# 5ds/r not for me after reading this.



## sanj (May 26, 2015)

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2015/eos5ds-eos5dsr-files.shtml

This seems to require tripod and the sweet spot f stop. I am a handheld guy generally. Also love to shoot full open.


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## gary samples (May 26, 2015)

Anytime you gain megapixels you also magnify poor technique! same with extenders .


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## AcutancePhotography (May 26, 2015)

These high res camera do tend to accentuate the weaknesses of the photographer.


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## neuroanatomist (May 26, 2015)

You can still be a handheld shooter, just realize that 1/FL won't cut it. That also means setting a minimum shutter speed or shooting in TV or M mode, unless Canon changes their firmware logic which still uses 1/FL (1/1.6xFL on crop).


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## AcutancePhotography (May 26, 2015)

Great point. The old rule-of-thumb of 1/f may be fading. The slowest shutter speed I use when hand holding is 1/2f and usually faster. The tiniest shake that I used to be able to get away with, is now more apparent, especially when crop zooming.


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## gary samples (May 26, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> You can still be a handheld shooter, just realize that 1/FL won't cut it. That also means setting a minimum shutter speed or shooting in TV or M mode, unless Canon changes their firmware logic which still uses 1/FL (1/1.6xFL on crop).


 my personal believes as a wildlife shooter is to use as fast a shutter speed as I can. it always meant more keepers !!
most of my work has been with birds @ 840mm 600+1.4 I learned the hard way 1xfL wasn't working 4/5 times fL was more like it 
shooting early and late it was always a fight between shutter speed / iso / F/stop


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## can0nfan2379 (May 26, 2015)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Great point. The old rule-of-thumb of 1/f may be fading. The slowest shutter speed I use when hand holding is 1/2f and usually faster. The tiniest shake that I used to be able to get away with, is now more apparent, especially when crop zooming.



Yup. My basic rule of thumb is that I am shooting at almost 1/2.5x FL. ie. ~1/2500 sec @ 700mm especially when bobbing up and down on a boat in a situation like this.....


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## rs (May 26, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> You can still be a handheld shooter, just realize that 1/FL won't cut it. That also means setting a minimum shutter speed or shooting in TV or M mode, unless Canon changes their firmware logic which still uses 1/FL (1/1.6xFL on crop).


You can change this by up to +/- 3 stops


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## NorbR (May 26, 2015)

Ah, nice. I didn't know the 5ds could do that.
Now what are the chances that we could see this in older cameras with a firmware update?


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## tron (May 26, 2015)

NorbR said:


> Ah, nice. I didn't know the 5ds could do that.
> Now what are the chances that we could see this in older cameras with a firmware update?


Ahhh, YES! My desire too (5D3 user)


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## mkabi (May 26, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> You can still be a handheld shooter, just realize that 1/FL won't cut it. That also means setting a minimum shutter speed or shooting in TV or M mode, unless Canon changes their firmware logic which still uses 1/FL (1/1.6xFL on crop).



+1
But I think most of you guys that are pointing out 1/2FL and 1/2.5L are missing the point.
1/FL might have worked up to 12MP, may be even 16MP cameras.
But once it started getting into the 20s... you guys already started adjusting for it with 1/2FL and 1/2.5FL
So what will 50MP need? 1/3FL to 1/5FL????


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## AcutancePhotography (May 26, 2015)

mkabi said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> > You can still be a handheld shooter, just realize that 1/FL won't cut it. That also means setting a minimum shutter speed or shooting in TV or M mode, unless Canon changes their firmware logic which still uses 1/FL (1/1.6xFL on crop).
> ...



That's why we said these were the minimum (slowest) shutter speeds. I found that when I moved to the higher res cameras, I was often shooting at the 1/3f and faster depending on the subject. The hardest part was realizing that I needed the faster shutter speeds even when taking pictures of non-moving landscapes if I were handholding. 

Of course, this is one of the many reasons why most of my stuff is taken off a tripod.


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## jaayres20 (May 26, 2015)

Here is a question and answer related to this issue. The interview was on a Canon-Asia website and someone interviewed some of the folks who designed the cameras. They were talking about camera shake and how the design of the camera was considered in relation to this issue. They asked a question on how to figure out the get the shutter speed fast enough to avoid camera shake. Here is the question and answer:

"- Is there an easy-to-understand way to determine the shutter speed based on the focal length?

Urakami: This is my personal view, but a rule that would be rather useful is to increase the shutter speed by about one stop from “1/focal length”. That being said, it is still ideal to set the camera on a tripod, since it would not be possible to eliminate camera shake fully if you are taking a handheld shot."

That isn't too bad. I mean most of the time, as a portrait photographer, I will be using the 85 1.2 and the 200 f/2. I usually shoot the 200 at 1/400 anyway and that is a stop above focal length. I think it will be absolutely fine in 95% of situations.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 26, 2015)

The high MP bodies will sell a lot of IS lenses.

The issue of blur across tiny pixels has been known for years, since the Nikon D800 became popular. You will not get worse images hasndholding the camera, but if you are wanting to get the ultimaste, a tripod is going to be needed.

Shooting at 1/2000 sec and a small aperture will require a high ISO, even in bright light, and in dimmer light, forget it.


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## AcutancePhotography (May 26, 2015)

jaayres20 said:


> That isn't too bad. I mean most of the time, as a portrait photographer, I will be using the 85 1.2 and the 200 f/2. I usually shoot the 200 at 1/400 anyway and that is a stop above focal length. I think it will be absolutely fine in 95% of situations.



Is the 56Dsr really the camera you would be looking at if you do portraits? I would not think any resolution advantage would outweigh the resolution disadvantages.


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## gsealy (May 26, 2015)

As far as aperture goes I test each lens that I have throughout a fairly broad range of settings. I set up the camera and lens and focus precisely on a fairly detailed subject some distance away (usually having having printed text). Then I take the same shot several times in aperture priority mode only changing the f stop. Then I compare all the shots at 100% crop in Lightroom. There is definitely a sweetspot range in which the lens delivers the sharpest photos. I then shoot my real photos in aperture priority mode always keeping the lens in that range. This has worked well.


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## jaayres20 (May 26, 2015)

AcutancePhotography said:


> jaayres20 said:
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> > That isn't too bad. I mean most of the time, as a portrait photographer, I will be using the 85 1.2 and the 200 f/2. I usually shoot the 200 at 1/400 anyway and that is a stop above focal length. I think it will be absolutely fine in 95% of situations.
> ...



Sure I can't wait to use it for portraits. I have a 1DX for everything else. The 5DS and the 5DSr are studio and landscape cameras. Just because my portraits don't take place in a studio, the subjects will still be the same. Peter Hurly, a famous head shot photographer loves the new 5DS and plans to switch from his medium format cameras to Canon now. Why would resolution be a disadvantage for portraits?


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## neuroanatomist (May 26, 2015)

rs said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> > You can still be a handheld shooter, just realize that 1/FL won't cut it. That also means setting a minimum shutter speed or shooting in TV or M mode, unless Canon changes their firmware logic which still uses 1/FL (1/1.6xFL on crop).
> ...



Nice! Thanks for pointing that out.


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## Act444 (May 26, 2015)

Cool. Would be even nicer if you could set it by lens (e.g., IS vs non-IS)


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## RobPan (May 26, 2015)

gary samples said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> > You can still be a handheld shooter, just realize that 1/FL won't cut it. That also means setting a minimum shutter speed or shooting in TV or M mode, unless Canon changes their firmware logic which still uses 1/FL (1/1.6xFL on crop).
> ...



Perhaps the person who made up the 1/f rule was not thinking about wildlife photography, which hardly existed in those days. Photography has changed enormously the last sixty years or so. Anyway, I would prefer to use a 5D4 with its extremely high ISO settings which would enable me to use fast shutter speeds above the hi-res 5Ds. I have no use for 2x3m blowups anyway. And I also do not want to lug a tripod anywhere I will go. Stll waiting for the 5D4. (5D3 was stolen.)


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## Marsu42 (May 26, 2015)

RobPan said:


> gary samples said:
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I find that 1/fl is fine for uwa lenses, but even for 20mp too slow for tele shots when something moves (obviously, IS doesn't matter in these cases). As an updated "rule", I'd suggest 1/(fl * 1.5) for 100-200mm, and at least 1/(fl * 2) for longer lenses as a starting point.

It's simply a matter of statistics, if you really want a shot to have no motion blur on the first attempt, select fast shutter speed, or if it's a sitting duck select slow shutter (but lower iso = better iq) and select the best frame from a burst.

For a 50mp sensor, well, you have do select even faster shutter speeds but I imagine this should be still be just fine handheld for wide angle or good light. As the 5ds is essentially an upscaled crop sensor, of course at iso 1600+ you have to expect some drawbacks in iq.


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## RobertG. (May 26, 2015)

It's an interesting article and I wonder how it came onto the Canon website. It sounds a bit too critical / honest. Only the warning of increased noise and ineffective mRAW and crop modes were missing. There are so many points mentioned against getting a 5DS or 5DS R, maybe in favor of a new 5D IV with a smaller mega pixel count. 
I will wait for the rumored update of the Sony A7R with "just" 36MP, which comes without a mirror.... one part less causing vibrations and decrease of sharpness, if I follow the simple logic of the Canon article.


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## neuroanatomist (May 27, 2015)

RobertG. said:


> I will wait for the rumored update of the Sony A7R with "just" 36MP, which comes without a mirror.... one part less causing vibrations and decrease of sharpness



Indeed, because the current a7R without a mirror is so free from vibration problems. :


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## tron (May 27, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> RobertG. said:
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Indeed shutter vibration problems compensate for the lack of mirror vibration problems ;D


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## sdsr (May 27, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> RobertG. said:
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> > I will wait for the rumored update of the Sony A7R with "just" 36MP, which comes without a mirror.... one part less causing vibrations and decrease of sharpness
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It will be interesting to see if the IBIS that's supposed to be in the a7rII makes a difference here, or if they find some other solution (there are those who claim not to have ever seen vibration affect photos taken with their a7r, which I guess could be true - no for me, though, unfortunately). It's been a problem with Olympus OM-D (and perhaps other) cameras too, despite their excellent IBIS, and others presumably (I'm not entirely convinced it doesn't affect my a7s, even in silent shutter mode, for that matter). That said, once you know the problem range, it's easy enough to take pin-sharp photos with an a7r without a tripod (I never use one).


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## Hjalmarg1 (May 27, 2015)

tron said:


> NorbR said:
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You can do that with your 5D3 as well. It works well in Av mode.


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## Zeidora (May 27, 2015)

I learned the old 1/F was good for WA to maybe 100-135 mm, and slowest meant hand held under ideal conditions: rock steady ground, relaxed, using arms against chest to minimize motion, carefully press on shutter release. For any deviation, you have to go shorter, be it on moving object, being physically not completely composed, in clumsy position, or in a hurry, using longer lens.

There is nothing new about small pixel cameras requiring perfect technique, preferentially tripod AND mirror lock-up AND cable release. And yes, this body is not for everybody. I would never consider a 1D-series body, as I don't do any action shots, so >1 fps is useless to me. If you don't like using a tripod, forget about small pixel bodies. Looking forward to picking up my pre-ordered 5dsr at end of June. I'm still surprised that RRS does not have a L-bracket for 5ds with battery grip listed.


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## AlanF (May 27, 2015)

Zeidora said:


> If you don't like using a tripod, forget about small pixel bodies.



I really don't understand this fuss about the smaller pixels of the 5DS. The 5DS has very similar sized pixels to modern APS-C sensor cameras, and bird photographers routinely use 400 or 560mm lenses hand held on 7DII, 7D etc.


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## krisbell (May 27, 2015)

You guys have got me thinking now as the consensus here seems so different from my own experience. I am almost constantly _under _the 1/FL rule while handholding at 600mm. My walk around setting is generally Tv at 1/500 and I havent noticed significant blur even when pixel peeping. Sure the odd shot shows some blur but the vast majority are fine. If I drop it much below this then it does become a problem. This is not intended as a brag post as I am a slightly built guy and I dont think I have superb technique so not sure why everyone else's experience seems to be the opposite to mine? 

Both recent shots at 1/500, 600mm, handheld:



Arabian Oryx (Oryx leucoryx) by Kris Bell, on Flickr



Arabian Red Fox (Vulpes vulpes arabica) by Kris Bell, on Flickr


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## dak723 (May 27, 2015)

jaayres20 said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
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Because seeing every pore and every tiny facial hair may not be a good idea or flattering to your clients.


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## neuroanatomist (May 27, 2015)

Hjalmarg1 said:


> tron said:
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Sorry, but I don't think that's true. The point wasn't about the min shutter in AV (which the 5DIII does have). On the 5Ds that functionality is now the 'manually set' option for the feature, what's new is the 'automatically set' option, where the camera still picks a FL-based minimum but you can alter it by up to 3 stops.


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## Ozarker (May 27, 2015)

dak723 said:


> jaayres20 said:
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I've heard that B+W is designing a new "Reality" filter for the high MP cameras. The UGLO Filter, or something like that.


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## tron (May 27, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Hjalmarg1 said:
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Exactly, 5D3 does not have EC capability or higher than 1/250 min shutter speed in AUTO ISO MANUAL mode. 1Dx (and now it seems 5Ds) has.


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## neuroanatomist (May 27, 2015)

tron said:


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The automatically set but adjustable minimum shutter speed is something new to the 5Ds, the 1D X does not have it either.


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## tron (May 27, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> tron said:
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I guess you are talking about the +-3 stop capability but at least 1Dx has the other 2 mentioned capabilities in auto iso manual mode (EC and up to 1/8000 min shutter speed).


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## jaayres20 (May 27, 2015)

dak723 said:


> jaayres20 said:
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They would have to look at the images at 400% to see that kind of detail, which doesn't happen too often. However more resolution allows me more leeway in post processing, editing & cropping. You can always take away sharpness & resolution, but you cannot add it. Also 50mp is fun to have. I make a quite a bit of money doing photography, but I still don't need it to survive. I shoot weddings and portraits to buy gear and have fun, not buy gear to shoot weddings and make a living.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 27, 2015)

krisbell said:


> You guys have got me thinking now as the consensus here seems so different from my own experience. I am almost constantly _under _the 1/FL rule while handholding at 600mm. My walk around setting is generally Tv at 1/500 and I havent noticed significant blur even when pixel peeping. Sure the odd shot shows some blur but the vast majority are fine. If I drop it much below this then it does become a problem. This is not intended as a brag post as I am a slightly built guy and I dont think I have superb technique so not sure why everyone else's experience seems to be the opposite to mine?
> 
> Both recent shots at 1/500, 600mm, handheld:



Was this without IS? IS usually helps by 2-4 stops, so its the same as 1/ 3 FL).


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## dak723 (May 27, 2015)

jaayres20 said:


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They are easily visible at 100% on the sample portrait pics I have seen on the internet. Now, even 100% may not be a concern. You are the photographer and it is up to you. Personally, I would try out the camera before deciding. Might work out just fine, but it would be the one thing I would be concerned about.


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## candc (May 27, 2015)

rs said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> > You can still be a handheld shooter, just realize that 1/FL won't cut it. That also means setting a minimum shutter speed or shooting in TV or M mode, unless Canon changes their firmware logic which still uses 1/FL (1/1.6xFL on crop).
> ...



This is a new and useful feature. I checked and the 7dii has this.


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## RobertG. (May 27, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> RobertG. said:
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> > I will wait for the rumored update of the Sony A7R with "just" 36MP, which comes without a mirror.... one part less causing vibrations and decrease of sharpness
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+1 

Good to know that you agree. Thanks for quoting just part of my text.


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## benperrin (May 28, 2015)

krisbell said:


> Arabian Oryx (Oryx leucoryx) by Kris Bell, on Flickr
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> Arabian Red Fox (Vulpes vulpes arabica) by Kris Bell, on Flickr



Great shots Krisbell. Loved your flickr page as well. Well done!


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## Lyle Krannichfeld (May 28, 2015)

Seems everyone is being cautious. Here's an email I got from BH this AM (pre-ordered first day): 



> Dear B&H Customer:
> 
> Thank you for your pre-order of the following item:
> Canon EOS 5DS R DSLR Camera (Body Only)
> ...


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## benperrin (May 28, 2015)

Lyle Krannichfeld said:


> Seems everyone is being cautious. Here's an email I got from BH this AM (pre-ordered first day):


I'm still a little worried about the R version. I've seen some test shoots with visible moire and I'm starting to lean more towards the 5ds at this stage. I'm also interested to see the Sony a7r ii and what it can bring to the table but at this stage the 5ds is the frontrunner. I wonder if your housing will still work with the 5dsr? The body is meant to be almost identical to the 5d3 so I bet it will.


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## sanj (May 28, 2015)

I upgraded my laptop with Retina screen. I find the higher resolution screen much better. I can now see details in my photos not visible earlier. I wonder if that will be the case with double resolution 5ds/r cameras. 
Exciting times must say. But if the new cameras prohibit me from shooting quick/grab shots kind of photography then I will have to think hard.


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## Marsu42 (May 28, 2015)

benperrin said:


> I'm still a little worried about the R version. I've seen some test shoots with visible moire and I'm starting to lean more towards the 5ds at this stage.



Really, I take it Sonikon had not many complaints with the filter removal (d800 vs d800e) so they decided to remove it away for good on the d810, but personally I'd rather have a moiré-safe camera and lose a liiiiiitle bit of 100% crop sharpness (that can usually be restored in postprocessing as the software knows that the "issue" is). And the 5ds is even cheaper than the "pirate" R version...


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## benperrin (May 28, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> benperrin said:
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> ...



In the real world there are probably few scenarios where one of these cameras would show moire so I wouldn't expect many complaints from the d810/d800e. It's just that little voice in my head that wonders if it'll show up when it matters. I know that there's photoshop techniques for dealing with it that shouldn't take too much time. 

That's another good point that the 5ds is cheaper and there are some amazing sharpening tools out there like the ones in the nik collection. Also moire is bad enough when it comes to video so I'd be surprised if it wasn't worse on the R version (not that I expect to be doing too much video). Food for thought.


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## Marsu42 (May 28, 2015)

benperrin said:


> I know that there's photoshop techniques for dealing with it that shouldn't take too much time.



There are? Everything I read says moiré is a b*tch to remove. And try that ps technique on a whole series of shots...



benperrin said:


> Food for thought.



Imho the most food for though is how to properly handle a 50mp camera at all so that the slight difference between 5ds and 5dsr might matter at all...


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## benperrin (May 28, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> benperrin said:
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Well the techniques I saw involved using a colour blend mode layer and another layer that I can't remember what it is. Didn't fully fix the problem though but it was a heck of a lot better than the original.

Is it weird to state that I think operating a 50mp camera will not be a problem. Most of it comes down to technique and understanding where problems may come in. I almost always use mirror lock-up mode on a very sturdy tripod with a remote so I think I'll be mostly fine (when shooting landscapes). Diffraction limits might take a bit of getting used to. I'll find out soon enough.


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## ykn123 (May 28, 2015)

related to the Moire effect and how to remove it in images, i once tried the adjustment brush in Lightroom (pre-defined effect: Moire) where you can paint in the "Moire removal" like any other change you can paint in with the brush - it worked surprisingly well.


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## bdunbar79 (May 28, 2015)

"Is it weird to state that I think operating a 50mp camera will not be a problem"

No. I don't think it is any more difficult than operating a 7D Mark II, as far as pixel density is concerned.

I don't think diffraction is a problem either. Even though you may be able to resolve diffraction at a wider aperture, there's still always something to gain.


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## CaptureWhatYouSee (May 28, 2015)

benperrin said:


> Marsu42 said:
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DPP's DLO is supposed to 'reverse' the low pass filter:

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/dpp_3_11_software_explained.do


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## sanj (May 28, 2015)

I will wait for Ken Rockwell's review to decide.


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## meywd (May 28, 2015)

sanj said:


> I will wait for Ken Rockwell's review to decide.



lol


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## zlatko (May 28, 2015)

gary samples said:


> Anytime you gain megapixels you also magnify poor technique! same with extenders .



You only magnify poor technique if you make the image bigger. If the image is the same size, then you don't magnify anything. Annie Leibovitz, the late Herb Ritts, and many other photographers often shot their medium format cameras handheld. It didn't stop them from making beautiful images.


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## Halfrack (May 28, 2015)

zlatko said:


> gary samples said:
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> > Anytime you gain megapixels you also magnify poor technique! same with extenders .
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I shoot medium format hand held all the time, and your technique will tattle on you even faster with the higher megapixel cameras, even maintaining image size. Remember when Nikon shooters were returning their D800's due to soft images, when the issue was their technique and lens weren't doing them justice.


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## gary samples (May 28, 2015)

Halfrack said:


> zlatko said:
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 +1


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## tron (May 29, 2015)

sanj said:


> I will wait for Ken Rockwell's review to decide.


Only if you help him support his growing family ;D


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## AcutancePhotography (May 29, 2015)

sanj said:


> I will wait for Ken Rockwell's review to decide.



Don't we all?


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