# Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 19, 2018)

> We’ve received a bit of information about Canon’s upcoming and highly anticipated first attempt at a full frame mirrorless camera. We have been unable to confirm this information with known sources, but we figured we’d share it anyway.
> We’re told that marketing material for the camera is currently being produced by various Canon subsidiaries around the globe.
> A couple of people have claimed to have seen the camera and have given some description of it.
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Hector1970 (Aug 19, 2018)

Right. “R” is the key.
It stands for 50 MP 20FPS 15 stop dynamic range with a universal shutter for about 2000 dollars.
It’s a secret code.


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## fullstop (Aug 19, 2018)

"R" = Really Right! 
really right 28 MP sensor, really right compact body, really right functionality, really right new lens mount parameters and lenses, really right affordable price.


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## takesome1 (Aug 19, 2018)

Let the bashing begin.
R
Rejected
Really bad
Really to late

But most likely it might be 
pRe ordered


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## MartinF. (Aug 19, 2018)

thicker than M50 - hmm; EF-mount?
Looking forward to the end of all this guessing.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2018)

'R' for the EF-R lenses, with a Rear-projecting design that allows a more compact-appearing mounted lens with the standard EF mount, since part of the lens protrudes into the camera body.

Looking forward to native EF mount and small EF-R lenses with Dixie-cup rear caps.


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## sdz (Aug 19, 2018)

The one bit of info everyone cares about is the mount Canon will use with these new cameras. But, that's information that the rumors never address. This fact makes me doubt the truth of these rumors.


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## bokehmon22 (Aug 19, 2018)

I wonder which company would give us high resolution fast EVF first. Hopefully Canon would do it right.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Aug 19, 2018)

I feel confident that the new camera will have an EF mount. Especially because it looks like canon is rolling out some very expensive EF glass.. If you expect people to go over and want them to go over to a new mount, you don't bring out a huge series of expensive high end EF glass just before the launch.. But them we are talking about canon, they do what they want and not everything will always be the logical thing to do


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## BillB (Aug 19, 2018)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> I feel confident that the new camera will have an EF mount. Especially because it looks like canon is rolling out some very expensive EF glass.. If you expect people to go over and want them to go over to a new mount, you don't bring out a huge series of expensive high end EF glass just before the launch.. But them we are talking about canon, they do what they want and not everything will always be the logical thing to do



Canon is usually logical, but their logic often seems to take them places different than where others think they should be going.


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## edoorn (Aug 19, 2018)

Well, there are a whole bunch of people who would consider it much more logical if Canon would use a completely new mount, and add EF compatibility thru an adapter.


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## Jack Douglas (Aug 19, 2018)

I read Cr for the humour, even if it's twisted. I, also, can't wait to see how this plays out.

Jack


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## Josh Leavitt (Aug 19, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> 'R' for the EF-R lenses, with a Rear-projecting design that allows a more compact-appearing mounted lens with the standard EF mount, since part of the lens protrudes into the camera body.
> 
> Looking forward to native EF mount and small EF-R lenses with Dixie-cup rear caps.



It's an interesting thought. It would certainly keep the lens sizes down. But I'd be a little nervous about damaging exposed rear elements while mounting the lens.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2018)

Josh Leavitt said:


> It's an interesting thought. It would certainly keep the lens sizes down. But I'd be a little nervous about damaging exposed rear elements while mounting the lens.


I'm sure they'd be protected by a barrel and slightly recessed like many current lenses.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Well, m50 is the ugliest shit anyone can even imagine to produce. Canon made it though ...


Well, at least it has some good stuff on the inside....unlike some people, who regardless of their appearance have just ugly shit on the inside.


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## Joules (Aug 19, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Well, m50 is the ugliest shit anyone can even imagine to produce. Canon made it though ...


Don't project your opinion on other people. I personally like the look of Canon's recent M cameras. They look much better than the APS-C Sonys or the retro deaign cameras to me.

Even so, my 80D looks even better so going a bit thicker with the modern design of the M50 is going the right direction for me.


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## BillB (Aug 19, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> thicker than M50 - hmm; EF-mount?
> Looking forward to the end of all this guessing.



A bigger battery might do it too. Come to think of it, a bigger battery might wipe out some of the size reduction value from a short flange mount, so maybe an LP-E6N battery along with the EF mount.


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## Don Haines (Aug 19, 2018)

I can easily see it taking EF lenses, having a LP-e6 battery, and some EF-? lenses that project into the body... Such a camera would be welcome in my kit.... particularly if the give it a 60FPS (or better) burst rate....


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## Del Paso (Aug 19, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Well, m50 is the ugliest shit anyone can even imagine to produce. Canon made it though ...


Very bad taste, and I don't mean the camera...


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## Leigh (Aug 19, 2018)

"R" = No AI Filter, as in 5DS "(R)" .


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## sdz (Aug 19, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Well, m50 is the ugliest shit anyone can even imagine to produce. Canon made it though ...



Canon M-50:







"...ugliest shit anyone can even imagine."


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## zim (Aug 19, 2018)

That's what I've been hoping for for quite some time now, a scaled up m5 with 35 1.4L on it. 7D2 control layout and a nice optional battery grip and the only thing holding me back would be how good the EVF is.
Bring it on please Canon!


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## Etienne (Aug 19, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Well, m50 is the ugliest shit anyone can even imagine to produce. Canon made it though ...



The M50 is a nice looking camera.


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## KeithBreazeal (Aug 19, 2018)

One of two things will happen. Canon will introduce the new FF mirrorless line and we will all say "well, is that it?" Or "Oh crap, I'm selling all my DSLRs."
For me, I'm looking for a couple of key features: In body stabilization and eye detection. Eliminating the IS from the optical design will open a lot more doors for faster, more reliable lens designs. Not having to drive the fat glass IS will save battery power and be quieter.


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## hendrik-sg (Aug 19, 2018)

I am sure, this beautiful pic-rose guy is on someone's menue plan, otherwise the sea's would be full of them


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## MartinF. (Aug 19, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> 'R' for the EF-R lenses, with a Rear-projecting design that allows a more compact-appearing mounted lens with the standard EF mount, since part of the lens protrudes into the camera body.
> 
> Looking forward to native EF mount and small EF-R lenses with Dixie-cup rear caps.


Just like AF-S, but now for FullFrame mirrorless? - I hope you are right.


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## AlanF (Aug 19, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Well, m50 is the ugliest shit anyone can even imagine to produce. Canon made it though ...


 
For comments like these there should be a thumbs down Dislike button.


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## MartinF. (Aug 19, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> I'm sure they'd be protected by a barrel and slightly recessed like many current lenses.


the risk should not be bigger than if the flange distance was shorter - like on Sony


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## The Fat Fish (Aug 19, 2018)

My guess is the “R” stands for rip-off. It’ll be a camera that barely competes with $2000 competitions but will cost at least $3300.

Joking aside, I’m keen to see how it does. I’ve been waiting for a competitive upgrade to my original 6D for a few years now and I’m hoping this camera will be it.


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## Adelino (Aug 19, 2018)

I don't have much interest in mirrorless but I am excited to see what new tech gets rolled out in this new camera(s). I'm hoping for EF mount.


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## The Fat Fish (Aug 19, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Well, m50 is the ugliest shit anyone can even imagine to produce. Canon made it though ...


It’s very subjective but I would have to agree with you. As much as I dislike the aestehic of the M50 it’s still much more bearable than it’s 4K video implementation which might as well not exist.


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## Quackator (Aug 19, 2018)

I don't think Canon will leave all the marketing buzz of the coming Photokina to Nikon. They are very good at getting ready in time for trade fairs and big events.


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## denstore (Aug 19, 2018)

I would be perfectly happy with a scaled up M5 or M50. I find them quite nice, but a bit to small for my hands. If Canon would decide on continuing the design of the M5, I think they would be doing OK. Much better than some silly retro design, boxy uncomfortable Sony or Fujifilm lookalike.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2018)

I don't give a rat's ass what it looks like. I don't buy cameras take pictures of them, I buy cameras to use them to take pictures.


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## bokehmon22 (Aug 19, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Well, m50 is the ugliest shit anyone can even imagine to produce. Canon made it though ...



Have you look into the mirror? I kid I kid. 

Better than Sony A7 series to me. I watch a couple M50 YouTube and no one mention it's ugly. It's definitely a subjective thing.


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## Keywalker333 (Aug 19, 2018)

KeithBreazeal said:


> One of two things will happen. Canon will introduce the new FF mirrorless line and we will all say "well, is that it?" Or "Oh crap, I'm selling all my DSLRs."
> For me, I'm looking for a couple of key features: In body stabilization and eye detection. Eliminating the IS from the optical design will open a lot more doors for faster, more reliable lens designs. Not having to drive the fat glass IS will save battery power and be quieter.


Agreed. Add Canon's Vari-Angle rear display, up the dynamic range, and the mirrorless crown will fall from Sony's lofty brow.


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## denstore (Aug 19, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> I don't give a rat's ass what it looks like. I don't buy cameras take pictures of them, I buy cameras to use them to take pictures.



I believe that pleasant looking things are likely to perform better in real life use. I don’t care if a camera take perfect pictures of a wall, when mounted on a tripod. I want it to perform in my hands. I usually find that Canon cameras do that. When I tried a Sony for a while, I felt uncomfortable picking up the camera every time. It took great pictures, but it was a pain to work with.


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## Kim Bentsen (Aug 19, 2018)

16-bit sensor 'R' Us


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## Keywalker333 (Aug 19, 2018)

denstore said:


> I believe that pleasant looking things are likely to perform better in real life use. I don’t care if a camera take perfect pictures of a wall, when mounted on a tripod. I want it to perform in my hands. I usually find that Canon cameras do that. When I tried a Sony for a while, I felt uncomfortable picking up the camera every time. It took great pictures, but it was a pain to work with.


That's true for me as well. Both handling and menus are unwieldy. Waiting for Canon to out their FF mirrorless. Currently, my A7R3 is the best body to work with, IQ and performance-wise, but just barely. It is a royal pain. When IQ isn't the main concern, I reach for my M5 every time.


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## pj1974 (Aug 20, 2018)

I have spent years using a variety of different cameras, from film SLRs, film P&S to DSLRs including the 350D, 7D, , 700D, and 80D as well as mirrorless M10 and M5. This has given me clearly understood matrix of ergonomic parameters and experiences.

The 80D is the ideal size for me. The only ergonomic improvement, would be to add a thumb joystick (like the 7D), and shave off about 200-300gr of weight. The more I have used my M5, the more I appreciate its ergonomics in a small package (muscle memory being improved, etc). Though when I return to my 80D, I appreciate the more tactile and less cramped layout.

There is a place for both - the current 'DSLR shape/size' and the smaller EOS M size, in my humble opinion, particularly when one factors in the smaller EF-M lenses. E.g. when I want something small to have in my bag, my M5 or even M10 with my 15-45mm zoom or the the 22mm f/2 prime makes a great compact portable package, with very good image quality. However for longer term shooting, my 80D / 7D combination with a one of my EF/EF-S lenses does provide a more ergonomic (& responsive) package overall (e.g. the full day outdoor photo outings, or events I photograph).

I also really like the idea of Canon's new ("rumoured") mirrorless having a LP-E6N battery... I have a stack of LP-E6(N) batteries, most of them still going strong. Looking forward to Canon's offering coming up. I am sure they will provide a sensible, and well performing option / set of options.

Cheers,

PJ


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## 100 (Aug 20, 2018)

Back to R mount with a 2000mm f/11 mark II ;-)
Canon R lens mount


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## Diko (Aug 20, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> 'R' for the EF-R lenses, with a Rear-projecting design that allows a more compact-appearing mounted lens with the standard EF mount, since part of the lens protrudes into the camera body.
> 
> Looking forward to native EF mount and small EF-R lenses with Dixie-cup rear caps.


 You seem to have sound logic in your presumptions.


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## eosuser1234 (Aug 20, 2018)

so basically, the mount is the same as the EF, but the lens to sensor focal distance is more like an EF-M. You make one version that is EF-M mount, and EF, EF-S, and EF-R lens with an adaptor, and once that takes only EF mounts (all mounts). On for professionals, and one for travelers.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 20, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> I wonder which company would give us high resolution fast EVF first. Hopefully Canon would do it right.


No company is going to give it to you, you have to pay.

Beyond that, define the terms (high resolution and fast). Then you can observe which company sells them soonest.


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## Antono Refa (Aug 20, 2018)

edoorn said:


> Well, there are a whole bunch of people who would consider it much more logical if Canon would use a completely new mount, and add EF compatibility thru an adapter.



And they think Canon would use a completely new mount because...?


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## bokehmon22 (Aug 20, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> No company is going to give it to you, you have to pay.
> 
> Beyond that, define the terms (high resolution and fast). Then you can observe which company sells them soonest.


I don't mind paying for it. Sony 5.6 million resolution 240fps is a nice start


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 20, 2018)

100 said:


> Back to R mount with a 2000mm f/11 mark II ;-)
> Canon R lens mount



good good. and it'll give us a nice compatibility with a wide range of 1950-1960-ish lenses, not just 2000mm f/11.

Another guess, R stands for Retracting sensor I proposed I while ago. That is, the sensor moving in and out depending on the flange distance of the lens mounted.


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## Talys (Aug 20, 2018)

I'm going to go with R for MiRorless… because the M is already taken


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## HarryFilm (Aug 20, 2018)

pj1974 said:


> I have spent years using a variety of different cameras, from film SLRs, film P&S to DSLRs including the 350D, 7D, , 700D, and 80D as well as mirrorless M10 and M5. This has given me clearly understood matrix of ergonomic parameters and experiences.
> 
> The 80D is the ideal size for me. The only ergonomic improvement, would be to add a thumb joystick (like the 7D), and shave off about 200-300gr of weight. The more I have used my M5, the more I appreciate its ergonomics in a small package (muscle memory being improved, etc). Though when I return to my 80D, I appreciate the more tactile and less cramped layout.
> 
> ...




My experience somewhat mirrors yours but using the larger cameras. Of the 6D, 7D, 5D, 1Dc/1Dx, C100, C200, C300, C700 cameras we have here, my actual favorite is the 1D series because my hands are so large. Even the 5D series (mark 2 to mark 4) is too small for me. i NEED that large battery to feel comfortable shooting hockey, soccer (football), basketball and our industrial systems work. For the mirrorless cameras between the M50 and M5, I take the M50 because it "Feels Larger" to me in size over the M5. I have done a pro shoot on an M50 and I am VERY SURPRISED at just how good the 4K video running at 24 fps is when you use a decent 50 mm, 85mm or 135mm lens even when using a custom adapter! I personally like shooting everything MANUALLY where I do the focus, iris for primes and zooming if i'm on a zoom lens so the autofocus is not an issue I need to worry about.

I actually PREFER the image output of the M50 over the M5 as it SEEMS to give me sharper video footage. The rolling shutter issue is controllable by opening up the iris and changing your angles for action shots to mostly persons objects coming into me frontwards or directly away from me rather than side to side motion! After that, Blackmagic Resolve works WONDERS on the M50 4k video footage brightening, saturating and sharpening it to my heart's delight!

If your tool has limitations, you work WITHIN your tool's limitation or you use creative techniques to get AROUND the limitations. The M50 really doesn't have too many limitations other than more rolling shutter than my 5Dmk4/1Dc/1Dxmk2 cameras. Image quality is quite comparable if those limitations are taken into account during filming!

NOW....what I DO EXPECT from Canon is that it's new Mirrorless Full Frame camera will have some Stills and Video features (based upon my sources!) that are quite a bit more spectacular than many have surmised here. You're going to be getting a bit of a treat on about four common features coming very soon now. After that the NEXT Canon camera is where the BIG GUNS from Canon are coming out because THAT ONE is Medium Format and the REASON I KNOW that is because ANOTHER MF large sensor camera is coming out from a certain company at a certain time which will turn the Stills and Video industry UPSIDE DOWN with it's everything AND the kitchen sync feature set ;-)  stuffed into a smallish kinda-XC15-like form factor but using a DCI 8K by 6K up-to-120 fps at FULL SIZE of the MF sensor and MF lenses allowing use of the many built-in interframe and intraframe RAW/444/422/420 codecs and many image frame sizes and aspect ratios WITHOUT having to buy extra licences!

REMEMBER! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST !!!


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 20, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> After that the NEXT Canon camera is where the BIG GUNS from Canon are coming out because THAT ONE is Medium Format ............
> REMEMBER! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST !!!



Too late mate. I've already predicted it here. But people only laughed. https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...rrorless-camera-cr1.35516/page-19#post-733464

Nobody believes in these revolutionary ideas, not even Canon...


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 20, 2018)

Ah scratch all of the above. I've just realised 'R' stands for Rumored Mount.


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## weixing (Aug 20, 2018)

Hi,
I'm not sure why many think Canon will come out a new mount... Remember Canon Cinema EOS Cameras is a mirrorless camera and still using EF mount. Canon can use the space free up by the mirror box such as a drop in filter mechanism or even a built-in ND filter mechanism like those in the Cinema EOS camera.

Have a nice day.


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## edoorn (Aug 20, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> And they think Canon would use a completely new mount because...?


...because it could allow for new possibilities such as smaller light lenses, while still retain full EF compatibility thru an adapter. I'm not saying it would be the way to go, but it seems some people would not mind a new mount at all. I personally don't care much.

If they'd go with a new lens mount, I would surely appreciate full EF compatibility (a while ago we read here on CR there was a 'really nice solution'; curious what that might be) since I have 8 EF L lenses, ranging from16mm to 500mm, and am not looking forward to getting rid of that. But I would love to have some really small compact FF lenses for travelling.


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## rjbray01 (Aug 20, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



I bought a Canon M5 and sold it soon afterwards for two reasons.

1. The EVF was terrible : small, laggy and very low resolution. I couldn't bear using it.

2. I was frequently accidentally pressing the menu button whilst trying to take a picture. Almost always. 

The menu button is situated at the very bottom right of the camera.

With such a small camera there are very few ways of actually holding it and supporting it with a decent (i.e. heavy) lens.

And it turns out that when gripping the camera tightly you are quite likely to accidentally press the menu button whilst taking a shot.

This drove me totally nuts.

I am really quite astounded that Canon have continued to put such an important button in such a place .... pressing it whilst trying to compose a shot causes mayhem.

I honestly believe that this alone will be enough to sink the camera.

No doubt there are countless people who have adapted (consciously or otherwise) to this problem but I find it very, very difficult to believe that I will be in such a tiny minority that hardly anyone will hear about the problem.

Whilst I love the whole tilty-flippy thing it does seem to imply there are no buttons on the left hand side of the camera and this is a great loss I think. If they could find some way of combining the flippy screen with a column of buttons on the left that would be great ... but maybe its an either/or situation.

The resulting high density of buttons on the right comes with its own set of problems ...


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## Del Paso (Aug 20, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> No company is going to give it to you, you have to pay.
> 
> Beyond that, define the terms (high resolution and fast). Then you can observe which company sells them soonest.


I'd suggest the Leica SL, whose EVF is really excellent, even though I'd still prefer an optical (EOS) viewfinder.
But, as it's been said before, it doesn't come for free, far from it...


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## Don Haines (Aug 20, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> I bought a Canon M5 and sold it soon afterwards for two reasons.
> 
> 1. The EVF was terrible : small, laggy and very low resolution. I couldn't bear using it.
> 
> ...


yes....

I tried the SX-50 and had a similar problem.... I could not pick it up without turning on the delay timer..... Eventually I gave up


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## zim (Aug 20, 2018)

R is for Reflex 

REMEMBER! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST !!!


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## Takingshots (Aug 20, 2018)

"R" - 
Retrofit / Redesign / Remodel / Redundant : Hopefully they do not tweak minor spec changes in a different body.


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## Maximilian (Aug 20, 2018)

R = Remote = you don't need to connect the lens to the body at all


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## Mikehit (Aug 20, 2018)

It is so good it is supercalifRagilisticexpialidocious


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2018)

Maximilian said:


> R = Remote = you don't need to connect the lens to the body at all


Sony already did that.


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## amorse (Aug 20, 2018)

Wasn't the last time they used the R on the 5DS R? Wasn't that to indicate that the low pass filter was cancelled?


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 20, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> I don't mind paying for it. Sony 5.6 million resolution 240fps is a nice start


In that case I think you have your answer!


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## Maximilian (Aug 20, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sony already did that.


With a mobile!
But also with a FF body?


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## transpo1 (Aug 20, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, at least it has some good stuff on the inside....unlike some people, who regardless of their appearance have just ugly shit on the inside.



This is a disgusting response to someone’s criticism of a camera (an inanimate object) and has no place on this forum. 

Let’s keep it civil, guys.


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## clicstudio (Aug 20, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> I wonder which company would give us high resolution fast EVF first. Hopefully Canon would do it right.


Sony a7r iii has one


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## clicstudio (Aug 20, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


R for REAL


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## JBSF (Aug 20, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> My experience somewhat mirrors yours but using the larger cameras. Of the 6D, 7D, 5D, 1Dc/1Dx, C100, C200, C300, C700 cameras we have here, my actual favorite is the 1D series because my hands are so large. Even the 5D series (mark 2 to mark 4) is too small for me. i NEED that large battery to feel comfortable shooting hockey, soccer (football), basketball and our industrial systems work. For the mirrorless cameras between the M50 and M5, I take the M50 because it "Feels Larger" to me in size over the M5. I have done a pro shoot on an M50 and I am VERY SURPRISED at just how good the 4K video running at 24 fps is when you use a decent 50 mm, 85mm or 135mm lens even when using a custom adapter! I personally like shooting everything MANUALLY where I do the focus, iris for primes and zooming if i'm on a zoom lens so the autofocus is not an issue I need to worry about.
> 
> I actually PREFER the image output of the M50 over the M5 as it SEEMS to give me sharper video footage. The rolling shutter issue is controllable by opening up the iris and changing your angles for action shots to mostly persons objects coming into me frontwards or directly away from me rather than side to side motion! After that, Blackmagic Resolve works WONDERS on the M50 4k video footage brightening, saturating and sharpening it to my heart's delight!
> 
> ...




Everything we HEARD HERE FIRST has also died here.


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## transpo1 (Aug 20, 2018)

Josh Leavitt said:


> It's an interesting thought. It would certainly keep the lens sizes down. But I'd be a little nervous about damaging exposed rear elements while mounting the lens.



“R” actually stands for “Response to Nikon and Sony,” as in “we’re making a FF mirrorless because we have to.”


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 20, 2018)

clicstudio said:


> Sony a7r iii has one



Since bokehmon was asking about which camera company will package an EVF with two unqualified characteristics first, one must assume that no camera currently available has one yet, thus the A9/A7R3 EVF in this context is either not high resolution, not fast, or both.


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## Josh Leavitt (Aug 20, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> “R” actually stands for “Response to Nikon and Sony,” as in “we’re making a FF mirrorless because we have to.”



It certainly feels that way. I applaud Sony for making the huge leaps they've made with the development of the Alpha series, but I'm not convinced mirrorless is a "must-have" solution for photographers that Canikon need to follow; at this stage anyway. It has advantages undoubtedly - smaller body size, mitigation of mirror-slap effect, shorter flange distance for significant lens adaptability, and on-sensor phase-detection capability for enhanced continuous subject tracking. But battery life isn't up to DSLR potential yet, ergonomics seen in the A7 III, A7R III, and A9 still don't feel as comfortable (for me) as a 5D, 6D, or 1D, and while Canon's DPAF is the best in the business, it doesn't seem fast enough to replace their traditional double cross-type phase detection AF units in their DSLRs.

A this stage it looks like benefits of mirrorless cameras are realized by hybrid shooters, or videographers. I just don't see the game-changing benefits for dedicated stills photographers yet. But there are a few future developments that could change my mind. 1) EVFs that exceed the Leica SL in clarity and Sony A9 in refresh rate, 2) extremely fast e-shutter readout speeds (1/400th second without banding/rolling shutter artifacts), and 3) next-gen DPAF system that imitates double cross-type phase detection in terms of acquisition speed.

It might take Canon some time to develop all of that, so I just hope they keep making DSLRs until they do


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## ken (Aug 20, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Right. “R” is the key.
> It stands for 50 MP 20FPS 15 stop dynamic range with a universal shutter for about 2000 dollars.
> It’s a secret code.



They're going to use R for resolution, just like Sony, as retribution for Sony making white lenses.


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## edoorn (Aug 20, 2018)

the latest versions of the A series have, reportedly, very good battery life. I agree about the need for better ergonomics, and this is where Nikon and Canon could make the difference.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 20, 2018)

Josh Leavitt said:


> But there are a few future developments that could change my mind. 1) EVFs that exceed the Leica SL in clarity and Sony A9 in refresh rate, 2) extremely fast e-shutter readout speeds (1/400th second without banding/rolling shutter artifacts), and 3) next-gen DPAF system that imitates double cross-type phase detection in terms of acquisition speed.



1) exceed by how much?
2) faster then 1/400 is probably a matter of time (maybe two generations), although rolling shutters will always roll.
3) boy, dual cross would require what, 9 diodes per photosite? At that point I imagine there would to too many cons to that trade. Incidentally does a dual cross help acquisiton speed per se, or merely increase the chances that there is something properly oriented to detect (and also add a second level of f-stop compatibility in a single location)? If they go with clocking of the pairs by 90 degrees in adjacent photosites, given that they’re ubiquitous throughout the frame, I suspect that would close the gap created by the diagonally oriented pairs in a dedicated PDAF unit.


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 20, 2018)

Nikon is at Canon's heels already. Actually, Nikon have probably run over Canon already. At least they've released a new video with fragments of the new mirrorless. Just think about it, we don't even have an obscure video from Canon. No announcements, no video, no nothing. Not even reliable rumors. All we have is this 'R'.
While Nikon lovers are saving money for their new toy, we're digesting this 'R' here. C'mon Canon, R doesn't shoot photos!! What R you doing!!!


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## melgross (Aug 20, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Nikon is at Canon's heels already. Actually, Nikon have probably run over Canon already. At least they've released a new video with fragments of the new mirrorless. Just think about it, we don't even have an obscure video from Canon. No announcements, no video, no nothing. Not even reliable rumors. All we have is this 'R'.
> While Nikon lovers are saving money for their new toy, we're digesting this 'R' here. C'mon Canon, R doesn't shoot photos!! What R you doing!!!



That’s a good one! As Canon’s marketshare continues to move up, Nikon’s is continuing to move down.

In the grand scheme of things, a few months more or less, isn’t going to make any difference. After all, Sony has years of experience with mirrorless full frame now, and it will mean nothing a year after both Canon and Nikon come out with theirs.

Nikon has another problem, which is quality control. The past few years has not been kind to them. Their responses to these problems has been poor.

It doesn’t matter if Nikon shows product right before Photokina, or during, and Canon waits until early next year.


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## Josh Leavitt (Aug 20, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> 1) exceed by how much?



I was thinking a level of visual fidelity to rival OVFs, so maybe 7-8 million dots at 60+ FPS. I know Sony and a few other manufacturers are developing 5+ million dot EVFs at 240FPS, so it might not be too far in the future



3kramd5 said:


> 2) faster then 1/400 is probably a matter of time (maybe two generations), although rolling shutters will always roll.



I imagine so. The A9 can get up to 1/160th second before banding/rolling is seen. I guess we just need faster stacked sensor designs.



3kramd5 said:


> 3) boy, dual cross would require what, 9 diodes per photosite? At that point I imagine there would to too many cons to that trade. Incidentally does a dual cross help acquisiton speed per se, or merely increase the chances that there is something properly oriented to detect (and also add a second level of f-stop compatibility in a single location)? If they go with clocking of the pairs by 90 degrees in adjacent photosites, given that they’re ubiquitous throughout the frame, I suspect that would close the gap created by the diagonally oriented pairs in a dedicated PDAF unit.



Yeah I was thinking nine, or eight anyway. I know Canon is already working on their next-gen DPAF, so I have a feeling they're coming up with a method to incorporate expanded directional orientation in their pixels. I'm already satisfied with DPAF subject tracking, but I'd like a mode for rapid subject acquisition.


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## amorse (Aug 20, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Nikon is at Canon's heels already. Actually, Nikon have probably run over Canon already. At least they've released a new video with fragments of the new mirrorless. Just think about it, we don't even have an obscure video from Canon. No announcements, no video, no nothing. Not even reliable rumors. All we have is this 'R'.
> While Nikon lovers are saving money for their new toy, we're digesting this 'R' here. C'mon Canon, R doesn't shoot photos!! What R you doing!!!


What metric shows Nikon at Canon's heels? Technology? Sales? Satisfaction? 

Yes, Nikon is releasing teasers regularly, but frankly it's all vapourware until it's released. I think Nikon is releasing this slow trickle of rumours to keep users from transitioning to another brand before they make their release. I'd rather Canon take their time and get it right myself. 

I'm betting that Canon is trying to prevent leaks because something they're releasing may be cannon fodder (pardon the pun) for commentary from bloggers/media - i.e. topics people are passionate about which may let some down. For instance - if it is a new mount, Canon may want to control the messaging when it is announced by providing justification for that decision instead of having the collective photography community react before understanding the decision. Camera bloggers/media outlets haven't exactly been kind to Canon over the last several months, so why would Canon want to leave the messaging on their new release to them?


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## Architect1776 (Aug 20, 2018)

Joules said:


> Don't project your opinion on other people. I personally like the look of Canon's recent M cameras. They look much better than the APS-C Sonys or the retro deaign cameras to me.
> 
> Even so, my 80D looks even better so going a bit thicker with the modern design of the M50 is going the right direction for me.



I also actually like the M5/M50 look, feel and function much better than the cell phone look of Sony and the other M series Canon cameras.


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## Antono Refa (Aug 20, 2018)

edoorn said:


> ...because it could allow for new possibilities such as smaller light lenses, while still retain full EF compatibility thru an adapter. I'm not saying it would be the way to go, but it seems some people would not mind a new mount at all. I personally don't care much.



It can be done without a new mount as well, e.g. EOS-M for which the 'adapter' is merely an extension tube.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 20, 2018)

Josh Leavitt said:


> I was thinking a level of visual fidelity to rival OVFs, so maybe 7-8 million dots at 60+ FPS. I know Sony and a few other manufacturers are developing 5+ million dot EVFs at 240FPS, so it might not be too far in the future.



Wouldn’t magnified display size be a factor in that rather than just total spacial resolution (i.e. consider dots per inch)?

Sony is more than developing one, they have a samples available now with full rate production starting in a few months. Part number is ECX399A.

Personally, I have found that extended use of EVFs tends to hurt my eyes. Hopefully something can be done on that front. I’ve used the a7r3, and to me it’s mostly fine from a clarity and speed standpoint.



Josh Leavitt said:


> I imagine so. The A9 can get up to 1/160th second before banding/rolling is seen. I guess we just need faster stacked sensor designs.



Or global readout.



Josh Leavitt said:


> Yeah I was thinking nine, or eight anyway. I know Canon is already working on their next-gen DPAF, so I have a feeling they're coming up with a method to incorporate expanded directional orientation in their pixels. I'm already satisfied with DPAF subject tracking, but I'd like a mode for rapid subject acquisition.


Yah 8 would do it, but then what goes in the middle? 


They are 

Canon is indeed working on that expansion: they have two patents, I believe, one for quads per diode, and one which rotates the pairs in adjacent sites.


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## AcaPixus (Aug 20, 2018)

Not that I have kept many FD lenses myself, but this may revive full-frame digital life for those who still have FD gems in the drawers  Surely, if not Canon, then someone else will produce an EF-R to FD adapter. In fact, full frame adapters may be available for any full frame lens mount, given they keep the flange distance short enough.


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## peterzuehlke (Aug 20, 2018)

I understand the concern for the new mirrorless Canon full frame camera's lens mount, especially those of us with CPS Gold status plus worth of kit around (and a few FD mounts too, argh), but the big reason I went Sony for my mirrorless (a6500) was IBIS, which opens up a whole field of good non-stabilized lenses. (along with eye AF, silent shooting and video features). That's got to be a big decision for Canon with all that IS glass they want to sell to us.


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 20, 2018)

amorse said:


> What metric shows Nikon at Canon's heels? Technology? Sales? Satisfaction?



In terms of announcements/marketing. And perhaps in terms of the tech as there's a very high chance Nikon releases their FF mirrorless earlier than Canon.



amorse said:


> Camera bloggers/media outlets haven't exactly been kind to Canon over the last several months, so why would Canon want to leave the messaging on their new release to them?



Canon would have been leaving messaging to vbloggers had they been 'leaking' information to them or right on this site. Had they been released an official trailer, they'd have had control over what and how they want to sell their new gear.

But I'm more pragmatic actually. I expect some message from Canon to me as a customer with some EF L lenses. What would be the [resale] value of my gear? Does it make sense to invest in more EF glass? Or say a 1.4x EF extender?


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## FramerMCB (Aug 20, 2018)

I'm just as excited to see how the new Nikon's spec-out... Fun times!


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## cnc (Aug 20, 2018)

R for Russian spec.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> But I'm more pragmatic actually. I expect some message from Canon to me as a customer with some EF L lenses. What would be the [resale] value of my gear? Does it make sense to invest in more EF glass? Or say a 1.4x EF extender?


Why do you expect that from Canon? If someone believes a FF MILC with a new mount that accepts EF lenses via a mount adapter, along with continued updates and sales of DSLRs, along with the fact that EF-M did not meaningfully affect EF-S, all somehow means that EF is knocking at death's door...that someone is unlikely to be reassured by 'some message from Canon'.


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 20, 2018)

Don't worry, my very special contacts allow me to satisfy everybody's needs here. The design of the new L, not R (that was only camouflage), mirrorLess FF series of Canon will be not only very clean, but also cover a revolutionary new modular system. It allows users to easily decompose it completely, smuggle it as unsuspected Lego blocks to all places where cameras are not allowed, and recompose it quickly. With every copy purchased, Canon will offer a special training that enables users to do this in pitch-black darkness within three minutes. This completely new camera system will stuff Sonikoneica mouthes for the next decade, since Canon's labs already work on the next generation: completely self-organizing camera modules using supramolecular chemistry. 

And here ... (fanfares) ... we proudly present Canon's new mirrorless full frame modular L series:


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## Mikehit (Aug 20, 2018)

Too small.


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## bokehmon22 (Aug 20, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Since bokehmon was asking about which camera company will package an EVF with two unqualified characteristics first, one must assume that no camera currently available has one yet, thus the A9/A7R3 EVF in this context is either not high resolution, not fast, or both.


Yup A7RIII is still lag for me not to mention the ergonomic, menu, etc is a no


3kramd5 said:


> In that case I think you have your answer!



Nope. Not sure when these will arrive in their FF mirrorless. Canon & Nikon might beat Sony to it. Beside I prefer Nikon/Canon ergonomic more.


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## melgross (Aug 20, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> Don't worry, my very special contacts allow me to satisfy everybody's needs here. The design of the new L, not R (that was only camouflage), mirrorLess FF series of Canon will be not only very clean, but also cover a revolutionary new modular system. It allows users to easily decompose it completely, smuggle it as unsuspected Lego blocks to all places where cameras are not allowed, and recompose it quickly. With every copy purchased, Canon will offer a special training that enables users to do this in pitch-black darkness within three minutes. This completely new camera system will stuff Sonikoneica mouthes for the next decade, since Canon's labs already work on the next generation: completely self-organizing camera modules using supramolecular chemistry.
> 
> And here ... (fanfares) ... we proudly present Canon's new mirrorless full frame modular L series:
> View attachment 179780


That’s actually very close to what I expect it to look like.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 20, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> Nope. Not sure when these will arrive in their FF mirrorless. Canon & Nikon might beat Sony to it.



Yes I was being a bit flippant by taking your first post literally, i.e. which company will provide the desired EVF first without an unstated requirement that it be in a camera (let alone a full frame one).

Nikon is likely releasing too soon to get that Sony EVF you refer to with its upcoming cameras (presumably they’re in production now, before the EVF is in production). Of course maybe they have another source for an acceptable unit.


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## Allen (Aug 20, 2018)

The new camera will take the current Canon EF lenses. No adapter needed like Nikon. Nikon had to increase their lens mount size in order to have faster larger lenses in the future. Hence a adapter will be needed for Nikon's new camera if you want to use your older Nikon lenses.
Canon has a leg up on Nikon because every Canon EF lens out there will work from day 1.
The new Canon may be announced sooner than you think. They will let Nikon have their day this Thursday, then give Nikon a couple weeks to gloat. 
Look for some noise from Canon in the first part of September.


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## pj1974 (Aug 21, 2018)

There have been a few posts after my earlier contribution, where I shared my experience of having and using Canon's M5.
A few observations to note and aspects to share (very conscious from my own perspective):
1) Ergonomics is very subjective. Based on many factors, including handsize, preferences, other physical characteristics, etc. What works for one, may not necessarily work for another. I have average size male hands (for a middle aged Caucasian male).
2) Some people learn / adapt and are both better & quicker at developing muscle memory than others. I have used film cameras, then early model Fuji and Kodak digital P&S. Then Canon DSLRs, and added Canon mirrorless to the mix. I have adapted to each.
3) I believe I will always feel that a camera the size of around my Canon 80D is more of a natural fit than a M5. a bit smaller than the 80D could work, and slightly larger also (e.g. I also own the 7D which is notably larger / heavier, but still comfortable... and I really appreciate the thumb joystick)
4) In terms of ergonomics, the 80D is a significant step up from my Canon 350D. The 350D's grip in particular is frustratingly cramped. But the 350D still feels way better than most P&S cameras. The M5 is a step up from my M10. The lack of any real grip on the M10 is a shame, but understandable. Plus it keeps the camera / lens combination small and light. However the M5 with a compact lens (e.g. 22mm f/2 or 15-45mm zoom) is very portable and light.
5) The Canon M mirrorless bodies DO fit a specific niche / area, e.g. with the smaller / more compact / lighter lenses. I do not intend to use my current mirrorless cameras (M5 or M10) with larger EF/EF-S lenses much at all, i.e. via the adapter. I rather use my DSLRs (mainly 80D and 7D) for larger lenses e.g. my 70-300mm L, my 100mm L, Sigma 8-16mm or my 15-85mm lens.
6) I hope that Canon might produce one (or more) EOS-M (mirrorless) APS-C models, which are a larger camera body- e.g. somewhere in the size range of the 800D / 77D / 80D. I also hope that Canon's FF mirrorless will incorporate a lot of great existing technology (e.g. DPAF) with some potential improvements (e.g. improved battery life, improved initial acquisition and tracking, low-light work)
7) Lenses! The existing APS-C EOM lenses are great quality - in terms of image quality and size/weight/build quality. The existing lenses are very good in terms of IQ (sharpness, contrast, IS, AF speed and accuracy). I would look forward to some new/more lenses soon (obviously also those more suited to FF too).
8) Canon is smart. Their market share and history demonstrates that. Canon will likely produce a solidly producing FF mirrorless camera with reliable and very well implemented feature, that will sell well and be used by many happy photographers and videographers.
Regards, 
PJ


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## HarryFilm (Aug 21, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Too late mate. I've already predicted it here. But people only laughed. https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...rrorless-camera-cr1.35516/page-19#post-733464
> 
> Nobody believes in these revolutionary ideas, not even Canon...



---

Sorry, but the new camera kind looks and feels rather good sitting on my desk RIGHT NOW! It's kinda hard to argue when I'm seeing and feeling the final result IN MY HANDS AT THIS VERY MOMENT! Oooooohhhhhh! I wish I could upload some photos and video right now...!!!! This IS SWEEEEEEEET! FULL DCI 8K x 6k up to 60 fps and DCI 4k/5k video at up to 120 fps at multiple aspect ratios, MULTIPLE RAW/444/422/420 interframe AND intraframe codecs with NO extra licence fees. 25 fps 50 Megapixel stills burst at 444 RAW and 444/422 JPEG2000 ... 6.8 microns sensor sites...WHAT A LUMA AND LOW NOISE RESPONSE !!! This IS TRULY the Beast Camera from $$$$$$$$ with F1.4 and even F1.2 prime lenses and big zooms RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE! This IS ASBOLUTELY AN UNTOUCHABLE COMBINED video and stills camera! And it's coming a lot sooner than you think at a price point that will jolt the industry like a wild bronco !!!!!!!!


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 21, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> Sorry, but the new camera kind looks and feels rather good sitting on my desk RIGHT NOW! It's kinda hard to argue when I'm seeing and feeling the final result IN MY HANDS AT THIS VERY MOMENT! Oooooohhhhhh! I wish I could upload some photos and video right now...!!!! This IS SWEEEEEEEET! FULL DCI 8K x 6k up to 60 fps and DCI 4k/5k video at up to 120 fps at multiple aspect ratios, MULTIPLE RAW/444/422/420 interframe AND intraframe codecs with NO extra licence fees. 25 fps 50 Megapixel stills burst at 444 RAW and 444/422 JPEG2000 ... 6.8 microns sensor sites...WHAT A LUMA AND LOW NOISE RESPONSE !!! This IS TRULY the Beast Camera from $$$$$$$$ with F1.4 and even F1.2 prime lenses and big zooms RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE! This IS ASBOLUTELY AN UNTOUCHABLE COMBINED video and stills camera! And it's coming a lot sooner than you think at a price point that will jolt the industry like a wild bronco !!!!!!!!



Ok noted. Thanks!


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## degos (Aug 21, 2018)

pj1974 said:


> There is a place for both - the current 'DSLR shape/size' and the smaller EOS M size, in my humble opinion, particularly when one factors in the smaller EF-M lenses.



I'm surprised you boiled it down to just two sizes, since you've also used the 7D which is considerably bulkier than the 80D. There's also the 1D size, which personally I find the best hand-holdable size for prolonged use. It's actually more comfortable than a gripped 7D for me because the curves all fall in just the right place.

So personally I'd want any FF mirrorless to be 7D-sized minimum.

And can we please get rid of that stupid mode-dial? What a waste of space on a 21st-century device.


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 21, 2018)

degos said:


> I'm surprised you boiled it down to just two sizes, since you've also used the 7D which is considerably bulkier than the 80D. There's also the 1D size, which personally I find the best hand-holdable size for prolonged use. It's actually more comfortable than a gripped 7D for me because the curves all fall in just the right place.
> 
> So personally I'd want any FF mirrorless to be 7D-sized minimum.
> 
> And can we please get rid of that stupid mode-dial? What a waste of space on a 21st-century device.



I love the mode dial, it's one of the proofs that some hands-on 20th century technology can be much quicker than swiping through endless menus. Click, turn, ready. 

The latest FF ML cameras such as recent Sonys and the Leica SL are well on the way to meet your requirements. Pretty sure that the next generations will be even bulkier than classic DLSRs, because of all the stuff included for better marketing. Sony, e.g., could come up with a built-in 5-axis-stabilized beverage can refrigerator - and of course an electronic assistant like Alexa yelling at you if you shoot faces without a smile, playing your most hated songs without asking you for permission, talking permanently about the latest products Sony wants to sell you and suddenly exploding in strange laughters when nobody expects it. 

Leica, on the other hand, may present new purist SL models stripped down to nearly nothing (no LCD screen) , but nevertheless with a bigger than ever Bauhaus brick-like form factor.


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 21, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Too small.


If you mean my post about the real ML FF from Canon I should mention that you can have it in a Lego Duplo version.


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## SaP34US (Aug 21, 2018)

How much larger is the FF going to be vs the M5 so button could be located in better possibly?


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## pj1974 (Aug 21, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> If you mean my post about the real ML FF from Canon I should mention that you can have it in a Lego Duplo version.



Ha ha... good one! 

Especially as I have been playing with Duplo with a certain little person in my house (and cleaning up Lego recently)

Yeah... Lego 'standard' size vs 'Lego Duplo size'. I like the analogy


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## pj1974 (Aug 21, 2018)

degos said:


> I'm surprised you boiled it down to just two sizes, since you've also used the 7D which is considerably bulkier than the 80D. There's also the 1D size, which personally I find the best hand-holdable size for prolonged use. It's actually more comfortable than a gripped 7D for me because the curves all fall in just the right place.
> 
> So personally I'd want any FF mirrorless to be 7D-sized minimum.
> 
> And can we please get rid of that stupid mode-dial? What a waste of space on a 21st-century device.



I was categorising size in two groups (apologies if that was unclear, I should have written "sizes" to make that clearer).
So yes, the DSLR size*s* and the current mirrorless (APS-C) size*s *are both valid sizes.

Personally, the 80D is closest to the ideal size and shape for me.. but anything from a 700D to a 7D works reasonably well for me.

I have used Canon's 1D series cameras, and I find them too large and uncomfortable, and I have never had trouble shooting portraits for hours and hours on end with a single grip. (I do agree that the built in grip of the 1D is superior to the added / screw on grip of single grip DSLRs though).

Like many other users, I prefer the mode dial... to other options. I can switch between modes much quicker than using a menu. Granted, there can be other means to change (e.g. customisable buttons) - but the mode dial, particularly with custom modes (I would love 5 or more custom modes, and get rid of, or being able to program over the 'basic' &/or scenes modes)

I do hope (& expect) Canon will be meeting a number of different customer base needs, with a variety of mirrorless models and options in the near future. Canon have done their homework: market research, product testing, ergonomic designing and so much more. They are, and will be ready. And we are all the better for it. Competition is a good thing! So is innovation. 

Cheers,

PJ


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## SaP34US (Aug 21, 2018)

pj1974 said:


> There have been a few posts after my earlier contribution, where I shared my experience of having and using Canon's M5.
> A few observations to note and aspects to share (very conscious from my own perspective):
> 1) Ergonomics is very subjective. Based on many factors, including handsize, preferences, other physical characteristics, etc. What works for one, may not necessarily work for another. I have average size male hands (for a middle aged Caucasian male).
> 2) Some people learn / adapt and are both better & quicker at developing muscle memory than others. I have used film cameras, then early model Fuji and Kodak digital P&S. Then Canon DSLRs, and added Canon mirrorless to the mix. I have adapted to each.
> ...


That would be great. I think it the cameras both the larger M series and the FF cameras should have great egronamics and come in Black, Brown and Khaki bodies with accents in Black, Sliver, and Gold with all three body colors.


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## zim (Aug 21, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> Sorry, but the new camera kind looks and feels rather good sitting on my desk RIGHT NOW! It's kinda hard to argue when I'm seeing and feeling the final result IN MY HANDS AT THIS VERY MOMENT! Oooooohhhhhh! I wish I could upload some photos and video right now...!!!! This IS SWEEEEEEEET! FULL DCI 8K x 6k up to 60 fps and DCI 4k/5k video at up to 120 fps at multiple aspect ratios, MULTIPLE RAW/444/422/420 interframe AND intraframe codecs with NO extra licence fees. 25 fps 50 Megapixel stills burst at 444 RAW and 444/422 JPEG2000 ... 6.8 microns sensor sites...WHAT A LUMA AND LOW NOISE RESPONSE !!! This IS TRULY the Beast Camera from $$$$$$$$ with F1.4 and even F1.2 prime lenses and big zooms RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE! This IS ASBOLUTELY AN UNTOUCHABLE COMBINED video and stills camera! And it's coming a lot sooner than you think at a price point that will jolt the industry like a wild bronco !!!!!!!!



Tell you what Harry, take a dated photo, DON'T upload it, after your nda has expired post it up


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## unfocused (Aug 21, 2018)

zim said:


> Tell you what Harry, take a dated photo, DON'T upload it, after your nda has expired post it up


Harry's lies aren't even amusing anymore.


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## clicstudio (Aug 22, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Since bokehmon was asking about which camera company will package an EVF with two unqualified characteristics first, one must assume that no camera currently available has one yet, thus the A9/A7R3 EVF in this context is either not high resolution, not fast, or both.


it is fast and high res. there are specific settings for the EVF on the Alpha. I own one so I know.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 22, 2018)

clicstudio said:


> it is fast and high res. there are specific settings for the EVF on the Alpha. I own one so I know.



The problem with “fast” and “high res” is that they’re subjective terms, hence my quoted post.

A9 and A7Riii don’t meet the quoted poster’s threshold of high res or fast; it was later stated that ~5 million dots and 240Hz would. The current alphas don’t do that despite settings, which incidentally let you choose between full speed or full resolution. Even if it let you choose full speed and full resolution, both would be below threshold.


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## TAF (Aug 22, 2018)

SaP34US said:


> That would be great. I think it the cameras both the larger M series and the FF cameras should have great egronamics and come in Black, Brown and Khaki bodies with accents in Black, Sliver, and Gold with all three body colors.



Does anyone remember the olive drab F-1 from the 1970's? I always wanted one of those...


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## TAF (Aug 22, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> Sorry, but the new camera kind looks and feels rather good sitting on my desk RIGHT NOW! It's kinda hard to argue when I'm seeing and feeling the final result IN MY HANDS AT THIS VERY MOMENT! Oooooohhhhhh! I wish I could upload some photos and video right now...!!!! This IS SWEEEEEEEET! FULL DCI 8K x 6k up to 60 fps and DCI 4k/5k video at up to 120 fps at multiple aspect ratios, MULTIPLE RAW/444/422/420 interframe AND intraframe codecs with NO extra licence fees. 25 fps 50 Megapixel stills burst at 444 RAW and 444/422 JPEG2000 ... 6.8 microns sensor sites...WHAT A LUMA AND LOW NOISE RESPONSE !!! This IS TRULY the Beast Camera from $$$$$$$$ with F1.4 and even F1.2 prime lenses and big zooms RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE! This IS ASBOLUTELY AN UNTOUCHABLE COMBINED video and stills camera! And it's coming a lot sooner than you think at a price point that will jolt the industry like a wild bronco !!!!!!!!




I'm guessing that would be the one I saw at Mystic a few months ago, which looked like an EOS-M on steroids, a viewfinder bump that was 2/3 the width of the camera, and which clearly had an EF mount because it had a 70-200 F4 on it that looked entirely appropriately sized.

Sort of a modern take on the original Canon rangefinder camera, without the rangefinder ports on the front.

Right?


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 22, 2018)

TAF said:


> Sort of a modern take on the original Canon rangefinder camera, without the rangefinder ports on the front.
> 
> Right?



The nice thing about an original Canon 7 or P from early 50s/60s is that their viewfinders provide about infinite dots with infinite FPS with a near to zero lag (only limited by the velocity of light) - without the need of any battery ;-) So they were far ahead of today's ML technology, also because they forced photographers to train their eye and imagination. You had to use your brain, not the chimping button, and with 36 images on a film (or 12 on a roll of 120 film) you shot much more carefully ... that's btw one of the reasons why I started shoot again film in parallel to digital photography (I am no purist, I like both worlds).

That said, I am pretty sure that Canon will not jump on the retro look train for their "R" series - even they could link them to the beautiful rangefinders they used to make. But Canon seems always to strive for modern ergonomics, fortunately. Retro look is fake, because it breaks the classic rule of good industrial design that form follows function. A digital camera is a computer connected with a light sensor, so it should not look like a vintage camera.


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## Valvebounce (Aug 22, 2018)

AlanF said:


> For comments like these there should be a thumbs down Dislike button.


Hi Alan, there is, it’s labled report!

Cheers, Graham.


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## TAF (Aug 24, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> The nice thing about an original Canon 7 or P from early 50s/60s is that their viewfinders provide about infinite dots with infinite FPS with a near to zero lag (only limited by the velocity of light) - without the need of any battery ;-) So they were far ahead of today's ML technology, also because they forced photographers to train their eye and imagination. You had to use your brain, not the chimping button, and with 36 images on a film (or 12 on a roll of 120 film) you shot much more carefully ... that's btw one of the reasons why I started shoot again film in parallel to digital photography (I am no purist, I like both worlds).
> 
> That said, I am pretty sure that Canon will not jump on the retro look train for their "R" series - even they could link them to the beautiful rangefinders they used to make. But Canon seems always to strive for modern ergonomics, fortunately. Retro look is fake, because it breaks the classic rule of good industrial design that form follows function. A digital camera is a computer connected with a light sensor, so it should not look like a vintage camera.




I am not suggesting that Canon's new FF-ML is retro per se; I was trying (unsuccessfully, it appears) to provide a description that would make sense to most folks.

Let me try again.

Take an EOS-M. Enlarge it so that it is about the size (ht, width) of an SL-1 or Rebel. But keep the box like shape. Put a thin finger 'grip' on it like the EOS-M has.

Now, put a flat topped bump on the top of the body that is 2/3 the width of the body. Imagine taking the pentprism and smushing it down so it spreads out wider, but not as tall. But it retains the rounded sloped sides as it transitions into the body. It was centered on the body, unlike most rangefinder cameras.

But I liken it to a 1950's rangefinder camera so you can picture the sort of shape; in the 50's, the rangefinder hump was flat sided where it went into the body, in this case it is smoothly curved. But otherwise, not too far off conceptually.

This is the body I saw with a 70-200 attached to it.

I did not see the back, so I have no idea what the LCD screen or rear controls looked like. And my very brief glance at the top only registered in my mind the Canon text, not the dial or hotshoe, or anything else.

Oh, and maybe the "R" stands for "Rangefinder".


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## clicstudio (Aug 24, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> The problem with “fast” and “high res” is that they’re subjective terms, hence my quoted post.
> 
> A9 and A7Riii don’t meet the quoted poster’s threshold of high res or fast; it was later stated that ~5 million dots and 240Hz would. The current alphas don’t do that despite settings, which incidentally let you choose between full speed or full resolution. Even if it let you choose full speed and full resolution, both would be below threshold.


At first I hated the EVF. Now I can't think of going back to an optical one. It works very well.


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2018)

Mirrorless has several advantages over mirrored bodies, just like mirrored has advantages over mirrorless.

They are both tools. You use the appropriate tool to do the job. If I am a sport photographer and want to get a shot of the instant the soccer ball is deflected by the netminder, then I want my mirrorless camera with it's 120FPS burst mode..... If I am out there shooting at night, I want my optical viewfinder.... for everything in between those two extremes, it really does not matter.

Right now, we are well past the point where the lens you pick will have way more impact on your shot than the camera you pick......


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## copernic24 (Aug 24, 2018)

What's the point of a Rumor Site on a brand which does not create any really new product?
I am also considering switching to ? Suggestions, any body ?


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2018)

copernic24 said:


> What's the point of a Rumor Site on a brand which does not create any really new product?
> I am also considering switching to ? Suggestions, any body ?



If you want cutting edge, go Panasonic.

All Canon has to offer is reliability, lens and accessory selection, great service, and stability.....


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2018)

copernic24 said:


> What's the point of a Rumor Site on a brand which does not create any really new product?
> I am also considering switching to ? Suggestions, any body ?


I recommend that you switch to sonyalpharumors.com, although you could also switch to nikonrumors.com. It’s great to be a rumor consumer these days, there are so many websites from which to choose.


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## ken (Aug 24, 2018)

copernic24 said:


> What's the point of a Rumor Site on a brand which does not create any really new product?
> I am also considering switching to ? Suggestions, any body ?



What system are you switching from, and what are your reasons for switching? What are your needs? It's impossible to respond in a meaningful way to your question without more information. I'd say you should consider reading reviews and then renting any system you're considering switching to before buying. That's going to answer your question way more than asking on a forum for a manufacturer that you seem to be moving away from. 

I have a strong interest in a FF mirrorless camera body myself. But I plan to wait to see what Canon eventually offers, because I have been thoroughly pleased with the products I have purchased from them in the past. If they come up short, I'll have to consider all the tradeoffs with whatever other FF systems are on the market at that time. The entire ecosystem (lenses, speedlites, etc.) has to be considered. 

Speaking for myself, the rate of a company's new product lines isn't much of a concern for me as a consumer. It doesn't alter the quality of what I already own in any way. In fact, if the product lines change too rapidly, you might want to consider what that means for long-term support of a camera if the vendor stops making it after only 2 years from launch.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 24, 2018)

clicstudio said:


> At first I hated the EVF. Now I can't think of going back to an optical one. It works very well.


I used an a7rii along side my canon SLRs for a couple years. I mostly liked it, but found that with extended use it hurt my eyes.


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 24, 2018)

TAF said:


> Oh, and maybe the "R" stands for "Rangefinder".


 
A classic rangefinder digitally reloaded would surprise me, because that involves a lot of fine mechanics. Today, the production of such cameras would be quite costly. Leica's rangefinders are expensive, and Nikons remake of the S3 in the 2000s was also. Nikon had a lot of technical trouble with reviving this camera btw, if I remember correctly. Maybe today a part of the assembly of the mechanics could be automized with robots, in the days back it were done by low-paid women with petite fingers.

I am pretty sure that Canon will come up with a modern EVF ML body instead of plunging in such an economical adventure - much easier to assemble. If they stick with in-lens IS the body can be kept as mechanically simple as the first Sony A7 series. With the advancement of electronic shutters such a camera would be even more simple in the future.


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> I recommend that you switch to sonyalpharumors.com, although you could also switch to nikonrumors.com. It’s great to be a rumor consumer these days, there are so many websites from which to choose.


You could also try 43rumors.com, but it isn’t as big as canonrumors, only a quarter the size and in a different format


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## TAF (Aug 24, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> A classic rangefinder digitally reloaded would surprise me, because that involves a lot of fine mechanics. Today, the production of such cameras would be quite costly. Leica's rangefinders are expensive, and Nikons remake of the S3 in the 2000s was also. Nikon had a lot of technical trouble with reviving this camera btw, if I remember correctly. Maybe today a part of the assembly of the mechanics could be automized with robots, in the days back it were done by low-paid women with petite fingers.
> 
> I am pretty sure that Canon will come up with a modern EVF ML body instead of plunging in such an economical adventure - much easier to assemble. If they stick with in-lens IS the body can be kept as mechanically simple as the first Sony A7 series. With the advancement of electronic shutters such a camera would be even more simple in the future.




You are perhaps being a bit too literal.

If I was developing a modern ML camera that in the end would look like a classic rangefinder updated with modern industrial design, I might very well nickname it the Rangefinder in homage to my company roots.

I saw a camera in the wild that was unlike anything Canon admits to. I am merely trying to describe it, and perhaps make some sense of the rumor we've been presented.

I am NOT describing or suggesting a classic split image rangefinder. It's not a Leica...

Repeat, NOT a rangefinder in the classic sense.

Just the shape is clearly reminiscent of those marvelous cameras of old...but just reminiscent, not a copy.

Although, when one considers how DPAF works, it is the electronic equivalent of the opto-mechnical split image rangefinder.

And that split image is a very effective tool for presenting in and out of focus. It wouldn't be a bad paradigm for presentation in the EVF.


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## RGF (Aug 25, 2018)

R stands for re-used. They will reuse one of their old sensor (such as the 5DM4 or 5DS). Could be an interesting introduction or just a reworked old camera - lipstick on a pig. We will know more next month.

Wonder how Canon is feeling now that Nikon introduced the Z6 and Z7? It would be nice to be able to sit in (with a translator) on the exec meetings.


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## Kit. (Aug 25, 2018)

RGF said:


> Wonder how Canon is feeling now that Nikon introduced the Z6 and Z7? It would be nice to be able to sit in (with a translator) on the exec meetings.


I don't think laughter needs a translator.


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## Don Haines (Aug 25, 2018)

Kit. said:


> I don't think laughter needs a translator.


Those two cameras are pre production models..... I would expect a lot of those flaws to be gone before the official release...... that said, Canon would never have passed out such buggy betas for evaluation.....


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 25, 2018)

TAF said:


> You are perhaps being a bit too literal.
> 
> 
> I am NOT describing or suggesting a classic split image rangefinder. It's not a Leica...
> ...



Well, I think this is a discussion about nothing. DPAF is - like any version of phase detection AF - of course based on the rangefinder principle (trigonometry). So you could call all (D)SLRs and Canon's new DPAF sensor systems "rangefinder", but in fact, it doesn't tell anything. You also could call any camera a pinhole camera or camera obscura, because all modern cameras are descendants of this basic principle. But "pinhole" doesn't sound fancy, "rangefinder" does (again).


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