# Canon 5D MKIV from a Video Perspective



## Ebrahim Saadawi (Aug 19, 2016)

OK so we now know what the 5D Mak IV is going to be based on the history of CR track record of accuracy. 

The 5D model, the MK II, is a camera that single-handedly started the ''DSLR Revolution'' which completely turned the video/cinema world upside down. 

Then Canon made improvements to the 5DII on the III (real good improvements), but other manufacturers seemed to just keep pulling ahead in video technology and we've been waiting for Canon to strike back and come back as the video leader. 

The biggest and most major downside with Canon DSLRs (and 5DIII) is video resolution/sharpness. Many think it's just that it doesn't shoot 4K video but the fact is that it shoots quite soft 1080p video. While it's contained in a 1080p wrapper it's much closer to 720p. This was fine in the earlier days but now companies are offering real 1080p resolution (Sony A7s) and beyond (4K) in cheaper and smaller cameras. Canon needed to address this ASAP before anything else. It's resolution after all that gives that WOW effect and why everyone is jumping to GH4/A7s. It looks impressive and sharp in YT in 1080p and 2160p. 

The first Canon to address this is the 1DX II which offered incredible resolution at 4K (real DCI) (well the 1DC was the first and had that resolution way back but we won't count it, being at launch a 12.000 USD camera). But both cameras are really not at a price point to make an impact on the video world as a whole. It's a sports DSLR. 



Which brings us to the 5D IV. 

What does it have for us video peeps: 


*1- 4K MJPEG 500mbps. 
*

People who are bitching about that and saying it should be H.264, have NEVER used that codec before and know very little about videography. 

Motion Jpeg on the 1DC and 1DXII and 5DIV, is a MUCH superior codec to ALL competing 4K cameras out there. It's simply a much higher image quality. Much higher data and less to zero compression artefacts. And a little unknown fact is that MJPEG on the 5D is 500mbps 8bit *4:2:2*, meaning it's EBU Broadcast approved and is ''broadcast quality/accepted'' for HD acquisition while all the other competitors simply cannot be used for that as they have 100mbps 8bit 4:2:0 codecs. So the MJPEG codec offers much higher colour and data information. 

This comes in the form of larger file sizes, OF COURSE it does. Would you rather a lower quality codec in a smaller file? Canon could have easily done that. But they choose MJPEG to leap the competition and give a higher IQ. If you want small file sizes, th 5D IV and 1DX II can also shoot h.264 4:2:0 HD. Go ahead and shoot that. 

If you ever used the Canon MJPEG 4K files you know what the image quality is like in terms of lack of compression artefacts, fine film grain, huge colour palette, much more versatile and grade-able image than H.264. Just better and better. Again. Want smaller files, shoot H.264 HD or convert your MJPEG files to anything on you PC, even Standard Def for all I know. 

MJPEG 500Mbps 4:2:2 4K images is the most exciting part about the 5DIV video, as it means it's again for once has just has better IQ and higher end image than all the rivals. Not a downside. The fat files with Canon filmic and proven picture styles' colours, lowlight, 4K sharpness, will give very special images at that price point. 


*2- Slowmotion 
*
The 5DIV gives us slowmotion capability. One is 2x slo-mo in 1080p. and 4X slo-mo in 720p. 

While I wanted 4x at 1080p, its great we do have the ability to hand out slowmotion files for out clients. Wedding videographers will be using that 2x 1080p a lot for sure. And sports videographers will be using that 4x 720p. 


*3- Dual Pixel AF with Touch panel
*

No other video shooting device has this. It's the first time we can now shoot high quality, broadcast level, 4K 4:2:2 video, and have out focusing performed using a touch screen. This feature is HUGE. It almost eliminated the need for follow focus devices and even focus pullers on high end shoots. It proved to be that reliable and good on the 1DXII. It's magic. And best of all, works with all AF lenses. Now any inexperienced shooter can shoot large sensor video with organic focus pulls, and pros can forget about one burden (focus ring) and focus on composition, and this will be also extremlely handy for rigs and stabilization units like steadicams/glidecams/ronins/movi etc where previously your only option was to get a wireless follow focus device and hire someone to focus on a separate monitor for you. Now set to face detection, record. See how big this actually is? This technology will be scaled up in the far future to Alexa/Red type cameras I am sure. 

From the 5D II to III Canon tried to fix the problems of shooting video on DSLRs and these will translate to the MK IV surely so add those too.

1- Eliminated moire and aliasing 
2- Gave good audio with silent manual control with the touch pad
3- Gave a headphone out to monitor audio 
4- fixed overheating issues and extended recording to the max 30min vs 12min. 
5- offered a dedicated record and video liveview mode with meters, dedicated expsoure
6- gave a 1080p HDMI output for monitoring and clean for recording 




So the 5D IV is a very interesting video proposition. The things it lacks are: 

1- We don't know if the 4K is FF or a 1:1 crop. Which would be a near APS-C one. Still good but we hope for FF. The 1:1 crop from the 20mp 1DXII gives a small crop to APS-H but at 30mp 1.6/1.7x crop is not small and is a totally different sensor size. This could potentially make the 5D a 4K APS-C camera and a FF HD camera. 

2- Canon refuses to give non "C" cameras "C"-Log. Which increases highlight DR by at least 1-2 stops (time to install that Cinestyle again to get LOG images -which works very well with the 1DXII btw-)

4- Canon refuses to give manual focus users simple aids like peaking. 

5- Of course no EVF and tilty LCD, so you'll get those screen loups out of the closet again (which do make great EVFs to be honest but just another thing to carry and makes the camera bigger) 

*
The biggest missing detail by far is the 4K video crop. If it's a whole sensor downsample from 30mp to 4K (which Canon has never done) or a 1:1 APS-C+ Crop. *


So how does it leap other common rivals?

A7s/r: 500mbps 4:2:2 vs 10mbps 4:2:0, higher image quality overall, much better colour rendition and skin tones, much stronger body and button layout. Magical focus system and bigger cheaper lens line-up. Much bigger battery life and no overheating issues. 

GH4: Same huge codec difference so higher data rate but the Panny has good Canon-like colours so that's not issue as the sony. Bigger stronger body, DPAF, Much bigger sensor (biggest one here, two different camera classes) and lowlight performance (horrible on GH4) and DR. 


I can't wait to play with fat colourful MJPEG files off the 5D IV and see how it does in 4K lowlight at 6400+ ISO. 


My next video rig is probably going to be the 5D IV + Zucoto LCD loup + Rode mic + new 24-105mm F4/L. 

Small, stabilized, simple, with cinema/broadcast quality files.


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## sigh (Aug 19, 2016)

I agree with you and am looking forward to getting my hands on a Mark IV from a video perspective. Forgetting C-Log (I don't think Canon will put this in the Mark IV), I'd be interested to see what options they provide in terms of clean HDMI out. This may be the first Canon DSLR to offer clean 4K out, but I suspect it will only be 1080p. We'll have to wait and see.


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## pokerz (Aug 19, 2016)

1.7x [email protected] 4k, not even Super35
The camera features a pixel-binned 1080p mode with a maximum frame rate of 60fps

The best canon DSLR can do in 2016 :-\

http://www.eoshd.com/2016/08/depth-look-video-specs-canon-5d-mark-iv/#prettyPhoto


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## Mr. Milo (Aug 19, 2016)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> OK so we now know what the 5D Mak IV is going to be based on the history of CR track record of accuracy.
> 
> The 5D model, the MK II, is a camera that single-handedly started the ''DSLR Revolution'' which completely turned the video/cinema world upside down.
> 
> ...



Do you work for Canon? A lot of praise there. I need to see some sample videos from the Mark IV. I also hate working with Cinestyle. C-log is where its' at. I couldn't care less about the 4K capabilities. It's a joke for me to work with 4K; definitely not worth it.

Dual Pixel Autofocus with Touch Screen is a huge effin' deal though. I'm not ignoring that and seeing many advantages. The first is the costs. For a good Follow focus system on camera rigs, it can cost $1000. Then I need to hire a 2nd person to pull focus. Dual Pixel AF with Touch Screen eliminated all of that IF it works anything like the 1DX Mark II.

I just need to see the price at this point.


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## tpatana (Aug 19, 2016)

Interesting. How about the hdmi, are there screen+recorder combo assuming it outputs something better over hdmi that it can record internal?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 19, 2016)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> The first Canon to address this is the 1DX II which offered incredible resolution at 4K (real DCI) (well the 1DC was the first and had that resolution way back but we won't count it, being at launch a 12.000 USD camera). But both cameras are really not at a price point to make an impact on the video world as a whole. It's a sports DSLR.



Even the 1DC doesn't quite show the natural, crisp detail of A7R II though.



> 1- Eliminated moire and aliasing



hopefully, the 1:1 read plus oversampled Sony stuff is hard to beat though



> 2- Gave good audio



so far 5 series have very poor quality ADC and you need to plug the mic into an external mini-amp first



> So the 5D IV is a very interesting video proposition. The things it lacks are:
> 
> 1- We don't know if the 4K is FF or a 1:1 crop. Which would be a near APS-C one. Still good but we hope for FF. The 1:1 crop from the 20mp 1DXII gives a small crop to APS-H but at 30mp 1.6/1.7x crop is not small and is a totally different sensor size. This could potentially make the 5D a 4K APS-C camera and a FF HD camera.



If it was FF it wouldn't do any oversampling and would be more likely to not read 1:1 and would likely have much worse IQ so I wouldn't be necessarily so wishing for FF.



> 2- Canon refuses to give non "C" cameras "C"-Log. Which increases highlight DR by at least 1-2 stops (time to install that Cinestyle again to get LOG images -which works very well with the 1DXII btw-)



really dumb, if they ahd vision they'd have gone 10 bits, CLOG should have been a given



> 4- Canon refuses to give manual focus users simple aids like peaking.



absurd that they tend to treat BASIC, LOW LEVEL, USABILITY features as something high-end!!!!! 100% focus box is NOT high-end for crying out loud it;s just the lowest level usabilty feature!



> 5- Of course no EVF and tilty LCD, so you'll get those screen loups out of the closet again (which do make great EVFs to be honest but just another thing to carry and makes the camera bigger)



tilt would have been nice



> A7s/r: 500mbps 4:2:2 vs 10mbps 4:2:0, higher image quality overall, much better colour rendition and skin tones, much stronger body and button layout. Magical focus system and bigger cheaper lens line-up. Much bigger battery life and no overheating issues.



OTOH we know the Sony stuff produces wonderfully, ultra, perfectly crisp and yet still entirely natural looking over-sampled video and it provides so basic usability features (that Canon absurdly somehow has decided are uber pro features) and who knows what they add next year.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 19, 2016)

from EosHD:"As we know the Sony A7R II has a 42MP sensor yet manages to offer a full frame 4K mode as well as a Super 35mm crop 4K. However it does this by using an oversampled 5K area of the image sensor in Super 35mm mode. Oversampling has not been mentioned in the 5D Mark IV’s specs so far and again it is unlikely to be there because the 1D X Mark II, which costs double, doesn’t do it either."

don't underestimate how much the oversampling method Sony uses improves quality


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 19, 2016)

the dualpixel af with touch could be nice though


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## Besisika (Aug 19, 2016)

Mr. Milo said:


> Do you work for Canon? A lot of praise there. I need to see some sample videos from the Mark IV. I also hate working with Cinestyle. C-log is where its' at. I couldn't care less about the 4K capabilities. It's a joke for me to work with 4K; definitely not worth it.
> 
> Dual Pixel Autofocus with Touch Screen is a huge effin' deal though. I'm not ignoring that and seeing many advantages. The first is the costs. For a good Follow focus system on camera rigs, it can cost $1000. Then I need to hire a 2nd person to pull focus. Dual Pixel AF with Touch Screen eliminated all of that IF it works anything like the 1DX Mark II.
> 
> I just need to see the price at this point.


I do not work for Canon either, but I have a lot of praises for the video capabilities on the 1DX II.
I have had it for few months now and I am very satisfied.
I agree with Ebrahim on many points, not all, but many.

To me, the most important feature is the face recognition under DPAF. For event shooters like me, 1080P is good enough, and being able to zoom in and out with almost perfect focus at all time is huge, especially that all of my L lenses work flawlessly with it. For moving subject the touch focus is lost as subject is getting closer and bigger (focus on the body for instance instead of the face), while the face recognition stays put. It is superior as well when you pan through different faces, like a singing choir for instance. I simply like the fact that the camera is able to choose the next face as soon as it lost the previous one, while my hand is busy in panning and caring about stabilization. This becomes more evident the longer the lens you use, and nowadays I tend to use the 100-400mm more often at the longer end.

The crop on 4K actually is something that I like very much. I use it for both stills (grab) as well as video when light is so low that I have to stay at very wide aperture (200mm 2.8 instead of 300m 2.8) -the amount of light needed is the same. I read what people say about crop vs full frame, but this is a crop from a full frame sensor and my yes don't see the exposure difference between 300mm 2.8 full frame vs 200mm 2.8 1080P pulled out of 4K via external recorder using the same ISO and shutter speed.
But I understand and respect those who need full frame 4K. 
Given two different needs, I am wondering why Canon didn't give us both as options.

C-log: it is time for Canon to add it to DSLRs; too many asks for it and competitors is giving it.

As far as 5D IV, I think many event users will feel the lack of 120fps at 1080p. Anytime I shoot, I use that feature.

When it comes to stills, anti-flicker is huge. I have seen many people suggesting some mirrorless in low light - these people haven't really used the 1DX II under flickering light. 5D IV new owners will welcome it, especially when moving from III to IV.


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## pokerz (Aug 20, 2016)

Besisika said:


> Mr. Milo said:
> 
> 
> > Do you work for Canon? A lot of praise there. I need to see some sample videos from the Mark IV. I also hate working with Cinestyle. C-log is where its' at. I couldn't care less about the 4K capabilities. It's a joke for me to work with 4K; definitely not worth it.
> ...


DPAF works best with movie AF tech (STM or Nano usm), how many L lens are using them? :-[

1dx II does offer clean, uncompressed 4:2:2 -bit HDMI out with audio only at Full HD resolution(not 4k), do you think 5d4 can "pulled out of 4K via external recorder"?


The maximum iso limit in 4k video is 12800 in 1dx II, what do you think a 2016 CANON flagship DSLR? 

With 1.7x crop, you can never recover the lost in FOV, and none of the speed booster works with canon FF dslr


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## mistaspeedy (Aug 20, 2016)

My guess:
I expect nearly the same quality as before, but with a higher resolution.

Before the 1DX mark II and 5D mark IV (ignoring the 1DC), all of Canon's DSLR's offered pretty much the same poor quality 1080p (which is closer to 720p as others have said)...
Now we will get 4x that resolution.... we will get crappy 4K video out of it which will probably be closer to 1440p resolution.
If we get DCI 4K, then that might change things a little bit with a bit of extra detail compared to UHD 4K but still not up to standard with the best 4K DSLR/mirrorless options. Certainly a very nice big leap forward, but stopping short of what many were hoping for.


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## Ebrahim Saadawi (Aug 21, 2016)

I'll try to answer all. 1- Codec: people were expecting H.265: actually H.246 and H.265 are highly compressed codecs designed for delivery. It's absolutely zero competition between Canon's 500mbps data rate and 4:2:2 colour sampling. H.265 would be a compressed 50-100mm 4:2:0 implementation like the Samsung NX1 which is veey weak and has horrible shadow macroblocking and tearing with high speed motion. Just because it's new doesn't mean it's holy grail. For shooting (not delivery) Motion JPEG at extreme data rate and 4:2:2 is much much higher quality. When we asked a Canon representative about the reason why they choose that very large 500mbps codec and not just use a normal 100mbps 4:2:0 codec like the rivals he said: Canon believes it's the minimum codec requirement for high quality 4K video. And 4:2:2 makes the cameras approved for HD broadcast aqcuisition. (while while all the rivals can't) 2- Canon is not as crisp as Sony: Every Canon 4K camera has absolute zero in-camera sharpening, not at the debayer stage and not forced in you in the picture profile. 1Dc and 1dx and xc10 are always said to be ''lower than 4k'' by inexperienced viewers. The reason is that the regular viewer does not understand the difference between resolution and sharpness. Resolution is how much actual information is recorded (when put on a proper chart, the 1DC,X,xc10 record 1700tv/li which is the maximum 4k resolution on the market). They're just not ''crisp'' as Sony's and Samsung because there's no excessive edge enhacement that cannot be turned off. This is a huge reason why cinema people say the Canons' are more natural and more filmic (film has detail, no sharpening). If you want the Sony look you can actually turn up in-camera sharpness and get that ''crisp'' youtube look. So far, canon has never under delivered in 4k resolution, so there's no reason to think they'll do with the 5D. It's probably just going to have an identical look to the 1DX II (Same codec and picture styles). 3- I work for Canon and this is a lot of praise: no I don't work for Canon, I wish, much better job than a dentist  about praise: this is a post specifically made to highlight the praise that people here seem to miss because they are photographers. Plus I listed the rivals' merits anyhow (EVF, Peaking, zebras, tilt screen), but one thing that seems strangely overlooked is that the 5D (based on Canon 4k mjpeg history) will have the highest image quality of all the DSLRs/mirrorless cameras at the price point, doesn't that matter a bit? Plus the usability issues can be worked around as we did for years in the 5D days (Loup gives you a huge EVF, IS lenses are better for video than IBiS which is a known fact as IBIS shows occassional robotic jumping, and an external small LCD/EVF can guve you peaking for manual focus, but DPAF will make manual focus much less usable for you, trust me, it's magic!). So it's an extremely appealing proposition for cinemstography, as the cinema-grade 1DC/1Dx image has finally came down to 5D price point. It's not a very appealing proposition for wedding/doc as the large high quality codec in 4K is going to be suitable for high end applications. Unless it has a very good h.264 HD mode for docs as the 1dx does. 6- HDMI: It's maxed out at 1080p 60p. On the 1dx and 1dc, when the camera is internally set to 4k crop mode, the 1080p 4:2:2 hdmi output is one of the highest quality HD ever, rivaling C300. 5D MK IV will be the same. So for those who donlt want to shoot MJPEG and downscale to HD, the camera HDMI can internally make a 4kto2k downsample and record it to ProRes via any cheap Ninja star/2/blade. But no 4K HDMI. Good thing internal 4K is high quality!


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 21, 2016)

Thanks to those giving intelligent fair comments that are helpful and no thanks to the others. You know the saying, "better to be thought a fool than to....."

Jack


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## shooter_ (Aug 21, 2016)

Hey, ready to buy a new rig?? Shame on you Ebrahim Saadawi! Go to refund the guys you scammed on EOSHD:

http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20260-how-i-got-scammed-through-one-of-this-sites-highest-rated-accounts/?page=48
http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20396-cannot-post-ebrahim-saadawi/


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## uxr51 (Aug 21, 2016)

Is there any information on how will 1080P be processed? pixel bin, line skip, oversample, crop? The 1DX II does pixel binning and the quality is just terrible for a 1080p video in the year 2016. 1080p looks like 720p. I wonder how will 720p 120fps will look like. 

Also, if its the same 1080p quality as in the 1dx II then I don't get why would they not include 120fps other than to protect the 1DX II or just being lazy. 1080p 120fps has the same throughput as 4k 30fps. Any ideas?


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## marvinhello (Aug 21, 2016)

uxr51 said:


> Is there any information on how will 1080P be processed? pixel bin, line skip, oversample, crop? The 1DX II does pixel binning and the quality is just terrible for a 1080p video in the year 2016. 1080p looks like 720p. I wonder how will 720p 120fps will look like.
> 
> Also, if its the same 1080p quality as in the 1dx II then I don't get why would they not include 120fps other than to protect the 1DX II or just being lazy. 1080p 120fps has the same throughput as 4k 30fps. Any ideas?



Starting from 5D Mark III all Canon DSLRs use pixel bining, using very large group (3x3 or 4x4) resulting a 700p-800p bayer image and upscale to 1080p, this was done to optimise readout speed on such a large and pixel dense sensor.

In comparison, C300 did 2x2 bining from 3840x2160 to get a clean 1080p image, the OLPF was specifically designed for this bining method as well.


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## jr1 (Aug 22, 2016)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> 1- Codec: people were expecting H.265: actually H.246 and H.265 are highly compressed codecs designed for delivery. It's absolutely zero competition between Canon's 500mbps data rate and 4:2:2 colour sampling. H.265 would be a compressed 50-100mm 4:2:0 implementation like the Samsung NX1 which is veey weak and has horrible shadow macroblocking and tearing with high speed motion. Just because it's new doesn't mean it's holy grail. For shooting (not delivery) Motion JPEG at extreme data rate and 4:2:2 is much much higher quality. When we asked a Canon representative about the reason why they choose that very large 500mbps codec and not just use a normal 100mbps 4:2:0 codec like the rivals he said: Canon believes it's the minimum codec requirement for high quality 4K video. And 4:2:2 makes the cameras approved for HD broadcast aqcuisition. (while while all the rivals can't)



Nope. Actually, H.264 and H.265 are highly efficient wrappers (significantly moreso than MJPEG) that allow higher quality at smaller file sizes.

Panasonic's AVCIntra codec (which the new Varicams shoot with), and Sony's XAVC (F55/F5) are both H.264 variants. They're highly efficient and are able to provide superior quality in a smaller file size. 

H.265 is even more efficient if implemented appropriately, there's just no real support for the codec as yet.

Canon have already implemented XF-AVC (again, an H.264 variant) in the XC10 and C300ii - if they were serious about the 5D as a video camera, why not implement that in it a la Sony's XAVC-S?

There's a lot more to an image than just the codec specs - given Sony's XAVC-S from the A7s/ii looks better than pretty much any other H.264 implementation in a similarly priced DSLR/M on the market. And the AVCHD isn't really majorly different. 

If you took the A7s/r/ii's AVCHD/XAVC-S on specs alone, you could be forgiven for thinking it wouldn't look too great, but you'd be proven wrong as soon as you shot anything with it.

The same can be true the other way. High bitrate and decent colour subsampling looks great on paper, but doesn't necessarily translate to a superior image.



Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> IS lenses are better for video than IBiS which is a known fact as IBIS shows occassional robotic jumping


This is a disingenuous statement, as native E-mount glass generally has IS (OSS), which gives you the one-two punch of IS + IBIS. Or you can turn IBIS off if you really need. What IBIS brings is the ability to stabilise non-IS lenses, which IMO is significantly more interesting and useful.



Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> 3- I work for Canon and this is a lot of praise: no I don't work for Canon, I wish, much better job than a dentist


Or a con artist, right? 

Be great for you to stop talking about things you have little experience with, and pay back the people you conned out of their money.


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## scyrene (Aug 22, 2016)

pokerz said:


> The maximum iso limit in 4k video is 12800 in 1dx II, what do you think a 2016 CANON flagship DSLR?



From the manual:

"Under [z2: ISO speed settings], if you set [Range for H]’s [Maximum] setting to [H2 (204800)], the automatic ISO speed setting range’s maximum will be expanded to H2 (equivalent to ISO 204800)." (p.299)


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## rrcphoto (Aug 22, 2016)

jr1 said:


> Canon have already implemented XF-AVC (again, an H.264 variant) in the XC10 and C300ii - if they were serious about the 5D as a video camera, why not implement that in it a la Sony's XAVC-S?



because both those units are fan cooled and use DiGiC DV which is entirely different then the DiGiC's that are in cameras. if you note neither the XC10 nor the C300 have much in the way of stills options.

then you have the cooling .. both are active cooled, which would not work well in a sealed camera environment.

Be great for you to stop talking about things you have little experience with.


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 22, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> jr1 said:
> 
> 
> > Canon have already implemented XF-AVC (again, an H.264 variant) in the XC10 and C300ii - if they were serious about the 5D as a video camera, why not implement that in it a la Sony's XAVC-S?
> ...



I like that - it applies to a fair number of 5D4 thread posters lately, without getting into names. Is it the full moon or what?  How many more days?

Jack


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## jr1 (Aug 22, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> because both those units are fan cooled and use DiGiC DV which is entirely different then the DiGiC's that are in cameras. if you note neither the XC10 nor the C300 have much in the way of stills options.
> 
> then you have the cooling .. both are active cooled, which would not work well in a sealed camera environment.
> 
> Be great for you to stop talking about things you have little experience with.



Hence I said _if_ they were serious about the 5D being a video camera. A variant of XF-AVC could have been implemented if they really wanted to. Realistically, if XF-AVC is what Canon are going to bolster their video cameras around, it would make more sense to attempt to implement a version than opt for MJPEG. Don't underestimate Sony's consistency of codec and log implementation.

Obviously it's not a video camera, and is not designed to be. Yet many complain about this or that that it doesn't have.

It's a great stills camera that allows you to shoot video. It's probably _not_ the best option if all you want to shoot is video.

I just wanted to clear up the misinformation that MJPEG is inherently better than H.264. The fact is, it depends on the implementation, and it's incorrect to suggest that simply using an H.264 codec makes the image inferior.


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## JamesDrum (Aug 22, 2016)

DON'T TRUST EBRAHIM SAADAWI! This guy stole money from members in EOSHD forum by creating fake postings. 

Read it yourself:
http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20260-how-i-got-scammed-through-one-of-this-sites-highest-rated-accounts/?page=37


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## Mikehit (Aug 22, 2016)

JamesDrum said:


> DON'T TRUST EBRAHIM SAADAWI! This guy stole money from members in EOSHD forum by creating fake postings.
> 
> Read it yourself:
> http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20260-how-i-got-scammed-through-one-of-this-sites-highest-rated-accounts/?page=37



So you join the forum to tell us that, when he is not actually selling anything?


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 22, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> JamesDrum said:
> 
> 
> > DON'T TRUST EBRAHIM SAADAWI! This guy stole money from members in EOSHD forum by creating fake postings.
> ...



Will CR get back to normality in a few days. I sure hope so. 

Jack


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## rrcphoto (Aug 22, 2016)

jr1 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > because both those units are fan cooled and use DiGiC DV which is entirely different then the DiGiC's that are in cameras. if you note neither the XC10 nor the C300 have much in the way of stills options.
> ...



everything says they COULD NOT put XF-AVC into the 5D mark IV, especially if they could not with the 1DX Mark II with it's larger heatsink and piping, and massive battery.

the XC10 vents hot air to the outside and has fans to support XF-AVC .. how do you do that with a full weather sealed camera body?

there's no evidence that canon has the technology to process h.264 XF-AVC efficiently enough to work in a sealed camera. at. all.

to be honest .. by reading EOSHD who DOES have a love in with Sony .. everyone is frustrated with Sony's LOG and CODEC.

MJPEG is better for accuracy, but not for efficiency in codec storage and also transcoding to another format. it's also not optimized for today's PC's and laptops.

however you can grab a screen capture from the actual image with no losses by taking a inherently compressed image that is a delta between two consecutive frames (which is H.264,etc).

there's less potential for compression artifacts and blocking with MJPEG than with h.264,etc - however it's simply unwieldy.


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## jayphotoworks (Aug 22, 2016)

Jack Douglas said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > JamesDrum said:
> ...



I was just about to reply to the OP until I got to the scammed part. I then hopped over to EOSHD just read the entire thread (skipping a few pages in the process). Basically this:

a) Ebrahim Saadawi is a 21 year old dentist in Egypt who everyone thought was a 61 year old filmmaker with many decades of filmmaking experience.

b) He's been leaving comments and technical commentary under that 61 year old filmmaker guise.

c) He did a review on a SLR Magic Rangefinder and then sold it to 3 separate EOSHD members and never shipped the lens.

d) He left a reply when confronted on Facebook that "You just got ripped off, and there is nothing you can do about it." basically rubbed it in the victim's faces.

e) After the mods intervened and much investigation by online members, his identity was revealed and he was compelled to return the money scammed and actually send the lens out.

f) After this, it was realized that he actually only shoots with a Canon Rebel T3, and has never used any of the equipment he reviewed previously (1DC, etc.) and he claimed his equipment was stolen to avoid scrutiny.

d) After an exhaustive 48 page thread over there, he actually sent the lens out, but never returned the rest of the money.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2016)

Jack Douglas said:


> Will CR get back to normality in a few days. I sure hope so.



Typically the crazy in the run-up to a big launch runs a few days past the announcement, dies back a bit, then heats up again as more reviews/tests start showing up. Then things calm down...except for a little blip when DxO publishes their Scores.

Then again...what's 'normal'?


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## rrcphoto (Aug 22, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Jack Douglas said:
> 
> 
> > Will CR get back to normality in a few days. I sure hope so.
> ...



no the day of the announcement. the Internet will break with all the people signing up and putting in their first post on how they are going to switch to Sony because canon's lost the plot.

then after that, things will die off a bit until reviews. which .. by the sounds of it, will start to come out REALLY shortly after announcement.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> no the day of the announcement. the Internet will break



The most concurrent CR users online was 18Dec2013. As near as I can tell, the only news event of the day was that DxO announced Optics Pro support for the Nikon Df.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 22, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > no the day of the announcement. the Internet will break
> ...



the start of school holidays? I have long suspected the age group of some posters...


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 22, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



Yes, maybe that's it. I have readjusted my perspective so I can just laugh it off. It is kind of funny in a way. 

Jack


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## hne (Aug 22, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> jr1 said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



You guys are wrong on so many points that it almost hurts. Please let me ruin a perfectly fine, if a bit heated, debate with a few facts:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Canon crammed 4K XF-AVC Intra into the kit-lens-sized body of the XC-10. The heat vent has more to do with size than heat production: The camera uses the same battery as the 5DmkIV will and manages 2h recording time - slightly longer than the 5DmkIII does on a single battery charge. This translates into a total system power draw of 6.5 watt. You can vent that through rubber (6 times less heat conductive than glass) no problem.
[*]My phone does h264 encoded 4K at an even lower bitrate. Lower bitrate means more effort encoding it. You don't need no magic DiGiC DV for that stuff. Any SoC producer can give you chips capable of that.
[*]XF-AVC Intra is h264 in an MXF container at up to 305Mbps. Real broadcast tech. Would be awsome to have in consumer electronics for once. Different variants of h264 in MXF container are used as both production and archival format for broadcasters around the world, for example in the form of AVCIntra100 for HD. Might be a bit partial here since it's what I do for a living.
[*]The Intra-variants of h264 (like AVCIntra and the All-I choice in recent Canon dSLRs) do no predictive encoding. Each frame is encoded separately, just as with MJPEG.
[*]H264 intra frames make more efficient use (roughly a factor 2) of the available bits than the JPEG compression used in MJPEG. At a given bit rate, this means you'd get better quality with H264 (such as AVCIntra, XF-AVC Intra or Canons All-I MP4-wrapped h264) than MJPEG. The only upside with the MJPEG compression is the ability to extract a JPEG still without recoding it, if you got the framing perfect and don't have to do any postprocessing at all for your stills delivery.
[*]MJPEG was optimised for realtime encoding on computer hardware that is now two decades old. We've now got h264 hardware en- and decoding built into our CPUs, GPUs, phones... even the raspberry pi has it!
[/list]


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## Ebrahim Saadawi (Aug 23, 2016)

No body is so wrong. They're just contributing. Be nice. Anyway. Let's be objective for a while and think if Canon had a better option or not. First of all, we know, from inside canon, and common reason, that their new awesome XF-AVC codec CANNOT be implemented in a 1D style SLR, because dslrs are locked off devices and don't have the place for the latge processor dedicated and active cooling. If you don't believe CANon on this, look at all their XF-AVC cameras and see if they have loud fans or not (a 5d with an open fan is NO option). Currently the codec is used in the Canon C300 MKII, and XC10, and camcorder large XF line. Still don't trust them, okay look at sny, they have the EXACT same situation. Their high end broadcast codec if XAVC-I they use that in large active cooled cinema cameras like the FS7, F5, F55. So why doesn't sony carry that to they smaller cameras while they seem to be so aggressive and wanting to? They find a solution which is just make a completely regular h.264 codec with 100mbps and 4:2:0, just like AVCHD. And call it XAVC-S. And now that the weak h.264 codec they use for 4K in all their cameras. So after proving they simply couldn't implement a high end XFAVC codec in the 5D, what best could they do? Find a codec with Brosdcast quality that can still be used. There comes the choice of MJPEG. Is it efficient? NO, we are giving up on efficiency here that you get with an h.264 codec but getting instead a broadcast, 4:2:2, 500mbps image that can be graded intensively and has little to zero artefacts. (btw XFAVC 405mbps 422 would gave the same down side you here seem to slaughter, latge files!) but anyway. Canon gave me a solution to shoot broadcast/film quality video while sony/samsung/others give no option rather measly old 100mbps h.264 4:2:0. Which is better for a film maker? It's not worth discussing, any filmmaker aside from those shooting home videos and birthdays would choose the mjpeg for its superior image (no shame in shooting that, we shoot our kids birthdays too even pro film people)... And for that application, Canon gives you your belved efficient tiny h,264 in HD up to 60 for that ''real' feeling. Not sure who would be upset with Canon codec decision in the 1Dc, 1dxii, 5dvi.


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## Ebrahim Saadawi (Aug 23, 2016)

Jack Douglas said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > JamesDrum said:
> ...


 Stalking me all over with a topic thread in your hand from an online forum trying to make anyone around seem like I am a scammer, is absolutely stupid. Nobody cares. Not a single one of my fb or twitter or instagram friends who got cares, zero. No body also cares about an internet trial. Rather than have some laughs. So save (wow seems a lot if work) your time for something else. Or keep posting behind me, I don't mind either.


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## jayphotoworks (Aug 23, 2016)

http://www.eoshd.com/2016/08/depth-look-video-specs-canon-5d-mark-iv/

This is an overview of what the 5Div brings to the table for video with some references to its peers.


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## tpatana (Aug 23, 2016)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> Stalking me all over with a topic thread in your hand from an online forum trying to make anyone around seem like I am a scammer, is absolutely stupid. Nobody cares. Not a single one of my fb or twitter or instagram friends who got cares, zero. No body also cares about an internet trial. Rather than have some laughs. So save (wow seems a lot if work) your time for something else. Or keep posting behind me, I don't mind either.



If you're some young dude with Rebel but talk like old experienced video dude who has extensive amount of experience about film production shoots with 1DC, yes, you should be called out for that. You're just pathetic, and hopefully you fixed the items you scammed people for.

Also, while writing, at random intervals try hitting the funny big key above right shift. Usually twice in a row. It'd make reading much easier.


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 23, 2016)

tpatana said:


> Ebrahim Saadawi said:
> 
> 
> > Stalking me all over with a topic thread in your hand from an online forum trying to make anyone around seem like I am a scammer, is absolutely stupid. Nobody cares. Not a single one of my fb or twitter or instagram friends who got cares, zero. No body also cares about an internet trial. Rather than have some laughs. So save (wow seems a lot if work) your time for something else. Or keep posting behind me, I don't mind either.
> ...



Similar thoughts to mine except that the internet is a place where talk is cheap with anonymity and social media lynch mobbing is troubling. So how does one get the full facts to make a judgment? We've had a week or two of all kinds of commentary, extravagant claims, insults, you name it. 

Jack


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## shooter_ (Aug 24, 2016)

What the hell? 
You know who Ebrahim Saadawi is? 
There are guys scammed on EOSHD, you know? Hey, hey, scammed, stolen by a crook, ok?
Go there, read the threads, all is public, educate yourself. 
Same item sold to different people. Same scam over Western Union. Same guy over two identities. Lies from his filthy keyboard over more lies. 

He taunts all those who differ from him on this point he claims to be a decent dentistry student. Here, there and everywhere. Keeps his own name, making a name on dirt track, imagine so? Lousy try to divert attention from his scams. To make a victim of. An actual coward, laughing on judgement day.
Maybe culture is the bitch... 
Others say....oh damned internet!
Disagreed. 
You are a shame to Egypt, dude. 
There are thieves anywhere. Uncovered there for the con artist he is, he came here. 
Beware. He doesn't scam his friends, family. Anonymous posters are his target. He only started to scam people from highest rated accounts. This guy is the worst Internet has. Cameras are his hobby. Scams to follow.


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## Ebrahim Saadawi (Aug 24, 2016)

The only one Sony people can really go up with, is if the 4K mode is really a crop. 1.7x crop. It would kind of disappoint me too really because I want to shoot 5D for the FF, not have to buy a FF camera to get good APS-C S35 video. But you can really think of it as ideal from another perspective, as you'd maybe have the industry standard FF camera for still and a standard s35 video/cinema camera in one package. 

Fiddling with FF DOF in motion is NOT FUN! But I do want it.


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## pokerz (Aug 25, 2016)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> The only one Sony people can really go up with, is if the 4K mode is really a crop. 1.7x crop. It would kind of disappoint me too really because I want to shoot 5D for the FF, not have to buy a FF camera to get good APS-C S35 video. But you can really think of it as ideal from another perspective, as you'd maybe have the industry standard FF camera for still and a standard s35 video/cinema camera in one package.
> 
> Fiddling with FF DOF in motion is NOT FUN! But I do want it.


1.74x is not far from M43, which m43 can use speed booster to recover FF DOF.


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## pokerz (Aug 28, 2016)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXSqKX3OexQ
5d4 rolling shutter is on par with A6300 in 4K
Nice job Canon!


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## Ebrahim Saadawi (Aug 28, 2016)

First thing I noticed in Canon's demo videos was a7s-level rolling shutter. And excessive sharpening (artificial video look). The former is inherent to the sensor readout and the later is hopefully because they set their camera to Standard (has +4 sharpness, WAY too high) as protocol for official launch video. 

I need a side by side with the 1DX II with a zoom lens on both to compensate for the extra crop (1.45 vs 1.64 per Canon, but I still hear 1.75 mainly coming from the EOSHD article. Don't know who to trust (Canon or Andrew Reid - who I respect very much - and can't calculate it myself)


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## gpp (Aug 30, 2016)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> ... I need a side by side with the 1DX II with a zoom lens on both to compensate for the extra crop (1.45 vs 1.64 per Canon, but I still hear 1.75 mainly coming from the EOSHD article. Don't know who to trust (Canon or Andrew Reid - who I respect very much - and can't calculate it myself)



Andrew Reid (August 21, 2016): "It is extraordinary that he continues to use the same name on other forums, now he's been uncovered for the con artist he is." http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20396-cannot-post-ebrahim-saadawi/?page=1


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 4, 2016)

I do not currently shoot video, but have been interested in getting into it. I can't really do 4K now, but will probably start once I upgrade my PC in Jan/Feb next year. For now I'd be happy with getting to grips with 1080p and DPAF. 

What are the system requirements for editing 4K MJPEG? 
What is the recommended workflow with 4K MJPEG?


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## CSD (Sep 4, 2016)

StudentOfLight said:


> I do not currently shoot video, but have been interested in getting into it. I can't really do 4K now, but will probably start once I upgrade my PC in Jan/Feb next year. For now I'd be happy with getting to grips with 1080p and DPAF.
> 
> What are the system requirements for editing 4K MJPEG?
> What is the recommended workflow with 4K MJPEG?



Workstation hardware or high end PC. You'll need all the power you can get to handle the footage. Personally I use the following:

X99 motherboard with an Intel i7 5930 processor.
64Gb RAM
nVidia Quadro 4200
I have a m.2 256Gb SSD as a main OS drive
For scratch I use a NVMe SSD (Intel 750)
I also have 2 x 6Tb mechanical storage drives internally and a Synology 5 bay NAS to back up to on a bonded 1Gb/e link.

I seriously recommend a PC over a Mac as it's far cheaper to upgrade/expand a PC over a Apple rig. You don't need 64Gb RAM but it does help especially under Premiere as you can assigned RAM to each core so for my rig I can have 6 x 8Gb for rendering out. 32Gb is the bare minimum. I seriously recommend a professional graphics card like a FireGL or a Quadro as there's nothing worse than the GPU crashing during a render. SSDs are all but mandatory due to the high throughput demands of the data. Processors are either the i7 or the Xeon E5s. Xeon's will allow you do multiprocessor boards and the X99 mobo's can handle some versions but without the ECC RAM abilities.

As a side note, water cooling is great for these rigs for almost silent running even under heavy load.


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 4, 2016)

Thanks for the reply re hardware. Do you transcode your MJPEG footage or is it better to use it as captured?


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## CSD (Sep 5, 2016)

StudentOfLight said:


> Thanks for the reply re hardware. Do you transcode your MJPEG footage or is it better to use it as captured?



I use the footage as the client gives it to me, I rarely shoot video myself I'm just one of the few people in my area that has a decent rig for editing and rendering which is available. I know it can handle 4-5 layers of 4K footage in realtime with no proxies. I could ask one of the guys for his workflow, not sure what rigs he uses though.


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## Diko (Sep 6, 2016)

I don't know if anyone already published *PeterGregg's video*. IMHO he has some good point. Though it's way too long. 

Maybe some will say *TL;DW*, but I say to all of those amateurs, learn to watch in 2x speed and to FastForward while not missing the context.


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## Tugela (Sep 6, 2016)

Are you planning to sell your copy of the 5D4 soon?


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## shooter_ (Sep 7, 2016)

gpp said:


> Ebrahim Saadawi said:
> 
> 
> > ... I need a side by side with the 1DX II with a zoom lens on both to compensate for the extra crop (1.45 vs 1.64 per Canon, but I still hear 1.75 mainly coming from the EOSHD article. Don't know who to trust (Canon or Andrew Reid - who I respect very much - and can't calculate it myself)
> ...



Disgusting this scammer.....Shame on you ebrahim saadawi

*****vomit smiley*****


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## gsealy (Sep 7, 2016)

I am a Canon guy and have a whole bunch of Canon DSLRs, camcorders and a C100. But I have to give some serious consideration to the GH5 when it comes out. Rumor has it as 10 bit 4:2:2 internally, 4K at 60 FPS, and it also will support 4K HDMI out to be externally recorded on an Atomos Shogun. It has a log mode. It's micro 4/3, but a Metabones Speed booster not only allows the use Canon lens, but it also means that the GH5 becomes essentially a Super 35 camera. We'll see exactly what it is and the price, and I have to wait and see. A lot of people love the GH4, and the GH5 to be announced in a few weeks should be better.


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## pvalpha (Sep 7, 2016)

I think the only reasonable reason to get a 5DMIV is because its a good FF stills camera. Canon is highly conservative, and as much as I love speculating on what they could do - the truth is they aren't going to do it. They believe in incremental advancement and won't self-compete even if they *could* leap-frog the competition. 

That doesn't mean that people are going to fail to produce kick-butt 4k video with the camera. Realizing its probably not the *best* tool for video is important... but also realizing that if your job is to first take stills photos and maybe shoot some video segments... then you are probably carrying one of the top 5 cameras in the world capable of doing both if you have it in your bag. (hopefully to be borne out once its in the hands of the world at large) The fact that *at least* one of those cameras is also a canon and at least one of the others belong to Nikon should be an insight into how valuable a tool it will be. 

I use a 7D2. FF is not for me because now that my 7D2 finally works perfectly, I'm happy. When the 7D3 comes out sometime around 2022(I daydream about 2017/2018)... I'll probably pick it up. By then people will be drooling over the 16k wall-sheet TVs (That descend like a projector screen from a soundbar mounted on the wall) costing $3k., and constantly anticipating Canon's fall from grace and imminent obscurity (despite being number one) with its DSLR line up not having 8k video yet outside its 1DXIII... and wondering why everything isn't mirrorless because Canon DSLRs weigh too much compared to the competition... And countless thousands of amazingly great videos will have been made with the 5D4 while the 5D5 or its successor is being speculated about rampantly...

It is a rumor site after all...


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## gpp (Sep 7, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Are you planning to sell your copy of the 5D4 soon?



Payment via Western Union? 
- https://ebrahimsaadawi.wordpress.com/
- http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20260-how-i-got-scammed-through-one-of-this-sites-highest-rated-accounts/?page=38
- http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20396-cannot-post-ebrahim-saadawi/
- http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20475-life-vs-film/?page=2


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 8, 2016)

gpp said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Are you planning to sell your copy of the 5D4 soon?
> ...



Sad and I sympathize but I would say that a few people learned a valuable albeit slightly expensive lesson. 

Ebrahim Saadawi is it worth burning in hell over? Pay these guys back.

Jack


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## gpp (Sep 9, 2016)

JamesDrum said:


> DON'T TRUST EBRAHIM SAADAWI! This guy stole money from members in EOSHD forum by creating fake postings.
> 
> Read it yourself:
> http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20260-how-i-got-scammed-through-one-of-this-sites-highest-rated-accounts/?page=37



Any progress?
http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20260-how-i-got-scammed-through-one-of-this-sites-highest-rated-accounts/?do=findComment&comment=154675

http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/20260-how-i-got-scammed-through-one-of-this-sites-highest-rated-accounts/?do=findComment&comment=155123


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## Josh Denver (Sep 11, 2016)

1.64x crop is identical to Canon APS-C which I and all consider s35. 

The crop is no issue. It's simply a FF camera in 1080p and a s35 camera is 4K. 

(BTW Ursa 4K is 1.78x crop and no one calls it not s35. Raven is 1.75x crop and is S35, point is, these are very marginal differences) 

So Now we have a s35 full 4K DCI Canon DSLR with internal 4:2:2 and DPAF. 

What the?! This is SO exciting specs!! 

Since the 5DII we know that Canon Standard Picture Styles provide an extremely film like colours and overal contrast. Just a bit rough in the DR area so this will translate to the 5DIV. 

4:2:2 as Abraham said is a license Canon gave to this camera for broadcast approval. From now on all CNN/BBC/SKY etc small cameras will be replaced with the new 4:2:2 cameras by Canon (XC10, 5D). 

Keep in mind this market (broadcast) is not small. It made the C300 what it is. So see how big and influential it is! 

So this camera works on lots of markets, broadcast (422), Films (S35 4K), Documentary/Weddings (DPAF), I mean that's a lot. 

Did we WANT C-Log? FF 4K? EVF attachement? Peaking/Zebras? Yes. But these are reserved for the C line and can be worked around and the good thing is that we've been working around the 5D bad video ergonomics for hears so now we have lots of great options.


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