# 60D or wait?



## Eugene (Feb 11, 2012)

I have been using the 450D since it's been released and though it was time for an upgrade, problem is, I don't know if I should wait for the 70D or get the 60D now. 
I assume the 70D will have a Digic 5 processor, = to 75% better noise performance and better videos if I'm not mistaken.
Am I in a hurry for it? Well, no, not really. Although I do have some important events coming in a few weeks, I should be able to deal with them with the 450D. What I do have, is a trip in October, this is the trip in which I desire to have an upgraded camera rather than my 450D.


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## brianleighty (Feb 11, 2012)

I really like the articulating screen on the T3i as I've been using that recently for video. If you're not shooting video though the 60D is kind of a wash in my opinion. I currently have a 50D and am quite happy with it. The 60D is really a step in the wrong direction. I'm hoping the 70D returns the autofocus adjustment. If not I'm looking at getting a full frame body then. So my opinion would be to wait. I'd say there's a good possibility of the 70D getting released before or around October and the T4i should be coming out even before that I would think. If you have money burning a hole in your wallet you can always invest in glass.


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## Eugene (Feb 11, 2012)

The articulating screen would still be useful for photography in my opinion. There were a few situations where I had to kneel very uncomfortably.
All I really hope for the 70D to be is a better performer in ISO, I don't REALLY care about a magnesium alloy body, but I wouldn't mind having one.
Having said that, is there a chance in auto-focusing system upgrade? Maybe more than 9 AF points? Would be useful for my sport events.
The 60D released for sale sometime during September in 2010, if I'm correct.
I also just remembered I have an event I have to go to during the end of March-Start of April and an event during the end of June-Beginning of July where it would be in a very low light environment, so the ISO improvements would be really important.
I really do want to upgrade to a XxD line instead of XXXD line due to the more "durable" and "bigger" sized body, also due to the cross type af system (I do sport events sometimes, wouldn't mind having it)


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## Beautor (Feb 11, 2012)

My biggest suggestion is that you don't upgrade your camera just before an event. Unless you only use the fully automatic mode, you want to give yourself at least a month of regular shooting to get used to the feel and function of your new camera. You really don't want to be fumbling to change settings when that perfect shot comes along. I bought my wife a 60D a few months ago as an upgrade from her T1i, and it took her a couple of weeks before changing settings became natural and smooth. 

As for which camera you pick, There's no firm release, or even rumours about the 70D, so we really have no idea what it will be. I'd suggest that if you're not in a hurry just wait and see if there's any great deals on a 60D. If you find one snap it up, and if not maybe the 70D will be announced in the mean time.


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## thejoyofsobe (Feb 11, 2012)

if it were me i'd wait until the Rebel t4i is announced. of course it's going to have Digic 5 and thus by default the best APS-C noise performance Canon offers. but what you should pay attention to is whether the Rebel t4i gets a new sensor or is still keeping alive the 7D1's sensor as I think the t4i and 70D will have the same sensor. at that point i would be able to make a more informed decision between high ISO performance/new features of the t4i, the ergonomics and speed of the 60D or waiting for the best of both worlds with the 70D.

unless the 7D and 60D lines merge again just one model version after they both split off from the 50D, I would not expect the 70D to have better AF than the 60D. however it's important to note that the 60D's 9 point AF is significantly better than the Rebels' 9 point AF because it has 8 more cross-type points.


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## elflord (Feb 11, 2012)

Eugene said:


> I have been using the 450D since it's been released and though it was time for an upgrade, problem is, I don't know if I should wait for the 70D or get the 60D now.
> I assume the 70D will have a Digic 5 processor, = to 75% better noise performance and better videos if I'm not mistaken.
> Am I in a hurry for it? Well, no, not really. Although I do have some important events coming in a few weeks, I should be able to deal with them with the 450D. What I do have, is a trip in October, this is the trip in which I desire to have an upgraded camera rather than my 450D.



Noise performance has hardly changed at all in the last several years, take a look at DXO mark results. You'll get a small fraction of a stop, not something you'll notice in everyday shooting. I'd go with the 60D unless there is a particular feature you're holding out for that is missing on the 60D.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 11, 2012)

Eugene, I've got a 60D an have been shooting 50k+ pictures over the last year, so here's my 2 cents:

* concerning "wait" see the eos body timeline at http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/rumours.html ... I think they will replace the 7D first and then let the features trickle down

* articulating screen: when I bought the body I thought that this would be really useless for photos since pro bodies don't have it. I have been wrong, it really is useful - while I'm not shy to lie flat in the mud to get a good picture, you can get good *overhead* shots w/ the screen tilted down. And it's a nice protection when the lcd is turned inwards.

* same goes for the "plastic" body - it's actually quite solid, I have been dropping more than one time from shoulder height. What is likely to break is your non-L lens, not the body.

* imho, the 60D has no af because it does not really auto focus. It is a focus helper if the object you want to shoot happens to be near one of the 9 sensor fields. The servo af is extremely outdated compared to 7D/1D.

* the advantage of the 60D is that it is using balanced/proven technologiy, has good ergonomics and "just works". ISO noise is non-existant up to 200/400htp, and ok up to 800. I am shooting raw, and I really don't think a faster DIGIC would change the noise level significantly, using Lightroom4 or another sensor does this.

* last not least: the very most important advantage is that magic lantern works on 60D, you won't get this for the 70D when it's released.


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## Eugene (Feb 12, 2012)

Well, there is not specific feature that I find myself missing out on when looking at reviews of the 60D. I just thought perhaps I'd like the latest and greatest upgrade..
I went to look at my local retailers and managed to bargain my way to $932.
I've read over and over again at how Digic 5 will have 75% noise performance, so is this not true?
I suppose the 650D would be announced on March the first, according to the recent rumors.

I don't plan to use magic lantern before I play with it for quite some time.

The servo af is outdated? Really? Is it also outdated on the 600D?


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 12, 2012)

Eugene said:


> Well, there is not specific feature that I find myself missing out on when looking at reviews of the 60D.
> 
> The servo af is outdated? Really? Is it also outdated on the 600D?



One thing to keep in mind - generally, lenses matter more than body. If you're shooting primarily landscapes from a tripod, or other situations where you're usually at f/8, it might not matter as much - kit lenses like the 18-55mm and 18-135mm are actually decent when stopped down. But if you need to shoot wide open, getting a faster lens with better IQ will probably have a much bigger positive impact on your images. 

Having said that, if you do have good lenses (f/2.8 zooms, faster primes), there's one feature missing from the 60D which I'll never buy a camera without - autofocus microadjust (AFMA). That allows you to calibrate specific lenses to the AF system in your camera. With slower lenses, the DoF is deep enough to mask focus errors, but I can't imaging shooting at f/1.2 to f/2.8 without a properly calibrated lens. Without AMFA, the only way to get that done is to send lenses and body to Canon. 

RE the AI Servo AF, outdated isn't the right word, obviously, as the 60D is newer than the 7D or 1DIV. But those two higher-end cameras have better tracking algorithms and capabilities, as well as more densely-packed AF points to give those better algorithms more data to accurately predict subject motion, compared to the 60D.


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## shermanstank (Feb 12, 2012)

Eugene said:


> I do have, is a trip in October, this is the trip in which I desire to have an upgraded camera rather than my 450D.



My best suggestion is to wait for now. You could ALWAYS RENT gear for those special trips/occasions. There will be tons of announcements throughout this year, which will help you become a more informed consumer prior to making purchases.

Cheers!

Sherwin


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## Eugene (Feb 12, 2012)

I suppose only the 7D and higher class has autofocus microadjust?
So this basically controls the DOF.....? Sorry, not familiar with this function.

Where I live, I can't quite find a place for renting equipment... Darn it


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## shermanstank (Feb 12, 2012)

Eugene said:


> Where I live, I can't quite find a place for renting equipment... Darn it


http://www.adoramarentals.com/ ----- ADORAMA, which is based from NYC has an excellent rental department.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 12, 2012)

Eugene said:


> I suppose only the 7D and higher class has autofocus microadjust?
> So this basically controls the DOF.....? Sorry, not familiar with this function.



The 50D has it, but Canon omitted it from the 60D, so other than the 50D, only recent single-digit bodies have it.

Doesn't control DoF, it allows a user to correct for small errors of front- or back-focusing. Basically, lenses and bodies are manufactured within certain tolerances, so if your body is at one end of the range and your lens is at the same end, no problem, but if your body and lens are at opposite ends, you'll have AF errors - your focus will consistently be either behind or in front of where you want it to be. AFMA will have the greatest benefit for lenses with fast apertures (f/2.8 and wider), because the thin depth of field at wide apertures makes even small focus errors more evident.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 12, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> AFMA will have the greatest benefit for lenses with fast apertures (f/2.8 and wider), because the thin depth of field at wide apertures makes even small focus errors more evident.



* micro adjust: It is correct, that Canon unfortunately left this feature out for marketing reasons (to widen the gap between 60D and 7D) and I would like to have it, too. Having said that, it really only matters for very large apertures and even many pros haven't even heard of microadjust. It matters if your lens and body are unfortuneate enough to suffer from production variances, because of course the Canon parts are made to fit without further adjustment. On my 2.8 macro and 1.8 prime the focus is where it is supposed to be - if the af does the job once in a while 

* af: the 60D is newer than 7D, but they just copied the af system from older bodies - so outdated actually is the right word... but as I wrote if you don't use servo af and have the time to bring the part you want to focus on a sensor field and then re-compose the scene, it works just fine. 

* noise: a newer processor might lower nose levels on *video* if you're shooting videos in low light conditions. But if you plan to do that, you should really get a ff 5d2. For ok light conditions, the Canon 18mp sensor is sufficient. For *pictures* noise levels, the digic doesn't matter at all afaik - the raw file is just a copy of the sensor data. What does matter is postprocessing with picture-adaptive denoising (noise ninja, lightroom 4).

* magic lantern: having added the latest additions for photo-shooting, this is an absolute killer feature, trust me, you'll never want a camera (read: Nikon) without it again. For video, it is a must-have. But of course if you're struggling with basic camera controls at first, it is advanced.


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## Eugene (Feb 12, 2012)

Sounds like buying the 60D right now wouldn't be much of a lost....!
So, wait, the new Digic 5 would barely make a difference for photography purposes?


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 12, 2012)

Eugene said:


> So, wait, the new Digic 5 would barely make a difference for photography purposes?



Big difference for shooting JPGs right out of the camera, not much difference if shooting RAW.


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## Tijn (Feb 12, 2012)

Digic 5 means greater processing power. That applies to burst rate and stuff, and video capabilities, noise reduction... With bigger (higher resolution, higher ISO) images, more processing power is needed.

Sensor upgrades are what determine resulution (the amount of megapixels) and noise performance (how much noise at certain ISO levels, how much maximum ISO). Note though that in a 70D, it's highly unlikely that there will not be a sensor upgrade. The 550D and 600D, as well as the 60D, as well as the 7D, _all share the exact same sensor_. It's getting old and they will have to get a better sensor in the next model. It will have better noise performance than the previous model, period. However, _how much_ better is still uncertain. 

Question is, do you need the extra improvement enough to want to remain waiting without any upgrade, or is the 60D's ISO performance enough of an upgrade for you to want to buy it now? (For me, coming from a 350D, it was easy: I went and bought the 60D. Massive upgrade, well worth it.)


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## marekjoz (Feb 12, 2012)

Eugene, I'd suggest you to upgrade your lens first. You should get more from grabbing 17-40, 24-105 or EFS 17-55 what people suggest you than upgrading body now. If you plan to upgrade your lens AND body as well, maybe it's better to get even better lens, than you consider. Take a look at this: Pro DSLR + Cheapo Lens vs "Cheapo" DSLR + Pro Lens


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## Eugene (Feb 12, 2012)

Sadly, most of the time I do shoot on JPEG on my 450D due to the slow processing of both JPEG and Raw files, and I sometimes just feel too lazy to edit my shots.
So having said that, JPEG on a digic 5 results into massive ISO performance, correct?
Tijin, do you find the upgrade satisfying? When did you upgrade?
Do you guys think the new sensor would be extremely superior to the ones found on the 7D, 60D, 600D, etc?
Well, it's never a bad thing to get "extra improvements"!

Marekjoz, I've watched that and plenty of digitalrev tv a ridiculous amount of times during this month! But I really do think that getting a new body + a new maybe L lens would be more efficient..... + WEATHER SEALING ON BODY!!!!!! I'm not quite sure whether better lenses on my 450D would really make it comparable to a new 60D (or 70D) with my current lenses........


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## Marsu42 (Feb 14, 2012)

Eugene said:


> + WEATHER SEALING ON BODY!!!!!!



afaik, weather-sealing is relative - you cannot shot an 1DX underwater. Reviews say the 60D has better sealing than cheaper eos bodies, but of course Canon wouldn't promote this to sell their 7D bodies. I can say that shooting for short periods in light rain never did my 60D any harm.



neuroanatomist said:


> Eugene said:
> 
> 
> > So, wait, the new Digic 5 would barely make a difference for photography purposes?
> ...



... and I personally would not think of shooting jpg execpt on a very long trip w/o laptop access ... the dynamic headroom raw gives you is the thing I want from a dslr.

Concerning nose, the 60D sensor is noise-less on iso-200, very good -400, ok-800. Looking at my Lightroom statistics, this is nearly always the case when shooting outdoors with an average 4-5.6 lens - as long as you don't to shoot moving targets @1/8000 - then get a ff body.


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## D.Sim (Feb 15, 2012)

Eugene said:


> So having said that, JPEG on a digic 5 results into massive ISO performance, correct?



Not at all... it'll affect how the images are processed at a faster rate, but noise quality... won't really be affected. And as Neuro said, when shooting RAW... it'll be negligible..

I second the suggestion to upgrade your glass - it'll help the AF as well if you can get the 2.8 trinity


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## Tijn (Feb 15, 2012)

Eugene said:


> Tijin, do you find the upgrade satisfying? When did you upgrade?


Very satisfying. Gave me the video capability I wanted, nice swivel screen for when I want to do a scary self portrait, max ISO been pushed up 2 stops or so (not counting 12800). Resolution also changed a lot, I'm actually not afraid to crop now (went from 8Mpx to 18Mpx). The body itself feels nicer, too. I'd always love better noise performance, but I think I'll just wait a year or two and then go fullframe with a 5d mk3.



> Do you guys think the new sensor would be extremely superior to the ones found on the 7D, 60D, 600D, etc?


I think it will be a significant upgrade. As in, at least 1 stop of noise performance boost (which is a lot). But for me, getting an upgrade *now* was much more important than waiting for a sensor upgrade (and spending more money on a crop camera in the process).


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## SJP (Feb 15, 2012)

I upgraded from a 450 to 60D last summer, and haven't looked back!

Yes, glass quality is the overriding factor. Yes, the 60D will be updated sometime. Yes, the 60D doesn't have a Mg-Alloy and (totally) weather-sealed body. It was however a hugely satisfying upgrade.

The 60D's features which make the photography I desire achievable are worth the upgrade, and are something a glass-upgrade wouldn't have provided. 

For me, the killer-features are the articulated screen, much-improved bracketing control, wireless-flash control, the top-mounted LCD screen, digital-level, far superior high-iso performance, higher-speed (FPS) even when shooting RAW, higher pixel-count (more confidence when cropping) and the Custom scene-mode (I just wish it had three rather than just one!). Even the (user-configurable) scene-modes are worthy of note.

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that glass is the key to sharp shots, you need to get the shot first and the 60D's features are far superior to those of the 450D and go a long way to ensuring you get that shot in the first place.

Any camera will be updated at some time, and whilst the 60D's successor may be on the horizon it's by no means imminent. I'd say go for the upgrade and reap the rewards!


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## Marsu42 (Feb 15, 2012)

SJP said:


> I upgraded from a 450 to 60D last summer, and haven't looked back!



It's nice to hear other people are happy with the 60D, too, because I really like my camera  ... having said this, I just saw the 7D prices have dropped significantly. So if you don't need magic lantern (doh!) and the movable back screen you can get a body that fits larger hands, better weather sealing and a far, far superior af.


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## mitchell3417 (Feb 16, 2012)

If you could theoretically afford a 70d new, then you can certainly afford a used 7d right now. They aren't much more expensive and it meets your requirements of great AF and it was 19 wonderful crosstype points. Also IQ is great and honestly you won't see a huge jump between it and a 70d in terms of IQ. imo


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## briansquibb (Feb 16, 2012)

mitchell3417 said:


> If you could theoretically afford a 70d new, then you can certainly afford a used 7d right now. They aren't much more expensive and it meets your requirements of great AF and it was 19 wonderful crosstype points. Also IQ is great and honestly you won't see a huge jump between it and a 70d in terms of IQ. imo



+1 go for used kit


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## Marsu42 (Feb 18, 2012)

mitchell3417 said:


> Also IQ is great and honestly you won't see a huge jump between it and a 70d in terms of IQ. imo



??? now this is canon *rumors*, but predicting the iq of a 70D is somewhat risky, wouldn't you agree? I think the 70D will have a new sensor (they cannot still recycle the 18MP, although it is working ok), so iq of course will go up, even if due to lower noise levels alone.


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## ScottyP (Feb 24, 2012)

I think Eugene just has the "itch" to buy a new body. The logic behind rentals, waiting and lens upgrades aren't cooling the itch. Hey, that's ok too. 

Pull...the...trigger..... You...know...you...want...to...


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