# How do you think we should spend the money?



## Tabor Warren Photography (Feb 2, 2012)

Here's the deal; my wife and I have just begun turning our photography adventures into a business and now it's time to seriously invest, however, we only have the following equipment:

Canon EF 17-40 f/4
Canon EF 50mm f/1.4
Canon EF 70-300 f/4-5.6
Canon T1i
Canon 430EX ii

Our budget is $4,000 and we're willing to sell/swap any of the equipment as necessary. We shoot a lot of portait work such as maternity, babies, family etc. and are just now going into weddings as requested for some of our engagement bookings. That being said, what do you think? Also we plan on purchasing an additional camera here in the next few months and plan on including the cost of the new camera into the $4K. Any thoughts?

-Tabor


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## noodles (Feb 2, 2012)

For portraits and weddings, the additional camera could be 5D MKII. Since you already have 2 FF lenses (50 and 17-40) I would suggest to get also the 85mm. Could be 85mm f/1.2 if your budget allows otherwise the 85mm f/1.8 is also a very good lens. You also may consider as additional lens the 135 f/2
If you plan to do studiowork, go for umbrella's & additional flash/strobes (with remotetrigger / pocketmax) etc. But, this you can also rent if you do studiowork just now and then.


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## kev8d (Feb 2, 2012)

I'm a wedding videographer (shooting with 5Dmkii and 7D), and I've worked with dozens of wedding photographers over the past few years who shoot with Canon. This is BY FAR the most common set up:

5Dmkii
24-70 f2.8
70-200 f2.8 (often the non-IS model, though I think the IS is well worth saving for - otherwise you may need to bring a monopod!)
Canon 530EXii

Of course this is out of your budget, but at least in western Canada, this set up seems to super popular and quite effective. Of course everyone quickly expands on this by adding a wider lens and a faster lens (and another flash and a true macro lens... But 90% of the time this is the primary kit.)

Based on that, I'd recommend looking for a used 5D or 5Dmkii (lots of used mkii's should be available if Canon ever announces the mkiii). Sell the 70-300 and save for a used 70-200 f2.8 mkI (IS). 

IF the rumors are true and a 24-70 mkii is just around the corner, you might be able to get a used mki for a decent price too.

A used 7D would make a good second body. Maybe pair it with the 17-40 for indoor / closeup stuff, while putting a 24-70 on the full frame camera.

Good luck! Start off slow, it's a steep learning curve. Maybe you could assist / shadow a pro?


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## wickidwombat (Feb 2, 2012)

Well interesting proposition
can you still get your hands on 5D mk2 bodies for close to 2k?

I think your 3 existing lenses are good enough for a start and give you good platform to build from

I say spend your $4k on 2 5Dmk2 bodies. Then put them to work with the glass you have, sell the T1i and buy another strobe 430 or 580 exii if you can. now you have enough solid kit to support 2 shooters I also suggest grabbing a couple of yongnuo external battery packs for the flashes from ebay (under $40 each).

Once this setup starts bring in some coin maybe the 5D3 will be on the shelves and you can get a couple of those to give each shooter a second body and start adding lenses

a slight variation would be

Seriously consider the sigma 85mm f1.4 on a 5Dmk2 I have found that shooting weddings I love this lens it has taken over most of the duty i used the 70-200 for, at f2 it is significantly sharper than the 70-200 f2.8 is at f2.8
just needs some feet zooming. the other massive benefit is its much lighter than the 70-200 so much less of a drag over the course of a 10 hour wedding shoot. so perhaps consider getting rid of the 70-300 and picking up the sigma 85. I could quite comfortably shoot a full wedding with the 16-35 f2.8 on my 1Dmk3 and the 85 f1.4 on the 5D with the 50 f1.4 that i quite often swap onto the 5D2 at the reception because the 85 is a bit long and the 50 on the 5D2. your 17-40 is close enough to the 16-35 just a stop slower however you will be shooting 2 or more people with this lens more often than not so will be chasing f5.6 or f8 anyway so it will be just fine if the sigma makes it too expensive look at the canon 85f1.8 too as an alternate.

In summary both shooters need a good body (5D2 each) and a good piece of glass each plus a capable flash each look at selling the zoom and the T1i pick up a couple of bargain 5Dmk2's (price might drop more once the 5D3 is actually announced, its a bit of a gamble though and if they can start earning you money right now it outweighs any minor saving on the gear cost) then get a sigma 85 f1.4 and another flash, then you are set with one shooter in close and wide with the 17-40 and possibly changing to the 50 f1.4 as needed with the other shooting longer over the top with the 85. then at reception you have two 1.4 lenses for low light duty (you will still need flash here but the fast glass and high iso lets you expose for the background and fill flash or bounce flash even in a dim lit reception getting nice vibrant shots and often good bokeh

down the track once money isnt such an issue you can pick up a 70-200 if you think you need more reach and look at some more glass as well as the extra bodies

oh i forgot to add if you havent already get yourselves a rapid strap each it will save your necks and backs


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## Tabor Warren Photography (Feb 2, 2012)

Wow thank you all for your comments!

It looks as though I should open my wallet and at minimum purchase a new/used 5d II as a second body, knocking off ~$2K after that I'm considering selling my 70-300 and buying either a 70-200 f/2.8 or an 85mm Sigma or Canon. Thank you all again so much for your insight and feedback, this has helped me greatly!

-Tabor


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## briansquibb (Feb 2, 2012)

When I started doing weddings and chrstenings, I had a 5Dc, 24-105, 50 f/1.8 and 2 580EX on stands plus a 40D for backup. Amazing what you can do on a small budget.

If I was starting now I would go for 2 x 5DII, with just 4 lens:

16-35
24-105
70-200 II
85 f/1.8

The 2 flash on stands is a great way to get extra pop in the pictures and ensure you dont go above iso200

The difficulty in a wedding is having to change lens, so primes are not such a good thing. By dividing the wedding into phases you can always have the right 2 lens mounted on the 2 bodies.


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## bycostello (Feb 2, 2012)

my biggest spend each year is on training rather than kit... depending on what jobs u take on though a back up camera is probably essential.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 2, 2012)

Just checked through ebay

you could possibly get $400 for the 70-300
and maybe $400 for the T1i

so you have $4800 budget

and still have the 
17-40
50mm f1.4
430ex

firstly i assume you will both be shooting so you NEED 2 good bodies
I would say with that $4800 you might be able to swing an extra deal from b&h if you ring them up and see what they can do
see if you can get 2 x 5D2 bodies a canon 85mm f1.8 and another 430ex flash

I think its doeable on that budget 

you need both you and your wife to be able to shoot comfortably without feeling they are using the crap camera so avoid problems get 2 the same then just change lens duties have a look on this sit in the lens section at samples of shot people have taken with the 85 f1.8 its a stellar lens for cheap half the price of the sigma

you both NEED flash the long end you need zoom less than the wide end IMO as you are shooting portrait tighter head shots I find the 85 perfect and the wide end zoom gives you some flexability

the other side effect of shooting primes is because you are naturally moving around more you discover different angles that you might miss when depending on zoom

since you are getting into weddings here are a couple of links to start you out with a laugh 

Judge Joe Brown - Cheap wedding photographer
Wedding Photography


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## Mikedurg (Feb 2, 2012)

@ wickidwombat thank you for posting the links for those extremely entertaining videos!!


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## aaronh (Feb 2, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> When I started doing weddings and chrstenings, I had a 5Dc, 24-105, 50 f/1.8 and 2 580EX on stands plus a 40D for backup. Amazing what you can do on a small budget.
> 
> If I was starting now I would go for 2 x 5DII, with just 4 lens:
> 
> ...



Hi, I'm just jumping into this conversation now because I'm getting into wedding photography myself... 

I'm picking up a 5d mark II pretty soon and I'm debating between the 24-105 and the 24-70. I know many people say the 24-70 is better because of the extra stop; however I'd rather get the 24-105 because I think i'd use it more for other photography work (travel, etc.). I'm just wondering, since you used the 24-105, is the f/4 really that much of a hindrance. If you could only have one of the two, you think the 24-105 does the job?

Thanks


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## wickidwombat (Feb 2, 2012)

i use the 24-105 at weddings its a great lens
firstly keep a flash attached, you wont always need it but its there to fill or bounce if needed
secondly when shooting wider ie 24 mm its usually groups and 2.8 is too narrow anyway you want to be in the f5.6 to f8 or f11 range depending on size of group background etc. even couple shots at f4 are pretty safe ie not getting one person oof.
Great value for money lens, great in the studio too, for just starting out when budget is key
a 5D2 the 24-105 a 50mm f1.4 prime and a 580exii and a rapid strapwill have you covered. Ideally having a backup body would be good so on the actual shoot maybe borrowing a friends body would be good and the 50 on a crop is more like 85 on FF which is dynamite for portraits at f2 or even 1.4 if the narrow Dof can work.

Starting out focus on getting all your safe shots first then get creative if you have time.

my 24-105 is an absolute trooper with the stuff its been through and still going strong. tough reliable relatively light good IQ. its a quality package at a respectable price.


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## aaronh (Feb 2, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> i use the 24-105 at weddings its a great lens
> firstly keep a flash attached, you wont always need it but its there to fill or bounce if needed
> secondly when shooting wider ie 24 mm its usually groups and 2.8 is too narrow anyway you want to be in the f5.6 to f8 or f11 range depending on size of group background etc. even couple shots at f4 are pretty safe ie not getting one person oof.
> Great value for money lens, great in the studio too, for just starting out when budget is key
> ...



Thanks a lot for your advice!

I currently have a 60D body and a 35mm 1.4, which is great for lowlight if needed. I also have the 70-200 2.8 IS II. When I get the 5d2 I'll have two bodies and between the tele zoom, the 35 and a 24-105 i figured i'd be covered....

Thanks!


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## wickidwombat (Feb 2, 2012)

aaronh said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > i use the 24-105 at weddings its a great lens
> ...


 cool well that is some quality glass so half the battle is already won, only thing you will run into is sometimes 24mm on FF is not quite wide enough for some creative shots so you will find yourself looking for a wider option
another option you could consider is get a 17-55 f2.8IS for the 60D and use the 70-200 on the 5D then you have 2 bodies have everything covered at f2.8 and have IS the 17-55 is about the same price as the 24-105 just not weather sealed I Really enjoy the 5D2 and 70-200 together


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## Caps18 (Feb 4, 2012)

The 17mm on the 60D is equal to a 27mm on the FF 5Dm2. The 17-40 could go on the 5Dm2 and get some interesting ultra wide angle shots.

If I were you, I would sell the T1i, get 1 5Dm2 and 1 7D (two 5Dm2's is not bad, but the AF and variety will be better with a 7D). Buy the set for it's capabilities, not the price. And don't be afraid to switch cameras between the two of you.

I would also get the 85mm f/1.8. I have it and it is great. If I were doing weddings professionally, the 85mm f/1.2 would have to be on the table as a choice. If the 5D2 was using the primes and the 7D was using the zooms, you might be able to bump up the ISO enough to not need a flash on the 5D while having a quick enough shutter speed. Although, you don't want to be in the position where 50% of the pictures didn't come out because you tried to use f/1.8 and a 1/30 shutter speed.

Get some type of backpack or pelican case to carry this gear in. Get compact flash cards and come up with a system to not lose pictures. Batteries, tripods (I recommend this accessory http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/52783-REG/Stroboframe_300_115_Vertaflip_PHD_On_Tripod_Camera.html ), flash umbreallas,...) Figure out the post processing to get photos processed quickly. And have a list of pictures that you will try and get to tell the story.

Once you have this gear, it is important that you know how to use it and find great photos regardless of the conditions. Be in the right places, use the right settings, and try not to be a distraction.


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## Tabor Warren Photography (Feb 5, 2012)

Wow, thank you everyone for your advice, it has helped me tremendously!

briansquibb,

I really like the versitility suggested by your set up. Also, its quite encouraging to see that I am not the only one starting ona buit of a budget and looking at your set up it looks like I'll get there one day if I work at it hard/long enough.

bycostella,

I would like to have a backup, maybe even hold on to the T1i as a back up to the back up. lol

wickidwombat,

Thank you for checking ebay, that was very kind. Also, you mentioned keeping exactly what I liked about our setup, selling what I could live without, and suggested additional/replacement units for what we already have all while keeping our budget in mind. It would feel awesome to swing a deal with B&H. Lastly, thank you for the videos, those were great!!!

Caps18

Out of everything you mentioned the 5DII and 7D combo intrigued me the most. I like the idea of the 85 f/1.8 on either (depending on the situation of course). Also, I've taken to heart the advise of listing the pictures that will "tell the story" it's great advice and I just started my list ~30 minutes ago because of it.

Thank you all again!!!

-Tabor


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## revup67 (Feb 5, 2012)

A few other key items I'd like to mention are:

#1 Get a WhiBal card for 34.95. It will allow you you to fine tune and get the accurate White Balance setting in the room. Order it from the Michael Tapes web site. What a difference especially without a flash, the custom white balance within the camera will be dead on perfect with this card. http://michaeltapesdesign.com/

#2, if you get a 7D, there's a built in wireless transmitter to use with your (hopeful) 580EX II is a huge plus so another words the 580EXII can be used off camera and hand held by your wife or on a stand. You can configure it with the built in flash to add fill or without the built in flash (solo). You can also set up the Master / Slave combo with an A+B+C flash (for future if you get more than one flash such as a secondary 430 EX or another 580 EXII). The manual settings of the 7D's built in flash and the 580 EXII allow a great deal of combinations. The diffuser on the 580EXII works with UWA lenses up to 15mm as I recall and the white pull down card is great for eye sparkle. It also has a full 180° swivel head. The 580EXII in most cases knows exactly the lens that is on the camera and can auto adjust when using E-TTL


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## briansquibb (Feb 5, 2012)

Whilst the 7D is a good body, I would avoid using it alongside a 5D as it isn't backup at that point - it is just another body.

For example the 24-105 is a great lens for the wedding - wide enough for group pictures and long enough for portraits. However on a 7D it just wont do the groups

In low light and low light focussing (reception) the 7D just is not up to it and has less scope for high iso

So I wouldn't mix ff and crop.

Two bodies of the same model are preferable as the control layouts are different which can lead to missed shots - not good at the wedding 'excuse me can you kiss the bride again' is not the cry you want to hear from a photographer ;D ;D ;D

At a wedding the key issue is getting the content right rather than artistic merit. Getting the ladies without double chins ranks higher than cherry blossom in the background. 

Pictures are unlikely to be seen larger than 16x10 so focussing on extreme IQ is wasted time and money.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 5, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Whilst the 7D is a good body, I would avoid using it alongside a 5D as it isn't backup at that point - it is just another body.
> 
> For example the 24-105 is a great lens for the wedding - wide enough for group pictures and long enough for portraits. However on a 7D it just wont do the groups
> 
> ...



Also at risk of getting clubbed like a baby seal...
I would also suggest the IQ of the 7D isn't up to pro wedding level and there is a high chance guests could have 7D's (you will get guests coming up and trying to tell you about their gear, its a little annoying when you are trying to do the job the couple are paying you for, you just have to politely brush them off and move on)

Another thing you can look at is used good condition 1Dmk3s i know they are only 11MP but they produce very nice images can shoot up to 3200 iso with probably a little more noise than the 5d2 but still useable and the APS-H will be great with the 17-40. prices of 1Dmk3 should be getting down now especially with the 1dx on the way as it puts the mk3 as 3 models back. i still use mine at weddings although i'm looking at upgrading it to a 1Dmk4 for better high iso and the extra MP.

all up though i think your best best is still a pair of new 5Dmk2s with warranty from a reputable supplier like B&H or adorama


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## gmrza (Feb 5, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> my 24-105 is an absolute trooper with the stuff its been through and still going strong. tough reliable relatively light good IQ. its a quality package at a respectable price.



It is definitely one of the most versatile lenses, even if its performance, in terms of sharpness is not stellar. It seems to be very popular with Melbourne wedding photographers.

One thought on Speedlites - the 580EXII has a major advantage over its 430EX(II) cousin, because of the greater range of head rotation. - You cannot bounce a 430EX(II) above and behind you in portrait orientation.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 5, 2012)

gmrza said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > my 24-105 is an absolute trooper with the stuff its been through and still going strong. tough reliable relatively light good IQ. its a quality package at a respectable price.
> ...


I didn't know that about the 430, i only have 580s interesting thanks for the info. I recommended 430s mainly to fit into their budget.


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## briansquibb (Feb 5, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> I didn't know that about the 430, i only have 580s interesting thanks for the info. I recommended 430s mainly to fit into their budget.



I am accumultating used 580EXs - they are about the same price as the 430EXII - they are excellent in their own right and being masters means you have backup.

I currently have 

1 580EXII (Bought for the weatherproofing)
5 580EX
1 430EXII ( for my wife's G12, but can be pressed into service if needed)


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## wickidwombat (Feb 5, 2012)

wow thats alot, how many eneloops do you have!

I only have 3 580 exii
i also have 3 yongnuo battery packs for them 
then i have 24 AA eneloops for each flash so i can do a full change if needed


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## briansquibb (Feb 5, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> wow thats alot, how many eneloops do you have!
> 
> I only have 3 580 exii
> i also have 3 yongnuo battery packs for them
> then i have 24 AA eneloops for each flash so i can do a full change if needed



I usually only use 3 at a time, although sometomes I have the key light with a triple head and a 5foot shoot through which is why I need 5

Using all this number of speedlights means that each shot takes a small amout of power, so the batteries last longer and the recycle time is short - so on the 1D4 I can take 3 or 4 on high speed.

I have a charging box which has 6 chargers all with spares (dont forget the extras for the PW) - I plug this in to a plug on site so I always have fresh spares on hand - box also includes a double charger for the camera batteries.


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## revup67 (Feb 5, 2012)

I know everyone of the 5D users likes to bash the 7D with the ISO and it is true but are you really going to be using a high ISO if you have a 580 EXii flash? that was my point. It's hard to discern with the naked eye on an ISO 100 in RAW from a 5D to a 7D unless it's blown up to a poster size. on an 8x10 I would be curious to know if you would truly see a difference. Also, the original poster stated he had a limited budget in mind and trying to stay within that find limitation. I might be hard pressed to go backward in time with a 1Dmk3s and the small LCD. I think the 7D would out pixel this camera regardless and hold up better distortion wise.

Also, all the concern about a higher ISO with the 7D might be moot. It would seem pointless to take those shots anyway as they wouldn't be much good no matter what camera is used. You're gonna get noise from about 800 onward. I'd keep the flash on for anything 800 and over

Here's a 1600 ISO shot in RAW on a 400mm 5.6 @ 1250 at dusk then shrunk to a 5148 pixel JPG then shrunk again to a 1920 pixel JPG. 




Snowy Egret .......(not at the Zoo, in the Wild) by Revup67, on Flickr


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## FOB2009 (Feb 5, 2012)

The Zeiss 100/2.0 is incredible for portraits!


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## wickidwombat (Feb 5, 2012)

revup67 said:


> I know everyone of the 5D users likes to bash the 7D with the ISO and it is true but are you really going to be using a high ISO if you have a 580 EXii flash? that was my point. It's hard to discern with the naked eye on an ISO 100 in RAW from a 5D to a 7D unless it's blown up to a poster size. on an 8x10 I would be curious to know if you would truly see a difference. Also, the original poster stated he had a limited budget in mind and trying to stay within that find limitation. I might be hard pressed to go backward in time with a 1Dmk3s and the small LCD.  I think the 7D would out pixel this camera regardless and hold up better distortion wise.
> 
> Also, all the concern about a higher ISO with the 7D might be moot. It would seem pointless to take those shots anyway as they wouldn't be much good no matter what camera is used. You're gonna get noise from about 800 onward. I'd keep the flash on for anything 800 and over
> 
> ...


quite often in churches you arent allowed to use flash for the ceremony

also with reception and using flash you need to expose for the background the room ambient and balance the subject to get a nice colour balanced shot this usually means shooting with fast glass wide open high iso and flash otherwise if the flash is dominant then the background gets killed to black or very dark so still shooting 1600 or 3200 depending which lens you are using.


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## briansquibb (Feb 5, 2012)

revup67 said:


> I know everyone of the 5D users likes to bash the 7D with the ISO and it is true but are you really going to be using a high ISO if you have a 580 EXii flash?



Using the flash for infill - ie on camera - perhaps during the reception else you end up with just the subject in the picture with the background blacked out. This is particularly important when getting closeup pictures as the closer you are the less flash spill happens (law of squares)

In a reception you might well want the background in focus so need f/8 or so - reducing the light, and needing more iso to keep the shutter speed reasonable

I use flash a lot - including bright sunshine - as it lets you control the light to bring out the subject from the background, I find turning down exposure compensation (-1/3) and flash exposure up (+1/3) just lifts the subject out of the background without using blur


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## vuilang (Feb 5, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> revup67 said:
> 
> 
> > I know everyone of the 5D users likes to bash the 7D with the ISO and it is true but are you really going to be using a high ISO if you have a 580 EXii flash?
> ...



Reception n F8? it must be a very bright reception.. I never got that type and never done that.
Just to have the background in focus, you could use a slight Wide angle lense at around F4 is more than sharp-enough background


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## briansquibb (Feb 5, 2012)

vuilang said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > revup67 said:
> ...



The light in reception is usually fairly low - however at iso 3200 you can manage. Wide angle either gets you people/objects you dont want or you crop and lose IQ. The first dance is one picture where you need to get quite close and guarantee everything in focus. You need to be close to reduce the depth of the flash lighting.

Easier and better to do it the right way. The little tickle of flash turns it into a stunning picture.


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## revup67 (Feb 5, 2012)

> I use flash a lot - including bright sunshine - as it lets you control the light to bring out the subject from the background, I find turning down exposure compensation (-1/3) and flash exposure up (+1/3) just lifts the subject out of the background without using blur



Yes, this is a great idea. If no flash is permitted as you point out at a reception that raises a whole other issue with the WB.

Whatever the situation flash / no flash, higher ISO lower ISO , I would think a White Balance card needs to be included. If a wedding photographer used the AWB or any presets that would be a cause for concern from my point of view.


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## rocketdesigner (Feb 5, 2012)

Also at risk of getting clubbed like a baby seal...
[/quote]

lol...+1


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## briansquibb (Feb 5, 2012)

revup67 said:


> > I use flash a lot - including bright sunshine - as it lets you control the light to bring out the subject from the background, I find turning down exposure compensation (-1/3) and flash exposure up (+1/3) just lifts the subject out of the background without using blur
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shoot in RAW and sort out later. White balance changes to much and taking candids at the receptions gives no opportunity to get the white balance for each shot.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 5, 2012)

revup67 said:


> > I use flash a lot - including bright sunshine - as it lets you control the light to bring out the subject from the background, I find turning down exposure compensation (-1/3) and flash exposure up (+1/3) just lifts the subject out of the background without using blur
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I tend not to use AWB and carry one of these around incase i need a custom WB
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/77mm-77-mm-White-Balance-Lens-Cap-Custom-WB-Filter-NEW-/120792820669?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1fd02bbd
the cards are good but take too long this you just pop on the lens snap a shot off in the general direction and set your custom balance, 
here is a review of them
http://cameradojo.com/2007/05/31/white-balancing-lens-cap-review/


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## revup67 (Feb 6, 2012)

> the cards are good but take too long this you just pop on the lens snap a shot off in the general direction and set your custom balance,
> here is a review of them



I've not used one of those though I know there are a variety of brands ranging up to $125 USD as I recall. For me the cards (specifically the WhiBal same guy makes LensAlign) are pretty quick (they have a target for instant focus) but most importantly I found them most accurate..spot on. No right or wrong it seems as long as one is cognizant not to use AWB or post processing without a proper WB snapshot(s) prior.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 6, 2012)

revup67 said:


> > the cards are good but take too long this you just pop on the lens snap a shot off in the general direction and set your custom balance,
> > here is a review of them
> 
> 
> ...


$125 damn these ones are like $2 or so hehehe you should get one and give it a go its pretty good even in crazy mixed light


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