# Extreme macro question



## Andy_Hodapp (Nov 23, 2014)

So I've been using my 5d mkii and sigma 105mm macro for macro photographs but recently, I've found myself wanting to go beyond 1:1. I know there are many ways to go above 1:1 and I would like a little help on deciding how to do it. Should I go with extension tubes on my sigma? Should I reverse a prime onto the front of my sigma? Today I held up my Helios 44m-4 in front of my sigma and got some cool shots. If I do go with a reverse ring, do I extend one or both of the lenses to their closes focus or do I keep them at infinity?



IMG_1822 by Andy Hodapp, on Flickr




IMG_1816 by Andy Hodapp, on Flickr


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## Al Chemist (Nov 23, 2014)

You might try attaching a canon 500D close-up lens. I used that on the 100L with some success...focus distance is pretty short though. I used this for this dragonfly. Fortunately it was cold and he was lethargic!


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## cooltigers (Nov 23, 2014)

you can try canon 65mm


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## Bennymiata (Nov 23, 2014)

Use your live view to find out which focus setting is best, but start with both at infinity.

You can use as many extension tubes as you like, and they won't degrade IQ, but you may need to focus manually if the tubes don't have contacts or if you use 2 or more tubes.

Hand holding your camera at more than 1:1 and getting shake free photos is challenging and your DOF will be razor thin.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 23, 2014)

To take seriously above 1X Macro, Canon MP-E65 is the safest choice, although it is expensive and difficult to handle.

You can spend a lot less with extension tubes, keeping in mind that:
Macro lens like 105mm request long tubes, as a set of three pipes simultaneously.

Lenses like Macro 180mm ask very long tubes, but allow a greater distance to the object photographed. In this case, you could use several sets of three tubes simultaneously, or make a long tube with water pipe and the front and rear bayonet.

Pancake lens will have a dramatic increase in magnification with a set of three tubes.

Search videos on Youtube to see these options I mentioned above.


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## lol (Nov 23, 2014)

If your lens supports it, you can use a teleconverter. I prefer this over extension tubes as you retain working distance and focus range.

Also it is untrue that extension tubes wont degrade image quality. Well, it may not be noticeable at moderate amounts, but you're pushing the lens out of its designed operating region. For example, if you try this on the 50mm f/1.8 you will find massive field curvature quite quickly. Combined with the quick loss of working distance I'm not a particular fan of this approach, but certainly it is a low cost option.

The MP-E65 does what it is supposed to, but lighting it has always been the biggest problem for me, and that would be an area you would need to put effort into.

If you want serious magnification, you can always buy a microscope with DSLR adapter. These adapters aren't just mechanical, but better ones include corrective optics. With my particular microscope, I get horizontal field of views of about 1.2mm and 0.3mm with 10x and 40x objectives respectively on APS-C sensor. In lens equivalent magnifications, that would be about 19x and >70x! Of course the subjects will be limited here, as you will have near zero working distance and depth of field! I really should get better at focus stacking...


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## DFM (Nov 23, 2014)

There's no "best" method, as it depends what you can sacrifice (effective aperture, DoF, setup time, etc.). The most important advice I'd give it to abandon all hope of using AF with extreme macro - in most cases it's much easier to move the camera or subject on a macro stage than to try and focus. There's a reason the MPE-65 has no AF or IS. If you're stacking images the control you get from a stage is far superior to turning the focus ring. I'll sometimes use Magic Lantern's focus stacker to drive an AF lens if I don't have any other stuff to hand, but it's gnarly.

Reversing a short prime directly onto the body is the simplest arrangement and lets the most light through. You need an old manual lens with a mechanical aperture ring though - it's where Nikon users get to smile - a lot of macro shooters buy old film SLR lenses on eBay.

Reversing a short lens on the front of a longer one gives higher magnification but at a cost - if the combination isn't right you get vignetting, and there's a major reduction in light. The highest magnification is where the body lens is a long tele (focus at infinity) and the reversed element is a short prime (also at infinity) - but go too far and the focus point ends up against the glass.

As a rough guide, here are some measurements I took using a 7D, SMC 50mm, 70-200mm, 2x TC, macro tubes and a 17mm fisheye. The table shows lenses attached from the body (left) to the subject (right), and 'R' shows a reverse mount.


LensesFocal distance (mm)Frame width (mm)50mmR10032TC 50mmR10017tube68 50mmR5011tube36 50mmR6024tube20 50mmR7021tube68 TC 50mmR808.5TC tube68 50mmR456TC 70mm 50mmR158TC 200mm 50mmR153tube68 TC 200mm 50mmR103200mm 17mmR403TC 200mm 17mmR401

That last row sounds awesome, but your DoF is around 0.01mm so you need a microscope stage to adjust it (and a very dead subject). You can actually shoot through a microscope objective lens (mounted into a hole in a spare body cap) - it's a fiddly process, but by using a planar objective you preserve focus across the frame so it's easier to stack.


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## Al Chemist (Nov 23, 2014)

I thought you might want a fairly inexpensive approach. I'm new to this and I uploaded the picture of the dragonfly from my iPad. Here is a cropped version of just his head...should show the detail. If not, it is because I have no idea what I'm doing.  The other picture was not a good upload.

Camera was a 7D with 100 L /f2.8 using a 12mm extension tube and the 500D close-up lens with a step-up ring. I found the benefits were not good enough because of the short focus distance.


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## Joey (Nov 23, 2014)

AI Chemist, that's an amazing photo you took, especially considering the lash-up you used!

OP, reversing a prime in front of a telephoto is a great way to get high quality greater-than-life-size macro photos without investing a fortune. In 35mm terms, a 50mm large aperture prime reversed in front of a 135mm telephoto is a good combination and gives a 2.7x magnified image on the sensor. Changing the focus position of the reversed lens doesn't have the desired effect, you can focus to some extent with the lens mounted directly to the camera but you'll find your range of focus is pitiful. Mount the whole assembly on a focussing rail and focus by moving the assembly backwards and forwards using that. Ebay is your friend.

You may as well leave both lenses set to infinity, in which case the subject distance will be the same distance from the rear (now the outer) element of the lens as the sensor would normally be if the lens was mounted on the camera. You'll want your reversed lens to have as large an aperture as possible because there will be considerable loss of light and vignetting. You'll need to use a small aperture on the other lens just to get any depth of field at all, and that will help with the vignetting problem. But the combination will function as a highly corrected macro lens and you should be pleased with the results.

Years ago you could buy an adapter ring specifically for doing this - with filter threads on both sides so you could attach the two lenses together. I remember making one myself with a couple of discarded filter frames and some Araldite.

Of course there's no subtitute for having the right tools and in this case the right tool is the MP-E65. A focussing rail will make it easier to use. Also a macro ring lite of course.


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## candc (Nov 23, 2014)

this guy uses a very simple setup to get some of the best macro photos i have seen. 

http://petapixel.com/2014/11/21/bob-ross-bug-photography-returns-solid-overview-macro-workflow/


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## Andy_Hodapp (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies. Was trying out the same set up again and found that when the sigma body lens was at its minimum focus distance, there was not vignetting. I think I'm just going to get a $10 reversing ring on Amazon for right now and see how things go.



Double reverse lens macro double stack by Andy Hodapp, on Flickr

Shot handheld on Canon 5d mkii with Sigma 105mm macro at f/22, Helios 44-4 reversed in front. Yongnuo YN-560 ii with Cowboy Studios remote flash triggers for lighting. Two shots stacked in Photoshop CS6 and tweaked in Lightroom 5.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 24, 2014)

Andy_Hodapp said:


> . I think I'm just going to get a $10 reversing ring on Amazon for right now and see how things go.


 
Be aware that you need the ability to stop a lens down when using a reversing ring, so that limits you to older lenses with manual aperture rings plus a method to stop them down. I find that a M42 lens with a eos adapter on it can be used with a reverse ring. The EOS adapter holds the aperture pin in, so that the aperture will stop down.


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## Andy_Hodapp (Nov 24, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Andy_Hodapp said:
> 
> 
> > . I think I'm just going to get a $10 reversing ring on Amazon for right now and see how things go.
> ...



This was taken with a Sigma 105 and a helios 44-4 which is a M42 mount. I hacked it so that I can always adjust the iris. Should I stop down the Helios instead of the sigma when shooting?


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