yes! That was what I meant
> 
> EDIT: Which reminded me of a question I have about 90D. Is it possible to alter via customization the number of fps just like we can in 7DII? On 7DII I have set high to 8. It is high enough and at the same time saves buffer space for increased continuous use.
> 
> I have searched 90D's manual but I could not find this info so probably it does not have this customization.



The 90D does not have user selectable frame rates for High speed and low speed continuous shooting. Neither do the 5-Series cameras. Other than the 1-Series the 7D Mark II is the only other model I know of that has this.

The 90D also does not allow the user to select maximum and minimum Tv and Av like the 7D Mark II does.


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## unfocused (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The 90D does not have user selectable frame rates for High speed and low speed continuous shooting. Neither do the 5-Series cameras. Other than the 1-Series the 7D Mark II is the only other model I know of that has this.
> 
> The 90D also does not allow the user to select maximum and minimum Tv and Av like the 7D Mark II does.


More reasons to miss the 7DII.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> From memory, on 5DIV, shooting in a “silent mode” would result in camera slowing down a bit.



All the way down from 7 fps to 3 fps.  

You can also turn on flicker reduction to drop it from 7 to approximately 6.3 fps.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 16, 2020)

unfocused said:


> More reasons to miss the 7DII.



I'm still using one. Will probably buy another before they're all gone.

The 90D is a better general purpose camera than the 7D Mark II. But I've got 5-series cameras for general purpose work.

I use the 7D Mark II to shoot field sports under artificial lighting with telephoto lenses. For that purpose it's still a better camera, in my opinion, than the 90D, though each does have advantages over the other for that role. I choose the 7D Mark II for the longer shutter rating, the better build, and the better AF system.


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## Trankilstef (Feb 16, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I suggest pricing to be around $3750 in North American markets.


I personnally think this will be priced higher, maybe 4499$. I'm pretty sure this will be the MSRP.


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## unfocused (Feb 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I'm still using one. Will probably buy another before they're all gone.
> 
> The 90D is a better general purpose camera than the 7D Mark II. But I've got 5-series cameras for general purpose work.
> 
> I use the 7D Mark II to shoot field sports under artificial lighting with telephoto lenses. For that purpose it's still a better camera, in my opinion, than the 90D, though each does have advantages over the other for that role. I choose the 7D Mark II for the longer shutter rating, the better build, and the better AF system.


Yeah, I have a feeling that the 7DII is going to hold its current value for awhile. Similar to the 1D IV -- which only recently dropped in value on the used market.


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## Gloads (Feb 17, 2020)

I am wondering about resolution as it is being assumed. 

The rumored R II (which came about just before the R5 leaked, and vanished once it did) was supposed to be 33/34MP. As 8k is either 33 or 35MP, could the R5 be that low a resolution? Increasing the sensor height to maintain 3:2 aspect ratio would make it either 39 or 45MP. Maybe someone looked at the video size and assumed that was the sensor size on the R II (which seems to have become the R5). 

We could end up with the following based on similar throughput:

R6 @ 20MP x 20FPS
R5 @ 39MP x 20FPS
RS (R3?) @ 75MP x 13FPS


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## canonnews (Feb 17, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Canon has said the DiG!C X is more than a single processing chip, it's a flexible system of multiple components, so it's not quite the same as the previous generations.
> 
> View attachment 188752
> View attachment 188753


DIGIC has never been just a single processing chip - it's always been an SoC with various elements codeveloped in the past with TI.


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## navastronia (Feb 17, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> All the way down from 7 fps to 3 fps.
> 
> You can also turn on flicker reduction to drop it from 7 to approximately 6.3 fps.



What's the consensus on flicker reduction? It's an option in my RP that I've never taken advantage of. Does it actually work?


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## navastronia (Feb 17, 2020)

Gloads said:


> I am wondering about resolution as it is being assumed.
> 
> The rumored R II (which came about just before the R5 leaked, and vanished once it did) was supposed to be 33/34MP. As 8k is either 33 or 35MP, could the R5 be that low a resolution? Increasing the sensor height to maintain 3:2 aspect ratio would make it either 39 or 45MP. Maybe someone looked at the video size and assumed that was the sensor size on the R II (which seems to have become the R5).
> 
> ...



Sounds about right for the R6 and R5, but the RS, I wouldn't count on that high a frame rate, since the camera isn't intended for fast shooting. 7-10 FPS?


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## privatebydesign (Feb 17, 2020)

navastronia said:


> What's the consensus on flicker reduction? It's an option in my RP that I've never taken advantage of. Does it actually work?


Don't use an RP but I do use in on the 1DX II, it is awesome, don't know how I lived without it, it works!


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## BeenThere (Feb 17, 2020)

Fast351 said:


> I think there is a psychological barrier every $500 or so. That's why there is always the "99" at the end of prices because people look at the first numbers only and 3499 looks much cheaper than 3500.
> 
> I think the pricing for people who will buy this camera regardless doesn't matter much. But for people sitting on the fence of whether they really need this camera or will stick with what they have/buy the lesser model, price has a huge impact. I think there are more people in the second category than the first, and if Canons intent with this camera is to capture market share, I think the price will likely be closer to 3299 than 3799.
> 
> But they have marketing people that are far better in tune with the pricing process than any of us here. Sadly all we can do is wait although the conjecture is really fun...


Start with a high price to grab the pros and gotta haves. Then over two years gradually drop the price to pick up the droolers.


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## unfocused (Feb 17, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Start with a high price to grab the pros and gotta haves. Then over two years gradually drop the price to pick up the droolers.


Actually, I think you've got it backwards. Pros will wait. They already have a workflow that works so no urgency in trying something new. It's the "droolers" that will pay the early adopters premium. But, yes, the price will start high to capitalize on pent up demand. It will drop as the market always wins in the long run.


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## Famateur (Feb 17, 2020)

Trankilstef said:


> I personnally think this will be priced higher, maybe 4499$. I'm pretty sure this will be the MSRP.



Imagine for a moment that there was no R5 announcement (or rumors). If Canon released a 5D Mark V DSLR with equivalent specs to the R5 and launched it at $4,499, what do you think would be the reaction from the market segment that the 5D series is aimed at? Sure, it might have features that could support the price, but then Canon would price that body right out of its intended market. I think you'd see 5D series users up in arms about being forced to either keep their old model or jump up $1,000 to another pricing tier.

Here's an unrelated illustration: NFL used to have three tiers for their Game Pass (or back then NFL Rewind) memberships. I don't remember the prices exactly, but it was something like $49, $79, $99. Each tier offered more features and "value". For me, the lower tier was just right, and I used it for a couple of years. Then one year, they dumped the tiers and have one price: $99. Guess who hasn't had a Game Pass membership since then? There were plenty of features to justify the price, but I could no longer justify it in my family budget, and the other features were things I had no interest in. Sure, they'd be great to have, but I'd rather have the lower priced plan I could afford that had the features that did the job.

I don't believe the R5 was randomly named. I believe it was named to get the attention of the 5D series market. In unrestrained dreamland, this camera could blow away even the 1DX. In realistic land, there will be some limitations that keep it within the pricing bounds of the 5D series. For example:


Limited buffer (say, 30-40 RAW images)
No AF or AF tracking in max high-speed burst
1SD Card and 1 CFExpress instead of 2 CFExpress (or even 2 UHSII SD cards, although I doubt it)
No DPAF in 8K...or 4K 60p
Heavy crops in 4K
Lesser codecs, bit rates, bit depth, etc.
Lesser servo AF speed/accuracy compared to 1DXIII
None of these are intended to "cripple" the camera (but one could look at it that way), but rather to keep it priced for its target market and properly positioned relative to other price points in their product lineup.

I've already commented on this a few times, so I should probably give it a rest...but I figured the NFL comparison might help.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 17, 2020)

joestopper said:


> You seem to be deep into materials.
> I understand that CNC machining is possible as opposed to glass. But, of course, CNC machining is coarse i.e. in mico meter but not in nano meter which still requires polishing. Not sure how it behaves at differing temperatures though i.e. contraction/expansion ...



Some really high end German-made CNC machines get down to 0.0005 of a millimetre or even better on any 3D-XYZ axis so it's getting better by the year!

In terms of polishing you can now automate it to such a degree, that laser-interferometry can now be used to gauge perfect curvature and/or flatness on a lens and repeat that perfect dimensioning over-and-over on EVERY lens in the production line. You need to "dope" the Acrylic or Polycarbonate with other elements in order to reduce "glass creep" and expansion/contraction issues BUT it is now possible to create in 2020 a high quality video and stills photo-centric lenses that are ON PAR with and even outperform fluorite glass elements. They will definitely be half-the-weight! The science of anti-scratch, polarization and anti-reflective surface coatings is what brings up the "plastic" lenses to glass-lens potential.

Again, a company like SIGMA definitely HAS the ability to make Acrylic or Polycarbonate still photo and cinema lenses... they just have to spend some money on the CNC machining technology and coating technology! 

I HIGHLY SUGGEST the Kern Pyramid Nano for long-term precision serial production-level machining: (i.e. +/- 0.3 microns variance!) since it can do 500 mm by 500 mm plates of lens material, so that's about 50 to 100 lens elements in ONE RUN at ultra high precision! It would pay for itself in less than three months! Get TWENTY of these machines and SIGMA (or Canon!) could make SUPER-FAST compound curve Polycarbonate/Acrylic plastic lenses in batch-after-batch, enough to fulfill EVERY sales lead!









Flexible Maschinen für die Serienfertigung | KERN Microtechnik GmbH


KERN steht für flexible Maschinen für die Serienfertigung. Hierfür bieten wir individuelle Lösungen mit höchster Qualitätssicherheit.




www.kern-microtechnik.com





(Scroll down to the KERN Pyramid Nano machine)

ALL of the current Sigma Art-series Prime and Zoom lenses would be HALF the weight and about 5% to 10% FASTER than any of their current glass! I would PERSONALLY have no issue to spending the money on a FAST SIGMA plastic lens if it has a decent anti-scratch coating (i.e. thin film vapour deposited sapphire!) AND was even only 5% faster than the glass Art series primes and zooms! The weight savings alone would make them worthwhile!

--


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## unfocused (Feb 17, 2020)

Famateur said:


> Imagine for a moment that there was no R5 announcement (or rumors). If Canon released a 5D Mark V DSLR with equivalent specs to the R5 and launched it at $4,499, what do you think would be the reaction from the market segment that the 5D series is aimed at? Sure, it might have features that could support the price, but then Canon would price that body right out of its intended market. I think you'd see 5D series users up in arms about being forced to either keep their old model or jump up $1,000 to another pricing tier...



At this point, it's anybody's guess. I tend to agree that it will come in at about the same level as the 5DV. The 5DIV was released at $3499. So maybe Canon introduces the R5 at $3799 to take advantage of pent-up demand. If they feel it is a stronger offering than the 5D, they may release the 5DV at around $3,599. Charging a $200 premium for the mirrorless.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 17, 2020)

StoicalEtcher said:


> What have we done to upset you this time??




Like I said earlier ...

I AM CANADIAN !!!!!

It means we use a MIX of British and American English 

....AND...

it means my Math(s) say that the R5 image sensor will be EITHER 8192 x 5455 pixels (3:2 for stills) or 44,687,360 total pixels (44.68 megapixels) to allow for Hollywood standard 1.89:1 aspect ratio DCI (Digital Cinema Initiative) 8192 by 4320 pixel 8K video capture ....OR.... it will be 7680 x 5120 pixels (3:2 for stills) or 39,321,600 total pixels (39.32 megapixels) to allow the more consumer-oriented UHDTV 16:9 aspect ratio of 7680 by 4320 pixels to be captured for 8K video.

In SOME CASES, Canon may add between 60 to 120 pixels on the horizontal and/or vertical used as calibration photosites which means there MAY actually be a small crop for 8K video capture. And since it will LIKELY be a 36 mm by 24 mm image sensor put in the R5 that means the individual photo sites will be EITHER 4.3 microns or 4.6 microns which means it's dynamic range and low-light capability will be in-between the Canon 5Ds and the Sony A7r3. If it's closer to the Sony A7r3 side then Canon HAS A DEFINITE WINNER in combining dynamic range and low-light capability with high pixel count and high burst frame rate! So long you buy the Canon R-mount f/1.2 50mm and other f/1.2 lenses you have got LOTS of light gathering power and can take ANY type of interior and exterior imagery with great confidence!

I do believe because of the recent cancelation of the CP+ trade show that Canon will make ANOTHER specifications announcement sometime this coming week from Monday Feb 17 to Friday Feb 21 !!! It will likely contain the "real" video and stills recording specifications in greater detail including specific still photo and video frame sizes and recording formats, sustained video/stills fps and any 4:2:2, 4:4:4 and FULL RAW colour sampling specifications!

.


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## SecureGSM (Feb 17, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> All the way down from 7 fps to 3 fps.
> 
> You can also turn on flicker reduction to drop it from 7 to approximately 6.3 fps.


That’s it or shift focus priority to 100% on focus while tracking. That would be 2FPS per second )


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## HarryFilm (Feb 17, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is Digic X it's own thing or a new line? I've read contrary remarks about it.



ALL earlier Digics were rebrands/redesigns of the ARM Cortex-A8 and/or ARM Cortex-A12 ARM processors (i.e.32-bit). I actually suspect now they are using a different core set (64-bit ARM Cortex-A55 or A57) with some fancy DSP (Digital Signal Processing) functionality added to the main cores. In my opinion they should have just rebranded Qualcomm Snapdragon 845 and 855 SOC processors for their latest gear so that they can get desktop-level graphics performance with the MUCH-EASIER software programming infrastructure! The DIGIC series is/was so restricted, that it is/was a REAL B&^&* to program all the low-level still photo and video DSP stuff when for little more than an extra $50 to $75 U.S. per camera they could have made their engineering and programming lives SOOOOO much easier by going for the Qualcomm CPUs in all the higher end stills and video cameras.

.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 17, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Good thinking, Harry..
> Acrylic has excellent resistance to weathering. UV light does very little damage to Acrylic over time and so Acrylic is often a good choice for outdoor applications. So, your lens likely will last for at least few years in outdoor use before it will develop a lemon yellow tint to it  dispose of your lens at the time..
> 
> Why stop at Sapphire coating though? Be generous and go Diamond coating instead!



I know you're being SOMEWHAT sarcastic .... BUT .... Al2O3 (Alumina aka Sapphire) is REALLY CHEAP these days !!!

Up here in Canada, I can buy Alumina powder by the 15 Tonne truckload for dirt cheap from ALCAN and turn it into a nice sputtered/vapourous clear ceramic lens coating with but the addition of some cheap chemicals, simple heat and a vacuum chamber! Carbon Allotrope (aka Diamond) is EXTREMELY difficult to make properly without very expensive anvils and high pressures and the Diamond coating vapour deposition process is STILL patented by a company in Florida at a rather expensive royalty rate! So Sapphire it must be! Plus, Sapphire can withstand up to 2000 degrees Celcius which is MUCH better than Diamond's 700 degrees Celcius with nearly the same scratch resistance!

Again, if a company LIKE SIGMA could make PLASTIC R-mount lenses out of Polycarbonate or Acrylic and Sapphire-coat them, they would be f/1.0 prime lenses at HALF-the-weight and 10% to 20% cheaper to make than their CURRENT Sigma Art Series Prime and Zoom lenses.

I would LOOOOOOOOOVE to have the Sigma 150 to 600mm Sports Zoom to be f/4.0-to-f/5.0 OR EVEN FASTER and have it weigh 50% less than the current one! I would buy it the VERY DAY it came on the market! In FACT, with the high refractive index of thin film Sapphire-coated Polycarbonate (i.e. higher than glass!), we could have a 95 to 800mm Sports Zoom at f4.0 to f/5.6 that is LIGHTER and shorter than today's Sigma 150-to-600 mm sports zoom! I would DEFINITELY pay a premium for that lens!!!!! (Hmmm....not too much of a premium Sigma !!! ...but a nice profitable enough premium for Sigma IF they can pull it off!!! --- And I KNOW THEY CAN !!!! )



..



.


----------



## Trankilstef (Feb 17, 2020)

Famateur said:


> Imagine for a moment that there was no R5 announcement (or rumors). If Canon released a 5D Mark V DSLR with equivalent specs to the R5 and launched it at $4,499, what do you think would be the reaction from the market segment that the 5D series is aimed at? Sure, it might have features that could support the price, but then Canon would price that body right out of its intended market. I think you'd see 5D series users up in arms about being forced to either keep their old model or jump up $1,000 to another pricing tier.
> 
> Here's an unrelated illustration: NFL used to have three tiers for their Game Pass (or back then NFL Rewind) memberships. I don't remember the prices exactly, but it was something like $49, $79, $99. Each tier offered more features and "value". For me, the lower tier was just right, and I used it for a couple of years. Then one year, they dumped the tiers and have one price: $99. Guess who hasn't had a Game Pass membership since then? There were plenty of features to justify the price, but I could no longer justify it in my family budget, and the other features were things I had no interest in. Sure, they'd be great to have, but I'd rather have the lower priced plan I could afford that had the features that did the job.
> 
> ...


You're right but Canon will not only price it accordingly to theit own products, but also to the competition. 
And it happens that this camera if there is no obvious cripple on its features, this camera is more bulletproof specs wise than any competitor in the mirrorless and even dslr market. And when you see that the Panasonic S1H is priced at 4000$, what would prevent Canon to put a higher price tag than what we were used to in the 5d line? Add to that the technological tour de force (8k, 4k120p, the innovation in every industry often leads to higher prices), and the fact that Canon is known to put the price of their products a bit higher than the competition, and we can all agree that we should raise our price expectations. 
I keep my bet on 4499$ for the MSRP. Just a tad higher than S1H is reasonable regarding the specs.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 17, 2020)

Famateur said:


> Imagine for a moment that there was no R5 announcement (or rumors). If Canon released a 5D Mark V DSLR with equivalent specs to the R5 and launched it at $4,499, what do you think would be the reaction from the market segment that the 5D series is aimed at? Sure, it might have features that could support the price, but then Canon would price that body right out of its intended market. I think you'd see 5D series users up in arms about being forced to either keep their old model or jump up $1,000 to another pricing tier.
> 
> Here's an unrelated illustration: NFL used to have three tiers for their Game Pass (or back then NFL Rewind) memberships. I don't remember the prices exactly, but it was something like $49, $79, $99. Each tier offered more features and "value". For me, the lower tier was just right, and I used it for a couple of years. Then one year, they dumped the tiers and have one price: $99. Guess who hasn't had a Game Pass membership since then? There were plenty of features to justify the price, but I could no longer justify it in my family budget, and the other features were things I had no interest in. Sure, they'd be great to have, but I'd rather have the lower priced plan I could afford that had the features that did the job.
> 
> ...


I disagree. It was named the R5 specifically to replace the 5D series. And no one would pay $4,499 for a 5D5 if it existed because they know they are buying into an obsolete mount - EF. I predict that once the R5 becomes available, 5D4 prices (new and used) will fall substantially.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Feb 17, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> I know you're being SOMEWHAT sarcastic .... BUT .... Al2O3 (Alumina aka Sapphire) is REALLY CHEAP these days !!!
> 
> Up here in Canada, I can buy Alumina powder by the 15 Tonne truckload for dirt cheap from ALCAN and turn it into a nice sputtered/vapourous clear ceramic lens coating with but the addition of some cheap chemicals, simple heat and a vacuum chamber! Carbon Allotrope (aka Diamond) is EXTREMELY difficult to make properly without very expensive anvils and high pressures and the Diamond coating vapour deposition process is STILL patented by a company in Florida at a rather expensive royalty rate! So Sapphire it must be! Plus, Sapphire can withstand up to 2000 degrees Celcius which is MUCH better than Diamond's 700 degrees Celcius with nearly the same scratch resistance!
> 
> ...



Don't clear plastics turn yellow after a few years of UV exposure?


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 17, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Don't clear plastics turn yellow after a few years of UV exposure?


Yes, but that Is Harry. An idea of a disposable telephoto lens was meant to be appealing to a certain audience.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 17, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Don't clear plastics turn yellow after a few years of UV exposure?



It highly depends upon the coatings and plastic formula dopants used!

Our in-house optical engineer said that indium-based anti-reflective/anti-glare coatings plus hydroxyphenyltriazines UV stabilizers AND/OR Hindered Amine Light Stabilizers (HALS aka 2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidine) will extend the Polycarbonate lifespan by decades. If you introduce UV wavelength barriers in the thin film vapour deposited Sapphire coating itself, yellowing of the Polycarbonate or Acrylic is almost completely avoided (an infused sapphire UV barrier coating AND an in-plastic anti-UV additive will allow 50 year to 100+ year lifespans of plastic lenses!)

--


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 17, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Yes, but that Is Harry. An idea of a disposable telephoto lens was meant to be appealing to a certain audience.



I don't want it to be a disposable lens, I just want it to be a FAST lens!

And modern plastics with 1.54 and 1.77 index of refractions ARE the way to go... giving us LIGHT WEIGHT AND FAST LENSES !!!

It means we CAN have that 95-800 mm Sigma Sports Zoom at f4.0 to f/5.6 that is LIGHTER and shorter than today's Sigma 150-to-600 mm sports zoom!

I'll pay DECENT MONEY for that ability!

--


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 17, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> I don't want it to be a disposable lens, I just want it to be a FAST lens!
> 
> And modern plastics with 1.54 and 1.77 index of refractions ARE the way to go... giving us LIGHT WEIGHT AND FAST LENSES !!!
> 
> ...


Very good. but Acryllic will go yellow in 3-5 years from new due to UV exposure in outdoors resulting in yellowish tint on images taken with your super lens. Harry. this is not a good idea..


----------



## telemaque (Feb 17, 2020)

Kit. said:


> _If_ the sensor bandwidth is barely enough to scan the whole 8k area of the sensor at 30 fps (which seems highly likely, alhough maybe Canon will surprise us), _then_ you need to reduce the amount of pixels scanned at higher fps to stay below the bandwidth limit.



OK understood.
I had not the brandwith in mind, indeed this is also a strong limitation for such a number of pixels.
Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## BillB (Feb 17, 2020)

unfocused said:


> At this point, it's anybody's guess. I tend to agree that it will come in at about the same level as the 5DV. The 5DIV was released at $3499. So maybe Canon introduces the R5 at $3799 to take advantage of pent-up demand. If they feel it is a stronger offering than the 5D, they may release the 5DV at around $3,599. Charging a $200 premium for the mirrorless.


One question to think about is how many people are ready to jump into mirrorless at the 5 level. Also most potential buyers are going to have pretty good cameras already, so another question is how happy they are with what they have now.


----------



## telemaque (Feb 17, 2020)

sanj said:


> Awesome. And you are 100% right about 4k. I would not shoot even a simple thing like a training video on 1080. It has to be 4k!!!



Yes even an amateur like me, who is shooting only for alumni association, astronomy club, a little number of corporate videos for my job, is also only shooting in 4K now. With the exception of interviews where you are at 1.5 meter from the person. That I shoot with my Canon XA30 in 1080, the faces of the people are nicer this way.

18 months ago I bought the Lumix FZ1000 which is roughly a small GH4 with IBIS and no possibility to change lens. The video quality is very impressive. 
I started to compare HD and 4K, at the end I only produce Blue Ray Disks or video in HD files, and I have been very surprised by the difference in quality if you shoot in 4k, mount in 4K and export in HD... I do not really understand why but it is quite clear.

Just to confirm that even amateurs have seen the interest of shooting in 4k. Also the reason I am interested in the R5 that should have 4K with no crop.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 17, 2020)

BillB said:


> One question to think about is how many people are ready to jump into mirrorless at the 5 level.



No problems at all. Most of the people on this forum are level 80 photographers anyway.


----------



## telemaque (Feb 17, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> Technically, you are very correct in that Acrylic has a refractive index of 1.4917 while Soda-lime glass is 1.523 .... BUT .... since Acrylic can be fairly easily CNC MACHINED you can get those fancy symmetric and asymmetric compound convex and concave curves that help with light gathering that helps you get a FASTER lens. The thin film deposition Sapphire coating is for protective anti-scratch purposes only.
> 
> So as a final answer, Polycarbonate is BEST for making the fastest lightweight plastic lenses (i.e. faster than Glass) BUT Acrylic is easier to machine and polish! They just need to get the anti-scratch coatings right!
> 
> ---



Harry,

Your writing is very interesting. Do you have any weblink to share where people who would like to dive into (even more) details could?
Details like which company is working on this? Which lab is working on this? Where are the production sites.
etc.
Thanks a lot.


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 17, 2020)

telemaque said:


> Harry,
> 
> Your writing is very interesting. Do you have any weblink to share where people who would like to dive into (even more) details could?
> Details like which company is working on this? Which lab is working on this? Where are the production sites.
> ...


If there is a practicle edge to be had, you can bet one or more lens manufactures are exploring the possibility. So, time will tell and we look forward to an announcement for a fast and light weight lens.
Edit: Process and material patents should be a tell.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 17, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Very good. but Acryllic will go yellow in 3-5 years from new due to UV exposure in outdoors resulting in yellowish tint on images taken with your super lens. Harry. this is not a good idea..


So all those "UV protection filters" are just marketing BS?

(won't surprise me, though)


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 17, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> No problems at all. Most of the people on this forum are level 80 photographers anyway.



Damn, I should buy the expansion pack then. Still capped at level 60


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 17, 2020)

BillB said:


> One question to think about is how many people are ready to jump into mirrorless at the 5 level. Also most potential buyers are going to have pretty good cameras already, so another question is how happy they are with what they have now.



Many of us have been using our older cameras for some time.
Perhaps I am not the average consumer but I went from 10D to 7D and still use the 7D as the incremental improvements since then are not sufficient to make me want to jump as they will not make me any better. The 10D to 7D was primarily because of DR and Pixels 6.5 to 18.
Now I am looking at the R5 as a real jump that will allow for ability to do things my 7D is lacking and for me the use of my old FD and older lenses and have IBIS. So now moving up has become truly interesting. Those who get a new camera every year or itteration will buy new because they do just to have the latest.
I do see the R5 as a major jump over all Canon DSLRs except the 1D MIII by a huge margin.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 17, 2020)

Kit. said:


> So all those "UV protection filters" are just marketing BS?
> 
> (won't surprise me, though)



I read an article recently where test showed that some UV filters don't actually block UV, but I can't find the link to that. Roger from lensrentals did measure UV filters a while back, have a look at the results.

And on the topic of UV filters: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/05/yet-another-post-about-my-issues-with-uv-filters/


----------



## telemaque (Feb 17, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> It highly depends upon the coatings and plastic formula dopants used!
> 
> Our in-house optical engineer said that indium-based anti-reflective/anti-glare coatings plus hydroxyphenyltriazines UV stabilizers AND/OR Hindered Amine Light Stabilizers (HALS aka 2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidine) will extend the Polycarbonate lifespan by decades. If you introduce UV wavelength barriers in the thin film vapour deposited Sapphire coating itself, yellowing of the Polycarbonate or Acrylic is almost completely avoided (an infused sapphire UV barrier coating AND an in-plastic anti-UV additive will allow 50 year to 100+ year lifespans of plastic lenses!)
> 
> --



If you are like me, chemistry is your major but you might be confused with chemical names and prefer drawing to understand what is the molecule discussed. Here is the picture. Much clearer when you SEE it than when you read the name, right?
Maybe why you like photography?

2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidine


----------



## telemaque (Feb 17, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> It highly depends upon the coatings and plastic formula dopants used!
> 
> Our in-house optical engineer said that indium-based anti-reflective/anti-glare coatings plus hydroxyphenyltriazines UV stabilizers AND/OR Hindered Amine Light Stabilizers (HALS aka 2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidine) will extend the Polycarbonate lifespan by decades. If you introduce UV wavelength barriers in the thin film vapour deposited Sapphire coating itself, yellowing of the Polycarbonate or Acrylic is almost completely avoided (an infused sapphire UV barrier coating AND an in-plastic anti-UV additive will allow 50 year to 100+ year lifespans of plastic lenses!)
> 
> --



If like me, you find the comments of Harry VERY INTERESTING, but want to make sure you have fully captured all details written between the lines, you might want some further explanation on how HALS works in the proctection of the plastic against UV light. Here is a good explanation from BASF, showing the different protections against UV light and at the end how HALS works.





__





Dispersions & Resins







www.dispersions-pigments.basf.com





Again Harry, I really appreciate your detailed comments. It gives me the opportunity to learn further.
A real pleasure, thanks so much!


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 17, 2020)

telemaque said:


> If you are like me, chemistry is your major but you might be confused with chemical names and prefer drawing to understand what is the molecule discussed. Here is the picture. Much clearer when you SEE it than when you read the name, right?
> Maybe why you like photography?
> 
> 2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidine
> ...




Hmmmm ..... can we change that over to hydroxyphenyltriazines for actual UV absorption (C9H7N3O) in Polycarbonate rather than using the above as a general plastic stabilizer and free radical scavenger molecule!

I should note that I am NOT an accredited Chemist but rather know just barely enough to be dangerous!

--


----------



## Kit. (Feb 17, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> I should note that I am NOT an accredited Chemist but rather know just barely enough to be dangerous!


That's obvious by your calling hydroxyphenyltriazine "hydroxyphenyltriazines". You don't need to specially mention it.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 17, 2020)

BillB said:


> One question to think about is how many people are ready to jump into mirrorless at the 5 level. Also most potential buyers are going to have pretty good cameras already, so another question is how happy they are with what they have now.


I do agree that 5D4 is a great stills camera that will last for many years and take great images. It is worth staying with this setup for several more years especially if he or she has a substantial EF lens investment. 

But if a new 5D5 did in fact come out, I would be very hesitant on buying it at a high price given where the market is going.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 17, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> I read an article recently where test showed that some UV filters don't actually block UV, but I can't find the link to that. Roger from lensrentals did measure UV filters a while back, have a look at the results.
> 
> And on the topic of UV filters: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/05/yet-another-post-about-my-issues-with-uv-filters/




Different chemistries are required to block against the ENTIRE 10 nanometre to 400 nanometre Ultraviolet EM bands. It's best to add a stabilizer compound into the polycarbonate or acyrlic lens material itself AND THEN COAT the plastic lens with a thin film clear corundum which is ITSELF THEN coated with an anti-UV and anti-reflective coatings (i.e. Indium Tin Oxide) Those coatings never touch the plastic itself, they only bond with or are diffused into the corundum-based anti-scratch coating.

Organic UV filters:








UV filter - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Inorganic UV filtering using micro-etchings of the corundum coating to waveguide or scatter UV bands INTO the corundum (which tends to fluoresce out to either side of 695 nm) is very possible these days BUT from there you need to used other filters to get that of that 695 nm band of emissions.

Again, I only know enough to be a tiny bit dangerous BUT I do have enough understanding to know that HIGH QUALITY plastic polycarbonate and acrylic lenses ARE possible to create cheaply enough on high-precision CNC machines that a company LIKE Sigma or Canon could make alternative lines of cheaper, lighter and FASTER still photo and video/cinema lenses!

Hopefully, Canon and Sigma ARE reading these posts and will at least TRY to find the right UV/IR stable Polycarbonate and/or Acrylic lens materials and the RIGHT type of easy-to-deposit anti-scratch and UV/IR absorbing and/or scattering corundum coatings to allow for much cheaper and LIGHTER lenses to be manufactured !!!

I'm obviously no optics expert nor a chemistry major, BUT I did point out a few starting points to look at!


--
--


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## navastronia (Feb 17, 2020)

BillB said:


> One question to think about is how many people are ready to jump into mirrorless at the 5 level. Also most potential buyers are going to have pretty good cameras already, so another question is how happy they are with what they have now.



Maybe the way to sell it is accentuate the autofocus capabilities of mirrorless cameras? OOF images are the bane of wedding and event photographers, two demographics that use 5-series cameras.


----------



## JBSF (Feb 17, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Very good. but Acryllic will go yellow in 3-5 years from new due to UV exposure in outdoors resulting in yellowish tint on images taken with your super lens. Harry. this is not a good idea..



Would this apply to a lens element? I live in a high-elevation, high-UV environment where skylights are ubiquitous. After several years (ten or more?) an acrylic skylight might yellow, and after decades it can fracture and even disintegrate. But acrylic in picture frames that do not get direct sunlight does not seem to change at all. I imagine that acrylic has potential for lenses, except perhaps for the front element, since it scratches very easily.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 17, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Don't clear plastics turn yellow after a few years of UV exposure?



Another point indicating suggesting I should reconsider my non-use of sun shades!

But seriously, how many hours of direct sunlight does a lens element receive compared to, say, an automotive headlight?

In the telescope world, we but a scope and intend to keep it for a lifetime, knowing that the coating efficiency will decline in the early years. (And we might even be paying a premium for enhanced coatings that can't be recoated.) If a sideline sports pro sees a virtually undetectable 10% light loss in 10 years of active work, that seems economically minuscule.


----------



## Max TT (Feb 17, 2020)

SInce this announcement time has seemingly come to a stand still for me lol.
Are we there yet?


----------



## dog8food (Feb 17, 2020)

Max C said:


> SInce this announcement time has seemingly come to a stand still for me lol.
> Are we there yet?


No kidding, I might switch brands just to spite Canon for taking so long.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 17, 2020)

davo said:


> Video noob question. When I see a listed spec like say 4k @ 30 fps no crop, I often see wishes that they also have 24 fps. Isn't 24 fps easier to do than 30fps? Why wouldn't the slower fps always be an included option if its something so in demand?


Just because it doesn't say 24fps (at this point) doesn't mean it wont be there. It will be in the R5. Just wait for the full announcement in a couple months.


----------



## JohnC (Feb 17, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Another point indicating suggesting I should reconsider my non-use of sun shades!
> 
> But seriously, how many hours of direct sunlight does a lens element receive compared to, say, an automotive headlight?
> 
> In the telescope world, we but a scope and intend to keep it for a lifetime, knowing that the coating efficiency will decline in the early years. (And we might even be paying a premium for enhanced coatings that can't be recoated.) If a sideline sports pro sees a virtually undetectable 10% light loss in 10 years of active work, that seems economically minuscule.



It depends on the polymer. 

For instance, pure acrylic polymer is UV transparent and therefore doesn't absorb UV radiation. This makes the polymer tremendously weatherable in its natural state. Unfortunately nearly all acrylic pieces you see are NOT pure, but contain various levels and types of impact modifiers as natural acrylic is very brittle. Those modifiers have to be protected with UV absorbing additives and/or free radical scavengers to provide longevity.

Polycarbonate (which is the polymer most often used in headlights) has a lot of inherent impact strength but is NOT UV transparent and doesn't weather nearly as well as acrylic based compounds. Typically you can look for about 7 years life before physical properties begin to degrade, like in bullet proof applications. They are heavily stabilized for exterior applications.

I have no knowledge regarding the composition of lens coatings, so have nothing to offer there.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 17, 2020)

Harry is a character. A little Harry is very entertaining and even very thought provoking. To much Harry can be like heartburn after overeating. Some have had a lot of Harry over many months and have heart burn, while others are just starting the meal. All I can say is enjoy Harry and take him with a grain of salt. Or, ignore him or have a good laugh or ... I don't know.

Regardless, Harry is a Character! Used in moderation, quite harmless. 

Jack


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## Optics Patent (Feb 17, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Very good. but Acryllic will go yellow in 3-5 years from new due to UV exposure in outdoors resulting in yellowish tint on images taken with your super lens. Harry. this is not a good idea..



The long-term usage of eyeglass lenses (not usually made from Acrylic) that often receive far more UV exposure than camera lenses suggests this might not be a big concern. My assumption is that there are less UV sensitive materials (or protective measures) that might cost a little more, but still affordable material cost compared to the other manufacturing costs.

And in the era of in-camera corrections, a white balance adjustment for the slight loss of blue transmitted would be a snap.

But only if you wanted the miracle lens that is twice as fast, half the weight, and half the cost. Which reminds me of why people accept poorer quality voice transmissions from cell phones (and modern land lines) compared to the quality of land lines a generation ago: other benefits outweigh.


----------



## telemaque (Feb 17, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Another point indicating suggesting I should reconsider my non-use of sun shades!
> 
> But seriously, how many hours of direct sunlight does a lens element receive compared to, say, an automotive headlight?
> 
> In the telescope world, we but a scope and intend to keep it for a lifetime, knowing that the coating efficiency will decline in the early years. (And we might even be paying a premium for enhanced coatings that can't be recoated.) If a sideline sports pro sees a virtually undetectable 10% light loss in 10 years of active work, that seems economically minuscule.



Astronomy
I see we have some passions in common. Astronomy is a big one for me also. I see you seem to have a Questar 7', I have the Questar 3.5' field version. a Takahashi Mewlon 210, and triplet apochromat 80mm from Meade.

I would expect the coatings used for Questar telescope, so Maksutov-Cassegrain optical scheme, to be very strong and very durable on the elliptical lens that closes the telescope tube. For this glass part of the telescope coatings should be very strong. On a Takahashi, which is simple modified Cassegrain, so no lens that closes the telescope tube, the coating is only on the mirror and maybe not UV treated.

Ink Jet Paper UV treated
I know a bit the protocol for UV durable products in other industries like Ink Jet Papers used to print photographies. I worked in this field 15 years ago and it was a bit at its beginning. Meanwhile, the protocol is quite strict and a clear approach is testing papers under harsh UV conditions, from these results the paper industry is promising a paper that would keep the picture for 100 years or so.

Obviously, the whole approach only started 15-20 years ago for the Ink Jet Paper and nobody can confirm for sure what happens in 100 years of daylight.
However, the conditions are really harsh and we have all seen the incredible improvement in quality of Ink Jet Papers for producing our pictures taken with Canon cameras. The promise from the industry is a prediction from a calculation based on harsh testing.

The UV technology used inside the coatings of an Ink Jet Paper should not be very different from what you see in other coatings ie glass or polymers or paints coatings. It is a always a multilayer coatings and certain layer are dedicated to capture UV light through a chemical reaction, stop radicals (the products of such a chemical reaction). Chemistries might change from one application to another but methods to stop UV light consequences are similar or the same.
Check the link from BASF, I had put on another post. Also the one Harry had put from Wikipedia.


----------



## BillB (Feb 17, 2020)

Will R5 video capabilities drive a lot of early sales?


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Feb 17, 2020)

*The R5 will make its public debut at The Photography Show(UK) 14 March.*


----------



## joestopper (Feb 17, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> Some really high end German-made CNC machines get down to 0.0005 of a millimetre or even better on any 3D-XYZ axis so it's getting better by the year!
> 
> In terms of polishing you can now automate it to such a degree, that laser-interferometry can now be used to gauge perfect curvature and/or flatness on a lens and repeat that perfect dimensioning over-and-over on EVERY lens in the production line. You need to "dope" the Acrylic or Polycarbonate with other elements in order to reduce "glass creep" and expansion/contraction issues BUT it is now possible to create in 2020 a high quality video and stills photo-centric lenses that are ON PAR with and even outperform fluorite glass elements. They will definitely be half-the-weight! The science of anti-scratch, polarization and anti-reflective surface coatings is what brings up the "plastic" lenses to glass-lens potential.
> 
> ...




Hello, 
and thanks for sharing further details!
While I am not familiar with the technique, I have some general questions/remarks:
You quote a CNC precision of "0.0005 of a millimetre". This is 500 nano meters. I know that highly even surfaces like lensess/mirrors have: Their surface is even to a few atomic layers which amounts to 10 nano meter and below. So, there is still a factor of 50x between this and the 500 nano meter a CNC can do.
My point: Still, a polishing step would be needed. And each of those steps is costly. At the, I am not sure how much the cost advantage would be?
I do understsnd that weight is a big advantage on its own that could justify such lenses.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 17, 2020)

KeithBreazeal said:


> *The R5 will make its public debut at The Photography Show(UK) 14 March.*



Can you provide the source of your info?
And does "public debut" mean its in stores shortly after?
Seems this party is happening earlier than we all thought .... ;-)


----------



## joestopper (Feb 17, 2020)

BillB said:


> One question to think about is how many people are ready to jump into mirrorless at the 5 level. Also most potential buyers are going to have pretty good cameras already, so another question is how happy they are with what they have now.



You ask: "question is how happy they are with what they have now"

I would say that even if someone is 100% happy with what they have, they would still switch if they see innovations they have not not seen before and that would improve their photography in the one or the other way ...


----------



## joestopper (Feb 17, 2020)

dog8food said:


> No kidding, I might switch brands just to spite Canon for taking so long.



Then you harm yourself, not Canon ...


----------



## Fast351 (Feb 17, 2020)

KeithBreazeal said:


> *The R5 will make its public debut at The Photography Show(UK) 14 March.*



Are you guessing at this or do you have real information?


----------



## DarkPhalanx (Feb 17, 2020)

Fast351 said:


> Are you guessing at this or do you have real information?











Canon EOS R5 will make its public debut at The Photography Show in March


Your first chance to see the incoming mirrorless powerhouse




www.techradar.com


----------



## BillB (Feb 17, 2020)

joestopper said:


> You ask: "question is how happy they are with what they have now"
> 
> I would say that even if someone is 100% happy with what they have, they would still switch if they see innovations they have not not seen before and that would improve their photography in the one or the other way ...


Fair enough. To be accurate, I should have said people who are happy with what they have already, even with the availability of an R5 at whatever price Canon is charging for it.


----------



## Max TT (Feb 17, 2020)

KeithBreazeal said:


> *The R5 will make its public debut at The Photography Show(UK) 14 March.*



Yep saw that. Completely my opinion but I am feeling like they will market and make pre sales available for the R5 first, before shedding more light on the R6. Although, both may launch together. But to me it will be sensible to make the more expensive R5 available for pre sale orders first.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 17, 2020)

navastronia said:


> What's the consensus on flicker reduction? It's an option in my RP that I've never taken advantage of. Does it actually work?



It works well if the flicker is at 100 hertz or 120 hertz (or their multiples). It's revolutionized my keeper rate and post processing workflow under typical high school and small college football/baseball/gym lights. Not only is color consistent from shot to shot, so most images can be batch processed, but the shutter release is timed at the peak of the lights, so it can give a 1/2 to 2/3 stop faster Tv for the same ISO and Av. If light from more than one light tower in different phases are both illuminating areas in the frame, then the shutter is usually synced to the brightest source at its peak, but it is less effective in such cases.

Bryan at The-Digital-Picture wrote an article about it a while back when it first came out with the 7D Mark II.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 17, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Yeah, I have a feeling that the 7DII is going to hold its current value for awhile. Similar to the 1D IV -- which only recently dropped in value on the used market.



I'll use the one I've got until the wheels fall off. Ditto with any others I buy. When I'm done with them there won't be much left to sell.


----------



## telemaque (Feb 17, 2020)

BillB said:


> Fair enough. To be accurate, I should have said people who are happy with what they have already, even with the availability of an R5 at whatever price Canon is charging for it.



You ask an excellent question. Especially for an amateur like me.
If I would only shoot stills, I think I would not look at a new body.

I bought the Canon 60D with the idea of using it in still and video. This is an excellent body.
It has some limits in low light and this was a bit of a problem for me as I shoot some conferences for my job and also some low light photos in general.
I love this special feeling given by light just before sunset, called in French "between dogs and wolves".
However, it had been a step change versus my Canon 350D, mostly used for astronomy pictures.

I also love art and normally I am visiting 80% of the key exhibitions in Paris, France.
Indeed, some exhibitions are simply fantastic and gather master pieces I might only see once in my life. So I like to have a picture of it.
What I do is that I take the pictures of the full exhibition when authorized. Again low light is the problem with exhibitions.


When the 6D was at the end of its official sales life, the price was divided by 2 and I bought it.
I really enjoy its capacity in low light.

What remained a frustation on my side is the lack of high resolution quality in video.
The stills with both bodies are fantastic but the video quality not that great at all in comparison with a Lumix GH5 or GH4.

I also have a Canon XA30 which I thought would produce better video quality but it is not really the case.
Canon XA30 is a perfect video camera for interviews, conferences and documentaries where you do not have time. Easy to use, lots of automatic help.
But when you have time, you put a tripod on a seaside for the world championship of windsurf, you are dreaming of fabulous high resolution videos and NO they are just ok. The video quality is not detailled oriented and this is annoying. Contrary to Lumix GH5 (again).

So I bought in 2018 during Black Friday the Lumix FZ1000 where I get this high resolution video camera, but it is a bridge and all my L lenses can not be used... However, video quality is impressive. FZ1000 is kind of a small GH4 with IBIS !

So Canon R5 might be the body I am hopping to find: excellent stills but also excellent videos quality.
Where my Canon lenses could be used...
If the video quality is not there, I will not buy it. I will continue with my current bodies.

Attached: exhibition on the French art during François 1st (16th century) Body 6D




Brand new streets and shops in my district: Body 6D





I hope it clarifies why people like me are interested in such a body.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 17, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> It works well if the flicker is at 100 hertz or 120 hertz (or their multiples). It's revolutionized my keeper rate and post processing workflow under typical high school and small college football/baseball/gym lights. Not only is color consistent from shot to shot, so most images can be batch processed, but the shutter release is timed at the peak of the lights, so it can give a 1/2 to 2/3 stop faster Tv for the same ISO and Av. If light from more than one light tower in different phases are both illuminating areas in the frame, then the shutter is usually synced to the brightest source at its peak, but it is less effective in such cases.
> 
> Bryan at The-Digital-Picture wrote an article about it a while back when it first came out with the 7D Mark II.



Wow, that's awesome! Thanks for replying and for sharing your experience. I'm going to enable it right now


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 17, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> Like I said earlier ...
> 
> I AM CANADIAN !!!!!
> 
> ...



Pretty much every Canon digital imaging sensor for still imaging outputs pixel dimensions divisible by 16 for efficient JPEG encoding. Any edge/masked pixels are in addition to these dimensions. So the sensor will not be 8192x5455. It may be 8208 x 5472 or 8256x5504 or some other similar resolution with both sides divisible by 16.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 17, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> That’s it or shift focus priority to 100% on focus while tracking. That would be 2FPS per second )



That only applies in AI Servo AF. In One Shot AF mode (where priority is always AF and a longer sampling period than AI Servo gets) with High Speed Continuous Drive mode it wouldn't make any difference. It would also be lens dependent. Lenses that focus faster would slow the camera less than those that focus slower.

I've got my cameras set to first frame = AF priority and following frames to "balanced" and still get around the rated fps with fast focusing lenses.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 17, 2020)

Trankilstef said:


> You're right but Canon will not only price it accordingly to theit own products, but also to the competition.
> And it happens that this camera if there is no obvious cripple on its features, this camera is more bulletproof specs wise than any competitor in the mirrorless and even dslr market. And when you see that the Panasonic S1H is priced at 4000$, what would prevent Canon to put a higher price tag than what we were used to in the 5d line? Add to that the technological tour de force (8k, 4k120p, the innovation in every industry often leads to higher prices), and the fact that Canon is known to put the price of their products a bit higher than the competition, and we can all agree that we should raise our price expectations.
> I keep my bet on 4499$ for the MSRP. Just a tad higher than S1H is reasonable regarding the specs.



$4499 is more than a "tad' higher than $4000, it's 12.475% or one-eighth (1/8) higher.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 17, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Wow, that's awesome! Thanks for replying and for sharing your experience. I'm going to enable it right now



Knock yourself out.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 17, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Many of us have been using our older cameras for some time.
> Perhaps I am not the average consumer but I went from 10D to 7D and still use the 7D as the incremental improvements since then are not sufficient to make me want to jump as they will not make me any better. The 10D to 7D was primarily because of DR and Pixels 6.5 to 18.
> Now I am looking at the R5 as a real jump that will allow for ability to do things my 7D is lacking and for me the use of my old FD and older lenses and have IBIS. So now moving up has become truly interesting. Those who get a new camera every year or itteration will buy new because they do just to have the latest.
> I do see the R5 as a major jump over all Canon DSLRs except the 1D MIII by a huge margin.



The 7D Mark II, which has now been on the market for over five years, was what the 7D should have been and fixed a lot of its shortcomings: It has an RGB+IR light meter, flicker reduction, and a true world class AF system derived from the 1D X/5D Mark III. All three of those improvements made the camera much more usable than the 7D for what is it designed to do. But neither the 7D nor the 7D Mark II is a good great generalist camera compared to what else was available around the time it was introduced.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 17, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I do agree that 5D4 is a great stills camera that will last for many years and take great images. It is worth staying with this setup for several more years especially if he or she has a substantial EF lens investment.
> 
> But if a new 5D5 did in fact come out, I would be very hesitant on buying it at a high price given where the market is going.



I guess that would all depend upon whether one makes camera buying decisions based on what one can do with it to produce photographs and motion pictures or how much one might eventually be able to get when selling it.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 18, 2020)

Max C said:


> Yep saw that. Completely my opinion but I am feeling like they will market and make pre sales available for the R5 first, before shedding more light on the R6. Although, both may launch together. But to me it will be sensible to make the more expensive R5 available for pre sale orders first.



OK. Keeps all of us excited ...


----------



## JoeDavid (Feb 18, 2020)

Sorry if someone already posted the UK link. I haven’t seen it here. I think they did a better job than the US division of presenting the limited info...






Canon EOS R5 - Cameras - Canon UK


Revolutionary 8K video performance with unparalleled combined image stabilisation mirrorless camera.




www.canon.co.uk


----------



## canonnews (Feb 18, 2020)

KeithBreazeal said:


> *The R5 will make its public debut at The Photography Show(UK) 14 March.*



I hope the show actually happens. I wouldn't expect much at the public debut, but I'm willing to be surprised and get an R5 into my greedy sweaty hands at the show.


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 18, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The 7D Mark II, which has now been on the market for over five years, was what the 7D should have been and fixed a lot of its shortcomings: It has an RGB+IR light meter, flicker reduction, and a true world class AF system derived from the 1D X/5D Mark III. All three of those improvements made the camera much more usable than the 7D for what is it designed to do. But neither the 7D nor the 7D Mark II is a good great generalist camera compared to what else was available around the time it was introduced.



The things you mentioned had no meaning to me. I do not do flicker light photos, nor video or RGB+IR metering, these mean nothing either as my meter does perfect for what I do. I look for features that I would actually use, not spec bragging rights. Yes many want those spec bragging rights but I would lay money that a lot of people never use them just brag they have them. Tey set the camera to P like the rest of the world and go make great shots through skill, vision and talent.
Those might be nice for some people but meant nothing to me in getting the shot I want in the way I shoot.
Now the IBIS on a Canon product that is huge. All my old lenses now will fit with an adapter and not corrective lens and be stabilized, dream come true. The rest of the R5 is nice but those are earth shattering for me.


----------



## Max TT (Feb 18, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Now the IBIS on a Canon product that is huge. All my old lenses now will fit with an adapter and not corrective lens and be stabilized, dream come true. The rest of the R5 is nice but those are earth shattering for me.



Huge for me as well, since a lot of the affordable EF lenses don’t have stabilization. It’s a nice stop gap, while giving me time to save for RF lenses. Some current R users saying IBIS not a big deal for them, but for me it will be a welcomed feature.


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 18, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Just because it doesn't say 24fps (at this point) doesn't mean it wont be there. It will be in the R5. Just wait for the full announcement in a couple months.



It most likely will get 24p. Look at the freaking out and suicides because the R did not have it. Then Canon added it. I bet they just wanted to get rid of the coronary cases before they did.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 18, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> $4499 is more than a "tad' higher than $4000, it's 12.475% or one-eighth (1/8) higher.



Agreed:
Scoshe: 1-5%
Tad: 5-10%
Bit: 10-15%
Lot: 20%+

Dont recall what 15-20% is.


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 18, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Knowing the way Canon operates, it is safe to assume that they have solved the heat issue allowing for sustained 8k recording. Canon did have a heat issue problem: That is the reason we have not seen IBIS earlier, even though they had patents on it years ago.



Canon wants it right not first.
FD was superior for its day.
EF destroyed all comers for decades.
RF ????


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 18, 2020)

Gloads said:


> This is my main concern. This is their first ILC with IBIS. Having been burned (badly) by the 1D3 focus issues, there is only so much you can fix with firmware. Not having IBIS work right would be a bummer for me, but it is not as bad as having focusing issues.



Then wait like I am for it to be out, bugs fixed if any then purchase a year later.


----------



## joestopper (Feb 18, 2020)

Gloads said:


> This is my main concern. This is their first ILC with IBIS. Having been burned (badly) by the 1D3 focus issues, there is only so much you can fix with firmware. Not having IBIS work right would be a bummer for me, but it is not as bad as having focusing issues.



The reason we see IBIS only now is that Canon wanted to make it perfect and they had for sure prototypes long time running and testing. And many patents. 
I am not worried knowing their philosophy (even though sometimes things went wrong but they have learned from it).


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 18, 2020)

telemaque said:


> Harry,
> 
> Your writing is very interesting. Do you have any weblink to share where people who would like to dive into (even more) details could?
> Details like which company is working on this? Which lab is working on this? Where are the production sites.
> ...



---

Originally, Polycarbonate and Acrylic have been used in Eyeglasses/Sunglasses production. 

Further information about such uses is below:





__





Eyeglass Lens Materials


Master Eye Associates will prescribe the most accurate optical Rx for you with guaranteed Rx accuracy!



www.mastereyeassociates.com










Plastic Lens - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics







www.sciencedirect.com





but for computer and video imaging application LITTLE has been done except in Infrared (thermal) imaging applications for reasons outlines below which are an illustration of the TRADITIONAL PROBLEMS of using polymer lenses in video, still photo and telescope applications:









Acrylic and Polycarbonate Achromatic Lens? - ATM, Optics and DIY Forum - Cloudy Nights


Acrylic and Polycarbonate Achromatic Lens? - posted in ATM, Optics and DIY Forum: Hi, Im a relative newbie to optics (with several failed explorations and some on the back burner) and just pondering the following lens combination:Acrylic - index of refraction (n) = 1.49-1.492...




www.cloudynights.com





Lens Power and Chromatic Aberration:




__





Lens Power and Chromatic Aberration






www.quadibloc.com





HOWEVER, today in 2020 it actually IS POSSIBLE to make a typical still photo and video-centric optical lens for use on consumer and professional grade video and still photo cameras since much research and NEW FIXES for those traditional manufacturing and coating issues is now available from such places as GS Optics, Edmunds Scientific and many others:









Materials for Plastic Optics - GS Plastic Optics


Materials for plastic optics are driven by several factors with only optical performance being one of them. Learn more about this process.




www.gsoptics.com













Designing & Producing Optics From Plastic


Acrylic plastic is one of the best plastics for optical devices because of its transparency, scratch resistance, and non-damaging impact on tissue.



www.creativemechanisms.com













Plastic Optics


Plastic optics, made from polymeric materials, has become quite common for certain applications like in ophthalmology, miniature cameras and optical data storage. The article gives an overview on used materials and their properties.




www.rp-photonics.com





Plastic Lenses REQUIRE anti-scratch coatings:








Anti-Scratch Coating: The Complete Scratch Resistant Solution for Your Plastic Products - Wee Tect


Anti-Scratch Coating:The Complete Scratch Resistant Solution for Your Plastic Products Do you have scratch problem on your plastic product? If yes, then you are in the right place. Why? Because this guide is the ultimate scratch resistant solution: Anti Scratch coating Let’s check how the...




www.weetect.com






Good Technical Book to Read:
*Handbook of Optomechanical Engineering*


If you want to BUY Molded Acrylic Aspheric lenses:








Plastic Molded Aspheric Lenses | Edmund Optics


Plastic molded aspheric lenses are ideal for weight sensitive wearable applications that come at a low cost. View our selection of plastic molded aspheric lenses



www.edmundoptics.com













Molded Acrylic Aspheric Lenses | Edmund Optics


Molded Acrylic Aspheric Lenses used in optics and photonics applications are available at Edmund Optics



www.edmundoptics.com





For Short Wave Infrared Imaging purposes someone has decided PLASTIC LENSES are good enough!








Plastic Diffraction-Limited Wide-Angle Air-Spaced Cooke Triplet Lens Designs for SWIR Imaging Applications: Image Quality Analysis Using Zemax®


In this study, the optical performance of plastic (acrylic-polycarbonate-acrylic, acrylic-polystyrene-acrylic, PMMA-polycarbonate-PMMA, and PMMA-polystyrene-PMMA) diffraction-limited air-spaced Cooke triplet lens designs optimized for the spectral range 0.995 to 1.01 µm are presented. Comparing...




www.igi-global.com





*Antireflection Coatings Make Plastic Lenses “Disappear”*









Antireflection Coatings Make Plastic Lenses “Disappear”


Robust fluoropolymer AR coatings for plastic optics use two types of molecules to achieve an ultralow refractive index.




www.osa-opn.org







Precision CNC Machining Polymer Lenses:




__





Plastic Optical Machining by Controlled Fluidics


Controlled Fluidics offers optical machining services with a range of materials, lowering your costs and providing an excellent product.




www.controlledfluidics.com






The key part is while there is ACTIVE RESEARCH into cinema camera-grade optics, there is NOT YET a viable product being sold in the general marketplace. However, if Canon OR Sigma wish to do so, it is EASILY done by their optics teams who DO HAVE the technical expertise to make FAST lenses made of polycarbonate and/or acrylic happen!


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 18, 2020)

telemaque said:


> Astronomy
> I see we have some passions in common. Astronomy is a big one for me also. I see you seem to have a Questar 7', I have the Questar 3.5' field version. a Takahashi Mewlon 210, and triplet apochromat 80mm from Meade.
> 
> I would expect the coatings used for Questar telescope, so Maksutov-Cassegrain optical scheme, to be very strong and very durable on the elliptical lens that closes the telescope tube. For this glass part of the telescope coatings should be very strong. On a Takahashi, which is simple modified Cassegrain, so no lens that closes the telescope tube, the coating is only on the mirror and maybe not UV treated.
> ...



---

The issue with polymer lenses (i.e. plastic) of any kind is that by ADDING stabilizers, scavenger molecules and others is that those compounds themselves cause loss of transmission at certain optical wavelengths which could be problematic for capturing high quality imagery for cinema, video and still photographers. This loss of transmissibility is ONE reason why current plastic lens production for imaging is mostly directed towards SHORT WAVE INFRARED nightvision tasks. In some cases, the stabilizer compounds will turn a milky white after a few years after exposure to UV even though the compounds have done their job of keeping the polycarbonate and acrylic free from embrittlement.

The KEY ISSUE in the year 2020 is using a coating over a hard thin film corundum as the protective mechanism against UV and IR wavelengths for plastic lenses! By using AL2O3 (alumina aka sapphire), you can make a super hard anti-scratch lens surface AND THEN COAT THAT with anti-glare/Anti-reflective (Indium Tin Oxide) and organic UV and/or IR absorbers and scatterers!

Again, as I have espoused earlier, the lenses made of thin-film Sapphire-coated Polycarbonate (or Acrylic) using compound curve and aspherical lens elements would be BOTH FASTER (i.e. f/1.0) and LIGHTER in weight (2/3rds to half-the weight of a glass prime and/or zoom lens!).

I also absolutely know Canon and Sigma have the TECHNICAL ABILITY but their marketing teams seem to have reticence over such an idea as a 95-800 mm f/4.0-f/5.6 Sports Zoom Lens with sapphire-coated Polycarbonate and/or Acrylic lens elements!

I KNOW I personally have NO PROBLEM putting such a lens on the Visa/Mastercard a few mere seconds after it becomes available for order online!

.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 18, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Pretty much every Canon digital imaging sensor for still imaging outputs pixel dimensions divisible by 16 for efficient JPEG encoding. Any edge/masked pixels are in addition to these dimensions. So the sensor will not be 8192x5455. It may be 8208 x 5472 or 8256x5504 or some other similar resolution with both sides divisible by 16.



===

In this case, I CAN AGREE WITH YOU as the JPEG macro-block size WILL be taken into account. So let us state that it WILL BE AT LEAST 8192 or 7680 pixels on the horizontal for video purposes and may be as much as 8208 or 8256 pixels on the horizontal for still photo purposes which means there likely will be video crop factors involved that are miniscule compared to what they used to be with the 5D mark 4!

.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 18, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Hello,
> and thanks for sharing further details!
> While I am not familiar with the technique, I have some general questions/remarks:
> You quote a CNC precision of "0.0005 of a millimetre". This is 500 nano meters. I know that highly even surfaces like lensess/mirrors have: Their surface is even to a few atomic layers which amounts to 10 nano meter and below. So, there is still a factor of 50x between this and the 500 nano meter a CNC can do.
> ...



YES automated polishing would STILL be needed BUT it is a lot easier to polish polycarbonate or acrylic that fluorite glasses! Since the polymer lenses could be made by teh hundreds using CNC machined blanks of 10 by 10 or 20 by 20 lens elements, it would be FAST to produce many lenses so the time factor alone would make the fine polishing step a non-issue as that too would be faster than glass!

The weight advantage BY FAR is a the greatest selling point ESPECIALLY for Zoom Lenses! It means I could make a 95-800mm f/4.0-f/5.0 Sports Zoom Lens in the same length and size as the current Sigma 150-600mm f5-6.3 zoom lens









Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens for Canon EF


Buy Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens for Canon EF featuring EF-Mount Lens/Full-Frame Format, Aperture Range: f/5 to f/22, Two FLD Elements, Three SLD Elements, Super Multi-Layer Coating, Hyper Sonic Motor AF System, OS Image Stabilization, Fixed, Rotating Tripod Collar, Rounded...




www.bhphotovideo.com





AND it would still be 30% to 50% LIGHTER than the current Sigma Sports Zoom!

i.e. it would weigh only 3.1 pounds (1450 grams) versus 6.3 lb/2860 g

I am pretty sure MANY photographers would pay a small premium to buy such a zoom lens that has more reach, is much FASTER and is much lighter!

Can you say ??? .... Put it on my Visa/Mastercard/Amex RIGHT OW !!!!!

.


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Feb 21, 2020)




----------



## AlanF (Feb 21, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> I know you're being SOMEWHAT sarcastic .... BUT .... Al2O3 (Alumina aka Sapphire) is REALLY CHEAP these days !!!
> 
> Up here in Canada, I can buy Alumina powder by the 15 Tonne truckload for dirt cheap from ALCAN and turn it into a nice sputtered/vapourous clear ceramic lens coating with but the addition of some cheap chemicals, simple heat and a vacuum chamber! Carbon Allotrope (aka Diamond) is EXTREMELY difficult to make properly without very expensive anvils and high pressures and the Diamond coating vapour deposition process is STILL patented by a company in Florida at a rather expensive royalty rate! So Sapphire it must be! Plus, Sapphire can withstand up to 2000 degrees Celcius which is MUCH better than Diamond's 700 degrees Celcius with nearly the same scratch resistance!
> 
> ...


Harry, I follow up things that seem interesting. There is a problem with the high refractive index of thin film sapphire, it is a _disadvantage_ - high refractive index leads to high reflection, about 14%, which makes it unsuitable used raw. It has to be coated with HfO2, which reduces its reflectivity to 1.3%. That still seems high to me for a series of elements in a multi-element lens.


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 22, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Harry, I follow up things that seem interesting. There is a problem with the high refractive index of thin film sapphire, it is a _disadvantage_ - high refractive index leads to high reflection, about 14%, which makes it unsuitable used raw. It has to be coated with HfO2, which reduces its reflectivity to 1.3%. That still seems high to me for a series of elements in a multi-element lens.



We call OUR solution an Add-on Circular or Linear Polarizer filter! 

That reduces reflectivity by quite a nice amount and it can be used as a sacrificial front element protector on such Sapphire-coated polycarbonate lens systems. I'm going to suggest that Hafnium Dioxide is a tad rather expensive compared to Indium Tin Oxide which would used as a sapphire SURFACE COATING instead of being diffused into the thin-film Sapphire like the HfO2 would likely be. 

Since modern optics design software can MEASURE and predict the optical pathways including the corrections of and/or the waveguiding of reflections, you can get PROBABLY get away with using anti-reflective coatings ONLY on the first front and last back plastic lens element and then using a sacrificial polarizer filter on the front of the lens, which many photographers use anyways, to protect those organic anti-reflective coatings!

Again, I am only "lightly educated" when it comes to organic chemistry and metallurgy BUT I think I can say that organic surface coatings ON thin-film Sapphire covered by a removable $50 to $100 polarizer will work wonders! Possible LASER ETCHING a polarizer filter onto the sapphire thin film MAY also help with reflectivity! I'm not an optics designer, so I cannot say if THAT would work BUT it's a start for SIGMA and/or Canon to read up on and then TEST out my suggestions in a proper lab setting!

.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 22, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> We call OUR solution an Add-on Circular or Linear Polarizer filter!
> 
> That reduces reflectivity by quite a nice amount and it can be used as a sacrificial front element protector on such Sapphire-coated polycarbonate lens systems. I'm going to suggest that Hafnium Dioxide is a tad rather expensive compared to Indium Tin Oxide which would used as a sapphire SURFACE COATING instead of being diffused into the thin-film Sapphire like the HfO2 would likely be.
> 
> ...


"We call OUR solution an Add-on Circular or Linear Polarizer filter!" shows you clearly have gone into this in some depth as sapphire is birefringent and will polarise light. Moulded plastic lenses were used decades ago in the cheapest cameras, and some current lenses do have cheap moulded elements. So, Sigma etc must surely have tried using plastics more generally?


----------



## Valvebounce (Feb 22, 2020)

Hi Harry. 
Just asking as my scientific knowledge is limited, but can this (CPL) be done without throwing away 1/2 to 1 stop of light? We all seem to always be fighting higher ISO’s!

Cheers, Graham. 



HarryFilm said:


> We call OUR solution an Add-on Circular or Linear Polarizer filter!


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 23, 2020)

AlanF said:


> "We call OUR solution an Add-on Circular or Linear Polarizer filter!" shows you clearly have gone into this in some depth as sapphire is birefringent and will polarise light. Moulded plastic lenses were used decades ago in the cheapest cameras, and some current lenses do have cheap moulded elements. So, Sigma etc must surely have tried using plastics more generally?



I never said I was a Materials Expert! I actually DID NOT KNOW that Sapphire has TWO DIFFERENT indexes of refraction! (learn something new every day!)

For those who want to know more about birefringence:








Birefringence - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org






My ORIGINAL suggestion was to use thin-film Sapphire over Polycarbonate/Acrylic mostly as an ANTI-SCRATCH material. I should note however, the birefringence issue has to do with the non-cubic structural nature of the sapphire itself and I am not at all sure that a micron-thin coating (1 or 2 microns) is really enough to refract the incoming light rays so much so that the 0.008 difference in indices could not be corrected by other means of which I am as of yet unfamiliar. (i.e. a rotated micro-etching on the back side of a coated plastic element perhaps?)

This means (unfortunately rather time consuming at this time to do!) that laser etching could correct this:








Controlling material birefringence in sapphire via self-assembled, sub-wavelength defects | Request PDF


Request PDF | Controlling material birefringence in sapphire via self-assembled, sub-wavelength defects | Birefringence is the optical property of a material having a refractive index that depends on the polarization and propagation direction of light.... | Find, read and cite all the research...




www.researchgate.net





*Controlling material birefringence in sapphire via self-assembled, sub-wavelength defects 
(using laser etching)*

ABSTRACT:
Birefringence is the optical property of a material having a refractive index that depends on the polarization and propagation direction of light. Generally, this is an intrinsic optical property of a material and cannot be altered. Here, we report a novel technique—direct laser writing—that enables us to control the natural, material birefringence of sapphire over a broad range of wavelengths. The broadband form birefringence originating from self-assembled, periodic array of sub-wavelength (∼ 50–200 nm) defects created by laser writing, can enhance, suppress or maintain the material birefringence of sapphire without affecting its transparency range in visible or its surface quality.

This below KEY SENTENCE seems to indicate my earlier suggestion to use laser etching on thin film coatings MAY be a viable option!

"...... periodic array of sub-wavelength (∼ 50–200 nm) defects created by laser writing, can enhance, suppress or maintain the material birefringence of sapphire without affecting its transparency range in visible or its surface quality."

This type of materials science is getting in the realm of "Metamaterials" waveguiding and waveform shaping which is QUITE EXPENSIVE to do, so we may have to keep the anti-scratch coatings REALLY THIN and/or microetch the main plastic lens elements themselves as a sort of Waveform Pre-distortion which will re-twist/bend/refract lighwaves back into the direction we want.

I am QUITE SURE all this can be simulated on any major optics-oriented ray-tracing software to TEST what types of etchings would work to INEXPENSIVELY allow plastic lens to function as high-performance profession-grade still photo and cinema lens elements even with all the anti-scratch coatings, polarizers, anti-reflective agents, optical notch filtering, etc. applied to said lenses!

.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 23, 2020)

What is CR coming to? Guess it's just the result of substantive rumours followed by nothing. I want more rumours with more specs!

Jack


----------



## HarryFilm (Feb 23, 2020)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Harry.
> Just asking as my scientific knowledge is limited, but can this (CPL) be done without throwing away 1/2 to 1 stop of light? We all seem to always be fighting higher ISO’s!
> 
> Cheers, Graham.



By CPL I am assuming you mean Circular Polarizer?

Now that I know the Sapphire has TWO difference refraction indices (birefringent), some micro-etching WILL need to be done of both sides of a lens element OR some rather time-consuming and INTENTIONAL light-shaping/waveguiding-like defect introduction (i.e. expensive!) will need to be performed!

No matter WHAT is done, the light loss will be a MINIMUM of 1/2 of a stop! BUT since Polycarbonate/Acrylic is VERY EASY to machine, polish and shape to ANY aspherical and compound curve shape I am QUITE SURE that f/1.0 or f/1.2 is achievable for an inexpensive set of prime lenses and that even zoom lenses WILL be much faster than they currently are if we move over to polycarbonate/acrylic!

.
Again, it is the anti-scratch, glass-creep and plastic formula stabilization issues that will need addressing BUT SIGMA and Canon DEFINITELY HAVE the research muscle to make it happen! I have outlined in previous posts WHERE to start to make SUPER FAST consumer friendly lenses in plastic. They just need to COMMIT to doing it!

Having a SUPER SHARP and SUPER FAST beyond Zeiss Otus image-quality-level of f/1.0 35mm, 50mm and 85 mm prime for $900 US instead of $4500 US would REALLY make my day!

.
.


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## HarryFilm (Feb 23, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> What is CR coming to? Guess it's just the result of substantive rumours followed by nothing. I want more rumours with more specs!
> Jack



---


I think you want THIS RUMOUR BELOW:

*FINAL SPECIFICATIONS for Medium Format Sensor 8K/50.3 Megapixel Combined Stills/Video Global Shutter Mirrorless Camera !!!!*





__





FINAL SPECIFICATIONS for Medium Format Sensor 8K/50.3 Megapixel Combined Stills/Video Global Shutter Mirrorless Camera !!!!


PART 1: Well..... Canon BETTER get Cookin' on a DCI 8K camera cuz HERE IS THE FINAL BURNED-INTO-STONE SPECS for the one coming out sooner than you think: The manufacturer was CONVINCED to include all the following features by a dedicated team of professional photographers/videographers and by...




www.canonrumors.com





---

REMEMBER! You Heard it Here First !!!!!!!!!!

---


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## Jack Douglas (Feb 23, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> 
> I think you want THIS RUMOUR BELOW:
> ...



NO, NO, NO, I want Canon rumours! R5 rumours and ...

Jack


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## JRPhotos (Feb 24, 2020)

Is this the 5D equivalent?


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## Jack Douglas (Feb 24, 2020)

Harry, I fear you'll never make the big time as a prophet.  

Jack


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## sanch (Feb 24, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> It’s not a “compromise” if it’s the limit of what can be achieved now. And of course, you are free to buy whatever uncompromised 8k body the competition is offering, though I’m not sure what that is.


I would rather have a ridiculously good 4K body than take a compromised 8K body producing files that is computationally intensive. If 8K was really prevalent it would have been a different issue. I would prefer a matured tech rather than a high spec sheet which is unfinished.


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## telemaque (Feb 25, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> Originally, Polycarbonate and Acrylic have been used in Eyeglasses/Sunglasses production.
> 
> ...



Waow this should be sufficient information for most people.
I see I have a lot to read;

Thanks Harry.


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## londonxt (Feb 25, 2020)

"EOS Zeus" saw this popup when registering for EOS R5 info on the Canon UK website https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r5/


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## koenkooi (Feb 25, 2020)

I got the same message, I wonder what the R6 codename is


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## Deleted member 381342 (Feb 26, 2020)

ZEUS implies a bigger thing than the R6(which will probably get little fanfare). ZEUS is likely the R5 itself or a hint at R1, I am going to go with it being the codeword for R5. A few companies I have worked at have used Zeus as the codeword for the big deal project.


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## londonxt (Feb 26, 2020)

"You will not be informed of the meaning until the time is right"


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## slclick (Feb 27, 2020)

Who else has received info on an R5 delay?


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## Jack Douglas (Feb 27, 2020)

Not yet.

Jack


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## lnformant (May 4, 2020)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> If you have to ask , then you're not part of the target market. Ignorance is bliss. Leave the real pros in peace and don't get in their way.


Scientists are working on creating an enhanced clone called Mark R5 TAEM I, and it's purpose will be to start petitions across photography websites for making Green Lantern firmware to unlock the full potential of the R5 such as unicorn stripes and other useful video functions


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