# 46.1mp Canon DSLR Previewed at PhotoPlus 2012? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 22, 2012)

```
<div name="googleone_share_1" style="position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;"><g:plusone size="tall" count="1" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/09/46-1mp-canon-dslr-previewed-at-photoplus-2012-cr1/"></g:plusone></div><div class="tweetmeme_button" style="float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;"><a class="tm_button" rel="&style=normal&b=2" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/09/46-1mp-canon-dslr-previewed-at-photoplus-2012-cr1/"></a></div>
<strong>The Big Megapixel EOS


</strong>Similar information has been sent to [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_3d.html" target="_blank">NL</a>], that a 46.1mp Canon DSLR will be previewed at PhotoPlus 2012 in New York City between October 24 – October 27, 2012.</p>
<p>We’ve had a couple of sources confirm that a 46mp prototype Canon DSLR is in the wild, though not claimed to be anywhere near production ready. Do not expect availability until well into 2013.</p>
<p><strong>The Specs</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>46.1mp Full Frame</li>
<li>5 FPS</li>
<li>ISO 100-12800</li>
<li>16bit</li>
</ul>
<div><strong>Source: [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_3d.html" target="_blank">NL</a>]</strong></div>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Albi86 (Sep 22, 2012)

A 1D body, I assume?


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## DB (Sep 22, 2012)

Has to be FF sensor with pixel size of about 4.3 microns so very close to current 7D. Perhaps a FF 7D2 after all?


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## willis (Sep 22, 2012)

Will it be that rumored 4D?


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## nicku (Sep 22, 2012)

Finally some relative credible rumors and 16 bit. I believe will be in a 5D3 Body (not 1D) aimed directly to studio work. At those specs will be at around $ 5K.
For what i do... regarding photography... 46 MP is a blessing from haven

I really, really hope this will be true


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## zim (Sep 22, 2012)

46mp @5fps wow wonder what the buffer will be if true, and shudder to think what the price will be bet it will make the 5D3 entry price look like a real bargin! good to see though


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## heptagon (Sep 22, 2012)

At least this promises to gain back some DR in print.


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## preppyak (Sep 22, 2012)

DB said:


> Has to be FF sensor with pixel size of about 4.3 microns so very close to current 7D. Perhaps a FF 7D2 after all?


So, they will take their current APS-C sports camera and turn it into a high MP landscape camera? Seems rather silly to me.

I'd expect a name with a number lower than 5 (4d, 3d, 1ds, etc). 46mp and 5fps tells me it'll cost more than the 5dIII as well


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 22, 2012)

That does seem to be consistent with other reasonable rumors I've read over the past several weeks.


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## DB (Sep 22, 2012)

preppyak said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > Has to be FF sensor with pixel size of about 4.3 microns so very close to current 7D. Perhaps a FF 7D2 after all?
> ...



Yeah, you're probably right, it could be a 4D, but the low ISO range of 100 to 12,800 and not 50 to 51,200 or 101,400 threw me. Is this going to be a $4,999 EOS 4D designed for Studio or outdoor Landscape photography where low-light is not an issue? The 7D2 and 70D have seemed to fallen off-radar...


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## PaulTopol (Sep 22, 2012)

Should I sell my 1dx??

Very confused: 18mpx for $7000.00
46mpx for HOW MUCH?

Paul


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## preppyak (Sep 22, 2012)

DB said:


> Yeah, you're probably right, it could be a 4D, but the low ISO range of 100 to 12,800 and not 50 to 51,200 or 101,400 threw me. Is this going to be a $4,999 EOS 4D designed for Studio or outdoor Landscape photography where low-light is not an issue?


Yeah, I mean, of the professions that need low-light, how many of them need 46mp? Wedding photogs and PJ types don't. Most sports guys wouldn't, and if they did, 5fps wouldn't be fast enough anyway (I think they'd take 12fps at 18MP).

I guess the use case would be astrophotographers who want to be able to shoot at 12,800 and print big. But that is such a small niche within the larger group of landscapers that I think they'd focus on low-ISO levels. Heck, most landscapers would probably take extra DR right now over the ability to use 25,600.

They did the same thing with the 1Dmk3 and 1DsMk3 I believe

edit: Yeah, the 1D3 was announced in Feb at 10MP with ISO 100-3200 and 10fps, the 1Ds3 came out in Aug at 21mp with ISO 100-1600 and 5fps.


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## preppyak (Sep 22, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> i really don´t know what people need ISO 25600 and above.
> 
> and i wonder how these people have worked before.....


Not so much a need, but, if you're shooting a ISO 6400 and 1/15th second, you'd have to use flash in the past. Now, you can push to 25,600 and get the 1/60th shutter speed you need. Makes shooting a wedding or on the street a lot more flexible.


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 22, 2012)

PaulTopol said:


> Should I sell my 1dx??
> 
> Very confused: 18mpx for $7000.00
> 46mpx for HOW MUCH?
> ...



Oh Lord. The 1DX isn't for megapixels. Have you used one for sports? If you bought it for landscape and portrait at low ISO, you wasted your money big time.


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## RGomezPhotos (Sep 22, 2012)

Interesting... And awesome. It would be like the Canon 5DMK2 big brother. This would be a great studio camera and a pretty good 'everyday' camera if you use smaller RAW file sizes. At 5fps, that's good for just about anything. I love the high ISO of the 5DMK3 for some of the evening work I do, but they made too many compromises in it (no user-replaceable focus screen, slow SD card performance, no built-in WiFi)

With the price of the 5DMK3 dropping like a rock, we could see the price on that camera be between $2500 - $2700 a year from now. Which is the price I thought it should've been from the beginning. The 46MP monster would be priced around $3500 - $4000 I would think.

While expensive, this could be the camera I wanted the 5DMK3 to be. For non-magazine work, I would just step down the RAW sizes. I would think that for the price and the market this would be geared for, it would have dual CF slots and replaceable focus screen for expensive, manual focus fast primes. Hopefully it comes with an AF system equal to the 7D or better for those times when I need it.

I eagerly await for October....


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 22, 2012)

I eagerly await a true 1Ds Mark IV as well, which is what this camera should be called, but obviously CANNOT be called that now. Who knows about the name, but I bet $5k price.


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## Richard Lane (Sep 22, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> well i take pictures with a dslr for 7 years now.
> 95% of my pictures are taken with ISO under 6400.
> 
> i really don´t know what people need ISO 25600 and above.
> ...



Good question! Sometimes ISO 25,600 is necessary for shooting sports at night in order to achieve high shutter-speeds. I was frequently using the 1D MKIV at ISO 12,800 f/2.8 and 1/1000sec for night games in order to freeze the athlete, and those settings were for decent lighting.

If the stadium lighting was poor, then I could slow down my SS to 1/800sec or 1/500sec and risk getting subject motion blur, or now on the 1DX, I could increase my ISO to 25,600 and apply some further noise reduction in post.

Another benefit would be, if you need to add a 1.4X teleconverter which drops the maximum aperture to f/4, then the higher ISO will also come in handy due to the loss of an f-stop.

Rich


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## distant.star (Sep 22, 2012)

.
So, October 2012 will be the pre-announcement announcement.

Then summer/fall 2013 will be the announcement.

Shipping by early 2014 for sure? Almost sure?

Lots of time to "save up" meanwhile -- start cutting grass and shoveling snow, youngsters.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Sep 22, 2012)

that sounds to be an impressive body! And actually, this has me liking the 6d a little bit more... The 'new' 6d sensor may very well be based on this sensor? Either way, this isn't what I need, but yeah, I do want...lol


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 22, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, you're probably right, it could be a 4D, but the low ISO range of 100 to 12,800 and not 50 to 51,200 or 101,400 threw me. Is this going to be a $4,999 EOS 4D designed for Studio or outdoor Landscape photography where low-light is not an issue?
> ...



Night sports. For instances when everyone else has stopped shooting and you're firing away at 1/1000s and printing 8 x 10's. That's what it's for.


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## RLPhoto (Sep 22, 2012)

If its a 5Dx for 4099$. I'm so buying one. ;D


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## Fishnose (Sep 22, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, you're probably right, it could be a 4D, but the low ISO range of 100 to 12,800 and not 50 to 51,200 or 101,400 threw me. Is this going to be a $4,999 EOS 4D designed for Studio or outdoor Landscape photography where low-light is not an issue?
> ...



*And I wonder how people got around before, when there were no cars...... yes, they got around, but it took a while and was a LOT more difficult.

Get my point?*


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2012)

zim said:


> 46mp @5fps wow wonder what the buffer will be if true, and shudder to think what the price will be bet it will make the 5D3 entry price look like a real bargin! good to see though



I'd love a 32MP at 7fps and good low iso DR and 4k video in C300-style blocks even more ;D ;D ;D.

Or 39MP and 6fps and good low ISO DR. losing the 1 fps to go 39MP to 46MP is not worth it. at 6fps it can also do action much better than at 5fps.

But anyway it may be a very nice cam 46 5fps mix in top low ISO DR and 5D3 AF and 5D3 size (please not a 1 series brick). And at least 5fps starts getting you there. It would be awesome if they gave it a crop mode so you don't need to waste so much space on far off subjects and boosted fps to 6-8fps for crop mode. All that and it makes the D800 look pretty weak. Lot of IFs though. Wonder what kind of video they can get out of a 46MP sensor though.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2012)

PaulTopol said:


> Should I sell my 1dx??
> 
> Very confused: 18mpx for $7000.00
> 46mpx for HOW MUCH?
> ...



5fps ain't 12fps!!


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## pwp (Sep 22, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, you're probably right, it could be a 4D, but the low ISO range of 100 to 12,800 and not 50 to 51,200 or 101,400 threw me. Is this going to be a $4,999 EOS 4D designed for Studio or outdoor Landscape photography where low-light is not an issue?
> ...



Yes most photographers would shoot the majority of their work under 6400iso, probably under 800iso. But having the option of ramping up to 12,800iso or beyond in fading or very low light to still deliver shots for your client is a godsend. 

-PW


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## DB (Sep 22, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> I eagerly await a true 1Ds Mark IV as well, which is what this camera should be called, but obviously CANNOT be called that now. Who knows about the name, but I bet $5k price.


Bet they call it the 4Ds Mark I ;D and it will certainly not cost a cent less than $4,999 (well initially)


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## rh81photo (Sep 22, 2012)

really? THIS camera gets 5fps and the 6D doesn't? at 16bit per pixel that means 3.7GBit/s transfer speed into ram...the 1DX at 18MP with 14bit per pixel at 14fps calculates to 3.5GBits/s

that means its gonna cost more than the 5DmkIII...much closer to the 1DX I think. 4500-5500 bucks I guess.
4D as a name sounds plausible regarding recent 4D-name-spottings in app-screenshots.


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## tron (Sep 23, 2012)

preppyak said:


> I guess the use case would be astrophotographers who want to be able to shoot at 12,800 and print big.


Astrophotographers want low noise. Shooting at the high end of the rumored available ISO (12800) should not produce low noise photographs. 5D3 or 1DX are more suitable.


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## well_dunno (Sep 23, 2012)

46.1 mp eh? I imagine that would allow Canon show optical superiority of its lenses in comparison to the competition ( and hopefully not vice cersa )... 

If the specs are true, my guess also would be 5Kish. Cannot see the need for 5fps on a 46 mp camera though... 



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> It would be awesome if they gave it a crop mode so you don't need to waste so much space on far off subjects and boosted fps to 6-8fps for crop mode.


+1 

Let's hope that the rumor at NL few weeks ago becomes true:
_It's suggested that there will be a preview of this camera at a post Photokina event, with the emphasis on resolution, dynamic range and a true challenge to digital MF.
The camera is aimed at showing 'clear technical leadership'._

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_1D_Xs.html


Cheers!


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## DB (Sep 23, 2012)

What about RAW file size, assuming the resolution is correct => 8,142 x 5,428 x 16 = 707,116,416 bits so divide by 8 ( 8 bits = 1 byte) becomes 88,389,552 bytes, so divide by 1,024 to get kilobytes = 86,317 Kb (or about 86MB) per image shot x 5 shots per second equals nearly half a gigabyte of your card gone in just 1 sec, so 30 secs @ hi-speed continuous shooting and your 16GB CF card is full!

edit: had to re-read that was 46.1MP and not 48.1MP


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## drjlo (Sep 23, 2012)

Do we really believe Canon is all of a sudden capable of developing a 46 MP sensor with good iso and great DR? The technology involved in such a beast would have to be far more advanced than the current sesnsors in 5D III and 1DX, and it wouldn't surprise me if D800 outshines it in both high iso (likely, esp with lower MP) and DR (as usual).


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## tron (Sep 23, 2012)

drjlo said:


> Do we really believe Canon is all of a sudden capable of developing a 46 MP sensor with good iso and great DR? The technology involved in such a beast would have to be far more advanced than the current sesnsors in 5D III and 1DX, and it wouldn't surprise me if D800 outshines it in both high iso (likely, esp with lower MP) and DR (as usual).


Now that is a good question! Unless they were almost ready and they were simply getting the most out of their old technology and ... our money! (Which confuses me: Must I use this ;D or that  ?)


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## pmac (Sep 23, 2012)

HAHAHAHA This is so funny, only a few months ago most of you were slating the d800 saying that it was over kill in MP,file size and that 22MP was the ideal number.
Now theres hints of a canon 46MP thats all out the window.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out, I can't see it having such specs with so hi Mp,fps and iso performance.

I wouldn't be surprised if it actual did come out but as more of a MF rival in a larger,extremely expensive body c300 style maybe.


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## wickidwombat (Sep 23, 2012)

nicku said:


> Finally some relative credible rumors and 16 bit. I believe will be in a 5D3 Body (not 1D) aimed directly to studio work. At those specs will be at around $ 5K.
> For what i do... regarding photography... 46 MP is a blessing from haven
> 
> I really, really hope this will be true


I hope you are right if it's true I might get one if iq is good but I'm not interested in a 1d body


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 23, 2012)

pmac said:


> HAHAHAHA This is so funny, only a few months ago most of you were slating the d800 saying that it was over kill in MP,file size and that 22MP was the ideal number.
> Now theres hints of a canon 46MP thats all out the window.
> It will be interesting to see how this pans out, I can't see it having such specs with so hi Mp,fps and iso performance.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if it actual did come out but as more of a MF rival in a larger,extremely expensive body c300 style maybe.



"Most?" That's a fairly unfounded word to use, don't you think? You can count me out of the "most" because I think it's fine the D800 has 36MP, even though I don't personally need 36 MP's.


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## Lee Jay (Sep 23, 2012)

Let me guess - yet another recycling of the T2i/60D/7D/T3i/T4i/ pixels, just in a larger sensor.

18*(1.6*1.6) = 46.1


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 23, 2012)

drjlo said:


> Do we really believe Canon is all of a sudden capable of developing a 46 MP sensor with good iso and great DR? The technology involved in such a beast would have to be far more advanced than the current sesnsors in 5D III and 1DX, and it wouldn't surprise me if D800 outshines it in both high iso (likely, esp with lower MP) and DR (as usual).



Well they did say it would be one of those on the horizon announcements so it may be still 18 months to stores or something which might make it at least a possibility.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 23, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > Finally some relative credible rumors and 16 bit. I believe will be in a 5D3 Body (not 1D) aimed directly to studio work. At those specs will be at around $ 5K.
> ...



Yeah I hope it comes in a nice 5D3-type body, not some 1 series brick.


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## justsomedude (Sep 23, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> Let me guess - yet another recycling of the T2i/60D/7D/T3i/T4i/ pixels, just in a larger sensor.
> 
> 18*(1.6*1.6) = 46.1



The limited ISOs would indicate you are correct. It looks like Canon still can't touch Nikon's (Sony's) EXMOR sensor, otherwise the ISO range would be much greater.

I'd say Canon, for the first time in man years, has definitely taken a back seat in sensor performance to Nikon. I'll wait to see the final product that hits the streets, but those who were waiting for Canon to respond to the D800 may be a little disappointed with the answer they get. Me being one of them.

Here's hoping it's better than 12,800.


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## traveller (Sep 23, 2012)

Based upon these specifications (if true -and they're probably not entirely, if at all ) it looks like this is going to be in a 1-series body. If you look at the interview over at Imaging Resource: 

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/09/20/qa-with-canons-mike-owen-behind-the-scenes-in-developing-the-6D-and-whats (Thanks to Northlight Images for the link] 

it seems that Canon feel that the 20MP class is a 'sweet-spot' for full frame cameras and lenses. Thus, it would be natural for them to view a 40MP class camera as a specialist tool for professionals. This leans towards 1-series in my book... So out of most people's price bracket.


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## Woody (Sep 23, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> Let me guess - yet another recycling of the T2i/60D/7D/T3i/T4i/ pixels, just in a larger sensor.
> 18*(1.6*1.6) = 46.1



That is no necessarily a bad thing IF they can make massive performance to the low ISO dynamic range.

The 16 MP D7000 sensor is an excellent performer, just like the 36 MP D800 sensor:
16*1.5*1.5 = 36


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## DavidRiesenberg (Sep 23, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> Let me guess - yet another recycling of the T2i/60D/7D/T3i/T4i/ pixels, just in a larger sensor.
> 
> 18*(1.6*1.6) = 46.1



Exactly because of that I'm doubting this Rumor. The nu,bers fit way too smoothly.


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## unfocused (Sep 23, 2012)

Well this is pretty much what I've been predicting all along. 

I'm still calling it a 5D HD and believe it will be essentially the same body with a different sensor plopped in. I am surprised at the frame rate, I thought it would be lower. I wonder if they will give over some processing power to the frame rate by putting a more modest autofocus in this one. Not sure the people using this camera will need the 5DIII or 1DX autofocus. I've said it will be the same price as the 5DIII. Possibly it will come in slightly higher, but I don't see this as a 1-series body. 

Yes, as 46mp, this looks like Canon will used the same sensor in this as they use in the next generation of 7D and probably 60D. With three years of experience with the 18mp (46 mp equivalent) it may mean Canon has decided to just improve upon what they already produce instead of trying for ever-more pixels. That's consistent with everything they've been doing the past year (1DX, 5DIII, 6D, T4i). 

This bodes well for 7D users. Canon must deliver acceptable noise for the full frame body (Not sure I'm buying the 12,800 as clean, but if it is good at 6,400 or even 3,200 that would be a significant improvement) and since they'll likely use the same sensor in the 7DII at least, the APS-C version should perform identically.


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## BrandonKing96 (Sep 23, 2012)

What gets me is people thinking this may be cheaper than the 1Dx. If you compared the price of the 1Ds Mark III and 1D Mark IV.. I guess ideas would be more persuaded and logical.
Also, I presume it would be in a 1D type body, if not a 5D body. I don't think it would be the successor of the 7D, because it's completely pointless changing a sports style APS-C into a FF/APS-H (APS-H would be silly for this too) landscape/studio camera. 
I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up be something like a 1Ds Mark IV (would be funny in some way too, I suppose). 
Anyway, I guess the best we can do is wait and see the outcome. 
5 fps for a 46.1mp camera seems quite nice too. But it's going to cost a hell of a lot. I wouldn't be surprised seeing it around the $7,000 mark.


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## elbeasto (Sep 23, 2012)

If this camera ends up being a more expensive body, it's almost like the Nikon and Canon DSLR ranges have been reversed at the high end. D3X becomes the new Canon high MP body and Nikon makes theirs the D800 at a more affordable price.

That aside, I'd love to see what this new body is like, if it's a corker I may get it instead of a 5DIII and keep using my D700 for street and general shooting. The 46MP would be more than a D800 so noise and file size would be a concern of course but for scapes, low light long exposures & architecture it would be very nice to see the advantages.

I'm not quite sure these new 36mm sensors with huge a MP count are really in medium format territory, while they do give a hell of a lot more detail, it's still as many MP packed onto a smaller sensor than MF.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 23, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, you're probably right, it could be a 4D, but the low ISO range of 100 to 12,800 and not 50 to 51,200 or 101,400 threw me. Is this going to be a $4,999 EOS 4D designed for Studio or outdoor Landscape photography where low-light is not an issue?
> ...


 
It all depends on what you are shooting. Not everyone shoots in daylight. Try some low light photography. Its difficult and will let you expand your skills.

The photos below were taken in extremely low light. I really would have needed a battery of flash units otherwise, and they were banned.

ISO 6400







ISO 12800


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 23, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Well this is pretty much what I've been predicting all along.
> 
> I'm still calling it a 5D HD and believe it will be essentially the same body with a different sensor plopped in. I am surprised at the frame rate, I thought it would be lower. I wonder if they will give over some processing power to the frame rate by putting a more modest autofocus in this one. Not sure the people using this camera will need the 5DIII or 1DX autofocus. I've said it will be the same price as the 5DIII. Possibly it will come in slightly higher, but I don't see this as a 1-series body.



Nope because the digic doesn't do AF at all. So no competition there. It could have the same full 5D3 AF (I'd say it better).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 23, 2012)

BrandonKing96 said:


> What gets me is people thinking this may be cheaper than the 1Dx. If you compared the price of the 1Ds Mark III and 1D Mark IV.. I guess ideas would be more persuaded and logical.
> Also, I presume it would be in a 1D type body, if not a 5D body. I don't think it would be the successor of the 7D, because it's completely pointless changing a sports style APS-C into a FF/APS-H (APS-H would be silly for this too) landscape/studio camera.
> I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up be something like a 1Ds Mark IV (would be funny in some way too, I suppose).
> Anyway, I guess the best we can do is wait and see the outcome.
> 5 fps for a 46.1mp camera seems quite nice too. But it's going to cost a hell of a lot. I wouldn't be surprised seeing it around the $7,000 mark.



5D3 is kinda a 1DXs and it costs less than the 1Ds3 or 1DX


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 23, 2012)

DB said:


> Has to be FF sensor with pixel size of about 4.3 microns so very close to current 7D. Perhaps a FF 7D2 after all?



NO, there will never ever be a FF 7D2... 7D is and always will be an APS-C series...stop the madness.


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 23, 2012)

PaulTopol said:


> Should I sell my 1dx??
> 
> Very confused: 18mpx for $7000.00
> 46mpx for HOW MUCH?
> ...



Confused how? Why did you buy a 1Dx in the first place? It is neither a studio camera nor landscape camera so why would you consider selling it for a high MP body aimed at studio/landscape?


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 23, 2012)

Freelancer said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, you're probably right, it could be a 4D, but the low ISO range of 100 to 12,800 and not 50 to 51,200 or 101,400 threw me. Is this going to be a $4,999 EOS 4D designed for Studio or outdoor Landscape photography where low-light is not an issue?
> ...



I agree about the super high end but it's not a question of "how have they worked before?"...it's a point of all the NEW and BETTER work you can do you COULDN'T shoot before in low light, handheld, both with slower lenses etc. The first hour I shot with the 5D3, for example, I realized it was worth twice the price given the ISO performance increase over my 5D2, enabled me to shoot handheld with slower lenses vs. heavy fast primes, for example. I found shooting ISO 6400 on the 5D3 was as clean if not cleaner than ISO 1200 on the 5D2.


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 23, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> PaulTopol said:
> 
> 
> > Should I sell my 1dx??
> ...



I think he's this guy on the left... no clue... Canon 5D vs 1D


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## weixing (Sep 23, 2012)

Hi,


Canon Rumors said:


> 46.1mp Full Frame
> 5 FPS
> ISO 100-12800
> 16bit


 16-bits?? Landscape shooter should be happy, but I can't imagine the file size... file size of 46.1MP at 16-bits should be around 92.2MB per RAW file. Surprise that still can maintain 5fps... must use the 1000x write speed card.

Have a nice day.


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## DzPhotography (Sep 23, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> PaulTopol said:
> 
> 
> > Should I sell my 1dx??
> ...


very good question... :


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## Aglet (Sep 23, 2012)

Watch out for Nikon crew, they're on a roll and they're not done yet.

D5100's 16MP * 1.5 * 1.5 = 36MP D800, and they have very similar base ISO performance

D3200's 24MP * 1.5 * 1.5 = *54MP D4x?*, and would have very similar base ISO performance + all the extra goodness a high end body would add... and that's still over 1 EV better base ISO DR than Canon's current best-tested tho were waiting/hoping the 1Dx and 6D will fare better than the 5d3.

But if they're considering a FF version of the sensor tech used in current 18MP APS-C bodies... Well... no thanks.
Go back to the drawing board, or better yet, the patent office and search for some better tech to license.


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## weixing (Sep 23, 2012)

Hi,


Aglet said:


> Watch out for Nikon crew, they're on a roll and they're not done yet.
> 
> D5100's 16MP * 1.5 * 1.5 = 36MP D800, and they have very similar base ISO performance
> 
> ...


 May be Canon should just use the 120MP APS-H sensor (which are capable of delivering 9.5fps, but I doubt any current CF card can support it) they developed 2 years ago in their camera... ha ha ha ;D

Have a nice day.


----------



## Jumbuck (Sep 23, 2012)

Hi ya people 

Look, let's get down to the nitty gritty. I work for a camera retailer and I can guarantee you that since April the D800 has outsold the 5D Mk3 by a 5 to 1 ratio. This explains recent price drops on the body and the deal struck with the Adorama ebay site. 

Sure, the camera has sold okay, but not in huge quantities like the previous Mk2. I'm pretty sure that Canon has lots of stock sitting in warehouses, just as sure as they would deny this. Sales have just picked up a little recently because of the 5D Mk3 Professional Kit with the 24-70 MkII.

Look, Canon gave us what we asked for and then we snubbed them; decided we wanted everything that we said we didn't need.

The 46mp sensor has been rumoured to have been around for at least two years. Canon obviously held back believing people would definitely be happy with a 22mp, better iso camera. We proved Canon wrong. Look, I believe even a few more megapixels, 28mp, would have kept people happy.

Canon needs to bring out the 46mp ASAP. Nikon is 'killing' them at the moment. It can't be a 1 D body. If they want lots of sales they need a 5D body, 5D X, or whatever they want to call it. It needs to be reasonably priced, just above the D800, $500 or so above it. This will bring in the crowds.

Or, they could completely stuff it up. Make it a 1 D type body that is super expensive and that 4,000 or 5,000 might buy worldwide. WAKE UP CANON !!! 

Before I am torn to shreds, I'll let the wonderful readers of this forum know that I still have my 5D Mk2 and recently bought a 5D Mk3 which I am very happy with. 

I, however, like all of you, would like Canon to continue doing well into the future, and the reality is that they have dropped the ball in recent years. The 5D Mk2 was a game changer; come on Canon bring out the 46mp out that blows both Nikon and Sony out of the water.

Look this is my two cents worth, my reality check for Canon. Take it as you will.

Signing Out...


----------



## rafaelsynths (Sep 23, 2012)

Can anyone explain to me what 16 bit means? Other than that, the specs look good


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## Musouka (Sep 23, 2012)

I bet this will utilize the CFast 2.0 standard (up to 600MB/s) instead of the XQD 2.0 one (1000MB/s) because it would provide backward compatibility and is fast enough to keep up with the body's needs.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 23, 2012)

drjlo said:


> and it wouldn't surprise me if D800 outshines it in both high iso (likely, esp with lower MP) and DR (as usual).



Aimed at studio work (or macro) with controlled lighting, dr and iso wouldn't matter much, you'd just want high mp for enormous high gloss prints.



well_dunno said:


> 46.1 mp eh? I imagine that would allow Canon show optical superiority of its lenses in comparison to the competition ( and hopefully not vice cersa )...



Most manufacturers can/could produce very sharp lenses for a lot of $$$ - Canon's main advantage is the af system and its integration with the (newest) camera bodies. But if Canon produces all future L lenses for 46mp+ they'll be very expensive, too, even if you use "just" 20mp. The 24-70ii must just have been a taste.



RLPhoto said:


> If its a 5Dx for 4099$. I'm so buying one. ;D



Most people who got a 5d3 for $3500 will happily trade it in for a 5dx for $4500 - At least that's what I hope, because then the rest of us can get the used, cheaper 5d3 bodies :->


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## Martin (Sep 23, 2012)

Let it be around 30-40Mpix with good AF AND greater DR and no visible banding when post processing. So at the end I think I would like to have a Nikon ... maybe with some Canon optics. ISO max Could be 6400 . And we have a perfect camera which could keep Canon customers. Otherwise there no argument for Canon. So far event D600 outshines the canon's flagship camera in all sensor aspects.


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## infared (Sep 23, 2012)

$$$$$8000 in Canon's NEW overpriced world. No thanks.


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## Ewinter (Sep 23, 2012)

I don't want to get everyone's hopes up, but I saw a pro testing a canon ff body for architecture yesterday with all the logos taped out. They were using the tse 17, so I know it was canon and...it was a 5d style body


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## GuyF (Sep 23, 2012)

Some call me visionary...or just a good guesser ;D:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=8347.msg165227#msg165227


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## BXL (Sep 23, 2012)

Jumbuck said:


> Look, let's get down to the nitty gritty. I work for a camera retailer and I can guarantee you that since April the D800 has outsold the 5D Mk3 by a 5 to 1 ratio. This explains recent price drops on the body and the deal struck with the Adorama ebay site.


Could it be different form country to country? In my region I see quite a lot of 5DIII's but hardly any D800.


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## FunPhotons (Sep 23, 2012)

Jumbuck said:


> Look, let's get down to the nitty gritty. I work for a camera retailer and I can guarantee you that since April the D800 has outsold the 5D Mk3 by a 5 to 1 ratio. This explains recent price drops on the body and the deal struck with the Adorama ebay site.



This post says more than most of the opines here (including mine). 

Personally I'd MUCH prefer a 1D body with that 46MP, but regardless I was ready to buy any new body this year to upgrade my 5DMKII. Instead Canon came out with nothing interesting. I love the 1DX overall, but 18MP? Same for the 5DMKIII, that's a lot of money for AF the mmii should have had. 

Bring it on Canon! Let's see some innovation.


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## FunPhotons (Sep 23, 2012)

BXL said:


> Jumbuck said:
> 
> 
> > Look, let's get down to the nitty gritty. I work for a camera retailer and I can guarantee you that since April the D800 has outsold the 5D Mk3 by a 5 to 1 ratio. This explains recent price drops on the body and the deal struck with the Adorama ebay site.
> ...



Ha ha ... because maybe it's sold out?


----------



## FunPhotons (Sep 23, 2012)

Jumbuck said:


> Look, Canon gave us what we asked for and then we snubbed them; decided we wanted everything that we said we didn't need.



Then Canon read the market wrong. If true, then sometimes you have to know what people want, even if they don't know themselves. Apple used to be good at this.


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## mucher (Sep 23, 2012)

46mp with 16bit ADC? I can see that Cannot is working with Malcodesoft to trash all current computers.


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## Albi86 (Sep 23, 2012)

Aglet said:


> Watch out for Nikon crew, they're on a roll and they're not done yet.
> 
> D5100's 16MP * 1.5 * 1.5 = 36MP D800, and they have very similar base ISO performance
> 
> ...



+1, and 



Jumbuck said:


> Look, Canon gave us what we asked for and then we snubbed them; decided we wanted everything that we said we didn't need.



Because they did one thing extremely wrong: price


----------



## Musouka (Sep 23, 2012)

dilbert said:


> Musouka said:
> 
> 
> > I bet this will utilize the CFast 2.0 standard (up to 600MB/s) instead of the XQD 2.0 one (1000MB/s) because it would provide backward compatibility and is fast enough to keep up with the body's needs.
> ...



Huh? What's the use then? Look like it's gonna turn into another format war with Nikon, Sony and Lexar behind XQD versus Canon, Phase One and Sandisk behind CFast:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57516672-1/cfast-2.0-splits-high-end-flash-card-market/

One more thing to worry about when switching systems :-\


----------



## Marsu42 (Sep 23, 2012)

Musouka said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > CFast is not backward compatible with CF.
> ...



It's use is to make you confuse it with vanilla cf, giving the format an advantage over competitors - seems to work


----------



## PerfectSavage (Sep 23, 2012)

Jumbuck said:


> Hi ya people
> 
> Look, let's get down to the nitty gritty. I work for a camera retailer and I can guarantee you that since April the D800 has outsold the 5D Mk3 by a 5 to 1 ratio. This explains recent price drops on the body and the deal struck with the Adorama ebay site.
> 
> ...



Baloney. Nikon isn't selling *anything* at 5:1 globally over Canon, maybe in some small market store that is Nikon focused but go to B&H (world's largest retailer on and offline) any day. and the crowd around the Canon pit is always 2-4x the size of the crowd in the Nikon pit...and that's before, during, and after the 5DIII launched. I'm there at least once or twice per week. How is it you work in a camera store and are still fixated by MP? Nikon killing Canon? Huh, read the Nikon fan boys rants about their own performance issues. All the spec sheet talk about the D600 vs 6D...and then it is confirmed by Nikon at Photokina two days ago (to Philip Bloom ) that the D600 doesn't even allow manual settings in video...I mean, really? Killing Canon? Canon has manual video in the Rebel series. There is a reason some cameras have gone backwards in MP in many cases both pro and consumer, see the recent G series and Powershot series over the past few years and 1Dx.


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## Nishi Drew (Sep 23, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> Jumbuck said:
> 
> 
> > Hi ya people
> ...



Seriously, no manual video controls for the D600? The uncompressed video feed was very tempting, but no control relieves me, now the D600 is just an overpriced D7000 that has an FX sensor thrown in 
Though, the rebels, at least the first few didn't have much video manual control as well anyways, you can adjust the exposure compensation at least... though, Canon has Magic Lantern, and now that the 7D has been hacked~
Although, Canon hasn't evolved with it's DSLR video much past the MKII, they decided to go all out with the C series and now Sony, Nikon (at least not the D600) and M4/3 cams are better equipped and capable.


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## Chosenbydestiny (Sep 23, 2012)

infared said:


> $$$$$8000 in Canon's NEW overpriced world. No thanks.



Did you make that up yourself? Or did you copy it off another moron from another thread? Canon's pricing hasn't changed much. Newbies who came in recently who thought the 24-70 was supposed to be priced just above 1000$ probably didn't experience it's release price of 2100$. And now they cry over the mark II version. So let's talk about cameras. Let's go back a bit to the days where the cost of producing a professional level photograph cost more than your mortgage for a typical 3 bedroom house. Okay, now let's look at more recent models. The 1Ds mark III, and the 5D mark III. Which would you rather shoot now? Would you pay double the price for half the performance? Or are we paying half the price now for (obviously) more than double the performance AND the flexibility? The 7D, and any XXD series camera. At launch pricing. I thought so. The pricing game hasn't changed as much as you think, we just have more players in the mix now.


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## Jumbuck (Sep 23, 2012)

Hey people, back again    

Look, I am not a serial poster, so this will be a kind of last post on this issue.

I stress once more, I am a Canon owner (5Dmk2, 7D, 5Dmk3) and fanboy. What I have posted previously is for the love of Canon. I would neveeeer consider buying a Nikon. Their lenses clip on anti-clockwise, for goodness sake! Plus, I'm too invested in Canon.

Points well taken from other posters (???!). Yes, look this may be occurring in my country, my state, my city only, it may not be a worldwide phenomenon. I won't tell you where I'm from, obviously an 'English speaking' country, for fear of repercussions from Canon.

Let me clarify things. My store sells to consumers primarily, not professionals. This would obviously have to be advanced amateurs, or prosumers as they are sometimes known. I have nothing to gain from quoting the 5:1 ratio statistic. In fact I will add that this ratio would have been 6:1 if Nikon had been able to fulfill D800E orders. However, they have failed miserably in this and orders are getting cancelled left, right and center.

Now, I have good friends at other stores that tend to sell more cameras to professionals. Even there, the D800 is outselling the 5Dmk3, but not at the same ratio as my store. On the other hand, the 1Dx is outselling the D4. So, most professionals are impressed by Canon's new offering. 

Getting back to the prosumers... Canon and Nikon will always sell their wares to their dedicated bands of professionals. This is a limited market, however, and it is not growing exponentially. In the last six months the camera business has shifted. Yes, we have noticed it! Cheap compacts are out (too many good quality smart phone cameras out there), whilst high end compact (ala Sony RX100), Mirrorless Cameras (ala Olympus OM-D) and "really expensive" high end DSLRs are doing a roaring trade. Yes, we are selling more of these than ever. To whom? To average Joe Blows with disposable income. 

Canon and Nikon are not fighting 'the world domination war' to gain more professional users, but to convince average Joe Blows that they are the best. At the moment, Nikon has done this best with the Nikon D800. They have convinced the masses that this is what they must desire, this is what they must have. Remember, the war will be won by recruiting these masses; the pros are, generally, there for the long haul. 

I posted what I posted because 'I' want Canon to win !!!

P.S. To those who wear blinkers and can only retort with nastiness: I discuss my customer's needs with them and explain to them that unless they are printing their photos to A3, A2 size, etc, megapixels are of no consequence. Believe it or not more than 80% of consumers will never print a photo. Viewing them on an smartphone, tablet, computer (flickr, facebook, etc) and TV is what they do; and we all know you don't need tens of megapixels for that.

Selling lots of cameras is about marketing through the creation of desire... and 46mp, whether we like it or not, creates a lot of desire. Those who are purists among us, supporters of less megapixels for less noise, are just going to have to take this on the chin. Canon is a business! They need to find their 'vision' again and move forward to once again dominate the world of DSLRs. 

P.S. At our store we tend to sell more Canons than Nikons. We give equal billing to Canon, Sony, and Nikon. No Pentax, sorry! In fact, Canon, is in the best spot, seen first by customers when they enter. We have never had a D800 'in stock' as such, as months later we are still fulfilling backorders. The 5Dmk3 has always been in stock. In fact, after the initial rush, we still have a good number of bodies just sitting there. They are not selling because customers believe they are too expensive. 

I am not posting to create controversy, as I tried to indicate earlier, but to give Canon a 'kickstarter' up the arse.

Phew...I'm exhausted.

Bye...for good...for now !!!


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## NotABunny (Sep 23, 2012)

16 bit? I'm guessing this is going to be the most expensive EOS body. 1DXs?




Freelancer said:


> well i take pictures with a dslr for 7 years now.
> 95% of my pictures are taken with ISO under 6400.
> 
> i really don´t know what people need ISO 25600 and above.
> ...



Search for Jeff Ascough's website and see yourself if these people have worked in this field. Photography requires light, not light from flashes, you know?


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## contrastny (Sep 23, 2012)

If true, could this 46.1 sensor be a larger sensor size that allows you to switch between a 2x3, 1x1 formats?


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## canon816 (Sep 23, 2012)

PaulTopol said:


> Should I sell my 1dx??
> 
> Very confused: 18mpx for $7000.00
> 46mpx for HOW MUCH?
> ...



I bet that your 1DX will produce superior image quality at ISO 1600 and above. Significantly superior. But a 46mp at 5fps camera is really not geared for the same audience as an 18mp camera with 14fps... 

It sure would be great to have one of each! 8)


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## Marsu42 (Sep 23, 2012)

canon816 said:


> It sure would be great to have one of each! 8)



I'm sure Canon will grant your wish and never produce a "one does it all" camera even if they cold - what's better than a customer buying one camera? Buying two !


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## paulrossjones (Sep 23, 2012)

I hope this rumor is true and canon has a high MP offering very soon. I need more megapixels as my clients crop my shots heavily and I want to retire my slow and painful contax p65+. Im sure a 46mp canon may not quite be as good quality than my phase back- but I'm most situations a camera with these specs will make the phase one redundant.

I think I would like the 46mp camera to be in a 1dx type body, and happy to pay a good price for it. If you use a camera professionally then the gear will be paid off in a matter of months. Camera gear is far cheaper than it ever has been. I paid 15k for my original 1ds, and one job paid the camera off.

paul


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 24, 2012)

Nishi Drew said:


> PerfectSavage said:
> 
> 
> > Jumbuck said:
> ...


Yep, serious. He posted about it after talking with Nikon Friday. ...and there were some other points about the framing in the Nikon LCD view being atrocious and other nuances. You're right with respect to video improvements on DSLRs. There won't be much more groundbreaking stuff in DSLR format, it's going to the C100/300/500 now... which it should... the form factor can only support so much (XLRs, monitors, cage etc), the C100 is a good buy given it has the integrated accessories you'd pay another $2K+ for... no need for audio, monitors, battery pack, matte box, NDs, etc.. Those looking for more from video will be looking more toward something like the C series or competitor...and those prices will come down too, especially on the C300 now that the 500 is official.


----------



## PerfectSavage (Sep 24, 2012)

Jumbuck said:


> Hey people, back again
> 
> Look, I am not a serial poster, so this will be a kind of last post on this issue.
> 
> ...



yeah, we're exhausted too, we stopped at the second paragraph.... [moving on]


----------



## tron (Sep 24, 2012)

pmac said:


> HAHAHAHA This is so funny, only a few months ago most of you were slating the d800 saying that it was over kill in MP,file size and that 22MP was the ideal number.
> Now theres hints of a canon 46MP thats all out the window.
> It will be interesting to see how this pans out, I can't see it having such specs with so hi Mp,fps and iso performance.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if it actual did come out but as more of a MF rival in a larger,extremely expensive body c300 style maybe.


Another funny thing is that a few years ago the 1Ds3 was the best camera for studios. Suddenly it's no good enough and many ask for a "high" megapixel camera! 

P.S 21 or 22 MP is still the ideal number for me...


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## Stuart (Sep 24, 2012)

16 Bit and 46MP


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## M.ST (Sep 24, 2012)

No other camera can reach the image quality of an 1Ds Mark III until today. That´s why I sold my 5D Mark III and that´s why I don´t get a D800.

More megapixels = better image quality is not right.

Canon filled a patent for a foveon type sensor. If there will be a 46.1 megapixel camera I expect the foveon type sensor in it.

But I like to see a new camera between the 1D X and the 5D Mark III with an image quality like the 1Ds III, two CF card slots, the AF from the 1D X and two processors in an 5D Mark ... style body.


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## well_dunno (Sep 24, 2012)

M.ST said:


> Canon filled a patent for a foveon type sensor. If there will be a 46.1 megapixel camera I expect the foveon type sensor in it.



I like the idea behind foveon type sensors - think it is right way to go regarding sensor tech... From Sigma's application of it, high ISO performance seem to suffer though. If Canon can come up with a good high ISO and DR performance on a foveon type sensor, I am getting one... 

Cheers!

Update: This would equal photosites equal to those of app 15.3MP on an FF. Not sure to what extent it helps with high ISO though. If I am not mistaken, issue with the high ISO performance on foveon sensors is the red channel. Being measured last, it is suffering in low light...


----------



## Albi86 (Sep 24, 2012)

M.ST said:


> Canon filled a patent for a foveon type sensor. If there will be a 46.1 megapixel camera I expect the foveon type sensor in it.



The current Foveon also has 46MP, so that would mean a 15.3MP APS-C sensor... for what sort of price? :O


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## wockawocka (Sep 24, 2012)

16 bit - weeeeeee!

Much better gradients and tonality. Lovely stuff.


----------



## wockawocka (Sep 24, 2012)

rafaelsynths said:


> Can anyone explain to me what 16 bit means? Other than that, the specs look good



16 thousand tonal values vs 65 thousand tonal values


----------



## dlleno (Sep 24, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> canon816 said:
> 
> 
> > It sure would be great to have one of each! 8)
> ...



yea on that note... I wonder if Canon is deliberately segmenting the market, or just playing the R&D that they have in hand. For example, The 5D3 appears to optimize high ISO for wedding/event because thats what they thought people wanted. Then D800 came and showed that higher DR can be had at low ISO and folks started complaining that 5D3 couldn't do that too -- I suspect 5D3 is Canon's high-ISO optimization of their current capabillities. 

So the next crop of Canon sensors will reveal their real capabilites, and telegragh the compromizes they must (or choose to) make, i.e the extent to which the 46.1MP beast has to compromize high ISO noise performance in order to produce better DR/shadow detail, or if new technology will make real and significant contributions in both areas.


----------



## brianleighty (Sep 24, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> Let me guess - yet another recycling of the T2i/60D/7D/T3i/T4i/ pixels, just in a larger sensor.
> 
> 18*(1.6*1.6) = 46.1


Either that or it's a new crop sensor that will eventually go in the rebels and 70D but starting with FF version first. An even greater level of the technology dropping from top to bottom.


----------



## dlleno (Sep 24, 2012)

brianleighty said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Let me guess - yet another recycling of the T2i/60D/7D/T3i/T4i/ pixels, just in a larger sensor.
> ...



well it is a CR-1 rumor so the actual pixel count could have been derived using this arithmetic just to start the rumor and just to watch people get their calculators out and entertain themselves


----------



## jrista (Sep 24, 2012)

PaulTopol said:


> Should I sell my 1dx??
> 
> Very confused: 18mpx for $7000.00
> 46mpx for HOW MUCH?
> ...



You aren't paying seven grand for the megapixels, man! Your paying for the tank-like build, the everlasting shutter, the ungodly-fast 12fps shutter rate, the best AF and metering system in the world, beautiful high-ISO performance with low noise, etc. Megapixels are cheap (as evidenced by the 36.3mp D800), and not the primary cost of a high-end camera anymore. Its the other features that really cost you.


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## MARKOE PHOTOE (Sep 24, 2012)

If one of the OP's is correct and this 46MP sensor is a Foveon sensor, this is similar from what I understand is in Sigma DP MERRILL point and shoot that has a few good reviews. However if it was this simple and that great, wouldn't this already be a trend by now?

Last year I met a photographer who actually had done extensive research on this Foveon sensor and his advise to me then was to 'give them some time to perfect it'. He was shooting a Canon 5D2 and had numerous Sigma and Canon lenses but advised me to stay clear of that technology for now.

Your thoughts?


----------



## dlleno (Sep 24, 2012)

caution is good, me thinks. my thought is that one shouldn't pre-order this puppy without seeing some test results. who knows it might be stunning or it might be lackluster


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## Albi86 (Sep 24, 2012)

MARKOE PHOTOE said:


> If one of the OP's is correct and this 46MP sensor is a Foveon sensor, this is similar from what I understand is in Sigma DP MERRILL point and shoot that has a few good reviews. However if it was this simple and that great, wouldn't this already be a trend by now?
> 
> Last year I met a photographer who actually had done extensive research on this Foveon sensor and his advise to me then was to 'give them some time to perfect it'. He was shooting a Canon 5D2 and had numerous Sigma and Canon lenses but advised me to stay clear of that technology for now.
> 
> Your thoughts?



The Foveon produces the most amazing IQ ever, as long as you don't go past ISO 400.


----------



## well_dunno (Sep 24, 2012)

MARKOE PHOTOE said:


> If one of the OP's is correct and this 46MP sensor is a Foveon sensor, this is similar from what I understand is in Sigma DP MERRILL point and shoot that has a few good reviews. However if it was this simple and that great, wouldn't this already be a trend by now?
> 
> Last year I met a photographer who actually had done extensive research on this Foveon sensor and his advise to me then was to 'give them some time to perfect it'. He was shooting a Canon 5D2 and had numerous Sigma and Canon lenses but advised me to stay clear of that technology for now.
> 
> Your thoughts?



Correct! If I m not mistaken, the foveon research at Sigma was quite inflamed and there were many issues and delays. Not sure if Foveon had equal amount of R&D thrown at it as bayer filter sensors. Though I do think foveon is based on a more efficient idea... My hope (or perhaps rather wish) is that Canon has taken the time to, even if not perfect, improve the technology... To be seen though...

Cheers!


----------



## dlleno (Sep 24, 2012)

definately not somethign to pre-order without seeing test results  I'm just wondering how much ISO performance has to give in order to get the DR. its gonna be a good show to watch, but from preliminary indications this won't be seen at very many weddings :. In order to make an industry contribution is appears Canon has to make a fairly sharp distinction between the studio/'scape body and the wedding/event body.


----------



## canon816 (Sep 24, 2012)

dlleno said:


> definately not somethign to pre-order without seeing test results  I'm just wondering how much ISO performance has to give in order to get the DR. its gonna be a good show to watch, but from preliminary indications this won't be seen at very many weddings :. In order to make an industry contribution is appears Canon has to make a fairly sharp distinction between the studio/'scape body and the wedding/event body.



If these specs are correct... this camera will be ideal for landscape and studio photogs.... not weddings or sports/wildlife.


----------



## canon816 (Sep 24, 2012)

dilbert said:


> canon816 said:
> 
> 
> > dlleno said:
> ...



As a wildlife photographer I shoot primarily from ISO 800 through ISO 6400. It would be a great camera if it could hold up with high ISO, but I doubt it will. This camera will likely be a beast at ISO 100-400 and have an expanded DR which is perfect for landscapes and studio.

Until the 1DX came a long the best wildlife camera out there has been the D3S with 10mp. 

While I agree it would be nice to be able to crop and still have a ton of pixels (like a crop sensor 7D), the part that will likely disappoint here is that it will have the same IQ as a 7D... which quite frankly is not that good. 

I doubt it will be a great wedding camera for the same reasons I doubt it would be a good wildlife camera.... High ISO performance, or lack there-of. 

Just my .02


----------



## unfocused (Sep 25, 2012)

dilbert said:


> Oh I think it would be quite excellent for wildlife because when you crop the picture, you'll have the same ability to crop as with the 7D. It would be the full frame version of the 7D, except perhaps in fps. Birders would love it.
> 
> I also see it as being used by quite a number of wedding photographers (that aren't amateurs pretending.)



This sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work in real life. The more you have to crop, the harder it is to nail the focus. So, while it sounds good to say you could simply take a full-frame camera of equal pixel density to a 7D and crop the image after the shoot, the most likely result will be images with missed focus points. If you need a 1.6 magnification, it is best to use a camera that provides a 1.6 magnification.

As for wedding photographers, I can't understand why they would pick this over the 5DIII, which was designed with their needs specifically in mind.


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 25, 2012)

unfocused said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Oh I think it would be quite excellent for wildlife because when you crop the picture, you'll have the same ability to crop as with the 7D. It would be the full frame version of the 7D, except perhaps in fps. Birders would love it.
> ...



A FF body with AF that sloppy would never work well with fast primes. When cropping FF shots if I've encountered a problem it has always been pixel density, not AF.



> As for wedding photographers, I can't understand why they would pick this over the 5DIII, which was designed with their needs specifically in mind.



Because 46 MP will bury 22 MP on large prints of group shots.


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 25, 2012)

canon816 said:


> As a wildlife photographer I shoot primarily from ISO 800 through ISO 6400. It would be a great camera if it could hold up with high ISO, but I doubt it will.



I don't. Noise performance is a function of technology, total sensor surface area, and then, to a much smaller degree than the first two, pixel size. It may be slightly worse than the 5D3 or 1Dx, but will be next to them, not next to the APS-C bodies.



> This camera will likely be a beast at ISO 100-400 and have an expanded DR which is perfect for landscapes and studio.



DR on the other hand is directly related to pixel size, so a 46 MP sensor will do worse all other things being equal. 16-bit is a marketing gimmick if they can't actually get that much data out of each pixel. If they've worked around Sony's patent, then expect great DR despite the pixel density. If not, then expect slightly worse DR then their current FF sensors. 



> While I agree it would be nice to be able to crop and still have a ton of pixels (like a crop sensor 7D), the part that will likely disappoint here is that it will have the same IQ as a 7D... which quite frankly is not that good.



:

The 7D has excellent image quality, pretty much equivalent to the 5D2 through ISO 800. If you've ever stitched 3 frames from a 7D, you want a 46 MP FF sensor even with Canon's current technology (as opposed to Sony's).


----------



## jrista (Sep 25, 2012)

well_dunno said:


> MARKOE PHOTOE said:
> 
> 
> > If one of the OP's is correct and this 46MP sensor is a Foveon sensor, this is similar from what I understand is in Sigma DP MERRILL point and shoot that has a few good reviews. However if it was this simple and that great, wouldn't this already be a trend by now?
> ...



Based on the patents from Canon for their layered design and Sigma for the Foveon, the two designs are quite different. They would really have to be. Canon cannot create a layered sensor design that was the same as but somewhat improved over the Foveon...that would be infringing on Sigma's technology. Canon is less likely to improve Foveon as it is to design an entirely new approach to layered sensors. From what I can tell based on Canon's current patent, they may not actually be producing a "layered" sensor as much as they are taking a new approach towards utilizing the photodiode area in each pixel...some of it is allocated to red, some to green, some to blue, utilizing silicon itself to filter the light (same as Foveon), allowing a "single pixel" to detect all three colors. I am not sure what the real pros/cons of that might be, or if thats actually what they will end up doing in the long run. It seems more like a modified CFA approach than a true layered design like Foveon, and it might resolve one of the key issues with Foveon's design...differentiating how many electrons in a given photodiode are to be allocated to blue, green, and red readouts.


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## stewy (Sep 25, 2012)

My only concerns are:
1. How much ISO at the top end will be sacrificed for this. I'd hope that this can still do 3200-6400 natively.
2. How much will something like this cost? A kidney?
3. I'd have to upgrade my computer. I'm using a 40D right now (10MP RAW) and my computer is managing fine. But post processing times will drop considerably when editing a 46MP file.
4. Storage space. This would require huge CF cards plus great disk space. My workflow usually involves converting to TIFF format then additional editing in Photoshop.

With a 46MP resolution, and if its priced higher than the 1DX, its going to be compared to medium format digital cameras. Unless Canon pulls off a miracle with the sensor, or use a MF sensor, it won't stand a chance when stacked up against the big boys.


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## M.ST (Sep 25, 2012)

Postproduction with files from big megapixel cameras will slow down you workflow dramatically.

I have a very fast computer and graphic card, but if I load the 60 megapixel Raw or Tiff files from the Hasselbald into it, the computer seems to be lame duck.

If you want to store big files you have to invest in additional harddrives or san´s. 

Remember that you can make prints up to DIN A2 with a camera between 20-24 megapixels.

Hint: There are a few different prototypes in the field for testing.


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## well_dunno (Sep 25, 2012)

jrista said:


> From what I can tell based on Canon's current patent, they may not actually be producing a "layered" sensor as much as they are taking a new approach towards utilizing the photodiode area in each pixel...some of it is allocated to red, some to green, some to blue, utilizing silicon itself to filter the light (same as Foveon), allowing a "single pixel" to detect all three colors. I am not sure what the real pros/cons of that might be, or if thats actually what they will end up doing in the long run. It seems more like a modified CFA approach than a true layered design like Foveon, and it might resolve one of the key issues with Foveon's design...differentiating how many electrons in a given photodiode are to be allocated to blue, green, and red readouts.



Thanks! That's useful! Do you have any info on to what extent photosite size would affect the DR and ISO performance? with the gapless microlens tech, and some 15.3 MP on the sensor the photosites would be fairly large, I imagine, but I wonder how that would translate into DR and ISO performance on a layered sensor...

Cheers!


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## jrista (Sep 25, 2012)

well_dunno said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > From what I can tell based on Canon's current patent, they may not actually be producing a "layered" sensor as much as they are taking a new approach towards utilizing the photodiode area in each pixel...some of it is allocated to red, some to green, some to blue, utilizing silicon itself to filter the light (same as Foveon), allowing a "single pixel" to detect all three colors. I am not sure what the real pros/cons of that might be, or if thats actually what they will end up doing in the long run. It seems more like a modified CFA approach than a true layered design like Foveon, and it might resolve one of the key issues with Foveon's design...differentiating how many electrons in a given photodiode are to be allocated to blue, green, and red readouts.
> ...



Well, we are assuming Canon would produce a sensor with that low of a resolution. They might...it might be their favorite size...18mp. It may be more dense. Either way....DR and noise will be key issues for any layered sensor, done Foveon-style or some other way. Foveon sensors don't fare well at high ISO, namely because green (the most prevalent band of light) and red are only registered deeper into the photodiode. Foveon senses blue at the top, green in the middle, and red at the bottom. This generally should balance things out, as silicon is more sensitive to red light than green, and more to green than blue. But there is also a lot more row/column activate and readout wiring (as well as some other control logic) per-pixel in a layered sensor than in a bayer sensor. That means there are more obstructions, so more light gets reflected or absorbed as heat at the green and red levels, reducing light further. Since this is INSIDE the photodiode, there isn't really any way you could use microlenses to mitigate the problem. A really advanced design might actually stack separate photodiodes, sandwiching microlens layers. I imagine that would be FAR more difficult to manufacture and very cost prohibitive.

However Canon does it (assuming they even ever do), you'll have to make some tradeoffs. DR for color fidelity and resolution (on a pixel-normal basis anyway.)


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## well_dunno (Sep 25, 2012)

my hat is off to you sir!


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## MARKOE PHOTOE (Sep 25, 2012)

Looking at the marketing side and possibilities of this new approach by Canon, it obviously is in direct competition to Nikon's D800 and with the masses focused on qty of MP, Canon is making sure they are at least more than 10% larger than Nikon's sensor. 

My guess is the IQ will be much much better than the D800 and 5D3 with some of the trade offs inherited by this newer technology such as FPS and high ISO noise.

Should this new model 'fail' to get the market share, then Canon has dug a big hole for themselves. This HAS to work OR they have to have another trick in the bag.

As far as pricing, my 'guess' is around $4,200.


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## marekjoz (Sep 25, 2012)

MARKOE PHOTOE said:


> (...)
> 
> As far as pricing, my 'guess' is around $4,200.



It's really unpredictable and it can be $4900 or $9900 as well. The price will represent it's uniqueness in a specific area of photography and the better it really will be the higher price we should expect. 
No dinner for free.
Although I like price polls


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## Marsu42 (Sep 26, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> Although I like price polls



Here ye go  ... www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9763


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## nightbreath (Sep 26, 2012)

I think the price could be around $10-12k to compete with medium format. No one knows for sure :-\


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## Ricku (Sep 26, 2012)

nightbreath said:


> I think the price could be around $10-12k to compete with medium format. No one knows for sure :-\


Ehm no, it should be around $4.5K to compete with the D800.

Canon doesn't exist in isolation.


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 26, 2012)

Ricku said:


> Canon doesn't exist in isolation.



yep, but they don´t seem to notice...


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## dadgummit (Sep 26, 2012)

Canon-F1 said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > Canon doesn't exist in isolation.
> ...



^^ It is funny because it is true.


----------



## tron (Sep 26, 2012)

dadgummit said:


> Canon-F1 said:
> 
> 
> > Ricku said:
> ...


 ;D


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## nightbreath (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm glad to see that you figured that out by yourself 

The more you pay the more you believe that you get premium. I saw a post on this forum (don't remember where exactly) about cars in India, when a very cheap car has been developed it didn't become popular, it made popular the car that was next in the price range.


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## ablearcher (Sep 26, 2012)

Pricing will depend on how this cam will be positioned by Canon. If its a more or less mass product and positioned against D800 then too high pricing (say over $4500) becomes unreasonable. $4500 is the price you can pay for D800 plus a decent lens, so a higher price for Canon will be an invitation to add a second system to the setup and not to buy Canon's new cam. If the new high MP cam is positioned as a niche market for high pros and will be able to compete IQ wise with medium format then I expect the price to be sky high. This however will not resolve the current situation for most users who are playing on 5DMKIII & D800 field and i believe this is where Canon could make a lot more $$. Canon's pricing strategy with 5DMKIII proved to be fundametally wrong, so I really hope they learned their lesson...


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## nightbreath (Sep 26, 2012)

ablearcher said:


> Canon's pricing strategy with 5DMKIII proved to be fundametally wrong, so I really hope they learned their lesson...


Just curios, did you see sales numbers?


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## heptagon (Sep 26, 2012)

nightbreath said:


> ablearcher said:
> 
> 
> > Canon's pricing strategy with 5DMKIII proved to be fundametally wrong, so I really hope they learned their lesson...
> ...


Did you see them?


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## marekjoz (Sep 26, 2012)

heptagon said:


> nightbreath said:
> 
> 
> > ablearcher said:
> ...



Did you?


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 26, 2012)

heptagon said:


> nightbreath said:
> 
> 
> > ablearcher said:
> ...



Well, I think he's saying that since someone makes a comment/claim that a sales strategy of a product is, not only wrong, but FUNDAMENTALLY wrong, it would help to see some data that would support that claim. If there is no data to support that claim, then it's just another one of the many rubbish comments in this thread.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Sep 26, 2012)

my take --- what they will unveil in october will probably be a 1d style camera with a 1d style price, and similar to the 1dx this will be announced but not available till summer 2013. In the meantime, they will also unveil the tricle down too. If they are indeed not only bringing in a new sensor, but a new naming scheme, then it would make sense to have a body scaled to each price niche, so the XXDFDDXX will be aimed at high end pros and have a price tag of about 7-8k. Then they will have a lower end pro body in the 2.5-4.5k range, and eventually we'll see rebel style version in the $750-1500 range. 

Think about last year, the 1dx wass announced early, but not seen for a long while. The mk3 was announced and on the market very quickly (which makes sense, most in the market for a 1dx probably needed about a year to allocate enough $$$ to snag one). My guess is we'll see something similar here.


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## dlleno (Sep 26, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> Well, I think he's saying that since someone makes a comment/claim that a sales strategy of a product is, not only wrong, but FUNDAMENTALLY wrong, it would help to see some data that would support that claim. If there is no data to support that claim, then it's just another one of the many rubbish comments in this thread.



true dat! its one thing to give an opinion on a site where one is as good as another (after all, this is a rumors site where the signal to noise ratio is, well, not award-winning), but quite another to assert something as true without supporting data.


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## ablearcher (Sep 26, 2012)

nightbreath said:


> ablearcher said:
> 
> 
> > Canon's pricing strategy with 5DMKIII proved to be fundametally wrong, so I really hope they learned their lesson...
> ...



Sorry - I should've said IMO in my statement. No, I did not look at numbers. I rather look at the level of pricing in terms of competition offerings & their pricing, the fact that the street price of MKIII went down so fast and that much. Also the number of people who were waiting for the upgrade from MKII and who realized that MKIII is out of their financial reach. In Canada the MSRP was announced as $3800 and in just a few months ALL stores priced it down by $300. Is that not an indication of miscalculated pricing? Now as it went all the way down to sub $3K (again, I am aware that this is not MSRP but rather a street price), i see quite a number of early buyers are somewhat angry/frustrated as they paid the full price. I know many of them already paid it off with images taken, but hey if the price was lower initially - that would still be the same cam and extra few hundred $ in their pockets. I wonder if there was another camera model (with a 3-4 year cycle) which pricing was jumping that much in just a few months after the release. Market proved that the real value of the cam is quite below $3K. So yeah, IMO the pricing on MKIII was/is fundamentally wrong.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 26, 2012)

nightbreath said:


> Just curios, did you see sales numbers?



It's the "snob effect": If something is ridiculously expensive it a) has to be stellar (like the 24-70ii as "THE" lens) and b) people with cheap Nikons will admire you, though their tech is better.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Sep 26, 2012)

ablearcher said:


> nightbreath said:
> 
> 
> > ablearcher said:
> ...



Early adopter here, got mine at the beginning of july and so far has shoot 6 weddings, 1 engagement shoot, about 20 events, and one other larger scale project for a website with it. Could I have waited and spent a little bit less? Sure I could have. But, the camera has already paid for itself and then some..

On another note, the d800 vs the mk3 (that's your obvious price reference) - the mk3 is better compared to the d3, d3s, d4 and the d700 - the d800 is really intended for studio use, where the mk3 is designed to be a beast of a wedding camera.


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## DavidRiesenberg (Sep 29, 2012)

ablearcher said:


> Now as it went all the way down to sub $3K (again, I am aware that this is not MSRP but rather a street price), i see quite a number of early buyers are somewhat angry/frustrated as they paid the full price.



Besides that Adorama eBay thing where is it regularly sold below 3K?


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## cpsico (Sep 29, 2012)

Sounds all fine and dandy, but I will never buy one. I just don't have a need for a camera like that.


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## HurtinMinorKey (Sep 29, 2012)

dlleno said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I think he's saying that since someone makes a comment/claim that a sales strategy of a product is, not only wrong, but FUNDAMENTALLY wrong, it would help to see some data that would support that claim. If there is no data to support that claim, then it's just another one of the many rubbish comments in this thread.
> ...



Well, Canon's stock is down 30% this year(the S&P 500 is up 20%) so that's one data point we can use. Also, Nikon's stock is up more that 15%. So while it may not all be the 5D3s fault, something is rotten.


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 29, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



Which could have something to do with the 5D3, or may not anything at all. Or it could be the 1DX, or not at all. Or........See the problem?


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## HurtinMinorKey (Sep 29, 2012)

Just because it's a noisy signal, doesn't mean it's not a signal. It has something to do with Canon, and where there is smoke there is fire. If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.

Either way, a stock price falling is a sign of trouble for a company. If a company is making bad decisions overall, there is a greater probability that any one decision, no matter how small, was bad.


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## jrista (Sep 29, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> Just because it's a noisy signal, doesn't mean it's not a signal. It has something to do with Canon, and where there is smoke there is fire. If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.
> 
> Either way, a stock price falling is a sign of trouble for a company. If a company is making bad decisions overall, there is a greater probability that any one decision, no matter how small, was bad.



Stocks are a really tricky thing though. A lot of industry is cyclical, and ironically the DSLR industry tends to be cyclical in overlapping generations for one brand or another. Canon is currently in a downtrend right now in their cycle, while Nikon is currently starting an uptrend. Such statistics don't always stay the same, and cycle period can change quickly. But things aren't that simple, either. Canon has had a lot of other factors to deal with, from natural disasters to recent closures of plants because of things like riots in China. Canon is very sensitive to their market share, and interruptions to production, even minor ones, can mean a fairly significant hit to their bottom line...and the bottom line is one of the most significant effectors of stock price there is as it affects various other statistics and indicators, like P/E ratio, dividend and yield, etc.

On that note, and to the original comment that started this tangent on stock prices...I don't recall the 5D III having particularly lackluster sales at a $3500 price tag. As far as I saw, it was flying off the shelves as fast as the D800, and more of them sold than the D800. I believe part of that is due to the fact that Canon tends to have a stronger supply chain than Nikon, but the 5D III has been extremely popular among wedding photographers. I wouldn't be inclined to point to the 5D III as the sole cause of Canon's declining stock price. Canon is a huge company, and while they may not be as large as Sony in sheer scale, they have their fingers in a LOT of markets related to imaging, photography, optics, and a variety of related electronics and devices. Any one of the major sectors of their extended empire could be affecting their stock price, or many, or all of them. Here in our little world on CR, we see Canon as lagging behind a bit technologically speaking. I'm not really sure thats how the broader world sees them. 

As someone who lightly trades stocks myself, Canon is one of the stocks I watch. Most of the stock news related to Canon is more broad-market related, japan index related, than specifically related to the performance of the company itself. I believe Canon is a major company in Japan's major indices, so much like similar companies in the US it can ride the index waves up and down. Lot of pressure on Japanese stock indices lately. Most of the news related directly to the performance of the company seems to be generally good, including a variety of M&A news. However mergers and acquisitions can cause odd behavior in a stock, as people trade in or out of their positions in lieu of share swaps or purchases, dilution of stock, etc. (although I'm not sure any of the M&A news for Canon is really serious.) 

Anyway...trying to guage a company like Canon in the context here on CR can be a really tricky thing. Hundreds of factors affect a stock price for a company like Canon. I wouldn't read into a 30% decline in price as solely due to what some may consider a lackluster release year or a presumably high introduction price. Canon still has a LOT going for them, and overall I would call the 5D III and 1D X strengths (yet to see how the 6D fits into things...that one might indeed be a dud! )


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## simonxu11 (Sep 29, 2012)

A new rumor about Canon’s high resolution DSLR (46MP are rumored) showed up at NL.

_ In an update to the high MP info, we’re told [...] that a camera will eventually appear in a 1D X derived body, in the same way as the 1D C. The information said that the actual designation was not known, but it would essentially be a ’1 series’. There was also a warning that there would be a long wait between any ‘preview’ and any cameras [...] being annouced and subsequently shipping.
_

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_1D_Xs.html


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## DavidRiesenberg (Sep 29, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.



Nikon's stock has also fallen 15% since April so what does tell us?

It is impossible to isolate such a marginal product like an expensive pro camera as the culprit. On the other hand, something going wrong with the bread and butter income (entry DSLRs, P&Ss, kit lenses) could potentially be factor. But even then it would have to be something very dramatic and clear cut like a factory blowing up. Lackluster DXO results do not cause panic on the trade floor.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 29, 2012)

simonxu11 said:


> There was also a warning that there would be a long wait between any ‘preview’ and any cameras [...] being annouced and subsequently shipping.



That's interesting because it would prove that Canon sees the high mp d800 as a threat and they don't think that "20mp is enough" for everyone after all. And it shows that Canon is mainly protective and concerned about their pro user base, and doesn't really care about some low- to midrange buyers switching brands.


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## Kernuak (Sep 29, 2012)

Another way to look at it are the price drops from the MSRP, which can be used to indicate relative sales/demand. In the UK, the D800 has dropped from £2599 (although it was originally announced at £2399 before Nikon said there had been a system error in the pricing) to £2073.98, a drop of 20.2%. In comparison, the 5D MkIII has dropped from £3000 to £2658, a drop of 11.1%. To me, that would suggest that sales of the 5D MkIII are holding up better then the D800. Of course, that could be expected due to the shear numbers of 5D MkII owners, a significant proportion of whom would be interested in an upgrade, in addition to any Canon crop sensor camera owners, who may either upgrade or add to existing cameras. I suspect that any hobbyist sports or wildlife photographers would be particularly interested in the improved image quality over a crop camera, now that they have access to a much improved AF system. Chances are, 7D owners in particular have a significant number or EF (if not L) lenses already at the telephoto end.


----------



## canon816 (Sep 29, 2012)

Or that the nikkei is down 15% and there is a broad global economic slowdown and it has nothing to do with canon. You are all speculating way too much...


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## bdunbar79 (Sep 29, 2012)

canon816 said:


> Or that the nikkei is down 15% and there is a broad global economic slowdown and it has nothing to do with canon. You are all speculating way too much...



That was more or less the point I was getting at. Way too much narrow thinking and too many bad economics lessons going on here in this thread.


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## canon816 (Sep 29, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> canon816 said:
> 
> 
> > Or that the nikkei is down 15% and there is a broad global economic slowdown and it has nothing to do with canon. You are all speculating way too much...
> ...



+1... moving along now.... Who out there is interested in this camera? Any excitement? What kind of photography do you do and why would you like one of these in your Kit?


----------



## jrista (Sep 29, 2012)

canon816 said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > canon816 said:
> ...



I'm very interested in it. I'm not really sure I'm excited yet. The rumors coming out are intriguing, and it sounds like Canon is starting to compete again. But, they are still all CR1's. I'll get excited when we start seeing CR2's with the same information, and I'll be particularly excited if the rumors about advanced cooling and low read noise actually reach CR2 phase! 

These days I do almost nothing but bird and wildlife photography, with a little macro thrown in. With a 46.1mp camera, particularly one that has improved DR, I'd definitely get back into landscapes. I was really hoping the 5D III would be another big megapixel camera in the 28-30mp range (which I would have been more than happy with), but 46mp is even better. I'd probably also pick up a TS-E 17mm and TS-E 24mm lens as well (hopefully Canon releases Mark II replacements for the 45mm and 90mm TS-E lenses soon!!)


----------



## HurtinMinorKey (Sep 29, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> canon816 said:
> 
> 
> > Or that the nikkei is down 15% and there is a broad global economic slowdown and it has nothing to do with canon. You are all speculating way too much...
> ...



It's doing worse than it's competitors. It's doing worse than it's own market index(Nikkei). Like i said before, it's not a neutral signal, noisy maybe, but not neutral. You can pretend it is, but them you're just in denial. 

Otherwise, have fun pretending you know something about economics.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Sep 29, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > canon816 said:
> ...



Who cares?


----------



## bdunbar79 (Sep 29, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> Just because it's a noisy signal, doesn't mean it's not a signal. It has something to do with Canon, and where there is smoke there is fire. If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.
> 
> Either way, a stock price falling is a sign of trouble for a company. If a company is making bad decisions overall, there is a greater probability that any one decision, no matter how small, was bad.



This is the horrific ecomonics lesson I was referring to. And yes, it's troublesome. You first relate it to the release of the 5D Mark III (1st paragraph), which makes no sense but let's not go there. THEN, you try to generalize the stock price falling to the overall company performance and not necessarily the 5D3 but a whole slew of other things (2nd paragraph), which, negates your first statement and indicates that it can't possibly be just because of the 5D3. Which it can't be, but that's not what you said, then you sort of said it, and now nobody knows what the heck you're talking about and probably no longer cares.

Once again, can you show us data that directly implicates the 5D Mark III to Canon's stock prices falling? Out of all of the huge line of Canon products, it must be from the 5D Mark III right? If so, show us. Otherwise, this is just a load of garbage like most of this thread has turned in to. 

If you knew all of the different factors that affect a company's stock performance, you wouldn't be making any of these statements. No offense against you, but you went personal in your last statement which also indicates your lack of class.


----------



## canon816 (Sep 29, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> Otherwise, have fun pretending you know something about economics.



Actually... I have a degree hanging on my wall in... you guessed it: "Economics."

But really... who cares...


----------



## Marsu42 (Sep 29, 2012)

canon816 said:


> Actually... I have a degree hanging on my wall in... you guessed it: "Economics."



In this case you are even more at a disadvantage to understand economics :-> ... at least my favorite sitcom "Yes, Minister" says so. I studied economics for some semesters and one of the thing I remember most vividly is that economists hardly can agree on anything, esp. when it comes to predictions or even advice...


----------



## canon816 (Sep 29, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> canon816 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually... I have a degree hanging on my wall in... you guessed it: "Economics."
> ...



;D 

I personally am not super interested in this camera. My big thing is high ISO noise quality. I shoot in low light often and need fast shutter speeds and I worry that this many pixels crammed into a sensor would not allow for clean high iso images. Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large. I do a lot of panormaas and some HDR and files with the 5DIII make my system bog down when I create images that are over a gig each. I'm sure that processing power will catch up over the next couple years however. It will be interesting to see if this camera comes to production as the rumors currently indicate.


----------



## Marsu42 (Sep 29, 2012)

canon816 said:


> Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.



Unlike the d800 the high mp eos is likely to have "s raw" and "m raw" modes that give you raw files like the 5d2/5d3/6d size. And if downscaled 46mp->22mp files have less noise than the native 5d3, there's really no drawback except for the fps - and even here Canon might allow more fps for downscaled raw files. So basically if you have the cash, Canon will try to make you prefer the high mp eos over any 5d.


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## HurtinMinorKey (Sep 29, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> HurtinMinorKey said:
> 
> 
> > Just because it's a noisy signal, doesn't mean it's not a signal. It has something to do with Canon, and where there is smoke there is fire. If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.
> ...



Just because you don't understand the lesson, doesn't make it any less true. You say that the decline in stock value gives us no information about the performance of the 5d3, I say it does. Even if the only thing that it tells us is that the overall company might be doing poorly. 

Do political polls give us facts about general populations? No they give us a signal, within a certain degree of confidence. In this case, the falling stock performance(relative to benchmarks and peers) gives us a signal as to the overall state of affairs at Canon, of which the 5d3's performance constitutes some factor (however small).

Is it possible that the 5d3 is killing it while the rest of Canon is falling apart: YES! But there is nothing to support that.


----------



## dlleno (Sep 29, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> canon816 said:
> 
> 
> > Also, I'm not sure about processing files this large.
> ...



finally, relief from the economic egos. It will be interesting to see the extent to which this is a specialized camera that is disadvantaged when forced out of its comfort zone. For example if the sensor is so optimzed for low ISO DR that it performs poorly at high ISOs, then the downsampled images won't hold a candle to the 5D3 in the areas where the 5D3 excels. On the other hand, if the smaller images are in fact reasonable and convincing compared to the 5D3, then we could have a game changer. Unfortunately I suspect that, given the choice, Canon will want people to buy this AND something else. they most likely won't build a 5D3 killer even if they knew how.


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## zim (Sep 30, 2012)

Maybe it's the 1Dx that's causing Canon all the trouble at mill and the 5D3 is propping the company up........ good grief 

Anyways this thermal cooling thingmibob, does that mean if I put my camera in the fridge to cool it down before taking pictures I'll get less read noise? brilliant! 

........ and there was me thinking read noise was something that happend when your wife is reading 50 Shades of Grey 8)


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## PeterJ (Sep 30, 2012)

zim said:


> Anyways this thermal cooling thingmibob, does that mean if I put my camera in the fridge to cool it down before taking pictures I'll get less read noise? brilliant!


In theory yes that should work, both the sensor and ADC will have less thermal noise. Not sure the humidity will be within spec though . Most Canon user guides actually include a note about temperature, for example from the 5D3 guide:

Shooting in high temperatures may result in images that look grainier.


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## HurtinMinorKey (Sep 30, 2012)

dlleno said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > canon816 said:
> ...



My guess is that this monster will trump the 5d3 in everything other than fps, but will be priced high enough so as to be sufficiently differentiated.


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## jrista (Sep 30, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



Really? I would imagine it will have a different AF system. The 5D III is a prime candidate for a great AF system, but a megapixel monster with a low frame rate? I guess I don't really see it getting the top-end 61/41pt AF system. I certainly hope it gets something better than the 6D's 11pt AF and even the 7D's 19pt AF systems, though.


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## AdamJ (Oct 1, 2012)

Mikael Risedal said:


> HurtinMinorKey said:
> 
> 
> > Just because it's a noisy signal, doesn't mean it's not a signal. It has something to do with Canon, and where there is smoke there is fire. If the 5D3 was killing it, I doubt we'd see Canon's stock fall off so dramatically against the benchmarks. And if you look at the chart, the slide begins right after the release of the 5D3.
> ...



37% ($16.8bn) of total revenues doesn't strike me as a hobby activity.


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## AmbientLight (Oct 1, 2012)

On one hand you are correct that the revenues do not correspond to this being a hobby activity, but once you look at any Canon website, the statement is readily confirmed (although using slightly different terms) as Canon does distinguish between their offerings for companies (multi-functional devices and such) and their offerings for private or home office usage.

Yes there is a niche called professional photography, but this is really just a niche. Most of the photographic equipment revenue appears to come from what they call consumer or home office usage, which may include people getting started in the business.

That is a distinct area from doing business with large corporate customers with hundreds or thousands of employees, so within Canon you will find a multitude of of employees taking care of corporate customers, but only a few will actually have something to do with photography.

You don't see this with Nikon. All their other businesses seem to have eroded over time, so that for them only photography appears to be left.


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## AdamJ (Oct 2, 2012)

AmbientLight said:


> On one hand you are correct that the revenues do not correspond to this being a hobby activity, but once you look at any Canon website, the statement is readily confirmed (although using slightly different terms) as Canon does distinguish between their offerings for companies (multi-functional devices and such) and their offerings for private or home office usage.



Indeed, but still, Canon's Consumer Business Unit (photo / video and home printers - no office equipment) accounted for 37%, or $16.8bn, of Canon's total revenues, and 43% of operating profit, in 2011. This contradicts the previous poster's assertion that the camera division is 'very small' and a 'hobby activity' for Canon. 



AmbientLight said:


> Yes there is a niche called professional photography, but this is really just a niche. Most of the photographic equipment revenue appears to come from what they call consumer or home office usage, which may include people getting started in the business.



Professional photography might indeed be a niche but Canon's commitment to it is evidently no less than Nikon's, which seemed to be the previous poster's implication.



AmbientLight said:


> That is a distinct area from doing business with large corporate customers with hundreds or thousands of employees, so within Canon you will find a multitude of of employees taking care of corporate customers, but only a few will actually have something to do with photography.
> 
> You don't see this with Nikon. All their other businesses seem to have eroded over time, so that for them only photography appears to be left.



In the absence of any employee numbers per business unit from Canon, the fairest assumption is that Canon's photography-related headcount as a ratio to turnover is not wildly different from Nikon's.


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## symmar22 (Oct 2, 2012)

Just to come back to the photographic matter, I would be very interested in such a camera, 5D3 has been for me a disappointment, since I was expecting more from the sensor. I agree the camera is a BIG improvement over the 5D2 about everything else, but it shows that Canon has not done the proper homework concerning sensors. Like it or not, it's always been about pixels, like before we all wanted films with more resolution. IMHO releasing a new prosumer camera with 22MPX priced at 3500$ when Nikon and Sony have 24MPX on consumer DX cameras, looks like it will appear outdated soon. It looks a bit like the D700 that was likely the best camera on the market back then, but every Canon guy was laughing at its 12MPX sensor. Now I agree that something around 20MPX is enough for a lot of tasks.

I understand people want a "do it all" camera, but pro market does not have necessarily the same considerations. IMHO, there is a place for more specialized cameras. The 1DX should fit the task for sport / news people, the 5D3 for event / wedding photographers, but still there is space for a camera dedicated to high quality SLOW picture, like architecture / landscape / industrial / studio photography. 
I see a lot of people complaining about low ISO capability or poor AF such a camera might end with. Is it really of such importance ? Does anybody use a GOOD tripod for this kind of pictures ? Because it is a very valuable accessory I strongly advise to try.... Who gives a client a picture of his building taken with 12800 ISO ?

What I mean here is that a few years ago, architecture / studio / landscape were made with medium format or view cameras, that do not have AF, and the only slide film you would have considered was 100 ISO. Therefore I think a high MP camera is intended at a market who doesn't need such features, people who need high ISO or super AF systems already have these cameras with the 5D3 and 1DX. Personally, this camera would have 1600 ISO max and no AF, I could cope with it as I am sure most serious landscape / architecture / studio photographer could as well...

And NO, I can not afford a 30000$ Hasselblad system, so 5000$ for such a camera would be a blessing. I am mainly using TS-E lenses and Nikon equivalents don't really have the same quality as Canon's (except for the 45 TS).

One word as well about the post processing, I see a lot of people complaining about the size of the files and the time required to process them. I can not understand that people who spend 10,000$ on a camera system cannot not afford a decent computer. You can built a PC with 6 Cores, a fast SSD and 16Gb of memory for around 1000$, that will swallow your pics in a few seconds. Personally I upgrade my PC every year or 2, the motherboard / CPU / RAM update is less than 500-600$. Of course for Apple users things are not quite as simple, but this is another debate. Post processing big files has never been a real issue, assuming of course you have enough RAM (I advise minimum 16GB, that's 80$).

What scares me a bit, is that it seems Canon doesn't really have at this time the ability to release a sensor that could match the DR needed by this type of camera, one must admit Nikon/Sony has a much better sensor with the D800. Hope we get more real infos soon.

Now I am ready to get slaughtered but after all it's all about debating..... 

PS : sorry about my syntax, but I am not a native English speaker


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## Tov (Oct 2, 2012)

I think the Ds series always had sufficient AF and low ISO performance but still came at a prize.
This new 46.1 mp beast isnt going to be any different.
However I doubt that it is going to appear very soon. I think that Canon marketing came up with the idea of spreading a rumour of a very high mp camera so people would think twice before taking the plunge to the D800.

A lesser Af system would mean taking a step back. 
I used to have to focus manually but now with auto-focus life has became peachy.


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## marekjoz (Oct 9, 2012)

I'm just wondering... 

46.1MP is 8316x5544. 14 bits of usual information make 16384 levels of a colour. Is it not so, that increasing the resolution to such a level you should also remember to increase the colour depth to avoid the banding, which may occur at the pixel level? Does Nyquist-Shannon rule has anything to do here or not? If so - is the 46.1MP maximum usable resolution in 14 bits domain?

Guys knowing more than me?


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## jrista (Oct 10, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> I'm just wondering...
> 
> 46.1MP is 8316x5544. 14 bits of usual information make 16384 levels of a colour. Is it not so, that increasing the resolution to such a level you should also remember to increase the colour depth to avoid the banding, which may occur at the pixel level? Does Nyquist-Shannon rule has anything to do here or not? If so - is the 46.1MP maximum usable resolution in 14 bits domain?
> 
> Guys knowing more than me?



You won't experience banding with 14-bit color in most cases, regardless of the image resolution. If you did, it would usually be in large regions of smooth gradient...such as a sky. That already occurs on current and past generation cameras, and is sometimes exacerbated of how your computer screen is calibrated (not caused by, simply made more apparent).

Based on the current rumors, Canon is also boosting the bit depth to a full 16 bits, so this would be a 46.1mp sensor with a 16-bit ADC, which would produce some pretty incredible tonal fidelity, as well as add the potential for a total of four stops or so of improved DR (assuming Canon really does get a handle on their read noise, we might go from an average of 11.something stops to 15.something stops.)


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## tron (Oct 10, 2012)

jrista said:


> Really? I would imagine it will have a different AF system. The 5D III is a prime candidate for a great AF system, but a megapixel monster with a low frame rate? I guess I don't really see it getting the top-end 61/41pt AF system. I certainly hope it gets something better than the 6D's 11pt AF and even the 7D's 19pt AF systems, though.


Why? If it is a 1-series body it will most probably have the top AF system. Wasn't this situation the same with 1DsIII ?


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## tron (Oct 10, 2012)

Mikael Risedal said:


> AF, etc
> first Canon need a sensor to compete with.
> low read out noise
> Large DR
> There are non


That is true I am afraid . However, Canon might have a surprise :


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## jrista (Oct 10, 2012)

tron said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Really? I would imagine it will have a different AF system. The 5D III is a prime candidate for a great AF system, but a megapixel monster with a low frame rate? I guess I don't really see it getting the top-end 61/41pt AF system. I certainly hope it gets something better than the 6D's 11pt AF and even the 7D's 19pt AF systems, though.
> ...



Well, your assuming its a 1-series body. The current rumors either indicate its a 3D, or possibly some new line of cameras with a whole different naming scheme. Either way, if its a studio and landscape camera, I would expect the key selling point to be the sensor, not the AF system, and a complex, advanced AF system in a low-frame rate camera...well, that needlessly increases cost when it's not really needed or beneficial.


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## RGomezPhotos (Nov 1, 2012)

So nothing was announced at Photoplus? ;-)


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## dr croubie (Nov 1, 2012)

RGomezPhotos said:


> So nothing was announced at Photoplus? ;-)


I'd say the Frankenstorm put a bit of a dampener on everything.
But there's nothing at the Photoplus or Javits website to say the whole event was cancelled, so I'm assuming Photolus did actually happen.
But it would be a bit poor form if anyone did announce anything (and it would have just gotten lost in the noise anyway), so nope, nothing fun...


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## wickidwombat (Nov 1, 2012)

nicku said:


> Finally some relative credible rumors and 16 bit. I believe will be in a 5D3 Body (not 1D) aimed directly to studio work. At those specs will be at around $ 5K.
> For what i do... regarding photography... 46 MP is a blessing from haven
> 
> I really, really hope this will be true



if its a 5Dmk3 body and $5000 count me in if its a 1D body i'll pass
I wouldn't mind a high MP body for certain stuff


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## dlleno (Nov 1, 2012)

This might be off the wall for hard core students of Canon history who can predict what Canon will do -- but it will be interesting to see which of two paths Canon will take with this puppy. Assuming this is a 5D style camera:

1. further the specialization (and sale) of different bodies by preserving both a 5D and a high MP camera, optimizing each for their respective niches and preserving the sale of both, i.e. a 5D4 appears in addition to the 46mp body. 

2. compete more directly in the D800 style market, but at a higher price -- , i.e. merge the 5D and high MP lines into one camera that can play well at both 46mp and 21-ish. Use it for studio, landscape, location, wedding, lightweight sports and wildlife. Odds are that the 46mp body won't appear until 5D4 time anyway


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## RGomezPhotos (Nov 1, 2012)

dlleno said:


> This might be off the wall for hard core students of Canon history who can predict what Canon will do -- but it will be interesting to see which of two paths Canon will take with this puppy. Assuming this is a 5D style camera:
> 
> 1. further the specialization (and sale) of different bodies by preserving both a 5D and a high MP camera, optimizing each for their respective niches and preserving the sale of both, i.e. a 5D4 appears in addition to the 46mp body.
> 
> 2. compete more directly in the D800 style market, but at a higher price -- , i.e. merge the 5D and high MP lines into one camera that can play well at both 46mp and 21-ish. Use it for studio, landscape, location, wedding, lightweight sports and wildlife. Odds are that the 46mp body won't appear until 5D4 time anyway



I was thinking along the same lines. If this camera had crop-mode and 6fps - 8fps, it could really be a do-all kinda camera. If the 1DX had 22MP, it would be quite close to perfect. WiFi and it would be. 

If it's light enough, I'd be fine with a 1-series body. I handled my friend's Nikon D4 and was impressed with it's weight. I could totally carry that all day.


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## Bombsight (Nov 2, 2012)

It just kills me when people complain about the weight of todays DSLRs'. :


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## jrista (Nov 2, 2012)

Bombsight said:


> It just kills me when people complain about the weight of todays DSLRs'. :



I'm curious what that comment is based on? As I understand older film SLRs, they did not have nearly the same amount of "stuff" packed into them. They did not need the kind of power modern DSLRs do, so did not need huge battery packs (which is where a lot of weight comes from). Modern electronics are also quite dense, and we pack a LOT of electronics into relatively small packages these days. I've never known film itself to be particularly heavy. 

So, if film SLR bodies were heavier than modern DSLR bodies, what, exactly, made them that much heavier?


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## wickidwombat (Nov 2, 2012)

Bombsight said:


> It just kills me when people complain about the weight of todays DSLRs'. :



remember the canon 1V sans grip

Best... Form factor... EVER!

a 1D like this would be killer


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## dr croubie (Nov 2, 2012)

jrista said:


> Bombsight said:
> 
> 
> > It just kills me when people complain about the weight of todays DSLRs'. :
> ...



In terms of weight, my lightest body is a non-interchangeable-lens Petri Rangefinder, then my mum's Pentax Spotmatic isn't far behind, and they're both nice and made of metal.
My EOS 3 is 780g without battery or lens, not far behind my 7D at 820g with no lens (not sure if with battery), the extra weight in them is going to the weathersealing, tough body, drive motor in 3 and those dual digics in the 7D must weight a bit...
Then the Medium Format big boys are Mamiya 645AF and Pentacon 6 at 1.7kg, and the big Soviet Tank Kiev 60 at just over 2kg (P6 and K60 weighed here with standard lenses).

The pentaprisms are the biggest killer behind metal weathersealed-bodies, Li-batteries and motor drives, the difference in weight between a sensor and a film cartridge is negligible.

Still, none of those are "too heavy" for me. There's definitely times I'd like an M9 (and not just for the IQ and prestige), but I'm generally happy carrying any body around.
Lenses, on the other hand, weigh a lot more (like 2kg for a Zeiss 300mm/4 and 1.1kg for the 180/2.8, with both of them in my bag i'm struggling not matter what body/ies i'm also carrying).


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## RuneL (Nov 2, 2012)

nicku said:


> Finally some relative credible rumors and 16 bit. I believe will be in a 5D3 Body (not 1D) aimed directly to studio work. At those specs will be at around $ 5K.
> For what i do... regarding photography... 46 MP is a blessing from haven
> 
> I really, really hope this will be true



Can I ask you why you believe that?


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## jukka (Nov 3, 2012)

RuneL said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > Finally some relative credible rumors and 16 bit. I believe will be in a 5D3 Body (not 1D) aimed directly to studio work. At those specs will be at around $ 5K.
> ...


﻿﻿﻿Hei siellä
Rune L, is it you how know Marcus L?


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## tron (Nov 4, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> Bombsight said:
> 
> 
> > It just kills me when people complain about the weight of todays DSLRs'. :
> ...


+1 You reminded me of my used EOS1n cameras I miss this kind of design...


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## PVS (Nov 4, 2012)

5:4 Crop mode with VF support would be one nice addition.


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## rpt (Nov 7, 2012)

dreidesq said:


> As this is a rumour site. I've just heard that the rumoured Canon 3DX is actually going to be called a 0DX which tops the 1DX.
> 
> It's going to be a 100mp "ultra" medium format camera, it's going to have 32 bits of colour rendition and a full 24 steps of dynamic range. It will fit FD, EF and EFs, Nikon, Sony, Leica and Hasselblad lenses and will have 292 areas of AF focus points.
> 
> ...


Only if it comes with a mouse for a squeaky clean sensor


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## AmbientLight (Nov 7, 2012)

Now here is a good product idea: Clean your sensor squeaky clean with the sensor-cleaning mouse.

Sounds good to me. ;D


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## rpt (Nov 7, 2012)

AmbientLight said:


> Now here is a good product idea: Clean your sensor squeaky clean with the sensor-cleaning mouse.
> 
> Sounds good to me. ;D


Actually it is *PeterJ*'s idea. Look up http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=10488.msg188089#msg188089


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## iaind (Nov 7, 2012)

dreidesq said:


> As this is a rumour site. I've just heard that the rumoured Canon 3DX is actually going to be called a 0DX which tops the 1DX.
> 
> It's going to be a 100mp "ultra" medium format camera, it's going to have 32 bits of colour rendition and a full 24 steps of dynamic range. It will fit FD, EF and EFs, Nikon, Sony, Leica and Hasselblad lenses and will have 292 areas of AF focus points.
> 
> ...




Considering that Comet are due to go into Administration, take this rumour with a Pillar of Salt


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## jukka (Nov 9, 2012)

It is quiet about more rumors, any one heard anything about a high resolution Canon camera?


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## JR (Nov 9, 2012)

jukka said:


> It is quiet about more rumors, any one heard anything about a high resolution Canon camera?



Alas it would seem our hope to have something announced this year are gone :-[

Looks like we will have to be patient...


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## crasher8 (Nov 10, 2012)

What? Not satisfied with lens caps?


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## rpt (Nov 10, 2012)

crasher8 said:


> What? Not satisfied with lens caps?


No, I think he felt cheated that there were no rumors about them


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## Kahuna (Nov 10, 2012)

rpt said:


> crasher8 said:
> 
> 
> > What? Not satisfied with lens caps?
> ...



Should give us hope. Got the lens cap to market without a single peep on Canon Rumors.... Must mean the megapixel beast is coming soon


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## thexfile (Nov 10, 2012)

dreidesq said:


> Yep the mega pixel camera is just around the corner. Tomorrow in fact!
> 
> They built it specifically for the new lens cap. LOL.
> 
> ...


Just like Paul Revere..."The Megapixels are coming!" ;D


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## rpt (Nov 10, 2012)

thexfile said:


> dreidesq said:
> 
> 
> > Yep the mega pixel camera is just around the corner. Tomorrow in fact!
> ...


But when? You should be posting this message just as the shipments are nearing the port...


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## cpsico (Nov 10, 2012)

When Nikon had a 12 megapixel flagship they tried to convince us that is all low light shooters should need, now we have a d800 which is a very very specific camera and the world is convinced we need megapixels on a level that would require special lenses perfect technique, tripods and a computer more expensive than our gear to process and store all those insanly huge images. In my humble opinion 21 megapixels is a pretty sweet spot for dslr.


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## jukka (Nov 10, 2012)

I love to have 225Mp , no AA-filter and chose the files size out via pixel binning down to 14Mp


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## tron (Nov 11, 2012)

jukka said:


> I love to have 225Mp , no AA-filter and chose the files size out via pixel binning down to 14Mp


I hope you are young so as to live to see and enjoy that 

It is not as if they can't because I believe that if they wanted to they could achieve that in reasonable time.

I believe they postpone progress as much as they can to milk as much money as possible (Just my opinion, I cannot have proof of course).


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## AmbientLight (Nov 12, 2012)

tron said:


> I believe they postpone progress as much as they can to milk as much money as possible (Just my opinion, I cannot have proof of course).



Mmmh, I don't think milking customers to hold back on technology is such a big issue here. In other industries I see this as a valid strategy, but not in our current camera market. There is just not enough pressure on R&D to make bigger leaps. That's all.

We can thank Canon, Sony and Nikon for their competition, because this is what primarily drives this market forward. It would actually be dreadful for Canon or one of the others to provide a camera, which is so good, that nobody would want to upgrade in the next decades. Just look at Leica as an example on how to do things wrong.


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## tron (Nov 12, 2012)

AmbientLight said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > I believe they postpone progress as much as they can to milk as much money as possible (Just my opinion, I cannot have proof of course).
> ...


I am not sure. Leica needs better sensor too...


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## AmbientLight (Nov 13, 2012)

tron said:


> I am not sure. Leica needs better sensor too...



Actually my point with Leica was not the sensor, but falling behind in camera sales due to ignoring the competition at a time, when the company felt technologically superior. This happened at the time of the Leica M3, when Nikon came out with the Nikon F and Canon also began producing SLR cameras. Leica was so late to the SLR market that they never gained significant market share.

My point is that if a company has little or only partial market share, then it will thrive to gain market share, no matter how. This will likely bring out the best, but this won't happen in case a company is too self-satisfied.


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## jukka (Nov 16, 2012)

Leica has a new CMOS sensor developed in Europe by CMOSIS.

Leica's profitability is good (what I understand) , they sell everything they produce in terms of cameras, lenses and medical equipment


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 16, 2012)

jukka said:


> Leica's profitability is good (what I understand)



Yes, it is, AFAIK. They are actually owned by Danaher, a conglomerate that is in the business of buying other companies, and divesting them if they become unprofitable.


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## AdamJ (Nov 16, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> jukka said:
> 
> 
> > Leica's profitability is good (what I understand)
> ...



Leica Microsystems is a sub of Danaher and the Leica brand owner, but Leica Camera is a separate company. I thought I'd clarify this before Mikael picks up on it.

Edit: Did I say Mikael? I keep doing that! Sorry, I meant jukka.


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## K-amps (Nov 16, 2012)

AmbientLight said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure. Leica needs better sensor too...
> ...



Ah, Leica.... The Nakamichi of the Camera World.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 16, 2012)

AdamJ said:


> Leica Microsystems is a sub of Danaher and the Leica brand owner, but Leica Camera is a separate company.



Interesting, and thanks. Looks like Leica Camera split off from the Leica Group before Danaher entered the picture. I remember using Leitz microscopes many years ago, before they became Leica (= Leitz Camera).


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## GuyF (Nov 16, 2012)

K-amps:

Ah, Leica.... The Nakamichi of the Camera World. 
[/quote]

Jeez dude, this is a _camera_ forum!  How many of the folks here would know a Dragon if it bit them on the ass? Hey, now there's a competition! Does any contributor own a 1DX, a Leica, a Nakamichi Dragon and, say, drive an original Merc gullwing? If they do, the prize is to buy everyone else a new lens ;D.


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## K-amps (Nov 16, 2012)

GuyF said:


> Jeez dude, this is a _camera_ forum!  How many of the folks here would know a Dragon if it bit them on the ass? Hey, now there's a competition! Does any contributor own a 1DX, a Leica, a Nakamichi Dragon and, say, drive an original Merc gullwing? If they do, the prize is to buy everyone else a new lens ;D.



Haha... you know what.... I started looking up Nak's on Feebay right after I made that post... some nice juicy PA-7's were just sold..... needed a fix.


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