# Canon's 120mp DSLR Two Years Away?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 13, 2015)

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We’re told by a couple of people at Canon that the 120mp DSLR concept that was shown this week at Canon EXPO is at least 2 years away. That would put such a camera off until 2017 at the earliest.</p>
<p>I asked if the 120MP DSLR would be in a 1D or 5D body and was told that probably wouldn’t be decided for quite some time. Where such a camera would fit into the marketplace will dictate the ergonomic requirements in the end.</p>
<p>A source outside of Canon said to expect new lens development to be accelerated over the next few years in preparation for such a camera as well as “other projects” currently on the go. The same source also said there are a lot of new lens designs in the pipeline and not as many direct replacements as one might think there would be.</p>
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## pedro (Sep 13, 2015)

Was there any word about the release of 1DX/5D/6D follow up models? 1DX fw update is the same as in old time TV age, when the signal went off, there where test pictures which said: "Standby, we're right back" 
Thanks for sharing. I wonder which lenses they're aiming at. DSLR or M-Cam stuff?
From my side, especially waiting for more 5D news... Lenses would be intresting as well: 14-24 F/4?/2.8? Likely?


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## sanj (Sep 13, 2015)

Its not like very many are waiting for it. Yet.


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## Pete (Sep 13, 2015)

VERY interesting... and the timeframe makes sense. With the speed that data storage and data transfer technologies are evolving the large files won't be so much of a problem by 2017. I'd love to be able to select the resolution to be used based on the particular scene that I'm photographing. A lower resolution would usually be fine if that would increase the fps for sports and a higher resolution would be perfect for landscapes shots that I might want to crop severely in post processing.


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## lholmes549 (Sep 13, 2015)

In 2 years time we may be slightly better equipped to handle the files, so the wait is good.

The biggest plus I take from this is the lenses that will be developed for a sensor like this.


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## 9VIII (Sep 13, 2015)

5Ds replacement? Maybe? Probably? It would make sense.
Except this one in the 5D4 body.

My current "realistic" plans are just to wait for the SL2 or maybe get an M3. I would love to have a 1Dx2/5D4/6D2/5Ds (or all of the above) but realistically my current 1100D still does everything I need. I even had a 5D2 and traded it away.


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## Maiaibing (Sep 13, 2015)

2 years sounds amazing!

I waited 7 years for a worthy successor to the 5DII.

If I can upgrade my 5DSR to 120 mpix in two years Canon will have changed their pace from a crawl to a race.


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## aclectasis (Sep 13, 2015)

Lol. By the time this is near ready, Nikon (through Sony) will already have released a 150mp camera.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 13, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> . The same source also said there are a lot of new lens designs in the pipeline and not as many direct replacements as one might think there would be.</p>
> [/html]




Maybe the rumor of a zoom Macro is going to happen. Its time for a new Macro. I'm expecting to see 4K DSLR lenses.


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## danski0224 (Sep 13, 2015)

aclectasis said:


> Lol. By the time this is near ready, Nikon (through Sony) will already have released a 150mp camera.



.....and there it is, didn't quite make it to page 2

;D


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## Orangutan (Sep 13, 2015)

aclectasis said:


> Lol. By the time this is near ready, Nikon (through Sony) will already have released a 150mp camera.



And scant lenses that can make use of it.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 13, 2015)

Orangutan said:


> aclectasis said:
> 
> 
> > Lol. By the time this is near ready, Nikon (through Sony) will already have released a 150mp camera.
> ...



Any lens that fits on the camera and works can _"make use of it"_.


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## keithcooper (Sep 13, 2015)

We're starting to see more evidence of the massive improvements in optical design and manufacturing technology that have taken place in the last few years.

With better quality (and more economical to produce) aspherical optics and the use of new glasses, it's not surprising that many lens designs are getting a significant makeover, rather than 'update'.

Looking at the timeline I help maintain on EFLens.com, I can see quite a few opportunities for new and updated lenses.

http://eflens.com/lens_articles/canon_lens_date_codes.html#history_of_EF_lenses

Of course when an update is 'new' and when it is 'MkII' is as much a marketing decision as optical... ;-)

For lenses I've got that I'd like to see 'improved'... well adding tilt/shift EXIF data to updated/new TS-E lenses would be helpful... I'm sure some interesting ideas for macro exist too.

Maybe if Canon gets more serious about EF-M, we'll see things like focal reducers and some of the other stuff that's hinted at in various patents.

Not so sure about 'ordinary' lenses, but my old 50/1.4 feels clunky


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 13, 2015)

danski0224 said:


> aclectasis said:
> 
> 
> > Lol. By the time this is near ready, Nikon (through Sony) will already have released a 150mp camera.
> ...



+ 10 :


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## ajfotofilmagem (Sep 13, 2015)

A 120 megapixel camera in 2017?

Certainly the technology will be ready by then.
But the market will be ready?

Let me explain better:
Canon launches products to meet the market demands, and I DO NOT believe there will be demand for 120 megapixel in 2017.

On the other hand, Sony launches many products in a hurry, and abandon a few months later. Remember the various versions of Memory Stick? TTL flash with reversed shoe? Remember the various lens mounts, incompatible with current cameras?

I do not see Canon doing such a thing.


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## Harry68 (Sep 14, 2015)

I think, there is no need for 120mp. 2 years ago, I've bought the 6D and I'm still fine with the 20mp. What I need is better ISO quality and dynamic range.

So lets see how the sales go for the 5Ds, but I think, the only reason for this cam is, that it is new. When the 5D iV will come to the market, the sales of the 5Ds will go down.


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## keithcooper (Sep 14, 2015)

A bit too much "I don't need it, so no-one needs it" ? ;-)

I don't need high ISO, but I know many do...

50MP has already helped me in real paying work, so I'm happy to see what comes.


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## CookieMonster (Sep 14, 2015)

A 120MP picture displayed on a 4K screen will have the same resolution per screen pixel as a 30MP on a Full HD monitor. As computer power and storage doubles roughly every 18 months, the treatments time will remain unchanged, while quality improves


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## Hector1970 (Sep 14, 2015)

Hopefully in 2 years time memory cards and hard drives will be at a price that can easily accommodate this size picture. I think there will continue to be a demand for extra megapixels even though most photos are just put on Facebook. There will always people who want more or the best available. Pixel peeping is inevitable. As screens increase in size and detail people will be looking for even more detail as they zoom in. I assume Canon talking about 120MP is an attempt to keep photographers with them and not being tempted to move. Sony are very competitive is this high pixel area.


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## Stu_bert (Sep 14, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Comment about new lenses not being straight replacements is interesting.
> 
> It may mean that instead of going for traditional formulas, they're going for ones that they can get the IQ to match the sensor resolution.
> 
> So rather than produce (say) another 24-70, we'll see a 28-60 or 28-75 or 35-75, etc, but with much better IQ corner to corner.



+1

It would be great if we didnt get the inevitable compromise, so long as Canon don't get the normal "envy" of other manufacturers from the uninformed...


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## rrcphoto (Sep 14, 2015)

Hector1970 said:


> Hopefully in 2 years time memory cards and hard drives will be at a price that can easily accommodate this size picture.


they already are really. CFAST is around $150/64GB, and hard drives are cheap.


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## ahsanford (Sep 14, 2015)

I'm not buying this rumor at all.

Strategically, gang, why would Canon unleash something in two years time whose principal performance breakthrough _is in the same improvement area as the current FF rig they are trying to launch?_

If true -- if Canon backed this up with a 'yes, it will be out in two years' statement -- all of the following would occur:


5DS and 5DS R sales would plummet. Why get in on the high res rig you (may) have been waiting for when Canon will blow that out of the water in two years?
Most EF lens sales will plummet. Why buy a lens that may not be 'rated for' / perform well for such a high res rig?
Anyone pondering leaving Canon for reasons _other_ than pixel count will feel the walls closing in on them. 'Canon's only concerned with resolution', 'There is nothing equivalently exciting coming on the DR front, on the high ISO front, etc.' In some foolish way, smacking the market with a 50 MP rig and _then_ a 120 MP rig in relatively close proximity would imply that Canon does not give a flying #$%@ about anything else.

I think that a 120 MP rig is a real product that we will see, but it's just a piece of a larger strategy for Canon. They can't keep hammering us with pixels and leave other areas unaddressed, and they sure as hell won't telegraph to the industry what they're up to. I'm taking any rumors with this rig with a massive skepticism until test units are in the field in one chosen form factor.

- A


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## LonelyBoy (Sep 14, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Comment about new lenses not being straight replacements is interesting.
> 
> It may mean that instead of going for traditional formulas, they're going for ones that they can get the IQ to match the sensor resolution.
> 
> So rather than produce (say) another 24-70, we'll see a 28-60 or 28-75 or 35-75, etc, but with much better IQ corner to corner.



It's not like those numbers are set in stone anyway. Didn't the"standard" pair used to be 28-80 and 80-200 instead of 24-70 and 70-200? I know I've seen other zoom ranges in older lenses that seem oddball compared to the ones for sale now, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see the "standard" ranges change in the future... even in an alternate universe where resolution was, for whatever reason, arbitrarily capped.

From looking back, it seems like aperture ranges for zooms also didn't used to be more variable than now, with most of the current range being on exact f-stops (except for a few that start at f/3.5).


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## unfocused (Sep 14, 2015)

I think two years may be optimistic. Nonetheless, I welcome any and all development and "real" announcements, as they can only mean better products in the future. 

A 120 mp camera is still going to need to perform at ISOs above 400 in order to be viable. Looking at what Canon has done with the 7DII and 5Ds, I can get very excited about high ISO performance in the 5DIV and in future generations if this technology does come to pass. 

I don't understand why people get upset when Canon announces an advancement in technology. It's not like they are going to suddenly drop all their existing lines and produce only 120 mp cameras. If this isn't the camera for you, so what? Unless your expectations are totally unrealistic or you have a burning desire for some small niche camera, chances are they will produce something that works for you. And if they don't, someone else will.


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## mistaspeedy (Sep 14, 2015)

The original post says AT LEAST 2 YEARS AWAY... it could be 3 years away, or 5 years, or 1500 years....
In other words 'do not expect to see this camera soon'. 

For all those saying that this is too much resolution, I can put it another way quite simply (for those people):

A 120 megapixel image (using a bayer filter like nearly all digital sensors ever made), does not give you proper color information for each pixel.
Resizing it down to 50% width and 50% height now gives you a 30 megapixel image, with full color information for each pixel, with the benefits of noise averaging from downsizing, with sharpness benefits from downsizing.

Think of it as a razor sharp and clean 30 megapixel image, as opposed to a 120 megapixel image.
^This is your improvement in image quality... achieved by putting a huge number of pixels on the sensor and then downsizing the image.

This is usually the workflow for video (for those who want the best results).... shoot at consumer 4k for full hd production.
Ideally, people will shoot 8K for 4K production... but until now 8K was so astronomically huge that it was impractical for many various technical issue... but times are changing and we are moving towards that.


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## rrcphoto (Sep 14, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> I'm not buying this rumor at all.
> 
> Strategically, gang, why would Canon unleash something in two years time whose principal performance breakthrough _is in the same improvement area as the current FF rig they are trying to launch?_



I'm sure canon knows it's market and knows what will happen far better than you. lenses plummeting? oh please.. any lens will perform better with higher resolution, as long as you keep the same sensor to magnification ratio - the higher MP sensor will look simply better.


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## rrcphoto (Sep 14, 2015)

mistaspeedy said:


> The original post says AT LEAST 2 YEARS AWAY... it could be 3 years away, or 5 years, or 1500 years....
> In other words 'do not expect to see this camera soon'.
> 
> For all those saying that this is too much resolution, I can put it another way quite simply (for those people):
> ...



and why not? where did you pull this out of your posterior?

The RX100 / G7X sensor is 1" 20Mp = 145MP full frame, and I have yet to hear anyone state that sensor doesn't give proper color per pixel.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 14, 2015)

mistaspeedy said:


> The original post says AT LEAST 2 YEARS AWAY... it could be 3 years away, or 5 years, or 1500 years....
> In other words 'do not expect to see this camera soon'.



Yeah who knows. They already demoed a 120MP high-speed sensor with on chip column parallel ADC 5 years ago. But not one bit of that tech has yet appeared in sensors that they mass produce and sell to EOS users. They still build everything, as far as it seems, on the old 500nm process that can't seem to handle anything of that tech.

I think they won't spend the money to upgrade the manufacturing ability to make truly new sensors until after their sales tank, and not a minute sooner. So long as people go on about "DRoners" and praise to the hills whatever they release and keep buy, buy buying every single new model that comes out.... they will just play it conservatively and be a follower rather than leader for such things. It's not run by photographers, artists, videographers, visionaries, etc. but conservative MBAs. The fact that they have now waited past the stagnation and decline in DSLR sales, unfortunately means they may be even more cautious and more likely to sit around milking the old processes for longer.

maybe, maybe the dual gain read can get them around the low ISO DR issue although it remains to be seen if they can manage that at 500nm at more than 12-25MP or so, if not the fast 4k over-sampled without over-heating stuff.


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## kelpdiver (Sep 14, 2015)

unfocused said:


> I don't understand why people get upset when Canon announces an advancement in technology. It's not like they are going to suddenly drop all their existing lines and produce only 120 mp cameras. If this isn't the camera for you, so what? Unless your expectations are totally unrealistic or you have a burning desire for some small niche camera, chances are they will produce something that works for you. And if they don't, someone else will.



I'd say I'm more "bothered" by the fact that Canon announced a ridiculously high (in the same ballpark as this one I believe) MP sensor several years ago. This feels like a repeat, though now it's only a little more than 2x what they're already shipping.


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## rrcphoto (Sep 15, 2015)

kelpdiver said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand why people get upset when Canon announces an advancement in technology. It's not like they are going to suddenly drop all their existing lines and produce only 120 mp cameras. If this isn't the camera for you, so what? Unless your expectations are totally unrealistic or you have a burning desire for some small niche camera, chances are they will produce something that works for you. And if they don't, someone else will.
> ...


umm no, canon never made a development announcement they didn't follow through with.


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## rrcphoto (Sep 15, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> mistaspeedy said:
> 
> 
> > The original post says AT LEAST 2 YEARS AWAY... it could be 3 years away, or 5 years, or 1500 years....
> ...



it's always nice to see / hear from someone with exact and intimate knowledge of canon's manufacturing capabilities.

of course .. you don't have any knowledge - so that entire dissertation is prefaced with a "IMO"

I'm curious .. how did a 2012 chipworks article make you an expert?

since that article the 6D and 5Ds full frame cameras were released and canon introduced dual pixel sensors.

all of which aren't covered by chipworks blog.

let me also fill you in on patents. that dual slope ADC patent was just approved this year, more dual slope patents finally cleared the patent office and were approved this august just past. a patent application is worth the same as toilet paper. Just because they R&D a sensor, does not mean they have the legal right to commercially produce.


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## rrcphoto (Sep 15, 2015)

dilbert said:


> kelpdiver said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



they just held an every 5 year "future looking" event called Canon EXPO.

two announcements were made of products showcased at that event.. 120MP camera, and 8K video.

the announcements were made just days before the event.

is it really this hard to figure out?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 15, 2015)

rrcphoto said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > mistaspeedy said:
> ...



So despite the fact that ever sensor that has been verified has been built on the old 500nm plant so far and there has been not a single leak about them having moved to source their DSLR sensors on a different plant and no expenditures showing anything new beyond the copper pipe plant where again, nobody has been able to find any source saying they are doing DSLR stuff on yet you just know they have moved to a modern fab?

And if so, isn't that still as bad, if not worse? Since then they actually could already be matching Exmor and without even having to spend any money to do it but they are holding back just to milk people along on old designs a few more times and to suck another bit of old money out of the decrepit 500nm fab.

How would that scenario even be better, if it were even somehow true?




> let me also fill you in on patents. that dual slope ADC patent was just approved this year, more dual slope patents finally cleared the patent office and were approved this august just past. a patent application is worth the same as toilet paper. Just because they R&D a sensor, does not mean they have the legal right to commercially produce.



and plenty of times they know what they have and work on products at the same time and release them around the same time as the patent

plus the more Exmore-like ways of doing it they already had set for a long while

also you don't need a patent to be able to legally produce something! all the patent does is protect you so that someone else can't then also run off and produce your design too. but sure as heck can produce whatever you want without a patent (so long as someone else doesn't have a patent on it), they are not permission slips or licenses as you make it sound to let you be allowed to produce your own design


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## rrcphoto (Sep 16, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> So despite the fact that ever sensor that has been verified has been built on the old 500nm plant so far and there has been not a single leak about them having moved to source their DSLR sensors on a different plant and no expenditures showing anything new beyond the copper pipe plant where again, nobody has been able to find any source saying they are doing DSLR stuff on yet you just know they have moved to a modern fab?



news flash - canon's TWO fabs always had the ability to do more than 500nm. Canon had 180nm in there since the start. Not to mention what design rules canon used, and what the systems are capable of producing are really two different things. part duex of this news flash is that D800 sensor was produced with 250nm design rules.

secondly the fab equipment to produce even a D800 class sensor is around 20 years old - not exactly "modern" fab equipment.

Thirdly, the chipworks only went up to sensors fabricated in early 2012. Excludes all 70D (probably not 500nm out of something called common sense) and nor 7DII and nor 6D and nor 5Ds.

Fourthly - canon never divulges every last expenditure - and certainly not to you or I. This equipment isn't expensive. we're not talking a leading bleeding edge 22nm high yield and throughput chip manufacturing facility here. Canon has a 700 million or more per year R&D budget - these systems are rounding error - and can be purchased used from existing fabs.

fifthly - you don't have to move to a new fab to upgrade one.

as a matter of fact, Chipworks 2012 covers no current APS-C canon sensors, and only 50% currently in production full frame sensors.

but yes, i'm sure according to you .. canon managed to produce sensors with 500nm with 3.7um pixel pitch, 4.1 pitch (split in half even - with 500nm design rules? LOL right), and of course the 5Ds sensor with 4.14 microns.

Your information is out of date and woefully lacking and you're treating it as gospel. So again, you don't even have a clue to what you are talking about.

and I'm LOL'ing at your patent stuff. Like I said, what you can produce in a lab in R&D and what you are legally able to manufacture are two different things.

Exmor double CDS and ADC is patented by Sony btw - alot of Sony's lack of low ISO noise isn't "on chip ADC", but more to do with the double sampling.


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## LonelyBoy (Sep 18, 2015)

dilbert said:


> For me it isn't the ridiculously high MP that I find interesting, it is the lead time to the product being delivered.
> 
> How many companies do you see talking about products with such a large lead time?
> 
> ...



Intel and AMD both publish multi-year roadmaps. Probably the rest of the semiconductor industry does as well.


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## mistaspeedy (Sep 19, 2015)

rrcphoto said:


> mistaspeedy said:
> 
> 
> > The original post says AT LEAST 2 YEARS AWAY... it could be 3 years away, or 5 years, or 1500 years....
> ...



Besides a few exceptions, all digital image sensors use a Bayer filter.

Please have a read through the Wikipedia article about Bayer filters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter

To save everyone some time, I have taken the key sentence out and pasted it here, along with an image of what the filter looks like:

"Since each pixel is filtered to record only one of three colors, the data from each pixel cannot fully specify each of the red, green, and blue values on its own. To obtain a full-color image, various demosaicing algorithms can be used to interpolate a set of complete red, green, and blue values for each pixel. These algorithms make use of the surrounding pixels of the corresponding colors to estimate the values for a particular pixel."






Here you can see the photosites (grey) being covered by different colored filters... each 'pixel' is either green, red or blue... therefore none have full color.

The Bayer filter and accompanying demosaicing algorithms do a pretty good job, but they are, as stated in the article, an estimate for the values of each pixel.

In other words - no camera using a Bayer filter gives truly accurate RGB information for each pixel. Virtually all cameras use a Bayer filter.

Another source is this link:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-sensors.htm
Here, it is better explained that the photo sensitive 'photosites' cannot distinguish color information. This is why we need a Bayer filter in the first place, because the photosites cannot record color information, just brightness information.


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## Benhider (Sep 23, 2015)

Why do we need 120MP? I have the 5DS and rarely shoot at full size Raw


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## privatebydesign (Sep 23, 2015)

Benhider said:


> Why do *we *need 120MP? I have the 5DS and rarely shoot at full size Raw



You obviously don't, but Canon think enough people will.


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 28, 2015)

My obvious first question is if the 5Ds / 5Ds R have issues with keeping the image sharp becase of pixel size, and the difraction limitations mean the sweet spot is f7.1 not f11 or f16 landscape photographer like me prefer how the hell are we going to use 120MP? Canon would need to impliment some kind of image stabilised sensor in partnership with the in-lens image shift and very clever processing but how you get around difraction is another issue.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 28, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> My obvious first question is if the 5Ds / 5Ds R have issues with keeping the image sharp becase of pixel size, and the difraction limitations mean the sweet spot is f7.1 not f11 or f16 landscape photographer like me prefer how the hell are we going to use 120MP? Canon would need to impliment some kind of image stabilised sensor in partnership with the in-lens image shift and very clever processing but how you get around difraction is another issue.



Do you get sharp images from your iPhone and P&S? They have pixel density ratios of several hundred when put on a FF camera. Years ago the Canon made P&S sensors were in the 400MP (per FF sensor) range and because they were back light designs had excellent per area noise characteristics.

The only letdown will be lens performance in the >200MP sensor area, no stabilization needed and diffraction will be what it always is, more pixels doesn't make diffraction worse or more visible, it just means you are resolving it better.


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## GMCPhotographics (Sep 30, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



What I find amusing about this particular forum...is that everyone sees themselves as an expert in sensor design and fabrication. Added to this is a conspiracy theory / fear that Canon is with holding tech from it's consumers and that they are generally mean and evil. 

Take a look over the Evolution of Canon's DSLR's and their lens portfolio. There's a steady flow of tech / R&D and process here. I can imagine at the moment, there are Canon techies sitting in a room wondering how they can integrate a 120mp sensor / tech into the product stream with an eye on the bigger picture. 

From my observance of a lifetime with Canon equipment, they are cautious and careful with what they bring to the market. Mistakes are very rare in the Canon world. I don't see Nikon or Sony updating their entire lens range so they they perform well with higher MP sensors? Most of Nikon's lenses are very ancient compared to Canon's portfolio.


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## quod (Sep 30, 2015)

GMCPhotographics said:


> What I find amusing about this particular forum...is that everyone sees themselves as an expert in sensor design and fabrication.


Yes, yet I have a nagging suspicion that nobody on this forum has actually designed or worked in the fabrication of sensors, yet opine on these topics with an authoritative voice. It's goofy.


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