# EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 11, 2014)

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<p>A few bits of information about the possible replacement to the EOS 7D are trickling in, although there’s nothing I would call concrete.</p>
<p>We’re told again that the camera is being tested with some kind of a “hybrid viewfinder”, no details were given. Although, it’s possible the feature doesn’t make it into the production camera. A brand new image sensor will appear in the camera, with a resolution just under 25mp.</p>
<p>The camera will have dual memory card slots, CF and SD. Retaining CF is a big deal and will make a lot of people happy.</p>
<p>The camera is said to have the most features at the software level of any Canon DSLR ever, though there were no examples of what could possibly be new. I do agree this camera will have to be extremely feature rich to be successful.</p>
<p>It doesn’t feel like the hype machine has started yet, so I do not think the camera is “around the corner”.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Pitbullo (Mar 11, 2014)

The 7D2 will set the tone for the future Canon DSLRs. I won't buy the 7D2 myself, but feature and technologies shown in this camera will eventually come in other models. Perhaps we can see what 5D4 will bring?


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## TrabimanUK (Mar 11, 2014)

With the long wait, I'm erring towards a 5DIII, as time is pressing. 

Unless the 7DII can rail off 10fps+ for a good 100+ images (jpeg) and has an IQ in the 5D/5DII arena, and a AF system surpassing the 5DIII, then I'll settle for 6fps ad infinitum (jpeg), great IQ and AF of the 5DIII.

By the time the 7DII makes it into the world, I doubt there'll be much price differnce, like the 5DII and the 7D when it was launched.


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## Niki (Mar 11, 2014)

TrabimanUK said:


> With the long wait, I'm erring towards a 5DIII, as time is pressing.
> 
> Unless the 7DII can rail off 10fps+ for a good 100+ images (jpeg) and has an IQ in the 5D/5DII arena, and a AF system surpassing the 5DIII, then I'll settle for 6fps ad infinitum (jpeg), great IQ and AF of the 5DIII.
> 
> By the time the 7DII makes it into the world, I doubt there'll be much price differnce, like the 5DII and the 7D when it was launched.



+1

they have so many other cameras and they don't want to effect sales of the 1dc…that's why I think it's taking so long…(plus all these other cameras are coming out with new video features)


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## HurtinMinorKey (Mar 11, 2014)

video: So this thing will definitely shoot compressed 4K, and if we're lucky it will shoot 2K raw (or higher resolution in short bursts).


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## Don Haines (Mar 11, 2014)

Niki said:


> TrabimanUK said:
> 
> 
> > With the long wait, I'm erring towards a 5DIII, as time is pressing.
> ...



The "protection" argument sounds great..... but the reality is that even now, almost 5 years out of date, the 7D outsells the 1DX and the 1DC... The market for high end FF cameras is small and the buyers are after very specific features. There is NOTHING you can do to a crop camera that will have a significant effect on that market. Even if the 7D2 came out with some new magic technology that gave better IQ than a 1DX, what would happen with those people? The would immediatly buy a 7D2 and the instant a 1DX2 came out with that new technology, they would buy the 1DX2.... and Canon sells two cameras. If they "cripple" the 7D2 to "protect" other cameras, they loose sales...


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## seamonster (Mar 11, 2014)

Just re-use the 5DIII body shell (and get rid of the pop up flash). Saves on production costs.


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## jeffa4444 (Mar 11, 2014)

I would tend to agree they will not cripple the 7DMKII they didnt with the original camera which had some better features over the 5DMKII for example it also enabled it to have a long life. 
The bigger issue is how close the DSLRs get to the Cinema EOS series in video quality so far the 1Dc with 8bit 4:2:2 Motion Jpeg will not trouble them but at some point Canon will need to provide lower compression and at least 10bit or more realistically 12bit 4:4:4 / 4:2:2 Raw, even the new Panasonic GH4 offers 10 bit 4:2:2 on its micro 4/3rds camera (external) whilst still 8bit internal.


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## J.R. (Mar 11, 2014)

Oooh ... Nessie's been sighted again? Great!


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## drjlo (Mar 11, 2014)

Video, video, video!? 

For me to consider 7D II, its new (a long awaited) ~25 MP sensor would at least have to match the IQ of crop bodies like Fuji X-T1 or Nikon D7200. It's just been way too long of a wait for Canon IQ improvement. 

Or...Canon can up the ante by introducing in-body RT controller (sigh... I know it won't happen).


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## MintChocs (Mar 11, 2014)

It won't sell as well as the original 7D unless it is as revolutionary as the original when that came out.


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## nvettese (Mar 11, 2014)

If this camera is as revolutionary as the original, I think this will sell just as good, if not better. As mentioned previously, the original is still selling very well, so I am hopeful that the Mark II version will exceed our expectations, or at least hold us up until they can use a Firmware upgrade to enable new features for a few more years. 

Currently, I am using a 20D, which is a great camera for me, so the 7D MkII will be great no matter what it is.


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 11, 2014)

I beg to differ. The 7d is very dated by todays standards. Ff models of today blow its doors off. I would say it will be successful regardless of how feature rich it is. A high quality crop sensored camera with modern af and noise levels will fill the gap for those wanting the extra reach and are not happy with a ff solution.

The sooner it comes to market the sooner we can retire these old 7Ds for our kids to use. May it RIP soon!


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## unfocused (Mar 11, 2014)

I have been thinking about this lately and am going to make a controversial prediction:

I believe the 7DII will have the highest resolution of any Canon DSLR and I think it is entirely possible that future APS-C bodies may actually end up with more resolution than high-end full frame DSLRs.

Reasoning: The strength of the APS-C format (in addition to cost) is the perceived extra "reach" of the 1.6 crop factor. Crop sensors will never match the high ISO performance or dynamic range of a full frame sensor. But, what Canon demonstrated with the 70D is that they could increase the resolution of the sensor without sacrificing ISO performance or dynamic range.

The higher resolution 70D sensor performs at least as well as the 7D sensor in these areas. And, some argue it actually performs slightly better. 

I am fully aware of the argument that a full frame sensor can be cropped to the same framing as an APS-C sensor without losing much perceived resolution.

But, that argument breaks down in cases where the photographer is distance limited and must crop the crop, so to speak. I'll leave the math to those who are more adept than I am, but just point out that a 24mp APS-C sensor can have half of its pixels cropped out and still produce a 12mp image. 

Focusing on higher resolution at the top end of the APS-C line allows manufacturers to better differentiate the two formats for enthusiasts and professionals. Both formats function just fine for general purposes, but if you want to shoot under the most challenging lighting situations, full frame is the better bet. If you are a portrait or studio photographer shooting under controlled conditions, the larger format is better.

But, if you are a nature photographer or a sports photographer and you need to reach as deeply into the scene as possible without getting eaten by a bear, drowned chasing waterfowl or crushed by a 250 lb player, and need to do it at 8-12 fps, then you need a high-resolution, high performance crop frame camera that has sufficient headroom for you to crop even further when necessary.

I've long said Canon and Nikon don't want to convert everyone to full frame, they want instead to sell everyone two bodies. One way to do that is to play to the strengths of each format and differentiate them at the high end.

We all know that the worldwide camera market is struggling. Nikon and Canon need to find ways to increase their sales. It's far easier to get an existing customer to buy more than it is to find a new customer. Differentiating the two DSLR formats offers the hope of greatly expanding sales using the existing base of customers.


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## SevenDUser (Mar 11, 2014)

Anyone else sick and tired of seeing threads about 7D MK II ???


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## candyman (Mar 11, 2014)

SevenDUser said:


> Anyone else sick and tired of seeing threads about 7D MK II ???




Well CR1's about the 7D MKII are getting boring : 


Give us CR3! 8)


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## Robert Welch (Mar 11, 2014)

@UNFOCUSED, that is an interesting assessment, I think you have some good points.

Yes, these topics on the 7D2 are getting old, but that's only because it's taking so long for the camera to come out. Fair to say it's a highly anticipated camera, we'll see if it lives up to that anticipation. I find the report that it will have dual card slots is interesting, it will be the first non-pro camera (other than the 5D3) that Canon has included dual card slots. I guess if it does, then Canon will consider it the equal of the 5D3, or maybe what I'd call the 'Quasi-pro' level camera, higher than the pro-sumer, but not quite top-o-line model. Anyway, that does pose the question, who is this camera for? We'll see then it's released, and what the camera has included. There is a wide range of possible end users Canon could see for this camera, and I will be very interested to see who that winds up being.


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## Don Haines (Mar 11, 2014)

unfocused said:


> I have been thinking about this lately and am going to make a controversial prediction:
> 
> I believe the 7DII will have the highest resolution of any Canon DSLR and I think it is entirely possible that future APS-C bodies may actually end up with more resolution than high-end full frame DSLRs.
> 
> ...



Makes sense to me....

Give me a 25-30 megapixel crop camera for more pixels on target and give me a 16-20 megapixel FF camera for 3 stops better ISO performance... I would rather have two good tools than one mediocre general purpose tool.


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## Obi-Wan-YJ (Mar 11, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> The camera will have dual memory card slots, CF and SD. Retaining CF is a big deal and will make a lot of people happy.



How likely is this to actually happen? The 1D and 5D lines are the only ones to have dual card slots. Even the 6D uses just SD cards, which I can't stand due to how slow and flimsy they are.

I've got a 7D and 50D, and will probably replace the 50D with a 7D2 when it arrives. I'm also getting tight on CF card space, and would like to buy a new 32GB CF card before a trip in a few weeks... but not if it'll be obsolete with the new 7D2. I was really hoping we'd have a more concrete announcement by now.

Given than the 6D now uses SD cards, how likely is it that the 7D2 will use CF cards? Will they abandon the 7D1 users and cater to those upgrading from consumer bodies by using SD cards? I'm sure speed is also a consideration, since that will be a big selling point of the 7D2 over the 70D or 6D.


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## AmbientLight (Mar 11, 2014)

Obi-Wan-YJ said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > The camera will have dual memory card slots, CF and SD. Retaining CF is a big deal and will make a lot of people happy.
> ...



The choice between using CF or SD cards will be determined not only by how much this rumored camera will be positioned for professional users, but the maturity of SD cards as determined by Canon. If this camera will indeed get CF and SD card slots, this will make it comparable to 5D Mark III, which I don't expect it will be. So in my opinion this CR1 rumor is not likely to become a reality, because as you stated the 6D uses just SD cards, so the 7D will likely share that trait, if it is considered as being somewhat restricted in comparison to a 5D Mark III. This logic may not be found appealing by many, but Canon may nevertheless use such kind of a distinction in card support.


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## Don Haines (Mar 11, 2014)

AmbientLight said:


> Obi-Wan-YJ said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...


Why can't the 7D2 be a pro-level APS-C camera?
The 7D was pro-level... Why not the 7D2?

and please don't say "because it's not FF", Pro-level is a whole lot more than sensor....


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## Tugela (Mar 11, 2014)

AmbientLight said:


> Obi-Wan-YJ said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



The 5D will likely be getting an upgrade to mark 4 by the end of the year or early 2015, so I doubt they are going to cripple the new 7D in order not to compete with an older 5D model. The 7D is the top of the line crop sensor camera in their lineup, so if it is released it will probably come with state of the art features for that sensor size. Remember, the features included in it have to be sufficient for the camera to remain competitive in its market space for three years, not a few months.

In all probability the 7D2 will outperform the 5D3 with regard to pretty everything except sensor crop size until the mark 4 arrives.


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## Don Haines (Mar 11, 2014)

I find the "hybrid viewfinder" to be very intriguing.... put dual-pixel AF and hybrid viewfinder together and what do you get? Do you end up with 20 million more AF points than the 1DX? Do you get to recognize objects and track them? Is AFMA toast?

The 70D is the tip of the iceberg..... it barely scratches the capabilities of Dual Pixel... there are interesting times ahead!


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## dufflover (Mar 11, 2014)

I'm not sensing anything too special. Canon "got lucky" when Nikon left the D7100 shot buffer crippled otherwise feature-wise, it has the better sensor, still reasonable fps and decent AF.
Given the time Canon have had, I would say it's an expectation that it's finally time some of their lagging areas like DR are brought up to date. To put it more bluntly, it would be very disappointing (as some people were in the 70D) if now it wasn't matching the current competition of crop resolution (~24MP) with not-so-obvious noise patterns and higher DR (surely at least equal to the current competition, already years old)


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## MichaelHodges (Mar 11, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Why can't the 7D2 be a pro-level APS-C camera?
> The 7D was pro-level... Why not the 7D2?
> 
> and please don't say "because it's not FF", Pro-level is a whole lot more than sensor....




"Pro" has always meant "top IQ", IMHO. This is even more apparent in the smart phone era.


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## wickidwombat (Mar 11, 2014)

since getting the tamron 150-600 i'm actually interested in this camera now ;D


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## old-pr-pix (Mar 12, 2014)

Hopefully Canon is looking at competition like the Pentax K-3 and deciding which features it needs to match or better. I'm not trying to sell Pentax here (or get booed off the forum), but which of these K-3 features would you be willing to give-up in a new 7DII? I'm hoping they are all there and perhaps bested by the 7DII.

K-3: 24.3 megapixel, 8.3 frames/sec, ISO 51,200, 27 point AF w/25 cross type sensors, focus peaking, fully weather sealed, dual cards (both SD... Canon can do better here), switchable pseudo-AA filter (interesting to see how well this works in the real world), 3.2 inch LCD, pop-up flash (only 1/180th sync. ... come on, Olympus can do 1/320 with their built-in). Oh BTW, cost is $1295 body only. (This feature I really like... doubt Canon is thinking that way however!)


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## bardamu (Mar 12, 2014)

In September last year my 550D - my first and only DSLR at the time - suffered a malfunction and I needed to get something new. I had 80k actuations on it so it wasn't a big deal. Cam still works fine in most respects, but it was no longer up to being my only camera.

When I enquired at a local camera store about a 7D the guy said to me "What would you want a 7D for? The 7D mark ii will come out soon, you should wait." At which point I mentioned that I needed to keep shooting and, erm, what was I supposed to shoot with in the meantime??

That struck me as 1) a very strange thing for a salesperson to say and 2) (since I monitor CR) probably inaccurate. Good thing I didn't take his advice and sit around waiting for the 7D ii - 6 months later and still nothing on the horizon. Nikon Rumors just noted that the D400 is also thought to be a long way off, in fact they might just do a D7200 instead. I now have a 70D, but I might still be interested in a 7D ii depending on how it turns out (if at all).


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## pwp (Mar 12, 2014)

unfocused said:


> ...the strength of the APS-C format (in addition to cost) is the perceived extra "reach" of the 1.6 crop factor. Crop sensors will never match the high ISO performance or dynamic range of a full frame sensor. But, what Canon demonstrated with the 70D is that they could increase the resolution of the sensor without sacrificing ISO performance or dynamic range...


Canon will find plenty of sales to photographers who are genuinely missing the somewhat lamented x1.3 APS-H sensor. Our 1D Mk3 and Mk4 bodies are reaching astronomical shutter counts, a premium, high performance 7DII would go a long way to satisfying the APS-H mob. They'll never last as long as a 1-Series which routinely run perfectly and reliably with several hundred thousand clicks on the clock, but at half or one-third the price...who cares? If half the rumored features show up on the final shipping 7DII, I'll probably get two of them in the first week.

-pw


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## bardamu (Mar 12, 2014)

For people wanting 24MP in the 7D ii to match Nikon etc, remember that Canon's crop-sensor crop factor is 1.6 whilst Nikon's is 1.5. So at about 21MP the Canon would already have the same pixel density.

I wonder if Canon would ever consider moving to a 1.5 sensor to match Nikon and Pentax, if only for the 7D ii and maybe 80D lines. They could release some version ii EF-S lenses with a larger image circle.

Wait, version ii EF-S lenses?? Maybe in the year 2035...


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## Marauder (Mar 12, 2014)

The two card slots make sense, especially given that the 70D took some flak for not having dual card slots. Moreover, it makes sense that the 7D II will have CF card. I always smile a bit when I read predictions that the 7D II will "not have this" or "not have that" because...well...the 6D doesn't have it and it's full-frame and therefore "better." 

In point of fact, the 7D II and the 6D (like the 7D and the 5D II before them) aren't targeting the same shooter--at all. The 7D blew the 5 D II away in terms of AF, burst speed and buffer--and the 5D II blew away the 7D for low-light and overall IQ. Different tools for different shooting scenarios. 

All along, the stated target audience of the 7D II has been the 'action' shooter--the sports and nature photographer. The 7D was aimed heavily towards that market and the signs are that the 7D II will be aimed at that sort of shooter to an even greater degree. 

The concept of a "mini 1DX" seems to still be the primary guiding principle, so it makes sense to give it CF cards, fast 10-12 fps burst and a deep buffer, combined with a state of the art AF system. IQ and low-light will likely be better than the 70D, but probably only moderately so. The main goal will be blistering performance and amazing AF, with _*great IQ for a crop sensor*_. 

Those of us who want this camera, don't expect it to match or exceed the IQ of full-frame cameras like the 6D or the 5D III. If it can even come close to the IQ of the 5D II, that would be a win. But, what it will do, is handily outperform the 6D and 5D III as an action shooter's tool, where the subject is fast, at a distance and challenging to nail--just as the 7D outperformed the 5D II in those scenarios!

I'd say that's my two cents...but we got rid of the penny here in Canada.


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## jrista (Mar 12, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I have been thinking about this lately and am going to make a controversial prediction:
> ...



Agreed!


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## wickidwombat (Mar 12, 2014)

It would be nice if they use the exact same body and controls as the 5Dmk3 this would make it a viable 2nd body
I also hope it gets full 5Dmk3 AF

I think they would be better off keeping the MP modest and helping high iso improve as that is where crop sensors really fall down. really the difference in image between 22MP and 25 MP is next to nothing

dual card slots would be great I hope its CF and SD like the 5Dmk3 well not exactly like that, maybe they could make the SD slot perform better than the 5Dmk3 :

of course I still think they should resurrect the APS-H sensor for the 7D which will give it a significant ISO boost while retaining a good crop bonus 22MP APS-H would be really nice. (OK Let the APS-C Zealots loose on me i'm a self confessed heretic!  )


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## Don Haines (Mar 12, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> I also hope it gets full 5Dmk3 AF


I'd be disappointed if it did.... I'm hoping to see the emergence of a new AF system that will set the standard for years to come...

If the improvements were incremental changes, it would have been out by now. The delays could mean something completely different.


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## robdubbleu (Mar 12, 2014)

Hmmm.... very interesting thing I came across. I was comparing specs of cameras and look what I found....

http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-7D-MII-vs-Canon_EOS_Digital_Rebel_XSi


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## Don Haines (Mar 12, 2014)

robdubbleu said:


> Hmmm.... very interesting thing I came across. I was comparing specs of cameras and look what I found....
> 
> http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-7D-MII-vs-Canon_EOS_Digital_Rebel_XSi



Not bad.... even DXO scores for an imaginary body that has not been released.....


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## jrista (Mar 12, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I also hope it gets full 5Dmk3 AF
> ...



You mean set a standard higher than the 61pt AF system? I think that one will be hard to beat. I've never seen an AF system lock on so fast, consistently, and easily as Canon'a 61pt AF system. What exactly would you improve in it? It certainly isn't broken, and certainly isn't something to be disappointed about if it found it's way into the 7D II. 

When it comes to DPAF, that is an entirely different kind of AF for an entirely different purpose. As someone who uses PDAF for the very vast majority of his photography, I don't see DPAF taking over any time soon. While it is certainly cool technology, it's really just the beginning of the leg up that mirrorless needs to BEGIN to compete with what PDAF units currently offer. I think its going to be a few iterations, especially the one where it becomes QPAF, before we see sensor-based AF reaching the level of consistency, speed, and performance of PDAF. 

And even then...it would require an EVF to function entirely properly...and EVFs have just as long a way to come before they can really be viable replacements for OVFs...

If the 7D II gets the 61pt AF system, I'd personally be ecstatic!


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## wickidwombat (Mar 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> If the 7D II gets the 61pt AF system, I'd personally be ecstatic!



I think it will be the single most determining feature that could convince me to get this camera or not bother
I believe it is likely as the system is well tested now with most bugs ironed out other than AF point illumination still being an issue, I wonder if they will fix that? it would be nice if they did


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## Tugela (Mar 12, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> robdubbleu said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm.... very interesting thing I came across. I was comparing specs of cameras and look what I found....
> ...



Not to mention that it was announced a year ago, and apparently no one heard about it.


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## Tugela (Mar 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > wickidwombat said:
> ...



A 62pt AF system would be vastly superior.


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## Don Haines (Mar 12, 2014)

Tugela said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


To my mind, the biggest advantage Canon has is the AF system in it's higher end models.... the 5D3 system is certainly nothing to be sneezed at... but think about how it could be improved... Think about recognizing a bird and tracking it through trees! I have a p/s that can recognize and differentiate between a cat and a dog.... surely a DSLR with two higher end processors can do better? The 7D2 might be the camera that takes AF to the next level... and what about linking exposure to focus points? What about using the split pixels to vastly improve DR?

There are a lot of things that could happen and I eagerly await to see which ones they give us.... It should be an interesting release... certainly more than a mode dial that goes all the way around.


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## Aglet (Mar 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> And even then...it would require an EVF to function entirely properly...and EVFs have just as long a way to come before they can really be viable replacements for OVFs...



I'd say today's better EVF's are already more than adequate.
My pretty new Fuji XT1's EVF is a pleasure to use, more than adequate resolution and the high frame rate greatly reduces the lag compared to the older Xe bodies.
Combine that with the great low-light gain-up ability Canon's have and these things already see better in the dark than we do.
One more development iteration and OVF has serious competition.

the only thing I don't like about it...
I keep bringing the camera up to my eye to frame a possible shot and have to remember to turn it ON first... (I'm always in battery conservation mode)
And that's still the 2nd shortcoming... using an EVF still eats a lot of power. I see this being a major consideration when I'm in the wilds for a few days.


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## jrista (Mar 12, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



When it comes to locking onto and tracking subjects through trees, I do that now with my old 7D and its 19pt AF system. Achieving that is largely a matter of tuning the AF system...getting the right tracking jump rate and using the right point size. The 61pt AF system is far more capable than the 7Ds, and tracking through trees has not generally been a problem for me. Locking on can be tricky, however the 1D X with it's subject identification capabilities using the new metering sensor handles it pretty well. The 1D X also locks onto animal faces...it seems to recognize the general shape of a face, even if it isn't human, and is even capable of doing it in profile. 

These kinds of things aren't new, and aren't limited you your P&S. Now, there has always been the metering/AF split between the 1D line and everything else. The advanced integrated meter has always been a "premium" feature. That's a canon thing...they may or may not ever change that, but that is certainly not a limitation of the hardware. 

Regarding linking "exposure" to focus points...do you mean link metering to AF points? Again, that's been done, it isn't new technology, it's just one of those things Canon relegates to the 1D line. Otherwise, I don't know what you mean by linking exposure to focus points. 

As for split pixels improving DR...I don't believe that is possible. Those pixels receive the same amount of light. Split or a single pixel, the amount of light is the same. Now, assuming you are thinking "read one at ISO 100, the other at ISO 800". That isn't really going to help. It's HALF a pixel. For both ISOs, if you only read half of each pixel at a given ISO, then your halving the signal strength. Noise is the SQRT of the signal, so noise will jump considerably. 

For example, at FWC ISO 100 on the 70D you get 26726e-, but at half the pixel, you would only get 13363e-. Your noise at 26726 is 163.5e-, and at 13363 it's 115.6e-. Your signal was halved, but your noise as a ratio of the signal only dropped by 30%. Your ISO 100 "half" image is 41% noisier than if you had used the full pixels. Similarly, at ISO 800 your saturation point is 4055e-. Half that you get 2027.5e-. Noise wise, you have 63.7e- at max saturation, and 45e- with a half pixel. Noise as a ratio of the signal dropped by 30%, but your half-pixel ISO 800 image is once again 41% noisier than if you had used full pixels. It would basically be like using ISO 200 instead of ISO 100, or ISO 1600 instead of ISO 800.

This is just referring to the noise intrinsic to the signal...it has nothing to do with read noise. So, assuming you can use this to reduce the impact of read noise on dynamic range...well, you've considerably increased noise levels by only reading half a pixel...so your probably going to end up with a net...nothing. No gain, no real loss. Maybe you get "cleaner" noise, but dual pixel designs aren't going to be the magic bullet for increasing Canon sensor DR.


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## jrista (Mar 12, 2014)

Aglet said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > And even then...it would require an EVF to function entirely properly...and EVFs have just as long a way to come before they can really be viable replacements for OVFs...
> ...



For me, it's all about pixel density. I have 20/10 vision with my contacts in. For all the EVF's I've tried, I can CLEARLY see the pixels. It's utterly horrid, IMO, and not a single EVF, even sony's best, has ever even remotely compared to an OVF for me. And that's just one of the problems. They all seem to have relatively low color fidelity...they can't finely differentiate colors, as if they are low bit depth (probably are, in order to handle the refresh rates). They always seem to have a bit of posterization as you transition from highlights to shadows, especially when the transition is more abrupt than gradual. 

IMO, these things are 100% entirely unacceptable. I guess most people don't see them, like most people don't see the pixels in an Apple Retina screen (Apple's Retina is NOT high enough resolution for someone with 20/18 vision, let alone 20/10...although some of Samsung's latest screens are finally getting there.)

EVFs have a long way to go before they can be acceptable to the broadest market. People with normal or less than normal vision are probably fine, as they apparently cannot see pixels all that much. But the number of people with better than normal vision combined with the number of people who have corrective lenses (like myself) that give them better than normal vision are currently getting shafted by the underlying poorer quality of EVFs.


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## Larry (Mar 12, 2014)

SevenDUser said:


> Anyone else sick and tired of seeing threads about 7D MK II ???



Up to 3 pages as I type this.
Some interesting thoughts have been provoked and posted.
Its a "Canon rumor" on a Canon Rumors forum.
Nothing sickening or tiring to this viewer.
Exactly what the forum claims to be about, what I therefore expect, and what I come here for.

For a contrast, see the "bird" posts, which seldom address anything rumor-ish. (As it happens, I enjoy them also, …but they are definitely not what brings me to CR.)


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## Tugela (Mar 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



If you have enough light, noise is not a problem. After all, is that not the principle behind HDR photography?


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 12, 2014)

candyman said:


> SevenDUser said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone else sick and tired of seeing threads about 7D MK II ???
> ...


Actually, it isn't only the 7D MK II, even its competitors Nikon D400 & Sony a77 II are also getting similar kind of "not so strong" rumors, and people are kind of getting tired of reading rumors like these ... maybe, Canon, Nikon & Sony are waiting on each other to outdo the spec list? :-\ I don't know ... so far, the rumor that might be closest to being a fact is the Sony a77 II (which according to Sonyalpharumors the "Announcement will be made the first week of May and availability in June!"). To me 7D II seems very complex in terms of pricing strategy ... Canon already has a great camera in 70D and an affordable full frame camera in 6D, so will they price it in between or will they charge more than the 6D ... I am sure there will be people who will buy the 7D II for just shy of $2000, but what about the majority ... a difficult guess.


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## Tugela (Mar 12, 2014)

But, Canon are almost certainly aware that video capability is regarded as important by the average buyer, who would probably prefer to buy a single camera that does both stills and video, rather than two separate cameras. It is also the area where they can add the most bang for the buck in terms of upgraded features in the system. The still aspect of the camera is largely mature technology. If they want to convince the average buyer to replace their old Canon body, this is an excellent opportunity to do it, particularly with the current interest in 4k.

If they do not produce a body with those sorts of capabilities for the average consumer in the market targeted by these cameras, those consumers will move over to other brands that get the combination right, such as Panasonic and Sony. 

Canon has no choice but to make a camera similar to the GH4, and do it soon. They have to compete in that market segment now, if they wait a year or two it will be Panasonic's market, not theirs.

With cameras such as the GH3 they could sort of compete using existing cameras and letting Magic Lantern hacks bring the cameras up to speed. That way they could get the capability without the liability. All of that is about to change when the GH4 rolls out of store doors. When that happens all of the existing consumer Canon cameras are going to be obsolete as far as most of the market is concerned. Yes, I know there are those who don't care about video, but they are not the average Joe, who spends a lot for an expensive toy and wants it to do everything well. For them, an expensive camera that can't shoot excellent video is not going to fly when there are others that can.

Remember, the high end cameras have a product life cycle of 2.5-3.5 years, so whatever they release now has to have capabilities that will result in them still being competitive at the end of that time frame.


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## mkabi (Mar 12, 2014)

Always a CR1, never a CR3 or even CR2.

Quite surprised actually, given that NAB is about a month away. It would be quite a shame if they had nothing to show for NAB.

Also surprised, because there is a sale for the 70D going on, I would think that they are selling the 70Ds so that some profit can be made from them prior to a 7D replacement announcement.


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## Tugela (Mar 12, 2014)

Yup, I noticed that. Dumping inventory in preparation for a new more attractive product release (along with a permanent price reduction for the 70D).


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## greyowlpictures (Mar 12, 2014)

I have been waiting rather impatiently for Canon to release the 7D MkII since I heard from a Canon rep that it was expected to hit the market exactly two years ago. At that time, it was rumored to be an "APS-C sensor camera with a resolution of around 23 or 25 megapixels". After a year of waiting, I bought the 7D as a interim camera body, and have won several underwater photo competitions with it. In the two years that I have been waiting for the 7D Mk II, and watching the rumor mill, I hope that Canon still intends to produce the body with an APS-C sized sensor, and will not switch to a full-sized sensor. Small sensors produce a much wider wider depth of field than full frame sensors. If the 7D Mk II arrives with an APS-C sensor, I expect to immediately sell my 7D and camera housing and buy a new system. If the camera ships with a full-sized sensor, I will be VERY disappointed.


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## jeffa4444 (Mar 12, 2014)

If we see a Canon 7dMKII then given the 7d build quality as compared to the 6d (which is still very high) its almost a given it will be priced between the 6d and 5dMKIII the gap between these two cameras in pricing is large. 
The 7d was definately built with Pros in mind sports photographers, wildlife photograhers and videographers gravitated to it so the new apple will not fall far from the tree and as said by others would compliment the full frame pro cameras.


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## tron (Mar 12, 2014)

J.R. said:


> Oooh ... Nessie's been sighted again? Great!


... and ... it will be photographed with a 7D2 ;D


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## Aglet (Mar 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> For me, it's all about pixel density. I have 20/10 vision..I can CLEARLY see the pixels. It's utterly horrid..



I'm at 20/15 w-o correction, and I can see the pixels in my EVF too if I want to concentrate on that. But it doesn't bother me since I don't expect it to look exactly like an OVF. There's enough information density to be useful for what it is, a composition tool with a rich amount of camera data added. I don't need to color-proof with it, don't care if it has other limitations you've described, as long as it's fast, responsive, works well in low light and provides the information I need to perform the function it's supposed to.
It does that just fine, and it's even better than an OVF when it comes to low light. I don't mind a little noise in my low light EVF image when it allows me to see more detail than I could looking thru an OVF.
So, if today's EVFs don't appeal to you, tomorrow's might.
One of the other benefits is I get from an EVF is a much better idea of how a stopped down image will look because I'm seeing it without the effect of a focus screen in an OVF that interferes with how the image actually looks for in-focus to OOF transition areas.

Either way, good EVFs won't prevent you from using them for what they are there for, to compose the shot. Even the very low rez EVF in my old Panasonic FZ-20 was useful and still truckloads better than trying to compose using the rear display in sunlight.


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## Don Haines (Mar 12, 2014)

Aglet said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > For me, it's all about pixel density. I have 20/10 vision..I can CLEARLY see the pixels. It's utterly horrid..
> ...


I have an EVF on my SX-50. It is low res and you can see the pixels.... there is considerable lag. Then look at the EVF on the Olympus u4/3 cameras... It is a world better! /not as good as optical, but getting close. We are very close to hitting the resolution where it is beyond what the eye can see... anyone want to bet that the prototypes in the labs are past that level yet?

This is like the film/digital debate. When digital first came out, the quality was garbage. Over time, the positions reversed themselves. Digital now is far superior to film of the 1990's, but that comparison is meaningless because in that period the quality of lenses has taken a huge jump forward and so have AF systems... in other words, film images shot today WITH THE EXACT SAME FILM are better than film images shot in the 1990's.

The point being, componentry does not exist in a vaccumn... it is affected by all the other facets of the camera.
EVF's are getting better, but many of the improvements are the result of system changes. For example, what kind of dynamic range can you show on an EVF? Improvements in sensor dynamic range have a big impact here...If you have an EVF that can show 10 stops of dynamic range, it will look a lot better maping a 14 stop sensor onto it than it would maping a 6 stop sensor...

Lag time has gone from annoying to you have to look hard to notice it.... how far away is unnoticeable?

EVF's are coming. Is the time now? None of us know. We will not know until it gets released. In the meantime we speculate and discuss.


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 12, 2014)

So whats been talked about is a hybrid vf. Electronic vf used during video and live view shooting and optical vf used during stills.

Seeing pixels when shooting video is not a big deal for me...especially when considering the alternative of using the display on the rear of the camera.


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## greger (Mar 12, 2014)

here we go again. I hope the 7 D ll comes out soon! I don't plan on buying it. I look forward to reading the reviews.
I hope it lives up to our expectations.


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## luckydude (Mar 12, 2014)

I own (currently) the 7D & 5DIII (and have sitting unused a 40D and a T4i). I loved the 7D when I got it, then a few years later got the 5DIII and now the 7D sits unused (sort of. out on loan to a friend of mine).

I *love* the IQ that 5DIII gives me, it's way better than the 7D. I shoot jpeg and don't post process, fixed things a little by cranking up the in camera sharpening a bit. But still the 5D beats it nicely.

I shoot birds and surfers sometimes and I would pay pretty much anything within reason (certainly as much or more than the 5DIII) for a 7DII that was every bit as good as the 5DIII but with the extra 1.6x reach. That would be an awesome tool for wildlife and sports photography. To be clear I don't want a 1.6x crop of the 5DIII sensor, I can do that myself (though wouldn't it be cool if the 5D had a crop mode where it did it for you?). I want the 5DIII IQ with the 1.6x crop bonus. A 25 MP crop sensor _seems_ like it would be close but we'll see.


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## axtstern (Mar 12, 2014)

The 7DII will have a bunch of competitors when it arrives, some of the most fearsome ones coming from Canon itself and most likely the 7D itself being the toughest one. The current 7D has been selling strong and I expect quiet some trade in starting on e-bay once the replacement is out.

The People who bought a 5D3 that I know bought their camera either after intensive research or after no research at all. That might sound strange but I know a lot of Chinese and they buy their DSLR before going on a big trip and the choice of model happens by asking the sales guy in the shop for the best model of the leading brand. The time you and I use for debating the technical details is in such a case used to haggle the price down. The result in case of my Chinese friends was in the past the 5d2 and now the 5d3 hanged around the neck with the Canon strap and the 24-105L. Only other equipment they will ever buy is the lcd protector foil, and 2 fake batteries. 

The 7D2 will fall into a different category. We talk here probably of internet savvy consumers but not automatically people who have studied CR for 3 years in hope of this camera arriving. 

If I want to sell to semi pros I need a victory by numbers not a victory through a hard to explain concept.
Victory by numbers means up with resolution, up with ISO (I especially do not write usefull ISO) up with FPS.
So anything that is compatible to a Dpreview comparrison table style way of making a choice.

Has popup flash, has green button, has face detection, has live view, has touch screen... those are Amazon shopper review friendly criteria and they are much easier to explain as highlights than the feature of shifting between AI servo and one shot by pressing the little button for depth control next to the bayonet. 

I also desire a 1dx style AF System, a microphone monitor feature etc... but the 1dx AF System is beyond the spiritual capacity of the hordes that make Canon the NO1 DSLR seller in the world.

Cudos from my side to the idea with the buit in RT. That is exactly what I would do with my APSC top toy for those with deep pockets . Give them a reason not to buy the 430EX but the more expensive 600. Let them overheat the Little Pop up Flash and afterwards sell them another 600 to master the one they already have.

Please forgive the thousands of spelling mistakes, my spell checker does not want to allow me using English


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## jrista (Mar 13, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



I've said this before, but, to be smaller than the eye can see at 20/10 vision, you would need 12,000ppi. Yes, twelve THOUSAND pixel per inch. The best these days are around 2800ppi? Shy of three thousand per inch. The problem with 12000ppi is that the pixels are so small that they filter out red light. 

So, they may be working on the next generation, but there is absolutely no way they are ever even going to be CAPABLE of creating pixels in an EVF that sits at less than 1" eye relief small enough to never be seen by people with good vision. Hence my argument that with EVFs, people with good vision get shafted. 

At some point, maybe around 8000ppi, it will be good enough that I can handle it. But at 2800ppi, it isn't even remotely close (and 2800ppi is for the GOOD EVFs of today.) 

If the 7D II gets a hybrid, where I have total control over when the OVF is used, then I'd be happy. If it end up getting some kind of hybrid where you do not have control over when your in OVF mode and when your in EVF mode, I'd be pretty ticked (and I'd just stick with getting a 5D III, and skip the 7D II altogether.)


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 13, 2014)

tron said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Oooh ... Nessie's been sighted again? Great!
> ...


I tried photographing Nessie in 2010 with my 7D but due to low light conditions & limited ISO capability I couldn't capture it ... but the better specd 7D MK II should be able to capture it ;D


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## jrista (Mar 13, 2014)

Rienzphotoz said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > J.R. said:
> ...



That'll be one for Guinness! To photograph Nessie *with* Nessie! You'll have finally solved the chicken and the egg problem. ;-P


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2014)

jrista said:


> I've said this before, but, to be smaller than the eye can see at 20/10 vision, you would need 12,000ppi. Yes, twelve THOUSAND pixel per inch. The best these days are around 2800ppi? Shy of three thousand per inch. The problem with 12000ppi is that the pixels are so small that they filter out red light.
> 
> So, they may be working on the next generation, but there is absolutely no way they are ever even going to be CAPABLE of creating pixels in an EVF that sits at less than 1" eye relief small enough to never be seen by people with good vision. Hence my argument that with EVFs, people with good vision get shafted.
> 
> At some point, maybe around 8000ppi, it will be good enough that I can handle it. But at 2800ppi, it isn't even remotely close (and 2800ppi is for the GOOD EVFs of today.)



No offense but this seems like a really weird complaint. I mean, if it bothers you it bothers you I guess but even with amazing super vision you'd still have to concentrate pretty hard to see individual pixels at ~3000ppi. And as the other person said, you aren't using the EVF for a display, its a framing tool. It could be monochrome and still work well if the refresh rate was fast enough.


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## jrista (Mar 13, 2014)

Steve said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I've said this before, but, to be smaller than the eye can see at 20/10 vision, you would need 12,000ppi. Yes, twelve THOUSAND pixel per inch. The best these days are around 2800ppi? Shy of three thousand per inch. The problem with 12000ppi is that the pixels are so small that they filter out red light.
> ...



We aren't talking cell phone distances here. Most EVFs are recessed at around a quarter of an inch or so, pretty much always less than an inch. At around an inch, 3000-5000ppi would do it, but at a quarter of an inch, people with better than 20/20 vision are going to see pixels.

Additionally, you must not shoot action. When your an action shooter, your eye LIVES in the viewfinder. It's never away from the viewfinder. I have spent so much time with my eye pressed up against my VF while photographing shorebirds that when I take my eye away and look around, I have to close my eyes and wait for them to adjust to the brighter light. 

Not everyone is a landscape photographer or other kind of photographer where you spend a small amount of time looking through a viewfinder. Some of us live and die by the viewfinder...it is one of the single most important factors for choosing a camera body, alongside AF and frame rate (again, not everyone needs 25 stops of DR at ISO 100.) 

So it isn't a weird complaint. It's a complaint based on the way I use my camera pretty much every single time I take it out and shoot something. If I have a camera in my hands, chances are, I'm looking through the viewfinder. The quality of the VF is of the utmost critical importance to me, so I think the complaint is entirely warranted and legit.


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 13, 2014)

jrista said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > tron said:
> ...


 ;D ;D ;D ... so are you saying the 7D MK II ain't gonna happen?


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## jrista (Mar 13, 2014)

Rienzphotoz said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Rienzphotoz said:
> ...



LOL...no, not quite. It was a play on words and context, but I'm guessing not many people would actually get it.


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## Don Haines (Mar 13, 2014)

jrista said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


The 7D2 and Nessie are nothing alike..... there are millions of people that believe Nessie is real


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## wsmith96 (Mar 13, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Is AFMA toast?
> 
> The 70D is the tip of the iceberg..... it barely scratches the capabilities of Dual Pixel... there are interesting times ahead!



I think this is a correct assessment. With dual pixel technology, you really don't need AFMA any more. There is a great article about this in the April edition of "Digital Photo Pro" magazine. 

http://www.digitalphotopro.com/technique/camera-technique/autofocus-evolution.html


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## weixing (Mar 13, 2014)

Hi,


Don Haines said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


 The main issue with EVF is that it require battery power to operate which is a big disadvantage especially for wildlife and nature photographer... they usually spend very long time looking through the viewfinder and wait for the moment to get the shot they want. With OVF, the camera can be in standby mode while waiting for the moment, but you can't do that with EVF... just imagine how many battery they need to bring and change during the wait.

Have a nice day.


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 13, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Rienzphotoz said:
> ...


Wait, isn't that what we think about the 7D MK II?  ;D


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## weixing (Mar 13, 2014)

Hi,


wsmith96 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Is AFMA toast?
> ...


 Or may be an Auto AFMA which you can perform easily in the field... something:
1) You put an AF target at a certain distance and turn on Auto AFMA. 
2) AF lock using the traditional PDAF and press the shutter. 
3) When the shutter is pressed, the dual-pixel AF kick in to check the AF. 
4) The difference will be updated in the camera (or lens) for that lens.

Have a nice day.


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## Don Haines (Mar 13, 2014)

Aglet said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > For me, it's all about pixel density. I have 20/10 vision..I can CLEARLY see the pixels. It's utterly horrid..
> ...



I have 20/2000 vision.... I can't find my camera without my glasses.....


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## tron (Mar 13, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


 ;D ;D ;D


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## Richard8971 (Mar 13, 2014)

I was excited about 2 years ago about a 7D replacement but now I don't care much anymore. I suspect that Canon is waiting to see how sales of the 70D go. If it sells well enough they may forget about any kind of 7D replacement. The firmware 2.0 update lends itself to the fact that Canon may not release a replacement. If they were then why "unlock" a bunch of cool, useful features on a camera you were going to replace soon? Seems to me it would (even a little) cut into sales of the new model. 

D


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## unfocused (Mar 13, 2014)

Richard8971 said:


> The firmware 2.0 update lends itself to the fact that Canon may not release a replacement. If they were then why "unlock" a bunch of cool, useful features on a camera you were going to replace soon? Seems to me it would (even a little) cut into sales of the new model.
> 
> D



The 2.0 major firmware update occurred in August, 2012. Back in 2012, the update was clearly intended to extend the life of the 7D and buy Canon some time. Perhaps they knew at the time that it would be nearly two years before they had a replacement ready. 

At this point, the existence of the firmware upgrade would have little to no impact on a 7DII.


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 13, 2014)

unfocused said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > The firmware 2.0 update lends itself to the fact that Canon may not release a replacement. If they were then why "unlock" a bunch of cool, useful features on a camera you were going to replace soon? Seems to me it would (even a little) cut into sales of the new model.
> ...


+1


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 13, 2014)

Richard8971 said:


> I was excited about 2 years ago about a 7D replacement but now I don't care much anymore. I suspect that Canon is waiting to see how sales of the 70D go.
> D


True, 2 years ago I had my focus set on a 7D MK II (I knew it wasn't gonna release so soon) but as when it was released, I was prepared to get it ... but after getting the 5D MK III, I lost interest in 7D MK II and with the purchase of my 7D last week, I am even less likely to get the 7D MK II even if it does show up in 2014 ... but if it comes in 2015, maybe GAS will kick in enough to make the plunge.


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## Tugela (Mar 13, 2014)

unfocused said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > The firmware 2.0 update lends itself to the fact that Canon may not release a replacement. If they were then why "unlock" a bunch of cool, useful features on a camera you were going to replace soon? Seems to me it would (even a little) cut into sales of the new model.
> ...



I think that would have been around the time it became clear that the future in the form of 4K video would be arriving within a planable time frame, and the 7D2 project was refocused to catch that wave. The old 7D got the firmware upgrade and the original 7D2 tech features got repackaged into the 70D instead. IMO they originally anticipated 4K arriving in 2015, but in 2013 the projections were advanced to 2014 instead, and that has mixed up their development program and accelerated things.


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2014)

jrista said:


> We aren't talking cell phone distances here. Most EVFs are recessed at around a quarter of an inch or so, pretty much always less than an inch. At around an inch, 3000-5000ppi would do it, but at a quarter of an inch, people with better than 20/20 vision are going to see pixels.
> 
> Additionally, you must not shoot action. When your an action shooter, your eye LIVES in the viewfinder. It's never away from the viewfinder. I have spent so much time with my eye pressed up against my VF while photographing shorebirds that when I take my eye away and look around, I have to close my eyes and wait for them to adjust to the brighter light.
> 
> ...



Ok, like I said if it bothers you that's your thing but I still don't understand _why_ it bothers you. So what if you can see the pixels? It doesn't affect your ability to frame an image in any way. Refresh rate, battery life, those are complaints that I can understand because they have a real affect on the ability to make an image but being able to discern the individual pixels does not. To me, it seems like complaining that an OVF isn't contrasty enough or something.

I do shoot action almost exclusively and I appreciate the OVF in my 1DIV but thats because it is large and bright and has a refresh rate of _c_. If an EVF had a refresh rate that was indistinguishable from reflected light, I would certainly be interested because of all of the other advantages that could be conferred, such as brightening the scene, magnification or overlaid information like zebras/focus peaking. It may be that it won't ever work for what I do but there is certainly potential in the technology and it seems weird to me discount it out of hand because you can see the pixels if you concentrate on finding them.


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## thepancakeman (Mar 13, 2014)

Steve said:


> Ok, like I said if it bothers you that's your thing but I still don't understand _why_ it bothers you. So what if you can see the pixels? It doesn't affect your ability to frame an image in any way.



If you are spending hours looking through the viewfinder, it's not just "the ability to frame an image". I think you're asking for migraines and digital eyestrain and a whole bunch of other uncomfortableness looking at a pixelated image for that amount of time.


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## jrista (Mar 13, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Rienzphotoz said:
> ...



I was playing off the fact that JR called the 7D II "Nessie". When Reinz said he would photograph Nessie with his new 7D II, I then took the chance to play on the context...if Nessie (the ever-elusive, never seen mystical monster) IS the 7D II, then it would be quite a feat to photograph it with itself. 

I'm surprised no one got that...but whatever...


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2014)

thepancakeman said:


> If you are spending hours looking through the viewfinder, it's not just "the ability to frame an image". I think you're asking for migraines and digital eyestrain and a whole bunch of other uncomfortableness looking at a pixelated image for that amount of time.



I could see that as a possibility but I've also spent full days, dawn to dark, in hides photographing birds and my eye was to the viewfinder maybe 10% of that time. With wildlife and sports you spend the vast majority of your time waiting and only a little of it in the actual act of shooting. If you are literally spending hours with your face pressed against a camera body there is going to be a lot of general uncomfortableness at the end of the day no matter what.


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## jrista (Mar 13, 2014)

Steve said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > We aren't talking cell phone distances here. Most EVFs are recessed at around a quarter of an inch or so, pretty much always less than an inch. At around an inch, 3000-5000ppi would do it, but at a quarter of an inch, people with better than 20/20 vision are going to see pixels.
> ...



Seeing pixels causes eye strain. The pixels of current EVFs, for the given viewing distance (remember, visual acuity is relative to ANGULAR size, not absolute size!), are HUGE. I mean not just "kind of visible"...they are big and obvious. If I had to look at something like that for more than a few minutes, I'm guaranteed to get a terrible headach. When your focused that close, your eye has to fight between seeing pixels, and seeing image detail. 

The ever-constant march towards higher and higher pixel density smartphone screens was to eliminate visibility of pixels. They have achieved that for 8" viewing distances with 400-500ppi screens. Anything less than about 400ppi, and the pixels still aren't small enough, and you can still get eye strain from viewing your phone too much, especially if your one of those who view it 6" away. It's the same deal with EVFs...we need a lot more resolution to make pixels a non-factor for 1/4" eye relief...however for people with higher visual acuity, it is physically infeasible to create pixels small enough that your eye naturally blurs them out of existence, thus eliminating the possibility of eye strain.

For someone like me, who lives with his eye to the viewfinder whenever a camera is in hand, pixel size is utterly critical. That's why I always say that I'll cling to my OVF until someone prys it from my cold, dead hands. The nature of ground or laser etched glass is very different from pixels. It bends and warps the light a little bit, but you don't have that hard, jarring pixellation you get with an EVF. Therefor, no headache. 

You can belittle the needs of photographers like me all you want, but that just means your ignorant and cannot expand your mind even the minimal amount required to see the situation from a broader scope than your own. 




Steve said:


> I do shoot action almost exclusively and I appreciate the OVF in my 1DIV but thats because it is large and bright and has a refresh rate of _c_. If an EVF had a refresh rate that was indistinguishable from reflected light, I would certainly be interested because of all of the other advantages that could be conferred, such as brightening the scene, magnification or overlaid information like zebras/focus peaking. It may be that it won't ever work for what I do but there is certainly potential in the technology and it seems weird to me discount it out of hand because you can see the pixels if you concentrate on finding them.



Well first, I don't have to concentrate on finding them. Your making an assumption that is incorrect. The pixel sizes of EVFs today are MONSTROUS for the given eye relief of the EVF screen itself. It doesn't take any effort at all to see the pixels...they are sitting right there, gigantic and intrusive, and there is nothing I can do about it. Double the current pixel density, and it would certainly be harder to see them, but the strain on the eye from looking "through" a grid of pixels to see an image would still exist. Triple current pixel density, and that might do the trick...but as I said, by that point, your starting to filter out red light...so color fidelity is going to suffer. 

A lot of the EVF "features" that people think are exclusive to an EVF are not necessarily exclusive to an EVF. Canon has used transmissive LCD overlays in their OFVs for some time. There is no reason they couldn't upgrade the TLCD to be full color and higher resolution. Then, you could have most of the benefits of an EVF without the drawbacks associated with small pixels, low frame rates, limited dynamic range, low color fidelity, etc. You could do focus peaking, zebras, overlay a histogram, and who knows what else with a color Transmissive LCD overlaid on top of an OPTICAL preview of the image. About the only benefit you wouldn't have would be DOF preview, however at such a small scale, you aren't going to get an accurate representation of DOF regardless, so I consider that a relatively moot point.

There is a bigger world outside of the EVF box. There are a lot of possibilities that aren't necessarily tied to the limitations of _electronic_ VFs, and those possibilities could be realized to the benefit of those who truly, fundamentally rely on the benefits of an OVF without the consequences of things like eye strain and constant headaches. (And those consequences are very real...out of the seven plus billion people on earth, I highly doubt I am the sole individual who has good visual acuity and experiences eye strain from looking at large pixels.)


----------



## jrista (Mar 13, 2014)

Steve said:


> thepancakeman said:
> 
> 
> > If you are spending hours looking through the viewfinder, it's not just "the ability to frame an image". I think you're asking for migraines and digital eyestrain and a whole bunch of other uncomfortableness looking at a pixelated image for that amount of time.
> ...



This is a straw man argument, and not indicative of the average case for bird and wildlife photography. If you are photographing elusive birds, that's one thing. If your on a sandy beach packed full of shorebirds, waterfowl, etc. then your eye is going to be looking through the VF far more than 10% of the time.

I'm not going to say I spend 100% of my time looking through the VF, however if there are subjects in view, my eye is to the camera 80% of the time. There have been times here in Colorado, in the heart of the spring and fall bird migrations, where I've been able to set up, lay down on the ground near a popular shorebird spot, and spend the bulk of several hours with my eye through the lens...often to take pictures, sometimes just to observe their behavior.


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## Tugela (Mar 13, 2014)

jrista said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Wow...you must hate looking at TV screens and computer monitors, all those headaches and eye strain!!! 

Seriously though, if you have some sort of freakish abnormal eyesight, you can't expect the world to be designed around your minority needs. I doubt that 99.9% of the market population has a problem with EFVs.


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## jrista (Mar 14, 2014)

I never said 99.9% had a problem with them. However, I'd be willing to bet it's well more than 10%, probably a good third or more of people definitely have problems with EVFs, for a variety of reasons.

Also, I don't have _freakishly _good eyesight. I have 20/10 vision, which is very common among people who use corrective lenses. It's just "good" eyesight. I've read enough about people complaining about posterization and pixellation in some of the best EVFs to know I'm definitely not alone on this subject.

Oh, and BTW, yes, pixels in TVs and computer screens DO bug me. I have to take a break every couple of hours when I'm looking at a screen, because I DO get headaches. I've had things called ocular migraines, which, when they occur, can last for days...and they are excruciatingly painful, and drain you of every last ounce of energy you have (as they very often become full blown migraines). I truly cannot wait for UHD TVs to become affordable...the pixels are BEAUTIFULLY small, and in the average 55-65" TV are invisible in less than my current viewing distance. Same goes for 4k computer screens...at roughly the same dimensions as my current 30" screen (31.4" seems to be the key size for higher end 4k computer screens) the pixels are small enough that they would finally be invisible to me at my current viewing distances. 

You belittle the situation...but it's only because you haven't experienced it. I'm not just making sh*t up here...I have a legitimate reason for my complaints about current and forthcoming EVFs, and a specific reason why I demand better. I've been a software developer for nearly two decades, and I've been programming since the age of eight. Over the last six months, I've been desperately trying to find an alternative means of making money, because I've had too many migraines over the last couple of years, along with other issues, that working in front of a computer screen eight to nine hours a day, then going home only to need to work in front of another computer screen for several more hours to process my photography, is just too much. I don't want to have to deal with ANOTHER pixelated screen in my next camera as well...just too many freaking pixels! 

It's also the reason I truly hope that Canon will advance their Transmissive LCD technology. The etched glass focusing screen in an OVF has never caused me any problems, and a TLCD could be programmed to be just as capable as a full EVF, especially with a higher resolution RGB metering sensor.


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## Don Haines (Mar 14, 2014)

jrista said:


> I never said 99.9% had a problem with them. However, I'd be willing to bet it's well more than 10%, probably a good third or more of people definitely have problems with EVFs, for a variety of reasons.
> 
> Also, I don't have _freakishly _good eyesight. I have 20/10 vision, which is very common among people who use corrective lenses. It's just "good" eyesight. I've read enough about people complaining about posterization and pixellation in some of the best EVFs to know I'm definitely not alone on this subject.
> 
> ...



I see both ends of the spectrum ( pun intended). I have 20/2000 vision, corrected with glasses to 20/10. I am also bothered by the pixels on normal displays and can only look at them so long.... I have to take a break. I find the apple retina displays far easier on the eyes and can't wait until 4K displays get to a reasonable price.

I also get migraines if I stare at a screen too long programming.. I take a break every hour. I get up, walk around the office, do some stretches, and then back to work.

At least for me, I tend to not spend long periods looking through a viewfinder without breaks, so I am sure that an EVF will not bother me as much as a monitor... Call it personal preference, but at least for me, a high quality EVF, if coupled with decent features, may be preferable to an optical viewfinder.

As to your comment about how many people have problems with EVFs, my feeling is that it is at least three quarters of people who have problems with the current crop of EVFs. As they get better, the percentage will drop, but as things now stand, optical is better.


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## jrista (Mar 14, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I never said 99.9% had a problem with them. However, I'd be willing to bet it's well more than 10%, probably a good third or more of people definitely have problems with EVFs, for a variety of reasons.
> ...



Yikes, 20/2000 is pretty bad. You must LOOOVE your glasses.  Years and years ago, it seemed the best I could get was about 20/18 with corrective lenses. Nowadays, with both my glasses and my contacts, I get 20/10. I can pick out a good half or so the characters in the 20/8 line, but 20/10 is my sweet spot. 

BTW, I think you used the term "OVF" in a few places where "EVF" was intended (at least, given the context, that's what it seems.) Might want to do a quick edit and replace OVF with EVF where you intended EVF...just so other readers aren't confused. 

I agree, EVFs bring certain features to the table. Again, I think that could be done with a higher quality, more capable TLCD layer in an OVF, coupled with a better metering sensor and maybe a dedicated processor (as in the 1D X). I think OVFs could be turned into powerhouse HUDs for us viewfinder junkies, without having to limit the underlying "screen" to something electronic (for us mirror slapper junkies. )

I'm also sure that some day, EVF pixel densities will reach a point where the pixels become more "background" than "foreground". I don't ever expect them to become entirely invisible, because I think there is a physical limit that will prevent that occurrence in the first place. Maybe a 5000ppi FF sized EVF set in at about a 1" eye relief would do it for me. If I could get that, in a DSLR sized and shaped body, then I'd be all in. (I don't suspect a wonder would be cheap, though...that's would probably 1D X price range territory for a good while before it reached a level of cost that's more within reach.)


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## JimKarczewski (Mar 14, 2014)

"new" software features I'd love to see:

Built in Intervalometer

Ability to do more than 7 shots bracketed at a time, "pick your own" kind of thing. I do large HDR exposures in 1/3 stops, typically 20+ frames. It's a pain to do it quickly.. Would be nice if there was no set limit on the number of bracketed shots.


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## jrista (Mar 14, 2014)

JimKarczewski said:


> "new" software features I'd love to see:
> 
> Built in Intervalometer
> 
> Ability to do more than 7 shots bracketed at a time, "pick your own" kind of thing. I do large HDR exposures in 1/3 stops, typically 20+ frames. It's a pain to do it quickly.. Would be nice if there was no set limit on the number of bracketed shots.



Technically speaking, given how the math works when blending HDR, you shouldn't need 20+ frames. Not unless your trying to photograph the sun at the same time your imaging that star that's about to be occluded by it.  With more than 20 frames, spaced a couple stops apart, you could get like 30+ stops of dynamic range. I don't know what your photographing, but I think you've gone a little overkill.


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 14, 2014)

JimKarczewski said:


> "new" software features I'd love to see:
> 
> Built in Intervalometer
> 
> Ability to do more than 7 shots bracketed at a time, "pick your own" kind of thing. I do large HDR exposures in 1/3 stops, typically 20+ frames. It's a pain to do it quickly.. Would be nice if there was no set limit on the number of bracketed shots.


WOW! "20+ frames" ... could you please post some images and how you put it together? 
Cheers


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## Don Haines (Mar 14, 2014)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


You are right, I did goof up while typing.... I went back and corrected the post...


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## Marsu42 (Mar 14, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> I do agree this camera will have to be extremely feature rich to be successful.



This is most likely the reason the 7d2 isn't here yet and neither "around the corner" ...

... but the competition is a moving target, the new Nikon 1 v3 has 20fps with servo af, full res 18mp and 40 shows raw buffer (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=20018.0) so Canon should better come up with something really interesting or amateur wildlife photogs will switch to mirrorless.

The hybrid (evf/ovf?) viewfinder is the indication Canon is following suite - with a high-fps "mirror flipped up" mode, the days of the mirror-flipping high fps beast seem to be almost over.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2014)

jrista said:


> This is a straw man argument, and not indicative of the average case for bird and wildlife photography. If you are photographing elusive birds, that's one thing. If your on a sandy beach packed full of shorebirds, waterfowl, etc. then your eye is going to be looking through the VF far more than 10% of the time.
> 
> I'm not going to say I spend 100% of my time looking through the VF, however if there are subjects in view, my eye is to the camera 80% of the time. There have been times here in Colorado, in the heart of the spring and fall bird migrations, where I've been able to set up, lay down on the ground near a popular shorebird spot, and spend the bulk of several hours with my eye through the lens...often to take pictures, sometimes just to observe their behavior.



That's not what a strawman argument is. I was responding to someone who said they were looking through a viewfinder for hours at a time. I find, in my personal experience and that of the other photographers I've observed, that statement to be a bit of an exaggeration. I've shot shorebirds during migration, snowy owl irruptions, and from hides with extremely active water features. Most recently, I was shooting a college basketball tournament with back to back games from 8am to 10pm for four days. I'd say 10% viewfinder time, maybe 20% on the high end, is about right, even in target rich environments. From my experience, most photographers spend more time talking to each other than actually taking pictures.

As I said in my other two posts and I'll repeat it again, if an EVF bothers you it bothers you and nothing I say is going to change that. It sounds to me though, that your problem is well within the scope of 'atypical'. I've never heard that complaint from anyone else and the reason I asked you about it was because from all the reading and talking about the problems with EVF's I've done, that's the first time I've ever seen anyone give "pixels" as the reason they will have to pry their mirrors from their cold dead hands. I don't think you have anything to worry about, though, since EVF's are still pretty niche and OVF's don't look like they are going away anytime soon. Also, do you have any info on that TLCD overlay stuff you were talking about? Google wasn't really coming up with anything and it sounds interesting.


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## unfocused (Mar 14, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> ... the days of the mirror-flipping high fps beast seem to be almost over.



Marsu, don't tell me you're buying into the mirrorless hype. 

Canon's delaying strategy worked on me and I bit the bullet last fall with a 5DIII. But, I'm still interested in a 7D II.

I think my list is pretty modest.

5DIII style autofocus
Dual card slots (one each)
600 RT settings through the menu (that's a certainty)
Modest improvement in sensor, particularly in reduced noise
If higher megapixels, no loss in image quality
Weather sealing at least to 5DIII standards
Same basic controls as 5DIII 
Frame Rate equal to or better than current 7D

Basically, I want a second body that I can shoot birds and wildlife with when I'm distance limited and know I'll need to crop a significant portion of the frame away.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 14, 2014)

unfocused said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > ... the days of the mirror-flipping high fps beast seem to be almost over.
> ...



Well, this forum is the stronghold of the old school "80s" dslr community, but alas, _tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis_.

I'm buying the fact that in the near future, you can do 100fps full res with mirrorless - at amateur price w/o 1d-type construction and for shootings styles that need "take your pick". Me, I'm always using flash so 1fps is enough 

But really, the whole mirror idea is based on the fact that the analog film needs to be hidden, with a digital sensor it's on its way out except for people who also use digital watches that were once cool. Your camera is a high-performance computer, but this fact is only used up to a tiny fraction by existing designs and software.

Canon is working on this with the whole dual pixel af gadgetry, and the 7d2 delay indicates they won't release it as the last flagship incarnation of the old school dslr system with "everything Canon has" stuffed in.


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## Tugela (Mar 14, 2014)

The mirrors were there so you could see exactly what you were shooting, but were raised when the exposure was being done. The shutter in mechanical film cameras typically was a curtain in front of the film plane that moved aside.

If you don't use an optical viewfinder you don't need any of that mechanism.


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## JimKarczewski (Mar 15, 2014)

Rienzphotoz-


This is older photos (lastyear), unfortunately I haven't uploaded the latest work which is about 30 frames at 1/3 intervals for HDR.

http://www.nwipix.com/p369641141


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## Aglet (Mar 16, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > I do agree this camera will have to be extremely feature rich to be successful.
> ...



When I read the N1v3 can do ~60fps with focus locked almost made me choke on my ichiban noodles!


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## Marsu42 (Mar 16, 2014)

Aglet said:


> When I read the N1v3 can do ~60fps with focus locked almost made me choke on my ichiban noodles!



Well, at least we have Magic Lantern which can do 60fps+ raw with locked focus right now for Canon ("silent pix"), but alas, only at reduced live view resolution 1824x1224 ...


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## mkabi (Mar 17, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > When I read the N1v3 can do ~60fps with focus locked almost made me choke on my ichiban noodles!
> ...



Are you being sarcastic? Because thats actually more resolution than 1080p.
1920X1080 = 2073600
1824X1224 = 2232576


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## Marsu42 (Mar 17, 2014)

mkabi said:


> Are you being sarcastic? Because thats actually more resolution than 1080p.
> 1920X1080 = 2073600
> 1824X1224 = 2232576



True, but it's far below the full sensor res of real mirrorless like the 18mp Nikon 1 v3 - so the ML solution is no good for larger prints or cropping.


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 17, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > Are you being sarcastic? Because thats actually more resolution than 1080p.
> ...


Just curious, what exactly are people shooting at 60fps that they are going to make large prints?


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## Marsu42 (Mar 17, 2014)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Just curious, what exactly are people shooting at 60fps that they are going to make large prints?



Any fast movement with a decisive moment water drops or other often pre-arranged settings where you know the focus has to be.


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 17, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



Lol. Just for the record i picked up an eos-3 two weeks ago. For the life of me i cant figure out how to do video with it.


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## mackguyver (Mar 17, 2014)

I gave up waiting (yes, just six months to 'Kina) and I'm not sure I want to go back to crop again. I found a great deal and I have a 1DX on the way. My AMEX is crying a river :'( but I hope to make good u*$$$*e of it. 

I'm sure the 7DII will probably be announced tomorrow with all of the 1DX features, shoot 30FPS for 90 frames, be noise free up to ISO 12,800...and cost $1500...


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## Lawliet (Mar 17, 2014)

jrista said:


> We aren't talking cell phone distances here. Most EVFs are recessed at around a quarter of an inch or so, pretty much always less than an inch. At around an inch, 3000-5000ppi would do it, but at a quarter of an inch, people with better than 20/20 vision are going to see pixels.



Your whole chain of argument is consistent in missing a vital point: there is at least one optical element in from of the display. I.e. absolute and apparent size, resolution, distance to the eye,... of the display are decoupled, making the whole story somewhat amusing but nonetheless moot.

Also seeing those discreet pixels would require them to have sharp borders, absolutely no light bleeding to neighbor cells, nothing like the trinitron tube of old times. No effective AA-filterlike construct to blend colors.

Having pixels in the VF has some benefits on the one side, on the other: in favorable conditions now I see the structure of the matte screen. That's not really much better then it's electronic counterpart in the first place...


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## Nazareth (Mar 18, 2014)

TrabimanUK said:


> With the long wait, I'm erring towards a 5DIII, as time is pressing.
> 
> Unless the 7DII can rail off 10fps+ for a good 100+ images (jpeg) and has an IQ in the 5D/5DII arena, and a AF system surpassing the 5DIII, then I'll settle for 6fps ad infinitum (jpeg), great IQ and AF of the 5DIII.
> 
> By the time the 7DII makes it into the world, I doubt there'll be much price differnce, like the 5DII and the 7D when it was launched.



That's what I was thinking- They will likely be close in price, but you'll still be getting a crop sensor with the 7D- IF however, the IQ and ISO capabilities improve tremendously, then yeah, it might make it a good choice for those that want 'extra reach' of a crop sensor with great ISO capabilities- I like my current 7D, but not too crazy about higher ISO performance- that's the one area I wish it was better- and which I'd pay more for


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## Nazareth (Mar 18, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> I'm sure the 7DII will probably be announced tomorrow with all of the 1DX features, shoot 30FPS for 90 frames, be noise free up to ISO 12,800...and cost $1500...



I'll take three please


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## Marsu42 (Mar 18, 2014)

Nazareth said:


> That's what I was thinking- They will likely be close in price, but you'll still be getting a crop sensor with the 7D



That's probably also what Canon are thinking, that's why they don't release it


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 18, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> I'm sure the 7DII will probably be announced tomorrow with all of the 1DX features, shoot 30FPS for 90 frames, be noise free up to ISO 12,800...and cost $1500...


Yippy, I'm ordering two 7D MK II cameras now. ;D


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## jeffa4444 (Mar 24, 2014)

Pro-Vision offering brand new Canon 7d body with Canon UK warrenty for £ 745.00 in limited sale. Generally available with £ 100.00 cash back for £ 929.00.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 24, 2014)

jeffa4444 said:


> Pro-Vision offering brand new Canon 7d body with Canon UK warrenty for £ 745.00 in limited sale.



... which probably doesn't indicate the imminent arrival of the 7d2, but the market acceptance that the 7d1 is rather outdated sensor-wise by now :-o


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 24, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > Pro-Vision offering brand new Canon 7d body with Canon UK warrenty for £ 745.00 in limited sale.
> ...



They need to do something. They still have a tremendous stock of new and refurb 7D. Expect big fire sales soon.


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## wsmith96 (Mar 24, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> I gave up waiting (yes, just six months to 'Kina) and I'm not sure I want to go back to crop again. I found a great deal and I have a 1DX on the way. My AMEX is crying a river :'( but I hope to make good u*$$$*e of it.
> 
> I'm sure the 7DII will probably be announced tomorrow with all of the 1DX features, shoot 30FPS for 90 frames, be noise free up to ISO 12,800...and cost $1500...



That is usually my luck. I'm holding out, but the camera deals are starting to show up again.


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## mackguyver (Mar 24, 2014)

wsmith96 said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > I gave up waiting (yes, just six months to 'Kina) and I'm not sure I want to go back to crop again. I found a great deal and I have a 1DX on the way. My AMEX is crying a river :'( but I hope to make good u*$$$*e of it.
> ...


That hasn't actually happened to me, but I've missed out on the lens rebates many times, usually just by a few days. I've gotten lucky a few times, though, and caught a retailer who hadn't updated their pricing (during the instant rebate days).

Also, the 1D X is all that and more, so I have no regrets!


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## East Wind Photography (Mar 25, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> wsmith96 said:
> 
> 
> > mackguyver said:
> ...



I wouldnt exactly call the 1dx noise free...its more like a 50'cal machine gun. Which is why i did not buy one.


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## mackguyver (Mar 25, 2014)

East Wind Photography said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > wsmith96 said:
> ...


I didn't say anything about the noise, but it's only loud if you're shooting at 12FPS and you can customize the FPS. I don't think it's any louder than the 7D was 8FPS, but it's definitely not as quiet as the 5DIII silent single or high speed modes, which are amazing.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 25, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> I gave up waiting (yes, just six months to 'Kina) and I'm not sure I want to go back to crop again. I found a great deal and I have a 1DX on the way. My AMEX is crying a river :'( but I hope to make good u*$$$*e of it.
> 
> I'm sure the 7DII will probably be announced tomorrow with all of the 1DX features, shoot 30FPS for 90 frames, be noise free up to ISO 12,800...and cost $1500...



What kind of deal did you get? I am now wavering on a 1DX as one of my 1Ds MkIII's is getting tired and I really want some better IQ at over 400 iso.


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 25, 2014)

I couldn't wait for the 7D MK II any longer, so I got the 70D ... if and when they release the 7D MK II, I'll wait for the reviews and then sell my 70D to fund the 7D MK II ... lets see how that goes.


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## Phil L (Apr 7, 2014)

I have a big milestone birthday coming up on May 31 and my wife wants to buy me a special present.
Wonder what my chances are it will be a 7D MKII?


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## tron (Apr 7, 2014)

Phil L said:


> I have a big milestone birthday coming up on May 31 and my wife wants to buy me a special present.
> Wonder what my chances are it will be a 7D MKII?


Mmmmmmm zero. But I would suggest a 5DMkIII 8)


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## Don Haines (Apr 7, 2014)

Phil L said:


> I have a big milestone birthday coming up on May 31 and my wife wants to buy me a special present.
> Wonder what my chances are it will be a 7D MKII?



If you are lucky, it will be announced before May 31.... but there can be several months between announced and available, so the odds are very high that you are not getting a 7D2....


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## starship (Apr 7, 2014)

*EOS 7D Replacement coming in 2020 with an "all new" version of the 2009 sensor?*

maybe an EOS 7D replacement coming in 2020 with an "all new" version of the 2009 sensor???

i´m personally sick and tired to wait for a new canon image-sensor generation, that isn´t a derivate of the 2009 sensor.

5 years. why not 10 years? the 7d does make "ok"-photos. and in 2009 it was a great camera. like others were in the 70s.

canon doesn´t want my money, as it seems. probably, they don´t get it in future times.


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## Phil L (Apr 7, 2014)

tron said:


> Phil L said:
> 
> 
> > I have a big milestone birthday coming up on May 31 and my wife wants to buy me a special present.
> ...



Yeah that's pretty much what I figured. Looks I'll be getting a watch. :-\


----------



## Phil L (Apr 7, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Phil L said:
> 
> 
> > I have a big milestone birthday coming up on May 31 and my wife wants to buy me a special present.
> ...



I was afraid that would be the case as well. 
I bought a 7D the first week it came out in Oct. 2009 but I don't remember when it was announced.


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## whothafunk (Apr 7, 2014)

special presents are either 3some and more with several girls or a 1DX, not a 7D Mark II.


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## hardworkinjohn (Apr 7, 2014)

tron said:


> Phil L said:
> 
> 
> > I have a big milestone birthday coming up on May 31 and my wife wants to buy me a special present.
> ...



True story: I started saving for this camera 2.5 years ago. I've not had my 5DMkIII for over a year. I've started saving again and now have enough for it--want it for the 1.6X crop sensor and birding.


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## RGF (Apr 7, 2014)

tron said:


> Phil L said:
> 
> 
> > I have a big milestone birthday coming up on May 31 and my wife wants to buy me a special present.
> ...



An IOU for the camera of your choice ???


----------



## Don Haines (Apr 7, 2014)

RGF said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > Phil L said:
> ...


That could be dangerous....


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## East Wind Photography (Apr 8, 2014)

hardworkinjohn said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > Phil L said:
> ...



Are you sure you have enough for it? I mean when Canon came out with the 600mm F4L IS II no one believed it would cost over $10K. Highly likely Canon will milk our bank accounts once again with new release hype.


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## xps (Apr 8, 2014)

East Wind Photography said:


> hardworkinjohn said:
> 
> 
> > tron said:
> ...



+1
I bet: 2500-3000... And if the MPs are lower than 24, the DR just average, the AF not better than the 70Ds - even enough consumers will buy it. Because its out of the 7D - family.
On the other hand, Canon knows that other brands are not sleeping and releasing one camera after another. The new rumored D9300 looks to be an game changer in its class - if you belive the Nikonians. Maybe this is enough pressure for Canon to release an worthy successor. But then they will milk us as much they can...


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## gm_coates (Apr 11, 2014)

*My 7D wish list*
o better ISO performance ie less noise
o f/8 centre point AF
o second memory slot. eg SD

*Don't change*
o *crop factor*
o use of CF
o battery

*Not interested*
o Hinged screen
o Improved flash control

*Fantasy section*
o Bluetootooth iPhone interface
use camera functions, Liveview, tap focus , GPS tag, upload, edit and email photos
o left handed version


Sounds like I want 1D X


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## Rienzphotoz (Apr 11, 2014)

In less than 5 months, it'll be 5 years since the 7D was announced and nothing so far indicates that a 7D II will ever be released ... I've lost my interest in it and if it does get released, I most likely will not buy one.


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## Don Haines (Apr 11, 2014)

Rienzphotoz said:


> In less than 5 months, it'll be 5 years since the 7D was announced and nothing so far indicates that a 7D II will ever be released ... I've lost my interest in it and if it does get released, I most likely will not buy one.



On the other hand, if it never gets released, I most certainly will not buy one


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## thepancakeman (Apr 11, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > In less than 5 months, it'll be 5 years since the 7D was announced and nothing so far indicates that a 7D II will ever be released ... I've lost my interest in it and if it does get released, I most likely will not buy one.
> ...



On the other hand...wait, how many hands does this beast have??...I will almost certainly buy one. 8)


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## jrista (Apr 12, 2014)

Rienzphotoz said:


> In less than 5 months, it'll be 5 years since the 7D was announced and nothing so far indicates that a 7D II will ever be released ... I've lost my interest in it and if it does get released, I most likely will not buy one.



And when it turns out to be the best camera in Canon's lineup from a <insertyourpreferredfeaturehere> (1D X excluded from comparison ), you'll most definitely be interested again! 

While it is pretty odd that the 7D replacement has taken so long to deamorphize, I don't think it will arrive and be a dud, either. The 7D was (is?) one of Canon's most popular cameras, and they have to know that there are very high expectations for it's replacement. While it's certainly a personal choice whether to buy one or not, to not buy one just because it hit the streets later than you wanted is hardly a good reason. ;P And I think it's interesting for the very fact that it's taking so long...it just....HAS to be GOOD! Right?!


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## East Wind Photography (Apr 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > In less than 5 months, it'll be 5 years since the 7D was announced and nothing so far indicates that a 7D II will ever be released ... I've lost my interest in it and if it does get released, I most likely will not buy one.
> ...



It has to be better than the current 7d....so that would make it the best canon aps-c available...when it is available. Ive held out buying a 2nd 5diii. As i see it, just waiting for the pre-orders to start.


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## ems1 (Apr 13, 2014)

From the UK magazine T3 - "A firmware update in 2012 improved Canon’s aging 7D DSLR greatly, but now the Mark II is officially on the way. It’s been road-tested at the Winter Olympics and will have another outing at the World Cup before landing in time for Chrimbo"


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## Don Haines (Apr 13, 2014)

ems1 said:


> From the UK magazine T3 - "A firmware update in 2012 improved Canon’s aging 7D DSLR greatly, but now the Mark II is officially on the way. It’s been road-tested at the Winter Olympics and will have another outing at the World Cup before landing in time for Chrimbo"



I think all will agree that it will be out before Christmas.... but the big question is which Christmas?


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## mkabi (Apr 13, 2014)

ems1 said:


> From the UK magazine T3 - "A firmware update in 2012 improved Canon’s aging 7D DSLR greatly, but now the Mark II is officially on the way. It’s been road-tested at the Winter Olympics and will have another outing at the World Cup before landing in time for Chrimbo"



They need to put it through a second run through before releasing it?
Ok, at least an official announcement would be nice.


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## MintChocs (Apr 17, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> ems1 said:
> 
> 
> > From the UK magazine T3 - "A firmware update in 2012 improved Canon’s aging 7D DSLR greatly, but now the Mark II is officially on the way. It’s been road-tested at the Winter Olympics and will have another outing at the World Cup before landing in time for Chrimbo"
> ...



Ha ha ROFL


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## geonix (Apr 17, 2014)

For this extremly long time waiting, my expectations are very high now. 
The 7D replacement should be a real improvement, even better than the D7100, that was released more than a year ago. 
If it will just be a 7D with flipscreen, touchscreen, wifi and dualpixels and the overall image quality and high ISO performace will be about same as the old one or only marginally improved. That would be my last disappointment with canon.


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## East Wind Photography (Apr 17, 2014)

geonix said:


> For this extremly long time waiting, my expectations are very high now.
> The 7D replacement should be a real improvement, even better than the D7100, that was released more than a year ago.
> If it will just be a 7D with flipscreen, touchscreen, wifi and dualpixels and the overall image quality and high ISO performace will be about same as the old one or only marginally improved. That would be my last disappointment with canon.



You can get that now with the 70D...of which I was disappointed in. The best feature they added was AFMA adjustment and that was something to be excited about for those coming in from a 60D or T series.

The 7DII will likely have a LOT of video features that will drive the price up. I'm sure one thing we can ALL agree on is that we will be disappointed with the price they set as is with all of their new products.


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## mackguyver (Apr 17, 2014)

What's really sad is that I gave up waiting and bought at 1D X. Not a decision I regret, but it was a lot more than I wanted to pay for an faster frame rate than the 5DIII. The recent firmware upgrades have made it an amazing camera for wildlife photography and I'm curious to see if Canon adds some of those to the 7D II. I also fear it will be a videographer's dream camera, which means zilch to me.


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## East Wind Photography (Apr 17, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> What's really sad is that I gave up waiting and bought at 1D X. Not a decision I regret, but it was a lot more than I wanted to pay for an faster frame rate than the 5DIII. The recent firmware upgrades have made it an amazing camera for wildlife photography and I'm curious to see if Canon adds some of those to the 7D II. I also fear it will be a videographer's dream camera, which means zilch to me.



Zilch until your interest morphs and you take up wildlife videography.  I chose not to get a 1DX for a number of reasons but the number one was the shutter noise. CPS loaned me one and in drive mode it pretty much scared away everything I was photographing unless I was in a noisy environment. 12 fps is useless if you scare away your subject on shot 1.

I chose the 5DIII and while the fps is lacking in some cases it does not give me away in my blind. If I dont need the FPS, then silent mode keeps me undercover. I hope the 7D2 offers a MUCH quieter drive mode shutter than the 1DX. That might be the only show stopping thing for me. Otherwise I am pretty much waiting for the pre-orders to start.


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## geonix (Apr 18, 2014)

East Wind Photography said:


> You can get that now with the 70D...of which I was disappointed in. The best feature they added was AFMA adjustment and that was something to be excited about for those coming in from a 60D or T series.
> 
> The 7DII will likely have a LOT of video features that will drive the price up. I'm sure one thing we can ALL agree on is that we will be disappointed with the price they set as is with all of their new products.



In what way could I have significantly better IQ and high ISO performance with the 70D???? All tests and reviews I looked at say that IQ and noise has only marginally improved in the 70D. At side-by-side comparison of images at 100% you can see that. 
I want the 7D successor to at least match the sensor of the D7100, although Nikon is surely already improving that one. 
A 24MP APSC sensor with no or hardly visible noise up to ISO 1600 or even 3200 would be a milestone for Canon. But I'm afraid they are actually not even trying to achieve that. If this news about another delay due to problems with the dual-pixel senor are true, the 7D II will only be a 70Ds 

With the time and rumors after rumors without any clear statement from canon themselfs, I feel more and more fooled by them. Canon doesn't seem to realise that there are a lot of customers who want a APSC Camera for wildlife photography which is up-to-date in IQ and low ISO performance. Or maybe there are not as many as I think.


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## Don Haines (Apr 18, 2014)

geonix said:


> East Wind Photography said:
> 
> 
> > You can get that now with the 70D...of which I was disappointed in. The best feature they added was AFMA adjustment and that was something to be excited about for those coming in from a 60D or T series.
> ...


It is the focusing system. The focusing system (AFMA, focus points, live view) is far more capable on the 70D than the 60D and will give a better keeper ratio.


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## mackguyver (Apr 18, 2014)

East Wind Photography said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > What's really sad is that I gave up waiting and bought at 1D X. Not a decision I regret, but it was a lot more than I wanted to pay for an faster frame rate than the 5DIII. The recent firmware upgrades have made it an amazing camera for wildlife photography and I'm curious to see if Canon adds some of those to the 7D II. I also fear it will be a videographer's dream camera, which means zilch to me.
> ...


I understand and just can't let myself do video. I've done it in the past (pre-DSLR) and it interests me, but the cost to do it right is obscene, not to mention the storage requirements and the amount of footage you need to shoot to get a few minutes of finished video. I really don't want to test the limits of my AMEX, marriage, or sanity by getting back into video 

Besides, and not to open the debate, but to me, there's always been something more meaningful and lasting about a still vs. video. I saw an interview a year or so ago (Nikon/some war photog, I think) who talked about how many videos you can remember vs. still shots and that further cemented the idea of focusing on stills for me.

Back to the camera, I do wish the 1D X had a silent burst mode like the 5DIII, but where I shoot (swamps, subtropical forests, and coastal areas) all have so much ambient noise from insects and other creatures that the loud shutter isn't an issue for me. In the cold silent forests of New England where I grew up, or places like it, I can imagine it would scare the crap out of everything in sight. I guess that's why they let you adjust the speed down from 12fps so it's at least a bit quieter. Over the years, I've missed so many shots by missing focus or the key moment that 12fps is something that I will really get a lot out of for my work. I say it that way because I've hardly had time to use it since I've bought it, but in about a month my time will be my own again 

I prefer full frame as well and the 5DII was a revelation to me and my shooting. I came to prefer it over the 7D even with it's AF and burst speed limitations, so I'm not sure crop would interest me again unless the IQ is much better above ISO 1600 on the 7DII. With my 1D X and 300 f/2.8 II IS, I can literally start shooting (moving) wildlife before sunrise now, which gives me another 30+ minutes of shooting over the 7D and f/4 & f/5.6 lenses I used in the past. For me, that is truly a game changer.


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## geonix (Apr 24, 2014)

I wonder if the Image Quality, Dynamic Range and High ISO Performance of the 7D replacement will match the D7100, which is on the market now for over a year. Or if it will be at the same level as the 70D. 
Of course we won't know for sure until it will finally be anounced, but for some reason I am changing more and more from having high expectations to the 7D II, to beeing rather pessimistic about its features.


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## wickidwombat (Apr 25, 2014)

if it has the Same AF as the 5Dmk3 I will probably get one to use with the tamron 150-600, hopefully the body and ergonomics will be essentially the same as the 5Dmk3 and also please please use the same battery as the 5Dmk3

sigma 50mm 1.4 on the 5Dmk3 tamron 150-600 on the 7Dmk2 and the 11-22EF-M on the EOS-M and i might never have to change lenses again .... (that was sort of a joke for anyone thinking of giving me a lecture)


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## Canon1 (Apr 25, 2014)

If anything... The longer canon holds out on releasing this camera... The more they will sell on opening day.


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## Tugela (Apr 25, 2014)

Canon1 said:


> If anything... The longer canon holds out on releasing this camera... The more they will sell on opening day.



Or the less, since the camera would become increasingly outdated the longer they wait.


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 25, 2014)

I wonder whether it will have evolutionary technology like Sony are exploring:-

"Curved CMOS Image System: When light transmitted by a lens strikes a perpendicular target such as a CMOS image sensor, it forms a circle of light called an image circle. It’s difficult for a flat (planar) CMOS image sensor to deliver high image sensitivity at high resolution (highly scaled pixel pitch) because of the fundamental physical limit known as quantum efficiency. To break through that physical limit and to achieve higher sensitivity anywhere within the image circle at higher resolution, Sony built and will describe an imaging system that comprises a hemispherically curved, back-illuminated CMOS image sensor (BIS) and integrated lens. It doubles the sensitivity at the edge of the image circle while increasing sensitivity at its center by a factor of 1.4, with a 5x reduction of dark current (Jd) compared to a planar BIS. Moreover, a common problem known as lens field curvature aberration (Afc) is mitigated by the curved sensor itself, and so the curved BIS enables higher system sensitivity with a brighter lens with a smaller F number (Fn) than is possible with a planar BIS. In addition, by controlling the tensile stress of the BIS chip to produce a curved shape in the first place, the energy band-gap (Eg) is widened and a lower Jd is achieved. (Paper T2.1, “A Novel Curved CMOS Image Sensor Integrated with Imaging System,” K. Itonaga et al., Sony)"


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## Don Haines (Apr 25, 2014)

If the 7D2 was the 70D with a faster burst rate and 5D3 AF, it would sell well..... and if that is what it was, it would have been on the market a year ago. Those are tried and true technologies... very little work required to throw them together and make a camera out of them.

The wait for the 7D2 most likely is due to some new technology or feature(s). I expect a surprise here....

Possibilities are:
High speed storage - and that means faster burst rates and more FPS video...
Quad Pixel technology - and what does this mean for focusing speed, image tracking, resolution?
Smaller fabrication size - and does this impact noise, speed, and light sensitivity?
Next Gen WiFi interface - and what does this mean for remote/tethered/studio shooters?
Mirrorless - problems to be overcome but opens up new possibilities for focus and tracking
Hybrid Viewfinder - best of optical and digital combined....

Who knows? Certainly not me.. will it be worth the wait?


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## mkabi (Apr 25, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> If the 7D2 was the 70D with a faster burst rate and 5D3 AF, it would sell well..... and if that is what it was, it would have been on the market a year ago. Those are tried and true technologies... very little work required to throw them together and make a camera out of them.
> 
> *The wait for the 7D2 most likely is due to some new technology or feature(s). I expect a surprise here....*
> Possibilities are:
> ...



You could be right and/or wrong...
But if we are comparing Canon's competitors here and trying to beat them... then we have a problem. Because Canon being at number 1 is making them a huge bullseye, who were their main competitors? Nikon? Olympus? Now Sony + Panasonic...
The competitors will constantly reinvent themselves to gain market share... 
If Canon releases something tomorrow, its beat by all the other competitors the following year, now everyone is complaining that Canon isn't fast enough to respond. 

Lets be real... what are the chances that it will be the most epic camera you have ever heard of till now?


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## Marsu42 (Apr 25, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> The wait for the 7D2 most likely is due to some new technology or feature(s). I expect a surprise here....



The surprise might be that there is no surprise, Canon keeps being Canon, juggling features and trickling down tech and they simply cannot find a position for a 7d2 in their lineup between 70d and 5d3 and in comparison to the crop competition.

Btw rumor has it they'll give the 7d1 another boost and lifetime extension with the firmware 3.0 in q4/2014 as they are eager to find out how long they people keep buying a camera with a by now 6 year old sensor. With this marketing data, they can push back the 5d4 release to early 2018.


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## geonix (Apr 26, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> The surprise might be that there is no surprise, Canon keeps being Canon, juggling features and trickling down tech and they simply cannot find a position for a 7d2 in their lineup between 70d and 5d3 and in comparison to the crop competition.
> 
> Btw rumor has it they'll give the 7d1 another boost and lifetime extension with the firmware 3.0 in q4/2014 as they are eager to find out how long they people keep buying a camera with a by now 6 year old sensor. With this marketing data, they can push back the 5d4 release to early 2018.



Unfortunately they cannot improve the High-ISO performance of the sensor with another firmware and also not the resolution and dynamic range. Every thing else with the 7D is already fine.


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## East Wind Photography (Apr 26, 2014)

geonix said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > The surprise might be that there is no surprise, Canon keeps being Canon, juggling features and trickling down tech and they simply cannot find a position for a 7d2 in their lineup between 70d and 5d3 and in comparison to the crop competition.
> ...



AF is not on par with modern cameras. Between poor IQ and slow inaccurate AF (relative to new sensors) It really makes it a poor choice for a new buyer. Those two alone should imprive with the 7D2 making it a better choice. How it stacks up with 5diii and 1div, 1dx we'll see.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 26, 2014)

geonix said:


> Unfortunately they cannot improve the High-ISO performance of the sensor with another firmware and also not the resolution and dynamic range. Every thing else with the 7D is already fine.



Alas, they also won't enlarge the pixels - after adding a ff 6d to my crop 60d I found that the "elasticity", i.e. what amount of editing you can get away with w/o introducing artifacts in post is much better in ff files.

Btw you can currently add +2 stops of dynamic range on the 7d with Magic Lantern's dual_iso module and ~0.5 stop with the upcoming mini_iso module - I really depend on these for noon and sunset shots of moving objects.


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## Lawliet (Apr 26, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> The surprise might be that there is no surprise, Canon keeps being Canon, juggling features and trickling down tech and they simply cannot find a position for a 7d2 in their lineup between 70d and 5d3 and in comparison to the crop competition.


How about avoiding the "between" by making a step to the side?
I.E. take the dual photodiodes concept to its logical conclusion by pairing it with state of the art readout rates and enough processing power. For the next small frame body two foveon-like sensels. perhaps each cell read at an setting that yields the best data. Lets say half at the set/base ISO, half at the amplfication that based on metered light flux would just avoid clipping. As a bonus one could do painfree compositing off footage recorded with such a sensor.
And while we're at it - how about making the flashfrozen- and moving picture fractions equally happy at the same time? 8)

Its not that there is no room for improvement, more a matter of willingness to try the road not taken. Ask the Roxolani. :-X


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## Loren E (May 12, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> if it has the Same AF as the 5Dmk3 I will probably get one to use with the tamron 150-600, hopefully the body and ergonomics will be essentially the same as the 5Dmk3 and also please please use the same battery as the 5Dmk3
> 
> sigma 50mm 1.4 on the 5Dmk3 tamron 150-600 on the 7Dmk2 and the 11-22EF-M on the EOS-M and i might never have to change lenses again .... (that was sort of a joke for anyone thinking of giving me a lecture)



I just want the 7DII to be a 5DmkIII with an APS-C sensor that trades high ISO and dynamic range full frame glory for a nice FPS boost. (Of course high ISO and DR would hopefully be significantly improved over the current 7D but obviously won't come close to FF standards.) I doubt Canon is going to give me this 22mp-ish APS-C workhorse though.


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## TrabimanUK (May 14, 2014)

I agree.

I'd be more than happy with:

18-24MP.
10fps.
Better low light IQ up to ISO 6400, not too fussed with "1 million ISO mwahahaha!", to enable shooting in the dark, just something akin to the 5Dc or 1D IV in terms of IQ and low light ISO, .g. egrading arund ISO 1300, as it ain't going to be anywhere near the 5DII or 5DIII as it will (likely) be APS-C.
APS-C or APS-H.
Better AF, yes, maybe mixing dual pixel from the 70D with the 61 point setup from the 5DIII would be nice.
Same or lower price than the 5D III.
Released (available) before July (2014).


At the moment it's looking like I'll be getting a 5DIII to safari with, when I really want the reach of a top-end APS-C


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## Loren E (May 15, 2014)

TrabimanUK said:


> Better AF, yes, maybe mixing dual pixel from the 70D with the 61 point setup from the 5DIII would be nice.
> Same or lower price than the 5D III.



Nikon folk are lucky to have a crop camera with F8 autofocus in the D7100 - Canon really needs one!


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## Marsu42 (May 16, 2014)

Loren E said:


> Nikon folk are lucky to have a crop camera with F8 autofocus in the D7100 - Canon really needs one!



Canon decided agaist competing with Nikon on a feature/price basis and most likely this strategy will stick for some time concerning camera bodies. Obviously they just revised their pricing strategy with midrange lenses (16-35L/4), but camera models that get revised rather often is a cash source they won't give up unless threatened by their shareholders.


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