# EF, RF, Trolls and Children



## YuengLinger (Sep 24, 2018)

None of the folks who have replied with such anger to speculation regarding the future of EF has adequately explained their anger. The general reply is along the lines of "crazy talk." Fortunately there are patient CR members who clearly and logically explain why they aren't worried, why EF is still good to buy when needed now, and good products to hold for some years. And I do appreciate and thank them! Maybe I did get a little too worried about things happening too fast with the change from EF to RF (yes, I predicted a new mount with an adapter, as did many, many others). But I knew there would be a few more years of EF relevance, just not innovation. I never claimed EF would die a sudden-death, but that it would, upon the release of a new FF mirrorless, become a legacy tech, supported for a time, but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing.

I do not believe RF is a side line or a niche or a one-off or an experiment. I believe Canon is committed to making it part of their flagship pro and prosumer bodies. Wrong or right, people who believe something and explain themselves the best they can, people who have been members here discussing dozens of topics for years...We aren't "trolls." But people who call us such because we've scared the fish swimming in the aquariums of their minds are, well, not very pleasant. Maybe they are just stressed out in this big world of constant change. Who isn't? But if you click "Ignore" because a post has made you think, challenges your own view, wow, how sad that is even for a middle-school kid, much less an adult.


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## Don Haines (Sep 24, 2018)

My problem was with the claims that EF was dead and how Canon was screwing people....

Obviously, EF continues on..... there are new releases coming....

Also, the introduction of the R mount and the three adapters does not make EF lenses obsolete, it ADDS functionality to a camera/lens combination.....


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 24, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> I never claimed EF would die a sudden-death, but that it would, upon the release of a new FF mirrorless, become a legacy tech, supported for a time, but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing.


I’m curious...upon release of the EOS M, do you believe that APS-C DSLRs and lenses became legacy tech, supported for a time but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 24, 2018)

Oh, and incidentally...starting a bunch of topics that are slight variations on the same basic question does start to push into territory that bears a remarkable resemblance to the Ettenmoors.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 24, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> I’m curious...upon release of the EOS M, do you believe that APS-C DSLRs and lenses became legacy tech, supported for a time but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing?


No.


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## Mikehit (Sep 24, 2018)

As I have said elsewhere in the last couple of days, people are called trolls only when they repeat the same assertions time and again without ever entering a debate on the points raised and fail (or do not want to ) realise that even for those they insult as being Canon apologists the issue is more about when Canon will introduce the much-sought after features, rather than if. 

This is not helped in that people have become, shall we say 'elastic' with their use of the English language and logic and phrase things in inflammatory ways - but when someone responds they get all upset. Product segmentation is no longer a manufacturing and marketing necessity but is 'nerfing' or 'crippling' (yes, even Sony). Not putting in everything from the highest end model without increasing the price is now 'screwing the client'. A new model now makes everything else 'obsolete'. Being second to market is now being on the road to oblivion. I think it simply laziness of thought and then they get annoyed when someone points out the extreme nature of their comments.

Is this unique to Canon forums or do Nikon and Sony have this 'problem' as well? On brief visits over there I have not seen it. When pointing out the fallacy of such comments we often get a backpedalling of Trumpian proportions along the lines of 'well I only want Canon to be the best' as if Canon reads this forum and responds to it. Now that CaNikon (and Panasonic!) have joined the FF mirrorless revolution, only now will we see just how much advantages mirrorless has in the real world instead of one where one company has a product no-one else has. My guess is that, just like the last 10 years, the key buying decisions will not be driven by sensor dynamic range or video quality.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 24, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> My problem was with the claims that EF was dead and how Canon was screwing people....
> 
> Obviously, EF continues on..... there are new releases coming....
> 
> Also, the introduction of the R mount and the three adapters does not make EF lenses obsolete, it ADDS functionality to a camera/lens combination.....


I was never somebody who claimed or even suspected Canon was in any way trying to screw their customers. I did see such claims in different threads, but I never agreed with them. I do believe, from a marketing perspective, that the timing of certain new EF lenses with only nominal updates suggested that Canon was trying to avoid scaring existing EF customers when the new Mount came out. Of course that was a leap of speculation, but it was no claim of some malevolent conspiracy.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 24, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Oh, and incidentally...starting a bunch of topics that are slight variations on the same basic question does start to push into territory that bears a remarkable resemblance to the Ettenmoors.


If three or four topics in a 10-day period, each with different slants, is what you mean buy a bunch, then that is a pretty low standard. And don't forget, those posts were made in the month prior to the announcement of the new RF mount. Sometimes you seem so quick to swat down those of us not gifted with your Superior Intellect that you overlook excitement and genuine concern. 

This thread isn't meant as a way for me to air my hurt feelings--I've started it because the word "troll" seems to be getting thrown at people quite a bit more the past few months. (Maybe I'm more sensitive to it.)

As have the words "conspiracy theory," tin-foil hat," "grandiose," and others which don't answer a question or contribute to understanding, but instead are intended to shut down discussions.

My suggestion: If a member is burnt out, weary, bored, or otherwise generally cranky, take a few days off, or at least pass on getting involved in a thread you claim is boring, irrelevant, irritating, etc.


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## Mikehit (Sep 24, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> This thread isn't meant as a way for me to air my hurt feelings--I've started it because the word "troll" seems to be getting thrown at people quite a bit more the past few months. (Maybe I'm more sensitive to it.)
> 
> As have the words "conspiracy theory," tin-foil hat," "grandiose," and others which don't answer a question or contribute to understanding, but instead are intended to shut down discussions.



Do you accept that other people feel the same way when any discussion of why Canon do what they do gets them labelled as 'shills' and canon apologists' - understanding is not the same as complicity? And that such labels are also a way of shutting down debate?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 24, 2018)

There are many people and they all had differing expectations. I think that Canon described the reasons for producing this camera very well. Actually, it would do virtually everything I want, but it may be missing tethering via USB, thats not clear.

Its human nature, and people not having the same viewpoint are not trolls, they are expressing their feelings. Name calling though is a different thing, and calling our members Trolls or other names does not reflect well on the person doing it.

I did not order one because the adapter for EF was not bundled, and I'd order a body only to upgrade my SL-2 and use EF lenses. I'd still have a fairly portable 2nd body that could share my EF lenses, and I like to play with new toys. There was no guarantee of getting a adapter along with the camera when ordering separately, and its not like I actually needed it, so I'll wait for a big discount later next year. (actually, I can get a 7% discount thru my employee discount plan right now).


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## Keith_Reeder (Sep 24, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> But people who call us such because we've scared the fish swimming in the aquariums of their minds are, well, not very pleasant.


But people who come out with snarky, smartarsed comments like that are are, right..?

And calling people you're at odds with "children", for no other reason than that you demand them to be at odds with you in a way that _you're happy with_?

_Riiiiight... _Glad we got _that_ cleared up.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 24, 2018)

Canon will still produce EF lenses and EF bodies for as long as it's profitable to do so.

So we all decide the future with our wallets. Talking about it makes no difference.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 24, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Do you accept that other people feel the same way when any discussion of why Canon do what they do gets them labelled as 'shills' and canon apologists' - understanding is not the same as complicity? And that such labels are also a way of shutting down debate?


Yes.


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## docsmith (Sep 24, 2018)

A good rule of thumb...panic is not good. Hysteria, no better. 

I suspect this is coming out of threads that I stopped reading, but to take on why I am not doing either regarding RF. Some of my thoughts:

RF is likely the future, but Canon needs time to roll out the future. It will take time to announce/release a whole new line up. I expect maybe 4-5 lenses per year over 5 years before slowing down to the typical 2-3 new lenses per year we've seen with EF. 
Canon will likely focus on lenses where RF has an advantage over EF first. Conventional wisdom is that is wider apertures.
Canon has only announced 1 RF lens that would replace one of my current lenses (my Sigma 50A vs the RF 50 1.2). 
Even Nikon's rollout time table would only replace a 2 of my lenses by 2021.
Given all of this, I do not think Canon will have the right RF lenses to replace even the majority of my kit until say 2023 to 2025. 
I expect the point where RF lenses can replace EF lenses to be the mid-point of the transition. What you are seeing now is the start. So, I expect the midpoint to be 2023-2025.
I could shoot pretty much everything I want with my current kit. I am always interested in "better"....but in terms of shots I am missing, really, I am not missing much. So, EF will work for me for the foreseeable future.
My current plan is to get a second or third generation R body to replace my second body. Preferably something with high MP. After that, I will occasionally pick up RF lenses when they offer me something better than my current kit. This will make my conversion somewhat seemless, but I expect it to take a decade.

Final point, people have been talking about mirrorless since what, 2012? Its easily been 5-6 years. Now we have the first body. Even Canon admits it is not "professional." It is very good, targeted between the 6D and 5D series, but there are more features coming. 

Panic is not needed. Really, additional patience is. We are at the start, not the end.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 24, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> But people who come out with snarky, smartarsed comments like that are are, right..?
> 
> And calling people you're at odds with "children", for no other reason than that you demand them to be at odds with you in a way that _you're happy with_?
> 
> _Riiiiight... _Glad we got _that_ cleared up.



Point taken, Keith, about the fish tank remark. But note I am making a general observation suggesting some posters are nervous or easily upset--not attacking a specific individual in reply to a post.

And, absolutely, somebody hitting the Ignore button or screaming "Troll" reflexively is acting childishly.

Why are you so often so angry when you post online? Even your little blurb under your name is a pretty clear indication of your mindset.


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## takesome1 (Sep 24, 2018)

Internet Troll's are at their best when they can Troll and you never know you are trolled. 

Often you can lay Troll bait and they will show themselves, but if they are hanging out with other Troll's they will deny being a Troll.

Here is one definition in the urban dictionary:
"_*A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues.*_ "

and another

*"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion." *

So if a person meets those definitions I would say they are Trolls, whether they wish to admit it or not.


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## takesome1 (Sep 24, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> Why are you so often so angry when you post online? Even your little blurb under your name is a pretty clear indication of your mindset.



He may, or may not realize it, but the blurb is actually good Troll bait. A bad Troll will use it to see if they can get a rise from him. A good one might just casually poke at him just to test the statement.


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## takesome1 (Sep 24, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> I’m curious...upon release of the EOS M, do you believe that APS-C DSLRs and lenses became legacy tech, supported for a time but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing?



One must respect the master of an art form when he practices, even as the data supports and covers his position so well. 

I can not help but think the purchase of my M50 did impact the sales of APC-C DSLR's by one unit. (1)


Are we off topic?


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## Don Haines (Sep 24, 2018)

docsmith said:


> A good rule of thumb...panic is not good. Hysteria, no better.
> 
> I suspect this is coming out of threads that I stopped reading, but to take on why I am not doing either regarding RF. Some of my thoughts:
> 
> ...




I agree with you. RF is the future.... However, unlike the FD to EF transition where all your glass became obsolete overnight, this time all your EF glass remains usable, and if you get the adapter with the drop-in filter or extra control ring, your legacy glass is enhanced.

It is going to take a long time before (if ever) Canon stops making EF mount cameras, but I can see the rebel lineup switching over to R mount a lot sooner than the XD series of cameras. As has been said, time will tell what happens, but it isn't going to happen fast...

I'm not going to bite on the R camera, but there will be a higher end successor at some point and I am very curious to see what it brings to the table....


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## YuengLinger (Sep 24, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> One must respect the master of an art form when he practices, even as the data supports and covers his position so well.
> 
> I can not help but think the purchase of my M50 did impact the sales of APC-C DSLR's by one unit. (1)
> 
> ...


I never gave the M series much thought, as the bodies + lenses don't seem small enough to warrant having them in addition to my 80D. (By the way, just bought an ef-s 35mm f/2.8 STM IS Macro. Love it! For family and other fun photography...It's sharp enough to do nicely for detail shots too. Works fine for portraits of the kids and friends.)

Personally, I don't think the analogy, comparing the effect of the M series on EF-S bodies, is completely satisfying. EF has been the standard for Canon for over 30 years, the flagship mount, and EF lenses fit fine on EF-S bodies. Many people buying an EF-S body hope someday to move up to full frame. Some just go ahead and buy EF-S lenses, others don't. (I started with the 20D but only own two ef-s lenses, the 24mm pancake and the above mentioned 35mm macro.) No adapter needed when an EF lens is involved.

The big differences between ef-s and ef? Price and size, right? So, for me, the impact of ef-s going away (or being completely adapter dependent), were it to happen, would be minimal. But for somebody with a collection of EF lenses, thinking about what impact current and future RF lenses will have on the value of that collection plays a part in deciding which EF lens to buy or not buy next. Maybe not for every customer, of course, but for some.

The top dSLR's all use EF exclusively. When I think of EF, I think of the best lenses and the best bodies. EF-S is, well, second rate. And I think the M series is a niche for people looking for something relatively compact.

It's easy to say, "M lenses haven't poached EF-S lenses; therefore, RF lenses won't affect sales of EF lenses." But this is not based on facts; it's conjecture.


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## takesome1 (Sep 24, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> It's easy to say, "M lenses haven't poached EF-S lenses; therefore, RF lenses won't affect sales of EF lenses." But this is not based on facts; it's conjecture.



The opposite is true, it is a fact that the sales of the M have poached at least 1 sell away from EF-S. I am that one.
It is true that when it comes time to buy a new body for certain purposes I may buy an RF over EF.

What is conjecture is the extent the sales will be impacted, either positively, negatively or any overall.

For the foreseeable future I could see myself buying both EF and RF lenses depending on what purpose I had in mind.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 24, 2018)

I'm confident that within two years Canon will make the R series irresistible to current FF owners looking to upgrade. If you're happy with your dSLR, you can keep your dSLR.


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## docsmith (Sep 25, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> ... if you get the adapter with the drop-in filter or extra control ring, your legacy glass is enhanced./.



And that is the bit that is a real bonus. RF lenses will really need to be better than their EF equivalents. Otherwise, I could see sticking with EF glass and the drop-in filter or control ring. Right now, I often travel with 9 different filters (2 different NDs and CPLs for 3 different thread sizes). Imaging cutting that down to 3 smaller filters. 

That is a very real size savings. But get me that higher end R camera first.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 25, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> I'm confident that within two years Canon will make the R series irresistible to current FF owners looking to upgrade. If you're happy with your dSLR, you can keep your dSLR.


I lack your confidence in that timeline. But hey, maybe there _will_ be a 1-series style EOS R by then.


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 25, 2018)

There certainly are going to be products that will be of interest. The question is, whether they will cause us to open our pocket books.

BTW when someone persists in using a derogatory term, is that not somewhat antagonistic. A word that comes to mind is "mirror slapper". I'm using a "mirror slapper" and I guess the idea is to make me feel lower as a human for continuing to be satisfied with it. What if it was your workplace and you were driving a nice older car and it was being referenced as a clunker? People who make these kinds of comments don't get very high marks from me relative to their IQ.

Jack


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## Don Haines (Sep 25, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> There certainly are going to be products that will be of interest. The question is, whether they will cause us to open our pocket books.
> 
> BTW when someone persists in using a derogatory term, is that not somewhat antagonistic. A word that comes to mind is "mirror slapper". I'm using a "mirror slapper" and I guess the idea is to make me feel lower as a human for continuing to be satisfied with it. What if it was your workplace and you were driving a nice older car and it was being referenced as a clunker? People who make these kinds of comments don't get very high marks from me relative to their IQ.
> 
> Jack


I drive a "clunker". It still works great and gets me to work and back... and can carry two canoes and gear when I go on trips. No need to upgrade to anything else.... it works, it's paid for, and it does all that I need. Replacing it with something new adds zero useful functionality for me.....

The same with my cameras and lenses.... They are mirror slappers, but they work great! They do what I want, and until something better comes along that adds more functionality (in things that matter to me), I would be stupid to replace them for the sake of having something newer. 

Eventually, both my car and my camera will die... then I replace them. Clunkers, mirror slappers.... it just means I didn't waste money....


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## pj1974 (Sep 25, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I agree with you. RF is the future.... However, unlike the FD to EF transition where all your glass became obsolete overnight, this time all your EF glass remains usable, and if you get the adapter with the drop-in filter or extra control ring, your legacy glass is enhanced.
> 
> It is going to take a long time before (if ever) Canon stops making EF mount cameras, but I can see the rebel lineup switching over to R mount a lot sooner than the XD series of cameras. As has been said, time will tell what happens, but it isn't going to happen fast...
> 
> I'm not going to bite on the R camera, but there will be a higher end successor at some point and I am very curious to see what it brings to the table....



Thanks for your post here, Don. I believe RF will be one part of the future (with EF in second place in terms of Canon's R&D and marketing effort, etc). I expect you meant, in time the vast majority of Canon's lens development will focus on RF (and in the eventual future, it may be exclusively RF).

Indeed, I do agree with you that it is going to be a long time before Canon ever stops making EF (or even EF-S) lenses, especially as these have their place on R mount bodies (with the adaptor/s, and EF-S useful for current 4K crop).

I am curious as to why you believe the Rebel (XXXD) models will switch over to R mount sooner than the XD mount? (By XD mount, do you mean the 7D, 6D and 5D models/lines?) As the XXXD (Rebel) models are APS-C - I believe we will not see a 'like for like' transition to R mount. (Indeed as the 7D is also APS-C, that is the model with the most 'mirrorless question-marks' in my mind).

The current EOS R appears to sit between the 6D and 5D models (based on its features and on Canon's own wording). I take this to indicate there will be a higher end FF mirrorless (like 5DIV and/or 5DS/R) as well as a more 'entry level' FF mirrorless (comparable to the 6D).

I currently am very happy with my APS-C cameras (my primary camera now being the 80D, with 7D as backup). I also own some older XXXD models, and the Canon M5 and M10 APS-C mirrorless models. These EOS M bodies come into their own for great portability (as well as a few specific lens options / selections, e.g. the Samyang 12mm f/2 and Canon EF-M 22mm f/2). 

Having written that, I do see me possibly moving up to a FF mirrorless at some stage in the future. Whether that's the EOS R (or other models) will depend on the features I value from a primary camera body at that time, as well as the external factors at that time (e.g. available finances, and lenses - the EF/EF-S lenses I will own at that stage vs the RF lenses available). I was particularly glad to see that EF-S lenses could be used via the lens adapter, this was something I did not expect, but I warmly welcome it!

It's a great time to be a photographer / photography consumer. We get a lot of capability and 'product' for our dollar!
Looking forward to hearing your reply, Don - and the (carefully considered) contributions of others. 

Regards

PJ


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## fullstop (Sep 25, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> I’m curious...upon release of the EOS M, do you believe that APS-C DSLRs and lenses became legacy tech, supported for a time but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing?



yes, I do. it has taken a few years due to Canon's initially botched system launch of EOS M (underspecced and overpriced) - but ever since that has been corrected (M5, M6, M50) and EOS M has fully caught on, Canon Rebel-slappers and EF-S lenses are visibly receiving less and less attention from Canon. specific numbers are not publicly available, but I am sure it is fully reflected in sales (units and revenue): EOS M is eating EF-S and EOS Rebels and xxD series. 

only 7D class sits in a separate niche (more action and tele-centric users, where lenses dictate size and prize of gear). 

mirrorslappers and their lens mounts are on the decline. Ony A-mount, Nikon F, Canon EF/EF-S. just face it. they don't stop working overnight, but ... they are on their way out. they will be on life support for a while, but nothing more. 

especially for APS-C systems transition to " mirrorfree only" is in full swing and will complete quickly now. that market segment is all about 1. "decent enough IQ and functionality" in 2. as compact aa possible form factor and 3. at affordable price. Which is exactly what Canon's EOS-M and EF-M lineup perfectly deliver.


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## fullstop (Sep 25, 2018)

pj1974 said:


> I am curious as to why you believe the Rebel (XXXD) models will switch over to R mount sooner than the XD mount? (By XD mount, do you mean the 7D, 6D and 5D models/lines?) As the XXXD (Rebel) models are APS-C - I believe we will not see a 'like for like' transition to R mount. (Indeed as the 7D is also APS-C, that is the model with the most 'mirrorless question-marks' in my mind).



Rebels / xxD and EF-S lenses will not "transition" to R mount. they are being *replaced* by EOS-M bodies and EF-M lenses.

i dont think there will ever be Canon APS-C cameras with EOS R mount.
Canon has evidently decided to go with 2 mounts, 2 systems, each perfectly well chosen for the respective image circle:
APS -C = EOS M with EF-M lenses
FF = EOS R with RF lenses

"EOS 7D category" will be replaced by
1. higher-end/faster EOS M top models (APS-C) and even more so by
2. action-capable, hi-rez, well-croppable EOS R bodies )with FF sensor). Canon is just not yet able to fully deliver it (see interviews with EOS R team - sensors (readout speed) and DIGIC are not there yet. They need another generation jump.

PS. hope this qualifies as a "carefully considered" contribution.


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## AlanF (Sep 25, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> There certainly are going to be products that will be of interest. The question is, whether they will cause us to open our pocket books.
> 
> BTW when someone persists in using a derogatory term, is that not somewhat antagonistic. A word that comes to mind is "mirror slapper". I'm using a "mirror slapper" and I guess the idea is to make me feel lower as a human for continuing to be satisfied with it. What if it was your workplace and you were driving a nice older car and it was being referenced as a clunker? People who make these kinds of comments don't get very high marks from me relative to their IQ.
> 
> Jack


As soon as someone uses “mirror slapper”, I turn off.


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## Talys (Sep 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Canon Rebel-slappers and EF-S lenses are visibly receiving less and less attention from Canon. specific numbers are not publicly available, but I am sure it is fully reflected in sales (units and revenue): EOS M is eating EF-S and EOS Rebels and xxD series.



I didn't know that Canon paid attention to Canon Rebel-slappers at all. I mean, if someone wants to buy a Rebel to slap it around, I'm pretty sure Canon is ok with it! 

But to your point, the Best Sellers in Digital Cameras on Amazon are APSC DSLRs. 
https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/281052

#1 - $450 Canon T6 kit
#2 - $350 Canon T6 kit
#3 - $780 Nikon D3400 Kit
#4 - $57 Kodak point and shoot
#5 - $109 Canon point and shoot
#6 - $88 Sony point and shoot
#7 - $500 Canon T6 kit
#8 - $170 DXO One (holy cow!)
#9 - $580 Canon T6 kit
#10 - $80 Chinese waterproof point and shoot

In fact, there are no mirrorless APSC's until Sony a6000 at #16.

Sony sure has a sense of humor, because if you click it, and scroll to the description "From the Manufacturer" this is titled Sony ILCE6000L/B *Mirrorless DSLR Camera* w/ 16-50mm lens 

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Mirrorl...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q36K3YDF6ZFQWWQZW0H5

Canon's M50 ranks #24, behind the 6D Mark 2, at #22 (which is actually their best-selling full frame camera). Nikon's D850 ranks #29, and both DSLRs outsell the Sony A7III, which is ranked #32. So much for A7III dominating the full frame market.

Anyways, I know you hate them and that you wish they would go the way of telegraph machines and carrier pigeons,, but APSC DSLRs are not only alive and well, they make camera manufacturers tons of money. Because people actually want them, as can be evidenced by the board being chock full of Canon T6 kits.

In the defense of the T6, which is as boring as cameras come today, it is a very good basic camera that can take great photos; in the hands of someone with understanding of light and composition, it takes amazing photos worthy of any collection at just a few hundred dollars.


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## fullstop (Sep 25, 2018)

not disputing you can take great pictures also with Rebel mirrorslappers. But no point to buy one with EF-S lenses instead of going EOS M(50) plus EF-M today.

Also, amazon.com stats are little more than "anecdotal". It starts with amazon not being able to list products only once and assign them correct product names ...


Talys said:


> Sony sure has a sense of humor, because if you click it, and scroll to the description "From the Manufacturer" this is titled Sony ILCE6000L/B *Mirrorless DSLR Camera* ...



solely amazon's inability, not Sony's.  Some temp at amazon not able to type in correct product names.


It would be really, really interesting to see real # of units sold for each camera and lens model and per market ... but data not publicly available.


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## YuengLinger (Sep 25, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> I lack your confidence in that timeline. But hey, maybe there _will_ be a 1-series style EOS R by then.


After re-reading the HardwareZone interview with Canon general managers, I might be reassessing that timeline. Maybe they really are at a plateau with current sensor, processor, EVF, and IBIS tech. Sony might be at their own plateau also. (And is Sony really going to develop, and sustain year after year, the kind of service infrastructure expected by customers purchasing "pro" lenses and bodies?)

The managers don't look very comfortable in the interview's accompanying photograph.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 25, 2018)

Well, before Sony innovate with anything else they need to sort out their manufacturing as they are constantly underestimating demand for their A7III and availability is patchy, which is the same as happened to other models. Either that or they simply can't churn out the cameras fast enough.

That may be why Canon went for a slightly more conservative system - to ensure they could actually manufacture enough of them to keep up with demand.


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## Don Haines (Sep 25, 2018)

pj1974 said:


> Thanks for your post here, Don. I believe RF will be one part of the future (with EF in second place in terms of Canon's R&D and marketing effort, etc). I expect you meant, in time the vast majority of Canon's lens development will focus on RF (and in the eventual future, it may be exclusively RF).
> 
> Indeed, I do agree with you that it is going to be a long time before Canon ever stops making EF (or even EF-S) lenses, especially as these have their place on R mount bodies (with the adaptor/s, and EF-S useful for current 4K crop).
> 
> ...


As far as crop cameras go, some want tiny cameras like the M series, others like a more traditional form factor like the Rebels... I believe that there will continue to be a market for both. 

Since the time to transition a product from mirrored to mirrorless is when mirrorless becomes better featured and lower production cost, and that this should be on the lower speced Rebels first, I would expect to see them go mirrorless sooner....

I also expect to see some slower (and physically smaller) glass to come out for the R mount..... after all, what is the good of a small body without some small glass to go with it?


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## fullstop (Sep 25, 2018)

mirrorfree cameras can be made any size. M5 is not so different in size to smallest Rebel. If Canon brings an EOS M a bit bigger and higher positioned than M5, it may well be "large enough" to satisfy 80D / 7D users who "don't like things dwarf-sized".


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## old-pr-pix (Sep 25, 2018)

Talys said:


> I didn't know that Canon paid attention to Canon Rebel-slappers at all. I mean, if someone wants to buy a Rebel to slap it around, I'm pretty sure Canon is ok with it!
> 
> But to your point, the Best Sellers in Digital Cameras on Amazon are APSC DSLRs.
> https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/281052
> ...



CR readers tend to forget that mass-market consumers represent the majority of buyers. They tend to buy what matches the price point they are comfortable with. Big box retailers like Costco, Target, etc. don't carry EOS M series (at least any I've been in). Costco currently features 80D and T6 kits and seem to have sold-out of the pallets full of three lens SL-2 kits they had earlier in the summer. No M series to be seen. Maybe these retailers were burned with the original M model that was way overpriced, underperformed (both photographically and sales-wise) and likely large lots had to ultimately be sent back to Canon at a loss (remember the massive EOS M "fire sale")?


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## Don Haines (Sep 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> mirrorfree cameras can be made any size. M5 is not so different in size to smallest Rebel. If Canon brings an EOS M a bit bigger and higher positioned than M5, it may well be "large enough" to satisfy 80D / 7D users who "don't like things dwarf-sized".


You may be right.... perhaps I should have said mirrorless and not R mount.... but even then, I still see a lot of people who shoot with a Rebel and have a 70-200 lens. Perhaps Canon needs a 70-200 M lens?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> ...EOS M has fully caught on, Canon Rebel-slappers and EF-S lenses are visibly receiving less and less attention from Canon. specific numbers are not publicly available, *but I am sure it is fully reflected in sales (units and revenue): EOS M is eating EF-S and EOS Rebels and xxD series.*





fullstop said:


> But no point to buy one with EF-S lenses instead of going EOS M(50) plus EF-M today.
> 
> Also, amazon.com stats are little more than "anecdotal".


Fine, you're sure. Check BCN, retail sales data comprising ~50% of Japan's market. 4 of the top 5 are DSLRs, both the Kiss X9 (SL2/200D) and Kiss X9i (Rebel T7i/800D) continue to outsell the Kiss M (M50).

But I'm sure you won't allow actual data to influence your opinion, you certainly haven't let that happen yet.


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## Ian_of_glos (Sep 25, 2018)

AlanF said:


> As soon as someone uses “mirror slapper”, I turn off.


I agree completely. The term mirrorslapper is obviously derogatory and intended to make DSLR users feel inferior. There are times when I have thought about responding but luckily I have managed to resist the temptation. After all I want to respect a photographer's decision to choose a mirrorless camera in the same way as I hope they respect my decision to choose a DSLR.
Another comment I have seen recently from some commentators is that the announcement of the EOS R has rendered Canon full frame DSLRs and EF lenses obsolete. My 5D mark 4 still works perfectly, I enjoy using it and it does everything I want it to do so why should I invest in a new camera system just because Canon have one full frame mirrorless product on the market? It is possible that in a few years time the Canon full frame mirrorless offerings become so attractive that I will decide to switch but for now I am happy with what I have and would even consider extending my collection of Canon EF lenses.


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## zim (Sep 25, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Rebels / xxD and EF-S lenses will not "transition" to R mount. they are being *replaced* by EOS-M bodies and EF-M lenses.
> 
> i dont think there will ever be Canon APS-C cameras with EOS R mount.
> Canon has evidently decided to go with 2 mounts, 2 systems, each perfectly well chosen for the respective image circle:
> ...



Well in my book yes it does and not a derogatory phrase in sight 

Taking up your second point would a way round this as a filler be to offer 1.6 crop mode on FF to gain FPS and buffer. No idea what the real word AF performance is like on the current R but I'd guess that the central area (crop areas) will be more accurate than at FF edge ?


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## eosuser1234 (Sep 25, 2018)

Will there ever be a RF fisheye?


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## Durf (Sep 25, 2018)

Personally I think it's ludicrous when one implies that if you don't immediately get on the mirror-less train that you are somewhat less of a photographer because you use a DSLR with a mirror.....


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 25, 2018)

AlanF said:


> As soon as someone uses “mirror slapper”, I turn off.



While I sometimes turn off, depending on the degree, I also can have a laugh if it's not idiotic. It's a judgment call and I try to be tolerant but at some point I hope it sinks in for those posting that they may be turning people off with their negativity rather than impressing with their "brilliance".  I'll assume they care.

If "mirror slapper" is now the new loving way to describe DSLRs then it will show in the context of the commentary and I guess I will just have to get used to it since CR is not "my" forum. I'll say no more on this.


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 25, 2018)

zim said:


> Well in my book yes it does and not a derogatory phrase in sight
> 
> Taking up your second point would a way round this as a filler be to offer 1.6 crop mode on FF to gain FPS and buffer. No idea what the real word AF performance is like on the current R but I'd guess that the central area (crop areas) will be more accurate than at FF edge ?



I think it's essentially one of the rules of physics that that AF will be less sensitive on the periphery, presumably due to light fall off. However, I'm not too knowledgeable in this area. It took me some time to awaken to this reality - it's one reason AFMA needs to be done with the centre point.

Jack


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## Durf (Sep 25, 2018)

It seems there is a phase of creating division that a certain group of the human species are going through right now, even in the camera world 

Personally I am a "mirrorslapper" type of guy, I just love the sound of it.....especially in my old Pentax K1000. I remember an old Kodak Instamatic I had 40 years ago that sounded like it broke every time I took a picture with it! LOL (loved that thing!)....

I seriously believe that if I had a camera that was completely silent when I took a picture I'd toss it in the garbage!


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## stevelee (Sep 25, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I drive a "clunker". It still works great and gets me to work and back... and can carry two canoes and gear when I go on trips. No need to upgrade to anything else.... it works, it's paid for, and it does all that I need. Replacing it with something new adds zero useful functionality for me.....
> 
> The same with my cameras and lenses.... They are mirror slappers, but they work great! They do what I want, and until something better comes along that adds more functionality (in things that matter to me), I would be stupid to replace them for the sake of having something newer.
> 
> Eventually, both my car and my camera will die... then I replace them. Clunkers, mirror slappers.... it just means I didn't waste money....



I have a birthday coming up in a few days. I had planned to buy myself a 16-35mm f/4, but wound up getting it a few months back. So now I am giving thought to getting either a new car or an Apple Watch. My current car is almost eight years old, but when washed looks like new, other than a few dings. It has just about 44,000 miles on it. As I age over the next few years, I think a back-up camera will become more important. Otherwise, I want a car pretty much like the one I have. My old watch will need to be reset on Monday, when the date will read "31". After that, I'll lose interest in replacing the watch until it says November 31. I probably won't travel out of this time zone until next summer. I'm going to replace the battery in my iPhone before December 31, so that will put me in an Apple Store, and probably looking at the watches while I wait. Whatever I wind up doing, it won't be to impress anyone else. My current watch and current car may well outlive me. And I haven't had problems with people laughing at pointing at me when I'm out shooting my 6D2 over its lack on on-chip ADC, almost a whole stop less DR at ISO 100 than some other cameras, or its slapping mirror. Real life is often kinder than life in these forums.


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## Talys (Sep 25, 2018)

stevelee said:


> I have a birthday coming up in a few days.



Well, Happy Birthday!


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## stevelee (Sep 25, 2018)

Talys said:


> Well, Happy Birthday!


Thanks.


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## Talys (Sep 25, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> While I sometimes turn off, depending on the degree, I also can have a laugh if it's not idiotic. It's a judgment call and I try to be tolerant but at some point I hope it sinks in for those posting that they may be turning people off with their negativity rather than impressing with their "brilliance".  I'll assume they care.
> 
> If "mirror slapper" is now the new loving way to describe DSLRs then it will show in the context of the commentary and I guess I will just have to get used to it since CR is not "my" forum. I'll say no more on this.



I tend to laugh especially if it's idiotic and on a forum


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## zim (Sep 25, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> I think it's essentially one of the rules of physics that that AF will be less sensitive on the periphery, presumably due to light fall off. However, I'm not too knowledgeable in this area. It took me some time to awaken to this reality - it's one reason AFMA needs to be done with the centre point.
> 
> Jack



yip that's my understanding too therefore a 1.6 crop on FF may actually have a more accurate AF overall compared to current APSC?
Seems to me providing a 1.6 crop (to get to 8fps+ and AF as above) would allow Canon to use existing tech and mean no need for a 7D3. I know I'd love that! all personal hopes and wishes of course


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## pj1974 (Sep 27, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Rebels / xxD and EF-S lenses will not "transition" to R mount. they are being *replaced* by EOS-M bodies and EF-M lenses.
> 
> i dont think there will ever be Canon APS-C cameras with EOS R mount.
> Canon has evidently decided to go with 2 mounts, 2 systems, each perfectly well chosen for the respective image circle:
> ...





fullstop said:


> mirrorfree cameras can be made any size. M5 is not so different in size to smallest Rebel. If Canon brings an EOS M a bit bigger and higher positioned than M5, it may well be "large enough" to satisfy 80D / 7D users who "don't like things dwarf-sized".



Fullstop, thanks for replying.
I actually wrote: "As the XXXD (Rebel) models are APS-C - I believe we will *not *see a 'like for like' transition to R mount. "
Canon M series is not a replacement for XXD & Rebel models ... they are a different market. I own two Canon EOS M bodies (and 5 x EF-M lenses), as well as >3 Canon APS-C DSLRs, and several dedicated EF-S lenses (as well as EF lens, including L glass).

While I believe _in the long run _there will be 2 main Canon *mounts* (EOS-M and RF), I believe there *may *be a market for APS-C bodies (& lenses) which are larger than the current EOS M bodies. The EF-M lenses do not necessarily need to be different (or larger)... With their extensive market research, customer feedback, etc - Canon definitely has a good idea of this. 
The ergonomics of my EOS M5 is inferior (and quite a different shooting experience) to my EOS 80D.
Likewise, my EOS M5 (and EOS M10) with small lenses (e.g. 15-45mm or 22mm f/2) is far more portable than even a 100D with EF-S 18-55mm (which I have owned). Horses for courses (many horses, many courses).

The size and handling of a 80D is vastly different to a M5. Even my 700D is quite different to a M5, and notably different to a 100D/200D. This leads to the wide array of market segmentation possibilities. The point I was originally making, is I expect there will be some changes in models, and not a pure 'like for like' from DSLRs to mirrorless, in both APS-C and FF sensor sizes. I think the customers in the market for a "7D" type body in mirrorless form, will find a model that (mostly) fits their needs, but it may be more different as a mirrorless.

These are exciting times to be a photographer. In any mount, for any sensor size, and in both DSLR and mirrorless markets. Thanks Canon for being a company that develops and delivers great products well, so we (well, many of us) can enjoy capturing images (photos as well as videos) and sharing these with others.

PJ


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## pj1974 (Sep 27, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> As far as crop cameras go, some want tiny cameras like the M series, others like a more traditional form factor like the Rebels... I believe that there will continue to be a market for both.
> 
> Since the time to transition a product from mirrored to mirrorless is when mirrorless becomes better featured and lower production cost, and that this should be on the lower speced Rebels first, I would expect to see them go mirrorless sooner....
> 
> I also expect to see some slower (and physically smaller) glass to come out for the R mount..... after all, what is the good of a small body without some small glass to go with it?



Hi Don

Yes, I understand the logic you are presenting. Though I actually believe certain *features & technology- *at specific 'levels' may mean that these come out in higher end mirrorless cameras first, and then trickle down to lower models later (in both EOS-M and RF mounts).

Some historical comparisons / examples:

the first DSLRs were not 'base' models, but more intermediate / pro level. (The XXXD and XXXXD models came soem years after a number of XXD / XD models existed).
DPAF came out in the 70D (rather than the XXXD / XXXXD)
the first lens to use USM was the EF 300mm f/2.8 L

So while the EOS-M mount / APS-C mirrorless bodies predate RF mount / EOS-R FF bodies, I believe that we may see some technology being present in the current EOS R body (and yet to be released / announced RF mount bodies) - that will transition down to more sophisticated (& potentially larger) EOS-M bodies. (There is overlap in part of what we are saying, e.g. that there is a market for larger XXXD / XXD sized digital camera bodies).

I also agree with you that I expect to see smaller glass (particularly more f/4 and possibly even f/5.6 lenses coming out for RF mount). I believe that's a good thing too, as well as the larger / amazing glass Canon is showing is possible for RF!

Good times to be a photographer! 

Paul


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## Don Haines (Sep 27, 2018)

?


pj1974 said:


> Fullstop, thanks for replying.
> I actually wrote: "As the XXXD (Rebel) models are APS-C - I believe we will *not *see a 'like for like' transition to R mount. "
> Canon M series is not a replacement for XXD & Rebel models ... they are a different market. I own two Canon EOS M bodies (and 5 x EF-M lenses), as well as >3 Canon APS-C DSLRs, and several dedicated EF-S lenses (as well as EF lens, including L glass).
> 
> ...


I tend to agree with you.... in the long term, the M mount and the RF mount...

Tiny crop cameras, M mount.... no question about it....
Smaller FF cameras, definitely the RF mount.....
Larger FF cameras, over time I think more and more will transit to RF mount, but there may still remain a few EF mount cameras, even in 10 years time....

The interesting possibility that I have been pondering for quite some time is, is the crop rebel going to be replaced by the FF rebel? If you imagine an R mount crop camera, what does it really take to make it a FF camera? All you have to do is replace the sensor.... all the other electronics remains the same.... Now wouldn't that bust the bargain camera marketplace wide open


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## pj1974 (Sep 27, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> ?
> 
> I tend to agree with you.... in the long term, the M mount and the RF mount...
> 
> ...



Yes, will be interesting if the future will contain more 'larger' M mount, OR - yes as you suggest "a crop sensored R Mount".
That the EOS R camera came out with the ability to use EF-S lenses (via the adapter) was something I did not expect...
But it actually has me excited it can. Particularly as I have a few EF-S lenses I love, and would serve well for photography (albeit at 12MP), as well as the current 4K video crop. 

So I do appreciate, that Canon may have looked at the option of placing a APS-C sensor in an R mount mirrorless camera body. If that's the 7D, or a 'Rebel FF' (or both) - remains to be seen.

Cheers,

PJ


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