# D850 may pack a hybrid OVF/EVF?!



## ahsanford (Jul 27, 2017)

File under 'highly skeptical':

https://petapixel.com/2017/07/27/nikon-d850-first-dslr-hybrid-viewfinder-rumor-says/

IMHO, there's very little chance they'd wheel this tech out first on a flagship pro rig, I think. Surely they'd prove out tech like this on a less vital product line, like in crop or something, right?

- A


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 27, 2017)

This seems logical, and will likely be in the next generation of Canon cameras, maybe even in the 7D MK III.

I think its pretty natural to put a high end feature like a hybrid viewfinder in a D850. Mirrorless is a big jump for Canon and Nikon, so a hybrid camera that does both is a logical step.


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## BillB (Jul 27, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> This seems logical, and will likely be in the next generation of Canon cameras, maybe even in the 7D MK III.
> 
> I think its pretty natural to put a high end feature like a hybrid viewfinder in a D850. Mirrorless is a big jump for Canon and Nikon, so a hybrid camera that does both is a logical step.



At this point, it seems like a bigger jump for Nikon than it does for Canon. Canon seems to have much more solid base to build on with the M series, dual pixel technology and touchscreen focussing. Does Nikon have any Phase Detect AF experience in Liveview at all? A hybrid viewfinder might well be a bigger challenge than a straight EVF. Maybe Nikon might head in that direction by moving into closer collaboration with Sony, if Sony is willing to spend money on it.


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## ahsanford (Jul 27, 2017)

BillB said:


> Does Nikon have any Phase Detect AF experience in Liveview at all?



There was that whole Nikon 1 thing... :

- A


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## BillB (Jul 27, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > Does Nikon have any Phase Detect AF experience in Liveview at all?
> ...



Well, that was definitely an experience.


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## nda (Jul 28, 2017)

*D850 to feature hybrid evf/ovf?*

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/competition-rumors-nikon-d850-might-first-hybrid-evfovf-dslr/


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## snoke (Jul 28, 2017)

D850 shaping up to be very decent camera! Uncropped 4K (UHD), touchscreen, D5's AF, 45MP (Sony A7R II sensor?). Wow!


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## Khalai (Jul 28, 2017)

snoke said:


> D850 shaping up to be very decent camera! Uncropped 4K (UHD), touchscreen, D5's AF, 45MP (Sony A7R II sensor?). Wow!



<sarcasm>
Outrageous! They are using "old" sensor design from 2015?! How dare they! And old AF system?! Nothing new?! Nikon is *******, ******* I tell ya! We need innovation! Moar innovation! MOAR EVERYTHING!
</sarcasm>


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## GammyKnee (Jul 28, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> *File under 'highly skeptical'*:
> 
> https://petapixel.com/2017/07/27/nikon-d850-first-dslr-hybrid-viewfinder-rumor-says/
> 
> - A



Reading through the comments on that post, it looks like the 850 could also be sporting some very fashionable screw holes on the back of the prism hump 

You know until I looked at that post I never really noticed just how many buttons, switches and levers are on the top end Nikon bodies. I'd get lost with all those different widgets competing for my attention.


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## Mikehit (Jul 28, 2017)

Press the button and an etch-a-sketch screen pops up. If you have been waiting for a subject to appear (bird diving, or an antelope...) you can draw it into the camera and pretend your day's shooting was successful.


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## Mikehit (Jul 28, 2017)

Apparently Nikon will not have a hybrid EVF after all. 


https://nikonrumors.com/


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## ahsanford (Jul 28, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Apparently Nikon will not have a hybrid EVF after all.
> 
> 
> https://nikonrumors.com/



So it's > 8 fps? Hmmm.

I've said this a thousand times, but Canon will regret only stepping the 5D4 up to 7 fps. Since that time, a 6.5 fps 6D2 spec (that no one expected) surfaced, and now we get this D850 news. Let's presume it's accurate for a moment, we'd have:

6D2: 6.5 fps
5D4: 7 fps (I think you can throw the spongey foamy word out here :)
1DX2: 14/16 fps

And Nikon will be:

D750: 6.5 fps
D850: > 8 fps
D5: 12 fps

...which seems a more intuitive tier-ing of speed. Nikon seems awfully fond of a clearly delineated 'good/better/best' in their FF portfolio.

- A


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## Khalai (Jul 28, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently Nikon will not have a hybrid EVF after all.
> ...



Canon uses DR as their differentiator. To piss off forum-dwellers and measurebators alike


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## Sporgon (Jul 28, 2017)

Khalai said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



No ! To make CR much more fun


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## snoke (Jul 28, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> So it's > 8 fps? Hmmm.
> 
> I've said this a thousand times, but Canon will regret only stepping the 5D4 up to 7 fps. Since that time, a 6.5 fps 6D2 spec (that no one expected) surfaced, and now we get this D850 news. Let's presume it's accurate for a moment, we'd have:
> 
> ...



This post funny. Only thing matter is fps. If people obsess about DR are drones, what people who obsess about fps? call them "*f*a*ps*"? (too much fapping!! ;D ;D ) Need work it more.

If want best fps, get Sony A9. Everything is compromise.



Khalai said:


> Canon uses DR as their differentiator. To piss off forum-dwellers and measurebators alike



Khalai get it


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## Mikehit (Jul 28, 2017)

snoke said:


> If want best fps, get Sony A9. Everything is compromise.



so remind me what compromise Sony make if I put a 400mm f4 on the A9.


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## ahsanford (Jul 28, 2017)

snoke said:


> This post funny. Only thing matter is fps.



No, I'm simply saying that for a 'horsepower spec' (MP / FPS / AF points / 4K) that is used by consumers to crudely bucket/rank the value of a camera, Canon didn't exactly paint the 5D4 with glory, that's all. 

It's a cleaner market position if Canon went with:

6D2: 26 MP / 6.5 fps / Good sensor / Good AF

5D4: 30 MP / 7 fps 8-9 fps / Great sensor / Great AF / 4K / Dual Slot

1DX2: 20 MP / 14-16 fps / Great sensor / Great AF / 4K / Dual Slot / Integral Grip / Exclusive 1-Series feature set

But, in fairness, when I made those statements months ago, everyone on this forum expected an on-chip ADC sensor to be in the 6D2 and that (apparently) didn't happen. So perhaps fps-based differentiation with the 6D2 wasn't as vital for the 5D4, because Canon knew the 5D4 would be getting a better sensor.

- A


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## LonelyBoy (Jul 28, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently Nikon will not have a hybrid EVF after all.
> ...



For what it's worth, I agree on that - it would take a _lot_ for them to convince me there was a good reason for it to not get 8 or 9 FPS. That said, it's likely to be my next body and I don't feel constrained by the 6 FPS on my 5D3, but it was the one surprising weak point of the 4 when I read it.


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## ahsanford (Jul 28, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> snoke said:
> 
> 
> > If want best fps, get Sony A9. Everything is compromise.
> ...



Sony's not making a compromise with that combo -- you are. Adapted AF will not be the same as native AF. It's hard to enjoy 20 fps if your AF is whiffing.

Also: electronic shutter is required for 20 fps. To drop down to the (more-proven) mechanical shutter, you're capped at 5 fps.

The A9 is formidable, don't get me wrong, but it has clauses/rules/exception/strings attached like many other cameras.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 28, 2017)

LonelyBoy said:


> For what it's worth, I agree on that - it would take a _lot_ for them to convince me there was a good reason for it to not get 8 or 9 FPS. That said, it's likely to be my next body and I don't feel constrained by the 6 FPS on my 5D3, but it was the one surprising weak point of the 4 when I read it.



I get bent out of shape that the 5D4 has less data throughput than a 5DS, something we typically associate with tripod or studio work. 

But there is an argument that there's an inflection point fps-wise were Canon has to add another DIGIC chip or put in a much beefier shutter/mirrorbox setup, and (who knows) perhaps 8 fps *is* that inflection point.

That said, people won't care about that if a D850 cruises in at (say) 8.5-10 fps at 36 MP+ output. Also, the A99 II shows us that 42 MP x 12 fps data can be moved, right? I don't need the 5D4 to go all balls-to-the-wall like Sony has with the A99 II (keep in mind the mirror is fixed in place with an SLT like that), but Canon seems to have held back in fps with the 5D4, either for cost or 'positioning' reasons. :

- A


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## snoke (Jul 28, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> No, I'm simply saying that for a 'horsepower spec' (MP / FPS / AF points / 4K) that is used by consumers to crudely bucket/rank the value of a camera, Canon didn't exactly paint the 5D4 with glory, that's all.



Why can't DR be horsepower spec too? Who decide that? Horsepower spec list look arbitrary.

Maybe shutter for 8fps or 9fps cost 10x shutter for 7fps or use too much power.


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## ahsanford (Jul 28, 2017)

snoke said:


> Why can't DR be horsepower spec too? Who decide that? Horsepower spec list look arbitrary.
> 
> Maybe shutter for 8fps or 9fps cost 10x shutter for 7fps or use too much power.



It's arbitary -- I personally made up the term some time ago here -- but I don't consider DR a horsepower spec for the following reasons:


The marketeers don't think DR moves units as much as other specs: I've seen dynamic range claims at B&H, Adorama, etc. make the topline 8-10 specs exactly zero times.


_Canon_ doesn't apparently think DR moves units as much as other specs, or the 6D2 surely would have gotten it. Its absence in the 6D2 implies Canon has market data that does not peg DR as a big deal to the market.


The difference between excellence and mediocrity with sensor DR is very small and typically only found from ISO 100-400, hardly a global advantage for all photographers.


This metric doesn't lend itself to a single number you can compare, and even if you did (let's say you reported 13.0 EV at Base ISO DR) the metric is not growing steadily over time like ISO limits, MP count, etc.

Base ISO DR is important, sure -- especially if you live in the studio or on a tripod -- but it doesn't declare 'better' to the market nearly as clearly as +2 fps / +10 MP / addition of 4K / +20 AF points over your prior model.

I think DR is much more the discerning forum-dweller's metric of choice than a true mover of units in the market.

- A


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## weixing (Jul 28, 2017)

Hi,


ahsanford said:


> And Nikon will be:
> 
> D750: 6.5 fps
> D850: > 8 fps
> ...


 Hmmm... so the fps is with or without battery grid?? ???

Have a nice day.


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## Mikehit (Jul 28, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > snoke said:
> ...



I agree. I was responding to snoke's comment that if fps was important buy the A9. 
If I did buy the A9 I would not have the fps I needed.


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## ahsanford (Jul 28, 2017)

weixing said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > And Nikon will be:
> ...



We have no idea. It's purely hearsay from the NR rumor linked above.

- A


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## BillB (Jul 28, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> LonelyBoy said:
> 
> 
> > For what it's worth, I agree on that - it would take a _lot_ for them to convince me there was a good reason for it to not get 8 or 9 FPS. That said, it's likely to be my next body and I don't feel constrained by the 6 FPS on my 5D3, but it was the one surprising weak point of the 4 when I read it.
> ...



IIRC, there was speculation that one of the trade offs with the 5DIV fps was shutter noise. Restricted fps was part of controlling shutter noise, or so some thought.


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## Khalai (Jul 28, 2017)

snoke said:


> If want best fps, get Sony A9. Everything is compromise.



Best fapsing with a bonus of banding under certain lights


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## snoke (Jul 29, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> I agree. I was responding to snoke's comment that if fps was important buy the A9.
> If I did buy the A9 I would not have the fps I needed.



Yes. If no Sony lens for what you need, fps lower.

But you want high fps then Sony paradigm correct - OVF not better here.

If Sony continue A9 development, possible A9 II do photos at video speed (24fps) but that not real.

Look through OVF better but mechanical = speed problems + blackout.

Race for fps crown. Sony need big fast white lens. Canon & Nikon need EVF.

1DX crowd happy with EVF @ 20fps?


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## Jopa (Jul 29, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently Nikon will not have a hybrid EVF after all.
> ...



I think it's unlikely. I'd choose a 9 fps D850 over the D5 monster any day.


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## Mikehit (Jul 30, 2017)

snoke said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > I agree. I was responding to snoke's comment that if fps was important buy the A9.
> ...



No it is not correct. I want 400mm f4 and high shutter speed. 
Do you understand what a 'paradigm' is? 




> Sony need big fast white lens.


Yep



> Canon & Nikon need EVF


Nope.
Why do they 'need' it?




> 1DX crowd happy with EVF @ 20fps?


If I could get it yes. Will it be significantly better than 14fps (16fps in LeveView)? I doubt it. There comes a point of diminishing returns.


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## Sharlin (Jul 30, 2017)

If the max fps of the D850 truly is >8, I wonder if there's some small print involved. Eg. only with a battery grip, or only in DX crop mode.


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## snoke (Jul 30, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> snoke said:
> 
> 
> > > Canon & Nikon need EVF
> ...



Physics. Mirror cannot move so fast.

EVF:
A9: 20fps no blackout = no mirror

OVF:
D5: 14fps with blackout = mirror locked up
1DX Mark II: 14fps with blackout = mirror locked up
1DX: 14fps with blackout = mirror locked up

See pattern?

1DX Mark II: "Silent shooting" max speed: 5fps
A9: "Silent shooting" max speed: 20fps

Mirror = problem for high fps.


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## raptor3x (Jul 30, 2017)

snoke said:


> EVF:
> A9: 20fps no blackout = no mirror
> 
> OVF:
> ...



1DX Mark II is 16 fps with mirror locked up, 14 fps with normal operation.


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## Mikehit (Jul 30, 2017)

snoke said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > snoke said:
> ...



You really do insist on missing the point, don't you. I was questioning why 20fps is significantly better than 14fps or (in Liveview) 16 fps and whether we 'need' that difference.


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## snoke (Jul 30, 2017)

raptor3x said:


> snoke said:
> 
> 
> > EVF:
> ...



I look for this but cannot find. Mirror lock up != live view. Camera manual talk about it?



Mikehit said:


> You really do insist on missing the point, don't you. I was questioning why 20fps is significantly better than 14fps or (in Liveview) 16 fps and whether we 'need' that difference.



20 is 25% better than 16 and 43% better than 14.

If 20 too much, why 14 ok? Why not 10 ok? Where line?

For ahansford, fps core performance metric and always want more.

One thing for sure, more fps = more deleting after.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 30, 2017)

snoke said:


> raptor3x said:
> 
> 
> > snoke said:
> ...



Page 431.


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## snoke (Jul 31, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Page 431.



Thanks! I know someone have it 

Lots of rules too! OMG!



> Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.



I like this. Give me control of sun for perfect photo


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## Talys (Sep 11, 2017)

snoke said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.
> ...



Sadly, there seem to be many people who believe that with better sensors, lighting is optional, and everything else can be fixed in post >.<

Personally, I think they picked up the wrong hobby. For the amount of money they purport to be willing to spend on photography, they could buy a professional rig for 3DSMax.


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