# Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]



## JVLphoto (Jan 27, 2014)

```
<div name="googleone_share_1" style="position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;"><g:plusone size="tall" count="1" href=""></g:plusone></div><div style="float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;"><a href="https://twitter.com/share" class="twitter-share-button" data-count="vertical" data-url="">Tweet</a></div>
<p>We heard rumour that some folk in the video world are selling off gear in anticipation of a global shutter capable of 2.5k video being made available on an, as of yet, unnamed DSLR. While the wording is hearsay, A global shutter DSLR would definitely be an advancement in film-making tech.</p>
<p>Canon’s been pushing the threshold of video DSLR’s since the launch of the 5DMKII, so there’s no surprise that they would be working to incorporate even more “pro” level video tech in their cameras. It has been their push but, as this is from an unconfirmed source, be sure to sprinkle salt liberally with what you read.</p>
<p>[CR1]</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


----------



## TrabimanUK (Jan 27, 2014)

Not knowing what a "Global Shutter" is - what would the implications of this be if (hypothetically), it was launched on the (to be named) 7D update? Is there any benefit to the stills photography world or is it purely a video thing?


----------



## friedrice1212 (Jan 27, 2014)

TrabimanUK said:


> Not knowing what a "Global Shutter" is - what would the implications of this be if (hypothetically), it was launched on the (to be named) 7D update? Is there any benefit to the stills photography world or is it purely a video thing?



It's a purely video thing. The global shutter is the opposite of the rolling shutter. In live view, the physical shutter doesn't move, so the sensor scans the scene 24 or 30 times a second to create frames.

With a rolling shutter, the sensor scans from top to bottom, creating a distortion effect if you pan the camera, because the sensor doesn't actually capture every part of the image at the exact same time.

A global shutter captures the entire image at once, then waits 1/24 of a second before doing it again, so the distortion, or the "rolling shutter effect" is not present. Global shutters are harder and more expensive to incorporate, as the camera has to process large amounts of data at once, in a small period of time.

For still photography using a physical shutter, it makes no difference.


----------



## jointdoc (Jan 27, 2014)

Thank you friedrice1212. I was going to ask the same question.


----------



## TrabimanUK (Jan 27, 2014)

friedrice1212, thanks. Useful explanation, and as I hadn't hoped for, it's a more of a video thing.

thanks,

Grant


----------



## Quackator (Jan 27, 2014)

While global shutter is indeed very welcome in the video world,
it would at the same time eliminate x-sync in still photography 
and overcome many of the problems that have led to the current
flood of HyperSync/SuperSync/overdrive flash triggers.

Regarding flash this would be a milestone, kill the need for HSS and Co.

I am anxiously looking forward to global shutters in still photography.


----------



## docsmith (Jan 27, 2014)

friedrice1212 said:


> TrabimanUK said:
> 
> 
> > Not knowing what a "Global Shutter" is - what would the implications of this be if (hypothetically), it was launched on the (to be named) 7D update? Is there any benefit to the stills photography world or is it purely a video thing?
> ...



Thanks for the explanation. However, I wonder if the physical infrastructure needed to perform a global shutter wouldn't have implications for still photography. A rolling shutter seems to be the necessary result of having slower processers/read rates (I could be wrong). To pull off a global shutter I would expect you would need faster or more A/D processors and faster read rates. I wonder if such hardware could benefit still photography in terms of fps and possibly (elephant in the room) noise.


----------



## Lawliet (Jan 27, 2014)

docsmith said:


> Thanks for the explanation. However, I wonder if the physical infrastructure needed to perform a global shutter wouldn't have implications for still photography. A rolling shutter seems to be the necessary result of having slower processers/read rates (I could be wrong). To pull off a global shutter I would expect you would need faster or more A/D processors and faster read rates. I wonder if such hardware could benefit still photography in terms of fps and possibly (elephant in the room) noise.



Or you do it old school, with secondary buckets. Give each sensel the capability to put its current charge in a non photosensitve area. Then you have all the time you want to sample. Another option would involve a Kerr- or Pockels-effect based shutter.
But Canon wants more readouts anyway - DPPD-AF makes you want to potentially read the whole sensor*2 at the refresh rate of the current PDAF-sensors (and prcess that data).
Well, Sonys high end compact can read,process and compress to video 60 iirc 20MP-images per second, a similar core in a dual configuration could do quite a lot... 8)


----------



## HurtinMinorKey (Jan 27, 2014)

It helps rolling shuttter in video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-h46Zz9YZQ#t=15

In most cmos sensors, using global shutter means a loss in dynamic range. If they do this, hopefully it will be raw, but I doubt it. 

I think this rumor is just pure speculation.


----------



## roxics (Jan 27, 2014)

As someone who shoots a lot of video I would love this. But I wonder how it will affect the dynamic range of the sensor. 

EDIT: HurtinMinorKey got to this question as I was posting.


----------



## roxics (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm having a hard time believing this. It seems like Canon would introduce this on their C series of cinema cameras before their regular DSLR line. Same being true with the higher resolution (2.5K) video.


----------



## littlebob (Jan 27, 2014)

Rolling shutter means you can never pan with your camera when shooting video. Ever. It sucks so bad I can't believe the DLSR video revolution ever happened


----------



## mkabi (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm happy ;D
I'm not a DR guy, I light the sh!t out of my scenes 



littlebob said:


> Rolling shutter means you can never pan with your camera when shooting video. Ever. It sucks so bad I can't believe the DLSR video revolution ever happened



How fast are your pans?


----------



## mkabi (Jan 27, 2014)

roxics said:


> I'm having a hard time believing this. It seems like Canon would introduce this on their C series of cinema cameras before their regular DSLR line. Same being true with the higher resolution (2.5K) video.



True. But they have 4K for their C line, why go down on resolution?


----------



## KarstenReis (Jan 27, 2014)

Here is a good article from RED that explains it a bit better with some visuals.

http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/global-rolling-shutter


----------



## HurtinMinorKey (Jan 27, 2014)

roxics said:


> I'm having a hard time believing this. It seems like Canon would introduce this on their C series of cinema cameras before their regular DSLR line. Same being true with the higher resolution (2.5K) video.



Remember, the c300 uses an 8MP sensor and intelligently down-samples to 1080 in camera. So if we are only getting 2.5K reads off a sensor, then it's not like this "new camera" would necessarily be using as much or more image data.


----------



## AvTvM (Jan 27, 2014)

don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.

BUT ...
I absolutely do want a fully electonic (global) shutter without any moving mechanical parts (curtains) ... in a totally silent and absolutely vibration-free mirrorless cameras. "Solid State Camera" ... all the way!


----------



## HurtinMinorKey (Jan 27, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.



You still get rolling shutter artifacts (skew) when taking pictures of fast moving objects.


----------



## roxics (Jan 27, 2014)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> Remember, the c300 uses an 8K sensor and intelligently down-samples to 1080 in camera. So if we are only getting 2.5K reads off a sensor, then it's not like this "new camera" would necessarily be using as much or more image data.



Actually it's a 4K sensor downsampled in camera to 1080p. But the point remains that the final image is 1080p. Whereas this headline seems to indicate that the new camera will have a final 2.5K output image. 
Granted the 1DC does do 4K output. But unless the rest of the C series gets a 4K update I can't foresee Canon giving a higher output resolution to their regular DSLR line first. 

But I'm willing to admit I could be totally wrong. There is more to a good image than just resolution. The C series has more going on than just downsampling.


----------



## 9VIII (Jan 27, 2014)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.
> ...



That was my understanding as well, that photographing something like a helicopter would give warped blades unless the camera had a global shutter.
I see this as being just as good for stills as video.

Hopefully this is talking about the 7D replacement, I would love to have 2560x1440 video capability.


----------



## HurtinMinorKey (Jan 27, 2014)

roxics said:


> HurtinMinorKey said:
> 
> 
> > Remember, the c300 uses an 8K sensor and intelligently down-samples to 1080 in camera. So if we are only getting 2.5K reads off a sensor, then it's not like this "new camera" would necessarily be using as much or more image data.
> ...



I think i've made this mistake 100 times now. ;D You are correct, it's 8MP or 4K.


----------



## leethecam (Jan 27, 2014)

Nice... but the reality is that most films shot on digital don't have the benefit of global shutter. The Sony D65 has no issues due to it being a CCD camera, and lately RED have introduced an option to combat the effects, but film favourites like the ARRI Alexa has no global shutter.

The reality is that you need to be careful with pans and moves, but shooting at 24 / 25p requires that anyway.

It's great to lose unwanted artifacts, but think about it... when was the last time in the last 2/3 years you sat through a film cursing the rolling shutter...?


----------



## meauounji (Jan 27, 2014)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.
> ...



Yes. It matters for still... a lot less, because the effect is less obvious in stills, but it does.

Personally, I don't believe the rumor. Canon hasn't "innovated" in the DSLR video space for a while. They've only ever made their video less crappy faster than other manufacturers over time. And I say this as a video guy who currently shoots with a 5D3, and also shot with a 7D and 5D2 when they were the bee's knees in video.

A brief timeline of video on Canon DSLRs:

The 5D2 gave us full frame video for the first time, but no manual audio, no manual exposure, no 24p and 30p wasn't even 29.97 like it should be. It suffered severely from moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec.

The 7D gave us 24p and manual exposure out of the box. It still suffered severely from Moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec.

The 5D2 Eventually got manual exposure, 24p and manual audio, but still suffered from severe moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec. Of course, nothing below the 7D was any better. Eventually, one of the rebels got an articulating screen, which is kind of nice.

Mind you, all these "problems" weren't problems on non-DSLR video cameras, so we're just bringing the cameras back toward "normal" not "good".

Then came the 5D3, which finally got rid of moire, at the cost of overall sharpness (again, I speak from personal experience) and slightly less bad (but still bad) rolling shutter and a slightly less bad (but still bad) recording codec. Worst, 5D3 has hugely ugly fixed pattern noises that were NOT present in either the 5D2 or 7D... progress. Oh, I guess I should give Canon some kudos for enabling clean HDMI out, but they weren't even close to first there, so to say they "innovated" that feature is stretching it a lot.

Around the same time, the 1DC was also announced. Its "innovation" being a 1DX with slightly beefier processors that can shoot cropped 8 megapixel (that's what 4K translates to) JPEGS at 24 frames a second. You could've predicted what the 1DC was going to be from the specs in the "development announcement" just by crunching the pixels processed per second number in the 1DX. I did, and the 1DC was an absolutely no-surprise camera for me.

That's it. That's all the "Innovation" they gave us so far, concerning DSLR video.

Not that the other manufacturers are doing much better, but to believe that all of a sudden, Canon is going to break new ground with not one but TWO features, one of which has only ever been seen in ONE digital cinema camera from a competitor? I don't think so. (By the way, that would be global shutter on CMOS sensor in Sony's F55, and I believe the "cost" of the technology was a half stop less sensitivity)

Would I dearly love Canon to do global shutter and 2.5k in a 1DX-2, 1DC-2, or even a 7D-2? Hell yes. If it comes with a good codec (and I mean 8-bit 4:2:2 in-camera minimum, 10-bit preferred) I would pay 10k for it in a heart beat. The amount of problems global shutter, better codec, and a sensible amount of resolution increase would MORE than justify the cost.


----------



## meauounji (Jan 27, 2014)

leethecam said:


> Nice... but the reality is that most films shot on digital don't have the benefit of global shutter. The Sony D65 has no issues due to it being a CCD camera, and lately RED have introduced an option to combat the effects, but film favourites like the ARRI Alexa has no global shutter.
> 
> The reality is that you need to be careful with pans and moves, but shooting at 24 / 25p requires that anyway.
> 
> It's great to lose unwanted artifacts, but think about it... when was the last time in the last 2/3 years you sat through a film cursing the rolling shutter...?



Agree with most of what you said, except I'd say we tend not to notice rolling shutter in films at least partly because Alexa, RED, and other digital cinema cameras' rolling shutter artifact is less pronounced than in Canon DSLRs. I notice rolling shutter all the time when feature films insert GoPro or DSLR shots in the middle of a sequence.

Also, no to nit-pick, but Sony F65 actually has a CMOS sensor. It sometimes doesn't have rolling shutter because of an optional mechanical shutter system to combat the effect.


----------



## roxics (Jan 27, 2014)

meauounji said:


> Also, no to nit-pick, but Sony F65 actually has a CMOS sensor. It sometimes doesn't have rolling shutter because of an optional mechanical shutter system to combat the effect.



Same being true with the Alexa Studio.


----------



## leethecam (Jan 27, 2014)

roxics said:


> meauounji said:
> 
> 
> > Also, no to nit-pick, but Sony F65 actually has a CMOS sensor. It sometimes doesn't have rolling shutter because of an optional mechanical shutter system to combat the effect.
> ...


You're quite right... sorry... I was thinking of the F35. 

Arri are making great strides in camera development, although their recent lovely thing (the Amira,) is a heavy lump to carry about. I think I'd sometimes trade picture developments for some cameras we could more easily pop on our shoulders... ha.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2014)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> roxics said:
> 
> 
> > HurtinMinorKey said:
> ...



But it's bayer though so it's not really true full color per pixel 4k sensor at all.


----------



## weixing (Jan 28, 2014)

Hi,


meauounji said:


> HurtinMinorKey said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...


 Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.

Have a nice day.


----------



## mkabi (Jan 28, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Global Shutter already exists...
> 
> ... Blackmagic's 4K camera (EF mount compatible)
> ... RED Motion Mount
> ...



Hmmmm... is the blackmagic 4K available?
I always thought its in pre-order indefinitely.


----------



## flowers (Jan 28, 2014)

mkabi said:


> I'm happy ;D
> I'm not a DR guy, I light the sh!t out of my scenes
> 
> 
> ...


+1!
Normal pans are possible. I don't know why anyone needs those crazy whip pans, they make me feel nauseous. Even so, I rarely use pans. If you shoot like Sam Raimi, get a global shutter.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Jan 28, 2014)

Intersting ... learned something new about Global Shutter ... cool 8)


----------



## mkabi (Jan 28, 2014)

dilbert said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Whats the point of announcing a 4K camera if its never going to release? Almost a year, and other people are announcing their own 4K cameras.

You are right... I would buy a 2.5K Blackmagic Camera _if_ it didn't have its own inherent problems.
-It has a crop factor of 2. My 50mm = 100mm, my 16-35mm = 32-70mm so on and so forth.
-It records to SSD, but it heats up when its full?
-2.5K in RAW only, so a 256Gb = 30 min, and I'm burning my fingers every 30 min.

But reality is... no camera is perfect. I bet if they released the Blackmagic 4K tomorrow... it would have its own problems too.


----------



## meauounji (Jan 28, 2014)

weixing said:


> Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.
> 
> Have a nice day.



- I like full frame video. 

- Best selection of fast and wide lenses for the money. (There are no 24mm f1.4 equivalent in APS-C for less than many, many thousands of dollars) 

- I also shoot stills and the 5D3 is a really good stills camera. 

- Size/weight/flexibility in rigging.

- Now raw video in full frame. Impossible on any other camera. (for now)

- Overall good balance of price/performance.


There're lots of reasons to shoot DSLR video. But not because it has the best video quality. 

You have a nice day, too


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Jan 28, 2014)

Global shutter is nice, but isn't absolutely necessary. I just hope the camera doesn't line skip and has a CFast card slot, then let Magic Lantern take care of the rest.


----------



## Niki (Jan 28, 2014)

meauounji said:


> weixing said:
> 
> 
> > Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.
> ...




+1


----------



## flowers (Jan 28, 2014)

meauounji said:


> weixing said:
> 
> 
> > Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.
> ...


+1, totally agree!


----------



## WPJ (Jan 29, 2014)

friedrice1212 said:


> TrabimanUK said:
> 
> 
> > Not knowing what a "Global Shutter" is - what would the implications of this be if (hypothetically), it was launched on the (to be named) 7D update? Is there any benefit to the stills photography world or is it purely a video thing?
> ...


wow could it also increase fps bigger data pipe, faster CPU, 60fps smiles...we would need terabyte cards...


----------



## WPJ (Jan 29, 2014)

meauounji said:


> weixing said:
> 
> 
> > Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.
> ...


who has full frame video as in I mean full pixel count its all down sampled. Full red I guess would rock...


----------



## flowers (Jan 29, 2014)

*FF video*



WPJ said:


> who has full frame video as in I mean full pixel count its all down sampled. Full red I guess would rock...



FF video means that when you stick a 24/1.4 lens on your camera, you get a horizontal AOV of 73.74° and a DOF of f/1.4 at 24mm. That will affect the perspective. If you want practical numbers, if your subject is 2 meters away, your horizontal coverage (how much you see to the sides of your subject) is 3 meters. If you put the same lens on a RED camera, you get a horizontal AOV of 53.89°. This means that you'll only capture 2.03m of the environment horizontally if your subject is 2 meters away. This will look different. The chair on the left of the subject and the hanging tree branch to the right of your subject that were visible in the frame when you used the lens on FF are not visible on your RED camera. The DOF will also be different (deeper) on RED. Also, it's not "down sampled", it's line skipped. The full sensor is used, but only 1080 vertical lines are read out of all the vertical lines to get 1080 resolution video, likewise for horizontal (1920).


----------



## AvTvM (Jan 31, 2014)

dilbert said:


> meauounji said:
> 
> 
> > - I like full frame video.
> ...



+1


----------



## mkabi (Jan 31, 2014)

dilbert said:


> meauounji said:
> 
> 
> > weixing said:
> ...



Just so you know... Canon Cx00 series all have super 35mm, which is not full frame.
Might as well call it an APS-C equivalent...
And the price? For an APS-C equivalent camcorder is....


----------



## Niki (Jan 31, 2014)

*Re: FF video*



flowers said:


> WPJ said:
> 
> 
> > who has full frame video as in I mean full pixel count its all down sampled. Full red I guess would rock...
> ...



so 5d 3 is a 4k camera?


----------



## mkabi (Jan 31, 2014)

*Re: FF video*



Niki said:


> flowers said:
> 
> 
> > WPJ said:
> ...



Not with factory settings...
You can come pretty close to 4K with Magic Lantern.


----------

