# Canon Mirrorless Far Off?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 6, 2010)

```
<strong>Beyond 2011?</strong>

Itâ€™s said Canon has introduced a 3rd camera category to its internal designations; DSLR, compact and mirrorless.</p>
<p>However, there is no current timeline or product to fit into the mirrorless category.</p>
<p>Weâ€™ve heard in the past that any mirrorless solution would be in the distant future i.e. 2012.</p>
<p><strong>Source [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_aps-c_compact.html"><em>NL</em></a>]</strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong>
```


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## scalesusa (Nov 6, 2010)

My first 35mm Camera was a Argus C3 waaaaaaaaaay back in the early 1960's. It was wonderful, I mostly took color slides. But, when I compare those slides to even a relatively simple point and shoot today, they look poor by comparison. 

I think I'd like a digital rangefinder, but for my product photography in a studio, I use live veiw almost exclusively, viewing the image on a 24 inch monitor with 5X magnification, live histogram, and depth of field preview lets me tweak it until it is just what I want. Getting the right image the first time saves tons of time in post processing. As long as a Mirrorless can do that, I'd be happy to use it both in and out of the studio.


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## x-vision (Nov 6, 2010)

Canon has not filed a single patent for a mirrorless camera. 
At the same time, Nikon has been filing patent after patent for mirrorless. 

Based on this, I'd say that Canon has no plans whatsoever for a mirrorless camera at this time.


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## c.d.embrey (Nov 6, 2010)

x-vision said:


> Canon has not filed a single patent for a mirrorless camera.
> At the same time, Nikon has been filing patent after patent for mirrorless.
> 
> Based on this, I'd say that Canon has no plans whatsoever for a mirrorless camera at this time.



Thom Hogan has just posted his predictions for 2011 http://www.bythom.com/2011predictions.htm He has prediction for ALL camera manufactuers.

"Canon *missed a memo* somewhere. The camera *market is changing*, but they seem stuck on *executing on the old memo.* Basically: more pixels, more video, same camera."

and: "Both Panasonic and Sony now have dedicated video cameras derived from their *mirrorless* camera systems. ...Of the video companies, Canon is *conspicuously absent* from this trend."

Looking a what Canon has done (or not done) this year makes me think that Mr Hogan and *x-vision* may be right.


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## Grendel (Nov 6, 2010)

Patents are usually filled as close to release as possible. You don't want to let the competition know what you are up to earlier than absolutely necessary..


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## spam (Nov 6, 2010)

Canon Rumors said:


> Beyond 2011?



No CR-rating on this one, does that mean it's pure speculation and not based on any real info at all. You wouldn't even rate it as CR1?


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## lol (Nov 6, 2010)

If you look at history, Canon have been rather good at keeping their secret to themselves. Half believable rumours don't appear until the product is practically finished and near shipping.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2010)

May be canon is avoiding the mirrorless for the following reasons:
1. In order to make it coat pocketable ,It need to come up with a new set of lenses. It will be a big expense for canon.
2. In order to do it right, the sensor must be at least APS-C size. Couples with a thin body, it will have the Dark-Corner problem without infringing into the pattern by Sony and Leica. The best that Canon can do is to use the software solution. 
3. Auto focusing time is more than twice the DSLR, based on existing technology.
4. The price of mirrorless may be higher than the entry level DSLR. Most people given a choice will ends up with a DSLR instead of a mirrorless.
5. Canon already has both G12 and S95, both are regarded as the best "pocketable camera.
6. Mirrorless with a good zoom lens will not be pocketable anyway.


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## goodmane (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't care what internal or external reasons are causing the delay. 

The idea that the G series or S series can currently compete with micro four thirds is limited and will get worse over the next few months. 

Canon's slowness threatens their DSLR market a little I think. Personally with 5D, 24-70, three Canon flashes and a G9, I am heavily invested in Canon - at least for an amateur I think. 

I was thrilled with the G9 when it seemed like the serious amateurs were being listened to. i.e. we wanted a black, dial-laden camera with hotshoe and optical viewfinder in around 2007. It needed a usable raw mode. Canon delivered when at the time the only alternatives were out of production e.g. Canon Pro 1 or G5. 

Now, I use the G9 with a 580EX all the time when I'm on holiday with family / friends. No way will I bring an SLR, it ruins the mood. The G9 works fine I suppose. But the pictures suck a bit, not to most people, but to me, I see the limitations of the sensor and the lens (apart from when its at 35mm equiv, but even then dynamic range and flexibility of pushing files is not great). 

Nothing in the G10 / 11 / 12 will make the limitations of the small sensor go away. My ideal small camera at this point is a Panasonic GF1 with a pancake lens. BUT I don't want to give up ETTL flash which I really like, and the ability of the camera to fulfil the role of backup if my 5D buggers up or I want a second body e.g. for a wedding. 

I will wait for a Canon alternative with large sensor, but not forever.


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## J-Man (Nov 8, 2010)

I think the whole mirrorless camera thing caught Canon sleeping,
I don't think making a whole new line of lenses would stop canon,
Not making a return on investment would.
Canon is already 2 generations behind, waiting till 2012 will put them at least 1 more behind. I sure hope they release one next year.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2010)

J-Man said:


> I think the whole mirrorless camera thing caught Canon sleeping,
> I don't think making a whole new line of lenses would stop canon,
> Not making a return on investment would.
> Canon is already 2 generations behind, waiting till 2012 will put them at least 1 more behind. I sure hope they release one next year.



May be Canon is smart to stay away from mirrorless for a while for the following reason.
1. There are 6 or 7 APS-C mirrorless camera out there that generates a lot of attention. But are they really selling well? Are they making money, after the the R & D cost???
2. None of them is really coat pocketable with the lens.
3. Focusing speed is terrible, even compare to the entry DSLR.
4. Weight saving is also minimal, compared to entry level DSLR.
5. Cost is comparable to entry level DSLR.
6. You will need a camera bag for either Mirrorless or DSLR.
7. May be Canon is waiting for a technology breakthrough or trying to improve the existing technology.

I actually will like to have a mirrorless camera with the following:
1. APS-C sensor with even explosure all the way to the corner. Canon should get the offset micro mirror technology from Leica plus the software adjustment.
2. Focusing time equals to the existing DSLR. If it cannot be done, then Canon should have lenses that have fine manual focusing with depth of field scale like the lenses in the old film days. With these, we can use the zone focusing technique and have NO focusing delay.
3. Some prime pancake lens to make the camera really coat pocketable.
4. The camera body design should be taken a page from the Fuji mirrorless (start from ground up, make it small and still comfortable in the hand, and use classic range finder camera as a model. Also canon should also get the hybrid view finder from Fuji).
If such a camera exist, I will pay $2000 for it. It sure beats the $7000 price tag of the Leica M9.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2010)

Dilbert,
I do not need to quote URL on every statement that I have made. Did you look at the Sony APS-C mirrorless. a blind man can see how big the lens is. Will you put it in you coat pocket?? Read the Image Resources test. You will find out the focusing speed is about 0.5 second. Look at the weight with the lens and compare it with the XSi with the kit lens. Compare the price of the two while you are at it. as for camera bag. Will you dangle a camera at you chest all the time without any protection??? i do not need any authority, just common sense.

If you want to pick on me on any statement, go ahead, make my day. I know you got nothing better to do. So it will just be my entertainment. So go ahead and be a court jester and entertain me.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2010)

Dilbert, If you think my all 6 points are all wrong, you are welcome to prove that I am wrong. You do not say some one is wrong until you can prove him wrong. That is just simple good citizenship. if you do not have it I feel sorry for you.


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## lol (Nov 8, 2010)

Coat pocketable - yes they are. I keep my E-P1 in my fleece with either the kit zoom, or more often the Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 pancake. The kit zoom does stick out a bit, but the pancake is better. I wouldn't say no if they were smaller, so I think the recently announced GF2 is a step in the right direction. I don't find a need for a dedicated case or bag, where I do for any DSLR.

Focus speed - for stationary subjects they are about the same as a DSLR now. They are hopeless if the subject is moving, where I'd pick a DSLR every time. Personally I really hate the m4/3 manual focus system, especially on their focus by wire lenses.

Weight saving - well, my "normal" camera is a 7D so there is a huge weight saving from that! But certainly it will be a much smaller gap to lower bodies.

Cost is certainly an issue right now. I do think there is room for more price drops there, which will happen as the competition heats up.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2010)

dilbert said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > Ummmm, I don't think that anyone else but you is thinking that Sony's DSLR with the APS-C sensor is the type of mirror-less camera that this thread is about.
> ...


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2010)

dilbert said:


> With what authority do you make that claim?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who gave you the authority to write such a mean post????


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## unexposure (Nov 8, 2010)

Samsung NX10 body weights about 350g without battery, rebel xs weights about 450g - so weight is pretty compareable here. Sony Nex3 is about 300g with battery, same as Panasonic GF2 - about half the weight of rebel xs.

Body of NX10 measures 123Ã—87Ã—39.8mm, while rebel XS measures ca. 126,1 x 97,5 x 61,9 mm - pretty much compareable. too. Sony Nex3 is 117 x 63 x 33mm and Panasonic GF2 is 113 x 68 x 33 mm which I'd say both are the "winners" in being small.


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## unexposure (Nov 8, 2010)

dilbert said:


> But
> Hmm, dpreview says the Rebel XS is 502g without a battery?
> 
> But yes, it seems like everyone except for one person has the same idea when it comes to the type of camera this thread is about


Canon says that it's 450g Body only 

But yes, I think, regarding some of Rockys Points, he might be right.

- I wouldn't put a Cam in my Pockets too. I see what doing so does to my mobile phone and I just don't trust electronics that much.  Though, it's a completely different thing to put a Nex oder whatever in the Pocket of your Jacket than a agfa Iso Rapid or another pretty small film cam - they just don't have a display that might be damaged by the keys, coins or whatever you're carrying in the same pocket. And regarding the "inner" Bags of a Jacket, Nex&Co are still to heavyweight to just have em around - a p&s like ixus n stuff would be much more worthy in this position. even a G-Series migth fulfill this category if it was some cm smaller and some g ligther.

- the lack of current Canon pancakes - if there won't be a pancake lens for a mirrorless canon, I wouldn't even consider buying it; with a "regular-sized" zoom-lens (or even the fixed ones) in Nex-Size (ok, panasonic does the job quite well) or NX-Size (the pancake is not yet available as of my information), the whole "save space"-philosophy goes down the drain.

- cost is a point, rocky's definatly right on: The very cheapest (in germany) is the Pen E-P1, which is the only one in the whole fleet, that goes below in price of rebel xs and there are only a few models in between rebel xs/nikon d3000 to rebel t1i/nikon d5000 which both succeeds the technical limits of "low budget"-mirrorless by far.

on the other hand, the statement, that mirrorless might not be selling so good isn't true. Mirrorless sells extremly well. Kakaku.com has a pretty good study done about the marketshares of mirrorless in the dslr-market which comes to the conclosure, that in japan, mirrorless is about to reach 40% marketshare - and here we go: the biggest loosers are canon and nikon.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2010)

Unexposure, Thanks. Regarding the market share of mirrorless, what you have seen in the website is "search trend" not buying trend. That seems to be agreeing with my point #1. mirrorless did generate a lot of interest. You are welcome to correct me if I am wrong. My question about if it is selling well is really based on my own observation on a few cruise ships and on land where the ships docked ( Europe, Asia and Canada) in this year. I have seen a lot of DSLR and "P & S", but only a few mirror less. I have also seen the same trend in U.S. What is your observation in Germany??? By the way Besides my DSLR I do have a Ixus (SD870 in US). The factory case is a little bit too big for my taste. Just by pure luck, I have found a soft leather case with a belt loop that fits it like a glove and has a minimal outside pocket for the spare battery. So the SD870 with the leather case are either in my pant pocket or on my belt


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## ronderick (Nov 9, 2010)

Here's an interview during the Photokina period with one of the big guys at Canon by Japan's Digicamera Watch:

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20100925_396112.html

With my limited knowledge of Japanese (maybe someone can come up with a more accurate translation), I think he pointed out that Canon's decision of not getting involved with EVIL at this point is that the performance of these types of cameras is still a bit lacking.

He mentiond autofocus speed, control response, release lag, and EVF ("EVFの見え味や遅延") as areas requiring improvements.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2010)

The following is a Google translated version: (Camera has been translated into Aircraft)
(some Translation are off, but we can guess what it really mean)
- If you want to focus on shooting video, I propose that it may approach another new system camera mirror-less machine.

For mirror-less aircraft, a method for me to meet the needs of miniaturized and have been answered one way I think. Improvements from the list Refukamerayuza SLR, it will always rise above smaller and lighter. Apart from the presence of the mirror, in a compact camera, but we all thoroughly, and for certain demographic, demand has not been yet. Is at once respond to the needs and potential of these smaller, less I think it mirrors the current system of aircraft. As long as interchangeable lenses, it is assumed that the performance drop of as a camera, possibly with the assumption of mirror-less, technology development has been conducted.

What plans there are commercialized?

If you make a machine inside the mirror-less Canon shall not have this much performance and functionality, we believe that a clear distinction. Comes out the possibility of product performance is clear that if asked, can not clear at this time.

Performance in it will mean to you?

The basic speed of auto focus, response operations, Rerizuragu, EVF or delay the appearance of taste, is comprehensive. SLR cameras are using and comfortable, fast and feels just like I think it is important to use comfortably.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2010)

dilbert said:


> But yes, it seems like everyone except for one person has the same idea when it comes to the type of camera this thread is about



Dilbert,

What type of camera on this tread are you thinking about????


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## unexposure (Nov 9, 2010)

dilbert said:


> Never put a compact camera in your pocket?
> Never bought a small, snug, camera sized camera case for a compact camera?
> Never bought one of those plastic stick on covers for your iPhone/iPad?
> 
> ...


I usually keep my phone in the right front-pocket of my pants. my keys goes there, too. on the left front pocket I carry my cigarettes, lighter and an usb-stick. the rear-right pocket is reserved for the money bag. only free bag would be rear-left - but putting some device in there would be pretty unclever, since it surely would break if I'd sit down. ;-)

Some words on protection-screens: I personally don't like em. I had sticked a pretty expensive "plastic-glass" (don't know the right word) on the rear of a t1i. One day last summer, the glueing loosened by the heat and the glue ran allover the display-screen and parts of the camera-plastics, ruining the whole back of the cam. something similar happend with a foil-based protective for an older mobilephone.
This makes me use this sort of things never ever again - and considering this - 60d flipscreen REALLY makes sense to me. :-D

and yes, I do own an ixus digital. I do put it in my pocket. I protect it by stuffing it in a old childrens-sock. 



> You're worried about the a lens that doesn't exist for a camera that doesn't yet exist? So if the camera that doesn't exist comes to exist, surely the lens that also doesn't exist could also then exist?


Point taken.



> > on the other hand, the statement, that mirrorless might not be selling so good isn't true. Mirrorless sells extremly well.
> 
> 
> This must be a lie because they're not cheap enough for people to prefer them over bottom rung DSLRs.


40% Buying interest, as stated by Kakaku, about 20% actually buying it, according to a pretty current bcnranking-analysis found here. 
People seem to not take the mirrorless cams over the "common" entry-level dslr, but all added up together, it's a pretty big market-share. as it's said on a press-review of the kakaku-statement, the market for mirrorless is growing but not really grabbing, which means, that on the one hand, you've got the classical dslr-market, where canon and nikon are the clear leaders - but the market doesn't really grow. On the other hand, theres the Niche of mirrorless exploding in growth which lets the whole market grow. the "new" customers find themselfes counted in this market-part.

And if the growth of mirrorless-market goes on exploding this way, i'd say in about 2 years at least, we'll nearly see a 60/40-share of the market.


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## goodmane (Nov 9, 2010)

I agree it would be nice to see a decent, preferably low cost pancake from canon, both for mirrorless and for eos.

Years ago I borrowed the Canon 70-300 DO (diffractive optics) lens. It's not that bad, and if they could pull off a tiny 28-70 DO for a mirrorless camera with good micro-contrast and colors, that would interest me.

Alternatively if Canon were to simply upgrade the G series to APS-C keeping a fixed lens of 35-70mm equiv, and include a large viewfinder like the old film compacts, that would be awesome, and also pretty retro in a non-rangefinder way! I would definitely buy such a camera.


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## Justin (Nov 9, 2010)

I kind of think Canon is going to be too late to the party to make it theirs. Panasonic will have a third GF series out by then if not a fourth. GH-2 is looking promising. The exception will be if Canon can make improvements in terms of speed, then I think it may be successful. Otherwise why enter this market? If Canon are going to enter they better do it soon. I tried m43 with the original Pen and found it lacking so I returned it. I'm getting close to hopping to Panasonic, just need a GF-3. I know I'm not alone. I wish Canon would go upmarket instead and give us a modular system. 

That new Kodak CCD 29 mpx sensor seems mighty interesting.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2010)

dilbert said:


> Ummmm, I don't think that anyone else but you is thinking that Sony's DSLR with the APS-C sensor is the type of mirror-less camera that this thread is about.



Dilbert, You Just have made up your own conclusion. In all the discusion, I have never mention anything about Sony mirrorless DSLR. The example that I have quoted is the Sony NEX-5. ( the Sony mirrorless with abig lens)We are all talking about the same group of cameras.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2010)

The next acceptable mirrorless camera should be at least a APS-C sensor. Within this forum, a lot of people are saying that thier DSLR must be full frame, or they want to move from APS-C DSLR to FF. do you think they will selltle for a 4/3 sensor.


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## unexposure (Nov 9, 2010)

dilbert said:


> > This makes me use this sort of things never ever again - and considering this - 60d flipscreen REALLY makes sense to me. :-D
> 
> 
> Now I'd like to see you get *that* in your pants pocket!


Haha, nice try... as I'm using bg-e9, putting this cam in the pants pocket would be like squeezing a bus through the front door of a house. ;-)

What I was referring to, was that "protective plastic" won't touch a display of mine anymore. And in this way, I'm pretty glad, that the display of 60d has some build-in protection when it has to struggle around with pencils, ballpens and loads of other tiny stuff flying around in the bag. I usually don't have the time to sort everything up right when I'm doing my job. Cameras are pretty much tools that I use, but a broken Display makes it a much more unworthy tool. 
And that would be another point for me (personally) to not buy a tiny mirrorless: they don't seem sturdy enough for me, regarding build quality. Sure, rebel-models are far way off to be tanks like 1-series or even xxD or 7d BUT they deliver a higher "durability feeling" than, nex-5 or pen-e models - however, nx10 might be an exeption from this rule, since it really looks sturdy.



> > and yes, I do own an ixus digital. I do put it in my pocket. I protect it by stuffing it in a old childrens-sock.
> 
> 
> I hope it is a clean sock!


Sure, it's a "Protective Allweather-Sports-Sock of ultra Cleanliness Supreme" my Grandma produces them and sells them to Canon which wrap some nice Nylon around em, and print their Logo onto the final product which is in fact a giveaway in addition to the L-Series Lenses, known as Lens-Pouch. Now as you know the truth, go check your L-Lens-Pouch and see on yourself if it smells/isn't clean! :-D



> 60% being...? and 40% being...?


60 percent being the mirrorless, killing big parts of the low-end dslr when availability and price have reached a more consumer-friendly limit.

Don't get me wrong, this is my personal prediction - but for the casual very-amateur that isn't satisfied with p&s, it's a pretty convincing argument to not have to carry around kilos of weight to take pretty much high-end pictures. 

I also see p&s in general beeing a slightly disappearing market-segment. Mobile phones will sooner or later nearly completely take over this part - image quality of iphone, sony-ericsson phones and the latest nokias must be scary for the big p&s providers.
I guess, in a few years, the only ones really buying a dslr will be either professionals or very enthusiast amateurs - the same thing that goes on with canons product alignment. have some very amateur dslr (rebel) at a low price to have time, developing a good concept for evil-style-cams as a whole new segment. parallel to that create some high-quality p&s to get the customers buying, that aren't satisfied with what their phone currently can do. deliver one serios-amateur camera which is an allrounder (60d) and set the new entry-level for professionals one step lower (7d, 5d), while on the other end, setting it one step up (mf perhaps?). 

Nikon's doing pretty similar, currently having d3100 as entry level, then d7000 and then again, only some higher priced models. 
The difference to canon is, that nikon seems to having dropped the d5000 part of their product line as some "filler" in between d3100 and d7000 and canon has dropped rebel xs (1000d) making their xxxD-line the new very-low-end. 

But, as I said, these are my personal thoughts about this. There's nothing I can prove about this, it's just guessing.


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## c.d.embrey (Nov 10, 2010)

There are two types of Non-DSLR interchangeable lens cameras.
1) Sony Nex, Olympus Pen and Panasonic GF1/GF2 are interchangeable lens P&S cameras.

2) Panasonic G/GH cameras with EVF. This is the only true mirror-less cameras.

If you need a zoom lens, no m4/3 or APS-C camera will be pocketable. Want a pocketable camera use a pancake prime like the Panasonic 20mm f1.7.


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2010)

May be I should jump into the 'crystal ball" business also. 5 years from now on, entry level of point and shoot will disappear. (replaced by smart phone). Mirrorless (EVIL) and entry level DSLR (APS-C) will survive and doing well. Evil type get a lot cheaper and better (another reason for the entry level P & S to disappear). Picture quality of APS-C sensor DSLR will rival the FF of 2010. Mid-range DSLR (like 7D etc) will perish, due to too much overlapping in function with entry level DSLR and high price. Professional DSLR will survive as FF only due to faster processor and faster frame rate. APS-H will not be needed for speed. As for MF, the market share will shrink due to the improvement of the FF professional DSLR


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## scalesusa (Nov 11, 2010)

If I had a reasonably accurate crystal ball, I'd be out spending my lottery winnings, not posting about what camera models might spec out at 5 years from now


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## Gothmoth (Nov 11, 2010)

olympus has mirrorless cameras and is suffering.

http://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-and-olympus-financial-reports-making-less-money-with-cameras/

with the current technology only amateurs would buy a mirrorless "DSLR".

itÂ´s not about being the first but doing it right.
i can easily wait until canon does it RIGHT.


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## Rocky (Nov 12, 2010)

Gothmoth said:


> olympus has mirrorless cameras and is suffering.
> 
> http://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-and-olympus-financial-reports-making-less-money-with-cameras/
> 
> ...


Dilbert, 
That just prove my point #1. (Are mirrorless really making money??)


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## michael (Nov 14, 2010)

I realize it's not a DSLR but one of Canon's early attempts at a mirror-less camera was the Canon Pro1. The Pro 1 even came with a built in L lens.

At one time it was around $800.00, squarely in the mid price point for DSLR's today.

However is was very slow, had a hard time focusing, the shutter lag was/is nerve rackingly slow. Sure cameras have come a long way since 2004 but in many ways this was a great first attempt.

Here are the details from a review site. http://www.shuttertalk.com/articles/canonpro1


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