# Need help with video lighting!!!



## dirtcastle (May 15, 2013)

What should I get?

I will be shooting a variety of indoor and outdoor. I want to have a variety of lighting options for different situations.

It would seem like I could save money with CF bulbs from Home Depot. But last time I went, I couldn't figure out what to buy. What brand and color temp of bulbs is good? I'm looking for good prices, over quality (unless it's worth it to spend a little more). 

What about modifiers? A friend of mine was telling me "china balls" are good modifiers. Where might I get something like that in Los Angeles?

I have a softbox... what's the best way to rig up a bulb in that?

What about spotlights or big fill lights?

Your help is greatly appreciated!!!

*EDIT:*

I have refined my question...

*If you were just starting out with video and needed an inexpensive lighting kit for indoor shooting... what would it be?*


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## sanj (May 15, 2013)

I am a working DOP and wish I could help. But your question is too loaded.


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## dirtcastle (May 15, 2013)

sanj said:


> I am a working DOP and wish I could help. But your question is too loaded.



Glad to hear you are a working DOP.

Maybe you could muster the energy to pick one of the sentences I wrote and give a half-assed response? ;-)


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## Drizzt321 (May 15, 2013)

First, are you being paid? If you are going to be shooting for paid stuff, roll the cost of renting any lighting that you need for that particular shoot. Even if this is a no/ultra-low budget short or teaser or reel you're trying to get off the ground, it'd be worth it to put the money you'd spend trying to cobble something together on renting some actual lighting, even if you only get 1 or 2 lights and use reflectors instead of having a whole bunch of smaller lights. 

If this is something you're going to use a lot for personal stuff and you can't afford to rent as many times as you'll need it, I'd say put whatever money you'd spend towards trying to get something together to buying a quality low-end light, even if it's just a single used kino-flow that you managed to scrape together the money for. Then buy some lighting modifiers (flags, reflectors, etc) which can help make up for only having the 1 light. 

If you're just wanting to get something that's better then nothing, get a cheapo 1 or 2 head fluorescent kit from Samy's or Calumet and know you're likely to be limited in some of what you're going to do.


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## dirtcastle (May 15, 2013)

I'd prefer not to rent. I'd rather buy and sell, if that's what it comes down to. I will be shooting without deadlines, all personal projects.

I would say my budget for purchase (or DIY) is around $300-400, but flexible if I find something incredible. Kino-flow kits look great. But I'd like to start with something less expensive and see what I can do with it.

I will look into those cheapo fluorescent kits. Thanks for the tip.

I'm also looking at building something like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NFzIP_TN75A


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## sanj (May 15, 2013)

I tried my best but could not figure out what to say.

What are you shooting and for what? On what format? 

What is the kind of end result you looking at?

How many crew members? Will you have someone who can hold reflectors, lights or you will have to fix all on stands yourself? 

How many lights do you want to use and what power supply do you have?


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## dirtcastle (May 15, 2013)

sanj said:


> I tried my best but could not figure out what to say.
> 
> What are you shooting and for what? On what format?
> 
> ...



Thanks!

It's just me. I will be shooting personal projects. No crew, low budget. I'm just starting out with video, but I have a lot of experience with stills. I will be shooting with a 5D3.

I plan to shoot random different stuff. For the end result, I will probably go for a variety of looks. Flexibility is good. I'd like to have some sort of 3-light setup:rim/spot, key, fill/ambient. Everything will be on stands. I will mostly be shooting in small rooms and tight spaces. Power supply for indoors will be AC wall power. For outside, I will assume a battery does the trick (I don't need to light up the Eiffel Tower .

I'm not necessarily looking for a magic/complete answer. I'm just looking for whatever advice you've got: which bulbs to use for what, where to go DIY, where not to skimp, etc.

My target budget is $300-400. I'm trying to keep my costs low so I can get a decent slider.


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## peederj (May 15, 2013)

Given your budget and needs I suggest the cheap Chinese LED panels that are battery powered. Get a couple of the $30 160 LED ones and one of the e.g. fotodiox 312A or 508A LED ones as a key light. Don't get the color changing ones, you will need the full power of all the LEDs at one temperature, and can use gels to change color just as well if not better. Along with some cheap stands and sandbags to place them.

They would be my very last choice to use if I had options but it sounds you have none and if I had to pack only one set for everything I suppose it would be them as I can use them anywhere.

For something that actually looks and works professionally, the cheapest you can do is a Lowel kit. The three Pro Light kit would be what I'd use if I had AC power and needed something small cheap and portable. But it will still set you back a lot more than you are willing to waste on junk.


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## AG (May 15, 2013)

I have to say i agree with Sanj. Your question is still very loaded. What you use to shoot with others may not.

Its one way to really cause arguments around here.

As for what to use, you can go the LED panels (120LED or more) from eBay for fairly cheap but you have to remember that they will be daylight balanced (usually) so you are either going to have to invest in some Gels to match room lighting or any other lighting that you have around you. They are usually plastic so they will be fragile and they will also use a lot of batteries and probably not last too long if used on full power.

There is then the other factors that need to be addressed, such as can you DIY any of your kit? Do you need portability/battery power. If you are going to use mains power are you allowing for safety backups in your budget (trip switches, locking power boards, quality RATED extension cables, circuit testers etc).

Like Sanj said loaded question.

If you are interested, have a look at some other links on the net such as FIlm Riot. The guys there started out as low budgeters and have evolved from there.

http://youtu.be/lJ5rZrNQBXo

http://youtu.be/w6QlrTXwdNE

Plus many many other similar links.


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## leGreve (May 15, 2013)

3-400 dollars for lighting? You wont even get 1 decent light for that... well, maybe a couple of used open face Arri or Mole lights.

With lights you still get what you pay for.

Tungsten lights like Arri, Mole etc. is top of the line. They have the best color spectrum around.

As soon as you move to Kino Flos and the like you start getting small spikes in the spectrum. Even HMIs are not perfect.

When you then move down to CFL, and if we head straight to the cheap ones, the color is visibly worse than any tungsten light and a camera set to 3200K.

LED is another ball park again, since even the decent brands like LitePanels don't render color good enough. The best LEDs I've seen is the Arri L7 which has a pretty nice color rendition.

In what I would consider the budget end, the K3200 LEDs would be the best bang for the buck.

In the tradional light end, you'll get better results buying a tungsten worklight and either bounce and control it or diffuse it that wasting your money on CFL / cheap LED lights.

The worlds best cinematographer Roger Deakins still uses good old tungsten lights bounced on muslin etc for his interior shots. That says a lot....


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## dirtcastle (May 15, 2013)

Good stuff! These are very helpful responses.

To make my question easier to answer, I have refined it...

*If you were just starting out with video and needed an inexpensive lighting kit for indoor shooting... what would it be?*

Thanks!


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## dirtcastle (May 15, 2013)

leGreve said:


> Tungsten lights like Arri, Mole etc. is top of the line. They have the best color spectrum around.
> 
> As soon as you move to Kino Flos and the like you start getting small spikes in the spectrum. Even HMIs are not perfect.
> 
> ...



This is a great breakdown. Much appreciated.


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## cayenne (May 15, 2013)

dirtcastle said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > I tried my best but could not figure out what to say.
> ...



Well, after a few shoots of my cooking show I'm doing (mostly to learn shooting and editing)...I've found a few things out.

1. Make sure all your lighting, practical (in place lighting) and your external lights are ALL the same temp. I replaced all the track lighting in my kitchen...and found at Lowe's / Home Depot...those particular lights were best priced at about 2700K. I then made sure to by my CFLs at the same 2700K color temp.

I bought cheap clamp lights, and some flash light stands...and use those as my external lights (key light, fill light...etc).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0055PKS98/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003Y2ILB6/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This seems to work quite well.

I also found on amazon.com, some pretty cheap 22" or so reflectors, that when you take off the covers...are nice white diffusers. I bought some clamps and I put these in front of my clamp worklights to soften the light in a DIY lightbox fashion.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003Y2GTG0/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I recently bought something from amazon, that is a kit that has 3 softboxes with 3x CFL sockets inside (I've not looked at the temp of the bulbs sent yet)...and a rack and a large green screen.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0054K9ZFM/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I've not had time to unpack and look into that yet....but I will incorporate that into my mix of goodies.

But anyway, that first thing....and this works wherever you film at indoors...if possible, switch out ALL practical light fixtures to bulbs of the same color temp as your external lights, that will save you a TON of grief in post processing.

Get lights same temp...just pick one....set your white balance to them and shoot....
I bought this to help with setting custom light balance, put it on the lens, shoot from the point of view of the talent to be filmed back at the lighting...and set custom WB to that:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002GFOSU/ref=oh_details_o00_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Hope that helps.

cayenne

ps. To see the problems with mixed lighting even after a TON of PP trying to grade it...my last video I did:

CWI: Chicken & Andouille Sausage Gumbo

I'm currently editing my latest one, using Marvels Cinestyle...and found that it was best if I exposed to meter, then set to underexpose by about 2 steps...this stuff looks great in post so far...and should be the best imaged video I've done to date...what I'm editing now as opposed to the link above, has all lights same color temp and it makes a *world *of difference.


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## dirtcastle (May 16, 2013)

After doing a ton of research (and raising my budget a little), here's what I think I'm going to get...






*Litepanels 1x1 LS Daylight Flood LED Panel*
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=880837&is=REG&A=details&Q=





*GiSTEQ Flashmate F-198C LED Video Light*
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/863687-REG/GiSTEQ_C8_03_F198C_01_Flashmate_F_198C_LED_Video.html

And when my funds replenish, I'll get this one for my third light...





*Genaray SpectroLED-14 Light (100-240VAC/12VDC)*
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/850293-REG/Genaray_SP_AD75_SpectroLED_14_Light_100_240VAC_12VDC_.html

I know this won't be the most powerful/sexy light kit. But whatever I lose in light quality... I should get back with other benefits: low temperature in my no-AC-having L.A. apartment, super easy to move and pack, and low power draw. The only thing I'm not sure about is color. But as long as the colors aren't noticeably bad, I'm okay with it.

I'm not looking for the ultimate/perfect lights. I just want something that gets me in the ballpark of good quality, and isn't a buzzkill to use. I feel like tungsten would be too much of a hassle for the type of shooting I'll be doing. The heat alone sounds awful. And for on-the-go, it would also be a pain in the ass. 

Any thoughts?


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## dirtcastle (May 16, 2013)

I just came across another possibility...

FV K4000 LED
http://www.fvlighting.com/store/lighting/led/k4000.html


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## cayenne (May 16, 2013)

dirtcastle said:


> I just came across another possibility...
> 
> FV K4000 LED
> http://www.fvlighting.com/store/lighting/led/k4000.html



Again, to save yourself some PP grief, make sure whatever lights you get, are the same color temperature, or at least be prepared to gel some of them to match the others. Also, when filming indoors, change out your practical lights to match your lights you buy. It makes life so much easier when trying to set white balance, and for color correction/grading in post.

Good luck...let us know what you end up with, and post some examples!!!


cayenne


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## Halfrack (May 16, 2013)

A better question can be asked of any camera rental shop that does lighting - what's your basic kit for video. AKA what do you send out of here when you don't want a customer to b**ch and moan about the equipment not working how they expected it to.

The kit most likely would be a set of Lowel TOTA lights. Key thing to know is that they don't dim, so you're switching bulbs if you want to go between 1kw, 500w, 350w. So toss in a set of CTO and CTB filters to get your color right from the start.

LED's are nice and battery friendly, but depending on the work you are doing, they can be the most expensive method to light something.



cayenne said:


> Also, when filming indoors, change out your practical lights to match your lights you buy. It makes life so much easier when trying to set white balance, and for color correction/grading in post.



Huge detail that most folks forget about. Adding daylight (5600k) to warm (3200k) will drive you nuts in post production. Gel any other light you can see or swap the bulb to the color you're working with.


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## thepancakeman (May 16, 2013)

Halfrack said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > Also, when filming indoors, change out your practical lights to match your lights you buy. It makes life so much easier when trying to set white balance, and for color correction/grading in post.
> ...



So if you're going to be shooting in daylight, what do you use for additional lighting? Thanks!


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## Halfrack (May 16, 2013)

thepancakeman said:


> Halfrack said:
> 
> 
> > cayenne said:
> ...



Keep in mind that 'daylight' can be two different things - color temp of a light in kelvin, or actually being outside during the day. And then there is the 'golden hour'.

If you use a warm like like a TOTA, you'd use a CTB gel to change it to daylight, unless you're using it as a key light and you want to warm up your subject (aka they're pale or from Oregon). Or use a light that's balanced to daylight (for example Arri HMI). CTO and CTB gel's allow you to color correct one temp to another.

Basically you don't want a mix of the bulbs below used in the same shot.


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## dirtcastle (May 17, 2013)

I went out to EVS (in Glendale) and looked at the *F&V K4000* LED panels. 






Nice lights, at a much better price than Litepanels. If you're looking for LED panels on a budget, it looks like these are the ones to get.

The 5600K monolight is a lot brighter than the bi-color one. And the color it gives off looked decent (plus it's easy to gel). But, compared to tungsten, I was underwhelmed with the brightness (although doubling up LED panels helps). When I considered this underwhelming brightness, combined with other shortcomings (price and color), disappointment quickly set in. It would feel weird to pay that much money for something that would be more about ease/convenience than versatility/color/brightness. 

It's actually the versatility part that is my main problem with the LED panels. For key/fill light, you lose most of the light when you try to diffuse it. As I see it, these aren't designed to be diffused. It's sort of an as-is light source.

So I'm back to considering tungsten again. And what I've learned is that, until we reach the space age, you can't get a bunch of light without also getting a little bit of heat (or wallet drainage). Oh well, it was worth a try.


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## peederj (May 17, 2013)

LED grids are also murder on the talent's eyes. Tungsten carries a lot of heat of course and 1K's can easily make people sweat. Plus you can easily overload a circuit breaker with Tungsten, which wastes most of its energy in the IR (heat) band, and the bulbs burn out fairly quickly so you need spares. 

There is no ideal video light but tungsten is definitely the best looking and easiest to grade in post. For lighting up a green screen use fluorescents, the green spike helps in that case.


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## thepancakeman (May 17, 2013)

Can anyone recommend a good book on the topic (video lighting)? Clearly there's a bit more of a learning curve that I anticipated.


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## cayenne (May 19, 2013)

thepancakeman said:


> Can anyone recommend a good book on the topic (video lighting)? Clearly there's a bit more of a learning curve that I anticipated.



Not sure about the book.

But one thing, as a noob I CAN speak of....if you can get the lights to match at same temp..DO THAT FIRST!!

I don't care what temp, indoors especially, but if you can get them all one temp, that will save you so much grief in post.

I speak from experience starting off......

HTH,

cayenne


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## iannicholson (May 27, 2013)

I reckon you cannot beat the basics...

800w Redheads
600w/300w Fresnels

Get a combination as per your budget. You can buy them pretty cheap from China on eBay. You get what you pay for though. I've used some of those Chinese redheads - just don't use the cheap globes they come with - they don't last long and melt over their connectors! Use high quality globes (GE/Osram/Philips) and you'll have few problems.

You will find yourself steadily building a collection of lights. I use all kinds of lights now - Par56s, LEDs, chinese balls, homemade scoops - you name it.

Funnily enough, for most of my short films I tend to fall back to a 800w Redhead, 300w Fresnel and a 300w PAR56 (as a kicker). I just like that light combo!

I hope that helps!


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## luciolepri (Jun 5, 2013)

dirtcastle said:


> Good stuff! These are very helpful responses.
> 
> To make my question easier to answer, I have refined it...
> 
> ...



I'd go for a Ianiro 3 lamps + 3m stands + bag set: http://www.ianiro.com/
The 3x800w cost 800 $ (that's the set I bought when I started) but the 3x500w set should cost around 500 $, so it should be in your price range. And there's always the "hand market"...
Tungsten light is the kind of artificial light I like most. Discharge lamps are very heavy and expensive, while led lights are not beautiful at all (to me) and the led frequency could cause some flickering trouble with some shutter speeds if you'r not using very good (and expensive) lamps.
I worked even with several cheap corean and chinese tungsten lamps, but their built and contacts quality was always terrible, I definitely wouldn't recommend them.
The downsides of tungsten lamps are 3:
1- They are much bigger than led lights.
2- They need much more power than led and discharge lamps to produce the same amount of light.
3- If you need to mix them with natural light (unless it's sunset light...) you'll need to convert them with a gel, which means that you have to buy a lot of blue gels and that, using blue conversion gels, you're gonna loose a lot of lighting power.


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## leGreve (Jun 9, 2013)

thepancakeman said:


> Can anyone recommend a good book on the topic (video lighting)? Clearly there's a bit more of a learning curve that I anticipated.



Read the bible.... "Set Lighting Technicians Handbook". Until you understand all types of light, you cannot sit down and talk about experience with one type of light, because you have NO reference.

LEDs were never meant to have punch. They are designed for headshot type videos where your crop is so tight that you can move the light in close. Most of the newer LED panel types these days carry the diffusion plates that will soften the light up and make it more pleasant to look at.

In regards to matching up lights... there is absolutely no rule about that. In regards to post, well... if you chose to mix lights in the first place, you probably have a reason and wont need to match them up in post.
I kinda like a 3400K/4000K indoor setting, light with 3200K lights and have the daylight do color contrast in the background.

Each light serves a diferent purpose.

Oh and gelling... gelling LEDs is a lot different from gelling tungsten, flour or HMIs. The color spectrum is still not perfect and gelling could create problems with the already present spikes in the spectrum.

But I would just test the lights rigth away, make sure they match up. If not, then return the crap and get a new set.

Regarding power.... yeah, proper batteries for LEDs are expensive. They will, including charger, set you back as much as the K4000 ligths. But only needed if you are doing shoots where you can't draw power.


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## dirtcastle (Jun 9, 2013)

leGreve said:


> Read the bible.... "Set Lighting Technicians Handbook". Until you understand all types of light, you cannot sit down and talk about experience with one type of light, because you have NO reference.



Thanks for the heads-up on this book. I just grabbed it.

After considering tungsten, then LED, and then back to tungsten... I finally decided to go with some fluorescents. 

The primary factor was cost: fluorescent is cheap. 

The second factor was brightness: fluorescent can definitely pack some punch. 

The third factor was heat: my apartment already gets hot as it is (no AC).

The trick with fluorescent is to get the right bulbs and to be ready to do some color correction in post. I am the first to admit that most fluorescent bulbs give off crap light (often accompanied by a flicker and/or green/blue/purple spikes). I had to ditch some bulbs because they flickered and had a purple spike. But I've been doing my homework and I've already found one bulb that I'm reasonably happy with (Eiko 105w); and more are on the way (Alzo). My only major complaint is how hard it is to find 5000k bulbs (my preferred color temp) with a CRI over 90. It seems like their are a lot more options at 5500k and 5600k.

Another bonus about fluorescents is their power draw. It feels good to be efficient and I'm actually using some of these bulbs for everyday house lighting (I prefer white light over yellow).

Having said all that, when my budget permits I will definitely be ordering some tungsten lamps to get better quality light. But for now I'm still learning and I'd like to see how far I can go with fluorescent.


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## cookinghusband (Jul 1, 2013)

dirtcastle said:


> After doing a ton of research (and raising my budget a little), here's what I think I'm going to get...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There are china made non-branded ones that cost USD100-200. go and search around. Also some 30W-50W LED garden flood light are quite affordable. approx 70 USD?

Take a look at the ECO wash photo on page 34 of this http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/sustainability/2012rpt/files/sustainabilityreport2012.pdf

I went to bought 4 of these to light up the lower part of that photo.


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