# EOS 7D Mark II, EOS 70D & 700D in 2013? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 23, 2012)

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<strong>Sensor delays


</strong>A new sensor line will appear in 2013 that will be seen across the entire APS-C lineup. Expect to see the first announcements in the first half of 2013.</p>
<p>The delays in developing the sensor was apparently a big reason for the big firmware update for the 7D. It’s also suggested that there may not be a 7D/60D amalgamation in the future. The 7D Mark II will not be an APS-H camera as some have wished/rumored.</p>
<p>Source: [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_3d.html" target="_blank">NL</a>]</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## DB (Sep 23, 2012)

Does that mean there will be no 70D (am I reading this correctly), but there will be a 7D2 with the same shared sensor as a new 700D/T5i?

edit: cannot see Canon launching a 70D and 700D in the same season


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## Chosenbydestiny (Sep 23, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;\"><glusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=11387\"></glusone></div><div class=\"tweetmeme_button\" style=\"float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;\"><a class=\"tm_button\" rel=\"&style=normal&b=2\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=11387\"></a></div>
> <strong>Sensor delays
> 
> 
> ...



A new sensor is very good news. However, I still doubt anyone will ever be happy in this forum AKA Canon's unofficial complaint box.


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## KitsVancouver (Sep 23, 2012)

I wonder if it will make its way into the EOS M line.


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## weixing (Sep 23, 2012)

Hi,


DB said:


> Does that mean there will be no 70D (am I reading this correctly), but there will be a 7D2 with the same shared sensor as a new 700D/T5i?
> 
> edit: cannot see Canon launching a 70D and 700D in the same season


 It's said 7DII, 70D & 700D... Will be very interesting if they launch 3 DSLR with the number 7 in one event (I doubt Canon will do that)... ha ha ha 8)

Have a nice day.


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## Lee Jay (Sep 23, 2012)

This sounds like great news to me.

Canon - pay attention.

7DII - 5DIII/1DX based AF system, WITH f/8 AF sensors at the center.
Flexible video crop (full-frame to 1:1 crop in all modes) for all these cameras.
5DIII firmware update to include flexible video cropping.

Give me that (and good sensor performance, obviously), and I might be in for BOTH a 7DII and a 5DIII.

Big time bonus - native DNG format, including the option to use the new lossy DNG raw format (huge, huge advantage over MRAW/SRAW). Include this in the above-mentioned 5DIII firmware update.

Yeah...I'd definitely crack open the checkbook for that.


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## Canon-F1 (Sep 23, 2012)

hoped to see a new sensor earlier.... at least make it worth the wait this time.


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## Drizzt321 (Sep 23, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> This sounds like great news to me.
> 
> Canon - pay attention.
> 
> ...



It would be nice for them to use DNG, however I suspect not. I mean, after all, it drives people to use their DPP, at least for a little while after a new camera release. 

Beyond that, allowing up to a 1:1 video crop is quite an interesting concept, although matters less to me since I mostly just do stills. However, if you could do a crop in camera (more to save space while still maintaining 1:1 pixels used/pixels recorded), that could be really interesting.


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## simonxu11 (Sep 23, 2012)

KitsVancouver said:


> I wonder if it will make its way into the EOS M line.


I really hope so, but I still don't think canon is putting much effort on the eos m line as long as they can dominant the APSC DSLR market. 

This first eos m just tells us that canon is in this market now and they will not introduce anything smaller than APSC size. The delays in developing the sensor may also one of the reasons why they just released a very entry level at the beginning instead of aiming for more advanced market.

At least we all know now that canon do realise they have some catch up work to do in this area and I hope they don't just upgrade the body without improving the sensor then put a high price tag on it.


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## brad-man (Sep 23, 2012)

Announcements in the first half of 2013. Delivery in 2014. Can someone give me a wake up call?


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## Lee Jay (Sep 23, 2012)

Drizzt321 said:


> Beyond that, allowing up to a 1:1 video crop is quite an interesting concept, although matters less to me since I mostly just do stills. However, if you could do a crop in camera (more to save space while still maintaining 1:1 pixels used/pixels recorded), that could be really interesting.



Realize the T2i and 60D have this already for 640x480 mode, and the T3i has it for 1920x1080 mode.


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## unfocused (Sep 23, 2012)

I love it when a plan comes together. 

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=8175.msg149586#msg149586

Okay, I admit I was wrong about some of the features of the 6D. No touch screen, no flip screen and it does have micro-focus adjustment. You can take some deductions from my score for those, but if the 46 mp camera emerges, I want extra points for calling that one.


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## DB (Sep 23, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Okay, I admit I was wrong about some of the features of the 6D. No touch screen, no flip screen and it does have micro-focus adjustment. You can take some deductions from my score for those, but if the 46 mp camera emerges, I want extra points for calling that one.



It seems that both touch screen & swivel screens were a fad. According to Canon you don't need either with WiFi, plus with the German 6D video showing the EOS Utility now built-in to WLAN mode on the 6D, even custom presets now are no longer limited (after all if you're wirelessly using EOS Utility with MacBook or Laptop/iPad, you can upload new C1/C2/C3 settings from your computer 'on-the-fly' without touching your DSLR on it's tripod).

We can probably assume that all new EOS models will have WiFi as standard, although with wireless EOS Utility now a core feature on the 6D, it must not resonate too well with those WiFi-less 5D3's and 1DX's.


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## DzPhotography (Sep 23, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Flexible video crop (full-frame to 1:1 crop in all modes) for all these cameras.
> ...


Thank you ;D


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## onkel_wart (Sep 23, 2012)

I hope that the shutter on my 50D will keep on running long enough for a decent replacement...


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## kapanak (Sep 23, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Flexible video crop (full-frame to 1:1 crop in all modes) for all these cameras.
> ...



Bitter much? If you crave pure stills DSLR, go Medium Format. I hear they are still doing only photographs. Heck, some of them don't even have Live View. I am sure they will welcome you (and your wallet) warmly.

On the other hand, 35mm FF and below DSLRs will have video. It is a reality. Nobody forces you to use it, but then nobody will make you a custom DSLR without an immense amount of money escaping your wallet first. 

Too bad, eh?


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## sagittariansrock (Sep 23, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> new sensor line will appear in 2013 that will be seen across the entire APS-C lineup. Expect to see the first announcements in the first half of 2013.




If this is true, then that's very good news. Canon built an excellent APS-C camera, and while we are all happy shooting with it- they do ample R&D to bring out a better sensor and cover the only possible flaw in the camera. The time span is sufficient for us to get money's worth out of the camera as well (not talking about Pros- who possibly would do that in a month?). Dual CF cards will be nice, though. Me likey!


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## nonac (Sep 23, 2012)

Should hit shelves about 2015. The one thing I hate about Canon is that they make an announcement and then it is months before the product is available. Getting tired of that. Why don't you wait until you are only a week or two away from release before making the announcement?


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## Etienne (Sep 23, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Flexible video crop (full-frame to 1:1 crop in all modes) for all these cameras.
> ...



Another photog elitist. That's odd when top pro's are concluding that photo-journalists are on the way out and EVERY photographer needs to double up with video, which is the future.

Some people will opt out and be left behind.


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## Lee Jay (Sep 23, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Flexible video crop (full-frame to 1:1 crop in all modes) for all these cameras.
> ...



Sure...show me a nice video camera with interchangeable lenses and an APS-c sized sensor, that occupies zero space so that I don't have to carry it along side my dSLR.


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## heptagon (Sep 23, 2012)

Let's hope they get their 80MP APS-C sensor out. That could be run at 20MP (2x2 downsample), 9MP (3x3 downsample) or 5MP (4x4 downsample) in low light mode. They have the technology, they just need to build it.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 23, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> The delays in developing the sensor was apparently a big reason for the big firmware update for the 7D.



... as theorized by many posters in the cr forum. However something "new" doesn't necessarily mean "better", it could also just be "cheaper to produce". But since Canon isn't competitive with the current 18mp version anymore I'm very curious if they'll just upgrade the mp count or can do something about the current low and/or high iso/dr limitations.

If they want to spread three cameras across 2013, the 7d2 as the most expensive to arrive first cannot be that far away.


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## Bosman (Sep 23, 2012)

Ha, CR1 and he says it will not have aps-h! lol A rumor that is definitive doesn't seem like a rumor.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 23, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > The delays in developing the sensor was apparently a big reason for the big firmware update for the 7D.
> ...


Upgrades to the sensor will likely be lower noise for the readout, a tweak to the Bayer Filters, and more readout channels. We'd also likely see the embedded AF points as seen on the T4i. This will make live focus faster as well as enable AF during video.
Overall, there are many Sensor tweaks possible. There will be no miracle, however, the laws of physics still apply, and sensors are getting to be about as good as they can be, so its just small increments of improvement.
Of course, there are some technologies in the R&D stage that have the potential to be large improvements, but these seem to lose value once they actually try to build a working sensor.


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## ecka (Sep 23, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> ...The delays in developing the sensor was apparently a big reason for the big firmware update for the 7D...


Reading between the lines:
We would not get this firmware update, if there was no delay in sensor development. Canon would just make us pay for a new camera.


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## Albi86 (Sep 23, 2012)

ecka said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > ...The delays in developing the sensor was apparently a big reason for the big firmware update for the 7D...
> ...



The trend was clear with the 60Da already


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## willis (Sep 23, 2012)

Currently having 7D and next upgrade what I'm going for is just pure FF sensor, I'll take my hands on 5D4_?_ next! 
But still waiting to see what Canon comes up with.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 23, 2012)

Btw: "EOS 7D Mark II, EOS 70D & 700D" ... only one consumer body? There are supposed to be at least two xxxd releases a year, what's up Canon? :->


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## kapanak (Sep 23, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Btw: "EOS 7D Mark II, EOS 70D & 700D" ... only one consumer body? There are supposed to be at least two xxxd releases a year, what's up Canon? :->



Guess they are assuming that since the economy has improved (ha!), people will be willing to buy from the xxxD lineup, and Canon would just replace the xxxxD lineup with the EOS-M camera/lenses.


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## sagittariansrock (Sep 23, 2012)

nonac said:


> Should hit shelves about 2015. The one thing I hate about Canon is that they make an announcement and then it is months before the product is available. Getting tired of that. Why don't you wait until you are only a week or two away from release before making the announcement?



Guess that allows people to plan ahead, and gives Canon some time to study the response and makes tweaks if necessary. This might not necessary be Canon's motive behind the delay, though.


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## nicku (Sep 23, 2012)

Bosman said:


> Ha, CR1 and he says it will not have aps-h! lol A rumor that is definitive doesn't seem like a rumor.



. if 7D2 came out APS-C... than the APS-H sensor will be officially killed by Canon. I understand the cost / production factor; but they will kill the biggest advantage ( marketing effect ) they ever had over the competition considering the last announcements in DSLR world by Nikon and Sony.


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## hmmm (Sep 23, 2012)

*My $.02 Canon 6D FUD [CR0]*

I'm hoping that the 7dMkII and 70D enthusiast cameras are announced together in something like March. That seems realistic to me.

imho, there is no way the 700D will be announced at the same time; Canon will almost certainly seek to reap the higher profit margins of the enthusiast cameras before bringing the new sensor to the 700D/T5i, probably in August.

A real sensor improvement and I may be able as an enthusiast to stay with APS-C for a while. Also, by that time we'll have a clear idea of what the 6D performance really is, maybe even a special or two coming our way. Or the 5DmkIII may have some attractive pricing or more deals coming along as well.

Bottom line is that the Canon FUD announcement with the 6D at Photokina worked on me. OK: it's not really just FUD; there's a real working camera, just not yet a production camera and sensor for real testing. But there's enough there and working now to string me along until next spring. The summer hiking season is my main shooting season, so I need a new camera in my hands by next May.

Hopefully Canon will come through. If not, the D600 will still be there.


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## RichM (Sep 23, 2012)

If Canon would put out a 7d2 with a APS-C sensor, better high ISO performance than the 7d, better IQ, better AF, same build, at a price point below the FF models, sales would be through the roof. 

As tempted as I am to sell both my 7d and 5d2 for a 5d3, I'd rather have the above 7d2 and my 5d2. I'm waiting and saving for that.


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## Etienne (Sep 23, 2012)

That's a long wait for a new camera, none of which will touch the Nikon D600 available now.

I am a Canon fanboi, with 5DII and L lenses to prove it. But I just ordered a Samsung EX2F instead of G15, and I am seriously looking at the D600. 

I wish Canon would go all out and give everything they can in a 5D size body. But it isn't going to happen in this round. I doubt I can wait another 3 - 4 years.


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## SwampYankee (Sep 23, 2012)

onkel_wart said:


> I hope that the shutter on my 50D will keep on running long enough for a decent replacement...


Amen. I have $2700 toward an upgrade on my 50D. It sure does not look like it is a good time to upgrade. The 6D is underwhelming (shutter and focusing system). 5D hasn't dropped in price (I'm just not quick enough on the specials) 7D and 60D are old. I may just sit on my wallet until 2013 or until I hit 5D special


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 23, 2012)

Drizzt321 said:


> It would be nice for them to use DNG, however I suspect not. I mean, after all, it drives people to use their DPP, at least for a little while after a new camera release.



Started using using DPP when I bought my 20D, back in the day. And I'm still using DPP as a RAW converter. The only other RAW converter I use for Canon files is Phase One's Capture One.

I know it's kool to dis DPP, but I don't care about apearing kool -- I just want tools that work, and DPP converts RAW files just like God and Canon intended


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 23, 2012)

I've been saying this since the 5DIII came out and it isn't really that difficult to peg... the 7D2 will get a new APS-C sensor that has similar high ISO/NR performance as the 5D3 sensor - the only glaring issue with the 7D IMO; it will get the ancillary features in the 6D/5D3 like aspect ratio in live view etc. and maybe dual CF/SD like the 5D3, flagship APS-C camera... They probably throw in the GPS/WiFi from the 6D as well just to say they added something else... It will also get the continuous AF that the STM lenses afford in video...and hopefully they will launch a couple new EF lenses (primes) with the STM motor other than the 40mm pancake. The other two STM lenses are kit lenses for T4i IMO...too slow and way too much glass for quality video. They will likely address moire etc in the 7D2 just as they did in 5D3. I just hope they make sure the picture styles and color performance match close enough to the 5D3 so you don't have post nightmares shooting both cams together. I saw your post on 1Dx/5D3 color comparison...though not sure of its accuracy, it's a concern still. 

So many people were saying they wanted the 6D to be a "FF 7D" (that is what the 5D3 is folks) rather than an entry level FF camera. Well, now the 7D2 is going to be an APS-C cropped 5D3. ...or 95% of it at least. Word.


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 23, 2012)

Etienne said:


> That's a long wait for a new camera, none of which will touch the Nikon D600 available now.
> 
> I am a Canon fanboi, with 5DII and L lenses to prove it. But I just ordered a Samsung EX2F instead of G15, and I am seriously looking at the D600.
> 
> I wish Canon would go all out and give everything they can in a 5D size body. But it isn't going to happen in this round. I doubt I can wait another 3 - 4 years.



dude, the D600 is getting rheamed by its own Nikon fan boys... it doesn't even allow manual settings in video. Nikon confirmed that to Philip Bloom in an interview at Photokina Friday. A Canon Rebel is better for video than the D600. Spec sheets aren't worth the paper they're printed on...they leave out the "shit we can't do" section every time...


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## Etienne (Sep 24, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > That's a long wait for a new camera, none of which will touch the Nikon D600 available now.
> ...



I'll definitely wait for full reviews, but DPR were sure excited about the D600 in their initial Preview.

hey, I'm a Canon Fan, not because I like the company or that I'm particularly brand loyal, but because Canon used to be unbeatable, at least in my price range. I think they can be today, but choose not to go all in with their new products. The market is competitive, Canon needs to roar.


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 24, 2012)

DB said:


> We can probably assume that all new EOS models will have WiFi as standard, although with wireless EOS Utility now a core feature on the 6D, it must not resonate too well with those WiFi-less 5D3's and 1DX's.



It definitely resonates which is why Canon launched the two new WFT-E6 and E7 wireless file transmitters with the 1Dx/5D3... the included wifi on the 6D has definite limitations, you're not going to be able to transfer RAW at high FPS rates etc at wireless N speed etc... I read an article on it last week, it's a watered down feature compared to the external transmitters...but it's an enthusiast camera so that's fine for the 6D. My guess is they'll include it on the 7D2 just to give them another "added feature" but I think prosumers and pros will find it lacking in speed and other functions compared to the external transmitters...there's a reason those things are $600-700 each. from Canon USA:


WFT-E7A Features

Wireless LAN support for IEEE802.11 a/b/g/n, delivering ultra-fast image transfer speed
Support for wired LAN Ethernet-1000BASE-T for high speed communication
Enhanced linked multi-camera shooting
Media server (DLNA) supported
Wireless time synching
Bluetooth-compatible GPS devices can be connected wirelessly
USB terminal for easy connectivity

"The WFT-E7A is compatible with the EOS 5D Mark III SLR and offers a wireless-only LAN function for enhanced versatility when transferring data. It supports IEEE 802.11 a/b/g/n network connections, providing safer and faster wireless LAN transfers. It has a new image resend feature that ensures all images get transferred, even if a wireless signal drop interrupts transmission.

Wireless connectivity is gradually becoming an industry standard; many photographers are seeking convenient methods to transfer important image data securely and faster without the use of cables and wires. Canon developed *the new WFT-E7A to support IEEE 802.11n, which provides seamless wireless transfers of large files at a speed roughly 3x faster than IEEE 802.11 a/g.*"


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 24, 2012)

Etienne said:


> PerfectSavage said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



No I get it... I just think anyone saying "this is better..." or worse... "Canon / Nikon missed the boat" etc. based on a spec sheet when no one has shot the first frame with a production version needs to chill. Spec sheets are worthless, images and useability are everything.


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 24, 2012)

SwampYankee said:


> onkel_wart said:
> 
> 
> > I hope that the shutter on my 50D will keep on running long enough for a decent replacement...
> ...



I think you're smart. My guess is the 5D3 is closer to 3K USD ($2,999-3,099) by the holidays...and the 6D down a bit to $1,999-2099. You can probably score a gently used 5D2 for $1,300 by end of year too. The question is where does the 7D2 street price come in? It has to be higher than the 1700 street price of the original 7D launch three years ago...but with the 6D at 2K ish, do they make it the same, little less, little more? I'm taking a guess they put it in around 2,300 now that they have the 60D/70D which didn't exist when the 7D1 came out and 50D was way behind... Everyone forgets how much they increased the 5D3 from 5D2... and with a new sensor vastly improving ISO/NR in 7D2, they might go for a higher price given the pro build quality, pro AF etc. compared to the 6D enthusiast design. Spring is a long way away though...


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 24, 2012)

If it's true that there is a 70D and 7D2 coming next year, than Canon will own the APS-C market. Look's like Nikon may be abandonig their better DX cameras 'cuz there are NO rumors about a D7200 or a D400. And that would be bad, without compition to drive R&D there would be little inovation 

I need better not more, a high qualiy 16/18 Mp will be fine. Just give me better Image Quality, better Low Light ability, better Metering and better Focusing.

What APS-C needs are some fast primes for both their still cameras AND the Canon C100 DigitalCine camera. For a lot of things slow zooms just don't cut it. A 15mm (=24mmFF) and a 22mm (=36mm FF) would be a good start. Next a 10mm (=16mm FF) and a 30mm (=48mm FF).


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## PerfectSavage (Sep 24, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...


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## that1guyy (Sep 24, 2012)

The 70D was supposed to come out around this time. I hope Canon gets their act together and releases it by the first half of 2013 in good quantities...I've waited for cameras enough.

I want:

Better sensor for low noise at all ISOs
Better codec (All-I) with higher bit rate and lower compression and better downsampling
eliminate moire, aliasing, and rolling shutter
1080p 60p

For stills:
6fps burst rate
built in intervalometer 
built in HDR mode 


COME ON CANON. The GH3 does all this for $1300. The sony DSLTs all do this.


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## pwp (Sep 24, 2012)

brad-man said:


> Announcements in the first half of 2013. Delivery in 2014. Can someone give me a wake up call?



Ask Siri...

-PW


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## Albi86 (Sep 24, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> No I get it... I just think anyone saying "this is better..." or worse... "Canon / Nikon missed the boat" etc. based on a spec sheet when no one has shot the first frame with a production version needs to chill. Spec sheets are worthless, images and useability are everything.



First reviews and sample images are online. And they look good to me. _Very good_.


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## sagittariansrock (Sep 24, 2012)

nicku said:


> . if 7D2 came out APS-C... than the APS-H sensor will be officially killed by Canon. I understand the cost / production factor; but they will kill the biggest advantage ( marketing effect ) they ever had over the competition considering the last announcements in DSLR world by Nikon and Sony.



Is it such a big loss for Canon if they ditch the APS-H? As far as I understand, APS-H filled a stop gap role to provide a bigger sensor when digital FF hadn't been built yet. That is no longer relevant. Also, it provided a lower resolution/file size to allow for high burst/frame rates. That is also irrelevant with the faster processors. Finally, it allowed for longer reach for sports/wildlife shooters. I can see that easily covered by an in-camera APS-H crop mode on FF cameras, if the FF resolution is >26 MP. Not that the APS-H cameras were particularly cheap! On the other hand, their FOVCF goes only down to 1.3 times of the widest EF focal length (~18mm). Am I missing something here?


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## Richard8971 (Sep 24, 2012)

I am curious to see what Canon plans for a 7D replacement. I love my 7D and I find myself reaching for it more often than my 5D2 for wildlife shots. It is one hell of a fast camera and consistantly produces amazing images. 

Canon has refurbs on sale right now for under $1100.00 (body only). If you were to buy a 7D now, you would not be disappointed. Canon really did themselves in on this one. Any replacement to the XD (7D) line would have to be anything less than perfection because the 7D is as close to perfection in a crop body as you can get!

D


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## verysimplejason (Sep 24, 2012)

Do you think the new sensor will have a better DR at lower ISO than the 5D3 and 1DX? I wish it would but knowing Canon's strategy, it will not happen. It will just be the same thing all over again... :-\


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## adhocphotographer (Sep 24, 2012)

I just hope my little 450D can make it that long, it's on its last legs i think! ... oh well, i guess glass will have to fill the gap for me!  Same sensor in all makes sense, though I'm just hoping there is a notable improvement in it!


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## Richard8971 (Sep 24, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> Do you think the new sensor will have a better DR at lower ISO than the 5D3 and 1DX? I wish it would but knowing Canon's strategy, it will not happen. It will just be the same thing all over again... :-\



If you are referring to an APS-C sensor, that is not, honestly, a fair question or comparison. Crop sensors will ALWAYS have more noise and suffer more DR than their FF counterparts. At ISO 100, 200... It can be hard to tell the difference, but the colors will be smoother on FF sensors. FF will usually win out on image quality over an APS-C sensor image, but the advantage of the crop sensor is increased reach and speed at a lower cost. 

Each sensor has a plus and a minus to offer over the other sensors. 

D


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## Woody (Sep 24, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> If you are referring to an APS-C sensor, that is not, honestly, a fair question or comparison. Crop sensors will ALWAYS have more noise and suffer more DR than their FF counterparts.



That is not true. The Nikon D7000 easily beats ALL Canon FF cameras for DR. Canon sensors have been stuck in the ~ 12 stops of dynamic range for ever and ever.


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## Chosenbydestiny (Sep 24, 2012)

I think Canon is doing an okay job making a camera for almost everyone's needs right now considering their losses through natural disasters and Nikon's.... I mean Sony's jump on sensors. Honestly, if you can't take a great photo between ISO 100 (or even 50) and ISO 1600, which is the most common area for all photographers.... What's the point? Wow, I'm a wedding photographer and it's crucial to my survival that I take clean photos at ISO 104k+ Wow, I didn't even know people were actually there in that dark spot until I took the photo. Canon's sensor is so far behind awwwww Boo-frikkety-hoo. People made it work for so many years, and they're still making it work now. "OMG DYNAMIC RANGE I CAN'T TAKE THE PHOTO CORRECTLY TO BEGIN WITH SO I NEED TO MAKE UP FOR IT IN POST. I HAVE LESS AF POINTS AND IN MY MIND ALL OF THE PHOTOS ARE OUT OF FOCUS. OMG THE SENSOR IS THE HEART OF THE IMAGE AND WITHOUT HIGH SPECS I CAN'T TAKE A PHOTO. SPECS ARE EVERYTHING BECAUSE THE PEOPLE IN MARKETING SAID SO. I HAVE NO SENSE OF PHYSICS OR CREATIVITY, WAAAAAAAAH. I DON'T CARE ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY ITSELF, I WANT TO WORK IN THE ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT. I LIKE TROLLING. I LIKE GOING TO CANON'S FORUM AND BASHING CANON BECAUSE THEY'RE #1 IN MARKETSHARE AND I DON'T KNOW WHY. MAYBE BECAUSE THINGS LIKE LENS LINEUP, ERGONOMICS, UI, AND SKIN TONE REPRODUCTION MATTER NOTHING IN THE REAL WORLD BUT MEGAPIXELS DO." Yeah.... Listen to yourselves.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2012)

So is them realizing they need better DR at low ISO and such and racing to catch up and the 7D2, 70D, 700D,5D4,2D,1DX2, etc. will all have the great new sensor?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2012)

nonac said:


> Should hit shelves about 2015. The one thing I hate about Canon is that they make an announcement and then it is months before the product is available. Getting tired of that. Why don't you wait until you are only a week or two away from release before making the announcement?



They used to do that and the bitching was perhaps even worse, so they can't win either way. Before everyone was P.O. they were given no hints about the future and now everyone is P.O. that they are and that the future is always longer off than expected.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



+1


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> There will be no miracle, however, the laws of physics still apply, and sensors are getting to be about as good as they can be, so its just small increments of improvement.



Canon has plenty of room for miracles at low ISO. I agree about high ISO though, they are now getting so close to the limits that for SNR they can't get much better, I guess they still could improve high ISO DR more but that might be expensive and tricky.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > That's a long wait for a new camera, none of which will touch the Nikon D600 available now.
> ...



That's a shame. They could've pushed Canon to wake up more quickly.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2012)

verysimplejason said:


> Do you think the new sensor will have a better DR at lower ISO than the 5D3 and 1DX? I wish it would but knowing Canon's strategy, it will not happen. It will just be the same thing all over again... :-\



It better not otherwise it might sadly start to be time to think you have to go Nikon, no matter what else you don't like about that, if DR at low ISO matters.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2012)

Chosenbydestiny said:


> I think Canon is doing an okay job making a camera for almost everyone's needs right now considering their losses through natural disasters and Nikon's.... I mean Sony's jump on sensors. Honestly, if you can't take a great photo between ISO 100 (or even 50) and ISO 1600, which is the most common area for all photographers.... What's the point? Wow, I'm a wedding photographer and it's crucial to my survival that I take clean photos at ISO 104k+ Wow, I didn't even know people were actually there in that dark spot until I took the photo. Canon's sensor is so far behind awwwww Boo-frikkety-hoo. People made it work for so many years, and they're still making it work now. "OMG DYNAMIC RANGE I CAN'T TAKE THE PHOTO CORRECTLY TO BEGIN WITH SO I NEED TO MAKE UP FOR IT IN POST. I HAVE LESS AF POINTS AND IN MY MIND ALL OF THE PHOTOS ARE OUT OF FOCUS. OMG THE SENSOR IS THE HEART OF THE IMAGE AND WITHOUT HIGH SPECS I CAN'T TAKE A PHOTO. SPECS ARE EVERYTHING BECAUSE THE PEOPLE IN MARKETING SAID SO. I HAVE NO SENSE OF PHYSICS OR CREATIVITY, WAAAAAAAAH. I DON'T CARE ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY ITSELF, I WANT TO WORK IN THE ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT. I LIKE TROLLING. I LIKE GOING TO CANON'S FORUM AND BASHING CANON BECAUSE THEY'RE #1 IN MARKETSHARE AND I DON'T KNOW WHY. MAYBE BECAUSE THINGS LIKE LENS LINEUP, ERGONOMICS, UI, AND SKIN TONE REPRODUCTION MATTER NOTHING IN THE REAL WORLD BUT MEGAPIXELS DO." Yeah.... Listen to yourselves.



Sure more DR can be useful to rescue shots, but it is hardly just about that! Do you not get that many scenes DO NOT FIT into the DR Canon delivers WHEN PROPERLY EXPOSED. Sure an infinite number do, but an almost infinite number do not. People care about this because THEY actually DO care about actual photography.


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## Woody (Sep 24, 2012)

After the 6D, Canon won't be getting any more money from me until they fix their low ISO dynamic range shortcoming. For lenses, I will pick the new Sigma 35 f/1.4 over Canon 35 f/1.4L, and Tamron 24-70 f/2.8 VC USD vs Canon 24-70 f/2.8L USM Mk2.

If m43 introduces a long focal length 1:1 macro lens (~ 250 mm in 35 mm equivalent), I will give some serious thoughts about dumping all my Canon stuff.


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## mrsfotografie (Sep 24, 2012)

Woody said:


> After the 6D, Canon won't be getting any more money from me until they fix their low ISO dynamic range shortcoming. For lenses, I will pick the new Sigma 35 f/1.4 over Canon 35 f/1.4L, and Tamron 24-70 f/2.8 VC USD vs Canon 24-70 f/2.8L USM Mk2.
> 
> If m43 introduces a long focal length 1:1 macro lens (~ 250 mm in 35 mm equivalent), I will give some serious thoughts about dumping all my Canon stuff.



Maybe it's becoming time a third party manufacturer also develops a Canon compatible body 8)


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## aj1575 (Sep 24, 2012)

nonac said:


> Should hit shelves about 2015. The one thing I hate about Canon is that they make an announcement and then it is months before the product is available. Getting tired of that. Why don't you wait until you are only a week or two away from release before making the announcement?



This is funny. The memory plays tricks on us. It was maybe two years ago, when people on the other side (Nikon) were complaining, that Nikon is announcing products, and that it takes them so long to deliver. Canon at the same was able to deliver right to the spot. Now times have changed, Nikon is fast, and Canon is slow.
Just wait for another year or two, and things will change again. Canon needs to catch up in the sensor department, so they announce their products early, to keep people at bay.(Two years ago it was Nikon who needed to catch up, so they were early to announce products).

What can we do about it? A) Complaining in online forums, about how much Brand X or Y suck because of whatever? B) Switch brands every 4 years? C) Just live with these cycles, and take some nice pictures with already great equppment in the meantime?

I'll go with C.


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## kapanak (Sep 24, 2012)

mrsfotografie said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > After the 6D, Canon won't be getting any more money from me until they fix their low ISO dynamic range shortcoming. For lenses, I will pick the new Sigma 35 f/1.4 over Canon 35 f/1.4L, and Tamron 24-70 f/2.8 VC USD vs Canon 24-70 f/2.8L USM Mk2.
> ...



As unrealistic as that sounds, one has to consider that similar things have been done in the past. 

Look at Pentax and the almost uncountable number of different camera SLR bodies from a vast number of manufacturers with the K-mount. Before that, the M42 screw mount ... 

Same goes for Leica and their M39/L39/LTM screw mount ... many many manufacturers (including Canon) used that mount for their cameras and lenses. Same goes for M-mount, with admittedly much less companies using the mount (Konica Hexar RF, Voigtlander Bessa R and T, etc).

Then look at a smaller number of companies that used the Nikon F mount. Fuji being one of them.

The patents for the EF mount have already expired after 25 years ... Wouldn't anybody be able to make an EF compatible camera without paying royalties or even asking Canon for permission? In fact, didn't we see a EF electronic adapter for E-mount just months ago, as well as the recently released Blackmagic Design video camera? Then again, the mount and it's electronic contacts and communications (aperture, IS, exif, etc) may be free to use as of this year, but the motor controls and AF communications and algorithms are protected by separate patents, so there might be a hurdle there. Sigma could get around it perhaps.

Just a thought.


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## madmailman (Sep 24, 2012)

I can't help but chuckle at the state of affairs on this forum now. For years I coveted a 5Dmkii but couldn't justify getting rid of my 7D to do it. After all the 7D AF system is "light years" ahead of the antiquated 5dmkii AF system. I read hundreds of threads and posts dedicated to how bad the mkii AF system was/is. The general consensus was just giv us a 22mp (who needs more, right) 5D with a better AF system. Well Canon delivered _exactly_ that. What's the old saying? *Watch out, you might get what you asked for.* I'm still amazed at the pictures a lot of you have gotten with your 5D mkii and it's antiquated AF system.

So what exactly is needed on the 7Dmkii ? Just better DR? More MP? WiFi? Espresso maker? Remember the warning (it's in bold above).

P.S. I'm busy saving for a 5D mkiii and I am soooo loking forward to getting my hands on it, even if it doesn't have enough DR/MP/WiFi/whotsits/thinga-mabobs.


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## Albi86 (Sep 24, 2012)

madmailman said:


> I can't help but chuckle at the state of affairs on this forum now. For years I coveted a 5Dmkii but couldn't justify getting rid of my 7D to do it. After all the 7D AF system is "light years" ahead of the antiquated 5dmkii AF system. I read hundreds of threads and posts dedicated to how bad the mkii AF system was/is. The general consensus was just giv us a 22mp (who needs more, right) 5D with a better AF system. Well Canon delivered _exactly_ that. What's the old saying? *Watch out, you might get what you asked for.* I'm still amazed at the pictures a lot of you have gotten with your 5D mkii and it's antiquated AF system.



You're failing to frame things in the right context. 4 years ago all people wanted was a better AF in the 5D2, now things have changed as technology matured and new performance standards were defined. 

Also, the improvement in AF (supposedly) boasted by the 6D over the 5D2 is quite undersized for today's standards and for the price of that camera with respect to other missing features compared to its older sibling.

Some years ago a Blu-Ray player was 800€, now you can have one for 80€. Selling old technology for a brand-new price tag is unacceptable. But I guess Apple fans and stockholders would probably disagree with me.


----------



## AvTvM (Sep 24, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> madmailman said:
> 
> 
> > I can't help but chuckle at the state of affairs on this forum now. For years I coveted a 5Dmkii but couldn't justify getting rid of my 7D to do it. After all the 7D AF system is "light years" ahead of the antiquated 5dmkii AF system. I read hundreds of threads and posts dedicated to how bad the mkii AF system was/is. The general consensus was just giv us a 22mp (who needs more, right) 5D with a better AF system. Well Canon delivered _exactly_ that. What's the old saying? *Watch out, you might get what you asked for.* I'm still amazed at the pictures a lot of you have gotten with your 5D mkii and it's antiquated AF system.
> ...



+1 ... exactly!


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## Etienne (Sep 24, 2012)

mrsfotografie said:


> Maybe it's becoming time a third party manufacturer also develops a Canon compatible body 8)



BDCC has an EF mount camera, $2995.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/855879-REG/Blackmagic_Design_BMD_CINECAM26KEF_Cinema_Camera.html


----------



## madmailman (Sep 24, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> You're failing to frame things in the right context. 4 years ago all people wanted was a better AF in the 5D2, now things have changed as technology matured and new performance standards were defined.
> 
> Also, the improvement in AF (supposedly) boasted by the 6D over the 5D2 is quite undersized for today's standards and for the price of that camera with respect to other missing features compared to its older sibling.
> 
> Some years ago a Blu-Ray player was 800€, now you can have one for 80€. Selling old technology for a brand-new price tag is unacceptable. But I guess Apple fans and stockholders would probably disagree with me.



Your blu-ray comparison is BS. There is nothing new in todays blu-ray player that wasn't in one from 4 years ago. So if you want to use that as an example then compare the price of the mkii from 4 years ago to now. Big difference right? The mkiii has a new sensor, new AF, new processor. i.e. it is NOT 4 year old tech. Anybody who thinks it is is just plain daft. It might not be the tech you wanted in the mkiii but it IS what people asked for.


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## Woody (Sep 24, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> Also, the improvement in AF (supposedly) boasted by the 6D over the 5D2 is quite undersized for today's standards and for the price of that camera with respect to other missing features compared to its older sibling.



Why did Canon introduce a 9 point all cross AF sensor in theT4i/650D but not the 6D? I just find this bizarre.


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## Etienne (Sep 24, 2012)

madmailman said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > You're failing to frame things in the right context. 4 years ago all people wanted was a better AF in the 5D2, now things have changed as technology matured and new performance standards were defined.
> ...



The Blu-Ray player analogy is quite good.

Blu-ray players have improved enormously since introduction. They not only play faster and clearer, they offer a plethora of new features from streaming almost any media from any source, wifi, control by smart-phones, inclusion of media card slots. The upgrades are too numerous to list here. .... and as Albi86 points out, at a fraction of the previous cost.

Albi86's points are well-made.


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## pasghik (Sep 24, 2012)

madmailman said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > You're failing to frame things in the right context. 4 years ago all people wanted was a better AF in the 5D2, now things have changed as technology matured and new performance standards were defined.
> ...



5Dmk3 has a little bit better sensor. Same MP, better ISO by appr. 0.3 stop.
Biggest improvement is AF. But 5Dmk3 is also cost 1000 Euro more than mk2 did on its release and twice the price at the moment of 5Dmk3's release.
So we get more (better AF) for more money. After 4 years. This is not what "technical progress" means.

If we compare 5Dmk3 with other contemporary cameras, it looses in everything. You can claim as much as you want, that only Canon has correct color, sits good in hand or whatever. 
But from technical (measurable) point of view, 5Dmk3 for 3500 Euro belongs to the year 2008.
In year 2012 it is highly overpriced.


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## Albi86 (Sep 24, 2012)

madmailman said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > You're failing to frame things in the right context. 4 years ago all people wanted was a better AF in the 5D2, now things have changed as technology matured and new performance standards were defined.
> ...



Who said the 5D3 is a bad camera? People only complain about pricing, being an incrememental upgrade from the 5D2. The obvious proof is the IQ being roughly the same, with the 5D3 having an edge due to the new processor adn a higher rate of keeprs due to better AF. After 4 years this is the bare minimum, not something to thank heaven for. Another proof is the 5D2 still being a great value option, especially in comparison with the new, more expensive and yet unconvincing 6D. There's general consensus about latest Canon products being around 500$ overpriced, for as much as you can find it BS.

Now go and see the D600 killing the D700 (though being an upper-tier camera!) in almost every respect, having better high ISO in spite of its double resolution, and see how much Nikon priced it. Now THAT is a revolutionary product.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 24, 2012)

madmailman said:


> I can't help but chuckle at the state of affairs on this forum now. For years I coveted a 5Dmkii but couldn't justify getting rid of my 7D to do it. After all the 7D AF system is "light years" ahead of the antiquated 5dmkii AF system. I read hundreds of threads and posts dedicated to how bad the mkii AF system was/is. The general consensus was just giv us a 22mp (who needs more, right) 5D with a better AF system. Well Canon delivered _exactly_ that. What's the old saying? *Watch out, you might get what you asked for.* I'm still amazed at the pictures a lot of you have gotten with your 5D mkii and it's antiquated AF system.
> 
> So what exactly is needed on the 7Dmkii ? Just better DR? More MP? WiFi? Espresso maker? Remember the warning (it's in bold above).
> 
> P.S. I'm busy saving for a 5D mkiii and I am soooo loking forward to getting my hands on it, even if it doesn't have enough DR/MP/WiFi/whotsits/thinga-mabobs.



5D3 IS great other than it's hard to believe they actually slightly regressed on low ISO image quality after half a decade which was very disappointing (and it wouldn't been awesome had it had dual digic and 30MP and still 6fps, maybe the new digic takes too much power or is too large, who knows, hopefully not thinking about future models or maybe they still can't do line-skipping free video above 22MP) and it's just plain silly that they yet again crippled AutoISO in pathetic fashion (maybe ML can fix it). (They also didn't make nearly as much as they could have for video, although now with ML we finally have zebras, better histograms and focus peaking so that is now partly fixed. Still lacking crop modes, clean HDMI out, better codec settings and bitrates and while the GH2 seems a bit too video-like crisp the 5D3 seems kinda softer than 1920x1080p. ML might fix the codecs settings and bitrates hopefully and probably clean HDMI out, crop modes might be more doubtful sadly since they haven't figured out how to code the Digic image processor and chip readouts.) But for stills other than a kind of outdated sensor for low ISO it is a great cam and delivers what was asked (and for video it did deliver the moire-free video). For shooting when it has enough reach and you don't need tons of DR it's absolutely awesome.

The price on the 5D3 did seem a bit high at intro since it didn't also bring along top low ISO DR, although it's now settling more into $2800-3100 range which seems perfectly fine.

7D2 could use the new 5D3 AF (and of course the improved low ISO that they haven't seem to be able to do an get rid of all the vertical banding, on the 7D it can even show in mid tones to one degree or another on many copies) and the improved video. (the 7D AF was not all that, I trusted the 5D2 center point more for one shot and for some sports, like soccer, I swear the 5D2 more often did better than worse for AI Servo than the 7D, although for surfing the 7D did great AI Servo much better than 5D2; 5D3 generally does much better than 7D for AF, the only place they seem the same is for surfing).

Even with the 5D3 out there the 7D2 still makes sense because at only 22MP FF the 5D3 simply doesn't have the reach needed for some things (and 8fps certainly doesn't hurt either).


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## preppyak (Sep 24, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Btw: "EOS 7D Mark II, EOS 70D & 700D" ... only one consumer body? There are supposed to be at least two xxxd releases a year, what's up Canon? :->


No, Canon has only ever released on xxxD camera per year (T1i, T2i, T3i, now T4i)...and then every couple of years they update their entry camera, which is an xxxxD (XS, T3)

You can see the timeline here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canon_EOS_digital_cameras



kapanak said:


> Canon would just replace the xxxxD lineup with the EOS-M camera/lenses.


I think this will be the reality. I can't imagine anyone who would buy a T3 at this point when the EOS-M is similarly spec'd and priced. I think the xxxxD line is dead.

Also wouldn't surprise me if in 3 years or so, the xxxD line goes by the wayside too.


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## naskatar (Sep 24, 2012)

The great thing about this rumor is that it is from the same source as the 'high MP rumor'.

As the high MP rumor claims that there will be a new camera in about one month, we will soon know how realistic this rumor is...


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## Etienne (Sep 24, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> madmailman said:
> 
> 
> > I can't help but chuckle at the state of affairs on this forum now. For years I coveted a 5Dmkii but couldn't justify getting rid of my 7D to do it. After all the 7D AF system is "light years" ahead of the antiquated 5dmkii AF system. I read hundreds of threads and posts dedicated to how bad the mkii AF system was/is. The general consensus was just giv us a 22mp (who needs more, right) 5D with a better AF system. Well Canon delivered _exactly_ that. What's the old saying? *Watch out, you might get what you asked for.* I'm still amazed at the pictures a lot of you have gotten with your 5D mkii and it's antiquated AF system.
> ...



Where? I see the 5DIII still almost US$3500


----------



## distant.star (Sep 25, 2012)

.
"Big bands are definitely not coming back."
-George Carlin, 1981

"APS-H is definitely not coming back." You heard it here first!!


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 25, 2012)

Etienne said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > madmailman said:
> ...



gotta look around, Adorama, J&R, Beach and others have had all sorts of spot sales for it anywhere from $2750-$3175 all said an done. My deal was more complex, but I got it out of J&R, in the end, already months and months ago for $3175, but some of the recent deals have been straight up boom way less than $3499.


----------



## Wahoowa (Sep 25, 2012)

Etienne said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > madmailman said:
> ...



Beach sold 100+ units at $2,799 and Adorama beat Beach at $2,750 for 818 units.

Yep, you gotta look around.


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## db_canon (Sep 25, 2012)

So, this is interesting...

Why won't Canon lower the price of the 5D3 so more people can buy it? Wouldn't they make more money and make the brand more popular? I would buy one. :-[


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## bvukich (Sep 25, 2012)

db_canon said:


> So, this is interesting...
> 
> Why won't Canon lower the price of the 5D3 so more people can buy it? Wouldn't they make more money and make the brand more popular? I would buy one. :-[



Really, who cares what the MSRP is if the street price is dropping?


----------



## M.ST (Sep 25, 2012)

The price for the 5D Mark III is okay, if Canon improve the quality of the RAW-data, the JPG-quality of the pictures and fix the problems that a lot of photographers report since april 2012.


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## AprilForever (Sep 25, 2012)

The 7D MK II will most likely completely redefine APS-C. Those who have mocked the 7D will beg for the chance to kiss Mitarai-San's feet for the chance to beg for forgiveness and the opportunity to be allowed to purchase one!


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## pasghik (Sep 25, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> The 7D MK II will most likely completely redefine APS-C. Those who have mocked the 7D will beg for the chance to kiss Mitarai-San's feet for the chance to beg for forgiveness and the opportunity to be allowed to purchase one!


Bueh..
You say this based on what?


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## akiskev (Sep 25, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> The 7D MK II will most likely completely redefine APS-C. Those who have mocked the 7D will beg for the chance to kiss Mitarai-San's feet for the chance to beg for forgiveness and the opportunity to be allowed to purchase one!


----------



## x-vision (Sep 25, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> The 7D MK II will most likely completely redefine APS-C.



And how is it going to do that  ?


----------



## rotaholic (Sep 26, 2012)

I really hope we hear something about the 70D soon, im about two clicks away from buying a 650D 135STM kit but I want to wait to see if the 70D brings all the cool features of the 650D and puts it in the 60D body and makes some sort or prosumer super camera haha
I will be doing 50/50 photos and video and being younger generation touch screen is a must for me.


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## dougri (Sep 26, 2012)

x-vision said:


> AprilForever said:
> 
> 
> > The 7D MK II will most likely completely redefine APS-C.
> ...



The only way it does that is through negating a few of the traditional advantages of a full frame sensor through improved sensor technology, while retaining the speed and reach advantage of lower megapixel APS-C. If DOF and resolution are the only discernible differences between APS-C and full frame, then they will redefine APS-C as a choice based on use-case rather than as an entry into DSLR photography. The problem is that for economies of scale to kick on on the new sensor, they will likely need to use the sensor down to the rebel line. Marketing such a beast becomes a bit tricky though.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 26, 2012)

dougri said:


> If DOF and resolution are the only discernible differences between APS-C and full frame, then they will redefine APS-C as a choice based on use-case rather than as an entry into DSLR photography.



Absolutely, in an ideal world aps-c would be sufficient for everyone, ff (which is only defined by the legacy analog film) is mainly a fix for bad iso capability atm, at least unless a high mp camera is here. And ff has disadvantages like the slower x-sync.

But in the real world there are a couple of disadvantages to aps-c: if you use ef lenses you carry and pay for glass you partly don't use, and there are no sealed standard-range lenses for ef-s - Canon nails down aps-c to the amateur or birding sector with these non-offers.


----------



## Richard8971 (Sep 27, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Absolutely, in an ideal world aps-c would be sufficient for everyone, ff (which is only defined by the legacy analog film) is mainly a fix for bad iso capability atm, at least unless a high mp camera is here. And ff has disadvantages like the slower x-sync.
> 
> But in the real world there are a couple of disadvantages to aps-c: if you use ef lenses you carry and pay for glass you partly don't use, and there are no sealed standard-range lenses for ef-s - Canon nails down aps-c to the amateur or birding sector with these non-offers.



APS-C sensors only came about as a "cheap"-er way to produce sensors even though Canon knew a sensor the size of a 35mm negative was better. 

APS-C was a common film size so film users considering a switch to digital would already be aware of the "crop" factor and the smaller "negative" limitations with regards to film grain. Yes, smaller film negatives showed more grain than larger negatives. Sometimes we forget that... Don't believe me? Look at a 4x6 photos from the old "Disc" camera. Best sand painting you will ever see!

Seems to me that production costs for sensors will go down as time continues on, so larger sensors will become more common place over crop sensors. Until then, APS-C will be available and I love my 7D. It is an extremely well thought out camera that is fast and responsive. I love the images I get. 

FF has advantages and so does APS-C. Unless one has deep pockets, there will always be budget minded alternitves for the rest of us.

D


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## Marsu42 (Sep 27, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> Seems to me that production costs for sensors will go down as time continues on, so larger sensors will become more common place over crop sensors.



I think the two worlds will grow apart further because there's an *absolute* "good enough" for everyday shooting, and the 18mp sensor is nearly there given maybe 1-2 added iso steps (usable iso1600) and fixing the shadow noise problem.

There's even an *absolute* "good enough" for pro shooting (print size), but Pros will always buy a sensor that has a *relative* edge (ff, medium format) for the simple fact that they have the money to get that edge over the competition and amateur shots. And some users with special requirements (moonlight af'ing like on the 6d) might too.

Since Canon supports pros wanting an edge, they price their pro line as it is - and pros (and well-off amateurs) buy it even if it's less value for the money. That's why I doubt the ff/aps-c *ratio* will shift much in the future, even if *absolutely* both segments will grew because the prices are lower than a decade ago and more people get into digital photography.


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## moreorless (Sep 27, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> dougri said:
> 
> 
> > If DOF and resolution are the only discernible differences between APS-C and full frame, then they will redefine APS-C as a choice based on use-case rather than as an entry into DSLR photography.
> ...



Resolution wise I'm guessing ASPC is already near to the limates of optics for boarder to boarder sharpness though and thats an area were technology isnt advancing nearly as quickly and where any advances come at great expense.

If Canon did release a higher end 7D2 though I don't see the lens issue as being that difficult to fix, just release an updated version of the 17-55mm with improved build.


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## whatta (Sep 28, 2012)

I went to photokina to see the 70d (as it was expected to be announced earlier) 

I tried to get out info from the canon guys with absulitelly no success 
but at least one from UK asked me what I expected from the 70d..

I hope it is coming soon (with a less noisy sensor etc).


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## that1guyy (Oct 1, 2012)

whatta said:


> I went to photokina to see the 70d (as it was expected to be announced earlier)
> 
> I tried to get out info from the canon guys with absulitelly no success
> but at least one from UK asked me what I expected from the 70d..
> ...



Haha awesome!

Did you mention any video features you wanted? Like 1080p 60p??
I also want better dynamic range, less noise, a headphone jack, and no aliasing and moire. I hate how I get my hopes up though. Canon will obviously fail like usual.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 1, 2012)

that1guyy said:


> Canon will obviously fail like usual.



I'm always happy to bash Canon I think it's appropriate ($2099 6d vs d600...) but let's see what they'll do about aps-c next year. The market is more mobile since users didn't invest thousands of $$$ into L glass, so Canon cannot get away with its high-price policy like in the ff sector. If they improve the sensor some and then don't cut back on the features we might see a Canon comeback - maybe after the dslr execs got fired for the 6d.


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