# Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.



## ritholtz (Mar 15, 2018)

Hi,
I am going to shoot some pics during karate games for friend. I did took some pictures before in similar circumstances once with 70d and 80d. I used Tv mode with auto ISO using 70D. I think, I used M mode with auto ISO using 80D. I can stop down lens by 1/3 stop with M mode instead of wide open ( as in TV mode) which helps with IQ. 

My best pics are with 70d and Canon 85mm. Unfortunately, I do not have 85mm anymore. I have SL2 now. My existing lens are Canon 50mm, Sigma 17-50mm and 105mm. I used Servo mode with Auto all focus points. with SL2, I might not be able to use similar AF modes. Any suggestions to shoot moving subjects with SL2 and how to cope with just 9 AF points. I can shoot in M mode using EC with auto ISO. That will help me to adjust exposure with white back ground. My both Sigma lens are calibrated with SL2. Hopefully, there wont be any focusing issues.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 15, 2018)

I use live view with my SL2 whenever I can. Lots and lots of AF points and tracking is good, but not great. Lack of light can be a issue with a crop camera.


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## mb66energy (Mar 15, 2018)

Maybe I am wrong because I do not know karate sports exactly: I think you have very fast situations and some motionless situations while both "fighters" are going through the next steps. Her two ideas:

ADD: Just seen that Mt. Spokane made a similar proposal:
Do you have tried DPAF with tracking for your purpose? In Macro photography it is a true gem when a plant is shaking in the wind. If DPAF with tracking is predictive (I think it is) it can do the math to extrapolate the motion of the subject in focus until the shutter is activated. And shaking plants in macro at f/5.6 are a true challenge because of the very thin DOF.

Manual pre-focus could be an option if you can extrapolate where the actors are when you want the shot. The screen of the SL2 is very good for manual focusing (for a screen without microprism or split image indicator) - if you have contrasty subjects and enough light. But I had 20 years of MF experience before I bought my first AF camera in 2005, so maybe a lot of neurons in my brain are trained good enough.


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## ritholtz (Mar 15, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I use live view with my SL2 whenever I can. Lots and lots of AF points and tracking is good, but not great. Lack of light can be a issue with a crop camera.


Thanks for the information. I never used servo tracking with live view. I will check the manual for settings. I might need to buy backup battery a well. There will be a good light for the eye. But fast shutter speeds is going to be a problem with crop. With fast shutter speed (1/800) and f/2, iso's are around 3200. I no longer have 85mm. I end up using Sigma 105mm f2.8 lens. With live view, light is going to be a problem.


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## ritholtz (Mar 15, 2018)

mb66energy said:


> Maybe I am wrong because I do not know karate sports exactly: I think you have very fast situations and some motionless situations while both "fighters" are going through the next steps. Her two ideas:
> 
> ADD: Just seen that Mt. Spokane made a similar proposal:
> Do you have tried DPAF with tracking for your purpose? In Macro photography it is a true gem when a plant is shaking in the wind. If DPAF with tracking is predictive (I think it is) it can do the math to extrapolate the motion of the subject in focus until the shutter is activated. And shaking plants in macro at f/5.6 are a true challenge because of the very thin DOF.
> ...


I can buy one back up battery for SL2 and try Live view tracking. It is going to be very casual photography with kids participating. I just need to get some photos during action and award presentations. 
If I am going to use VF, Is it good idea to just use center point and fallow players. With 105mm, I can fill in players inside the frame. With all points auto servo mode, not sure if SL2 can handle like 70d/80d who has lot of AF points. I have nifty fifly (older one without stm), which is also slow focusing.


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## michi (Mar 15, 2018)

Which 50mm do you have? 1.8, 1.4? I would be tempted to say to use that, and if you are a little further away, just crop later. But the light advantage will give you shorter shutter speeds which may be crucial in fast moving action. (If you are really far away from the action, then the 50 won't work obviously.)

Unless they use spot lights, I would assume that lighting will be very even and you could probably get away with just using M mode. Take some test shots, and when you are happy with the exposure, leave it there. I would use the highest ISO you are willing to use with the SL2. Probably around 1600 or 3200. Then go from there with the lens wide open or one stop down if you want to bump the lens' performance.

Now you just have to worry about AF. I'm not that familiar with the SL2 and I see others made good recommendations, so I'll leave it at that.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 16, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I use live view with my SL2 whenever I can. Lots and lots of AF points and tracking is good, but not great. Lack of light can be a issue with a crop camera.
> ...



Live view does not affect the light situation, its the lens and the camera body. It cost less to upgrade cameras than to get a expensive ultra fast lens. The SL2 can do ISO 3200 pretty well, but DR can be a issue, you need accurate exposure. With a FF body, ISO 3200 is a breeze.


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## ritholtz (Mar 16, 2018)

michi said:


> Which 50mm do you have? 1.8, 1.4? I would be tempted to say to use that, and if you are a little further away, just crop later. But the light advantage will give you shorter shutter speeds which may be crucial in fast moving action. (If you are really far away from the action, then the 50 won't work obviously.)
> 
> Unless they use spot lights, I would assume that lighting will be very even and you could probably get away with just using M mode. Take some test shots, and when you are happy with the exposure, leave it there. I would use the highest ISO you are willing to use with the SL2. Probably around 1600 or 3200. Then go from there with the lens wide open or one stop down if you want to bump the lens' performance.
> 
> Now you just have to worry about AF. I'm not that familiar with the SL2 and I see others made good recommendations, so I'll leave it at that.


I have old nifty fifty (f1.8 ) with plastic mount. I think, its AF is worse than Sigma. My options are using Sigma 17-50mm and 105mm. Sigma 17-50mm is pretty good wide open at 50mm. I can use them both wide open (50mm and 105mm). I will be very close to action. 50mm is enough with crop and I can use 17mm for taking presentation pictures. I got them calibrated from Sigma recently. I am also checking for used Canon 85mm 1.8.


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## ritholtz (Mar 16, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...


I will be using veryr high iso (3200 or 6400) in order to use high SS. How does view finder shooting compare with live view. Not sure if i can select AF point other than center point. Or I can just use all 9 AF points with Servo tracking and see how it works. I need to look for used 6D to upgrade camera and need lens like 24-105mm and 85mm prime. I will planning to play around with SL2 little bit over weekend and see how it goes.
Thanks for the information.


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## slclick (Mar 16, 2018)

Not owning one, what does Sport method utilize? Is it Servo tracking and Program Mode in Jpeg?


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## Valvebounce (Mar 16, 2018)

Hi Ritholtz. 
I don’t know the 6D but looking at the specs it only has 11 af points, and no dual pixel live view, it looks a lot like out of the frying pan and into the fire! 
As for the rest of the camera I’m sure it is a vast improvement over the SL2. 

Cheers, Graham. 



ritholtz said:


> I will be using veryr high iso (3200 or 6400) in order to use high SS. How does view finder shooting compare with live view. Not sure if i can select AF point other than center point. Or I can just use all 9 AF points with Servo tracking and see how it works. I need to look for used 6D to upgrade camera and need lens like 24-105mm and 85mm prime. I will planning to play around with SL2 little bit over weekend and see how it goes.
> Thanks for the information.


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## ritholtz (Mar 17, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Ritholtz.
> I don’t know the 6D but looking at the specs it only has 11 af points, and no dual pixel live view, it looks a lot like out of the frying pan and into the fire!
> As for the rest of the camera I’m sure it is a vast improvement over the SL2.
> 
> ...


6d will help me with high ISO. Not sure about tracking improvement over 6d2. You are right about sl2 live view tracking capabilities. I checked DPR review. They also mentioned about using live view tracking using live+face tracking option instead of view finder tracking. But in my little experience with SL2, view finder shooting is instantaneous and quick over live view.


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## ritholtz (Mar 17, 2018)

slclick said:


> Not owning one, what does Sport method utilize? Is it Servo tracking and Program Mode in Jpeg?


I guess sport mode push up shutter speeds compared to normal auto mode. SL2 has auto iso in M mode. I can use M mode and have control over shutter, aperture and EC.


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## ritholtz (Mar 19, 2018)

DPR suggested to use live view during servo tracking. Then what is the point of buying DSLR. Servo tracking suppose to be strengths of DSLR. If we are going to use live view with DSLR, I should be buying one of M.


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## Valvebounce (Mar 19, 2018)

Hi ritholtz. 
To be fair you ask how to use the gear you have to the best effect, you get a suggestion and query it, would it have been more relevant to suggest you get a 7DII or 1DxII instead? No as that won’t help you track with an SL2 whereas using live view might! 

Cheers, Graham. 



ritholtz said:


> DPR suggested to use live view during servo tracking. Then what is the point of buying DSLR. Servo tracking suppose to be strengths of DSLR. If we are going to use live view with DSLR, I should be buying one of M.


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## slclick (Mar 19, 2018)

I would think you are going to get good, not great results with an SL2 if you have a great technique. Akin to BIF with a 6D and a Sigma 150-600. The machine isn't geared towards those styles of shooting but you will get some keepers with a keen skillset. Once again, if they could do it with film....yadda yadda yadda


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## Iago (Mar 19, 2018)

Assume to location will have low / bad light. If you have not been to this competition before, how close you are going to get is unknown. I think that will affect your lens choice. There will be a mat / ring and the higher the rank, the faster they will move, the farther they will move 5ft to 15ft. Watch out for mirrors, I have had the camera miss focus and hit on the reflection. There may be several group photos as well. Sparring will be fast, forms/ kata may fallow a pattern ( strike / pause / strike / pause )
Suggestions
Fast zoom lens (May need to rent) maybe the 50-100 f1.8 sigma or 24 -70 f2.8
Single focus point
AI servo
Back button focus.
Shoot in RAW
Shutter priority 1/160 to 1/200 (Little motion Blur)


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 19, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > ritholtz said:
> ...



With the sl2 in live view, just touch the place on the lcd where you want focus and it focuses very fast. Then, it will track as long as the subject is large enough. You can set the camera to focus and shoot the spot you touch, or just focus on that spot and begin tracking. Face recognition plus tracking can be used, the camera needs to be stable though.


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## jd7 (Mar 19, 2018)

Iago said:


> Assume to location will have low / bad light. If you have not been to this competition before, how close you are going to get is unknown. I think that will affect your lens choice. There will be a mat / ring and the higher the rank, the faster they will move, the farther they will move 5ft to 15ft. Watch out for mirrors, I have had the camera miss focus and hit on the reflection. There may be several group photos as well. Sparring will be fast, forms/ kata may fallow a pattern ( strike / pause / strike / pause )
> Suggestions
> Fast zoom lens (May need to rent) maybe the 50-100 f1.8 sigma or 24 -70 f2.8
> Single focus point
> ...



I have not used the SL2 but I have a 6D, and the AF systems seems to have some similarities, ie the peripheral AF points are line sensors, with only the centre point being cross-type (and the 6D gets an extra vertical line sensor with f/2.8 and wider aperture lenses).

If I was using my 6D, I would largely agree with what lago has said. I doubt you would have much luck with the peripheral AF points. However I would add:

make sure you pre-focus - you don't want the lens to have to change focus by much when you want to take a shot. In fact, consider taking some shots where you pre-focus on a point and wait for the action to come to that point (ie manual focus)

when you are using AF, start the AF system before you are ready to take the shot, ie give the AF system time to start tracking your subject (remembering that if you only have the centre AF point active, you will need to keep it over your subject) for a few moments before you take the shot

if you are using a lens with IS/OS, turn it off or else make sure it is active well before you are ready to the take the shot so the system has time to sort itself out (although a recent article has suggested that with Sigma's OS, you need to do that even if you have OS off)

don't rule out using your 50 f/1.8. Shooting it at f/2 will give you an extra stop over either of your Sigma lenses, and help you keep your ISO down a bit. That assumes 50mm will get you close enough for decent photos (but remember you can crop a bit later). It also assumes you won't be so close that 50mm at f/2 will give you such a shallow DOF that you don't have much chance to get action shots in focus, although even then I would try at least a few shots like that given it sounds like you will be shooting in pretty dim light and you need a fast shutter time.

I wonder whether 1/200th will be fast enough to stop the action, but I don't have experience with martial arts specifically so I'm happy to defer to lago on that.

I see other people have suggested using liveview. As I said I don't have any experience with the SL2 so I cannot comment on that. It may be it is the way to go. Otherwise, though, I'd go with the above approach.


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## ritholtz (Mar 20, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi ritholtz.
> To be fair you ask how to use the gear you have to the best effect, you get a suggestion and query it, would it have been more relevant to suggest you get a 7DII or 1DxII instead? No as that won’t help you track with an SL2 whereas using live view might!
> 
> Cheers, Graham.
> ...


Thanks Graham. I bought 80d and downgraded to SL2. Size was one of the reason. 80d felt too big for me.


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## ritholtz (Mar 20, 2018)

slclick said:


> I would think you are going to get good, not great results with an SL2 if you have a great technique. Akin to BIF with a 6D and a Sigma 150-600. The machine isn't geared towards those styles of shooting but you will get some keepers with a keen skillset. Once again, if they could do it with film....yadda yadda yadda


Tried some tracking with soccer game using Sigma 105mm. I didn't understand what was going with focusing system using bbf, ai-servo and all AF points (auto). It doesn't show active focus points by blinking while tracking. SL2 has very bad bbf buttons. Canon hid them into the frame. What happens if I track a subject using shutter button. I guess, I won't be able to continuously track subject right ( with full shutter button stopping tracking)?.


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## ritholtz (Mar 20, 2018)

Iago said:


> Assume to location will have low / bad light. If you have not been to this competition before, how close you are going to get is unknown. I think that will affect your lens choice. There will be a mat / ring and the higher the rank, the faster they will move, the farther they will move 5ft to 15ft. Watch out for mirrors, I have had the camera miss focus and hit on the reflection. There may be several group photos as well. Sparring will be fast, forms/ kata may fallow a pattern ( strike / pause / strike / pause )
> Suggestions
> Fast zoom lens (May need to rent) maybe the 50-100 f1.8 sigma or 24 -70 f2.8
> Single focus point
> ...


Thanks Iago for the information. I have sigma 17-50mm and 105mm. I did this once before using Canon 85mm/Sigma 17-50mm with 70d. I was able to use servo tracking with all AF points. 70d has a option to start from AF point close to the face. There do some fights and some just skills. I was using SS around 1/500 to 1/800 for fights. Do you think, 1/200 is going to be fine? This is very casual activity done in small school indoor places. I am just trying to understand this tracking stuff. I was able to do ok with 70d and Canon 85mm. It was always able to find some player or gloves. I was using 1/800 and high iso.


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## Valvebounce (Mar 20, 2018)

Hi ritholtz. 
I should have added that Angela has the 100D (SL1) which she has used for motor racing and even with relatively slow (55-250 non STM) moving lenses had reasonable success tracking approaching cars so I would hope that the SL2 would be somewhat better if paired with lenses that can move focus more quickly. I know karate has a very different movement profile from motor racing. 
Angela didn’t get to try her new 55-250 STM Lens this year as it was snowing at the races and she preferred not to risk ruining the “relatively speaking non weather sealed” gear with water damage! 
Snow flakes turn in to rather large drops of water when they melt!  

Cheers, Graham. 



ritholtz said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi ritholtz.
> ...


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## ritholtz (Mar 20, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...


I tried little bit with face+tracking. It worked pretty good. I can use live view indoors if needed. I guess, I need to look into M series for my future purchase to get smaller body with lot of features. Thanks again.


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## ritholtz (Mar 20, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi ritholtz.
> I should have added that Angela has the 100D (SL1) which she has used for motor racing and even with relatively slow (55-250 non STM) moving lenses had reasonable success tracking approaching cars so I would hope that the SL2 would be somewhat better if paired with lenses that can move focus more quickly. I know karate has a very different movement profile from motor racing.
> Angela didn’t get to try her new 55-250 STM Lens this year as it was snowing at the races and she preferred not to risk ruining the “relatively speaking non weather sealed” gear with water damage!
> Snow flakes turn in to rather large drops of water when they melt!
> ...


Thanks for the information Graham.


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## ritholtz (Mar 20, 2018)

jd7 said:


> I have not used the SL2 but I have a 6D, and the AF systems seems to have some similarities, ie the peripheral AF points are line sensors, with only the centre point being cross-type (and the 6D gets an extra vertical line sensor with f/2.8 and wider aperture lenses).
> 
> If I was using my 6D, I would largely agree with what lago has said. I doubt you would have much luck with the peripheral AF points. However I would add:
> 
> ...


I am going to try with tracking using one AF point (mostly center as it is double cross type). Tracking with all AF points is kinda like a block box. Some times it shows me all AF points lit and some times none. Not sure what is the reason for this. Fallowing are the few pics i took with all focus points active (Auto),





[url=https://flic.kr/p/22AoxVy]



[url=https://flic.kr/p/FG45pF]




Camera didn't focus on to any subject. May be it is a lens. I have placed order for 50mm STM lens to test with Canon lens. May be I will try with 55-250mm next time for tracking outside. As I was pushing aperture to wide open, there is a problem with small dof as well.


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## ritholtz (Mar 24, 2018)

I bought 50mm STM lens recently as a backup. I can use 50mm at f/2 and also better tracking. I am not sure about Sigma 105mm os macro lens focusing. It is too big for SL2. I kept this lens with the hope of getting FF camera some day. 

I am going to do few more tracking practice with just using shutter button (without bbf). I need to get hang of releasing shutter button to half position instead of completely. That should give me all bbf functionality i am looking for. 

Do you think, it is better to find used 85mm or 100mm usm prime lens. May be I can try selling big sigma 105mm macro lens and get one of these primes. 

Thanks


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## Valvebounce (Mar 24, 2018)

Hi ritholtz. 
I don’t know if you have tried it and didn’t like it or never tried it don’t get it, but for me the best thing about BBF is *not* having to hover my index finger half pressed, just hold the thumb button down to its on position and use the index finger to fully depress the shutter, I find holding the shutter half way leads to more fatigue than holding the BBF button down, it also leads to more accidental shots as fatigue increases. 
The flip side is the 100D is not the most ergonomic camera we have for using BBF! It is small and light! 

Cheers, Graham. 



ritholtz said:


> I bought 50mm STM lens recently as a backup. I can use 50mm at f/2 and also better tracking. I am not sure about Sigma 105mm os macro lens focusing. It is too big for SL2. I kept this lens with the hope of getting FF camera some day.
> 
> I am going to do few more tracking practice with just using shutter button (without bbf). I need to get hang of releasing shutter button to half position instead of completely. That should give me all bbf functionality i am looking for.
> 
> ...


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## jd7 (Mar 24, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Camera didn't focus on to any subject. May be it is a lens. I have placed order for 50mm STM lens to test with Canon lens. May be I will try with 55-250mm next time for tracking outside. As I was pushing aperture to wide open, there is a problem with small dof as well.



It does look like the camera completely lost the target there. Cameras with more AF points - and better AF points (eg cross type) are going to do a better job of tracking, I'm afraid. That said, where was your focus when you started tracking at the start of the sequence you took? Was the first shot you included in your post the first shot in the sequence? Had you started tracking before you took the first shot? 

You probably know already, but just in case, note that with the SL2 (and a number of other cameras, including the 6D), if you are using servo mode you either pick a single AF point (so you have continuous focus on whatever is under that AF point - fine if you can keep your AF point over the target), or you have all AF points active (so the camera can track your subject around the frame) but then you must start with your target under the centre AF point. Cameras with more advanced AF systems allow you start tracking from other points, but I don't believe that's possible on the SL2.


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## jd7 (Mar 24, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi ritholtz.
> I don’t know if you have tried it and didn’t like it or never tried it don’t get it, but for me the best thing about BBF is *not* having to hover my index finger half pressed, just hold the thumb button down to its on position and use the index finger to fully depress the shutter,



+1. It took a little bit of getting used to, but I'm definitely a fan of BBF now. I will occasionally switch back to having AF linked to the shutter button for particular situations, but 99% of the time I use BBF.


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## jd7 (Mar 24, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Do you think, it is better to find used 85mm or 100mm usm prime lens. May be I can try selling big sigma 105mm macro lens and get one of these primes.



I've never actually tested them head to head, or with an SL2, so I could be wrong, but my guess is an 85 f/1.8 or 100 f/2 would track better than the 50 f/1.8 STM. (I've never used that Sigma lens so I really wouldn't know about it.)

Maybe renting a lens and/or a different camera body is an option? (If you did rent a different body, make sure you give yourself some time to learn its AF system though.)


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## ritholtz (Mar 24, 2018)

jd7 said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Camera didn't focus on to any subject. May be it is a lens. I have placed order for 50mm STM lens to test with Canon lens. May be I will try with 55-250mm next time for tracking outside. As I was pushing aperture to wide open, there is a problem with small dof as well.
> ...


Thanks for the information. I started with first picture. I used all AF points (auto). As you explained it, it always starts with center AF point. Other option is to select one AF point manually and fallow the subject for tracking. I will try this option.


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## ritholtz (Mar 24, 2018)

jd7 said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi ritholtz.
> ...


SL2 has BBF button at very edge of Camera and placed in recess. Not sure if something wrong with my SL2 with stiff button action. Cheaper rebel (t6/t5) has better button for BBF. I need to practice using shutter in 2 steps in both directions instead of BBF with SL2. Thanks for the information.


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## jd7 (Apr 5, 2018)

Hi ritholtz

Has the karate tournament happened yet? If so, how did the SL2 go with the tracking? I'm curious!


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## Valvebounce (Apr 5, 2018)

+1 
When I saw this topic active again I was hoping it was an update to say how it went. 

Cheers, Graham. 



jd7 said:


> Hi ritholtz
> 
> Has the karate tournament happened yet? If so, how did the SL2 for with the tracking? I'm curious!


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