# Let’s talk about the Canon EOS R3 [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 21, 2021)

> The surprise development announcement of the Canon EOS R3 has been quite exciting, but as planned by the marketing folks at Canon, we’ve all been speculating what Canon has in store for the EOS R3.
> I have received a bit of vague information about what Canon has planned for the Canon EOS R3.
> One of the first questions is whether or not there will be an EOS R1. The answer to that is yes, but don’t be putting money away waiting for it right now. It’s not coming soon. I speculated that we’d get an R1 development announcement ahead of the Tokyo games, but that is the hole that the EOS R3 fits into.
> A good source has also told me in very vague terms a couple of things.
> The image sensor is all-new from Canon, as we know it’s a stacked backside-illuminated image sensor. Beyond what Canon has told us, I have been told that this camera will have a “resolution trick”. Does that mean it will have pixel-shift or something else? This will not be a 20mp camera like the EOS-1D X Mark III, so...



Continue reading...


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## Chaitanya (Apr 21, 2021)

I am expecting similar Pixel count to Sony A1 with similar video features to R5 and longer record times thanks to larger body. If there is a new battery type, battery life still wont be as good as A1 but massive improvement over R5.


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## Berowne (Apr 21, 2021)

Quad-Pixel is what I would believe, high Megapixel not. The R3 looks more like a Sport-Camera.


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## David Hull (Apr 21, 2021)

Probably is a "Sport-Camera" since the Olympics is comming up and Canon usually has something for that.


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## Joules (Apr 21, 2021)

The next evolution of DPAF, that would not contradict Canon's statement that it will have DPAF, is DPAF but with alternating orientations.


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## DBounce (Apr 21, 2021)

Chaitanya said:


> I am expecting similar Pixel count to Sony A1 with similar video features to R5 and longer record times thanks to larger body. If there is a new battery type, battery life still wont be as good as A1 but massive improvement over R5.


So You are thinking this camera will get under 80 minutes of recording time? I somehow doubt that.


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## DBounce (Apr 21, 2021)

Given I shoot a lot of video, I’m not sure what to think of this offering. Canon didn’t go into the video specs at all. And there does not appear to be any microphone holes on the front of the body. All other Canon cameras have these holes. And since we know that iPhones are water resistant to 30’ we can safely assume this has nothing to do with weather sealing.
I’m disappointed this camera will not offer global shutter. That would have been awesome. Granted, it will have a stacked sensor, so readout speed should be acceptable. It’s just something I would have liked to see. I have a Red Komodo arriving on Friday and at this point I’m still struggling with weather I should keep it or sell it. While I like the image, it’s all so close anymore that things like AF, low light... become more relevant.


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## neurorx (Apr 21, 2021)

Hoping for a low light capable camera with at least 30 mp....I like my R5 but really want some more low light flexibility with some ability to crop! This camera sounds very interesting. With my R5 I tend to go through 3 batteries an event. The battery grip would make a great addition.


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## skp (Apr 21, 2021)

I'd love to see something absolutely bananas, but theoretically possible: a full-frame 3-chip stills camera using a prism like almost all video cameras used to do a decade ago


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## Stig Nygaard (Apr 21, 2021)

David Hull said:


> Probably is a "Sport-Camera" since the Olympics is comming up and Canon usually has something for that.



"Official" Olympic camera is the 1DXIII. Canon cannot rush an extra camera out fast enough because of one year rescheduling of OL.



Joules said:


> The next evolution of DPAF, that would not contradict Canon's statement that it will have DPAF, is DPAF but with alternating orientations.



Agree. High megapixel I believe/expect (around 45mp like R5 is my guess). Doesn't sound like we get QuadPixel AF yet (though maybe a DualPixel AF v3).

My guess for announcements/releases still is either

1DxIII: 2020 (Originally scheduled Summer OL year)
R3: 2021-2022 (FIFA WC year)
R1: 2023-2024 (OL year)
R3 II: 2025-2026 (FIFA WC year)

or maybe Canon take the chaotic times (including high level/speed of technology changes and progress) as a opportunity to swap, so R3 are will be the future "olympic" body and R1 bodies aligned with FIFA WC:

R3: 2021 (rescheduled OL - by coincidence  )
R1: 2022 (WC)
R3 II: 2023-2024 (OL)
R1 II: 2025-2026 (WC)

If it is a 45mp sensor in the R3, it might share sensor with rumored "R5 Cinema"?

And (21mp?) global shutter in R1 sounds like a good guess to me


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## H. Jones (Apr 21, 2021)

The R3 is starting to sound like a truly legendary camera. I'm convinced this is a minimum of 50 megapixel camera. That suddenly makes more sense for Canon to release a new camera line, one that has more consumer technology and takes more risks before it can go up to the 1D series. I'm very interested to know what kind of marketing data Canon has about what people want and need, but I wouldn't be surprised if the R3 remains higher resolution than the R1 series going forward. The 1-series fits a very specific need, and I'm guessing will go even higher up-market and be more like the $8000 the 1-series used to be.

I would be very excited if the "pixel trick" is the camera able to shoot both high-resolution 50mp 30fps, or do a high-quality 20-ish mp 30 fps raw mode. I have no doubt they will also do pixel-shift, but it would be sweet if the camera could also still function as both a high-res and low-res camera depending on your needs on a shoot.


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## 01Spino94 (Apr 21, 2021)

This is looking more and more like the R system’s equivalent of the original EOS-3. A just short of flagship technology testbed that brings new capabilities into the fold and allows for hard usage before they are folded into the flagship. If you remember the EOS-3 (great camera, I still have mine), while all the attention was paid to the eye-control autofocus the biggest innovation was the first use of the 45 point AF sensor which found its way into the EOS-1V (last pro film camera) and the first rounds of the EOS-1D and 1Ds. If I remember right it was also the first implementation of a CMOS sensor for the AF module as opposed to a CCD.

I’m really looking forward to the R3, and hope it is not a one-off like the EOS-3 was.


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## Maximilian (Apr 21, 2021)

IMO too much smoke from too small fire. 
Okay, rumors are for the rumors sake, but for me there are too few infos for any guess.


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## dolina (Apr 21, 2021)

The R3 allows Canon to side step the issue of cannibalizing 1-Series SLR body sales.


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## domo_p1000 (Apr 21, 2021)

Berowne said:


> Quad-Pixel is what I would believe, high Megapixel not. The R3 looks more like a Sport-Camera.


There is precedent for this to be high Megapixel: the 1DS range were visually identical to the 1D line, but with increased resolution, geared up more for studio work.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 21, 2021)

domo_p1000 said:


> There is precedent for this to be high Megapixel: the 1DS range were visually identical to the 1D line, but with increased resolution, geared up more for studio work.


The 1D and 1DS were not just visually identical but physically identical too, the only differences were internal, same card slots, buttons, menus everything. The EOS 3 and EOS 1V were very different physically internally and externally.

As for differences between the R3 and R1, I think there are some pretty obvious thoughts given precedent.

I’d think one of the differentiating factors would be card slots, I’d think both will have two card slots but the R3 will have two different card types, the R1 a single card type. The R3 will have higher resolution. The R1 will have quad pixel and global shutter. The R1 will have some mysterious but ‘higher’ weather sealing nomenclature. The R1 will have faster fps. The R1 will cost a lot more than the R3. The R1 will have built in GPS. The R3 with have a tilt/swivel screen, I'd expect the R1 to have a fixed screen.


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## pape2 (Apr 21, 2021)

I think global shutter is fantasy. Half more readout speed than A1 and nobody can see artifacts on practical sport photographing.
Call it what ever . Call it global shutter and nobody would never know


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## H. Jones (Apr 21, 2021)

pape2 said:


> I think global shutter is fantasy. Half more readout speed than A1 and nobody can see artifacts on practical sport photographing.



Global shutter is about more than that though, you can't just fake it. For example, global shutter allows flash sync at any shutter speed, and could even have far shorter exposures than a mechanical shutter, all the while still with full flash sync. 1/32,000 second exposures with full flash sync could be *wild.*

Global shutter tech also blows away insane output speeds and frame rates, if I remember correctly their last global shutter we know they developed hit 120 FPS raw output.


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## juststeve (Apr 21, 2021)

Might it be the R3 will be 80-100 MP, with perhaps quad pixel or alternating vertical-horizontal dual pixels.

To get extremely high readouts and frames rates, four pixel squares could be binned for a 20-25 MP file. This might be practical with little performance hit with the stacked sensor.


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## Diltiazem (Apr 21, 2021)

If it is next generation DPAF then it would be DPAF, not quad-pixel AF. The 'resolution trick' could be a lower resolution mode for 30 FPS (a lower FPS for full resolution mode).


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## privatebydesign (Apr 21, 2021)

pape2 said:


> I think global shutter is fantasy. Half more readout speed than A1 and nobody can see artifacts on practical sport photographing.
> Call it what ever . Call it global shutter and nobody would never know


Why, the global shutter on the C700 is a $2,000 option. Put a $2,000 premium on the R1 over the R3 and you are done. Though I'd expect a lot of smaller refinements to differentiate the two as well.


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## pape2 (Apr 21, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Global shutter tech also blows away insane output speeds and frame rates, if I remember correctly their last global shutter we know they developed hit 120 FPS raw output.


120fps isnt much for 10mpixel sensor. A1 can do same if scaled to 10mp


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## H. Jones (Apr 21, 2021)

pape2 said:


> 120fps isnt much for 10mpixel sensor. A1 can do same if scaled to 10mp



The last design they had was for a full-frame 21 megapixel global shutter with 120 fps raw output and 20-stops of dynamic range.


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## pape2 (Apr 21, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> The last design they had was for a full-frame 21 megapixel global shutter with 120 fps raw output and 20-stops of dynamic range.


Still not impressive ,could be next generation stacked rolling shutter sensor prototype.


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## H. Jones (Apr 21, 2021)

pape2 said:


> Still not impressive ,could be next generation stacked rolling shutter sensor prototype.



As a correction: Canon already has existing 120FPS raw output global shutter tech down to a 3.4um sensor pixel pitch for a smaller industrial sensor, which actually translates to a 84mp full-frame global shutter sensor when scaled up at 3.2um. It also has built-in HDR dual-memory, which allows it to reach 20 stops of dynamic range in a global-shutter design as it images the scene simultaneously in every image and combines both a shadow exposure and a highlight exposure of the frame.









Canon Paper on Global Shutter Sensor


Canon researchers have written a paper on a 3.4 μm pixel pitch global shutter CMOS image sensor with dual in-pixel charge domain memory. While this technology is most suited for industrial, video camera, or automotive purposes; there are still real-world impacts upon the camera side of the...



www.canonnews.com


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## pape2 (Apr 21, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> As a correction: Canon already has existing 120FPS raw output global shutter tech down to a 3.4um sensor pixel pitch for a smaller industrial sensor, which actually translates to a 84mp full-frame global shutter sensor when scaled up at 3.2um. It also has built-in HDR dual-memory, which allows it to reach 20 stops of dynamic range in a global-shutter design as it images the scene simultaneously in every image and combines both a shadow exposure and a highlight exposure of the frame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok maybe there is then global shutter coming ,i dont understand how they can make it but i guess i dont need


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## CanonGrunt (Apr 21, 2021)

I have a feeling this camera is not focused on video at all. It’ll have some sort of decent video, something standard, but that won’t be its focus. I feel like it’s the stills side of a 1Dx MK III crossed with what we had with the 5DsR. 

A lower megapixel sports mode. So like 20mp fast frame rate. And a studio high megapixel mode taking advantage of the full sensor power with two processors. 

I feel like. The R1 will be the “do it all” workhorse for stills and video and will come along way later. 

My prediction anyway. 


The Komodos are nice. I went with a c70 though. Very adaptable for vintage glass. 



DBounce said:


> Given I shoot a lot of video, I’m not sure what to think of this offering. Canon didn’t go into the video specs at all. And there does not appear to be any microphone holes on the front of the body. All other Canon cameras have these holes. And since we know that iPhones are water resistant to 30’ we can safely assume this has nothing to do with weather sealing.
> I’m disappointed this camera will not offer global shutter. That would have been awesome. Granted, it will have a stacked sensor, so readout speed should be acceptable. It’s just something I would have liked to see. I have a Red Komodo arriving on Friday and at this point I’m still struggling with weather I should keep it or sell it. While I like the image, it’s all so close anymore that things like AF, low light... become more relevant.


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## highdesertmesa (Apr 21, 2021)

The R3 would make for a strange high-res camera since landscape shooters typically want the smallest/lightest setup – especially in light of the small form factor for the GFX 100S. Wonder if the R5s will still be a separate camera or if it's dead for now.


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## amorse (Apr 21, 2021)

This all kind of sounds like this kooky rumour about the R1 posted back in March - quad pixel/quad bayer to go from 21 to 85MP with higher burst rate at lower resolution could be that resolution trick? Maybe this was supposed to be an R1 but got transitioned to an R3 to preserve the position of the 1DXIII for a while yet, or to provide more time to adapt the technology to where Canon can confidently call it a flagship camera system.


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## Fletchahh (Apr 21, 2021)

amorse said:


> This all kind of sounds like this kooky rumour about the R1 posted back in March - quad pixel/quad bayer to go from 21 to 85MP with higher burst rate at lower resolution could be that resolution trick? Maybe this was supposed to be an R1 but got transitioned to an R3 to preserve the position of the 1DXIII for a while yet, or to provide more time to adapt the technology to where Canon can confidently call it a flagship camera system.


Another option is that that will be the R1 when it comes out but Canon still needs some time to finish developing it.


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## BakaBokeh (Apr 21, 2021)

The high resolution stuff is new and interesting info. Since it looks and feels like a mirrorless 1DX, it made me wonder if it was going to have a lower resolution sensor. I'm in the camp with some of you who have suggested that the pixel trick is to allow for either high or low resolution. Like grouping 4 pixels together to make a big low light sensitive pixel at a lower resolution. I don't think this particular camera is in my future, but I love the idea of advancing technology and giving users more options... which will make their way into other cameras.


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## DBounce (Apr 21, 2021)

CanonGrunt said:


> I have a feeling this camera is not focused on video at all. It’ll have some sort of decent video, something standard, but that won’t be its focus. I feel like it’s the stills side of a 1Dx MK III crossed with what we had with the 5DsR.
> 
> A lower megapixel sports mode. So like 20mp fast frame rate. And a studio high megapixel mode taking advantage of the full sensor power with two processors.
> 
> ...


You maybe correct, but I selfishly hope you are not.
FYI: while waiting for the Red I purchased both the C70 and Sony FX6. I ended up returning the Canon, as the Sony checked more boxes for my use. Both are honestly outstanding... especially if time is a constraint. The Red will allow me to utilize the excellent RF glass... which currently is just collecting dust on my selves.
If the R3 turns out to be a video beast, with raw light and 8K, with a tilt/flip 16:9 lcd, and other goodies... it might be time to ditch the Red. Because in all honesty, I would love a weather sealed tank with world class AF... with long battery life... and no overheating. Canon... are you listening?


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## TAF (Apr 21, 2021)

01Spino94 said:


> This is looking more and more like the R system’s equivalent of the original EOS-3. A just short of flagship technology testbed that brings new capabilities into the fold and allows for hard usage before they are folded into the flagship. If you remember the EOS-3 (great camera, I still have mine), while all the attention was paid to the eye-control autofocus the biggest innovation was the first use of the 45 point AF sensor which found its way into the EOS-1V (last pro film camera) and the first rounds of the EOS-1D and 1Ds. If I remember right it was also the first implementation of a CMOS sensor for the AF module as opposed to a CCD.
> 
> I’m really looking forward to the R3, and hope it is not a one-off like the EOS-3 was.



New capabilities - the dual digital/film body.

A nice pellicle mirror to direct part of the light to the image sensor, and the rest passes through to the film.

Best of both worlds. No need for dual card slots when you have analog backup.


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## CanonGrunt (Apr 21, 2021)

DBounce said:


> You maybe correct, but I selfishly hope you are not.
> FYI: while waiting for the Red I purchased both the C70 and Sony FX6. I ended up returning the Canon, as the Sony checked more boxes for my use. Both are honestly outstanding... especially if time is a constraint. The Red will allow me to utilize the excellent RF glass... which currently is just collecting dust on my selves.
> If the R3 turns out to be a video beast, with raw light and 8K, with a tilt/flip 16:9 lcd, and other goodies... it might be time to ditch the Red. Because in all honesty, I would love a weather sealed tank with world class AF... with long battery life... and no overheating. Canon... are you listening?


I’m using FD lenses adapted to RF on the c70 and an R6, and they are a ton of fun. I also have a full EF prime set of L lenses and the speed booster thingy for the c70, and a ND filter EF to RF adaptor for the R6. Makes a versatile little combo. I wish the R6 was DCI though, and not just UHD, but if the video specs on the R3 are better I won’t need to keep the R6 at all. So here’s to hoping I’m wrong!!!


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## swkitt (Apr 21, 2021)

I think all pixels will be split in 2 or 4 and this can be used either to improve AF, either to multiply the resolution. It could have 25MP with a terrific AF and 30fps, or 50MP with a slower AF and 12-20 FPS.
And it's obviously a sport camera, that's why they didn't announce anything for video, it will have a normal 4K option but will not compete with R5 on this point. People always want the newest camera to have all the features they wish, but Canon don't care about this. Videographers can buy the R5 or wait for the R5II if it's not enough. Canon has no interest in cannibalizing its own models every time they make a new one !


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## unfocused (Apr 21, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> ...As for differences between the R3 and R1, I think there are some pretty obvious thoughts given precedent.
> 
> I’d think one of the differentiating factors would be card slots, I’d think both will have two card slots but the R3 will have two different card types, the R1 a single card type. The R3 will have higher resolution. The R1 will have quad pixel and global shutter. The R1 will have some mysterious but ‘higher’ weather sealing nomenclature. The R1 will have faster fps. The R1 will cost a lot more than the R3. The R1 will have built in GPS. The R3 with have a tilt/swivel screen, I'd expect the R1 to have a fixed screen.


It sounds like you are describing an R5 with an integrated grip.


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## unfocused (Apr 21, 2021)

Maximilian said:


> IMO too much smoke from too small fire.
> Okay, rumors are for the rumors sake, but for me there are too few infos for any guess.


Basically, this is just a thread with no information but an opportunity for people to describe the unicorn they are dreaming of. Wake me up when some actual information becomes available.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 21, 2021)

unfocused said:


> Basically, this is just a thread with no information but an opportunity for people to describe the unicorn they are dreaming of. Wake me up when some actual information becomes available.


The two pieces of information I want are sensor resolution and availability date.


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## john1970 (Apr 21, 2021)

A couple of points to make:

1) I am thinking that this could be a quad-bayer design with 84 or 21 MP depending on your needs as a photographer. 

2) Quad-pixel AF would be the icing on the cake. 

Cannot wait for Canon to announce the official specifications in all their detail....


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## gavinz (Apr 21, 2021)

Interesting to see the R3. I was going to go to the R5 but now I will wait and see especially since we are all not going anywhere with the Covid situation.


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## st jack photography (Apr 21, 2021)

I am excited about this R3. I like it when camera companies innovate. I look back on past cameras, like the waist-level cameras and cameras that shot square frames and I dream big. I want a camera that shoots native squares, using the absolute best part of the lenses.


I know that mirrorless cameras shoot a 1:1 square image when shot through a digital viewfinder, but does anyone else besides me have an interest in a BSI sensor that is for RF lenses but measures square, like a 30mm x 30mm sensor, something also high megapixel (60+) for cropping? With the RF mount, larger than 30mm x 30mm may be possible. I know I will never likely see this, but when I see innovation like the r3, I get inspired.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 21, 2021)

unfocused said:


> It sounds like you are describing an R5 with an integrated grip.


30 fps is a big step up from 20, the big 1 series battery is a major plus in itself for me too if it is backwards compatible. Better weather sealing, the 1DX III mouse style AF buttons, the eye controlled AF, etc, there are a lot of things Canon can put in an R3 to make it ‘above’ an R5 yet still have some key features left for the R1.


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## canonmike (Apr 21, 2021)

The more I listen, I'm leaning for a late summer or perhaps, early fall public release. In the meantime, if we have an olympics venue this yr., I expect the R3 will be in the hands of some Olympic photojournalists for hands on beta testing and to provide Canon feedback on same. I hope that Canon will dangle a few more carrots about it, ie., megapixel capability, which storage cards, battery life, flippy screen?, pricing and more.


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## David - Sydney (Apr 21, 2021)

My previous R1 spec guess was the following based on a combination of R5 and 1DXiii bits. The R3 could have the 1DXiii's mechanical shutter and better DPAF instead of QPAF but it would not be a huge jump between the two. What else could they add?
***
My guess for R1 is minimum specs as R5 but in 1D body ( AF-On smart controller buttons, dual CFe slots) with:
- Global shutter (no mechanical shutter). Rolling shutter artifacts significantly better than current electronic shutter
- Flash sync at any shutter speed
- 45mp sensor with IBIS (IBIS can be turned off)
- QPAF in very low light
- 30fps electronic shutter burst with full tracking - perhaps with buffer ie not unlimited
- ~20mp on-the fly over sampled (no lossy compression/cRAW/S-RAW) at full 30fps unlimited buffer. Best of both worlds.
- Dual Digic X to spread the heat generation and generate less heat per CPU
- Unlimited 8k cinema raw lite internal recording to CFe card capacity
- 6K/60. 4k/120 unlimited no crop internal recording.
- No line skipping/pixel binning 4k/6k modes ie oversampled from full sensor width
- 29:59 recording limit
- Clog2/3
- Minimum 16fps using anti-flicker depending on frequency of the flicker lighting
- Pixel shift high res stills
- 9+ megadot EFV with no blackout and fast refresh rates (at least 120fps). >0.5" in size
- Full sized HDMI 2.1 port (48G) or thunderbolt 3 USB-C or both
- Mini XLR audio option
- Ethernet port
- Flippy screen included. This one I am not sure on but still needed I think. Weather sealing will need to be excellent though
USD10k

Won't directly compete with cinema line due to form factor but there will be a similar specced cinema form factor with unlimited 8k raw option, heaps of buttons and vented/fan cooled. Cxxx option will be more expensive.


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## usern4cr (Apr 22, 2021)

I don't think this will be a QP design, but you never know (it would be great if it was). It might be the high res version that had been rumored about (R5s), or come in at a reasonable 50MP (which would be great).

It may sound silly to all of you, but I'm wondering if it will have a fully articulating screen. It's one I've always insisted on. Having a wonderful R5, I'm in no hurry and can wait if needed for QP and an articulating screen. I wonder how long that will take?

But we will all see ...


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## Ed O. (Apr 22, 2021)

Not 20MP? Maybe it'll be 60MP ... 20MP per layer.


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## peters (Apr 22, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Given I shoot a lot of video, I’m not sure what to think of this offering. Canon didn’t go into the video specs at all. And there does not appear to be any microphone holes on the front of the body. All other Canon cameras have these holes. And since we know that iPhones are water resistant to 30’ we can safely assume this has nothing to do with weather sealing.
> I’m disappointed this camera will not offer global shutter. That would have been awesome. Granted, it will have a stacked sensor, so readout speed should be acceptable. It’s just something I would have liked to see. I have a Red Komodo arriving on Friday and at this point I’m still struggling with weather I should keep it or sell it. While I like the image, it’s all so close anymore that things like AF, low light... become more relevant.


I think its save to say, that the video features will be as good as the R5. 
Even without global shutter, with the promised fast readout speed, rolling shutter should be fine.
I guess it MAY have less MP as the R5 - so maybe only 6k or something in video. But I just cant belive that a higher specced camera will be worse in the video compartment. Just like the 1DX was always better than the 5D in the video features. Similar, but a bit better 
Overheat shouldnt be a problem with the bigger grip - this alone makes this a nobrainer for me  I also expect a better button layout and a bigger HDMI port (hopefuly full size). These are the main complaints for me, coming from the R5 for photo and video work.


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## TAF (Apr 22, 2021)

Ed O. said:


> Not 20MP? Maybe it'll be 60MP ... 20MP per layer.



Does ‘stacked’ imply a Foveon style sensor? Real question; I really don’t know.

I would find that quite interesting. Might prompt me to trade in the R5...


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## AEWest (Apr 22, 2021)

I think that all future pro sports cameras will have minimum resolution of at least 45mp. Processing power is now there for that kind of resolution at 20-30 fps.

In terms of the R1, what about a larger than FF sensor? Anyone know how big the imaging circle is on the RF lenses?


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## StandardLumen (Apr 22, 2021)

While I expect there will eventually be an R1 camera, I think at the time the R3 comes out it will be nothing short of a flagship-level camera. They may be reserving the R1 name for a global shutter or something like that, but for the time being, I think calling this R3 is primarily a marketing maneuver. The R3 will compete directly with the Sony A1, and Canon is sending a message that Sony's best competes with something less than Canon's best.


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## David - Sydney (Apr 22, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> It may sound silly to all of you, but I'm wondering if it will have a fully articulating screen. It's one I've always insisted on. Having a wonderful R5, I'm in no hurry and can wait if needed for QP and an articulating screen. I wonder how long that will take?
> 
> But we will all see ...


Definitely not a silly question... 1D users expect the best weather sealing and ruggedness/reliability. Would a R3 in 1D body have an articulating screen but a R1 not have one? All depends on whether Canon's build the quality. 
If the screen is turned in then it is more rugged than a fixed screen. A tilt screen would be more rugged than an articulating screen but wouldn't make sense in portrait mode and the 1D form factor doesn't align with the shoot-from-the-hip street shooter

How it will fit is another issue. The 1DX III has the same 3.2-inch/. 2.1m dot screen but articulating.The R3's body is smaller than the 1DXiii so perhaps the jog wheel will be smaller to save space as the cards/screen can't reduce in size.

Personally the R5's screen is wonderfully useful. I am not sure that it feels rugged though. I am definitely careful with it when opened up.


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## unfocused (Apr 22, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I think that all future pro sports cameras will have minimum resolution of at least 45mp. Processing power is now there for that kind of resolution at 20-30 fps.
> 
> In terms of the R1, what about a larger than FF sensor? Anyone know how big the imaging circle is on the RF lenses?


Processing power is just one part of the equation. Download and transfer speed can be the real bottleneck, especially as wireless transfers become more common and if you are shooting 16-20 fps. It's ironic that resolution keeps going up at a time when most professional photos (other than portraits and weddings) live entirely on the internet where 1100 pixels is on the large size. 

Canon is not going to make an R body with a sensor larger than full frame. They aren't going to make a square sensor or a sensor in any aspect ratio other than the current 3 x 2.


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## addola (Apr 22, 2021)

Given that this camera is named the R3, and that Canon says it's somewhere between the R5 & the 1DX-III, it's safe to assume that an R1 would also be coming.

The R3 would probably have the specification of a 1D X-level camera, so what could an R1 add over that? Could it be that rumored global shutter?

Personally, I am excited to see these new development in sensor technology & imaging sensors trickle down to more affordable cameras. The R5/R6 Mark II would probably be a huge top-seller.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Apr 22, 2021)

Ah I said in a prior post I was hoping for QPAF and this would make it even more desirable. Finally x-type AF abilities in a non-Olympus camera. I had hoped the AI would finally address this but no such luck. Anyway hope it comes to fruition. I hope resolution isn't too high though, IMO 45-50MP is the sweet spot, any higher and then video becomes more problematic without crop or binning. I'd bee more than happy to see similar res as R5 and hopefully the stacked sensor can do at least 1/200s read speed. But will it have DRAm embedded on sensor?


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## Mr Majestyk (Apr 22, 2021)

Diltiazem said:


> If it is next generation DPAF then it would be DPAF, not quad-pixel AF. The 'resolution trick' could be a lower resolution mode for 30 FPS (a lower FPS for full resolution mode).


Yeah no way will this do 30fps at say 80MP+. Even the A1 uses a slight crop for 30fps mode and it has embedded DRAM. I'm hoping the R3 around 50MP real resolution and has pixel shift for 200MP, but offers in-camera RAW processing to prudce 200MP RAW, and can also be processed in say LR or C1.


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## goldenhusky (Apr 22, 2021)

Image sensor most likely the 45mp from the R5 and "next generation of DPAF" is DPAF2. Most likely this will not overheat with 8k or 4k30 HQ.


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## gmon750 (Apr 22, 2021)

I wasn't quite convinced that the R5 would be the camera that would have me taking the leap to mirrorless. The R3 though might be the one. Very excited to see what this bad boy can do.


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## YEUP (Apr 22, 2021)

Not sure why I sat here and read probably half of the comments. Practically everyone pulling out of thin air whatever wish list item they want to see in a camera..............


----------



## slclick (Apr 22, 2021)

YEUP said:


> Not sure why I sat here and read probably half of the comments. Practically everyone pulling out of thin air whatever wish list item they want to see in a camera..............


Welcome to CR


----------



## HMC11 (Apr 22, 2021)

I wonder if the launch of the R3, plus the eventual announcement of the R1, would bring about a good discount for the R5/6, especially if the specs are a quantum leap or two ahead. One can hope.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 22, 2021)

YEUP said:


> Not sure why I sat here and read probably half of the comments. Practically everyone pulling out of thin air whatever wish list item they want to see in a camera..............


That’s why the second word In the sites name is Rumors, if it were Encyclopedia or Museum we would expect facts.


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## Emyr Evans (Apr 22, 2021)

"Next generation Dual Pixel CMOS AF II can reliably track the eyes and heads of subjects at up to a full 30fps."

Seems to me to be the same - or very similar - AF system found in the R5; i.e Not quad pixel.


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## pape2 (Apr 22, 2021)

I been thinking about global shutter ,i think i know now how make it.
On 20mp rolling shutter there is 5500 wire over sensor and 3600 pixel on each wire.
On global shutter pixels are arranged to boxes not lines,could call them super pixels and readout from super pixel is spirale. so no rolling shutter efects.
This is global shutter becouse *GLOBAL SHUTTER READS ALL* super *PIXELS SIMULTANEOUSLY*. 
Recent huge readout bumb on prototype sensors is from wiring is layered as multiple stacks and imrpoved computer powers.
So more super pixel and smaller super pixels.
Not saying 20 million wire global shutter wouldnt be plausible. i am just bit suspicious. would explain why canon looked like falling behind phonecameras,even they just hid their advancing.


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## exige24 (Apr 22, 2021)

Chaitanya said:


> I am expecting similar Pixel count to Sony A1 with similar video features to R5 and longer record times thanks to larger body. If there is a new battery type, battery life still wont be as good as A1 but massive improvement over R5.


It has a dual battery bay. It the SMOKE the A1's battery life


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## scottkinfw (Apr 22, 2021)

This is sounding like a very sexy camera. What I am still having trouble wrapping my head around is the comment that the R3 is ranked between the R5 and 1DXIII.

I'm still coming up to speed with R5, and I competent with my 1DX (I have had it for a few years and love it) and it is excellent. The R3 sounds great on paper: Better than the R5 but not as good as the 1DXIII. The R1 is supposed to be superior to all of the above, and may be here in a year or more.

I'm thinking that in a year or two, I will have mastered my R5 and will use my 1DXII as a second camera. When the R1 comes out I'll have saved the money and will be ready to step up. Mean time, I am not wanting for anything, and I'll be the first to admit that my gear is a lot better than I am, but I work hard to grow into it!


----------



## Chig (Apr 22, 2021)

st jack photography said:


> I am excited about this R3. I like it when camera companies innovate. I look back on past cameras, like the waist-level cameras and cameras that shot square frames and I dream big. I want a camera that shoots native squares, using the absolute best part of the lenses.
> 
> 
> I know that mirrorless cameras shoot a 1:1 square image when shot through a digital viewfinder, but does anyone else besides me have an interest in a BSI sensor that is for RF lenses but measures square, like a 30mm x 30mm sensor, something also high megapixel (60+) for cropping? With the RF mount, larger than 30mm x 30mm may be possible. I know I will never likely see this, but when I see innovation like the r3, I get inspired.


Even better would be a round sensor 43mm in diameter so you can choose to crop : protrait, landscape , square or circular at the flick of a switch and you wouldn't need a vertical grip at , also camera could keep the chosen crop level automatically


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## pape2 (Apr 22, 2021)

Chig said:


> Even better would be a round sensor 43mm in diameter so you can choose to crop : protrait, landscape , square or circular at the flick of a switch and you wouldn't need a vertical grip at , also camera could keep the chosen crop level automatically


Maybe when readout speeds allow it ,10 year later?
Or they rather want 16 pixel autofocus


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## H. Jones (Apr 22, 2021)

Random thought, since we're all still spitballing, but I'm wondering if the "focus using your eye" tech Canon is mentioning will also allow them to return to using normal eyecups? The EOS 3's eye position sensor was inside the viewfinder itself, and used normal removable eyecups. I desperately hope that the R3 also has user replaceable eyecups, because it drives me crazy that I can't swap the R5's eyepiece out. My weather covers work OK on the R5, but nothing near as nice as the replaceable ones on my 1DX2 and 5D3.


----------



## canonmike (Apr 22, 2021)

gmon750 said:


> I wasn't quite convinced that the R5 would be the camera that would have me taking the leap to mirrorless. The R3 though might be the one. Very excited to see what this bad boy can do.


I'm sure there are more that may just echo your sentiments, especially your last statement. Real question now is, How long will we have to wait? Bring it on Canon.


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## quilatoo (Apr 22, 2021)

Something I don't understand about global shutter technology in mirrorless cameras is why exactly it isn't possible at the moment.

Not at the higher framerates of electronic shutters of course but at around the mechanical shutter framerate. I guess I don't get what exactly a mechanical shutter is doing that prevents the rolling shutter effect and why something like the R5 can't shoot silently at 8fps and not get that banding effect.

The R3 is definitely intriguing, especially if it is in a similar range to the R5 MP count.


----------



## zonoskar (Apr 22, 2021)

I like the idea of DPAF with alternating horizontal and vertical orientation. That could also be the 'pixel trick' this rumor talks about and still technically be dual pixel AF, but the next version.

Oh, wait. The rumor talks about resolution trick. So it's probably not related to the DPAF orientation. I still like the idea though.


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## bernie_king (Apr 22, 2021)

exige24 said:


> It has a dual battery bay. It the SMOKE the A1's battery life


It will likely have a single LP-E19 battery like the 1DX III which would be fantastic. It's higher voltage and higher capacity. The higher voltage pushes the big white lenses faster which makes a huge difference in focus acquisition. They are expensive, but worth it. Battery life would more than double 2 lp-e6nh batteries. I always wished that Canon would give us the option in lower cameras (like the R5) to put an LP-E19 into a grip like Nikon did with the D500, D810, etc... where you could either put in two of the regular batteries or the bigger battery from the D6. An LP-E19 would've been a great option for the R5.


----------



## chasingrealness (Apr 22, 2021)

I want this to be true, but I don’t want to get my hopes up. The new lenses are scheduled for delivery to stores on 7/29 - wonder what the timeframe will be for this one?


----------



## Photox (Apr 22, 2021)

I’m really excited about the Eye Control AF. Curious how much getting used to it will take and how faster will you get not missing stuff cuz of changing the AF point on the joystick/touch. 30fps also sounds nice, but the one thing i hope is it stays the 1D sized battery. I hate how fps drops on my R6 when battery goes low.


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 22, 2021)

chasingrealness said:


> I want this to be true, but I don’t want to get my hopes up. The new lenses are scheduled for delivery to stores on 7/29 - wonder what the timeframe will be for this one?


Completely different production lines. Big Whites are (I believe) hand built. Cameras are not. I expect a release around the Olympics


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## degos (Apr 22, 2021)

quilatoo said:


> I guess I don't get what exactly a mechanical shutter is doing that prevents the rolling shutter effect and why something like the R5 can't shoot silently at 8fps and not get that banding effect.


A mechanical shutter absolutely produces rolling-shutter effect at low shutter speeds; that's where the name originated! Try panning at 1/20th with a subject that's not exactly perpendicular and you'll find that because the curtain takes a finite time to cross the frame, part of the subject is distorted. Because the angular distance changed by the time that the curtain crossed the frame.

Sensor horizontal readout lag is exactly that, and has nothing to do with shutter speed. But the tag "rolling-shutter" was applied because it shows similar artifacts.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 22, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> ...I expect a release around the Olympics


A safe bet if you aren't too particular about which Olympics. Certainly not the ones scheduled for this year.


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## Cernow (Apr 22, 2021)

Hi,

Canon sent me this...






Canon EOS R3 – Spiegellose Profi-Kamera - Canon Deutschland


Die spiegellose Profi-Vollformatkamera EOS R3 wurde entwickelt, um die Anforderungen professioneller Sportfotografen mit hoher Zuverlässigkeit und Robustheit zu erfüllen.




www.canon.de





not sure you can find it in English


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## LSXPhotog (Apr 22, 2021)

The more I think about this camera, the more I’m getting excited. Just waiting on the key specs from the sensor resolution, video shooting options, and battery/card information. I pray that Canon considers a battery that could slide into and be utilized by the R5/R6 grip as well.It may not sound like that big of a deal, but if I could travel with 1 charger that would charge batteries I could use in both cameras I bring would be incredible....but I’m not holding my breathe on this one. I would selfishly love to see the tray for the LP-E6NH batteries have a more powerful alternative like Nikon offers with its D850, which can use the D5 battery for better performance.


----------



## pape2 (Apr 22, 2021)

Is there any rumours around 20mp sensor what can do speeds like 100 frame inside 1/100s or 1/1000s
Those are speeds i would wait from ultimate Global shutter,may not able do long burst like that without overheat.


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## bernie_king (Apr 22, 2021)

unfocused said:


> A safe bet if you aren't too particular about which Olympics. Certainly not the ones scheduled for this year.


I'd bet on the one this year. There's not typically a big gap between development announcements and formal announcements. I expect we'll see the formal announcement around the Olympics complete with photos taken at said Olympics and sports shooters doing their testimonial videos about how great it was to use there. Kind of like the 1D4 announcement around the Winter Olympics. Us mere mortals will probably get a shot at one this fall. This camera's been cooking for some time now, it won't be as long as you think.


----------



## Joules (Apr 22, 2021)

Cernow said:


> Hi,
> 
> Canon sent me this...
> 
> ...


My takeaways:

The sensor is not global shutter, as they claim minimal rolling shutter (Nothing new about that, of course).

They are still calling it DPAF II, so it can't be that resolutionary. Something like alternating orientations or even 4 photo sites per pixel surely would have warranted a DPAF III or QPAF name.

Interestingly, they claim significantly reduced weight compared to a 1 series body.

Other than that, I don't think anything about it is new.


----------



## usern4cr (Apr 22, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Definitely not a silly question... 1D users expect the best weather sealing and ruggedness/reliability. Would a R3 in 1D body have an articulating screen but a R1 not have one? All depends on whether Canon's build the quality.
> If the screen is turned in then it is more rugged than a fixed screen. A tilt screen would be more rugged than an articulating screen but wouldn't make sense in portrait mode and the 1D form factor doesn't align with the shoot-from-the-hip street shooter
> 
> How it will fit is another issue. The 1DX III has the same 3.2-inch/. 2.1m dot screen but articulating.The R3's body is smaller than the 1DXiii so perhaps the jog wheel will be smaller to save space as the cards/screen can't reduce in size.
> ...


I have had the fully articulating screen ("FAS") on my Oly EM1_II for 3 years, and on my R5 for a year. They are completely reliable (for my usage). Mind you, I'm not being so careless that I bang it around and expect it to survive any extreme carelessness or accidental disasters like dropping the camera onto concrete.

I do like to take lots of portrait shots at waist level (or other unusual angles) and you just can't do it (easily or sufficiently well) without a FAS.

I like it so much, that if the R3 has stacked BSI, QP AF and 45MP or more (my dream camera) but doesn't have a FAS then I will really be torn whether to buy it as a 2nd body or to wait until they come out with stacked BSI, QP AF & 45MP+ sensor with FAS (preferably without an integrated grip, but I could tolerate that if I had to).
I'm assuming the R3 will "only" have DP so if it doesn't have a FAS then I'll probably wait to see what the next body has.


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 22, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> The more I think about this camera, the more I’m getting excited. Just waiting on the key specs from the sensor resolution, video shooting options, and battery/card information. I pray that Canon considers a battery that could slide into and be utilized by the R5/R6 grip as well.It may not sound like that big of a deal, but if I could travel with 1 charger that would charge batteries I could use in both cameras I bring would be incredible....but I’m not holding my breathe on this one. I would selfishly love to see the tray for the LP-E6NH batteries have a more powerful alternative like Nikon offers with its D850, which can use the D5 battery for better performance.



The obvious answer for your charging issue is going to be USB-C charging. I'm confident Canon will release this with some kind of LP-E19NH battery that accepts USB-C charging. If that happens, could either leave behind the LP-E6 charger or the bigger LP-E19 charger and just charge the batteries in camera.

In a pinch, I charge my EOS R5 with my USB-C MacBook Pro charger. No issues since the end of July doing this occasionally when I need to, and it charges very quickly. The R5 also works with my Power Delivery USB-C charging bank, which can charge the battery several times over on one charge. So in the future, I could see myself charging my R5 with the power bank in the field, and charging my R3 with a MacBook Pro charger if I was somehow away from my battery chargers.


----------



## john1970 (Apr 22, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> I'd bet on the one this year. There's not typically a big gap between development announcements and formal announcements. I expect we'll see the formal announcement around the Olympics complete with photos taken at said Olympics and sports shooters doing their testimonial videos about how great it was to use there. Kind of like the 1D4 announcement around the Winter Olympics. Us mere mortals will probably get a shot at one this fall. This camera's been cooking for some time now, it won't be as long as you think.


I agree. The Canon R5 had a development announcement in Feb 2020 and an official announcement date was July 2020. I would expect the same here with about 4-5 months between the development and official announcement. I would expect the official announcement in late Aug or early September with availability in the fall 2021.


----------



## jam05 (Apr 22, 2021)

Chaitanya said:


> I am expecting similar Pixel count to Sony A1 with similar video features to R5 and longer record times thanks to larger body. If there is a new battery type, battery life still wont be as good as A1 but massive improvement over R5.


It will more than likely be way better than the A1. There's more room for a larger capacity. Obviously. Any speculaton otherwise is simply ignoring physics and electronics.


----------



## jam05 (Apr 22, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Given I shoot a lot of video, I’m not sure what to think of this offering. Canon didn’t go into the video specs at all. And there does not appear to be any microphone holes on the front of the body. All other Canon cameras have these holes. And since we know that iPhones are water resistant to 30’ we can safely assume this has nothing to do with weather sealing.
> I’m disappointed this camera will not offer global shutter. That would have been awesome. Granted, it will have a stacked sensor, so readout speed should be acceptable. It’s just something I would have liked to see. I have a Red Komodo arriving on Friday and at this point I’m still struggling with weather I should keep it or sell it. While I like the image, it’s all so close anymore that things like AF, low light... become more relevant.


Every camera isn't for everyone. Being a RED owner of their new Cine offering why be concerned about a non-Cine camera that is somewhere between the R5 and upcoming R1? This camera isn't designed for the Cine shooter. Would suggest using the right device for the designed application. Hybrid cameras without active cooling have basically plateude and topped out. Their days have past because of size and heat limitations. This device wont be shipping to regular consumers for quite awhile. It will be showcased in Tokyo during Japan's Olympics but dont expect it shipping global before then. Chasing specs is an never ending venture. An about, weather sealing. It has nothing to do with submerged devices. Submerging a smartphone is purely a marketing ploy. IP 64 ratings don't include being submerged. Weather sealing doesn't mean " Water Proof". Those visual indents most often contained gaskets within that only open when a connector is inserted. Rain or IP 64 direct showering of water won't enter. Sealing or internal gaskets for mic holes have been around for decades.


----------



## randym77 (Apr 22, 2021)

Cernow said:


> Hi,
> 
> Canon sent me this...
> 
> ...



It does sound very much like the R3 will be a mirrorless 1dx. I'd be happy with a lighter weight. Love my 1dx, but it's heavy.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 22, 2021)

unfocused said:


> A safe bet if you aren't too particular about which Olympics. Certainly not the ones scheduled for this year.


I’m curious, what is the basis for your certainty?

For the 1D X, the development announcement was in Oct 2011 and the camera launched in Jun 2012, 8 months later (my pre-order arrived in early July). The development announcement for the 1D X III was in Oct 2019 and the camera officially launched in Jan 2020 – just 3 months later, which is about how long we are from the Olympics. Wider availability for the 1D X III was in Mar 2020. 

Personally, I think it’s quite possible we’ll see a formal launch this July and lots of R3 bodies in use at the Olympics, with wider public availability in September.


----------



## PureClassA (Apr 22, 2021)

I was really waiting to see the R1 but this thing seems like it might be perfect. A RF mount in a 1D body type. Perfect. Cant wait to get some sensor specs. We already know the AF will be outstanding.


----------



## Bonich (Apr 22, 2021)

DBounce said:


> So You are thinking this camera will get under 80 minutes of recording time? I somehow doubt that.


Battery will be the same as 1DXIII.


----------



## Bonich (Apr 22, 2021)

highdesertmesa said:


> The R3 would make for a strange high-res camera since landscape shooters typically want the smallest/lightest setup – especially in light of the small form factor for the GFX 100S. Wonder if the R5s will still be a separate camera or if it's dead for now.


This body never for a high res landscape focus.
This body is for sport & wildlife.


----------



## Bonich (Apr 22, 2021)

st jack photography said:


> I am excited about this R3. I like it when camera companies innovate. I look back on past cameras, like the waist-level cameras and cameras that shot square frames and I dream big. I want a camera that shoots native squares, using the absolute best part of the lenses.
> 
> 
> I know that mirrorless cameras shoot a 1:1 square image when shot through a digital viewfinder, but does anyone else besides me have an interest in a BSI sensor that is for RF lenses but measures square, like a 30mm x 30mm sensor, something also high megapixel (60+) for cropping? With the RF mount, larger than 30mm x 30mm may be possible. I know I will never likely see this, but when I see innovation like the r3, I get inspired.


RF lenses are not made to handle a 30x30 sensor.
Tale off the cap ant take a look!


----------



## Bonich (Apr 22, 2021)

exige24 said:


> It has a dual battery bay. It the SMOKE the A1's battery life


Battery is identical/exchagable to 1DXIII


----------



## jayphotoworks (Apr 22, 2021)

Bonich said:


> Battery will be the same as 1DXIII.



Assuming all else is equal, I think battery life will largely be similar if you grip the A1 as the NP-FZ100 batteries are 16.4Wh each and you can use two of them and a single LP-E19 is ~30Wh.


----------



## chasingrealness (Apr 22, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> Completely different production lines. Big Whites are (I believe) hand built. Cameras are not. I expect a release around the Olympics


So it would have to be end of June I would think to give time for pre-orders and shipping? And could that mean they would need to start letting people know what we are looking at in early/mid-May?


----------



## DBounce (Apr 22, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Every camera isn't for everyone. Being a RED owner of their new Cine offering why be concerned about a non-Cine camera that is somewhere between the R5 and upcoming R1? This camera isn't designed for the Cine shooter. Would suggest using the right device for the designed application. Hybrid cameras without active cooling have basically plateude and topped out. Their days have past because of size and heat limitations. This device wont be shipping to regular consumers for quite awhile. It will be showcased in Tokyo during Japan's Olympics but dont expect it shipping global before then. Chasing specs is an never ending venture. An about, weather sealing. It has nothing to do with submerged devices. Submerging a smartphone is purely a marketing ploy. IP 64 ratings don't include being submerged. Weather sealing doesn't mean " Water Proof". Those visual indents most often contained gaskets within that only open when a connector is inserted. Rain or IP 64 direct showering of water won't enter. Sealing or internal gaskets for mic holes have been around for decades.


We have no idea what this camera will be or how capable it will be for video. While Komodo is great, we are still talking S35 vs full frame. And honestly, there are many places where shooting with a Red is not going to be welcomed, whereas a hybrid will go largely unnoticed.
As for weather sealing, I’m not talking about a microphone input jack... I’m talking about a “built-in” microphone... which would require holes to let sound in. All other Canon cameras seem to have these holes, somewhere on the front of the camera... this one does not.


----------



## DBounce (Apr 22, 2021)

Bonich said:


> Battery will be the same as 1DXIII.


While I want this to be true, as I have a few spares and accessories; we have no confirmation of this at present.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Apr 22, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Given I shoot a lot of video, I’m not sure what to think of this offering. Canon didn’t go into the video specs at all. And there does not appear to be any microphone holes on the front of the body. All other Canon cameras have these holes. And since we know that iPhones are water resistant to 30’ we can safely assume this has nothing to do with weather sealing.
> I’m disappointed this camera will not offer global shutter. That would have been awesome. Granted, it will have a stacked sensor, so readout speed should be acceptable. It’s just something I would have liked to see. I have a Red Komodo arriving on Friday and at this point I’m still struggling with weather I should keep it or sell it. While I like the image, it’s all so close anymore that things like AF, low light... become more relevant.



I struggled with that decision making process as well. I got my Komodo early last year as I was one of the original Stormtrooper pre-orders. While they later offered improved AF performance and compatibility with RF lenses, it was always meant to operate best using MF. There are certain quirks too with the AF where you have to toggle it on and off in the UI to respond and it doesn't play well with certain Sigma lenses. I would say the AF is a few generations behind current MILCs in terms of both performance and flexibility so it wouldn't be a great match for certain types of shooting. But obviously, as you know, R3D raw workflow is well established and the IQ the comes with it. 

The only other issue I had was with the fixed monitor on top because unless you are 7ft tall, you won't be able to operate the camera once it is on sticks so you will need an external monitor. The control ring variable-nd RF-EF functionality was great with my older Canon EF lenses, so I shot a number of projects on it over the summer.

Later in the year, with the long back-order from RED, I was able to sell it and break even, so I finally decided to consolidate all of my shooting equipment to Sony after supporting two mounts for so many years. I think current Canon filmmakers shooting narrative mainly would be a good match for the Komodo, but for a system that can do a bit of everything from docs, run-n-gun,etc, and way better AF, a C70 would probably be a better choice.


----------



## DBounce (Apr 22, 2021)

jayphotoworks said:


> I struggled with that decision making process as well. I got my Komodo early last year as I was one of the original Stormtrooper pre-orders. While they later offered improved AF performance and compatibility with RF lenses, it was always meant to operate best using MF. There are certain quirks too with the AF where you have to toggle it on and off in the UI to respond and it doesn't play well with certain Sigma lenses. I would say the AF is a few generations behind current MILCs in terms of both performance and flexibility so it wouldn't be a great match for certain types of shooting. But obviously, as you know, R3D raw workflow is well established and the IQ the comes with it.
> 
> The only other issue I had was with the fixed monitor on top because unless you are 7ft tall, you won't be able to operate the camera once it is on sticks so you will need an external monitor. The control ring variable-nd RF-EF functionality was great with my older Canon EF lenses, so I shot a number of projects on it over the summer.
> 
> Later in the year, with the long back-order from RED, I was able to sell it and break even, so I finally decided to consolidate all of my shooting equipment to Sony after supporting two mounts for so many years. I think current Canon filmmakers shooting narrative mainly would be a good match for the Komodo, but for a system that can do a bit of everything from docs, run-n-gun,etc, and way better AF, a C70 would probably be a better choice.


Interesting, I was originally on the list for the Orange, then baby blue then storm trooper then black production version... but I turned them down, because I wanted to see some compelling footage and get user feedback. Pioneers get the arrows, settlers get the land. During the wait the C70 and Sony FX6 came out... and I bought both. I ended up parting with the Canon. The C70 is a fantastic camera, to be sure, but the Sony was the better fit for me. The Sony is currently my go to run n gun camera.

So after all this, I’m still not 100% sold on the Red, but I figured I can test it out, and if I’m not convinced I can always sell it. I love my Sony, and I’m hoping that Sony finally releases the WDR (Wide Dynamic Range) firmware update... that could be game changing.

When I purchased my RF glass, I did so hoping for the elusive “Pro” body that was around the corner. I’m still waiting; But I’m also hoping that perhaps, the R3 might actually be that unicorn.


----------



## slclick (Apr 22, 2021)

All I read is stills champion. Video peeps, you have your tools.


----------



## LSXPhotog (Apr 22, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> The obvious answer for your charging issue is going to be USB-C charging. I'm confident Canon will release this with some kind of LP-E19NH battery that accepts USB-C charging. If that happens, could either leave behind the LP-E6 charger or the bigger LP-E19 charger and just charge the batteries in camera.
> 
> In a pinch, I charge my EOS R5 with my USB-C MacBook Pro charger. No issues since the end of July doing this occasionally when I need to, and it charges very quickly. The R5 also works with my Power Delivery USB-C charging bank, which can charge the battery several times over on one charge. So in the future, I could see myself charging my R5 with the power bank in the field, and charging my R3 with a MacBook Pro charger if I was somehow away from my battery chargers.


Unfortunately, I can't charge my batteries in the camera and will routinely go through 4-8 battery sessions a day and need at least one set of batteries ready to go when I get a chance to unload my cards in the tower before heading back out.


----------



## canonmike (Apr 22, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> I'd bet on the one this year. There's not typically a big gap between development announcements and formal announcements. I expect we'll see the formal announcement around the Olympics complete with photos taken at said Olympics and sports shooters doing their testimonial videos about how great it was to use there. Kind of like the 1D4 announcement around the Winter Olympics. Us mere mortals will probably get a shot at one this fall. This camera's been cooking for some time now, it won't be as long as you think.


I have to agree and think your guess on a release date would be about right.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 22, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> I’d think one of the differentiating factors would be card slots, I’d think both will have two card slots but the R3 will have two different card types, the R1 a single card type.


Two things.
1) 1Dx II has different card slots with 1 CFast and 1 CFX.
2) Headlining 30 FPS but having one card slot would be bogus.
If anything I would expect R1 to have 1 CF Express and 1 next-level card like a CFX Type C or something.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 22, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Why, the global shutter on the C700 is a $2,000 option. Put a $2,000 premium on the R1 over the R3 and you are done. Though I'd expect a lot of smaller refinements to differentiate the two as well.


Also, RED Komodo has a global shutter and it is their cheapest camera.
From my understanding, the only difference between a stacked CMOS sensor and a global shutter CMOS sensor is that a stacked sensor has internal memory to store parts of an image for faster reading while a global shutter serializes and stores the entire image in internal memory.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 23, 2021)

quilatoo said:


> Something I don't understand about global shutter technology in mirrorless cameras is why exactly it isn't possible at the moment.
> 
> Not at the higher framerates of electronic shutters of course but at around the mechanical shutter framerate. I guess I don't get what exactly a mechanical shutter is doing that prevents the rolling shutter effect and why something like the R5 can't shoot silently at 8fps and not get that banding effect.
> 
> The R3 is definitely intriguing, especially if it is in a similar range to the R5 MP count.


The higher the resolution, the higher the signal noise on the sensor.
It is akin to the more people in a room, the more noise they make.
In a global shutter, the entire sensor is turned on so it creates more noise than a rolling shutter.
A mechanical is shutter is similar.
Even though the sensor is turned on one line at a time, the entire sensor is on before the shutter opens.
However, the longer exposure time helps filter out noise that is not fixed pattern noise.
The line-by-line reading is done while the shutter is closed which is why there are no rolling shutter artifacts.

PS: The sensor gets turned off line-by-line after each line is read from the sensor.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 23, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Two things.
> 1) 1Dx II has different card slots with 1 CFast and 1 CFX.
> 2) Headlining 30 FPS but having one card slot would be bogus.
> If anything I would expect R1 to have 1 CF Express and 1 next-level card like a CFX Type C or something.


Yes and what a mess that 1DX II is! The 1DX and 1DX III both had the same kinds of slots, dual CF and CFExpress respectively. 

I can’t imagine an R3 would have a single slot, that’s why I said I thought it would have two, but to differentiate the R1 and R3 the R3 would have different card types and the R1 the same. I think that is a fairly safe bet, but I could easily be wrong!


----------



## DBounce (Apr 23, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Yes and what a mess that 1DX II is! The 1DX and 1DX III both had the same kinds of slots, dual CF and CFExpress respectively.
> 
> I can’t imagine an R3 would have a single slot, that’s why I said I thought it would have two, but to differentiate the R1 and R3 the R3 would have different card types and the R1 the same. I think that is a fairly safe bet, but I could easily be wrong!


I’m guessing it will have two CF Express Type-B slots. I can’t see a reason for anything less.


----------



## john1970 (Apr 23, 2021)

DBounce said:


> I’m guessing it will have two CF Express Type-B slots. I can’t see a reason for anything less.


I hope you are correct. Having a R3 with two CFE Type B would be ideal.


----------



## pape2 (Apr 23, 2021)

Bonich said:


> RF lenses are not made to handle a 30x30 sensor.
> Tale off the cap ant take a look!


ohh crap so i need cut 3mm from every picture sides ,darn thats worky


----------



## Chig (Apr 23, 2021)

pape2 said:


> ohh crap so i need cut 3mm from every picture sides ,darn thats worky


No th


pape2 said:


> ohh crap so i need cut 3mm from every picture sides ,darn thats worky


No that's incorrect :
a FF Canon sensor measures 24x36mm so the image circle must be square root of (24x24 + 36x36) = 43.26mm diameter
a square 30x30 sensor would need an image circle of 42.42mm diameter i.e slightly less
A round sensor of 43mm diameter would be better still


----------



## Kit. (Apr 23, 2021)

About that "resolution trick"... an option to produce 20-megapixel in-camera JPEGs should not be hard to implement on a 80-megapixel sports camera.


----------



## pape2 (Apr 23, 2021)

I wonder if R3 is first canon camera with 3 stabilation, IS ibis and dicital aligned stack postprosessing when exposure is longer than 1/30s.
Could just remove one 1/30s layer from stack when picture is burned out.
With 300 pic buffer could get 10 second stabilation for handhold.
If exposure intervals between two exposure is short enough so wont cause light loss.


----------



## djack41 (Apr 23, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Given I shoot a lot of video, I’m not sure what to think of this offering. Canon didn’t go into the video specs at all. And there does not appear to be any microphone holes on the front of the body. All other Canon cameras have these holes. And since we know that iPhones are water resistant to 30’ we can safely assume this has nothing to do with weather sealing.
> I’m disappointed this camera will not offer global shutter. That would have been awesome. Granted, it will have a stacked sensor, so readout speed should be acceptable. It’s just something I would have liked to see. I have a Red Komodo arriving on Friday and at this point I’m still struggling with weather I should keep it or sell it. While I like the image, it’s all so close anymore that things like AF, low light... become more relevant.


Why are you disappointed? You haven't seen the specs. Maybe it will.


----------



## DBounce (Apr 23, 2021)

djack41 said:


> Why are you disappointed? You haven't seen the specs. Maybe it will.


_*I’m disappointed this camera will not offer global shutter.*_

I’m pretty sure Canon has already revealed that the R3 will feature a stacked sensor with fast rolling shutter... not global shutter. So yes, I’ve seen this spec.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 23, 2021)

Kit. said:


> About that "resolution trick"... an option to produce 20-megapixel in-camera JPEGs should not be hard to implement on a 80-megapixel sports camera.


Replace JPEG with Compressed RAW and you might be on to something.
It is best to shoot JPEG + RAW and use the RAW if editing is required.


----------



## pape2 (Apr 23, 2021)

DBounce said:


> _*I’m disappointed this camera will not offer global shutter.*_
> 
> I’m pretty sure Canon has already revealed that the R3 will feature a stacked sensor with fast rolling shutter... not global shutter. So yes, I’ve seen this spec.


Isnt it pretty silly ,canon got that allmighty true global shutter ,but their second best offer cant get rid even rolling shutter distortions. Bit like sport car and kick scooter


----------



## slclick (Apr 23, 2021)

So many assertions here with a pre dev announcement. You guys should focus on climate change, curing cancer and world hunger.


----------



## DBounce (Apr 23, 2021)

pape2 said:


> Isnt it pretty silly ,canon got that allmighty true global shutter ,but their second best offer cant get rid even rolling shutter distortions. Bit like sport car and kick scooter


That’s true, but... few would argue that Arri is largely considered the pinnacle of digital cinema atm. But yet both the Arri Mini LF and Arri Alexa Plus have rolling shutter of around 7.2ms... that’s only about 1ms better than the Sony A7S3. And here’s anther fact most probably don’t know... film has rolling shutter also.


----------



## RunAndGun (Apr 23, 2021)

skp said:


> I'd love to see something absolutely bananas, but theoretically possible: a full-frame 3-chip stills camera using a prism like almost all video cameras used to do a decade ago


It would be a beast(size), not to mention the cost. 

I asked someone else in the industry years ago why we didn’t have 3-chip s35 cameras(much less “FF“ sensors) and the two main answers were size and cost. Then throw in the complexity. Things to think about include the lenses are not designed to work with a prism like our “TV” lenses are, so you‘d have to design an optical correction system to go between the optical block and lens. And the higher the resolution the more difficult(if not impossible after a certain threshold) it becomes to line all three chips up, so that you don’t have registration errors. Although, speaking in a strictly stills manner, there are cameras with “pixel shift” systems/technology that move the sensors to allow for higher-than-native resolution capture, so maybe, it that regard, it would be possible to line the images up, if not at time of capture, then in post.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 23, 2021)

RunAndGun said:


> It would be a beast(size), not to mention the cost.
> 
> I asked someone else in the industry years ago why we didn’t have 3-chip s35 cameras(much less “FF“ sensors) and the two main answers were size and cost. Then throw in the complexity. Things to think about include the lenses are not designed to work with a prism like our “TV” lenses are, so you‘d have to design an optical correction system to go between the optical block and lens. And the higher the resolution the more difficult(if not impossible after a certain threshold) it becomes to line all three chips up, so that you don’t have registration errors. Although, speaking in a strictly stills manner, there are cameras with “pixel shift” systems/technology that move the sensors to allow for higher-than-native resolution capture, so maybe, it that regard, it would be possible to line the images up, if not at time of capture, then in post.


And all for what? Three chip cameras were important when the resolution was under 600 lines and the image frames were interlaced because Bayer array sensors didn’t have enough color information to accurately interpolate with. Now with the resolution of sensors we have that isn’t true and Bayer arrays work very well in most cases.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 23, 2021)

DBounce said:


> _*I’m disappointed this camera will not offer global shutter.*_
> 
> I’m pretty sure Canon has already revealed that the R3 will feature a stacked sensor with fast rolling shutter... not global shutter. So yes, I’ve seen this spec.


Why? Who else offers a still camera with a global shutter and how much is it?


----------



## DBounce (Apr 23, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Why? Who else offers a still camera with a global shutter and how much is it?


I primarily shoot video. Hence, *my* disappointment.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 23, 2021)

DBounce said:


> I primarily shoot video. Hence, *my* disappointment.


Buy a Komodo?


----------



## StandardLumen (Apr 23, 2021)

DBounce said:


> I primarily shoot video. Hence, *my* disappointment.


I understand why you were hopeful for a global shutter, and why that would be disappointing, but as far as I know there is not currently any global shutter sensor higher than 20 megapixels, and if I were to guess we will never see another hybrid camera with a resolution that low. If a hybrid camera is what you want, it'll probably be another year or two.


----------



## DBounce (Apr 23, 2021)

StandardLumen said:


> I understand why you were hopeful for a global shutter, and why that would be disappointing, but as far as I know there is not currently any global shutter sensor higher than 20 megapixels, and if I were to guess we will never see another hybrid camera with a resolution that low. If a hybrid camera is what you want, it'll probably be another year or two.


Well by your own logic, given that the R1 is rumored to have a global shutter, and will likely be more than 20MP; I’m thinking the water might be shorter than to think.


----------



## StandardLumen (Apr 23, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Well by your own logic, given that the R1 is rumored to have a global shutter, and will likely be more than 20MP; I’m thinking the water might be shorter than to think.


I hope you're right, but my reasoning is that the R3 is at least a few months away, and the R1 will be after that, so I don't think the R1 is coming out this year. (Which is consistent with what CanonRumors reported last month)


----------



## pape2 (Apr 24, 2021)

StandardLumen said:


> I understand why you were hopeful for a global shutter, and why that would be disappointing, but as far as I know there is not currently any global shutter sensor higher than 20 megapixels, and if I were to guess we will never see another hybrid camera with a resolution that low. If a hybrid camera is what you want, it'll probably be another year or two.


No no noo its insanity do over 20mp sensor untill it can do 100fps ,with that speed you can get rid mechanical shutter and ibis.
But i guess R3 is higher mp so crazy peoples can shoot 8k without overheat,


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 24, 2021)

skp said:


> I'd love to see something absolutely bananas, but theoretically possible: a full-frame 3-chip stills camera using a prism like almost all video cameras used to do a decade ago


It would obviously need to be PL or EF in order to fit the prism.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 24, 2021)

pape2 said:


> Still not impressive ,could be next generation stacked rolling shutter sensor prototype.


No camera exists with a global shutter uncropped RAW at 120p, 20 MP, and 20 EV.
Komodo only goes up to 40 FPS and 16 EV.
Despite that people were wowed by it and it is considered state of the art.
RED expensive rolling shutter cameras only go up to 18 EV.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 24, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> It may sound silly to all of you, but I'm wondering if it will have a fully articulating screen. It's one I've always insisted on. Having a wonderful R5, I'm in no hurry and can wait if needed for QP and an articulating screen. I wonder how long that will take?
> 
> But we will all see ...


A rugged fully articulating screen seems quite possible.
A fixed glass screen does not seem very rugged in the first place.
The screen is the biggest weak point of the Olympus Tough.
I always wish that had a flip-screen.
GoPro has an indestructible screen but it helps that it is so tiny.


----------



## dolina (Apr 24, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Nice to know that my previous position getting a lot of validation from Canon Inc. 

Take that! Nay sayers!


----------



## Joules (Apr 24, 2021)

dolina said:


> Nice to know that my previous position getting a lot of validation from Canon Inc.
> 
> Take that! Nay sayers!


That position would be...?


----------



## pape2 (Apr 24, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> No camera exists with a global shutter uncropped RAW at 120p, 20 MP, and 20 EV.


I believe theoretical max frame rate for 1dx3 kind of camera with global shutter would be around 80000fp /s
If 1dx3 sensor got 3500 pixel on one circuit ,then sensor with 1 pixel/ circuit would be 3500x faster right ?
Sorry if i got things wrong ,if i tell truth i dont understand much about sensor tech 
I guess 120fps could be just practical limit ,no sense shoot faster on any situation.


----------



## DBounce (Apr 24, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Buy a Komodo?


I already did... in December... it arrives today


----------



## John Wilde (Apr 24, 2021)

The spec rumors about the M50 Mark II were significantly wrong, so I don't have much faith in these spec rumors.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Apr 24, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> No camera exists with a global shutter uncropped RAW at 120p, 20 MP, and 20 EV.
> Komodo only goes up to 40 FPS and 16 EV.
> Despite that people were wowed by it and it is considered state of the art.
> RED expensive rolling shutter cameras only go up to 18 EV.



The Komodo can get up to 50fps shooting 6K 2.4:1 WS. That was the mode I was shooting at most of the time. The biggest challenge is that it uses DCT compression which is so much larger compared to the Raven/Scarlet I was shooting on which uses wavelet compression. The same ratios aren't comparable and you need a ton of CFAST cards which is at least a bunch cheaper than those mini-mags which cost a fortune.

Overall, the crop isn't bad with the Komodo @ 6K which is approx. APS-H crop. But if you need 60p you have to drop down to 4K which is a 2X crop ~MFT coverage. But the global shutter is great as it has nicer handheld motion cadence compared to most rolling shutter cameras. I was also capturing some run-n-gun footage at an event and the photography strobes would be evenly lit without the jarring bars you normally get. 

I think that it isn't that the Komodo is necessarily state of the art, but it is exciting for the RED crowd as it is the first sub 10k RED camera giving you access to the R3D workflow without needing a ton of expensive accessories and can shoot largely out of the box. The fact that has a small footprint and also supports Canon's newest mount is a bonus.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 24, 2021)

DBounce said:


> I already did... in December... it arrives today


Seems like they take a good bit of building out but they look like very nice tools. Did you go for a $1,000 color option? Can you imagine if Canon offered that....


----------



## DBounce (Apr 24, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Seems like they take a good bit of building out but they look like very nice tools. Did you go for a $1,000 color option? Can you imagine if Canon offered that....


I was on the wait list from the beginning, but when the custom colors were offered and later the storm troopers, I passed, as I wanted a production camera. I also wanted to see more footage and independent reviews. I guess I’m just not as comfortable with Red, as a brand, as I am with Canon and Sony. If the specs on the R3 are to my liking I’ll probably just preorder. Red still had some catch up to go as far as things like AF.


----------



## dolina (Apr 24, 2021)

Joules said:


> That position would be...?


They wont release an R1 this year because it would cannibalize sales of the 1D X Mark III.

My I updated my position when Sony released their A1


----------



## beckstoy (Apr 25, 2021)

I absolutely LOVE my R5/RF equipment, but would be interested in adding an R3 body if shooter eye tracking AF was a reality. I'm so used to using the points, joystick combo, and using my eye to move focus points around within the viewfinder That would be absolutely amazing! The R5 is great, and I love the AF, but while looking through the viewfinder, a good eye tracking ability would be amazing.
"...Dear Santa Canon..."


----------



## entoman (Apr 25, 2021)

Berowne said:


> Quad-Pixel is what I would believe, high Megapixel not. The R3 looks more like a Sport-Camera.


It would be *nice* to have 50MP, but I'd hope that Canon's top priority would be high ISO performance and high DR.

Canon say it's got a Digic X processor and can shoot at 30fps with AF tracking. So my guess is that the sensor will be no more than 30MP.

I'd also guess that the rumoured "resolution trick", is a firmware process that allows a quad-pixel sensor to quadruple resolution without involving pixel-shift. Otherwise surely they would simply have called it pixel-shift.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 25, 2021)

Berowne said:


> Quad-Pixel is what I would believe, high Megapixel not. The R3 looks more like a Sport-Camera.


And this?


----------



## navastronia (Apr 25, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> And this?
> 
> View attachment 197208



For the record, when dpreview wrote about the 1Ds in 2002, they said:

"The EOS-1Ds features a full-frame 11 megapixel CMOS sensor. The sensor makes this camera the first Canon EF mount digital SLR without any field of view crop . . . Despite the increase in resolution compared to the EOS-D60, the EOS-1Ds sensor has a larger pixel pitch because of its larger effective imaging area,"

This is another way of saying that the 1Ds became a higher resolution camera (capable of shooting landscapes, etc, with its 11 MP) more out of the natural evolution up to full-frame digital sensor than because they intentionally made a "high megapixel model" with an integrated vertical grip.









Canon EOS-1Ds Review


The EOS-1Ds is Canon's newest professional SLR. Based on the EOS-1D body the EOS-1Ds raises resolution to 11 megapixels, uses a CMOS sensor (just like the EOS-D30 and D60) and is the first Canon digital SLR with a sensor which captures a full 35 mm frame.




www.dpreview.com


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 25, 2021)

navastronia said:


> For the record, when dpreview wrote about the 1Ds in 2002, they said:
> 
> "The EOS-1Ds features a full-frame 11 megapixel CMOS sensor. The sensor makes this camera the first Canon EF mount digital SLR without any field of view crop . . . Despite the increase in resolution compared to the EOS-D60, the EOS-1Ds sensor has a larger pixel pitch because of its larger effective imaging area,"
> 
> ...


I know, that was my point. Cameras that 'look like that' are not necessarily _"a Sport-Camera"_.


----------



## navastronia (Apr 25, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> I know, that was my point. Cameras that 'look like that' are not necessarily _"a Sport-Camera"_.



Oh, my bad. We're on the same page.


----------



## John Wilde (Apr 25, 2021)

dolina said:


> The R3 allows Canon to side step the issue of cannibalizing 1-Series SLR body sales.


Perhaps current 1-Series DSLR owners will buy an R3 as a second body, to dabble in mirrorless.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 25, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> Perhaps current 1-Series DSLR owners will buy an R3 as a second body, to dabble in mirrorless.


That is exactly my intention. I was going to get an R5 but couldn't bring myself to actually do it, now that R3 is out as a teaser I'm happy to at least wait and see what it actually turns out to be. But for me ergonomics, familiar button placement, battery cross compatibility and innumerable small details make enough of a difference.

The R5 is a superb camera, but it isn't a 1 series and has never tried to be.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 25, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> Perhaps current 1-Series DSLR owners will buy an R3 as a second body, to dabble in mirrorless.


I bought an EOS R to dabble. Well, actually I bought an M, then an M2 and an M6 first. I’ll be getting the R3.


----------



## slclick (Apr 26, 2021)

DBounce said:


> I primarily shoot video. Hence, *my* disappointment.


Gee, imagine all the folks who don't shoot video and their dearth of great bodies for the past xx years.


----------



## David - Sydney (Apr 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Two things.
> 1) 1Dx II has different card slots with 1 CFast and 1 CFX.
> 2) Headlining 30 FPS but having one card slot would be bogus.
> If anything I would expect R1 to have 1 CF Express and 1 next-level card like a CFX Type C or something.


I can't imagine CFe type C being used... See the dimensions of the card!! I don't think that there are any available in the marketplace
CFe type B has availability and still handles 2GB/s wheras the A1 uses CFe type A and "only" handles 1GB/s max. Tricky for Sony fans to find CFeA cards ie only from Sony I think 


Form
FactorCFexpress
versionDimensions
(millimeters)PCIe
LanesA2.020 x 28 x 2.8mm1B1.038.5 x 29.8 x 3.8mm2C2.054 x 74 x 4.8mm4


----------



## David - Sydney (Apr 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Replace JPEG with Compressed RAW and you might be on to something.
> It is best to shoot JPEG + RAW and use the RAW if editing is required.


I think that cRaw on the R5 is a great option but still 45mp. Clearly that resolution is not needed for sports pros with wifi back to base even if the file size is half Raw file sizes. Downsampled 45mp to 20mp HEIF (not jpg) on the fly @30fps could be what Canon is referring to.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 26, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> I can't imagine CFe type C being used... See the dimensions of the card!! I don't think that there are any available in the marketplace
> CFe type B has more options and still handles 2GB/s wheras the A1 uses CFe type A and "only" handles 1GB/s max.
> 
> 
> ...


LOL.
That is huge.
I read up on Type A and I have no idea why Sony chose it over SD Express.
I can't see how Sony does not have the ability to make SD Express readers and media.
It seems like it would be easier for Sony to make SD Express catch on easier than CFExpress Type A


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 26, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> I think that cRaw on the R5 is a great option but still 45mp. Clearly that resolution is not needed for sports pros with wifi back to base even if the file size is half Raw file sizes. Downsampled 45mp to 20mp HEIF (not jpg) on the fly @30fps could be what Canon is referring to.


HEIF is very size efficient but pretty slow to generate.
30 FPS HEIF would be a game-changer but even 20 would be very impressive.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> And this?
> 
> View attachment 197208


I am sure that either R3 or R1 will be a high-resolution camera.
There would be no reason to make them too much alike.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 26, 2021)

I


EOS 4 Life said:


> I am sure that either R3 or R1 will be a high-resolution camera.
> There would be no reason to make them too much alike.


 I tend to agree, and I’d think the R1 will be lower resolution than the R3 which suits me! I’m sure the R1 will have some high value features like a global shutter and/or quad pixel AF, but I can easily live without them.


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 26, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> I think that cRaw on the R5 is a great option but still 45mp. Clearly that resolution is not needed for sports pros with wifi back to base even if the file size is half Raw file sizes. Downsampled 45mp to 20mp HEIF (not jpg) on the fly @30fps could be what Canon is referring to.


With high speed 5G connectivity available at most all sports venue now, I don't think that will be a problem. As an example, Verizon mmWave upload speeds in the US are running at around 200mbs. The bandwith can handle even faster speeds. I expect this to see 5G add-ons available for the R3 and possibly built-in on the R1. I think the R3 will be at least 45mp, if not more.


----------



## David - Sydney (Apr 26, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> With high speed 5G connectivity available at most all sports venue now, I don't think that will be a problem. As an example, Verizon mmWave upload speeds in the US are running at around 200mbs. The bandwith can handle even faster speeds. I expect this to see 5G add-ons available for the R3 and possibly built-in on the R1. I think the R3 will be at least 45mp, if not more.


5G can be very fast back to the edge server but it isn't clear what the point-to-point sustained throughput would be. Be interesting to see how it is implemented though. Adding a sim card slot is relatively simple. You then have telco coverage quality in each country/ location. Would they use FTP to transmit? Not sure if lightroom or other editing software handle a 5G stream within tethering.


----------



## TravelerNick (Apr 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I read up on Type A and I have no idea why Sony chose it over SD Express.



If you want the cynical answer. Sony is the only manufacturer of Type A cards. If they don't use it it's death is almost 100% assured.


----------



## TravelerNick (Apr 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> I
> I tend to agree, and I’d think the R1 will be lower resolution than the R3 which suits me! I’m sure the R1 will have some high value features like a global shutter and/or quad pixel AF, but I can easily live without them.



I'd be highly surprised if a global shutter doesn't go first into a camera with high end video features. Today that means at least 8k. 8k leads us to at least 45 for the pixel count.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 26, 2021)

TravelerNick said:


> I'd be highly surprised if a global shutter doesn't go first into a camera with high end video features. Today that means at least 8k. 8k leads us to at least 45 for the pixel count.


The C700 GS has been available for some time....

But even if you just mean a video centric MILC requires 45mp I disagree, look at the Sony A7S III.


----------



## David - Sydney (Apr 26, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> LOL.
> That is huge.
> I read up on Type A and I have no idea why Sony chose it over SD Express.
> I can't see how Sony does not have the ability to make SD Express readers and media.
> It seems like it would be easier for Sony to make SD Express catch on easier than CFExpress Type A


"Phison ships the new PCIe SD Express card SD 7.0 in March, 2021. The card will come in 256GB and 512GB capacities. SD Express cards can achieve speeds of up to 870MB/s with PCIe Gen3x1 supporting content applications and data generated by highly demanding system architectures. Learn more at www.phison.com"
whereas Sony could actually make CFe type A cards and get them into the A1 (remember the memory stick?). Note that 160GB is their largest capacity and type A cards are roughly twice the cost per GB as type B cards (Sony tax  )

Sony having dual CFeA slots that are backward compatible with USH-II SD cards is a good idea. The only real restriction is the 1GB/s throughput for type A vs type B. We aren't really sure what the full 8k raw sustained bandwidth is as slower type B cards aren't on the Canon approved list.

CFe type A cards weren't available for the R5 when released or perhaps Canon didn't want to be beholden to Sony's rollout further impacting R5 sales. The R5 HW design would have been locked in well before implementation and CFeA cards were only defined in 1Q2019


----------



## TravelerNick (Apr 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> The C700 GS has been available for some time....
> 
> But even if you just mean a video centric MILC requires 45mp I disagree, look at the Sony A7S III.



The Sony doesn't have a global shutter does it? It's also very much yesterday. Or at best today. Putting out a high end camera with a global shutter today with only 4K support would be a strange choice.


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## pape2 (Apr 26, 2021)

Dunno putting 2 or 3 global sensor over eachothers sounds complexity they want try first with 20mpixel sensor. Sounds insanity try it first with bigger.
Without stacking peoples would complain why R5 got better high iso than R1.


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## dolina (Apr 26, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> Perhaps current 1-Series DSLR owners will buy an R3 as a second body, to dabble in mirrorless.


Cannot discount people with too much money and time to buy more toys to waggle it around on the Facebook.


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## GMCPhotographics (Apr 26, 2021)

If the R5 in the UK is tipping £3.5K, the the R3 is going to tip around £5.5K. An R1 would probably be in the £8K psycho expensive bracket.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 26, 2021)

dolina said:


> Cannot discount people with too much money and time to buy more toys to waggle it around on the Facebook.


I am not so sure that non-professionals buy such large cameras.
Professional video shooters usually have multiple cameras but it would have to have a lot to offer over the C70.
(Internal RAW may be enough)
I find that sports and wildlife photographers tend to carry one big camera and maybe a smaller backup.
Lugging around multiple cameras can be problematic for them.
That does not mean it will not catch on.


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## JohnC (Apr 26, 2021)

dolina said:


> Cannot discount people with too much money and time to buy more toys to waggle it around on the Facebook.


You never know, they may be making up for the years of 60-80 hour weeks in which they were too busy earning it to dabble in a hobby like photography.


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## pape2 (Apr 26, 2021)

Sucks it still takes couple year to get some of R3 ,R1 tech to R6ii


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## st jack photography (Apr 26, 2021)

Chig said:


> Even better would be a round sensor 43mm in diameter so you can choose to crop : protrait, landscape , square or circular at the flick of a switch and you wouldn't need a vertical grip at , also camera could keep the chosen crop level automatically





Bonich said:


> RF lenses are not made to handle a 30x30 sensor.
> Tale off the cap ant take a look!


Oh my goodness I forgot all about that lol! Every time I look at one of my RF lenses it surprises me to see that. That weird rectangle/light shaper looks like something that just doesn't belong on a stills camera outside of an extension tube, lol.


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## st jack photography (Apr 26, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Random thought, since we're all still spitballing, but I'm wondering if the "focus using your eye" tech Canon is mentioning will also allow them to return to using normal eyecups? The EOS 3's eye position sensor was inside the viewfinder itself, and used normal removable eyecups. I desperately hope that the R3 also has user replaceable eyecups, because it drives me crazy that I can't swap the R5's eyepiece out. My weather covers work OK on the R5, but nothing near as nice as the replaceable ones on my 1DX2 and 5D3.


Yes, a removable eyecup! It has been a few years since I shot with an old 5dm3 and an angle finder, but that was the closest to modern-day waist-level that can be found, and now you cannot do it, I guess. I used to love to shoot that way, taking off the eyecup and attaching the expensive right-angle finder. I keep wanting a removable eyecup nowadays too, or a way to have a viewfinder that folds up on a 90-degree angle, or has a top-down view like the old waist-finders. The FUJI medium format has the flip-up and removable viewfinder, and I had a Canon m3 with the detachable viewfinder that flips up. I would love to see them come out with a body that had removable viewfinders.
Now that camera bodies no longer need that mirror box I would like to see some innovation on body design instead of a camera that just looks boringly like a smaller DSLR. I want to see a removable flat LCD panel ON TOP, not on the back. Why is this such a hard thing to design or do? *Why is the current body design, viewfinder, and form factor so locked in? *I see that huge viewfinder bump on mirrorless Canon's and* it makes no sense*. The RP is the only body without that huge annoying VF bump.


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## dolina (Apr 26, 2021)

JohnC said:


> You never know, they may be making up for the years of 60-80 hour weeks in which they were too busy earning it to dabble in a hobby like photography.


Possible but still... waggle waggle waggle and post on the Social Network.


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## scyrene (Apr 26, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> If the R5 in the UK is tipping £3.5K, the the R3 is going to tip around £5.5K. An R1 would probably be in the £8K psycho expensive bracket.



If you can direct me to a retailer selling the R5 for that little, I'd be most obliged!


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## scyrene (Apr 26, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> The two pieces of information I want are sensor resolution and availability date.



Great to see you back here!


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I am not so sure that non-professionals buy such large cameras.


I am not a professional photographer, and I own a 1-series body (and several other bodies, too). If the ‘barrier’ to non-professionals is size, why does Canon sell battery grips (even for Rebel/xxxD models)? If the barrier is cost, there are plenty of well-heeled hobby photographers out there (including me).


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 27, 2021)

pape2 said:


> Sucks it still takes couple year to get some of R3 ,R1 tech to R6ii


It took less than a year for R6 to get 1DX III tech.
Who knows when we will see R1.


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## pape2 (Apr 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It took less than a year for R6 to get 1DX III tech.
> Who knows when we will see R1.


i mean ugrade intervall used to be that 4 year


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## chik0240 (Apr 27, 2021)

ok I like cameras with built in vertical grip, but since they usually cost a few kidneys all I hope is they will make the R5 more user friendly priced


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 27, 2021)

chik0240 said:


> ok I like cameras with built in vertical grip, but since they usually cost a few kidneys all I hope is they will make the R5 more user friendly priced


Not as well as it is selling.


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## Chig (Apr 27, 2021)

st jack photography said:


> Oh my goodness I forgot all about that lol! Every time I look at one of my RF lenses it surprises me to see that. That weird rectangle/light shaper looks like something that just doesn't belong on a stills camera outside of an extension tube, lol.


Yep , I didn't realise that either but a round sensor of 27mm diameter would fit for aps-c


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2021)

Chig said:


> Yep , I didn't realise that either but a round sensor of 27mm diameter would fit for aps-c


Ever roll out cookie dough into a large circle, then cut out a bunch of round cookies? There’s a lot of dough left over, right?

The 300mm silicon wafers used to make image sensors are an expensive part of the cost of goods, and you can’t just gather the left-over material up and roll it out again to cut out more sensors.

In a mass-produced camera, a round sensor is Never. Going. To. Happen. Just let it go.


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## Berowne (Apr 27, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> And this?
> 
> View attachment 197208


... had 21 Mpx. Ok this is long ago!


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## privatebydesign (Apr 27, 2021)

Berowne said:


> ... had 21 Mpx. Ok this is long ago!


But there is an untapped demand for a higher megapixel sensor in a 1 series style and built body. None of us can even fathom a guess at that number, but the logic of an R3 and an R1 that share a body, or very close, but have very different feature sets makes sense to me.

Technology has moved a very long way from those days of being forced into a choice of fps or resolution, or even cost of a ff sensor size, we already have ff 5 series cameras shooting 45mp at 20fps for under $4,000.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> But there is an untapped demand for a higher megapixel sensor in a 1 series style and built body. None of us can even fathom a guess at that number,


I guess three. You, me, and Bryan.


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## SteveC (Apr 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I guess three. You, me, and Bryan.



At least 27 more as there is GoldWing who apparently needs a whole fleet of such cameras.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 27, 2021)

SteveC said:


> At least 27 more as there is GoldWing who apparently needs a whole fleet of such cameras.


And don’t forget Harry, his company will get at least 50....


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## john1970 (Apr 27, 2021)

And me! I am definitely would purchase a higher MP body with 1-series ergonomics and features. Personally I hope that the R3 is high resolution and 30 fps and the R1 is lower resolution with insane fps. Based on the rumored specifications of the C500S it is anticipated that Canon can move 8K at 60 fps from a 8K BSI stacked FF sensor. If correct, this suggests that Canon can move ~2.1 GP of data in a second. If one wants to move 30 fps that could mean each frame could be 70 MP.


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## SteveC (Apr 27, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> And don’t forget Harry, his company will get at least 50....


Since his company has 12 GP cameras mounted on flying saucers, I doubt he'd care about a camera with less than 1% of the resolution.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2021)

john1970 said:


> And me! I am definitely would purchase a higher MP body with 1-series ergonomics and features. Personally I hope that the R3 is high resolution and 30 fps and the R1 is lower resolution with insane fps. Based on the rumored specifications of the C500S it is anticipated that Canon can move 8K at 60 fps from a 8K BSI stacked FF sensor. If correct, this suggests that Canon can move ~2.1 GP of data in a second. If one wants to move 30 fps that could mean each frame could be 70 MP.


In theory. If Canon is ok putting the processing pipeline from what will likely be an >$20K camera into a body costing ~1/3 that. I’m not holding my breath on that one.


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## john1970 (Apr 28, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> In theory. If Canon is ok putting the processing pipeline from what will likely be an >$20K camera into a body costing ~1/3 that. I’m not holding my breath on that one.


I agree. My post was only to show what is theoretically possible. I would expect a resolution similar to the R5. Time will tell.


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## Stuart (Apr 29, 2021)

TAF said:


> Does ‘stacked’ imply a Foveon style sensor? Real question; I really don’t know.
> 
> I would find that quite interesting. Might prompt me to trade in the R5...


That's what i was thinking too - a “resolution trick”. Is that a clue.

Yet the Foveon was slow - so not the same technology. Has Canon cracked the speed issue with Foveon ?


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## Stuart (Apr 29, 2021)

Ed O. said:


> Not 20MP? Maybe it'll be 60MP ... 20MP per layer.


That's what i was thinking too - a “resolution trick”. Is that a clue.

The Foveon was slow - so not the same exact technology. Has Canon cracked the readout speed issue with the Foveon approach?
See their old patent - https://www.canonrumors.com/patent-canon-foveon-sensor/
And Sigma is also starting again - https://www.canonrumors.com/sigma-releases-an-official-update-about-their-foveon-x3-sensor-project/


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## Chig (Apr 29, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ever roll out cookie dough into a large circle, then cut out a bunch of round cookies? There’s a lot of dough left over, right?
> 
> The 300mm silicon wafers used to make image sensors are an expensive part of the cost of goods, and you can’t just gather the left-over material up and roll it out again to cut out more sensors.
> 
> In a mass-produced camera, a round sensor is Never. Going. To. Happen. Just let it go.


Well a 27mmx27mm square has 15% less area than a FF 24mmx36mm rectangle and silicon wafers only cost $30-60 per square inch , also if you cut them in a hexagon shape the size is even less.
Raw material is a very minor part of the cost of a camera sensor


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 29, 2021)

Chig said:


> Well a 27mmx27mm square has 15% less area than a FF 24mmx36mm rectangle and silicon wafers only cost $30-60 per square inch , also if you cut them in a hexagon shape the size is even less.
> Raw material is a very minor part of the cost of a camera sensor


it’s not just the raw silicon wafers, it’s also the cost of the lithography. Cost of goods is a very important factor on items with a low profit margin, which is the case for low end ILCs.

You’ll see pigs flying over snowbanks in hell before you see round sensors in ILCs, but hey – live the dream!


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## JohnC (Apr 29, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> it’s not just the raw silicon wafers, it’s also the cost of the lithography. Cost of goods is a very important factor on items with a low profit margin, which is the case for low end ILCs.
> 
> You’ll see pigs flying over snowbanks in hell before you see round sensors in ILCs, but hey – live the dream!


I agree, no way anyone will accept that much loss in processing for little to no gain. Takes far more surface area to yield the frame that is current used for 35mm.


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## Chig (Apr 30, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> it’s not just the raw silicon wafers, it’s also the cost of the lithography. Cost of goods is a very important factor on items with a low profit margin, which is the case for low end ILCs.
> 
> You’ll see pigs flying over snowbanks in hell before you see round sensors in ILCs, but hey – live the dream!


I never suggested this for a low end ILC (and Canon will never develop any more new budget cameras) . This would be for a high end camera such as the rumoured R7 which I suspect will be priced similarly to the R6.
No need to be sarcastic either just because someone has different ideas to you


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## Chig (Apr 30, 2021)

Chig said:


> I never suggested this for a low end ILC (and Canon will never develop any more new budget cameras) . This would be for a high end camera such as the rumoured R7 which I suspect will be priced similarly to the R6.
> No need to be sarcastic either just because someone has different ideas to you


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## Joules (Apr 30, 2021)

Chig said:


> I never suggested this for a low end ILC (and Canon will never develop any more new budget cameras) . This would be for a high end camera such as the rumoured R7 which I suspect will be priced similarly to the R6.
> No need to be sarcastic either just because someone has different ideas to you


Canon will absolutely produce more budget cameras. The RP was just an initial step to lower the cost of entry to FF, and there's still ample room for things to be crippled on that body to push cost lower. Especially once they upgrade their platform to their current or next generation of technology that can share components with the rest of the R lineup. 

I also don't think we'll see round sensors though. With the current situation of chip and wafer costs waste is of course an even more important topic, but even under normal circumstances Canon is a Japanese company. I would not be surprised to learn they follow some of the guidance in avoiding waste from lean management.

And with how many actually useful things (RAW histogram, zebras in stills, focus peaking on DSLR, intervalometer in every body, auto exposure linked to spot AF in every body,...) Canon withholds from bodies just because they aren't useful to especially many people, it seems very unlikely that they would add something so niche when it comes with actual costs for each and every body they make, unlike the many software aspects I listed.


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## mariuspavel (Apr 30, 2021)

I am curious how will work this eye focus. For sports and fast-moving objects will be great addition, but for weddings R5c will rule


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## Chig (Apr 30, 2021)

Joules said:


> Canon will absolutely produce more budget cameras. The RP was just an initial step to lower the cost of entry to FF, and there's still ample room for things to be crippled on that body to push cost lower. Especially once they upgrade their platform to their current or next generation of technology that can share components with the rest of the R lineup.
> 
> I also don't think we'll see round sensors though. With the current situation of chip and wafer costs waste is of course an even more important topic, but even under normal circumstances Canon is a Japanese company. I would not be surprised to learn they follow some of the guidance in avoiding waste from lean management.
> 
> And with how many actually useful things (RAW histogram, zebras in stills, focus peaking on DSLR, intervalometer in every body, auto exposure linked to spot AF in every body,...) Canon withholds from bodies just because they aren't useful to especially many people, it seems very unlikely that they would add something so niche when it comes with actual costs for each and every body they make, unlike the many software aspects I listed.


The RP is an excellent camera and good value for money but hardly entry level at $1300-1500 with a kit lens .
Entry level is something like the the Rebel SL2 with kit lens at $650 and Canon won't be making any new ones like this .
Cameras like the Monocular Powershot Zoom which pair up with a smartphone have a great future though and I suspect Canon will make a whole range of models like this


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## JohnC (May 1, 2021)

Chig said:


> The RP is an excellent camera and good value for money but hardly entry level at $1300-1500 with a kit lens .
> Entry level is something like the the Rebel SL2 with kit lens at $650 and Canon won't be making any new ones like this .
> Cameras like the Monocular Powershot Zoom which pair up with a smartphone have a great future though and I suspect Canon will make a whole range of models like this


True entry level interchangeable lens has become the M series (for Canon anyway). No logical reason to continue two different body types in the aps-c range. The sensor in the 90d and m62 essentially bridges the gap. Very capable system. You want higher end tech results? Jump to full gram and the RF mount.


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## Chig (May 1, 2021)

JohnC said:


> I agree, no way anyone will accept that much loss in processing for little to no gain. Takes far more surface area to yield the frame that is current used for 35mm.


27x27mm square is 729mm area
Full frame 24x36mm is 864mm area
Cost of silicon wafer is between $30 and $60 per square inch (625mm) so not a big cost I would think


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## JohnC (May 1, 2021)

Chig said:


> 27x27mm square is 729mm area
> Full frame 24x38mm is 864mm area
> Cost of silicon wafer is between $30 and $60 per square inch (625mm) so not a big cost I would think


I think you had a mistype of 38vs 36 but the area is correct. The thing is a 27mm round sensor will not let you get a 24x36 frame out of it (I don’t think...I’d have to calculate it but it would have to be something greater than 36 mm in diameter. I agree if you were wanting a 27mm square but that isn’t the point of a Roy d sensor is it? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your thought.
The thing is that regardless of what shape you want to use if the circle, the circle cut itself wastes a lot of material in addition to other design costs in the body itself. Even at 30 per square once that adds up quickly when you are talking millions of sensors.


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## Chig (May 1, 2021)

JohnC said:


> I think you had a mistype of 38vs 36 but the area is correct. The thing is a 27mm round sensor will not let you get a 24x36 frame out of it (I don’t think...I’d have to calculate it but it would have to be something greater than 36 mm in diameter. I agree if you were wanting a 27mm square but that isn’t the point of a Roy d sensor is it? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your thought.
> The thing is that regardless of what shape you want to use if the circle, the circle cut itself wastes a lot of material in addition to other design costs in the body itself. Even at 30 per square once that adds up quickly when you are talking millions of sensors.


I was thinking of a round sensor for aps-c not ff


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## JohnC (May 1, 2021)

Chig said:


> I was thinking of a round sensor for aps-c not ff


Okay understood, but the math is the same regardless of scale. It would not be an efficient use of resources to make a round sensor....so the potential benefit would have to outweigh the additional cost of doing it. That being said, what does a round sensor get you that is over and above a rectangle? In what way does the additional cost of manufacturing become justified? Why would people buy that vs a rectangle at higher cost?


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## Chig (May 1, 2021)

JohnC said:


> Okay understood, but the math is the same regardless of scale. It would not be an efficient use of resources to make a round sensor....so the potential benefit would have to outweigh the additional cost of doing it. That being said, what does a round sensor get you that is over and above a rectangle? In what way does the additional cost of manufacturing become justified? Why would people buy that vs a rectangle at higher cost?


I was thinking of having the round sensor so that you could choose portrait or landscape or square crop by switching between them with a button or dial rather than moving the camera or needing a vertical grip and the camera could keep the chosen crop level at all times too


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## JohnC (May 1, 2021)

Chig said:


> I was thinking of having the round sensor so that you could choose portrait or landscape or square crop by switching between them with a button or dial rather than moving the camera or needing a vertical grip and the camera could keep the chosen crop level at all times too


Well that would certainly work for that and be pretty cool. If I’m on the other side of the table though I’m asking how many people would pay x markup just to have that ability without rotating the camera. That number multiplied by the margin per unit, divided by 2...is roughly how much you can afford to spend per camera to accomplish it. There are other costs involved as well but that gives you a base. 
My SUSPICION is that the number of willing buyers would rather rotate the camera vs paying more.


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## neuroanatomist (May 1, 2021)

Chig said:


> 27x27mm square is 729mm area
> Full frame 24x36mm is 864mm area
> Cost of silicon wafer is between $30 and $60 per square inch (625mm) so not a big cost I would think


The 7- series bodies were overall better spec than the 6-series bodies – better AF, frame rate, metering, durability. Why are 6-series bodies so much more expensive? Same question comparing old 1D-series (APS-H) with 1Ds-series, where the bodies were very similar.

Based on your numbers, a FF sensor has about $50 more silicon than APS-C. That’s a clue that the numbers don’t tell the whole story. As I stated earlier, minimally you’ve got to consider lithography costs and QC. There are randomly distributed artifacts in every finished wafer. With APS-C, 3-4 lost sensors is <2% loss, with FF 3-4 lost sensors is >10% loss. But those factors pale in comparison to market size effects.

Consider it from the other side – why would I buy a camera with a sensor of FF area that only shoots APS-C images.

There are lens issues, too – internal baffles, petal hoods. But I bet fisheye lens owners would love a round sensor. Oh, wait – those have petal hoods, too.


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## pape2 (May 1, 2021)

I believe there isnt round sensor just becouse it slows frame rate.
Camera makers always struggling to have same or better frame rate than competitor.
Would think round sensor is cheaper than extra grip.
Would be great to have as big sensor as can fit to mount for extreme BIFs.
You dont need use distorted edges ,can crop them away.
If canon is counting pennyes . I bet someone not so clever economically like nikon does it .
Could put edges of sensor to different reading circuits so can get both options ,old square and big circle.


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## GMCPhotographics (May 2, 2021)

scyrene said:


> If you can direct me to a retailer selling the R5 for that little, I'd be most obliged!







__





HDEW CAMERAS


Online Retailer of photography equipment & electronics. Including DSLR cameras, lenses, laptops, tablets, batteries, filters. From Canon Olympus Sigma Apple Samsung LaCie Sandisk & Adata.




www.hdewcameras.co.uk


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## TAF (May 3, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I am not a professional photographer, and I own a 1-series body (and several other bodies, too). If the ‘barrier’ to non-professionals is size, why does Canon sell battery grips (even for Rebel/xxxD models)? If the barrier is cost, there are plenty of well-heeled hobby photographers out there (including me).



I would say the barrier is hand size. I'll never buy a 1-series camera, since my hands are not that large.

The 5D3 was just about perfect; the R5 is a little sharp edged for me, but I guess it will have to do.

How about a left handed grip, for the benefit of the sinister amongst us?


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## SteveC (May 3, 2021)

TAF said:


> I would say the barrier is hand size. I'll never buy a 1-series camera, since my hands are not that large.
> 
> The 5D3 was just about perfect; the R5 is a little sharp edged for me, but I guess it will have to do.
> 
> How about a left handed grip, for the benefit of the sinister amongst us?


And with mirrorless, there's certainly no reason the viewfinder has to be directly above the lens, either...unless it makes sense ergonomically. 

I suspect the current placement does make some sense ergonomically, at least for right handed folks, but at the price of moving the camera _lens_ to follow suit. But now at least from an engineering standpoint they could move the thing around wherever makes sense and even make models for people who are left eye dominant but right handed (and vice versa!), though such might be too thin a market to be anything other than prohibitively expensive.


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## neuroanatomist (May 3, 2021)

Ned Flanders?


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## Peter Bergh (May 4, 2021)

TAF said:


> ... How about a left handed grip, for the benefit of the sinister amongst us?


I am sinister and right-handed! :-}


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