# Is it worth *really* studying photography?



## scottsdaleriots (Feb 6, 2012)

I mean, like paying thousands and thousands of $$$$ for school fees and spending 2-3 years (or more in a classroom and studio-like environment) studying photography. The price of canon lenses are expensive - referring to L lenses and newer pro bodies aren't cheap (had to add something about canon so hoping this thread won;t get deleted/moved).

Reason I ask is coz today was my first day of my course (this entire week is orientation with a few intro-class type sessions). I kinda actually didn't want to be there, it's more so about studio [wedding and portrait, some food] photography IMO. I have two 8am classes and one starts at 8.30am (it takes me 2hrs to get to my school each way). I also have two 12 hr days, including the hrs it'll take for me to get home.

I've tried countless of times to apply to work in a photography studio just to get a feel of what it's like (even tried volunteering to no avail) BEFORE i decide that i want to spend yrs studying photography. But everyone wants that darn piece of paper! I know I've probably answered my own question, it's just why is it difficult to get your foot in the door of the photography industry without a 'certified qualification' and not having to have gone and studied it at school. I want to work from home and people (photographers/teachers) have said that all you need is a camera, lens and a business card. It sounds so simple yet it isn't, least not for me. No one wants their photo taken.

I figure (in my logic) that there's really no point spending thousands of $$$$ and yrs of your life going to uni to studying photography when you can learn a lot off stuff from the internet? In other words I hate my timetable and I don't understand fully why it's so hard to change your status as an 'amatuer' "I'll take photos for free for the experience/minimal $$" photographer to a professional photographer or the very least a semi-pro/enthusiast where people will pay you reasonable $$$ to take their photos. Rant over


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## TexPhoto (Feb 6, 2012)

No. Those schools are largely baby sitting services. Unless mom and dad are paying, no its not worth it.

But here's the thing. Photogrphy like any form of art has 100 people working at Dennny's to pay for their equipment and expenses, than it does making a good living from it. I'm not counting the people at Sears portrait studio as photographers. And if you can't sit through a few classes, are you sure you can stick with it?


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## D_Rochat (Feb 6, 2012)

There's always two sides to this one. Ultimately it's something you need to figure out, but here's my view on it.

Lots can be learned from the Internet and its an incredible source of information. I just don't believe it replaces the benefits of a formal education. Having an experienced teacher to help and guide you while working with you isn't something you'll get online. There are amazing self taught photographers out there, but in my opinion, school is a better option for most. If you can apprentice for someone, that works too. You just have to figure out what's best for you. To look at it another way, one can become a great mechanic by looking up info on the Internet and practicing, but I still want a guy with schooling to work on my vehicle. It gives me that reassuring warm and fuzzy feeling when I'm spending my money. 

Just my opinion....


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## forgetmenot (Feb 6, 2012)

The classes will only get you to a certain point. beyond that you need talent, creativity, business sense... the last one is what most people ignore..

i've started a wedding video business last year and its doing well.. ( although i'm still keeping my full time job ) i learned everything about video on the internet.. prior to that i only know a little bit . 

1 invest ( time - learning , equipment - not too fancy, but get what you need to get job done )
2 do 1-3 extremely cheap wedding to build up your portfolio. ( my first wedding job was a freebies to the couple ) next three wedding were a really cheap wedding, still to build up portfolio.
3. once you have enough portfolio your status will change from amateur to semi pro or pro where people are confident by looking at your portfolio then you can upgrade your pricing. 
4 have a good: attitude, quality portfolio, do lots of marketing. 

i have a lot of tips.. but the main thing is treat it as a business , so you can expand..
www.forgetmenotwedding.com


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## vuilang (Feb 6, 2012)

has anyone ask the protoghapher: Do you have "qualification certificate"?
I only heard: "Can I see your Works?"


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## D_Rochat (Feb 6, 2012)

vuilang said:


> has anyone ask the protoghapher: Do you have "qualification certificate"?
> I only heard: "Can I see your Works?"



For a self employed photographer, no. But if you are looking at getting hired on with a magazine, newspaper or what have you, I'm sure they'd want to see some sort of education background. It boils down to where you want to go with photography. 

Edit- to add another point, there's a very good school in my area that teaches all forms of photography with business foundations. If you were to break all the phases down into workshops, it would cost double. Most working photographers are always going to workshops to expand on their knowledge. Learning is just part of the game. Saying education is pointless is just silly.


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## thatguyyoulove (Feb 6, 2012)

I would definitely say no, as long as you have the drive to actually learn the ins and outs of everything. That being said, a teacher does have its merits. Honestly I think you will receive better education and more applicable knowledge by apprenticing under a professional photographer if you desire a teacher. Plus you gain some cash while you do it rather than spend it on a school. As was mentioned earlier unless you know you are going into a field that requires a certificate it probably isn't needed or asked for. Even then if you have a strong portfolio I doubt many people will turn you down just because you don't have a piece of paper.


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## D_Rochat (Feb 6, 2012)

thatguyyoulove said:


> I would definitely say no, as long as you have the drive to actually learn the ins and outs of everything. That being said, a teacher does have its merits. Honestly I think you will receive better education and more applicable knowledge by apprenticing under a professional photographer if you desire a teacher. Plus you gain some cash while you do it rather than spend it on a school. As was mentioned earlier unless you know you are going into a field that requires a certificate it probably isn't needed or asked for. Even then if you have a strong portfolio I doubt many people will turn you down just because you don't have a piece of paper.



All very true. 

Keep in mind that if you are applying for a staff photographer position somewhere, you will not be the only person hunting for that job. Having only a strong portfolio may put you behind someone with an equally strong portfolio and a piece of paper. It helps to have the edge over the competition. 

Back to the OP, what are your goals in photography? Do you plan on working for yourself or want a staff position somewhere?


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## traumahawk (Feb 6, 2012)

Going off at a slight tangent, what about these various 'professional bodies' where you pay an annual fee and you can get mentors and submit work to qualify for 'professional status' of sorts. I'm thing of the SWWP, BIPP and other 'pro' bodies, any thoughts on these?

Ashley


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## NotABunny (Feb 6, 2012)

Some people may be able to skip school, but for sure nobody can skip practice. If you want to photograph people then (lots of) either workshops or photo classes where one can practice with various models in diverse environments, are a must.



D_Rochat said:


> To look at it another way, one can become a great mechanic by looking up info on the Internet and practicing, but I still want a guy with schooling to work on my vehicle. It gives me that reassuring warm and fuzzy feeling when I'm spending my money.



Unlike in any other field of work, a photographer is (normally) chosen (by clients) based on the photos shown.


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 6, 2012)

traumahawk said:


> Going off at a slight tangent, what about these various 'professional bodies' where you pay an annual fee and you can get mentors and submit work to qualify for 'professional status' of sorts. I'm thing of the SWWP, BIPP and other 'pro' bodies, any thoughts on these?
> 
> Ashley


That's the first time I have heard of these 'professional bodies'. Are they only based in the US? Or do they also operate online.



D_Rochat said:


> thatguyyoulove said:
> 
> 
> > I would definitely say no, as long as you have the drive to actually learn the ins and outs of everything. That being said, a teacher does have its merits. Honestly I think you will receive better education and more applicable knowledge by apprenticing under a professional photographer if you desire a teacher. Plus you gain some cash while you do it rather than spend it on a school. As was mentioned earlier unless you know you are going into a field that requires a certificate it probably isn't needed or asked for. Even then if you have a strong portfolio I doubt many people will turn you down just because you don't have a piece of paper.
> ...


This will be embarrassing, ok well in a nutshell I've been working up the past 2 yrs to build up a portfolio (taking photos, whatnot) and paid thousands of $$$$ for short courses to help gain more knowledge/experience but bthat's the thing these courses only lasted 6hrs or a total of 24hrs (3hrs a week for 8 weeks, etc, depending on the course). I've always like all types of photography (B+W, landscape/cityscape, poritrature/weddings, etc. But especially fond of live music/street). However this is the embarrassing part, I want tobe a cinematographer. COMPLETELY wrong industry I know, yet I didn't actually know (yeah I'm naive and ignorant) butI thought cinematography was in the same tier/area as photography.

Anyways, I would like to do music (live concerts) and would love to work for a magazine - but that obviously requires a qualification and certificate. Which annoys me, it's like saying a self-taught photographer can't and will never be 'good enough' and better qualified than a person who went to school and studied photography.

I'm having doubts, I hate the timetable there are 3hr lectures (one is about the history of photography. I mean, no disrespect, but couldn't I learn that from the internet in like a few hours??) at night which dont end til 9pm. I wont get home til 11pm the earliest. Then there are these HUGE gaps between classes (4-5hr gaps). I thought this was the right course for me - but it's a catch 22, I can't get hired by a photography agency without a certificate, I tried walking in there with a folio, it didn't work for me, so that's why I wanted to do this course so I could get a certificate and get hired.


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## Mikedurg (Feb 6, 2012)

Just like anything in life you get back what you put in. Focus on getting all you can from your courses that you've already paid for, then maybe try and work out a better schedule. That's a pretty rough day!


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## vuilang (Feb 6, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> vuilang said:
> 
> 
> > has anyone ask the protoghapher: Do you have "qualification certificate"?
> ...


I never imply education or workshop is silly. I completely agree when apply for newspaper, mags. You'll need some "paper" to back you up.. However, I think a strong porfolio is even better than the "qualified paper"


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## ereka (Feb 6, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> traumahawk said:
> 
> 
> > Going off at a slight tangent, what about these various 'professional bodies' where you pay an annual fee and you can get mentors and submit work to qualify for 'professional status' of sorts. I'm thing of the SWWP, BIPP and other 'pro' bodies, any thoughts on these?
> ...



SWPP = Society of Wedding & Portrait Photographers
BIPP = British Institute of Professional Photography

Both are UK based.


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## leGreve (Feb 6, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> I mean, like paying thousands and thousands of $$$$ for school fees and spending 2-3 years (or more in a classroom and studio-like environment) studying photography. The price of canon lenses are expensive - referring to L lenses and newer pro bodies aren't cheap (had to add something about canon so hoping this thread won;t get deleted/moved).
> 
> Reason I ask is coz today was my first day of my course (this entire week is orientation with a few intro-class type sessions). I kinda actually didn't want to be there, it's more so about studio [wedding and portrait, some food] photography IMO. I have two 8am classes and one starts at 8.30am (it takes me 2hrs to get to my school each way). I also have two 12 hr days, including the hrs it'll take for me to get home.
> 
> ...



Depends where you live... In Denmark we get paid for studying photography (except ofcourse if you want to join the arty farty geeks you get to pay 6.000 dollars for one season....).

The Danish version uses a mixture of apprenticeship and school. You obtain the apprenticeship at an established master photographer (I was at www.skovdal.dk for 3 years where I learned technical photography and then 1 year at www.mortenlaursen.com) which honed my photoshop skills, and then every 6 months you get called back to school to sort of check up where you are at technically.
My first 6 months I spent learning all about exposure, types of lamps and reflectors and cameras. The next school periodes were more of a theme which have to solve over the course of 4-6 weeks and then get critiqued by our class mates.

The good thing about this way is you get the best of both worlds. From day one I'm in contact with clients doing "real" jobs every day every hour. You build the network straight away.
While in school you get in touch with different areas because not one master photographer or colleague is the same or have the same view on a specific thing.

If you were to learn on your own, I challenge you... you'd learn far slower and have a much narrower experience than through apprenticeship. I know how to operate pretty much all the cameras I could come across for specific jobs. I can set a Sinar without checking the matte plate now... took me a few years to get into the zone but it's pretty useful when standing ready with a large setup which includes food and what not.
This is entirely due to the vigorous exercises we were put through during school.

Now... I know America is another world, but maybe sometimes it would be interesting to get out and take another approach? Did I mention you get paid while you're in school as well? 
The starting wage is roughly 1800 dollars a month and slowly raises as you progress in your studies (union settlements).

School: www.medieskolerne.dk
Guy to talk to: Gunnar Byskov

Seriously.... Why pay for learning?

Edit: handed in a few min ago, shot on Sinar with Phase One back and a 150mm. Daylight and 1 lamp. No exposure correction and lighting except for standard dehazing and sharpning. Added a little saturation:


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 6, 2012)

leGreve said:


> Depends where you live... In Denmark we get paid for studying photography (except ofcourse if you want to join the arty farty geeks you get to pay 6.000 dollars for one season....).
> 
> The Danish version uses a mixture of apprenticeship and school. You obtain the apprenticeship at an established master photographer (I was at www.skovdal.dk for 3 years where I learned technical photography and then 1 year at www.mortenlaursen.com) which honed my photoshop skills, and then every 6 months you get called back to school to sort of check up where you are at technically.
> My first 6 months I spent learning all about exposure, types of lamps and reflectors and cameras. The next school periodes were more of a theme which have to solve over the course of 4-6 weeks and then get critiqued by our class mates.
> ...


that sounds good, getting paid while you learn! unfortunately i live in australia and we dont do it that way  nice photo.



ereka said:


> scottsdaleriots said:
> 
> 
> > traumahawk said:
> ...


Thanks, I'll check them out.



Mikedurg said:


> Just like anything in life you get back what you put in. Focus on getting all you can from your courses that you've already paid for, then maybe try and work out a better schedule. That's a pretty rough day!


I try to focus on what I've learnt in the short courses, but 3 of those courses were taught by the same old man - who is really old school and likes using film more than digital IMO. Those courses were: advanced photoshop, photojournalism, creative photography level 1 (which was pretty much basic intro of DSLR stuff), landscape photography, people and portrait photography and folio preparation (the latter 3 courses taught by the same old man and he repeated a LOT of things not to mention things overlapped, etc. Those were $650 each for 24hrs of classes devided. Rip off I think for that much money).

Really bad schedule, they said I can't change  they said there's more people enrolled this year than previous years so now it's 4 groups instead of 3. It totally sucks, I gotta be at the train by at least 6.15am on wednesday morning to catch the train to make my 8am class (which goes for 6hrs, its a 'prac' class, dunno what we're doing though). Anyways my last class for that day ends at 8.30 but i think the teacher will keep talking and i prob won't get out til 9.45pm. won't get home til about 11.35pm, depends on the train and whether i gotta switch trains to get to the right train station. All in all it's stupid and I'm kinda looking into what other courses (even though it's too late since classes have started) that I can enroll in. 

I forgot to mention the cost of this 1yr course. I thought it'd be about $10,000 (that's what they said last year). But I was wrong, they've increased it to over $11,200+. Cant remember exact cost but it over $11,200. That's ridiculous! I could buy the 1DX and the 5DIII (if canon decide ever to release it). It's not even the highest qualification. Cant remember what Im doing for class tomorrow, prob in the studio talking about OH&S for 4hrs but I remember I have a 3hr lecture at 6pm, which totally sucks.


that typo in the title is annoying me but I cant be bothered fixing it at the moment lol. obviously meant to be 'is it really *woth* studying...'


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## hector_carbuccia (Feb 6, 2012)

Obviously you hate this profession, dude do something different, try Marketing o Advertising :S. If you are not enjoying learning photography that's why can't even get a job in any studio.


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## Old Shooter (Feb 6, 2012)

When I look back at everything photography has been for me; I wouldn't have the same timeline if I hadn't "studied" it first... Took a Journalism class in my freshman year summer school and enjoyed taking pictures more than writing articles. The journalism teacher was also the photography teacher; he persuaded me to take photography as my freshman elective and also intern on the student paper as a staff photographer...

Taking a structured class, where there is a progressive approach to the mechanics and physics of photography, combined with weekly photo assignments meant to demonstrate/reinforce what you have learned, made all the difference to me...

Two years as the school paper photog got me onto the yearbook staff as a junior. That provided me access to a local pro photographer who did the senior portraits and was available as a resource to the yearbook staff. I thought I knew so much at that point; when I started working with him - I realized I knew almost nothing! But because I had the basics down he tolerated me... He knew he could send me into the darkroom and I could soup a roll of film, print a contact sheet, or emerge with a B&W enlargement that met his standards...

When I wasn't at school, I was at his studio. Learning about studio lighting for people and products. Then I got invited to lug cases of heavy equipment around while he shot weddings. Then I eventually got a camera shoved in my hands and became a second shooter. By the time I left high school, I was a reasonably competent photographer - both from a technical standpoint and a practical/business perspective... The only reason I didn't starve to death in college was the occasional grad student who got married on a budget and needed a "cheap" wedding shooter...

I went into police work and photography got me a gig as a forensic photographer/crime scene tech. I missed the "rush" of wedding photography and opened my own studio. Had a great 10 year run and moved off into other things. But I never regretted starting my relationship with a camera in the classroom. Not saying it would work for everyone; but I think it did OK for me...

I hope that whatever mechanism you embrace to learn the craft; it makes you happy and fulfilled...


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## snyder17315 (Feb 6, 2012)

This topic reminds me of countless people I've come across in my years as a professional musician. Lots of guys (and some gals) that just didn't get it... why did they have to really learn how to properly play their instruments? Why was it important to know the difference between an A Major chord and an A Minor? Who cares if you can play to a metronome? And then there's the group that only wants to play A-List clubs and shows, why should they have to spend time in the dirty, scummy, local dives? 

The answer to all of those questions is paying your dues. Photography is an art form, and like all art forms (and pretty much everything in life in general), you work your way up from the bottom. There's a reason for it. It builds character, it builds knowledge and it builds experience. When you try to land a certain gig (musical or photography), you're expected to be competent for that level of work. There is no "on the job" training at that level, you're expected to have already learned the basics through hard work, perseverance, and experience.

Obviously I don't know the OP, but your posts lead me to believe you're quite young and a little naive about how the real world - and more importantly - how business works. It sounds like you want to skip all the hard work and go straight to the good stuff. Clearly you recognize that the industry requires a certain amount of personal effort and professional commitment, yet you continue to question what needs to be done while searching for ways to get around it.

Love it or leave it.


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## liberace (Feb 6, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> leGreve said:
> 
> 
> > Depends where you live... In Denmark we get paid for studying photography (except ofcourse if you want to join the arty farty geeks you get to pay 6.000 dollars for one season....).
> ...



Really sounds like your main problem is that you're not adjusting well to life after high school. I had the same troubles. I enjoyed what I was studying, but there was a disconnect for me between the effort required to succeed as an adult, and what I was willing to do.

Are you studying a HECS funded course, or are you at a private University?


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## unfocused (Feb 6, 2012)

Not sure where to begin:

1) It's clear from your attitude, that you've already answered your question and you are just looking for confirmation. So,here it is: No. It's not worth it. Not for You.

2) If your real interest is in cinematography why are you studying still photography? Find yourself a good film school and go there.

3) So, is this old man that teaches the class like REALLY OLD, like say 50 or something? And, of course, because he's old, he doesn't have any life experience to impart to students right?

4) This confirms what I've thought for some time: education is wasted on the young. I can only wish I had the opportunity to spend 12 hours a day studying photography. But, alas, I need to pay the tuition for two college students so they can complain about how hard it is.

5) Okay, to be fair to you. If you are looking for a financial return on your studies, the odds are pretty slim that you will get it studying photography. The market is way overcrowded, extremely competitive and there will always be someone willing to do the work for less than you. I'll give you the same advice a filmmaker friend of mine gives young persons who say they want to break into the film industry: study accounting. It's a lot more predictable and pays better.


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## awinphoto (Feb 6, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Not sure where to begin:
> 
> 1) It's clear from your attitude, that you've already answered your question and you are just looking for confirmation. So,here it is: No. It's not worth it. Not for You.
> 
> ...



Those are good pointers and advice.... Studying is not for everyone and I second that the industry, whether or not your in filmmaking or still photography, is way over crowded, but then again, what industry isn't? I have a bachelors in Professional Photography with a major in industrial photography... Does that mean I get jobs over some guy with 10 years more experience, better portfolio and willing to work less than I can? Nope. With that being said, if I could do it over again, would I? Yes. Being in that environment, for me, toughened me to the harshest critics... If your work didn't meet expectations, you were likely to find your work in the trash can with a McDonalds application stapled to it. It gave me chances to get experience working with gear I couldn't dream of using if I didn't go to school such as leaf backs, top of the line studio strobes, octoboxes, 1d equipment before 1d equipment became mainstream... Then again if I could do it over again I would have spent more time working on my portfolio and really try to separate myself which I had all that gear at my disposal and didn't have to pay for it (other than extremely high tuition). It also put me in the opportunity to shoot photos I couldn't have otherwise and get me contacts I couldn't have otherwise... It was the difference between shooting as a first or second assistant for some other photographer and being the head photographer in a position to hire first and second assistants... Nothing about photography is cheap, especially training... Only you can determine what you can gain from it and if it's worth doing or not.


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## scottkinfw (Feb 6, 2012)

There is no shortcut to greatness. Mediocrity, on the other hand, has myriad paths to its door.

You need to decide which path you will choose. In life, you must be committed and work very hard for many years at anything to become expert.

If you do not have the commitment then you might do better to stick with photography as a hobby. 

Whatever you decide is fine.

sek



awinphoto said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure where to begin:
> ...


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## CameraLovingGeekyGirl (Feb 6, 2012)

I really think it depends on if you're looking to get hired by a huge company (like a magazine or something) that would really look at whether or not you have education. I think that's pretty much the only thing that would make it really well worth it. Instead of investing that money in school and struggling through it, save it to invest in your business to get yourself started. You could buy some great gear with that money. I've found that most of what I've learned has been through the internet or library books. forgetmenot gave you some really great tips that I think you should definitely consider, too!


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## poppwvu (Feb 6, 2012)

Is it worth it? That is not what you are really asking, because you only can get out of it what you think it is worth. You don't go to school for any profession and come out a success. It can give you the tools to make it easier. The 3 most successful photographers I know where pretty good photogs before they went to school. They all majored in business. Artistic ability can be enhanced not learned. Ability to market yourself and do your own books can be learned. Major in business minor in art. While the degree "paper" may not mean much to a client, depending one what type of photog you become, it's all about what you do with it afterward. Ambition, motivation, and business knowledge are a good toolkit to have. It's a jungle out here. Any advantage is a good one!


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## darklord (Feb 6, 2012)

I never studied photography other than the WPPI and some photography forums here and there. I went from shooting free to about $1500 a wedding in three years and I've done close to 100 weddings and 50 engagements so far. The advantage, if you can call it, is that when I first started out, I have all the Canon L lenses and FF bodies and I know how to use them. And then I know how to use LR and PS. I paid for all those from with my day job salaries. I think wedding photo is about 40% equipment and the knowledge to use them, 40% PS skills and 20% the rest. I won't quite my day job to study photography, to answer your question. But everyone progresses at the own pace and with their own method.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 6, 2012)

It depends on the person. There are those who want to learn in depth, and those who want to learn by discovery and experience. It does depend on your personal mode of learning, and the way you learn does not apply to others.

A set of educational credentials is handy when applying for a job. At the very least, they say that you are willing to listen and learn, which is more rare than you would think.

Obviously, a background of proven experience is even more valuable, if you are a photographer for National Geographic, or Reuters, or the NY Times, that is going to get you a job much faster than a school degree.  But if you are self employed, it might be a uphill battle to convince a employer.


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## 7enderbender (Feb 6, 2012)

Hard to say. I don't think there are any right or wrong answers with this - and from my personal experience with education I could easily argue both ways.

It all depends on personal learning styles and what the ultimate expectations are. First: I'm a firm believer that it is possible to learn pretty much anything on your own that is largely a conceptional thing - and doesn't cost lives when trying things out. So, yes, there is a certain benefit in learning brain surgery with a sound foundation out of medical school and working side by side with an expert (which is what makes very high level education so expensive). Given the wasted time that I experienced during my primary education and the problems in various kinds of school systems that my wife - a former teacher - came to realize we are actually home schooling our children. I was skeptical at first but the results speak for themselves and that's what counts. People can learn pretty quickly when they are interested in something and concepts tie in to a larger context.

So, I think learning the basics of photography is no rocket science. Add creativity and a natural sense of business to it and some people are good to go.

BUT: there are also benefits to certain types of formal education. My children take classes, for instance music classes, sports activities and there will be more to come. Often this is a practical approach of what materials are available or specialized knowledge - or as simple a fact as needing a team for team sports. Same with my own higher education. My business school degree cost me a pretty penny. And I learned a lot in a structured way that fit my schedule at the time. It's much more convenient to sit in an accounting class three nights a week then to force yourself through this rather horrific subject matter. I have no issue reading geekish economics books in my free time but certain things I just wouldn't have done without the pressure of expensive classes, tests, etc.

The other issue is that certain degrees can open doors and put you in a different position for salary negotiations. And not to forget the networking piece of such education.

For photography schools I could see that the latter plays a role and that you get to use equipment that otherwise most of us don't get to try out easily. Is it worth a lot of money? Depends. Probably not since photography isn't really a well paying profession to begin with on average. So there is probably more benefit in applying a well rounded education to finding a niche market and investing yourself in special interests. Nothing wrong with taking additional classes though - and I would recommend including business, marketing and some legal and tech stuff to your curriculum.


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## D_Rochat (Feb 6, 2012)

vuilang said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > vuilang said:
> ...



That wasn't nessessarily directed at you and was more of a general statement. I've seen many of these threads online and people are quick to say education in photography is pointless. I just went off I guess  There are a lot of hack fauxtogs where I live who think all it takes is a camera with lots of MP and are quick to talk crap about real photographers. It gets me wound up lol. There's a lot of great comments on here though.




leGreve said:


> Depends where you live... In Denmark we get paid for studying photography (except ofcourse if you want to join the arty farty geeks you get to pay 6.000 dollars for one season....).
> 
> The Danish version uses a mixture of apprenticeship and school. You obtain the apprenticeship at an established master photographer (I was at www.skovdal.dk for 3 years where I learned technical photography and then 1 year at www.mortenlaursen.com) which honed my photoshop skills, and then every 6 months you get called back to school to sort of check up where you are at technically.
> My first 6 months I spent learning all about exposure, types of lamps and reflectors and cameras. The next school periodes were more of a theme which have to solve over the course of 4-6 weeks and then get critiqued by our class mates.
> ...



I'd love to live in Denmark for at least a few years to experience it. Your Country is a shinning example of how Socialism works and it's not the work of Satan like Fox News likes to portray (about Socialism, not Denmark). They have the largest income equality, happiest population and lowest crime rate and you get paid to become educated. What's not to love?

EDIT - I'm making this edit in response to 7enderbender's comment on page 3. I just don't want to start a trail of back and forth. 

I'm aware of the huge amount of tax they pay in order to get all thse things for "free". The point is that the money, for the most part, is going back to the people in many forms. You can't really compare the standard of "happiness" to other Europian countries either unless they are running their country in the same manner. I believe that a big part of the happiness is because people get paid the same no matter what they choose to do for work. How many of you are miserable and hate their job but stick with it because it pays their bills (my hand is up)? Atleast there you can do what you really enjoy and not have to worry about how much you get paid. 15% of the US population is below the poverty line and 10% in Canada. How many in Denmark? Zip, zero, zilch. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it's pretty damn good.


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## awinphoto (Feb 6, 2012)

You know i've been through it, and every month when I got to pay my student loans, I can definitely argue either way. If the places you are advertising/trying to get hired from demands a degree/certification/whatever, then i guess the market has answered your question for you. You dont need a degree and there are hundreds or thousands of photographers who are probably better than me making a butt load more than I do... but then again those tend to be the exception of the rule. Hows your portfolio? I had one before school... I thought I was pretty good before school... I would be embarrassed to show it today. Would you be happy shooting as a wedding photographer or would you prefer to shoot large scale commercial shots? What do you want to do? For a wedding photog, you can definitely start small an work your way up... It would definitely help, but there's also something to say about being able to shoot just about any camera, any lighting set-up, strobe, power pack, monolight, continuous hot light, studio, outdoors, any time any place any where... It just depends what you want out of it... where you want to go... I had classmates go on to shoot for boeing, acura, etc... I got clients such as wells fargo, freddie mac, etc... it isn't all glamorous and we still have to work our tails off, but it is what it is...


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 7, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> You know i've been through it, and every month when I got to pay my student loans, I can definitely argue either way. If the places you are advertising/trying to get hired from demands a degree/certification/whatever, then i guess the market has answered your question for you. You dont need a degree and there are hundreds or thousands of photographers who are probably better than me making a butt load more than I do... but then again those tend to be the exception of the rule. Hows your portfolio? I had one before school... I thought I was pretty good before school... I would be embarrassed to show it today. Would you be happy shooting as a wedding photographer or would you prefer to shoot large scale commercial shots? What do you want to do? For a wedding photog, you can definitely start small an work your way up... It would definitely help, but there's also something to say about being able to shoot just about any camera, any lighting set-up, strobe, power pack, monolight, continuous hot light, studio, outdoors, any time any place any where... It just depends what you want out of it... where you want to go... I had classmates go on to shoot for boeing, acura, etc... I got clients such as wells fargo, freddie mac, etc... it isn't all glamorous and we still have to work our tails off, but it is what it is...


I'd love to shoot the big time commercial stuff but I'd say they def need to see your qualification on a piece of paper - makes me mad. I think I could settle being a commercial photographer and not a cinematographer. 



poppwvu said:


> Is it worth it? That is not what you are really asking, because you only can get out of it what you think it is worth. You don't go to school for any profession and come out a success. It can give you the tools to make it easier. The 3 most successful photographers I know where pretty good photogs before they went to school. They all majored in business. Artistic ability can be enhanced not learned. Ability to market yourself and do your own books can be learned. Major in business minor in art. While the degree "paper" may not mean much to a client, depending one what type of photog you become, it's all about what you do with it afterward. Ambition, motivation, and business knowledge are a good toolkit to have. It's a jungle out here. Any advantage is a good one!


if someone had asked me 1 year or 6months ago if i wanted a career as a photographer i would've answered with a firm yes. But now I have doubts because cinematography is in a different industry and it's about "moving pictures" not "still images" as the teacher who taught my courses told me. I'd love to work for something like vogue but without a doubt they'd want someone to be qualified and have experience and then some. And people say that those like local magazines (least not vogue or GQ) use freelance photographers. I wouldn't mind doing that but I don't know how I would get my foot in the the door. I have doubts, and I know I won't put 110% in the course if it's something I don't enjoy.

I would love to do music gigs, like for the 'big names'. But you need a media pass and I dunno how to get one, and they don't just give them out to anyone. I would think it's almost impossible to get one - maybe it's easier to get one if you live in the US..? I dont know, but it kinda seems that way to me.



hector_carbuccia said:


> Obviously you hate this profession, dude do something different, try Marketing o Advertising :S. If you are not enjoying learning photography that's why can't even get a job in any studio.


no, the timetable for my classes has nothing to do with me "not getting a job" in the photography industry. It's the school that's made the timetable.



unfocused said:


> Not sure where to begin:
> 
> 1) It's clear from your attitude, that you've already answered your question and you are just looking for confirmation. So,here it is: No. It's not worth it. Not for You.
> 
> ...


2. like i admitted before i was naive and ignorance and a little dumb to think that cinematography had everything to do with the photography side of things rather than film, let's leave it at that. i am trying to get into a film course, it's not easy now as they're (all courses) are starting now/in a couple of weeks time.

3) yes he was old, he had white hair and a bald spot and a limp and a bit of a niggle when he walked. let's not get down to the fine points of the old man. i'm not saying that he doesn't have experience that i couldn't learn from i was saying that since i did 3 courses that he taught in the span of 3 months he repeated about 97% of everything from the two other courses. to me it was a waste of money on my part, i should have just done one course instead of signing up for the other two (which at the time i didnt know he would be teaching them). i've got 3 exact sets of hand outs that he gave out in those 3 courses. everything he said i heard it 3 times and then some.

4) i disagree and agree. i'm not as young as you might think but you'll probably think i'm young anyway (i'm not going to reveal my age). i do agree that aducation is wasted on some of the young who don't deserve it.

5) lol i'm no expert in maths nor would i liek to do it on a daily basis. but i've heard some people say that rather than study photography you should go study business - for the marketing perspective it'll be more helpful and you are able to do your accounts, to a degree.



I got back home literally like 1hr ago. I had a 4hr "enchance and manipulate and output" class today which about 90% the teacher talked about stuff and showed us some of his photos and a few slideshows. we did do a bit with creating our own images or something using pixels in photoshop (if you know what i mean, i'm really tired now). then had a 3hr lecture on the history of photography. Literally for the first 2hrs of that class I was trying not to fall asleep, i might have dozed off for a few seconds Im not sure lol. Then for the last 1hr we watched two videos, one was about william henry fox talbot and the other about some woman who i cant recall. martha..? she was british. i should be sleep now, have an 8am class, gotta leave the house at 6am to catch a bus and a train (never gonna leave my car at the train station where i catch my train, it's a whole nother story but its quite dangerous and filled with dodgy people). I also have antoher lecture tomorrow night with 6hrs of a lighting class. "I am trying to change my timetable coz i really hate it but it's not working.

thanks for everyone's input and for listening to my rants. i do have doubts, not sure if i'll quit coz i've worked to get into this (or the course photography course from this institution) for the past 2yrs building up my folio, etc. keep your advice rolling in, coz if i do quit this course i dont want to regret it when i should've just sucked up a bit and kept at it. I think the photography industry is a bit of a perculiar one - the paps make thousands of dollars for invading (most of the time) celebs' privacy IMO. but for the average person like me or the next poster it's hard to get a stable job and keep the income coming in *shrugs* I dont know ???


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## awinphoto (Feb 7, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> I'd love to shoot the big time commercial stuff but I'd say they def need to see your qualification on a piece of paper - makes me mad. I think I could settle being a commercial photographer and not a cinematographer.



There are lot of photography jobs out there that dont require a piece of paper... Some make lots of money (weddings/portraits/inspection) but portfolio is king and competition is fierce... Thats where you hear the term "starving artist" thrown around... To get big with fewer competition and where I'm assuming you want to get into, you need business skills, you need to not only sell yourself but have the experience to back it up... Just like any job out there, if you want to play the blues, you need to pay the dues... and that's either time and effort or a piece of paper. For a while in the 80's-90's, it was rumored that if you wanted to get a job, any job, in vegas, even a waitress, you needed a degree... It could be in Frisbee throwing, but the employers wanted to know you were committed enough to spend 3-4 years to get the degree, maybe you would be committed enough to stay with their company and not be just passing through. 

Cinema is another venture from photography completely. I knew a few who went through the movie program at my school while I was in the stills program... They learn not only the ABC's of shooting, filming, scripting, casting, editing, etc... they also had to learn finances, budgeting, sponsoring, pitching proposals to corporations asking for money... It could have changed, but I remember some film makers say (when they were shooting actual film) that for like 20 seconds of film cost like $90 and to have it processed in a lab was like $150-200 on top of that... and then to have enough film for cut in's and cut outs... enough film for a few takes and in case there's any F ups... you could see how this got VERY pricey very quickly and there was no room for error. I'm sure it's gotten cheaper with the digital age, but then when you throw in costs for storage, back up storage, processors, etc... There's a lot of money to be made and lost... That's a lot of money to entrust to someone who may not have put in the time or effort to get a piece of paper.


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## Caps18 (Feb 8, 2012)

It is tough question. I never had 'professional training', but I have read a lot of books, watched a lot of TV shows, and received a lot of tips on-line. Having the right gear is really important if you want to practice and know how to use the equipment to take great photos.

Now, there are some techniques that a knowledgeable teacher can show you. And I'm sure I would benefit from taking a class like this: http://www.artwolfeworkshops.com/index.php

If we are talking about portraits, people, and product photography, I would be lost without training. Even flash photography, I need to learn a lot more about.


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## 4jphotography (Feb 8, 2012)

I think it can go either way. I "stumbled" into photography in my twenties when a paper I worked at needed someone to shoot, I did, they liked it and kept feeding me more and more photo work. A year later I was a staff photog, and then from there went on to mags and freelance journalism. Now (ten years later) I shoot as a "professional freelancer", but I also studied on my own, had great mentors and knew the industry. I think the real key is to be humble, work hard, and never stop pushing yourself. Going to school may show discipline and get you the needed "piece of paper" for corporate obs, but for more mainstream stuff I think the portfolio is king. And, like anything else, a little luck.


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## awinphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

In the end, portfolio is king, the same way any boss would choose the best, most qualified candidate... No boss will hire a dumb [email protected]# college graduate when they have brilliant non grad non grads... but then again in some situations, when they are torn between two people, it may be what it comes down to. I know a lot of "self made" pro photographers and I have plenty of respect for them... For giggles I looked at two job postings by a local news channel and a local newspaper for "Photographer" openings... neither i'm personally interested in, but both in the description said "preferred college graduate or equivalent experience". There are jobs out there if you dont want to get raped in tuition and lab fee's, but sometimes you will have to work your way up. Good luck


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## papa-razzi (Feb 8, 2012)

Photography is my hobby - I don't make any money from it, so I speak without a lot of knowledge on the business side of the industry.

Having said that, I imagine it is getting very, very hard to make any money in photography. The barriers to entry in the photography business are very low. Equipment is cheap, relatively speaking. Not everyone is good at it, but it sure is easy to say you are a wedding photographer by putting up a web page, shooting a few friends weddings, etc. Someone posted earlier that after 3 years he/she was making $1500 a wedding. If you spend a total of 15 hours on the project - at the wedding, reception, pre-wedding interviews, post processing, maybe you have a helper you need to pay, etc. You are not doing much better than minimum wage. How is that good?

I guess the really, really good photographers make good money. But it is kind of like saying - I want to be a pro athlete, or professional musician (everyone and their brother plays the guitar). The really good ones make great money - but that is for the very few and very talented, and in some cases also very lucky. The majority of the rest can barely scrape out a living. I know several insanely talented musicians that just get by.

So, my advice to the OP - if you don't absolutely love photography, have it as a passion and obsession in your life, are driven and have a thirst for learning everything about it - then it isn't for you. If you answer yes to all those things, then that drive and passion will likely lead you to become great - or at least make a decent living and love what you do - which is a major life win if you can pull that off.


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 8, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> In the end, portfolio is king, the same way any boss would choose the best, most qualified candidate... No boss will hire a dumb [email protected]# college graduate when they have brilliant non grad non grads... but then again in some situations, when they are torn between two people, it may be what it comes down to. I know a lot of "self made" pro photographers and I have plenty of respect for them... For giggles I looked at two job postings by a local news channel and a local newspaper for "Photographer" openings... neither i'm personally interested in, but both in the description said "preferred college graduate or equivalent experience". There are jobs out there if you dont want to get raped in tuition and lab fee's, but sometimes you will have to work your way up. Good luck


i know, it makes me so annoyed when newpapers/pro photography studios are seeking people with qualifications that they can show via a darn piece of paper. It's stupid coz IMO i'd say just about anyone with the knowledge and experience and who are confident in what they're doing can shoot just as good if not better than a college grad student. It's so unfair.



papa-razzi said:


> Photography is my hobby - I don't make any money from it, so I speak without a lot of knowledge on the business side of the industry.
> 
> Having said that, I imagine it is getting very, very hard to make any money in photography. The barriers to entry in the photography business are very low. Equipment is cheap, relatively speaking. Not everyone is good at it, but it sure is easy to say you are a wedding photographer by putting up a web page, shooting a few friends weddings, etc. Someone posted earlier that after 3 years he/she was making $1500 a wedding. If you spend a total of 15 hours on the project - at the wedding, reception, pre-wedding interviews, post processing, maybe you have a helper you need to pay, etc. You are not doing much better than minimum wage. How is that good?
> 
> ...


i love photography, i only developed a love and passion for it less than 5yrs ago but i've always been interested and love the film industry a little more. i thought cinematography would be a perfect blend of the two; combining my love and passion for photography with my interest and love for the entertainment/film industry. But again i think you'd need to go to school to work as a professional cinematographer...?



awinphoto said:


> scottsdaleriots said:
> 
> 
> > I'd love to shoot the big time commercial stuff but I'd say they def need to see your qualification on a piece of paper - makes me mad. I think I could settle being a commercial photographer and not a cinematographer.
> ...


It's hard these days I think to get a professional paid gig (with constant incoming work) as a pro photographer especially in the 'commercial' areas like for magazines, media, etc. I think it's not as hard to become a 'pro' wedding photographer; getting many loyal people willing to pay you hundreds if not thousands of dollars for taking pics at their wedding is a different matter i think. I've always been interested and loved the entertainment industry (music, movies/film, etc). I've only started to enjoy and develop a strong interest in photography less than 5yrs ago. These are two very expensive mediums, but I wouldn't have it any other way.


once again i was so tired today and was unfortunately late for my class - was went for 6hrs. it was the "applying lighting techniques" in the studio class. most of it was prac, like setting up light stand with lights and floor stands and c stands, etc. we then got tested on it in groups of 3 in the middle of a large circle formed by the other students, it was intimidating, i stuffed up a couple of times. it was the first class i enjoyed, but its very long. our first assignment is food photography. our 3hr lecture got cancelled at the last minute - 5mins before it was scheduled. they're expecting us to buy a FF camera, the 5dII specifically with either 17-40mm, 24-70 mkImm or the 24-105mm lens. And a laptop and a monitor to edit with - suggesting to get macs


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## RuneL (Feb 9, 2012)

Of course it's worth it if you find a school that pushes your limits and puts you in situations where you would not find yourself normally and what you produced is put under harsh critique, not circle jerking. The goal should be strengthening content and story telling, not how to setup a flash, IMO. 


If it's just how to do stuff technically I wouldn't bother, though some employers demand you have a formal education.


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 13, 2012)

*Re: Is it worth *really* studying photography?still*

Can someone please answer me this (as I'm now totally confused, googling(?) things isn't helping me ATM):

*Can you still be a 'still image photographer' in the film industry? Like take behind the scenes photos in a movie (whilst it's still in production, etc)? I don't know what the profession is called and I'm really curious, I dunno what to google*


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## liberace (Feb 13, 2012)

*Re: Is it worth *really* studying photography?still*



scottsdaleriots said:


> Can someone please answer me this (as I'm now totally confused, googling(?) things isn't helping me ATM):
> 
> *Can you still be a 'still image photographer' in the film industry? Like take behind the scenes photos in a movie (whilst it's still in production, etc)? I don't know what the profession is called and I'm really curious, I dunno what to google*



Yes. Short answer -



> A unit still photographer or simply, stills photographer is a person who creates still photographic images specifically intended for use in the marketing and publicity of feature films in the motion picture industry and network television productions.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_still_photographer


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## seniman (Feb 13, 2012)

Yes, there is a career to have to be a unit still photographer.

I think you mentioned your in Australia, there are a definitely a few people people from there who make their living doing exactly this.

Your other question: definitely don't need to go to school to work as a professional cinematographer-same case for photography, plenty current working cinematographer did not go to school but took the assistant/apprentice route.

I've got a degree in photography and another degree in filmmaking.

Not once I've been asked to show my "piece of paper" qualification or asked what grades I've got to get a job. But, there has been plenty of times that I've got a gig just by the way of association, knowing that I've gone to school at A and B is good enough indicator for them that I know what I'm doing. However, for personal clients, its as everyone says here-portfolio is king.

My personal opinion:
1. most good still photographers-and I've been lucky enough worked with some of highest regarded ones in the industry, even the ones that are personally requested to shoot the President-are not necessarily good cinematographers BUT
2. All good cinematographers are also good-or at least decent-still photographers, I've yet to find one cinematographer that can't do good photography. This is my own observation so far working with over 50 cinematographer in a few diff countries. Who knows I might find one in the future who doesn't know how to take a still image, unlikely though from my experience so far.


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## STPhotos (Feb 13, 2012)

I've been shooting for 10 years and sell my work at a few places, do the occasional family, wedding, baby stuff. I'm currently in school working towards a BFA in photography. What I'm enjoying the most is the journey through art. From the history classes to various studios in different mediums, I've gained so much without even touching a camera. My design teacher said "You do not need to go to school to be an artist. But what you gain from school is greater perspective." I couldn't agree more. School broadens your network as well. 
But it all comes down to what you want to do with your craft.


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 13, 2012)

seniman said:


> Yes, there is a career to have to be a unit still photographer.
> 
> I think you mentioned your in Australia, there are a definitely a few people people from there who make their living doing exactly this.
> 
> ...


Yep I'm from australia- though the problem is, IMO, all (pretty much) the work is in hollywood or the very least in the US. All the 'big time' jobs as a still photographer in the film industry.

Another question: if you could only choose ONE area/course to study, which would you choose to study to become a still photographer wprkingg in the film industry. 1) a photography course, or 2) a film/digital media/bachelor of media and communication course? from a quick google search i found that you need connection and need to wnetwork in the film industry and of course folio is king as everyone's said already. I am kinda impatient now and cant be bothered spending 5-6yrs of my life studying and completing 2 degrees - one photography course and another film course. I dunno, you seem to have most of the info that i want/need to know as you've completed both degrees.


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## awinphoto (Feb 13, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> seniman said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, there is a career to have to be a unit still photographer.
> ...



Australia could be as much of a challenge as lets say an american living in a small market in the middle of nowhere... It's tough but can be done. I've been to Australia once and would love to visit again... Perhaps looking into local regional magazines... maybe not the newspapers or such, but do you have magazines dedicated to your own city you can get at local diners or coffee shops? A lot of them look for freelancers (and are typically cheaper than having someone on staff do things on the clock). Perhaps even starting up your own website and posting your work. College affiliations are great tools to get in the door, how long of a program is your school you are attending? 3 years? 1 year? 4 years? Do they offer accelerated certificate programs? The school I went to, albeit in the USA, offered a 4 year degree (what I went after), a 2 year associates degree, and a certificate program (i think 1 year or 1.5 years?) That's something to think of. As far as your question... still photography requires a lot of discipline and schools tend to get a lot more technical into the math and science behind photography (much more than you ever think you need to know) but when times come where you may think you cannot shoot in, then tidbits of info starts flowing allowing you to shoot when you otherwise wouldn't. The multimedia program, while not as technical/detail oriented as perhaps the still program, actually may, in the long run, suit you better as I have an inkling that this is where the future of photography is going. Graphic Design, video, lay out, photography, web... the more tools you have at your disposal, the more resources and skills you can use and possibly the easier you can find jobs... I know there are quite a lot of "stills only" photographers, but in my opinion, they are a dieing breed, much like the "film only" photographers were. As technology advances and progresses, the more you can adapt and pick up skills along the way, the better off you will be.


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 14, 2012)

^ Thanks. I was kina thinking the same as you - that photography is going towards more the film/digital side, i mean techonology is always advancing. The two film degree courses are run at a completely different institution (which is a lot closer than the one i go to now). my current institution is globally well known for its photography courses (there's onl.y 2 courses, a 2yr and a 3yr - one's more practical doing hands on stuff and the other's more theory based).

I'm also thinking the film industry is just as hard if not hard (IMO i think it is) to break in to, even just to get your foot in the door. Would you suggest studying both degrees? Adds up to 6yrs in total and right now in my life I cant be bothered spending 6yrs and thousands and thousands and thousands of $$$ with tutition fees and equipment, etc.

i mean, it's feasible and possible to do the film degree and learn about the photography stuff online and break in top the film industry as a still photographer...isn't it?


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## seniman (Feb 14, 2012)

Just guessing, are you at RMIT now?

Yes, your correct, generally the film industry is harder to get into. Personally, if in your shoes, I won't bother spending another 6 years studying. Probably halve that time or less, or try to do a RPL. My opinion has always been, get what you want, if they are not offering you want you need-in knowledge or connections-then leave.

Either discipline you take, it will potentially be a long hard road, I know both photographers and filmmakers at age that still need to have a full time desk job of sorts to support themselves, yet there are some in 20's that are already in six figure incomes from photo or filmmaking. Its not about what you know, but also who you know.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 14, 2012)

have you though about doing diplomas at TAFE instead? much cheaper and shorter with a more practical industry focus?


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 14, 2012)

^ Yeah I have, I applied. But I think i'd still have the same issue - trying to figure out _if_ photography is what I really want to do - I mean there are so many different genres and styles of photography (which all appeal to me in one way or another). 



seniman said:


> Just guessing, are you at RMIT now?
> 
> Yes, your correct, generally the film industry is harder to get into. Personally, if in your shoes, I won't bother spending another 6 years studying. Probably halve that time or less, or try to do a RPL. My opinion has always been, get what you want, if they are not offering you want you need-in knowledge or connections-then leave.
> 
> Either discipline you take, it will potentially be a long hard road, I know both photographers and filmmakers at age that still need to have a full time desk job of sorts to support themselves, yet there are some in 20's that are already in six figure incomes from photo or filmmaking. Its not about what you know, but also who you know.


I've already spent 2yrs studying something i didnt enjoy at all (hospitality and event management). dont think I can do RPL for photography since I havent done any of the like before. wished short courses counted but they dont. i'd like to do an apprenticeship so i could learn and get paid at the same time but i cant find anything on offer. I'd settle if i got hired at the photography studio so i could learn the ropes, but once again catch 22, needs a qualified person with a certificate.

how hard is it to get into the live music/concert photography area? that's another one that appeals to me, i'm so undecided it's not even funny lol. i figure you'd need not only to be qualified and went to school for it(? i dunno, do you need a certificate for that kind of stuff?). it seems to me that whatever i want to do, portfolio is king. no matter what. i would pay (up to) an extra $30 on top of the ticket price for a music concert just to be able to get a media/press pass so i could get right up close to the band/singer and take photos. i've googled and found there are a couple options but once again IMO it comes down to who you know and what you know and your folio. 

hypothetical, but: if i did choose a film degree over a photography one and completed the degree and wanted to do music/film/wedding photography would i need to do another degree? i know you dont need to go to school for a qualification to get a certificate to become a wedding photographer. 

i'm not so sure this forum is the right place to be asking these questions since we're all photographers and i'd say one or two people would know much about the film industry. I'm at a crossroads and it sucks coz i'm a fence sitter :-\


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## wickidwombat (Feb 14, 2012)

A friend of mine is doing film at tafe, it is very broad not specific to cinematography although it does include cinematography and photographic units. (he still cant take a still photo to save his life) i'm not sure what his cinematographer skills are like but he is more interested in the director/producer aspect


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## distant.star (Feb 14, 2012)

My advice to this OP is to enlist in the military if he's old enough. They'll provide much needed direction.


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## Hillsilly (Feb 14, 2012)

With many jobs there is often a big disparity between the number of people studying and the number of potential job opportunities. Photography is one of them.

I also work in such an industry, and it took me several months to find my first decent job. Now, I run my own business and the job market is still as tough as ever. Twenty years ago, similar businesses wouldn't think twice about hiring a promising undergraduate. Now, I've got applicants with Masters degrees and PhD students applying for entry level jobs. In Australia, during the Howard era, there was a 50% jump in university enrolments along with significantly increased TAFE participation. Now it is virtually expected that people would do some additional formal training after completing high school, even when the job you are targeting doesn't really require it.

If a lot of people are currently studying photogrpahy as university, then employers will start expecting it and it will become tougher and tougher to get that first job without a degree. The degree becomes the key to entry. And even then, it still doesn't guarantee a job.

But, realistically, two years after you get your first photography related job, nobody will care if you have a degree or not. They will be more interested in your character, experience and how you perform. Therefore, you're probably in a catch 22 situation. You probably don't really need to study, as on the job training should be sufficient. But its harder to get a job without the study. The easy option is to get a year or two's study under your belt and see how you go on the job market. As an undergraduate, you'll find work experience opportunities easier to obtain, and who knows what might come from that?


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## archangelrichard (Feb 14, 2012)

From a teacher: Different people learn in different ways. When I was in college (many, many years ago ...) A professor had designed what he called the "classroom Anarchy" system - you could choose any topic that demonstrated 30 hours work at least thinking about Political, Social and Moral Philosophy, any medium, etc. What happened though' is that many of the upper classmen simply could not think of a single thing on their own, so at the end he had to assign "book reports" for those who were not self motivating

Some people need classrooms just as some employers need "credentials" (start bringing a portfolio of your work); the old "whichever hand has the most paper in it is my choice because I don't have to think about it, just weigh it"

I have people who don't like my classes because they contradict the standard fare; if someone brings up terms like "rule of thirds" I ridicule that "in the box" thinking; there are at least 3 rules of thirds and none of them are worth anything -- Art does not work by rules (and even believing there is such a thing as a rule demonstrates you just don't get it; IMHO)

People who are looking for "good paper" (i.e.e "credentials) are often looking more for conformity, affirmation of their choices; not ability (if you want a full debate go to any Mensa site; certified "Geniuses" have a real disdain for "paper" certifications, they tend to inflict conformity

Get yourself published to create paper, your local humane society probably has a magazine and need volunteers' look for your hobbies (for example model railroading magazines, even very minor ones, are "published" (and having a copy with the magazines letterhead on it has "certification"); Car clubs and magazines; something YOU are interested in. Lok for people with web sites, Builders like to have pics of before - during - after remodels, etc. to sell their work, and it sells yours too. Artists of any sort do web sites and need good photos of their work; especially crafts (and don;'t forget the less "officious" sites like those making leather / fetish goods, scantilly clad calendars, etc -- it is all PAID work that gets you into a market

ANY paid work is worth more than "paper" certifications, work towards a portfolio of experience


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## kentandersen (Feb 14, 2012)

this question is getting the same answer as the musicians that ask if it is worth studying music...

If it is money you are gaining for... then the answer is: NO. 

If it is the passion of learning more and the dream of creating art that drives you... then the answer is: NO

ART is for 90% of the people not a Gold mine, for those 10% that do make an living, they would probably earned more if they put the same energy into almost anything else.


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 16, 2012)

kentandersen said:


> this question is getting the same answer as the musicians that ask if it is worth studying music...
> 
> If it is money you are gaining for... then the answer is: NO.
> 
> ...


What's your idea of a 'yes' then? 


I've just found out what my other 3hr lecture class is, just about choosing the right camera and lens that's all I know about it. It's called "use 35mm". Anyway there was a q&a the teacher said to write down any question about photography that we wanted to know the answer to, technical or otherwise, on some paper and we all handed it to him. I wrote down the obvious: whether it's necessary to have a photography degree to work in the film and music (concert) industries  coz I really need to know the answer. He answered a few which weren't mine even though I nicely asked him to answer mine on the night. Seriously, some of the questions! When he read out the question to everyone I was thinking how on earth did those people get into the course. In a nutshell lemme break this down: over 1000 people applied for the course, but only 200 those of get interviewed and from those they only pick about 75-80. The number of people they pick kinda depends on how many people they want. 

On a track, three people asked what 35mm means (they all put their hand up when the teacher asked who wanted to know), one asked if manfrotto were the only ones who made the quick release tripods, another asked about what bag they should buy, another asked about lens they should get (all comes down to what you're shooting and preferrences and $$). Here's the kicker, someone asked "how do I keep my background always sharp?". Seriously I dunno how they got into the course when SO many people wanted to get it. I also found out some of these tidbits about fellow students: About 4 people have NEVER used photoshop before, 3 haven't used a SLR before nor know squat about just how expensive photography is. They thought the big external diffusers came with the speedlites when you bought it and thought battery grips came with the camera or extra battery that you buy. Maybe I'm being harsh..? I dunno but at the moment I'm still trying to decide whether this course is for me and trying to find a photography studio, any at this point even if they're like 1hr away from where I live, to hire me so I can get some real life hands on experience and get my first paid photography job so I can work towards a better folio and possibly gain contacts. 

I realized I got ripped off for my school books, bought the mark galer (ive actually met him, but it was under formal circumstances - he interviewed me when i applied, thoughh i didnt actually know it was him at the time. Wish he would hire me as an assistant. That would certainly look good on my photography resume! ) PS cs5 book for $60, it's $25 on amazon! I also bought this ACMP (the Aussies might know it) "bible" book about marketing, it was $75. It's pretty lame, teacher told me it would help me make thousands of dollars - when I have time I might post a pic of it. 

For a food assignment we'll be shooting for 7hrs just to get that one shot using a 5x4 camera. We also have to disassemble that camera and reassemble it in about 20mins. This course is good but I dunno if it's right for me. Hope you didn't mind me ranting a bit again


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## wickidwombat (Feb 17, 2012)

Never under estimate how stupid the majority of the worlds population actually are
stupidity has no prejudice it effects all races all sexes equally.

They didnt ask you to submit a portfolio of work for entry consideration?
Tafe require a portfolio of set shots to be submitted and entry is determined by a panel review of the portfolios
still a very high application to acceptance ratio too but at least then they are certain the people that apply know what a camera is and which end to hold...


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## Hillsilly (Feb 17, 2012)

OK - it sounds like you've got an edge over a few of your fellow students. But how are you going to keep that edge and stay ahead of the pack? 

The 80 other people in your course are your job market competition. At least if you stay in the class, you'll be able to prove to all and sundry how good you are compared to them. Above average grades, maybe an award or two, a few glowing references and your job prospects should improve dramatically. 

But don't let your experiences with these people in your first week deceive you. Very few school leavers know much about anything when they leave high school. Many probably chose your course because it sounded fun or cool. But if they are driven to succeed, then they will achieve. Plus, I doubt that your exams will involve questions like "what does 35mm mean?". Instead, you'll be given tasks that require you to demonstrate artistic vision. A knowledge of equipment can only take you so far. If I was looking at two people in their first week and person A had a good technical knowledge about how to use a DSLR and person B didn't know much about cameras, but spent every second of the day drawing or painting or some other creative task, I'd be backing person B to be kicking Person A's butt in a photography course after 6 months. 

The people in your course would have been selected for a reason. If its not their camera knowledge, it must be their art skills. Watch out!


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 18, 2012)

^ true. i am kinda struggling, i think im person A coz im having doubts about studying there. but true in what you said about people being knowledgable in other areas. 



wickidwombat said:


> Never under estimate how stupid the majority of the worlds population actually are
> stupidity has no prejudice it effects all races all sexes equally.
> 
> They didnt ask you to submit a portfolio of work for entry consideration?
> ...


lol true that. my bad.

yeah they did, every photography course you to submit 2 folios (kinda) - one for selective to see if you got in the interview process. and one for during the interview (you could use the same pics or change some). over 1000 people applied for the uni course and over 700 for the non-uni (that's just at my institution, the interviewers told me those stats about people applying, not sure why). we had to submit a lot of other things as well. there's usually 700 people who apply for the bachelor course - they got 300 more than expected.

Right now i am just waiting for my uni application for the film/media courses at a different instution to get _accepted_ or declined. Fingers and toes crossed, if not i might have to withdraw from this photography course :-\


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## CanonGuy (Feb 18, 2012)

Is nothing lessons worth to buy? You get only basic idea of it and learn different techniques but best way to learn it is just going to take pictures and trying different settings, lighting etc.
All the things you learn on the field not in school.


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## BillyBean (Feb 18, 2012)

There's been a lot of debate in the national press in the UK recently about the value of some school qualifications (GCSEs - taken at 16 after 2-3 years study). I have to say that my view of the photography GCSE qualification is that it's not worth the paper it's printed on. A friend of mine asked me to spend some time with her daughter recently, who has just completed her photography GCSE (and passed with flying colours). Whilst she could take decent pictures and had a good eye, technically she didn't understand even the most basic things - for example, she was fascinated with my collection of lens hoods - she had *no clue* what they were for. Unbelievable... Having a degree in physics, I'm a strong believer in a university education, but I believe it's better to go for solid high end courses, rather than vocational, so for photography, I would guess that physics with optics or an arts course would be of more value in the long term than an out and out photography course. And in parallel, get a good portfolio together.


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## Grum (Feb 18, 2012)

Just registered here after seeing this thread on the homepage. There's some really great advice and discussion in this thread. 

It sounds like perhaps the course you are on isn't ideal for you, but if you ain't to succeed in a very competitive business YOU need to go out there and make it happen. The best course in the world isnt going to automatically make you a successful cinematographer or photographer. If you want to make films, buy a 550D and a load of old MF lenses if you don't have much money - then just go out there and do it. 

If you are interested in gig photography, go and photograph some gigs - no you won't immediately be able to shoot for magazines, but start small and try and work up to it. If your stuff is good enough and you have enough drive you will get noticed. 

Being honest with yourself for a moment, is your stuff good enough to shoot for Vogue, Q, etc etc? Are you REALLY passionate enough about all this stuff? Sorry to be harsh but you just sound a bit like you are expecting things to be handed to you on a plate.


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## awinphoto (Feb 18, 2012)

BillyBean said:


> There's been a lot of debate in the national press in the UK recently about the value of some school qualifications (GCSEs - taken at 16 after 2-3 years study). I have to say that my view of the photography GCSE qualification is that it's not worth the paper it's printed on. A friend of mine asked me to spend some time with her daughter recently, who has just completed her photography GCSE (and passed with flying colours). Whilst she could take decent pictures and had a good eye, technically she didn't understand even the most basic things - for example, she was fascinated with my collection of lens hoods - she had *no clue* what they were for. Unbelievable... Having a degree in physics, I'm a strong believer in a university education, but I believe it's better to go for solid high end courses, rather than vocational, so for photography, I would guess that physics with optics or an arts course would be of more value in the long term than an out and out photography course. And in parallel, get a good portfolio together.



No offense but at 16, that's like a sophomore/junior in high school here in the usa. When I was in high school I took photography classes because it was an elective and an easy A for me and it wasn't until my senior year 18 years old, that I decided to really studying photography and worked and went to college to study. Comparing a teenagers education to a universities education is foolish. There's been a lot of talk that there's no substitute for actual work experience and while I cannot speak for other schools, my school had an insurance policy on all their students, put us in the community taking pictures. The architecture class had a list of people wanting their houses/business photographed. Portrait/fashion had multiple model books of every type to model you can want. Not to mention open and free studios, lighting, hot lights, strobes, every lens to every camera you could need. Basically they put you in the working world, gave you direction, provided all the tools needed to succeed, and saturated you not only in technical knowledge but real life experience. I'd say if your school doesn't, didn't do that for you, then you went to the wrong school.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 18, 2012)

If it is a serious photojournalism program it might help a bit in that you can get some experience setting up strobes and studio stuff in addition to regular photography and IF they say happen to be able to give you access to shooting top level sports from the sideline and a way to build contacts with those in the business and make your name recognizable to others who are in the business and have been through the program before. 

But you don't really need to be part of a PJ program and get a degree in that IMO and can get 85% of that without being so. And considering the shaky, shaky market for that sort of stuff I think you might be much, much better off NOT going for a PJ/photo degree, at best I'd have that be a second major or minor, but it doesn't even need to be that.

I'd go to school for a non-PJ/photo degree, although in your case preferably one that has a major PJ program (even if you will not be a part of it) and/or at least a major student newspaper (if it has a major PJ program it will almost surely have this, although it might have it regardless) and just take a lighting class or two on the side and then work for the student newspaper. If you get lots of experience doing regular PJ work for them and also get to go shoot some major sporting events for them it might give you a big up on your CV to be able to list all that experience and the sorts of events that most people your age won't have been able to get access to.

(Sometimes things can be a bit insular and if you are not part of the PJ program the clicks and stuff might make it a bit tougher and things not always right or fair, if you are unlucky, but you should be able to easily get enough access and experience to make a difference anyway so it doesn't really matter, ultimately a minor point, which may have no relevance to you anyway, but just be prepared just in case and try to take it as real life experience.)

And those special for profit trade schools that cost as much money or more than top private regular universities I think are probably not so wise at all, in particular.

Anyway I'd tend to suggest going for a non-photo degree and doing your best at that and then just taking a few photo/PJ classes on the side and putting as much time as you can to working for school paper or interning at some local paper if you can. I think you'd have a nice backup plan then, which you very well may need in the current photo market and yet still get the experience and stuff to put on your resume. I could be wrong of course.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Feb 18, 2012)

forgetmenot said:


> business sense... the last one is what most people ignore..



Yeah if you don't go into PJ-type stuff then the last part is important, business sense, how to market yourself, be a real salesman, put yourself out there, the right sort of drive to handle that side of it might be 75% of it. Lots of great photographers don't have that sort of personality naturally and it might take them a lot longer to get going.



> 1 invest ( time - learning , equipment - not too fancy, but get what you need to get job done )
> 2 do 1-3 extremely cheap wedding to build up your portfolio. ( my first wedding job was a freebies to the couple ) next three wedding were a really cheap wedding, still to build up portfolio.
> 3. once you have enough portfolio your status will change from amateur to semi pro or pro where people are confident by looking at your portfolio then you can upgrade your pricing.
> 4 have a good: attitude, quality portfolio, do lots of marketing.
> ...



sounds like good advice


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 19, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> If it is a serious photojournalism program it might help a bit in that you can get some experience setting up strobes and studio stuff in addition to regular photography and IF they say happen to be able to give you access to shooting top level sports from the sideline and a way to build contacts with those in the business and make your name recognizable to others who are in the business and have been through the program before.


This isn't a PJ course, we actually don't study PJ at all. I think it's more so learning about working in a studio environment and the history/theory of photography. We might touch a tiny bit on PJ. I've done 6hr PJ before, I didn't really learn much/anything useful, just stuff that I already knew and was common sense stuff.



dilbert said:


> Getting a piece of paper to say that you've studied photography is about more than just what you learn in class.
> 
> You won't understand that until you've got it.
> 
> ...


Yeah I get it's a filter for employers. But in the long run what's more important? A piece of paper of a really good folio?

I'm asking photography studios if they're thinking of hiring anyone so I can get first hand experience of actually working in a studio. That's what I wanted all along; to work in a photography studio so then I could deduce whether I should spend thousands of $$$$ x10 to go to school and study it. Now it's reversed I'm studying just so I can get ha piece of paper so I can work in a studio


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## scottsdaleriots (Feb 27, 2012)

Well I got word today that they've given me an offer to study a course to get into the film degree course i want (it's hard to explain how it works). it's more expensive than my photography course right now! it's gonna be over $15,000. _Yes, over $15,000_ to get into the film degree i want.

the orientation is tomorrow (and the rest of this week) but i have classes everyday, so i'm gonna have to skip class to get to this orienattaioin/enrolment thing. now i dont even know if it's worth it getting into this pathway to study a film degree. F&#king expensive blatant rip off! that's what it is!


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## CanineCandidsByL (Feb 29, 2012)

Wow...lots of replies, too many to read through. Unfortunately, you shouldn't accept a reply as especially usefull unless a person has done it. I haven't studied photography in school, but if I tell you it isn't useful, I'm not a valid person to say it. Even if someone did study it and they say its useless, you have to know if they really put their heart into it.

All that said, I think those who studied art in general with some specialties in photography have the best overall background. I think colleges provided the best formal way of studing history of anything, but as my engineering professor said, aproximately, "Anything we teach you is 4 to 8 years behind the state of the art and will be another 4 years older when you graduate. If you want to keep up with the current state of anything, you also need to immerse yourself in the weekly/monthly publications, and you need to be involved to some degree in research."

While I don't think photography is that far behind at some colleges, others are even further behind, so you have to choose schools and professors carefully. Some teach the old stuff because thats all they know...and thats not good. Then some teach the old out of respect, and thats better but not great. Finally those that teach the old to help you understand the new, which they concentrate on....thats where you want to be. But don't forget that people who painted, understood composition and lighting in a way few photographers ever will. You can't invest days, weeks, months, and sometimes years into an image, and not be very aware.

Good luck!


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## Daniel Flather (Feb 29, 2012)

All you need is a decent portfolio and a really, really nice website. It's all marketing, people. If you look good, you must be good, right?


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## scottsdaleriots (Mar 5, 2012)

Daniel Flather said:


> All you need is a decent portfolio and a really, really nice website. It's all marketing, people. If you look good, you must be good, right?


I wish it was that simple. I want to work in a studio (one of those franchise things) and get a taste, but everyone asks for a piece of paper and "are you qualified?" even though it's not necessary. It's stupid. I bet no one who is a papparazzi went to school to stidy photography, yet they get paid thousands of dollars for just one photo. It's a disgrace IMO.


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## expatinasia (Mar 5, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> I wish it was that simple. I want to work in a studio (one of those franchise things) and get a taste, but everyone asks for a piece of paper and "are you qualified?" even though it's not necessary. It's stupid. I bet no one who is a papparazzi went to school to stidy photography, yet they get paid thousands of dollars for just one photo. It's a disgrace IMO.



Of course they will ask you if you are qualified. You must remember how many applications these guys get per day! You need to demonstrate to them that you bring something new, better, unique etc to the table. You must show them why you are different from the rest and why they should pay you any attention. They are a business, and are always looking at bottom line in addition to current employee morale etc.

I would say school can be a great way to learn photography, but so is the real world. 

Even the pros here on this forum are still learning from other pros. I see it all the time at events, press conferences etc, we are all sharing tips and ideas among our friends and even those we do not know online. 

Good luck, and don't give up.

Oh and as for the papparazzi, do not forget they can go for weeks without any good shot or pay. Swings and roundabouts my friend.


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## scottsdaleriots (Mar 5, 2012)

expatinasia said:


> Of course they will ask you if you are qualified. You must remember how many applications these guys get per day! You need to demonstrate to them that you bring something new, better, unique etc to the table. You must show them why you are different from the rest and why they should pay you any attention. They are a business, and are always looking at bottom line in addition to current employee morale etc.
> 
> I would say school can be a great way to learn photography, but so is the real world.
> 
> Even the pros here on this forum are still learning from other pros. I see it all the time at events, press conferences etc, we are all sharing tips and ideas among our friends and even those we do not know online.


Yeah but why is it so frowned upon to 'learn as you go'? WHat would be so wrong sbout that, learning on the job each day? Do you think it's too much liability/responsibility/effort & time, etc?

Do you think it's better to start your own photography business and skip the schooling? I mean, at least half of the stuff you can learn online and from real world experience, one way or another isn't it??

You (and everyone else) should comment in my other thread 
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,3984.0.html


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## noodle_snacks (Mar 5, 2012)

Why just look at this from a job perspective? It is natural to overestimate one's skills and knowledge. I think that *really* studying photography could be worth it if only one learns how much one has to learn.


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## scottkinfw (Mar 5, 2012)

Here comes the flames, I can feel the heat, but.....

You sound very young, and it appears that you want to take the easy and cheap way out. That may or may not be the best way for you, I don't know. I think you have had wonderful advice, and it is time to fish or cut bait.

So, go do something, and get back to us, say every 6 months, let us know how you are doing. We will enjoy watching you grow up. Really, it is tough to make these transitions, but you can do it.

I have one other consideration for you. Why don't you look into the military? They need photographers as well as videographers, filmographers (?). Not only that, they will train you and pay you? After it is over, and if you don't like it, hey, they will likely pay you to go to college to do something else. You may also decide to go to film school on their dime.

So what do you say, time to move on to another topic?

I am ready to get flamed. 



awinphoto said:


> BillyBean said:
> 
> 
> > There's been a lot of debate in the national press in the UK recently about the value of some school qualifications (GCSEs - taken at 16 after 2-3 years study). I have to say that my view of the photography GCSE qualification is that it's not worth the paper it's printed on. A friend of mine asked me to spend some time with her daughter recently, who has just completed her photography GCSE (and passed with flying colours). Whilst she could take decent pictures and had a good eye, technically she didn't understand even the most basic things - for example, she was fascinated with my collection of lens hoods - she had *no clue* what they were for. Unbelievable... Having a degree in physics, I'm a strong believer in a university education, but I believe it's better to go for solid high end courses, rather than vocational, so for photography, I would guess that physics with optics or an arts course would be of more value in the long term than an out and out photography course. And in parallel, get a good portfolio together.
> ...


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## scottsdaleriots (Mar 6, 2012)

^ you're the second person I can recall here telling me I should enlist in the army. Its not for me, don't think I have what it takes.

Would it be better to work in a photography studio than spend 2-3 yrs studying it at school?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 6, 2012)

As a retired engineering manager, my company had strict requirements for new employees. 

Obviously, they were not trained in school for the specific job we were goiing to give tham, but... they had demonstrated that they were intelligent enough to pass the tests, they knew how to find information they needed and to apply it to solve problems, and most importantly, they proved that they could stick with the program and see it thru, even if the going got tough. Someone who worked their way thru school was even more valuable in that respect.

So, a diploma from a reputable institution is a valuable asset and will open doors. The individual then has to do his part and perform up to expectations. Arts is a bit different from technical work, because creative ability and imagination are very valuable, but working for a employer, they still expect you to follow orders and to do a job as they want it done. That does rub a bit on the more creative individuals who want to do it their own way.


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## agierke (Mar 6, 2012)

i am a university instructor at a major university on the east coast in the US as well as a working professional and i have to say i am greatly concerned about current tuition costs for a BFA relative to the current job market.

the students at my university pay roughly 45k a year. we are a highly regarded institution but i cant get past the fact that these current students will have invested 180,000.00 in an education where they will struggle to find employment in excess of 20-30k a year for several years to come.

i also attended the same university that i now teach at and i remember we were often told that roughly 1 in 10 of the student body will still be working in photography 5 years after graduation. in my experience this estimation held true, but not because the 10% were talented but rather because they were persistent, determined and sacrificed to be able to survive in the world of commercial photography. many more talented individuals didn't make it simply because they couldnt handle the stresses and uncertainty that this lifestyle puts on you.

additionally, i advise all my students that their real education in photography begins the day after graduation. there is not nearly enough time over the course of 4 years to prepare a student for the rigors of owning a successful photography business nor does the platform of a university provide the proper environment to truly experience what it means/takes to be a financially successful creative person. it simply is just something you have live through to be able to truly learn it.

my best advice i can offer to any student wishing to have a creative career is be prepared to eat breath and sleep your chosen profession....7 days a week year round. if you are passionate about the medium you have chosen all things will work out on the end. those that succeed chose this lifestyle because they NEEDED to and not necessarily because they WANTED to. from my first day of art school to today, i was/am constantly thinking about my art, craft, and business whether i want to or not. if my mind goes idle it idles on photography. this is what passionate means and understand that there are countless people out there in all creative professions that you will be in competition with who feel the same level of fervor. they will work insane hours as long as it takes them to achieve whatever level of success they need to fulfill themselves.

so the bottom line is no one can tell you if this particular education is worthwhile to your particular experience. it boils down to asking yourself what you really want to do and then doing everything you are capable of to make it happen. 

find something you LOVE to do....the rest will take care of itself.


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## scottsdaleriots (Mar 6, 2012)

^ Appreciate your (and everyone else's) input. Persistence is key. Photography is a pretty cut-throat industry wouldn't anyone agree? You can either 'make it' or 'break'.

I'm thinking of dropping a few units, I'm not interested in them such as learning the history of photography and using 35mm (no one [there's like 60+ of us in that lecture class] understands the teacher or what he is trying to convey through the many lengthy dvd videos and powerpoints he's shown us).

i'm also enrolled in a bachelor of media and communicatfion course which i've yet attended of the lectures since i've been going to my regular classes at this institution. The BA in media & comm. has photography as a major about that's it.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 6, 2012)

agierke said:


> my best advice i can offer to any student wishing to have a creative career is be prepared to eat breath and sleep your chosen profession....7 days a week year round. if you are passionate about the medium you have chosen all things will work out on the end. those that succeed chose this lifestyle because they NEEDED to and not necessarily because they WANTED to. from my first day of art school to today, i was/am constantly thinking about my art, craft, and business whether i want to or not. if my mind goes idle it idles on photography. this is what passionate means and understand that there are countless people out there in all creative professions that you will be in competition with who feel the same level of fervor. they will work insane hours as long as it takes them to achieve whatever level of success they need to fulfill themselves.
> 
> so the bottom line is no one can tell you if this particular education is worthwhile to your particular experience. it boils down to asking yourself what you really want to do and then doing everything you are capable of to make it happen.
> 
> find something you LOVE to do....the rest will take care of itself.



+1

Well said, and it goes for any profession, persistence and hard work pays off.


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## CandiColoredPixels (Mar 7, 2012)

I think it all depends on the person and what they want to do in their life. Yes, it's true you can do a lot of works without having to go to college and get a degree. But in general, if you want to shoot for magazines, the AP, The New York Times and other fantastic career paths, they would like to see your degree as well as your work.

I'm a college student and I love it. Yeah, it's not going to be fun in a few years when the loans papers coming rolling in, but in the end I think it will be well worth it. You learn a lot in college, not only from the instructors but from fellow classmates as well. You regularly have critiques where everyone has something to say on everyone's work, which you gain a lot out of. What works, what doesn't, what to work on, etc etc.

That's just my personal opinion though.


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## iso79 (Mar 7, 2012)

agierke said:


> my best advice i can offer to any student wishing to have a creative career is be prepared to eat breath and sleep your chosen profession....7 days a week year round. if you are passionate about the medium you have chosen all things will work out on the end. those that succeed chose this lifestyle because they NEEDED to and not necessarily because they WANTED to. from my first day of art school to today, i was/am constantly thinking about my art, craft, and business whether i want to or not. if my mind goes idle it idles on photography. this is what passionate means and understand that there are countless people out there in all creative professions that you will be in competition with who feel the same level of fervor. they will work insane hours as long as it takes them to achieve whatever level of success they need to fulfill themselves.
> 
> so the bottom line is no one can tell you if this particular education is worthwhile to your particular experience. it boils down to asking yourself what you really want to do and then doing everything you are capable of to make it happen.
> 
> find something you LOVE to do....the rest will take care of itself.




Another thing students should do is to learn other skills to compliment your photography. In today's world you have to be multi-talented to survive. Also network like crazy. Networking is another thing they don't really teach you in college. Surround yourself with awesome talented people. Reach out to professionals you admire etc..


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## unfocused (Mar 7, 2012)

> But in general, if you want to shoot for...the AP...and other fantastic career paths...



ha! Obviously you don't know too many AP photographers! 

Seriously though, your enthusiasm and attitude are great and you have a good handle on what it takes. Just suggesting that the AP is not exactly a promising career path these days. Actually, all photojournalism in general is a pretty dismal career path. Keep in mind that for every photographer you see on the sidelines at a major sporting event, there are several hundred underpaid souls plugging away on small and mid-market newspapers just praying to avoid the next round of layoffs.


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## awinphoto (Mar 7, 2012)

Just a little thought from someone who has been in your shoes... When I was at school... there were a lot of kids who loved photography and then there were others who kinda had the wrong attitude... They didn't like the cost of tuition, thought it was a waste of their time and thought they were above it... they washed out pretty quickly... And while I dont know if they succeeded chasing their dreams or if they are working at blockbuster, or was working at blockbuster, in hindsight I wish I could go back and work harder, built an even better portfolio, while I had all that gear, resources, and studios available to me for free! It's easy to take for granted what you have now and want to look forward til you're out of school, but like agierke said, IF this is what you love, IF this is what you want to do for the remainder of your days, work at it... Stop worrying about commute time, stop worrying that you are wasting hours in class, go in with an open mind and if need be, ask questions and push forward the class so you can get the most out of your time while you got it. By all means, if a perfect situation pops up where you can drop out and do what you want to do, then do it, but until then learn everything you can, shoot everything you can, work with as many cameras, lenses, strobes, backgrounds, build your portfolio, use what you learn and break all the rules and do what you need to do in order to advance your photography. Just because you may be shooting for an assignment doesn't mean you also cant be shooting for you, shooting for your portfolio... And if you are able to do that, then in hindsight you wont look back at your experience with regret but accomplishment.


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## jspiteri (Mar 7, 2012)

Think about what you really love and want to be doing then find out what it takes to get there.

I've always fancied National Geographic myself:

National Geographic photographers have college degrees in a variety of disciplines. Most did not major in photography, but all took photo courses. The most common majors have been journalism, anthropology, sociology or psychology, fine arts, and sciences. *Our editors and photographers agree that it is important to complete a degree in a discipline other than photography*. Freelancers usually come to us with at least five years of photojournalism experience or with specializations such as wildlife, underwater, nature, or aerial photography. We seek balance and an eclectic blend of interests, abilities, and photographic styles in the freelancers we hire.


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## agierke (Mar 11, 2012)

some really great points being brought up....

one of the best aspects of going to art school were the critiques. it is invaluable to have that type of forum to discuss your work and others and it is something that is very difficult to replace/replicate outside of school at the same level.

also, complaining about anything is generally a waste of time and doesn't get you anywhere. very early on in my education, i took the stance that EVERYTHING i got involved with would bring me experience and thus would be furthering my goals towards being a photographer. i even started viewing working part time in mall retail as experience that would directly benefit my career in photography... and it has. you have to change your mindset to turn negatives into positives! i remember many of my fellow students would complain that they didn't want to do something that they didnt feel was directly related to photography....and now i dont hear much of anything from them anymore. the attitude i see most commonly associated with the successful people i run into is that they are open to anything, get involved with many things, and are very rarely negative.

more nuggets of advice....

even a bad experience can yield a positive result. learning how to manage long days is a great benefit! you are doing that now and it will pay off!!! doing something well when you are not completely enthusiastic about it is a great trait. trust me....to be a successful professional you will have to do alot of things you dont necessarily want to do. getting a broad experience a in a variety of subject matter will only strengthen your ability to connect and relate to many more different individuals. the more people you can get to respond to you the more opportunity you will find! that history class you dont care for so much....it will pay off sometime down the line when you least expect it to!

its always better to try to find reasons why something is beneficial rather than to always look at why something is a waste of your time!


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## scottsdaleriots (Mar 12, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> Just a little thought from someone who has been in your shoes... When I was at school... there were a lot of kids who loved photography and then there were others who kinda had the wrong attitude... They didn't like the cost of tuition, thought it was a waste of their time and thought they were above it... they washed out pretty quickly... And while I dont know if they succeeded chasing their dreams or if they are working at blockbuster, or was working at blockbuster, in hindsight I wish I could go back and work harder, built an even better portfolio, while I had all that gear, resources, and studios available to me for free! It's easy to take for granted what you have now and want to look forward til you're out of school, but like agierke said, IF this is what you love, IF this is what you want to do for the remainder of your days, work at it... Stop worrying about commute time, stop worrying that you are wasting hours in class, go in with an open mind and if need be, ask questions and push forward the class so you can get the most out of your time while you got it. By all means, if a perfect situation pops up where you can drop out and do what you want to do, then do it, but until then learn everything you can, shoot everything you can, work with as many cameras, lenses, strobes, backgrounds, build your portfolio, use what you learn and break all the rules and do what you need to do in order to advance your photography. Just because you may be shooting for an assignment doesn't mean you also cant be shooting for you, shooting for your portfolio... And if you are able to do that, then in hindsight you wont look back at your experience with regret but accomplishment.


I 'worry' about those things you mention coz i'm not 110% fully committed let alone 50% committed. I am enrolled else where which is almost $16,000 a year and if I dont withdraw soon I'll have to foot the bill. Not committed coz I have found out i dont need a photography qualification/degree/whatever to do what i want to do (which is work in the film industry). I have literally spent the last 2yrs spending thousands of $$$$ doing all thses photography short courses to work towards into getting into this course only to find out it's not 100% necessary. In that timeframe I could've completed a differengt qualification and currently be working in my desired industry. Of course that's a load of 'what if's' and 'should have's'.

I have been told by the teacher (who sorta mentioned it to the entire class) that to work as a assistant to a photographer you dont necessarily need a piece of paper which completely contradicts what all the studios that i have applied/inquired at for a position there, have said. They all ask 'where is your qualification?'. It's frustrating.



iso79 said:


> agierke said:
> 
> 
> > my best advice i can offer to any student wishing to have a creative career is be prepared to eat breath and sleep your chosen profession....7 days a week year round. if you are passionate about the medium you have chosen all things will work out on the end. those that succeed chose this lifestyle because they NEEDED to and not necessarily because they WANTED to. from my first day of art school to today, i was/am constantly thinking about my art, craft, and business whether i want to or not. if my mind goes idle it idles on photography. this is what passionate means and understand that there are countless people out there in all creative professions that you will be in competition with who feel the same level of fervor. they will work insane hours as long as it takes them to achieve whatever level of success they need to fulfill themselves.
> ...


Kind of hard when the three main photographers I admire, respect and am inspired by are american and i live no where near them lol. But yeah, I know what you mean. I cant really find any good aussie photogs who i admire and want to get in contact with.


I have 2 weeks where i can still withdraw without suffering financial penalities. *Here's another question: If I do withdraw and skip any more photography education, start up my own photography business. How much would/should I charge? I know people say to do a couple freebies for weddings, work up your folio, etc. But one of my lecturers said that we shouldn't do freebies anymore and charge at least $30-$50 an hour. I want constant work and a source of income. * Yes it's taking the 'easy' way wanting to get rich asap but this isn't the industry(photography) i want to work in forever, as a career. This is a pretty damn expensive course, i no longer have a job (had to quit coz boss/manager didnt like how many hrs i was at uni for and he wouldnt give me more than one 3hr shift a week as a casual, i worked PT before this course) so i dont have money.


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## awinphoto (Mar 12, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Just a little thought from someone who has been in your shoes... When I was at school... there were a lot of kids who loved photography and then there were others who kinda had the wrong attitude... They didn't like the cost of tuition, thought it was a waste of their time and thought they were above it... they washed out pretty quickly... And while I dont know if they succeeded chasing their dreams or if they are working at blockbuster, or was working at blockbuster, in hindsight I wish I could go back and work harder, built an even better portfolio, while I had all that gear, resources, and studios available to me for free! It's easy to take for granted what you have now and want to look forward til you're out of school, but like agierke said, IF this is what you love, IF this is what you want to do for the remainder of your days, work at it... Stop worrying about commute time, stop worrying that you are wasting hours in class, go in with an open mind and if need be, ask questions and push forward the class so you can get the most out of your time while you got it. By all means, if a perfect situation pops up where you can drop out and do what you want to do, then do it, but until then learn everything you can, shoot everything you can, work with as many cameras, lenses, strobes, backgrounds, build your portfolio, use what you learn and break all the rules and do what you need to do in order to advance your photography. Just because you may be shooting for an assignment doesn't mean you also cant be shooting for you, shooting for your portfolio... And if you are able to do that, then in hindsight you wont look back at your experience with regret but accomplishment.
> ...



You dont need a certificate to work for yourself... You really dont need a certificate to work for someone else, but as you have found out, if they want one and you dont have one, it can severely hinder your hiring process. In that regards it's fully up to the market and the market demands... Some places may be more strict than others... Make sure your portfolio is good enough to show customers and get ready for harsh critiques at times.

If you feel that you have all the nuts and bolts down... you got a firm understanding on exposure, lighting, filling, shading, etc... if you feel that your ready to dive head first into the photography business, then by all means, but treat it as it is, a business... I'd see if you can enroll in a cheap local community college class on business management/marketing/etc... Those will be vital in understanding how to be profitable with your business. I cannot stress this enough... That would be the difference between being a successful business and a "starving artist". 

I would not recommend low balling and doing freebes anywhere anytime... Your work is valued based upon the perceived value of your work. And this also boils down to your professionalism with how you act around your prospective clients, and on your work... If you do freebes people kinda think in the back of their minds that you are cheap and basically not to expect much... You can totally blow them away with your work, but in their minds that work is still linked with the low value of "free". That not only hurts the industry, it hurts your reputation and hurts your works perceived value to others. I would look around and talk to people... look at flyers, and get a good idea on what your market in your area is charging... Dont get 1 price range, get as many as you can... If you want to lowball a little bit at that time until you really build your portfolio, by all means, but dont cut your nose off to spite your face. Sit down, figure out what you need to live off of, figure out what YOUR cost of doing business is... Figure out how much money you need in order JUST to break even after rent/mortgage, utilities expenses, equipment maintenance/repairs, advertising, marketing, etc... That will be a good place to start from when it comes down to pricing.


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## CandiColoredPixels (Mar 14, 2012)

unfocused said:


> > But in general, if you want to shoot for...the AP...and other fantastic career paths...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do bring up good points. I agree that the AP probably isn't a very promising gig. As I also agree with a lot of people being underpaid and awaiting layoffs. It's sad, but very accurate.


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## scottsdaleriots (Mar 16, 2012)

I think I will drop at least two units this semester, too much work and I'm not even interested in half of the units I have to do. Ah, why is photography such a difficult, with "struggling artists" everywhere and 'cut-throat' industry. Very time consuming.


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## CanineCandidsByL (Mar 16, 2012)

I'd like to throw another option at you....forget photography/art school in favor of business school. If you want to start your own business, getting a background in business will probably favor you. Photography is fairly cheap to practice, but business can be very expensive.


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## awinphoto (Mar 16, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> I think I will drop at least two units this semester, too much work and I'm not even interested in half of the units I have to do. Ah, why is photography such a difficult, with "struggling artists" everywhere and 'cut-throat' industry. Very time consuming.



The same can be said with most of the industries out there... ambulance chasing lawyers, accountants/CPA's, mechanics, engineers, Dr's, nurses, custodians, teachers... Especially when the world economy is still struggling not to mention local economies, There are a lot of unemployed people out there in thousands of different industries and specialties... Photography is just one of them... It is what it is. Especially right now, there's always someone out there who can do your job and accept less than you because they have less than you...


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## scottsdaleriots (Mar 18, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> The same can be said with most of the industries out there... ambulance chasing lawyers, accountants/CPA's, mechanics, engineers, Dr's, nurses, custodians, teachers... Especially when the world economy is still struggling not to mention local economies, There are a lot of unemployed people out there in thousands of different industries and specialties... Photography is just one of them... It is what it is. Especially right now, there's always someone out there who can do your job and accept less than you because they have less than you...


I know that there are occupations out are is just as difficult as the photography industry - but say if you study to become a lawyer you're a lawyer, you can't really branch (much) out somewhere else in the law/criminal industry whereas as a photographer you've got so many types/genres to dabble in. I think photography, as a career choice, is a lot more expensive than a lawyer; you'd just need legal books, etc. but a pro photographer needs a lot of equipment and then some (as depends if ur a studio/wedding photog or a landscape, portraits, etc photographer). Anyways my knowledge isn't very broad when it comes to the lawyers/other career choices. 


You can learn outputting and the 'process' of printing and choosing the correct paper from the Internet, can't you? That kind of knowledge only really applies to portraiture/wedding, landscape photographers, yeah? I mean it'd be useful knowledge if you weren't shooting those areas. It not 100% absolutely necessary?


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## PeterJ (Mar 18, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> I think photography, as a career choice, is a lot more expensive than a lawyer; you'd just need legal books, etc. but a pro photographer needs a lot of equipment and then some (as depends if ur a studio/wedding photog or a landscape, portraits, etc photographer). Anyways my knowledge isn't very broad when it comes to the lawyers/other career choices.


I'm neither a professional photographer, nor a lawyer, but one difference with a lot of professions is their legal status and requirement for a degree to become a member of a legally recognised fraternity. For example if I see an advertisement that says "Speeding tickets defended in court for only $200" and follow it up with "Speeding tickets defended in court for only $100" when I'm not qualified to give legal representation then I'd likely be the one in need of legal representation.

Same doesn't apply for photography, anyone with a camera can offer their services and while the more discerning clients will check background let's face it a lot will prefer free / cheap.


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## agierke (Mar 18, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > The same can be said with most of the industries out there... ambulance chasing lawyers, accountants/CPA's, mechanics, engineers, Dr's, nurses, custodians, teachers... Especially when the world economy is still struggling not to mention local economies, There are a lot of unemployed people out there in thousands of different industries and specialties... Photography is just one of them... It is what it is. Especially right now, there's always someone out there who can do your job and accept less than you because they have less than you...
> ...



ooo....you got some faulty logic there my friend.

being in photography has afforded me the opportunity to get a glimpse into alot of different businesses and how they work. one thing i have learned across the board is that no matter what business you are in it will be expensive to run that business. there are hidden costs in running any business that the general public just isnt aware of...its called overhead and must be covered by the fees that business charges. thats why "professional" services are generally so expensive regardless of the business type. the only way to lower fees is to incorporate an economy of scale. some businesses have the benefit of accessing economies of scale...others dont (such as photography and lawyers). start up costs are always going to seem huge no matter what business you choose to run.

there are also specializations within any profession. photography is not unique in that manner. ever try to get your car fixed? it is almost impossible to find a mechanic that can work on every aspect of a every type of car out there at a competent level and cheap. i go to one place for body work, another for transmission work, and yet another for engine work. if i want it done cheaply i have a set of garages that i will go to but i run the risk that it may not be done properly. if i know the problem needs to be fixed properly the first time and without hassles i cave and take it to the dealership and pay much higher rates. thats just the way the world works and all types of business' are like this.

also, just because you graduate and get your piece of paper does not mean you get a job. my sister is a lawyer and we know alot of people who went to law school, graduated, and then couldn't get a job. earning a degree guarantees nothing except that you will be in debt. thats it.

finally, yes there is alot of information about alot of things on the internet. reading a blog or watching a video does not necessarily mean you know something to the level that you can put it into practice reliably however. the only true way of learning something is to do it and then do it alot over and over again. additionally, its folly to assume that you don't need to know about a certain process just because you dont foresee yourself doing it yourself. i don't output much anymore but i am better at being a photographer because i spent alot of time working on and understanding color profiling different devices and outputting on a variety of paper types. not to mention before digital, working in a lab and developing on c-41, E-6 and RA-4 machines as well as working with color enlargers. pretty much anything you can learn will benefit you in someway at some point. if you pass on the opportunity to learn something...well thats just one less tool you will have in your belt.

the bottom line is if you want to have a successful business of your own it will require a ton of start up costs, an enormous amount of your time, and continual education whether it come from taking classes, self study, or on the job training. if you just want to work for someone else be prepared that you will get paid less and it will still take a ton of time and alot of continual education....just not as much as when you own your own business.

sry if this bursts your bubble. everything that is worth doing is hard, takes alot of time, and generally will cost lots of money.


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## awinphoto (Mar 19, 2012)

agierke is correct that there are lots of startup and overhead in just about any business. Whether it is purchasing inventory, business licenses, state taxes if applicable, securing an office whether it is a home office or commercial. Getting supplies to do ones goods or service, uniforms if needed or appropriate wardrobe, an accountant or money management system and billing. Lawyers with the REQUIRED schooling, there's no getting around that, the post grad schooling, licensing and tests, plus industry bonds and insurance to protect from malpractice... All this stuff could make ones photography degree tuition look like chump change. Heck, even music bands, take into account costs to record music, promo, guitars, drums, amps, control board, could get into the tens of thousands if not more. Plus, in any industry, the better you get, more business you bring in, the more overhead, better gear, more insurance, bigger office, etc... You see where I'm getting at. 

Also agierke is also correct a degree doesn't guarantee you anything. It looks great compared to non graduates and some education is better than none, but a C-D student who skated by school won't be better off than a non grad with an excellent work ethic, portfolio, skills and attitude. Also, online education are full of people giving their two cents, opinions, and agenda and many may not be any smarter than you and me. Most online resources I have to read a dozen or so different sites on one topic if nothing else but to filter out which are more right than wrong and which are credible and which smells fishy. that extra work may make it more questionable if it's worth your time than getting the info once from a guy you know actually knows their stuff. You know my POV and recommendation so I won't parrot my prior posts, but if you feel your ready a nd your portfolio has been critiqued by enough people to know if your ready, make sure you take a business management and marketing course cause in the end, that will be vital to ensure your business is successful and not a starving artist.


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## scottsdaleriots (Mar 19, 2012)

let's not stray from the topic and talk about lawyers/criminal area in general coz though i studied it in school that's as far as my knowledge goes (i've forgotten most of it lol).

Im still on the fence on whether i should drop a specific unit even though i have limited interest in it. It more so applies to self employed wedding/portrait photographers i think with the whole process of developing digital files to be ready to print, etc.


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## D.Sim (Mar 19, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > The same can be said with most of the industries out there... ambulance chasing lawyers, accountants/CPA's, mechanics, engineers, Dr's, nurses, custodians, teachers... Especially when the world economy is still struggling not to mention local economies, There are a lot of unemployed people out there in thousands of different industries and specialties... Photography is just one of them... It is what it is. Especially right now, there's always someone out there who can do your job and accept less than you because they have less than you...
> ...



Legal books ain't cheap... and the fact that laws change/are updated often means you need to keep updating your legal library. Same goes for a lot of other professions - Photography as a career choice is hardly more expensive than one of the professional jobs - The study costs itself will cost far more than what your general photographer would need - Unless you were to be one of those nutcases who buys a 600mm to cover weddings ???

Also: Make a mistake with a photo - wrong exposure, etc, it can be fixed/saved... Make a mistake as a Lawyer? Accountant? God forbid, Doctor? 


Agierke really hit the nail on the head... so did awinphoto


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## marginwalker (Mar 19, 2012)

From my experience, no it isn't worth it to go to school to learn photography. I went to one of the Art Institute schools and would have totally felt ripped off if I had had to pay the $80,000 it costs to get the "degree." You can learn this stuff just by going to the library and checking some books out or buying some books on amazon.


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## Lawliet (Mar 19, 2012)

scottsdaleriots said:


> II figure (in my logic) that there's really no point spending thousands of $$$$ and yrs of your life going to uni to studying photography when you can learn a lot off stuff from the internet?



The web can teach you the basics about most topics, for the advanced stuff good books and practice get you quite far. If its a _photography _ school that would be most of the curriculum. If its an _art _ school the focus should be more on a content level instead of the technical execution - thats where inet fails. Also you get the opportunity to network with people aspiring to enter related industries.


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## awinphoto (Mar 19, 2012)

Lawliet said:


> scottsdaleriots said:
> 
> 
> > II figure (in my logic) that there's really no point spending thousands of $$$$ and yrs of your life going to uni to studying photography when you can learn a lot off stuff from the internet?
> ...



If I may offer a suggestion to the OP and any other students in his situation... The one thing I have mentioned several times but the OP has not mentioned once that i'm aware of... PORTFOLIO... This is crucial... Do you have your portfolio online? Can people find you online? Why not post your portfolio whether it be an actual website or facebook or smugmug, etc... Show us what you got so we can best guide you in your pursuits... There have been people suggesting education isn't worth it and he can go to a library or online... mmmmokay... At a college/university, if you shoot an assignment and it doesn't turn out... your camera fails, your lights burn out, etc... you get a bad grade but get to reshoot it... If you shoot a wedding and screw up, you dont get to redo that, and on top of that, you become liable for those images, plus on top of that, you might as well move because your reputation is tarnished... You can shoot freebies, even though I would never recommend that, but your reputation changes and once again, if you screw up, your reputation is that you are incompetent... Trust me you want to have a change to shoot something rather than jumping in the deep end unprepared. 

Secondly, for what it's worth, I had a classmate who was a 3rd assistant for a famous photographer... they were on set and the photographer decided in a split second to add polarizer and some additional filters and without thinking twice, she was able to spout off the exposure compensation (stops less light) by adding those filters... The photographer looked at her and said "your now the first assistant" basically doubling her pay... what's that worth? Having the hands on experience to shoot in any situation, any condition, any camera, any strobe/light/modifier where other photographers would call it a day... what's that worth? I'm not saying that I enjoy paying my monthly student loan payments or that its worth upwards to $100,000 and the years spent doing it. I'm also not saying it's for everyone... some people require structured environments and things in black and white and someone kicking them in the rear and lighting a fire under their butt... some people dont. I'm just saying dont drop out just for the heck of it unless you're 100% sure your ready or you can very easily burn out. Let us see your portfolio.


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## CanineCandidsByL (Mar 23, 2012)

> sry if this bursts your bubble. everything that is worth doing is hard, takes alot of time, and generally will cost lots of money.



....suddenly I feel very depressed


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## agierke (Mar 23, 2012)

awinphoto is correct...in the end portfolio and reputation trump all.

i do not ever regret going to school and getting the education i got. i dont like paying my loans but i dont regret them either. the knowledge, experience, and connections i obtained while i was in school were well worth what i paid in tuition. but that was over 10 years ago....

if i were in the same situation with today's tuition costs i would not be able to get the same education i did just 10 years ago. i was, compared to the rest of my class, very successful in finding work with commercial photographers after i graduated but financially it was very difficult and stressful. it has only been in the last 2 or 3 years that i have been able to acquire much of the pro gear i need and bring in enough money that i actually have some breathing room. 

there is alot of what i learned in school and through assisting that just cannot be learned on the internet or in books. everything i know can be learned through experience though. again, awinphoto accurately points out that school offers the safety of trying and failing without severe consequences. the real world is unforgiving, if you screw up with a client then doors close quickly and permanently. it takes alot of effort to open new doors to financially sustain a career so there are only so many mistakes you can make before your business fails.

unfortunately i have seen far many more of my students and colleagues fail than succeed.


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## unfocused (Mar 23, 2012)

Good comments here. I will just add another thought. 

There is a lot of emphasis here on the technical training, but a good education is also critical for aesthetic training as well. Learning the history of photography, becoming familiar with the work of someone other than Ansel Adams, and having instructors and fellow students discuss and critique your efforts presents opportunities that you may seldom have again once you begin a professional career. 

Although I make my living outside of photography today, I still draw on the lessons I learned back in college every time I take up a camera. Carrying around in my head iconic images from Walker Evans, Robert Frank, Garry Winogrand, Edward Weston, Nathan Lyons, Lee Friedlander and literally hundreds of other incredible photographers helps me every time I look through a viewfinder and compose a shot. 

Most importantly, it reminds me that f-stops, pixel counts, dynamic range and all the other technical matters that get discussed ad infinitum on this and other forums are insignificant if there is no vision.


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## agierke (Mar 23, 2012)

^ very well said.


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