# first pic of canon mirrorless?



## raydream (Jul 20, 2012)

saw it on facebook, could it be the real pic or photoshop?


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## Minnesota Nice (Jul 20, 2012)

I seriously hope it doesn't look like that...


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## EchoLocation (Jul 20, 2012)

the angles of the right side of the hot shoe and left side look a little funny to me, as do the angles of the top left and top right of the camera. i guess one side(our left) is sloping down more than the right. If it's a mock up on Photoshop it's pretty good. But i'm not convinced.
For not being retro or a classic rangefinder-esque look, i think it actually isn't that fugly. 
But unless it is APS-C or FF, I won't even consider it. If it is FF I will probably pre order it(my dream.)


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 20, 2012)

EchoLocation said:


> the angles of the right side of the hot shoe and left side look a little funny to me, as do the angles of the top left and top right of the camera. i guess one side(our left) is sloping down more than the right. If it's a mock up on Photoshop it's pretty good. But i'm not convinced.
> For not being retro or a classic rangefinder-esque look, i think it actually isn't that fugly.
> But unless it is APS-C or FF, I won't even consider it. If it is FF I will probably pre order it(my dream.)


The hot shoe certainly looks photoshopped, but it could just be from a poor job of editing the image to remove background.
I like the looks of it myself, but then, I go back to the days of the Canon 7 rangefinders, and it is cleaner than they were. 
I'm started to get interested.


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## wickidwombat (Jul 20, 2012)

i hope it has an electronic viewfinderdoesnt look like it from the pic

from that pic it looks like the sensor is 2x crop? more like a nikon1 sort of deal

an f2 43mm pancake would be pretty sweet if its as sharp as the f2.8 pancake is wide open
of course with a sensor of that size its doF is going to me more like f2.8 anyway so i wonder how similar those lenses are

if its that small it would be handy to have stashed in the bag with an EF adaptor which hopefully would give full control of the lens unlike the EF to otherbrand adaptors


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## peederj (Jul 20, 2012)

The lens would be an "EF-M" (i.e. mirrorless mount, presumably incompatible with EF and EF-S) f/2 22mm focal length with a 43mm filter thread. STM for focus-by-wire like the EF 40mm f/2.8 pancake.

I am uninterested myself. What I want is a decrippled 700D with no aliasing and moire on the video and 60fps/1080p. Unless this thing sports better video than a hacked GH2, in which case, I am interested provided the EF adapter is under $150 and has full functionality.


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## wickidwombat (Jul 20, 2012)

peederj said:


> EF adapter is under $150 and has full functionality.


.

the camera will live or die on this basis IMO


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## kennephoto (Jul 20, 2012)

I kinda like it, but I think I'm with everyone else and I'd love it to be FF or APS-C and f2 or faster lenses I'd be sold.


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## J (Jul 20, 2012)

22mm x 1.6 APS-C = 35.2mm FOV
22mm x 1.85 G1X = 40.7mm FOV

Honestly, I'd be happy with either. ;D


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## Vaz (Jul 20, 2012)

looks ugly


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## dolina (Jul 20, 2012)

I hope it is priced competitively to 43rd, Nikon, Pentax and Sony.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 20, 2012)

*Leaked mirrorless image? Engadget*

Mirrorless EOS with EF-M mount & 22mm STM pancake?:

http://m.engadget.com/2012/07/20/canon-eos-m-possible-leak/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


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## jueming23 (Jul 20, 2012)

oh shit


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## DArora (Jul 20, 2012)

SLR Lounge *mentions* that it has no EVF.. if true, it will be a big bummer. :-X


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## pakosouthpark (Jul 20, 2012)

joke?


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## RLPhoto (Jul 20, 2012)

I think this is pretty awesome. Aps-c and a 35mm f/2 FOV in a tiny body. That's all I need canon! Now if it's 599$ with body and 25mm f/2, I'll buy it at launch but I doubt that price tag knowing canon.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 20, 2012)

Looks like being very similar to the Panasonic GF1 and GX1 in size and style.

A good thing. IMHO.

I like the knurled ring around the shutter button... looks like an input scroller!, could be a nice design touch.

Would hate to lose the EOS control dial though, perhaps it's on the back vertically (like the old EOS iX?)

EF / EF-s lenses? APS-C sensor? On chip phase detection AF?

Could be awesome.

Full frame would be too big in my opinion. Handling seems very along formula that has been successful for every other mirrorless manufacturer (PENS, GF's, 1's etc)

Can't wait until monday for some solid info!


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## Mongoose (Jul 20, 2012)

It's not that bad, but I'm going to need to see more. Lets just hope it has a big sensor, & a cheap EF-mount adapter.


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## traveller (Jul 20, 2012)

No EVF, no built in flash. Looks very 1st generation mirrorless (e.g. GF1, EP-1) ; why can't Canon learn from others rather than having to reinvent the wheel? 

This line of cameras will live or die based upon the range of EF-M lenses; the 22mm f/2 STM looks like a great start (assuming image quality is up-to-par), but it will need a lot more in the same vein and quickly in order to succeed. 

Any guesses as to what the strange device on the front right of the camera is (above what is presumably the lens release button)? Just a IR remote receiver/self timer LED?


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## Tan (Jul 20, 2012)

Ugh...ly! I certainly hope this is not the final look... 
But still, I'm really qurious to see the specs.


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## Hoppa (Jul 20, 2012)

I hope this is a fake. I can't imagine Canon bringing out a camera in this styledominated market looking like this. For example, the colourdifference between body and lens is awful. It looks like a bad photoshop.


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## mb66energy (Jul 20, 2012)

The only things I am interested in:

- image quality
- image quality
- image quality
- manual mode including video (add video to my existing EOS bodies)
- availability of an full featured adaptor (to use existing EF/EF-S lenses)
- APS-C sized sensor (to have 16mm equiv UW for photography and video)

Who matters if it is retro or not, if the design is good or bad. It should work
to achieve the IMAGES I IMAGINE because the camera is WITH ME ...


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## moreorless (Jul 20, 2012)

DArora said:


> SLR Lounge *mentions* that it has no EVF.. if true, it will be a big bummer. :-X



The rumours going back months have suggested a budget model first and potentially a higher end one with EVF latter so I'm not supprized.


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## gn100 (Jul 20, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> I think this is pretty awesome. Aps-c and a 35mm f/2 FOV in a tiny body. That's all I need canon! Now if it's 599$ with body and 25mm f/2, I'll buy it at launch but I doubt that price tag knowing canon.



Not sure it is APS-C ....... its an EF-M lens ..... probably the same sensor as the G1X...... so a 1.85 crop factor


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## hollybush (Jul 20, 2012)

It certainly won't be called "M", since it's a more direct competitor to Leica's system than the Olympus OM was back in the 70s, and Leica gave them huge grief over their original name of "Olympus M". If the Japanese text says the name "M" is part of the rumor, this alone tends to discredit it.

As for the ugliness, it sure is, but there's no evidence either Canon or Nikon understand how much damage the ugliness of their cameras is doing to their businesses.


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## 8minutestorm (Jul 20, 2012)

looks nice!


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## moreorless (Jul 20, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> I think this is pretty awesome. Aps-c and a 35mm f/2 FOV in a tiny body. That's all I need canon! Now if it's 599$ with body and 25mm f/2, I'll buy it at launch but I doubt that price tag knowing canon.



Indeed, I'm supprized that no system besides m43 has managed to offer a relatively compact prime in this range with f/2 or better.


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## eosbit (Jul 20, 2012)

hollybush said:


> It certainly won't be called "M", since it's a more direct competitor to Leica's system than the Olympus OM was back in the 70s, and Leica gave them huge grief over their original name of "Olympus M". If the Japanese text says the name "M" is part of the rumor, this alone tends to discredit it.



Look again, it says EOS M on the top....


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## K-amps (Jul 20, 2012)

People can photoshop things... then again it is not as easy (or worthwhile) to do something this elaborate, and high res. Fakes are usually low res where the cloned borders are not easily discernable. 

I think it's real...

(It's sometimes the ones who don't know photoshop that well, that say, "Oh thats photoshopped"...)


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## Stuart (Jul 20, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF-M 

Why would canon reuse an old part number?


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## eosbit (Jul 20, 2012)

Stuart said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF-M
> 
> Why would canon reuse an old part number?



If they own the trademark on it, then why not? It fits, and they don't have to make up a new numbering system.


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## funkboy (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm guessing G1X sensor so they can keep the lenses nice & small like μ4/3. With a 1.85x crop the pictured 22 becomes a 40mm pancake...

I'd also assume that they didn't include a built-in finder so that they could keep it as small & inexpensive as possible, and so that they can sell expensive accessory finders to fools like us that will buy them <grin>.

If they release a luminous standard zoom like a 24-105 (equiv) f/2.8 IS or something then I'm all over this thing. For me, good small lenses for the system are the deal maker/breaker. The glass has to be at least in the same ballpark as my Fuji X10 (28-112 f/2.0-2.8 ). If a boring f/3.5-f/5.6 kit zoom is the only option besides this little prime then I'm certainly not going to be among the early adopters, especially in light of Panasonic's impressive new compacts. Manual focus assist is also going to have a lot to do with my decision.

Now that I think about it, this puts Canon in a very interesting position. Previously, they never had to release roadmaps as their lens stable was complete & just about updating things from time to time. Now, if they want people to buy into this system they had better give a preview of what's coming down the pipe in the next year or two, just like all the other newcomers to the mirrorless market.


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## seta666 (Jul 20, 2012)

hollybush said:


> As for the ugliness, it sure is, but there's no evidence either Canon or Nikon understand how much damage the ugliness of their cameras is doing to their businesses.



It does not look ugly to me, it looks like a modern camera should look
If you preffer a retro-like look for your cameras there is the Fuji X100; kind of camera that looks like a rangefinder but does not behave like that. Useless AF and even worst MF; I had it for a month and then sold it 

Any rangefinder like camera should have rangefinder viewfinder and proper mechanical MF


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## hollybush (Jul 20, 2012)

seta666 said:


> If you preffer a retro-like look for your cameras there is the Fuji X100



Now _that's_ ugly. There are modern cameras that aren't retro or ugly, some of them even Japanese.


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## richy (Jul 20, 2012)

Canon already had an EF-M so it is possible for them to use EOS-M or similar. 

I would love for it to look more retro but that wouldn't stop me buying it. As mentiond above, image quality and compatability with EOS lenses will be the primary factors. I would love for it to be full frame but it seems far more likely to be aps-c. Focussing speed and accuracy will be important also. I don't pretend to believe my needs will mimic everyones but it would be nice to see the camera deliver solid IQ, even in relatively low light. 
I guess it depends where canon pitch it, probably initially towards the middle of the consumer price band maybe with another later model towards the higher end. If its full frame (remembering cost savings from the lack of a prism) they could pitch it around $1600 and I'd love one. Coupled to a 24-105 f4 is it would make a great family camera without as much bulk as a 5d3 adds to that equation. As much as their is a huge consumer market, there are also quite a few pros with nice glass collections that they would like to use on a mirrorless canon and get corresponding solid results. If canon can build one or two cameras that can deliver to both groups or one each, they would have a lot of happy folks out here. 
What really sucks is I am likely to be well out of cellphone range when the announcement comes lol.


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## richy (Jul 20, 2012)

hollybush said:


> seta666 said:
> 
> 
> > If you preffer a retro-like look for your cameras there is the Fuji X100
> ...



Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder! For some reason I like the Nikon fe2 and the bessa 4's. The leica r8 is also pretty funky. 
I'd have bought the fuji xpro but I'm not confident in the lens range nor the af. When I get chance I will rent one, but I get the feeling it's not the type of camera aimed at taking pictures of kids flying about.


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## Rat (Jul 20, 2012)

EF- and EF-S-lenses have a flange focal distance of 44mm. I don't see space in this camera for such a big ffd, meaning an EF-to-EF-M-converter would have to contain optics, if it is at all possible. I'd say EF-lenses are pretty much not going to be usable.


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## TTMartin (Jul 20, 2012)

Rat said:


> EF- and EF-S-lenses have a flange focal distance of 44mm. I don't see space in this camera for such a big ffd, meaning an EF-to-EF-M-converter would have to contain optics, if it is at all possible. I'd say EF-lenses are pretty much not going to be usable.



The opposite is true, the camera's native flange focal distance will be less than the EF lenses so you can use an optic-less adapter. It's when the native flange focal distance is greater than what the lens is designed for that you need optics in the adapter. 

The EF flange focal distance is greater than FD flange focal distance so you need optics in the adapter.
The EF flange focal distance is less than the Nikon flange focal distance so you don't need optics in the adapter.


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## TTMartin (Jul 20, 2012)

Stuart said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF-M
> 
> Why would canon reuse an old part number?



I have a Canon S100 that was purchased in May of 2000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Digital_IXUS

Why would Canon reuse the same camera name?


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## TTMartin (Jul 20, 2012)

raydream said:


> saw it on facebook, could it be the real pic or photoshop?



Photoshop.

No built in flash, but, has a hotshoe? 

Is that a doorless CF card on the side?

22mm lens with APS-C?


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 20, 2012)

UPDATED PIC OF REAR...

No EOS command mode dial.... not a biggie I suppose, I just hope it isn't all touchscreen.


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## mb66energy (Jul 20, 2012)

TTMartin said:


> [...]
> 
> Photoshop.
> 
> ...



No built in flash (perhaps it comes right from the hot shoe?) means: hot shoe is needed to use an external flash without wireless control.

From the markings on the door it seems to be a rubber door for the connectors (USB, HDMI, 3.5mm microphone jack, whatsoever)

22mm on APS-C are 35.2mm on FF - that is logic.

Just my opinion ... Best, Michael


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## marekjoz (Jul 20, 2012)

That's cool, convenient, small and has a big sensor. I like it.


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## maxxevv (Jul 20, 2012)

Think its a pretty decent looking thing. I do like it. 

But what's most crucial to me is the picture quality. QUALITY. 

From the latest picts, judging by the flange size relative to the filter ring 43mm and relative to the sensor, looks indeed to be APS-C sized sensor. 












As for the part regarding no build-in flash but flash mount part ... neither does the 5D, 1D cameras ...


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## marekjoz (Jul 20, 2012)

I hope we'll be positively amazed by video quality from this camera.


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## mb66energy (Jul 20, 2012)

After measuring the data from the pic (53mm max. internal mount diameter) I see

21.5 mm sensor width
1.45 aspect ratio

=> APS-C

... if I haven't made any mistakes, the images are real and the visible sensor area is nearly the imaging area.

One weird thing: the mount is very similar to the standard EF mount but ... it is rotated by roughly 15 degree counter clockwise ... so the adapter will never be a standard extension tube.


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## yli (Jul 20, 2012)

not as I expected. If ef-m is compatible with ef lens, I will consider to get one.


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## seta666 (Jul 20, 2012)

Well, from the new pictures it seems an APS-C sensor indeed
For me the omision of flash is great, I preffer no flash than a useless flash; anyway, there is the 270EX which is pretty good and very pocketeable. I guess they will release an even smaller one for trhese cameras

If it does have a 3.5 shutter cable release and keeps the silent live view (I mainly shoot macro) I am in; it would be my second body for macro (first is 5D mkII) and would be the only camera I would take to the street when travelling

The only thing I fear is the sensor IQ is going to be well behind NEX cameras


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## mathino (Jul 20, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> Think its a pretty decent looking thing. I do like it.
> 
> But what's most crucial to me is the picture quality. QUALITY.
> 
> ...



Looks to me like this will be entry level model. I hope that there will be some more advanced one. But APS-C sensor size is very welcome. Maybe Ill trade my 450D for something like this after I get FF


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## funkboy (Jul 20, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> I just hope it isn't all touchscreen.



touchscreen is a lot better than no controls at all...


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## marekjoz (Jul 20, 2012)

funkboy said:


> paul13walnut5 said:
> 
> 
> > I just hope it isn't all touchscreen.
> ...



How great would be if this toy might have a dual mode: active, ordinary one and passive like in Kindle for work in the bright day.


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## quartzie (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm afraid this one will die on controls.

The blurred shot of the back suggests there is a thin clickable wheel around the fourway buttons - the same one I found utterly unreliable and clumsy to use on the G1 series. If this turns out to be true, the camera will be completely useless to anyone with bigger hands used to handling 40D/7D/5D+ bodies. (Doesn't Canon do product testing outside Japan as well?)

Other than that, most EOS users will be jealous of what appears to be the focus assist lamp on the mirrorless... Why can't Canon copy at least that feature from Nikon?


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## marekjoz (Jul 20, 2012)

quartzie said:


> I'm afraid this one will die on controls.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Other than that, most EOS users will be jealous of what appears to be the focus assist lamp on the mirrorless... Why can't Canon copy at least that feature from Nikon?



"It's AF capabilities don't require additional focus assist. The photographed subject will always subconsciously enter into the DOF. This is the first camera to move the earth as even buildings and trees will enter into the focus. Proudly presenting the first camera designed with Chuck Norris"


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## Rat (Jul 20, 2012)

TTMartin said:


> Rat said:
> 
> 
> > EF- and EF-S-lenses have a flange focal distance of 44mm. I don't see space in this camera for such a big ffd, meaning an EF-to-EF-M-converter would have to contain optics, if it is at all possible. I'd say EF-lenses are pretty much not going to be usable.
> ...


You're of course right. EF-M-lenses will not be usable on EF-bodies, but it'll work the other way round. 

*hunts down the coffee pot*


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## DJL329 (Jul 20, 2012)

So, where's the photo of it attached to an 800L? :


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## Quackator (Jul 20, 2012)

Looking at the diameter of this f:2 lens front element in relation 
to the flange diameter....... I guess we're up to extremely fast 
and still compact glass in the future, maybe.

If video quality in Full HD is good and allows full manual exposure, 
I'm certainly in for one.

MQ


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## alfeel (Jul 20, 2012)

nice consumer grade camera, but imho not for pros (unless with some stellar picture quality and ISO performance), look so similar to nikon j1/v1, but as all we have seen nikon drew a blank with those two models. I don't know why canon doesn't look at what others do before starting to make a new camera.. 

I'll wait for the full specs hoping in a top notch autofocus at least..


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## treyconnally (Jul 20, 2012)

If it really host the barrage of EF lenses I will own this camera. I never thought I'd say that, but having all this glass it'd be so fun to be able to put that on such a small camera on stay a little more discrete when shooting. 

A Pancake 40 would look perfect on it.


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## mb66energy (Jul 20, 2012)

alfeel said:


> nice consumer grade camera, but imho not for pros (unless with some stellar picture quality and ISO performance), look so similar to nikon j1/v1, but as all we have seen nikon drew a blank with those two models. I don't know why canon doesn't look at what others do before starting to make a new camera..
> 
> I'll wait for the full specs hoping in a top notch autofocus at least..



I don't think that J1/V1 from Nikon are comparable to the EOS M due to their sensor size. With adaptor I can use my lens range as I used it with my 40Ds - the 10-22 will stay a 16-35 equiv lens. I don't want to buy into different systems except perhaps FF - and I collected my lenses according to that change.

Let's see the EOS M as an intelligent back cap for my 10-22 that I use very seldom but it would be great to have fast access to its focal range with an EOS M attached to it.


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## Dylan777 (Jul 20, 2012)

Vaz said:


> looks ugly



+1.....I was hoping "classic" style. This is more like P&S body style. I guess, no mirrorless body for me.


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## quartzie (Jul 20, 2012)

treyconnally said:


> If it really host the barrage of EF lenses I will own this camera. I never thought I'd say that, but having all this glass it'd be so fun to be able to put that on such a small camera on stay a little more discrete when shooting.



I doubt that with most *L*enses attached this will be enough to stay discrete, save for shutter noise.


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## maxxevv (Jul 20, 2012)

mb66energy said:


> I don't think that J1/V1 from Nikon are comparable to the EOS M due to their sensor size. With adaptor I can use my lens range as I used it with my 40Ds - the 10-22 will stay a 16-35 equiv lens. I don't want to buy into different systems except perhaps FF - and I collected my lenses according to that change.
> 
> Let's see the EOS M as an intelligent back cap for my 10-22 that I use very seldom but it would be great to have fast access to its focal range with an EOS M attached to it.



That I agree. It would be a very appealing camera to existing EOS lens owners due to the equivalent DOF and focal length with a EF/EF-s adaptor. 

As for your question on compatibility, if its compatible with EF, EF-S should not be an issue. The EF-S focussing plane distance is still further than the flange distance for mirrorless systems since it requires a clearance for the mirrorbox in APS-C/EF-S cameras. 

So, if its designed as as EF mount adapter and works with the focusing distance of the EF lenses, it will be able to clear EF-S too.


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## Christian_Stella (Jul 20, 2012)

Finally a second camera I can just grab and slip into my coat pocket, then slip a hotshoe viewfinder into my other coat pocket. Then stash an external flash in my wife's purse, then sling a dslr bag around my neck and keep an EF adaptor and some of my EF lenses in that. On second thought, I'll just bring my 5d3. 

Judging by the lack of buttons, this is surely for consumers, so no built-in flash seems like a mistake.


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## ssrdd (Jul 20, 2012)

I can guess its same old aps-c 18mp sensor, either from 7d or t4i.
same old candy wrapped in new shape. Canon is playing this kind of a game from couple of years.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 20, 2012)

@funkboy



> touchscreen is a lot better than no controls at all...



True up to a point. However, I lusted after a Panasonic GF1, but never remotely considered a GF2 or GF3 for precisely this reason.

@mb66energy


> ... if I haven't made any mistakes, the images are real and the visible sensor area is nearly the imaging area.
> 
> One weird thing: the mount is very similar to the standard EF mount but ... it is rotated by roughly 15 degree counter clockwise ... so the adapter will never be a standard extension tube.



Would never be a standard extension tube in any case, for EF lenses apertures and focus to work you would need some comms between the body and camera. The ribbon can follow any path it wants between the two ends, so the rotation is hardly a big deal (so long as the adapter rotates the lens back by the same so that the 
focus scale, switches and bayonet petaled lens hoods stay in the correct final position) an extension tube is generally designed to permit closer focusing, an adapter is generally designed to retain regular focus ranges of the adapted lens.

That said, it could be a great camera for adapting antique or obselete optics to!

@treyconnally


> A Pancake 40 would look perfect on it.



That may depend on the adapter! If that is, an adapter is required.


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## Lee Jay (Jul 20, 2012)

Great...another "me too" in the already-saturated and largely-ignored MILC segment. Must not be much room to be innovative in this area. Too big to be pocketable, too small to be powerful. Snore!


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## AvTvM (Jul 20, 2012)

WOW, finally a Canon lens cap WITH additional inner grips ... like Nikon and almost evryone else has them for decades. Wonder, whether it will be included with the lens or an optional item like lens hoods ...


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## quartzie (Jul 20, 2012)

ssrdd said:


> I can guess its same old aps-c 18mp sensor, either from 7d or t4i.
> same old candy wrapped in new shape. Canon is playing this kind of a game from couple of years.



I'm guessing T4i sensor since they bothered with the on-chip phase detect AF. Having seen T4i's live view AF performance, though, I doubt it will be even in the ballpark of V1/NEX/GFx unless Canon has been seriously hiding things from EOS users these 5 years.


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## kennephoto (Jul 20, 2012)

I don't know about the rest of you but this is gonna be a long weekend! I can't wait for Monday!!! I wanna know the truth about this thing now!


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## 7enderbender (Jul 20, 2012)

This is a joke, is it?

And to me it proves that what I really want is to a) free up some major cash one day to buy the M9 and a few lenses or b) waiting for somebody to finally come up with a M9-like rangefinder with full frame sensor for half the price

...or c) finally set up a darkroom in the basement and go medium format film

Certainly not interested in this one if it materializes like that. It looks like a 1980s point and shoot of the worst kind.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 20, 2012)

I like the looks. Simple, and friendly. If the touchscreen is as good as the T4i, I have a winner in my books. It even has a fast prime, which is awesome. 8)


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## Rick Massie (Jul 20, 2012)

seta666 said:


> Well, from the new pictures it seems an APS-C sensor indeed
> For me the omision of flash is great, I preffer no flash than a useless flash; anyway, there is the 270EX which is pretty good and very pocketeable. I guess they will release an even smaller one for trhese cameras
> 
> If it does have a 3.5 shutter cable release and keeps the silent live view (I mainly shoot macro) I am in; it would be my second body for macro (first is 5D mkII) and would be the only camera I would take to the street when travelling
> ...



If that new lens is real, you'll be happy to have another macro lens option! I wonder if what the Maximum Magnification ratio is?


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## Dylan777 (Jul 20, 2012)

Christian_Stella said:


> Finally a second camera I can just grab and slip into my coat pocket, then slip a hotshoe viewfinder into my other coat pocket. Then stash an external flash in my wife's purse, then sling a dslr bag around my neck and keep an EF adaptor and some of my EF lenses in that. On second thought, I'll just bring my 5d3.
> 
> Judging by the lack of buttons, this is surely for consumers, so no built-in flash seems like a mistake.



+1...5D III with 40mm pancake. Done.


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## dadgummit (Jul 20, 2012)

If it has a 1.6x sensor and has an available adapter that controls EF lenses I will absolutely buy one. The only thing I am worried about with the EF adapter is lenses like the newer 70-200 2.8 IS II will suck the poor battery dry in no time at all. there is just no room in that thing for a battery big enough. I am afraid that a EF to EF-m adapter will disable IS and/or AF (I hope I am wrong!).


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## EOBeav (Jul 20, 2012)

This is the camera that the Canon community has been holding their breath for?


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## seta666 (Jul 20, 2012)

Rick Massie said:


> If that new lens is real, you'll be happy to have another macro lens option! I wonder if what the Maximum Magnification ratio is?


That lens is not macro, it just says minimum focusing distance; magnification will be 1:5 or less


----------



## dadgummit (Jul 20, 2012)

EOBeav said:


> This is the camera that the Canon community has been holding their breath for?



Not holding my breath but it would be nice to have a nice light + compact camera to take with me and the family at the fair/ theme parks etc that can double as a back up body for my large collection of EF lenses. If I did not already have so much invested in Canon it may not interest me at all given the other excellent cameras already available in this segment.


----------



## crasher8 (Jul 20, 2012)

hotshoe no popup? fake.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 20, 2012)

Like the fake olympus PEN?


----------



## Gman (Jul 20, 2012)

Hmm, Canon's answer to the Oly OMD EM5?
Of course that's an image knocked up in Photoshop or Illustrator from the snapshots seen below it, well done too. Low res shots possibly real and taken with spy specs hence low res and poor quality.

Very tempting especially if they have kept to a Gxx type swivel screen. If they have then I'll have one despite the need to carry a small zoom in my bag as well. If they the swivel screen then it's possibly the death knell for the G series, if not then maybe we'll still see a G12 successor at Photokina??? Mind you if it's the same price as the Oly OMD then it's gonna work out expensive if one has to buy a zoom as well, whereas at least the Oly kit comes with a 17 - 100mm zoom for 1300€. Decisions, decisions!
Like has already been said it's going to be a long weekend.


----------



## mattbru (Jul 20, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> WOW, finally a Canon lens cap WITH additional inner grips ... like Nikon and almost evryone else has them for decades. Wonder, whether it will be included with the lens or an optional item like lens hoods ...



THIS is the biggest news for me. Yay for logical design.


----------



## MK5GTI (Jul 20, 2012)

i have a feeling that Canon will also introduce another body with this on monday, just like Nikon did with their 1 series.

the upper right thing, could it be possibly a LED flash?


----------



## Rick Massie (Jul 20, 2012)

seta666 said:


> Rick Massie said:
> 
> 
> > If that new lens is real, you'll be happy to have another macro lens option! I wonder if what the Maximum Magnification ratio is?
> ...



Oops, guess I was reading too much into the word "Macro" on the lens, haha. I was hoping that meant at least 1:2. Oh well.


----------



## Caps18 (Jul 20, 2012)

It looks like what I would have expected. I like the look, and wish the G1X would be similar. (no viewfinder, thinner, but with a little flash)

I also wonder why the lens glass isn't bigger to let in more light... I don't care about weight, but size and speed are two big ones.


----------



## leonedolci (Jul 20, 2012)

the overall design and finish looks not so expensive. I see that as a good news. Too much premium hype on these small cameras. Like Olympus EM5, the price is ridiculous.

I hope this will be the 650D sensor, 18MP, APS, enough for me. Throw in a decent attachable EVF and a couple of usable zoom, i'm sold.

I desperately need a light camera for hiking around. FF sensor in 5D2 is great, but the lenses are killing my shoulders.

PS. pls don't make all those 0.95 non-sense lens. I am buying into these light cameras for the form factor and light weight. Primes good @ F2, zooms good @ F4, enough.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 20, 2012)

hear hear.

My only reservation is that the rear pic looks more like my girlfriends ixus!

If a g powershot can be laid out like an EOS, then why not the mirrorless? Maybe there will be one aimed at powershot level users and one aimed at enthusiasts.

I can't see there being an M9 beater in the pipeline for some reason....


----------



## Lee Jay (Jul 20, 2012)

mattbru said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > WOW, finally a Canon lens cap WITH additional inner grips ... like Nikon and almost evryone else has them for decades. Wonder, whether it will be included with the lens or an optional item like lens hoods ...
> ...



I absolutely hate center-pinch lens caps.


----------



## EOBeav (Jul 20, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> I can't see there being an M9 beater in the pipeline for some reason....



Ha, you mean you don't think we'll see a monochrome-only version of this camera any time soon?


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 20, 2012)

Good point. Or a 40k safari version...

I don't know if the folk who want a compact interchangable EF compatable camera with a larger sensor are having a laugh to themselves or not.

They would seem to be mutually exclusive objectives.

Anyway, I half to three quarters suspect that a lot of the folk buying leicas aren't really primarily motivated by photographic ends. I have a quartz Tag Heuer and a chrono Omega. The Omega isn't anywhere as reliably accurate as the Tag, which is also far easier to live with in other ways. But I didn't really buy the Omega just to tell me the time...


----------



## Phenix205 (Jul 20, 2012)

It'd better have good video features. It'd be interesting to see how it looks like when a huge L lens is mounted with an adapter. The camera itself is definitely not among the best looking ones on the market. Maybe the "pro" version will look better.


----------



## getalife (Jul 20, 2012)

The lens cap is where the spotlight is on.


----------



## JBL (Jul 20, 2012)

Some more photos care of www.canonpricewatch.com


----------



## maxxevv (Jul 20, 2012)

Interesting, from these picts, seems to be a pretty compact setup. Barely 80mm in height... ?


----------



## Flake (Jul 20, 2012)

My take on this is that it's a very strange animal. Camera strap lugs the like of which I've never seen on a Canon camera, they've always been the type which the strap threads through, they are on the G series, and they are on the EOS DSLRs I'm suspicious of this because it's nothing like previous models.

The sensor looks tiny, I hope Canon haven't tried to copy Nikons failed V1 camera or they'll find themselves in the same boat, the G1X will kill this camera dead if the sensor is smaller and the price is anything like similar.

I'm suspicious of the very blurry shot of the rear of the camera there are only three buttons surrounding the control dials, on the G series there are four. There's no 'review' button at all, and no direct print button which for some reason Canon seems to be in love with. No PASM dial, there is a dial, but with no markings that would have to be the aperture dial? 
Worst of all though, where is the power button? All the G series have the on/off behind the shutter release, how would this camera turn on & off without it?
Then there's the blue print on the button & the control wheel, this is not present on current G series, although it is printed on the body for erase and skip functions. The 'Canon' logo at the bottom of the screen also fades to blue.
Take a look at the symbols on the control wheel, although this at a casual glance appears to be a standard dial as used on powershots they are not the same the centre should read 'func.' above 'set'. Left side is a flower symbol above 'MF', left is a lightning flash, top is ISO, bottom 'disp'. There are slight variations but this image looks nothing like those.

Take a look at the hotshoe, there is only one pin in the centre, where are the other four surrounding pins? The stop lug on the right side is present, but the left one is not

For those reasons I don't believe this is a genuine image of a camera to come. I hope it's not genuine! I don't want it to be genuine, I had been hoping this would be a kind of bridge between the high end G series and the EOS range, not this!

I believe that this image is a photoshop job using a Canon S100 as the base, this would explain the button layout, and the messing about with the shutter release area has removed the PASM dial, and the power switch. The Canon logo is in exactly the same place, and the 'EOS' logo where the 'S100' should be. Every EOS camera carries the model number with it, 'EOS600D' none of them have EOS in isolation.

I'm calling it a fake!


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

what a boring looking little camera.

after all this time i hoped canon would impress me. :
and i don´t speak about the look only... i could live with the design.
but no electronic viewfinder? come on canon. 



flake said:


> Take a look at the hotshoe, there is only one pin in the centre, where are the other four surrounding pins? The stop lug on the right side is present, but the left one is not



clean your glasses.
it seems to have 2 contacts more then a normal hotshoe.
hope for an EVF?











> For those reasons I don't believe this is a genuine image of a camera to come. !



it is genuine.


----------



## adhocphotographer (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm interested, let see what the details specs are!


----------



## infared (Jul 20, 2012)

Design by Committee :-(


----------



## DarkKnightNine (Jul 20, 2012)

Vaz said:


> looks ugly




I agree. This camera is hideously fugly!
After years of sitting on the sidelines watching the mirrorless camera market develop, this is the best that Canon's design dept. could come up with to make their grand entry?!


----------



## Flake (Jul 20, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> what a boring looking little camera.
> 
> after all this time i hoped canon would impress me. :
> and i don´t speak about the look only... i could live with the design.
> ...



They're not contacts, they're crosshead screws, a design I can't find on my cameras. I can't believe that they'd redesign the hotshoe just for one camera!

BTW those images came in before I pressed send so the clean your glasses comment is a bit silly!


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

Flake said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > what a boring looking little camera.
> ...



first you did not see the 4 contacts at all but now you see that the two big ones are screws? 
you suprise me.. you must have had pretty dirty glasses.... lol

but yes it could be screws (could be contacts) .. thougth i have not seen screws there before.


----------



## mackguyver (Jul 20, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> WOW, finally a Canon lens cap WITH additional inner grips ... like Nikon and almost evryone else has them for decades. Wonder, whether it will be included with the lens or an optional item like lens hoods ...


I think that's the most interesting part of the leaked photos!


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

> The sources also told us that the first camera feels a bit cheap in your hands. And according to them it’s not a m43 killer camera. Quite the opposite. The NEX cameras are still better in doing competition to m43 cameras. Overalla Nikon and Canon had a very cautious way of entering the mirrorless world. One more thing: A more advanced Canon (and Nikon) camera will arrive in a few months only.
> 
> 
> http://www.43rumors.com/




bah....


----------



## Daniel Flather (Jul 20, 2012)

Stuart said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF-M
> 
> Why would canon reuse an old part number?



My exact though when I saw the home page here. It looks like a nice camera; Canon must keep the price in check, the current G series camera's price is too high for what it is. If this new camera with a basic prime is reasonably priced, I'll pick one up as an EDC.


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

Daniel Flather said:


> My exact though when I saw the home page here. It looks like a nice camera; Canon must keep the price in check, the current G series camera's price is too high for what it is. If this new camera with a basic prime is* reasonably priced*, I'll pick one up as an EDC.



looking at canons latest releases... i would not BET on that.


----------



## dickgrafixstop (Jul 20, 2012)

The Canon Camel of Design has struck again? Tell me again why I would want one of these things - or better
yet, why would I want one of these rather than even the cheapest Rebel? A mad desire to buy new lenses?
A use for my old speedlite? An excuse to get bigger pockets on my field jacket? If this is truely "the answer",
then I don't understand the question. Hello Fuji!


----------



## Japodus (Jul 20, 2012)

Ugly useless toy !!! 

What happens with Canon?


----------



## rafaelsynths (Jul 20, 2012)

Does anyone else think this camera is so damn ugly? Seriously i wonder what they were thinking. The nikon mirror less cameras look better than this.


----------



## Positron (Jul 20, 2012)

Wow, that looks tiny! 43mm filter thread on that lens makes the body about the same size as the Lumix GF3. And the sensor looks bigger, too! If there are a few fast lenses and an EVF available, and the price isn't totally outrageous, I could see myself buying one.

Edit: Actually, on second look, the sensor appears about the same size. I guess we'll see on Monday, anyway.


----------



## paulc (Jul 20, 2012)

Hey wait a second... I don't see a direct print button. Maybe there's one on the side.


----------



## chito (Jul 20, 2012)

yeah, it's boring...

I mean, what does it have going for it? Why would I choose this over a NEX an X-Pro or an OM-D? The only thing that is has going for it (at least for me), is EF compatibility, but a small camera with huge lenses is not very enticing. 

And if it is APS-C it's going to be a huge camera.


----------



## maxxevv (Jul 20, 2012)

Seriously ... why does it matter how a camera looks ?? Then for that case, I guess you guys don't use DSLR's at all .. coz they are butt ugly ... ?? 

If you really want the cache... Get a Leica M-9.


----------



## Daniel Flather (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm curious if this camera will accept the use of a 600rt speedlight, and if the new transmitter will be somehow supported.


----------



## Eddie (Jul 20, 2012)

*can't be everything to everyone*

This looks perfect for me IF it does have the t4i/650's autofocus and iso performance. A modern aps-c canon sensor should really outperform m4/3 on iso - and yet this new canon appears to be as small as the smallest m4/3.

Other things i'm anxious to know about:

1. They need a 35 1.4 prime - and it can't be gigantic. Going to want to see some reviews of ef-m lenses as well. Certainly the sony nex is really limited (to me) by the lack of good primes. (They have that 1 carl zeiss 24mm but it's huge. ) 

2. Hopefully there's no shutter lag compromise by virtue of the size? (probably unlikely to be an issue) 

3. Definitely hope for a good external EVF 

I have a fuji xpro 1 in the first 30 days of ownership. The fuji 35mm 1.4 lens is excellent. Image quality is superb. Has a mediocre built in EVF. But I trust canon more overall and will consider returning the xp1 if the canon comes with a 35 1.4 and has phase detect autofocus.

A note to the "full frame" crowd: Fast autofocus lenses for FF would be too big! APS-C seems to be the perfect size for mirrorless cameras as it gives you virtually all of the ISO performance of FF, keeps the camera package small enough and certainly provides plenty of resolution in the files. 

So far, for the real world, this appears to be a great offering from a great camera company. 


PS couldn't care less about the look. I'll take pictures of unused leica MPs if I want to see pretty cameras.


----------



## infared (Jul 20, 2012)

Japodus said:


> Ugly useless toy !!!
> 
> What happens with Canon?



+++++ 1000


----------



## c.d.embrey (Jul 20, 2012)

dadgummit said:


> The only thing I am worried about with the EF adapter is lenses like the newer *70-200 2.8 IS II* will suck the poor battery dry in no time at all.



70-200 2.8 IS II ??? 70-200 2.8 IS II ??? Why would you want to use a big/bulky/heavy 70-200 2.8 IS II on a small/light camera ???


----------



## TTMartin (Jul 20, 2012)

Positron said:


> Wow, that looks tiny! 43mm filter thread on that lens makes the body about the same size as the Lumix GF3. And the sensor looks bigger, too! If there are a few fast lenses and an EVF available, and the price isn't totally outrageous, I could see myself buying one.
> 
> Edit: Actually, on second look, the sensor appears about the same size. I guess we'll see on Monday, anyway.



Guessing hotshoe/EVF mount combined like I think it was Olympus did?


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

well it´s not a beauty... but that´s not soooo important.
if you "guys" need some fancy stuff why don´t you buy a nice small handbag for your walks on main street? ;D

what i find depressing is that it seems not only to look boring.. it is boring.


----------



## Daniel Koons (Jul 20, 2012)

*Canon EOS-M Sizes Released - Sensor size same as G1X*

I took the images off Canonpricewatch.com, Sensor size is the same as G1X. Height is 64.6mm, Width is 106.2mm, 28.8 thick. 3" screen, normal hotshoe size. Almost same size and Nikon J1 with 10mm.. 

Attached is everything resized to actual size at 300dpi. Enjoy, check my math, all done of 43mm lens cap.


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

so canon rumors sources are wrong about aps-c ?

well what a suprise 

ps: you are 100% sure you measured the lens cap diameter as 43mm and not the lens diameter as 43mm?


----------



## Eddie (Jul 20, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> well it´s not a beauty... but that´s not soooo important.
> if you "guys" need some fancy stuff why don´t you buy a nice small handbag for your walks on main street? ;D
> 
> what i find depressing is that it seems not only to look boring.. it is boring.



It still certainly has the potential to be better than any mirrorless fuji x, sony nex, leica x2 and any m4/3. I wouldn't say that's boring. 

Well maybe it's boring that they didn't invent a new autofocus system that would allow for small full frame autofocus lenses (a la the old Contax G?) The fact that it is not wildly aesthetically overbuilt like a leica m9 means it will be lighter and less expensive?


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

Eddie said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > well it´s not a beauty... but that´s not soooo important.
> ...



well i have quoted above that one source says the nex 7 is a better camera.
a stronger competition to the m43 cameras.





gothmoth said:


> The sources also told us that the first camera feels a bit cheap in your hands. And according to them it’s not a m43 killer camera. Quite the opposite. The NEX cameras are still better in doing competition to m43 cameras. Overalla Nikon and Canon had a very cautious way of entering the mirrorless world. One more thing: A more advanced Canon (and Nikon) camera will arrive in a few months only.
> 
> 
> http://www.43rumors.com/


----------



## Eddie (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Canon EOS-M Sizes Released - Sensor size same as G1X*



Daniel Koons said:


> I took the images off Canonpricewatch.com, Sensor size is the same as G1X. Height is 64.6mm, Width is 106.2mm, 28.8 thick. 3" screen, normal hotshoe size. Almost same size and Nikon J1 with 10mm..
> 
> Attached is everything resized to actual size at 300dpi. Enjoy, check my math, all done of 43mm lens cap.



if it's G1X sensor then i think it does lose it's appeal for my purposes. I don't want to have to have both a dslr and m43 equivalent. I'm one of the holdouts that want something in between. I guess i'd be keeping my x pro 1.


----------



## Eddie (Jul 20, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> well i have qouted above that one source says the nex 7 is a better camera.



Better is subjective. The sony probably still has a better sensor even if the canon is aps-c. 

Better for me would mean it would have more prime lenses and phase detect autofocus even if the sensor is not as good. 

Based on Daniel Koons calc - if it is g1x/m43 sized then the sony sounds "better" though.

Oh I just saw your other source. OK so it's a m43 competitor then.


----------



## Etienne (Jul 20, 2012)

If the 22mm lens fits on a T4i, then T4i + 22mm f2 + 40 f2.8 = great compact lightweight setup.


----------



## mb66energy (Jul 20, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> so canon rumors sources are wrong about aps-c ?
> 
> well what a suprise
> 
> ps: you are 100% sure you measured the lens cap diameter as 43mm and not the lens diameter as 43mm?



I have used the 53 mm diameter of the EF mount (if it is an EF-Mount in size - position is rotated roughly 15 degree counterclock wise) and got the following result: 21.5 mm sensor width, 1.45 aspect ratio of the blueish-greenish area of the sensor. If they don't have an insane amount of sensor area for other purposes it should be APS-C ... hopefully


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

mb66energy said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > so canon rumors sources are wrong about aps-c ?
> ...



yep i think he is wrong. 

22x16mm is my result.

given that the cap diameter is 43mm and not the lens diameter.
the lens cap does not cover the whole lens as you can see on the images.

http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/eosm4.jpg

that also fits with a ~2 cm hotshoe.


----------



## spacegoret (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Canon EOS-M Sizes Released - Sensor size same as G1X*

Let's suppose that the sensor is APS C and compare it to a NEX.

The body of the EOS M seems too big.

Other details are too big also. For example, the screws and pogo pins of the mount.


----------



## mb66energy (Jul 20, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> mb66energy said:
> 
> 
> > Gothmoth said:
> ...



But what, if it isn't a EF-sized mount ... from the images the inner diameter might be substantially smaller than 53 mm so the sensor will shrink ... to G1X-size? Oh no ...


----------



## joe1946 (Jul 20, 2012)

That can't be a 22mm F2.0 lens for APS-C since the objective lens is too small. It looks like a 4/3rds lens.


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Canon EOS-M Sizes Released - Sensor size same as G1X*



spacegoret said:


> Let's suppose that the sensor is APS C and compare it to a NEX.
> 
> The body of the EOS M seems too big.
> 
> Other details are too big also. For example, the screws and pogo pins of the mount.



you notice the mount of the NEX?


----------



## RLPhoto (Jul 20, 2012)

Why so much hate on this camera? From first impressions, it's close to what we've been asking for.

Small lightweight body. I think it looks fine, simplistic, and friendly to the consumer.

APS-C sensor at least, thats good.

A small fast prime. F/2 is nice.

Possibly touchscreen that works as good as the t4i. Maybe.

Possibly On-sensor Phase AF. Like the t4i.

A hot shoe for running accessories. A EVF possibly.

Possibly a EF adapter if you really want to put a 200 F/2 on it. 

Even better if the kit with body & 22mm f/2 is around the 599$. That'd be a hard competitor in the market.

I think this will be my little buddy in my pocket, if the price is right. ;D


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

mb66energy said:


> But what, if it isn't a EF-sized mount ... from the images the inner diameter might be substantially smaller than 53 mm so the sensor will shrink ... to G1X-size? Oh no ...



i measured the filter mount (don´t know how it´s called in english) of the lens as as 43mm not the EF mount.

when i do that in photoshop the hotshoe has the correct size of 19mm and the sensor 22x15mm (+-1 mm).


----------



## seta666 (Jul 20, 2012)

joe1946 said:


> That can't be a 22mm F2.0 lens for APS-C since the objective lens is too small. It looks like a 4/3rds lens.


The glass size is about the same as that on the 23/2 of the X100; I guess all people's measurements are wrong because no one is taking into account the change of perspective caused because of the sensor being around 40-50mm behind of the 43mm filter ring

The proportions are definetly 2:3 so I am possitive it is a canon standard APS-C sensor


----------



## msowsun (Jul 20, 2012)

Etienne said:


> If the 22mm lens fits on a T4i, then T4i + 22mm f2 + 40 f2.8 = great compact lightweight setup.






mb66energy said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > so canon rumors sources are wrong about aps-c ?
> ...



By my rough calculations the EF-M lens mount would be about 15% smaller than an EF or EF-S mount and it looks more like a regular 22.3 x 14.9 APS-C sensor rather than the 18.7 x 14mm G1x sensor.


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

correct msowsun that´s how i measured it too.


----------



## Daniel Flather (Jul 20, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> Possibly a EF adapter if you really want to put a 200 F/2 on it.



If the shorty fourty is a functional body cap, can this camera be a functional lens cap?


----------



## spacegoret (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Canon EOS-M Sizes Released - Sensor size same as G1X*


Suppose that the sensor is APS C and compare it to a NEX 7.


----------



## RLPhoto (Jul 20, 2012)

Daniel Flather said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Possibly a EF adapter if you really want to put a 200 F/2 on it.
> ...



An expensive cap to keep on your 200 F/2 while in its case. Sure why not? Always ready to take a photo with that beast. 8)


----------



## dadgummit (Jul 20, 2012)

c.d.embrey said:


> dadgummit said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing I am worried about with the EF adapter is lenses like the newer *70-200 2.8 IS II* will suck the poor battery dry in no time at all.
> ...



Yes that is an extreme example but valid, ok how about 70-300L or a 17-55IS. Given the saturation of this market the biggest selling feature of this camera has to be the proposed dual purpose. You can use it as a good compact camera AND you can use it with your EF lenses too. If you just wanted a mirrorless and nothing else I think it would be better to go M4/3 because of the availability of different lenses or to the Fuji models for looks and IQ.


----------



## mb66energy (Jul 20, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> mb66energy said:
> 
> 
> > But what, if it isn't a EF-sized mount ... from the images the inner diameter might be substantially smaller than 53 mm so the sensor will shrink ... to G1X-size? Oh no ...
> ...



If I use the 43mm filter thread, I get 19-20mm sensor width.
If I use your idea with the hot shoe, I get 21.5mm.
Perhaps I should shut off my PC, cook some vegetable soup and go to bed (It's 9 PM here in germany) ... and wait for the official anouncement.


----------



## mb66energy (Jul 20, 2012)

Daniel Flather said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Possibly a EF adapter if you really want to put a 200 F/2 on it.
> ...



Yes it can. In my opinion. Most of the time my 10-22 is hanging around with a non-funcional lens cap and I would like to convert that seldomly used lens into a lens with functional lens cap - to make it more accessible (I really don't like to change lenses all the day). I am dreaming severeal years about that solution.


----------



## Daniel Koons (Jul 20, 2012)

You have to remember the sensors rarely take up the whole area. The blue all the way around the sensor is not the sensor. If you measure edge to edge it would be APS-C, I included the actual numbers according to photoshop, ignoring the green it is definitely G1X sensor size. Zoom in check it out.


----------



## sandymandy (Jul 20, 2012)

The mirrorless doesnt look like a DSLR replacement. It just got Automatic Mode, Video Mode and.....some other mode. Hopefully manual mode but it might be some effects sth stuff.

and yeah anyway no viewfinder, god im retarded.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 20, 2012)

@Eddie


> Well maybe it's boring that they didn't invent a new autofocus system that would allow for small full frame autofocus lenses (a la the old Contax G?) The fact that it is not wildly aesthetically overbuilt like a leica m9 means it will be lighter and less expensive?



As much as I am a fan of the contax g cameras (I may still actually buy a g2 & standard lens) they are not as compact as the current mirrorless crop (full frame essentially) and the AF only works so well because of the seperate rangefinder optical path, which would add bulk to a camera that is supposed to be compact.

It's a nice idea but you would almost be as well with a rebel.

On the other hand if Contax ever came back with a digital G series camera...


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 20, 2012)

@SandyMandy


> The mirrorless doesnt look like a DSLR replacement. It just got Automatic Mode, Video Mode and.....some other mode. Hopefully manual mode but it might be some effects sth stuff.



It's pretty much aimed at folk upgrading from compacts, who want better IQ, but not more complexity.
I guess Canon see this is where the typical buyer is for this kind of camera, and if so I can kind of see their point.
Hopefully there will be a later model more worthy of the EOS name. As the Rebels prove you can have it easy and have it controllable.


----------



## Daniel Koons (Jul 20, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> mb66energy said:
> 
> 
> > Gothmoth said:
> ...




You are measuring the whole area, not the sensor. Zoom in and bright it, it looks just like all the other sensors, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, mirrorless or DSLR.


----------



## mathino (Jul 20, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> @SandyMandy
> 
> 
> > The mirrorless doesnt look like a DSLR replacement. It just got Automatic Mode, Video Mode and.....some other mode. Hopefully manual mode but it might be some effects sth stuff.
> ...



Exactly ! I hope for more advanced model. This looks like a consumer one. I dont mind if advanced model becomes a bit bigger - better grip for people with larger hands.

...ok so we know how it could look like. *Any info about specs ?*


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

Daniel Koons said:


> You are measuring the whole area, not the sensor. Zoom in and bright it, it looks just like all the other sensors, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, mirrorless or DSLR.



we will see on monday who is right


----------



## hoodlum (Jul 20, 2012)

This is what a 4/3 sensor looks like. The EOS M looks like 3:2


----------



## htjunkie (Jul 20, 2012)

I don't know if it has been noted before in the thread, but there doesn't seem to be any way to easily dial-in your exposure like on the EOS bodies (and by easily, I mean dedicated buttons / wheels). Even the S95 has a dedicated ring in the front to help you dial in aperture, shutter speed or ISO.


----------



## marekjoz (Jul 20, 2012)

htjunkie said:


> I don't know if it has been noted before in the thread, but there doesn't seem to be any way to easily dial-in your exposure like on the EOS bodies (and by easily, I mean dedicated buttons / wheels). Even the S95 has a dedicated ring in the front to help you dial in aperture, shutter speed or ISO.



They maybe resolved this some smart way on the touchscreen? But wait. If this camera is for P&S market, then why someone would ever need change sth in exposure settings?


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

hoodlum said:


> This is what a 4/3 sensor looks like. The EOS M looks like 3:2



well it is sure no m43 sensor.... nobody wrote THAT.

question is APS-C or G1X sensor.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jul 20, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> Why so much hate on this camera? From first impressions, it's close to what we've been asking for.



What I've been asking for is for the kit zoom (and possibly a short prime) to fold entirely inside the body when power is off. This doesn't appear to have been accomplished.


----------



## hoodlum (Jul 20, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> htjunkie said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if it has been noted before in the thread, but there doesn't seem to be any way to easily dial-in your exposure like on the EOS bodies (and by easily, I mean dedicated buttons / wheels). Even the S95 has a dedicated ring in the front to help you dial in aperture, shutter speed or ISO.
> ...



But if this is for the P&S market, you need a compact zoom lens not a prime. I still say the P&S market is better served with fixed zoom larger sensor compacts (ala RX100).


----------



## hoodlum (Jul 20, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> well it is sure no m43 sensor.... nobody wrote THAT.
> 
> question is APS-C or G1X sensor.



Who said it was a m4/3 sensor. You do know that the G1X sensor is 4:3 and APS-C is 3:2 format. That is the easiest way to determine which sensor is in the EOS M when looking at the pictures.


----------



## Flake (Jul 20, 2012)

Daniel Koons said:


> You have to remember the sensors rarely take up the whole area. The blue all the way around the sensor is not the sensor. If you measure edge to edge it would be APS-C, I included the actual numbers according to photoshop, ignoring the green it is definitely G1X sensor size. Zoom in check it out.



But what if your measure of 43mm is in the wrong place? Shouldn't it be on the outside edge of the lens where most other filter rings fit?


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

hoodlum said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > well it is sure no m43 sensor.... nobody wrote THAT.
> ...



yeah well if that´s what you wanted to say you could have that easier 
i thought you posted that picture because you mean it´s an m43 sensor.

for me it looks not like 4:3 .. so another point for aps-c.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj524/picrumors/canonstuff/eosm3.jpg


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 20, 2012)

Flake said:


> Daniel Koons said:
> 
> 
> > You have to remember the sensors rarely take up the whole area. The blue all the way around the sensor is not the sensor. If you measure edge to edge it would be APS-C, I included the actual numbers according to photoshop, ignoring the green it is definitely G1X sensor size. Zoom in check it out.
> ...



look how the lens cap is attached.. that is where the filters sit.
otherwise the sensor would be even smaller .. if the outer diameter is 43mm.


----------



## bkslater (Jul 20, 2012)

Daniel Koons said:


> You have to remember the sensors rarely take up the whole area. The blue all the way around the sensor is not the sensor. If you measure edge to edge it would be APS-C, I included the actual numbers according to photoshop, ignoring the green it is definitely G1X sensor size. Zoom in check it out.



Comparing dimensions of objects in different image planes is not valid. Objects at greater distances (i.e. the sensor) appear smaller. Dependent on the angle of view of the lens used to take the photos, the sensor may be in fact be APS-C.


----------



## hoodlum (Jul 20, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> hoodlum said:
> 
> 
> > Gothmoth said:
> ...



Yes, it looks like an APS-C (3:2) sensor, not the G1X (4:3) sensor.


----------



## ScottyP (Jul 20, 2012)

Looks like a toy. Has fewer controls than our little P&S SX 120.


----------



## distant.star (Jul 20, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> Why so much hate on this camera? From first impressions, it's close to what we've been asking for.




.
It seems I missed that meeting where "we" decided on what we've been asking for.

In the sub-DSLR world, I've got an S95, and it does all I need. I never asked for anything like this.

What I DID ask for was a $2900 USD 5D3.


----------



## moreorless (Jul 20, 2012)

hoodlum said:


> But if this is for the P&S market, you need a compact zoom lens not a prime. I still say the P&S market is better served with fixed zoom larger sensor compacts (ala RX100).



I'd say a 35mm equivilent prime may well find a significant market, the problem with the NEX and Nikon 1 pancakes is that they were both too wide for general use and not that fast.


----------



## ro_n (Jul 20, 2012)

ScottyP said:


> Looks like a toy. Has fewer controls than our little P&S SX 120.



The +/- button indicates EC, the * locks exposure and the Q button in the middle of the dial acts like that on every DSLR. Easy and sufficient.


----------



## zim (Jul 20, 2012)

distant.star said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Why so much hate on this camera? From first impressions, it's close to what we've been asking for.
> ...




…. and what I asked for was a M9 busting rangefinder street camera but that was never going to happen either don’t think I’ll even log on Monday think I’ll go and take some piccies instead yaaaaawnnnnnnnn


----------



## MRW (Jul 20, 2012)

I don't think there is any point in complaining about possible leaked photos but that being said...
I have not been super excited about a canon since the s95 and I really really want to be. everything seams to be kind of a letdown.
hoping and semi-confident that will all change soon. I hope hope hope.


----------



## marekjoz (Jul 20, 2012)

zim said:


> …. and what I asked for was a M9 busting rangefinder street camera but that was never going to happen either don’t think I’ll even log on Monday think I’ll go and take some piccies instead yaaaaawnnnnnnnn



This M9 with Hermes? ;D
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=7948.msg144987#msg144987


----------



## bkslater (Jul 20, 2012)

ScottyP said:


> Looks like a toy. Has fewer controls than our little P&S SX 120.



Fewer external controls, true. But we might expect a touchpad interface to any control needed. I think this is far from a toy, and perhaps one of the smartest ideas that Canon has had lately. We will see with the official announcement, but it seems to me that Canon has decided to produce a bare-bones model to begin with and may price it aggressively. The killer feature will be the ability to autofocus relatively well with the vast array of current EF and EF-S lenses (with a simple adaptor), and with a carefully selected set of new small lenses starting with the 22. Your SX can't do that, and nor can any other camera this small.


----------



## moreorless (Jul 20, 2012)

Besides the possible sensor size one detail I do notice is that theres a round space behind the mount which could allow for the very close backfocus distances that were rumoured a few months ago with the mirrorless 18-55m patent.


----------



## Eddie (Jul 20, 2012)

*18-55 lens picture*

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/more-pictures-of-the-canon-eos-m-mirrorless-cam-including-new-18-55mm-lens-pic/

looks a LOT more like aps-c is the sensor size. perfect


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 20, 2012)

@htjunkie


> I don't know if it has been noted before in the thread, but there doesn't seem to be any way to easily dial-in your exposure like on the EOS bodies (and by easily, I mean dedicated buttons / wheels). Even the S95 has a dedicated ring in the front to help you dial in aperture, shutter speed or ISO.



At first glance I thought the knurled ring around the shutter could have been an input dial, same with the narrower ring around the rear buttons, however, it seems from the plan view that this is a mode switch between video and stills, and if the camera is aimed squarely at auto powershotters I don't think they would attempt to replicate the front and rear qcd controls of larger EOS cameras.

Could be a very nice touch for the future though.


----------



## AvTvM (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: 18-55 lens picture*



Eddie said:


> http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/more-pictures-of-the-canon-eos-m-mirrorless-cam-including-new-18-55mm-lens-pic/
> 
> looks a LOT more like aps-c is the sensor size. perfect



yes! And the 18-55 has IS as well. But the photo is obviously carefully taken from an angle that conceals aperture info. ;-)


----------



## JBL (Jul 21, 2012)

More photos. Including a new speedlite.


----------



## mathino (Jul 21, 2012)

Battery type also out 

http://www.canonpricewatch.com/product/03943/Canon-LP-E12-for-EOS-M-price.html


----------



## hammar (Jul 21, 2012)

Would be nice with a fixed f/2.8 for the zoom, or at least a fixed f/4.

Probably a boooring 3.5-5.6.


----------



## crasher8 (Jul 21, 2012)

I'm still at odds with the hotshoe and the thought of this being entry level/consumer whatnot. On one side it seems as if it doesn't have the controls for a top tier body and thus a pop up is needed. On the other hand perhaps it's all touch screen and it's much more sophisticated then these images belie. I guess time will tell. All in all it's not for me, I'm waiting for September's news.


----------



## c.d.embrey (Jul 21, 2012)

JBL said:


> More photos. Including a new speedlite.



Thanks!

I have no interest in kit zoomz or small speedlights, but I'm sure many are  I'm sure glad that Canon decided to go with a real hot-shoe flash. Having a hot-shoe is a good thing   I can't use PocketWizards on my Sony NEX 5n for lack of a hot-shoe   

Now where are the pix of the EF to M adapter ???


----------



## c.d.embrey (Jul 21, 2012)

I wonder how soon till Richard Franiec http://www.kleptography.com/rf/ has a finger grip for the EOS M. He makes these grips for the Canon S90/S95 and S100.


----------



## ScottyP (Jul 21, 2012)

Sure, but how good is its call quality, and can I play Angry Birds for very long without running the battery down?


----------



## kennephoto (Jul 21, 2012)

But can it read?


----------



## paulc (Jul 21, 2012)

Ok, so 18-55 pretty much seals the deal that this thing is an APS-C. That's all that really matters. Don't like the aesthetics of this thing? Doesn't matter. Need wheels? Doesn't matter. Angry about the lack of a PASM dial? Doesn't matter. Color reminds you of your ex? Doesn't matter.

What does matter is EF-M = APS-C. What logically follows is we'll have an EF/EF-S->EF-M adapter and Canon mirrorless cameras will be able to use our existing lenses.

This thing is the first gen of a new class. THIS particular mirrorless camera is obviously aimed at consumers. We kinda have an inkling that it will have a sibling out near or at arrival. We're pretty damn sure there's going to be a second generation, and Canon's the kind of company who will make a higher end one. If this exact offering doesn't blow your skirt up eventually one will probably come along. The important thing is that it's APS-C. This is just one body which is current for a year or two. A mount lasts decades.

Canon doesn't really care about selling bodies so much as they care about getting you hooked into their lens system. Someone buying a low-end body is a customer. Someone buying many lenses is a very good customer. Canon wants their customers to be very good customers, and that means more lenses and future bodies. APS-C gets them there.


----------



## ScottyP (Jul 21, 2012)

kennephoto said:


> But can it read?



There's an app for that.


----------



## gmrza (Jul 21, 2012)

Gothmoth said:


> correct msowsun that´s how i measured it too.



I tend to agree - the sensor looks "slimmer" i.e. closer to 3:2 than images I have seen of the G1X sensor. Also, the rear LCD seems to have a 3:2 aspect ratio. I have never seen a camera which leaves blank edges on the left and/or right sides when displaying an image in landscape orientation. That would seem to suggest a sensor with a 3:2 aspect ratio.


----------



## Gcon (Jul 21, 2012)

What a PoS  No manual controls (sorry touch-screen doesn't count), and butt ugly.

Well looks like Leica can breath easy - this is laughable by comparison.


----------



## kennephoto (Jul 21, 2012)

Does everyone want a camera that is a sub 1000$ Leica?


----------



## sixlovelylies (Jul 21, 2012)

If the G1X is $709, just imagine the price on this thing. Darn. It better be made by the hands of angels if they expect more money than that.


----------



## Abraxx (Jul 21, 2012)

New tiny Speedlite?
Will it work with all other EOS Buddies?


----------



## Hillsilly (Jul 21, 2012)

I'm reasonably ok with this. But I'm anxiously waiting for confirmation of an external electronic viewfinder. For any semi-serious photographer, this is a "must have". Very curious about those camera strap connectors. Looking forward to more details.


----------



## moreorless (Jul 21, 2012)

I wonder what the camera/lens exteriors are going to be made out of? the thing that jumps to mind is obviously cheap plastic but looking at those pics it does seem to have much more of a sheen look to me than is typical for Canon's other plastic lenses. Given that this mirrorless seems to be very much aiming for the NEX I wouldnt actually be supprized if it and the lenses have metal exteriors.



sixlovelylies said:


> If the G1X is $709, just imagine the price on this thing. Darn. It better be made by the hands of angels if they expect more money than that.



The G1X has a much larger body with a viewfinder, more manual controls and a bright/long lens built in. While I'd guess Canon will try to sell this for a similar kind of price I doubt it will be $1000, even if it is mirrorless prices generally seem to fall much faster than DSLR prices.


----------



## marekjoz (Jul 21, 2012)

sixlovelylies said:


> If the G1X is $709, just imagine the price on this thing. Darn. It better be made by the hands of angels if they expect more money than that.



Most people predict it would cost 400$-800$ http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=8133.0


----------



## hollybush (Jul 21, 2012)

msowsun said:


> By my rough calculations the EF-M lens mount would be about 15% smaller than an EF or EF-S mount and it looks more like a regular 22.3 x 14.9 APS-C sensor rather than the 18.7 x 14mm G1x sensor.
> ...



How can that be a 22mm lens if the front element is only 14mm across?


----------



## eosbit (Jul 21, 2012)

I overlayed a 7D and lined up the mounting ring as best I could (first pic), then traced around the sensor on the 7d and overlayed that on the EOS-M (second pic).

Pretty sure that's aps-c we're looking at.


----------



## gmrza (Jul 21, 2012)

Hillsilly said:


> I'm reasonably ok with this. But I'm anxiously waiting for confirmation of an external electronic viewfinder. For any semi-serious photographer, this is a "must have". Very curious about those camera strap connectors. Looking forward to more details.



I think this body is going to be pitched at the bottom end of the market, so I am unsure about an EVF. The only thing that is a little incongruous if this is pitched at the low end is the lack of a pop-up flash.

I think this body will be Canon's "gateway drug" into the EOS system. They will want to keep it affordable. The only problem I see with that is that at the low end people do not want to buy separate speedlites.

I doubt we will see a 40mm pancake with an EF-M mount for instance - Canon will probably rather want people to buy an EF mount lens plus adapter, so that when they start thinking of a DLSR, they already have glass they can use on an EOS DSLR.
Once they have a more feature-rich body available, this system will be of more interest to enthusiasts.


----------



## gmrza (Jul 21, 2012)

eosbit said:


> I overlayed a 7D and lined up the mounting ring as best I could (first pic), then traced around the sensor on the 7d and overlayed that on the EOS-M (second pic).
> 
> Pretty sure that's aps-c we're looking at.



What also intrigues me is that it looks like the diameter of the lens mount is large enough to accomodate a full frame sensor. It looks like Canon may be playing the long game here, with a view to a strategic investment in a system which can be extended, rather than looking for a quick win.


----------



## J (Jul 21, 2012)

hollybush said:


> How can that be a 22mm lens if the front element is only 14mm across?


Because it's f/2 and has a physical aperture of 11mm.


----------



## Joseph M (Jul 21, 2012)

I actually like the look of it, sure it isn't retro-looking like the Fuji X series or the Leicas but I don't find it ugly at all.

I don't have money to spend at the moment, but I can't wait to see what else canon has to offer. ;D


----------



## eosbit (Jul 21, 2012)

gmrza said:


> eosbit said:
> 
> 
> > I overlayed a 7D and lined up the mounting ring as best I could (first pic), then traced around the sensor on the 7d and overlayed that on the EOS-M (second pic).
> ...



Of course it's large enough, it's an EF series mount. But you're right, Canon (as usual) are playing the big picture long game here. They would never put everything on the plate straight away, got to leave enough features out to enable yearly upgrades.


----------



## zim (Jul 21, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > …. and what I asked for was a M9 busting rangefinder street camera but that was never going to happen either don’t think I’ll even log on Monday think I’ll go and take some piccies instead yaaaaawnnnnnnnn
> ...




meh you can keep the cow skin my cat would just try and piss on it ;D ;D

anyways not sure if this P&S really should be called a camera after all a proper camera has a viewfinder this looks more like a phone that can’t make calls


----------



## paulc (Jul 21, 2012)

gmrza said:


> What also intrigues me is that it looks like the diameter of the lens mount is large enough to accomodate a full frame sensor. It looks like Canon may be playing the long game here, with a view to a strategic investment in a system which can be extended, rather than looking for a quick win.



Good call, though since the mount is about the same size that all stands to reason. Again, mounts last for decades so no reason to kill FF for mirrorless. As EVFs get better it's entirely possible we'll see a FF mirrorless. Heck, mirrored may go away entirely. Mirrorless doesn't have to be small. Folks curse EVFs, but EVFs can be made to be whatever size they wish. Optical viewfinders are the size they are due to physical constraints and how much light there is. Remove all that and replace it with something that has the cost curve of electronics.


----------



## EchoLocation (Jul 21, 2012)

If this is indeed APS-C, I'm very intrigued. 
The only real problem I see with this camera is no pop up flash and no viewfinder.....
Why does Canon think someone in a mirrorless system is going to want to carry around a seperate flash unit.... I hate that Canon doesn't put pop ups on their DSLR's.
I am also very curious if this EF-M can take FF in the future. Because there is no pop up flash, viewfinder, and the fact that there is sure to be an upgraded specs version of this I will wait to join Canon Mirrorless... but once these things are in FF, I will jump on it instantly.


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 21, 2012)

bottom line.....

this camera may is an disappointment for photographers... but it´s only the first camera in a long line.

so if you don´t like this camera (and i don´t like it that much) wait for the pro model and the evolution of the line.

im happy that it´s aps-c... great things to come.
now canon has to show a few great M-mount lenses.


----------



## derdide (Jul 21, 2012)

I don't see the missing flash as an issue. The viewfinder is something else. They have chosen a very compact form factor, what is quite good, but Sony has proven with the Nex7 that it is achievable to have such a form factor without sacrificing the VF. 
Canon seems to propose a serious contender to the Nex3 and maybe to the Nex5 (if touchscreen allows advanced controls), now I hope for a Nex7 rival. But I do like that one already.


----------



## TTMartin (Jul 21, 2012)

EchoLocation said:


> If this is indeed APS-C, I'm very intrigued.
> The only real problem I see with this camera is no pop up flash and no viewfinder.....
> Why does Canon think someone in a mirrorless system is going to want to carry around a seperate flash unit.... I hate that Canon doesn't put pop ups on their DSLR's.
> I am also very curious if this EF-M can take FF in the future. Because there is no pop up flash, viewfinder, and the fact that there is sure to be an upgraded specs version of this I will wait to join Canon Mirrorless... but once these things are in FF, I will jump on it instantly.



I would guess it has an ultra-bight LED in the upper left corner. With higher ISO capabilities a constant on LED will give about the same perfromance as the low guide number flashes on early Rebels.

edit: Canon Digital Rebel (300D) has/had a built in flash with a guide number of 13 (ISO 100, meters)


----------



## Gothmoth (Jul 21, 2012)

TTMartin said:


> I would guess it has an ultra-bight LED in the upper left corner.



sure not. 
a lens would shadow half the light.


----------



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 21, 2012)

*Canon EF-M 18-55 IS Lens & Flash Image*


```
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<div id="attachment_10719" class="wp-caption alignnone" style="width: 511px"><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/eosm18551.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-10719" title="eosm1855" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/eosm18551.jpg" alt="" width="501" height="537" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Canon EF-M 18-55 IS</p></div>
<div id="attachment_10722" class="wp-caption alignnone" style="width: 510px"><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/eosmflash.jpeg"><img class="size-full wp-image-10722" title="eosmflash" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/eosmflash.jpeg" alt="" width="500" height="500" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Canon EOS M External Flash</p></div>
<p> </p>
```


----------



## jebrady03 (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Canon EF-M 18-55 IS Lens Image*

So it actually is an APS-C sensor in the M Mount? And obviously IBIS won't be a feature.


----------



## Menace (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Canon EF-M 18-55 IS Lens Image*

How fast is the aperture?


----------



## mrsfotografie (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Canon EF-M 18-55 IS Lens & Flash Image*

18-55 points to an APC-C sensor?

That flash may be good for me when travelling with my 5DII 8)


----------



## kidnaper (Jul 21, 2012)

eosbit said:


> I overlayed a 7D and lined up the mounting ring as best I could (first pic), then traced around the sensor on the 7d and overlayed that on the EOS-M (second pic).
> 
> Pretty sure that's aps-c we're looking at.


I really like the textured 7D grip instead of the little strip grip on this thing. That alone would make me more interested in this camera.


----------



## gmrza (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Canon EF-M 18-55 IS Lens & Flash Image*



mrsfotografie said:


> 18-55 points to an APC-C sensor?
> 
> That flash may be good for me when travelling with my 5DII 8)



What I'm wondering as well is whether there will be greater reliance on software (or silicon) to correct spherical (and possibly chromatic) aberration. That could possibly see small(er) sharp(er), (relatively) more affordable lenses, but a greater reliance on the in-camera JPG engine or post-processing in software to correct aberrations.


----------



## RLPhoto (Jul 21, 2012)

I forgot to mention. What if this camera is jpg only?!


----------



## mrsfotografie (Jul 21, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> I forgot to mention. What if this camera is jpg only?!



Then you'll have to wait until you can use CHDK with it ???


----------



## chito (Jul 21, 2012)

eosbit said:


> gmrza said:
> 
> 
> > eosbit said:
> ...



You need it to be EF sized, to use the adaptor for all of our EF lenses... which it most certainly will have...

Now.. mirrorless FF? I think it's unlikely. You'd have to create _another_ mount.. same flange distance as the EF-M, lenses with larger full frame image circles.. it probably wouldn't be able to use EF-M lenses, unless they do a crop mode like Nikon...


----------



## msowsun (Jul 21, 2012)

> You need it to be EF sized, to use the adaptor for all of our EF lenses... which it most certainly will have...
> 
> Now.. mirrorless FF? I think it's unlikely. You'd have to create _another_ mount.. same flange distance as the EF-M, lenses with larger full frame image circles.. it probably wouldn't be able to use EF-M lenses, unless they do a crop mode like Nikon...



It is not an EF sized mount. You will need an adapter for two reasons. Increase the flange to sensor distance and also to physically mount the larger EF or EF-S mount to the smaller EF-M mount. 

This is also true when mounting Sony Alpha mount lenses to their Sony E mount NEX cameras. 

By my rough calculations the EF-M lens mount would be about 15% smaller than an EF or EF-S mount.


----------



## 6950rpm (Jul 21, 2012)

Are those extra contacts on the hot shoe and if so, has anyone else noticed them?

Could that mean that the hot shoe is for something else in addition to a flash?


----------



## msowsun (Jul 21, 2012)

6950rpm said:


> Are those extra contacts on the hot shoe and if so, has anyone else noticed them?
> 
> Could that mean that the hot shoe is for something else in addition to a flash?



It looks like two Phillips head screws to me. 






CSI enhancement


----------



## Bob Howland (Jul 21, 2012)

6950rpm said:


> Are those extra contacts on the hot shoe and if so, has anyone else noticed them?
> 
> Could that mean that the hot shoe is for something else in addition to a flash?



EVF perhaps? There is also one extra contact in the lens mount, for power zoom perhaps?


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## Gothmoth (Jul 21, 2012)

6950rpm said:


> Are those extra contacts on the hot shoe and if so, has anyone else noticed them?
> 
> Could that mean that the hot shoe is for something else in addition to a flash?



yes i have posted about them before.
thought it could be for an EVF.. but could be screws also.

thought i have no camera that has screws on the hotshoe.


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## msowsun (Jul 21, 2012)

> thought i have no camera that has screws on the hotshoe.



I think they are always hidden under a plate.


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## RayValdez360 (Jul 21, 2012)

Who is this camera geared towards? Point and shooters that want to feel like they have a small dsrl?


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 21, 2012)

RayValdez360 said:


> Who is this camera geared towards? Point and shooters that want to feel like they have a small dsrl?



*Most P&S owners up-grade to smart phones*. Also some professional sports shooters are up-grading to smart phones http://www.petapixel.com/2012/03/06/instagram-portraits-of-the-yankees-shot-inside-a-bathroom-turned-studio/  

*Sony has sold a lot of NEX 5n cameras, many of them to Canon DSLR owners*. The Canon EOS M is about the same size and has many of the same features (or the same lack of features), *so maybe it is aimed at Canon owners who also have Sony NEX 5n cameras*


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## Daniel Flather (Jul 21, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> I forgot to mention. What if this camera is jpg only?!




Then I'll entertain the shorty fourty and my 5D3, or wait for a RAW version EOS-M, or both, probably both.


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## Richard8971 (Jul 21, 2012)

pakosouthpark said:


> joke?



No it's not a joke. You are actually looking at the beginnings of the future of DSLR's.

Why do I say that? Simple. The only reason for the mirror is to bounce the image into the viewfinder so that the photographer can see exactly what they are taking a photo of. (Focus, DOF, etc...)

Now enter the world of mirrorless cameras. The back LCD acts as the viewfinder and for now they are large and cumbersome. Given advances in technology and the speed at which it is advancing, soon we will see LCD screens small enough AND high enough of resolution and brightness to act in place of our current DSLR viewfinders. Or it may be some sort of digital-optical viewfinder... who knows? But this is the start of it.

There will be added benefits too, higher FPS (no mirror to "slow" the camera down), camera bodies that do not have a shutter mechanism to wear out and reduced costs. 

The DSLR won't be around forever, it will eventually be replaced by some other new technology and I believe that the mirrorless camera is the direction this is all heading.

D


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## Fiya (Jul 21, 2012)

I already have an X Pro 1, as a backup... But would love something that made my L lenses useful on a smaller body, and just something small and powerful for those times you don't want to lug around the 5D mk2.

Since its all electrical.. I'm wondering why they wouldn't (At least for the next 'Pro' model) make an EOS adapter that has an aperture ring on it. So that they could reduce the controls on the camera and still be usable. Since it looks like that is what they are trying to do. They could even go all out and (I doubt this from Canon) have an EOS-EF adapter that has both the aperture AND the shutterspeed on the adapter. Hasselblad has been doing this on their V system for around 50 years. (Both on the lens.) Its a beautiful system, and while its not as fast as the shutter/aperture wheels on canons full sized DSLR... I think it could work well on a very small body. Much better than no controls or touchscreen controls.


I feel the general idea is a good one. Noone like to carry around a 5D Mk2 with 24-70 for 15 hours a day. This plus a 16-35 is a pretty good set. Another would be the 22mm EF-M, and the 40mm EF with adapter on it. I guess we will see how the EF-M glass is.

I'm not sure about this version... If I buy a Canon Mirrorless it better be damn good because it will replace my Fuji X Pro 1. I've heard many of mixed thoughts about the Fuji, but I love it. I've shot some landscapes to live shows in very low light with it. All the places I would prefer to not bring the 5D mk2.


Also, EVFs and LCDs will never replace optical. For me its so unbelievably different viewing through an EVF compared to an Optical one. I bought my Fuji X100 and X Pro 1 for this reason. Compared to the other offerings, these gave me more of everything I wanted in a small package. Its the same reason shooting with a Hasselblad V series (501 CM) is so 'magical'.


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 21, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> The DSLR won't be around forever, it will eventually be replaced by some other new technology and I believe that the mirrorless camera is the direction this is all heading.
> 
> D



*Very true.* Technology is rapidly changing. First the OVF will be replaced by EVF. Then Full Frame will be replaced by APS-C. APS-C won't stick around too long before it is replaced by ... Time marches on, it's been a long time since PJs shot news and sports with 4x5 cameras.


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## lol (Jul 21, 2012)

Nothing lasts forever, but they can sure stick around a long time. Look at Leica... they carved out a niche and are doing ok out of it. Even *if* mirrorless takes over the market served by lower level DSLRs, I think there's enough niche for higher end DSLRs to survive for the foreseeable future. If you need digital full frame, there's only 3 real choices at the moment, Canon, Nikon and Leica. I'm leaving out Sony for now as I believe their full frame models are discontinued pending replacement. Canon and Nikon are both rumoured to be bringing out cheaper full frame bodies so that will help too. Maybe, some day in the very distant future, there'll be more mirrorless full frame systems too. But it might be too little too late as "good enough" of smaller sensors will do for the masses, leaving full frame as another Leica-like niche.

Then there's also the chance that a future technology renders what we know as photography right now obsolete.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 21, 2012)

@Bob Howland



> EVF perhaps? There is also one extra contact in the lens mount, for power zoom perhaps?



Canon made a power zoom lens ages back (for the film 750 / 800's as I recall) pretty crap range (35-80) pretty crap aperture (mid max apertures) and no MF ring etc.

The interesting thing is that it worked on the exsisting EF mount as the servo and controls were integrated into the lens. Whilst I don;t think Canon will have (m)any legacy users this lens demanding compatability, I think it's evidence enough that a new mount needn't be considered to accomadate zoom lenses.

Of course if they were to move the servo controls to the body then it would be a different story. Personally, as a serious and frequent video user I would prefer the servo controls on the lens body (also restricts extra costs to those who specifically want video friendly kit) but above that I would also like zoom lenses that hold back focus through the zoom range, as many of the EF lenses do not (In this respect the push pull tele designs such as the 100-400 and older 80-200 f2.8 etc are actually brilliant for video)

I suppose the other issue is that if there is on body control then there can be off body control perhaps using something like the established LANC control (which gives prosumer camcorders rec start/stop, focus and zoom controls off camera, manfrotto and a few others make excellent integrated pan bar controllers) however this would require extra contacts between the camera body and lens, which would kind of pith off exsisting EF body and lens users.

Difficult one to call.


However I do like the compact form of this mirrorless. No sign of IS markings or switches on the lens... could they be in the body, or (unlikely) not there at all?


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## Blaze (Jul 21, 2012)

c.d.embrey said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > The DSLR won't be around forever, it will eventually be replaced by some other new technology and I believe that the mirrorless camera is the direction this is all heading.
> ...



I can definitely see mirrored cameras disappearing, but I don't think FF is going anywhere. For fast action low light situations even a theoretical APS-C sensor with perfect quantum efficiency is going to be limited by physics. Photon shot noise is an inherent limitation and the only way to combat it is to gather more light (use faster glass, bigger sensors, or longer exposure times).


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 21, 2012)

@lol


> Then there's also the chance that a future technology renders what we know as photography right now obsolete.



I am most interested in what Lytro are up to. Not viable today. But today never lasts forever.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 21, 2012)

@Blaze


> Photon shot noise is an inherent limitation and the only way to combat it is to gather more light (use faster glass, bigger sensors, or longer exposure times).



True, but think of this... 10 years ago I would use Fuji 1600 film at a very long push, usually after some deliberation.

Until even around 6 years ago on a DSLR something like ISO 800 would be dicing a bit with quality.

Now it's barely an afterthough to shoot at 3200 or even higher if you are using RAW and are prepared to do a bit of work with DPP.

With ISO's in the 100s of 1000's then the question is how much higher can it go?

Canon seem to be looking more at the reduced pixel count for bigger photosites.

Would it be commercial suicide to launch an 8MP full frame with a usable ISO 512'000 or even 1'024'000? With another 5 years tech progress could these even be offered at 18MP or 22MP?


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## moreorless (Jul 21, 2012)

lol said:


> Nothing lasts forever, but they can sure stick around a long time. Look at Leica... they carved out a niche and are doing ok out of it. Even *if* mirrorless takes over the market served by lower level DSLRs, I think there's enough niche for higher end DSLRs to survive for the foreseeable future. If you need digital full frame, there's only 3 real choices at the moment, Canon, Nikon and Leica. I'm leaving out Sony for now as I believe their full frame models are discontinued pending replacement. Canon and Nikon are both rumoured to be bringing out cheaper full frame bodies so that will help too. Maybe, some day in the very distant future, there'll be more mirrorless full frame systems too. But it might be too little too late as "good enough" of smaller sensors will do for the masses, leaving full frame as another Leica-like niche.
> 
> Then there's also the chance that a future technology renders what we know as photography right now obsolete.



My guess is that if a mirrorless FF system does appear it will be more in the image of Leica(mostly primes and maybe a few smaller slow zooms with limated range), theres no way high quality zoom lenses would ever balance well on it.

Also as far as sensor design goes my guess is that optics are going to increasingly become a barrier, the most recent 24MP ASPC sensors can't produce maximum boarder to boarder sharpness on anything but a handful of lenses. Optics arent advacing at anything close to the same rate that sensors are those advances come at the cost of ever higher prices.

If you want boarder to boarder sharp 40 MP images my guess is that your going to need to go FF for the foreseeble future. I think theres a significant market for that kind of resolution aswell as the D800 has showed when the price is at a reasonable level.



> Canon seem to be looking more at the reduced pixel count for bigger photosites.



My guess is that this is partly linked to optics, if you go much beyond 18 MP I think you'll see flaws in alot of there current lens lineup start to stand out much more clearly.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 21, 2012)

@moreorless



> My guess is that this is partly linked to optics, if you go much beyond 18 MP I think you'll see flaws in alot of there current lens lineup start to stand out much more clearly.



If the answer is the frankly disgusting prices canon are charging for their redesigned lenses (24-70 II, 24IS and 28IS) then they can keep the megapixels. Don't need em. And nikon having them doesn't make me want them.

Canon need more lenses in the style of the recent Nikon AF-s G prime lenses. Cheapish. Cheerfulish.

The 40mm f2.8 is more about what Canon should be about.

I gave up pixel peeping a few years ago, as I realised it's not how 'real people' look at images.


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## moreorless (Jul 21, 2012)

Fiya said:


> Also, EVFs and LCDs will never replace optical. For me its so unbelievably different viewing through an EVF compared to an Optical one. I bought my Fuji X100 and X Pro 1 for this reason. Compared to the other offerings, these gave me more of everything I wanted in a small package. Its the same reason shooting with a Hasselblad V series (501 CM) is so 'magical'.



To me this has always seemed like trying to reinvent the wheel, granted I can see that for some people there maybe worthwhile reason to give up the mirror but I find it hard to see an EVF ever offering the same resolution, update and contrast that an OVF can.


----------



## assessora (Jul 21, 2012)

gmrza said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > correct msowsun that´s how i measured it too.
> ...



The Canon SX210 for example has a 16:9 LCD so you get black bars on the side when taking photos. The upside is that you don't get black bars when shooting video.

Anyway, I still think everything points for it to be a 3:2 sensor.


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## AvTvM (Jul 21, 2012)

moreorless said:


> Fiya said:
> 
> 
> > Also, EVFs and LCDs will never replace optical. For me its so unbelievably different viewing through an EVF compared to an Optical one. I bought my Fuji X100 and X Pro 1 for this reason. Compared to the other offerings, these gave me more of everything I wanted in a small package. Its the same reason shooting with a Hasselblad V series (501 CM) is so 'magical'.
> ...



we would not have to give up anything, if only Canopn would give us what we really want:
* compact hi-end mirrorless with improved 5d3 FF sensor - with ultrafast in-plane-phase-detect AF
* highest end hybrid viewfinder - like in Fuji X-Pro1, but "really right"!
* electrified Leica-M mount, backwards compatible with all M-mount lenses
* range of hi-quality but compact AF-fixed focals plus 2 decent standard zooms
* all of it at Leica minus 50% prices


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 21, 2012)

@AvTvM


> we would not have to give up anything, if only Canopn would give us what we really want:



That'll be the royal 'we' then. 

An M mirrorless already exsists.

Given canons recent pricing policy for new lenses I think the Leica may be the cheaper option.

My 2 cents: if you want FF, then use a conventional DSLR. The 5D shell is a good size, compact enough for sunny day photographers, grippy enough for pros working in inclement conditions.

If you want a compact camera (surely the whole point of going mirrorless - ditching the reflex box to make it smaller) it seems counter productive to put in a larger sensor that then requires larger image circles and thus larger lenses.

Yeah the shorty 40 would be great on a full frame mirrorless, anything faster or anything with a zoom, and you are back to DSLR sized lenses. I really do think this is a wind up.


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## AvTvM (Jul 21, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> @AvTvM
> 
> 
> > we would not have to give up anything, if only Canopn would give us what we really want:
> ...



we = all Canonians interested. We are many. 

I want a compact, modern, fully digital hi-end mirrorless sans any mechanical parts ... not an overpriced, completely outdaten 1950s rangefinder camera like the Leica M9.


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## tron (Jul 21, 2012)

pakosouthpark said:


> joke?


To have both 1.6X and 1.85X crop factor sensors is indeed a joke! (and a bad one)
If the sensor was 1.6X they could have used the EF series (or at least the EF-S series...)


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## gmrza (Jul 21, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> I forgot to mention. What if this camera is jpg only?!



That is an entirely realistic possibility. If that is the case, I won't be buying it. Canon did make the mistake of taking RAW capability away from the G series. I think there was a slump in G series sales when they did that.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 21, 2012)

@AvTvM


> we = all Canonians interested. We are many.



If you say so, I've only been using the EOS system since the 1000fn back in 1991 or something similar, so relatively late to the party.

And all I want for Christmas is something small that will work with my good lenses when i want it to, and with a tiny wee pancake when i don't. By work I mean manual controls and video.

Really don't see the point of the M mount on a canon camera... especially if you aren't going to use the Leica lenses on it...

Surely the Canonians you claim to speak on behalf of would like something not so 'overpriced or outdaten'(sic) as a system built round a 1950's mount... 

If the canonians wanted a 1950's mount they would have switched to Nikon, surely?


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 21, 2012)

@msowsun


> Are you joking?
> 
> If not..... This camera has a Canon EF-M mount, not a Leica M mount. It is a new mount designed specifically for a new mirror-less camera called the "EOS M".



No. Have you read back a few posts to get the context? If not, please do so.

I am in no way whatsoever advocating an M mount for a canon camera, and am fully aware that the photographs of the leaked 'EOS-M' doesn't feature an M mount.

AvTvM seems to be suggesting this as a way forward, I am disagreeing.

I guess Monday will give us all lots of answers.


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## AvTvM (Jul 21, 2012)

msowsun said:


> If not..... This camera has a Canon EF-M mount, not a Leica M mount. It is a new mount designed specifically for a new mirror-less camera called the "EOS M".



I for one am not joking. 

I still would like a hi-end FF mirrorless "with everything": very compact fully weathersealed body, excellent sensor, very fast phase-detect AF on the sensor, and an electrified Leica M-mount which would be both compatible with manual focus M-Mount lenses as well as with new nanocoated AF-lenses build specifically for it. At the price of say a 5D3, rather than a Leica M9 (which I do not want for a number of reasaons, most importantly that itr is a manual-focus only mechanical rangefinder, and the only thing digital being its sensor). 

Canon could give me that ... if they only wanted. But, they do not want. Unfortunately.
On the other hand: I do not want consumer-oriented viewfinderless point and shoots like this EF-M. Even if it has an APS-C sensor and not only a puny G1C 4:3 sensor. If Canon won't serve me 

I wont buy their crap. As easy as that. Somebody will eventually build the camera I really want.


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## Otara (Jul 21, 2012)

18-55mm has IS ('Image') written on barrel, strongly suggests no in-body IS? And greater chance of EF/EF-S compatibility somehow. 

Otara


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 21, 2012)

@AvTvM

In this thread a while back the spectre of a digital Contax G was breifly risen.

How about a digital G?

Not being facetious, but I don't think 'canonians' want such a system, I would want a digital version of the G2, but it would be a different tool for a different job. I don't use canon memory cards. I don't use canon tripods. Hell, I don't always use Canon batteries..

Would it be against the doctrine of the canonians to buy off brand, if somebody else makes what 'canonians' actually want?


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## zim (Jul 21, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> msowsun said:
> 
> 
> > If not..... This camera has a Canon EF-M mount, not a Leica M mount. It is a new mount designed specifically for a new mirror-less camera called the "EOS M".
> ...



simply correct!


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## gmrza (Jul 22, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> I still would like a hi-end FF mirrorless "with everything": very compact fully weathersealed body, excellent sensor, very fast phase-detect AF on the sensor, and an electrified Leica M-mount which would be both compatible with manual focus M-Mount lenses as well as with new nanocoated AF-lenses build specifically for it. At the price of say a 5D3, rather than a Leica M9 (which I do not want for a number of reasaons, most importantly that itr is a manual-focus only mechanical rangefinder, and the only thing digital being its sensor).
> 
> Canon could give me that ... if they only wanted. But, they do not want. Unfortunately.
> On the other hand: I do not want consumer-oriented viewfinderless point and shoots like this EF-M. Even if it has an APS-C sensor and not only a puny G1C 4:3 sensor. If Canon won't serve me
> ...



As has been pointed out, it looks like the diameter of the EF-M mount will accomodate a 24x36mm sensor. I don't think the technology is there yet to accomodate all the needs of a user of a full frame mirrorless camera, but I think the balance of probability is that some day we will see it. For now, you are better served with a DSLR. Give it 5 years, and things will look very different, the technology required to deliver in-sensor PDAF and a decent EVF will have evolved. Electronic shutters will probably also develop a lot more in the next few years.


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## AvTvM (Jul 22, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> @AvTvM
> 
> In this thread a while back the spectre of a digital Contax G was breifly risen.
> How about a digital G?



No. The G2 was still a mechanical rangefinder cam - as outdated as any other rangefinder since the 1960s. Only addition was AF. AT the expense of a very limited lens selection, due to lack of M-mount compatibility (back then, Leica M-mount was still patent protected, today it is no longer).

I do NOT want an old-world rangefinder cam. I want a natively digital, hi-performance cam with TTL-viewfinder. And I want it so good that it could fully replace a 5D3 (not necessarily a 1D X though) and add a number of advantages on top: no noise, no vibration, no more mechanical works. 

That means: 
* state-of-the-art EVF or a really really clever hybrid EVF/OVF. 
* electronic shutter with sync times right to 1/8000s.
* Hi-performance AF-system = in-sensor-phase detect AF ... as introduced in Rebel T4i/650D, but even better 
* sizewise I would like it as compact as a Minolta CLE. 
* Pricewise like a 5D3

I know, both Canon and Nikon will not announce it today. But maybe in time before my 7D wears out.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 22, 2012)

@AvTvM



> * sizewise I would like it as compact as a Minolta CLE.



As about as compact as the later (and inferior M6 TTL) then? Or did you forget that the CLE was also a rangefinder? A slight digression, but IMHO any Leica film body user who doesn't use a CLE, isn't interested in photographs from their Leicas, just Leicas. 

It's one of my favourite all time cameras.

But then...

I'm not rejecting rangefinders. A camera 'like' the Contax G2 but with a sensor and a way of using EF lenses would be my ideal.

I suspect though that the high end EOS-M which will inevitably come later on, will be as good as it will get for me.

I don't have low aspirations. Just I already have great cameras. The Mirrorless EOS is only adding to my party.

The fondu set, party 7 and entertainment centre are already set.


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## DarkKnightNine (Jul 22, 2012)

*Useless waste of R&D!*

I hate that Canon seems to lack any innovation of late yet they want to charge high premiums for giving us something that the rest of the industry has already provided except with a Canon badge. The entire concept is insulting to us as their loyal fan base. If it weren't for the fact that I love Canon lenses, I would have moved on years ago as there definitely better bodies on the market.

I hate everything about this camera because I imagine what it could have been. There is no reason Canon (or even Nikon) can't give us a Leica M9 killer (a FF mirrorless camera, with a complete lens system) at a decent price. It may cannibalize their low end DSLR market, but their higher end models like the 5D Mark III and 1DX would still sell well. Besides the industry is moving toward mirrorless anyways so lower end DSLRs have a short life span if market indicators are so be believed.

Canon tries so hard to be like Apple (with secrecy etc...), but they are a far cry from it. Apple skates to where the puck is going and waits for the market to catch up (which is why they charge a premium for their products). Canon skates over the lines that other players have already skated in search for the puck, yet they want to charge a premium because they simply stamped a Canon badge on retreaded tech.

This camera is fugly and it looks like the specs and usability won't be anything spectacular either. I could probably get better pictures out of a 60D with a kit lens, so this camera IMO is useless. If Canon wanted to enter the mirrorless market, they should have done in a way that they could have added something to it or reinvent it. That's what Apple would have done. A FF M9 killer would have made sense. This camera is just a useless waste of time and R&D.


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## DarkKnightNine (Jul 22, 2012)

dilbert said:


> RayValdez360 said:
> 
> 
> > Who is this camera geared towards? Point and shooters that want to feel like they have a small dsrl?
> ...



A 60D and the EF-S 18-200mm IS will accomplish just about the same. There's no need for this camera.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 22, 2012)

@DarkKnightNine


> There is no reason Canon (or even Nikon) can't give us a Leica M9 killer:
> 
> Other than it's not their established market segment, and that the folk who would already buy rangefinders already buy leica rangefinders.



They are as different as chalk and cheese.

I want a mirrorless that is as versatile as a DSLR.



> Apple skates to where the puck is going and waits for the market to catch up (which is why they charge a premium for their products).



No. they charge a premium for unique exclusive OS and user experience. Quite often they get it wrong. Quite often they dumb down. I'm an FCP user and will never be an FCPX user. So my next NLE is Adobe Premiere. My next platform, unless Apple GROW THE 'PUCK' UP is a PC. If apple don't want to give me a decent FCP, or a mac that can run Production suite decently, then they become the weakest link in my chain.

Adobe are doing great things. Flash is dead. But Apple have smelt smart device gold. Apple will not be relevant in production terms in 5 years. Apple will have went from equipment for creators to equipment for consumers,


> Canon skates over the lines that other players have already skated in search for the puck, yet they want to charge a premium because they simply stamped a Canon badge on retreaded tech.



USM lenses. Best AF for last 20 years? First affordable DSLR. First Affordable FF? First affordable 20MP+ camera? 



> This camera is just a useless waste of time and R&D.



Nah, it will sell to loads of folk who trust canon but who aren't that into the specifics of working a camera.

It might not be what the enthusisast want. But they are a small segment already served well by the EOS range.

The PRo's wont want it. (No grip) 

Lets face it. A mirrorless camera that respects legacy users. Olympus PEN (not OM) Nikon 1(Not F) Sony NEX (Not MAF) Samsung (Not K) Pentax Q (not K) if the canon can take a fully functional EF lens, even via an adaptor then it is ahead of everybody else (Sony get close, but no cigar)


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 22, 2012)

@DarkKnightNine


> A 60D and the EF-S 18-200mm IS will accomplish just about the same. There's no need for this camera.



Sandra Bullocks.

An EF-s 18-200 IS accomplishes very little except convenience.
And -sorry 60D owners- a 60D doesn't tick that many unique boxes either.

Mediocre paired with mediocre makes no benchmark, especially at the mediocre value each offers individually, let alone combined. A camera trying to be for everyman ending up being for no man.


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## DarkKnightNine (Jul 22, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> msowsun said:
> 
> 
> > If not..... This camera has a Canon EF-M mount, not a Leica M mount. It is a new mount designed specifically for a new mirror-less camera called the "EOS M".
> ...



I'm certainly with you on that. Not so sure about the M mount, but the rest of the specs are dead on to what I would also like to see from a large optical company like Canon. Especially since they had years to evaluate the market and produce something truly fantastic. This camera is just ridiculous as an entry to an already well established market.


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## AvTvM (Jul 22, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> @AvTvM
> I don't have low aspirations. Just I already have great cameras. The Mirrorless EOS is only adding to my party.



Somewhat different take here. I am an amateur. I only have a 7D which I like a lot. Plus a Powershot S-95 as "smaller, go everywhere/family cam". Unfortunately I hate the S-95 in almost every aspect, although I know, it is still one of the better compact cams on the market. I do not like to use a LCD-only cam in stretched-out hands. 
On the other hand, the 7D (plus lens) is not huge, but still too bulky in many situations. Currently I mostly use the 7D unless size is a real problem, if it is, I take the iPhone ... rather than the S-95. And I never take videos (except occasionally casual 5sec-clips with the iphone) and will never do so. Stills only for me.

So I am keenly interested in a hi-end compact FF-cam that matches or beats a DSLR like the 5D3 in every way [except OVF] and has additional benefits of a mirrorless cam [no noise, no vibration] on top. At a price not higher than a 5D3. I would use it to complement my 7D and possibly even replace it. 

Much less desirable to me would be a compact APS-C mirrorless with a max. 7D-ish price tag. If it matches or beats (in terms of IQ and control) my 7D, I might buy it as second body or even as replacement. It still needs to have a TTL viewfinder. 

I am totally uninterested in a consumer-mirrorless and/or in a sensor smaller than APS-C and/or with 4:3 or 16:9 native sensor format and/or with insufficient responsiveness/controls/ergonomics. 



* sizewise: I know, the Minolta CLE was a rangefinder cam. But at 124.5 x 77.5 x 32 mm it is significantly smaller than a Leica M9 [139 x 80 x 37 mm]. And a lot lighter at 380g (CLE) vs. 600g (M9P). And still a FF camera. And compatible with most M-mount lenses from any maker. That's why I keep using it as a reference point. Because some people mistakenly believe, a FF mirrorless would have to be "bigger / too big".


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 22, 2012)

> So I am keenly interested in a hi-end compact FF-cam that matches or beats a DSLR like the 5D3 in every way [except OVF] and has additional benefits of a mirrorless cam [no noise, no vibration] on top. At a price not higher than a 5D3. I would use it to complement my 7D and possibly even replace it.



Why then haven't you got a 5D3? You want full frame? You want 5D3 performance? And yet you presently settle for a scabby auld 7D (as do I)



> * sizewise: I know, the Minolta CLE was a rangefinder cam. But at 124.5 x 77.5 x 32 mm it is significantly smaller than a Leica M9 [139 x 80 x 37 mm]. And a lot lighter at 380g (CLE) vs. 600g (M9P). And still a FF camera. And compatible with most M-mount lenses from any maker. That's why I keep using it as a reference point. Because some people mistakenly believe, a FF mirrorless would have to be "bigger / too big".



I Never compared the CLE to an M9. I compared it to an M6.
The CLE had many caveats to compatability and was best used within the 28-90 range, not exclusively with the minolta lenses, but certainly within that range. Purely for the brightscreen etchings. The CLE was different from the CL in that it wasn't so much a colaboration as a competitor. 

Try using any rangefinder with anything below a 28mm and above a 135mm. Not quite so appealing.

It can be done. Just it can be done better without an M mount.


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## AvTvM (Jul 22, 2012)

DarkKnightNine said:


> I'm certainly with you on that. Not so sure about the M mount, but the rest of the specs are dead on to what I would also like to see from a large optical company like Canon. Especially since they had years to evaluate the market and produce something truly fantastic. This camera is just ridiculous as an entry to an already well established market.



Exactly! It is really about time, Canon comes out with a truly innovative and absolutely amazing camera. 

It is beyond me, why they are coming last to the mirrorless market and then still with only a dumbed-down Rebel T4i/650D in a smaller box without mirror and viewfinder and even more severly limited photographic controls. That will NOT cut it. At least not with me.


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## DarkKnightNine (Jul 22, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> @DarkKnightNine
> 
> 
> > There is no reason Canon (or even Nikon) can't give us a Leica M9 killer:
> ...




There is so much wrong with your arguments that I won't even bother to pick them a part one-by-one because we could be here all day. I will just say two things to sum it all up.

1. There are many people here (who like me) feel this camera is crap as a first entry into a market from a company like Canon so you seem to be in a minority.

2. You also seem to pick up your paychecks from Canon. Blind fanboyism has never helped any company make better products.

And I know what you're thinking....
So before we even go down that road, NO I AM NOT an Apple fanboy but at least I see them trying to innovate (even today). You keep mentioning Canon innovations of the past as a basis of your arguments. My counter-argument would be Canon "What have you done for me lately?"

Overcharge me for 5D Mark III and subsequent lens updates. Overcharge me for the C300 and C500 that are really no better that other cinema cameras of equal quality that came before them (or even after them) at more reasonable prices.

I directed multimillion dollar musicals like Cats, Lion King etc... when I audition dancers, actors, singers I don't rely on videos of past work, I want to see what they can do for me today. I suppose you live in a Canon past and shroud yourself with Canon goodness. I live in the now and tomorrow and want to see them shock and amaze me. We just have different perspectives. Let's just leave it at that. Canon of late has done very little to amaze anyone (with the exception of outrageous pricing).


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## AvTvM (Jul 22, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> Why then haven't you got a 5D3? You want full frame? You want 5D3 performance? And yet you presently settle for a scabby auld 7D (as do I)


3 simple reasons: 
1. I am more often reach-limited than IQ-limited. 
2. I will rather drop dead than pay even one cent more for a 5D3 than what a Nikon D800 costs. 
3. Even more importantly, I am very hesitant to buy another bulky DSLR if tomorrow I might get the same goodies in a Minolta-CLE sized package. 




paul13walnut5 said:


> I Never compared the CLE to an M9. I compared it to an M6.


Yes, I saw that. But I do not care in the least for the M6 ... its just another old manual, mechanical, overpriced Leica rangefinder cam. I am only looking at digital cams, therefore the M9, which is a FF-.sensored digital cam ... albeit a very unappealing and weirdo one to me. 



paul13walnut5 said:


> Try using any rangefinder with anything below a 28mm and above a 135mm. Not quite so appealing.


This is one of many reasons why I never even considered using a rangefinder. I loathe them. Except for the compact size of the cams and many of the fixed focal lenses. 



paul13walnut5 said:


> It can be done. Just it can be done better without an M mount.


the beauty of using the Leica M-mount and add the necessary wiring and chip to it to be 100% compatible with Canon's EOS/EF-lens protocol would be that we could use all/many of those wonderful M-mount lenses in addition to any wonderful AF-lenses [EF-M] Canon might eventually bring to market. And of course even in case of an M-mount I would still have liked to see a Canon EF-to-EM adapter ["electrified extension tube, of approx. 22mm width] so we could also use all EF-lenses. But again, using "M" will not happen. It was just an idea. I would also buy a hi-end Canon FF mirrorless meeting all my other criteria if it had any lens mount ... as long as there is an EF-adapter.


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## DarkKnightNine (Jul 22, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> > So I am keenly interested in a hi-end compact FF-cam that matches or beats a DSLR like the 5D3 in every way [except OVF] and has additional benefits of a mirrorless cam [no noise, no vibration] on top. At a price not higher than a 5D3. I would use it to complement my 7D and possibly even replace it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude are you just here to pick on anyone who doesn't like this camera? 
It sure seems like it.
People wanted and expected more from Canon's entry. It's as simple as that. Don't know why you can't seem to get your thick head wrapped around that concept. Stop picking on people, you're becoming very annoying, even trollish.

Hell it doesn't even have to be Canon. In this day and age, I think it's reasonable for people to expect more bang for their buck. There is stiff competition in any market and we as consumers have a right to demand more from any company entering a market to compete for our VERY hard earned money.


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## itsnotmeyouknow (Jul 22, 2012)

*Re: Useless waste of R&D!*



DarkKnightNine said:


> I hate that Canon seems to lack any innovation of late yet they want to charge high premiums for giving us something that the rest of the industry has already provided except with a Canon badge. The entire concept is insulting to us as their loyal fan base. If it weren't for the fact that I love Canon lenses, I would have moved on years ago as there definitely better bodies on the market.
> 
> I hate everything about this camera because I imagine what it could have been. There is no reason Canon (or even Nikon) can't give us a Leica M9 killer (a FF mirrorless camera, with a complete lens system) at a decent price. It may cannibalize their low end DSLR market, but their higher end models like the 5D Mark III and 1DX would still sell well. Besides the industry is moving toward mirrorless anyways so lower end DSLRs have a short life span if market indicators are so be believed.
> 
> ...



If Lion is anything to go by, Apple would have disabled all the useful things and added extra steps to things. I have recently upgraded to Lion and apart from one or two things, I'm regretting it. Apple would also have auto everything so don't imagine for a second that Apple doing it would be any better. Apple are great at PR above all else.

If you think that Canon is going to sacrifice the lower end DSLR for high performance you are barking up the wrong tree altogether. It's biggest market of DSLR is the low end DSLR, not the semi pro/pro models. I think too many people are expecting way too much. I too would love a FF mirror less with all bells and whistles. If you put the full-size full resolution sensor in it, and use a smaller lens, then you are going to be sacrificing image quality or having to use a large lens against a small body which will be unwieldy and unbalanced. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the sensor is the G1X sensor. A bonus if its a 18mp APS-C. I agree with those that say the G1X is overpriced - Even more so in the UK where it is £700 (about $1100). I have to wonder where Canon are going to price these. It has to be better than the Sony NEX 5 if it is to price it similarly.


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## gmrza (Jul 22, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> Lets face it. A mirrorless camera that respects legacy users. Olympus PEN (not OM) Nikon 1(Not F) Sony NEX (Not MAF) Samsung (Not K) Pentax Q (not K) if the canon can take a fully functional EF lens, even via an adaptor then it is ahead of everybody else (Sony get close, but no cigar)



That summarises what I'd like - I'm looking for something compact, that can act as a second body to a 5DII/III or 7D, and also is an option for traveling light, which I can mount on a gorillapod. My wishlist is: manual mode, RAW, connection for cable release, EF/EF-S adapter, compatibility with E-TTL II Speedlites. A GPS would be a nice-to-have feature. The lack of external controls is a little bit of a concern, but I can probably live with that - given that this camera would always play second fiddle to a DSLR. I'm still in two minds about the apparent lack of an optional EVF.

I have come to terms with the fact that the sensor will be no better than what the current crop of APS-C Canons can offer. I think Canon is holding back its new sensor technology.


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## mjbehnke (Jul 22, 2012)

I do see one thing I like about the lens that I wish Canon would do to all the lenses...... Did you notice the Lens cap? Has the squeeze grips like Tamron.


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## kapanak (Jul 22, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> Lets face it. A mirrorless camera that respects legacy users. Olympus PEN (not OM) Nikon 1(Not F) Sony NEX (Not MAF) Samsung (Not K) Pentax Q (not K) if the canon can take a fully functional EF lens, even via an adaptor then it is ahead of everybody else (Sony get close, but no cigar)



Could you clarify what is wrong with Sony's solution to adapting A-mount lenses? 
They providers adapters, the second of which comes with PDAF SLT.


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## c.d.embrey (Jul 22, 2012)

mjbehnke said:


> I do see one thing I like about the lens that I wish Canon would do to all the lenses...... Did you notice the Lens cap? Has the squeeze grips like Tamron.



Don't you mean like *Nikon* and *Sony* ??? All the lenses I've bought for my *Nikon* and *Sony* cameras have come with squeeze grips


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## Hillsilly (Jul 22, 2012)

RayValdez360 said:


> Who is this camera geared towards? Point and shooters that want to feel like they have a small dsrl?



If the pricing is acceptable, it autofocuses with EF lenses and it has an EVF, I bet most buyers will be current Canon DSLR users who want something smaller and unobtrusive (but high IQ) when going to parties, the beach, pubs, mountain biking etc etc. It will be the people on this forum that snap them up. 

And I think Canon got it right by releasing the budget model first. Right now, few people are going to drop $2500 for a mirrorless FF when they've just bought (or are saving up towards) a feature packed 5Diii. But if there's an APS-C one for around $400-$600, most of us will consider it very tempting. Very, very tempting.

I currently use a Olympus PEN when my Mamiya medium format or 1Ds aren't really appropriate. (And I know many other use Sony's for the same reason). I love my little Olympus, but I'd drop it in a flash if the new Canon satisfies my criteria (reasonable price, EF compatibility and EVF).


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## peederj (Jul 22, 2012)

I am fully in agreement with those (e.g. Mr. Reid) that say that mirrorless is a strictly high-end opportunity and is not something for the consumer crowd. Because it is not pocketable, and changing lenses is just a pain and expense...for what? The consumer can't tell the difference in image quality, and if they did care so much about that, they would...go high end.

So the whole experiment with "prosumer" mirrorless compacts has run its course and what would be interesting is high-end offerings that are a bit lighter and more compact than the full-on DSLRs without sacrificing too much in the way of IQ. Canon did not grasp this in time it is clear. I doubt they will sell many EOS M's or EF-M lenses; the entire R&D investment might not even be recouped. The Sony RX100 already is far more interesting to me, and if it did 24p I would have ordered one already (especially if it was waterproof). I may order one yet just for slo-mo. But the expense stops there...no more lenses or anything else, it just is what it is.

So scrap the compact mount, scrap STM, just focus on getting high-end IQ and video features down in size and price running off EF and EF-S native mounts. Give this peanut gallery a camera it will genuinely love...price included...from day 1. Give away razors, sell blades...a camera that's truly great will generate a lot of high-end lens sales to pay off its R&D. Hoping for us to be so stupid as to buy a bunch of redundant cheapo lenses to run on a new mini mount ain't gonna work.

At least they can tell the shareholders they tried to climb on the sputtering bandwagon (albeit late and half-heartedly).


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## Flake (Jul 22, 2012)

I have to agree that this camera is not going to be for enthusiasts of any sort, and those of us wanting such are going to have to wait for a later model which has been mentioned in the rumours.

This camera is going to have to be cheap to sell in any numbers, the G1X is a fine camera with a very good lens, it's highly doubtful that the M camera will better it, and as it requires accessories such as a flash it's not going to be as flexible.

Who will buy this camera? The ignorant with too much money? not many of them around now, and I can see a colossal flop A La Nikon V1 which alas they appear to have copied. I would be waiting until a higher end model comes along, but Canon have made such a hash of this that they may well decide this market is not for them, and never release a better model.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 22, 2012)

@kapanak



> Could you clarify what is wrong with Sony's solution to adapting A-mount lenses?
> They providers adapters, the second of which comes with PDAF SLT.



Caveats and operational issues on first versions, lousy AF based on adapted cameras on subsequent editions.
Obviously we have yet to see Canon's implementation, if indeed there is one, but I can only hope it's a bit better than Sony's, which was, as I previously stated 'close, but no cigar'

The on chip phase detection AF present on the 650 t4i might be the saviour, if implemented here. Whats the point of adapting your nice fast USM primes or ring type L's if you lose the focus speed?

@DarkKnightNine



> Dude are you just here to pick on anyone who doesn't like this camera?
> It sure seems like it.
> People wanted and expected more from Canon's entry. It's as simple as that. Don't know why you can't seem to get your thick head wrapped around that concept. Stop picking on people, you're becoming very annoying, even trollish.



Dude yourself pal! the discussion is about the merits of the camera as leaked. It's really funny because we know next to nothing about it yet and are discussing hypotheticals. I have one opinion, others have different opinions. To debase the discussion by accusing me of being a troll is immature. I'm standing my ground.

As the debate about using a M mount on a canon camera is entirely hypothetical I am confident others won't take my critique personally. Reading back, those with contrary opinions seem to be holding their own without your stepping in.

Read my posts and re-assess if you think I like this camera... I don't. I think it's potentially a first step in the right direction, but the controls are either going to be touch screen (urghhhh, didn't like on Panasonic GF2 or 3) or simply not going to be there at all (I can see canons logic, but I would hope for a more serious mirrorless camera to come in the future)

Your comment:


> Canon skates over the lines that other players have already skated in search for the puck, yet they want to charge a premium because they simply stamped a Canon badge on retreaded tech.



Is either historically ignorant, or is painting with a very very fine brush to suit a single arguement. It is not my experience of using Canons EOS system. Canon don't always get it right. I am not a fanboy. Where somebody else makes something better I'll buy that (Currently debating a c300 or a sony f700) 

You also resort to insults:



> You also seem to pick up your paychecks from Canon. Blind fanboyism has never helped any company make better products.



I wish. But you have absolutely no basis to make this remark. This is a canon forum. The clue is in the title.
You may meet other folk who use canon's gear here and quite like using it and perhaps even like talking about using it. If you make factually incorrect and inflamatory comments some of us may correct or defend.



> So before we even go down that road, NO I AM NOT an Apple fanboy but at least I see them trying to innovate (even today).



My recent experience with Apple has been poor. The main USP for me using a mac was FCP software, which I've used for 10 years. Apple dump it. I like the Mac OS, I like the mac platform, so what are my options?
Can I run Production Suite on a mac? Well, yes, but to run it properly (with a cuda card) I'll need a MacPro tower (even with recent revisions about 3 years behind PC's, no USB3, no bluray, no sandybridge) with another grand spent on top for the compatable card. So from my perspective, spending my cash on something that I can work with... Apple have let me down.

The iphone is great. My Macbook plods on after 6 years and can still be used for offlining in the field. I don't really get the ipad, but lots of folk do, great. I've never been a mac fanboy, but I have enjoyed using their products. That your user experience is different from mine is the nature of the beast. It doesn't make you a fanboy or me a troll. 

Finally...


> Don't know why you can't seem to get your thick head wrapped around that concept.



Is that really called for? That kind of insult really undermines anything else you've said. Adults disagree. Adults discuss. Stop throwing your toys out the pram. The person resorting to insults here is you, that is troll-ish.


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## zim (Jul 22, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> scabby auld 7D



;D ;D ;D That gave me a laugh wonder if that translated across the pond


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## DarkKnightNine (Jul 22, 2012)

dilbert said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > DarkKnightNine said:
> ...






Sad but seemingly true. It's always the guys in 2nd, 3rd or no place doing all of the innovating within any given market. Canon just sits on top raking in all of our cash at inflated prices with their legion of fanboys to shield them from any real criticism. At times I can be one of them as they do get a lot of things right and I happen to love their lens selection above all others.


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## DarkKnightNine (Jul 22, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> @kapanak
> 
> 
> 
> ...






I agree with a lot of your assements about Apple and I too feel let down by their blatant disregard for their "Pro" market, but I still feel like they at least make attempts to innovate whenever, wherever they can. If they enter a new market, they attempt to turn it on it's ear rather than just doing the bare minimum to be profitable. 


My apologies for my personal attack. Perhaps I was just having a bad day and of course you are very much entitled to your own opinions. It just seemed like you were being overly defensive about this product whenever anyone had anything negative to say about it. Anyways, like you said this is a forum and we should be able to discuss our opinions without personal attacks and for that, I was in the wrong. So I offer my apology to you Sir.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 22, 2012)

@DarkKnightNine

Accepted.


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## AvTvM (Jul 22, 2012)

I definitely enjoyed the exchange of opinions we had in this thread! Also glad to see, that we are back in "civilized discussion territrory".  

Now that the specs are "inoffically" out, we can all move over to the new thread: 
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=8162.msg149456#new


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