# Another Northrup - Canon vs. Nikon



## tayassu (Sep 3, 2014)

Well, here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jva08HY6uLE&list=UUDkJEEIifDzR_2K2p9tnwYQ
Let's hear your thoughts...


----------



## PicaPica (Sep 3, 2014)

can´t be bothered to watch it.

but reading the comments is fun....


----------



## docsmith (Sep 3, 2014)

...cough....5DIII is a 24 MP camera body???....    ???


----------



## whothafunk (Sep 3, 2014)

is this video for real? 24MP 5DIII, Nikkor 70-200mm f2.8 actually 60-130mm,.. ?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2014)

docsmith said:


> ...cough....5DIII is a 24 MP camera body???....    ???



No matter how good you are, there's always someone better. I never thought I'd find someone who makes Ken Rockwell look more technically competent and less biased, but Tony's da man.


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > ...cough....5DIII is a 24 MP camera body???....    ???
> ...



I have to shoot some photos for Facebook today...according to Tony I can go ahead and use Canon FF ;D


----------



## distant.star (Sep 3, 2014)

.
I've stopped watching his stuff. He's been on my poopy list a while now.

I think he's going through a mid-life crisis or maybe he's gotten into recreational chemistry.


----------



## canon1dxman (Sep 3, 2014)

His wife looks nice though


----------



## 9VIII (Sep 3, 2014)

docsmith said:


> ...cough....5DIII is a 24 MP camera body???....    ???



One reason I think Kai is not the worst.

Tony needs a writer.


----------



## raptor3x (Sep 3, 2014)

That was nothing more than a 25 minute infomercial.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> That was nothing more than a 25 minute infomercial.



Knowing that going in, I didn't waste any time actually watching it.


----------



## cid (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> raptor3x said:
> 
> 
> > That was nothing more than a 25 minute infomercial.
> ...



sad think is that he's trying to look serious and professional

I'd like to know where/how he got the (relative) numbers for sharpness of lenses? 

equations like
22MPx of 5D mk II * 1.0909 + kit lens = 8MPx​where 1.0909 is some magic number so he can say D800E has 50% more resolution
looks too funny to be taken serious, but if someone does nothing (like John Snow ;D) then he could get convinced it's the way it really works


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 3, 2014)

9VIII said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > ...cough....5DIII is a 24 MP camera body???....    ???
> ...



LOL! First time I saw Kai was when he ripped on the EOS M. Being an M fan I think I ripped on him in a forum or two...not that he would ever read it, know me, or care 

Watching more of his videos...I actually like him. You're not going to get in depth info there, but I think he's fair overall and practical. He even went back and was more even handed with the M after the firmware update.


----------



## raptor3x (Sep 3, 2014)

cid said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > raptor3x said:
> ...



It comes from DXO's perceptual sharpness value, aka turn all the resolution data from a lens into a single number. The best part is that he spends 1/2 the video using those numbers as the basis for all of his comparisons and then in the second half he has a section where he looks at a specific lens, and comes to the conclusion that even though the perceptual sharpness number looked incredible for a certain lens, it turned out to be unusably soft. Oops.


----------



## bowtiez (Sep 3, 2014)

I watched the video and i think his arguments are valid for the Canon 70-200 II. After that, he loses it.
Kai ftw!


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 3, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> It comes from DXO's perceptual sharpness value, aka turn all the resolution data from a lens into a single number. The best part is that he spends 1/2 the video using those numbers as the basis for all of his comparisons and then in the second half he has a section where he looks at a specific lens, and comes to the conclusion that even though the perceptual sharpness number looked incredible for a certain lens, it turned out to be unusably soft. Oops.



I was about to point that out. More nonsense from DxO. Rather then use industry standard tests and terminology (lpmm at MTF50 and MTF10) take a well defined, simple term and twist it into something it's not, something that is intentionally confusing for new and veteran photographers alike.

Then someone like Tony jumps on the fictitious "score" to "prove" a point. Kind of like DxO's views on DR and overall sensor scores.

Man I'm growing to hate that site.


----------



## cid (Sep 3, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> cid said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


nice to know that ??? I wasn't even able to watch it till the end...


----------



## Sabaki (Sep 3, 2014)

All bullshit aside, he's not wrong. 

Nikon's bodies are better, although he doesn't mention the remarkable 1DX for some reason. 

Canon's lenses are better IMO. I can't comment on the $10k+ big teles but I agree that on the whole, Canon's lenses have the edge.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> All bullshit aside, he's not wrong.
> Nikon's bodies are better...



Based on? Better AF with more cross-type points spread further over the frame? Faster frame rates? Better implementation of Live View? Ergonomics? Viewfinder magnification?


----------



## cid (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > All bullshit aside, he's not wrong.
> ...



the problem is that lot of people consider sensor being whole body and compare only those


----------



## fussy III (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Based on? Better AF with more cross-type points spread further over the frame? Faster frame rates? Better implementation of Live View? Ergonomics? Viewfinder magnification?



Based on what? - Simple answer: on capacities regarding shadow-lifting, DR and resolution (as Mr. Northrup readily points out to anyone willing to listen).

And he is right. Lifted shadows look awful with Canon. I know that from experience with black and white plumaged birds. And resolution of D810 with a good lens is unsurpassed in FF. Guess everyone open-eyed would agree. 

Whether I am going to switch to Nikon/Pentax 645Z will depend on Canon's sensor-politics in the coming 6 month (and partly on framerate and buffersize of the D750). The sensor is definately conditioning my love for Canon.

And since the sensor is a physically limiting factor to any output of any DSLR concerning each and every user, I would think that neither Mr. Northrup's nor my take on Nikon vs. Canon is too personal or biased. Who cares about numbers or DXO-charts when something is so obvious. Just view the files!


----------



## Sabaki (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > All bullshit aside, he's not wrong.
> ...


Based on what my eye tells me. All respect to you Neuro, I do buy into the logic that there's aspects of the Canon bodies, like AF, that beats the Nikons. But as far as image quality is concerned, Nikon wins out. 

I can't compete with you on technical knowledge yet I've seen far too many articles to think that every article is biased in Nikon's favour. 

I am 100% Canon and have no intention of switching.


----------



## 9VIII (Sep 3, 2014)

Hang on a second, at the end, he gave Nikon the advantage for "high end" wildlife photographers because of increased IQ (6:20), but those numbers were based on the D810, not the D4/S as I'm assuming most professional photographers would use (shooting at high ISO at dawn and such), which brings the resolution back down to where the 1DX has the advantage...
The kicker is he talks like the Nikon lenses are sharper, probably based on the DXO scores attached to the D810.

Come Friday, hopefully Tony will have to eat every single word in that video (minus the stuff about Canon having better lens and flash selection).


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 3, 2014)

fussy III said:


> Lifted shadows look awful with Canon.



No. They look awful when people come up with unrealistic, underexposed tests and turn off all NR. They look fine when you expose like a trained photographer for a real world scene and use a little NR.



> And resolution of D810 with a good lens is unsurpassed in FF. Guess everyone open-eyed would agree.



Except that you literally cannot tell the difference in large prints. Most of the glowing over 36 MP comes down to people not scaling the comparison image up correctly with light sharpening. I just went through this deciding which Sony A7 I want to buy. When pixel peeping you will catch differences in very fine textures, tiny patterns, and tiny high contrast details (i.e. small print).

In a 24" or 36" print? Good luck. And that's off an Epson professional printer to Hot Press Bright.

When Canon ships a higher rez sensor they need to go to 50 MP+. You need a 50% gain on each axis to matter in a print.



> Who cares about numbers or DXO-charts when something is so obvious. Just view the files!



We have. Repeatedly.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2014)

fussy III said:


> Based on what? - Simple answer: on capacities regarding shadow-lifting, DR and resolution (as Mr. Northrup readily points out to anyone willing to listen).





Sabaki said:


> Based on what my eye tells me. All respect to you Neuro, I do buy into the logic that there's aspects of the Canon bodies, like AF, that beats the Nikons. But as far as image quality is concerned, Nikon wins out.



Sensor ≠ camera. 



Sabaki said:


> ...I've seen far too many articles to think that every article is biased in Nikon's favour.



Of course not every article/blog post is biased. Tony Northrup's manifestly are, though.


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 3, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> I can't compete with you on technical knowledge yet I've seen far too many articles to think that every article is biased in Nikon's favour.



They're not biased, they're just splitting hairs or...worse...concocting ridiculous tests that have nothing to do with the real world.

The Exmor 36 MP sensor is better by a small margin. To rant about it blowing away the 5D3 sensor or negating Canon FF to Facebook status...Ken Rockwell isn't that silly.


----------



## andrewflo (Sep 3, 2014)

Someone tries to start a discussion about Nikon vs. Canon and everyone goes up in arms... shocker.

How about instead of all calling the man the devil, everyone who disagrees formulate a more accurate, correct, comparison of technical stats and performance. 

I don't disagree that some of what he said may be incorrect, I personally don't have the knowledge to say one way or the other. But I think it's an interesting topic and some of the data he refers to makes sense enough to me.

Maybe he's incorrect though? If someone can come up with a more accurate comparison, I'd like to see it and I'm sure I'm not alone.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2014)

andrewflo said:


> Maybe he's incorrect though?



Maybe? 

[quote author=Tony Northrup]
The D810 is vastly superior to the 5DIII, but: "_If you're putting photos on Facebook...it probably won't make much difference._" 
[/quote]

The 5DIII is suitable only for posting images to Facebook. Do _you_ want to argue that he's correct?? :


----------



## Lt Colonel (Sep 3, 2014)

I can't run with you guys on a technical basis, but I have to admit upfront that I have a considerable (for me) investment in Canon products and I wish everyone was raving about a new Canon model. Hopefully that will happen on September 15th. However, just because Northrup makes a living photographing and selling his opinion on cameras and techniques, doesn't necessarily make him the "be all" photography pundit. 

Over the past couple of years during my search for tips and techniques I've stumbled across some of Northrup's videos. In the beginning I thought they were pretty good, and at the time he was using a Canon which made it easier for me. However, in the last year or less, it seems his videos lack professionalism or instruction. The last one I tried to watch made me think that he and his lovely wife had just returned from an industrial sized wine tasting event. I too have jumped from his works.

Scott Kelby jumped from Nikon to Canon a year or so ago. Could it be that Nikon is looking for someone new to carry their water? Maybe Northrup is getting a brown truck load of promotional gear to use in his future videos and books.

I guess the bottom line is, I'm Canon biased. If I was interested in Nikon, I would join a Nikon forum.


----------



## iMagic (Sep 3, 2014)

Never watched Tony before so I couldnt resist........

The Nikon bodies are better than Canon, except I cant switch. I wish I could, but I can't.... I really wish Nikon had better lenses, more variety of lenses, better flashes, cheaper 50mm base lens, more third party accessories than Canon. But they dont...... I really like Nikon bodies, they are the best. Buy Nikon.

1, using DxO as a comparison tool. RECOMMENDED TO EVERYONE AS THE BEST PLACE TO COMPARE BEFORE YOU BUY.

2, comparing 5D III with D800E. One with AA Filter one without and then using DxO sharpness comparison for the 24-70mm. Of course Canon loses this DxO race, but if he used the D800 (with AA filter), then Canon would win (at least according to DxO).

3, recommending D800E (with no AA filter) as a travel/casual lens.

4, Saying Sigma/Tamron are equivalent on both bodies when in fact he did not take into account AF issues compared to native lenses.

5, "flashes... not as big a difference between them..... but there is one big difference" ??? (what is it, big or not big). Then mentions that Canon has better third party flashes than Nikon, and then mentions Canon RT. Isnt that two "big" differences?

6, recommending Unlimited budget wildlife photographers to go Nikon D810 over any other Canon (really, 1Dx and the big white lens line up are no good)


----------



## 9VIII (Sep 4, 2014)

Lt Colonel said:


> I can't run with you guys on a technical basis, but I have to admit upfront that I have a considerable (for me) investment in Canon products and I wish everyone was raving about a new Canon model. Hopefully that will happen on September 15th. However, just because Northrup makes a living photographing and selling his opinion on cameras and techniques, doesn't necessarily make him the "be all" photography pundit.
> 
> Over the past couple of years during my search for tips and techniques I've stumbled across some of Northrup's videos. In the beginning I thought they were pretty good, and at the time he was using a Canon which made it easier for me. However, in the last year or less, it seems his videos lack professionalism or instruction. The last one I tried to watch made me think that he and his lovely wife had just returned from an industrial sized wine tasting event. I too have jumped from his works.
> 
> ...



The sad thing is he's made the same kind of blunders before, he actually believes what he's saying. Go watch his (absolute mess, should be taken down and re-shot) crop factor video (or don't, it's an absolute mess and should be taken down). He had to post a defence video just for that one. The details are correct in his head, it just came out one big garbled mess.


----------



## wickidwombat (Sep 5, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> raptor3x said:
> 
> 
> > That was nothing more than a 25 minute infomercial.
> ...



this is the benefit of china unilaterally blocking facebook google and youtube i actually have to spend effort and turn on my US VPN to watch so by reading the comments first or seeing warning signs like "tony northrop" then i dont wast effort or time watching it. 

another benefit is i don't have 1000 alerts a day from other peoples facebook regarding what they just ate, are about to eat or what their cat just ate or is about to eat...


----------



## phoenix7 (Sep 5, 2014)

9VIII said:


> The sad thing is he's made the same kind of blunders before, he actually believes what he's saying. Go watch his (absolute mess, should be taken down and re-shot) crop factor video (or don't, it's an absolute mess and should be taken down). He had to post a defence video just for that one. The details are correct in his head, it just came out one big garbled mess.



That vid, what I could watch of it, was where I totally wrote off that guy. I'd rather be made to watch a FroKnowsPhoto vid, at least Jared Polin has a clever youtube name.

RE: Kai in one of your other comments - he's hilarious! And at least he and Lok are out there actually
taking real world pictures. What I really want to see is him paint a 5d3 and d800 pink!  Then they can
get Molly Ringwald to guest star in a short vid in which she discusses which is Prettier in Pink.


----------



## sagittariansrock (Sep 16, 2014)

What I loved about the video:

The fact that-

the only advantage Canon cameras have is a larger buffer 
portrait photogs should use Canon because of the longer reach of Canon's 70-200 II (how about the 99% photogs who don't shoot portraits at 200mm?)
sports shooters <10k should use Canon because of the 70-200 II and the 400 5.6 (how about the <10k great whites? or blacks, if you think Nikon)
and of course, as someone mentioned- >10k wildlife and sports are recommended to get the D810. As is he hasn't heard of the 1D X or D4s.

I used to like his reviews and technical discussions, but now it has become too ridiculous and lost all objectivity.


----------

