# Sony A7SII announced !



## pedro (Sep 11, 2015)

Well,...

https://presscentre.sony.eu/pressreleases/sony-expands-range-of-compact-full-frame-mirrorless-cameras-with-the-launch-of-the-ultra-sensitive-a7s-ii-1216386/

http://www.canonwatch.com/off-brand-sony-alpha-a7sii-announced-out-of-darkness-cometh-light/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=off-brand-sony-alpha-a7sii-announced-out-of-darkness-cometh-light

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7sii-announced/

For what it's worth, if they do not address this issue, I am better off with a Canon for astro... 8)

_A Raw file is a Raw file, right? Well, not exactly. Lately, there's been a lot of talk (and a lot of anger) about the compression Sony uses in its Raw files. Compressed Raw files aren't uncommon, but they're usually compressed in a way that retains all the original 'raw' data from the sensor._

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2834066212/the-raw-and-the-cooked-pulling-apart-sony-raw-compression?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=features-default&utm_medium=homepage-block&ref=features-default


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## drjlo (Sep 11, 2015)

So..the same 12.2 MP sensor from A7s?
Personally, I was hoping for a little more resolution (say 16-20 MP) but with back side illumination like A7r II.


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 11, 2015)

Pedro, you're on the ball!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOOby81vN3w


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## siegsAR (Sep 11, 2015)

^Yeah highly unlikely its the same sensor BUT, where is the much hyped BSI?


4K has no use to me, so I'm not impressed. ;D


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 11, 2015)

dilbert said:


> drjlo said:
> 
> 
> > So..the same 12.2 MP sensor from A7s?
> ...


B&H video interview with Sony Tech guy (which I posted above) confirmed that it is the same sensor.


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## 9VIII (Sep 11, 2015)

Maybe they didn't have the production capacity to make it BSI, and it's also possible that due to the low density they didn't need it (light falloff due to circuitry increases with pixel density).
Of course more surface area is always better, but combining the two, minimal benefit with limited supply, it may have simply made the most sense to stick with the traditional sensor.


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## 9VIII (Sep 11, 2015)

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2834066212/the-raw-and-the-cooked-pulling-apart-sony-raw-compression?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=features-default&utm_medium=homepage-block&ref=features-default

Good grief!

That's almost as bad as the noise patterns of the 5D2, maybe worse since it will still happen even when you do nail the exposure.

Edit: Every once in a while I start thinking that these other camera makers have some pretty nice products, but I just about never read a detailed analysis of the interface and firmware without walking away shaking my head.


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## candc (Sep 11, 2015)

dilbert said:


> So what have they changed? Just the off-sensor processing in BIONZ?
> 
> Are there any side-by-side feature comparisons with the A7S?
> 
> ...



This new one has ibis and better af supposedly


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## Sporgon (Sep 11, 2015)

9VIII said:


> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2834066212/the-raw-and-the-cooked-pulling-apart-sony-raw-compression?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=features-default&utm_medium=homepage-block&ref=features-default
> 
> Good grief!
> 
> ...



I've seen the results of the lossy Sony compression on the a7rII first hand - in shots of a stained glass window in a church. Really ugly crystals around the stone mullions. Of course you have to be looking at 100 or even 200%, so a lot of the time it is going to be academic, but you could say that with a lot of these cameras now you have to look at 100% to see the differences. 

Ironically I get the feeling that the Sony offerings just ain't intended to be scrutinised this closely, despite the 'quality' of their FF sensors, but then I'm not the best person to pass comment because I really don't get this 'Sony is so superior on (APS & FF) sensor tech' stuff.


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## that1guyy (Sep 11, 2015)

Interesting.

This camera has some great features for video shooters. Probably doesn't appeal much to still photographers.

This has full sensor readout for video (no pixel binning) so no aliasing and moire for video in both full frame mode or crop mode, whereas on the A7rII there is a bit of aliasing/moire in the full frame mode. A7rII has no pixel binning in the crop mode but it exists on the FF mode.
Also, 1080p up to 120fps and 100fps whereas the A7rII only does 60p at 1080p.
It also has Slog-3 which is much easier to grade in post compared to the Slog-2 on the A7RII. 

I want to buy either the A7rII or the A7sii soon. Hard decision.


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## siegsAR (Sep 11, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > drjlo said:
> ...



Yeah thanks, I missed that. It's 4am here.  Guess I was just too focused about BSI. For that price they better not copy Canon's "supposed crippling" of features of some sort just to make other bodies stay ahead. Hmmm.

Well I'm good, no mirrorless for me just yet. OTOH, a lot of us might bitch about the new A7sII but I'm pretty sure it will sit _only_ below the A7R2 on DxO's chart. ;D


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## drjlo (Sep 11, 2015)

9VIII said:


> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2834066212/the-raw-and-the-cooked-pulling-apart-sony-raw-compression?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=features-default&utm_medium=homepage-block&ref=features-default



"the impact of this process is lessened in the company's higher pixel-count bodies, since a 32-pixel stripe will be a smaller proportion of the a7R II's 40MP images than it would in a 12MP image from the a7S."

*Shrug* Why Sony doesn't just come up with lossless RAW is beyond me, especially given all this negative publicity. I mean, every other camera manufacturer seem perfectly capable of delivering lossless RAW's ???


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## gsealy (Sep 11, 2015)

It's all good. The more products the better. The prices keep dropping and the features and quality levels keep going up.


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## pedro (Sep 11, 2015)

When I read that report of the compressed RAWs, I shook my head. So not understanding much of tech I just wonder if they remained with this in their new version. Hope not. As I could imagine myself purchasing an a7sII for my extreme lowlight and astro stuff, while later on a new Canon 5Dbody would do the allrounder stuff. But I will wait anyway...So I would love to see something similar from Canon, but an 1DXII is beyond me...


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## Dylan777 (Sep 12, 2015)

dilbert said:


> So what have they changed? Just the off-sensor processing in BIONZ?
> 
> Are there any side-by-side feature comparisons with the A7S?
> 
> ...



It's quite simple Dilbert $$$


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## mkabi (Sep 12, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > So what have they changed? Just the off-sensor processing in BIONZ?
> ...



That... and...

I heard that the yield of the a7rII 42MP sensor production is smaller, they can't keep up with the demand... thats what I heard.

So I'm guessing that this is for those that want 4K internal on FF.
Most people will be happy with IBIS, 4K internal & not to mention 1080p @ 120fps (S___ I wish I waited).
It also has S-Log3, better than the S-Log2 thats on the a7rII

So what if you have the same sensor? 
You know what you are throwing away with the a7sII? Stabilizer & external recorder. 
You want small handheld? This is it.


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## Oneand0 (Sep 12, 2015)

mkabi, you're right! The IBIS is no joke and can't believe what I can do with it, handheld at 1/20 easy. Seeing the difference without it in the videos of the previous A7S and new 7S2 side by side very noticeable. I think you mentioned everything, except the faster auto focus while doing video in newer version. I used to do video with my first gen 7D and got away from it doing landscapes with my 6D. Now I'm getting back into it 4K with A7RII. Sony A7SII is a videographers dream.


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## psolberg (Sep 17, 2015)

I'm not surprised. Sony has a huge RD division and they have been a leader in semiconductors for far longer than I can remember. Canon is simply outspent, out performed and out matched. However canon is competing with sony like it competes with Nikon: simply try to out-muscle them. That will not work with sony, as sony cannot just match them in size and scale, but budget, if not exceed them. Canon needs to go back to its roots: understand its market. Sony is giving people what they want. Canon is simply betting on lens mount lock-in to keep its base around. 

In many ways, canon is exactly where nikon was some years ago: huffing and puffing its market position while doing nothing to become more nimble. In many ways, sony is the new canon: a challenger company that has nothing to lose so it takes risks. 

So kudos to sony, they deserve their wins. Canon, well you know a company that is in a panic when their have to resort to announcing prototypes or "developments" they are working on. You can be both sony and nikon are doing the same things, but they are not silly enough to tip the competition when they have no product to sell.


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## Stu_bert (Sep 17, 2015)

psolberg said:


> I'm not surprised. Sony has a huge RD division and they have been a leader in semiconductors for far longer than I can remember. Canon is simply outspent, out performed and out matched. However canon is competing with sony like it competes with Nikon: simply try to out-muscle them. That will not work with sony, as sony cannot just match them in size and scale, but budget, if not exceed them. Canon needs to go back to its roots: understand its market. Sony is giving people what they want. Canon is simply betting on lens mount lock-in to keep its base around.
> 
> In many ways, canon is exactly where nikon was some years ago: huffing and puffing its market position while doing nothing to become more nimble. In many ways, sony is the new canon: a challenger company that has nothing to lose so it takes risks.
> 
> So kudos to sony, they deserve their wins. Canon, well you know a company that is in a panic when their have to resort to announcing prototypes or "developments" they are working on. You can be both sony and nikon are doing the same things, but they are not silly enough to tip the competition when they have no product to sell.



It's interesting, none of us know the future, and no of us know how much profit any company is making, and whereas we all want to invest in a manufacturer that will be around for years to come, the reality is Nikon, Canon, Sony will I'm sure be around for a long while yet.

I remember everyone (not here) going that Apple will fail, Android will succeed, yet whereas Android phones have the lions share of the market, Apple have the lions share of the profit. We dont know how much profit they (camera manufacturers) are making so saying that one is dominating the other is frankly mute - no one can prove a thing. Revenue or % market share is important, but profit makes the difference.

As for marketing products not released - that's a normal marketing ploy, you want to keep your customers from going elsewhere. At CES every year, we see TVs being shown, but not released, along with a whole lot of other products. 

I agree that Sony has nothing to lose, and everything to gain, and that the competition they bring is good for us. But, as most users of any of the current systems will tell you (so long as they're not trying to generate web traffic to gain income), any of the dSLRs or mirrorless systems are more than a match for what you do. Go read Tom Hogan who writes Nikon books. It's more about learning to use the system to its' potential and actually taking photos then it is about trying to convince others that they've bought into a dead system and as a result they cant take decent photos any more.

For Canon rumors, all these threads are good business. The more we argue, the more hits, the more money. I get that. But it would be good if every time a new camera is released from any manufacturer, people focused more on what it does, and less on why it beats the beejeepers out of the competition and therefore no one can take a good photo or video with the kit they have....


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## Chris Jankowski (Sep 17, 2015)

9VIII said:


> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2834066212/the-raw-and-the-cooked-pulling-apart-sony-raw-compression?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=features-default&utm_medium=homepage-block&ref=features-default
> 
> Good grief!
> 
> That's almost as bad as the noise patterns of the 5D2, maybe worse since it will still happen even when you do nail the exposure.



This issue will be past history soon. Sony has just announced that they will bring un compressed Raw to a7S II and a7R II.

See this:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7665355870/sony-brings-uncompressed-raw-to-a7s-ii-and-a7r-ii

In summary, I think that a7S II is a very significant camera especially for videographers and with uncompressed raw will be also a dream camera for astro guys.

By the way, in addition to other features upgraded from a7S I mentioned in this discussion, the new a7S II brings a new, significantly improved EVF.

Sony seems to have adopted the modern software industry policy of releasing updates to successful models often and also dropping quietly the unsuccessful ones. For example their pocketable RX100 is now on version IV.


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## psolberg (Sep 17, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> psolberg said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not surprised. Sony has a huge RD division and they have been a leader in semiconductors for far longer than I can remember. Canon is simply outspent, out performed and out matched. However canon is competing with sony like it competes with Nikon: simply try to out-muscle them. That will not work with sony, as sony cannot just match them in size and scale, but budget, if not exceed them. Canon needs to go back to its roots: understand its market. Sony is giving people what they want. Canon is simply betting on lens mount lock-in to keep its base around.
> ...




I'm not sure what you mean. Public companies report how much profit they make. They are required to do this. Canon releases quarterly reports like nikon and sony do. They must. Do they fudge things a bit, off course, but we WILL know if Nikon/Canon camera divisions are struggling. It isn't as hidden as you believe even if we don't have access to the internal data.


Also everybody wants to be apple: huge margins, a fanatical base. The reality is that few, if any companies can exist that way or even achieve it. Canon is no apple. not even close. Plenty of companies do retreat because of declines in numbers. In fact that is the norm. So using apple as an example is really misguided because apple is not like anything out there. Even so Apple is also not invincible: double digit declines in ipad sales are not reversing. The iphone lift has to keep going year after year and any hiccups will be felt as that is basically their only business. It's their "windows" back before microsoft diversified into a million profit centers. Canon is more like microsoft: many profit centers. So the camera division isn't necessarily betting the company. The question is how will their division cope with the changes even as the larger entity goes on. Yes, Android will continue to dominate the future of mobile computing by numbers. Apple may still manage to keep people upgrading iphones, and canon may still manage to keep some professionals buying 1Dxs. It is not that they will go away. That is silly. The question is what role. It may very well be, Nikon/Canon become niche players, like the Medium Format players of today, while Sony runs away with the market. or not.


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## Stu_bert (Sep 18, 2015)

psolberg said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > psolberg said:
> ...



I didnt think they broke it down even to product families. If they do, then I stand corrected.

Sony is just the latest kid on the block. You are forecasting doom for Canon, a niche player. The same was said about Apple with all the Android sales, yet Apple makes good profit out of their models. I was not stating they are invincible, nor that Canon is trying to be an Apple. And yes, as the largest tech company, of course everyone wants to be like them. But your doom and gloom for Canon appears to be based solely around Sony releasing products that You think are good.

It's about staying in business. It's about making a profit. For the "upstarts", their only line of attack is pricing and innovation. Does not mean they will be successful, or become niche.

Why has the bottom fallen out of the dSLR market? Because smartphones are good enough for most people's needs. How many people who buy a camera know what a Sony has over an Olympus or a Fuji. And for those that do know, just how many are going to chase the latest tech and jump ship? 

Sony may indeed be aggressively attacking Canon and Nikon. What happens if they don't make a good profit from the cameras? Sure their sensors division are doing well, but is the camera side doing well ? And is it fact or Sony huffing and puffing and showing they are more successful than they are?

The arguments can continue till the cows come home. Frankly it is just an exercise in futility....


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