# Lens calibration question



## Mancubus (Sep 9, 2016)

I have a 70-200 2.8 II IS, which had some focusing inconsistency with my 5d3 in the past (AFMA wouldn't solve it because it was randomly misfocusing).

I've sent them both to Canon and after a month it came back perfectly calibrated, nails focus all the time without need for any AFMA. However, my backup camera (a 100D or SL1) is hopeless with this lens, misses focus a lot of the time. It works well with my other lenses though.

It doesn't really bother me because I rarely use that body especially with that lens. I could send it to Canon for a month to calibrate but not with the lens (which I need for my work). Questions:

1- Can Canon do anything about my 100D calibration without me having to send in the lens as well?

2- If I buy a 5d4, I'm afraid it could have the same issue and I don't want to send it in for a month right after buying it. Since the 70-200 has been serviced and calibrated for my 5d3, will it also work perfectly with the 5d4 (assuming I don't buy a lemon)?


----------



## Random Orbits (Sep 9, 2016)

Canon calibrates to a standard reference, so 5DIII was calibrated to the standard and the 70-200 was calibrated to the standard (which is one of the reasons why they wipe out the AFMA tables, although if it was randomly misfocusing and is no longer, then other adjustments were probably made to the lens). That said, does your SL1/100D consistently front/back focus with the 70-200? If so, then sending the 100D/SL1 body to be calibrated would solve the problem, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Do you have to set any AFMA values with your 5DIII, especially fast lenses you're planning on using with the SL1? If so, then adjusting the SL1 to the standard may affect its performance with your other lenses. However, if the other lenses you use with the SL1 are slow, then the calibration will likely fall within the depth of focus already, so the effect will not be noticeable.

The 5D4 has AFMA so at worst, you'd have to put in a nonzero value. My 5D3 used to have consistent -4 to -7 with the majority of my lenses. I had it serviced, and now all my entries are zero (except a Sigma lens, surprise, surprise...).


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 9, 2016)

Random Orbits said:


> Canon calibrates to a standard reference, so 5DIII was calibrated to the standard and the 70-200 was calibrated to the standard (which is one of the reasons why they wipe out the AFMA tables, although if it was randomly misfocusing and is no longer, then other adjustments were probably made to the lens). That said, does your SL1/100D consistently front/back focus with the 70-200? If so, then sending the 100D/SL1 body to be calibrated would solve the problem, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Do you have to set any AFMA values with your 5DIII, especially fast lenses you're planning on using with the SL1? If so, then adjusting the SL1 to the standard may affect its performance with your other lenses. However, if the other lenses you use with the SL1 are slow, then the calibration will likely fall within the depth of focus already, so the effect will not be noticeable.
> 
> The 5D4 has AFMA so at worst, you'd have to put in a nonzero value. My 5D3 used to have consistent -4 to -7 with the majority of my lenses. I had it serviced, and now all my entries are zero (except a Sigma lens, surprise, surprise...).



Thanks for the clarifications, so I think the wisest thing to do it send the 100D alone to be calibrated to the standard. I thought it actually had to be sent with the lens.

Dumb question: why Canon sells cameras and lenses that are not calibrated to the standard? This should be a mandatory procedure before anything leaves the factory.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 10, 2016)

Canon does calibrate lenses. They can be damaged or knocked out of adjustment in shipping or in use. Always check them as soon as you get them. Third party lenses seem to be even more prone to being knocked out of alignment. The latest canon lenses are more robust and better packed but shippers can damage anything


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 10, 2016)

With any calibration process, there is the question of "to what accuracy"...... In the manufacturing process, lenses are tested and adjusted to be "good enough" but they are not precisely calibrated. Calibration takes time and skilled people with precision equipment and that costs money.


----------



## Random Orbits (Sep 10, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon does calibrate lenses. They can be damaged or knocked out of adjustment in shipping or in use. Always check them as soon as you get them. Third party lenses seem to be even more prone to being knocked out of alignment. The latest canon lenses are more robust and better packed but shippers can damage anything



+1. My 5DII + 70-300 dropped into muddy grass and it changed the AFMA values by about -3.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 10, 2016)

It depends on how much it misses with it's inconsistency. With my fairly broad experiences with AF and calibration, one value can seem to be perfect, but the lens misses too much and both front and back.

Then when you find that correct afma it all falls into place and the AF becomes MUCH more stable.

Just recently with my 200 f2 I tested and found +3 to hit, but in Servo it was missing too much and I ran it through FoCal which gave me +4. After that it became like glue and it simply doesn't miss anymore.

So be aware that +/-1 will not make a difference in sharpness, most often, but in stability. Seen this with all kinds of L-glass, also zooms.


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 11, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon does calibrate lenses. They can be damaged or knocked out of adjustment in shipping or in use. Always check them as soon as you get them. Third party lenses seem to be even more prone to being knocked out of alignment. The latest canon lenses are more robust and better packed but shippers can damage anything



The lenses come inside a plastic bag, with a very protective foam around it, and then a box. If you order online there will be an additional foam/bubble wrap and then another cardboard box. I know these lenses can take quite a beating, I'm pretty sure my lenses endure daily a lot more than a brand new lens that never left the box.

I don't think I could be rough enough to mess up the calibration of a brand new lens in the box without clearly damaging the box. I also believe that in the absolutely majority of cases, these new lens boxes are properly transported. My conclusion is: If a brand new lens is not focusing well, Canon didn't do a good job calibrating/testing it enough.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 11, 2016)

Mancubus said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Canon does calibrate lenses. They can be damaged or knocked out of adjustment in shipping or in use. Always check them as soon as you get them. Third party lenses seem to be even more prone to being knocked out of alignment. The latest canon lenses are more robust and better packed but shippers can damage anything
> ...



Your conclusion is wrong. Every lens and every camera is manufactured within certain tolerances. If you get a camera and lens at the edge of what Canon approves it might miss quite a bit when you put them together, if you then have a camera off in one end and the lens in the other end, suddenly they are bang on together. To compensate for this, you have the possibility to AFMA in the camera body.


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 11, 2016)

Viggo said:


> Mancubus said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



If this is the case, either the tolerance is insufficient or I was extremely unlucky to have about half of the lenses and bodies I've ever had (about 10 lenses and 5 bodies) seriously misfocusing.

And most of the time I've had focus issues, AFMA didn't help because the focus was inconsistent, not missing always in the same way. 

Back to the thread, I'm quite happy that now I finally have a decent camera (5d3) with 3 lenses that actually work well (16-35 f4, 40 pancake and 70-200 II). My concern is if this will maintain after I buy a new camera body, or will I have to send everything to Canon again to calibrate.


----------



## YuengLinger (Sep 11, 2016)

Mancubus said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Canon does calibrate lenses. They can be damaged or knocked out of adjustment in shipping or in use. Always check them as soon as you get them. Third party lenses seem to be even more prone to being knocked out of alignment. The latest canon lenses are more robust and better packed but shippers can damage anything
> ...



Viggo is right, but more than one of your conclusions is wrong.

You are right that new Canon lenses are packed adequately. In fact, I think the protective foam and cardboard has evolved somewhat over the years to deal with the realities of online ordering and delivery. But the lenses are still delicate, precisely aligned instruments that can be knocked out of calibration.

As for why lenses still need calibration, first there is the handling that happens after they leave the factory. Then there is the handling in warehouses, retailers, and on the way to the final destination.

But there is also the same series of handlings of camera bodies, which get knocked around just as much.

And, unless you are putting a new lens on a new body, you have been handling the camera body, often unaware of knocks and bumps. Then there are the effects of temperature changes. It cannot be good for calibration if, for example, a camera is left in a hot car for much of a summer. (Yeah, I've done it.)

As for delivery services "properly" handling lenses, you have to be kidding me. And retailers? I stopped ordering any camera gear from Amazon because they take less care boxing a $2000 lens than a $10 paperback book. Or they used to, several years ago. I've heard they have improved a bit. B&H won the shipping competition with me! In my area, USPS was doing better with undamaged packages than UPS, but then Amazon stopped using UPS for the most part. Now I cringe whenever I see a FedEx truck; they used to be great, now roughly 1 of 3 packages come very dirty, banged up, and/or torn open. The worst of the worst the past year.

And, no, the lens boxes are not marked, "Handle with Care. Fragile!"

Glad you are having better luck!

Finally, even if there were no environmental or handling variables, the cost of perfect calibration on a mass produced scale would raise the price of any instrument way beyond what a consumer or even professional could afford to pay. Our space agency, NASA, is a pretty typical government black hole of tax dollars, but the legitimate costs which result in $100 million dollar satellites include some of the most precise manufacturing on the planet. Can't be reproduced in a mass production factory.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 11, 2016)

If you find your gear to be very inconsistent either sell that Sigma [email protected], or send your camera to be serviced.

I had my 1dx serviced 5 times after they replaced my shutter. The symptoms was that the camera could do ten VERY different focusing distances on the same still subject with great contrast with one shot, each shot was different even if the focus locked each time. They claimed it worked, but when I got it back it was doing the same thing. The last time they said we either find the fault or replace your camera. They finally got it right and it's working again.


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 12, 2016)

Viggo said:


> If you find your gear to be very inconsistent either sell that Sigma [email protected], or send your camera to be serviced.
> 
> I had my 1dx serviced 5 times after they replaced my shutter. The symptoms was that the camera could do ten VERY different focusing distances on the same still subject with great contrast with one shot, each shot was different even if the focus locked each time. They claimed it worked, but when I got it back it was doing the same thing. The last time they said we either find the fault or replace your camera. They finally got it right and it's working again.



I already got rid of my sigma [email protected] (gladly I only had one lens, never again). At this moment my current main gear works fine, what I'm worried is about my next one (probably 5D4 in a few months).

But do you think it's acceptable to send it FIVE times? How long did you stay without the camera? How much frustration did you endure when it came back for the 3rd/4th time still with the same problem?

You're not the first case I read about an unacceptable service, and yet you disagree when I say that Canon is not doing a good job before shipping/servicing these expensive lenses and bodies. You had the most expensive/tough/badass body and still got [email protected] service.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 12, 2016)

Mancubus said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > If you find your gear to be very inconsistent either sell that Sigma [email protected], or send your camera to be serviced.
> ...



Of course they should've calibrated and realigned everything properly at the same time they replaced the shutter, but I don't blame Canon as a brand and in general for a few useless technicians.

And besides, I have had pretty much every L-lens under 300mm f2.8 IS, and many of them 6-8 times over the years, and only once have I needed more than +20 afma value, sent it in and adjusted +3 and it worked. I had the dreadful 1d3 that really made me think twice, but Canon admitted (finally) that it was useless and it was one out of 10-12 bodies I have owned. Stuff breaks, but Canon gear has VERY low percentage of faulty products in my experience. And when it works like intended it's the worlds best.


----------



## Sabaki (Sep 12, 2016)

Whilst on the subject of calibrating equipment...

Had a chat with a former Canon technician who said that Canon have what he termed 'master technicians'. These are the guys who train the gold level technicians that handle the major issues the average comsumer may encounter.

He went on to state that these are the same guys who calibrate review bodies and lenses for Canon's ambassadors and that got me thinking, are all Canon technicians able to calibrate a piece of equipment 100%?


----------



## Viggo (Sep 12, 2016)

Sabaki said:


> Whilst on the subject of calibrating equipment...
> 
> Had a chat with a former Canon technician who said that Canon have what he termed 'master technicians'. These are the guys who train the gold level technicians that handle the major issues the average comsumer may encounter.
> 
> He went on to state that these are the same guys who calibrate review bodies and lenses for Canon's ambassadors and that got me thinking, are all Canon technicians able to calibrate a piece of equipment 100%?



No they are not capable at all. The first place I sent it to tried two times and then admitted they didn't really have the equipment or the skills. They shipped to a main service site in another country. And even they tried a few times. And it's not like I'm picky. The body shot twenty shots with 20 COMPLETELY different grades of sharp focus. 95% completely off and every 7-8 picture was good enough. How they didn't see this is beyond me. I even sent loads of examples, yet they cleared it and sent it back.


----------



## Sabaki (Sep 12, 2016)

Viggo said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > Whilst on the subject of calibrating equipment...
> ...



Ouch! You're not from South Africa by any chance are you?


----------



## Viggo (Sep 12, 2016)

Sabaki said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Sabaki said:
> ...



Haha, couldn't be further from it, in from Norway, but if it's like both there and here, it's not an isolated incident now is it.... Ouch, indeed...


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 12, 2016)

Viggo said:


> Haha, couldn't be further from it, in from Norway, but if it's like both there and here, it's not an isolated incident now is it.... Ouch, indeed...



Even living in a top notch country you got this kind of service. Now try to imagine how hard it is for some of us in 3rd world countries (some with very weak consumer protection laws) to get something done properly.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 12, 2016)

Mancubus said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Haha, couldn't be further from it, in from Norway, but if it's like both there and here, it's not an isolated incident now is it.... Ouch, indeed...
> ...



A lot of brands should really step up and train people properly and provide the correct instruments to provide proper service indeed...


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 6, 2017)

Just an update here on my situation:

My 70-200 2.8 IS II is giving me slightly off focus in about 40% of the images and way off in about 20%. Very frustating because in a photoshoot I must make the same shot like 4-5 times just to be almost sure the eye will be in perfect focus at least in one shot (and sometimes it isn't!).

I tried with 2 different bodies, a 5D3 which was sent in to be calibrated with this lens last year and a new 80D. Both have the same inconsistency, but behave well with some other lenses I have.

I really don't want to be without my 5D3 this time, it takes too long and I got work to do. If I send just the 70-200 to Canon service, will they actually do anything or just tell me it's all working well? And if they do calibrate, how much am I expected to pay since warranty has already expired.


----------



## littleB (Sep 6, 2017)

From my knowledge of Canon calibration, there are different tolerances for calibration, depending on lens.

Fast lenses (max aperture equal 2.8 or brighter) are to be focused within 1/3 DoF range around the focus target. Looks like the 2.8-sensitive AF point is required for this, too. 

Slower lenses (slower than 2.8) are calibrated to be focused within DoF.

They have a calibrated body with some service software, the body is used for lens calibration. My 24-70/2.8 mk1 was calibrared to be dead on at 50mm of zoom, but was a bit inaccurate at both ends of zoom range. 

For bodies calibration, they use a standard 50mm lens, also precisely calibrated.

Lens calibration can have two ways of adjustment: either some digital parameters are set to the lens (like sigma dock does), or mechanical adjustments are made. Sometimes technicians are lazy and do only electronic part of calibration.


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 6, 2017)

littleB said:


> Sometimes technicians are lazy and do only electronic part of calibration.



That is exactly my fear here, if the lens needs some mechanical intervention and they neglect it, I will end up paying for nothing.

I'm really thinking about servicing it or not, I don't want to pay hundreds of dollars for some lazy service that won't solve my problem.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 6, 2017)

Mancubus said:


> Just an update here on my situation:
> 
> My 70-200 2.8 IS II is giving me slightly off focus in about 40% of the images and way off in about 20%. Very frustating because in a photoshoot I must make the same shot like 4-5 times just to be almost sure the eye will be in perfect focus at least in one shot (and sometimes it isn't!).
> 
> ...



Just send the lens in. Mention exactly what you have posted about previous repair, and using it on two 5D MK III bodies and 80D, and getting inconsistent autofocus. It really sounds like a mechanical lens issue to me, not a adjustment. 

If you are able, attempt to determine if the issue only happens at certain distances, for example, at ~ 8 ft as opposed to 20 ft. You might look at distance info for the bad photos and see if the issue is distance related, which points more to a mechanical issue or binding. That potentially would be a big help to Canon in finding the issue.

Canon will try to find the issue with the inconsistency, and then adjust it on a reference 5D MK III body. It should come back perfect. There are several mechanical issues that could cause the issue. If all of their test photos show consistent AF, there is little they can do.

If You happen to use Reikan Focal, there is a AF consistency test that can be run for each AF point that gives values that you could include when you send the lens in to Canon. Focal does a lot more than just AFMA. Try it with just the center point to see if it shows the issue.

https://www.reikanfocal.com/features.html#afc

"Autofocus Consistency How repeatable is your autofocus?
When you half-press that shutter button and your camera beeps, where is it _really_ focusing?
The Autofocus Consistency test will automatically defocus and refocus a number of times and show you just how consistent the focus point is.
This tool can highlight camera and lens problems, including degradation of focus drive mechanism. Combined with the FoCal Comparison Database, you can _know_ if you've got problems coming."


----------



## scottkinfw (Sep 7, 2017)

If you join CPS they may loan you a lens while yours is getting fixed?

sek



Mancubus said:


> I have a 70-200 2.8 II IS, which had some focusing inconsistency with my 5d3 in the past (AFMA wouldn't solve it because it was randomly misfocusing).
> 
> I've sent them both to Canon and after a month it came back perfectly calibrated, nails focus all the time without need for any AFMA. However, my backup camera (a 100D or SL1) is hopeless with this lens, misses focus a lot of the time. It works well with my other lenses though.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 7, 2017)

scottkinfw said:


> If you join CPS they may loan you a lens while yours is getting fixed?
> 
> sek



I don't meet the requirements for the gold CPS membership (which loans gear), it would require another 5D or 1D series and another L lenses for me to be eligible.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 7, 2017)

Mancubus said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Mancubus said:
> ...



There is always a tolerance, nothing is perfect. However, Canon sets the tolerance for lenses and the camera body such that even in the worst case, they meet the specification. 

No matter how well a lens is packed, there are some that arrive damaged. Roger at Lens Rentals is able to document and track this because every lens is checked before shipping, but some arrive at the customer with AF accuracy being messed up. Shipping takes a toll.


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 8, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> No matter how well a lens is packed, there are some that arrive damaged. Roger at Lens Rentals is able to document and track this because every lens is checked before shipping, but some arrive at the customer with AF accuracy being messed up. Shipping takes a toll.



When shipping, the lens usually goes inside a case, which is heavily padded by itself and then surrounded with foam.

Unless the box takes a drop from the 3rd floor, I don't believe it can really mess up the AF. Isn't high end photography equipment supposed to be tough? 

I bet these NatGeo photographers have to endure a lot of harsh conditions to get some of those nature shots, pretty sure the lenses and cameras take some bumps now and then, but they are still able to deliver tack sharp images.

I am starting to believe that only the people that "matter" have their equipment serviced the proper way, because the camera companies know they will lose significant reputation if they screw up. However, for the rest of us, we get mediocre service (depends on where you live). After all, if they don't fix my equipment properly (after a MONTH!) there is not much I can do besides ranting on the internet and having the equipment sent in again for another month.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 8, 2017)

Mancubus said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > No matter how well a lens is packed, there are some that arrive damaged. Roger at Lens Rentals is able to document and track this because every lens is checked before shipping, but some arrive at the customer with AF accuracy being messed up. Shipping takes a toll.
> ...



The 70-200 is rugged, but they do not come in a hard case, and should not be shipped to Canon in their storage case, which is not a whole lot of protection from shipping.

Photographers normally ship their equipment by air in large hard cases, not by UPS like rental companies and ordinary people do. So, if you ship it in a large case, go to the airport and have it sent by air freight, and have someone pick it up, there is less chance of damage.

My wife used to work in a Post Office. She told me that when the boss was out, some of the men had contests kicking packages across the large room to try and land them in the hampers. They kept trying until it went in. Damage cam be accumulative, each of the many 10 ft drops a parcel goes thru can add or lossen parts until they are damaged.

Not every item shipped is damaged, but the percentage is higher than people want to believe. I run a online business shipping sensitive electronics and use extreme packaging, but even so, a percentage get damaged.


----------



## drmikeinpdx (Sep 8, 2017)

I've sent a few lenses to Canon due to focus issues. Typically, they try an "electronic adjustment" first and send it back to you. If that doesn't work, send it back, they will try it again and it still won't work right. On the third attempt, they may give it to a tech who knows how to take the lens apart and fix things like loose zoom assemblies and decentered elements, which can't be fixed with electronic adjustments.

You really have to be persistent.

I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but the next time I send a lens in for the second time, I will include a note requesting that the lens be sent to a tech who knows how to fix mechanical problems.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 9, 2017)

drmikeinpdx said:


> I've sent a few lenses to Canon due to focus issues. Typically, they try an "electronic adjustment" first and send it back to you. If that doesn't work, send it back, they will try it again and it still won't work right. On the third attempt, they may give it to a tech who knows how to take the lens apart and fix things like loose zoom assemblies and decentered elements, which can't be fixed with electronic adjustments.
> 
> You really have to be persistent.
> 
> I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but the next time I send a lens in for the second time, I will include a note requesting that the lens be sent to a tech who knows how to fix mechanical problems.



There is always that issue. 99% of the problems are mechanical, even electrical issues turn out to be mechanical but on a tiny scale.


----------



## Mancubus (Sep 9, 2017)

drmikeinpdx said:


> (...)send it back, they will try it again and it still won't work right. On the third attempt, they may give it to a tech who knows how to (...)



That's exactly what I mean by being "unimportant". Just like me, you are a powerless consumer who they can afford to treat like a fool. 

I bet they would think twice before doing that if the lens belonged to a famous youtuber or a big media company.

If I was living in a country like the US I'd take this to court. Unfortunately in Thailand it doesn't really work that easily and I would end up with a lost case and more expenses. 

I've read about Nikon here and the tech support is even worse. So my plan to sell everything and get a D850 is probably not going to happen.


----------

