# We have too many memory card standards



## dolina (Jul 1, 2018)

I wouldnt mind having so many memory card standards if the 2010 high of 121 million shipped cameras would be double today. Alas shipments has dropped to 23 million in 2016.

On BH we have CF, SDHC/SDXC, Micro SD, CFast and XQD to choose from. There are more standards still being sold there but I will skip them as they're too niche already.

Couldnt the industry consolidate CF (167MB/s), CFast (600MB/s) and XQD (500MB/s) to SDXC UHS-III (624MB/s) and eventually SD Express (985MB/s)?

There are specs for faster CFast and XQD using PCIe 3.0 and NVMe but I want it unified as soon as the replacement of 1D X Mark III, 5Ds Mark II, 5D Mark V and 7D Mark III.

MicroSD is the default standard for drones, smartphone and action cameras.

SD is the default for the now threatened compact cameras, APS-C cameras and mirrorless.

CF cards are now a dead end at 167MB/s throughput. I do not expect new cameras will use CF cards anymore and favor XQD or CFast instead. Unless of course Canon's being Canon and foot drags for another decade.

Consolidation would allow for cheaper cards and devices over time. Not to mention an easier time finding memory cards at brick & mortar stores.


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## Valvebounce (Jul 1, 2018)

Hi Dolina. 
Whilst I agree that consolidation would probably lead to reduced manufacturing costs of memory and definitely make it easier to find memory on the high street, I cannot see (brand) manufacturers passing those savings on, they already have proof that we will pay current prices, I don’t see prices of trusted brand memory falling due to consolidation, not withstanding the possibility of a short lived price war reducing prices momentarily! 

Even with my purchasing power, buying 1 Unit of each connector the price difference is fairly insignificant, if I were buying thousands I could probably have any connector I wanted for within a few tenths of a penny difference in cost, therefore I don’t see the price of devices falling due to consolidation of standards, sorry! 

Cheers, Graham.


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## fullstop (Jul 1, 2018)

i would like to see memory cards and batteries in *consumer electronics* be standardized to a minimum number of types and OPEN STANDARDS by law. so total prohibition of any nin-standardized proprietary stuff only designed for customer-milking purposes. at least for all of EU. and including companies like notorious Apple for instance. they need to be shown, who's boss: we, the customers. it would also stop companies likeSony/Nikon from totally lunatic attempts to force-feed their unsuspecting customers with useless, hyperexpensive XQD cards all of a sudden, when it was clear from the start that those would never become "industry standard". 

memory cards in 1 physical size (micro sd size) would totally suffice and as few physical sizes abd types of batteries in CE products (eg 1 "button" type, 1 flat, rectangular type, 5 sizes round cells AAAA, AAA, AA, C, D) everything within exactly defined open standards. connectors, voltage, pin-outs, firmware standards/functionality, APIs etc. - to match desired energy needs of device (V, A) simply use the appropriate number of cells in parallel or series connection. where is the problem?

if not fully compliant with documented open standard,those products should be rounded up and destroyed by customs along with "counterfeit" warez. it would be a milestone achievement towards more consumer-friendly and more environmentally friendly products. it wokld not stifle innovation, because industry could at any time supply improved products compliant with standard or try to get changed stabdard agreed and implemented as new norm. it woild just preclud proprietary solo-runs by greedy corporations trying to turn excessive profits at the expense of their customers and the environment. oh, did i mention, that stupidities like "one-way cameras" should be legally banned worldwide? 

personally i try to standardize in our household as much as possible. am using a few older CF cards in my "last ever" mirrorslapper (5D3) and will not buy new "CF-sized" cards or cameras/devices using them. everything else i have standardized a few years ago on Micro-SD cards, currently all in UHS-I, 95MB/s since those are dirt cheap - currently 35 euro for 128 GB - abd because Canon cameras cannot handle better standards anyways. mostly i have to micro-SD with the supplied simple and easy SD adapters.


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## fullstop (Jul 1, 2018)

@valvebounce 
prices would come down with stringent, legally required standardization/harmonization. plus there would be many more benefits in terms of more consumer-friendy and more environmentally friendly products if "proprietary "solutions" were pushed back massively, when they could easily be replaced by an open standard. 

by banni g "proprietary stuff", CE industry would be forced to FIRST agree on common new standards rather than just going ahead and spewing out all sorts of *proprietary junk* like idiotic Sony memory sticks or XQD cards. or even worse, forcing that proprietary junk down their unsuspecting customers' throats.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 1, 2018)

As time goes on, new technologies result in change. SD cards have mostly been backward compatible, but there are a few exceptions, so some older products cannot use newer cards simply because there was no practical way to make them work in older products.

CF cards are more standardized, but its still the case that older cameras cannot use higher capacity cards.
At least, some of the cards are no longer made, or are seldom found - Smart cards, Xd cards, microdrive cards, pcmia cards (I have all of these). Then, there are the Sony Memory Sticks. I think Sony still sells a few products that work with them. The number of different versions of memory sticks make my head swim!


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## Mikehit (Jul 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> i would like to see memory cards and batteries in *consumer electronics* be standardized to a minimum number of types and OPEN STANDARDS by law. so total prohibition of any nin-standardized proprietary stuff only designed for customer-milking purposes. at least for all of EU. and including companies like notorious Apple for instance. they need to be shown, who's boss: we, the customers. it would also stop companies likeSony/Nikon from totally lunatic attempts to force-feed their unsuspecting customers with useless, hyperexpensive XQD cards all of a sudden, when it was clear from the start that those would never become "industry standard".
> 
> memory cards in 1 physical size (micro sd size) would totally suffice and as few physical sizes abd types of batteries in CE products (eg 1 "button" type, 1 flat, rectangular type, 5 sizes round cells AAAA, AAA, AA, C, D) everything within exactly defined open standards. connectors, voltage, pin-outs, firmware standards/functionality, APIs etc. - to match desired energy needs of device (V, A) simply use the appropriate number of cells in parallel or series connection. where is the problem?
> 
> ...



So you don't want development then? You want to ossify the status quo.
With your viewpoint, no micro SD, no CFast (despite it has been a standard in the video industry for years) . Probably no XQD.

Coming from someone who moans about Canon's lack of innovation I find this amazing.


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## Antono Refa (Jul 1, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> So you don't want development then? You want to ossify the status quo.
> With your viewpoint, no micro SD, no CFast (despite it has been a standard in the video industry for years) . Probably no XQD.



Vinyl and VHS used to be standard, we have other standards today. There should be a balance between development and standardization, your extreme "innovate, do not standardize" is a straw man argument.


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## Freddell (Jul 1, 2018)

SD express has the perfect form factor, compatible with UHS-I, and should be the Canon standard in all cameras.


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## fullstop (Jul 1, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> So you don't want development then? You want to ossify the status quo.
> With your viewpoint, no micro SD, no CFast (despite it has been a standard in the video industry for years) . Probably no XQD.



No XQD. Yes. yes, yes. ftw. Not needed. Piece of junk. Mankind should be spared that kind of "progress".

Technical progress - yes, no problem. Whenever the industry feels they have something "really worthwhile" in terms of better performance/functionality ... as opposed to "some weirdo company comes up with some weirdo, marginally iterated different proprietary spin on some old stuff" ... then CE industry can agree on a new OPEN standard and it shall be implemented. No problem. Or otherwise, whenever regulators see technical progress would be there but is being held back by companies like Canon, they can set new standard.


Kind of similar to "emissions and car industry". State of California DICTATES car makers the objectives they have to meet. Car makers have to dutifully comply. Or else! They won't sell any cars. At least not in California. I want the same regime for entire CE industry. EU-wide.


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## fullstop (Jul 1, 2018)

Freddell said:


> SD express has the perfect form factor, compatible with UHS-I, and should be the Canon standard in all cameras.



no. [something like] Micro SD is perfect form factor. Can do anything SD can. Same capacity, same speed. Much smaller size. Dual card slots will fit into even the most compact mirrorless FF bodies. No more excuses and apologies.


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## Mikehit (Jul 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > So you don't want development then? You want to ossify the status quo.
> ...



Given that you want anything that does not confrom to standard to be shredded how do you develop new and better formats?
And who decides it is better?

Excluding you, of course.


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## fullstop (Jul 1, 2018)

Regulatory authority decides. Enough experts around. No problem. Me not needed on that one.


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## Mikehit (Jul 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Regulatory authority decides. Enough experts around. No problem. Me not needed on that one.



I'm the expert in what I need or want, not you. If you don't like a camera that uses a certain format, don't buy it.


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## LDS (Jul 1, 2018)

Beyond the form factor, there are different technologies and different uses in play. These cards are not for photo/video only.

Different form factors allow to use different internal technologies, and re-use some (CF uses the same protocols and interfaces used by computer mass storage, unlike SD). CF Express is going to reach 2Gb/s soon, and 8Gb/s in the near future. Maybe useless for photo, other usages may find need that. Some technologies may be rated for harsher/longer usages than others.

Maybe cameras will standardize on a single form factor if it's fast and reliable enough - different ones will still exist for other needs, and maybe a new camera will find it can't work with a standard one...


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## Valvebounce (Jul 1, 2018)

Hi fullstop. 
Sounds like communist crap to me! Everything equal just some more equal than others?
I have spent the last couple of hours playing with a toy camera that uses micro sd cards, I don’t like that crap, I have large hands, (I can carry a car battery across the top one handed large hands) and this fiddly little crap that disappears if you sneeze is not for me, you standardise on what you want, just don’t ask government to interfere with my life more than they do already! Fortunately the UK will be rid of Brussels interference in the fairly near future so you have Brussels restrict your choice if you like, because I’m sure this will restrict choice! 

Cheers, Graham. 



fullstop said:


> @valvebounce
> prices would come down with stringent, legally required standardization/harmonization. plus there would be many more benefits in terms of more consumer-friendy and more environmentally friendly products if "proprietary "solutions" were pushed back massively, when they could easily be replaced by an open standard.
> 
> by banni g "proprietary stuff", CE industry would be forced to FIRST agree on common new standards rather than just going ahead and spewing out all sorts of *proprietary junk* like idiotic Sony memory sticks or XQD cards. or even worse, forcing that proprietary junk down their unsuspecting customers' throats.


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## fullstop (Jul 1, 2018)

hehe. go ahead then with proprietary stuff like ... memory sticks and XQD cards. 

There is more than enough room for both technical progress and price/feature/performance competition when basic standards are set and strictly enforced. 

e.g. 12 V car batteries are "open standard", same connectors and very few standardized sizes and capacity ranges, but still many makers/brands and different price points. 

If cars were made by Canon or Sony, almost every other car would come with their own different type/style model-specific proprietary battery. And Apple cars would have battery built in and when it is no longer functional you'd have to scrap the entire car.


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## Mikehit (Jul 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> hehe. go ahead then with proprietary stuff like ... memory sticks and XQD cards.
> 
> There is more than enough room for both technical progress and price/feature/performance competition when basic standards are set and strictly enforced.
> 
> ...



What a dumb analogy. 
Batteries come in different sizes (like memory cards) and have different power capacities (like memory cards), and have different power delivery (like memory cards). You cannot put a battery from a Smart car into a Land Rover or a Tesla. However, you can put a SD card in any (modern) camera that takes SD cards and a CF card into any camera that takes a CF card. 
And car battery technology is probably as varied as memory card technology. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFRM98koEkU

https://www.searsauto.com/car-care-101/different-types-of-batteries-for-your-car


Your ignorance of car battery technology matches your ignorance of camera battery technology.


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## Valvebounce (Jul 2, 2018)

Go in to your local motor factor and ask for pads and discs for your “EU approved” renault and they will ask you if they are Bendix or Girling, they can’t do it from the year, they can’t even do it from the vin for most as renault in particular are terrible for flip flopping between manufactures and don’t keep records of what was fitted! Ask for discs for the back of your Bmw 5 series and they will ask you 295mm or 300mm diameter! 
A battery is one of very few things that might be vaguely standardised on cars, but don’t expect an exide 038 to be the same height as the Bosch, and what about the Ford flat posts, or the Japanese smaller posts, all standardised pah!
Car parts are all down to the lowest tender for the parts, why do you expect Samsung to develop a phone to use a battery that will fit an iPhone or vice versa? Bonkers?

Graham. 



fullstop said:


> hehe. go ahead then with proprietary stuff like ... memory sticks and XQD cards.
> 
> There is more than enough room for both technical progress and price/feature/performance competition when basic standards are set and strictly enforced.
> 
> ...


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## Don Haines (Jul 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> e.g. 12 V car batteries are "open standard", same connectors and very few standardized sizes and capacity ranges, but still many makers/brands and different price points.
> 
> If cars were made by Canon or Sony, almost every other car would come with their own different type/style model-specific.......



Got about a dozen vehicles at work..... none take the same battery.....

I regularly deal with a local company that specializes in batteries.... They have a warehouse full of batteries. Batteries for vehicles.... batteries for trailers.... batteries for tools..... batteries for UPS’s..... batteries for generators..... there is a wide variety of technologies, sizes, shapes, and connectors...


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## unfocused (Jul 2, 2018)

Trying to add a touch of sanity to this.

The car battery analogy is not a good one. Better would be fuel. Consumers have choices of fuel, but government regulations dictate standards that assure that fuels can be used in all brands of vehicles. So regulations that dictate standards that allow for backward and forward compatibility isn't necessarily a bad thing.

But, this role is already being performed by the industry itself, so no real reason for government interference. SD Cards are the best example. The industry has done a really good job of making them backward compatible, which is always the major risk/concern.

Reducing the various types of cards sounds good in theory, but who is going to tell all the people who own cameras that use a "banned" card that their cameras are no longer supported?

There really isn't that much variation in cards. I don't know why it should be a problem. Most enthusiast and pro cameras use one of four types: SD, Compact Flash, CFast and XQD. Compact Flash seems to be dying a slow natural death. New players like ProGrade are not making CF cards (only CFast and SD). Finding CF cards in stock seems to be getting harder. But, I certainly want them to be available as long as possible, so that I can continue to use them in my 5DIV and 7DII. 

XQD cards were a gamble that will likely negatively impact Nikon and Sony owners, but have no effect on Canon buyers. Good for us that "stupid Canon" was smart enough to use CFast.

The market may eventually settle on CFast and SD as the two most widely used cards for photography. Not sure why that would be "too many standards."


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## Don Haines (Jul 2, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Trying to add a touch of sanity to this.
> 
> The car battery analogy is not a good one. Better would be fuel. Consumers have choices of fuel, but government regulations dictate standards that assure that fuels can be used in all brands of vehicles. So regulations that dictate standards that allow for backward and forward compatibility isn't necessarily a bad thing.
> 
> ...



SD and micro-SD.... they are in everything! I can pull a micro SD card out of a GoPro, put it into just about any p/s camera, snap some pictures, put it into any Rebel, shoot some more, put it into my 7D2, shoot some more, pull it out, and plug it into any laptop, or into my TV to view the images, or through an adapter and edit on an iPad....

And of course, there is now the high speed version (UHS-2) with the extra pins that is still backwards compatible but allows speeds like CF....... this is a standard that is here to stay!


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## RunAndGun (Jul 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> ...oh, did i mention, that stupidities like "one-way cameras" should be legally banned worldwide?



Okay, I've gotta ask... What in the heck is a "one-way camera"?


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## 9VIII (Jul 2, 2018)

I feel like the title of this thread should read "Why don't camera manufacturers upgrade their memory standards in anything remotely resembling a coherent strategy".

The Nikon D5 is probably the one camera that most resembles an attempt at sanity in its memory card implementation.
Mirrorless manufacturers still can't implement more than one UHS-II memory card slot, and Canon can't even decide on a single type of card.

This is just another moment when I can't help but shake my head at the state of the entire industry as a whole.


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## Hillsilly (Jul 2, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> ..... If you don't like a camera that uses a certain format, don't buy it.


My thoughts exactly. 

Personally, I opt for cameras that include an SD slot because no matter where I am, I can always buy or borrow a card if needed. That's important to me. Others chasing ultimate performance might have other priorities. I'd shudder at the thought of a government deciding how camera companies are meant to build cameras.


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## fullstop (Jul 2, 2018)

9VIII said:


> I feel like the title of this thread should read "Why don't camera manufacturers upgrade their memory standards in anything remotely resembling a coherent strategy".
> 
> This is just another moment when I can't help but shake my head at the state of the entire industry as a whole.



exactly. CE industry certainly does not "regulatr itself" in a way that is good for customers.

i disagree on Nikon/D5. stupid move on the back and to the detriment of their customers buying XQD card cameras. CFast not much better, all a dead end. Micro sd and SD have won the format wars, now all in CE industry should be bound to use it. preferably Micro-SD as it can easily and with no negative effects be adapted to SD form factor.


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## fullstop (Jul 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > I feel like the title of this thread should read "Why don't camera manufacturers upgrade their memory standards in anything remotely resembling a coherent strategy".
> ...


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## Mikehit (Jul 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > I feel like the title of this thread should read "Why don't camera manufacturers upgrade their memory standards in anything remotely resembling a coherent strategy".
> ...



Card manufacturers make cards for a variety of industries. It is the camera manufacturer who decides which card technology to put in their camera. Why should someone who cannot get their head round card technology for cameras dictate the standard for every other industry.


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## 9VIII (Jul 2, 2018)

The Nikon D5 is the only camera I know of that actually has fully duplicated memory card slots, if nothing else they succeeded in letting professionals fully utilize the camera they bought.

With the advent of SDUC it might be reasonable to say that XQD and CFast are dead end technologies, but that doesn’t make the current practices of the camera manufacturers any less ridiculous.


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## LDS (Jul 2, 2018)

unfocused said:


> The market may eventually settle on CFast and SD as the two most widely used cards for photography. Not sure why that would be "too many standards."



I'm afraid CFast will be quickly superseded by CFExpress - for the reason CFast uses SATA and CFExpress uses the PCIe/NVMe interfaces all computers are switching to. It will be a matter of supply chain savings.

It looks to cope with CFExpress speeds SD too is switching to a PCIe/NVMe interface - it looks it will be compatible with UHS-I but not later standards.

CF size is surely useful for those who need to "mark" the cards in some way to know which card is what later - especially those who use several cards on each assignment (especially video) - microSD are the worst in this situation, and also get the larger storage later (and let's not speak about their management when you're in a hurry and maybe wearing gloves...)


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## LookingThroughMyLens81 (Jul 2, 2018)

14 years ago, we had too many memory card formats with CF and MicroDrive, SD/SDXC, several MS variants, several MMC variants, xD, SmartMedia, and then we got some more in between then and now. Now, we have a few less. I got into digital cameras when CD-ROMs and Floppy Disk media were the norm, then I transitioned to flash memory with MemoryStick on several Sony CyberShot cameras, then I moved to Compact Flash with my first Canon DSLR, then I moved to SD/SDHC/SDXC with Canon and Olympus point and shoots, and then I moved to microSD with my Samsung smartphones. As it stands, CFExpress (The PCIe replacement for Compact Flash and XQD) is the ideal card for the future cameras due to the ever-living SD card design having compromises for capacity and longevity. Even though we've seen a PCIe version of SDXC and this has been carried over into SD Express, the SD card design compromises with it's form-factor in capacity, speed, and longevity. CFExpress cards are slightly larger in physical size and can offer higher capacities with a more robust card design, as XQD was designed to be better, faster, and with higher capacities than SD from the get-go. At this point, we don't know what the future holds in terms of format adoption, but the clear truth is that PCIe in DSLRs and mirrorless will arrive in the next five years, if the manufacturers can make the power consumption work favorably. As it is, mirrorless cameras are battery killers due to the high FPS and write speeds being used in drive mode, so the companies need to squeeze every bit of battery life they can out of what's available.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 3, 2018)

9VIII said:


> The Nikon D5 is the only camera I know of that actually has fully duplicated memory card slots, if nothing else they succeeded in letting professionals fully utilize the camera they bought.
> 
> With the advent of SDUC it might be reasonable to say that XQD and CFast are dead end technologies, but that doesn’t make the current practices of the camera manufacturers any less ridiculous.


Unless SD cards totally change the way they work, their main issue of speeds slowing to a crawl after they are used once and formatted makes them pretty worthless. You must do a low level format to bring them back to speed, that wears them out if you do it every time.


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## fullstop (Jul 3, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Unless SD cards totally change the way they work, their main issue of speeds slowing to a crawl after they are used once and formatted makes them pretty worthless. You must do a low level format to bring them back to speed, that wears them out if you do it every time.



i have not noticed that at all in my use. almost always i inly do a "quick format" in camera after images have been safely transferred to PC plus at least 1 backup medium. 

why exactly should/would this "slowdown to a crawl" happen?

only performance issue with SD i see in real life is due tonstupid Canon's implementation of an SD slot with abysmally sub-par specs in my 5D3. that is a real performance problem as it sliws down the entire camera even when writibg to the faster cf slot. but for that Canon is solely to blame for. 

and in 2018 Canon still is not willing or able to put UHS-II SD slots in their latest cameras (M50), ffs. Micro/SD is perfectly fine, it is Canon who are stupid and Nikon was naive to put dead end XQD cards into any of their cameras. and customers have to "pay the price" - in every sense. grrrrr!


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## 9VIII (Jul 3, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > The Nikon D5 is the only camera I know of that actually has fully duplicated memory card slots, if nothing else they succeeded in letting professionals fully utilize the camera they bought.
> ...



If there’s any slowdown on a 980MB/s SDUC card, I doubt anyone will notice.

SDUC is still nearly twice as fast as the other two. Given that SD will inevitably be both cheaper and faster, the only competition left is CFexpress, but in this application that won’t actually matter for anything but 8K video.
At this point everyone should just give up on other formats and move to SD for anything but Hollywood quality cameras, and those should be using straight M.2 slots.
(I guess for the sake of labelling “maybe” they would want to use an actual “memory card” and not just the raw memory component. Ok and M.2 slots use a screw to hold the card down so maybe that’s “sort of” a bad idea... or maybe it’s great and camera manufacturers should just get their PC connections sorted out so that you can offload data at full speed without ever unplugging.)


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## fullstop (Jul 3, 2018)

+100

but it would be "unreasonable"  to expect that from companies like Canon who "equip" their latest cameras in 2018 still with ancient "data inter feces" like USB 2.0, SD/UHS-I and 802.11b/g/n ... just to save 3 pennies on parts. yuck, it stinks.


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