# Ebay or Adorama Used?



## whatjaimesaid (Jan 1, 2012)

Am I better off going with Ebay or Adorama Used for used equipment? Any advice?


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## TexPhoto (Jan 1, 2012)

First eBay is not a seller, it is a marketplace where individuals and businesses sell items. So there is really no way to say "eBay is a good trustworthy seller". Buying on eBay takes a little skill and common sense. (X10 for selling) You look at the sellers feedback etc. 

Ebay is also an auction, and prices for used goods occasionally go higher than identical new gear. Why? i guess people don't do their research, and get edited by the auction, or just want to win.

What I generally tell people is your first eBay experience should not be buying or selling a multi-thousand dollar item. Unless a few thousand is nothing to you. There is a ton of advice on the web about buying and selling on ebay, so i won't repeat it here. 

Adomrama is a long established business with a good reputation. Humorously, they also sell things on eBay...


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 1, 2012)

For buying or selling?


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## m3tek44 (Jan 1, 2012)

How about craigslist? you can meet F2F.


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## elflord (Jan 1, 2012)

whatjaimesaid said:


> Am I better off going with Ebay or Adorama Used for used equipment? Any advice?


Reputable dealers for used equipment: bhphotovideo.com, adorama, keh.com. The latter have a really good selection of older equipment (film cameras and lenses) 

ebay is one place to buy from private sellers though some dealers also list there. 

For buying from private sellers, I'd enthusiastically recommend fred miranda forums (fredmiranda.com). 

For selling, the dealers will not offer you a very good price -- you are better off selling it yourself to a private party. I'd recommend fredmiranda for this.


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## Harley (Jan 1, 2012)

Mixed bag on eBay... Sometimes you can find a good deal though. Craigslist is the same. I've been really happy with couple of purchases from KEH though!


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## Helen Oster (Jan 1, 2012)

TexPhoto said:


> Adorama is a long established business with a good reputation. Humorously, they also sell things on eBay...



Thank you for the feedback! (and I'm only an email away for advice and after-sales support if required: [email protected])

Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 1, 2012)

I have been buying used from the Canon refurb store whenever they have a sale, or thru the Canon customer loyalty program.

My second choice would be Craigslist, where I can see the equipment, question the seller, and take a few test shots with it.

Then a reputable seller like KEH, Adorama, B&H, there are lots of them. last on my list is Ebay then Fred Miranda. There is absolutely no buyer protection on Fred Miranda, at least ebay will refund most of your purchase price if you get cheated.

Use a credit card if you can, then you can take the evidence to your bank for a credit card chargeback if the deal goes sour and the seller is cheating you.


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## elflord (Jan 1, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Then a reputable seller like KEH, Adorama, B&H, there are lots of them. last on my list is Ebay then Fred Miranda. There is absolutely no buyer protection on Fred Miranda, at least ebay will refund most of your purchase price if you get cheated.



Nearly all sellers on fredmiranda accept paypal. This gives you the same protection you would have if you used ebay (provided you use the non-gift option, of course.)


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## DanoPhoto (Jan 1, 2012)

Assuming tha the OP is talking about buying and not selling : , a reputable reseller/dealer (with standard consumer protections) versus an anonymous person (caveat emptor) seems like an obvious choice. 


That being said, if you can inspect the equipment and do a F2F transaction, then you can really get some good deals.


Dan.


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## elflord (Jan 1, 2012)

DanoPhoto said:


> Assuming tha the OP is talking about buying and not selling : , a reputable reseller/dealer (with standard consumer protections)
> versus an anonymous person (caveat emptor) seems like an obvious choice.



If we follow that line of reasoning, getting the new item with a manufacturer warranty versus buying used seems like an obvious choice, so why buy used at all ?

Markets have a way of figuring out obvious choices, and the result is that options that are obviously better for the buyer are priced accordingly. That is, buyers will pay more for the same item if it's sold by a reputable dealer. Reputable dealers will generally charge more because they are not liquidating consumption assets, but acting as an intermediary between a buyer and seller and hence need to be compensated for the risk and expense that entails. 

It is not quite correct to assert that transactions on fredmiranda (or ebay for that matter) are to an "anonymous person" for two reasons -- one is that some of the private parties have easily verifiable identities, the other is that paypal accounts are not anonymous. 

In terms of which one is a "better deal" (e.g. whether you can buy from the reputable seller and still get a good price), there are some occasions where canon's refurbs are very good deals (e.g. when they have 15% off the refurb price which is already 20% off the new price for a markdown of about 32%). Sometimes you can land a deal on craigslist. Otherwise it just boils down to individual risk preferences (and again, if you are very risk averse, buying new is the best choice) 

Sometimes private party transactions on fredmiranda are the way to go because the dealers simply don't have the item you're looking for, or they have the item but are pricing it a long way from the market.


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## unfocused (Jan 1, 2012)

This is TMI, but here goes, anyway:

Over the years I have bought hundreds of items on eBay with very few and only minor problems. But, I've never bought a used lens through eBay and will explain why.

But first, it's probably good to make sure you understand a few things about used equipment.

Canon sells refurbished equipment through their refurbished store. Adorama and B&H also offer refurbished equipment as well as used. Refurbished from Canon and usually from Adorama and B&H means it has been inspected and serviced by an official Canon facility. Adorama and B&H will usually state that the equipment has been refurbished by the manufacturer (Canon).

Many people, myself included, consider refurbished lenses "better than new" because they have been thoroughly inspected, cleaned and, if necessary, repaired individually. A new lens is straight off the production line and, I feel, doesn't get the individual attention of a refurbished. Nothing wrong with a new lens and they come with a full warranty, so if there are any problems they can easily be returned. Refurbished comes with a limited warranty, giving you time to inspect and test out the lens, but it won't have the full warranty of a new lens.

The availability of refurbished lenses is hit and miss. The Canon refurbished store has some lenses available at all times and other lenses only available sporadically. Some lenses never seem to show up on the Canon refurbished site.

Adorama and B&H do not have as large of an inventory of refurbished lenses on a consistent basis, but they sometimes have lenses that the Canon store does not have and often they are very good deals.

Both Adorama and B&H also sell used lenses. They rate those lenses so you know what condition they are in. Both offer a 90-Day warranty on used lenses and a 30-Day return policy. 

Clearly, for used or refurbished equipment, Canon, Adorama and B&H are the safest choices.

Now, for eBay. Obviously, it is a "buyer beware" market, however they do offer some protections and dispute resolution, especially if you pay using Pay Pal (which they own). 

As I said, I have bought hundreds of items through eBay over the years. I have never encountered fraud. But, I am a cautious buyer and I never purchase something for more than I want to lose. I check the seller's feedback and volume. 

Most items are smaller purchases. I have bought lighting equipment (including a very good condition 580 EXII), light stands, soft boxes, accessories and lots of collectibles for another of my hobbies. The feedback system really does weed out unscrupulous dealers. But, you have to read the descriptions very carefully and make sure you know what you are buying. Before buying anything on eBay I watch the auctions for several days or weeks to see what the going price is. Unless it is an unusual or rare item, I seldom bid on the first item I spot. One thing I've learned about eBay is that almost any item you see listed will be listed again eventually (obviously not the same exact items, but another one just like it).

I am only talking about used items on eBay by the way. Over the last several years, eBay has really been taken over by professional sellers and new items. Many of these dealers sell items at a "Buy it Now" price that is often more than Adorama's or B&H's regular price.

Now, why don't I buy used lenses on eBay? Well, I have bid on them, but to be honest I don't think the prices are that good. It seems that almost every time I've bid on a used lens, the final price ends up being very close to or even above the going refurbished or used price from Adorama or B&H. To me, the relative risks of buying used from an individual demands that I get a significantly lower price. The warranty and protections offered by Adorama, B&H or Canon is worth something to me and I'm willing to pay a slight premium for those protections.

That's really what you have to ask yourself: how much risk are you willing to take? As with almost everything in life, the less risk you want to take, the more you have to pay. 

This is also why I am not likely to buy off Craig's list. To me, meeting the person face-to-face offers no real protection. The most honest person in the world could sell you a bad lens because they may not even know what a bad lens is. 

Okay, as I said, way too much information. But I thought sharing one perspective might be helpful.


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## wickidwombat (Jan 1, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Now, why don't I buy used lenses on eBay? Well, I have bid on them, but to be honest I don't think the prices are that good. It seems that almost every time I've bid on a used lens, the final price ends up being very close to or even above the going refurbished or used price from Adorama or B&H. To me, the relative risks of buying used from an individual demands that I get a significantly lower price. The warranty and protections offered by Adorama, B&H or Canon is worth something to me and I'm willing to pay a slight premium for those protections.



I find this too However i did snag a 300 f4L for $800 on ebay which is great but generally i see used value go for near new prices on lenses


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## whatjaimesaid (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks, everyone. I was talking about both buying and selling, though I seemed to find a LOT of folks getting burned by selling through a third-party. I've had mostly good luck selling on eBay and mostly good luck buying. But I have never bought a camera body on eBay and the "No Returns Accepted" part of the offer makes me cringe.

I am in the midst of shopping for a 5Dc ... and trying to decide if I should just wait until I can get the 5DMII. Seems like if a good enough deal came along, I'd hop on it.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 1, 2012)

unfocused said:


> This is also why I am not likely to buy off Craig's list. To me, meeting the person face-to-face offers no real protection. The most honest person in the world could sell you a bad lens because they may not even know what a bad lens is.



I actually prefer Craigslist. _You_ as the buyer make the determination as to whether the lens is good or bad, no worries if it's as-advertised, no transaction fees. Prices are lower than eBay/FM, generally (ignoring the 18-55 kit lenses listed for $180, that is...).


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## elflord (Jan 1, 2012)

whatjaimesaid said:


> I am in the midst of shopping for a 5Dc ... and trying to decide if I should just wait until I can get the 5DMII. Seems like if a good enough deal came along, I'd hop on it.



As much as I sometimes like private sales (because the prices can be better), adorama have several used 5Dc in their inventory, at prices competitive with fredmiranda listings, so that's probably where I'd go if I wanted a used one now.


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## whatjaimesaid (Jan 2, 2012)

That's where I am leaning. I think it'll be 6-9 months before I can get a 5DMII and that's a lot of shooting time.


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## DanoPhoto (Jan 2, 2012)

@elford - great points. My reply was way to general in the examples I used. Only using the experiences I have had.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 2, 2012)

elflord said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Then a reputable seller like KEH, Adorama, B&H, there are lots of them. last on my list is Ebay then Fred Miranda. There is absolutely no buyer protection on Fred Miranda, at least ebay will refund most of your purchase price if you get cheated.
> ...



Not true!! He can send you a box of dirt, and as long as he has the signature confirmation, you are screwed. If I get a box of dirt using a credit card, my bank will chargeback, but PayPal does not cover you unless you purchase buyer protection.

Ebay will refund you if the item is substantially different from the description, but not PayPal. You can buy a moneyback guarantee from PayPal, but how many are aware that you have to pay to get a guarantee??

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/warranty-outside


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## elflord (Jan 2, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> elflord said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



paypal have a "buyer protection" program that by my reading of the description does not require an additional fee (besides the standard paypal charge) I hadn't seen the "money back guarantee" thing you linked to before, so I can't really comment on it. 

So no, you are not screwed if they send you a box of dirt. They do have a process that ends with you getting your money back in that scenario (in addition to the recourse your credit card provider offers)


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 2, 2012)

elflord said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > elflord said:
> ...


I'd be interested in seeing the money back clause you refer to, maybe I could send a copy to all the buyers who were left hanging.

Paypal puts out lots of hype about buyer protection, but if you read it closely, there is no substance.

Paypal only refers you to ebay if you get cheated on something unless you have purchased the money back guarantee, which most people are not aware of. I've used paypal now since it first came out, with well over 10,000 transactions, and have always had them cover the few thieves that hooked me on a purchase or on a sale. 

It was only because I read and understood the rules very well that I was covered. Ebay once refunded me $25 on a several hundred dollar purchase that was a fraud. PayPal did nothing. After that, I made it a point to use a credit card issued thru my credit union for purchases. I've only had to charge back once when I got a box of junk in the mail, but my credit card company backcharged Paypal immediately after I sent my credit union a signed statement and all the e-mails.


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## elflord (Jan 2, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'd be interested in seeing the money back clause you refer to, maybe I could send a copy to all the buyers who were left hanging.



https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full#13.%20Protection%20for%20Buyers.

"PayPal Purchase Protection (also known as PayPal Buyer Protection) helps you if you encounter either of these problems:
1. You did not receive the item you paid for with PayPal – “Item Not Received” (INR), or
2. You received an item you paid for with PayPal but it is “Significantly Not as Described” (SNAD) (as described below)
"

"13.4 Coverage Amount. If you are eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection and PayPal finds in your favor on your Claim, PayPal will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item and original shipping costs – with no cap on coverage."


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## Jedifarce (Jan 2, 2012)

whatjaimesaid said:


> Am I better off going with Ebay or Adorama Used for used equipment? Any advice?



Unless you're dealing with a seller that has a lot of rep points, Adorama is more safe because they actually rate the qaulity of their used products. However, if it's an item you really want or need and it isn't available any place else - like an anamorphic lens adapter - ebay may be your only option.


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## Jedifarce (Jan 2, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:



> For buying or selling?



If it's for selling, ebay - I think of Adorama as a car dealership. You'll get more if you can sell your used product on your own. Sending in your items to Adorama to have it apraised and quoted is more of a convience factor rather than one of monetary gain. You'll take a hit on the value of your used gear sending it into Adorama. Personal experience, you'll get about half of what it's worth.


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## Jedifarce (Jan 2, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Clearly, for used or refurbished equipment, Canon, Adorama and B&H are the safest choices.



Folks keep in mind the Canon store is Canon only items while Adorama and B&H will carry the other brands.


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## Jedifarce (Jan 2, 2012)

Helen Oster said:


> Thank you for the feedback! (and I'm only an email away for advice and after-sales support if required: [email protected])
> 
> Helen Oster
> Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador



One other thing, a minor complaint. When I sent my used gear into Adorama to be appraised and the rep was I dealing with through emails had no idea where my gear was even though it was signed by somebody at Adorama as recieved. I had to send multiple emails to various departments to track it down within Adorama. Eventually it was found, but why should I have to do that? 

'Helen Oster, Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador' are you reading this?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 2, 2012)

elflord said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be interested in seeing the money back clause you refer to, maybe I could send a copy to all the buyers who were left hanging.
> ...



13.2 Eligibility Requirements. 

a.To be eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection you must meet all of the following requirements:

•Pay for the eligible item from your Account.

•Pay for the full amount of the item with one payment. Items purchased with multiple payments – like a deposit followed by a final payment – are not eligible. 

•Send the payment to the Seller through:

•the eBay “Pay Now” button or the eBay invoice; or

•the “Send Money” button of your Account by selecting “eBay  Item” and entering your eBay User ID and the eBay item number for purchases on eBay website; or

•the Send Money tab on the PayPal website, by clicking the “Purchase” tab, or by selecting the “Checkout with PayPal” button  or otherwise selecting PayPal as part of a Seller’s checkout flow.

•Open a Dispute within 45 Days of the date you sent the payment, then follow the online dispute resolution process described below under Dispute Resolution. For Pay After Delivery transactions you must open your Dispute within 45 Days of the date of your transaction.

•Have an Account in good standing.

b.For items purchased on eBay  look for either a PayPal or eBay purchase or buyer protection message in the eBay listing. If you see a message, and you meet the eligibility requirements, then your purchase is covered by PayPal Purchase Protection. The purchase or buyer protection message will vary based on the eBay website. The message must appear on the top part of the listing  and not under the “Description” or “Shipping and Payments” tabs. If the listing does not include the purchase or buyer protection message, then it is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection.


They basically talk ebay, and are silent on off ebay protection. I'd use a credit card, that eliminates any concern of fraud. Many FM sellers will not accept credit cards thru paypal, that eliminates them from any concern for me.

FM does not offer any guarantee or buyer protection, or help with a transaction, even though they are making money by charging sellers. You are on your own trying to convince paypal that you did not get what was advertised. Since a seller can edit his listing, it might not say the same thing after you receive the box of dirt.

Here is one of many posts made by FM buyers who got burned.


Total Posts: 562
Country: Canada

p.1 #22 · Paypal Gift - Please read 



ReneMurea wrote:
molson wrote:
Unfortunately, PayPal will always side with a buyer who wants to defraud a seller, and the seller has no recourse, so the same rules about checking references and only dealing with established members applies to using regular PayPal just as it does to using PayPal Gift.
Not true. Recently I sold a lens on eBay and the buyer claimed that he never received it, though the tracking number showed "delivered". He opened the case and it was closed in my favor the same day. I always pay extra for delivery confirmation not to mention the pictures I take when I pack the goods and seal the box. This way no one can claim I sent out a brick instead of a lens. 

Rene:
What applies to Ebay purchases does not necessarily apply to outside Ebay like here.
Last year, I bought a lens on this forum paid withregulat Paypal.Never received the lens ,contacted Paypal , won my case but the guy had emptied his bank account so I got an email saying that
when he replenishes (yeah right) his bank account , then and only then, they will refund.
Thanks to some members,they tracked him down and I eventually got my lens,only due to the
diligence of this community.
Sorry,long but true story.


As you can see, Paypal may not refund, they try to get the money back out of the sellers account, but if he has emptied it ... 

Beware of Paypal's silence on issues outside of ebay.


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## elflord (Jan 2, 2012)

Here is the relevant clause:



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> _
> Send the payment to the Seller through:
> [...]
> •the Send Money tab on the PayPal website, by clicking the “Purchase” tab, or by selecting the “Checkout with PayPal” button  or otherwise selecting PayPal as part of a Seller’s checkout flow._
> [/i]





> They basically talk ebay, and are silent on off ebay protection. I'd use a credit card, that eliminates any concern of fraud. Many FM sellers will not accept credit cards thru paypal, that eliminates them from any concern for me.



This is simply not true, the above quite explicitly covers off-ebay purchases.

I agree that I would trust my credit card issuer over paypal, but paypal's terms of service state that "If you are eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection and PayPal finds in your favor on your Claim, PayPal will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item and original shipping costs – with no cap on coverage." 

That is, PayPal will reimburse you, not "Paypal will attempt to recover your funds from the seller". I think the whole ebay thing is a red herring -- I don't see anything in the TOS which indicates that ebay users get additional protection.

I haven't seen sellers explicitly state no credit cards, but that would be a red flag to me. I don't see why an honest seller would ask for that.


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## Helen Oster (Jan 2, 2012)

Jedifarce said:


> .....When I sent my used gear into Adorama to be appraised and the rep was I dealing with through emails had no idea where my gear was even though it was signed by somebody at Adorama as recieved.



We are carrying around 25,000 used items in our warehouse at any one time, and we receive literally hundreds of items for evaluation every single day.
They are delivered and signed for at our New Jersey Distribution Center; from there they are carried by a small truck to the used department which is in our offices in NYC.

I hope this clarifies why it isn't always possible to immediately ID a single item sent in - and it certainly wouldn't even have been unpacked until at least the day after being signed for.

However, you are most welcome to contact me directly if you ever have any additional queries regarding either used or new items from Adorama: [email protected]


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## skitron (Jan 2, 2012)

FWIW, I've only used Adorama once for used stuff, but found their gradings to be representative. Meaning I was pleasantly satisfied with a T1i I bought from them.


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## Axilrod (Jan 2, 2012)

+1 for Craigslist. 
I've gotten the following from CL in the past year:
70-200 f/2.8 IS
24-70 f/2.8 (2 diff copies)
16-35mm f/2.8 II
14L II
35L
50L

I got the 85L II and a different copy of the 35L from a local store, both used. 100L Macro and 135L from another local store. But the best deals came from CL for sure. Photography is a specialty, so it's pretty easy to feel out how legitimate someone is by asking a few questions. I've sold quite a few on there too, and of course you get scam emails, but just avoid shipping and whatnot and you'll be fine.


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## Helen Oster (Jan 4, 2012)

skitron said:


> FWIW, I've only used Adorama once for used stuff, but found their gradings to be representative. Meaning I was pleasantly satisfied with a T1i I bought from them.



Delighted to hear it, thank you!


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## Harley (Jan 10, 2012)

Really great info from unfocused. 

I bought my 7D from Canon as a refurb. It's been amazing and the price is very hard to argue with when you know that the camera has been thoroughly looked over by a trained person.


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