# I just wanted to clarify things about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 from yesterday’s report



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 31, 2020)

> There have been a lot of visceral posts from a couple of web sites that have either taken things out of context or clearly just want to appear relevant.
> Yesterday I wrote about a lot of reports of long delays in the second allocation of the Canon EOS R5.
> I also wrote:
> New firmware is definitely coming, but will there be a hardware solution/recall too? It’s starting to feel that way. But let’s wait and see what Canon has to say about the issue and get further confirmation about the second allocation being delayed until November.
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 31, 2020)

Don't forget the 5D MK II recall that put a piece of black tape in to stop a light leak.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 31, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Don't forget the 5D MK II recall that put a piece of black tape in to stop a light leak.


Wish they could put a piece of black tape to suck the heat out.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jul 31, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> Wish they could put a piece of black tape to suck the heat out.


They can, just don't expect your IBIS to still work afterward.  









3M™ 8805 Heat Transfer Thermal Tape


3M™ Thermal Transfer Heat Tape 8805 conducts heat with a long-lasting bond. 5 mil thickness, available in 1 inch, 2 inch, 7 inch widths. Custom Converting Available




www.itapestore.com


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

I think the Camera is Performing as Canon stated but they should have clarified that the record times are from a cold unit. I took my R5 out last night and shot 249 images full Raw, and was able to switch to 8K IPB and had 15mins showing, which I think was the SD cards limit cfexpress card should be here today.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I think the Camera is Performing as Canon stated but they should have clarified that the record times are from a cold unit. I took my R5 out last night and shot 249 images full Raw, and was able to switch to 8K IPB and had 15mins showing, which I think was the SD cards limit cfexpress card should be here today.



The cooldown times for internal recording aren't accurate, even in a climate-controlled environment. I generally only listen to the positive guys that do real work, and even they have shown that it isn't working as claimed. I don't want to open that can of worms again, but it's pretty unusable if you do the recommended cooldown time and end up with 4 minutes of recording before you have to cool it down again.

They'll do something, the perception around the camera for video is quite negative.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The cooldown times for internal recording aren't accurate, even in a climate-controlled environment. I generally only listen to the positive guys that do real work, and even they have shown that it isn't working as claimed. I don't want to open that can of worms again, but it's pretty unusable if you do the recommended cooldown time and end up with 4 minutes of recording before you have to cool it down again.
> 
> They'll do something, the perception around the camera for video is quite negative.


Yeah the cool down is bad, I think Canon being Canon insulated the camera so well that it defends itself better in direct sunlight but like a thermos once the heat is in it that heats stays in the camera for a long time.

I will say the 3 hour Youtube stream Gerald Undone did where the R6 overheated when sending the signal externally at 60P pretty quick into the chat but just would not die running 30P should be a sign the the high bit rate writing internally is a least part of the issue. So a firmware update could be a simple and fast fix.


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## Max TT (Jul 31, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Thank you


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## marathonman (Jul 31, 2020)

I found out today that the R5 can take pictures. I was shook.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> Wish they could put a piece of black tape to suck the heat out.


_Black hole_ tape should work

As for the article: sounds reasonable. I also wouldn't expect anyone at Canon to confirm a recall other than through an official press release, regardless of whether that branch was in the know or not.


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## bbasiaga (Jul 31, 2020)

Just saw the Sony Northrup (borrowing this amusing moniker from someone who posted it elsewhere on these forums) that was very positive on the R5 stills capability. Makes we wish I could convince the wife we need one. 

The video overheating is an issue, and not being a video guy I'm having a hard time finding sympathy or empathy for those crushed by it. I just don't understand. No one watches youtube at 8k, at least that I know, or often even 4k. I just have the impression people's expectations got too hyped up - like they went from not being able to record 8k at all to defining this instrument as garbage because it can only do 15-30min at a time. Similar for some of the 4k modes. But again, I freely admit I don't work in that space so I don't know what I may be missing here. 

It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, Canon decides to do in terms of a fix if they really can't perform to spec. 

-Brian


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## VegasCameraGuy (Jul 31, 2020)

For my 2 cents, it would be hard to recall and fix the R5 body to radiate more heat away. The R5 is sealed and beyond bolting it to a block of ice or running EF lenses with a cooling adapter seems to be the only way to cool the unit besides going back to the drawing board. It's hard to have a sealed unit that will radiate heat. I would assume they will do something like Sony and turn the shutdown temperature up to let the body get hotter before it clicks off. Of course, you could always just take pictures with it as I think that's the original intent.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> [...] I just don't understand. No one watches youtube at 8k, at least that I know, or often even 4k. I just have the impression people's expectations got too hyped up - like they went from not being able to record 8k at all to defining this instrument as garbage because it can only do 15-30min at a time. Similar for some of the 4k modes.



Without going into too much detail, the issue is that heat builds up and never goes away. So I could be out taking pictures for an hour or so, causing the camera to accumulate heat. That heat never seems to go away due to the insulation of internal components.

So what that means if I ever want to use the 4K120fps or 8K modes _at all_, I have to do so at the start of my day. But being an event shooter I can't control when I need slow motion recordings, and I can't just leave the R5 off and in the bag the whole day just to be able to use one of it's basic functions.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 31, 2020)

8k five years ago.


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## Max TT (Jul 31, 2020)

This is why they must do something, no matter how many people defend Canon and say they don't care about video etc Their market valuation is what the people at Canon will be going to bed and waking up thinking about. And its a nightmare.

Their Stock has been slammed since launch, and trading at 21 year low on very high volumes. Not since 1999 have we seen these valuations. Which means that analyst with alot more information than us, that have both industry and company specific data see this launch as a failure, that will negatively impact financials.

With valuations like this, they will do something, and the market is already pricing some of that in. These are the kind of things that lead to layoffs, I don't want to see people lose their jobs, I hope they solve it.


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## Jim Corbett (Jul 31, 2020)

I think people have overheated the problem way more than the actual cameras do. Canon is going to fix it, period. But, I'm not sure who's going to fix people's awful habit to focus on the negative! Instead of cheering for Canon for making serious attempts to break the conservatism barrier and come up with something that really pushes up the bar, most of the people went bonkers overnight because of the OH. And, if one doesn't see the bigger problem, they're most likely a part of it.
So, start prepping, for the end is nigh...


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## 3.V Audio & Video (Jul 31, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The cooldown times for internal recording aren't accurate, even in a climate-controlled environment. I generally only listen to the positive guys that do real work, and even they have shown that it isn't working as claimed. I don't want to open that can of worms again, but it's pretty unusable if you do the recommended cooldown time and end up with 4 minutes of recording before you have to cool it down again.
> 
> They'll do something, the perception around the camera for video is quite negative.



Canon themselves recommended using an external fan to cool it down - why? I ask why because it seems fans and even placing it in a fridge does not help much at all since the thermal insulation that prevents heat from entering the camera body will also prevent this type of cooling to become effective. This I conclude from watching a few videos. But I really hope I am wrong. 

I am taking a wild guess here, but I think since Canon has a cooling patent (?) design (CR presented it recently), I think the R5/R6 is "already designed" to easily accept the patent's implementation (hardware side). I think that Canon may have prepared themselves for this perceived overheating issue (made by the public and reviewers) before releasing the cameras. Thinking if it (the outcry) does get out of control, it will be easy to update/recall by a rather simple (relative to a redesign) "plug and play" and that would calm people down. Maybe they didn't do it from the start because it would cost them extra money, or parts were not available (Covid). Maybe they released far fewer units than expected this 1st batch to see what actual buyers had to say about it? Then again, why take a chance with their reputation if they new this could be a PR problem from the start?

I'm just speculating.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jul 31, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> 8k five years ago.


What is the deal with that crazy stack of four external monitors at the back of the camera??


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## Cee Log (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I think the Camera is Performing as Canon stated but they should have clarified that the record times are from a cold unit. I took my R5 out last night and shot 249 images full Raw, and was able to switch to 8K IPB and had 15mins showing, which I think was the SD cards limit cfexpress card should be here today.



NoFilmSchool has done the most thorough R5 overheating test so far:

https://nofilmschool.com/testing-canon-r5-overheating

However one of the biggest deal breakers for us videographers was a tweet by Gerald Undone that after one hour of shooting stills the camera gave ZERO seconds of 4K HQ / 8K / 4K60p. 

Other reports have said that just having the camera in standby overheats it.

Would be great if you could test this yourself and report back to us as those tests were all done on pre-production cameras.


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## Darrell Cadieux (Jul 31, 2020)

I have read several rather nasty reports that the R5 is overheating while shooting stills. I want one primarily for wedding photography where I am going to shoot 2000+ frames in a day...many in rapid succession. Has anyone else heard of these problems?


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## cornieleous (Jul 31, 2020)

Max C said:


> This is why they must do something, no matter how many people defend Canon and say they don't care about video etc Their market valuation is what the people at Canon will be going to bed and waking up thinking about. And its a nightmare.
> 
> Their Stock has been slammed since launch, and trading at 21 year low on very high volumes. Not since 1999 have we seen these valuations. Which means that analyst with alot more information than us, that have both industry and company specific data see this launch as a failure, that will negatively impact financials.
> 
> ...




Every thread just bashing. We must do something? I'll be out shooting with my new R5 this weekend. You'll be here thinking you are saving the world trying to get the R5 changed into your perfect video camera instead of just buying a video camera.


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## cornieleous (Jul 31, 2020)

Darrell Cadieux said:


> I have read several rather nasty reports that the R5 is overheating while shooting stills. I want one primarily for wedding photography where I am going to shoot 2000+ frames in a day...many in rapid succession. Has anyone else heard of these problems?



Several? List each one. Were they 100% from youtube reviewers? I have one in hand will do my own tests rather than listening to garbage.


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## twoheadedboy (Jul 31, 2020)

I was really surprised by 3 things with my R5:

1. How warm the underside gets in normal operation. If my R or 5D MK IV did this, I never noticed it. I have a Sound Devices MixPre-II for field recording which mounts onto a tripod thread underneath your camera and I'm a little concerned about this, even though that thing is a beast.
2. How much mechanical movement/recalibration is happening CONSTANTLY. It's more like holding a photo-taking robot than a camera.
3. How absolutely dead-on incredible the total package for autofocus on stills is, even compared to my high expectations. I'm still having some issues trying to determine what combination of settings allows me to use high speed continuous, but in terms of single shot tests with my RF 50mm f/1.2, the focus is insane wide-open and the positive impact of IBIS on slow shutter shots was superb. I haven't pixel-peeped yet but what I was seeing on the screen was transcendentally amazing in totality, at how nailed exposure and white balance were, too. I'm pretty sure once I get a better handle of the various settings, I'm never going to have to think about non-creative settings ever again...i.e. do I use f/1.2 for defocused backgrounds or stop down to f/2.8 for more detail in the corners...not "what's my best combo of all settings in this low light to "get the shot".

I don't really like the way you have to flip it to and from video mode, but I will rarely use video and rarely change the settings (I pretty much expect to use 4k 30p non-HQ all the time) so it's not really a big deal.


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## Act444 (Jul 31, 2020)

IMO this is a bit overblown. BUT...

I think the issue is that in pre-announcing the camera, Canon marketed the 8K as a main feature, rather than the niche feature it really is. The camera is fine, but it was made out to be something it really was not. I think they may have been feeling the pressure from the market and caved. Unfortunately (or fortunately, if you feel that way), it’s coming back to haunt them.

Think the design is fine, but Marketing failed them big time here. I can’t help but wonder if heads will roll...


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## twoheadedboy (Jul 31, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Several? List each one. Were they 100% from youtube reviewers? I have on in hand will do my own tests rather than listening to garbage.



I have only lightly shot it in my air-conditioned house thus far, but it was getting pretty warm just shooting. I am a little concerned about having to shoot a lot of frames in 85 degree sunlight TBH but I'll wait to see the reports.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 31, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> What is the deal with that crazy stack of four external monitors at the back of the camera??


They were each 4k recorders, it needed four cutting edge 4k recorders to save 8k footage.


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## twoheadedboy (Jul 31, 2020)

Act444 said:


> I think the issue is that in pre-announcing the camera, Canon marketed the 8K as a main feature, rather than the niche feature it really is. The camera is fine, but it was made out to be something it really was not. I think they may have been feeling the pressure from the market and caved. Unfortunately (or fortunately, if you feel that way), it’s coming back to haunt them.
> 
> Think the design is fine, but Marketing failed them big time here. I can’t help but wonder if heads will roll...



What if they had marketed 8K video as the ability to record snippets from which you can pull the HQ frame you want out of it, even better than holding the shutter down at 20 fps? And then people organically discovered they could get actual raw video out of that functionality? People would have flipped out.


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## [email protected] (Jul 31, 2020)

I think Canon Rumors and PetaPixel need to collect themselves. Online journalism is still journalism, and there are norms that are being violated. 

Specifically, there are no "reports" that there is going to be a recall. There is no source - other than personal speculation - that Canon has any intent whatsoever to provide a fix for any perceived problems. Because Canon Rumors is a rumors site, it often uses first person voice to describe what it's been told. In this instance, it did not vary its voice, nor its attribution pattern, when speculating about some fairly radical action it thinks Canon might take. Of course this becomes a "report" in another (lax) editorial site. 

Petapixel is considered a trusted news feeder to Google News and other aggregators. There are now real, tertiary stories being done about the Petapixel report on a report by Canon Rumors Guy about a report by some vlogger. In each of these cases, there is a breakdown in source disclosure policy. I wouldn't be able to get any of this BS past any of my editors from back when I was slinging copy. 

The proper news here is that Canon A) released a camera that is has short duration video capabilities in certain formats, and B) may not reach stated capabilities regarding cooling and time (though Canon did use weasel phrasing), and C) isn't it fun to watch video people have hissies before they go buy the A7S3, which will make them much happier. Pick one of those angles, but if you're going to make a new one with a "I wonder if..", then call it that.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

Cee Log said:


> Would be great if you could test this yourself and report back to us as those tests were all done on pre-production cameras.


Great summary. Just one thing, I think Gerald has production models of both the R5 and R6, at least that's what he did his streaming test with yesterday: 



 (says production models in the description).



cornieleous said:


> Several? List each one. Were they 100% from youtube reviewers? I have on in hand will do my own tests rather than listening to garbage.


Are you kidding me? There's enough reports on it right now. What if it is from "Youtubers", does that make the findings invalid?
The camera overheats in standby or sometimes when taking pictures. It's currently unredictable, but once the heat is "in" it can take hours to be able to use 4K120 even for a minute.



> You'll be here thinking you are saving the world trying to get the R5 changed into your perfect video camera instead of just buying a video camera.


 How is this helping? Noone is "saving the world" here. But it would be nice to be able to use the advertised functions reliably even in the middle of a shooting day, not only when the camera is fresh.


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## unfocused (Jul 31, 2020)

Darrell Cadieux said:


> I have read several rather nasty reports that the R5 is overheating while shooting stills. I want one primarily for wedding photography where I am going to shoot 2000+ frames in a day...many in rapid succession. Has anyone else heard of these problems?





cornieleous said:


> Several? List each one. Were they 100% from youtube reviewers? I have on in hand will do my own tests rather than listening to garbage.



Cut the guy a little slack. He's just asking before buying. Can't blame him for doing a little due diligence before plucking down $4,000, especially if he has to pay for it with weddings that are not exactly big business right now.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> What if they had marketed 8K video as the ability to record snippets from which you can pull the HQ frame you want out of it, even better than holding the shutter down at 20 fps? And then people organically discovered they could get actual raw video out of that functionality? People would have flipped out.


Yeah, but those people still would not be able to reliably record even a minute of 4k120 or 8k after half a shooting day.

I'm beginning to feel people are deliberately trying to miss the point why overheating is a problem. Everyone goes back to "how could you expect limitless 8k ololololol!", but really noone in their right mind expected that. However I did expect to be able to use the 4k120 mode intermittently throughout the day, which does not seem possible right now due to the heat retention.


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## gregster (Jul 31, 2020)

Max C said:


> This is why they must do something, no matter how many people defend Canon and say they don't care about video etc Their market valuation is what the people at Canon will be going to bed and waking up thinking about. And its a nightmare.
> 
> Their Stock has been slammed since launch, and trading at 21 year low on very high volumes. Not since 1999 have we seen these valuations. Which means that analyst with alot more information than us, that have both industry and company specific data see this launch as a failure, that will negatively impact financials.
> 
> With valuations like this, they will do something, and the market is already pricing some of that in. These are the kind of things that lead to layoffs, I don't want to see people lose their jobs, I hope they solve it.



I believe this is more likely due to their quarterly results release which showed the first quarterly loss in history for them. New product launch issues could also contribute.



https://finance.yahoo.com/news/canon-plunges-most-eight-years-005235986.html


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## bsbeamer (Jul 31, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> What is the deal with that crazy stack of four external monitors at the back of the camera??





privatebydesign said:


> They were each 4k recorders, it needed four cutting edge 4k recorders to save 8k footage.



Plus a stitching process in post. Even last year they had an external recorder array with tether attached to the behemoth to record 8K RAW. 









Canon and Miyazaki Prefecture collaborate on ultra-high-resolution 8K video "Origins of Japan's Mythology" | Canon Global


Canon, in cooperation with Miyazaki Prefecture, has produced a new, ultra-high-resolution 8K video highlighting some of the prefecture's most iconic sightseeing locations and cultural elements.




global.canon


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> The camera overheats in standby or sometimes when taking pictures. It's currently unredictable, but once the heat is "in" it can take hours to be able to use 4K120 even for a minute.



My Camera is sitting at my desk while I work from home. The power is on and has been for an hour and I can still take photos, I can still record video.

This BS that the camera is overheating just sitting there needs to stop cause it is simply not true. 

NO way NO how Canon would release the Camera without weeks of Soak testing the Camera.


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## Staz (Jul 31, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> Just saw the Sony Northrup (borrowing this amusing moniker from someone who posted it elsewhere on these forums) that was very positive on the R5 stills capability. Makes we wish I could convince the wife we need one.
> 
> The video overheating is an issue, and not being a video guy I'm having a hard time finding sympathy or empathy for those crushed by it. I just don't understand. No one watches youtube at 8k, at least that I know, or often even 4k. I just have the impression people's expectations got too hyped up - like they went from not being able to record 8k at all to defining this instrument as garbage because it can only do 15-30min at a time. Similar for some of the 4k modes. But again, I freely admit I don't work in that space so I don't know what I may be missing here.
> 
> ...


'Sony Northrup' ....love it!!


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## bbasiaga (Jul 31, 2020)

gregster said:


> I believe this is more likely due to their quarterly results release which showed the first quarterly loss in history for them. New product launch issues could also contribute.
> 
> 
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/canon-plunges-most-eight-years-005235986.html


Canon is a huge conglomerate, of which only a small portion is the camera business. If the R5 launch hype/response actually has anything to do with this stock price drop, it would be an equally small percentage of the reason. 

-Brian


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> Canon is a huge conglomerate, of which only a small portion is the camera business. If the R5 launch hype/response actually has anything to do with this stock price drop, it would be an equally small percentage of the reason.
> 
> -Brian


There biggest hurt is Axis is losing market share, Avigilon/MSI are taking it from them.


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## Max TT (Jul 31, 2020)

gregster said:


> I believe this is more likely due to their quarterly results release which showed the first quarterly loss in history for them. New product launch issues could also contribute.
> 
> 
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/canon-plunges-most-eight-years-005235986.html


That's unfortunate timing, they really needed this launch to go flawlessly. It only exacerbated the bearish price movement. These things impact companies at all levels, I really do hope they find a solution.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> My Camera is sitting at my desk while I work from home. The power is on and has been for an hour and I can still take photos, I can still record video.
> 
> This BS that the camera is overheating just sitting there needs to stop cause it is simply not true.



How is it nonsense when a lot of testers have found it to be true?
https://nofilmschool.com/testing-canon-r5-overheating
That guy did some serious tests...


> Simply turning the camera on and using it will reduce the "maximum recording time" for each mode limited by heat.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287197307398692864Gerald Undone is one of the most neutral and thorough testers I've seen


> More bad news about the R5. Every minute that you spend taking photos with it reduces the time you can shoot HQ video. Today I shot photos for 1 hour in 30C summer weather, and by the end of it, I switched to video and the overheat warning was on and 0 mins remaining due to heat.







Not quoting the video, but they found that the camera starts building up heat as soon as it's on.

But yeah, instead you're expecting people to take _your_ word for gospel, with your camera sitting on your desk and probably in standby. 
How many photos have you taken? How is the recording time in HQ modes? Is it ticking down at all? How long does the reovery take?
Simply stating "it's fine for me" is just burying the problem other people have experienced.

Again:
are a lot of people making too big of a deal out of this for clicks: yes, yes they are
does that mean their findings are wrong: not necessarily


Edit, since you added something while I wrote my reply:


> NO way NO how Canon would release the Camera without weeks of Soak testing the Camera.


They might just have thought "it's fine" and not expected the rigorous testing and backlash. Or they just couldn't make it any better, in which case no recall could ever help. If it's just a design problem in terms of "our processor is too inefficient" or similar, then the R5 is what it is.


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## KeithBreazeal (Jul 31, 2020)

marathonman said:


> I found out today that the R5 can take pictures. I was shook.



I'm getting the R5 for IBIS, resolution, and the audio annotation feature. I could care less about video. I'll keep my 5D Mark IV but sell my 5DS. I produced videos for 25 years and when I needed a photo, I took out my SLR/DSLR. There is no substitute for a "real" video camera.


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## davidhfe (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> My Camera is sitting at my desk while I work from home. The power is on and has been for an hour and I can still take photos, I can still record video.
> 
> This BS that the camera is overheating just sitting there needs to stop cause it is simply not true.
> 
> NO way NO how Canon would release the Camera without weeks of Soak testing the Camera.



Can you grab a few minutes of 8K, 4K-HQ, or 4K 120 though? When I do sports shooting for friends they'll often do beer showers or stuff at the end, and I'd really want to be able to drop into 4K-120 for even a minute or two. This would be directly after hours (2-3k shots) of high speed shooting.

For me, personally, 1080/120 or 4K/60 would be fine but not exactly what canon told us in the dev announcement.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> For me, personally, 1080/120 or 4K/60 would be fine but not exactly what canon told us in the dev announcement.


Sadly, even 4k60 is one of the heat limited modes. You'd need to go back to 4k30 or 4k30 cropped.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> How is it nonsense when a lot of testers have found it to be true?
> https://nofilmschool.com/testing-canon-r5-overheating
> That guy did some serious tests...
> 
> ...



Let me try and explain this again:

Are there features in the Camera that maybe thermal limited? *YES*
Does using any of these features render the Camera useless? *NO* (Ok you can not shot 8K or 4KHQ)

Gerald Undone's almost 3 hour stream showed this fact really really clearly.


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## twoheadedboy (Jul 31, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> Yeah, but those people still would not be able to reliably record even a minute of 4k120 or 8k after half a shooting day.
> 
> I'm beginning to feel people are deliberately trying to miss the point why overheating is a problem. Everyone goes back to "how could you expect limitless 8k ololololol!", but really noone in their right mind expected that. However I did expect to be able to use the 4k120 mode intermittently throughout the day, which does not seem possible right now due to the heat retention.



I don't think that's true. I can't confirm either way, but none of the information I've seen suggests it's THAT bad.

I understand why people find overheating to be an issue. I wasn't denying that in my suggested alternative marketing strategy. I just look at it like the CPU overclocking processor community - people take a great joy in getting 15% additional speed out of a processor than it was spec'ed at. People would not take a great joy if companies released standalone processors at the "overclocked" frequency and indicated one could not avoid crashing unless they also bought and implemented water cooling. Underpromising and overdelivering is a key part of marketing strategy as it relates to product performance and customer satisfaction.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Let me try and explain this again:
> 
> Are there features in the Camera that maybe thermal limited? *YES*
> Does using any of these features render the Camera useless? *NO* (Ok you can not shot 8K or 4KHQ)
> ...


First of all: He was recording externally, that changes a lot.
And again, because you really, really seem to want to miss the point:
If I go out with the camera and start shooting _anything_, even non-limited modes, then they start to build up heat, which can make it impossible to use _any_ mode above 4K30 _at all_.

How is that not being the case expecting too much. That means I can only ever use 4K120 at the start of a shooting day.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Can you grab a few minutes of 8K, 4K-HQ, or 4K 120 though? When I do sports shooting for friends they'll often do beer showers or stuff at the end, and I'd really want to be able to drop into 4K-120 for even a minute or two. This would be directly after hours (2-3k shots) of high speed shooting.
> 
> For me, personally, 1080/120 or 4K/60 would be fine but not exactly what canon told us in the dev announcement.


Right now I have 10m and 51sec of 8K video available. When I turned it on I had 10m and 51sec available. 

My point is not to say the camera does not have limitation, my point is can we stick to the facts and not so and so youtube said x. Yes I am just some guy on a forum that does have some skin in the game(I own the Camera) but I can only say what I am seeing.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> I don't think that's true. I can't confirm either way, but none of the information I've seen suggests it's THAT bad.


Actually, GDs test did:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287197307398692864
Also basically everyone testing the camera agreed that when the camera has heat built up, it will take hours to cool down. So it's not hard to find scenarios where that will prevent you from shooting any of the modes above 4K30.


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## YuengLinger (Jul 31, 2020)

This is a pretty unbelievable year in so many ways.


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## unfocused (Jul 31, 2020)

I really think everyone needs to just take a time out. The constant back and forth flaming of one another is not going to resolve anything. There is sufficient evidence for a logical conclusion that the camera has some problems recording video at high resolution.

Let's stop denying that and attacking the messengers. That's as logical as saying we should stop testing for Coronavirus because if we test for it, it will show people have it. 

On the other hand, it's ridiculous and you lose all credibility when you claim the camera is completely unusable or a disaster. 

Those who pre-ordered and have their babies can make their own judgement. Confirmation bias will drive their decisions anyway. Those who have one on order can decide for themselves whether they want to keep their order or cancel.

For most of us who might consider the camera at some point in the future, it's going to be several months before it is readily available and even longer before it drops to a reasonable price, so we have plenty of time to let things sort themselves out.


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## davidhfe (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Right now I have 10m and 51sec of 8K video available. When I turned it on I had 10m and 51sec available.
> 
> My point is not to say the camera does not have limitation, my point is can we stick to the facts and not so and so youtube said x. Yes I am just some guy on a forum that does have some skin in the game(I own the Camera) but I can only say what I am seeing.



Barring any huge gotchas now that the cameras are in the field, I'll be hitting the order button the moment my preorder hits. I am 90% stills, and my video work is quite predictable. I have been pleased as punch at my 5D4's performance as a video camera and expect the R5 to meet my needs.

Honestly—just trying to get my own expectations in line at this point and this point this forum is basically my best place to do so since folks here actually have the camera and for the most part are pretty agenda-free.

(vs our friends the northrups who decided that BANDING in all caps was the appropriate title card for a video that praises the IQ of the camera)


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> First of all: He was recording externally, that changes a lot.
> And again, because you really, really seem to want to miss the point:
> If I go out with the camera and start shooting _anything_, even non-limited modes, then they start to build up heat, which can make it impossible to use _any_ mode above 4K30 _at all_.
> 
> How is that not being the case expecting too much. That means I can only ever use 4K120 at the start of a shooting day.


I shot 249 pictures last night, I was testing multiple exposure mode and still had 15mins of 8k after I was done. I only shot 45 secs of 8K IPB cause I do not have my cfexpress card and just wanted to mess with editing it. 

I am not missing your point I just think you are being extreme.


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## Skux (Jul 31, 2020)

Imagine being an early adopter and getting the worst version of the hardware before Canon improves it for future allocations.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 31, 2020)

If we are being realistic about the video issues, the problem lies in the unpredictability of the higher end modes. They work... but with too many different caveats. From a cold start, we can expect 8K30p, 4K60, Oversampled 4K30 & 4K120 to work anywhere from 15-30 minutes. In real world use though, it is very rare that we will be using the high end modes right off the bat.

You would expect to turn on the camera, shoot some photos, shoot some normal videos, and then you may decide to use one of the better quality modes. The issue is by spending some time in these non-critical modes, you eat up available resources so when it's time to use 8K or 4K120, at that point the camera may already be indicating that the available run time is shorter, and even worse, it may already indicate that the camera is too hot to operate in these modes. Imagine shooting a wedding reception and filming at a reasonable 4K24p... then an important part, like cake cutting, or a speech or something starts, I would want to switch to a higher quality mode to film this brief event... but, you might not be able to do that. That is painfully unreliable for client work. There's no waiting around to cool down, or re-takes in a scenario like this. There are only two ways to deal with this. Either 1) Be relegated to the fact that you will be topping out at 4K24p normal mode or 2) You will need additional gear. Either a second body that stays cold until its time for these high end shots or an external recorder, which would top out at 4K60. (Oversampled 4K would actually still overheat.)

As it is, the Camera will be fine if you can accept 4K30/24 in non oversampled mode. This is a step up for most Canon users anyway, since we are used to filming in FHD or 4K with a crop on an EOS R, 5DMkIV etc... Also, an external recorder like the Atomos Ninja V is a viable option as it allows up to 4K60p pretty much without limitation. (Again HQ 4K will overheat). But if you have any plans to use 8K, 4K120 or 4K Oversampled... it will require forethought and planning, because you may not be able to use these modes at any given time.

What can be done? I really doubt that there is a physical fix that is economically feasible for Canon. That leaves a firmware fix. In order to make this a success, we need reliable access to the higher end modes even after moderate use. I want to be able to shoot lower end modes and stills and know that once I switch it to 8K or 4K120 I can have 15 minutes of usage time no matter what. This might mean taking the limiter off it when I say I need it and accepting any consequences that may come with it. It's the same as running a car at redline. I won't always do it, but when I want or need to use it, let me do it. Hopefully it isn't that extreme and here's hoping that Canon was super conservative in the implementation of the automatic shut downs in overheated modes, and there is some room for dialing it back.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jul 31, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> They were each 4k recorders, it needed four cutting edge 4k recorders to save 8k footage.


That is absurd.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

Skux said:


> Imagine being an early adopter and getting the worst version of the hardware before Canon improves it for future allocations.


Yeah and if that happens they will replace the current batch like they have done in the past.


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## LSXPhotog (Jul 31, 2020)

Darrell Cadieux said:


> I have read several rather nasty reports that the R5 is overheating while shooting stills. I want one primarily for wedding photography where I am going to shoot 2000+ frames in a day...many in rapid succession. Has anyone else heard of these problems?


Several? Can you source? I know of one, and the guy was using an old LP-E6 battery with some interesting shooting conditions. There could be a battery compatibility issue with the camera with old batteries.


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## Shane1.4 (Jul 31, 2020)

Just want to hop on to say my R5 arrived yesterday! As a wedding photographer who has been using the 5D Mark IV and EOS R, it felt like forever for this camera to come out. I had very high expectations. All I can say, is it has exceeded my expectations in every way! My mind is blown. Not one issue. This camera is unreal! Completely different league from the Mark IV and R. Hats off to Canon. You delivered beyond what I was hoping for as a still photographers! Videos to come soon on my YouTube channel.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I shot 249 pictures last night, I was testing multiple exposure mode and still had 15mins of 8k after I was done. I only shot 45 secs of 8K IPB cause I do not have my cfexpress card and just wanted to mess with editing it.
> 
> I am not missing your point I just think you are being extreme.


Look, I am not denying that it works for you, but why are you denying that it didn't work for the three sources I posted? They're far from the only ones, and while GD's results may have been the most severe (we don't know what the standby timer was at, nor how much heat the camera soaked, if it was allowed to go to standby at all etc), that doesn't mean they're invalid because that wasn't your specific experience.

Taking a photos at night is not the same as walking around in 30C weather and maybe hitting a bad combination of usage. Same with 4K30 building up heat over time (that one is confirmed as well) @BakaBokeh said it perfectly., the problem is reliability.

I am not saying the camera is unusable, I'll be looking forward to it, actually. What I'm saying is from all the reports it will be hard to use it reliably, and no amount of asterisks in Canon's announcements makes that ok in my book.


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## LSXPhotog (Jul 31, 2020)

What if it's discovered that using a battery grip and external recorder fix many of the video issues? I haven't seen anyone testing video with a battery grip and, by most accounts, the battery is getting extremely hot in addition to the CFExpress card. As Tony Northrup has already demonstrated by his inability to know which model CFExpress card he had from ProGrade or the difference between magabits per second and megabyte per second....a lot of these testers may not be giving the camera a fair shake for its best performance.

I want to see this camera succeed and obviously Canon does as well...it will be fixed. We may actually be thanking these YouTubers when it's all said and done because the camera will be better.


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## JoseB (Jul 31, 2020)

Meanwhile, the things are rolling: EOS R5




__ https://www.facebook.com/paraschandariaphotography/photos/a.1514988888733249/2777397812492344


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## WriteLight (Jul 31, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> I think Canon Rumors and PetaPixel need to collect themselves. Online journalism is still journalism, and there are norms that are being violated.
> 
> Specifically, there are no "reports" that there is going to be a recall. There is no source - other than personal speculation - that Canon has any intent whatsoever to provide a fix for any perceived problems. Because Canon Rumors is a rumors site, it often uses first person voice to describe what it's been told. In this instance, it did not vary its voice, nor its attribution pattern, when speculating about some fairly radical action it thinks Canon might take. Of course this becomes a "report" in another (lax) editorial site.
> 
> ...


"If your mother says she loves you, check the source."


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

LSXPhotog said:


> What if it's discovered that using a battery grip and external recorder fix many of the video issues? I haven't seen anyone testing video with a battery grip and, by most accounts, the battery is getting extremely hot in addition to the CFExpress card.


Gerald Undone mentioned it in his 3 hours livestream, but there's no way I can find the exact time. Hea said using a battery grib did not make a difference for him.
Esternal recorder however helps a lot, basically 4K60 unlimited going to a Ninja V. But you won't be able to use 4k120, 4k HQ or 8k for even a minute once you've built up the internal heat this way.



> I want to see this camera succeed and obviously Canon does as well...it will be fixed. We may actually be thanking these YouTubers when it's all said and done because the camera will be better.


Yeah, that's what I don't get here. How can you _not_ be okay with people pointing out flaws and Canon being pushed to fixing them. Even if it's not your use case, how does this hurt you?


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> If we are being realistic about the video issues, the problem lies in the unpredictability of the higher end modes. They work... but with too many different caveats. From a cold start, we can expect 8K30p, 4K60, Oversampled 4K30 & 4K120 to work anywhere from 15-30 minutes. In real world use though, it is very rare that we will be using the high end modes right off the bat.



I will say it is unpredictable until you switch to the mode you want, at that point you are shown on screen you have xx:xx time in this mode. If it is zero then that is a non starter. If it says 5mins and you have not idea how long the shot is going to take that is also a non starter.



BakaBokeh said:


> You would expect to turn on the camera, shoot some photos, shoot some normal videos, and then you may decide to use one of the better quality modes. The issue is by spending some time in these non-critical modes, you eat up available resources so when it's time to use 8K or 4K120, at that point the camera may already be indicating that the available run time is shorter, and even worse, it may already indicate that the camera is too hot to operate in these modes. Imagine shooting a wedding reception and filming at a reasonable 4K24p... then an important part, like cake cutting, or a speech or something starts, I would want to switch to a higher quality mode to film this brief event... but, you might not be able to do that. That is painfully unreliable for client work. There's no waiting around to cool down, or re-takes in a scenario like this. There are only two ways to deal with this. Either 1) Be relegated to the fact that you will be topping out at 4K24p normal mode or 2) You will need additional gear. Either a second body that stays cold until its time for these high end shots or an external recorder, which would top out at 4K60. (Oversampled 4K would actually still overheat.)



Let me start by saying I am not discounting this use case, but I will say how are people solving this issue today? If they are using Cameras without the higher quality modes like the EOS R they are simply recording the event in the mode that works. I would argue the R5 has modes that just work. If Canon unlocks 1080 120 or 240 that is not thermal limited they are giving that same EOS R wedding shooter another tool. I wish 4k 120 was not thermal restricted cause this will be where I make money, but since I have been making money with the R's CRAP 720 this is going to be a joy



BakaBokeh said:


> As it is, the Camera will be fine if you can accept 4K30/24 in non oversampled mode. This is a step up for most Canon users anyway, since we are used to filming in FHD or 4K with a crop on an EOS R, 5DMkIV etc... Also, an external recorder like the Atomos Ninja V is a viable option as it allows up to 4K60p pretty much without limitation. (Again HQ 4K will overheat). But if you have any plans to use 8K, 4K120 or 4K Oversampled... it will require forethought and planning, because you may not be able to use these modes at any given time.



Agreed



BakaBokeh said:


> What can be done? I really doubt that there is a physical fix that is economically feasible for Canon. That leaves a firmware fix. In order to make this a success, we need reliable access to the higher end modes even after moderate use. I want to be able to shoot lower end modes and stills and know that once I switch it to 8K or 4K120 I can have 15 minutes of usage time no matter what. This might mean taking the limiter off it when I say I need it and accepting any consequences that may come with it. It's the same as running a car at redline. I won't always do it, but when I want or need to use it, let me do it. Hopefully it isn't that extreme and here's hoping that Canon was super conservative in the implementation of the automatic shut downs in overheated modes, and there is some room for dialing it back.


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## unfocused (Jul 31, 2020)

Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?

If not, why not? 

The 1Dx III should be *better* sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?


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## AlanF (Jul 31, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?
> 
> If not, why not?
> 
> The 1Dx III should be *better* sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?


Remove IBIS.


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## cornieleous (Jul 31, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> Are you kidding me? There's enough reports on it right now. What if it is from "Youtubers", does that make the findings invalid?
> The camera overheats in standby or sometimes when taking pictures. It's currently unredictable, but once the heat is "in" it can take hours to be able to use 4K120 even for a minute.
> 
> How is this helping? Noone is "saving the world" here. But it would be nice to be able to use the advertised functions reliably even in the middle of a shooting day, not only when the camera is fresh.




How is whining endlessly helping? Describe to me how all these baseless claims repeating what you saw online amount to helping. For many of us, we know what the R5 is and it doesn't need your help. Works well here so far. I'll let you all know if it doesn't in a constructive, non hyped way.

Heat is not unpredictable, it is actually simple. The hotter the ambient air, the less a source can cool. The more the camera is doing, the more heat it produces. Most balanced reviewers are not claiming the R5 cannot shoot stills or low frame rate video in any condition any other DSLR cannot. The high frame rate video is the issue, and some reviewers have shown the A7S3 ALSO overheating before the Canon in two different tests. So what is the real point? There is no perfect camera, particularly no perfect hybrid camera. Hybrid designs always compromise something.

So you are going only on reviewers and not your own experiences? I OWN the R5 and am putting it through its paces while you watch youtube reviewers who make their living on click bait. Yes, youtube being the source makes many reports unreliable. There are too many amateur and emotional reviews and not enough science, rigor and fairness. Most of the larger reviewer channels are either egotistical an opinionated, or paid shills with sponsors. I'd no more trust them for the whole story than I would the Canon ambassadors.

There are also contradictory reports to the ones you are cherry picking about the overheat problems. Yes the camera has a heat issue, well defined by Canon prior to purchase- no one is going to make you buy this, it is clearly NOT for you. Yet you all want the camera to be something else than was described to you by Canon- so go buy it! Go get your Sony. 

I am fine with the argument that Canon marketing screwed up by not being more cautious when advertising the video features, which confused people who don't know any better. This cannot be a dedicated video camera: Anyone who understands physics, some basic electronics, and how heat dissipates would realize a high MP sensor reading out at high bit rates is going to produce a lot of heat. Add weather sealing, IBIS which floats the sensor without a big heat sink, and it is super obvious there would be limits. Plus, Canon told you there would be. I get it that for uninformed people, Canon should have been even more clear on the limits rather than touting the 8K and high 4K modes so loudly.

I'm also fine with the argument that the heating issue can and should be improved if possible. 

I'm not fine with the way the vast majority are expressing their concerns with constant whining saying that Canon cheated people, or the product is fatally flawed when that has not been proven with any logical reasoning. Just garbage hype from a select few. Again, every reasonable person realizes this is a weather sealed stills camera with short duty video capability. Since day one, all the people who blindly follow social media and youtube were convinced that this was a video camera when it so clearly isn't. Canon marketing may have messed up, but they also could never have prepared for how dumb and entitled people have become.

I own cameras from other brands including a dedicated Sony camera for video, and I am no brand elitist. When I have a problem with a product I CONTACT THAT COMPANY instead of whining over and over and over in random internet forums. I don't waste my time getting frustrated over things I don't own, I just look for something else and move on. I have no issue with being critical of a product constructively, it is the way you are all going about it- repeating what others said as if you know they are facts and then bashing the company mercilessly.


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## nchoh (Jul 31, 2020)

Max C said:


> This is why they must do something, no matter how many people defend Canon and say they don't care about video etc Their market valuation is what the people at Canon will be going to bed and waking up thinking about. And its a nightmare.
> 
> Their Stock has been slammed since launch, and trading at 21 year low on very high volumes. Not since 1999 have we seen these valuations. Which means that analyst with alot more information than us, that have both industry and company specific data see this launch as a failure, that will negatively impact financials.
> 
> ...






Stock has been going down because demand of cameras has dropped. No really because of the R5 and R6 issues. However if Canon is able to prove that it can keep it's camera division profitable, then it's stock will at least stabilize.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 31, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?
> 
> If not, why not?
> 
> The 1Dx III should be *better* sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?



Comparable in some respect, yes, and no reported overheating that I'm aware of. However the 4K60 does not have dual pixel autofocus. It also does not do 8K, 4K120. It oversamples from 5 or 6K but not 8K like the R5. These are all the overheating offenders.

The bigger body might have something to do with it. Also, the lower resolution 20.1 MP probably has a lot to do with it.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I will say it is unpredictable until you switch to the mode you want, at that point you are shown on screen you have xx:xx time in this mode. If it is zero then that is a non starter. If it says 5mins and you have not idea how long the shot is going to take that is also a non starter.


Again this is almost deliberately missing the point. Basically what we have here is "Schroedingers 4K60". You don't know if you can still use 4K60/4K120 unless you try it when you actually need it.

So unless you check it at every occasion the behavior is unpredictable in my book. I find it unpredictable if I cannot gauge if I will be able to still use anything above 4K30 later that day. I will not be able to predict the exact shooting conditions (weather, length of video) and whether that will allow me to use any of the higher modes at all.

The problem is that heat dissipation takes incredibly long, so that once you hit the threshold you're pretty much done for the day with the higher video modes.

You semantics of "well, you can just check and then it's not upredictable anymore" is just absurd, sorry.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 31, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?
> 
> If not, why not?
> 
> The 1Dx III should be *better* sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?


There are lots of reasons why nobody has reported issues with the 1DX III, not least of which it doesn't shoot 8k, nor 4k 120, probably because there is no way Canon would push their 1 series that hard with untested (put to market) tech. But the 1 series also does not have IBIS which acts as a sensor isolator complicating heat mitigation and they do have room and experience inside the 1 series bodies to engineer some heat away.

Having been a 1 series user for years I am sometimes disappointed in how conservative Canon are with that model, when things like this happen I am very glad they are.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> [...] whining [...] baseless claims [...]
> For many of us, we know what the R5 is and it doesn't need your help. Works well here so far. I'll let you all know if it doesn't in a constructive, non hyped way.


We get it, you are the authority on what the R5 can do and when exactly it overheats or not, and everyone else is just lying to get clicks. Yeah, not gonna reply to the rest of this as we're going around in circles.


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## cornieleous (Jul 31, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?
> 
> If not, why not?
> 
> The 1Dx III should be *better* sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?



So many simple reasons.


The R5 body is a LOT smaller than the 1DX3, guessing you have not seen a side by side. It is smaller than a 5D4 and even a 6D
There is no evidence the R5 is not sealed nearly or as well as the 1DX3- it is fully weather sealed. Any differences are going to be completely insignificant thermally.
1DX3 doesn't do high bit rate video (4K120, 4KHQ and 8K)
1DX3 has a much smaller sensor resolution which is faster to read out so less heat generated per read cycle. 
IBIS requires floating the sensor on a suspension without a large heat sink mass, so cooling is harder.
Electronic viewfinder and screen running all the time on R5, more power.
etc.


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## cornieleous (Jul 31, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> We get it, you are the authority on what the R5 can do and when exactly it overheats or not, and everyone else is just lying to get clicks. Yeah, not gonna reply to the rest of this as we're going around in circles.



Could care less, don't expect you to put any effort into replying since you don't put any into getting an objective viewpoint either. 

I'm no authority, I'm just calling out irrational bashing and non constructive activities.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> Again this is almost deliberately missing the point. Basically what we have here is "Schroedingers 4K60". You don't know if you can still use 4K60/4K120 unless you try it when you actually need it.
> 
> So unless you check it at every occasion the behavior is unpredictable in my book. I find it unpredictable if I cannot gauge if I will be able to still use anything above 4K30 later that day. I will not be able to predict the exact shooting conditions (weather, length of video) and whether that will allow me to use any of the higher modes at all.
> 
> ...


But again if you NEED those modes 100% of time the R5 is not for you. Does that suck? Sure if you need modes never offered in a Canon camera before but again only you know if you NEED those modes.

If I needed an 8K 100% predictable Camera I would not choose the R5, if I needed a 100% reliable 4K60 Camera I would not choose the R5. If I needed a Camera with dual card slots I would not choose the Z6, or the EOS R.

The R5 is a BIG step up from the R and the MKIV and I think when you get a chance to try your Camera you will agree.


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## cornieleous (Jul 31, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Cut the guy a little slack. He's just asking before buying. Can't blame him for doing a little due diligence before plucking down $4,000, especially if he has to pay for it with weddings that are not exactly big business right now.


I would but he is not asking, he is assuming he knows when there are contradictory reviews all over.


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## Nelu (Jul 31, 2020)

Skux said:


> Imagine being an early adopter and getting the worst version of the hardware before Canon improves it for future allocations.


Yeah, I guess it's just terrible when someone is forcing your hand to click the "Pre-order" button and lets you without a choice...
I can't even imagine such an ordeal! I'm feeling for you so much...


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## mpmark (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Yeah the cool down is bad, I think Canon being Canon insulated the camera so well that it defends itself better in direct sunlight but like a thermos once the heat is in it that heats stays in the camera for a long time.
> 
> I will say the 3 hour Youtube stream Gerald Undone did where the R6 overheated when sending the signal externally at 60P pretty quick into the chat but just would not die running 30P should be a sign the the high bit rate writing internally is a least part of the issue. So a firmware update could be a simple and fast fix.



I don't think weather sealing has anything to do with heat dissipation in this case. Dissipation is challenging when creating a floating sensor for IBIS, as its not phsically against a heat dissipating surface. This camera has NO ISSUES as stills camera, and what "I" only care about, its when you try and satisfy 2 different worlds of usage into one you get issues.

Stills photographers want small and sealed. With video resolution become so high in resolution you're going to have to cool it, unfortunately you cant please photographers and cinematographers in this way. They should have had 2 separate bodies, the video body could have proper cooling system which would suffer on weather sealing and size. end of story.


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## WriteLight (Jul 31, 2020)

Just want to jump in here with my $.02....I've had the R5 since yesterday afternoon. First off, the image quality is absolutely stunning (using an RF 24-105 f/4) and the autofocus is so good it's tough to describe. I was able to hand-hold a 3 second shot and have it come out sharp, which speaks to how good the IBIS is. I'm going to test to see how it does in low light tonight and can't wait to see how that turns out.

For those wondering about CFexpress compatibility, I am using the Sony Tough 128 GB card (1700/1480) with absolutely no issues.

I can't jump in on the overheating issue, one because it won't be very relevant to me as a 95% stills shooter and so I haven't really tested it, but when I do switch to video it will to do 4k @120 for slow-motion. I haven't even figured out how to access 120fps in the menu yet as I haven't found it as an option. I will note that it is a bit of a pain to switch between photo and video modes, so that will take some getting used to.

I have found the EVF to be stunning. I have tested it with some 20fps bursts with no issues in lag or delay, and the quality/refresh is spectacular.

I'm coming from the 70D, so the joystick will take some getting used to although I really enjoy it. I do wish the control wheel by the set button had directional control as well like the 70D did, but with the joystick there it makes sense.

I was really anxious about the purchase, but so far I have no regrets. The overheating drama is white noise to me, although if I ever run into heat generation issues just from stills then my tune will change.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> But again if you NEED those modes 100% of time the R5 is not for you.



Well, I think there's a difference between "needing those modes 100% of the time" and "being able to use these advertised modes when you actually do need them, even if it's just for a minute". And the latter can't seeem to be guaranteed.
I mean they advertised those modes heavily, and it's fine that there are some heat limitations. I don't think it's as fine that it make the modes unpredictable due the heat buildup that almost never goes away.

For the photo shooters, how would you feel if Canon advertised the camera with 45MP and 12fps, but after a couple of hours it would just drop to 20MP and 3fps, and even after shutting it off it could take two hours of off-time to recover. Would anyone agree that is fine and expected? 



> Does that suck? Sure if you need modes never offered in a Canon camera before but again only you know if you NEED those modes.


I'm sorry if I'm expecting more video features in a camera marketed for video than in my 5D Mark IV or my 1DX Mark II. Other manufacturers seem to be able to push forward. How is the "never offered before" even an argument?


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 31, 2020)

WriteLight said:


> Just want to jump in here with my $.02....I've had the R5 since yesterday afternoon. First off, the image quality is absolutely stunning (using an RF 24-105 f/4) and the autofocus is so good it's tough to describe. I was able to hand-hold a 3 second shot and have it come out sharp, which speaks to how good the IBIS is. I'm going to test to see how it does in low light tonight and can't wait to see how that turns out.
> 
> For those wondering about CFexpress compatibility, I am using the Sony Tough 128 GB card (1700/1480) with absolutely no issues.
> 
> ...


To get into 120 you need to be not in 4K fine(HQ) and then you select High Frame rate in the menus



sorry about the cellphone pic


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## WriteLight (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> To get into 120 you need to be not in 4K fine(HQ) and then you select High Frame rate in the menus
> View attachment 191726
> 
> 
> sorry about the cellphone pic


You're the best! Thanks! Still working my way through the manual...


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## SteveC (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> To get into 120 you need to be not in 4K fine(HQ) and then you select High Frame rate in the menus
> View attachment 191726
> 
> 
> sorry about the cellphone pic



WHat, you couldn't use the R5 to take the pic? (Was it overheated?)


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## Max TT (Jul 31, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> We get it, you are the authority on what the R5 can do and when exactly it overheats or not, and everyone else is just lying to get clicks. Yeah, not gonna reply to the rest of this as we're going around in circles.


LOL I have ignored him since yesterday. Stalkerish and deluded type, guzzling that company kool-aid.

But I feel you Loibisch, to me they need to find a way to extend the overheating time a bit more, and more importantly they need to solve the heat build up that occurs by just having the camera in standby or stills mode.

The inadvertent heat build up in the non-video modes and even standby, effectively means the guidelines for recording times are incorrect, and are best case scenarios and not real world scenarios. This can lead some to say the camera does not function as intended. If they can't understand that, they aren't being objective.

I don't know why people aren't understanding this, especially those that portray themselves as professionals. The platform just seems too unpredictable to use as a professional who shoots stills along with any sort of video.

If your camera overheats on a paid shoot and causes delays, you can kiss a future job goodbye. And for some of us who get jobs through ad agencies, that can mean multiple jobs vanishing. Granted you should have two cameras at all times on any professional level, but still... You know what I mean.

Also most are focusing on the R5, but too me the R6 is in an even tougher position, with thermal limitations in every 4k mode. Compromises made to the overall resolution of the sensor, and compromises on all 4k modes, thats a tough pill to swallow. And it's nestled in an increasingly competitive price range.

One or two think I am bashing, or think these youtubers are bashing, but these things are not made up out of thin air, it's a fact that the issues exist. Its not perceived.

Some of you need to start a site called Canon Lovers where you only speak about good things, rainbows and flowers and stuffs.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 31, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Let me start by saying I am not discounting this use case, but I will say how are people solving this issue today? If they are using Cameras without the higher quality modes like the EOS R they are simply recording the event in the mode that works. I would argue the R5 has modes that just work. If Canon unlocks 1080 120 or 240 that is not thermal limited they are giving that same EOS R wedding shooter another tool. I wish 4k 120 was not thermal restricted cause this will be where I make money, but since I have been making money with the R's CRAP 720 this is going to be a joy



Agree. This is why I'm not outraged by the camera. If you consider what we now can do with what we previously had, I'm super excited about getting the R5. I am disappointed the these higher end modes won't have typical Canon reliability, but will need to see how I can implement them in my workflow. It may turn out that I don't use them. Much the way I decided not to use 4K in the EOS R since I didn't care for the crop, I may just eliminate the high end modes and stick with 4K24 since it "just works". But that is still an upgrade from the EOS R so why wouldn't I be happy? +1 on a firmware update to add HD120 (240 would be a dream and probably the thing I'm most jealous of on the A7SIII).

Like any gear, we are going to run into limitations. Instead of wasting my time complaining, I'm more concerned in identifying the limitations, seeing if there's any workarounds, and just working within them which was the whole point of my previous post. One thing that always happens with limitation is that it can breed creativity. I will need to make a conscientious choice to use the higher modes, so forethought in what I shoot will be required, so hopefully it will be a better shot because of that preparation. Would it be nice to have unlimited footage? Yes, but then that's a lot more garbage takes I'll have to sift through later.

I also think it reasonable to expect Canon to do something with firmware updates to help address some of these limitations.


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## AlP (Jul 31, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> So many simple reasons.
> 
> 
> The R5 body is a LOT smaller than the 1DX3, guessing you have not seen a side by side. It is smaller than a 5D4 and even a 6D
> ...



It might not be so simple.
Sealing plays no role here, or would only play a role if the gaps would be very large allowing significant airflow through them. That's not the case for both cameras.
With IBIS, the issue is not (only) the mass. The issue is that if you want to transfer heat away from the sensor efficiently, you need something with good thermal conductivity and a large cross-section, coupled to the sensor. That can be done with copper braids for example, but the more copper you add (to increase the cross section) the stiffer the braid gets. And that means that vibrations of the camera body also couple better to the floating part of the IBIS assembly, which is what one wants to avoid. So that's a tradeoff.

What one would try to do to get the heat off the processor (and sensor) would be to couple these thermally as well as possible to the largest thermal mass in the device and to the best heat radiating and heat dissipating (through convection or external airflow, or...) part. That's the camera body.
The 1DXIII seems to have some sort of direct coupling to the body (I read it somewhere but might be wrong). It's also a larger body and therefore has a larger mass and a larger area which can be used to dissipate heat.
But I think coupling is key, and that is probably the only thing that the only test showing the A7SIII overheating before the R5 really shows: That the Sony has a very good thermal coupling between the body and the processor. I am willing to bet that if the test would have been done in the shade at the same air temperature, the outcome would have been different. Overheating was likely caused by the body becoming very warm under the sun and reducing the thermal gradient compared to the still warmer processor.

The R5 seems to have a very weak coupling between the magnesium body and the processor. That would mean that heat from the processor can only be dissipated through the copper traces of the PCB and the air in the body which is a bad thermal conductor and hasn't a lot of space to circulate. That's probably why putting ice on the camera won't help (and in general why the recovery times are so long), as that will cool the camera body, but will not remove heat from the internals. And that's also probably why the R5 takes longer to overheat under the sun, as the body might heat up faster than in the shade, but the processor doesn't directly and immediately feel that.
The S1H doesn't care as there is a fan making sure that there is sufficient airflow across an external heatsink which internally couples to the processor.

Quite possible that this is a deliberate choice by canon to isolate sensor/processor from external temperature changes (but then why state that the magnesium body helps dissipating heat?). Quite possible that this is a cost-cutting measure to simplify assembly of the camera.


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## millan (Jul 31, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Don't forget the 5D MK II recall that put a piece of black tape in to stop a light leak.


I guess it was 5D Mark III. I was checking the serial number of affected units before buying mine.


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## unfocused (Jul 31, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> There are lots of reasons why nobody has reported issues with the 1DX III, not least of which it doesn't shoot 8k, nor 4k 120, probably because there is no way Canon would push their 1 series that hard with untested (put to market) tech. But the 1 series also does not have IBIS which acts as a sensor isolator complicating heat mitigation and they do have room and experience inside the 1 series bodies to engineer some heat away.
> 
> Having been a 1 series user for years I am sometimes disappointed in how conservative Canon are with that model, when things like this happen I am very glad they are.


Thanks. 

Not being a video person, I have not paid any attention to the differences in what the two bodies can shoot. I suspected that the R5 might have more heat-generating options but wasn't sure. One of these days I'll get around to trying the video on the 1Dx III, but now that most of my college fall sports are moving to spring, it may be awhile. Side note: I was joking with the cross country and women's golf coaches that they are going to get the best coverage from me this year that they've ever gotten.


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## Amy Worrall (Jul 31, 2020)

I still think half of the issue would have been mitigated if they advertised the camera's video specs based on only the modes that are not heat limited… "Does 4k30 without a crop!". Then they could say "Can also record small clips of 8k, 4k60, and 4kHQ, temperature permitting", in smaller letters.

I am more disappointed that the R6 does not have a 4k30 mode that is not heat limited. I managed to upsell myself on the R5 just because of that — I'm only thinking of the reliable non-heat-limited modes as what the camera can do, so for me the R6 cannot do 4k.


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## mppix (Jul 31, 2020)

3.V Audio & Video said:


> Canon themselves recommended using an external fan to cool it down - why? I ask why because it seems fans and even placing it in a fridge does not help much at all since the thermal insulation that prevents heat from entering the camera body will also prevent this type of cooling to become effective. This I conclude from watching a few videos. But I really hope I am wrong.
> 
> I am taking a wild guess here, but I think since Canon has a cooling patent (?) design (CR presented it recently), I think the R5/R6 is "already designed" to easily accept the patent's implementation (hardware side). I think that Canon may have prepared themselves for this perceived overheating issue (made by the public and reviewers) before releasing the cameras. Thinking if it (the outcry) does get out of control, it will be easy to update/recall by a rather simple (relative to a redesign) "plug and play" and that would calm people down. Maybe they didn't do it from the start because it would cost them extra money, or parts were not available (Covid). Maybe they released far fewer units than expected this 1st batch to see what actual buyers had to say about it? Then again, why take a chance with their reputation if they new this could be a PR problem from the start?
> 
> I'm just speculating.


You are right - cold (or heat) not entering the body points to a faulty (or severely underdesigned) thermal interface. This is confirmed by testimonies that when the camera overheats, the body stays cold.

However, the "cooling adapter" is certainly ridiculous.


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## dlee13 (Jul 31, 2020)

If I remember correctly, even long before the release didn't Canon say there might be some small delays in shipping units do to COVID affecting production?


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## Andy Westwood (Jul 31, 2020)

Remember all the fuss when the 5D4 came out re the video codec and the huge files created, but nobody really talks about that now.

I shoot lots of simple video clips and still only shoot in 1080. I bought my M5 mostly as a 1080 video camera, because it had auto focus video and it was light and easy to use. Admittedly I haven’t really used the M5 since my EOS R arrived apart from a holiday camera.

It is the YouTubers creating the biggest fuss re the R5 and R6 re the overhearing issues and I get that because as video creators and bloggers I guess that is important to them.

It would appear the overheating issue when shooting hi-res video is a real problem with these new bodies. I would also worry re the possible long-term damage caused if all the time my camera was pushed to overheat every time I used it.

I can’t wait to buy an R6 for it’s stills capabilities AF performance, IBIS, lowlight capabilities and all the other improvements over my original R. I was also thinking to up the vids to 25fps 4K IPB but if it is causing overheating, I’ll simply stick with 1080 which my clients never complain about anyway.

Maybe Canon can improve the overheating issue with a combination of firmware and some kind of heat dispersing / cooling adaptor for those who need to shoot such hi-res for longer periods, either way it won’t put me off buying an R6.


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## scyrene (Aug 1, 2020)

Skux said:


> Imagine being an early adopter and getting the worst version of the hardware before Canon improves it for future allocations.



Don't early adopters always run the risk of getting a product that's rough around the edges?


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## twoheadedboy (Aug 1, 2020)

_2 ex_


Amy Worrall said:


> I still think half of the issue would have been mitigated if they advertised the camera's video specs based on only the modes that are not heat limited… "Does 4k30 without a crop!". Then they could say "Can also record small clips of 8k, 4k60, and 4kHQ, temperature permitting", in smaller letters.
> 
> I am more disappointed that the R6 does not have a 4k30 mode that is not heat limited. I managed to upsell myself on the R5 just because of that — I'm only thinking of the reliable non-heat-limited modes as what the camera can do, so for me the R6 cannot do 4k.



If it was 24 MP, had focus stacking, and non-heat-limited 4k 30p, I would have bought the R6 instead of the R5, even if it was $500 more.


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## wyotex43n (Aug 1, 2020)

I received my R5 yesterday. Does anyone know what the semi circular piece on left side of the back is for? Possible knock out for additional cooling  

I also received the rf 15-35. But I did not receive the adapter ring. Everything is very familiar and Canon like but with a lot of new features. 
I have only had time for a few snapshots but the image quality looks great. AF is spot on. Eye AF is impressive.


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## cornieleous (Aug 1, 2020)

To put my money where my mouth is, I ran my own test today. Summary from another post where the detailed setup is described.

*My real customer overheating test. Camera pre-ordered from BH Photo at 6:05AM 7/9/20 and arrived yesterday. Ran a test I believe will cover MY needs and beyond, and to see if the camera would meet the stated run times (it does).

TEST SUMMARY: R5 with EF 24-105mm mk1 on control ring adapter. Batteries used are old LP-E6, mostly charged (90%). In constant direct sunlight @ 85 degrees ambient with low air flow, 5000kft altitude, moderate humidity. Camera mostly stationary. I was able to get the R5 to do the following, back to back:*

*30 mins 4K60P IPB*
*30 mins 1080P*
*Took a couple stills, no issues*
*30 mins 4K30P (quick battery swap midway through)*
*8.5 mins 4K60P (The thermal warning started flashing right away when this recording started)*
*Automatic thermal shutdown @ 8.5 mins into second 4K60P*
*20 minute cool down in 75 degrees with airflow (normal AC house)*
*Restarted with no thermal warning for 4K60P*
*Ended test*
*Compared temp at various times against powered-off 5D4 and 6D both also in the direct sunlight. At end of all tests, R5 was 10-15 degrees hotter (estimated by touch) than powered-off cameras.*

For MY needs, this is quite reasonable and it met and exceeded what Canon said it would. In direct sun I expect any camera to eventually get too hot, especially these tiny bodies. This thing is a stills beast that can do competent FF video, but may not be an all day cinema camera. The amount of video it took in direct sun was more than I would ever do back to back. I'm sure variables are humidity, IBIS and focus activity, etc. but I was happy enough with this result which matched or exceeded the length promised by Canon in their own less strenuous testing. Is this the best do-it-all-in-one body camera for wedding photographers and event shooters who need high rate video? Doubt there really IS a body that can do-it-all-in-one that well yet. I own multiple brands of purpose built cameras for a reason. Hybrids are always a compromise.

The new Sony is a great example of a compromise in the opposite direction- 12MP not great for many stills applications but it will be better for many video users. In the real world though, it is reported as not all that much better at overheat than the R5 while pushing much less resolution and data. I'll stick to my Sony HXR-NX80 for long video shoots if I even need it anymore. Might be I am close enough for my video needs to sell it if the R5 continues to work out well.

Bottom line is these mirrorless bodies are small, very small. The 5D4 is larger. The R5 is weather sealed. It has IBIS and a giant MP sensor (relatively) to read out. It has incredible focusing system, great screen and viewfinder, wonderful ergonomics (except the small size that some of us don't like as well).

Folks can continue to loudly lament that it is not what they THOUGHT they heard promised, and call those of us embracing it ignorant fanboys if that floats their boat, or they can objectively start to look at what it can do, or look to more suitable products. If it is not for everyone, no worries I'll enjoy it, but I think this camera has had a very unrealistic public reaction lead by some very poor reviews and a lot of emotionalism without objectivity. Canon definitely could have marketed more smartly instead of blaring the video capabilities to an uninformed and entitled public- that set them up for trouble. They can and should improve the heating issue if possible. However overall this is the camera many of us waited for to move up from the 5D4. I'm liking it so far, and if it improves in the future, great but there is likely only so far the intended design can be pushed. Just wish it wasn't so tiny!


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## Deleted member 378221 (Aug 1, 2020)

wyotex43n said:


> I received my R5 yesterday. Does anyone know what the semi circular piece on left side of the back is for?


Hmm, my best guess is that it is a bump protection for when you fold in the screen with the display pointed towards the back of the camera. Are those parts rubbery?

See the two little (probably rubbery) bumps to the very right of the display cutout? You can see similar bumps on the left side at the very ends of the half circle. It might be build as a half circle on this side to prevent pressure on the hinge.


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## mppix (Aug 1, 2020)

Max C said:


> LOL I have ignored him since yesterday. Stalkerish and deluded type, guzzling that company kool-aid.
> 
> But I feel you Loibisch, to me they need to find a way to extend the overheating time a bit more, and more importantly they need to solve the heat build up that occurs by just having the camera in standby or stills mode.
> 
> ...



Look, there are many here surprised by the video limitations -again- (its like a deja-vu to 5Div 4K complaints).
We all understand that the specs make the camera less capable for professional video work, but many simply don't care enough.

However, I also don't understand the buzz about mirrorless video for professional work. Maybe you can elaborate more.

We -as at my workplace- do quite some professional video work. Once we rig up cameras for said work, you kind of want to spend the C200+ money because it makes life so much easier, gives options that are simply not available otherwise, and it really does not change the overall budget by relevant margin.
Maybe I get vloggers and streamers, but who needs cinema-grade 4/8K just to be ruined by youtube, etc. compression algorithms? Shoot with an iphone, no?

PS. if you want to get paid more than once, bring the right+proven tools+backup for the job .every.single.time. Pros need lots of tools.


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## Bert63 (Aug 1, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I think the Camera is Performing as Canon stated but they should have clarified that the record times are from a cold unit. I took my R5 out last night and shot 249 images full Raw, and was able to switch to 8K IPB and had 15mins showing, which I think was the SD cards limit cfexpress card should be here today.



Pictures or it didn’t happen..


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## mppix (Aug 1, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> Esternal recorder however helps a lot, basically 4K60 unlimited going to a Ninja V. But you won't be able to use 4k120, 4k HQ or 8k for even a minute once you've built up the internal heat this way.


This is what I don't get: every other manufacturer overspecs HDMI out in the Cameras to bypass overheating with external recorders.
Canon consistently underspecs HDMI. The 5Div had up to 1080 only; the R5 has up to 4K60 (HDMI2.0). Still HDMI with 8K/30 or 4K120 is out there (HDMI2.1).


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## Bert63 (Aug 1, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> Without going into too much detail, the issue is that heat builds up and never goes away. So I could be out taking pictures for an hour or so, causing the camera to accumulate heat. That heat never seems to go away due to the insulation of internal components.
> 
> So what that means if I ever want to use the 4K120fps or 8K modes _at all_, I have to do so at the start of my day. But being an event shooter I can't control when I need slow motion recordings, and I can't just leave the R5 off and in the bag the whole day just to be able to use one of it's basic functions.



Sounds like this isn’t the camera for you then.


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## lexptr (Aug 1, 2020)

Wow! Problems seems to be worrisome. Someone wrote here the camera's underside gets severely warm during shooting? How hot the interior should be then? Video aside, how it affects stills? How it will hold up in desert?

Now, video-wise, I rarely use it, but when I do - it is usually not the start of my shooting day. I agree here with few people heavily complaining about unpredictability. 8k isn't of my interest, by 4k with high framerate is very interesting. And here we talk about chances? That feels wrong. I hope it is not that terrible in real use. Or things will be improved with updates.

By the way, regarding updates. It can be a paid fix/improvement, like 5dmk4 case. They did a paid upgrade for early adopters to add C-Log support, if I remember correctly. It was 100$ addition via authorized service (which I personally decided to skip). So, I think, we can expect a paid solutions here too.

In all other respects, the camera seems to be absolutely amazing. They hit so many bullets in my wish list for better-than-5dmk4 camera. The only two things I can complain about from specs: somewhat low battery life and lack of built-in GPS. Any ways, for me it is impossible not to want to switch to R system any more. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I don't have spare budget for that right now. So I'll wait and see how things will turn out.


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## David - Sydney (Aug 1, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> I was really surprised by 3 things with my R5:
> 
> I don't really like the way you have to flip it to and from video mode, but I will rarely use video and rarely change the settings (I pretty much expect to use 4k 30p non-HQ all the time) so it's not really a big deal.


Can you go straight to video shooting by pressing the video button (assuming that the video settings are already setup) or do you need to press mode then info first (is it mode+info at the same time?)? Underwater housing means I can't press 2 buttons at once and even 2 sequential buttons (on top then back) will be painful to switch.


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## Bert63 (Aug 1, 2020)

Darrell Cadieux said:


> I have read several rather nasty reports that the R5 is overheating while shooting stills. I want one primarily for wedding photography where I am going to shoot 2000+ frames in a day...many in rapid succession. Has anyone else heard of these problems?




Read THIS and I think you’ll agree the camera is safe for stills shooting.


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 1, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Pictures or it didn’t happen..


@Bert63 If I had the power to get you a R5 I would do it in a second. I think you would/will really enjoy the Camera I am hoping someone that is in front of your order cancels so you get it ASAP.


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## David - Sydney (Aug 1, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> They were each 4k recorders, it needed four cutting edge 4k recorders to save 8k footage.


Can the R5 use the ethernet connection to record raw video (via grip)? Would that be a faster speed than the HDMI2 port (I believe HDMI2.1 is needed for 8k raw)? Could this provide an option for reduction of heat buildup?


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## Bert63 (Aug 1, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Every thread just bashing. We must do something? I'll be out shooting with my new R5 this weekend. You'll be here thinking you are saving the world trying to get the R5 changed into your perfect video camera instead of just buying a video camera.



Thank you.


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## Bert63 (Aug 1, 2020)

Ramage said:


> @Bert63 If I had the power to get you a R5 I would do it in a second. I think you would/will really enjoy the Camera I am hoping someone that is in front of your order cancels so you get it ASAP.




Bro - I just want to see some PITCHERS! GNAWHUTAHMSAYIN? PITCHERS NOW DAMMIT!

And I really appreciate the sentiment. I’m glad the bubbas are getting their toys and mine will be here one of these days.


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## Bert63 (Aug 1, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Several? List each one. Were they 100% from youtube reviewers? I have one in hand will do my own tests rather than listening to garbage.




I like this honest review... He pretty well flogged it.


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## BakaBokeh (Aug 1, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Can you go straight to video shooting by pressing the video button (assuming that the video settings are already setup) or do you need to press mode then info first (is it mode+info at the same time?)? Underwater housing means I can't press 2 buttons at once and even 2 sequential buttons (on top then back) will be painful to switch.


If it's anything like the R. Yes. Hitting the record button while in photo mode will record in whatever you set the C3 settings as.

To swap modes, hit mode dial, info, half press shutter. It's not as convenient as a video switch like on the 5D, but it's actually a kind of easy and fun to do , once you get the muscle memory down switching between photo and video.


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 1, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Heat is not unpredictable, it is actually simple. The hotter the ambient air, the less a source can cool. The more the camera is doing, the more heat it produces.



The heat is not unpredictable, but it's not simple either. You'd have to use differential equations to calculate heat distribution and dissipation. It may not be as simple as you described especially when you want to predict the actual temperature (not just claim it'll get hotter).


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## Bert63 (Aug 1, 2020)

Ramage said:


> My Camera is sitting at my desk while I work from home. The power is on and has been for an hour and I can still take photos, I can still record video.
> 
> This BS that the camera is overheating just sitting there needs to stop cause it is simply not true.
> 
> NO way NO how Canon would release the Camera without weeks of Soak testing the Camera.



If you leave it on the backseat of your car in Miami in July for three hours before shooting you might have a problem.

If you leave it on a picnic table in direct sunlight in California in July before shooting you might have a problem.

If you’re shooting video and pushing the described limits repeatedly in Arizona in July before shooting stills you might have a problem.

If you educate yourself on the limits and try to work within them you might have a different experience. I don’t know - I haven’t tried up here in the PNW where today we hit a steaming 72 degrees.


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 1, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Bro - I just want to see some PITCHERS! GNAWHUTAHMSAYIN? PITCHERS NOW DAMMIT!



I missed Golden hour last night but I like how much was was able to recover in the shadows. Not bangers for sure but I was limited on time. Will make sure to get out and take a ton. 


Lifted


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## Deleted member 378221 (Aug 1, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Sounds like this isn’t the camera for you then.


First:
That's not really the point whether this camera is for me or not. I do a lot of stills work as well, so the R5 (once it arrives next week) will find some place in my kit and will easily replace the 5D4. It will play nicely alongside the 1DX2. 

Second:
The real question is "does it have to be that way", or can Canon fix it with better power management, slightly less conservative heat limits (within safety of course) or a hardware fix getting the heat away faster. Can they make usage of the fancy, advertised video modes be less clunky. I don't think any other camera on the market locks you out of the "premium" features for hours once it gets too warm.

Thanks to people drawing attention to these limitations, whether you think it's overblown or not, there is a small chance Canon will actually be "forced" to make the camera better. And each of the things I listed above will improve photo mode as well.

power management: more battery life
heat limits: it will not start to throttle shooting speed. Yes, temperature is a factor in that, as per the manual.
heat dissipation: less heat means less sensor noise

So instead of just repeating "it is what it is, deal with it, this camera is not for you or for serious video shooters, get a Cine Camera", think about why this has to be a Canon-god-given fact when other manufacturers can just do better in this regard. 
From the CR Guy backchatter it seems they're at least looking into it. So what's the problem with that, I'm glad if they do.


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 1, 2020)

unfocused said:


> drops to a reasonable price



You could remove all the video features short of what the 5D4 can do and the R5 would still be a bargain. This camera barely costs more than a 5D4 did at launch and when you adjust for inflation it‘s a wash.

The camera is already very reasonably priced IMO.


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## Bert63 (Aug 1, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> To put my money where my mouth is, I ran my own test today. Summary from another post where the detailed setup is described.
> 
> *My real customer overheating test. Camera pre-ordered from BH Photo at 6:05AM 7/9/20 and arrived yesterday. Ran a test I believe will cover MY needs and beyond, and to see if the camera would meet the stated run times (it does).
> 
> ...



Thank you. Clear and to the point and actually more than I expected it would do given all the YouBOOB drama.


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 1, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> First:
> That's not really the point whether this camera is for me or not. I do a lot of stills work as well, so the R5 (once it arrives next week) will find some place in my kit and will easily replace the 5D4. It will play nicely alongside the 1DX2.
> 
> Second:
> ...


@Loibisch I think we are all in favor of making the camera better, it just that a lot of us do not see it as being all that broken right now.

While saying things like "It heats up taking pictures" (Not saying you did) is factual it is how people that do not understand all Cameras heat up while the power is on see that statement.

The fact the camera does shutdown when it reaches its thermal protection limit shooting high resolution or high framerate video cannot be denied. My issue is what happens on the internet when the big game of telephone starts repeating things and people that do not know any better or are just pushing their agenda start saying things like it "shuts down taking pictures".

That kind of noise is hard for Canon to filter through because they know it does not shutdown taking picture. While I do not agree with the way you are saying your piece I agree with what you are saying.

If we can PUSH Canon to make what I feel is already an awesome camera better that is a win.


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## LSXPhotog (Aug 1, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> So many simple reasons.
> 
> 
> The R5 body is a LOT smaller than the 1DX3, guessing you have not seen a side by side. It is smaller than a 5D4 and even a 6D
> ...


Just so you are aware, the 1DX Mark III shoots at 2600 Mbps in 5.6K RAW and 1800 Mbps in regular video codec....so it's an extremely high bitrate video camera as well.


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## dtaylor (Aug 1, 2020)

At first I thought this was nothing but YouTube drama given the fact that just about every hybrid camera which over samples 4k will overheat. Sony's bodies overheat. Fuji's bodies overheat. Panasonic's FF bodies overheat, unless you have the one with the fan. Times vary by camera and conditions, but everything without a fan will overheat if you push it hard enough. Dedicated cinema cameras have fans for this reason.

But looking at all the information that's out now...this is a problem, and I'm shocked Canon released the R5/R6 this way. Recovery times are absurd. People are reporting overheated cameras that feel cool to the touch. And simply having these cameras on severely cuts into the available time. There's something off with the engineering which causes these cameras to retain heat instead of shedding it to the environment. An X-T3 or A73 might overheat as well, but they don't need to sit overnight to record again. Their bodies get warm to the touch. They shed the heat.

It's one thing to tell video guys they're looking at the wrong cameras for 2 hour, over sampled, 4k interviews. It's another thing entirely to tell a wedding guy he can't get even 1m of 4k60 because he has been shooting stills all day.

I don't know if Canon can do something to fix it short of a mark II redesign. But if there is a relatively simple hardware fix, they should stop the line, fix it, and perform a recall. If I was an executive at Canon I would be looking at exactly this. Even if it meant some copper heat piping to a new, aluminum bottom plate (assuming there's even room to run the copper). Anything to get these cameras to shed their heat so that recovery times are reasonable and max recording times are not ruined by simply turning the camera on.

This is not good, especially for the R6 which is far less compelling at its price point absent *usable* 4k30/4k60. In my view this is a stumble comparable to the 1D mark III AF issues. Maybe worse given the state of the market.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 1, 2020)

Ramage said:


> @Loibisch I think we are all in favor of making the camera better, it just that a lot of us do not see it as being all that broken right now.



If you're a stills guy upgrading from a 5D3 or 5D4 to the R5, it doesn't seem like a big deal because the R5 has so much to offer photographically. But if you're doing jobs which require hybrid shooting, this is simply broken in a way that may send you to another brand. Same for a hobbyist who is just as interested in video as in stills. Or for a Canon user who is happy with their stills kit but looking to add a solid video body.

IMHO this destroys the appeal of the R6. Take away the video features from the R6. Now why would you drop $2,500 on the R6 instead of any of a number of other cheaper Canon bodies, to say nothing of competing bodies with usable video?



> The fact the camera does shutdown when it reaches its thermal protection limit shooting high resolution or high framerate video cannot be denied. My issue is what happens on the internet when the big game of telephone starts repeating things and people that do not know any better or are just pushing their agenda start saying things like it "shuts down taking pictures".



Are we certain it won't? So far guys have been testing in southern CA at 80-90F, and that's enough to heat the camera to the point that most video modes become unavailable after stills shooting. That means the camera is hot inside even if it does continue to shoot stills. Has anyone been out to the Mojave? Death Valley? Arizona? Utah? The Las Vegas strip? I've shot all day at airshows that were 90-100F, beaches that were well passed 90F, and I've been on hikes in the American southwest where temperatures peaked at over 100F. I've never had a Canon body or lens show any hint of failure under these conditions. Not even when the black-painted bodies were hot to the touch from sunlight. 

Are we *sure* these conditions won't push the R5 and/or R6 over the edge thermally? Honestly, everyone down playing this better brace themselves for the possibility. The first "influencer" who reports an R5 shutting down during stills shooting in the American southwest (or Africa or India...) is going to be a disaster for Canon. I'm not convinced that won't happen.


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 1, 2020)

I


dtaylor said:


> If you're a stills guy upgrading from a 5D3 or 5D4 to the R5, it doesn't seem like a big deal because the R5 has so much to offer photographically. But if you're doing jobs which require hybrid shooting, this is simply broken in a way that may send you to another brand. Same for a hobbyist who is just as interested in video as in stills. Or for a Canon user who is happy with their stills kit but looking to add a solid video body.
> 
> IMHO this destroys the appeal of the R6. Take away the video features from the R6. Now why would you drop $2,500 on the R6 instead of any of a number of other cheaper Canon bodies, to say nothing of competing bodies with usable video?
> 
> ...


I have overheated my 7D my 7DmkII my 6D. Each time this was at an AirShow with the Camera in direct sunlight sitting on a table. Each time this happened it was my fault. And each time I would put the Camera into the shade and be happy it turned back on after it cooled off a bit.

Today while working from home I left my R5 on for 2 hours sitting on my desk picking it up and taking it out of whatever sleep mode I could not fully disable. I started this little exercise with 10min and 51sec of record time in 8k IPB available. After the 2 hours I had 10min and 51sec of 8K IPB available. The idea the Camera has to heat up doing nothing is just silly. Does it retain heat like a thermos? It appears to, however that same property also provides protection from the elements.

So I say, sure someone will get it to overheat by cooking it taking stills and that same person will likely try and make a big deal about it becaue A.) Their stupid or B.)They have an agenda.


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## canonnews (Aug 1, 2020)

Max C said:


> This is why they must do something, no matter how many people defend Canon and say they don't care about video etc Their market valuation is what the people at Canon will be going to bed and waking up thinking about. And its a nightmare.
> 
> Their Stock has been slammed since launch, and trading at 21 year low on very high volumes. Not since 1999 have we seen these valuations. Which means that analyst with alot more information than us, that have both industry and company specific data see this launch as a failure, that will negatively impact financials.
> 
> With valuations like this, they will do something, and the market is already pricing some of that in. These are the kind of things that lead to layoffs, I don't want to see people lose their jobs, I hope they solve it.


You do realize that alot of companies are getting the stinky crap kicked out of them this valuation period right?

Canon exports globally - in case you haven't realized, that's not doing too well these days. Not sure why to be honest, but my ESP tells me something is happening 

Also, an ever smaller portion of their business is cameras - and even much smaller portion of that is full frame cameras.


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## cornieleous (Aug 1, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> It's one thing to tell video guys they're looking at the wrong cameras for 2 hour, over sampled, 4k interviews. It's another thing entirely to tell a wedding guy he can't get even 1m of 4k60 because he has been shooting stills all day.
> 
> This is not good, especially for the R6 which is far less compelling at its price point absent *usable* 4k30/4k60. In my view this is a stumble comparable to the 1D mark III AF issues. Maybe worse given the state of the market.



Who is telling wedding people that? Youtube reviewers?

I set my R5 in direct sunlight today in 85 degree ambient air. I shot back to back in order: 30 mins of 4K60P, 30 mins of 1080P, 30 mins of 4K30P, then 8.5 more mins of 4K60P before it shut itself down. In direct sunlight, with warm ambient air. 30 mins of 4K60P IPB was nearly 50GB- is it really practical? Also, I could have shot 1080P or 4K30 for a LOT longer, as those cycles did little to heat up the camera. For a while, the R5 was barely warmer than my powered off Canon 5D4 which I also set in the sun during the test. I'm pretty sure the reports of shooting stills preventing one minute of video later are either from Phoenix where it was 118 degrees today, or the reports are carelessly lacking all the things that came before to heat up the camera.

For most people, this is going to be very reliable. For people who are going to push its max capability, they will probably be more comfortable with a camcorder or other large and well cooled body.

Ever try to cool a large computer with lots of hard drives and GPUs when the AC is broke? If it is hot, all electronics cannot dump their heat fast enough- it requires cool ambient air to remove heat from the heatsink (in the case of the R5, the magnesium alloy body). If a device is doing enough, that needed ambient cooling temp can get very low indeed especially in compact electronics like cell phones and cameras. In my own test of the R5, it outperformed what Canon said it could do on paper in terms of overheating. It is great for my primarily stills use, with casual video. For a few who will always be pushing their camera at high rates, they could try the competition and find out it will overheat almost just as fast according to several recent tests. Or they could buy a proper air cooled cinema camera.

There IS no hybrid camera that can do full frame high framerate and high resolution and stills all in one tiny MILC body. The only place Canon really screwed up is marketing aggressively to an uneducated and entitled public. Wedding photographers convinced themselves there would be no trade offs and that they could have it all, but people need to face physics and get a little education, and listen to what Canon actually said instead of watching hyped reviews and passing bad info around.

Sure, it will be great if Canon can improve the situation, but for many it is going to be fine as is.


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## canonnews (Aug 1, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> It's one thing to tell video guys they're looking at the wrong cameras for 2 hour, over sampled, 4k interviews. It's another thing entirely to tell a wedding guy he can't get even 1m of 4k60 because he has been shooting stills all day.


pros never carry a backup camera?


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## canonnews (Aug 1, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> There IS no hybrid camera that can do full frame high framerate and high resolution and stills all in one tiny MILC body. The only place Canon really screwed up is marketing aggressively to an uneducated and entitled public. Wedding photographers convinced themselves there would be no trade offs and that they could have it all, but people need to face physics and get a little education, and listen to what Canon actually said instead of watching hyped reviews and passing bad info around.
> 
> Sure, it will be great if Canon can improve the situation, but for many it is going to be fine as is.


too many people thought that for $4,000 Canon was giving them a $20,000 video camera.


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## cornieleous (Aug 1, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I
> I have overheated my 7D my 7DmkII my 6D. Each time this was at an AirShow with the Camera in direct sunlight sitting on a table. Each time this happened it was my fault. And each time I would put the Camera into the shade and be happy it turned back on after it cooled off a bit.
> 
> Today while working from home I left my R5 on for 2 hours sitting on my desk picking it up and taking it out of whatever sleep mode I could not fully disable. I started this little exercise with 10min and 51sec of record time in 8k IPB available. After the 2 hours I had 10min and 51sec of 8K IPB available. The idea the Camera has to heat up doing nothing is just silly. Does it retain heat like a thermos? It appears to, however that same property also provides protection from the elements.
> ...



Agree that claim of the camera heating doing nothing is not holding water. I also tested that (idling) along with my sunlight video test.

I think the R5 seems to retain heat but is actually using the body as a heat sink more than in the past, which is good. Canon acknowledged changing the magnesium alloy to be a better thermal conductor, and it sure feels different than a 5D4. I suppose this same property may make it struggle more in the sun faster, but I was satisfied with over 90 minutes of various video in direct sun, including one run of 4K60P before it shut down. To do that to any electronics, let it bake in the sun like that, and expect infinite performance? That is crazy. I thought what it did do was super reasonable especially for its dense size, and it beat Canon's stated times.

One other interesting test I did, is hold it in my hand powered off for five minutes. Warmed it right up. The 5D4 never did that. To me that says the body conducts heat much better and is likely the heat sink. Maybe Canon should paint lenses AND cameras white to keep them cool in the sun.


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## marioslrzn (Aug 1, 2020)

Darrell Cadieux said:


> I have read several rather nasty reports that the R5 is overheating while shooting stills. I want one primarily for wedding photography where I am going to shoot 2000+ frames in a day...many in rapid succession. Has anyone else heard of these problems?


There’s no issues for stills, you can shoot stills to your battery runs dead or standard 4k30fps or lower. The issues are High bitrate videos are not available once the camera is been on for a while. That’s the thing people are complaining about. As a photographer you’re good to go. I think it’s Canon being conservative, cause you can shoot 4k30fps all day and the camera will never die, that’s why I think the high bit rates are in a time mode and not really a heat mode.


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## canonnews (Aug 1, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Agree that claim of the camera heating doing nothing is not holding water. I also tested that (idling) along with my sunlight video test.
> 
> I think the R5 seems to retain heat but is actually using the body as a heat sink more than in the past, which is good. Canon acknowledged changing the magnesium alloy to be a better thermal conductor, and it sure feels different than a 5D4. I suppose this same property may make it struggle more in the sun faster, but I was satisfied with over 90 minutes of various video in direct sun, including one run of 4K60P before it shut down. To do that to any electronics, let it bake in the sun like that, and expect infinite performance? That is crazy. I thought what it did do was super reasonable especially for its dense size, and it beat Canon's stated times.
> 
> One other interesting test I did, is hold it in my hand powered off for five minutes. Warmed it right up. The 5D4 never did that. To me that says the body conducts heat much better and is likely the heat sink. Maybe Canon should paint lenses AND cameras white to keep them cool in the sun.


All joking aside - you raise an interesting point. using the camera in direct sunlight may cause more issues with this camera than others and maybe a silver classic camera styling would have been better for it than pure black.

That also may be causing some variability in reports we're hearing as well - the amount of direct sunlight.


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## dtaylor (Aug 1, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Who is telling wedding people that? Youtube reviewers?



Their data points are no less valid than yours.



> I set my R5 in direct sunlight today in 85 degree ambient air. I shot back to back in order: 30 mins of 4K60P, 30 mins of 1080P, 30 mins of 4K30P, then 8.5 more mins of 4K60P before it shut itself down.



The 1080p and 4k30...unless the latter was HQ mode...are "fluff" in the sense that we know the R5 can shoot them continuously in 85F weather even after overheating. They line skip and don't use very much processing power. How long did it have to cool before it could do a full 30m of 4k30hq or 4k60 again? Now tomorrow shoot stills for a while and switch to 4k30hq or 4k60: how much can you get?



> For a while, the R5 was barely warmer than my powered off Canon 5D4 which I also set in the sun during the test.



That's part of the problem. It should have been much warmer, but the heat is getting trapped inside.



> I'm pretty sure the reports of shooting stills preventing one minute of video later are either from Phoenix where it was 118 degrees today, or the reports are carelessly lacking all the things that came before to heat up the camera.



Then you haven't looked at the reports.



> The only place Canon really screwed up is marketing aggressively to an uneducated and entitled public. Wedding photographers convinced themselves there would be no trade offs and that they could have it all, but people need to face physics and get a little education, and listen to what Canon actually said instead of watching hyped reviews and passing bad info around.



If the camera can't meet expectations and user needs then people will go to other brands for solutions whether you think they are entitled or not. I would agree that continuous 8k / 4k60 / 4k30hq from a 45mp sensor would be unrealistic without a fan. But looking at the competition it is not unrealistic to expect acceptable recovery times, or to expect to be able to shoot stills all day and still have max or near max recording time.

It's like the cameras are insulated. That's a problem.


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## marioslrzn (Aug 1, 2020)

I think Canon is just being conservative with the heat tolerance. How is the Camera able to do 4k30fps for hours and never overheat and get hotter than when shooting 8k raw. Armando said the camera was cold to the touch, the battery was cold but still couldn’t shoot 8k. That leads me to believe the camera is not on a heat tolerance but more a time restriction. That Explains Dan Watson test against the R5 and A7siii, How is the canon always the same 33min in the hoT direct sunlight and 33 minutes in the air condition, doesn’t make since, if it was heat limited the times would be much longer inside than outside but that’s not the case. I think Canon is going to release a firmware update to have unlimited 4k60fps and 4k120fps and maybe 90min of 4kHQ...something tells me canon was just waiting for the a7siii to release


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## dtaylor (Aug 1, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I have overheated my 7D my 7DmkII my 6D. Each time this was at an AirShow with the Camera in direct sunlight sitting on a table. Each time this happened it was my fault. And each time I would put the Camera into the shade and be happy it turned back on after it cooled off a bit.



I shot with a 7D for years and never had it overheat. Not even at Edwards. The tables themselves must have been hot as...heck to do that.



> So I say, sure someone will get it to overheat by cooking it taking stills and that same person will likely try and make a big deal about it becaue A.) Their stupid or B.)They have an agenda.



If someone sets their R5 on a sizzling hot table and it overheats, I'll agree with you. If it overheats shooting stills in hand it will be a PR nightmare.


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## dtaylor (Aug 1, 2020)

marioslrzn said:


> I think Canon is just being conservative with the heat tolerance. How is the Camera able to do 4k30fps for hours and never overheat and get hotter than when shooting 8k raw. Armando said the camera was cold to the touch, the battery was cold but still couldn’t shoot 8k. That leads me to believe the camera is not on a heat tolerance but more a time restriction. That Explains Dan Watson test against the R5 and A7siii, How is the canon always the same 33min in the hoT direct sunlight and 33 minutes in the air condition, doesn’t make since, if it was heat limited the times would be much longer inside than outside but that’s not the case. I think Canon is going to release a firmware update to have unlimited 4k60fps and 4k120fps and maybe 90min of 4kHQ...something tells me canon was just waiting for the a7siii to release



I hope you're right, and that the same is true on the R6. I still think it's ridiculous to ship with such an issue, but if it's a firmware bug that's a lot better than a materials/engineering bug.


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## marioslrzn (Aug 1, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> Actually, GDs test did:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287197307398692864
> Also basically everyone testing the camera agreed that when the camera has heat built up, it will take hours to cool down. So it's not hard to find scenarios where that will prevent you from shooting any of the modes above 4K30.


But you keep coming back like the camera is useless and won’t work. Everybody understands that the high bit rates are limited. The camera never stops working for stills, standard 4k30fps , crop 1.5 oversampled 4k, 1080p120fps, 108060fps. So if you can’t live without 4k60fps 4k120fps or 8k unlimited, then this camera is not for you....so before you buy ask yourself do you need those unlimited. I think people that are buying this camera know that for stills and 4k30fps and under this camera will work flawless, Canon was stupid to give people these high bit rates and should of released them as a firmware. Then no one would be complaining about the camera and the high bit rates would of came as a bonus firmware and people would of been cheering that canon gave them a firmware with 8k, 4k60fps, 4k120fps which it’s competitors don’t offer none of them do. The A7r4 which is it’s closes competitor the R5 beats it in every possible scenario and yet canon comes out as the bad guy..


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## Max TT (Aug 1, 2020)

canonnews said:


> You do realize that alot of companies are getting the stinky crap kicked out of them this valuation period right?
> 
> Canon exports globally - in case you haven't realized, that's not doing too well these days. Not sure why to be honest, but my ESP tells me something is happening
> 
> Also, an ever smaller portion of their business is cameras - and even much smaller portion of that is full frame cameras.



Since launch of R6 and R5

Sony up 12.5%
Fuji up 4%
Panasonic level
Nikon down 8%
Canon down 12% on robust volumes

Agreed its a tough financial time for everyone, but Canon has underperformed everyone. With a poor earnings report, coupled with this release and the bleak overall economic picture, it's naive to think Canon is big enough to be insulated from a product release that has gone wrong. I am not saying that it can be catastrophic, but it will impact stock valuation in the near term.

Now when times are good, hiccups like this can be absorbed with cash flow being abundant, but in these lean and trying times, valuation will behave more volatile. You can reference the old adage, it's a straw that can break a camels back. Go look at their cash flow position year over year.

Now, granted you may not think that the product launch was a fail and everything is honkey doory in your mind... but the narrative out there isnt good, no matter how much you deny it or debate about it here.

Go do brief search on Canon R6 or Canon R5, what do you see? Exactly!!! That shit, is going to impact sales, that's what regular consumers are going to see.

Unless of course you also think Canon sales are only supported by you lot. Who see no issues and nothing but blue skies.

With that said, I hope they figure out a solution for those that have issues with the overheating, because I don't wish for them to fail, I don't wish for the product to flop, I just wish for them to do better. For you everything is ok and that's fine. For me not so much. And that's fine too.


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## Dragon (Aug 1, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> What is the deal with that crazy stack of four external monitors at the back of the camera??


Probably each recording 1/4th of the image.


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## Dragon (Aug 1, 2020)

Cee Log said:


> NoFilmSchool has done the most thorough R5 overheating test so far:
> 
> https://nofilmschool.com/testing-canon-r5-overheating
> 
> ...


This test was very thorough for an initial test and reported factually without any hype or BS. One thing to note was they left the camera on when cooling it down and there is no mention of the viewfinder refresh rate. The manual clearly states that the "smooth" (120 Hz) refresh rate consumes more power than the 60 Hz refresh rate. The manual also recommends turning off the camera when not in use for fastest cooldown, which makes perfect sense. Bottom line, I see nothing in the test that suggests that I would ever encounter an overheating issue for how I would use the camera.


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## cornieleous (Aug 1, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Their data points are no less valid than yours.
> 
> The 1080p and 4k30...unless the latter was HQ mode...are "fluff" in the sense that we know the R5 can shoot them continuously in 85F weather even after overheating. They line skip and don't use very much processing power. How long did it have to cool before it could do a full 30m of 4k30hq or 4k60 again? Now tomorrow shoot stills for a while and switch to 4k30hq or 4k60: how much can you get?
> 
> ...



When user expectations are unrealistic, I don't know what any company can do. People interpreted the marketing as they could shoot 4K60/120 and 8K all day in any environment. Neither Canon R5 or any competition can do it. Canon was careless with marketing, the limits should have been part of the main bullets.

When people are posting hyped videos and getting paid to be talking heads and produce click bait- yes, their data points are sometimes less valid than a real customer. I have seen some of these "reviews" and a few are complete fools with no capability for intellect, making emotional content or deliberate sensationalism to make money. Some are not and make valid points. For the worst reviewers, their logical fallacies and amateur tests with poor reporting on sequence and conditions help no one. Then uneducated people who have little technical knowledge and no first hand experience go around parroting that bad info. 

The narrative isn't good, you're absolutely right, but in large part because so many people are negative and prone to outrage these days. Canon has learned the hard way that the average buyer looking for the next big thing today is uneducated technically speaking, and thinks they can have everything in a tiny body. Most people know nothing about physics or how electronics technology actually works and think they are important for buying 'the best'. Where is the outrage that the Sony also over heats in several reviews? I own a Sony camera, so I'm no brand elitist. I just want rationality and objectivity. 

You call my low resolution tests fluff but I was adamantly clear that I was testing for MY needs in a scenario that would envelope any scenario I would use for stills and casual video. I have a dedicated video camera for long shooting though. I also explained how ridiculous I think it is to expect a tiny mirrorless to ever be able to cool itself with high frame rate high resolution and IBIS combined, which you seem to agree with. The camera did more than what Canon said it would do for me, so that is enough for me. After about 20 minutes of cooling in an air conditioned room after a full auto shutdown, I had access to 4K60P again with no warnings or limits in the display. Regardless, I am not expecting this camera to do what I imagine or think I need, only what Canon tells me it can do which they did before anyone could buy it. They gave us the conditions their tests were run at and told us about this up front, which not every company does.

On thermals, industrial circuit parts are typically rated to 85°C worst-case use, processors and sensors may tolerate less. In a weather sealed tiny body with all the things these cameras are doing today, that temp is not far off unless the body can transfer heat to the air fast enough to stay ahead or in equilibirum thermally. Even reducing chip power consumption starts to become a minor slow down to the inevitable overheat. No one manufacturer is so far ahead they are going to solve that in a MILC with lots of data moving and compromises like weather sealing and IBIS that make cooling harder.

The heat may be mildly insulated from transfer to outside by weather sealing points but the body itself is the heatsink as Canon has said, and they used a specific magnesium alloy for this body to that end, since magnesium is not a great thermal conductor itself compared to copper. I assume the thermal paths are somewhat well designed _for its intended use_ but a tiny MILC body that uses the magnesium alloy for heat dissipation has too many hot thermals close together to move the heat out unless the body is cooled rapidly or the activity stays within intended use. If your heat sink is hot and so is ambient air, you cannot remove heat fast enough. If the source keeps producing heat, things get worse not better. I've done product testing professionally and I know plenty about cooling circuits; will leave it at that.

The newest competition from Sony is running 12MP. Their IBIS is weaker. Their bitrates lower. The heat source is already cooler. They may have a more effective heat sink, and less weather sealing to allow some minor passive heat loss. Of course it will run some amount longer with cool ambient air, but if you are not cherry picking your reviewers, there are already many reports that theirs overheats as fast or worse in certain hot conditions, but is somewhat better in cooler ambient air than the R5. It is also not great for stills.

I don't want people to be silent about concerns, but for people to be educated, fair and objective when they present them and stop being so emotional and bashing things with negativity and no real knowledge. I want real reasoning, not parroting paid reviewers, etc. If the product is not for you, I wish you the best with whatever, truly! Same for all the people I have disagreed with on this forum, I wish them the best. I also hope Canon can improve the situation, although I think contacting a company directly can be a great way to get a message to them rather than spewing into the aether. For me, the R5 already does what it was designed to do and I was ok with that at purchase. For people who cannot accept the performance as stated, I don't get that.


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## wyotex43n (Aug 1, 2020)

Loibisch said:


> Hmm, my best guess is that it is a bump protection for when you fold in the screen with the display pointed towards the back of the camera. Are those parts rubbery?
> 
> See the two little (probably rubbery) bumps to the very right of the display cutout? You can see similar bumps on the left side at the very ends of the half circle. It might be build as a half circle on this side to prevent pressure on the hinge.


Yes there are 4 bumps, 1 in each corner. But the semi circles looks to be just styling. Or Space for a radiator


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## Stu_bert (Aug 1, 2020)

Could I ask a favour from any of the early adopters. It’s fine to say no!

Can you take a test shot in conditions please where noise would be noticeable, then switch to a video mode which can make the camera overheat, let it overheat or get close to it, cool enough till you can shoot stills again and then repeat the stills shot?

The early view seems to be no issue shooting all day, which is good news, what I’d like to know (without the hype) is whether the heat buildup affects stills. And I assumed that taking shots in some level of low light where you expect noise might be the best way to notice it, but happy if others on the forum want to refine this to a better test case.

I think the more that we can get qualification on any impact to stills shooting from the heat would help make an informed decision for people who predominantly shoot stills. Not that we can get one right now, lol.

Thanks in advance.


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## derpderp (Aug 1, 2020)

got my R5 last night. absolutely enjoying it. The internal IBIS coupled with the unstabilized 28-70 F2 makes this a photographic beast. 

PS: Notice i didn't say anything about video. Cause the R5 is not a video camera first and foremost. Anything who thinks otherwise is delusional.


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## masterpix (Aug 1, 2020)

However, I think that the overheating issue is not an easy one to resolve. The electronics has its limitation and due to the fact that the want the body to be sealed from dust and humidity narrow the available solutions dramatically. Heat sinks are an issue with almost any electronic equiptment, especially those that operates in such speeds (your PC cpu is about 70-90 most of the time and it has a fan to cool it).


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## cornieleous (Aug 1, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> The heat is not unpredictable, but it's not simple either. You'd have to use differential equations to calculate heat distribution and dissipation. It may not be as simple as you described especially when you want to predict the actual temperature (not just claim it'll get hotter).



You make a fair point, the details are not simple, but to me the basic concepts are mostly. Electronic component heat follows a conduction path from hot to cold to a heat sink surface area, and then convection to ambient air.

Predicting a temperature is best done by software like Solidworks or Ansys. No one I know hates themselves enough to manually crank out differential equations on a complex system like a circuit board and its heat paths. 

My point, maybe badly expressed, was really that eventually a camera is going to get too hot with the sun burning down on it unless it has faster heat dumping ability than the source, and I find that impossible with these tiny bodies, so I stand by asserting any MILC will eventually get generically 'hotter' and eventually hotter is 'too hot'.


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## RunAndGun (Aug 1, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Bro - I just want to see some PITCHERS! GNAWHUTAHMSAYIN? PITCHERS NOW DAMMIT!
> 
> And I really appreciate the sentiment. I’m glad the bubbas are getting their toys and mine will be here one of these days.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Aug 1, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I set my R5 in direct sunlight today in 85 degree ambient air. I shot back to back in order: 30 mins of 4K60P, 30 mins of 1080P, 30 mins of 4K30P, then 8.5 more mins of 4K60P before it shut itself down. In direct sunlight, with warm ambient air. 30 mins of 4K60P IPB was nearly 50GB- is it really practical? Also, I could have shot 1080P or 4K30 for a LOT longer, as those cycles did little to heat up the camera. For a while, the R5 was barely warmer than my powered off Canon 5D4 which I also set in the sun during the test. I'm pretty sure the reports of shooting stills preventing one minute of video later are either from Phoenix where it was 118 degrees today, or the reports are carelessly lacking all the things that came before to heat up the camera.


Thanks for doing the tests, I am happy to hear that things are not as bad as they seem in your conditions. I do agree however with another poster here that shooting 1080p is "fluff". I mean either you need 4k delivery or you don't, I usually don't start throwing in FHD footage. If I want to record FHD I can use basically any camera that was released the past 5 years or longer.
I also would have liked to see how long the camera was available for 4K60 after the cooldown, but there is so many parameters and usage scenarios, that everyone needs to test for themselves and decide if the results are ok for them. But that's what's good about all of the media buzz around this. People _will_ test this camera to the core, as they should, and post their findings. And then everyone gets a clearer picture of the limitations. Wish my model was here so I could start doing tests as well instead of being stuck between Youtube and forum opinions. 

For example from what I've read an external monitor changes the game in two ways:
- It will allow unlimited recording up to 4K60
- It will cause the camera to heat up in idle video, because the camera cannot activate the overheat control
So that again is a completely different scenario and test. That will enable me to shoot 4K60 all day long, but drive the camera at the "00:00s" timer for the whole day, which means no more 4K120.
Should I expect a camera this size to be able to do that? I don't know. Should I have to think about how an external recorder enables some modes but completely prevents others? That's exhausting on a shooting day.



> There IS no hybrid camera that can do full frame high framerate and high resolution and stills all in one tiny MILC body.


Well you're absolutely right. However as a sidenote the R6 has a 20MP sensor end even overheats in 4K30...and that is just sub-par, even leaving out the unreleased A7S3. Even if you say the R5 is fine we gotta admit, that Canon regularly does seem to have some electronic design problems. I mean it's not the first time their processors are a bit underperforming (not being efficient enough for 4K x26* was the whole reason for the MJPEG codecs on past cameras). 

The following is not directed at you, but because some people like to put words in my mouth:
- I have never stated that the camera is useless
- I have never stated it absolutely must be recalled or redesigned
- some people even still claim that my point is I want "8k unlimited". I get it, reading this whole thread is hard.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Aug 1, 2020)

Putting this in another reply, because it is an original thought and not part of the back-and-forth.

Keeping in mind the following findings:
- Camera can record 4K30 limitless, regardless of temperature and will basically never overheat.
- Camera can do 4K60 unlimited if you offload video compression externally. It will claim "00:00s", but keep recording.
- And even though the two scenrarios above work "when overheated", the camera will refuse to even record a second of 4K120.
- The camera does retain heat very well.

I am assuming the following:
- It is not the sensor that is overheating as much as the more internal components. People have tried cooling down the R* with the lens off and an airblower and it still would not come down from it's "ovearheated" mode. If it was just the sensor I think we would see better results from cooling the camera with the lens off.
- Also it is likely not the sensor, because 4K60 externally works limitless. If it was the sensor overheating it shouldn't matter if we record internally or externally.

So my speculation is this:
It's actually a CPU problem combined with the insulation.

Think about your computer, or better your laptop. If the case gets too warm, the CPU clock speed starts to drop. Which means you can still use Word and your web browser, but playing a game at 60fps or encoding video in real time will no longer be possible. Your CPU clocks down to protect itself from overheating.

So what if the overheating warning is not just a plain "too hot" in the sense of "OMG 90°C", but a "too hot to reach the clock performance to encode this mode reliably". That would explain why 4K60 external still works limitless even though it should produce a lot of heat, because it does not require as much processing power.

It also makes sense because Canon has never had the most efficient chips when it came to video encoding. No one really knows what node they manufacture their Digic X in or how power efficient it is. People shouldn't really have to really, if everything "just worked".

So what would we learn from this:
Well, if it's a performance problem/heat limitation of the Digic X there is only three things you can do:
- Let the engineers work extra hours and come up with every little bit of power saving measure they can come up with, then implement that in firmware.
- Get some better cooling in there. From early pictures I've seen and the fact that the recording times are environmentally stable, it seems the Digic X is basically running without being heatsinked. If this is the case then even some minor form of heatsinking could do wonders here.
- Simply raise the Digic X temperature ceiling when which clock speed is allowed, leaving less safety margin. As we all know Canon likes to play it safe and reliable, maybe now they actually see how the chip performs on a large scale they can squeeze out a couple more percent.
Unrealistic: Complete recall and replace the Digic X with the Digic X rev. B. This is completely unrealistic from a manufacturing standpoint and would delay the camera at least half a year. Just listing this for completeness sake.

So tl;dr:
I think the chip is designed in the usual Canon fashion, i.e. being a bit underspecced for video, and power management/self preservation will cause it to throttle, leaving no performance to encode the higher end modes.
My guess is that if they had allowed 4K120 and 8K externally, we would have much longer recording times unless finally the sensor gives in.


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## Deleted member 378221 (Aug 1, 2020)

Another data point (skipped to conclusion):





Exact time of the video statement is 15:08
"[...] but when it comes to the overheating issues for video, even shooting photos, I mean I would take some pictures and then hand the camera to Levi and he might might only have 10 minutes of video recording left on that, just because I was taking pictures. [...]"

Again, not saying other measurements are invalid, but neither is this one. And yeah, you can claim that shooting in direct sun makes the problem worse and is not realistic for your use case. But it was only 27°C and how much heat/sun do you think acceptable before shooting pictures definitely takes away from video recording time?


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## SecureGSM (Aug 1, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?
> 
> If not, why not?
> 
> The 1Dx III should be *better* sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?



in an single word: IBIS, it makes heat mitigation task really challenging. you cannot have a solid heatsink attached to the rear of the sensor for the obvious reason.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 1, 2020)

mppix said:


> You are right - cold (or heat) not entering the body points to a faulty (or severely underdesigned) thermal interface. This is confirmed by testimonies that when the camera overheats, the body stays cold.
> 
> However, the "cooling adapter" is* certainly ridiculous*.



Keen to understand (genuinely) why you believe that such an adaptor would be *certainly ridiculous ?*


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## mppix (Aug 1, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Keen to understand (genuinely) why you believe that such an adaptor would be *certainly ridiculous ?*


Just some points come to mind:
- The patent shows an extender without lens elements -> for EF lenses only
- The heat is transmitted through the RF mount (with what seem to be heatpipes). To be effective the mount needs to heat up to nearly the temperature that it is cooling (say 60-80C). However, this happens also when native lenses are connected, that are constantly being heated up at least at the mount point. I'd be surprised if this tech is in the cameras but this can easily be verified by R5 owners (is the mount hot when the camera overheats?)
- The patent suggests variations of an air channel design with small fans. This is not a common thermal solution because it requires small high pressure fans (tend to spin fast and be loud). With unfiltered ambient air, such channels tend to jam and a filter worsens the pressure drop requirements.
- The lens mount (or any two solid surfaces) are never well connected thermally, i.e. there is always a remaining (micrometer) air layer between source and sink that acts as a thermal insulator. You would need to put thermal paste/grease on the lensmount when you attach the "heat-sink-extender" to get good cooling.

Overall, you get a much better (as in more compact) thermal solution by putting a fan in the body, e.g. blower style fan in the bottom plate. Such a solution can certainly be made weather sealed and removable/serviceable/cleanable.


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## 3.V Audio & Video (Aug 1, 2020)

mppix said:


> You are right - cold (or heat) not entering the body points to a faulty (or severely underdesigned) thermal interface. This is confirmed by testimonies that when the camera overheats, the body stays cold.
> 
> However, the "cooling adapter" is certainly ridiculous.



Never mind. I saw your answer reply to another user.

Which cooling adapter(s) are you referring to? Only about Canon's external fan adapter? Or also their design CR posted a week ago or so (not sure if it is a patent or just design idea for now).


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## Memdroid (Aug 1, 2020)

I have the R5 since thursday. Yesterday and today I have had 2 extensive photoshoots and shot about 5000 images per pop (about 4 hours each). *The R5 does not overheat during stills shooting! *It works just as any camera. Stop spreading these uninformed/misunderstood B.S.!


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## 3.V Audio & Video (Aug 1, 2020)

mppix said:


> Just some points come to mind:
> - The patent shows an extender without lens elements -> for EF lenses only
> - The heat is transmitted through the RF mount (with what seem to be heatpipes). To be effective the mount needs to heat up to nearly the temperature that it is cooling (say 60-80C). However, this happens also when native lenses are connected, that are constantly being heated up at least at the mount point. I'd be surprised if this tech is in the cameras but this can easily be verified by R5 owners (is the mount hot when the camera overheats?)
> - The patent suggests variations of an air channel design with small fans. This is not a common thermal solution because it requires small high pressure fans (tend to spin fast and be loud). With unfiltered ambient air, such channels tend to jam and a filter worsens the pressure drop requirements.
> ...



You seem to have some knowledge on heat dissipation. So let me ask you, what are your thoughts about this idea? (Please be gentle on me if you think the idea is ridiculous, heh heh  )

What about another hand grip option to dissipate the heat?

The camera design priorities seems to be weather sealing over heat dissipation. The battery cover is 1 part of the weather seal system. The cover needs to be removed to attach the 2 grips designed to be used wit the camera. Could Canon have made a way to transfer the heat out of the body through the battery compartment and into a grip? The grip could have small fan(s) or heat sinks that would let the air out in some sort of opening(s) in the grip. Those openings would come with different covers, for minor weather proofing (and medium heat transfer) , high weather proofing (less heat transfer) or just not use them at all to get the most heat out. The grip could have a disclosure sticker on it stating something like: "Use of this grip will reduce the weather sealing system dramatically".

This would give more versatility for uses to use video for various conditions, allowing for weather proofing or longer video recording times.


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## mppix (Aug 2, 2020)

3.V Audio & Video said:


> You seem to have some knowledge on heat dissipation. So let me ask you, what are your thoughts about this idea? (Please be gentle on me if you think the idea is ridiculous, heh heh  )
> 
> What about another hand grip option to dissipate the heat?
> 
> ...



Actually, I think it is pretty reasonable to think that Canon could have designed a battery grip that improves head dissipation. To me, this is technically much simpler and more effective that a "heat-sink mount adapter". I believe Fuji does this on the T3 (maybe also T4) to some degreee, where the full video specs are only accessible with grip. However, such a grip must be co-designed with the camera to actually achieve the desired effect (heat needs to be transferred through the bottom plate and battery compartment).

However, I would think that the R5/R6 can be passively cooled, but the needed technology was simply not economically viable or technically ready for mass-production at launch (it may for example require new body materials, manufacturing of new cooling systems at scale, ...).
An R5 has 7.2V×2.13Ah=15.3Wh battery. Let us assume that when the R5 consumes the most power (e.g. in the highest quality video recording mode), the battery lasts 1.5h-3h (guess on my part), then the R5/R6 generate 5W-10W internal heat. This is likely in the ballpark of the max power consumption (=internal heat generation) of an S1H, A7siii, and possibly also 1DXiii. For reference, this is roughly comparable with high-end mobile phones or tablets.

Unfortunately, I was not able to find an R5 or R6 "exploded view picture" that would reveal what the primary cooling mechanisms (heat conduction only, heat pipes, vapor chambers, ...) and where the primary cooling surfaces are (bottom plate, front, all similar). My best guess is that the R5/R6 have similar heat dissipation mechanisms than the 5D/6D with modest improvements (that result in cameras that need long times to cool down).
If this is true, the body is to some degree a thermal isolator such that external airflows, putting ice cubes on the camera, or any other thermal solution has only a mild effect on cooling the camera - the only upside is that the camera does not really heat up internally when exposed to direct sunlight. All these effects have been observed in one way or another.

Overall, we may have to accept that the R5, like the 5Div, is a fantastic stills camera (possibly the best) but the "workhorse" video features are limited to some use cases and cannot generally compete with the best in class (like S1H or A7siii).
My speculation would be the following: Canon product design/engineering likely build the R5 to compete with A7r and Z7; and R6 to compete with A7 and Z6.
However if true, the current price points are somewhat delusional high (edited) but that would also apply to many RF lenses.. so who knows.


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## dtaylor (Aug 2, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> When user expectations are unrealistic, I don't know what any company can do.



It is *not unrealistic* to expect to be able to shoot more than 20-30m of HQ video *in a day.* Competing camera bodies overheat but are usable again...really usable again, not usable for 1-3m...after short breaks. They also respond to external cooling with fans or ice packs. Heck, the X-T3 will will recover a good chunk of record time if you turn it off for two minutes and change the battery!

There is very clearly a thermal issue here, whether it's firmware (less likely) or hardware (more likely; they're likely not conducting heat away from DIGIC X or the body shell like they should). This is well below what competitors are offering. 



> People interpreted the marketing as they could shoot 4K60/120 and 8K all day in any environment.



That's a straw man. No one expected that. The record times Gerald Undone found in testing are perfectly respectable, but not the 2 hour minimum recovery times. Nor the near complete loss of HQ video modes just from shooting stills or looking through the EVF for an extended period.

And now we have a report of shutdown from shooting stills. Maybe this is a one off quirk, maybe he's trolling the forum. But maybe it's a sign of more bad news to come. It's not unreasonable to expect this as the next shoe to drop given the fact that stills shooting destroys HQ record times. Heat is building up even for stills.



> When people are posting hyped videos and getting paid to be talking heads and produce click bait- yes, their data points are sometimes less valid than a real customer.



When* Armando Ferreira* uses the R5 in a real production environment to recreate famous movie scenes and concludes that the R5 has thermal issues that severely limit its usefulness, *it has thermal issues. *He is not a click baiter and he has been more than fair to the EOS R and to Canon in general.



> Where is the outrage that the Sony also over heats in several reviews? I own a Sony camera, so I'm no brand elitist. I just want rationality and objectivity.



Are there any Sony bodies with recovery times of 2-6 hours?



> I also explained how ridiculous I think it is to expect a tiny mirrorless to ever be able to cool itself with high frame rate high resolution and IBIS combined, which you seem to agree with.



I did when I thought the drama was people expecting continuous footage. Looking at the reports it's clear people are shocked at the recovery times and at how merely turning the camera on eats into record times. These are supposed to be hybrid cameras. They're no good as hybrid cameras to wedding photographers who can't switch to video because they've been shooting stills (as but one example).

Contrast this with the competition: the X-T3 and X-T4 may be APS-C, but they've also been used for short, Hollywood-quality films without any severe thermal issues. (They will overheat but they also quickly recover.)


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## cornieleous (Aug 2, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> It is *not unrealistic* to expect to be able to shoot more than 20-30m of HQ video *in a day.* Competing camera bodies overheat but are usable again...really usable again, not usable for 1-3m...after short breaks. They also respond to external cooling with fans or ice packs. Heck, the X-T3 will will recover a good chunk of record time if you turn it off for two minutes and change the battery!
> 
> There is very clearly a thermal issue here, whether it's firmware (less likely) or hardware (more likely; they're likely not conducting heat away from DIGIC X or the body shell like they should). This is well below what competitors are offering.
> 
> ...



I own the camera, I'm not basing my opinions off of youtube.

I'm really tired of the blathering about the competition when none of the comparisons make sense, and many of the people are trying to make the R5 something it is not. This camera is not well below the competition in any way if you make an accurate and fair comparison. This is a mirrorless 5D5 with strong IBIS, EVF, weather sealing, and a high MP sensor, and short duty HQ video capability (making it a great hybrid camera) all in a tiny body. It is not a 12MP dedicated video camera with weaker IBIS and much less sensor to read out (a large thermal advantage and less capable hybrid). It is not a 1DX3 with an optical viewfinder and smaller MP sensor in a huge body that can dissipate heat easily. It is not a small APC or other type of sensor camera that produces little heat to readout. Compare apples to apples when it comes to data throughput, features and body size. If you are not going to be objective about overall capability when considering heat generation and ability to remove heat, don't bother. None of the comparisons mean much if those cameras are either less capable, generate less heat by having smaller sensors, or cool faster by having larger bodies- and in most comparisons all three. I don't see any bashing the new Sony for its 12MP stills, but I can tell you how much that will suck for most serious landscape photographers.

Instead of spending hours on the internet, and parroting what others said, I ran my own test for my needs. I saw no record times diminish just by idling the camera. I shot 4K60 for 30 minutes and kept the camera in direct sun for over 90 minutes. It shut down when I tried to run a second round of 4K60 8+ minutes in, exceeding what Canon said it would do and also exceeding what I will ever do with it. I cooled it for 20-25 minutes in normal house AC and had no warnings or limits upon restart. The point is, people are reacting to single data points, most from talking heads who make their living blathering about gear and we all know controversy pays. I am done with people quoting youtube. I'm done with people trying to use this as a cinema camera or sports camera or dedicated video camera and expecting perfect results. It's a hybrid, not a specialist. That is why I own a dedicated video camera: each tool has a purpose.


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## cornieleous (Aug 2, 2020)

mppix said:


> Actually, I think it is pretty reasonable to think that Canon could have designed a battery grip that improves head dissipation. To me, this is technically much simpler and more effective that a "heat-sink mount adapter". I believe Fuji does this on the T3 (maybe also T4) to some degreee, where the full video specs are only accessible with grip. However, such a grip must be co-designed with the camera to actually achieve the desired effect (heat needs to be transferred through the bottom plate and battery compartment).
> 
> However, I would think that the R5/R6 can be passively cooled, but the needed technology was simply not economically viable or technically ready for mass-production at launch (it may for example require new body materials, manufacturing of new cooling systems at scale, ...).
> An R5 has 7.2V×2.13Ah=15.3Wh battery. Let us assume that when the R5 consumes the most power (e.g. in the highest quality video recording mode), the battery lasts 1.5h-3h (guess on my part), then the R5/R6 generate 5W-10W internal heat. This is likely in the ballpark of the max power consumption (=internal heat generation) of an S1H, A7siii, and possibly also 1DXiii. For reference, this is roughly comparable with high-end mobile phones or tablets.
> ...




Not bad reasoning, with assumptions used. From what little has been said, Canon indicated the magnesium alloy of this body was perhaps modified to be more thermally conductive than previous, which is good since many magnesium alloys are not that thermally conductive. It feels that way in my hands so that specualtion seems reasonable to me that it is a new blend and the body is a heat sink. Even holding it for 5-10 minutes indoors powered off it warms slightly; the 5D4 does not, the 6D does not.

Why do you consider the price 'delusional'? That wording seems unreasonable. Consider that for many, the short duty HQ video will be useful in a way that does not overheat giving more capability than stills only, and most _should _be buying this as the mirrorless equivalent of what would be the 5D5. The 5D4 was $3500 at release in 2016. It had no IBIS and overall was much less capable. The 5D3 was similarly priced at release, and also matched pricing close to competitors. The A7R4 was $3500 at release. The competition that is actually comparable (stills centric hybrids) are all similarly priced at release. People keep making the wrong comparisons.

RF I also don't see how you would consider them overpriced or 'delusional' in their pricing. They are amazing optically and priced similarly to the competition, particularly if overall performance, build quality and weather sealing are considered. There might be a slight price premium there, but hardly what I would call 'delusional'.


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## mppix (Aug 2, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Not bad reasoning, with assumptions used. From what little has been said, Canon indicated the magnesium alloy of this body was perhaps modified to be more thermally conductive than previous, which is good since many magnesium alloys are not that thermally conductive. It feels that way in my hands so that specualtion seems reasonable to me that it is a new blend and the body is a heat sink. Even holding it for 5-10 minutes indoors powered off it warms slightly; the 5D4 does not, the 6D does not.
> 
> Why do you consider the price 'delusional'? That wording seems unreasonable. Consider that for many, the short duty HQ video will be useful in a way that does not overheat giving more capability than stills only, and most _should _be buying this as the mirrorless equivalent of what would be the 5D5. The 5D4 was $3500 at release in 2016. It had no IBIS and overall was much less capable. The 5D3 was similarly priced at release, and also matched pricing close to competitors. The A7R4 was $3500 at release. The competition that is actually comparable (stills centric hybrids) are all similarly priced at release. People keep making the wrong comparisons.
> 
> RF I also don't see how you would consider them overpriced or 'delusional' in their pricing. They are amazing optically and priced similarly to the competition, particularly if overall performance, build quality and weather sealing are considered. There might be a slight price premium there, but hardly what I would call 'delusional'.



"Delusional" is probably excessive in particular as we are discussing launch prices (edited in original post to "high"). My thinking was simply that "fully fledged video specs" would have kept the R5 price point permanently in the ballpark of the S1H, i.e. ~$4k. As is, it will have to drop to A7r and Z7 prices, i.e. ~$3k.
The lens comment comes from the workhorse lenses that I'd care to buy, e.g. the f2.8 trinity vs. their EF version. I understand that the RF lenses are better, there is an early adopter tax in tech, but as technology advances we should be getting better things at similar price points. Maybe in the future...

PS. by any chance did you notice if the lens mount gets warm/hot when the camera shows a temperature warning?


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## dtaylor (Aug 2, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I'm really tired of the blathering about the competition when none of the comparisons make sense,



I'm really tired of people mindlessly defending the situation because it's Canon or it's "their camera." When the first complaints hit it was fair to think "crazy YouTubers believing they had 24/7 8k." But the data available now shows there is a problem.

The thermal situation means wedding and event photographers basically have to treat the camera as a stills camera, or perhaps as an EOS R with FF line skipped readout instead of 1.7x cropped. Given the two reports of overheating while shooting stills (one here, one at FM) it may mean sports and outdoor photographers have to be careful or avoid the model altogether. (In fairness until this is replicated it may have been defective units. But the report here is detailed and from a known forum member. If the unit was not defective, if this is to be expected, then it is DOA for many sports/wildlife/outdoor photographers.) And cinema use is basically out. The R5 won't even be used for short captures during crash scenes (5D2 on the set of Fury Road) because nobody would setup a scene like that and take a risk that the camera would overheat before the crash.



> This camera is not well below the competition in any way if you make an accurate and fair comparison.



It is behind most (all?) competing 4k hybrids in terms of usable footage you can capture in a day due to excessive (2+ hour) cool down times. This is tragic given how capable the camera's sensor and video modes are.



> This is a mirrorless 5D5 with strong IBIS, EVF, weather sealing, and a high MP sensor, and short duty HQ video capability (making it a great hybrid camera) all in a tiny body.



No. Short duty HQ capture is out because you can't trust it. You can't trust that when you want to switch to 4k60 to grab a great clip of a wedding couple walking, dancing, or kissing...after a day of shooting stills...that it will have anything more than 0m record time. Or that it won't shutdown in the middle of the grab. This reduces it to a great stills camera but only an OK-to-mediocre hybrid camera based on how you feel about 4k30 line skipped video.



> It is not a 12MP dedicated video camera with weaker IBIS and much less sensor to read out (a large thermal advantage and less capable hybrid).



Stop thinking about the A7s3. This is not a simple matter of market misclassification. If there were no thermal issues it would be very clear to everyone that the A7s3 is a very cinema focused camera (like the S1H) and the R5 the ultimate hybrid camera. And absent these thermal issues, the R5 would be the *ultimate* hybrid. The camera to bring people back from Sony. Canon would not lose R5 sales to the A7s3. Heck, you would have people who would own both. But with these thermal issues they will lose sales to other MILCs in a shrinking market.

For that matter, absent these thermal issues the R5 would make inroads into cinema because some people absolutely would use the 8k mode.



> Compare apples to apples when it comes to data throughput, features and body size.



Other cameras, many with smaller bodies that are less of a heatsink, shed their heat and are ready to go with 5, 10, 15m breaks. Which means in normal use they can function without thermal issues for hours because you don't normally grab a continuous 30m 4k60 clip. You grab 2m here, 1m there, 5m here, with breaks in between, especially if you are at an event or wedding. But that doesn't work on these new R bodies because heat builds, even while shooting stills, and doesn't go any where.

Such a stumble for what, the lack of a copper heat pipe? Make the bodies a little bit thicker if needed to have the copper to conduct that heat away from the DIGIC X.



> If you are not going to be objective about overall capability when considering heat generation and ability to remove heat, don't bother.



Objectively speaking, Canon will lose sales over this, and will lose customers to other brands. It's not like this is the rumored 83-100mp R body. Canon could honestly release something like that with no video at all and be fine, as long as there's a 5-series R body that's reliable. The R5 is not reliable for video. The R6 is not reliable for video. What are event and wedding photographers supposed to do, stick with the R?



> The point is, people are reacting to single data points, most from talking heads who make their living blathering about gear and we all know controversy pays.



No, you have the single data point and you want to hand wave all the data points coming in from others. That's fine for you but terrible for Canon sales.


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## kimster (Aug 3, 2020)

I wonder how many people who have received their R5 are thinking of returning it OR selling on ebay? A poll would be interesting. I am seriously considering my many years of devotion to Canon. Hearing about problems with the USA website and then Canon Image cloud services only makes me more nervous about the future. It is inconceivable to me that the R5 will not now undergo a re-design or upgrade of some kind. Not because it really needs it for most people, but to try and stem the bad publicity. Rightly or wrongly, my joy of getting a new camera has dissipated already. I can't unsee articles, comments or videos.


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## drisley (Aug 3, 2020)

It's weird... up until a few weeks ago, everybody shot 1080p (at least all the big name Youtubers) because 4K was too big and difficult to edit. People just wanted full frame 4K on the Canon... and now they have it... normal 4K doesn't overheat on the R5 at all, and it's full frame and though not as sharp as HQ mode, it's still better than 4K on the EOS-R.

The new modes, like 4K60/120 and 8K overheat, as does the super HQ oversampled mode... these are things that didn't exist in full frame before for the most part except for the new (and expensive) 20 MP 1DX3. XT4 overheats in 4K 60 after 14 minutes and that's a small sensor. All of Sony's cameras to date overheat in 4K (Daniel Schiffer announced last week his A7III overheats in 4K30 after about 20 mins). Sony A7SIII was just announced and it has heat issues, but much better than anything before... and that wont be out for 2 months, and it's a crippled 12 MP camera.

I think people have been given an inch and are taking a mile here.

But with that said, many are not having heat issues in the real world (ie, not sitting the camera in the sun and letting it run nonstop to test it out, or filiming 8k on movie sets like Armando Ferrera). DSI PICTURES has a great Youtube channel, he filmed "all day long" in 8K raw and had no overheat issues- the overheat icon didn't even pop up once! And he wasn't shooting in the arctic, but rather in Australia, where daily temps are about 15-20c (normal room temps, or a nice day here in Canada).

Anybody who wants to shoot uninterupted 8K for hours, you will have problems. People who need to shoot 4K 120 for more than 30 mins nonstop, I think you may need to rethink how you shoot (that's 2 hours of super slomo).

I think 99% of the issue is the whole "Sony vs Canon" crap. The Sony people were really butthurt this year when the R5 was announced. I know at least a dozen who were ready to sell all their gear and get an R5 because "Sony was stagnant and letting us down".

Then the A7SIII was rumoured, and the Sony hype machine (ie, Youtubers like Gerald Undumb and 10000 Sony Ambassadors who only care about video and vlogging) set into action and the war rages on.

I would love to see a firmware to maybe double the heat limits (Sony does this in their cameras like the A7SIII, it increases the temp at which the camera shuts down but at risk of lockups or file corruption (Dan Watson had this happen to him on the A7SIII)). But I would more like to see that 30 min record limit removed (I thought after 2019 that wasn't necessary?), and even more than that I hope they follow thru with the promise to add 1080-120 (how did they not include that?!) and Clog3 in the next firmware.


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