# Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 7, 2013)

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<strong>*UPDATE 2*</strong>


The battery does help a camera body autofocus an EF lens faster.</p>
<p>From Chuck Westfall… <em>“In addition, the EOS-1D X achieves a higher lens motor drive speed with select L-series USM telephoto lenses than the 5D Mark III because of the 1D X’s more powerful battery pack.”</em> [<a href="http://www.arihazeghiphotography.com/AH_CW_interview/" target="_blank">source</a>]</p>
<p><em>Thanks Edwin</em></p>
<p><strong>*</strong><strong>UPDATE*</strong></p>
<p><em id="__mceDel">Some discussion has come up about AF performance being affected by battery voltage. The LP-E4 style batter in the 1D series is 11.1 volts, while the LP-E6 is 7.2 volts. I do not have the technical papers of the relationship between voltage and AF performance on for EF lenses. If such an article exists, I would love to see it. We were passing on information that came to us from a new source.</em></p>
<p><strong>What to expect?</strong>

We’ve received some interesting information about the development of the EOS 7D Mark II.</p>
<p>We’re told at least one variation of the camera being developed has an integrated grip, really making it a “Baby EOS-1D X”. We’re told that the larger battery seen in the EOS-1D X is part of the reason it will autofocus bigger lenses better than a camera with say an LP-E6. If this is going to be targeted at sports and wildlife photographers, the bigger battery makes a lot of sense. I would expect the camera to be somewhat smaller, as the mirrorbox and prism wouldn’t need to be as large. It’s sounding like Canon is really going to test how much people are willing to spend on an APS-C body.</p>
<p>It is a 2013 camera by all indications, most likely the late summer/early fall.</p>
<p>No other specifications were mentioned.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2013)

Integrated grip and a high-density AF sensor? Very, very interested. Throw in noticeably better high ISO performance than the current 7D and I'm sold...


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## Mehmetski (Mar 7, 2013)

It is very interesting and very hard to believe. Canon can be a BIG game changer if it can release such a camera.


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## SDsc0rch (Mar 7, 2013)

sounds "good" - fun


dont "need" it - but would definitely "want" one  


would get it eventually I'd say.. 
8)


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## bseitz234 (Mar 7, 2013)

Mehmetski said:


> It is very interesting and very hard to believe. Canon can be a BIG game changer if it can release such a camera.



I think this would be a game changer IF it comes in under $2.5k. If the initial release price is much more than that, then it'll just be a case of moving the 7d up in the marketplace, which really isn't remarkable. Moving the featureset up and keeping the price reasonable (note I consider $2k or $2100 reasonable, in this case) would be the market-defining move.


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## docsmith (Mar 7, 2013)

This could make a lot of sense. But it does not sound like a $2,000 camera body. I'd expect a "mini-1Dx" to be significantly more than $2k. We may learn a lot with the 70D announcement. If the 70D has the features of the current 7D (with a few enhancements) and is priced ~$1,400-$1,700 it will look like Canon is setting up the 7DII to be a "mini-1Dx."

This path would make both the 70D and 7DII very interesting cameras with distinct niches. Wow. I'll be impressed.


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## HarryWintergreen (Mar 7, 2013)

At last something to write home about by Canon!


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## docsmith (Mar 7, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> Mehmetski said:
> 
> 
> > It is very interesting and very hard to believe. Canon can be a BIG game changer if it can release such a camera.
> ...



You mean to potentially be the replacement of the 1DIV? Maybe not remarkable, but a very interesting and, assuming some other improvements, a very desirable camera to many photographers.


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## garyknrd (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Integrated grip and a high-density AF sensor? Very, very interested. Throw in noticeably better high ISO performance than the current 7D and I'm sold...



+1


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## TW (Mar 7, 2013)

hjulenissen said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > integrated grip
> ...



+1

Deal-breaker for me. Would be a shame; I've been looking forward to a replacement for my 7D purely for improved noise & DR. Everything else about the camera suits me perfectly, including the size and shared battery with my 5Dii. If I wanted a boat anchor, I'd buy a 1Dx. 
Oh well, it appears we'll get a chance to learn about the 70D first, and then see what happens with the 7D. :-\


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> I think this would be a game changer IF it comes in under $2.5k.



It almost certainly will not be that cheap. I'd expect a camera that's billed as a 'mini 1D X' to be priced in the $3500-$4000 range.


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## docsmith (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> bseitz234 said:
> 
> 
> > I think this would be a game changer IF it comes in under $2.5k.
> ...



That sounds about right on the price. Although it really depends on features. If it has new sensor tech that is very impressive, I could see it coming in over $4k. Rehash of the same sensor technology, but with 1DX AF system, great weather sealing, maybe 24 MP, then ~$3k. 

From a structure standpoint it would put the 5DIII and the 7DII beneath the 1Dx at about the same price point with the 5DIII being FF aimed at event and portrait photographers and the 7DII being aimed at sport/wildlife photographers.


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## robbymack (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> bseitz234 said:
> 
> 
> > I think this would be a game changer IF it comes in under $2.5k.
> ...



Absolutely. The thing that caught my eye was "mini 1dx" that to me should read, "it's going to be expensive". I think the price point of the 70d when released should tell us where the 7dii will slot in.


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## pierlux (Mar 7, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> We’re told at least one variation of the camera being developed has an integrated grip



So there is at least another with optional detachable battery grip: I would prefer this one.



Canon Rumors said:


> We’re told that the larger battery seen in the EOS-1D X is part of the reason it will autofocus bigger lenses better than a camera with say an LP-E6.



Which means using 2xLP-E6 in the grip should allow the same autofocus performance, and, I would add, should also allow driving a burst speed of 12+ fps, a feature which would draw even more current than a big lens AF. Again, I'd rather have the opportunity to choose whether to configure a fully performing camera or to go light if needed.

Whatever the production model will be, I'm confident the 7DII is going to be a monster camera. Now let's hope the sensor performance will be up to the expected amazing specs.  But I'm figuring its release not earlier than 2014.


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## dstppy (Mar 7, 2013)

$3500-$4000 range will be fine IF the 70D ends up being a 'replacement' for the 7D/50D . . . especially price-wise.

I highly suspect that, once these two are announced that rebel owners are going to seriously agonize over what to purchase when the 7D becomes absurdly cheap, vs. new, more expensive cameras. (think new 5DmkII under $1500)


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > bseitz234 said:
> ...



Could be. There's logic to having it come in a bit cheaper than the 5DIII MSRP. 



pierlux said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told that the larger battery seen in the EOS-1D X is part of the reason it will autofocus bigger lenses better than a camera with say an LP-E6.
> ...



No, dual LP-E6 ≠ one LP-E4N. With two batteries in a grip, the voltage output of them is not added, they are used in an alternating sequence. The 1-series bodies drive lens AF motors faster because the battery delivers a higher voltage. 

It should have nothing to do with the fps, either - adding a grip to a dSLR isn't required for higher frame rate AFAIK (although it was with film bodies to drive the film winder faster). Even with Nikon bodies where the grip provides a higher frame rate, there's a firmware hack that enables that higher frame rate without the grip, i.e. the higher frame rate with grip is a Nikon marketing ploy to sell an expensive accessory.


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## Maui5150 (Mar 7, 2013)

Sounds like a killer camera. I skipped the 5DMKIII in favor of keeping my 5DMKII and have slowly been saving up for the 1Dx - the 5DMKIII just was not enough of a leap to justify.

Now the 7DMKII - would be nice to have some reach back. As long as it has awesome AF, decent ISO, could be a real winner. I like the integrated grip, that saves me $100 going aftermarket or $250 going Canon and I have had a grip on my camera for as long as I can remember. 

Price. Will have to see. Not sure I can see Canon pricing the 7DMKII more the the 5DMKIII.

I am not thinking a $2K camera, but probably in the $2599 to $2899 range

Real tempting for pre-sale, but thinking if it is close to rumored specs and anywhere close to my range estimate, then likely hunt for holiday sale


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## mbj68 (Mar 7, 2013)

Integrated battery and a dual memory card slots (CF and SD) and I am defintely in!


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## Stichus III (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Integrated grip and a high-density AF sensor? Very, very interested. Throw in noticeably better high ISO performance than the current 7D and I'm sold...





Jackson_Bill said:


> improved high iso performance - mandatory
> more focus points - nice to have
> integrated grip - not so much. More weight and my LowePro 600 is pretty heavy as it is with the old 500 in it.



They really need to improve on image quality and noise performance at all iso's.


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## RGF (Mar 7, 2013)

Glad Canon has finally decided that the prosumer (none 1D-series) bodies/consumers deserve serious tools. With the demise of the APS-H sensor I feel abandon by Canon. I want something with more reach than a FF body - 500mm is long enough for me, 600 is a challenge to travel with (not to mention to hand hold, ...).

A great [professional] APS-C camera would be wonderful - couple this with the [hopefully] soon to be released 200-400 body, and Canon has a winning combination


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## dadgummit (Mar 7, 2013)

Hmmm, this does sound quite interesting. It sounds like this camera will be positioned to have better features than the 5D3 just with a crop sensor. If it is using the 1D battery it will have to have a 1D body. Add the extra FPS and (Hopefully) a sensor that can cope with low ISO noise, I cannot see canon pricing this less than the5D3. I am guessing it will come in right around $3,500. That way most of us will complain about the price but they will still be sold out for months anyway because all of the sports and bird photographers will line up to put in their orders. Then like the 5d3 the price will come down to more reasonable ($2,800 street price with occasional $2,500 sales) levels.


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## pedro (Mar 7, 2013)

docsmith said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > bseitz234 said:
> ...



Ooops. Quite a price. Will be intresting how much high ISO improvement in IQ there will be in such a crop body compared to a 5D/6D


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## Maui5150 (Mar 7, 2013)

dadgummit said:


> Hmmm, this does sound quite interesting. It sounds like this camera will be positioned to have better features than the 5D3 just with a crop sensor. If it is using the 1D battery it will have to have a 1D body. Add the extra FPS and (Hopefully) a sensor that can cope with low ISO noise, I cannot see canon pricing this less than the5D3. I am guessing it will come in right around $3,500. That way most of us will complain about the price but they will still be sold out for months anyway because all of the sports and bird photographers will line up to put in their orders. Then like the 5d3 the price will come down to more reasonable ($2,800 street price with occasional $2,500 sales) levels.



You can already get the 5DMKIII for just a little over $2500

Has Canon ever prices a higher number series more than a lower number? 

i.e. in the 1D > 5D > 7D chain and same down to the 60D etc

My guess is the FPS will be around 10, the ISO useable at 6400 and and 12800 / 25600 expansion giving the 5DMKIII a little better ISO and the 1Dx faster fps and more ISO


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## RS2021 (Mar 7, 2013)

I have never considered the integrated grips as a plus. A *truly* integrated grip as those in the 1 series is actually a major gripe of mine.


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## bseitz234 (Mar 7, 2013)

I dunno, this all sounds like it would make a great camera, but it doesn't seem like a logical step from the 7d, at least in my eyes. Don't get me wrong, I see the point of releasing a sort of followup to the 1d series, but integrated grip and price well north of $3k sounds like it should be a "4d" or whatever you want to call it- a 1dV, so to speak. That was is so much of the beauty of the 7d- manageable size and weight, and a very attractive price. Sure, this would be a great camera for sports/wildlife shooters, but it seems to be getting too close to the 1dx and too far from the 7d. If this is really the 7d2 that goes into production, upon the announcement I'll immediately go buy more LP-E6es and another 7d, and be set for a long time...

Also, I can't help but mention the two things that no one else has: this is one of many prototypes, and it's a CR1. So honestly, I'm not too worried about the fate of the beloved 7d line just yet.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2013)

Stichus III said:


> They really need to improve on image quality and noise performance at all iso's.



True, but it's all relative. I consider anything over ISO 400 to be 'high ISO' on the 7D. 



RS2021 said:


> I have never considered the integrated grips as a plus. A *truly* integrated grip as those in the 1 series is actually a major gripe of mine.



This is one of those 'less filling/tastes great' debates with no right answer. For people who don't routinely use a grip, an integrated grip just adds weight and bulk they don't want/need. For people who do routinely use a battery grip, the integrated grip is a plus compared to the add-on (no flex so it's much better for tripod shots; better ergonomics, for example the second multicontroller on the 1D X is ideally placed, and it's location falls right at the junction of the 5DIII with it's grip, so it's in a different place on the BG-E11).


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## RS2021 (Mar 7, 2013)

Anyways, as rumors go, this is rated only as a CR1....

We are still waiting for that CR2 rated 35L II and 100-400 II that made appearances several times over the years. 

Relax... enjoy the winter.


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## RLPhoto (Mar 7, 2013)

10 FPS.

61-point AF W/ spot metering per focus point.

High Voltage for faster AF.

Integrated Grip.

1D Weather sealing.

New Sensor tech.

Expect a ridiculous price tag.


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## ehouli (Mar 7, 2013)

The actual 7D is a great camera and really like it's AF. What drives me mad is the noise even at ISO 200, the benefits of the 18mp resolution for cropping is not worth. 

I don't think Canon will have better sensor technology readily available with lower noise... I'd have preferred that they made a whole new 18mp sensor with better noise handling and really improved DR that the actual 7D is lacking, at least they should come close to what the Nikon D7000 (not the D7100) did with 16mp to have something to be called Updated.


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## distant.star (Mar 7, 2013)

.
This is in line with what I wrote here on a sunny Sunday last June:

Predictions based on generalized long-term knowledge of the history of technology with neither scientific basis nor specific speculation. Intended only to provoke thought and discussion. If you're response is that I'm an idiot, fine, I'll say that right up front and save you the trouble. So...

1. The Canon EOS 1DX (if it ever becomes reality) is the last 1-Series flagship DSLR Canon will ever make. Like the EOS 1V was/is the last 35mm film SLR from Canon, the 1DS will be the last DSLR. Like the 1V it will be around a long time. Its "obsolesence buffer" will be plenty of room for "upgrading" through software application.

2. A new "flagship" version of the APS-C line will be introduced (e.g. a 7D2), and like the 1DX it will be the final flagship of the APS-C line. It also will be around a long time and see upgrades through software. Given Canon's predilection for super pricing I predict it will be over $2500 U.S. And most people who have a 7D today will buy one! It will seem spectacular.

Meanwhile, Canon will lead a transition to new formats that require far less mechanical apparatus than the traditional SLR. I'll leave speculation about exactly what that may be to others.

That's what I said, and I'm sticking with it. The only adjustment I may make is to shift the initial price upward, probably over $3K, hard as that is to imagine.


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## KarstenReis (Mar 7, 2013)

With this seemingly being marketed as a wildlife/sports camera, can Canon include f/8 center autofocus points to this like they do with the 1DX and soon to be 5D III? I think the DX format Nikons can autofocus at f/8. Would there be anything stopping Canon from implementing this on the 7D II other than policy or firmware?


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## bseitz234 (Mar 7, 2013)

distant.star said:


> .
> This is in line with what I wrote here on a sunny Sunday last June:
> 
> Predictions based on generalized long-term knowledge of the history of technology with neither scientific basis nor specific speculation. Intended only to provoke thought and discussion. If you're response is that I'm an idiot, fine, I'll say that right up front and save you the trouble. So...
> ...



as long as that new segment they move to after this round of DSLRs still works with my EF lenses, I'm OK with that. ;-) 

who knows, maybe I'll "downgrade" to an 80d, if I ever move out of this 7d...


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## docsmith (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> RS2021 said:
> 
> 
> > I have never considered the integrated grips as a plus. A *truly* integrated grip as those in the 1 series is actually a major gripe of mine.
> ...



This is also what makes the potential of the 70D interesting. It could be "less filling" (no grip) version of the "tastes great" (grip) 7DII. 

All in all, this has me pretty excited for the 70D announcement (wasn't before). We've heard all sorts of rumors about the 70D essentially taking over the slot currently held by the 7D. If that proves true then the 7DII can become the "replacement" for the 1DIV.


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## pierlux (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



Neuro, I'm not mentioning voltage at all, instead I said 'current'. I think the two batteries in the grip are not 'used' in an alternate sequence, they are used simultaneously. Actually, inserting two discharged batteries, both incapable of even letting you switch the camera 'on' when used alone, will let you switch the camera 'on' and even shoot photos. It's the shutter count per battery that is calculated in an alternate sequence, being not possible to show 1/2 increments per battery, which would be nonsense. They are connected in parallel, so the voltage is the same, but are capable of delivering double the current of a single battery, i.e. 3200 mA instead of 1600. Moreover, the voltage used by the camera components is neither 11.1 V nor 7.2 V. The voltage is adjusted to 3.3, 5, 12 or higher, or whatever the electronics need, prior to be 'feeded' to circuits, sensor, motors etc. It's a matter of power (Watts), which is the product of electrical potential difference (Volts) x electric current (Ampere). You can feed the inverter with whichever V x A combinations (within certain limits) and, provided the input power is enough, the camera will work.

Actually, when 'speccing' a battery, the nominal voltage indicated usually corresponds to the voltage of the fully charged battery. During use, the voltage drops until it reaches a minimum that doesn't allow the inverter to produce enough power to drive the camera. If we measure the voltage of, say, a LP-E6 with 30% power remaining, the voltage is no longer 7.2V, but much lower. Nevertheless, the camera still works.

The higher frame rate with grip is NOT a Nikon marketing ploy to sell an expensive accessory, it's a safety measure which prevents the battery from overheating and the camera from running at a performance below the specs. There's a hack, but it's not totally safe: a sub-perfect Li-ion battery may explode. Sure, it's not probable, but it's not impossible, either. The hack works as long as the battery charge holds, then bye bye. It is what it is, a hack.

To summarize, I'm still convinced that a single LP-E6 batt can't drive a big white AF + IS and simultaneously drive a 12+ fps burst, but two of them would, indeed.


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## RS2021 (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> RS2021 said:
> 
> 
> > I have never considered the integrated grips as a plus. A *truly* integrated grip as those in the 1 series is actually a major gripe of mine.
> ...



I happen to agree the grip can be quite useful for some. Even for those like me who loath it, some lenses are clearly better balanced on the 1 series. 

Perhaps my take on it is based on shooting style... I personally have nothing over 400mm and that too just as a zoom that rarely sees use. I find the 70-200 2.8II heavy and too obvious and usually opt for the f4 which is only slightly less so... there was a time when I felt the 35L was too showy. 

Even if I don't need to shoot at high speed or may not be partial to longer focal lengths, I may still want the perks the 1DX offers on the 5D3 (true AF coupled metering would be high on my list)...as things stand, my intern uses the 1DX while I favor the smaller body. There is really limited middle ground if one wants to move up the feature list without having to deal with the bulk and the grip.

Still, these are not major issues and I think we are spoilt for choices in the Canon camp.


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## Pitbullo (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Integrated grip and a high-density AF sensor? Very, very interested. Throw in noticeably better high ISO performance than the current 7D and I'm sold...



I hope this will come through. If so, Canon takes the 7D to a truly professional level, way beyond the old 7D. I like that, and an integrated grip on an APS-C camera is new. Canon need to get back to be innovators, not followers as they have been for a little while.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2013)

pierlux said:


> Neuro, I'm not mentioning voltage at all, instead I said 'current'. I think the two batteries in the grip are not 'used' in an alternate sequence, they are used simultaneously. Actually, inserting two discharged batteries, both incapable of even letting you switch the camera 'on' when used alone, will let you switch the camera 'on' and even shoot photos. It's the shutter count per battery that is calculated in an alternate sequence, being not possible to show 1/2 increments per battery, which would be nonsense. They are connected in parallel, so the voltage is the same, but are capable of delivering double the current of a single battery



Makes sense. However, empirically the single battery of a 1-series does drive the lens AF motor faster than the pair of batteries used in a grip. This is evident when a 'slow focusing' lens like the 85L II (where the focusing group movement is visible and slow enough to be easily seen) is focused from MFD to infinity on the 1D X vs. a gripped 7D, with fresh batteries. I'm not sure about the electronic basis for the difference in AF speed (current draw or firmware), but the difference is there.


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## jrista (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Integrated grip and a high-density AF sensor? Very, very interested. Throw in noticeably better high ISO performance than the current 7D and I'm sold...



Ditto! Very exciting...


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## ishdakuteb (Mar 7, 2013)

jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Integrated grip and a high-density AF sensor? Very, very interested. Throw in noticeably better high ISO performance than the current 7D and I'm sold...
> ...



i am in for one if new 7d mark ii matches above description


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## Sabaki (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm a little concerned that the 7Dii may be too expensive for us Canonites not residing in a major country. 

When you guys say $3500, it equates to R40 000 (South African rands). Can you guys imagine paying $40k for a camera?

I will say that this is shaping up to be a remarkably appealing camera, with those suggested specs. 
I am also very strongly in the camp that believes ISO performance must improve. ISO 800 or 1600 relatively noise free images should be a reality. 

I also find the marketing of this camera fascinating. Canon has to balance it's performance against the 5D mkIII & 1DX but have a capable entry against Nikon's model. 

I'm eagerly looking forward to this camera but I'm cringing at the potential price!


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## jrista (Mar 7, 2013)

RS2021 said:


> Anyways, as rumors go, this is rated only as a CR1....
> 
> We are still waiting for that CR2 rated 35L II and 100-400 II that made appearances several times over the years.
> 
> Relax... enjoy the winter.



Sure, but we 7D fans need all the juicy tidbits we can get while we wait! ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2013)

Sabaki said:


> When you guys say $3500, it equates to R40 000 (South African rands). Can you guys imagine paying $40k for a camera?



Makes no sense. It's not $40K, it's R40K. How about paying 192K for a camera? That's how many rupees equate to $3500. How about *34 million* rupiah for a camera, if you were paying in Indonesia? It's all relative.


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## RS2021 (Mar 7, 2013)

jrista said:


> RS2021 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyways, as rumors go, this is rated only as a CR1....
> ...



You poor saps...when are you ever gonna cotton on ;D ;D


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## pierlux (Mar 7, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> *UPDATE 2*
> The battery does help a camera body autofocus an EF lens faster.
> From Chuck Westfall… “In addition, the EOS-1D X achieves a higher lens motor drive speed with select L-series USM telephoto lenses than the 5D Mark III because of the 1D X’s more *powerful* battery pack.”



Exactly, power, i.e. V x A = W.

1 x LP-E4N is 11.1 V x 2450 mAh = 27.195 Wh
2 x LP-E6 is 7.2 V x 1600 mAh x 2 = 23.040 Wh

27 Wh vs. 23 Wh, not much of a difference, but it's there.

[edited: W --> Wh, thanks BruinBear & jrista!]



neuroanatomist said:


> ...the single battery of a 1-series does drive the lens AF motor faster than the pair of batteries used in a grip. This is evident when a 'slow focusing' lens like the 85L II (where the focusing group movement is visible and slow enough to be easily seen) is focused from MFD to infinity on the 1D X vs. a gripped 7D, with fresh batteries. I'm not sure about the electronic basis for the difference in AF speed (current draw or firmware), but the difference is there.



Very interesting. I couldn't check myself, never owned an integrated grip body. The nerdy geeky monkey inside me stirs, seeking an explanation for this behavior. Maybe the power pack downstream the battery, which is also different for the two cameras, is responsible. Thanks a lot for checking and reporting, Neuro!


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## RGF (Mar 7, 2013)

ishdakuteb said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I would say I am holding my breath for this beauty, but I would long dead by the time it comes. Never-the-less my 1D M4 is getting much use (though less now that I have the 5DM3) and it is time to consider updating it

I have shot the 5DM3 with and without the grip and besides from the added weight and bulk in the camera bag, I prefer the grip (fits better in my hand, vertical controls are worth the weight, ...).

ISO performance similar to 5DM3 (even at 18 MP) would be great.


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## asposium (Mar 7, 2013)

out of interest, how many people use a grip on their 7D mark 1 that don't want a want an integrated grip on the 7D mark 2?


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## RGF (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanks for the interesting and enlightening discussion of dual, lower voltage batteries. I was wondering about how they worked together.


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## insanitybeard (Mar 7, 2013)

asposium said:


> out of interest, how many people use a grip on their 7D mark 1 that don't want a want an integrated grip on the 7D mark 2?



As somebody who owns a 7D at the present, I would prefer to be able to choose whether to use a grip or not (I do not own a grip for my 7D). I prefer the more compact size of the gripless body for portability whilst hiking/travelling etc. Having said that, if the 7D update pushes it towards full on sports and wildlife territory as the rumours suggest, with price to match, I will not be buying it. I shoot landscapes more than anything so the coming 70D may be better suited. Or I may consider stumping up for a 6D.... would love a 5D III but just can't justify the cost.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 7, 2013)

pierlux said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > *UPDATE 2*
> ...


You missed the point, battery capacity has little effect, its the current driving the lens motor, and that is based on the voltage and resistance using ohm's law E=IR.

Given the same internal resistance of the lens motor, the current would be about 11.1/7.2 times larger or 1.52 times as much current going thru the motor. Presumably the internal resistance of the bigger battery is lower, so it would have little effect.

That will drive the motor much faster.


----------



## bseitz234 (Mar 7, 2013)

About the batteries-

There's a big difference between amps and mAh. mAh is milliAmpHOURS, or the amount of current that battery could put out for an hour. That's different from the measure of the number of amps the battery can provide in an instant of draw from the camera...

Edit: Mt. Spokane beat me to it...


----------



## asposium (Mar 7, 2013)

(lens) motors require torque to move lens elements

motor torque is related to voltage

increase the available voltage, increase the motor torque, speed up lens drive


----------



## RS2021 (Mar 7, 2013)

Sabaki said:


> When you guys say $3500, it equates to R40 000 (South African rands). Can you guys imagine paying $40k for a camera?



As Neuro said, everything is relative.

Even here, to put it in perspective, if someone happens to be a "minimum wage" earner and that is a good many invisible souls here in the US... after ancillary deductions, $3500 would be ~4 or 5 months’ worth of their earnings if they don't eat or pay rent...

In fact, $3500 in the US is still a significant amount of money and is beyond justifiable reach for a large spectrum of middle class earners with common obligations...those with families, bills, kids, college funds, mortgages...it is also beyond justification for many small businesses who struggle to pay commercial rent, taxes, utility and insurance bills, and salaries.

For many new graduates it would be at least 3 or 4 months’ rent. 

Don't assume it is easy anywhere....most of us nutty addicts on CR may give the impression that "wonder gear" at any cost is justifiable... 

Justifiable, may be... practicable or achievable...not always. And thankfully so....as it makes us cherish what we do have.


----------



## pierlux (Mar 7, 2013)

asposium said:


> out of interest, how many people use a grip on their 7D mark 1 that don't want a want an integrated grip on the 7D mark 2?


Since I have expressed a preference for a detachable grip, I feel impelled to circumstantiate my choice. I have a 5DII with grip which is on 90% of the time. Occasionally, I remove it and go light with a single lens, which is a great advantage sometimes, IMO. Plus, I can delay the grip purchase, diluting the expense over time. Moreover, while I can imagine Canon charging $ 3500-4000 for an integrated grip body, though crop, I don't think they'll dare asking as much for an ungripped body + grip, it's a matter of psychology, also. That said, I'd go for the integrated grip if that'll be Canon's offer and sure won't complain!


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> It almost certainly will not be that cheap. I'd expect a camera that's billed as a 'mini 1D X' to be priced in the $3500-$4000 range.



No, the 1D4 and all had larger mirror boxes, 1.25-1.3x crop sensors and times have changed. Not that it will be 7D launch price either of course.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I thought the Nikon's drained the batteries really quickly with that hack? I don't know though, don't have Nikon so never looked into it much.

I never understood why they didn't make an alternate battery for the 7D/5D3 grips that would let them drive AF like a 1 series. Nikon provides alternate special batteries for grips.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > When you guys say $3500, it equates to R40 000 (South African rands). Can you guys imagine paying $40k for a camera?
> ...



exactly (that said, the effective pain of the price probably is less in the US than in RSA but it is certainly not an order of magnitude)


----------



## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > It almost certainly will not be that cheap. I'd expect a camera that's billed as a 'mini 1D X' to be priced in the $3500-$4000 range.
> ...



We'll see (actually, we probably won't, since this is a CR1 rumor after all). But if it's really a mini-1D X, I suppose it depends on how you define that. If that means performance like the 1D X in most of the top line parameters (fps, AF system, etc.) but with a crop sensor, that may well come in at $2500 or $3000. But I was thinking more along the lines of a 1D IV with a crop sensor - long shutter durability, 1/300 s Xsync, the tank-like build and sealing of the 1-series to go with the integrated grip, etc. Canon has demonstrated that they're quite willing to charge high prices. 

I do think my viewpoint is more in line with the previous comment about it being not a 7DII but a 4D, or whatever. But I admit, I'm just wishing out loud for the feature set that appeals to me...


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## KyleSTL (Mar 7, 2013)

Just a crazy thought, but could Canon produce a camera without battery grip that uses the LP-E6 battery at 7.2V, and have an optional battery grip which uses the LP-E4N battery at 11.1V? That way the people that desire a smaller camera, with a battery interchangable with their 5D3 and 7D are happy, as well as the people that want a faster-focusing camera with the battery grip, higher shots/charge, and interchangability with 1D X. How big would an add-on battery grip need to be in order to accomodate the larger battery? Much larger than a BG-E7 (7D) or BG-E11 (5D Mark III)?


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## mrsfotografie (Mar 7, 2013)

asposium said:


> out of interest, how many people use a grip on their 7D mark 1 that don't want a want an integrated grip on the 7D mark 2?



I have grips on both my 5D MkII and the 7D, but sometimes I like to travel light/go compact or simply have to remove a grip if I want to carry both in my bag. So a removable grip is a big plus IMHO.

Fwiw, I never actually have 2 batteries in the grip at the same time, never had the need for it even when shooting motorsports all day (prefer to change a battery and save a little weight).


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 7, 2013)

KyleSTL said:


> Just a crazy thought, but could Canon produce a camera without battery grip that uses the LP-E6 battery at 7.2V, and have an optional battery grip which uses the LP-E4N battery at 11.1V? That way the people that desire a smaller camera, with a battery interchangable with their 5D3 and 7D are happy, as well as the people that want a faster-focusing camera with the battery grip, higher shots/charge, and interchangability with 1D X. How big would an add-on battery grip need to be in order to accomodate the larger battery? Much larger than a BG-E7 (7D) or BG-E11 (5D Mark III)?



That was my point. I'm pretty sure Nikon even allows that with the same grip, you can either stuff it with regular little ones or a pro large battery. I never understood why Canon didn't allow that. That said it is not something I've looked into much.


----------



## pierlux (Mar 7, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...


I don't think I'm missing the point, the point is the lens motor is powered neither at 11.1 V nor at 7.2 V. It is powered at a voltage which I don't know, but which is undoubtedly the same whichever body you are using whith whatever battery voltage/number of batteries you are using. The lens is NOT powered directly from the battery, but from a circuit which delivers constant voltage whichever body/battery combo you are using.

Sure, the internal resistance of a big battery is lower than that of a smaller one, but resistance comes to play only when you exceed a certain current absorption from the battery so that the battery itself is no longer able to supply the nominal voltage. When you read the battery specs, say, 7.2 V - 1600 mAh, the internal resistance of the battery has already been taken into account, you don't have to worry about that. And when the battery performace declines, it is exactly the battery's internal resistance which increases, giving you a lower voltage even at a low current absorption. 

When you're using your camera, you're draining power from the battery which is generally lower than the max power the battery is capable of delivering, otherwise I would claim bad engineering. That's why we are discussing about the possibility for the 7DII to drive simultaneously a big lens AF and IS plus a 12+ fps burst either with a big batt or two smaller ones. But, again, it's a matter of power (W), not simply voltage alone, or current alone. Should only voltage matter, nothing would prevent a camera maker to equip their products with 24 V or 36 V power supplies...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2013)

pierlux said:


> I don't think I'm missing the point, the point is the lens motor is powered neither at 11.1 V nor at 7.2 V. It is powered at a voltage which I don't know, but which is undoubtedly the same whichever body you are using whith whatever battery voltage/number of batteries you are using. The lens is NOT powered directly from the battery, but from a circuit which delivers constant voltage whichever body/battery combo you are using.



If the lens motor was receiving the same power from a 1D X and a 7D, then the AF speed for the lens would be the same with both bodies. But it's not, it's faster with the 1D X.

Could it be firmware trickery on the part of Canon, the 7D delivers the same power as the 1D X, but the 7D just tells the lens to AF slower? Possible, I suppose...but that seems a little too cynical, even for me.


----------



## sagittariansrock (Mar 7, 2013)

docsmith said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > bseitz234 said:
> ...



I don't feel that distinction will be possible any more with the 5DIII having a decent burst rate and excellent AF system. When Canon had 1DIV and 5DII as the second tier below 1DsIII, then 5DII aimed at event and portrait and 1DIV aimed at sports/wildlife made sense. But now, people will probably not favor a 1.6 crop priced higher if they can get the 5DIII to work for sports/wildlife reasonably while being excellent for event/portrait, all the time being cheaper.

There are both pros and cons of the 7DII being a mini-1Dx to me, the former involving better ergonomics and the latter mostly involving size/weight and price. However, if 70D fills the niche of an advanced general-purpose APS-C body and pushes 7DII to a pro body exclusively for sports and wildlife, I am fine with that. All I care about is the current 7D setup (all of it) with good performance at high ISOs.
Except, it feels like a step backwards- what will Canon achieve with a low-light capable, excellent AF, fast frame-rate APS-C body- didn't they have all that in an APS-H body in the 1DIV already? What can be gained additionally other than the ability to use EF-S lenses?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 7, 2013)

KyleSTL said:


> Just a crazy thought, but could Canon produce a camera without battery grip that uses the LP-E6 battery at 7.2V, and have an optional battery grip which uses the LP-E4N battery at 11.1V? That way the people that desire a smaller camera, with a battery interchangable with their 5D3 and 7D are happy, as well as the people that want a faster-focusing camera with the battery grip, higher shots/charge, and interchangability with 1D X. How big would an add-on battery grip need to be in order to accomodate the larger battery? Much larger than a BG-E7 (7D) or BG-E11 (5D Mark III)?


 
What you are asking for is a dual voltage camera. There is more to a camera than just a lens motor, and, for example, the LCD backlight is just one of the things that is designed for a specific voltage.

Its certainly possible to put in voltage regulators to reduce the voltage to components that use a low voltage, and I'm sure that it is done for many components in a camera.

However, it really makes little economic sense to go to the extreme of designing a dual voltage camera and then charging a near 1 series price for it, just get a 1 series camera that is optimized for the 11.1 volt battery.


----------



## Sabaki (Mar 7, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Sabaki said:
> ...



You guys are missing the point. But hey, if you need to be that way then cool.


----------



## KyleSTL (Mar 7, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > Just a crazy thought, but could Canon produce a camera without battery grip that uses the LP-E6 battery at 7.2V, and have an optional battery grip which uses the LP-E4N battery at 11.1V? That way the people that desire a smaller camera, with a battery interchangable with their 5D3 and 7D are happy, as well as the people that want a faster-focusing camera with the battery grip, higher shots/charge, and interchangability with 1D X. How big would an add-on battery grip need to be in order to accomodate the larger battery? Much larger than a BG-E7 (7D) or BG-E11 (5D Mark III)?
> ...


Yeah, I saw your post after I posted the comment. There is one battery grip Nikon makes that does what you're saying - the MB-D10 (D700, D300, D300s) - and it can use the following power:
(1) EN-EL3(e) - 7.4V 1500mAH
(1) EN-EL4(A) - 11.1V 2500mAH [must use optional BL-3 accessory]
(8) AA batteries - 11.2V (NiMH) or 12V (alkaline/lithium)

However, I don't like that Nikon has different framerates for the difference power sources (especially given that Canon achieves similar results with the lower voltage).


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## c.d.embrey (Mar 7, 2013)

> We’re told at least one variation of the camera being developed has an integrated grip, ...



An intergrated grip is a deal-breaker for me. I need small and light, that's why I use a crop body instead of FF. I've used a 5D3, it's a great camera but too big and heavy for me -- not something I want to hold all day.

I'll wait and see what the 70D has to offer before buying. A camera is just a tool, and the best tool for me may now be a Sony a77 or a Panasonic GH3.


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## V8Beast (Mar 7, 2013)

If Canon puts a 61-point AF system off of the FF 1Dx/5d3 on a crop sensor, does that mean it will cover a larger percentage of the frame? If so, I'd imagine that you could get the 61-point system to cover a massive percentage of an APS-C sized frame. 

Having more AF points is great, but what I really love about the 61-point AF system on the 5D3 is that it covers SO much more of the frame compared to the 5DC and 5D2. This is such a nice luxury if you frequently shoot subjects that aren't centered in the frame.


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## facedodge (Mar 7, 2013)

*What if Canon leaks all these different rumors and uses our comments as a free focus group session?*


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## BruinBear (Mar 7, 2013)

pierlux said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > *UPDATE 2*
> ...



mAh is a measure of electrical charge and not max current output :-X


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## RS2021 (Mar 7, 2013)

I think Canon will put forward an affordable camera in 7D2...~$2500 at introduction perhaps even a tad lower...a price that tracks down with time to ~$2000 or even ~1900 (gasp! WHAT!? NO?....yes!) 

This is based on the assumption we are talking about 7D2 and its intended mass market and not the 4D or 3D etc.

Given that the original 7D cycle has stretched a few years now, and the pent up interest to buy is there for original users, I think they have the potential to sell a lot of units...*IF* it is priced right.

IF they miss the price mark...and offer some super-duper camera which is out of reach of many current 7D users, they have a problem... accolades and admiration by few who buy and can afford it and envy and apathy by many who can't... never paid no bills at Canon 

In such a case they will have to make embarrassing "Adorama ebay sale" kind of backdoor price reduction (5D3 anyone?) moves to bring the price in line with market forces to move enough units. Bring it down a bit, and they sell more units to easily off-set even the price reduction.

One should expect the 7D "preorder" price to be high (duh! It is targeted toward a certain kind of sap...er...I meant user). Look at the price trajectory of 6D in just the past few months... and it has not settled into its "real" target price yet...give it few more months.

So the intended target price for 7D may well end up being $2000 just few months after release in which case they cannot really pack it with high-end 1DX features in earnest. 

Again, we are talking about 7D successor here, not a would-be 4D candidate. Canon is a conservative company. No risky market experimentation or bold moves usually...

_So 7D2 will be a sensible camera at a sensible price._


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## bseitz234 (Mar 7, 2013)

RS2021 said:


> I think Canon will put forward an affordable camera in 7D2...~$2500 at introduction perhaps even a tad lower...a price that tracks down with time to ~$2000 or even ~1900 (gasp! WHAT!? NO?....yes!)
> 
> This is based on the assumption we are talking about 7D2 and its intended mass market and not the 4D or 3D etc.
> 
> ...



God I hope you're right. I was getting worried I was the only one expecting/hoping this would be where they'd take a 7d2...



facedodge said:


> What if Canon leaks all these different rumors and uses our comments as a free focus group session?


hahaha I'd be lying if I said this didn't occur to me... great use of Keanu, though.


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## jrista (Mar 7, 2013)

Sabaki said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



The real point is that each country has different laws regarding the import, taxation, and regulation of products like cameras and the components they are made up of. There is a real-world actual cost to make these things, and an essential profit margin the company has to make in order to stay in business and remain competitive, while also needing to make sure the product conforms to regulatory concerns in MULTIPLE target locales...which can have a significant impact on cost, inflating the price in all countries (such as whether or not they need to conform to, say, regulations regarding batteries...it wouldn't matter if the US did not require more stringent battery regulations...the fact that Japan does forces an increase in design costs that is ultimately levied on consumers from all countries.) 

In Japan, that minimum required price might be 280,000 yen, which translates into $3000 USD. The cost in another currency, however, would be that core cost plus whatever additional import taxes and costs related to regulation exist in the target country. It's for this reason that many electronics devices like phones and tablets cost several times as much in a country like Australia as they do in the US. The increase in cost is not always just due to the exchange rate, there are often significant and burdensome taxes and regulatory limitations/costs that factor into higher prices in other countries.


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## woollybear (Mar 7, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



You are confusing power and energy.


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## Drum (Mar 7, 2013)

Nikon would Just love the 7D mk 2 to be 3k, would make the d400 pretty easy to sell ;D (and yes I am a Canon user, but also a realist!!!!!!!)


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## aznable (Mar 7, 2013)

if this news is true, it will push the price of used 1d mk iv down


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## zim (Mar 7, 2013)

UK intro price £3175
A new production line sensor will be a gravy train for Canon


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## RS2021 (Mar 7, 2013)

Drum said:


> Nikon would Just love the 7D mk 2 to be 3k, would make the d400 pretty easy to sell ;D (and yes I am a Canon user, but also a realist!!!!!!!)



Canon knows which side of their bread is buttered... for reasons I discussed few posts earlier, it is likely 7D2 will come in under 3K...well under probably. 

If Canon priced their cameras based on clueless fanboys drooling over gear while living in their parents' basement playing dungeons and dragons and wondering about Taylor Swift's bra size... we would be living in an alternate universe with Minolta as king of the market


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## lol (Mar 7, 2013)

The maximum current you can take from a battery is generally proportional to the battery's capacity in (m)Ah. Internal resistance is the killer as you try to take more current. That will cause a voltage drop, so you get less power out than you think. Unfortunately that power is released as heat inside the battery. Too much of that is not a good thing! As a designer you would probably lean towards worst case here. You're in the middle of Africa at noon on a sunny day, with a big white lens and making use of servo AF tracking the wildlife as it moves around... in that condition, the system still needs to operate safely. Normal shooting may therefore appear to have more headroom than is given.

If you have two batteries in parallel (assume they're perfectly balanced for now), you just doubled the current you can take compared to a single battery. Or, for the same draw as a single battery, the current you take from each is halved and you gain a little efficiency.

As for driving the AF faster or not, I'd be surprised if the power wasn't regulated between battery and lens, and voltage converters can be very efficient these days. The AF speed is likely a system feature involving both body and lens, such that in use the power drain due to AF is kept in a safe region. More power available means it may be able to command faster AF. I certainly wouldn't base predictions on the assumption that the motor would be a resistive load and how that responds to varying voltage.



Anyway, the integrated grip isn't my thing anyway, and here I have to wonder if its a name game. If indeed the 70D is going upmarket, could that take over where the current 7D sits? Only then could a 1D level and spec body become more possible for a 7D successor. But still, I find calling that a 7D mk2 tough to swallow. I think that would deserve a new model number. 2D, 3D, 4D are still available, as are variations of the 1D name. I don't think it could be 8D or 9D since that would be positioned lower than 7D.

Assuming the rumoured announcement of the 70D is soon, the form the 70D takes will serve as guidance as to what may be offered in a 7D position, or 1D like position. My gut feeling is if the 70D leap-frog the 7D in spec and takes its place, then the integrated grip APS-C starts to make sense. If the 70D doesn't exceed the existing 7D, then I feel the 7D mk2 will be normal bodied.

I just can't imagine something called 7D mk2 being integrated grip, but it could exist as another name.


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## kphoto99 (Mar 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> If the lens motor was receiving the same power from a 1D X and a 7D, then the AF speed for the lens would be the same with both bodies. But it's not, it's faster with the 1D X.
> 
> Could it be firmware trickery on the part of Canon, the 7D delivers the same power as the 1D X, but the 7D just tells the lens to AF slower? Possible, I suppose...but that seems a little too cynical, even for me.



This is something that has puzzled me about saying the lens is doing the AF. The lens does not have the AF points and it does not see the image, so how can "the lens" be doing AF. 
As far as I can understand this, the camera is doing the AF and is telling the lens motor to rotate the lens to bring the image into focus. If I am wrong, please point me at something that explains it. I have read the generic description of the AF process, just nothing that would correspond to the notion that the lens is doing the AF.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 7, 2013)

woollybear said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > pierlux said:
> ...


 
How am I confusing it??

We are talking about autofocus speed of a lens, and the fact that a higher voltage drives the motor faster. The higher voltage generates more current in the motor which generates more torque and rotates or moves it faster.

Battery capacity does not move a motor faster.


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## lastcoyote (Mar 7, 2013)

not read everybody's replies but personally I would be very surprised if the 7D MK II will have a built in battery grip à la 1DX. just can't see that happening really. i much more see it as the crop equivalent of the 5D line. the only way it differs and is more like the 1DX in terms of intended use is the high fps. of course i may have to eat my words but still, it would surprise me.


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## pj1974 (Mar 7, 2013)

RS2021 said:


> Drum said:
> 
> 
> > Nikon would Just love the 7D mk 2 to be 3k, would make the d400 pretty easy to sell ;D (and yes I am a Canon user, but also a realist!!!!!!!)
> ...



^THIS is gold!! ;D LOL.

And I agree, the 7DmkII will most likely come out quite well under $3,000 US (and hopefully in some they can be purchased at lower prices). 

I bought the 7D very soon after it came out, so I paid a bit of a premium for that, but I wanted the camera then - and I haven't looked back. It's a great all round performing DLSR.

At this stage I don't necessarily need a replacement / upgrade to my 7D, but if the 7DmkII has features and image quality that really impress me, then I will consider buying it soon.

Paul


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## Sabaki (Mar 7, 2013)

jrista said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...


LOL!!! I do apologise for my 3rd world intellect!

I'm no expert but I've done a fair deal of importing in my day. Game consoles, controllers, music etc. I've bought everywhere from the US to the UK, Hong Kong, Australia, Japan and a few other places. So I have a slight idea how markets work. 

Imagine...imagine is what I said.


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## RS2021 (Mar 7, 2013)

It is amazing how continued feeding and responding to aspects of a thread that have gone off on a tangent only results in comebacks that never end. Just saying...


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## RS2021 (Mar 7, 2013)

pj1974 said:


> At this stage I don't necessarily need a replacement / upgrade to my 7D....
> 
> Paul



That's what they all say at first... keeps the wife from poisoning them till it is too late ;D ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 7, 2013)

kphoto99 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > If the lens motor was receiving the same power from a 1D X and a 7D, then the AF speed for the lens would be the same with both bodies. But it's not, it's faster with the 1D X.
> ...



Focus is achieved by the movement of element group(s) within the lens. Canon EF lenses have a motor within the lens that moves the focusing group. The 1-series bodies are able to drive that motor faster. The camera tells the motor in the lens how far and which direction to move.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 7, 2013)

kphoto99 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > If the lens motor was receiving the same power from a 1D X and a 7D, then the AF speed for the lens would be the same with both bodies. But it's not, it's faster with the 1D X.
> ...


 
You are correct in part, there is a additional factor.
The camera body uses battery voltage to power the lens motor. If the voltage applied to the lens motor is higher, it moves the lens to its calculated focus point faster. This results in overall faster autofocus. The time for the lens to move into focus is part of the overall focus timing. 

The dedicated AF processor in the camera body that tells the lens where to move also is a even more critical part in AF timing. Given the same internal processor in two bodies (5D MK II and 1D X, the motor voltage (current) determines which camera will focus faster.

The 5D MK II focuses faster than previous bodies because of the internal processor speed. It even beats the 1D MK IV (which has higher battery voltage) due to the much better AF processer in the body.


----------



## dadgummit (Mar 7, 2013)

RS2021 said:


> I think Canon will put forward an affordable camera in 7D2...~$2500 at introduction perhaps even a tad lower...a price that tracks down with time to ~$2000 or even ~1900 (gasp! WHAT!? NO?....yes!)
> 
> This is based on the assumption we are talking about 7D2 and its intended mass market and not the 4D or 3D etc.
> 
> ...




It is sounding to me that the 70D is moving up to become the 7D replacement. The 7D2 is then free to become a replacement for the 1D bodied APSH cameras for sports shooters.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 7, 2013)

Drum said:


> Nikon would Just love the 7D mk 2 to be 3k, would make the d400 pretty easy to sell ;D (and yes I am a Canon user, but also a realist!!!!!!!)


There is no D400, and if it is announced, we do not know if they will price it higher than the $2K that the D300 went for. And, if you had to pay more to add a grip... The 7D was lower priced and stole the D300 market at $1800. However, don't worry, they will not be far apart in price, I'd expect within $100 of each other. They likely know what each other is planning by now.

Lenses are the thing that a camera buyer should be concerned with more than a body that will be obsolete in 1-3 years. Good lenses cost a lot more, and last a lot longer. Nikon is way overpriced on lenses, their repair service is painfully slow. Thats part of the overall system and not just a body.

Take the Nikon 24-120mm f/4. At $1300, it does not touch the Canon 24-105mmL that typically sells for $879, and even less as part of a kit. Nikon has finally announced a new 80-400mm zoom that appears to be a tad better than the very old Canon 100-400mmL, but it goes for a huge price, $1300 more. Canon has a huge advantage in lenses due to the big inventory of used quality lenses available. Top used Nikon lenses are difficult to find used for reasonable prices.

And, a Canon body includes some very good software which is extra cost from Nikon. Add it up, and the price heavily favors Canon, and the majority of buyers do go for price.


----------



## pj1974 (Mar 7, 2013)

RS2021 said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > At this stage I don't necessarily need a replacement / upgrade to my 7D....
> ...



 Phew... that sounds scary! Yes... well in my case I am not married - I'm divorced (but I don't believe photography had anything to do with that). Therefore at this stage I have no reason for poisoning fears when I am considering photography equipment... 

Having written that, I have a secure and decent paying job, and I don't spend a fortune on photography equipment... I prefer to use more of my money for more important things: eg projects to benefit people, etc.

Maybe if I do remarry one day... I'll take more things into consideration... however I'll tackle that when I come to it - and with a degree and background in accounting, I generally don't have troubles with sensible budgetting. 8)

Come-on new technology... it's always a good thing!

Paul


----------



## Lee Jay (Mar 8, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> We’re told at least one variation of the camera being developed has an integrated grip, really making it a “Baby EOS-1D X”.



That would instantly make it a non-starter for me, as the integrated grip is the main reason the 1-series is so entirely uninteresting to me. I rarely need it, I have little hands, and it has to fit in my current bag or I won't buy it no matter what its specifications or performance.


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## jarrieta (Mar 8, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> There is no D400, and if it is announced, we do not know if they will price it higher than the $2K that the D300 went for. And, if you had to pay more to add a grip... The 7D was lower priced and stole the D300 market at $1800. However, don't worry, they will not be far apart in price, I'd expect within $100 of each other. They likely know what each other is planning by now.
> 
> Lenses are the thing that a camera buyer should be concerned with more than a body that will be obsolete in 1-3 years. Good lenses cost a lot more, and last a lot longer. Nikon is way overpriced on lenses, their repair service is painfully slow. Thats part of the overall system and not just a body.
> 
> ...



Excellent point. As a newbie these factors came into play when I was deciding which "system" to go with. Eagerly waiting what Canon comes up with next. I am not buying a new body soon (still learning everything I can with a Rebel) the 70d, 6d or 7d2 will probably be within my price point after the holidays.


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## Chosenbydestiny (Mar 8, 2013)

The assumption that the 7D will have an integrated grip based on this tidbit of information is hilarious. Could it be that they're just hinting on a newer, smaller, battery with a slightly higher voltage? Come on, the LP-E6 is a good battery but it's also been out for quite awhile now =P


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## Maui5150 (Mar 8, 2013)

Chosenbydestiny said:


> The assumption that the 7D will have an integrated grip based on this tidbit of information is hilarious. Could it be that they're just hinting on a newer, smaller, battery with a slightly higher voltage? Come on, the LP-E6 is a good battery but it's also been out for quite awhile now =P



You have the support and detail backwards... 

Reading what was posted.... the variation in the wild has an integrated grip... and the info about the battery is support, perhaps causation, and most likely conjecture.

It is not "Hey, it will use larger batteries... Wonder if they will need more room, i.e. integrated grip"


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## Don Haines (Mar 8, 2013)

Maui5150 said:


> Chosenbydestiny said:
> 
> 
> > The assumption that the 7D will have an integrated grip based on this tidbit of information is hilarious. Could it be that they're just hinting on a newer, smaller, battery with a slightly higher voltage? Come on, the LP-E6 is a good battery but it's also been out for quite awhile now =P
> ...



It is normal that prototypes of electronics take more space than the finished project. It is very possible that a prototype 7D2 would be given an integrated grip yet the production model will not. That a protype with a larger case exists means nothing for what the final version will have.


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## pierlux (Mar 8, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think I'm missing the point, the point is the lens motor is powered neither at 11.1 V nor at 7.2 V. It is powered at a voltage which I don't know, but which is undoubtedly the same whichever body you are using whith whatever battery voltage/number of batteries you are using. The lens is NOT powered directly from the battery, but from a circuit which delivers constant voltage whichever body/battery combo you are using.
> ...


The lens receives both a power line and signal lines from the camera 'Quality' of signals are different for sure, coming from different camera subsystems running different AF routines. But if a lens is designed to be powered at a certain voltage, differet bodies should deliver the same DC output to the lens in this respect, regardless of the main battery specs. So, as far as *AF* is concerned, it is not only possible, but even reasonable that, although receiving the same power from the 1Dx and 7D, a lens focuses faster on a 1Dx. Rather, I would be surprised of the opposite. But I can't explain myself how focusing should be faster under the test conditions you described previously when focusing *manually* by wire, at least that's what I understand you did with your 85mm L II, please correct me if I misunderstood you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I don't believe you, and thanks again for reporting, there's just something I'm missing...



neuroanatomist said:


> Could it be firmware trickery on the part of Canon, the 7D delivers the same power as the 1D X, but the 7D just tells the lens to AF slower? Possible, I suppose...but that seems a little too cynical, even for me.


There are a couple of interesting articles by Roger Cicala from LensRentals which, although dealing with AF accuracy and precision, may partly justify also the improved AF speed.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-ii-1-vs-2-and-old-vs-new

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras#more-8458

Something tells me you already know these articles. : It appears to be a matter of old vs. new, 5DII/7D vs. 1DX/5DIII/6D, maybe both hardware and software. I truly believe it's not a matter of battery voltage, rather it may be the camera subsystems which drive the lens' AF.

So, paraphrasing your words, we may suppose that _the 7D delivers the same power as the 1D X, but the 1D X just tells the lens to AF faster_. Put this way, the statement turns from cynical to logical.



BruinBear said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...


Well, English is not my native language, so I apologize if I'm not using the correct technical terms for physical quantities, I'm translating those terms straight from my language, so forgive my eventual lack of precision. But let me say 'electrical charge' is a totally different thing, and its SI unit is the Coulomb, not A or Ah. I guess you are referring to the battery capacity, or the total amount of energy it can store, so your statement should be rephrased: '_mAh is a measure of the amount of electrical charge and not max current output_'. Fine. Still, I don't understand where this conflicts with what I wrote.

Sure, a Li-ion battery rated 7.2 V @ 1600 mAh could deliver currents much higher than the nominal current (provided the chip inside allows it, I think it doesn't), but at a much lower voltage. If you short-circuit a non-chipped batt, the current flows massively, the batt overheats, the chemicals inside alter and you kill it. This is why the V + mAh spec of a battery are termed nominal voltage and nominal capacity. Someone better skilled than me in physics please chime in and explain better, I'm sure there is. But we're going a bit off-topic here, I think.


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## pwp (Mar 8, 2013)

hjulenissen said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > integrated grip
> ...



Definitely something for me then! Bolt on grips are a handy accessory, but do come with compromises. It's simpler for designers to refine the ergonomics of an integrated package. Compare the handling and ergonomics of any 1-Series body vs a gripped 5D3 for example. No contest. No argument. A fully integrated design will generally come in a little smaller & lighter, have better weather sealing and a tripod screw that goes straight into the actual body, not a skinny, plastic grip bottom panel. I had a 5D tripod thread pop out of the grip when it was under pressure. Messy.

A high voltage, pre-gripped 7DII? Yum! This is the body for action shooters bemoaning the demise of APS-H.

-PW


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## jrista (Mar 8, 2013)

pierlux said:


> BruinBear said:
> 
> 
> > pierlux said:
> ...



I think the point BruinBear was trying to make was that you are _conflating charge capacity with current flow_. The term mAh is a measure of charge capacity over a period of time, and is not synonymous with mA, the actual current. The only time you would actually draw 27.195W is in the first moment of usage assuming you maximize the cameras' power draw for a moment. Actual voltage drops a little from the rated voltage, so on average you might, at full draw for some camera that actually needs 2.45amps, pull say 10.8V at 2.45A, for a power draw of 26.5W. I do not know of any reason you would be limited to 2450mA maximum current, however. Assuming you drained the battery in 30 minutes at 10.8v, you could draw ~5amps, or 53W! 

Lithium battery voltage drops from the maximum rating to a slightly lower average during usage, peters off until it eventually drops off below a minimum safe level at which point a properly designed battery will usually shut off and stop supplying power. The math above is idealistic for constant power draw over a fixed period of time, and not actually representative of actual power draw by a camera in use. I honestly not sure what the actual power draw of a Canon 1D X is, however it is not continuous at a constant level...it bursts when the shutter is pressed, then drops to a lower ambient level. 

Burst power draw in a 1D X, assuming max shutter speed, full AF drive of a 600mm f/4 L II lens, while tracking a moving subject, at full-size RAW+JPEG writing to two separate cards concurrently, could likely draw more than 26W. Assuming you actually draw 3400mA for a period of 8 seconds of continuous shooting like that, followed by idle draw of 20mA for 5 seconds, that would be say 10.8v times 3.4A for 0.002222 hours (36.7W over 8 seconds), 10.8v time 0.02A for 0.0014 hours (0.22W over 5 seconds), so ~37W, or 0.82Wh. (I've completely ignored resistance here...I don't know what kind of resistance you'ed have in something like the 1D X.)


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## nicku (Mar 8, 2013)

I said 1 year ago about the 7D2 with integrated grip. If canon will release such a camera... they will hit the jackpot regarding sales... even if the price will be around $2500.


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## ichbins (Mar 8, 2013)

asposium said:


> (lens) motors require torque to move lens elements
> 
> motor torque is related to voltage
> 
> increase the available voltage, increase the motor torque, speed up lens drive



Thats definitively wrong. Canon uses USM motors and the torque of this motors isnt related to voltage.
I cant imagine why a higher voltage should accelerate a USM motor.


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## ddashti (Mar 8, 2013)

The "pro" APS-C side sounds quite interesting. I wonder how the current "non-pro" 7D owners would think of the price difference.


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## Stu_bert (Mar 8, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> kphoto99 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



So that was always my understanding until I read this in the 400mm mk ii review over at TDP

Quote:

The 400 f/2.8 IS II has received some AF upgrades from the 400 f/2.8 IS I - new dedicated AF algorithms and a new high-speed CPU. How well they work is of course what is important.


So does this not indicate more intelligence in the lens. Anyone know for sure??


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## CanNotYet (Mar 8, 2013)

lol said:


> Anyway, the integrated grip isn't my thing anyway, and here I have to wonder if its a name game. If indeed the 70D is going upmarket, could that take over where the current 7D sits? Only then could a 1D level and spec body become more possible for a 7D successor. But still, I find calling that a 7D mk2 tough to swallow. I think that would deserve a new model number. 2D, 3D, 4D are still available, as are variations of the 1D name. I don't think it could be 8D or 9D since that would be positioned lower than 7D.
> 
> Assuming the rumoured announcement of the 70D is soon, the form the 70D takes will serve as guidance as to what may be offered in a 7D position, or 1D like position. My gut feeling is if the 70D leap-frog the 7D in spec and takes its place, then the integrated grip APS-C starts to make sense. If the 70D doesn't exceed the existing 7D, then I feel the 7D mk2 will be normal bodied.
> 
> I just can't imagine something called 7D mk2 being integrated grip, but it could exist as another name.



Easy. Three characters: 7-D-X. ;D


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## pierlux (Mar 8, 2013)

jrista said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > *Someone better skilled than me in physics please chime in and explain better, I'm sure there is*. But we're going a bit off-topic here, I think.
> ...


jrista, I was indeed thinking of you or Neuro when I wrote the highlighted sentence above, ha ha! Thanks for clarifying!


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## pierlux (Mar 8, 2013)

Stu_bert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Focus is achieved by the movement of element group(s) within the lens. Canon EF lenses have a motor within the lens that moves the focusing group. The 1-series bodies are able to drive that motor faster. The camera tells the motor in the lens how far and which direction to move.
> ...


EF lenses are full of electronics. It's not by accident Canon system is named EOS (Electro Optycal System). Neuro is right, and Bryan at TDP also. The camera tells the motor in the lens (via the lens' electronics which include a new high-speed CPU running new dedicated AF algorithms) how far and which direction to move.
I've already linked an article dealing with this which includes a significant picture, here it is again:
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras


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## sfunglee (Mar 8, 2013)

asposium said:


> out of interest, how many people use a grip on their 7D mark 1 that don't want a want an integrated grip on the 7D mark 2?



I did use grip wif my 7d most occasion... more firm and weight balance ratio with tele lens


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## sfunglee (Mar 8, 2013)

Referring to new battery issue... 8)

My question, did you guys ever use the "AA" batteries (6 pieces) tray into grip when your LP-E6 run out? Any different in focusing??? Sometimes i use good batteries like Energizer, sometimes I used my Eneloop from 580EXII... Basically I dun feel any lag in focusing...


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## pierlux (Mar 8, 2013)

sfunglee said:


> Referring to new battery issue... 8)
> 
> My question, did you guys ever use the "AA" batteries (6 pieces) tray into grip when your LP-E6 run out? Any different in focusing??? Sometimes i use good batteries like Energizer, sometimes I used my Eneloop from 580EXII... Basically I dun feel any lag in focusing...


Quite often, actually. Sanyo Eneloop. Never noticed differences in focusing speed or accuracy/precision, but I have a 5D II which, although having a very good center focus point, is not a champion with respect to keeper rate. Pros: you save a lot of money and have a higher capacity vs a single LP-E6 which enables a longer operating time. Cons: you miss the battery info, overall weight is (just a bit) higher and symbol in the LCD display indicates only full (4 bars) and half (2 bars) capacity; after that, the camera switches off without first showing 1 bar or the empty box.


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## tomscott (Mar 8, 2013)

I find it really hard to feel Canon have the tech to produce a high performing APC sensor right now. Unless that is the reason they have left a larger time scale between the products.

I really hope that I am wrong. Going from the 7D to 5DMKIII was a massive leap for me. But I cant go back to use a 7D as a second body, that 18mp sensor just doesn't cut it. 

Neither can I see the APC sensor matching the current FF in noise quality. It will come just not yet, I would say maybe 3-4 years time.

The whole APC line up seems old and lost to me, the whole range using the same sensor, with just small details of change. I will feel similar with the higher end stuff if they make the 7DMKII with this spec, all using the same AF and a similar MP count.

They need to sort out the whole line of cameras and put it back into order. If the 7DMKII is a pro camera and they replace the 7D with the 70D and do away with the 60D type enthusiast body camera and have the XXXD as it is but with a better sensor, upgrade path is the XXD to the 6D, then the higher end being the 5DMKIII 1DX and 7DMKII.

But then we have two fast cameras both weather sealed same AF similar FPS but one that gives more reach but lesser quality and one with more quality but lesser reach. Then the 5DMKIII for the event/document photographer.

Yet we still haven't got the high MP 1D performer. Not sure what their line up will be, atm it doesnt seem logical.

The 7D was never a cheap camera, it isnt for the average photographer it is for the more demanding prosumer/pro. It will never be aimed at the low end. People that complain on here are aspiring photographers who maybe cant justify the higher price tag, you are not the sector Canon are after. It was the same with the 5DMKIII, yet it is a hugely popular camera.

Just my 2p


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## asposium (Mar 8, 2013)

ichbins said:


> asposium said:
> 
> 
> > (lens) motors require torque to move lens elements
> ...



So, one the one hand I'm definitely wrong, but on the other you can't see that I am definitely wrong. Can't have it both ways.

A USM motor causes movement by setting up an oscillation. The amplitude of that oscillation could be a function of available drive voltage.


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## KarstenReis (Mar 8, 2013)

Regarding the integrated versus non-integrated grip, could Canon produce some with and some without? If they produce enough and sell enough this might offset the additional production costs of making two separate units as well as charging a little more for the integrated grip. It would be nice to offer a choice of configuration similar to what you have for cars, but not to the full extent. I think Canon has done something similar to this in the past with a film camera by having a better add-on grip but can't remember which one.


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## Maui5150 (Mar 8, 2013)

ddashti said:


> The "pro" APS-C side sounds quite interesting. I wonder how the current "non-pro" 7D owners would think of the price difference.



And so what is your point?

The non-Pros can go into the xxD line or the xxxD line depending on their preference.

Canon's line up makes a lot of sense to me.

At the top you have the 1D? line. 1Dx sits at the top with the split of the 1D and 1Ds lines doing the branching between Studio and ISO/Performance.

next level has been a 5D/7D split 5D for FF / portraits (more of a mini 1Ds) and the 7D aimed more at sports / landscape and their top Crop Sensor.

Heck in the Canon World, know a lot of pros who went with the 5DMKII and the 7D

Makes sense that we have a 1Dx and perhaps a 1DxS coming out to continue the performance / larger mega pixel split , and then 1 level down a 5D MKIII and a 7D MKII or 7Dx perhaps. 

For those little more price conscious, there is the 6D or the 60D, or 70D perhaps. 

Would not surprise me that Canon would look at the original 7D see it as a solid, but not quite pro camera and decide to step it up to really make it more of a Pro - King of the Crop in their line up on par with the 5D line just slightly less since it is crop and then let the Prosumers focus on the xxD line or have the 6D 

Really seems to me that the 7D is being split into two flavors, the 6D which is really just a small update to the 7D and then the 7Dx or 7D MKII which is more of the pro upgrade to the 7D


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## RS2021 (Mar 8, 2013)

tomscott said:


> Neither can I see the APC sensor matching the current FF in noise quality.



Oh no, you didn't...you just got jrista's dander up...he's gonna beat you up ;D ;D


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## AprilForever (Mar 8, 2013)

This is the kind of news I am lloking to hear! I like the thought of it being a baby 1dx. Canon, keep the 7D line epic, yet make it epiccer with an integreated battery grip! Maybe the 70D would be a little like the current 7D, and the 7D mk II would be something like the replacement of the 1d MK IV? Although, hopefully the camera doesn't cost more than 2750... If so, tis time to man up with the credit cards!!!


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## Chosenbydestiny (Mar 8, 2013)

Maui5150 said:


> Chosenbydestiny said:
> 
> 
> > The assumption that the 7D will have an integrated grip based on this tidbit of information is hilarious. Could it be that they're just hinting on a newer, smaller, battery with a slightly higher voltage? Come on, the LP-E6 is a good battery but it's also been out for quite awhile now =P
> ...



There's an uproar from many forum members over one copy, that's what makes it hilarious. It's a small chance that they do go live with that copy. From a marketing perspective, it seems like they'd go backwards in that sense. Bringing back the era of 1D and 1Ds lines but with new names and APS-C instead of APS-H.


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## icemanx (Mar 8, 2013)

I don't want to put it down too much simple but let's try:
P=Vi 
where "P" is power,"V" is voltage and "i" is the current. (Units of measure [Watt], [Volt], [Ampere] )
if we keep "i" costant, we have:
11,1 * i > 7,6 * i 
e.g. 11,1 V * 1A = 11,1 W > 7,6V * 1A = 7,6 W

The result is that a 11,1V battery can spin the lens motor phisically faster than a 7,6V battery,
if there are no differences in circuits, I mean, amplificantions, cuts, stabilizations etc etc etc, and obviously the lens must be designed to accept a certain range of potentials.
Things are not so simple, but this is only for exemplification purposes.


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## Don Haines (Mar 8, 2013)

icemanx said:


> I don't want to put it down too much simple but let's try:
> P=Vi
> where "P" is power,"V" is voltage and "i" is the current. (Units of measure [Watt], [Volt], [Ampere] )
> if we keep "i" costant, we have:
> ...



The stepping motors have a set resistance on the windings. It does not matter which camera or battery you are using.... the resistance stays the same.

The pertanant equation is P=E^2/R, or Power = Voltage times voltage divided by resistance. I don't know what the resistance is, so we can not compute what the power is, but we can calculate the ratio of power using an 11.1 battery against a 7.6 volt battery. We get (11.1*11.1)/(7.6*7.6) or 2.13.

A camera using an 11.1 volt battery has twice the power to drive a lens stepper motor than a camera with a 7.6 volt battery....... but remember that this is only one factor in AF speed.... there is how accurate the af sensor is, how fast the camera's computer can interpet the results, the search algorithm, and probably a dozen other things that I am unaware of. The battery voltage is just one part of a very complex system.


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## jrista (Mar 8, 2013)

sfunglee said:


> Referring to new battery issue... 8)
> 
> My question, did you guys ever use the "AA" batteries (6 pieces) tray into grip when your LP-E6 run out? Any different in focusing??? Sometimes i use good batteries like Energizer, sometimes I used my Eneloop from 580EXII... Basically I dun feel any lag in focusing...



When I've used alkalines, I've noticed a drop in performance. Alkalines have a continuous voltage drop over their lifetime, so you only really get "good" performance within the first few minutes. When I use Eneloop or Imedion LSD batteries, performance is FAR better, nearly or as good as the Canon batteries, and consistent until the last few minutes before the batteries become depleted. One thing I have noticed is that the Imedions (which I actually like a lot, more so than Eneloops, but the problem occurs with both brands) is that continuous shooting is not quite as fast. With the Canon battery at full charge, continuous shooting (assuming a fast enough shutter) is very good, very consistent, and I can keep shooting at about 2-4fps even after the buffer is full. With Imedion/Eneloop, continuous shooting tends to start lagging after a few seconds of sustained continuous, and buffer-full performance is not quite as good.


----------



## jrista (Mar 8, 2013)

pierlux said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > pierlux said:
> ...



Well, I kind of clarified it. There is still the resistance issue. Depending on the resistance, the amount of voltage or amps would have to change. I mean, if we assume 2ohms of resistance, at a 3400mA current, voltage would have to drop to 6.8V. That changes your power to 23W, not 36.7W, over that 8-second period. I don't really know what the resistance is. It could be much more, or much less. At 4ohms resistance, to draw 3400mA, you would need 13.6V...since the battery is 11.1, current couldn't be that high. Maximum current flow would be 2775mA with 4ohm resistance at 11.1V, or ~31W. Without knowing how power is drawn, how it may be transformed, what resistance may be involved, etc. (none of which we really could know without dissecting a 1D X and 7D, or getting ahold of official detailed specifications) we can't really know exactly how much power is drawn by either camera in heavy duty AF/tracking/continuous dual-card writing activities.

All we really can _know _is that, for any given resistance, an 11.1v battery can supply more power than a 7.6v battery, even if they have the same charge capacity.


----------



## K-amps (Mar 8, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> icemanx said:
> 
> 
> > I don't want to put it down too much simple but let's try:
> ...



Since the motors are USM, it means they are driven by an AC current rather than DC. (In this case >20kHz.)

Strictly speaking; AC motors/ transducers have an impedance, not a resistance.... An Impedance changes with Load and drive frequency (in this case torque needed to move an element) so the same motor may present a different impedance, there would be other factors like the angle of the load... all this complicates things a bit.

Seems that the Canon USM motors have a good spread of voltage tolerances, this would enable them to use similar motors (volume/ scale efficiencies) in many different lens designs... would also explain why the larger element lens may sometimes perform worse than their smaller brethren perhaps.

It should be fairly easy for Canon to tweak the control circuitry to deliver larger voltages in bodies with larger power supplies to drive some of these lenses AF quicker... more voltage would spin the motor faster (assuming current holds up).

Which begs the question....

Would you wear out a lens motor on a 1 series body; sooner than you would on a smaller body?


----------



## jrista (Mar 8, 2013)

K-amps said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > icemanx said:
> ...



Very true, AC power involves some different dynamics, and can be more complicated. I'm decent with DC power, not as good with AC power. 



K-amps said:


> Which begs the question....
> 
> Would you wear out a lens motor on a 1 series body; sooner than you would on a smaller body?



Good question. I figure it probably depends on the lens. The big white telephotos are built like tanks. 

I accidentally dropped one from about 6 feet up when I had my camera slung over my shoulder on a tripod. It was my "heavy duty" tripod from about four years ago that had a removable center riser pole. I remove it whenever I use telephoto lenses. Sheath inside the tropod base cracked, apparently led to too much strain on the latch underneath the head that kept the whole entire assembly attached to the tripod legs...and my 7D with one of the new (rented!) supertelephoto lenses droped strait to the ground! I literally think my heart stopped for a moment when that happened, but it landed on ground that was partly covered in about 1" of snow, and relatively "soft" lightly damp earth and matted grass underneath. 

The hit sounded really hard...but after some extensive testing....not a single thing seemed to be wrong! The lens was still tack sharp, focused instantly, the camera still operated perfectly...everything seemed to be ok. There wasn't even a scratch on either the lens or body...no dents, nothing. Everything was physically, electronically, and even mentally...in perfect shape.  (Suffice it to say, I no longer use that tripid...I locked it down as tight as possible that day, but I've moved on to a Gitzo GT3532LS now, which is just a phenomenal tripod!) So, I'd figure that Canons most expensive lenses can handle the power from a heavy duty body like the 1D X. It seems as though they have explicitly designed circuitry to provide better AF drive performance when attached to more powerful bodies than lesser bodies.

I am not sure that would be true about all Canon lenses, though. There are definitely lesser L-series lenses, and even though they are "professional grade", they are not quite the same build quality as the better lenses.


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## Boyer U. Klum-Cey (Mar 8, 2013)

A 7d2 would meet my meager needs for FPS. 5D3 & 2 stuff is getting some pub, albeit, in a niche publication.


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## K-amps (Mar 8, 2013)

J: I agree... Super tele's must have specialty parts. Glad you didnt have to dig deep in those pockets to make up for any damages.

I was referring to those motors that "cross-pollinate" across similar lines perhaps ...


----------



## sagittariansrock (Mar 8, 2013)

Chosenbydestiny said:


> From a marketing perspective, it seems like they'd go backwards in that sense. Bringing back the era of 1D and 1Ds lines but with new names and APS-C instead of APS-H.



Exactly. 



sagittariansrock said:


> ... it feels like a step backwards- what will Canon achieve with a low-light capable, excellent AF, fast frame-rate APS-C body- didn't they have all that in an APS-H body in the 1DIV already? What can be gained additionally other than the ability to use EF-S lenses?



It is hilarious that people get hooked to the argument they like and ignore the main forum topic. I think if Canon wanted to, they could implement a higher voltage battery in the current 7D-sized body. I do believe they have a reason to move away from APS-H and a non-FF 1d-style body. It is possible that 7DII will have an integrated grip, maybe as one variant, but I feel it is highly unlikely Canon will sell an APS-C body at a higher price point than the 5DIII merely on the basis of fps and AF speed.


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## asposium (Mar 9, 2013)

sagittariansrock said:


> I do believe they have a reason to move away from APS-H and a non-FF 1d-style body. It is possible that 7DII will have an integrated grip, maybe as one variant, but I feel it is highly unlikely Canon will sell an APS-C body at a higher price point than the 5DIII merely on the basis of fps and AF speed.



one standout feature of the 1DX is that I now have a sports camera (high frame rate, good AF) on which my wide angle lenses are now wide angle again. I don't use telephoto lenses for sport, so don't feel like i'm missing out with lost reach.

in moving the 1-series to FF some people will loose out on reach, so that movement of the 1-series to FF creates a gap the 7-series can move into.
also, the increase in price of the 1-series creates a gap for the 7-series

in some respects, the 5-series and 7-series could fill the space that was occupied by the 1d and 1ds series.
could make sense if canon have gone down that route.


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## Bosman (Mar 9, 2013)

This doesnt seem to be a 7D II concept but a 3D or whatever concept since it would sit between the 1d and the 5d much like the 1dm3 did. Thus Like neuroanatomist mentioned about $4000.

I would expect an excellent game changer 7DII to be $3000. Who nows really, only Canon.

Its nice to see CR posting about focus speeds being related to voltage output, it seems to not be understood by many as the reason why a 5dm3 and 7d can't focus as fast. But then there are also many that do. I am re-stating it to continue the awareness.


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## asposium (Mar 10, 2013)

Bosman said:


> This doesnt seem to be a 7D II concept but a 3D or whatever concept since it would sit between the 1d and the 5d much like the 1dm3 did. Thus Like neuroanatomist mentioned about $4000.
> 
> I would expect an excellent game changer 7DII to be $3000. Who nows really, only Canon.
> 
> Its nice to see CR posting about focus speeds being related to voltage output, it seems to not be understood by many as the reason why a 5dm3 and 7d can't focus as fast. But then there are also many that do. I am re-stating it to continue the awareness.



whilst I see you point, I think that canon has made the 1-series "universal" in going high-speed and full-frame.

this does leave a gap in the line that can be filled; a cropped sports camera. the 7-series is such a camera

as for the 3-series, that's been desired for years but with little basis in reality. a new 7-series is somewhat more likely


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## sfunglee (Mar 10, 2013)

jrista said:


> sfunglee said:
> 
> 
> > Referring to new battery issue... 8)
> ...


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## jrista (Mar 10, 2013)

sfunglee said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > sfunglee said:
> ...



Well, what I was trying to say about alkalines is they have a continually and *progressively *declining voltage. It may start out at the highest level, like 9v, but within the first few minutes its down to around 8v, and it drops progressively from there over the life of the battery. It is like of like a reversed S curve that you usually use to tweak the contrast on a photograph, only high at the left end and low at the right end....the "foot" for alkaline battery voltage can go on for a LONG time, hovering just above unusable. I used my 7D for quite a long time on alkalines once...I could hear the shutter and mirror really struggling. It's probably quite bad for the electronics, to work with too little voltage like that, so I no longer use alkalines in my camera body (only Imedeon and Eneloop, in the off chance it ever comes to that...which it only has twice the entire time I've owned the camera.) 

When it comes to flash, another drawback with alkalines is recharge time. Near the beginning of their life, an alkaline actually has nearly instantaneous recharge. But as that voltage drops, recharge takes longer and longer until you can only get one pulse every 15-30 seconds. With an LSD like Imedeon or Eneloop, recharge is never quite a fast as alkalines are right at the beginning, but sustain a far faster recharge time throughout the life of the charge. I think there are some Eneloops that are better for use in flash than others. They have a lower maximum charge, but they support a faster flash recharge (I found that out by reading comments on Eneloops on Amazon...not sure which specific variety it was.)


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## Don Haines (Mar 10, 2013)

RS2021 said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > Neither can I see the APC sensor matching the current FF in noise quality.
> ...



You can't compare a new technology APSC to an old technology ff. it's a lot like saying that since my new Nikon is better than your four year old canon, that nikons are better than canon... it is possible that a new technology APSC will beat old tech Ff, but wait until new technology ff comes out.....


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## jrista (Mar 10, 2013)

RS2021 said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > Neither can I see the APC sensor matching the current FF in noise quality.
> ...



In terms of noise, I'd agree, APS-C cannot match FF. I spout a lot of theory, and theoretically if an APS-C sensor could get three times as much light on the photodiode, some hypothetical future APS-C sensor could match today's ~22mp sensors. But...that is all just theory.

Realistically, if you want low noise, the best way to get it is to spend the big bucks, get a FF camera (at least a 5D III), pick up a couple of those fancy new Mark II EF lenses, and *fill the frame.* Do that with any camera, and no way around it...FF will beat APS-C in terms of IQ.

That said...if you need reach and can't afford to drop _fifty grand_ on the kind of gear that will make it happen with FF...APS-C is more than a viable alternative.


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## wickidwombat (Mar 10, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> You can't compare a new technology APSC to an old technology ff. it's a lot like saying that since my new Nikon is better than your four year old canon, that nikons are better than canon... it is possible that a new technology APSC will beat old tech Ff, but wait until new technology ff comes out.....



A pretty simple concept isn't it 
not sure why it escapes alot of people

If the 7D2 comes out with a blazing new sensor that has eqaul IQ to the 5Dmk3 it will be awesome, doesnt make my 5Dmk3 cameras any worse but man can you imagine what the next FF would be like? usable 512K iso?
the concept sounds insane but 4 years ago no one considered 51K iso usable and now look what the 1Dx can produce at that iso with some clever NR not just hamfisted smeared jpgs


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## Bosman (Mar 11, 2013)

asposium said:


> Bosman said:
> 
> 
> > This doesnt seem to be a 7D II concept but a 3D or whatever concept since it would sit between the 1d and the 5d much like the 1dm3 did. Thus Like neuroanatomist mentioned about $4000.
> ...


I wasn't denying the 7d2 possibility just the specs being a 7d2. These specs make me think of 1dm3 and 1dm4 at $4000 or more. A 7D2 should be around $2500/$3000 in my guestimate.


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## Noink Fanb0i (Mar 11, 2013)

If Canon wants the next 7D to focus as fast as 1-series bodies, they only have 2 choices: use an integrated grip body to accommodate the higher-voltage 1D-series batteries or develop a smaller version of that higher-voltage battery that can fit in the handgrip of a 7D body (lesser capacity obviously).

To those who still have not figured out why 1D-series bodies AF faster than lesser bodies even with the same lens, here's a simple yet clear comparo between a 1D2 body and a 5D using the same lens (85L with lenscap on, measuring how fast the lens spins from MFD to infinity):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yr0BaYYCnQ

Of course, only Canon knows if it's just firmware, AF CPU, higher lens driving voltage, or a combination of all 3 that is responsible for the performance delta.


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## KyleSTL (Mar 11, 2013)

Wouldn't it be easy enough to modify a cheap extension tube (like this one on eBay) so that a osciliscope could be hooked up to the Vbat and A_GND contact to see exactly what voltage is driving the AF system for a given camera?







That might not tell you what's going on downstream between the AF electronics and the USM motor, but it might help to support the higher-voltage/faster-AF theory. If the voltages for a 7.4V-based camera and an 11.2V-based camera are the same, then that theory can be put to bed.


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## pierlux (Mar 12, 2013)

KyleSTL said:


> Wouldn't it be easy enough to modify a cheap extension tube (like this one on eBay) so that a osciliscope could be hooked up to the Vbat and A_GND contact to see exactly what voltage is driving the AF system for a given camera?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, after reading the nth post claiming "a higher voltage may likely drive the AF motor faster", "maybe Canon will develop higher voltage batteries..." "it seems there's still someone who doesn't get that a higher voltage..." and things like those, I gave up replying. But look at the figure above: *Vbat* and* A_GND* is the power line which feeds the lens' motors, and it's* +6/-6 Volts in any camera*. *VDD* and *D_GND* is the power line that feeds the logic, and it's *+5.5/-5.5 Volts in any camera*. You can check it yourself, no need for an oscilloscope, just use a Voltmeter on your camera, the red terminal on Vbat and the black one on A_GND. Note that the large contact A_GND on the lens corresponds to 2 contacts on the camera, pick any of them: you'll read 6 Volts.

By the way, Chuck Westfall NEVER said the 1D X focuses faster than the 5D III because the battery has a higher voltage, he said it's because it's more poweful, and, indeed, it is. Roughly 4 W more than dual LP-E6.

I think I'll start another thread on this matter in the near future, it seems so many are interested, and it also seems there's a lot of misconception regarding this.


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## Bosman (Mar 14, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > pierlux said:
> ...


I guess Chuck Westfall of Canon got it wrong according to you. He says the higher voltage is the reason but maybe you are right.


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## pierlux (Mar 15, 2013)

Bosman said:


> I guess Chuck Westfall of Canon got it wrong according to you. He says the higher *voltage* is the reason but maybe you are right.



Actually, CW says:

http://www.arihazeghiphotography.com/AH_CW_interview/

_... In addition, the EOS-1D X achieves a higher lens motor drive speed with select L-series USM telephoto lenses than the 5D Mark III because of the 1D X’s more *powerful* battery pack. _

He didn't mention voltage.


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## siegsAR (Mar 26, 2013)

It seems 70D will be released first; so for the 7DMkII maybe Digic 6?

And it'll probably be pricier than the 6D significantly, further complicating the choices for those who'd want the 6D. 

Also the reason to delay the 7DMkII to sell more 6D's LOL.


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## Don Haines (Mar 27, 2013)

I see two big ways that the 7D2 and 70D can distinguish themselves from the Rebel line. One is sensor and the other is focus. If you look at the 7D and the 60D, there are a few minor differences between cameras, but only two big diferences. The 7D has way beter focusing and the 60D has the articulating screen. 

I would not be surprised to see new sensors in both. I would expect to see touchscreens, wifi, and GPS in both. I expect the difference to be significantly better AF and a higher frame rate in the 7D, with a few minor improvements... I would also expect NO articulated screen in the 7D2.

Time will tell. I have no intentions of getting a 70D, but since it's features will give a good clue to the 7D2, I eagerly await it's announcement.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 27, 2013)

pierlux said:


> Bosman said:
> 
> 
> > I guess Chuck Westfall of Canon got it wrong according to you. He says the higher *voltage* is the reason but maybe you are right.
> ...



So it's the wattage?


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## wickidwombat (Mar 27, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> I see two big ways that the 7D2 and 70D can distinguish themselves from the Rebel line. One is sensor and the other is focus. If you look at the 7D and the 60D, there are a few minor differences between cameras, but only two big diferences. The 7D has way beter focusing and the 60D has the articulating screen.
> 
> I would not be surprised to see new sensors in both. I would expect to see touchscreens, wifi, and GPS in both. I expect the difference to be significantly better AF and a higher frame rate in the 7D, with a few minor improvements... I would also expect NO articulated screen in the 7D2.
> 
> Time will tell. I have no intentions of getting a 70D, but since it's features will give a good clue to the 7D2, I eagerly await it's announcement.



I agree, the smart move would be to put the current 7D AF maybe tweeked a bit into the 70D it would essentiaqlly become the 7D low price replacement.

then give the 7D2 the 61 point AF and awesome build essentially put a new crop sensor into a 5Dmk3 10FPS?
maybe 8FPS full raw and 10FPS jpg or something like that, depends what processing they give It esspecially if it gets more megapickles I doubt it would get 10FPS raw as thats getting closer to eating 1Dx lunch.

what canon ACTUALLY do might cause some head scrathing however based on current form 
it will be more in the 5Dmk3 price range but I can still see it selling tons


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