# Announcements Coming The First Week of September [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 11, 2018)

```
We’re told that photo gear related announcements from Canon will be coming the first week of September, it is expected that Canon will announce at least one mirrorless camera.</p>
<p>Other product announcements are also expected around the same time leading into Photokina, which begins September 26, 2018.</p>
<p>The full frame mirrorless camera from Canon is being described as an “EOS 5D Mark IV in  a mirrorless body” internally by at least one retail insider. We think we’re going to get more than  a mirrorless version of a two year old camera.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## jeffpoker (Jul 11, 2018)

I left Canon for Fujifilm because I wanted to go mirrorless. But I did love my Canon and, most of all, I loved how many accessories from third party work on Canon. With Fuji, although it's a bit better now than it was (looking at you flash system), we're still stuck a little bit as to what we can use.

I was probably asleep for a while because it's the first time I read that at least one of the new mirrorless was going to be a "5D Mark IV" mirrorless camera. I kept reading it would be a 6D at most.
If that's true, then I'm looking forward to seeing what Canon will release.


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## BeenThere (Jul 11, 2018)

If they just took the mirror box out of the 5Div body and added a good EVF, I think I would get one .... but probably not what is coming.


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## andrei1989 (Jul 11, 2018)

anyone else excited for the 32mm EF-M? 
hopefully i won't be too disappointed by the price...
maybe i'll even preorder..


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## -pekr- (Jul 11, 2018)

Is there a chance this is not FF related at all, e.g. M6 II or M5 II coming instead?


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## Chaitanya (Jul 11, 2018)

Where are the replacement of 50mm macro and 180mm macro?


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## Durf (Jul 11, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Is there a chance this is not FF related at all, e.g. M6 II or M5 II coming instead?



I think it's going to be perhaps the 7D3 or the 90D, maybe both.

Could be the 7D3 and a mid range FF mirrorless instead, I think they may do the flagship FF Mirrorless at Photokina.

I'm just guessing of course.....


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## amorse (Jul 11, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> We think we’re going to get more than a mirrorless version of a two year old camera.



I would like to believe that too, but I'm not sure how different it will be other than what's necessary to make it mirrorless. Make no mistake, the 5D IV is a great camera and probably enough to get Canon into the full frame mirrorless game in a big way, but Canon doesn't really seem to enjoy rocking the boat for the sake of rocking the boat - only releasing a limited number of key new features at a time. 

For the 5D IV to become mirrorless, it will need an EVF which could enable all sorts of things which aren't possible right now, so Canon will have their big new features to push - they may not opt to add much more than that. Considering that a 5D IV is intended to be a relatively high-performing camera, I would think maybe they'll really push the latency of the EVF and advertise it as a low latency pro-mirrorless camera - that would be very much in line with Canon's focus on usability and reliability, and it wouldn't threaten their other lines.

But again, if this is really just a 5D IV I think the real question we all want to know is *will it have dual pixel raw??!!*


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## Canoneer (Jul 11, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Is there a chance this is not FF related at all, e.g. M6 II or M5 II coming instead?



An M5 II would be welcome. And it should be coming out by late this year or early next year if Canon intend to have their mirrorless enthusiast APS-C segment refresh cycle match the DSLR enthusiast APS-C refresh cycle. But I'd rather see them put some serious effort into delivering some extremely high-quality EF-M primes. The 32mm f/1.4 STM looks amazing, but I'm currently in the Fuji camp for my APS-C gear - and Fuji's XF selection versus Canon's EF-M? Well... Let's just say they have some work to do.


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## -pekr- (Jul 11, 2018)

amorse said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We think we’re going to get more than a mirrorless version of a two year old camera.
> ...



I think that if it is going to be a MILC version of the 5DIV, then mostly the only thing it will use from the 5DIV is, going to be a sensor, and even then I doubt it. They will use new DIGIC and overall design of PCBs is going to be redesigned anyway. At least I hope so, because as a relatively new owners of the 5DIV (3 months), what we are confused about, is the really weak battery life. Like spending 15 minutes in the menu learning the stuff and battery is down by 30%. Add an EVF and you are done sooner than you move to the shooting location 



> But again, if this is really just a 5D IV I think the real question we all want to know is *will it have dual pixel raw??!!*



What for? Has anyone really found it any useful in a practical life scenario?


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## amorse (Jul 11, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...


I'm not aware of anyone finding a really good and *practical* use for it yet (to be clear - I was kidding in my last post).

On your note about battery life - I've noticed the same thing on mine. I've read it is due to the touch screen: if you turn it off the problem should go away. Annoying to disable a feature I actually really like, but it's worth a shot!


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## rrcphoto (Jul 11, 2018)

Canoneer said:


> -pekr- said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a chance this is not FF related at all, e.g. M6 II or M5 II coming instead?
> ...



This would place the M5 on a two year cycle. not a 4 year. unless you meant rebel cycle. It's also pretty solidly rumored as coming this PhotoKina btw.



Canoneer said:


> But I'd rather see them put some serious effort into delivering some extremely high-quality EF-M primes. The 32mm f/1.4 STM looks amazing, but I'm currently in the Fuji camp for my APS-C gear - and Fuji's XF selection versus Canon's EF-M? Well... Let's just say they have some work to do.



I have a few fuji friends, and they are relatively jealous by how small and compact my kit is versus theirs and just how good my images are out of my M5 and my 11-22 and 18-150. While they have small kits compared to DSLR full frame, my kit takes it down even more notches to what they can do. while maintaining a huge versatility gap.

without going down to m43's, IMO, the EF-M is the best kit you can assemble per pound with focal coverage, the lenses just don't sound sexy.


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## tmc784 (Jul 11, 2018)

“EOS 5D Mark IV in a mirrorless body” 8)
OK ! What about the lenses mount and IBIS ? ???


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## infared (Jul 11, 2018)

tmc784 said:


> “EOS 5D Mark IV in a mirrorless body” 8)
> OK ! What about the lenses mount and IBIS ? ???


"Going Down" to MFT...um....I will take my extensive Olympus kit any day of the week to that limited M. I think M stands for Mess.  (tongue in cheek)
I know we all have our own priorities....but the image quality from my EM1 II and Penn F's is GREAT for 90% of my needs....Not when it comes to my Astro Images....but the M is missing that by a mile, too....so that is for a capable FF that takes the best Astro Oriented Lenses....
All the cameras these days are "good"!


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## transpo1 (Jul 11, 2018)

amorse said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We think we’re going to get more than a mirrorless version of a two year old camera.
> ...



Agreed. I also question whether we're going to get a lot more than a 5DIV in a mirrorless body. Judging by Canon's track record, they may not include anything more than they have to- push the EVF tech and autofocus. I'd buy if it had the following:

Great EVF
Weather sealing
Dual card slots
DPAF (obviously) 
New 4K codec with no crop (FF) and DPAF in 4K video
At least 120fps FHD
At least 1 new, lightweight kit lens and at least 1 fast prime

Those are bare minimum requirements for me, but realistically, Canon will more likely implement a 1.7x crop on the 4K just like the 5D even though it will be a huge mistake. Despite the realism, I will try to think positively here


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> We’re told that photo gear related announcements from Canon will be coming the first week of September, it is expected that Canon will announce at least one mirrorless camera.



But it might be a _crop_ mirrorless camera (in September). No FF listed above. This one above could be the M5 II and/or M6 II.



Canon Rumors said:


> The full frame mirrorless camera from Canon is being described as an “EOS 5D Mark IV in a mirrorless body” internally by at least one retail insider. We think we’re going to get more than a mirrorless version of a two year old camera.



Color me skeptical on a 5D "mark 4.5" sort of feature set. My guess (for a 5D-level mirrorless, there will be other models someday) = general parity with the 5D4 in a smaller package can be yours for a little north of $3k. Perhaps the current 5D4 specs with the following additions: tilty-flippy touch + possibly a higher burst rate + possibly slightly better video features (less 4K crop?). I do not believe Canon will dramatically one-up the specs over the SLR market slot this mirrorless is spec'd around.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

andrei1989 said:


> anyone else excited for the 32mm EF-M?
> hopefully i won't be too disappointed by the price...
> maybe i'll even preorder..



Can't be _that_ expensive. Disregarding the older pricey EF-S USM zoom lenses that Canon has apparently decided to not continue designing, the priciest EF-S and EF-M lenses are in the $599-699 range. I doubt it will cost more than that.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Is there a chance this is not FF related at all, e.g. M6 II or M5 II coming instead?



+1. 

M5 II / M6 II + the EF-M 32mm f/1.4 would be a logical combo to announce together.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

amorse said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We think we’re going to get more than a mirrorless version of a two year old camera.
> ...



Sure, but does anyone really think that Canon will go conservative again with the rear LCD on the 5-series? 

D850 has a tilty-flippy. A7R3 has a tilty-flippy. Everything in the industry save the sideline sports rigs have a tilty-flippy now.

It's a market expectation at this price point now, or (conversely) it's a T on Canon's SWOT analysis if they don't offer one. I think we've passed the inflection point where enough folks want one + those who don't have heard zero horror stories that they will break >> those who still insist the rigid screen is still best. I flipped on this issue a few years back and I imagine many folks here have as well.

So I think a tilty-flippy is happening 100% on a 5-series mirrorless (if such happens) and the 5D5. The _5DS2_ possibly may not get one if they are still recycling 5D parts into that design, but we'll see.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > But again, if this is really just a 5D IV I think the real question we all want to know is *will it have dual pixel raw??!!*
> ...



I believe that was a joke.

_That said_, some folks have backdoored a way in post-processing to get an +1 stop base ISO DR out of it on the 5D4. It apparently takes work: you need third party tools to handle the files. 

It's not organic file latitude you can just manipulate with sliders in ACR/LR. But it would be pretty damn cool if someone could make it so.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> This would place the M5 on a two year cycle. not a 4 year. unless you meant rebel cycle. It's also pretty solidly rumored as coming this PhotoKina btw.



But the M5 is spec'd like an XXD camera, which is usually on a _three_ year refresh. But mirrorless is a more dynamic market right now and perhaps a peppier 2 year cycle (like what's now done for Rebel SLRs) would be warranted. We'll see.

- A


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## Yasko (Jul 11, 2018)

5D mk IV in a mirrorless body definitely sounds like it will be 3000$ +, so I am out 
At a 6D mk II release price I would be tempted (although I just bought a 6D mk II), but more I cannot justify.
But seeing reviews nearly counts as having it in your hands ;D, still only a hobby.

I would like a new 50 mm for FF anytime soon though. Sold mine because the USM is just not my taste and I am peering towards a refresh in the next year or so...


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## rrcphoto (Jul 11, 2018)

amorse said:


> But again, if this is really just a 5D IV I think the real question we all want to know is *will it have dual pixel raw??!!*



you know we complain that canon isn't innovative, and when canon is the ONLY one to try, and tosses out some computational photography post process people still get on them for it.

They can't win.


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## rrcphoto (Jul 11, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told that photo gear related announcements from Canon will be coming the first week of September, it is expected that Canon will announce at least one mirrorless camera.
> ...


I doubt an M6 II will come out before an M5. M6 is basically an M5 without the EVF and a few other features downgraded.
the M5 is certainly ready for a update being two years old this september. that's a long refresh cycle in the EF-M world.



ahsanford said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > The full frame mirrorless camera from Canon is being described as an “EOS 5D Mark IV in a mirrorless body” internally by at least one retail insider. We think we’re going to get more than a mirrorless version of a two year old camera.
> ...



when you think about it. Canon's mirrorless already shoot at 7.5fps with full AF and 9fps with AE/AF locked with a 24MP sensor and that's with the M50 small camera.

regardless of the sensor format that won't impact speed that dramatically, there should be no reason why a 5D like mirrorless can't meet or exceed the performance envelope of a 5D non mirrorless. the main tech surrounding the speed has alot to do with the shutter mechanism that simply doesn't exist on a 5D mirrorless.

DIGIC 8 obviously brings h.264 to 4K for Canon and that alone is a huge jump in what they will be able to do in the camera


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> when you think about it. Canon's mirrorless already shoot at 7.5fps with full AF and 9fps with AE/AF locked with a 24MP sensor and that's with the M50 small camera.
> 
> regardless of the sensor format that won't impact speed that dramatically, there should be no reason why a 5D like mirrorless can't meet or exceed the performance envelope of a 5D non mirrorless. the main tech surrounding the speed has alot to do with the shutter mechanism that simply doesn't exist on a 5D mirrorless.



Can you elaborate on the red bit? The mirror will be gone, but not the shutter. Was the 5D4's shutter's performance limited to work better with a mirror somehow?

And I'm not saying a 5-series mirrorless will _clone_ the 5D4 specs. Surely there will be some differences. I just don't think Canon wants to create major (non-mirrorless fueled) feature-set envy with the SLR these mirrorless bodies will line up alongside. I see a ballpark similarly spec'd product coming out without a mirror for about the same price as the SLR. Surely, the first year it will be pricier as a first for Canon, but that should steady out in future refreshes.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Jul 11, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > when you think about it. Canon's mirrorless already shoot at 7.5fps with full AF and 9fps with AE/AF locked with a 24MP sensor and that's with the M50 small camera.
> ...



sorry I should have said mirror / sub mirror mechanism.



ahsanford said:


> And I'm not saying a 5-series mirrorless will clone the 5D4 specs. Surely there will be some differences. I just don't think Canon wants to create major (non-mirrorless fueled) feature-set envy with the SLR these mirrorless bodies will line up alongside. I see a ballpark similarly spec'd product coming out without a mirror for about the same price as the SLR. Surely, the first year it will be pricier as a first for Canon, but that should steady out in future refreshes.



I really don't think they care, as long as you buy Canon.

The 5D Mark V will come out in 1-2 years and will surpass this camera's featureset, and so on and so forth.

if DIGIC 8 is a major DIGIC leap in performance especially video, i wouldnt be surprised to see Canon fasttrack every single camera to be updated fast with it.


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## unfocused (Jul 11, 2018)

The current 5DIV sells for $3,100 with a free battery grip. $2,650 through CPW street price. 

A Mirrorless 5DIV selling for roughly the same amount makes some sense. I don't see it being "better" than the 5DIV so much as it will be "different."

Same sensor and core features. It might have a higher frame rate, but without a bigger buffer it won't matter, as it is waiting for the buffer to clear that puts the 5DIV at a disadvantage against the 1DxII.

It should offer a near silent shutter which would be appealing. 

If Nikon really does offer in-body stabilization, I would not be surprised if Canon does the same. I could see that happening for two reasons:

1) Better video performance. In-lens stabilization wasn't designed for video, which needs continuous stabilizing, not simply stabilization when the shutter is pressed. 

2) Smaller native mount lenses. If Canon does add a new mount, the best way to keep the lenses small is to take stabilization out of the new lenses and put it into the camera. This would also help differentiate the new mount lenses from EF-mount. 

My sense is that Sony's success in mirrorless has been built in part on the use of their cameras for video. IBIS and the mirrorless form factor, coupled with their wide range of lenses could help both Nikon and Canon capture more of the video market. 

The deciding factor between the DLSR and Mirrorless version of the 5DIV might come down to just how good the electronic viewfinder is and what people's personal preference may be. I strongly disagree with CR Guy that it can't be a mirrorless version of the 5DIV. I think it can and will be.


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## timmy_650 (Jul 11, 2018)

The could bump up the spec from the 5D4 and about the time it is going to shipping leak details on the 1DX3. So they will have a strong mirrorless and DSLR.
Bc if they just have a $3000 mirrorless 5D, I can't seeing that selling well. A 6Dm2 spec with 30.4 senor for $2000, i could see that selling well.


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## amorse (Jul 11, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > But again, if this is really just a 5D IV I think the real question we all want to know is *will it have dual pixel raw??!!*
> ...



Dual pixel raw just always seemed like an after thought. It was marketed, but I never felt that Canon really pushed it as the marquee feature on the camera: it just seemed like it was added because they could regardless of whether or not it would be widely used. 

To be fair though, I still think it is a good thing - not all innovation is going to result in ground breaking new systems off the bat; some will fall flat. I'm ok with that - it's part of innovation. DPAF was very innovative in my opinion, and is certainly a leader in live-view autofocus systems. I don't think I've ever accused Canon of not being innovative.

I was actually really interested in dual pixel raw's opportunity to get an extra stop of DR, and if getting that was baked into adobe's camera raw rather than running it through another program first (and preferably visible on the camera via histogram), I would 100% use it. Now if they were able to use dual pixel raw to create dual ISO images and make that data accessible through camera raw or Lightroom... that would be very interesting to me (but maybe no-one else).


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## Kit. (Jul 11, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> you know we complain that canon isn't innovative, and when canon is the ONLY one to try,


...like Direct Print button?


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

timmy_650 said:


> Bc if they just have a $3000 mirrorless 5D, I can't seeing that selling well. A 6Dm2 spec with 30.4 senor for $2000, i could see that selling well.



You're right. 30 x 6.5 + tilty-flippy + canon's best sensor for $2k _would_ sell well. But that's not going to happen, IMHO -- sorry.

The mirrorless and SLR market overlap in some places and are different in others. But if Canon prices things too aggressively to sell mirrorless, they will negatively impact their SLR sales. For instance, if Canon puts out what is loosely a 5D4 + tilty-flippy for $2k as your describe, I have little doubt that 5D4 sales @ $3,099 today will go down considerably.

It's far more likely Canon puts out one of these three sort of offerings in FF mirrorless:


A fundamentally different value proposition that sits between existing FF SLR price points that is appropriately priced in between them
A very similar-to-SLR spec'd* FF mirrorless for about the same price
A very similar-to-SLR spec'd* FF mirrorless _for a markup_ because FF mirrorless is new for Canon users

*Could be a time-adjusted _slightly_ better version than the 5D4 or 6D2 it is based on, but not dramatically better. If they did that, it would more resemble the first option and they'd just ask for more money.

No one knows the specs, of course, but I don't think Canon will give the good stuff away for less than they ask for in SLRs.

- A


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## NeverPlayMonopoly (Jul 11, 2018)

Using past experiences, can anyone predict what they believe will be the price drop of the 5dm4 as we know it?


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

NeverPlayMonopoly said:


> Using past experiences, can anyone predict what they believe will be the price drop of the 5dm4 as we know it?



Predict? No. 

Make an educated guess? Sure. Look at the 5D3 price plot vs. time. 

Keep in mind that these are USD prices from official resellers -- this varies quite a bit elsewhere.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Jul 11, 2018)

amorse said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > amorse said:
> ...



I think they didn't know how actual useful it would be "in the field" but decided to push it out and see what the response would be.

No one else is doing anything of the sort of computational photography post process, I hope they continue to push what they can do with DP Raw including depth mapping and further refinement.

Dual ISO will never happen. using it for 1 EV highlight protection works because each half gets 2/3's to 1/2 of the light of the total summed halves.

even taking one half of the image and using that for highlight data can be problematic.


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## rrcphoto (Jul 11, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> timmy_650 said:
> 
> 
> > Bc if they just have a $3000 mirrorless 5D, I can't seeing that selling well. A 6Dm2 spec with 30.4 senor for $2000, i could see that selling well.
> ...



but if they are still making the same or more profit why would they care?

but in reality i could see them pushing out a 2k and a 3k camera body anyways TBH.


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## RGF (Jul 11, 2018)

Given that Nikon is coming out w/ a Mirrorless FF camera and theirs will most likely be based upon the D850, it will be interesting to see if Canon offers a competitive package or just a slightly improved version of 5D M4 in a mirrorless body.

based upon Canon's lack of breakthrough products recently I am doubtful. They products are well engineered but Canon plays it very safe by introducing "safe" products that are not too big of an innovation


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## edoorn (Jul 11, 2018)

true and if they'd do that, the mirrorless offering would already be behind on what Nikon is bringing. According to NR, a 10 fps body with fantastic AF (400 points and working very well), 3,6million dot EVF and great handling/ergonomics. However, this could be a great moment for a bit of a rupture in terms of philosophy. 

In interviews last year and earlier this year, Canon executives expressed the need to ramp up innovation. So, it'll be interesting to see what happens next.


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## dak723 (Jul 11, 2018)

RGF said:


> based upon Canon's lack of breakthrough products recently I am doubtful. They products are well engineered but Canon plays it very safe by introducing "safe" products that are not too big of an innovation



Which is exactly why some folks like myself like Canon's cameras. I'll take well engineered every day of the week. Having tried some of the more innovative brands, I have found that most innovations don't work very well - and companies more interested in innovation aren't doing that well in terms of being "well engineered."


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## xps (Jul 11, 2018)

An Sony rumor site writes following NIKON Specs for their MLS:
"

Two different mirrorless full frame cameras
Resolution: 24-25MP and *45-48MP*
Similar body size to the Sony a7 camera
*5-axis in-body stabilization
9fps
4k video*
Memory cards: *XQD and CF Express*
EVF resolution: *3.6 million dots*
Nikon is putting a lot of emphasis and effort into the *shooting experience* of the new mirrorless camera. The camera was *designed with ergonomics* in mind.
Over *400 AF points*, not sure about the exact number, it should be somewhere between 430-450. The AF is supposed to be very fast.
The rear *LCD screen is tiltable* just like the Nikon D850.
There is a *second LCD screen on the top* of the camera.
My understanding is that there is only one selection wheel on top of the camera.
The camera’s “prism” with the EVF is a bit less angular/smoother when compared to the Sony a7.
I can now confirm that the new 24-70 mirrorless full frame kit lens will indeed be f/4.
I see 8K listed in the technical specifications, but it is hard for me to get the translation – I don’t think it’s for video, maybe 8K time-lapse just like the D850?
The new Nikon mirrorless camera will have a *nice finish and a very comfortable grip*. The overall handling/feeling is supposed to be excellent – this is coming from somebody who is/has tested the camera.
Most likely no built-in flash.
The promo materials should include dancers.
Potential names: Z300 and Z500 (not confirmed, take it with a grain of salt for now).
Initially, three lenses will be announced: 24-70mm f/4, 35mm and 50mm (I think the 35 and 50mm will be f/1.4). There is also talk about a 24mm, but it may come later.
At least one new mirrorless zoom lens will have power zoom for video recording (unconfirmed, could be announced later).
*Two electric AF motors* (not confirmed).
Very sophisticated new F-mount adapter (confirmed by multiple sources).
I was told that Nikon is currently developing a large number of new mirrorless lenses and this is a top priority.
The new mirrorless mount will allow for f/0.95 lenses
"

WOW. The better A7. 
And I´d like to see the better Nikon from Canon ;D


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## nbaresejr (Jul 11, 2018)

I have been reading and following this with great interest. I believe Canon knows they need to hit a homerun with this release and we all know they can, the question is more do they want to. With recent statements from the company higher ups stating they need to innovate more I believe all signs are there for a big splash into this market. 

Just judging off of what Canon currently offers in the APS-C mirrorless market and the price point they are doing it at, I believes gives us all the info we need. The current M50 at $629 packs a punch with features. If we simply go off that I think its pretty safe to assume at a minimum the following specs:

My Best Guess for the FF specs. 

30.4mp- new sensor with BIS (we have seen patents that canon is working on BIS sensors). Dynamic range needs to be about 1 stop better then the current 5d4. This would make it about equal to anything currently out there from Sony.
Digic 8 or 8+ processor
Excellent EVF
DPAF with the fastest AF performance of any Canon mirrorless camera to date (I would say by far)
3.0" Vari Angle LCD Screen
4k, no crop
Wifi, NFC, Bluetooth
5 Axis Image Stabilization (currently on M50)
10 FPS (minimum)-m50 does 9.5

Eye AF (currently on m50)
200+ AF points (m50 has 143)


Depending on how they are adapting the EF lenses to this camera, with specs like that it would be a homerun. I would pay $3000 for that camera.


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## xps (Jul 11, 2018)

nbaresejr said:


> I have been reading and following this with great interest. I believe Canon knows they need to hit a homerun with this release and we all know they can, the question is more do they want to. With recent statements from the company higher ups stating they need to innovate more I believe all signs are there for a big splash into this market.
> 
> Just judging off of what Canon currently offers in the APS-C mirrorless market and the price point they are doing it at, I believes gives us all the info we need. The current M50 at $629 packs a punch with features. If we simply go off that I think its pretty safe to assume at a minimum the following specs:
> 
> ...



IMO the price will be higher, like the 5DIV, as this body is an game changer for canon.
And I do not believe, the fps will be over 10. As the filesize is high and canon needs an extra fast card, which they still do not use in lower than 1D bodies.


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## nbaresejr (Jul 11, 2018)

> IMO the price will be higher, like the 5DIV, as this body is an game changer for canon.
> And I do not believe, the fps will be over 10. As the filesize is high and canon needs an extra fast card, which they still do not use in lower than 1D bodies.



Price may be $3500, I cant see it going over that especially if Nikon is going to launch with d850 like specs for around $3000.

As for cards there is no way this camera will release with SD-USH1 specs. It will prob have 1 SD-UHS2 slot and possibly 2. The 2nd card (has to be a 2nd card on a 5d level camera) could be CF Express. Canon was slammed for using outdated card tech on the 5d4. Wont make that mistake again.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 11, 2018)

nbaresejr said:


> 5 Axis Image Stabilization (currently on M50)
> 10 FPS (minimum)-m50 does 9.5
> 
> Eye AF (currently on m50)
> 200+ AF points (m50 has 143)



a few things.

5 axis VIDEO stabilization is what the M50 has, not image stabilization.
9.5 FPS that the M50 does is also AE/AF locked. it's really 7.5 fps with AF/AE
AF points with a DPAF sensor is relatively meaningless for most AF modes, unlike for Sony,etc. for AI servo,etc you are dealing with groups of pixels out of 20 some odd million different positions.


----------



## xps (Jul 11, 2018)

nbaresejr said:


> > IMO the price will be higher, like the 5DIV, as this body is an game changer for canon.
> > And I do not believe, the fps will be over 10. As the filesize is high and canon needs an extra fast card, which they still do not use in lower than 1D bodies.
> 
> 
> ...



I hope so. But the 5DIV sells very well... So, they could do that again.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 11, 2018)

nbaresejr said:


> > IMO the price will be higher, like the 5DIV, as this body is an game changer for canon.
> > And I do not believe, the fps will be over 10. As the filesize is high and canon needs an extra fast card, which they still do not use in lower than 1D bodies.
> 
> 
> ...



that entirely depends on how many I/O lanes DIGIC has available. Canon wasn't really slammed btw.


----------



## xps (Jul 11, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> nbaresejr said:
> 
> 
> > > IMO the price will be higher, like the 5DIV, as this body is an game changer for canon.
> ...


Isn´t it an question of royalty too? If you build in the newest and fastest technology this is much more expensive


----------



## nbaresejr (Jul 11, 2018)

> a few things.
> 
> 5 axis VIDEO stabilization is what the M50 has, not image stabilization.
> 9.5 FPS that the M50 does is also AE/AF locked. it's really 7.5 fps with AF/AE
> AF points with a DPAF sensor is relatively meaningless for most AF modes, unlike for Sony,etc. for AI servo,etc you are dealing with groups of pixels out of 20 some odd million different positions.



good catch, thanks for clarifying. 



> I hope so. But the 5DIV sells very well... So, they could do that again.



I know, I own one  Its a great Camera and has served me well. I dont shoot images off a spec sheet and have never been limited by the current FPS or card slots. I just think its time to start competing better in the spec sheet war. People like us who are Canon shooters are most likely going to stay no matter what but they need to attract new customers to keep solidly #1. That and im tired from hearing from my Nikon and Sony shooting friends lol.


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

nbaresejr said:


> My Best Guess for the FF specs.
> 
> 30.4mp- new sensor with BIS (we have seen patents that canon is working on BIS sensors). Dynamic range
> 5 Axis Image Stabilization (currently on M50)



I don't see IBIS happening, but I suppose it is possible. That said, The M50 doesn't have true floating sensor IBIS for stills -- I believe it just has _electronic_ IBIS for _video_. Big difference.

And as for needing to hit a homerun, it all depends on with respect to what? It sure as hell isn't a homerun of body specs -- Canon can absolutely compete (if not win) with lower specs than the bad guys. I refer to you [checks glasses] _virtually everything Canon has sold since the 5D2_ as proof of that.

- A


----------



## bdbender4 (Jul 11, 2018)

I can wait and see what happens in full frame; personally much more interested in APS-C. I have had an M5 since they came out, and use it daily.

I recently sold off all my other camera gear, including a FF Canon SLR setup and an extensive Fuji setup. Toward the end of the changeover I used the Fuji XT-20 alongside the M5 for a couple of weeks, and although I wish Canon had a great lens selection like Fuji does, the in-hand experience was all in Canon's favor. And I know how to use Fuji, that was my 6th Fuji body. Fuji still sucks at body firmware, just like they always have, never mind the "Kaizen" baloney.

I will pre-order the M5 update even if it has green teeth and crawls around the floor at night.

What I really want, though, along with many many other folks, are some more EF-M prime lenses, starting with the 32mm f/1.? Something other than consumer zooms!!


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## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> AF points with a DPAF sensor is relatively meaningless for most AF modes, unlike for Sony,etc. for AI servo,etc you are dealing with groups of pixels out of 20 some odd million different positions.



+1. AF Point count is not really a differentiating factor for these non-OVF systems in practical use. 

It's much more a case of:


Is it peppy
Is it accurate, reliable, consistent, etc.
Do you have just about all the frame accessible for focusing
Does it track well

- A


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## nbaresejr (Jul 11, 2018)

> And as for needing to hit a homerun, it all depends on with respect to what? It sure as hell isn't a homerun of body specs -- Canon can absolutely compete (if not win) with lower specs than the bad guys. I refer to you [checks glasses] virtually everything Canon has sold since the 5D2 as proof of that.



In terms of market share I agree with what you are saying. At what point do they stop the bleeding. I have seen many friends ditch there Canon camera for Sony A7rii and newer. I personally know many more who are waiting for this release before they decide to jump ship also. Nikon or Sony taking over #1 in market share is not going to happen any time soon but I think we can all agree we want to see them have some innovative products sooner then later.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 11, 2018)

nbaresejr said:


> In terms of market share I agree with what you are saying. At what point do they stop the bleeding. I have seen many friends ditch there Canon camera for Sony A7rii and newer. I personally know many more who are waiting for this release before they decide to jump ship also. Nikon or Sony taking over #1 in market share is not going to happen any time soon but I think we can all agree we want to see them have some innovative products sooner then later.



Canon isn't losing share. They are plugging away like they always do.

I don't mean to be that 'facts aren't so' head in the sand climate change denier here, but please present me data that Canon is losing share year over year. I don't believe that data exists.

So I have no idea what they need to stop the bleeding of... other than losing fanboy pride over having the most awesome spec sheets? I concede the point there. Sony and Nikon are so crushing it in the spec sheet market.

- A


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## Adrianf (Jul 11, 2018)

I don't get mirrorless. I almost understand MFT where the lenses are smaller too but a 24-70 F2.8 is a big chunk of lens and a FF DSLR looks and feels right on it. Some of these mirrorless jobs look like someone just stuck a cigarette packet on the back of a big-ass lens. I'm a bird photographer most of the time. I joke that my standard lens is 500mm F4. My 5D4 focusses brilliantly with it and feels right in the hand. If mirrorless can out-perform it then fair enough, I'll give it a go, but I feel that is some way off yet.


----------



## rjbray01 (Jul 11, 2018)

amorse said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We think we’re going to get more than a mirrorless version of a two year old camera.
> ...



If they could come up with a 5D IV with a truly awesome EVF (low latency and very high resolution) plus Image stabilization for still shots then I think it would be a great proposition. 

If they could add a hybrid EVF/OVF into the mix that would be stellar.

Hmmm, home come I'm feeling so very, very pessimistic though ?


----------



## rjbray01 (Jul 11, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> nbaresejr said:
> 
> 
> > In terms of market share I agree with what you are saying. At what point do they stop the bleeding. I have seen many friends ditch there Canon camera for Sony A7rii and newer. I personally know many more who are waiting for this release before they decide to jump ship also. Nikon or Sony taking over #1 in market share is not going to happen any time soon but I think we can all agree we want to see them have some innovative products sooner then later.
> ...



I almost never see Sony Alpha cameras out on the streets where I live and we are flooded with tourists all year round.

I think Canon and Nikon still have the momentum in the camera market ...

But that's what it is ... momentum.

If these announcements in September don't offer a compelling competitor product to Sony's Alpha range and any other cameras of a similar spec then I think its inevitable they will lose that momentum. 

At the moment the magazines, shops, online stores and all the other places the general public go to get advice on cameras aren't exactly "slamming" Canon, I guess because they are waiting to see what Canon have up their sleeve.

But ... if the answer is "not a lot" then I think we could see a lot of the main "influencers" in the camera market become quite vocal and articulate about where Canon are sitting these days ... and this would have an impact no doubt.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 11, 2018)

nbaresejr said:


> > And as for needing to hit a homerun, it all depends on with respect to what? It sure as hell isn't a homerun of body specs -- Canon can absolutely compete (if not win) with lower specs than the bad guys. I refer to you [checks glasses] virtually everything Canon has sold since the 5D2 as proof of that.
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of market share I agree with what you are saying. At what point do they stop the bleeding. I have seen many friends ditch there Canon camera for Sony A7rii and newer. I personally know many more who are waiting for this release before they decide to jump ship also. Nikon or Sony taking over #1 in market share is not going to happen any time soon but I think we can all agree we want to see them have some innovative products sooner then later.



Here’s the problem.... we all have a list of friends who have abandoned Canon for Sony (or Nikon), yet Canons market share has risen.... that’s the range of anecdotal data....

Another thing that has been proven repeatedly over the years is that we forum members do not represent the typical Canon buyer, and if anything, we are the opposite of typical.

BTW, welcome to the forum!


----------



## rjbray01 (Jul 11, 2018)

Adrianf said:


> I don't get mirrorless. I almost understand MFT where the lenses are smaller too but a 24-70 F2.8 is a big chunk of lens and a FF DSLR looks and feels right on it. Some of these mirrorless jobs look like someone just stuck a cigarette packet on the back of a big-ass lens. I'm a bird photographer most of the time. I joke that my standard lens is 500mm F4. My 5D4 focusses brilliantly with it and feels right in the hand. If mirrorless can out-perform it then fair enough, I'll give it a go, but I feel that is some way off yet.



Yeap - I bought a Canon M5 and was horrified - especially with large lenses on it. The EVF resolution and latency was terrible, and the tiny was horrible to manhandle. 

I sold it after a few weeks and went back to my 5D IV.

But ... if Canon could get a high-res (call it "retina") EVF with near-zero latency such that it was actually indistinguishable from an OVF, and mounted that into a 5D IV body then ... that would be a fabulous combination.

EVF would allow you to preview your shots - and in particular focus and exposure - before you took them. And, add to the mix the ability to review them through the viewfinder when in bright conditions outdoors ...happy days.

My question is whether Canon can actually come up with that decent EVF - whilst everyone else seems fixated on the mount - which seems to me to be way less important - call me a heretic !!!


----------



## padam (Jul 11, 2018)

People are expecting too much from this very first iteration.
It won't do FF 4k and it won't have IBIS.


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## nbaresejr (Jul 11, 2018)

> Here’s the problem.... we all have a list of friends who have abandoned Canon for Sony (or Nikon), yet Canons market share has risen.... that’s the range of anecdotal data....
> 
> Another thing that has been proven repeatedly over the years is that we forum members do not represent the typical Canon buyer, and if anything, we are the opposite of typical.
> 
> BTW, welcome to the forum!



Thank you! It looks like I joined in 2013 but never posted anything. Just like to read what you are all saying and love the speculation. 

Your right, us enthusiasts(me) or pros account for such a small percentage of Canon buyers. 

In truth all I would really want changed in my 5d4 is and EVF (the what you see is what you get i think is a great thing, especially for a non pro like me). Also a tilt screen, its pretty tough getting the composition and level correct when using my Platypod on the ground. I was very envious of my friend with a D750 and tilt screen when I took this pic. https://www.nickbarese.com/Galleries/Tri-State-Area/i-GPd865w/A. I tried using the phone app and it works good, just wish there was a level on the app. Maybe there is and i cant find it!


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## ahsanford (Jul 12, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> At the moment the magazines, shops, online stores and all the other places the general public go to get advice on cameras aren't exactly "slamming" Canon, I guess because they are waiting to see what Canon have up their sleeve.



Narrative #1: Canon is so screwed. Have you seen the specs of the [insert new Sony or Nikon camera here]? They had better respond.

Narrative #2: Canon's only doing okay because _everyone is waiting for them to respond_ to Sony with a super mirrorless camera. If they what they roll out doesn't cure cancer, have perfectly clean ISO 25,600 files or nail eyeballs with the AF while shooting 20 fps on a floating IBIS sensor, Canon will be the next Kodak.

(RJ, you didn't say those exact words, forgive me. But you get my point.)

The narrative is consistent with Canon either being outperformed or failing to meet spec sheet / feature set expectations. And Canon yawns and keeps on selling.

Don't get me wrong, they 100% could fail to meet everyone's high expectations. I'm just saying that they are legendary for letting you down on specs yet somehow finding people to buy these things. I contend that the line items _not_ on the spec sheet -- native EF compatibility, reputation for quality / reliability, service, ergonomics, interface, etc. -- might be the reason why.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Jul 12, 2018)

nbaresejr said:


> > Here’s the problem.... we all have a list of friends who have abandoned Canon for Sony (or Nikon), yet Canons market share has risen.... that’s the range of anecdotal data....
> >
> > Another thing that has been proven repeatedly over the years is that we forum members do not represent the typical Canon buyer, and if anything, we are the opposite of typical.
> >
> ...



to be honest, I'm now only an enthusiast and I'm perfectly happy with what Canon has done on the EF-M lineup. While there's minor annoyances with the ecosystem, it's more than good enough for my current travel limitations. I would have to spend a considerable amount more for a Fuji or Sony system that would shoot the same.

Would I buy a full frame mirrorless, maybe, maybe not. the lenses will be alot larger than the EF-M lenses, and considerably more expensive.

Just because people are enthusiasts doesn't necessarily mean they are thinking of jumping ship and are not content with what is there already.


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## Treyarnon (Jul 12, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> The narrative is consistent with Canon either being outperformed or failing to meet spec sheet / feature set expectations. And Canon yawns and keeps on selling.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, they 100% could fail to meet everyone's high expectations. I'm just saying that they are legendary for letting you down on specs yet somehow finding people to buy these things. I contend that the line items _not_ on the spec sheet -- native EF compatibility, reputation for quality / reliability, service, ergonomics, interface, etc. -- might be the reason why.
> 
> - A



The spec sheet is one thing - but if people see great photographers taking amazing shots with a particular camera - that's the best advert you are going to get. If the best photographers are out there shooting on Canon's - then Canons will sell.


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## Ozarker (Jul 12, 2018)

Guess I'd better save for a 5D Mark IV DSLR as there may not be a Mark V. I really like my Mark III. Do not like my Olympus much, but Canon may just hit one out of the park... again. Will wait and see.


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## hmatthes (Jul 12, 2018)

All I want is a Canon 5d class camera that uses EF lenses (I have a collection) but handles like my Leica Q -- superb EVF, Superb manual focusing assist, IQ that is uncompromised, bullet-proof construction.
We are photographers, not menu diving computer geeks.
Few of us need more than 5~8 frames per second. Flippy/Tilty: Nice/not necessary
IBIS: Huh, I've been hand holding for 50+ years. And I own nice tripods.
All this new fluff gets in the way of true art. Get over it!
I want my EVF to show me EXACTLY what the sensor sees -- as I chose aperture, exp. comp., white balance...
HUH? No OVF cn do that.
Come on Canon, give me the 5DIV sensor with a EVF as good as the Leica Q or SL... with EF lens support.
then I'm done, and I'm writing my check...


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## fullstop (Jul 12, 2018)

i think sept announcements are Not FF but "only" EOS M5 II plus possibly M6 II and EF-M 32/1.4. It will get M5/M6 to current M50 tech: Face/Eye AF, Digic 8 + somewhat better video. not more, typical "Canon bare minimum, underwhelm us"-update, as so often. 

Canon FF MILC system - not sure by when Canon gets their act together. they sure will start to feel the heat if the 2 Nikons MILCs plus starting Z-lens lineup (and roadmap!?) are good. Mirrorless 5D4 with same sensor and slightly better EVF and slightly less crippled 4k video will definitely not cut it. otoh IBIS not very likely with Canon, although if Nikon does it ... who knows. 

mirrorless lens mount is the most important question/decision. it will determine "envelope of possibilities" for Canon MILC ecosystem for next 30 years. As Canon critical as I am, i don't expect them to fumble this. Canon got it "really right" with EF mount for FF (D)SLRs back in 1987. And FD mount before was really right for non-AF SLRs. 

i expect "EF-X" to be "really right" again for mirrorless, allowing for anything from f/0.9 lenses at the "extreme end" *and* very compact, decent, affordable lenses in the most frequently used focal length range (ca. 16-135 mm). extra-wide throat width/clear diameter + moderately short FFD. dont think they will go as short as 16mm only (rumoured Nikon mount). but from lack of surfaced lens patents i don't think launch is "imminent" yet. "smells more" like feb 2019 to me. 

re. number of AF points on DP-AF sensors. It does count! Very much so: for selection of where exactly user wants AF system to focus or start tracking. EOS M50 with 99 (143 only with 3 select lenses atm) is much better than previous EOS M implementation (including M5/6) with only 43 AF fields. 392 (Sony) or 400+ (Nikon rumor) would be welcome. DP-AF with "20 million AF points" is very flugfy marketing bla bla. it may help with tracking and face/eye AF, but it dies not help per se, when you want to select a specific, precise point in the frane to (start) focus at.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 12, 2018)

Same as MkIV in all regards but mirrorless? I'm not buying it. I'll wait for the next version. I've already got MkIV and mirrorlessness isn't crucial for me. Silent shutter is a plus but again not too crucial.

Same as MkIV but with EVF, tilt screen, higher DR and more pixels (say 36Mp), EF mount compatible? - I'm probably buying. I don't care much about video features.

Not EF compatible (or say not compatible with all my lenses)? - I'm probably switching to the next Nikon mirrorless until it's not too late, because EF glass will be losing resale value. But I hope Canon won't betray us owners of EF glass.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 12, 2018)

fullstop said:


> i think sept announcements are Not FF but "only" EOS M5 II plus possibly M6 II and EF-M 32/1.4.



It doesn't match the rumor that says "EOS 5D Mark IV in a mirrorless body”


----------



## scyrene (Jul 12, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> If these announcements in September don't offer a compelling competitor product to Sony's Alpha range and any other cameras of a similar spec then I think its inevitable they will lose that momentum.



With the greatest of respect to you, people have been coming on these forums for years saying 'if Canon' don't do something soon they'll start to lose sales', and it's never happened. Why is *now* the crucial time? Each manufacturer has had its basic strategy for years - some characterise it as, Sony innovative/desperate to get a product to sell well, Canon conservative/risk averse - and we haven't seen a seismic shift in sales. Nor has the 'coming mirrorless revolution', as some have imagined it, changed the scene at more than a glacial pace.

I think from the data we have, anouncing glitzy, amazing-sounding products and getting praise from reviewers absolutely isn't the way to be a market leader, in this sector at least.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 12, 2018)

padam said:


> People are expecting too much from this very first iteration.



I think this is probably the right way to look at it. Look how far the M-series has come since its first release.


----------



## BillB (Jul 12, 2018)

scyrene said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > If these announcements in September don't offer a compelling competitor product to Sony's Alpha range and any other cameras of a similar spec then I think its inevitable they will lose that momentum.
> ...



One of the big ongoing questions for the last several years has been whether internet buzz can have much impact on camera sales, particularly at the higher price points. Magic numbers like DR or fps or 4K capabilities are great for revving up the buzz, but how much do they really drive sales? How many people actually pay several thousand dollars for a camera without thinking carefully about what they want and need? This time there may once again be a fair amount of negative buzz about Canon missing the boat, just as there was with the 6DII and the 5DIV. Buzz may influence some early adopters, but how many early adopters are there at these price points? Many, if not most, people at price points north of $2000-$3000 already have a camera they are fairly happy with, so they tend to think for a while before they buy, if they decide to buy at all.


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## Kit. (Jul 12, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> But that's what it is ... momentum.
> 
> If these announcements in September don't offer a compelling competitor product to Sony's Alpha range and any other cameras of a similar spec then I think its inevitable they will lose that momentum.


Oh, see what I found:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=92.msg1023#msg1023


----------



## fullstop (Jul 12, 2018)

scyrene said:


> padam said:
> 
> 
> > People are expecting too much from this very first iteration.
> ...



it unfortunately has become "the Canon way of looking at it". 

Each iteration of their cameras since about 2008 [when they lost leadership in CMOS sensors] matches roughly the specs that previous gen product should already have had to be fully competitive in IQ, functionality and performance. 

eg: 
* 5D3 had AF system that definitely should have been on 5D2 already 
* 5D4 got a sensor that would have been about competitive at time 5D3 was launched
* EOS M3 had specs that would have been about competitive with "best in class" at the time when original EOS M was launched [and failed in market due to stupid Canon demanding an MSRP of 899 USD for it; so they had to firesale it at 299 ... ;D] 
* EOS M5 should have had M50 sensor / DP-AF 
* EOS 6D II ... oh well. It might have been roughly competitive at time 6D was launched 
etc. etc.


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## Kit. (Jul 12, 2018)

fullstop said:


> fully competitive


There is no such thing.


----------



## BillB (Jul 12, 2018)

It seems as if Canon will roll out two fullframe mirrorless cameras fairly soon. Each of these cameras will tradeoff among several features including performance, size and weight and price. For minimizing size, weight and price, full frame cannot match aps-c. Therefore, the two mirrorless FF models need to provide additional performance compared to aps-c models while compromising on size weight and price.

What performance levels will Canon achieve with these two models, and what compromises will they make in size, weight and price? One extreme might be some sort of "Super M", a scaled up M50 with a fullframe sensor, which would be as small, light and inexpensive as possible. At the other end, there might be a performance monster, something like a 5DIV with an EVF, a DIGIC 8 processor and a new sensor, and whatever size weight and and price is necessary to max performance.

One of the models may be toward the Super M end of what is possible, with the other being more of a performance monster. Interesting times. It's nice to be sitting on the sidelines with my 5DIV.


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## Don Haines (Jul 12, 2018)

If it isn’t what I want and being sold at a loss then Canon is *******.


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## edoorn (Jul 12, 2018)

I'm not sure Canon can afford to release a lack lustre ff mirrorless. Sony has raised the bar to a new standard and the Nikon offerings (mind you; this is Nikon's first serious attempt at a mirrorless, if you ignore the 1 camera's) seem to be on par with that. Anything less and I'm quite sure a significant people interested in mirrorless FF will consider switching and lose confidence. So they need it to be a very good and worthy camera. They've had experience now with several M bodies so this should be no limitation.


----------



## BillB (Jul 12, 2018)

fullstop said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > padam said:
> ...



So Canon should have rolled out the 5DIII AF in 2008? And the 6D should have had a dual pixel sensor (albeit without on chip ADC), along with a tilty-floppy screen and a touch screen interface in 2012? I know some people are into counterfactual history, but this is silly.


----------



## rjbray01 (Jul 12, 2018)

scyrene said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > If these announcements in September don't offer a compelling competitor product to Sony's Alpha range and any other cameras of a similar spec then I think its inevitable they will lose that momentum.
> ...



The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.

The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.

I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.


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## fullstop (Jul 12, 2018)

yes. touch-sensitive "vari-angle" LCDs were already invented and implemented in Canon EOS 650D//Rebel T4i announced June 8, 2012. 



> The EOS 650D also becomes the first SLR from any manufacturer to feature a touchscreen. This is of the capacitive (contact sensitive) rather than resistive (pressure sensitive) type, behaving like that of a typical smartphone. In Live View and Movie modes the screen can be used to specify the point of focus and (optionally) release the shutter. It also supports iPhone-like multi-touch and gestures.



But hell no, the 6D [announced after 650D on September 17, 2012] could of course not feature such an "advanced" feature. It had to be reserved for the otherwise useless 6D Mk. II years later. This is exactly the kind of marketing nerfing that is so irksome with Canon.


----------



## kiwiengr (Jul 12, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.
> 
> The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.
> 
> I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.



Rubbish... one has a good smart phone (S8)... one has an excellent DSLR (5D4). I don't use the camera to make phone calls.. and the reverse option applies.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 12, 2018)

fullstop said:


> otoh IBIS not very likely with Canon



I think it’s just a matter of time. Maybe not the next released camera or two, but they will eventually implement it.


----------



## Mikehit (Jul 12, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Each iteration of their cameras since about 2008 [when they lost leadership in CMOS sensors] matches roughly the specs that previous gen product should already have had to be fully competitive in IQ, functionality and performance.



You seem to have an odd definition of 'competitive'. Everything Canon has done has outsold the Sony equivalent so it would suggest that for the customer, everything they have done has been 'competitive'.


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## BillB (Jul 12, 2018)

fullstop said:


> yes. touch-sensitive "vari-angle" LCDs were already invented and implemented in Canon EOS 650D//Rebel T4i announced June 8, 2012.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So Canon was state of the art in touchscreen in 2012. They were state of the art in 2017. But you think the should have been 2017 state of the art in 2012. Got it.


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## rjbray01 (Jul 12, 2018)

kiwiengr said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.
> ...



that "reverse option" being "I don't use my phone to take pictures"

hmm ... not sure you are in the majority there


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## Kit. (Jul 12, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> The reason now is different is because practically every potential camera buyer is already carrying an outstanding camera built into their mobile phone.
> 
> The camera sales market is shrinking : with increasingly complex camera functions being addressed by the phone capabilities.
> 
> I would expect fewer MILC sales to translate to fewer suppliers : survival of the fittest.


Moving a camera design toward a smartphone camera design is a sure way to _lose_ competition against smartphones.


----------



## Don Haines (Jul 12, 2018)

fullstop said:


> yes. touch-sensitive "vari-angle" LCDs were already invented and implemented in Canon EOS 650D//Rebel T4i announced June 8, 2012.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Canon is a conservative company. If you want to have state of the art, they are the wrong company to get your camera from. You would be far better off to sell all your gear and get Panasonic, after all, they are "slightly ahead of out time".....

Seriously though, companies like Panasonic are going to introduce new features and gadgetry before a company like Canon will. And be prepared to upgrade on every model release to make sure that you have the best and newest....

All Canon has to offer are cameras where they have taken the time to make sure everything works properly, and a very good lens lineup. Who wants a camera that they can depend on instead of the latest sensor-shift pixel shuffling interpretation... No pro wants a simple unit that "just works no matter what" or the best service in the industry...or the kind of stability where they can take the lens off of their 20D, pop out the battery, and use both on the latest release...

Seriously, Canon is a conservative company......


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## sdz (Jul 12, 2018)

edoorn said:


> I'm not sure Canon can afford to release a lack lustre ff mirrorless. Sony has raised the bar to a new standard and the Nikon offerings (mind you; this is Nikon's first serious attempt at a mirrorless, if you ignore the 1 camera's) seem to be on par with that. Anything less and I'm quite sure a significant people interested in mirrorless FF will consider switching and lose confidence. So they need it to be a very good and worthy camera. They've had experience now with several M bodies so this should be no limitation.



This. Canon sells cameras and lenses, but it is losing the image quality race at the high end save for Canon color, at which it excels. So, Canon faces a technical challange. Dropping the mirror is less important than achieving better sensor tech and on camera computing power.


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## bergstrom (Jul 12, 2018)

what worries em is the "at least one mirrorless camera will be announced". Can they not release the BIG one and focus all their attention on that and blow away the specs of the sony a7iii and be the camera that people can't stop talking about. Or am I just asking too much?


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## amorse (Jul 12, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> kiwiengr said:
> 
> 
> > rjbray01 said:
> ...


I think there is a considerable difference in intent with phone photography. 

I have a reasonably good smartphone and a 5D IV as my main camera. Personally, I never use my smartphone for artistic photography - I've just been far too spoiled by the low light performance of a proper DSLR. In my experience, most (not all) phone photos fall apart in low light and with any sort of magnification or pixel peeping. For now, I really only use my phone's camera to take the odd selfie with friends at events, or take pictures of my car at the airport so I know where I parked - anything where quality isn't what I'm looking for: only convenience. 

I think this is why the compact market has diminished - a phone camera is very well suited to those uses, but as soon as there are specific quality demands a proper ILC is hard to beat. I hate to use my own anecdotal evidence, but I have seen quite a number of people who have purchased up-market ILCs because they got into photography using their phone, and then started seeking out some of the benefits provided by a more advanced camera. If anything, I would suspect that the camera phone market has largely killed the compact camera market but pushed remaining buyers up market into ILCs. 

Sure, creative software and pre-packaged formulas for specific photo effects are now accessible to smartphone users to create an ILC-like result, but at its core this is contrary to the value of ILCs. ILCs allow the user to create *whatever* they can imagine (for those that are willing to learn how), while smartphone effects only replicate a *finite* number of pre-packaged things users might like to create. ILCs give you control to create anything, while smartphones give you a menu of things they can deliver. There is value in both propositions to be fair, but neither can replace the other currently.


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## amorse (Jul 12, 2018)

bergstrom said:


> what worries em is the "at least one mirrorless camera will be announced". Can they not release the BIG one and focus all their attention on that and blow away the specs of the sony a7iii and be the camera that people can't stop talking about. Or am I just asking too much?


I don't think you're asking too much, but also I don't think that is in line with Canon's business model, so I don't think they will do it. I don't think Canon wants to be competing on specs or else they'd have to re-release gear very rapidly - i.e. Sony releases a new camera and now Canon has to respond right away? That's an expensive proposition with little benefit to Canon. Their current business model has put them in the lead, so I doubt they'd stray far from what they're already doing.


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## fullstop (Jul 12, 2018)

bergstrom said:


> what worries em is the "at least one mirrorless camera will be announced". Can they not release the BIG one and focus all their attention on that and blow away the specs of the sony a7iii and be the camera that people can't stop talking about. Or am I just asking too much?



not for me. And not by the standards Canon customers should apply towards a supplier. 

But ... according to a few forum members here, I guess you are asking way too much of Canon. "Canon is a conservative company" describes a fact - but often it also smells of "condoning/appreciating/excusing that". 

Especially when it should not be technically or economically "impossible" for Canon to "blow away Sony A7 III specs". Well, to really get on par with those Sony sensors, Canon might have to procure a new sensor fab, but many of the Sony specs would be really easy to match or surpass. Starting with a smart choice of lens mount parameters for their FF mirrorless system. On that one I have full confidence in Canon, on most other areas ... not so. They are an ULTRA-conservative company and worse, they have been largely resting on their laurels for the last 10 years.


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## rjbray01 (Jul 12, 2018)

amorse said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiengr said:
> ...



It might not be much longer until mobile phones contain arrays of lenses, which will do for their cameras what arrays of radio telescopes did for astronomy ... 

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/research-news/optical-phased-array-replaces-camera-lens-2017-06/

To quote the article "Once scaled up, this technology can make lenses and thick cameras obsolete."


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## bokehmon22 (Jul 12, 2018)

nbaresejr said:


> My Best Guess for the FF specs.
> 
> 30.4mp- new sensor with BIS (we have seen patents that canon is working on BIS sensors). Dynamic range needs to be about 1 stop better then the current 5d4. This would make it about equal to anything currently out there from Sony.
> Digic 8 or 8+ processor
> ...



Everything sounds good. I'm more cautious about 1 stop DR. Maybe 1/2 stop improvement and no IBIS.
4K with lesser crop and less bitrate and color depth and more flexible file format.
I also expect EF compatible mount either via adapater (new mount) or native.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 12, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > rjbray01 said:
> ...




Light is supposedly working on a phone. Their L16 camera wasn’t exactly a resounding success, maybe they’ll have more by pairing it with cellular farcebook and twitter connectivity.


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## amorse (Jul 12, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > I think there is a considerable difference in intent with phone photography.
> ...



No doubt technology will keep moving and current formats will not likely hold back the tide. As it stands today, and for at least the next few years, there is a distinct gap between what a phone can do and what an ILC can do - and both are targeting different market segments. I'm confident that this won't always be true, but it is today. My only point was that right now and for the next little while there will certainly be a market for dedicated cameras, especially those which provide functionality not currently available on a phone.


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## stochasticmotions (Jul 12, 2018)

Personally, I can't wait to see what Canon has up its sleeve...also interested in what Nikon is going to put out there as well. Each of these companies is going to show us something that will excite some photographers and will disappoint others, but it will be good to see the direction each is wanting to take us.

It has taken Sony numerous generations of changes to get to the point that the cameras they have now work well and provide some unique things and will take another couple of generations to get things that Canon and Nikon learned years ago about how photographers work efficiently.

If Canon can take the excellent dual pixel autofocus they have and be able to drive their lenses close to as quickly as the latest Sony telephoto do for subject tracking, I will be very impressed. I doubt that will happen right away but I think that is more to do with how the current lens hardware and software is designed to be driven rather than limits of what Canon can do with the new camera.

The bigger dark horse in the race is Nikon, they have not yet shown on sensor autofocus that is anywhere close to Canon or Sony for video or tracking. Nikon's latest SLRs are excellent but they are a mystery as to where they will come into this market this time.


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## ahsanford (Jul 12, 2018)

stochasticmotions said:


> The bigger dark horse in the race is Nikon, they have not yet shown on sensor autofocus that is anywhere close to Canon or Sony for video or tracking. Nikon's latest SLRs are excellent but they are a mystery as to where they will come into this market this time.



Nikon also has the Ghost of Tiny Mount Diameter's Past past to contend with. They couldn't support autofocusing f/1.2 lenses as Canon did, and Canon folks constantly reminded them of that. So I'm not surprised at all that Nikonians are pride-wise geeked about the prospect of these f/0.95 lenses that have been rumored -- I surely wouldn't want to have to carry those lenses, though! 

Sony is (IMHO) a far more clear and present danger to Nikon than Canon. Canon is the bigger target, surely, but it has been preparing for FF mirrorless with core tech for some time. Nikon is (on paper) less prepared to offer a competitive FF mirrorless offering. Further, Nikon's been running with stellar Sony sensors forever, and the last 5-10 years have shown that sensors don't flip marketshare. Nikon needs core technology upgrades (liveview, video, something resembling DPAF) far more than they need to shut up the f/1.2 boo-birds. 

So even if they go with a spec beast of a mirrorless D850 as rumors imply, _if it handles poorly, has iffy AF,_ etc. they will be in some serious trouble. 

- A


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## rrcphoto (Jul 12, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> stochasticmotions said:
> 
> 
> > The bigger dark horse in the race is Nikon, they have not yet shown on sensor autofocus that is anywhere close to Canon or Sony for video or tracking. Nikon's latest SLRs are excellent but they are a mystery as to where they will come into this market this time.
> ...



the 52 / .9 is 10 inches long.


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## ahsanford (Jul 12, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > stochasticmotions said:
> ...



Again: No one said (a) that lens is ever happening or (b) a f/0.9 lens was a good idea.

But fanboys will lord that over Canon ad infinitum. Or at least until this next mirrorless venture is as big a disaster as the Nikon 1 was and Canon can buy Nikon. 8)

- A


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## ethanz (Jul 12, 2018)

I'd really like an f/0.9 50mm lens. I think its a great idea.

 ;D


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## rrcphoto (Jul 12, 2018)

ethanz said:


> I'd really like an f/0.9 50mm lens. I think its a great idea.



10 inch long 52mm prime? oh okayyyy


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## ahsanford (Jul 12, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> ethanz said:
> 
> 
> > I'd really like an f/0.9 50mm lens. I think its a great idea.
> ...



There certainly is a market for it -- but it's not remotely a practical, daily driver sort of instrument. 

Meanwhile, Canon gets you an f/1.2 the size of a baseball. That lens is at half the weddings I attend. #doublegaussftw

- A


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## stochasticmotions (Jul 12, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> stochasticmotions said:
> 
> 
> > The bigger dark horse in the race is Nikon, they have not yet shown on sensor autofocus that is anywhere close to Canon or Sony for video or tracking. Nikon's latest SLRs are excellent but they are a mystery as to where they will come into this market this time.
> ...



I have to agree, especially since I doubt Sony will provide Nikon with any of their sensors with pdaf (they haven't so far). 

Sony have one current ace up their sleeve with the A9 stacked sensor tech, but they do have to concentrate on ensuring that they don't only concentrate on sensor to improve each generation. So far they have done so.

Both Canon and Sony also have significant history in video and some of that is useful in producing good mirrorless cameras. 

Canon's reputation for reliable cameras, and nearly no camera releases with significant problems will continue to ensure that people will continue to go with them.

For me the tipping point for which camera system I use most often for nature/bird photography was the Sony A7III, 100-400GM and when needed the 1.4 teleconverter. That was the first time that autofocus was faster, more reliable, and had usable burst rates and a reasonable buffer. Of course that is comparing to a 5DIII which is significantly older and 5Ds which was never built for burst shooting. If Canon can come close to matching A7 capabilities with the typical quality of a 5D body I would likely buy it even at new 5d prices.


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## admiralburns (Jul 12, 2018)

I have a 6D. I want to stay with Canon. 

All I really need is a 6D2 with a headphone jack. Mirrorless / more compact would be nice, but I need a stinking headphone jack. There are a lot of "nice to have" features which I would enjoy, including 4K and eye tracking. But how Canon saw it fitting to make the 6D2 more video-friendly, but not include a headphone jack, which is even on the 80D is absurd. There is no reasonable excuse.

I've been holding out a LONG time...just gimme a jack. I don't see waiting any longer than the end of this year. This is past the point of ridiculous, and has nothing to do with innovation. 

The A7III is sub $2k. It has a headphone jack (MUST have IMO), plus a dozen or so other "nice to have" items. More tempting by the day, even knowing the downsides. I hate this upselling gamesmanship, it's detestable.


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## scyrene (Jul 12, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > rjbray01 said:
> ...



I don't fully understand your point, can you expand? Why is the shrinking of the overall camera market due to smartphones the reason Canon must absolutely release a world beating (however defined) FF mirrorless camera in the next few months?

They could release the best (once again, however you wish to define it) camera ever and phones would continue to eat away at the lower end of the market. A FF mirrorless camera isn't competing with phones, it's competing with other FF MILCs and FF DSLRs (and to a lesser extent, APS-C and mefium format).

But apologies if I'm misunderstanding you.


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## scyrene (Jul 12, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> I have a 6D. I want to stay with Canon.
> 
> All I really need is a 6D2 with a headphone jack. Mirrorless / more compact would be nice, but I need a stinking headphone jack. There are a lot of "nice to have" features which I would enjoy, including 4K and eye tracking. But how Canon saw it fitting to make the 6D2 more video-friendly, but not include a headphone jack, which is even on the 80D is absurd. There is no reasonable excuse.
> 
> ...



This is what we call "off topic" :


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## RGF (Jul 12, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> If they just took the mirror box out of the 5Div body and added a good EVF, I think I would get one .... but probably not what is coming.



5D M4 is 3 or 4 year old technology. That would be let down. They need to do more than just convert the 5D M4 to an EVIL camera. If they don't Nikon will have a superior camera again.


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## dak723 (Jul 12, 2018)

RGF said:


> BeenThere said:
> 
> 
> > If they just took the mirror box out of the 5Div body and added a good EVF, I think I would get one .... but probably not what is coming.
> ...



It would be a let down to a lot of folks on this forum who don't seem to get that camera tech has not changed mush - if at all in the factors that matter - since the 5D IV was released. The 5D IV is - and will be for many years to come - a great camera. What features exactly are you looking for that has been released since the 5D IV was released?


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## Don Haines (Jul 12, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> I have a 6D. I want to stay with Canon.
> 
> All I really need is a 6D2 with a headphone jack. Mirrorless / more compact would be nice, but I need a stinking headphone jack. There are a lot of "nice to have" features which I would enjoy, including 4K and eye tracking. But how Canon saw it fitting to make the 6D2 more video-friendly, but not include a headphone jack, which is even on the 80D is absurd. There is no reasonable excuse.
> 
> ...



A headphone jack would have been nice..... but what really bugs me about the 6D2 is that it has no headphone jack AND despite the fact that it has Bluetooth, you can not use a Bluetooth headset with it I have never been one of those people who say "stupid Canon", but in this case they deserve to be called so.


Bluetooth has been around long enough to be mainstream. Cars have it. phones have it. Computers, laptops, and tablets have it..... and all of these things talk to Bluetooth headsets..... heck, then even talk to Bluetooth hearing aids! So why can't I listen to a video playback from a Canon DSLR over Bluetooth?


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## rjbray01 (Jul 12, 2018)

scyrene said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



There we will have to differ - it is my belief that new mobile phones do already present a challenge to the full frame market and the gap will close relentlessly.

Whilst the world is experiencing a massive growth in the middle classes, driven by increase in wealth in developing countries we are seeing an end to the growth in sales of FF cameras ... Which represents a huge reversal from what should be happening.

There is an enormous growth in travel for instance.

The FF market has ssentially decelerated and next comes shrinkage.

The larger the market the greater the number of suppliers due to economies of scale.

As a market shrinks, fewer suppliers can earn a profit from such economies of scale.

Those who survive will do so on merit, not from living on their laurels. 

Whereas a rising tide carries everyone, a falling tide leaves some marooned.

In an innovate-or-survive climate such as we are now entering I personally find it difficult to imagine that an ultra-conservative strategy of remaining behind the competition is a sure fire winner.


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## Don Haines (Jul 12, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > rjbray01 said:
> ...




But what if the customer is looking for a reasonably priced camera that is easy to use? The vast bulk of people out there are buying Rebels and M cameras and most of them are left in the automatic mode. All these things that we forum users fixate about mean nothing to the average user. These people don't care about what mount Canon is going to use for a FF mirrorless, which codec video is shot with, or how to properly set up the cases in the AF system...


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## Tugela (Jul 12, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...




Digic 7 is the stills version of the DV5, Digic 8 is the stills version of DV6, so actually Digic 8 is a step down in video capability. 


Digic 7 could do H.264 encoding of 4K, but it would overheat if it tried. Digic 8 has a more basic encoder to keep the thermal envelope in check, thereby allowing 4K in consumer cameras.


My guess is that the flagship FF MILC would probably be doing mjpeg 4K since that is better quality than the H.264 4K coming out of the Digic 8. It will not be competitive with the likes of Sony and Panasonic if they go with H.264.


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## ahsanford (Jul 12, 2018)

RGF said:


> 5D M4 is 3 or 4 year old technology. That would be let down.



The 5D4 has been on the market for less than two years. It is not even halfway through its lifecycle.

- A


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## rjbray01 (Jul 12, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Absolutely I couldn't agree more 

Whereas as few years ago someone who wanted a reasonably priced camera which is easy to use would have bought Canon / Nikon today they will buy IOS / Android ... 

They certainly won't be snobby about the quality of the software-generated bokeh background blur or night-time bokeh balls for their portrait pics or limited ability to pixel peep ... All of which will get better and better as 5G comms and online AWS/Azure cloud processing becomes available for even greater software effects


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## fullstop (Jul 12, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> But what if the customer is looking for a reasonably priced camera that is easy to use? The vast bulk of people out there are buying Rebels and M cameras and most of them are left in the automatic mode. All these things that we forum users fixate about mean nothing to the average user. These people don't care about what mount Canon is going to use for a FF mirrorless, which codec video is shot with, or how to properly set up the cases in the AF system...



lens mount matters, because they WILL will care how big, heavy, clunky and conspicuous their gear is. 

And in 2018 camera users should not have to care about fiddling around with "AF use cases" deep down in some custom settings menu. Those custom settings are just testimony that Canon is not able to build cameras that are AI-smart enough to figure out motion & tracking on their own by analyzing the scene in real-time. 

Buyers like me want many small, pinpoint AF points all over frame [mirrorless!] and precisely select starting point for AF tracking [if subject in motion is detected there]. Up to now, no Canon camera is delivering what "AI-AF mode" in all of them promises. And we want Face-detect and Eye-detect AF. So far, only in one "entry level" Canon mirrorless cam [M50] ... in mid 2018. That's beyond "conservative". It is just plain stupid.


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## Don Haines (Jul 12, 2018)

fullstop said:


> lens mount matters, because they WILL will care how big, heavy, clunky and conspicuous their gear is.



Yes, lens mount matters. Most will buy a M sized camera. There is no way that a FF system will compete against a crop system for size, price, or convenience.....

The FF market is for those who rate quality above all else. Any compromise in image quality or the ergonomics (space for controls) will not be tolerated by the bulk of that market.


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## fullstop (Jul 12, 2018)

Not only. I don't care about "ultimate technical IQ", but still have a FF system and want to consolidate all my gear to only one FF system that is not a lot larger than crop sensor-systems. Sensor size does not scale very well with gear size. Look at Pana GH5 - big camera, small sensor. Or Oly M1 - same. Or Fuji XT-2. I want exactly the opposite. Compact camera, compact lenses, FF sensor. Because that allows me to do anything I could do with a crop system - and then some.


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## Don Haines (Jul 12, 2018)

fullstop said:


> And in 2018 camera users should not have to care about fiddling around with "AF use cases" deep down in some custom settings menu. Those custom settings are just testimony that Canon is not able to build cameras that are AI-smart enough to figure out motion & tracking on their own by analyzing the scene in real-time.
> 
> Buyers like me want many small, pinpoint AF points all over frame [mirrorless!] and precisely select starting point for AF tracking [if subject in motion is detected there]. Up to now, no Canon camera is delivering what "AI-AF mode" in all of them promises. And we want Face-detect and Eye-detect AF. So far, only in one "entry level" Canon mirrorless cam [M50] ... in mid 2018. That's beyond "conservative". It is just plain stupid.



What you have touched on here is one of the best reasons to go mirrorless. With the mirror down, a DSLR can do none of this. I would hope that as newer mirrorless cameras roll out, that they will all have this feature. That said, although there are phones and P/S cameras out there with this feature, I have yet to see anyone use it.... most cameras spend their life at “factory default”. Now as for us forum fanatics, I can easily see it as a well used feature....


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## Don Haines (Jul 12, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Not only. I don't care about "ultimate technical IQ", but still have a FF system and want to consolidate all my gear to only one FF system that is not a lot larger than crop sensor-systems. Sensor size does not scale very well with gear size. Look at Pana GH5 - big camera, small sensor. Or Oly M1 - same. Or Fuji XT-2. I want exactly the opposite. Compact camera, compact lenses, FF sensor. Because that allows me to do anything I could do with a crop system - and then some.



I’m hoping that they use a 6D sized body...... particularly with the pancakes, it is a compact tool..... it makes my 7D2 feel like a brick in comparison.... and if one really wants he ultimate in glass, put away the F2.8 lens and mount a F1.4....


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 13, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> ...we are seeing an end to the growth in sales of FF cameras ...
> 
> The FF market has ssentially decelerated and next comes shrinkage.



Manufacturers don't publish model-specific data. CIPA doesn't report ILC shipments broken down by sensor size. May I ask...on what data are you basing your statements above?


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## jd7 (Jul 13, 2018)

fullstop said:


> And in 2018 camera users should not have to care about fiddling around with "AF use cases" deep down in some custom settings menu. Those custom settings are just testimony that Canon is not able to build cameras that are AI-smart enough to figure out motion & tracking on their own by analyzing the scene in real-time.
> 
> Buyers like me want many small, pinpoint AF points all over frame [mirrorless!] and precisely select starting point for AF tracking [if subject in motion is detected there]. Up to now, no Canon camera is delivering what "AI-AF mode" in all of them promises. And we want Face-detect and Eye-detect AF. So far, only in one "entry level" Canon mirrorless cam [M50] ... in mid 2018. That's beyond "conservative". It is just plain stupid.



Obviously that is fine if it is what you want, but for my part it is not what I want. Sure, I want good AF tracking and things like face-detect and eye-detect are useful in the right situation, but different AF cases are useful in different situations. I wouldn't want to simply leave it to the camera to decide how it is going to operate in a given situation - I would rather have some control over that, so I would want the AF system to be at least as customisable as it is in a DSLR. I don't have a problem with going into menus to set what I want.


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## fullstop (Jul 13, 2018)

no problem, if the options are in some menu. But i really want "AI-AF" to *reliably and precisely* do the job. If it did, I would never use "One-Shot" or "Servo-AF" or any of the custom options. Unfortunately it does not, so everybody is forced to fiddle around with those AF custom settings. And I believe, many (most?) other buyers would prefer it too. 

But let's see what AF functionality, performance and precision we get in Canon FF mirrorless.


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## rjbray01 (Jul 13, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > ...we are seeing an end to the growth in sales of FF cameras ...
> ...



Here is what looks like a sincere attempt to estimate the sales ... 

https://www.pointsinfocus.com/blog/2017/05/assessment-us-full-frame-camera-market-prompted-sonys-press-release/

Which contains the table 

Estimated Full Frame ICL Shipments
2016 Avg 28,410 – 37,881	
Jan 2017 14,153 – 18.453

This article reports CIPA ILC camera sales down 81% 2010-2016 .. 

https://www.diyphotography.net/camera-sales-report-2016-lowest-sales-ever-dslrs-mirrorless/ 

and ends with the prediction that "some of the large camera manufacturers may disappear from the market by the end of the decade"

Whilst I'm not suggesting for one moment that Canon are likely to be one of them I think its fairly clear which way the market is moving right now ... 

None of us is unfamiliar with technology providing staggering miniaturisation and cost reductions.

A reversal in the trend for this allowing mobile phone camera technology to close the gap with traditional cameras would certainly be unprecedented.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 13, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > rjbray01 said:
> ...



Interesting...thanks!!


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 13, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > rjbray01 said:
> ...



I definitely do not doubt that they will become far less significant and that their products will become accordingly more expensive. I could see Fuji and maybe Nikon being gone. Sony and Canon will probably persist


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## Don Haines (Jul 13, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > rjbray01 said:
> ...



January is the worst month of the year for ALL discretionary spending in the US.


The typical consumer is in debt from Christmas and is not buying anything new.... I would be willing to bet that if you looked for the sales numbers from the month before, that you would find that they were the best month of the year....


That is a fatal flaw in the article. Basically, what it is saying is that post christmas sales of expensive cameras is worse than the average of the preceding year...


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## researcher (Jul 13, 2018)

I've been out of the loop for awhile - can anyone tell me if the upcoming FF mirrorless Canon will retain the EF mount, or is that technically impossible?


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 13, 2018)

researcher said:


> I've been out of the loop for awhile - can anyone tell me if the upcoming FF mirrorless Canon will retain the EF mount, or is that technically impossible?



It is not impossible, but nobody likely to post here can tell you whether it will, unless they want to lose their jobs.


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## Adelino (Jul 13, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



I think that is part of the issue. Cameras, in the future will only be for enthusiasts and pros. Average person will have a four camera AI powered computational image device with easy filters for creative (for better or worse) editing, easy sharing to friends,family and strangers. The average person would wonder why ANYONE would even consider buying a "camera". For me, as an enthusiast, I want reliability and if there are new features I want them to work. Canon will provide that but prices will increase.


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## lucuias (Jul 13, 2018)

Most probably I would this this mirrorless body has the same sensor as 5Dmark IV but different processor which cater for high spec video feature such as more realistic video format for 4k Video,60fps for 4k(I hope),full frame read out for 4k video ,120fps for full hd.Came on canon,be once ahead of their competitor,give us 4k 60fps with realistic video format.


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## fullstop (Jul 13, 2018)

Adelino said:


> I think that is part of the issue. Cameras, in the future will only be for enthusiasts and pros. Average person will have a four camera AI powered computational image device with easy filters for creative (for better or worse) editing, easy sharing to friends,family and strangers. The average person would wonder why ANYONE would even consider buying a "camera".




that's the way things are headed. It is accelerated by camera makers, who are all - to in slightly varying degrees - "ultra-conservative" and extremely slowly moving. Even in this very "Canon-friendly" forum [to avoid the "Canapolo ... " word] expectations for Canon's first FF mirrorless camera in 2018 are very low: "at best" a mirrorless version of a 2 year old mirrorslapper, not even fully competitive with "best-in-class" of today. 

I find this quite telling. No excitement, no adrenaline-rush, no expectation that Canon is about to "usher in a new era". No sense whatsoever, that Canon are really trying to hard and "pushing the envelope" to bring us something new, fabulous, grand, exciting. No anticipation that photo enthusiasts and pro's will get access to "greatly expanded photographic capabilities" AND "less bulk, weight and hopefully even lower cost" than before. A new, truly 21st century-worthy camera system that makes it easier than ever to capture the images we want to get, even in challenging conditions and in technical image quality unheard of up to now. None of it. Rather to the opposite: all that most forum dwellers here [current or former Canon customers] look like little rabbits in a hole with a snake approaching - only one thought on their minds: "OMG, will I be able to mount my legacy EF lenses without a little extension tube (>adapter<)? 

Quite telling for the state of affairs. Quite funny thing is, those small computational cameras that will eat the lunch of all "traditional camera bricks with fat lenses" will not come from Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Pentax or even Sony, no they will come from Samsung, Apple, Xiaomi or some Chinese, Taiwanese, Indian start-up company. Just like "smart" phones were not coming from complacent MARKET LEADER Nokia.  

The longer the former duopoly Canon/Nikon will stick to big, fat camera bricks with big, fat expensive ground glass bricks up front, and maybe even some mirror-and prism-shenanigans inside, the faster will the transition come upon them. And the harder will be the crushdown. Those half-assed cameras of yesteryear will then really be relegated to a market niche the size of middle- / large format film cameras today. 



Adelino said:


> For me, as an enthusiast, I want reliability and if there are new features I want them to work. Canon will provide that but prices will increase.



1. Every single price hike will only accelerate the spiral of death for "traditional cameras". 
2. No reason to assume that fully electronic, solid state, fully sealed cameras with some well-written software should be any less "reliable" than "19th century inspired opto-mechanical apparatuses".


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## Kit. (Jul 13, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> Here is what looks like a sincere attempt to estimate the sales ...
> 
> https://www.pointsinfocus.com/blog/2017/05/assessment-us-full-frame-camera-market-prompted-sonys-press-release/
> 
> ...


The idea of that article is that January is the slowest month for full frame camera sales, so market positions achieved by some brand during this month don't really represent its over-the-year performance.



rjbray01 said:


> This article reports CIPA ILC camera sales down 81% 2010-2016 ..
> https://www.diyphotography.net/camera-sales-report-2016-lowest-sales-ever-dslrs-mirrorless/


The article is BS. The inforgraphics it refers to reports that the overall digital camera sales are down 81% at the expense of non-interchangeable lens cameras. Difference in the ILCs manufactured is not that big (12.9 mln in 2010 and 11 mln in 2016) and can be explained by the effects of the earthquake alone (although the number of shipments of ILCs seems to have peaked in 2012 and is now considerably lower than then).


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## Mikehit (Jul 13, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 1. Every single price hike will only accelerate the spiral of death for "traditional cameras".
> 2. No reason to assume that fully electronic, solid state, fully sealed cameras with some well-written software should be any less "reliable" than "19th century inspired opto-mechanical apparatuses".



So tell us why the camera you want will stop this decline in the market

Regards you first point - price is not the issue. It is the convenience of having a phone with a camera.
Regards the second point - reliability of solid state vs opto-mechanical is not the problem. It is how the the manufacturer designs and implements the technology and the software and the act is that Canon produce cameras with arguably the best haptics and the least number of situations were you cannot do what you were expecting it to do.


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## fullstop (Jul 13, 2018)

I believe there is a 5 year time window until computational imaging devices take over. During that time Canon and Nikon could still sell a few cameras if they would make them more compact and more affordable. Otherwise doom just comes faster. 

Price is always an issue. "Middle class" cameras north of 2k and most new lenses above 1 grand are limiting sales to quite small "minority niches". There is no reason Canon could and should not launch a compact, decent FF MILC for USD 999 ... and FF lenses akin to EF-M lineup at moderate prices along with it. Lens prices are also the most limiting factor for sales of Sony's [and Fuji's] mirrorless systems. 

Decent APS-C cameras around 500, FF around 1k - would sell *a lot* more. See success of EOS 300D and 350D [Rebel] back in the day and EOS M50 today.


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## Mikehit (Jul 13, 2018)

fullstop said:


> There is no reason Canon could and should not launch a compact, decent FF MILC for USD 999



What do you base that assertion on? Simply repeating it does not make it true. 
Do you even know the cost of FF sensor vs APS-C?

Again (and I note you refused to address this question previously...twice): if Sony's cheapest FF MILC is $2,000 what makes you think it is feasible to make one at half they price? 
This is a prime opportunity for Sony to do immense harm to the CaNikon FF MILCs by using their experience and know-how to sell a FF MILC in the $1,000 range and make development of CaNikon equivalents much less appealing. So why aren't they?
After all, you have previously claimed Canon could have done the same thing to Sony years ago.


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## fullstop (Jul 13, 2018)

whatever the cost difference between APS-C and FF sensors may currently be, it is definitely not 500. 

Sony chose to go "hi price" [A7 1st gen was much less expensive] ... and the strategy does not work well. They are not reaching "critical market share mass" fast enough because of it.


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## Mikehit (Jul 13, 2018)

fullstop said:


> whatever the cost difference between APS-C and FF sensors may currently be, it is definitely not 500.


How do you know that? 
Simply repeating it does not make it true.



fullstop said:


> Sony chose to go "hi price" [A7 1st gen was much less expensive] ... and the strategy does not work well. They are not reaching "critical market share mass" fast enough because of it.


Any fool can sell goods. The skill is in selling enough of them at a profit that maintains your business.


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## fullstop (Jul 13, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > whatever the cost difference between APS-C and FF sensors may currently be, it is definitely not 500.
> ...









24 FF C vs. 80 APS-C sensors max. yield on an 8" wafer = factor 3.3, let's make it 5 to take into account less than optimal yields. If they use larger diameter wafers in 2018, ratio will be more favorable for FF, closer to 3x.

My *guess* for production costs is 30 bucks or so for APS-C CMOS sensors and 150 for FF sensors ["ceteris paribus", eg comparable sensor designs/generations, "industry-typical" lot size etc.]. Even if it were 50 for an APS-C sensor, FF would be around 250. But i think FF sensors are lower than that. 

But if you believe the delta is 500 or 1000, let's hear your data and/or assumptions. Just continuously repeating your statements without any data or reasoning behind it does not make them true.


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## BillB (Jul 13, 2018)

fullstop said:


> whatever the cost difference between APS-C and FF sensors may currently be, it is definitely not 500.
> 
> Sony chose to go "hi price" [A7 1st gen was much less expensive] ... and the strategy does not work well. They are not reaching "critical market share mass" fast enough because of it.



I also doubt that the difference is $500 when the front end development costs of full fame mirrorless and the cost of initial production of a new full frame sensor are cranked into equation, but that is something for Canon's acecountants to work out. Canon is not going to start its mirrorless fullframe production with a low cost Super M that requires thin margin high volume production to break even. The Canon thin margin high volume mirrorless camera is the M50, a camera that no Super M will ever be able to compete with on price. And Canon is never going to generate enough volume by underselling the A7 III and whatever Nikon manages to come up with. You and Canon actually seem to agree on most things as the M50 shows. Your only disagreements may be over sensor size and battery size.


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## scyrene (Jul 13, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > rjbray01 said:
> ...



Oh all cameras are threatened by phones to some extent, but the high end (and that includes all FF) much less, because the people who are looking to buy them are either rich enough that it doesn't matter (they can afford to buy both), or have specific needs that a phone can't yet fulfil (e.g. focal length, true shallow depth of field, low noise, low light image quality). Your characterisation of the current market as 'innovate or survive' isn't borne out by reality - the most conservative company has consistently outperformed the more innovative ones. Nothing has changed this year compared to last year or even substantially from five years ago, so once again I wonder why the urgency? Of course, Canon innovates as much as any company, but the way they implement new technology is a bit different to, say, Sony.

Cards on the table, I think you're trotting out the same old line 'Canon needs to do what I think is best or they'll go bust', albeit in a more roundabout way than usual, and I think you're wrong. There is no evidence that putting out more innovative products is the way to increase sales, unless you know something we don't?


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## Kit. (Jul 13, 2018)

fullstop said:


> I believe there is a 5 year time window until computational imaging devices take over.
> ...
> There is no reason Canon could and should not launch a compact, decent FF MILC for USD 999 ...


You are contradicting yourself. "Dying" market is a reason to increase prices, not to slash them.


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## BillB (Jul 13, 2018)

Three of Canon's big recent innovations have been dual pixel technology, the touchscreen interface, and inexpensive and high quality (but slow) aps-c zooms. None of these innovations generate much internet buzz. The question would seem to be whose innovations are having the most market success, not who has been innovating and who has not. 

Speaking for myself, the touchscreen interface on my 5D IV is at the got to have it level for me, especially since the IQ is plenty good enough for my purposes. But Canon does't innovate. Everybody knows that.


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## Mikehit (Jul 13, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 24 APS-C vs. 80 FF sensors max. yield on an 8" wafer = factor 3.3, let's make it 5 to take into account less than optimal yields. If they use larger diameter wafers in 2018, ratio will be more favorable for FF, closer to 3x.
> 
> My *guess* for production costs is 30 bucks or so for APS-C CMOS sensors and 150 for FF sensors ["ceteris paribus", eg comparable sensor designs/generations, "industry-typical" lot size etc.]. Even if it were 50 for an APS-C sensor, FF would be around 250. But i think FF sensors are lower than that.
> 
> But if you believe the delta is 500 or 1000, let's hear your data and/or assumptions. Just continuously repeating your statements without any data or reasoning behind it does not make them true.



I'm not the one making a claim - you are. I have nothing to prove. 
Your whole post is full of assumptions - where have you got those numbers from? That is all I am asking.


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## Don Haines (Jul 13, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > 24 APS-C vs. 80 FF sensors max. yield on an 8" wafer = factor 3.3, let's make it 5 to take into account less than optimal yields. If they use larger diameter wafers in 2018, ratio will be more favorable for FF, closer to 3x.
> ...



I remember reading, about 10 years ago, that crop sensors cost around $25 to produce, and FF were about $150 to produce. I have no idea what current costs would be as they are now on a finer lithography, more complex, and yields may have gone up or down.....


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## Don Haines (Jul 13, 2018)

BillB said:


> Three of Canon's big recent innovations have been dual pixel technology, the touchscreen interface, and inexpensive and high quality (but slow) aps-c zooms. None of these innovations generate much internet buzz. The question would seem to be whose innovations are having the most market success, not who has been innovating and who has not.
> 
> Speaking for myself, the touchscreen interface on my 5D IV is at the got to have it level for me, especially since the IQ is plenty good enough for my purposes. But Canon does't innovate. Everybody knows that.



The touchscreen interface is not a Canon innovation, but they were certainly the ones to get it right! Canon’s user interface is the best in the business, probably responsible for a lot of their sales success, and generally ignored on the internet....


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## amorse (Jul 13, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The touch screen on the 5D IV is amazing. I didn't know I needed it until I had it. Those sort of innovations are what makes Canon a contender though - doing the little things right.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 13, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Quite telling for the state of affairs. Quite funny thing is, those small computational cameras that will eat the lunch of all "traditional camera bricks with fat lenses" will not come from Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Pentax or even Sony, no they will come from Samsung, Apple, Xiaomi or some Chinese, Taiwanese, Indian start-up company.



Will eat the lunch of? That already happened.

Dedicated cameras are niche. Maybe 10 years from now Canon and Nikon will seem like Hasselblad does today. 

Such is life.


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## fullstop (Jul 13, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> The touchscreen interface is not a Canon innovation, but they were certainly the ones to get it right! Canon’s user interface is the best in the business, probably responsible for a lot of their sales success, and generally ignored on the internet....



that one i happily and fully agree! One of the main reasons I am still a Canon customer.


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## Don Haines (Jul 13, 2018)

amorse said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > BillB said:
> ...



Yes.... 70D..... 80D.... 6D2.... 5DIV.... It's a safe bet that every Canon DSLR from here on out will have them.... 

They were slow getting into them.... When the 7D2 came out, it should have had one, but unfortunately, it did not. They took their time and did it right. Although I chafe a bit with the slow speed at which Canon moves, they seem to get things right. Once you see a feature, you know it is good and they have gotten the bugs out.... now if they can only realize that they can use their Bluetooth to talk to headsets...…


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## BillB (Jul 13, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> amorse said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



To me, getting it right is part of innovation, as is understanding where innovations can really make a difference. Canon couldn't have anticipated the appearance of DPR and DXO magic numbers and they likely underestimated the level of internet interest in new camera models, but Canon seems to trust its ability to assess markets and develop appropriate technology.

To me, a key Canon decision was to go with dual pixel technology. My guess is that Canon waited on dual pixel before putting ADC onboard a sensor, which explains why they were slow to respond to their DR "problem". (I am pretty sure that Canon never thought that their problem was as important as DPR made it out to be. Who knows how it would have played out without DPR's magic numbers?). I wonder whether dual pixel was also a pacing factor in the development of the touchscreen interface as well as ADC. Why waste money on the development of components and software that you are going to obsolete in a couple of years?


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 13, 2018)

BillB said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > amorse said:
> ...



Bill, you’re suggesting canon has a long term strategy and that they don’t arbitrarily “nerf” a haphazard product line. I don’t buy it.


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## rrcphoto (Jul 13, 2018)

BillB said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > amorse said:
> ...



I think people over estimate the importance of DXO and DPR magic numbers way too much.

Dual pixel's and quite possibly ADC was limited by when Canon's new fab line got up and running. Even though we haven't had chipworks data for a while, it's nearly impossible for canon to have been doing the new 70D and onwards sensors and also the full frame DPAF sensors with 500nm design rules.

it explains the rather slow pause getting off the older 18mp sensors, everything was waiting for that.

since then, 2013, canon has replaced almost it's entire lineup with DPAF sensors, and is working on at least the 3rd generation of those sensors now.

ADC patents weren't really seen at all until around a year before the 1DX Mark II release, so there's that - it's not has if canon had it and sat on it for years.

the timeline and release of new technology sensor wise always started with the APS-C sensors first, I would imagine that will continue to be the implementation strategy for Canon as it's just easier to do things on smaller sensors first than it is with full frame sensors.

Canon did touchscreens before DPAF btw. the 60D had a touchscreen and multiple rebels well before DPAF.


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## ahsanford (Jul 13, 2018)

BillB said:


> My guess is that Canon waited on dual pixel before putting ADC onboard a sensor, which explains why they were slow to respond to their DR "problem".



But DPAF pre-dated Canon's on-chip ADC sensors: 

70D = July 2013
First on-chip ADC with a Canon (non-Sony-licensed) sensor = Feb 2016

- A


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## rrcphoto (Jul 13, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Bill, you’re suggesting canon has a long term strategy and that they don’t arbitrarily “nerf” a haphazard product line. I don’t buy it.




when it takes up to 3+ years to develop a camera body, and longer than that to do lenses, you can't help but have long term strategies in place.


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## Don Haines (Jul 13, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> Canon did touchscreens before DPAF btw. the 60D had a touchscreen and multiple rebels well before DPAF.



Not sure about that last one.... my 60D does not have a touchscreen 

I still don't regard touchscreens in Canon cameras as innovation..... They were in common use on an awful lot of stuff for a long time.... Back in the 1990's I was integrating them into equipment controllers, they are old technology!


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## Don Haines (Jul 13, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Bill, you’re suggesting canon has a long term strategy and that they don’t arbitrarily “nerf” a haphazard product line. I don’t buy it.
> ...




Yes, having to grow your fluorite crystals can slow things down a bit....


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## ahsanford (Jul 13, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Bill, you’re suggesting canon has a long term strategy and that they don’t arbitrarily “nerf” a haphazard product line. I don’t buy it.



Agree. I think Canon does have a long-term strategy on core technology, but it also monkeys around in all sorts of ways to set up this pyramid of features/prices/enticements to get you to step up and pay more.

Just off the cuff:

6D2 not getting an on-chip ADC sensor
No spot metering at an off-center AF point unless you get a 1-series body
The WiFi SD card not being made compatible with the 5D3 (this one's picky, I admit)
Single card slot in the 6D2
No coexistence of DPAF and 4K for the M50
Flash sync: 6-series 1/180, 5-Series 1/200, 1-series 1/250

We can call those things nerfing, 'strategic feature omission' or too expensive to implement for that price point -- doesn't really matter. It's business, I get it. We are not entitled to tech that is offered at the same market slot / price point as the competition. 

- A


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## BillB (Jul 13, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Bill, you’re suggesting canon has a long term strategy and that they don’t arbitrarily “nerf” a haphazard product line. I don’t buy it.
> ...



Agreed. Trying to figure out why specific features did or did not end up on a specific camera is speculative at best, but I don't think that refutes the idea that Canon has had a coherent mirrorless technology development based on dual pixel technology. 

Having said that, the 6DII sensor decision is baffling to me. Was it a cost decision? Was the original idea to get the 6DII to market before an ADC chip could be ready, but for some reason delays screwed up the timing? Was Canon being Canon and simply ignoring the foreseeable internet firestorm because in their opinion the 6DII sensor was just fine, no matter what DPR was going to say?


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## rrcphoto (Jul 13, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



fun fact, it took a full year to grow a crystal for the 1200mm lens.


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## rrcphoto (Jul 13, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Canon did touchscreens before DPAF btw. the 60D had a touchscreen and multiple rebels well before DPAF.
> ...



my mistake! i thought it did. well the EOS-M had a smooth and fully operational touchscreen in 2012, a year before the 70D. it wasn't held up by DPAF which was what my meaning was.


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## Stefan K. (Jul 13, 2018)

For me the most exciting thing is the new mount type. Whatever kind of camera body Canon will launch, they will replace it within three or four years. The new mount however, will last 30 to 40 years.

I am eager to get answers to two question.

will the EF-mount lenses fit onto the new camera body without adapter?
what about the compatibility to the M-mount? So far, all crop camera bodies can use full frame lenses from the same vendor without adapter. Canon EF-S to EF, Nikon DX to FX, Sony E-mount crop to E-mount full frame.

What about the EOS M camera bodies? There is only a limited set of M-mount lenses available. Where could get a high-end M-mount camera (EOS 7D/Nikon D500 class) the necessary tele and macro lenses from?


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## ahsanford (Jul 13, 2018)

Stefan K. said:


> I am eager to get answers to two question.
> 
> will the EF-mount lenses fit onto the new camera body without adapter?
> what about the compatibility to the M-mount? So far, all crop camera bodies can use full frame lenses from the same vendor without adapter. Canon EF-S to EF, Nikon DX to FX, Sony E-mount crop to E-mount full frame.



Welcome to CR!

The first bullet point is what we've been debating for years. No one knows. 

If Canon wants to delight existing FF users, folks with a lot of EF glass, folks who accept the realities of bigger/faster/longer lenses, they'll go EF.

If Canon wants to follow suit with Sony (either defensively to also have a small camera or offensively to smash and grab X% of their share), court younger new-to-FF users, offer their own FF folks a small apparatus to do the same or similar job, they'll go with a thin mount + EF adaptor (like what EOS M did).

If they don't know what to do, or have bigger plans for mirrorless, they may offer both.

Current polling here: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=35293.msg727180#msg727180

- A


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## Don Haines (Jul 13, 2018)

Stefan K. said:


> For me the most exciting thing is the new mount type. Whatever kind of camera body Canon will launch, they will replace it within three or four years. The new mount however, will last 30 to 40 years.
> 
> I am eager to get answers to two question.
> 
> ...




Welcome to the Forum!


The short answer on mounts is that none of us know. Canon is kind of famous for keeping quiet right up to the official announcement.... everyone in the know is bound by non-disclosure agreements.


All of us forum regulars have lots of opinions, but none of us have facts.... beware one user in particular who claims inside knowledge and has super-long posts with fanciful claims..... None of us know. Personally, My bet is on a native EF mount that will also allow EF-S lenses to be used on a FF mirrorless, quickly followed by a FF equivalent of the M cameras and a very few slower lenses...

As for glass for M cameras, third party lenses are starting to appear.... some of which are quite interesting, like a 40mm F.85 lens!!!! 

https://www.adorama.com/kal40085mb.html


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## rrcphoto (Jul 13, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Stefan K. said:
> 
> 
> > I am eager to get answers to two question.
> ...



it depends why they are coming out with a mirrorless full frame camera, what's their business objective.

1. is it to cater to the "I want a small camera that is full frame" niche

2. or is it the "I want a more hybrid stills and video camera with a built in EVF and related technology" camera.

3. or some combination of the two

if it's 1. then they have to come out with a new mount or use the EF-M mount, or use the SL1 ergonomics and come out with an ultra tiny, ergonomically gimped EF mount mirrorless, you know, like a sony.
if it's 2 or a combination of 2 and 3, then they could use the EF mount and existing ecosystem

whatever the case may be - this is probably the most hotly debated decision inside of Canon Inc. since the FD /birth of EF mount days.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 13, 2018)

BillB said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



I suspect they were producing full frame sensors on two lines simultaneously, one capable of on-dye ADC and one not. Similarly, the newer A7Riii doesn’t have a stacked sensor like the older A9. Both have production overlap despite coming to market at different times, and they require different processes.


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## ahsanford (Jul 13, 2018)

BillB said:


> Having said that, the 6DII sensor decision is baffling to me. Was it a cost decision? Was the original idea to get the 6DII to market before an ADC chip could be ready, but for some reason delays screwed up the timing? Was Canon being Canon and simply ignoring the foreseeable internet firestorm because in their opinion the 6DII sensor was just fine, no matter what DPR was going to say?



Your guess is as good as mine. Could have been:


Internal production capacity for on-chip stuff was already committed at the time


On-chip FF sensors were costing Canon a fortune at the time and this was a way to make the margins work on a $2099 locked in starting price point


There was a deliberate attempt to never have a 6-series sensor ever outperform a 5-series sensor ever again (to protect the prestige/price of the 5-series), etc.


_[insert your guess here]_
- A


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## rrcphoto (Jul 13, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



i doubt it had anything to do with lines.

DPAF would require pretty tight design rule fabrication with or without ADC's.

Canon has to consider the cost over the lifecycle of the camera, Canon Japan gets very little back in the way to covert manufacturing, QA, parts and materials.

it could very well be just dollars and cents. it's cheaper / faster to make a sensor without ADC than it is with ADC. there's less complexity to the sensor.

I also suspect that the 6D Mark II both had ADC's on sensor anyways, however, a less complex single slope and single stage CDS and to save costs, they simply used that sensor and scaled it to 26mp.

people think that ADC's on chip are what made EXMOR,etc so great, it wasn't. it was the dual stage CDS before and after ADC that reduced the error / thus noise down to next to nothing. ADC's will always have a 1-2 bit error rate and drift depending on temperature, only with increased problems being shoved on a sensor dye. without CDS to remove that ADC error, you get banding, noise and a bunch of other problems.

that's my theory but i'm not about to spend 2000 at chipworks to prove it lol

here's a snippet about EXMOR.


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## ahsanford (Jul 13, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> I also suspect that the 6D Mark II both had ADC's on sensor anyways, however, a less complex single slope and single stage CDS and to save costs, they simply used that sensor and scaled it to 26mp.
> 
> people think that ADC's on chip are what made EXMOR,etc so great, it wasn't. it was the dual stage CDS before and after ADC that reduced the error / thus noise down to next to nothing. ADC's will always have a 1-2 bit error rate and drift depending on temperature, only with increased problems being shoved on a sensor dye. without CDS to remove that ADC error, you get banding, noise and a bunch of other problems.
> 
> that's my theory but i'm not about to spend 2000 at chipworks to prove it lol



I'm no EE or chip designer, so as an engineer in another field I feel like a proper hack distilling this down to 'on chip ADC' or 'off chip ADC' sort of terminology, but what you've written doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. ;D

I am referring to the PTP guy describing a straighter DR vs. ISO relationship (aka "on chip ADC", EXMOR, etc.) on the low end vs. the hockey-stick J-curve (aka "off chip", Canon _before_ the change: 5D3 / 6D2 / 70D / 7D2, etc.).

I'll stick with "on-chip ADC" until I hear a better offering. 

- A


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 13, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> that's my theory but i'm not about to spend 2000 at chipworks to prove it lol



Where’s your forum community spirit? ;D


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## Don Haines (Jul 13, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > that's my theory but i'm not about to spend 2000 at chipworks to prove it lol
> ...



Just ask Harry.... I'm sure he designed it


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## ethanz (Jul 13, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



He would BUY the chip and test it HIMSELF.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 14, 2018)

fullstop said:


> But i really want "AI-AF" to *reliably and precisely* do the job.



Eventually I could see a connected camera with sophisticated processing get the ability to learn subjects for the purposes of AF. Say you're going after birds, you load a module so the camera recognizes and prioritizes bird-shaped things. That's probably a long way off, but not infeasible. A manufacturer could even sell subject-specific modules.



ethanz said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Nah, the company he freelances for would buy it and in his spare time he’d use it to develop a cure for all cancerous growth and promise to give it away for free, but then the bossman would squash it and instead he’d get his own helicopter and a few hundred acres of land in Malibu (for which that helicopter would come in handy. Traffic amirite?)


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## rrcphoto (Jul 14, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I also suspect that the 6D Mark II both had ADC's on sensor anyways, however, a less complex single slope and single stage CDS and to save costs, they simply used that sensor and scaled it to 26mp.
> ...



except on chip ADC was most likely implemented in the generational leap with the 750D

there's a good case to be made until you have chipworks data, that the 80D was in fact the second generation of ADC on sensor.

this we can determine from actual images of the sensors themselves that Canon supplied.

700D to 750D when through a dramatic pinout change, similar to the 70D to 80D, same as the 5D Mark III to the 5D Mark IV and the 6D to 6D Mark II.

You could state that there's reason to believe that all the latest generation of canon sensors all have ADC's on sensor of some form.


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## ahsanford (Jul 14, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> except on chip ADC was most likely implemented in the generational leap with the 750D
> 
> there's a good case to be made until you have chipworks data, that the 80D was in fact the second generation of ADC on sensor.



I never knew that! Has one ever investigated this?

- A


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## rrcphoto (Jul 14, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > except on chip ADC was most likely implemented in the generational leap with the 750D
> ...



nope because most of them just stick to the ADC is what was done.

however the T6i pinout; 

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/cameras/dslr/eos-rebel-t6i-ef-s-18-55mm-is-stm

located here more closely matches the 80D than it does the prior analog era chips such as the 70D:

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/cameras/dslr/eos-70d

atypically the many more pins are generally required for digital on chip

this was all done well before the 80D (T6i was released on April 2015) versus the 80D on Feb 2016.


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## mikekx102 (Jul 15, 2018)

Is there any chance an EF 14mm F2L could be announced in September?


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## privatebydesign (Jul 15, 2018)

mikekx102 said:


> Is there any chance an EF 14mm F2L could be announced in September?



None.


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