# HSS with Einsteins win!



## pwp (Aug 10, 2014)

Everything I'd read about Einsteins and HSS suggested that it was a dead-end, you'll never achieve it. I've tested with a few different triggers and got nothing but black frames above the max sync speed.

But while I was fine tuning the Phottix Odin trigger with the ODS adjustments to optimize it for the Godox 360, just out of curiosity I thought I'd see one more time how I went with the Einsteins. You guessed it, with a bit of fine tuning through the Odin's ODS settings, I'm getting viable HSS with the Einsteins provided they're on full power (longest flash duration). Results with the 5D3 with it's native 1/200 sec max were kind of OK, but with the 1D MkIV and it's 1/300 sec max and smaller sensor, it's GOOD right up to 1/8000 sec. I expect it would be even smoother on an APS-C body. It'll be nice if the 7DII ships with a 1/300 sec sync speed.

OMG the Phottix Odins are an extraordinary bit of hardware. I expect if I dug into the menus a little deeper I'll discover it will make nice espresso coffee too. 

-pw


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## wickidwombat (Aug 10, 2014)

nice

just out of interest are your odins the mk2 version? or the mk1


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## pwp (Aug 10, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> ...just out of interest are your odins the mk2 version? or the mk1


MkI but with the firmware update. The MkI original firmware doesn't have ODS. 
The primary reason for the firmware update is the ODS functionality.

-pw


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## agierke (Aug 10, 2014)

Can you post some shots? I'm very curious about achieving hss with studio strobes.


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## IMG_0001 (Aug 14, 2014)

Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?

The resulting flash power must also be quite low as a 1/8000 s the exposure would only capture about 7% of the flash duration. Also, how constant is the flash exposure? As a flash output is far from linear, _my feeling_ is that a small change in timing might result in quite a change in exposure.

I'm only starting of with flash photography and that's only me thinking out loud here. I was just wondering...


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## KyleSTL (Aug 14, 2014)

IMG_0001 said:


> Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?
> 
> The resulting flash power must also be quite low as a 1/8000 s the exposure would only capture about 7% of the flash duration. Also, how constant is the flash exposure? As a flash output is far from linear, _my feeling_ is that a small change in timing might result in quite a change in exposure.
> 
> I'm only starting of with flash photography and that's only me thinking out loud here. I was just wondering...


Longer flash duration during shutter travel is exactly what HSS is. There is not other way to do it since there is no point in time during which the entire shutter is exposed.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 14, 2014)

KyleSTL said:


> IMG_0001 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?
> ...



No it isn't, HSS is many high speed pulses timed such that the entire shutter slot gets even illumination; not one long flash buts lots of very short flashes. These tiny fast short flashes effectively emulate one longer one, but at the cost of much power.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 14, 2014)

IMG_0001 said:


> Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?



Correct, but it does equate to faster sync, it isn't HSS, it is what Pocket Wizard call HyperSync, the trick is to get the flash to fire before the second curtain starts its travel, that is what causes the shadow, the second curtain, so if you can adjust your triggering time to sync not when the first curtain is fully open, as in normal sync, but before that, just before the second curtain starts to close *and* your flash duration will last the entire exposure at an evenish value then you get faster sync.

But what it should more accurately be called is second curtain sync above true sync speed, but SCSATSS is nowhere near as cool as HSS or HyperSync!


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## Maui5150 (Aug 14, 2014)

I do this all the time, previously with my Photogenics and now with Dynalite using Pocketwizard Flex TT5s

Using a Dynalite M2000ER and 4080-BiTube heads, I can shoot at 1/2500 sec. I can shoot faster, but that is the flash duration of the 4080 Bi-Tube. 

The one that made my head hurt was then synching a second remote camera. On the pocket wizards they have a relay feature so I have the remote on one channel and the flash on one channel higher, and I can't remember if I had to use a slower shutter on the triggering camera. 

Key on that set up is to have manual focus so there is no AF hunting


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## IMG_0001 (Aug 14, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > IMG_0001 said:
> ...



As most of the light emitted during a flash is at the beginning of the burst of light and the IGBT just interrupt the flash at the desired duration, many short pulse result in a 'somewhat constant' light source as opposed to the long but quite 'uneven' lighting of a single long duration flash. Therefore, having multiple very short and likely less intense flashes during the exposure seems more efficient and must result in a more repeatable/consistent lighting than one long flash. The energy cost is from keeping the output almost constant for the duration of the illumination, at least that is my understanding.


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## IMG_0001 (Aug 14, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> IMG_0001 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?
> ...



Thanks, it right that SCSATSS does not sound right. I guess its better to have this than nothing, but I just thought that having absolutely no control over the light source, as opposed to true HSS, was quite a bit of a sacrifice.

Edit: How about Hyper Speed Second Curtain Sync (HSSCS) though?


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## KyleSTL (Aug 14, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > IMG_0001 said:
> ...



I was unaware of that. I guess I have misunderstood HSS all along. Thanks for the clarification.


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## pwp (Aug 15, 2014)

I'm clear on why HSS works with a speedlight with the pulsing, but getting 1/8000 sec with my Einsteins triggering with ODS calibrated Phottix Odins is clearly some class of dark magic that I'm inclined to thankfully accept rather than try to understand the actual physics of. All I can say is that it works...not as well on the 5D3 as the 1D4 but there you have it. 

On a brutally revealing white-wall test, there is evidence of slightly uneven exposure, but nothing that would noticeably effect real-world, outdoor location shots. Of course there is some power loss as the shutter speeds head north, but that's to be expected. 

What we can expect over the next year or so is a deluge of HSS enabled monolights flooding out of China. What's more they'll likely have TTL as well. The era of dependable "dumb" studio packs and monos is now pretty well consigned to history. This is fun.

-pw


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## PhotoCat (Aug 15, 2014)

The following article may shed some light on what is actually happening:

http://wiki.pocketwizard.com/index.php?title=IGBT-controlled_flashes_vs._Voltage-controlled_flashes


According to the article, Einstein E640 definitely works better in full power than in half power in a HSS (hypersync) setup.


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## PhotoCat (Aug 15, 2014)

Ironically, a less sophisticated strobe design is more likely to work better with HSS because the
natural flash discharge tail (flash duration) is longer!

http://www.paulcbuff.com/images/graphics/terms/flashduration.png

This explains why the cheapo strobes from China may actually work well with HSS!
The serious down side for the cheapo strobes is that it will be much more prone to motion blur when your model is in motion e.g. dancing, as the cheapo strobes don't freeze actions well.


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## Maui5150 (Aug 15, 2014)

pwp said:


> What we can expect over the next year or so is a deluge of HSS enabled monolights flooding out of China. What's more they'll likely have TTL as well. The era of dependable "dumb" studio packs and monos is now pretty well consigned to history. This is fun.
> 
> -pw



What exactly do you think has changed. These "Dumb" studio packs already shoot at 1/8000 of a second, and it is the trigger and remote that makes a difference. 

While my photogenic monolights were not the best, I actually went from monolights to studio packs because I find the quality of the Dynalite is better as well as it is easier to transport. The cables can sometimes be a pain, but in general it is easier to put a flash head 15 feet in the air on a stand and not worry than a most monolights. My case with 2000 watt pack, and 4 heads takes a lot less space than the huge Pelican 1650 I carried 3 Photogenic modeling lights in. In fact my Dynalite case I can carry a 1000 watt pack, 500 watt pack, photogenic Ion battery and 3 heads and it is close to half the size of what I carried the photogenics. The Alien Bees and Einsteins are smaller, but there are always trade offs.

Recycle time is also much faster

The Einsteins are an anomaly and probably the best bang for the buck out there. They have decent power, but also one of the shorter flash durations. 

When it comes to High Speed Sync and Hyper Sync, the Quality of light, power of light and duration of light matter. In short you need to throw a ton of power out over a very short period of time. In many cases it is probably cheaper to throw high powered constant lights and freeze everything with shutter.

Some of the Dynalite packs I use are 10+ years old... I still shoot them plus side of 1/2000, I can go to 1/8000 but I find the flash duration makes a difference, and the more you really start shooting HSS you notice variations. Whether you do Odin, PocketWizard or a few others, the trigger is the magic in HSS not the strobe. And as mentioned try synching a second remote camera into the mix and you see how much Odins or PocketWizards come into play.

Regarding Monolights / packs / speedlites - Speedlites are still the most convenient in the field, though power and recycle become an inssue. I found a healty balance with my Dynalite and found 2 or 3 heads off a Dynalite pack on a Photogenic Ion worked much better than multiple monolights on the same Ion, mainly the more monolights you throw into the mix, the more capacitors that have to be reloaded each flash. 

Your point on TTL is coming from what?? 

TTL is camera based, so a Canon TTL is different than a Nikon TTL etc. Speedlites are already manufacturer dependent, and I cannot see MONOLIGHTS being the same.

This is why you have packs, packs use their own or third party triggers, and that way, you want to shoot canon, Nikon, Hassleblad, Sony, what ever, it is more letting the manufacturer or third party system worry about it.


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## jonathan7007 (Aug 16, 2014)

Paul,
Do you find that the HSS solution for Einsteins works the same out in the field with the Buff Vagabond? I shoot with Einsteins and have a set of Phottix Odins. Now I have to find out my firmware state -- but I know I have seen no mention of an ODS adjustment framework.

Extremely cool that I can do this.

I do have 5DMark3's, what are the "difficulties"? More variation? Lower shutter limit?


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## pwp (Aug 18, 2014)

jonathan7007 said:


> Paul,
> Do you find that the HSS solution for Einsteins works the same out in the field with the Buff Vagabond? I shoot with Einsteins and have a set of Phottix Odins. Now I have to find out my firmware state -- but I know I have seen no mention of an ODS adjustment framework.
> 
> Extremely cool that I can do this.
> ...


Out in the field with VML's is when I tend to use HSS. Not much point with HSS indoors or in the studio unless you have a special needs project. The Einsteins have the high speed flash duration option to freeze action with flash exposure. My other HSS go-to flash is the compact and awesome Godox 360. Again, it's Odin triggered.

5D3 and HSS at the higher speeds was giving uneven exposure across the frame, not banding or partial exposure...you don't see the shutter "shadow" provided you have the Odin ODS setting properly tuned. The tuning is extremely simple like most Odin processes. The 1D4 delivers cleaner frames. I lack the science to say why.

If you don't see ODS on your Odin it's not there. Just do the very simple firmware upgrade and you'll have it. I think there is a tutorial at Flash Havoc if you're feeling uncertain.

-pw


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## pwp (Aug 18, 2014)

Maui5150 said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > What we can expect over the next year or so is a deluge of HSS enabled monolights flooding out of China. What's more they'll likely have TTL as well. The era of dependable "dumb" studio packs and monos is now pretty well consigned to history. This is fun.
> ...



The old "dumb" packs and mono heads that come to mind are my long departed, chronically unreliable Balcar packs which kept electrocuting me, my now retired Profoto 2400 w/s floorpacks that weighed as much as a truck battery and the also retired Profoto Compact 600 mono heads that I carted around the country for years. I don't miss them a bit. Now it's six light and gutsy Einsteins with clever VML batteries, a lonesome Godox 360 and a bunch of 600ex-rt speedlights, all fired by nicely evolving battery technology and the almost dark-magic Odins. About time.

What's changing the game are high priced products like the Profoto B1 500 Air. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1009783-REG/profoto_901094_b1_500_airttl_monolight.html/c/product/#inpage:IN+STOCK?gclid=COHYps3OnMACFdgjvQodAHMAJg with TTL capabilities via the propriety trigger and a built in Lithium Ion battery. This made the clone creators of the Peoples Republic of China sit up and take notice and we're now seeing the start of a wave of gutsy, budget priced monolights that have TTL, built in battery packs plus HSS capability via the inevitable proprietary radio trigger. Some of the worse examples rushed to market apparently will electrocute you about as often as my old Balcar packs. 

In the speedlight universe the release of the game changing Canon 600EX-RT sparked a new wave of products from China in the form of the remarkable Phottix Mitros+ which has a built in Odin transmitter and receiver, the upcoming Yongnuo 600 EX-RT (familiar name....) and so on. BTW, Phottix is a company to watch. While fundamentally dumb but never the less innovative and affordable, the Godox/Cheetah 180 and 360 twins are helping change the way we use flash. 

Check out Flash Havoc http://flashhavoc.com/. In amongst the tacky consumer chaff some really interesting stuff hitting the market. It's a big future.

-pw


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## Lawliet (Aug 18, 2014)

IMG_0001 said:


> Therefore, having multiple very short and likely less intense flashes during the exposure seems more efficient and must result in a more repeatable/consistent lighting than one long flash.


And there is power regulation. Those little flashes can have a relatively wide range f power levels, making the output adjustable.
The long flash method works only at/near full power.


> The energy cost is from keeping the output almost constant for the duration of the illumination, at least that is my understanding.


Most of the cost comes from the shutter blades blocking a good portion of the light, and from a little oversight in the flash protocols. The camera doesn't tell the flash how long its sync speed actually is, so the HSS-flash has to be long enough for the slowest camera. You use that 1D4? Half of your speedlite's power went into compatibility with the 6D or 5Dx. (The FlexTT has a hack for the second part, if I remember correctly)


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