# EF 300mm f/2.8L II + 2x III (with Canon 7D mk II) or...?



## LSeries (May 18, 2015)

Do you think that EF 300mm f/2.8L II + 2x III would be a realistic option to get 600mm f/5.6 with IS for birding? I've seen some really sharp images taken with this combination, but still not sure if it's worth the price. It's possible to get the lense only for 5500 euros and I already happen to have the 2x III. Also the size and weight of this combo would be rather low. Or should just I save and get the EF 600mm f/4L II for twice price?  It's a bit on the big side, though.


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## meywd (May 18, 2015)

get both


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## LSeries (May 18, 2015)

meywd said:


> get both



Yeah, I certainly would if I were rich


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## meywd (May 18, 2015)

LSeries said:


> meywd said:
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> 
> > get both
> ...



Since the 600 f4 II is not over your budget, it boils down to whether you want to handhold or not, I have not used any of these lenses, but if I had the choice, I would get the 600 + 2x TC = 1200 which would be great, then I would wish for a hand-holdable option, at that time I would buy the 300mm.


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## candyman (May 18, 2015)

meywd said:


> LSeries said:
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> > meywd said:
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Or...get the 500 f/4 II and use it with 1.4x @700 f/5.6 and still being able to handhold the lens :


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## Eimajm (May 18, 2015)

Why a 600mm and not 500? 500mm is a much more flexible length on a crop body than 600mm, going to 700mm with 1.4 and 1000 with 2x. I have often been situations wishing I had a greater field view that would come from a 300mm or FF camera, but have never wished for a 600mm over my 500mm. 
I think you would be missing a trick if you didn't seriously consider the 500mm.


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## LovePhotography (May 19, 2015)

I have the 300, 600 2Xiii and 7D2. Tried multiple combinations. But never on BIF. Hell, hand held, I have trouble keeping the moon in the frame handheld using the 600, 2X, and 7D2. I can't imagine trying to get a BIF hand held with the 600, 2X, and 7D2.
As for the 300 + TC vs the 600 alone. For the money, I'd go with the 300 plus the TC you already have. Not much different unless you are ONE HELL of a great photographer. Weight and maneuverability alone would limit your captures versus the 300 plus TC...


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## AlanF (May 19, 2015)

My style is to use a camera and telephoto without a tripod and hand held because most of the time I walk around looking for small birds perched in the wild. I don't use mirror lock up to minimise vibration etc and so possibly don't get the best out of my gear. Having said that, I have the 5DII, 7DII, 300mm and 100-400 II. Whereas the 300 + 2xTC is absolutely brilliantly sharp on the 5DIII it isn't nearly as good on the 7DII or before that the 70D. My favourite combo is the 5DIII + 300 + 2xTC followed by the 7DII + 100-400 II +/- 1.4xTC for birding. Though for longer walks I use the 7DII.


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## Deleted member 91053 (May 19, 2015)

I use the Canon 300 F2.8 L IS Mk1 with a 2 x Mk3 extender and used to have to Canon 600 F4 L IS Mk1 so I compared them directly.
The 600 is bigger and heavier but better. The images are sharper, more detailed and hold up better in poorer light. Having said that, if the light is good, then the 300 + 2 x Mk3 can produce VERY good results. Attached is the 4th (I think) image I took with the 300 + 2 x Mk3 - un edited/sharpened etc.
There have been minor improvements in the 300 F2.8 Mk 2 and more significant improvements in the 600 F4 Mk2 so I would still expect the 600 to be better but at the expense of mobility and your wallet!
It is all down to your personal needs.


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## Busted Knuckles (May 25, 2015)

$6,000 vs. $12,000 - why are you asking?


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## Busted Knuckles (May 25, 2015)

Rent the 600 and decide for yourself - I know it seems trifling to think that a $6,000 lens with a $500 TC could match as $12,000 lens. Perhaps you might be asking if the extra $5,500 is "worth it."

If you have to ask, it isn't. Then again, there are other questions you should ask.


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## Jack Douglas (May 25, 2015)

Can't do it with my 6D but the 1D4 gave me this with 300 X2, 1250th, F10, ISO 640, just a few days ago. I'm pleased to have got it but not totally thrilled with the IQ. Anyway, that's what I got with 600 and 1.3 crop and 1.6 crop will be trickier. You have to get a lock before the moment or it's hopeless.

It's hard to come up with a more versatile lighter combination, with 300 2.8 being available when you need it. I've thought this through many times, FWIW

Jack


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## Eldar (May 25, 2015)

Jack Douglas said:


> Can't do it with my 6D but the 1D4 gave me this with 300 X2, 1250th, F10, ISO 640, just a few days ago. I'm pleased to have got it but not totally thrilled with the IQ. Anyway, that's what I got with 600 and 1.3 crop and 1.6 crop will be trickier. You have to get a lock before the moment or it's hopeless.
> 
> It's hard to come up with a more versatile lighter combination, with 300 2.8 being available when you need it. I've thought this through many times, FWIW
> 
> Jack


I think you have every right to be happy with this one. If you beat yourself up for this kind of IQ, then you´ll end up with very few keepers over a year


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## candyman (May 25, 2015)

Eldar said:


> I think you have every right to be happy with this one. If you beat yourself up for this kind of IQ, then you´ll end up with very few keepers over a year




Totally agree!




Jack Douglas said:


> Can't do it with my 6D but the 1D4 gave me this with 300 X2, 1250th, F10, ISO 640, just a few days ago. I'm pleased to have got it but not totally thrilled with the IQ. Anyway, that's what I got with 600 and 1.3 crop and 1.6 crop will be trickier. You have to get a lock before the moment or it's hopeless.It's hard to come up with a more versatile lighter combination, with 300 2.8 being available when you need it. I've thought this through many times, FWIWJack



Wonderful capture!


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## meywd (May 25, 2015)

candyman said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > I think you have every right to be happy with this one. If you beat yourself up for this kind of IQ, then you´ll end up with very few keepers over a year
> ...



+1


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## arbitrage (May 26, 2015)

The 300II + 2xIII is a deadly combo on the 7D2 (and even on the 1DX if you get close enough). I use mine a lot and I also have the 600II. The 600II for me is not about getting 600, it is getting out to 840 (where I use it most) and 1200mm. The 300+2x is good enough at 600 that it closely rivals the bare 600.

All of these images are 7D2 300II 2xIII.


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## Hjalmarg1 (May 26, 2015)

LSeries said:


> meywd said:
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> 
> > get both
> ...


+1, I have seen very good images captured with this combo. It's a very handholdable combination for birding.


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## AlanF (May 26, 2015)

The 7DII can react quite differently from FF to different lenses. The 300mm f/2.8 II looks a much better bet than the 400mm f/5.6 DO II on the 7DII, although the contest is not clear on FF. 

7DII 300mmx1.4 at 420mm f/4 vs 400mm DO II - the DO may be marginally better at f/4, but the 300x1.4 has slightly longer focal length that compensates.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=739&Camera=963&Sample=0&FLI=1&API=1&LensComp=962&CameraComp=963&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0


7DII 300mmx2 at 600mm f/8 vs 400mmx1.6 at 560 - the 300x2 is marginally better and has longer f

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=739&Camera=963&Sample=0&FLI=2&API=4&LensComp=962&CameraComp=963&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=1&APIComp=3

7DII 300mmx2 at 600mm f/8 vs 400mmx2 at 800 - there is serious degradation of the DO's image

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=739&Camera=963&Sample=0&FLI=2&API=4&LensComp=962&CameraComp=963&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=2&APIComp=2

This has put me off buying the 400 DO II even if it ever becomes available here.


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## adhocphotographer (May 26, 2015)

I was in the same situation a while ago, and went for the compromise... the 500L.... 

Smaller and lighter than the 600 (and cheaper). Longer than the 300. Works well with 1.4x TC and even 2X....

I'm very happy with my choice... but I'm also sure i would love the 300 2.8 too! 

500L IS II would be my advice... keep the couple of $K difference and go on a great birding trip somewhere!


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## Act444 (May 27, 2015)

AlanF said:


> The 7DII can react quite differently from FF to different lenses. The 300mm f/2.8 II looks a much better bet than the 400mm f/5.6 DO II on the 7DII, although the contest is not clear on FF.
> 
> 7DII 300mmx1.4 at 420mm f/4 vs 400mm DO II - the DO may be marginally better at f/4, but the 300x1.4 has slightly longer focal length that compensates.
> 
> ...



But...re-do the 300 + 2.0x vs. 400 DO + 1.4x at f5.6 and the 400 comes out ahead. The 300 + 2.0x seems to struggle a bit at 5.6 and needs to be stopped down to 6.3 or narrower for reasonable results. In the evening, when every bit of light counts, it can make a difference.

That said, I'm wrestling with the same decision (a super-tele lens for 7D2) and I keep going back and forth. I also had the 500 f4 in mind but I want something I can carry for an extended period of time without a tripod/monopod. Not making the decision easier is the fact I also have a 5D3 I use for events/general photography, and in this price range I'm also evaluating versatility.


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## Jack Douglas (May 27, 2015)

Thanks guys for the kind words on the eagle. I am the type that is never satisfied so it helps to hear these comments. The eagles on Haida Gwaii were plentiful, especially when the Haida were cleaning fish!  Actually, unbelievable and I missed so many but got some nice ones. Sadly, I crossed to the mainland of BC, Canada by ferry today.   What a wonderful place. I was told by the locals that National Geographic was there very recently and was asked if I was part of them - kept gawking at 300 X2! Got a free fresh Sockeye salmon meal - yum. Go if you ever get the opportunity.

Peace!  300 X2 1D4 800th F5.6, less than 1/10 of the frame.

Jack


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## candyman (May 27, 2015)

Jack Douglas said:


> Thanks guys for the kind words on the eagle. I am the type that is never satisfied so it helps to hear these comments. The eagles on Haida Gwaii were plentiful, especially when the Haida were cleaning fish!  Actually, unbelievable and I missed so many but got some nice ones. Sadly, I crossed to the mainland of BC, Canada by ferry today.   What a wonderful place. I was told by the locals that National Geographic was there very recently and was asked if I was part of them - kept gawking at 300 X2! Got a free fresh Sockeye salmon meal - yum. Go if you ever get the opportunity.
> 
> Peace!  300 X2 1D4 800th F5.6, less than 1/10 of the frame.
> 
> Jack



You made me laugh with this photo and 'peace'. Brilliant!
I probably will not have that opportunity. But I enjoy the posts here in this thread. So many beautiful photos!


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## Hector1970 (May 27, 2015)

Very impressed with your BIF photographs.
Is there any website or book that's particularly good at giving tips how to do this well.
I was trying some of this last weekend with a 7D II and a 100-400mm II.
I found it difficult. Wasn't sure which were the best focusing settings on the camera to use.
I was trying to catch Puffins in flight which is a relatively small bird who can move fast.
The camera (or me) couldn't focus quick enough.
I found it very hard to track them and pan with them.
I was doing it handheld. Maybe people normally do it with a gimbal head.
I found Gannets (which is a much bigger bird) easier to catch but had alot of misses too.
I assume lots of misses can be quite normal.
I found the camera at times refocusing to the cliff behind.
I have thought of a Canon 300mm 2.8 with a TC II combination. 
I'm very interested in the comments so far but I need to learn a good technique first I think.

I did mange to catch them taking off a few times. The Puffin is a beauiful bird with a great face.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fergalocallaghan/17951838059/


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## meywd (May 27, 2015)

Hector1970 said:


> Very impressed with your BIF photographs.
> Is there any website or book that's particularly good at giving tips how to do this well.
> I was trying some of this last weekend with a 7D II and a 100-400mm II.
> I found it difficult. Wasn't sure which were the best focusing settings on the camera to use.
> ...



Yeah wonderful shots Jack, I am also interested in BIF and would like to know the settings used, when I got the 5D III I started to search for the best settings for it, I think the 7D II has a more advanced AF system, but most of the settings are the same as in the 5D III, I have now two custom modes (c2,c3) for BIF, I use C3 for BIF and C2 for birds taking flight or landing:

C2:

M
1/2000 and faster
f/5.6-f/8
Auto ISO
AI Servo
High Speed Conttinuous
Case 5 with -1,2,1
AI Servo 1st and 2nd image priority @ Equal
Lens drive when AF impossible OFF

C3:

AV
F/8
Auto ISO
AI Servo
High Speed Conttinuous
Case 2 with -1,0,0
AI Servo 1st and 2nd image priority @ Equal
Lens drive when AF impossible ON

btw, beautiful shot Hector.


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## tron (May 27, 2015)

I have a reservation about focusing capabilities of a 300 2.8 + 2X combination (even with the latest versions)

Have you considered a 400mm DO II with 1.4X ?


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## Jack Douglas (May 27, 2015)

More later since I'm on the road and need to get to Rosswood BC for a try at sighting the Kermode (white) bear before heading down 16 (Yellowhead) towards Alberta. 

Strong plug for back button focus. Yes, 300 X2 can be slow (or fast). Much worse with 1D4 than 6D but there is a solution - focus to a reasonable distance so you can see a bird that comes into the viewfinder well enough to know you've got it. Then track it visually and only hit the back button focus when you've got it nailed. It will focus instantly and then the challenge is to stay steady with the camera. Fairly easy for an eagle but near impossible for many birds. 

I'm NO expert on this.

Jack


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## tron (May 27, 2015)

Act444 said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > The 7DII can react quite differently from FF to different lenses. The 300mm f/2.8 II looks a much better bet than the 400mm f/5.6 DO II on the 7DII, although the contest is not clear on FF.
> ...


Exactly Act444 is right: According to TDP 400DOII+1.4XIII is better than 300LISII+2XIII
Plus, focusing with a 2X teleconverter would be difficult even with a III version of teleconverter...


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## candc (May 27, 2015)

The problem with the 400doii is you can't get one.I dont know what the deal is with the short supply. I assume canon wants to sell them so they Need to make some first.


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## AlanF (May 27, 2015)

tron said:


> Act444 said:
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> 
> > AlanF said:
> ...



Have you ever tried focussing with a 300mm/2.8 II + 2xTC III on a 5DIII? It's spot on every time with mine.


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## Eldar (May 27, 2015)

Jack Douglas said:


> Thanks guys for the kind words on the eagle. I am the type that is never satisfied so it helps to hear these comments. The eagles on Haida Gwaii were plentiful, especially when the Haida were cleaning fish!  Actually, unbelievable and I missed so many but got some nice ones. Sadly, I crossed to the mainland of BC, Canada by ferry today.   What a wonderful place. I was told by the locals that National Geographic was there very recently and was asked if I was part of them - kept gawking at 300 X2! Got a free fresh Sockeye salmon meal - yum. Go if you ever get the opportunity.
> 
> Peace!  300 X2 1D4 800th F5.6, less than 1/10 of the frame.
> 
> Jack


Jack, this was just awesome!! Could have been the judge in Pink Floyd´s The Wall  Excellent!


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## Act444 (May 28, 2015)

AlanF said:


> Have you ever tried focussing with a 300mm/2.8 II + 2xTC III on a 5DIII? It's spot on every time with mine.



How's the tracking speed?

Also, anyone have experience with this combo on a 7D2?


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## tron (May 28, 2015)

candc said:


> The problem with the 400doii is you can't get one.I dont know what the deal is with the short supply. I assume canon wants to sell them so they Need to make some first.


Quite true...


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## AlanF (Jun 1, 2015)

Act444 said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever tried focussing with a 300mm/2.8 II + 2xTC III on a 5DIII? It's spot on every time with mine.
> ...



It's good on the 5DIII. I don't like the combo on the 7DII - it works fine, focusses well but the images lose the crispness they have on the 5DIII. I was enthusiastic about getting the 400 DO II but the delays have put me off.


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## tron (Jun 1, 2015)

AlanF said:


> Act444 said:
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> > AlanF said:
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Alan thanks for your valuable information.


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## Act444 (Jun 2, 2015)

AlanF said:


> Act444 said:
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> > AlanF said:
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Thanks, this is good to know.

Sounds like this is not the ideal way to go - a native 400+ mm lens would be better (either bare or 1.4x)


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## krisbell (Jun 2, 2015)

AlanF said:


> Act444 said:
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> > AlanF said:
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I'll just add my perspective to Alan's comments, it is good on the 5D3 _in good light_, but I have found it to be pretty poor otherwise.


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## AlanF (Jun 2, 2015)

As an addendum, at 420mm with the 1.4xTC III, it is spectacular on the 7DII.


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 21, 2015)

Why not the 400mm f2.8 IS II ? 

It is the most flexible choice if you add TCs in 

FF: 400mm @ f2.8 560mm @ f4.0 and 800mm @ f5.6 
APS-c: 1.6xFF: 640mm @ f2.8 900mm @f4.0 and 1280mm @f5.6

This covers a lot of focal lengths and the Lens is still way smaller than the 600mm. It is also cheaper and gives you f2.8 for Low Light at a longer focal length than the 300mm. 300mm is a bit short with wild animals, being good in Zoos and controlled Environment like Safari where you can close the distance


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## Act444 (Jun 21, 2015)

^ won't speak for the OP but for me personally, too heavy and too expensive. 

Looks like the 400 DO won't be available any time in the near future, which is just too bad...


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## meywd (Jun 21, 2015)

Act444 said:


> ^ won't speak for the OP but for me personally, too heavy and too expensive.
> 
> Looks like the 400 DO won't be available any time in the near future, which is just too bad...



Amazon say they have one


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## Act444 (Jun 21, 2015)

meywd said:


> Act444 said:
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> > ^ won't speak for the OP but for me personally, too heavy and too expensive.
> ...



Ah interesting, they must have just got one in. last time I checked, they were saying 1-2 months.


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## 1982chris911 (Jun 21, 2015)

Act444 said:


> ^ won't speak for the OP but for me personally, too heavy and too expensive.
> 
> Looks like the 400 DO won't be available any time in the near future, which is just too bad...



Well OP considers the 600mm which is even heavier and also costs more ... 
For my personal use I would also either take the 300mm or even the 200-400mm as I am not that much into birds.


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## Hjalmarg1 (Jun 22, 2015)

For birdding I would chose 300mm + 2X albeit of a decrease in IQ compared to the 600mm prime. The point is that for birdding, handholdability is critical for birds in flight, unless you want to concentrate on "semi-static" birds. Another factor is much better flexibility.


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