# Canon said to have scrapped at least one DSLR in development [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 19, 2018)

> We’re told that Canon has scrapped development of at least one DSLR in favour of a mirrorless option. We weren’t told which potential DSLR has been scrapped, but it sounds plausible.
> The same source said to expect 3 new APS-C DSLRs in 2019, but not to expect any full-frame EOS DSLR bodies next year. Though it was mentioned that the follow-up to the EOS-1D X Mark II is well on its way in its development, but not to expect the new camera until 2020 ahead of the Summer Olympics in Tokyo, Japan.
> 
> It was also claimed that Canon recently showed a roadmap in a marketing meeting that listed 3 unreleased EOS R bodies, along with 5 RF lenses. All of these were listed to arrive before Q2 2020. Though it’s noted the date range for the announcements was quite broad.
> As for the DSLR that was potentially scrapped during development? We’d put our money on the EOS 5DS line of bodies. We really don’t think a DSLR sequel is coming for that series and that we’ll get an EOS R body instead.



Continue reading...


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## schmidtfilme (Nov 19, 2018)

How about the 6D series? Will we ever see a new version?


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## jolyonralph (Nov 19, 2018)

I think it's pretty sure the 5DSR will be replaced next year with a mirrorless option. It's the one that will most immediately benefit from having the mirror dropped and switching to mirrorless.


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## cayenne (Nov 19, 2018)

schmidtfilme said:


> How about the 6D series? Will we ever see a new version?


I pretty much believe that the currently released first EOS-R camera that just came out **IS* *the 6D mirror slapper replacement.<P>
Damn...I was hoping for something "R" related release next year that was a bit higher on the totem pole for a replacement for my slightly aging 5D3.


cayenne


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Nov 19, 2018)

I doubt we'll see a new generation of the 6D as a DSLR. Honestly that's the last camera I would ever expect to see as a DSLR when it comes time for its next iteration.

The current generation came out not very long ago, so once it's time for a 6D III, we'll be well into a time when mirrorless has taken over. Once it's time for Canon to make a 6D III, it will look almost foolish for it to still be a DSLR.

Combined with that, it seems to me like the 6D is a perfect candidate to change to mirrorless. It's never been billed as an all-out professional camera, so any viewfinder lag or other things that Canon is still working through is forgivable in a camera that's not designed to be a professional product.

Heck, depending on who you ask, the EOS R is already basically a mirrorless 6D level camera. (Honestly I like to give it more credit than that since it's packing a better sensor, but the lack of 5D level controls does bug me, so I understand people who say it's more of a 6D level camera.)


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## cpsico (Nov 19, 2018)

My bet would be on the 5DSR also, that camera would by far see the most benefit from the new mount and would be a great only if the can expand the dynamic range while adding IBIS


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## cpsico (Nov 19, 2018)

cayenne said:


> I pretty much believe that the currently released first EOS-R camera that just came out **IS* *the 6D mirror slapper replacement.<P>
> Damn...I was hoping for something "R" related release next year that was a bit higher on the totem pole for a replacement for my slightly aging 5D3.
> 
> 
> cayenne


The 5DIV will have some killer kit deals the entire holiday season, and is a very good camera


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 19, 2018)

schmidtfilme said:


> How about the 6D series? Will we ever see a new version?


The 6D MK II is still a fairly new version. Any new version will depend on the sales of the EOS R, and seems unlikely to me. I'd say that its the most likely version in current development to have been scrapped before too much money was invested.


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## JonSnow (Nov 19, 2018)

the DSLR is not dead..... it will not even be born. 

hoping for a 5DS R sooner than later.


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## cayenne (Nov 19, 2018)

cpsico said:


> The 5DIV will have some killer kit deals the entire holiday season, and is a very good camera




Yeah, I've already been seeing some pricing on that, but I really was hoping if timing would work...I'd transition straight off the 5D3 to the EOS-R platform.
I pretty much have almost every lens I'd ever want, except for a 50L lens...and that 50R lens looks sweet.....so a 5D4 kit wouldn't do much for me. 

I'd be getting body only. Of course I'll keep the 5D3 to use as my second camera, and make life easier shooting concerts with 2 cameras rather than having to do quick lens swaps in the open...!!

I would likely go for the new EOS-R, but with only 1 card slot....and other things that seem less than the "5" level camera, I was hoping for something a bit more pro coming in the "R" line in 2019.


Not sure why Canon is shooing for 2 lower level R cameras, rather than maybe one below the current one and one above the current one...???

C


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## 4fun (Nov 19, 2018)

hehe, i hope they scrapped more than just 1 DSLR in favor of mirrorfree ... 

5Ds/R II >> "EOS R5 Pro", hi-rez sensor model (60MP?)
6D II >> "EOS R6" same as R in smaller body, without top LCD and at much lower price  
5D V >> "EOS R Mk. II", with decent fps even in Servo-shooting priority AF, decent 4k specs, improved UI/control points 
1D-X III >> "EOS 1R" ... 2020 Olympic killer beast leaving "Nikon Z8" and "Sony A10" in the dust 
78D, 90D >> "EOS M5 II" 
EOS 7D III >> "EOS M7" slightly larger + wheathersealed body, LP-E6N battery, more DIGIC power for more fps and (even) better AF than "M5 II"
"all Rebels xxxD" >> "EOS M60" - further improved, same price, successor to M50
"all Rebels xxxD / SL-" >> "EOS M 200" - successor to M100

So I'd say all of their DSLRs could, should and hopefully will be scrapped and replaced by mirrorfree cameras.


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## Josh Leavitt (Nov 19, 2018)

Yeah it's almost certainly the 5DS(R) II that got axed. Makes sense to swap it out to the RF so mirror-slap is out of the picture (so to speak...). Plus it would likely be the first EOS R model to advantage of the resolving power of the RF glass.


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## 4fun (Nov 19, 2018)

cayenne said:


> Not sure why Canon is shooing for 2 lower level R cameras, rather than maybe one below the current one and one above the current one...???



i expect the 3 unreleased R bodies to come in as:
1. "EOS R6 "entry level, slightly lower spec than EOS R at much lower price"
2. "EOS R5S" - hi-rez pro model 
3. "EOS R1" - mirrorfree 1D-X III beast


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## nchoh (Nov 19, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I doubt we'll see a new generation of the 6D as a DSLR. Honestly that's the last camera I would ever expect to see as a DSLR when it comes time for its next iteration.
> 
> The current generation came out not very long ago, so once it's time for a 6D III, we'll be well into a time when mirrorless has taken over. Once it's time for Canon to make a 6D III, it will look almost foolish for it to still be a DSLR.
> 
> ...



Also because the 6D is the entry level FF DSLR. If Canon wants to promote their mirrorless FF, then the obvious move is to "move" the entry FF from DSLR to mirrorless.


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## Aaron D (Nov 19, 2018)

I'm happy to leave mirrors behind. Got an R to replace my 5Dii which was a backup to the 5Div I still use as my primary. Same image quality now between bodies. And I love it, btw...

And all the EF lenses I depend on are 10 years old or getting there, so I'm anxious to see new improved RF replacements. Wide TS lenses in particular.


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## Mireaux (Nov 19, 2018)

I have been waiting for the successor of 5DsR since mine got stolen. It means that I will have to wait a little bit longer. Arrrgh.


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## Chaitanya (Nov 19, 2018)

Most probably 5DS/R series would get culled in favour of mirrorless option. Also same can be said for 5D mark 4 being last of its kinds we might not see dslr replacements for either of those two cameras.


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## Ozarker (Nov 19, 2018)

4fun said:


> hehe, i hope they scrapped more than just 1 DSLR in favor of mirrorfree ...
> 
> 5Ds/R II >> "EOS R5 Pro", hi-rez sensor model (60MP?)
> 6D II >> "EOS R6" same as R in smaller body, without top LCD and at much lower price
> ...


You just keep coming back.


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## nchoh (Nov 19, 2018)

4fun said:


> hehe, i hope they scrapped more than just 1 DSLR in favor of mirrorfree ...
> 
> 5Ds/R II >> "EOS R5 Pro", hi-rez sensor model (60MP?)
> 6D II >> "EOS R6" same as R in smaller body, without top LCD and at much lower price
> ...



Not sure why the hate for DSLRs. There are still people who would still buy them.


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## delta0 (Nov 19, 2018)

I think this whole idea of xxxD and xxD being replaced by M needs to be dropped. XxxD and xxD are coming next year and for the foreseeable in DSLR and later R form. The question will be when will they switch them to RF mount.


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## -pekr- (Nov 19, 2018)

4fun said:


> hehe, i hope they scrapped more than just 1 DSLR in favor of mirrorfree ...
> 
> 5Ds/R II >> "EOS R5 Pro", hi-rez sensor model (60MP?)
> 6D II >> "EOS R6" same as R in smaller body, without top LCD and at much lower price
> ...



I think that EOS 7D's line replacement, while still being an APS-C based, is going to sport R mount, not M one. Interesting times ahead, though


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## padam (Nov 19, 2018)

RIP 5DSR II


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## dak723 (Nov 19, 2018)

cayenne said:


> ...
> I would likely go for the new EOS-R, but with only 1 card slot....and other things that seem less than the "5" level camera, I was hoping for something a bit more pro coming in the "R" line in 2019.
> Not sure why Canon is shooing for 2 lower level R cameras, rather than maybe one below the current one and one above the current one...???
> C



Article doesn't mention anything about what level the 3 upcoming R bodies will be.


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## BillB (Nov 19, 2018)

nchoh said:


> Not sure why the hate for DSLRs. There are still people who would still buy them.



The current DSLRs might stay in production for a while, at least some of them.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 19, 2018)

delta0 said:


> I think this whole idea of xxxD and xxD being replaced by M needs to be dropped. XxxD and xxD are coming next year and for the foreseeable in DSLR and later R form. The question will be when will they switch them to RF mount.



Unlikely. the XXXD and XXD series won't carry through to R mount, they'll be replaced by M mount. 

I only see the 7D series as being replaced by an APS-C R mount body.

Of course, the lineup may be more complex than this - I don't expect the R line to be direct replacements for D line DSLRs


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## delta0 (Nov 19, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Unlikely. the XXXD and XXD series won't carry through to R mount, they'll be replaced by M mount.
> 
> I only see the 7D series as being replaced by an APS-C R mount body.
> 
> Of course, the lineup may be more complex than this - I don't expect the R line to be direct replacements for D line DSLRs


Let’s see what comes next year. It won’t be an M mount I’m certain.


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## neurorx (Nov 19, 2018)

I am hoping for a 5DS replacement. For those using the EF adaptor for the EOS R how well is it working? I don’t see many reviews yet on the new R versions of L version of glass. I can’t see my wallet replacing all of my L glass overnight.


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## 4fun (Nov 19, 2018)

delta0 said:


> Let’s see what comes next year. It won’t be an M mount I’m certain.



(First half of) 2019 will bring 2 EOS M bodies for sure. They are already well into registration with various gov't authorities in multiple countries.


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## bokehmon22 (Nov 19, 2018)

neurorx said:


> I am hoping for a 5DS replacement. For those using the EF adaptor for the EOS R how well is it working? I don’t see many reviews yet on the new R versions of L version of glass. I can’t see my wallet replacing all of my L glass overnight.




It's performing well for me. Native performance without calibrating the lens. 

Canon 24-70 2.8 II, Sigma 105 1.4 Art, and Sigma 14-24 2.8 Art.

It's very sharp when you hit the shot since I don't have to calibrate the lens.


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## Don Haines (Nov 19, 2018)

If it is a 7D2 replacement, they are going to have to double the burst rate....

Put in a BIG buffer and make it something really good, like 60FPS


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## criscokkat (Nov 19, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> If it is a 7D2 replacement, they are going to have to double the burst rate....
> 
> Put in a BIG buffer and make it something really good, like 60FPS


The sensor used in the R doesn't have the speed to output it's data that fast, but purportedly it could hit somewhere around 11-13 frames per second if it had enough processing power. If they put in a APS-C sensor that had the same bandwidth it could probably do 15-20fps, and use less processing power too for other things like rendering the viewfinder, focusing and writing to memory.

I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the cameras they are discontinuing is the 7dMkII replacement.I fully expect APS-C R lenses. Have we even seen any hard rumors of EF lenses being developed recently? We might see something in 2019 but I wouldn't be surprised to not see any released after 2019.


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## BillB (Nov 19, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Unlikely. the XXXD and XXD series won't carry through to R mount, they'll be replaced by M mount.
> 
> I only see the 7D series as being replaced by an APS-C R mount body.
> 
> Of course, the lineup may be more complex than this - I don't expect the R line to be direct replacements for D line DSLRs[





criscokkat said:


> The sensor used in the R doesn't have the speed to output it's data that fast, but purportedly it could hit somewhere around 11-13 frames per second if it had enough processing power. If they put in a APS-C sensor that had the same bandwidth it could probably do 15-20fps, and use less processing power too for other things like rendering the viewfinder, focusing and writing to memory.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the cameras they are discontinuing is the 7dMkII replacement.I fully expect APS-C R lenses. Have we even seen any hard rumors of EF lenses being developed recently? We might see something in 2019 but I wouldn't be surprised to not see any released after 2019.



A 24mp or higher aps-c sensor would be a logical starting point for a 7d2 replacement, whether it has a mirror or not. It could be the starting point for a FF sensor to go in the 5DS replacement. My guess is that cameras upscale from the R are going to come with dual Digic processors.


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## delta0 (Nov 19, 2018)

4fun said:


> (First half of) 2019 will bring 2 EOS M bodies for sure. They are already well into registration with various gov't authorities in multiple countries.


Not for the xxxD or xxD but for other M cameras.


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## 4fun (Nov 19, 2018)

delta0 said:


> Not for the xxxD or xxD but for other M cameras.



One will in all likelihood be an "EOS M5 Mk. II". Whether it will be "90D" = M5 with new sensor and specs a bit above M50 (eg further improved Eye Tracking AF, a bit less nerfed 4k specs, slightly better display and/or EVF etc.) - or a fully capable "7D III" remains to be seen.

Second upcoming EOS M model is unclear: either "EOS M6 II" (= no EVF) or an updated "EOS M100 successor"?


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## Quarkcharmed (Nov 19, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> I think it's pretty sure the 5DSR will be replaced next year with a mirrorless option.



Replaced? Most likely. Next year? Unlikely. It's Canon and they don't do things that fast. 
I'd change my 5DMkIV to this prospective mirrorless 5DSR but I don't think it's going to happen next year.


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## Mr Majestyk (Nov 19, 2018)

No surprise and to me that means sayonara 5DsII as a DSLR. As long as Canon can offer a state of the art sensor for mirrorless, either their own or fabbed by Sony then I welcome the move. I had hoped the 1DXII would be replaced by end of next year though. I wonder if Nikon D6 will be released next year or 2020. I'm guessing the 7DIII will have to be a DSLR, as Canon could in no way offer a 10fps+ action beast with their sensor tech and DPAF. Again this is fine as long as they can produce a camera that can clearly better the D500 in all key metrics. No mean feat as the D500 overall beats the 1DxII in AF except with f/8 lens combos.


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## bhf3737 (Nov 20, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> The sensor used in the R doesn't have the speed to output it's data that fast, but purportedly it could hit somewhere around 11-13 frames per second if it had enough processing power. If they put in a APS-C sensor that had the same bandwidth it could probably do 15-20fps, and use less processing power too for other things like rendering the viewfinder, focusing and writing to memory.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the cameras they are discontinuing is the 7dMkII replacement.I fully expect APS-C R lenses. Have we even seen any hard rumors of EF lenses being developed recently? We might see something in 2019 but I wouldn't be surprised to not see any released after 2019.


My guess is that a dual Digic8 processor will be capable of very high frame rate. Traditionally, Canon has used dual Digic processors in 7D, 1DX and 5Ds models so the computation technology and heat management know-how is there. DPAF, and EVF require additional computing resources and battery power. Other APS-C brands, like Fuji X-T3, have overcome the computation complexity by separating the auto focus from the rest of the system and process them on different cores. So it is theoretically doable in Digic8 (which is ARM based, and ARM multi-core processors are capable of independent instruction execution that can be treated as a single unit). Conclusion: high frame rate is quite likely. Perhaps battery capacity remains a bottleneck.


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## Don Haines (Nov 20, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> My guess is that a dual Digic8 processor will be capable of very high frame rate. Traditionally, Canon has used dual Digic processors in 7D, 1DX and 5Ds models so the computation technology and heat management know-how is there. DPAF, and EVF require additional computing resources and battery power. Other APS-C brands, like Fuji X-T3, have overcome the computation complexity by separating the auto focus from the rest of the system and process them on different cores. So it is theoretically doable in Digic8 (which is ARM based, and ARM multi-core processors are capable of independent instruction execution that can be treated as a single unit). Conclusion: high frame rate is quite likely. Perhaps battery capacity remains a bottleneck.



I agree. After all, when shooting video they can read the sensor 60 times per second.... Dual digic chips.... another Digic chip dedicated for AF..... It's not like Canon has never done this before.....


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## tron (Nov 20, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> I think it's pretty sure the 5DSR will be replaced next year with a mirrorless option. It's the one that will most immediately benefit from having the mirror dropped and switching to mirrorless.


Do you own one and are dissatisfied because of its mirror?


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## tron (Nov 20, 2018)

nchoh said:


> Not sure why the hate for DSLRs. There are still people who would still buy them.


I do not know either. Maybe the hate comes from dis-functional idiot internet surfers. Who knows? I am satisfied with my 5DsR and I would upgrade it to a second generation 5DsRII without a second thought... But the internet kids know better obviously...


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## Peter M (Nov 20, 2018)

I really hope Canon releases the 90D as a significant upgrade to the 80D, I just don't see the advantage of EVF and staring into a viewfinder with a 1/2" screen while trying to see WTF is going on. Seems idiotic to me. The XXD line is excellent and at a great price point.. Why would I want to dump all my EF-S lenses and start over with some tiny little 8oz camera? Mirrorless is far less expensive for them to produce. Are they going to reduce the price? I guarantee you they will not!


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## Rocky (Nov 20, 2018)

For sports, birding, even for kids running around, nothing can complete with DSLR. So far mirrorless wins in size, weight and no AFMA needed.


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## Rocky (Nov 20, 2018)

Peter M said:


> I really hope Canon releases the 90D as a significant upgrade to the 80D, I just don't see the advantage of EVF and staring into a viewfinder with a 1/2" screen while trying to see WTF is going on. Seems idiotic to me. The XXD line is excellent and at a great price point.. Why would I want to dump all my EF-S lenses and start over with some tiny little 8oz camera? Mirrorless is far less expensive for them to produce. Are they going to reduce the price? I guarantee you they will not!


There is EF-S to M adapter. It works very well with M50. I move from 40D to the M's and have never look back. I do not do sport or biding anymore. So there is no need for DSLR anymore.


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## unfocused (Nov 20, 2018)

I can see replacing the 5Ds with mirrorless. Not so sure about the 6D. It will be few years before a replacement comes along, but right now, with the 6DII selling for about 60% of the price of mirrorless, I can see Canon keeping it in the lineup for quite some time. Canon has set the expectation for an entry level full frame to be around $1,200 in the U.S. Mirrorless would have to drop significantly in price to meet that expectation. Canon could just keep the 6DII in the lineup for an extra 2-3 years and let the price drop to $1,000 or less, as they watch the market and see if mirrorless is really going to take hold.

7DIII will be a DSLR and likely the 90D as well. There are too many improvements needed in mirrorless technology before these cameras, along with the 5D and 1Dx, can be shifted to mirrorless.


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## unfocused (Nov 20, 2018)

Rocky said:


> ...I do not do sport or biding anymore. So there is no need for DSLR anymore.



And that pretty much sums it up. Landscape, portraits, etc., mirrorless is fine. Sports, wildlife, birds – DLSR


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## sanj (Nov 20, 2018)

Goodbye DSLR.


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## AlanF (Nov 20, 2018)

tron said:


> I do not know either. Maybe the hate comes from dis-functional idiot internet surfers. Who knows? I am satisfied with my 5DsR and I would upgrade it to a second generation 5DsRII without a second thought... But the internet kids know better obviously...


I have just returned from 2 weeks on safari sharing a 5DSR and 5DIV with my wife. The 5DSR with 100-400mm II +1.4xTC worked flawlessly for birds and animals and matched the 5DIV + 400mm IDO II + 2xTC and got great BIF shots. I’ll post some shots soon. I’d buy a 5DSR II like a shot. The AF on both those DSLRs is very consistent and locks on really fast to isolate small birds hidden in foliage or birds in flight.


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## rawshooter (Nov 20, 2018)

unfocused said:


> And that pretty much sums it up. Landscape, portraits, etc., mirrorless is fine. Sports, wildlife, birds – DLSR



And if you need to have your camera in protective casing that would take to long to open and close again (or might be even impossible without removing yourself from the event or getting to a unprotected camera safe area) so you want your battery to last. No only 300 shots camera for me...


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## Talys (Nov 20, 2018)

Peter M said:


> Mirrorless is far less expensive for them to produce. Are they going to reduce the price? I guarantee you they will not!



The key word is, _eventually_. When mirrorless cameras become a mature product where each iteration is hard to differentiate from the last and every early adopter willing to pay a big premium has done so, they'll drop to the price of today's DSLRs, adjusted for inflation.

However, they won't get much cheaper than that, because the demand curve for ILCs is flexible enough; the size of the market is limited for factors other than just price. Even if the EOS R were ridiculously cheap, say, $500, it wouldn't entice a flood of new ILC buyers.


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## Talys (Nov 20, 2018)

unfocused said:


> And that pretty much sums it up. Landscape, portraits, etc., mirrorless is fine. Sports, wildlife, birds – DLSR


I still strongly prefer DSLR for flash photography. 

Before EOS R, there was no mirrorless that could even focus properly in a dimly lit room. Even with EOS R, it's not really competitive with any DSLR + AF illuminator rooms. Plus EVFs are just not enjoyable to use when the room is darker. Even when they work, they are grainy and uncomfortable.

Plus, if you're artificially creating a lot of the light (strobes, gels, grids, modifiers, etc.), or stopping motion, the EVF has no advantage at all.


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## Talys (Nov 20, 2018)

AlanF said:


> I have just returned from 2 weeks on safari sharing a 5DSR and 5DIV with my wife. The 5DSR with 100-400mm II +1.4xTC worked flawlessly for birds and animals and matched the 5DIV + 400mm IDO II + 2xTC and got great BIF shots. I’ll post some shots soon. I’d buy a 5DSR II like a shot. The AF on both those DSLRs is very consistent and locks on really fast to isolate small birds hidden in foliage or birds in flight.


Me too.

I shot with a D850 for a few days, and there are quite a few things I like on that camera for birding. I'd love to see some of those features in a future 5D series -- including not having to choose between higher megapixels and higher framerates. Such a camera would high on my list.


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## dave61 (Nov 20, 2018)

There has to be a limit to the number of cameras Canon can develop at any one time and I expect that new R bodies will get priority until they have fleshed out the range. I expect we will see mid-level and high-end APS-C models (roughly xxxD/xxD and 7D) and probably a FF model above the R.


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## koenkooi (Nov 20, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> The sensor used in the R doesn't have the speed to output it's data that fast, but purportedly it could hit somewhere around 11-13 frames per second if it had enough processing power. If they put in a APS-C sensor that had the same bandwidth it could probably do 15-20fps, and use less processing power too for other things like rendering the viewfinder, focusing and writing to memory.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the cameras they are discontinuing is the 7dMkII replacement.I fully expect APS-C R lenses. Have we even seen any hard rumors of EF lenses being developed recently? We might see something in 2019 but I wouldn't be surprised to not see any released after 2019.



It's not so much sensor size as MP count. A single digic 8 seems to be able to 'do' about 250MP/second: the M50 can do 10fps with 24MP, the R 8fps with 30MP. The 5DSR has two digic 6 processors to reach that same number: 5fps with 50MP.


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## zonoskar (Nov 20, 2018)

I really hope they make a 60Mpix 5DSR replacement with the RF mount, then also make this the 7D replacement. 60Mpix with 5 fps should equal almost 13 fps in 1.6crop mode (23 Mpix). There's no mirror to be slapped, so the fps should only be limited by the processing power of the Digic CPU. As the current Digic can do 30Mpix @ 8 fps (no focus), a dual Digic 8 would be more than capable of reaching [email protected] and 23Mpix at 13.


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## hendrik-sg (Nov 20, 2018)

In my opinion the big mess is, that R lenses can not be used on M Cameras.

So far, one could start with a APSC DSLR, then buy some FF lenses and later buy a FF camera and keep the APSC Camera as a backup and teleconverter. I went this way, after having some nice FF lenses I wanted a body who can fully use them.

Somebody who starts with M can not pre-invest in R-lenses, only in EF which I would not do, buy EF Lenses for a R Body. Indeed, one need to buy a full set of new lenses, when getting a R Body. There is no smooth transition path. this makes the at once investment huge.

For me, it looks like, that the M mount was planed without the R having in mind, which looks like a big mistake. So, in my opinion, the M mound should be replaced first, to not lock in customers and prevent them from upgrading.


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## koenkooi (Nov 20, 2018)

zonoskar said:


> I really hope they make a 60Mpix 5DSR replacement with the RF mount, then also make this the 7D replacement. 60Mpix with 5 fps should equal almost 13 fps in 1.6crop mode (23 Mpix). There's no mirror to be slapped, so the fps should only be limited by the processing power of the Digic CPU. [..]



Don't forget about the physical shutter, that needs some cycle time as well. The 1DX2 can do 16fps with the mirror up, so the 13fps you mention should be doable.


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## GMCPhotographics (Nov 20, 2018)

4fun said:


> hehe, i hope they scrapped more than just 1 DSLR in favor of mirrorfree ...
> 
> 5Ds/R II >> "EOS R5 Pro", hi-rez sensor model (60MP?)
> 6D II >> "EOS R6" same as R in smaller body, without top LCD and at much lower price
> ...



The AF in the Eos R is very lacking and the "photographer's experience" is appalling. So no...I would not be looking for a 5Dx mirrorless replacement. If you think Canon wold ditch their sales...then you have been drinking too much EOS R marketing kool aid. DSLR's are here to stay, as is Eos R. One is not a replacement of the other but both have their place in the market.


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## Stuart (Nov 20, 2018)

I hope this is not true, i do want to see more FF mirrorless models. and an AF software upgrade for the current model.


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## klausenrique (Nov 20, 2018)

I have a 5DS and I would buy a 5DS II in a second. If it is replaced with an R version, on the other hand, I will sell all my Canon gear and buy a Nikon D850 instead.


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## Del Paso (Nov 20, 2018)

4fun said:


> hehe, i hope they scrapped more than just 1 DSLR in favor of mirrorfree ...
> 
> 5Ds/R II >> "EOS R5 Pro", hi-rez sensor model (60MP?)
> 6D II >> "EOS R6" same as R in smaller body, without top LCD and at much lower price
> ...


A 60 MP, and diffraction sets in at f 4???????
Macro photography means at least f 8, so please Canon, give us reasonable MP (50 max!)


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## Del Paso (Nov 20, 2018)

zonoskar said:


> I really hope they make a 60Mpix 5DSR replacement with the RF mount, then also make this the 7D replacement. 60Mpix with 5 fps should equal almost 13 fps in 1.6crop mode (23 Mpix). There's no mirror to be slapped, so the fps should only be limited by the processing power of the Digic CPU. As the current Digic can do 30Mpix @ 8 fps (no focus), a dual Digic 8 would be more than capable of reaching [email protected] and 23Mpix at 13.


And I' m hoping for less MP since for macro photography I need f 8 or f 11 (don't forget diffraction).
To me, this continuous hunt for more MP reminds me of what happened to hi -fidelity, when almost everybody "needed" 500 watts in his living-room...
Does everybody need 8 x 10 (yards !) ?


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## PerKr (Nov 20, 2018)

As for the XX0D and XXD series replacements being M-mount... I don't think so. It's a good mount if you want a compact camera I suppose. But with RF being the big mount Canon need entry-level bodies using this mount as well. Plenty of enthusiasts start out with a lower series camera and work their way up to the more expensive options as their financial situation improves. Being stuck with M-mount in that situation would suck, especially considering the competition have a range of bodies and lenses that will allow you to evolve within the same mount.


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## AlanF (Nov 20, 2018)

Talys said:


> Me too.
> 
> I shot with a D850 for a few days, and there are quite a few things I like on that camera for birding. I'd love to see some of those features in a future 5D series -- including not having to choose between higher megapixels and higher framerates. Such a camera would high on my list.


The D850 has got it right, enough megapixels without an AA-filter and Nikon are throwing everything at new telephoto lenses.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 20, 2018)

tron said:


> Do you own one and are dissatisfied because of its mirror?



Yes I do, and yes I am.

It adds unnecessary vibration when doing high-resolution macro photography which is why I bought it. I have to use mirror lockup and a multi-second delay to kill all vibration and then multi-shot stack images take ages.

Electronic shutter as on the EOS R is a gamechanger for this.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Nov 20, 2018)

GMCPhotographics said:


> The AF in the Eos R is very lacking and the "photographer's experience" is appalling. So no...I would not be looking for a 5Dx mirrorless replacement. If you think Canon wold ditch their sales...then you have been drinking too much EOS R marketing kool aid. DSLR's are here to stay, as is Eos R. One is not a replacement of the other but both have their place in the market.


What about the AF on the EOS R do you find lacking? The speed, accuracy, and ability to focus in poor lighting is the one thing that keeps me coming back to the EOS R in spite of its usability issues.


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## cayenne (Nov 20, 2018)

unfocused said:


> I can see replacing the 5Ds with mirrorless. Not so sure about the 6D.



I was of the thought, that this first EOS-R **IS** the mirrorless replacement for the 6D.....? It doesn't seem to be beefy enough to be the replacement for the 5D series......

C


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## schmidtfilme (Nov 20, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The 6D MK II is still a fairly new version. Any new version will depend on the sales of the EOS R, and seems unlikely to me. I'd say that its the most likely version in current development to have been scrapped before too much money was invested.



Unfortunately I see it the same...


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## hazydave (Nov 20, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I agree. After all, when shooting video they can read the sensor 60 times per second.... Dual digic chips.... another Digic chip dedicated for AF..... It's not like Canon has never done this before.....



You may have noticed the severe crop you get in 4K, eh? In HD, it's line skipping. They never read the whole sensor in video modes. But is it speed, heat, or both?

I think Canon may have a heat problem in their current sensors. Itvwas a complete no-brainer to include IBIS in any camera being put up as a Sony A7 alternative. Just about every new high end camera at Photokina had it, other than the EOS R. Low speed can account for the lack of a full frame readout, either sensor speed or processor speed. But that has no effect on IBIS. 

Heat, on the other hand, is an issue with IBIS. Sony has had overheating problems with full frame IBIS and video. No reports of that with Nikon, and of course, the Panasonics aren't out yet. And Sony did just about cut power consumption in half between the A7 and the A7III. They have been 2-3 generations ahead of Canon on sensor fabrication, and if they just recently solved the heat issues, pretty much a guarantee that Canon has more work to do.


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## hazydave (Nov 20, 2018)

unfocused said:


> I can see replacing the 5Ds with mirrorless. Not so sure about the 6D. It will be few years before a replacement comes along, but right now, with the 6DII selling for about 60% of the price of mirrorless, I can see Canon keeping it in the lineup for quite some time. Canon has set the expectation for an entry level full frame to be around $1,200 in the U.S. Mirrorless would have to drop significantly in price to meet that expectation. Canon could just keep the 6DII in the lineup for an extra 2-3 years and let the price drop to $1,000 or less, as they watch the market and see if mirrorless is really going to take hold.
> 
> 7DIII will be a DSLR and likely the 90D as well. There are too many improvements needed in mirrorless technology before these cameras, along with the 5D and 1Dx, can be shifted to mirrorless.



You have to pay close attention to Sony, they don't play the game the way everyone else does. So yeah, the A7III is around $2K, making the 6DII look pretty good at $1300 for a full frame. But Sony keeps all their old gear on the market for years. They introduced the RX100VI this year and only took the original RX100 off the market about a month ago.

So bottom line, right now, the A7II is about $1000, the A7RII about $1600, nicely sandwiching the 6DII. Oh, and that A7II price includes a kit lens. That's what Canon and Nikon have been up against.


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## unfocused (Nov 20, 2018)

hendrik-sg said:


> In my opinion the big mess is, that R lenses can not be used on M Cameras...



I don't disagree, but I also believe that not having a "R" lens to EF mount adapter is a bigger problem. Some say it's not possible, and I don't know enough about the technology to disagree, but from a practical matter, I think this will hold back a lot of professionals from converting to "R" lenses and at the very least create a lot a resentment among their most lucrative and loyal customers.

Would I consider buying an "R" body and lens and then eventually start converting my entire system over to "R" if I could use those lenses on my 5DIV and 1DX II? Yes. Would I buy an "R" body and start duplicating all my lenses in the "R" mount? A resounding "No!" 

My strategy (which is not good news for Canon) is to get through the next generation of DSLRs and see how things shake out. I probably won't be investing in any new EF lenses unless something really compelling comes out (the mythical 150-500 f5.6), but I also won't be duplicating my kit with R bodies and lenses. I'm old enough that the next generation of DSLRs will probably last until I'm too old to take pictures.


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## unfocused (Nov 20, 2018)

hazydave said:


> You have to pay close attention to Sony, they don't play the game the way everyone else does. So yeah, the A7III is around $2K, making the 6DII look pretty good at $1300 for a full frame. But Sony keeps all their old gear on the market for years. They introduced the RX100VI this year and only took the original RX100 off the market about a month ago.
> 
> So bottom line, right now, the A7II is about $1000, the A7RII about $1600, nicely sandwiching the 6DII. Oh, and that A7II price includes a kit lens. That's what Canon and Nikon have been up against.



Yes. And, thinking about this a bit more, I wouldn't be surprised to see the 6DII remain on the market for years as Canon's bargain full frame ILC. The price with a 24-70 f4 kit lens could well settle in at close to the A7II price point in time.


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## preppyak (Nov 20, 2018)

Peter M said:


> I really hope Canon releases the 90D as a significant upgrade to the 80D, I just don't see the advantage of EVF and staring into a viewfinder with a 1/2" screen while trying to see WTF is going on.


Battery life is what kills mirrorless for me. Sony's a7III gets, at best, about half the battery life of what my 80D does. The previous models were way worse (I was churning through Sony batteries on a trip, while I never even had to charge my Canon). Then there's the over-heating in video, the overly expensive lenses, the slowness of AF with adapted lenses.

In truth, Canon is probably 3-4 years from having a fully realized RF lens line (Sony took ~4-5 years)...It'd be really weird to see Canon suddenly rushing everyone one direction when they usually are the slowest to change


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## nemophoto (Nov 20, 2018)

Having rented an EOS R for a week, I can safely say it does nothing to assuage my impression that mirrorless cameras suck. Maybe in 5 years that opinion will change, but there is nothing compelling about then for me. I used a friend's Sony a7r III and had the same opinion. The feeling I have shooting with these is one of being removed from the scene. I feel like I'm (rightfully so) watching a TV show where there is a slight broadcast delay. Mirrorless cameras are not fast acting. There is a blur in the view finder -- the Sony a9 included. No refresh rate compares with the Mark I human eyeball. I have been a CPS Member since 1982. I am not technologically adverse. I started using Photoshop in 1992. I converted entirely to a digital workflow for work in 2001. I'm a proponent of technology. I do not see where this advances my style of shooting or workflow. I voiced as much at CPS at Photo Expo. I'm sad to see Canon jump so strongly onto the mirrorless band wagon. But I guess we can thank all those who shoot with iPhones for this direction since they all are used to looking through an LCD.


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## Ian_of_glos (Nov 20, 2018)

nemophoto said:


> Having rented an EOS R for a week, I can safely say it does nothing to assuage my impression that mirrorless cameras suck. Maybe in 5 years that opinion will change, but there is nothing compelling about then for me. I used a friend's Sony a7r III and had the same opinion. The feeling I have shooting with these is one of being removed from the scene. I feel like I'm (rightfully so) watching a TV show where there is a slight broadcast delay. Mirrorless cameras are not fast acting. There is a blur in the view finder -- the Sony a9 included. No refresh rate compares with the Mark I human eyeball. I have been a CPS Member since 1982. I am not technologically adverse. I started using Photoshop in 1992. I converted entirely to a digital workflow for work in 2001. I'm a proponent of technology. I do not see where this advances my style of shooting or workflow. I voiced as much at CPS at Photo Expo. I'm sad to see Canon jump so strongly onto the mirrorless band wagon. But I guess we can thank all those who shoot with iPhones for this direction since they all are used to looking through an LCD.


Although I agree with your summary, I am not convinced that Canon have completely jumped onto the mirrorless bandwagon to the exclusion of all other technologies. After all they only have one full frame mirrorless option, and a handful of APS-C mirrorless cameras at the moment. The fact is that Canon have a lot of catching up to do before they have a compelling range of mirrorless products that can really compete with Sony, Fuji, Olympus and the rest. 
Canon have not announced that they plan to stop releasing new EF lenses and DLSRs and until they do I feel sure that they will offer their customers a choice, despite all the noise that emanates from the mirrorless fan club.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Nov 20, 2018)

nemophoto said:


> Having rented an EOS R for a week, I can safely say it does nothing to assuage my impression that mirrorless cameras suck. Maybe in 5 years that opinion will change, but there is nothing compelling about then for me. I used a friend's Sony a7r III and had the same opinion. The feeling I have shooting with these is one of being removed from the scene. I feel like I'm (rightfully so) watching a TV show where there is a slight broadcast delay. Mirrorless cameras are not fast acting. There is a blur in the view finder -- the Sony a9 included. No refresh rate compares with the Mark I human eyeball. I have been a CPS Member since 1982. I am not technologically adverse. I started using Photoshop in 1992. I converted entirely to a digital workflow for work in 2001. I'm a proponent of technology. I do not see where this advances my style of shooting or workflow. I voiced as much at CPS at Photo Expo. I'm sad to see Canon jump so strongly onto the mirrorless band wagon. But I guess we can thank all those who shoot with iPhones for this direction since they all are used to looking through an LCD.


I agree with you in that I'm not crazy about EVFs. But unfortunately, preserving the OVF is pretty limiting in terms of what a camera could theoretically be capable of. Face and eye recognition will only get better in the future. I'm sure that cameras in the future will begin to back in more and more advanced artificial intelligence features as well. They will probably be able to do things we haven't even thought of a camera being able to do. But all of that relies on the camera being able to see through the lens at all times, making an OVF not really possible.

In addition, once camera manufacturers figure out how to make a high resolution sensor with instantaneous readout, we'll be at the point of having a camera with absolutely no moving parts. No shutter, no mirror, nothing. This will do wonders for reliability. Concern over having a shutter failure will be a thing of the past. Not to mention having nothing in the camera moving makes its ability to have a high framerate pretty much unlimited, as long as the sensor readout and processor can keep up.

Last, I've seen my EOS R focus on things in low light that I know for a fact that my 5D4 never would have been able to. At a certain point you have to face the fact that having a separate sensor for autofocus from the sensor actually taking the photo has always been kind of a cheesy solution. By getting the mirror out of the way, you allow all of the light coming through the lens to go directly to the sensor, which is also handing autofocus, allowing it to focus in much darker conditions than a DSLR could, because half the light was getting diverted up into the viewfinder.

I'm completely with you in that even the very best EVFs still don't feel right to me. There's still a little disconnect. But in a couple months of using the EOS R, I've gotten mroe and more used to it. I'll miss having an OVF, but I can't deny the fact that keeping an OVF stands in the way of a lot of new technology and better performance that will be coming to mirrorless cameras as time goes on.


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## AlanF (Nov 20, 2018)

Del Paso said:


> A 60 MP, and diffraction sets in at f 4???????
> Macro photography means at least f 8, so please Canon, give us reasonable MP (50 max!)


The diffraction limited aperture for the 50 mpx 5DSR is f/6.7. A 60 mpx lowers the dla to f/5.6, not f/4.


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## hazydave (Nov 20, 2018)

GMCPhotographics said:


> The AF in the Eos R is very lacking and the "photographer's experience" is appalling. So no...I would not be looking for a 5Dx mirrorless replacement. If you think Canon wold ditch their sales...then you have been drinking too much EOS R marketing kool aid. DSLR's are here to stay, as is Eos R. One is not a replacement of the other but both have their place in the market.



It will be interesting to see what Canon actually does. They did very well outside the USA with EOS M, unlike Nikon and their consumer mirrorless system. But both Nikon and Canon are dead last in the serious mirrorless race. They can expect to get their own users buying mirrorless -- the launch points of both EOS R and Nikon Z seem aimed directly at the Sony A7. But they can't expect many new buyers from outside accepting that the need adapters for most lenses. So if they really want to be competitive with Sony and even Leica/Panasonic/ Sigma, that means building their systems fast.

So, does that leave room for new EF bodies and lenses? And at what pace? Is Canon going to let Nikon get even more of an advantage over them in mirrorless? Are they going to make EF buyers fell like Sony A-Mount users? Is there a middle that doesn't actually do both? And will Canon ever catch up to Sony on sensors: BSI and stacked chips?


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## hazydave (Nov 20, 2018)

preppyak said:


> Battery life is what kills mirrorless for me. Sony's a7III gets, at best, about half the battery life of what my 80D does. The previous models were way worse (I was churning through Sony batteries on a trip, while I never even had to charge my Canon). Then there's the over-heating in video, the overly expensive lenses, the slowness of AF with adapted lenses.
> 
> In truth, Canon is probably 3-4 years from having a fully realized RF lens line (Sony took ~4-5 years)...It'd be really weird to see Canon suddenly rushing everyone one direction when they usually are the slowest to change



Battery life on a DSLR is pretty consistent. I get about 1,000 shots on the 6D no matter what. On mirrorless, it's much more variable. I bought a Sony RX10 last Spring, same battery as the A7 and CIPA rated for 400 shots. At a four day music festival, lots of fast sports-like shooting, I got 2000-2500 shots. 

I agree about the system. Not just glass, but a variety of bodies, too, will be needed to flesh out the system. But they have finite resources. Too hard a push leaves the EF users concerned, too weak a push and they wind up in last place among the ever-increasing number of FF mirrorless systems.


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## Valdormar_Hauslendale (Nov 20, 2018)

Being an EOS-1 shooter from the first release back in film days. As long as the EOS-1D line continues.
I do not care about any other builds or form factors. The day Canon decides to scrap the EOS-1D line
is the day I will make my Deardorff 8x10 my main go to camera once again.


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## tron (Nov 20, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Yes I do, and yes I am.
> 
> It adds unnecessary vibration when doing high-resolution macro photography which is why I bought it. I have to use mirror lockup and a multi-second delay to kill all vibration and then multi-shot stack images take ages.
> 
> Electronic shutter as on the EOS R is a gamechanger for this.


I understand that this is a special case but then why not live view? 
I use my 5DsR for birding and I have no issues with mirror (even at speeds arithmetically lower than lens' focal length by taking advantage of IS).
I use the silent shutter mode. I do not know if that helps with no mirror issues for me.


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## dcm (Nov 21, 2018)

cayenne said:


> I was of the thought, that this first EOS-R **IS** the mirrorless replacement for the 6D.....? It doesn't seem to be beefy enough to be the replacement for the 5D series......
> 
> C



Not sure if Canon is lining things up so the R line goes head to head with the D line. The R seems slotted between the 6DII and 5DIV, this allows it to draw from both groups of customers. It would not surprise me to see this continue.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 21, 2018)

tron said:


> I understand that this is a special case but then why not live view?
> I use my 5DsR for birding and I have no issues with mirror (even at speeds arithmetically lower than lens' focal length by taking advantage of IS).
> I use the silent shutter mode. I do not know if that helps with no mirror issues for me.



There isn't a silent shutter mode on the 5DSR. There's a 'quieter shutter' - but it still has a physical shutter moving and it still generates vibration. The EOS R can take photos without any parts inside the camera moving, which is what we need.

I also prefer EVF over OVF in general nowdays.


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## AlanF (Nov 21, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> There isn't a silent shutter mode on the 5DSR. There's a 'quieter shutter' - but it still has a physical shutter moving and it still generates vibration. The EOS R can take photos without any parts inside the camera moving, which is what we need.
> 
> I also prefer EVF over OVF in general nowdays.





jolyonralph said:


> There isn't a silent shutter mode on the 5DSR. There's a 'quieter shutter' - but it still has a physical shutter moving and it still generates vibration. The EOS R can take photos without any parts inside the camera moving, which is what we need.
> 
> I also prefer EVF over OVF in general nowdays.


You would be unlikely to prefer EVF if you were a bird photographer as we use the camera/telephoto lens as a spotting scope and stare down the lens for ages. Not only is the OVF more easy on the eye but using the EVF in this way runs down the battery. I don't have any problems with mirror slap with the 5DSR and I am anal compulsive about resolution and a fierce cropper.


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## RGF (Nov 21, 2018)

I will not be sad to see the 5Ds (R) go. It was launched too quickly with little thought to where it fits within the canon line. It purpose seems to be out MP Nikon.


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## tron (Nov 21, 2018)

RGF said:


> I will not be sad to see the 5Ds (R) go. It was launched too quickly with little thought to where it fits within the canon line. It purpose seems to be out MP Nikon.


I could say I wouldn't be sad to not see the EOS R line move on but I have not issues with other people's cameras.
You do not have a purpose for it but I have taken very nice bird shots with it...


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## AlanF (Nov 21, 2018)

RGF said:


> I will not be sad to see the 5Ds (R) go. It was launched too quickly with little thought to where it fits within the canon line. It purpose seems to be out MP Nikon.


That is a very narrow viewpoint. The 5DS series is used by those who need or want very high resolution. Just because you don’t see the need for high resolution does not mean that there is no place for a high resolution body and it doesn’t fit in the Canon line up. It is a safe bet that Canon will produce a 5DS successor, but it might be in the R series.


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## Sporgon (Nov 22, 2018)

RGF said:


> I will not be sad to see the 5Ds (R) go. It was launched too quickly with little thought to where it fits within the canon line. It purpose seems to be out MP Nikon.


Have you used one ? It's an unforgiving camera but that doesn't make it bad. When used well the results are stunning.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 22, 2018)

AlanF said:


> You would be unlikely to prefer EVF if you were a bird photographer as we use the camera/telephoto lens as a spotting scope and stare down the lens for ages. Not only is the OVF more easy on the eye but using the EVF in this way runs down the battery. I don't have any problems with mirror slap with the 5DSR and I am anal compulsive about resolution and a fierce cropper.



Agreed, it's not the kind of photography I use my 5DSR for, but I can absolutely understand your preference! Fortunately Canon make cameras for us all now. 

I was actually hoping that Canon would come through with a combined OVF/EVF display but I suspect that is probably low down on their priorities right now.


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## RGF (Nov 22, 2018)

Sporgon said:


> Have you used one ? It's an unforgiving camera but that doesn't make it bad. When used well the results are stunning.



Yes I have one. Very mixed feelings about it. Seems like a one off camera with little future. 5D M5 may be high 30 mp which will be enough for most of us.


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## RGF (Nov 22, 2018)

AlanF said:


> That is a very narrow viewpoint. The 5DS series is used by those who need or want very high resolution. Just because you don’t see the need for high resolution does not mean that there is no place for a high resolution body and it doesn’t fit in the Canon line up. It is a safe bet that Canon will produce a 5DS successor, but it might be in the R series.



May be. But as the 5D M5 increases in MP, the 5DS line will be forced to higher MP. at some point the sensor will fail ...


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## RGF (Nov 22, 2018)

tron said:


> I could say I wouldn't be sad to not see the EOS R line move on but I have not issues with other people's cameras.
> You do not have a purpose for it but I have taken very nice bird shots with it...


]

In bright light it works well. in poor light, ...


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## AlanF (Nov 22, 2018)

RGF said:


> ]
> 
> In bright light it works well. in poor light, ...


Here we ago again, trotting out the myth about noise of the 5DS. Have you extensively compared the 5DS with the 5DIV? This is what Bryan write in TDP after carefully comparing the 5DIV and the 5DS: "As just said, downsampling can improve noise levels and another pair of cameras being considered by 5D Mark IV shoppers are the 5Ds and 5Ds R. These cameras have tremendous resolution ready for downsampling. In a pixel-level comparison, the 5D IV is clearly superior in noise levels at higher ISO settings. Downside the 5Ds image to match the 5D IV's resolution and ... the 5D IV remains superior. However, the difference is very small "
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV.aspx
I have just come back from fortnight's safari having taken 3000+ shots with the 5DIV and my wife the same with the 5DSR, and both performed comparably regarding noise, and these involved considerable cropping and pushing both bodies to their limits on occasion.


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## AlanF (Nov 22, 2018)

RGF said:


> May be. But as the 5D M5 increases in MP, the 5DS line will be forced to higher MP. at some point the sensor will fail ...


And how will it fail?


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## Sporgon (Nov 22, 2018)

RGF said:


> Yes I have one. Very mixed feelings about it. Seems like a one off camera with little future. 5D M5 may be high 30 mp which will be enough for most of us.


I agree that 30 + mp is enough for most of us, more than enough in fact. In comparison 50 mp is relatively niche, but remember that in all these comparisons we are splitting hairs in the difference, and I’ll split hairs by stating that the colour definition on the 5DS when used from a very steady platform with a good lens is the best I’ve see from digital. In making comparisons you have to take into account the native size of the output and the 5DS is pretty large which works against it. If you reduce the size or increase the output of a lesser mp camera to the same size you get fair comparison.

But it’s horses for courses and I’d guess that Canon sell around 1 5DS for every 10 - 15 5DIV and if that’s the case it’s inevitable that most people will prefer the 5DIV.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 23, 2018)

RGF said:


> [the 5Ds (R)] was launched too quickly *with little thought to where it fits within the canon line*.



I find that unlikely to the point of absurdity.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 23, 2018)

Having both a 5DSR and EOS R here and comparing shots between the two it's clear that the 5DSR wins outright on resolution and overall sharpness. Once you start shooting without an AA filter you really notice the softness when you shoot with a camera that has one. Digitally sharpening an image in post is never the same. Cropping on the 5DSR is far more forgiving.

Of course, with up to 8 frames per second on the EOS R and the ability to write to super-fast UHS-II cards, it is a far more capable camera for fast-action work than the 5DSR.


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## RGF (Nov 23, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I find that unlikely to the point of absurdity.



Disagree - IMO they launched to sandwich the D800/D810 but did not think abou the LT viability of the product if it was not a major product. Canon has introduced interesting technologies only to abandon them shortly thereafter (e.g., eye control focus).


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## RGF (Nov 23, 2018)

AlanF said:


> And how will it fail?



as photosites get smaller they will gather less light. Plus diffraction from the aperture will hinder higher resolution. Right now diffraction negatively impacts the 5DS around f7 or f8.


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## AlanF (Nov 23, 2018)

RGF said:


> as photosites get smaller they will gather less light. Plus diffraction from the aperture will hinder higher resolution. Right now diffraction negatively impacts the 5DS around f7 or f8.


Having smaller photosites and a decreasing DLA does not imply in any way that a sensor will "fail". 1" sensors work absolutely fine and have a pixel density equivalent to a 140 mpx FF sensor and are diffraction limited at ~f/4.


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## AlanF (Nov 23, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Having both a 5DSR and EOS R here and comparing shots between the two it's clear that the 5DSR wins outright on resolution and overall sharpness. Once you start shooting without an AA filter you really notice the softness when you shoot with a camera that has one. Digitally sharpening an image in post is never the same. Cropping on the 5DSR is far more forgiving.
> 
> Of course, with up to 8 frames per second on the EOS R and the ability to write to super-fast UHS-II cards, it is a far more capable camera for fast-action work than the 5DSR.


I agree with the first paragraph, but Canon claims only 5 fps in continuous AF. In practice it is worse than that:
"_With Servo AF enabled (continuous autofocus), Canon claims the EOS R's max burst speed is 5.0 fps, however we didn't test that in the lab. When shooting Dual Pixel RAW files, the camera drops down to Continuous Low mode which is rated at 3.0 fps for standard files and 2.2 fps for Dual Pixel RAW files. In the lab, the Canon R managed a slightly higher 2.4 fps when shooting DP-RAW or DP-RAW+JPEG files._" https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-eos-r/canon-eos-rA6.HTM

So, the EOS R is slower than the 5DSR in practice for fast action.


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## Sporgon (Nov 23, 2018)

Not sure the 5DS was ever intended for "fast action work".


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## nchoh (Nov 23, 2018)

RGF said:


> I will not be sad to see the 5Ds (R) go. It was launched too quickly with little thought to where it fits within the canon line. It purpose seems to be out MP Nikon.





RGF said:


> Disagree - IMO they launched to sandwich the D800/D810 but did not think abou the LT viability of the product if it was not a major product. Canon has introduced interesting technologies only to abandon them shortly thereafter (e.g., eye control focus).



You make a whole bunch of assertions without any rationale given;

It was launched too quickly
with little thought to where it fits within the canon line
It purpose seems to be out MP Nikon
they launched to sandwich the D800/D810
did not think abou the LT viability of the product

You put out an amazingly bad analogy;
Eye control is a technology. EOS R is a camera and that is part of a new system with accompanying lenses and future bodies.

Even if it is your own opinion you should at least give some reasonable explanation as to how you come to your conclusions. To suggest that Canon would drop the R line because it did not continue using eye control focus is ludicrous.


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## jd7 (Nov 23, 2018)

AlanF said:


> I agree with the first paragraph, but Canon claims only 5 fps in continuous AF. In practice it is worse than that:
> "_With Servo AF enabled (continuous autofocus), Canon claims the EOS R's max burst speed is 5.0 fps, however we didn't test that in the lab. When shooting Dual Pixel RAW files, the camera drops down to Continuous Low mode which is rated at 3.0 fps for standard files and 2.2 fps for Dual Pixel RAW files. In the lab, the Canon R managed a slightly higher 2.4 fps when shooting DP-RAW or DP-RAW+JPEG files._" https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-eos-r/canon-eos-rA6.HTM
> 
> So, the EOS R is slower than the 5DSR in practice for fast action.


Agree the EOS R does only 5 fps in servo/continuous AF but not sure it's correct to say it's worse than that in practise. The 2.4 and 2.2 fps figures quoted above are for dual pixel raw files, but dual pixel raw Is slow with any camera, isn't it?

So far as i know, you do get 5 fps with standard raw files with servo/continuous AF with release priority on the EOS R. I understand it drops to 3 fps if you want tracking priority but from the bits and pieces I've read so far the accuracy with release priority is about the same as with tracking priority anyway(?). So, as I understand it, basically the EOS R and 5DSr both get 5 fps with servo/continuous AF with standard raw files. Is that incorrect?


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## Aussie shooter (Nov 24, 2018)

jd7 said:


> Agree the EOS R does only 5 fps in servo/continuous AF but not sure it's correct to say it's worse than that in practise. The 2.4 and 2.2 fps figures quoted above are for dual pixel raw files, but dual pixel raw ous slow with any camera, isn't it?
> 
> So far as i know, you do get 5 fps with standard raw files with servo/continuous AF with release priority on the EOS R. I understand it drops to 3 fps if you want tracking priority but from the bits and pieces I've read so far the accuracy with release priority is about the same as with tracking priority anyway(?). So, as I understand it, basically the EOS R and 5DSr both get 5 fps with servo/continuous AF with standard raw files. Is that incorrect?



That is correct. 5fps for action. Not a speed speed demon by any means but acceptable at a pinch if you use it as an 'all rounder'.


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## AlanF (Nov 24, 2018)

It's not just the 5 fps, it's the lack of live feedback at this speed. This is what cameralabs writes in its review: "_Even at this relatively leisurely burst speed though, the EOS R won’t provide live feedback between frames so while there’s no blackout, you will be looking at the last frame shot, not what’s actually happening right now. This doesn’t pose much of an issue with subjects approaching face-on, but unpredictable subjects moving from side to side become much harder to follow_." You are looking at a subject where it was a 1/5s ago, which won't work for birds in flight across your path etc. The 5DSR, on the other hand, is quite decent for birds in flight.


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## jd7 (Nov 24, 2018)

AlanF said:


> It's not just the 5 fps, it's the lack of live feedback at this speed. This is what cameralabs writes in its review: "_Even at this relatively leisurely burst speed though, the EOS R won’t provide live feedback between frames so while there’s no blackout, you will be looking at the last frame shot, not what’s actually happening right now. This doesn’t pose much of an issue with subjects approaching face-on, but unpredictable subjects moving from side to side become much harder to follow_." You are looking at a subject where it was a 1/5s ago, which won't work for birds in flight across your path etc. The 5DSR, on the other hand, is quite decent for birds in flight.


Fair enough. I think The Digital Picture review of the EOS R makes a generally similar comment.

I am much more interested in the EOS R than I expected to be, but I'm still not sure what I really think about it. Guess I need to try to spend some more time playing with one.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 24, 2018)

AlanF said:


> It's not just the 5 fps, it's the lack of live feedback at this speed. This is what cameralabs writes in its review: "_Even at this relatively leisurely burst speed though, the EOS R won’t provide live feedback between frames so while there’s no blackout, you will be looking at the last frame shot, not what’s actually happening right now. This doesn’t pose much of an issue with subjects approaching face-on, but unpredictable subjects moving from side to side become much harder to follow_." You are looking at a subject where it was a 1/5s ago, which won't work for birds in flight across your path etc. The 5DSR, on the other hand, is quite decent for birds in flight.


If not addressed, that might be a deal breaker even for whatever FF mirrorless is coming next. Just seems so limiting and awkward. Long live the SLR!


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## BillB (Nov 24, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> If not addressed, that might be a deal breaker even for whatever FF mirrorless is coming next. Just seems so limiting and awkward. Long live the SLR!


Maybe a 7DIII DSLR after all?


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 25, 2018)

RGF said:


> Disagree - IMO they launched to sandwich the D800/D810 but did not think abou the LT viability of the product if it was not a major product. Canon has introduced interesting technologies only to abandon them shortly thereafter (e.g., eye control focus).



They may make mistakes now and again, but to go through not only camera development but also semiconductor development, testing, verification and validation, and into production with a product they haven’t considered how to market is very un-Canon


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## unfocused (Nov 25, 2018)

BillB said:


> Maybe a 7DIII DSLR after all?


I don't think the 7DIII has ever been in doubt. Timing, yes. But development, No.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 25, 2018)

AlanF said:


> So, the EOS R is slower than the 5DSR in practice for fast action.



Yes and no... Once you hit buffer limits and start writing to card the slower write speed of the 5DSR plus the larger raw size (I'm not bothering with DP RAW on the R) are a massive issue. Putting in a fast UHS-II card in the R makes it a much more enjoyable experience.


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## RGF (Nov 25, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Yes and no... Once you hit buffer limits and start writing to card the slower write speed of the 5DSR plus the larger raw size (I'm not bothering with DP RAW on the R) are a massive issue. Putting in a fast UHS-II card in the R makes it a much more enjoyable experience.



agree. The UHS-II speeds are impressive


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## RGF (Nov 25, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> They may make mistakes now and again, but to go through not only camera development but also semiconductor development, testing, verification and validation, and into production with a product they haven’t considered how to market is very un-Canon



time will tell. I think that the ultra high MP camera will slow fade away in favor of high quality 30-40 MP cameras. Can the market support the extreme quality lenses needed to get benefit of 50+ MP sensors? In the end I don't think the 5DS line will do well. Canon my keep it to sandwich the D850 ..


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 25, 2018)

RGF said:


> time will tell. I think that the ultra high MP camera will slow fade away in favor of high quality 30-40 MP cameras. Can the market support the extreme quality lenses needed to get benefit of 50+ MP sensors? In the end I don't think the 5DS line will do well. Canon my keep it to sandwich the D850 ..



Yah it certainly might not be a major success. All I’m saying is they must have thought about their lineup, they didn’t haphazardly expend all the NRE. I bet when they decided to end the 1Ds line they did so with the plan of moving the less demanding product downmarket (even if selling it at all was a miscalculation).

I expect very high resolution cameras to remain niche, though, especially as readout speed processing power improves, affording stacking techniques in camera.


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## AlanF (Nov 25, 2018)

RGF said:


> time will tell. I think that the ultra high MP camera will slow fade away in favor of high quality 30-40 MP cameras. Can the market support the extreme quality lenses needed to get benefit of 50+ MP sensors? In the end I don't think the 5DS line will do well. Canon my keep it to sandwich the D850 ..


The D850 is already 45.7 mpx, the A7RIII, 42.4 and Sony is rumoured as producing 60 mpx for themselves and third parties. No way is 30-40 going to be the norm for high quality: it will be 40-60 mpx for the next few years, with less dense sensors for cheaper products or where speed is the major factor.

And, if you think modern lenses are not up to high resolution sensors, look at photozone.de MTF measurements where they are now using both the 5DSR and 5DIII and you can see the increases in resolution.


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## RGF (Nov 26, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Yah it certainly might not be a major success. All I’m saying is they must have thought about their lineup, they didn’t haphazardly expend all the NRE. I bet when they decided to end the 1Ds line they did so with the plan of moving the less demanding product downmarket (even if selling it at all was a miscalculation).
> 
> I expect very high resolution cameras to remain niche, though, especially as readout speed processing power improves, affording stacking techniques in camera.



Perhaps niche for another cycle. After that? The 5Ds was a stop gap body ...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 26, 2018)

RGF said:


> time will tell. I think that the ultra high MP camera will slow fade away in favor of high quality 30-40 MP cameras. Can the market support the extreme quality lenses needed to get benefit of 50+ MP sensors? In the end I don't think the 5DS line will do well. Canon my keep it to sandwich the D850 ..



The fact is that there are those who will purchase a high MP body. Even a cheap lens will get higher resolution with a 60 mp body, thats a basic of optics. While the gain may not be proportional, its still a gain.


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## RGF (Nov 26, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Yah it certainly might not be a major success. All I’m saying is they must have thought about their lineup, they didn’t haphazardly expend all the NRE. I bet when they decided to end the 1Ds line they did so with the plan of moving the less demanding product downmarket (even if selling it at all was a miscalculation).
> 
> I expect very high resolution cameras to remain niche, though, especially as readout speed processing power improves, affording stacking techniques in camera.



Wonder if Canon will take use a technique from the MF cameras. Shift the sensor a fraction of a distance of a photosensor. Works for still life that does not move.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 26, 2018)

RGF said:


> Wonder if Canon will take use a technique from the MF cameras. Shift the sensor a fraction of a distance of a photosensor. Works for still life that does not move.


So far they seem adverse to floating the sensor.


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## ShermN8r (Nov 26, 2018)

Enough of the M and R revolution talks, there are still many in force who desire to see and will continue to wait for the 7D Mark III...The 5D III & IV are forces to be reckoned with but some us us still want a crop that will deliver 30 MP, 10 fps, touch/tilt screen, WiFi, NFC...Come on Canon, bring it on!


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## SaP34US (Nov 26, 2018)

Could it be that aren't Canon going "scrap" 5DsR, 7DII, and 80D for two or three Mirrorless Cameras? I think that the two crop sensor cameras will either combine the two models or have one for each of them. The way I would deal with "crop" sensor make it ff but set default as crop in stead of ff and use RF mount.


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## 4fun (Nov 27, 2018)

SaP34US said:


> . The way I would deal with "crop" sensor make it ff but set default as crop in stead of ff and use RF mount.



would not work in real life to replace crop-sensor DSLRs, because R-mount crop-sensor cameras would be "too large" compared to what is really needed and to competition. even more importantly, they would be too expensive and not sell well. xxD class class buyers are typically people on a limited gear budget, not willing or able to pay for FF-sensor camera body at or near current prices (north of 2k for body only).

furthermore, "firmware nerfing" FF cameras to "crop only mode" would inevitably lead to all sorts of "unlocking" attempts. folks would buy the somewhat less expensive "crop" model and run "Magic Lantern"-style firmware or any other such "hack" on it to unlock FF. not a good scenario for Canon ...

Also, with R mount on camera users could only buy expensive RF lenses (FF glass) as native lenses (in addition to using existing EF-/EF-S glass with adapter).

with EOS M crop-sensor cameras they get
* compact gear
* with very good IQ and very decent performance at least on par with xxD
* at much better prices (eg M50 half price of 80D, 1/4 the cost of EOS R)
* can use all existing EF/EF-S glass with adapter
* get compact, good and relatively inexpensive native EF-M glass

APS-C crop sensor cameras with R mount simply do not make sense. neither technically nor commercially. Not for Canon and not for customers. it ain't going to happen.

All Canon crop-sensor DSLRs will be replaced by EOS M system. i am also convinced they don't need to offer as many models with only slightly different features.

a lineup of only 4 well-defined EOS M bodies can easily cover the entire spectrum from
* xxxxD (lowest cost, entry level, EOS M100 successors, tiny size, last gen sensor and AF, no EVF, simple UI)
* to xxxD/xxD class = M50/M5 and successors,
* to 7D class = slightly bigger grip than M5, top-notch AF and fps, full weathersealing, decent battery (still smaller and far less expensive than any EOS R model).


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## 4fun (Nov 27, 2018)

ShermN8r said:


> with but some us us still want a crop that will deliver 30 MP, 10 fps, touch/tilt screen, WiFi, NFC...Come on Canon, bring it on!



can easily be done in an "EOS M7" ... new 26MP sensor, top-notch DP-AF [with Eye tracking ofc], high fps, really big RAW buffer, somewhat more grip, LP-E6N battery for more juice, full weathersealing, fully articulated screen, WIFI/NFC/Camera Connect implementation as good as or even better than in M50, USD/€ 1499 = fully competitive match in specs and price with Fuji XT-3. Smaller and less expensive than any EOS R. 

Slapping mirror or R mount not needed to replace 7D II.


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## BillB (Nov 27, 2018)

4fun said:


> can easily be done in an "EOS M7" ... new 26MP sensor, top-notch DP-AF [with Eye tracking ofc], high fps, really big RAW buffer, somewhat more grip, LP-E6N battery for more juice, full weathersealing, fully articulated screen, WIFI/NFC/Camera Connect implementation as good as or even better than in M50, USD/€ 1499 = fully competitive match in specs and price with Fuji XT-3. Smaller and less expensive than any EOS R.
> 
> Slapping mirror or R mount not needed to replace 7D II.


The question seems to be whether there are enough people out there who want to use R lenses on a crop camera to create a viable market niche.


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## 4fun (Nov 27, 2018)

BillB said:


> The question seems to be whether there are enough people out there who want to use R lenses on a crop camera to create a viable market niche.



yes. I seriously doubt it. 

1. those with "ample budget" will go with 2 EOS R bodies - 1x speed, 1x high rez - plus all of R lenses, using existing EF L glass during transition

2. those with limited budget / "7D class" users, mostly amateurs/semi-pro's into birding/wildlife etc. - will (have to) go with EOS M for crop plus EF teles. Good news is, that one can probably pick up EF L teles at very reasonable second-hand prices only a few short years from now - as soon as the new DO superteles in R-mount become available and "hi-end" tele users switch from EF to RF.


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## Random Orbits (Nov 27, 2018)

4fun said:


> can easily be done in an "EOS M7" ... new 26MP sensor, top-notch DP-AF [with Eye tracking ofc], high fps, really big RAW buffer, somewhat more grip, LP-E6N battery for more juice, full weathersealing, fully articulated screen, WIFI/NFC/Camera Connect implementation as good as or even better than in M50, USD/€ 1499 = fully competitive match in specs and price with Fuji XT-3. Smaller and less expensive than any EOS R.
> 
> Slapping mirror or R mount not needed to replace 7D II.



Except that there are users that use large lenses on the 7Ds and the M's don't handle large lenses well.

I'd rather see the R full frame and R crop like the EF/EF-S pairing. That preserves the upgrade path. The M system can stay where it is. It replaces the powershot line with the flexibility of changing lenses.


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## 4fun (Nov 27, 2018)

Random Orbits said:


> Except that there are users that use large lenses on the 7Ds and the M's don't handle large lenses well.



that's why i expect a mirrorfree "7D III" in form of a slightly chunkier and higher performance EOS M5 successor.


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## Random Orbits (Nov 27, 2018)

4fun said:


> that's why i expect a mirrorfree "7D III" in form of a slightly chunkier and higher performance EOS M5 successor.


The issue is that the EOS M ecosystem can not use RF lenses. I had a 7DII and used the 70-200 and 100-400s on it natively. Switching from crop to FF was easy because it used the same mount. One can use EF 70-200/100-400 on the M with the adapter because there are no RF counterparts. However, as Canon puts more development in RF, EF development will eventually cease. People will want to put their FF RF lenses onto the crop sensor, and they won't be able to because RF and EF-M are incompatible. That is a horrible feeder path to FF for Canon.

It makes more sense to leave EF-M where it is. Small bodies with a few small lenses. If Canon wants an APS-C feeder to FF, the RF mount is the way to do it. A few RF-S zooms and users will be able to migrate easily from crop to FF (easier than the EF-S to EF path now). The cameras can detect the RF-S lenses and save files that are compatible with the reduced image circle.


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## Rocky (Nov 28, 2018)

Random Orbits said:


> The issue is that the EOS M ecosystem can not use RF lenses.
> It makes more sense to leave EF-M where it is. Small bodies with a few small lenses. If Canon wants an APS-C feeder to FF, the RF mount is the way to do it. A few RF-S zooms and users will be able to migrate easily from crop to FF (easier than the EF-S to EF path now). The cameras can detect the RF-S lenses and save files that are compatible with the reduced image circle.


What other company has provided the migrating path to FF? What is the percentage of APS-C user migrate to FF? Do you really think that Canon will spend its resource to develope RF-S lenses and APS-C RF body in anticipating people will migrate from APS-C RF to FF RF?


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## Random Orbits (Nov 28, 2018)

Rocky said:


> What other company has provided the migrating path to FF? What is the percentage of APS-C user migrate to FF? Do you really think that Canon will spend its resource to develope RF-S lenses and APS-C RF body in anticipating people will migrate from APS-C RF to FF RF?



Nikon and Canon already do for their DSLRs.

I can't tell you what Canon will do, but I think they should and the rumor that they are considering it means that it has crossed their mind. The question isn't what is the percentage of APS-C users migrate to FF because the answer is probably low. The relevant question is what percentage of Canon FF users were Canon APS-C users previously, and I'm guessing that it's a much higher percentage. People stay with systems because of their sunk cost in glass not bodies. People are not excited about Canon bodies, but they are excited about Canon lenses. Where do you think Canon FF users come from? Sony? Fuji? Nikon? 

DSLRs got its market share and popularity by developing/marketing/selling APS-C format cameras. I started with the 20D with a kit lens. I preferred Nikons at the time but Canon was cheaper (system cost including lenses). I eventually got the EF-S duo of 10-22 and 17-55, but then bought the 100L and 70-200L. When I decided to switch to FF, I chose Canon because of the 70-200L. If Canon does not maintain that link, then the M users will have lost a big incentive for remaining with Canon and that is a poor business strategy when their video specs/lack of IBIS/etc. are behind its competition.

I get the purpose of the M system. I've had a few of them and I currently have the M5. I choose it for portability. Not usability nor IQ. I also have the EF-M adapter, but the only time I use it is with an EF 24-105 atop a tripod for video.


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## tron (Nov 28, 2018)

4fun said:


> that's why i expect a mirrorfree "7D III" in form of a slightly chunkier and higher performance EOS M5 successor.


Are you a pro, amateur, or a couch surfer ? I cannot believe you have no idea of the use of cameras for birding! EVFs cannot do BIF (EOS R cannot!). And they are not even useful for still birds since there is a need for someone to use the viewfinder a lot of time so good bye battery.


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## 4fun (Nov 28, 2018)

@tron: i am pure amateur, don't make money on images. No birder, like most Canon users. For whatever reasons, they are strongly over-represented on this forum. 

As I said before, there might still be a (final) DSLR iteration ... "7D III". But I consider a somewhat higher-end mirrorfree M more likely. Transition is in full swing. 

Also, there are images of birds captured with mirrorfree cameras. It sure is possible. 
https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/best/mirrorless-cameras-for-wildlife-and-bird-photography/


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## tron (Nov 28, 2018)

4fun said:


> @tron: i am pure amateur, don't make money on images. No birder, like most Canon users. For whatever reasons, they are strongly over-represented on this forum.
> 
> As I said before, there might still be a (final) DSLR iteration ... "7D III". But I consider a somewhat higher-end mirrorfree M more likely. Transition is in full swing.
> 
> ...


Of course it is possible if they do not fly and in general cooperate with the photographers. Also,
it will be 100% possible if the speed of EVFs increases alot (but trully ... alot). This will leave the battery issues of course  ... which will be solved by either a battery pack .... oh wait that way the camera will weigh like a DSLR or when the nuclear batteries will be introduced  (OK kidding of course but we never know...)


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## 4fun (Nov 28, 2018)

tron said:


> Of course it is possible if they do not fly and in general cooperate with the photographers.



from the above link. Captured with Sony A9, 100-400 lens plus 1.4x TC. Birdie appears to be flying. 
But ... maybe it was co-operative and stood still for a minute or so on the water surface. Maybe it is even taxidermied. Who knows these days when even major wildlife image contests are won with stuffed anteaters and trained wolves?   






A9, 1/2500, f/8, ISO 3200 – 100-400mm GM + TC 1.4x

Source/Copyrights see -> https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/best/mirrorless-cameras-for-wildlife-and-bird-photography/


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## tron (Nov 28, 2018)

Or maybe the above was a non central crop or the photographer prefocused. Whatever! Still Canon EOS R is not the best for this photography. Add to these the fact that fps drop to 3 in Servo with focusing priority and it makes it an entry level camera for birding, etc...


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 28, 2018)

tron said:


> Still Canon EOS R is not the best for this photography.



It’s unclear to me that the EOS R is the best for, well, anything. 

That’s a fundamentally different discussion than whether EVF can be used for BIF.


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## tron (Nov 29, 2018)

There is a compromise (Non slapping mirror, optical viewfinder) for this kind of photography but the companies didn't go for it:

Canon EOS RT, EOS 1Rs Sony A99 and A99 II. I had EOS RT. Nice camera.


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## 3kramd5 (Nov 29, 2018)

tron said:


> There is a compromise (Non slapping mirror, optical viewfinder) ... Sony A99 and A99 II.



Neither have optical viewfinders. They use a mirror (beam splitter) for off sensor PDAF, but the view finders are electronic


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## 4fun (Nov 29, 2018)

tron said:


> There is a compromise (Non slapping mirror, optical viewfinder) for this kind of photography but the companies didn't go for it:
> 
> Canon EOS RT, EOS 1Rs Sony A99 and A99 II. I had EOS RT. Nice camera.



fixed mirror ... yes, only a compromise. in all the old concepts (eg Canon EOS RT, Sony SLTs) the semi-transparent pellicle mirror in the lightpath diverts some of the precious light away from the image. and the cameras were neither smaller nor less expensive than regular DSLRs, so all such constructions never really got much traction in the market.

only current solution that combines OVF and EVF (user switchable; plus electronic rangefinder functionality) in digital cameras is Fuji's hybrid viewfinder as implemented in some of their cameras, eg X-Pro 2 

unfortunately Fuji X-Pro 2 (launched 2016) only has an APS-C sensor not FF, pedestrian AF and no DSLR-like responsiveness, not good for sports/fast-paced action. 

to me it is also unclear, whether Fuji will continue or abandon this hybrid VF approach, since their latest "flagship" cameras X-T3 (and X- H1) have EVFs only and there has been no successor to X-Pro 2 up to now. i think sales were rather low. but then, i have not been following Fuji products closely since i am not interested personally.


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## ShermN8r (Nov 29, 2018)

BillB said:


> The question seems to be whether there are enough people out there who want to use R lenses on a crop camera to create a viable market niche.


I have a FujiFilm X-T20 mirrorless, I am not interested in any EOS M or R series. I only purchased the Fujifilm to travel lighter and it proved it's value this past weekend in Florida.


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## tron (Dec 19, 2018)

@ShermN8r When I needed a small system for landscape photos (in addition to my 5DsR 100-400 II combo for birding and walking) I took a 200D (SL2) with a 10-18 zoom lens. It was worth more than its weight in gold IQ and weightwise


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## tron (Dec 20, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> ...
> 
> Of course, with up to 8 frames per second on the EOS R and the ability to write to super-fast UHS-II cards, it is a far more capable camera for fast-action work than the 5DSR.


This is a wrong argument:

1. EVF cannot handle the speed of fast action. Just ask BIF shooters.
2. You have to use it in ONE-SHOT mode to achieve 8fps. It is 5fps for AI-SERVO with release priority and 3fps for AI-SERVO focus priority.


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## YuengLinger (Dec 20, 2018)

"8 frames per second" in One-Shot???

*This is one of the most misleading specifications ever, pretty much false advertising.*
Try it! Maybe it's possible. Woodpeckers can peck at up to 20 taps per second! 
But...Competitive shooters using a finely tuned semi-auto rifle are only getting off about 3 shots per second. Can a competitive photographer do better with a shutter button?


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