# Canon EOS R5 Specifications



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 28, 2020)

> *Canon EOS R5 Specifications:*
> 
> *Named the Canon EOS R5*
> *45mp full-frame CMOS sensor*
> ...



Continue reading...


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## ritholtz (Jan 28, 2020)

Seriously.. I need cheap RF lens. Outdoing Sony in high end no mirror gear.


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## J.NicDavidson (Jan 28, 2020)

Take my money now please!


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## DrToast (Jan 28, 2020)

Those specs are insane.


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## Drcampbellicu (Jan 28, 2020)

About time canon
2020 is gonna be a good year

and for the boomers that don’tthink mirrorless is the future well...


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## tron (Jan 28, 2020)

"unless the whole world has conspired to troll us"

OR, they just learned this rumor from this site and spread it 

I guess in that case they will all point to CR as the source!   

EDIT: They will sell it as a kit with the new 50mm 1.4 IS  (CR0)


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## OremLK (Jan 28, 2020)

Looks like a monster. I wonder if there will be a pixel shift high resolution mode since it has IBIS?


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## tron (Jan 28, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> About time canon
> 2020 is gonna be a good year
> 
> and for the boomers that don’tthink mirrorless is the future well...


It depends on Canon. If they do not give us new equivalent DSLR bodies or not. Not on the mirrorless feature per se. I would choose a high megapixel DSLR over a mirrorless one to use with my big whites but Canon may not give me or other the choice.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

The pixel density is too low to replace a 7D Mark II for long-reach applications (17MP in APS-c mode) and no information about the usability of the viewfinder (I find all Sony's and both Canon's to be unusable, so whether or not I ever switch away from SLRs depends heavily on this point).


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## blackcoffee17 (Jan 28, 2020)

These specs don't look realistic to me. The 4K 120fps is not like Canon at all, same for the 12/20fps.


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## josephandrews222 (Jan 28, 2020)

...wow. The IBIS alone is wonderful news.


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## tron (Jan 28, 2020)

What no GPS???? Getting it from a smartphone with Canon Camera Connect is an option but not fail proof. Of course bluetooth spends much less battery than GPS so maybe this is the reason.


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## fox40phil (Jan 28, 2020)

IF this is will be a real camera.... it will be mindblowing .... no more words needed ...


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## Tom W (Jan 28, 2020)

Well, I think I'm going to start saving some money for this one. Sounds like it could be a dream, depending on the sensor's capabilities.


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Jan 28, 2020)

8K?! 120fps at 4k?! 

No way, not happening.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 28, 2020)

Great, but damn, I did not expect to be waiting until July for this. I just sold a spare EOS R on the expectation that something new would be here by March, and the values of EOS Rs would start to take a dive. Kinda wish I had hung onto that camera now.


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## BadHorse (Jan 28, 2020)

Does the EOS R not have a wheel around the back that circles the directional-pad/cross-keys? In the manual for my 70D this is referred to as the "Quick Control Dial" and I use it all the time. Does this rumor imply it's making a come-back or is there some other scroll wheel?


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## Mars1954 (Jan 28, 2020)

NO mention here of dual card slots! should we just assume that it will have them?


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## jam05 (Jan 28, 2020)

Sure seems like a 5D mirrorless version to me. And early July shipment sure fits the bill. Would most likely get a lot of pre orders prior to opening ceremonies for many that chose to replace their 5Dmk 4 with mirrorless, especially if toting that CFespress card


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Jan 28, 2020)

Definitely trolled.


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## jam05 (Jan 28, 2020)

Mars1954 said:


> NO mention here of dual card slots! should we just assume that it will have them?


That would pretty much be a given for this model at this time.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> 8K?! 120fps at 4k?!
> 
> No way, not happening.



I can't imagine that's anything but time-lapse. No way this thing has the power to capture that real-time.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 28, 2020)

BadHorse said:


> Does the EOS R not have a wheel around the back that circles the directional-pad/cross-keys? In the manual for my 70D this is referred to as the "Quick Control Dial" and I use it all the time. Does this rumor imply it's making a come-back or is there some other scroll wheel?


Nope, no wheel around the D-pad. *However*, the EOS R has an additional wheel on the top/rear corner that no DSLRs have that essentially does everything the wheel around the D-pad does on DSLRs that have it. So the wheel is really more relocated on the R rather than totally removed.


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## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

It's wonderful stills specs.....I'll just smile and allow the video/hybrid people battle this one out while I patiently await the release.


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## navastronia (Jan 28, 2020)

These specs are wild. Estimated price? $4.5K?


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## mpmark (Jan 28, 2020)

For me this is very exciting news, dont care for video but the specs for stills is quite impressive, my 5Div replacement it seems. I will be getting one if these specs are close to the final answer.


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## frozengogo (Jan 28, 2020)

To late for Hawaii, jut in time for Rainier. Yeah!!


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## mpmark (Jan 28, 2020)

Mars1954 said:


> NO mention here of dual card slots! should we just assume that it will have them?



With these kind of specs I would assume yes, I think there was an earlier mention of CFExpress and SD, which would make sense of how Canon have done it for the 5D line


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## melbournite (Jan 28, 2020)

"Scroll wheel added to the back"

That's enough to get me interested! Maybe the body size is slightly bigger than the original, that would be ok.


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## pulseimages (Jan 28, 2020)

Will the IBIS work with the EF Adapter as in I wouldn’t have to replace my EF 100 2.8 Macro with the L version to obtain IS with the Canon’s Mirrorless camera? That would be ideal!


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## addola (Jan 28, 2020)

I am excited about IBIS & the new battery. Hopefully IBIS will be on par with Olympus & Panasonic. It says that the battery is compatible with 5D IV, which is the LP-E6N battery, hopefully they increase the battery capacity.


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## navastronia (Jan 28, 2020)

pulseimages said:


> Will the IBIS work with the EF Adapter as in I wouldn’t have to replace my EF 100 2.8 Macro with the L version to obtain IS with the Canon’s Mirrorless camera? That would be ideal!



I'm gonna go ahead and answer "probably."


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 28, 2020)

pulseimages said:


> Will the IBIS work with the EF Adapter as in I wouldn’t have to replace my EF 100 2.8 Macro with the L version to obtain IS with the Canon’s Mirrorless camera? That would be ideal!


Well on the Sonys, IBIS worked even when adapting Canon lenses onto them. (At least the basic IBIS function, not sure about the crazy pixel shift thing.) So it would be pretty lame for IBIS to only work on native RF lenses on Canon's camera.


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## -pekr- (Jan 28, 2020)

mpmark said:


> For me this is very exciting news, dont care for video but the specs for stills is quite impressive, my 5Div replacement it seems. I will be getting one if these specs are close to the final answer.



Well, you don't know what the new sensor DR is going to be yet with the 45 mpx


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## amorse (Jan 28, 2020)

I'm still really not sure on the 8K RAW point beyond maybe a time-lapse mode. 4K 120 also stands out as being unusual - if this new body was going to do 4k 120, I'd expect the 1DXIII to do it too. 8K wouldn't have been possible for the 1DXIII due to resolution limitations of the sensor, but 4K 120 should have definitely been in reach. If 8K and 4K/120 is being confirmed by multiple sources, I'd be concerned that there is some sort of echo chamber going on where the rumour reinforces the rumour. The rest I can kind of believe. 

Again, unless this is moving way up market from the past 5D series bodies - if this is a $6K-10K body then all bets are most definitely off.


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## TracerHD (Jan 28, 2020)

I hope the new bodys arn't lacking sensor dust protection by switching lenses.

Ah and these specs + dual CFexpress and I'm nearly in


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## unfocused (Jan 28, 2020)

July ship date? That's a really long lead time. Sounds like this is a development announcement. 

The specs sound interesting, but without having the camera in the hands of reviewers, it's impossible to know the things that I consider important -- like autofocus, ergonomics and sensor performance.


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## davidhfe (Jan 28, 2020)

I do not for a minute believe these specs. I very, very much look forward to being wrong. I've been worried about my 5D4 and EF lenses losing their value but if this is actually the spec list I straight up won't care.

[email protected]/20 is a dream camera for me given the state of storage in 2020. The video specs are gravy. At any reasonable price, this camera will be backordered until Dec.


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## Jim Corbett (Jan 28, 2020)

I need to buy this camera only to be sure it exists! 

Off topic: why don't browser notifications work when there is a new post on the main page? It's allowed and the browser is active.


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## josephandrews222 (Jan 28, 2020)

...so the name 'R5' means this is an approximate version of the 5D series?


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## BadHorse (Jan 28, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Nope, no wheel around the D-pad. *However*, the EOS R has an additional wheel on the top/rear corner that no DSLRs have that essentially does everything the wheel around the D-pad does on DSLRs that have it. So the wheel is really more relocated on the R rather than totally removed.


Thanks for clearing that up! So now I'm even more confused what the rumor implies.


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## Otara (Jan 28, 2020)

I too am in the believe it when I see it crowd.


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## deleteme (Jan 28, 2020)

5Ghz Wifi sounds promising but the effort falls flat if they don't get an app that is worth a [email protected]


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 28, 2020)

BadHorse said:


> Thanks for clearing that up! So now I'm even more confused what the rumor implies.


I'm guessing it just means they're going back to the old style of wheel, which is nice because I always felt like the rear wheel on the R was a little hard to reach. I got used to it, but like almost everything on that camera, it makes me wish it was just a little easier to use.


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## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

BadHorse said:


> Does the EOS R not have a wheel around the back that circles the directional-pad/cross-keys? In the manual for my 70D this is referred to as the "Quick Control Dial" and I use it all the time. Does this rumor imply it's making a come-back or is there some other scroll wheel?


EOS R does not have the wheel.


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## mpmark (Jan 28, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Well, you don't know what the new sensor DR is going to be yet with the 45 mpx



very true, smaller photo receptors doesn't always mean a good thing, honestly would be happy with a 30mp 12fps instead but lets see how it does.


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## iamjhil (Jan 28, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Great, but damn, I did not expect to be waiting until July for this. I just sold a spare EOS R on the expectation that something new would be here by March, and the values of EOS Rs would start to take a dive. Kinda wish I had hung onto that camera now.



I was thinking the same thing... Ughhh July is so far away.


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## photographer (Jan 28, 2020)

addola said:


> I am excited about IBIS & the new battery. Hopefully IBIS will be on par with Olympus & Panasonic. It says that the battery is compatible with 5D IV, which is the LP-E6N battery, hopefully they increase the battery capacity.



Canon 1865 mAh, this one 2000 mAh, so there is a room for improovment. 





__





HLX-E6NH Extreme Battery (LP-E6NH)







www.hahnel.ie


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## mpb001 (Jan 28, 2020)

I am glad that they are finally going to include IBIS and even with iS lenses it will be a very valuable asset to have.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

mpmark said:


> very true, smaller photo receptors doesn't always mean a good thing, honestly would be happy with a 30mp 12fps instead but lets see how it does.



Smaller photosites doesn't necessarily mean less DR. That's a myth.


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## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

pulseimages said:


> Will the IBIS work with the EF Adapter as in I wouldn’t have to replace my EF 100 2.8 Macro with the L version to obtain IS with the Canon’s Mirrorless camera? That would be ideal!


IBIS would work with any lens you can attach or adapt. It does on my Olympus. IBIS is accomplished by stabilizing the sensor.


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## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

How much guys? $3,000-$3,500 USD?


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## PureClassA (Jan 28, 2020)

If you say CR3... then... well wow. i know CR3 still isn't Gospel, but you dont toss that rating out willy nilly. 

Holy crap sandwich, this thing is a beast if this actually pans out.

The video specs are RIDICULOUS and almost unbelievable for Canon especially. That said, with a 48MP sensor, there certainly couldn't be a 4k pixel for pixel crop factor as the crop would be virtually unusable.

Makes me wonder is given this camera, we WILL actually see a low MP truly Video Centric RF mount RC(cinema).

This is really, really exciting news. Thanks for hard work!


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## Romain (Jan 28, 2020)

CR3 CR3 CR3 CR3...


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## DrToast (Jan 28, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> 5Ghz Wifi sounds promising but the effort falls flat if they don't get an app that is worth a [email protected]



I disagree. A good app is a plus, but just wireless tethering would be great.


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## AccipiterQ (Jan 28, 2020)

If this comes to fruition I will absolutely sell my EF short-glass (keep long stuff for wildlife shooting with my 7Dii) and upgrade to RF.


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## PureClassA (Jan 28, 2020)

tron said:


> "unless the whole world has conspired to troll us"
> 
> OR, they just learned this rumor from this site and spread it



Ehh... CR3 Ratings typically mean Craig has gotten corroborated info from KNOWN sources that have previously been very reliable. That's what is eye-popping on this one


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## Aussie shooter (Jan 28, 2020)

Is it April 1st? This seems beyond incredible. Although i am not surprised that Canon would have been aiming to release something exceptional in order to trounce the opposition.


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## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Well, you don't know what the new sensor DR is going to be yet with the 45 mpx


It''s going to be better than the 5d Mk iii so that's all that matters to me. It most likely will be better in all aspects except perhaps ergonomics. That's rights Ladies AND Gentlemen, I have large hands.


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## WilliamJ (Jan 28, 2020)

Here’s hoping for the new optical joystick found on the 1DX iii! I’d love to hear that confirmed in the new body too...


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## LesC (Jan 28, 2020)

R5 to denote 5D level? July release date to give us time to save up?


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## PureClassA (Jan 28, 2020)

tron said:


> I would choose a high megapixel DSLR over a mirrorless one to use with my big whites but Canon may not give me or other the choice.



Same here. Everyone I've heard from who owns and regularly uses a DX2 does NOT want a smaller/thinner/more compact body. Weight balancing against larger glass is one of the DX lines BEST features. If/When the 1DX line goes MILC, then I'm betting Canon is going to keep the body almost exactly like it is and just (more or less) remove the mirror, pentaprism, and push the sensor forward in the body towards the flange to get the proper RF distance. Or (the CRAZY-TOWN version) puts a sensor on a rail that can slide it back and forth into position for both EF and RF glass and have interchangeable mounts. Bat-Poop crazy but hey, that is the sort of cool stuff Canon would come up with.


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## Romain (Jan 28, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> About time canon
> 2020 is gonna be a good year
> 
> and for the boomers that don’tthink mirrorless is the future well...


Boomers think there is a future for everyone... Unlike kids!..


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## gdanmitchell (Jan 28, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



I see now that the confusion about whether it is RS or R5 has been resolved... in the way I thought it would be.

I read the "5" in R5 as signifying this as the (mirrorless) successor to the 5D4. The specs make complete sense with that in mind, and in fact they look to be on the good end of "fine." That also makes sense for a first introduction of a mirrorless successor to the 5D4 since Canon would certainly want to push the specifications delta at least a bit, and a 45MP sensor certainly does that.

(Naming it with the letter "S" and calling it the "RS" would have at least suggested a lineage connecting it to the 5Ds/5DsR models — but that wouldn't have made much sense at all with these specifications.)

There might be at least a few folks who find the 5DsR to be an excellent high resolution full frame system (as I do) who also decide that 45MP is enough if it comes with these other specifications. After all, one can easily make an excellent 30" x 40" print from a 45MP full frame file.


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## gdanmitchell (Jan 28, 2020)

Romain said:


> Boomers think there is a future for everyone... Unlike kids!..



Since I'm replying _after_ you wrote this, some future apparently does exist... ;-)


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## jdavidse (Jan 28, 2020)

Sounds like this is the 5DV equivalent. Especially if the name R5 is real. But what does that mean about all the rumors that have come before this? They just evaporate?

On a side, note, I'm going to name mine R5-D4.


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## NorskHest (Jan 28, 2020)

slclick said:


> It's wonderful stills specs.....I'll just smile and allow the video/hybrid people battle this one out while I patiently await the release.


If this is true, I’ll be buying 2.


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## photographer (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> How much guys? $3,000-$3,500 USD?



A $3000 USD price tag would destroy the used cameras market.


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## DaveGrice (Jan 28, 2020)

BadHorse said:


> Does the EOS R not have a wheel around the back that circles the directional-pad/cross-keys? In the manual for my 70D this is referred to as the "Quick Control Dial" and I use it all the time. Does this rumor imply it's making a come-back or is there some other scroll wheel?



Correct, the R does not have such a control. Just the D pad.


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## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

photographer said:


> A $3000 USD price tag would destroy the used cameras market.


Yup. Somehow I don't think Canon cares at all about that.  I might find a lightly used 2nd R on the cheap.


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## PureClassA (Jan 28, 2020)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> 8K?! 120fps at 4k?!
> 
> No way, not happening.



That's the two I'm having a lot of trouble buying into. But one thing that COULD make it more plausible is being able to accommodate the 4k120 externally with an Atomos or something. We know Apple has the ProRes RAW codec and even the Nikon Z series can do ProRes RAW out to the Atomos Ninjas. Could be something along those lines. But I suppose if you could do 8K in 30 you could do 4k at 100. Bout the same data. i just can't imagine this doing either but... hell CR3?!? He usually reserves that for info coming from known/reliable sources I think


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## xanbarksdale (Jan 28, 2020)

I'm guessing $4500 if these specs are true.

I'll definitely be selling my R, and possibly the 1DX2 if this camera is as good as it sounds!


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## hugebob (Jan 28, 2020)

I wonder if the IBIS specs apply to EF lenses using the adapter. If so, I could be happy for awhile until I can get the RF lenses.


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## Matthew Saville (Jan 28, 2020)

Is the person behind SonyAlphaRumors ghost-writing a CR post? This has got to be a contender for the biggest load of "wishful thinking rumor" I've ever read.

The more shocking thing is that half the commenters here aren't even questioning it. Did it not raise any eyebrows that the rumor has a bunch of insane specs, paired with something as silly and minor as "no touch bar"? Red flag!

Speaking of "red", ...you do realize that 8K RAW is usually reserved for $15-30K cameras, right?


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## DaveGrice (Jan 28, 2020)

pulseimages said:


> Will the IBIS work with the EF Adapter as in I wouldn’t have to replace my EF 100 2.8 Macro with the L version to obtain IS with the Canon’s Mirrorless camera? That would be ideal!



The nature of IBIS designs is that its the sensor that moves to compensate for detected shake. Presumably the adapter shouldn't affect that.


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## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

hugebob said:


> I wonder if the IBIS specs apply to EF lenses using the adapter. If so, I could be happy for awhile until I can get the RF lenses.


It absolutely does. IBIS is not lens dependent.


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## hugebob (Jan 28, 2020)

xanbarksdale said:


> I'm guessing $4500 if these specs are true.
> 
> I'll definitely be selling my R, and possibly the 1DX2 if this camera is as good as it sounds!


I've been waiting for a camera like this! But, hopefully they get these out to rental houses sooner rather than later so I can play before I buy.


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## dwarven (Jan 28, 2020)

5GHz wifi should mean super quick transfers to phone.


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## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> Is the person behind SonyAlphaRumors ghost-writing a CR post? This has got to be a contender for the biggest load of "wishful thinking rumor" I've ever read.
> 
> The more shocking thing is that half the commenters here aren't even questioning it. Did it not raise any eyebrows that the rumor has a bunch of insane specs, paired with something as silly and minor as "no touch bar"? Red flag!
> 
> Speaking of "red", ...you do realize that 8K RAW is usually reserved for $15-30K cameras, right?


You've missed the other thread where everyone was questioning it as a CR1. This is a CR3 rumor.


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## robinlee (Jan 28, 2020)

Too good to be true... this spec may be released in the year 2030.


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## WhereDoWeGoFrmHere (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> How much guys? $3,000-$3,500 USD?



If the vid specs are real, yeah, $3500


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## amorse (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> How much guys? $3,000-$3,500 USD?


I'm going $3,799 on this one: ~5DIV launch mark plus inflation. Outlier chance that they try to stick to the $3500 entry point for 5D from the past. The challenge is this is would be a considerable advancement up market from a 5D IV (in my opinion), so they could be moving the market position closer to the 1DXIII so I wouldn't even be surprised if the body came in the $4,000 territory. 

If they make this big of a jump on that style of camera, all bets are off on what they're going to do - it all seems so out of character so I have a hard time relying on past behaviour to guesstimate future direction.


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 28, 2020)

I still cannot believe the 8k video specs in this list - if this comes true, Canon engineers really created a wonder. Overall, if all of this turns into a real camera, this would be a really bold move of Canon in the FF world. Canon would be back again in the leading pack. I was seriously considering the R and RP, but never took the plunge, also with the 5D IV. The R5 could be really worth to have waited patiently a bit, now it depends on the price tag...


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 28, 2020)

amorse said:


> I'm going $3,799 on this one: ~5DIV launch mark plus inflation. Outlier chance that they try to stick to the $3500 entry point for 5D from the past. The challenge is this is would be a considerable advancement up market from a 5D IV (in my opinion), so they could be moving the market position closer to the 1DXIII so I wouldn't even be surprised if the body came in the $4,000 territory.
> 
> If they make this big of a jump on that style of camera, all bets are off on what they're going to do - it all seems so out of character so I have a hard time relying on past behaviour to guesstimate future direction.


3,500 US$ minimum, if this 8k video spec really turns out to be realistic, I guess four+ grands would be then much more likely.


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## Matthew Saville (Jan 28, 2020)

gdanmitchell said:


> I see now that the confusion about whether it is RS or R5 has been resolved... in the way I thought it would be.
> 
> I read the "5" in R5 as signifying this as the (mirrorless) successor to the 5D4. The specs make complete sense with that in mind, and in fact they look to be on the good end of "fine." That also makes sense for a first introduction of a mirrorless successor to the 5D4 since Canon would certainly want to push the specifications delta at least a bit, and a 45MP sensor certainly does that.
> 
> ...


45 MP is no longer considered "high-res", though, so I'm guessing that any "R5s" camera will be that ~80 (??) MP sensor people were rumoring.

45 MP is the new "normal", especially since Canon continues to perfect their mRAW technology.

(Although, I'm still waiting for lossy compression and 12-bit options, though, for truly high-volume work, like action sports or weddings.Those are much better solutions than 1/2 megapixel mRAW with 14-bit lossless compression that simply doesn't save the same %% in file size as it compromises in resolution...)


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## photographer (Jan 28, 2020)

xanbarksdale said:


> I'm guessing $4500 if these specs are true.
> 
> I'll definitely be selling my R, and possibly the 1DX2 if this camera is as good as it sounds!



If the rumor turns out to be true and R5 doesn't cost $ 6,000, then we sell R at the price of a bigmac menu.


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## WhereDoWeGoFrmHere (Jan 28, 2020)

Can I get a stills version w/o the video specs for less $$


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 28, 2020)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> 8K?! 120fps at 4k?!
> 
> No way, not happening.


I can't believe this, too, smells like a little scent of fake...


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## mpmark (Jan 28, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Smaller photosites doesn't necessarily mean less DR. That's a myth.



never said it did, but it does mean less light gathering capabilities, thats not a myth.


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## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> Can I get a stills version w/o the video specs for less $$


That will probably be the R Mark II when it gets here.


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## PureClassA (Jan 28, 2020)

The previous Series 5 Bodies were all $3200-$3500 if memory serves, so yeah, would stand to reason this will be as well.


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## edoorn (Jan 28, 2020)

I'd like two please. July would give me some time to sell that kidney on the black market...


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 28, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> Can I get a stills version w/o the video specs for less $$


Leica would hear your complaints and give you a stripped down R without even an LCD screen and b&w images only--but for 8k+ US-$


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## Bob Howland (Jan 28, 2020)

CP+ is a month away. I think I'm just going to relax until then and see what happens.


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## Matthew Saville (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> You've missed the other thread where everyone was questioning it as a CR1. This is a CR3 rumor.


I didn't miss anything, I saw the CR3. A rumor site declaring something "fact" doesn't make it so, of course.

There's simply no way a 5-series camera has 8K raw video. (it would have to be relatively un-cropped to be 8K on a 45 MP sensor, BTW) At most, I'd maybe believe 4K 30p RAW, in a cropped 1:1 pixel mode, MAYBE.

There's simply no way that 4K 120p is full-sensor. I'd believe 4K 30p full-sensor, like I said, or 60p/120p in a cropped mode.

The fishy part is that they're pairing such insane specs with a random footnote like "no touch bar", and an odd, vague detail about the battery. this just reeks of someone sitting down and writing a few random things they hope will happen.

Legit leaks usually come out one or two pieces at a time, and don't talk about minor ergonomic changes at the same time as they rattle off attention-grabbing specs.

But hey, if I'm wrong, then yay, Canon will have a total lock-down of the video market, and a lock-down of the stills market too if the dynamic range is anything close to a Nikon Z7 or Sony A7R3-4...


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## TMACIOSZEK (Jan 28, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



I'm going on a limb to say this model will have an initial retail of about $3700.


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## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> I didn't miss anything, I saw the CR3. A rumor site declaring something "fact" doesn't make it so, of course.
> 
> There's simply no way a 5-series camera has 8K raw video. (it would have to be relatively un-cropped to be 8K on a 45 MP sensor, BTW) At most, I'd maybe believe 4K 30p RAW, in a cropped 1:1 pixel mode, MAYBE.
> 
> ...


No touch bar and the addition of the wheel is a big deal around here. Maybe not for you, but for others it is.


----------



## cellomaster27 (Jan 28, 2020)

guys guys.. this is ridiculous. You know how canon tries to keep the cinema line separate.. this is going totally against what they're been doing. You think they would do that now? MAYBE the 8k and 4k has a MASSIVE crop or something like no DPAF with video or no AF. idk. but this is dumb. Who would buy the 1dx3?? I think it'll definitely destroy that part of the market. absolutely do not believe this.. plus its a 45mp FF sensor. 12-20 fps?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. HEIF files or not, nooooo way.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 28, 2020)

OH CRAP HE [CR3]'D IT

S--- just got kinda theoretically real

I don't know how to handle that this spec list I've been pooping on for a few days may actually be a real product.




- A


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

cellomaster27 said:


> guys guys.. this is ridiculous. You know how canon tries to keep the cinema line separate.. this is going totally against what they're been doing. You think they would do that now? MAYBE the 8k and 4k has a MASSIVE crop or something like no DPAF with video or no AF. idk. but this is dumb. Who would buy the 1dx3?? I think it'll definitely destroy that part of the market. absolutely do not believe this.. plus its a 45mp FF sensor. 12-20 fps?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. HEIF files or not, nooooo way.


Be the sun, not the rain.


----------



## Matthew Saville (Jan 28, 2020)

mpmark said:


> never said it did, but it does mean less light gathering capabilities, thats not a myth.


With the latest tech in gapless microlenses on each photosite, the light-gathering loss is virtually zero, so I think we can finally put this one to rest. DR is effectively independent from megapixel count, in real-world use.

What is a bigger deal is, SNR and how megapixels affect the look of "grain" at various ISOs. (Personally, I welcome higher MP counts in this regard, too, because I like the finer look to "grain" (noise), but others still prefer 12-24 megapixels for the cleanest images, when incorrectly comparing them at 100% ;-)


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jan 28, 2020)

Other than 8k video, these all look like incremental upgrades to the 5d line but in a mirrorless body. I would expect there to be a R5 and 5D of somewhat equal specs. But even the 8k video, they can surely put it in and cripple it enough that video people will still want a C line camera.... that or it being poor in practice given CFE cards at the required capacity would be prohibitively expensive.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

mpmark said:


> never said it did, but it does mean less light gathering capabilities, thats not a myth.



No, that's a myth too.

Each gathers less, but the total is the same and the total is what matters.


----------



## Romain (Jan 28, 2020)

slclick said:


> It's wonderful stills specs.....I'll just smile and allow the video/hybrid people battle this one out while I patiently await the release.


Like i said on the first CR1 rumor... Since Z-Cam are on the market, the bottom of Canon and Sony's cine line are under threat, new technologies must be realesed. I think without a doubt we enter a new era in videography too. Canon will certainliy implement 4K 120 fps (cropped probably) in their high end mirrorless (at least one) and in their cine cameras (cropped for the bottom line, and not cropped for the most expensives).


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jan 28, 2020)

Mars1954 said:


> NO mention here of dual card slots! should we just assume that it will have them?


Cards? Which cards? Check the rumored spec list: right at the bottom you find the really sensational news, no, it is not 8k video, it is this permanent high bandwidth smart link to Canon's new satellite system  This really will stuff the mouths of Sony fanboyz.


----------



## Matthew Saville (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> No touch bar and the addition of the wheel is a big deal around here. Maybe not for you, but for others it is.


Yeah, and that's why I'm not buying it. Sounds like wishful thinking.

Personally, I loved the touchbar, and I'm even more excited about the 1DX3's touch-sensitive AF point control stick. I loved the EOS R touchbar ever since I saw it at the press release and realized I could use it to directly control Kelvin WB, (wedding photographer) ...and I really liked the 1DX3's AF point joystick at CES earlier this month.

Time will tell, but I still think it's very odd that these are the specs that were leaked. Seems like a suspicious assortment of "facts"...


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 28, 2020)

amorse said:


> Again, unless this is moving way up market from the past 5D series bodies - if this is a $6K-10K body then all bets are most definitely off.



Yes, it is moving so far upmarket, that there is no longer any higher level. Aside from weight and size, there's not much an 1D-equivalent would add to the mix.

As such, I suspect this unlikely camera would be a $5999 flagship. Maybe an R1 could be an industrial camera, with the fast ethernet ports and such that the several hundred Olympics level shooters would use, and would fit into the new robotic housings Canon is making. There's not much else it could add.


----------



## t.linn (Jan 28, 2020)

Tom W said:


> Well, I think I'm going to start saving some money for this one. Sounds like it could be a dream, depending on the sensor's capabilities.


That's the first question that came to my mind: Has Canon made anything more than the most basic incremental steps toward competing on the DR front with Sony.


----------



## AccipiterQ (Jan 28, 2020)

Anyone want to guess on the price?


----------



## Aaron Lozano (Jan 28, 2020)

if it said 4K 60 fps no crop, ok but... 8K 30fps? Not happening. 

With 12fps, IBIS, 14.5 DR and good AF I would be sold. (45MP is low for me but I take many will like it)


----------



## mpmark (Jan 28, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> No, that's a myth too.
> 
> Each gathers less, but the total is the same and the total is what matters.



Larger photosite do not gather more light then smaller ones? uuhhh, ok? sure!
I'm not going to get into a pointless discussion, read up on photosites ISO and light gathering, believe what you want if you don't want. Last reply to you my friend.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Anyone want to guess on the price?


I was thinking $3k to $3.5K. Starting to wonder if this will be priced like the 5Dc was.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 28, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> There's simply no way a 5-series camera has 8K raw video. (it would have to be relatively un-cropped to be 8K on a 45 MP sensor, BTW) At most, I'd maybe believe 4K 30p RAW, in a cropped 1:1 pixel mode, MAYBE.
> 
> There's simply no way that 4K 120p is full-sensor. I'd believe 4K 30p full-sensor, like I said, or 60p/120p in a cropped mode.
> 
> The fishy part is that they're pairing such insane specs with a random footnote like "no touch bar", and an odd, vague detail about the battery. this just reeks of someone sitting down and writing a few random things they hope will happen.



The 8K I'm tempted to think could be time lapse as a few have already mentioned. A cropped 4K on this camera would be almost unusable at 1:1. The 30MP Eos R and 5D4 have a 4K crop factor of 1.75x already. We're talking about way more here. That said the 4K120 is really a head scratcher. The Sony A7R4 is listed at 62.5MP and can yield 4K30. 48MP with 4K60 seems plausible. but 120?? Wow if true, but I'm struggling to believe that... But the touch bar bit? yeah, that was a big deal for EOS R people because no one seemed to like it. Makes sense to throw that out as a primary mention


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> It absolutely does. IBIS is not lens dependent.



IBIS *IS* lens dependent in that it needs communication to figure out the focal length, especially with zooms. The image compensation is exaggerated with longer FLs and minimized proportionately with shorter FLs due to parallax effect. Sony and Panasonic handle this somewhat elegantly with non-reporting lenses by having a little menu place where you can manually enter in your current focal length. (Probably a mistake to have put the words elegant, Sony and menu system all together in the same sentence. It takes me 10 minutes to find it every time.) This also enables pixel-shift functions with those lenses. This isn't a guarantee Canon will do same, but the territory is well trod.


----------



## Joules (Jan 28, 2020)

mpmark said:


> Larger photosite do not gather more light then smaller ones?


That's not what you quoted. The total amount of collected light matters, that's not false.


----------



## Joules (Jan 28, 2020)

******** I tell you! 



*Sony, that is


----------



## addola (Jan 28, 2020)

photographer said:


> Canon 1865 mAh, this one 2000 mAh, so there is a room for improovment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, my third party batteries claim capacities that are usually higher than Canon's OEM batteries.

Canon need to compete on battery life. Sony A7 III & Nikon Z6/Z7 have a slightly higher battery capacity (about 2200 mAh) and Panasonic S1 have a whopping 3000 mAh battery although I heard that their cameras consume a lot of power.


----------



## keithcooper (Jan 28, 2020)

Well, an interesting mix of specs.
It seems somewhat more a mirrorless 5D4 follow-on than a 5Ds follow-on
Seems perfectly sensible from a Canon business POV - there are many more potential buyers for the 5 than for the 's'

However, I'm keen to see how the 'new' 45MP compares with the 'old' 50MP
If it adds multi-shot (which was great with my EF glass on an S1R) then it would fit my occasional desire for more than 50MP in a single(ish) shot.

So, to get an R5 or wait for an R5s ;-)
The video specs and FPS are of no interest for me whatsoever - another reason for it being a better commercial bet for Canon than an out and out 's' version (I'm not alone in this view, but appreciate the relative size of different audiences)

I'm somewhat reminded of how the 1DX was also promoted as a replacement for the 1Ds3 for a while by some Canon people (with a straight face) when most 1Ds3 users didn't see it quite that way ;-)


----------



## trulandphoto (Jan 28, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Anyone want to guess on the price?


I'm going to guess $3,299 US. It seems like this might be the R version of what a 5D Mark V would be.

So, I'm also guessing it's going to be called the R5. 

I want one.


----------



## dwarven (Jan 28, 2020)

Aaron Lozano said:


> if it said 4K 60 fps no crop, ok but... 8K 30fps? Not happening.
> 
> With 12fps, IBIS, 14.5 DR and good AF I would be sold. (45MP is low for me but I take many will like it)



In what area of photography is 45MP considered low? Are you trying to make wall sized prints or what.


----------



## Nick L (Jan 28, 2020)

If half of this is coming then I will be buying


----------



## Adelino (Jan 28, 2020)

Holy guacamole!


----------



## keithcooper (Jan 28, 2020)

dwarven said:


> In what area of photography is 45MP considered low? Are you trying to make wall sized prints or what.


Highly detailed shots of walls, documenting cracks in stonework
Yes, I do make wall sized prints as well ;-)


----------



## Joules (Jan 28, 2020)

The 1DX III does ~ 5500*2900*60 Pixel/second in its RAW video mode, which has no AF.

That's basically the same throughput as 8K 30p RAW video, 4K 120p video and 45 MP 20 FPS stills. So technically it actually sounds plausible - this should all be without AF though! And the 4K options will get a brutal crop or have line skipping. Nonetheless, gorgeous specs. I'm hyped, let's hope this Info will actually transform into reality.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 28, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> About time canon
> 2020 is gonna be a good year
> 
> and for the boomers that don’tthink mirrorless is the future well...


I am a boomer, but it was never a case of "IF" but "WHEN". I could care less if it has a mirror or not, I want the capabilities.


----------



## Matthew Saville (Jan 28, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> The 8K I'm tempted to think could be time lapse as a few have already mentioned. A cropped 4K on this camera would be almost unusable at 1:1. The 30MP Eos R and 5D4 have a 4K crop factor of 1.75x already. We're talking about way more here. That said the 4K120 is really a head scratcher. The Sony A7R4 is listed at 62.5MP and can yield 4K30. 48MP with 4K60 seems plausible. but 120?? Wow if true, but I'm struggling to believe that... But the touch bar bit? yeah, that was a big deal for EOS R people because no one seemed to like it. Makes sense to throw that out as a primary mention


8K timelapse? Party like it's 2015, Canon! (Sony A7Rii, 42 MP "raw timelapse" capable...)

I'm suspecting that any 4K video better than 30p MP4 is indeed going to be cropped.

4K 30p, both full-sensor and RAW, would already be unprecedented. It would totally steal the thunder from Nikon's 4K RAW external recording, and would put Sony's long reign of un-cropped full-frame 4K video to shame...


----------



## Larsskv (Jan 28, 2020)

I believe this rumor is true. Didn’t Canon announce a while back ago that they would step up their game? It seems obvious that Canon has to do something aggressive to gain a larger portion of the higher end mirrorless market. Sony has gained a stronger position in that market than Canon can be comfortable with. 

I am very curious to see the design, the ergonomics and button layout. I hope And believe they adapt many of the 5D series solutions. I really hope they add that new AF optical AF point selector on a AF back button, as seen on the 1DXIII. 

Another major challenge I wonder if Canon has solved, is the somewhat laggy response the R suffers from. By that I mean the R doesn’t really respond very fast when you press the shutter. It seems that the camera need a little time to fine tune it’s focus before it release the shutter. Don’t get me wrong, that is a good priority on Canon’s side, but it makes the shooting experience less satisfying. Pick up a 1DX and hit the shutter, compare to the R, and you will understand what I mean. 

I have little doubt it will have two card slots. It will be interesting to see how they have improved the sensor performance.


----------



## Hector1970 (Jan 28, 2020)

Fantasy specs I’d say. A camera like that would Canon playing their full hand. Nice if true but my expectations are lower.


----------



## Matthew Saville (Jan 28, 2020)

Joules said:


> The 1DX III does ~ 5500*2900*60 Pixel/second in its RAW video mode, which has no AF.
> 
> That's basically the same throughput as 8K 30p RAW video, 4K 120p video and 45 MP 20 FPS stills. So technically it actually sounds plausible - this should all be without AF though! And the 4K options will get a brutal crop or have line skipping. Nonetheless, gorgeous specs. I'm hyped, let's hope this Info will actually transform into reality.


Yeah, but in stills mode, the 1DX3 also does "only" 20 FPS, yet this camera is claiming 20 FPS @ 45MP with electronic shutter.

So, it begs the question, did they limit the 1DX3's stills throughput, when it could possibly do 30 FPS or 40 FPS RAW stills, without AF?

I suspect that there is a lot more to these exciting numbers than we're getting. It's very likely that each spec has one or two serious caveats that totally changes the "shock factor" of each number at first glance...


----------



## navastronia (Jan 28, 2020)

Have we honestly gone 7 pages without a "no 24p" joke? I'm disappointed in you guys


----------



## Grimbald (Jan 28, 2020)

Just please let it have good DR and low light capabilities! As a timelapser, this camera would be an absolute dream come true!


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 28, 2020)

An attempt at some business logic justifying this alleged plan of Canon's: 
If canon were going to shutter its cine line over the next couple of years and consolidate the functionalities in R bodies, they could expect to increase per-camera margins. They charge $16k for the C500 and about half that for the C300. If they charged $6000 for the R5 and put 80 percent of the C300's functionality into it, they'd make a much better margin based on running just one line and having better economies of scale. The problem, of course, is that there are legit cine-only pieces of functionality that just wouldn't work out with a hybrid body. 

An alternative: Canon believes its cineasts wouldn't adopt an R body, so loading up the R5 with features won't actually hurt the cine business line because the videographers need their ND filters built in, etc. 

The more I war game the strategy side of this, the less that spec list makes any sense - even stipulating that it made sense as a likely spec list in the first place.


----------



## Romain (Jan 28, 2020)

Canon has in mind our disappointment when 5DIV, 6DII and 80D came out (2016)... Between 2020 and 2022 Canon will blow our minds with amazing things for sure.... CANON IS A MASTERMIND  ... Please God, make my post true!!!...


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> IBIS *IS* lens dependent in that it needs communication to figure out the focal length, especially with zooms. The image compensation is exaggerated with longer FLs and minimized proportionately with shorter FLs due to parallax effect. Sony and Panasonic handle this somewhat elegantly with non-reporting lenses by having a little menu place where you can manually enter in your current focal length. (Probably a mistake to have put the words elegant, Sony and menu system all together in the same sentence. It takes me 10 minutes to find it every time.) This also enables pixel-shift functions with those lenses. This isn't a guarantee Canon will do same, but the territory is well trod.


That's the same way my Olympus handles it. The point is (that I was making) that any lens will work... including EF and non-reporting lenses.


----------



## Joules (Jan 28, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> Yeah, but in stills mode, the 1DX3 also does "only" 20 FPS, yet this camera is claiming 20 FPS @ 45MP with electronic shutter.
> 
> So, it begs the question, did they limit the 1DX3's stills throughput, when it could possibly do 30 FPS or 40 FPS RAW stills, without AF?
> 
> I suspect that there is a lot more to these exciting numbers than we're getting. It's very likely that each spec has one or two serious caveats that totally changes the "shock factor" of each number at first glance...


Electronic shutter will suffer from rolling shutter effect on moving subjects. A compromise that they would never allow on their fabulous flagship body, I think.

But the 1DX is definitely limited in it's stills speed. Keep in mind that the M6 II has a crop mode with an electronic shutter that does 30 FPS at 18 MP, and even though that's only 12 bit, it outperforms the 1DX III in speed and throughput - and that's with AF mind you!


----------



## JPB (Jan 28, 2020)

But if this rumour is true. Whats the point with the 1 dx mk 3? Isn´t the 1dx mk 3 supposed to be their flag ship in a way.


----------



## Romain (Jan 28, 2020)

Grimbald said:


> View attachment 188382
> 
> 
> 
> Just please let it have good DR and low light capabilities! As a timelapser, this camera would be an absolute dream come true!


Just Timelapses? With very good DR and lowlight capabilities? Need MF (with an EF adapter)? Sony maybe? Need LR presets for free because of Sony's color science?.. Switch or wait!...


----------



## Joules (Jan 28, 2020)

JPB said:


> But if this rumour is true. Whats the point with the 1 dx mk 3? Isn´t the 1dx mk 3 supposed to be their flag ship in a way.


Flagship DSLR in any case. An OVF alone is probably sufficient to make a lot of people choose a 1DX III over anything Canon will release for RF system soon.

And there are so many other reasons, the 1 line isn't about specs alone.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I am a boomer, but it was never a case of "IF" but "WHEN". I could care less if it has a mirror or not, I want the capabilities.


Yeah, don't know why anyone thinks this is "boomer" mentality. Kinda silly.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 28, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> 8K timelapse? Party like it's 2015, Canon! (Sony A7Rii, 42 MP "raw timelapse" capable...)
> 
> I'm suspecting that any 4K video better than 30p MP4 is indeed going to be cropped.
> 
> 4K 30p, both full-sensor and RAW, would already be unprecedented. It would totally steal the thunder from Nikon's 4K RAW external recording, and would put Sony's long reign of un-cropped full-frame 4K video to shame...



Well we just got Full Frame and RAW in the 1DX3 soooo.... (as there is no mention of AF in these specs either)

And the Nikon Z I'm assuming is what you mean, and that is ProRes RAW out. Not regular RAW.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> How much guys? $3,000-$3,500 USD?


$3,750


----------



## Adelino (Jan 28, 2020)

josephandrews222 said:


> ...wow. The IBIS alone is wonderful news.


Yes wonderful news, but somewhat expected.


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

Romain said:


> Like i said on the first CR1 rumor... Since Z-Cam are on the market, the bottom of Canon and Sony's cine line are under threat, new technologies must be realesed. I think without a doubt we enter a new era in videography too. Canon will certainliy implement 4K 120 fps (cropped probably) in their high end mirrorless (at least one) and in their cine cameras (cropped for the bottom line, and not cropped for the most expensives).


So I state how I could care less about video and you have to quote one and add your two cents. I really would rather have zero cents, thank you.


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

jdavidse said:


> Sounds like this is the 5DV equivalent. Especially if the name R5 is real. But what does that mean about all the rumors that have come before this? They just evaporate?
> 
> On a side, note, I'm going to name mine R5-D4.
> View attachment 188380


Sir, I applaud your taste in hardware and furthermore give you a standing ovation for not mentioning video in any way shape or from.


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

WhereDoWeGoFrmHere said:


> If the vid specs are real, yeah, $3500


Just your basic 5D series prices


----------



## vjlex (Jan 28, 2020)

This sounds like the mirrorless I've been waiting for! I'm a little surprised that there's so much doubt about it. What I still remember is NO ONE saw the original R coming. Even this site thought it was wrong. And then it just dropped. It's rare, but every once in a while, Canon blows all expectations out of the water. No one really saw the 5D Mark II being what it was either. Canon's been long overdue for another one of those moments.


----------



## Grimbald (Jan 28, 2020)

Romain said:


> Just Timelapses? With very good DR and lowlight capabilities? Need MF (with an EF adapter)? Sony maybe? Need LR presets for free because of Sony's color science?.. Switch or wait!...



I'm on the edge of buying a a7 R III... What holds me back is simply the reliability and weather sealing (and a little bit of connectivity capabilities with specific ramping and motion control hardware that I use). 
I'd honestly give up a half a stop of DR over a Sony if I could get a similar Canon camera. I dropped my 5d in the mud, it fell on rocks a few times in the mountains, has cracks and scratches all over it... Still works perfectly. Not sure if a Sony would handle all this.


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

Nick L said:


> If half of this is coming then I will be buying


That's the spirit


----------



## JPB (Jan 28, 2020)

Joules said:


> Flagship DSLR in any case. An OVF alone is probably sufficient to make a lot of people choose a 1DX III over anything Canon will release for RF system soon.
> 
> And there are so many other reasons, the 1 line isn't about specs alone.


But the thing is, I am about to pre order the 1 dx mk 3 with a 512 gb CFexpress. Here is Sweden, it will be about 9000€. With a rumour like this makes me a little nervous


----------



## Romain (Jan 28, 2020)

slclick said:


> So I state how I could care less about video and you have to quote one and add your two cents. I really would rather have zero cents, thank you.


----------



## pj1974 (Jan 28, 2020)

If the specs are true, and if the EVF and a few other aspects (e.g. AF tracking) are up to my requirements, this is likely to be the FF Mirrorless that gets my money. 
Canon Rumors CR3 ratings have rarely missed the mark... so I am quietly confident (and hopeful).

Plus the M6mkii offers a very useful indicative indication of what the next mirrorless FF capabilities can be....

While I'm 95% a stills photo guy, I do appreciate what helpful video functionality brings to ILCs.

I have loved Canon DSLRs since the early 2000's, and look forward to making the switch to mirrorless / RF. Having used a EOS R on several occasions, it never was the camera for me.

Looking forward to the official annoucement/s, release, etc.... Go CANON!

PJ


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

pj1974 said:


> If the specs are true, and if the EVF and a few other aspects (e.g. AF tracking) are up to my requirements, this is likely to be the FF Mirrorless that gets my money.
> Canon Rumors CR3 ratings have rarely missed the mark... so I am quietly confident (and hopeful).
> 
> Plus the M6mkii offers a very useful indicative indication of what the next mirrorless FF capabilities can be....
> ...


I'd love to be able to edit the menu sections in 'My Settings' and bypass the screens you don't need like well, Video. Because I didn't go to NYU.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 28, 2020)

[/QUOTE]
I think this is the follow on to the 5dIV, not the 7d II.


CanonFanBoy said:


> Yup. Somehow I don't think Canon cares at all about that.  I might find a lightly used 2nd R on the cheap.


I think you are setting yourself up for disappoint if expecting a $3k price point, the Sony A7R IV is $3,498 on B&H.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 28, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> An attempt at some business logic justifying this alleged plan of Canon's:
> If canon were going to shutter its cine line over the next couple of years and consolidate the functionalities in R bodies, they could expect to increase per-camera margins. They charge $16k for the C500 and about half that for the C300. If they charged $6000 for the R5 and put 80 percent of the C300's functionality into it, they'd make a much better margin based on running just one line and having better economies of scale. The problem, of course, is that there are legit cine-only pieces of functionality that just wouldn't work out with a hybrid body.
> 
> An alternative: Canon believes its cineasts wouldn't adopt an R body, so loading up the R5 with features won't actually hurt the cine business line because the videographers need their ND filters built in, etc.
> ...


They cannot charge $6000 for a 5D level camera body. This is what they charge for the 1d range. It would not make a commercial sense. Around $3750 is a reasonable price expectation in my opinion. We will see


----------



## BillB (Jan 28, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> The previous Series 5 Bodies were all $3200-$3500 if memory serves, so yeah, would stand to reason this will be as well.


I seem to remember that the 5DS and the 5DSR were higher, but under $4K


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jan 28, 2020)

Sony: Let's compete on specs

...years later...

Canon: Hold my beer


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

Oh it's going top be expensive, don't have 7D pricing fantasies. It won't be 1 Series cash but it will be worthy of some American Express points for sure.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 28, 2020)

JPB said:


> But the thing is, I am about to pre order the 1 dx mk 3 with a 512 gb CFexpress. Here is Sweden, it will be about 9000€. With a rumour like this makes me a little nervous


You should be. Seriously. With 12fps mechanical shutter. Why would you need 16?


----------



## raistmaj (Jan 28, 2020)

Sorry, those specs don’t make sense. The processing power required for 20fps at 45mp is something that the 1dx m3 doesn’t have. 

Honestly, reduce the fps and we are probably good for the photography side. 

8k resolution is a no way, they don’t even do that on the C500.


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 28, 2020)

Sony is DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED

Wait did I do this right?


----------



## mariosk1gr (Jan 28, 2020)

Wondeful news...! I sold my 5d4 and waiting for the new R5. Hope this time Canon kicks some [email protected] as they did with 1dx Mark III. The sad thing for me actually that Im still with my c100 mark II and waiting for an update. Im starting to believe that there won't be an update for c100...


----------



## Deleted member 68328 (Jan 28, 2020)

Any chance we could see a GPS on that camera? This camera seems really nice for travel, GPS is great for that.


----------



## brad-man (Jan 28, 2020)

ritholtz said:


> Seriously.. I need cheap RF lens. Outdoing Sony in high end no mirror gear.


Boy, have you come to the wrong thread...


----------



## Deleted member 68328 (Jan 28, 2020)

I'm really curious about body size. I really hope they'll make it 1) less ugly than the EOS R and 2) bigger as Panasonic's S1R


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 28, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> Yeah, and that's why I'm not buying it. Sounds like wishful thinking.
> 
> Personally, I loved the touchbar, and I'm even more excited about the 1DX3's touch-sensitive AF point control stick. I loved the EOS R touchbar ever since I saw it at the press release and realized I could use it to directly control Kelvin WB, (wedding photographer) ...and I really liked the 1DX3's AF point joystick at CES earlier this month.
> 
> Time will tell, but I still think it's very odd that these are the specs that were leaked. Seems like a suspicious assortment of "facts"...


I think you are more likely to see the joy stick with touch introduced on the 1dx II.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> How much guys? $3,000-$3,500 USD?


4 grand


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

yoms said:


> I'm really curious about body size. I really hope they'll make it 1) less ugly than the EOS R and 2) bigger as Panasonic's S1R


I think the R is kinda cute.


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

brad-man said:


> Boy, have you come to the wrong thread...


No kidding, he might as well have asked for the 7D3.


----------



## BillB (Jan 28, 2020)

JPB said:


> But if this rumour is true. Whats the point with the 1 dx mk 3? Isn´t the 1dx mk 3 supposed to be their flag ship in a way.


The 1DXIII has an OVF and mirror based AF, And that is what some people want. We don't know how the AF is going to stack up on the R5 in comparison


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 28, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> Is the person behind SonyAlphaRumors ghost-writing a CR post? This has got to be a contender for the biggest load of "wishful thinking rumor" I've ever read.
> 
> The more shocking thing is that half the commenters here aren't even questioning it. Did it not raise any eyebrows that the rumor has a bunch of insane specs, paired with something as silly and minor as "no touch bar"? Red flag!
> 
> Speaking of "red", ...you do realize that 8K RAW is usually reserved for $15-30K cameras, right?





Codebunny said:


> Other than 8k video, these all look like incremental upgrades to the 5d line but in a mirrorless body. I would expect there to be a R5 and 5D of somewhat equal specs. But even the 8k video, they can surely put it in and cripple it enough that video people will still want a C line camera.... that or it being poor in practice given CFE cards at the required capacity would be prohibitively expensive.



Even IF you write off the 8K as a mistranslation, the base specs still are in wishful thinking territory. 45 @ 20fps? Even with no mechanical shutter, or no AF, that is still more data than any other camera moves around. That's not incremental.

"R5" - 45x20 = 900mp/s
A74 - 60x10 = 600
A92 - 24x20 = 480
1D3 - 20x20 = 400
Z70 - 45x9 = 405

What are Leicas pushing? Is there a higher throughput camera on the market than the A74?


----------



## BillB (Jan 28, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> $3,750


Looks about right, maybe a tad low


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

Sort of makes me wonder how spectacular an R1 will be, if ever released.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 28, 2020)

Larsskv said:


> I believe this rumor is true. Didn’t Canon announce a while back ago that they would step up their game? It seems obvious that Canon has to do something aggressive to gain a larger portion of the higher end mirrorless market. Sony has gained a stronger position in that market than Canon can be comfortable with.
> 
> I am very curious to see the design, the ergonomics and button layout. I hope And believe they adapt many of the 5D series solutions. I really hope they add that new AF optical AF point selector on a AF back button, as seen on the 1DXIII.
> 
> ...



I hope Canon does not prioritize spec over performance and reliability. I picked up a 90d to test and found that it struggled with AF burst shooting. The AF would lock and pretty fast, but wander as the burst hit 7-8 shots. I also saw this on shorter burts, but it ws most prevalent when you got up to around 7-8 shots. I would eventually find it's way back to lock if the burst was long enough. I believe this was processor overload as it was dealing with continuous calculation of theAF combined with writing files to the card. Where I am going with this is that I hope they have enough processing power to provide reliable AF while providing the other camera functions. I would take less MPX/frame rate to have a killer AF tracking system.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jan 28, 2020)

This makes a mockery of the 1DXIII in some ways, yes different target, but those specs are too good to be true and if true imagine the price. The heat from 4K120 would be huge, and they would need a very fast read speed, 2x the 1DXIII's read speed even if it has no AF and with a huge crop.

I call trolled, but would love for this to be true. It would be a seismic shift in the mirrorless FF market. IMO the only way these specs are true is if there are huge caveats in the performance claims eg no AF with 4K60p, 4K120p or 8K30p, 12fps for stills, 6fps with tracking etc.


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Sort of makes me wonder how spectacular an R1 will be, if ever released.


I could not be prouder of you for being on top of the naming schemes


----------



## mjg79 (Jan 28, 2020)

Well some have said Canon would eventually hit back hard on the camera front, I mean for several years now the entire industry has been saying Sony and Nikon cameras are more advanced in this or that way. It didn't actually seem to do Canon any harm but perhaps they decided to get back on top.

To be frank I'll only believe those specs when I see them but we will see. 

The name of R5 kind of surprises me after R and Rp, I thought they might go on a different track but that suggests they are going to go back to the EF line up for names.

I do hope it has IBIS - that would mean I will just stick with my EF 24-70 2.8 and not have to buy the RF model for a good long time until its prices fall. IBIS will I suspect be appreciated a great deal by many with large EF lens collections who want to delay buying the RF glass while it is expensive. For that reason I remain sceptical as to whether canon will bring it in but I certainly hope I'm wrong!


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

slclick said:


> I could not be prouder of you for being on top of the naming schemes


 You're on a roll today.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 28, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> Yeah, but in stills mode, the 1DX3 also does "only" 20 FPS, yet this camera is claiming 20 FPS @ 45MP with electronic shutter.
> 
> So, it begs the question, did they limit the 1DX3's stills throughput, when it could possibly do 30 FPS or 40 FPS RAW stills, without AF?
> 
> I suspect that there is a lot more to these exciting numbers than we're getting. It's very likely that each spec has one or two serious caveats that totally changes the "shock factor" of each number at first glance...



It's possible that canon setup two teams here:
- One to develop a sensor/body for the "can't miss the olympics" 1DX3, for folks who have a stable of EF glass.
- One for next gen sensors/bodies, that was more of a moonshot with softer timelines.

The 1DX3 would have been locked in years ago, but an R5 could be a bigger risk/reward situation. If some patents and engineering bets paid off, then you'd get this camera. If not, they could fall back to 1D3 level sensors. Boeing did that with the 747 (tried and true) being developed concurrently with a supersonic jet. Granted that effort did not work out for Boeing 

I am still waiting to see asterisks and real specs and remain super skeptical (especially 8K raw in an ILC body!). But we've heard unusually candid talk from canon execs for the last 3+ years about how they recognized they were late with 4K and mirrorless in general. So... cautiously optimistic?


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> You're on a roll today.


I just need to constrain myself if that one guy comes along and quotes every post in one fell swoop!


----------



## unfocused (Jan 28, 2020)

At the risk of being seriously abused, what is about these specs that is making so many people excited?

(Listing only the CR3 specs)

*Named the Canon EOS R5
45mp full-frame CMOS sensor
IBIS
12fps mechanical, 20fps electronic
8K @ 30fps RAW
4K @ 120fps
Built-in 5GHz WiFi
New battery, but the same shape and compatibility as the EOS 5D Mark IV
Launching in July 2020* 

I guess I'm showing my bias for stills, but unless they have corrected some things I'm not super-excited.

Items that need correction:

Single spot autofocus 
Faster autofocusing with less hunting
More accurate autofocus, particularly on eye and face selection (needs to lock on selected subject)
Better ergonomics overall

I'm not saying these things won't happen. I hope they do. But I'm having a hard time reconciling the CR 3 specs with all the excitement.


----------



## tron (Jan 28, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> I hope Canon does not prioritize spec over performance and reliability. I picked up a 90d to test and found that it struggled with AF burst shooting. The AF would lock and pretty fast, but wander as the burst hit 7-8 shots. I also saw this on shorter burts, but it ws most prevalent when you got up to around 7-8 shots. I would eventually find it's way back to lock if the burst was long enough. I believe this was processor overload as it was dealing with continuous calculation of theAF combined with writing files to the card. Where I am going with this is that I hope they have enough processing power to provide reliable AF while providing the other camera functions. I would take less MPX/frame rate to have a killer AF tracking system.


Assuming you can select the number of frames per second just like 7DII did you try it with 7 or 8 fps?


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 28, 2020)

slclick said:


> I just need to constrain myself if that one guy comes along and quotes every post in one fell swoop!


I just figured you were raiding the mini-bar again.


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

unfocused said:


> At the risk of being seriously abused, what is about these specs that is making so many people excited?
> 
> (Listing only the CR3 specs)
> 
> ...


Not everything is always shown or known in CR3's and sometimes 4's. Just because it's not listed doesn't mean it won't be there. Patience on the info front, it will continue to trickle in and we'll be better suited for our rage, contentment or bewilderment.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 28, 2020)

unfocused said:


> At the risk of being seriously abused, what is about these specs that is making so many people excited?
> 
> Items that need correction:
> 
> ...



- That frame rate and mp count are a great combo for an "all around" camera and are exciting to me for sure. My biggest gripe with my 5D4 is frame rate when I'm shooting sports for friends. 20 fps silent shutter? My second gripe with the 5D4 is shooting in "quiet" settings such as work conferences.
- The youtube contingent seems to say that the 1D3's mirrorless AF performance is on par with its OVF performance,
- Eye AF is something canon is heavily focused on (zing) and has improved over time even in released bodies. I don't have an R, but have read pretty solid things about the latest firmware.

But things like AF specs (aside from "63 point all cross type!") don't often make these spec lists IIRC because they're hard to quantify. I agree canon's AF isn't always class leading (at least in the hands of an amateur like me) but I don't read anything nefarious into their omission here.


----------



## Matthew Saville (Jan 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> It's possible that canon setup two teams here:
> - One to develop a sensor/body for the "can't miss the olympics" 1DX3, for folks who have a stable of EF glass.
> - One for next gen sensors/bodies, that was more of a moonshot with softer timelines.
> 
> ...


Oh my god, an intelligent conversation. Thank you!

Personally, I'm betting on the "lost in translation" hypothesis with a lot of these specs. For example, 8K RAW is likely referring to the capability of 45-MP raw frames to produce 8K still frames for a timelapse video. 

20 FPS stills could be in APS-C crop mode, since that is in keeping with the throughput speed of a 1DX3. In fact, we have a perfect example of this type of dual-purpose full-frame camera in the Nikon D850; a 45MP sensor that crops to DX mode and thereby offers the speed of the 20MP Nikon D500.

All in all, this reeks of a passing, insufficient glance at a "real" spec sheet with a fill-in-the-blanks approach to interpreting the numbers gleaned by that fleeting glance.


----------



## brad-man (Jan 28, 2020)

unfocused said:


> *At the risk of being seriously abused, what is about these specs that is making so many people excited?*
> 
> (Listing only the CR3 specs)
> 
> ...


The removal of the touchbar...


----------



## kaitlyn2004 (Jan 28, 2020)

I was so tempted to hold out for a good EOS R to upgrade/replace my 5D Mark IV... but now I'm second guessing. I find myself shifting from roadside/short hike landscape work to longer trips and more outdoor/adventure photography. As such - both weight and space/volume become a bigger concern.

The RF lens lineup looks spectacular... but from a weight AND volume standpoint, I think it would be taking me the opposite way (at least until canon releases more non-crazy-good RF lenses...)

No EOS R in my future?


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I just figured you were raiding the mini-bar again.


But it's Dry January! I wish I was somewhere with a mini bar, that would mean I was at the beach.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

mpmark said:


> Larger photosite do not gather more light then smaller ones? uuhhh, ok? sure!



Which part of this (that you failed to address) didn't you understand?

"Each gathers less, but the total is the same and the total is what matters. "


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jan 28, 2020)

J.NicDavidson said:


> Take my money now please!



It's $4999! WOW!!


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> It's $4999! WOW!!


You pre-ordered too? Brotha!


----------



## Kit. (Jan 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I do not for a minute believe these specs. I very, very much look forward to being wrong. I've been worried about my 5D4 and EF lenses losing their value but if this is actually the spec list I straight up won't care.


Why would your EF lenses lose their value? Mine definitely wouldn't.



Normalnorm said:


> 5Ghz Wifi sounds promising but the effort falls flat if they don't get an app that is worth a [email protected]


If I buy this camera, I promise to write an app for it that won't suck


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 28, 2020)

Grimbald said:


> I'd honestly give up a half a stop of DR over a Sony if I could get a similar Canon camera. I dropped my 5d in the mud, it fell on rocks a few times in the mountains, has cracks and scratches all over it... Still works perfectly.



Now I'd be careful with the second-hand 5D market...


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Why would your EF lenses lose their value? Mine definitely wouldn't.
> 
> 
> If I buy this camera, I promise to write an app for it that won't suck


Canon gear holds it's value better than most imaging stuff. I frequently sell my lenses for more than I bought them for. This body and RF means nothing to the value of dslr's and EF glass.


----------



## dba101 (Jan 28, 2020)

It’s not about specs it’s about composition.


----------



## IcyBergs (Jan 28, 2020)

unfocused said:


> At the risk of being seriously abused, what is about these specs that is making so many people excited?
> 
> (Listing only the CR3 specs)
> 
> ...


How could you forget to mention dual card slots in your "need correction" list?


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

dba101 said:


> It’s not about specs it’s about composition.


It's not about composition it's about nomenclature!









R5 (band) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

IcyBergs said:


> How could you forget to mention dual card slots in your "need correction" list?


I am super concerned with the lack of gorilla glass in the diopter


----------



## neurorx (Jan 28, 2020)

photographer said:


> A $3000 USD price tag would destroy the used cameras market.


And really ramp up the competition between camera companies....


----------



## Romain (Jan 28, 2020)

TRY TO UNDERSTAND... Photography and videography have the same destiny, it's a fact since the beginning mates... Talking about video specs here is very fun because photographers are always underestimating the importance of the increasing of the video resolution. When you will burst in 8K at 30fps in video mode (or more res, in RAW, at ISO 300 000 000 with DPAF in 2040), what will photography become?.. Something marginal more and more, a long exposure life style, an artistic tool... Maybe i miss some technical issues, but we walked on moon, or was it fake??... Maybe i'm dreaming sometimes, i don't know... Or you're denying!! Haha


----------



## Otara (Jan 28, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Even IF you write off the 8K as a mistranslation, the base specs still are in wishful thinking territory. 45 @ 20fps? Even with no mechanical shutter, or no AF, that is still more data than any other camera moves around. That's not incremental.
> 
> "R5" - 45x20 = 900mp/s
> A74 - 60x10 = 600
> ...



Onky thing I can think of to explain is a reduced resolution 12 bit burst mode like the M6 II. But more likely just wrong - maybe they're doing a group sweep of the leakers and having fun at the same time.


----------



## Matthew Saville (Jan 28, 2020)

kaitlyn2004 said:


> I was so tempted to hold out for a good EOS R to upgrade/replace my 5D Mark IV... but now I'm second guessing. I find myself shifting from roadside/short hike landscape work to longer trips and more outdoor/adventure photography. As such - both weight and space/volume become a bigger concern.
> 
> The RF lens lineup looks spectacular... but from a weight AND volume standpoint, I think it would be taking me the opposite way (at least until canon releases more non-crazy-good RF lenses...)
> 
> No EOS R in my future?


Hiking/backpacking? EOS RP, (or successor with better sensor) ...and wait for Tamron's incredible f/2.8 (Sony FE) zooms to arrive.

Alternately, the EF-M system is AWESOME for ultralight trail running/backpacking! Again, just gotta be willing to fill some of the missing links with third-party options, such as the Rokinon 12mm f/2...


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

Romain said:


> TRY TO UNDERSTAND... Photography and videography have the same destiny, it's a fact since the beginning mates... Talking about video specs here is very fun because photographers are always underestimating the importance of the increasing of the video resolution. When you will burst in 8K at 30fps in video mode (or more res, in RAW, at ISO 300 000 000 with DPAF in 2040), what will photography become?.. Something marginal more and more, a long exposure life style, an artistic tool... Maybe i miss some technical issues, but we walked on moon, or was it fake??... Maybe i'm dreaming sometimes, i don't know... Or you denying!! Haha


you lost your argument with "since the beginning..."


----------



## Dragon (Jan 28, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> The pixel density is too low to replace a 7D Mark II for long-reach applications (17MP in APS-c mode) and no information about the usability of the viewfinder (I find all Sony's and both Canon's to be unusable, so whether or not I ever switch away from SLRs depends heavily on this point).


An 8% difference in linear resolution with the benefit of a FF field of view and pixel density is "too low"? Please. If you want higher pixel density, wait for the hi res version. You won't get the high frame rate, but you will get 90D pixel density or thereabouts.


----------



## Mark3794 (Jan 28, 2020)

8k 30fps raw, 4k120fps... so you are telling me Harryfilm was right all this time?


----------



## AJ (Jan 28, 2020)

Holy cow. It's hard to believe this will be true. But if it is, it is. IBIS, 8k, [email protected], [email protected] This is revolutionary.
Although it's called R5, it's essentially the mythical 3D that everyone has dreamed about for years.
I bet it will have eight card slots.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

unfocused said:


> At the risk of being seriously abused, what is about these specs that is making so many people excited?
> 
> (Listing only the CR3 specs)
> 
> ...



Not much for me. I'm guessing people are excited about using the thing as a video camera, more than anything. Otherwise, there's no point in making it mirrorless and the still specs are good, but not spectacular.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

Dragon said:


> An 8% difference in linear resolution with the benefit of a FF field of view and pixel density is "too low"?



Yes. I want an upgrade, not a down-grade.



> Please. If you want higher pixel density, wait for the hi res version. You won't get the high frame rate, but you will get 90D pixel density or thereabouts.



I'd be interested in a 7D with a version of the 90D sensor.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 28, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Why would your EF lenses lose their value? Mine definitely wouldn't.



I mean you can define value a lot of ways, but I would define it as the price I can get on the open market. I would absolutely expect if canon released a killer RF body on the heels of an announcement that they will be investing less in new EF models that fair market prices on used glass would drop.

They would, of course, continue to produce spectacular images.


----------



## AlanF (Jan 28, 2020)

unfocused said:


> At the risk of being seriously abused, what is about these specs that is making so many people excited?
> 
> (Listing only the CR3 specs)
> 
> ...


Without AA-filter.


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

Dragon said:


> An 8% difference in linear resolution with the benefit of a FF field of view and pixel density is "too low"? Please. If you want higher pixel density, wait for the hi res version. You won't get the high frame rate, but you will get 90D pixel density or thereabouts.


I am amazed how so many tech geeks can be involved in an artistic craft. It's amazing! (unless you're shooting brick walls that is) Me, I'm seriously right brained and cannot get involved in the sensor hooha but give me a Lensbaby and BAM!!!


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Without AA-filter.



That would be tragic.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

slclick said:


> I am amazed how so many tech geeks can be involved in an artistic craft. It's amazing! (unless you're shooting brick walls that is) Me, I'm seriously right brained and cannot get involved in the sensor hooha but give me a Lensbaby and BAM!!!



I'm a tech geek (MS EE), I don't think photography is an art, and I have close to 500,000 images under management. I don't think I have any pictures of brick walls, but I do have a few thousand test shots taken with various equipment for various reasons.


----------



## Trankilstef (Jan 28, 2020)

No way this would cost less than 4500€...
The Panasonic S1H retails at 4000€/$, and this camera if it is true beats the S1H in every possible way... So we shouldn't except less than 4500€.
I would even go further and say that it will retail at 5000+, in the same range as the Sony a9 series (though it's not the same kind of camera)...


----------



## unfocused (Jan 28, 2020)

slclick said:


> Not everything is always shown or known in CR3's and sometimes 4's. Just because it's not listed doesn't mean it won't be there. Patience on the info front, it will continue to trickle in and we'll be better suited for our rage, contentment or bewilderment.


Sure, but that's why I'm a more than a little perplexed by all the folks who are acting like they just got invited upstairs by Margot Robbie.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 28, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Yes. I want an upgrade, not a down-grade.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be interested in a 7D with a version of the 90D sensor.


You will get a 40-45 MP R and a 75-80 MP R. You will not get an APS-c R or a replacement for the 7D II. If the 7D II was selling decently, it would have been replaced at least a year ago. Your choice is a 90D or a FF R. In a shrinking market, some niches have to be covered by different means and the mentioned choices aren't bad at all. I would like to see and M5 II, but not holding my breath for much the same set of reasons. Most of the M market is entry level and the M6 II is intended to mop up the more enthusiastic crowd. Such is life.


----------



## Aaron D (Jan 28, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> and for the boomers that don’tthink mirrorless is the future well...



To the non-boomers who think _they've_ got my generation figured out: Whatever.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 28, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Without AA-filter.


I assume you mean that's on your wish list. I'm guessing instead we will get the new 1Dx III filter in most new Canon releases.


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Sure, but that's why I'm a more than a little perplexed by all the folks who are acting like they just got invited upstairs by Margot Robbie.


That's funny, Margot Robbie (You're going to need a 1DX3 with her around) . I was thinking more Dua Lipa.


----------



## AlanF (Jan 28, 2020)

The Nikon Z7 has a 45.7 Mpx sensor. Surely not?


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> To the non-boomers who think _they've_ got my generation figured out: Whatever.


Is your generation the Silent Generation?


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

Dragon said:


> You will get a 40-45 MP R and a 75-80 MP R. You will not get an APS-c R or a replacement for the 7D II. If the 7D II was selling decently, it would have been replaced at least a year ago. Your choice is a 90D or a FF R.



Then I'll keep the 7DII, and never give them any more of my money. Neither option is acceptable.


----------



## slclick (Jan 28, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Then I'll keep the 7DII, and never give them any more of my money. Neither option is acceptable.


Nor is the crappy 6400 or over iso on that body, so there's that. Yeah, I owned one.


----------



## AlanF (Jan 28, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I assume you mean that's on your wish list. I'm guessing instead we will get the new 1Dx III filter in most new Canon releases.


Definitely on my wish list. The 32Mpx D90 sensor only just outresolves 20 Mpx sensors that lack the filter or the 50Mpx 5DSR cropped.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 28, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Then I'll keep the 7DII, and never give them any more of my money. Neither option is acceptable.


Good engineers are very careful with the use of the word "never"  .


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 28, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I'm a tech geek (MS EE), I don't think photography is an art, and I have close to 500,000 images under management. I don't think I have any pictures of brick walls, but I do have a few thousand test shots taken with various equipment for various reasons.


Cameras are like paintbrushes, anybody can pick them up and use them, most paint walls with a tin of emulsion from Home Depot or Lowes, some paint the Sistine chapel.

Your photography might not be art, and there is no shame in that, but to imply some artists don’t use photography as a medium goes too far. Photography can be art but most photography isn’t, also most photographers are not artists But some are.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 28, 2020)

slclick said:


> Nor is the crappy 6400 or over iso on that body, so there's that. Yeah, I owned one.



And yet, I have ISO 16000 images I've used.

I have fast glass too.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Cameras are like paintbrushes, anybody can pick them up and use them, most paint walls with a tin of emulsion from Home Depot or Lowes, some paint the Sistine chapel.
> 
> Your photography might not be art, and there is no shame in that, but to imply some artists don’t use photography as a medium goes too far. Photography can be art but most photography isn’t, also most photographers are not artists But some are.



I've never seen any photography I consider art, and I have visited art museums with photography sections.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 29, 2020)

Maybe Canon just decided to turn off cruise control, throw away the “cripple hammer” for awhile and show everyone what they can do with the afterburners fired up. It wouldn’t be the first time. I don’t think there's anything in these specs that can’t be done right now, affordably, with existing technology if Canon thinks outside their box. It's always better to cannibalize your own products before your competitors do.
And just to torch the market, my guess is $2,799. Show 'em your six, Canon!


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Good engineers are very careful with the use of the word "never"  .



Never, until they come up with a true upgrade or my needs drastically change from now.

In 2016 I upgraded from a full-frame 5D to the crop 7DII, and that was a great choice for me. My lens kit is now built around that camera, and four of my lenses are crop-lenses.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> Sony is DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED
> 
> Wait did I do this right?


Yes


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> No, that's a myth too.
> 
> Each gathers less, but the total is the same and the total is what matters.



That's incorrect and things are more complicated. There's well capacity factor and it contributes to the DR. And well capacity depends on the pixel size, although there are methods to improve it on smaller pixels. More on this you can find in this good article https://clarkvision.com/articles/does.pixel.size.matter/#sensorconstant


----------



## Romain (Jan 29, 2020)

slclick said:


> you lost your argument with "since the beginning..."


In fact you're absolutely right, photography came first... You agree with our human ignorances of the 19th century since we discover that... That what??... Guess what  Photography=Videography ... Think faster! Exponential curves!.. Tech is in!..


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> To the non-boomers who think _they've_ got my generation figured out: Whatever.


As they tap away on computers invented by... oops.


----------



## neurorx (Jan 29, 2020)

I really wonder if the ISO performance will be better or the same as the 5D4. The Sony aR74 seems to suffer here compared to the 3.


----------



## mjg79 (Jan 29, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Why would your EF lenses lose their value? Mine definitely wouldn't.
> 
> 
> If I buy this camera, I promise to write an app for it that won't suck



Indeed - if Canon brings out bodies with IBIS it will likely stabilise used prices of a lot of EF glass. It can be perfectly adapted to the new system. Case in point - the RF 24-70/2.8 is optically almost the same as the EF but does have IS. If we get an R5 with IBIS anyone wanting a 2.8 24-70 will be able to save a small fortune adapting the EF model, have the stabilised sensor and likely be very happy.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 29, 2020)

Yikes! Those are some Monster specs. Interesting that it’ll be such a long lead time to shipping. I guess Canon is still working the kinks out. That is going to be one very impressive bit of kit. I’m guessing the value of my used 5D Mark IV just dropped about a thousand dollars.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Maybe Canon just decided to turn off cruise control, throw away the “cripple hammer” for awhile and show everyone what they can do with the afterburners fired up. It wouldn’t be the first time. I don’t think there's anything in these specs that can’t be done right now, affordably, with existing technology if Canon thinks outside their box. It's always better to cannibalize your own products before your competitors do.
> And just to torch the market, my guess is $2,799. Show 'em your six, Canon!



8k raw is RED territory, and look what they have to do to process a billion pixels per second and save them out.


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I've never seen any photography I consider art, and I have visited art museums with photography sections.


With respect, I think you're applying a pretty strict definition of 'art' to say that no photographs achieve it. A lot of people who consider themselves artists (and are generally considered to be so by society as a whole) produce what they consider to be art using photography. And a lot of people, including every major art gallery and museum in the world, acquires those works on the basis that they are art. And to achieve some of the effects these artists use in producing their works can take a lot of MP, very high ISO, and a variety of fancy techniques/features that most of us would never use.


----------



## slclick (Jan 29, 2020)

Romain said:


> In fact you're absolutely right, photography came first... You agree with our human ignorances of the 19th century since we discover that... That what??... Guess what  Photography=Videography ... Think faster! Exponential curves!.. Tech is in!..


You'll NEVER convince me, and that has nothing to do with engineering


----------



## Kit. (Jan 29, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I mean you can define value a lot of ways, but I would define it as the price I can get on the open market. I would absolutely expect if canon released a killer RF body on the heels of an announcement that they will be investing less in new EF models that fair market prices on used glass would drop.


Personally, I am not going to sell my TS-E 17 or 100-400 II any time soon. Still, I don't see how releasing such a body would negatively affect their price on the open market.


----------



## Aaron D (Jan 29, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is your generation the Silent Generation?


Mind your manners, whippersnapper.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 29, 2020)

Honest question here, I don't know for sure... Is there really that much "processing" that needs to happen in a raw video format? I mean it's not like the camera has to crunch a bunch of numbers to encode what's coming from the sensor into whatever compressed format you're saving to... Just open up the pipeline between the sensor and the memory card, and let the data flow, right? Seems like up to now we have been largely limited by memory card write speed, but with CF express, that limitation is gone.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> The pixel density is too low to replace a 7D Mark II for long-reach applications (17MP in APS-c mode) and no information about the usability of the viewfinder (I find all Sony's and both Canon's to be unusable, so whether or not I ever switch away from SLRs depends heavily on this point).


It is close however and I was wandering if it could be better to sacrifice just a little (20->17 or 50->45 if you will) at low light situations to gain in lower noise. And the IQ will be generations better than that of 7DII.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> With respect, I think you're applying a pretty strict definition of 'art' to say that no photographs achieve it. A lot of people who consider themselves artists (and are generally considered to be so by society as a whole) produce what they consider to be art using photography.



I know.



> And a lot of people, including every major art gallery and museum in the world, acquires those works on the basis that they are art. And to achieve some of the effects these artists use in producing their works can take a lot of MP, very high ISO, and a variety of fancy techniques/features that most of us would never use.



I don't consider it art unless you start with nothing, like the composer and a blank sheet of music, a sculptor with a block of marble, a painter with a blank canvas, or a sculptor with a lump of clay. Using technology to record what's already there is a skill or craft, not an art. It's the difference between the composer of a piece of music and the audio technician who records the performance in the studio. The audio technician isn't an artist. He has to have skill and that skill matters a lot for the final result, I just wouldn't call it art because it's not being created from nothing, just recorded. Like photography.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Honest question here, I don't know for sure... Is there really that much "processing" that needs to happen in a raw video format?



Compression.



> I mean it's not like the camera has to crunch a bunch of numbers to encode what's coming from the sensor into whatever compressed format you're saving to... Just open up the pipeline between the sensor and the memory card, and let the data flow, right? Seems like up to now we have been largely limited by memory card write speed, but with CF express, that limitation is gone.



Compression is a CPU-intensive process. Imagine zipping a 2 gigabyte file every second.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I've never seen any photography I consider art, and I have visited art museums with photography sections.


But somebody considers it art, or it wouldn't be in the museum.


----------



## mjg79 (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> At the risk of being seriously abused, what is about these specs that is making so many people excited?
> 
> (Listing only the CR3 specs)
> 
> ...



I think you must remember that Canon cameras are nearly always much better than their specs suggest. So if Canon really brings out a camera with these top level specs then it will be a fair bet we will see an incredible camera. Sony cameras for example often have very good specs but you'll often find many caveats (this or that feature doesn't work if you want high fps etc) then there are all the other downsides. Most were expecting to get maybe a high res camera that didn't have a good frame rate or video specs, as Canon has tended to really try to segment the market. Just look at the 5Ds for example. Having said that Sony and Nikon are now consistently offering high res, high fps, fully featured bodies and sooner or later Canon was going to have to respond to some extent.

You're right though that a lot of it is aimed at video but that becomes ever more popular. 

Many are excited about the prospect of IBIS as Canon has never put it in any camera before. In my case I want it for adapting old glass, in particular a lot of EF glass that will allow me to avoid buying too much RF glass while it is priced high over the coming year or two. If there is no IBIS R camera then I am going to bite the bullet some point this year and get the RF 24-70 L 2.8 IS as having a stabilised 2.8 normal zoom is so useful. However if they bring out an IBIS model with these sort of specs it means I can happily keep using my EF 24-70L adapted. Many people have enormous collections of EF mount glasss so it's potentially a big deal.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> It is close however and I was wandering if it could be better to sacrifice just a little (20->17 or 50->45 if you will) at low light situations to gain in lower noise.



You don't get lower noise from going to lower pixel counts, you get lower noise from going to a larger sensor and preserving the same f-stop.


----------



## Romain (Jan 29, 2020)

slclick said:


> You'll NEVER convince me, and that has nothing to do with engineering


Yes, has nothing to do with engineering, but with the amazing techs coming earlier, soon or later, engineers are committed in every ways, hmmm


----------



## Kit. (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I don't consider it art unless you start with nothing, like the composer and a blank sheet of music, a sculptor with a block of marble, a painter with a blank canvas, or a sculptor with a lump of clay.


But why would you call it "nothing"?


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> But somebody considers it art, or it wouldn't be in the museum.



I know. I think they're all wrong.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> You don't get lower noise from going to lower pixel counts, you get lower noise from going to a larger sensor and preserving the same f-stop.


I was talking about noise reduction due to the newer generation camera. Since it seems it will be available before the 80 or so mpixel body and your choice will be the new 45 one vs 5DsR.


----------



## Aaron D (Jan 29, 2020)

Lovely as this R5 might be, I'm already behind by two purchases. I need an RF 24-70 and RF 70-200 first.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Kit. said:


> But why would you call it "nothing"?


Kinda makes the clay and paper makers *more artists than the sculptor and painter.*


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> Lovely as this R5 might be, I'm already behind by two purchases. I need an RF 24-70 and RF 70-200 first.


Got the 15-35 and 24-70. I do not feel the need of 70-200 yet. I have the EF70-200II which has IS.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> I think you must remember that Canon cameras are nearly always much better than their specs suggest.



Errm so for example, if they have 45Mp in the spec sheet, the camera will actually deliver 50Mp?


----------



## slclick (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Kinda makes the clay and paper makers *more artists than the sculptor and painter.*


We are ALL keyboard artists


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

slclick said:


> We are ALL keyboard artists


yes. Trying to get to 30 pages by midnight.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Never, until they come up with a true upgrade or my needs drastically change from now.
> 
> In 2016 I upgraded from a full-frame 5D to the crop 7DII, and that was a great choice for me. My lens kit is now built around that camera, and four of my lenses are crop-lenses.


R series cameras are perfectly happy with EF-s Lenses and have a crop mode to accommodate them. I did detect a bit of qualification in that last "never"  .


----------



## Aaron D (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I don't consider it art .....



I hate to get sucked into the 'photography-is-or-isn't-art' worm hole, but I can't help it: 

I think 'art' is used where 'good' is what's meant--as a value statement. In my opinion, anyway,: art is art. Be it good art or be it bad art. Whether you like it or you don't like it. Nobody says, "Ahh now listen to that! That's _music_!" as if it's not _music_ if it isn't good music.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> I hate to get sucked into the 'photography-is-or-isn't-art' worm hole, but I can't help it:
> 
> I think 'art' is used where 'good' is what's meant--as a value statement. In my opinion, anyway,: art is art. Be it good art or be it bad art. Whether you like it or you don't like it. Nobody says, "Ahh now listen to that! That's _music_!" as if it's not _music_ if it isn't good music.


The trees get planted, the clay gets dug, and the cameras are made from sand and fossils.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I know. I think they're all wrong.


Looks like they finally got cell coverage on the Island of Misfit Toys. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Jan 29, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Even IF you write off the 8K as a mistranslation, the base specs still are in wishful thinking territory. 45 @ 20fps? Even with no mechanical shutter, or no AF, that is still more data than any other camera moves around. That's not incremental.
> 
> "R5" - 45x20 = 900mp/s
> A74 - 60x10 = 600
> ...


I'm not sure how informative this is. My 20 MP Sony RX10 Mark IV bridge camera can do 24 fps = 480 mp/s which is faster than the 1DX3! It's over two years older and less than 1/4 of the price of the 1DX3 - probably 1/8 of the price if you make an allowance for the excellent lens. It doesn't seem so far fetched to suggest that the R5 could have double the throughput of my RX10iv.


----------



## Aaron D (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I don't consider it art unless you start with nothing, like the composer and a blank sheet of music, ...



So a musician isn't a musician unless he builds his own piano, right?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> I was talking about noise reduction due to the newer generation camera. Since it seems it will be available before the 80 or so mpixel body and your choice will be the new 45 one vs 5DsR.



If it's really 45Mp, *and* Canon also releases an 80Mp model, I'll probably struggle to choose between high-res and high-DR (as I believe 45Mp one will have a better DR).
45Mp is nearly what I'd like to have in terms of resolution but slightly below the expectations, I'd better have 50+Mp.

I guess if Canon promises to match at least 5DIV's performance, I'll even think of preorderng this 45Mp beast. If they match A7RIII, it's a must buy.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> So a musician isn't a musician unless he builds his own piano, right?


You just got sucked in.  You can still save yourself.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> R series cameras are perfectly happy with EF-s Lenses and have a crop mode to accommodate them. I did detect a bit of qualification in that last "never"  .



But none (yet) even have the same pixel density as my 7DII, and all have vastly inferior viewfinders and battery life.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> So a musician isn't a musician unless he builds his own piano, right?



A musician is always a musician. They aren't an artist unless they compose their own music or improvise during performance.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Compression.
> 
> 
> 
> Compression is a CPU-intensive process. Imagine zipping a 2 gigabyte file every second.


Ummm... Compression when recording a raw video? I think the entire idea behind raw video is that there is no compression taking place. That's what I'm asking... People seem to be unable to believe that a camera could ever handle this level of video, but my question is what does the camera really need to "process" when you're shooting a raw format. My thought is that raw video recording may be less taxing on the processing power of a camera than recording to a compressed format.


----------



## Adelino (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Yeah, don't know why anyone thinks this is "boomer" mentality. Kinda silly.


The just like saying the ok boomer thing


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> So a musician isn't a musician unless he builds his own piano, right?



btw I'm convinced it's always better if you start playing a good instrument as a beginner, not a crappy one. You may not be able to afford a good piano/guitar/whatever as a learner but purely for skill development it's better to have a quality instrument. 

I suspect the same applies to photography and cameras, but many people think the gear doesn't matter.


----------



## Adelino (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> $3,750


$3751


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Adelino said:


> The just like saying the ok boomer thing


yup, unless one is also a boomer.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> Assuming you can select the number of frames per second just like 7DII did you try it with 7 or 8 fps?



I am going off memory here, but I think you could choose single, 7fps or 10fps. I didn't not test thourghly at 7fps, but I do remember some miss-focus. It was more consistent and repeatable at 10 fps setting.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> btw I'm convinced it's always better if you start playing a good instrument as a beginner, not a crappy one. You may not be able to afford a good piano/guitar/whatever as a learner but purely for skill development it's better to have a quality instrument.
> 
> I suspect the same applies to photography and cameras, but many people think the gear doesn't matter.


I started guitar with a Martin. Sold it to buy a lens and thought a Yamaha would be just as fun. Nope. Now I still can't play, but it is far less enjoyable. I agree with you.  I no longer have that lens and nobody wants the Yamaha.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Ummm... Compression when recording a raw video? I think the entire idea behind raw video is that there is no compression taking place. That's what I'm asking... People seem to be unable to believe that a camera could ever handle this level of video, but my question is what does the camera really need to "process" when you're shooting a raw format. My thought is that raw video recording may be less taxing on the processing power of a camera than recording to a compressed format.



I think you'd need some level of compression here.

33mp x 14 bit x 30 fps = 13860 Mbps. Convert bits to bytes and that's ~1,700 MBps. Faster than most (all?) CFe cards. I am assuming there is also quite of bit of processing involved in taking the stream of bits off the sensor and conforming them to whatever the CFe card's filesystem is. I'm no EE but pretty sure you can't just point the sensor's firehose at your PCIe bus.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

Steve Balcombe said:


> I'm not sure how informative this is. My 20 MP Sony RX10 Mark IV bridge camera can do 24 fps = 480 mp/s which is faster than the 1DX3! It's over two years older and less than 1/4 of the price of the 1DX3 - probably 1/8 of the price if you make an allowance for the excellent lens. It doesn't seem so far fetched to suggest that the R5 could have double the throughput of my RX10iv.



Good point. Maybe recent canon processing limitations have set my standards too low


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I started guitar with a Martin. Sold it to buy a lens and thought a Yamaha would be just as fun. Nope. Now I still can't play, but it is far less enjoyable. I agree with you.  I no longer have that lens and nobody wants the Yamaha.


Steve Earle from Guitar Town.

Everybody told me you can't get far
On thirty-seven dollars and a jap guitar
Now I'm smokin' into Texas with the hammer down
And a rockin' little combo from the Guitar Town

Yamaha makes some nice instruments but nothing ages like a Martin Dreadnought.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Now I still can't play, but it is far less enjoyable.


Exactly. In music, you have to be persistent and spend a lot of time practicing. With a good guitar, you'll be producing some good rewarding enjoyable sounds occasionally and it encourages you to keep practicing. Poor quality instrument will cause disappointment and discouragement.

Again I believe the same applies to photography and to any other field except theoretical science. There you'd better start with a blackboard, chalk, piece of paper and a pencil, not a supercomputer.


----------



## Aaron D (Jan 29, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> btw I'm convinced it's always better if you start playing a good instrument as a beginner, not a crappy one. You may not be able to afford a good piano/guitar/whatever as a learner but purely for skill development it's better to have a quality instrument.
> 
> I suspect the same applies to photography and cameras, but many people think the gear doesn't matter.


And what's more is I think there's a bias against good equipment in the 'art world' _and_ against knowing how to use it. Kind of a righteous primitivism. Though I do think it's possible to make good photos with an awful camera, or a simple one--just like the old blues guys made wonderful music using old beater guitars. But bad tools aren't a prerequisite by any means!


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Ummm... Compression when recording a raw video?



Yes.



> I think the entire idea behind raw video is that there is no compression taking place.



No, the entire idea is that no *processing* (demosaicing, color calibration, black point, gamma, white balance, etc.) is going on.



> That's what I'm asking... People seem to be unable to believe that a camera could ever handle this level of video



No, REDs handle more, but they're expensive and write to ultra-fast SSDs.



> but my question is what does the camera really need to "process" when you're shooting a raw format.



Nothing - raw means "uncooked".


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> If it's really 45Mp, *and* Canon also releases an 80Mp model, I'll probably struggle to choose between high-res and high-DR (as I believe 45Mp one will have a better DR).
> 45Mp is nearly what I'd like to have in terms of resolution but slightly below the expectations, I'd better have 50+Mp.
> 
> I guess if Canon promises to match at least 5DIV's performance, I'll even think of preorderng this 45Mp beast. If they match A7RIII, it's a must buy.


I will be in between too. I use 5DIV for low light, night, internal spaces and general purpose and 5DsR (and less 7DII) for birding...


----------



## PGSanta (Jan 29, 2020)

The video specs don't make any sense. Canon doesn't need to go for Sony's jugular, and this would amount to going for Sony's jugular in sparking a new spec race.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

PGSanta said:


> The video specs don't make any sense. Canon doesn't need to go for Sony's jugular, and this would amount to going for Sony's jugular in sparking a new spec race.


In the present contracting market, the jugulars of Nikon and Sony are exactly what are needed to stay alive. Canon will drink from them.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> 8k raw is RED territory, and look what they have to do to process a billion pixels per second and save them out.


Yes, but ... Are you saying Canon can’t make or buy something faster? Limits are broken every day in tech. Business considerations aside, I don’t think there’s any reason Canon can't obtain that performance or better.


----------



## Aaron D (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> A musician is always a musician. They aren't an artist unless they compose their own music or improvise during performance.


But how is composing and improvising on a tool manufactured by someone else different than capturing a view or moment that no-one else has _on a camera_? Just an instrument isn't it?

And to follow your tangent (down the rabbit hole): 

A photographer is always a photographer. I think they're an artist when they capture a scene or an instant that isn't somebody else's inspiration or idea. But somewhere else I said, doesn't mean either--musician or photographer--is any good at it. I wish people would stop using the word 'artist' like it's some holy achievement of perfection. Angelic choirs, parting clouds, yada yada.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

I wonder what everyone will say if a Canon camera with these specifications exactly comes with only 1 slot


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

TedYork said:


> 45 megapixels - so disappointing.


Did you miss the part that this camera will be the 5DIV replacement not the 5DsR one?


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

TedYork said:


> pretty disappointing if the resolution is not going to beat the 5DSR let alone Sony.


Somehow, with these specs, 5mp isn't going to be missed. There is plenty a 5DSr can't do that this camera will. The high resolution model is coming.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

I wonder If I need 80mpixels to shoot this:


----------



## HikeBike (Jan 29, 2020)

Sorry...you had me until the video specs.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

HikeBike said:


> Sorry...you had me until the video specs.


It will shoot 8K during winter only to avoid excess heating


----------



## VICYASA (Jan 29, 2020)

WHAT would be a realistic price point for this came with those specifications? Anyone? Would love to hear opinions. Thanks!!!


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

3500 to 3800 I believe.


----------



## Laslen (Jan 29, 2020)

I see history repeating itself. I remember when everyone was hyping up the EOS R, saying it would be the amazing leap in mirrorless technology that would dethrone Sony.

Canon doesn't need to dethrone Sony, they *only* need to be competitive, and prevent more customers from switching. *They need to match Sony.* So far, they have failed in even coming close. Canon is not going to waste a bunch of money designing a camera far better than they need to, while also butchering their own pro flagship DSLR and Cine product lines.

Think about it, guys. Look up the 1DX3 specs and tell me you seriously believe this is even possible in a small MILC body. Be excited for Canon's future, but not delusional. You are setting yourselves up for perpetual disappointment in Canon. Their lenses are what will bring people back, as long as the bodies are competitive.


----------



## vjlex (Jan 29, 2020)

DCAV (don't care about video) buuuut...

I'm glad my dslrs have it! Just because I don't use it that much doesn't mean I don't want it. The 4K on the 5D4 was mostly useless for me, had a hard time recording the ridiculously weighty MJPEG even to my 1000x Lexar. I won't say 'no' to these video specs if Canon is offering them... hopefully with reasonable codecs. It's about time Canon turned all that potential into kinetic. It is 2020 afterall!


----------



## dslrdummy (Jan 29, 2020)

As somebody with a _mere_ 30mp R that shoots 3-5 frames with continuous AF, the possibility of 45mp R at even 8-10 fps with reliable tracking and reduced blackout would be a dream come true. My first digital camera was a beast of a thing @5mp.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

VICYASA said:


> WHAT would be a realistic price point for this came with those specifications? Anyone? Would love to hear opinions. Thanks!!!



If it really has FF 8K 30fps RAW mode without asterisks? They could probably get over $4000. 

Assuming the 8K is a mistranslation, but the rest is true? More like a 5DSR launch price—$3899. I don't know if exchange rates in Japan have changed. I'd put my money on $3699 or so. But that's if the 20fps electronic shutter doesn't have drastic limitations, and same with the 4K 60/120 models.

If you're looking at crops and autofocus limits and 8 bit modes, etc—then I could see a lower intro price. I think they'll want to keep it a few hundred above the A74 to avoid a price war with Sony.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> A musician is always a musician. They aren't an artist unless they compose their own music or improvise during performance.


You just described all the great photographers whose work hangs in galleries around the world.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

Laslen said:


> I see history repeating itself. I remember when everyone was hyping up the EOS R, saying it would be the amazing leap in mirrorless technology that would dethrone Sony.
> 
> Canon doesn't need to dethrone Sony, they *only* need to be competitive, and prevent more customers from switching. *They need to match Sony.* So far, they have failed in even coming close. Canon is not going to waste a bunch of money designing a camera far better than they need to, while also butchering their own pro flagship DSLR and Cine product lines.
> 
> ...



First off it's a gear rumor site. We're doing this for fun. Second, I've seen MUCH more skepticism than anything else in this thread. We remember the 5D4 firmware rumors all too well.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> You just described all the great photographers whose work hangs in galleries around the world.



Yes - people who didn't create the scene they captured, and are thus not artists to me.


----------



## sanj (Jan 29, 2020)

Thank you for this great news.


----------



## davo (Jan 29, 2020)

People keep saying it will have the SCROLL WHEEL. What is a scroll wheel? On my 5D I have a CONTROL DIAL and a MAIN DIAL.


----------



## canonnews (Jan 29, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> If it really has FF 8K 30fps RAW mode without asterisks? They could probably get over $4000.
> 
> Assuming the 8K is a mistranslation, but the rest is true? More like a 5DSR launch price—$3899. I don't know if exchange rates in Japan have changed. I'd put my money on $3699 or so. But that's if the 20fps electronic shutter doesn't have drastic limitations, and same with the 4K 60/120 models.
> 
> If you're looking at crops and autofocus limits and 8 bit modes, etc—then I could see a lower intro price. I think they'll want to keep it a few hundred above the A74 to avoid a price war with Sony.



is it though? as someone else mentioned, 8K30p isn't that much of a heavy lift when the 1DX Mark III does 5.5k60p

Also.. the damn thing needs to process at 8k30 or 8k60p rates anyways for 4K downsampling unless it's using lineskipping, so the RAW is really limited to the card and buffering which if they are using CFExpress - it can handle this.

Talking to Craig this morning (or most of your evening's) and he's pretty confident that the core of the specifications are right.

I don't think 8k30p would necessarily be timelapse or nor would it have to be.

if it does 20 frames per second for stills then it's only 10 fps more to hit that magical 8k RAW.

I recall reading somewhere that canon was going to really "skip" 4K and go right to 8K and I didn't think much of it at the time, but now I'm wondering if that's the truth.

One thing about it - I would expect some kind of firmware updates to the 1DX Mark III to goose it up a bit because it's looking a little pale right now


----------



## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> And what's more is I think there's a bias against good equipment in the 'art world' _and_ against knowing how to use it. Kind of a righteous primitivism...


I think you may not be familiar with a lot of photographers who are artists. Edward Weston, Jerry Uelsmann, Andreas Gursky, Minor White, Stephen Shore and Jeff Wall are just a few that come to mind who are or were excellent craftsmen and also world class artists.


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## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Yes - people who didn't create the scene they captured, and are thus not artists to me.


There none as blind as those who will not see.


----------



## Czardoom (Jan 29, 2020)

Laslen said:


> I see history repeating itself. I remember when everyone was hyping up the EOS R, saying it would be the amazing leap in mirrorless technology that would dethrone Sony.
> 
> Canon doesn't need to dethrone Sony, they *only* need to be competitive, and prevent more customers from switching. *They need to match Sony.* So far, they have failed in even coming close. Canon is not going to waste a bunch of money designing a camera far better than they need to, while also butchering their own pro flagship DSLR and Cine product lines.
> 
> ...


I love when people make definitive statements that Canon is not even close to Sony. Having owned both, I am quite glad they are not. I wouldn't want Sony's inferior color, inferior ergonomics, inferior menus, inferior touch screen functionality, inferior EVF, inferior exposure metering, inferior weather sealing. 

So glad my Canon is not equal to Sony.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> There none as blind as those who will not see.


The difference between snapshots and actually crafting the scene, composition, colors, etc. Correct me if I am wrong @Lee Jay... you only see snapshots? I can think of portrait sessions where I had to set up the lighting, coordinate colors beforehand, and actually plan what I wanted. It is far more involved than just walking up and snapping. If that's the case, fair enough. We all get to decide what is art in our own worlds. One man's art is another's trash. I actually can't see Warhol or Picasso as artists (there are more). If someone I shot thinks the result is art and wants to frame it, that's good enough for me.


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## Czardoom (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> You don't get lower noise from going to lower pixel counts, you get lower noise from going to a larger sensor and preserving the same f-stop.


Had a chance to shoot the same photos with the same settings and same lens using the EOS R in crop mode & with the M5 crop camera. The R in crop mode is just under 12 MP and the M5 is 24 MP. Definitely more noise with the 24 MP camera. Just my real world results. Your results may vary.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

yoms said:


> Any chance we could see a GPS on that camera? This camera seems really nice for travel, GPS is great for that.


It’s a given feature. Why would Canon not to include one in 5D level camera body?


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> You just described all the great photographers whose work hangs in galleries around the world.



Art is very subjective, I do admire and learn from some photographers, but looking at others, all I can say is 'so what...' but they still hang in galleries. Hype, promotion and popularity is a huge contributing factor.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The difference between snapshots and actually crafting the scene, composition, colors, etc. Correct me if I am wrong @Lee Jay... you only see snapshots? I can think of portrait sessions where I had to set up the lighting, coordinate colors beforehand, and actually plan what I wanted. It is far more involved than just walking up and snapping.



If you build everything in the scene, that's art. If there's a person in it (or a plant, or other naturally-occurring object), then it's not, it's craft, skill and technique, like an audio recording technician who creates the acoustics of the room, selects the microphones and their locations, arranges the levels, equalization and effects, records and later mixes the sound. That's a highly-skilled task, but it's not art by my definition.

From wikipedia:

"The three classical branches of art are painting, sculpture and architecture.[3] Music, theatre, film, dance, and other performing arts, as well as literature and other media such as interactive media, are included in a broader definition of the arts.[1][4] Until the 17th century, _art_ referred to any skill or mastery and was not differentiated from crafts or sciences. In modern usage after the 17th century, where aesthetic considerations are paramount, the fine arts are separated and distinguished from acquired skills in general, such as the decorative or applied arts. "

Take a look at this list:


Visual arts
Two-dimensional works
Painting and drawing
Mosaics
Printmaking
Calligraphy
Photography

Three-dimensional works
Architecture
Pottery
Sculpture
Conceptual art


Poetry
Music
I think it's interesting that all those start with nothing, except photography. Photography starts with some sort of scene. If you create the scene, that's art. If you don't, it's not, at least to me.


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## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

canonnews said:


> is it though? as someone else mentioned, 8K30p isn't that much of a heavy lift when the 1DX Mark III does 5.5k60p
> 
> Also.. the damn thing needs to process at 8k30 or 8k60p rates anyways for 4K downsampling unless it's using lineskipping, so the RAW is really limited to the card and buffering which if they are using CFExpress - it can handle this.
> 
> ...



Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it. I just think that if Canon puts a real deal FF (or maybe a 45->33MP crop; still way bigger than a super 35 sensor) 8K RAW camera on the market, they can charge whatever they want. The cheapest I could find is $6K "Z CAM" which looks like the sort of camera that needs about $10,000 of additional gear to be usable.

And I bet it doesn't have canon's color science 

(https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1496580-REG/z_cam_e2_f8_professional_full_frame_8k.html)


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## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> Had a chance to shoot the same photos with the same settings and same lens using the EOS R in crop mode & with the M5 crop camera. The R in crop mode is just under 12 MP and the M5 is 24 MP. Definitely more noise with the 24 MP camera. Just my real world results. Your results may vary.



Did you normalize?


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The difference between snapshots and actually crafting the scene, composition, colors, etc. Correct me if I am wrong @Lee Jay... you only see snapshots? I can think of portrait sessions where I had to set up the lighting, coordinate colors beforehand, and actually plan what I wanted. It is far more involved than just walking up and snapping. If that's the case, fair enough. We all get to decide what is art in our own worlds. One man's art is another's trash. I actually can't see Warhol or Picasso as artists (there are more). If someone I shot thinks the result is art and wants to frame it, that's good enough for me.


But even if you don't set up in a studio that way. You can find a scene in a city street or in nature, and then take the shot with a particular perspective, or to get bokeh effects in the background. These are all 'artistic' effects. Leaving aside the myriad of things that can be done in post (what about photographers that shop hundreds of images together to achieve a finished result?). I don't understand the difference between achieving a desired result with paint and paper as opposed to doing so via a camera. 

Which sort of brings us back to: why would you need a camera with a particular MP/ISO profile? Answer - because it achieves the results I'm looking for.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> I don't understand the difference between achieving a desired result with paint and paper as opposed to doing so via a camera.



One is created from the imagination, one is captured from nature. Even though that capture could be done with considerable skill and technique, I wouldn't call it art.


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## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> One is created from the imagination, one is captured from nature. Even though that capture could be done with considerable skill and technique, I wouldn't call it art.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Even if, as it is in your case, that opinion is spectacularly wrong.


----------



## canonnews (Jan 29, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it. I just think that if Canon puts a real deal FF (or maybe a 45->33MP crop; still way bigger than a super 35 sensor) 8K RAW camera on the market, they can charge whatever they want. The cheapest I could find is $6K "Z CAM" which looks like the sort of camera that needs about $10,000 of additional gear to be usable.



yes, that gives them the ability to charge around 4K for the camera, instead of being caught around Sony's pricing structure.

and that's something that canon would want to do ASAP really.

No one can say, well sony gives you better bang for the buck when this one shoots EIGHT freaking KAY video in raw mode.


----------



## Dexter75 (Jan 29, 2020)

If this is true, it’s going to be almost $5k. Add on a high end RF lens and you are looking at around $8k. Yea, no thanks. I’d get a GFX 50s or X1D II instead. Canon is going to price themselves out of the market if they aren’t careful.


----------



## IcyBergs (Jan 29, 2020)

slclick said:


> I am super concerned with the lack of gorilla glass in the diopter



No mention of platinum contacts for the hotshoe either


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Even if, as it is in your case, that opinion is spectacularly wrong.



And yet, I defended my position with logic, while you could only provide a weak insult.


----------



## Teknon (Jan 29, 2020)

Here come the "This camera is junk - it has a crop at 8k" complaints


----------



## vjlex (Jan 29, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> If this is true, it’s going to be almost $5k. Add on a high end RF lens and you are looking at around $8k. Yea, no thanks. I’d get a GFX 50s or X1D II instead. Canon is going to price themselves out of the market if they aren’t careful.



I think the EOS R was priced well below what people expected. I think Canon already trusts that people are willing to pay a premium on their lenses, even moreso now with RF. I think they'll probably offer the body at a reasonable price (sub $4K, but probably in the ballpark of the 5D4) to shepherd people into the RF system.


----------



## PGSanta (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Yes - people who didn't create the scene they captured, and are thus not artists to me.



I guess it's a good thing the vast majority of people who matter in the field disagree with you.


----------



## Dexter75 (Jan 29, 2020)

shunsai said:


> I think the EOS R was priced well below what people expected. I think Canon already trusts that people are willing to pay a premium on their lenses, even moreso now with RF. I think they'll probably offer the body at a reasonable price (sub $4K, but probably in the ballpark of the 5D4) to shepherd people into the RF system.



looking at the specs, who thought the R was going to be more than $2400? I thought it was going to be $1500. No IBIS, one card slot, cropped 4K etc...everyone else thought it was overpriced too, which is why it didn’t sell until Canon dropped it to $1200. If the R with its average specs was $2400, you expect that fully loaded R5 with those specs to be anything less than a9 II prices?


----------



## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> And yet, I defended my position with logic, while you could only provide a weak insult.


There was nothing weak about it.

If I honestly thought you were willing to learn, I would be more than happy to engage in a discussion. But, it is quite clear that you are solidly in the "don't confuse me with the facts" camp.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> But even if you don't set up in a studio that way. You can find a scene in a city street or in nature, and then take the shot with a particular perspective, or to get bokeh effects in the background. These are all 'artistic' effects. Leaving aside the myriad of things that can be done in post (what about photographers that shop hundreds of images together to achieve a finished result?). I don't understand the difference between achieving a desired result with paint and paper as opposed to doing so via a camera.
> 
> Which sort of brings us back to: why would you need a camera with a particular MP/ISO profile? Answer - because it achieves the results I'm looking for.


Very true. Nearly everything I shoot is outdoors... but I am no artist. Some are.

I take it that merely copying a landscape onto a canvas isn't art. Right @LeeJay ? What about the school of painting called photo realism? https://www.theartstory.org/movement/photorealism/


----------



## Trout Bum (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Yes - people who didn't create the scene they captured, and are thus not artists to me.


Yes, I think you've expressed your personal opinion clearly and definitely often enough now— in a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with the matter. Can we go back to reading comments about the next Canon mirrorless camera now?
Oh wait! Did you hear they've removed all of Vermeer's paintings from the Hermitage? He might have used a camera lucida to complete his compositions. What a phony fake!


----------



## felipeolveram (Jan 29, 2020)

Laslen said:


> I see history repeating itself. I remember when everyone was hyping up the EOS R, saying it would be the amazing leap in mirrorless technology that would dethrone Sony.
> 
> Canon doesn't need to dethrone Sony, they *only* need to be competitive, and prevent more customers from switching. *They need to match Sony.* So far, they have failed in even coming close. Canon is not going to waste a bunch of money designing a camera far better than they need to, while also butchering their own pro flagship DSLR and Cine product lines.
> 
> Think about it, guys. Look up the 1DX3 specs and tell me you seriously believe this is even possible in a small MILC body. Be excited for Canon's future, but not delusional. You are setting yourselves up for perpetual disappointment in Canon. Their lenses are what will bring people back, as long as the bodies are competitive.




Thank you for bringing everyone back to reality, they could only do so much with the size of the 1dx mark iii, even look at how panasonic had to increase the size of the s1 to allow a fan to vent the heat ... chance are this happening is about 2%... I could see them having 4k 60fps but it would have a crop of 2 and no afc in it. imho they're going to cripple this camera ... compare the 1dx mark ii specs to the 5d mark iv... let's get real people and avoid the post hate.


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> If this is true, it’s going to be almost $5k. Add on a high end RF lens and you are looking at around $8k. Yea, no thanks. I’d get a GFX 50s or X1D II instead. Canon is going to price themselves out of the market if they aren’t careful.


Well, maybe wait and see what the actual price is. If the specs are true, they are pretty much creating a new market.


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## vjlex (Jan 29, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> looking at the specs, who thought the R was going to be more than $2400? I thought it was going to be $1500. No IBIS, one card slot, cropped 4K etc...everyone else thought it was overpriced too, which is why it didn’t sell until Canon dropped it to $1200. If the R with its average specs was $2400, you expect that fully loaded R5 with those specs to be anything less than a9 II prices?



Seriously? I don't know of anyone who expected Canon's first full-frame mirrorless to be less than $2000. I think most people were estimating in the $2500-3200 range as it was very close to 5D4 specs (give or take), but mirrorless.

No, everyone else did not think it was overpriced.


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## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

It strikes me from the specs, and the nearly 20 pages of discussion, that this might be a video camera that can shoot stills, rather than a stills camera that can shoot video.


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## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

shunsai said:


> Seriously? I don't know of anyone who expected Canon's first full-frame mirrorless to be less than $2000. I think most people were estimating in the $2500-3200 range as it was very close to 5D4 specs (give or take).
> 
> No, everyone else did not think it was overpriced.


And (inevitably) the R was discounted not all that long after release. I recall getting about 25% off. The initial price is for those who Really Want It Straight Away.


----------



## vjlex (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> And (inevitably) the R was discounted not all that long after release. I recall getting about 25% off. The initial price is for those who Really Want It Straight Away.


The R definitely wasn't worth it for me, but it was still cheaper than I expected. $5k will put this camera out of my reach for a while if not turn me off altogether. If it's sub-$4K, I'll have one before the year is over.


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> It strikes me from the specs, and the nearly 20 pages of discussion, that this might be a video camera that can shoot stills, rather than a stills camera that can shoot video.


Interesting. I also wonder what the specs say about the other two rumoured R cameras supposed to be coming out this year? If this is the 5Dv-equivalent, then maybe the 5Ds/high MP R will be the more stills-focused version? Which leaves the EOS Rii.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> looking at the specs, who thought the R was going to be more than $2400?...everyone else thought it was overpriced too, which is why it didn’t sell until Canon dropped it to $1200.



The R is currently selling for a street price of $1,699. Can you provide some figures to document that "it didn’t sell until Canon dropped it to $1200?"


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

shunsai said:


> The R definitely wasn't worth it for me, but it was still cheaper than I expected. $5k will put this camera out of my reach for a while if not turn me off altogether. Sub-$4K, I'll have one before the year is over.


The (discounted) R was fine for me, because I had been thinking about jumping to the 5Div anyway. I wouldn't be in the market for the R5 immediately, but it will tell us (i) what they can do with the new digic on mirrorless, (ii) what IBIS is going to be like and (iii) what the new generation sensors look like. All this means something in relation to the other R bodies to come - including the (more affordable from my point of view) EOS Rii.


----------



## deleteme (Jan 29, 2020)

DrToast said:


> I disagree. A good app is a plus, but just wireless tethering would be great.


Yes, but any app that Canon has made so far is a miserable waste of code.
As they aren't distributing SDKs as far as I know the likelihood of getting improved functionality on any front is grim.
IMO if any manufacturer offered functionality and ease of use approaching CamRanger, they would immediately capture a ton of pros and enthusiasts needing this product.
Wireless tehtering sounds fine but we are talking about RAW files over WiFi. Can be done, but the pain is not worth it unless you are shooting one image, pausing for 3 minutes and thinking about the setup before shooting again. Few are that patient.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> It will shoot 8K during winter only to avoid excess heating


No worries, its going to come with DFE ... dual fire extinguisher.


----------



## ronno (Jan 29, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



The two things I care about the most (not mentioned in these specs):
1. No blackout a la Sony A9 (the slide show while viewing the EVF on the EOS R is terrible IMO)
2. Better DR

The rest (increased resolution, joy stick, etc would be nice, but not as critical as the above IMO)


----------



## Ethan S (Jan 29, 2020)

And I just preordered the 1dx mark iii. What do I do ;-)


----------



## RobbieHat (Jan 29, 2020)

I am wondering about this camera as a possible wildlife rig. The higher MP almost match my 5DSR and if the focusing system, frame rate, higher ISO performance and DR are improvements over the 5DSR this could make an excellent camera for BIF and other wildlife. 

Will also be interested to understand how it handles extenders (1.4 or 2x). I haven't used the 5D Mark IV so would be interested to hear from those that have that camera how it handles those extenders. 

Can't wait to see it if the CR3 is true!


----------



## KarstenReis (Jan 29, 2020)

Haven't commented here in years and see the rhetoric has gotten worse. People complaining about Canon not giving them enough video features. Wah. Not enough megapixels. Sony has more. Nikon has more. Wah. It's to slow. Wah. Seems like they're delivering on all accounts now (8K, 45MP, 12/20 fps still shooting), yet still complaints without the full specs being released... If these are the real features they need to make money, so yes it will be priced at a premium. Most of you all probably don't even maximize the capability of the gear you have and this camera isn't going to improve your photos.


----------



## Dexter75 (Jan 29, 2020)

shunsai said:


> Seriously? I don't know of anyone who expected Canon's first full-frame mirrorless to be less than $2000. I think most people were estimating in the $2500-3200 range as it was very close to 5D4 specs (give or take), but mirrorless.
> 
> No, everyone else did not think it was overpriced.



yes, seriously, going off the specs, no one thought the R should be anywhere close to $3k lol.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 29, 2020)

RobbieHat said:


> I am wondering about this camera as a possible wildlife rig. The higher MP almost match my 5DSR and if the focusing system, frame rate, higher ISO performance and DR are improvements over the 5DSR this could make an excellent camera for BIF and other wildlife.
> 
> Will also be interested to understand how it handles extenders (1.4 or 2x). I haven't used the 5D Mark IV so would be interested to hear from those that have that camera how it handles those extenders.
> 
> Can't wait to see it if the CR3 is true!


I don't do much stuff that's as demanding on autofocus as birds in flight or anything, but the 2X III extender works fine on my 5D IV with the 70-200 2.8 IS II. I mean, I can't really tell the extender is in there based on how the camera operates, other than the fact that it zooms further and the aperture only goes down to f5.6.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> king place. That's what I'm asking... People seem to be unable to believe that a camera could ever handle this level of video, but my question is what does the camera really nee





Lee Jay said:


> But none (yet) even have the same pixel density as my 7DII, and all have vastly inferior viewfinders and battery life.


Pretty safe bet that the high res model will be coming along, but you are absolutely right about the battery life. Mirror box AF sensors use WAY less power than a main sensor plus a display, but there are other tradeoffs. I have a 90D and in SLR mode it is amazingly frugal with the battery. However, in live mode the AF is more accurate and it works well down to at least f/11 and in decent light even f/16 whereas the (very good) OVF is limited to f/8. Live view does suck battery pretty much the same way as a mirrorless so those are the tradeoffs. The 7D II is a very good camera, but the niche it fills uniquely is not a very big part of the market, and that's not to say that folks who didn't NEED one didn't buy one, because they did, but rather to say that the requirement for a 7D that can't be filled by something else is small. For many, the 90D will suffice and it does have noticeably more reach and really decent video. For others, the flexibility of the RF series with the ability to shoot full or crop and offer DPAF with an EVF will be just fine. Note, also that IBIS will make AF even better, since it is easier for the camera to capture an accurate proxy to drive the AF.


----------



## masterpix (Jan 29, 2020)

Two things that a bit pussles me "mechanical 12fps"? and "same shape and controls as the 5Dvi"? I wonder how those two lines got into the R family.


----------



## Gözler (Jan 29, 2020)

I hope this is true. I will upgrade from my 5D MK3 to 5R in a heart beat. It is going to be a long wait for it!


----------



## slclick (Jan 29, 2020)

PGSanta said:


> I guess it's a good thing the vast majority of people who matter in the field disagree with you.


His viewpoint is not dissimilar to the worldview on photography during it's onset. Artists and critics in the mid 1800's dismissed it in general and it wasn't until pictorialism style of photography in the late 1800's in which the masses started to accept it as an artform.


----------



## Gözler (Jan 29, 2020)

masterpix said:


> Two things that a bit pussles me "mechanical 12fps"? and "same shape and controls as the 5Dvi"? I wonder how those two lines got into the R family.



So how does a mirror-less camera have a mechanical mode? Is this something to do with view finder vs live mode?


----------



## ronno (Jan 29, 2020)

DPReview just put this RUMOR on the front page...
Rumor: Canon's next mirrorless camera could have 45MP sensor with IBIS and possible 8K/30p video


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## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

Ethan S said:


> And I just preordered the 1dx mark iii. What do I do ;-)


Let me be the first to offer you $3,000 for it.


----------



## masterpix (Jan 29, 2020)

Gözler said:


> So how does a mirror-less camera have a mechanical mode? Is this something to do with view finder vs live mode?


that is my assumption but the spec say specifically "*12fps mechanical, 20fps electronic* " both EVF and live mode are electronic.


----------



## NorskHest (Jan 29, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Have we honestly gone 7 pages without a "no 24p" joke? I'm disappointed in you guys


hahahahahaha


----------



## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

ronno said:


> DPReview just put this RUMOR on the front page...
> Rumor: Canon's next mirrorless camera could have 45MP sensor with IBIS and possible 8K/30p video


There will be a lot of embarrassed people if this is wrong.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> The pixel density is too low to replace a 7D Mark II for long-reach applications (17MP in APS-c mode) and no information about the usability of the viewfinder (I find all Sony's and both Canon's to be unusable, so whether or not I ever switch away from SLRs depends heavily on this point).


It's the same pixel density as D850 which is only slightly less than D500, and IQ in general would be much better than 7DII, losing a little reach is something I cut off my right arm for if these specs are true.


----------



## Aaron D (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I think you may not be familiar with a lot of photographers who are artists. Edward Weston, Jerry Uelsmann, Andreas Gursky, Minor White, Stephen Shore and Jeff Wall are just a few that come to mind who are or were excellent craftsmen and also world class artists.


Didn't say _was_. I said _is_. And because I suspect there might be a bias means I don't know these photographers? Why not add Ansel to your list--I must be a _total_ noob, huh?


----------



## slclick (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> There will be a lot of embarrassed people if this is wrong.


One thing is for certain, those comments over there are going to be a bit harsher than on this page. I am not going to take even one looksie.


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## Dank13 (Jan 29, 2020)

so pretty much canon is going from the no-go camera for video to the holly grail if all video mirrorless cameras in one single update?

Some how i think this is a Santa's wish list to Canon other than the real specs of this camera.... 

Unless someone on Canon got sacked and a new managing guy took over it and change all Canon's ideas of what a great camera should have for specs, i'm 110% sure those specs won't happen in the next 4 years. They only started doing 4K on their cameras 1yr ago, do you have any idea how long its going to take for them to add 8K???? not to mention there isn't technology available to do that on a mirrorless camera yet.

So i wouldn't even hope for this kind of specs on a Canon camera anytime soon.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

Mars1954 said:


> NO mention here of dual card slots! should we just assume that it will have them?


To take a guess, I would say one CFExpress slot and one SD UHSII slot. That satisfies the need for speed and keeps the penurious from whining about card cost. It also saves space and probably power relative to two CFE slots and consistent with 5D tradition.


----------



## Gloads (Jan 29, 2020)

Assuming the DIGIC X can do 45MP x 20fps, or 900MPs, is this what the R lineup will look like by the end of the year:


ModelPriceMPFPSVideoNotesRP$7002654k/24Cost reducedR (& Ra + $1,000)$1,4003084k/60EOL?RII (w/smart controller)$2,40032124k/60 (or 120?)No Crop, 2 SD slotsR5$3,70045208k/30DR & high ISO, 2 x CF ExpressRS? (same as R5 body)$3,70075128k/30DR, 2 x CF ExpressR1 (1d battery)$5,00024/3237/284k/120Best AF, Very high ISO, 2 x CF Express


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> There will be a lot of embarrassed people if this is wrong.


DPR wouldn't have put it up if it wasn't mostly true (and they had permission or direction from Canon to do so because they are no doubt under NDA). This is called marketing at its finest. The whole camera crowd is going to be talking about nothing but this until the announcement date. The surprise bonus will be if availability is April instead of July, which is quite likely.


----------



## addola (Jan 29, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Assuming the DIGIC X can do 45MP x 20fps, or 900MPs, is this what the R lineup will look like by the end of the year



You forgot the Canon EOS Ra, which is already released.


----------



## Aaron D (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I think it's interesting that all those start with nothing, except photography. Photography starts with some sort of scene. If you create the scene, that's art. If you don't, it's not, at least to me.



All due respect, what did so many of (especially) the classic artists create _from nothing_? Not landscapes, or portraits, or still lifes. They 'selected' those subjects from what they saw in the world. Nobody 'creates' a landscape in that sense. And I don't think anybody would argue that all those landscapes hanging in museums are art. You see it, experience it, and interpret in some medium with whatever tools you like. Brushes, chisels, cameras, etc.

It wasn't until relatively recently that anybody created _from nothing_. I'm getting in over my head here, but it could be argued _from nothing_ only happens with abstracts and like that. I'm not an art historian, but you know what I mean.


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> DPR wouldn't have put it up if it wasn't mostly true (and they had permission or direction from Canon to do so because they are no doubt under NDA). This is called marketing at its finest. The whole camera crowd is going to be talking about nothing but this until the announcement date. The surprise bonus will be if availability is April instead of July, which is quite likely.


Maybe not permission from Canon, but I could see a clause on re-reporting on rumours if another site presents it first. Then again, maybe it's the other way around and DPReview received a tester copy and they're the source for the rumour... I'm going to need a tin foil hat.


----------



## Gloads (Jan 29, 2020)

addola said:


> You forgot the Canon EOS Ra, which is already released.


Fixed, thanks! Also, the R1 would likely be more than a year from now.


----------



## MaximPhotoStudio (Jan 29, 2020)

No mention that they are releasing it on April 1st. Otherwise it would the trolling master stroke. Specs are amazing and if true many previous Canon to Sony converts are going to regret not sticking around.


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

Gloads said:


> the R1 would likely be more than a year from now.


Agreed on this. Do you think a 75MP body would shoot at 12 FPS?

Supplementary question - which bodies will have IBIS?


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Assuming the DIGIC X can do 45MP x 20fps, or 900MPs, is this what the R lineup will look like by the end of the year:
> 
> 
> ModelPriceMPFPSVideoNotesRP$7002654k/24Cost reducedR (& Ra + $1,000)$1,4003084k/60EOL?RII (w/smart controller)$2,40032124k/60 (or 120?)No Crop, 2 SD slotsR5$3,70045208k/30DR & high ISO, 2 x CF ExpressRS? (same as R5 body)$3,70075128k/30DR, 2 x CF ExpressR1 (1d battery)$5,00024/3237/284k/120Best AF, Very high ISO, 2 x CF Express


Only a few quibbles. I think the R5 and RS will have one CFE and one UHS II slot conceptually consistent with the 5D line. Also, good likelihood that the RII will be 40MP to allow for straight 2:1 pixel binning for full width video. R1 may well roll into 2021 as not really needed any sooner. RP follow-on should do at least 4k/30 to be in the game.


----------



## Gloads (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Agreed on this. Do you think a 75MP body would shoot at 12 FPS?
> 
> Supplementary question - which bodies will have IBIS?


I don't need 12FPS (7 is fine for me), but the R5 math allows it. All new bodies should have IBIS.


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> I think the R5 and RS will have one CFE and one UHS II slot conceptually consistent with the 5D line.


Wouldn't including a UHS II card have an effect on the FPS - the headline speeds would seem to assume using a CFE? I know using both cards at once reduces speeds generally anyway.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

amorse said:


> Maybe not permission from Canon, but I could see a clause on re-reporting on rumours if another site presents it first. Then again, maybe it's the other way around and DPReview received a tester copy and they're the source for the rumour... I'm going to need a tin foil hat.


Or the rumor came straight from Canon through a couple of layers of misdirection. The only Item I question is the delivery date. The 1DX III was in DPR's hands weeks before the announcement and the availability date was very quick, particularly for a 1 series. It makes no sense that they would put a 6 month delay in a 5 series camera unless they have a hell of a lot of inventory to flush at bargain prices in the meantime.


----------



## snappy604 (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> DPR wouldn't have put it up if it wasn't mostly true (and they had permission or direction from Canon to do so because they are no doubt under NDA). This is called marketing at its finest. The whole camera crowd is going to be talking about nothing but this until the announcement date. The surprise bonus will be if availability is April instead of July, which is quite likely.




both sites quoting and reinforcing each other... like a resonance ;-)


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

Me: CR3, wow. The chatter will be interesting.

[Life happens for a bit]

Me: Okay, let's see what people are talking ab---



Aaron D said:


> So a musician isn't a musician unless he builds his own piano, right?




Lee Jay said:


> A musician is always a musician. They aren't an artist unless they compose their own music or improvise during performance.



So I'm not sure if this camera is indeed real, but I'm mos def believing that you guys are starting a band.

- A


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Or the rumor came straight from Canon through a couple of layers of misdirection. The only Item I question is the delivery date. The 1DX III was in DPR's hands weeks before the announcement and the availability date was very quick, particularly for a 1 series. It makes no sense that they would put a 6 month delay in a 5 series camera unless they have a hell of a lot of inventory to flush at bargain prices in the meantime.


Maybe they're staggering the release date to take account of the 1D X iii release? Not that they'll be producing squillions of the 1D X iii, but two major releases is still something to be managed. 

We're also assuming this is the first EOS R series camera to be released this year - the latest rumour was there would be 3 of them. I think we had been assuming the RS would be the first. Could that still come first?


----------



## Gloads (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Only a few quibbles. I think the R5 and RS will have one CFE and one UHS II slot conceptually consistent with the 5D line. Also, good likelihood that the RII will be 40MP to allow for straight 2:1 pixel binning for full width video. R1 may well roll into 2021 as not really needed any sooner. RP follow-on should do at least 4k/30 to be in the game.


I went back and forth on that. If you have more throughput than the 1DX3, would you throttle down when you switch to the SD slot? If you are asking consumers to buy new glass (as an investment) then I think you can do that for storage on $3,700 bodies. Maybe the RII has one of each as an intro to CFE. 

The RII will be in an interesting spot. It can't encroach on the R5, but has to offer something over the R. I thought +2MP and 2 slots was not enough, but what more can you do without devaluing the R5. The R5 differentiator can't only be 8k...

With the 1DX3 just out, one would expect the R1 would be at least a year if not more. Need some big RF glass to drive the need. Also, as a former sports shooter, EVF lag is not acceptable, so that is a challenge.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Wouldn't including a UHS II card have an effect on the FPS - the headline speeds would seem to assume using a CFE? I know using both cards at once reduces speeds generally anyway.


And using a slow SD card slows down a 5DII/5DIII/5DS/5DIV. Nothing new there. Not everybody needs the speed at all, and most don't need it all the time. SD cards are WAY cheaper, even the UHSII variety.


----------



## AlanF (Jan 29, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's incorrect and things are more complicated. There's well capacity factor and it contributes to the DR. And well capacity depends on the pixel size, although there are methods to improve it on smaller pixels. More on this you can find in this good article https://clarkvision.com/articles/does.pixel.size.matter/#sensorconstant


Leaving aside edge effects, the well capacity per unit area is the same for large and small pixels. DR is defined by enlarging the area of the sensor to a fixed output size in photonstophotos.net, and by theory and experiment is independent of pixel size for sensors of the same size and chacteristics.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

Gloads said:


> I went back and forth on that. If you have more throughput than the 1DX3, would you throttle down when you switch to the SD slot? If you are asking consumers to buy new glass (as an investment) then I think you can do that for storage on $3,700 bodies. Maybe the RII has one of each as an intro to CFE.
> 
> The RII will be in an interesting spot. It can't encroach on the R5, but has to offer something over the R. I thought +2MP and 2 slots was not enough, but what more can you do without devaluing the R5. The R5 differentiator can't only be 8k...
> 
> With the 1DX3 just out, one would expect the R1 would be at least a year if not more. Need some big RF glass to drive the need. Also, as a former sports shooter, EVF lag is not acceptable, so that is a challenge.


Throttling with an SD card has been an issue with the 5 series back at least a far as the 5DII, so nothing new there. The RII would lose 8k, 4k /120, 4k cinema format, and some AF features and very likely IBIS. Plenty of differentiation. Sony only offers IBIS on the high end because it is not cheap to build well.


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> And using a slow SD card slows down a 5DII/5DIII/5DS/5DIV. Nothing new there. Not everybody needs the speed at all, and most don't need it all the time. SD cards are WAY cheaper, even the UHSII variety.


I definitely wouldn't need it either, but if the headline speed (including video capture) is going to be a big part of the story, then it's possible they will go dual CFE. They may not think the cost of new cards will matter much on a USD5k camera.


----------



## sanj (Jan 29, 2020)

cellomaster27 said:


> guys guys.. this is ridiculous. You know how canon tries to keep the cinema line separate.. this is going totally against what they're been doing. You think they would do that now? MAYBE the 8k and 4k has a MASSIVE crop or something like no DPAF with video or no AF.  idk. but this is dumb. Who would buy the 1dx3?? I think it'll definitely destroy that part of the market. absolutely do not believe this.. plus its a 45mp FF sensor. 12-20 fps?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. HEIF files or not, nooooo way.


I have learned the art of 'wait and watch' around 3 years ago when I stupidly predicted that DSLR is dead. So I would not 'HAHAHAHHAHA' too soon.


----------



## Southstorm (Jan 29, 2020)

Has no one seen the R6 CR2.5 rumor??m









Canon EOS R6 specifications [CR3]


We mentioned previously that four new full-frame cameras were coming from Canon in 2020, and we now know two of them are the EOS-1D X Mark III and the EOS R5. T



www.canonrumors.com


----------



## sanj (Jan 29, 2020)

t.linn said:


> That's the first question that came to my mind: Has Canon made anything more than the most basic incremental steps toward competing on the DR front with Sony.


Has Canon ever made a sensor that was worse than earlier versions?


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> looking at the specs, who thought the R was going to be more than $2400? I thought it was going to be $1500. No IBIS, one card slot, cropped 4K etc...everyone else thought it was overpriced too, which is why it didn’t sell until Canon dropped it to $1200. If the R with its average specs was $2400, you expect that fully loaded R5 with those specs to be anything less than a9 II prices?




Me for sure:

It was not aimed at the competition -- it was aimed at us, existing Canon owners. There was (at that time) a large pent-up interest in FF mirrorless and I assumed they'd ask for a pretty penny for it as folks didn't have to buy new lenses to use to the platform.
It has a 5D4 sensor + tilty-flippy + more portable body. 5D4 owners (i.e. people who pay decent money for what they need) didn't have two of those things and probably wanted at least one of them without having to downgrade to a 6D2 body.
The 5D4 (albeit a beefier pro product) was selling for $3099 at the time EOS R came out. (That lacked IBIS and had cropped 4K as well, btw. )
So I thought it would be $2500-ish. More if they spec'd it more like the 5D4, less if they came in at entry level, put a 6D2 sensor in there, etc.

Follow up question: A new EOS R body price was dropped to $1200? From authorized resellers? 

​
- A


----------



## NorskHest (Jan 29, 2020)

slclick said:


> Sir, I applaud your taste in hardware and furthermore give you a standing ovation for not mentioning video in any way shape or from.


But video is the new photo, why must you always get so worked up. Soon enough you will be hitting that shutter release and then recording of media will happen and you will select your image from the video. We in the film world have been doing this with dng sequences and a few other motions files for a while. Video is the future of photo. How good a camera is now based on video. Most of the people in the world can tell no difference on their phones between 20-60 mpix so there is no point for people to get so worked up over the hybrid shooters that have helped evolve this market. I hope this camera has 4K 120 and you buy it and use alllll the video functions and realize video is great.


----------



## NorskHest (Jan 29, 2020)

sanj said:


> Has Canon ever made a sensor that was worse than earlier versions?


The 1dc has better dynamic range than the 1dxmkii


----------



## Gloads (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Throttling with an SD card has been an issue with the 5 series back at least a far as the 5DII, so nothing new there. The RII would lose 8k, 4k /120, 4k cinema format, and some AF features and very likely IBIS. Plenty of differentiation. Sony only offers IBIS on the high end because it is not cheap to build well.


So the RII is just +10MP and not much else over the R? I guess if it is at the original price point of the R that makes sense, and keeps it away from the R5. Having skipped the R line due to the lack of features for the price, I would expect more of the RII. I guess if the line does flesh out somewhat like I am guessing, you can get whatever you want, as long as you can afford it


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

masterpix said:


> Two things that a bit pussles me "mechanical 12fps"? and "same shape and controls as the 5Dvi"? I wonder how those two lines got into the R family.




Same shape as the 5D4 _*battery*_. I believe we're talking about the battery there.

Mechanical = the shutter (mirrorless rigs still have those). A mechanical shutter like we have in just about every ILC is (generally) preferable, but eventually it will rate-limit the fps, so an e-shutter opens up the door for higher framerates.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

ronno said:


> DPReview just put this RUMOR on the front page...
> Rumor: Canon's next mirrorless camera could have 45MP sensor with IBIS and possible 8K/30p video




PP picked it up as well. They are running with it, too.

- A


----------



## ronno (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> PP picked it up as well. They are running with it, too.
> 
> - A


PP?


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Assuming the DIGIC X can do 45MP x 20fps, or 900MPs, is this what the R lineup will look like by the end of the year:
> 
> 
> ModelPriceMPFPSVideoNotesRP$7002654k/24Cost reducedR (& Ra + $1,000)$1,4003084k/60EOL?RII (w/smart controller)$2,40032124k/60 (or 120?)No Crop, 2 SD slotsR5$3,70045208k/30DR & high ISO, 2 x CF ExpressRS? (same as R5 body)$3,70075128k/30DR, 2 x CF ExpressR1 (1d battery)$5,00024/3237/284k/120Best AF, Very high ISO, 2 x CF Express




Your chart is already out of date. R6 rumored specs just dropped.

It may be R1 / R5 / R6 like we have with SLRs and they just used these first two names R and RP and cannon fodder names for the first versions. Call me crazy, but we may never see an R2 or another RP. 

- A


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

Gloads said:


> So the RII is just +10MP and not much else over the R? I guess if it is at the original price point of the R that makes sense, and keeps it away from the R5. Having skipped the R line due to the lack of features for the price, I would expect more of the RII. I guess if the line does flesh out somewhat like I am guessing, you can get whatever you want, as long as you can afford it


The R doesn't do 4k/60 and I think that would be cheap to do with a 40MP sensor and 2:1 binning. You would see some aliasing due to effective loss of the AA filter, but otherwise the video should be pretty good. All speculation, but yes, I think you will have a lot of options. I still want an M5II, but that may not happen, or maybe, just maybe it is waiting on the new processor to get the power consumption to fit the battery envelope. Probably not until late in the year to give everybody time to lose hope and buy an M6II, though  .


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

sanj said:


> Has Canon ever made a sensor that was worse than earlier versions?




No, but they have recycled ancient architecture into some cameras rather famously.

The 6D2 / RP sensor decision will always live in infamy.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

ronno said:


> PP?












Canon to Release 'EOS R5' with 45MP Sensor, IBIS, and 8K Video: Report


After 24 hours of back-and-forth, unconfirmed leaks, Canon Rumors is reporting with high confidence that Canon is working on a camera called the EOS R5




petapixel.com





- A


----------



## snoke (Jan 29, 2020)

Called it right.





__





Canon EOS RS Specifications? [CR1]


Posting this specification list actually kept up last night (silly right?), as I find some of it too good to be true, but as a few of you mentioned on Twitter, this is a rumors site, not a facts site. I received this information from two unrelated people, one of which I have had interaction...




www.canonrumors.com





8K denier be like 1080p denier about 5D Mark II.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> The 1dc has better dynamic range than the 1dxmkii


It was also a LOT more expensive, so not apples to apples.


----------



## snoke (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Interesting. I also wonder what the specs say about the other two rumoured R cameras supposed to be coming out this year? If this is the 5Dv-equivalent, then maybe the 5Ds/high MP R will be the more stills-focused version? Which leaves the EOS Rii.



Yes. Canon strategy clear now.

Only one question now: is 5DV dead?

EOS R5 @ $2999 ? Nobody buy 5DV.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

snoke said:


> Yes. Canon strategy clear now.
> 
> Only one question now: is 5DV dead?




Not if Canon rolls out a same-internals SLR alongside this R5, which I believe they will. That's your 5D5 right there.

- A


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

snoke said:


> Yes. Canon strategy clear now.
> 
> Only one question now: is 5DV dead?
> 
> EOS R5 @ $2999 ? Nobody buy 5DV.


Very good question. If the R5 is the R-equivalent 5Dv, and maybe the R6 is the R-equivalent 6Diii, will they actually release DSLR versions? Maybe not.


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Not if Canon rolls out a same-internals SLR alongside this R5, which I believe they will. That's your 5D5 right there.
> 
> - A


But there ain't no rumour of FF DSLRs dropping any time soon, is there?


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

snoke said:


> Yes. Canon strategy clear now.
> 
> Only one question now: is 5DV dead?
> 
> EOS R5 @ $2999 ? Nobody buy 5DV.




I think R5 and the 5D5 will be priced much closer to one another than R was to the 5D4. Canon might make the R5 a hair less costly than a same spec'd 5D5 to foster migration to RF and possibly sell some RF lenses. 

But the hordes of 5-series users aren't going to just give up their OVFs en masse. Many will want to stick with an SLR for OVF, battery, and even trust/reliability reasons -- it's the system they've been using forever.

So I see a 5D5 happening.

- A


----------



## snoke (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Not if Canon rolls out a same-internals SLR alongside this R5, which I believe they will. That's your 5D5 right there.
> 
> - A



5D5 always more expensive than R5.

If R5 + EF-RF less than 5D5, why buy 5D5?

No new EF lens. Canon want all EF to buy new RF. Need carrot.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

You will still have the 5D5, even with similar or identical specs. Why? EF glass libraries. Native mount. Familiar ergonomics. All to favor Canon’s biggest, most harcore pro users.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

snoke said:


> 5D5 always more expensive than R5.
> 
> If R5 + EF-RF less than 5D5, why buy 5D5?



OVF
Some photographers may not like like adaptors, having to think about remembering them if they have a mixed bag of EF and RF glass,, etc.
Battery life
R5 may not have 5D size/feel/ergonomics/controls (TBD)
R5 may not be as rugged as the 5D (TBD)

I'm speculating, of course, but imagine taking your friendly neighborhood wedding photographer, portrait studio pro, etc. and tell them 'this is cheaper, so you'll use this now' and take away the technology they've been using for a very long time. It probably won't go well.

They'll get there, they'll switch eventually, but a straight price-based argument won't do it.

- A


----------



## mb66energy (Jan 29, 2020)

If that comes true I might pay 3.5 k€ for that thing after skipping 5D ii ... 5D iv. And I am glad having bought the RP + Adapter + RF35 which will be a 2nd body.
IBIS is very welcome to keep my existing lenses but extend their usability in lower light / with higher aperture numbers.


----------



## MVPhoto (Jan 29, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> looking at the specs, who thought the R was going to be more than $2400? I thought it was going to be $1500. No IBIS, one card slot, cropped 4K etc...everyone else thought it was overpriced too, which is why it didn’t sell until Canon dropped it to $1200. If the R with its average specs was $2400, you expect that fully loaded R5 with those specs to be anything less than a9 II prices?



It's basically a stripped down 5D mk4. It's the exact same sensor as the 5D mk4. That camera was $3,500 when it launched new. It's still $2,600 new several years later. Yes, it has 2 card slots. The EOS R has some improvements to it's video codecs that the mk4 doesn't have though. All and all I think the launch price on the EOS R was very reasonable. When the EOS R dropped to $1,500 for Christmas I nearly snagged one then but I'm waiting for this rumored R5!


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

Romain said:


> TRY TO UNDERSTAND... Photography and videography have the same destiny, it's a fact since the beginning mates... Talking about video specs here is very fun because photographers are always underestimating the importance of the increasing of the video resolution. When you will burst in 8K at 30fps in video mode (or more res, in RAW, at ISO 300 000 000 with DPAF in 2040), what will photography become?.. Something marginal more and more, a long exposure life style, an artistic tool... Maybe i miss some technical issues, but we walked on moon, or was it fake??... Maybe i'm dreaming sometimes, i don't know... Or you're denying!! Haha


If photography means a snapshot to you at a constant shutter speed with No strobes or speedlites used then sure. Why wouldn’t you ....


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I'm a tech geek (MS EE), I don't think photography is an art, and I have close to 500,000 images under management. I don't think I have any pictures of brick walls, but I do have a few thousand test shots taken with various equipment for various reasons.


Photography is not an art? What Does it mean to you then? Just courious


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

In case you missed it, *R**6* specs are on another thread:









Canon EOS R6 specifications [CR3]


We mentioned previously that four new full-frame cameras were coming from Canon in 2020, and we now know two of them are the EOS-1D X Mark III and the EOS R5. T



www.canonrumors.com





- A


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Cameras are like paintbrushes, anybody can pick them up and use them, most paint walls with a tin of emulsion from Home Depot or Lowes, some paint the Sistine chapel.
> 
> Your photography might not be art, and there is no shame in that, but to imply some artists don’t use photography as a medium goes too far. Photography can be art but most photography isn’t, also most photographers are not artists But some are.


Photography that isn’t an artistry is a snapshootery and therefore isn’t a media for artist but rather for snapshooters


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jan 29, 2020)

This is Canon 0wn1ng the Sony fanb0is on DPR & PityPickels. You love to see it.


----------



## seasonascent (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> The pixel density is too low to replace a 7D Mark II for long-reach applications (17MP in APS-c mode) and no information about the usability of the viewfinder (I find all Sony's and both Canon's to be unusable, so whether or not I ever switch away from SLRs depends heavily on this point).


We get it. You hate EVFs.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

IcyBergs said:


> No mention of platinum contacts for the hotshoe either


 No, this isn’t acceptable in a professional product. Take it back to the drawing board.


----------



## MVPhoto (Jan 29, 2020)

Regarding all the people who are skeptical about the R5 shooting 8K video, this is most likely implemented in a time-lapse mode. Remember the Nikon Z7 mirrorless which was introduced in Aug 2018 is also 45 MP and shoots 8K time-lapse videos.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jan 29, 2020)

Craig's track record with CR3 rumors is very good, so I'll take these specs to the bank even if I don't have an account with them. I will enjoy the weeping & gnashing of teeth from the Sony fanboys getting owned massively for great justice.


----------



## Laslen (Jan 29, 2020)

MVPhoto said:


> Regarding all the people who are skeptical about the R5 shooting 8K video, this is most likely implemented in a time-lapse mode. Remember the Nikon Z7 mirrorless which was introduced in Aug 2018 is also 45 MP and shoots 8K time-lapse videos.


What about 4k120p? That almost seems more far-fetched to me. Is a FF mirrorless body even capable of handling that? I think it would need cooling fans.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

Photography itself isn't art. Processing, using and exposing it to the public makes it art.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jan 29, 2020)

I personally wish for these specs, or most of these specs, on a body with a viewfinder with infinite resolution, zero lag, no noise when viewing low-light scenes, very low blackout times, takes little or no power... Hmmm, does Canon have that cutting-edge VF tech I wonder...


----------



## geffy (Jan 29, 2020)

Sounds kike a SONY RUMOUR


----------



## Kit. (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> If you build everything in the scene, that's art.


No. In music, for example, it's cacophony.



Lee Jay said:


> I think it's interesting that all those start with nothing,


They don't. If you refuse to see their basis, it does not mean that it doesn't exist.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 29, 2020)

Laslen said:


> *They need to match Sony.*


No, thanks. If I wanted something that matches a Sony, I would buy a Sony.



Laslen said:


> tell me you seriously believe this is even possible in a small MILC body.


Sorry, but what I especially don't want Canon to do is to match Sony on the body size. I prefer 5D series ergonomics, thank you very much.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 29, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> As they aren't distributing SDKs as far as I know


They are. I would be *very* surprised if this camera did not support CCAPI.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Throttling with an SD card has been an issue with the 5 series back at least a far as the 5DII,


My 5DII is a single-slot CF camera. YMMV, of course, but somehow I doubt it.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jan 29, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Sorry, but what I especially don't want Canon to do is to match Sony on the body size. I prefer 5D series ergonomics, thank you very much.


I agree, and it is not only about hardware ergonomics, I also don't want to be exposed to Sony's software "ergonomics". I want to be able to shoot, not to get lost in kafkaeske menu labyrinths to find the setting I need.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jan 29, 2020)

Kit. said:


> My 5DII is a single-slot CF camera. YMMV, of course, but somehow I doubt it.


Believe it or not: I shot many years cameras with only one single film loaded, no safety back-up film possible. Risky times back then, I hardly survived...


----------



## UlricWolf (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> The pixel density is too low to replace a 7D Mark II for long-reach applications (17MP in APS-c mode) and no information about the usability of the viewfinder (I find all Sony's and both Canon's to be unusable, so whether or not I ever switch away from SLRs depends heavily on this point).



What do You mean “unusable”??? What else You want in EVF to be “usable”?


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jan 29, 2020)

snoke said:


> 5D5 always more expensive than R5.


Question is whether the production of a SLR or a ML with IBIS is more costly. Not sure. Simple ML bodies w/o IBIS are much less complex than a SLR and therefore much cheaper to make, but IBIS enhances electro-mechanical complexity. My guess: an SLR is even more complex and costly to produce, e.g. it needs a separate phase AF sensor etc. ...


----------



## Daner (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> The pixel density is too low to replace a 7D Mark II for long-reach applications (17MP in APS-c mode) and no information about the usability of the viewfinder (I find all Sony's and both Canon's to be unusable, so whether or not I ever switch away from SLRs depends heavily on this point).



For those who need higher pixel density, they could swap in the sensor from the 90D / M6 MkII. If they also add the new AF Smart Controller from the 1DX III, and an improved viewfinder, this could end up being a truly impressive replacement for the 7D II.


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

Well, this body - if true - will be a big step forward, near the Sony bodies and in video even much better. There must be an superfast card inside. to get 8k/30 or 4k/120. Wow. I´d be happy with half of these video features.
Hurting, that there will be no 75MP or even 50-60. For birding each pixel is welcome....
But in some years, when the main competitor will have 100MP, we will get 60 from our favourite brand. If I can still hold such an body - as of beeing very old - I´ll definitively buy one


----------



## JPB (Jan 29, 2020)

I don’t think the rumor is true. Makes no sense that they wouldn’t put for instance 4K/120 in the 1dx mkiii if this was true. And why is there even a spec on the mechanical shutter?.. Normally when the release the 1D line the other cameras get some of its features. Not all of them and more. If the rumor would be true they would piss off a lot of professional photographers that went with the 1 dx mk 3


----------



## Gazwas (Jan 29, 2020)

xps said:


> Hurting, that there will be no 75MP or even 50-60. For birding each pixel is welcome....


Very wierd that all the talk previous was 70-80MP and we seem to be now getting half that resolution?

However, if all the video specs are correct and this new camera's Digic X turns out to be workstation class power, maybe the rumours of 80MP come from some sort of IBIS multi shot mode that can combine the images in camera? That would be a nice feature to have as it very much looks like the EOS RS will never be......


----------



## Joules (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Compression is a CPU-intensive process. Imagine zipping a 2 gigabyte file every second.


I hadn't looked at it in detail previously, but the compression going on in the 1DX III seems remarkable. In its 5.5K 60p 12-bit RAW video mode, uncompressed Bitrate should be:

5496*2904*60*12 = 10,959 Mbit/s

That's assuming this is true RAW data, not debayered or anything. Yet Canon quotes about 2600 Mbps as the data rate. That's less than 1/4. I wonder how lossless it is. 



Lee Jay said:


> No, REDs handle more, but they're expensive and write to ultra-fast SSDs.


Correct me if I'm wrong, I think RED is still stuck with plain old SATA SSDs?


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Photography itself isn't art. Processing, using and exposing it to the public makes it art.


Utter hog wash. Google: Ming Thein photography. See some images. Photography is an art of capturing light. Art of composition, exposing an inner beauty of your subject. 
You cannot turn a snapshot into a state of art by processing. Photography is a story telling. There is no point processing a snapshot that tells no story.


----------



## AlanF (Jan 29, 2020)

UlricWolf said:


> What do You mean “unusable”??? What else You want in EVF to be “usable”?


He made it absolutely clear he was talking about "long-reach applications". EVFs are very good for many situations but not for his specifically stated purposes.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Believe it or not: I shot many years cameras with only one single film loaded, no safety back-up film possible. Risky times back then, I hardly survived...


Risking some 30-ish photos at a time. Not thousands Shots at a time Right?


----------



## bbb34 (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> If you build everything in the scene, that's art. If there's a person in it (or a plant, or other naturally-occurring object), then it's not, it's craft, skill and technique,
> 
> [...]
> 
> I think it's interesting that all those start with nothing, except photography. Photography starts with some sort of scene. If you create the scene, that's art. If you don't, it's not, at least to me.



Painters start with a canvas and paint. Only few of them produce their own materials from other materials. Either way, they start with existing materials.
Mosaics start from tiles.
Printmaking starts from a matrix. 
Calligraphy starts with pen or brush, and paper or canvas. 
Architecture starts from a landscape.
Pottery starts from existing clay.
Sculpture start from an existing chunk of material.
Conceptual art is different. 
Poetry starts from existing language.
Music starts from existing scales, patterns, and instruments.
Neither of these crafts produce only art. Lots of the outcome of all of them is ordinary.

Photography fits well into this list. An existing scene and existing objects or subjects may be used. The light coming from the scene is the paint. The camera is the canvas. There is no commonly accepted rule when a photograph is ordinary, and when it becomes art. Fact is, that there are photographs that are beautiful, have a message, are touching, are difficult to reproduce, or stand above the scene they emerge from. Photographic art is some combination of these.

Enjoying art is subjective, but the classification into art and not art is a matter of common perception. 

Many pieces of art require the observer to become aware of the context and/or the artists intentions. Without such additional information, the point of the artwork often remains concealed.

Open your mind, and you will see more of a beautiful world.


----------



## snoke (Jan 29, 2020)

This camera Canon want like 5D Mark II: sold out more than 12 months after release. Body have patent for EF+RF?



justaCanonuser said:


> My guess: an SLR is even more complex and costly to produce, e.g. it needs a separate phase AF sensor etc. ...



Mirror, mirror box, prism. All add expense.



Gazwas said:


> Very wierd that all the talk previous was 70-80MP and we seem to be now getting half that resolution?



That camera later. Not this camera.



SecureGSM said:


> Risking some 30-ish photos at a time. Not thousands Shots at a time Right?



Buy smaller card, less photos, less risk. 8x8GB, 1 card bad, 1/8 photos gone. 2x32GB, 1 card bad, 1/2 photos gone.


----------



## Joules (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I think it's interesting that all those start with nothing, except photography. Photography starts with some sort of scene. If you create the scene, that's art. If you don't, it's not, at least to me.


I won't argue your opinion is wrong as long as you're also fine with others seeing things as art that you don't.

But I'm curious about a thing. You said logic plays a big role in how your opinion is formed. And that art is the act or product of taking something, which has a shape or character that you consider 'nothing' (Like a blob of paint or lump of clay) and giving it a shape and character that you came up with. That's how I understand your position.

If that is correct, it is incomplete, as it doesn't exclude things like the dishes in my kitchen or the chairs in my living room from being art. What element has to be added to the product or process of art, to differentiate it from creation of such commodities in your view?

Like I said, a question out of curiosity, not because I want to belittle or discredit your perception of art.


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Very wierd that all the talk previous was 70-80MP and we seem to be now getting half that resolution?
> 
> However, if all the video specs are correct and this new camera's Digic X turns out to be workstation class power, maybe the rumours of 80MP come from some sort of IBIS multi shot mode that can combine the images in camera? That would be a nice feature to have as it very much looks like the EOS RS will never be......


Could be true. 
I use this feature on the Sony 7RIV, but if you go pixelpeeping, you find a lot of pixel-errors because of movements in landscape e.g. Works, if the object is really static.


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

Pricing?
I guess 4500$ - 4800€ in Europe


----------



## reef58 (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Photography is not an art? What Does it mean to you then? Just courious



Yes if photography was not an art everyone could take great pictures. There would be no distinction. I am not sure how anyone could look at the portraits taken by Newman and say they are not art, but to each their own.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

snoke said:


> This camera Canon want like 5D Mark II: sold out more than 12 months after release. Body have patent for EF+RF?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I am taking about a thousand photos per hour when shooting sports or theatre. That’s your 32gb card full. Do you suggest that I Should replace 8gb cards every 15 minutes in darkness? Great advise. But no thank you. I shoot writing to 2 x 128Gb cards Simultaneously. That’s what the second card slot is for.


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

BTW: If the rumors are not true, the intentor of this rumor did a lot of advertise for Canon. Maybe this is profitable for both.


----------



## ethermine (Jan 29, 2020)

8k vid in this at a decent consumer price would serve several positives in several markets. One being it would further validate the production and consideration of purchasing an 8k TV. 8k is relatively new tech on the general consumers radar, and these companies would love for them to catch on in greater numbers. Canons chess play of bringing 8k 30fps RAW in a more price friendlier consumer product just might be a move it actually considered, realizing the sales potential of this camera in greater numbers that may more than makes up for the similarly specced cameras sold at $10-20k+. 8k 30fps RAW tech can’t stay at astronomical prices forever, and the history of leading edge tech can certainly attest to the trend. Canon just may play a decent role in normalizing this next standard of high definition.

I’m a stills guy through and through, but I can certainly appreciate the tech and can understand why Canon might just add this to a lower priced camera like the R5. Might even get me to toy around with the 4K settings and try my hand at video.

P.S. I’m personally not terribly concerned about the used market being hit drastically, or me losing more value from my vast EF lens collection. Any one that has run a successful photography business had their lenses paid and written off, and the monies made from selling them off for any amount would be a reasonable proposition if you “need” to upgrade to the latest tech. If I need to invest $20-40k+ in an entire new set of equipment that’ll last me for the next 5 years, then it’s a paltry investment considering my return. 

Now, if you’re a hobbyist or amateur (someone not able to financially sustain themselves consistently and comfortably from their work) and are buying gear for the trend of it all and don’t really “need” it, then I can see how you’ll want the perfect price points to justify it.This R5 just may be the answer that makes both the professional and hobbyist happy. We shall see! Exciting times ahead.


----------



## bbb34 (Jan 29, 2020)

xps said:


> BTW: If the rumors are not true, the intentor of this rumor did a lot of advertise for Canon. Maybe this is profitable for both.



Exactly. I don't believe in all these unintended leakages. I'm convinced this is all part of an orchestrated information theater. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. We get some early information, the opportunity to let off steam, and plenty of entertainment.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Utter hog wash. Google: Ming Thein photography. See some images. Photography is an art of capturing light. Art of composition, exposing an inner beauty of your subject.
> You cannot turn a snapshot into a state of art by processing. Photography is a story telling. There is no point processing a snapshot that tells no story.



Nope. Photography is a physical and in digital era, digital process of capturing images.
It becomes art exactly when you're trying to tell a story or fine tune the composition.

Otherwise photography can be used for scientific or surveying purposes etc. and nobody considers that an artwork.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

I do not care for video too but


xps said:


> Pricing?
> I guess 4500$ - 4800€ in Europe


That price range for the Europe price hit me hard. I Hope you are wrong!
I cannot even hope to get one cheaper via UK grey importers since after Brexit there will be taxes for the rest of the Europe...


----------



## zonoskar (Jan 29, 2020)

Teknon said:


> Here come the "This camera is junk - it has a crop at 8k" complaints


It can't have a crop at 8K because the sensor has barely enough res for 8K

But what if the 8K 30fps thing is just like the RAW burst mode the EOS-M6-II has?


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> I do not care for video too but
> 
> That price range for the Europe price hit me hard. I Hope you are wrong!
> I cannot even hope to get one cheaper via UK grey importers since after Brexit there will be taxes for the rest of the Europe...


Well... the 1DXIII is (via www) 6500$ in US - and 7300€ in Germany... 
Ordered the 5D IV back in 2016 at 4099€... so 4500 should be possible. I do hope for cheaper prices too.

I do believe, Canon will milk the cow an much as possible.


----------



## londonxt (Jan 29, 2020)

Dank13 said:


> so pretty much canon is going from the no-go camera for video to the holly grail if all video mirrorless cameras in one single update?
> 
> Some how i think this is a Santa's wish list to Canon other than the real specs of this camera....
> 
> ...



errr you dont remember the EOS 5D MKII?


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

zonoskar said:


> It can't have a crop at 8K because the sensor has barely enough res for 8K
> 
> But what if the 8K 30fps thing is just like the RAW burst mode the EOS-M6-II has?


Wikipedia writes:

Bildseiten-
verhältnisSpaltenZeilenPixelanzahl
(Megapixel)4:38192614450,316:98192460837,7≈17:9 (8K)8192432035,316:9 (UHD-II)7680432033,23:26480432028,04:35760432024,91:14320432018,7

So, just an question of definition. UHD-II should be possible


----------



## Deleted member 68328 (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> It’s a given feature. Why would Canon not to include one in 5D level camera body?


Because GPS sucks battery life which is already an issue on mirrorless


----------



## Alex784 (Jan 29, 2020)

xps said:


> Well... the 1DXIII is (via www) 6500$ in US - and 7300€ in Germany...
> Ordered the 5D IV back in 2016 at 4099€... so 4500 should be possible. I do hope for cheaper prices too.
> 
> I do believe, Canon will milk the cow an much as possible.


6500$ in US + sales taxes.

6.850€ in Switzerland incl. VAT and you can get the 5% VAT back if you make your purchase stamped...


----------



## Alex784 (Jan 29, 2020)

If it is true and it is really officially announced before CP+ (Feb 27th), then many 1DX3 pre-orders would be cancelled or returned:
indeed, 1DX3 will be released on Feb 13th and people would have 2 weeks to return them.

Personally, I'm no longer sure to keep my 1DX3 if a better and cheaper body will make it obsolete 2 weeks later.


----------



## Bahrd (Jan 29, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Believe it or not: I shot many years cameras with only one single film loaded, no safety back-up film possible. Risky times back then, I hardly survived...


Anyway, an internal SSD (or something like that) - instead of a second card slot - wouldn't be a bad thing.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 29, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> About time canon
> 2020 is gonna be a good year
> 
> and for the boomers that don’tthink mirrorless is the future well...



Yeah, and the 5D Mark V will be introduced at the same time (ala 90D/M6 Mark II) with the same sensor and most of the same video specs.


----------



## zonoskar (Jan 29, 2020)

xps said:


> Wikipedia writes:
> 
> Bildseiten-
> verhältnisSpaltenZeilenPixelanzahl
> ...


8K needs 8129 pixels wide. To make photo's you need a 3:2 sensor. So that would be 8192x5460 = 44.7 MP. That will yield 8192x4320 video if you cut off the top and bottom a bit (this is not what is considered a crop). Alternatively, UHD-II needs 7680x5120 pixels on a 3:2 sensor, this is 39 MP.

So if this sensor has 45MP and does 8K video, it won't be a crop in case of real 8K and a slight crop in case of UHD-II.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> What no GPS???? Getting it from a smartphone with Canon Camera Connect is an option but not fail proof. Of course bluetooth spends much less battery than GPS so maybe this is the reason.



Well, it didn't mention any kind of rear LCD screen, either, so I guess it won't have one of those? Right?


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

yoms said:


> Because GPS sucks battery life which is already an issue on mirrorless


Because there is no option to switch the GPS option off in menu? Got it!


----------



## BillB (Jan 29, 2020)

canonnews said:


> No one can say, well sony gives you better bang for the buck when this one shoots EIGHT freaking KAY video in raw mode.


You underestimate the Sony cyber flacks and all the wannabes.


----------



## twoheadedboy (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I know.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't consider it art unless you start with nothing, like the composer and a blank sheet of music, a sculptor with a block of marble, a painter with a blank canvas, or a sculptor with a lump of clay. Using technology to record what's already there is a skill or craft, not an art. It's the difference between the composer of a piece of music and the audio technician who records the performance in the studio. The audio technician isn't an artist. He has to have skill and that skill matters a lot for the final result, I just wouldn't call it art because it's not being created from nothing, just recorded. Like photography.



This is a really bad take. Art is expression, it's about the emotion it tries to evoke from its audience. There are sculptors who work with junk and other finished goods, not just clay or stone. There is a subset of photography and sound that attempts to accurately reproduce what is seen/heard and nothing more, but in both areas you have many examples of artists who add interpretation, which affects the emotional impact. For example, Steve Albini on the production front; his production techniques are instantly recognizable. Ansel Adams was essentially a landscape painter that used a camera and darkroom instead of a brush. It's just bizarre to be so focused on the equipment that one does nit understand what is being done with it.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 29, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> 45 MP is no longer considered "high-res", though, so I'm guessing that any "R5s" camera will be that ~80 (??) MP sensor people were rumoring.
> 
> 45 MP is the new "normal", especially since Canon continues to perfect their mRAW technology.
> 
> (Although, I'm still waiting for lossy compression and 12-bit options, though, for truly high-volume work, like action sports or weddings.Those are much better solutions than 1/2 megapixel mRAW with 14-bit lossless compression that simply doesn't save the same %% in file size as it compromises in resolution...)



Haven't you been paying attention lately? The latest cameras with .CR3 raw files do not have M-RAW or S-RAW. They do have C-RAW (compressed raw).


----------



## twoheadedboy (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> If you build everything in the scene, that's art. If there's a person in it (or a plant, or other naturally-occurring object), then it's not, it's craft, skill and technique, like an audio recording technician who creates the acoustics of the room, selects the microphones and their locations, arranges the levels, equalization and effects, records and later mixes the sound. That's a highly-skilled task, but it's not art by my definition.
> 
> From wikipedia:
> 
> ...



So because Ansel Adams didn't create Yosemite, he's not an artist? And people who paint landscapes - even interpreted, or with techniques like pointillism - aren't either?


----------



## Malm (Jan 29, 2020)

Hi!


tron said:


> ...
> That price range for the Europe price hit me hard. I Hope you are wrong!
> I cannot even hope to get one cheaper via UK grey importers since after Brexit there will be taxes for the rest of the Europe...


Don't worry, that's just another of this Brexit lies. At least until the end of 2020 everything will stay the same (OK, some people are kicked out off the EU parliament), but the UK will trade, travel and pay with Europe like before. If grey imports are a good solution is another topic.
BTW: I don't believe these specifications until Canon confirms them.


----------



## BillB (Jan 29, 2020)

Dank13 said:


> Unless someone on Canon got sacked and a new managing guy took over it and change all Canon's ideas of what a great camera should have for specs, i'm 110% sure those specs won't happen in the next 4 years. They only started doing 4K on their cameras 1yr ago, do you have any idea how long its going to take for them to add 8K???? not to mention there isn't technology available to do that on a mirrorless camera yet.


Canon clearly made a decision not to rush its new mirrorless technology to market. It looks like it's getting ready to roll out what it has been working on for quite a while now. At this point, I don't think what Canon has put on the market over the last few years gives much of a clue as to what Canon can and will do next. It's been a while, but this wouldn't be the first time that Canon changed the name of the game very quickly.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 29, 2020)

Better image quality than a 5DSR, 12 FPS, and possibly the best video specs ever seen in a sub $50k camera and people still find stuff to complain about. I’m the first one to gripe when I think Canon is slacking but if these specs are correct this is going to be an insanely good camera. Can’t wait to see the official release.


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

Alex784 said:


> 6500$ in US + sales taxes.
> 
> 6.850€ in Switzerland incl. VAT and you can get the 5% VAT back if you make your purchase stamped...


Thanks. But hat problems with CPS, as Switzerland is not in the EU


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Yeah, and the 5D Mark V will be introduced at the same time (ala 90D/M6 Mark II) with the same sensor and most of the same video specs.


Would be GREAT!!! OVF!!!


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> OH CRAP HE [CR3]'D IT
> 
> S--- just got kinda theoretically real
> 
> ...


----------



## syyeung1 (Jan 29, 2020)

But it doesn’t have 8k 120 video nor it will warm my coffee. Useless!!!


----------



## slclick (Jan 29, 2020)

As both a jazz musician and a visual artist, there is contrast in the labels but not in the creativity.


----------



## snoke (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I shoot writing to 2 x 128Gb cards Simultaneously. That’s what the second card slot is for.



That you. Some use 2x128GB for total 256GB. Not everyone same.



Alex784 said:


> If it is true and it is really officially announced before CP+ (Feb 27th), then many 1DX3 pre-orders would be cancelled or returned:



Why? 1DX3 have many important pro features not in 5D/R5.



bbb34 said:


> I don't believe in all these unintended leakages. I'm convinced this is all part of an orchestrated information theater. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. We get some early information, the opportunity to let off steam, and plenty of entertainment.



+1, good leaking important marketing.


----------



## BeenThere (Jan 29, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Is it April 1st? This seems beyond incredible. Although i am not surprised that Canon would have been aiming to release something exceptional in order to trounce the opposition.


.... and sell a bunch of cameras.


----------



## Architect1776 (Jan 29, 2020)

If this is true, especially the MP and IBIS this will be my next camera. Been many years as my last one was the 7D.
This hopefully will have IBIS work with manual lenses as well because I will be using all my old FD, FL and R lenses with this camera. No they are not modern state of the art and for detailed landscapes not ideal but the FL 55 mm f1.2 I want to bring back to life in the digital era among other lenses.


----------



## Architect1776 (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Same here. Everyone I've heard from who owns and regularly uses a DX2 does NOT want a smaller/thinner/more compact body. Weight balancing against larger glass is one of the DX lines BEST features. If/When the 1DX line goes MILC, then I'm betting Canon is going to keep the body almost exactly like it is and just (more or less) remove the mirror, pentaprism, and push the sensor forward in the body towards the flange to get the proper RF distance. Or (the CRAZY-TOWN version) puts a sensor on a rail that can slide it back and forth into position for both EF and RF glass and have interchangeable mounts. Bat-Poop crazy but hey, that is the sort of cool stuff Canon would come up with.



And they say Canon cannot innovate. Again, just like the EF system was late to the AF dance it showed up like the Princess that showed up after all were there and stopped the show. Well Canon seems to do this and this looks like another show stopper and what is to come. For older people the F-1 system was similar in advancement over the old F but it was unable to dominate as the EF did and crushed the competition for 30+ years.


----------



## BeenThere (Jan 29, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> I didn't miss anything, I saw the CR3. A rumor site declaring something "fact" doesn't make it so, of course.
> 
> There's simply no way a 5-series camera has 8K raw video. (it would have to be relatively un-cropped to be 8K on a 45 MP sensor, BTW) At most, I'd maybe believe 4K 30p RAW, in a cropped 1:1 pixel mode, MAYBE.
> 
> ...


I don’t care about 8K raw, as long as the rest of the rumor is true.


----------



## AccipiterQ (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I was thinking $3k to $3.5K. Starting to wonder if this will be priced like the 5Dc was.



Yeah I was thinking right in the middle of that range...It's not going to be the 1D R equivalent so you would think below $5K, and I can't picture them putting this out at $4K because then you'd have a chasm between the original R and this for price.


----------



## Optics Patent (Jan 29, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> This is a really bad take. Art is expression, it's about the emotion it tries to evoke from its audience. There are sculptors who work with junk and other finished goods, not just clay or stone. There is a subset of photography and sound that attempts to accurately reproduce what is seen/heard and nothing more, but in both areas you have many examples of artists who add interpretation, which affects the emotional impact. For example, Steve Albini on the production front; his production techniques are instantly recognizable. Ansel Adams was essentially a landscape painter that used a camera and darkroom instead of a brush. It's just bizarre to be so focused on the equipment that one does nit understand what is being done with it.



It's not music unless you first build the piano.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Or the rumor came straight from Canon through a couple of layers of misdirection. The only Item I question is the delivery date. The 1DX III was in DPR's hands weeks before the announcement and the availability date was very quick, particularly for a 1 series. It makes no sense that they would put a 6 month delay in a 5 series camera unless they have a hell of a lot of inventory to flush at bargain prices in the meantime.


Not a good idea to give your competition six months to react. That’s why it is rarely done. Canon doesn’t much issue product road maps, likely to avoid tipping the competition, so I can’t really imagine them giving six months warning on this.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> Yeah I was thinking right in the middle of that range...It's not going to be the 1D R equivalent so you would think below $5K, and I can't picture them putting this out at $4K because then you'd have a chasm between the original R and this for price.


Correct the original EOS R with a very nice 30Mpixel sensor although not respected much is not irrelevant. 
It can do low light, landscape, travel photo and has room for cropping if required. I wouldn't sell it for less than 1.5K euros to get a 4K euro camera which - since I do not care for video - is not 3 - not even 2 - times better! 

But let's have the camera available first and worry for the price afterwards!


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## Mark3794 (Jan 29, 2020)

"Although we have launched two full-frame mirrorless cameras as well as ten dedicated lenses, our lineup is still insufficient. In order to recover from our late entry into the mirrorless camera market, we have plans to launch a model that incorporates a newly developed image sensor and image-processing engine that offer even more advanced features. We will work to raise our presence in the mirrorless camera category, leveraging large trade exhibitions around the world. Even amid increasing competition, we will expand sales of higher-end models driven by new products and aim for top market share even in the mirrorless camera market."

From canon press conference today


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

Malm said:


> Hi!
> 
> Don't worry, that's just another of this Brexit lies. At least until the end of 2020 everything will stay the same (OK, some people are kicked out off the EU parliament), but the UK will trade, travel and pay with Europe like before. If grey imports are a good solution is another topic.
> BTW: I don't believe these specifications until Canon confirms them.


 I agree on this. 

Regarding grey import this is an excellent solution for me. I will not advertise anyone but I have a specific seller who - once I had the impression that my EOS5DMkIV had an issue because I pushed it probably illogically hard on shadows - sent UPS at home, took my 5DIV and 2 weeks later delivered another! So I trust them 100% And the prices are very good. I am their loyal customer since 2013.


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## Dank13 (Jan 29, 2020)

londonxt said:


> errr you dont remember the EOS 5D MKII?


Yes I do, still no massive things... we all know canon always been super protective or their video cameras and they never wanted to canibalize their own products... 

I really don't think those specs are remotely truth, specially after the recent release of the new 1dx mK iii that is not even close to those specs... 

Although I really wish those Rumors were truth, as I'm currently on the market for a new camera, and video is my priority, so I'm seriously considering parting ways with my canon 50D and lenses to the Sony family... but I'm really sad about it as I've always been a canon only guy, from my point and shoot, to my first DSLR to my 30d then my 50d... Canon always been in my life...


----------



## pedroesteban (Jan 29, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> "Although we have launched two full-frame mirrorless cameras as well as ten dedicated lenses, our lineup is still insufficient. In order to recover from our late entry into the mirrorless camera market, we have plans to launch a model that incorporates a newly developed image sensor and image-processing engine that offer even more advanced features. We will work to raise our presence in the mirrorless camera category, leveraging large trade exhibitions around the world. Even amid increasing competition, we will expand sales of higher-end models driven by new products and aim for top market share even in the mirrorless camera market."
> 
> From canon press conference today



Complete transcript available here: https://global.canon/en/ir/conference/pdf/conf2019e-note.pdf
See pages 13 and 14 for info on cameras.


----------



## masterpix (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Same shape as the 5D4 _*battery*_. I believe we're talking about the battery there.
> 
> Mechanical = the shutter (mirrorless rigs still have those). A mechanical shutter like we have in just about every ILC is (generally) preferable, but eventually it will rate-limit the fps, so an e-shutter opens up the door for higher framerates.
> 
> - A


Thanks for the explanation on the sutter. I do see now that they corected the "same shape" to note it referes to the battery and not the camera body. However, Canon could have used the same body (the 5D for that matter) for their mirrorless cameras, it only needs the new mount and to move the sensor fowrawd leaving the room for the IBIS behind it. The DSLR's argonomics is almost perfect.


----------



## vjlex (Jan 29, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> "Although we have launched two full-frame mirrorless cameras as well as ten dedicated lenses, our lineup is still insufficient. In order to recover from our late entry into the mirrorless camera market, we have plans to launch a model that incorporates a newly developed image sensor and image-processing engine that offer even more advanced features. We will work to raise our presence in the mirrorless camera category, leveraging large trade exhibitions around the world. Even amid increasing competition, we will expand sales of higher-end models driven by new products and aim for top market share even in the mirrorless camera market."
> 
> From canon press conference today


In other words, "We're just getting started!"


----------



## snoke (Jan 29, 2020)

Dank13 said:


> Yes I do, still no massive things... we all know canon always been super protective or their video cameras and they never wanted to canibalize their own products...



You wrong. 5D Mark II invent new market. First Canon video DSLR. No C-series. Only handycam. 5D Mark II was revolution camera. Canon goal R5 also revolution camera. R5 new benchmark. Nobody want Sony/Nikon for video if this R5 exist, everyone want Canon.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jan 29, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> This is a really bad take. Art is expression, it's about the emotion it tries to evoke from its audience. There are sculptors who work with junk and other finished goods, not just clay or stone. There is a subset of photography and sound that attempts to accurately reproduce what is seen/heard and nothing more, but in both areas you have many examples of artists who add interpretation, which affects the emotional impact. For example, Steve Albini on the production front; his production techniques are instantly recognizable. Ansel Adams was essentially a landscape painter that used a camera and darkroom instead of a brush. It's just bizarre to be so focused on the equipment that one does nit understand what is being done with it.


I totally agree with you and you are touching on some big themes there. For some, photography is purely a mechanism of recording. However, there is always a degree of interpretation...after all we are capturing a 2 dimensional representation of a 3D world. Hence the phrase "all photography is a lie". For some, a camera is a service, for some a device, or others a curiosity, for others an art. 
I can order a coffee from McDonalds or from my local art Barista...both contain the same elements and the same materials. However...they have an entirely different emotional impact on me. 

A long while ago I went through the whole purist phase...no filters...just the camera and lens...minimal editing etc. It was a nice discipline but ultimately a flawed thought process. The Sensor has an IR filter placed over it to make the images more palatable. The lens has coatings that effect the colour response. The camera has a codec that interpret the colours (to give that Canon look). So it's all open for adjustment, tweaking, interpreting and choice. There is no right and wrong, only guides, narrative and impact. A photo could win 1st place using the WCPF judging rules (a 20 point system) and yet be utterly boring and have zero impact on the viewer. Or a photo could have blown highlights, lowlights, wonky horizons...no glint in a eye...symmetrical framing etc etc and yet be utterly enthralling. 
Some photographers worry about settings and dials, others worry about light, others worry about narrative, others worry about atmosphere and ambiance. Neither is wrong or right.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

snoke said:


> That you. Some use 2x128GB for total 256GB. Not everyone same.


sure sure. And some use a bunch of 8gb cards for redundancy. as you have suggested


----------



## Kit. (Jan 29, 2020)

xps said:


> Thanks. But hat problems with CPS, as Switzerland is not in the EU


There shouldn't be any problem. It's CPS EMEA, not CPS EU.


----------



## BeenThere (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Never, until they come up with a true upgrade or my needs drastically change from now.
> 
> In 2016 I upgraded from a full-frame 5D to the crop 7DII, and that was a great choice for me. My lens kit is now built around that camera, and four of my lenses are crop-lenses.


Better buy a few spare 7D2 s for your old age.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's incorrect and things are more complicated. There's well capacity factor and it contributes to the DR.



And the smaller the photosite, the lower the read noise.




> And well capacity depends on the pixel size, although there are methods to improve it on smaller pixels. More on this you can find in this good article https://clarkvision.com/articles/does.pixel.size.matter/#sensorconstant



That article can be safely ignored because it's full of wrong information.

Ask yourself this question. How can a Powershot S120, with teeny tiny pixels, have 11.7 stops of DR:



Sensorgen.info data for Canon PowerShot-S120



and the 1Dx with huge pixels have 11.2 stops:



Sensorgen.info data for Canon EOS-1DX



if pixel size were a major driving factor?


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> But how is composing and improvising on a tool manufactured by someone else different than capturing a view or moment that no-one else has _on a camera_?



One is created in the mind of the artist, one is captured from the universe by the tool in the hands of the technician.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jan 29, 2020)

Regarding Craig's latest update to the specs (removing RAW from 8K30), isn't the sensor pixels (8192x5460=~44.7MP) already being read at least 30 times a second to feed the EVF? Why do some people assume the 8K is a time-lapse, which involves more processing?


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Photography is not an art? What Does it mean to you then? Just courious



Photography is a means of documentation that can, if desired, be done in an aesthetically pleasing way.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

UlricWolf said:


> What do You mean “unusable”??? What else You want in EVF to be “usable”?



Not too bright in dark environments, not too dim in bright environments, not laggy, not blurry when panning, doesn't slow down or get noisy in dark conditions, doesn't crush blacks, doesn't blowout whites, doesn't suck power like crazy.


----------



## Lenscracker (Jan 29, 2020)

Does R5 have an interval timer, HDR choices, USB charge port, sensor shield? Things I use all the time or want constantly. If so, I want to preorder now.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Joules said:


> I won't argue your opinion is wrong as long as you're also fine with others seeing things as art that you don't.
> 
> But I'm curious about a thing. You said logic plays a big role in how your opinion is formed. And that art is the act or product of taking something, which has a shape or character that you consider 'nothing' (Like a blob of paint or lump of clay) and giving it a shape and character that you came up with. That's how I understand your position.
> 
> If that is correct, it is incomplete, as it doesn't exclude things like the dishes in my kitchen or the chairs in my living room from being art.



Just because all art forms accepted (except photography) can start from nothing doesn't mean that everything that is started from nothing is art. Assuming so would be a logical fallacy. Art also has to have a creative element and be aesthetically pleasing to at least some people (most art is aesthetically pleasing to a small fraction of the population).


----------



## DBounce (Jan 29, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> "Although we have launched two full-frame mirrorless cameras as well as ten dedicated lenses, our lineup is still insufficient. In order to recover from our late entry into the mirrorless camera market, we have plans to launch a model that incorporates a newly developed image sensor and image-processing engine that offer even more advanced features. We will work to raise our presence in the mirrorless camera category, leveraging large trade exhibitions around the world. Even amid increasing competition, we will expand sales of higher-end models driven by new products and aim for top market share even in the mirrorless camera market."
> 
> From canon press conference today



Maybe 8K raw is true after all? Sony A7S MK who?


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> So because Ansel Adams didn't create Yosemite, he's not an artist?



Correct.



> And people who paint landscapes - even interpreted, or with techniques like pointillism - aren't either?



They are - because of the interpretation. They are adding their own creativity to what is there.

I've seen many artists paint landscapes in a studio - landscapes they came up with entirely from their mind based on past experiences and their own imagination. That's art. Shooting a picture of a landscape, no matter how expertly done, isn't art to me, it's skill.

It's funny how many photographers defend photography as an art. I think it's insecurity - they are unwilling as a group to admit they do photography because they aren't very artistic. I just happen to be a photographer that's willing to admit that fact, and that's uncomfortable to many people. I think most people who call themselves "fine art photographers" would be painters if they had the talent and skill to do so. They don't, so they took up photography. Some then became greatly skilled in photography, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. In fact, I think it takes a lot of skill to become good at at least some types of photography, probably most types.


----------



## mppix (Jan 29, 2020)

Sounds too good to be true but it may simply show that Canon didn't plan for high video specs until a few years ago and didn't have the processor (and maybe sensor) to do it. Now it all depends on AF performance...


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Regarding Craig's latest update to the specs (removing RAW from 8K30), isn't the sensor pixels (8192x5460=~44.7MP) already being read at least 30 times a second to feed the EVF?



Unlikely.

The EVF is probably 1600x1200 or something similar (there are a lot of possible options including different aspect ratios), so it's entirely possible (and highly likely) that tons of rows and columns are being skipped during read out to feed that EVF (which is one reason EVFs have such bad video artifacts). And I'd certainly hope that the EVF is being updated way, way faster than 30fps. I consider under 200 to be unusable but most people are happy with 60-120fps. Few would be happy with 30fps.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Better buy a few spare 7D2 s for your old age.



I'm wondering how old you think I am. I'll give you a hint, I have a kid in elementary school and I didn't have my kids exceptionally late in life.


----------



## canonnews (Jan 29, 2020)

cellomaster27 said:


> guys guys.. this is ridiculous. You know how canon tries to keep the cinema line separate.. t


actually they do not. that's an internet myth.
canon as specifically stated. empathically and clearly that they do not separate and worry about competition with the CINI line. People that buy CINI cameras aren't going to decide not to buy a CINI camera and turn around and purchase a 4K mirrorless or DSLR.


----------



## BillB (Jan 29, 2020)

[



mppix said:


> Sounds too good to be true but it may simply show that Canon didn't plan for high video specs until a few years ago and didn't have the processor (and maybe sensor) to do it. Now it all depends on AF performance...


I think a major canon decision in the video/mirrorless world was to develop dual pixel technology and that goes back quite a ways now. After that, it was about where they wanted to go and when they could get there.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You've certainly generated an interesting sub-thread here, Lee Jay. I'm not sure why, but, you have, and photographers and critics have been debating this point for well over a century.

However, your earlier definition of art stops at the 17th Century, basically nullifying any works that don't fall within its 400 year old perspectives.

Not all photographs are art. Not all lumps of clay poked and pinched by a toddler are art. (Or are they?)

Some buildings are just buildings. But some are architectural art masterpieces.

Without art, how could there be art critics? But without art critics, who defines art? 

It's my opinion that if we reject the critics entirely, all and nothing is art.

But some photographs cause the viewer's soul to sing, and I would call that art. And I say this is independent of the type of subject, whether it is a child, an especially beautiful person captured in exquisite light, a landscape, etc.

Here are two more questions: If somebody uses found objects to create a still-life, is that art? And would the photograph of that still-life be part of the creation, or merely documentation?

Surely you would understand that many people reading your post quoted above would wonder if you are simply projecting your feelings about your photography onto all other photographers.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Here are two more questions: If somebody uses found objects to create a still-life, is that art? And would the photograph of that still-life be part of the creation, or merely documentation?



Probably documentation, but it depends on how much of the scene they created.



> Surely you would understand that many people reading your post quoted above would wonder if you are simply projecting your feelings about your photography onto all other photographers.



I've been to many art museums in many cities and I've been to many art shows, and I've never seen any photography I'd call art, from any photographer. Some people who have seen some of my photography think it's art, even though I don't.


----------



## Go Wild (Jan 29, 2020)

canonnews said:


> actually they do not. that's an internet myth.
> canon as specifically stated. empathically and clearly that they do not separate and worry about competition with the CINI line. People that buy CINI cameras aren't going to decide not to buy a CINI camera and turn around and purchase a 4K mirrorless or DSLR.



Correct! And of course also depends on the type of movie you are making, the budgets, etc...etc....not everyone needs a cine camera, nor everyone can do their jobs with mirrorless. Cine cameras have other specific things different from mirrorless. 

About the update: 

Well, that was the major thing in the rumor that i was doubting! 8k raw sounded really "too much". Maybe this is a timelapse feature for 8k timelapse videos. That would be quite good! 
Praying that most of the rumors are correct, I really want to buy this one!


----------



## richperson (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Correct.
> 
> It's funny how many photographers defend photography as an art. I think it's insecurity - they are unwilling as a group to admit they do photography because they aren't very artistic. I just happen to be a photographer that's willing to admit that fact, and that's uncomfortable to many people. I think most people who call themselves "fine art photographers" would be painters if they had the talent and skill to do so. They don't, so they took up photography. Some then became greatly skilled in photography, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. In fact, I think it takes a lot of skill to become good at at least some types of photography, probably most types.



We should call up the academy and tell them to get rid of awards for cinematography. 

I understand your point, but think you will find yourself in the minority. A plain picture of something without any thought is not very artistic, but a photographer who looks for the perfect angle and the perfect lighting for what he is trying to capture is clearly an artist. I think of Nigel Danson as one current example of a photographer that would be extremely difficult to argue is not an artist. Of course there are degrees between someone like him and Adams and the point and shoot person.


----------



## bergstrom (Jan 29, 2020)

did i read the eos r had no ai servo? Hoping this has it. But it would probably be ayear after release that i even think of buying it.


----------



## DBounce (Jan 29, 2020)

mppix said:


> Sounds too good to be true but it may simply show that Canon didn't plan for high video specs until a few years ago and didn't have the processor (and maybe sensor) to do it. Now it all depends on AF performance...



Hopefully these cameras will sport the new quad pixel autofocus that is supposed to be the successor to the current dual pixel AF.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jan 29, 2020)

The 8K 30fps could well be just a slightly cropped burst in e-shutter mode. If the camera can do 45MP at 20fps, maybe it can also do
30 fps with 25% less resolution. 8K video still sounds totally unrealistic, especially in RAW


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Just because all art forms accepted (except photography) can start from nothing doesn't mean that everything that is started from nothing is art. Assuming so would be a logical fallacy. Art also has to have a creative element and be aesthetically pleasing to at least some people (most art is aesthetically pleasing to a small fraction of the population).


Lee Jay, you do know the definition of art you posted included film... which is a form of photography.



Lee Jay said:


> Art also has to have a creative element and be aesthetically pleasing to at least some people (most art is aesthetically pleasing to a small fraction of the population).



Of course, I accept you individual definition for yourself. Playing devil's advocate.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 29, 2020)

shunsai said:


> In other words, "We're just getting started!"


All about mirrorless, not a word about DSLR. I’m not feeling a 5D5


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

xps said:


> Well... the 1DXIII is (via www) 6500$ in US - and 7300€ in Germany...
> Ordered the 5D IV back in 2016 at 4099€... so 4500 should be possible. I do hope for cheaper prices too.
> 
> I do believe, Canon will milk the cow an much as possible.


Yes I remember that 4000+€ price. But I had gotten it for about 3300something (grey import UK/hence my worries for Brexit next year). Waiting will soften the deal. But 7300!!!!!!! for 1DxIII Too much!

And yes Canon will continue milking no questions about it!


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 29, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> did i read the eos r had no ai servo? Hoping this has it. But it would probably be ayear after release that i even think of buying it.


The EOS R has AI Servo, and for what it's worth I've had better luck with it at wide apertures than I ever did with the AI Servo in the 5D4.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Lee Jay, you do know the definition of art you posted included film... which is a form of photography.



And my point was that photography sticks out as the one on that is captured instead of created.


----------



## zonoskar (Jan 29, 2020)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Regarding Craig's latest update to the specs (removing RAW from 8K30), isn't the sensor pixels (8192x5460=~44.7MP) already being read at least 30 times a second to feed the EVF? Why do some people assume the 8K is a time-lapse, which involves more processing?


To feed the EVF, you don't have to read all the lines from the sensor. For 8K video, you do.


----------



## sid.safari (Jan 29, 2020)

Wow...this seems almost too good to be true. It rivals and in some cases surpasses the upcoming 1dx III. 

Hope it's true, but won't be surprised if it isn't.


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

I guess my big question in all of this is whether or not this is indeed the 5DV equivalent mirrorless, or a replacement for the 5Ds/sR, or an amalgamation of the two lines. I'll admit, this would be a great upgrade from a 5DIV, but as someone who was looking forward to even more resolution, this has me left with mixed feelings.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 29, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> did i read the eos r had no ai servo? Hoping this has it. But it would probably be ayear after release that i even think of buying it.



Fine distinction. The R has Servo AF which functions the same as AI Servo does on the 5DIV and other dSLR's. However, the R has nothing explicitly identified as AI Focus, which is supposed to be a hybrid of One Shot AF and AI Servo AF, kicking in the Servo only when the subject starts moving.

I don't know anybody who has done more than try or play with AI Focus.

But, the simple answer is, the R does indeed have AI Servo AF, and it is incredibly precise. But it has been named Servo AF on this model.


----------



## mjg79 (Jan 29, 2020)

This will clearly be the update to the 5DIV if the specs are accurate - if so kudos to Canon for not trying to protect what I imagine is something of an Ef cash cow.

It strikes me that if they really give us IBIS that might help certain lenses like the 28-70/2 L. I have noticed it has come down lot in price both second hand and grey market. I think a lot of that was the 24-70/2.8 IS - finally for the first time Canon shooters had a full frame stabilised 2.8 normal zoom option. If we get IBIS though that means the 28-70 and the EF 24-70/2.8 both get stabilisation and that really opens up some good possibilities - making the 28-70 very feasible as a single lens to replace them all in the normal range, if you can cope with the weight and cost, and the Ef 24-70/2.8L as a very good priced way in.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

amorse said:


> I guess my big question in all of this is whether or not this is indeed the 5DV equivalent mirrorless, or a replacement for the 5Ds/sR, or an amalgamation of the two lines. I'll admit, this would be a great upgrade from a 5DIV, but as someone who was looking forward to even more resolution, this has me left with mixed feelings.


We cannot know but the rumors are that later a big mpixel body wil arrive. However a 45mpixel with imrpoved sensor and so many fps looks very promising in replacing both 5DMkIV and 5DsR (but we do not know whether it will have AA filter or not).


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> This will clearly be the update to the 5DIV if the specs are accurate - if so kudos to Canon for not trying to protect what I imagine is something of an Ef cash cow.
> 
> It strikes me that if they really give us IBIS that might help certain lenses like the 28-70/2 L. I have noticed it has come down lot in price both second hand and grey market. I think a lot of that was the 24-70/2.8 IS - finally for the first time Canon shooters had a full frame stabilised 2.8 normal zoom option. If we get IBIS though that means the 28-70 and the EF 24-70/2.8 both get stabilisation and that really opens up some good possibilities - making the 28-70 very feasible as a single lens to replace them all in the normal range, if you can cope with the weight and cost, and the Ef 24-70/2.8L as a very good priced way in.


Of course IBIS will be available on the new R bodies. This month I got RF24-70 2.8L IS and RF15-35 2.8L IS !


----------



## slclick (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Probably documentation, but it depends on how much of the scene they created.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been to many art museums in many cities and I've been to many art shows, and I've never seen any photography I'd call art, from any photographer. Some people who have seen some of my photography think it's art, even though I don't.


It doesn't matter if you call it art or not, it's not up to you or anyone else, it's art if the artist calls it art. Performance art, graffiti, bucket drumming in subways, skywriting, I don't care, it's not your call.The art argument will never be 'won', it's been going on since the dawn of time, it's far too amorphous and intangible of a concept overall. Now, declaring what you don't like is one thing, and I will always agree to disagree on artistic viewpoints but you sir cannot dictate what is and what is not art. You probably have a hard time as well with greenish blue and blueish green.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> And my point was that photography sticks out as the one on that is captured instead of created.


I'm kicking myself for being goaded into responding, but your responses are so absurd I can't help myself. Sorry fellow forum-ites, I really will try after this.

So, you are saying that Jeff Wall, Cindy Sherman, Jerry Uelsmann (to use just three examples) are artists because they create their images, but Robert Frank and Ansel Adams would not be artists because they interpret an existing scene before their eyes. And where would Edward Weston fall then. Are his nudes art because he posed them, but his pepper isn't because he selected it?

You really need to quit while you are behind.


----------



## Sharlin (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> And my point was that photography sticks out as the one on that is captured instead of created.



Drawing, painting, sculpture, even composing, are not intrinsically artistic. They're _technical_ skills just like photography. Art is the part where _your_ creation or capture distinguishes itself in some meaningful way from countless similar ones. Henri Cartier-Bresson's skill in picking "the decisive moment" was unquestionably artistic, not technical. Ansel Adam's darkroom work was artistic, not technical. And so on.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> And my point was that photography sticks out as the one on that is captured instead of created.


Again, we are back to what it means to "capture" something we see. If a person uses a pencil to sketch a scene, he/she is using a tool. But not all sketches are art.

A camera is also a tool for capturing an image. It does not involve the same set of skills as drawing, but it does involve a set of skills that take time to learn. And then there is another set of skills involving more tools to manipulate the image digitally, and yet another set of skills involving yet another set of skills to print.

Perhaps the most difficult set of skills for any of us to learn would be...human skills. Networking, self-promoting, finding and working with patrons, and generally avoiding upsetting the wrong people. Being good at this could be called an art too!


----------



## slclick (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I'm kicking myself for being goaded into responding, but your responses are so absurd I can't help myself. Sorry fellow forum-ites, it really will try after this.
> 
> So, you are saying that Jeff Wall, Cindy Sherman, Jerry Uelsmann (to use just three examples) are artists because they create their images, but Robert Frank and Ansel Adams would not be artists because they interpret an existing scene before their eyes. And where would Edward Weston fall then. Are his nudes art because he posed them, but his pepper isn't because he selected it?
> 
> You really need to quit while you are behind.


Does this mean in his his skewered view, my cyanotypes are art but my scanned E-6 slides are not?


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I'm kicking myself for being goaded into responding, but your responses are so absurd I can't help myself. Sorry fellow forum-ites, I really will try after this.
> 
> So, you are saying that Jeff Wall, Cindy Sherman, Jerry Uelsmann (to use just three examples) are artists because they create their images, but Robert Frank and Ansel Adams would not be artists because they interpret an existing scene before their eyes. And where would Edward Weston fall then. Are his nudes art because he posed them, but his pepper isn't because he selected it?
> 
> You really need to quit while you are behind.


Don't kick yourself! Any thread longer than 400 or so replies is due for a good hijacking!


----------



## Lenscracker (Jan 29, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> Is the person behind SonyAlphaRumors ghost-writing a CR post? This has got to be a contender for the biggest load of "wishful thinking rumor" I've ever read.
> 
> The more shocking thing is that half the commenters here aren't even questioning it. Did it not raise any eyebrows that the rumor has a bunch of insane specs, paired with something as silly and minor as "no touch bar"? Red flag!
> 
> Speaking of "red", ...you do realize that 8K RAW is usually reserved for $15-30K cameras, right?


I, for one, do not care what the video specs are because I do not use that. Canon can lie about those specs all they want.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Drawing, painting, sculpture, even composing, are not intrinsically artistic. They're _technical_ skills just like photography. Art is the part where _your_ creation or capture distinguishes itself from countless similar ones.



So, what makes art art is that someone thinks it's good or different? That makes no sense at all, especially in the light of this above:

"It doesn't matter if you call it art or not, it's not up to you or anyone else, it's art if the artist calls it art. "

Putting your comment and that one together means that anyone can call their own stuff "good" and therefore it's "art".

Here's a definition: "the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects "

My argument is simple - there is very little "creative imagination" involved in producing photographs - even ones other people would call "art" - compared to that which goes into creating real art, such as paintings, musical compositions, fictional plays, or sculptures. Photography is documentation, even when done really well in an aesthetically pleasing way.


----------



## londonxt (Jan 29, 2020)

I see Sony is getting desperate, trying to draw attention away from a 45Mpx 8K RF mount monster with accusations its just all a waste of time as it just wont create "art".... unlike the A7R IV in your hands


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Perhaps the most difficult set of skills for any of us to learn would be...human skills. Networking, self-promoting, finding and working with patrons, and generally avoiding upsetting the wrong people. Being good at this could be called an art too!



Perhaps. For me, that set of skills ("Networking, self-promoting, finding and working with patrons") is so excruciating that I actively try to avoid doing it.


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> We cannot know but the rumors are that later a big mpixel body wil arrive. However a 45mpixel with imrpoved sensor and so many fps looks very promising in replacing both 5DMkIV and 5DsR (but we do not know whether it will have AA filter or not).


Part of me still wonders if they'll come at the same time if it's two bodies - I would bet they'd use the same chassis like the 5DIII and 5DsR, so aligning their launches dates could make some sense. Or if the February announcement will include launch of the high resolution body and development announcement for the R5. From a timing perspective, July (plus or minus a month) has been common for 5D releases, while the 5Ds/sR was previously released in Feb. We've heard so may rumours about the high resolution body coming first and in Feb that I am still holding out hope! I guess we'll know soon


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

londonxt said:


> I see Sony is getting desperate, trying to draw attention away from a 45Mpx 8K RF mount monster with accusations its just all a waste of time as it just wont create "art".... unlike the A7R IV in your hands



Are you suggesting I work for Sony? I do renewable energy research at a national laboratory.


----------



## JohnC (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lee you have obviously put a lot of thought into this, so kudos for that effort.

I would point out a few things to you however:

1. Any particular scene is what it is, and I suppose for the casual snapshooter that points a camera at said scene and presses the shutter button could be viewed as non-artistic expression... BUT...

2. The tools of a photographer consist of lens choice (which goes a long way in deciding perspective), DOF choice, shutter speed choice, and last but not least the composition itself. Example being one guy snaps a shot of a waterfall and it is somewhat documentary. Another "photographer" studies the scene and decides where to place certain elements in that scene, how much attention to draw to that element through composition as well as lens choice, then may place further emphasis on that particular element through the choice of aperture or shutterspeed (in short, creativity with the tools at hand)... and THAT

3. Is the first place in which photography becomes an art, THEN

4. After the scene is captured, you get into post-processing. In days past what we consider post-processing now, was done in a dark room with dodging, burning, even composite images but using multiple exposures or multiple frames. More currently those steps are handled through tools like Lightroom and Photoshop. Regardless of the times, there is another element of art and creativity that happens in this step as well.

So while your particular view might be considered valid for some shots, I suspect the majority of the people you are conversing with here fall into the latter group or they wouldn't be on a site such as this. If you don't think using the principles of exposure, composition, perspective are tools of artistic expression then you are certainly welcome to your opinion but I think that view is significantly short-sighted.


----------



## heinzelmann (Jan 29, 2020)

What is still not clear to me is which two other mirrorless full frame cameras will be released.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

JohnC said:


> Lee you have obviously put a lot of thought into this, so kudos for that effort.
> 
> I would point out a few things to you however:
> 
> ...



I'm in the later group, and I don't consider what I do "art" because I didn't create what I'm shooting, only how I'm shooting it, just like the audio technician at a recording session isn't creating the music, only capturing it. Why isn't that occupation (which requires no less skill than that of a great photographer) accepted as "art"?

Maybe it's art when I'm shooting a model airplane I built, because I did create that scene.


----------



## mjg79 (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> Of course IBIS will be available on the new R bodies. This month I got RF24-70 2.8L IS and RF15-35 2.8L IS !



I know that feeling!

Well the RF 15-35L IS is superior to the Ef 16-35L III in virtually every regard so I wouldn't feel bad about that.

The Ef 24-70L was one of those freak lenses I think, nobody since has made a 24-70 quite as sharp. A bit like Nikon did with their 14-24, sometimes someone gets it just right. And the Ef 24-70 was one such lens. If Canon does start shipping cameras with IBIS it will really give a new lease of life to that lens as you can usually buy it at very good price now.


----------



## JohnC (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I'm in the later group, and I don't consider what I do "art" because I didn't create what I'm shooting, only how I'm shooting it, just like the audio technician at a recording session isn't creating the music, only capturing it. Why isn't that occupation (which requires no less skill than that of a great photographer) accepted as "art"?
> 
> Maybe it's art when I'm shooting a model airplane I built, because I did create that scene.




in that case however, you DID create the IMAGE using artistic tools (knowledge or equipment) that most often doesn't truly represent exactly the way it appeared in "real life"... so while you may not have created the flower, you did create the artistic expression of it that is represented in an image. Like I said though.. you certainly have the right to have whatever opinion suits you regardless of whether anyone else (or the majority) agree with you or not.


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> So, what makes art art is that someone thinks it's good or different? That makes no sense at all, especially in the light of this above:
> 
> "It doesn't matter if you call it art or not, it's not up to you or anyone else, it's art if the artist calls it art. "
> 
> ...


I've always leaned on a different definition of art - anything created by someone with the intent of evoking an emotion in the person experiencing it. The determination of whether or not it is good art or not is in its success in evoking that emotion in the recipient. Very broad definition no doubt, but I think it works. There's lots of art out there that doesn't do anything for me, but certainly I find that photography and photographs evoke a lot more emotion to me than other forms. To each their own I guess!


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

amorse said:


> I've always leaned on a different definition of art - anything created by someone with the intent of evoking an emotion in the person experiencing it.



That definition would make a video of murder or torture art.

I don't think so, but it would evoke an emotion.


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I'm in the later group, and I don't consider what I do "art" because I didn't create what I'm shooting, only how I'm shooting it, just like the audio technician at a recording session isn't creating the music, only capturing it. Why isn't that occupation (which requires no less skill than that of a great photographer) accepted as "art"?
> 
> Maybe it's art when I'm shooting a model airplane I built, because I did create that scene.


I think the audio technician is involved in creation of art. Certainly some recording artists have created whole songs or albums from ambient sounds and combining them to create some sort of interesting music. I would equate the recording technician for another artist as being no different than an assistant providing their skills to another artist for creation. Lots of artists use assistants in this way - I don't see that as being any different


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

amorse said:


> I would equate the recording technician for another artist as being no different than an assistant providing their skills to another artist for creation.



An audio technician is doing the same job a photographer is doing, just for audio instead of visual sources. So why are they an "assistant" to the artist while the photographer is the artist proper?

The composer creates the piece of music. That's art.
The musician performs that piece of music. That might be art ("performance art") or not, depending on whether or not they add their own embellishments, improvisations or other alterations to the piece. A MIDI device playing that piece wrote from the sheet music isn't an artist.
The technician recording the piece is just capturing what the composer and musician have produced. That job might (usually does) require substantial skill and the final output definitely depends heavily on the choices that technician makes, but that technician isn't widely accepted as an "artist" the way photographers (and composers and musicians) are. Why is that? I'll tell you why - because they didn't create the music, the same way the photographer didn't create the scene.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> That definition would make a video of murder or torture art.
> 
> I don't think so, but it would evoke an emotion.


Well, so would painting such a scene on canvas.


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> That definition would make a video of murder or torture art.
> 
> I don't think so, but it would evoke an emotion.


This got dark real fast.

As awful and unthinkable as it is, someone sick enough to create a video like that probably sees it as art, where the rest of the world will see it as the unthinkable act that it is and would not ever dream of trying to experience it for the evocation of emotion. In that case, yes it would evoke emotion, but the rightful repulsion of society to such acts would preclude it from being successfully experienced art. 

To be a bit less dark, lots of horror films are intended to outrage and provide no relief for the viewer - leaving them with feelings of sadness or frustration or anger.


----------



## PGSanta (Jan 29, 2020)

slclick said:


> His viewpoint is not dissimilar to the worldview on photography during it's onset. Artists and critics in the mid 1800's dismissed it in general and it wasn't until pictorialism style of photography in the late 1800's in which the masses started to accept it as an artform.


I’ve taken a class on the history of photography from the camera obscura to the modern age as well... none of us were speaking about the 1800s.


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> An audio technician is doing the same job a photographer is doing, just for audio instead of visual sources. So why are they an "assistant" to the artist while the photographer is the artist proper?
> 
> The composer creates the piece of music. That's art.
> The musician performs that piece of music. That might be art ("performance art") or not, depending on whether or not they add their own embellishments, improvisations or other alterations to the piece. A MIDI device playing that piece wrote from the sheet music isn't an artist.
> The technician recording the piece is just capturing what the composer and musician have produced. That job might (usually does) require substantial skill and the final output definitely depends heavily on the choices that technician makes, but that technician isn't widely accepted as an "artist" the way photographers (and composers and musicians) are. Why is that? I'll tell you why - because they didn't create the music, the same way the photographer didn't create the scene.


I disagree - the audio technician is instructed by the director/artist on what to capture and how it must be presented and the technician is tasked with getting it done - they're tasked with achieving someone else's creative vision. The photographer chooses what image to represent or what will evoke an emotional response. The photographer is the director, while the audio technician is being guided by the artist - the difference between the two is creative freedom. Now if the audio technician has full creative freedom, i.e. is choosing what they want to capture, putting that into a song or musical medium and presenting it for consumption, I'd call them the artist too.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Just because all art forms accepted (except photography) can start from nothing


They cannot.

As Carl Sagan said, “If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”



Lee Jay said:


> My argument is simple - there is very little "creative imagination" involved in producing photographs


It depends on who produces them, and for what.



Lee Jay said:


> - even ones other people would call "art" - compared to that which goes into creating real art, such as paintings, musical compositions, fictional plays, or sculptures.


There is very little "creative imagination" involved in most paintings, musical compositions, fictional plays, or sculptures. Especially paintings and sculptures.


----------



## PGSanta (Jan 29, 2020)

Dank13 said:


> so pretty much canon is going from the no-go camera for video to the holly grail if all video mirrorless cameras in one single update?
> 
> Some how i think this is a Santa's wish list to Canon other than the real specs of this camera....
> 
> ...



Canon is capable of doing this. Whether it makes sense to actually do is the question. Maybe they’re making enough of a margin and volume on lenses that they are willing to loss lead on bodies...

My gut is the specs are basically right, but the video will be 4K 30 at no crop, 1080 120. And it comes out at 3999.99.


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

Dank13 said:


> so pretty much canon is going from the no-go camera for video to the holly grail if all video mirrorless cameras in one single update?
> 
> Some how i think this is a Santa's wish list to Canon other than the real specs of this camera....
> 
> ...


To be fair, the 1DXiii already has 5.5k now, the 1Dxii had 4k60 in at least 2017, and last year Canon demonstrated 8K capture in a new camera, and Apple even used an 8K canon camera at their announcement last year for the Mac Pro. I think 8K is well within their capability, but I too question whether or not their first commercial application of 8K will be in a consumer targeted stills-oriented camera and not the cini line.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> I know that feeling!
> 
> Well the RF 15-35L IS is superior to the Ef 16-35L III in virtually every regard so I wouldn't feel bad about that.
> 
> The Ef 24-70L was one of those freak lenses I think, nobody since has made a 24-70 quite as sharp. A bit like Nikon did with their 14-24, sometimes someone gets it just right. And the Ef 24-70 was one such lens. If Canon does start shipping cameras with IBIS it will really give a new lease of life to that lens as you can usually buy it at very good price now.


I beg to differ a little as per the-digital-picture-site. 15-35 is virtually the same to 16-35 but for even worse vignetting! I haven't been able to use/test them yet.


----------



## Memdroid (Jan 29, 2020)

Dank13 said:


> Unless someone on Canon got sacked and a new managing guy took over it and change all Canon's ideas of what a great camera should have for specs, i'm 110% sure those specs won't happen in the next 4 years. They only started doing 4K on their cameras 1yr ago, do you have any idea how long its going to take for them to add 8K???? not to mention there isn't technology available to do that on a mirrorless camera yet.



Canon was the first to introduce 4k Recording on a DSLR, 8 years ago in 2012, on the 1Dc.


----------



## Architect1776 (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I'm in the later group, and I don't consider what I do "art" because I didn't create what I'm shooting, only how I'm shooting it, just like the audio technician at a recording session isn't creating the music, only capturing it. Why isn't that occupation (which requires no less skill than that of a great photographer) accepted as "art"?
> 
> Maybe it's art when I'm shooting a model airplane I built, because I did create that scene.



So painting or drawing anything already made is not art either. No less skill required there as the skill to make an incredible and moving photo. Or a race car driver just pushes the gas pedal like we all do every day, those in NYC and LA probably have more skill than the racer  , it is the people that made the car that created the "Art". If there is no financial value to recording music then that is perceived and your fault for choosing a profession given little perceived value as for example grade school teachers as well.


----------



## swkitt (Jan 29, 2020)

For me the big question is "will the AF tracking be as good as Sony's ? and will we have a human and animal setting for it ?"


----------



## Architect1776 (Jan 29, 2020)

Memdroid said:


> Canon was the first to introduce 4k Recording on a DSLR, 8 years ago in 2012, on the 1Dc.



PS do not let Sony/Nikon fanboys hear this, you will hurt their feelings.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Believe it or not: I shot many years cameras with only one single film loaded, no safety back-up film possible. Risky times back then, I hardly survived...



There is a difference between a single roll of 36 images and a single card with 10,000. Also, we call this _progress._


----------



## hmatthes (Jan 29, 2020)

Not mentioned, three things needed to have me switch my primary from Leica/SL (my backup is EOS R):
1. Joystick under my thumb
2. Dual cards
3. GPS (Im often away from cell access, thus killing phone GPS.
If so, I'm all over it!


----------



## slclick (Jan 29, 2020)

PGSanta said:


> I’ve taken a class on the history of photography from the camera obscura to the modern age as well... none of us were speaking about the 1800s.


analogous my friend


----------



## Gözler (Jan 29, 2020)

masterpix said:


> that is my assumption but the spec say specifically "*12fps mechanical, 20fps electronic* " both EVF and live mode are electronic.


Well I am still finding it too good to be true. Is this the clue that this is a joke? I mean mirror-less camera shooting in mechanical mode?


----------



## twoheadedboy (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not. I don't give a shit whether anyone else considers my photos art or not. 

That being said, there is no logical consistency in your position of considering a painter of a landscape and a photographer of a landscape two different things. You just said the painter's "interpretation" of a landscape is why it is art, bringing up doing it from their mind's eye in a studio - so if they sit on their porch and paint what they see, are they then not artists? 

How the picture gets there is a product of a camera and a lens, of course, but it's not that simple. Focal length, aperture, and exposure time play a significant role into how that scene is represented, as well as the photographer's framing and positioning. In Ansel's day, there was the processing and printing steps; now it's all done on a computer, but there is still the notion of "dodging and burning", etc. And even "painters" use computers, in the case of comic book illustrators and others, who are definitely artists by my definition (and seemingly yours).

The bottom line is you could send two people to the same spot at the same time with the same camera and lens and result in a physical output that looks totally different. You could also send the same camera file to two different people, who would do different things with it. Perhaps your point is that the photographer is less important than the finishing in terms of art, but if a photographer achieves what they intended in-camera, they shouldn't be "penalized" for that. 

Arguments aside, art is not defined by a dictionary. It's defined by the artist and their audience. Your argument is as wrong-headed to me as those who used to suggest that rap isn't music, but it doesn't matter what I think - people who pay for art, and museums and publishers who provide it, have already decided that you are wrong.


----------



## Alex784 (Jan 29, 2020)

xps said:


> Thanks. But hat problems with CPS, as Switzerland is not in the EU



Then, even better: you'd better buy it in Germany (it is a business expense) at 7299€=5912€+VAT and you'd get your 19% VAT back and lower your income tax a little bit. In your case, it is a tool; in my case, it is a toy.


----------



## photographer (Jan 29, 2020)

Is photography art or not? An endless debate that I will not engage in. Just this one link.









Photography: is it art?


From the earliest days of photography, practitioners took their inspiration from paintings. But as a new exhibition at London's National Gallery shows, the link went both ways




www.theguardian.com


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

Gözler said:


> Well I am still finding it too good to be true. Is this the clue that this is a joke? I mean mirror-less camera shooting in mechanical mode?


Mirrorless cameras still use a mechanical shutter, so there is still some fast-moving parts in there. An electronic shutter doesn't have the moving parts. The a9ii can only do 20 fps with electronic shutter, and drops down to 10 fps with a mechanical shutter. I wouldn't take this as a sign that it's a joke - this would be faster than then a9II in mechanical, and equivalent in electronic mode.


----------



## swkitt (Jan 29, 2020)

Gözler said:


> Well I am still finding it too good to be true. Is this the clue that this is a joke? I mean mirror-less camera shooting in mechanical mode?



Check Sony a9 specs, it's been doing that for years.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> That being said, there is no logical consistency in your position of considering a painter of a landscape and a photographer of a landscape two different things. You just said the painter's "interpretation" of a landscape is why it is art, bringing up doing it from their mind's eye in a studio - so if they sit on their porch and paint what they see, are they then not artists?



If they paint is exactly as they see, pixel-for-pixel (so-to-speak) then they aren't. If they change elements, change colors, change style, and so forth, then they are.



> How the picture gets there is a product of a camera and a lens, of course, but it's not that simple. Focal length, aperture, and exposure time play a significant role into how that scene is represented, as well as the photographer's framing and positioning.



It's still a cold, thoughtless, rote recording of what the camera is pointed at.



> The bottom line is you could send two people to the same spot at the same time with the same camera and lens and result in a physical output that looks totally different.



That they are different doesn't make either one of them art. Neither came from their mind, both came from nature.



> You could also send the same camera file to two different people, who would do different things with it. Perhaps your point is that the photographer is less important than the finishing in terms of art, but if a photographer achieves what they intended in-camera, they shouldn't be "penalized" for that.



I never said anything about "less important" or "penalized". Not being "art" isn't an insult. To me, it's a complement. "Art" isn't "above" craft, technique or skill, it's just different.



> Arguments aside, art is not defined by a dictionary. It's defined by the artist and their audience.



Then the word has no meaning.



> Your argument is as wrong-headed to me as those who used to suggest that rap isn't music



To quote one of my favorite songs (don't worry, you've never heard of it), "and now the oxymoron of all oxymorons, rap music!".


----------



## preppyak (Jan 29, 2020)

Either way, the outcome of this is gonna be funny:

a. CR guy just got trolled hard, in a way that's gonna hurt if the camera way under-delivers.

b. Even funnier, the company whose last mirrorless release included crop 4k, no 1080p24, and no DPAF in 4k; and who offers no 4k mode without crop or 4k60 mode on anything but a 1D line, is suddenly jumping right to 4k120 an possibly an 8k mode. Which would be a WILD turn in expectations

Hopefully we only have to wait a week or so to find out


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> ---They are - because of the interpretation. They are adding their own creativity to what is there.
> 
> I've seen many artists paint landscapes in a studio - landscapes they came up with entirely from their mind based on past experiences and their own imagination. That's art. Shooting a picture of a landscape, no matter how expertly done, isn't art to me, it's skill.
> ...


What are your thoughts on photos that receive substantial post production (i.e. color swapping, dodging/burning, warping, removal of distractions or chosen elements, etc.)? Does it then cease to be photography and become art or is it something else entirely? One could argue a photo that receives aggressive post production has similar creative choices that would be made by a landscape painter in this case, but certainly there are those that don't think of that as photography either.


----------



## mhbstudio (Jan 29, 2020)

*8K Video & 4K @ 120FPS?! | Canon EOS R5 Specs LEAKED*

*8K Video & 4K @ 120FPS?! | Canon EOS R5 Specs LEAKED*


----------



## twoheadedboy (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> It's still a cold, thoughtless, rote recording of what the camera is pointed at.



Maybe in how you take photos, but not most people. Using aperture to control background defocus, and slow shutter speeds to blur running water being 2 prominent examples used by nearly everyone. Behind perspective/framing, those are two of the most impactful decisions a photographic artist can make which changes the emotional impact of a particular scene.



> That they are different doesn't make either one of them art. Neither came from their mind, both came from nature.



I really have no clue where you came up with this definition. This isn't what the general public thinks. It isn't what artists, even painters and sculptors, think. It isn't what they teach in college. It doesn't inform art gallery purchasing decisions. This is like some idea you came up with drunk one day and have continued to hold on to (and fight about), like flat earthers.



> I never said anything about "less important" or "penalized". Not being "art" isn't an insult. To me, it's a complement. "Art" isn't "above" craft, technique or skill, it's just different.



Then why are you making such a big deal about it, here, in this thread, on this page? Your defense of the term is to attribute it with some sort of value or prestige beyond the other words listed.



> Then the word has no meaning.



It does. I already explained it in a previous reply.



> To quote one of my favorite songs (don't worry, you've never heard of it), "and now the oxymoron of all oxymorons, rap music!".



Color me surprised that you can't appreciate rap music. And that you have made assumptions about songs I know and don't, unless you are referring to something you wrote and recorded and never published.


----------



## neurorx (Jan 29, 2020)

Gözler said:


> Well I am still finding it too good to be true. Is this the clue that this is a joke? I mean mirror-less camera shooting in mechanical mode?


This is a spec better than the new Sony A9 II which has 10 fps mechanical and 20 fps electronic.....
Sony said it couldn't push their mp above 24 mp with their current tech. So if this camera specs are true it is a game changer. Hoping for good ISO, AF and dynamic range....

An official announcement cannot happen fast enough.....but waiting until July will be a very very long wait to purchase one.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

The point is if video supports 120fps at 4K it has to support at least 240fps at FHD although with the same transfer rates it has to support 480 at FHD. I do not believe it will...


----------



## Alex784 (Jan 29, 2020)

snoke said:


> Why? 1DX3 have many important pro features not in 5D/R5.



Sure, but since I'm not a pro (it's almost mostly for taking pictures of my cat  ), I guess I would sacrifice 4fps to have more MP (I usually zoom and crop), IBIS and RF mount. Actually, a Canon mirrorless equivalent of Nikon D850 (timelapse, macro focus shift, tilting screen etc) would be a perfect all-around camera for me .


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> Maybe in how you take photos, but not most people. Using aperture to control background defocus, and slow shutter speeds to blur running water being 2 prominent examples used by nearly everyone.



Including me.



> I really have no clue where you came up with this definition.











Definition of ART


skill acquired by experience, study, or observation; a branch of learning:; one of the humanities… See the full definition




www.merriam-webster.com





"the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects "

Key words, "creative" and "imagination". Also note the "and".



> This isn't what the general public thinks. It isn't what artists, even painters and sculptors, think. It isn't what they teach in college. It doesn't inform art gallery purchasing decisions. This is like some idea you came up with drunk one day and have continued to hold on to (and fight about), like flat earthers.



I've never been drunk and I just showed it to you from the dictionary.

Wiki has something similar:

*"Art* is a diverse range of human activities in creating visual, auditory or performing artifacts (artworks), expressing the author's imaginative, conceptual ideas, or technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power. "

Key words, "imaginative" and "conceptual". The only thing I disagree with there is the word "or", which is "and" in the dictionary.



> that you have made assumptions about songs I know and don't, unless you are referring to something you wrote and recorded and never published.



You're right, it's an assumption. Were you inside the Marin Center near San Francisco in April of 2000, which is the only time that song was performed?


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 29, 2020)

Gözler said:


> Well I am still finding it too good to be true. Is this the clue that this is a joke? I mean mirror-less camera shooting in mechanical mode?



Mirrorless cameras still use mechanical shutters. 12 fps would be mechanical shutter (no or minimum rolling shutter effect; reduced flicker effects) and 20 fps would be electronic 'shutter' with the mechanical locked open (rolling shutter effects and more prone to flicker).


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

Is this the one camera that is to be announced soon or very soon?

Because this forum statistically gets very accurate when very close to announcement.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Mirrorless cameras still use mechanical shutters. 12 fps would be mechanical shutter (no or minimum rolling shutter effect; reduced flicker effects) and 20 fps would be electronic 'shutter' with the mechanical locked open (rolling shutter effects and more prone to flicker).


And many times banding (not the one that used to exist in the shadows! A very obvious one even in well lit photos!) I assume it depends on artificial lighting.


----------



## Kjsheldo (Jan 29, 2020)

Instant buy if this is true.

Though, I really hope they can figure out how to make their shutter sound more like a Panasonic S1 or Fuji XT3 or X-H1. The EOS R shutter is often too loud for documentary work or street photography (and I'm sure for weddings, which I don't shoot).


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

neurorx said:


> This is a spec better than the new Sony A9 II which has 10 fps mechanical and 20 fps electronic.....
> Sony said it couldn't push their mp above 24 mp with their current tech. So if this camera specs are true it is a game changer. Hoping for good ISO, AF and dynamic range....



I would not expect this camera's electronic shutter to be on par with the A9II. That camera has almost global shutter-like performance, stumbling only under some specific LED lighting conditions. Once you get into the specifics of electronic shutters, it's not always apples to apples. That sensor also doesn't have the DR as the A7 series. So, I'd expect some skew/rolling shutter issues with this camera, though with the specs being tossed around I'd hope for better performance than the 1DX3.


----------



## amorse (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> ..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Merriam-Webster defines photography as art:

"the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface (such as film or an optical sensor)"








Definition of PHOTOGRAPHY


the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface (such as film or an optical sensor)… See the full definition




www.merriam-webster.com


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 29, 2020)

If these specs are true then this camera has certainly caught my eye. I've been waiting to see Canon's rumored 83mp R model. But if they use a weaker AA filter in the R5 like in the 5Ds and 1DX3 then 45mp is high resolution in its own right. I would still like to see that rumored 83mp sensor but I wouldn't have any complaints about 45mp.

The video specs seem too good to be true. In the Sony line the A73 produces better footage than the A7r3 and A7r4 because the former is 6k-to-4k oversampled while the latter use either binning or line skipping. I wonder if Canon has found an algorithm or chip design that lets them produced oversampled like footage from a >6k resolution sensor? If they did...if the R5 is full width 4k with DPAF...then this is going to be a killer camera in the video market. It will also be a wedding photographer's dream camera.

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I sincerely hope Canon releases a 5D mark V with the same specs but a DSLR body. If it exists I would also love to see their 83mp sensor in both an R and DSLR body. I'm sorry, but I still prefer OVF, DSLR form/handling with big lenses, and DSLR battery life. If they shipped both mirrorless and DSLR versions of the R5 (or an 83mp R5s) I could absolutely see myself owning one of each.

Come on Canon...one more generation of DSLRs. For some of us EVFs just aren't quite there yet.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

amorse said:


> Merriam-Webster defines photography as art:
> 
> "the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface (such as film or an optical sensor)"
> 
> ...



If we've reached the point in the conversation where we're dragging out the dictionary, I think we can _agree to disagree _and get back to what's important:

Speculating about card slots.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Gözler said:


> Well I am still finding it too good to be true. Is this the clue that this is a joke? I mean mirror-less camera shooting in mechanical mode?


There is no "mechanical mode". There just is not a mirror, and then the addition of an EVF.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

amorse said:


> Merriam-Webster defines photography as art:



I know, but as I keep saying, it's inconsistent with all the other things defined as art (most of which I accept as art).


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> It's not. I don't give a shit whether anyone else considers my photos art or not.
> 
> That being said, there is no logical consistency in your position of considering a painter of a landscape and a photographer of a landscape two different things. You just said the painter's "interpretation" of a landscape is why it is art, bringing up doing it from their mind's eye in a studio - so if they sit on their porch and paint what they see, are they then not artists?
> 
> ...


In fairness, he has specifically said that to him, it is not art. There is no right or wrong. While people, museums, and publishers determine what is art "for themselves" it is also the viewer's opinion of what art is to "himself". Not all people see the same things as art regardless of what it costs or who puts it out there... sort of like my thought that there is nothing special about a Picasso or Warhol. Not all painting is art. Same holds for photography. Same for artisan made butter or olive oil.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> There is no "mechanical mode". There just is not a mirror, and then the addition of an EVF.



Well, then there's an "electronic shutter" mode, and a "not electronic shutter" mode.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Well, then there's an "electronic shutter" mode, and a "not electronic shutter" mode.


Touche!


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> The point is if video supports 120fps at 4K it has to support at least 240fps at FHD although with the same transfer rates it has to support 480 at FHD. I do not believe it will...



The processing power and heat will be the main issue. If it's compressed at H.264, a decent 8K image would be around 400-600 mbps, which isn't far from the bit rate of 4K Motion JPEG that Canon used to use. A compressed 10 bit H.265 would likely run around 800 mbps, which is around the rate for 1080 RAW with Magic Lantern on the 5D Mark III.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> The point is if video supports 120fps at 4K it has to support at least 240fps at FHD although with the same transfer rates it has to support 480 at FHD. I do not believe it will...


Eh not so sure about that. You still have to have a buffer and cpu that can code that many individual frames per second regardless. Think in terms of moving files on a computer. What is faster? 100GB of 1 file? Or 100GB of 100 files. Same cpu and buffer and amount of data. Takes longer to move the 100 files still. Would assume this would be just as applicable inside a camera writing individual video frames. Again we are also assuming all these specs are internal recording. Some of these higher frame rates like 4k120 may well be capable but only via external recording. We’ve seen that several times over the years from Panasonic and Sony and even Fuji I think


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

I just thought more interesting to be able to take some slow motion FHD videos. But 120 (100 in PAL) would be enough I suppose.


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

Alex784 said:


> Then, even better: you'd better buy it in Germany (it is a business expense) at 7299€=5912€+VAT and you'd get your 19% VAT back and lower your income tax a little bit. In your case, it is a tool; in my case, it is a toy.


Would be GREAT, but not possible, as I´m retired. No tax inspector would believe that an >80 years old man needs photographic equipment for his business


----------



## twoheadedboy (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Definition of ART
> 
> 
> skill acquired by experience, study, or observation; a branch of learning:; one of the humanities… See the full definition
> ...



So the actual problem is not your definition of art, but your definition of "creative" in terms of art. Ok.

Creative, same dictionary: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/creative

"marked by the ability or power to create *: *given to creating"

Well ok, that's not helpful yet. But it links to the definition for "create": https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/create

"1. to bring into existence"

Photographers do that! The scene may or may not be created, but the photograph is! Regardless if it's just a file, or a print, or metallic, or whatever. The photograph, like a painting or sculpture, is "brought into existence". This is irrelevant to the scene being represented, which was the condition you stipulated earlier. Or in short, it's like grammatical sentence structure - art is the "object", the medium upon which the subject is represented. Either can be anything, because it is defined by the artist and their audience.

2 and 3 are not relevant.

"4a to produce through imaginative skill"

Imaginative skill - that's artistic photography! 

If I do nothing but open the box, charge the battery, attach the lens, turn it on, point indiscriminately, and press the button, that is probably not an artistic statement. Even photojournalism is purposeful, and at times results in artistic results. Art can be accidental (in other words, something creatively accomplished which lacks a skill component - more on this in a second). However, I will ignore that for the sake of this discussion.

But artistic photography DOES involve "imaginative skill". In the case of a landscape, a photographic artist must have a mind's eye view of the end result they want to produce, which may or may not be targeting an exact reproduction - that's the IMAGINATION - and then they must have the SKILL to set the camera appropriately, and treat the resulting file (or film) accordingly to achieve that imagined result. You have been suggesting photography is not "art" because it's a "skill" when your own definition of "art" includes "skill" right in it! There is certainly photography which is definitively not art; for example test charts for the purpose of measurement, or photographing scientific specimens for the purpose of education. But there is also photography done for the purpose of artistic expression, and I'm sorry you've yet to witness any in your time because it can be truly breathtaking; as much as any painting or sculpture you've ever seen.


----------



## twoheadedboy (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> In fairness, he has specifically said that to him, it is not art. There is no right or wrong. While people, museums, and publishers determine what is art "for themselves" it is also the viewer's opinion of what art is to "himself". Not all people see the same things as art regardless of what it costs or who puts it out there... sort of like my thought that there is nothing special about a Picasso or Warhol. Not all painting is art. Same holds for photography. Same for artisan made butter or olive oil.



That's fine, but he's here telling OTHER people "photography is not art". So it's not fair to allow him his opinion when he is chastising others for holding one counter to his world view.


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Mirrorless cameras still use mechanical shutters. 12 fps would be mechanical shutter (no or minimum rolling shutter effect; reduced flicker effects) and 20 fps would be electronic 'shutter' with the mechanical locked open (rolling shutter effects and more prone to flicker).


True, and I´m happy that this mechanical shutter exists. Electronic shutter creats heavy rolling shutter patterns on the Sony A7RIV. And this is not only visible in planes or cars, but in fast flying birds too....


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jan 29, 2020)

Cue the "but my 2 yr old smartphone can do 720p960!" crowd.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> That's fine, but he's here telling OTHER people "photography is not art". So it's not fair to allow him his opinion when he is chastising others for holding one counter to his world view.


I never took it that way. He has said, "to me" and "at least not to me" a few times now. The only chastising I see is from those who disagree with him.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jan 29, 2020)

Ok, who's the forum admin that merged 2 different topics into this thread?


----------



## docsmith (Jan 29, 2020)

I think I may need to stop following this website.

I do find several of the threads fun and like to keep up with the latest in gear.

But, lately, I found myself wanting a 1DX III. As of today, I may have changed that to wanting two R5s (a potential "forever" camera for me).

All that, and I am completely happy with my 5DIV.....My only real "want" was a few more fps.


----------



## slclick (Jan 29, 2020)

docsmith said:


> I think I may need to stop following this website.


Well at least it's not because of all the Canon vs Nikon arguing.


----------



## mpb001 (Jan 29, 2020)

Everyone knew that Canon was quietly plotting to take over the world (cameras...). Now it appears to be unfolding...


----------



## sanj (Jan 29, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Photography itself isn't art. Processing, using and exposing it to the public makes it art.


No. Unless it is art.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> So the actual problem is not your definition of art, but your definition of "creative" in terms of art. Ok.



I have no problem.



> But artistic photography DOES involve "imaginative skill".



If it existed, it would.



> In the case of a landscape, a photographic artist must have a mind's eye view of the end result they want to produce



Replace "must" with "may" and that sentence could be okay.



> , which may or may not be targeting an exact reproduction



The camera is targeting an exact reproduction. In fact, we all argue about the accuracy of this reproduction at length - noise, DR and color from sensors, geometric distortion, spherical aberration, chromatic aberration and field flatness (etc.) from lenses.



> - that's the IMAGINATION



The scene is not imagined. It exists. The way it's reproduced (NOT created) by the camera and photographer doesn't change that.



> - and then they must have the SKILL to set the camera appropriately, and treat the resulting file (or film) accordingly to achieve that imagined result.



That "imagined result" doesn't really exists, for the most part. You don't imagine a scene, and then go out and find that exact scene and photograph it. You start with a scene and imagine how you're going to record it. But it's already there.



> You have been suggesting photography is not "art" because it's a "skill" when your own definition of "art" includes "skill" right in it!



No it doesn't.



> There is certainly photography which is definitively not art; for example test charts for the purpose of measurement, or photographing scientific specimens for the purpose of education. But there is also photography done for the purpose of artistic expression, and I'm sorry you've yet to witness any in your time because it can be truly breathtaking;



I've seen a lot of it that is supposedly in that area, and some of it is quite good (most isn't), but that doesn't make it art.

It's just a categorization. Everything that is listed as an "art" in most lists involves creating the "thing" that's produced or reproduced in your head - except photography. To me, that's an indication there's something wrong with the categorization.

It's like Pluto. When it was discovered that it not only is completely unlike every other planet (because of its size, orbital eccentricity, orbital plane and the fact that it crosses Neptune's orbit) but also that's it's much more like thousands of other small bodies, its categorization was changed from "planet" to "member of the Kuiper Belt", subset "Dwarf Planet" because it's large enough to be in hydrostatic equilibrium (it's big enough that gravity pulled it into a near-spherical shape). That's all I'm saying here - Photography is unlike any of the other listed arts, therefore it has been mis-categorized. I'm not dissing it - it's my second (of seven) most active hobbies.


----------



## slclick (Jan 29, 2020)

New Rumor: Canon EOS R6


It appears as if Canon is going to put a 5 and 6 series camera bodies out for the EOS RF mount to mimic what they have on the EF mount. It really does speak to the fact hat the EOS R and RP were possibly simply stopgaps until Canon got everything moving in the same direction for mirrorless...



www.canonnews.com





Check out Stephanie's comment


----------



## NorskHest (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> It was also a LOT more expensive, so not apples to apples.


Actually it is apples to apple since it’s a 1dxmki sensor with better signal noise and dynamic range


----------



## Alangeli (Jan 29, 2020)

Any information about low pass filter and BSI technology?


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

docsmith said:


> I think I may need to stop following this website.
> 
> I do find several of the threads fun and like to keep up with the latest in gear.
> 
> ...


As long as this does not happen GAS is partially controllable:








Because sometimes my GAS is worse, especially with the 1DxIII AND R5! To my defence I never had a 1D series (and the film 1n cameras I had were bought used cheaply).


----------



## BroncosFan (Jan 29, 2020)

J.NicDavidson said:


> Take my money now please!


Oh don’t worry....they will!


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

slclick said:


> New Rumor: Canon EOS R6
> 
> 
> It appears as if Canon is going to put a 5 and 6 series camera bodies out for the EOS RF mount to mimic what they have on the EF mount. It really does speak to the fact hat the EOS R and RP were possibly simply stopgaps until Canon got everything moving in the same direction for mirrorless...
> ...


Not necessarily correct especially if we are talking about different resolution sensors for the new cameras.


----------



## Alex784 (Jan 29, 2020)

xps said:


> Would be GREAT, but not possible, as I´m retired. No tax inspector would believe that an >80 years old man needs photographic equipment for his business


It is up to you, but if you are no longer a pro, then you should no longer care about CPS membership anymore: "The CPS program is available to full-time and part-time imaging professionals who meet the membership level requirements of equipment ownership and business status. "

If I were you (I no longer live in the EU), I would definitely spend ~100€ to fly to Zürich on or just after Feb 13th and would get my VAT refund, because it is Schengen Area but outside of the EU... https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...with-bonuses-and-a-giveaway.38050/post-810802


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

Alex784 said:


> It is up to you, but if you are no longer a pro, then you should no longer care about CPS membership anymore: "The CPS program is available to full-time and part-time imaging professionals who meet the membership level requirements of equipment ownership and business status. "
> 
> If I were you (I no longer live in the EU), I would definitely spend ~100€ to fly to Zürich on or just after Feb 13th and would get my VAT refund, because it is Schengen Area but outside of the EU... https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...with-bonuses-and-a-giveaway.38050/post-810802


The European CPS program is different. You don't have to be a pro only to register products, get points and get a free membership at a level depending on the number of points collected.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 29, 2020)

Sony fanboys are just about breathless over on DPR.
Put those Alpha’s back in the toy box because it’s 2020 and Canon is about to drop the mic.
It is totally gonna suck if this rumor turns out to be bogus.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Sony fanboys are just about breathless over on DPR.
> Put those Alpha’s back in the toy box because it’s 2020 and Canon is about to drop the mic.
> It is totally gonna suck if this rumor turns out to be bogus.


If R5's announcement is close (about 2.5 weeks away) I will chose to believe it's rumor since in these cases this site has proven correct many times in the past.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Actually it is apples to apple since it’s a 1dxmki sensor with better signal noise and dynamic range


You are missing the point of the $. The 1dxmk1 sensor was an analog sensor with external ADC, so the dynamic range is largely controlled by how clean the environment is and how good the ADC is. Really high dynamic range ADCs are quite pricey and the shielding to keep the environment clean is also a fussy and expensive process. All the analog canon sensors are much better in DR terms than the delivered result for exactly those reasons. How good the sensors themselves are is demonstrated by the fact that they were class leading at high ISOs. Affordable ADCs just couldn't keep up.


----------



## Alex784 (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> The European CPS program is different. You don't have to be a pro only to register products, get points and get a free membership at a level depending on the number of points collected.



Thank you for this clarification, I appreciate it. Indeed, CPS is free in EMEA. So I've just created my profile and saw that it seems to be possible to register gear bought abroad. Since I had no problem to register my gear purchased in Canada, there shouldn't be any problem for a German customer to register his gear bought in Switzerland and to have the associated benefits:


----------



## NorskHest (Jan 29, 2020)

snoke said:


> 5D5 always more expensive than R5.
> 
> If R5 + EF-RF less than 5D5, why buy 5D5?
> 
> No new EF lens. Canon want all EF to buy new RF. Need carrot.


Canon is still making EF lenses. Just because they are not developing new ones doesn’t mean production has stopped. The rf mount has made the ef even better because of the adaptors. There is nothing wrong with ef, it might not be as clinical as the rf but they are sharp, they have character and I think many people will take character still over clinical.


----------



## AccipiterQ (Jan 29, 2020)

slclick said:


> New Rumor: Canon EOS R6
> 
> 
> It appears as if Canon is going to put a 5 and 6 series camera bodies out for the EOS RF mount to mimic what they have on the EF mount. It really does speak to the fact hat the EOS R and RP were possibly simply stopgaps until Canon got everything moving in the same direction for mirrorless...
> ...



I think she's a pro-troll. She comments on a few sites with some of the bizarrest, off-base, rambling commentary I've seen on a forum.


----------



## Dragon (Jan 29, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Sony fanboys are just about breathless over on DPR.
> Put those Alpha’s back in the toy box because it’s 2020 and Canon is about to drop the mic.
> It is totally gonna suck if this rumor turns out to be bogus.


A lot of folks have been cross checking and the rumor looks pretty much on point, but you are right about the DPR comment section. That crowd just can't believe Canon would make something like this at any price and if they did, it must cost at least $5k. I am thinking it will come in around $3500 and they are going to wet themselves. I also think it will come much sooner than July, given how short the delivery is on the 1DXIII compared to historical 1D delivery times. Canon has been stalling the last few years to get a bunch of stuff in order, both in R&D and fab. I think that stall period has now ended and we will be seeing repeated shock and awe attacks. The first clue was the VERY positive review DPR gave the 1DXIII (although the DPR fan base is still choking on that review).


----------



## drama (Jan 29, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> I think she's a pro-troll. She comments on a few sites with some of the bizarrest, off-base, rambling commentary I've seen on a forum.



"Steffanie" doesn't seem to be well. None of that made a goddamn lick of sense.


----------



## Trey T (Jan 29, 2020)

The R5 will likely have 12fps @ crop (18mp) and 6fps @ FF (45mp). Better fps and AF than 7Dii, but with 7D's resolution.
The R6 is rumored to have 12fps @ FF (20mp)


----------



## richperson (Jan 29, 2020)

Trey T said:


> The R5 will likely have 12fps @ crop (18mp) and 6fps @ FF (45mp). Better fps and AF than 7Dii, but with 7D's resolution.
> The R6 is rumored to have 12fps @ FF (20mp)



We have never seen cropped fps in a 5D before, why would they start now? Remember how big the bugger on the 1DXiii is. More likely that the R5 gets a smaller buffer--12fps mechanical shutter for about 100 shots before buffer max--than it would be they would slow down the fps.


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I know, but as I keep saying, it's inconsistent with all the other things defined as art (most of which I accept as art).



Just.... AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH

Photograpy is a damn art. Full stop. Stop tilting at windmills.


----------



## Act444 (Jan 29, 2020)

I’ll believe the R5 (or 5R) when I see it.

If (or when, most likely) Canon puts out that high-res R body, will it have an AA filter? The 5DSR could remain unique if they do. (And a reason for many owners to continue to hang onto theirs).


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

Trey T said:


> The R5 will likely have 12fps @ crop (18mp) and 6fps @ FF (45mp). Better fps and AF than 7Dii, but with 7D's resolution.
> The R6 is rumored to have 12fps @ FF (20mp)



That would be a regression in FF performance from the 5D4 (30x8), which I think is unlikely.


----------



## richperson (Jan 29, 2020)

Didn't the 5DIV get announced about the same gap after the 1DXii as this one is from the 1DXiii? Timing seems consistent.


----------



## Laslen (Jan 29, 2020)

*Canon Rumors:* Insane R5 specs

*CR commenters:* _Is photography art?_


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

Laslen said:


> *Canon Rumors:* Insane R5 specs
> 
> *CR commenters:* _Is photography art?_


With the new R5 spec sheet there isn't anything left to worry about.


----------



## NorskHest (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> You are missing the point of the $. The 1dxmk1 sensor was an analog sensor with external ADC, so the dynamic range is largely controlled by how clean the environment is and how good the ADC is. Really high dynamic range ADCs are quite pricey and the shielding to keep the environment clean is also a fussy and expensive process. All the analog canon sensors are much better in DR terms than the delivered result for exactly those reasons. How good the sensors themselves are is demonstrated by the fact that they were class leading at high ISOs. Affordable ADCs just couldn't keep up.


Am I missing the point or are you going way to into the semantics, the 1dx and 1dc are identical in the tech from what I have read, canon added an insane price to milk and rob their base. You don’t need to play gotcha with semantics that don’t matter. There have been plenty of tests to show that the 1dxmki and 1dc have a better high iso than the 1dxmkii. Let google be your guide


----------



## VICYASA (Jan 29, 2020)

J.NicDavidson said:


> Take my money now please!


And that money will be at least $3,999 USD, right? What's the estimate damage? Or, potential? Lets hear it!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> And the smaller the photosite, the lower the read noise.



By definition, the pixels DR is well capacity divided by noise. Smaller pixels have smaller noise but also lower signal. 



Lee Jay said:


> That article can be safely ignored because it's full of wrong information.



I don't think so. This guy is fully qualified to write such an article https://clarkvision.com/rnc/index.html





Lee Jay said:


> Ask yourself this question. How can a Powershot S120, with teeny tiny pixels, have 11.7 stops of DR:
> 
> Sensorgen.info data for Canon PowerShot-S120
> and the 1Dx with huge pixels have 11.2 stops:
> ...



First, you quoted webarchive of an unknown (deceased?) source with a very strange data where read noise significantly drops with ISO which doesn't make any sense.

Second, I never said pixel size was a 'major' factor. Well capacity is, and it depends on the size. You can try and increase well capacity in a smaller pixel by improving quantum efficiency and/or reducing the noise. 
Given two sensors with different resolution but of the same generation from Canon, we can expect the pixel size to be one of the factors.


----------



## Ricardo_fon (Jan 29, 2020)

Gözler said:


> Well I am still finding it too good to be true. Is this the clue that this is a joke? I mean mirror-less camera shooting in mechanical mode?


It's a mechanical shutter. Mirrorless isn't shutterless.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 29, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> By definition, the pixels DR is well capacity divided by noise. Smaller pixels have smaller noise but also lower signal.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so. This guy is fully qualified to write such an article https://clarkvision.com/rnc/index.html



Then why is he wrong so often?



> First, you quoted webarchive of an unknown (deceased?) source with a very strange data where read noise significantly drops with ISO which doesn't make any sense.



The data is calculated from the nonsensical way DxO presents the data they collect. He provided his script for turning DxO data into this data (QE, read noise and so on).

The entire point of raising ISO is to decrease read noise.



> Second, I never said pixel size was a 'major' factor. Well capacity is, and it depends on the size.



You just contradicted yourself.



> You can try and increase well capacity in a smaller pixel by improving quantum efficiency and/or reducing the noise.
> Given two sensors with different resolution but of the same generation from Canon, we can expect the pixel size to be one of the factors.



Shouldn't be, since read noise drops with well capacity, keeping DR constant when you change pixel size. That's why pixels that are 1/20th the size of other pixels can still have the same DR. If pixel size was a key driving factor, reducing pixel size by a factor of 20 would change DR, no matter what. It doesn't.


----------



## cellomaster27 (Jan 29, 2020)

sanj said:


> I have learned the art of 'wait and watch' around 3 years ago when I stupidly predicted that DSLR is dead. So I would not 'HAHAHAHHAHA' too soon.



Ever since... I think when the 5D3 came out, everything was so incremental in specs and updates.. I just can't see this "R5" being anything revolutionary. If canon blows my speculations out of the water and everyone else's - GREAT! But I just can't help it.. this is just insane if Canon does in fact, come out with such an insane update to the current lineup. Make Canon great again?


----------



## Deleted member 68328 (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Because there is no option to switch the GPS option off in menu? Got it!


Because it's very useful to implement GPS in a camera just to turn it off in menu? Got it! 
Try to outsmart your latest message if you care about answering.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

cellomaster27 said:


> Ever since... I think when the 5D3 came out, everything was so incremental in specs and updates.. I just can't see this "R5" being anything revolutionary. If canon blows my speculations out of the water and everyone else's - GREAT! But I just can't help it.. this is just insane if Canon does in fact, come out with such an insane update to the current lineup. Make Canon great again?


It wasn't exactly incremental. Yes resolution and fps were BUT it took the top AF system and a 2nd card (albeit with a slow controller).


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

yoms said:


> Because it's very useful to implement GPS in a camera just to turn it off in menu? Got it!
> Try to outsmart your latest message if you care about answering.


Since I do not believe that 2 devices can connect via Bluetooth to a phone simultaneously and even so Canon camera connect connects to one camera every time we would need two phones if we carried 2 EOS R cameras. Instead 7DII and 5D4 have one. I bought the separate GPS Canon device for my 5DsR. It is very simple, very flexible and works just fine. But I wouldn't want to pay a second one. Anyway this is a minor detail. We will not hold it against Canon if EVERY other aspect is as reported here


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Photography is a means of documentation that can, if desired, be done in an aesthetically pleasing way.


You provided a definition of a “snapshot” Just now. Are you a passport photo photographer by any chance? As in: “remove Your spectacles, do not smile and look straight into the camera” type of photography?


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> Just.... AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH
> 
> Photograpy is a damn art. Full stop. Stop tilting at windmills.


My god is this still going!


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jan 29, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> There is a difference between a single roll of 36 images and a single card with 10,000. Also, we call this _progress._


Yes but how many of those 10.000 images are worth keeping? I am talking here about _photography_, not excessive snapshooting. Also, who really collects up to 10.000 images on one card w/o saving data in the meantime? If if I shoot wildlife, I get up to 2000 images per day, that's already a lot.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

yoms said:


> Because it's very useful to implement GPS in a camera just to turn it off in menu? Got it!
> Try to outsmart your latest message if you care about answering.


Let me outsmart my own message for you:
I use GPS for travel photography when I take thousands of photos over two weeks period in various locations. A GPS tag allows me to appropriately sort messages and provide relevant description, classify sets of photos and be able to track what when and where was photographed. 
I do not use GPS for events where I typically take thousands of photos in a single location. 

I hope it makes at least some sense to you now.


----------



## Grimbald (Jan 29, 2020)

cellomaster27 said:


> Ever since... I think when the 5D3 came out, everything was so incremental in specs and updates.. I just can't see this "R5" being anything revolutionary. If canon blows my speculations out of the water and everyone else's - GREAT! But I just can't help it.. this is just insane if Canon does in fact, come out with such an insane update to the current lineup. Make Canon great again?




Keep in mind: Canon wants people to switch to their new R mount: New glass to sell, new bodies, new accessories and so on. It does not seem unrealistic for them to give people a very good reason to switch, as they are doing it with their glass already. In the end, it's just a strategic move to generate more profit and bind consumers to their product line.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jan 29, 2020)

Bahrd said:


> Anyway, an internal SSD (or something like that) - instead of a second card slot - wouldn't be a bad thing.


I agree, but an SSD would


SecureGSM said:


> Risking some 30-ish photos at a time. Not thousands Shots at a time Right?


Yes, 10 keepers out of 36 images vs. 10 keepers out of 10.000


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Canon has been stalling the last few years to get a bunch of stuff in order, both in R&D and fab. I think that stall period has now ended and we will be seeing repeated shock and awe attacks. The first clue was the VERY positive review DPR gave the 1DXIII (although the DPR fan base is still choking on that review).


I think this is right. They've taken longer than others to get to this stage, but that seems to have coincided with a lot of R&D in the background. I take it they now have IBIS (including integration with in-lens IS) to their satisfaction. And out comes a whole flurry of bodies. Very exciting!

The DPR article had about 600 comments when I looked earlier (I haven't gone into it …)!


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Yes but how many of those 10.000 images are worth keeping? I am talking here about _photography_, not excessive snapshooting. Also, who really collects up to 10.000 images on one card w/o saving data in the meantime? If if I shoot wildlife, I get up to 2000 images per day, that's already a lot.



Can I provide a hopefully relevant use case here:
I spent 2 weeks traveling in Bali, remote areas taking portraits of Balinese people in their native environment. Not a small project. 800+ portraits taken in 10 days. Now. I ended up with around 2000 frames on my card. The time, effort and Amount of money That I invested in this project is quite substantial. 
A card failure in this instance would be a catastrophic event for me. Hence I shoot to both card simultaneously. It does not cost me a thing but provides so much needed redundancy. 
I hope it explains.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> I agree, but an SSD would
> 
> Yes, 10 keepers out of 36 images vs. 10 keepers out of 10.000


Yeah. The ratio of keepers would be correct. 800 keepers out of 2000 frame in my case.


----------



## Deleted member 68328 (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Let me outsmart my own message for you:
> I use GPS for travel photography when I take thousands of photos over two weeks period in various locations. A GPS tag allows me to appropriately sort messages and provide relevant description, classify sets of photos and be able to track what when and where was photographed.
> I do not use GPS for events where I typically take thousands of photos in a single location.
> 
> I hope it makes at least some sense to you now.


I use GPS the exact same way. So I quite understand the use case, but your latest answer does not explain the previous one. Whatever... Not interested.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Yeah. The ratio of keepers would be correct. 800 keepers out of 2000 frame in my case.


Great photos! Must have been a fantastic trip to take.


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Can I provide a hopefully relevant use case here:
> I spent 2 weeks traveling in Bali, remote areas taking portraits of Balinese people in their native environment. Not a small project. 800+ portraits taken in 10 days. Now. I ended up with around 2000 frames on my card. The time, effort and Amount of money That I invested in this project is quite substantial.
> A card failure in this instance would be a catastrophic event for me. Hence I shoot to both card simultaneously. It does not cost me a thing but provides so much needed redundancy.
> I hope it explains.



In all honesty, people that try to say "you don't need two card slots...!" aren't going to listen. They never have, even when people clearly, patiently and like you, politely explain good reasoning why it's an important feature.

Just because *someone* doesnt want a feature does not for one second mean that when someone does, their reasoning is not valid when there is strong evidence and reasoning to back it. Like for instance I dotn want GPS, but because you have explained clearly why it's a good feature, I would not try to argue against it.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 29, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Great photos! Must have been a fantastic trip to take.


Thank you. Yes, an absolutely fantastic trip. I will share more photos with forum when relevant. 

I have got quite few in my FB, raising awareness of unfortunate Life realities of native Balinese People working hard 7 days a week with. I holiday all their life for some USD $4 a day.


----------



## dslrdummy (Jan 29, 2020)

If it's being announced in a couple of weeks, hopefully it will ship by May (photographic trip to Bandhavgarh, India planned). Here's hoping.


----------



## dsut4392 (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> The camera is targeting an exact reproduction. In fact, we all argue about the accuracy of this reproduction at length - noise, DR and color from sensors, geometric distortion, spherical aberration, chromatic aberration and field flatness (etc.) from lenses.
> ...
> 
> The scene is not imagined. It exists. The way it's reproduced (NOT created) by the camera and photographer doesn't change that.



Is that so? So if I deliberately choose a large aperture to decrease depth of field, or shoot a waterfall at ISO100 with an ND10 filter fitted, or take a head & shoulders portrait of someone at 200mm with the moon in the corner of the frame then the camera has targeted an 'exact reproduction' of a scene that is not imagined but really exists? I'm not saying any of those cliches are 'art', but if backgrounds actually AREN'T soft and fluffy, rivers AREN'T made of cotton wool, and the moon ISN'T capable of growing and shrinking, then what is it that the camera is targeting an exact reproduction of?


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> My god is this still going!


 THANK. YOU. (You beat me to this)


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> I agree, but an SSD would
> 
> Yes, 10 keepers out of 36 images vs. 10 keepers out of 10.000



I commend your hit rate. As somebody who has not achieved that level of photographic skill, I appreciate that canon makes a camera that fits both our needs. You can swap 128MB cards in and out of your camera, I can stick with dual 128GB cards and we can both be happy.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

Dragon said:


> I also think it will come much sooner than July, given how short the delivery is on the 1DXIII compared to historical 1D delivery times. Canon has been stalling the last few years to get a bunch of stuff in order, both in R&D and fab. I think that stall period has now ended and we will be seeing repeated shock and awe attacks. The first clue was the VERY positive review DPR gave the 1DXIII (although the DPR fan base is still choking on that review).



Slow. Clap. This guy gets it.

Canon wants to launch the R line with a BANG and it's been in the works for years. The EOS R and RP (seeming now intro cameras) kicked the door open with specs & techs akin to the traditional, EF Mounted, D series we all know but afforded them the opportunity to start building a robust, high end glass library in a new mount and get sales going while they finalized the real R firebrands that look to be coming out now. New specs. New Techs. Like IBIS (and may be the best IBIS available once out particularly when mated with the lens IS) and crazy frame rates, and so on. That said, I'm VERY pleased my EOS R and won't be dumping it as it is a fine successor to my aging 5D3 and does exactly what I want it to for the volume photography I use it for. I will look to a new R to upgrade my video capability and my DX2 will still be shooting my fast action work. Camera for every job, as it were. And here comes the R Series to do exactly that moving forward.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> Yes but how many of those 10.000 images are worth keeping? I am talking here about _photography_, not excessive snapshooting. Also, who really collects up to 10.000 images on one card w/o saving data in the meantime? If if I shoot wildlife, I get up to 2000 images per day, that's already a lot.



2,000 and 10,000 would both be tragic numbers of photos to lose. Either case is quite a bit more severe than a lost roll of film. Again, this is a case of progress being good. If I shot professionally I would be terrified something might happen to my bag of undeveloped film between the shoot and the studio or lab.

As for volume, I can hit a few thousand shots shooting all day beer league sports events for friends. Games are back to back and carrying my laptop around is the last thing I’d want to do


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Slow. Clap. This guy gets it.
> 
> Canon wants to launch the R line with a BANG and it's been in the works for years. The EOS R and RP (seeming now intro cameras) kicked the door open with specs & techs akin to the traditional, EF Mounted, D series we all know but afforded them the opportunity to start building a robust, high end glass library in a new mount and get sales going while they finalized the real R firebrands that look to be coming out now. New specs. New Techs. Like IBIS (and may be the best IBIS available once out particularly when mated with the lens IS) and crazy frame rates, and so on. That said, I'm VERY pleased my EOS R and won't be dumping it as it is a fine successor to my aging 5D3 and does exactly what I want it to for the volume photography I use it for. I will look to a new R to upgrade my video capability and my DX2 will still be shooting my fast action work. Camera for every job, as it were. And here comes the R Series to do exactly that moving forward.



I’m sure we’ve all wanted to believe that “Canon has been stalling while they work on their monster sensor tech” for the last four years. I guess I never for a moment thought it was actually true.

Really, really hope I’m wrong.


----------



## per.farny (Jan 29, 2020)

As a landscape photographer who prints large, all these last couple of days have done is get me more and more nervous that a high megapixel model (equal to or North of 7RIV) may not come after all this year :/


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> 2,000 and 10,000 would both be tragic numbers of photos to lose. Either case is quite a bit more severe than a lost roll of film. Again, this is a case of progress being good. If I shot professionally I would be terrified something might happen to my bag of undeveloped film between the shoot and the studio or lab.
> 
> As for volume, I can hit a few thousand shots shooting all day beer league sports events for friends. Games are back to back and carrying my laptop around is the last thing I’d want to do



One weekend a year I will crack on average about 15,000 shots on my DX2. Massive dance recitals. A Hundred Dance numbers easily. None or few of which Ive seen before. Hundreds of different dancers. I realize that's sort of a unique situation but on average I toss close to half those shots, but I'm shooting full blast 14fps just to try and get a girl hitting the apex of a leap or something of that sort when I don't it's coming. That fills a 256GB CF Card twice almost. But I'm immediately off loading at the end of each of the four recitals onto a 1TB SSD and then formatting the card to start over again.


----------



## mppix (Jan 29, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Hopefully these cameras will sport the new quad pixel autofocus that is supposed to be the successor to the current dual pixel AF.



There is a lot that one could do with that - better AF, higher DR (see 5Div's DPRAW), or possibly even an upscaled resolution


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

per.farny said:


> As a landscape photographer who prints large, all these last couple of days have done is get me more and more nervous that a high megapixel model (equal to or North of 7RIV) may not come after all this year :/


48 MP is still VERY large...and frankly why I have almost zero interest on the R5. I have a 5DSR already. In a studio or otherwise well lit environment, I don't see this new sensor being much better in real world applications, and I would NEVER use that high MP sensor for regular use. I only pull out the 5DSR for special things like serious portrait work, and that means I have a lot of control over the lighting and shooting on a tripod anyway. That being said, the IBIS (probably) makes this R5 actually usable HANDHELD, which I can't say the same for the 5DSR short of a bare minimum 1/500 shutter speed even at 50mm. 

But yeah... this 83MP thing is lurking out there too....


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 29, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Thank you. Yes, an absolutely fantastic trip. I will share more photos with forum when relevant.
> 
> I have got quite few in my FB, raising awareness of unfortunate Life realities of native Balinese People working hard 7 days a week with. I holiday all their life for some USD $4 a day.


Wow! You don't stay at a resort, you live with the people. Too many of us forget how fortunate we are to have been born where we were.


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

dslrdummy said:


> If it's being announced in a couple of weeks, hopefully it will ship by May (photographic trip to Bandhavgarh, India planned). Here's hoping.


The rumour is still a July release, which seemed like a long time-lag until we heard about the potential for an R6 coming as well. And a new Rebel. And the 1D X III. That's a lot of bodies to roll out over the next few months.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

per.farny said:


> As a landscape photographer who prints large, all these last couple of days have done is get me more and more nervous that a high megapixel model (equal to or North of 7RIV) may not come after all this year :/



Based on the number of bodies rumored, I don’t think this is likely. Canon wouldn’t want to invest this much in mirrorless only to sacrifice the high MP crown* 

*yeah I’m aware they don’t currently hold it


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Then why is he wrong so often?


I don't think he's wrong as what he says matches other sources on the matter.



Lee Jay said:


> The entire point of raising ISO is to decrease read noise.


You don't decrease the read noise by raising ISO at all, that's the point. You can raise ISO after ADC by multiplying the digital output, or before ADC by analog amplification. Both ways, the reading has already happened so you can't reduce the read noise by raising ISO.

Moreover, after raising of ISO, the resulting value has both signal and noise amplified. That's why high-ISO images are literally noisier.



Lee Jay said:


> You just contradicted yourself.



Well capacity depends on the pixel size, but also on the quantum efficiency, so the size isn't the only factor. Newer sensors may have better QE, that's why comparing sensors of different generations from different manufacturers isn't relevant.



Lee Jay said:


> Shouldn't be, since read noise drops with well capacity, keeping DR constant when you change pixel size. That's why pixels that are 1/20th the size of other pixels can still have the same DR. If pixel size was a key driving factor, reducing pixel size by a factor of 20 would change DR, no matter what. It doesn't.



DR isn't kept constant at all because the read noise is actually low and almost constant, worst case linear, and well capacity grows quadratically as the pixel size grows. 
Also apart from the read noise there's a very significant digital conversion noise. As your well capacity drops, at some point you simply don't have enough electrons to feed the full range of ADC. If it's 14 bits, you need 16384 different values from electron counting, and very small pixels on small sensors just don't have enough capacity to feed the full range even for 12-bit ADCs.


----------



## troyanthonyphoto (Jan 29, 2020)

VICYASA said:


> And that money will be at least $3,999 USD, right? What's the estimate damage? Or, potential? Lets hear it!


with the A7R4 being $3,498.00 --- they can't go much higher than that imo


----------



## venusFivePhotoStudio (Jan 29, 2020)

Romain said:


> Canon has in mind our disappointment when 5DIV, 6DII and 80D came out (2016)... Between 2020 and 2022 Canon will blow our minds with amazing things for sure.... CANON IS A MASTERMIND  ... Please God, make my post true!!!...



5D IV was and still is a very good camera!


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 29, 2020)

troyanthonyphoto said:


> with the A7R4 being $3,498.00 --- they can't go much higher than that imo



Pricing it at the A7R4 level would be very aggressive. Would basically force Sony into a price cut. Canon cares about share, but ASP matters a ton.

This will be the new class leader, and I would expect it to be priced as such.

The only curveball, as many have mentioned, is that Canon wants people off of EF so they can purchase RF glass. Might be worth a small price war with Sony.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Based on the number of bodies rumored, I don’t think this is likely. Canon wouldn’t want to invest this much in mirrorless only to sacrifice the high MP crown*
> 
> *yeah I’m aware they don’t currently hold it


Craig reports he hears there are FOUR R bodies en route. We now have 2 (rumored at CR3). Those appear to be the R5 which looks like a 5D series replacement /match. The remaining rumors strongly suggest an entry level body below the RP, a High MP (83MP has been rumored), and a Video driven model to rival the a7S from Sony. So clearly the R6 doesn't meet the High MP slot. That either makes it the video model based on the DX3 sensor OR the entry level RP replacement. Given the rumored frame rate and the video specs, I'm having a hard time seeing it as the bargain model. Seems more likely to the video centric model. That leaves the bargain model RP replacement and the 83MP High Res model yet to be heard from as a CR3 (or CR2.5 as Craig says for the R6). We should have something before year end if the four R model 2020 rumored roadmap holds water


----------



## trounds (Jan 29, 2020)

where do I enter my card number....lol
cant wait


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Pricing it at the A7R4 level would be very aggressive. Would basically force Sony into a price cut. Canon cares about share, but ASP matters a ton.
> 
> This will be the new class leader, and I would expect it to be priced as such.
> 
> The only curveball, as many have mentioned, is that Canon wants people off of EF so they can purchase RF glass. Might be worth a small price war with Sony.



Canon releases 5D4 at $3300ish. Canon releases 5DS at about the same price. I think we will see the same thing here with all these models (short of the bargain RP replacement) priced very similarly each with unique feature sets geared to a specific use. One all arounder (R5). One video centric (R6??). One 83MP Resolution beast with no real video usage and slower frame rates for high level studio and landscaping (R Something)


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 29, 2020)

per.farny said:


> As a landscape photographer who prints large, all these last couple of days have done is get me more and more nervous that a high megapixel model (equal to or North of 7RIV) may not come after all this year :/



I hope they release both 45Mp and 80(?)Mp versions this year. With 5DIV and its 30Mps, I can print A1 at about 200 ppi which is ok. But tbh I only printed once this size. A2 or A3+ are more common for me. 45Mp on A1 will give about 250 ppi which is plenty. However I often crop and even without cropping more pixels are better for postprocessing. 

So after some elaboration I think 45Mp should be enough, especially if its DR is higher than in prospective 80Mp version. low-light and high ISO should definitely be better and it's important for nightscapes/astro.

But if they release both 45Mp and 80Mp ones simultaneously, I'll probably struggle to choose.


----------



## tron (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I hope they release both 45Mp and 80(?)Mp versions this year. With 5DIV and its 30Mps, I can print A1 at about 200 ppi which is ok. But tbh I only printed once this size. A2 or A3+ are more common for me. 45Mp on A1 will give about 250 ppi which is plenty. However I often crop and even without cropping more pixels are better for postprocessing.
> 
> So after some elaboration I think 45Mp should be enough, especially if its DR is higher than in prospective 80Mp version. low-light and high ISO should definitely be better and it's important for nightscapes/astro.
> 
> But if they release both 45Mp and 80Mp ones simultaneously, I'll probably struggle to choose.


Do not worry! Canon will not do that. They will release the 45Mp model get your money let you enjoy it a little and then... ....then they will release they 80Mp and make you get it too.  

Canon is ******* to get …. our money


----------



## per.farny (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> 48 MP is still VERY large...and frankly why I have almost zero interest on the R5. I have a 5DSR already. In a studio or otherwise well lit environment, I don't see this new sensor being much better in real world applications, and I would NEVER use that high MP sensor for regular use. I only pull out the 5DSR for special things like serious portrait work, and that means I have a lot of control over the lighting and shooting on a tripod anyway. That being said, the IBIS (probably) makes this R5 actually usable HANDHELD, which I can't say the same for the 5DSR short of a bare minimum 1/500 shutter speed even at 50mm.
> 
> But yeah... this 83MP thing is lurking out there too....


Agreed that ~45MP is still very large, and I hear you on staying with your 5DSR for now. 



davidhfe said:


> Based on the number of bodies rumored, I don’t think this is likely. Canon wouldn’t want to invest this much in mirrorless only to sacrifice the high MP crown*
> 
> *yeah I’m aware they don’t currently hold it



I hope so! They _have _liked that crown to date. 




Quarkcharmed said:


> I hope they release both 45Mp and 80(?)Mp versions this year. With 5DIV and its 30Mps, I can print A1 at about 200 ppi which is ok. But tbh I only printed once this size. A2 or A3+ are more common for me. 45Mp on A1 will give about 250 ppi which is plenty. However I often crop and even without cropping more pixels are better for postprocessing.
> 
> So after some elaboration I think 45Mp should be enough, especially if its DR is higher than in prospective 80Mp version. low-light and high ISO should definitely be better and it's important for nightscapes/astro.
> 
> But if they release both 45Mp and 80Mp ones simultaneously, I'll probably struggle to choose.



I'm hoping they announce simultaneously as you say, or at least disclose whether a 75/80 MP is coming soon or not at the time of the 45MP body announcement.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

per.farny said:


> I'm hoping they announce simultaneously as you say, or at least disclose whether a 75/80 MP is coming soon or not at the time of the 45MP body announcement.



That camera will get it's own special announcement in the second half of this year. It's way too big a deal for Canon for lump it in with everything else.


----------



## per.farny (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> That camera will get it's own special announcement in the second half of this year. It's way too big a deal for Canon for lump it in with everything else.



That doesn't sound wrong.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon releases 5D4 at $3300ish. Canon releases 5DS at about the same price. I think we will see the same thing here with all these models (short of the bargain RP replacement) priced very similarly each with unique feature sets geared to a specific use. One all arounder (R5). One video centric (R6??). One 83MP Resolution beast with no real video usage and slower frame rates for high level studio and landscaping (R Something)



I don't see an A7S-style camera coming from Canon.
1) We've seen only a few one-offs here. I can't think of something other than the 1Dc
2) It does seem like Canon prefers to put video-centric features in their video cameras.
3) What on earth would they put into it that's not in that R5 spec list?

On that last point, I suppose you could see some sort of crazy quad bayer sensor like folks have been talking about for the A7S3 rumors, or RAW or high bit rates. Seems like that would all be a lot for canon to bite off.


----------



## beachcolonist (Jan 30, 2020)

Who the hell cares about video? I don't! Please Canon make a stills camera that has no video features whatsoever. And if you don't care about vid, this camera is a yawner. If it has super weather sealing and if it has super dynamic range and if the viewfinder is the best available, then we have something. Otherwise it's just another Canon Chevy.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 30, 2020)

tron said:


> Do not worry! Canon will not do that. They will release the 45Mp model get your money let you enjoy it a little and then... ....then they will release they 80Mp and make you get it too.
> 
> Canon is ******* to get …. our money



Nah... It's Canon who should chase us and ask for money. I have budget for an R5 or a high-res R5S but not for two R's. And I'll probably be able to keep my 5DIV. If Canon doesn't deliver something that fits my needs, my budget will go to Sony. I really hope they do deliver, I don't really want to switch.


----------



## mpmark (Jan 30, 2020)

venusFivePhotoStudio said:


> 5D IV was and still is a very good camera!



dissapointment? I love the 5Div, is an amazing camera in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.


----------



## peters (Jan 30, 2020)

venusFivePhotoStudio said:


> 5D IV was and still is a very good camera!


Cant agree more 
It got beautiful colors and a nice look right out of the box. The handling, ergonomics and menu is perfect. Its robust and reliable, got dual card slots and all recent features you need for a professional workflow. The Dynamic Range was NEVER an issue for me - I cant remember any picture where I said "oh shit, I cant use it because of missing Dynamic range". It got a reliable AF in both viewfinder and LV. It got enough resolution for most situations. 
The 4k mode is not usable, which was a downer. The FPS could be a bit higher. But other than that I dont see anything wrong with it. I bought it a few month after release and used it as my main camera for most professional photography work I did since than. (Only recently I used the Sony A7R IV for some product and travel photograpy. I prefer it because of the higher megapixel count for product shots, though I dont like the colors that much)
The 5D IV was and still is a good camera for 95% of a photographers professional work.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 30, 2020)

per.farny said:


> I'm hoping they announce simultaneously as you say, or at least disclose whether a 75/80 MP is coming soon or not at the time of the 45MP body announcement.



The rumoured specs are spectacular but I'm concerned about the DR. I really hope they improve DR in this 45Mp model and keep it at least on par with 5DIV in the 80Mp one.


----------



## per.farny (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> The rumoured specs are spectacular but I'm concerned about the DR. I really hope they improve DR in this 45Mp model and keep it at least on par with 5DIV in the 80Mp one.



I know the initial rumor on the 75MP one included the line "sensor focused on the dynamic range” . Whether that would come true and make it down to the 45MP...dunno.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 30, 2020)

beachcolonist said:


> Who the hell cares about video? I don't! Please Canon make a stills camera that has no video features whatsoever. And if you don't care about vid, this camera is a yawner. If it has super weather sealing and if it has super dynamic range and if the viewfinder is the best available, then we have something. Otherwise it's just another Canon Chevy.



I guess if the highest throughout of any ILC like ever, a 15mp bump, a whole host of AF improvements, access to the best mount in photography, 5 stops of stabilization on all your current glass, etc is a yawner then congrats on not needing to drop $4K on a new camera.

I am confident that the rest of the things you mentioned will be improvements over the 5D series as well.


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> The rumoured specs are spectacular but I'm concerned about the DR. I really hope they improve DR in this 45Mp model and keep it at least on par with 5DIV in the 80Mp one.



I just cannot fathom that Canon would backslide on DR. The 5D4 isn’t really class leading, but it did put a nail in the coffin of the argument that canon “can’t” offer a competitive sensor.


----------



## Go Wild (Jan 30, 2020)

How many of you came here and refresh the site 256 times in the last 24 hours!! OMG!  Clearly we needed this from Canon! We got hyped with the 1dx mkIII and now this! There were 2 years waiting but i think it will be worth it! Can´t wait for more specs and confirmations!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 30, 2020)

per.farny said:


> I know the initial rumor on the 75MP one included the line "sensor focused on the dynamic range” . Whether that would come true and make it down to the 45MP...dunno.


Exactly. But if Canon specifically promises high DR, I'm happy to believe and I'll even preorder the camera.



davidhfe said:


> I just cannot fathom that Canon would backslide on DR. The 5D4 isn’t really class leading, but it did put a nail in the coffin of the argument that canon “can’t” offer a competitive sensor.



Yep. But literally all full frame models from Canon after 5DIV were worse than 5DIV in terms of DR. EOS R is slightly worse for some reason although it's the same sensor. The difference may be negligible but it's consistent across different sources.

Ah, we haven't seen 1DXIII measurements yet. Maybe it'll do better.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> You don't decrease the read noise by raising ISO at all, that's the point. You can raise ISO after ADC by multiplying the digital output, or before ADC by analog amplification. Both ways, the reading has already happened so you can't reduce the read noise by raising ISO.



I showed you actual data with reduced read noise at high ISO, and told you that raising ISO reduces read noise. It does. This is because adding analog gain increases the signal while leaving the electrical noise the same, thus reducing the noise relative to the signal. Since read noise is measured in e- (captured electrons), the read noise is reduced when you increase ISO.



> Moreover, after raising of ISO, the resulting value has both signal and noise amplified. That's why high-ISO images are literally noisier.



You literally don't know what you're talking about. High ISO images shot at the same exposure are less noisy than low ISO images. The reason you have this mistaken impression is that we usually use higher ISO when we want to reduce exposure (increase shutter speed or increase f-stop), and that means less light is captured. This also means less noise (noise = sqrt(signal)) but a lower signal-to-noise ratio (SNR = sqrt(captured photons)). Once you make the final image brightness the same, the lower signal-to-noise ratio means more visible noise, but that's mostly from shot noise (photon counting noise), not read noise.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2020)

beachcolonist said:


> Who the hell cares about video? I don't! Please Canon make a stills camera that has no video features whatsoever. And if you don't care about vid, this camera is a yawner. If it has super weather sealing and if it has super dynamic range and if the viewfinder is the best available, then we have something. Otherwise it's just another Canon Chevy.



You willing to pay more for a camera without video? Because that's what you'd have to do.


----------



## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> How many of you came here and refresh the site 256 times in the last 24 hours!! OMG!  Clearly we needed this from Canon! We got hyped with the 1dx mkIII and now this! There were 2 years waiting but i think it will be worth it! Can´t wait for more specs and confirmations!


Nah, I've been over at Fujirumors and those cats are freaking about the X100V. Fixed Lens Frenzy I tell you.



What's been going on here?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I showed you actual data with reduced read noise at high ISO, and told you that raising ISO reduces read noise. It does. This is because adding analog gain increases the signal while *leaving the electrical noise the same*, thus reducing the noise relative to the signal. Since read noise is measured in e- (captured electrons), the read noise is reduced when you increase ISO.



So you're just mixing up SNR and noise. You're saying that raising ISO decreases noise but then stating that noise stays the same. SNR is a ratio while the noise is a value in the ratio. 



Lee Jay said:


> You literally don't know what you're talking about. High ISO images shot at the same exposure are less noisy than low ISO images.


errrm... if all settings are the same but ISO is lower, the image is just darker. And no, it's not less noisy. With Canon sensors, they normally do analog amplification up to 4-8x which is ISO 400-800. The rest is digital amplification which in fact is just multiplication. So images at ISO 1600 and ISO 3200 will be roughly the same after you add +1 stop to the ISO1600 image in Lightroom.
Up to ISO 800 it's better to set ISO in camera so that it does analog amplification as it's more accurate. 

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5d-mark-iv/11 examples of ISO invariance in 5DIV.



Lee Jay said:


> This also means less noise (noise = sqrt(signal)) but a lower signal-to-noise ratio (SNR = sqrt(captured photons))



Can you show me a paper that has these formulas? noise equals to the square root of signal?? Also SNR by definition is (signal / noise) and nothing else.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

beachcolonist said:


> Who the hell cares about video? I don't! Please Canon make a stills camera that has no video features whatsoever. And if you don't care about vid, this camera is a yawner. If it has super weather sealing and if it has super dynamic range and if the viewfinder is the best available, then we have something. Otherwise it's just another Canon Chevy.


----------



## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


>


Chevette? Corvair? Corvette? Chevy ll? Chevelle SS? Monza?


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

slclick said:


> Chevette? Corvair? Corvette? Chevy ll? Chevelle SS? Monza?


*MULSANNE SPEED, sir. *In my world. I'm outside looking in the winder to see if somebody left the keys behind. Good samaritan, of course.


----------



## sanj (Jan 30, 2020)

mpmark said:


> Larger photosite do not gather more light then smaller ones? uuhhh, ok? sure!
> I'm not going to get into a pointless discussion, read up on photosites ISO and light gathering, believe what you want if you don't want. Last reply to you my friend.


Jay is right.


----------



## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> *MULSANNE SPEED, sir. *In my world. I'm outside looking in the winder.


Well, I do like how your vehicle has an espresso machine and a 3D printer standard equipment. Wow


----------



## davo (Jan 30, 2020)

This new post on the EOS R5 ( the mirrorless 5D ) already has more comments by far than any post going back to at least early last year ( I finally gave up looking back). Canon....make this the camera we have obviously been yearning for. Don't F it it up with the Canon Cripple Hammer


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

beachcolonist said:


> Who the hell cares about video? I don't! Please Canon make a stills camera that has no video features whatsoever. And if you don't care about vid, this camera is a yawner. If it has super weather sealing and if it has super dynamic range and if the viewfinder is the best available, then we have something. Otherwise it's just another Canon Chevy.



A LOT of people. Like, everyone who bought an a7s, and GH4 and 5, an now an SH1, and Fuji Xt series, an so on. Most of what I do is stills but video is growing and there is a big market out there for video focused cameras that aren't big body $10K machines


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So you're just mixing up SNR and noise. You're saying that raising ISO decreases noise but then stating that noise stays the same. SNR is a ratio while the noise is a value in the ratio.
> 
> 
> errrm... if all settings are the same but ISO is lower, the image is just darker. And no, it's not less noisy. With Canon sensors, they normally do analog amplification up to 4-8x which is ISO 400-800. The rest is digital amplification which in fact is just multiplication. So images at ISO 1600 and ISO 3200 will be roughly the same after you add +1 stop to the ISO1600 image in Lightroom.
> ...


Why are you still feeding that troll?


----------



## neurorx (Jan 30, 2020)

Given these specs regarding stabilization, will the EF and RF lenses both equally add to the 5 stop IBIS? Converting to RF glass isn’t going to be cheap.


----------



## Gloads (Jan 30, 2020)

The R5 sounds like a great camera for many, but where is the RS???

I was looking to upgrade to the 5DSR last summer when the rumors of the RS dropped. At 83MP, then 80, then even at 75MP, I was not only looking forward to the mirrorless experience, but willing to spend on new glass as well, even though I have a large investment in EF L lenses.

I waited and was happy to finally hear about a February announcement and release shortly after. Then less than a month away, and just two days ago it all changed. Now it is 45MP and a July release?

I can't see spending +$6k on a new body and glass, when I can get 5MP more for $1,400, and use my perfectly good glass.

What am I missing (other than Video which is not a priority for me)?


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

Gloads said:


> The R5 sounds like a great camera for many, but where is the RS???
> 
> I was looking to upgrade to the 5DSR last summer when the rumors of the RS dropped. At 83MP, then 80, then even at 75MP, I was not only looking forward to the mirrorless experience, but willing to spend on new glass as well, even though I have a large investment in EF L lenses.
> 
> ...


If it ain't for you, it ain't for you. Megapixels are everything, after all.


----------



## Gloads (Jan 30, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> If it ain't for you, it ain't for you. Megapixels are everything, after all.


My conern is that while R5 rumors are two days old, RS rumors are 6 months old, and now crickets... Did the R5 replace the RS? Is there some issue with the 75MP sensor? What gives?


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

Gloads said:


> My conern is that while R5 rumors are two days old, RS rumors are 6 months old, and now crickets... Did the R5 replace the RS? Is there some issue with the 75MP sensor? What gives?


Only Canon knows it's road map and release schedule. A week or two ago people were expecting an R Mark II and not the R5. The high resolution camera will be here. We just don't know when, however, 45mp is nothing to sneeze at. Then there's IBIS, a higher frame rate, touch screen, articulated screen, probably better DR etc., etc., etc. as compared to the old 5DSr. I wouldn't just look at it as being just a 5mp difference. These are two vastly different cameras.



Gloads said:


> I can't see spending +$6k on a new body and glass, when I can get 5MP more for $1,400, and use my perfectly good glass.



BTW: You can seamlessly use your EF glass on any RF mount camera. You don't have to buy glass. You probably already knew that though. Where would you get a new 5DSr for $1,400? Still $3,500+ at Adorama tonight. https://www.adorama.com/ica5dsr.html


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## Gloads (Jan 30, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Only Canon knows it's road map and release schedule. A week or two ago people were expecting an R Mark II and not the R5. The high resolution camera will be here. We just don't know when, however, 45mp is nothing to sneeze at. Then there's IBIS, a higher frame rate, touch screen, articulated screen, probably better DR etc., etc., etc. as compared to the old 5DSr. I wouldn't just look at it as being just a 5mp difference. These are two vastly different cameras.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW: You can seamlessly use your EF glass on any RF mount camera. You don't have to buy glass. You probably already knew that though. Where would you get a new 5DSr for $1,400? Still $3,500+ at Adorama tonight. https://www.adorama.com/ica5dsr.html


I might find the articulating screen and IBIS liberating, as I mostly shoot on a tripod these days. Better DR would be good as well, but I would rather have the extra 20MP of the RS. There would have to be a spectacular piece of RF glass to justify $4k on the body (and then the glass) instead of $1,400 (grey market) on a 5DSR.


----------



## davo (Jan 30, 2020)

Gloads said:


> My conern is that while R5 rumors are two days old, RS rumors are 6 months old, and now crickets... Did the R5 replace the RS? Is there some issue with the 75MP sensor? What gives?


My guess is the RII, RS and the R5 may be all the same camera (the R5). These are rumors we are feeding off of. The RII name was just made up to refer to the next rumored R.....that name became the RS based on someone seeing that moniker somewhere ??? but that "S" was actually a "5" not an "S" ??, but now we have solid intel that the name is actually the R5.


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 30, 2020)

Gloads said:


> I can't see spending +$6k on a new body and glass, when I can get 5MP more for $1,400, and use my perfectly good glass.
> 
> What am I missing (other than Video which is not a priority for me)?



Versus the R5, assuming the specs are correct? IBIS, higher fps, better base ISO DR, mirrorless features like Eye AF, and an EVF. That said the 5Ds/sR have DSLR features like OVF, long battery life, and PDAF. PDAF is not as intelligent as DPAF when it comes to subject tracking, but is very fast/reliable if you can keep an AF point on target.

I don't honestly expect the R5's high ISO to be much better, though it will probably be 1/3 - 2/3 stop better.

If none of these things matter to you then a 5DsR is the way to go. It wasn't too long ago that I overhauled my kit centered around the 5Ds, and most of my lenses now have IS. I've got nothing but praise for that camera and sensor. Sharpness, fine detail, color science, high ISO, AF/AE performance...even DR seems fine as long as you expose difficult scenes ETTR and ignore spec sheets. Lower fps means adjusting your habits a bit, but AF is superb and I'm nailing 'peak moment' shots easily.

I think the 5Ds/sR gray market (and D800/810 used for Nikon guys) are an absolute steal right now for stills photography. That said...I've wanted a 4k capable camera for a while so I'm eager to see the R5 announcement and pricing. But it would not replace my 5Ds if I do end up buying one. It would compliment it.


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 30, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Where would you get a new 5DSr for $1,400?



All over eBay gray market. At one point before Christmas the 5Ds version was hitting $1,100.


----------



## deleteme (Jan 30, 2020)

Kit. said:


> They are. I would be *very* surprised if this camera did not support CCAPI.


Is that something they are just starting? Because I have not seen any apps that work with any of my cameras other than Canon's pathetic one.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 30, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> I don't honestly expect the R5's high ISO to be much better, though it will probably be 1/3 - 2/3 stop better.



Better than what? 5Ds or 5DIV?


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Better than what? 5Ds or 5DIV?



5Ds/sR. The R5 might not be any better than a 5D IV.

Note that I'm speaking about noise in a gray card test. In the real world with detail I would rank the 5Ds higher than the 5D IV. Even at 12,800 sharpness and fine detail are considerably better leaving plenty of room to eliminate small noise differences with LNR/CNR. From a real world perspective I'm sure I would judge the R5 better, even if it has the same noise levels as the 5D IV when shooting a gray card or color chart, simply because of the 45mp.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 30, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> 5Ds/sR. The R5 might not be any better than a 5D IV.
> 
> Note that I'm speaking about noise in a gray card test. In the real world with detail I would rank the 5Ds higher than the 5D IV. Even at 12,800 sharpness and fine detail are considerably better leaving plenty of room to eliminate small noise differences with LNR/CNR. From a real world perspective I'm sure I would judge the R5 better, even if it has the same noise levels as the 5D IV when shooting a gray card or color chart, simply because of the 45mp.



This chart shows 5Ds lags 1.1 stops behind 5DIV and 1.9 (!) stops from A7RIV.




__





Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting






www.photonstophotos.net





1/3 or even 2/3 stop improvement won't be enough to take me in tbh. If it's at least as good as 5DIV it'll be ok, but otherwise I'll probably switch to Sony...


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jan 30, 2020)

Gloads said:


> The R5 sounds like a great camera for many, but where is the RS???
> 
> I was looking to upgrade to the 5DSR last summer when the rumors of the RS dropped. At 83MP, then 80, then even at 75MP, I was not only looking forward to the mirrorless experience, but willing to spend on new glass as well, even though I have a large investment in EF L lenses.
> 
> ...



Patience


----------



## edoorn (Jan 30, 2020)

The a7r4 shoots files that are 9500 pixels wide. D850, which is also 45 mp like supposedly the R5, files that are about 8300 pixels on the long side. Only 1200 pixel or 15% difference . If that makes all the difference in your pictures I’d think you are doing something wrong. Better buy a GFX 100 then.


----------



## Laslen (Jan 30, 2020)

edoorn said:


> The a7r4 shoots files that are 9500 pixels wide. D850, which is also 45 mp like supposedly the R5, files that are about 8300 pixels on the long side. Only 1200 pixel or 15% difference . If that makes all the difference in your pictures I’d think you are doing something wrong. Better buy a GFX 100 then.


I think photography is the only gadget hobby I know of where people are openly criticized for wanting more features. It gives manufacturers excuses to be lazy and leads to smartphones that perform better than cameras.

If you seriously believe *anyone* needs to justify themselves for wanting more megapixels, better video, or ANYTHING, doesn't matter what it is — you should probably just go back to film. I don't know why you're here.

There are types of photography that benefit from heavy cropping. Assuming everyone is doing the same type of photography you are is extremely childish. Have an open mind. And this isn't just directed at the post I quoted, but earlier ones.


----------



## Gloads (Jan 30, 2020)

davo said:


> My guess is the RII, RS and the R5 may be all the same camera (the R5). These are rumors we are feeding off of. The RII name was just made up to refer to the next rumored R.....that name became the RS based on someone seeing that moniker somewhere ??? but that "S" was actually a "5" not an "S" ??, but now we have solid intel that the name is actually the R5.


The RII was the minor upgrade to 32MP of the original, and we had only heard about it for a few weeks, with no hands on leak. The RS was a guess at the name due to the high MP, but had solidified over the fall, and was the most solid rumored R. I find it hard to believe that 20MP fell off the sensor, and the S changed to 5 in process, especially as we have only known that massive change for a few days. Maybe the DIGIC X gives Canon the flexibility to ship an APS-C R, R6, RII, R5, and the RS in the first half of the year, but why would they flood the zone. It is not their style.


----------



## lucuias (Jan 30, 2020)

I do think 8k is kinda overkill at the moment,but a nice feature to have.4k 120fps is kinda a wet dream to me .Probably heavy crop.My only interest is how good is the 4k 60fps .Does it have autofocus and 10bit 422.Give me better dynamic range and 240fps in full hd


----------



## snoke (Jan 30, 2020)

Gloads said:


> My conern is that while R5 rumors are two days old, RS rumors are 6 months old, and now crickets... Did the R5 replace the RS? Is there some issue with the 75MP sensor? What gives?



Rumor says 2020 have 4 EOS R cameras.








Canon will release four new full-frame cameras in 2020 [CR2]


We have been working hard trying to piece together a Canon roadmap for 2020 in regards to camera bodies, and we think we have most of it figured out. The follow



www.canonrumors.com





1. R5
2. R6
3. Rs
4. R??

Old list now bad list. New list better.


----------



## navastronia (Jan 30, 2020)

I'm gonna cross-post what I said in the R6 thread, since it's relevant here as well.

The more I think about the R-mount series as a whole, the more I want Canon to offer:

1) a low-end full-frame (RP, which fully replaces the 6D, the previous low-end FF series)
2) a workhorse full-frame (R5)
3) a video-oriented full-frame (a7s competitor, i.e., the camera possibly described in the R6 thread)
4) a high-MP full-frame (Rs)
5) a speed/sports full-frame (R1)

As for APS-C, let it continue in the M line and in the EF bodies, like the Rebels and 90D. If people stop buying them, so be it - full steam ahead on full-frame.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 30, 2020)

edoorn said:


> The a7r4 shoots files that are 9500 pixels wide. D850, which is also 45 mp like supposedly the R5, files that are about 8300 pixels on the long side. Only 1200 pixel or 15% difference . If that makes all the difference in your pictures I’d think you are doing something wrong. Better buy a GFX 100 then.


It doesn't make 'all' the difference. It allows to crop more and/or print larger. I like sometimes to convert aspect ratio to 4:5 or 16:9. Effectively it's cropping.

This image is one shot (not a composite) on 30Mp 5DIV but very heavy crop. I only had a few seconds to shoot it and didn't have time to change the lens to a longer one. Even at 70mm it's a heavy crop. It's somewhat usable on the web but not printable. If I had a 20Mp camera, it'd be even less usable, but had I had a 80Mp monster it'd be printable.

Not that I'm having such conditions forcing me to crop all the time. But it's my money and there are 45 and 60Mp cameras on the market already, I don't have to buy a hugely expensive GFX100.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 30, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> Is that something they are just starting?


On February 2019. All Canon cameras released since then have it.


----------



## edoorn (Jan 30, 2020)

Laslen said:


> I think photography is the only gadget hobby I know of where people are openly criticized for wanting more features. It gives manufacturers excuses to be lazy and leads to smartphones that perform better than cameras.
> 
> If you seriously believe *anyone* needs to justify themselves for wanting more megapixels, better video, or ANYTHING, doesn't matter what it is — you should probably just go back to film. I don't know why you're here.
> 
> There are types of photography that benefit from heavy cropping. Assuming everyone is doing the same type of photography you are is extremely childish. Have an open mind. And this isn't just directed at the post I quoted, but earlier ones.



I'm just trying to point out that although the difference in resolutions at first sight might seem big, the extra resolution in reality only gets you a few more few more inch of print at 300dpi. If a GFX100 is out of reach budget wise (which I could very much imagine), and you'd like to get the highest resolution out of a FF mirrorless, it's probably better to wait for the real high res Canon option, because that's surely coming as well, and I bet the resolution will be significantly higher than 60mpix, in order to differentiate it from the A7rIV and this R5. Who knows, might be even 80 or higher.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Probably documentation, but it depends on how much of the scene they created.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been to many art museums in many cities and I've been to many art shows, and I've never seen any photography I'd call art, from any photographer. Some people who have seen some of my photography think it's art, even though I don't.


Its an interesting debate to be sure. And from another angle it actually shines a good light on photography over art as a lot of what is called 'art' is self indulgent and pretentious crap with no meaning behind it, rather just an aim to be lauded by pretentious and self indulgent people. But really, what my opinion shows is that art cannot really be defined as it is a completely and totally subjective concept. There is nothing objective about it


----------



## koenkooi (Jan 30, 2020)

tron said:


> Since I do not believe that 2 devices can connect via Bluetooth to a phone simultaneously and even so Canon camera connect connects to one camera every time we would need two phones if we carried 2 EOS R cameras. Instead 7DII and 5D4 have one. I bought the separate GPS Canon device for my 5DsR. It is very simple, very flexible and works just fine. But I wouldn't want to pay a second one. Anyway this is a minor detail. We will not hold it against Canon if EVERY other aspect is as reported here



Camera Connect on my iphone has no trouble connecting to my RP and M6II simultaneously:



Having said that, when I go out I attach the GP-E2 to the RP. I also set the GP-E2 to log mode and keep a separate log on my phone. Now I just need to remember changing the camera time every time I cross timezones. EXIF only logs local time, not UTC .


----------



## tron (Jan 30, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Camera Connect on my iphone has no trouble connecting to my RP and M6II simultaneously:
> View attachment 188419
> 
> 
> Having said that, when I go out I attach the GP-E2 to the RP. I also set the GP-E2 to log mode and keep a separate log on my phone. Now I just need to remember changing the camera time every time I cross timezones. EXIF only logs local time, not UTC .


That's interesting! Thanks for the info. I use Android but that shouldn't change anything. UP to now I have 2 cameras that could take advantage of this EOS R and 200D.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Romain said:


> Canon has in mind our disappointment when 5DIV, 6DII and 80D came out (2016)... Between 2020 and 2022 Canon will blow our minds with amazing things for sure.... CANON IS A MASTERMIND  ... Please God, make my post true!!!...


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

shunsai said:


> This sounds like the mirrorless I've been waiting for! I'm a little surprised that there's so much doubt about it. What I still remember is NO ONE saw the original R coming. Even this site thought it was wrong. And then it just dropped. It's rare, but every once in a while, Canon blows all expectations out of the water. No one really saw the 5D Mark II being what it was either. Canon's been long overdue for another one of those moments.



Even Canon didn't see what the 5D Mark II was going to become...


----------



## AlP (Jan 30, 2020)

Don't know if this has been posted before (too many posts to read them all), but there is an interesting comment in the presentation material from Canon's 2019 financials (https://global.canon/en/ir/conference/pdf/conf2019e-note.pdf):

_"In 2020, although we expect market contraction to continue at a similar rate and the market size to be around 7.5 million units, we also see stable demand for professional and advanced-amateur models. In order to maintain profitability, it is important for us to secure market share and improve our product mix further in this area.

Although we have launched two full-frame mirrorless cameras as well as ten dedicated lenses, our lineup is still insufficient. In order to recover from our late entry into the mirrorless camera market, *we have plans to launch a model that incorporates a newly developed image sensor and image-processing engine that offer even more advanced features.* We will work to raise our presence in the mirrorless camera category, leveraging large trade exhibitions around the world. Even amid increasing competition, we will expand sales of higher-end models driven by new products and aim for top market share even in the mirrorless camera market.

At the same time, we will expand our lineup of dedicated lenses *launching several innovative ones* that take advantage of the new mount that allows greater flexibility when designing lenses. We will accelerate sales by responding to user need to capture various images, expanding options by combining camera bodies and lenses."_

Curious if that "model" is going to be the rumoured R5.
Several innovative new lenses also sounds good (just need to win a lottery...)


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 30, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> But really, what my opinion shows is that art cannot really be defined as it is a completely and totally subjective concept. There is nothing objective about it


There's nothing objective about our assessment and evaluation of art, but misc. dictionaries give a good definition of art. 

_



Art

Click to expand...

_


> is a diverse range of human activities in creating visual, auditory or performing artifacts (artworks), expressing the author's imaginative, conceptual ideas, or technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power.



So photography is art when it's used to convey author's imaginative and conceptual ideas to be appreciated. As many people, including myself, pointed out before, not all photography is art but a good portion of photography is. The technical photographic process isn't art, the way you expose the results for appreciation may make it art.
But the level of appreciation and quality of art is very subjective, yes.


----------



## gmon750 (Jan 30, 2020)

As a current (and happy) 5DM3 owner, add dual slots and we’re talking!


----------



## $winter (Jan 30, 2020)




----------



## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2020)

These spec look great Canon and a superb edition to use with Canon's excellent RF Glass.

However don't think the 4K 120 FPS nor 8K 30 fps features will be present uncropped, expect that 4K 120 FPS could be cropped like 1.6x and 8K option could be time-lapsed option


----------



## BillB (Jan 30, 2020)

neurorx said:


> Given these specs regarding stabilization, will the EF and RF lenses both equally add to the 5 stop IBIS? Converting to RF glass isn’t going to be cheap.


Does it really matter beyond 6 or 7 stops of stabilization? At some point it's just about silly magic numbers.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jan 30, 2020)

BillB said:


> Does it really matter beyond 6 or 7 stops of stabilization? At some point it's just about silly magic numbers.



It's more important the efficiency and the average i think. Reaching 5 stops 90% of the time
is better than doing 7 stops for 1 shot in 100 so they can call it "UP TO 7 stops"


----------



## koenkooi (Jan 30, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> These spec look great Canon and a superb edition to use with Canon's excellent RF Glass.
> 
> However don't think the 4K 120 FPS nor 8K 30 fps features will be present uncropped, expect that 4K 120 FPS could be cropped like 1.6x and 8K option could be time-lapsed option



There's not much room to crop from a 45MP 3:2 aspect to get 8k.


----------



## bbb34 (Jan 30, 2020)

AlP said:


> Don't know if this has been posted before [...]


Yes, it has.


----------



## Architect1776 (Jan 30, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I'm gonna cross-post what I said in the R6 thread, since it's relevant here as well.
> 
> The more I think about the R-mount series as a whole, the more I want Canon to offer:
> 
> ...



Agreed especially if there is a FF with 30+ MP crop at 20 FPS.


----------



## Architect1776 (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> It doesn't make 'all' the difference. It allows to crop more and/or print larger. I like sometimes to convert aspect ratio to 4:5 or 16:9. Effectively it's cropping.
> 
> This image is one shot (not a composite) on 30Mp 5DIV but very heavy crop. I only had a few seconds to shoot it and didn't have time to change the lens to a longer one. Even at 70mm it's a heavy crop. It's somewhat usable on the web but not printable. If I had a 20Mp camera, it'd be even less usable, but had I had a 80Mp monster it'd be printable.
> 
> Not that I'm having such conditions forcing me to crop all the time. But it's my money and there are 45 and 60Mp cameras on the market already, I don't have to buy a hugely expensive GFX100.



Why is it that 6-10 MP photos produced some beautiful prints in the past and now they cannot produce beautiful prints?
Has printing capability gone down that much in the last 10 years?
Perhaps we need to have manufacturers work on improving printing capabilities back up to at least what they were 10 or so years ago.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 30, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Why is it that 6-10 MP photos produced some beautiful prints in the past and now they cannot produce beautiful prints?
> Has printing capability gone down that much in the last 10 years?



6mp and 3:2 give 3000 pixels on the longest side, if you print it on A2 it'll be about 130 ppi, and 90 ppi on A1. The print may be beautiful but not of the greatest quality. Any cropping off 3000 pixels will cause quick further degradation.
Also 6mp images are smaller than high-res monitors (4K+).


----------



## lawny13 (Jan 30, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Sure seems like a 5D mirrorless version to me. And early July shipment sure fits the bill. Would most likely get a lot of pre orders prior to opening ceremonies for many that chose to replace their 5Dmk 4 with mirrorless, especially if toting that CFespress card



Hardly. If it is any 5D mirrorless then it is on PCP, coke and steroids all at once. The 5D doesn't do this kinda of video stuff (8k and 4k 120,or even 4k full width). The 5D line doesn't do anywhere close 12fps m-shutter, or 20 fps e-shutter. etc etc etc. 

If anything this is a high MP 1DXIII mirrorless, cause 20 fpse-shutter is A9 territory. Just from that alone I would guess this will be around 4-5k price point. Knowing canon maybe even close to 6k. 

In my opinion, RP = 6D, R = 5D line, and this thing would be 1D line. As close to an analogy as it can be, cause of the R5 is more in the form factor of the R it is 5D form factor but 1D specs...


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So you're just mixing up SNR and noise.



I'm not mixing up anything.



> You're saying that raising ISO decreases noise



For the same exposure. That's why you should always use the highest ISO you can for a given exposure. The limit is protecting highlights.



> but then stating that noise stays the same.



But you're amplifying the signal.



> SNR is a ratio while the noise is a value in the ratio.



Right, and when you amplify the signal and keep the noise the same, SNR goes up.



> errrm... if all settings are the same but ISO is lower, the image is just darker.



Right. And when you brighten it in post, you amplify both the noise and the signal - SNR doesn't change.



> And no, it's not less noisy.



Right - it's more noisy than if you had used ISO increase to amplify.



> With Canon sensors, they normally do analog amplification up to 4-8x which is ISO 400-800.



Even my 20D and 5D did 16x (ISO 1600) in analog.



> The rest is digital amplification which in fact is just multiplication. So images at ISO 1600 and ISO 3200 will be roughly the same after you add +1 stop to the ISO1600 image in Lightroom.
> Up to ISO 800 it's better to set ISO in camera so that it does analog amplification as it's more accurate.



It's less noisy because read noise is reduced - exactly what I've been telling you all along.



> Can you show me a paper that has these formulas? noise equals to the square root of signal?? Also SNR by definition is (signal / noise) and nothing else.











Shot noise - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

Not sure how someone would feel let down fro


Architect1776 said:


> Why is it that 6-10 MP photos produced some beautiful prints in the past and now they cannot produce beautiful prints?
> Has printing capability gone down that much in the last 10 years?
> Perhaps we need to have manufacturers work on improving printing capabilities back up to at least what they were 10 or so years ago.


It's the dreaded the G.A.S. virus. 

It wears out the keys on your keyboard
It does crazy things to your credit card balance
It gets you banned from photographic website forums
Most importantly, it makes your current gear inoperable.


----------



## Gazwas (Jan 30, 2020)

Gloads said:


> The R5 sounds like a great camera for many, but where is the RS???
> 
> I was looking to upgrade to the 5DSR last summer when the rumors of the RS dropped. At 83MP, then 80, then even at 75MP, I was not only looking forward to the mirrorless experience, but willing to spend on new glass as well, even though I have a large investment in EF L lenses.
> 
> ...


It basically looks like Canon shafted us S (studio) camera users again even thougth I've been repeatedly told (like fact) by folkes on these forums when I doubeted it that the RS was coming early 2020........ 

They amalgamated the wonderful 1Ds line buy telling us the 1Dx was its replacement (which it wasn't), then gave us the half baked 5Ds by simply pimping out a standard 5D body with a 50MP chip. Then all the talk starts of a Mirrorless 70-80MP R(S?) camera that is focued on the dynamic range with reports of people having seen and tested it.

Then......... the news myself and many have been waitiing for................... 20FPS, 8K video and 45MP? 

Don't get me wrong the R5 lookes like an amazing camera and will be in the waiting line for one but its not the camera I really wanted after all this talk of a high resolution RS with 70-80MP.

I personally hope the rumours are only half right and we will in fact get two camera at CP+, this R5 but also an R5s as originally promised rumoured.


----------



## snoke (Jan 30, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> I personally hope the rumours are only half right and we will in fact get two camera at CP+, this R5 but also an R5s as originally promised rumoured.



Canonrumor say 4 fullframe EOS mirrorless in 2020.

Everyone write thinking EOS R5 is only mirrorless camera in 2020.

Also R6 rumor. R6 not 70-80MP camera. R5 + R6 = 2 EOS R.

2020 have 12 months. 4 cameras in 12 months. This is month #1. 11 more months.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> It basically looks like Canon shafted us S (studio) camera users again even thougth I've been repeatedly told (like fact) by folkes on these forums when I doubeted it that the RS was coming early 2020........
> 
> They amalgamated the wonderful 1Ds line buy telling us the 1Dx was its replacement (which it wasn't), then gave us the half baked 5Ds by simply pimping out a standard 5D body with a 50MP chip. Then all the talk starts of a Mirrorless 70-80MP R(S?) camera that is focued on the dynamic range with reports of people having seen and tested it.
> 
> ...



Explain what you can do with a 70-80MP camera that you can't do with a 45MP camera?

I've printed 52 inch long-edge with 12MP images and they look great. The only image I have seen that didn't look good in print was an 8MP crop from a 12MP D700 that was unwisely printed 28 feet long in a corridor where you can get right up next to it. I prepared an image of mine to replace it, and it was taken with a 20MP 7D Mark II, as a multi-shot panorama (3.2:1 ratio).

Honestly, what are you doing with a camera that 45MP isn't enough? I have a use case (focal-length-limited where I'm cropping to 3840x2560) but if you can properly frame, 45MP seems to be enough for about anything to me.


----------



## Gazwas (Jan 30, 2020)

snoke said:


> Canonrumor say 4 fullframe EOS mirrorless in 2020.
> 
> Everyone write thinking EOS R5 is only mirrorless camera in 2020.
> 
> ...


Canonrumor and forums say EOS Rs come is February 2020 for the last 10 months.........

Reading R5 specs, I think Canon are seeing their mirrorless is the future of mainstream video cameras and high resolution stills doesn't fit with that philosophy.


----------



## per.farny (Jan 30, 2020)

snoke said:


> Canonrumor say 4 fullframe EOS mirrorless in 2020.
> 
> Everyone write thinking EOS R5 is only mirrorless camera in 2020.
> 
> ...


Not 4 mirrorless fullframes, just "4 fullframe cameras". 1DXIII is the 3rd. Just one more slot available for what I'm also looking for, i.e. the high megapixel one :/


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2020)

snoke said:


> Canonrumor say 4 fullframe EOS mirrorless in 2020.
> 
> Everyone write thinking EOS R5 is only mirrorless camera in 2020.
> 
> ...



I could be mistaken, but I believe the rumor was that Canon will release four full-frame camera bodies this year -- not four full-frame EOS R bodies this year.

The 1DXIII was one of the four full-frame bodies to be released. Next to be announced/released appear to be the R5 and R6. That would make three. It still seems likely (if the four full-frame bodies rumor is true) that the fourth will be the high-megapixel body rumored to be the RS.

Your point, though, about there being a lot of year left (and not to panic in the meantime) is appropriate.


----------



## Gazwas (Jan 30, 2020)

per.farny said:


> Not 4 mirrorless fullframes, just "4 fullframe cameras". 1DXIII is the 3rd. Just one more slot available for what I'm also looking for, i.e. the high megapixel one :/


Or how about the low light very video centric camera recently rumoured seem more likely after reading Canons financials article just posted.
_
"Video will play a huge role in the EOS R System for sure. For example, an 8K video capable camera is already in our EOS R-series roadmap"_


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2020)

per.farny said:


> Not 4 mirrorless fullframes, just "4 fullframe cameras". 1DXIII is the 3rd. Just one more slot available for what I'm also looking for, i.e. the high megapixel one :/



If I had stopped to read the message posted while I was composing my message, I could have just said, "Ditto."


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Or how about the low light very video centric camera recently rumoured seem more likely after reading Canons financials article just posted.
> 
> _"Video will play a huge role in the EOS R System for sure. For example, an 8K video capable camera is already in our EOS R-series roadmap"_



I think what we'll find is that Canon is going to put attractive video features in multiple R bodies, not just one.


----------



## Lenscracker (Jan 30, 2020)

JohnC said:


> Lee you have obviously put a lot of thought into this, so kudos for that effort.
> 
> I would point out a few things to you however:
> 
> ...


Well worded.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> It doesn't make 'all' the difference. It allows to crop more and/or print larger. I like sometimes to convert aspect ratio to 4:5 or 16:9. Effectively it's cropping.
> 
> This image is one shot (not a composite) on 30Mp 5DIV but very heavy crop. I only had a few seconds to shoot it and didn't have time to change the lens to a longer one. Even at 70mm it's a heavy crop. It's somewhat usable on the web but not printable. If I had a 20Mp camera, it'd be even less usable, but had I had a 80Mp monster it'd be printable.
> 
> Not that I'm having such conditions forcing me to crop all the time. But it's my money and there are 45 and 60Mp cameras on the market already, I don't have to buy a hugely expensive GFX100.


Great photo! You are right, sometimes a decent crop can make or break a photo. We don't always see things the same way once we start to go through the photos. It's too bad that one isn't printable as it is a wonderful shot.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

neurorx said:


> Given these specs regarding stabilization, will the EF and RF lenses both equally add to the 5 stop IBIS? Converting to RF glass isn’t going to be cheap.


I would imagine they will perform about equally as well provided you use a Canon produced EF-RF mount adapter. No promises on third party stuff.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I'm gonna cross-post what I said in the R6 thread, since it's relevant here as well.
> 
> The more I think about the R-mount series as a whole, the more I want Canon to offer:
> 
> ...



And I'd say 1-4 will all likely happen this year, but #5 won't be til at least 2021.


----------



## Gazwas (Jan 30, 2020)

Famateur said:


> I think what we'll find is that Canon is going to put attractive video features in multiple R bodies, not just one.


Do attractive video features fit with 80MP sensors is my point and possibly why after all this time we are getting an R5 rather tha the RS?

The suggested July release seems like an awfully long time for a totally ready for market camera.

Or is it July because one (R5) just leap frogged another (RS)?


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> And I'd say 1-4 will all likely happen this year, but #5 won't be til at least 2021.




At least. Will current 1-series sports sideline folks even try messing around with adaptors? Won't they wait for native RF superteles?

Photojournos, on the other hand, I could see living with the holy trinity 2.8 zooms already out there. I still think they are first marines on the beach when it comes to high speed 1-series build mirrorless adoption. 

- A


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 30, 2020)

This R5 full frame rumor is approaching 750 posts in 24 hours. The rumor on the new APS-C sensor Rebel Ti8 has 27 posts now in roughly the same period. If you wonder where The market interest is ... at least on this form ... look no further.


Gazwas said:


> It basically looks like Canon shafted us S (studio) camera users again even thougth I've been repeatedly told (like fact) by folkes on these forums when I doubeted it that the RS was coming early 2020........
> 
> They amalgamated the wonderful 1Ds line buy telling us the 1Dx was its replacement (which it wasn't), then gave us the half baked 5Ds by simply pimping out a standard 5D body with a 50MP chip. Then all the talk starts of a Mirrorless 70-80MP R(S?) camera that is focued on the dynamic range with reports of people having seen and tested it.
> 
> ...


Patience. There is only so much Canon can do at one time. They’ve done a lot quickly. I suspect an R5 comes first because the target market and revenue opportunity is much greater. But I think you’ll get your R5s later in the year. I imagine the Canon manufacturing lines are chaotic right now.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Do attractive video features fit with 80MP sensors is my point and possibly why after all this time we are getting an R5 rather tha the RS?
> 
> The suggested July release seems like an awfully long time for a totally ready for market camera.
> 
> Or is it July because one (R5) just leap frogged another (RS)?




The fact that that 1DX series and 5D seem to get updated in a more regular 4-ish year cadence while the 5DS has not is some kind of tell. Super high res may not have the userbase to support to more frequent refreshes.

A top-end res bump is coming -- it has to be. When, how much, and if it's only going to be in RF are huge TBDs.

- A


----------



## Kit. (Jan 30, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Why is it that 6-10 MP photos produced some beautiful prints in the past and now they cannot produce beautiful prints?
> Has printing capability gone down that much in the last 10 years?


No, those were just pictures of cats.

For landscapes, you were better off shooting Reala or Astia.


----------



## Durf (Jan 30, 2020)

With all these new camera's coming out the only one I was waiting on was a 7D Mark iii


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

slclick said:


> New Rumor: Canon EOS R6
> 
> 
> It appears as if Canon is going to put a 5 and 6 series camera bodies out for the EOS RF mount to mimic what they have on the EF mount. It really does speak to the fact hat the EOS R and RP were possibly simply stopgaps until Canon got everything moving in the same direction for mirrorless...
> ...




What is a Nikon Z5? 

I think that's a typo.

- A


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 30, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Canonrumor and forums say EOS Rs come is February 2020 for the last 10 months.........
> 
> Reading R5 specs, I think Canon are seeing their mirrorless is the future of mainstream video cameras and high resolution stills doesn't fit with that philosophy.


I think what Canon has figured out, finally, is that there is a whole new generation of photographers coming into the market these days that grew up in a video world. It makes good business sense to address their wants at the same time they hang on to the older and legacy Canon stills shooters. If anything, the demand for high-end video is driving a lot of the stills camera tech, to our benefit. And I think that’s a good thing for us all. The video capabilities clearly push the hardware — sensor and processing — envelop to everyone’s benefit and the rest is mostly software coding. Building it all into a single body likely reduces the end price by increasing the economies of scale. Look at what we are getting today v 5-10 years ago at about the same price and less. Canon can’t afford to simply ride out with the last generation of shooters (including me). If I were a shareholder, I’d be thrilled with these new developments.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> What is a Nikon Z5?
> 
> I think that's a typo.
> 
> - A


50?


----------



## Lenscracker (Jan 30, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Please ask your sources about the likelihood of a flippy-floppy screen.


----------



## Architect1776 (Jan 30, 2020)

Kit. said:


> No, those were just pictures of cats.
> 
> For landscapes, you were better off shooting Reala or Astia.



So the D100 was incapable of doing landscapes?
Interesting concept.


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Do attractive video features fit with 80MP sensors is my point and possibly why after all this time we are getting an R5 rather tha the RS?
> 
> The suggested July release seems like an awfully long time for a totally ready for market camera.
> 
> Or is it July because one (R5) just leap frogged another (RS)?



Yeah, I think the R5 moved ahead of the RS on the release timeline. It's intended for a much broader market than the RS, and (with Canon's statement from their recent financial report in mind) the R5 will cover more ground in regaining market share in the mirrorless space.

My hunch is that the RS was initially going to come first because it has been so long since the 5DS was released. From a product refresh perspective, it makes sense that it would be next. From a serious-about-recapturing-marketshare perspective, though, the R5 and R6 (especially as-rumored) have become an urgent priority.

I'm convinced an RS is still coming -- and likely this year (I just can't see Canon letting Sony wear the resolution crown much longer)...


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2020)

Lenscracker said:


> Please ask your sources about the likelihood of a flippy-floppy screen.



+1

(Not sure if you're hoping it has one or doesn't, but knowing which is important to both of us.)


----------



## per.farny (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> What is a Nikon Z5?
> 
> I think that's a typo.
> 
> - A


Rumored.
Z50 body, 24MP FF, 4k/30, No IBIS, 1 slot, ~$1,500.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 30, 2020)

Durf said:


> With all these new camera's coming out the only one I was waiting on was a 7D Mark iii


I think you may be waiting a long time. Maybe forever. Just because there is a 1DX3 or 5D4 or 7D2 doesn’t mean there has to be a 1DX4 or 5D5 or 7D3. New things happen. The market moves on and it changes. Successful businesses adapt or disappear.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon releases 5D4 at $3300ish. Canon releases 5DS at about the same price.




The 5-series is almost defined as 1) being an FF ILC and 2) costing around $3500:
​5D: 3299​5D2: 2699​5D3: 3499​5DS: 3699​5DSR: 3899 ​5D4: 3299​
They refresh the 5D line every 4 years with new tech -- as if by design -- to reclaim that price point.

My hypothesis is that the R5 *is* the 5D5 (two cams, same specs), and both will be made available at more or less that $3499 point. I could be wrong.

- A


----------



## Kjsheldo (Jan 30, 2020)

Well, like it or not, in the professional world, photographers are losing jobs and places that used to staff photographers no longer do, but video jobs are exploding - and many of them are on the lower-end of the professional world (internal video teams for business, small 2-3 person production companies, social media teams, news documentary makers, Youtube channels, etc) and those people use mirrorless cameras. And many of them use GH5s, A7-series, Fuji XT3, etc. Yes, Canon DSLRs and EOS R are out there, but not nearly as many as the manufacturers that have been hitting mirrorless video hard for 5+ years.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

per.farny said:


> Rumored.
> Z50 body, 24MP FF, 4k/30, No IBIS, 1 slot, ~$1,500.




Ah. The D610 resurfaces at long last -- but only in mirrorless. Make sense.

- A


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> This chart shows 5Ds lags 1.1 stops behind 5DIV and 1.9 (!) stops from A7RIV.



We were discussing high ISO performance, not base ISO DR.



> 1/3 or even 2/3 stop improvement won't be enough to take me in tbh. If it's at least as good as 5DIV it'll be ok, but otherwise I'll probably switch to Sony...



With regard to base ISO DR: can you show us, with real world photographs, what the difference on that chart means to the human eye?

For the record I imagine the R5 will have similar base ISO DR to the 5D IV. Canon's 5D IV sensor is capable of matching the best Sony/Nikon sensors on DR but loses about 1 stop due to the dual pixel AF configuration. This is why you can take a dual pixel RAW and extend DR by about 1ev.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I just cannot fathom that Canon would backslide on DR. The 5D4 isn’t really class leading, but it did put a nail in the coffin of the argument that canon “can’t” offer a competitive sensor.




+1. They can't backslide,_ but they sure can stay in neutral_ -- sometimes deliberately -- to keep pricier things more exciting.

"Let's make a new sensor for the 6D2 with new resolution... but leave out that on-chip hotness to [save cost, protect the 5D4, whatever]. 2008 sensor latitude in a new 2016 product? Nice! Profits high-five time! 

But crop sensors that cost much less than the 6D? Whoa now, they *need* that new sensor hotness. We're not monsters."





- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

BillB said:


> Does it really matter beyond 6 or 7 stops of stabilization? At some point it's just about silly magic numbers.




Of course it does! Much like resolution, fps, etc. more is better. Pushing limits is a good thing.

Every stop of IS is one less notch of ISO you need to crank up for low light or one less aperture stop towards wide open you have to use when shooting without a tripod.

Take a handheld nightscape of (say) a city skyline or church interior with a 2.8 zoom. Do you really want to take that at ISO 6400 f/2.8 with just IS when you could take that same shot at ISO 400 f/2.8 (for better DR, noise, etc.) or ISO 6400 f/11 (for sunstars, more working field) now that you have IBIS?

If you are slammed up against the limits of your circumstance in how/when/what you shoot and you can't turn up the lights or use a tripod, IS is certifiable gold -- provided your subect isn't moving.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

Lenscracker said:


> Please ask your sources about the likelihood of a flippy-floppy screen.




I was waiting for someone to ask. 

Theory: R5 gets the tilty-flippy and the identically spec'd 5D5 doesnt (just a touchscreen).

- A


----------



## tron (Jan 30, 2020)

Malm said:


> Hi!
> 
> Don't worry, that's just another of this Brexit lies. At least until the end of 2020 everything will stay the same (OK, some people are kicked out off the EU parliament), but the UK will trade, travel and pay with Europe like before. If grey imports are a good solution is another topic.
> BTW: I don't believe these specifications until Canon confirms them.


What lies? I know that until the end of this year everything will remain the same.
Do you know what import/export limitations between UK and EU will exist or not after the end of this year? Of course I want to believe and and not worry but we will know that in a few months.


----------



## FTb-n (Jan 30, 2020)

So, will high ISO noise mirror that of the 5Ds, 5DIV, 1Dx2, or 1Dx3? (See what I did there...ok, it was small.)


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## tron (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I was waiting for someone to ask.
> 
> Theory: R5 gets the tilty-flippy and the identically spec'd 5D5 doesnt (just a touchscreen).
> 
> - A


Paradoxically I like this thought maybe because having both 5D4 and EOS R I am used to this combination! Not saying right or wrong just used to it!


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

AlP said:


> _"Although we have launched two full-frame mirrorless cameras as well as ten dedicated lenses, our lineup is still insufficient. In order to recover from our late entry into the mirrorless camera market, *we have plans to launch a model that incorporates a newly developed image sensor and image-processing engine that offer even more advanced features.* "_
> Curious if that "model" is going to be the rumoured R5.



Never had a 48MP or 83MP sensor before, so YUP. And this statement is Canon really putting teeth into what they said years back that they were changing the speed at which they react and develop their products. By the end of 2020, Canon will have released a total of 6 RF mount models within a span of about 18-24 months, which is crazy for them (in a good way).


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## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

tron said:


> Paradoxically I like this thought maybe because having both 5D4 and EOS R I am used to this combination! Not saying right or wrong just used to it!




It's also possible *every* ILC Canon makes other than the 1-series gets a tilty-flippy from now on.

The poor PJs need them, too! I see political PJs having the right gear for the Senate/House chambers but end up having to do this in the scrum afterwards. That poor guy's neck -- esp. if he's shooting video!




- A


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> My hypothesis is that the R5 *is* the 5D5 (two cams, same specs), and both will be made available at more or less that $3499 point. I could be wrong.
> 
> - A



No, I agree completely. R5 and 5D5 will both happen and be about the same price. I do however believe that the 5D5 will be the final 5D body


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## deleteme (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> It's also possible *every* ILC Canon makes other than the 1-series gets a tilty-flippy from now on.
> 
> The poor PJs need them, too! I see political PJs having the right gear for the Senate/House chambers but end up having to do this in the scrum afterwards. That poor guy's neck -- esp. if he's shooting video!
> 
> ...


If the R5 has 20fps or 12fps mechanical they won't need no stinkin' 1D series. They will have flippy screen, mad frame rate and great video.


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## tron (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> It's also possible *every* ILC Canon makes other than the 1-series gets a tilty-flippy from now on.
> 
> The poor PJs need them, too! I see political PJs having the right gear for the Senate/House chambers but end up having to do this in the scrum afterwards. That poor guy's neck -- esp. if he's shooting video!
> 
> ...


 But even with a tilty-flipy screen wouldn't the guy have to raise the camera that much and look upwards? Maybe he could hold the camera more vertically and frame just a little easier but that's it.


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## deleteme (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> No, I agree completely. R5 and 5D5 will both happen and be about the same price. I do however believe that the 5D5 will be the final 5D body


It seems like a very risky bet but then Canon is conservative enough to make sure they aren't leaving money on the table. Maybe they will intro a 5F film body while they are at it.


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## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

tron said:


> But even with a tilty-flipy screen wouldn't the guy have to raise the camera that much and look upwards? Maybe he could hold the camera more vertically and frame just a little easier but that's it.




You're right, his neck is hosed either way. 

But he'd be looking normal to / 90d to the screen, at least. He'd have a far better fighting chance to work any touchscreen magic as well.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> If the R5 has 20fps or 12fps mechanical they won't need no stinkin' 1D series. They will have flippy screen, mad frame rate and great video.




Yup. Top-line specs entirely answer all the needs of all photographers everywhere.

The end.

PACK IT UP FOLKS, WE'RE DONE HERE








- A


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## Jasonmc89 (Jan 30, 2020)

snoke said:


> Canonrumor say 4 fullframe EOS mirrorless in 2020.
> 
> Everyone write thinking EOS R5 is only mirrorless camera in 2020.
> 
> ...


Well said


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 30, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Can I provide a hopefully relevant use case here:
> I spent 2 weeks traveling in Bali, remote areas taking portraits of Balinese people in their native environment. Not a small project. 800+ portraits taken in 10 days. Now. I ended up with around 2000 frames on my card. The time, effort and Amount of money That I invested in this project is quite substantial.
> A card failure in this instance would be a catastrophic event for me. Hence I shoot to both card simultaneously. It does not cost me a thing but provides so much needed redundancy.
> I hope it explains.


I understand what you mean, and I apologize for my jokes. But sometimes I just feel so overwhelmed by this growing flood of digital images. In fact, when I go for birding/wildlife in remote areas such as Western Iceland etc. it can happen that I return with a two thousand images on a card from just a single day out there. But I seldom use dual cards despite I have cameras with dual card slots with me (plus e.g. an EOS 3 for film). Maybe I should be more careful, but none of my many Sandisc CF cards has ever failed since 10-15 years I started to use them. The only CF card that died was a Lexar 1000, fortunately not with important images on it, and I never touched any Lexar again since then. But in general, I really try to think more and produce less images. Shooting film in addition to digital media really helps me to get back to the essentials of photography, to think first and then press the button - what most of us have forgotten because of the easyness of digital photography. But, surely, that's my personal take. Everybody is free to find her or his own way. 

So, have always good light, and thanks for your story!


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> It seems like a very risky bet but then Canon is conservative enough to make sure they aren't leaving money on the table. Maybe they will intro a 5F film body while they are at it.


 they would leave a lot of money on the table by NOT making a 5D5. There's still a ton of EF glass out there and it will take a decade or better for pros to fully transition over based on costs alone. They can recycle the SAME body they have used since the 5D3 and slap in the sensor and processing guts of the R5, plus a mirror, pentaprism, and typical DSLR AF system


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## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> they would leave a lot of money on the table by NOT making a 5D5. There's still a ton of EF glass out there and it will take a decade or better for pros to fully transition over based on costs alone. They can recycle the SAME body they have used since the 5D3 and slap in the sensor and processing guts of the R5, plus a mirror, pentaprism, and typical DSLR AF system




Agree. 1-series and 5-series will live on for some time.

But I'm not certain we'll ever see a 6D3 (probably?), 5DS sequel (50-50), 7D3 (grabs collar nervously), next 90D (prob not), etc. The culling of the mirrors is coming, people.

- A


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 30, 2020)

per.farny said:


> As a landscape photographer who prints large, all these last couple of days have done is get me more and more nervous that a high megapixel model (equal to or North of 7RIV) may not come after all this year :/


As a dedicated landscape photographer I'd really go for medium format for very large prints. If you have 50 MP on a 33mm x 44mm sensor, which is currently the standard of (small) digital medium format, you can work with f = 10+ stops to get a big depth of field without losing too much information due to diffraction blur (I know about what I am talking, I am a physicist). Of course, you can re-sharpen such a softness , but this comes with growing artifacts.


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## Kit. (Jan 30, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> So the D100 was incapable of doing landscapes?


1Ds was the first camera that could match DR and color reproduction of 35mm ISO100 film.


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Agree. 1-series and 5-series will live on for some time.
> 
> But I'm not certain we'll ever see a 6D3 (probably?), 5DS sequel (50-50), 7D3 (grabs collar nervously), next 90D (prob not), etc. The culling of the mirrors is coming, people.
> 
> - A


I'm betting NO on a 6D3. I think they also previously signaled NO on a 5DS2. No on 7D3. The 1dx and 5D lines are special animals that their core pro user base is too invested in, hence we will se an extra generation or two of those before they are retired to the Canon Hall of Fame. The 6D 5DS, and 7D all appear to be MILC only lines going forward. At some point we will all the Rebels getting replaced with crop body RF mounts once Canon gets the lower tier RF glass library rounded out, which means we will see am upper priced Crop body RF first I'd imagine (think 90D price range) in order to push the glass introductions, then blast out RF Rebels 6-12 months later. Same as they are doing now with the R


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## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I'm betting NO on a 6D3. I think they also previously signaled NO on a 5DS2. No on 7D3. The 1dx and 5D lines are special animals that their core pro user base is too invested in, hence we will se an extra generation or two of those before they are retired to the Canon Hall of Fame. The 6D 5DS, and 7D all appear to be MILC only lines going forward. At some point we will all the Rebels getting replaced with crop body RF mounts once Canon gets the lower tier RF glass library rounded out, which means we will see am upper priced Crop body RF first I'd imagine (think 90D price range) in order to push the glass introductions, then blast out RF Rebels 6-12 months later. Same as they are doing now with the R




But crop RF in a mainstream (read: not 7D) userbase demands smaller/inexpensive crop image circle RF lenses, like what Sony and Nikon are doing: one mount to rule them all, but you don't need $1000+ to buy two non-L RF lenses for the soccer moms/dads to shoot your family vaca.

Do you think they'll really migrate everything to RF? Because if they do, EF-M isn't really needed anymore. 

Knowing this, they *could* migrate all Rebel types to EF-M and not bring Rebel products or crop image circles lenses into RF, but they still might sneak the 90D or 7D with a crop-sensored RF body. Let 90D and 7D folks grumble about lens prices and glass their sensor will never see, but keep Rebel folks in very tidy little EF-M ecosystem. Might that work?

- A


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## davidhfe (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> +1. They can't backslide,_ but they sure can stay in neutral_ -- sometimes deliberately -- to keep pricier things more exciting.
> 
> "Let's make a new sensor for the 6D2 with new resolution... but leave out that on-chip hotness to [save cost, protect the 5D4, whatever]. 2008 sensor latitude in a new 2016 product? Nice! Profits high-five time!
> 
> ...



The specs don't indicate we're in a 6D2 situation. My bigger point is that the $3000 cameras are all pretty close in terms of real world DR, especially once you leave base iso. Obviously I am hoping that canon managed to find a stop and a half of DR while quadrupling read speed, adding 15mp and holding heat constant. But as long as it's as its any sort of incremental improvement (vs the R, which seems to be slightly worse?) over what the 5D4 offers I don't think it's a huge liability.

The video specs, the lack of IBIS, lack of eye AF and, most importantly, the FPS, are the things where I feel sometimes held back by the 5D4. Any MP and DR improvements are gravy for me, personally, at this point.


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> But crop RF in a mainstream (read: not 7D) userbase demands smaller/inexpensive crop image circle RF lenses, like what Sony and Nikon are doing: one mount to rule them all, but you don't need $1000+ to buy two non-L RF lenses for the soccer moms/dads to shoot your family vaca.
> 
> Do you think they'll really migrate everything to RF? Because if they do, EF-M isn't really needed anymore.
> 
> ...


Well thats what I meant when I said lower tier RF glass. Not only RF but (let's call it) RF-C glass, which we will see come with the first Crop body RF (like an 18-55 crop glass kit lens). And yes, I think they will gradually phase out the EF-M. I can't see a reason why they would keep it long term. It's not like they ever really made a LOT of EFM glass anyway, so why start now?


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I've printed 52 inch long-edge with 12MP images and they look great.


Do they though?


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## davidhfe (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> But crop RF in a mainstream (read: not 7D) userbase demands smaller/inexpensive crop image circle RF lenses, like what Sony and Nikon are doing: one mount to rule them all, but you don't need $1000+ to buy two non-L RF lenses for the soccer moms/dads to shoot your family vaca.
> 
> Do you think they'll really migrate everything to RF? Because if they do, EF-M isn't really needed anymore.
> 
> ...



I am really glad I'm not in charge of figure out canon's crop product line. My guess is they haven't figured it out and are waiting for the market to tell them what to do:
- Keep a separate crop system in EF-M, and lose out on seamless upgrades.
- Wring as much out of the EF-S system as possible. $349 DSLRs with $99 kit lenses sold at Costco.
- Get RF FF prices down as much as possible. Launch an RF-S line if they can't get "Costco" prices on full frame gear.

Maybe the Rebel->XXD->6D pipeline is just dead from canon's point of view and they need to focus on margins at the high end and selling a quality system (M) at the low end. Again, I suspect that not even canon has this answer right now.


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## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> As a dedicated landscape photographer I'd really go for medium format for very large prints. If you have 50 MP on a 33mm x 44mm sensor, which is currently the standard of (small) digital medium format, you can work with f = 10+ stops to get a big depth of field without losing to much information due to diffraction blur (I know about what I am talking, I am a physicist). Of course, you can re-sharpen such a softness , but this comes with growing artifacts.




There are techniques for getting around diffraction (focus stacking your compositions comes to mind), but I'm sure they must be trouble with wind, water, long exposures, etc.

If you are a dedicated landscaper, I would imagine its a case of migrating to MF or just bringing your glass to a new mount. If you all you need is a sensor, go put great glass on a great sensor.

Adapting to the A7R4 rather than migrating to MF would certainly be the practical half-step towards what you need. Moving to MF (in comparison) is a financial cliff, and some of those companies are not on robust financial ground. I'd hate to invest in a platform that isn't around before too long. 

- A


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## dtaylor (Jan 30, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> As a dedicated landscape photographer I'd really go for medium format for very large prints. If you have 50 MP on a 33mm x 44mm sensor, which is currently the standard of (small) digital medium format, you can work with f = 10+ stops to get a big depth of field without losing to much information due to diffraction blur (I know about what I am talking, I am a physicist). Of course, you can re-sharpen such a softness , but this comes with growing artifacts.



Diffraction blur does not impact any format more than another for the same FoV and DoF. (Note that I said FoV and DoF, not focal length and aperture.) A tilt lens is how you can traditionally achieve greater DoF without a diffraction penalty. So when comparing two formats strictly based on DoF you're looking at availability of tilt lenses, not sensor size. Large format's huge advantage here is that most cameras by nature allow tilt, which is why people attach MF backs to view cameras.


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## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I've printed 52 inch long-edge with 12MP images and they look great.





Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Do they though?


For home use (viewing distance limited) I have printed 20x30 from 5D Mark III output. Maybe I could have gone bigger and they would have looked good. I don't know. From my old XSi (12mp) the photos were not that great at 20x30. Even from the 5D mark III, I think 40x60 would have been really pushing it for IQ. 28' long would require a lot of stitching of many images if you ask me.


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## per.farny (Jan 30, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> As a dedicated landscape photographer I'd really go for medium format for very large prints. If you have 50 MP on a 33mm x 44mm sensor, which is currently the standard of (small) digital medium format, you can work with f = 10+ stops to get a big depth of field without losing too much information due to diffraction blur (I know about what I am talking, I am a physicist). Of course, you can re-sharpen such a softness , but this comes with growing artifacts.



Good point. That said, given my investment in Canon glass and satisfaction with their bodies all up over the years, it'd be nice if they could just put out a higher MP model with great DR


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## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Of course it does! Much like resolution, fps, etc. more is better. Pushing limits is a good thing.
> 
> Every stop of IS is one less notch of ISO you need to crank up for low light or one less aperture stop towards wide open you have to use when shooting without a tripod.
> 
> ...


I'd love to hear more about how Olympus says the rotation of the Earth limits the amount of stops of stabilization can be added.


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## sulla (Jan 30, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Do they though?


Oh yes, they do, if shot properly. I found prints from my 5D1 (13 MP) very acceptable in A0 (47x33", 1m²), had them in exhibits without a thought. Albeit, you should refrain from cropping too heavily in post, but then, I said "shot properly".
You don't approach such prints with a loupe, do you?


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## Shakey (Jan 30, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> About time canon
> 2020 is gonna be a good year
> 
> and for the boomers that don’tthink mirrorless is the future well...


Great. Now that you know the "future" can you please pass on any lottery numbers that you can for see


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Right, and when you amplify the signal and keep the noise the same, SNR goes up.



The noise is the part of the signal you amplify. You can't selectively amplify wanted but not unwanted signal (noise).

Maybe you mean the read noise only happens after analog amplification (gain) and before ADC? It's not like that by definition of the read noise as it happens in all circuits before amplification. What part of read noise happens _after_ amplification and before ADC I don't know, perhaps not to much.
But anyway this process can't reduce the read noise, it can only increase it because at least part of it will be amplified. Signal to noise ratio may be improved though. 

However back to the original question, larger pixels have better DR given other factors are the same and I don't think you were able to disprove it.



Lee Jay said:


> It's less noisy because read noise is reduced - exactly what I've been telling you all along.



As above, the read noise can't be reduced by increasing ISO. Relative to signal noise potentially can be. But in terms of DR, that effect will be small because DR drops 1 stop every time you multiply ISO by 2.


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> There are techniques for getting around diffraction (focus stacking your compositions comes to mind), but I'm sure they must be trouble with wind, water, long exposures, etc.
> 
> If you are a dedicated landscaper, I would imagine its a case of migrating to MF or just bringing your glass to a new mount. If you all you need is a sensor, go put great glass on a great sensor.
> 
> ...


Focus stacking surely is possible, but really only in very static settings. Great glass will not solve the basic problem caused by physics: the fact that light has a wave nature (a particle one also) and therefore tends to run around the edges of small apertures - just like water waves coming through a tight opening in a harbour surrounded by quay walls. This causes image points, that are theoretically needle pin sharp according to the simple geometrical optics model, to blossom out to small discs, so-called Airy discs. As soon as such an Airy disc is bigger than a sensor pixel, the image starts to soften. The smaller a pixel is, the early happens that, what means that may already have to stick to low numberf-stop ranges with extremely high MP 35mm sensors, if you want to utilize their maximum resolution. No lens can save you from that effect. You can only try to get some visually (!) sharper looking result by digital post-processing, but this cannot recover lost information. You can find this problem in many classic photography textbooks btw, but most of them are forgotten today. 

No, I am no dedicated landscape photographer, I meant I would go for digital medium format if I would be one. In fact, I prefer to use my medium format film camera when I plan to go for landscape only. With its huge 6cm x 6cm image area I can shoot at f=22 on a tripod without caring about any visible diffraction blur - even with a very fine grained film. But that's aside this thread here... let's return to Canon's latest and very thrilling statements


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## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

per.farny said:


> Good point. That said, given my investment in Canon glass and satisfaction with their bodies all up over the years, it'd be nice if they could just put out a higher MP model with great DR




...even if it has so many pixels you have to shoot everything in the f/4 to f/5.6 range to put them to good use? 

I'm not a (pro) landscaper and I'm not a physicist, so I ask the team: there comes a point with even the best glass in the world and highest res sensor, stopping down too far can diminish your final resolution, correct?

Maybe I'm not articulating this correctly -- I'll try this: Say I'm shooting f/11 or f/14 for some seaside landscape shot. If I want to shoot stopped down like that, I'm eventually going to hit some 'sharpness asymptote' where more pixels behind that lens won't get much sharper... right?

Educate me, I mean it.

- A


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 30, 2020)

sulla said:


> Oh yes, they do, if shot properly. I found prints from my 5D1 (13 MP) very acceptable in A0 (47x33", 1m²), had them in exhibits without a thought. Albeit, you should refrain from cropping too heavily in post, but then, I said "shot properly".
> You don't approach such prints with a loupe, do you?


That's great to read, and that's exactly what always is stunning for me. Wen my wife makes big prints of their images shot with their old 12 MP crop and FF Nikons, the results show amazingly rich details, you can see every tiny bit like fine wool hairs etc. High MP numbers are really overrated, at least if you don't to crop heavily. That's why I am personally very exited about the rumors that Canon's R6 will only have 20 MP, I really hope for a low-light beast. My 20 MP 5D3 is now 8 years old and old tech. A new camera should be much less noisy, offer a huge leap in low-light IQ - and dynamic range, of course, in all ISO's.


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## SteB1 (Jan 30, 2020)

I thought the 8K RAW meant these were the usual fantasy specifications. Now they are CR3 without this part. These specs are just about in the realm of the possible. The IS if true would be as good if not better Olympus IBIS, which is the best. What to make of it. We'll soon find out. Certainly Canon has big plans from the lenses it's been churning out for the RF mount. So maybe they're really going to push the boat out and throw everything but the kitchen sink in.


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 30, 2020)

per.farny said:


> Good point. That said, given my investment in Canon glass and satisfaction with their bodies all up over the years, it'd be nice if they could just put out a higher MP model with great DR


What I really love about Canon's prosumer/pro gear is its rugged quality. I do a lot of wildlife, and my gear always worked. My wife's comparable Nikon gear caused much more trouble, in fact the most reliable parts are not from Nikon but e.g. from Sigma


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## reefroamer (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> But crop RF in a mainstream (read: not 7D) userbase demands smaller/inexpensive crop image circle RF lenses, like what Sony and Nikon are doing: one mount to rule them all, but you don't need $1000+ to buy two non-L RF lenses for the soccer moms/dads to shoot your family vaca.
> 
> Do you think they'll really migrate everything to RF? Because if they do, EF-M isn't really needed anymore.
> 
> ...


My guess is there will be a top-to-bottom range of RF bodies and lenses in a complete range of prices. Full-frame economies of scale will drive crop sensor cameras and lenses out of all but special-case markets such as EOS M, which has a size-weight/value proposition appeal that can’t yet be replicated with bigger sensors. I predict you’ll see low-end RF bodies kitted with inexpensive RF zoom lenses well under $1,000 within 12 months. Of course, I could be completely wrong. It’s happened before.


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## dtaylor (Jan 30, 2020)

justaCanonuser said:


> With its huge 6cm x 6cm image area I can shoot at f=22 on a tripod without caring about any visible diffraction blur - even with a very fine grained film.



Once again: diffraction does not affect one format more than another for the same FoV and DoF. You'll note that the "diffraction may become visible" apertures are roughly equivalent between 35mm and 645 in terms of DoF. As an example, for a subject at 10ft they are 3.78ft to infinity vs 4.02ft to infinity. The small difference is only because focal lengths and aperture stops are not absolutely matched for the difference in format size. (f-stops are typically available in 1/2 or 1/3 increments, and lenses aren't offered in fractions of a mm focal length.)

f/22 on 6x6 would be equivalent to roughly f/13 on 35mm, and at a resolution of 50mp both would show roughly the same minor diffraction effects. If you're fighting diffraction your options are stacking or tilt. Larger formats don't help.


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## Aaron Lozano (Jan 30, 2020)

dwarven said:


> In what area of photography is 45MP considered low? Are you trying to make wall sized prints or what.


I usually stack pictures for extra detail. Can get files of up to 1GP in size (the normal is between 100 to 150MP) the larger the amount of MP the better for my preference. 

If I can get the same detail with half the amount of pictures, I'm a happy camper.


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## amorse (Jan 30, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> For home use (viewing distance limited) I have printed 20x30 from 5D Mark III output. Maybe I could have gone bigger and they would have looked good. I don't know. From my old XSi (12mp) the photos were not that great at 20x30. Even from the 5D mark III, I think 40x60 would have been really pushing it for IQ. 28' long would require a lot of stitching of many images if you ask me.


I just ordered a 20x30 metal print of the below image from my 5DIV, but the image was cropped in to ~23 or 25mp. I had wanted to go bigger but just wasn't confident that it would show as well as I had wanted. It's definitely not uncommon for me to print at 24x36 or even bigger so I'm certainly keen for more resolution. How this comes out will no doubt influence whether or not I think 45MP is enough for my uses!


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## transpo1 (Jan 30, 2020)

If those features are true, it might bring me back to Canon. Top attractive features are:

4K 60p (with little to no crop)
4K 120p (also 1080 120p with no crop is a must)
Scroll wheel added back

If accurate, I'd buy this body and adapt all my underused EF lenses. May even sell my Fuji


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## jedy (Jan 30, 2020)

MirrorlessRumors claim to have legit specs for a EOS-R6. Looks like a 6D successor. Canon really need to start releasing some non-L glass if they want to sell this camera. I doubt many EOS-R6 buyers would be in the market for expensive-L glass. We’re hearing lots about cameras but nothing on decent, affordable non-L glass - nifty fifty?









Conflicting Canon rumors solved....there is indeed a second EOS-R camera with no 8K and lower resolution sensor named EOS-R6! - mirrorlessrumors


As you may know days ago I told you trusted sources said the EOS-R camera they knew about had no 8K and a lower resolutions sensor. CR reported that the EOS-RS (later named EOS-R5) had 8K and a high resolution camera. So I thought CR rumor was wrong….but the mystery is officially solved! This...




www.mirrorlessrumors.com


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## Viggo (Jan 30, 2020)

My guess is that a 50 f1.4 medium priced will come along sooner rather than later with the R5 or R6.


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## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

jedy said:


> MirrorlessRumors claim to have legit specs for a EOS-R6. Looks like a 6D successor. Canon really need to start releasing some non-L glass if they want to sell this camera. I doubt many EOS-R6 buyers would be in the market for expensive-L glass. We’re hearing lots about cameras but nothing on decent, affordable non-L glass - nifty fifty?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is one higher end lens which I see on most 6D series bodies, the 24-105L. Rightly so. In fact just about 75% of every 5/6 series body has one mounted. Your geography may vary.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

amorse said:


> I just ordered a 20x30 metal print of the below image from my 5DIV, but the image was cropped in to ~23 or 25mp. I had wanted to go bigger but just wasn't confident that it would show as well as I had wanted. It's definitely not uncommon for me to print at 24x36 or even bigger so I'm certainly keen for more resolution. How this comes out will no doubt influence whether or not I think 45MP is enough for my uses!
> View attachment 188426




Wow. New Jersey is spectacular, isn't it?

- A


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## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

amorse said:


> I just ordered a 20x30 metal print of the below image from my 5DIV, but the image was cropped in to ~23 or 25mp. I had wanted to go bigger but just wasn't confident that it would show as well as I had wanted. It's definitely not uncommon for me to print at 24x36 or even bigger so I'm certainly keen for more resolution. How this comes out will no doubt influence whether or not I think 45MP is enough for my uses!
> View attachment 188426


Beautiful!


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## KeithBreazeal (Jan 30, 2020)

I am hoping that the new R whatever will have the minimum specs I am looking for. I am not looking for something earth shattering,(although that would be nice) but a smaller, lighter system than the 5D IV & 5Ds. I bought the M5 and it got me hooked on mirrorless. I didn't expect the IQ to be so good on this little body, but it is now my "carry at all times" camera now. I have made several 24x36 prints from the M5 and I am quite pleased. Can't wait to see what new R bodies have to offer.
Sample M5 photo that was printed 24x36:


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## robinlee (Jan 30, 2020)

I am in Tokyo 27th Feb, should I spare sometime to attend this show


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## jedy (Jan 30, 2020)

slclick said:


> There is one higher end lens which I see on most 6D series bodies, the 24-105L. Rightly so. In fact just about 75% of every 5/6 series body has one mounted. Your geography may vary.


Lenses like the 24-105mm f4 and to a lesser extent the 70-200mm f4 were popular lenses because you could get L quality for well below $1000. The 24-105mm RF is over $1000. People bought the 6D as they couldn’t afford the 5DIII and or didn’t need the extra features. I expect the R6 to be a tough sell for quite a few without some more affordable glass.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> The noise is the part of the signal you amplify.



The shot noise is, the read noise isn't.



> Maybe you mean the read noise only happens after analog amplification (gain) and before ADC? It's not like that by definition of the read noise as it happens in all circuits before amplification.



No, that's not true. The read noise is actually several components, some of which are after amplification. That's why the read noise goes down when you increase ISO.



> However back to the original question, larger pixels have better DR given other factors are the same and I don't think you were able to disprove it.



Yes, I was. I showed that the Powershot S120 has higher DR than the 1Dx, despite WAY smaller pixels.

Ask yourself this question. If well capacity is everything, then why is the inventor of our sensors working on ways to build sensors with a well capacity of 1 electron? Wouldn't that be entirely counter-productive if you were right?









QIS | Gigajot Technology | Pasadena


Gigajot Technology invented the Quanta Image Sensor (QIS), marking the dawn of a new era in solid-state imaging.




www.gigajot.tech





The answer is simple - you are wrong.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 30, 2020)

Question. If you don't care at all about video, what does this supposed camera offer for the still shooter? It seems like not all that much.


----------



## Trey T (Jan 30, 2020)

richperson said:


> We have never seen cropped fps in a 5D before, why would they start now? Remember how big the bugger on the 1DXiii is. More likely that the R5 gets a smaller buffer--12fps mechanical shutter for about 100 shots before buffer max--than it would be they would slow down the fps.


We have never seen a feature to crop the sensor until the EOS R (and RP). Based on those evidence, it's more likely than not that the crop feature will carry forward. The new sony A7R can do 1.1 burst of 10fps @ 60mp. If you know the technology of the R5 (and Sony's tech), you can likely interpolate linearly to see if 12fps is likely for the 45mp.

also, Canon is very very careful about their camera (and video camera) business line-up.


----------



## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

jedy said:


> Lenses like the 24-105mm f4 and to a lesser extent the 70-200mm f4 were popular lenses because you could get L quality for well below $1000. The 24-105mm RF is over $1000. People bought the 6D as they couldn’t afford the 5DIII and or didn’t need the extra features. I expect the R6 to be a tough sell for quite a few without some more affordable glass.


The adapted EF line lessens the blow quite a bit, we are actually quite lucky this is such a beautiful marriage.


----------



## richperson (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Question. If you don't care at all about video, what does this supposed camera offer for the still shooter? It seems like not all that much.



Well, maybe not for everyone, but for me:

1) ability to shoot high res photos at a reasonable fps to capture sports/dance/theater;
2) hopefully, an EVF experience that doesn't black out or freeze at 12 fps;
3) a silent EVF mirrorless with controls that match up with my 1DXii
4) hopefully, a mirrorless camera that can be used for real sports in lowish light, but still allow signficant cropping if needed.


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## davidhfe (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Question. If you don't care at all about video, what does this supposed camera offer for the still shooter? It seems like not all that much.



I think I need to create a macro for this:

- A 1.5x improvement in resolution over the previous generation
- A 1.5x improvement in frames per second when using a mechanical shutter
- A doubling of frames per second when using an electronic shutter
- An electronic shutter that can be used with a viewfinder for silent shooting in event situations
- A stabilization that works without stabilized lenses and works in conjunction with those that are already stabilized
- New autofocus modes allowing for nearly 100% frame coverage, eye detect. The 1DX3's "live view" AF appears to be great.
- Likely updated card slot formats for faster read and write (faster transfer into Lightroom or whatever!)
- Revisions to the ergonomics and handling of the camera
- Probably canon's new AA filter as well.
- Access to THE BEST LENS MOUNT in photography, while retaining 100% backwards compatibility with the previous BEST MOUNT in photography

Look, if there's nothing in there that sounds like it's worth $3500, that's totally cool. I know plenty of folks whose shooting style works with TriX 400 on manual bodies. Darkroom developed, outstanding results. It's great if you don't want/need the above features, but that spec list is beyond incremental even if it had NO video features. Literally every item above is something I wanted ~before~ purchasing my 5D4.

And again, things like dynamic range do not usually make spec lists that get leaked. There very well may be improvements to IQ here as well.

"Not all that much" SMDH


----------



## Trankilstef (Jan 30, 2020)

As I said in another thread I talked to a Canon rep on tuesday and he told me that on the video side the announcement that will come in February (he told me specifically before March) will have me happier than ever. I was telling him that I loved the EOS R on the stills part but on the video though it is better than advertised all across the internet, it lacks some really important things. And he smiled, really confidently, and told me to not worry at all, to just wait for the next announcement.
Then today I spoke with a Canon Ambassador, over 30mn on the phone. We talked about her next projects etc and I couldn't help myself to ask for vice, i know she's one of the early professional adopters of the EOS R, and I told her I wanted to buy a second body, I was waiting for the next iteration of the R line, but was hesitant to not buy right now a second EOS R. She just told me this : "you better wait! I signed a NDA so I can't tell nothing but you really better wait. Something big is coming" She insisted on the "Big"... I speak to some Canon reps or this ambassador from time to time and got some insights sometime. But never, never I saw them this confident about a coming product. 
So yes, something really big is coming, and I think it will be a game changer.


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## richperson (Jan 30, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I think I need to create a macro for this:
> 
> - A 1.5x improvement in resolution over the previous generation
> - A 1.5x improvement in frames per second when using a mechanical shutter
> ...



Better list than mine. I don't use stabilization much, but when I'm shooting at night with the 28-70mm f/2 the IBIS will be wonderful. Can't wait.


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## PGSanta (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Question. If you don't care at all about video, what does this supposed camera offer for the still shooter? It seems like not all that much.



- The jump from 30 to 45 MP.
- Dual card slots.
- IBIS.
- Better weather sealing.
- Faster/better processing.
- Better ergos and the elimination of the MF bar.
- Better EVF (though mention of this has disappeared from the new rumors).

That doesn't seem like much to you? Ok.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> ...even if it has so many pixels you have to shoot everything in the f/4 to f/5.6 range to put them to good use?
> 
> I'm not a (pro) landscaper and I'm not a physicist, so I ask the team: there comes a point with even the best glass in the world and highest res sensor, stopping down too far can diminish your final resolution, correct?
> 
> ...


Correct. Diffraction happens at a certain aperture based on pixel size. Simply put, diffraction will begin to creep in at larger and larger apertures the smaller and smaller (more and more) your pixels get. So when we have been shooting at say 25MP or less for a decade on average, we always talk about diffraction starting to hit around f11 - f16. When the 5DS came out with 50MP, we were talking about diffraction starting to creep in around f8. So in theory we can expect about the same on the R5 with 48MP. Fast Forward to this rumored 83MP thing... and you can see where this going. Where my understanding ends is whether or not the AA filter itself (remember it basically diffuses light) has much if any impact and in turn, will this new AA filter Canon has developed for the DX3 (and presumably on future R models as well) have any impact on extending the range of the f stops beyond where we would suppose diffraction would normally come in on 83 MP (f4 -5.6??)


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

Diffraction Calculator | PhotoPills


This diffraction calculator will help you assess when the camera is diffraction limited.




www.photopills.com


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Question. If you don't care at all about video, what does this supposed camera offer for the still shooter? It seems like not all that much.


I went from the 5D Mark III to the R. I'm purely stills. If I didn't already have the R then this would be the upgrade I'd be salivating over. If I had the money, this would be my next body buy with the R as a backup. For me, the main reason is the megapixels that would give me the luxury of making different crops of an image, beyond the original image I wanted, for different "looks" without sacrificing IQ should I want to make large crops. Yes, I could go after those images in the first place, however, I might not have thought of them at the time I was taking the photos. But I am just a hobbyist that likes to fiddle around with files.


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

WHat's nice about that particular calculator is that it shows at what point diffraction become apparent not only under digital pixel peeping but also in PRINT, which of course is virtually undetectable. So it all depends on how you present your finished shot.


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

jedy said:


> MirrorlessRumors claim to have legit specs for a EOS-R6. Looks like a 6D successor. Canon really need to start releasing some non-L glass if they want to sell this camera. I doubt many EOS-R6 buyers would be in the market for expensive-L glass. We’re hearing lots about cameras but nothing on decent, affordable non-L glass - nifty fifty?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seems like basically the same rumor Craig posted about the R6 a day or two ago. Obviously it won't have 8K. Didn't think that was ever a question. It takes almost 40 MP in a 2:3 shaped sensor to capture 8K, and everything we knew on rumor day 1 of the R6 said 20MP.


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

richperson said:


> Better list than mine. I don't use stabilization much, but when I'm shooting at night with the 28-70mm f/2 the IBIS will be wonderful. Can't wait.



I promise you if/when you ever start shoot with close to 50MP, you will be banging your head into the walls next to your computer if you didn't either use a tripod, super fast shutter speeds, or at the very least a well stabilized lens. Having IBIS plus lens IS will finally make these high MP cameras usable in the real world (handheld and whatnot) because right now I wouldn't dare try another shot on my 5DSR without at least one of those three things I mentioned first. Tripod or monopod is ALWAYS with my 5DSR, and I have sacrificed a preferred lens choice for a shot to use another one just because the other one had IS


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I know.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't consider it art unless you start with nothing, like the composer and a blank sheet of music, a sculptor with a block of marble, a painter with a blank canvas, or a sculptor with a lump of clay. Using technology to record what's already there is a skill or craft, not an art. It's the difference between the composer of a piece of music and the audio technician who records the performance in the studio. The audio technician isn't an artist. He has to have skill and that skill matters a lot for the final result, I just wouldn't call it art because it's not being created from nothing, just recorded. Like photography.



The composer starts with a piano or other instruments (technology). The performing artist must provide interpretive processes to what the composer put down on paper. It's not music until there is sound in the air. Likewise, the selection of which block of marble one starts with will affect the final outcome of the sculpture, what the size and properties of the canvas are will affect the painters' decisions, and the type/consistency of the lump of clay affects what can be made with it.

But beyond that, none of that art is created ex nihilo in a vacuum. The artist brings all that they have seen, heard, tasted, felt, experienced, to the table when they create. No one starts with a "blank sheet of paper."

You seem totally ignorant of the possibility that photography may include a scene that was created and arranged by the photographer for the specific purpose of creating that photograph, and lit only by light that was created and shaped by the photographer. Contrary to your limited idea of what one can do with photography, there are photographers who don't just find something that already exists and snap a photo of it under whatever light is already illuminating it.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> You don't get lower noise from going to lower pixel counts, you get lower noise from going to a larger sensor and preserving the same f-stop.



Or by increasing quantum efficiency.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Question. If you don't care at all about video, what does this supposed camera offer for the still shooter? It seems like not all that much.




If specs are true, treating this as the future upgrade for 5D4 users (I contend R5 and 5D5 will have these same specs):

IBIS -- huge for me (I shoot in low light often, so I read this as virtual speed to lower my ISO)
Huge bump in res
Huge bump in mechanical fps, throughput, etc.
Hilarious bump in fps with the e-shutter
Most likely a tilty-flippy touchscreen, which is quite useful for stills
Manual focusing tools (the 5D line no longer offers focusing screen changeouts)
And we still don't know if we'll get a new sensor architecture, new focusing tools, what kind of buffer we'll see, onboard tech for timelapse or stacking, etc.

So not much to see here for stills folks, nooooo. 

- A


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## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I know. I think they're all wrong.



There's nothing wrong with you,Lee Jay. It's everyone else in the entire world that is all screwed up.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> So a musician isn't a musician unless he builds his own piano, right?



And creates his own scale and theory of harmony instead of copying the same tired old 12-note chromatic scale that has been used in Western music for millenia...


----------



## bluediablo (Jan 30, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The composer starts with a piano or other instruments (technology). The performing artist must provide interpretive processes to what the composer put down on paper. It's not music until there is sound in the air. Likewise, the selection of which block of marble one starts with will affect the final outcome of the sculpture, what the size and properties of the canvas are will affect the painters' decisions, and the type/consistency of the lump of clay affects what can be made with it.
> 
> But beyond that, none of that art is created ex nihilo in a vacuum. The artist brings all that they have seen, heard, tasted, felt, experienced, to the table when they create. No one starts with a "blank sheet of paper."
> 
> You seem totally ignorant of the possibility that photography may include a scene that was created and arranged by the photographer for the specific purpose of creating that photograph, and lit only by light that was created and shaped by the photographer. Contrary to your limited idea of what one can do with photography, there are photographers who don't just find something that already exists and snap a photo of it under whatever light is already illuminating it.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Ummm... Compression when recording a raw video? I think the entire idea behind raw video is that there is no compression taking place. That's what I'm asking... People seem to be unable to believe that a camera could ever handle this level of video, but my question is what does the camera really need to "process" when you're shooting a raw format. My thought is that raw video recording may be less taxing on the processing power of a camera than recording to a compressed format.




Pretty much all raw formats compress data. The question is do they compress it in a lossy or lossless way?


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## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Question. If you don't care at all about video, what does this supposed camera offer for the still shooter? It seems like not all that much.




LJ's question is so out there, I'll flip it around:

*From what we know, if the R5 as spec'd here is real and it's in that 5-series neighborhood and price, can anyone name the last time an existing Canon product line (of any level) was sequeled/upgraded this comprehensively from a stills perspective? *

Compared to the 5D4:

IBIS​50% increase in resolution​71% increase in burst with mechanical shutter​185% increase in burst with e-shutter​MF assist features​Tilty-flippy (presumed)​
Has Canon ever launched such a compelling sequel for stills shooters? Even with everything we still don't know about this camera, I can't think of a prior release that drops the mic this hard over what it is replacing.

- A


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Yes, but ... Are you saying Canon can’t make or buy something faster? Limits are broken every day in tech. Business considerations aside, I don’t think there’s any reason Canon can't obtain that performance or better.



Don't RED cameras use active cooling, though? That's space and power consumption that a mirrorless camera like the Canon R series does not have available.


----------



## richperson (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I promise you if/when you ever start shoot with close to 50MP, you will be banging your head into the walls next to your computer if you didn't either use a tripod, super fast shutter speeds, or at the very least a well stabilized lens. Having IBIS plus lens IS will finally make these high MP cameras usable in the real world (handheld and whatnot) because right now I wouldn't dare try another shot on my 5DSR without at least one of those three things I mentioned first. Tripod or monopod is ALWAYS with my 5DSR, and I have sacrificed a preferred lens choice for a shot to use another one just because the other one had IS



No doubt. I had a Nikon friend (oxymoron?) who bought a high MP body and he told me many times how actually disappointing it was because it was almost impossible to get sharp pictures without a tripod. 5 stops plus my 28-70mm would be very welcome.


----------



## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> LJ's question is so out there, I'll flip it around:
> 
> *From what we know, if the R5 as spec'd here is real and it's in that 5-series neighborhood and price, can anyone name the last time an existing Canon product line (of any level) was sequeled/upgraded this comprehensively from a stills perspective? *
> 
> ...


All of this is why this is the sequel my 5D3 and yours I assume AS. The 5D4 would have been a stopgap, to me...I'm not speaking for the industry, just my desires and needs, but still , akin to how the R is in the FF mirrorless world for Canon's entry.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> If you build everything in the scene, that's art. If there's a person in it (or a plant, or other naturally-occurring object), then it's not, it's craft, skill and technique, like an audio recording technician who creates the acoustics of the room, selects the microphones and their locations, arranges the levels, equalization and effects, records and later mixes the sound. That's a highly-skilled task, but it's not art by my definition.
> 
> From wikipedia:
> 
> ...



So by your own definition, any painting that contains a depiction that the creator saw in the "real" world before they painted it is not real art? Any painting that contains a person, animal, flower, mountain, meadow, cloud, etc. is not "real" art? Because it is merely the creator's interpretation of something else that already existed?


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> One is created from the imagination, one is captured from nature. Even though that capture could be done with considerable skill and technique, I wouldn't call it art.



It's obvious you have no idea what "imagination" is.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

slclick said:


> All of this is why this is the sequel my 5D3 and yours I assume AS. The 5D4 would have been a stopgap, to me...I'm not speaking for the industry, just my desires and needs, but still , akin to how the R is in the FF mirrorless world for Canon's entry.



It all depends upon what one needs their camera to do.

The difference between the 5D Mark III and 5D Mark IV was significant, almost to the point of revolutionary, for me. That's because I shoot a lot of action/sports under dim, flickering lighting. The addition of Canon's flicker reduction, which the 5D Mark III does not have, and much more consistent subject tracking in AI SERVO AF made the 5D Mark IV a much better camera than the 5D Mark III _for me_. YMMV.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

richperson said:


> No doubt. I had a Nikon friend (oxymoron?) who bought a high MP body and he told me many times how actually disappointing it was because it was almost impossible to get sharp pictures without a tripod. 5 stops plus my 28-70mm would be very welcome.



Shooting at wide open larges apertures (f1.4 - f2) was PAINFUL and nearly impossible handheld. I found the trick to be a tripod and then trust the LIVE VIEW focusing. My hit rate went WAY up. 5 Axis IBIS plus Lens IS should all but eliminate those problems.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Gözler said:


> So how does a mirror-less camera have a mechanical mode? Is this something to do with view finder vs live mode?



Most mirrorless ILCs still have mechanical shutters, where rolling shutter effects are not as severe at short exposure times as they are with electronic shutters.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

ronno said:


> DPReview just put this RUMOR on the front page...
> Rumor: Canon's next mirrorless camera could have 45MP sensor with IBIS and possible 8K/30p video



Yeah, it's a rehash based on the reports here at Canon Rumors...


----------



## reef58 (Jan 30, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Do attractive video features fit with 80MP sensors is my point and possibly why after all this time we are getting an R5 rather tha the RS?
> 
> The suggested July release seems like an awfully long time for a totally ready for market camera.
> 
> Or is it July because one (R5) just leap frogged another (RS)?



I am sure others have mentioned this by now, but maybe Canon pushed back the release of the RS to get bodies out there with broader appeal. I suspect the RS is coming after the more popular models.


----------



## amorse (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> LJ's question is so out there, I'll flip it around:
> 
> *From what we know, if the R5 as spec'd here is real and it's in that 5-series neighborhood and price, can anyone name the last time an existing Canon product line (of any level) was sequeled/upgraded this comprehensively from a stills perspective? *
> 
> ...


Further, some of those specs start treading on territory of other tiered cameras. If the electronic shutter is capable of managing rolling shutter with any sort of efficiency, the 5D equivalent camera will have an equivalent max burst rate to the 1DXIII and a9II, and a faster burst rate in mechanical shutter than the a9II, while having more than double the resolution of one camera, and near double the resolution of the other. If the electronic shutter turns out to be usable for action, and the AF can keep up, this body will start to enter niches which didn't really fit the 5DIV or EOS R. I mean, if this thing can track a bird in flight, the cropping options and speed together could make a convincing argument as a wildlife body.

There are a lot of remaining questions though - i.e. are those burst rates only available in compressed raw, or are we dropping the bit rate to move all that data, can the autofocus keep up, how bad will the rolling shutter be, will Canon continue their new trend of issuing really significant firmware updates, etc. All those issues will play into it, but on paper at the moment, this camera could sit in some unfamiliar territory on the types of photography it could be well suited to do. It's exciting, but I find myself getting lost in the hype - I really struggle to see this being real, but here we are with a CR3 and a number of other outlets reporting the same thing.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## tron (Jan 30, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> It all depends upon what one needs their camera to do.
> 
> The difference between the 5D Mark III and 5D Mark IV was significant, almost to the point of revolutionary, for me. That's because I shoot a lot of action/sports under dim, flickering lighting. The addition of Canon's flicker reduction, which the 5D Mark III does not have, and much more consistent subject tracking in AI SERVO AF made the 5D Mark IV a much better camera than the 5D Mark III _for me_. YMMV.


I agree, plus it got the current AF system, faster SD controller (finally!) and had major DR improvement.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Or the rumor came straight from Canon through a couple of layers of misdirection. The only Item I question is the delivery date. The 1DX III was in DPR's hands weeks before the announcement and the availability date was very quick, particularly for a 1 series. It makes no sense that they would put a 6 month delay in a 5 series camera unless they have a hell of a lot of inventory to flush at bargain prices in the meantime.



There's also production line capacity to consider. The same line can't be making 1D Mark III bodies one day and R5 bodies the next. It takes time to transition a line over from one to the other, so it makes sense to do larger runs of each before swapping. Then there are distribution channel considerations as well. Containers do not go from Japan to everywhere else in the world overnight. Filling an entire large cargo plane with cameras (instead of shipping them on surface sailing vessels) and having it hop around the world dropping of some at each major distribution center worldwide would cost millions more.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

reef58 said:


> I am sure others have mentioned this by now, but maybe Canon pushed back the release of the RS to get bodies out there with broader appeal. I suspect the RS is coming after the more popular models.



A Camera with 83MP is a market breakthrough and Canon will give it its own special announcement (probably second half of the year) which I believe if memory serves is what they did with the 5DS and 5DSR.


----------



## Gloads (Jan 30, 2020)

Please help with a list of still pros (not video) for either the R5 or the 5DSR:

R5;
IBIS
Lighter body
Higher FPS
Articulating LCD
RF lenses?
Better DR?
Higher ISO?

5DSR;
$2,000 less (grey market)
5MP more
OVF
Minimal AA filter
Available now
More EF lenses now

So the question for me is what on the R5 list makes it worth $2k more. Having waited this long for the RS, I will certainly wait for the announcement, if not some hands-on reviews.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Dragon said:


> And using a slow SD card slows down a 5DII/5DIII/5DS/5DIV. Nothing new there. Not everybody needs the speed at all, and most don't need it all the time. SD cards are WAY cheaper, even the UHSII variety.



The EOS 5D Mark II has a single CF slot. No SD card slot to slow anything down.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Dragon said:


> Throttling with an SD card has been an issue with the 5 series back at least a far as the 5DII, so nothing new there. The RII would lose 8k, 4k /120, 4k cinema format, and some AF features and very likely IBIS. Plenty of differentiation. Sony only offers IBIS on the high end because it is not cheap to build well.



The 5D Mark II has a single CF slot. No SD card slot to slow anything down.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Please help with a list of still pros (not video) for either the R5 or the 5DSR:
> 
> R5;
> IBIS
> ...


Yes.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> There's also production line capacity to consider. The same line can't be making 1D Mark III bodies one day and R5 bodies the next. It takes time to transition a line over from one to the other, so it makes sense to do larger runs of each before swapping.


Well I'm pretty certain Canon has multiple production lines, but keeping the basics relatively similar helps efficiencies of scale. Yeah the 1DX is a special, unique animal with its own production schedule, but they also dont produce nearly as many as, say, a 5D4 or EOS R. Think od the body starting with the 5D3. That body was used for the 5D3, 5DS, 5DSR, 5D4, and bet the 5D5. 

Now look at the R line. The EOS R body/frame will be used for the R and now most likely the R5, R6, Rs. There's no real reason to vary the body in those. Now I think the RP is a bit smaller than the R and perhaps they may use that on the R6, but something tells me the entire new R line will see uniform bodies, and only the guts will be different. (Apart from R replacement for the 1DX down the road) Sensor production aside. That means the assembly line can just install one set of parts or another with presumably minimal down time. So you will have a singular production house JUST for R I would suspect.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Southstorm said:


> Has no one seen the R6 CR2.5 rumor??m
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you kidding? At the rate I'm going it will take me until sometime next year to finish reading the comments on this thread...


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Me for sure:
> 
> It was not aimed at the competition -- it was aimed at us, existing Canon owners. There was (at that time) a large pent-up interest in FF mirrorless and I assumed they'd ask for a pretty penny for it as folks didn't have to buy new lenses to use to the platform.
> It has a 5D4 sensor + tilty-flippy + more portable body. 5D4 owners (i.e. people who pay decent money for what they need) didn't have two of those things and probably wanted at least one of them without having to downgrade to a 6D2 body.
> ...



If one extremely shady non-authorized seller who's never actually sold anyone an actual body at the rock bottom price they advertise says it's $1,200, then, by God, it's now a $1,200 camera!


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> PP picked it up as well. They are running with it, too.
> 
> - A



Sometimes I run when I need to PP!


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Please help with a list of still pros (not video) for either the R5 or the 5DSR:
> 
> R5;
> IBIS
> ...



As I mentioned earlier (I think in this chain) the IBIS alone is worth it. It is WAY too hard to shoot at 50MP without some serious stabilization or very high shutter speeds, particularly at wide open apertures. You can get a 5DSR and save $1500-$2000, sure. If all you want to do with is is critical portraiture or landscaping ALWAYS with a tripod, it's a great camera. I have one. Try shooting it handheld in those conditions and you'll want to throw yourself in a woodchipper when you get those pictures into Lightroom on a big monitor. If you really want to go that high up the MP chain, you best be prepared for the difficulties of making that extra resolution usable. IBIS should eliminate most if not all that problem


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 30, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Question. If you don't care at all about video, what does this supposed camera offer for the still shooter? It seems like not all that much.



To make better art of course.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Not if Canon rolls out a same-internals SLR alongside this R5, which I believe they will. That's your 5D5 right there.
> 
> - A



They might. I also would no be surprised if the 5D Mark V doesn't appear until fall 2020, if it appears at all.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 30, 2020)

Gloads said:


> Please help with a list of still pros (not video) for either the R5 or the 5DSR:
> 
> R5;
> IBIS
> ...



Probably: 
- Better AF
- Faster overall throughput including card writes
- Overall better sensor, not just Dynamic range
- You don't know about AA filter yet
- Less latency between shots
- EVF will probably be 5mpx, 120 htz refresh rate which should get you closer to an OVF with more data available throughout he viewfinder. 
- Cool new technology!

You have to decide for yourself if you want to stick with the older sensor and less overall camera performance. The R5 pixels will be 5mpx less, but probably better "quality" pixels for capturing detail. I think you will find that you could care less about the missing 5 max. Depending on your shooting subject / style you may not need any of the improvements in the R5. Best to wait for the real spec before you decide.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Well I'm pretty certain Canon has multiple production lines, but keeping the basics relatively similar helps efficiencies of scale. Yeah the 1DX is a special, unique animal with its own production schedule, but they also dont produce nearly as many as, say, a 5D4 or EOS R. Think od the body starting with the 5D3. That body was used for the 5D3, 5DS, 5DSR, 5D4, and bet the 5D5.
> 
> Now look at the R line. The EOS R body/frame will be used for the R and now most likely the R5, R6, Rs. There's no real reason to vary the body in those. Now I think the RP is a bit smaller than the R and perhaps they may use that on the R6, but something tells me the entire new R line will see uniform bodies, and only the guts will be different. (Apart from R replacement for the 1DX down the road) Sensor production aside. That means the assembly line can just install one set of parts or another with presumably minimal down time. So you will have a singular production house JUST for R I would suspect.



R body might have to become a bit bigger due to IBIS depending on if they designed in enough space for the original R.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 30, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> There's also production line capacity to consider. The same line can't be making 1D Mark III bodies one day and R5 bodies the next. It takes time to transition a line over from one to the other, so it makes sense to do larger runs of each before swapping. Then there are distribution channel considerations as well. Containers do not go from Japan to everywhere else in the world overnight. Filling an entire large cargo plane with cameras (instead of shipping them on surface sailing vessels) and having it hop around the world dropping of some at each major distribution center worldwide would cost millions more.


I think we’ll get it before July. I don’t buy that particular part of the rumor. There’s absolutely no point to give your competition six months to plot before shipping product. Canon has a brief window of enthusiasm after announcement Before it’s yesterday's News. Sony and others would be killing the Canon buzz with their own announcements.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> R body might have to become a bit bigger due to IBIS depending on if they designed in enough space for the original R.


Good point. Certainly a factor and a possibility. Even still, that would mean all these new R cameras can still share the same frame and body


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Craig's track record with CR3 rumors is very good, so I'll take these specs to the bank even if I don't have an account with them. I will enjoy the weeping & gnashing of teeth from the Sony fanboys getting owned massively for great justice.



They'll just change their mind about what spec is most important and claim that whatever single thing Sony is better at is the one thing that really matters. they always do.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> I think we’ll get it before July. I don’t buy that particular part of the rumor. There’s absolutely no point to give your competition six months to plot before shipping product. Canon has a brief window of enthusiasm after announcement Before it’s yesterday's News. Sony and others would be killing the Canon buzz with their own announcements.


It takes a lot longer than six months to design, source, manufacture, market, and ship a new product.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

xps said:


> Well, this body - if true - will be a big step forward, near the Sony bodies and in video even much better. There must be an superfast card inside. to get 8k/30 or 4k/120. Wow. I´d be happy with half of these video features.
> Hurting, that there will be no 75MP or even 50-60. For birding each pixel is welcome....
> But in some years, when the main competitor will have 100MP, we will get 60 from our favourite brand. If I can still hold such an body - as of beeing very old - I´ll definitively buy one



This is the R5, not the R5s. That one is coming too.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

JPB said:


> I don’t think the rumor is true. Makes no sense that they wouldn’t put for instance 4K/120 in the 1dx mkiii if this was true. And why is there even a spec on the mechanical shutter?.. Normally when the release the 1D line the other cameras get some of its features. Not all of them and more. If the rumor would be true they would piss off a lot of professional photographers that went with the 1 dx mk 3



The 1-series is more than specs. It's also about reliability in tough environmental conditions and under a constant pounding in daily use.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Risking some 30-ish photos at a time. Not thousands Shots at a time Right?



No, I think he is talking about sheet film. One exposure at a time. One.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

snoke said:


> Mirror, mirror box, prism. All add expense.



High quality EVF screen - adds expen$e also


----------



## davidhfe (Jan 30, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> If one extremely shady non-authorized seller who's never actually sold anyone an actual body at the rock bottom price they advertise says it's $1,200, then, by God, it's now a $1,200 camera!



I have a friend who "found" a RED Monstro that fell out of the back of a video production van that he sold me for $999. EF mount too!

CANON IS DOOOOOOOOOOMED.


----------



## brad-man (Jan 30, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> R body might have to become a bit bigger due to IBIS depending on if they designed in enough space for the original R.


Roger over at LR doesn't think so. From his summary of the R tear-down:
"It was rather a boring disassembly, really, about what we should expect for Canon doing a Canon 6D Mark II quality mirrorless camera. It’s neatly laid out and nicely engineered inside. One thing that struck me is that it’s not very crowded inside there, or as we like to say ‘they left a lot of air inside’.
This view that I haven’t shown you yet, kind of illustrates that; there’s a pretty big gap between the circuit boards and the image sensor. If you look back at the Sony A7R III teardown (or the Nikon Z teardown to come) you’ll notice there’s not that much space inside; it’s taken up by the IBIS system which is big and thick. Do I think future Rs are going to have IBIS? No, I don’t. Canon has been very clear that they think lens stabilization is superior. The space is probably just a matter of ergonomics and perhaps heat diffusion. But there’s certainly room for it."

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/10/teardown-of-the-canon-eos-r-mirrorless-camera/


----------



## richperson (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Shooting at wide open larges apertures (f1.4 - f2) was PAINFUL and nearly impossible handheld. I found the trick to be a tripod and then trust the LIVE VIEW focusing. My hit rate went WAY up. 5 Axis IBIS plus Lens IS should all but eliminate those problems.



I see an RF 400mm f/2.8 IS in my future. Do we know if the R IBIS works with IS in EF lenses? I'm assuming it does not work as well.


----------



## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I have a friend who "found" a RED Monstro that fell out of the back of a video production van that he sold me for $999. EF mount too!
> 
> CANON IS DOOOOOOOOOOMED.


Thanks, this is helpful in solving the police case


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

richperson said:


> I see an RF 400mm f/2.8 IS in my future. Do we know if the R IBIS works with IS in EF lenses? I'm assuming it does not work as well.


We have no news on that yet, but I bet on "absolutely, YES" provided you're using a Canon made EF/RF adapter, the communication should be flawless. My IS works perfectly now going from EF to EOS R. I see no reason this would be any different. IBIS works independently of the lens, whether it has IS or not.


----------



## Durf (Jan 30, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> I think you may be waiting a long time. Maybe forever. Just because there is a 1DX3 or 5D4 or 7D2 doesn’t mean there has to be a 1DX4 or 5D5 or 7D3. New things happen. The market moves on and it changes. Successful businesses adapt or disappear.


 Yeah, I adapted and moved on from the 7D Mark ii to a 90D and enjoying a new day


----------



## dog8food (Jan 30, 2020)

I'm a video guy, and I can say that if most of this is true, then it's all the camera I'll ever need for a long long time.


----------



## BillB (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Good point. Certainly a factor and a possibility. Even still, that would mean all these new R cameras can still share the same frame and body


If I remember right, Roger Cicala found the space inside the R interesting when he took one apart and wondered if it was space for IBIS.


----------



## telemaque (Jan 30, 2020)

dog8food said:


> I'm a video guy, and I can say that if most of this is true, then it's all the camera I'll ever need for a long long time.


 Well mostly agree with you. However, I wish to see the final product, the video menu, the image quality of the videos and obviously the nice color management of Canon vs competition.

In Canon we believe, but like St Thomas we prefer to check first before purchasing.


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I promise you if/when you ever start shoot with close to 50MP, you will be banging your head into the walls next to your computer if you didn't either use a tripod, super fast shutter speeds, or at the very least a well stabilized lens.



That hasn't been my personal experience. But...mentally my expectations for required shutter speeds didn't change from crop. So 1/(focal length * 1.6) and with the exception of the 24-70, my lenses are all stabilized.

Never the less, IBIS on the new R's will be a welcome addition.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

dog8food said:


> I'm a video guy, and I can say that if most of this is true, then it's all the camera I'll ever need for a long long time.


Like me, you may want to look at the R6 rumors. I'm betting that IF this truly can pull off 4k120, it's going to have to be a 1:1 pixel ratio which would be something like a 2.5x CROP. HUUUUGE CROP. Which, if can slap on a super wide lens and you DONT need a wide shot... That works! But do NOT expect [email protected] in FF or any sort of nominal crop. PERIOD. The R6 rumors as of this moment show [email protected], which should be the same parameters as the 1DX3. Even with the 1.3x Crop to get DPAF, that is perfectly fine. Want FF? You got it, just no DPAF. for Video shooting I would MUCH rather a far lower MP machine (ideally 1:1 like the a7S) and damn the oversampling. Go check out the R6 rumors.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 30, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> It takes a lot longer than six months to design, source, manufacture, market, and ship a new product.


True that. But, the competition has stuff in their pipelines, too. They can play defense. They can make promises (development announcements), spread disinformation and generally create Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) that confuses the market and dulls you’re future product. There is also very real risk in announcing product early that unexpected circumstances or glitches cause a delay. You can completely freeze (or nearly) your own sales (and revenue) for months until you can ship the hot new product. Heck, even a crazy virus can close your plants. Lots of risk, not much benefit. That’s what I’ve learned first hand in the tech industry.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> That hasn't been my personal experience. But...mentally my expectations for required shutter speeds didn't change from crop. So 1/(focal length * 1.6) and with the exception of the 24-70, my lenses are all stabilized.
> 
> Never the less, IBIS on the new R's will be a welcome addition.



You expect to be able to pixel peep with 50MP and see a visible, major upgrade over a 20MP shot. 90% of my handheld shots on the 5DSR using the same routine shutter speeds and techniques as my DX2 showed marginal to little if any differences. It was only when I shoot at very high speeds or tripod mounted did the extra resolution become consistently, and readily apparent.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 30, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Well I'm pretty certain Canon has multiple production lines, but keeping the basics relatively similar helps efficiencies of scale. Yeah the 1DX is a special, unique animal with its own production schedule, but they also dont produce nearly as many as, say, a 5D4 or EOS R. Think od the body starting with the 5D3. That body was used for the 5D3, 5DS, 5DSR, 5D4, and bet the 5D5.
> 
> Now look at the R line. The EOS R body/frame will be used for the R and now most likely the R5, R6, Rs. There's no real reason to vary the body in those. Now I think the RP is a bit smaller than the R and perhaps they may use that on the R6, but something tells me the entire new R line will see uniform bodies, and only the guts will be different. (Apart from R replacement for the 1DX down the road) Sensor production aside. That means the assembly line can just install one set of parts or another with presumably minimal down time. So you will have a singular production house JUST for R I would suspect.



Guts are what get assembled and put together on the main production line. Mostly by robots that have to be reprogrammed and retooled for each individual camera model. What you are calling "bodies" are housings that are already cast and machined when they arrive at the production line to be placed around the internal components of the camera after they've been assembled. But even there, there are minor differences in shapes, button placements, etc. that are different for each of the bodies you've lumped together.


----------



## AEWest (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> No, I agree completely. R5 and 5D5 will both happen and be about the same price. I do however believe that the 5D5 will be the final 5D body



I disagree unfortunately. I think the last new DSLR by Canon has already been introduced. 

For those that prefer OVF over EVF, I would stick with existing gear until I got used to EVF - I wouldn't buy a new DSLR anymore (except 1D sports users).

The reason is lenses. With the development of RF glass and their better optical quality due to short flange distance, a DSLR photographer is handcuffing himself to older EF lenses that Canon will no longer develop. An R series camera can adapt EF lens, but DSLR can't adapt R glass. 

That is a much bigger disadvantage than latency in viewfinder.

It is now an inevitable shift to mirrorless, equivalent to when digital took over from film.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> No, that's not true. The read noise is actually several components, some of which are after amplification. That's why the read noise goes down when you increase ISO.



How can it go down if some parts of it stay the same and some parts get amplified!? We multiply some components of the read noise by 2, 4, 8 etc., how can it go down? It's a trivial math. SNR can reduce a bit but not the noise itself!



Lee Jay said:


> Yes, I was. I showed that the Powershot S120 has higher DR than the 1Dx, despite WAY smaller pixels.



You showed data from unknown deceased source and for sensors from different generations and from different manufacturers. S120 has a much better quantum efficiency as far as I understand. And the early CMOS or CCD sensors had even poorer well capacity yet larger pixels, but it's irrelevant.
We were discussing the prospective sensors of the same generation from the same manufacturer (Canon), whether or not the higher resolution sensor will have poorer DR performance.



Lee Jay said:


> Ask yourself this question. If well capacity is everything,



I never said well capacity was everything. It's one of the important factors, but not everything. There's also noise and ADC bitness. Given all other factors are the same, reducing well capacity generally leads to reduced DR.



Lee Jay said:


> then why is the inventor of our sensors working on ways to build sensors with a well capacity of 1 electron? Wouldn't that be entirely counter-productive if you were right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a totally different tech that I don't think is used in any real world cameras yet. But if you read the description carefully, you'll see that the 'well capacity' term is simply irrelevant there as there's no 'well' corresponding to a single pixel, each pixel of the resulting image will be gotten from multiple readings from multiple 'jots' at a high frequency. Accumulated readings will be analogous to the 'well' in CMOS.

So I'm not sure what are you trying to prove there. You get better DR when you have greater range of possible values from your reading.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> True that. But, the competition has stuff in their pipelines, too. They can play defense. They can make promises (development announcements), spread disinformation and generally create Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) that confuses the market and dulls you’re future product. There is also very real risk in announcing product early that unexpected circumstances or glitches cause a delay. You can completely freeze (or nearly) your own sales (and revenue) for months until you can ship the hot new product. Heck, even a crazy virus can close your plants. Lots of risk, not much benefit. That’s what I’ve learned first hand in the tech industry.



These new R products have been in development stages for YEARS.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I disagree unfortunately. I think the last new DSLR by Canon has already been introduced.
> 
> For those that prefer OVF over EVF, I would stick with existing gear until I got used to EVF - I wouldn't buy a new DSLR anymore (except 1D sports users).
> 
> ...



You might be willing to retool your entire professional bag over the next year, but the vast majority of 5D users will NOT. They have extensive libraries of EF glass, some even still using 5D2 cameras. More still using 5D3. It would be WAAAAY too easy for Canon to make a 5D5 to satisfy those wedding photogs who adore that ergonomic form factor and make a mint on selling them as the farewell address to the 5D body line. This would afford Canon's LARGEST professional body user base an extra 3-4 years to map their migrations over to R bodies, even adapting their lenses if need be. The only other way that works is IF IF IF Canon develops this new R5 body to mimic and feel like the current 5D body. In other words, make it artificially larger. Another possibility is throwing in a free adapter for EF glass again. I would be VERY surprised if we don't see see one last iteration of the 5D body based on the R5 tech/guts


----------



## dog8food (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Like me, you may want to look at the R6 rumors. I'm betting that IF this truly can pull off 4k120, it's going to have to be a 1:1 pixel ratio which would be something like a 2.5x CROP. HUUUUGE CROP. Which, if can slap on a super wide lens and you DONT need a wide shot... That works! But do NOT expect [email protected] in FF or any sort of nominal crop. PERIOD. The R6 rumors as of this moment show [email protected], which should be the same parameters as the 1DX3. Even with the 1.3x Crop to get DPAF, that is perfectly fine. Want FF? You got it, just no DPAF. for Video shooting I would MUCH rather a far lower MP machine (ideally 1:1 like the a7S) and damn the oversampling. Go check out the R6 rumors.


Probably true, but I own lots of EF glass and the metabones .71x speedbooster works nicely on my current R.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

shunsai said:


> In other words, "We're just getting started!"



Sony fanboys: "Are you ready to discuss the terms of your surrender?"

Canon: "I have not yet begun to fight."


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> These new R products have been in development stages for YEARS.


Sure. Absolutely correct. But I wouldn’t call ahead and tell my competitors in detail what I will be selling in six months. I think that gives away a huge tactical advantage. Unless you’re Elon Musk. I’m sure Canon knows what their doing and has a plan. They’re smart. It's just surprising to me that it’s such a long lead time to shipping.


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I disagree unfortunately. I think the last new DSLR by Canon has already been introduced.
> 
> For those that prefer OVF over EVF, I would stick with existing gear until I got used to EVF - I wouldn't buy a new DSLR anymore (except 1D sports users).
> 
> ...


I believe that the EVF revolution will be played out by sales figures. It is far too early to predict the evolutionary tract of the viewfinder. Canon is very good and waiting and seeing.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

dog8food said:


> Probably true, but I own lots of EF glass and the metabones .71x speedbooster works nicely on my current R.


Shooting video on the EOS R myself... I would GREATLY prefer having an R6 with FF readouts on my L glass. Huge difference. I can get that on my DX2 now (1.3 crop is so little it almost doesn't matter), but I can't get 4K out to my Atomos.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> One is created in the mind of the artist, one is captured from the universe by the tool in the hands of the technician.



The mind of the artist is rarely, if ever, anything more than the sum total of the parts of the universe to which that mind has been exposed.


----------



## richperson (Jan 31, 2020)

Count me down as one who thinks we will not see a 5D5. I just don't see it. Canon is clearly moving in the RF direction and you put an EF-RF adapter on the R5 and leave it on there and you can use all the EF glass you want--with IBIS. Just my guess.

I understand why they are making the 1DXiii with a mirror, but not so sure we will see a 5D5 as the advantages over an R5 are less dramatic.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Photography is a means of documentation that can, if desired, be done in an aesthetically pleasing way.



How is that different from a painting of a landscape, or a sculpture of a person, or any other art representing something else that exists in the universe?


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Sure. Absolutely correct. But I wouldn’t call ahead and tell my competitors in detail what I will be selling in six months. I think that gives away a huge tactical advantage. Unless you’re Elon Musk.



Rumors of new cameras and specs have been dropping on this website for many years, months ahead of their announcements. Nothing new. Canon is the biggest kid on this block and it doesn't matter. Of course they announce the development months ahead of release. If they don't they LOSE sales by people buying other cameras from Fuji and Sony and so on in the meantime who would otherwise wait 3-4 months after announcement for a Canon.


----------



## AEWest (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> You might be willing to retool your entire professional bag over the next year, but the vast majority of 5D users will NOT. They have extensive libraries of EF glass, some even still using 5D2 cameras. More still using 5D3. It would be WAAAAY too easy for Canon to make a 5D5 to satisfy those wedding photogs who adore that ergonomic form factor and make a mint on selling them as the farewell address to the 5D body line. This would afford Canon's LARGEST professional body user base an extra 3-4 years to map their migrations over to R bodies, even adapting their lenses if need be. The only other way that works is IF IF IF Canon develops this new R5 body to mimic and feel like the current 5D body. In other words, make it artificially larger. Another possibility is throwing in a free adapter for EF glass again. I would be VERY surprised if we don't see see one last iteration of the 5D body based on the R5 tech/guts



Obviously this is only my opinion, no inside info. I believe Canon engineered the flawless R to EF adapter so that the existing EF lenses would not be orphaned in the way FD lenses were back in the day ( I still have an AE-1!). 
But make no mistake, DSLRs are living on borrowed time. So I would advise most photographers to move to mirrorless if they are in the market for a new camera.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Just because all art forms accepted (except photography) can start from nothing doesn't mean that everything that is started from nothing is art. Assuming so would be a logical fallacy. Art also has to have a creative element and be aesthetically pleasing to at least some people (most art is aesthetically pleasing to a small fraction of the population).



Art does not need to be aesthetically pleasing at all. Much art is noted precisely because it can be aesthetically disturbing in a most non pleasing way.

All art is about an interpretation of what already exists somewhere in the universe that evokes an emotional or intellectual response in the person perceiving the art.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

richperson said:


> Count me down as one who thinks we will not see a 5D5. I just don't see it. Canon is clearly moving in the RF direction and you put an EF-RF adapter on the R5 and leave it on there and you can use all the EF glass you want--with IBIS. Just my guess.
> 
> I understand why they are making the 1DXiii with a mirror, but not so sure we will see a 5D5 as the advantages over an R5 are less dramatic.



Because having a body built for a native mount is still ergonomically superior to slapping on an adapter and the crowd of 5D users is one Canon caters their pro business to.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> We were discussing high ISO performance, not base ISO DR.


Looks like everyone was discussing what concerns them the most. I was more concerned about the base ISO DR.



dtaylor said:


> With regard to base ISO DR: can you show us, with real world photographs, what the difference on that chart means to the human eye?



We've already gone through it in other threads. 2 stop difference is huge. 1.1 stops is quite noticeable.
But ok, here's an example. This image was shot using ETTR. Before editing, the rocks were almost completely black and the sky _looked _blown out (but wasn't).
I lifted the shadows by about 1.5 stops. I'd have gotten very noisy shadows on a camera with s 2-stop poorer performance than my 5DIV. Probably unusable.
For a more scientific demonstration I'd need to shoot that scene with two cameras, but thanks no, proving myself right on a forum isn't worth the hassle. 



dtaylor said:


> This is why you can take a dual pixel RAW and extend DR by about 1ev.



This is what we've also discussed a couple of times before. No, DPRSplit tool doesn't really work, it often spoils highlights and can't be relied upon. I've even shown examples some time ago. https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...ic-range-using-dpaf-sensors.37447/post-787672

As a consumer, I don't really care why Canon lags behind in DR, sure it can be because of the dual-pixel tech, but I don't care.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Sure. Absolutely correct. But I wouldn’t call ahead and tell my competitors in detail what I will be selling in six months. I think that gives away a huge tactical advantage. Unless you’re Elon Musk.


I'll recall the very middle 1980s. I worked for Proctor and Gamble in the factory that made Duncan Hines Ready to Serve Cookies. Via industrial espionage a competitor beat us to market with our own product. Needless to say, our product lost out on the element of surprise and failed in the market. That was spying from within. If we are hearing leaks now it is because Canon wants us to. Sony already knew anyway. Just my opinion based on my personal experience and having to move to the Pringle's division.  Damn Elves.


----------



## Rule556 (Jan 31, 2020)

MVPhoto said:


> It's basically a stripped down 5D mk4. It's the exact same sensor as the 5D mk4. That camera was $3,500 when it launched new. It's still $2,600 new several years later. Yes, it has 2 card slots. The EOS R has some improvements to it's video codecs that the mk4 doesn't have though. All and all I think the launch price on the EOS R was very reasonable. When the EOS R dropped to $1,500 for Christmas I nearly snagged one then but I'm waiting for this rumored R5!



I agree. I picked up the R at $1499 from Glazer's here in Seattle before Christmas, and I feel like I stole this camera. As an enthusiast upgrading from an OG 6D, it got me into mirrorless with a better sensor, AF, and all the advantages of mirrorless for waaaaay less than a 5DIV. It's almost a perfect enthusiast camera. My only gripe is the touch bar, but frankly the usability of the R is so much greater than the 6D that I just don't care. My guess is the R5 will be way too rich for my blood and for features and specs that do not matter to me in the slightest, so I'm happy I bought when I did.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Obviously this is only my opinion, no inside info. I believe Canon engineered the flawless R to EF adapter so that the existing EF lenses would not be orphaned in the way FD lenses were back in the day ( I still have an AE-1!).
> But make no mistake, DSLRs are living on borrowed time. So I would advise most photographers to move to mirrorless if they are in the market for a new camera.



The adapters work great. It's about the ergonomics feel. The 5D4 is about 3 years now. I think they will kick out one more next year and that will be it. Their biggest pro base needs time to migrate over, and a 5D5 would be exceptionally cost effective to make by that point. It's just a gut instinct. If I'm wrong. I'm wrong. no biggie. Just trying to express where I'm coming from. Also bear in mind, that retirement roadmap for the 5D5 will have a LOT to do with how fast they can flesh out the RF glass library


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

xps said:


> Well... the 1DXIII is (via www) 6500$ in US - and 7300€ in Germany...
> Ordered the 5D IV back in 2016 at 4099€... so 4500 should be possible. I do hope for cheaper prices too.
> 
> I do believe, Canon will milk the cow an much as possible.



In most places in the U.S., $6500 + sales tax = around $7100.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'll recall the very middle 1980s. I worked for Proctor and Gamble in the factory that made Duncan Hines Ready to Serve Cookies. Via industrial espionage a competitor beat us to market with our own product. Needless to say, our product lost out on the element of surprise and failed in the market. That was spying from within. If we are hearing leaks now it is because Canon wants us to. Sony already knew anyway. Just my opinion based on my personal experience and having to move to the Pringle's division.  Damn Elves.


You are probably totally correct. There aren’t many secrets these days.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> And my point was that photography sticks out as the one on that is captured instead of created.



Your concept of what photography, at its best, can be seems severely limited to what one might call "taking a photo." There are those who understand the concept of "making a photo."


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Perhaps. For me, that set of skills ("Networking, self-promoting, finding and working with patrons") is so excruciating that I actively try to avoid doing it.



Who'd have ever thunk it if you had not told us that?


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Obviously this is only my opinion, no inside info. I believe Canon engineered the flawless R to EF adapter so that the existing EF lenses would not be orphaned in the way FD lenses were back in the day ( I still have an AE-1!).
> But make no mistake, DSLRs are living on borrowed time. So I would advise most photographers to move to mirrorless if they are in the market for a new camera.



Think of it this way. The average product life cycle of (particularly) L glass is 3-4 times that of a camera body. ANY camera body. Look at all the new EF L glass they have churned out in the last 3 years. They are going to have to stretch out that life with a limited line of D series bodies, like the new 1dx3 and most likely a 5D5. Canon maps this stuff out years in advance. (and I still have my Dad's A1 )


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> I know that feeling!
> 
> Well the RF 15-35L IS is superior to the Ef 16-35L III in virtually every regard so I wouldn't feel bad about that.
> 
> The Ef 24-70L was one of those freak lenses I think, nobody since has made a 24-70 quite as sharp. A bit like Nikon did with their 14-24, sometimes someone gets it just right. And the Ef 24-70 was one such lens. If Canon does start shipping cameras with IBIS it will really give a new lease of life to that lens as you can usually buy it at very good price now.



Surely you mean the EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II? Rather than the EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L?


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Kit. said:


> They cannot.
> 
> As Carl Sagan said, “If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
> 
> ...



Precisely. If the measure of an artist is how well they can "create from nothing except what is in their mind", why did Michelangelo need human models posing for him to produce the David, the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, etc?

I guess he was just a technician like our audio engineer, since he didn't really create that, he just recorded/reproduced it!


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Memdroid said:


> Canon was the first to introduce 4k Recording on a DSLR, 8 years ago in 2012, on the 1Dc.



Yeah, and they charged $15,000 for the privilege of owning the only 4K camera available at the time.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Gözler said:


> Well I am still finding it too good to be true. Is this the clue that this is a joke? I mean mirror-less camera shooting in mechanical mode?



Mechanical *shutter*.

Electronic *shutter*.

It's really not that hard.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Then the word has no meaning.



Words have no meaning whatsoever apart from those that use them. The same is true of art.


----------



## AEWest (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Think of it this way. The average product life cycle of (particularly) L glass is 3-4 times that of a camera body. ANY camera body. Look at all the new EF L glass they have churned out in the last 3 years. They are going to have to stretch out that life with a limited line of D series bodies, like the new 1dx3 and most likely a 5D5. Canon maps this stuff out years in advance. (and I still have my Dad's A1 )



Another reason why i believe DSLR development is now dead is how much development money Canon has spent on the 10 new R lenses. Probably millions. They have already amortized all the development costs of the EF lenses over the millions of lenses sold.

But they have sold few R lenses.

Why would they develop a DSLR that they could never sell a R lens with? The 1dx3 is a small volume product so it is an exception, mainly due to the needs of the sports pro and lack of long R glass. But this is coming too.

When you look at R glass available, it is pro grade glass that covers the vast majority of range needed for non sports pro photographers (wedding, event, studio, landscape etc.)

So I can't imagine they would develop any more full frame cameras that can't use these lenses. It makes no economic sense.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

preppyak said:


> Either way, the outcome of this is gonna be funny:
> 
> a. CR guy just got trolled hard, in a way that's gonna hurt if the camera way under-delivers.
> 
> ...



You do realize all of those "no 24 fps video" cameras have either already gotten firmware updates to enable 24 fps video capture or are scheduled to get in the near future?


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Another reason why i believe DSLR development is now dead is how much development money Canon has spent on the 10 new R lenses. Probably millions. They have already amortized all the development costs of the EF lenses over the millions of lenses sold.
> 
> But they have sold few R lenses.
> 
> ...



There will still be plenty migration to rf regardless. And these new RF lenses could have a product life even greater than current EF glass. In other words, it almost doesn't matter. Those new RF lenses will be viable for at minimum a decade, whereas if they completely kill the D bodies tomorrow apart from the 1DX3, then they just killed their new EF glass potential. Why buy a brand new 85L f1.4 IS when you have one in an RF mount now too? Things like that tell me they will have one more 5D body before they Hall of Fame them. It's also the reason they knew they had to get the video people on board early to help drive sales while the 5D stills pros migrate over a much longer period of time by comparison


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> "the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects "
> 
> Key words, "creative" and "imagination". Also note the "and".
> 
> *"Art* is a diverse range of human activities in creating visual, auditory or performing artifacts (artworks), expressing the author's imaginative, conceptual ideas, *or* technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power. "



If you can't see the difference that skill and creative imagination makes between this



and this,





there's no hope for you. For your sake, I truly am sorry.


----------



## Rule556 (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> One is created in the mind of the artist, one is captured from the universe by the tool in the hands of the technician.



Here's the thing. A photograph is only a representation of reality. The _art _in photography (or any medium for that matter) comes from a human using a camera to _interpret _reality through the lens of their own world view. Therein lies the creativity. The tools or mediums used are irrelevant.

In my opinion, art is the product of the artist's interpretation and presentation of their vision of the world. Regardless of medium, perceived quality, or how other people react to the art. If it's art to the artist, then it is art. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just as art is in the eye of the artist.

I would suggest that your definition of art may be too narrow.

I do appreciate your perspective however. It made me think of how I look at photography and the art I create using it.


----------



## telemaque (Jan 31, 2020)

Dear all,
Please have a look of the extracts from Canon's financial presentation.
I put all the extracts in another thread in the Forum:
Canon General/Canon Financial Report Year 2019 

Interesting to see what Canon is communicating to their investors...
Confirming some rumors recently announced here.

a new sensor in the pipe...and a new image processing engine.


----------



## brad-man (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Another reason why i believe DSLR development is now dead is how much development money Canon has spent on the 10 new R lenses. Probably millions. They have already amortized all the development costs of the EF lenses over the millions of lenses sold.
> 
> But they have sold few R lenses.
> 
> ...


Does that make more economic sense than discontinuing the most (arguably) successful line of cameras and lenses ever created while people still want to buy them?


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> The camera is targeting an exact reproduction. In fact, we all argue about the accuracy of this reproduction at length - noise, DR and color from sensors, geometric distortion, spherical aberration, chromatic aberration and field flatness (etc.) from lenses.



Not all. Some smear vaseline on the front of the lens to insure the result is a less accurate reproduction of reality. Others do similar things, or use intentionally misaligned lenses to get the interpretation they want.

Some choose lenses, like the EF 50mm f/1.2 L, for example, that others pan offhand as "bad" and "outdated" because it does not perfectly reproduce a flat test chart at moderate distances, precisely because of the "inaccurate" qualities it gives a photograph.




Lee Jay said:


> The scene is not imagined. It exists. The way it's reproduced (NOT created) by the camera and photographer doesn't change that.
> 
> That "imagined result" doesn't really exists, for the most part. You don't imagine a scene, and then go out and find that exact scene and photograph it. You start with a scene and imagine how you're going to record it. But it's already there.



I dare you to stand face to face with Kubrick's ghost and say that. Have you ever seen "2001?"


----------



## Rule556 (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I'm in the later group, and I don't consider what I do "art" because I didn't create what I'm shooting, only how I'm shooting it, just like the audio technician at a recording session isn't creating the music, only capturing it. Why isn't that occupation (which requires no less skill than that of a great photographer) accepted as "art"?
> 
> Maybe it's art when I'm shooting a model airplane I built, because I did create that scene.



I would counter that good audio engineers, mastering engineers, and producers are absolutely seen as artists by the musicians that they work with. All the skill in the world can't help an engineer with a tin ear, or one who lacks creativity. A concert pianist doesn't just reproduce the notes on the page, they interpret those notes. Their presentation of that music is the art, just as the notes were the artistic product of the composer.


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

richperson said:


> Count me down as one who thinks we will not see a 5D5. I just don't see it. Canon is clearly moving in the RF direction and you put an EF-RF adapter on the R5 and leave it on there and you can use all the EF glass you want--with IBIS. Just my guess.
> 
> I understand why they are making the 1DXiii with a mirror, but not so sure we will see a 5D5 as the advantages over an R5 are less dramatic.


See earlier post


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Think of it this way. The average product life cycle of (particularly) L glass is 3-4 times that of a camera body. ANY camera body. Look at all the new EF L glass they have churned out in the last 3 years. They are going to have to stretch out that life with a limited line of D series bodies, like the new 1dx3 and most likely a 5D5. Canon maps this stuff out years in advance. (and I still have my Dad's A1 )


Glass is eternal, bodies have a short life. Take the 135L, I'd buy it today if I didn't already have it.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

Guys please push harder. It's almost 50 pages and 1000 comments. Break the record!

'Canon is *******' isn't really working anymore, 'Why I will/won't buy this camera' comments don't help much as they don't produce a lot of responses (who cares why you won't buy it), but Dynamic Range, Photography as Art question and the Need for IBIS can help tremendously. "You don't need this feature" also produces a lot of traffic. Go go go!


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Guys please push harder. It's almost 50 pages and 1000 comments. Break the record!
> 
> 'Canon is *******' isn't really working anymore, 'Why I will/won't buy this camera' comments don't help much as they don't produce a lot of responses (who cares why you won't buy it), but Dynamic Range, Photography as Art question and the Need for IBIS can help tremendously. "You don't need this feature" also produces a lot of traffic. Go go go!


I seriously don't need the feature of a rumor as I subscribe to the 'Shoot with what you have' rule. However, my main body is 8 years old and I passed the shutter count lifespan for it years ago. My American Express is ready and waiting B & H.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

slclick said:


> I seriously don't need the feature of a rumor as I subscribe to the 'Shoot with what you have' rule. However, my main body is 8 years old and I passed the shutter count lifespan for it years ago. My American Express is ready and waiting B & H.



My _main _body is much older and I'm not able to upgrade it at B&H


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

The CR post yesterday on the latest coming Canon Rebel T8i is up to 27 comments now. It needs some love.


----------



## AEWest (Jan 31, 2020)

brad-man said:


> Does that make more economic sense than discontinuing the most (arguably) successful line of cameras and lenses ever created while people still want to buy them?



Yes. Because R cameras can still be used with existing EF lenses. Therefore they are not orphaned but will fade away over time as they are replaced by better R glass. Canon thought this through much better than when the EF lens mount was introduced.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> The CR post yesterday on the latest coming Canon Rebel T8i is up to 27 comments now. It needs some love.



But nobody needs that camera. It'll have low dynamic range, no IBIS, so you won't be able to produce Art with it.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> But nobody needs that camera. It'll have low dynamic range, no IBIS, so you won't be able to produce Art with it.


No. And only one SD slot. Poor thing.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon releases 5D4 at $3300ish. Canon releases 5DS at about the same price. I think we will see the same thing here with all these models (short of the bargain RP replacement) priced very similarly each with unique feature sets geared to a specific use. One all arounder (R5). One video centric (R6??). One 83MP Resolution beast with no real video usage and slower frame rates for high level studio and landscaping (R Something)



The EOS 5Ds and 5Ds R were released at $3,699 and $3,899, respectively, in 2015 dollars. That translates to $3,994 and $4,211 in 2020 dollars.

The EOS 5D mark IV was released in late 2016 at $3,499 which translates to roughly $3,726 in early 2020.


(Totally ignoring USD to yen exchange rates.)


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> No. And only one SD slot. Poor thing.



You don't need the second slot though.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> You don't need the second slot though.


Not unless you’re an artist. But I suppose an artist could draw one.
.


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> My _main _body is much older and I'm not able to upgrade it at B&H


Well, we need to start a GoFundMe for you! (anything to get away from Photography isn't Art and Card Slot madness)


----------



## brad-man (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Yes. Because R cameras can still be used with existing EF lenses. Therefore they are not orphaned but will fade away over time as they are replaced by better R glass. Canon thought this through much better than when the EF lens mount was introduced.


You're argument _was_ that it makes no economic sense for Canon to continue making DSLRs. _Now_ your argument is that it makes no sense for consumers to buy them.


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> The CR post yesterday on the latest coming Canon Rebel T8i is up to 27 comments now. It needs some love.


That Rebel is better than most top tier bodies from a decade ago, look how far we've come baby!


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Not unless you’re an artist. But I suppose an artist could draw one.
> .


You use the 2nd slot for B&W, because we all know your millennial mft Olympus and Panasonic street shots are monochrome.


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Not unless you’re an artist. But I suppose an artist could draw one.
> .


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Not unless you’re an artist. But I suppose an artist could draw one.



I haven't seen 850D images, but I've drawn the slot for the EOS R. Am I an artist now? Is it visually pleasing and does it convey emotions?


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

slclick said:


> That Rebel is better than most top tier bodies from a decade ago, look how far we've come baby!


My first DSLR was the Canon D6, around 1998, I think. It was about $2,000 and had a 6MP APSC-sized sensor. I didn’t even know what dynamic range was. I forget the FPS, but not much. I put a grand down at the local camera store — remember those? — and waited about nine months for it because of the back orders. Three months after I picked it up, Canon announced the improved and cheaper 10D. It’s really been an amazing photographic ride ever since.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

slclick said:


> View attachment 188459


I WANT it! Take my money, Canon!


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I haven't seen 850D images, but I've drawn the slot for the EOS R. Am I an artist now? Is it visually pleasing and does it convey emotions?
> 
> View attachment 188460


YES!!! Just Like That! YOU ARE AN ARTIST! It should hang in a museum.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Now look at the R line. The EOS R body/frame will be used for the R and now most likely the R5, R6, Rs. There's no real reason to vary the body in those.




Too small. I used one and though it was an upgrade both in grip chunkyness and (critically) distance from the mount to the A7 line, I still missed the grip and feel of my 5D3 (and I have ordinary sized hands).

I think Canon may have hedged on the last few years' 'mirrorless is all about small vs. all about being better than an SLR' debate, and they brought forth a body that would not offend either camp. The results are in. People are putting huge pickle jars on these bodies and want more of them. The entire EF line has ceased with new lens offerings = everything is headed to RF. It appears that the 'big' camp won.

A smaller FF body will follow, but there will be zero interest in it until we get a line of tiny RF lenses. So I'm hoping 'keep it small' folks get their small lenses... but until that time, I'd like a chunky 5D3 grip and thumbwheel, please. 

- A


----------



## beachcolonist (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> A LOT of people. Like, everyone who bought an a7s, and GH4 and 5, an now an SH1, and Fuji Xt series, an so on. Most of what I do is stills but video is growing and there is a big market out there for video focused cameras that aren't big body $10K machines


That says nothing.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I disagree unfortunately. I think the last new DSLR by Canon has already been introduced.




No doubt -- mirrors RIP! 

I think this take above will stand the test of t---









Here is the Canon EOS Rebel 850D/T8i


Beyond the excitement of the new EOS R camera bodies that appear to be coming, we're also getting a new EOS Rebel 850D/T8i very shortly. Canon EOS Rebel 850




www.canonrumors.com





Oh.

Shucks. 

- A


----------



## pj1974 (Jan 31, 2020)

I


Quarkcharmed said:


> Guys please push harder. It's almost 50 pages and 1000 comments. Break the record!
> 
> 'Canon is *******' isn't really working anymore, 'Why I will/won't buy this camera' comments don't help much as they don't produce a lot of responses (who cares why you won't buy it), but Dynamic Range, Photography as Art question and the Need for IBIS can help tremendously. "You don't need this feature" also produces a lot of traffic. Go go go!



I'm doing my bit for the betterment of mankind (and humankind lol), for society, and the planet... by contributing multiple posts in this tread.

So, I already wrote about "why I possibly _might buy _this camera" - and had some nice interaction- some pages back... now to focus on more hard hitting comment-attracting themes, such as 1. DR, 2. Photography as Art and 3. Need for IBIS! ... lol
Don't forget 4. the FF vs APS-C topic and related sub-themes, such as 'equivalence' and 'dof', etc... lots of comments from there too. 

1. I really found a big jump in ability to push shadows and highlights in my 80D compared to all previous DSLRs.
I look forward to the RS being an incremental improvement on the 80D sensor.... if it's somewhat better (even say 0.5-1.0 Ev better than the current best Canon FF sensor, it'll be neat. But if not, that's not a game changer (for me).

2. Thankfully I feel that photography is often art in both the eye of the photographer, and in those of the viewer/s...
How I engage with a subject (still, moving, human, animal, plant or other) is often greatly determined by the viewfinder (yes seriously) - if I feel confident and comfortable in what I'm viewing, it impacts the ability to get the shot, because my creative juices can take over (the more dry technical / essential composition aspects)

3. I have many EF lenses, including some great L glass... as well as a few EF-S lenses (I'm not ashamed to admit to having and using)... I am so thrilled the way that Canon has made the EF-RF adapter, so I can use all these lenses on the EOS R and EOS RP, respectively. 
That I can use legacy EF and EF-S lenses at their full potential is huge... and to add IBIS will change certain photos that I have to date been unable to effectively get (without a tripod in particular).
IBIS will really benefit so many of them, especially my lenses which do not have stabilisation, e.g. the 50mm f/1.8 STM, etc.
If canon can make IBIS work WITH the ILIS in EF lenses (as well as the ILIS of RF lenses) - so both gain a stop or few advantage of stabilisation... well, now THAT would be very cool!

4. I love the size of my 80D, and I also own a 7D. I have used a number of 5D cameras and 1D cameras over time too. 80D is pretty much my ideal camera size.. a bit lighter would be fine, but the weight is ok. The ergonomics of the EOS R aren't 'terrible' - but they definitely don't work for me as well as DSLRs. To have the FF sensor size advantage - but in a camera body about the size / weight of a 80D, would be great. (I also own a M5 by the way).
No FF camera ever tempted me to move from APS-C to FF (yet) - but as I saw the "Canon going FF mirrorless, with a new lens mount" writing on the wall *several *years ago, I held out till the right body would arrive... the R5 looks to be it.

Ok... that should do it for now... feel free to reply, quote and comment on my post, so we reach the 1000 comment and 50 pages full mark SOON! 

PJ


----------



## beachcolonist (Jan 31, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I guess if the highest throughout of any ILC like ever, a 15mp bump, a whole host of AF improvements, access to the best mount in photography, 5 stops of stabilization on all your current glass, etc is a yawner then congrats on not needing to drop $4K on a new camera.
> 
> I am confident that the rest of the things you mentioned will be improvements over the 5D series as well.


What you seem to not see is that all this just a high end two year old Sony. Canon users will be stuck with this for five years, while Sony etc take off again. I've owned the best Canon body the offer, since 1975. Through a lot of that period they WERE the best available. That's all I'm saying: lead, put it all together, crush the opposition in still cameras. That's all.


----------



## beachcolonist (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> You willing to pay more for a camera without video? Because that's what you'd have to do.


Now that's logical.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> My first DSLR was the Canon D6, around 1998, I think. It was about $2,000 and had a 6MP APSC-sized sensor. I didn’t even know what dynamic range was. I forget the FPS, but not much. I put a grand down at the local camera store — remember those? — and waited about nine months for it because of the back orders. Three months after I picked it up, Canon announced the improved and cheaper 10D. It’s really been an amazing photographic ride ever since.



Hang on D60 was announced in 2002 and was replaced by 10D in 2003. 
I couldn't find D6 but there was D6000 in 1998, but it was well before 10D.


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> No doubt. Mirrors RIP. I think this take will stand the test of t---
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your thoughts and prayers only go so far, money talks.....Canon will tell you whether the dslr is gone or not, not some forum pundit.


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Hang on D60 was announced in 2002 and was replaced by 10D in 2003.
> I couldn't find D6 but there was D6000 in 1998, but it was well before 10D.


Maybe it's that Euro/USA/Japanese naming scheme disfunction? It might have been known here as the Rebel XT2000 ll


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

slclick said:


> Maybe it's that Euro/USA/Japanese naming scheme disfunction? It might have been known here as the Rebel XT2000 ll



I think in 1998 there was only D6000 (in collaboration with Kodak) but it's APS-H and was 5 years before 10D, so doesn't match the story.
D60 is a better fit in terms of the described specs and it was quickly succeeded by 10D, but it was 2002.

It's an intriguing mystery and it needs clarification! I didn't even know about D6000 and D60 before this thread, that's why I started to look them up.

My first digital camera was some PowerShot in 2006, first DSLR was 550D in 2010. 550D was producing great quality images compared to the Powershot, but I mainly used it in Auto and P modes. Real fun and journey into the depths of digital skills mastery started with 70D later on.


----------



## AEWest (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> No doubt -- mirrors RIP!
> 
> I think this take above will stand the test of t---
> 
> ...



Sorry if I haven't been clear. I have been referring to DSLR in context of full frame cameras and lenses (EF vs R lenses, 5d vs R5) not consumer grade introductory cameras and EF-S lenses.


----------



## davo (Jan 31, 2020)

45 MP = poor high ISO performance???


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Sorry if I haven't been clear. I have been referring to DSLR in context of full frame cameras and lenses (EF vs R lenses, 5d vs R5) not consumer grade introductory cameras and EF-S lenses.




I appreciate the clarification. I respectfully disagree.

I still think the 1-series and to a lesser degree the 5-series will see a few more mirrored updates.

A new 5DS? Maybe one more before the mirror dies.

A new 7D? Pray for R7.

A new 90D? Enjoy your EOS M6 Mk III.

- A


----------



## slclick (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Hang on D60 was announced in 2002 and was replaced by 10D in 2003.
> I couldn't find D6 but there was D6000 in 1998, but it was well before 10D.


Yep, the Camera Museum is always the place to seek these queries. https://global.canon/en/c-museum/product/dslr781.html
My first dslr was the 300D Rebel, it was film and the Nikon FM and EOS 3 until (and after) that point. At the time (2002) I thought the 1D series was the only digital SLR's out and didn't know about the Dx series until later. Then I started lusting after the XXD's....No CR back then for GAS stories, lol.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 31, 2020)

beachcolonist said:


> Now that's logical.


Perfectly logical. There is so little demand that... you can finish the sentence.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Too small. I used one and though it was an upgrade both in grip chunkyness and (critically) distance from the mount to the A7 line, I still missed the grip and feel of my 5D3 (and I have ordinary sized hands).
> 
> I think Canon may have hedged on the last few years' 'mirrorless is all about small vs. all about being better than an SLR' debate, and they brought forth a body that would not offend either camp. The results are in. People are putting huge pickle jars on these bodies and want more of them. The entire EF line has ceased with new lens offerings = everything is headed to RF. It appears that the 'big' camp won.
> 
> ...


It’s not too bad. And normally shoot with a DX2 lol! Yes, I would MUCH prefer Canon retain the 5D form factor and just push the sensor forward to make proper flange distance. Either way all the FF R bodies Im betting will share the same frame going forward (apart from the 1RX .... oooo!!! Crap did I just leak the name of the DX4 ?)


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Looks like everyone was discussing what concerns them the most. I was more concerned about the base ISO DR.



You specifically asked me about my prediction regarding high ISO noise.



> We've already gone through it in other threads. 2 stop difference is huge. 1.1 stops is quite noticeable.



You've offered this opinion but you've never actually offered photographic examples.



> But ok, here's an example. This image was shot using ETTR. Before editing, the rocks were almost completely black and the sky _looked _blown out (but wasn't).
> I lifted the shadows by about 1.5 stops. I'd have gotten very noisy shadows on a camera with s 2-stop poorer performance than my 5DIV.



Are you kidding? Do I need to pull out the 7D Zion shot with a 2.5ev shadow push? 1.5ev is within the DR of any camera made since...hell, I think my 10D could have handled it.



> No, DPRSplit tool doesn't really work, it often spoils highlights and can't be relied upon.



Never the less it pretty conclusively shows that the 5D IV being roughly 1ev behind the gen 3 A7's and Nikon D8x0's is due to the DPAF arrangement. That's bad news if you want Canon to match Sony on a chart because Canon is not abandoning DPAF.


----------



## Rule556 (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> It's just a categorization. Everything that is listed as an "art" in most lists involves creating the "thing" that's produced or reproduced in your head - except photography. To me, that's an indication there's something wrong with the categorization.



This is where we disagree. I work under the following paradigm: Art is not merely a category. It is also an action. An avocation. A drive. It is an abstract, subjective idea that the social sciences have been trying to define objectively, since the first shaman brushed ochre on the walls of their caves. It is the human desire to create. Art is not defined by the medium. It is not even defined by the artist. It is ultimately a human trait that is as varied as we are.

Personally, I use photography to highlight the beauty that is in the world that most people never stop to see. The way I compose an image highlights a scene in a specific way, to give a viewer a specific feeling. Wether I’m successful or not is irrelevant. It satisfies my desire to create something and evoke an emotion from another human. That’s art to me. The process. The ritual combination of skill, technology, imagination, and if you’re lucky, talent, that encompasses the actualization of the creative desire. 

I believe that it is hubris to think that we can define such an abstract and subjective human drive with objective evidence and logic. Yet, at the same time I understand the human desire to define complex systems.

I think people are just having a hard time with your definition because each of us perceives and defines art differently.

Ultimately we’re all photographers. Some of us just majored in liberal arts instead of computer engineering.


----------



## Rule556 (Jan 31, 2020)

Laslen said:


> *Canon Rumors:* Insane R5 specs
> 
> *CR commenters:* _Is photography art?_



Sometimes you just have to get philosophical in the face of uncertainty.


----------



## Otara (Jan 31, 2020)

This is one of those rumours where the main annoyance for me is how far away from the initial announcement it might be. I want to know now (stamps foot)!


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## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

A story in two parts

Shot:
​
Chaser:
​​- A


----------



## Rule556 (Jan 31, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Yeah. The ratio of keepers would be correct. 800 keepers out of 2000 frame in my case.


Those are great. Do you have a link? I’d love to see them.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> You specifically asked me about my prediction regarding high ISO noise.


I was responding to this message https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?threads/canon-eos-r5-specifications.38165/post-812879 and while you mentioned a high ISO value I didn't have an impression you were talking specifically about the high ISO range.



dtaylor said:


> Are you kidding? Do I need to pull out the 7D Zion shot with a 2.5ev shadow push?


No thanks, I know you have aces up your sleeves  But I've seen it already. I just have similar examples from say my old 70D and it produces much greater noise in the shadows. And 70D's DR is even slightly better than 7D.



dtaylor said:


> Never the less it pretty conclusively shows that the 5D IV being roughly 1ev behind the gen 3 A7's and Nikon D8x0's is due to the DPAF arrangement. That's bad news if you want Canon to match Sony on a chart because Canon is not abandoning DPAF.



I can't tell I'm happily happy with 5DIV performance but I'm ok with it. Still I think there's a room for improvement even with DPAF. If Canon releases a 80Mp camera with the same DR as 5DIV, it'll be satisfactory to me. The 45Mp one - not sure, I'll wait for reviews.


----------



## Grimbald (Jan 31, 2020)

davo said:


> 45 MP = poor high ISO performance???



I thought the same, but then again: The 90d had a big pump in resolution (about 33% more pixels) compared to the 80d and yet outperformes it's low light capabilites. I therefore hope that a 45MP will give similar if not better results than the low light performance of the 5d Mark IV.

Maybe it's also Canon's first BSI sensor? We know they have been putting alot of research into that and patented stuff years ago


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 31, 2020)

Grimbald said:


> I thought the same, but then again: The 90d had a big pump in resolution (about 33% more pixels) compared to the 80d and yet outperformes it's low light capabilites. I therefore hope that a 45MP will give similar if not better results than the low light performance of the 5d Mark IV.
> 
> Maybe it's also Canon's first BSI sensor? We know they have been putting alot of research into that and patented stuff years ago



I don't want similar, nor slightly better. Why to buy new camera at all then? We are ok with 30mpx. I think no wedding photogs would ask for more, or less, just a modest bump would be OK. We are also not a sports shooters, so I really don't care about the ultra-high framerate. We have top EF lens for the job given and even if we would start with R, we would still use those, as 5DIV would become our backup. So it mostly narrows down to focus capabilites (which are quite good with the 5DIV) and sensor performance. I would prefer staying with 30mpx and e.g. 1 stop better DR, than having 45 and something like equal or 1/3 of the stop range of an improvement ....


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

Grimbald said:


> I thought the same, but then again: The 90d had a big pump in resolution (about 33% more pixels) compared to the 80d and yet outperformes it's low light capabilites.



I also thought so until recently, but apparently there were initial incorrect measurements of 90D, current state looks like this


Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting



The sensors are identical, however 90D is still better as it has more resolution. But it's not as good as you might have thought.

On the other hand, the way they measure the 'photographic DR' makes DR of cropped sensors about 1 stop worse than FF. You can check A7RIV FF and crop mode, same sensor, but in crop mode they measure 1 stop worse. 




__





Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting






www.photonstophotos.net





So if you extrapolate 90D measurements to FF, you'll get roughly 5DIV performance but at 80Mp resolution.

So I'm still hoping the Canon's 80Mp RS will be as good as 5DIV, and 45Mp R5 may be even better in terms of the dynamic range. Also there's a chance they put even more advanced sensors in the R5 and RS.


----------



## Memdroid (Jan 31, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Yeah, and they charged $15,000 for the privilege of owning the only 4K camera available at the time.



I agree. But I don't think it was meant for the average joe either, just like the 1Dx is not everybodies cup of tea. Mostly by budgetary reasons.


----------



## bbb34 (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I haven't seen 850D images, but I've drawn the slot for the EOS R. Am I an artist now? Is it visually pleasing and does it convey emotions?
> 
> View attachment 188460



Now we know why you have become a photographer!


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> A new 90D? Enjoy your EOS M6 Mk III
> 
> - A



M6 mk II already better than a 90D ......... and who would have thought Canon would have come out with a M series that we are legit going to want a sequel to?

I kinda would like to see a new version of the removable EVF at some point.


----------



## reef58 (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Another reason why i believe DSLR development is now dead is how much development money Canon has spent on the 10 new R lenses. Probably millions. They have already amortized all the development costs of the EF lenses over the millions of lenses sold.
> 
> But they have sold few R lenses.
> 
> ...



DSLR's are still 50% or so of the market. Should they just abandon that? I have nothing to back it up, but I would bet most working pros are still using DSLR's. What I mean by that, more than 50%. Should they just throw in the towel of that also? They can handle both cameras with mirrors and cameras without.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 31, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> Those are great. Do you have a link? I’d love to see them.


thank you. I have got about 100 portraits out of nearly 800 taken during my Balinese project posted on my Facebook with public access. I will message you the address.


----------



## vjlex (Jan 31, 2020)

I've been wondering if the high-megapixel R won't get the R3 designation. Remember when we were all waiting for years for the EOS 3D to come in between the 1D and 5D? But because of the confusion calling a camera '3D' would have caused, it likely became the 5DS?


----------



## freejay (Jan 31, 2020)

Related to those, who always complain about the video specs and say they need no video features and don't want to pay for it: 

I'm pretty sure that the jump in possible frames per second, we have seen in the latest models, as well as more sophisticated object tracking, is a result of making the readout speeds of the sensor faster. And THIS - I'm pretty sure - was done mainly to allow faster frame rates and less rolling shutter in video in the first place. So: Development for video specs have a direct impact for the photographic oriented functions. This is all a win win. If you don't need it, ignore it. 

I for myself have never ever used white balance bracketing. I would never come up with the idea of complaining that they built in this functionality...


----------



## tron (Jan 31, 2020)

freejay said:


> Related to those, who always complain about the video specs and say they need no video features and don't want to pay for it:
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the jump in possible frames per second, we have seen in the latest models, as well as more sophisticated object tracking, is a result of making the readout speeds of the sensor faster. And THIS - I'm pretty sure - was done mainly to allow faster frame rates and less rolling shutter in video in the first place. So: Development for video specs have a direct impact for the photographic oriented functions. This is all a win win. If you don't need it, ignore it.
> 
> I for myself have never ever used white balance bracketing. I would never come up with the idea of complaining that they built in this functionality...


10fps speed existed many many years ago and certainly before video...


----------



## brad-man (Jan 31, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> M6 mk II already better than a 90D ......... and who would have thought Canon would have come out with a M series that we are legit going to want a sequel to?
> 
> I kinda would like to see a new version of the removable EVF at some point.


Me too. I'd like one that doesn't use the hot shoe...


----------



## Gazwas (Jan 31, 2020)

Now I'm over the disappointment of it not being an RS camera, I'm itching to see some pictures of the camera.

What do people think, just a carbon copy of the EOS R (nothing wrong with that) with some switched around buttons and dials or do you think we'll get a different designed of camera?

I'd love to see it like a mini 1D in design so we get an integrated vertical grip. Mirrorless cameras in general remind me on the old Olympus OM cameras where as I'd like them to be more a cross between EOS R and T90.


----------



## Gazwas (Jan 31, 2020)

How about this?


----------



## JohnC (Jan 31, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> M6 mk II already better than a 90D ......... and who would have thought Canon would have come out with a M series that we are legit going to want a sequel to?
> 
> I kinda would like to see a new version of the removable EVF at some point.



I have to admit, I bought the M6 Mark II as a bit of an afterthough... something that I could take with me just in case, etc. I have come to love shooting with the camera using the EVF with both native mount and adapted lenses. The 180L macro almost has TOO much reach to use handheld however. lol. so far I have done very little tripod work with it, but I find the shutter speeds, etc. needed to get sharp images very manageable despite all of the pixel density/can't hand hold things I've heard.


----------



## JohnC (Jan 31, 2020)

shunsai said:


> I've been wondering if the high-megapixel R won't get the R3 designation. Remember when we were all waiting for years for the EOS 3D to come in between the 1D and 5D? But because of the confusion calling a camera '3D' would have caused, it likely became the 5DS?



That would be interesting and I kind of hope it happens. I have the EOS 3, wouldn't mind having its eventual descendant.


----------



## JohnC (Jan 31, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> How about this?



that looks pretty good


----------



## JohnC (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> On the other hand, the way they measure the 'photographic DR' makes DR of cropped sensors about 1 stop worse than FF. You can check A7RIV FF and crop mode, same sensor, but in crop mode they measure 1 stop worse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have looked at all of that before, and I suppose they to have a way of normalizing the data from various sensors. In my opinion however, this doesn't actually tell you the dynamic range potential of the sensor itself.



> So if you extrapolate 90D measurements to FF, you'll get roughly 5DIV performance but at 80Mp resolution.
> 
> So I'm still hoping the Canon's 80Mp RS will be as good as 5DIV, and 45Mp R5 may be even better in terms of the dynamic range. Also there's a chance they put even more advanced sensors in the R5 and RS.



Exactly, me too. I have the M6 Mark II... I would love to see a full frame version of that sensor or close to it. I suppose I would be willing to give up a little resolution for a little larger pixel size. The sensor performs really well as is.


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I was responding to this message https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?threads/canon-eos-r5-specifications.38165/post-812879 and while you mentioned a high ISO value I didn't have an impression you were talking specifically about the high ISO range.



That post is entirely about high ISO and does not address DR at all.



> No thanks, I know you have aces up your sleeves  But I've seen it already.



Yet you still insist that 1.5ev is a difficult shadow push and that ~1ev difference between the 5D4 and best Sony/Nikon bodies is large. It's not large, it's a processing adjustment.



> Still I think there's a room for improvement even with DPAF.



Nikon set the bar with the D800 release, and that bar has barely moved in 8 years. There's something else going on at the circuit level, for the current state of the art, which has capped DR and done so in a counter intuitive manner. The highest DR sensors, when measured as sensors (i.e. normalized view size, DxO methodology), are the sensors with the smaller pixels. And everything has been sitting at sub-15ev for a while. I don't know enough about sensor engineering to speculate as to why. I just know the data has been remarkably consistent for 8 years.

So unless Canon is going to introduce something truly new in their sensor circuitry, the R5 sensor is going to deliver ~13.6ev. And if you process the DPAF data properly you find the circuitry is actually capable of ~14.6. (Again, DxO methodology.)

If you prefer Photons to Photos formula then there's not even 1ev of difference between the 5D4, D850, and A7r4 at ISO 100 (or even ISO 50 on the D850). A difference that literally disappears by ISO 200. If that bothers you then you need Nikon or Sony. But regardless of charts and methodology, I would be very hard pressed indeed to find or produce a scene where that difference would be apparent to viewers shown 20x30 prints with no labels.



> If Canon releases a 80Mp camera with the same DR as 5DIV, it'll be satisfactory to me. The 45Mp one - not sure, I'll wait for reviews.



In theory larger pixels should result in greater DR due to full well capacity. In practice that has not happened in 8 years.


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 31, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> I don't want similar, nor slightly better. Why to buy new camera at all then? We are ok with 30mpx. I think no wedding photogs would ask for more,



Everyone's different but I can tell you that the first wedding I shot at 50mp I looked at the files and thought 'I never want to go back.' Same thing with the first volleyball game I shot. Looking at the files any concerns over fps just went out the window. So I'm very happy to see the R5 at 45mp which, for all practical purposes, is an inconsequential difference from the 5Ds/sR. Well...as long as Canon doesn't cover it with a super strong AA filter.



> I would prefer staying with 30mpx and e.g. 1 stop better DR, than having 45 and something like equal or 1/3 of the stop range of an improvement ....



Over the past decade pixel size has not mattered (or mattered much) in terms of DR even though in theory it should. I would lay my bets right now that the R5 will have similar high ISO to a 5D4 (within 0.5ev, which is to be expected even from theory) and similar DR as well.


----------



## tron (Jan 31, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Everyone's different but I can tell you that the first wedding I shot at 50mp I looked at the files and thought 'I never want to go back.' Same thing with the first volleyball game I shot. Looking at the files any concerns over fps just went out the window. So I'm very happy to see the R5 at 45mp which, for all practical purposes, is an inconsequential difference from the 5Ds/sR. Well...as long as Canon doesn't cover it with a super strong AA filter.
> 
> 
> 
> Over the past decade pixel size has not mattered (or mattered much) in terms of DR even though in theory it should. I would lay my bets right now that the R5 will have similar high ISO to a 5D4 (within 0.5ev, which is to be expected even from theory) and similar DR as well.


 I hope it will have significant higher rates than EOS R for Servo mode AF


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

JohnC said:


> I suppose they to have a way of normalizing the data from various sensors. In my opinion however, this doesn't actually tell you the dynamic range potential of the sensor itself.



I roughly understand their method, but it measures some 'photographic' DR and an image from the very same sensor but cropped will have a lower DR, which is counter-intuitive.
However I use this site for _relative _comparison of same size sensors.
Absolute values are kinda arbitrary and useless there. Relative values do have some meaning imho.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 31, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> In theory larger pixels should result in greater DR due to full well capacity. In practice that has not happened in 8 years.



Sorry I'm in a rush and will try to answer later on.
But as to the pixel size, you need to compare the sensors of the same design and manufacturer. 
A7RIV has a poorer performance than A7RIII, presumably it has the same design but smaller pixels.
In Canon, I don't even know what to take for comparison.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

richperson said:


> Well, maybe not for everyone, but for me:
> 
> 1) ability to shoot high res photos at a reasonable fps to capture sports/dance/theater;
> 2) hopefully, an EVF experience that doesn't black out or freeze at 12 fps;
> ...



Three of those four (2-4) are wishful thinking.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Hang on D60 was announced in 2002 and was replaced by 10D in 2003.
> I couldn't find D6 but there was D6000 in 1998, but it was well before 10D.


You are correct. It was D60 ... back when Canon put the letter D before the number. Like Nikon. Canon switched is naming convention for DSLRs with the 10D intro. All that was more recently than I had recalled. Lots of progress in a short time.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> M6 mk II already better than a 90D ......... and who would have thought Canon would have come out with a M series that we are legit going to want a sequel to?
> 
> I kinda would like to see a new version of the removable EVF at some point.




1) When the 90D is not replaced in its normal timeframe, it will be 2 years from now.

2) SLR devotees begrudgingly accepting the end of times for the mirror at their price point will not buy an aging camera. They'll buy something new and jazzy so that they can feel good about why they made the move.

Hence: They will buy M6 Mk III, not II. Or an R7 if it happens.

- A


----------



## Gazwas (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Sorry I'm in a rush and will try to answer later on.
> But as to the pixel size, you need to compare the sensors of the same design and manufacturer.
> A7RIV has a poorer performance than A7RIII, presumably it has the same design but smaller pixels.
> In Canon, I don't even know what to take for comparison.


In what way is the Sony A7RIV worse than the A7RIII in the real world other than for file size?

More resolution so more detail, practically the same DR (according to DXOMARK), and very similar grain structure at low ISO (IV ever so slighly worst than the RIII). Looks like win win to me?

Look, I know some people will now show me a load of maths to prove thier point however, this doesn't alter the fact I just don't see any negatives in real photos given the extra 20MP.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I appreciate the clarification. I respectfully disagree.
> 
> I still think the 1-series and to a lesser degree the 5-series will see a few more mirrored updates.
> 
> ...


I imagine the quality and performance of the EVF will have a lot to do with how long Canon needs to keep DSLRs in the lineup. But even if, at this point, OVF has some advantage, how big is the market for another 5D iteration and EF glass ... knowing that you’re buying the end of the line. Canon wouldcarefully examine a lot of data on this tofigure out the trade offs.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> I imagine the quality and performance of the EVF will have a lot to do with how long Canon needs to keep DSLRs in the lineup.



True. Right now they're all so bad I consider them unusable. If this camera has the same EVF quality, I wouldn't pay $1 for it.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I also thought so until recently, but apparently there were initial incorrect measurements of 90D, current state looks like this
> 
> 
> Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting




Canon made the on-chip ADC move and every camera that got this got a nice 1.5 - 2 stop boost in the base ISO neighborhood when they did (see links below).

70D --> 80D
5D3 --> 5D4
1DX1 --> 1DX2

As Bill from PTP says, the plot loses the hockey stick shape and becomes more or less a straight line.

But this notion that we'll get this sort of bump each gen of sensor is nuts. This was a one time really big boost -- think of it a market parity chiropractic re-alignment. It will not happen again* in big chunks unless Canon makes yet another once-every-10-years sort of sensor architecture change. I don't see it happening soon.

Unless you are in the 6D / RP market segment -- because you've never gotten an on-chip sensor before.

- A


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> True. Right now they're all so bad I consider them unusable. If this camera has the same EVF quality, I wouldn't pay $1 for it.


Hang on there... not even a $1? Okaaaay


----------



## BillB (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Three of those four (2-4) are wishful thinking.


if you have a thousand posts in a thread, there is bound to be a lot of wishful thinking.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Hang on there... not even a $1? Okaaaay



Well, not if I had to use it. What's the point in paying anything for something you can't use?


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jan 31, 2020)

brad-man said:


> Does that make more economic sense than discontinuing the most (arguably) successful line of cameras and lenses ever created while people still want to buy them?




Totally agree. It's funny how on the web and forums people would just discontinue any EF development from one day to another.
Canon probably is smarter than that because it would be bad for reputation and still brings tons on money.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Canon made the on-chip ADC move and every camera that got this got a nice 1.5 - 2 stop boost in the base ISO neighborhood when they did (see links below).
> 
> 70D --> 80D
> 5D3 --> 5D4
> ...



Exactly. Eliminating all that noise induced along what used to be the signal path between sensor and ADC on the older cameras is what largely jumped the DR. I think most of these upper level cameras now are all about in the same range within a stop or so at least at base ISOs. I think this DR issue needs to be retired for the most part.


----------



## tron (Jan 31, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> M6 mk II already better than a 90D ......... and who would have thought Canon would have come out with a M series that we are legit going to want a sequel to?
> 
> I kinda would like to see a new version of the removable EVF at some point.


This is your interpretation:









Should I Get the Canon EOS 90D or the Canon EOS M6 Mark II


Should I Get the Canon EOS 90D or the Canon EOS M6 Mark II — The-Digital-Picture.com




www.the-digital-picture.com













Canon 90D vs Canon M6 MII Detailed Comparison


Read our detailed comparison of the Canon EOS 90D vs Canon EOS M6 Mark II to find out their strengths and weaknesses, and decide which one to choose.



cameradecision.com





And anyway better for what kind of shooting?


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## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Canon made the on-chip ADC move and every camera that got this got a nice 1.5 - 2 stop boost in the base ISO neighborhood when they did (see links below).
> 
> 70D --> 80D
> 5D3 --> 5D4
> 1DX1 --> 1DX2



I have a 7D mark II and an 80D. Though the 80D does have less read noise than the 7D mark II, it also has more banding, making any extra DR it supposedly has useless. I can actually pull more out of the shadows before noise becomes distracting from the 7D mark II because banding is so distracting.


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## Go Wild (Jan 31, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> In what way is the Sony A7RIV worse than the A7RIII in the real world other than for file size?
> 
> More resolution so more detail, practically the same DR (according to DXOMARK), and very similar grain structure at low ISO (IV ever so slighly worst than the RIII). Looks like win win to me?
> 
> Look, I know some people will now show me a load of maths to prove thier point however, this doesn't alter the fact I just don't see any negatives in real photos given the extra 20MP.



You are correct, Sony A7r4 it has more definition due to the extra 20mp. Is it notorious? Well...it´s not very notorious but it´s there.

Negative points of having extra MP? There are not! If you don´t need them, you don´t buy it. If you need them you buy extra space in external discs. No one that need extra MP will complain about harddrive space.

There are 2 things though that you need to be aware, when you photograph with high MP sensors you need to bem extra carefull with shutterspeed and imperfections because everything will become more notorious. It´s common people that are use to lower mp sensors to have problems with no so crisp images and that most of the times is due to incorrect shutter speed. Other thing is ISO performance. It´s not very different from 42mp sensor, but the 60mp sensor of the A7r4 doesn´t have so good iso performance than a7r3. 

So, if the question is, "should you get a higher MP camera"? Well in most of the cases, yes! In some cases like sports or photojournalism, you may not need so much because it will slow down your workflow, but...even sports photographers may benefict with higher MP. In other photo types, better resolution means better photos, evenif you dont need to print big. so the extra MP will be very well received. 

I believe the 45 mp from this EOS R5 camera is a very sweet spot! It´s not too much and delivers you what you need in resolution! If you need more than this...you mustgo for the medium format cameras or wait for the 75mp camera from Canon (if ever will come).


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## tron (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I have a 7D mark II and an 80D. Though the 80D does have less read noise than the 7D mark II, it also has more banding, making any extra DR it supposedly has useless. I can actually pull more out of the shadows before noise becomes distracting from the 7D mark II because banding is so distracting.


Ooops interesting info. I wonder if the same applies for 90D. I guess this happens in rather extreme lighting and in normal medium iso shooting (birds) this is not an issue anyway.


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## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Exactly. Eliminating all that noise induced along what used to be the signal path between sensor and ADC on the older cameras is what largely jumped the DR. I think most of these upper level cameras now are all about in the same range within a stop or so at least at base ISOs. I think this DR issue needs to be retired for the most part.




For the most part = unless you own a 6D2 or RP.

Here's a 7-8 year old entry level FF sensor vs. the architecture in the RP. These cavernous differences (that folks endlessly used to whinge about here) are supposed to be a thing of the past, but Canon has this nutty habit of being Canon.




- A


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## tron (Jan 31, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> You are correct, Sony A7r4 it has more definition due to the extra 20mp. Is it notorious? Well...it´s not very notorious but it´s there.
> 
> Negative points of having extra MP? There are not! If you don´t need them, you don´t buy it. If you need them you buy extra space in external discs. No one that need extra MP will complain about harddrive space.
> 
> ...


I agree R5 seems like a consolidation camera (R/5D4+5DsR) assuming it has ... 2 slots (OK I am sure it will)


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## AEWest (Jan 31, 2020)

reef58 said:


> DSLR's are still 50% or so of the market. Should they just abandon that? I have nothing to back it up, but I would bet most working pros are still using DSLR's. What I mean by that, more than 50%. Should they just throw in the towel of that also? They can handle both cameras with mirrors and cameras without.



But Canon already has thrown in the towel on the EF mount - they are only working on R glass and have said so. So if I'm a photographer looking for a new camera, why would I buy into obsolecense?

I expect a few more R lenses this year including smaller F4 variants. So say there are a total of 15 R lenses by end of year. Yet if I buy a DSLR, I have no access to any of them. No chance of ever buying the compact 70-200 2.8. 

Yet if I have an extensive EF lens collection, I can still use them seamlessly with a very compact adapter on an R mount camera. 

This is obviously what Canon's game plan is. That is why to me it makes no sense to make a new 5D when they are about to announce the R5. I predict that the R5 is the new 5D.


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## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

tron said:


> I agree R5 seems like a consolidation camera (R/5D4+5DsR) assuming if has ... 2 slots (OK I am sure it will)




Consolidation is a downgrade for 5DS users in the #1 metric they care about.

Resolution remains (behind a 1-series build) the #1 driver of asking price for all three major FF manufacturers.

I think a higher yet res rig is surely coming, and the R5 (if real) will at some point have a 5D5 spec'd very similarly to it.

- A


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## Michael Clark (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> At least. Will current 1-series sports sideline folks even try messing around with adaptors? Won't they wait for native RF superteles?
> 
> Photojournos, on the other hand, I could see living with the holy trinity 2.8 zooms already out there. I still think they are first marines on the beach when it comes to high speed 1-series build mirrorless adoption.
> 
> - A



They mess around with extenders all the time. They'll wait until they're happy with the state of Canon's EVF and tracking performance in burst mode at a frame rate they consider usable.

Most PJs only update every other body or so. I know one that is still shooting major college football (in the town with the most successful program in the country for the last decade) with an old EF 400mm f/2.8 IS ("Mark I"). They don't replace big glass until it can't be fixed.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> I believe that it is hubris to think that we can define such an abstract and subjective human drive with objective evidence and logic.



This argument, to me, is the same as throwing up your hands and giving up.

Language is about precision. If you can't define the term, the term has no meaning.



> Yet, at the same time I understand the human desire to define complex systems.



Oh good.


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## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> But Canon already has thrown in the towel on the EF mount - they are only working on R glass and have said so. So if I'm a photographer looking for a new camera, why would I buy into obsolecense?




EF glass is still in full production, dwarfs RF's ability to serve all your needs today, and -- by the way -- works seamlessly on RF. 

And any body you buy is on some 3,5,7 year arc of usefulness no matter what design it is. Any new camera you buy today will be replaced long before EF ends production.

So I see the decision to buy an SLR vs. mirrorless as one of personal preference with little to no downside in choosing either. SLRs excel in some areas mirrorless never will, and vice versa. Get the tool you need.

- A


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## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I dare you to stand face to face with Kubrick's ghost and say that. Have you ever seen "2001?"



As I've said above, if the photographer creates the scene,, and not just a picture of a scene, then it's more reasonable to categorize it as art. This is rare because most photographers don't have the money of a feature film production to create their own scenes.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> EF glass is still in full production, dwarfs RF's ability to serve all your needs today, and -- by the way -- works seamlessly on RF.



Kind of. I have four crop-only lenses and one EF lens I'd only use in crop-mode. Even this supposed 45MP camera wouldn't produce the resolution I get from my 7D Mark II, at likely twice the price. 

I did a little checking. Replacing my lens-kit with reasonable selections from the R-line would cost me $8,200 at retail prices - in addition to the price of the camera. Yeah, it would have a bit more capability (excluding the lack of a decent viewfinder), but there's no way I'm paying as much as a good used car to get back what I already have.


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## tron (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Consolidation is a downgrade for 5DS users in the #1 metric they care about.
> 
> Resolution remains (behind a 1-series build) the #1 driver of asking price for all three major FF manufacturers.
> 
> ...


The same happened with 1 series. I use 5DsR but since I use it for birding I will continue using it. But 10% less megapixels which mean about 5% less resolution is not something to cry about if someone gets better DR and better high iso performance not to mention more than double the fps (assuming they remain the same for AI Servo). Yes a higher res camera most probably is coming but its resolution will be an upgrade of the resolution of 5DsR (I do not say direct upgrade because for me who shoots birds upgrade means 5DsRII and nothing else). Still to me the R5 consolidates the two I mentioned. I agree about 5D5 which by the way will probably make me upgrade my 5D4 (this will be an upgrade  ).


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## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> But Canon already has thrown in the towel on the EF mount - they are only working on R glass and have said so. So if I'm a photographer looking for a new camera, why would I buy into obsolecense?
> 
> I expect a few more R lenses this year including smaller F4 variants. So say there are a total of 15 R lenses by end of year. Yet if I buy a DSLR, I have no access to any of them. No chance of ever buying the compact 70-200 2.8.
> 
> ...


An exception would be if Canon updated the 5D with an RF mount. All the EF glass could still be used and the new 5D would keep the OVF and DSLR handling and ergonomics that many seem to desire. Then Canon let’s the buyers decide, but still moves to exclusive RF Mount. That lets 5D users begin investing in RF glass moving forward.


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## Rule556 (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> This argument, to me, is the same as throwing up your hands and giving up.
> 
> Language is about precision. If you can't define the term, the term has no meaning.



We‘ll just have to agree to disagree about that. What’s meaningless to one is not meaningless to another. I know what art means to me, and it’s okay that you don‘t share my view.

Not everything in this life can be described by a mathematical model.


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## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> An exception would be if Canon updated the 5D with an RF mount. All the EF glass could still be used and the new 5D would keep the OVF and DSLR handling and ergonomics that many seem to desire. Then Canon let’s the buyers decide, but still moves to exclusive RF Mount. That lets 5D users begin investing in RF glass moving forward.




RF mount and mirrorbox (and by extension an OVF) cannot co-exist.

Unless you are proposing putting an RF mount further in front of hte sensor than it is today (to leave room for the mirror), in which case neither EF nor RF would work properly -- they'd be the wrong distance from the sensor, wouldn't they?

Big chunky 5D body/grip/controls with an RF mount? Doable. Many would love it. But the mirror and OVF must die to do that.

RF mount at EF flange distance? Not doable unless you want to use all RF and EF glass as if it were on an extension tubes.

- A


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## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> We‘ll just have to agree to disagree about that. What’s meaningless to one is not meaningless to another. I know what art means to me, and it’s okay that you don‘t share my view.
> 
> Not everything in this life can be described by a mathematical model.



We're not talking about math, we're talking about language.


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## amorse (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> RF mount and mirrorbox (and by extension an OVF) cannot co-exist.
> 
> Unless you are proposing putting an RF mount further in front of hte sensor than it is today (to leave room for the mirror), in which case neither EF nor RF would work properly -- they'd be the wrong distance from the sensor, wouldn't they?
> 
> ...


Well, you could do both in one body using a hybrid mount/hybrid viewfinder and different modes for RF and EF: i.e. if the sensor was on rails and could advance or retreat to match the appropriate flange distance, and an EVF was behind the pentaprism in the eyepiece. Obviously RF mode would need the mirror to get out of the way for the sensor to move forward. Is it possible? Probably. Is it likely? nah, probably not.


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## bluediablo (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> We're not talking about math, we're talking about language.


Art is language.


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## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

amorse said:


> Well, you could do both in one body using a hybrid mount/hybrid viewfinder and different modes for RF and EF: i.e. if the sensor was on rails and could advance or retreat to match the appropriate flange distance, and an EVF was behind the pentaprism in the eyepiece. Obviously RF mode would need the mirror to get out of the way for the sensor to move forward. Is it possible? Probably. Is it likely? nah, probably not.




Oh sure, if:

We're going to have a front-to-back sliding sensor
RF lenses will all be redesigned to resolve at the EF flange distance,
RF lenses mount next to the EF mount with a second sensor
Then, sure, it's doable. But I thought pulling a Q and changing the gravitational constant of the universe was not an option.

- A


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## Ozarker (Jan 31, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> thank you. I have got about 100 portraits out of nearly 800 taken during my Balinese project posted on my Facebook with public access. I will message you the address.
> 
> 
> View attachment 188463


Simply wonderful!


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## amorse (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> For the most part = unless you own a 6D2 or RP.
> 
> Here's a 7-8 year old entry level FF sensor vs. the architecture in the RP. These cavernous differences (that folks endlessly used to whinge about here) are supposed to be a thing of the past, but Canon has this nutty habit of being Canon.
> 
> ...


I moved from a 6D to a 5D IV and noticed an improvement in DR, at least superficially. I had wanted to shoot a few demanding scenes side by side to see what a difference like this actually means in practice for my style of shooting, but unfortunately I sold the 6D when I bought the 5DIV, so I'd consider my experience anecdotal. I'd say with the 5D I have been very satisfied, but again despite all the charts in the world, I would still love to compare side by sides to get an honest feel for where DR or recovery capacity does and does not matter. Further to that, I've found a lot of users that really pushing the edges of exposure in other manufacturers' bodies are retaining quite a lot on the highlight end, but I find the outcome from that to be really unappealing - I don't know how to describe it, but it seems... yucky. Maybe it's just a processing decision others make, but for now I have the impression that even using a body with greater capacity for recovery, I'd still prefer to use two exposures and blend them than stretch the exposure too far on either side of the histogram anyway.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 31, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Simply wonderful!


many thanks. your opinion is important to me.


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## amorse (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Oh sure, if:
> 
> We're going to have a front-to-back sliding sensor
> RF lenses will all be redesigned to resolve at the EF flange distance,
> ...


Honestly, I do think a front to back sliding sensor is possible - but all that extra movement would make me a bit nervous on life of the sensor moving system, or introducing more opportunity for vibration in the body. But if I were to imagine a camera that could use both EF and RF without an adapter, that's how it'd look.


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## $winter (Jan 31, 2020)

amorse said:


> Honestly, I do think a front to back sliding sensor is possible - but all that extra movement would make me a bit nervous on life of the sensor moving system, or introducing more opportunity for vibration in the body. But if I were to imagine a camera that could use both EF and RF without an adapter, that's how it'd look.



Theoretically Canon produce that easy, but they like more that we buy 2 cameras


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## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

bluediablo said:


> Art is language.



Really? My post confused you THAT much?


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## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> An exception would be if Canon updated the 5D with an RF mount. All the EF glass could still be used and the new 5D would keep the OVF and DSLR handling and ergonomics that many seem to desire. Then Canon let’s the buyers decide, but still moves to exclusive RF Mount. That lets 5D users begin investing in RF glass moving forward.


That physically cant happen. Not with a mirror box in there. Its not about the mount itself. It’s the depth of the sensor in relation to the mount. Thats flange distance. For RF lenses to work the rear elements have to be closer to the sensor than EF glass, which cant happen with a mirror in the way. That’s why you CAN adapt EF to RF but NOT RF glass to EF mounts. And you can't use a rail to slide it if you have an OVF in the way. We have disccused the possibility of the rail before but using an EVF, not OVF. Because the Mirror and pentaprism would still have to be gone to make it work. in reality I htink they closest thing to that is precisely what we have now. An R body that comes with an EF adapter mount


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## AEWest (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> An exception would be if Canon updated the 5D with an RF mount. All the EF glass could still be used and the new 5D would keep the OVF and DSLR handling and ergonomics that many seem to desire. Then Canon let’s the buyers decide, but still moves to exclusive RF Mount. That lets 5D users begin investing in RF glass moving forward.



That is not possible. RF has a very close flange to sensor distance for focusing - EF has much longer distance. So that is why you can have an R to EF adapter (or spacer) but not vice versa. You can't have a negative spacer.


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## amorse (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> That physically cant happen. Not with a mirror box in there. Its not about the mount itself. It’s the depth of the sensor in relation to the mount. Thats flange distance. For RF lenses to work the rear elements have to be closer to the sensor than EF glass, which cant happen with a mirror in the way. That’s why you CAN adapt EF to RF but NOT RF glass to EF mounts. And you can't use a rail to slide it if you have an OVF in the way. We have disccused the possibility of the rail before but using an EVF, not OVF. Because the Mirror and pentaprism would still have to be gone to make it work. in reality I htink they closest thing to that is precisely what we have now. An R body that comes with an EF adapter mount


Canon did have a patent application for a hybrid viewfinder in 2017 where an EVF moves up with the mirror to show through the pentaprism still - https://www.canonrumors.com/patent-canon-application-for-a-hybrid-viewfinder/

Who knows what that sort of system could deliver in terms of reliability though or whether or not it could be commercially viable.


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## peters (Jan 31, 2020)

These Specs are just PERFECT. It reads like a wishlist... 
But I personaly have trouble to belive it. Especialy the 4k 120 and 8k part. The 1DX III is not even able to do this (4k120) and this camera is pretty much highend, with a big body and a highend processor. Its hard to imagine that they made such an incredible jump in performance between the EOS R and the R5. But one can hope


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## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

amorse said:


> Further to that, I've found a lot of users that really pushing the edges of exposure in other manufacturers' bodies are retaining quite a lot on the highlight end, but I find the outcome from that to be really unappealing - I don't know how to describe it, but it seems... yucky. Maybe it's just a processing decision others make, but for now I have the impression that even using a body with greater capacity for recovery, I'd still prefer to use two exposures and blend them than stretch the exposure too far on either side of the histogram anyway.




My principal method of shooting is run and gun; I just capture my life, family and travels. I love tripod landscape but that's less than 3% of what and how I shoot.

So when I am out running around handheld, DR is really nice to have to capture some scenes under very difficult lighting. So I'm always shooting RAW+JPG and the odd difficultly lit shot gets the 'One shot HDR' horrible RAW file war crimes done to it (-80 or -90 highlights, +30 shadows in ACR). It's a pain to do, it's not always easy on the eyes, etc. but some shots simply require it. I rarely can wait for better light or setup on a tripod and composite these scenes.

Below was a handheld hiking shot at Zion. This is a classic example of 'What I had to do is not good, but it is better than if I didn't do it.' In hindsight, I wouldn't have pushed the shadows so much -- it looks flat as a result.




So as much as relying on more base ISO DR is a crutch, it's a crutch I would like as a 5D3 owner (still slinging around that old off-chip architecture).

Also, this is a painful reminder that someone my age (not remotely old enough to give up on learning new tricks) needs to stop processing photos like an idiot with global adjustments in ACR.

- A


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## richperson (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Because having a body built for a native mount is still ergonomically superior to slapping on an adapter and the crowd of 5D users is one Canon caters their pro business to.



I totally understand your point. It just seems like we would be hearing about the 5D5 first, and the the R5 later if there was a 5D5. At some point Canon will likely switch the 5D and 1D lines too mirrorless. That may be a decade from now, or they may start the with the 5D line first. To me, the only real barrier is the EVF response and blackout. If they have solved that, then I don't see much of a disadvantage other than the adapter.


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## amorse (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> My principal method of shooting is run and gun; I just capture my life, family and travels. I love tripod landscape but that's less than 3% of what and how I shoot.
> 
> So when I am out running around handheld, DR is really nice to have to capture some scenes under very difficult lighting. So I'm always shooting RAW+JPG and the odd difficultly lit shot gets the 'One shot HDR' horrible RAW file war crimes done to it (-80 or -90 highlights, +30 shadows in ACR). It's a pain to do, it's not always easy on the eyes, etc. but some shots simply require it. I rarely can wait for better light or setup on a tripod and composite these scenes.
> 
> ...


I really don't think the outcome was bad! It looks like it recovered quite well and it doesn't look too flat. I like it! 

I've been in those situations too - I've in the past flipped over to burst mode, bracketed and then manually blended where feasible. I guess my biggest thing is looking at shots out of Nikons where they don't clip the highlights but are close, especially in sunsets, I find the yellows that come out of big highlight recoveries get some weird saturation in it - maybe too much green or something. That, however, may just be the user error - I'm not the one editing those so it's tough to say. I think I just need to see them side by side in a scene I have complete control over to really know how it would affect my style of photography.


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## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

richperson said:


> I totally understand your point. It just seems like we would be hearing about the 5D5 first, and the the R5 later if there was a 5D5. At some point Canon will likely switch the 5D and 1D lines too mirrorless. That may be a decade from now, or they may start the with the 5D line first. To me, the only real barrier is the EVF response and blackout. If they have solved that, then I don't see much of a disadvantage other than the adapter.




There's 100% going to be a 5D5. The mirrorless beast will feed on other product lines before that one goes.

And 1-series will lose their mirrors last of all.

Mirrorless will consume the mirrored product lines, I concede, but not in some 1-2 year frantic purge. A few may already have happened (no 7D3, no 5DS2 possibly, etc.), but I see this ultimately taking place over a period of numerous product cycles -- think 10 years, not two.

- A


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## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

peters said:


> These Specs are just PERFECT. It reads like a wishlist...
> But I personaly have trouble to belive it. Especialy the 4k 120 and 8k part. The 1DX III is not even able to do this (4k120) and this camera is pretty much highend, with a big body and a highend processor. Its hard to imagine that they made such an incredible jump in performance between the EOS R and the R5. But one can hope



Way up this chain I mentioned a few possible caveats to these specs. 4k120 wont come without an extreme crop factor AND likely will be EXTERNAL only because of the heat issue. The 30MP EOS R and 5D4 sensor does 1:1 4K at a 1.75x crop. Going to 45MP, it gets even crazier. Your 35mm lens will now be 100mm. IF IF IF IF Canon manages to get a FF readout at THAT resolution (45MP) at even 60fps it would be something special. The Sony A7R3 is 42MP and can't break 30fps and that's using a low-rent garbage codec internally. Even externally its at 30fps. And that's FF readout. The unreleased A7R4 is on the way with 60MP+ and that records 4K in an oversampled crop APS-C in 6K that compresses down to 4K. THAT tops out at 30fps. IF IF IF Canon has managed to beat THAT spec EVEN WITH A CROP... it's astonishing. So maaaaaaaaybe Canon gets APS-C at 4k60 (downsampled from a 6k sensor area like the sony), but there's no flipping way at 4k120, which means 1:1 pixel readout for that which would be a staggering crop factor. WHICH IS FINE considering it can even do it. You just wont be able to do wide shots because even a 16mm lens would still put you at about 40mm equivalent in that crop.


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## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

richperson said:


> I totally understand your point. It just seems like we would be hearing about the 5D5 first, and the the R5 later if there was a 5D5. At some point Canon will likely switch the 5D and 1D lines too mirrorless. That may be a decade from now, or they may start the with the 5D line first. To me, the only real barrier is the EVF response and blackout. If they have solved that, then I don't see much of a disadvantage other than the adapter.




And as far as 5D5 coming out first, I hear you. But 5D5 devotees have the 5D4 or 5D3 today, which are not exactly chopped liver. But mirrorless FF users have little right now other than the 5D4 sensor -- they lack a beefy/pro/2 card/high spec sort of product for daily professional use.

So I understand why Canon is fleshing out RF with a bit more urgency right now. They have to.

- A


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## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

richperson said:


> I totally understand your point. It just seems like we would be hearing about the 5D5 first, and the the R5 later if there was a 5D5. At some point Canon will likely switch the 5D and 1D lines too mirrorless. That may be a decade from now, or they may start the with the 5D line first. To me, the only real barrier is the EVF response and blackout. If they have solved that, then I don't see much of a disadvantage other than the adapter.


Canon even has admitted in the recent Q4 financials they were late to this game and are going to push R HARD now. So that backseats the 5D5 this year. And the EVF on my EOS R seems to do exceptionally well so far as lag.


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## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon even has admitted in the recent Q4 financials they were late to this game and are going to push R HARD now. So that backseats the 5D5 this year. And the EVF on my EOS R seems to do exceptionally well so far as lag.



I tried the R and the RP. The lag was horrible and the view of moving subjects was blurry. Both crushed blacks and blew out whites.

What are people like me who greatly value instant feedback supposed to do when these EVFs are so unusable for us?


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## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I tried the R and the RP. The lag was horrible and the view of moving subjects was blurry. Both crushed blacks and blew out whites.
> 
> What are people like me who greatly value instant feedback supposed to do when these EVFs are so unusable for us?


Well I'll admit, the only occasions Ive used the EVF for pictures (as opposed to video) have been relatively still subject matter, and I also still use the Histogram regardless to judge exposure (kinda ignore what I'm seeing in whatever VF Im using). Most of my use for that particular camera in my Canon family has been video and I'm using an external monitor/recorder anyway


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## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Well I'll admit, the only occasions Ive used the EVF for pictures (as opposed to video) have been relatively still subject matter, and I also still use the Histogram regardless to judge exposure (kinda ignore what I'm seeing in whatever VF Im using). Most of my use for that particular camera in my Canon family has been video and I'm using an external monitor/recorder anyway



Okay. More than 90% of what I shoot is moving, and moving fast, and less than 1% of what I shoot is video. On my cameras that do have an EVF, I shut off all the information (live histogram, etc.) because I find it distracting to have that stuff on top of the scene.


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## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> RF mount and mirrorbox (and by extension an OVF) cannot co-exist.
> 
> Unless you are proposing putting an RF mount further in front of hte sensor than it is today (to leave room for the mirror), in which case neither EF nor RF would work properly -- they'd be the wrong distance from the sensor, wouldn't they?
> 
> ...


Ah, yes, I forgot about the mirror box necessary for the OVF. so I’m just wrong on that. Thanks for calling that out.


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> That physically cant happen. Not with a mirror box in there. Its not about the mount itself. It’s the depth of the sensor in relation to the mount. Thats flange distance. For RF lenses to work the rear elements have to be closer to the sensor than EF glass, which cant happen with a mirror in the way. That’s why you CAN adapt EF to RF but NOT RF glass to EF mounts. And you can't use a rail to slide it if you have an OVF in the way. We have disccused the possibility of the rail before but using an EVF, not OVF. Because the Mirror and pentaprism would still have to be gone to make it work. in reality I htink they closest thing to that is precisely what we have now. An R body that comes with an EF adapter mount


You’re right. I stand corrected.


----------



## Go Wild (Jan 31, 2020)

tron said:


> I agree R5 seems like a consolidation camera (R/5D4+5DsR) assuming if has ... 2 slots (OK I am sure it will)



Well, it´s on the rumors dual card slots and i think this is a "must have" no way Canon will do a High end camera without dual card slots.




ahsanford said:


> Consolidation is a downgrade for 5DS users in the #1 metric they care about.
> 
> Resolution remains (behind a 1-series build) the #1 driver of asking price for all three major FF manufacturers.
> 
> ...



How come a camera only be classified because the MP number? How can this R5 (if you assume that this one is a substitute of the 5ds) can be considered a downgrade or not to consider an upgrade? 

Let´s see....45MP or 50MP is practically the same. It has less MP sure, but not noticeable in final result. If the camera comes with a new low pass filter you can merge the 2 versions of the 5ds in one and have the best of both. High increase of fps! High increase of video. Possibly increase in DN and overall increase in image quality due to superior sensor. I can see this as an upgrade even if the MP number is slight lower. 

However, I don´t consider this camera a replace of the 5DS and 5ds R. This may not be the top MP camera from Canon. Also because they surely want to beat Sony on this and get the 1st place in the MP war. So maybe we need to wait a bit longer to get that EOS R camera with the 75MP sensor. 

If MP means a lot to you, then yes you wont consider this R5 and wait for the other camera. However, if I was a 5D owner I could see this R5 as a potencial substitute for the 5Ds. But that´s just me, it´s pretty much a matter of personal use/opinion and no one is wrong of course!


----------



## mattshaheen (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I tried the R and the RP. The lag was horrible and the view of moving subjects was blurry. Both crushed blacks and blew out whites.
> 
> What are people like me who greatly value instant feedback supposed to do when these EVFs are so unusable for us?



Sounds like you might have had the EVF set to power saving mode. I think it comes set like this by default, once I changed it it was great as far as lag and trails are concerned. It’s definitely a little too contrasty for my taste but nothing that totally ruins an image for me or anything.


----------



## Southstorm (Jan 31, 2020)

For a good R5 Rumor Laugh...


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

mattshaheen said:


> Sounds like you might have had the EVF set to power saving mode. I think it comes set like this by default, once I changed it it was great as far as lag and trails are concerned. It’s definitely a little too contrasty for my taste but nothing that totally ruins an image for me or anything.



When i pointed it at a window in the store, the entirety of the outside was white. When I looked under a desk, the entire area was solid black.


----------



## peters (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Way up this chain I mentioned a few possible caveats to these specs. 4k120 wont come without an extreme crop factor AND likely will be EXTERNAL only because of the heat issue. The 30MP EOS R and 5D4 sensor does 1:1 4K at a 1.75x crop. Going to 45MP, it gets even crazier. Your 35mm lens will now be 100mm. IF IF IF IF Canon manages to get a FF readout at THAT resolution (45MP) at even 60fps it would be something special. The Sony A7R3 is 42MP and can't break 30fps and that's using a low-rent garbage codec internally. Even externally its at 30fps. And that's FF readout. The unreleased A7R4 is on the way with 60MP+ and that records 4K in an oversampled crop APS-C in 6K that compresses down to 4K. THAT tops out at 30fps. IF IF IF Canon has managed to beat THAT spec EVEN WITH A CROP... it's astonishing. So maaaaaaaaybe Canon gets APS-C at 4k60 (downsampled from a 6k sensor area like the sony), but there's no flipping way at 4k120, which means 1:1 pixel readout for that which would be a staggering crop factor. WHICH IS FINE considering it can even do it. You just wont be able to do wide shots because even a 16mm lens would still put you at about 40mm equivalent in that crop.


Ah, I didnt considered this. The idea of an insane crop to simply use 1:1 sensor readout indeed sounds very much like canon  I guess IF Canon realy offers these insane resolutions/framerates, it will come certainly with a lot of strange caveats. DPAF is also very likely to be not available.

But somehow its still hard to belive that they will offer 4k120. time will tell. 

All I want:
More than 30mpixel
4k60 on Fullframe with DPAF
Dual Card Slot.
If they also include IBIS, it would be incredible great and an instant buy  <3


----------



## Architect1776 (Jan 31, 2020)

Kit. said:


> 1Ds was the first camera that could match DR and color reproduction of 35mm ISO100 film.



And still is a very capable camera.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 31, 2020)

tron said:


> I agree R5 seems like a consolidation camera (R/5D4+5DsR)...



Well, I believe Canon Rumors Guy has said that a 5D V is also planned for this year so I would expect we will see this same sensor in the next 5D generation. Canon is not ready to abandon the 5D just yet.


----------



## deleteme (Jan 31, 2020)

mattshaheen said:


> Sounds like you might have had the EVF set to power saving mode. I think it comes set like this by default, once I changed it it was great as far as lag and trails are concerned. It’s definitely a little too contrasty for my taste but nothing that totally ruins an image for me or anything.


I have to agree with Lee, I have tweaked every possible setting for my EVF and it still falls very far behind my friend's A-9. THAT camera is a joy to use in bright sun. My R, not so much.


----------



## Rule556 (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> We're not talking about math, we're talking about language.



My point is that some things can't be analyzed like a mathematical model. Art, I believe, is one of those things, as it is inherently _emotional_.

I'm respectfully laying down my pen in this discussion.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

peters said:


> Ah, I didnt considered this. The idea of an insane crop to simply use 1:1 sensor readout indeed sounds very much like canon  I guess IF Canon realy offers these insane resolutions/framerates, it will come certainly with a lot of strange caveats. DPAF is also very likely to be not available.
> 
> But somehow its still hard to belive that they will offer 4k120. time will tell.
> 
> ...


Well 4k120 is not just a Canon issue. NOBODY has MILC or DSLR body that can pull that off. No one. So even coming with a huge crop factor is still a major advancement. Want more than 30 and IBIS? R5. Want lower MP with IBIS? R6. I'm looking at the R6. I'd much rather have a sensor more compatible with 4K resolutions as any camera I get at this point will be almost exclusively for filming rather than stills. My stills camera library is full up and I dont need any replacements there. Using the EOS R now for video, but I would gladly upgrade to acquire a FF readout from a 20MP sensor. The DX2 gets close at 1.3x crop, but it wont let me get 4k out over HDMI.


----------



## mattshaheen (Jan 31, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> I have to agree with Lee, I have tweaked every possible setting for my EVF and it still falls very far behind my friend's A-9. THAT camera is a joy to use in bright sun. My R, not so much.



The only other EVF I've used is on my Fuji X100T and it's pretty god awful so I don't doubt that there is better EVFs in the wild that I haven't had the opportunity to try yet. I also agree that where it does have a rough time is in very bright situations. I shot in a white out and what looked overexposed outside was actually underexposed on my computer. But the lag/ trails, not so much an issue. The blackout is but that's something different.


----------



## tron (Jan 31, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Well, I believe Canon Rumors Guy has said that a 5D V is also planned for this year so I would expect we will see this same sensor in the next 5D generation. Canon is not ready to abandon the 5D just yet.


And I don't want them to! I have a 5D4 like it a lot and plan to upgrade it if a 5D5 is made available. And that 5D5 will also seem like a consolidation of 5D4 and 5DsR. Neven meant to mean end of line for 5D series.


----------



## tron (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I tried the R and the RP. The lag was horrible and the view of moving subjects was blurry. Both crushed blacks and blew out whites.
> 
> What are people like me who greatly value instant feedback supposed to do when these EVFs are so unusable for us?


I hope for a next generation of EOS 5 series (like all of them) just like me. I do believe though that your experience can be improved at least in terms of contrast. Set exposure simulation and also lower the contrast by choosing the neutral picture profile (Actually the last one I learn't it reading this forum).


----------



## BillB (Jan 31, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Well, I believe Canon Rumors Guy has said that a 5D V is also planned for this year so I would expect we will see this same sensor in the next 5D generation. Canon is not ready to abandon the 5D just yet.


I think the 5DV rumor was a CR1, and I am not sure it gave a timeframe


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> My point is that some things can't be analyzed like a mathematical model.



Then you missed the point. The point is not about analyzing art, it's about categorizing photography into one of a few possible terms. My contention is that "art" is the wrong term in which to categorize photography.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Language is about precision. If you can't define the term, the term has no meaning.


Language is about efficiency of communication. Even if you don't know human physiology well enough to be able to define the term "sweetness", for example, the term still has a meaning to you if don't lack sweetness receptors.

The same about the term "pity". And if you are absolutely unable to produce the "thing" in your head before triggering the shutter, I pity you.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> I have to agree with Lee, I have tweaked every possible setting for my EVF and it still falls very far behind my friend's A-9. THAT camera is a joy to use in bright sun. My R, not so much.



The A9 is the only one I haven't tried. I can't find one in my city. But the A7iii I tried was awful.


----------



## bluediablo (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Really? My post confused you THAT much?


Relax, I was just trolling you for a laugh, should of included an emoji. Here it is


----------



## Kit. (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Below was a handheld hiking shot at Zion. This is a classic example of 'What I had to do is not good, but it is better than if I didn't do it.' In hindsight, I wouldn't have pushed the shadows so much -- it looks flat as a result.


Hehe. I guess, some people would complain that the image below didn't show enough DR:


Spoiler: (of course, not mine)











Not me, though. And I like the original version of your photo more than the "flattened" one.


----------



## Rule556 (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Then you missed the point. The point is not about analyzing art, it's about categorizing photography into one of a few possible terms. My contention is that "art" is the wrong term in which to categorize photography.



Sheesh. I promised I was done. No, I get your point. I just disagree. Have a great day.


----------



## richperson (Jan 31, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Language is about efficiency of communication.



Then you have failed.


----------



## AEWest (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> There's 100% going to be a 5D5. The mirrorless beast will feed on other product lines before that one goes.
> 
> And 1-series will lose their mirrors last of all.
> 
> ...


What options would a 5D user have if Canon said in two weeks "Here is the new R5, it will replace the 5D line"?

They can't go to Nikon - they are going through the same transition. Of course Sony is all mirrorless.

I think the transition will happen much quicker than 10 years simply due to lenses. In the shrinking ILC camera market all manufacturers have to rationalize costs and having to support two distinct lens lines for that length of time does not make economic sense.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 31, 2020)

richperson said:


> Then you have failed.


I am not "language".


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Of course Sony is all mirrorless.




Excuse me? A99 II is a formidable camera, albeit a bit nutty -- but there is a mirror.

- A


----------



## richperson (Jan 31, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I am not "language".



Sorry, your language has failed.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 31, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> My point is that some things can't be analyzed like a mathematical model. Art, I believe, is one of those things, as it is inherently _emotional_.


Oh, come on, it's not that hard.

Art is the property of an artifact (i.e. man-made object) being subjectively perceived as "unique" in the context of mainfestation of two evolutionarily stable strategies of _Homo sapiens_: fashion and conspicuous consumption.


----------



## Rule556 (Jan 31, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Oh, come on, it's not that hard.
> 
> Art is the property of an artifact (i.e. man-made object) being subjectively perceived as "unique" in the context of mainfestation of two evolutionarily stable strategies of _Homo sapiens_: fashion and conspicuous consumption.



Yeah? YEAH??? Well, I like turtles.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 31, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Oh, come on, it's not that hard.
> 
> Art is the property of an artifact (i.e. man-made object) being subjectively perceived as "unique" in the context of mainfestation of two evolutionarily stable strategies of _Homo sapiens_: fashion and conspicuous consumption.


----------



## bbb34 (Jan 31, 2020)




----------



## bluediablo (Jan 31, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Oh, come on, it's not that hard.
> 
> Art is the property of an artifact (i.e. man-made object) being subjectively perceived as "unique" in the context of mainfestation of two evolutionarily stable strategies of _Homo sapiens_: fashion and conspicuous consumption.


No reason to bring Fuji into this


----------



## AEWest (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Excuse me? A99 II is a formidable camera, albeit a bit nutty -- but there is a mirror.
> 
> - A


I stand corrected. I was thinking of the a7 line.


----------



## Kit. (Jan 31, 2020)

bluediablo said:


> No reason to bring Fuji into this


Of course. Leica would be much more suitable.

And definitely not Canon. Canon is mass-market, not art. Even 1DX III.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

R5 IBIS test outed

That's one hell of a secrecy cover they are using to hide the design:






- A


----------



## Adelino (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> R5 IBIS test outed
> 
> That's one hell of a secrecy cover they are using to hide the design:
> 
> ...


I wish I hadn't wasted time reading the other 1092 posts to get to this really really good one!


----------



## tron (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> R5 IBIS test outed
> 
> That's one hell of a secrecy cover they are using to hide the design:
> 
> ...


Fantastic! Does it come in EF or RF mount?


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

tron said:


> Fantastic! Does it come in EF or RF mount?




New mount. If you load it incorrectly, you lose a finger.

- A


----------



## richperson (Jan 31, 2020)

I see on DPReview that Nikon is offering a trade up program. I think Canon should offer a trade up program for the 5R to any Sony user who now sits in a state of disappointment with their "old school" (vintage? retro?) mirrorless.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

I swear I almost posted an Energizer Bunny pic in here last night.........


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> R5 IBIS test outed
> 
> That's one hell of a secrecy cover they are using to hide the design:
> 
> ...



Canon appears to have made a tilt-shift...bird


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon appears to have a made tilt-shift...bird




Ain't she a beaut?

Biomimetic gimbal design -- 10 stops IBIS for sure
It's a drone, too
Two lenses --> sees in 3D
Battery life extreme provided you brought snacks
It may will poop on you
Minimal eye strain unless you try to try to look through its rear 'viewfinder', in which case it plucks out your eyes
Image transfer technology still being worked out
Your $3500 investment may fly off into the hands of a Sony owner
- A


----------



## snappy604 (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> My first DSLR was the Canon D6, around 1998, I think. It was about $2,000 and had a 6MP APSC-sized sensor. I didn’t even know what dynamic range was. I forget the FPS, but not much. I put a grand down at the local camera store — remember those? — and waited about nine months for it because of the back orders. Three months after I picked it up, Canon announced the improved and cheaper 10D. It’s really been an amazing photographic ride ever since.




remember? I still have a D6 and it was working last time I checked 2yrs ago.. I should check again - edit. . reading the discussions, I better check, maybe it was a D60.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

snappy604 said:


> remember? I still have a D6 and it was working last time I checked 2yrs ago.. I should check again



Canon never made a D6, to my knowledge.

Perhaps you are thinking of the D60?


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Canon never made a D6, to my knowledge.
> 
> Perhaps you are thinking of the D60?


You are correct. It was a D60. My bad.


----------



## snappy604 (Jan 31, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Canon never made a D6, to my knowledge.
> 
> Perhaps you are thinking of the D60?



yeah ... might have been, recall the naming scheme was different. Luckily I still have it.. so I can check when I get home. My only problem is the dates don't match.. it was bought for a wedding in 2001 and that doc indicates 2002.


----------



## amorse (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Ain't she a beaut?
> 
> Biomimetic gimbal design -- 10 stops IBIS for sure
> It's a drone, too
> ...


10 stops? I think that IBIS will be anything from 0-stops to infinity, depending on attention span.


----------



## amorse (Jan 31, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> You are correct. It was a D60. My bad.


Ah the D60. Easy to communicate by writing, somewhat tougher to say: 
Camera store: "Sorry, what did you want again? deee six deee or theee six deee"
Me: "I'm going to need you to write that down before I answer"


----------



## Lee Jay (Jan 31, 2020)

snappy604 said:


> yeah ... might have been, recall the naming scheme was different. Luckily I still have it.. so I can check when I get home. My only problem is the dates don't match.. it was bought for a wedding in 2001 and that doc indicates 2002.


3MP D30 then?


----------



## BillB (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I think the transition will happen much quicker than 10 years simply due to lenses. In the shrinking ILC camera market all manufacturers have to rationalize costs and having to support two distinct lens lines for that length of time does not make economic sense.


Whether it makes sense to maintain two lines depends on whether they can max profit by maintaining two lines. Canon is going to have to figure that out. We can't.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 31, 2020)

amorse said:


> 10 stops? I think that IBIS will be anything from 0-stops to infinity, depending on attention span.




Goodness knows what they were dangling in front of that bird to lock its attention so.

Treats work for our dogs, but what is the treat dangler for a hawk? A mouse, maybe? 

- A


----------



## reef58 (Jan 31, 2020)

AEWest said:


> But Canon already has thrown in the towel on the EF mount - they are only working on R glass and have said so. So if I'm a photographer looking for a new camera, why would I buy into obsolecense?
> 
> I expect a few more R lenses this year including smaller F4 variants. So say there are a total of 15 R lenses by end of year. Yet if I buy a DSLR, I have no access to any of them. No chance of ever buying the compact 70-200 2.8.
> 
> ...



How much better do you want the EF lenses to be? Are they not meeting your requirements? In what way are they lacking? I really am curious.

In some applications OVF's and long battery life trump increased specifications on a sheet. I have no issues with mirrorless, but I have mentioned this before and I will mention it again, why do mirrorless proponents get so angry over the existence of cameras with mirrors? You act as tough they cannot coexist. I envision a day where my 1dx3 and probably a high mp R camera live in harmony each doing their designated task to perfection, wildlife / action and landscape respectively. 

Just because I choose to own a camera with a mirror it should not diminish your enjoyment of your mirrorless model.


----------



## richperson (Jan 31, 2020)

reef58 said:


> How much better do you want the EF lenses to be? Are they not meeting your requirements? In what way are they lacking? I really am curious.



1) I don't have as many of them as I would like;
2) They don't have that extra control ring that I keep bumping and throwing off my ISO setting;
3) that is all.

Yes, the adapter on the R is a bit of a pain, but the EF lenses I have are all fantastic and my main body is a 1DXii, so I don't see getting rid of any of them any time soon. I have no interest in any of the trinity RF lenses as my EF versions do all I need and more on both EF and RF bodies.

My primary RF interest is in the any new lenses the RF flange spacing allows. Holding out for the 70-135mm f/2 and/or the 135mm f/1.4.

I am jonesing a bit for the RF 85mm f/1.2 though, even though I have the EF 85mm f/1.4 IS.


----------



## brad-man (Jan 31, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Goodness knows what they were dangling in front of that bird to lock its attention so.
> 
> Treats work for our dogs, but what is the treat dangler for a hawk? A mouse, maybe?
> 
> - A


The camera's LCD was in selfie position.


----------



## mattshaheen (Jan 31, 2020)

Got this email yesterday:

Canon to launch upgraded CANON iMAGE GATEWAY service

We are pleased to inform you that in March 2020, Canon will substantially revamp its existing CANON iMAGE GATEWAY online photography service, strengthen its connectivity and compatibility with products and other services, and provide services to help customers manage and use their images.

The revamped service will have a new name and improved functions – we will share further details with you in February 2020. To make way for this service, we will close the current CANON iMAGE GATEWAY service in mid March 2020 and later that month all of your image files and albums will be available for access with the upgraded service, so that you can experience the new benefits it will provide.

We would like to thank you for your continued support - we’re excited to show you a new future and enhanced imaging experience with Canon.

———

With the 5G Wi-Fi in the R5 I’m hoping we’ll have a cloud storage solution that is a seamless backup in camera like a smartphone. That way the 2nd card slot doesn't have to be redundant and can be used for larger storage and still backed up


----------



## mjg79 (Jan 31, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Surely you mean the EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II? Rather than the EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L?


Yep indeed - I actually had the Mk I version and thought it was very good but it was the II that really lived up to the promise of "replacing all your 2.8 primes".


----------



## davo (Jan 31, 2020)

8K WILL be present....it will be black and white only though.


----------



## AEWest (Jan 31, 2020)

reef58 said:


> How much better do you want the EF lenses to be? Are they not meeting your requirements? In what way are they lacking? I really am curious.
> 
> In some applications OVF's and long battery life trump increased specifications on a sheet. I have no issues with mirrorless, but I have mentioned this before and I will mention it again, why do mirrorless proponents get so angry over the existence of cameras with mirrors? You act as tough they cannot coexist. I envision a day where my 1dx3 and probably a high mp R camera live in harmony each doing their designated task to perfection, wildlife / action and landscape respectively.
> 
> Just because I choose to own a camera with a mirror it should not diminish your enjoyment of your mirrorless model.




I have in fact owned Canon DSLRs since 2003 and would love for them to coexist with mirrorless. I still don't own a mirrorless camera. I am merely pointing out my prediction for Canon and giving reasons why I think we are quite quickly nearing the end of Canon DSLR lifecycle -quicker than many here think.

I have an economics background and having two separate lens lineups for essentially the same camera (one being mirrorless, the other DSLR) makes no economic sense. 

Canon is finally coming out with the mirrorless body worthy of their professional grade R lenses. At some point (when they judge that there is enough market penetration for the cameras) they will cease production of the EF version of the R lenses.

Thom Hogan has a good article on his site discussing how the number of lens mounts by the major companies have to be reduced significantly in the very near future given the extremely tough market conditions in the industry. Some companies won't survive.

I expect that Canon will survive but they will have to make much tougher business decisions with regards to their product lineup than they used to when the market was much stronger. And that will unfortunately alienate some customers.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Goodness knows what they were dangling in front of that bird to lock its attention so.
> 
> Treats work for our dogs, but what is the treat dangler for a hawk? A mouse, maybe?
> 
> - A


Birds like that can't move their eyes much, so they compensate by keeping their head still so they can have clear vision. Humans are able to move our eyes much more. So to achieve clear, non-shaky vision, we stabilize our eyes rather than our whole head.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Yet you still insist that 1.5ev is a difficult shadow push and that ~1ev difference between the 5D4 and best Sony/Nikon bodies is large. It's not large, it's a processing adjustment.


You simply can't eliminate the DR difference by making adjustments (moreover the DR is often _measured_ by making exposure adjustments). There always will be a range in shadows (or highlights) that's recoverable on D850 and not recoverable on 5DIV. And that range gets bigger on 7D. 

I have tons of images from my old 70D (which performs slightly better than 7D but overall very close to 7D at each ISO value) and the shadows are unbearable compared to 5DIV. The noise is visible right away and recoverability is significantly worse than on 5DIV.



dtaylor said:


> So unless Canon is going to introduce something truly new in their sensor circuitry, the R5 sensor is going to deliver ~13.6ev. And if you process the DPAF data properly you find the circuitry is actually capable of ~14.6. (Again, DxO methodology.)



As above, there's no practical way at the moment to properly recover DPAF data. So I'm not sure if anyone can actually measure what 5DIV sensor is capable of after 'processing DPAF data properly'.
Also I don't trust DxO at all, as a 14 bit sensor can't deliver more than 14 stops. 

But Canon is slowly making progress in reducing the read noise which indicates they do know about the problem and do try improving on it. Unfortunately the progress is moderate and in crop sensors only.

As to the small pixels vs big pixels I've already responded, A7RIV has a poorer performance than A7RIII, presumably it has the same design but smaller pixels.
In Canon, I don't even know what to take for comparison.


----------



## slclick (Feb 1, 2020)

Who else had or has plans to buy into the RF body system yet keep their EF glass and potentially not buy RF lenses for quite some time? (or ever...I have 3 expensive hobbies and I can't make the others jealous too often) I really like my collection of Canon lenses and none of the RF's do anything for me focal length wise. This may change


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> In what way is the Sony A7RIV worse than the A7RIII in the real world other than for file size?



It wasn't about the real world - most of this thread isn't about the real world either btw 
It was about smaller pixels having pooper dynamic range than larger pixels. A7RIII and A7RIV sensors are (presumably) based on the similar design and are produced by the same manufacturer, but A7RIV has smaller pixels which is reflected in slightly worse DR performance.



Gazwas said:


> Look, I know some people will now show me a load of maths to prove thier point however, this doesn't alter the fact I just don't see any negatives in real photos given the extra 20MP.



I totally agree, but my post wasn't about real photos.


----------



## richperson (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> Who else had or has plans to buy into the RF body system yet keep their EF glass and potentially not buy RF lenses for quite some time? (or ever...I have 3 expensive hobbies and I can't make the others jealous too often) I really like my collection of Canon lenses and none of the RF's do anything for me focal length wise. This may change



I have an R and will definitely upgrade to an R5, but the only RF lens I bought, and the only RF lenses I will likely get in the near future are the unicorns (RF 28-70mm f/2). My EF lenses work perfectly on the R, so no reason to duplicated them.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> Who else had or has plans to buy into the RF body system yet keep their EF glass and potentially not buy RF lenses for quite some time? (or ever...I have 3 expensive hobbies and I can't make the others jealous too often) I really like my collection of Canon lenses and none of the RF's do anything for me focal length wise. This may change


That's the great thing about the R cameras - you could easily keep a full EF lens inventory for a long time and use them perfectly. Unlike the FD to EF debacle. Now just waiting on the proper R body!


----------



## mjg79 (Feb 1, 2020)

With all this talk of new cameras coming it makes me wonder what will happen to the R and Rp. 

If there is a replacement for the R then traditionally Canon has ended production of the earlier model. However this trend has for other manufacturers been going out of fashion - and for good reason. Apple for example is, having already sunk the costs of design, certification, manufacturing lines etc, now keen to keep producing older models to sell at a lower price.

Sony has really taken this model on board for their cameras and it has proved a good way to keep the price pressure on Canon and Nikon. The A7rIII for example remains a very good camera, in many technical respects superior to the Nikon and Canon mirrorless offerings, and is now available for a low price. A clever way to draw people into your system.

For all its detractors the R is a very good camera - perhaps it will become the entry level model and be sold cheaper.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> Who else had or has plans to buy into the RF body system yet keep their EF glass and potentially not buy RF lenses for quite some time?


I have a vague plan to get the new R5 or RS and keep my 5DIV for a few months. I haven't had a backup camera for a while which is bad. So I'd keep all my EF lenses but then will probably be trading them in for the RF equivalents, and eventually sell 5DIV too.

But I'm having GAS attacks sometimes so eventually can fully switch to the new system at once - only I need a budget to buy RF first and sell later. If you look at my lenses (below), the full upgrade to RF will be quite expensive, considering the difference between the second-hand EF and new RF ones.


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## Ozarker (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> Who else had or has plans to buy into the RF body system yet keep their EF glass and potentially not buy RF lenses for quite some time? (or ever...I have 3 expensive hobbies and I can't make the others jealous too often) I really like my collection of Canon lenses and none of the RF's do anything for me focal length wise. This may change


My initial plan was just to buy the R with the kit lens. I did that. Then, impulsively, I decided I just had to have the RF glass I have now so I sold everything else. To afford it, I had to sell all my EF glass and my 5D Mark III. I also sold the RF 24-105mm f/4L. I only wish I had kept my 135mm f/2L and the EF 35mm f/1.4L II. I say that I wish I kept them for two reasons: 1. They were fantastic lenses. The 135 was my favorite portrait lens and the 35 was beautiful in it's rendering and fast. 2. It will be very difficult for me ($) to get any RF 135mm f/xL that comes out, or any other lens for that matter. I will not be buying the 2.8s.


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## mjg79 (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> Who else had or has plans to buy into the RF body system yet keep their EF glass and potentially not buy RF lenses for quite some time? (or ever...I have 3 expensive hobbies and I can't make the others jealous too often) I really like my collection of Canon lenses and none of the RF's do anything for me focal length wise. This may change



Yes that was my intention and, yes, inevitably I've ended up buying more Rf glass!

It's wise, if you have the self control, to hold off a little while when you can. Canon of course charges top dollar for lenses when first released and a little patience can save a lot of money. 

Canon knows they have a fight on their hand and the 15-35 and 24-70 2.8s have already come down a fair bit in price with grey markets etc and you'll find that Canon won't want their 2.8 pro lenses to be much more expensive than Sony's GM 2.8 lenses for long. I haven't carefully analysed it but I have the feeling the prices have come down quicker than previously - the 35mm 1.4L II and 16-35mm 2.8L III both stuck at their entry price points, at least in England, for seemingly ages and it has only been more recently they dropped quite a bit (of course they were replacing existing lenses not new lenses in a new mount which Canon hopes to establish). Unless you're a YouTube making unboxing videos or just have terrible GAS it's always worth waiting. The 50/1.2 L and 35/1.8 IS are both already quite a lot cheaper than their entry price.

Canon clearly adjusts it for the market. Their EF 85/1.4L IS for example came in much cheaper than expected, almost certainly because of the Sigma Art 85/1.4. The Sony 2.8 GM holy trinity are now well established and settled in price and that's a market Canon prizes highly.

And if the upcoming R models really have IBIS that will for example allow a lot of people to keep using their EF 24-70/2.8L II rather than buy the new Rf model. If I can get an Rf camera then I will keep my old lens. It will also be good for the 135L.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> But this notion that we'll get this sort of bump each gen of sensor is nuts. This was a one time really big boost -- think of it a market parity chiropractic re-alignment. It will not happen again* in big chunks unless Canon makes yet another once-every-10-years sort of sensor architecture change. I don't see it happening soon.



Yeah, as above, if we extrapolate 90D sensor to FF, we get 5DIV's performance at 80Mp which will be quite good. At 45Mp I'd expect a slightly better performance than 5DIV. This extrapolation may be flawed but gives an idea of what to expect from Canon. 

Also they say 90D has less banding issues which is good, and also they still promise to make some advancements in this area. I don't expect drastic changes, I actually expect these new R sensors to be slightly worse than Sony in terms of the DR, but I'm ok with 0.5 stop difference or so. But if Canon doesn't deliver even that, myself and many other customers will be very disappointed. If R5 lags say 1 stop behind A7RIII, it may become a last straw.


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## Rule556 (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> Who else had or has plans to buy into the RF body system yet keep their EF glass and potentially not buy RF lenses for quite some time? (or ever...I have 3 expensive hobbies and I can't make the others jealous too often) I really like my collection of Canon lenses and none of the RF's do anything for me focal length wise. This may change



As a hobbyist, my lens lineup is small and modest, so I plan on replacing them as the opportunity or need arises. I bought my R at Christmas when the price dropped, and couldn't afford the RF 24-105 f/4L, so I'm currently using the latest EF version. I love this lens for travel, but the new one appears to not only improve IQ, but also form factor. I plan on replacing this lens first. The other lens in my bag is the current EF 70-300 f/4-5.6, and this will be my second priority to upgrade once an RF equivalent is released. 

The rest of my lineup is the shorty 40, nifty 50, and latest 24mm f/2.8 IS USM. They all work great on the adapter, so whether or not I upgrade them will depend on the price and features of any future lenses, but frankly these are low priority for me as most of my photography is walk around or travel and the two zooms cover pretty much everything I need to do. 

Frankly, I feel that EF holdouts, and those who don't mind adapting, are going to be in some serious boon times with a lot of great EF lenses going on the used market. I definitely can't afford the new trinity, but who knows, I might soon be able to swing the EF trinity and make it work for several years and upgrade when I can.

TLDR, I'm in no hurry to upgrade, except for the RF 24-105 f/4L


----------



## davo (Feb 1, 2020)

Just for the heck of it I went over and peeked at the Sony Alpha Rumors site for talk of the R5. They did have this article posted and the rumored specs. I was expecting a lot of mocking " yea...right!...suuuuuuure" replies but Surprisingly everything I read in the comments was positive on Canon basically. Most wished the specs were real and that the R5 would get Sony to stop slacking off and give them something competitive with some features they have been yearning for.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 1, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> Ah, yes, I forgot about the mirror box necessary for the OVF. so I’m just wrong on that. Thanks for calling that out.


actually, there is a solution: external OVF piece in the cold shoe. it would be a focal length specific, but for long glass shooters (birders), this may work well.
like a rifle scope, zooming according to the FL set in lens.

something along these lines:





__





Search results for: 'alpen apex xp 4 16x44 rifle scope' | OZScopes







www.ozscopes.com.au





such a OVF piece could even be calibrated to various focal lengths: 300, 420, 400, 5.6, 500, 700 800, etc. etc

I am sure that Canon can get this OVF piece auto zooming to whatever focal length the Lens is zoomed to.. A flash head reads receives FL information and sets itself to a correct FL automatically. Anyway, a method that I described can be implemented. yes, framing wont be 100% accurate. but hey, better than staring at a TV screen for hours draining your battery.


----------



## padam (Feb 1, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> With all this talk of new cameras coming it makes me wonder what will happen to the R and Rp.
> 
> If there is a replacement for the R then traditionally Canon has ended production of the earlier model. However this trend has for other manufacturers been going out of fashion - and for good reason. Apple for example is, having already sunk the costs of design, certification, manufacturing lines etc, now keen to keep producing older models to sell at a lower price.
> 
> ...


These new models will be comfortably over double the current price of an R, so no R Mark II in sight as previously rumoured.
Depending on the viewpoint, the R5 can be described as that, but it is a much higher-end model, but after some time its high initial price may drop significantly just like it was with the R, so it can move to that spot.

So the R and RP won't go away, the model range is a bit different but eventually after 3-4 years from their announcements, they will get replacements.

With Sony there are three separate models running in parallel with short product cycles for the most part and the old ones will run out later.

With Canon if we suppose that there is a megapixel monster still coming as well the range will consist of five different R models (6 if we count the astrophotography as well) but they won't run a short product cycle and Nikon will likely to do more of less the same thing, only with a different order.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Correct. Diffraction happens at a certain aperture based on pixel size. Simply put, diffraction will begin to creep in at larger and larger apertures the smaller and smaller (more and more) your pixels get. So when we have been shooting at say 25MP or less for a decade on average, we always talk about diffraction starting to hit around f11 - f16. When the 5DS came out with 50MP, we were talking about diffraction starting to creep in around f8. So in theory we can expect about the same on the R5 with 48MP. Fast Forward to this rumored 83MP thing... and you can see where this going. Where my understanding ends is whether or not the AA filter itself (remember it basically diffuses light) has much if any impact and in turn, will this new AA filter Canon has developed for the DX3 (and presumably on future R models as well) have any impact on extending the range of the f stops beyond where we would suppose diffraction would normally come in on 83 MP (f4 -5.6??)



Diffraction happens at _all_ apertures. With digital imaging, it becomes _detectable_ based on pixel size compared to the airy disk.

As for the new low pass filter on the 1D X Mark III, keep in mind that it it is being used on a relatively low resolution 20MP sensor and might not be as appropriate for a higher resolution sensor with much smaller sensels (a/k/a photosites a/k/a pixel wells).


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 1, 2020)

padam said:


> These new models will be comfortably over double the cost of an R, so no R Mark II in sight as previously rumoured.
> 
> So the R and RP won't go away, the model range is a bit different but eventually after 3-4 years of their announcements, they will get replacements.
> 
> ...



here is my take on it:
note how R and RP have no model range number attached to the name. Canon typically differentiate model range by series: 1, 5, 6, xx, xxx etc.
in my humble opinion, R and Rp were an experiment, a proof of concept (POC), a Minimum viable product. I am sorry to say that.
they tested all sorts of crazy design concepts (touch bar), progressed firmware and technology like EyeAF to commercial level, form factor, etc. etc etc. , and having market reaction analysed now are ready to release a final product : R5, RS - whatever that may be... with quirky bits removed and wrinkles ironed. 

R was destined to be an early adopter oriented conceptual product. once again, I am sorry for raining on R owners day.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> If specs are true, treating this as the future upgrade for 5D4 users (I contend R5 and 5D5 will have these same specs):
> 
> IBIS -- huge for me (I shoot in low light often, so I read this as virtual speed to lower my ISO)
> Huge bump in res
> ...



What if...

Only the R5 gets IBIS and the 5D Mark V does not? What happens then?

Canon gives another incentive for buyers to move away from DSLRs to mirrorless, while giving those who prefer a DSLR most of what they want. Keep in mind that the biggest groups that still prefer DSLRs over mirrorless are shooting at high shutter speeds due to subject movement. They're shooting sports, action, wildlife, etc. IBIS isn't near as useful there as it would be with static scenes, particularly since the lenses most use for such subjects are already well stabilized.

Think about this: When Roger Cicala tore down the EOS R he noted that there's plenty of empty room behind the sensor which could be used for IBIS hardware. The 5D mark IV has no such space in it. To give the 5D Mark V IBIS would require either making the camera thicker or totally redesigning the main board and probably breaking it up into several pieces and moving them away from behind the sensor.


----------



## padam (Feb 1, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> here is my take on it:
> note how R and RP have no model range number attached to the name. Canon typically differentiate model range by series: 1, 5, 6, xx, xxx etc.
> in my humble opinion, R and Rp were an experiment, a proof of concept (POC), a Minimum viable product. I am sorry to say that.
> they tested all sorts of crazy design concepts (touch bar), progressed firmware and technology like EyeAF to commercial level, form factor, etc. etc etc. , and having market reaction analysed now are ready to release a final product : R5, RS - whatever that may be... with quirky bits removed and wrinkles ironed.
> ...


It is called natural progression, but it is also differentiation.
Enough time has passed with the development that now they are able to match or exceed expectations about what people requested (which they were aware of much sooner than the start of their FF mirrorless system)
But it will also cost significantly more, because besides the development cost, it is a much more attractive, desirable, 'fresh' product, but it does mean that the other is trash (it was initially priced high compared to where it belongs, but at the current level it is a fine camera)


----------



## padam (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What if...
> 
> Only the R5 gets IBIS and the 5D Mark V does not? What happens then?
> 
> ...











Patent: IBIS appears in a Canon DSLR for the first time


A new Canon patent for in-body image stabilization has appeared, and it looks like it is being worked on for DSLRs as well. This is the first time we've seen e




www.canonrumors.com





They can do it if they feel like it. Or the 5D Mark V will be priced lower than the R5 for omitting this feature. Either decision should work.


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## Ozarker (Feb 1, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> here is my take on it:
> note how R and RP have no model range number attached to the name. Canon typically differentiate model range by series: 1, 5, 6, xx, xxx etc.
> in my humble opinion, R and Rp were an experiment, a proof of concept (POC), a Minimum viable product. I am sorry to say that.
> they tested all sorts of crazy design concepts (touch bar), progressed firmware and technology like EyeAF to commercial level, form factor, etc. etc etc. , and having market reaction analysed now are ready to release a final product : R5, RS - whatever that may be... with quirky bits removed and wrinkles ironed.
> ...


There ain't no rain over here.  It is a fantastic camera for the $. So is the RP.


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## Rule556 (Feb 1, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> R was destined to be an early adopter oriented conceptual product. once again, I am sorry for raining on R owners day.



As an R owner, I agree with you, and my parade has definitely not been rained on. In fact it was an opportunity for a not rich enthusiast like myself to get into mirrorless, take advantage of the new great glass, and get into a much better camera than my O.G. 6D for about the same scratch as the current 6D mkii. 

I’m totally happy watching the evolution of the R for the next five years. I put a lot of mileage on my 6D, and I see no reason the R won’t serve me as well.

I just have to deal with glass GAS.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

richperson said:


> I see an RF 400mm f/2.8 IS in my future. Do we know if the R IBIS works with IS in EF lenses? I'm assuming it does not work as well.



I'd really be surprised if an RF 400mm f/2.8 L IS is introduced before an RF 300mm f/2.8 L IS and RF 500mm f/4 L IS.

The EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS II and EF 600mm f/4 L IS II both got total redesigns to "III" versions in 2018.

The EF 300mm f/2.8 L IS II and EF 500mm f/4 L IS II are 2011 designs. They'll be the first RF great whites.


----------



## Rule556 (Feb 1, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> There ain't no rain over here.  It is a fantastic camera for the $.



Amen.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I disagree unfortunately. I think the last new DSLR by Canon has already been introduced.
> 
> For those that prefer OVF over EVF, I would stick with existing gear until I got used to EVF - I wouldn't buy a new DSLR anymore (except 1D sports users).
> 
> ...



How many years did you shoot film before you transitioned to digital?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> R was destined to be an early adopter oriented conceptual product. once again, I am sorry for raining on R owners day.



I had very similar thoughts on that. It looked like Canon deliberately didn't put the line number after the R as if they wanted to mislead consumers, but at the same time give them a hint it was an experimental product. But they couldn't publicly tell everyone it was an interim transitional body to serve as a mere mount for the beautiful RF glass.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> Glass is eternal, bodies have a short life. Take the 135L, I'd buy it today if I didn't already have it.



The 135L is about the only reason I'd be interested in IBIS.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Yes. Because R cameras can still be used with existing EF lenses. Therefore they are not orphaned but will fade away over time as they are replaced by better R glass. Canon thought this through much better than when the EF lens mount was introduced.



They also thought through very well that 1-series users would not yet be ready to move to mirrorless. Perhaps there is a much higher percentage of 5-series users not yet ready to move to mirrorless as well? Not everyone with a 5-series body uses it the same way you might use a 5-series body.

P.S. Canon also thought it through much better than Nikon in 1987 when they decided to make a clean break from the mechanical FD to the all electronic EF mount for technological reasons and Nikon decided to stick with the F-mount for marketing reasons. At the time, four out of five imaging pros shooting in the 135mm format used Nikon. Within five short years, Canon was the number one 135 format camera being used by imaging pros.


----------



## slclick (Feb 1, 2020)

richperson said:


> I have an R and will definitely upgrade to an R5, but the only RF lens I bought, and the only RF lenses I will likely get in the near future are the unicorns (RF 28-70mm f/2). My EF lenses work perfectly on the R, so no reason to duplicated them.


Here's what I use and am very happy with. Keep in mind I have been using EF glass since 1999 and used to be a sell to buy lens person based upon changing needs and desires based upon styles and genres. I am very settled in my usage and cannot see moving away from this set:

16-35 f/4L, 24-105 f/4L IS ii, 100-400 Mkii,1.4 TC iii, 40, 100L, 135L. Various Specialty lenses such as Lensbaby and Holgas.

I would probably invest in a Control ring as opposed to the standard adapter as I am more concerned with it's build than the function (which is a plus) over the regular ef-rf adapter. The filter adapters are a poor concept without a blank slot to fill when not being used for filter reasons, that was disappointing to see.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> My first DSLR was the Canon D6, around 1998, I think. It was about $2,000 and had a 6MP APSC-sized sensor. I didn’t even know what dynamic range was. I forget the FPS, but not much. I put a grand down at the local camera store — remember those? — and waited about nine months for it because of the back orders. Three months after I picked it up, Canon announced the improved and cheaper 10D. It’s really been an amazing photographic ride ever since.



The EOS D60 replaced the EOS D30 in early 2002, and was replaced by the 10D almost exactly one year later.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

Memdroid said:


> I agree. But I don't think it was meant for the average joe either, just like the 1Dx is not everybodies cup of tea. Mostly by budgetary reasons.



What is a 1Dx? Has Nikon came out with a cropped body model with "1" designation? "Dx" is a Nikon designation for cropped sensors and APS-C only lenses.

Or do you mean the Canon EOS 1D X?


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 1, 2020)

padam said:


> It is called natural progression, but it is also differentiation.
> Enough time has passed with the development that now they are able to match or exceed expectations about what people requested (which they were aware of much sooner than the start of their FF mirrorless system)
> But it will also cost significantly more, because besides the development cost, it is a much more attractive, desirable, 'fresh' product, but it does mean that the other is trash (it was initially priced high compared to where it belongs, but at the current level it is a fine camera)


sorry, the point that I was trying to make was that R and RP are, in my view, a POC, MVP type of product by Canon's intent and by design.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> How many years did you shoot film before you transitioned to digital?


Almost 20.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

mjg79 said:


> With all this talk of new cameras coming it makes me wonder what will happen to the R and Rp.




R and RP, the day after R5 and R6 announcement:






Seriously, I think R and RP make a quiet exit once the prior 'FF SLR pecking order' is more or less restored. My take from another thread:
​1-series --> R1​5DS --> R2, R3, R4 or R5S?​5D --> R5​​R --> ​6D --> R6​​RP --> ​7D --> R7 (if it happens at all)​
Sorry, no tombstone emoji.

- A


----------



## davo (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> I would probably invest in a Control ring as opposed to the standard adapter as I am more concerned with it's build than the function (which is a plus) over the regular ef-rf adapter. The filter adapters are a poor concept without a blank slot to fill when not being used for filter reasons, that was disappointing to see.



There is a clear glass filter to plug the opening. This also serves as a total dust blocker when swapping lenses.


----------



## slclick (Feb 1, 2020)

davo said:


> There is a clear glass filter to plug the opening. This also serves as a total dust blocker when swapping lenses.


I read comments on the reviews of the two filters on the B&H site and there were multiple complaints which lead me to that conclusion. They all were certified purchasers and they cried out for the lack of a plug. Go figure


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> Maybe it's that Euro/USA/Japanese naming scheme disfunction? It might have been known here as the Rebel XT2000 ll



That was/would have been a 135 format film camera...


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## slclick (Feb 1, 2020)

davo said:


> There is a clear glass filter to plug the opening. This also serves as a total dust blocker when swapping lenses.


Oh I see, there's a $129 additional glass clear filter. That's.... what's the word? 


* LAME*

So after $399 + $129 for that combo, you could have been halfway to another RF lens or purchased a much better complete filter system such as one from Formatt Hi Tech


----------



## slclick (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That was a 135 format film camera...


I made it up.


----------



## navastronia (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> R and RP, the day after R5 and R6 announcement:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you really think Canon will cede the low-end FF market? The RP is a hell of a lot of camera for $1K. I can't see Canon not making an RPII someday, and an R6 will cost at least $1800.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> I made it up.




Yeah, but any digital EF camera Canon has ever released has had a "D" in the model name. The absence of a "D" in an EOS Ef mount model name would mean it's a film camera.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Do you really think Canon will cede the low-end FF market? The RP is a hell of a lot of camera for $1K. I can't see Canon not making an RPII someday, and an R6 will cost at least $1800.



There will probably be a stripped down FF model even more basic than the RP. Perhaps without an EVF and only an LCD like most of the m models? And a borked hot shoe like the 2000D/4000D? But it will not be a direct successor to the RP.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> I don't want similar, nor slightly better. Why to buy new camera at all then? We are ok with 30mpx. I think no wedding photogs would ask for more, or less, just a modest bump would be OK. We are also not a sports shooters, so I really don't care about the ultra-high framerate. We have top EF lens for the job given and even if we would start with R, we would still use those, as 5DIV would become our backup. So it mostly narrows down to focus capabilites (which are quite good with the 5DIV) and sensor performance. I would prefer staying with 30mpx and e.g. 1 stop better DR, than having 45 and something like equal or 1/3 of the stop range of an improvement ....



There's not one stop more DR to be found between current technology and theoretically perfect.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> M6 mk II already better than a 90D ......... and who would have thought Canon would have come out with a M series that we are legit going to want a sequel to?
> 
> I kinda would like to see a new version of the removable EVF at some point.



EOS M6 Mark II is already better than a 90D...

Until you want both an eye level viewfinder and a way to trigger off camera flashes! You can't do that with an M6 Mark II!


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

tron said:


> 10fps speed existed many many years ago and certainly before video...



10fps appears to have been the technological limit of Canon's mechanical shutters at the time. Thus they designed their sensors to be able to read out only slightly faster than 10 fps. Then they used technological advances in sensor readout speeds to create Dual Pixel CMOS AF rather than to increase their sensor readout speed by 2X.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

slclick said:


> You don't have to reply to my 'for humors sake' posts you know...or do you?
> 
> (please don't reply)



OK.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> But Canon already has thrown in the towel on the EF mount - they are only working on R glass and have said so. So if I'm a photographer looking for a new camera, why would I buy into obsolecense?
> 
> I expect a few more R lenses this year including smaller F4 variants. So say there are a total of 15 R lenses by end of year. Yet if I buy a DSLR, I have no access to any of them. No chance of ever buying the compact 70-200 2.8.
> 
> ...



It makes no sense to you because you don't use your camera to do the things for which an OVF camera still beats an EVF camera hands down. There are plenty of other 5-series users that do.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> This argument, to me, is the same as throwing up your hands and giving up.
> 
> Language is about precision. If you can't define the term, the term has no meaning.
> 
> ...



There are varying levels of precision. You can't use a standard deviation of .28 units between two sample sets to argue for a significant difference if your smallest unit of measurement is 1.0 units.

Symbols used in mathematics or physics are much more precise than most words we use.

Expecting words such as "art" or "happiness" or "acceptable" to have the same degree of precision as "pi" or "48°C" is not only unrealistic, it is impossible. 

Words and other symbols have no meaning apart from what their users assign to them. Some symbols have broader ranges of meaning assigned to them by those who use them than others do.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> An exception would be if Canon updated the 5D with an RF mount. All the EF glass could still be used and the new 5D would keep the OVF and DSLR handling and ergonomics that many seem to desire. Then Canon let’s the buyers decide, but still moves to exclusive RF Mount. That lets 5D users begin investing in RF glass moving forward.



Where's the mirror for a FF OVF going to fit in the RF's 20mm registration distance?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

amorse said:


> Honestly, I do think a front to back sliding sensor is possible - but all that extra movement would make me a bit nervous on life of the sensor moving system, or introducing more opportunity for vibration in the body. But if I were to imagine a camera that could use both EF and RF without an adapter, that's how it'd look.



I don't think either is likely, but wouldn't it make more sense from an engineering point of view to move the mount flange forward and back, rather than the sensor? There would be a barrel (similar to a zoom lens that extends - but maybe "squarer") with a just large enough to fit around the light box. The 4mm difference between the minimum 20mm registration for RF and maximum 44mm registration should not be a deal breaker.


----------



## snappy604 (Feb 1, 2020)

snappy604 said:


> yeah ... might have been, recall the naming scheme was different. Luckily I still have it.. so I can check when I get home. My only problem is the dates don't match.. it was bought for a wedding in 2001 and that doc indicates 2002.




D60 and 2003. Was looking at an incorrect date stamp from my 3 megapixel minolta I was also using at that time


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> as a 14 bit sensor can't deliver more than 14 stops.


A 1-bit sensor can deliver more than 1 stop, with the help of dithering. Why a 14-bit sensor cannot do the same?


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

davo said:


> Just for the heck of it I went over and peeked at the Sony Alpha Rumors site for talk of the R5. They did have this article posted and the rumored specs. I was expecting a lot of mocking " yea...right!...suuuuuuure" replies but Surprisingly everything I read in the comments was positive on Canon basically. Most wished the specs were real and that the R5 would get Sony to stop slacking off and give them something competitive with some features they have been yearning for.


Are there any clearly Canon trolls, though?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Kit. said:


> A 1-bit sensor can deliver more than 1 stop, with the help of dithering. Why a 14-bit sensor cannot do the same?


By capturing multiple images? In that sense any HDR technique will improve the DR. But how stacking/blending/HDR is related to DXO measurements? You think they use HDR mode?


----------



## Bahrd (Feb 1, 2020)

Kit. said:


> A 1-bit sensor can deliver more than 1 stop, with the help of dithering. Why a 14-bit sensor cannot do the same?


Alternatively: you can have 15 ounces of water in a single 15oz bucket or in two 14oz ones, can't you?


----------



## Memdroid (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What is a 1Dx? Has Nikon came out with a cropped body model with "1" designation? "Dx" is a Nikon designation for cropped sensors and APS-C only lenses.
> 
> Or do you mean the Canon EOS 1D X?



Cute


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> By capturing multiple images?


By covering the image with multiple pixels.

How many photons are you trying to register per pixel anyway?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Kit. said:


> By covering the image with multiple pixels.
> 
> How many photons are you trying to register per pixel anyway?



I'm not trying it. You are  So it's on your side now to explain how you're going to have more than 14 stops in a 14-bit file.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> You simply can't eliminate the DR difference by making adjustments



Of course you can when it comes to human perception. NR affects the N in SNR. There's a limit to what you can do but you absolutely can affect SNR in post. And if two sensors are close enough you can reduce the gap such that most viewers will never perceive it.



> There always will be a range in shadows (or highlights) that's recoverable on D850 and not recoverable on 5DIV.



You've spent way too long looking at graphs. And those graphs have left you with the impression that there are hard limits here and there. When someone like DxO tests DR and publishes a graph they are choosing an arbitrary threshold at which they think noise passes from 'acceptable' to 'unacceptable.' They have to because otherwise how would you perform the test?

Human perception is not nearly so fine grained. You may look at two images at 3:1 in LR and say 'omg the noise on this one is terrible.' The artist may say 'the noise is a little worse.' And 1,000 viewers looking at 36" prints in a gallery may never notice that one has more shadow noise than the other. (And if you really want to turn reality upside down, try a test with and without labels, and with labels reversed.)

Now I'll agree that 2, 3, more stops difference...as measured by someone like DxO...is going to be noticeable in some situations across most print sizes. But 1? Less than 1? You would be very hard pressed to see it even with no post processing in a big print. It's just simply not a large difference.

And again we're talking about certain scenes only. Because most scenes fit within the DR of a D60. A surprising number even fit in the range of Velvia 50.



> As above, there's no practical way at the moment to properly recover DPAF data. So I'm not sure if anyone can actually measure what 5DIV sensor is capable of after 'processing DPAF data properly'.



DPAF processing sometimes failing _for you_ is not the same as _never working at all or providing useful insight into the sensor design._



> Also I don't trust DxO at all, as a 14 bit sensor can't deliver more than 14 stops.



Of course it can when you scale the image to a smaller print/view size. Go read about their screen and print measurements.



> As to the small pixels vs big pixels I've already responded, A7RIV has a poorer performance than A7RIII,



According to Photons to Photos they're the same at ISO 100 and neck-in-neck through the rest of the ISO range.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I'm not trying it. You are  So it's on your side now to explain how you're going to have more than 14 stops in a 14-bit file.



By scaling the image down which increases SNR. At the extreme of this technique you can get a visible light sensor to detect ionizing radiation it was never designed to detect.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 1, 2020)

davo said:


> Just for the heck of it I went over and peeked at the Sony Alpha Rumors site for talk of the R5. They did have this article posted and the rumored specs. I was expecting a lot of mocking " yea...right!...suuuuuuure" replies but Surprisingly everything I read in the comments was positive on Canon basically. Most wished the specs were real and that the R5 would get Sony to stop slacking off and give them something competitive with some features they have been yearning for.


The Sony and Nikon forums are just like the CR, complaining about their shortcomings and how Sony and Nikon are ignoring them, the new releases are no better than the previous etc. The truth is they are all manufacturers trying to optimise their profits and pay their CEOs and shareholders.


----------



## padam (Feb 1, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> sorry, the point that I was trying to make was that R and RP are, in my view, a POC, MVP type of product by Canon's intent and by design.


It can be viewed like that, but they still very much serve as integral part of their lineup and they are not going to be discontinued, the naming scheme is just what it is, marketing differentiation.
The RP is by far their cheapest ever FF camera, and the R sits between the 6D and 5D line of cameras but closer to the latter with the features that it offers, some added and some taken away, it will probably be more popular than the 5D IV.

A lower entry to their FF mirrorless system, that's what they were designed for, they were never branded as 'Pro' models (and of course, originally they were the only cameras available for they system).
And they will sell in bigger numbers than these new models, which are more refined, but also quite a bit more expensive.
Over time these upcoming models will become less expensive as well, maybe a few more firmware tweaks, and after the 3-4 year product cycle they will get replaced again.
What you can have for 1300-1500$ is the EOS R, and that's fine imho. 30MP is already more than enough, and 45MP is probably unnecessary for most people.

They are not going to do an A7III-like, "middle-megapixel-count" camera that has dual slots IBIS FF 4k high frame rates etc. at the same level as the EOS R.
The R6 which will likely cost a bit more than the R5, and I guess they will have a similar body, same batteries with optional battery grip.
It will be competing against the A7SIII which will also move to the ~4000$ price level where the S1H currently sits.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I'd really be surprised if an RF 400mm f/2.8 L IS is introduced before an RF 300mm f/2.8 L IS and RF 500mm f/4 L IS.
> 
> The EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS II and EF 600mm f/4 L IS II both got total redesigns to "III" versions in 2018.
> 
> The EF 300mm f/2.8 L IS II and EF 500mm f/4 L IS II are 2011 designs. They'll be the first RF great whites.


I really wonder about the 300mm f/2.8. The price of used ones has nosedived. There was a huge take up by birders and nature photographers when the II was released because it was the way to get to a hand held 600mm with a 2xTC and and f/4 420mm with good IS, and the only alternatives the antique 400/5.6 without IS, the older 100-400mm with two stops only or the dismal 400mm DO. The introduction of the 400mm DO II effectively killed it at the top end, as did the 100-400mm II at the affordable.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Of course you can when it comes to human perception. NR affects the N in SNR. There's a limit to what you can do but you absolutely can affect SNR in post. And if two sensors are close enough you can reduce the gap such that most viewers will never perceive it.



I recall this very argument from you in one of the previous conversations. Digital post-processing manipulations are intrinsically flawed because they change the detail, NR simply decreases the resolution. But it's getting even worse when you apply NR to one image and don't apply it to another. What are you comparing exactly in this case and how it's related to the sensor performance comparison? You apply the NR to 7D's image and compare it to the unchanged A7RIII's image. You don't see a fallacy in this comparison?
And what if I apply the same amount of NR to A7III's image? Suddenly it's two stops ahead again!



dtaylor said:


> You've spent way too long looking at graphs.



I'm only doing it when looking at the new cameras. In a practical sense, I can compare my current 5DIV against 70D, 550D, 650D, 100D, and also few raw files from Sony A7RIII and Fuji GFX100.

The 70D, which should be roughly the same as your 7D, is significantly worse than 5DIV, but A7RIII is a bit better and I'd be extremely happy if Canon catches up.
Fuji is just a different league.



dtaylor said:


> And again we're talking about certain scenes only. Because most scenes fit within the DR of a D60.



Haven't worked with D60, but many scenes fit within the DR of 70D. But they're noisy in the shadows and the room for manipulation is quite small.



dtaylor said:


> Of course it can when you scale the image to a smaller print/view size. Go read about their screen and print measurements.



I know. I still think there's some flaw in their method. 14 stops is the theoretical limit. Any measurement above means they do digital manipulations so they don't actually measure the sensor performance.



dtaylor said:


> DPAF processing sometimes failing _for you_ is not the same as _never working at all or providing useful insight into the sensor design._



But in the filed I don't care about the sensor design tricks. I care if I should shoot with dual pixel enabled and adjust my exposure hoping that DPRSplit will help get 1 stop more in the highlights. Yes it helps but somewhat randomly and often fails, so I can't rely on it.



dtaylor said:


> According to Photons to Photos they're the same at ISO 100 and neck-in-neck through the rest of the ISO range.



The difference is small but the IV lags behind in many ISO points at high ISO which is exactly where the pixel size difference should be more prominent.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> By scaling the image down which increases SNR. At the extreme of this technique you can get a visible light sensor to detect ionizing radiation it was never designed to detect.


That's interesting, do you have a link with more details on ionising radiation?

Regardless, when you scale the image down *you no longer measure the sensor performance*. Instead, you measure how good the image is for digital noise reduction [through downsampling]. All absolute values of measured DR become totally meaningless.

However they can be used for _relative_ comparison, e.g. A7RIV is better than 5DIV _if _the images are downsampled and normalised. Very limited use, but it's good enough to create a popular site with the camera scoring system.


----------



## Bahrd (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> [...]Regardless, when you scale the image down *you no longer measure the sensor performance*. Instead, you measure how good the image is for digital noise reduction [through downsampling]. All absolute values of measured DR become totally meaningless. [...]



When you are "in the field" do you take pictures or do you measure the 'per pixel' DR? 

@Kit. gave you a nice analogy (perhaps originated from audio DSP): you can have a 1-bit sampler which is equivalent to (if not better than) a 14-bit ADC. You just need to sample faster.


----------



## Gazwas (Feb 1, 2020)

padam said:


> The R6 which will likely cost a bit more than the R5, and I guess they will have a similar body, same batteries with optional battery grip.
> It will be competing against the A7SIII which will also move to the ~4000$ price level where the S1H currently sits.


Thats a really interesting concept that I’ve never considered. I’d assume they would follow historic naming conventions going all the way back to the FD mount with the 1 series being the daddy but that could change with their modern mirrorless range.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

Memdroid said:


> Cute



Sorry, it is a pet peeve of mine. Every time I see it it is like nails scraping a chalkboard.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

AlanF said:


> I really wonder about the 300mm f/2.8. The price of used ones has nosedived. There was a huge take up by birders and nature photographers when the II was released because it was the way to get to a hand held 600mm with a 2xTC and and f/4 420mm with good IS, and the only alternatives the antique 400/5.6 without IS, the older 100-400mm with two stops only or the dismal 400mm DO. The introduction of the 400mm DO II effectively killed it at the top end, as did the 100-400mm II at the affordable.



Most of the cheaper EF 300mm f/2.8 used lenses I see are either the pre-IS or first IS version. Where are you seeing bargains on the EF 300mm f/2.8 L IS II? What few I can even find available in the U.S. at 9 or 9+ grade are all over $5K, with a new one selling for $6100 (and probably cheaper via Canon Price Watch).


----------



## Mark3794 (Feb 1, 2020)

No new informations? I don't need sleep, i need answers!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Bahrd said:


> When you are "in the field" do you take pictures or do you measure the 'per pixel' DR?



I actually do 'measure' it, only implicitly. In the field I'm limited by exactly the per-pixel DR. I usually do ETTR in landscapes and I roughly know that a certain range from the left of the histogram is not recoverable. If I can't push it to the right any more, I know I have to do exposure bracketing/HDR.



Bahrd said:


> @Kit. gave you a nice analogy (perhaps originated from audio DSP): you can have a 1-bit sampler which is equivalent to (if not better than) a 14-bit ADC. You just need to sample faster.



I responded above already. Yes you can improve the DR by digital processing, noise reduction, exposure blending, HDR etc. All these methods have very little to do with the sensor performance as you either lose information (by noise reduction) or need to capture multiple images. We need better sensors to reduce the need of HDR. Stacking/blending isn't always possible.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Excuse me? A99 II is a formidable camera, albeit a bit nutty -- but there is a mirror.
> 
> - A



Can you still buy a new α99 II via an authorized Sony dealer?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I have an economics background and having two separate lens lineups for essentially the same camera (one being mirrorless, the other DSLR) makes no economic sense.
> 
> Canon is finally coming out with the mirrorless body worthy of their professional grade R lenses. At some point (when they judge that there is enough market penetration for the cameras) they will cease production of the EF version of the R lenses.



Here's the thing. *Canon does not yet have two separate (full) lens lineups in both mounts yet, and won't for quite some time. *

There are over 80 different EF lenses in their current catalog. The RF stable is not nearly that broad yet.


----------



## padam (Feb 1, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> No new informations? I don't need sleep, i need answers!


It is going to be a pre-announcement, probably with the camera on display just like with the 1DX III or the RF holy trinity of lenses, and the full details will have to wait until July.

So they might not actually reveal a lot more than what has been leaked already.


----------



## Joules (Feb 1, 2020)

padam said:


> It is going to be a pre-announcement, probably with the camera on display just like with the 1DX III or the RF holy trinity of lenses, and the full details will have to wait until July.
> 
> So they might not actually reveal a lot more than what has been leaked already.


The 1DX III is the only camera in recent Canon history that got a development announcement before the proper announcement which revealed all the details. I don't think any other bodies will get the same treatment. So we can expect to know most of the details about the next R in the upcoming weeks.

I mean, it also wouldn't really make sense to have a development announcement for a camera that has no predecessor and therefore only becomes interesting to people once they know enough of the specs.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Almost 20.



And you really think the difference between DSLRs and MILCs is anywhere as revolutionary as the difference between film and digital?


----------



## Bahrd (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> [...] All these methods have very little to do with the sensor performance as you either lose information (by noise reduction) or need to capture multiple images. [...]


The mistake in you inference is an assumption that the after-sampling/quantization DSP always means a loss of information. It doesn't.
♫ _All in all it's all just _[a counting photons from]_ bricks in the wall _♫ - whether you sum them all at once (a big pixel with a great full well capacity) or in smaller chunks (with smaller pixels with shallower wells) and just add them up. 

The Eric Fossum's Quanta Image Sensor is an example of a 1-bit sensor with, in principle, an unlimited DR.


----------



## padam (Feb 1, 2020)

Joules said:


> The 1DX III is the only camera in recent Canon history that got a development announcement before the proper announcement which revealed all the details. I don't think any other bodies will get the same treatment. So we can expect to know most of the details about the next R in the upcoming weeks.
> 
> I mean, it also wouldn't really make sense to have a development announcement for a camera that has no predecessor and therefore only becomes interesting to people once they know enough of the specs.


Some sources claimed it doesn't look too different from the R besides the joystick, scroll wheel and photo/video switch, so in that regards it does have a predecessor, just not a direct one, since it is a higher end model and not a R Mark II.
That's the point, if the leaked specs are mostly true, then the headline features are already there to grab the attention. Besides that, they just need to show how it looks like. That's what Panasonic started with the GH5 if I remember correctly.

It also doesn't make sense to fully announce a camera and show how it exactly works, etc. when it is only going to be available in the summer anyway.


----------



## Joules (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So it's on your side now to explain how you're going to have more than 14 stops in a 14-bit file.


By not encoding the numbers linearly  

Are you guys not just arguing if absolute or relative measures are more relevant at this point? In which case the answer should be simply subjective and dependent on a specific use case. 



padam said:


> It also doesn't make sense to fully announce a camera and show how it exactly works, etc. when it is only going to be available in the summer anyway.


Yeah, I'm simply sceptical of the July part for that reason. But maybe the strain on their production caused by launching so many bodies with new technologies in such short time (90D and M6 II, 1DX III and supposedly 3 more FF bodies just this year) is bigger than anticipated and they require greater lead times ro get stocks to the level they are confident with.


----------



## Gazwas (Feb 1, 2020)

padam said:


> Some sources claimed it doesn't look too different from the R besides the joystick, scroll wheel and photo/video switch, so in that regards it does have a predecessor, just not a direct one, since it is a higher end model and not a R Mark II.
> That's the point, if the leaked specs are mostly true, then the headline features are already there to grab the attention. Besides that, they just need to show how it looks like. That's what Panasonic started with the GH5 if I remember correctly.
> 
> It also doesn't make sense to fully announce a camera and show how it exactly works, etc. when it is only going to be available in the summer anyway.


The July release time frame is a strange one but suppose it gives Canon something to talk about at the photo shows they mentioned in their financial report before release. If they don't open orders until the end of July then customers won't get cameras until late August or early September which I'd say was practically autum.


----------



## padam (Feb 1, 2020)

Joules said:


> Yeah, I'm simply sceptical of the July part for that reason. But maybe the strain on their production caused by launching so many bodies with new technologies in such short time (90D and M6 II, 1DX III and supposedly 3 more FF bodies just this year) is bigger than anticipated and they require greater lead times ro get stocks to the level they are confident with.


It is simply in the final stage of development with the hardware being final, but the product itself not quite production ready yet, that will only start later and they will make sure that it works reliably. Photokina looks like a good event to present it in full production form, quote: With Canon suggesting it is ‘eager’ to launch new products at the show.

Just they did with the RF holy trinity, they want to assure users or potential future buyers that is it definitely coming and reveal some things that confirms their claims about being fully committed to mirrorless. If they wouldn't do this, it would just make people even more impatient and unsure about what is coming and when. After these two cameras, they probably won't need to do this again for a while.


----------



## Yasko (Feb 1, 2020)

Matthew Saville said:


> Is the person behind SonyAlphaRumors ghost-writing a CR post? This has got to be a contender for the biggest load of "wishful thinking rumor" I've ever read.
> 
> The more shocking thing is that half the commenters here aren't even questioning it. Did it not raise any eyebrows that the rumor has a bunch of insane specs, paired with something as silly and minor as "no touch bar"? Red flag!
> 
> Speaking of "red", ...you do realize that 8K RAW is usually reserved for $15-30K cameras, right?



Now with more time having passed and some of these (if not all) speccs more or less „confirmed“:
The EOS R5 may well step into the footsteps of the EOS 5D mk II back in 2008!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Bahrd said:


> The mistake in you inference is an assumption that the after-sampling/quantization DSP always means a loss of information. It doesn't.
> ♫ _All in all it's all just _[a counting photons from]_ bricks in the wall _♫ - whether you sum them all at once (a big pixel with a great full well capacity) or in smaller chunks (with smaller pixels with shallower wells) and just add them up.


Down-sizing is loss of information, noise reduction is loss of information. You can combine several pixels into one but you lose resolution and colour data. Btw when one of the pixels gets saturated, you can't combine properly anymore. Say one large pixel has a well capacity of 8 electrons, two smaller ones 4 each. Now the two small pixels receive 8 photons, 5 + 3. The resulting value will be 7 while a larger pixel would have gotten all 8. Smaller well capacity is still a limiting factor.



Bahrd said:


> The Eric Fossum's Quanta Image Sensor is an example of a 1-bit sensor with, in principle, an unlimited DR.


I'm looking forward to seeing it implemented in a real camera, but I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Basically my point was, you can't make 7D's sensor perform on par with A7RIV by applying noise reduction in post.
How does Quanta Image Sensor prove or disprove my point?


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I'm not trying it. You are


Not me. You. I'm asking why you think the information you are trying to record exists in the first place.



Quarkcharmed said:


> So it's on your side now to explain how you're going to have more than 14 stops in a 14-bit file.


Easily. By not trying to extract 14 stops of DR at the spatial frequencies you cannot sample from a lower resolution sensor anyway.

Or should I explain you what spatial frequencies are and how a higher resolution sensor has more of them?


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Down-sizing is loss of information, noise reduction is loss of information. You can combine several pixels into one but you lose resolution and colour data. Btw when one of the pixels gets saturated, you can't combine properly anymore. Say one large pixel has a well capacity of 8 electrons, two smaller ones 4 each. Now the two small pixels receive 8 photons, 5 + 3. The resulting value will be 7 while a larger pixel would have gotten all 8.


Actually, it's the other way around. On a sensor with smaller pixels in your example, you know that you are _near_ the saturation. On a sensor with bigger pixels, this information is lost.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Actually, it's the other way around. On a sensor with smaller pixels in your example, you know that you are _near_ the saturation. On a sensor with bigger pixels, this information is lost.


Ok, you know you're near the saturation, and how do you use that information? Remember you intended to combine two pixels data into one. But you got 7 photons/electrons instead of 8. But you know you lost some information. And?..


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Ok, you know you're near the saturation, and how do you use that information?


The sensor has already done it for me, by compressing the response curve in the highlights.



Quarkcharmed said:


> Remember you intended to combine two pixels data into one. But you got 7 photons/electrons instead of 8. But you know you lost some information. And?..


I haven't lost information, I gained it. I know that the signal lies in the range `7-sqrt(7)..7+sqrt(7)`, not `8-sqrt(8)..infinity`.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Not me. You. I'm asking why you think the information you are trying to record exists in the first place.


Well capacity of modern sensors is usually greater than 2^14 = 16384 electrons if this is what you were asking. For example, 5DIV vs A7RIV





__





DxOMark Derived Sensor Characteristics






www.photonstophotos.net


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Well capacity of modern sensors is usually greater than 2^14 = 16384 electrons if this is what you were asking. For example, 5DIV vs A7RIV
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Judging by full well capacity vs. read noise, 14 bits are exactly enough for both.

You seem to think that sensor manufacturers are idiots. They aren't.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Most of the cheaper EF 300mm f/2.8 used lenses I see are either the pre-IS or first IS version. Where are you seeing bargains on the EF 300mm f/2.8 L IS II? What few I can even find available in the U.S. at 9 or 9+ grade are all over $5K, with a new one selling for $6100 (and probably cheaper via Canon Price Watch).


When I sold mine in Sept 2017, the going price for excellent used in the UK was £4,200-£4,500. Art Morris had posted then on his site, where people do buy and sell used lenses, that the price of the 300/2.8 II had collapsed

The price on the top two UK sites for used gear is now £3,100 to £3,500 for really good ones ($4000-4500). There was greater availability before Christmas.
https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/used-equi...-fit-lenses/canon-ef-300mm-f-2-8-l-is-ii-usm/
Excellent £3,500
https://www.wexphotovideo.com/search/?q=canon+EF+300mm+f/2.8+II&search_type=Used
The lightly used (grade 9) are £3,099 to £3,499. (Wex always understates the condition, my experience of their “lightly used” grade 9s is that they look mint).

ps Just checked Art Morris's recent sales: "Charlie Curry sold his lightly used Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 IS II USM lens in like-new condition for only $3299.00"
Last one sold on eBay USA 17 Jan 2020 "excellent plus" $3,919.








Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 II IS L USM Lens for sale online | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 II IS L USM Lens at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



www.ebay.co.uk





I don't post unless I am sure of my facts.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I haven't lost information, I gained it. I know that the signal lies in the range `7-sqrt(7)..7+sqrt(7)`, not `8-sqrt(8)..infinity`.



And what do you do with this information? In the end you need to assign a value to the pixel. Also if the values were 8+2 so you got 8 clipped at 4, 4+2 =6 instead of 10. 6 + sqrt(6) < 10, so your calculated range is wrong.
You're simply getting lower values in the blown out parts of the image.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Judging by full well capacity vs. read noise, 14 bits are exactly enough for both.
> 
> You seem to think that sensor manufacturers are idiots. They aren't.


I'm not sure what you think I think. Why would I think sensor manufacturers were idiots?? You asked if there's enough well capacity to feed 14 bit ADC, if I understood you correctly. Yes there's enough electrons. All good. And?..


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> And what do you do with this information? In the end you need to assign a value to the pixel.


7 is good enough.



Quarkcharmed said:


> Also if the values were 8+2 so you got 8 clipped at 4, 4+2 =6 instead of 10. 6 + sqrt(6) < 10, so your calculated range is wrong.


No, it just tells that you chose the values with the difference too big for typical shot noise. So, have you switched to talking about inadequate spatial resolution of the bigger pixel sensor this time?


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I'm not sure what you think I think. Why would I think sensor manufacturers were idiots?? You asked if there's enough well capacity to feed 14 bit ADC, if I understood you correctly. Yes there's enough electrons. All good. And?..


OK, sorry about it.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What if...
> 
> Only the R5 gets IBIS and the 5D Mark V does not? What happens then?



I suspect the answer is more dependent upon whether the IBIS system CAN be implemented inside a DSLR. Can the mechanics necessary for IBIS fit in the same 5D body whilst still sharing that space with a mirror box? I dont know the answer to that.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Ok, you know you're near the saturation, and how do you use that information? Remember you intended to combine two pixels data into one. But you got 7 photons/electrons instead of 8. But you know you lost some information. And?..


I’m not going to pretend I have any idea what you guys are talking about but I did have a question. Do you find the DR in Canon’s current 30mp sensor insufficient for your needs photographically or is this more of an intellectual exercise? Not being snarky I’m actually curious to know. So far I feel like the noise in the current Canons I own is very well controlled and I don’t really have any issues. I’m not a traditional landscape photographer so I’m probably not pushing the boundaries. I’m assuming if the new sensor doesn’t lose any ground to the current 30mp than it’s all good. I know the Sony’s are technically superior but, other than the 7D2, I don’t currently have any DR issues.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2020)

padam said:


> It is simply in the final stage of development with the hardware being final, but the product itself not quite production ready yet, that will only start later and they will make sure that it works reliably. Photokina looks like a good event to present it in full production form, quote: With Canon suggesting it is ‘eager’ to launch new products at the show.



This R5 and R6 I'm betting will be on demo at CP+ in 4 weeks. Ship date in July. Why? Olympics in Tokyo Start Fri July 24th, 2020 ..... Feb 13th official announcement by Canon is rumored...


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 1, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I’m not going to pretend I have any idea what you guys are talking about but I did have a question. Do you find the DR in Canon’s current 30mp sensor insufficient for your needs photographically or is this more of an intellectual exercise? Not being snarky I’m actually curious to know. So far I feel like the noise in the current Canons I own is very well controlled and I don’t really have any issues. I’m not a traditional landscape photographer so I’m probably not pushing the boundaries. I’m assuming if the new sensor doesn’t lose any ground to the current 30mp than it’s all good. I know the Sony’s are technically superior but, other than the 7D2, I don’t currently have any DR issues.


I'll respond just because I take a lot of no flash photos in my dark apartment of my grandson and this is the only place where noise might be an issue for me. I find the R's sensor to be very good. The hardest I push it is to ISO 6400 though I have gone to ISO 10,000. Unless I pixel peep the files are great. My 5D Mark III was not near as good as the 30mp sensor in my opinion. I can't get technical. These other guys are able. I can only say what I *believe* practically.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Feb 1, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'll respond just because I take a lot of no flash photos in my dark apartment of my grandson and this is the only place where noise might be an issue for me. I find the R's sensor to be very good. The hardest I push it is to ISO 6400 though I have gone to ISO 10,000. Unless I pixel peep the files are great. My 5D Mark III was not near as good as the 30mp sensor in my opinion. I can't get technical. These other guys are able. I can only say what I *believe* practically.


That’s about where I am. I’m still reworking 5D3 flies trying to manage the noise, banding and such but I’m fine with the newer sensor. I have an APSC camera with a Sony sensor and I guess maybe it’s a little better but not so I’d really notice. Certainly not like the difference between the 5D3 and 5D4.


----------



## mattshaheen (Feb 1, 2020)

I’m really hoping the layout is something along these lines. That new AF trackpad joystick on the 1DX3 looks killer!


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Feb 1, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> This R5 and R6 I'm betting will be on demo at CP+ in 4 weeks. Ship date in July. Why? Olympics in Tokyo Start Fri July 24th, 2020 ..... Feb 13th official announcement by Canon is rumored...


FujiFilm X-T4 and new Sony A7S are also rumored to be announced in the same period. Canon would probably like to get something out to the press at the same time even if it’s not ready to ship. Worked in my case. I’ll probably delay picking up an X-T4 until I see how the new Canon’s play out.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Feb 1, 2020)

mattshaheen said:


> I’m really hoping the layout is something along these lines. That new AF trackpad joystick on the 1DX3 looks killer!


Agree but a larger viewfinder with more eye relief would also be nice.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 1, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> That’s about where I am. I’m still reworking 5D3 flies trying to manage the noise, banding and such but I’m fine with the newer sensor. I have an APSC camera with a Sony sensor and I guess maybe it’s a little better but not so I’d really notice. Certainly not like the difference between the 5D3 and 5D4.


That's the amazing part: With all the debate between larger and smaller pixels and how smaller pixels result in more noise, the 30mp sensor beats the 20mp sensor in my eyes. Not saying their debate is not valid, just that the tech advancements are making this possible. It may very well be that the new 45mp sensor rumored for the R5 beats the 30mp sensor in the R. That will be interesting to watch. In my opinion the new sensor will trounce the 5DS(r) sensor in that regard.

In addition, I have been very happy with the ability to crop more and still get fantastic output compared to the 5D Mark III. I'll never be able to get an R5, but maybe a Mark II.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 1, 2020)

mattshaheen said:


> I’m really hoping the layout is something along these lines. That new AF trackpad joystick on the 1DX3 looks killer!
> View attachment 188477


That would be very nice. Some of you guys are unbelievably good with Photoshop.


----------



## Dragon (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The EOS 5D Mark II has a single CF slot. No SD card slot to slow anything down.


My bad. My finger stutter on keyboard and I missed an I.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2020)

mattshaheen said:


> I’m really hoping the layout is something along these lines. That new AF trackpad joystick on the 1DX3 looks killer!
> View attachment 188477


The R5 will be laid out like a 5D. You have to make that crowd feel right at home. Nice mock up


----------



## AEWest (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Here's the thing. *Canon does not yet have two separate (full) lens lineups in both mounts yet, and won't for quite some time. *
> 
> There are over 80 different EF lenses in their current catalog. The RF stable is not nearly that broad yet.



Correct. And that is why R to EF adapter is so important for the roadmap. As per my previous post, I expect Canon to continue production of EF lenses until there is broad market penetration of R cameras and then they will stop production of the duplicate EF lenses, eg 70-200 f2.8.

As per Canon Rumors a further 8 R lenses are expected this year. The timing of this phase out is really dependent on the success of the new pro level R cameras.


----------



## davo (Feb 1, 2020)

R5 Ergonomics/design. I have a wishlist for the R5's appearance and physical design. Some issues WILL apparently be addressed, namely the touchbar removal, addition of the Control Dial in back and the addition of the Movie/LV switch.

I also really dislike the R's silly, huge power switch. Its looks so amateurish and is a waste of space.

I am NOT crazy about how changing modes works. I would prefer a simple dedicated mode dial.

The possible implementation of a touch sensitive smart button (ala 1D) to move the focus points is interesting BUT it is on the same AF ON button usually configured to back button focus. Wont I likely inadvertently move my focus point as my thumb is on the button awaiting my press. I say make it a separate control.

The overall body design I think is a bit too boxy and toy-like ( too Sonyish) . I prefer more organic smooth curves. A slightly taller design would be nicer hand fit.

I am a 5D user currently and love the feel of that camera design. I dont expect them to copy this design into the R5 but the 5D has kept most of its design elements the same for decades.....for a reason. Users like it and it works.


----------



## Bahrd (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Say one large pixel has a well capacity of 8 electrons, two smaller ones 4 each. Now the two small pixels receive 8 photons, 5 + 3. The resulting value will be 7 while a larger pixel would have gotten all 8. Smaller well capacity is still a limiting factor.


Yes and no...  Yes - it is limiting factor, no - it can be used as an advantage: like in the film days you have the information you can use for highlight recovery. 

PS
I do not discus the actual equipment. Their parameters are measured and anyone can pick whatever is good for him/her. An I am also eager to see the Fossum's idea materialized.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> And you really think the difference between DSLRs and MILCs is anywhere as revolutionary as the difference between film and digital?



Not in the sense of image quality or convenience (I used to have a dark room, now I have Lightroom!), but the integration between video and stills.

And this is a key consideration for the manufacturers who have to grab as much market share as possible in a rapidly shrinking market. They literally have a choice to make.

Again, I am looking at it from the manufacturers point of view. Given the rapid growth of Sony's mirrorless system market share, there is clearly broad market acceptance for MILC.

Because EVF have gotten so much better over the past few years, there are now more advantages than disadvantages for this format. And I believe Canon is all in now judging by how many R lenses they have and are in the pipeline.

I do like OVF, but as a consumer I have to decide where the market is going to future proof my next $3,500 camera purchase. That R glass is amazing and I will still have full access to existing EF lenses.

Put it this way, if the specs were similar would you put down $3,500 on a 5D5 or R5?

To me the answer is clear.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 1, 2020)

AlanF said:


> The Sony and Nikon forums are just like the CR, complaining about their shortcomings and how Sony and Nikon are ignoring them, the new releases are no better than the previous etc. The truth is they are all manufacturers trying to optimise their profits and pay their CEOs and shareholders.



Hold on! Are you saying...are you telling me...that *SONY IS *******?!?!?*


----------



## reef58 (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Not in the sense of image quality or convenience (I used to have a dark room, now I have Lightroom!), but the integration between video and stills.
> 
> And this is a key consideration for the manufacturers who have to grab as much market share as possible in a rapidly shrinking market. They literally have a choice to make.
> 
> ...



But, and I don't know, has everyone who really wants mirrorless already bought one? Are there millions on the fence and if so what are they waiting for?


----------



## AEWest (Feb 1, 2020)

reef58 said:


> But, and I don't know, has everyone who really wants mirrorless already bought one? Are there millions on the fence and if so what are they waiting for?


A proper mirrorless body from Canon.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 1, 2020)

reef58 said:


> But, and I don't know, has everyone who really wants mirrorless already bought one? Are there millions on the fence and if so what are they waiting for?


Everyone who wants an Ford F-150 has one already too. No need to make anymore of them. 

1. They're waiting on the $
2. They're waiting on a body they desire.
3. They're waiting for the body they want to drop in price.
4. They're trying to decide whether or not they want to go mirrorless.
5. They recently upgraded a DSLR and it isn't time to buy another body yet.
6. New people entering the hobby.
7. Waiting for the right lenses.
8. etc.


----------



## Rule556 (Feb 1, 2020)

reef58 said:


> But, and I don't know, has everyone who really wants mirrorless already bought one? Are there millions on the fence and if so what are they waiting for?



I don’t think there are millions on the fence, as only a small percentage of the market are as obsessed as the people on this board. There are however, millions of DSLR owners who just need a compelling reason to upgrade. Amazing glass, and stable, high-performance, second gen Canon mirrorless bodies will likely be compelling enough for a major market shift. I manage an after sales department for a luxury brand product in a different sector, and it’s always interesting to see how the fan boy forum concerns are completely different than the actual concerns and problems that typical users face. They can be remarkably different. Marketing departments are completely data driven these days, Canon has a pretty good idea about how the next few years will shake out I’m sure. I’m looking forward to watching it.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I recall this very argument from you in one of the previous conversations. Digital post-processing manipulations are intrinsically flawed because they change the detail, NR simply decreases the resolution.



If that was all it did it would still alter SNR. But that's not an accurate summary of modern NR algorithms. And it's completely wrong for color NR, color noise being arguably the most intrusive component.



> But it's getting even worse when you apply NR to one image and don't apply it to another.



No one is arguing that there's 0 read noise difference between a 5D4 and a D850. And no one is arguing that you can't also apply NR to a D850 file. The question is how perceivable is the read noise difference before processing. And if the answer is "not very" then what happens when NR shoves that difference further towards or below the absolute limits of human perception?

In the real world it plays out this way: the D850 owner does a hard shadow push and prints. The 5D4 owner does a hard shadow push, maybe bumps LNR/CNR a bit, and prints. That's the source of my "it's a processing difference" statement. By analogy to resolution we're not debating 50mp vs 20mp. We're debating 50mp vs 45mp.

5Ds/sR vs D850? Yeah, there are scenes where I will blend two exposures but my friend can simply push the shadows. But the 5D4? Move the NR sliders a bit.



> The 70D, which should be roughly the same as your 7D, is significantly worse than 5DIV, but A7RIII is a bit better and I'd be extremely happy if Canon catches up.



That might be the first time I've seen you refer to a 5D4 vs. Sony/Nikon DR difference as "a bit better." I would call the Sony/Nikon sensors a bit better. I guess I would by happy to if Canon closed that gap. But I don't anticipate it because of DPAF.



> I know. I still think there's some flaw in their method. 14 stops is the theoretical limit. Any measurement above means they do digital manipulations so they don't actually measure the sensor performance.



Altering the view size simply trades spatial information for SNR. And it doesn't have to be through 'digital manipulation.' Make a print where the shadow noise seems unacceptable to you nose-on-print. Now view it from 10 ft away.

It's not just a matter of human perception or emotion either. Again, at the extreme you can treat an entire visible light digital camera sensor as if it was one single detector and, with a long enough light-blocked exposure, reliably and accurately measure small amounts of ionizing radiation. There's literally an app for that. But if you just look at the SNR and noise specs for the sensor vs. the impact of the radiation being measured you would assume it to be impossible.



> But in the filed I don't care about the sensor design tricks. I care if I should shoot with dual pixel enabled and adjust my exposure hoping that DPRSplit will help get 1 stop more in the highlights. Yes it helps but somewhat randomly and often fails, so I can't rely on it.



Not arguing that at all. But the fact that it can work...sometimes...tells us that the 1ev difference is not due to Canon's ADC design. It's due to the dual pixel arrangement.



> The difference is small but the IV lags behind in many ISO points at high ISO which is exactly where the pixel size difference should be more prominent.



Not for DR. Even Canon's oldest, worst DR designs converge with Sony's best and have similar DR at high ISO (within 0.5ev) because high ISO is dominated by photon shot noise. Between the latest Sony A7r's the differences are so small that I don't think we can reliably tell if pixel size is related at all. Pixel size should be related...the 1DX2 and 1DX and D5 should absolutely dominate DR measurements...but for some reason that's not what we observe at this time.


----------



## davidhfe (Feb 1, 2020)

reef58 said:


> But, and I don't know, has everyone who really wants mirrorless already bought one? Are there millions on the fence and if so what are they waiting for?



Me. Here's the thing: most folks aren't looking for a mirrorless camera, they're looking for a *better* camera. And for some sorts of shooting*, mirrorless is just at the point where it's better*. The R didn't offer any improvements over my 5D4 (which I love but misses on a few areas). I expect the next R series to be better all around than the 5D4, while providing some mirrorless advantages:

- Higher fps due to reduced mechanical complexity
- Better AF (full frame coverage, better tracking, eye AF)
- Silent modes for event shooting
- As somebody who occasionally does some video, I'm looking for a "less hassle" video experience than the 5D4.

The R as it stands right now doesn't really nail all those. The FPS in particular really hurts when shooting sports (I shoot beer league stuff, not pro)

*Or, in the Canon ecosystem, about to be better.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's interesting, do you have a link with more details on ionising radiation?



Look up RadioactivityCounter for iOS.



> Regardless, when you scale the image down *you no longer measure the sensor performance*.



Of course you do. The sensor captured that data. Given the resolution of today's sensors if anything one could argue that DxO's print scores are more relevant than their screen scores...or Photons to Photos graphs...because that's how people will view the image.



> Instead, you measure how good the image is for digital noise reduction [through downsampling].



You don't have to actually downsample for the effect. Just step back from the monitor/print.



> All absolute values of measured DR become totally meaningless.



One could argue that the 'absolute DR measurement' of a single photoreceptor is meaningless when evaluating a sensor with many millions of receptors.



> However they can be used for _relative_ comparison, e.g. A7RIV is better than 5DIV _if _the images are downsampled and normalised. Very limited use, but it's good enough to create a popular site with the camera scoring system.



The most popular site when it comes to measuring DR is DxO and the measurement most often quoted is the normalized print one.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> ...noise reduction is loss of information.



Depends on the algorithm and settings.



> Btw when one of the pixels gets saturated, you can't combine properly anymore.



Not a practical problem since today's sensors are 14-bit devices and we have both 16-bit and 32-bit processing on the desktop.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Can you still buy a new α99 II via an authorized Sony dealer?




Apparently, you can:









Sony Alpha a99 II DSLR Camera (Body Only)


Buy Sony Alpha a99 II DSLR Camera (Body Only) featuring 42MP Full-Frame Exmor R BSI CMOS Sensor, BIONZ X Image Processor & Front-End LSI, 0.5" 2.36M-Dot XGA OLED Tru-Finder EVF, Internal UHD 4K Video & S-Log3 Gamma, S&Q Motion in Full HD from 1-120 fps, Hybrid Phase Detection AF System, ISO...




www.bhphotovideo.com





- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

Joules said:


> The 1DX III is the only camera in recent Canon history that got a development announcement before the proper announcement which revealed all the details. I don't think any other bodies will get the same treatment. So we can expect to know most of the details about the next R in the upcoming weeks.




I'm sorry, that prediction probably won't hold up. We may even get all the topline specs CR Guy has posted to be validated in some early preview, but we'll never get all the fine print.

People don't start freaking out about a model until either a manual PDF is found or all of the fine print is outed, which won't be at a sneak peak. Will the AF still track at 20 fps stills? Is there a massive video crop? What's the AF sensitivity, battery life, etc? We probably won't know all that until very close to release.

- A


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 1, 2020)

reef58 said:


> But, and I don't know, has everyone who really wants mirrorless already bought one? Are there millions on the fence and if so what are they waiting for?



I'm actually a bit resistant to mirrorless because I have yet to see an EVF I liked as much as a good OVF. (I do have an M kit.) I do acknowledge that exposure preview and subject tracking AF can be useful tools. But I'm also old school. I can spot meter a highlight and nail exposure, and keep an AF point on target, both pretty reliably. So these features literally seem less to me than OVF, battery life, and handling with larger lenses.

That said, I'm sure I'll buy an R body when there's one that offers features I want. That may be the R5 given the awesome video specs. At the time it would have been the first R if that camera had just offered oversampled, full width 4k.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> The R5 will be laid out like a 5D. You have to make that crowd feel right at home. Nice mock up




Here's hoping, but I want to see how:

A proper 5D thumbwheel
A tilty-flippy
Thumb drag gestures
All coexist. Something tells me we may get all of that but at a price we don't expect -- thumb wheel brought more to the right, thumb wheel reduced in size, thumb drag move is too far to the left for some hands, etc.

Very curious to see what they come up with.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Put it this way, if the specs were similar would you put down $3,500 on a 5D5 or R5?
> 
> To* me each of us*, the answer is clear.




*(key edit above)*

The answer is clear _for each individual in this market segment_, and probably with a 40-60, 50-50 sort of outcome. Sony succeeding and Canon focusing resources in RF is not enough to tell me that Canon will abruptly abandon the nontrivial part of the market that got them here.

Logic and pragmatism won't bully EF users into RF -- value and opportunity will. RF cameras will start to outperform their EF counterparts (not just in specs, but in capabilities, workflow, a proper RF portfolio, assistance to the photographer, etc.) until which point some their FF userbase changes in makeup to become predominantly mirrorless. 

At that point, sure, Canon would slow down (or not pursue) refreshes of EF SLR product lines, start to obsolete older EF glass, and -- finally -- announce the end of EF lens production. But that will be a good 10 years from now, IMHO.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

reef58 said:


> But, and I don't know, has everyone who really wants mirrorless already bought one? Are there millions on the fence and if so what are they waiting for?




Many folks want mirrorless in their current SLR's price point / functionality / level of prestige / expectation of build quality.

So the crude analogy for folks today would be a person who desperately wanted a hybrid automobile in (say) the year 2000... but that's person's daily driver at that time was a truck that they loved. Sure, Toyota had hybrid technology you wanted, but you aren't going to give up all the things your truck's form factor accomplishes brilliantly just to get that technology. So you wait for a hybrid truck to come out.

That's why so many folks are pumped about the R6 and R5. Mirrorless is about to get a sporty coupe and a well appointed truck.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

Rule556 said:


> I don’t think there are millions on the fence, as only a small percentage of the market are as obsessed as the people on this board. There are however, millions of DSLR owners who just need a compelling reason to upgrade.




You need three things:

Performance levels and features in RF that are not available in EF
RF lenses that EF will never or can never offer
The knowledge the Canon is eventually moving away from EF -- more frequent RF refreshes, more new glass, etc.
Over time, each three of the above become more and more compelling until there's just a small subset of 1-/5-series pros saying "You can take my mirror out of my cold, dead hands." Canon will keep giving them a new SLR, but at a very high price very infrequently.

But I contend that transition (esp. for the higher end bodies) will still take a good 10 years.

- A


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Put it this way, if the specs were similar would you put down $3,500 on a 5D5 or R5?
> 
> To me the answer is clear.



I think I would have to see the EVF and AF in action, and handle the body with a larger lens attached. For all the hype about mirrorless AF I still feel like off-mirror PDAF is faster/more reliable if you can keep the point on target, and that's after comparing against an A9. A friend who regularly uses both DSLR/MILC (Nikon) said the same thing to me just yesterday.

That said, I could see myself owning both. Budget willing you want two bodies any way. Why not have DSLR and MILC?

IMHO Canon should offer at least one more generation of pro DSLRs. They've done that with the 1DX3. I would love to see a 5D5 and, if/when they release their high resolution R, a 5DsR mark II. Canon marketing probably doesn't want to do that because they want to consolidate lines and encourage people to buy RF lenses. But Canon should consider that those of us asking for this would likely own one of each.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> You need three things:
> 
> Performance levels and features in RF that are not available in EF
> RF lenses that EF will never or can never offer
> ...


In a perfect world I would agree with you. They should keep both lines for several years to keep all photographers happy.

But I see a shrinking camera market that is forcing manufacturers to rationalize their offerings very quickly so that they can no longer be all things to all people. The market is making that decision for them. (I'd hate to be a Pentax shareholder right about now)

Just look at Canon's financial statements over the past few years - it shows how quickly the camera market is shrinking. Therefore rationalization is necessary in this environment, not in 10 years but now.

So to keep similar spec MILC and DSLRs lines going and splitting your market share between the two makes little sense. Your costs per unit will be much higher for each line including for lenses, so unless you can charge significantly more for each camera, you will lose margin on each camera. Also your development costs will be much higher.

These are not the outcomes shareholders or CEOs want. That is why I believe Canon is rushing out R glass so quickly - they are basically telling the market that mirrorless is the future, and the future is now.


----------



## reef58 (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> A proper mirrorless body from Canon.



Where is the bar where all of these people are going to rush in and buy? Specifically.


----------



## reef58 (Feb 1, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Everyone who wants an Ford F-150 has one already too. No need to make anymore of them.
> 
> 1. They're waiting on the $
> 2. They're waiting on a body they desire.
> ...



That analogy doesn't work because in this case it is really not a F150 anymore. Canon continues to produce the (F150), but this is more like F150's are dead (DSLR) everyone is waiting on the hybrid version of the F150(mirrorless).


----------



## analoggrotto (Feb 1, 2020)

reef58 said:


> That analogy doesn't work because in this case it is really not a F150 anymore. Canon continues to produce the (F150), but this is more like F150's are dead (DSLR) everyone is waiting on the hybrid version of the F150(mirrorless).


Funny analogy: Electric F-150 is the mirrorless to the F-150's DSLR





__





First Look at the Electric Ford F-150's Frunk


As shown in a patent application, the upcoming truck's front trunk will have two separate compartments and can be accessed without opening the hood.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> But I see a shrinking camera market that is forcing manufacturers to rationalize their offerings very quickly so that they can no longer be all things to all people. The market is making that decision for them. (I'd hate to be a Pentax shareholder right about now)




Canon is too big and has too much money in longer term investments/inventory, etc. to rationalize everything in a rapid manner. Far more likely they will:

Phase 1 (in progress): Publicly state that they will no longer make new EF lenses, and not publicly slow down some SLR refreshes or just cancel specific lower-runner SLR refresh projects
Phase 2 (3-5 years maybe): Throttle down EF production or make final large EF orders, shut down those lines, and sell to depletion; we start to see bread butter Rebels and XXD bodies go mirrorless only
Phase 3 (8-10 years): Once the tipping point is hit for camera bodies in service / in actual use, they'd announce obsolescene of EF lenses and then you see a fire sale at all the resellers. Only 1-series and possibly 5-series keep their mirrors.
They have a way to go.



AEWest said:


> So to keep similar spec MILC and DSLRs lines going and splitting your market share between the two makes little sense. Your costs per unit will be much higher for each line including for lenses, so unless you can charge significantly more for each camera, you will lose margin on each camera. Also your development costs will be much higher.




Again, you are speaking logically, not pragmatically. 'The world will be cheaper to support on one platform' is entirely true but entirely impractical. All EF users won't move to RF just because that's all Canon offers. If Canon (let's say) aggressive terminated their SLR lines across the board in 2-3 years and said 'you must buy a mirrorless camera', _Nikon will earn a lot of SLR business_. Canon needs to show it users where the next exit is on the freeway -- not force them to take it.

Mirrorless will take over, surely, I don't contend that. But it will not happen overnight. Canon will not burn the people who have trusted it for so long just to get to their desired future state as profitably as possible. That would be cutting their leg off to run faster.

- A


----------



## Eersel (Feb 1, 2020)

If this is true... I'm sold.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

reef58 said:


> Where is the bar where all of these people are going to rush in and buy? Specifically.




It's not far from happening, believe it or not.

If you want an inflection point where mirrorless FF hits (say) 50% of all of Canon's FF bodies in use, I'd argue (at a minimum) you need mirrorless versions of the 5D and 6D that are at least as compelling/effective/reliable as their SLR counterparts, and the RF platform needs to be fleshed out more. RF lenses don't need to clone all of EF as that will take a decade or more. It just needs to have the Top 10-15 most used lenses and point to adaptors for the rest.

We knew the lenses were coming, but now we know the bodies are coming, too.

Once it gets to basic 5-series and 6-series parity with SLR, you'll see some kind of tipping point where EF users feel more comfortable to grab one as a second body, Canon's marketing corps finally peels off some Nikon/Sony users for something their system doesn't have (ergonomics, glass, reliability, interface, etc.) and it kind of snowballs from there.

- A


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I’m not going to pretend I have any idea what you guys are talking about but I did have a question. Do you find the DR in Canon’s current 30mp sensor insufficient for your needs photographically or is this more of an intellectual exercise?


lol, I'm losing the track in this discussion too.
Yes I'd like more DR but current 5DIV performance is ok. If Canon increases the resolution and keeps the DR at the same level, it'll be satisfactory. However I'm struggling with banding sometimes and would also like to see improvements in this area too.


----------



## reefroamer (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Canon is too big and has too much money in longer term investments/inventory, etc. to rationalize everything in a rapid manner. Far more likely they will:
> 
> Phase 1 (in progress): Publicly state that they will no longer make new EF lenses, and not publicly slow down some SLR refreshes or just cancel specific lower-runner SLR refresh projects
> Phase 2 (3-5 years maybe): Throttle down EF production or make final large EF orders, shut down those lines, and sell to depletion; we start to see bread butter Rebels and XXD bodies go mirrorless only
> ...


If the market keeps shrinking and unit sales keep falling, it will be harder and more costly to keep those DSLR customers, even with two legs. At some point, you gotta stop the DSLR bleeding, whatever it takes.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Put it this way, if the specs were similar would you put down $3,500 on a 5D5 or R5?
> 
> To me the answer is clear.


Given that 5D5 is unlikely to have _any_ specs related to EVF, I'd rather wait to check if R5 has any EVF at all.


----------



## Architect1776 (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Canon is too big and has too much money in longer term investments/inventory, etc. to rationalize everything in a rapid manner. Far more likely they will:
> 
> Phase 1 (in progress): Publicly state that they will no longer make new EF lenses, and not publicly slow down some SLR refreshes or just cancel specific lower-runner SLR refresh projects
> Phase 2 (3-5 years maybe): Throttle down EF production or make final large EF orders, shut down those lines, and sell to depletion; we start to see bread butter Rebels and XXD bodies go mirrorless only
> ...



Once Canon has all RF bodies at the sports sidelines and in the press hands as they dominate now with the DSLR then you will see the DSLR fade out fairly rapidly. The same way you saw film disappear.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Here's hoping, but I want to see how:
> 
> A proper 5D thumbwheel
> A tilty-flippy
> ...


Love my thumbwheel. I think the touch drag back AF button is friggin GENIUS and I would fully expect it on the R5 and R6. Tilty flippy Im less convinced would make it On R5 but I wouldnt doubt it. Again not too interested in R5. More interested in R6. That camera thus far appears to fill the gap in my Canon family


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 1, 2020)

Kit. said:


> 7 is good enough.
> 
> 
> No, it just tells that you chose the values with the difference too big for typical shot noise. So, have you switched to talking about inadequate spatial resolution of the bigger pixel sensor this time?


Hmm I think this argument went off the original track 
Originally it was about downsampling that increases DR but loses resolution. My points were, IIRC, 
1. Using noise reduction on 7D, you can't really catch up to 5DIV sensor or A7RIV sensor in terms of DR.
2. After normalisation/downsampling, the resulting absolute DR value is meaningless, especially when it goes above 14 stops in 14-bit sensors. The value can only be used for comparison between the sensors.


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## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

R6 specs just hit CR3, FYI


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## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Once Canon has all RF bodies at the sports sidelines and in the press hands as they dominate now with the DSLR then you will see the DSLR fade out fairly rapidly. The same way you saw film disappear.




Disagree. Because it's not the quantum leap forward that film --> digital was, the value proposition to get folks to switch to mirrorless is watered down in comparison. 1-series will hold on to their mirrors the longest of all.

- A


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## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> If the market keeps shrinking and unit sales keep falling, it will be harder and more costly to keep those DSLR customers, even with two legs. At some point, you gotta stop the DSLR bleeding, whatever it takes.




If this is true, Nikon will buckle and shut down F long before Canon does the same with EF.

It's not time for panic stations, forced migrations and pulling out the rug on longtime customers yet.

- A


----------



## reefroamer (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> If this is true, Nikon will buckle and shut down F long before Canon does the same with EF.
> 
> It's not time for panic stations, forced migrations and pulling out the rug on longtime customers yet.
> 
> - A


Not yet.


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## brad-man (Feb 1, 2020)

I think it's worth considering that Canon produced and inventoried enough EF cameras and lenses they deemed necessary to last a year or two or three before switching the production lines over to RF. They have deep enough pockets to allow for such a move...


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## Ozarker (Feb 1, 2020)

reef58 said:


> That analogy doesn't work because in this case it is really not a F150 anymore. Canon continues to produce the (F150), but this is more like F150's are dead (DSLR) everyone is waiting on the hybrid version of the F150(mirrorless).


I try not to use words like everybody in my posts because I don't live in a vacuum. I don't and can't speak for everyone, nor do I presume to know what everyone wants and when. Everybody is never true (well, everybody dies). Some people go after the Mustang.

I didn't so much want mirrorless when I switched. I wanted the glass. Now I am glad I switched, not just because of the glass, but for the camera too. Different people have different timetables and motives. So when somebody says, "everyone who really wants mirrorless already bought one ," sorry, that is just silly. That's the post I responded to. If that were true then Canon wouldn't be developing the line. I think you misunderstood what I said, because I did not make an analogy between DSLR and Mirrorless.



reef58 said:


> But, and I don't know, has everyone who really wants mirrorless already bought one? Are there millions on the fence and if so what are they waiting for?


----------



## Rule556 (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> You need three things:
> 
> Performance levels and features in RF that are not available in EF
> RF lenses that EF will never or can never offer
> ...



I agree, however, I think the time frame will be more like five years given the contraction of the ILC market.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Canon is too big and has too much money in longer term investments/inventory, etc. to rationalize everything in a rapid manner. Far more likely they will:
> 
> Phase 1 (in progress): Publicly state that they will no longer make new EF lenses, and not publicly slow down some SLR refreshes or just cancel specific lower-runner SLR refresh projects
> Phase 2 (3-5 years maybe): Throttle down EF production or make final large EF orders, shut down those lines, and sell to depletion; we start to see bread butter Rebels and XXD bodies go mirrorless only
> ...


But would Canon users really dump EF lenses for Nikon when they are going through the same process, only slower? So if they get 1 or 2 more years of DSLR use, is it worth switching? I'm not sure the alternatives are that enticing.

In any case I hope that when the R5 is announced, Canon will provide clues as to their road map.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Hmm I think this argument went off the original track
> Originally it was about downsampling that increases DR but loses resolution. My points were, IIRC,
> 1. Using noise reduction on 7D, you can't really catch up to 5DIV sensor or A7RIV sensor in terms of DR.


True, but first of all, it receives less photons _per sensor_ (at least when the number of photons is limited by the total well depth of the whole sensor area).



Quarkcharmed said:


> 2. After normalisation/downsampling, the resulting absolute DR value is meaningless, especially when it goes above 14 stops in 14-bit sensors. The value can only be used for comparison between the sensors.


Well, it appears to me that you lack the specialized knowledge to understand the complexity of the topic, and that's exactly why that "resulting absolute DR value" is meaningless to you. In the format of this forum, I don't expect me (or anyone else) to be able to tell you enough of the background that I feel is missing in this case (and it's OK, not everyone has a college degree - or equivalent experience - in exactly this topic), but I hope it will suffice to say that for me, it's not a "14-bit" sensor, but a "840-megabit" sensor.

Although, I might also need to add that the the term "DR" is so overused and may mean so many different things that it's rarely meaningful at all when used by a layman.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Disagree. Because it's not the quantum leap forward that film --> digital was,


It can be, but for that, effing Canon needs at least to add (and publish) effing "power on" command to its effing BLE camera control protocol.

What killed film was not image quality and not body lineup, but workflow. Mirrorless has a similar potential for workflow improvements, but it's currently mostly unusable because the manufacturers don't understand what they miss.


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## peters (Feb 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yes I'd like more DR but current 5DIV performance is ok. If Canon increases the resolution and keeps the DR at the same level, it'll be satisfactory.


Same here.
I must say, I NEVER had a problem with DR on my 5D IV. I bought it shortly after release and used it professional ever since. Its pictures are just great. I never god into a situation where I said "oh damn, I cant use this picture, I wish I had more DR". And I also shoot quite some weddings... 

The story that Canon is so incredible far away in DR compared to Sony is just a technical Internet topic. It may be true on paper but its just no matter for 99% of the working photographers. And I do own a Sony A7R IV which I mainly use for travel for some month now. Its DR is better, but its not a gamechanging thing. The A7s small and blurry EVF and Display, the bad ergonomics and the not realy beautiful colors are just as important on the negative side, as the DR is on the positive side.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

AlanF said:


> When I sold mine in Sept 2017, the going price for excellent used in the UK was £4,200-£4,500. Art Morris had posted then on his site, where people do buy and sell used lenses, that the price of the 300/2.8 II had collapsed
> 
> The price on the top two UK sites for used gear is now £3,100 to £3,500 for really good ones ($4000-4500). There was greater availability before Christmas.
> https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/used-equi...-fit-lenses/canon-ef-300mm-f-2-8-l-is-ii-usm/
> ...



I wasn't doubting you, just surprised that they were going for that much cheaper than what I see listed in the used dept. at places like B&H and Adorama as well as reputable resellers like KEH and lensauthority. 

I guess there is a difference, though, between what they're paying for them and what they are reselling them for. I don't do eBay for anything over about $100, buy or sell.Too many scammers here. An "excellent plus" listing on ebay might be "excellent" at KEH or a"9" at B&H, or it might be a "fair" or "7". You never know, because too many sellers tend to overrate them on eBay.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

Dragon said:


> My bad. My finger stutter on keyboard and I missed an I.



So you meant to type:

And using a slow SD card slows down a 5DIII/5DIII/5DS/5DIV. Nothing new there. Not everybody needs the speed at all, and most don't need it all the time. SD cards are WAY cheaper, even the UHSII variety.

Instead of:

And using a slow SD card slows down a 5DII/5DIII/5DS/5DIV. Nothing new there. Not everybody needs the speed at all, and most don't need it all the time. SD cards are WAY cheaper, even the UHSII variety?

Um Hmm...


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## dtaylor (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> 1. Using noise reduction on 7D, you can't really catch up to 5DIV sensor or A7RIV sensor in terms of DR.



For the record, no one claimed this. The 7D comes up because when people complain about DR on a 5D4 I like to show what can be done with a "bad" Canon sensor, to put the issue into perspective.



> 2. After normalisation/downsampling, the resulting absolute DR value is meaningless, especially when it goes above 14 stops in 14-bit sensors.



It's the one that has the most meaning because that's how human beings view photos.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Correct. And that is why R to EF adapter is so important for the roadmap. As per my previous post, I expect Canon to continue production of EF lenses until there is broad market penetration of R cameras and then they will stop production of the duplicate EF lenses, eg 70-200 f2.8.
> 
> As per Canon Rumors a further 8 R lenses are expected this year. The timing of this phase out is really dependent on the success of the new pro level R cameras.



10 + 8 = 18 RF lenses by the end of 2020

80+ lenses = Current EF lens lineup (not counting discontinued lenses) in 2020

They've still got a LONG way to go to reach the point where they've got a "duplicate" in RF mount for every currently available EF lens. Your initial post above sounded like you think "... having two separate lens lineups for essentially the same camera (one being mirrorless, the other DSLR) makes no economic sense _(today)_." Not several years from now.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Not in the sense of image quality or convenience (I used to have a dark room, now I have Lightroom!), but the integration between video and stills.
> 
> And this is a key consideration for the manufacturers who have to grab as much market share as possible in a rapidly shrinking market. They literally have a choice to make.
> 
> ...



How many people use the eye level viewfinder to shoot video with a MILC?

How is shooting video with a MILC revolutionary compared to shooting video with current DSLR in LV? Almost everyone is using external monitors with both. or putting a loupe over the LCD screen. I just don't see the jump between a DSLR and a MILC with the same video specs.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 2, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Well, it appears to me that you lack the specialized knowledge to understand the complexity of the topic, and that's exactly why that "resulting absolute DR value" is meaningless to you.



I understand how it works. Nevertheless, the _absolute_ value is meaningless because it's based on arbitrary normalising. You scale down more and get a better DR, don't scale and get it worse. photostophotos has totally different DR figures albeit _relative_ comparison still makes sense.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 2, 2020)

peters said:


> I never god into a situation where I said "oh damn, I cant use this picture, I wish I had more DR"



I had such situations multiple times when shooting landscapes. In such cases I'd use HDR/exposure blending. But I'm ok with that. More disturbing thing is the banding which appears in the shadows in long exposures at ISOs 400-1600 (and even detectable at ISO 100). Presumably it's thermal noise. It almost disappears when raising ISO to 3200, but that ISO is very hard to deal with (talking about the asto/nightscapes).

I've also shot action and concerts and 5DIV performs very well, although frequently front-focuses in the low light, I have a number of very good otherwise but out-of-focus shots because of this.


----------



## Marximusprime (Feb 2, 2020)

In other news, if this R5 has good tracking and true 12 FPS (full AF, etc.), along with good high ISO performance, I'd be fine with selling my 7D II and buying the new one. 17 MP cropped is fine. The 7D is the last DSLR I have; I have three other bodies and they're all mirrorless. I've only held onto the 7D for wildlife.


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## PureClassA (Feb 2, 2020)

For what it's worth, those who feel 45MP just is NOT enough, Keith over at Northlight is hearing some things:

"Jan 30th We’re told (thanks) that there will be an ‘s’ version of the R5 at ‘over 100MP’ but it’s not appearing until 2021.
_This far out, I’d have to give this a relatively low rating – Canon wants 5D4 and 5Ds/R users to buy an R5"









EOS RS or R5s - mirrorless 5Ds


Rumours for Canon EOS RS or R5s a mirrorless version of the 5Ds series cameras. High megapixel mirrorless - Replacement for the 5Ds and 5Ds R




www.northlight-images.co.uk




_


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## Kit. (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I understand how it works. Nevertheless, the _absolute_ value is meaningless because it's based on arbitrary normalising. You scale down more and get a better DR, don't scale and get it worse. photostophotos has totally different DR figures albeit _relative_ comparison still makes sense.


Dynamic range is a characteristic of a transmission system passing (some types of) signals. A signal is not just a sampled result of some measurement, but a message encoded in the measured value and containing information that is interesting to us. For the same transmission channel on the physical layer, different kinds of signals of our interest correspond to different values of DR.

No encoded message = no DR.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 2, 2020)

AEWest said:


> But would Canon users really dump EF lenses for Nikon when they are going through the same process, only slower? So if they get 1 or 2 more years of DSLR use, is it worth switching? I'm not sure the alternatives are that enticing.
> 
> In any case I hope that when the R5 is announced, Canon will provide clues as to their road map.



No. Pros embedded deeply in the Canon system will just sit on their latest bodies for as long as they can or buy an EOS R or R5. The EF library of glass will ALWAYS be supported long after they cease production of them because it's too easy to make mount adapters for this. The last mount change was from F to EF. The "E" meaning "Electronic". THAT was a revolution. And in so doing, it wasn't practical to maintain F libraries at length. Autofocus was and electronic aperture control was now a thing. Later came stuff like IS.

The change from EF to RF frankly is a minor adjustment so far as glass goes. There's nothing revolutionary here. AF, IS, Electronic control of things... all the same. Yeah we get a new fancy control ring ON the lenses, but honestly, who cares? That's not a HUGE revolutionary change. 

Ergo, the viability of EF glass can in theory last as long as the RF mount can provided you have a functional adapter. 

Canon users aren't going anywhere. Remember, the Body pros use is frankly the most replaceable element of their craft. Glass has far more longevity as do other accessories. They will buy RF cameras as soon as they feel they can use them to replace their existing cameras, and they will maintain their existing glass libraries until they feel the need or desire to upgrade.

This is will be a slow process for Canon. Same for Nikon. Sony and Fuji and the other guys did not ever have huge followings of pros and obviously they still dont compared to Canon. So they had an advantage to enter a new market with frankly ZERO risk compared to the established Patriarchs


----------



## AEWest (Feb 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> 10 + 8 = 18 RF lenses by the end of 2020
> 
> 80+ lenses = Current EF lens lineup (not counting discontinued lenses) in 2020
> 
> They've still got a LONG way to go to reach the point where they've got a "duplicate" in RF mount for every currently available EF lens. Your initial post above sounded like you think "... having two separate lens lineups for essentially the same camera (one being mirrorless, the other DSLR) makes no economic sense _(today)_." Not several years from now.



I have said that having two different camera lines and two different lens lines makes no sense. 

The R lenses that are out now and coming out this year will comprise the most popular focal lengths of EF lenses, so while there may not be 80 R Lenses, it will cover probably 75% of EF focal length models purchased with the exception of long glass. There also wont be T&S lenses in R mount for some time.

Once there is a decent market penetration of R cameras, they will cease making the duplicate EF lenses. For example there will never be a compact 70-200 2.8 in the EF mount.

Under the other poster's scenario of 10 year switch over, you would have to make these duplicate lenses for a long time. That doesn't make economic sense.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> lol, I'm losing the track in this discussion too.
> Yes I'd like more DR but current 5DIV performance is ok. If Canon increases the resolution and keeps the DR at the same level, it'll be satisfactory. However I'm struggling with banding sometimes and would also like to see improvements in this area too.


I just want Canon to keep the DPRAW feature of 5DIV in R5. Thats an extra stop of DR in extreme highlights as a hidden bonus. Otherwise, 5DIV sensor is just fine. All I need in R5 is the 28-70/2.0 compatibility.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 2, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> No. Pros embedded deeply in the Canon system will just sit on their latest bodies for as long as they can or buy an EOS R or R5. The EF library of glass will ALWAYS be supported long after they cease production of them because it's too easy to make mount adapters for this. The last mount change was from F to EF. The "E" meaning "Electronic". THAT was a revolution. And in so doing, it wasn't practical to maintain F libraries at length. Autofocus was and electronic aperture control was now a thing. Later came stuff like IS.
> 
> The change from EF to RF frankly is a minor adjustment so far as glass goes. There's nothing revolutionary here. AF, IS, Electronic control of things... all the same. Yeah we get a new fancy control ring ON the lenses, but honestly, who cares? That's not a HUGE revolutionary change.
> 
> ...


Actually I disagree. The R glass is quite different than EF mount due to the much closer flange distance. I am no optical engineer but I understand that new lens designs that cannot be done on EF mount will be available for R mount.


----------



## analoggrotto (Feb 2, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I just want Canon to keep the DPRAW feature of 5DIV in R5. Thats an extra stop of DR in extreme highlights as a hidden bonus. Otherwise, 5DIV sensor is just fine. All I need in R5 is the 28-70/2.0 compatibility.


the 5D4 sensor is a breath of fresh air compared to the 5D3 which fell apart in low light action


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 2, 2020)

Hi, I've mixed replies to several your messages together to avoid spamming.



dtaylor said:


> If that was all it did it would still alter SNR. But that's not an accurate summary of modern NR algorithms. And it's completely wrong for color NR, color noise being arguably the most intrusive component.



I'm not saying noise reduction shouldn't be used because of the loss of detail, I'm just saying it shouldn't be used in sensor performance comparison.



dtaylor said:


> In the real world it plays out this way: the D850 owner does a hard shadow push and prints. The 5D4 owner does a hard shadow push, maybe bumps LNR/CNR a bit, and prints.



But the D850 owner can also bump LNR/CNR and print certain range of shadows where 5DIV produces a mess even after the NR. Sometimes I struggle with unrecoverable shadows on 5DIV, I can lift them to a certain level but beyond that level they become a mess. I could've lifted them a bit more on D850. It doesn't happen too often, but why shouldn't I desire more from a next-gen very expensive camera? It was happening on 70D all the time and 5DIV was a significant leap for me. I want improvements from R5 too.



dtaylor said:


> Altering the view size simply trades spatial information for SNR. And it doesn't have to be through 'digital manipulation.' Make a print where the shadow noise seems unacceptable to you nose-on-print. Now view it from 10 ft away.



Yes. As I've said before, the point is, this is an arbitrary normalisation, that's why absolute values from DxO or PTP are meaningless. Also those figures are not very usable in the field. In practice I'm more interested in the per-pixel DR, not the 'photographic' DR.



dtaylor said:


> Of course you do. The sensor captured that data. Given the resolution of today's sensors if anything one could argue that DxO's print scores are more relevant than their screen scores...or Photons to Photos graphs...because that's how people will view the image.



Who on earth will be viewing my images like that? It's a very specific normalisation. PTP also use a similar normalisation as if the image was printed and viewed at a certain distance. But they have different absolute values. Therefore, those absolute DR values are meaningless in practice; if DxO shows a 15 stop DR for my 14-bit camera, I can't shoot real scenes with 15 stops DR, because at the same time PTP says my sensor's DR is only 13 stops.
But again, they can be used for comparison between the sensors.



dtaylor said:


> One could argue that the 'absolute DR measurement' of a single photoreceptor is meaningless when evaluating a sensor with many millions of receptors.



A single pixel DR in my opinion is more usable in the field. It affects how you interpret your histogram and how the image will look like when viewed 1:1. It also affects how much you'll need to downsample in order to get satisfactory shadows. 



dtaylor said:


> Not arguing that at all. But the fact that it can work...sometimes...tells us that the 1ev difference is not due to Canon's ADC design. It's due to the dual pixel arrangement.



I totally agree, maybe it's not the only reason, but the dual pixel design definitely contributes to the DR decrease. I'm just not taking it as an excuse from Canon, I don't care as a consumer why they lag behind, I want them to improve. From the graphs I quoted in one of the messages above, they still have some significant read noise, while Sony has it literally at 1 electron. That's probably a room for improvement for Canon despite the dual pixel arrangement.



dtaylor said:


> Not a practical problem since today's sensors are 14-bit devices and we have both 16-bit and 32-bit processing on the desktop.



You still can't capture more than 14 stops with a 14-bit sensor and view 1:1. You can convert it to 16 or 32 bits but you don't gain any additional information, you only reduce quantisation errors in the further processing. However almost any processing after that will at a cost of information loss, almost any slider movement in Lightroom means information loss (in the final image! - Lightroom changes are additive and kinda applied on top of each other every time you change anything, so the original image is kept intact).
Downsampling to gain DR is also a lossy change, we obviously sacrifice the resolution.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 2, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Actually I disagree. The R glass is quite different than EF mount due to the much closer flange distance. I am no optical engineer but I understand that new lens designs that cannot be done on EF mount will be available for R mount.



Yes they can achieve focal lengths/aperture combos not available before. It's still an electronic controlled autofocusing IS capable lens. Until they can make RF glass take 3D hologram pictures, it's still a minor evolution and EF glass is now and will be for a while, still relevant. They may not make many news ones, but they will all still work exceptionally well and seamlessly on RF bodies with adapters


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 2, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Dynamic range is a characteristic of a transmission system passing (some types of) signals. A signal is not just a sampled result of some measurement, but a message encoded in the measured value and containing information that is interesting to us. For the same transmission channel on the physical layer, different kinds of signals of our interest correspond to different values of DR.



That's exactly why absolute DxO or PTP values are meaningless - they're based on arbitrary choices for normalisation. If the measurement depends on one's arbitrary interest and definition of the DR, you can't do it scientifically. You get drastically different results on DxO and PTP (up to two stops I believe). *The DR of your sensor reduces as you come closer to the print.* There's something intrinsically wrong about it.
Per-pixel DR however is invariant.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I'm not saying noise reduction shouldn't be used because of the loss of detail, I'm just saying it shouldn't be used in sensor performance comparison.



No one is debating measured sensor performance, they're debating the practical meaning and relevance of those numbers.



> But the D850 owner can also bump LNR/CNR and print certain range of shadows where 5DIV produces a mess even after the NR.



That's just not true between these two cameras. The gap is not that wide. If you're at the end of a 5D4 shadow push the D850 is not going to give you a perfectly clean, award winning print with vast increases in shadow detail. On either camera you're at the point where you should be blending two or more exposures if you care about shadow IQ. At the point the 5D4 is falling apart the D850 is starting to fall apart, quality wise.



> As I've said before, the point is, this is an arbitrary normalisation,



Opening your eyes and looking at a photograph is an "arbitrary normalization." At least the arbitrary choice in DxO's print score is closer to your arbitrary choice when viewing photographs than measuring a single pixel would be.



> Who on earth will be viewing my images like that?



You just asked "who on Earth will be viewing my images at anything less than 1:1 magnification?" And unless you've cornered a very unique niche in the art market, the answer would be "everyone."



> I totally agree, maybe it's not the only reason, but the dual pixel design definitely contributes to the DR decrease. I'm just not taking it as an excuse from Canon, I don't care as a consumer why they lag behind, I want them to improve.



Where is Neuro when you need him? Canon's behavior and marketshare suggests that their consumer base doesn't care at all about 5D4 vs D850 DR. It's a point of obsession on photography forums for some reason, but that seems to be all.

If Canon were still stuck at the 5D3/6D2 level then it might start to impact their sales.



> You still can't capture more than 14 stops with a 14-bit sensor and view 1:1.



No one but the original photographer views 1:1, and that's only when editing. For a 2D image DR is relative to view size. There's no way around that. Our sensors have millions of pixels and you literally cannot give an accurate measurement *for the sensor* without first stating the view size. And exchanging spatial sampling for SNR is not only something you can do, it is something *that will happen* for every viewer to a greater or lesser degree based on monitor/print size and viewing distance.


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## Ozarker (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Hi, I've mixed replies to several your messages together to avoid spamming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dtaylor (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's exactly why absolute DxO or PTP values are meaningless - they're based on arbitrary choices for normalisation. If the measurement depends on one's arbitrary interest and definition of the DR, you can't do it scientifically.



Choosing a view size is not an arbitrary definition of DR. It's an arbitrary but necessary input into the formula for DR.



> *The DR of your sensor reduces as you come closer to the print.* There's something intrinsically wrong about it.



There's something intrinsically wrong about GPS satellite clocks ticking at a different rate than clocks on Earth. But tick away they do. Think of DR as the theory of relativity for photography, only in this case the DR depends on the observer's distance from the image. It probably depends on their speed to. An observer passing your print at 100mph is unlikely to notice as much shadow noise as one passing it at 1" per hour.

It could be worse. If it was like quantum physics then nobody could say if your Canon had more or less DR than a Nikon until you photographed a cat in a box.


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## slclick (Feb 2, 2020)

Not sure if you've seen this trend as well but I think 3rd party EF lens mfg.s are starting to discount more so than in the past. Gotta get on the RF bandwagon.


----------



## richperson (Feb 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I'd really be surprised if an RF 400mm f/2.8 L IS is introduced before an RF 300mm f/2.8 L IS and RF 500mm f/4 L IS.
> 
> The EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS II and EF 600mm f/4 L IS II both got total redesigns to "III" versions in 2018.
> 
> The EF 300mm f/2.8 L IS II and EF 500mm f/4 L IS II are 2011 designs. They'll be the first RF great whites.



I get your logic, but the 400mm f/2.8 is the biggest money lens. I still bet that is the first.


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## -pekr- (Feb 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> There's not one stop more DR to be found between current technology and theoretically perfect.



Explain R6 then. Who on earth, owning 6D or 6DII, would go with the R6 (if Canon will try to claim it is kind of 6DIII) just because Canon thought they might reuse 1DX III sensor, while going down from 26 to 20 mpx? I can imagine a special low light machine as a complement to R5, even going down to 14-18mpx, but it would have to be in a 2-3 stops balpark. If new R6 sensor is not much better than Rp or R, I can see a hard time for ppl going for R6, unless it is extremly cheap or serves some other yet unknown purposes ....


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## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I have said that having two different camera lines and two different lens lines makes no sense.
> 
> The R lenses that are out now and coming out this year will comprise the most popular focal lengths of EF lenses, so while there may not be 80 R Lenses, it will cover probably 75% of EF focal length models purchased with the exception of long glass. There also wont be T&S lenses in R mount for some time.
> 
> ...



That other 25% is still worth millions of dollars in sales. EF won't go away until those millions are not there anymore. I doubt it will be ten years (though I think many EF lenses will still receive service/support in 2030), but it will be far more than a year or two. It will be at least five years before Canon no longer sells EF lenses, probably longer, and they'll service whatever they sell for around seven additional years.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

richperson said:


> I get your logic, but the 400mm f/2.8 is the biggest money lens. I still bet that is the first.



I'd be very surprised if Canon sells significantly more EF 400mm f/2.8 lenses than EF 300mm f/2.8 lenses. The 400mm lenses may be more popular with birders, but around sports shooters one tends to see more 300/2.8 lenses than 400/2.8, though both are common enough.


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## SecureGSM (Feb 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I'd be very surprised if Canon sells significantly more EF 400mm f/2.8 lenses than EF 300mm f/2.8 lenses. The 400mm lenses may be more popular with birders, but around sports shooters one tends to see more 300/2.8 lenses than 400/2.8, though both are common enough.


indoors 400 is a bit too long, outdoors 300 is a bit too short.


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## padam (Feb 2, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Explain R6 then. Who on earth, owning 6D or 6DII, would go with the R6 (if Canon will try to claim it is kind of 6DIII) just because Canon thought they might reuse 1DX III sensor, while going down from 26 to 20 mpx? I can imagine a special low light machine as a complement to R5, even going down to 14-18mpx, but it would have to be in a 2-3 stops balpark. If new R6 sensor is not much better than Rp or R, I can see a hard time for ppl going for R6, unless it is extremly cheap or serves some other yet unknown purposes ....


The A7S was the most successful model from the original A7 series (A7SII also became popular until the A7III has more or less taken its place for now).
Canon has more or less left this segment with the 5D Mark III.
Now finally Canon is back with a more advanced equivalent model, that will compete against the A7SIII and S1H (and later on Nikon might join in as well). These higher-end video-focused stills cameras will continue occupy a significant portion of the video market as it is moving towards bigger sensors. The gap between this and the C500 Mark II is still huge.

And it will have a flip-screen, EVF, IBIS, smaller size and weight, a much more flexible RF-mount (with the option of an V-ND EF adapter), all of which are missing from the 1DX Mark III in favour of ultimate speed and durability. Since that one costs 6500$ this still has to be over 4000$ (depends on which codec options they are going to keep) which is pretty expensive, but if we consider what was in the 1DC and 1DX Mark II, it is a significant step forward.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Actually I disagree. The R glass is quite different than EF mount due to the much closer flange distance. I am no optical engineer but I understand that new lens designs that cannot be done on EF mount will be available for R mount.



The end of EF will not be determined by what RF lenses are not available in EF versions, it will be determined by what EF lenses are no longer not available in RF mount. (I know, I know. Double negative and all, but it's the most compact way to say it.)


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## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> indoors 400 is a bit too long, outdoors 300 is a bit too short.



Not really. At venues where there are armys of photographers who use 300/2.8 or 400/2.8 lenses, there's more than enough light to use a 1.4X with a 300. It's a LOT lighter, a LOT cheaper, more flexible, and works almost as well for the few longest distance shots to carry a 300/2.8 + 1.4X as it does to carry a 400/2.8. In the U.S., outdoors we're talking primarily baseball and american football. The pace of both of those and the way one shoots them give plenty of time to decide whether one wants 300mm or 420mm on the "long" body. The other bodies have 70-200s and/or 16-35s hanging on them. A 400 does make more sense for baseball, where 400 + 1.4X can be useful at times. But college baseball gets very little coverage, and there are only 30 MLB teams, compared to 32 NFL and 254 Division 1 (129 FBS + 125 FCS) football teams.

Not many I know or have seen shoot in indoor gyms with 300s for most sports. They're too long too, unless one is shooting from the rafters in a very large arena (or from the upper seats in the end of a mid-size gym like with volleyball). Maybe gymnastics, but there are a LOT more shooters on the baselines for basketball and on the sidelines and end lines for football, even with mid-level colleges, than the number shooting even major college gymnastics and volleyball. I don't know what hockey shooters use. But again, there aren't near as many hockey shooters in the U.S. as there are shooters covering football, basketball, and baseball.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Explain R6 then. Who on earth, owning 6D or 6DII, would go with the R6 (if Canon will try to claim it is kind of 6DIII) just because Canon thought they might reuse 1DX III sensor, while going down from 26 to 20 mpx? I can imagine a special low light machine as a complement to R5, even going down to 14-18mpx, but it would have to be in a 2-3 stops balpark. If new R6 sensor is not much better than Rp or R, I can see a hard time for ppl going for R6, unless it is extremly cheap or serves some other yet unknown purposes ....



The 6D, 6D Mark II, and RP are not really current sensor technology. They haven't shown any real improvement over what has been available from Canon since 2012 when the 6D was introduced. Both the 5D Mark IV (and R) and the 1D X Mark II have much better low ISO DR than the 6D Mark II does. When normalized for size, so do the 80D and 90D.

We haven't yet seen how the 1D X Mark III and R6 sensor performs. I'm guessing the answer to your question once we've seen those sensors is, "Anyone who wants to update to current sensor technology."


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## navastronia (Feb 2, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Explain R6 then. Who on earth, owning 6D or 6DII, would go with the R6 (if Canon will try to claim it is kind of 6DIII) just because Canon thought they might reuse 1DX III sensor, while going down from 26 to 20 mpx? I can imagine a special low light machine as a complement to R5, even going down to 14-18mpx, but it would have to be in a 2-3 stops balpark. If new R6 sensor is not much better than Rp or R, I can see a hard time for ppl going for R6, unless it is extremly cheap or serves some other yet unknown purposes ....



I really feel like we don't have enough to go on to determine the so-called R6's purpose, and I've said it numerous times in these threads. Is it a 6D successor? Is it a video-centric body? Is it an ultra-low-end body? We simply don't know at this time, though by the laws of probability, surely one (or several of us) have guessed right by now, somewhere over the last hundred pages


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## Joules (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> However I'm struggling with banding sometimes and would also like to see improvements in this area too.





Quarkcharmed said:


> But I'm ok with that. More disturbing thing is the banding which appears in the shadows in long exposures at ISOs 400-1600 (and even detectable at ISO 100). Presumably it's thermal noise. It almost disappears when raising ISO to 3200, but that ISO is very hard to deal with (talking about the asto/nightscapes).


I have observed this banding in my 80D multiple times already, although only in extreme shadow pishs necessary because I screwed up the exposure or tried to avoid blending multiple ones.

Anyway, I think this is an issue of the past. The EOS R already got a firmware update a while back that addressed the banding, which it inherited from the 5D IV. Unfortunately, I think no DSLR will now get that update. But the newer ones seem superior anyway. Despite searching, I have not found any reports in banding in the M6 II or 90D yet, and the 1DX III sensor will surely improve it even further.


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## hne (Feb 2, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Yes they can achieve focal lengths/aperture combos not available before. It's still an electronic controlled autofocusing IS capable lens. *Until they can make RF glass take 3D hologram pictures*, it's still a minor evolution and EF glass is now and will be for a while, still relevant. They may not make many news ones, but they will all still work exceptionally well and seamlessly on RF bodies with adapters



Taking 3D hologram pictures is not a limitation of the lens but the sensor. All it takes is a plenoptic filter on the sensor, very much like the one already used for dual-pixel autofocus but covering many more subpixels.
Described in sufficient detail in this thesis, which was also the basis for the original Lytro camera: https://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/18735 

I'm not buying an R5 even if it has the tilty-flippy screen that was the only thing not filled on my 5DmkIV wish list. Since my 5DmkIV is such a performance monster for my purposes anyway. However, if the R5mkII were to have a "dual pixel" autofocus based on micro lens arrays covering >256 subpixels and each of those could be read out individually from the raw file... then I could construct true 3D images and that would indeed be a reason to buy a new camera! All focus misses could be adjusted in post, just like DPRAW but it would actually have a chance to work properly. All it takes is a sensor with about 1Gpx...


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## AlanF (Feb 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I wasn't doubting you, just surprised that they were going for that much cheaper than what I see listed in the used dept. at places like B&H and Adorama as well as reputable resellers like KEH and lensauthority.
> 
> I guess there is a difference, though, between what they're paying for them and what they are reselling them for. I don't do eBay for anything over about $100, buy or sell.Too many scammers here. An "excellent plus" listing on ebay might be "excellent" at KEH or a"9" at B&H, or it might be a "fair" or "7". You never know, because too many sellers tend to overrate them on eBay.


Perhaps you have had bad experiences eBay, as I am sure some have, but I have bought and sold a lot of high value items on it and so far have been unscathed. WEX has a "manager's special" today of a grade 9 used 300/2.8 II for £3,099 ($3,900). I am afraid that us owners of big whites have been royally done over by Canon. Long gone are the days when buying glass was an "investment". Maybe it's a good time to buy used and a sensible one to keep on with our old EF glass to use with adapters.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Perhaps you have had bad experiences eBay, as I am sure some have, but I have bought and sold a lot of high value items on it and so far have been unscathed. WEX has a "manager's special" today of a grade 9 used 300/2.8 II for £3,099 ($3,900). I am afraid that us owners of big whites have been royally done over by Canon. Long gone are the days when buying glass was an "investment". Maybe it's a good time to buy used and a sensible one to keep on with our old EF glass to use with adapters.



I've never considered cameras or lenses "investments." They've always been expenses to me. Same thing with vehicles and everything else the marketers try to sell to us by fooling us into thinking it's an "investment" rather than an "expense." If you depreciate it on your taxes, it's not an investment.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 2, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Choosing a view size is not an arbitrary definition of DR. It's an arbitrary but necessary input into the formula for DR.



The classic DR is defined as "ratio between the maximum output signal level and the noise floor at minimum signal amplification". There's no viewing distance or print size involved.
What they have on DxOMark and PTP is a special photographic DR that's good for comparison between sensors, but again and again its absolute value is unusable.


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## Joules (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> What they have on DxOMark and PTP is a special photographic DR that's good for comparison between sensors, but again and again its absolute value is unusable.


Since you mention unusable so often, I'm curious what you even want to use the number for. I don't think I've read that here, but with how many posts this thread has, I skipped a good few of them.


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## Kit. (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's exactly why absolute DxO or PTP values are meaningless - they're based on arbitrary choices for normalisation. If the measurement depends on one's arbitrary interest and definition of the DR, you can't do it scientifically.


There is no other definition of DR. DR always describes a signal, and the choice which signal is of interest to you is always "arbitrary". When you know _which_ signal is of interest to you, you can do it scientifically.



Quarkcharmed said:


> You get drastically different results on DxO and PTP (up to two stops I believe). *The DR of your sensor reduces as you come closer to the print.* There's something intrinsically wrong about it.


That's because "the DR of your sensor" is not even a thing. There are no DRs of "sensors". There are DRs of signals transmitted through channels. And your sensor, being a part of your transmission channel, affects the DRs of different signals differently.

"As you come closer to print", you just refine the idea what signal you are actually interested in.



Quarkcharmed said:


> Per-pixel DR however is invariant.


It's not invariant (it's still different for different signals). It's just irrelevant, at least when we are talking about photography.

Imagine two different sensors with the same resolution and the same "per-pixel DR" (for the number of incoming photons(*) as the signal you are interested in). Both sensors have their DR mostly limited by read noise. But in one sensor the read noise is uncorrelated between _different_ pixels, in the other it results in random banding. Do you really have no preference which one to choose?

*) let's abstract from photons' own quantization noise, as it is the same for both sensors.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Not really. At venues where there are armys of photographers who use 300/2.8 or 400/2.8 lenses, there's more than enough light to use a 1.4X with a 300. It's a LOT lighter, a LOT cheaper, more flexible, and works almost as well for the few longest distance shots to carry a 300/2.8 + 1.4X as it does to carry a 400/2.8. In the U.S., outdoors we're talking primarily baseball and american football. The pace of both of those and the way one shoots them give plenty of time to decide whether one wants 300mm or 420mm on the "long" body. The other bodies have 70-200s and/or 16-35s hanging on them. A 400 does make more sense for baseball, where 400 + 1.4X can be useful at times. But college baseball gets very little coverage, and there are only 30 MLB teams, compared to 32 NFL and 254 Division 1 (129 FBS + 125 FCS) football teams.
> 
> Not many I know or have seen shoot in indoor gyms with 300s for most sports. They're too long too, unless one is shooting from the rafters in a very large arena (or from the upper seats in the end of a mid-size gym like with volleyball). Maybe gymnastics, but there are a LOT more shooters on the baselines for basketball and on the sidelines and end lines for football, even with mid-level colleges, than the number shooting even major college gymnastics and volleyball. I don't know what hockey shooters use. But again, there aren't near as many hockey shooters in the U.S. as there are shooters covering football, basketball, and baseball.


"... Not many I know or have seen shoot in indoor gyms with 300s for most sports...."

Yes, that is why I shot with 120-300 / 2.8 indoors


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## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> "... Not many I know or have seen shoot in indoor gyms with 300s for most sports...."
> 
> Yes, that is why I shot with 120-300 / 2.8 indoors



120-300mm is a lot different than 300mm prime. We were talking about EF 300mm f/2.8 or EF 400mm f/2.8.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 2, 2020)

Joules said:


> Since you mention unusable so often, I'm curious what you even want to use the number for. I don't think I've read that here, but with how many posts this thread has, I skipped a good few of them.


In DxO or PTP, the DR numbers are good for comparison between the cameras measured with the same method. 
But DxO and PTP give different DR values for the same cameras, so the numbers are useless outside the respective database (from DxO or PTP).

How else would you use say a DR value of 13 stops from DxO? Your target print size changes or viewing distance changes and the number becomes irrelevant.

So for example, Sony's alleged 15-stop DR of A7RIV is also a useless gimmick, as it's meant to be the photographic DR similar to DxO, when 61Mp is downsampled to 8Mp. Perhaps they could downsample to 1Mp and get 16 stops, or not downsample and get some 13 stops.

A usable value is the per-pixel DR that tells me the max contrast in a real scene and how it's reflected in the resulting RAW image when viewed 1:1.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 2, 2020)

Kit. said:


> There is no other definition of DR. DR always describes a signal, and the choice which signal is of interest to you is always "arbitrary". When you know _which_ signal is of interest to you, you can do it scientifically.


Per-pixel DR of CMOS sensors is well defined. Only it's hard to use for comparison between sensors with different resolution and crop factor. But it basically shows shadow recoverability when viewed 1:1.



Kit. said:


> It's not invariant



It doesn't depend on the print size and viewing distance.



Kit. said:


> Imagine two different sensors with the same resolution and the same "per-pixel DR" (for the number of incoming photons(*) as the signal you are interested in). Both sensors have their DR mostly limited by read noise. But in one sensor the read noise is uncorrelated between _different_ pixels, in the other it results in random banding. Do you really have no preference which one to choose?



But I think DxO and PTP don't take banding into account either.

I try to make my images look good at 1:1 so I do care about the per-pixel DR. Some of them I only put on Instagram, some I print small, some print large, some use large sized (say one of them made it to a page of a tourist book - they cropped it but needed 3000 pixels on the longest side).

DPReview has good charts where you can view samples at 1:1, btw.


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## AlanF (Feb 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I've never considered cameras or lenses "investments." They've always been expenses to me. Same thing with vehicles and everything else the marketers try to sell to us by fooling us into thinking it's an "investment" rather than an "expense." If you depreciate it on your taxes, it's not an investment.


Very true. However, there was a time a few years back when inflation was higher and lenses were not updated frequently that price rises in new lenses meant that used lenses could be sold for their original purchase price or more. Nowadays, Canon reduces some prices with time. There were loads of posts here about “investing” in glass.


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## Kit. (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> A usable value is the per-pixel DR that tells me the max contrast in a real scene and how it's reflected in the resulting RAW image when viewed 1:1.


Except that it doesn't. What it reflects is the characteristics of image viewed _pixel by pixel_, with all spatial information about particular pixels lost.



Quarkcharmed said:


> Per-pixel DR of CMOS sensors is well defined.


Based on an arbitrary choice of a "signal" that has neither intrinsic nor practical meaning for a sensor with an AA filter (let alone Bayer mask).

Which reminds me of the streetlight effect.



Quarkcharmed said:


> But it basically shows shadow recoverability when viewed 1:1.


"Shadow recoverability" is an arbitrary subjective value. What is "recovered shadows" for one viewer is not for another.



Quarkcharmed said:


> It doesn't depend on the print size and viewing distance.


It doesn't depend on the actual end result? Cool... it still doesn't mean that it's invariant, though.



Quarkcharmed said:


> But I think DxO and PTP don't take banding into account either.


If they put different weights on different spatial frequencies of the noise, they do. Something that's impossible to do with "per-pixel DR".



Quarkcharmed said:


> I try to make my images look good at 1:1 so I do care about the per-pixel DR.


"Per-pixel DR" doesn't tell you how good your images look at 1:1, unless by "1:1" you mean "one pixel at a time".


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 2, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> That's just not true between these two cameras. The gap is not that wide.


It's 0.8 stops or so. That means I can push shadows on D850 0.8 stops farther. Sometimes it means the difference between usable and unusable image. It doesn't happen too often, but it happens.


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## BillB (Feb 2, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon users aren't going anywhere. Remember, the Body pros use is frankly the most replaceable element of their craft. Glass has far more longevity as do other accessories. They will buy RF cameras as soon as they feel they can use them to replace their existing cameras, and they will maintain their existing glass libraries until they feel the need or desire to upgrade


Fair enough. Photographers can and will use AF glass after they buy RF cameras, but what Canon is interested in is how many more EF lenses they will buy once they have RF cameras.


----------



## BillB (Feb 2, 2020)

slclick said:


> Not sure if you've seen this trend as well but I think 3rd party EF lens mfg.s are starting to discount more so than in the past. Gotta get on the RF bandwagon.


Not only that. As the market keeps shrinking, manufacturers are getting squeezed, likely some more than others.


----------



## BillB (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> The classic DR is defined as "ratio between the maximum output signal level and the noise floor at minimum signal amplification". There's no viewing distance or print size involved.
> What they have on DxOMark and PTP is a special photographic DR that's good for comparison between sensors, but again and again its absolute value is unusable.


True, but for some of us, the question is whether there is a discernible difference in print quality at relevant viewing distances.


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## AEWest (Feb 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That other 25% is still worth millions of dollars in sales. EF won't go away until those millions are not there anymore. I doubt it will be ten years (though I think many EF lenses will still receive service/support in 2030), but it will be far more than a year or two. It will be at least five years before Canon no longer sells EF lenses, probably longer, and they'll service whatever they sell for around seven additional years.


Canon will provide service and support for EF lenses, I have no doubt. But there will come a point when enough R cameraa have been sold that they will stop production of EF version of R lenses. It will make no sense to produce both.


----------



## slclick (Feb 2, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> indoors 400 is a bit too long, outdoors 300 is a bit too short.


Whoa! When I think indoors my mind goes to Basketball and typically you're at 35 under the rim, 50-85 baseline and MAYBE an occasional 135 across court for tight. Of course, indoors could be Kart racing at 400!


----------



## AEWest (Feb 2, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Perhaps you have had bad experiences eBay, as I am sure some have, but I have bought and sold a lot of high value items on it and so far have been unscathed. WEX has a "manager's special" today of a grade 9 used 300/2.8 II for £3,099 ($3,900). I am afraid that us owners of big whites have been royally done over by Canon. Long gone are the days when buying glass was an "investment". Maybe it's a good time to buy used and a sensible one to keep on with our old EF glass to use with adapters.



Unfortunately that is the market talking, not Canon. Over the past 5 years, ILC camera sales have been cut in half. That would tend to leave to an over supply in used lenses and thus falling prices.


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## brad-man (Feb 2, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Canon will provide service and support for EF lenses, I have no doubt. But there will come a point when enough R cameraa have been sold that they will stop production of EF version of R lenses. It will make no sense to produce both.


In economics, there is the concept of _Supply and Demand_. As long as customers are willing to pay for EF lenses, Canon will produce and sell them. Canon makes a profit from the sales of EF lenses. Canon's plan is not to force people into switching to RF. They are producing RF lenses that are superior to their EF counterparts so folks will _want_ to switch...


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## AlanF (Feb 2, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Unfortunately that is the market talking, not Canon. Over the past 5 years, ILC camera sales have been cut in half. That would tend to leave to an over supply in used lenses and thus falling prices.


That is true but it is has been exacerbated by Canon. For example, the 400mm and 600mm III coming out after a relatively short time after version IIs.


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## AEWest (Feb 2, 2020)

brad-man said:


> I wish you would stop these foolish contentions. For someone with a "backround in economics", you do not seem to have a grasp of Supply and Demand. As long as customers are willing to pay for EF lenses, Canon will produce and sell them. You _do_ understand that Canon makes a profit from the sales, don't you? Canon's plan is not to force people into switching to RF. They are producing RF lenses that are superior to their EF counterparts so folks will _want_ to switch...



Thank you. I do prefer civil discourse and applaud those posters who disagree with me in a respectful way (there are several!)

My thread is all about PREDICTIONS and laying out why I think DSLRs are fading out much more quickly than some others think. Everyone has their own opinion. No need to get worked up over that.

In terms of the your first point about sales of lenses, the poster that I responded to spoke about used lenses. Canon does not produce used lenses. Since there has been a substantial decrease in demand for ILCs Canon can only adjust production volumes of new lenses. They can't adjust the inventory of used lenses. Therefore there will be an oversupply in the used market and that is why the prices are coming down. It has nothing to do with Canon itself therefore Canon cannot be blamed for these price decreases.

In terms of your second point about Canon not forcing new mount (in this case RF) lenses onto photographers, unfortunately Canon did exactly that in 1987. My FD lenses at the time became bricks once EF camera mount was introduced, with no way of adapting them to the EOS cameras. EOS at the time was a four letter word to me!

Luckily this time there is a smooth transition as EF glass can be adapted quite nicely to R series cameras. But I believe that once critical mass has been achieved in terms of R series camera sales, Canon will quickly cut off production equivalent EF mount lenses to rationalize costs in much tougher market conditions than existed in 1987.


----------



## analoggrotto (Feb 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The 6D, 6D Mark II, and RP are not really current sensor technology. They haven't shown any real improvement over what has been available from Canon since 2012 when the 6D was introduced. Both the 5D Mark IV (and R) and the 1D X Mark II have much better low ISO DR than the 6D Mark II does. When normalized for size, so do the 80D and 90D.
> 
> We haven't yet seen how the 1D X Mark III and R6 sensor performs. I'm guessing the answer to your question once we've seen those sensors is, "Anyone who wants to update to current sensor technology."


20 MP with native ISO up to 500000+? Onboard HDR? Branding familarity with the Yamaha YZF-R6? That's all I can think of.


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## brad-man (Feb 2, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Thank you. I do prefer civil discourse and applaud those posters who disagree with me in a respectful way (there are several!)
> 
> My thread is all about PREDICTIONS and laying out why I think DSLRs are fading out much more quickly than some others think. Everyone has their own opinion. No need to get worked up over that.
> 
> ...


First point, your post that I responded to was _not_ about used lenses as can be clearly seen. Second, the change from FD to EF in 1987 is completely irrelevant to this discussion. My post stands. We will _politely_ agree to disagree...


----------



## jam05 (Feb 2, 2020)

Would be nice to know if the EOS R5 CFExpress card bus is CFExpress 1.0 or 2.0


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## slclick (Feb 2, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Would be nice to know if the EOS R5 CFExpress card bus is CFExpress 1.0 or 2.0


Sorry if I am not willing to sift though 67 pages...

Has it been CR3'd that it will be in fact SD/CFExpress? Asking for a friend.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 2, 2020)

brad-man said:


> First point, your post that I responded to was _not_ about used lenses as can be clearly seen. Second, the change from FD to EF in 1987 is completely irrelevant to this discussion. My post stands. We will _politely_ agree to disagree...



Much appreciated! 

What I think would really be a wise move by Canon would be to offer one week free trial periods for the new R cameras from authorized dealers.

There is significant hesitation by many photographers to buy EVF cameras since they may have only tried them in the store, or seen the early and frankly brutal EVFs of a few years ago.

I too tried the R model only in the store and frankly was not impressed. But others that I know who have Sony mirrorless cameras wouldn't go back to OVF. Definitely a disconnect.

I believe adoption of the R cameras would be much faster under such a program. And I would be happy to volunteer to buy one of these demo cameras at a huge discount!


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## UlricWolf (Feb 2, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Not too bright in dark environments, not too dim in bright environments, not laggy, not blurry when panning, doesn't slow down or get noisy in dark conditions, doesn't crush blacks, doesn't blowout whites, doesn't suck power like crazy.



its not too bright (and its oled, so blacks are black), not too dim as well. And lag is the best in industry, its so small that it doesnt make any problemas anymore. Not blurry at all. In dark conditions it is probably noisy, but it shows a lot brighter image then optical VF - so Yes, its a benefit. Dos suck power, because its a display. But in real life it just uses 2x more battery then dslr. But it has face detection, it has exposition simulation and many more benefits compared to OVF. I just think that You are searching for problems not solitions.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 2, 2020)

UlricWolf said:


> its not too bright



It was for me. Inside the store, it was WAY brighter than the store.



> (and its oled, so blacks are black)



But blacks were black where the image would contain detail.



> not too dim as well



Not bright enough in full sun.



> And lag is the best in industry,



If so, sad for the industry because it was obvious and horrible.



> its so small that it doesnt make any problemas anymore.



Yeah, it would, if you shoot fast-moving subjects and have to track them with tight framing.



> Not blurry at all.



So blurry that when my son just walked past me, it was too blurry to read the block letters on his shirt.



> In dark conditions it is probably noisy, but it shows a lot brighter image then optical VF



Which is an unmitigated disaster since it will ruin the dark-adaptation of your eyes.



> Dos suck power, because its a display. But in real life it just uses 2x more battery then dslr.



I've used the viewfinder for 6 hours and shot 2,250 shots and half an hour of video on my 7D Mark II, on 90% of one battery. I suspect the same thing here would use 6-10 batteries.



> But it has face detection



Which is useless.



> it has exposition simulation



Which doesn't work because it doesn't represent the raw data, just the JPEG.



> I just think that You are searching for problems not solitions.



Always searching for solutions, it's just that EVFs are a solution without a problem. They only have two advantages - shooting video and manual focus aids. I added one to my SLR for those rare instances when I'm doing one of those.


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## slclick (Feb 2, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Much appreciated!
> 
> What I think would really be a wise move by Canon would be to offer one week free trial periods for the new R cameras from authorized dealers.
> 
> ...


Can anyone give me a real world comparison of the M5 EVF to the EOS R? I didn't think the M5 was that bad, true, lots of room for improvement but it was incredibly better than my experience with Olympus EVF's.


----------



## gouldopfl (Feb 2, 2020)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> 8K?! 120fps at 4k?!
> 
> No way, not happening.


I think 8k will be something like timelapse and 4k @120 will have some kind of crop.


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## dtaylor (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> The classic DR is defined as "ratio between the maximum output signal level and the noise floor at minimum signal amplification". There's no viewing distance or print size involved.



We're not talking about a single pixel, but a matrix of millions of pixels integrated into a 2D image viewed by people. As a result the noise floor varies with view size.


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## dtaylor (Feb 2, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> It's 0.8 stops or so. That means I can push shadows on D850 0.8 stops farther.



Show us with two real world photographs what that means.

I always ask this. I've asked it many times over the years of different people in different forums. And I never get an answer. The reason is that they either A) can't find/exploit that gap, or B) do find/exploit it in a scene then realize how small it is.


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## Dragon (Feb 2, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> So you meant to type:
> 
> And using a slow SD card slows down a 5DIII/5DIII/5DS/5DIV. Nothing new there. Not everybody needs the speed at all, and most don't need it all the time. SD cards are WAY cheaper, even the UHSII variety.
> 
> ...


And then again, maybe I just remembered the 5DII as having 2 slots, but the point is the same. Some need speed and some need cheap. Not an issue with the IDX III because the pros don't want to deal with 2 readers, but the intermediate level the market is more variable so I am guessing one of each, but who knows, Canon may estimate that CFE cards will drop dramatically in price over the next year and just go for it. It looks like we will soon know the answer.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 2, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Show us with two real world photographs what that means.
> 
> I always ask this. I've asked it many times over the years of different people in different forums. And I never get an answer. The reason is that they either A) can't find/exploit that gap, or B) do find/exploit it in a scene then realize how small it is.


This is what 1.2 stops of difference looks like.




Here is the shadow detail difference.





For me that was the main deciding factor in upgrading from 1Ds MkIII's to 1DX MkII's, some people will never notice the difference, to me it was enough to put my money where my mouth is. I can completely understand other people having a very different opinion and it not being worth anything for their personal photography.


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## SecureGSM (Feb 2, 2020)

slclick said:


> Whoa! When I think indoors my mind goes to Basketball and typically you're at 35 under the rim, 50-85 baseline and MAYBE an occasional 135 across court for tight. Of course, indoors could be Kart racing at 400!


It is inline speed skating indoors for me. Around 70m across. It’s a fair loop


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## jam05 (Feb 2, 2020)

slclick said:


> Sorry if I am not willing to sift though 67 pages...
> 
> Has it been CR3'd that it will be in fact SD/CFExpress? Asking for a friend.


The question is 1.0 or 2.0 . CFExpress 1.0 = 1.97 GB/s CFExpress 2.0 = 1.0 - 4.0 GB/s


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## dtaylor (Feb 3, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> This is what 1.2 stops of difference looks like.



Shadow noise does not cause shadow detail to be excessively soft unless you compensate with heavy NR. There are significant sharpness, plane of focus, and DoF differences here. But no real shadow zone or noise differences.

I'm unclear as to how much you lifted these exposures, if at all, as this does not appear to be a high DR scene even if we include the sunlit area at the right edge (which is fairly over exposed). Also unclear as to what other settings you applied. Did both cameras severely underexpose this scene? Did you push the files then apply heavy NR to the 1Ds3 file? If not then this does not appear to be a DR comparison at all.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 3, 2020)

Kit. said:


> There is no other definition of DR. DR always describes a signal, and the choice which signal is of interest to you is always "arbitrary". When you know _which_ signal is of interest to you, you can do it scientifically.


No other definition? I think DxO uses the term 'landscape dynamic range' and photontophotos 'photographic dynamic range'. They're similar but based on a bit different approaches. Two different definitions already.

Those definitions are very specific to the corresponding sites and produce different results. My original point was, the DR absolute values from DxO and PTP are meaningless and can only be used for comparison, e.g. on DxO the landscape dynamic range is used for DxO scoring and can't be used anywhere else but by DxO.

Will you be able to use 5DIV's sensor DR of 13.7 stops from DxO, based on viewing at a print from a certain distance, but knowing that a paper print gives you 7 stops of DR at its best?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 3, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> We're not talking about a single pixel, but a matrix of millions of pixels integrated into a 2D image viewed by people. As a result the noise floor varies with view size.



So as in my message above, the argument was about DxO and PTP measurements; how do you use say the DxO value of 13.5 stops for the EOS R, based on viewing at a print, when any real print has 7 stops max? What does this value tell you?


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 3, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Here is the shadow detail difference.


it's good you've provided the examples but to be honest the second image is blurred or out of focus and very hard to use for comparison.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 3, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> it's good you've provided the examples but to be honest the second image is blurred or out of focus and very hard to use for comparison.





dtaylor said:


> Shadow noise does not cause shadow detail to be excessively soft unless you compensate with heavy NR. There are significant sharpness, plane of focus, and DoF differences here. But no real shadow zone or noise differences.
> 
> I'm unclear as to how much you lifted these exposures, if at all, as this does not appear to be a high DR scene even if we include the sunlit area at the right edge (which is fairly over exposed). Also unclear as to what other settings you applied. Did both cameras severely underexpose this scene? Did you push the files then apply heavy NR to the 1Ds3 file? If not then this does not appear to be a DR comparison at all.



And that is why it is pointless posting here. If you want comparative studio samples just go to DPReview. I posted a real world illustration that I casually did for me, I felt there was enough difference to actually spend $10,000 upgrading, you probably don't, I don't care. The difference between usable shadow lifting ability in that 1.2 stops of DR is dramatic and has proven worth it to me. Others who never do what I do might find that $10,000 better spent on lenses or put towards their kids education, that isn't for me to say, would I spend another $10,000 for another 0.8 of a stop of DR/shadow lifting ability? No, I am happy with the DR I have.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 3, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> And that is why it is pointless posting here. If you want comparative studio samples just go to DPReview.


In one of the previous similar arguments with dtaylor, I've already referred to DPReview, but he wasn't convinced. Neither he was happy with my sample images from 5DIV alone.
But in order to post a relevant hands-on comparison between say 7D and 5DIV, I need to shoot a scene with both cameras myself, and I have neither equipment nor time to do that just for the sake of the forum dynamic range war.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 3, 2020)

slclick said:


> Not sure if you've seen this trend as well but I think 3rd party EF lens mfg.s are starting to discount more so than in the past. Gotta get on the RF bandwagon.



Third party lens makers are starting to discount more with lenses in all camera mounts, not just EF. They probably have more EF lenses than F-mount, E-mount, K-mount, etc. in inventory, because EF is still the most popular lens mount on the market.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 3, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Canon will provide service and support for EF lenses, I have no doubt. But there will come a point when enough R cameraa have been sold that they will stop production of EF version of R lenses. It will make no sense to produce both.



As long as there are EF body owners buying EF lenses in sufficient numbers to make selling EF lenses profitable, Canon will continue to sell EF lenses, no matter how many RF bodies have been sold.

There will come a point when there is an equivalent RF lens for every EF lens that is no longer selling in sufficient numbers to make a profit on them. That's when EF lens sales will cease.

It has nothing to do with how many RF or EF cameras have been sold. There have been over 100 million EF bodies sold since 1987. It will take several decades for RF bodies to exceed that, if they ever do. It has to do with how many EF lenses continue to be sold in the future.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 3, 2020)

AlanF said:


> That is true but it is has been exacerbated by Canon. For example, the 400mm and 600mm III coming out after a relatively short time after version IIs.



EF 400mm f/2.8 L - April 1991
EF 400mm f/2.8 L II - March 1996 (4 years 11 months)
EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS - September 1999 (3 years 6 months)
EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS II - August 2011 (11 years 11 months)
EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS III - December 2018 (7 years 4 months)

The time between the "IS II" and "IS III" was the second longest interval in the series, and longer than the average interval of 6 years 11 months.

EF 600mm f/4 L - November 1988
EF 600mm f/4 L IS - September 1999 (10 years 10 months)
EF 600mm f/4 L IS II - June 2011 (10 years 9 months)
EF 600mm f/4 L IS III - September 2018 (7 years 3 months)

The time between the "IS II" and "IS III" was about 30% shorter than earlier intervals, mainly due to Canon skipping an EF 600mm f/4 L II to correspond to the non-IS "II" version of the 400/2.8.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 3, 2020)

AEWest said:


> In terms of your second point about Canon not forcing new mount (in this case RF) lenses onto photographers, unfortunately Canon did exactly that in 1987. My FD lenses at the time became bricks once EF camera mount was introduced, with no way of adapting them to the EOS cameras. EOS at the time was a four letter word to me!



What? All FD mount cameras spontaneously combusted in 1987? If they could have been adapted to EOS cameras, your FD lenses would have miraculously grown AF motors?

The reason your FD lenses plummeted in value is the same reason everyone's pre-1985 manual focus lenses dropped in value between 1987 and the early 1990s: they could not autofocus. Yes, Canon FD lenses dropped faster than Nikon F mount and other brands. But by circa 1995 no manual focus lenses were reselling for much of anything.

Seriously, Canon made the right decision in 1987. The AF revolution of the late 1980s-early 1990s was a bigger leap than the so called "DSLR → MILC revolution." Both are dwarfed by the impact of the "film → digital" revolution. Selecting an all electronic control interface for both AF and aperture in 1987 is what made Canon #1.

Nikon made the decision to keep backwards compatibility with non-AF lenses and for that they paid a dear price. In 1987 roughly 4/5 imaging professionals using 135 format film used Nikon. By 1992 Canon, with their all electronic EF mount that could harness the potential of lens based USM AF motors, was the leading brand among imaging professionals using 135 format film. It took Nikon until around 2016 (and creating non-fully backwards compatible "E" lenses) to finally catch up in terms of AF performance.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 3, 2020)

UlricWolf said:


> its not too bright (and its oled, so blacks are black), not too dim as well. And lag is the best in industry, its so small that it doesnt make any problemas anymore. Not blurry at all. In dark conditions it is probably noisy, but it shows a lot brighter image then optical VF - so Yes, its a benefit. Dos suck power, because its a display. But in real life it just uses 2x more battery then dslr. But it has face detection, it has exposition simulation and many more benefits compared to OVF. I just think that You are searching for problems not solitions.



That's what those of us who learned the basics of exposure and metering in the film era think about how great "exposition simulation" is supposed to be. For us it's a solution looking for a problem. Learn how to see a scene the way the camera will before you pull the camera up to your eye and you don't need all of those training wheels.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 3, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> This is what 1.2 stops of difference looks like.
> 
> View attachment 188494
> 
> ...




The EF 24mm f/1.4 II at f/5.6 is sharper than the EF 11-24mm f/4 L at 24mm and f/5.6, so the difference in detail is just as likely due to differences in lenses as in sensors.

Not to mention that you were shooting with the 24mm IS @ 1/125 vs. 1/60 with the 12-24mm without IS...

That and the fact that for Canon Cameras between 2007 and at least 2017, the ISO 125 setting uses an analog sensor amplification of ISO 100 and then includes instructions to push exposure +1/3 stop digitally (at the application's "zero" position) when doing raw conversion, so there's also that.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 3, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The EF 24mm f/1.4 II at f/5.6 is sharper than the EF 11-24mm f/4 L at 24mm and f/5.6, so the difference in detail is just as likely due to differences in lenses as in sensors.
> 
> Not to mention that you were shooting with the 24mm IS @ 1/125 vs. 1/60 with the 12-24mm without IS...
> 
> That and the fact that for Canon Cameras between 2007 and at least 2017, the ISO 125 setting uses an analog sensor amplification of ISO 100 and then includes instructions to push exposure +1/3 stop digitally (at the application's "zero" position) when doing raw conversion, so there's also that.


No neither lens had IS. I didn't use ISO 100 on the 1Ds MkIII because I had it set to whole stops to avoid the bad amplification you mention, the 1D X II doesn't have that issue so it was on ISO125.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 3, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> EF 400mm f/2.8 L - April 1991
> EF 400mm f/2.8 L II - March 1996 (4 years 11 months)
> EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS - September 1999 (3 years 6 months)
> EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS II - August 2011 (11 years 11 months)
> ...


Compare the 7 years lifetime of the two lenses I mentioned with the ages of the rest of the Canon white prime telephoto line up, which are still going strong: 200mm f/2L IS, 12 years; 300mm f/4L IS, 16 years; 300mm f/2.8L IS II, 10 years; 400mm f/5.6 L IS, 27 years; 400mm f/4L DO II IS, 5 years; 500mm f/4L II IS, 9 years; and 800mm f/5.6L IS, 12 years.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 3, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Compare the 7 years lifetime of the two lenses I mentioned with the rest of the Canon white prime telephoto line up: 200mm f/2L IS, unchanged after 12 years; 300mm f/4L IS, unchanged after 16 years; 300mm f/2.8L IS II, unchanged after 10 years; 400mm f/5.6 L IS I, unchanged after 27 years; 400mm f/4L DO II IS, unchanged after 5 years; 500mm f/4L II IS, unchanged after 9 years; and 800mm f/5.6L IS, unchanged after 12 years.



So Canon is supposed to sit by idly while the competition introduces 400mm f/2.8 and 600mm f/4 lenses with more modern optics that also take advantage of innovations that make them lighter and balanced better that Canon's "IS II" lineup? Just so folks who bought them as "investments" instead of to use to take pictures will be happy? What do you think would have happened to the price of new 400/2.8 IS II and 600/4 IS II lenses with such a competitive disadvantage? How would that have affected the "market value" of used copies?

EF 200/2 IS was effectively the IS replacement for the 200/1.8, and is a very low volume lens (There very well may still be enough existing inventory from a last production run several years ago)
EF 400/4 DO IS and DO IS II are very low volume lenses

EF 300/2.8 IS II → very likely waiting to be the first RF super telephoto
EF 500/4 IS II → also waiting in the wings to be an early RF super telephoto

Both the 300/2.8 and 500/4 would have likely seen replacements in 2019 or early 2020 (before the Olympics) if Canon had not shifted all of their lens design resources to RF development.

EF 300/4 → never to be updated (obvious for years - never even got an IS version)
EF 400/5.6 → never to be updated (obvious for years - never even got an IS version)
EF 800/5.6 IS → never to be updated/low volume lens (never got a II version)(There very well may still be enough existing inventory from a last production run several years ago)


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 3, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Compare the 7 years lifetime of the two lenses I mentioned with the ages of the rest of the Canon white prime telephoto line up, which are still going strong: 200mm f/2L IS, 12 years; 300mm f/4L IS, 16 years; 300mm f/2.8L IS II, 10 years; 400mm f/5.6 L IS, 27 years; 400mm f/4L DO II IS, 5 years; 500mm f/4L II IS, 9 years; and 800mm f/5.6L IS, 12 years.




When Nikon was the only competition in the high quality 300mm+ segment, Canon's superior AF performance was enough to make it practically a monopoly from the dawn of EOS until around 2016 with the introduction of the Nikon D5. Then Sony finally started releasing lenses longer than 200mm. The days of Canon's timetable for lens releases depending only on internal factors is over.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 3, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No neither lens had IS. I didn't use ISO 100 on the 1Ds MkIII because I had it set to whole stops to avoid the bad amplification you mention, the 1D X II doesn't have that issue so it was on ISO125.



You're still comparing a 24mm prime shot at 1/125 with a 12-24mm zoomed all the way in at 24mm (Please see Roger's Law of Wide Zoom Relativity) shot at 1/60.

Pretty much all of the differences I see in your two crops can be accounted for by camera motion and differences in focus distance as well as lens performance. I see nothing that can be attributed to differences in DR. That's not to say that the 1D X Mark II doesn't allow more pushing of shadows than the 1Ds Mark III, but these shots don't seem to demonstrate that. Neither one is remotely close to showing either camera's DR limits.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 3, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> So Canon is supposed to sit by idly while the competition introduces 400mm f/2.8 and 600mm f/4 lenses with more modern optics that also take advantage of innovations that make them lighter and balanced better that Canon's "IS II" lineup? Just so folks who bought them as "investments" instead of to use to take pictures will be happy? What do you think would have happened to the price of new 400/2.8 IS II and 600/4 IS II lenses with such a competitive disadvantage? How would that have affected the "market value" of used copies?
> 
> EF 200/2 IS was effectively the IS replacement for the 200/1.8, and is a very low volume lens (There very well may still be existing inventory from a last production run several years ago)
> EF 400/4 DO IS and DO IS II are very low volume lenses
> ...





Michael Clark said:


> When Nikon was the only competition in the high quality 300mm+ segment, Canon's superior AF performance was enough to make it practically a monopoly from the dawn of EOS until around 2016 with the introduction of the Nikon D5. Then Sony finally started releasing lenses longer than 200mm. The days of Canon's timetable for lens releases depending only on internal factors is over.


When I first began posting here it was in the era when some would post about “lnvesting” in glass or being comfortable with buying a Rolls-Royce of a lens with the confidence that they could sell it on. That era is over thanks to competition. There are so many good long lenses now that there is no need for the likes of me and my fellows amateurs to spend vast sums like we had to in the past.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 3, 2020)

AlanF said:


> When I first began posting here it was in the era when some would post about “lnvesting” in glass or being comfortable with buying a Rolls-Royce of a lens with the confidence that they could sell it on. That era is over thanks to competition. There are so many good long lenses now that there is no need for the likes of me and my fellows amateurs to spend vast sums like we had to in the past.



I wasn't here on this forum back then, but I also heard plenty of such talk. Any time I heard someone refer to a lens purchase as an "investment" I laughed at them. They'd get mad. Now they're crying, and I'm still laughing at the idea that a lens is an "investment."


----------



## AlanF (Feb 3, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I wasn't here on this forum back then, but I also heard plenty of such talk. Any time I heard someone refer to a lens purchase as an "investment" I laughed at them. They'd get mad. Now they're crying, and I'm still laughing at the idea that a lens is an "investment."


It's more charitable to be sympathetic to those who have suffered by being overtaken by events. There but for the grace of god goes AlanF.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 3, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> No other definition?


No definition without "arbitrary interest". No definition that would not involve an "arbitrary" choice of what we count as a "message".

No message = no DR.
No "arbitrary interest" = no DR.

It's just that your "arbitrary interest" is in what is easier to measure, not in what one would actually need as a result. Typical "streetlight effect".



Quarkcharmed said:


> Those definitions are very specific to the corresponding sites and produce different results. My original point was, the DR absolute values from DxO and PTP are meaningless and can only be used for comparison, e.g. on DxO the landscape dynamic range is used for DxO scoring and can't be used anywhere else but by DxO.


At least they are useful for comparison, even if you don't understand their choice of the model for the signal. Your "pixel DR" isn't.



Quarkcharmed said:


> Will you be able to use 5DIV's sensor DR of 13.7 stops from DxO, based on viewing at a print from a certain distance, but knowing that a paper print gives you 7 stops of DR at its best?


Had you read and understood what was written before and _repeated_ above, the answer for you would be obviously "yes".

Have you really never heard of "dynamic range compression" anyway?


----------



## Kit. (Feb 3, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Just so folks who bought them as "investments" instead of to use to take pictures will be happy?


Technically, buying something in order to be able to use it later as a tool is investment. Not every investment is "value investment". Buying a tool now lets you not spend on renting it later.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 3, 2020)

Kit. said:


> At least they are useful for comparison, even if you don't understand their choice of the model for the signal. Your "pixel DR" isn't.



Right, full stop. That's basically my point about since the beginning of this argument - the 'photographic' DR is only useful for comparison and only across cameras measured with the same method.

All I was saying was that the absolute values of the photographic DR are meaningless outside of comparison charts. That's good someone's finally agreed to my point.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 3, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Right, full stop. That's basically my point about since the beginning of this argument - the 'photographic' DR is only useful for comparison and only across cameras measured with the same method.


...if you don't understand their choice of the model for the signal.



Quarkcharmed said:


> All I was saying was that the absolute values of the photographic DR are meaningless outside of comparison charts.


Not all. You were also claiming that your "pixel DR" was any better.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 3, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You're still comparing a 24mm prime shot at 1/125 with a 12-24mm zoomed all the way in at 24mm (Please see Roger's Law of Wide Zoom Relativity) shot at 1/60.
> 
> Pretty much all of the differences I see in your two crops can be accounted for by camera motion and differences in focus distance as well as lens performance. I see nothing that can be attributed to differences in DR. That's not to say that the 1D X Mark II doesn't allow more pushing of shadows than the 1Ds Mark III, but these shots don't seem to demonstrate that. Neither one is remotely close to showing either camera's DR limits.


I wasn't saying your other points weren't valid, I was correcting the factual errors you made.

I wasn't comparing lens sharpness either, I took the pictures specifically to look in the shadows, relative sharpness was not a consideration of mine. That others throw up a straw-man of they are framed differently, they aren't the same sharpness, dof etc etc while not looking solely at the metric the comparison was shot for is comical.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 3, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So as in my message above, the argument was about DxO and PTP measurements; how do you use say the DxO value of 13.5 stops for the EOS R, based on viewing at a print, when any real print has 7 stops max? What does this value tell you?



No offense, but it tells me you don't know enough about this topic to be discussing it. Mapping captured DR to a print is part of the art and science of photography which was described in technical detail at least as far back as Ansel Adam's books.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 3, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> And that is why it is pointless posting here.



It is pointless to post two pictures which do not stress, test, or illustrate DR differences then get upset when that is mentioned by multiple people. I'm not saying you're wrong in general about 1DX2 vs 1Ds3 DR. I'm simply pointing out that these images do not illustrate the difference.



> The difference between usable shadow lifting ability in that 1.2 stops of DR is dramatic and has proven worth it to me.



There's no real read noise in either one and no shadow zone difference. In other words you didn't push one to a higher zone than the other (illustrating more room to push) nor did one show a weakness not found in the other (noise).

Unless I'm mistaken and you eliminated read noise in the 1Ds3 image with heavy NR, the softness has nothing to do with DR.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 3, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I wasn't comparing lens sharpness either, I took the pictures specifically to look in the shadows, relative sharpness was not a consideration of mine.



Perhaps you should post the RAWs because I don't see much in the way of deep shadows there. Unless you severely underexposed these shots, pushed 3-4ev, and then applied heavy NR to the 1Ds3 shot to mask read noise, these shots didn't test DR.

The DR differences we are debating occur at zones 0 and 1 in an unprocessed RAW. Basically in shadow detail that's not apparent...areas that are black or nearly so...before the push. If you're at ISO 100 and taking zone 3 to zone 5 read noise is a non issue as far back as a 10D.



> That others throw up a straw-man of they are framed differently, they aren't the same sharpness, dof etc etc while not looking solely at the metric the comparison was shot for is comical.



The only two differences between your crops are sharpness and color balance. You posted them saying "this is the difference" leaving others to assume that somehow DR resulted in a sharper photo. If that was not your intent then what is the difference we're looking for in your crops?


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 3, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> In one of the previous similar arguments with dtaylor, I've already referred to DPReview, but he wasn't convinced.



I think DPReview's lab tests are a great way to examine sensor DR _if you have enough experience to know how that maps to the real world._

They've done a couple real world comparisons which are decent if you download the RAWs and give them proper processing.



> Neither he was happy with my sample images from 5DIV alone.



You mean the 1.5ev push that any DSLR ever made could handle?


----------



## koketso (Feb 3, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> These specs don't look realistic to me. The 4K 120fps is not like Canon at all, same for the 12/20fps.


I thought about this, but it could be possible with the 1D's processor.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 3, 2020)

Canon Thoughts - The internet loses its mind


It seems the internet has weighed in with the Canon EOS R5. With some interesting, and even some amusing takes. Let's be real here. The EOS R1 (or whatever it will be called - I think if it's an R5 and R6, odds are very good it's an R1) is coming in 2021. Canon is going to leave things off...



www.canonnews.com





Great piece from CanonNews


----------



## jam05 (Feb 3, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> Hardly. If it is any 5D mirrorless then it is on PCP, coke and steroids all at once. The 5D doesn't do this kinda of video stuff (8k and 4k 120,or even 4k full width). The 5D line doesn't do anywhere close 12fps m-shutter, or 20 fps e-shutter. etc etc etc.
> 
> If anything this is a high MP 1DXIII mirrorless, cause 20 fpse-shutter is A9 territory. Just from that alone I would guess this will be around 4-5k price point. Knowing canon maybe even close to 6k.
> 
> In my opinion, RP = 6D, R = 5D line, and this thing would be 1D line. As close to an analogy as it can be, cause of the R5 is more in the form factor of the R it is 5D form factor but 1D specs...


You mean the 5D of yesteryear that is. It's 2020 not 2017. Heck smartphones will be pushing 8k 30fps this year and 108 and 200mp on that Snapdragon 865. Many of us in the tech industry aren't in awe of.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 3, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> No offense, but it tells me you don't know enough about this topic to be discussing it. Mapping captured DR to a print is part of the art and science of photography which was described in technical detail at least as far back as Ansel Adam's books.


What is especially hilarious is that the classic B&W silver halide film (and paper) is a "1-bit" sensor. Each single grain after processing becomes either fully transparent or fully opaque.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 3, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon Thoughts - The internet loses its mind
> 
> 
> It seems the internet has weighed in with the Canon EOS R5. With some interesting, and even some amusing takes. Let's be real here. The EOS R1 (or whatever it will be called - I think if it's an R5 and R6, odds are very good it's an R1) is coming in 2021. Canon is going to leave things off...
> ...


Thanks. That is quite a detailed explanation as to why 8K is possible.

Biggest question mark then is heat dissipation...how do you shoot 8K for any length of time without the camera becoming a toaster? I guess we'll find out soon enough!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 3, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> You mean the 1.5ev push that any DSLR ever made could handle?



No, not any. Old Canon sensors don't handle such a push well, deep shadows become unacceptably messy. Even not so deep shadows are noisy to start with.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 3, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> No offense, but it tells me you don't know enough about this topic to be discussing it. Mapping captured DR to a print is part of the art and science of photography which was described in technical detail at least as far back as Ansel Adam's books.



You simply didn't answer the question. The question was, how exactly do you use the DR value of say 13.5 stops for EOS R from DxO?

In their calculations, as far as I can see, they don't actually do any DR compression to match the DR of a paper print, which would mean some mapping of the 14 bit image to 6 or 7 bits.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 3, 2020)

Kit. said:


> What is especially hilarious is that the classic B&W silver halide film (and paper) is a "1-bit" sensor. Each single grain after processing becomes either fully transparent or fully opaque.



Only that is totally irrelevant to what we were talking about, that is DxO or PTP method of calculating the DR.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 3, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Only that is totally irrelevant to what we were talking about,


You were wondering how a 14-bit sensor could give more than 14 stops of DR.

B&W film was a "1-bit sensor". What DR do you think it would be limited to?


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 3, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Thanks. That is quite a detailed explanation as to why 8K is possible.
> 
> Biggest question mark then is heat dissipation...how do you shoot 8K for any length of time without the camera becoming a toaster? I guess we'll find out soon enough!


Possibly externally. But I dont know if HDMI can support that data rate. But I think external
Recorders woth hdmi top out at 4k60. Beyond that, its either internal or SDI and there’s no way you’ll get sdi on a small body like this. 

Data Rate:
[email protected] = [email protected] (roughly) assuming each readout is 1:1 pixels. Hence a HUGE crop in 4k120. Like 2.5x to 3x (someone do the math for me)

hence I guarantee CFExpress card slot on this camera with the probably second slot cfast2.0 or SDXC (or whatever the fastest SD card is now)


----------



## Dequals61 (Feb 4, 2020)

brad-man said:


> In economics, there is the concept of _Supply and Demand_. As long as customers are willing to pay for EF lenses, Canon will produce and sell them. Canon makes a profit from the sales of EF lenses. Canon's plan is not to force people into switching to RF. They are producing RF lenses that are superior to their EF counterparts so folks will _want_ to switch...


Supply and demand is fine and true but there will come a time when EF lenses will no longer be produced. Now in Canon speak we are probably talking years. This would not happen until Canons full camera line up was completely RF compatible mounts, that includes the Cine line stuff as well. After all Canon's flagship 1DxIII which even isn't available yet for purchase is only EF mount compatible.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 4, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> Supply and demand is fine and true but there will come a time when EF lenses will no longer be produced. Now in Canon speak we are probably talking years. This would not happen until Canons full camera line up was completely RF compatible mounts, that includes the Cine line stuff as well. After all Canon's flagship 1DxIII which even isn't available yet for purchase is only EF mount compatible.


Best to Clarify whether we mean Canon will cease to make NEW EF glass vs. Canon will cease all existing production. Both will happen. But two phases.

Canon has already signaled clearly that few if any NEW EF glass in development. Maybe a few tweaks on some of the Great Whites as EF bodies will long be in use for a big pro segment. How do we know? Brand new 50L came out after many many years of people waiting for an upgrade. It came out for RF. Hope no one is holding their breath for an EF counterpart. What about a 24-70f2.8 L IS for EF? Nope. Not gonna happen.

Canon will finish cranking out their current EF production schedule and let the stock slowly dwindle down to nothing and move full tilt into RF. And yes this will take several years.

And as soon as the RF Crop bodies start emerging, the EFM line will be killed off in the same fashion. As keeping the M line makes no sense with RF out there. Notice how few M lenses Canon has bothered to develop? Once the FF RF lens family gets fleshed out, the RF-S (like EF-S crop) will start up.


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> Supply and demand is fine and true but there will come a time when EF lenses will no longer be produced. Now in Canon speak we are probably talking years. This would not happen until Canons full camera line up was completely RF compatible mounts, that includes the Cine line stuff as well. After all Canon's flagship 1DxIII which even isn't available yet for purchase is only EF mount compatible.


Therefore I conclude that EF will have a production or at least healthy stock numbers for the typical 1D series cycle. i.e. EF lenses for 4-6+ years? I mean it's not such a hard thing to wrap your head around or necessary of 138 pages of CR dialog....They made the R series compatible in the best way with EF. Folks here love to complicate EVERYTHING (see current sensor jabber *Yawn*) Must be fun at parties!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> You were wondering how a 14-bit sensor could give more than 14 stops of DR.



During the last few pages we didn't even touch that topic. Current discussion is about relevance of absolute values of DR from DxO and PTP, at least for me. The conversation is sidetracking all the time though.

And no, 14-bit sensor can't produce a raw file with more than 14 stops of DR. Moreover you don't get additional DR by simple downsampling. You need to convert to 16 or 32 bits, then downsample. 
But that's not the original file and most importantly not the original resolution is it? I think the DR at native resolution is also important, or per-pixel DR before any conversions.



Kit. said:


> B&W film was a "1-bit sensor". What DR do you think it would be limited to?


If you convert it to digital (by scanning), you'll get a 16-bit image and will be able to calculate the DR. If you don't want to convert it, you use analog methods to calculate S/N. You'd probably need to normalise both film and digital in order to compare, if you want to compare film and digital. Neither of imaginable comparison methods will involve converting film crystals into 1-bit pixels. Most likely you'll figure out the resolution of the film first and then you'll get a number of "1-bit crystals" per resolving unit area, not just one bit. But the crystals in film are not laid out in a nice regular 2D grid, they're stacked and overlap in 3D. Overall this comparison of film to 1-bit sensor is fallacious.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> Folks here love to complicate EVERYTHING (see current sensor jabber *Yawn*) Must be fun at parties!


I think there may be more Dynamic Range talk than there is about the R5 itself. I'd go back and count, but I could go back to school and get a Dr. quicker. Or an art degree so I'd know what art is.


----------



## Dequals61 (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I've never considered cameras or lenses "investments." They've always been expenses to me. Same thing with vehicles and everything else the marketers try to sell to us by fooling us into thinking it's an "investment" rather than an "expense." If you depreciate it on your taxes, it's not an investment.


I agree. The term 'investment' is loosely used when applied to any type of equipment purchase. First- if you are a commercial photographer the investment you make in a lens for example would only apply if that purchase increased your products appeal thus bringing greater monetary gain. Other words that investment pays for itself plus puts additional money in your pocket. Second- you're making a purchase on a piece of gear that you will use throughout your photographic lifetime. Again using lenses as an example. There's a lens that you really want and would be very beneficial for your type of photography but you bye a lesser cheaper lens just to be disappointed. You eventually end up purchasing the original lens anyways thus costing you more money in the long run.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 4, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> No, not any. Old Canon sensors don't handle such a push well, deep shadows become unacceptably messy. Even not so deep shadows are noisy to start with.



Here's a 2 stop push of a 10D RAW. There's not a whole lot of detail to begin with since we're talking about a 6mp sensor that was good for 8x10 and 11x14. But the shadow push is hardly a mess. I'm not seeing terrible banding or unacceptable noise. Should I try for 3?



Quarkcharmed said:


> You simply didn't answer the question.



Two people answered your question. If you don't understand how tones are compressed for print, nor how to manage that process, then DR is not the discussion for you and you are no where near needing a higher DR sensor.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> You were wondering how a 14-bit sensor could give more than 14 stops of DR.
> 
> B&W film was a "1-bit sensor". What DR do you think it would be limited to?



Since only the DR of an individual element matters the answer is clearly one stop


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I think there may be more Dynamic Range talk than there is about the R5 itself. I'd go back and count, but I could go back to school and get a Dr. quicker. Or an art degree so I'd know what art is.



OTOH if you read all the DR posts you will qualify for Masters of Dynamic Range from a prestigious school or maybe a Cracker Jack box


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 4, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> OTOH if you read all the DR posts you will qualify for Masters of Dynamic Range from a prestigious school or maybe a Cracker Jack box


Except that, by the looks of it, one person or the other either doesn't know what they are talking about or just HAS to have the last word.  It's like debating ESP.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> But the shadow push is hardly a mess. I'm not seeing terrible banding or unacceptable noise.



That explains a lot. You find it acceptable, I think it's very noisy. The roofs are basically pure noise, the details in wooden bearings are barely distinguishable. 5DIV would have probably done much better there even at 1:1 scale.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 4, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> During the last few pages we didn't even touch that topic. Current discussion is about relevance of absolute values of DR from DxO and PTP, at least for me.



There is no such thing as an 'absolute DR value' for an array of sensor elements. For any such application...not just one that is visible light photography...the noise floor is determined by how the elements are processed. And whether you like it or not the human eye is blending elements to a greater degree with an 8x10 than with a 32x40, even if the printer faithfully reproduces every last pixel. And that alters the noise floor thereby altering SNR.



> And no, 14-bit sensor can't produce a raw file with more than 14 stops of DR. Moreover you don't get additional DR by simple downsampling.



The very existence of something like RadioactivityCounter proves you wrong. As do hundreds of other algorithms and applications across a range of domains (photography, communications, radar, deep space imaging, etc). The SNR of an array of elements is not bound by the SNR of a single element.



> I think the DR at native resolution is also important, or per-pixel DR before any conversions.



I to force my users to view 90" prints. To hell with them if they want to view something smaller!  



> *B&W film was a "1-bit sensor". What DR do you think it would be limited to?*
> If you convert it to digital (by scanning), you'll get a 16-bit image and will be able to calculate the DR.



You completely missed his point. If the SNR of a single sensor element is the correct, native, absolute SNR for the entire sensor...your position...then B&W film would have 1 stop of DR. It obviously has more.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 4, 2020)

richperson said:


> I get your logic, but the 400mm f/2.8 is the biggest money lens. I still bet that is the first.



My bet is that the 300III will get the same advanced lightening treatment as the 400. 

My hope is that they either release EF and RF side by side or release as an RF with removable adapter to make it EF. Preferably two separate versions. 

The question in 5 years will he whether they will ever release a big white for EF. I predict then we’ll accept the new 400 was the last EF of that size.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 4, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That explains a lot. You find it acceptable, I think it's very noisy. The roofs are basically pure noise,



I have to zoom in 400% to see "noise" except I can't tell what's noise and what's pixelation. And since they were <2% gray (i.e. black) in the original it's an open question if the noise is read noise or photon shot noise. Either way it would not be visible in an 8x12 which is about what a 6mp sensor is good for.



> ...the details in wooden bearings are barely distinguishable. 5DIV would have probably done much better there even at 1:1 scale.



A 30mp FF sensor would have rendered better fine detail than a 6mp APS-C one? *Shocker.*


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Except that, by the looks of it, one person or the other either doesn't know what they are talking about or just HAS to have the last word.  It's like debating ESP.


hens cackling. They need to get a room or at least a ring to duke it out.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Except that, by the looks of it, one person or the other either doesn't know what they are talking about or just HAS to have the last word.  It's like debating ESP.



Hey I'm just trying to make a 2020 reply thread in celebration of the new year


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Except that, by the looks of it, one person or the other either doesn't know what they are talking about or just HAS to have the last word.  It's like debating ESP.


Can you imagine going on a shoot with the sensor dudes? Insert just hang me emoji


----------



## Dequals61 (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> Oh I see, there's a $129 additional glass clear filter. That's.... what's the word?
> 
> 
> * LAME*
> ...


True- but when your the only one providing such an option it's going to cost. Also it would be cheaper for anyone interested in the EF-RF filter adapter to just purchase the standard EF-RF adaptor and just swap between the two. The standard EF-RF adaptor at $99 bucks is cheaper then the 'clear plug'. Also whether this filter system is ideal or not would also depend on what type of lens you're applying a filter to. If filtering a EF 16-35 I'd be more than happy just using standard front mount filters. But if I was a big Tamron 15-30 f/2.8 user than this option would have much more appeal.


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> True- but when your the only one providing such an option it's going to cost. Also it would be cheaper for anyone interested in the EF-RF filter adapter to just purchase the standard EF-RF adaptor and just swap between the two. The standard EF-RF adaptor at $99 bucks is cheaper then the 'clear plug'. Also whether this filter system is ideal or not would also depend on what type of lens you're applying a filter to. If filtering a EF 16-35 I'd be more than happy just using standard front mount filters. But if I was a big Tamron 15-30 f/2.8 user than this option would have much more appeal.


 They make the EF glass work with RF and then rape you with the adapter situation. I am usually the biggest Canon defender but this was not well thought out. The right thing to do would to include the clear glass in each filter based adapter and charge a decent compromised price. Anytime any manufacturer makes you buy that one little thing which whould have been included, that;'s the thing that pisses me off the most. It didn't have to cost because it was proprietary, it costs more because they are selling the R/RP at incredibly low costs and some Canon bean counter is sending countless emails about recouping costs and this is the way. Well, at least there are options (control ring)


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> Can you imagine going on a shoot with the sensor dudes? Insert just hang me emoji


You don't see that emoji in the lineup? Oh yeah, hard to see. It's in the shadows and my screen only has 10 stops of DR.


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> You don't see that emoji in the lineup? Oh yeah, hard to see. It's in the shadows and my screen only has 10 stops of DR.


You EOS R guys, flaunting your DR over the 2012 22 MP sensor folks.


----------



## mppix (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> *(key edit above)*
> 
> The answer is clear _for each individual in this market segment_, and probably with a 40-60, 50-50 sort of outcome. Sony succeeding and Canon focusing resources in RF is not enough to tell me that Canon will abruptly abandon the nontrivial part of the market that got them here.
> 
> ...




If this rumor stands without an infinite list of asterisks (and that is a big if), I would not hold my breath for much innovation in the EF system, in particular for a 5DV.

If they can pull it off, such a product would only make sense if they wanted to be absolutely certain that RF will be THE leading mirrorless system and the true successor of EF (or translated from business language: "showing Sony who the boss is," "putting Nikon in the corner," and "make sure the L-L-L mount alliance won't go anywhere").

This does not come without risk. Such a body would cannibalize C-line sales at least to some extend. .. and an RF C-line would need to be on the horizon. On the other hand, this strategy would perfectly fit the RF lens releases, where many are best-in-class.

It will be fun to see if they can pull it off. The 1DXiii shoots 12/20fps and they demoed a C-line camera shooting 4:4:4 ProRes 8K raw video (external I believe) at Apple Pro launch.

In the meantime, my 5Div is getting better by the day


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> You EOS R guys, flaunting your DR over the 2012 22 MP sensor folks.


Trying to look up the specs on my screen. Really wondering how much DR it has and whether or not sensor DR makes any difference if my screen can't handle it. Now I'm perturbed. *Pours another scotch or lights a doobie*


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Trying to look up the specs on my screen. Really wondering how much DR it has and whether or not sensor DR makes any difference if my screen can't handle it. Now I'm perturbed. *Pours another scotch or lights a doobie*


*or*?... oh and using the word 'doobie' is for certain Boomer language. Cue the Steely Dan vinyl


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> *or*?... oh and using the word 'doobie' is for certain Boomer language. Cue the Steely Dan vinyl


Not really *or*, but I am in Texas these days... so I'll call it scotch. Definitely taking a snort.  Of whiskey. Aja!


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Not really *or*, but I am in Texas these days... so I'll call it scotch. Definitely taking a snort.  Of whiskey.


See, now isn't this better than 'pixel well 'banter?

(or doing the impossible, relating DR to film rez?) Personally I enjoy both wide and narrow latitude films, they each have their own merits and challenges while the red light is on.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> See, now isn't this better than 'pixel well 'banter?
> 
> (or doing the impossible, relating DR to film rez?) Personally I enjoy both wide and narrow latitude films, they each have their own merits and challenges while the red light is on.


Speaking of red lights and latitude, I think we're parked dude.


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Speaking of red lights and latitude, I think we're parked dude.


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 4, 2020)

The dude abides.


----------



## mppix (Feb 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Trying to look up the specs on my screen. Really wondering how much DR it has and whether or not sensor DR makes any difference if my screen can't handle it. Now I'm perturbed. *Pours another scotch or lights a doobie*



I think you would know (if you bought a reference monitor).
Most folks (at least that I know) work and print in sRGB (8-bit) jpeg. 
Even going to Adobe RGB (still 8-bit) needs an established workflow (including appropriately dialed in software, monitor, and a printshop that doesn't ignore your ICC profile and has the printers that can cover the full range of your ICC profile).
Either way, 8-bit sRGB/Adobe RGB gives you about 11 stop of dynamic range (through nonlinear compression), which means you have about 3-4 stops of DR to play in post.


----------



## brad-man (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> *or*?... oh and using the word 'doobie' is for certain Boomer language. Cue the Steely Dan vinyl


_Vinyl! _DVD-Audio baby! The Cuervo Gold, the fine Columbian...


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> There is no such thing as an 'absolute DR value' for an array of sensor elements.


Of course there is. https://clarkvision.com/articles/digital.sensor.performance.summary/#intro It's 'absolute' in the sense it doesn't depend on human perception, print size and viewing distance.



dtaylor said:


> The very existence of something like RadioactivityCounter proves you wrong.



You've cut my quote and left out an important part of my message. No you can't get more than 14 stops from a 14-bit image. Downsampling a 14-bit image means information loss and no gain in DR. In order to gain the DR, you need to convert to higher bitness. In practice they convert to 16 bits, then downsample. This way you trade the resolution for the DR. You now have more bits to accommodate the additional information. But it's not the original raw image your sensor produced is it?



dtaylor said:


> I to force my users to view 90" prints. To hell with them if they want to view something smaller!



You missed the point, the DxO or PTP scores aren't about real prints either. Their models don't involve actual printing. So DxO's 'landscape DR' value doesn't tell you the actual DR of your physical prints.
So as I said, it's simply useless if you try to use it as 'stand alone' value. But it's useful for comparison.


----------



## Dequals61 (Feb 4, 2020)

richperson said:


> I have an R and will definitely upgrade to an R5, but the only RF lens I bought, and the only RF lenses I will likely get in the near future are the unicorns (RF 28-70mm f/2). My EF lenses work perfectly on the R, so no reason to duplicated them.





AEWest said:


> I have in fact owned Canon DSLRs since 2003 and would love for them to coexist with mirrorless. I still don't own a mirrorless camera. I am merely pointing out my prediction for Canon and giving reasons why I think we are quite quickly nearing the end of Canon DSLR lifecycle -quicker than many here think.
> 
> I have an economics background and having two separate lens lineups for essentially the same camera (one being mirrorless, the other DSLR) makes no economic sense.
> 
> ...


Reality is a bitch isn't it! I'm reading quite a few posts that even though the R5 is coming out lots of folks still seem to believe that there will be a 5DV. That Canon will simply produce both models sometime in 2020 so that those who still prefer a DSLR over mirrorless can have a 'choice'. From a marketing and economic viewpoint I just can't see that happening especially in a shrinking market. Canon isn't pouring resources and R&D into a new mount that is incompatible with their existing DSLR's just so consumers can move over to the R series when and if they feel like it. The transition in keeping the EF mount lenses compatible with any new system was imperative. And yes we're still talking years before the EF's will simply disappear but Canon will nudge this along as quickly as possible.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> What I think would really be a wise move by Canon would be to offer one week free trial periods for the new R cameras from authorized dealers.



The top retailers already do this. And it’s 30 days with free shipping both ways. 60 days if you pay for the VIP plan. Much cheaper than CPS but appropriate only for when you really plan to keep it if you like it. I switched to Canon last year after testing the RP and sending it back, then again when I was more committed. They even pay shipping both ways unlike CPS. 

I’m taking heat for this on another thread but wouldn’t be a Canon owner without it.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

mppix said:


> I think you would know (if you bought a reference monitor).
> Most folks (at least that I know) work and print in sRGB (8-bit) jpeg.
> Even going to Adobe RGB (still 8-bit) needs an established workflow (including appropriately dialed in software, monitor, and a printshop that doesn't ignore your ICC profile and has the printers that can cover the full range of your ICC profile).
> Either way, 8-bit sRGB/Adobe RGB gives you about 11 stop of dynamic range (through nonlinear compression), which means you have about 3-4 stops of DR to play in post.



Depending on the tools, Lightroom converts everything into 16 bit DNG/TIFF based format internally, as far as I know. PS can do even 32 IIRC, but you can also set it to 8-bit RGB. When you work with raw files from cameras, you normally work at 16 bits and compress to 8 bit sRGB only when exporting the final image.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 4, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Of course there is. https://clarkvision.com/articles/digital.sensor.performance.summary/#intro It's 'absolute' in the sense it doesn't depend on human perception, print size and viewing distance.



You might want to actually read that article. The entire article. Including the sections on Photographic Situations and Photographic Stops of DR.



> So DxO's 'landscape DR' value doesn't tell you the actual DR of your physical prints.



Yeah...this topic is simply above your level of understanding. Kit can try if he wants, but I'm done. You're never going to be happy unless Canon matches some arbitrary number on a graph, whether you actually need or use that number or not.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 4, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Compare the 7 years lifetime of the two lenses I mentioned with the ages of the rest of the Canon white prime telephoto line up, which are still going strong: 200mm f/2L IS, 12 years; 300mm f/4L IS, 16 years; 300mm f/2.8L IS II, 10 years; 400mm f/5.6 L IS, 27 years; 400mm f/4L DO II IS, 5 years; 500mm f/4L II IS, 9 years; and 800mm f/5.6L IS, 12 years.



The older ones may we’ll be orphans. Presumably never to be replaced in EF. The 300 2.8 seems to be the readiest candidate for a replacement. Presumably in RF but possibly both.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> Can you imagine going on a shoot with the sensor dudes? Insert just hang me emoji



lol. but there's a big difference between a real photoshoot and this forum. This thread is mostly for fun, you can't shoot here (yet you can kill time!). In the field I don't even think about all this stuff, I'm using several known techniques and that's all. I don't calculate the dynamic range of the scene and don't print images to view them at a certain distance... Would probably need a Polaroid for that...


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> lol. but there's a big difference between a real photoshoot and this forum. This thread is mostly for fun, you can't shoot here (yet you can kill time!). In the field I don't even think about all this stuff, I'm using several known techniques and that's all. I don't calculate the dynamic range of the scene and don't print images to view them at a certain distance... Would probably need a Polaroid for that...


Ok, you're in.


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> The older ones may we’ll be orphans. Presumably never to be replaced in EF. The 300 2.8 seems to be the readiest candidate for a replacement. Presumably in RF but possibly both.


Any reasonable chatter that we'll see something longer than 240mm (and 200 in quality glass) in RF in the near future? I'm not talking patents...I wasn't sure that the 100-500 was credible or not, what is it's CR#?


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> Ok, you're in.


Guido! Unhook the rope and let him pass.


----------



## Dequals61 (Feb 4, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Well, I believe Canon Rumors Guy has said that a 5D V is also planned for this year so I would expect we will see this same sensor in the next 5D generation. Canon is not ready to abandon the 5D just yet.


Well we'll see. It's just hard to understand why Canon would be pouring money and R&D into the RF line of lenses and still introducing new camera bodies that can't utilize those lenses. The 1DxIII was excusable for Canon's sensor tech is not up to par currently with the requirements needed for that camera. Plus most shooting on a 1DxIII are using the long EF whites which will take a couple of years yet to be filled in with RF equivalents.


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> Well we'll see. It's just hard to understand why Canon would be pouring money and R&D into the RF line of lenses and still introducing new camera bodies that can't utilize those lenses. The 1DxIII was excusable for Canon's sensor tech is not up to par currently with the requirements needed for that camera. Plus most shooting on a 1DxIII are using the long EF whites which will take a couple of years yet to be filled in with RF equivalents.


YMMV, My experience has been seeing more 1DX users with PJ length glass and not long whites. Sure, they are there as well but not in the majority...how can $8-11k lenses be in the majority?


----------



## unfocused (Feb 4, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> Well we'll see. It's just hard to understand why Canon would be pouring money and R&D into the RF line of lenses and still introducing new camera bodies that can't utilize those lenses...


Because people buy them.


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Because people buy them.


I spent $1679 on one last week. Have at least 3 more in my wish list for 2020 as well over $5k total. Not a single R lens I am interested in at the time.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> You might want to actually read that article. The entire article. Including the sections on Photographic Situations and Photographic Stops of DR.



And what exactly did you gather from there and how it contradicts what I said?  What do you think a 'photographic stop' means there? It's simply what we call a stop when changing exposure, instead of decibels (dB). Or what else did you find there?



dtaylor said:


> Yeah...this topic is simply above your level of understanding.



My primary speciality is software and I've worked with sound and imaging. Thanks but I understand digital conversions, bitness, information loss etc. pretty well. 



dtaylor said:


> You're never going to be happy unless Canon matches some arbitrary number on a graph, whether you actually need or use that number or not.



You've probably been arguing with your own ghosts. I never said I wasn't happy, moreover, most of this particular sub-thread wasn't about Canon specifically, it was about DxO and PTP measurements.


----------



## mppix (Feb 4, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Depending on the tools, Lightroom converts everything into 16 bit DNG/TIFF based format internally, as far as I know. PS can do even 32 IIRC, but you can also set it to 8-bit RGB. When you work with raw files from cameras, you normally work at 16 bits and compress to 8 bit sRGB only when exporting the final image.



Well, Lightroom (and newer PS) do non-destructive editing in the sense that there is *no* conversion whatsoever until exported (sure, both will run large enough bit numbers when computing the final image). The displayed image has more to do what your monitor is capable of (unless you have a $30k reference monitor), i.e. the motor ICC/calibrated profile at best and not calibrated at worst. As far as I know most general purpose monitors (even those for photography) top out somewhere at or slightly better than AdobeRGB color space (~11stops) but all current cameras work with 14-bit/pixel in RAW, which tops out at 14-15 stops DR.
This gives about 3-4 stops of latitude for editing since most folks export to jpeg.
Yes, Lightroom/PS can do 16-bit and 32-bit TIFF, where the latter is only useful for HDR stacking. For HDR, 32bit TIFF is great since such files can encode massive color spaces. Unfortunately, we cannot see nor print them.
In a future, I would love to see a proper sunset on my screen (that is with THE sun in the picture)


----------



## mppix (Feb 4, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Because people buy them.



.. and would keep buying them. How would Canon justify and recover the RF R&D costs if they port everything to EF?
By now they are heavily invested and its highly doubtful that they are selling anywhere close to enough RF equipment, yet.
Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate but its also a genuine question.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

So you're saying that you can't see noise here at 1:1?

(1), (3) - barely distinguishable
(2) - pure noise, the roofs don't have any detail at all
(4) - shows how detail gradually turns into noise as the wall becomes darker near the bottom.

5DIV would obviously do better if shot at equivalent focal length to produce the same crop when viewed 1:1. In other words, its per-pixel performance is much better. 80D or 90D would also do much better.






dtaylor said:


> I have to zoom in 400% to see "noise" except I can't tell what's noise and what's pixelation. And since they were <2% gray (i.e. black) in the original it's an open question if the noise is read noise or photon shot noise. Either way it would not be visible in an 8x12 which is about what a 6mp sensor is good for.
> 
> 
> 
> A 30mp FF sensor would have rendered better fine detail than a 6mp APS-C one? *Shocker.*


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 4, 2020)

mppix said:


> Well, Lightroom (and newer PS) do non-destructive editing in the sense that there is *no* conversion whatsoever until exported (sure, both will run large enough bit numbers when computing the final image). The displayed image has more to do what your monitor is capable of (unless you have a $30k reference monitor), i.e. the motor ICC/calibrated profile at best and not calibrated at worst. As far as I know most general purpose monitors (even those for photography) top out somewhere at or slightly better than AdobeRGB color space (~11stops) but all current cameras work with 14-bit/pixel in RAW, which tops out at 14-15 stops DR.
> This gives about 3-4 stops of latitude for editing since most folks export to jpeg.
> Yes, Lightroom/PS can do 16-bit and 32-bit TIFF, where the latter is only useful for HDR stacking. For HDR, 32bit TIFF is great since such files can encode massive color spaces. Unfortunately, we cannot see nor print them.
> In a future, I would love to see a proper sunset on my screen (that is with THE sun in the picture)


That all shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the application of color spaces.

The whole point of larger spaces for use in smaller spaces is so you can move the tonality to where it is needed within the smaller space to prevent posterization and more accurately represent the desired output. LR uses different color spaces in the different modules, in the Develop module it uses a custom version of the ProPhoto color space called Melissa (after one of the chief developers). 

Whilst few printers can print the full sRGB and even fewer Adobe RGB 1998, most can print some colors outside both color spaces, in some instances the printer ink sets far outstretch the smaller 'standard' spaces. 

Here is a gamut comparison, the shaded area is sRGB, the bold areas are my printer/paper profile, see all the saturated blues, greens, reds and oranges? They are outside sRGB and inside my home printer.

Big spaces and bit depths are very important in a workflow if you understand what they are for how to use them and what they do. it is not as simple as 'that is so much bigger than it needs to be so has no practical application' that just displays a lack of understanding of what they are for.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 4, 2020)

mppix said:


> .. and would keep buying them. How would Canon justify and recover the RF R&D costs if they port everything to EF?
> By now they are heavily invested and its highly doubtful that they are selling anywhere close to enough RF equipment, yet.
> Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate but its also a genuine question.


I'm not sure what you are saying. 

Canon is agnostic about mirrorless vs. DSLR. They only care about selling cameras and lenses. If that means selling RF and R models or EF and DSLRs or M lenses and bodies or EF-S lenses and bodies, it doesn't matter. What they do care about is convincing people to buy Canon rather than Nikon, Sony, Fuji etc.

If Canon could have maintained profits without investing a penny into RF lenses and R bodies, they would have. But, the market dictated that they compete, so they are going to compete in a big way. But, as long as customers want DSLRs and EF lenses, they will be happy to make and sell them. 

I don't understand why this is difficult concept for people to wrap their heads around.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 4, 2020)

mppix said:


> .. and would keep buying them. How would Canon justify and recover the RF R&D costs if they port everything to EF?
> By now they are heavily invested and its highly doubtful that they are selling anywhere close to enough RF equipment, yet.
> Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate but its also a genuine question.


I totally agree - one more FF DSLR means a minimum of one less RF lens sale, which means one less lens to amortize the huge develop costs of the RF line. Not the best long term business strategy.

I also doubt there will ever be RF-S cropped line - too expensive, not another lens line! Better to keep RP line (i.e. no IBIS to help keep costs down) with a couple of slower consumer grade zooms as a gateway to the RF ecosystem (I hate that word!).


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2020)

mppix said:


> If this rumor stands without an infinite list of asterisks (and that is a big if), I would not hold my breath for much innovation in the EF system, in particular for a 5DV.




That's the point. They don't need much innovation with the 5D5 -- just jam the R5 internals into a 5D SLR. Done. People will absolutely buy that SLR.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I also doubt there will ever be RF-S cropped line - too expensive, not another lens line! Better to keep RP line (i.e. no IBIS to help keep costs down) with a couple of slower consumer grade zooms as a gateway to the RF ecosystem (I hate that word!).




Nikon: One mount to rule them all. Crop mirrorless lenses work seamlessly on FF mirrorless bodies.

Sony: One mount to rule them all. Crop mirrorless lenses work seamlessly on FF mirrorless bodies.

Canon: We could totally you make an small and light RF body and offer inexpensive crop image circle RF lenses, but nah. Two mirrorless mounts: CHOOSE NOW. And, oh, by the way, you must sell everything you own in EF-M if you want to move up to RF. Thx byeeee.

I'm not in love with crop-image circle lenses, but EF-S works on RF with the adaptor and EF-M doesn't. That's a big deal. RF-S lenses would solve that problem.

- A


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> The whole point of larger spaces for use in smaller spaces is so you can move the tonality to where it is needed within the smaller space to prevent posterization and more accurately represent the desired output. LR uses different color spaces in the different modules, in the Develop module it uses a custom version of the ProPhoto color space called Melissa (after one of the chief developers).



It should be noted that colour space doesn't define the bitness of its RGB or CMY components. A 'smaller' sRGB space may still be represented by 16 bit components.


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## AEWest (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> That's the point. They don't need much innovation with the 5D5 -- just jam the R5 internals into a 5D SLR. Done. People will absolutely buy that SLR.
> 
> - A





ahsanford said:


> Nikon: One mount to rule them all. Crop mirrorless lenses work seamlessly on FF mirrorless bodies.
> 
> Sony: One mount to rule them all. Crop mirrorless lenses work seamlessly on FF mirrorless bodies.
> 
> ...


Canon 2020: one mount to rule them all - RF.

Do you remember when the EF mount was introduced? Did Canon say let's keep making non EOS bodies and lenses for our their faithful FD users? Nope. You either get on the train or you get run over.

As you know, a camera system revolves around the lenses, not the camera bodies which change frequently. Canon will not go with two mounts for much longer. It is not economical.


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## mppix (Feb 4, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> That all shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the application of color spaces.
> 
> The whole point of larger spaces for use in smaller spaces is so you can move the tonality to where it is needed within the smaller space to prevent posterization and more accurately represent the desired output. LR uses different color spaces in the different modules, in the Develop module it uses a custom version of the ProPhoto color space called Melissa (after one of the chief developers).
> 
> ...



Uh, I am probably missing something.
Are you saying exactly repeating what I said, with illustration? 
- monitors and printers top out at or slightly above 8-bit sRGB (monitors refer to as 24bit true color)
- you need a well dialed in workflow to get outside of sRGB
- extra RAW latitude is for editing

The statement on "Melissa RGB" is not falsifiable (at least as far I know), in the sense that (i) Lightroom uses Melissa RGB to show information about the picture during editing but (ii) Lightroom does not use Melissa RGB to compute the final picture. Either way, the picture that appears on the screen is an overlay of Melissa RGB and the operating system's interpretation of the monitors capabilities (ICC or not).

"So the histogram and any colour values you see in Lightroom are based on Melissa RGB. Also the previews in the _Develop_ module also use Melissa RGB, not Adobe RGB."





colourspace.xyz


This domain may be for sale!



www.colourspace.xyz





I tend to only say what I know, not saying what I don't know, and clearly state uncertainties and sources. Still, I have been wrong let me know if needed .. if you don't know, now you know (sorry couldn't resist the last bit =D ).


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

AlanF said:


> It's more charitable to be sympathetic to those who have suffered by being overtaken by events. There but for the grace of god goes AlanF.



It's not that I'm unsympathetic. It's just that it's hard to feel sorry for anyone who thinks lenses are for "investment" instead of for using to take pictures and refuses to listen when warned that "past performance is no guarantee of future results." That's like saying I should sympathize with the gambler who loses a pile on a bet they thought was a "lock." If it was a "lock" it wouldn't be called "gambling." 

They should have known when they speculated on lens values that it could eventually bite them, just as any kind of speculative "investment" can. If you can't afford to lose it, don't risk it. Simple as that.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Technically, buying something in order to be able to use it later as a tool is investment. Not every investment is "value investment". Buying a tool now lets you not spend on renting it later.



That's what accountants call an "expense", not an "investment."

What you are describing is a "capital expense", not a "capital investment."

Investments are things that one can reasonably expect to increase in value apart from their utility during the time they are owned/used.

If I buy a house for $200,000, live in it for ten years, and sell it for $180,000 I've lost money on the "investment", even though the $20,000 I lost on the transaction (plus what I had to spend on upkeep/maintenance) is less than I would have needed to spend on rent to live somewhere else for those ten years.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 4, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> True- but when your the only one providing such an option it's going to cost. Also it would be cheaper for anyone interested in the EF-RF filter adapter to just purchase the standard EF-RF adaptor and just swap between the two. The standard EF-RF adaptor at $99 bucks is cheaper then the 'clear plug'. Also whether this filter system is ideal or not would also depend on what type of lens you're applying a filter to. If filtering a EF 16-35 I'd be more than happy just using standard front mount filters. But if I was a big Tamron 15-30 f/2.8 user than this option would have much more appeal.



For me the cost was worth it, I get a CPL that doesn't interfere with macro flashes and the dust magnet that is the RP sensor stays clean a lot longer. And with most of my macro pictures being f/10, dust spots are really, really noticeable.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> You were wondering how a 14-bit sensor could give more than 14 stops of DR.
> 
> B&W film was a "1-bit sensor". What DR do you think it would be limited to?



Ironically, what we call analog (film) is more digital than the analog thing we call digital (CMOS sensors that measure analog charge values up to hundreds of thousands of electrons).


----------



## AlanF (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> It's not that I'm unsympathetic. It's just that it's hard to feel sorry for anyone who thinks lenses are for "investment" instead of for using to take pictures and refuses to listen when warned that "past performance is no guarantee of future results." That's like saying I should sympathize with the gambler who loses a pile on a bet they thought was a "lock." If it was a "lock" it wouldn't be called "gambling."
> 
> They should have known when they speculated on lens values that it could eventually bite them, just as any kind of speculative "investment" can. If you can't afford to lose it, don't risk it. Simple as that.


This is going on a bit and the discussion should end. They didn’t buy to speculate or make a profit but to spend their money in a way that would be relatively frugal in the long run.


----------



## mppix (Feb 4, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying.
> 
> Canon is agnostic about mirrorless vs. DSLR. They only care about selling cameras and lenses. If that means selling RF and R models or EF and DSLRs or M lenses and bodies or EF-S lenses and bodies, it doesn't matter. What they do care about is convincing people to buy Canon rather than Nikon, Sony, Fuji etc.
> 
> ...



In my experience that is not how tech companies operate but it will be fun to see it play out.
Do you really think they'd put a 12fps in a 5DV? 
That's 1DX territory for mirrorbox and AF/IR sensor..


----------



## AlanF (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Ironically, what we call analog (film) is more digital than the analog thing we call digital (CMOS sensors that measure analog charge values up to hundreds of thousands of electrons).


It’s all ultimately digital, even “analog” - quantum theory.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Best to Clarify whether we mean Canon will cease to make NEW EF glass vs. Canon will cease all existing production. Both will happen. But two phases.
> 
> Canon has already signaled clearly that few if any NEW EF glass in development. Maybe a few tweaks on some of the Great Whites as EF bodies will long be in use for a big pro segment. How do we know? Brand new 50L came out after many many years of people waiting for an upgrade. It came out for RF. Hope no one is holding their breath for an EF counterpart. What about a 24-70f2.8 L IS for EF? Nope. Not gonna happen.
> 
> Canon will finish cranking out their current EF production schedule and let the stock slowly dwindle down to nothing and move full tilt into RF. And yes this will take several years.



Your argument seems to assume both EF and RF are equally mature systems. They are not. Canon has sold over 100 million EF EOS cameras and 130 million EF/EF-S/TS-E/MP-E lenses. Many of those cameras and their users are still out there taking photos.

As long as there is sufficient demand for EF lenses, Canon will continue to crank out more of those fully mature current designs to meet that demand. If stock drops enough while specific models are still selling well, they'll continue to make more of them.



PureClassA said:


> And as soon as the RF Crop bodies start emerging, the EFM line will be killed off in the same fashion. As keeping the M line makes no sense with RF out there. Notice how few M lenses Canon has bothered to develop? Once the FF RF lens family gets fleshed out, the RF-S (like EF-S crop) will start up.



The reason Canon hasn't made more EF-M lenses has nothing to do with the introduction of RF. It has to do with what lenses will sell in sufficient numbers to those who purchase EF-M cameras. *As long as the EF-M system is the best selling mirrorless camera system on the planet, it's not going anywhere.* They don't _need_ any more EF-M lenses. They're selling plenty of EF-M cameras just fine, thank you, with the lenses they already have. Those lenses are all that 95% of EF-M camera users want.

It should be fairly obvious that Canon is not aiming for the same market segment with the EF-M line that they are going for with the RF line. Otherwise they would not have made it impossible to use RF glass on EF-M bodies.


----------



## mppix (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Your argument seems to assume both EF and RF are equally mature systems. They are not. Canon has sold over 100 million EF EOS cameras and 130 million EF/EF-S/TS-E/MP-E lenses. Many of those cameras and their users are still out there taking photos.
> 
> As long as there is sufficient demand for EF lenses, Canon will continue to crank out more of those fully mature current designs to meet that demand. If stock drops enough while specific models are still selling well, they'll continue to make more of them.



And all of these lenses work on RF. Not sure if we see many new lenses with possible exception of big-whites.
If you want to convince birders you could offer a mount convertible version like EF or RF+integrated 1.4x. (.. can you fit an extender in 22mm?).


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> [..]
> Canon: We could totally you make an small and light RF body and offer inexpensive crop image circle RF lenses, but nah. Two mirrorless mounts: CHOOSE NOW. And, oh, by the way, you must sell everything you own in EF-M if you want to move up to RF. Thx byeeee.
> [..]



Is there some space/time continuum hazard if you keep your EF-M gear while buying RF gear? I hope not, since I didn't sell my EF-M gear


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Once Canon has all RF bodies at the sports sidelines and in the press hands as they dominate now with the DSLR then you will see the DSLR fade out fairly rapidly. The same way you saw film disappear.



When film disappeared those sports shooters and press photographers - or more accurately, the agencies who employed them as staff photographers - were by far the largest group of advanced ("pro") camera buyers. Due to the collapse of print media and the "freelance-ation" of the rest of media, that is no longer the case.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

brad-man said:


> I think it's worth considering that Canon produced and inventoried enough EF cameras and lenses they deemed necessary to last a year or two or three before switching the production lines over to RF. They have deep enough pockets to allow for such a move...



They switch production lines over all of the time. It's not like once they start making RF cameras on a specific line they can never again make any other EF cameras on that line. It's not a lot different from making a run of 800D bodies, then making a run of 5D Mark IV bodies, then making a few 7D mark II bodies, then making a run of 2000D/4000D bodies, etc.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> It can be, but for that, effing Canon needs at least to add (and publish) effing "power on" command to its effing BLE camera control protocol.
> 
> What killed film was not image quality and not body lineup, but workflow. Mirrorless has a similar potential for workflow improvements, but it's currently mostly unusable because the manufacturers don't understand what they miss.



What killed film was the cost per frame of film versus digital and the instant feedback of digital. Once digital got remotely close to film quality, the cost advantage pushed everything over the edge. Sure, part of that was workflow and the time someone had to spend in a darkroom, but for press agencies it was ultimately about the bottom line: Which system costs less per 10,000 images? For consumers it was the instant feedback with digital.


----------



## AlanF (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That's what accountants call an "expense", not an "investment."
> 
> What you are describing is a "capital expense", not a "capital investment."
> 
> ...


_In an economic sense, an *investment* is the purchase of goods that are not consumed today but are used in the future to create wealth. In finance, an *investment* is a monetary asset purchased with the idea that the asset will provide income in the future or will later be sold at a higher price for a profit. (investopedia). _A professional photographer will invest in his or her gear to make a profit. At the end of its use to him or her, the price it is sold for will affect the overall wealth created, but is should still be a profitable investment even if sold at a loss. If you had rented out that house for $20,000 p.a. for ten years, and lost $20,000 on its purchase price, it would still have been a profitable investment.

An old meaning of investment is: _the surrounding of a place by a hostile force in order to besiege or blockade it_. This discussion is beginning to resemble the archaic meaning.


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## Kit. (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That's what accountants call an "expense", not an "investment."


In economics (if you are a business), it is called "fixed investment".



Michael Clark said:


> Investments are things that one can reasonably expect to increase in value apart from their utility during the time they are owned/used.


And this is called "value investment".


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Ironically, what we call analog (film) is more digital than the analog thing we call digital (CMOS sensors that measure analog charge values up to hundreds of thousands of electrons).


In terms of the electronic circuits, the film is neither analog nor digital. In terms of the output signal after processing, film responds as an 'analog' media. There's no way to read each silver halide crystal as an actual digital bit and use its value in the electronics.

Anyway this argument is irrelevant to what was discussed. I explained it several times, last time in this post.


----------



## Alex784 (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> In economics (if you are a business), it is called "fixed investment".
> 
> And this is called "value investment".



I am not a specialist in economics, but would it make sense for a business to announce a better and cheaper product, which includes the latest technology included in its flagship product, even before starting to sell its flagship product ?


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> The top retailers already do this. And it’s 30 days with free shipping both ways. 60 days if you pay for the VIP plan. Much cheaper than CPS but appropriate only for when you really plan to keep it if you like it. I switched to Canon last year after testing the RP and sending it back, then again when I was more committed. They even pay shipping both ways unlike CPS.
> 
> I’m taking heat for this on another thread but wouldn’t be a Canon owner without it.



CPS Platinum does pay shipping both ways.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I totally agree - one more FF DSLR means a minimum of one less RF lens sale, which means one less lens to amortize the huge develop costs of the RF line. Not the best long term business strategy.
> 
> I also doubt there will ever be RF-S cropped line - too expensive, not another lens line! Better to keep RP line (i.e. no IBIS to help keep costs down) with a couple of slower consumer grade zooms as a gateway to the RF ecosystem (I hate that word!).



Canon can just as easily amortize development costs of RF lenses with the larger profit margin they make when selling mature EF lenses, which have long since recovered the R&D costs associated with them, as they can by selling an RF lens. Revenue is revenue. Yen are yen.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Canon 2020: one mount to rule them all - RF.
> 
> Do you remember when the EF mount was introduced? Did Canon say let's keep making non EOS bodies and lenses for our their faithful FD users? Nope. You either get on the train or you get run over.
> 
> As you know, a camera system revolves around the lenses, not the camera bodies which change frequently. Canon will not go with two mounts for much longer. It is not economical.



Have you ever considered the possibility that:

1) The transition from all mechanical FD to all electronic EF forced Canon to choose not to make them backwards compatible in 1987? (Yet even then, Canon kept on selling FD lenses and bodies for another half decade until 1992.) History has shown that it was the right choice for Canon. It put them at #1 for the first time in history, where they have stayed for the past two and one half decades.

2) Canon may have learned something from the FD to EF transition and are using that knowledge now?

3) You're so bitter because of your own experience during the FD to EF transition that you can't look at this with a clear eye?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Canon can just as easily amortize development costs of RF lenses with the larger profit margin they make when selling mature EF lenses, which have long since recovered the R&D costs associated with them, as they can by selling an RF lens. Revenue is revenue. Yen are yen.



This is how it happens in huge bureaucratic companies like Canon. There would be a marketing department with smart guys in it. They'd prepare a report with beautiful slides and exact calculations on what would be sold and what should be developed. Then a very big guy would carefully listen to the presentation, nod affirmatively, and pay marketing guys big bonuses. And then he would take final decisions totally unrelated to the smart calculated predictions.

There's a lot of bureaucracy and internal politics involved and you'll never know for sure why Canon makes one decision or another.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

AlanF said:


> This is going on a bit and the discussion should end. They didn’t buy to speculate or make a profit but to spend their money in a way that would be relatively frugal in the long run.



My point is: anyone who spends what an EF 300mm f/2.8 L (in any version) cost when new should know that they may not "get their money back" after they've used it for a while. "Frugal" is making do with a lesser lens, not spending $5K on a lens because in the past others have been able to get all or most of that money back when they sold theirs. Anyone with that kind of money should _know_ that "past results are no guarantee of future performance."


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

mppix said:


> And all of these lenses work on RF. Not sure if we see many new lenses with possible exception of big-whites.
> If you want to convince birders you could offer a mount convertible version like EF or RF+integrated 1.4x. (.. can you fit an extender in 22mm?).



Where did I say anything whatsoever about new EF lens models? I said Canon will continue to sell and, if necessary, manufacture more copies of _existing_ EF lens designs.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

AlanF said:


> It’s all ultimately digital, even “analog” - quantum theory.



Maybe, but quantum mechanics is more than "binary", which is what we usually mean when we say "digital."


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## Kit. (Feb 4, 2020)

Alex784 said:


> I am not a specialist in economics, but would it make sense for a business to announce a better and cheaper product, which includes the latest technology included in its flagship product, even before starting to sell its flagship product ?


1DX series is hardly a "flagship" in terms of revenues.


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## UlricWolf (Feb 4, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> It was for me. Inside the store, it was WAY brighter than the store.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reading all this I clearly see that You have no clue and You havent actually used a camera (because few of the stuff You are writing is complete nonsense and out of this world) Maybe You have, but for, maybe, few test situations and few minutes. Good luck then with Your DSLRs. Im not returning to those old sh*ts.


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## AlanF (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Maybe, but quantum mechanics is more than "binary", which is what we usually mean when we say "digital."


Digital can be to any base, not just to base 2 as in binary. The point is that ultimately an analog signal is composed of discrete quanta.


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## Joules (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> That's the point. They don't need much innovation with the 5D5 -- just jam the R5 internals into a 5D SLR. Done. People will absolutely buy that SLR.
> 
> - A


There's not much innovation needed, as that has been already done for the 1DX III. But there may be new components needed, that make it more difficult to create a 5D V than an R5 with the rumored R5 specs.

Namely, the R5 doesn't have a mirror assembly and doesn't have a specialized focusing sensor. If the 5D V will employ the same innovations seen in the 1DX III, one would expect the mechanically coupled mirror assembly and a Cmos based AF sensor to be included. If that's not the case, and they stick with the traditional parts, they may have trouble matching the LiveView AF performance at 12 FPS.

And if they go with the new designs, reusing the same parts as the 1DX III uses sounds like a good way to spread cost, but on the other hands those parts are highly specialized and may add more cost than reusing them saves. In any case, it will add more cost compared to the R5. I don't think a 5D V will be as easy as just putting in the R5 in a different shell. Simply because in terms of parts, the sum of all R5 parts should result in an incomplete DSLR body. And supplementing the rest with legacy components from the 5D IV may result in poor performance.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

AlanF said:


> _In an economic sense, an *investment* is the purchase of goods that are not consumed today but are used in the future to create wealth. In finance, an *investment* is a monetary asset purchased with the idea that the asset will provide income in the future or will later be sold at a higher price for a profit. (investopedia). _A professional photographer will invest in his or her gear to make a profit. At the end of its use to him or her, the price it is sold for will affect the overall wealth created, but is should still be a profitable investment even if sold at a loss. If you had rented out that house for $20,000 p.a. for ten years, and lost $20,000 on its purchase price, it would still have been a profitable investment.
> 
> An old meaning of investment is: _the surrounding of a place by a hostile force in order to besiege or blockade it_. This discussion is beginning to resemble the archaic meaning.



I agree with the investopedia definition. It says exactly what I'm contending. But I do not agree with your interpretation of it in what follows that definition. By your application, every roll of film a photographer bought to shoot a wedding with would have been an investment. So would the gas she bought yesterday to get to the gig tomorrow. Those are expenses, not investments. For a commodities trader that buys and sells bulk gasoline futures, gas is an investment. For a photographer putting gas in her car to get to a gig, it's an expense. A proper understanding of the investopedia definition should make that perfectly clear.

Maybe I'm a little too press/media centric when it comes to who I consider to be a "professional photographer", but for the most part with regard to cameras and lenses, by the end of use for those folks there wasn't much of anything left to sell. The idea that most true pros use their equipment so infrequently that they sell it in 8+ or 9 condition is laughable to me. Most of the pros I know use it until it falls apart. The guys with high paying day jobs that dabble in photography on the weekends are the ones constantly buying and selling gear, and never making enough from photography to cover what they spend on it.

My PJ friends used lenses until they broke and couldn't be fixed anymore (because Canon or Nikon no longer had parts). They tended to "leapfrog" body models - half or fewer of their bodies got replaced each time a new model came out, then the other half (or less) got replaced for the next model. So, for example, the top photog at my local paper would be shooting with a D5 and using a D3s as a second body, the second guy would have a D4 and a D3s. The third guy would have a D4 and the best remaining D3. Sometimes they still wore one completely out before the next model was introduced. If one of the bodies wore out before the top guy got a new D6 when it debuted, they'd buy another D5 and play hand me down. The old D3 that mostly worked and D2X bodies would still be in the storage cabinet for when a regular reporter occasionally needed a body or for when one of the main bodies were at Nikon getting worked on.


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## Kit. (Feb 4, 2020)

AlanF said:


> It’s all ultimately digital, even “analog” - quantum theory.


It's all ultimately Bayesian... or at least so our current state of knowledge tells us.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> In economics (if you are a business), it is called "fixed investment".



From the linked Wiki definition above:

The term "fixed investment" may be somewhat ambiguous, because it could refer to the value of a _stock_ of fixed assets being held at a balance date, or as in economics, to the value of a _flow of expenditures_ on fixed assets across an accounting interval, such as a year. The distinction is not always clearly stated in statistical tabulations—they might refer either to the stock of capital tied up in fixed assets at a balance date, or to how much was spent on fixed equipment during a quarter or year.

Which means that for all practical purposes, what are called fixed investments are just as easily called long-term expenses (i.e "flow of expenditures").



Kit. said:


> And this is called "value investment".



Of course it is.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> It's all ultimately Bayesian... or at least so our current state of knowledge tells us.



If we can ever stop insisting on thinking that linear time exists at the quantum level, it would allow for far more certainty.


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## Kit. (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I agree with the investopedia definition. It says exactly what I'm contending. But I do not agree with your interpretation of it in what follows that definition. By your application, every roll of film a photographer bought to shoot a wedding with would have been an investment. So would the gas she bought yesterday to get to the gig tomorrow.


In macroeconomics, it's called "inventory investment".

Although, macroeconomics typically works with time scales that are longer than "overnight". If you buy a stock of discontinued film and put it into a freezer to use for years to come, that's an investment even if you won't try to resell it unshot.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> In macroeconomics, it's called "inventory investment".
> 
> Although, macroeconomics typically works with time scales that are longer than "overnight". If you buy a stock of discontinued film and put it into a freezer to use for years to come, that's an investment even if you won't try to resell it unshot.



But again, what companies spend on inventory investment is just another way of saying expenses incurred today for consumables used in the future. *No one expects to sell such unused inventory at a later date for a profit or a zero net loss.* They might wind up selling it in the future for pennies on the dollar if they need to raise cash and their business is using less of a particular consumable commodity than they anticipated when they purchased it.

So the idea that I can buy a $5K lens, use it for three or four years, and sell it for near the same price I paid is not an example of "inventory investment." It's an example of someone seeing a "value investment" where one doesn't really exist.


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## Optics Patent (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> CPS Platinum does pay shipping both ways.



That wasn’t evident from my first loan but I will certainly investigate. Thanks for the tip.


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## Kit. (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> But again, what companies spend on inventory investment is just another way of saying expenses incurred today for consumables used in the future. *No one expects to sell such unused inventory at a later date for a profit or a zero net loss.* They might wind up selling it in the future for pennies on the dollar if they need to raise cash and their business is using less of a particular consumable commodity than they anticipated when they purchased it.
> 
> So the idea that I can buy a $5K lens, use it for three or four years, and sell it for near the same price I paid is not an example of "inventory investment." It's an example of someone seeing a "value investment" where one doesn't really exist.


If someone thinks that "investment" is only something that could be resold as a whole at a later date, they are wrong.

For example, isn't a college degree an investment (we are not talking about how good or bad this investment is)? In my case, I haven't even spent money on it (in fact, I was earning a stipend), only time.

So, for me, my lenses are an investment as well, even if I don't expect to ever sell them.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> If someone thinks that "investment" is only something that could be resold as a whole at a later date, they are wrong.
> 
> For example, isn't a college degree an investment (we are not talking about how good or bad this investment is)? In my case, I haven't even spent money on it (in fact, I was earning a stipend), only time.
> 
> So, for me, my lenses are an investment as well, even if I don't expect to ever sell them.



Your lenses may be an "investment" to you, but they are not a value investment.

As for a college degree, the admissions office recruiter will certain tell you it's an investment. A used car salesman will also tell you the lemon he's trying to sell you for way too much money is an investment. That doesn't mean it is, though.


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## BillB (Feb 4, 2020)

mppix said:


> .. and would keep buying them. How would Canon justify and recover the RF R&D costs if they port everything to EF?
> By now they are heavily invested and its highly doubtful that they are selling anywhere close to enough RF equipment, yet.
> Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate but its also a genuine question.


The devil may well be in the details on this one. People can buy an RF lens, buy an EF lens, buy neither, or buy both. One question is how much EF lens sales will cut into RF sales. Another is how long EF lens sales can cover the cost of EF production, even considering the loss of RF sales because of the availability of EF lenses. I am ok leaving it to Canon to figure this out.


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## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2020)

Joules said:


> There's not much innovation needed, as that has been already done for the 1DX III. But there may be new components needed, that make it more difficult to create a 5D V than an R5 with the rumored R5 specs.




I didn't say _work_ isn't required.  Sure, Canon has to choose between leveraging existing 1-/5-series tech and coming up with something new. But Canon can absolutely Frankenstein together a compelling optical powertrain from their considerable experience and prior designs.

I'm just saying that a 5D5 doesn't require an innovation committee. It's a 5D -- small thoughtful changes externally are all that are needed while more horsepower is piled on internally. That camera is not a difficult one to envision or deliver, IMHO.

Perhaps the key quesiton with the 5D5 is not 'if?' but 'when?'. Perhaps Canon will leave a healthy chunk of time between R5 and 5D5 release to get folks to buy both, get more folks jumping in to RF sooner, etc.

- A


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## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> *As long as the EF-M system is the best selling mirrorless camera system on the planet, it's not going anywhere.*




But what's best for EOS M sales (i.e. sticking EF-M) may not be what's best for RF body sales.

EF-M glass doesn't work on RF bodies, and Canon could fix that without eliminating why folks love EOS M:

Start putting out inexpensive RF-S (crop image circle RF) lenses
Offer a few tiny RF mount bodies with crop sensors (R50, R500 if you will) at Rebel like prices. In effect, Canon would offer tiny EOS M bodies with RF mounts.
Ramp down EOS M and EF-M production once this new line of small RF crop bodies and RF-S lenses cover the same bases as EOS M and EF-M lenses do today (that won't take long, there only ~ 10 lenses and a few bodies)
And then it's one mount to rule them all.

It might take a few years, but the future state of one mount that receives all lenses simply makes more sense. 

- A


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## Kit. (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> As for a college degree, the admissions office recruiter will certain tell you it's an investment.


To be honest, I was going there to spend most of my college time in Alferov's lab. Which worked, but wasn't the only benefit.

Have no regrets at all.


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## scyrene (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> hens cackling. They need to get a room or at least a ring to duke it out.



I'm enjoying it! *Munches popcorn*


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## Optics Patent (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> CPS Platinum does pay shipping both ways.



From the CPS website: "_The CPS Member is responsible for all return shipping costs_."


----------



## AEWest (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Have you ever considered the possibility that:
> 
> 1) The transition from all mechanical FD to all electronic EF forced Canon to choose not to make them backwards compatible in 1987? (Yet even then, Canon kept on selling FD lenses and bodies for another half decade until 1992.)
> 
> ...



I believe we are violently agreeing! I have also said that EF would be phased out, and most here realize that EF is in the downward part of the product life cycle. It is just the slope of that down ward cycle that we disagree on - and not even Canon knows for sure. I'm sure they want it as steep as possible, that would mean that RF is a resounding success with the new cameras and lenses flying off the shelves. Then they could discontinue production of equivalent EF lenses much sooner.

1) Canon did sell FD cameras and lenses afterward, but they did not come out with new bodies for FD or new lenses. They were definitely all in on EF. Many people here are still hoping that EF cameras will continue, but that would seriously interefere with the adoption of RF and hence flattening that slope - not in Canon's best interest. 

2) The sudden switch to EF actually helped them to free from their legacy system and and take over a large part of the pro market within 5 years that previously had been owned by Nikon. 

3) I am not bitter about the transition. I got over it last year!


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## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> From the CPS website: "_The CPS Member is responsible for all return shipping costs_."




CPS Platinum loaners and repairs get free shipping both ways, but I'm not sure about returns of purchases.

- A


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## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I believe we are violently agreeing! I have also said that EF would be phased out, and most here realize that EF is in the downward part of the product life cycle. It is just the slope of that down ward cycle that we disagree on - and not even Canon knows for sure. I'm sure they want it as steep as possible, that would mean that RF is a resounding success with the new cameras and lenses flying off the shelves. Then they could discontinue production of equivalent EF lenses much sooner.




I 100% agree with everything above.

Where we've disagreed on this thread is the slope of that downward EF usage, as you pointed out.

1) What Canon wants for maximum profit (pull out the rug ASAP, shut down EF aggressively)
2) What Canon can force EF users into doing prematurely (what Canon is probably going to do)
3) What EF users unreasonably want (EF in perpetuity, new EF lenses, etc.)

...are absolutely 3 different things. I simply contend that Canon will be 'impatient, but kind' to the horses that got them here. I still see the EF exodus taking some time for fear of angering its longtime users.

- A


----------



## richperson (Feb 4, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> Reality is a bitch isn't it!



I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Maybe you could clarify.


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## AEWest (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> If someone thinks that "investment" is only something that could be resold as a whole at a later date, they are wrong.
> 
> For example, isn't a college degree an investment (we are not talking about how good or bad this investment is)? In my case, I haven't even spent money on it (in fact, I was earning a stipend), only time.
> 
> So, for me, my lenses are an investment as well, even if I don't expect to ever sell them.


If an asset is purchased in order to help generate revenue it is an investment. If the asset loses value over time, then you have a depreciation (or in accounting parlance amortization) expense that you deduct from revenue. However the asset is still an investment.


----------



## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

I'm so glad it only took 75 pages for the R5 thread to segue into a lesson on semantics


----------



## scyrene (Feb 4, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I [...] don't print images to view them at a certain distance...



Surely you do, or at least a range of distances. Whether you're hanging them on a wall, or looking at them in a book, you're viewing them from a certain distance, probably more than a few inches and less than a hundred feet


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## jeffa4444 (Feb 4, 2020)

If 85% of the specs are true I will be trading-in my EOS R for the EOS R5 and it would reduce my 5DS to a back-up camera. I would also certainly be replacing my holy trinity to RF from EF.


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## AEWest (Feb 4, 2020)

jeffa4444 said:


> If 85% of the specs are true I will be trading-in my EOS R for the EOS R5 and it would reduce my 5DS to a back-up camera. I would also certainly be replacing my holy trinity to RF from EF.


Since you are already a mirrorless user, how did you find the switch from OVF to EVF? I did look at the R but only in a store, so I have no real world experience.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 4, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> That wasn’t evident from my first loan but I will certainly investigate. Thanks for the tip.


Perhaps an eager retailer covered the shipping cost that wasn't covered under Canon policy.


----------



## mppix (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I 100% agree with everything above.
> 
> Where we've disagreed on this thread is the slope of that downward EF usage, as you pointed out.
> 
> ...



I think a canon would not "shut down EF aggressively" but "bring up RF aggressively", which is vert different. I'd expect more an EF maintenance mode, i.e. just let it be what it is with minor tweaks if needed, rather than heavy back-porting of innovation. Just my 2cents.
I think we can all agree here that a 5Div is a perfectly fine tool for the years to come, just not latest and greatest.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 4, 2020)

mppix said:


> I think a canon would not "shut down EF aggressively" but "bring up RF aggressively", which is vert different. I'd expect more an EF maintenance mode, i.e. just let it be what it is with minor tweaks if needed, rather than heavy back-porting of innovation. Just my 2cents.
> I think we can all agree here that a 5Div is a perfectly fine tool for the years to come, just not latest and greatest.


Agree on the current 5D4 being great, particularly for stills. 

The question that each person who is looking to buy a new camera has to answer to himself or herself is can it meet my needs in the future? Will I miss out too much on the new RF glass that is here and coming soon or is the existing EF glass more than sufficient? Will I get into video or am I sticking to stills? Also, knowing that the EF line is on the down cycle, am I paying the right price for this camera or should I be getting a larger discount?


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> The question that each person who is looking to buy a new camera has to answer to himself or herself is can it meet my needs in the future? Will I miss out too much on the new RF glass that is here and coming soon or is the existing EF glass more than sufficient? Will I get into video or am I sticking to stills? Also, knowing that the EF line is on the down cycle, am I paying the right price for this camera or should I be getting a larger discount?




Sure, but for every answer to your question that says 'bite the bullet and move to RF to future proof my world', there are takeaways. Consider a current 5D4 owner sizing up a move to an R5:

Will EF really go away during the 4-5 years I will use this new body?
Will I miss my OVF, the responsiveness, etc.?
Will I go through a painful migration (to mirrorless and the control set in general) in a new R5 only to see a 5D5 come out with the same specs at some point?
I think the R5 specs will flip a lot of 5D3 holdouts and current 5D4 users, don't get me wrong. But I think a 5D5 with similar specs will happen.

- A


----------



## BillB (Feb 4, 2020)

slclick said:


> I'm so glad it only took 75 pages for the R5 thread to segue into a lesson on semantics


Actually we were into semantic a while ago.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Sure, but for every answer to your question that says 'bite the bullet and move to RF to future proof my world', there are takeaways. Consider a current 5D4 owner sizing up a move to an R5:
> 
> Will EF really go away during the 4-5 years I will use this new body?
> Will I miss my OVF, the responsiveness, etc.?
> ...


Only Canon knows for sure!


----------



## SteveC (Feb 4, 2020)

As of now, I don't own a full frame of any type, and this looks like the one I want to start with. (Which at least eliminates the issue of whether to transition away from a 5D of some sort.)

Knowing I wanted to go full frame someday, I've avoided EF-S lenses (yes, I know they work on R mounts--but if that's what I have, what's the point of a full frame camera?) for the last year or so--but have bought EF lenses.

It'll just be a matter of the R5's price. I probably won't be one of the first-day buyers!


----------



## Kit. (Feb 4, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> During the last few pages we didn't even touch that topic.


Actually, we are still trying to help you understand what dynamic range is.



Quarkcharmed said:


> And no, 14-bit sensor can't produce a raw file with more than 14 stops of DR.


I'm sure you would be surprised to learn that it's actually_15_ stops of DR you are talking about.

To be precise, log2((2¹⁴-1.5)/0.5) stops of DR.



Quarkcharmed said:


> Moreover you don't get additional DR by simple downsampling. You need to convert to 16 or 32 bits, then downsample.


Is it even a thing - downsampling in 14 bits?



Quarkcharmed said:


> But that's not the original file and most importantly not the original resolution is it? I think the DR at native resolution is also important, or per-pixel DR before any conversions.


The question is: if the DR at 45Mpix or 60Mpix resolution is important to you, how are you going to get it from a 30Mpix sensor?



Quarkcharmed said:


> If you convert it to digital (by scanning), you'll get a 16-bit image and will be able to calculate the DR. If you don't want to convert it, you use analog methods to calculate S/N.


If you convert it on a scanner with the resolution enough to resolve single silver grains (which are submicronic in size, so you will need a 100k+ DPI scanner), you will get a binary image. You can convert it into 8, 14, 16, 24, 32, 48, 64, or whatever number of bits per pixel you want, but it will be binary.

If you are scanning it with your usual 4.8k DPI scanner, you are using analog methods to downsample it.



Quarkcharmed said:


> You'd probably need to normalise both film and digital in order to compare, if you want to compare film and digital. Neither of imaginable comparison methods will involve converting film crystals into 1-bit pixels. Most likely you'll figure out the resolution of the film first and then you'll get a number of "1-bit crystals" per resolving unit area, not just one bit. But the crystals in film are not laid out in a nice regular 2D grid, they're stacked and overlap in 3D. Overall this comparison of film to 1-bit sensor is fallacious.


Such digital 1-bit-per-pixel sensors are already proposed.


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## AEWest (Feb 4, 2020)

SteveC said:


> As of now, I don't own a full frame of any type, and this looks like the one I want to start with. (Which at least eliminates the issue of whether to transition away from a 5D of some sort.)
> 
> Knowing I wanted to go full frame someday, I've avoided EF-S lenses (yes, I know they work on R mounts--but if that's what I have, what's the point of a full frame camera?) for the last year or so--but have bought EF lenses.
> 
> It'll just be a matter of the R5's price. I probably won't be one of the first-day buyers!



I expect that for me the R5 will be too expensive and will go R6 instead.


----------



## SteveC (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I expect that for me the R5 will be too expensive and will go R6 instead.



I'm getting the impression the R6 isn't just a cheaper (somewhat less feature rich) version of the R5, but has a heavier emphasis on video. 

I do shoot video from time to time...e.g., at a zoo, I take stills and if the animal is doing something interesting I'll try to capture it, but I'll probably never do anything remotely "professional" looking on video.

Nevertheless, it'll certainly be an option.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Your argument seems to assume both EF and RF are equally mature systems. They are not. Canon has sold over 100 million EF EOS cameras and 130 million EF/EF-S/TS-E/MP-E lenses. Many of those cameras and their users are still out there taking photos.
> 
> As long as there is sufficient demand for EF lenses, Canon will continue to crank out more of those fully mature current designs to meet that demand. If stock drops enough while specific models are still selling well, they'll continue to make more of them.
> 
> ...



The issue remains that at some point over the next several years, the economies of scale will take a foothold. If Canon is moving its focus to MILC going forward (seems clear they are) then continuing to produce new model EF lenses becomes self defeating. And continuing to produce large caches of existing models will be the same. Yes they have sold 100M units but the market is altering and they only have so much production capacity to go around. If they are going to slow down and then cease production of DSLRs over the next 5 years (certainly looks like they are with perhaps 1-2 exceptions like a 5D5), then it makes no sense investing in a bunch of new EF glass R&D and production. For what EF glass remains in use (a LOT) you can grab an RF adapter and slap it on your new RF camera.

So far as the M series, again, yes it's the best selling one. Right NOW. Again, any company has to allocate its limited R&D and production resources, not to mention Canon prefers to give customers as easy an upgrade path as possible. Therefore, as RF-S crop bodies come out in the next few years, don't be surprised to see the EFM models wound down as well. Why have two MILC Crop body eco-systems, when one of which has no upgrade capacity to higher level L glass? Why would Canon not prefer to have those M customers buy into new RF-S instead of EFM where they can buy (once Canon starts producing them) compact RF bodies similar in size to current M bodies with cheap RF-S glass and the ability to move UP into even more? Of course, IF Canon cant/wont make an RF-S body as compact as the M line now, different story, but I don't see why they couldn't get very similar sizes even with the RF mount being a bit bigger

The M system has an 18 mm flange distance (compared to 44 mm for EF and EF-S) and a 47 mm throat diameter. The RF mount's flange distance at 20 mm, and a throat diameter of 54mm (same as EF) 

Will that 7mm throat difference and 2mm flange distance be enough to keep the EF-M? I don't know, but Seems unlikely. That's why I see eventually Canon phasing out the M. Again, economies of scale. If I'm Canon I would want to try and unify as much production as possible IF that unification can satisfy the entire range of products customers want to buy. Remember the M line was Canon's toying with the compact MILC market to offer a choice between that and the already popular Rebels (particularly the SL line). The new T8 and 90D may well be the last of their APS-C DSLRs too. 2-3 years from now, we will have crop RF bodies for the $500 range coming with kit 18-55mm RF-S glass that could easily replace the Rebel AND M lines


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 4, 2020)

SteveC said:


> As of now, I don't own a full frame of any type, and this looks like the one I want to start with. (Which at least eliminates the issue of whether to transition away from a 5D of some sort.)
> 
> Knowing I wanted to go full frame someday, I've avoided EF-S lenses (yes, I know they work on R mounts--but if that's what I have, what's the point of a full frame camera?) for the last year or so--but have bought EF lenses.
> 
> It'll just be a matter of the R5's price. I probably won't be one of the first-day buyers!



Look to the R6 then. That is going to be one HELL of Full Frame camera for what may well turn out to be $1500 price range. My DX2 is the same 20MP and I use if for the bulk of my work. Coming up from where you are, I dont see the R5 being worth the extra (maybe) $2000. You would be much better off investing that $2000 in L glass. What lenses in EF do you have now?


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I expect that for me the R5 will be too expensive and will go R6 instead.



Yeah, I'm betting that R6 is gonna sell like crazy if comes in around $1500-$1800, which if they want to compete with the A7 line, then BANG. If they want to compete with the A7S line then they can stretch it up to closer to $2500+ provided they put some nice video features in there. 

I think the 30MP EOS R is about the perfect balance for resolution and I really like mine, short of the 4k crop. 45MP for routine work is just overkill for me. I'd love to see an EOS R MkII with the same sensor size as now but with IBIS... but that ain't gonna happen ;-) We will have a choice of either 20 or 45 and then 100...


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## PureClassA (Feb 4, 2020)

Alex784 said:


> I am not a specialist in economics, but would it make sense for a business to announce a better and cheaper product, which includes the latest technology included in its flagship product, even before starting to sell its flagship product ?



The market for the 1DX3 is completely different. We want larger more durable workhorse machines that can basically run into hell and back and keep working. There's a lot more going on in that line than just the same sensor as the R6 or even the FPS. A 1DX everyday pro user is not going to look at the R6 and say "I'll just get that instead"

No worries, Canon knows what its doing ;-)


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## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

BillB said:


> Actually we were into semantic a while ago.


Well, that's just a matter of semantics


----------



## unfocused (Feb 4, 2020)

I don't understand why so many people get worked up at the suggestion that Canon's DSLR and R lines can coexist indefinitely. It's like people think there can only be one true god and everyone who believes otherwise is a heretic. It's not a religion, it's a business and businesses make what sells. 

Maybe at some point in the future, the economics of making two different styles of cameras won't work. But they work now and the cost of continuing both formats is certainly less than the cost of developing a new format. Canon has already made the significant front-end investments to bring their mirrorless system to market. The cost of future improvements to both the R and DSLR lines are incremental now. 

I like the R. I use it most of the time. But there are some things that DSLRs simply are better at than mirrorless. Maybe Canon will close that gap and when that happens, DLSRs might fade away. But, as a user of both formats, I have to say there are still a lot of advantages to DSLRs and I'm not optimistic that Canon can erase those differences in a single generation or two -- if ever. And, there are people who simply like DSLRs. Do you really think Canon is not going to go after those customers? 

As far as the EOS lens line goes, *one* Canon executive has said they aren't *currently* planning new lenses. And, in that same statement he said that if customer demand is there, they will offer new lenses. The last several new EOS lenses have been modest generational tweaks. No reason on earth they wouldn't continue to do that if it means selling lenses.

Canon saw they were losing a chunk of the shrinking market to mirrorless, so they jumped into that market. They've never said they were transitioning from DSLRs to Mirrorless. They want to make the pie bigger, not force everyone to eat only apple pie even if some prefer peach pie. 

Whatever Canon makes in the future, I'm going to evaluate it according to what meets my needs. If it's a DSLR, I may buy that. If it's mirrorless, I may buy that. I am allowed to own both and Canon is allowed to sell both. Get over it.


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## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I don't understand why so many people get worked up at the suggestion that Canon's DSLR and R lines can coexist indefinitely. It's like people think there can only be one true god and everyone who believes otherwise is a heretic. It's not a religion, it's a business and businesses make what sells.
> 
> Maybe at some point in the future, the economics of making two different styles of cameras won't work. But they work now and the cost of continuing both formats is certainly less than the cost of developing a new format. Canon has already made the significant front-end investments to bring their mirrorless system to market. The cost of future improvements to both the R and DSLR lines are incremental now.
> 
> ...



Well said. The 1DX3 is a perfect example. I do not believe that if Canon saw the end of DSLR's to be near that they would launch a top tier body, they might continue to pump out Rebel T lines or whatnot sell by the pallets in Costco and WallyWorld. They are telling us they are continuing the line of the most dependable mirrored cameras in the world, with EF mount. To me it is a huge tell. 

The lines will continue side by side, just as EF-M and RF mounts will. No need for convergence, they have very different markets and uses. They are also complimentary. Why must so many think the arrival of one thing must mean the demise of another? 

If anything I would think the R and RP were made in the M mold. Testing the waters and will be left behind with new lineups which are named and modeled after the 1, 5 and 6 families. They finally had the M5 and 6 settled in and the R and RP were most likely deep into development they HAD to be launched. These M50's and M100's to me are like the T77, one offs which were half measures and in the end, the solid mature models and lines will replace them and their own Mk2's etc will be their successors. 

Canon does well with three lens lineups, but because other brands have one or gone to one Canon must follow suit? What has any other camera brand done to follow Canon, not much and if they tried, it failed. Sony filled a gap (they should be commended)... instead of playing side by side like Nikon did for decades ... and Canon did not until this year. Exciting times.


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## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

I just need this announcement...isn't it just days away? I'm not one to buy a body very often, my last FF was in 2012 so I'd love to know if the R5 is it or keep shooting with what I have and let everyone else freak out over specs and their crippling cackle. B&H and I are both ready, let's see if Canon is.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I 100% agree with everything above.
> 
> Where we've disagreed on this thread is the slope of that downward EF usage, as you pointed out.
> 
> ...



Yes. I think they also still remember 1987 and do not wish to repeat it.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> CPS Platinum loaners and repairs get free shipping both ways, but I'm not sure about returns of purchases.
> 
> - A



Apparently if a loaner is sent because a repair takes longer than the guarantee they still pay shipping both ways.

They seem to have changed the policy on CPS loans that do not involve a repair guarantee.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> If an asset is purchased in order to help generate revenue it is an investment. If the asset loses value over time, then you have a depreciation (or in accounting parlance amortization) expense that you deduct from revenue. However the asset is still an investment.



And the beginning of this conversation was about well heeled amateurs who buy big whites as an "investment" and spend far more on taking photographs of exotic birds in exotic locations than they ever recover in revenue selling images. Where, other than for the camera maker's, airline's, and hotel/resort's bottom line, is the revenue?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Perhaps an eager retailer covered the shipping cost that wasn't covered under Canon policy.



Retailers have absolutely nothing to do with CPS loans. They are direct from Canon to the user.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Agree on the current 5D4 being great, particularly for stills.
> 
> The question that each person who is looking to buy a new camera has to answer to himself or herself is can it meet my needs in the future? Will I miss out too much on the new RF glass that is here and coming soon or is the existing EF glass more than sufficient? Will I get into video or am I sticking to stills? Also, knowing that the EF line is on the down cycle, am I paying the right price for this camera or should I be getting a larger discount?



I think when most EF lenses go it will be like the EF 100mm f/2. It was released in 1991 and remained on Canon's books for over twenty years. It's never gotten a refresh/update. Based on the encoded serial number of one I have, they were manufactured at least as recently as 2015.

At some point recently it was quietly dropped from the catalog. No big announcement telling everyone it was discontinued. It just disappeared from the catalog because it wasn't selling well enough to make another batch worth doing when quantities ran low.

Canon Price Watch shows that that it hasn't been listed as in stock at the Canon USA direct store for the past 39 weeks. B&H deactivated their listing six weeks ago. Adorama deactivated their listing 47 weeks ago.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> The issue remains that at some point over the next several years, the economies of scale will take a foothold. If Canon is moving its focus to MILC going forward (seems clear they are) then continuing to produce new model EF lenses becomes self defeating. And continuing to produce large caches of existing models will be the same. Yes they have sold 100M units but the market is altering and they only have so much production capacity to go around. If they are going to slow down and then cease production of DSLRs over the next 5 years (certainly looks like they are with perhaps 1-2 exceptions like a 5D5), then it makes no sense investing in a bunch of new EF glass R&D and production. For what EF glass remains in use (a LOT) you can grab an RF adapter and slap it on your new RF camera.
> 
> So far as the M series, again, yes it's the best selling one. Right NOW. Again, any company has to allocate its limited R&D and production resources, not to mention Canon prefers to give customers as easy an upgrade path as possible. Therefore, as RF-S crop bodies come out in the next few years, don't be surprised to see the EFM models wound down as well. Why have two MILC Crop body eco-systems, when one of which has no upgrade capacity to higher level L glass? Why would Canon not prefer to have those M customers buy into new RF-S instead of EFM where they can buy (once Canon starts producing them) compact RF bodies similar in size to current M bodies with cheap RF-S glass and the ability to move UP into even more? Of course, IF Canon cant/wont make an RF-S body as compact as the M line now, different story, but I don't see why they couldn't get very similar sizes even with the RF mount being a bit bigger
> 
> ...



Based on current sales numbers compared to five and ten years ago, it would seem that Canon has excess lens manufacturing capacity. Are you suggesting this is not the case? Limited resources are with regard to new lens development, not to production of _existing lens designs_.

You assume that Canon is going to make very low priced APS-C RF bodies. Canon has given no indication they plan to do that. It should be fairly clear to anyone who looks at it objectively that Canon sees very little overlap between the target market for the EF-M line and the target market for the RF line. *The folks to whom Canon is selling EOS M cameras have no aspirations of ever "upgrading" to RF cameras. *(Hint: They are not the kind of folks who frequent Canon Rumors.)* They have no lens requirements that aren't being met by the lenses currently available.* _Why is this so hard to understand?

_


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> But what's best for EOS M sales (i.e. sticking EF-M) may not be what's best for RF body sales.
> 
> EF-M glass doesn't work on RF bodies, and Canon could fix that without eliminating why folks love EOS M:
> 
> ...



I disagree. I think Canon sees the EF-M market and the RF market as two totally different groups of potential customers with very little overlap. The number of EOS-M buyers who actively use other camera systems (EF, RF, etc.) is a very small number of the total number of EF-M buyers. (Hint: _ALL_ North American and Western Europe buyers of EF-M cameras and lenses are also a very small portion of the total. Asia is where the EF-M system is selling. That's a totally different market.)


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> CPS Platinum loaners and repairs get free shipping both ways, but I'm not sure about returns of purchases.



Repairs get free shipping both ways. Loaners get free shipping out but borrower pays to ship back (per the current CPS site as cut and paste above and confirmed by an email today from <[email protected]>). The past may have been different.

Returns in the eval period to Adorama (and presumably BH) get free shipping both ways.


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## PureClassA (Feb 4, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Based on current sales numbers compared to five and ten years ago, it would seem that Canon has excess lens manufacturing capacity. Are you suggesting this is not the case? Limited resources are with regard to new lens development, not to production of _existing lens designs_.
> 
> You assume that Canon is going to make very low priced APS-C RF bodies. Canon has given no indication they plan to do that. It should be fairly clear to anyone who looks at it objectively that Canon sees very little overlap between the target market for the EF-M line and the target market for the RF line. *The folks to whom Canon is selling EOS M cameras have no aspirations of ever "upgrading" to RF cameras. *(Hint: They are not the kind of folks who frequent Canon Rumors.)* They have no lens requirements that aren't being met by the lenses currently available.* _Why is this so hard to understand?_


Canon presently has a seamless APS-C to Full Frame mount line now in EF. Canon will build that same sort of system in RF as it gradually replaces EF in the coming years. Just because they haven't announced RF-S yet does not mean it isn't going to happen. It may not be til 2021-2022, but they will over time recreate the same product gamut they now have in EF with RF. Why on Earth wouldn't they? Canon itself has stated several times the RF mount has given them the ability to design and produce lenses that simply are not possible/viable in EF. The upper end of bodies is clearly migrating over to MILC. The lower range APS-C will undoubtedly follow suit in the coming years. Doesn't mean the existing lower end will drop off entirely within two years. But gradually merging everything into a singular mount system that can cover every need from basic entry level to professional just makes too much sense.


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## slclick (Feb 4, 2020)

It took 6 years from the onset of EF to the first EF-S lens. Not that history has to repeat itself but there will probably be a couple years at least from the Sept '18 launch of RF to the first RF-S if it happens at all. We're almost at a year and a half.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 4, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon presently has a seamless APS-C to Full Frame mount line now in EF. Canon will build that same sort of system in RF as it gradually replaces EF in the coming years. Just because they haven't announced RF-S yet does not mean it isn't going to happen. It may not be til 2021-2022, but they will over time recreate the same product gamut they now have in EF with RF. Why on Earth wouldn't they? Canon itself has stated several times the RF mount has given them the ability to design and produce lenses that simply are not possible/viable in EF. The upper end of bodies is clearly migrating over to MILC.



EF-M is not aimed at "upper end' anything. It's aimed at non-professional consumers. It's not aimed at 'Canon Rumors' readers. It's not aimed at folks who use more than one camera. It's aimed at people who want a single, lightweight, and compact camera that can do things their phone can't.

Those lens design advantages that are the result of shorter registration distances than EF are also present in EF-M. All of them. The wider throat diameter is not an advantage for an APS-C sized sensor in the way it is an advantage for a FF sensor. On the other hand, the wider throat diameter does limit how small an APS-C body can be. But that's pretty much moot for EF-M anyway, where very wide apertures and uncorrected lens performance are not prioritized over smaller size and lower weight.



PureClassA said:


> The lower range APS-C will undoubtedly follow suit in the coming years. Doesn't mean the existing lower end will drop off entirely within two years. But gradually merging everything into a singular mount system that can cover every need from basic entry level to professional just makes too much sense.



It may in some markets. It may not in others. Canon may change their current approach that the market for EF-M and the market for RF have very little overlap. But as long as EF-M is selling as well as it is, particularly in Asia and the Pacific Rim, it isn't going anywhere.

If there is any company that embodies the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality, it is Canon!


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## Rule556 (Feb 4, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon presently has a seamless APS-C to Full Frame mount line now in EF. Canon will build that same sort of system in RF as it gradually replaces EF in the coming years. Just because they haven't announced RF-S yet does not mean it isn't going to happen. It may not be til 2021-2022, but they will over time recreate the same product gamut they now have in EF with RF. Why on Earth wouldn't they? Canon itself has stated several times the RF mount has given them the ability to design and produce lenses that simply are not possible/viable in EF. The upper end of bodies is clearly migrating over to MILC. The lower range APS-C will undoubtedly follow suit in the coming years. Doesn't mean the existing lower end will drop off entirely within two years. But gradually merging everything into a singular mount system that can cover every need from basic entry level to professional just makes too much sense.



I'm wondering if Canon really sees the need for inexpensive crop sensor cameras outside of the M line. If they can standardize on full frame sensors (except for perhaps specialized birding or sports cameras who's users would want pro lenses anyway), that seems like the way to go. There would be no reason to start an RF-S line. The M line becomes your "budget" line, and then the RF line would have various price ranges all using the full frame RF mount. 

Ultimately, this is all tea-leaf reading I know.


----------



## Aaron Lozano (Feb 4, 2020)

To me if this makes 8K it should drop the 12fps/20 fps to 6fps/10fps...I mean ... Canon gonna Canon right?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Feb 4, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Actually, we are still trying to help you understand what dynamic range is.



Dynamic Range is well defined, PTP and DxO use very specific definitions with images normalised to a certain print size. Their definitions make the measured DR values usable only for comparison within respective websites, that was my point.
Also they don't actually print the images - PTP operates with a circle of confusion input parameter that corresponds (as far as I understand) a certain print size viewed at a certain distance.
In practice, as above, paper prints can't accommodate more than 7 stops of DR, and before printing, there will be digital downsamling which will involve additional antialiasing processing (and hence some additional information loss). This obviously isn't taken into account by PTP and DxO, as far as I can see. So the resulting DR numbers are 'ideal' and not even applicable to physical prints of the given sizes.



Kit. said:


> I'm sure you would be surprised to learn that it's actually_15_ stops of DR you are talking about.
> To be precise, log2((2¹⁴-1.5)/0.5) stops of DR.


Where does it come from? In the raw files, the signal is linear and discrete, you can't get more than 2^14. If your formula implies the noise level less than 1 bit, I doubt it.



Kit. said:


> Is it even a thing - downsampling in 14 bits?



Why wouldn't it be a thing? It happens say in camera when you set it to raw but not to the highest resolution. Don't be confused with CPUs who process data in blocks of 8, 16, 32, 64 bits.



Kit. said:


> The question is: if the DR at 45Mpix or 60Mpix resolution is important to you, how are you going to get it from a 30Mpix sensor?


 Not sure if I understood your question. I feel it implies the DR value is somehow derived from resolution but that's not the case, obviously.



Kit. said:


> If you convert it on a scanner with the resolution enough to resolve single silver grains (which are submicronic in size, so you will need a 100k+ DPI scanner), you will get a binary image. You can convert it into 8, 14, 16, 24, 32, 48, 64, or whatever number of bits per pixel you want, but it will be binary.



The silver crystals, first of all, are all different in shapes, sizes, and they overlap a lot. In fact there's several layers of them within the emulsion layer. They're not laid out nicely in a regular 2D grid. Your scanner will need to keep the information about the shape and 3D position of each crystal, and it's much more than 1 bit, there's no such a bizarre scanner that can capture all that information. 
You can scan to a normal 2D matrix with very high resolution, but each point will have more than two levels of brightness due to the crystals overlapping.



Kit. said:


> Such digital 1-bit-per-pixel sensors are already proposed.


They're not 1 bit per resulting image pixel. They don't even call the receptors 'pixels', they call them 'jots'. https://www.gigajot.tech/
If this idea works, it'll probably be a very high DR sensor, but the resulting image will have the normal N-bit pixels:


> Photon bits fields are binned over temporal and spatial dimensions during the image processing *to create image pixels*.



Anyway I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to prove with these 1-bit-jots and 1-bit-crystals. That the 14-bit raw image can have more than 14 stops of DR? No it can't. 
You can convert it to 16 bit, then carefully downsample, reduce noise and thus get some additional DR, but that won't be the original image, that'll be a *different, smaller image*. Halide crystals and jots don't prove anything here, they're simply irrelevant.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 4, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I 100% agree with everything above.
> 
> Where we've disagreed on this thread is the slope of that downward EF usage, as you pointed out.
> 
> ...


Except, I think there is a great unknown here, which is to what extent it is possible to completely replace all the functionality of DSLRs with Mirrorless. I know I am repeating myself, but after six months of regular, heavy use of the R, I am skeptical about the technological hurdles that need to be overcome for Mirrorless to truly replace DSLRs in all functional aspects.

Mirrorless has intrinsic advantages that are not shared by mirrored bodies. But, mirrored bodies also have some intrinsic advantages. I think the mistake that may be being made here is that people are overly optimistic about the pace of mirrorless advances and overly skeptical about the pace of DSLR advances. I am at least willing to entertain the possibility that mirrorless cameras will never be as good as mirrored bodies for certain uses, particularly sports and action. I also feel that mirrorless already outperform mirrored bodies in other areas, such as portraiture.

So, while Canon might want to move to a single format to maximize profits, there are reasons why they may not be able to actually do that for quite some time, or perhaps ever.


----------



## davo (Feb 5, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> itll flip a lot of 5D3 holdouts and current 5D4 users, don't get me wrong. But I think a 5D5 with similar specs will happen.
> 
> - A


I am a 5D3 holdout begging to be flipped


----------



## richperson (Feb 5, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Since you are already a mirrorless user, how did you find the switch from OVF to EVF? I did look at the R but only in a store, so I have no real world experience.



I realize you didn't ask me, but I use both frequently. The big plus of EVF is getting a more realistic view of your exposure and also being able to see when shooting in low light. For theater it has been great as it lets me see scenes I might not otherwise be able to see. For sports, the lag and blackout are relatively bothersome, but usable. I don't know that it will ever be truly solved because of the physics of having to send a signal from the sensor to the EVF, but it could be faster for sure.


----------



## slclick (Feb 5, 2020)

davo said:


> I am a 5D3 holdout begging to be flipped


As am I but if they can do to the 5DV in weight what they did to the Mark IV over the Mark lll (drop it by 90 grams) I would prefer a dslr for ergonomics and clarity of viewfinder, not to mention battery life.


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## slclick (Feb 5, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> I hate to get sucked into the 'photography-is-or-isn't-art' worm hole, but I can't help it:
> 
> I think 'art' is used where 'good' is what's meant--as a value statement. In my opinion, anyway,: art is art. Be it good art or be it bad art. Whether you like it or you don't like it. Nobody says, "Ahh now listen to that! That's _music_!" as if it's not _music_ if it isn't good music.


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## unfocused (Feb 5, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I think when most EF lenses go it will be like the EF 100mm f/2. It was released in 1991 and remained on Canon's books for over twenty years. It's never gotten a refresh/update. Based on the encoded serial number of one I have, they were manufactured at least as recently as 2015.
> 
> At some point recently it was quietly dropped from the catalog. No big announcement telling everyone it was discontinued. It just disappeared from the catalog because it wasn't selling well enough to make another batch worth doing when quantities ran low.
> 
> Canon Price Watch shows that that it hasn't been listed as in stock at the Canon USA direct store for the past 39 weeks. B&H deactivated their listing six weeks ago. Adorama deactivated their listing 47 weeks ago.


I get your point, but in this case it may have been discontinued because Canon likely feels it was superseded by the 135mm f2 "L".


----------



## SteveC (Feb 5, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Look to the R6 then. That is going to be one HELL of Full Frame camera for what may well turn out to be $1500 price range. My DX2 is the same 20MP and I use if for the bulk of my work. Coming up from where you are, I dont see the R5 being worth the extra (maybe) $2000. You would be much better off investing that $2000 in L glass. What lenses in EF do you have now?



20 MP seems like a huge step down for me from my M6 II.

As for lenses: the 100mm macro (pry it from my cold dead hands), the 100-400 II L, and a smattering of the lower-end primes (85 f/1.8, 50 f/1.4, and the pancake 40). Those last three, honestly are a bad case of GAS, I've had no real use for them as yet. (I have other lenses, of course, for the M mount; plus some EF-S lenses from Tamron that I bought before I decided I shouldn't be buying EF-S any more; of course they work well on my M6 II.) 

I'm still comparatively new to this.


----------



## brad-man (Feb 5, 2020)

SteveC said:


> 20 MP seems like a huge step down for me from my M6 II.
> 
> As for lenses: the 100mm macro (pry it from my cold dead hands), the 100-400 II L, and a smattering of the lower-end primes (85 f/1.8, 50 f/1.4, and the pancake 40). Those last three, honestly are a bad case of GAS, I've had no real use for them as yet. (I have other lenses, of course, for the M mount; plus some EF-S lenses from Tamron that I bought before I decided I shouldn't be buying EF-S any more; of course they work well on my M6 II.)
> 
> I'm still comparatively new to this.


May I suggest an EF 16-35mm f/4L IS ? It will be useful whether you go for the R or not.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> It took 6 years from the onset of EF to the first EF-S lens. Not that history has to repeat itself but there will probably be a couple years at least from the Sept '18 launch of RF to the first RF-S if it happens at all. We're almost at a year and a half.



2003 minus 1987 equal 16, not 6. But that only strengthens your point


----------



## SteveC (Feb 5, 2020)

brad-man said:


> May I suggest an EF 16-35mm f/4L IS ? It will be useful whether you go for the R or not.



Not a bad thought. My existing EF-S lenses (the Tamron 10-24 and 18-400, both have gotten use on my M bodies) nominally cover a huge range; replacing it all with full frame L glass is going to be a project (the 100-400 being the start of it). 

I'd want an L for the mid range too, someday. The 24-105 F/4 L would fit that bill perfectly. And if I do go Rsomething, there's an R version of that offered as a kit lens (an L lens as a kit lens...!).

The beauty of buying EF lenses in preparation, of course, is I can stick them on the M body with an adapter--I've done tolerably well with the 100-400 on the M6 II.

I'd love to see Canon offer an R kit with the control ring adapter for $100 more than the kit with the basic adapter, but that likely won't happen.

(In fact, sometimes Canon makes me scratch my head as I wonder how they choose what will go into a kit. The M6II for instance could come with an EVF and 15-45mm lens (ugh), or an EVF and some other lens, but no way to buy the camera and EVF and NO lens at a discount. Since I already had the 15-45--it came with the M50--and a Tamron 18-200 M-mount, I had no interest in either of those two lenses. I wasn't alone in thinking this was silly, in fact, the owner of the ten or twelve store chain I shop at says he asked Canon point blank about that choice when they briefed him on the new camera and they simply gave no answer.)


----------



## SteveC (Feb 5, 2020)

Why do people assume that if Canon decides to do crop-frame R mounts, they will necessarily also come out with crop lenses ("RF-S") for it?


----------



## lawny13 (Feb 5, 2020)

jam05 said:


> You mean the 5D of yesteryear that is. It's 2020 not 2017. Heck smartphones will be pushing 8k 30fps this year and 108 and 200mp on that Snapdragon 865. Many of us in the tech industry aren't in awe of.



Still 20fps does put any camera in A9 territory. The 5D series was never particularly about sports. But this sort of speed would put it there. It is a massive leap over what the current 5D line can do, same with whatever the A7III and A7RIV can do. 

Everyone seems to likening the FF canon MILC to the DSLR lines. All I am saying is why not look at it a little different? This is a camera line built from scratch by canon. There need not be a DSLR line up equivalent, though i am sure people will associate 6, 5, and 1 to the DSLR lines. But end of the day if the R5 and R6 do materialize with these specs I would say that there is nothing at all about them that I would say is associated with the DSLRs other than the number in the names.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 5, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I 100% agree with everything above.
> 
> Where we've disagreed on this thread is the slope of that downward EF usage, as you pointed out.
> 
> ...




++++ What Canon wants for maximum profit (pull out the rug ASAP, shut down EF aggressively) 

A.M.: I am sorry, you are incorrect.this is a short term strategy. this will lead to a destruction of Brand. Canon as a responsible enterprise do not operate like youu have described.

EF mount is now (likely) a SUNSET: i.e. no new development, complete / finalise existing EF related projects, (5D V, 1dx III), etc.), continue providing support for enterprise warranty and support agreements, maintain park of spare parts for next 3 years at least.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2020)

SteveC said:


> 20 MP seems like a huge step down for me from my M6 II.
> 
> As for lenses: the 100mm macro (pry it from my cold dead hands), the 100-400 II L, and a smattering of the lower-end primes (85 f/1.8, 50 f/1.4, and the pancake 40). Those last three, honestly are a bad case of GAS, I've had no real use for them as yet. (I have other lenses, of course, for the M mount; plus some EF-S lenses from Tamron that I bought before I decided I shouldn't be buying EF-S any more; of course they work well on my M6 II.)
> 
> I'm still comparatively new to this.


You’re looking at raw pixel count. Don’t. You’re talking about a significant leap going from Crop to Full frame. Pixel density isn't the end all spec. And going from 20 to 24 is not very noticeable unless you are doing more heavy cropping.

What do you commonly shoot? Let’s try and establish what may most benefit you


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> EF-M is not aimed at "upper end' anything. It's aimed at non-professional consumers. It's not aimed at 'Canon Rumors' readers.



I wasnt implying At all that they were. I was speaking of the current upper end of the Canon line. The full frame DSLRs, which are at present being slowly phased over to the RF line. And later on, lower priced Crop bodies will absolutely be coming


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2020)

richperson said:


> I realize you didn't ask me, but I use both frequently. The big plus of EVF is getting a more realistic view of your exposure and also being able to see when shooting in low light. For theater it has been great as it lets me see scenes I might not otherwise be able to see. For sports, the lag and blackout are relatively bothersome, but usable. I don't know that it will ever be truly solved because of the physics of having to send a signal from the sensor to the EVF, but it could be faster for sure.



my experiences have been exactly the same. Really appreciate the versatility and quality of the EVF for most situations, but any fast action stuff is certainly not among them.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 5, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Why do people assume that if Canon decides to do crop-frame R mounts, they will necessarily also come out with crop lenses ("RF-S") for it?




Short answer: Because they may not make a crop RF body just for the 7D camp. Perhaps Canon wants one mount to rule them all.

Longer answer: Folks shooting crop on RF mount bodies face some unpleasant compatibility and focal length options:

Use EF-S lenses via adaptor -- probably the best option, but Canon is not exactly pumping out much new glass there
Use larger, more expensive (adapted) EF or (new) RF lenses when all they need is the center crop portion of those lenses; if you only shoot crop, you're overpaying for heavier lenses and parts of the FF you will never use.
If you refuse to use an adaptor and need a first party UWA zoom option, the crop hoses you. $2699 or nothing for an 11-24L (no one will do that).
FF lenses are more expensive for a host of reasons, but the need to cover a FF image circle with larger optical elements and larger housings is a big part of that.

So Canon aims to migrate all crop users to RF eventually, or just the very specific birding/wildlifing 7D users. The former demands RF-S lenses for that migration to be successful. The latter does not (they likely shoot full EF today and wouldn't mind the burden of FF glass like the general userbase might).

- A


----------



## Ozarker (Feb 5, 2020)

So, what do you people think of the R5 specs?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I get your point, but in this case it may have been discontinued because Canon likely feels it was superseded by the 135mm f2 "L".



Well then, it only took 23 years for them to get around to doing it from the time the EF 135mm f/2 L was introduced in 1996 to when the EF 100mm f/2 was discontinued in 2019...


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 5, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> ++++ What Canon wants for maximum profit (pull out the rug ASAP, shut down EF aggressively)
> 
> A.M.: I am sorry, you are incorrect.this is a short term strategy. this will lead to a destruction of Brand. Canon as a responsible enterprise do not operate like youu have described.
> 
> EF mount is now (likely) a SUNSET: i.e. no new development, complete / finalise existing EF related projects, (5D V, 1dx III), etc.), continue providing support for enterprise warranty and support agreements, maintain park of spare parts for next 3 years at least.



Canon has typically supported lenses for at least seven years after they've been discontinued. There have been a few rare cases where they ran out of repair parts for very low volume lenses earlier than that, but it's the exception, not the rule.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 5, 2020)

SteveC said:


> (In fact, sometimes Canon makes me scratch my head as I wonder how they choose what will go into a kit. The M6II for instance could come with an EVF and 15-45mm lens (ugh), or an EVF and some other lens, but no way to buy the camera and EVF and NO lens at a discount. Since I already had the 15-45--it came with the M50--and a Tamron 18-200 M-mount, I had no interest in either of those two lenses. I wasn't alone in thinking this was silly, in fact, the owner of the ten or twelve store chain I shop at says he asked Canon point blank about that choice when they briefed him on the new camera and they simply gave no answer.)



Which just goes to show that Canon considers the EF-M system a "one and done" purchase for its buyers.


----------



## jam05 (Feb 5, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> Still 20fps does put any camera in A9 territory. The 5D series was never particularly about sports. But this sort of speed would put it there. It is a massive leap over what the current 5D line can do, same with whatever the A7III and A7RIV can do.
> 
> Everyone seems to likening the FF canon MILC to the DSLR lines. All I am saying is why not look at it a little different? This is a camera line built from scratch by canon. There need not be a DSLR line up equivalent, though i am sure people will associate 6, 5, and 1 to the DSLR lines. But end of the day if the R5 and R6 do materialize with these specs I would say that there is nothing at all about them that I would say is associated with the DSLRs other than the number in the names.


Actually its being remorted and obviously noted elsewhere (fstoppers) the R5 replaces the 5dmk4 and R6 replaces the 6D. a Note adorama is requesting used 5dmk4 this week. expect resale prices to drop next week. Already sold my 5D


----------



## jam05 (Feb 5, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Actually its being remorted and obviously noted elsewhere (fstoppers) the R5 replaces the 5dmk4 and R6 replaces the 6D. a Note adorama is requesting used 5dmk4 this week. expect resale prices to drop next week. Already sold my 5D


forgive my typing errors.


----------



## Aaron D (Feb 5, 2020)

OK the moderators are going to shut me down for going wildly off-topic--is that a Campy crankset in your icon thing?


----------



## slclick (Feb 5, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> OK the moderators are going to shut me down for going wildly off-topic--is that a Campy crankset in your icon thing?


It is, is yours a pixelated image of a La Vie Claire jersey?


----------



## Nuno Oliveira (Feb 5, 2020)

Does that mean there will not be a 5D Mark IV after all?


----------



## slclick (Feb 5, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> Does that mean there will not be a 5D Mark IV after all?


Only if you have a time machine.


----------



## Aaron D (Feb 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> It is, is yours a pixelated image of a La Vie Claire jersey?


Nah, but close enough! Just a tiny piece of a photo...


----------



## Lee Jay (Feb 5, 2020)

UlricWolf said:


> Reading all this I clearly see that You have no clue and You havent actually used a camera (because few of the stuff You are writing is complete nonsense and out of this world) Maybe You have, but for, maybe, few test situations and few minutes. Good luck then with Your DSLRs. Im not returning to those old sh*ts.



I've used them in the stores. If they can't do the job of following a walking person without blur and if they show the windows of the store entirely white, there's no point in buying one to use more. Why would I spend $12k just to find out that I don't like the thing?

DSLRs work. Period. I've never once had any trouble with the viewfinder, and they have many times the battery life. I've framed and manually focused shots that ended up being 30 second exposures at high ISO (i.e. M13 seen through my telescope) on a crop dSLR so any supposed problems in low-light simply don't exist if you don't let a thing like an EVF wreck your dark adaptation. I find all the extra information overlayed onto my scene distracting so I turn it all off. My friend had an A7ii here and I couldn't believe how slow the viewfinder was in responding to changes in lighting. Point at the window and prepare to see all-white for about a second. Point back inside and it's all black for the same time.

When you shoot difficult subjects, you want a viewfinder to simply work, and OVFs do. Current EVFs don't.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 5, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Except, I think there is a great unknown here, which is to what extent it is possible to completely replace all the functionality of DSLRs with Mirrorless. I know I am repeating myself, but after six months of regular, heavy use of the R, I am skeptical about the technological hurdles that need to be overcome for Mirrorless to truly replace DSLRs in all functional aspects.
> 
> Mirrorless has intrinsic advantages that are not shared by mirrored bodies. But, mirrored bodies also have some intrinsic advantages. I think the mistake that may be being made here is that people are overly optimistic about the pace of mirrorless advances and overly skeptical about the pace of DSLR advances. I am at least willing to entertain the possibility that mirrorless cameras will never be as good as mirrored bodies for certain uses, particularly sports and action. I also feel that mirrorless already outperform mirrored bodies in other areas, such as portraiture.
> 
> So, while Canon might want to move to a single format to maximize profits, there are reasons why they may not be able to actually do that for quite some time, or perhaps ever.



This is why I think Canon will still make a 5D5 at the very least, but so far as bringing out slates of NEW EF glass like we are presently accustomed to... I think those days are largely behind us. For sports and nature, the 5D and 1DX lines are the champs (discounting Crops for a moment) and then your larger great whites. I think those could be around (in terms of new sales) longer than your more average/widely used focal lengths simply because we haven't got a MILC yet that can adequately replace what a 1DX3 can do.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 5, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Actually its being remorted and obviously noted elsewhere (fstoppers) the R5 replaces the 5dmk4 and R6 replaces the 6D. a Note adorama is requesting used 5dmk4 this week. expect resale prices to drop next week. Already sold my 5D


are you suggesting that 5D IV users should sell their cameras ASAP? Okay. What do I shoot with between now and until the still to be announced and not market proven R5 arrived in 6 months (?) from now? Do I shoot with my iPhone?


----------



## slclick (Feb 5, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Actually its being remorted and obviously noted elsewhere (fstoppers) the R5 replaces the 5dmk4 and R6 replaces the 6D. a Note adorama is requesting used 5dmk4 this week. expect resale prices to drop next week. Already sold my 5D


Fstoppers is as a reliable source of information as Peta Pixel or the Enquirer. Basically a showcase for overprocessed NSFW portraits.


----------



## Dantana (Feb 6, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I've used them in the stores. If they can't do the job of following a walking person without blur and if they show the windows of the store entirely white, there's no point in buying one to use more. Why would I spend $12k just to find out that I don't like the thing?
> 
> DSLRs work. Period. I've never once had any trouble with the viewfinder, and they have many times the battery life. I've framed and manually focused shots that ended up being 30 second exposures at high ISO (i.e. M13 seen through my telescope) on a crop dSLR so any supposed problems in low-light simply don't exist if you don't let a thing like an EVF wreck your dark adaptation. I find all the extra information overlayed onto my scene distracting so I turn it all off. My friend had an A7ii here and I couldn't believe how slow the viewfinder was in responding to changes in lighting. Point at the window and prepare to see all-white for about a second. Point back inside and it's all black for the same time.
> 
> When you shoot difficult subjects, you want a viewfinder to simply work, and OVFs do. Current EVFs don't.


It's a good thing that your DSLR won't magically stop working after Canon releases another mirror-less camera that you don't want to use. You don't like EVF's. Great. You've made that point many times. Use a DSLR.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 6, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> This is why I think Canon will still make a 5D5 at the very least, but so far as bringing out slates of NEW EF glass like we are presently accustomed to... I think those days are largely behind us. For sports and nature, the 5D and 1DX lines are the champs (discounting Crops for a moment) and then your larger great whites. I think those could be around (in terms of new sales) longer than your more average/widely used focal lengths simply because we haven't got a MILC yet that can adequately replace what a 1DX3 can do.


I agree. But actually, it seems like those days were already behind us. The 24-105 II and the 70-200 III were very basic refreshes with no optical improvement. It seems like the biggest releases of the past several years have been lighter versions of existing big whites. Even going back a few years, the updates to lenses like the 24-70 f2.8 did improve the optical performance (so I've heard), but it wasn't a new lens. 

I think Canon may continue along that path for quite some time. Updating lenses with new coatings or when they improve their manufacturing efficiencies. These are low-cost updates that probably don't take a lot of lens sales to justify. And, really, it hasn't been uncommon for EF lenses to be on a 8-10 year or longer cycle anyway. The only difference may be that now, when an EF lens is not updated, forum experts will say it's because of the RF line.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 6, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I agree. But actually, it seems like those days were already behind us. The 24-105 II and the 70-200 III were very basic refreshes with no optical improvement. It seems like the biggest releases of the past several years have been lighter versions of existing big whites. Even going back a few years, the updates to lenses like the 24-70 f2.8 did improve the optical performance (so I've heard), but it wasn't a new lens.
> 
> I think Canon may continue along that path for quite some time. Updating lenses with new coatings or when they improve their manufacturing efficiencies. These are low-cost updates that probably don't take a lot of lens sales to justify. And, really, it hasn't been uncommon for EF lenses to be on a 8-10 year or longer cycle anyway. The only difference may be that now, when an EF lens is not updated, forum experts will say it's because of the RF line.


I think the big clue was seeing things like the long sought after 24-70 2.8L IS. Finally came out!! In RF. With no rumored roadmap for an EF version. That’s a top 3 major workhorse lens that to date Canon has yet to even hint at an EF version im aware of. That tells me a lot.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 6, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> are you suggesting that 5D IV users should sell their cameras ASAP? Okay. What do I shoot with between now and until the still to be announced and not market proven R5 arrived in 6 months (?) from now? Do I shoot with my iPhone?


Yes. Just buy the DXO made phone camera accessory. All set


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Short answer: Because they may not make a crop RF body just for the 7D camp. Perhaps Canon wants one mount to rule them all.
> 
> Longer answer: Folks shooting crop on RF mount bodies face some unpleasant compatibility and focal length options:
> 
> ...



Or they could just keep EF-M going for their crop line.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 6, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Actually its being remorted and obviously noted elsewhere (fstoppers) the R5 replaces the 5dmk4 and R6 replaces the 6D. a Note adorama is requesting used 5dmk4 this week. expect resale prices to drop next week. Already sold my 5D



If Adorama is begging for used 5D Mark IV bodies, they don't think the price is dropping anytime soon. They might feel that the price will go up if Canon doesn't introduce a 5D Mark V along with the R5?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 6, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> Does that mean there will not be a 5D Mark IV after all?



I've had a 5D Mark IV for a while. It came out in 2016...


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 6, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> are you suggesting that 5D IV users should sell their cameras ASAP? Okay. What do I shoot with between now and until the still to be announced and not market proven R5 arrived in 6 months (?) from now? Do I shoot with my iPhone?



Shoot? Who here uses camera to actually take pictures? We all just sit around bragging about how "My camera could beat up your camera _if_ I ever actually took a picture with it."


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 6, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I agree. But actually, it seems like those days were already behind us. The 24-105 II and the 70-200 III were very basic refreshes with no optical improvement. It seems like the biggest releases of the past several years have been lighter versions of existing big whites. Even going back a few years, the updates to lenses like the 24-70 f2.8 did improve the optical performance (so I've heard), but it wasn't a new lens.
> 
> I think Canon may continue along that path for quite some time. Updating lenses with new coatings or when they improve their manufacturing efficiencies. These are low-cost updates that probably don't take a lot of lens sales to justify. And, really, it hasn't been uncommon for EF lenses to be on a 8-10 year or longer cycle anyway. The only difference may be that now, when an EF lens is not updated, forum experts will say it's because of the RF line.



Au contraire mon frere. The "II" was a totally new design that started with a clean sheet of paper.

The only thing the EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L and the EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II share is focal length range and maximum aperture. The "II" is a totally different design. The original was fully recessed at 70mm and had maximum extension at 24mm. The "II" is a more conventional design that extend at 70mm and is recessed at 24mm.

Look at their respective block diagrams;

EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L:




EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II:


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 6, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Yes. Just buy the DXO made phone camera accessory. All set



Great. problem solved! thank you. here is the outcome


----------



## TMACIOSZEK (Feb 6, 2020)

Time is nearing for an official announcement... hoping that most of this will be true. If so, this camera will be a juggernaut.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 6, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Great. problem solved! thank you. here is the outcome
> 
> 
> View attachment 188559



is that really from the DXO One camera??


----------



## Nuno Oliveira (Feb 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Sure, but for every answer to your question that says 'bite the bullet and move to RF to future proof my world', there are takeaways. Consider a current 5D4 owner sizing up a move to an R5:
> 
> Will EF really go away during the 4-5 years I will use this new body?
> Will I miss my OVF, the responsiveness, etc.?
> ...


Can someone explain to me why Canon does not confirm if a 5DV will be launched? What do they have to loose? They still don't know if they will do it by now?


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 6, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> Can someone explain to me why Canon does not confirm if a 5DV will be launched? What do they have to loose? They still don't know if they will do it by now?



I would think they fear the Osbourne Effect.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 6, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> Can someone explain to me why Canon does not confirm if a 5DV will be launched? What do they have to loose? They still don't know if they will do it by now?


Canon seldom confirms any upcoming launch. The exception being development announcements which are generally saved for things like the 1Dx and some big white lenses. If they do confirm any other bodies or lenses, it's usually just a matter of weeks before the formal announcement. I'm guessing, and it's all guessing at this point. that the 5DV will follow the new R5, but may not be announced for six months or more. It will have the same sensor as the R5, but everything else is anyone's guess. I would also say that there is a slim chance that the 5DV and the R5 will either be announced or released at the same time, but I doubt it.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 6, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> If Adorama is begging for used 5D Mark IV bodies, they don't think the price is dropping anytime soon. They might feel that the price will go up if Canon doesn't introduce a 5D Mark V along with the R5?



Adorama doesn't care if prices go up or down for that market. They buy today to sell tomorrow at a good profit. Of course, inventory carries risks, but they put them up for sale the moment they're inspected and ready. Buy today, sell tomorrow.


----------



## Nuno Oliveira (Feb 6, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Canon seldom confirms any upcoming launch. The exception being development announcements which are generally saved for things like the 1Dx and some big white lenses. If they do confirm any other bodies or lenses, it's usually just a matter of weeks before the formal announcement. I'm guessing, and it's all guessing at this point. that the 5DV will follow the new R5, but may not be announced for six months or more. It will have the same sensor as the R5, but everything else is anyone's guess. I would also say that there is a slim chance that the 5DV and the R5 will either be announced or released at the same time, but I doubt it.



I suppose that:

1. the vast majority of people who will buy the R5 will not buy the 5DV, and vice-versa;
2. the vast majority of OVF lovers will get the R5 if the 5DV won't ever be released;

So I think it is good (and important, actually) for both Canon and Canon users to clarify as soon as possible if the 5DV will be released or not.

For now EVF takes most of the peasure out of photography to me, so I'd be willing to wait for the 5DV. But if they tell me it won't ever be released I'll probably get the R5 right after it's launched to see how it goes.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 7, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> I suppose that:
> 
> 1. the vast majority of people who will buy the R5 will not buy the 5DV, and vice-versa;
> 2. the vast majority of OVF lovers will get the R5 if the 5DV won't ever be released;
> ...



You left out #3:

There are a few 5D Mark IV users who will be unable to resist having the "latest and greatest" EOS "5" camera and will buy an R5 when it releases this summer as Canon remains silent about the possibility of a 5D Mark V. Shortly thereafter, if Canon rolls out a 5D Mark V, they'll buy one of those, too.


----------



## Czardoom (Feb 7, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> I suppose that:
> 
> 1. the vast majority of people who will buy the R5 will not buy the 5DV, and vice-versa;
> 2. the vast majority of OVF lovers will get the R5 if the 5DV won't ever be released;
> ...


I think the vast majority of OVF 5DIV lovers will just keep their 5DIVs for a few more years. Gear heads on forums feel the need to upgrade to the latest and greatest, but most photographers are quite happy to keep their cameras for a few generations. If I owned the 5DIV and wanted to keep using an OVF - and needed to replace my existing camera - I would just buy another 5DIV, either new or used. Despite all the usual internet hoopla, their is never that much difference from one generation camera to the next.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 7, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> I think the vast majority of OVF 5DIV lovers will just keep their 5DIVs for a few more years. Gear heads on forums feel the need to upgrade to the latest and greatest, but most photographers are quite happy to keep their cameras for a few generations. If I owned the 5DIV and wanted to keep using an OVF - and needed to replace my existing camera - I would just buy another 5DIV, either new or used. Despite all the usual internet hoopla, their is never that much difference from one generation camera to the next.


I’m excellent at convincing myself that there is a big difference.


----------



## Nuno Oliveira (Feb 7, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You left out #3:
> 
> There are a few 5D Mark IV users who will be unable to resist having the "latest and greatest" EOS "5" camera and will buy an R5 when it releases this summer as Canon remains silent about the possibility of a 5D Mark V. Shortly thereafter, if Canon rolls out a 5D Mark V, they'll buy one of those, too.


Yes, I left those out, as well as those who will be happy to use previous 5D/6D/7D versions until they stop working. That's why I said "the vast majority". 
My point was just that I think Canon, from a business perspective, wouldn't loose anything by informing what they intend to do about the 5DV by the time they release the R5. On the contrary, it would be good for everyone.
But I'm not an expert whatsoever, I'm happy to hear other people's opinions about this issue.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 7, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> is that really from the DXO One camera??


Noooooo .... 5D4 + 24-70/2.8 II L.


----------



## Trankilstef (Feb 7, 2020)

One week from the announcement. I'm starving for new infos, rumors or even leaked images


----------



## BillB (Feb 7, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> I think the vast majority of OVF 5DIV lovers will just keep their 5DIVs for a few more years. Gear heads on forums feel the need to upgrade to the latest and greatest, but most photographers are quite happy to keep their cameras for a few generations. If I owned the 5DIV and wanted to keep using an OVF - and needed to replace my existing camera - I would just buy another 5DIV, either new or used. Despite all the usual internet hoopla, their is never that much difference from one generation camera to the next.


Well, the 5DII had a 20mp sensor, twice the mp of the 5D, along with Liveview and video, the 5DIII had a major AF upgrade, and the 5DIV had a significant sensor upgrade, along with touch focus and touch control of camera settings. Even so, I agree that a lot, likely most, of 5DIV owners who don't want to move to mirrorless will stick with what they have. There are still quite a few people with 5DIII's out there though.


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## DarkPhalanx (Feb 7, 2020)

All that I know is that if this camera comes to fruition with at least 80% of the rumoured specs, I'll be picking it up. Since it is said to be a July release date, it'll be my birthday gift to myself...lol. 

Just a week to go until we find out.


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## SteveC (Feb 7, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> Yes, I left those out, as well as those who will be happy to use previous 5D/6D/7D versions until they stop working. That's why I said "the vast majority".
> My point was just that I think Canon, from a business perspective, wouldn't loose anything by informing what they intend to do about the 5DV by the time they release the R5. On the contrary, it would be good for everyone.
> But I'm not an expert whatsoever, I'm happy to hear other people's opinions about this issue.



They would lose current 5DIV sales.

I spoke to a Canon rep who was most unhappy about how early they announced the new 1D model. It killed his ability to sell the current model, and Canon did NOT decrease his quota in the least.


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## slclick (Feb 7, 2020)

Can we get a section for 'I spoke to a Canon Rep' ?


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## UlricWolf (Feb 7, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I've used them in the stores. If they can't do the job of following a walking person without blur and if they show the windows of the store entirely white, there's no point in buying one to use more. Why would I spend $12k just to find out that I don't like the thing?
> 
> DSLRs work. Period. I've never once had any trouble with the viewfinder, and they have many times the battery life. I've framed and manually focused shots that ended up being 30 second exposures at high ISO (i.e. M13 seen through my telescope) on a crop dSLR so any supposed problems in low-light simply don't exist if you don't let a thing like an EVF wreck your dark adaptation. I find all the extra information overlayed onto my scene distracting so I turn it all off. My friend had an A7ii here and I couldn't believe how slow the viewfinder was in responding to changes in lighting. Point at the window and prepare to see all-white for about a second. Point back inside and it's all black for the same time.
> 
> When you shoot difficult subjects, you want a viewfinder to simply work, and OVFs do. Current EVFs don't.



Man, thats the point, YOU HAVENT USED IT and You are talking bullsh*t - Iam professional photographer for almost 15years and I have used almost all of Canons DSLRs. Now I use R for more than Year. And believe me, You are talking nonsence with no experience. And comparing to DSLRs - mirrorless just work lot better. Focus is always spot on (and its just impossible with DSLRs) and I dont even want to start with all other benefits.

Curent EVFs just work better as I said. And technology gives so much more possibilities. Comparing to dinosour old A7II is just stupid - very bad camera with ancient technology.


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## Nelu (Feb 7, 2020)

slclick said:


> Can we get a section for 'I spoke to a Canon Rep' ?


Man, why are you so...cranky?
It's not a Shimano, right?


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## Lee Jay (Feb 7, 2020)

UlricWolf said:


> Man, thats the point, YOU HAVENT USED IT



I have used many EVF cameras, since the 1980s. I own several. I don't own an EVF ILC because, when I test them in the stores, they have all the same problems all the EVF cameras I've ever owned have.



> and You are talking bullsh*t - Iam professional photographer for almost 15years and I have used almost all of Canons DSLRs.



I've been a photographer since 1979. So what?



> Now I use R for more than Year. And believe me, You are talking nonsence with no experience. And comparing to DSLRs - mirrorless just work lot better.



Please show me some shots you've taken, of high-speed moving subjects, framed tightly, at 900mm-equivalent or more, preferably a long burst showing you kept it tightly framed while tracking and shooting. I have dozens or hundreds of such shots and burst take on SLRs.


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## Optics Patent (Feb 7, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> Just a week to go until we find out.



...then a couple months until they start taking orders, then a couple months until delivery! ;-)


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## BeenThere (Feb 7, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> I think the vast majority of OVF 5DIV lovers will just keep their 5DIVs for a few more years. Gear heads on forums feel the need to upgrade to the latest and greatest, but most photographers are quite happy to keep their cameras for a few generations. If I owned the 5DIV and wanted to keep using an OVF - and needed to replace my existing camera - I would just buy another 5DIV, either new or used. Despite all the usual internet hoopla, their is never that much difference from one generation camera to the next.


I have the 5D3 and did not upgrade when the 5D4 arrived. Now looking forward to R5, and if it meets the hype, will likely upgrade. Two generations of improvement will make it a worthwhile move. Looking forward to early reviews. Many other aspects of the design are yet to be revealed. I think I can adapt to mirrorless operation.


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## slclick (Feb 7, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Man, why are you so...cranky?
> It's not a Shimano, right?


Context sucks with typing, I know. It was not a mean spirited post at all. It was actually in the vein of listing and comparing. I know how it could have come across differently but , well it's how you take things, right? 

(fwiw, I ride Shimano, but never on the road)


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## Lee Jay (Feb 7, 2020)

Okay, here's what I have now:

20D/5D - semi-retired
7D Mark II
8-15/4L fisheye (180° horizontal to 22mm-equivalent rectilinear when defished)
10-18STM (lightweight rectilinear ultrawide with IS)
Sigma 18-35/1.8 (standard for low-light moving subjects)
18-135 nano-USM (good light general walkaround and power-zoom semi-hyperzoom for video)
50/1.8 STM (low-light gap-filler)
55-250 STM (light-weight stabilized telephoto)
70-200/2.8L IS II (low-light stabilized telephoto)
Sigma 150-600C (good light super-telephoto zoom)
Celestron Edge HD 11 with EF adapter (2,800mm f10, 2000mm, f7 with wide adapter)

To switch to a full-frame R, I figure:

Keep the 8-15 and always use it in crop mode (I have no interest in circular fisheye shots).
Replace 10-18 with 15-35/2.8 ($2,300) (similar range, faster, heavier and way, way more expensive)
Replace 18-35/1.8 with 24-70/2.8 ($2,300) (tiny bit more range, same speed, stabilized)
Replace 18-135 with 24-240 ($900) (tiny bit more range)
No replacement for the 55-250 (no lightweight 400mm-equivalent lenses are available)
I guess keep the 70-200 and 150-600, and just take the resolution hit (17MP vs 20MP in crop mode), or replace the 70-200 with the RF 70-200 ($2,700)
Use two adapters (RF-EF, EF-2 inch) with the scope.

So, that's $5,500 + the body or maybe $8,200 + the body if I replace the 70-200 as well, minus anything I could get on the used market. Add to that, a half-dozen batteries since the battery life is bound to be half to a tenth, depending on what you are doing (I have three batteries for the 7D II now).

What would I get for that? Well, I'd have a lot more speed below 29mm-equivalent due to the 15-35 and 24-70, and a bit more range in the walk-around (24-240 vs 29-216, while having less resolution in the fisheye and at 600mm on the 150-600. And I'd have to deal with a likely far-inferior viewfinder experience that would make it much harder to track high-speed subjects, which is a good 90% of what I shoot. But the alternative is I basically keep what I have forever because no upgrade will ever happen.

Doesn't sound like there are many decent options for me.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 7, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> To switch to a full-frame R, I figure:
> 
> Keep the 8-15 and always use it in crop mode (I have no interest in circular fisheye shots).



Sell it and get the Canon 15mm f2.8 fisheye, it is lighter faster and sharper and if you have no interest in circular fisheyes then you will get more for the zoom than the prime costs you. I've had mine out in the rain and heavy dew many times and it is still perfect.


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## AEWest (Feb 7, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> Okay, here's what I have now:
> 
> 20D/5D - semi-retired
> 7D Mark II
> ...


That is unfortunate. I also doubt that Canon will ever announce a 5D5 as they would effectively be shooting themselves in the foot by competing with their own R5. 
You have a substantial investment in glass and I assume you don't shoot much video. So getting an RF mount camera does not provide the benefits that it would for other types of users.
The 5D mark 4 may go on sale once the R5 is introduced so you could pick that up and it will last many years and produce excellent photos.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 7, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Sell it and get the Canon 15mm f2.8 fisheye, it is lighter faster and sharper and if you have no interest in circular fisheyes then you will get more for the zoom than the prime costs you. I've had mine out in the rain and heavy dew many times and it is still perfect.



Funny part is, I had the Sigma 15mm fisheye and sold it when I switched away from the 5D to the 7D mark II. The 8-15 is way, way more flexible. As I said, I use is as a 180° horizontal (wider than 15mm on full-frame) to 22mm rectilinear (narrower than a 15mm on full-frame) and I use it A LOT. Most of the time, I carry either the 8-15 or the 10-18, but not both. Since the zoom fisheye can do just about everything the 10-18 can do *except have stabilization*, I only take the 10-18 when I know I'm going to need the stabilization.


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## Lee Jay (Feb 7, 2020)

AEWest said:


> That is unfortunate. I also doubt that Canon will ever announce a 5D5 as they would effectively be shooting themselves in the foot by competing with their own R5.
> You have a substantial investment in glass and I assume you don't shoot much video. So getting an RF mount camera does not provide the benefits that it would for other types of users.
> The 5D mark 4 may go on sale once the R5 is introduced so you could pick that up and it will last many years and produce excellent photos.



I've taken over 80,000 images and 270 videos on my 7D mark II, so the video features don't interest me very much.

And the 5DIV won't use 5 of my lenses (if you include the 8-15, because it won't use it properly).


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## jd7 (Feb 7, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I also doubt that Canon will ever announce a 5D5 as they would effectively be shooting themselves in the foot by competing with their own R5.


Why? I didn't see why Canon would really care that much whether you buy an R camera or a 5D camera, as long as you but a Canon, so having models which appeal to those who like DSLR as well as models for those ego like mirrorless just gives them more potential sales. Sure, moving people to the R system may have some advantage for Canon in that it might increase chance of lens sales if people decide they want RF lenses too, and of course Canon doesn't want to spend resources developing gear which just doesn't sell much at all, but looking at the bigger picture I would be very surprised if Canon was shooting itself in the foot at all by bringing out a 5D5 ... and in fact it may be the opposite which would be true.

Canon differentiates its products at different price points, as you'd expect, but Canon's competition comes from other manufacturers, not its own products.


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## Nelu (Feb 7, 2020)

slclick said:


> Context sucks with typing, I know. It was not a mean spirited post at all. It was actually in the vein of listing and comparing. I know how it could have come across differently but , well it's how you take things, right?
> 
> (fwiw, I ride Shimano, but never on the road)


I was only bugging you about your profile icon
Your post was just fine...


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## Rbus (Feb 7, 2020)

I like the spec's except it does not mention whether it has a GPS. I use the GPS to locate my landscape photo locations.


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## slclick (Feb 7, 2020)

Nelu said:


> I was only bugging you about your profile icon
> Your post was just fine...


I realized my icon also double as a middle finger and a phallus. Bonus.


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## AEWest (Feb 8, 2020)

jd7 said:


> Why? I didn't see why Canon would really care that much whether you buy an R camera or a 5D camera, as long as you but a Canon, so having models which appeal to those who like DSLR as well as models for those ego like mirrorless just gives them more potential sales. Sure, moving people to the R system may have some advantage for Canon in that it might increase chance of lens sales if people decide they want RF lenses too, and of course Canon doesn't want to spend resources developing gear which just doesn't sell much at all, but looking at the bigger picture I would be very surprised if Canon was shooting itself in the foot at all by bringing out a 5D5 ... and in fact it may be the opposite which would be true.
> 
> Canon differentiates its products at different price points, as you'd expect, but Canon's competition comes from other manufacturers, not its own products.



Superficially I agree with you - if they can make a buck selling a 5D, why not continue produce and sell them? The situation is more complicated than that, and I will illustrate with an example from another industry.

I work in the banking industry (sorry!) and our bank has many retail branches in our metropolitan area. In one particular suburb community we had two branches, and this particular community is growing fairly rapidly due to high costs in the central part of the city pushing people out.

Both branches were profitable, but about 5 years ago we decided to close one of the two and consolidate to the remaining branch about 4 km away. At the time, many of our customers were very angry that we had closed their convenient branch and vowed to close their accounts and go to a competing bank closer to them. Many did.

So why did we do it? There was a technological change that we were trying to stay in front of. Specifically online banking was really starting to negatively impact the walk in traffic numbers. Although the branch was profitable at that point in time, the tea leaves were clear in showing that we would need fewer tellers and other staff to provide banking services in the coming years. Given how the walk in traffic numbers have deteriorated since then, I am certain that had we kept both branches, neither branch would be profitable now.

In terms of Canon, they have openly stated that they want to be the king of mirrorless cameras. If you look at CIPA numbers, it is a smart strategy as DSLR sales have decreased by 32% vs 4.4% for mirrorless in 2019. You don't become king of mirrorless by continuing to develop DSLRs even if some of your existing customers want them. Some of these DSLR customers may leave you, but you may gain back many who had moved to Sony mirrorless over the past few years. In a declining market, you have to rationalize operations and try to take as much market share in the profitable portion as you can.


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## brad-man (Feb 8, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Superficially I agree with you - if they can make a buck selling a 5D, why not continue produce and sell them? The situation is more complicated than that, and I will illustrate with an example from another industry.
> 
> I work in the banking industry (sorry!) and our bank has many retail branches in our metropolitan area. In one particular suburb community we had two branches, and this particular community is growing fairly rapidly due to high costs in the central part of the city pushing people out.
> 
> ...


Poppycock! Your analogy would be apt _only_ if Canon operated a separate factory to produce EF lenses, thereby incurring additional expense. They don't. RF and EF lenses are produced on the same line. So there's that...


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## jd7 (Feb 8, 2020)

AEWest said:


> In terms of Canon, they have openly stated that they want to be the king of mirrorless cameras. If you look at CIPA numbers, it is a smart strategy as DSLR sales have decreased by 32% vs 4.4% for mirrorless in 2019. You don't become king of mirrorless by continuing to develop DSLRs even if some of your existing customers want them. Some of these DSLR customers may leave you, but you may gain back many who had moved to Sony mirrorless over the past few years. In a declining market, you have to rationalize operations and try to take as much market share in the profitable portion as you can.


I understand your story about a bank closing a branch, but the point there was there was a substantial cost saving to be made by closing it and demand for branch services was anticipated to drop, such that your bank expected to be able to service the required volume of branch services with only one branch. The pain point was losing some customers who not only wanted/needed branch services but (suffiiciently) valued having a branch nearer them (despite having internet and no doubt phone banking available) to be motivated to switch to another bank - if there was even another bank offering a suitable option for them. So, your bank estimated the savings it would make versus anticipated drop in profit from losing some customers ( almost all of whom were likely retail customers who don't contribute much to the bank's profit really, is my guess) and decided closing the branch was the way to go.

In Canon's case, the question is whether continuing to develop DSLRs is really an impediment to becoming king of mirrorless. I don't know anything about camera manufacturing really, so I could be way off, but I doubt it very much. I suspect a lot of tech is shared between both lines (ie DSLR and mirrorless), and much of the new tech being developed in future will be able to be used in both lines. And Canon already has the tech and manufacturing equipment for the things which DSLRs need (eg mirror box and OVF) but mirrorless cameras do not. So, while I can see Canon focusing on developing the R system for now (after all, it is new and underdeveloped at this point), I am less confident there is any real downside for them to keep their hand in the DSLR game. The EF lens system is very well developed already so there is no burning need to keep pushing development of EF lenses at the moment even if they keep developing DSLRs. So, in the end it comes down to knowing what it would cost Canon (in terms of resources) to keep developing DSLRs and presumably producing a few more EF lenses (existing models being fine - no need to prioritise developing new ones) versus the expected profit drop if Canon stops selling them. No doubt Canon is better placed than any of us to know the answer to that. However, my feeling remains there is a good chance it will remain profitable for Canon to keep developing DSLRs at least for a while yet - even though I'm sure much of Canon's marketing will be aimed at convincing us all we cannot possibly take a good picture anymore unless we move over the the R system and buy some RF lenses (that only makes sense from Canon's point of view!) - and so doubt Canon continuing to produce DSLRs would be shooting itself in the foot by producing something which competes with Canon's mirrorless line. 

As I said earlier, Canon's competition is other manufacturers. Provided people are buying Canon equipment (be it DSLR, mirrorless or whatever) rather than a competitor's equipment, Canon doesn't really have anything to be too unhappy about. (For the same reason, I've always thought the statements commonly posted online about Canon not bringing out a mirrorless FF camera because it would "cannibalise" Canon's DSLR market were entirely misguided.)


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## djkraq (Feb 8, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> Can someone explain to me why Canon does not confirm if a 5DV will be launched? What do they have to loose? They still don't know if they will do it by now?


Money. They can loose a lot of money if the majority of market demands mirrorless features but they release a DSLR nobody but a small minority will buy


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## AEWest (Feb 8, 2020)

jd7 said:


> I understand your story about a bank closing a branch, but the point there was there was a substantial cost saving to be made by closing it and demand for branch services was anticipated to drop, such that your bank expected to be able to service the required volume of branch services with only one branch. The pain point was losing some customers who not only wanted/needed branch services but (suffiiciently) valued having a branch nearer them (despite having internet and no doubt phone banking available) to be motivated to switch to another bank - if there was even another bank offering a suitable option for them. So, your bank estimated the savings it would make versus anticipated drop in profit from losing some customers ( almost all of whom were likely retail customers who don't contribute much to the bank's profit really, is my guess) and decided closing the branch was the way to go.
> 
> In Canon's case, the question is whether continuing to develop DSLRs is really an impediment to becoming king of mirrorless. I don't know anything about camera manufacturing really, so I could be way off, but I doubt it very much. I suspect a lot of tech is shared between both lines (ie DSLR and mirrorless), and much of the new tech being developed in future will be able to be used in both lines. And Canon already has the tech and manufacturing equipment for the things which DSLRs need (eg mirror box and OVF) but mirrorless cameras do not. So, while I can see Canon focusing on developing the R system for now (after all, it is new and underdeveloped at this point), I am less confident there is any real downside for them to keep their hand in the DSLR game. The EF lens system is very well developed already so there is no burning need to keep pushing development of EF lenses at the moment even if they keep developing DSLRs. So, in the end it comes down to knowing what it would cost Canon (in terms of resources) to keep developing DSLRs and presumably producing a few more EF lenses (existing models being fine - no need to prioritise developing new ones) versus the expected profit drop if Canon stops selling them. No doubt Canon is better placed than any of us to know the answer to that. However, my feeling remains there is a good chance it will remain profitable for Canon to keep developing DSLRs at least for a while yet - even though I'm sure much of Canon's marketing will be aimed at convincing us all we cannot possibly take a good picture anymore unless we move over the the R system and buy some RF lenses (that only makes sense from Canon's point of view!) - and so doubt Canon continuing to produce DSLRs would be shooting itself in the foot by producing something which competes with Canon's mirrorless line.
> 
> As I said earlier, Canon's competition is other manufacturers. Provided people are buying Canon equipment (be it DSLR, mirrorless or whatever) rather than a competitor's equipment, Canon doesn't really have anything to be too unhappy about. (For the same reason, I've always thought the statements commonly posted online about Canon not bringing out a mirrorless FF camera because it would "cannibalise" Canon's DSLR market were entirely misguided.)



Thank you. You do make some good points. The problem I see is that by continuing DSLR development, the EF mount will have to continue. Canon is spending millions on RF mount lens development, and must recoup the costs through the sale of these lenses. So you can see that by introducing new EF cameras, they are in fact competing against the RF mount since the EF cameras obviously cannot fit with RF lenses. 

They then have the unenviable situation of making duplicate lenses for two systems, in a sharply declining market. So if overall sales of, say, 70-200 f2.8 lens is shrinking from 20,000 units to 15,000 units per year, you are now splitting that lower sales volume between two different lenses, reducing economies of scale and thus increasing the per unit cost of each lens.

But only Canon knows the exact market situation that they are facing, and it will be interesting to see how they respond - whether to bring out a new 5D or not.


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## Nuno Oliveira (Feb 8, 2020)

All of you guys make very good points. I wonder if Canon has any interest in following threads like this.


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## Jethro (Feb 8, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> All of you guys make very good points. I wonder if Canon has any interest in following threads like this.


If so they would be assigning the holiday kid to do it ...


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## Kit. (Feb 8, 2020)

slclick said:


> I realized my icon also double as a middle finger and a phallus. Bonus.


And as a hedgehog.


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## UlricWolf (Feb 8, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> I have used many EVF cameras, since the 1980s. I own several. I don't own an EVF ILC because, when I test them in the stores, they have all the same problems all the EVF cameras I've ever owned have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I dont need to show You nothing, because I clearly see that 1) You are talkting bull* and trying to compare technologies witch change not by decades but by months 2) Keep using Your DSLRs, thats Your preference, good. But dont talk what You dont know.


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## StoicalEtcher (Feb 8, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Thank you. You do make some good points. The problem I see is that by continuing DSLR development, the EF mount will have to continue. Canon is spending millions on RF mount lens development, and must recoup the costs through the sale of these lenses. So you can see that by introducing new EF cameras, they are in fact competing against the RF mount since the EF cameras obviously cannot fit with RF lenses.
> 
> They then have the unenviable situation of making duplicate lenses for two systems, in a sharply declining market. So if overall sales of, say, 70-200 f2.8 lens is shrinking from 20,000 units to 15,000 units per year, you are now splitting that lower sales volume between two different lenses, reducing economies of scale and thus increasing the per unit cost of each lens.
> 
> But only Canon knows the exact market situation that they are facing, and it will be interesting to see how they respond - whether to bring out a new 5D or not.


True, but only to some extent. I don't think Canon has to recoup all the RF mount development costs by selling RF lenses (- though I'm sure they would be happy to) - after all, they can just as easily recover the costs through selling EF lenses too. EF lens development is surely by now mostly all amortised or recovered, so all EF sales help cover the costs of RF development too. Canon may consider itself lucky the it can try out something new, maybe the future, yet has a stalwart product range, all paid for already, to help contribute to the 'new' product development costs.
Just a thought..
Cheers.


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## BillB (Feb 8, 2020)

AEWest said:


> But only Canon knows the exact market situation that they are facing, and it will be interesting to see how they respond - whether to bring out a new 5D or not.


As is often the case, the devil is in the details.


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## unfocused (Feb 8, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Superficially I agree with you - if they can make a buck selling a 5D, why not continue produce and sell them? The situation is more complicated than that, and I will illustrate with an example from another industry.
> 
> I work in the banking industry (sorry!) and our bank has many retail branches in our metropolitan area. In one particular suburb community we had two branches, and this particular community is growing fairly rapidly due to high costs in the central part of the city pushing people out.
> 
> ...


As others have said, you analogy is flawed. Physical banks are dying, so the decision to close one branch was inevitable. In a few years, the other branch may close as well. Your situation is analogous to cameras only in the sense that compact cameras are being displaced by cell phones. So, Canon has scaled back on point and shoots because there are now about as many people using compact cameras as there are people walking into a bank. 

I think you make the same mistake many people on this forum do, which is to assume that Canon can control the choices of consumers. Whereas in reality, Canon and all camera manufacturing are reacting to consumers. Canon saw a growing demand for mirrorless, so they jumped into the market in a big way to snatch as much of the market as possible. I doubt if they really care which format people choose, they just want to make sure they choose Canon. Of course they are going to make their products as attractive as possible, but that is designed to sell cameras and lenses, not migrate people to one format over another.

The EF line of lenses is mature. There is no urgency to add more lenses at this point. Their DSLR lineup is mature. They probably won't be adding new models to the lineup. But, that doesn't mean they won't update the current models in order to win more sales. We don't know anything about the unique costs and shared costs of multiple formats. But, it may not be as significant as people assume. Much of the research and development of one line is probably beneficial to other lines and will allow for new innovations and improvements down the road.

In addition, none of this takes into account the impact of other business divisions. Canon is investing heavily in security and medical lines, no doubt some of the research and development in their cameras and lenses benefit these lines as well and allows them to spread their development costs over a broader base. 

The straight line shift from DSLRs to mirrorless only exists in the minds of forum experts. In the real world, it is far more complicated and far too early to make such predictions.


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## AEWest (Feb 8, 2020)

unfocused said:


> As others have said, you analogy is flawed. Physical banks are dying, so the decision to close one branch was inevitable. In a few years, the other branch may close as well. Your situation is analogous to cameras only in the sense that compact cameras are being displaced by cell phones. So, Canon has scaled back on point and shoots because there are now about as many people using compact cameras as there are people walking into a bank.
> 
> I think you make the same mistake many people on this forum do, which is to assume that Canon can control the choices of consumers. Whereas in reality, Canon and all camera manufacturing are reacting to consumers. Canon saw a growing demand for mirrorless, so they jumped into the market in a big way to snatch as much of the market as possible. I doubt if they really care which format people choose, they just want to make sure they choose Canon. Of course they are going to make their products as attractive as possible, but that is designed to sell cameras and lenses, not migrate people to one format over another.
> 
> ...


But that's what forums are for! The only way we will know for sure if I am right or wrong is if the new 5D comes out or not. So far, I have seen no formal indication that it will be introduced.


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## unfocused (Feb 8, 2020)

AEWest said:


> But that's what forums are for! The only way we will know for sure if I am right or wrong is if the new 5D comes out or not. So far, I have seen no formal indication that it will be introduced.


Yes, only time will tell.


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## David_E (Feb 9, 2020)

Reading this thread is driving me nuts. For god’s sake, people, learn the difference between _loose_ and _lose_! Crappy usage ruins your credibility. Here’s a hint. _Loose_ means _not tight._ So _What have they got to loose_... is nonsensical.


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## Joules (Feb 9, 2020)

David_E said:


> Reading this thread is driving me nuts. For god’s sake, people, learn the difference between _loose_ and _lose_! Crappy usage ruins your credibility. Here’s a hint. _Loose_ means _not tight._ So _What have they got to loose_... is nonsensical.


This is a forum with many international members. And it's a forum where many probably type on their smartphone. The things autocorrect or small mistyped can change are often missed when you don't proof read a post. People's credibility should not depend on the small spelling mistakes they make. 

Anyway, such hints can certainly be given with less aggressive tone. Your ruining the intended effect if you teach something by talking down to somebody.

- And yes, I messed that word up on purpose


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## wanderer23 (Feb 9, 2020)

Do we have any speculation or educated guess about whether the 4k60p will be full sensor readout, or super35 crop like the s1h? I do assume the 4k120p will be a heavy crop perhaps down to 2-3x crop factor...


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 9, 2020)

wanderer23 said:


> Do we have any speculation or educated guess about whether the 4k60p will be full sensor readout, or super35 crop like the s1h? I do assume the 4k120p will be a heavy crop perhaps down to 2-3x crop factor...



And if it's full sensor, is it really full sensor with downscaling, or the usual line/column skipping and pixel binning? 
Personally, I would appreciate the option to have a crop mode, my goal for this year is to make more macro video and a crop would help a lot with that. As would IBIS


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 9, 2020)

David_E said:


> Reading this thread is driving me nuts. For god’s sake, people, learn the difference between _loose_ and _lose_! Crappy usage ruins your credibility. Here’s a hint. _Loose_ means _not tight._ So _What have they got to loose_... is nonsensical.



It isnt nonsensical. The answer is 'arrows'.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 9, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Thank you. You do make some good points. The problem I see is that by continuing DSLR development, the EF mount will have to continue. Canon is spending millions on RF mount lens development, and must recoup the costs through the sale of these lenses. So you can see that by introducing new EF cameras, they are in fact competing against the RF mount since the EF cameras obviously cannot fit with RF lenses.
> 
> They then have the unenviable situation of making duplicate lenses for two systems, in a sharply declining market. So if overall sales of, say, 70-200 f2.8 lens is shrinking from 20,000 units to 15,000 units per year, you are now splitting that lower sales volume between two different lenses, reducing economies of scale and thus increasing the per unit cost of each lens.
> 
> But only Canon knows the exact market situation that they are facing, and it will be interesting to see how they respond - whether to bring out a new 5D or not.



When all of the R&D has already been spent on the EF lens, you're not increasing the per unit cost of each lens by having both RF and EF lenses. That would only be the case if you continue to update the EF line with new lens designs. In the end, revenue is revenue and a sale is a sale. If Canon has already paid off their R&D expense for an EF lens, then the increased profit from selling that lens can be applied to the cost of present or future R&D for the RF line.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 9, 2020)

AEWest said:


> But that's what forums are for! The only way we will know for sure if I am right or wrong is if the new 5D comes out or not. So far, I have seen no formal indication that it will be introduced.



Not exactly. A 5D Mark V might be shelved for a wide variety of reasons unrelated to your explanation.


----------



## David_E (Feb 9, 2020)

Joules said:


> _This is a forum with many international members. _


I wasn’t talking about non-native speakers, whom I would never criticize for such an error. I wasn’t talking about typographical errors or auto-correct errors. I was talking about unread native speakers whose consistently poor usage damages their credibility by raising the question _What else don’t they know_?


----------



## David_E (Feb 9, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> It isnt nonsensical. The answer is 'arrows'.


Of course. How _could_ I have missed that!?


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 9, 2020)

David_E said:


> I wasn’t talking about non-native speakers, whom I would never criticize for such an error. I wasn’t talking about typographical errors or auto-correct errors. I was talking about unread native speakers whose consistently poor usage damages their credibility by raising the question _What else don’t they know_?


Discrimination based on educational Level isn't cool, Sir.


----------



## Nuno Oliveira (Feb 9, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> All of you guys make very good points. I wonder if Canon has any interest in following threads like this.





Jethro said:


> If so they would be assigning the holiday kid to do it ...


I suppose they care about what their clients think, no?


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Feb 9, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Discrimination based on educational Level isn't cool, Sir.



A person’s writing can be full of error, even with a PHD. I have never needed perfect spelling and grammar as as programmer or photographer. Dyslexia causes issues only to people on forums, never in professional life.


----------



## Nuno Oliveira (Feb 9, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> Can someone explain to me why Canon does not confirm if a 5DV will be launched? What do they have to loose? They still don't know if they will do it by now?





djkraq said:


> Money. They can loose a lot of money if the majority of market demands mirrorless features but they release a DSLR nobody but a small minority will buy


I meant launching the 5DV as well as the R5. The R5 is about to be launched anyway, so they have that slice of the market covered.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 9, 2020)

David_E said:


> Reading this thread is driving me nuts. For god’s sake, people, learn the difference between _loose_ and _lose_! Crappy usage ruins your credibility. Here’s a hint. _Loose_ means _not tight._ So _What have they got to loose_... is nonsensical.



Then there are the charming geniuses who take a thread about a camera entirely off topic. That makes this forum awesome!


----------



## AEWest (Feb 9, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Not exactly. A 5D Mark V might be shelved for a wide variety of reasons unrelated to your explanation.


You are correct - there could be other reasons not to develop a 5D5. 

The primary alternative reason I can think of is very simple: collapsing demand for DSLRs in the market place. According to CIPA, there was a 32% decline in DSLR sales in 2019. Obviously Canon is much more attuned to the market than any customer is, and they may decide that there is just not enough demand to warrant developing a 5D5. They may have even been working on a 5D5 but cancelled the project given what has been happening in the market. We simply don't know and may never know.

Hopefully we get some further information when the R5 is introduced.


----------



## David_E (Feb 9, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> _Discrimination based on educational Level isn't cool, Sir_.


Nor is comically pompous writing, "Sir."

As for "discrimination," I am guilty of no such thing in the negative sense that you use the word. Everyone discriminates; the word means to choose, to evaluate, to decide. You discriminated by choosing to take me to task, for example. We all employ various means in deciding whose writing we will give weight to and whose we will be dubious of. Given two choices, a literate person and a semi-literate person, all else being equal, I will likely opt for the literate person. I reiterate that I am not talking about simple spelling errors or unnoticed auto-correction. Not knowing about advice/advise, its/it's, loose/lose, then/than, there/their, your/you're, et al., is not a spelling error. It is a sign of poor literacy, which interrupts the discourse for careful readers and causes one to wonder what else the writer does not know. I now gift you with the last word on this topic.


----------



## David_E (Feb 9, 2020)

AEWest said:


> _You are correct - there could be other reasons not to develop a 5D5.
> 
> The primary alternative reason I can think of is very simple: collapsing demand for DSLRs in the market place. According to CIPA, there was a 32% decline in DSLR sales in 2019._
> 
> ...


----------



## David_E (Feb 9, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Then there are the charming geniuses who take a thread about a camera entirely off topic. That makes this forum awesome!


Agreed. Life would be unbearably dull if it were always on-topic!


----------



## David the street guy (Feb 9, 2020)

David_E said:


> Reading this thread is driving me nuts. For god’s sake, people, learn the difference between _loose_ and _lose_! Crappy usage ruins your credibility. Here’s a hint. _Loose_ means _not tight._ So _What have they got to loose_... is nonsensical.


All of us for whom english is not the mother tongue or who were not fortunate enough to learn it properly are contrite for being inferior humans without decent credibility.
Sorry for our crappy use of such a beautiful language.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 9, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> A person’s writing can be full of error, even with a PHD. I have never needed perfect spelling and grammar as as programmer or photographer. Dyslexia causes issues only to people on forums, never in professional life.


Yeah, Tell this to the OP. He would have an opinion on that.


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 9, 2020)

David_E said:


> Nor is comically pompous writing, "Sir."
> 
> As for "discrimination," I am guilty of no such thing in the negative sense that you use the word. Everyone discriminates; the word means to choose, to evaluate, to decide. You discriminated by choosing to take me to task, for example. We all employ various means in deciding whose writing we will give weight to and whose we will be dubious of. Given two choices, a literate person and a semi-literate person, all else being equal, I will likely opt for the literate person. I reiterate that I am not talking about simple spelling errors or unnoticed auto-correction. Not knowing about advice/advise, its/it's, loose/lose, then/than, there/their, your/you're, et al., is not a spelling error. It is a sign of poor literacy, which interrupts the discourse for careful readers and causes one to wonder what else the writer does not know. I now gift you with the last word on this topic.



I see nothing comical in calling a person Sir or Madam. Your point of View on essence of discrimination may require a quick refresh. Your personal preferences in this case are not very well aligned with modern age cultural values and hopefully CR community. Discrimination not to be tolerated. Thank you.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 10, 2020)

I think you are partially correct with growth in smartphones. However, that same CIPA report shows only a 4.4% decrease in mirrorless camera of sales which suggests that mirrorless are taking the lions share of ILC sales.


----------



## DarkPhalanx (Feb 10, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> ...then a couple months until they start taking orders, then a couple months until delivery! ;-)




Absolutely not a problem since July is the rumoured release period. Gives me time to put the cash aside. Until then, I just keep shooting with the old rigs.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 10, 2020)

AEWest said:


> You are correct - there could be other reasons not to develop a 5D5.
> 
> The primary alternative reason I can think of is very simple: collapsing demand for DSLRs in the market place. According to CIPA, there was a 32% decline in DSLR sales in 2019. Obviously Canon is much more attuned to the market than any customer is, and they may decide that there is just not enough demand to warrant developing a 5D5. They may have even been working on a 5D5 but cancelled the project given what has been happening in the market. We simply don't know and may never know.
> 
> Hopefully we get some further information when the R5 is introduced.


While your numbers are correct, the problem is that it's a catch-all figure. Every DSLR from $400 to $6000 is included. The vast majority of total sales is in the lower end. Not evenly spread across the board. While I'm not suggesting the sales of upper level DSLRs hasn't come down, they have not anywhere near the extent the lower range has. The lower end casual users dont rebuy every few years, many are just using phones, and others are buying replacements in smaller more compact MILCS. Those upper end users (daily professionals) still widely use what they know and love and are far more likely to want to stay in what is a familiar feel that will mount natively to big glass libraries they already have.. I'm still betting we see at least one more 5D body before retirement. The 1DX and 5D lines will be the last DSLRs to go.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 10, 2020)

David the street guy said:


> All of us for whom english is not the mother tongue or who were not fortunate enough to learn it properly are contrite for being inferior humans without decent credibility.
> Sorry for our crappy use of such a beautiful language.



My comment. I think everyone should strive for their best but many don't, and I accept that. I would never look down on anyone who is handicapped by ESL no matter how challenged they might be. What matters is that they contribute positively as best they can. To fall back on, everyone is using crappy grammar etc., is a cop out to justify laziness or indifference and is not admirable to me, but that's just me. Never the less, within respectable norms each of us has a right to project whatever image we wish for the world to see. Freedom is precious. 

Jack


----------



## SteveC (Feb 10, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> My comment. I think everyone should strive for their best but many don't, and I accept that. I would never look down on anyone who is handicapped by ESL no matter how challenged they might be. What matters is that they contribute positively as best they can. To fall back on, everyone is using crappy grammar etc., is a cop out to justify laziness or indifference and is not admirable to me, but that's just me. Never the less, within respectable norms each of us has a right to project whatever image we wish for the world to see. Freedom is precious.
> 
> Jack



I can generally tell those who had to learn English from those who were born with it but don't know how to spell. In the first case the sentence structure often reflects their first language. It comes across as odd to me but makes sense, ultimately, when I think about it. I actually enjoy reading that sort of thing. Bad spelllers, if I imagine someone actually repeating their sentences to me verbally, sound perfectly normal.

Of course, everyone makes typos. When I see a _consistent_ occurrence of the same error, over and over...that's when I figure someone is ignorant. Even then, though, I don't assume they're ignorant of their topic just because they're ignorant of a fine point of _written_ English. That only comes about when it's clear they really are ignorant. I try to look past the English mistakes (difficult as that can sometimes be).

Sometimes when I get the sense someone is generally careful, but is making some mistake, I figure he (or she) might actually appreciate the correction and will offer it.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 10, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I can generally tell those who had to learn English from those who were born with it but don't know how to spell. In the first case the sentence structure often reflects their first language. It comes across as odd to me but makes sense, ultimately, when I think about it. I actually enjoy reading that sort of thing. Bad spelllers, if I imagine someone actually repeating their sentences to me verbally, sound perfectly normal.
> 
> Of course, everyone makes typos. When I see a _consistent_ occurrence of the same error, over and over...that's when I figure someone is ignorant. Even then, though, I don't assume they're ignorant of their topic just because they're ignorant of a fine point of _written_ English. That only comes about when it's clear they really are ignorant. I try to look past the English mistakes (difficult as that can sometimes be).
> 
> Sometimes when I get the sense someone is generally careful, but is making some mistake, I figure he (or she) might actually appreciate the correction and will offer it.


I agree and it all boils down to just doing the best we can and being tolerant and respectful and trying to contribute positively. CR folk generally are great. And I love to hear genuine criticism since it offers me hope of getting better. Unkind/inaccurate criticism I just ignore.  

Jack


----------



## AlanF (Feb 10, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I can generally tell those who had to learn English from those who were born with it but don't know how to spell. In the first case the sentence structure often reflects their first language. It comes across as odd to me but makes sense, ultimately, when I think about it. I actually enjoy reading that sort of thing. Bad spelllers, if I imagine someone actually repeating their sentences to me verbally, sound perfectly normal.
> 
> Of course, everyone makes typos. When I see a _consistent_ occurrence of the same error, over and over...that's when I figure someone is ignorant. Even then, though, I don't assume they're ignorant of their topic just because they're ignorant of a fine point of _written_ English. That only comes about when it's clear they really are ignorant. I try to look past the English mistakes (difficult as that can sometimes be).
> 
> Sometimes when I get the sense someone is generally careful, but is making some mistake, I figure he (or she) might actually appreciate the correction and will offer it.


Spelling mistakes commonly occur because of dyslexia rather than ignorance. Some of my smartest students have been dyslexic.


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## Jethro (Feb 10, 2020)

Nuno Oliveira said:


> I suppose they care about what their clients think, no?


We're a very particular (and small) sub-section of their audience. Would they keep a general eye on these sort of sites? Yes, but probably mainly to track what 'rumours' are circulating. For particular feedback (especially on technical issues) the advice has always been to go directly to Canon Support and not assume they are monitoring particular threads here. Otherwise, they will have their own ideas on how to gauge the views of the buying public. They know already that _everyone_ would like as many features as possible crammed into as small (and light but heavily weatherproofed and with two card slots) as possible a body, selling for as little as possible. Deciding which of these features to include in particular bodies at different price points, and also long-term strategies such as the RF mount and mirrorless generally, go through very different and very back-room processes.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 10, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Spelling mistakes commonly occur because of dyslexia rather than ignorance. Some of my smartest students have been dyslexic.



The instructor of my smartest students had worse spelling than his students. Guess who that was. The white boards didn't have spell check!

But on dyslexia, maybe I have an excuse, I mix up B's and P's. Now, what's the thread about ... oh, Canon R5? What's that got to do with spelling? Where's a newer rumour?!! I want more rumours!!

Jack


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Feb 10, 2020)

I am keen to find out the size of this, if it is as small as the R I will be disappointed. I would like to get my foot in the door on the R side, but all the super tele's and big cameras are on EF. A physically big R5 and something something 400mm would get me into the mirrorless camp, especially with that wee fatty 70-200 that I can stuff in my backpack.


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## Trankilstef (Feb 11, 2020)

It was rumored to be announced around february 13th... In 2 days or so... No news about a potential event, no picture leaked, etc. Is it still relevant to wait for an announcement around the 13th?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 11, 2020)

AEWest said:


> You are correct - there could be other reasons not to develop a 5D5.
> 
> The primary alternative reason I can think of is very simple: collapsing demand for DSLRs in the market place. According to CIPA, there was a 32% decline in DSLR sales in 2019. Obviously Canon is much more attuned to the market than any customer is, and they may decide that there is just not enough demand to warrant developing a 5D5. They may have even been working on a 5D5 but cancelled the project given what has been happening in the market. We simply don't know and may never know.
> 
> Hopefully we get some further information when the R5 is introduced.



Cameras like the 5D series have typically consisted of much less than 32% of Canon's DSLR sales, which have been dominated by entry level Rebels. The drop in overall DSLR sales may or may not be reflected in the sales numbers of more advanced top end cameras. Since the last 5-series and 1-series were released in 2016, and since sales are generally much higher the first year or so after a model is released than they are for that same model in years two, three, four, etc., even Canon may not fully know how a one or two year trend will affect their lower volume high end bodies to be introduced in the near future.

Based on statements made in the most recent financial report, Canon leadership seems to believe that even as the overall market for ILCs, and entry level DSLRs in particular, contracts, they expect the enthusiast/pro segment of the market to contract less or even remain fairly stable.


----------



## Dequals61 (Feb 11, 2020)

Just my two cents worth. I think the DSLR basically is dead as far as the future of cameras go. Now if for some mythical reason Canon was not able to adapt their EF line of lenses to the R bodies then I would agree that the future would hold a 5DV for it would take some time to rebuild the RF lens line-up. Canon has always been about the glass not the bodies. So with this scenario being erased a 5DV doesn't make much sense. The elephant in the room between mirrorless and DSLR's is EVF refresh rates, shutter speed and for some buffering capacity for tracking fast action photography. The 5D series was never developed with this in mind to begin with so it would not fulfill any of the current limitations that a DSLR has over a mirrorless. There is a big difference between personal preference and performance. The EOS R was basically a mirrorless 5DIV replacement, thou admittedly in a less than stellar configuration for some, (me included). I'm sure when the automobile first appeared many folks saw no reason to replace the horse and buggy. These machines where too expensive, complicated and you now had to take your transportation somewhere else to fuel it instead of be able to feed it yourself. Guess who won.


----------



## Dequals61 (Feb 11, 2020)

richperson said:


> I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Maybe you could clarify.


I was simply agreeing with your comment.


----------



## AEWest (Feb 11, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Cameras like the 5D series have typically consisted of much less than 32% of Canon's DSLR sales, which have been dominated by entry level Rebels. The drop in overall DSLR sales may or may not be reflected in the sales numbers of more advanced top end cameras. Since the last 5-series and 1-series were released in 2016, and since sales are generally much higher the first year or so after a model is released than they are for that same model in years two, three, four, etc., even Canon may not fully know how a one or two year trend will affect their lower volume high end bodies to be introduced in the near future.
> 
> Based on statements made in the most recent financial report, Canon leadership seems to believe that even as the overall market for ILCs, and entry level DSLRs in particular, contracts, they expect the enthusiast/pro segment of the market to contract less or even remain fairly stable.





Michael Clark said:


> Cameras like the 5D series have typically consisted of much less than 32% of Canon's DSLR sales, which have been dominated by entry level Rebels. The drop in overall DSLR sales may or may not be reflected in the sales numbers of more advanced top end cameras. Since the last 5-series and 1-series were released in 2016, and since sales are generally much higher the first year or so after a model is released than they are for that same model in years two, three, four, etc., even Canon may not fully know how a one or two year trend will affect their lower volume high end bodies to be introduced in the near future.
> 
> Based on statements made in the most recent financial report, Canon leadership seems to believe that even as the overall market for ILCs, and entry level DSLRs in particular, contracts, they expect the enthusiast/pro segment of the market to contract less or even remain fairly stable.



What is interesting is that Canon appears to be set to introduce the updated 850D/rebel. Maybe they are holding their own at this end of the market.


----------



## David_E (Feb 11, 2020)

Trankilstef said:


> _It was rumored to be announced around february 13th... In 2 days or so... No news about a potential event, no picture leaked, etc. Is it still relevant [sic] to wait for an announcement around the 13th?_


What does _not_ waiting for two days mean? Suicide? Buying a different camera that might give you suicidal thoughts due to buyer’s remorse when you learn what Canon has? I would counsel patience.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 11, 2020)

David_E said:


> What does _not_ waiting for two days mean? Suicide? Buying a different camera that might give you suicidal thoughts due to buyer’s remorse when you learn what Canon has? I would counsel patience.


Some people are so hardhearted!  I think we should start stamping our feet until we get another rumour.

Jack


----------



## Trankilstef (Feb 11, 2020)

David_E said:


> What does _not_ waiting for two days mean? Suicide? Buying a different camera that might give you suicidal thoughts due to buyer’s remorse when you learn what Canon has? I would counsel patience.


I'm just asking myself and others if so close to the rumored announcement date; can we still expect it to be accurate or no. Cause sometimes we already have leaked photos or other informations at this point. Not talking about anything else. Suicide? What the hell?


----------



## David_E (Feb 11, 2020)

Trankilstef said:


> I'm just asking myself and others if so close to the rumored announcement date; can we still expect it to be accurate or no. Cause sometimes we already have leaked photos or other informations at this point. Not talking about anything else. Suicide? What the hell?


How could _anyone_ here know if the rumor will be proven correct? Glad to hear you’re staying around, regardless. Still counseling patience.


----------



## unfocused (Feb 11, 2020)

Trankilstef said:


> I'm just asking myself and others if so close to the rumored announcement date; can we still expect it to be accurate or no. Cause sometimes we already have leaked photos or other informations at this point. Not talking about anything else. Suicide? What the hell?


I don't think this is an unreasonable question. Although it should be directed at @Canon Rumors Guy. No one else on this forum would have a clue. (Unless, of course, Canon Australia jumps the gun again.)


----------



## Joules (Feb 11, 2020)

unfocused said:


> (Unless, of course, Canon Australia jumps the gun again.)


I browsed their site today, didn't find anything exciting yet. Hopefully they'll do us a favor again


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 11, 2020)

Guess I should have dropped my Dave Chappelle meme in here instead


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 11, 2020)

The Nikon D6 might be getting its ONE day in the sun tonight/tomorrow and then Canon steals it all back for the next several weeks


----------



## TMACIOSZEK (Feb 11, 2020)

Two days till the suggested announcement date... you could cut the anticipation with a knife.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 11, 2020)

Dequals61 said:


> Just my two cents worth. I think the DSLR basically is dead as far as the future of cameras go. Now if for some mythical reason Canon was not able to adapt their EF line of lenses to the R bodies then I would agree that the future would hold a 5DV for it would take some time to rebuild the RF lens line-up. Canon has always been about the glass not the bodies. So with this scenario being erased a 5DV doesn't make much sense. The elephant in the room between mirrorless and DSLR's is EVF refresh rates, shutter speed and for some buffering capacity for tracking fast action photography. The 5D series was never developed with this in mind to begin with so it would not fulfill any of the current limitations that a DSLR has over a mirrorless. There is a big difference between personal preference and performance. The EOS R was basically a mirrorless 5DIV replacement, thou admittedly in a less than stellar configuration for some, (me included). I'm sure when the automobile first appeared many folks saw no reason to replace the horse and buggy. These machines where too expensive, complicated and you now had to take your transportation somewhere else to fuel it instead of be able to feed it yourself. Guess who won.



So are you saying *Equus ferus caballus* are now extinct?


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 11, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I think you are partially correct with growth in smartphones. However, that same CIPA report shows only a 4.4% decrease in mirrorless camera of sales which suggests that mirrorless are taking the lions share of ILC sales.



No it doesn't. If mirrorless is only 25-30% of the market and shrinks by 4.4%, the total market would need to shrink by 64-70% for mirrorless to be about 80% (i.e. "lion's share") of the market. It will probably eventually get there, but not now or in the next couple of years.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 11, 2020)

AEWest said:


> What is interesting is that Canon appears to be set to introduce the updated 850D/rebel. Maybe they are holding their own at this end of the market.




The typical refresh rate for the xx0D series has been 12-18 months. It's been 36 months since the 800D was released. Interpret that however you wish.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 11, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> So are you saying *Equus ferus caballus* are now extinct?


What, I have one not far away from me. Definitely not dead.  

Jack


----------



## AEWest (Feb 11, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The typical refresh rate for the xx0D series has been 12-18 months. It's been 36 months since the 800D was released. Interpret that however you wish.


The fact that Canon is (presumably) going ahead with this entry level DSLR indicates to me that Canon still sees a market for it. 

Some had surmised that the entry level portion of the ILC market would be the first category susceptible to takeover by mirrorless. But Canon must still be selling alot of these.


----------



## BillB (Feb 12, 2020)

AEWest said:


> The fact that Canon is (presumably) going ahead with this entry level DSLR indicates to me that Canon still sees a market for it.
> 
> Some had surmised that the entry level portion of the ILC market would be the first category susceptible to takeover by mirrorless. But Canon must still be selling alot of these.


At this point, Canon is pretty much the only game in town for entry level DS,LRs. If the other manufacturers are going to leave those chips on the table, Canon might as well pick them up.


----------



## Rbus (Feb 12, 2020)

Whats happening to the EOS R5.Everything appears to have dried up. No rumors, no photo's, nothing. It is less then 48 hours until they are "supposed" to announce it.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 12, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> What, I have one not far away from me. Definitely not dead.
> 
> Jack



Well, you did argue that the DSLR is "dead" while equating it to the horse...


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 12, 2020)

AEWest said:


> The fact that Canon is (presumably) going ahead with this entry level DSLR indicates to me that Canon still sees a market for it.
> 
> Some had surmised that the entry level portion of the ILC market would be the first category susceptible to takeover by mirrorless. But Canon must still be selling alot of these.





BillB said:


> At this point, Canon is pretty much the only game in town for entry level DS,LRs. If the other manufacturers are going to leave those chips on the table, Canon might as well pick them up.



Yet even Canon has slowed down the refresh rate of their mid-entry level Rebels.

Look at the longevity of each model in that series before the replacement was introduced. Canon tends to keep the two most recent xx0D models in their active catalog, with the older of the two dropping off when another model is introduced. The Rebel T4i/650D was an anomaly that had problems with the rubber panels on the exterior turning white after being exposed to human perspiration, and a few people had allergic reactions to the material used. There wasn't much difference between it and the Rebel T5i/700D other than the material used in the rubber panels.

Digital Rebel/300D: 18 months
Rebel XT/350D: 18 months
Rebel Xti/400D: 19 months
Rebel XSi/450D: 14 months
Rebel T1i/500D: 11 months
Rebel T2i/550D: 12 months
Rebel T3i/600D: 16 months
Rebel T4i/650D: 9 months
Rebel T5i/700D: 23 months
Rebel T6i/750D: 24 months
Rebel T7i/800D: 36 months and counting until the official announcement of the T8i/850D...


----------



## Digiridoo (Feb 12, 2020)

When was the release date, April 1. ?


----------



## Gazwas (Feb 12, 2020)

Nokishita leaked UK prices for the upcoming Canon products but still no further information on the R5?

This is all too weird considering the announcement is tomorrow. Looks like there either won't be anything R5 related or very vague development story considering there is zero info out there. 

Was the R announcement this secretive or was more know at this stage?


----------



## slclick (Feb 12, 2020)

Rbus said:


> Whats happening to the EOS R5.Everything appears to have dried up. No rumors, no photo's, nothing. It is less then 48 hours until they are "supposed" to announce it.


Ran the gamut on it early. Doesn't really change anything.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 12, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Well, you did argue that the DSLR is "dead" while equating it to the horse...



I did??? Me thinks, not JDW.  

Jack


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 12, 2020)

I was just looking at my avatar and musing ... I'm surprised I haven't been called "pecker head". Perhaps I need to start saying more controversial things.

CR for humour or is it humor. 

Me too - where are the rumours with more substance?? Maybe someone is rolling on the floor right now laughing; the sadistic so and so.

Jack


----------



## BillB (Feb 12, 2020)

There have been several flaky aspects to the F5/F6 rumors including astonishing specs, possible confusion over the specs between the two cameras and some wierdness about announcement dates, with an F5 "announcement" Feb 13 and camera availability in July and the F6 being announced in May and available in June. Maybe the Feb 13 announcement was a piece of this rumor package that was wrong. Or maybe Canon has been very good at keeping a lid on what will happen tomorrow. If so, it seems unlikely that an announcement tomorrow will have much specific information.


----------



## Stanri010 (Feb 12, 2020)

We got Nikon's press release.

It's time we got Canons!


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## Michael Clark (Feb 12, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> I did??? Me thinks, not JDW.
> 
> Jack



OK. You didn't. Dequals61 did argue that the DSLR is "dead" while equating it to the horse... and you replied to my comment to Dequals61 asking if he thought *Equus ferus caballus* are now extinct?


----------



## Durf (Feb 12, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> I was just looking at my avatar and musing ... I'm surprised I haven't been called "pecker head". Perhaps I need to start saying more controversial things.
> 
> CR for humour or is it humor.
> 
> ...



I've noticed some of your post are a little pileated....

I'm happy with the DSLR gear I have now but I must say; the R5 is the first mirrorless camera that has really sparked my curiosity and I'm actually looking forward to seeing/hearing some hands on reviews about it.


----------



## ThruMyLens (Feb 12, 2020)

These specs are exciting. Do we think Canon will bring this to market at 5Dish price point of around $3500.00?


----------



## Phil Indeblanc (Feb 13, 2020)

If it has the locked out issue the Sony A7R2/3 has, which basically you cannot do anything with the camera settings until the buffer is clear...
If it cannot play back a photo in 1:1 view without seconds of waiting, which the A7R takes,(5D3/4 are super fast in display and nothing is locked out) and if the electronics are overly noticeable vs the mechanical speed....

Then I may as well not update the gear I have. But if these "simple" issues, and the AA filter is removed, I have no issues getting the R5 series with a lens or two. I care ZERO about video, but pretty great for folks who use it.


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

And in other news, EOS Utility now works with OSX Catalina! (Oh those blessed lens corrections)


----------



## slclick (Feb 13, 2020)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> If it has the locked out issue the Sony A7R2/3 has, which basically you cannot do anything with the camera settings until the buffer is clear...
> If it cannot play back a photo in 1:1 view without seconds of waiting, which the A7R takes,(5D3/4 are super fast in display and nothing is locked out) and if the electronics are overly noticeable vs the mechanical speed....
> 
> Then I may as well not update the gear I have. But if these "simple" issues, and the AA filter is removed, I have no issues getting the R5 series with a lens or two. I care ZERO about video, but pretty great for folks who use it.


Th AA will not be removed, that is not the Canon way however it MAY be getting the gentler AA the 1DX3 has.


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## JP (Feb 13, 2020)

Wow... do I need 40mp for my wedding studio clients..? Nope.. They don't want anything submitted larger than 12! I usually give them reduced file sizes that are about 10MP (they are happy if I submitted 8mp!) Do I need 12 or 20 fps..?? Not really... I'm not shooting who knows what is needed for 20fps... I usually have my 7DMk2 set to 4fps, because of the flash recycle time.. and shooting bursts faster than that, leads to black or darker frames.. When I shot for the newspaper, I used EOS 1n bodies.. and shot usually 1 shot at a time... and rarely needed my 6fps top speed.. I didn't miss much action, because I also had a camera with a very responsive shutter release.. For some reason, Canon has always made the shutter lag time Looooooong on the 5 series bodies.. making them pretty much useless for basketball, baseball.. volleyball... or some reaction / jube shots from spectators or the athletes.. It doesn't really matter all that much.. a MS of a loss in time capturing a moment, can be the difference between a good shot and a useless shot.. and the things that I would really like to see on the camera would be:

1. A shutter lag time equal to the 1 series cameras.. or even the 7D2.. I'd be happier if it was at least as fast at the 7D2.. but very happy if it was as fast as the 1Dx3
2. Large Area AF Point Coverage.. I like the wide and tall area of the 7D2.. why did Canon barely expand this on the 5D4 over the 5D3..? The change is pretty much indistinguishable.. The Sony products have a coverage of AF far outside the middle ones, for more creative, isolated photographs. I don't plan to shoot loosely, and then crop it down to size to make it look more interesting.. I hate that... and my eyes aren't as good at manual focus as they used to be, and even if they were, it would be nice to have some sort of focus aid, to see if those things are sharp, or not, outside the center-zone.. I can understand the absolute NEED for center zone AF for things like birds in flight, airshows, football.. etc.. but.. for event photography.. I need to work outside the center box.

3. 8K....... good Lord..! I have seen a back-lash against 4K.. and people resuming 1080..! Heck... I just want 120fps for 1080... That would make me happy...

4. Bright Red AF points to identify the location of the AF point used, like the 5D2 had.. After a few months of using my 5D3 bodies, which didn't have the same distinct brightness of the RED AF point, nearly as visible as the 5D2 had, I had my 5D2 bodies rebuilt by CPS for 800.00 each.....and used them for the next 4 years.. I use them as backups now to the 5D3 bodies that I used to use only for video, until the studios wanted all files, not renamed...and the 5D2 bodies, all their images start with IMG_, not a code number... so I am forced to use the 5D3 bodies.. I never upgraded to the 5D4 bodies.. I didn't like the small incremental update Canon made... but the R5 looks very interesting to me.. I wouldn't mind having 20fps.. or 12... or what ever bell or whistle it has... as long as they get right the things that I would really want from a camera that can detach from the vertical grip, have a PC socket, and still deliver a great image.

5. Honestly, a top sync speed of 1/250ths.... but.... I know...... I know already....l Canon will never, ever do it for a 5-series body.. They gave it to the 20D, 30D, 40D, 50D, 7D, 7D2... costing 1/2 as much... but nope... they just have to keep us FF shooters annoyed, so they don't compete with their 1-series flag ship... grrr..!

How about Canon coming back with a 3-series for a 2nd tier camera model.. The gap between 1 and 5 is huge.. Nikon has a better system IMO in this regard... I can't switch now... too many L lenses......and I'm too old to switch now... 

I hope they get it right, for me.. 

Cheers!

JP


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 13, 2020)

Regarding 2., you do realize that crop can have greater AF spread and that FF will always be restricted to the central region. I agree that is one limitation that I don't like either but that's only regarding close shots where an eye can't be accommodated and recompose is impractical. Mirrorless has this as a big advantage. I don't do weddings ever.

And I also agree about the illuminated AF points that are so nice to view on the 1DX2 after having had them on the 1D4 and gotten spoiled.

I know any camera below one level is going to disappoint me on a few pet features. One level disappoints me on a few too, like no long exposure built in to my 1DX2.

Jack


----------



## deleteme (Feb 14, 2020)

Regarding number 2, The R series has a huge AF area and the R5 will match it and probably be markedly better in tracking.
I absolutely agree on the 1/250 sync as 1/200 actually is sketchy with some radio triggers. 
Who knows? Maybe Canon will surprise us with a sync speed of 1/320 with the 1D series going to 1/400.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 14, 2020)

JP said:


> Wow... do I need 40mp for my wedding studio clients..? Nope.. They don't want anything submitted larger than 12! I usually give them reduced file sizes that are about 10MP (they are happy if I submitted 8mp!) Do I need 12 or 20 fps..?? Not really... I'm not shooting who knows what is needed for 20fps... I usually have my 7DMk2 set to 4fps, because of the flash recycle time.. and shooting bursts faster than that, leads to black or darker frames.. When I shot for the newspaper, I used EOS 1n bodies.. and shot usually 1 shot at a time... and rarely needed my 6fps top speed.. I didn't miss much action, because I also had a camera with a very responsive shutter release.. For some reason, Canon has always made the shutter lag time Looooooong on the 5 series bodies.. making them pretty much useless for basketball, baseball.. volleyball... or some reaction / jube shots from spectators or the athletes.. It doesn't really matter all that much.. a MS of a loss in time capturing a moment, can be the difference between a good shot and a useless shot.. and the things that I would really like to see on the camera would be:
> 
> 1. A shutter lag time equal to the 1 series cameras.. or even the 7D2.. I'd be happier if it was at least as fast at the 7D2.. but very happy if it was as fast as the 1Dx3
> 2. Large Area AF Point Coverage.. I like the wide and tall area of the 7D2.. why did Canon barely expand this on the 5D4 over the 5D3..? The change is pretty much indistinguishable.. The Sony products have a coverage of AF far outside the middle ones, for more creative, isolated photographs. I don't plan to shoot loosely, and then crop it down to size to make it look more interesting.. I hate that... and my eyes aren't as good at manual focus as they used to be, and even if they were, it would be nice to have some sort of focus aid, to see if those things are sharp, or not, outside the center-zone.. I can understand the absolute NEED for center zone AF for things like birds in flight, airshows, football.. etc.. but.. for event photography.. I need to work outside the center box.



If you have an AF sensor that is the same size, it will take up much more of a smaller crop frame that of a larger full frame.

A FF sensor is 36mm wide. A Canon APS-C sensor is about 22.5mm wide. If the AF sensor covers 16mm, that's less than half the width of a FF sensor and two-thirds the width of an APS-C sensor.




JP said:


> 3. 8K....... good Lord..! I have seen a back-lash against 4K.. and people resuming 1080..! Heck... I just want 120fps for 1080... That would make me happy...
> 
> 4. Bright Red AF points to identify the location of the AF point used, like the 5D2 had.. After a few months of using my 5D3 bodies, which didn't have the same distinct brightness of the RED AF point, nearly as visible as the 5D2 had, I had my 5D2 bodies rebuilt by CPS for 800.00 each.....and used them for the next 4 years.. I use them as backups now to the 5D3 bodies that I used to use only for video, until the studios wanted all files, not renamed...and the 5D2 bodies, all their images start with IMG_, not a code number... so I am forced to use the 5D3 bodies.. I never upgraded to the 5D4 bodies.. I didn't like the small incremental update Canon made... but the R5 looks very interesting to me.. I wouldn't mind having 20fps.. or 12... or what ever bell or whistle it has... as long as they get right the things that I would really want from a camera that can detach from the vertical grip, have a PC socket, and still deliver a great image.
> 
> ...



Flash sync is limited by the transit time of the shutter curtains. A shutter mechanism that can tolerate the same g-forces will always be able to transit a 15mm tall sensor faster than it will be able to transit a 24mm tall sensor.

In addition to the transit times of the first and second shutter curtains, the shutter must be held fully open long enough to trigger the flash and for the flash to fully discharge. Let's assume the shutter must stay open for at least 2 milliseconds for the flash to be fired and dissipate its energy. (That's actually a bit optimistic, as many studio monolites have a T.1 time of longer than 1/500 second.) 

1/250 = 4 milliseconds. That leaves 1 millisecond each for the two curtains to transit the APS-C sensor. 1 + 2 + 1 = 4

Travelling at the same speed, if it takes 1 millisecond to cross a 15mm distance it then takes 1.5 milliseconds to cross a 24mm distance.
So now it takes 5 milliseconds instead of four, which gives us a sync speed of 1/200 = 5 milliseconds. 1.5 + 2 + 1.5 = 5


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 17, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Flash sync is limited by the transit time of the shutter curtains. A shutter mechanism that can tolerate the same g-forces will always be able to transit a 15mm tall sensor faster than it will be able to transit a 24mm tall sensor.



Very helpful. We might also consider that the mass of the moving shutter elements is proportionate to the area. So the moving elements might be double the mass, requiring even more robust actuation elements (or attachment points for whatever transmits force to the moving elements) even after accounting for this. And moreso but to a lesser degree, just as a playing car seems stiff, the same card stock at large scale will be floppy, the elements might need to be still more robust. 

Engineers learn fast in many applications that "scale is a b****". In the telescope world, I learned this from the excellent book "The Perfect Machine" about designing and building the 200" Palomar telescope at a time when 100" was the biggest. Personally, I learned this restoring a 7" Questar telescope in the context of experience only with their 3.5" telescopes. "Just scale it up" becomes the type of absurdity we hear from Dilbert's pointy-haired boss.


----------



## Viggo (Feb 17, 2020)

Haven’t read everything, but is there a chance the new battery can be used in older cameras and have better capacity ?


----------



## Phil Indeblanc (Feb 17, 2020)

I totally agree with the 5Dm2 focus indicator red lights, those were SUPER helpful. And with the 5Dm3, while its a superior camera, BOY do I miss that feature, and it really adds some guess work. Why in the world did they do that? I forget if they fixed that back in the 5Dm4? That was annoying. But with eye detect and dual pixel, I think that will be much clearer than 5Dm3.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 18, 2020)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I totally agree with the 5Dm2 focus indicator red lights, those were SUPER helpful. And with the 5Dm3, while its a superior camera, BOY do I miss that feature, and it really adds some guess work. Why in the world did they do that? I forget if they fixed that back in the 5Dm4? That was annoying. But with eye detect and dual pixel, I think that will be much clearer than 5Dm3.



They gave the option to have the information displayed in the VF illuminated with a blinking red light, but it's not by default. Two separate menu items must be changed for it to happen all of the time.


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## Deleted member 68328 (Feb 18, 2020)

I really hope Canon is going to bring an equivalent of the EG-E1 Extension Grip to the R5. There are still many people like me out there who prefer bigger form factor and/or have large hands. Or just bring a 5D Mark V and that's it


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## Sharlin (Feb 18, 2020)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I totally agree with the 5Dm2 focus indicator red lights, those were SUPER helpful. And with the 5Dm3, while its a superior camera, BOY do I miss that feature, and it really adds some guess work. Why in the world did they do that? I forget if they fixed that back in the 5Dm4? That was annoying. But with eye detect and dual pixel, I think that will be much clearer than 5Dm3.



Canon changed fundamentally how the viewfinder info display works. The AF points and spot metering circle used to be physically etched onto glass, and each point individually lit by a small red led. The 5D3 and most Canon DSLRs since then instead have a transflective LCD screen, so-called "Intelligent Viewfinder", which is more flexible and configurable but makes it difficult to illuminate AF points individually. The 1DX2 does actually have individually lit AF points, but that requires some fancy extra optics in the viewfinder, next to the metering sensor, that project the indicator lights into the user's eye.


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## Michael Clark (Feb 20, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Canon changed fundamentally how the viewfinder info display works. The AF points and spot metering circle used to be physically etched onto glass, and each point individually lit by a small red led. The 5D3 and most Canon DSLRs since then instead have a transflective LCD screen, so-called "Intelligent Viewfinder", which is more flexible and configurable but makes it difficult to illuminate AF points individually. The 1DX2 does actually have individually lit AF points, but that requires some fancy extra optics in the viewfinder, next to the metering sensor, that project the indicator lights into the user's eye.



With the 5D Mark IV, if one has only the selected AF points to display in the VF (black rectangles), then only the selected AF point(s) light up when the red light comes on to light up all of the other VF info (most of which can be enabled or disabled to show up in the VF).


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## Del Paso (Feb 22, 2020)

I hope that someday, we'll get infos about the viewfinder's definition.
For me , this matters much much more than fps, video, or even a dual card slot.
If only Canon gave us an EVF like Leica or Panasonic (SL 2 & SR 1).
I'm not into sports , but landscapes and macro, so I have my specific needs.
But I'm quite confident the R 5's EVF won't disappoint me....


----------



## Richard Anthony (Feb 26, 2020)

I am really curious , if this is the specs of the R5 an alleged equivalent for the 5D , what is the the alleged R1 specs going to be in the next couple of years , or is this camera an equivalent to the 1DX Mark III now ?


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 26, 2020)

Richard Anthony said:


> I am really curious , if this is the specs of the R5 an alleged equivalent for the 5D , what is the the alleged R1 specs going to be in the next couple of years , or is this camera an equivalent to the 1DX Mark III now ?



The R5 does not appear to have _most_ of the things that make the 1DX3 a "1" line body, such as:

Large body with built-in vertical grip and controls and a large battery
Ultra-fast mechanical shutter (20 fps vs 12 fps)
Ridiculous buffer
Absolute reliability and durability (500,000 actuation shutter rating etc)
Absolute top-of-the-line AF system (unlikely that the R5 AF is going to equal 1DX3 AF)
Builtin Ethernet connectivity, (S)FTP etc


----------



## SecureGSM (Feb 27, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> The R5 does not appear to have _most_ of the things that make the 1DX3 a "1" line body, such as:
> 
> Large body with built-in vertical grip and controls and a large battery
> Ultra-fast mechanical shutter (20 fps vs 12 fps)
> ...



Plus a lag / latency free viewfinder to boot? What you see is what you shoot )


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 27, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Plus a lag / latency free viewfinder to boot? What you see is what you shoot )



Well, sure, but this was more about what will/would also distinguish a future R1 from the R5.


----------



## tonidavid5 (Feb 27, 2020)

Keith Cooper from Northlight just posted the specs of the a new LP-E6NH battery registered for a Canon camera. The promised new R5 battery with retrocompatibility with the 5D's ones?

"_New Canon camera registered, uses LP-E6NH battery. Model DS126832 (7.2V 2130mAh)_".

This is roughly 15% more juice than the previous LP-E6N.


----------



## Richard Anthony (Feb 27, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> The R5 does not appear to have _most_ of the things that make the 1DX3 a "1" line body, such as:
> 
> Large body with built-in vertical grip and controls and a large battery
> Ultra-fast mechanical shutter (20 fps vs 12 fps)
> ...


We don't know what it is going to have yet , Canon are saying it's going to be a pro camera .


----------



## Sharlin (Feb 27, 2020)

Richard Anthony said:


> We don't know what it is going to have yet , Canon are saying it's going to be a pro camera .



It's going to be a pro camera the same way that the 5D4 is a pro camera. We're _absolutely_ sure that the R5 is not going to have most of the things in my list (because we've seen the body!!), and it's very likely that it's not going to have any of those. AF is probably the biggest question mark. I predict it's going to be very good but not 1DX3 level good.


----------



## Mr D (Feb 29, 2020)

Will EF lenses also work on this new R5 as well ? and will there be a quality difference with RF lenses ?!


----------



## Jack Douglas (Feb 29, 2020)

Mr D said:


> Will EF lenses also work on this new R5 as well ? and will there be a quality difference with RF lenses ?!


Yes and not much difference but more specialty lenses will be coming. Adding an adapter is a small disadvantage for the EF lenses although the 11-24 now has a filter option that is great.

Jack


----------



## deleteme (Mar 3, 2020)

If we are getting IBIS does this mean we get a high res pixel shift mode like everyone else?


----------



## Lenscracker (Mar 3, 2020)

Why can't we get more R5 fat to chew on? What's the point of keeping the recipe secret at this point in time? There must be a lot of ingredients that will not change in the next few months.


----------



## mpmark (Mar 6, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Since the photos have been published you can BOLD the "no touch bar" and "scroll wheel added" rumors as being fact. Also canon confirmed Duel card slots so that can be bolded as well.


----------



## koenkooi (Mar 7, 2020)

mpmark said:


> [..]Also canon confirmed Duel card slots so that can be bolded as well.


So the slots will fight each other?


----------



## Lenscracker (Mar 7, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> So the slots will fight each other?


Dueling card slots. An excellent concept.


----------



## Dockland (Mar 10, 2020)

So.. I assume it's about the right time to sell my trusty 5D mk IV now


----------



## Jack Douglas (Mar 10, 2020)

Dockland said:


> So.. I assume it's about the right time to sell my trusty 5D mk IV now


Boy, that's not that easy to answer!

Jack


----------



## Jack Douglas (Mar 11, 2020)

This seems to be something new??






Canon EOS R5 to Have Pixel-Shift High Resolution Mode « NEW CAMERA


According to the latest rumors surfaced over the web working prototypes of the Canon EOS R5 camera do have Pixel-Shift High Resolution Mode of 150MP [Approx]. But, keep in mind the Pixel-Shift High Resolution Mode is now limited to beta firmware and no one knows it will be available on final...




thenewcamera.com





Jack


----------



## AlP (Mar 11, 2020)

Looks like there will be two cameras with the new LP-E6NH battery: DS126832 and DS126838 (

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237653880621518848)
The latter is compatible with the TC-80N3 remote, so it could be the R5 while DS126832 could be the R6 (and not the R5 as initially assumed) and will use the RS-60E3 remote. That would match the pictures of the R5 which show a port cover similar to that of the 5D4 which uses the TC-80N3 remote.


----------



## SecureGSM (Mar 11, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> This seems to be something new??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This seems to linked back CR as a source. So...solid as houses. 
However, thinking of 150mp in pixel shift mode. That points to around 38Mpixel sensor in R5. 150/4=xx. I would be happy with that. However highly unlikely at this stage.


----------



## apphoto (Mar 13, 2020)

Not sure if this has been mentioned but Canon Australia just confirmed the below specs for the R5 on their Facebook...

8K video: 30fps, no crop, internal recording and dual pixel AF available in ALL 8K modes.
Auto Focus: body, face and eye animal detect so you can steadily track your subject. 





__ https://www.facebook.com/CanonAustralia/posts/10157941378159763


----------



## Jack Douglas (Mar 13, 2020)

apphoto said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned but Canon Australia just confirmed the below specs for the R5 on their Facebook...
> 
> 8K video: 30fps, no crop, internal recording and dual pixel AF available in ALL 8K modes.
> Auto Focus: body, face and eye animal detect so you can steadily track your subject.
> ...











Canon reveals further EOS R5 details – shutting down speculation that some specs are ‘a fantasy’.


Canon INC has today released further development specifications for its recently announced Canon EOS R5, the next-generation full-frame interchangeable lens camera in the company’s EOS R System.




www.canon.com.au


----------



## Shaisgs (Mar 13, 2020)

And a FB post from Canon Asia 
Animal Eye AF including birds



https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2937742469609153&id=436747099708715


----------



## Rule556 (Mar 13, 2020)

apphoto said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned but Canon Australia just confirmed the below specs for the R5 on their Facebook...
> 
> 8K video: 30fps, no crop, internal recording and dual pixel AF available in ALL 8K modes.
> Auto Focus: body, face and eye animal detect so you can steadily track your subject.
> ...



Well, that ought to spin people up.


----------



## Michael Clark (Mar 13, 2020)

Dockland said:


> So.. I assume it's about the right time to sell my trusty 5D mk IV now



Only if you don't need to take any photos until some time late this year...


----------



## vjlex (Mar 13, 2020)

Oh man, getting the feeling I won't be able to afford this camera for a while after all.  Loving the specs, fearing the price. If they consider it a next generation of the 5-series, then they may put a next generation price tag on it.


----------



## tpatana (Mar 13, 2020)

shunsai said:


> Oh man, getting the feeling I won't be able to afford this camera for a while after all.  Loving the specs, fearing the price. If they consider it a next generation of the 5-series, then they may put a next generation price tag on it.



Yea I'm starting to wonder about the price too...


----------



## Jack Douglas (Mar 13, 2020)

Doesn't matter what the price is, if it's checking the boxes like it appears to be, I'll swing it somehow. Trouble is, would I find myself carrying the 1DX2 along for the ride. I somehow doubt it.

Jack


----------



## MVPhoto (Mar 13, 2020)

I'm dying to know what format it's going to record in! 10-bit, 4:2:2, H.265 with C-Log I hope!


----------



## koenkooi (Mar 13, 2020)

MVPhoto said:


> I'm dying to know what format it's going to record in! 10-bit, 4:2:2, H.265 with C-Log I hope!



Likely the same formats as the 1DX3, 12-bit RAW for 8k, a choice of compressed modes for 4k and HD.


----------



## MVPhoto (Mar 13, 2020)

For those worried about pricing, *Jason McLean, Director – Consumer Imaging & Services, Canon Australia, said*: “Our EOS 5-Series was developed fifteen years ago to make full-frame cameras accessible to consumers, not just professional shooters. Today, that purpose remains steadfast as we continue achieving the ‘impossible’ to deliver the hybrid needs of content creators who are demanding uncompromised performance to generate more still and motion visual content than ever before.”

canon.com.au


----------



## Viggo (Mar 13, 2020)

People knocked Canon down so they came back running... Jesus Christ these specs are bonkers! I’m getting it now, this will be a fun tool to use


----------



## EduPortas (Mar 13, 2020)

Can you imagine the jello-effect in 8K?


----------



## mpmark (Mar 13, 2020)

Lee Jay said:


> The pixel density is too low to replace a 7D Mark II for long-reach applications (17MP in APS-c mode) and no information about the usability of the viewfinder (I find all Sony's and both Canon's to be unusable, so whether or not I ever switch away from SLRs depends heavily on this point).



I thought like you and have since switched from my 5Div to EOS R, the tracking, eye af and accuracy of the focus alone is why I switched. The AF system is night and day, and this is just the EOS R.
I'm finally using my fast lenses again at F/1.4 as it always hits focus every time, that for me is enough reason to switch. I became tire of owning a 3k fast prime that I couldn't be confident to use under F/2.8.
Yes bird tracking is may a bit difficult but you adapt, for me the other benefits now far outweigh using a OVF


----------



## Jack Douglas (Mar 13, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Same here. Everyone I've heard from who owns and regularly uses a DX2 does NOT want a smaller/thinner/more compact body. Weight balancing against larger glass is one of the DX lines BEST features. If/When the 1DX line goes MILC, then I'm betting Canon is going to keep the body almost exactly like it is and just (more or less) remove the mirror, pentaprism, and push the sensor forward in the body towards the flange to get the proper RF distance. Or (the CRAZY-TOWN version) puts a sensor on a rail that can slide it back and forth into position for both EF and RF glass and have interchangeable mounts. Bat-Poop crazy but hey, that is the sort of cool stuff Canon would come up with.


I shot 6D with 300 2.8 II for about 6 years before 1DX2 with 300 and now 400 DO II and I can tell you that you are somewhat correct but not nearly as strongly as implied. The brick is simply too heavy! A 1D4 was almost ideal but still a little too heavy for my liking. Yes I like to wrap my hand around the 1DX2 but I never had issues with the 6D.


----------



## kalahari00 (Mar 15, 2020)

I suspect both rumors on pixel count are true. The sensor on the EOS R5 will be larger than full frame size at 45MP. Only 39MP full frame size output will be available. Remaining size will be used to create the digital stabilization (Canon IBIS). This method is already available on EOS R and RP, but results in reduction from full frame size. Use of larger sensor will add 2 stops of stabilization without losing full frame. This will allow 8k 30fps full width output without intensive processing with stabilization. At 4k this will allow 4 pixels to be combined making the luminance and color noise very low. This will make this camera the leader in low light performance at 4k resolution. This will allow canon to offer IBIS without installing physical stabilization cost. The camera will be cheaper than anticipated by most and sell like crazy. I am anticipating a price of $2.7k. This will also allow very low heat generation in 8k, allowing very long battery life. The super low light mode in 1080p will combine even more pixels to create large virtual pixels.


----------



## Joules (Mar 15, 2020)

kalahari00 said:


> This will allow canon to offer IBIS without installing physical stabilization cost.


Digital stabilization that is applied to video is not very helpful for stills.

When Canon says this will be their first IBIS body, they mean the physical hardware to move the sensor inside the camera.

We've seen them pour years and years of patent work into this. It had to result in a product eventually.


----------



## canonnews (Mar 15, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> This seems to be something new??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That site throws crap to the wall to see what sticks.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Mar 15, 2020)

canonnews said:


> That site throws crap to the wall to see what sticks.


I predict that CR readership will increase due to ... guess. Now, that being said, I sure hope we get more rumours that stick or don't stick or some of the discussions will become pretty stale! 

Jack


----------



## Danpbphoto (Mar 15, 2020)

Well despite all the 50, 60, 100+ MP hype..looks like I will be going to Sony for High mp.


----------



## Viggo (Mar 15, 2020)

Danpbphoto said:


> Well despite all the 50, 60, 100+ MP hype..looks like I will be going to Sony for High mp.


Well, you had a good... uhm, 14 days...


----------



## SteveC (Mar 15, 2020)

kalahari00 said:


> I am anticipating a price of $2.7k.



That'd be an instant purchase on my part. But, I don't expect it. I am with the large numbers of people who are in the 3,300-3,900 range, and at those levels I will wait a while.


----------



## SteveC (Mar 15, 2020)

Danpbphoto said:


> Well despite all the 50, 60, 100+ MP hype..looks like I will be going to Sony for High mp.



Or, optionally you could wait for the R5s/R3 and get a real camera.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 16, 2020)

SteveC said:


> That'd be an instant purchase on my part. But, I don't expect it. I am with the large numbers of people who are in the 3,300-3,900 range, and at those levels I will wait a while.



Looking at the Z7 at $2800 with its IBIS and MP count and all that jazz. I could see the R5 being in $3000 to $3500. Just to be inline with competitors. I do not see it in the same price bracket as the pro sports bodies, it is not a pro sports body. The 5D mark II didn't suddenly come out at 1D prices just because it had video and 1Ds megapixels and this is consistent with the 5 series.


----------



## Michael Clark (Mar 16, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> This seems to linked back CR as a source. So...solid as houses.
> However, thinking of 150mp in pixel shift mode. That points to around 38Mpixel sensor in R5. 150/4=xx. I would be happy with that. However highly unlikely at this stage.



The sensor would need to be a little more than one-quarter the final resolution to allow for the "overhang" between the farthest movement of the sensor in each direction. Just for simplicity's sake, let's say you have 5x4 inch sensor. Let's say it's maximum shift is one-half inch in each direction (left, right, up, down). There would only be a 4x3 rectangle in the center that is always within one edge of the sensor.


----------



## Viggo (Mar 16, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> Looking at the Z7 at $2800 with its IBIS and MP count and all that jazz. I could see the R5 being in $3000 to $3500. Just to be inline with competitors. I do not see it in the same price bracket as the pro sports bodies, it is not a pro sports body. The 5D mark II didn't suddenly come out at 1D prices just because it had video and 1Ds megapixels and this is consistent with the 5 series.



the 5dmkiv launched at $3499, the 1dx2 at 6499 which is the same as the 1dx3 is released at. Why should suddenly the R5 jump waaay up or be cheaper than the 5d4? Makes no sense, the R5 will be between 3500-3800.


----------



## Michael Clark (Mar 16, 2020)

Viggo said:


> the 5dmkiv launched at $3499, the 1dx2 at 6499 which is the same as the 1dx3 is released at. Why should suddenly the R5 jump waaay up or be cheaper than the 5d4? Makes no sense, the R5 will be between 3500-3800.



The EOS 1D X Mark III released at $6,499 in the U.S.

The EOS 1D X Mark II debuted in the U.S. at$5,999.

The EOS 1D X was introduced at $6,799.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 16, 2020)

Viggo said:


> the 5dmkiv launched at $3499, the 1dx2 at 6499 which is the same as the 1dx3 is released at. Why should suddenly the R5 jump waaay up or be cheaper than the 5d4? Makes no sense, the R5 will be between 3500-3800.



Why would it jump way up or suddenly be way cheaper?


----------



## BillB (Mar 16, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> Looking at the Z7 at $2800 with its IBIS and MP count and all that jazz. I could see the R5 being in $3000 to $3500. Just to be inline with competitors. I do not see it in the same price bracket as the pro sports bodies, it is not a pro sports body. The 5D mark II didn't suddenly come out at 1D prices just because it had video and 1Ds megapixels and this is consistent with the 5 series.


You may be right, but I don't think the price of the camera will be a that big a factor in people choosing among the R5, the Z7, and sticking with what they have. Quite a few R5 buyers will already have 5d3's or 5DIV's. And then the growing number of RF lenses will be a factor as well.


----------



## Viggo (Mar 16, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> Why would it jump way up or suddenly be way cheaper?


Isn’t that exactly what I said?


----------



## Viggo (Mar 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The EOS 1D X Mark III released at $6,499 in the U.S.
> 
> The EOS 1D X Mark II debuted in the U.S. at$5,999.
> 
> The EOS 1D X was introduced at $6,799.


Yes, you’re right. I remember now, it’s insane here because the 1dx2 cost 63.000 Norwegian kroner and the 1dx was 55.000, now the 1dx3 is 83.000! And 20.000 NOK is nearly $2000.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Mar 16, 2020)

BillB said:


> You may be right, but I don't think the price of the camera will be a that big a factor in people choosing among the R5, the Z7, and sticking with what they have. Quite a few R5 buyers will already have 5d3's or 5DIV's. And then the growing number of RF lenses will be a factor as well.



I very much agree. Personally I will go all in on “a” system and R and RF is certainly ahead. But that Nikon Z 200-600 might me amazing. In the same turn the Canon 100-500 will be weather sealed and well built and on a body i know which buttons to press.


----------



## tpatana (Mar 16, 2020)

I'm curious about R5 although I want 1DX3. But makes me think...

Is there any indication about indoor low light sport AF? Can R5 compete against 1DX3 on AF tracking accuracy?


----------



## Jack Douglas (Mar 17, 2020)

tpatana said:


> I'm curious about R5 although I want 1DX3. But makes me think...
> 
> Is there any indication about indoor low light sport AF? Can R5 compete against 1DX3 on AF tracking accuracy?


From all my fussing and fuming when I chose the 1DX2 over the 5D4, all I can say is the 1DX has features that are very appealing but it doesn't have the MPs some of us want. That alone is steering me clear of the 1DX3 and hoping the R5 has some of those features (of course not all). I like the idea of a flip out screen etc. so as usual it's compromise, compromise, with no "flagship" having everything. Not to mention if you really want full viewfinder coverage of AF etc. The compromises drive me crazy. 

BTW, although I'm happy with the 1DX2, I've never felt that the speed of AF acquisition was as fantastic as it might be.

Jack


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## derpderp (Mar 18, 2020)

Just put up my entire Sony kit for sale. Will be picking up the R5 as soon as it is released


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## Jack Douglas (Mar 18, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Just put up my entire Sony kit for sale. Will be picking up the R5 as soon as it is released


Clearly a person of "faith"!   Not that I think you can go very far wrong.

Jack


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## SteveC (Mar 18, 2020)

We're starting to see the reverse of all the people who used to sign up then make a few posts, ending with one that was a screed ending with them saying "I'm going to go buy a Sony."  I'm pretty sure THOSE posts were Sony-sponsored astroturf; as for the people coming in to announce they're moving away from Sony, Welcome!!!


----------



## AlanF (Mar 18, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Just put up my entire Sony kit for sale. Will be picking up the R5 as soon as it is released


What are you going to do in between?


----------



## Michael Clark (Mar 18, 2020)

AlanF said:


> What are you going to do in between?



There's a difference between photographers and camera traders/collectors.


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## Viggo (Mar 19, 2020)

There will be no R5 for me, the Norwegian krone has collapsed and the 1dx3 has now tipped over $8000


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## derpderp (Mar 23, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> There's a difference between photographers and camera traders/collectors.



Curious that you would say that. Who would actually buy cameras just to collect them?


----------



## derpderp (Mar 23, 2020)

AlanF said:


> What are you going to do in between?



I still have my EOS RP and the 3 RF lenses  However, seeing that I mostly focus on travel photography and due to the worldwide travel bans, I doubt i'd be creating much content in the near future.


----------



## AlanF (Mar 23, 2020)

derpderp said:


> I still have my EOS RP and the 3 RF lenses  However, seeing that I mostly focus on travel photography and due to the worldwide travel bans, I doubt i'd be creating much content in the near future.


Commiserations. Lots of people have sudden dire problems from health to financial so if all I miss is a year's travel, I think myself lucky.


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## Del Paso (Mar 29, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Commiserations. Lots of people have sudden dire problems from health to financial so if all I miss is a year's travel, I think myself lucky.


I'll also miss my trip to northern Italy this spring.
But, compared to the Italians' sufferings, I'm just "suffering" peanuts...and taking pictures of lovely little flowers in my garden.
And keep hoping that my Italian friends are safe and healthy!


----------



## AlanF (Mar 29, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> I'll also miss my trip to northern Italy this spring.
> But, compared to the Italians' sufferings, I'm just "suffering" peanuts...and taking pictures of lovely little flowers in my garden.
> And keep hoping that my Italian friends are safe and healthy!


Italy is one of my favourite countries and the Italians are among the most hospitable people.


----------



## derpderp (Mar 30, 2020)

Received an offer email from Canon a few days ago promoting their holy trinity RF lenses and offering a discount of around USD$200. Said to be an offer "in preparation for the imminent release of the Canon EOS R5". Offer only valid till 31 March. Could that be an indication that the R5 will be released in April?


----------



## SecureGSM (Mar 30, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Received an offer email from Canon a few days ago promoting their holy trinity RF lenses and offering a discount of around USD$200. Said to be an offer "in preparation for the imminent release of the Canon EOS R5". Offer only valid till 31 March. Could that be an indication that the R5 will be released in April?


It is in preparation of the imminent end of Q1 2020. Not a Canon insider but luxury and leisure goods are taking some serious beating.
That said, $200 discount on what $7,500 package across a set of three lenses? That’s 2.8%


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## derpderp (Mar 30, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> It is in preparation of the imminent end of Q1 2020. Not a Canon insider but luxury and leisure goods are taking some serious beating.
> That said, $200 discount on what $7,500 package across a set of three lenses? That’s 2.8%



Need to clarify, its actually ~$200 discount for EACH lens.


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## SecureGSM (Mar 30, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Need to clarify, its actually ~$200 discount for EACH lens.


Ok that’s certainly a better deal at around 8% of discounting. At 20% Canon may start getting some traction with the current market.
some Australian numbers to consider:

Current unemployment rate: 5.1% - 700,000 out of jobs

Official near term unemployment projection:1,700,000 people out of jobs

that’s over 12% unemployment rate. Last time it was at that level in Australia back in around 1991-1992.


----------



## derpderp (Mar 30, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Ok that’s certainly a better deal at around 8% of discounting. At 20% Canon may start getting some traction with the current market.
> some Australian numbers to consider:
> 
> Current unemployment rate: 5.1% - 700,000 out of jobs
> ...



Makes me wonder if, in consideration of the current crisis, Canon will push back the release of the EOS R5. I hope they'll stick to the schedule.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Mar 30, 2020)

I also saw a reference from the Australia site that indicated the R5 is imminent. I'd prefer not to be an early adopter but was planning a trip for the fall to bear country in BC, Canada and l and was hoping for the camera for that. However, the virus has us wondering if we'll even be alive let alone travelling. Like they say, the world will never be the same after this.

Jack


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## SaP34US (Mar 30, 2020)

The R5 might be announced next month to be released in July possibly in limited and the R6 hopefully will be announced in late April/May to be released in June.


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## derpderp (Mar 31, 2020)

SaP34US said:


> The R5 might be announced next month to be released in July possibly in limited and the R6 hopefully will be announced in late April/May to be released in June.



Frankly no idea why they would announce something only to release it 3 months later. I think they'll announce in April and release in May.


----------



## TwinExotica (Mar 31, 2020)

I don't understand, who would need 8k, almost 99.9% of peoples PC's won't even handle 8k so what's the reason, it just makes the price higher?!


----------



## Jack Douglas (Mar 31, 2020)

TwinExotica said:


> I don't understand, who would need 8k, almost 99.9% of peoples PC's won't even handle 8k so what's the reason, it just makes the price higher?!


If you Google on the subject you'll understand what it gives that isn't just 8K oriented. For example you can after the fact zoom and pan while still outputting in 4K. Exactly what's being said about 8K was said about 4K and probably about HD. Imagine if Canon didn't push forward - they'd be *******! 

Jack


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## brad-man (Mar 31, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> I also saw a reference from the Australia site that indicated the R5 is imminent. I'd prefer not to be an early adopter but was planning a trip for the fall to bear country in BC, Canada and l and was hoping for the camera for that. However, the virus has us wondering if we'll even be alive let alone travelling. Like they say, the world will never be the same after this.
> 
> Jack


So I guess you are going to bring a trusty old EF lens to go with that R5, since there aren't any RF lenses suitable for bear country.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Mar 31, 2020)

brad-man said:


> So I guess you are going to bring a trusty old EF lens to go with that R5, since there aren't any RF lenses suitable for bear country.



Of course. I bought the R and turned it over to my daughter. Although it was rather short she shot with the R and my 70-200 X1.4 in Costa Rica and had great results when not FLL. I'm not the least bit worried that the 400 DO II with X1.4 won't be just fine with the adapter and if I then have 45 MPs I think that'll be quite acceptable. There is a good chance that with the bare 400 I will have decent reach, especially for bears.

As far as balance goes, I shot for years with the 300 2.8 II with X2 on the 6D and that wasn't all that bad, not ideal. I'm not thrilled about the weight of the 1DX2 but like the size - always trade-offs.

However, I doubt the world will be very well by this fall, somehow. 

Jack


----------



## TwinExotica (Apr 1, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> If you Google on the subject you'll understand what it gives that isn't just 8K oriented. For example you can after the fact zoom and pan while still outputting in 4K. Exactly what's being said about 8K was said about 4K and probably about HD. Imagine if Canon didn't push forward - they'd be *******!
> 
> Jack


But I mean, how are you going to edit 8k footage, it takes a lot of PC power and storage, the best spect MacBook pro 16 won't even handle 8k


----------



## Jack Douglas (Apr 1, 2020)

TwinExotica said:


> But I mean, how are you going to edit 8k footage, it takes a lot of PC power and storage, the best spect MacBook pro 16 won't even handle 8k


Well, it remains to be seen but my recent desktop build exceeds most any laptop but maybe I'll be having second thoughts in due course. I think it's pretty obvious that 8K video will be short and used only when it's going to provide a significant benefit. I'm no expert in this area so others may wish to chime in.

Jack


----------



## navastronia (Apr 3, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Well, it remains to be seen but my recent desktop build exceeds most any laptop but maybe I'll be having second thoughts in due course. I think it's pretty obvious that 8K video will be short and used only when it's going to provide a significant benefit. I'm no expert in this area so others may wish to chime in.
> 
> Jack



As others have pointed out in other threads, one can employ offline editing (using a proxy file) and skip working with the actual 8K footage itself while in an NLE (editing program). When finished, one can still publish in 8K. This process lowers the system requirements necessary for editing.


----------



## Sharlin (Apr 4, 2020)

TwinExotica said:


> But I mean, how are you going to edit 8k footage, it takes a lot of PC power and storage, the best spect MacBook pro 16 won't even handle 8k



Laptops, no matter how powerful, aren't made for heavy-duty video editing... There are still use cases that call for a real computer.

Anyway, the R5 will be able to shoot beatiful 4K internally downsampled from 8K. That's likely more than enough for most people for now. But being able to get 8K out of the camera_ now _gives Canon major bragging rights, and besides, the camera will still be useful in three or even five years when 8K workflows will be more commonplace.


----------



## slclick (Apr 4, 2020)

I think timelines are now the number one issue. Most of us here have very good gear, it still works and we can be patient for upgrades. But for those with broken bodies, needing to add a backup or in the midst of changing systems, availability of current models will affect sales of near future, yet ambiguous release date cameras. Plus, the new Canon lineup is hardly a known factor, the R5 has 'some' info out in the wild but everything else is conjecture and rumor.For instance, If I wasn't brand loyal due to glass I might be interested in a Fuji X-T4 instead of a future M body. These are interesting times to say the least and camera gear is truly the least of our concerns at this point.


----------



## koenkooi (Apr 4, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> [..]Anyway, the R5 will be able to shoot beatiful 4K internally downsampled from 8K.[..]



Canon has been very quiet on that front, so I expect 4k to be line/columnskipped, not downsampled.


----------



## Sharlin (Apr 4, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Canon has been very quiet on that front, so I expect 4k to be line/columnskipped, not downsampled.



No, they all but confirmed [trying to find a citation] that 2:1 internally oversampled 4K is one of the killer apps you get with a 8K capable sensor. I don’t think any Canon camera does line skipping in 4K, they’re all either 1:1 cropping or oversampling (the 90D, M6 2 and 1DX 3 being the ones in the latter category as of now).


----------



## Rule556 (Apr 4, 2020)

derpderp said:


> I still have my EOS RP and the 3 RF lenses  However, seeing that I mostly focus on travel photography and due to the worldwide travel bans, I doubt i'd be creating much content in the near future.


I can relate to this. Had trips scheduled for Italy in the fall, and a trip to Santa Barbara this summer. As a hobbyist, I don’t get a lot of travel opportunities so I just play tourist a lot locally. With shelter in place, that’s no longer an option really. The good news is that I’m spending a lot of time learning how to use my new R, so I’ll be more able to take advantage when things turn around. ‍


----------



## Rule556 (Apr 4, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Commiserations. Lots of people have sudden dire problems from health to financial so if all I miss is a year's travel, I think myself lucky.



Absolutely.


----------



## davidespinosa (Apr 4, 2020)

Sorry for the newbie question, but:

Why are people so excited about the R5 (over the R) ?

What are the 1 or 2 big upgrades that make the difference ?

It can't be 20 small upgrades -- people wouldn't get this excited.

Thanks...

EDIT -- summarizing:
* IBIS -- important for people with non-IS lenses
* Dual card slots -- important for pros who absolutely must have backup
* 4K no crop (is this announced ?) -- important for 4K video with wide lenses
* Confidence that Canon is "all in" on mirrorless and is keeping up with Sony and Nikon
-- important because nobody likes to be on the losing team and changing brands is expensive
* 12 fps with AF -- important for sports
* Anything else ?

Post #180 asks the same question -- the answers weren't very clear:
https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...os-r5-specifications.38165/page-9#post-812031


----------



## Jack Douglas (Apr 4, 2020)

davidespinosa said:


> Sorry for the newbie question, but:
> 
> Why are people so excited about the R5 (over the R) ?
> 
> ...


 Bragging rights.

Jack


----------



## Czardoom (Apr 5, 2020)

davidespinosa said:


> Sorry for the newbie question, but:
> 
> Why are people so excited about the R5 (over the R) ?
> 
> ...


It's primarily a gear-head forum. So any tech advances, regardless of whether they make much or any difference in your actual shooting are considered vital. I own an R and have absolutely no interest in the R5. I can pretty much gaurantee you there will be no noticeable improvement in image quality over the R, and since I have no need for IBIS, 2 slots or higher Fps, will be more than content with the R as it takes fantastic pics.


----------



## docsmith (Apr 5, 2020)

davidespinosa said:


> Sorry for the newbie question, but:
> 
> Why are people so excited about the R5 (over the R) ?
> 
> ...


12/20 fps 
Joystick
40-45 MP
CFX card slot
Assumed better weathersealing

then, as you say, IBIS, dual card slots, then the video specs.

after that there is a general hope that canon is “all in” on the R5 and R was a beta camera. So, whatever that means. 

Also, the R5 May out spec Sony and Nikon equivalents. 

But your point is well taken, the R is a capable camera. I own a 5D4. Another very capable camera. I could keep going, but if none of those features are important to you, you won’t be impressed by the R5.

But if you have been wanting one or more of those features, we’ll, it’s ok to be excited.


----------



## slclick (Apr 5, 2020)

davidespinosa said:


> Sorry for the newbie question, but:
> 
> Why are people so excited about the R5 (over the R) ?
> 
> ...


Myself I'm looking for a FF Canon body to replace my 5D3. I am interested in better noise control, especially color noise in low light. I do not mind a large file to work with as a landscape, macro, abstraction and nature shooter I don't take a lot of shots and am methodical with my setup and settings. It's the sensor specs and detail potential that interest me. I know that if this isn't the one, I have the R, 5DsR and 5D4 to take a serious look at with a lot less investment. The reason I didn't bite the bullet on the R is ergonomics, it just didn't do it for me when I borrowed on for an afternoon. . I could adapt if needed, it just takes time, right? But I'm a patient person and can wait for the right body. All in all, I mostly want my IQ, as for the other stuff, whatever. A good fit in my mitts, clean files and I'm a happy man.


----------



## derpderp (Apr 5, 2020)

davidespinosa said:


> Sorry for the newbie question, but:
> 
> Why are people so excited about the R5 (over the R) ?
> 
> ...



I'm excited cause... cause..... it's expensive!!! 

Jokes aside, I like the fact that its specs are significantly better than the R, and comparable (or even better) than top end mirrorless cameras like the Sony A7R4. Which is why i ditched the Sony.


----------



## davidespinosa (Apr 5, 2020)

docsmith said:


> after that there is a general hope that canon is “all in” on the R5 and R was a beta camera. So, whatever that means.


Thanks, I'm getting the picture now !
It really looks like Canon vs Sony.
People naturally want to be on the "winning team", particularly if they own lots of Canon lenses !


----------



## Jack Douglas (Apr 5, 2020)

davidespinosa said:


> Thanks, I'm getting the picture now !
> It really looks like Canon vs Sony.
> People naturally want to be on the "winning team", particularly if they own lots of Canon lenses !



Well it shouldn't be. I would never switch to Sony. I'm interested because of MPs with FPS; more and less than my 1DX2 and hope it has at least some of the 1 level features I love. That's the single burr in my saddle; why Canon refuses to gives us higher MPs in a 1 level camera. I suspect that the R5 will somewhat disappoint in this regard but I'm still interested because of the MP's and the FPS as a combination and the 8K video thrown in. There certainly are some big question marks. As others have said, if this is Canon really trying to ambush Sony and the R5 proves to be that good, well, then I'll be pleasantly surprised. Right now ... there has to be a catch ... or maybe not?? If not, I buy. And I'm not loaded but I'll scrimp somehow.

Jack


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 5, 2020)

TwinExotica said:


> But I mean, how are you going to edit 8k footage, it takes a lot of PC power and storage, the best spect MacBook pro 16 won't even handle 8k



None of the big boys edit video on laptops/notebooks/portables or even off the shelf pedestrian desktops.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 5, 2020)

davidespinosa said:


> Sorry for the newbie question, but:
> 
> Why are people so excited about the R5 (over the R) ?
> 
> ...




You can't really shoot sports/action very well with the R. When refocusing between each frame the max frame rate is only about 3fps! The R5 will improve that to 12 fps! That's faster than the 7D Mark II and as fast as the original 1D X!


----------



## koenkooi (Apr 5, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> No, they all but confirmed [trying to find a citation] that 2:1 internally oversampled 4K is one of the killer apps you get with a 8K capable sensor. I don’t think any Canon camera does line skipping in 4K, they’re all either 1:1 cropping or oversampling (the 90D, M6 2 and 1DX 3 being the ones in the latter category as of now).



I read that bit as "You can get great downsampled 4k in post". I'd love to be wrong though!


----------



## koenkooi (Apr 5, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> No, they all but confirmed [trying to find a citation] that 2:1 internally oversampled 4K is one of the killer apps you get with a 8K capable sensor. I don’t think any Canon camera does line skipping in 4K, they’re all either 1:1 cropping or oversampling (the 90D, M6 2 and 1DX 3 being the ones in the latter category as of now).



I keep reading that the 90D has much better 4k than the M6II, doing the downsampling you mention. The M6II is reported to the skipping and then upsampling the 3.4k footage. 
All I can say is the the 4k footage from my M6II looks better than its 1080p footage. And both suffer from the lack of IS on the EF-M 32mm


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## Michael Clark (Apr 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> Myself I'm looking for a FF Canon body to replace my 5D3. I am interested in better noise control, especially color noise in low light. I do not mind a large file to work with as a landscape, macro, abstraction and nature shooter I don't take a lot of shots and am methodical with my setup and settings. It's the sensor specs and detail potential that interest me. I know that if this isn't the one, I have the R, 5DsR and 5D4 to take a serious look at with a lot less investment. The reason I didn't bite the bullet on the R is ergonomics, it just didn't do it for me when I borrowed on for an afternoon. . I could adapt if needed, it just takes time, right? But I'm a patient person and can wait for the right body. All in all, I mostly want my IQ, as for the other stuff, whatever. A good fit in my mitts, clean files and I'm a happy man.



For your stated purposes, the 5D Mark IV was a significant improvement over the 5D Mark III. You probably should have upgraded in 2016.

Dynamic range: 5D Mark III vs. 5D Mark IV

Read noise: 5D Mark III vs. 5D Mark IV


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## slclick (Apr 6, 2020)

Really Right Stuff just told me they aren't sure they will be making an L PLate for the R5. 

OK, that drink is one part non-committal, one part BS and a jigger of 'Don't hold us to it in case the virus is the apocalypse' .


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## privatebydesign (Apr 7, 2020)

slclick said:


> Really Right Stuff just told me they aren't sure they will be making an L PLate for the R5.
> 
> OK, that drink is one part non-committal, one part BS and a jigger of 'Don't hold us to it in case the virus is the apocalypse' .


I’ve been in touch with them re the 1DX III l-plate, we went backwards and forwards a bit but I hope they take my suggestions on board.


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## djkraq (Apr 9, 2020)

I really hope the R5 has CLog. That would be awesome. I see everything but that in the rumors.


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## vjlex (Apr 10, 2020)

djkraq said:


> I really hope the R5 has CLog. That would be awesome. I see everything but that in the rumors.


If the original R has it, I think it's safe to assume the R5 will have it too. Especially since there is even more emphasis on the R5's video capabilities.


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## deleteme (Apr 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> Really Right Stuff just told me they aren't sure they will be making an L PLate for the R5.
> 
> OK, that drink is one part non-committal, one part BS and a jigger of 'Don't hold us to it in case the virus is the apocalypse' .


I bought the ProMedia Gear plate for my R over the RRS plate which was late to market and lacked the ability to use the screen meaningfully when it finally did show up. The quality is every bit as good as RRS.


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## deleteme (Apr 14, 2020)

Can anyone tell me what the port and button on the front of the body are for?


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## derpderp (Apr 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> *The only other way that works is IF IF IF Canon develops this new R5 body to mimic and feel like the current 5D body.* * In other words, make it artificially larger*.



Lol no, please no. I don't need a brick in my bag. The current R design is the best, whereas the RP feels a bit small (feels great with the optional add-on grip though). 

Regarding the hypothetical 5D5, I don't think that will happen. Ppl will continue to bi*ch and moan about the transition from DSLRs to mirrorless, just as when ppl had to transition from film to digital. Just gotta swallow the pill quickly and get it over with.


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## Jack Douglas (Apr 14, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Lol no, please no. I don't need a brick in my bag. The current R design is the best, whereas the RP feels a bit small (feels great with the optional add-on grip though).
> 
> Regarding the hypothetical 5D5, I don't think that will happen. Ppl will continue to bi*ch and moan about the transition from DSLRs to mirrorless, just as when ppl had to transition from film to digital. Just gotta swallow the pill quickly and get it over with.



Each opinion is worthy but for me I transitioned from the 6D though a 1D2, a 1D4 and finally the 1DX2 and having shot about 50K plus with the 6D I had no issue with its size but at this moment I do see a small benefit to having a somewhat bigger body. 

However I do not appreciate so much weight, and think that the 1D4 was still plenty big. I really liked the feel of the 1D4 and its crop factor even though I only shot about 10k with it. As many have stated, that camera "body" was easy to love.

My hands are small for a man and the 1DX2 is slightly too big for me to feel 100% comfortable walking with it in my right hand with a smaller lens. With my 400 the balance of the 1DX2 is appreciated but it was OK with the 6D (mostly 300 2.8 II X2). Obviously if someone doesn't shoot much with a _large lens_ then it's more likely a smallish body will be preferred. If a person is adding a grip, then I don't see the point of desiring a smaller body, I'd prefer a built in grip.

Regardless, Canon isn't listening to me except perhaps as part of their large sample of those that share my opinion. I'll learn to love the R5, even if it's smaller than I prefer and I doubt that.

Jack


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## PureClassA (Apr 15, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Each opinion is worthy but for me I transitioned from the 6D though a 1D2, a 1D4 and finally the 1DX2 and having shot about 50K plus with the 6D I had no issue with its size but at this moment I do see a small benefit to having a somewhat bigger body.
> 
> However I do not appreciate so much weight, and think that the 1D4 was still plenty big. I really liked the feel of the 1D4 and its crop factor even though I only shot about 10k with it. As many have stated, that camera "body" was easy to love.
> 
> ...


I don't have big hands either but my favorite body is the DX2 because it balances so darn well with the 70-200 and the 85 1.4. Doing a lot of telephoto and portrait stuff, I tend to use larger glass more frequently and the DX2 is perfect for that


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## Deleted member 381342 (Apr 17, 2020)

3 days, 5 hours, and 39 minutes until the press conference


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## koenkooi (Apr 17, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> 3 days, 5 hours, and 39 minutes until the press conference



The clock in the Canon email was one hour off, the website 6 hours  The .ics does seem to have the correct time and timezone. 

So 3 and a half days left to get some cash to throw at the screen when they properly announce all the things!


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## Whowe (Apr 17, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> The clock in the Canon email was one hour off, the website 6 hours  The .ics does seem to have the correct time and timezone.
> 
> So 3 and a half days left to get some cash to throw at the screen when they properly announce all the things!



I thought the announcement was going to be just video stuff? 

From Canon...
"The new Canon broadcast and cinema products featured during the Virtual Press Conference are aligned with the current and growing needs of the respective industries such as 4K UHD and HDR, as well as evolving technologies. "


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## Deleted member 381342 (Apr 17, 2020)

Whowe said:


> I thought the announcement was going to be just video stuff?
> 
> From Canon...
> "The new Canon broadcast and cinema products featured during the Virtual Press Conference are aligned with the current and growing needs of the respective industries such as 4K UHD and HDR, as well as evolving technologies. "



The email reads “You’ll be able to hear about our new professional imaging products and technologies, before everyone else.”


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## stevelee (Apr 17, 2020)

tron said:


> What no GPS???? Getting it from a smartphone with Canon Camera Connect is an option but not fail proof. Of course bluetooth spends much less battery than GPS so maybe this is the reason.


What I do when traveling with my G5X II and previously G7X II is to take a picture with my iPhone. If I'm somewhere that I won't be able to pinpoint when I'm back home, rather than firing up the Connect connection. I just take a shot with the phone. I can compare time stamps to know where I was at the time. On long bus tours during trips, I don't need to be using up batteries in both devices all day just to have GPS. Of course I try to make sure that I have the camera's clock set correctly. I have used this method both on the Antrim coast of Ireland and on different islands in Hawaii, for example, where I might not be near a town, at least not one I'd recognize and remember.


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## koenkooi (Apr 18, 2020)

stevelee said:


> What I do when traveling with my G5X II and previously G7X II is to take a picture with my iPhone. If I'm somewhere that I won't be able to pinpoint when I'm back home, rather than firing up the Connect connection. I just take a shot with the phone. I can compare time stamps to know where I was at the time. On long bus tours during trips, I don't need to be using up batteries in both devices all day just to have GPS. Of course I try to make sure that I have the camera's clock set correctly. I have used this method both on the Antrim coast of Ireland and on different islands in Hawaii, for example, where I might not be near a town, at least not one I'd recognize and remember.



I do something like this for my 120 film camera, take a photo of the viewfinder with the phone, then take the film picture. I does mean there's less of a rush to get the film developed, though.


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## Lyn (Apr 23, 2020)

Video, Video, Video!
Does he EOS R5 actually take stills?
It is a camera, right?


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## canonnews (Apr 23, 2020)

djkraq said:


> I really hope the R5 has CLog. That would be awesome. I see everything but that in the rumors.


it was announced. clog supported.


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## canonnews (Apr 23, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> Can anyone tell me what the port and button on the front of the body are for?


it's probably the remote terminal port aka like the 5D IV.
button programmable but probably defaults to DOF preview.


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## canonnews (Apr 23, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> No, they all but confirmed [trying to find a citation] that 2:1 internally oversampled 4K is one of the killer apps you get with a 8K capable sensor. I don’t think any Canon camera does line skipping in 4K, they’re all either 1:1 cropping or oversampling (the 90D, M6 2 and 1DX 3 being the ones in the latter category as of now).


no, they mentioned that's one of the things you can do with 8K footage. I really doubt 4K60 4k120 would be oversampled.


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## SecureGSM (Apr 23, 2020)

Lyn said:


> Video, Video, Video!
> Does he EOS R5 actually take stills?
> It is a camera, right?


you have expressed this concern on an another thread just now. Are you going to post this drivel in every single thread or are you done with this for now?
I suggest that you can include this message in your signature and let the world know that way.


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## stevelee (Apr 23, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> you have expressed this concern on an another thread just now. Are you going to post this drivel in every single thread or are you done with this for now?
> I suggest that you can include this message in your signature and let the world know that way.


It a way of dealing with consternation that statements geared for the NAB would make mention of video.


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## SteveC (Apr 23, 2020)

stevelee said:


> It a way of dealing with consternation that statements geared for the NAB would make mention of video.



Oh, the humanity!!!!


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## Michael Clark (Apr 23, 2020)

Lyn said:


> Video, Video, Video!
> Does he EOS R5 actually take stills?
> It is a camera, right?



It was an announcement originally scheduled to be made at the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) trade show. Why would they be talking about stills at a TV industry convention?


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## Sharlin (Apr 23, 2020)

canonnews said:


> no, they mentioned that's one of the things you can do with 8K footage. I really doubt 4K60 4k120 would be oversampled.



Well, 4K120 certainly not. But I'll be rather disappointed if 4K30 won't be 2:1 oversampled…


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## canonnews (Apr 24, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> Well, 4K120 certainly not. But I'll be rather disappointed if 4K30 won't be 2:1 oversampled…


indeed. me too.


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## Aussie shooter (Apr 24, 2020)

Question for those who may know. Would the fact that the R5 can do 8k internally at a higher rate than it can externally be an indication of the CFexpress being faster than transferring date through a cable to an external recorder? And if so would that perhaps help them overcome overheating issues?


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## derpderp (Apr 24, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> you have expressed this concern on an another thread just now. Are you going to post this drivel in every single thread or are you done with this for now?
> I suggest that you can include this message in your signature and let the world know that way.



Well the user did join yesterday and made a couple posts with the same message. Probably a troll?


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## canonnews (Apr 24, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Well the user did join yesterday and made a couple posts with the same message. Probably a troll?


A sign Sony is getting nervous maybe?


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## BillB (Apr 24, 2020)

canonnews said:


> A sign Sony is getting nervous maybe?


Why should Sony be any less nervous than usual?


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## derpderp (Apr 24, 2020)

canonnews said:


> A sign Sony is getting nervous maybe?



Well Sony surely wouldn't be resting on their laurels and not be developing a response to the R5? It's good that there's friendly competition in the mirrorless market, all the better for us consumers.


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## koenkooi (Apr 24, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Well Sony surely wouldn't be resting on their laurels and not be developing a response to the R5? It's good that there's friendly competition in the mirrorless market, all the better for us consumers.



Development and production cycles are way too long to develop anything as a 'response'. Anything Sony can put into stores this year has been developed way before Canon started talking about the R5.


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## Sharlin (Apr 24, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Question for those who may know. Would the fact that the R5 can do 8k internally at a higher rate than it can externally be an indication of the CFexpress being faster than transferring date through a cable to an external recorder? And if so would that perhaps help them overcome overheating issues?



_Can_ the R5 record internally at a higher rate than externally? AFAIK we don't know either way yet. HDMI 2.0 should be able to easily transfer 8K30, however, whether RAW or h.265. Internal recording should be more heat-intensive than external because the card itself is going to produce a lot of heat as it is written to. This is why the capability for fully internal 8K recording is especially impressive.


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## canonnews (Apr 24, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Well Sony surely wouldn't be resting on their laurels and not be developing a response to the R5? It's good that there's friendly competition in the mirrorless market, all the better for us consumers.


if they are just now developing a response, it won't be out for 2-3 years. That would make me nervous.


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## koenkooi (Apr 24, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> _Can_ the R5 record internally at a higher rate than externally? AFAIK we don't know either way yet. HDMI 2.0 should be able to easily transfer 8K30, however, whether RAW or h.265. [..]



HDMI uses uncompressed pixel data, so RAW/H265/etc doesn't affect it, it just outputs plain pixels. HDMI 2.0 can transfer 14.4Gbit/s, which is just enough for UHD 4k60 at 24 bit (8-bit per channel, no HDR). 4k60 is exactly half the bandwidth of 8k30. If the RAW stream is similar to the one on the 1DX3, it's 10-bit HDR, that would be 29.8Gbit/s for UHD 8k and 34.0 Gbit/s for DCI 8k.

HDMI 2.1 raises the bandwidth to 48Gbit/s.


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## Sharlin (Apr 24, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> HDMI uses uncompressed pixel data, so RAW/H265/etc doesn't affect it, it just outputs plain pixels. HDMI 2.0 can transfer 14.4Gbit/s, which is just enough for UHD 4k60 at 24 bit (8-bit per channel, no HDR). 4k60 is exactly half the bandwidth of 8k30. If the RAW stream is similar to the one on the 1DX3, it's 10-bit HDR, that would be 29.8Gbit/s for UHD 8k and 34.0 Gbit/s for DCI 8k.
> 
> HDMI 2.1 raises the bandwidth to 48Gbit/s.



Oh, right, somehow I forgot that HDMI is specifically for transfering pixels rather than arbitrary data, and that demosaiced pixel data actually requires more bandwidth (even at 8-bit per channel) than RAW…


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## Michael Clark (Apr 25, 2020)

BillB said:


> Why should Sony be any less nervous than usual?



Moreso, "Why should Sony _*fanboys*_ be any less nervous than usual?"


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## smr (May 20, 2020)

The R5 does sound like a stunning Camera if you need a Camera which records brilliant stills and video, and all of those other features that come along with it, IBIS, dual slots etc.

I currently have a Canon 80D and want to upgrade so whilst my choices are budget limited I have different paths I could take, meaning different brands, but I love Canon. So for me I want to stay with Canon.

The R5 as I said looks fantastic, but I need a Camera for Landscape Photography and I always use a Tripod, so I don't need 4K video, IBIS etc. I've never had a memory card fail in 5 years so I don't see the need for a dual card slot, I'd just like to upgrade to FF and use EF Lenses with better optics and IQ.

There's one thing about upgrading to FF DSLRs that I would miss though (as I'm discounting the 6Dmk2) and that's the articulating screen. I would miss that I think from my Canon 80D, I use it a lot, especially when shooting low or at an angle etc.

It's a feature which has always been excluded by FF Cameras until now, with the 6Dmk2 being the first FF DSLR to incorporate it. I can see why Sports and Wildlife photographers wouldn't need a flip out screen as a lot of their work is done through the viewfinder, if not all. Who shoots action or wildlife in Live View?

But for Landscape Photography I find it really useful, so that's basically the one feature I'd miss.

I'm thinking about going for the 5DMk IV or the 5DSR but having looked at dxoscore it seems that the 5DMk IV would be the better choice.


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## Michael Clark (May 21, 2020)

smr said:


> I currently have a Canon 80D and want to upgrade so whilst my choices are budget limited I have different paths I could take, meaning different brands, but I love Canon. So for me I want to stay with Canon.
> 
> The R5 as I said looks fantastic, but I need a Camera for Landscape Photography and I always use a Tripod, so I don't need 4K video, IBIS etc. I've never had a memory card fail in 5 years so I don't see the need for a dual card slot, I'd just like to upgrade to FF and use EF Lenses with better optics and IQ.
> 
> ...




Don't dismiss the 6D Mark II offhand. It's a LOT of camera for the current price. Other than minimum Tv (1/4000 vs 1/8000), flash sync (1/180 vs 1/200), and build quality/weather and dust resistance (the 6D Mark II is at about the same level as the 80D), it's pretty close to being the equal of the 5D Mark III in most respects. It's better in terms of an RGB+IR meter compared to the dual layer meter in the 5D3. The AF system is one notch lower, just as the 80D and 90D are.


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## Joules (May 21, 2020)

smr said:


> The R5 does sound like a stunning Camera if you need a Camera which records brilliant stills and video, and all of those other features that come along with it, IBIS, dual slots etc.


If you strip those out of the R5, you're left with an R. Which does have the tilty floppy screen.

If you are used to the 80D's base ISO DR and make use of it often by pushing shadows significantly, be aware that it's the one property where the 80D actually outperforms the 6D II. But really only at base ISO and only if you do make extreme adjustments.

If you do though, an R seems to be the most affordable way to get current Canon sensor gen IQ in a FF camera. It also provides a resolution increase over the 80D and ergonomically I at least didn't find it all that different when trying it out in a store.


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## stevelee (May 21, 2020)

I was about sold on upgrading from my T3i to an 80D (although the name sounded like it needed ritalin). But rumors of a 6D successor were about, so I decided to wait and then see which I wanted. That is when I came to this site to follow rumors. I don't ever underexpose by five stops (at least not on purpose), so I have not regretted getting the 6D2. I will bracket and merge shots in Photoshop when dynamic range is beyond what just about any camera can handle well, such as back-lighted landscapes near sunset and dark stone church interiors where I want interior detail without washing out the colors in stained glass. I've also been pleased at how usable ISO 3200 often is. I've not ever had occasion to want autofocus to hone in on a corner of the frame, so the main complaints about the camera don't seem to apply to me. Other than murals on roll paper I do from panoramas, I don't print on paper larger than 13" x 19", so there is plenty of resolution even with some cropping. I try to compose the picture properly in the viewfinder anyway, so not a lot of cropping is typically needed, certainly not on anything I like well enough to print and hang on the wall. YMMV, of course, and if your needs differ much from mine, you most likely know who you are.


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## Rule556 (May 21, 2020)

Joules said:


> If you strip those out of the R5, you're left with an R. Which does have the tilty floppy screen.
> 
> If you are used to the 80D's base ISO DR and make use of it often by pushing shadows significantly, be aware that it's the one property where the 80D actually outperforms the 6D II. But really only at base ISO and only if you do make extreme adjustments.
> 
> If you do though, an R seems to be the most affordable way to get current Canon sensor gen IQ in a FF camera. It also provides a resolution increase over the 80D and ergonomically I at least didn't find it all that different when trying it out in a store.



I agree... The R sounds like a great fit for him. I bought my R because I knew I didn't need the IBIS, dual slots, or the video features, and a mirrorless camera with the 5DIV sensor fits my sweet spot perfectly, and at a great price (bought in December during the holiday sale).


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## smr (May 22, 2020)

Would there be any disadvantage in using EF Lenses with the EOS R though compared to using EF Lenses on an EF Mount Camera and not having to use an adapter... does the adapter mean that an EF lens isn't be utilised at 100 percent of it's performance and IQ ?

If I did buy an EOS R I would have to buy EF Lenses because the RF Lenses are very expensive, too expensive really.


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## koenkooi (May 22, 2020)

smr said:


> Would there be any disadvantage in using EF Lenses with the EOS R[..]



No disadvantage at all.


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## SteveC (May 22, 2020)

smr said:


> Would there be any disadvantage in using EF Lenses with the EOS R though compared to using EF Lenses on an EF Mount Camera and not having to use an adapter... does the adapter mean that an EF lens isn't be utilised at 100 percent of it's performance and IQ ?
> 
> If I did buy an EOS R I would have to buy EF Lenses because the RF Lenses are very expensive, too expensive really.



The adapter is basically an empty tube, with contacts to pass the signals from the camera to the lens and back again. It's basically an extension tube, from a functional standpoint. You lose nothing optically or otherwise, other than the very slight increased risk of dust and breakage from there being two bayonet points instead of one.

There are fancier adapters, one with a control ring on it for instance, but that just gives you the control ring that (some) RF lenses have and (all) EF lenses don't. Others have drop in filters which can be very handy.


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## Ozarker (May 22, 2020)

smr said:


> Would there be any disadvantage in using EF Lenses with the EOS R though compared to using EF Lenses on an EF Mount Camera and not having to use an adapter... does the adapter mean that an EF lens isn't be utilised at 100 percent of it's performance and IQ ?
> 
> If I did buy an EOS R I would have to buy EF Lenses because the RF Lenses are very expensive, too expensive really.


No disadvantage, in fact, you will find that focus is more accurate. No AFMA needed.


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## neurorx (Jun 30, 2020)

Pro-capture mode?


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## scottkinfw (Jul 3, 2020)

I have a memory card question if anyone can help please.

I am anticipating the R5 arrival, and want to pick up an SD card. I noted that the spec is "UHS-II SD" I didn't realize that there are so many types of SD cards (SDXC, Extreme SDXC, SDHC, SDUC, etc.) and I know that for video I want at least V60, but would prefer V90. Canon said they use the UHS-II SD. So, should I just try to find a UHS-II SD or can another format work? I was reading that the cards can be reformatted, but I don't want to bother with it. Thank you to all you smart people with an answer, and Happy Forth to all.
scott


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## Dragon (Jul 3, 2020)

scottkinfw said:


> I have a memory card question if anyone can help please.
> 
> I am anticipating the R5 arrival, and want to pick up an SD card. I noted that the spec is "UHS-II SD" I didn't realize that there are so many types of SD cards (SDXC, Extreme SDXC, SDHC, SDUC, etc.) and I know that for video I want at least V60, but would prefer V90. Canon said they use the UHS-II SD. So, should I just try to find a UHS-II SD or can another format work? I was reading that the cards can be reformatted, but I don't want to bother with it. Thank you to all you smart people with an answer, and Happy Forth to all.
> scott


I am sure just about any SD card will work since SD is a backward compatible standard, but UHS II cards have extra connection pins with a higher speed bus so they are much faster. V90 is good, because that sets a high minimum write speed which will be needed for both high frame rates and video. BTW, the next SD card is SD Express which is standardized, but not available yet. It will have even more connections and be much faster than even UHS II. SDHC, SDXC, and SDUC only speak to the maximum capacity of the card and not the speed. Older devices cannot see the full capacity of cards that exceed the capacity of the type they were built to work with, but usually, they will operate with limited capacity. The basic rule is that all cards will work to their max speed and capacity in the latest device, but the latest cards will not work to speed or capacity in an older device and in some cases, they won't work at all.


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## slclick (Jul 3, 2020)

What is pro capture mode?


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## scottkinfw (Jul 4, 2020)

Dragon said:


> I am sure just about any SD card will work since SD is a backward compatible standard, but UHS II cards have extra connection pins with a higher speed bus so they are much faster. V90 is good, because that sets a high minimum write speed which will be needed for both high frame rates and video. BTW, the next SD card is SD Express which is standardized, but not available yet. It will have even more connections and be much faster than even UHS II. SDHC, SDXC, and SDUC only speak to the maximum capacity of the card and not the speed. Older devices cannot see the full capacity of cards that exceed the capacity of the type they were built to work with, but usually, they will operate with limited capacity. The basic rule is that all cards will work to their max speed and capacity in the latest device, but the latest cards will not work to speed or capacity in an older device and in some cases, they won't work at all.


Thank you Dragon. So which card to buy? Will the R5 accept the new SD Express?


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## Dragon (Jul 4, 2020)

scottkinfw said:


> Thank you Dragon. So which card to buy? Will the R5 accept the new SD Express?


An SD express card would probably work in UHS II mode if you could buy one, but they are not available yet and it would be no advantage over a UHS II card as that is the highest bus speed the camera supports in the SD slot. Also, SD Express cards will likely be priced pretty close to CF express cards at least to start. If you want to get the full capability of an R5 you will need a CF express card (and a reader).


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## koenkooi (Jul 4, 2020)

Dragon said:


> An SD express card would probably work in UHS II mode if you could buy one, but they are not available yet and it would be no advantage over a UHS II card as that is the highest bus speed the camera supports in the SD slot. Also, SD Express cards will likely be priced pretty close to CF express cards at least to start. If you want to get the full capability of an R5 you will need a CF express card (and a reader).


All the current sdexpress cards we have specs for drop down to UHS-I, not UHS-II.


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