# Am I the only one excited about the new 7D mk2?



## wickidwombat (Sep 22, 2014)

So its no great secret i'm not the worlds biggest fan of crop sensors...

but the EOS-M is a great little camera to support my 5Dmk3 for various things and means no lens changing

so looking at the specs of the 7D2 I am actually pretty excited about this
well not excited enough to buy it bleeding edge but say in a year or so when prices drop and bargains are around or sales i am definately interested in picking one up to use on my tamron 150-600

I have pretty high expectations for the new AF system given how great the 5Dmk3 and 1DX AF systems are

but all I read are posts about people crying that its not what they wanted.

so anyone else excited about the potential for this new camera?


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm _very_ impressed by it (won't say "excited" until I own one - which I certainly will) and like you I don't get the negativity.

It's just another example of the false sense of entitlement so many people seem to have these days - "how dare Canon not make me _my_ perfect camera..."


----------



## -Jarred- (Sep 22, 2014)

Excited? No, but I wasn't hugely disappointed like some others. Pretty much what I expected and it looks like a pretty competent camera as far as I can tell.

I'd love one as a 2nd body for the crap factor when shooting motorsport, but I'd much rather something wider in the lens dept and a couple of primes I have my eye on.


----------



## whothafunk (Sep 22, 2014)

as an outdoor sports camera, super excited, you cannot get any better (minus the 1DX/D4s). as an indoor, not really excited. early tests show almost no improvement over the 70D in ISO.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

No, the 10fps, plus the AF, plus the reach should be pretty impressive (the metering too if it does have spot linked to AF point, so far I've heard yes and no on that).


----------



## Zv (Sep 22, 2014)

I feel as if (and this only my opinion which is worthless) the ones doing the crying are not the people who the 7DII is aimed for. 

You have landscapers moaning about only 20Mpix and the usual DR nonsense. 

Then you have videographers banging on about the lack of 4K. 

Meanwhile sports / wildlife photographers are quietly pre-ordering. If I was a sports photographer I'd be pretty excited to have the 7D II either as a back up or main camera. I have a feeling once some solid reviews come around and people get to feel how easy the camera is to work with (loved my 7D ergonomics) things will calm down. 

I thought the 7D was an amazing camera but on paper when it was compared to say a 60D there didn't seem to be all that much different. Once you actually use the 7D you start to realize that it's a beast and is built to last. The IQ was it's Achilles heel but hopefully that issue will be addressed to a satisfactory level and what we'll get is a highly refined machine!


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 22, 2014)

For all people looking at video, it's a huge disappointment, because even if you don't need 4K now, you might need it in the coming 4 years. definitely you don't need mushy unsharp video now. in times with very fast developments in technology canon honestly thinks videographers want to work with the same video quality until the year 2018 that they already gave us in 2008? that's weird, especially as at photokina 2 years ago they already did show what is possible in terms of dslr video. missing focus peaking etc clearly is a sign that their marketing departments dictate the technology, by falsely thinking giving us those features would cannibalize their expensive cinema line. i personally would have bought 3x 7D2 if it was 4K as addition to my 1DC, now i have 3x GH4. bad luck canon, they should fire all of their japanese decision makers. even for photo people it's a huge disappointment having no wifi, no swivel screen, no high megapixels etc. as an upgrade 5 years after the first 7D you can say that it won't hurt to simply keep the old model.


----------



## pwp (Sep 22, 2014)

douglaurent said:


> For all people looking at video, it's a huge disappointment, because even if you don't need 4K now, you might need it in the coming 4 years.
> 
> I personally would have bought 3x 7D2 if it was 4K as addition to my 1DC, now i have 3x GH4.



I've stopped looking to Canon to solve my video requirements. Why worry? The Panasonic GH4 is just awesome. I'll probably get another one. The Panasonic glass is compact and classy. With the new Metabones MFT Speedbooster my Canon glass is an option for video usage too. Cool!

However I'm pretty excited about the 7DII for stills. Most work is shot on the 5D3 and the 1D4, but the 1D4 with well over 500,000 clicks may soon be getting a bit tired. I like having a good crop body, though like WW I'm an APS-H fanboy. The x1.3 crop APS-H 1D4 is an absolute classic. Even with the high milage, I won't be completely retiring it any time soon.

The awesome AF of the 7DII is what interests me. For evening events work the 1D4 is has lousy AF when the light is low, only saved by a Yongnuo 622C with it's very bright AF assist. With a 7DII I can leave the Yongnuo 622C at home and enjoy Canon's best AF this side of the 1DX. And it's inexpensive! Having used very nicely evolved touch-screens on the GH4 and SL-1/100D, it's disappointing that this great feature didn't make the cut. 

Really looking forward to checking out some high iso 7DII RAW files. I'd only expect a modest gain over the 7D and don't really expect a match with the 1D4, but if 3200 is usable I'll be a happy camper.

-pw


----------



## jrista (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm impressed by the AF system and iTR functionality. It's long past due that models other than the 1D received an advanced meter tied into the AF system. I think it will give the camera extremely accurate tracking, especially combined with 65 cross-type AF points.

I'm not particularly impressed with the IQ. I was honestly hoping for more...a LOT more. It's marginally improved over the 70D, seemingly mostly in terms of lower color noise (similar to the 6D at high ISO vs. the 5D III...much lower color noise there.) I was hoping Canon would take the opportunity with the 7D II to reveal an impressive new sensor, to show they are still in the sensor IQ game...but nope. 

I'm also a little bummed the AF system is not comparable to the 61pt system in terms of point sensitivity. It seems most of the points are only f/5.6 sensitive, which means there won't be any AF performance bonus at f/4 or f/2.8 (outside of the central point(s), at least.) I think the AF system will perform well, but for those who have f/4 or f/2.8 prime teles, I honestly don't think it will perform as well as the 61pt system. The 1D X also provides increased AF drive power, so it will still focus faster (not even the 5D III focuses as fast as the 1D X.) 

I think the 7D II, if it was really a "video" release, comes off as lackluster on that front, at best. Seems like everyone out there has better offerings on the video front. I think even though 4k hasn't hit it big in people's living rooms yet, for a camera that could potentially exist for five years, not including 4k seems like a mistake (even if it only lasts 3 years until replacement, that's three years where 4k TV and video will be getting cheaper and taking off even more.)

Aside from the AF system and iTR, which in some ways isn't as good as the 61pt AF system, I think the 7D II comes off as a bit lackluster. That's probably why there isn't quite as much excitement on these forums for it. It'll probably sell well...far too many people have pent up energy waiting to buy the 7D replacement, so they will probably sell like hotcakes for a while. It finally has some competition, though. Despite the 12-bit readout (which I personally don't think is nearly as big an issue as it's being made out to be), I think the Samsung NX1 could eventually present a viable alternative to the 7D II. It'll need lenses, or at the very least, a fully capable EF compatible mount adapter so EF lenses can be used on it. If I could slap my 600mm f/4 L II on the NX1, I'd be very, very interested in seeing how it performed. I think the BSI ISOCELL tech should be capable of providing superior IQ, and the high frame rate and impressive-sounding AF system is quite intriguing. (Biggest drawback for me is lack of an OVF...I'm not a big EVF fan...and the EVF in the NX1 doesn't sound particularly high resolution, so that could be it's Achilles' heel.)


----------



## bigbadhenry (Sep 22, 2014)

Zv said:


> Meanwhile sports / wildlife photographers are quietly pre-ordering. If I was a sports photographer I'd be pretty excited to have the 7D II either as a back up or main camera.



Total agree.


----------



## e_honda (Sep 22, 2014)

Unless you're a sports/wildlife photographer, I don't think it's worth the difference in cost between the 70D.

It's a nice piece of equipment, for sure, but I think people expected more given the unusually long 5 year gap between the 2 versions of the same model.


----------



## Sabaki (Sep 22, 2014)

Hell yes i'm excited!

I shoot birds, wildlife, racing etc and this is precisely what I want and need.

I'm also stepping up from a 500D so the performance difference should be huge!!!

Too many people enjoy complaining on this board. Nobody has had the camera in their hands but they seem to know everything about it.

I've pre-ordered and will take the day off work when it arrives. I'll go out there and take photos and leave you guys behind to nag about what the camera should've been


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 22, 2014)

Yes.

Ok, so it's missing a few bells and whistles, but the core of the camera is a weather sealed, 10fps, long shutter life workhorse with an autofocus system to die for. For what it was designed for, this is the best camera on the market and at a decent price.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 22, 2014)

e_honda said:


> Unless you're a sports/wildlife photographer, I don't think it's worth the difference in cost between the 70D.


Unless they're a sports/wildlife photographer (which is unquestionably its intended target audience) why would anyone even express an opinion about the 7D Mk II? 

It's like a farmer whining about a new Ferrari because it won't pull his plough very well through muddy fields with those smooth little wheels...

The 7D Mk II is what it is - and it will be game-changingly good at that.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> I was hoping Canon would take the opportunity with the 7D II to reveal an impressive new sensor, to show they are still in the sensor IQ game...but nope.


They are - and they've never _not_ been - "in the sensor IQ game". For its target audience, an improved 70D derived sensor will be_ brilliant_.

I've said it before, Jon - you'd see significant improvements over your current results simply by using a different converter. Sensors are only a shortcoming _if you let them be._


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 22, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> So its no great secret i'm not the worlds biggest fan of crop sensors...
> 
> but the EOS-M is a great little camera to support my 5Dmk3 for various things and means no lens changing
> 
> ...



I am too. Although I've been in FF since 2005 I acknowledge that in many - (the majority ?) of circumstances there is no perceivable difference with APS, and the 7DII looks like really good value as a smart little action camera.


----------



## Pakneh (Sep 22, 2014)

I just pre-ordered my 7d Mk2 because Henry's had a sweet deal going where you pre-order and get a Canon 24-105 F4 at a $900.00 discount. Presently I already have a 24-70 2.8 and 70-200 2.8, so I simply intented to sell the 24-105 and my 7D to make this a nice steal. 

In another three years time when the 5D4 is available, I have a camera with significantly more resale value to boot.

Personally I love the MK2, the specs are "spectacular", for what I shoot.


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 22, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> I've said it before (...) Sensors are only a shortcoming _if you let them be._



Yes, indeed, however, it is still untrue to discount the huge importance of sensor tech for your end result and shooting abilities.


----------



## can0nfan2379 (Sep 22, 2014)

For what it is I think it will be a great camera. Personally I am still hoping for a true 1D4 successor with a 1.6x crop -- that is integrated grip, weather sealing, build, 1 Series focus drive / response and shorter viewfinder blackout but with a crop sensor for wildlife work in nasty weather. Not sure I'd trust the build of the 7D II to stand up to really adverse conditions.


----------



## capndave (Sep 22, 2014)

Maiaibing said:


> Keith_Reeder said:
> 
> 
> > I've said it before (...) Sensors are only a shortcoming _if you let them be._
> ...



I am not sure what format Canon is using for their RAW files. I guess it's not CR2 because Adobe can't read them. Might be awhile before we learn about the low light performance. 
Canon sez t is new sensor tech and something to do with the lenses o the pixels and the way they gather light. Tile will tell


----------



## tphillips63 (Sep 22, 2014)

can0nfan2379 said:


> For what it is I think it will be a great camera. Personally I am still hoping for a true 1D4 successor with a 1.6x crop -- that is integrated grip, weather sealing, build, 1 Series focus drive / response and shorter viewfinder blackout but with a crop sensor for wildlife work in nasty weather. Not sure I'd trust the build of the 7D II to stand up to really adverse conditions.


Did you ever see the torture test that Digital Rev did on the original 7D? It was very tough so with even better sealing on the MKII, it should stand up to just about anything.
That does not give you the 1 body though and speaking of, why not a one body crop? Too low demand I would guess but I don't know.
As far as my excitement, when I saw the button layout being like the 5d MKIII I was very interested.


----------



## NancyP (Sep 22, 2014)

Me! I plan to buy one - will be contacting my brick-and-mortar store. I like the idea of differentiating bodies. I have a 6D for my landscape and astrophotography. I don't do video.


----------



## NancyP (Sep 22, 2014)

I might add, I doubt that the file format is so different from other CR2s. Adobe Camera Raw should be out with something soon.


----------



## 2n10 (Sep 22, 2014)

capndave said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Keith_Reeder said:
> ...



The files can not be read because the codes behind them have not been released. When they are released the converters will get caught up and all will work again. DPP will be your first converter if you are an early adopter.

I am very excited for the AF upgrades, the speed upgrade and hope that the IQ improvements are at least 1 stop better than the original. I have pre ordered already. Hopefully Canon will have a lot in the pipeline for the pre order folks.


----------



## FEBS (Sep 22, 2014)

I did order one.

I want a fast-backup camera for the 1Dx. I am very happy with the improvements Canon made compared to the 7D. Of course, I don't know what IQ and noise will bring, but I did use a 70D lately and the difference compared to the 7D for noise is quite impressive. I know that FF is even better, but for this price, the 7D2 will be a worthy successor of the 7D.


----------



## Ebrahim Saadawi (Sep 22, 2014)

I am a videographer and excited for the 7D. After proper reviews I'll probably buy one. 

It's the first real upgrade for the Canon video shooter below the 5D level. Finally a s35 canon without aliasing and moire for 1800$. Lovely. 

I own a GH4, it only exceeds the 5D III is resolution, the 7D mk II is identical to the 5D iii video, which means much better colours than the GH4, much better lowlight performance, better dynamic range and larger sensor aesthetic. I only use the gh4 for wide detailed shots, for everything else I absolutely hate that broadcast-video like image. If it produced an ultimately better image than the 5D, I would have used it for everything, no reason no to, it just doesn't. It's wonderful for details though. 

Resolution is not the only aspect of image quality. Easy to forget it seems.


----------



## Helios68 (Sep 22, 2014)

I really consider buying one. I expect some great improvements for my uses, mainly wildlife and some landscape. It could be the right camera to reach the performance of the 1D mkIV and a good upgrade of my actual body 700D. I am just waiting on the first reviews to confirm two important points:
-Outstanding fast AF
-Great ISO performance (I do not expect the same IQ as FF bodies...). Let's be surprised !!!

Hopefully I will not have to wait to long and that there are not too much firmware issues.


----------



## J.R. (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm excited about the 7DII for the AF and the 10fps. if Canon has taken care of the banding, I'm getting one.


----------



## gsealy (Sep 22, 2014)

I think the excitement will build when the camera ships and lots of YouTube reviews by ordinary people are posted. Let's see how well the camera performs by the masses. 

For me, I see the 7DII positioned as a rugged camera that can take lots of and lots photos with very good quality. It is rated at 200K, so it is not likely to break down when you need it the most. I will likely get one to create time lapse video, which takes a toll on less robust cameras. 

We will see.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 22, 2014)

Maiaibing said:


> Yes, indeed, however, it is still untrue to discount the huge importance of sensor tech for your end result and shooting abilities.


And yet I can and do - and _other people _ (lots of 'em) positively revel in the IQ of my pictures.

Despite all the noise about it, in reality the much-vaunted DR advantage is only of _actual value_ in edge cases where a photographer has failed to expose his image properly _and_ hasn't got the conversion/post processing skills to address the mistake.

In short, for the most part, low ISO DR is a get-out-of-jail-free card for photographers who make mistakes with their cameras and don't know what to do about them.


----------



## Zv (Sep 22, 2014)

tphillips63 said:


> can0nfan2379 said:
> 
> 
> > For what it is I think it will be a great camera. Personally I am still hoping for a true 1D4 successor with a 1.6x crop -- that is integrated grip, weather sealing, build, 1 Series focus drive / response and shorter viewfinder blackout but with a crop sensor for wildlife work in nasty weather. *Not sure I'd trust the build of the 7D II to stand up to really adverse conditions.*
> ...



I really loved the bit where they froze the 7D in a block of ice, thawed it out and continued shooting (though it was probably busted but still impressive that it fired up at all!). 

So yeah, the mark II should be as hard as nails. Unless you are going swimming in molten lava with one, I think it'll be just fine


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 22, 2014)

2n10 said:


> The files can not be read because the codes behind them have not been released.



Photo Ninja (unofficially but very efectively) reads 7D Mark II files and my early conversion tests suggest a stop+ high ISO improvement over the 7D - which is pretty damn' impressive, these days.


----------



## weixing (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> I'm also a little bummed the AF system is not comparable to the 61pt system in terms of point sensitivity. It seems most of the points are only f/5.6 sensitive, which means there won't be any AF performance bonus at f/4 or f/2.8 (outside of the central point(s), at least.) I think the AF system will perform well, but for those who have f/4 or f/2.8 prime teles, I honestly don't think it will perform as well as the 61pt system. The 1D X also provides increased AF drive power, so it will still focus faster (not even the 5D III focuses as fast as the 1D X.)


Hi,
Hmm... If I understand Canon AF technology correctly, all 65 points of 7D2 AF points are cross-type when using lens as narrow as f5.6 means that's it'll be cross type if you use a lens faster than or equal to f5.6. The center point will be dual cross points when use with lens faster or equal to f2.8.

If you compare the 61 points AF use by 1Dx and 5D3, only 41 points out of 61 points are cross-type when use with lens faster than or equal to f5.6. Of course, it had 5 dual cross points at the center when use with lens faster or equal to f2.8 which is better than 7D2.

Generally, all Canon lens (except some lens) without TC will enjoy the AF performance bonus of the cross-type for all the 65 AF points which is an improvement over the 61 points AF module, right?? 

Have a nice day.


----------



## drift juice (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm gonna wait to see if the IQ matches/gets close to the 1DIV before I order one. If it doesn't ill just pick up a used IV. Would get a 1DX but the birds are small in Hawaii so the crop helps.


----------



## Steve (Sep 22, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Photo Ninja (unofficially but very efectively) reads 7D Mark II files and my early conversion tests suggest a stop+ high ISO improvement over the 7D - which is pretty damn' impressive, these days.



Where are you finding the original 7D RAW images to compare? I have the 7DII RAWs but can't find the test shot RAWs of any other models. I'd really like to do an apples to apples with the 7DII vs 1DIV. Also, PhotoNinja seems pretty bad at first glance. Is it really just a bunch of automated check box clicking or am I missing something? Do they add necessary functions if you actually pirate buy it?



drift juice said:


> I'm gonna wait to see if the IQ matches/gets close to the 1DIV before I order one. If it doesn't ill just pick up a used IV.



I've said it many times but this is the only reason I'm _not_ excited about the 7DII - it already exists, with a bigger sensor, and I've been using it for years. The 7DII is a really big improvement over the 7D and xxD line in a ton of good ways but it seems like, at best, a side-grade from the 5 year old 1DIV. Unless there are real sensor improvements, that is.


----------



## SecundumArtemRx (Sep 22, 2014)

Zv said:


> You have landscapers moaning about only 20Mpix and the usual DR nonsense.
> 
> Then you have videographers banging on about the lack of 4K.
> 
> Meanwhile sports / wildlife photographers are quietly pre-ordering. If I was a sports photographer I'd be pretty excited to have the 7D II either as a back up or main camera.


Bingo. From a marketing standpoint, you just accurately summed up the 7D Mk II reception and criticisms into three camps! Makes me wish commenter critique could stratified by subject matter (sports, cinematography, landscapes). Dare I say there would be a more academic-like and jovial discussion to be had? :

As a sports and wildlife hobbyist with a 60D - I'm very excited to get a 7D mark II. The enhanced autofocus, upgraded fps, and noise reduction at higher ISOs will boost my keeper % and maximize the action with me following through the viewfinder. If I was interested in more weddings or landscapes, I would have simply upgraded to a 5D mk III or 6D (for backpacking and traveling).


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Sep 22, 2014)

Zv said:


> I feel as if (and this only my opinion which is worthless) the ones doing the crying are not the people who the 7DII is aimed for.
> 
> You have landscapers moaning about only 20Mpix and the usual DR nonsense.
> 
> ...



+1... I really like the idea of the 7d2, but am not excited because I don't have much use for a sports style body.


----------



## 9VIII (Sep 22, 2014)

The more I read about it the more I want one, but right now I'm mostly just looking forward to seeing that extra switch around the joystick on the 5D4.
It's configurable.
I think Canon may finally be approaching Fuji levels of customisation on their controls. If they would let me set the touch wheel for separate commands as well then it would be an even fight.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Sep 22, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> e_honda said:
> 
> 
> > Unless you're a sports/wildlife photographer, I don't think it's worth the difference in cost between the 70D.
> ...



+100


----------



## 2n10 (Sep 22, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> 2n10 said:
> 
> 
> > The files can not be read because the codes behind them have not been released.
> ...



I certainly hope that is true.


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 22, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, indeed, however, it is still untrue to discount the huge importance of sensor tech for your end result and shooting abilities.
> ...



This must be very high on the list of the most irrelevant arguments made this year at CR... 

Your original statement is plain and simply untrue no matter how often you repeat it. Sensor tech is hugely important for your end result and shooting abilities as it sets absolute limits to what results you can achieve with your camera and what digital material you have to work with. 

This is why any decent digital camera review will discuss - in depth - the quality of the sensor, noise patterns, iso characteristics, dynamic range etc.

In fact its so plainly obvious and factual that your intransigence does not merit any further discussion.


----------



## jasonsim (Sep 22, 2014)

Douglaurent:

You ever hear about Canon's cinema line? The 1D C has 4K video. Instead of buying 3 7D II's and 4 Panasonics, get one 1D C and the lenses to go with it!

If I was doing 4K video that was serious, I wouldn't want it on a APS-C or micro 4-3rds sized sensor. 





douglaurent said:


> For all people looking at video, it's a huge disappointment, because even if you don't need 4K now, you might need it in the coming 4 years. definitely you don't need mushy unsharp video now. in times with very fast developments in technology canon honestly thinks videographers want to work with the same video quality until the year 2018 that they already gave us in 2008? that's weird, especially as at photokina 2 years ago they already did show what is possible in terms of dslr video. missing focus peaking etc clearly is a sign that their marketing departments dictate the technology, by falsely thinking giving us those features would cannibalize their expensive cinema line. i personally would have bought 3x 7D2 if it was 4K as addition to my 1DC, now i have 3x GH4. bad luck canon, they should fire all of their japanese decision makers. even for photo people it's a huge disappointment having no wifi, no swivel screen, no high megapixels etc. as an upgrade 5 years after the first 7D you can say that it won't hurt to simply keep the old model.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> They are all cross type, however *Canon throttles AF speed at f/5.6 relative to f/4 or f/2.8*. Even on the 61pt system, even when using only the center points, AF speed slows when I slap on a 1.4x TC onto my 600/4, vs. just using the 600/4. Additionally, at f/5.6, the chances of "hunting" increase. Canon's AF system caters towards looking for a closer subject first when the scene is out of focus by more than a certain (unspecified) amount. So, if I need to photograph a bird in flight, it's FAR better to use an f/4 lens, which is likely to lock on directly immediately, than f/5.6, which is going to hunt forward first if I'm not already close to focus on the bird.
> 
> Maybe the 65pt system changes that, but it looks like the same general firmware as the 5D III and 1D X, so I suspect it'll behave the same.



No, Canon does not throttle AF speed at f/5.6 relative to f/4 or f/2.8. Yes, when you put the 1.4x TC behind your 600/4, AF slows down. But that's not because the combo is f/5.6, it's because of the TC. By design (firmware), a 1.4x TC drops AF speed by 50%, and a 2x TC drops it by 75%. If you put the 1.4x behind the 200mm f/2, you'll have a 280mm f/2.8 lens that activates all 61 AF points including the 5 dual-cross points on the 5DIII/1D X...and still focuses 50% slower. 

The 'hunting' you describe also appears to not be specific to the max aperture or the AF points, but rather to lens or TC combo. For example, the 100-400L @ 400/5.6 hunts with a busy background, whereas the 400/5.6L locks on much more effectively in that scenario.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

Zv said:


> I feel as if (and this only my opinion which is worthless) the ones doing the crying are not the people who the 7DII is aimed for.



There is a lot of truth to that.



> You have landscapers moaning about only 20Mpix and the usual DR nonsense.



That said, not everyone can afford two bodies and some who care about the things the 7D2 excels at surely would have loved to have it had an exmor-type sensor and excelled at all types of landscapes as well (and even for wildlife, there are times when more DR helps, due to say dappled lighting or heck even times when things change super fast and either you or the camera accidentally underexposes a low ISO shot, with exmor that doesn't matter half as much). And the DR stuff isn't nonsense. Not everyone will care so much, but people who do care, do have a legit reason to care.

But that also said, it is true the sensor is good enough to get by with for an action/reach/speed/AF oriented wildlife type camera.

Although it does send a bad a message as to if Canon ever plans on improve their sensors at low ISO.



> Then you have videographers banging on about the lack of 4K.



Again, it is true that Canon has treated the 5 series the primary video quality advancement line and for the primarily stills wildlife guys it doesn't matter.

That said, some wildlife guys DO like to take videos and 4k surely makes wildlife type stuff look better.
Plus they left out zoomed modes, precisely the modes that would especially have made sense on a wildlife camera. And they left out focusing aids and zebras. And they even left out touch screen for easy control of target subject or changing when using DPAF. And the tilt screen which also helps for macro wildlife and even for things like team sports circle celebrations, etc.

And it also means they have more room to cripple the 5D4 video and there is a lot of talk now that even the 5D4 video will be a total disappointment. So of the complaining is just fears over the 5D4 and where Canon is headed and how much more can they keep holding back and crippling this or that.

And it's not only that they left 4k out of the 7D2, they didn't even give it a nce, natural, detailed 1080p, but the same old waxy look even though it has so much digic power.




> Meanwhile sports / wildlife photographers are quietly pre-ordering. If I was a sports photographer I'd be pretty excited to have the 7D II either as a back up or main camera. I have a feeling once some solid reviews come around and people get to feel how easy the camera is to work with (loved my 7D ergonomics) things will calm down.



That is true too and as I said above, the 10fps, with that AF and that reach should make it, even despite the sensor, a stills wildlife or even sports photographers dream. It should be a total beast and that whole crowd will likely be over the moon and with good reason.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

pwp said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > For all people looking at video, it's a huge disappointment, because even if you don't need 4K now, you might need it in the coming 4 years.
> ...



The worry is that it is inefficient. Now you need to drag a GH4 along with your 7D2 and don't forget the GH4+adapter isn't free. Or you drag along an A7S for video. So it's very inefficient in weight and bulk and cost. And then you need all different types of batteries and chargers and cards and so on.

Granted, at least there are options now and that is what counts even more and pretty soon I think it finally will start to burn Canon more and more.

I'd bet some people will run out of money after the GH4+adapter or A7S or A7S+Shogun and then not have money left to buy more Canon stuff. Not sure how that helps Canon. But obviously their marketing would rather other companies cannibalize their sales than dare internally threaten their 1DC or Cxx in any way (never mind that the Sony FS7 appears to blow that stuff away for less cost now).

And moreso, it makes you wonder just how badly they will punt on the 5D4 video now. I wouldn't be surprised if a 5D3 with ML ends up better for video than a 5D4! They need to give it basics like peaking,zebras,zoomed focus box,non-waxy 1080p, non-waxy 4k or nobody will buy it for video. And some will even skip it entirely and just keep what they have now to shoot and get some sony rig for video.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> I'm also a little bummed the AF system is not comparable to the 61pt system in terms of point sensitivity. It seems most of the points are only f/5.6 sensitive, which means there won't be any AF performance bonus at f/4 or f/2.8 (outside of the central point(s), at least.) I think the AF system will perform well, but for those who have f/4 or f/2.8 prime teles, I honestly don't think it will perform as well as the 61pt system. The 1D X also provides increased AF drive power, so it will still focus faster (not even the 5D III focuses as fast as the 1D X.)



Hmm that is a bit unfortunate to hear about the points. Maybe having them all cross more than makes up for it?
I hope it's not another thing where on paper the AF sounds good (i.e. 7D) but in practice the AF sensor was clearly more like xxD quality than 1 series quality. But hmm are you reading and interpreting the meaning of that properly....

AF is THE thing that this has to sell itself on. Without the video or exmor sensor it's all about the reach (which it has), speed (10fps it has) and AF (which I hope it has).

I'm still betting that the AF will be great. I think Canon has to be smart enough to realize that if the reports come in after the first couple months that the AF doesn't work better than the 7D in practice and isn't at least as good in the field as the 5D3 that the sales will tank. If the AF proves excellent, as I still think it will, despite the lost video sales and maybe a few for those wanting it to have been as tops for all landscapes types as for action, I think it may sell very well. There is probably a lot of demand for a small, high reach, fast body with top AF. A real lot I bet. So it may be a hit.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

Jackson_Bill said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > I feel as if (and this only my opinion which is worthless) the ones doing the crying are not the people who the 7DII is aimed for.
> ...



Some early peaks at raws hint tht it might look better than the 7D at high ISO. It seems like it will have a solid 1/2 stop more DR and 1/2 stop better SNR plus something about the character of the high iso 'grain' is tentatively appearing to be nicer, maybe giving you another 1/3 stop effective feel better.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> Canon data is fine at higher ISO, where banding is minimized. It's particularly at the lower ISOs, up through 400, where the differences become clear. I do quite fine with bird and wildlife photography using my Canon equipment. I can still do fine for landscapes...it's just more work, having to be more meticulous when shooting and processing to clean up banding and do what's possible to reduce color and random noise to make shadows more usable. Those are just things I'd prefer not to have to do.



It seems like the 7D2 has removed all to nearly all low ISO banding though. (the basic read noise is still the same as ever though)


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> I am a videographer and excited for the 7D. After proper reviews I'll probably buy one.
> 
> It's the first real upgrade for the Canon video shooter below the 5D level. Finally a s35 canon without aliasing and moire for 1800$. Lovely.
> 
> ...



A7S video, granted not s35 format, will do way better than 7D2 for image quality, detail, SNR, DR, etc. (and you even have a 4k option with a Shogun).

Don't forget the 7D2 does have 2.56x smaller sensor than the 5D3 so I'm not so sure it will have identical SNR (Although it shoul dbe much better than the 7D). I'm pretty dubious it would look better than GH4 4k downscaled to 1080p.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

J.R. said:


> if Canon has taken care of the banding, I'm getting one.



Unless the pre-production camera is a trick, they have taken care of the banding. I examined an ISO100 RAW file and the masked area showed no banding.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Despite all the noise about it, in reality the much-vaunted DR advantage is only of _actual value_ in edge cases where a photographer has failed to expose his image properly _and_ hasn't got the conversion/post processing skills to address the mistake.



And there you go again. I love it how the fanboy gang gets all huffy and goes on about how the DR crowd has to keep bringing up DR, we get it, nbody denies Canon is behind in DR or that it can sometimes make a difference, but now sooner do you guys finish saying that after having been backed into a corner you are back to the usual BS and mocking.

Sure more DR can help when you miss the exposure (and that can be a very handy thing, it's not something to put down), but you darn well know the main complaint is for scenes with high DR, and where you have exposed perfectly and still don't have enough DR.

And it can not all be fixed with advanced PP. And what you can patch up takes a lot of time, do you want to waste time on utterly boring stuff like that?



> In short, for the most part, low ISO DR is a get-out-of-jail-free card for photographers who make mistakes with their cameras and don't know what to do about them.



And more utter nonsense.


Anyway for what it is the sensor is probably generally fine for the 7D2 since the AF/speed/reach are the most major key points and it appears to excel there.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> weixing said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



All Canon TC throttle AF speed no matter the AF point or body used. A Canon 1.4c TX automatically shuts down AF speed by 50%.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

jasonsim said:


> Douglaurent:
> 
> You ever hear about Canon's cinema line? The 1D C has 4K video. Instead of buying 3 7D II's and 4 Panasonics, get one 1D C and the lenses to go with it!



Or instead of 10k on a 1DC why not 8k on a Sony FS7?
And if you don't have quite that money, as many don't, what about SOny A7S for $2500? (plus a Shogun for 2000 if you want 4k). For $2500 you get better 1080p than the 1DC gives and for $4500 you get better 4k plus an external screen with all the focusing and exposure aids and stuff that Canon left out of the 1DC. (ok, add another $300-400 for the lens adapter)




> If I was doing 4K video that was serious, I wouldn't want it on a APS-C or micro 4-3rds sized sensor.



Almost all Hollywood stuff is smaller than FF. Movie cameras ran the film through in a different direction than stills cams did. So when they run 35mm film, the images are actually pretty close to APS-C, not FF.

That said the A7S is FF  ;D. And the 1DC's best quality 1080p mode is APS-C  .

Anyway this is getting ot be a bit off topic here.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



But don't you notice the TC +300 getting slower AF than the bare 300?

(maybe the super tele II plus TC III changed things a bit, I thought they were said to still largely slow things down about as much although greatly improve AF precision)


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



DOwnload RAWs at IR and then use Iris to look at the masked areas.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



The 300/2.8 II is arguably Canon's fastest-focusing lens. The focusing group in the 600/4 II is ~25% more massive than that in the 300/2.8 II. The bare 300 II focuses faster than the bare 600 II, so the former will be faster with the same TC. I suspect the 300/2.8 II is just so fast to begin with that you don't notice the AF speed reduction as much.

Here's the relevant bit from Canon:

[quote author=Canon DLC]As with previous EF Extenders, usage of Series III EF Extenders lowers AF drive speed to improve AF performance. When Extender EF 1.4X III is used, AF drive speed is reduced by 50%. When Extender EF 2X III is used, AF drive speed is reduced by 75%. This may seem like a drawback, but in reality subject tracking performance remains quite high when Series III Extenders are used with IS II lenses. This is due to improvements in AF precision made possible by the new microcomputer in the extenders.[/quote]

The 100-400L focuses noticeably slower than the 400/5.6, as well, even though both are 400mm f/5.6.


----------



## msm (Sep 22, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



The 100-400L focuses noticeably slower than the 400/5.6, as well, even though both are 400mm f/5.6.
[/quote]

Actually the 70-200 IS II focuses faster than the 300 IS II. And I can not notice any focusing slowdown on the 300 IS II even with 2x converter. The 70-200 however is slooooow with the 2x. This is my experience with both 5DIII and 1DX, the 1DX is slightly faster with both lenses.


----------



## monkey44 (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm probably the only one that thinks this -- but all this argument and complaints about what's "lacking' in the 7D2 appear to come from folks that want to somehow produce the ultimate best image in the world 'just once', like to win a contest or something -- and believe the 'missing item' is the only thing stopping them. It's not.

Because: Every Canon camera and nearly every other brand creates some of the finest images I've ever seen after printing, beginning with the D30 and forward, and particularly since the 30D, and even with a 28/135 low level kit lens. And the technology continuously improves as does the cost -- but the end product for nearly everyone that owns any level from 30D to the 5D, 7D and 1D series will all produce an image that satisfies almost every one that loves photography - from the newest amateur to the best pros in the field. 

So, what's all this fuss about incremental increases in IQ that we can only see if we blow it up twice as large as the biggest poster we can print and measure it in microns ... and most of those measurements make almost no difference in most photographs we see or share ... excluding the very high-end pros and applications.

So, why does every one complain about such small discrepancies between the 7D2 and what one had "hoped to see' in this new camera ... most of the differences must use three place decimal points of a percent to measure it.

So, buy it if you like it, or keep the one you have -- but the most important thing is "go out and shoot the best possible images with what you own", and use both hands and feed those amazing images into your heart, share them with family and friends, or sell them if its a business -- and relax. 

The 7D2 is a great camera, and I'm betting a lot of guys and gals will use it to create some really fine and challenging images too. But don't sweat what's not there, just accept what is there, and use it to continue that on-going hunt for that one image that sets your soul on fire ... and it doesn't matter which camera you use to capture it either, or it's technical merits. When you capture that image, you'll know it, and it won't matter whether it's a thousandth of a degree off center, or a millionth of a shade off color ...

Yeah, I'm really excited about the 7D2, and love what it brings to the table -- and am waiting impatiently until it hits my doorstop to go out and punch the shutter button. And, I don't care much what's 'missing' because I know without a doubt it will pop some fine images into my book regardless of its "perceived short-comings", and will plant a big smile on my face every time I shoot a keeper...


----------



## can0nfan2379 (Sep 22, 2014)

tphillips63 said:


> can0nfan2379 said:
> 
> 
> > For what it is I think it will be a great camera. Personally I am still hoping for a true 1D4 successor with a 1.6x crop -- that is integrated grip, weather sealing, build, 1 Series focus drive / response and shorter viewfinder blackout but with a crop sensor for wildlife work in nasty weather. Not sure I'd trust the build of the 7D II to stand up to really adverse conditions.
> ...



Yeah I have seen that torture test though I'm still hesitant about subjecting my non-1 series bodies to anything serious. I owned the original 7D -- good camera, didn't really care for the pop-up flash. On both the 7D and the 5D3 I currently have, I always run a grip and I guess I'd prefer the integrated grip so that the whole thing is properly sealed rather than having this long battery terminal extension going up inside the camera.


----------



## DRR (Sep 22, 2014)

monkey44 said:


> I'm probably the only one that thinks this -- but all this argument and complaints about what's "lacking' in the 7D2 appear to come from folks that want to somehow produce the ultimate best image in the world 'just once', like to win a contest or something -- and believe the 'missing item' is the only thing stopping them. It's not.
> 
> Because: Every Canon camera and nearly every other brand creates some of the finest images I've ever seen after printing, beginning with the D30 and forward, and particularly since the 30D, and even with a 28/135 low level kit lens. And the technology continuously improves as does the cost -- but the end product for nearly everyone that owns any level from 30D to the 5D, 7D and 1D series will all produce an image that satisfies almost every one that loves photography - from the newest amateur to the best pros in the field.
> 
> ...



Well put!!!


----------



## East Wind Photography (Sep 22, 2014)

msm said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Actually the 70-200 IS II focuses faster than the 300 IS II. And I can not notice any focusing slowdown on the 300 IS II even with 2x converter. The 70-200 however is slooooow with the 2x. This is my experience with both 5DIII and 1DX, the 1DX is slightly faster with both lenses.
[/quote]

So apparently (wether its true or not) the af speed is supposed to be the same with or without the converters. Af has to move less distance with the converters attached so time to reach focus is about the same. Now getting a lock at f5.6 or f8 is another story


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 22, 2014)

msm said:


> Actually the 70-200 IS II focuses faster than the 300 IS II. And I can not notice any focusing slowdown on the 300 IS II even with 2x converter. The 70-200 however is slooooow with the 2x. This is my experience with both 5DIII and 1DX, the 1DX is slightly faster with both lenses.



Do you have any actual evidence of that or just an empirical feeling? For many years Canon touted their 300 f2.8's as the "fastest focusing af slr's".


----------



## East Wind Photography (Sep 22, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



The 100-400L focuses noticeably slower than the 400/5.6, as well, even though both are 400mm f/5.6.
[/quote]

400 f5.6 also has better contrast lines wide open than the 100-400 wide open. Part of the noisy background hunting issue is due to the coma which blurs the lines between black and white. How a lens looks wide open is a great indicator of how well and how quickly it will get a lock. Now there is a real reason to pixel peep prior to purchasing a lens.


----------



## dickgrafixstop (Sep 22, 2014)

Excited? - By boring incremental change to a dated system? No, I'm not excited, but I am disappointed. I see an
aging technology de-tuned to protect it's product cousins filling a marginal price point in a broad market. It's 
easy to see accountants overruling engineers in product design issues and marketing refusing to demand a bold
step forward. Canon may have jumped the shark.


----------



## icassell (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm excited. I'm a wildlife photographer. I want a camera with some reach over FF. I want outstanding AF . I want high ISO capability. I want f/8 focus (I want to put a TC on my 400/5.6 so I don't always need to lug my 500/4 around). I don't shoot video. This camera looks like it will give me what I want to upgrade my 7D. I pre-ordered on day 1. I just wish I didn't need to wait to get it!


----------



## IslanderMV (Sep 22, 2014)

Very interesting digression about lenses and AF performance. 

However, to answer the original question about being excited by the new 7D mk2 … Yea, I am very interested. The price to performance ratio is very attractive. 90% of my shoots are of wildlife out in the bush or on the shoreline. I have an aging and well used 60D that I would like to replace. 

I am going to wait for some actual reviews and user feedback before I buy.


----------



## Ebrahim Saadawi (Sep 22, 2014)

douglaurent said:


> For all people looking at video, it's a huge disappointment, because even if you don't need 4K now, you might need it in the coming 4 years. definitely you don't need mushy unsharp video now. in times with very fast developments in technology canon honestly thinks videographers want to work with the same video quality until the year 2018 that they already gave us in 2008? that's weird, especially as at photokina 2 years ago they already did show what is possible in terms of dslr video. missing focus peaking etc clearly is a sign that their marketing departments dictate the technology, by falsely thinking giving us those features would cannibalize their expensive cinema line. i personally would have bought 3x 7D2 if it was 4K as addition to my 1DC, now i have 3x GH4. bad luck canon, they should fire all of their japanese decision makers. even for photo people it's a huge disappointment having no wifi, no swivel screen, no high megapixels etc. as an upgrade 5 years after the first 7D you can say that it won't hurt to simply keep the old model.



I have been looking for someone who owns and shoots with the 1DC to get his thoughts on a few points so I would really appreciate your input as someone wo actually uses the camera. 

How is the camera like to work with in post? I mean the Motion JPEG files, are they too weak for proper colour grading or is it a robust image I can play with? In short, is it as gradable as the C300's image or closer to the 5D?

A real-life input in how much money I will spend on media when shooting with it would be very helpfull too. Is it thousands of dollars just for media? I am asking this specifically because my budget barely covers the camera body therefore it will be very hard for me to justify spending 4-5K$ extra just for memory cards. 

Lastly how would you rate the overall image quality compared to say the C300 (when outputing in HD), better? Worse?

I own a GH4 as you do as well, and I love how detailed the image is, but I also despise everything else about the image, the colours, the noise levels at all ISOs, Dynamic range and highlight roll off, and the small sensor aesthetic and overall video/broadcast feel. In fact, I like the 60Ds image better than the GH4 for everything but wide detailed shots, the Canons simply rock at these aspects, but they are quite poor just in resolution. So I was wondering if the 1Dc is the perfect camera that has the resolution of the GH4 plus all the pleasing characteristics of the Canon cameras, it seems like a match made in heaven in terms of overal image quality, would you say that's true as a user of both? 

And I also heard of the s35 crop mode on that camera being absolutrly stunning and even better than the C300s image at times, while the full frame crop is just like the 5D, I would love to hear your comments on the s35 mode. 


I am very tempted to invest in one for my business after the latest price drops. Especially since it seems to will stay around for quite sometime as we've just transitioned into 4K so it's a good investment, Canon will not be pushing a 6K 1DC successor soon I predict.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 22, 2014)

dickgrafixstop said:


> Canon may have jumped the shark.



LOLz at YAPODFC. :


----------



## Marauder (Sep 22, 2014)

Yes, I'm VERY excited! On the IQ front, I never expected a sensor that would somehow match FF IQ. I expected something with a moderate improvement over the 70D in IQ (and a substantial advantage over my 7D) and the 7D II appears to deliver. 

Of FAR greater interest to me is the AF system, FPS and buffer--I wanted a killer AF system and a high FPS with a large enough buffer to use it--and Canon appears to have delivered! And for substantially less than I'd expected, which is a bonus! 

Yeah, I'm PUMPED and want one! Just waiting to hear the first solid reviews and I've got to save some more $$'s, but I want one!!! ;D


----------



## Marauder (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I'm VERY excited! On the IQ front, I never expected a sensor that would somehow match FF IQ. I expected something with a moderate improvement over the 70D in IQ (and a substantial advantage over my 7D) and the 7D II appears to deliver.
> ...



It's possible you misread my post. I said I *never  * expected the 7D2 to match FF. I expected a marginal improvement over the 70D and a fairly substantial improvement over my current 7D, which of course is a given since the 70D already has a substantial advantage over the 7D. In essence, I'm saying that the slight improvement over the 70D is already a sufficient increase in IQ for my needs. Sure a killer sensor that blows away the IQ of every other crop framed camera would be awesome, but it was never my expectation. The 7D II looks set to deliver a useful improvement in IQ over my current 7D, while giving a MASSIVE improvement in AF, speed and buffer--and those last three points are the critical ones for me. 8)


----------



## Marauder (Sep 22, 2014)

jrista said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



NP. I guess you can say I'm very excited despite much of the negativity about IQ. I'm excited because the IQ improvements, although evolutionary rather than revolutionary, are sufficient as far as I'm concerned. And, of course, we only have a few images to go by so far. 

Personally, I think the camera will be a huge hit for the target market of the wildlife and sports shooter. It will be a hit right out the door, although its ability to sustain that success depends on the AF system, more than any other feature. If it delivers as promised, this will be a hugely popular action camera, especially for outdoor use. But it all hinges on whether the AF system DELIVERS! Given the success of the AF system on the 5D III and the 1DX, I think it will be a fantastic AF system. On the flip side, if it repeats the AF debacle of the 1D III, it would be a punishing blow to Canon, but I think that's unlikely. I suspect that the reason the camera was delayed so long is that Canon was tweaking and perfecting the AF system---I think they realize how much is at stake if the AF system isn't simply excellent.


----------



## Marauder (Sep 23, 2014)

jrista said:


> Yeah, the AF system is probably the most important feature for the 7D II. Frame rate is probably next important, and they did well there. I personally was looking at the sensor to see if Canon had moved to a new fab, and it does not appear they have. That's disappointing to me, just in what it indicates for the future (which could change, but I'm skeptical.) I am very curious to see how the Samsung NX1 performs in real life. If it has Canon lens adapters, it might be a very viable competitor, given it's high FPS. The AF system sounds awesome...if it is as awesome as it sounds...I might actually pick one of them up (in part also for astrophotography...a high res BSI APS-C would be pretty awesome for OSC AP.)
> 
> I also just saw the Canon page on the updated information they are now displaying in the viewfinder, which is pretty cool. I don't see a histogram in there yet, which is sad, but Canon seems to be moving in that direction with it.



I concur that the AF and frame rate (and the buffer to use the frame rate!) are the key elements. A new "knock your socks off" sensor would have been cool too, but it was less of a priority for me than the AF, FPS and buffer. "Decent" IQ with a killer AF/FPS and buffer was more important than a great new sensor and a disappointing AF/FPS and buffer. But getting both would have been awesome of course. I think we'll have to wait for the next FF camera to see what else Canon has up their sleeves for sensor tech. 

The NX1 appears to be an amazing effort from a company trying to break into serious image capture. Will be interesting to see how it performs on all fronts.


----------



## Marauder (Sep 23, 2014)

jrista said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



It will be interesting to see what happens once production models start getting tested and reviewed.


----------



## raptor3x (Sep 23, 2014)

jrista said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Somebody over on FM dug through the sample RAWs and it appears that while the low ISO DR hasn't improved much, the high ISO DR has improved very signficantly. They're measuring the DR at ISO 6400 to be equal to the 5D3.


----------



## papa-razzi (Sep 23, 2014)

Here is the thing for me. The 7D is a great camera. It does quite a lot for a very reasonable price - affordable to a large number of people. I have used it for 4 years, to take track, volleyball, football, soccer, & basketball photos, as well as general shooting. I have captured some awesome pictures. The AF, once you really know how to use it and adjust the settings to your style, is very good. The images are usable even in lower light. Ergonomics of the camera are excellent. Granted, in low light, needing a faster shutter speed for sports you push the ISO limits of the camera - but you still get shots you couldn't otherwise get - *unless you spent significantly more money* than the 7D costs. My only wish was less noise at high ISO in low light - a lot to ask for any camera. High ISO in good light wasn't that bad. 

The 7D II improves on the 7D in high ISO performance, AF performance, and FPS performance, among other things. The price point has remained close to the same (comparing introductory pricing). For what it does, and for the price it does it for, you are not going to be able to beat this camera.

Granted, if your focus is IQ and you largely use the center focus point, get a 6D. If you want an awesome all-round camera with great IQ and very good AF, get a 5DIII (for much more $$). If you want everything without much compromise on anything, get a 1DX for (substantially more $$).

For the price point, the 7DII provides a tremendous amount of value. I believe this camera will sell quite well.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 23, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> They're measuring the DR at ISO 6400 to be equal to the 5D3.



No, it's less.
It is better than for the 7D though, but about half a stop (maybe +/- 1/3 stop as the masked vs main area and high ISO ratings might differ).


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 23, 2014)

But at the end of the day as a speedy reach/AF stills cam it (7D2) really should excel and be pretty kick-ass. Nothing else seems to have the specs to match. 

Sony 7100 might have better low ISO, but it has a really bad buffer, it's slower, very likely worse AF....
No way I can imagine the Samsung's AF being close....
etc.


----------



## raptor3x (Sep 23, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> raptor3x said:
> 
> 
> > They're measuring the DR at ISO 6400 to be equal to the 5D3.
> ...



The dynamic range of both the 7D2 and 5D3 at ISO 6400 is 8.3EV based on the measurements from the sample RAWs for the 7D2 and DXO for the 5D3.


----------



## NancyP (Sep 23, 2014)

Well, for the money, yes, I am excited about having a pro-level AF and frame rate for my reach-limited application (birding). When I do landscape or astro shooting, I take my 6D. Should I have gotten a 5D3? That wouldn't solve the reach issue.

Most cameras are better than most photographers.


----------



## msm (Sep 23, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > Actually the 70-200 IS II focuses faster than the 300 IS II. And I can not notice any focusing slowdown on the 300 IS II even with 2x converter. The 70-200 however is slooooow with the 2x. This is my experience with both 5DIII and 1DX, the 1DX is slightly faster with both lenses.
> ...



I have evidence in that I just recorded it at 50FPS and it takes the 70-200 36frames to go from infinity to MFD and back to infinity compared to 39 for the 300 IS II. So the difference was less than I expected from my memory but it is still there.


----------



## msm (Sep 23, 2014)

And with a 2x mark III converter it takes 45 frames. But it required more light to focus at that speed with the original light it was much slower. With more light the bare lens 70-200 only required 31frames but the 300 stayed at 39.

More systematic testing can definitely be done as light seem to influence it but I am lazy.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 23, 2014)

msm said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > msm said:
> ...



That is interesting, thanks.


----------



## Helevitia (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm feeling frustrated with my choices. I bought a 7D in April of 2012 as a stop gap until a 7D2 was announced(thinking it was right around the corner) or a newer, cheaper FF camera. As we all know, the 7D2 was never announced back then and we got the 6D, which has amazing image quality, but lacks in weather sealing and fast AF.

Fast forward, we are now starting to see images from the 7D2, which is barely better than the 70D. Fine, I can live with that. I get it now, I need to go FF if I want the image quality I'm looking for. However, the 5DIII, although amazing, has no USB 3 and is way too expensive! Which is a real bummer. 

The 7D2 has everything I could ever want, but image quality.
The 6D has the best image quality, but no weather sealing and slow AF
The 5D3 covers everything but USB 3, but is now 2.5 years old and way too expensive. 

So, looking at my choices, I basically want the 5D4 for less than $2k 

I bought both the 70-200 L and the 24-70 L lenses in anticipation of upgrading to better image quality. It took me 3 years to be able to buy both.

Thinking out loud, the 5D3 would be fine if it wasn't $3200 retail! I could live with USB 2. I know it goes for as little at $2550 on they ebay auctions now and then, but even at $2550 it is incredibly expensive.

In my humble opinion, the 7D2 should have had much better image quality. If it was closer to the 5D3, I would have pre-ordered it. I know, there are a lot of people that will say the true RAW images haven't been looked at in detail and high ISO this and low ISO that, but what we already know with the images we have, speak for themselves, again IMHO.

I haven't looked into too much detail from other manufacturers, simply because I've always liked Canon, but I feel I'm waning a bit. 

What other choices do I have, if any? I've always felt cameras were overpriced anyway for the high end cameras. They must be making a killing. Canon seems to be a bit behind and that's another frustrating part. I'm just an amateur photographer(always for fun) that wants a great camera without having to take a small loan out to get one.

Maybe I need to reset my expectations?


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 23, 2014)

Helevitia said:


> So, looking at my choices, I basically want the 5D4 for less than $2k



And I want a 1DX MkII for less than $4,000 and a 1Ds MkIII replacement for less the $5,000 too, guess what, it ain't gonna happen.

Incidentally, what difference does USB 3 make to anything?

Look around all you want, you will find the high end DSLR crop camera market wanting, if you have decent lens requirements your choices are the 7D MkII and the 5 year old Nikon D300s, which is basically the 7 year old D300, and if you are a gambler this weeks Sony offering, but it probably won't be supported next week.

If you truthfully want a serious IQ kick then same generation FF gives it to you, but at a price, if you can't or don't want to afford the price then you have to make a compromise.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 23, 2014)

Helevitia said:


> The 7D2 has everything I could ever want, but image quality.


Oh, for the love of God, what does that even _mean_?

The 70D's IQ is as good as - and in many cases better than - any other crop sensor's IQ: any piddling _low_ ISO DR benefit that Sony sensors might have is both insignificant and irrelevant - this isn't a landscape camera.

The 7D Mk II's sensor is better again than the 70D (I own the 70D and the 7D, so - sorry and all - I'm talking from a position of actual first-hand experience), and in my test conversions of 7D Mk II Raws (which Photo Ninja handles _very_ well, even though it's not yet officially supported) I'm seeing an easy stop + of high ISO (_where it matters for this camera_) improvement over the 7D.

What more do people expect? That's an _amazing_ improvement.

And at lower ISOs, the 70D/7D Mk II files are clean as a whistle compared to the 7D's - none of that "noisy skies at 100 ISO" nonsense that followed the 7D around...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 23, 2014)

Helevitia said:


> The 5D3 covers everything but USB 3, but is now 2.5 years old and way too expensive.
> 
> So, looking at my choices, I basically want the 5D4 for less than $2k
> 
> In my humble opinion, the 7D2 should have had much better image quality. If it was closer to the 5D3, I would have pre-ordered it.



The 5DIV won't be less than $2K, nor less than $3K at launch. 

Get a USB3 card reader. 

Probably unrealistic to expect APS-C IQ to approach FF. If you want FF IQ, you compromise on other features...or pay more.


----------



## Khalai (Sep 23, 2014)

Helevitia said:


> The 6D has the best image quality, but no weather sealing and slow AF



The 6D is supposed to have the same level of weathersealing as 5D II. But nobody will say, to what level that actually is  Pity, there is no IPxx classification on camera bodies.

I once spent a whole day in Venice, weather was drizzle, rain or heavy rain only, my 6D+16-35L hanging all day long, soaked wet and nothing happened. So even with obscure level of weather sealing, those babies can stand some abuse. We are often too protective of our gear (not talking about extreme conditions OFC).


----------



## Too_Many_Hobbies (Sep 23, 2014)

I am on the fence about the 7D Mark II. I love the low-light IQ on the 6D. Actually, there is really not much that I can complain about for what I do (this is after all just my hobby). I ended up selling my 7D which was my wildlife camera for the 70D mainly for the video features (as I now have a 2 year old and twins on the way, so video is becoming more and more important for me). I was also hoping for it to have 4K video, but that was really more for ‘future proofing’ and to buy me some latitude in post processing down to 1080p (provided I ever get some time for post-processing!).

I was really hoping the 7D Mark II would have a touch screen, if not one that tilted (I figured that was quite unlikely). That is what is holding me back – I hate to give up features (touch, tilt, wifi) when spending more money for an upgrade when what I have is already quite usable. And when shooting video, I do use the touch focus a lot. 

I had the same problem with the 5D Mark III. I sold my 5D Mark II and bought the 6D as I understand the IQ at least at higher ISO is actually a little better, and the 6D has GPS+WiFi, plus I bought it refurbished for less than half the price I can seem to get a 5D Mark III. 

Anyway, I look forward to more testing and reviews, as the autofocus/frame rate/buffer seem fantastic. I would love to have those in my 6D! I think I saw that you can use exposure comp in M with auto ISO, which is another feature I would love to have – more so than the frame rate bump. So, I am probably looking to the 5D Mark IV next go around and hoping it has a touch screen, 4K video, improved autofocus (similar to the 7D II if possible, meaning huge buffer, slightly increased frame rate etc.), and possibly more MP if the IQ can stay at least as good as the 6D (just so I have more cropping latitude in post for wildlife and don’t feel I “need” a crop body).

Still, overall, after surveying what other manufacturers are up to, I am happy with Canon’s offerings and am looking forward to see how the G7 x and 7D Mark II compare to their competitors and am hoping for a 5D IV that I will drool over for 2 years as I save up money for it.


----------



## Ruined (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm very excited, just not excited enough to pay full MSRP at launch. At first sign of discount though, it will be mine! 

Then hopefully Canon will announce 5D4 next year with 6D quality ISO and removable focus screen and I will be set!


----------



## Sportsgal501 (Sep 23, 2014)

I am!!
I'm upgrading from the Canon 50D so I'm more than happy that I can stay with Canon . 
Because if the 7D Mark II was just a rumor, I was seriously considering getting the Nikon 7100 late November.


----------



## I_Miss_Minolta (Sep 23, 2014)

N. Day Shyamalalaland is coming out with his FIRST comedy movie this fall:

It's about a Pudknocker who mopes in front of his computer all day. Unaware of the fact that IQ is _subjective_, he wastes away zooming in on images 1000% looking for the mythical, “Perfection Snipe” only to repeatedly turn toward the camera...

“I see dead pixels.”

-------------------------------------------------

The 70D's sensor sucks—since when? Spend 5 minutes on Flickr: find me a sucky 70D image—just one. 

The 7Dm2 is gonna be just fine.

Care about the _wonderment_ you capture, not the data. Don't be that "Pud" ^ there.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 23, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > raptor3x said:
> ...



It remains to be seen. I measured higher for 5D3 and even 5D2, but I didn't apply actual ISO rating correction for the 5D3 as DxO did. Their 5D3 copy also might be a little bit on the weak side for high ISO read noise compared the two I've tested.


----------



## Steve (Sep 23, 2014)

I_Miss_Minolta said:


> The 70D's sensor sucks—since when? Spend 5 minutes on Flickr: find me a sucky 70D image—just one.



Less than 30 seconds

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15143688377/sizes/l
(sharing is restricted so click through)

I have no idea how this guy did it but thats a sucky 70D image right there


----------



## Ebrahim Saadawi (Sep 23, 2014)

I can take a bad picture with a medium format hasselblad. Irrelevant. 

The 70D image quality and sensor are nothing worse than any APS-C sensor camera out there. Identical. I can proof that with side by side images, while those claiming it has bad image quality prove this by quoting DxO numbers. 

Canon sensors are just as good as any other. If the 7D mk II has disadvantages image quality is not one of them.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2014)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> Canon sensors are just as good as any other.



Technically that is simply not at all true at lower ISOs. They are considerably behind in low ISO DR. You may not ever care, and that is fine, but that is another matter.


----------



## raptor3x (Sep 24, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> raptor3x said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



I find this really interesting. Do you think this is due to copy variation or due to a difference in the way the tests are conducted? Do you see differences in high ISO DR for short exposures in bright light vs longer exposures in dim light?


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 24, 2014)

jrista said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Incidentally, what difference does USB 3 make to anything?
> ...



Doesn't that work via the 5D MkIII HDMI connection?

I tether a lot and haven't found a stills limitation to USB 2, Ethernet, or WFT's, but I don't do video so maybe I am being shortsighted.


----------



## Ebrahim Saadawi (Sep 24, 2014)

Yes it works from the 1100D to the 1Dx. I don't think USB is a suitable connection for tethering or transferring a live video feed. The HDMI output on all Canon DSLRs transfer the liveview feed at the full frame rate @ Full HD 1080p to a monitor/pc/external recorder, HDMI is a much better solution for such uses. The 7D mk II takes this even further than all the other Canon DSLRs by allowing to output the signal without overlays/menus for clean viewing or recording, whilst having the camera LCD turned on and showing the overlays/menus, and it works up to 60p, with 4:2:2 chroma sampling (vs the internal 4:2:0). It's a very high quality signal for monitoring and even recording, USB is no where near that, plus we are already suffering in the video world from how fragile and flimsy the HDMI cables is to use in professional applications, I can't even imagine working with an even worse mini USB cable, it would be a utter nightmare, this alone in my opinion makes it useless for most professional tethering/monitoring needs. 

It might be helpful if you specifically want to use the Canon utility application, which sucks, and which we have no information that it will work better with USB 3 compared to 2, so that is guess work. The only real advantage of USB 3 I can think of is transferring files faster directly from the camera, but then again you can get a USB 3 card reader anyway. 

It's very strange this would be a deciding factor in choosing a Camera for someone.


----------



## NancyP (Sep 24, 2014)

I have no idea yet of the image quality of the 7D2, because I haven't had the chance to download the RAWs taken at different ISOs and run them through ACR/Lightroom. Anxiously awaiting Adobe Camera Raw 8.7. I shoot RAWs so the better OOC jpgs of 7D2 are irrelevant. 
That being said, everything else in the 7D2 specs sound like value for money for the hobbyist wildlife or sports stills photographer.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > raptor3x said:
> ...



Sometimes there is a little difference between masked area and main area, you can get maybe 1/4 stop there. Also the amount of gain applied at each ISO varies and you can get a good 1/3 stop difference there, in a few extreme cases between the bodies giving the most and least boost it might be at least 1/2 stop.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2014)

Ebrahim Saadawi said:


> The 7D mk II takes this even further than all the other Canon DSLRs by allowing to output the signal without overlays/menus for clean viewing or recording, whilst having the camera LCD turned on and showing the overlays/menus, and it works up to 60p, with 4:2:2 chroma sampling (vs the internal 4:2:0). It's a very high quality signal for monitoring and even recording,



At least with the 5D3, the clean HDMI out ended up making little difference for video quality. The damage was done pre-compression. I suspect it will be the same with the 7D2. Using ML RAW however, wow, that gave the 5D3 some really amazing 1080p quality, vastly better than the clean HDMI out, so much more detail and color, etc.


----------



## Ebrahim Saadawi (Sep 24, 2014)

Yes the the difference between the 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 is hardly noticeable to most viewers, it's a very, very small difference that only shows up in keying and heavy colour grading. ML raw is 14bit (!) and 4:4:4, that A LOT of colour information, more than most cinema cameras ever made at any price. I never bothered to record that HDMI signal given how small the difference is, which means that the H.264 codec is doing a very good job internally compared to ProRes, both looking almost identical. The HDMI on the 7D is still very good for monitoring a clean uncluttered image and the LCD stays on too which is very helpful, the HDMI also includes audio for the first time on a Canon DSLR, and of course useful for external recording if you have specific need for 4:2:2 for heavy grading and keying, and if you want to deliver edit-friendly ProRes files straight off the card, just don't expect noticeably higher image quality than the internal codec, they are virtually the same.


----------



## garyknrd (Sep 24, 2014)

After a little reading and reviewing the RAW files I have canceled my pre-order here in Thailand. I was caught up in the hype. hummm

Here is some good reading about the AF systems on EOS cameras if anyone is interested. 
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Photography-Tips/canon-eos-dslr-autofocus-explained.aspx


----------



## weixing (Sep 24, 2014)

garyknrd said:


> After a little reading and reviewing the RAW files I have canceled my pre-order here in Thailand. I was caught up in the hype. hummm
> 
> Here is some good reading about the AF systems on EOS cameras if anyone is interested.
> http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Photography-Tips/canon-eos-dslr-autofocus-explained.aspx


Hi,
I just wonder what the expectation everyone had with 7D2... it's quite obvious that this camera is not IQ priority... the 7D2 is all about speed... speed to capture the moment.

I sold my 6D once 7D2 is announce... 6D is an excellent camera with very good IQ, but since I use my camera mainly for birding, I had a problem with 6D: 6D don't focus well when subject is small and most birds are "small" especially for FF camera... even my old 60D focus better than 6D for birds. So basically:
1) 6D will give an excellent IQ, but high chance of out of focus image, Or
2) 7D2 had high chance of getting an in focus image, but there will be a lot more noise. 

So my conclusion is to sell the 6D and get the 7D2 (since I can't afford 5D3 or 1Dx) because as noise reduction algorithm and computation power improve, the possibility of cleaning up a noisy image is higher than to make an out of focus image in focus.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Craig Burrows MBE (Sep 24, 2014)

First post, I have lurked here long enough:

IQ is at least partially subjective, also the production camera & RAW software is not yet available, let true battle commence when the production model & Adobe Camera Raw 8.7 software are released if that is what your buying considerations are based on. I also only shoot in RAW & speed is very important for me.

USB 3 is important for getting sports/disaster photos out fast (although wifi would have been nice), in these situation seconds do matter, while I maybe “strange” this works for me. If this had a touch screen or a flip-out screen I would not have it on order. Yes they can be built weather resistant for a lot of situations; just not the situations I occasionally end up shooting.

My 7D got me some great sports shots for national publication & my typhoon/flooding shots international coverage. It withstood typhoon rain & only gave up once but that was my fault as the conditions were so bad I could not have got a decent shot but chose my safety over the cameras. Personally weather sealing is very important. I have dropped the 7D in flood water & it kept on shooting minutes later!

For my needs the 7D MKII has the improvements I had hoped for. It is unrealistic to expect a crop sensor to match a FF one, if you want FF pay for it as this is obviously not the camera for you. If you want a cheaper camera with a longer reach that can be used in harsh conditions this is the best available.

The Samsung & Sony are interesting but I know the 7D, trust Canon & have the lenses. I dream of unicorns & perfect cameras but when I wake up I am happy that I have ordered the 7D MKII for the photography that I do – sports, wildlife & disasters. Only very rarely do I shoot landscapes so I do not even have Canon lenses for them. 

Thanks to www.cameraworld.co.uk


----------



## FEBS (Sep 24, 2014)

weixing said:


> So my conclusion is to sell the 6D and get the 7D2 (since I can't afford 5D3 or 1Dx) because as noise reduction algorithm and computation power improve, the possibility of cleaning up a noisy image is higher than to make an out of focus image in focus.



it depends what type of birding you shoot. Birds in the flight, yes the 7D2 will outperform the 6D as like you mentioned better noise then an out of focus image. If you however shoot almost always static birds, then I would advice to keep the 6D. I know the most birds don't sit still, but you have time to focus at that moment and the central focus point of the 6D is really good. You will not miss the supplemental length brought by crop as you can crop your image much more compared to APS-C, and certainly if you need high shutterspeeds (1/1000), as then iso must go up, and that on crop does cause a lot quicker noise in the image then on FF. I don't know what lens you are using for birding, but that's perhaps something to think on.


----------



## garyknrd (Sep 24, 2014)

weixing said:


> garyknrd said:
> 
> 
> > After a little reading and reviewing the RAW files I have canceled my pre-order here in Thailand. I was caught up in the hype. hummm
> ...



I think the 7D II IQ will be just fine actually. I guess I didn't explain my position good enough. 
I already have a camera with AF ability as good or better than the 7D II. All I would be gaining is a little more reach.

I will pick one up for sure. It will make a great camera for me with a little more reach. But, at this point will wait a while.

Have a good one.


----------



## jthomson (Sep 25, 2014)

First meeting of my photography club this week and the talk was all about the 7D2. Lots on pre - order at the local camera store. One member said he was number 150 on the list. I would say that most are upgrading from 7D.


----------



## wickidwombat (Sep 30, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Helevitia said:
> 
> 
> > So, looking at my choices, I basically want the 5D4 for less than $2k
> ...



I think the crippled SD slot is a bigger PITA than no usb 3...


----------

