# One of my favorite photographer goes mirror less



## sanj (Sep 25, 2014)

http://www.juzaphoto.com/article.php?l=en&t=from_reflex_to_mirrorless_sony_a5100

Around 6 years ago when I restarted photography after 15 years (film to digital) I found Juza on internet and learned a lot from his website.


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## Khalai (Sep 25, 2014)

I like that site too, very informative.

Funny thing is, he switched to mirrorless, but not with the lenses  That may be an emerging trend and also a warning to Canon or Nikon - some sort of transition zone, until the big boys launch their own competent mirrorless bodies or until the mirrorless leaders upgrade their lens lineup.


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## agierke (Sep 25, 2014)

thats great for the type of photography he shoots...but let me see him try to shoot a full wedding with that rig or a heavily scheduled fashion shoot or sports....

mirrorless is a neat technological development but i don't see it ever replacing entirely the convenience of looking through an OVF and being able to see and react quickly to your subject matter.

call me old school....


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## Dylan777 (Sep 25, 2014)

Mirrorless has it own special - small, light weight easy to carry around on certain lenses.

I would switch to mirrorless if my kids weren't in sports. For landscape and everyday photos, current mirrorless is good enough for me.


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## bholliman (Sep 25, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> Mirrorless has it own special - small, light weight easy to carry around on certain lenses.
> 
> I would switch to mirrorless if my kids weren't in sports. For landscape and everyday photos, current mirrorless is good enough for me.



Dylan, what lenses do you use on your mirrorless body (Sony A7r I believe)? Do you use a Metabones adapter?


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## Dylan777 (Sep 25, 2014)

bholliman said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Mirrorless has it own special - small, light weight easy to carry around on certain lenses.
> ...


I have fe55mm. I tried adapter for Canon mount, hated it. The fe35mm works and fits very well with a7 series. Next best fit is fe55mm and iq is really good.


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## LarryC (Sep 25, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> Mirrorless has it own special - small, light weight easy to carry around on certain lenses.
> 
> I would switch to mirrorless if my kids weren't in sports. For landscape and everyday photos, current mirrorless is good enough for me.



Interesting conclusion, at least some mirrorless camera, e.g. Nikon V3, can shoot at 20FPS with a vary high reported focus rate. I would think the speed and compactness of mirrorless would be ideal for family sporting events with the DSLR best for landscapes for their IQ and DR.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 25, 2014)

LarryC said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Mirrorless has it own special - small, light weight easy to carry around on certain lenses.
> ...


Larry, I do not have much experience with Nikon gear. I owned Sony a7, a7r, rx1, fuji X100s. None of these cameras could give me the tracking capabilities like dslr. I'll save my judgements for Nikon mirrorless since haven't touch them.


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## docsmith (Sep 25, 2014)

Interesting. I follow Juza as well. Just checked and the A5100 is $549. Maybe a replacement for my M, but not 5DIII. Do the adapters allow AF with canon lenses? I'll probably stay the course, but as I said in another thread, I like options.


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## Silverstream (Sep 25, 2014)

"I am very fascinated by the Sony A7s and its super clean, 12 megapixels fullframe sensor, but I have asked myself: how many times I use high ISO for macro and landscapes? The majority of my photos are taken at low ISO, and here fullframe does not offer big advantages in comparison to APS-C. For the rare situations when I'll need great high ISO (for example, northern lights trips), I'll borrow a FF camera."
The single biggest issue for a pro who shoots events is having full frame to be able to have the flexibility to shoot low light when the situation demands it. The size/weight advantage is really negligible compared to the weight of high quality wide aperture full frame lenses. Mirrorless is great for certain people and situations and for casual use I would personally be tempted if I wasn't putting every dollar I had into my pro equipment!


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## streestandtheatres (Sep 26, 2014)

I'd like to upgrade my 600d+400 5.6, and I'd say that 50% of my photographs are of stationary subjects where the 600d's af is absolutely fine. And about 50% of the time I photograph birds in flight and if I have the camera on f5.6 I'm lucky to get 20% of the frames in focus. With the lens at f8 I don't miss much.
How big a difference is the af now?


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## sanj (Sep 26, 2014)

To me this means it is a matter of time before mirror less starts giving DSLR serious competition. Many who look down on mirror less will change their stand once their favorite company (Canon/Nikon) starts making them. 
Also the distain to electronic viewfinders will go away. I work with Alexia and Red cameras on a daily basis and find the finders amazing. I also find my Fuji XE find AMAZING. I believe there are other cameras that have even better electronic finder. 
Mirror less is here to stay and grow. Rather rapidly I think.


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## AcutancePhotography (Sep 26, 2014)

I have never heard of Juza before. Thanks for posting the link. I like what I read. A nice clear way of writing.


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## sanj (Sep 26, 2014)

Yeah. Juza is a cool guy.


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## jasonsim (Sep 26, 2014)

Help me understand...how is a mirrorless camera better? 

In the article he says the Sony is good up to 1600 ISO? Really...my old 7D was good up to 1600 ISO!

Needs an adapter to use larger full frame sized lenses? What is the advantage of the small sized mirror-less camera if you don't have all the small sized lenses to go with it? Seems like a kludge!

So you prefer the electric shutter rather than a mirror and mechanical shutter assembly? Well...at least when the mechanical one wears out, it can be easily replaced. Good luck with the electrical equivalent goes out!

These arguments seem to have little merit and only serve to justify his idiotic abandonment of truly renowned systems: those being from Canon and Nikon. 

--Jason


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## Steve (Sep 26, 2014)

agierke said:


> thats great for the type of photography he shoots...but let me see him try to shoot a full wedding with that rig or a heavily scheduled fashion shoot or sports....
> 
> mirrorless is a neat technological development but i don't see it ever replacing entirely the convenience of looking through an OVF and being able to see and react quickly to your subject matter.
> 
> call me old school....



Author of article: "This isn't for sports or wildlife and its not full frame so it doesn't work well for low light"

The internet: "Yeah, but let me see him use that setup for sports! Lol mirrorless, amirite?!"



jasonsim said:


> Help me understand...how is a mirrorless camera better?



It does the same things for him that DSLRs do except in a smaller, lighter package. This is explained pretty clearly in the article.



jasonsim said:


> Needs an adapter to use larger full frame sized lenses? What is the advantage of the small sized mirror-less camera if you don't have all the small sized lenses to go with it? Seems like a kludge!



That's just Sony. Olympus, Fuji, and even Samsung have pretty decent native lens lineups. Not as much choice as DSLR but, well, the systems haven't been around nearly as long. That problem is a function of time and maturation of the system; it doesn't reflect one way or another on mirrorless as a technology. Also, the writer pretty clearly states that he is maintaining his lenses as a hedge in case Canon finally starts making good mirrorless products.



jasonsim said:


> So you prefer the electric shutter rather than a mirror and mechanical shutter assembly? Well...at least when the mechanical one wears out, it can be easily replaced. Good luck with the electrical equivalent goes out!



Physical mechanisms fail at vastly higher rates than purely electrical components under normal use. 

Global electronic shutters, which are pretty much inevitable at this point, will confer tons of advantages a mechanical shutter can never approach. Arbitrarily fast shutter speeds, arbitrarily fast sync speeds, fps burst speeds limited only by throughput, elimination of rolling shutter, etc. While this isn't available for stills cameras yet (that I know of anyway), its only a matter of time. Sony might even have one now, if you believe some of the rumors.



jasonsim said:


> These arguments seem to have little merit and only serve to justify his idiotic abandonment of truly renowned systems: those being from Canon and Nikon.



Seems like its working out for that guy just fine?


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## deleteme (Sep 26, 2014)

jasonsim said:


> Help me understand...how is a mirrorless camera better?
> 
> In the article he says the Sony is good up to 1600 ISO? Really...my old 7D was good up to 1600 ISO!
> 
> ...



He mentioned the advantages in weight, size and silence. The electronic shutter cannot wear out as it is a function of sensor readout. For his work the tilt screen and variety of lenses available via adapters make it a happy choice for him. 
I have all Canon gear and a Panasonic GX-7 and I have to say I really like silent shutter and an EVF. The camera is actually a bit too small for my hands but it makes images that are startlingly good even in comparison to my FF gear. The biggest challenge for ML users IMO is battery life. Small cameras mean small batteries in a high electrical demand device.


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## CaiLeDao (Sep 26, 2014)

I used to believe the mirrorless has big advantages themes and tried a Sony A7R and Canon lens adaptor. To me that was a disaster and I returned it after a few days. The claimed sensor resolution made very little difference to the image quality over a 5D mark III and the shutter was noisy and vibrated significantly. put anything long than 100mm lens and the images blurred from this. I still would like a lighter format body, but remain happy travelling with a DSLR body because its so adaptable and works. A simple example is I do use the EVF panel at 10 times magnification on the DSLR to get focus on landscapes. the A7R won't do this unless you use Sony branded lenses, there ends up being lots of little compromises in the shooting options, no remote shutter easily available so make your own etc etc. This format will mature and compete eventually but it will be interesting to see how restricted models are so they don't carve out the dslr market entirely so I wouldn't rush again.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 26, 2014)

sanj said:


> Around 6 years ago when I restarted photography after 15 years (film to digital) I found Juza on internet and learned a lot from his website.



Interesting, hopefully similar opinions from reputable photogs will speed up Canon's movement towards new sensors and mirrorless. They certainly are on the right track with their dual_pixel af, the only question is how long they'll try to milk the current old-school dslr customers with the legacy technology. 

Btw outstanding shots on this link.


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## ritholtz (Sep 26, 2014)

Colors in pics are very nice.


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## Woody (Sep 27, 2014)

I am going to wait for EOS-M3. Just need it to come with DPAF, articulate screen, EVF and wired remote.


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## jrista (Sep 27, 2014)

agierke said:


> thats great for the type of photography he shoots...but let me see him try to shoot a full wedding with that rig or a heavily scheduled fashion shoot or sports....
> 
> mirrorless is a neat technological development but i don't see it ever replacing entirely the convenience of looking through an OVF and being able to see and react quickly to your subject matter.
> 
> call me old school....



Aye! I'm playing with the A7r right now, and even though it has some cool features, even a relatively advanced EVF like this is no replacement for an OVF. You can feel the lag...it's not obviously apparent, this is a fast EVF, but it is still there. Movement also has a blurred appearance as you pan around, which is frustrating. The worst thing is the moire...MASSIVE moire an aliasing in the EVF, especially around things like blinds in windows or the deckboards of my deck. It's really bad. 

The other thing about an EVF is you have that limit on detail. I can readily see the pixels in the A7r EVF. I can also tell that there is a limit on resolution. It's always been claimed by EVF advocates that the ground glass in an OVF limits resolving power. That may be true, however it doesn't limit it anywhere even remotely close to how limited EVFs are. The difference is massive. I can very clearly tell when my subjects are focused in the 5D III (much better than in the 7D even). I really have a tough time telling what's focused with the A7r EVF...because of that resolution limit.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 27, 2014)

Mirrorless is getting better, but some of the advantages he claims are drawbacks to me. Small size means difficult to operate, using LCD to compose and focus?? Really? In bright sun too?

EVF is a given, the alternative silvered mirror or use of LCD are worse. I can live with a good one.

However, his claim that AF will surpass Phase detect? The camera may focus very fast, but, if you can't see what you are focusing on, its not really useful.

I'm glad people are buying them, it will encourage faster development, and maybe soon, we'll see a full sized camera with a hybrid viewfinder and choice of AF type.


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## Woody (Sep 27, 2014)

jrista said:


> agierke said:
> 
> 
> > thats great for the type of photography he shoots...but let me see him try to shoot a full wedding with that rig or a heavily scheduled fashion shoot or sports....
> ...



Another vote from me for OVF. EVF has awful lag and appearance... Apparently, it doesn't bother many. EVF is OK for casual photography.


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## ritholtz (Sep 27, 2014)

Woody said:


> I am going to wait for EOS-M3. Just need it to come with DPAF, articulate screen, EVF and wired remote.


I am also going to move to M as soon as Canon releases one with all these features and flash commander (as soon as Canon release M which moves beyond rebel capabilities and closer to 70D). We might see multiple M models when Canon takes them seriously.


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## jrista (Sep 27, 2014)

Woody said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > agierke said:
> ...



I've learned that the Sony A7r EVF performance seems to depend on what your pointing at. Not sure why, but there are times when it lags HORRENDOUSLY bad. Part of it is the EVF update speed is related to your chosen exposure...once you get down to large fractions of a second, the EVF lags at that rate. But even at higher frame rates, there are times when panning around when it seems to hit an object or texture or whatever, and that jerks on the lag, and it becomes very visible for a moment or two. 

I know a lot of people are fans of EVFs because of what they can do. There is no question this thing can overload you with information about...everything. For me, though, information overload should very much be a secondary concern to high image quality, high frame rate, high resolution, and otherwise being non-intrusive to assisting you in what a viewfinder is designed for: Framing the shot. 

I wonder if the low shutter speed issue will always exist. It is probably the single biggest issue...once you get down to 1/30th of a second or slower, it really has a major impact on the EVF frame rate. I got down to 1/4 second at one point...and WOW. I figured the camera would simulate exposure, but it actually seems to really do the exposure you've chosen, even for slow shutter speeds. It really kills the user experience.


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## Steve (Sep 27, 2014)

jrista said:


> I've learned that the Sony A7r EVF performance seems to depend on what your pointing at. Not sure why, but there are times when it lags HORRENDOUSLY bad. Part of it is the EVF update speed is related to your chosen exposure...once you get down to large fractions of a second, the EVF lags at that rate. But even at higher frame rates, there are times when panning around when it seems to hit an object or texture or whatever, and that jerks on the lag, and it becomes very visible for a moment or two.
> 
> I know a lot of people are fans of EVFs because of what they can do. There is no question this thing can overload you with information about...everything. For me, though, information overload should very much be a secondary concern to high image quality, high frame rate, high resolution, and otherwise being non-intrusive to assisting you in what a viewfinder is designed for: Framing the shot.
> 
> I wonder if the low shutter speed issue will always exist. It is probably the single biggest issue...once you get down to 1/30th of a second or slower, it really has a major impact on the EVF frame rate. I got down to 1/4 second at one point...and WOW. I figured the camera would simulate exposure, but it actually seems to really do the exposure you've chosen, even for slow shutter speeds. It really kills the user experience.



Its weird, I've never actually noticed a single problem with the EVF on my X-E1. It never seems laggy, I've never seen individual pixels, I've never felt overloaded with info or in any way felt hindered in framing a shot. I had to go grab my camera just now to try out the 1/4s shutter thing. It does get laggy at that speed but I never would have noticed if I hadn't just read your post. I can see the pixels if I concentrate on doing that but again, never would have noticed on my own. Maybe there is too much info in some of the newer Sony cameras but I never really see any of the icons and numbers in my camera's EVF unless I need to reference them. I really don't think the majority of people see any of these things as problems or even see them at all. 

Have you tried the X-T1 by any chance? Its about the nicest EVF out there and I wonder if it would make a difference to you or not.


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## jrista (Sep 27, 2014)

I've messed with the X-T1 in local stores. I have pretty acute vision with my contacts in, and even with my glasses (the contacts measure a little better than 20/10, with my glasses its very close to 20/10.) At less than an inch of eye relief, seeing the pixels in EVF's is not difficult at all. I am also not able to block out a lot of information...some kind of hypersensitivity thing. 

Same problem with my ears...they, or my brain, doesn't filter incoming sounds...I usually hear all kinds of things at once...multiple sounds from various things, that I can usually hear quite clearly simultaneously. I can pick out background fans, vibrations, buzzes, ticking sounds, conversations, music, etc. all at once. Electronic buzzes and rumbling backgrounds (like idling engines) are my bane...I can sometimes block out other sounds, but those two are just impossible for me to filter out. Sounds 90% of the people in the world wouldn't ever hear unless you clearly and explicitly described the sound to them so they could explicitly listen for it...then, maybe, they will finally pick it out of the background noise. It's a curse. Has largely been responsible for severe insomnia that I've had for well over a decade now.  

My eyes are much the same way. Most people don't notice whats in their periphery unless it moves. For me, it's all stuff that's dragging at my attention. Right now, I'm looking at my computer screen, and my TV is on in the background to my left, a plane is flying past my window to the right, and there is this annoying reflection bouncing off one of my eye glass lenses (I don't know what it is, but I'm going to have to find out after I'm done writing this, because...it BUGS ME! ) I like the clean, clear, crisp and open OVF on my Canon cameras. They are wonderful. The AF points don't show up until I want them to, when they do, it's fleeting...more than enough to tell me what happened. The information displayed in it is sparse, but useful. That, to me, is the epitome of viewfinder design.  It's non-distracting. 

Sony's EVF is about as distracting as it gets...with the panning stutter, the constantly visible level, and all the other junk distributed about the periphery. Maybe there is a way to turn that stuff off...I've poked through the menus a bit, and haven't found a way yet. Anyway...yeah, I'm probably not a great exemplar for potential EVF users. However, there are a few key issues with them that I think can be and are issues for most people...such as the frame rate lowering (causing worse stuttering) when you use a slower shutter speed. The big pixels will be visible to anyone with better than average vision (which is actually a high percentage of people with average corrective lens prescriptions). There are benefits to EVFs...but I think many/most of those benefits could actually be implemented in Canon's Transmissive LCD layer in their OVFs, greatly mitigating the benefits that EVFs offer over OVFs.


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## sanj (Sep 27, 2014)

jrista said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



I find focusing with the XE very convenient. If I want to focus manually it is amazing with split screen/peaking etc. When focusing automatically, when the focus point goes green, focus is done. Not sure why you said that. 

Another thing: EVF tells me right after taking the photo, without looking at the lcd, if for any reason the photo is blurred. I love that….


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## sanj (Sep 27, 2014)

Steve said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I've learned that the Sony A7r EVF performance seems to depend on what your pointing at. Not sure why, but there are times when it lags HORRENDOUSLY bad. Part of it is the EVF update speed is related to your chosen exposure...once you get down to large fractions of a second, the EVF lags at that rate. But even at higher frame rates, there are times when panning around when it seems to hit an object or texture or whatever, and that jerks on the lag, and it becomes very visible for a moment or two.
> ...



Yep.


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## Hjalmarg1 (Sep 27, 2014)

sanj said:


> http://www.juzaphoto.com/article.php?l=en&t=from_reflex_to_mirrorless_sony_a5100
> 
> Around 6 years ago when I restarted photography after 15 years (film to digital) I found Juza on internet and learned a lot from his website.


I have also looking after a lighter solution to my DSRL camera and the Sony a6000 is on top of my list. I was also expecting some good news from Canon during photokina but never happened. I wish a EOS-M with similar capabilities of the a6000 in terms of AF speed and accuracy and fps.
I need a smaller camera where I can use my Canon glasses and I would prefer same Canon systems.


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## msm (Sep 27, 2014)

jrista said:


> Maybe there is a way to turn that stuff off...



Bingo!

Menu 2 submenu 2 DISP Button. Set up what information you need (or none) for finder and for screen and cycle through them with the disp button.


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## msm (Sep 27, 2014)

jrista said:


> ...
> I wonder if the low shutter speed issue will always exist. It is probably the single biggest issue...once you get down to 1/30th of a second or slower, it really has a major impact on the EVF frame rate. I got down to 1/4 second at one point...and WOW. I figured the camera would simulate exposure, but it actually seems to really do the exposure you've chosen, even for slow shutter speeds. It really kills the user experience.



Doesn't behave like that for me, surely you must have set something somewhere in the menus.


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## Cali_PH (Sep 27, 2014)

Normally I stay out of these convo's as people tend to get childish and borderline rude, as well as I don't think people's opinions are going to change, right or wrong. But I wanted to correct a few things I noticed:



CaiLeDao said:


> the shutter was noisy and vibrated significantly. put anything long than 100mm lens and the images blurred from this.



From what I read the issue is limited to a certain range of slower shutter speeds ( only around 1/50 or something?), but I haven't tested it since I mainly use 14-50mm on my A7r (landscapes). I just put my 70-200 F/4 on my A7r for the first time to test this and shot from my tripod at 200mm, F4, 1/320, iso100. Results were sharp (well, as sharp as can be expected when I can visibly see heat shimmer coming off the roof I focused on).



> A simple example is I do use the EVF panel at 10 times magnification on the DSLR to get focus on landscapes. the A7R won't do this unless you use Sony branded lenses



I bought the A7R for landscapes too, and in my experience this is not true. Note that I mainly shoot landscape, so my typical setup is on a tripod, zoom in, manual focus, hit the shutter release, which is what you describe. Technically, you're right, it won't zoom in at 10x with Canon lenses; it zooms at 7.2x and 14.4x  I just tried it; you DO have to remember to flip the autofocus switch to manual if your lens has one.

And since I wondered if there were brand-specific issues, I also just grabbed my Rokinon 14mm, Sigma 35A & 50 1.4, and I could zoom in on all of them. Note that I have the Metabones adapter (VIII I think), so it could be possible there's some issue if you used a different brand or version adapter. 



> no remote shutter easily available so make your own etc etc.



Here in the US Sony's RM-VPR1 remote shutter release is readily available on Amazon, Adorama, B&H etc. I'm not sure about outside of the US. Granted, it's expensive and basic, similar to Canon's. A quick glance at Amazon.com shows me there's some cheaper third party ones too. There's also the built-in wireless option, but I'm sure that would reduce the already bad battery life.


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## Cali_PH (Sep 27, 2014)

msm said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



I agree with msm, mine doesn't act like that either; I just pointed it at my TV figuring that would make the effect even more obvious, but I didn't notice any issues with EVF frame rate. I'm wondering if I'm just not noticing it, since above I saw you discuss how you may notice things others don't?


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