# Functionality being added to the Canon EOS R soon after release with firmware update



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 9, 2018)

> It may have been lost during the announcement excitement, but Canon will be adding some functionality to the Canon EOS R camera with a firmware update. Expect to see the firmware update released within a couple of months after shipping begins in October.
> *What’s coming in the firmware?*
> 
> Eye detect AF in continuous shooting. The EOS R launches with the ability to do this in one shot.
> ...



Continue reading...


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## BeenThere (Sep 9, 2018)

Looks like they were anxious to get this camera into the market, even before all the software was finished. Knowing what else is coming soon may help with a buy decision.


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## ThomasK (Sep 9, 2018)

Looks more like they will open the crippled firmware a bit because the specs of the camera body are at the south end...


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## PGSanta (Sep 9, 2018)

^^^ Ding ding ding.


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## RayValdez360 (Sep 9, 2018)

ThomasK said:


> Looks more like they will open the crippled firmware a bit because the specs of the camera body are at the south end...


 doubt that is the reason. The software seems imcomplete atm. all these fixes are fixes.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 9, 2018)

Nice! EyeAF in continuous focus. Another Sony's advantage gone. One feature I really wanted


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## ThomasK (Sep 9, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> doubt that is the reason. The software seems imcomplete atm. all these fixes are fixes.


So it's a beta series for consumer testing? Better wait for extensive test results - and curious what will be offered from Panasonic.


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## mclaren777 (Sep 9, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> Looks like they were anxious to get this camera into the market, even before all the software was finished. Knowing what else is coming soon may help with a buy decision.


You're close.

The real reason was mass production. Unlike Nikon, which will struggle to fulfill orders for its Z-series cameras, especially at only 20k/month, Canon built a huge backlog of EOS Rs so it could meet demand.

That meant the firmware team had plenty of time to write new code while crates of cameras were stockpiled in warehouses.


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## razorzec (Sep 9, 2018)

> A “few tweaks” to video functionality. The 4K crop will not be changed, nor will the maximum frame rate in 4K.



Pupil/Eye AF on video recording? I think it would only make sense to have it enabled in video as well


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## AlanF (Sep 9, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> Nice! EyeAF in continuous focus. Another Sony's advantage gone. One feature I really wanted



AF is where the battle lines are drawn. Sony has done tremendous stuff with AF and it's to our advantage as Canon will have to compete.


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## Sharlin (Sep 9, 2018)

ThomasK said:


> Looks more like they will open the crippled firmware a bit because the specs of the camera body are at the south end...



That makes exactly zero sense if you know anything about engineering OR business. This is why it’s difficult to take seriously people crying about Canon crippling things.


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## EduPortas (Sep 9, 2018)

Anyone know if you can MAGNIFY focus _*during*_ video recording with the EOS R?

Apparently you can now do this with the XT-3, according to EOSHD. This is huge for video makers.


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## nitram (Sep 9, 2018)

I wonder whether one of the additional video features might be to move ‘where’ the crop box is located. If one were to move this before or even during shooting, this would be interesting for creating smooth pans without additional hardware.


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## dak723 (Sep 9, 2018)

ThomasK said:


> Looks more like they will open the crippled firmware a bit because the specs of the camera body are at the south end...



No offence, but what a bunch of BS. Just another troll that can't think of anything more original to say than "crippled". If you don't lke the specs go buy your Sony. I think it is rather obvious that they did not want to wait any longer with the release of the camera with Nikon announcing their FF mirrorless. So, yes, it may not have been quite ready. Nothing crippled at all about this camera. It may not have all the features you want, but that is YOUR problem, not Canon's.


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## traveller (Sep 9, 2018)

ThomasK said:


> So it's a beta series for consumer testing? Better wait for extensive test results - and curious what will be offered from Panasonic.


Funny how when Fujifilm do this, the internet says it shows how they are “listening to their customers” and striving to “continuously improve their products”. When Canon do it they are “beta testing on paying customers” and “deliberately crippling their products”, then “changing their minds” after a customer backlash...


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## nitram (Sep 9, 2018)

Yup, I agree. This may also be because a Canon shooters are a bit of a different demographic than those of Fuji. But I have to say, only good can come from following Fuji’s example of continually adding functionality and improving the software for their cameras. iPhones receive updates every year. Sometimes they are big feature additions that better leverage the hardware you already purchased while at other times, the new firmware allows for better energy management or the battery. Why shouldn’t Canon be held to the same standard - if the existing hardware can be leveraged in a more effective manner via new software, do that! This helps keep asking prices higher, too. A win win situation.


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## amorse (Sep 9, 2018)

This seems like an odd move from Canon to me. How quickly has Canon offered firmware updates following a release previously? This seems more rushing a product to market than crippling - Canon must have been building these cameras for a while to be ready to ship next month, so they must be manufactured with an earlier firmware. I really doubt Canon could see people complain about a few issues and then decide to change gears in less than a week and have firmware released very quickly after - that sort of work takes time.

I am wondering if the rumours of 2 FF mirrorless cameras were true and the second one is being held because they don't want reviews of it with unfinished firmware. I have heard exactly 0 reviewers mention that the firmware updates are coming quickly following launch, so impressions are already being released, some of which targeting issues this firmware update will resolve. 

My only point here is that this seems out of character for Canon - typically everything is intended to work 100% out of the box, and this is a step away from that. Unsure what that means in the grander scheme of things.


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 9, 2018)

What is sad for me is the significant drop of the FPS with AF. The initial 8 FPS would have been great but 3 with AF priority is slow. 
Canon is probably having problems with the readout speed of the sensor or processing all that information for fast enough AF.


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## sdz (Sep 9, 2018)

I recall reading about a near-future firmware update shipping soon after the EOS R shipped. The likely explanation for this 'unusual' behavior is the firmware was not ready when the cameras entered production. It's likely an exception that proves the norm.

It would be great if Canon were to follow Fuji's lead by adding or improving functionality after a product ships. But that is rare for Canon.


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## bks54 (Sep 9, 2018)

mclaren777 said:


> You're close.
> 
> The real reason was mass production. Unlike Nikon, which will struggle to fulfill orders for its Z-series cameras, especially at only 20k/month, Canon built a huge backlog of EOS Rs so it could meet demand.
> 
> That meant the firmware team had plenty of time to write new code while crates of cameras were stockpiled in warehouses.



Exactly. Just like when you buy a new computer model off the shelf, there is often already a software update needed because time has elapsed since it shipped, and software has advanced. Canon had the hardware ready to ship in volume and was continuing to work on the firmware including some new features that weren’t quite fully baked. No need to hold up on delivering the hardware.


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## CanoKnight (Sep 9, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> Looks like they were anxious to get this camera into the market, even before all the software was finished. Knowing what else is coming soon may help with a buy decision.



The camera is nothing but a repackaged 5d4 at a lower price point. The 5d4's aren't selling so maybe putting the sensor in a smaller cheaper enclosure will. Video is still a joke , though Canon have relented on the codec.


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## snappy604 (Sep 9, 2018)

dak723 said:


> No offence, but what a bunch of BS. Just another troll that can't think of anything more original to say than "crippled". If you don't lke the specs go buy your Sony. I think it is rather obvious that they did not want to wait any longer with the release of the camera with Nikon announcing their FF mirrorless. So, yes, it may not have been quite ready. Nothing crippled at all about this camera. It may not have all the features you want, but that is YOUR problem, not Canon's.




Yet a bunch of people without direct code access have made many missing features work on lower end canons.. the magic lantern crew are amazing at reverse engineering things left out.

<edit> was addressing canon purposefully crippling features.. they have a history of it.. something as trivial as an intervalometer was missing for years.. its a useful feature, easyish to code, but they insist on selling expensive hardware to deal with it. Not sure if they will here, but noticed it has a socket for one and in the existing code it seems to be missing (yet avail on 80D!).. I'm still interested, but waiting for updated code and reviews before either plopping the funds or not. Its... close, but is it close enough? for what I will put my money towards.


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## miketcool (Sep 9, 2018)

Not sure why this is news as every electronic manufacturer does this. My Ronin-S is a month away from another firmware update that will add on additional cameras. Canon bodies regularly get updates that change and add features. 

In software development you release the most stable version of firmware at launch while beta testing the next version. If real world usage data comes back positive and your beta testers are satisfied, you release the update.


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## Act444 (Sep 9, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Wow. Looks more and more like they rushed to market what was essentially an unfinished camera in order to upstage Nikon and their Z series...which may have caught them a bit off guard(?)

Hopefully there are no additional "fatal flaws" which could be uncovered by first-adopters...

That said, I wonder if this indicates that the replacement cycle for this camera may be longer than a year or two - sounds like they could keep adding features, at least as much as the processor can handle. (Note that I'm talking about replacement of the R, not the addition of additional RF-mount bodies above or below it in the market)


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## Kit. (Sep 9, 2018)

ThomasK said:


> So it's a beta series for consumer testing?


Well, "alpha" was already taken...

5D2 also had glaring bugs (black dots) and obviously missing functionality (video exposure control) fixed in firmware updates.


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## Mikehit (Sep 9, 2018)

EduPortas said:


> Anyone know if you can MAGNIFY focus _*during*_ video recording with the EOS R?
> 
> Apparently you can now do this with the XT-3, according to EOSHD. This is huge for video makers.



Is it? So huge only Fuji have cottoned on?


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## cellomaster27 (Sep 9, 2018)

This is more exciting for me because this points to a higher model (1DX or 5DS/R version of the EOS R) coming not too long after this release. That camera should be priced in the upper 3-4k. I mean look at the lenses that are coming out for the RF mount. They definitely definitely won't be stopping here. Did they hold back on this model? Yes, I think so but it's really not a bad camera at all. In fact, even just on specs sheet, it holds its own + you have an amazing set of lenses. I won't even talk about the software/functionality of the Sonys... yes, given time, I could probably get used to it. Sony lenses are expensive and limited. The 24-70mm f2.8 gm is $2200 - and it doesn't have any sort of image stabilization. Canon's EF 24-70mm 2.8 is going for ~1600 currently. Sony's 70-200mm f2.8 gm oss is ~2600, about 500-600 over the brand new canon 70-200mm III. They have no native 50mm f1.2 or a 28-70 f2. Canon is offering fast/no compromise lens mount adapters. Plus I'm curious as to how useful the custom function on the RF lenses will be used in real-life scenarios. This is going to be fun.


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## snappy604 (Sep 9, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Is it? So huge only Fuji have cottoned on?



obviously not for you, but it is for people who do video. I can imagine a use-case scenario where you want to see the overall layout, but are manually focusing and want to ensure you're focused. I seem to recall Magic Lantern code could do this feature.. unfortunately because they're reverse engineering with next to no info it takes a long time to get each new camera supported. 

I find it funny how many features people are wanting are knocked down as being 'niche'.. yet digital cameras as a whole were niche and people wondered why anyone would want them 25yrs ago (I used to take a lot of images on an old epson with a floppy in it), then later with first SLRs etc. People thought digital itself was 'niche' and why any company would do it.. yet here we are. Same with many new features like live view (composing, digital zom for low light etc).. tilty screens (I had so many people bug me why I wanted it, when my canon G6 allowed me to do new things with it). They were all saying it breaks easy blah blah.. yet here we are. New tools open new opportunities. Some don't want/need, some use it badly... some find really good useful things to do with them.


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## JohanCruyff (Sep 9, 2018)

Bravo Canon!


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## Talys (Sep 9, 2018)

ThomasK said:


> So it's a beta series for consumer testing? Better wait for extensive test results - and curious what will be offered from Panasonic.



That's the entire Sony A7 series, including beta 1, beta 2 and beta 3 

Firmware patches that add actual features _before launch _is pretty cool. Here's to dreaming that Canon will actually have firmware patches that add features _after _launch, too!


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## Kit. (Sep 9, 2018)

snappy604 said:


> obviously not for you, but it is for people who do video. I can imagine a use-case scenario where you want to see the overall layout, but are manually focusing and want to ensure you're focused.


You will probably want to use an external monitor for it anyway.


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## admiralburns (Sep 9, 2018)

Does the video crop apply ONLY to 4K, or does it apply to 1080 also?


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## AlanF (Sep 9, 2018)

Talys said:


> That's the entire Sony A7 series, including beta 1, beta 2 and beta 3
> 
> Firmware patches that add actual features _before launch _is pretty cool. Here's to dreaming that Canon will actually have firmware patches that add features _after _launch, too!


It’s true. As each new Sony generation appears, it is described as being what the previous model should have been. But, Sony has now got a lot right, paid for by the adopters of previous models who have low value used early versions on their hands. I much prefer the Canon/Olympus approach of trying to get it fight first and then sticking with models until significant enhancements are made.


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## freejay (Sep 9, 2018)

I think it is a good thing that Canon is finally starting to add features via firmware release. Yes, there were some very rare additions of functionality in the past but mostly only (mostly minor) bugfixes were made. This way we can hope to get even more features in the future. They just had to agree on a certain set of features for the release. Otherwise they'd have to postpone the release almost indefinitely.


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## mclaren777 (Sep 9, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> Does the video crop apply ONLY to 4K, or does it apply to 1080 also?


It only happens at 4K resolution.

I actually don't mind the crop on my 5D4. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Canedo (Sep 9, 2018)

If firmware update includes 1080p @120fps, I will buy it....i forget we are talking about canon, keep dreaming


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## freejay (Sep 9, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> Does the video crop apply ONLY to 4K, or does it apply to 1080 also?


There's cropping in 1080 if you use an APSC lens (EF-S). But that is actually a good (and necessary) thing.


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## Mikehit (Sep 9, 2018)

snappy604 said:


> obviously not for you, but it is for people who do video. I can imagine a use-case scenario where you want to see the overall layout, but are manually focusing and want to ensure you're focused. I seem to recall Magic Lantern code could do this feature.. unfortunately because they're reverse engineering with next to no info it takes a long time to get each new camera supported.



I did not say video users would not find it useful, nor did I say I could not see the use of it (it is present in Oly and Pana stills functionality for MF and I have used it) - I asked if it was 'huge' because that to me suggest many people clamouring for it and Canon, Nikon and Sony all missing the point.


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## bhf3737 (Sep 9, 2018)

snappy604 said:


> obviously not for you, but it is for people who do video. I can imagine a use-case scenario where you want to see the overall layout, but are manually focusing and want to ensure you're focused.
> ...


Why magnification is needed? Well for people who actually do video, I can imagine it is needed when there is low contrast at the point of interest. True. This is where AF may oscillate and many cameras, any brand you name it, will struggle, so no other choice than switching to manual and enlarge the scene to see perhaps via an external monitor. Is this a problem with R or any DPAF enabled camera? No, use DPAF, specially with its improved AF ability in low light, it can snap to the focus point and then switch to manual, if you need it to stay that way. Do you still need magnification?


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## snappy604 (Sep 9, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> Why magnification is needed? Well for people who actually do video, I can imagine it is needed when there is low contrast at the point of interest. True. This is where AF may oscillate and many cameras, any brand you name it, will struggle, so no other choice than switching to manual and enlarge the scene to see perhaps via an external monitor. Is this a problem with R (or any DPAF enabled camera? No, use DPAF, specially with its improved AF ability in low light, it can snap to the focus point and then switch to manual, if you need it to stay that way. Do you still need magnification?



I am not a heavy video user (just from time to time for friends) so I won't have the professional angle on it, but external monitor may not always be possible. Also I believe the original mentioned maybe through the OVF? I know there are some places I've been asked to video that it was dark and very quiet.. I thankfully had an addon which covered live view, but even then had to use tape to cover the blinky red light.. it was disruptive! (an experimental dance troupe).. I wish I'd been able to focus better, but it wasn't an option due to the disruptive nature. its probably not for all cases, but I can see a use 

<edit> also forgot filming some jazz stuff.. dark, and you want fussy... people in jazz bars are about the experience and will let you know if you're disrupting them.


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## admiralburns (Sep 9, 2018)

mclaren777 said:


> It only happens at 4K resolution.
> 
> I actually don't mind the crop on my 5D4. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Got it, thanks. For me, 4k is fun and great for some purposes but I usually prefer 1080 / 60 or 120 because of the smaller file size and because in lower light (indoors, natural), there is less real advantage IMO to 4k. I was pretty surprised to hear about the 4k crop and lack of 1080 / 120. I understand that it doesn't bother you, but It seems insane to me that one would not want THE OPTION to utilize the entire FF sensor they just shelled out for. That said, I can get by on 1080 / 60 with no crop. I'm interested in the 35 1.8 macro (pending reviews and analysis) if I proceed with this camera, so that will do fine without crop for my purposes (mostly video of family). If it is much like the 35mm F2 USM, I'll probably buy it.


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## mclaren777 (Sep 9, 2018)

I just wish I could record 2.7K footage on these Canon cameras.

Or that I could select proper UHD resolution instead of DCI.


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## The Fat Fish (Sep 9, 2018)

Come on, just remove the crop. We have hit the point where even Nikon are ahead of Canon in video and that's worrying. Swallow your pride Canon and make a disappointing release better.


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## cpreston (Sep 9, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> Why magnification is needed? Well for people who actually do video, I can imagine it is needed when there is low contrast at the point of interest. True. This is where AF may oscillate and many cameras, any brand you name it, will struggle, so no other choice than switching to manual and enlarge the scene to see perhaps via an external monitor. Is this a problem with R or any DPAF enabled camera? No, use DPAF, specially with its improved AF ability in low light, it can snap to the focus point and then switch to manual, if you need it to stay that way. Do you still need magnification?



From a pure usability standpoint, I've stopped using magnification now that the DPAF manual focus guides are available. Letting the guides tell you whether your focus point is in front of or behind the focal plane is a lot easier than trying judge contrast by punching in on a certain point while filming.


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## cpreston (Sep 9, 2018)

mclaren777 said:


> I just wish I could record 2.7K footage on these Canon cameras.
> 
> Or that I could select proper UHD resolution instead of DCI.


The EOS R is UHD.


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## admiralburns (Sep 9, 2018)

As a side note, I was just looking at a comparison on camera size.com between my current "EDC" setup (6D w/ 40mm 2.8 pancake) vs the Sony A7RIII with Sony 35mm 2.8 and the EOS R with 35mm 1.8, and others, link below.

http://j.mp/2O04rbS

Wow...it's making me really wish for a 35 or 40mm pancake 2.8 RF lens! The EOS R is quite "deep" with the 35mm 1.8 on it...even more so than the 6D with the 50mm 1.8. It positively dwarfs the Sony. Arguably, a more fair comparison would be with the 35mm F2...which I just did...and they are basically the same size "front to back". 

Just goes to show, mirrorless CAN be significanlty smaller, but this is certainly not always the case.


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## crazyrunner33 (Sep 10, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> Does the video crop apply ONLY to 4K, or does it apply to 1080 also?



Only in 4k, it's a heat related issue, at least according to Canon. I'm sure it's a sensor readout speed issue.


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> What is sad for me is the significant drop of the FPS with AF. The initial 8 FPS would have been great but 3 with AF priority is slow.
> Canon is probably having problems with the readout speed of the sensor or processing all that information for fast enough AF.



Blackcoffee17, I think you hit the nail on the head. The big news in Canon Land is that its limiting factor is now officially sensor readout speed. And, my, what a limitation it is. My personal use case would drag it down to 3 frames per second, making my SL1 look zippy. The fact that it is coupled with factors such as focus priority and servo focusing seems to indicate that it is also competing for limited processing resources on the same chip (onto which Canon is loading all sorts of new computational tasks with new, nifty features). We may see them divvy up the chipset into some purpose-specific ASICs, which would hopefully sort the problem, but that's not as quick a fix as it sounds, as it likely involves changing the architecture.

Upshot: R looks promising; not usable for an action shooter; will be if Canon can offload readout to a fast enough chip, but maybe not as soon as we hope.

Do remember that Sony introduced a bunch of readout-speeding changes when it launched the A9, giving it the capacity to suck down about 500mb per second in readout. This isn't easy stuff. It's highly invasive to sensor design, so it's not like you can just add on a chip and call it good. If Canon wanted to have 10 fps with the 5D4 sensor in their new R mirrorless, they'd have had to introduce sensor changes *because* of the readout, and this product management decision would have taken place more than a year ago. That may well have happened after the A9 came out. If so, it would be consistent with a 5d4 sensor appearing first with lame FPS and Canon just being late as normal with the newer version of the sensor. That's my hope. Would mean we might expect something competitive sooner than later.


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## Bennymiata (Sep 10, 2018)

To me, this new R is not meant to be a 1dx or 5d4 replacement, but more aimed at owners of 6d's.
The camera has some great features and I can still use my EF lenses now with additional functions like a control ring or drop in filters.
The new lenses they've released look very tasty too.
4k crop? Not a big deal for me. Just mount an ef-s lens on it and the crop goes away (you can't do that with a 5d4).
Few people have a computer that can handle 500mb/sec videos anyway, so for most people good HD is more than adequate.
My customers all want their videos delived on a DVD anyway.
To me, I'd rather have a cropped but still good 4k, than have a camera stop mid video because of overheating (I've seen this happen on Sonys a few times).
I love touch drag focussing on my M5. Much easier to use than a joystick.
I reckon the R will be a fun camera to use, and it will sell in the squillions!
The fact that Canon will be adding features via firmware updates is also a good thing.

I can't wait for the more upmarket version to come out.


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## admiralburns (Sep 10, 2018)

Personally, I love the idea of them upgrading the camera via firmware upgrades, not just for bug fixes. I've owned two Fuji's and they stayed "current" longer due to multiple upgrades that added additional, meaningful features. I can tell you that it is one of many things that has created great loyalty among Fuji owners, they feel that the manufacturer is "on their side" as opposed to trying to squeeze every last cent and holding back features.


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## KrisK (Sep 10, 2018)

mclaren777 said:


> It only happens at 4K resolution.
> 
> I actually don't mind the crop on my 5D4. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Yeah. I'm more concerned with how rolling shutter and video AF compares with the Z6. I'm assuming DPAF will still hold a significant advantage over the Nikon, but who's to say without tests.


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## RayValdez360 (Sep 10, 2018)

ThomasK said:


> So it's a beta series for consumer testing? Better wait for extensive test results - and curious what will be offered from Panasonic.


the camera isnt released yet. i am guessing they rushed the software for it to put it into the hands of photographers to build hype before it can be bought. i dont know if other cameras were like this right before the release date.


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## AlanF (Sep 10, 2018)

Bennymiata said:


> To me, this new R is not meant to be a 1dx or 5d4 replacement, but more aimed at owners of 6d's.
> The camera has some great features and I can still use my EF lenses now with additional functions like a control ring or drop in filters.
> The new lenses they've released look very tasty too.
> 4k crop? Not a big deal for me. Just mount an ef-s lens on it and the crop goes away (you can't do that with a 5d4).
> ...





[email protected] said:


> Blackcoffee17, I think you hit the nail on the head. The big news in Canon Land is that its limiting factor is now officially sensor readout speed. And, my, what a limitation it is. My personal use case would drag it down to 3 frames per second, making my SL1 look zippy. The fact that it is coupled with factors such as focus priority and servo focusing seems to indicate that it is also competing for limited processing resources on the same chip (onto which Canon is loading all sorts of new computational tasks with new, nifty features). We may see them divvy up the chipset into some purpose-specific ASICs, which would hopefully sort the problem, but that's not as quick a fix as it sounds, as it likely involves changing the architecture.
> 
> Upshot: R looks promising; not usable for an action shooter; will be if Canon can offload readout to a fast enough chip, but maybe not as soon as we hope.
> 
> Do remember that Sony introduced a bunch of readout-speeding changes when it launched the A9, giving it the capacity to suck down about 500mb per second in readout. This isn't easy stuff. It's highly invasive to sensor design, so it's not like you can just add on a chip and call it good. If Canon wanted to have 10 fps with the 5D4 sensor in their new R mirrorless, they'd have had to introduce sensor changes *because* of the readout, and this product management decision would have taken place more than a year ago. That may well have happened after the A9 came out. If so, it would be consistent with a 5d4 sensor appearing first with lame FPS and Canon jst being late as normal with the newer version of the sensor. That's my hope. Would mean we might expect something competitive sooner than later.



That's interesting information about readout speed and what I have been trying to find out about. I am playing with a Sony RX10 IV that has the Sony A9 AF system and fast data transfer with 24 fps for intelligent tracking. I hope Canon can incorporate fast intelligent AF tracking soon as it is really useful not only for tracking but also for locking on to objects against a background and also allowing you to keep focussing on say a head and recomposing while retaining focus.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 10, 2018)

traveller said:


> Funny how when Fujifilm do this, the internet says it shows how they are “listening to their customers” and striving to “continuously improve their products”. When Canon do it they are “beta testing on paying customers” and “deliberately crippling their products”, then “changing their minds” after a customer backlash...


Sigh internet trolls and fan boys are so annoying sometime just like politics. They spin it to fit their narrative. 

Fully articulate LCD, touch screen, 10 bit video, 28-70 F2 but they always complain about the crop. 

There is alot of things Canon did it right for their non profesional FF mirrorless and wrongs yet people only concentrate on the negatives. Just wait...



amorse said:


> This seems like an odd move from Canon to me. How quickly has Canon offered firmware updates following a release previously? This seems more rushing a product to market than crippling - Canon must have been building these cameras for a while to be ready to ship next month, so they must be manufactured with an earlier firmware. I really doubt Canon could see people complain about a few issues and then decide to change gears in less than a week and have firmware released very quickly after - that sort of work takes time.
> 
> I am wondering if the rumours of 2 FF mirrorless cameras were true and the second one is being held because they don't want reviews of it with unfinished firmware. I have heard exactly 0 reviewers mention that the firmware updates are coming quickly following launch, so impressions are already being released, some of which targeting issues this firmware update will resolve.
> 
> My only point here is that this seems out of character for Canon - typically everything is intended to work 100% out of the box, and this is a step away from that. Unsure what that means in the grander scheme of things.




It's possible Canon working on certain technology trying to get it right (IBIS, eyeAF, etc). They figure they can wait to release next year in March for CP or May for Photokina to wow us wiht a better firmware.


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## Jack Jian (Sep 10, 2018)

EduPortas said:


> Anyone know if you can MAGNIFY focus _*during*_ video recording with the EOS R?
> 
> Apparently you can now do this with the XT-3, according to EOSHD. This is huge for video makers.


The Focus Guide feature from c700 is already much better than the magnify. This is the only Camera to have a Focus Guide feature from the bigger video brothers. You can check it. Youtube reviewers are idiots and hence won't cover those things as they dont know it.


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## Refurb7 (Sep 10, 2018)

This camera looks excellent to me. Yes, IBIS and dual cards would have been nice. But they are not dealbreakers for me. The overall design seems better than that of the Sony A73 in a number of ways (color, menus, ergonomics, low light autofocus, EVF, tilt screen, eye relief, aspect ratios, etc.). It costs a little more, but I can use my Canon flashes and all of my Canon lenses without worrying about 3rd party adapters.


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## syder (Sep 10, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Is it? So huge only Fuji have cottoned on?



Its a feature that all of the Cinema series have (with a magnify button that used to be on the handgrip by the thumb for very easy focus checking).

On the C200 i use it far less often because of the focus guide and dpaf... Which will both apparently be on the R.


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## Mikehit (Sep 10, 2018)

syder said:


> On the C200 i use it far less often because of the focus guide and dpaf... Which will both apparently be on the R.



Thakns. That sounds like the design of the R is probably Canon listening to people who use those functions for more than a few clips and what improves their user experience. Again.


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## Bilal (Sep 10, 2018)

I was waiting for this camera for sometime and wanted to upgrade to a full frame. I held on the urge to buy 6D mark ii.

I only wanted a couple of features for me to buy this. C-log and 120fps at 1080p were my top priority. They missed the 2nd one. I can compromise on the cropped 4K but not 120fps.

Is there any chance that the firmware will include 120fps at 1080p?


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## -pekr- (Sep 10, 2018)

Bilal said:


> I was waiting for this camera for sometime and wanted to upgrade to a full frame. I held on the urge to buy 6D mark ii.
> 
> I only wanted a couple of features for me to buy this. C-log and 120fps at 1080p were my top priority. They missed the 2nd one. I can compromise on the cropped 4K but not 120fps.
> 
> Is there any chance that the firmware will include 120fps at 1080p?



The question is - why there is a 4K crop and why there is no 120fps for the 1080p. If the answer is that Canon is protecting their higher lines, then logically yes, it can be done. What worries me more though, is the possibility, that Canon tech is not there yet, to provide such functionality. In such case, I just hope, that for an high-end model, Canon has new sensor tech at its sleeves.


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## Mikehit (Sep 10, 2018)

Bilal said:


> Is there any chance that the firmware will include 120fps at 1080p?



I suspect we won't have it due to limitations of the sensor.


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## onelifesoliveit (Sep 10, 2018)

I'm not jumping into Canon EOS R vagon any time soon (taking into account that no firmware update would add a 2nd memory card slot). Biggest fail ever

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038893458310746112


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## Ladislav (Sep 10, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> Nice! EyeAF in continuous focus. Another Sony's advantage gone. One feature I really wanted



I expect a lot of rant when people learn about fps the camera could make with EyeAF and servo AF. It is already 3 fps with AF priority without doing all the picture analysis computation to detect face and eye.


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## Ladislav (Sep 10, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> What is sad for me is the significant drop of the FPS with AF. The initial 8 FPS would have been great but 3 with AF priority is slow.
> Canon is probably having problems with the readout speed of the sensor or processing all that information for fast enough AF.



It is sad, I fully agree so let's just take this camera as what it is and not what everyone wish it was.

EOS R is not action camera and canon does not advertise it as an action camera. It could be excellent architecture / landscape / macro / product / portrait camera. Everything where action photography is not the purpose. I could imagine it also as very good travel camera due to small factor - action is sometimes needed but it could still do quite well even for that.

It is pity that it does not have built in GPS for landscape and travel photography but it is not such a huge miss when you want to save as much as possible battery for shooting.

What EOS R is not - replacement of 5D4 for people who do event / journalist / wildlife / sport photography. Most of moaning is from people who want it to be that as well. Let's hope that we will see such camera soon but it will cost more than 5D4, not less as EOS R does.

I don't understand video features so I will skip judging those.


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## BeenThere (Sep 10, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> I'm not jumping into Canon EOS R vagon any time soon (taking into account that no firmware update would add a 2nd memory card slot). Biggest fail ever
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038893458310746112


Plenty of cameras only have one card slot. It keeps cost down on consumer grade cams. If you need 2 slots for the added reliability, get an existing camera that has it, or wait for a future (higher cost ) release. There are differences between family sedans and Porsche’s also.


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## TMHKR (Sep 10, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> I'm not jumping into Canon EOS R vagon any time soon (taking into account that no firmware update would add a 2nd memory card slot). Biggest fail ever
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038893458310746112


Heh, he probably used the "new Lexar" card


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## adamfilip (Sep 10, 2018)

they should update firmware to add the 2nd SD slot lol


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 10, 2018)

Wow, tough crowd we have here, people are actually complaining that Canon is adding new features to a new camera?


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## onelifesoliveit (Sep 10, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> Nice! EyeAF in continuous focus. Another Sony's advantage gone. One feature I really wanted


Yep... with 3fps continuous AF & servo


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## transpo1 (Sep 11, 2018)

cellomaster27 said:


> This is more exciting for me because this points to a higher model (1DX or 5DS/R version of the EOS R) coming not too long after this release. That camera should be priced in the upper 3-4k. I mean look at the lenses that are coming out for the RF mount. They definitely definitely won't be stopping here. Did they hold back on this model? Yes, I think so but it's really not a bad camera at all. In fact, even just on specs sheet, it holds its own + you have an amazing set of lenses. I won't even talk about the software/functionality of the Sonys... yes, given time, I could probably get used to it. Sony lenses are expensive and limited. The 24-70mm f2.8 gm is $2200 - and it doesn't have any sort of image stabilization. Canon's EF 24-70mm 2.8 is going for ~1600 currently. Sony's 70-200mm f2.8 gm oss is ~2600, about 500-600 over the brand new canon 70-200mm III. They have no native 50mm f1.2 or a 28-70 f2. Canon is offering fast/no compromise lens mount adapters. Plus I'm curious as to how useful the custom function on the RF lenses will be used in real-life scenarios. This is going to be fun.



Reportedly, they registered two FF cameras months ago. My guess is they are holding one back (a higher res version) for release next spring and cautiously using the lower priced model as an entry point.


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## [email protected] (Sep 11, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Reportedly, they registered two FF cameras months ago. My guess is they are holding one back (a higher res version) for release next spring and cautiously using the lower priced model as an entry point.



If you're a company that makes its own sensors, with your own fab, an astronomically expensive and complicated endeavor, you would be sorely tempted to push the low-end camera out first - the one that didn't require a truly new sensor architecture. While the fab is creating a few hundred thousand warmed over 5d4 sensors, you'd be giving your design team an extra couple months to figure out how to make the readout not suck. You would hope that they would succeed, and that the fab would retool over the holidays and start pumping out higher-end models with more than 7 frames per second while using focus-priority servo AF (what the 5d4 can do, and therefor the critical perceived inflection point). 

All is going according to plan, but for no one knowing - probably not even Canon - when the engineers are going to solve readout. Sony had to do some world-class inventing to figure that one out. No doubt Canon will eventually too, but creative technical endeavors are difficult to assign time estimates. 

I'm willing to bet they don't have that tech in the can, otherwise we'd have seen both bodies released. Further, prognostication: if the engineers fail to completely solve readout, we'll see a 5ds series come out next with a large megapixel array and very poor FPS, to be received by a market that doesn't care a lot about FPS. If they do solve it, we might be treated to an all-rounder, with high megapixels and decent FPS. That would be the thing for the competition, but I don't think anyone knows how good the readout will be yet.


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## transpo1 (Sep 11, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> If you're a company that makes its own sensors, with your own fab, an astronomically expensive and complicated endeavor, you would be sorely tempted to push the low-end camera out first - the one that didn't require a truly new sensor architecture. While the fab is creating a few hundred thousand warmed over 5d4 sensors, you'd be giving your design team an extra couple months to figure out how to make the readout not suck. You would hope that they would succeed, and that the fab would retool over the holidays and start pumping out higher-end models with more than 7 frames per second while using focus-priority servo AF (what the 5d4 can do, and therefor the critical perceived inflection point).
> 
> All is going according to plan, but for no one knowing - probably not even Canon - when the engineers are going to solve readout. Sony had to do some world-class inventing to figure that one out. No doubt Canon will eventually too, but creative technical endeavors are difficult to assign time estimates.
> 
> I'm willing to bet they don't have that tech in the can, otherwise we'd have seen both bodies released. Further, prognostication: if the engineers fail to completely solve readout, we'll see a 5ds series come out next with a large megapixel array and very poor FPS, to be received by a market that doesn't care a lot about FPS. If they do solve it, we might be treated to an all-rounder, with high megapixels and decent FPS. That would be the thing for the competition, but I don't think anyone knows how good the readout will be yet.



We did see two cameras registered, though- interesting, no?


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 11, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> Nice! EyeAF in continuous focus. Another Sony's advantage gone. One feature I really wanted



Would be great if it worked for glass wearers. The EyeAF of my old EOS 3 never worked properly when I had my glasses on. Never tried the Sony EyeAF, any glass wearer out there knowing how good it is? 

Interestingly, Sony copied some old Canon inventions on a modern level, be it semitransparent fixed mirrors or eye tracking AF. Shows that Canon not always was that conservative like appeared to be in the past years...


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 11, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> Would be great if it worked for glass wearers. The EyeAF of my old EOS 3 never worked properly when I had my glasses on. Never tried the Sony EyeAF, any glass wearer out there knowing how good it is?
> 
> Interestingly, Sony copied some old Canon inventions on a modern level, be it semitransparent fixed mirrors or eye tracking AF. Shows that Canon not always was that conservative like appeared to be in the past years...



I think it's different vs old eye tracking AF. Sony version is pressing a button for the AF to track the focus on the eye. Whereas Canon version, you use the eye to focus where to focus. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 11, 2018)

AlanF said:


> AF is where the battle lines are drawn. Sony has done tremendous stuff with AF and it's to our advantage as Canon will have to compete.



I never thought Canon has one of the best AF system until now.

5635 AF points
-6EV with 1.2 lens
DPAF (world leading video AF)
eyeAF
Quickest AF for target acquisition



onelifesoliveit said:


> Yep... with 3fps continuous AF & servo



I'm not buying EOS-R since it's first generation and has one card slot. I'll wait for the next pro version.

I'm not sure Canon will catch up to Sony's eyeAF this generation, but I can see them catch up to them really quick.


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## AlanF (Sep 11, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> I think it's different vs old eye tracking AF. Sony version is pressing a button for the AF to track the focus on the eye. Whereas Canon version, you use the eye to focus where to focus. Correct me if I'm wrong.


You are correct - the decades' old Canon technology focussed on what you were looking at. The new eye AF picks out the eye of the subject and focusses on that.


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## AlanF (Sep 11, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> I never thought Canon has one of the best AF system until now.
> 
> 5635 AF points
> -6EV with 1.2 lens
> ...


The current Canon DSLRs are the fastest to lock on to subjects and beat Nikon and Sony. Where they fall behind is on tracking, and the big question is when they can process the DPAF data fast enough.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 11, 2018)

The Japanese website MyNavi interviewed Canon managers. And there are a couple of things I wanna share here:


Canon says the EOS-R sensor is not the same as the one used by the 5DIV. The new sensor has been refined and with new micro lenses and with addition of Dual Pixel AF.
The Image Quality of the EOS-R will be higher than that of any other Canon DSLR camera thanks to the new sensor, new processor and the new high performing lenses
Canon did not add on sensor stabilization because of the costs, the heating issue and size issues. But they will consider adding on *sensor stabilization on future models*
Of course we can expect lower and higher end EOS-R models to be released in the near future
Canon is considering making a 8k Cinema EOS-R camera.

So possibility of IBIS in future EOS R models


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## AlanF (Sep 11, 2018)

I can't believe that the IQ of the EOS-R sensor is higher than that of the 5DSR! The EOS-R might have better DR at low iso and be usable at very high iso, but the 50 mpx AA-filterless sensor is simply the best around for sharpness and IQ - my 5DSR is far sharper than my 5DIV for normal use.
If they are basing it on DR, then that would be an admission that they are behind Nikon and Sony.


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## jmoya (Sep 11, 2018)

maybe they'll add ibis firmware!


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 12, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> I think it's different vs old eye tracking AF. Sony version is pressing a button for the AF to track the focus on the eye. Whereas Canon version, you use the eye to focus where to focus. Correct me if I'm wrong.



Ah, so I always misunderstood - it's about tracking the eye of the motif, not your own photographer's eye! I checked it now on the web, it's simply pattern recognition. Well, with the progress in artificial neural networks, including deep learning, much more will be possible in future (e.g. auto-masking of annoying mothers-in-law). Btw even my old Canon G7 had already a quite reliable face recognition AF (adequate to the tiny sensor's resolution of only 10 MP). 

I personally would love to have an EOS 3 sort of EyeAF that really works. I am surely old school, but as long as my eyes are good enough, I can track my motifs by myself (I have to when I use some of my vintage cameras). But I understand that this makes the business of wedding photographers easier. They can have more free drinks and get their job properly done, because their camera takes over most of the work. It is like in the old times when you could heavily drink and drive, because your horse knew the way home.


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## Mikehit (Sep 12, 2018)

jmoya said:


> maybe they'll add ibis firmware!



Are saying that IBIS is a simple firmware update? That they have all the magnetic components in and around the sensor already just waiting for the software to be downloaded?


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## Random Orbits (Sep 12, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Are saying that IBIS is a simple firmware update? That they have all the magnetic components in and around the sensor already just waiting for the software to be downloaded?



You'll have to send it to Canon for the firmware update.


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## onelifesoliveit (Sep 12, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> I never thought Canon has one of the best AF system until now.
> 
> 5635 AF points
> -6EV with 1.2 lens
> ...



Well, they will need 29 native lenses along with tens of native 3rd party lenses such as Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron, Voigtlander, Rokinon, Meyer, Mitakon, Meike. As far as I know there are 205 lenses which are produced for e-mount by 3rd parties. Let's not forget that there are >100 Sony A-mount lenses which can be used on A7/A9 cameras with 4 different adapters. 

It took 2 years for Canon and Nikon develop mirrorless FF cameras. I don't think that it's an easy process and taking into account how Sony is committed to innovation, the cat and mouse story will continue for a couple of more years.


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## Mikehit (Sep 12, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> Well, they will need 29 native lenses along with tens of native 3rd party lenses such as Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron, Voigtlander, Rokinon, Meyer, Mitakon, Meike. As far as I know there are 205 lenses which are produced for e-mount by 3rd parties. Let's not forget that there are >100 Sony A-mount lenses which can be used on A7/A9 cameras with 4 different adapters.
> 
> It took 2 years for Canon and Nikon develop mirrorless FF cameras. I don't think that it's an easy process and taking into account how Sony is committed to innovation, the cat and mouse story will continue for a couple of more years.



And from what I have seen adapting A-mount lenses reduces a lot of AF and fps functionalities. Adapting Canon lenses looks like it will have much less impact.


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## Kit. (Sep 12, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> It took 2 years for Canon and Nikon develop mirrorless FF cameras. I don't think that it's an easy process


How do you think the process is different from developing mirrorlass APS-C or 1" cameras?



onelifesoliveit said:


> and taking into account how Sony is committed to innovation, the cat and mouse story will continue for a couple of more years.


You mean that in about 2 years Sony may abandon its cameras, as it abandoned its laptops?


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 12, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> Well, they will need 29 native lenses along with tens of native 3rd party lenses such as Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron, Voigtlander, Rokinon, Meyer, Mitakon, Meike. As far as I know there are 205 lenses which are produced for e-mount by 3rd parties. Let's not forget that there are >100 Sony A-mount lenses which can be used on A7/A9 cameras with 4 different adapters.
> 
> It took 2 years for Canon and Nikon develop mirrorless FF cameras. I don't think that it's an easy process and taking into account how Sony is committed to innovation, the cat and mouse story will continue for a couple of more years.



Sure that's appealing for some people that want ALL those lens. I only care if Canon FF mirrorless adapter works well with EF lens which most reviewers say it does. I'm actually consolidate all my lens to 5 lens for wedding works. It involves trinity of lens, super fast telephoto prime, and a macro lens. I remember a statistic most photographers who buy interchangeable lens only buy 1-2 lens so buying those lens will be meaningless for most photographers. 

I'm not a specs warrior and I'm not a videographer. I consider the overall system - ergonomics, handling, color, weather sealing, reliability, great EVF, support for EF lens. They just add eyeAF and will add continuous eyeAF via firmware. With that criteria, Canon is leading. Sony is leading in innovation in features (eyeAF, IBIS, 4K) but they also trail behind on weather sealing, fully touchscreen UI, fully articulate LCD, and ergonomic. That may not be important to you, but it's part of the user experience. 

Canon won't provide the best bang for your buck, but it's the right tool for me. We are all spoiled with the available technology. There are more to camera than just specs. Any FF camera produce in the last 5 years will give you great pictures, now, it just make things easier (eyeAF, IBIS, EVF). Just choose the right tool for your needs.


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## onelifesoliveit (Sep 13, 2018)

Kit. said:


> How do you think the process is different from developing mirrorlass APS-C or 1" cameras?
> 
> 
> You mean that in about 2 years Sony may abandon its cameras, as it abandoned its laptops?



If it was an easy process, we could expect both Canon and Nikon could introduce better cameras then entry level A7III. 

What is the relation between the laptop business and camera industry (where Sony has the 50% market share worldwide in imaging sensor business)?


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## Kit. (Sep 13, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> If it was an easy process, we could expect both Canon and Nikon could introduce better cameras then entry level A7III.


Don't know about Nikon, but Canon have introduced a better camera than A7III. At least a better camera _for me_ (but still not good enough to prefer over Canon DSLRs).



onelifesoliveit said:


> What is the relation between the laptop business and camera industry (where Sony has the 50% market share worldwide in imaging sensor business)?


Camera business is much closer to laptop business than to sensor business. I'd say the only common thing between camera business and sensor business is that both are businesses that involve some manufacturing.


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## onelifesoliveit (Sep 13, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Don't know about Nikon, but Canon have introduced a better camera than A7III. At least a better camera _for me_ (but still not good enough to prefer over Canon DSLRs).
> 
> Camera business is much closer to laptop business than to sensor business. I'd say the only common thing between camera business and sensor business is that both are businesses that involve some manufacturing.


OK


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 27, 2018)

I wonder if they are releasing the firmware soon before the camera is being release. I want to see a full review with continuous eyeAF


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## vaotix (Sep 30, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> I wonder if they are releasing the firmware soon before the camera is being release. I want to see a full review with continuous eyeAF



I don't have a link, but I seem to recall reading that the firmware upgrade wasn't coming until early 2019.


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## Talys (Sep 30, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Don't know about Nikon, but Canon have introduced a better camera than A7III. At least a better camera _for me_ (but still not good enough to prefer over Canon DSLRs).



This is exactly my case. To look at it the another way, there is not a mirrorless that is good enough for me to prefer over Canon (or Nikon) DSLRs, yet. On the other hand, I will almost certainly buy an EOS R anyways -- not because it's better (for me) than a DSLR overall, but because it will probably have a few features I really like, and since they will share accessories and EF lenses, they can complement each other. It's also a good price point, and is the 5DIV I always wanted but that Canon never made -- that is with a flippy screen.

And on the bright side, I can grow my LPE6 battery and charger collection


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## Talys (Sep 30, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> If it was an easy process, we could expect both Canon and Nikon could introduce better cameras then entry level A7III.



I may be the odd man out on this one, but I am not really fond of the A7III. I much prefer either the A7R3 or the A9 (yes, I understand they cost more, too). The EVF hit is just too much for me, and although I have nothing against the lower megapixels, it really makes crop mode much less useful. Given a choice between the 3 current Sony FF's, I would probably still take A7R3 for a blend of value and featureset.

There are certainly some nice features in the A7III, but the EOS R seems to have a better blend of the features that I personally care about - DPAF, reversible tilty screen, a nice spot for resolution, a touch screen that works, better battery life, a bigger body and a normal flash shoe (hopefully, also, it works with a normal flash illuminator). Of course, EF compatibility is huge. It's not that I don't like IBIS, 2 cards, joystick, and a few other things with Sony. I just don't really value them as highly.


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## AlanF (Sep 30, 2018)

Talys said:


> This is exactly my case. To look at it the another way, there is not a mirrorless that is good enough for me to prefer over Canon (or Nikon) DSLRs, yet. On the other hand, I will almost certainly buy an EOS R anyways -- not because it's better (for me) than a DSLR overall, but because it will probably have a few features I really like, and since they will share accessories and EF lenses, they can complement each other. It's also a good price point, and is the 5DIV I always wanted but that Canon never made -- that is with a flippy screen.
> 
> And on the bright side, I can grow my LPE6 battery and charger collection


Phil, you are succumbing to GAS.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 30, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> If it was an easy process, we could expect both Canon and Nikon could introduce better cameras then entry level A7III.
> 
> What is the relation between the laptop business and camera industry (where Sony has the 50% market share worldwide in imaging sensor business)?


Laptops were dropped simply because they were losing money. Sony has a reputation of dropping products that do not make lots of money, and also stopping support of products once a later model is released. I have not seen this happening with their newer high end cameras, so they are aware of their bad reputation, and have so far done a good job of support.


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## Mikehit (Sep 30, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Laptops were dropped simply because they were losing money. Sony has a reputation of dropping products that do not make lots of money, and also stopping support of products once a later model is released. I have not seen this happening with their newer high end cameras, so they are aware of their bad reputation, and have so far done a good job of support.



This is where I prevaricate about Sony - yes, they seem to want to succeed in the camera market and are really doing all they can to push it through. Their sensors have given them a massive boost to underpin their development and they do seem to realise that they now have to solidify the 'non-spec sheet stuff' like after sales support and ergonomics. But at the end of the day, there are now 3 new competitors in the FF ML field and unless they make more of an effort to build a native user base instead of relying on stealing clients from Canon/Nikon/Panasonic they may drift towards that 'is it making enough money' point.
Also, they have brought in the A73 at an amazing price. Current wisdom talk about ML being cheaper to produce than DSLR but I am not convinced that makes such a big difference and I suspect that the profit margins they need per unit to recoup R&D investments add more to Sony than CaNikon. And their A7R3 and A9 have taken a permanent 15% drop in price here in the UK and was this built into their costing forecasts?
I think Sony are looking at their imaging in a way that they would not have done even a couple of years ago and using it as a high-profile 'flagship' for their sensors, and maybe they need to accept lower profit margins than they historically would have done. I hope so.


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## Talys (Oct 1, 2018)

AlanF said:


> Phil, you are succumbing to GAS.



I think I've beem succumbing to GAS since I was 18


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## JohanCruyff (Jan 16, 2019)

Firmware update "soon after release".

BTW, I recently read a sentence written in 2003 (*): "The end of the world is coming".

We'll see.



(*) There are similar prophecies from the previous century / millenium.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 16, 2019)

There are also some BIG differences, so don't be so sure!

Jack


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