# Another 50mp FF DSLR Mention [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 24, 2014)

```
<p>The world continues to wait for Canon to jump back into the resolution race, and it looks like they will be in 2015 (though we have previously said they would in 2014). A few new mentions of a 50mp camera coming in the first half of 2015 to which there will be 2 variants. One with a low pass filter, and another without. I’m not sure Canon would get into 2 SKUs for one camera body, though they have done it for astronomy camera purposes. The camera will not be an EOS-1 style camera and would be a new camera above the 5D line. You’re free to call it the “3D”, but I’ve never been a fan of that name simply because it could be confusing to consumers.</p>
<p>Things are getting a little bit muddled with 5D Mark IV talk and Cinema EOS talk (lots of 4K products coming) and I suspect things are getting pretty fragmented. We currently have nothing reliable to report as far as a 5D Mark III replacement is concerned. I also have nothing to report about an EOS-1D X Mark II, which is something that is sure to be addressed over the next 12 months.</p>
<p>I suspect we’re going to see a new Rebel in the first quarter of 2015, and that will probably be Canon’s next DSLR. The EOS M should come before the Rebel and it could be as soon as December.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


----------



## Dylan777 (Nov 24, 2014)

I guess my 5D III & 1DX will stay in the bag for another year plus


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 24, 2014)

I believe there is more of a high megapixel sensor under test. I do not think Canon will take a leap of 22 to 50 megapixel. Maybe 38?


----------



## tayassu (Nov 24, 2014)

Sounds exciting!!!  
4 pro-level DSLR's in one year (7DII included) + two amateur-level cameras...


----------



## bestimage (Nov 24, 2014)

what about sensor quality


----------



## josephandrews222 (Nov 24, 2014)

another M in December? That's next month! And Dec 1 is just one week from today...talk about a stocking stuffer...


----------



## BeenThere (Nov 24, 2014)

That high of a pixel density will make low noise a challenge. You have to give in one area to get in another.


----------



## infared (Nov 24, 2014)

bestimage said:


> what about sensor quality



psssstttt....Sony sensor.


----------



## IndustrialAndrew (Nov 24, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> I believe there is more of a high megapixel sensor under test. I do not think Canon will take a leap of 22 to 50 megapixel. Maybe 38?



It would be unlikely that the new big sensor will match the D810 over a year later. They will imho go closer to 50 as the rumours say.


----------



## Louis (Nov 24, 2014)

Interesting, I can't see it personally, a 5D4 is waiting its upgrade and will be the 4K camera, how can Canon release 2 50mps cameras in 2015 and not 1 of them be a 5D4 unless the 5D4 is 50 mp and does 4k! Highly unlikely!


----------



## Maui5150 (Nov 24, 2014)

I am expecting 45MP - 50MP

My feeling has been Canon has been making strides, the 7D MK II was a solid upgrade, maybe not as much as some people wanted but it is far and away their best APS-C with pro-level AF and burst. 

My guess is this will be a high MP beast, decent AF, moderate low light.

Position wise, 1DX MK II will still be the flagship, next version gets a boost, 20+ MP (maybe 24), still 12+ FPS, and canons best AF (another step up) and low light. 

The BEAST will sit in between the 1DX and the 5D MK IV. The BEAST will have 50MP sensor, 4 - 5 FPS, 5D MK III AF, and low light comparable to the 5D MK III

The 5D MK IV will have high 20s MP (maybe around 28 MP) , 5 FPS, Low Light close to the 1 DX MK II and AF around what the 7d MK II is

Fun to speculate, but can easily see Canon making a beast MP camera


----------



## Maui5150 (Nov 24, 2014)

Louis said:


> Interesting, I can't see it personally, a 5D4 is waiting its upgrade and will be the 4K camera, how can Canon release 2 50mps cameras in 2015 and not 1 of them be a 5D4 unless the 5D4 is 50 mp and does 4k! Highly unlikely!



Why does one have to be a 5D IV

Beast / Beast Astro

1 DX MK II

5D MK IV in 2016

I think both the 1DX and the 5D will be upgraded in the 20s but stay below 30MP, just as the Nikon 4 has stayed less than the 810 and the 750 did not jump up into the 30s either.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Nov 24, 2014)

Sony are definately leading the pack with sensors and currently supply Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Hasselblad, Phase One and even Canon for their high end compact model. Canon is over-due launching their next-gen sensor tech and maybe this will be it but going it alone is expensive. 
50MP low noise I dont think will be the challenge the processors now & the level of software are better able to deal with this than previous sensor tech. 50MP though may show up more weaknesses in older lenses which is why Canon are working on so many new lenses. 

50MP 4K in full-frame will make an awsome video camera so expect the Cinema side to benefit if this rumor is true.


----------



## unfocused (Nov 24, 2014)

I could see Canon doing something similar to what Sony does: use the same basic body and substitute in different sensors. This could be a 5D HD (High Definition) that uses a scaled-up version of the 7DII sensor. 

Then wait until 2016 to release a 5D IV.

Still wondering though, who is going to buy the 50mp version. As the D800 demonstrated, the market for high megapixel bodies isn't that large. That's why I see Canon trying to save some R&D and manufacturing costs by putting it into a 5D body. If they can reduce the manufacturing costs it might be economically feasible. But if they need an entirely new design and production line, I'm not sure the market can sustain that.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 24, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>The world continues to wait for Canon to jump back into the resolution race,



i kind of doubt the world is 

it's possible - the 7DII sensor scaled up would be 51.2Mp - close enough to 50Mp to call it spades.

the noise and response on a per pixel basis would be at the same as the 7DII with the obvious increase of image quality.

the 7DII going by sensorgen is a quantum leap up for canon - and well, is pretty top notch overall for QE. they still need to tame the low ISO beast so that people stop whining.

the 18Mp sensors were rolling around 40% QE, the latest with the 7DII - an impressive 59%.


----------



## slclick (Nov 24, 2014)

PEOPLE!
It's far too early for a 5DMk4, Canon is not Nikon.


----------



## kphoto99 (Nov 24, 2014)

What if Canon does not put a bayer array filter on this and uses 3 pixes for each output pixels. 
This would make it about 16mp sensor with better light gathering abilities.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 24, 2014)

slclick said:


> PEOPLE!
> It's far too early for a 5DMk4, Canon is not Nikon.



you know, a quick google would have told you how silly your post is. 5D was replaced in 3 years, 5dII in 3.5 years... 

sept 2015 (next year) would be .. what? 3.5 years.


----------



## bestimage (Nov 24, 2014)

infared said:


> bestimage said:
> 
> 
> > what about sensor quality
> ...


----------



## jaayres20 (Nov 24, 2014)

I have a feeling this will beat anything Sony has and frankly will be a little disappointed if it is a sony sensor. I personally much prefer the colors of Canon sensors to sony. I remember before the 1DX and 5D3 all anyone could talk about was how disappointing the AF system was for Canon. I remember all of these jokes with blurry pictures saying that it was shot by a Canon. Canon responded with the best AF system available and Sony and Nikon has yet to match it in the last few years. I have a feeling that Canon will surpass Sony in the sensor department and then everyone will find something new to bash Canon relentlessly over. Like mirrors.


----------



## JoeDavid (Nov 24, 2014)

If they do release another mirrorless M body, we need to get out the "torches and pitchforks" and storm the castle if they don't use a Dual-Pixel sensor. That tech would actually make an M attractive.


----------



## racebit (Nov 24, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> you know, a quick google would have told you how silly your post is. 5D was replaced in 3 years, 5dII in 3.5 years...
> 
> sept 2015 (next year) would be .. what? 3.5 years.



Silly is thinking 5D4 will be 2015.
The 50MP is just a scaled dual pixel 7D2 sensor. 
So 2015 is 1D2 and 50MP.
5D4 is 2016 if all goes well, but it may slip to 2017.
Canon took 5 years to replace the 7D, when it was completely obsolete, even the 70D was better.
5D3 is still the king, so I don't see it being replaced any time soon.


----------



## bartoloman (Nov 24, 2014)

Still waiting, still hoping, but not for long. 2015 will be my final year, I've been waiting since 2008 for a decent replacement. While Sony is evolving at a steady pace, Canon isn't. A pity !


----------



## slclick (Nov 24, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > PEOPLE!
> ...



I guess time has just been flying by as I have enjoyed my Mk3. Plus I don't get body gas only glass gas so they can put out a Mk4 with all the bells and whistles you guys complain you can't live without, haha and I'll spend my money elsewhere.


----------



## Diko (Nov 24, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > PEOPLE!
> ...


My my my! Is time passing by so fast?!?


BTW did anyone saw that coming?

Huge Sony sensor advance heralds amazing video features – 6K, and 1080p at up to 16,000fps


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 24, 2014)

racebit said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > you know, a quick google would have told you how silly your post is. 5D was replaced in 3 years, 5dII in 3.5 years...
> ...



sorry the 7DII has what do with this? right. nothing?

canon has replaced each 5D Model on around a 3 year cycle.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 24, 2014)

bartoloman said:


> Still waiting, still hoping, but not for long. 2015 will be my final year, I've been waiting since 2008 for a decent replacement. While Sony is evolving at a steady pace, Canon isn't. A pity !


lol @ a decent replacement.


----------



## racebit (Nov 24, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> racebit said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



7D2 is a prosumer camera, like the 5D3 and tells us Canon release cycles are increasing, both for economical and technological reasons.
But forget the 7D and revise your math on the 5D. if the 5D2 was 3 years and 5D4 was 3.5 years, the 5D4 will be?
Exactly: 4 years (rounded down from 4.1). So that would be March 2016. But we will not be so lucky.


----------



## drjlo (Nov 24, 2014)

JoeDavid said:


> If they do release another mirrorless M body, we need to get out the "torches and pitchforks" and storm the castle if they don't use a Dual-Pixel sensor. That tech would actually make an M attractive.



Of all these rumored cameras, the one I would actually have most use for is the M. I bought the original M and had fun with it, but I gave it away as its IQ was not high enough. I just hope its IQ at least matches the last generation from other companies,e.g. Sony A6000.


----------



## RGF (Nov 24, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> [
> 
> 
> it's possible - the 7DII sensor scaled up would be 51.2Mp - close enough to 50Mp to call it spades.



Will the new camera have a Bayer sensor or something more akin to the Foveon multilayer sensor? If the later, is that 50 actual MP or equivalent (Perhaps 25 actual MP but claim twice the resolution)?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 24, 2014)

sailfast32111 said:


> I am giving it until the end of the first quarter next year to see if there is another sensor to compete with the Nikon d810 and if not, I am selling all my Canon gear. I love landscape and I am disappointed in the lack of dynamic range. I test drove the Nikon d750 last weekend and even at 24 mp, I was amazed with the dynamic range and focus ability compared to the 5d mk3. I want that body for portrait and sport and the 810 for landscape if Canon doesn't step up and grow a set.



Hello and goodbye.


----------



## Maui5150 (Nov 24, 2014)

bartoloman said:


> Still waiting, still hoping, but not for long. 2015 will be my final year, I've been waiting since 2008 for a decent replacement. While Sony is evolving at a steady pace, Canon isn't. A pity !



Something tells me if you really have been waiting since 2008, you would have found this site and had at least 5 or 6 posts by now instead of three... ) 

Anyone on the fence or pining for 6 years would be far more vocal


----------



## Maui5150 (Nov 24, 2014)

racebit said:


> 7D2 is a prosumer camera, like the 5D3 and tells us Canon release cycles are increasing, both for economical and technological reasons.
> But forget the 7D and revise your math on the 5D. if the 5D2 was 3 years and 5D4 was 3.5 years, the 5D4 will be?
> Exactly: 4 years (rounded down from 4.1). So that would be March 2016. But we will not be so lucky.



You have fallacy in your logic to believe on two data points that a release cycle is linear.

I highly doubt the 5DMKIV will be released 4.1 years after the 5DMKIII and the D5V 4.9 years after that.

If anything, seems to me that the 5D MK III might have been a tad late. 

More importantly, Canon will likely release its upgrades when it feels there is a demand as well as have a product they think meets that demand


----------



## slclick (Nov 24, 2014)

Maui5150 said:


> racebit said:
> 
> 
> > 7D2 is a prosumer camera, like the 5D3 and tells us Canon release cycles are increasing, both for economical and technological reasons.
> ...



I agree with that statement. What happens when the date has elapsed? Does the next round of whining begin? Are their calendars marked?
Furthermore when multiple facilities suffer physical and radiation damage it is a given that production cycles are effected.


----------



## Perio (Nov 24, 2014)

Maui5150 said:


> racebit said:
> 
> 
> > 7D2 is a prosumer camera, like the 5D3 and tells us Canon release cycles are increasing, both for economical and technological reasons.
> ...



I remember back in 2011 people couldn't wait to see 5diii, as 5dii seemed to be outdated. I don't think that's the case with 5diii. I think 5diii is still very very capable camera and not that many people feel it needs to be upgraded. Same story with 1dx.


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 24, 2014)

Maui5150 said:


> More importantly, Canon will likely release its upgrades when it feels there is a demand as well as have a product they think meets that demand



That's not the only aspect. Outside the Rebel disposable cameras Canon protects their customer's investment by not obsoleting it by random market force. Take that, Nikon d610 after d600.

The reason why I bought my 6d a year ago is that I knew they wouldn't release an updated 6d2 soon. If it wasn't for this trust, the money would still be in my pocket and not with Canon's shareholders.



sailfast32111 said:


> I am giving it until the end of the first quarter next year to see if there is another sensor to compete with the Nikon d810 and if not, I am selling all my Canon gear. I love landscape and I am disappointed in the lack of dynamic range.



You're blatantly ignoring the considered opinion of a lot of Canon experts: If you cannot make do with what Canon currently offers, there's something wrong with you and/or your photography.


----------



## Arctic Photo (Nov 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> sailfast32111 said:
> 
> 
> > I am giving it until the end of the first quarter next year to see if there is another sensor to compete with the Nikon d810 and if not, I am selling all my Canon gear. I love landscape and I am disappointed in the lack of dynamic range. I test drove the Nikon d750 last weekend and even at 24 mp, I was amazed with the dynamic range and focus ability compared to the 5d mk3. I want that body for portrait and sport and the 810 for landscape if Canon doesn't step up and grow a set.
> ...


That was funny


----------



## slclick (Nov 24, 2014)

You're blatantly ignoring the considered opinion of a lot of Canon experts: If you cannot make do with what Canon currently offers, there's something wrong with you and/or your photography.


Well said Marsu


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 24, 2014)

dilbert said:


> That may be, but people that own Canon aren't going to wait another 2 years for a 5D Mark III replacement. Instead, next year they'll be buying Sony's latest thing and selling off Canon.



YAPODFC. Yawn.




dilbert said:


> If the 7D Mark II's sensor is the best demonstration of where Canon's sensor technology is at then I'm not going to wait for a full frame version of that sensor because Canon haven't fixed the read noise problem at low ISO.



Wow, that sucks for all those people using Canon sensors and shooting at low ISO. How do they ever manage to take a good picture, get images accepted by clients or published in magazines, win prestigious awards, or anything like that?


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 24, 2014)

racebit said:


> 7D2 is a prosumer camera, like the 5D3 and tells us Canon release cycles are increasing, both for economical and technological reasons.



The 7DII uses significantly more advanced processes than canon's prior generation of sensor. odds are they won't take nearly as long to produce other variations of it.

we also don't know what caused this to be late - you're making some pretty grandiose assumptions



racebit said:


> But forget the 7D and revise your math on the 5D. if the 5D2 was 3 years and 5D4 was 3.5 years, the 5D4 will be?
> Exactly: 4 years (rounded down from 4.1). So that would be March 2016. But we will not be so lucky.



not really - and market conditions - the D750 / D810 are selling more than canon's full frames in north America, there's implied pressure to update the 5D and also the 6D camera bodies.

they are both due - I guess we'll find out next year who's right. there's been also a lot of murmuring happening - and that usually doesn't happen if they are two + years out.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 24, 2014)

dilbert said:


> racebit said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



you mean the sensor with a 59% QE which is a remarkable jump in two generations for canon? 41 or so % in the 18Mp sensor realm up to 59% in really less than two years?

yeah, damn that sensor blows.

sensor has nothing to do with canon's issues with low ISO.


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 24, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> The 7DII uses significantly more advanced processes than canon's prior generation of sensor. odds are they won't take nearly as long to produce other variations of it.



Odds are they will run their older production lines as soon as they can sell these sensors. Canon is an enterprise directed at maximizing profit, not delivering the latest tech to all market segments asap. There's a reason why they kept putting in variations of their 18mp sensor into practically everything...


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 24, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Odds are they will run their older production lines as soon as they can sell these sensors.



that statement makes no sense.


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 24, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Odds are they will run their older production lines as soon as they can sell these sensors.
> ...



I admire the skillfull argumentation on your side. Would you care to elaborate further?

If you'd be the Canon CEO, you'd close down every older production line as soon as a new tech is available that cannot be implemented as an in-place upgrade? Well, you're company wouldn't be in business for long 

Btw: Is it just me, or are fewer and fewer people actually attempting to have a civilized conversation around here? If it continues this way, I hope Canon won't release anything new for the next years as any new release seems to legitimize rudeness.


----------



## Louis (Nov 24, 2014)

jeffa4444 said:


> Sony are definately leading the pack with sensors and currently supply Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Hasselblad, Phase One and even Canon for their high end compact model. Canon is over-due launching their next-gen sensor tech and maybe this will be it but going it alone is expensive.
> 50MP low noise I dont think will be the challenge the processors now & the level of software are better able to deal with this than previous sensor tech. 50MP though may show up more weaknesses in older lenses which is why Canon are working on so many new lenses.
> 
> 50MP 4K in full-frame will make an awsome video camera so expect the Cinema side to benefit if this rumor is true.



You want a 5D4 and maybe 2 50 mp cameras coming from Canon and Canon wants them all to compete against each other? you know thats not going to happen,


----------



## slclick (Nov 24, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



Furthermore it seems more and more non Canon users are frequenting the site. It's their prerogative to do so but just to stir the pot? Please. There are other vacant bridges.


----------



## jaayres20 (Nov 24, 2014)

sailfast32111 said:


> I am giving it until the end of the first quarter next year to see if there is another sensor to compete with the Nikon d810 and if not, I am selling all my Canon gear. I love landscape and I am disappointed in the lack of dynamic range. I test drove the Nikon d750 last weekend and even at 24 mp, I was amazed with the dynamic range and focus ability compared to the 5d mk3. I want that body for portrait and sport and the 810 for landscape if Canon doesn't step up and grow a set.



Focus ability? The D750 has 51 AF points with 15 cross type sensors. The 5D3 has 61 with 41 cross type sensors and they all work perfectly, even in low light. How is the D750 better?


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 24, 2014)

jaayres20 said:


> Focus ability? The D750 has 51 AF points with 15 cross type sensors. The 5D3 has 61 with 41 cross type sensors and they all work perfectly, even in low light. How is the D750 better?



I didn't look into the d750 specs and I'm not in the market for one, but you do notice that the full-fledged 5d3/1dx af array is only available with some select new and expensive lenses? The other lens groups quickly degrade the af capability into something much less appealing, though even the worst 5d3 lens group is better than the 6d


----------



## jaayres20 (Nov 24, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> jaayres20 said:
> 
> 
> > Focus ability? The D750 has 51 AF points with 15 cross type sensors. The 5D3 has 61 with 41 cross type sensors and they all work perfectly, even in low light. How is the D750 better?
> ...



Anything f/2.8 and faster. I still think you can get most of, if not all of the cross type sensors at f/4.


----------



## PureClassA (Nov 24, 2014)

What I've learned today from all this is Nikon/Sony people love Nikon/Sony, and Canon people love Canon. Quit all the sniping. We will never all agree, and we don't need to.

I'm looking forward to Canon's next gen. I hope these rumors pan out. I've been saying for a while, Canon has to respond to the market proactively. Can't wait for market share to get heavily impacted before they do. We have rumors about Foven. Rumors about Canon using the Sony 50MP sensor supposedly getting unveiled in 2 months, rumors about Canon's own high MP... I believe 2015 could well be a do or die year for Canon's future, or at least significantly impact it.

They have market experts paid far more than all of us to measure these variables and I seriously doubt they aren't hearing our wishes. Of course, they have to do something about it for them to matter.

That said, very happy with my 6D. I'm in no real hurry. But if they can pull a 50MP rabbit out the hat (and you know they wont release it if it's pure crap), Id take a good look, because I'd effective have a FF and CROP in one body.


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 24, 2014)

jaayres20 said:


> Anything f/2.8 and faster.



The 5d3? Nope, urban legend, the lens' max. aperture is only part of it. Look at the lens groups in the 1dx or 5d3 manual.


----------



## PureClassA (Nov 24, 2014)

And even if I went with a Sony body (looking at A7S for video) I'm not ditching Canon glass. No way. God Bless Metabones.


----------



## PureClassA (Nov 24, 2014)

dilbert said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > What I've learned today from all this is Nikon/Sony people love Nikon/Sony, and Canon people love Canon. Quit all the sniping. We will never all agree, and we don't need to.
> ...



......sheesh... "and Dilbert loves Samsung" ;D


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 24, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> I didn't look into the d750 specs and I'm not in the market for one, but you do notice that the full-fledged 5d3/1dx af array is only available with some select new and expensive lenses?



Yeah, new and expensive lenses like the EF 50mm f/1.8 II and the EF 35mm f/2, both from 1990 and one of them costing just over $100. 

I guess you didn't look into the 5DIII/1D X specs much, either. :


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 24, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Clearly Canon is no longer top of the pile when it comes to IQ coming out of the sensors in digital cameras, in certain select situations, and ignoring considerations like lenses, flash systems, autofocus performance, etc.



There, I fixed that for you.


----------



## PureClassA (Nov 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly Canon is no longer top of the pile when it comes to IQ coming out of the sensors in digital cameras, in certain select situations, ignoring considerations like lenses, flash systems, autofocus performance, etc.
> ...



LOL


----------



## PureClassA (Nov 24, 2014)

http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/5d-mk-iv.htm

For amusement only .... decently plausible amusement only


----------



## InterMurph (Nov 24, 2014)

PureClassA said:


> And even if I went with a Sony body (looking at A7S for video) I'm not ditching Canon glass. No way. God Bless Metabones.


I got an a7s for video (mostly school plays), and had my first chance to use it last week.

It is literally unbelievable how good it is. I recorded some auditions at ISO 1000, F/4.0, 1/50th, and the image quality is outstanding. I used the Metabones adapter version IV, the Canon 70-200mm II IS, and the Canon 1.4x extender.

Simultaneously, I had my new 7D2 going at similar settings. The constant auto-focus is great, but the picture is mushier.

I love the a7s for video.


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't look into the d750 specs and I'm not in the market for one, but you do notice that the full-fledged 5d3/1dx af array is only available with some select new and expensive lenses?
> ...



LOL, you've made your point - I can use the full 1dx af array with a 50/1.8 ;-)

My point is: popular lenses like 24-70L1/2.8, 100mm macros/2.8 aren't group A - other popular budget choices like the 400/5.6 have a lot less cross-points which is about on par with the d750. Thus general statements are difficult with the Canon system while Nikon really just depends on the max. aperture up to 11 cross points at f8 (5d3: 1 (one)).


----------



## scyrene (Nov 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly Canon is no longer top of the pile when it comes to IQ coming out of the sensors in digital cameras, in certain select situations, and ignoring considerations like lenses, flash systems, autofocus performance, etc.
> ...



In the time I took to consider whether I could be bothered to take him up on that, you beat me to it!


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 24, 2014)

bestimage said:


> what about sensor quality



Indeed. Personally I'd be more excited by a 24MP high DR sensor than the same old, same old 50MP sensor.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 24, 2014)

Maui5150 said:


> The 5D MK IV will have high 20s MP (maybe around 28 MP) , 5 FPS, Low Light close to the 1 DX MK II and AF around what the 7d MK II is



D810 already does 36MP at 5fps and 6fps at 25MP and 7fps at 14MP and it'll will already have been out for a while so why the 5D4 dropping slower than the 5D3? just to get like 4-5 more MP after all these years?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 24, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <p>The world continues to wait for Canon to jump back into the resolution race,
> ...



The new sensorgen data was not correctly calculated, it's all random, I mean some old Nikon DSLR have better than 100% ;D : so most doubt the 59% for the 7D2.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 24, 2014)

racebit said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > you know, a quick google would have told you how silly your post is. 5D was replaced in 3 years, 5dII in 3.5 years...
> ...



Wow so you really think Canon should wait til 2017 for the 5D4? With D800 out there for years by then and even the D810 getting replaced around then perhaps just about?
And with 4k coming out all over?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > That may be, but people that own Canon aren't going to wait another 2 years for a 5D Mark III replacement. Instead, next year they'll be buying Sony's latest thing and selling off Canon.
> ...



Hey why don't you jsut sell all your current gear and go get a 1960s camera. People won prestigious awards and got images accepted back then too.

Hello and goodbye.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 24, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



Actually you should hope for the opposite, that they release a lot and good stuff soon. Then the forum will become civilized as those who want more DR and more MP and 4k and so on and so forth will have it and those who claimed that none of that stuff matters will be able to crow about how it is all amazing and utterly critical (now that Canon has it/leads) and all the rudeness will go away (at least within the Canon forums, the fanboys will then go troll Nikon forums and the like).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 24, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> My point is: popular lenses like 24-70L1/2.8, 100mm macros/2.8 aren't group A - other popular budget choices like the 400/5.6 have a lot less cross-points which is about on par with the d750. Thus general statements are difficult with the Canon system while Nikon really just depends on the max. aperture up to 11 cross points at f8 (5d3: 1 (one)).



Which would you prefer – a simpler system like Nikon's AF with essentially a fixed number of points and crosses, or a more complex system like Canon's, where with faster lenses you gain benefits like more cross-type points and greater accuracy and precision?

Oh, and if you choose the 'simpler' Nikon AF system, don't forget your concordance list to know which lenses can AF on which bodies...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 24, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Back then, in the past? We're talking about today. Your implication is that current Canon sensors are not capable of delivering publication or award-winning images today. That implication is totally asinine and only serves to make you look silly. But thanks for sharing your opinion.


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 24, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Hey why don't you jsut sell all your current gear and go get a 1960s camera. People won prestigious awards and got images accepted back then too.



I just wish they would scale up the 7D2 sensor to use on a back for an 8X10 camera. 49640x62050 pixels.... 3.077gigapixels... 16GB raw files.... back to the good old days.... take a picture, put in a new card, take another picture, put in another card.... head back home, load it onto the computer and 3 hours later, see if it was any good..... I miss the good old days


----------



## NancyP (Nov 25, 2014)

Don, they still are making film........ maybe not the abundant variety as in the distant past, but still, there are good 4 x 5 films around, and if you want 8 x 10 or larger, you join a buyer's club organized by Badger (a LF equipment store) or an individual.


----------



## Don Haines (Nov 25, 2014)

NancyP said:


> Don, they still are making film........ maybe not the abundant variety as in the distant past, but still, there are good 4 x 5 films around, and if you want 8 x 10 or larger, you join a buyer's club organized by Badger (a LF equipment store) or an individual.



For some strange reason, I still have rolls of Kodachrome64 in the freezer..... but the darkroom and enlarger are long gone.... I am not going back to shooting film, for me, those days are gone


----------



## jeffa4444 (Nov 25, 2014)

So much talk about sensors must be a lot of people deeply disappointed with their photography. Personally for 90% of the time the 6d gives me great IQ for landscape. I'm really only after dynamic range improvement not resolution or colorimagery per se. 12 stops is not enough at least 14 with the bias towards highlights in motion picture the Alexa already provides this.


----------



## PVS (Nov 25, 2014)

It's a pity how talk got polarized in last year on this forum, it's like a fascism mindset "either you're with us or you're against us!". 
If people don't see any room for improvement in certain areas than there won't be any. The reason why we got excellent AF in bodies such as 5dmk3 and 1dx is because people constantly complained. But even when you know fire feeds fire it's still sad to see intelligent people get polarised like that and dig their heads in the sand.

RIP FakeChuckWestfall.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 25, 2014)

PVS said:


> If people don't see any room for improvement in certain areas than there won't be any.



Hmmmm...I haven't really seen many people, if any, deny room for improvement. But there is a significant difference between 'it would be great if Canon improved their sensors' and 'Canon is stuck in the dark ages of technology, their sensors produce poor and unacceptable image quality, and the company is ******* because they are failing to innovate'.


----------



## CvH (Nov 25, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



The 5D III has a total of 20 high-precision off-center cross-type points for EF lenses with maximum apertures of f/4 or larger.

Reference: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Comparisons/Canon-EOS-7D-II-1D-X-5D-III-AF-Comparison.aspx


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 25, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Thank you for pointing outside of in certain select situations, such as sports and wildlife photography, there's no reason to buy Canon.



Good try. Actually, pretty pathetic...but I thought I'd start by saying something nice.




dilbert said:


> Well consider that reviewers everywhere are now generally panning Canon when it comes to their DSLRs and especially the sensor.



Really? Reviewers everywhere? You need to read more widely.




dilbert said:


> I'd prefer a system which gave me the same AF performance with every lens because then I'm not faced with having to make any compromises.



Even if that AF performance was less accurate and precise than it could be with faster lenses? That's a pretty big compromise you'd be making for that 'same AF performance'. Oh, and speaking of same AF performance with every lens, every Canon lens that mounts directly on a Canon dSLR will autofocus. Will every Nikon lens that mounts directly on a Nikon dSLR autofocus? More compromises...




dilbert said:


> And I'd prefer my AF to work at -3EV rather than to have a select few AF sensors work better with f/2.8 or faster lenses.



A select few working better with f/2.8 lenses. 20 AF points working better with f/4 lenses. As for -3 EV, do you often find yourself shooting with settings such as, for example, 1/15 s, f/2.8, ISO 102400? In many cases, settings consistent with -3 EV do not produce usable images. 




dilbert said:


> But that's just me.



Yes, just you. Someone who clearly has a poor grasp of facts where dSLRs and lenses are concerned.


----------



## TeT (Nov 25, 2014)

What kind of people wonder around taking pictures in the dark with teleconverters?




dilbert said:


> Nikon's is more rewarding if you're using teleconverters with your lens or you're focusing in very low light situations (-3EV on the D750.)


----------



## asmundma (Nov 25, 2014)

InterMurph said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > And even if I went with a Sony body (looking at A7S for video) I'm not ditching Canon glass. No way. God Bless Metabones.
> ...



I did the same, canon video is now scrap on the DSRLs.


----------



## Woody (Nov 25, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Thank you for pointing outside of in certain select situations, such as sports and wildlife photography, there's no reason to buy Canon.



Other situations may also include (a) spontaneous photos of active kids (b) macro photos of relatively active insects (e.g. in the summer or tropical countries). Personally, MILC offerings do not offer the solutions I want either because of the response time of EVF or limited macro lens solutions (let me know when you find a MILC macro lens with equivalent f > 150 mm).

So, apart from relatively inactive subjects and landscape photos, I cannot find enough reasons to buy non-Canikon stuff.


----------



## Woody (Nov 25, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Whereas Canon currently makes it better for you if you've bought expensive (large aperture) lenses, Nikon's is more rewarding if you're using teleconverters with your lens or you're focusing in very low light situations (-3EV on the D750.)



Errr... the 6D and 7D2 also AF at -3 eV... just a matter of time when all the single digit Canon DSLRs AF at -3 eV.


----------



## Omni Images (Nov 25, 2014)

So yeah .... I'd be interested in a 50mp sensor from Canon.
I made my Canon bed in the early 80's and loved laying it, and still do ... They have done everything I have wanted them to do, even though I can't always afford to have the latest and greatest.
My prints looks great on the wall blown up rather large.

Just steer this thread back a little to topic ....

I have been looking at the Pentax 645Z .. it has a 51mp sensor ...

Can anyone tell me what differences there are with a 50mp medium format size sensor compared to a 50mp 35mm size sensor.

I would assume the larger sensor would be much better ... but can you guys tell me in what areas of image quality etc it would be much better specifically.


----------



## Woody (Nov 25, 2014)

Omni Images said:


> Can anyone tell me what differences there are with a 50mp medium format size sensor compared to a 50mp 35mm size sensor.



This is not exactly what you asked for but it's close enough (50 mp MF vs 36 mp FF):

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=pentax_645z&attr13_1=nikon_d810&attr13_2=phaseone_iq180&attr13_3=sony_a7r&attr15_0=jpeg&attr15_1=jpeg&attr15_2=jpeg&attr15_3=jpeg&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=35&attr16_3=100&normalization=full&widget=1&x=0&y=0


----------



## Omni Images (Nov 25, 2014)

Thanks Woody, It's clear I had better start saving for a Phase One


----------



## Sporgon (Nov 25, 2014)

Woody said:


> Omni Images said:
> 
> 
> > Can anyone tell me what differences there are with a 50mp medium format size sensor compared to a 50mp 35mm size sensor.
> ...



When you start looking at image quality and resolution the inescapable facts are that the smaller the format the smaller the focal length lenses uses, so the lower the subject magnification and the lower the amount of light passing through the lens. For example take a 100 mm lens at f2.8. It allows five times the _volume_ of light to pass through it at the same aperture as a 24 mm lens. _Exposure_ remains the same because exposure is a function of light intensity ( I think the correct term is really density) and not total volume. 

Shoot your landscape picture on an DMF camera at say f8 on a 50 mm lens and you have _double the volume of light_ passing through the lens than you have with an APS-c camera using a 17 mm lens. So not only has your picture been captured on a larger sensor, with more magnification, it has also been recorded with twice the amount of light. The optical resolution of the lens isn't as critical either as you have more magnification. 

This is the problem with more pixels on a given sensor size. Pixels are only one part of what you need to realize full potential resolution. I guess this is why Canon haven't been in a great hurry to bring out a 'very high mp' FF sensor. Incidentally I believe this is the reason we don't see the full 'reach benefit' of crop sensors. When you are reach limited and use a crop sensor as opposed to cropping in on a FF sensor ( resulting in less 'pixels on target'), the _only_ thing you are benefiting from is more pixels. The magnification, volume of light, lens optics etc. all remain the same. So you don't realize anything like the amount you think you should. 

Now's probably not the right time to say I'm thinking of getting another 5D mark 1.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 25, 2014)

dilbert said:


> TeT said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of people wonder around taking pictures in the dark with teleconverters?
> ...



-3 EV with an f/8 lens could mean, for example, a 0.5 s exposure at ISO 102400. How rewarding do you think that would be at events or shooting at dawn or dusk? Apparently you have no comprehension of the amount of light -3 EV represents.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 25, 2014)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Yes, I know how the PDAF system works. 

You mentioned events. Do you shoot 30 s to 2 min exposures often when shooting events? It's a red herring - people touting the supposed advantage conferred by -3 EV (over the 5DIII/1D X at -2 EV) with no idea how dark that really is relative to most shooting situations. 

BTW, the 5DII's PDAF is spec'd to -0.5 EV, not -1 EV.


----------



## StudentOfLight (Nov 25, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


If my calculations are right then -3Ev is 0.3 lux. With this amount of ambient light, a "proper" ambient exposure at f/8 requires using a combination of high ISO and long shutter duration (see attached table.) For long shutter durations you might require a tripod and a relatively stationary subject. 

However:
(1) if you are using flash as your only light source in a dark environment then you could use the -3Ev to achieve autofocus while the camera shoots at a clean ISO and reasonable shutter speed. 
(2) if you are using a flash which has an AF-assist beam then you won't need -3Ev for achieving focus.

Anyway, my point is that not everyone shoots with ambient light alone, some people use a combination of ambient and flash and some use purely flash. Good specs are useful but not always necessary.


----------



## Alefoto (Nov 25, 2014)

You're blatantly ignoring the considered opinion of a lot of Canon experts: If you cannot make do with what Canon currently offers, there's something wrong with you and/or your photography.

[/quote]

This is not the point, no one questions that is the author and not the gear that produces the art... Dante did not have computer and Michelangelo used a pencil... but...
when one is investing a lot of money into a brand and its gear it's not because of a love affair and before submitting to this decision the same guy will look around to other possibilities, give them a try, and given the same amount of money invested, Nikon is clearly superior with the d810 and d750 offerings. Actually a brand new d750 can be found cheaper than a brand new 5d III... and gives back a lot more!

Canon sensors clearly have the banding problems and lower dinamic range. I do outdoor photography and I starting to look at those d810 or d750. Why? Because putting my money into them I will receive back more (more dynamic range, way better video, flat and zebra options, and so on).

Considering the 7d II just out, I do not see such great improvements giving a wait of 5 years. Just the video part and a little on the high iso range, but for the rest? 2fps and 2MP more? Oh, I am impressed!

Ok, Canon gear will give some unique options, like the TS 17mm, the MP-E 65 or the wonderful 400mm 5.6 but considering the past innovation history on cameras and their pricing I expect the new 5D IV or 6D II to be available possibly a year from now, likely more, and to be priced quite high. A better D750 is available now...


----------



## Maui5150 (Nov 25, 2014)

Alefoto said:


> Considering the 7d II just out, I do not see such great improvements giving a wait of 5 years. Just the video part and a little on the high iso range, but for the rest? 2fps and 2MP more? Oh, I am impressed!



2 FPS
Video Continuous Focus
65 Cross Type AF Points (over 300% more)
Better IQ
GPS
More color depth
Lower noise at high ISO
ISO 16000 vs 6400
Larger Resolution
Dual card slots

You don't see great improvement IN THE AREAS you want... but there are SUBSTANTIAL improvements.

The AF system on the 7D MK II is night and day to the 7D, only the 1DX really has a better AF system. Everything else had moderate boost, so it shoots faster, larger resolution, GPS, extra card slot, better high iso a little more color, etc.

7D has generally always been an Action camera.

You do not see 65 Cross Type AF Points up from 19 as a huge improvement?


----------



## gdanmitchell (Nov 25, 2014)

"That high of a pixel density will make low noise a challenge. You have to give in one area to get in another."

Ironically, people have been writing that about _every_ prospective increase in photo site density for _over a decade_ now... and it has _never been the case._ Each new generation of higher MP sensor cameras has equalled or exceeded the noise performance of the previous lower-density generation.


----------



## K-amps (Nov 25, 2014)

slclick said:


> PEOPLE!
> It's far too early for a 5DMk4, Canon is not Nikon.



Should I remove my ebay listing for my 5d3 then? :


----------



## K-amps (Nov 25, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > PEOPLE!
> ...



So am I cancelling my ebay listing or not?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 25, 2014)

Maui5150 said:


> Alefoto said:
> 
> 
> > Considering the 7d II just out, I do not see such great improvements giving a wait of 5 years. Just the video part and a little on the high iso range, but for the rest? 2fps and 2MP more? Oh, I am impressed!
> ...



Irrelevant to those who believe that sensor = camera.


----------



## Maui5150 (Nov 25, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Maui5150 said:
> 
> 
> > Alefoto said:
> ...



Hey... Look at this 13.2 DR.

Image is blurry and totally missed the focus on the shot, but look at the DR

LOL


----------



## jaayres20 (Nov 25, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



There are over 40 lenses in group A and can utilize all 61 AF points and 41 cross type sensors as well as the 5 dual cross type sensors. These lenses are Canon's performance AF lenses that need the speed and accuracy this system provides. I am not going to use a "budget" lens and complain about the AF performance. Does Nikon even have dual cross-type sensors?


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 25, 2014)

jaayres20 said:


> There are over 40 lenses in group A and can utilize all 61 AF points and 41 cross type sensors as well as the 5 dual cross type sensors. These lenses are Canon's performance AF lenses that need the speed and accuracy this system provides.



I'm all with you that the 1dx af system is great and Canon did a good job putting it in the 5d3 - and I would wish that I could afford one instead of my 6d. It's a pity they didn't manage to enable the red af points when tracking, but that probably really not deliberate, but a botch job in development. 

My simple point was that a general statement "Canon has x af points, Nikon has y" isn't valid in all case because Canon puts the lenses in groups. Which probably is a good idea so they actually work. So would you get off my back, pretty please with sugar on it  ? I am absolutely willing to sacrifice my Yongnuo rt transmitter to appease the great Canon god :->


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 25, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



When the heck did I say that? I've actually repeatedly said that you could take a billion images with a current Canon and not have the sensor matter too much at all.

(Of course it is also true that you can easily find scenarios where the Exmor would help considerably. Of course that you always try to minimize and scoff at and you attack and trash anyone who dares suggest that. Some will care about this and some won't. But if it matters to you at all, don't dare mention it near a Canon fanboys (and I sadly have to admit that Canon fanboys are way worse than Sony or Nikon fanboys; case in point on one Nikon thread a lot of D300 users were saying they wished Nikon would come out with this and that that the 72 has and guess what? it was a nice discussion and people were able to mention what they wanted, complain about what Nikon was way behind on and nobody got jumped all over by raving Nikon fanboys who had to insist that Nikon is the ultimate perfection in all.)


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 25, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Well Canon does have the nicest 24-70 2.8, 24-70 f/4 IS and 70-300 too. (perhaps this also goes for the 100-400, although I guess Nikon did come out with some sort of 80-400 relatively recently, don't know much about it though)


----------



## DominoDude (Nov 25, 2014)

Not pointing in any special direction, and I could have posted this in quite a few threads here today: But somehow I can imagine early on in the weeks that there are individuals who have had sex offerings turned down during the weekend - by both of their hands...

Don't take it out on the forums! Be civil.

And now back to the normal yada yada "You're wrong, I'm right!"


----------



## Marsu42 (Nov 25, 2014)

DominoDude said:


> And now back to the normal yada yada "You're wrong, I'm right!"



Now, I don't think any female photogs would read a thread like this up to this point, probably it's easier for them to get a life - so I feel to make a visual comment of the proceedings :->


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 25, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> When the heck did I say that?



You didn't say it. If you're unfamiliar with the meaning of the word 'implication', I suggest looking it up in a dictionary or using Google.


----------



## slclick (Nov 25, 2014)

Wow this thread has been such a sweet diversion from the Ferguson news.NOT


----------



## TeT (Nov 25, 2014)

dilbert said:


> TeT said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of people wonder around taking pictures in the dark with teleconverters?
> ...



Yes I know how to take pictures.... I was making a joke. It may or may not have been funny .... but that is inconsequential. Dont let me disturb the ongoing struggle for truth and brightness in this thread...


----------



## DavidD (Nov 25, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>The world continues to wait for Canon to jump back into the resolution race, and it looks like they will be in 2015 (though we have previously said they would in 2014). A few new mentions of a 50mp camera coming in the first half of 2015 to which there will be 2 variants. One with a low pass filter, and another without. I’m not sure Canon would get into 2 SKUs for one camera body, though they have done it for astronomy camera purposes. The camera will not be an EOS-1 style camera and would be a new camera above the 5D line. You’re free to call it the “3D”, but I’ve never been a fan of that name simply because it could be confusing to consumers.</p>



While I would have loved to have 30, 40 or 50 Canon megapixels a few years ago, I'm not sure the L lenses available in 2008-ish could adequately or comfortably resolve that much detail. 

I suspect Canon is pursuing a reasonable strategy of -- 

1. get the lenses capable of resolving 50+ mp first, 

2. then release cameras with sensors that can deliver them.


----------



## StudentOfLight (Nov 26, 2014)

DavidD said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <p>The world continues to wait for Canon to jump back into the resolution race, and it looks like they will be in 2015 (though we have previously said they would in 2014). A few new mentions of a 50mp camera coming in the first half of 2015 to which there will be 2 variants. One with a low pass filter, and another without. I’m not sure Canon would get into 2 SKUs for one camera body, though they have done it for astronomy camera purposes. The camera will not be an EOS-1 style camera and would be a new camera above the 5D line. You’re free to call it the “3D”, but I’ve never been a fan of that name simply because it could be confusing to consumers.</p>
> ...


Canon has already updated most of the L-zoom range in preparation for higher megapixels. With the 100-400mm already officially on the, we now only await the ultrawide f/2.8 zoom update. Zooms are more versatile and cater to a bigger market than primes so get priority for R&D.

Anyway, there is no need to worry. There are already many lenses in the Canon Lineup that can resolve more than 30MP and not all of them are expensive. As an example , the cheapest lens in the Canon range, the 50mm f/1.8 can resolve close to 40MP when shooting at f/5.6. The 40mm Pancake is another good performer on a tight budget. Top-of-the-line lenses like the 300mm f/2.8 and the 600mm f/4 could deliver around 50MP of detail given a 54MP sensor. 

This is not simply me pull numbers out my ass, it is based on a work in progress. I won't go into my methodology, but you could get an idea of which lenses are good for high res by looking at APS-C crops at TheDigitalPicture website. The 60D is an 18MP body, which when extrapolated to full frame is 46MP. Lenses with good corner performance on full frame hold up to the the APS-C crops. Lenses with bad Chromatic Aberration and soft corners on full frame are not "future proof" and will likely be replaced in the next couple of years.


----------



## NancyP (Nov 26, 2014)

I remember how many complaints there were at first about the D800 and increased need for good lenses and better technique.


----------



## Alefoto (Nov 27, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Maui5150 said:
> 
> 
> > Alefoto said:
> ...



I know there have been improvements, of course there have been! Ok, more and better AF points and some other improvements which I can notice. What I was talking about is image quality only. The AF will give you a in focus or not in focus shot, not better or lower image quality. For even less money Nikon cameras give you more. This is quite simple. Just look at all the examples on line of severely underexposed pictures with the last d810 or d750 and how they can handle a 3-5 stops push. Nowdays almost every camera has a decent AF system.
The idea I have is that on the 7d vs 7dii there is no major improvement but instead are several minor ones, the best of which is AF (the same as was with the 5D II vs 5D III...).
This, its high price tag, the fact these improvements took 5 years lead me to think that also the 5D IV will not have major improvements and things like 4k video, +35 Mp sensors, lack of OLPF filter, some nice video options are still way far. And they will be priced high.


----------



## e17paul (Nov 27, 2014)

StudentOfLight said:


> While I would have loved to have 30, 40 or 50 Canon megapixels a few years ago, I'm not sure the L lenses available in 2008-ish could adequately or comfortably resolve that much detail.
> 
> I suspect Canon is pursuing a reasonable strategy of --
> 
> ...


Canon has already updated most of the L-zoom range in preparation for higher megapixels. With the 100-400mm already officially on the, we now only await the ultrawide f/2.8 zoom update. Zooms are more versatile and cater to a bigger market than primes so get priority for R&D.

Anyway, there is no need to worry. There are already many lenses in the Canon Lineup that can resolve more than 30MP and not all of them are expensive. As an example , the cheapest lens in the Canon range, the 50mm f/1.8 can resolve close to 40MP when shooting at f/5.6. The 40mm Pancake is another good performer on a tight budget. Top-of-the-line lenses like the 300mm f/2.8 and the 600mm f/4 could deliver around 50MP of detail given a 54MP sensor. 

This is not simply me pull numbers out my ass, it is based on a work in progress. I won't go into my methodology, but you could get an idea of which lenses are good for high res by looking at APS-C crops at TheDigitalPicture website. The 60D is an 18MP body, which when extrapolated to full frame is 46MP. Lenses with good corner performance on full frame hold up to the the APS-C crops. Lenses with bad Chromatic Aberration and soft corners on full frame are not "future proof" and will likely be replaced in the next couple of years.
[/quote]

That sounds like a good objective assessment of the practical issues. I'm expecting the remaining older L prime lenses (the 35 & 50) to be updated soon. It also tallies with word from a professional photographer that there is a high megapixel camera in the wild being tested, but will not be released until the full range of lenses is ready for it. I'm also hoping for replacements to the non-L 20mm and 50mm lenses amongst others. But as noted, zooms are the bigger market, and what I would choose if I had to shoot professionally under pressure.

A high 50MP sensor would give scope for a crop mode, as found on Nikon cameras. A 1.4x crop would give a 25MP image, and a 2x crop would give a 12MP image. That would be a great way to give extra reach to my 70-300L

What is bound to disappoint is the frame rate on a 50MP camera. There will be just too much data for the electronic bus to allow the 10 frames per second of the 7D2. Yet again, not everyone will be happy! Though in the next few years card and processor speeds will increase to alleviate that limitation of current electronics.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 27, 2014)

Alefoto said:


> I know there have been improvements, of course there have been! Ok, more and better AF points and some other improvements which I can notice. What I was talking about is image quality only. The AF will give you a in focus or not in focus shot, not better or lower image quality.



I see...so, a blurry shot with more DR has better image quality than a crisply focused shot with less DR. Right. :




Alefoto said:


> For even less money Nikon cameras give you more. This is quite simple. Just look at all the examples on line of severely underexposed pictures with the last d810 or d750 and how they can handle a 3-5 stops push.



I'd like a hammer that automatically straightens bent nails as I pound them in. Until then, I'll just hit them squarely so they don't bend in the first place.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 27, 2014)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Alefoto said:
> ...



There are other ways to adjust DR. Does the DR adjustment ring on SoNikon cameras go all the way to infinity like the focus ring? :


----------



## Orangutan (Nov 27, 2014)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > I see...so, a blurry shot with more DR has better image quality than a crisply focused shot with less DR. Right. :
> ...



dilbert, there's an implicit assumption in your comment: you assume that everyone's shooting needs and style are comparable to yours. Many people rely on AF which has generally been superior in the Canon line. I've not used the D810, but most reports indicate that it's much improved. This should tell you that even Nikon shooters wanted better AF with their Sony sensors.

For someone who shoots moving subjects and relies on AF, no amount of DR will make up for it.

For someone who shoots still life, landscape, architecture, etc, no amount of AF or DR will make up for lack of needed lenses.

Question to you, dilbert: do you ever shoot moving subjects? Do you MF everything?


----------



## Alefoto (Nov 27, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Alefoto said:
> 
> 
> > I know there have been improvements, of course there have been! Ok, more and better AF points and some other improvements which I can notice. What I was talking about is image quality only. The AF will give you a in focus or not in focus shot, not better or lower image quality.
> ...



You can compare crisp shots with out of focus shots and more DR with less DR.
In order to judge better the image quality of a sensor, you need to use it with the best glass you can, and guess what... most of the top lenses are all manual focus: the Zeiss 135, the 2 Otus ones, Voigtlander 125, Coastal Optics 60, Leica Apo 280, 180, 100, and others.
That's why I don't see the 7D II AF as a major improvement, but just as a "better than normal 2014 AF system". It would have been imbarassing if it was not improved.

Anyway, most of this assumptions are quite personal and based on personal experience and opinions.


----------



## Orangutan (Nov 27, 2014)

Alefoto said:


> You can compare crisp shots with out of focus shots and more DR with less DR.
> In order to judge better the image quality of a sensor, you need to use it with the best glass you can, and guess what... most of the top lenses are all manual focus: the Zeiss 135, the 2 Otus ones, Voigtlander 125, Coastal Optics 60, Leica Apo 280, 180, 100, and others.
> That's why I don't see the 7D II AF as a major improvement, but just as a "better than normal 2014 AF system". It would have been imbarassing if it was not improved.
> 
> Anyway, most of this assumptions are quite personal and based on personal experience and opinions.



I think that's the point, here: which aspect of a camera system is most important depends on how you use the system. If you do only one type of photography, e.g. landscape, that's limited by low-ISO IQ, then you should choose your system for that. If you're a sports photographer, then AF and lens selection may be more important. Those, such as myself, who dabble in a variety of subjects need to choose a system that balances our needs and budget. The entire question of which is the best sensor, though not meaningless, can't really be addressed without discussing the way the camera will be used.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 27, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> The entire question of which is the best sensor, though not meaningless, can't really be addressed without discussing the way the camera will be used.



+1

It's really the performance of the system measured against one's individual needs. It's also important to keep in mind that while there are differences among current sensors, all of them are capable of delivering excellent IQ, which means for many use cases the differences aren't nearly as important as other aspects of system performance.


----------



## Harv (Nov 27, 2014)

Alefoto said:


> For even less money Nikon cameras give you more. This is quite simple. Just look at all the examples on line of severely underexposed pictures with the last d810 or d750 and how they can handle a 3-5 stops push.



Well, that's great news for a photographer with the skill level that constantly underexposes images 3-5 stops. 

Sorry, I just had to.


----------



## dgatwood (Nov 28, 2014)

Harv said:


> Alefoto said:
> 
> 
> > For even less money Nikon cameras give you more. This is quite simple. Just look at all the examples on line of severely underexposed pictures with the last d810 or d750 and how they can handle a 3-5 stops push.
> ...



Or a camera that consistently mis-meters images by 3–5 stops. 

Extra headroom and footroom is nice when you're working outside, shooting stage plays, etc., but I'm struggling to think of a situation where I'd need five stops of either one. Three, on occasion, usually involving a mistake on my part....


----------



## Orangutan (Nov 28, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert, there's an implicit assumption in your comment: you assume that everyone's shooting needs and style are comparable to yours. Many people rely on AF which has generally been superior in the Canon line. I've not used the D810, but most reports indicate that it's much improved. This should tell you that even Nikon shooters wanted better AF with their Sony sensors.
> ...


That depends on what you mean by "canvas:" I've read plenty by sports photographers, both pro and amateur, who rely on AF, and could not do what they do exclusively using MF. I've read a number of pieces by landscape and architectural photographers who refuse to leave Canon because of the quality of Canon's TS lenses, despite their acknowledgements of the advantages of Sony sensors. Have I actually run a scientific survey of these different sub-disciplines? No, of course not. Am I relying on my own personal experience? No, I'm relying on what others have written about their needs and experiences.



> > Question to you, dilbert: do you ever shoot moving subjects? Do you MF everything?
> 
> 
> Of my last 3 outings to take photos totalling 7 days of photography, MF comprised 100%



Then AF has little value for you, and you should choose a camera system based on other criteria that match your shooting style. My guess is that you're very unusual in this regard, and most people use AF quite a bit. While I don't have direct evidence for this, it's a reasonable inference based on the fact that every major review of a new camera body will spend substantial amount of space discussing AF. Also, as I noted above, the Nikon D810 has a much improved AF system over the D800, which wasn't bad. This also implies strongly that "the market" is full of buyers who want AF.

I certainly will not say that the desire for more DR is invalid -- I'd love to have more of it in my Canon bodies. However, it's not the only factor, nor even the primary factor, that makes an image a "keeper." For a minority of photographers, possibly including yourself, it may make the difference between an image you like and one you don't.


----------



## sanj (Nov 28, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



In my lifelong outings to take photos totaling 100s of days, MF comprised 1% of the shots I took and quite often I am busy taking SHARP pictures, catching the moment, enjoying the setting and not wasting time over tables. Having said that, yes I would prefer better low ISO DR in Canon cameras.


----------



## scyrene (Nov 29, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



So you admit your style of photography is pretty unusual? How many people don't use AF at all?


----------



## KingTut (Dec 3, 2014)

The way chip development works is you spend A LOT of time developing individual circuits, and then reuse as much as you can. An indivdual pixel sensor/amp/readout takes a lot engineering and must be reused. So, if you just scale the 7DII up to FF, you get 53 megapixels (double the 1.6 factor for area). Same size pixel electronics as the 7D, just more of them. This would explain the delay in getting 7DII out: they were really developing the high MP FF, but used the 7D to work out the bugs. 5DmIV would make sense, but so too would a 1DX replacement. Both Sony & Nikon have 36MP cameras, and smaller profile cameras (like micro 4/3s) are approaching 20+MP. Canon really needs to respond.


----------

