# MP-E 65mm - High Difficulty Level



## Sabaki (Nov 25, 2016)

Man! Am I equal parts excited and frustrated by this lens!

I've read the reviews saying how difficult it is to use this lens at higher magnifications, reading that the viewfinder gets darker and small movements are massively exaggerated.

I thought I was prepared. lol I fooled myself ;D

I've now decided to work with magnifications no higher than 2.5X until I have worked out the muscle memory needed to wield the camera but I'd much appreciate some advise if anybody is willing to teach me.

My subject matter are insects, shot handheld like I do with my 100L. 

And BIG respect to those of you who have taken pin sharp photos of live insects at 5X magnification

Thanks everyone


----------



## j-nord (Nov 25, 2016)

I've never done "real" macro work with 1x+ mag but I think typically they do one of the following:

1) focus rails + focus stacking
2) the above + flash
3) handheld + flash

In my limited experience I found flash was key in getting sharp handheld shots when shooting extremely close. Flash is faster than a shutter. I assume you aren't using flash since you didn't mention it.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 25, 2016)

Flash is definitely key for handheld insect shooting. With the MP-E 65, I usually use Live View. Pick a magnification, rock back and forth to focus. 

"_Mantis_"



EOS 1D X, MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro @ ~3x, 1/250 s, f/14, ISO 400, MT-24EX


"_Tiny Hopper_"



EOS 5D Mark II, MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro @ 3.5x, 1/60 s, f/14, ISO 400, MT-24EX


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 25, 2016)

Trying to handhold a camera at high magnifications is indeed frustrating. if possible, use at least a monopod to help brace the camera. A sturdy tripod is best, but not always possible.


----------



## Sabaki (Nov 26, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback everybody! Really appreciate it


----------



## Sabaki (Nov 26, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Flash is definitely key for handheld insect shooting. With the MP-E 65, I usually use Live View. Pick a magnification, rock back and forth to focus.
> 
> "_Mantis_"
> 
> ...



Thanks for the LiveView tip, I've been trying through my viewfinder and it's way hard than using the 100 L. I'll invest some of my practise time into familiarizing myself with your technique.

Here's my first okay shot with the MP-E 65

Canon 7Dii + Canon MP-E65 + Canon MR-14-EX | ISO 400 | SS 1/250 | 2.5X magnification (est)


----------



## EvvPhotog (Dec 1, 2016)

Flash is a must with that lens. I have found a Yongnuo ring flash (not LED) that works a treat. The attached image was at 5:1 handheld, but I usually prop the end of the ring flash on something and rock the camera until I see the eye come in focus and snap. The other key is to take as many photos as you can (not always easy with insects though).

I almost sold the lens after having it for a year and never really getting good results. Finally took the time to learn the lens and technique and now it's one of my favorite lenses and macro work has become my second favorite type of photography. Have fun!


----------



## YellowJersey (Dec 2, 2016)

I remember playing with this monster when I worked in a camera shop. It is, indeed, an insanely difficult lens to wield. I'd recommend a tripod and sliders. God only knows how you're doing it hand held!


----------



## LesC (Dec 4, 2016)

EvvPhotog said:


> Flash is a must with that lens. I have found a Yongnuo ring flash (not LED) that works a treat.



Is it this one?


----------



## Sabaki (Dec 4, 2016)

Guys, I'm shooting at f/8.0, should I change to f/16 instead?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Dec 4, 2016)

Sabaki said:


> Guys, I'm shooting at f/8.0, should I change to f/16 instead?



I usually shoot at f/14.


----------



## Sabaki (Dec 4, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, I'm shooting at f/8.0, should I change to f/16 instead?
> ...



Thanks Neuro


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 4, 2016)

I'd prefer a macro flash with two heads to a ring light. That way, you can control the output of each and avoid the "Flat" look from a ring light. Shadows actually can add to a photo if you control them.

If you are looking for low price, I've seen some good comments about this one from Venus Optics a few months ago. You might want to search again. Search for Venus Optics (Laowa) Kuangren KX800 Macro Twin Flash


----------



## rfdesigner (Dec 4, 2016)

I've never done macro, but I have done astrophotography.. and focussing/target finding is a similar nightmare.

In astrophotography the real solution is to teather.. you can then focus being able to identify individual pixels, you can target find with noise supression techniques (binning in astro) allowing you to see things totally invisible through the viewfinder.

a steady mount + USB cable may be all you need.


----------



## Don Haines (Dec 5, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'd prefer a macro flash with two heads to a ring light. That way, you can control the output of each and avoid the "Flat" look from a ring light. Shadows actually can add to a photo if you control them.
> 
> If you are looking for low price, I've seen some good comments about this one from Venus Optics a few months ago. You might want to search again. Search for Venus Optics (Laowa) Kuangren KX800 Macro Twin Flash


That is one cool looking flash! From the looks of it, it must be great for ant photography


----------



## Zeidora (Dec 5, 2016)

Sabaki said:


> Guys, I'm shooting at f/8.0, should I change to f/16 instead?



Depends on what you want and at what magnification you shoot. The MP-E 65 adjusts the physical f-stop, but due to the extension of the helicoid, light scatters further and the effective f-stop at the sensor is quite a bit larger:
f-effective = f-stop-lens x (magnification +1).
so at 5x, your f/8 becomes f/8x(5+1) = f/8x6 = f/48
f/16 it becomes f/96.
Depending on how you want to show your work, this may lead to significant diffraction blur. But if you need/want the depth of field, you may chose to live with the blur. If you want a small 2x3" image, you can stop down to your heart's content. If you want to enlarge to about 8x10", then effective f-stop f/32 is about the max you want to permit. If larger print formats, then smaller number f/stop.

For maximum sharpness, you shoot at either f/2.8 or f/4. There is quite a bit of copy variation in the MP-E 65. Mine is sharpest at f/2.8 and that is what I use when I stack. I ran tests from 1:1 to 5:1 and for every magnification, f/2.8 was sharper. Very easy to see once you blow the images up on screen.

The MP-E 65 is a high delete-rate lens hand-held. Shoot lots, delete most, and hopefully you will get a couple of keepers. For terrestrial arthropods, I will easily shoot 50, toss 48. The biggest limiting factor for the shooting speed is the recharge rate of the flash. Bracing techniques will help with higher keeper rates. Try to have as many contact points of your body with solid surfaces, or with your own body (elbow along chest, or on knee while sitting on ground). Wear old clothes.

Attached a crab spider _Misumena vatia_, handheld, about 2-3:1, in Southern California chaparral.


----------



## Sabaki (Dec 5, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'd prefer a macro flash with two heads to a ring light. That way, you can control the output of each and avoid the "Flat" look from a ring light. Shadows actually can add to a photo if you control them.
> 
> If you are looking for low price, I've seen some good comments about this one from Venus Optics a few months ago. You might want to search again. Search for Venus Optics (Laowa) Kuangren KX800 Macro Twin Flash



Thank you Spokane 

I had the fullest intention to pick up a MT-24EX but after chatting with Dalentech for a while, he advised me to play the waiting game and see if Canon releases a mark ii with better diffusion potential and I've taken that advice.

The ringlight is just to direct and gives a harsh quality to the images that I am not happy with so I will eventually replace it.

But for now, it's all about getting familiar with the MP-E 65. I've limited the magnification to a maximum of 2x for now.


----------



## Sabaki (Dec 5, 2016)

Zeidora said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, I'm shooting at f/8.0, should I change to f/16 instead?
> ...



This is interesting! I'll go take some shots off of my tripod and work out at which aperture my lens works best. I was getting this weird blurring that I'm not sure may actually be diffraction. Thanks!

I've posted before about an Australian who does focus stacking on live peacock jumping spiders.

I asked him how he manages this and he says he uses a battery pack and 'walks' into the subject whilst firing off 10 shots in quick succession. I think this may actually be a very good practise and I'll pick up a battery pack in a few months.

Thanks for the feedback, really appreciate it


----------



## EvvPhotog (Dec 5, 2016)

LesC said:


> EvvPhotog said:
> 
> 
> > Flash is a must with that lens. I have found a Yongnuo ring flash (not LED) that works a treat.
> ...



Yeap! That's the one. Someone mentioned flat light, which can be an issue on larger subjects, but with this flash you can set the ratio for each side. When something is the size of an ant, for example, having one side of the ring flash brighter than the other adds depth and shadows. I rather love the light actually. Can't beat the price either.


----------



## LesC (Dec 5, 2016)

Thanks - think I'll give it go then


----------



## Zeidora (Dec 6, 2016)

Sabaki said:


> I've posted before about an Australian who does focus stacking on live peacock jumping spiders.
> 
> I asked him how he manages this and he says he uses a battery pack and 'walks' into the subject whilst firing off 10 shots in quick succession. I think this may actually be a very good practise and I'll pick up a battery pack in a few months.



10 shots is not that many for z-stacking at >>1:1. Jumping spiders are rather small (~ 5 mm body length, twice that with legs, so about 3:1 mag for covering entire image on FF body). At f/2.8 and 3:1 step-size at 70% of DOF is about 52 µm. Assuming that spider is about as deep as wide, then you will need 100–200 frames for a full stack. If you use the f-effective/32 rule, then you can set f/8, get step size of ~150 µm, and you "only" need 30 frames or so. To get close to 5 mm depth of field with 10 shots, you have to set f/22 = effective f/88, with step size of 411 µm.

It's kind of scary and awesome to play around with it.


----------



## Sabaki (Dec 6, 2016)

Zeidora said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > I've posted before about an Australian who does focus stacking on live peacock jumping spiders.
> ...



Here's a shot of Michael's. I'm quite impressed and want to replicate the technique for similar results


----------



## Gongedan (Dec 19, 2016)

Wow, his macros of those Peacock spiders are really stunning. I wasn't aware spiders with such beautiful colours even exist!


----------



## Diko (Jan 16, 2017)

Sabaki said:


> Here's a shot of Michael's. I'm quite impressed and want to replicate the technique for similar results


 Michael Doe - just saw another pic of his of this cute little colorfull fella. His photos are amazing indeed. 

This tech with the stack photos. I know it, but haven't tried it yet.


----------



## scottburgess (Jan 16, 2017)

The lens is not that hard to use. A decent workflow makes a huge difference. What is described here works well for 10X microscope objectives, too, which can be mounted on a filter ring using a regular lens as a tube lens.

First, definitely start by using a tripod as hand held is ridiculously hit-or-miss. Learn what _working distance_ is relative to magnification (I posted a quick guide on photomacrography.net, search for my scottburgess handle there around June 2013). Center the lens and camera on a rail on the tripod. Decide the approach vector and framing of your subject. Match the framing to the appropriate sized colored rectangle on the quick guide, which tells you how to set the magnification on the lens. Place the tripod from the chosen approach vector as close to the given working distance from the subject as possible--the guide has working distance too. Then slide the lens a tiny bit along the rail to focus. After a little practice, this will become reasonably fast to step through. Because you've got the entire tripod almost correctly placed to begin with you won't have problems with heavy gear cantilevered away from the center of gravity which causes the whole mess to sink in some odd direction or vibrate uncontrollably when the shutter trips.

Second, depth of field is very limited due to diffraction. At higher magnifications like 4X and 5X, f/2.8 - f/4 is about all you have to work with, and the DOF is in fractions of a millimeter. So think in terms of flat plane slices when composing. Sometimes it is better to shoot at lower magnification and crop. 

Diffraction can also be challenging if you work with small pixel bodies. Don't toss that old digital body because it has "too few" pixels!

You will need to use a flash for live critters (and I often use rear curtain sync). There are some challenges as real critters won't tolerate the flash much. Also, the Canon ring flash is not canted on the interior of the ring so it lacks some coverage at 5X. 

Occasionally I use a small light tent to control wind when working in the field. I've done macro work in bright daylight and 20mph wind gusts, with the tent yielding soft light on subject and a black backdrop. Or green, or white! Glorious!

I know some people are mentioning focus stacking, but I recommend against investing in that until you're comfortable using the lens and are confident that further work with it will be a significant part of your portfolio. Focus stacking adds some complexity and cost to the proposition, and I find it easier to work with in a studio setup that I've built than in the field.

I love this lens. It definitely rewards those who work steadily and patiently with wondrous images of things not visible to the naked eye. My eyes are starting to get old enough that I am considering doing more of my work with it tethered to a laptop, but that's what the years do to you.

That's a quick summary of what you really need to know to work with this lens. I hope this helps, and good luck!

Should I add that refurbished units are on sale in the Canon shop, at $755? Oh, of course I should!  The GAS made me do it!


----------

