# 600EX-RT Manual Question



## Steven_urwin (Feb 5, 2014)

Hi all,

So I think I have quite a specific need, but can't find a way to make this work. It seems like this should be a no brainer, but can't find a way to make it work.

So, I'm photographing the inside of houses... High Aperture (f8-f11 around there somewhere), trying to collect a little ambient light, to show what is outside the windows (longer shutter speeds, i.e. tripod)

Low(ish) ISO (as I'm tripoded, may as well reduce the excess noise)

So I'm bringing the up the light inside the room with speed lights (600EX-RT's) and I have a wireless remote to fire the camera (I know I can uses the 600's to do this, but it just seems easier this way).

What I would like to be able to do, is walk about with my 600EX-RT in hand, and point it at where I would like to pin point a little extra light. Then set the 600EX-RT that is off camera (in my hand) to manual, and choose my power setting. But it seems that when the flashes are linked, I can only set the power level by adjusting it on flash in the hotshot. However, I would like to be across the room, with flash in hand.

This results in me taking a picture, walking back to the camera, changing the exposure, and then walking back to where I want to hold the flash, to light a specific part of the frame.

Does anyone know if this possible.

I know it's possible if I had a flash with an optical trigger, as then I can just set the flash to whatever power rating I want, and trigger it with the on camera, flash. It's basically this function that I am trying to recreate.

Thanks for reading, and any light you many be able to shed on the matter (sorry, crappy pun totally intended!)

Steve


----------



## gshocked (Feb 5, 2014)

Hi,

How many canon 600ex-rt flashes have you got?
If you only have one 600ex-rt flash then there is not way of you firing your flash wirelessly .
You need to have either two flash units or canon ST-E3-RT transmitter on your dslr, which would then link to you flash.
Alternatively you could get a cheap Youngnuo flash transmitter.

Have a look at this link:

http://youtu.be/c_WUA849Clc


----------



## Zv (Feb 5, 2014)

Let me just get my head around this one. So you have multiple flashes all in manual and you're triggering them via a third party remote trigger on your camera? What kind is it btw? 

Then you want to be able to change the power setting for the off camera flash and fire the shutter remotely using the speedlite or remote control? But it wont let you change the power? That's strange. 

Is it in slave mode? If using wireless triggers you need to keep the speedlite in normal mode i.e not slave mode. This can cause issues off camera. That could explain why you need to put in on the hotshoe to change the power.


----------



## gshocked (Feb 5, 2014)

Zv said:


> Let me just get my head around this one. So you have multiple flashes all in manual and you're triggering them via a third party remote trigger on your camera? What kind is it btw?
> 
> Then you want to be able to change the power setting for the off camera flash and fire the shutter remotely using the speedlite or remote control? But it wont let you change the power? That's strange.
> 
> Is it in slave mode? If using wireless triggers you need to keep the speedlite in normal mode i.e not slave mode. This can cause issues off camera. That could explain why you need to put in on the hotshoe to change the power.



+1 
Great questions. Need more info on your set up.


----------



## spturtle (Feb 5, 2014)

The feature you want to use is apparently a mode called "individual slave" but it is only available when using Canon's older "optical" remote triggering system. Maybe you can use that instead?


----------



## Zv (Feb 5, 2014)

spturtle said:


> The feature you want to use is apparently a mode called "individual slave" but it is only available when using Canon's older "optical" remote triggering system. Maybe you can use that instead?



Not really I think if he has a RC-6 you can trigger the camera to fire and it should fire the flashes along with it. 

What I do is use a Yongnuo YN603 on camera hotshoe with remote shutter cable attached. Then I have another YN603 in my hand that triggers everything. With all Yongnuo speedlites it is simple as pie. No other triggers needed for the YN560III as the trigger is built in.


----------



## RC (Feb 5, 2014)

Steven_urwin said:
 

> What I would like to be able to do, is walk about with my 600EX-RT in hand, and point it at where I would like to pin point a little extra light. Then set the 600EX-RT that is off camera (in my hand) to manual, and choose my power setting. But it seems that when the flashes are linked, I can only set the power level by adjusting it on flash in the hotshot. However, I would like to be across the room, with flash in hand.



Nope this can't be done on a slave unit while it is linked to the master. With radio controlled flash, the master and it's slaves essentially become one system and are controlled by the master. Keep in mind there is two way communication between master and slave when configured as radio. 

When configured as optical, there is only one way communication--a signal being sent from the master. The master has no idea of how many (if any) slaves are out there. Essential the slaves are completely independent and will fire only if it can see a signal from the master. That is why you can adjust the optical slaves right at the slave.

You will need to switch to optical to accomplish what you are trying to do.


----------



## spturtle (Feb 5, 2014)

RC said:


> Nope this can't be done on a slave unit while it is linked to the master. With radio controlled flash, the master and it's slaves essentially become one system and are controlled by the master. Keep in mind there is two way communication between master and slave when configured as radio.
> 
> When configured as optical, there is only one way communication--a signal being sent from the master. The master has no idea of how many (if any) slaves are out there. Essential the slaves are completely independent and will fire only if it can see a signal from the master. That is why you can adjust the optical slaves right at the slave.



The reason why it isn't available is explained (implicitly) in the manual: Canon doesn't see a need for it because all 
RT master devices allow full manual control of the slaves. This override feature can be annoying/confusing when you have it enabled "by accident" and try to control the slaves from the master. But all 3rd party flashes have a dumb optical slave mode built-in so it's a little disappointing that Canon doesn't support this.

AFAIK the standard way to do remote shooting is with a (long) USB cable and a laptop (or with wifi) but I don't know if all flash settings can be controlled that way.


----------



## alexanderferdinand (Feb 5, 2014)

Just thinking loud: (I already noticed this behaviour.)
What about control the flashes by a second camera?


----------



## JonAustin (Feb 5, 2014)

spturtle said:


> AFAIK the standard way to do remote shooting is with a (long) USB cable and a laptop (or with wifi) but I don't know if all flash settings can be controlled that way.



Yes, they can be controlled this way. I have a regular gig where I set up a portrait studio on the client's premises, using 4 600EX-RTs (1 on camera, 1 main light, 1 fill light and 1 background or hair light). All the off-camera Speedlites are set as radio-controlled slaves to the on-camera master. Using a laptop tethered to the camera via USB and running Canon's EOS utility, I can easily adjust the output of each flash as needed.


----------



## InterMurph (Feb 5, 2014)

This guy has apparently perfected the technique you are aiming for:

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2011/09/mike-kelley-two-speedlight.html

He is selling an 8-our DVD on this technique:

http://fstoppers.com/how-to-photograph-real-estate-architecture-and-interiors-tutorial-with-mike-kelley


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 5, 2014)

You can't do exactly what you want natively with the 600's. But I do what you are doing all the time and just don't find I need to vary the power settings at all, the way I work the scene though is to take several shots and vary my distance to the subject wall, this, effectively, brackets the flash exposure on the highlighted section.

Using this general technique has several limitations in the RT system.

Firstly, as you point out, you can't vary the flash power from the triggering remote 600. But I haven't found this particularly limiting.
Second, for some reason Canon don't support flash use and bracketing exposures at the same time. I find this annoying if I want a touch of flash consistently in one place but want the rest of the scene bracketed. You can do it all manually, but being locked out of auto bracketing is a limitation 
Third, and not Canon related, the YN-E3-RT does not work correctly in Remote Triggering Mode for pre 2012 cameras, it does not fire the remote flashes, even the one you are triggering the camera from, it does trigger everything with post 2012 cameras.
Having said that mixed lighting and ambient are 100% the best way to showcase interiors where lighting is any kind of architectural element.

P.S. Ditch the additional remote, Remote Shooting with the 600 is so easy, Menu 2 - left hand button - REL, done.


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 5, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> for some reason Canon don't support flash use and bracketing exposures at the same time.



They probably saved this for Magic Lantern which enables it :->


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 5, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > for some reason Canon don't support flash use and bracketing exposures at the same time.
> ...



And ML doesn't work on all bodies


----------



## Steven_urwin (Feb 6, 2014)

Zv said:


> Let me just get my head around this one. So you have multiple flashes all in manual and you're triggering them via a third party remote trigger on your camera? What kind is it btw?
> 
> Then you want to be able to change the power setting for the off camera flash and fire the shutter remotely using the speedlite or remote control? But it wont let you change the power? That's strange.
> 
> Is it in slave mode? If using wireless triggers you need to keep the speedlite in normal mode i.e not slave mode. This can cause issues off camera. That could explain why you need to put in on the hotshoe to change the power.




So a little more information.I have multiple flashes (2x 600EX-RT (and one ST-E3 RT)). I am triggering the camera current using a Honl remote trigger, this is plugged into the side of the 5DMk3. And correct, I would like to be able to shoot a frame, not bothered about the on-camera flash, flashing (I currently have it set to not fire - I could put the ST-E3 RT in it's place, but the 600 has the AF assist beam, so I'm opting for the 600) and have the flash in my hand (off camera) fire.. then change the power setting on this off camera flash in my hand, and shoot the next frame. Effectly Flash Exposure Bracketing. But with the 600EX-RT, in radio mode, it seems that I can't set it to just trigger the remote flash, it has so send the power setting from the camera. There is no -/+ option when in manual. It does give me the +/- option in ETTL which is highly frustrating!!

The way around this, is to buy a set of wireless triggers (Pocketwizards, or similar) but this just seems stupid, seeing that the 600EX-RT SHOULD save you having to buy triggers!!! ARGH


----------



## Steven_urwin (Feb 6, 2014)

spturtle said:


> The feature you want to use is apparently a mode called "individual slave" but it is only available when using Canon's older "optical" remote triggering system. Maybe you can use that instead?



Thank you for this SPTurtle! This might just have to do as a work around. It's just a shame that I sold off my 580EXII's, to upgrade to a 600, as I thought that this would save me having to buy pocket wizards (or similar) to find out that I can't do it! I can't figure out why canon wouldn't let you do this!!


----------



## Steven_urwin (Feb 6, 2014)

RC said:


> Steven_urwin said:
> 
> 
> > What I would like to be able to do, is walk about with my 600EX-RT in hand, and point it at where I would like to pin point a little extra light. Then set the 600EX-RT that is off camera (in my hand) to manual, and choose my power setting. But it seems that when the flashes are linked, I can only set the power level by adjusting it on flash in the hotshot. However, I would like to be across the room, with flash in hand.
> ...



Thank you for your input RC. I fear that you might be right with this, which is a shame. Do you know, can I have the off camera flash in my hand as the master, and then have all the controls on the remote flash. I know that I can set it up to Master Linked Shot, but I can't see a way of achieving it this way.


----------



## Steven_urwin (Feb 6, 2014)

InterMurph said:


> This guy has apparently perfected the technique you are aiming for:
> 
> http://strobist.blogspot.com/2011/09/mike-kelley-two-speedlight.html
> 
> ...



Yes, this is exactly what I am looking to achieve, but with the built in radio tech, in the 600's. He either uses dumb optical, or Pocketwizards.

It just seems stupid, to clip a Pocketwizard, or similar to the bottom of a 600, seeing that they have a radio trigger built in. Just a massive waste of money, bag space batteries, weight... well everything reason I bought the 600EX-RT, and not just pocket wizards for my (now sold off) 580EXII's! I'm sure I am an exception, and for every other use, they have proved faultless... but trust me to need the one option, that it can't seem to do  Hopefully someone can come up with this, I'm still hoping that I have just overlooked something!


----------



## Steven_urwin (Feb 6, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > for some reason Canon don't support flash use and bracketing exposures at the same time.
> ...



Massive +1... just imagine, ML on Speedlights, on the possibilities are endless. ML, if you are listening Second Curtain Remote, and Remote head zooming please!!!


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 6, 2014)

Steven_urwin said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



The YN-E3-RT allows second curtain sync, but I fail to see what use it is 99.9999999999999% of the time.

"Individual Slave" was a way of faking Group Mode pre Group Mode, you could force any number of slaves into Manual and have others in ETTL, but you had to go to each Manual Slave to adjust the power, which was seen as a huge disadvantage, and you had/have no Remote Release option. You can still do the "Individual Slave" thing with the 600's, but you lose the REL option, and you resort to the optical range.

You'd be far better off either adjusting your distances for effective flash exposure for the handheld 600, or using ND gels on it to adjust the power. This sample book comes with ND filter swatches that are the perfect size.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 6, 2014)

Steven_urwin said:


> InterMurph said:
> 
> 
> > This guy has apparently perfected the technique you are aiming for:
> ...



He used to use dumb radio. Then he tried the PW, now he uses the 600's. 

This is exactly what I do and I have never had a need to adjust the in hand flash power. The layered in shots give a huge amount of latitude, first with exposure, then with curves, then with opacity. 

People who actually do this love the 600's and it is working well for them. In fact I know one real estate shooter for Sotheby's who has shot Nikon for over 30 years, and has got a 5D MkIII just to use the 600's and the 17 TS-E.


----------



## Steven_urwin (Feb 6, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Steven_urwin said:
> 
> 
> > InterMurph said:
> ...



I see the Mike Kelley started with Optical flashes, and then pocket wizards, but I can't find anywhere where he says that he is now using 600's. Do you know where you read this? I'd love this to be true, as it means there must be a way of getting around this.

As for you real estate shooter for Sotheby's... it's great to hear that some people are switching from Nikon to Canon, on this forum, it always seems to be that Canon can't keep up, or isn't competitive anymore! Do you know how he is shooting hit flashes? Are they just in E-TTL, or is he having to return to the camera, to redial in the manual flash exposure, anytime he wants a change?

Thank you for you time

Steve


----------



## RC (Feb 6, 2014)

Steven_urwin said:


> ...Do you know, can I have the off camera flash in my hand as the master, and then have all the controls on the remote flash. I know that I can set it up to Master Linked Shot, but I can't see a way of achieving it this way.


Yes. In fact a viable work around for you might be to get a 33' OCF ETTL cord. This will allow you to have the master flash in your hand while connected to the camera's hot shoe up to 33' away. I use to have one of these prior to switching to the 600EX radio system. They're well made and work great.

http://ocfgear.com/

Get the 33' model, it's a non-coiled cord and moves nicely.


----------



## Steven_urwin (Feb 7, 2014)

RC said:


> Steven_urwin said:
> 
> 
> > ...Do you know, can I have the off camera flash in my hand as the master, and then have all the controls on the remote flash. I know that I can set it up to Master Linked Shot, but I can't see a way of achieving it this way.
> ...



Thank you for the suggestion, but I'm really looking at doing this wirelessly, preferably with triggering with radio, rather than optical


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 7, 2014)

Steven_urwin said:


> Thank you for the suggestion, but I'm really looking at doing this wirelessly, preferably with triggering with radio, rather than optical



So, given the advice above, it sounds like you have three options:


Wait for Canon to implement the feature you want
Spend hundreds of dollars on Pocketwizards
Spend a few dollars on some ND gels

I don't know about you, but the third one sounds pretty good to me.


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 7, 2014)

Steven,

You are making far more work out of this than it is. 

First, you cannot use ETTL, it just is not what ETTL is designed for. Second, taking just the small highlighted section illuminated by the hand held 600 has masses of exposure latitude because of the way you can adjust the exposure and then blend it. That is why nobody I know brackets the in hand flash, just know that you get the rough exposure you want of anything at a certain distance; I know f8 and 10 feet @ half power gives me a second story burst, at 20 feet it is a ground floor burst.

Myself, and everybody who I know that does this, just uses manual flash mode and pops away, if you don't have the remote viewing capability just keep varying your flash to subject distance, zoom setting, and angles.

But, because this question has been bugging me and you clearly don't want to go the ND filter gel route I have come up with a work around using just the 600's.

First, put the on camera unit (ST-E3-RT or 600-EX-RT) in Group mode, second, set each group to M and a different setting such that you would want to bracket, third, set the in hand flash to Group A, take the shot with the REL option. Then change the in hand flash to the next Group B, take a shot, then change the in hand flash to the next Group C, take the shot etc etc. This will give you five different exposures from the in hand flash.


----------



## Steven_urwin (Feb 7, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Steven,
> 
> You are making far more work out of this than it is.
> 
> ...



Private Design, I think that this is possibly the smartest workaround imaginable! Thank you for this. I could just use ND filters, I'm sure, but I'm just loving this solution.

I agree that there is a lot of latitude to play with, but I can imagine certain senarios where I would want to go from close to both ends of the power spectrum between two shots, and I might not want to return to camera to set this (highlighting a feature, to filling a secondary room).

Also, when I'm trying to pin point the lighting to highlight a certain feature, I don't really want to be moving in and out, to change flash power, so that is why I have seemed a little against this option.




Thank you to everyone who has worked on a solution for me, thank you for you time!


----------



## privatebydesign (Feb 7, 2014)

Glad you like the suggestion 

As an added feature you can store that Group M and five different power levels settings so you don't have to input them each time. Menu 4 - Memory - Save, and to get them back, Menu 4 - Memory - Load.


----------



## Zv (Feb 8, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Steven,
> 
> You are making far more work out of this than it is.
> 
> ...



This a pure genius solution. It's so simple!


----------

