# Canon EOS 6D Mark II Poll Results



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 6, 2017)

```
We have completed our unscientific poll about the upcoming Canon EOS 6D Mark II and these are the results from your input.</p>
<h5>What is your favourite upgrade over the original EOS 6D?</h5>
<table class="results">
<tbody>
<tr class="row">
<td><strong>45 AF Points</strong></td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info"><strong>42.9% / 6,525</strong></div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>Vari-Angle touchscreen LCD</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">26.6% / 4,045</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>Resolution increase to 26.2mp</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">7.1% / 1,086</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>Dual Pixel AF</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">20.0% / 3,044</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>6.5fps</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">3.3% / 509</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><strong>CR’s Take:</strong> <em>I definitely agree with the outcome here. The added cross-type AF points is going to make the camera much more enjoyable to use over the original EOS 6D, which is my main DSLR.</em></p>
<h5>What is your biggest gripe about the Canon EOS 6D Mark II?</h5>
<table class="results">
<tbody>
<tr class="row">
<td><strong>No 4K Video Capture</strong></td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info"><strong>37.9% / 5,849</strong></div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>No Dual SD Slots</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">23.2% / 3,590</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>UHS-1 SD Slot</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">5.7% / 885</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>AF point coverage isn’t spread out enough</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">27.4% / 4,239</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>No popup flash</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">5.7% / 887</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><strong>CR’s Take:</strong> <em>I voted for the AF point spread, it does look a bit tight, though I’m sure it won’t be much of an issue once I get used to the camera. The lack of 4K recording does seem to bug a lot of people. I’m not one of them, but I do understand the frustration.</em></p>
<h5>Will you be buying the Canon EOS 6D Mark II?</h5>
<table class="results">
<tbody>
<tr class="row">
<td>Yes, it’s already been preordered</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">9.1% / 1,453</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td><strong>Maybe, but I’ll wait for real world reviews</strong></td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info"><strong>36.3% / 5,782</strong></div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>I’d love to, but I can’t afford it</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">12.7% / 2,017</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>No, this is not the camera for me</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">27.4% / 4,358</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="row">
<td>I’m leaving Canon!</td>
<td class="bar-container">
<div class="bar">
<div class="info">14.5% / 2,305</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><strong>CR’s Take:</strong> <em>I’ve preordered the camera, I don’t doubt it’ll be a great performer and be a very worthy upgrade over the EOS 6D. I like daily shooting with cameras that don’t cost a ton and if it gets stolen or broken, I’ll survive.</em></p>

<p><!--more--></p>
<hr />
<p><strong>Preorder the Canon EOS 6D Mark II:</strong></p>
<p>Canon EOS 6D Mark II Body</p>
<ul>
<li>USA $1999: <a href="https://bhpho.to/2tmBfEW">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="http://amzn.to/2sjTrPL">Amazon</a> | <a href="https://mpex.com/canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-dslr-camera-body-only.html?acc=3">Midwest Photo</a> (If ordered before July 16, free 128gb Lexar SD Card)</li>
<li>UK £1999: <a href="http://www.awin1.com/cread.php?awinaffid=292297&awinmid=6241&p=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.parkcameras.com%2Fp%2F1010062T%2Fdigital-slr-cameras%2Fcanon%2Feos-6d-mark-ii-dslr-camera-body">Park Cameras</a> | <a href="http://www.awin1.com/cread.php?awinaffid=292297&awinmid=2298&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wexphotographic.com%2Fcanon-eos-6d-mark-ii-digital-slr-camera-body-1630560%2F">WEX Photographic</a></li>
<li>Canada $2599: <a href="http://www.pjtra.com/t/TUJGRU1GTEJGRk5HSklCRkhMRklH?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrys.com%2F98225-CANON-EOS-6D-MK-II-BODY.aspx">Henry’s</a></li>
</ul>
<p>Canon EOS 6D Mark II w/24-105mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM</p>
<ul>
<li>USA $2599: <a href="https://bhpho.to/2s3TmM9">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="http://amzn.to/2triKPZ">Amazon</a> | <a href="https://mpex.com/canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-dslr-camera-with-24-105mm-is-stm-lens.html?acc=3">Midwest Photo</a> (If ordered before July 16, free 128gb Lexar SD Card)</li>
</ul>
<p>Canon EOS 6D Mark II w/24-105mm f/4L IS II</p>
<ul>
<li>USA $3099: <a href="https://bhpho.to/2tnn96a">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="http://amzn.to/2u0EWh6">Amazon</a> | <a href="https://mpex.com/canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-dslr-camera-with-24-105mm-f4l-is-ii-usm-lens.html?acc=3">Midwest Photo</a> (If ordered before July 16, free 128gb Lexar SD Card)</li>
</ul>
<p>Canon EOS 6D Mark II Body w/24-70mm f/4L IS</p>
<ul>
<li>UK £2379: <a href="http://www.awin1.com/cread.php?awinaffid=292297&awinmid=6241&p=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.parkcameras.com%2Fp%2F1010063D%2Fdigital-slr-cameras%2Fcanon%2Feos-6d-mark-ii-dslr-ef-24-70mm-f4l-is-usm-lens-kit">Park Cameras</a> | <a href="http://www.awin1.com/cread.php?awinaffid=292297&awinmid=2298&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wexphotographic.com%2Fcanon-eos-6d-mark-ii-digital-slr-camera-with-24-70mm-f4-l-is-lens-1631339%2F">WEX Photographic</a></li>
</ul>
<p>Canon BG-E21 Battery Grip for EOS 6D Mark II</p>
<ul>
<li>USA $300: <a href="https://bhpho.to/2s4e6TL">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="http://amzn.to/2u0nzgx">Amazon</a> | <a href="https://mpex.com/canon-bg-e21-battery-grip.html?acc=3">Midwest Photo</a></li>
<li>UK £199: <a href="http://www.awin1.com/cread.php?awinaffid=292297&awinmid=6241&p=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.parkcameras.com%2Fp%2F1150097F%2Fgrips%2Fcanon%2Fbg-e21-battery-grip">Park Cameras</a> | <a href="http://www.awin1.com/cread.php?awinaffid=292297&awinmid=2298&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wexphotographic.com%2Fcanon-bg-e21-battery-grip-1630561%2F">WEX Photographic</a></li>
</ul>
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```


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## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2017)

A little surprised at how low the pre-order rate is. 

Then again, the size of the vote tallies indicate either a lot of re-voting and/or a lot of once-every-launch visitors swarming the site. Not sure it's truly reflective of a once-a-week poster here.

- A


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 6, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> A little surprised at how low the pre-order rate is.
> 
> Then again, the size of the vote tallies indicate either a lot of re-voting and/or a lot of once-every-launch visitors swarming the site. Not sure it's truly reflective of a once-a-week poster here.
> 
> - A



I was just the opposite, surprised at how many pre-ordered, Considering that we have members all over the world, and many use APS-C bodies, it seemed like a large number. If 9% of the photographers ordered a new model, that would be astounding but obviously, the numbers do not reflect the entire body of photographers. I pre-ordered then changed my mind and bought a 5D MK IV. I may still get a 6D II for a 2nd body. I'm in the process of selling all my bodies, but will likely want a small body as a 2nd camera.


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## Antono Refa (Jul 6, 2017)

A big positive result is the small percentage of people who think the extra pixels are an important feature.


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## SkynetTX (Jul 6, 2017)

In my opinion 4K video recording and the high number of AF-points (45 in this case) are absolutely not important. A sensor (or a lens) that would be able to decrease the diffraction effect at f/16 and lower would make more sense.


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## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2017)

SkynetTX said:


> In my opinion 4K video recording and the high number of AF-points (45 in this case) are absolutely not important. A sensor (or a lens) that would be able to decrease the diffraction effect at f/16 and lower would make more sense.


_
*...to you.*_ I don't mean to sound unkind or that your need is not legitimate, but I presume you recognize that you are in a vapor-like minority on that position.

Don't get me wrong, solving 'that whole physics thing' and decreasing diffraction effects would be lovely for film-obsessives or those tired of focus-stacking, but I would be stunned if that even rated in the top _fifty_ things people wanted on the 6D2.

Meanwhile, I'm pretty comfortable saying the AF system upgrade is the #1 or #2 most desired item the 6D2 is bringing to the table. It was a necessary upgrade on a host of fronts -- # of points, f/8 compatibility, etc.

- A


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## Antono Refa (Jul 6, 2017)

jayt567 said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > A big positive result is the small percentage of people who think the extra pixels are an important feature.
> ...



This too shall pass.


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## leadin2 (Jul 6, 2017)

I'm surprised that the popup flash has more votes than UHS-1 SD Slot.


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## Antono Refa (Jul 6, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> SkynetTX said:
> 
> 
> > In my opinion 4K video recording and the high number of AF-points (45 in this case) are absolutely not important. A sensor (or a lens) that would be able to decrease the diffraction effect at f/16 and lower would make more sense.
> ...



There are lots of DSLR owners who don't care about video at all, or 4K video specifically.

I shoot FHD video maybe twice a year, in my nephews and nieces birthdays, e.g. of the family performing some play for the kids' entertainment, and that's it. I would buy my 5DmkIII even it didn't have any video features.

The 5DmkV/VI would probably have acceptable 4K video, then people would find some other absent feature to complain about.


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## transpo1 (Jul 6, 2017)

Hmm...interesting: 38% wanted 4K. That could be a lot more pre-orders


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## Angler13 (Jul 6, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> I definitely agree with the outcome here. The added cross-type AF points is going to make the camera much more enjoyable to use over the original EOS 6D, which is my main DSLR.



The 45 AF points sound nice in theory, but they aren't going to do much for me. I use the 6D Mk 1's center point on 99% of my images. And since all the the 6D Mk2 45 AF points are smooshed together, they seem more like one GIANT center AF point than 45 individual AF points...

And, I'm not sure anyone else noticed... but the grouping of AF points on the Canon 6D Mk 1 may actually be spread out FURTHER than the 6D Mk 2. I have attached my non scientific comparison image since I couldn't find the Mk 1's viewfinder image on Canon's site any more. Hopefully I'm wrong.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 6, 2017)

SkynetTX said:


> A sensor (or a lens) that would be able to decrease the diffraction effect at f/16 and lower would make more sense.



There is, just go with a bigger sensor. It is the laws of optics and no manufacturer can break them, though Canon have talked about methods of processing sub diffraction images with sophisticated maths and very high resolution sensors. All same sized sensors suffer from diffraction at the same rate, the bigger the sensor the higher the f stop before diffraction becomes apparent.


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## LukasS (Jul 6, 2017)

I've voted to wait for reviews but in the meantime I decided not to go with 6D2 but to stay with 5D line and ordered Mark IV. 

Although I'm happy with AF update and screen - lack of dual slot was the biggest no-no, apart from few other differences.

Will be replacing 100D for 200D - that flippy screen and DPAF will rock on that body .


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## wildwalker (Jul 6, 2017)

leadin2 said:


> I'm surprised that the popup flash has more votes than UHS-1 SD Slot.



Lol, I voted for pop up flash, only because there wasn't a 'none of these items bother me' option.

Alan.


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## Besisika (Jul 6, 2017)

transpo1 said:


> Hmm...interesting: 38% wanted 4K. That could be a lot more pre-orders


That is 5,849 people from a website that is mainly photo oriented.


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## ken (Jul 6, 2017)

I'm actually a bit surprised so many pre-ordered with so little in the way of sample images. The few images I've seen (some people shooting at Yellowstone or some other national park) and a couple of other blog sites, I was not at all impressed in regard to the IQ compared to the original 6D. I have to wait a bit longer to know what is next for me. 

Part of me wants to go with the 5D Mark IV (dual cards, higher FPS, but larger body with no tilt screen), part of me hopes sample images for the 6D Mark II come out that prove this sensor is a winner, and part of me hopes a newer Sony model comes out that convinces me to try a Sony body. I find myself reading Sony a7rii reviews and a7riii rumors lately. If they can fix the battery life issue in the next model, it may be time for a bigger change than I'd planned for. 

Either way, I can't see myself parting with my original 6D until I've lived for some time with a newer body that proves it can totally replace what I like about the 6D. 

Final note on the survey... It might have been more informative if we could have ranked those features in priority rather than choose one. I had a "top two" that were essentially ties on all those questions.


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## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2017)

leadin2 said:


> I'm surprised that the popup flash has more votes than UHS-1 SD Slot.



Some people do not shoot video or shoot high fps stills, I guess.

It's also (somewhat) hard to square that a $2k camera has to pay extra money to optically trigger another flash when a budget crop rig has that functionality on-board. I appreciate the durability and weather-sealing ramifications, limitations of a pop-up shooting over larger EF lenses, etc., but I actually think the D750 got this call right. I think a pop-up flash is useful tool in a pinch.

In absence of having one on my 5D3, I actually use the EOS M super tiny 90EX once in a while (I own a 600EX-RT but that doesn't always make it into the bag.) The 90EX is horribly underweight feature/power-wise for general use, but it has saved my bacon a few times.

- A


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 6, 2017)

What, no DR complaints  They used to take up much of the discussion, now its 4K. Whats the big hot button after than? Probably the AF spread.


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## Khalai (Jul 6, 2017)

Angler13 said:



> The 45 AF points sound nice in theory, but they aren't going to do much for me. I use the 6D Mk 1's center point on 99% of my images. And since all the the 6D Mk2 45 AF points are smooshed together, they seem more like one GIANT center AF point than 45 individual AF points...
> 
> And, I'm not sure anyone else noticed... but the grouping of AF points on the Canon 6D Mk 1 may actually be spread out FURTHER than the 6D Mk 2. I have attached my non scientific comparison image since I couldn't find the Mk 1's viewfinder image on Canon's site any more. Hopefully I'm wrong.



If you overlay 3x3 grid, you'll find that 6D has AF points quite far from nodes while 6D II fares just fine. Also, we need real life VF comparision. This illustration may not be accurate enough. We'll see in less than a month


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## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> What, no DR complaints  They used to take up much of the discussion, now its 4K. Whats the big hot button after than? Probably the AF spread.



I think the 6D2 will sell very well, but when a.... 

$2200 D760 comes out that looks like a 5D4 (e.g. 8 fps + 4K + dual slots), or an 

$1800 A7 III comes out with IBIS + 4K + a bajillion AF points

...folks are gonna grumble. That's what they do.

- A


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## amorse (Jul 6, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> What, no DR complaints  They used to take up much of the discussion, now its 4K. Whats the big hot button after than? Probably the AF spread.



I'm withholding my DR complaints until I see a full review and find some raw files to tinker with :

It's all speculation until then!


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## mashuto (Jul 6, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> What, no DR complaints  They used to take up much of the discussion, now its 4K. Whats the big hot button after than? Probably the AF spread.



Can't complain about something we have no real info about... Also it wasnt one of the options.

Personally, I preordered, but DR is my biggest hesitation with my preorder right now. I like the features of the camera, but for the value to really be worth the cost for me, I need better DR and improved shadow/noise performance.

As of right now, all we have to go on is that early previewers say quality is increased over the original 6D, but theres been no way to measure it.

The DPReview article was a bit disappointing there too since the samples were just ok, though unless I am remembering wrong, they werent allowed to take raw files home with them to really play with them. But it also had a mention of a canon rep saying DR wouldnt be at the same level as the 5D4. And that worries me.

Do full reviews usually come out before release? Because I have until then to change my mind. Been considering the 5D4 a bit too, it has DR more in line with what I want, the 30MP would be a nice boost over 26, but its quite a bit more than I want to spend and has a lot of features I just dont care about and will never use (including 4k video). Plus its missing at least one feature I am actually looking forward to having again, the screen.


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## Luds34 (Jul 6, 2017)

wildwalker said:


> leadin2 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised that the popup flash has more votes than UHS-1 SD Slot.
> ...



Hah, I was in a similar boat. I voted for the AF spread not being wide enough while understanding the spread usually only gets so wide on the full frame sensor.

My votes fell with CR's take, with the big plus being the 45 point AF system and that I pre-ordered. Looking forward to getting the new toy!


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## Luds34 (Jul 6, 2017)

ken said:


> I'm actually a bit surprised so many pre-ordered with so little in the way of sample images.



I feel any thinking that the 6D2 IQ/sensor won't be better than the 6D would be naive. And as one who thoroughly enjoyed the sensor in the 6D, it really doesn't become a concern. I expect to see a nice little bump in DR and high ISO shooting as we did in the 80D and 5D4 compared to their predecessors. Either way, it can't be worse than the 6D, only better.


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## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2017)

I keep seeing DR come up on this thread. Just curious why there is any doubt on the DR side of things. See below -- these are the three sensors to come out with the on-chip ADC sensors. 

See a trend on the DR figures. Why would anyone suspect that number would mysteriously plummet with the 6D2?

- A


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## hbr (Jul 6, 2017)

At 12:03 am on the 29th I noticed the Canon announcement. I already had the B&H Photo Video website up. At 12:05 am I saw the preorder notice on B&H and by 12:10 am I had mine ordered. I did not even check to see how the actual specs matched up with the rumored ones. 
I felt that with the Digic 7 and on chip ADC the final RAW files should be quite a bit better than the Mark I. I will soon know if I was right or not on this. I also wanted the 45 point AF, Tilt/flip screen and DPAF. 

Brian


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## james75 (Jul 6, 2017)

Yeah the canon rep at the b&h livecast said the 5d4 sensor will probably still be a little better.


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## Khalai (Jul 6, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > What, no DR complaints  They used to take up much of the discussion, now its 4K. Whats the big hot button after than? Probably the AF spread.
> ...



Folks are gonna grumble, 6D II price are gonna tumble (down I hope)


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## snappy604 (Jul 6, 2017)

didn't vote (meant to).. 4k would've been nice but not a show stopper. Honestly puzzled by the small spread and by the pop up flash removal. 

The flash was something I used a fair bit to control my other external canon flashes. Yeah I know you can get another unit, but why nerf a useful feature?

Other than being FF over Crop, seems too similar to my 80D, in some was a step back.. now feeling rather luke warm until I see reviews. Not sure I'll be getting one.

Canon used to have some pretty serious breakthroughs... dual pixel is nice, but I don't see how to effectively use it hand held for fast moving objects (kids, birds, planes, sports etc). Really scratching my head over the release. Not given up, but certain not enthused.


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## Jopa (Jul 6, 2017)

No pop-up flash, no retractable selfie stick, no Hello Kitty UI skin, no direct upload to Snap Chat... WTF Canon????????????? Gonna pass


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## Jopa (Jul 6, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > What, no DR complaints  They used to take up much of the discussion, now its 4K. Whats the big hot button after than? Probably the AF spread.
> ...



You probably didn't follow Sony price trends...Every new camera adds about 10-20% $ of its predecessor, and they keep the predecessor on the market as well. So the A7III will be at least $2k. Yes, it will have a bajillion half-dead pixels known as "AF points"...


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## amorse (Jul 6, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> I keep seeing DR come up on this thread. Just curious why there is any doubt on the DR side of things. See below -- these are the three sensors to come out with the on-chip ADC sensors.
> 
> See a trend on the DR figures. Why would anyone suspect that number would mysteriously plummet with the 6D2?
> 
> - A



My grumblings are directly related to this comment from DPR:

"_According to Canon representatives, the 6D Mark II should outperform the original 6D (which it very evidently does) but may not offer the same kind of dynamic range and absolute resolution of the EOS 5D Mark IV_."

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8979194861/the-same-but-different-canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-shooting-experience

I think I (like many others) incorrectly expected that the 6D II would be equivalent to or better than the 5D IV in Dynamic Range since that was what happened with the 6D release after the 5D III. Also, I always understood that Canon's perspective on sensor quality was that Canon always puts the best sensor technology available into their cameras regardless of where it fits into their line. This has also been in line for their last several offerings (i.e. cameras released later seem to have better DR than whatever camera came before it regardless of price point - i.e. 5D IV>1DXII>80D> etc. etc.). 

With the reported suggestion from a Canon representative that dynamic range will not be equivalent to the 5D IV, that suggests a break in this perceived trend. Dynamic range is my most desired improvement, and if the 6D II isn't as good as the 5D IV, I'll look at the 5D IV or wait for a 5DSR II. 

That DPR article is the only place I've seen that comment on DR, so it is all truly speculation at this point. That's enough to make me wait to see some full reviews before I decide what I buy.

To be clear - I don't think Canon is ******* or making huge mistakes. I'm just trying to be responsible with my purchasing choices based on my needs, and this is my biggest yet-unanswered question which I thought I knew the answer to... until that DPR article.


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## Khalai (Jul 6, 2017)

amorse said:


> My grumblings are directly related to this comment from DPR:
> 
> "_According to Canon representatives, the 6D Mark II should outperform the original 6D (which it very evidently does) but may not offer the same kind of dynamic range and absolute resolution of the EOS 5D Mark IV_."
> 
> ...



DPR has used third party software with no proper support. Let's wait until there are cameras in the field, multiple reviews released and then we can make some conclusions. I never trust a single source, always need some verification from another sources...


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## mashuto (Jul 6, 2017)

Khalai said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > My grumblings are directly related to this comment from DPR:
> ...



My thoughts mirror amorse, that it was the expectation that since it is their newest sensor, it would be the best performing one, as was the case with the 6D when compared with the 5D3.

Anyways, what concerns me most is just that dpreview is a large and I think reputable source who got that directly from canon representatives.

So I am not expecting it to perform worse than the original 6D in any way, I just am concerned that the improvement may not necessarily be as large as some of us were expecting or hoping.

And I am not trying to jump to a conclusion, only that is is still unknown and is my one source of hesitation here because we just dont know how much of an improvement over the original it actually will be... and obviously the worrying quote from that dpreview article.


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## stevelee (Jul 6, 2017)

I have not pre-ordered the camera. It is very likely that I will buy one, but I prefer to buy it locally, after I have held it in my hand and looked through the viewfinder. I probably won't have the good sense to wait for the price to come down. My main decision will be which, if any, of the kit lenses to buy. My guess is that the 3.5-5.6 STM lens will be fine for my purposes, and I don't need to spend the extra $600 for the f/4 L version. If the weather is bad, I'm not going to be out taking pictures. If I want more speed or sharpness, I'll use one of the primes I already have, and will likely add to their number after I get used to the camera and decide what focal lengths I feel like I miss.

I'm coming from a very different place from most of the posters here. I'm looking toward an upgrade from a T3i. When the 80D came out, I considered getting it, but decided to consider going full frame, and wait to see what the 6D II would be like. The wait has been longer than I was expecting. But I don't really need the camera; I just would like to have it.

As it is, I don't even take the T3i with me when I travel. I have a G7X Mark II that fits in my pocket and makes really nice pictures. I shoot RAW and let Photoshop do the corrections for the little lens. The camera was a nice upgrade from my previous S95 and S120 cameras, from which I have quite decent framed 12" x 18" prints, printed with my Epson R3000, hanging on my walls. I'm about to print off a couple GX7 shots from a recent trip to Scotland to add to the collection.

As for video, I have shot 4K using my iPhone. (Your snickers do not offend me.) The extra resolution allowed me to crop significantly when editing. I don't think I will miss 4K on a camera that can use zoom lenses. The default AF on the G7X works for me, so the lack of spread on 45 AF points is not likely to freak me out any time soon. I enjoy reading the comments of others who have different needs and interests. But I'm coming from a very different baseline, and I answered the poll accordingly.


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## amorse (Jul 6, 2017)

Khalai said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > My grumblings are directly related to this comment from DPR:
> ...



I absolutely agree, that's the only option here for those of us who want a lot of DR. That's why I'm not pre-ordering - if DR is better on a 5D IV, I'll get that instead. I don't think the DPR comments on DR were based on their own assessment, however - they were reporting on what a Canon rep had said. For all that any of us know, that rep was full of it or misquoted by DPR, but until I see some real-world tests I'll keep my money in my bank account.


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## snappy604 (Jul 6, 2017)

Jopa said:


> No pop-up flash, no retractable selfie stick, no Hello Kitty UI skin, no direct upload to Snap Chat... WTF Canon????????????? Gonna pass



While it may not be useful to you, the pop up flash allows you to control other canon flashes and their settings. It's quite handy if you use external flashes and more useful to me than GPS, Bluetooth or NFC


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## Khalai (Jul 6, 2017)

amorse said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > amorse said:
> ...



Preorder is bound for early acquisition syndrome anyway. If we could wait almost five years for 6D II, we can surely wait a few weeks more, it makes no difference. I secretly believe that 6D II will be on par with 5D IV or 1DX II concerning DR. If they can squeeze over 13 stops from 80D (according to DxO), they can surely do better with 6D II.


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## Khalai (Jul 6, 2017)

snappy604 said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > No pop-up flash, no retractable selfie stick, no Hello Kitty UI skin, no direct upload to Snap Chat... WTF Canon????????????? Gonna pass
> ...



AFAIK no Canon FF camera bodies ever had flash unit. Correct me if I'm wrong of course. This was expected, no suprise there...


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 6, 2017)

amorse said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I keep seeing DR come up on this thread. Just curious why there is any doubt on the DR side of things. See below -- these are the three sensors to come out with the on-chip ADC sensors.
> ...



and yet many others were saying that theory was pretty much a fallicy.

especially when the 77D/T7i did *NOT* get the 80D sensor, but a lower quality one.


----------



## mashuto (Jul 6, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



I guess the expectation is more in line with the 5d3 and 6d releases. The original 6D was a match or slightly beat the sensor in the 5d3, so the hope/expectation/whatever you wanna call it is that the 6DII would be a match for the sensor in the 5D4.


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## Jopa (Jul 6, 2017)

snappy604 said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > No pop-up flash, no retractable selfie stick, no Hello Kitty UI skin, no direct upload to Snap Chat... WTF Canon????????????? Gonna pass
> ...



Optical triggering is not much useful if you shoot 1) outdoors 2) with soft boxes / large non-translucent umbrellas in front of the camera. Yongnuo radio transceivers cost like $30, so I don't think it would be any reasonable use of the popup flash except of wasting space and adding unnecessary bulk.


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## StudentOfLight (Jul 7, 2017)

hbr said:


> At 12:03 am on the 29th I noticed the Canon announcement. I already had the B&H Photo Video website up. At 12:05 am I saw the preorder notice on B&H and by 12:10 am I had mine ordered. I did not even check to see how the actual specs matched up with the rumored ones.
> I felt that with the Digic 7 and on chip ADC the final RAW files should be quite a bit better than the Mark I. I will soon know if I was right or not on this. I also wanted the 45 point AF, Tilt/flip screen and DPAF.
> 
> Brian


The ADC is important for RAW quality. 

I stand to be corrected, but I don't think Digic has anything to do with RAW image quality. I believe it's responsible for calculations like autofocus, flash power, scene recognition, exposure calculations, face recognition, compression for jpeg and video... 

The big feature that Digic 7 adds over previous processors is digital image stabilization in video.


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## hbr (Jul 7, 2017)

StudentOfLight said:


> hbr said:
> 
> 
> > At 12:03 am on the 29th I noticed the Canon announcement. I already had the B&H Photo Video website up. At 12:05 am I saw the preorder notice on B&H and by 12:10 am I had mine ordered. I did not even check to see how the actual specs matched up with the rumored ones.
> ...



You may very well be right, but I remember when the original came out reviewers were saying the reason the 6D was better in signal to noise ratio to the 5D III was that it had the Digic 6 and the 5D had a Digic 5+. But again, reviewers are often not technical people>


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jul 7, 2017)

hbr said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > hbr said:
> ...



S/N has zero to do with the processor and only to do with read noise and full well capacity.


----------



## amorse (Jul 7, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



I prefer to call that perspective wishful thinking based on past relationships between camera lines 

You're right though, the theory was never a guarantee and now that at least one review has suggested that DR will not be on par with the 5D IV, it just means people like me really need to wait and see just how far from par the 6D II is. I'm fine with that.

Although, I was under the impression that the 77D and the T7i got the exact same sensor as the 80D except with a Digic 7 processor in the 77D and T7i where the 80D got a Digic 6? I can't find any comparative tests that indicate any difference in image quality or dynamic range?


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## canonlover (Jul 7, 2017)

I like the idea of 4k. I think it would have been a good addition for "future proofing"

Having said that i wonder how many people even have a 4k monitor and a pc powerful enough to edit 4k video?

I suspect the majority of persons for whom who this camera was intended for (Casual/Enthusiast photographers) do not have this now. 

But this will excel at FullHD video which most people have access to and can truly utilize. Having said all of this its a still camera not a video cam.

The 6d mk2 will sell like hotcakes no matter what the naysayers say


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## mashuto (Jul 7, 2017)

amorse said:


> I prefer to call that perspective wishful thinking based on past relationships between camera lines
> 
> You're right though, the theory was never a guarantee and now that at least one review has suggested that DR will not be on par with the 5D IV, it just means people like me really need to wait and see just how far from par the 6D II is. I'm fine with that.



Yea... well I in the exact same boat as you, except that I preordered. And this is the one thing that makes me hesitant about the preorder... I too thought it would share a similar relationship to the 5d4 that the original shared with the 5d3. If this falls significantly short, that would be quite a disappointment. A stop and a half extra DR would be great, 1 stop, less so, and anything less than that will probably make this not worth it.

So the question for me is whether any of this information will actually come out before the ship date so I can determine if I need/want to cancel.


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## dak723 (Jul 7, 2017)

amorse said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > amorse said:
> ...



And the DR between the 6D II and the 5D IV will be so close that there will be no difference in real life shooting - although I know people here are more interested in test results.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 7, 2017)

The only people who have suggested a small question mark on the 6D MkII DR are the original DRones, DPReview. 

They are full of sh!t and liars. They have been proven to be utterly dishonest and disingenuous on this very subject when relating specifically to Canon cameras. We have even had Rishi himself here trying to distract from his outright lies. I am no conspiracy theorist I am just relaying easily verified facts. At the very least they call out Canon DR for page hits, even when a Canon model bests a competitors comparable model they still under score it or kill it with feint praise.

Anybody that trusts DPReviews comments on Canon DR is buying into their nonesense.


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## amorse (Jul 7, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> The only people who have suggested a small question mark on the 6D MkII DR are the original DRones, DPReview.
> 
> They are full of sh!t and liars. They have been proven to be utterly dishonest and disingenuous on this very subject when relating specifically to Canon cameras. We have even had Rishi himself here trying to distract from his outright lies. I am no conspiracy theorist I am just relaying easily verified facts. At the very least they call out Canon DR for page hits, even when a Canon model bests a competitors comparable model they still under score it or kill it with feint praise.
> 
> Anybody that trusts DPReviews comments on Canon DR is buying into their nonesense.



I hope you're right! I would love for DPReview to be completely off base here. I'll definitely be waiting patiently for some real world reviews - I'm not inclined to pre-order anything anyway.


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## Aglet (Jul 7, 2017)

the 5d4 is kind of expensive
the 6d2 is less so, altho it will initially be somewhat overpriced

Even if they are equipped with exactly the same sensor, there are still other factors that can affect the overall DR and IQ, especially when it comes to read noise, even tho the ADCs are on-sensor.

Little details like layout, shielding and power supply quality often take a bit of a hit to reach lower price points in the first part of the design cycle.

So it's quite probably that the 6d2 will be significantly improved compared to the original 6D or 5d3 but it's also quite possible that it will lag slightly in comparison to the pricier 5D4.

We won't know until some proper lab tests are done someplace like DxOmark...
Or, for Neuro's sake, some lens-cap-on shots which can provide the same data but don't have the same panache.


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## tomscott (Jul 7, 2017)

I think its crazy people expect the 6DMKII to be better than the 5DMKVI.

The 6D vs the 5DMKIII that people keep going on and on about was so minimal that only in extreme cases would it be perceivable.

You guys are beyond splitting hairs. Im sorry but if you cant get a decent image with 5DMKVIs DR then the 6DMKII really isnt going to cut it for you.

Some of these comments are absolute gold. Get off the computer and shoot some images.

It always makes me laugh as there is probably 1% of photographers on CR who actually post images. The rest bitch and moan about theoretical situations of recovering shadows of a subject they never actually go and shoot.


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## asl (Jul 7, 2017)

canonlover said:


> I like the idea of 4k. I think it would have been a good addition for "future proofing"
> 
> Having said that i wonder how many people even have a 4k monitor and a pc powerful enough to edit 4k video?
> 
> ...



Probably true.

But for many I think the (planned) lifespan of such camera as the 6dII is to long to not have 4K.

(I do not buy the "stills camera" argument, from what I have seen dpaf is probably the best video af there is in this segment and stm lenses are mainly made for video af, they are slow for stills in my experiences.)


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## Don Haines (Jul 7, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> The only people who have suggested a small question mark on the 6D MkII DR are the original DRones, DPReview.
> 
> They are full of sh!t and liars. They have been proven to be utterly dishonest and disingenuous on this very subject when relating specifically to Canon cameras. We have even had Rishi himself here trying to distract from his outright lies. I am no conspiracy theorist I am just relaying easily verified facts. At the very least they call out Canon DR for page hits, even when a Canon model bests a competitors comparable model they still under score it or kill it with feint praise.
> 
> Anybody that trusts DPReviews comments on Canon DR is buying into their nonesense.



Anyone in doubt about DPreview should look at the lens ratings.... They rate Canon's cheapest lens as higher than Canon's most expensive lens.... that's right, the 50F1.8 is BETTER than the 600F4! Something is wrong with a system that gives such results, and seriously wrong with those who defend it!


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## dak723 (Jul 7, 2017)

tomscott said:


> I think its crazy people expect the 6DMKII to be better than the 5DMKVI.
> 
> The 6D vs the 5DMKIII that people keep going on and on about was so minimal that only in extreme cases would it be perceivable.
> 
> ...



Thank you for having the guts to state the obvious! There are far too many folks on CR that are only interested in the tech and the test results. Photographers were taking great shots with perfectly good IQ with the original digital rebel, the 5D, the 5D II and every crop and FF digital camera ever made. The pixel peepers and lens cap photographers have made a joke out of this forum. It's time for them to learn how to take a real picture and learn about composition, lighting and the elements that make a good photo. DR is not one of those elements. Noise (or lack of) is not one of those elements. The 6D takes great photos and with on sensor ADC the 6D will be slightly better. It's really that simple.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 7, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> Anyone in doubt about DPreview should look at the lens ratings.... They rate Canon's cheapest lens as higher than Canon's most expensive lens.... that's right, the 50F1.8 is BETTER than the 600F4! Something is wrong with a system that gives such results, and seriously wrong with those who defend it!



Well, it's all about your scoring criteria. For example, I could score the 50/1.8 as a 65, the 24-70/2.8L II as an 18, and the 600/4L II as 0.5...and that would make perfect sense if my scoring criterion was how many lenses would fit in a 20 L bucket.


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## mashuto (Jul 7, 2017)

tomscott said:


> I think its crazy people expect the 6DMKII to be better than the 5DMKVI.
> 
> The 6D vs the 5DMKIII that people keep going on and on about was so minimal that only in extreme cases would it be perceivable.
> 
> ...



It sounds like you might in part be referring to me since I am one of those that has brought up DR.

And yes, I am splitting hairs, because to me that is in part what is going to determine whether purchasing the camera is worth it, to me. And I am not expecting it to be better than the 5d4, only an expectation that it would match image quality similarly to how the 6D matched the 5D3. So, for me if the 6D2 matches the 5D4, thats what I am hoping for. Or if its close enough that there is no perceivable difference. I just want a noticeable improvement over the original 6D. And if I am splitting hairs its because I have $2000 on the line and want to make sure its a justified purchase.

So, yes I get it, people seem way more interested in tech and seem to ignore the fact that our existing cameras already take perfectly good images. Except we are in a thread in a forum specifically discussing a new piece of gear... do you not expect us to, i dont know, discuss it?

I can get perfectly useable shots with my current 6D's DR, let alone what the 5D4 offers. But if I am paying this much for a camera right now, I want DR to be an improvement, and we are simply discussing how much it might be, since its kind of unknown right now. Thats just important to me, so thats why I am discussing it.

And you are right, I do need to get out and shoot more... but when I cant, i might as well come discuss a camera I am interested in. And for that matter, what are you doing in this thread?


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## Sporgon (Jul 7, 2017)

The biggest issue for me in changing to the on-chip ADC cameras is Canon's delightful engineering in leaving the .CR2 files totally uncooked. I believe that they are the only camera company to do so, and long may it survive the attempts of the likes of DPR to do raw comparisons and trash Canon. 

The reason that leaving them uncooked is such a good thing is that more advanced raw converters can make a better job of them, specifically in holding highlights, among other things. This means that cameras such as the 5D and 5DII have been given a significant "up date" if you shoot in raw, and the ability to ETTR more when faced with strong highlights and shadows has thanks to these converters given the whole "DR" a real boost by keeping the bottom end of shadows up off the base. 

If we still had the same raw converters from 2009, or are shooting jpeg only, then I would jump on the 6DII in a flash, but thanks to Canon giving us unadulterated RAWs I'm really not convinced that I'll see the £2,000 worth of improvement in my images.


----------



## amorse (Jul 7, 2017)

mashuto said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > I think its crazy people expect the 6DMKII to be better than the 5DMKVI.
> ...



As the only other person asking questions about DR in this thread, I agree with this. No doubt splitting hairs, but when I expect this to be my main body for the next 4 years I want to be sure I pick what's right for me - neither the 5D IV nor the 6D II is cheap. I don't think either of us are bitching, both have said we'd take which ever camera has better DR - the 5D IV or the 6D II. I just want to see some real world reviews before I decide what I buy. God forbid I make a purchase decision based on evidence and my own needs. For all any of us know the 6D II images will be indiscernible from the 5D IV images, or DPReview is full of it and the 6D II's DR is better than the 5D IV - I'd just like to have that question answered before I choose one.

As for getting off the computer and shooting, my canonrumors internet link (the little globe to the left) connects to my flickr and I am out shooting every week. I really like the images I get from my 6D, and I have always felt that if I could improve only one thing about it, it would be DR since I am frequently getting into situations where the images are clipped on both sides of the histogram. I use ND grads regularly to compensate for that problem, but that obviously comes with other problems, and frankly, it would be a treat if that wasn't as big of a barrier for my next camera.


----------



## Sporgon (Jul 7, 2017)

amorse said:


> As for getting off the computer and shooting, my canonrumors internet link (the little globe to the left) connects to my flickr and I am out shooting every week.
> 
> I really like the images I get from my 6D, and I have always felt that if I could improve only one thing about it, it would be DR since I am frequently getting into situations where the images are clipped on both sides of the histogram.



I'm surprised you manage this with the 6D. Which raw converter do you use ? If you are shooting unmodified JPEG then I doubt the 6DII will make much difference to that.


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## amorse (Jul 7, 2017)

Sporgon said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > As for getting off the computer and shooting, my canonrumors internet link (the little globe to the left) connects to my flickr and I am out shooting every week.
> ...



I use Adobe Camera Raw, and often further process in photoshop to get the "look" I'm after. I don't think I have ever even taken a jpg with my 6D to be fair since post processing is (obviously) a key part of my workflow. I just want as much latitude as possible for post processing.

I'm not expecting the 6D II to shake the ground, and to be fair it doesn't need to. The 6D is an incredibly capable camera for my needs. But for those few situations where I'm deciding whether or not I can get away with a 3 stop ND grad for the sky or if I need to add another 2 stop ND grad, buying a new body is worth the money to me if I can reduce the glass/resin between my lens and my subject.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 7, 2017)

amorse said:


> I'm not expecting the 6D II to shake the ground, and to be fair it doesn't need to. The 6D is an incredibly capable camera for my needs. But for those few situations where I'm deciding whether or not I can get away with a 3 stop ND grad for the sky or if I need to add another 2 stop ND grad, buying a new body is worth the money to me if I can reduce the glass/resin between my lens and my subject.



Sorry, but if you are expecting the difference between the 6D and 6DII sensors to obviate the need for an extra 2-stops of attenuation (or even anywhere near a full stop), then you're not only expecting the 6DII to 'shake the ground', frankly…you're expecting the impossible. 

I'm not going to call you crazy for such an expectation, but like me ol' Irish da used to say, "Wish in one hand and sh!t in the other, and see which fills up first."


----------



## mashuto (Jul 7, 2017)

amorse said:


> As the only other person asking questions about DR in this thread, I agree with this. No doubt splitting hairs, but when I expect this to be my main body for the next 4 years I want to be sure I pick what's right for me - neither the 5D IV nor the 6D II is cheap. I don't think either of us are bitching, both have said we'd take which ever camera has better DR - the 5D IV or the 6D II. I just want to see some real world reviews before I decide what I buy. God forbid I make a purchase decision based on evidence and my own needs. For all any of us know the 6D II images will be indiscernible from the 5D IV images, or DPReview is full of it and the 6D II's DR is better than the 5D IV - I'd just like to have that question answered before I choose one.
> 
> As for getting off the computer and shooting, my canonrumors internet link (the little globe to the left) connects to my flickr and I am out shooting every week. I really like the images I get from my 6D, and I have always felt that if I could improve only one thing about it, it would be DR since I am frequently getting into situations where the images are clipped on both sides of the histogram. I use ND grads regularly to compensate for that problem, but that obviously comes with other problems, and frankly, it would be a treat if that wasn't as big of a barrier for my next camera.



I actually just joined this forum specifically because I wanted to discuss this camera. I also know I don't shoot nearly as much as I should, but as a hobbyist its often difficult to get out and real life has a habit of getting in the way. And regardless of others opinions of whether I should be buying a camera, well... I have my reasons, plus its my money to do what I want.

So, the decision for me to buy a new camera is not one I take lightly. Unlike you amorse, my decision is actually more of a decision between the 6DII and nothing. And even though I can afford the camera, its a lot of money to spend. And part of the reason I am questioning it is because I know my current camera is more than capable and I am more than happy with it. But the combination of features and an expectation of improved IQ through better DR is what would make it worth it to me. So yea, splitting hairs about the DR because without the improvement (or enough of an improvement) the value of the the 6D2 just might not be worth the cost for me personally.

I know its a ridiculous and small thing to argue about especially since we dont know, but again, isnt that the whole point of this forum? So we have a place to discuss?

And just like you amorse, the things I enjoy shooting, I often find that the DR of the 6D isnt enough. Though for me, its usually one side of the histogram that gets clipped. Most of my shooting now involves bracketing and I feel I have become quite proficient at my blending techniques, but if I can minimize that and get the whole shot in a single frame I would be a very happy camper. So thats why I care about the DR of this new camera. If the improvement is small enough to not be readily noticeable in the real world then I have to seriously question if the features alone make this a worthwhile upgrade (for the price). And thats why I split hairs, and thats why I care about benchmarks and tests. Because its something quantifiable. The 1.5 extra stops of DR that the 5d4 has over the 6D seems like it would be noticeable improvement, but if the 6D2 clocks in somewhere lower (an unknown amount lower) that to me is questionable as to whether the improvement is noticeable.

I also am fully aware that at this point, all differences are going to be marginal at best. And even a stop and a half of extra DR won't be an earth shattering difference. But again, is it noticeable and can it impact my normal workflow and make things easier for me. I think a stop and a half might, a stop or less, I am not so sure about. So again, I split hairs because its a lot of money to spend.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 7, 2017)

mashuto said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > As the only other person asking questions about DR in this thread, I agree with this. No doubt splitting hairs, but when I expect this to be my main body for the next 4 years I want to be sure I pick what's right for me - neither the 5D IV nor the 6D II is cheap. I don't think either of us are bitching, both have said we'd take which ever camera has better DR - the 5D IV or the 6D II. I just want to see some real world reviews before I decide what I buy. God forbid I make a purchase decision based on evidence and my own needs. For all any of us know the 6D II images will be indiscernible from the 5D IV images, or DPReview is full of it and the 6D II's DR is better than the 5D IV - I'd just like to have that question answered before I choose one.
> ...



Keep in mind that DPreview has NOT had a camera to review. All they have is some pictures of someone holding a camera at an event WHERE YOU WERE NOT ABLE TO PUT A MEMORY CARD INTO THE CAMERA! They also have a lot of comments on their forum from other people who have never touched the camera....

It is hard to evaluate image quality without an image, and that is where DPR sits..... no data, lots of opinion.

If you think about this logically, with the same (or newer) technology in the sensor, and with a slightly lower megapixel count, the expectation is that the 6D2 should have a slightly higher DR than the 5D4 (but not enough to notice outside of a calibrated lab test bench). 

Anyone saying it will be 1.5 stops lower is delusional, particularly when Canon has said it will be "slightly" better than the 5D4... That said, what you want is an independent review from a respected source, not DPR, (who thinks you can get 15 bit numbers in a 14 bit file......), and that will have to wait until after the camera is released.


----------



## Hornet (Jul 7, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> A little surprised at how low the pre-order rate is.
> 
> Then again, the size of the vote tallies indicate either a lot of re-voting and/or a lot of once-every-launch visitors swarming the site. Not sure it's truly reflective of a once-a-week poster here.
> 
> - A



I think Canon might be concerned that more people say they will leave Canon than are pre-ordering.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 7, 2017)

Hornet said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > A big positive result is the small percentage of people who think the extra pixels are an important feature.
> ...



This forum does not represent the typical Canon consumer (we are almost the opposite), plus forums are notorious for the amount of trolling that happens. Every time a new camera is released, you get a barrage of "death of Canon" and "I am leaving now" comments.... and despite the amount of noise these people make, they are an insignificant minority.

Think of it as driving on a multi-lane highway between two cities..... you see 100,000 cars.... 99,999 are driving well and one is a total idiot.... which one do you remember? The same holds for the trolls and the fanboys. Statistically, they are insignificant, lost in their own noise.... they just do not matter!


----------



## mashuto (Jul 7, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> Keep in mind that DPreview has NOT had a camera to review. All they have is some pictures of someone holding a camera at an event WHERE YOU WERE NOT ABLE TO PUT A MEMORY CARD INTO THE CAMERA! They also have a lot of comments on their forum from other people who have never touched the camera....
> 
> It is hard to evaluate image quality without an image, and that is where DPR sits..... no data, lots of opinion.
> 
> ...



I really hope I don't sound all doom and gloom here. And I know there is absolutely no way to know for certain how much of an improvement it will be over the 6D. But for me its the one unknown, and even though it might only be marginal differences in IQ, its important to me in determining whether the value of the camera is worth the price, and since I preordered, I am especially interested.

I dont think anyone said it would be 1.5 stops lower than the 5D4. I mentioned 1.5 stops since according to dxomark, the 5D4 has 1.5 stops of DR improvement over the original 6D. According to the one quote from the DPReview article that came from a canon rep, the 6D2 wouldnt have the same DR capabilities of the 5D4. So my interpretation is that the 6D2 will have less than 1.5 stops of improvement over the 6D. How much, I dont know. If the difference in DR between the 6D2 and the 5D4 is not noticeable outside a lab test, that would be good for me. My hope is that it is noticeable when stacked up against the original 6D.

Where did canon say it would be slightly better than the 5d4?

Anyways, I know its all speculation and there is no way to know until real world reviews start coming out. I also wasnt taking anything from that article as gospel, its just without much else to go on and the fact that they spoke to a canon rep... well, you know. My reason for discussing this is just because I already preordered, and its the one unknown sticking spot that might make me hesitate.

And really, not even remotely trying to imply that image quality on this camera will suck. Only speculating on how much of an improvement over the original 6D I can expect or hope for.


----------



## amorse (Jul 7, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not expecting the 6D II to shake the ground, and to be fair it doesn't need to. The 6D is an incredibly capable camera for my needs. But for those few situations where I'm deciding whether or not I can get away with a 3 stop ND grad for the sky or if I need to add another 2 stop ND grad, buying a new body is worth the money to me if I can reduce the glass/resin between my lens and my subject.
> ...



I didn't think that was expecting one stop improvement is impossible based on comparing DR improvements between between the 5D III and the 5D IV. Comparing the 5D III and the 5D IV, nearly every review I can find is indicating improvements in DR of nearly 2 stops. Recognizing some outlets have their own biases, are there are reasonable comparisons that show improvements from mark III to mark IV was less than one stop? I'm not trying to call you out here, I'm honestly trying to inform my decision. If the improvement is less than one stop, then it isn't worth me upgrading.

If the ADC changes gave the 5D IV such an improvement, I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect a similar change for the 6D II, but if the improvements between the 5D III and 5D IV were severely overstated, then I do need to reconsider buying.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> Hornet said:
> 
> 
> > I think Canon should be concerned that more people say they are leaving Canon than are ordering the camera.
> ...



+1


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 7, 2017)

mashuto said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Keep in mind that DPreview has NOT had a camera to review. All they have is some pictures of someone holding a camera at an event WHERE YOU WERE NOT ABLE TO PUT A MEMORY CARD INTO THE CAMERA! They also have a lot of comments on their forum from other people who have never touched the camera....
> ...


One rep says worse.... one rep says slightly better.... one says 5D4 was 1.5 stops better than the 5D3 and that the 6D2 will not be 1.5 stops better than the 6D, but the 6D was already better than the 5D3, so it is possible that the improvement of the 6D2 over the 6D could be less than 1.5 stops and still have a higher DR than the 5D4....

The thing is, both are going to use the same technology and are very close together in time.... I doubt that any of us will be able to detect the difference, but until independent tests are done, it is all speculation....


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

amorse said:


> I didn't think that was expecting one stop improvement is impossible based on comparing DR improvements between between the 5D III and the 5D IV. Comparing the 5D III and the 5D IV, nearly every review I can find is indicating improvements in DR of nearly 2 stops. Recognizing some outlets have their own biases, are there are reasonable comparisons that show improvements from mark III to mark IV was less than one stop? I'm not trying to call you out here, I'm honestly trying to inform my decision. If the improvement is less than one stop, then it isn't worth me upgrading.
> 
> If the ADC changes gave the 5D IV such an improvement, I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect a similar change for the 6D II, but if the improvements between the 5D III and 5D IV were severely overstated, then I do need to reconsider buying.



A few thoughts on all of this:

1) See DR plot of all Canon FF rigs over time from DXO. DR is not a place you get mega-bumps in performance with the next gen. Moving to on-chip has been a decent bump, yes, but I'd still keep your feet on the ground. We will still be compositing/blending or using ND grads for a very long time.

2) Base ISO DR is lovely, but some of us brave the world without a tripod sometimes.  When you walk to the right w.r.t. ISO on a DR chart, these cameras are even closer than this forum might imply. Again: Canon is squeezing out small, incremental improvements, and that should be the expectation here.

I am not trying to talk someone out of their priorities, but I am arguing that purchasing for DR reasons seems is a very expensive give-to-get relationship. 

- A


----------



## mashuto (Jul 7, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> One rep says worse.... one rep says slightly better.... one says 5D4 was 1.5 stops better than the 5D3 and that the 6D2 will not be 1.5 stops better than the 6D, but the 6D was already better than the 5D3, so it is possible that the improvement of the 6D2 over the 6D could be less than 1.5 stops and still have a higher DR than the 5D4....
> 
> The thing is, both are going to use the same technology and are very close together in time.... I doubt that any of us will be able to detect the difference, but until independent tests are done, it is all speculation....



And I know that what you are saying is probably the reality. And I would be pretty happy if that was the case. That to me would probably be worth it.

But I have $2000 on the line right now and nothing concrete to go on regarding that. And maybe preordering wasnt the best idea. But... again, I have my reasons. Hence the speculation. Plus its hard sometimes to stay completely out of the crazy hype (or anti-hype) trains that go around, and that seem to be especially rampant with the announcement of this camera.



ahsanford said:


> A few thoughts on all of this:
> 
> 1) See DR plot of all Canon FF rigs over time from DXO. DR is not a place you get mega-bumps in performance with the next gen. Moving to on-chip has been a decent bump, yes, but I'd still keep your feet on the ground. We will still be compositing/blending or using ND grads for a very long time.
> 
> ...



I know I am not who you were replying to, but a lot of that applies to me to. And I know the changes are going to be marginal. I just want them to be noticeable. I am also not expecting to have to suddenly stop bracketing. But any improvement there where I can squeeze more out of individual images will be very welcome to me.

Im also probably psyching myself up about this a bit since there is just no way to know right now anyways. But, I preordered and just am hoping I will get most if not everything I want right now, and this is just one spot that we still dont know. And for me the preorder isnt just about DR. I preordered because of everything else it offers, but with the hope and expectation that there would be a noticeable difference in IQ and DR even if it is just marginal. That to me makes it a complete package worth the preorder price. The DR and IQ stuff is just sort of like the last little bump in the value equation to me.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 7, 2017)

mashuto said:


> I preordered because of everything else it offers,



I appreciate the reply and didn't want to talk you out of anything.

The passage above is vital -- it shows your head is screwed-on correctly.  

I think you'll be delighted with your 6D2.

- A


----------



## sebasan (Jul 7, 2017)

I watch a lot of pictures (many of them landscapes) in websites like 500px, 1x, juzaphotos, etc, and many of the best landscapes photos (where DR seems to be more important) are taken with Nikon cameras (fifty fifty with Canon maybe) and when you read the description, the most of those pictures are blending from two or three frames of bracketing exposures. Draw your own conclusion.


----------



## amorse (Jul 7, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't think that was expecting one stop improvement is impossible based on comparing DR improvements between between the 5D III and the 5D IV. Comparing the 5D III and the 5D IV, nearly every review I can find is indicating improvements in DR of nearly 2 stops. Recognizing some outlets have their own biases, are there are reasonable comparisons that show improvements from mark III to mark IV was less than one stop? I'm not trying to call you out here, I'm honestly trying to inform my decision. If the improvement is less than one stop, then it isn't worth me upgrading.
> ...



Absolutely fair points, no doubt my needs are not everyones needs. I agree - and would go a step further on the low light point. The current generation 6D's low light dynamic range bests even the Nikon D810 at ISOs 1000 and above according to DXOmark (I know how much we love that resource here). I have always been shocked by the low light performance of the 6D, and I use it a lot for starscapes. I haven't had any issues with clipping in starscapes, however. It's base ISO DR during sunrise or sunset that I'm having challenges with, and while I don't expect to give up my ND grads any time soon, I can justify the purchase if I get the extra latitude.


----------



## Sporgon (Jul 7, 2017)

mashuto said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > As the only other person asking questions about DR in this thread, I agree with this. No doubt splitting hairs, but when I expect this to be my main body for the next 4 years I want to be sure I pick what's right for me - neither the 5D IV nor the 6D II is cheap. I don't think either of us are bitching, both have said we'd take which ever camera has better DR - the 5D IV or the 6D II. I just want to see some real world reviews before I decide what I buy. God forbid I make a purchase decision based on evidence and my own needs. For all any of us know the 6D II images will be indiscernible from the 5D IV images, or DPReview is full of it and the 6D II's DR is better than the 5D IV - I'd just like to have that question answered before I choose one.
> ...



Privatebydesign put this very well on another thread: if with your current camera you are running into issues of unsatisfactory noise and tone in your shadows then you will see a significant improvement in the 6DII. It won't make much difference to highlights per se, other than if you under expose more to preserve them, but if you do suffer from poor IQ in raised shadows it rather suggests that you are under exposing anyway, or to be more precise not ETTR as much as you could. With the 2012 ACR process on a 5DII I can raise the shadow slider nearly 100% without any shadow IQ issues, but no way can I lift mid tones (exposure) as well. On the 2012 process I didn't find much of an improvement with the 6D, which was a bit of a bummer as I bought the 6D before I changed to the latest process. 

Given the way I shoot, and I think that after 12 years of using the 5D and 8 years of the 5DII I am able to optimise the exposure for these cameras, I know that I would be able to see the difference in the overall IQ that a 6DII or 5DIV would offer in difficult lighting conditions, but I'm not sure anyone else would see the difference in my images !


----------



## LonelyBoy (Jul 7, 2017)

amorse said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > The only people who have suggested a small question mark on the 6D MkII DR are the original DRones, DPReview.
> ...



Honestly I think people are making WAY too much of a random comment from a Canon PR rep. It would be shocking to me if a rep said "oh yeah, this is going to be way better than the still-very-recent 5D4". They'll have some way to justify it - like four fewer mpx. That's enough to say "not quite up to par", even if it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. It seems very unlikely they'll go back to an off-chip ADC in a camera like this, but everyone is twisted into knots because of a Canon PR rep and then DPR. 

It's absurd. The SL2 might (_might_) still have an old-style sensor. The 6D2 won't, or I'll eat a whole lot of crow. Everyone should relax.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 7, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> mashuto said:
> 
> 
> > I preordered because of everything else it offers,
> ...



+1


----------



## x-vision (Jul 8, 2017)

6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately: 
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1497323/25#14098826


----------



## Aglet (Jul 8, 2017)

x-vision said:


> 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1497323/25#14098826



Oh my.... (count me "not terribly surprised" if this is the case as Canon is all about the $)

I hope those who were counting on the DR improvements will get further confirmation testing in time to cancel (or keep) their pre-orders.

Luvin my ABCs for the last 5 yrs now... no stripey raw files to work around.

I think I'll be giggling for my entire 30k bike ride now... Sorry y'all.


----------



## mashuto (Jul 8, 2017)

x-vision said:


> 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1497323/25#14098826



Yea, been following that one. Super super disappointing if true. Might wait to see if we can get some further confirmation first, but definitely leaning hard towards cancelling my preorder. The features it has are still very nice for me, but I just dont think they are worth the full initial retail price for me if there is no image quality improvement (at least in terms of what I am most interested in).

On the one hand, its not such a bad thing, my 6D is still a really fantastic camera for my needs, but if I want to stick with Canon and continue with full frame, my options are either spend quite a bit more for the 5D4, which is missing one feature I really would want (the screen) and has a ton of extra features I just do not care about or skip this generation entirely and wait maybe 4 or 5 years to see what they do next. Or wait until the 6D2 drops in price to something more in line with what I think the value would be for me assuming no increase in IQ.

Oh well, I should probably just go out and shoot more and not worry about it and just enjoy taking pictures with the gear I already have that I know works quite well. Maybe Ill put the money towards the 11-24...

Such a rollercoaster of emotions!


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 8, 2017)

x-vision said:


> 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1497323/25#14098826



But nobody knows where those files are coming from.... certainly not an officially released production camera.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 8, 2017)

x-vision said:


> 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1497323/25#14098826



So we are to believe a rumor on a website that says that the DR has not improved because the DXO metric says so?

I call BULL on this...... The camera is not released yet, DXO does not have images from it, and their "scaled metric" is at best problematic, and at worst an outright lie.

As said before on multiple occasions, wait for an independent review from a reputable source.....


----------



## mashuto (Jul 8, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> ...



So if the dxo metric is a bad way to measure then... there is even an objective way to measure it? And from what I read, he got the camera from Canon New Zealand and I dont think they are rumors, they were working from actual RAW files. Whether its a pre production model or not, who knows, but I cant imagine the difference from a pre-production model to the final model would or could be that great.

Anyways, you are absolutely right, wait for an independent review from a realiable source. Of course, my decision right now is related to whether I keep my preorder. And the evidence we have so far is pointing towards this potentially not being much if any of an improvement in IQ (at least in DR) over the original.

I was not trying to discount it entirely, but again, since I jumped the gun to preorder, I may not have the luxury of waiting for reliable reviews or objective DR measurements if they even exist.

Then again, I can sell my 6D (which I wasnt planning to do) and a lens I no longer use and cover most of the cost anyways. Sorry, thinking out loud.


----------



## BillB (Jul 8, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> ...



Canon recently had at least one event where photographic media types were given preproduction 6DII's to play with, and some reports are out there on the web, with some jpgs (no Raw's). My guess is that DPR got some jpgs from one of these events, either first hand or second hand, and that is what they ran with. About par for their course. Get something out fast that is controversial enough to boost site traffic and get a fire storm going on the forums. Endless hours of Internet fun. Who knows what the "Canon rep" actually said.


----------



## Jopa (Jul 8, 2017)

I highly doubt Canon would modify the sensor production line to put ADC back out of the sensor. Looks like a BS test to me.


----------



## Luds34 (Jul 8, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> One rep says worse.... one rep says slightly better.... one says 5D4 was 1.5 stops better than the 5D3 and that the 6D2 will not be 1.5 stops better than the 6D, but the 6D was already better than the 5D3, so it is possible that the improvement of the 6D2 over the 6D could be less than 1.5 stops and still have a higher DR than the 5D4....
> 
> The thing is, both are going to use the same technology and are very close together in time.... I doubt that any of us will be able to detect the difference, but until independent tests are done, it is all speculation....



You've expressed my sentiments quite well. Sure time will show, but at the end of the day, with fairly high certainty (or apply a bell shaped curve) we have a pretty good idea where this sensor will fall. And without tests, benchmarks, etc. you are absolutely correct one will not be able to tell the difference with a 5D4.


----------



## Luds34 (Jul 8, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> I am not trying to talk someone out of their priorities, but I am arguing that purchasing for DR reasons seems is a very expensive give-to-get relationship.
> 
> - A



Great point.

Yes, while their are exceptions, a majority of us don't get to shoot at base ISO for every shot. So all this talk of DR (which is really implying at base ISO) very quickly becomes irrelevant for many real world shooting conditions.


----------



## Orangutan (Jul 8, 2017)

Aglet said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> ...


But will you post any photos?


----------



## Luds34 (Jul 8, 2017)

mashuto said:


> Im also probably psyching myself up about this a bit since there is just no way to know right now anyways. But, I preordered and just am hoping I will get most if not everything I want right now, and this is just one spot that we still dont know. And for me the preorder isnt just about DR. I preordered because of everything else it offers, but with the hope and expectation that there would be a noticeable difference in IQ and DR even if it is just marginal. That to me makes it a complete package worth the preorder price. The DR and IQ stuff is just sort of like the last little bump in the value equation to me.



Get pysched a bit. Good for you, it's a new toy. A friend once told me (and I think this is just an excuse to combat GAS) if a new camera or lens gets you excited and out and shooting more (even if there is not a technical justification for the purchase) than it's money well spent!

I'm in the same boat. Sold my 6D, I've pre-ordered the 6D2. For me this ticks a few missing boxes (namely AI servo tracking outside of center of frame) from the original 6D. With all that said... any upgrade I've ever done (whether cameras, computers, cars, etc) that is just one generation removed is going to ultimately be underwhelming in "real world use cases". No one looks at a print on a wall and says "Ahhh you definitely shot that with a 5D mark IV", right?

Best of luck! I'm fairly sure it will be a very solid camera and I look forward to some great shots over the next number of years.


----------



## Jopa (Jul 8, 2017)

Luds34 said:


> Best of luck! I'm fairly sure it will be a very solid camera and I look forward to some great shots over the next number of years.



Wrong. Canon is *******, all Canon shooters are *******, time to jump ship everybody! I just put all my Canon stuff on eBay for $19.95 /s


----------



## CanonCams (Jul 8, 2017)

x-vision said:


> 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1497323/25#14098826



Those posters are gonna have some ugly egg on their face.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 8, 2017)

x-vision said:


> 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1497323/25#14098826


This is BULL****!

They say that the black point is 512 and the white point is 16383...... that is 5 stops of DR!

Wait for a reputable review, not a DXO based rumor.....


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 8, 2017)

what is your eBay ID there? Do you accept offers? 




Jopa said:


> Luds34 said:
> 
> 
> > Best of luck! I'm fairly sure it will be a very solid camera and I look forward to some great shots over the next number of years.
> ...


----------



## Aglet (Jul 8, 2017)

mashuto said:


> Such a rollercoaster of emotions!




THIS is why I went ABC.
I stopped waiting, wishing, pre-ordering, hoping for improvements... it was like a bad relationship!
I divorced Canon, acquired a poly-camerous lifestyle of far greater satisfaction.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 8, 2017)

sounds boring. meh 



Aglet said:


> mashuto said:
> 
> 
> > Such a rollercoaster of emotions!
> ...


----------



## LesC (Jul 8, 2017)

I voted 'Maybe, but I’ll wait for real world reviews' but perhaps there should have been another category; 'I'll definately get it, but like to wait for real world reviews just to make sure there's no teething problems'

That wolud more accurately reflect my thinking


----------



## LonelyBoy (Jul 8, 2017)

Luds34 said:


> Get pysched a bit. Good for you, it's a new toy. A friend once told me (and I think this is just an excuse to combat GAS) if a new camera or lens gets you excited and out and shooting more (even if there is not a technical justification for the purchase) than it's money well spent!



Exactly. For my skill level and purposes, do I really need a 5D3 and 2.8 zooms? No, probably not. Are they a lot more fun to use and get me shooting more? YES! So who cares?


----------



## mashuto (Jul 8, 2017)

Jopa said:


> Luds34 said:
> 
> 
> > Best of luck! I'm fairly sure it will be a very solid camera and I look forward to some great shots over the next number of years.
> ...



While I appreciate this and think its pretty funny. That was a response to me being concerned about these results. And being concerned is not the same as thinking this camera is a disaster or a failure.

My concern is that I went into this with an expectation based on past releases that I maybe shouldn't have. That the sensor would have significant IQ improvements in the areas I was hoping for. And its starting to look like it might not. The only two pieces of evidence so far are a RAW file that probably came from a preproduction camera (though could production actually be that huge of a difference?) and a statement from a Canon rep (though someone seems to think there was an opposite statement from another... but I dont know the source of that).

DR is an important item to me that I was hoping for in an upgrade. And its starting to look like my choices for a DR upgrade are to spend significantly more on a camera, 5D4, that has so many things I dont want or care about and is even missing one or two things I want (articulating screen). Or look elsewhere. But I like Canon and have no real desire to switch.

So, I have no doubt in my mind that the 6DII will be a fantastic camera, just like the 6D is. But with these doubts about DR (with some evidence) I am just wondering if I was too hasty with my preorder and whether the camera is really worth a spending $2000 as an upgrade over the 6D. I was originally planning to keep my 6D as a backup, but I could sell it and offset the cost... I dunno. I am exciting about the new features and would certainly benefit from having them. But without an increase in IQ, specifically DR, I question whether its worth the full upgrade price for me.

Everyone says wait and see, which I agree with since its hard to know whats factual and whats rumor, or what is down to preproduction models or what. But I just dont have that luxury with a preorder. So, it just seems more and more like cancelling the preorder and waiting until we have more actual solid evidence one way or another.


----------



## CanonCams (Jul 8, 2017)

mashuto said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > Luds34 said:
> ...



There has been 0 well founded evidence on this.


----------



## mashuto (Jul 8, 2017)

CanonCams said:


> There has been 0 well founded evidence on this.



Sure, but the point of my post is still more about my preorder. Because there is doubt, whether some choose to believe the things they have read or not.

If I keep my preorder, in my mind I am rolling the dice a bit on DR and IQ.

If I cancel, and IQ and DR are improved, all I have lost is maybe a month or two while stock replenishes. And if it turns out that IQ and DR arent improved, well I can make a better decision then when I have all the facts, for real.

So, thats why I am talking through this, it isnt about trying to say this camera will be bad. In fact I think it will be a really nice camera. Just not sure if its worth the asking price for me, right now with some of these doubts.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jul 8, 2017)

mashuto said:


> CanonCams said:
> 
> 
> > There has been 0 well founded evidence on this.
> ...



How about you don't preorder then? How about just be patient and continue to shoot with your current gear until the real cameras are released and the right RAW algorithms are used? This stuff is a big load of bull so quit worrying about it.


----------



## mashuto (Jul 8, 2017)

bdunbar79 said:


> How about you don't preorder then? How about just be patient and continue to shoot with your current gear until the real cameras are released and the right RAW algorithms are used? This stuff is a big load of bull so quit worrying about it.



Yea that probably would have been the smart thing to do. It is unfortunately not what I actually did. Anyways, I have said what I needed to say. I know things are not finalized, doesnt change my doubts, and cancelling the preorder is probably best thing to do since at worst, it just means I might have to be slightly patient and continue using my current camera (not a negative).


----------



## amorse (Jul 8, 2017)

x-vision said:


> 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1497323/25#14098826



Disappointing if true. That's obviously a big IF. No way to be sure until we see a few reviews from a few sources.

I can't see why Canon would choose not to improve base DR unless:

They honestly didn't think it needed the boost - seems unlikely considering they thought the 5D IV needed a boost 
It was a casualty of getting really strong low light performance
Or the long shot - they started development of the 5D IV before the choice to use on-chip ADC and developed this sensor for it, then switched to ADC and decided to build a new sensor for the 5D IV, then didn't want to waste the R/D for this sensor
Or they didn't make that choice and did in fact improve DR

Yes, I have an active imagination. Speculation aside, none of us know what it can or can't do until we see it. I'll be waiting patiently until August.


----------



## candyman (Jul 8, 2017)

amorse said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> ...




Is that a CR2 production file or a CR2 PRE-production file?
Could not find in all the comments over there.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 8, 2017)

candyman said:


> Is that a CR2 production file or a CR2 PRE-production file?
> Could not find in all the comments over there.



Doesn't matter. The DRums of doom are beating. Canon's sales will DRain away and DRy up as customers who've been DRooling over Sony DRop Canon in DRoves. 

;D

Almost certainly a preproduction camera.


----------



## CanonCams (Jul 8, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > Is that a CR2 production file or a CR2 PRE-production file?
> ...



Why is there so much emphasis on preproduction camera?


----------



## amorse (Jul 8, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > Is that a CR2 production file or a CR2 PRE-production file?
> ...


No doubt the camera will sell regardless of what's in there. I still think the 6D was always marketed to entice crop Canon shooters to jump to full frame, and this will definitely still serve that purpose. 

I want DR but I'm not leaving - just because that's the most important improvement I was hoping for in the 6D II doesn't negate the other reasons as to why I chose Canon in the first place. I'm content to keep using my 6D mk I until we see some real reviews.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 8, 2017)

CanonCams said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > candyman said:
> ...



In the absence of valid data, people will take what scraps are available and run with them.


----------



## candyman (Jul 8, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > Is that a CR2 production file or a CR2 PRE-production file?
> ...


I would think so. No signs yet of availability of the final version
I have to admit that I have never been in circumstances where I am able to judge the image quality between a pre-production model and the final production model. However I like to believe that the final version is tweaked based upon input of those early adopters / testers.
I hope for that. But regardless of that, for ME it is still a good upgrade.


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## Khalai (Jul 8, 2017)

Aglet said:


> mashuto said:
> 
> 
> > Such a rollercoaster of emotions!
> ...



Funny. I never needed to wait, pre-order or had a bad relationship with Canon. And I've tried Sony and Fuji as well. While not bad systems at all (I really like Fuji haptic controls), they just lacked something I didn't miss in Canon system.

So I have a proposition to you, since you sound quite insecure with your desicion. Be happy with what you have, let others be happy with what they have and everyone should keep busy with taking amazing images instead of measurebating over and over some minuscule difference in paper specs, okay?


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 8, 2017)

Khalai said:


> So I have a proposition to you, since you sound quite insecure with your desicion. Be happy with what you have, let others be happy with what they have and everyone should keep busy with taking amazing images instead of *measurebating over and over some minuscule difference* in paper specs, okay?



I guess you missed shoelace-boy's 'tech blog' filled with amazing images captured with the lens cap on. Measurebation, indeed...


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## Sporgon (Jul 8, 2017)

Khalai said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > mashuto said:
> ...



You shouldn't really point out to an insecure person that they are insecure  Over the years here on CR we have seen many people who have used the forum to try and convince themselves that they have made the right decision in changing. When you have been in photography as long as I have, almost forty years, and got to my age, fifty six, and have changed systems many times, you come to realise that you were often better off with what you had before


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## Khalai (Jul 8, 2017)

Sporgon said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...



Not being youngster anymore myself at age of thirty-two, I've been on the verge of switching systems numerous times. Grass always seemed greener on the other side of the fence - it's because they fertilize it with bulls**t.

I've had several Fujifilm cameras on loan and really like them (but could not get past that X-Trans image output with ease), their haptic controls are not just for looks. I love how Fuji camera are actually incredibly functionally designed. Then there is Sony - love/hate with me. I kinda liked the form factor and certain lenses (Loxia 21 or 85, Sonnar 55/1.8...), but could not get past controls and ergonomics as they appeared counter-intuitive and battery life (rather lack of it) drove me nuts. There was also time with Nikon. Good system, nice lenses, hated the colours.

I've came full circle to Canon (well, technically never left). Yes, I have some gripes with Canon and some things I hate. But I definitely love the image output with L lenses, very intuitive controls and ergonomics. It just suits me best for what I need and I like the output.

Sure, my camera lacks decent AF system, has not the best DR or SNR metrics or has only single card slot. And you know what? I still like it, because it's a tool I can use the easiest way to make images I want.


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## Aglet (Jul 8, 2017)

Khalai said:


> I've came full circle to Canon (well, technically never left). Yes, I have some gripes with Canon and some things I hate. But I definitely love the image output with L lenses, very intuitive controls and ergonomics. It just suits me best for what I need and I like the output.
> 
> Sure, my camera lacks decent AF system, has not the best DR or SNR metrics or has only single card slot. And you know what? I still like it, because it's a tool I can use the easiest way to make images I want.



There you go.
You know its shortcomings and it still does the job for you.
I'm glad you've convinced yourself you're satisfied. 

As I've said before, I liked every aspect of Canon's cameras and systems except for one main thing:
THE IMAGE QUALITY.
While I can agree that image quality, directly out of camera, does look pretty good from Canon gear, that's not always the final chapter with what I (or some others) do.
While the raw files can tolerate some massaging in post, they are more likely to fall apart under heavy manipulation that then requires more time than it's worth to fix or workaround or otherwise compensate for the lower performance of their imaging system.
ABC files hold up much better because of more agreeable noise characteristics.

If something with the IQ of the 5D4/80d/7d2 had been available 5+ years ago, I probably would not have _needed_ to switch. I could work with the files from these models. 
But this is much improved from what was available from Canon 5+ years ago when even a consumer level Nikon provided far cleaner raw files.

for my work:
lenses - irrelevant
color rendition - subjective, irrelevant, and completely adjustable
noise characteristics - critical

That last point was a Canon-fail for my workflow, hence why I switched and why I would suggest to others who have the same requirements to either try one of these new Canon bodies with the better noise character or an ABC camera that has better IQ.

And it pays to be patient enough to see real-reviews of shipping hardware before deciding whether it's good enough. I took a chance on pre-ordering my d800s and, thankfully, wasn't disappointed. Pre-ordered 7d2, OTOH, had other issues and went back to the supplier and was the last Canon I opened my wallet for.


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## Aglet (Jul 8, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > So I have a proposition to you, since you sound quite insecure with your desicion. Be happy with what you have, let others be happy with what they have and everyone should keep busy with taking amazing images instead of *measurebating over and over some minuscule difference* in paper specs, okay?
> ...



You might want to loosen the buckle on your hat there, Neuro-toxic.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 8, 2017)

Aglet said:


> I'm glad you've convinced yourself you're satisfied.



I'm glad you've convinced yourself you're not an arrogant ass. Or maybe you haven't.


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## scyrene (Jul 9, 2017)

transpo1 said:


> Hmm...interesting: 38% wanted 4K. That could be a lot more pre-orders



The results are potentially misleading. I clicked the 4K box because we had to choose one of the options presented. In fact, 4K is of little importance to me, it's just the others are even less so. For instance, with regard to SD slots, I use CF so even two would be a pain, as I'd have to buy at least one new card either way 

I should say more generally, I also wasn't quite 100% on any of the 'will you buy?' options. I might, and reviews aren't that important as I'm sure it'll be a solid camera, but I wouldn't preorder, as I don't think it's necessary to pay RRP for anything these days.


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## scyrene (Jul 9, 2017)

stevelee said:


> I don't think I will miss 4K on a camera that can use zoom lenses.



This is an interesting point that I've not seen before, thanks!


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## scyrene (Jul 9, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone in doubt about DPreview should look at the lens ratings.... They rate Canon's cheapest lens as higher than Canon's most expensive lens.... that's right, the 50F1.8 is BETTER than the 600F4! Something is wrong with a system that gives such results, and seriously wrong with those who defend it!
> ...



Playing devil's advocate for a moment, if you were rating a lens on value *or* the even more nebulous idea of how many situations/people it could be useful in/for, maybe a cheap 50mm would win. But for anyone seriously considering buying the 600L II, its stellar reputation should be well known and understood (or else they've more money than sense).


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## scyrene (Jul 9, 2017)

LonelyBoy said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



YES.


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## scyrene (Jul 9, 2017)

Aglet said:


> As I've said before, I liked every aspect of Canon's cameras and systems except for one main thing:
> THE IMAGE QUALITY.



And yet I don't see rafts of quality images where you can tell which brand was used. Superb images of wildlife, or whatever field you choose, which are *clearly* not-Canon. Why is that? Are most people blind? Or are you convicing yourself of a reality that doesn't exist?


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## Aglet (Jul 9, 2017)

scyrene said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > As I've said before, I liked every aspect of Canon's cameras and systems except for one main thing:
> ...



if you go back and read the 2nd sentence below the one you quoted....


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## CanonCams (Jul 9, 2017)

Now its being posted that the MK IIs noise and DR are worse than the 6D or MK IV.


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## arbitrage (Jul 9, 2017)

CanonCams said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > candyman said:
> ...



The camera in question came in full retail box with a Demo sticker on it. Anyone who really thinks they put a prototype sensor into a production box is just delusional and needs to face the facts.

I'm surprised as anyone that it didn't have the expected DR improvement we have been used to but for whatever reason it looks like this is legit. More RAWs have been analyzed now over at FM....same results....(yes they are all still from the same camera)


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## CanonCams (Jul 9, 2017)

arbitrage said:


> CanonCams said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



And the noise is worse than the 6D.

Sounds like they dropped the ball, if true.


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## Isaacheus (Jul 9, 2017)

CanonCams said:


> arbitrage said:
> 
> 
> > CanonCams said:
> ...



Worse, sounds like they ran away from the ball altogether. Looks like another set of raws have been tested on the FM thread, this time from China, same results. Not looking good at this stage


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## Aglet (Jul 9, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > I'm glad you've convinced yourself you're satisfied.
> ...



Thoroughly convinced. ;D


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## Aglet (Jul 9, 2017)

*Much ado 'bout nuthin here re 6d2 DR-SNR speculation.*

*Save the harangue for when the shipping models exhibit poor performance. Then it will be well deserved.*

A "demo" camera may have a production sensor but may not have final versions of power supplies, shielding, etc.
There could be a variety of system optimizations or improvements between the demo and the production model which could have an impact on equivalent read noise or other IQ factors.

This can sometimes be seen in examples of the same model produced over time.
e.g. Early model 40D cameras had a bit of a reputation for noise issues. My late production model is the only Canon SLR I've kept because it's actually got decent IQ for that era.
My early production 5d2 was a noisy beast. later ones may have been improved.
You will rarely see these minor internal changes advertised by Canon or any mfr during the production life of a product unless it's something serious.


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## unfocused (Jul 9, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > 6DII dynamic range (DR) not improved, unfortunately:
> ...



Absolutely. This is just a forum posting on another forum from some random person that doesn't know anything more than anyone here (which is like ZERO).

All this scouring for problems before the camera is even out in the wild is just silly.


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## arbitrage (Jul 9, 2017)

unfocused said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > x-vision said:
> ...



RAWs from a second camera have now been analysed....same results. You do realize getting DR measurements, especially from a Canon RAW with a masked area is a simple process. 

Believe what you want but more and more samples will leak out and eventually you won't be able to live in denial anymore.


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## Don Haines (Jul 9, 2017)

arbitrage said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


From a pre-production demo model....... and we know that it is the final version of camera firmware and the proper RAW decoder how?

I am not in denial, I don't believe anything (good or bad) until it is independently verified by a reputable source from a retail unit....

And if the sensor was so markedly inferior to the one in the 5D4, how do we explain the fact that the unexpanded ISO range of the 5D4 goes up to 32,000 and the 6D2 goes to 40,000?


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## x-vision (Jul 9, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> I am not in denial, I don't believe anything (good or bad) until it is independently verified by a reputable source from a retail unit....



When the 6DII was announced, I remember reading the following on DPreview and wondering what it really meant: 


According to Canon representatives, the 6D Mark II should outperform the original 6D (which it very evidently does) but may not offer the same kind of dynamic range and absolute resolution of the EOS 5D Mark IV.


Unfortunately, rather than disproving the above statement, the tests at FredMiranda actually confirm it. 
That doesn't bode well for 6DII's dynamic range.


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## CanonCams (Jul 9, 2017)

x-vision said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I am not in denial, I don't believe anything (good or bad) until it is independently verified by a reputable source from a retail unit....
> ...



It also didn't beat the 6D in DR or noise. So the whole thing is weird.


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## ahsanford (Jul 9, 2017)

arbitrage said:


> RAWs from a second camera have now been analysed....same results. You do realize getting DR measurements, especially from a Canon RAW with a masked area is a simple process.
> 
> Believe what you want but more and more samples will leak out and eventually you won't be able to live in denial anymore.



The Russians think they know how to conduct a kompromat campaign, but the denizens of the DPR forums are giving an absolute masterclass in it right now. :

A rather dubious snowball gathers momentum: 
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=33003.0;topicseen

- A


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## SecureGSM (Jul 9, 2017)

[joke] I just hope that following this negative DR "noise" on FR and DPR the price of 6D II will drop like a led baloon and come Christmas time I will afford purchasing a pair of 6D II's at $1,000 each  [/joke]


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## Khalai (Jul 9, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> [joke] I just hope that following this negative DR "noise" on FR and DPR the price of 6D II will drop like a led baloon and come Christmas time I will afford purchasing a pair of 6D II's at $1,000 each  [/joke]



In that case, we should spread this allegation everywhere we can, right?


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## mashuto (Jul 9, 2017)

Well I cancelled my preorder. I am not taking these measurements as gospel, but given that they are the only evidence out there right now, I figure I can wait until some other verified reviews and tests come out. If it turns out these early measurements were right, then I can make a more informed decision at that point. If it turns out they were wrong the only thing I lose is not being able to get one in the first batch.


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## Khalai (Jul 9, 2017)

mashuto said:


> Well I cancelled my preorder. I am not taking these measurements as gospel, but given that they are the only evidence out there right now, I figure I can wait until some other verified reviews and tests come out. If it turns out these early measurements were right, then I can make a more informed decision at that point. If it turns out they were wrong the only thing I lose is not being able to get one in the first batch.



Smart move IMHO. Preorders are always a bit risky. You pay full price for the privilege of having it first. If you're not in a hurry, what's few more weeks waiting for reviews, right?.


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## LonelyBoy (Jul 9, 2017)

Khalai said:


> mashuto said:
> 
> 
> > Well I cancelled my preorder. I am not taking these measurements as gospel, but given that they are the only evidence out there right now, I figure I can wait until some other verified reviews and tests come out. If it turns out these early measurements were right, then I can make a more informed decision at that point. If it turns out they were wrong the only thing I lose is not being able to get one in the first batch.
> ...



Especially for something like this. Canons aren't usually out of stock, right? Even very early in the cycle. You can pre-order well ahead of time, but the NDA will probably end the day they're available, so you can read all the reviews on launch day and order then if you like it. Shipping will generally get it to you within a couple of days. So you lose, literally, a week with the new toy in exchange for having a lot more information to decide with. Seems like a no-brainer to me.


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## mashuto (Jul 9, 2017)

LonelyBoy said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > mashuto said:
> ...



I have a feeling there might be a few weeks or a month lag between when the first batch goes out and supply is restocked. But if thats all, its not a big deal. Its not like I NEED a camera now. I still have my 6D, it still works, its still excellent. And theres a decent chance I wont even be able get out to shoot during that period of time anyways... stupid real life.

So, my fingers are crossed that reviews will come in and somehow prove these early findings completely wrong, and Ill just buy it then. And if not, well Ill either just keep my 6D a while longer or explore other options, whatever those options may be.


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## ahsanford (Jul 9, 2017)

And the Questionably Responsible Journalism award goes to CW, who does not seem to understand that fake news needs third parties to fan the flames:

https://goo.gl/fpjPR1

- A


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## amorse (Jul 9, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> I keep seeing DR come up on this thread. Just curious why there is any doubt on the DR side of things. See below -- these are the three sensors to come out with the on-chip ADC sensors.
> 
> See a trend on the DR figures. Why would anyone suspect that number would mysteriously plummet with the 6D2?
> 
> - A


Aren't you happy you asked about DR?


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## scyrene (Jul 10, 2017)

Aglet said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...



Easier to PP non-Canon files, you mean? It may be a fair point - I've not processed any non-Canon raw images, so I can't comment. I will say, however, that I rarely hit insurmountable problems in processing Canon files. But I actually enjoy post processing, I understand some do not and would want to minimise the time spent doing it.


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## Sporgon (Jul 10, 2017)

scyrene said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



You wouldn't want files from the Sony then. It took me much more work to get the subtle punch in my images from that camera. But malleability of the shadows - yes, different league, but I don't need or want it particularly.


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## Aglet (Jul 11, 2017)

Sporgon said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...



I'm in the "don't want to PP more than I have to" camp. ABC files allow me to do quick global edits for the result I want. 
I appreciate the art of talented PP work like those who are also good golfers.... 
But I don't want to spend my time doing either! 

I know what you mean about that "subtle punch" part... local contrast?.. can look a bit weaker at times when so much dynamic range gets compressed. 
I can get back enough of that quite easily with a simple and slight local contrast enhancement that takes a few seconds.

FWIW, sometimes I now shoot Fuji because I can get OOC jpg looking just how I want with no PP required...
If a minor exposure tweak is required... can do that in camera and have it re-process the raw file to another jpg. Rarely needed with excellent WYSIWYG EVF tho...


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