# Any news on Sony A7R II?



## RGF (Jul 29, 2015)

Interested to see the final version of the camera. Had a love / hate relationship with the original A7R, hope that they have fixed some of the problems.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 29, 2015)

Supposedly shipping soon, I was going to reserve a rental, but even with the 20% discount, I did not want to pay $400 to try it for 10 or was it 14 days.

I'll wait for the user consensus and then likely get a 5D MK IV.


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## CaptureWhatYouSee (Jul 29, 2015)

People have started receiving their cameras. The DPR Alpha E-mount forum is active.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 29, 2015)

RGF said:


> Had a love / hate relationship with the original A7R, hope that they have fixed some of the problems.



Me too. I won't miss my A7R. Hope to get the II next week.



> Robert98
> Regular Member • Posts: 112 • Gear list
> Like?
> Test RAW+JPEGs from a7RII with 24mm TS-E II and Metabones IV
> ...




Plus one of the RAWs post-processed by a redonculous number of people: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56224584

And more RAWs including high ISO: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3880707


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## Dylan777 (Jul 30, 2015)

RGF said:


> Interested to see the final version of the camera. Had a love / hate relationship with the original A7R, hope that they have fixed some of the problems.



With 5dsr and huge L selection, not to mention the new 11-24, I don't see the points buying a7rII and use it with L. Unless, you want something smaller of course.


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## 9VIII (Jul 30, 2015)

I think it still has merit as a manual focus body and for the IBIS, If (and that's a big if) it doesn't suffer from high ISO noise because of it.

The A7Mk2 was basically a step backwards in terms of low light performance if you wanted a fast shutter speed, and only worked better if you could extend your exposure time.
For some reason people don't like to talk about how much sensor noise that camera has.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 30, 2015)

9VIII said:


> I think it still has merit as a manual focus body and for the IBIS, If (and that's a big if) it doesn't suffer from high ISO noise because of it.
> 
> The A7Mk2 was basically a step backwards in terms of low light performance if you wanted a fast shutter speed, and only worked better if you could extend your exposure time.
> For some reason people don't like to talk about how much sensor noise that camera has.



It seems quite usable at 6400, even if you crop images significantly. 25600 seems usable at full frame.


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## Dylan777 (Jul 30, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> 9VIII said:
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> > I think it still has merit as a manual focus body and for the IBIS, If (and that's a big if) it doesn't suffer from high ISO noise because of it.
> ...



With the link you shared(thank you), the 25000iso does look good. However, the light condition in that photo wasn't really considered as "low light". The shutter speed was at 2500ish if remember it correctly.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 30, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


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I agree with that statement. As I recall, some of the 6400 stuff was darker (f/3.5 ish at something like 1/30, but don't quote me on that, I could be way off). 

If you go through dpreview, there is a .zip posted of a series of low-light shots. I got bored playing with other-people's-pictures. I just want my camera haha!


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## bwud (Jul 30, 2015)

I processed some of the files posted to Dropbox by robert98 of dpreview. Impressions are they're more flexible and lower noise than my 5D3, but I'll reserve judgement for when I take delivery. I don't own any of the previous Sony cameras with which to compare, nor any Nikon SLRs.

The shelf is ISO6400, the couch ISO25600. Converted in LR with its default noise reduction. The first is downsampled. The second was meant to be 1:1 crop, but in looking at it now I think it may slightly downsampled. 

Finally, the trees are ISO100, first merely downsampled and second with the following adjustments, default NR, and down sampling: -4 highlights, +4 shadows, -57 whites, -.72 exposure (to match the original), and -43 blacks for a little punch (to my taste).

I appear to have erroneously applied a copyright statement (imported with my defaults), so let it again be known these images belong to robert98.


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## Dylan777 (Jul 30, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Dylan777 said:
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+1 

I'm keeping my fingers cross on a7rii + Canon 135mm. Hoping to get decent AF. Would be awesome to have native 135mm f2 though.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 30, 2015)

I hope these Batis lenses sell well-enough for Zeiss to develop more focal lengths. I have the 2/25 coming, but no interest in the 85. Something medium tele could indeed be awesome.


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## emko (Jul 30, 2015)

any news on a lossless compression? and have they fixed where bulb, and the shutter mode is set to continuous drive, speed-continuous drive, continuous bracketing result in a 12bit file instead of 14bit?

What on Earth is Sony thinking in not fixing these issues? i use bracket sometimes to blend images with high DR why would i want to lose information because i am using bracketing? whats the difference between me just changing the exposure for each shot and getting a 14bit file?


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## msm (Jul 30, 2015)

No news on lossless compression yet. And use single shot bracketing if you are worried about continous bracketing.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 30, 2015)

I'm waiting for a trusted source to post some raw results in low incandescent light. High ISO shots always look fairly good in bright light, its the low light shots that interest me. So far, its about what I expected, ISO 6400 is usable with NR.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 30, 2015)

emko said:


> any news on a lossless compression?



No.



emko said:


> and have they fixed where bulb, and the shutter mode is set to continuous drive, speed-continuous drive, continuous bracketing result in a 12bit file instead of 14bit?



No, bulb, LNR, etc. still drop precision to 12-bit.


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## emko (Jul 31, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> emko said:
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that really sucks, how can a company that makes great sensors not be able to get RAW images from it? is this a deal with Nikon or something? where Nikon can get RAW images for their Cameras ?


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 31, 2015)

I doubt they would enter into an agreement like that, especially given that Sony holds most of the cards in that relationship. Rather I assume they have determined it doesn't matter (and in the preponderance of shooting conditions, it doesn't). Shrug.

Still, there may be an upcoming firmware change to enable lossless raw.


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## emko (Jul 31, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> I doubt they would enter into an agreement like that. Rather I assume they have determined it doesn't matter (and in the preponderance of shooting conditions, it doesn't). Shrug.
> 
> Still may be an upcoming firmware change to enable lossless raw



It does matter and how exactly can they call something RAW when its lossy compressed it would be like calling JPEG raw when its clearly not, yes i do take photos of stars and also i would not want to worry about any artifacts when i don't have to with other camera like a NIKON that can shot RAW using the same damn sensor. Sony is just damn stupid at this point releasing a amazing camera then crippling it with stupidity.

Then you have 12bit BECAUSE you choose to use BULB? really? or any of the other modes other then single shot.

While Nikon lets you choose this option Sony forces you into WHAT they think is good enough.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 31, 2015)

emko said:


> 3kramd5 said:
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> > I doubt they would enter into an agreement like that. Rather I assume they have determined it doesn't matter (and in the preponderance of shooting conditions, it doesn't). Shrug.
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Yes, but not in the preponderance of shooting conditions. I would like the option and I'd probably use it because space isn't in issue.



emko said:


> and how exactly can they call something RAW when its lossy compressed it would be like calling JPEG raw when its clearly not



Not quite; JPEG is debayered. Is there an industry standard definition of how much processing "unraws" something? A better question is: how can they claim 14-bit output?



emko said:


> yes i do take photos of stars and also i would not want to worry about any artifacts when i don't have to with other camera



I've seen plenty of pictures of stars produced with Sony's 11+7 compression and tone curve. I have seen the example by the RAWDIGGER guy of trails with artifacts that he accentuated, but I haven't seen much evidence that it's a pervasive problem, such as "if you shoot stars you're going to get halos." It's an edge case.



emko said:


> Then you have 12bit BECAUSE you choose to use BULB? really? or any of the other modes other then single shot.



I don't claim to understand it. Bulb is annoying, as is silent shutter. I wonder if it's a hardware limitation or a software thing.


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## emko (Jul 31, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> emko said:
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to be honest i probably would be fine with the lossy but i am paying $3,999.99 for something that should have option for RAW 14bit and then having to always think about if there is going to be artifacts in my photos.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 31, 2015)

emko said:


> 3kramd5 said:
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Yup. Canon is getting better IQ on their G3 X than Panasonic or Sony from the same 1 inch sensor. The processor makes a difference.


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## emko (Jul 31, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> emko said:
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that makes no sense unless the cause is the losssy compression how can the RAW data be different? or does the processor adjust the RAW data?


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 31, 2015)

There's also a question of whether someone testing "sensor IQ" has truly isolated the sensor (and for the sake of argument, the associated signal chain). For fixed lens cameras, the answer is obviously: no. Perhaps the canon's optics transmit colors better than the panasonic's and sony's, leading to better measured colors in a sensor analysis.

Shrug.


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## bwud (Jul 31, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'm waiting for a trusted source to post some raw results in low incandescent light. High ISO shots always look fairly good in bright light, its the low light shots that interest me. So far, its about what I expected, ISO 6400 is usable with NR.



Minus the "trusted source," here are a few high iso shots under street lights.

f/4: [email protected]/30, [email protected]/40, [email protected]/60.

Attached is ISO12800. The noise looks really fine and peppery. I would probably clean up easily, but I wouldn't even bother.


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## Dylan777 (Jul 31, 2015)

bwud said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
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> > I'm waiting for a trusted source to post some raw results in low incandescent light. High ISO shots always look fairly good in bright light, its the low light shots that interest me. So far, its about what I expected, ISO 6400 is usable with NR.
> ...



Good enough to sell my a7s once a7r II arrived 

Thanks for sharing


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## bdunbar79 (Jul 31, 2015)

If I can dig up the link I just read a review last night with the A7R II and Canon EF 70-200 f/2.8L II IS auto-focus test. It was, according to the review, miserably slow with the metabones adaptor, which isn't surprising. It was a video with that lens and the 40mm pancakie. Sorry for the premature post; I'm looking for the hyperlink.


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## msm (Jul 31, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> If I can dig up the link I just read a review last night with the A7R II and Canon EF 70-200 f/2.8L II IS auto-focus test. It was, according to the review, miserably slow with the metabones adaptor, which isn't surprising. It was a video with that lens and the 40mm pancakie. Sorry for the premature post; I'm looking for the hyperlink.



This?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cejgMDYI-TU

If so that is neither the metabones adapter, nor the 70-200 IS II. Also seems unclear if he is talking about the bare lens or with the 2x v2 teleconverter. The latter combo isn't exactly stellar on Canon cameras either.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 31, 2015)

dilbert said:


> I suspect that the data presented in "raw files" is more likely to be "half-baked" and that raw sensor values are never seen by the user.



You can take that to the bank. 

There is noise reduction and other things going on before being converted to a raw file. Sony uses lossy compression in their raw files, so they degrade the image some small amount.


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## emko (Jul 31, 2015)

bwud said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
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> > I'm waiting for a trusted source to post some raw results in low incandescent light. High ISO shots always look fairly good in bright light, its the low light shots that interest me. So far, its about what I expected, ISO 6400 is usable with NR.
> ...



what the hell is that really 12800? looks just as good as a 5D3 how on earth can 5DS look so bad in comparison at high ISO?


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## bdunbar79 (Aug 1, 2015)

msm said:


> bdunbar79 said:
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> > If I can dig up the link I just read a review last night with the A7R II and Canon EF 70-200 f/2.8L II IS auto-focus test. It was, according to the review, miserably slow with the metabones adaptor, which isn't surprising. It was a video with that lens and the 40mm pancakie. Sorry for the premature post; I'm looking for the hyperlink.
> ...



You're absolutely right. I got a information-loaded email from an individual who is testing several adapters on several MILC. Sorry I should have actually watched the video first. In the A7R II that is NOT the case. My apologies.


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## Neutral (Aug 1, 2015)

Interesting notes from EOSHD review of a7rII :
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http://www.eoshd.com/2015/07/hands-on-with-the-sony-a7r-ii/

*It looks significantly less noisy at first glance than the Canon 5DS*.

We had the *Sony 55mm F1.8 FE *on the camera. With this *AF was enormously impressive*. There’s been a big leap here for the A7R II over previous Sony cameras. *AF object tracking is massively more sophisticated and getting much closer to a flagship pro DSLR like the 1D X.
*

*The camera is now able to take power from a the USB port whilst recording*. This means *you can connect a massive USB power cell (20,000mha) and have it act like a V-lock battery on your rig.* It also mean you can carry fewer Sony batteries, even jettison the battery grip and charge your camera via a phone top up power bank during down time on set, or even during a shot from the cell Velcro’ed to your rig.

*The zoomed focus assist can be toggled during a shot whilst recording 4K, which is something the Canon 1D C doesn’t allow*. I find this endlessly useful in the real world and prefer it to peaking. The A7R II does have peaking but I’ll wait to the final production unit to try it out.
--------------- 

I myself also had quick look at some A7RII high ISO RAW samples posted around and it seems that a7rII is on par with high ISO performance of Canon 1DX at ISO 6400 and 12800
When I get my own a7RII first thing that I will do is comparison of AF (with Sony native lenses) and high ISO performance between my 1DX and a7RII. Will be interesting to see DXO results when available
Considering all above, I have a feeling that a7RII will be able to replace 1Dx for most of my needs and only remaining application for 1DX will be actions/sport/fashion where long (above 100mm) L tele lenses are required.

Could be very handy for travels, had several occasions when had serious difficulties passing on board due to excessive hand baggage weight because of heavy Canon 1DX and Canon lenses that I wanted to be with me during travels.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 1, 2015)

Neutral said:


> Considering all above, I have a feeling that a7RII will be able to replace 1Dx for most of my needs and only remaining application for 1DX will be actions/sport/fashion where long (above 100mm) L tele lenses are required.



Or shooting in weather.


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## Neutral (Aug 1, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Neutral said:
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> > Considering all above, I have a feeling that a7RII will be able to replace 1Dx for most of my needs and only remaining application for 1DX will be actions/sport/fashion where long (above 100mm) L tele lenses are required.
> ...



Agree, so far Sony has nothing that could compete with 1DX in this respect.

Interested to see what Sony would offer with rumored A9 which expected to be targeted for professional users.
Technically a7rII has surpassed my expectations , I thought that this set of features and performance level is reserved for a9, and a7rII would be basically a7R with IBIS and slightly better AF , but seeing what was done with a7rII I would not be surprised to see something really exciting with A9. May be they will announce it after Canon announce 1DXm2, the same as was done with Canon 5DS and 5DsR.
Now Sony as system has best and widest set of primes (both native lenses and best primes from Canon/Nikon/ Zeiss etc.). 
Sony is still behind Canon and Nikon with zoom lenses and long primes and Flash system, possibly they will do something competitive in this area in couple of years.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 2, 2015)

I will be surprised if Sony makes a move on the pro-level market in the near term. They don't have nearly the infrastructure (lens system, flash system, etc). Sure, the zeiss offerings may be compelling (I'll get the 2/25), but having a mixed bag of manufacturers makes service ponderous.

I think a7r II is the rumored a9. But who knows?


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 3, 2015)

emko said:


> yes i do take photos of stars



http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54831980

Works for me!


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## RGF (Aug 4, 2015)

Neutral said:


> Interesting notes from EOSHD review of a7rII :
> -----------------
> http://www.eoshd.com/2015/07/hands-on-with-the-sony-a7r-ii/
> 
> ...



Have you used an adapter and Canon Lenses (even in MF).

I tried the A7R can could not zoom in live view. Not sure if this was my error or a limitation of the camera. 
Do you know if this can be done w/ adapters and canon (or other) lenses?


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## raptor3x (Aug 4, 2015)

RGF said:


> Neutral said:
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> > Interesting notes from EOSHD review of a7rII :
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You have to turn the lens to MF to allow focus magnification with an adapted lens. If you try it with AF switched on it will give some message about being unsupported or something like that.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 4, 2015)

raptor3x said:


> You have to turn the lens to MF to allow focus magnification with an adapted lens. If you try it with AF switched on it will give some message about being unsupported or something like that.



I can't quite remember since I didn't use the A7R much. Thought it was C1 to toggle various zoom levels, but you may be right about disabling AF first. My A7Rii should arrive in two days, so I'll try on the new platform.


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## Neutral (Aug 4, 2015)

RGF said:


> Neutral said:
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It does this easily. 
As far as I remember it was initially C1 button to turn on magnification in manual zoom with 3d party lenses. With native lenses this is automatic. Then later I did all buttons reassignment to be convinient to me and make things more easy, so rarely need to open menu to change settings.
Much more easy than with 1dx.
Initially I bought a7r to be as compact digital back for Canon TSE17 and 24-70 F/2.8L m2.
Using Metabone III adaptor for this.
Later started buying native lenses.
Last zeiss 35mm f1.4 and especially new 90mm macro are just amazing.

All worked very well with Canon lenses, ironically enough manual focus with canon lenses is much more easy and convinient on Sony body than on Canon.
Regards.


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## benperrin (Aug 5, 2015)

Neutral said:


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The more I'm hearing about this camera the less excited I am about the AF abilities. I've heard that certain modes like Eye AF and spot AF are disabled with an adapter, that the AF hunts when shooting in portrait mode (maybe the AF points aren't cross type?). It's seeming more like the AF abilities of a 300d or similar and not even close to the abilities of a modern dslr. 

The USB charging capability is nice but kind of ruins the idea of having a smaller and lighter camera. Having said all that I have pre-ordered the camera and expect to get some fantastic images with it. If it turns out that it's not good for portraits or moving objects, I'll just go back to my dslr for those things. For landscape and product photography though I think it's going to be great. I'm looking forward to trying something new with manual focus being made more usable.

I'm really hoping it arrives before I leave as I've planned a trip on the 17th and I was told it was coming late July. The whole point of the trip is photography and I even tried to plan it according to the lunar phase.


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## benperrin (Aug 5, 2015)

I do have a rather stupid question though that I think I know the answer to but would like to seek clarification. In a dslr we have a mirror lockup function with the intention being that we can minimise vibrations with this. Since the a7rii obviously doesn't have a mirror does that mean that vibration should be the same as a dslr in mirror lockup mode? I heard that the a7r had issues with this and that they tried to fix it with the a7rii. Also would using the silent mode (digital first curtain or whatever they call it) help as then only the rear curtain would be a factor (in my limited understanding) and rolling shutter shouldn't be an issue with a static landscape shot on a tripod. If anyone has any resources that could answer this question please let me know.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 5, 2015)

benperrin said:


> Neutral said:
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If that is the ONLY reason you get into Sony FF mirrorless, so you can shoot with Canon lenses and expect same AF speed etc..,you might as well cancel it now.

Stay with native lenses. Besides, you don't really need all native lenses. My expectation for Batis 25 & 85mm is high. Add Sony/Zeiss FE 16-35 you're done with Sony mirrorless. This combo would be enough everyday shooting to landscape. 

I plan to sell my FE28mm and FE55mm once the Batis 25 & 85mm arrived.


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## benperrin (Aug 5, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> If that is the ONLY reason you get into Sony FF mirrorless, so you can shoot with Canon lenses and expect same AF speed etc..,you might as well cancel it now.
> 
> Stay with native lenses. Besides, you don't really need all native lenses. My expectation for Batis 25 & 85mm is high. Add Sony/Zeiss FE 16-35 you're done with Sony mirrorless. This combo would be enough everyday shooting to landscape.
> 
> I plan to sell my FE28mm and FE55mm once the Batis 25 & 85mm arrived.



No, I plan on only really using it for landscape and product photography with Canon lenses. I certainly wasn't expecting it to be great with adapted lenses but I was hoping to experiment with focus peaking. I may purchase some native lenses in the future but at this stage it's just an addition to my Canon kit and I'll wait to see what Canon comes up with in the next year before making a decision on lenses. In my limited research though some of the Zeiss lenses do look interesting.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 5, 2015)

Yet another push test, comparing the A7R, A7R2, and 5DSR.
http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2015/08/sony-a7rii-compared-with-sony-a7r-and-canon-5dsr/

I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Methodology, as I understand it:
(1) use rawdigger to examine histogram. Set equal ISO and apertures, vary shutter speed to ETTR.
(2) use shutter speed to back off from ETTR by 6 stops.
(3) lift exposure and shadows back up.

A cursory glance suggests the A7R2 trounces both, but if you inspect the EXIF you'll note that the A7R2 image had more than twice the exposure (1/1000s vs 1/2500s), yet the brightness is not significantly different. 

My first thought is that the ISO rating on the A7R2 is out of bed, hence requiring twice the exposure time. If so, I wonder if that difference exists throughout the entire ISO range (such that for example 25600 on the 2 is equivalent to 12800 on the A7R, etc).


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## benperrin (Aug 5, 2015)

dilbert said:


> benperrin said:
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> > I do have a rather stupid question though that I think I know the answer to but would like to seek clarification. In a dslr we have a mirror lockup function with the intention being that we can minimise vibrations with this. Since the a7rii obviously doesn't have a mirror does that mean that vibration should be the same as a dslr in mirror lockup mode? I heard that the a7r had issues with this and that they tried to fix it with the a7rii. Also would using the silent mode (digital first curtain or whatever they call it) help as then only the rear curtain would be a factor (in my limited understanding) and rolling shutter shouldn't be an issue with a static landscape shot on a tripod. If anyone has any resources that could answer this question please let me know.
> ...


Yes, I've heard this also. I guess my question is: Is normal remote triggering of the a7rii the same as something like the 5dsr in mirror lockup mode in terms of vibrations? If the difference is negligible all is well. In fact it's better not to have to use mirror lockup mode.


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## benperrin (Aug 5, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Yet another push test, comparing the A7R, A7R2, and 5DSR.
> http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2015/08/sony-a7rii-compared-with-sony-a7r-and-canon-5dsr/
> 
> I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Methodology, as I understand it:
> ...


Thanks for the link. It's nice to know that it can be pushed if needed but a 6 stop or even 3 stop push is unlikely to happen for my workflow. It's time to bracket when it gets that bad. Of course it's great news for others who will be wanting to push the shadows really far in post. Did you order one yet? If so have you got it?


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 5, 2015)

Did I order one: yes
Have I received it yet: no. However my order status (bhphoto) shows it as in stock with my order sent to the warehouse, so I assume I'll receive it this week.


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## benperrin (Aug 5, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Did I order one: yes
> Have I received it yet: no. However my order status (bhphoto) shows it as in stock with my order sent to the warehouse, so I assume I'll receive it this week.


Wow. So exciting! I hope that I won't be too far behind. Enjoy playing with your new toy.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 5, 2015)

benperrin said:


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Thanks.

"Say hello to my little friend!"


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## Dylan777 (Aug 5, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


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Just check my order through BH, the status has changed from on Pre-order to....

crossing my fingers to receive my new toy this week


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## deleteme (Aug 5, 2015)

benperrin said:


> I certainly wasn't expecting it to be great with adapted lenses but I was hoping to experiment with focus peaking.



This is interesting as many users across the net seem to wax rhapsodic about using alt lenses on Sony and other ML bodies. Endless declarations of optical goodness.
I like the idea of using adapted lenses but the high res sensor of the A7RII will be unkind to out of tolerance adapter and lens combos.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 5, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


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Have you been charged yet? I have not, and in my experience BH charges the night before they ship. Makes me wonder.


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## RGF (Aug 5, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> raptor3x said:
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> > You have to turn the lens to MF to allow focus magnification with an adapted lens. If you try it with AF switched on it will give some message about being unsupported or something like that.
> ...



Please let me know how it goes. Also which adapter do you have?


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## xps (Aug 5, 2015)

I was able to see the end of an Sony seller meeting, when I picked up my son in law (who is working for this company). I saw some actual comparison shots with the 5DIII/5DS and the 7R/7RII. Yes, the 7rII shots look wonderful, but I do not know, if they were manipulated/reworked.
But what I can say, that the shots, they took on the meeting with the Zeiss Batis wideangle lens are excepionally good. Two simultaniously taken pictures of my son.
They showed them on two UHD monitors and there is some diffenence in betweeen the 7R and 7RII.


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## emko (Aug 5, 2015)

Shooting in bulb,Silent Shooting,Long Exposure NR,Continuous Shooting,Continuous Shooting Bracketing all are 12bit files everything else is what 13bit what on Earth is wrong with Sony? how exactly can Nikon using a SONY sensor do 14bit in every shooting mode? plus Nikon manages to do RAW loseless, i would think SONY would know how to work with a SENSOR they created but i guess not hopefully the A7RIII will be a proper camera.


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## that1guyy (Aug 5, 2015)

When do you guys think the price is going to drop for this camera? I really want it but its just too expensive. The lenses are all expensive too. I think a huge win for Sony adoption may come when Sigma and Tamron start making lenses for FE. Hopefully that happens soon.


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## Random Orbits (Aug 5, 2015)

dilbert said:


> emko said:
> 
> 
> > Shooting in bulb,Silent Shooting,Long Exposure NR,Continuous Shooting,Continuous Shooting Bracketing all are 12bit files everything else is what 13bit what on Earth is wrong with Sony? how exactly can Nikon using a SONY sensor do 14bit in every shooting mode? plus Nikon manages to do RAW loseless, i would think SONY would know how to work with a SENSOR they created but i guess not hopefully the A7RIII will be a proper camera.
> ...



The A7RIII will be the update to the A7RII. With short life cycles, these products are made to be replaced. The replacement is the upgrade.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 5, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Yes, my american express was charged


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## tcmatthews (Aug 5, 2015)

benperrin said:


> I do have a rather stupid question though that I think I know the answer to but would like to seek clarification. In a dslr we have a mirror lockup function with the intention being that we can minimise vibrations with this. Since the a7rii obviously doesn't have a mirror does that mean that vibration should be the same as a dslr in mirror lockup mode? I heard that the a7r had issues with this and that they tried to fix it with the a7rii. Also would using the silent mode (digital first curtain or whatever they call it) help as then only the rear curtain would be a factor (in my limited understanding) and rolling shutter shouldn't be an issue with a static landscape shot on a tripod. If anyone has any resources that could answer this question please let me know.



It has been shown in test that Canon's Electronic First Curtain Shutter (EFCS) (Live View Silent Shutter Mode 2) has even less vibration than mirror lockup. The only time I use mirror lockup is when I need to have major stability with a flash mode that is disabled in that mode of Live View. Basically every landscape shot sense the 60D came out has been made in Live View 

That said my Nex6 and A7II both have EFCS the fact the A7r did not is one of the reasons I would not buy one. So the A7rII should be much better than the A7r both with is reworked shutter and EFCS. 

In normal mode of a DSLR the shutter is actuated twice. Once at the start of the exposure one and the end. The A7r worked this way all the time it would close the shutter to start exposure then open it again to expose then close again to end exposure. This can cause the camera to vibrate slightly or in the A7r case noticeably. With EFCS there is no source of vibration until the shutter closes to end the exposure.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 5, 2015)

RGF said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > raptor3x said:
> ...



Will do. Metabones mk IV.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 5, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



Me too, three hours ago. Hoping for amazing skies tomorrow night  Enjoy!


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## Dylan777 (Aug 5, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...


I selected FREE shipping, so my won't arrive until end of the week. Maybe next Monday.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 5, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Me too, three hours ago. Hoping for amazing skies tomorrow night  Enjoy!
> ...



I figured 30 bucks is in the noise relative to the camera, so why wait


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## psolberg (Aug 5, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Yet another push test, comparing the A7R, A7R2, and 5DSR.
> http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2015/08/sony-a7rii-compared-with-sony-a7r-and-canon-5dsr/
> 
> I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Methodology, as I understand it:
> ...


manufacturer's ISO's never agree. we've seen this time and time again from endless comparisons. I recall the 5DMKIII consistently "overstating" the ISO it was shooting at vs the D800 meaning that what to my eyes looked like the same exposure was almost a stop higher in ISO "branding" for canon. I'm not sure if this is intentional (it would make canon look better to tell you that your ISO 800 is labeled as 1600) but I just dismissed it as differences in how they measure things. Ultimately I doubt anybody has the equipment required to really measure each camera against a standardized target using a sensor not made by either company that is know to be accurate.

To really grasp the differences in DR and the problems canon has with shadows, one simply needs to shoot both for an extended period of time as I have. Then you realize the sony/nikon sensors always push the shadows beyond your expectations, while the canon sensors choke with noise and bands. 

These comparisons simply agree with the experiences of many, and my own so they are not surprising to see them again, in particular given we already knew the 5Ds was nothing more than a scaled up old sensor aimed at just giving canon a big MP number, while sony looked at a number aimed at achieving the best noise to detail compromise as well as video recording.

in terms of video, this was a good review
https://www.cinema5d.com/sony-a7rii-review-first-impressions-footage/



> I can easily say that this is currently the best photo camera that shoots video in the market. As a documentary shooter





> -Sell your A7s (or any other photo camera that shoots video you currently have)
> – Buy the new Sony A7rII ….



off course they are not even looking at the 5Ds which is essentially 2012 junk video wise and nobody in their right mind would even use it for that purpose.

Overall seems sony went for the most versatile sensor ever designed. Amazing DR for stills, best in class video implementation (note I say class because off course there are better video cameras out there that cost ridiculous amounts). And at ~40MP it doesn't really give up anything for the dedicated stills photographer IF sony delivers a firmware update to give people lossless compressed raws. Alternatively, nikon is almost certainly going to use the same sensor on the D900 or whatever, and that will likely let us see the true potential of the sony sensor.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 5, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



True, I still need some BW filters for my Batis lenses ;D

just received shipping notice from BH. Expected delivery is Monday :-[


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 5, 2015)

psolberg said:


> me said:
> 
> 
> > My first thought is that the ISO rating on the A7R2 is out of bed, hence requiring twice the exposure time.
> ...



Sure, though I don't recall it being this stark between version 1 and version 2 of a camera within the same line. A7R in this test is 1/2500, A7Rii is 1/1000, both at the same aperture and shutter speed. The light likely changed a bit, but more than a stop? Hmm.



Dylan777 said:


> True, I still need some BW filters for my Batis lenses ;D



I'm waiting for the 2/25 to show up on Amazon and will need a 6-stop ND and a CPL. I wish it were a 77mm... BAH!



Dylan777 said:


> just received shipping notice from BH. Expected delivery is Monday :-[



Doh! I'll be sure to get my 30 bucks worth this weekend, then 
I still haven't received shipping notice, but I suppose those which are going to the airport will be picked up at a different time. *Maspeth, NY, United States 08/05/2015 11:45 A.M. Package is in transit to a UPS facility * 8)


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## sdsr (Aug 5, 2015)

Normalnorm said:


> benperrin said:
> 
> 
> > I certainly wasn't expecting it to be great with adapted lenses but I was hoping to experiment with focus peaking.
> ...



I suspect that this problem is overstated. I use a wide range of old MF lenses on my a7r (and a7s) using mostly inexpensive adapters with excellent results (one or two of the lenses aren't any good, but that has nothing to do with the adapter; and one or two of the adapters aren't any good, which has nothing to do with the lenses - and they're easily enough replaced). Images taken with my Canon lenses via a Metabones adapter look great too. I don't expect the rather trivial resolution difference between the a7r and a7rII to alter any of this.


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## sdsr (Aug 5, 2015)

that1guyy said:


> When do you guys think the price is going to drop for this camera? I really want it but its just too expensive. The lenses are all expensive too. I think a huge win for Sony adoption may come when Sigma and Tamron start making lenses for FE. Hopefully that happens soon.



This may be of no use to you at all, but if you're willing to focus manually (which is vastly easier to do on a mirrorless camera than a dslr), there's a vast array of old manual lenses you can use, some of which are superb and inexpensive; plus, you can use any Canon lenses you have (some of which may AF really well and fast on the a7rII if reports are correct).


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 5, 2015)

sdsr said:


> Normalnorm said:
> 
> 
> > benperrin said:
> ...



Yah. Electronics are one thing, but machining tight tolerances isn't that difficult, and on simple geometry it isn't that expensive.


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## charlymann (Aug 5, 2015)

I have talked to several people who have the A7rii in England and it still seems that even with the Metabones IV that Canon glass in many circumstances will be slow to find focus. I also have heard about a lot of jello-judder problems when panning in 4K video. I would love the camera if these problems could be solved - though I would also prefer it shoot faster than 5fps.


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## Ewinter (Aug 5, 2015)

I've not had time to test in poor light, but on the face of things:

The 16-35 and 17-40 seem to focus at least as fast as a 5d III

The 24mm 1.4 II seems quick but not as fast as on a 1dx. But definitely more accurate off centre. 

Similar experience with the 35 art.

85 1.2 ii is pretty nippy considering it's the 85 1.2. It does hunt on low contrast, but nothing that can't be quickly dialled in with mf override then quickly tap af to lock.
It also seems more accurate than the 1dx off centre, probably due to smaller focus points. This makes portrait much easier as the 1dx always seems to get eyelashes to me, not the eyeball. (being really fussy here)

The 70-200 II IS seems to hunt more than anything else. Frequently needs help with getting in to the ball park, then sometimes won't lock. (just thought I may want to try it with IS off). When it does lock, it's damn accurate. 

100-400 II occasionally hunts too when going from mfd to far away targets, but once in the ballpark seems snappy. Iq with this combo is hilarious. 

Overall, it seems amazing with primes shorter than 100mm.
I'm very happy with it, and is definitely in a different league to what they've done so far. iq is astonishing and the high iso was a pleasant surprise. 
I've yet to shoot it in nightclub lighting (the a7s was hopeless at finding lock in this situation) but I'm much happier with it already. I'm missing less shots than I was with the 1dx, but with the size of the RAW, it pays to be a bit more conservative


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## sdsr (Aug 5, 2015)

charlymann said:


> I have talked to several people who have the A7rii in England and it still seems that even with the Metabones IV that Canon glass in many circumstances will be slow to find focus. I also have heard about a lot of jello-judder problems when panning in 4K video. I would love the camera if these problems could be solved - though I would also prefer it shoot faster than 5fps.



And presumably (?) there will still be plenty of Canon EF lenses that won't AF at all; for them, speed improvements are irrelevant (you still get EXIF information and in-camera aperture control with such lenses, though).


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## Ewinter (Aug 5, 2015)

sdsr said:


> charlymann said:
> 
> 
> > I have talked to several people who have the A7rii in England and it still seems that even with the Metabones IV that Canon glass in many circumstances will be slow to find focus. I also have heard about a lot of jello-judder problems when panning in 4K video. I would love the camera if these problems could be solved - though I would also prefer it shoot faster than 5fps.
> ...



I couldn't get the 50 1.4 or the 1.8 ii to lock at all in af. They were fast but just wouldn't lock; they hunt forever.
I haven't tried the stm though - I'm very interested to see if that works because I can't afford the 55 zeiss and don't have a small 50


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## Dylan777 (Aug 5, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> just received shipping notice from BH. Expected delivery is Monday :-[



Doh! I'll be sure to get my 30 bucks worth this weekend, then 
I still haven't received shipping notice, but I suppose those which are going to the airport will be picked up at a different time. *Maspeth, NY, United States 08/05/2015 11:45 A.M. Package is in transit to a UPS facility * 8)
[/quote]

Since you going to receive a7rii before me, make sure to post some real low light shots at 6400ISO - 12000ISO ;D


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## emko (Aug 5, 2015)

dilbert said:


> emko said:
> 
> 
> > Shooting in bulb,Silent Shooting,Long Exposure NR,Continuous Shooting,Continuous Shooting Bracketing all are 12bit files everything else is what 13bit what on Earth is wrong with Sony? how exactly can Nikon using a SONY sensor do 14bit in every shooting mode? plus Nikon manages to do RAW loseless, i would think SONY would know how to work with a SENSOR they created but i guess not hopefully the A7RIII will be a proper camera.
> ...



sorry i don't believe the camera is capable of 14bit why else would the camera drop to 12bit in almost every shooting mode? it has to be a hardware limiting factor.


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## sdsr (Aug 5, 2015)

Ewinter said:


> sdsr said:
> 
> 
> > charlymann said:
> ...



You've probably noticed that the list of lenses Metabones claims will have AF via their adapters is rather short:

http://www.metabones.com/products/details/MB-EF-E-BT4

Neither of your Canon 50mm lenses is on the list. It seems odd to me that the 100mm macro is on it, but not the 100mm L macro. In my experience, the Mk III adapter on a7r/a7s/a6000 provides AF for more lenses than they listed for that adapter (typically, newer lenses; it works fine on my 10-18mm EF-S, so maybe it will work with the new 50mm STM too), but it certainly doesn't for my 50mm 1.4 or 100mm L. You presumably won't find it helpful that it does provide AF for the 50mm L; Steve Huff reports that it's faster and more accurate on the a7rII than it is on Canon bodies (I use the old, less expensive, MF-only FD 50mm L, so for me it's a non-issue). Their list is based on testing on pre-a7rII bodies, of course, but it doesn't seem likely that it would be any different with the a7rII. I hope I'm wrong!


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 5, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> Since you going to receive a7rii before me, make sure to post some real low light shots at 6400ISO - 12000ISO ;D



I'll do what I can!



sdsr said:


> You've probably noticed that the list of lenses Metabones claims will have AF via their adapters is rather short:
> 
> http://www.metabones.com/products/details/MB-EF-E-BT4
> 
> Neither of your Canon 50mm lenses is on the list. It seems odd to me that the 100mm macro is on it, but not the 100mm L macro.



That's a list of what has been *tested*, not a comprehensive list of what will *work*.

Note ewinter said "The 16-35 [will] focus at least as fast as a 5d III," and that neither 16-35 is on the list.


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## Ewinter (Aug 5, 2015)

sdsr said:


> Ewinter said:
> 
> 
> > sdsr said:
> ...


I've got the 50 Art, which I haven't tried. Mostly because 50mm is boring for me- I just don't like the focal length. For professional work, I'm happy to use a lens of that size. But for walking around, I want something smaller.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 6, 2015)

A7r II with Canon 24-70 II from LensRental. Looks really good. I wish for same AF speed with Canon 135mm.

https://vimeo.com/135463206

Lensrentals seems to have positive feedback:
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/08/sony-a7r-ii-a-brief-review


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## benperrin (Aug 6, 2015)

tcmatthews said:


> It has been shown in test that Canon's Electronic First Curtain Shutter (EFCS) (Live View Silent Shutter Mode 2) has even less vibration than mirror lockup. The only time I use mirror lockup is when I need to have major stability with a flash mode that is disabled in that mode of Live View. Basically every landscape shot sense the 60D came out has been made in Live View
> 
> That said my Nex6 and A7II both have EFCS the fact the A7r did not is one of the reasons I would not buy one. So the A7rII should be much better than the A7r both with is reworked shutter and EFCS.
> 
> In normal mode of a DSLR the shutter is actuated twice. Once at the start of the exposure one and the end. The A7r worked this way all the time it would close the shutter to start exposure then open it again to expose then close again to end exposure. This can cause the camera to vibrate slightly or in the A7r case noticeably. With EFCS there is no source of vibration until the shutter closes to end the exposure.


Thanks for your response. That's what I thought would be the case. I'll do some tests when I get the camera to determine the difference in vibration between normal front and rear curtain shooting and electronic front curtain. At the very least though not having to use mirror lockup means one step removed from the workflow so that's a good thing.


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## benperrin (Aug 6, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> A7r II with Canon 24-70 II from LensRental. Looks really good. I wish for same AF speed with Canon 135mm.
> 
> https://vimeo.com/135463206
> 
> ...


That test actually looks promising. Thanks for the link Dylan!


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## yorgasor (Aug 6, 2015)

sdsr said:


> that1guyy said:
> 
> 
> > When do you guys think the price is going to drop for this camera? I really want it but its just too expensive. The lenses are all expensive too. I think a huge win for Sony adoption may come when Sigma and Tamron start making lenses for FE. Hopefully that happens soon.
> ...



I think this is what interests me the most with the A7rII. I have an excellent collection of Nikon prime AIS lenses that I love to shoot with. The trick is getting a DSLR that does a really nice job of using them. I was able to hack a Canon split prism screen onto a Nikon D3s, and that was fun to shoot with, but it is only 12MP. To heck with the fancy AF adapters, I just want to go out and shoot the A7RII with a small bag of primes!


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## RGF (Aug 6, 2015)

sdsr said:


> Ewinter said:
> 
> 
> > sdsr said:
> ...



Does that mean you can not AF or is some other functions limited also?


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## RGF (Aug 6, 2015)

benperrin said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > A7r II with Canon 24-70 II from LensRental. Looks really good. I wish for same AF speed with Canon 135mm.
> ...


+1


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## RGF (Aug 6, 2015)

yorgasor said:


> sdsr said:
> 
> 
> > that1guyy said:
> ...



How do you connect the lens to the A7R II without an adapter - or which non-fancy adapter do you use?

Does magnification in LV work? Can you move the point around? I failed (perhaps do to my lack of knowledge) to be able to do this with the A7R and Canon lens on a meatiness adapter (lens could only be MF, since AF was not supported).


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## Dylan777 (Aug 6, 2015)

Better hurry before it gone ;D

$6K for a7rII = what planet does this alien came from? More likely to be below $3k within 6months.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131572371772?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D%26_mPrRngCbx%3D1%26_udlo%3D%26_udhi%3D%26_sop%3D12%26_fpos%3D%26_fspt%3D1%26_sadis%3D%26LH_CAds%3D%26rmvSB%3Dtrue%26_nkw%3D131572371772%26_rdc%3D1


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 6, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> Better hurry before it gone ;D
> 
> $6K for a7rII = what planet does this alien came from?



Or just go to best buy 

Here's a nice review to whet your appetite 

http://www.alinpopescu.eu/blog/first-impressions-review-of-a-detail-monster-camera-the-sony-a7r-ii/


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## Dylan777 (Aug 6, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Better hurry before it gone ;D
> ...



Cool, looks to be ok up 6400ISO. Might keep my little a7s for cleaner 12800ISO.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 6, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Better hurry before it gone ;D
> ...



I think it silly. a7rIII is more likely be out 2-3yrs from now


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 6, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3884362

Jim Kasson, one of the smartest guys out there analyzing the A7 sensors, did an initial engineering DR analysis of his. It's got some strange bumps he tries to explain.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 6, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



I'm more hand-on type a guy = touch, feel, shoot and review raw files. 

Can't trust everything on the internet  

Did you get your camera yet?


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 7, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



Yah. I am currently arguing with it. My 50f1.4 won't AF (it just hunts back and forth). Single point AF works at the center with my 16-35f4, but not so much with other points. Can't get it to connect to my phone for remote control or my MacBook via USB to set it up for wifi.


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## benperrin (Aug 7, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Yah. I am currently arguing with it. My 50f1.4 won't AF (it just hunts back and forth). Single point AF works at the center with my 16-35f4, but not so much with other points. Can't get it to connect to my phone for remote control or my MacBook via USB to set it up for wifi.



I may hate you right now! ;D


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## bwud (Aug 7, 2015)

I am new to the a7 series. Not that anyone should have to suffer my mug at 40+ MP, here's a test shot in the quintessential backlit room (well, not entirely, but you get the idea).

f/4, 1/640, 1600ISO (auto)

1) Default LR (CC) conversion,
2) What I'd call a normal process, and
3) way overdone (highlights crushed and shadows pushed)
4) raw

If I can figure out how to use it, I'll try to take some low-light stuff. Currently focus peaking isn't working, I think I may need to do something to the adapter...


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## Dylan777 (Aug 7, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...


What adapter version do you use?

Take a short break. Go out take some photos with native lenses .


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## bwud (Aug 7, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



I have the non-T metabones IV. I was tyeballing that zeiss25 f/2, but it feels really awkward with my 16-35. Maybe the Sony 28 is a better bet.

I don't have native lenses yet 

Peeking works, but I don't believe it. I can turn the camera 45 degrees to a wall, focus at one end at 1.4, and it lights up the whole wall . Having zoom in the EVF is quite nice, however. That is a great feature.


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## bwud (Aug 7, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> Take a short break. Go out take some photos with native lenses .



I'm stuck around the house tonight being dad, so I can only do so much.

Fairly low light. SOOC followed by a minor edit. Not crazy about the color, have to profile it. EXIF should be intact but it's ISO1600 at 1/30 f/1.4. 

RAW if anyone cares: https://www.dropbox.com/s/apyvi4jdbrq3p3e/MAB-20150806-0056.ARW?dl=0


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 7, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> RGF said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Okay, what Raptor said is correct. It certainly does not work with AF enabled, and disabling AF on the camera body doesn't do the trick (in fact even if that toggle is set to MF, it will still AF if the lens has it enabled). You have to flick the switch on the lens body, the Magnify operates properly.

This is with the Metabones is in "green mode". I find their documentation very confusing, but MAYBE in advanced mode you can zoom while AF is enabled ("Auto magnify manual focus assist," though that allegedly means "Auto-Magnify MF Assist while turning the focusing ring"). I'll give it a shot anyway.

I can not for the life of me tell if IBIS is working. I haven't shot any long focal lengths yet, but it doesn't have that "everything slows down" look you get when enabling lens-based IS.


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## raptor3x (Aug 7, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> I can not for the life of me tell if IBIS is working. I haven't shot any long focal lengths yet, but it doesn't have that "everything slows down" look you get when enabling lens-based IS.



Easy way to tell if the IBIS is working is look through the EVF and rotate the camera about the lens' optical axis back and forth. If IBIS is working the picture will seem steady, if not then there's some setting you need to adjust.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 8, 2015)

raptor3x said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > I can not for the life of me tell if IBIS is working. I haven't shot any long focal lengths yet, but it doesn't have that "everything slows down" look you get when enabling lens-based IS.
> ...



Negative.
I went to the menu, disabled IBIS, and reenabled it. Or tried too. It said my lens isn't supported. Oh well.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 8, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> raptor3x said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...


I rented fe 16-35mm for my recent trip to Hawaii. With over 200 shots with my a7s, never feel the IQ is below canon f4 IS. I have this lens in my bh account. Will more likely buy it after some testing a7rii with fe55.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 8, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > raptor3x said:
> ...



Hmmmm. I wonder how it compares to the batis.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 8, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



2cents: Batis will have upper hand in term of IQ.


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## Neutral (Aug 8, 2015)

I was doing some tests with S-Log2 and S-Gamut picture profiles for video on my A7S and decided to try it with normal photo. 
I was very surprised to see that it is also work for RAW files. 
Normally picture profiles do not have any effect on RAW files on Canon camera– but for Sony with Sony S-Log2 and S- Gamut this is different.

Therefore, there is extremely interesting question – is Sony for S-Log2 does logarithmic analog signal compression before chip ADC or just manipulates digital output of ADC?
Could not find any information so far anywhere which could provide answer to this question. 
If Sony with S-Log2 profile manipulates analog signal before ADC (to fit real scene high DR to ADC min –max input values) than this could be the answer why Sony declared A7S DR to be more than 14 stops.

Moreover, this could be the key to single shot HDR using Sony A7S or A7RII
A7RII, which also has S-Log2 profile, and S-Log2 base ISO is 800 for A7R compared to ISO3200 for A7S.

I did some test shots using normal shooting (PP disabled) and PP profile using S-Log2 and S-Gamut and there are some interesting things.
1. With the fixed Aperture, and fixed ISO3200 normal RAW shot (no PP applied) require at least twice less exposure (twice faster shutter speed) to have approximately the same histogram right side level (and overall brightness) as for shot with S-Log2 profile.
So S-Log2 shot is exposed twice more and still has no highlights clipping.
2. When both images are normalized in LR to the same brightness impression that RAW file taken using S-Log2 profile has much better gradation in highlights and in general looks more natural.

My impression after these tests is that S-Log2 compression is done on analog signal before ADC and these results in more reach resulting image but not sure that this could be true.
Possible this is due to more scene DR being compressed to fit the ADC input signal range and these results in more details and finer gradations in image highlight areas.

Not have much time now to spend more on these tests and more research regarding subject, possibly some time later. 
Would be interesting if someone who also has A7S or already got his a7RII would try the same and share his observations.
Seems that this could provide better real scene DR mapping to the camera output DR range.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 8, 2015)

S-Log2 indeed requires different metering (and thus exposure). See:

From http://www.xdcam-user.com/2014/08/exposing-and-using-slog2-on-the-sony-a7s-part-one-gamma-and-exposure/

I will try to repeat your experiment this afternoon.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 8, 2015)

Neutral said:


> Not have much time now to spend more on these tests and more research regarding subject, possibly some time later.
> Would be interesting if someone who also has A7S or already got his a7RII would try the same and share his observations.
> Seems that this could provide better real scene DR mapping to the camera output DR range.



At ISO800 (base for s-log2), just eyeballing the in camera histogram, not shooting on a tripod, etc. (i.e. entirely non-scientific), it took .8 seconds at a fixed aperture to yield roughly the same exposure as 1/10 with linear encoding. Obviously I was off by a bit, so maybe 4:1 not 8:1?

I can't tell if one has an advantage over the other from a post-processing standpoint.


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## bwud (Aug 8, 2015)

This wasn't a "let's see what test I can manufacture" situation. Rather, I haven't yet figured out how to meter and frame high contrast scenes (which do a number on the display... I think OVF still wins here) with the A7R ii, and I hosed this one substantially. Not a masterpiece by any stretch of the imagination, but that's pretty handy.


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## bwud (Aug 9, 2015)

bwud said:


> This wasn't a "let's see what test I can manufacture" situation. Rather, I haven't yet figured out how to meter and frame high contrast scenes with the A7R ii, and I hosed this one substantially. Not a masterpiece by any stretch of the imagination, but that's pretty handy.



Compared to the shot metered properly, the vastly underexposed one is obviously noisier and the recovered colors are a bit washed out.


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## raptor3x (Aug 9, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> I rented fe 16-35mm for my recent trip to Hawaii. With over 200 shots with my a7s, never feel the IQ is below canon f4 IS. I have this lens in my bh account. Will more likely buy it after some testing a7rii with fe55.



I switched from the Canon 16-35 f/4 IS to the FE 16-35 because I found I was almost always using the Canon on the A7R with an adapter. At the wide end there's no significant difference but the Canon is definitely the better lens around 35mm.


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## Neutral (Aug 9, 2015)

3kramd5 said:


> Neutral said:
> 
> 
> > Not have much time now to spend more on these tests and more research regarding subject, possibly some time later.
> ...



OK, so your results are the same what I found out for S-Log2 exposure.
This indeed is very interesting.

This actually means that using S-Log2 you can capture at least 4 times more light (2 stops) or even 3 stops by the camera sensor without affecting highlight compared to liner mode with the same given fixed aperture and fixed ISO for the similar output results (as seen on histogram)

This is very drastic way for preserving highlights clipping and this is completely different to the Canon “preserve highlights” mode. My understanding was (from different sources) that in highlights protection mode Canon is just underexposing shot and then pushing up shadows and mid tones in the resulting image (digital post processing after sensor ADC). .
Sony on the contrary allowing increasing exposure by two stops by exponentially compressing highlights. 
So it is very interesting how they do this technically.

My understanding that for this to be done properly it have to be done by changing analog signal amplifier gain curve from linear to logarithmic curve starting from some signal level that is fairly below highlights clipping point. 
Moreover, this point in A7S and A7rII could be adjusted – it called knee point in PP settings and could be set to higher or lower level.
So my suspicion (interpretation of what we observe with S-Log2) that Sony is doing that in analog signal amplifier before sensor ADC.
Why I think so is that S-Log2 base ISO for A7S is 3200 and for A7rII is 800 compared to native ISO 100 for linear mode.

*This raise the question – why this high ISO setting is required for S-Log2 mode to work?*
Why it could not work when using base ISO100?

Reasonable explanation for me is that it is not possible to do S-Log2 compression with base ISO where analog circuit gain before ADC is equal 1 so it is not possible to reduce gain for higher signal levels. 
For S-Log2 mode analog amplifier (before ADC) is initially set for gain required for ISO3200 for A7S and for ISO800 for A7rII. 
This means it is 32 times (5 stops) higher for A7S compared to gain for base ISO100 or 3 stops higher for a7rII. 

So using this initial gain setup, it is possible to reduce analog amplifier gain up to 5 stops (from 32 to 1) for higher signal levels (Max 5 stops reduction at Max signal level) for A7s and by 3 stops for A7rII.
This logarithmic gain reduction applied starting from the “knee point” which could be adjusted in the PP profile in A7S and A7rII. In reality, I think gain reduction is less – around 3 stops as seen from output histogram.

Therefore, this allow mapping of all the possible photocell DR to the input signal range (min/max values) of the ADC behind analog amplifier . So this theoretically would allow to fit more real input DR to the digital output signal after ADC.

If we Look at Sensorgen figures for A7S http://www.sensorgen.info/SonyA7S.html this could mean that in S-Log2 mode (at ISO3200) we could have read noise of 4.1(e-) but increase saturation point from 5453 (for analog amplifier gain =32) up to 155557 (for gain =1) thus using full well capacity for highlights (which is limited for linear gain mode as higher signal will be beyond ADC max input signal level) 
This theoretically gives possibility to have captured DR equal to 155557/4.1 = 37940.
This translates to log2 (37940) = 15.2 stops of theoretical limit for input scene when using S-Log2 mode for input analog signal amplifier before ADC.
In practical implementation (with some other limitations, which we do not know), this could be that 14.5 stops of maximum DR that Sony was claiming for a7S. 
So my assumption (and possible explanation) that when Sony was claiming 14.5stops maximum DR for A7S that figure was maximum that could be achievable using for S-Log2 mode and not for linear mode. 
Possibly marketing people did not know that well.
Also that means that DXO measurements for A7S DR was done in linear mode do not reflect actual camera DR capabilities when S-Log2 mode is used.

Who knows , may be Sony will be using that methodology transparently for user in coming a7000 which claimed to have DR above 15.
Basically this is similar to dual ISO mode in ML , difference is that it is not a dual ISO using two shots but rather logarithmic ISO reduction for highlights in a single shot

This all above is very interesting (at least for me and hope for some others) and I hope I will be able to find some time in to do some more tests and more research on that.


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## Neutral (Aug 9, 2015)

Neutral said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Neutral said:
> ...



Found something interesting related to the S-Log2 subject:
http://nofilmschool.com/2014/07/sony-a7s-dynamic-range-arri-alexa-amira
Mentioned there that Sony was claiming 15.3 stops which actually match my calculations above for theoretical S-Log2 max DR limit for A7S.
Authors of that article measured A7S dynamic range in S-Log2 mode to be around 14.1 stops.
"Here we tested usable dynamic range of the given cameras. With 14.1 stops the usable dynamic range of the A7S comes surprisingly close to the Arri Amira with its legendary Alexa sensor (see our full review here)"


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## bwud (Aug 9, 2015)

Here's a contrived situation. I put a lenscap in a closet, closed the door most of the way, and shot through the crack with a wide angle lens. See my cringe-worthy setup:







01 and 02 have the same exposure settings (f/4, 30 seconds, ISO800). 02 is s-log2.

01 has blown highlights. 02 doesn't have blown highlights (excepting the very right-hand side of the frame), but the shadows are darker.

I can certainly recover a heck of a lot more detail with the s-log2 image. 

However, better than both is 03, which is shares the exposure time and aperture, but is at ISO100. It has similar shadows to 01, and better highlights than 02.

01 Raw
02 Raw
03 Raw


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## Dylan777 (Aug 11, 2015)

1st photo shows cropping size

2nd photo exported from LR6


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## bwud (Aug 11, 2015)

Shot at about 4:30PM facing a smidge south of west (maybe 255 degrees). Highlights are maybe 1/2 stop from clipped, foreground was in deep shadow. I can recover it better than I think I'd have been able to with my 5Dmk3, but there's something about it I don't like. I think it's the color (possibly because it's coming from deep shadow). I can actually recover more shadow than I recall seeing with my eyes (probably a false memory), but it starts to look way too flat.

I need to learn to process these, I guess. If I'm not pleased by the time I leave for Europe next month, it's going back and I'll get a 5DS.


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## bwud (Aug 11, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> 1st photo shows cropping size
> 
> 2nd photo exported from LR6



Dylan: As a user of both canon and Sony, may I ask how you've configured yours?

I have shutter on the front wheel and aperture on the rear dial a'la Canon since balance is terrible (and it's simply uncomfortable) if my thumb is up top. I'd love to put ISO on the rear wheel but it's not configurable.

If I toggle the bottom of the rear dial it brings up the AF spot selection (don't recall what mysterious name they gave that, maybe AF mode?), which I can then maneuver a number of ways. I prefer using the 4 directional buttons of the dial (so I don't have to move my hand), but often it jumps out of spot selection mode and into whatever mode that button is otherwise assigned for (the only one I use frequently is ISO, and I can put that on AEL, which is currently something silly like monitor off). I'm thinking about unassigning them to avoid that. Center of the dial is AF-on (focus decoupled from the shutter release); it's the easiest to reach by feel, but I'm worried that adding a battery grip will screw that up in portrait orientation.

I have the c1 button for Focus Magnify, c2 for metering mode, and I can't for the life of me remember what I put on 3 and 4.


Also, I started a "shot with" thread here. Feel free to add your new photos!


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## Dylan777 (Aug 11, 2015)

bwud said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > 1st photo shows cropping size
> ...



1. Shutter front & Aperture back

2. Left, Right and Down Button set as Focus Setting. This setting allows me to move the AF point faster, kinda like joystick on 1dx.

3. Center set for Face AF

3. Center in AF/MF area set for Eye Focus

4. Everything else, I use Fn.

I do not like the shutter & aperture dial. It's small, feel cheap and hard to turn. Too early to tell about the AF tracking.


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## bwud (Aug 11, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> 2. Left, Right and Down Button set as Focus Setting. This setting allows me to move the AF point faster, kinda like joystick on 1dx.



Thanks. I'll play with un-assigning and setting them all to Focus Setting to see which works best.


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