# 600ex-rt vs PocketWizard Flex TT5 Setup



## roadrunner (Apr 24, 2013)

Hey everyone, I'm sure this question has been asked a million times before, but I couldn't find anything specific too my scenario. I'm looking for someone that has extensive experience with both Canon's 600EX-RT and PocketWizard's Flex TT1/TT5/AC3. PW's system is unreliable at best in my experience, with the AC3 failing to control zones properly at times. I shoot primarily weddings, engagements, and couples.

Here's my current setup.
Canon 5D Mark III
Canon 7D
Canon 580 EX II
2x Canon 480 EX II (I mainly use these as the range is much longer due to no interference)
3x PocketWizard Flex TT5
PocketWizard AC3 Zone Controller

I'm looking into selling all the flashes/PocketWizards on ebay (I should get between $1100-1200 for everything) and replacing them with 3 Canon 600 EX-RTs or 2 600 EX-RTs and ST-E3-RT. What is everyone's recommendations? How are the Canon's to work with as far as convenience, control, and reliability go? I would like to get rid of the 430 EX IIs so I have a more powerful flash, but I can't use all 580EX II's due to the RF interference. Thoughts? Thanks in advance.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 25, 2013)

I have both the PW system and an ST-E3-RT with three 600EX-RT flashes. I use the PW setup with a PowerMC2 for an Einstein monolight. If I'm not using the monolight, the PWs stay in the case and I use the ST-E3-RT. 

Since you don't list a monolight among your assets, I'd go Canon RT.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 25, 2013)

The Canon RT system is a dream to work with. I have three 600's and an ST-E3-RT and they just work, every time, perfectly.

In your situation, having used the RT system for a while now (and having played with and been completely unimpressed with the Flex) I wouldn't hesitate, sell it all and get the RT. The 600 is $499 at the moment too so it is an excellent time to buy them.


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## eml58 (Apr 25, 2013)

Agree Neuro & privatebydesign, I have a pair of 600EX RT with the ST-E3 and I'm a Boob when it comes to Flash (found the PW and my 580EX units a mission to Mars every time I used them), the 600EX/ST-E3 set up just works, simple (fortunately for me) straight forward, and the 600EX RT units zoom to 200mm which is great for my Wildlife stuff with the 200f/2 & 300f/2.8 V2 Lenses, I use the RRS Ring Bracket set up, cant beat it, but having said all that, remember I class myself as a learner in this area of Flash Photography.


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## photo212 (Apr 25, 2013)

I use multiple 580EXII, a 580EX, and 550 flashes on flexTT5 all controlled with a miniTT1/AC3. I have not have the problems some seem to have. I do not use the socks or the hard shells. 

Something that I was taught seems to make the system more reliable:
1. turn everything off
2. turn on a flash, then its FlexTT5 to the proper channel
3. Repeat step 2 for each flash. Flash first, FlexTT5 second.
4. Then turn on your mini TT1
5. now, turn on your camera.

Easy way to remember: Turn things on, top to bottom. 

Since some of my flashes are hidden inside a softbox, the radio trigger is required. Once I started practicing the top-to-bottom method, I've not used the socks or hard shells.


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> I have both the PW system and an ST-E3-RT with three 600EX-RT flashes. I use the PW setup with a PowerMC2 for an Einstein monolight. If I'm not using the monolight, the PWs stay in the case and I use the ST-E3-RT.
> 
> Since you don't list a monolight among your assets, I'd go Canon RT.



Thanks for the response. I don't currently have any monolights, though I may pick up an Einstein or two for studio/formal portrait work at weddings. So that does worry me a bit, but I also feel like I need something more reliable for weddings that the 580/430/PW setup I have now. Sounds like the 600 EX-RT fits the bill. If I do get an Einstein, is it possible to use the 600EX-RT's together with the PW system? IE: Flex on the camera, 600EX on the flex, 600EX triggering other 600EX's, and the PW triggering the Einstein?



photo212 said:


> I use multiple 580EXII, a 580EX, and 550 flashes on flexTT5 all controlled with a miniTT1/AC3. I have not have the problems some seem to have. I do not use the socks or the hard shells.
> 
> Something that I was taught seems to make the system more reliable:
> 1. turn everything off
> ...



Been there, done all of that, and then some. Tried a million different tweaks. There doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason for when my AC3 decides to stop controlling things properly. And I have no idea how your 580EX II works without a sock/filter, I get about 10 feet max off of mine unless I use them (Which is why I purchased the 430EX IIs in the first place).

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 25, 2013)

I too am testing out some Einsteins in a couple of weeks. My solution to using both 600's and the Einstein is to use the 600 via the hotshoe and run the Einstein via a PC cord from the camera PC socket, you can even use the Cyber Commander via the PC socket, full control over everything from the camera! 

That is the way I would do it should I go the Einstein route.


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## veraphoto (Apr 25, 2013)

Hello,

As it was mentioned by Neuro, The PW setup is it only worth keeping if you are going to use studio lights and want to control the power level on the strobes from the camera. If that doesn't happen in your case, sell all of the PW gear asap.

As far as using 600 ex-rt's, specially for events, I strongly recommend it. Canon has hit a homerun with its radio system. It is super reliable and fairly simple to use, once you get used to the key buttons on the flash (or directly on the camera, since you have a 5D3). We have been using the 600's for almost a year and it has been one of our best investments. We have 4 600s and 1 STE3 now.

My only additional suggestion, would be to consider using another 600 instead of the STE3 as the master. Since you do events, the AF assist light on the 600 is a savior for low light situations, plus the obvious fact that with the 600 you have a flash on top of your camera, giving you another option, beside the slave 600s. In my opinion, the STE3 is useful in more controlled enviroments (which is where we use it), but during a dimmly lit event, you need the AF to work as fast as possible.

By the way, looking forward to the 1.2.1 firmware for the 5D3. The AF when used with the assist light can really use more speed and that is supposed to come with this version.


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## digital paradise (Apr 25, 2013)

I have never had PW but did have an assortment of flashes and Cybersync triggers. I sold all of that and purchased 3 x 600 RT and an STE3. I love it. Group mode is fantastic which is designed to work with your 5D3. Menu layout is excellent and the LCD lights up when you press any button on the flash. You can also set it to stay on all the time if you wish. Love those features. 

Only thing is the STE3 does not have an Af assist beam. When I need that I put the flash on the camera and the other two on stands. This is for wedding reception type venues. When not (in studio) I use the STE3.

The 5D3 is pretty good without the AF assist beam any many just leave it on AI Servo which disables the assist beam anyway. Some people are upset about the lack of assist beam but it has not phased me at all. 

No off camera second curtain sync if that is important to you. 

One more thing. Canon RT only plays nice with Canon RT - so far. I have not looked back and do not miss my old system.


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## digital paradise (Apr 25, 2013)

veraphoto said:


> Hello,
> 
> As it was mentioned by Neuro, The PW setup is it only worth keeping if you are going to use studio lights and want to control the power level on the strobes from the camera. If that doesn't happen in your case, sell all of the PW gear asap.
> 
> ...



I too am looking forward to this FW upgrade. I have been following all the threads on this from day one.


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## scottkinfw (Apr 25, 2013)

I have the mini, AC3, TT5 X2 580EXII X2, and use it on a 5D2- almost daily. I use the top to bottom technique too. I have tried many tweaks. What I can tell you from my experience is that it is always a crap shoot. Usually I have to completely adjust camera, flash stand position etc., and finally put flashes on manual. Sounds like I need to pony up for new flashes. 



digital paradise said:


> veraphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...


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## roadrunner (Apr 28, 2013)

One thing I forgot to ask - How quickly are you able to make changes to the remote flash units from the camera? I know you guys said it is easy and a dream to work with, but as someone that shoots primarily weddings, I really need to be able to dial in flash power (Manual or E-TTL compensation) within a second or two.

This is one thing I loved about my PW setup with the AC3 controller, as I could have multiple strobes setup at a reception and quickly change the output of my flashes or turn them off completely as I moved around the room, and you don't exactly have much time to make these changes. How is this on the 600-EX-RT? Thanks.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 28, 2013)

It is not as fast as the AC3, it isn't slow by any means and familiarity with the system will make a huge difference to your first attempts, but it isn't as quick or intuative as the AC3. 

Personally I end up doing flash exposure comp without taking my eye from the camera, I use the cameras FEC button and spin the QCD, whereas individual group control I do from the flash or ST-E3-RT, the one thing I hate about the ST-E3-RT is the screen orientation, when using a decent height tripod it is impossible to see! I slip it into and out of the hotshoe rather than mess with my framing.

But the system is very easy and quick to control, and it works, every time, no hassle, no drama, I found I just trust it and this makes everything else easier and faster.


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## roadrunner (Apr 29, 2013)

Privatebydesign,

Thanks for your help. It sounds like you have a decent amount of experience with both systems. Is there anything you miss about the pocketwizard setup?

I'm really worried about the greatly reduced range and the speed of usability. In theory, the PW setup was absolutely perfect for me (Aside from having addition devices slapped on my flashes/camera) but it just works too inconsistendly. Are these two issues really ever issues for you in real world use?


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 29, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> I too am testing out some Einsteins in a couple of weeks. My solution to using both 600's and the Einstein is to use the 600 via the hotshoe and run the Einstein via a PC cord from the camera PC socket, you can even use the Cyber Commander via the PC socket, full control over everything from the camera!
> 
> That is the way I would do it should I go the Einstein route.



Not a fan of cords, or tripping over them. But I'll likely try the MiniTT1 in the hotshoe under the ST-E3-RT, or a FlexTT5 via the PC socket, to trigger the Einstein.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 29, 2013)

Ah the damn internet! I wasn't clear, I meant trigger a remote control from the PC socket, not run a cable all the way to the Einstein. This leaves the hotshoe free for the ST-E3-RT/600EX-RT and even a Cyber Commander giving full remote control of the Einsteins can be used via the PC socket.

This modern cable buisness does make me laugh a little, we worked with full length PC cords for decades and are almost fanatical about wireless flash, and then we tether! Just a side observation.

roadrunner, I am writing a fuller reply to your questions.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 30, 2013)

I only had the PW setup for a week or so, I borrowed it all from a friend to evaluate. I used it with 550EX's so didn't suffer the extreme interference issues so many have with the 580EX II but I found it far from reliable, I couldn't tell you what firmware version it was running but to me it was so inelegant, cludgy and unreliable I never considered buying into the system after using it. It might seem easy and straightforwards to switch things on in a set order, but in the heat of the moment whilst unpacking gear quickly at an event that isn't forefront in my mind, and forget unfamiliar or inexperienced second shooters/assistants , getting misfires and diagnosing and correcting them took too long to sort out too. USB updates, settings via computer, unreliable connections, test firing, etc etc, it just didn't work for me. I hated the need to program in so many preferences via computer too.

The only really cool bit to me was the AC3, now that was so simple and intuitive I wish the guy who designed that part of the system had done the rest of it! That is the only part of the PW system I'd miss to any degree. But the intrinsic limitations of the AC3, the +3/-3 stops over your pre-programmed base point and "only" three groups are negated with the Canon RT system where you have full range control and five groups. There is no doubt as more people use three groups the ones who stand out will be using five more creatively.

The RT system in comparison is fantastic, after really shaking down the PW system and realising it wasn't for me the only other ETTL capable radio system I was interested in was the Phottix Odin. Now that is a really nice piece of kit too, very similar to the Nikon SU800 only radio, very intuitive, good screen angle and excellent feature set that surpasses the Canon feature set, particularly for pre 2012 bodies. But what I wanted, reliability, simplicity, elegance, and most event/reception shooters ideal, one flash on the shoe in ETTL and others doted around to raise the ambient in M, this is one area where the RT system shines, on post 2012 cameras it really is a dream setup and I have used it on 5D MkIII's like that. But I primarily shoot with pre 2012 bodies and although the functionality drops a bit I am still 100% satisfied with my setup. Basically if you have good batteries and turned it on and select slave mode the remotes work. No drama. No special order or test firings. No crossed fingers. It just works.

The range is much greater than Canon suggest too, I don't know why the rating is so low but when I got mine I tested it and was outside firing flashes that were inside my house from 150' away through walls. I haven't noticed a difference in range between the ST-E3-RT and the 600EX-RT as Masters. So my experience with the RT's is that it is 100% reliable at any practical distance I have imagined using. The PW might have a theoretical advantage in range, though many reviews suggest otherwise particularly with the 580EX II, but the RT works every single time at any distance I might need.

So the only real concern you might have is the interface, there is no getting round it, it isn't as fast as the AC3, but it is no slouch and depending on how you use a camera will make flash adjustments work better and faster for some than others. For instance in the above reception scenario I shoot with the camera in M mode with the remotes in M and on camera in ETTL, if I want to lighten or darken the ambient/remotes I just adjust aperture, this doesn't affect the ETTL illuminated subject as they are being metered separately. If I want to adjust the subject exposure I can do that without moving my eye from the viewfinder via the FEC button. So you can have a lot of control without touching the flash setup, I end up with De facto separate control of subject and ambient/remote flashes vie aperture control and FEC all without moving my eye from the viewfinder, don't forget FEC does not affect M flash power, only the ETTL strobes. But other situations can dictate completely different work methods.

If you want to switch off individual Groups then you do need to go into the flash menu but the 600 is so much better than any previous Canon flash for menu controls, indeed it is so good I am happy to play with P:Fn and C:Fn on the fly just for the sake of it. One tiny feature I like that Nikon has had for a long time, adjustable coverage priority, this can be used to nice effect over and above the head zoom function.

Maybe the best thing for you to do would be to either rent some, or buy them from a no quibble return outlet, and give them a real shakedown, but do give the interface a little time, there are so many different ways to work the system I'd be surprised if you couldn't find something that you liked, there is a learning curve but nothing intimidating (and nothing like the PW Flex system), and even after using mine extensively for months I am still finding nuances and applications I hadn't thought of before.

But biggest asset of all? Complete peace of mind in total reliability.


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## RLPhoto (Apr 30, 2013)

The 600RT system is slick, easy to use and very reliable from some rental's I've used. I really really like the 600-rt's if your willing to sacrifice $$$$ and Second Curtain sync off camera.

I never liked PW's TTL setups. Complex arrangements, Issues with 580II's, and Generally I shoot manual 90% of the time. That's why I still use El cheapo Cowboy triggers until I just replace all my speed-lites with 600's, but that has to wait until I sell off my ancient strobes for einsteins.


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## unfocused (Apr 30, 2013)

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I've got a question that I'm hoping Private or someone else with experience can answer for me.

After bitching for months about Canon's failure to release a receiver that can be used with the 580 EXII, I broke down this weekend, bit the bullet and ordered two 600 RT's from Canon's refurbished shop. I would have ordered four, but they went out of stock before I could order another two. Anyway, I now have two 600s and an ST-E3 on the way. 

I really need at least one more, but want to wait to see if they come back in stock at Canon Refurb. For the time being, I still have four 580 EXIIs and Yongnuo's excellent ETTL triggers (I think they are 622C).

My question: for a temporary setup, can I use the 600 RTs in radio mode and fire a 580 EXII as a slave. Would the light from the 600 RTs trigger the 580 EXII or will they be off-sync? Alternatively, can I temporarily use the Yongnuo radio trigger to trigger the 600 RTs or am I risking something catastrophic?

As you all know, I'm no technical geek. I am and always will be a "seat of the pants" shooter. Advice please.


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## PhotographAdventure (Apr 30, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Sorry to hijack this thread, but I've got a question that I'm hoping Private or someone else with experience can answer for me.
> 
> After bitching for months about Canon's failure to release a receiver that can be used with the 580 EXII, I broke down this weekend, bit the bullet and ordered two 600 RT's from Canon's refurbished shop. I would have ordered four, but they went out of stock before I could order another two. Anyway, I now have two 600s and an ST-E3 on the way.
> 
> ...



I think this setup would work. The 580s can be triggered via line of sight, but I would use an actual trigger receiver. I use 2 600s and a dumb manual flash that works well for indoors. Have the ST-E3 on your camera hotshoe, and the trigger plugged into your side port. I don't like line of sight triggering because it can be unreliable.


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## dwterry (Apr 30, 2013)

I just have to comment. I swear I have NOT found the "perfect" system yet. Each one comes so close ... and then misses it. 

I jumped on the RadioPopper bandwagon when they first came out. I used the PW TT5 system for several years. And about 6 months ago switched to the Canon 600s with with the ST-E3 remote.

My very most favorite thing about the PW was the AC3 Zone controller. With REAL/PHYSICAL switches and dials I could adjust settings without even looking at it. A bride could be walking down the aisle and I would have one set of lights flashing, then as she passed me I could switch to a different set of lights by quickly turning one switch off and another on. I barely had to take the camera away from my face long enough to flip the switches and then resume.

The downside to TT5 is the stupid RF interference with the Canon 580EXII flashes. I had 5 of those, all with socks on them and still had issues of flashes sometimes being too far to fire reliably (at just 20-30 feet!).

I love the reliability of the Canon 600s. I love that I have 5 groups to play with. I love that it works essentially the same way as the AC3 Zone Controller (being able to turn individual lights on or off, ettl or manual, etc).

What I _hate_ is that there are far too many button presses and dial turns to accomplish a single task.

Turn a light off:
AC3: flip a switch (often without even looking)
ST-E3: put remote down below me where I can see it (old eyes aren't helping), push a button, rotate dial to appropriate group, toggle off

Change the power setting is the same:
AC3: return a dial (often without even looking)
ST-E3: put remote down below me where I can see it, push a button, rotate dial to appropriate group, push a button, rotate dial to desired power level

Too many button presses and dial turns - all of which require that I watch the screen while I'm doing it because all of the buttons are "context sensitive" (meaning they change what they do based on what is on screen at the time). 

I would PAY EXTRA MONEY to get a remote that let me control my lights with physical buttons and dials like the AC3 Zone Controller.

Please pass the word along to Canon.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 30, 2013)

Hi unfocused,

Like PhotographyAdventure said you have several options, but the only way you can get full Canon ETTL functionality on the 600's and 580's is via the optical wireless. However it might be worth trying the ST-E3-RT on pass through on the 622C controlling the 600's, and have the remote 580's on the other 622C's that might work, but I doubt it! I don't see how you could control the 580's as the camera flash menu would "see" the ST-E3-RT.

Other than that thought manual triggering of some flashes via the PC socket and the 622, or more 622's (if they work fully with the 600's) would seem the way forwards until you get your next 600's.


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## vuilang (Apr 30, 2013)

PW is less %trigger but more accurate on exposure (in ETTL mode, manual is.......manual)
600 RT is 100% trigger but less accurate on exposure.
that's is what im having.. but mostly using 600RTs due to convieniences


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## unfocused (Apr 30, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Hi unfocused,
> 
> Like PhotographyAdventure said you have several options, but the only way you can get full Canon ETTL functionality on the 600's and 580's is via the optical wireless. However it might be worth trying the ST-E3-RT on pass through on the 622C controlling the 600's, and have the remote 580's on the other 622C's that might work, but I doubt it! I don't see how you could control the 580's as the camera flash menu would "see" the ST-E3-RT.
> 
> Other than that thought manual triggering of some flashes via the PC socket and the 622, or more 622's (if they work fully with the 600's) would seem the way forwards until you get your next 600's.


 
Sorry guys, I guess I wasn't clear. I was just wondering if I could set the 580 EXII to manual and use the flash from the 600s to trigger it as an old-fashioned optical slave. I wasn't thinking I would have access to ETTL on the 580s.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 30, 2013)

If you want the 600's working in ETTL and the 580's manual, then only if you can find a Canon compatible optical trigger that would also ignore the ETTL pre-flashes, the 600's still fire pre-flashes for metering even in radio wireless. If you want everything manual then the 580EX II doesn't have a built in optical trigger like most Nikon flashes, but you can use one of these.

http://www.flashzebra.com/products/0118/index.shtml

Using them would give you dumb triggering over the 580's whilst still giving manual remote control over the 600's.

Hope that was more along the lines of your thought process.


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## unfocused (Apr 30, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> If you want the 600's working in ETTL and the 580's manual, then only if you can find a Canon compatible optical trigger that would also ignore the ETTL pre-flashes, the 600's still fire pre-flashes for metering even in radio wireless. If you want everything manual then the 580EX II doesn't have a built in optical trigger like most Nikon flashes, but you can use one of these.
> 
> http://www.flashzebra.com/products/0118/index.shtml
> 
> ...



Thanks, that does help. It's that pre-flash that always presents a problem. I'll play around with things when I get the 600s. I'm going to hang on the 580s until I can get another one or two 600s, so I won't be any worse off than I am now and knowing Canon's refurbished store, as soon as they end their current sale, the 600s will probably magically come back into stock. 

Again, sorry for hijacking the OP's thread. You can now return to your regularly scheduled programming.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 30, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Ah the damn internet! I wasn't clear, I meant trigger a remote control from the PC socket, not run a cable all the way to the Einstein. This leaves the hotshoe free for the ST-E3-RT/600EX-RT and even a Cyber Commander giving full remote control of the Einsteins can be used via the PC socket.



Thanks - makes sense. I agree with your comment about the simplicity of the AC3 (despite the 6-stop range - and for me, that hasn't been an issue as I just have different baseline set points for indoors vs. out, and I haven't needed more range). 

If I interpret the PW documentation correctly, I can mount the MiniTT1 on the hotshoe, mount the ST-E3-RT onto that, and control power on the PW receivers via the ST-E3. The docs are scanty, assuming the RT still emits, I may be able to control the Einstein via the MiniTT1 with power set by the ST-E3, and the three 600's with the Canon RT. Else, I'll use a short PC cable to a FlexTT5 with the AC3 to control the Einstein (if possible to use the AC3 for that) with the ST-E3 in the hotshoe. If that works, I will find a way to attach the FlexTT5 to the side of the L bracket, to keep it from dangling. I'm sure RRS has a solution for that, for a price.


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## roadrunner (Apr 30, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the responses. I bit the bullet and I ordered 3 600 EX RTs. May pick up a fourth, I'm not sure yet.

And DWTerry: I couldn't agree with you more about the physical switches. I am really going to miss that. Problem with my AC3 experience is that half the time, flipping the switches and dials didn't do anything anyways =)

Canon: I'm even willing to pay the Canon tax for such a solution. Give me physical buttons and I'll pay $500 for that stupid controller!


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## roadrunner (May 8, 2013)

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I wanted to provide an update for others that may be facing a similar dilemma (Or for those that find this thread via a search engine in the future).

As I said, I purchased 3 600 EX-RT flashes to replace my 430 EX II/580 EX II + Pocket Wizard Flex TT5 setup. As of right now, I couldn't be happier. The flashes trigger every time, with the correct settings, and well over the advertised range. Here's a list of pro's and cons when compared to the PW TT5 setup based on my personal experience.

Canon 600 EX-RT Pros:
Reliable triggering
Settings are easy to change, much better menu system than previous flashes
Ability to easily control up to 5 groups (Vs 3 for the PW + AC3 setup)
Simple to set some flashes to manual and some to TTL, and control the settings of each (AC3 was inconsistent for me for this purpose)
No waiting for firmware to make the PW work with new cameras, like the 5D3.
Cheaper if you are building a radio flash solution from scratch. I got mine for $500 each and B&H.
One less piece of equipment you have to maintain, carry around, and setup by eliminating the PWs altogether.

Canon 600 EX-RT Cons:
I lost the ability to sync my flashes at 1/400 or 1/500 (Depending on the camera I was using) compared to that standard 5D3 sync speed of 1/200.
Even though the range is much greater than advertised, they still can't compete with PWs incredible range.
No ability to trigger a remote camera
No physical switches and dials to control settings like the AC3, which makes it a little slower.

All in all, I am very happy with my choice to switch to the canon 600 EX-RT. They have been extremely reliable and a much better solution for me personally, where I need whatever solution I choose to work every single time. On paper, it would seem as if the PW flex + AC3 is the perfect setup, and I would agree, but I have found that in practice, the Canon solution just works much better and much more reliably. I wish I had saved my money on the PW setup. Hope this helps someone else, and thanks again to everyone how help me with this decision.


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## neuroanatomist (May 8, 2013)

roadrunner said:


> Canon 600 EX-RT Cons:
> 
> I lost the ability to sync my flashes at 1/400 or 1/500 (Depending on the camera I was using) compared to that standard 5D3 sync speed of 1/200.
> 
> No ability to trigger a remote camera



With a 5DIII you can do high speed sync with the RT system (although not with pre-2012 bodies).

You can also fire the camera remotely with from a flash/ST-E3 with another in the hotshoe (pre-2012 bodies can remotely trigger the shutter, but a cable to the N3 socket is needed).


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 8, 2013)

Another issue with third party flashes and triggers is that they often do not work with new Canon Models, and the wait for updated firmware can be 6 months if ever. That's probably OK for a cheap flash, since it won't last long anyway, but for a expensive trigger system, it might make someone unhappy.


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## privatebydesign (May 8, 2013)

roadrunner,

Glad it all worked out for you.

As Neuro said you can use HSS, you do lose a fair bit of flash power however it allows sync at any speed, and after you go past about 1/400 you are down to the shutter duration limiting flash power via any strobe anyway. The first couple of stops do take a big hit though, moving from sync speed to one third higher costs about 2 stops of power, by the time you get to 1/1000 the Canon flashes in HSS are working more efficiently than relying on long duration flash . Also as Neuro says, remote triggering is very easy, I have the SR-N3 cable for my pre 2012 bodies. The only limitation I have found is you can't trigger remotes with an unattached ST-E3-RT, you can with a 600EX-RT. Page 68 of the 600EX-RT manual covers remote release from a slave operation. 

Indeed this was one feature that appealed to me for my real estate work, I can set up my camera on a tripod with an ST-E3-RT on it and walk around with a 600EX-RT and point the flash where I want for accent lighting, push the button and the camera is triggered by the flash I am holding, that is then triggered by the camera! Very cool system.


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## privatebydesign (May 8, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> With a 5DIII you can do high speed sync with the RT system (although not with pre-2012 bodies).



Just a clarification on that point as the manual is far from clear. HSS via RT does work on some/many/most (?) pre 2012 bodies, just not in combination with ETTL flash metering (warning at the bottom of page 25),but it might/should work in Manual flash mode. Also whilst many pre 2012 bodies do not support RT ETTL at all (page 51), and no pre 2012 bodies are supposed to support RT ETTL and HSS at the same time, my 1Ds MkIII's do and are 100% reliable in that mode.


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## neuroanatomist (May 8, 2013)

Thanks - seems like Canon was either conservative in their specs, didn't bother testing, or <cynical>know full well these things work, but are underhandedly pushing people to buy new bodies for supposed full compatibility</cynical>.


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## privatebydesign (May 9, 2013)

I think, giving Canon the benefit of the doubt, they were cautious and they didn't bother testing the multitude of legacy products for exact specs. Of course this works both ways, it "encourages" people to buy newer bodies, but on the flip side more accurate info might have encouraged more 600 sales to older camera owners who don't intend upgrading bodies but do want better flashes.

For instance, the specs say my sync speed goes down one stop in RT mode. I have found this is not actually true most of the time, but is sometimes, that is, I sometimes get a shutter shadow at 1/250 but most of the time don't. I haven't pinned down what, exactly, is the setup that does get the shadow but I well understand Canon just saying _"you lose one stop of sync speed in RT mode"_ rather than going into every combination of every camera, can you imagine the outcry if they didn't put that proviso in there and people called them out on it? 

What I was hoping for prior to purchasing my RT system, was actual user feedback on their own real world results, I never could find it though which seemed strange bearing in mind all the people here who listed owning 1Ds MkIII's and 600EX-RT's, yet not one of them, even via PM, could give me any heads up at all.


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## roadrunner (May 10, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> roadrunner said:
> 
> 
> > Canon 600 EX-RT Cons:
> ...



Hi Neuro, 

Thanks for the response. I wasn't aware of the remote shutter triggering capabilities, that's something I will have to look into.

On the sync speed, I should have specified; I lose PocketWizard's proprietary HyperSync, which essentially allowed you to fire a full powered flash above your camera's rated sync speed. For me, I was able to get 1/400 on one of my bodies an 1/500 on the other, compared to the standard Canon sync speed of 1/250 or 1/200, which is a pretty big benefit to the PocketWizard system in my eyes. Because both systems can take advantage of Canon's High Speed Sync (Which I use regularly) I don't give a benefit to either solution there.


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## Chewngum (May 10, 2013)

dwterry said:


> I just have to comment. I swear I have NOT found the "perfect" system yet. Each one comes so close ... and then misses it.
> 
> I jumped on the RadioPopper bandwagon when they first came out. I used the PW TT5 system for several years. And about 6 months ago switched to the Canon 600s with with the ST-E3 remote.
> 
> ...


 
Try out the Yongnuo YN622C then. I have 5 transceivers and after putting complete faith in them for a number of jobs they've never let me down. I haven't tested beyond 30m but have mixed and matched the flashes between the 550Ex, 580EX, 580EXII and 600EX with no change. They have physical buttons, Hotshoe passthrough, AF assist beam, batteries last a lonng time, they are reliable, HSS is not problem, can be controlled entirely in camera if you want, etc etc. You could put the flashes down the aisle and press the group button by touch to change the channel as the bride moves. These things are absolutely fantastic. You can customise lots of functions too like remote flash zoom, mixing of ETTL and manual metering, PC Sync port built in and link lights blink on metering start. The RT system is amazing but very expensive and still limited more than the YN622C. I thoroughly recommended anyone doing remote ETTL to research and buys these....you won't look regret it!


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