# More New Full Frame Rumors [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 19, 2011)

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I received two other emails today talking about what could be coming in October from Canon.</p>
<p>According to one of the emails:</p>
<blockquote><p>Canon will be launching a new camera later in October. Already in production and described internally as a â€œNikon-killerâ€, it is reportedly a camera with lower megapixels than might be expected for a new release, but with excellent dynamic range and ISO performance.</p></blockquote>
<p>No one has come forward in the last while to say a new 1Ds Mark IV or 5D Mark III were in the immediate pipeline, for the moment this appears to be it.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## bornshooter (Sep 19, 2011)

Nikon killer  in production  xmas time coming  happy days


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## docsmith (Sep 19, 2011)

That is a rumor I hope becomes true......While I absolutely appreciate that some, especially pros, would love some of the 1Ds specs that have been floating around, increasing DR and ISO performance targets all users. And a less than expected megapixel count (15-25MP?) with increased DR and ISO performance I think may hit the broadest market and happens to include me ;D. This fits nicely with a number of the rumors we are hearing....


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## Bob Howland (Sep 19, 2011)

Finally!.....I hope


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## niko (Sep 19, 2011)

The "Lord of Darkness" rumors are once again here.


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## kode (Sep 19, 2011)

If near true, this sounds a lot like the kind of camera I have been wanting since I figured out that I wanted an FF body.

At least if the viewfinder is decent. Good DR and ISO performance sounds good enough. Makes me wonder a bit over the sensor technology, though. Will it be a backlit FF sensor or what?


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## wockawocka (Sep 19, 2011)

I've always said I was happy with 21mp...just better high ISO performance and DR in a 1D body.


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## polpaulin (Sep 19, 2011)

no more pixels , Nikon killer
I TAKE IT AT ONCE !


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## Bokehmon (Sep 19, 2011)

kode said:


> If near true, this sounds a lot like the kind of camera I have been wanting since I figured out that I wanted an FF body.
> 
> At least if the viewfinder is decent. Good DR and ISO performance sounds good enough. Makes me wonder a bit over the sensor technology, though. Will it be a backlit FF sensor or what?



Backlit sensors are only most effective on P&S, too tired to explain why. also, agree that DR and ISO are two things I care about the most. I would even sacrifice ISO for more DR. More or less megapixels don't really matter to me as long as the IQ is good. 

Also, no more of that 98% viewfinder bullshit in the 5D series.


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## lol (Sep 19, 2011)

Interesting... "lower megapixels than might be expected" doesn't necessarily mean lower than what we have now, just not as much an increase as some might have expected. It could still be anything above what we already have...


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## DuLt (Sep 19, 2011)

For a nikon killer, it would be lovely to see a FF rebel...


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## robert55 (Sep 19, 2011)

Too vague: there is more than one Nikon camera this could compete with
Also high wishlist content, the wishlist being that of those who believe that higher pixel count is detrimental to better IQ

(and it could as pointed out still be a 5D# with 25MP when 30 has been rumored or a 1Ds# with 40 where 54 was the recent rumor)


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## dgsphto (Sep 19, 2011)

7D + FF @21MP + DR + ISO + Better In Camera Image Processing + Less noise all across the board + Top Video = Nikon Killer?


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## NotABunny (Sep 19, 2011)

To say that it's a Nikon killer, one must first see what Nikon has coming. I doubt anyone at Canon has had the Nikon sensor for a side-by-side comparison.


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## outsider (Sep 19, 2011)

"Nikon Killer"?
I guess they must mean 2009 Nikon technology killer (I think the D3s was released in 09).

Nikon is likely also working a better sensor then the one in their D3s... So this sensors many not be a Nikon killer for too long.


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## Justin (Sep 19, 2011)

Nikon killer is a ridiculous comment. Like has been said, maybe 2009 nikon tech, but not 2011-2012 Nion tech. A D800 is coming for example.


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## photogaz (Sep 19, 2011)

Bascially somebody saw the "Less pixels are better" comment from Canon and thought "hey you know what I'll submit a rumour"


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## awinphoto (Sep 19, 2011)

Nikon probably has a new camera planned called the Canon Killer haha. For what it's worth, cameras at this day and age are so similar and quality is so close such as IQ between 5d m2 and D700 and 7d vs D300s... It will be interesting to see what innovations and new bells and whistles they throw in these puppies... Whether it's a revolution or evolution... I'm not getting excited until I see it in writing in form of a Press Release, however I hope it's soon... I'm not fussed too much about more MP but I want AF, IQ, and sharpness detail without having to turn sharpness up in raw or shooting modes...


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## LuCoOc (Sep 19, 2011)

While I agree with all of you who say it a 2009 tech killer, it still means it's the best beeing. Keep in mind that the D800 is only rumored as well as any canon cam comming.

Any "Entry level Full Frame" would be a great step forward - economicly (for canon) and maybe even revolutionary. Wasn't the classic 5D the first FF cam below the 1D(s)/Nikon D(X) series and revolutioned the camera lines of both companies. Producing an even cheaper camera could be the next step towards a FF for the mass camera.
I'm neither looking for a new Camera at the moment nor within the next 1 or 2 years but very excited about this rumor. A cheap Full Frame cam is what I would like to upgrade to...

I LIKE RUMORS


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## fyngyrz (Sep 19, 2011)

> a camera with lower megapixels than might be expected for a new release, but with excellent dynamic range and ISO performance.



Ok, NOW you have my attention. It's about time!

This describes a camera I would buy right out of the gate.

Faster transfers from the camera, less PC storage space, faster image processing, less noise, better performance over the hours of darkness, more images on the camera's card, faster processing and potentially faster per-frame capture... and it uses my lens collection! You bet I'd buy a Canon camera like this. In a heartbeat.


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## macfly (Sep 19, 2011)

Great, something for the enthusiasts, nothing for the pros.


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## pedro (Sep 19, 2011)

yepp! @fyngyrz: plus one. we've talked about nightphotography over at dpr. and I know you'll cherish every moment to get outthere and do nightskies...so do I. hope there's more to it than a grain of salt 8)
Cheers, Pedro alias guatitamasluz


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## Stuart (Sep 19, 2011)

Its not so much that Canon needs against Nikon - Sony is the ne being clever at the moment and looks to be rapidly stealing new photographer market share.


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## Bob Howland (Sep 19, 2011)

macfly said:


> Great, something for the enthusiasts, nothing for the pros.



I don't know about that. It could be aimed at wedding photographers. They seem to like the D700 and 5D2. A fairly rugged small body with focusing as good as the D700, high ISO image quality as good as the D3s, 5-6FPS, 16-21MP and DR better than anything currently available might not qualify as a "Nikon killer", but it would certainly be a worthy competitor.


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## unfocused (Sep 19, 2011)

macfly said:


> Great, something for the enthusiasts, nothing for the pros.



Don't despair, this is a CR1 rumor, and that's being generous. This is just something to get all the full-frame fantasizers excited, just like the other post on an "entry-level full frame." If a full frame camera like this were introduced, it would be delivered by Miniature Unicorns and include some free Pixie Dust.


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## aaronofnero (Sep 19, 2011)

well, clearly this is evolutionary. let me wager and outrageously accurate and educated prediction. 

a fanciful 5dmkIII with the following: 
55MP full frame image with 28 stops of dynamic range and a noiseless ISO range from 25 to 102,400. b/w noise compression kicks in at 409,600 ISO (max). indescribable AF with 90 point recognition at all offered exposure options, of equal power and effectiveness during video. 10,000,000 exposure durability on shutter with 60 - 1/32000 second timing variables. specialty flash sync at 1/2000 of a second. 24fps burst mode at RAW. manual video control over full dynamic range and iso. incremental frame rates from 1 to 240 frames a second at 18bit 4k resolution, uncompressed 4:4:4 prores codec with built in HDR mode. rolling shutter. in-camera aperture, zoom and focus control (wireless with controller). dual CF card reader/writer supporting up to two 512GB 120mb/s cards. 3G-SDI output. thunderbolt output. complete removal of aliasing and moire issues. quarter-inch input for audio, with manual audio control and phenomenal compressor/limiter/white-noise reducer options engineered by Waves. 

bunch of other neat stuff. 

oh, and it comes as an option with a brand new 16-135mm f/1.2 L series lens with an entirely new motion-predictive system of IS. 

they have also rumored the street name for this camera to be appropriately titled "the game changer" ...Nike is also on board for co-op marketing.


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## LuCoOc (Sep 19, 2011)

aaronofnero said:


> well, clearly this is evolutionary. let me wager and outrageously accurate and educated prediction.
> 
> a fanciful 5dmkIII with the following:
> 55MP full frame image with 28 stops of dynamic range and a noiseless ISO range from 25 to 102,400. b/w noise compression kicks in at 409,600 ISO (max). indescribable AF with 90 point recognition at all offered exposure options, of equal power and effectiveness during video. 10,000,000 exposure durability on shutter with 60 - 1/32000 second timing variables. specialty flash sync at 1/2000 of a second. 24fps burst mode at RAW. manual video control over full dynamic range and iso. incremental frame rates from 1 to 240 frames a second at 18bit 4k resolution, uncompressed 4:4:4 prores codec with built in HDR mode. rolling shutter. in-camera aperture, zoom and focus control (wireless with controller). dual CF card reader/writer supporting up to two 512GB 120mb/s cards. 3G-SDI output. thunderbolt output. complete removal of aliasing and moire issues. quarter-inch input for audio, with manual audio control and phenomenal compressor/limiter/white-noise reducer options engineered by Waves.
> ...



wtf
wrong thread?

post it here --> http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,1645.0.html


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## Pag (Sep 19, 2011)

unfocused said:


> it would be delivered by Miniature Unicorns and include some free Pixie Dust.



Now, that's a camera I'd purchase! ;D


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## fotoray (Sep 19, 2011)

dgsphto said:


> 7D + FF @21MP + DR + ISO + Better In Camera Image Processing + Less noise all across the board + Top Video = Nikon Killer?




I like it, except could do without a video upgrade.


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## fotoray (Sep 19, 2011)

aaronofnero said:


> well, clearly this is evolutionary. let me wager and outrageously accurate and educated prediction.
> 
> a fanciful 5dmkIII with the following:
> 55MP full frame image with 28 stops of dynamic range and a noiseless ISO range from 25 to 102,400. b/w noise compression kicks in at 409,600 ISO (max). indescribable AF with 90 point recognition at all offered exposure options, of equal power and effectiveness during video. 10,000,000 exposure durability on shutter with 60 - 1/32000 second timing variables. specialty flash sync at 1/2000 of a second. 24fps burst mode at RAW. manual video control over full dynamic range and iso. incremental frame rates from 1 to 240 frames a second at 18bit 4k resolution, uncompressed 4:4:4 prores codec with built in HDR mode. rolling shutter. in-camera aperture, zoom and focus control (wireless with controller). dual CF card reader/writer supporting up to two 512GB 120mb/s cards. 3G-SDI output. thunderbolt output. complete removal of aliasing and moire issues. quarter-inch input for audio, with manual audio control and phenomenal compressor/limiter/white-noise reducer options engineered by Waves.
> ...




PRICE = $50,000


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## Shnookums (Sep 19, 2011)

Canon Rumors said:


> internally as a â€œNikon-killerâ€



Killing what? Nikon? The whole Nikon feature set? So... This next camera would be...

16bit, Nikon does 14
+12fps, Nikon does 11
+25mp, Nikon does 24
+52 AF point, Nikon does 51
+3 CF card, Nikon has 2
support EF, EF-S and maybe FD, Nikon does support old and new lens,
popup flash with wireless flash trigger, another thing Nikon does,
4D AdobeRGB color metering, Nikon has only 3D RGB,

What does it take for a Canon camera to beat Nikon? Which feature will Canon kill?

My point is that the "Nikon-Killer" name doesn't make sense... A D3s killer or D700 killer would make more sense but the whole Nikon brand killing thing doesn't.

Whatever Canon is coming with next will beat Nikon on most feature but even Canon has to choose what to attack hehe


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## jeremymerriam (Sep 19, 2011)

macfly said:


> Great, something for the enthusiasts, nothing for the pros.



speak for yourself. I am a pro and i still shoot with the 12.8 MP 5D. I am holding off until canon either makes a camera with better dynamic range or the price of medium format backs on the lower Megapixel go down. the megapixel war is useless for my needs


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## JerryFish (Sep 19, 2011)

I would absolutely by this camera. Most people this camera would be targeted at (non pros) dont need the high pixel count required for large prints (18+ is plenty). A shift in bettering IQ, DR and low light is the way canon should go. Obviously if canon is trying to create a low light D3s rival, theyre going to need better AF... what's the point of a capable low light sensor if you cant lock focus?


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## michsyw (Sep 19, 2011)

Oh wow, 3 years to put a FF sensor into 7D body? yes, 7D with FF is nikon killer to me, period. Maybe throw in the articulate screen or what not, but thats not important.


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## matai (Sep 19, 2011)

This is very exciting to me, I'm currently on a Panasonic G3 which is a great little camera. However full-frame has been calling to me as landscapes and nature photography is my thing. 

What price range do you all think this will be? $1500-$2000?

I would basically be happy with a Digital Rebel with a full-frame sensor right now, can't wait to hear more about this!


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## aaronofnero (Sep 19, 2011)

LuCoOc said:


> aaronofnero said:
> 
> 
> > well, clearly this is evolutionary. let me wager and outrageously accurate and educated prediction.
> ...




haha it was a bit of sarcasm to the taste of the title "nikon killer" ....all of which i mentioned is beyond a wishlist.. more so potentially unlikely, as it would rival most cameras 30k+ and would be excessively advanced technologically


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## Shnookums (Sep 19, 2011)

jeremymerriam said:


> speak for yourself. I am a pro and i still shoot with the 12.8 MP 5D. I am holding off until canon either makes a camera with better dynamic range or the price of medium format backs on the lower Megapixel go down. the megapixel war is useless for my needs



Mega-pixel are not everything you are right. My1DII has only 8.2mp and it still works great. But, I'm sure that the 1DIV has better dynamic range, even if it has more mega-pixel... Would a camera produced today with 8mp have a better dynamic range than the current 1DIV?... Probably. Then again, nearly 8 years after I bought my 1DII, I wouldnt buy a 8mp camera now... The difference between 21 and 8 is huge!


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## djw (Sep 20, 2011)

aaronofnero said:


> well, clearly this is evolutionary. let me wager and outrageously accurate and educated prediction.
> 
> a fanciful 5dmkIII with the following:
> 55MP full frame image with 28 stops of dynamic range and a noiseless ISO range from 25 to 102,400. b/w noise compression kicks in at 409,600 ISO (max). indescribable AF with 90 point recognition at all offered exposure options, of equal power and effectiveness during video. 10,000,000 exposure durability on shutter with 60 - 1/32000 second timing variables. specialty flash sync at 1/2000 of a second. 24fps burst mode at RAW. manual video control over full dynamic range and iso. incremental frame rates from 1 to 240 frames a second at 18bit 4k resolution, uncompressed 4:4:4 prores codec with built in HDR mode. rolling shutter. in-camera aperture, zoom and focus control (wireless with controller). dual CF card reader/writer supporting up to two 512GB 120mb/s cards. 3G-SDI output. thunderbolt output. complete removal of aliasing and moire issues. quarter-inch input for audio, with manual audio control and phenomenal compressor/limiter/white-noise reducer options engineered by Waves.
> ...



Cool! Send this in via email and your comment is now a rumour ;-)


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## V8Beast (Sep 20, 2011)

An entry-level, lower megapixel (whatever that means) camera sounds interesting, but how would you market such a machine? With many, if not most, people looking to step up from a point-and-shoot to an SLR, all they care about is megapixels. To them, image quality and megapixel count is one in the same. You have to be somewhat committed to techno geekery to even know or care about stuff like ISO and dynamic range. I can't see how you'd convince people like that to spend substantially more money than a Rebel on this rumored full-frame, "lower mp" body when they don't even know the difference between crop sensors and FF sensors.


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## Rocky (Sep 20, 2011)

V8Beast said:


> An entry-level, lower megapixel (whatever that means) camera sounds interesting, but how would you market such a machine? With many, if not most, people looking to step up from a point-and-shoot to an SLR, all they care about is megapixels. To them, image quality and megapixel count is one in the same. You have to be somewhat committed to techno geekery to even know or care about stuff like ISO and dynamic range. I can't see how you'd convince people like that to spend substantially more money than a Rebel on this rumored full-frame, "lower mp" body when they don't even know the difference between crop sensors and FF sensors.


Most people upgrading from P &S do have some idea about, ISO, MP sensor size etc. Also most of people can tell the picture from a P &S from a APS_C, let alone FF.We should not assume that they are that naive. Also Canon can always educate people in their advertisement and literatures.


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## Dave (Sep 20, 2011)

I love the word "Nikon Killer"



photogaz said:


> Bascially somebody saw the "Less pixels are better" comment from Canon and thought "hey you know what I'll submit a rumour"



I don't think so. This is the logical conclusion: It's actually exactly what I wrote yesterday:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,1670.msg24418.html#msg24418

And actually... Canon really NEEDS a "Nikon Killer"


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## dgsphto (Sep 20, 2011)

Dave said:


> And actually... Canon really NEEDS a "Nikon Killer"



Well said. Canon's been way to greedy for long and have not been fair to their customers based on how they have segmented their product lines and features. 

Nikon, on the other hand, packs in everything that they can at a given price point. Just look at what the D7000 brought to the table!

The 5D Classic was revolutionary in what it brought to the table. I am yet to see customers being treated fairly after then in the Canon camp. And based on what I am reading, the tip-over point has been reached now! So yes, they only have one shot at it to get it right, especially when Nikon seemingly has replacements planned for the D300s and the D700.


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## UncleFester (Sep 20, 2011)

I'd be willing to bet most people couldn't tell the difference between D3 and 5DII images. Or 5DII to a 7D, or a 1DIV to a 5D. These cameras are all too close and the _look_ of the image is down to the photographers. 

So, one killing the other? I get the impression they're building the same cameras.


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## Meh (Sep 20, 2011)

[/quote]
My1DII has only 8.2mp and it still works great. But, I'm sure that the 1DIV has better dynamic range, even if it has more mega-pixel... 
[/quote]

Yes, it does. The reason being the 1DIV has much lower noise due to the modern electronics in the sensor.

[/quote]
Would a camera produced today with 8mp have a better dynamic range than the current 1DIV?... Probably. 
[/quote]

Yes, it would. The larger pixels would each collect more light and the sensor, due to current electronics, would have lower noise.


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## wockawocka (Sep 20, 2011)

UncleFester said:


> I'd be willing to bet most people couldn't tell the difference between D3 and 5DII images. Or 5DII to a 7D, or a 1DIV to a 5D.



At 100%, manually exposed with the same settings... hell yeah I could.


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## Bruce Photography (Sep 20, 2011)

Reply to Uncle Fester: I probably am not most people and therefore you could be right about not being able to tell the difference between images from camera. I own several x0D cameras, a 5D, 5D MK II as well as a 7D. In all cases I can easily tell the differences between a FF camera and an aps-c sized camera. Just go to 100% in camera raw in photoshop and start doing sharpening. You'll see it in the noise level at even moderate ISO such as 800. My standard prints are 17x25 and the amount of extra work I need to do to make an acceptable aps-c print at that size is significantly more than a FF image. I would never know on a Web image or even a screen image on my computer but in working with large prints I can easily see a difference even using the same lenes at the same ISO and exposure settings. For now, my 5DMK II is king of IQ. I just wish the autofocus was more advanced. I am confident that Canon will come up with a 21MP+ pro camera that fully competes with the Nikon D3X before we once again play the game of leap frog. I am hoping for a tiltable LCD. If not I'm planing on using a portable external monitor for my low and high angle shots.


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## J. McCabe (Sep 20, 2011)

aaronofnero said:


> well, clearly this is evolutionary. let me wager and outrageously accurate and educated prediction.
> 
> a fanciful 5dmkIII with the following:
> 55MP full frame image with 28 stops of dynamic range and a noiseless ISO range from 25 to 102,400.



No, that wouldn't cut it. Need 200MP to print those B0 posters at 300DPI.


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## koolman (Sep 20, 2011)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; margin: 70px 0 0 0;\"><glusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/09/more-new-full-frame-rumors-cr1/\"></glusone></div><div id=\"fb_share_1\" style=\"float: right; margin: 0 -50px 0 10px;\"><a name=\"fb_share\" type=\"box_count\" share_url=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/09/more-new-full-frame-rumors-cr1/\" href=\"http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php\">Share</a></div><div><script src=\"http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/connect.php/js/FB.Share\" type=\"text/javascript\"></script></div><div class=\"tweetmeme_button\" style=\"float: right; margin-left: 10px;\"><a class=\"tm_button\" rel=\"&style=normal&b=2\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/09/more-new-full-frame-rumors-cr1/\"></a></div>
> I received two other emails today talking about what could be coming in October from Canon.</p>
> <p>According to one of the emails:</p>
> <blockquote><p>Canon will be launching a new camera later in October. Already in production and described internally as a â€œNikon-killerâ€, it is reportedly a camera with lower megapixels than might be expected for a new release, but with excellent dynamic range and ISO performance.</p></blockquote>
> ...



Canon's main advantage is its L line of lenses. For crop cameras - the L's focal Lengths are a bit ridicules - as the 24 is not wide, the 16-35 is a fortune and not ultra wide, the older fast primes preform mediocre on the crops.
The 24-70 - behave differently on a crop - as the longer end was not made to focus at such a magnification (you need to stand further away from your subject).

The body race is in the field of electronics (sensor and processor development). It makes much sense for Canon to introduce more affordable FF bodies. This will achieve a few things simultaneously:

1) Give this FF body a substantial advantage over all the MFT new bodies FLOODING the market - who's IQ is quite near (if not even better) then the crops.

2) Open the L lens market to many more consumers.

3) Allow a real jump in DR - which again will "jump" the canon body way ahead of what crops can do.

In other words - the rumor of an affordable FF - in my opinion - reflect a wise business move.


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## ranplett (Sep 20, 2011)

*Re: More New Full Frame Rumors [CR 0.001]*

I may sound really cynical here, but this post just screams of fanboy with the mention of "Nikon killer." This is the language of gear buyers that want to prove they have the best stuff.

Also, yet another wishlist type of rumor where photogs, or want-to-be-photogs cheerleading for certain features. It seems that everyone in the forums wants different features. Guess what? I want 40mp. So Canon... build a 40mp camera! But please, do away with that annoying flash hotshoe. I'd buy it right away!!

Do you really think the Canon marketing division won't kibosh less MP? It's going to be 24 - 28MP.


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## Bob Howland (Sep 20, 2011)

Bruce Photography said:


> I am hoping for a tiltable LCD. If not I'm planing on using a portable external monitor for my low angle shots.



You could always use an angle finder:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/183200-REG/Canon_2882A001_Angle_Finder_C.html


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## lol (Sep 20, 2011)

To me the angle finder is no substitute to a tilty screen. I got the official Canon one to use for macro, and ended up not really using it as it just wasn't nice to use. The biggest problem being you need to get your eye near it, and it is similarly limiting to the normal viewfinder. A tilty screen gives you so much more freedom of movement.


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## UncleFester (Sep 20, 2011)

Bruce Photography said:


> Reply to Uncle Fester: I probably am not most people and therefore you could be right about not being able to tell the difference between images from camera. I own several x0D cameras, a 5D, 5D MK II as well as a 7D. In all cases I can easily tell the differences between a FF camera and an aps-c sized camera. Just go to 100% in camera raw in photoshop and start doing sharpening. You'll see it in the noise level at even moderate ISO such as 800. My standard prints are 17x25 and the amount of extra work I need to do to make an acceptable aps-c print at that size is significantly more than a FF image. * I would never now on a Web image or even a screen image on my computer* but in working with large prints I can easily see a difference even using the same lenes as the same ISO and exposure settings. For now, my 5DMK II is king of IQ. I just wish the autofocus was more advanced. I am confident that Canon will come up with a 21MP+ pro camera that fully competes with the Nikon D3X before we once again play the game of leap frog. I am hoping for a tiltable LCD. If not I'm planing on using a portable external monitor for my low angle shots.



My point exactly.


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## V8Beast (Sep 20, 2011)

Rocky said:


> Also most of people can tell the picture from a P &S from a APS_C, let alone FF.We should not assume that they are that naive. Also Canon can always educate people in their advertisement and literatures.



I beg to differ. IMHO, people that have owned both FF and crop sensor bodies can easily spot the difference in image quality between the two. However, there are at least a half-dozen posts made here daily that claim their 7D or xxD body produces images on par with a FF body. They even post the indisputable evidence (links to some yahoo's blog "testing" FF and crop sensor bodies back-to-back by taking photos of bookshelves and their girlfriend's hairy arm pits) to back up their claims 

When I'm on assignment, people are shocked to find out that I keep a lowly 12.8 mp 5DC as a backup body. They're stunned that a working pro has a body with fewer megapixels than their Rebel or 7D. You're kidding yourself if these kind of consumers have any idea of the different sensor sizes manufacturers offer. They just put their cameras in full Auto mode, and fire away. 

If you can't distinguish the difference in image quality between a 1.6:1 and full-frame body, why spend the premium for a FF body? It's the same reason why I talk people out of buying DSLRs and suggest that they stick with point-and-shoots, on countless occasions. If this rumored entry-level, "lower mp" camera is real, that's the question Canon's marketing department is going to have to answer.


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## Rocky (Sep 20, 2011)

V8Beast said:


> [When I'm on assignment, people are shocked to find out that I keep a lowly 12.8 mp 5DC as a backup body. They're stunned that a working pro has a body with fewer megapixels than their Rebel or 7D. If this rumored entry-level, "lower mp" camera is real, that's the question Canon's marketing department is going to have to answer.


If you keep your lowly12.8 MP 5DC as back up, would you like to have a New 12.8MP FF (with all the new Technology from the 7D snsor) to give you better DR, lower noise, even if it is a low priced body as your back up???
I think Canon is right to have a lower MP FF with better DR better noise than the existing 5D II. Whether it is low prince or not, it remained to be seen. If Canon can make a $600 Rebel, I am sure tha tit Canon make a $1500 FF. It is just depends on how canon play the marketing game. The $600 Rebel has not kill the $1600 7D yet.


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## lol (Sep 20, 2011)

I'd like to remind everyone the *rumour* is that the new camera might have "less than expected" MP, not "less than current". The trade-offs are not as simple as some people seem to think, and optimisations for factors other than "image quality" may bias that towards more or less MP.

Also on V8Beast's post below, personally I don't see a significant difference in "big picture" like for like comparisons between crop and FF. Yes, the differences are there at pixel level, but who looks at pixels? The big differentiator to me is the shallower DoF potential of a bigger sensor, which is harder to replicate with smaller sensors unless you use stupidly fast lenses or a bucket load of photoshop.


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## V8Beast (Sep 20, 2011)

Rocky said:


> If you keep your lowly12.8 MP 5DC as back up, would you like to have a New 12.8MP FF (with all the new Technology from the 7D snsor) to give you better DR, lower noise, even if it is a low priced body as your back up???



Absolutely, but I already decided long ago that a FF sensor is better suited for what I shoot. It's not people like me Canon needs to convince. It's the people shopping for a Rebel, xxD or 7D that need to be convinced that it's worth it to pay a premium for a FF sensor. This rumored entry-level FF camera might be "low priced" compared to what photo enthusiasts are accustomed to, but if it's priced between the 7D and 5DII, it will be considered very pricy for people in the market for a Rebel or xxD.


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## V8Beast (Sep 20, 2011)

lol said:


> Also on V8Beast's post below, personally I don't see a significant difference in "big picture" like for like comparisons between crop and FF. Yes, the differences are there at pixel level, but who looks at pixels?



It really depends what you shoot and what purpose you shoot it for. For editorial work, how the photographer envisions a story layout while looking through the viewfinder - and therefore how he composes a shot - and how the art director actually lays out the image, are often very different. As such, it's not uncommon for an image to be cropped substantially. For instance, I might compose an image to be used as a two-page spread, and leave lots of dead space around the subject for text. If the art director chooses not to use the image how I envisioned, and heavily crops into the image, then the limitations of the file become much more exaggerated. 

Even so, this isn't something most people stepping up from a point-and-shoot to a Rebel/xxD need to worry about, so why pay a premium for a FF sensor? Furthermore, certain forms of photography are more demanding than others in terms of dynamic range and high ISO requirements, so it's impossible to make blanket statements like "FF sensors are always superior to 1.6:1 sensors." Most images people take these days just sit on a hard drive, and only geeks like us pixel peep, so again, Canon would have it's work cut out for it to convince people to sacrifice megapixels for sensor size.


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## Bob Howland (Sep 20, 2011)

V8Beast said:


> lol said:
> 
> 
> > Also on V8Beast's post below, personally I don't see a significant difference in "big picture" like for like comparisons between crop and FF. Yes, the differences are there at pixel level, but who looks at pixels?
> ...



Which is why I think the entry level FF camera and the low MP Lord of Darkness FF camera will be two different cameras. Needing a LOD camera and being willing to give up pixels to get high ISO image quality and DR requires a level of sophistication that the average Rebel buyer just doesn't have. Most have no idea what DR is and many are surprised by the notion that different models of P&S's and DSLR's may have differently sized sensors. I think the LOD camera will be targeted toward wedding photographers.


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## mikahyva (Sep 20, 2011)

I dont believe in consumer FF body in near future, simply because it would make EF-S line lenses obsolete. FF bodies are better for most purposes, but the human behind the camera is more important than the equipment in front of the human.


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## Rocky (Sep 22, 2011)

mikahyva said:


> I dont believe in consumer FF body in near future, simply because it would make EF-S line lenses obsolete. FF bodies are better for most purposes, but the human behind the camera is more important than the equipment in front of the human.


Just the opposite, If Canon comes up with a sub-$1200 FF boby, People will buy it. As for lenses, a lot of people are using EF (not EF-S) lens even with the APS-C sensors. Or people just buy new lenses with their new FF body. Canon will sell more EF lenses by having "reasonable priced" FF body. It is a Win-Win situation for Canon.


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## mikahyva (Sep 24, 2011)

Well I dont see that making a very trusting customers. Maybe if they do with APS-C similar SLR-bodies. If someone just needs more "Tele" end of the camera mechanics, still this sounds stupid. Maybe they could make FF Body that can handle the EF-S lenses too


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