# Industry News: Sony Alpha a7S III coming July 28, 2020



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 16, 2020)

> Sony is going to officially announce the Alpha a7S III on July 28, 2020. This camera is probably as highly anticipated as the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6 were.
> Not much is confirmed about this new Sony, but most of the specifications should leak over the coming week or so.
> Sony Addict has reported that the camera will likely come with 4K/60P, 4:2:2, and RAW video. along with passive cooling, though the camera won’t have the same level of weather sealing, as it reportedly has vents on either side of the camera. This design choice helps dissipate heat without the use of a fan, which does create noise.
> It is also rumored to have a 12mp image sensor, which puts it well below...



Continue reading...


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## drama (Jul 16, 2020)

Good. This should considerably reduce the amount of salt from angry Sony users towards Canon products, and the weird group of camera users who exist to complain about camera features on things they're not going to buy will have something new to focus on.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 16, 2020)

drama said:


> Good. This should considerably reduce the amount of salt from angry Sony users towards Canon products, and the weird group of camera users who exist to complain about camera features on things they're not going to buy will have something new to focus on.



I agree. The negative is always louder than the positive on the internet.


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## BeenThere (Jul 16, 2020)

In my mind this is much more of a low light niche camera than the R6. I hope it pleases Sony fanboys.


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## TomR (Jul 16, 2020)

SAR are reporting 4k/120


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## 1D4 (Jul 16, 2020)

drama said:


> Good. This should considerably reduce the amount of salt from angry Sony users towards Canon products, and the weird group of camera users who exist to complain about camera features on things they're not going to buy will have something new to focus on.


Yup, whole lotta faux outrage from people who couldn't afford the R5, never planned on buying the R5, don't shoot video, use slow SD cards, and/or don't even have computers than can handle 8K video.


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## Viggo (Jul 16, 2020)

I read that Sony uses around 600mbps for 4K120 when Canon has almost 1900 mbps. I’m not into video, but doesn’t that mean quite a bit of difference in IQ?


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 16, 2020)

drama said:


> Good. This should considerably reduce the amount of salt from angry Sony users towards Canon products, and the weird group of camera users who exist to complain about camera features on things they're not going to buy will have something new to focus on.


Sadly, it won't. That crap is in their DNA.


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## Twinix (Jul 16, 2020)

I think Sony also is going to make a good camera, just like Canon have done with both the R5 and R6. It will be interesting to see how the A7s III matches the Sony Cinema lineup, and if it will get good autofocus like the Fx9. Will we see hints in the camera of what FX6, Fs5 iii or similar will offer?


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## cornieleous (Jul 16, 2020)

Viggo said:


> I read that Sony uses around 600mbps for 4K120 when Canon has almost 1900 mbps. I’m not into video, but doesn’t that mean quite a bit of difference in IQ?


Yes, I cannot verify those numbers, but in theory the end result may be better image depending on codec used and editing workflow, and the higher bit rate is also likely more heat. Every toggling bit is a small amount of heat. That is why I keep telling all these whiners to talk about equivalent data rates and stop with their inane arguments and comparisons. 

Apples to Apples the R5 and R6 are incredible offerings for video without compromising a thing for stills like these other cameras are. Everyone hated the outdated and heavy 5D4 codec (MP4), but it is detailed and easy on computers as it doesn't require transcoding. While the loss in quality of a lighter and more modern but still compressed codec may be minimal it still may be relevant to some. 

An iphone or GoPro can shoot 4K60 for a long time compared to some of these 'limits' but is hardly comparable in quality to a full frame 45MP sensor with 15 stops of DR and big glass. Every time I see equivalent things compared properly, most of these brands are very close to one another in what they can get out of sensors, readout hardware, thermal dissipation, etc.


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 16, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> In my mind this is much more of a low light niche camera than the R6. I hope it pleases Sony fanboys.



I think this is more video camera than stills camera, but it covers the bases I need and I already have the native lenses. I was considering a system swap this year until the R5/R6 limitations became clear it woudn't work for me. Really wanted my first RF lens this year, but my incoming Komodo doesn't support the RF protocol yet, so I guess I can wait a bit longer!



Viggo said:


> I read that Sony uses around 600mbps for 4K120 when Canon has almost 1900 mbps. I’m not into video, but doesn’t that mean quite a bit of difference in IQ?



Probably, but from a personal opinion, I do feel MILC hybrids should have balanced specs. I don't need top end specs that burn through media cards, and by the time I want maximum bitrates or RAW, MILCs aren't really suited for the task at that point. YMMV


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## TomR (Jul 16, 2020)

SAR is also reporting 240fps in 1080, the R5 can only do 60 fps


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## cornieleous (Jul 16, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Sadly, it won't. That crap is in their DNA.


Certain brands are that way. It always turns me off from those brands. They seem to be form and flashy feature over function and draw in the type of people who treat brands like a religion, as if buying something makes any of us special. Just use what you want and shut it. The real useful discussions are constructive critique, feature wishes, trading tips, or just enjoying our craft together, but there is a massive segment of society that has learned to complain and be a victim about every facet of life. It is getting really grating listening to the irrational few put out so much noise that the rest of us cannot have an adult conversation about anything. You ask people to be constructive and rational, and they accuse you of being a fanboy or not allowing criticism. What can you do?


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 16, 2020)

1D4 said:


> Yup, whole lotta faux outrage from people who couldn't afford the R5, never planned on buying the R5, don't shoot video, use slow SD cards, and/or don't even have computers than can handle 8K video.





cornieleous said:


> Certain brands are that way. It always turns me off from those brands. They seem to be form and flashy feature over function and draw in the type of people who treat brands like a religion, as if buying something makes any of us special. Just use what you want and shut it. The real useful discussions are constructive critique, feature wishes, trading tips, or just enjoying our craft together, but there is a massive segment of society that has learned to complain and be a victim about every facet of life. It is getting really grating listening to the irrational few put out so much noise that the rest of us cannot have an adult conversation about anything. You ask people to be constructive and rational, and they accuse you of being a fanboy or not allowing criticism. What can you do?



People that actually shoot a lot are those that will have something constructive to share mainly through personal experiences or knowledge. It will be clear quite soon who those are. Not saying they are always right in their opinions... But those that clearly don't or never planned to buy anything become quite evident after a handful of posts. Those people can simply be ignored and that goes to both Sony/Fuji/Panny/etc. and Canon shooters. Canon shooters shouldn't by default get a pass here on a Canon-focused discussion group if they purposefully stir the pot for those that shoot the competition. Maybe I'm just too sensitive...


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

I read somewhere that this is going to be an All New camera. Makes me wonder if the horrible menu system is going to be totally redone from scratch? It's not even close to being as easy to use as Canon's.


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## Go Wild (Jul 16, 2020)

This is a videocentric camera, it´s absolutely nonsense to compare it with either EOS R5 or R6 which are photo cameras with remarkable video features. From a photo and video user, there is no comparison, of course R6 and R5 will me a lot better because it can deliver both of the worlds! For a videocentric use, the A7s3 would be better and it must be! It´s a video mirrorless camera. But....Saying this. My believe is that the EOS R5 will not stand behind the A7s3. I believe the 4k of the Canon will be better quality even with the 4k120fps. Sony is rumored to make 4k120fps raw externally but i think it will only make 8 seconds burst. 

The only flaw of Canon is the potencial overheating, but like i said before, we still need to see how big of a problem is! I don´t believe it will be much of a problem! At least not for me! And if or when the R5 overheat I will use the R6 cause I´ll get both!


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 16, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> This is a videocentric camera


Dunno why they don't just stick a SIM card in it, add some Selfie modes, and be done with it...


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## Go Wild (Jul 16, 2020)

Viggo said:


> I read that Sony uses around 600mbps for 4K120 when Canon has almost 1900 mbps. I’m not into video, but doesn’t that mean quite a bit of difference in IQ?


More bitrate, more information, more quality of the file. This is the cold reading however bitrate and quality may vary depending on the codec used.


Keith_Reeder said:


> Dunno why they don't just stick a SIM card in it, add some Selfie modes, and be done with it...


Cause it will overheat!!!


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 16, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> Cause it will overheat!!!


Yeah, but apparently Sony gets a pass for that kind of thing - then they delete the overheating error coding in the firmware, and all is well...


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## amorse (Jul 16, 2020)

Good. I hope it's the perfect camera and solves everyones problems so those who feel it necessary to judge someone else's camera buying decisions can instead just use this and be satisfied. I know a lot of Sony users have been waiting patiently for this body, and I hope it is what they were waiting for.


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## mariosk1gr (Jul 16, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Yes, I cannot verify those numbers, but in theory the end result may be better image depending on codec used and editing workflow, and the higher bit rate is also likely more heat. Every toggling bit is a small amount of heat. That is why I keep telling all these whiners to talk about equivalent data rates and stop with their inane arguments and comparisons.
> 
> Apples to Apples the R5 and R6 are incredible offerings for video without compromising a thing for stills like these other cameras are. Everyone hated the outdated and heavy 5D4 codec (MP4), but it is detailed and easy on computers as it doesn't require transcoding. While the loss in quality of a lighter and more modern but still compressed codec may be minimal it still may be relevant to some.
> 
> An iphone or GoPro can shoot 4K60 for a long time compared to some of these 'limits' but is hardly comparable in quality to a full frame 45MP sensor with 15 stops of DR and big glass. Every time I see equivalent things compared properly, most of these brands are very close to one another in what they can get out of sensors, readout hardware, thermal dissipation, etc.


Exactly! And the most important as you said is that final Canon is on 15 stops of DR with R5 (1Dx III rated with 14.5 stops DR at DxO). That with the 45mp sensor and all the offerings makes the R5 an amazing tool today!!


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## Th0msky (Jul 16, 2020)

tbh I just hope canon releases a dedicated video camera on this R line up that will outperform this upcoming A7s III. The sony camera is really interesting but I want to stick with canon so bad...


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## Andy Westwood (Jul 16, 2020)

I will be interesting to see if Sony go the same way as Canon in only giving selected retailers and Canon explorers of light, pre-production cameras, leaving all the independent camera reviewers out in the cold.

I’m not a fan of this, I’d rather Tony & Chelsea, Jared Polin, Chris and Jordan from DP Review got their hands on these new models on launch and put them through there paces, but for whatever reason Canon aren’t letting it happen this time.


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## Nelu (Jul 16, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> I think this is more video camera than stills camera, but it covers the bases I need and I already have the native lenses. I was considering a system swap this year until the R5/R6 limitations became clear it woudn't work for me. Really wanted my first RF lens this year, but my incoming Komodo doesn't support the RF protocol yet, so I guess I can wait a bit longer!
> 
> 
> 
> Probably, but from a personal opinion, I do feel MILC hybrids should have balanced specs. I don't need top end specs that burn through media cards, and by the time I want maximum bitrates or RAW, MILCs aren't really suited for the task at that point. YMMV


What kind of stills camera would be this in 2020 if the resolution rumors are true (12MP)?
I guess will wait and see the final specs but to me it looks like a 100% video camera, not photo camera.


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## PureClassA (Jul 16, 2020)

The lack of ProResRAW Output on the R5 and R6 is the one thing I really think Canon might come back and add. Especially the R5 which already shoots RAW. You look at Fuji, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic... they are all dropping that feature in their newer, upper end MILCs, because Atomos fully supports this recording mode which is immensely useful if you want to shoot in 12 bit RAW (as the R5 clearly can). 

With Canon’s new aggressive attitude towards things, I think this is a real possibility to come in a firmware update... and really should.


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## H. Jones (Jul 16, 2020)

How many trolls were in the comments of the R6 post about how "20 megapixels isn't enough for literally anything" and are now going to be totally silent about Sony releasing a camera with 12 megapixels in the year 2020?

Granted, I've said it before many times and I'll say it again, I don't really care about megapixels to begin with.

The newspapers I work with require a max resolution of 2 megapixels for FTP transfers, so most of my paid work could be done with a two megapixel camera without any issue. Admittably, I am very excited to get the R5 and be able to massively crop when I need to, but I'd say a vast majority of camera consumers really don't need more than 2 megapixels to post to their social media accounts or even print a two-page wide broadsheet spread in a newspaper.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 16, 2020)

Nelu said:


> What kind of stills camera would be this in 2020 if the resolution rumors are true (12MP)?
> I guess will wait and see the final specs but to me it looks like a 100% video camera, not photo camera.


It will certainly be interesting to see whether Sony users yammer as much about this stills photography compromise in order to make it a better video camera, as certain Canonistas have whined about the video compromises in the R5, which incidentally support its performance as a stills camera...


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 16, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> How many trolls were in the comments of the R6 post about how "20 megapixels isn't enough for literally anything" and are now going to be totally silent about Sony releasing a camera with 12 megapixels in the year 2020?
> 
> Granted, I've said it before many times and I'll say it again, I don't really care about megapixels to begin with.
> 
> The newspapers I work with require a max resolution of 2 megapixels for FTP transfers, so most of my paid work could be done with a two megapixel camera without any issue. Admittably, I am very excited to get the R5 and be able to massively crop when I need to, but I'd say a vast majority of camera consumers really don't need more than 2 megapixels to post to their social media accounts or even print a two-page wide broadsheet spread in a newspaper.


And by extension, I'm willing to bet that the R5's video capabilities would be _more than_ sufficient for any professional use you, and people in your line of work, would put it to...


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## H. Jones (Jul 16, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> And by extension, I'm willing to bet that the R5's video capabilities would be _more than_ sufficient for any professional use you, and people in your line of work, would put it to...



I'll be honest, the majority of the videos the papers I work with run online are shot on cellphones at this point. Anything else has a hard limit of 1080p, and honestly sometimes gets downsized to 720p for social media. 

Admittedly though, advanced video features make my life way easier. Having the flip-out screen will be a huge bonus, the added DPAF tracking in video will make it far easier to get video clips from sporting events, and the **biggest* *bonus to me is that video settings are separate from photography settings. I can't tell you how many times I've been photographing breaking news at 1/1000th, switched to get video clips at 1/60th, and then forgot to switch back to 1/1000th when I'm back shooting stills...Lots of accidental panning shots and blurry images of firefighters.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 16, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> I'll be honest, the majority of the videos the papers I work with run online are shot on cellphones at this point. Anything else has a hard limit of 1080p, and honestly sometimes gets downsized to 720p for social media.
> 
> Admittedly though, advanced video features make my life way easier. Having the flip-out screen will be a huge bonus, the added DPAF tracking in video will make it far easier to get video clips from sporting events, and the **biggest* *bonus to me is that video settings are separate from photography settings. I can't tell you how many times I've been photographing breaking news at 1/1000th, switched to get video clips at 1/60th, and then forgot to switch back to 1/1000th when I'm back shooting stills...Lots of accidental panning shots and blurry images of firefighters.


Sure thing. I'm just making the point _for others _that the likes of the R5 will be absolutely capable of "professional" video use, because "professional" videography isn't _only _stuff such as_ w_hat Peter Jackson does for a living...


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## DBounce (Jul 16, 2020)

TomR said:


> SAR are reporting 4k/120


SAR are insane. They are expecting 16 bit Raw output, [email protected], image quality rivaling an Alexa Mini and zero overheat issues. 
I predict many disappointed Sony users soon.


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## cornieleous (Jul 16, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> tbh I just hope canon releases a dedicated video camera on this R line up that will outperform this upcoming A7s III. The sony camera is really interesting but I want to stick with canon so bad...



Just curious is there a limitation holding you back that the A7S3 addresses? It seems the Canon will have very good 4K in regular and oversampled modes. The overheating doesn't appear to show up as much with the regular 4K modes, and who knows until we have them in the real world. 

However, even the Sony seems like it needed passive cooling and who knows if that means it shoots indefinitely (doubtful)- but they only have to read out 12MP, not 45MP and bin down the pixels. I'm guessing one advantage the Sony might have is low rolling shutter. I've got the pro version of the AX700 with the XLR grip, and while Sony makes great sensors, I find their ergonomics and stabilization frustrating on their camcorder and MILC bodies, at least what I have used (not the latest offerings). I know the newest ones are getting much better, but it is maybe a factor to consider the system rather than one capability. Since Canon does all I need in a robust system that is flawless for me in the field, a few tiny features or capabilities of the next best camera have never bothered me. I would definitely get another Sony if it offered a capability I needed though. Right now all these brands seem neck and neck or near enough to me, that I am buying into the system they offer.


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## H. Jones (Jul 16, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Sure thing. I'm just making the point _for others _that the likes of the R5 will be absolutely capable of "professional" video use, because "professional" videography isn't _only _stuff such as_ w_hat Peter Jackson does for a living...



Oh yeah for sure, I will say even if we were shooting everything in 8K, almost all of our video clips are about 10-30 seconds long at a time. Saves us a lot of editing time on deadline getting exactly the clips we need in camera, versus what we've done when I've worked on documentaries where the cameras are always rolling.

Even during interviews, most of the time I shoot a question and an answer at a time, recording each question in separate clips to keep myself more organized than having to cut a single 20 minute clip into 20 different questions. Normally a question might take 2-3 minutes at most for someone to answer, a little longer if there's some back and forth or follow up question in the middle of that.


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## TomR (Jul 16, 2020)

DBounce said:


> SAR are insane. They are expecting 16 bit Raw output, [email protected], image quality rivaling an Alexa Mini and zero overheat issues.
> I predict many disappointed Sony users soon.



16bit raw are for stills, i guess we'll see if the rest is true


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## DBounce (Jul 16, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> tbh I just hope canon releases a dedicated video camera on this R line up that will outperform this upcoming A7s III. The sony camera is really interesting but I want to stick with canon so bad...


What about it is interesting? No specs have been released from Sony?


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## DBounce (Jul 16, 2020)

TomR said:


> 16bit raw are for stills, i guess we'll see if the rest is true


No... this is for raw output.


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## melgross (Jul 16, 2020)

DBounce said:


> No... this is for raw output.


RAW video? Sony just does 12 bits for stills with compression. I don't believe that anything uses 16 bit video, unless it’s the military and NASA.


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## Tugela (Jul 16, 2020)

Viggo said:


> I read that Sony uses around 600mbps for 4K120 when Canon has almost 1900 mbps. I’m not into video, but doesn’t that mean quite a bit of difference in IQ?



Nope. The 1900 mbps is for compressed raw recorded on the camera. The Sony raw will be recorded off camera, so the bit rate would be whatever you set the recorder at.

The a7SIII will likely be a much better video camera than either the R5 or R6. Not so good for stills though, the R5 would be best for those, with the R6 somewhere inbetween.

We will need to wait until all three cameras are in user hands to see how it all pans out in practice though, but I think the Sony will win on video with the R% being primarily a stills camera.


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## Tugela (Jul 16, 2020)

1D4 said:


> Yup, whole lotta faux outrage from people who couldn't afford the R5, never planned on buying the R5, don't shoot video, use slow SD cards, and/or don't even have computers than can handle 8K video.



The a7SIII will likely cost about the same as the R5.


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## BeenThere (Jul 16, 2020)

Andy Westwood said:


> I will be interesting to see if Sony go the same way as Canon in only giving selected retailers and Canon explorers of light, pre-production cameras, leaving all the independent camera reviewers out in the cold.
> 
> I’m not a fan of this, I’d rather Tony & Chelsea, Jared Polin, Chris and Jordan from DP Review got their hands on these new models on launch and put them through there paces, but for whatever reason Canon aren’t letting it happen this time.


The click bate reviewers pick out some trivial feature that is lacking and beats it to death in headline reviews to draw viewers to their site. How many independent reviewers would you call “fair & balanced”? Most have an ax to grind one way or another. Of course the Explorers of light are also biased, but at least show you the possibilities while generally playing down any negatives.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 16, 2020)

Tugela said:


> The a7SIII will likely be a much better video camera than either the R5 or R6.


Why, exactly? 

Honest question.


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## Tugela (Jul 16, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Yes, I cannot verify those numbers, but in theory the end result may be better image depending on codec used and editing workflow, and the higher bit rate is also likely more heat. Every toggling bit is a small amount of heat. That is why I keep telling all these whiners to talk about equivalent data rates and stop with their inane arguments and comparisons.
> 
> Apples to Apples the R5 and R6 are incredible offerings for video without compromising a thing for stills like these other cameras are. Everyone hated the outdated and heavy 5D4 codec (MP4), but it is detailed and easy on computers as it doesn't require transcoding. While the loss in quality of a lighter and more modern but still compressed codec may be minimal it still may be relevant to some.
> 
> An iphone or GoPro can shoot 4K60 for a long time compared to some of these 'limits' but is hardly comparable in quality to a full frame 45MP sensor with 15 stops of DR and big glass. Every time I see equivalent things compared properly, most of these brands are very close to one another in what they can get out of sensors, readout hardware, thermal dissipation, etc.



Heat comes from compression efficiency, not bit rate as such, lmao. That is why earlier Canon cameras had such high bit rates in 4K modes, they had to use mjpeg to do the encoding because the processor would have fried if they tried to do it with H.264.


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## TomR (Jul 16, 2020)

DBounce said:


> No... this is for raw output.



id be impressed if it did


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## Tugela (Jul 16, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Why, exactly?
> 
> Honest question.



No overheating, no pixel binning/line skipping, better S/N ratio from larger pixels etc. High resolution sensors are good for stills work, not so great for video work. The R5 is primarily a stills camera, the R6 a hybrid and the a7SIII will be primarily a video camera. So, depending on what exactly you plan to do with the camera, you would choose between the three on that basis.


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## amorse (Jul 16, 2020)

If there is one thing we can be sure of, it's that within moments of this announcement we'll be flooded with youtube videos comparing the announced spec sheet against the R5 and R6.


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## Tugela (Jul 16, 2020)

melgross said:


> RAW video? Sony just does 12 bits for stills with compression. I don't believe that anything uses 16 bit video, unless it’s the military and NASA.



Raw is not compressed. The sensor supposedly going into the camera has a 16 bit ADC, so raw will be 16 bit.


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## Tugela (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I read somewhere that this is going to be an All New camera. Makes me wonder if the horrible menu system is going to be totally redone from scratch? It's not even close to being as easy to use as Canon's.



IMO Canon can take some lessons from Sony in menu design. Canon menus are terrible and awkward to use, while Sony menus are second nature.


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## Kit. (Jul 16, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Why, exactly?
> 
> Honest question.


Why not?

After all, it would be a much worse photo camera, with resolution and weather sealing sacrificed for video performance.


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## Tugela (Jul 16, 2020)

Nelu said:


> What kind of stills camera would be this in 2020 if the resolution rumors are true (12MP)?
> I guess will wait and see the final specs but to me it looks like a 100% video camera, not photo camera.



Supposedly it has a quad beyer sensor, so it is actually a 48MP sensor, but without that mode enabled apparently. So in theory it could rival the R5 for stills if they wanted it to. I imagine they would use the same sensor in something like the a7IV when that comes out.


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## Tugela (Jul 16, 2020)

amorse said:


> If there is one thing we can be sure of, it's that within moments of this announcement we'll be flooded with youtube videos comparing the announced spec sheet against the R5 and R6.



They are different cameras for different applications, so those comparisons will be for specific purposes. I think most people are probably going to be comparing the video modes though.


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## ericjon23 (Jul 16, 2020)

ew, sony.


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## Kit. (Jul 16, 2020)

Tugela said:


> The R5 is primarily a stills camera, the R6 a hybrid


Actually, the R5 looks like more of a video camera than the R6.
R5 has both a 8K mode and a non-overheating 4K mode.
R6 has neither.



Tugela said:


> Supposedly it has a quad beyer sensor, so it is actually a 48MP sensor, but without that mode enabled apparently. So in theory it could rival the R5 for stills if they wanted it to.


Quad Bayer has a very poor color resolution.


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## BeenThere (Jul 16, 2020)

Tugela said:


> IMO Canon can take some lessons from Sony in menu design. Canon menus are terrible and awkward to use, while Sony menus are second nature.


un huh


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## Pixel (Jul 16, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> The click bate reviewers pick out some trivial feature that is lacking and beats it to death in headline reviews to draw viewers to their site. How many independent reviewers would you call “fair & balanced”? Most have an ax to grind one way or another. Of course the Explorers of light are also biased, but at least show you the possibilities while generally playing down any negatives.


You can't put a camera thru it's paces when you only have beta firmware. The camera was sent out to show off it's hardware features.


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## DBounce (Jul 16, 2020)

TomR said:


> id be impressed if it did


Me too... but let’s be real... sounds a bit far fetched.


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## Del Paso (Jul 16, 2020)

Tugela said:


> IMO Canon can take some lessons from Sony in menu design. Canon menus are terrible and awkward to use, while Sony menus are second nature.


Are you kidding ?


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## Nelu (Jul 16, 2020)

Tugela said:


> IMO Canon can take some lessons from Sony in menu design. Canon menus are terrible and awkward to use, while Sony menus are second nature.


You know, I hope this was a joke and I didn't get it.
Sony menus are so ugly that only their mother could love them!


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## Viggo (Jul 16, 2020)

I think I smell a troll...


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## Wallybud (Jul 16, 2020)

Did no one see that the Sony sensor is possibly a stacked quad bayer that would effectively be able to toggle between 12mp for video and 48mp for stills? However apparently they are saying the feature will be turned off. I’m not super techy on all that stuff but it’s all over in their comments section etc. thoughts?


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## chrisgibbs (Jul 17, 2020)

As a former 5D3 shooter, one who switched to Sony with initial introduction of the A7R, I'm eager to test the new R5. Things I don't like with the current Sony's are:

1. The IBIS rattles when camera is powered off (hopefully the R5 parks & locks its IBIS [Nikon's Z does, best IBIS to date IMO]).
2. No flippy screen (the R5 fixes this)
3. The A7 has no dedicated "LCD OFF" button, and even after setting a custom button, still flashes ON when camera turns on initially, it's anoying as hell (not an issue with the flippy screen and my reason for wanting one)
4. Activation from OFF is still a little slow on the A7's

That's it really, great output (that's the bottom line right), good AF, easy to customize, so there's no need to dive into the menus.

One area Sony are ahead of the Canon, the A9 has an extra two steps on the electronic shutter, 1/16,000 & 1/32,000, great for wide-open shooting on those f/1.2 primes (if & when they arrive). This is my one disappointment with the R5 so far.


----------



## marioslrzn (Jul 17, 2020)

Tugela said:


> No overheating, no pixel binning/line skipping, better S/N ratio from larger pixels etc. High resolution sensors are good for stills work, not so great for video work. The R5 is primarily a stills camera, the R6 a hybrid and the a7SIII will be primarily a video camera. So, depending on what exactly you plan to do with the camera, you would choose between the three on that basis.


That’s debata cause the 4k on r5 is going to be much better is using 4K high quality and if you’re using an external recorder, should be no heat issues or limitations of videos specs from the A7Siii, plus the added 8k raw when you need it


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 17, 2020)

Nelu said:


> What kind of stills camera would be this in 2020 if the resolution rumors are true (12MP)?
> I guess will wait and see the final specs but to me it looks like a 100% video camera, not photo camera.



If the rumour about 16bit raw is true, it'll be very good in low light.


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## jvillain (Jul 17, 2020)

Heck of a month. Canon anounced the R twins. BMD anounced a completly insane 12K UMP with whole new sensor tech this morning. Now Sony is releasing a limp noodle.


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 17, 2020)

It actually looks ok. Thankfully it seems they have fully come to their senses and learned that ergonomics really do matter. Body is supposed to be similar to the A7r4 which while nowhere near as good as the Canon bodies was a massive improvement on the older bodies.


----------



## Go Wild (Jul 17, 2020)

Off topic: Have you seen the review of the R6 from DPreview? They have loved the R6 and they record the episode with the R5 handheld and the video colors and stability are amazing! About over heating he only experienced overheating with 4k60fps but after 29 minutes continuous shooting. In 4k 25fps not a single problem.
This just ads a bit more anxiety to me to get this babies!


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## Th0msky (Jul 17, 2020)

DBounce said:


> What about it is interesting? No specs have been released from Sony?


the rumoured specs look quite promissing to me. especially as a videographer.


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## Th0msky (Jul 17, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Just curious is there a limitation holding you back that the A7S3 addresses? It seems the Canon will have very good 4K in regular and oversampled modes. The overheating doesn't appear to show up as much with the regular 4K modes, and who knows until we have them in the real world.


Well yeah I'm excited about the R6 because it looks to me more like a video camera than the R5. But the fact that even the R6 overheats with relatively regular video specs concerns me when I'd use it by the time i'm filming something for a client. Or imagine having a wedding and you get important unexpected parts you have to record but suddenly you can't because your camera is overheated and has to cooldown.

really, the R6 offers me everything I'd LOVE to have, but if it overheats, then I really might pass on it. If sony offers the same things or even better things with the A7s, and it doesn't overheat, then yeah I might take the sony instead. Although I completely agree with you that canon has better ergonomics and stabalization.


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## scyrene (Jul 17, 2020)

Tugela said:


> Supposedly it has a quad beyer sensor, so it is actually a 48MP sensor, but without that mode enabled apparently.



But earlier you said



Tugela said:


> better S/N ratio from larger pixels etc. High resolution sensors are good for stills work, not so great for video work.



So which is it?

I'm generally out of my technical depth when it comes to video, but if one sensor is "really" 48MP and combining groups of 4 pixels together to act as 12MP, and another is 45MP, ad both are producing 4K video (say), how is there a noise advantage to one over the other? They're producing video of the same resolution from virtually the same starting point, aren't they?


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jul 17, 2020)

scyrene said:


> But earlier you said
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not sure about noise but a traditional 45MP sensor should produce better results than a quad-bayer 48MP where 4 adjacent pixels have the same color.


----------



## DBounce (Jul 17, 2020)

Th0msky said:


> Well yeah I'm excited about the R6 because it looks to me more like a video camera than the R5. But the fact that even the R6 overheats with relatively regular video specs concerns me when I'd use it by the time i'm filming something for a client. Or imagine having a wedding and you get important unexpected parts you have to record *but suddenly you can't because your camera is overheated and has to cooldown*.
> 
> really, the R6 offers me everything I'd LOVE to have, but if it overheats, then I really might pass on it. If sony offers the same things or even better things with the A7s, and it doesn't overheat, then yeah I might take the sony instead. Although I completely agree with you that canon has better ergonomics and stabalization.



There is no, “*Suddenly you can’t record*” conditions on the R5. It restricts the modes that you can record in... that’s all. You can still record [email protected], pixel binned like a Sony A7RIV... But you do so in 10 Bit 422. And guess what? You can still take pictures.
As for IBIS on the A7S3... if you’re going by rumors, there is no IBIS listed for the A7S3. Unless we’re just adding our own specs now?


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> Oh yeah for sure, I will say even if we were shooting everything in 8K, almost all of our video clips are about 10-30 seconds long at a time. Saves us a lot of editing time on deadline getting exactly the clips we need in camera, versus what we've done when I've worked on documentaries where the cameras are always rolling.
> 
> Even during interviews, most of the time I shoot a question and an answer at a time, recording each question in separate clips to keep myself more organized than having to cut a single 20 minute clip into 20 different questions. Normally a question might take 2-3 minutes at most for someone to answer, a little longer if there's some back and forth or follow up question in the middle of that.



When I do interviews, I like to let the flow happen, and keep a couple different angles running through the whole thing (maybe 90 minutes), rather than have people stop and start. I think this is important to the sort of content I do at times. But using some lower bitrate/lower processing format is fine for this. These sorts of talking head bits aren't very well served with massive resolution. 

The genre where it's slightly more problematic is performances. The long-play 4k stuff is useful, especially when you have challenging lighting situations. Later downsampling helps a lot for me. I also will often employ one or two remote cameras during performances, and there's no one to ride the record button, as it would involve interrupting the show. For this reason, the 30 minute limit is also a significant downside. I think I'll need to adapt on that one with a set of remote trigger, which isn't the biggest deal, but I'm absolutely positive I'll screw that up multiple times.

None of this concerns me too too much, as I do 99 percent stills.


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2020)

Tugela said:


> IMO Canon can take some lessons from Sony in menu design. Canon menus are terrible and awkward to use, while Sony menus are second nature.



I could be wrong, but I'm assuming the above is sarcastic. No offense if it was not meant to be. To each their own. I figured I'd comment on some recent experiences...

I've had an abject lesson in menu system design over the past 18 months. I've been primarily using three different systems serially due to various circumstances. I came originally from Canon, so I had most familiarity (bias?) with that. The short version:
- Panasonic was slightly better than Canon. This was with the S1r, their more modern take on it. Took me 2 days to be as proficient with menus as with Canon. 3rd day, it was easier.
- Sony was disastrous. Spent more than a year with it and am still shooting it some. Periodic "treasure hunts" to not only find where a feature is hidden, but then also sometimes a debugging to figure out which feature needs to be set differently to allow another feature to do what you need. Panasonic was best at addressing this, as they'd have a pop-up tell you exactly why you couldn't do x with y feature at the moment, until you changed that other setting. It was the most disciplined. The Sony "My menu" feature helps for 70 percent of things, but the other 30 percent are maddening. It was a testament to Sony's superiority for my purposes (high res and tracking) that its menus were tolerated. 
- Canon is quite reliably organized and deliberately simplified. It's hard to tell that this has been done unless you've done interface work yourself. It is a simpler menu system, but could use another layer of tabs once the screen resolution allows it. 

I attribute Panasonic's superiority to the fact that they adapted the higher pixel EVFs and screens first, and when they developed that S1R menu system, they added a layer of tabs, so you have two meta layers of organization, versus one. They had the screen space, and the other manufacturers, like Canon, did not. Also, their helpful notes for each feature that is grayed out reduces much frustration. 

Sony still hasn't hired someone with decision-making power to design menus around user functionality versus an organization of technical capacity. Here's the hint when you buy a new product: If the manual reads as an organized list of functions you see in the menus, the system was likely designed and documented by someone hired by the engineers to adequately describe the features. If the manual is organized by user objective, showing the little processes needed to accomplish the most important objectives a user might have, then that is lightly designed and documented by people hired for the purpose. 

I'm back in the Canon R camp now, and the menus are one of the advantages.


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## Sibir Lupus (Jul 17, 2020)

TomR said:


> SAR is also reporting 240fps in 1080, the R5 can only do 60 fps



1080p at 60 FPS on the R5 looks to be a software limited feature, and not hardware. The camera hardware can do 4K at 120 FPS, and 4K (at 30 FPS for example) is 4 times the pixels/data then 1080p at 30 FPS. So theoretically, the R5's hardware should be able to handle 1080p at 480 FPS, but that will be at a pretty limited recording time due to heat buildup. Probably similar to the 4K at 120 FPS recording time on the R5. This is all in theory of course, and could only really be proven by unlocking 1080p at 480 FPS with something like Magic Lantern and running it through tests.


----------



## yungfat (Jul 17, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> I agree. The negative is always louder than the positive on the internet.


 Agreed. Those who no intention to buy will always complain more than those “real” purchaser.


----------



## yungfat (Jul 17, 2020)

Nelu said:


> What kind of stills camera would be this in 2020 if the resolution rumors are true (12MP)?
> I guess will wait and see the final specs but to me it looks like a 100% video camera, not photo camera.



when canon announced 20MP camera on 2020, to Sony fan, it’s outdated hardware.

when Sony announces 12MP camera on 2020, Sony fans will tell you this is best video camera and King of the low light for stills.

sick....


----------



## chrisgibbs (Jul 17, 2020)

yungfat said:


> when canon announced 20MP camera on 2020, to Sony fan, it’s outdated hardware.
> 
> when Sony announces 12MP camera on 2020, Sony fans will tell you this is best video camera and King of the low light for stills.
> 
> sick....



I recon 12MP would be a show stopper for stills guys, barring a few *working/agency* news photographers. Unless there's some truly cutting edge tech within its going to become videography centric, rather than proper hybrid Camera for still photographers. You may find a lot of former Canon shooters coming back to the fold, if the 12MP rumor is correct and its merely a warmed over 12MP sensor, but they will pick up a lot a videographers. 

Personally, I'd buy the A7Slll *in a heartbeat* if it came in with a 36(ish) MP sensor, why not just downsample it to 4K and keep the photogs happy too?

For stills I thought Sony's original 36MP sensor was right on the mark, great for cropping, but not too large for fast post work, unlike their new 61MP sensor.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 17, 2020)

scyrene said:


> So which is it?
> 
> I'm generally out of my technical depth when it comes to video, but if one sensor is "really" 48MP and combining groups of 4 pixels together to act as 12MP, and another is 45MP, ad both are producing 4K video (say), how is there a noise advantage to one over the other? They're producing video of the same resolution from virtually the same starting point, aren't they?


Yep. this is why I'm asking - simply quoting some spec differences doesn't tell anyone why one is better than another, or why.


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## chrisgibbs (Jul 17, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Yep. this is why I'm asking - simply quoting some spec differences doesn't tell anyone why one is better than another, or why.



Processing anything from my archive, going back to the 5D2, all the way though to the 61MP Sony A7RlV, there really is little in it with standard subject matter. Never once have I thought, "crap, I wish this 5Dll file was an A7RlV file." If its a good portrait and the eyes are sharp etc, I'm more than happy with either.

The biggest advantage Sony have had over the 5D2 DSLR was the EyeAF, that made my job way easier. Now the Canon R5's have comparable EyeAF, it's a pretty level playing field.

Getting back to your 48MP *quality* question. It won't amount to a hill of beans IMO. As long as it's in the general ballpark quality wise of the 5D2, I'd buy it and not worry about it. I recently had a loaner of the A7RlV & 135/1.8GM from Sony Pro Services. That combination is phenomenal if you like viewing LARGE DETAILED files, the lens is basically flawless, the camera resolves to the nth degree, but being honest, the IBIS still rattled, the LCD didn't flip, and it still felt like an industrial tool, not an artistic tool, if you know what I mean. 

If the A7Slll gives me a flippy screen, an IBIS that parks like Nikon's Z and offers an innovative (read upgraded) user experience I'll buy it, even if the resolution takes a slight ding over the A7Rlll I currently shoot. As I said previously, the 36MP A7R was great, the 5D2 I used alongside it was perfectly adequate. 

FUJI get this concept. If you're interested in objective criticism, ask me how FUJI have gotten a few things *SPOT IN.*


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## melgross (Jul 17, 2020)

Tugela said:


> Raw is not compressed. The sensor supposedly going into the camera has a 16 bit ADC, so raw will be 16 bit.


I know RAW is not ALWAYS compressed. But Nikon and Sony have compressed RAW. I don't recall if Canon dies as well. And 16 bit is still. N it video.


----------



## melgross (Jul 17, 2020)

Tugela said:


> IMO Canon can take some lessons from Sony in menu design. Canon menus are terrible and awkward to use, while Sony menus are second nature.


Sony is acknowledged to have about the worst menus out there. Additionally, unlike Canon, every Sony camera line gas a completely different menu system. It’s as though they have different UI teams for every camera line, and even every camera, and they never get together.


----------



## degos (Jul 17, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> How many trolls were in the comments of the R6 post about how "20 megapixels isn't enough for literally anything" and are now going to be totally silent about Sony releasing a camera with 12 megapixels in the year 2020?



For my needs, 20MP is uncompetitive and 12MP is laughable.

Happy now?


----------



## B77 (Jul 18, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> People that actually shoot a lot are those that will have something constructive to share mainly through personal experiences or knowledge. It will be clear quite soon who those are. Not saying they are always right in their opinions... But those that clearly don't or never planned to buy anything become quite evident after a handful of posts. Those people can simply be ignored and that goes to both Sony/Fuji/Panny/etc. and Canon shooters. Canon shooters shouldn't by default get a pass here on a Canon-focused discussion group if they purposefully stir the pot for those that shoot the competition. Maybe I'm just too sensitive...



Exactly! I get it, it's Canon fan forum, but some people really can't master some critical judgement towards various brands.

What is the most ridiculous to me is why would anybody pre-order a camera they've never even seen a single picture from? You have 0 clue what the camera produces, all you've seen is the specs. I take it people that pre-ordered don't understand the connection between software and hardware and that you can have exactly the same hardware in 2 cameras with different softwares and get a wildly different result. All they see is a Canon logo and they blindly buy it and then complain about it like with EOS R.

It takes some critical thinking for constructive debate. And let's be honest, for a $4.000 camera, overheating should not be an issue. Panasonic has had cooling fans in its S1 variations since early 2019... this trend to go for lighter cameras, so it's easier for vloggers to hold it is ridiculous. Only solution for overheating issues is larger case with better cooling, so why would you sabotage a great camera's functionality for the sake of looks is beyond me...


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 18, 2020)

Tugela said:


> Raw is not compressed. The sensor supposedly going into the camera has a 16 bit ADC, so raw will be 16 bit.


16 bit electronic shutter?


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## Alam (Jul 18, 2020)

TomR said:


> SAR is also reporting 240fps in 1080, the R5 can only do 60 fps


Yeah, but will you hang heatsink around your neck to cool down 12 megapixel camera?


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## TomR (Jul 18, 2020)

Alam said:


> Yeah, but will you hang heatsink around your neck to cool down 12 megapixel camera?



or maybe they figured out how to cool the sensor?


----------



## chrisgibbs (Jul 18, 2020)

melgross said:


> Sony is acknowledged to have about the worst menus out there. Additionally, unlike Canon, every Sony camera line gas a completely different menu system. It’s as though they have different UI teams for every camera line, and even every camera, and they never get together.



I want menus like Hasselblad and PhaseOne offer on their cameras.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 18, 2020)

B77 said:


> And let's be honest, for a $4.000 camera, overheating should not be an issue.


You saying so doesn't make it a given. And for many, (who knows - most?) the heat _won't be_ an issue anyway.


> Panasonic has had cooling fans in its S1 variations since early 2019...


Clearly Canon decided to go a different way - and I suspect it knows its target audience better than you or I.

There are clear _dis_advantages to adding cooling fans - they've been articulated here eloquently enough - so the _very worst thing_ that can be said about the R5 is that it's probably not for everyone.

Now lets see how many cameras Canon sells compared to Panasonic - that's the only meaningful metric when it comes to deciding which company got it right.

Oh - and how are the Pannys as stills cameras, incidentally? _I don't see many about. _

What about their lens selection?


> so why would you sabotage a great camera's functionality for the sake of looks is beyond me...


They've done no such thing. They've simply made a judgement about how the camera will best satisfy its target market.


----------



## Alam (Jul 18, 2020)

TomR said:


> or maybe they figured out how to cool the sensor?


According SAR they will have passive heatsink
They claim vents will prevent water from i gressing

Idk, probably they are using forcefield


----------



## jedy (Jul 18, 2020)

Gosh the Sony hating fanboys on here. Just as bad as the Canon hating fanboys on SAR. Can’t you lot just be happy that we consumers are about to get a bunch of new cameras without the childish antics.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 18, 2020)

jedy said:


> Gosh the Sony hating fanboys on here. Just as bad as the Canon hating fanboys on SAR. Can’t you lot just be happy that we consumers are about to get a bunch of new cameras without the childish antics.


Where's the "Sony hating"? You're reading tone into the posts here that simply isn't there. 

Says more about you, I reckon.


----------



## jedy (Jul 18, 2020)

amorse said:


> If there is one thing we can be sure of, it's that within moments of this announcement we'll be flooded with youtube videos comparing the announced spec sheet against the R5 and R6.






Yep, exactly that clickbait nonsense right here.


----------



## Czardoom (Jul 18, 2020)

B77 said:


> Exactly! I get it, it's Canon fan forum, but some people really can't master some critical judgement towards various brands.
> 
> What is the most ridiculous to me is why would anybody pre-order a camera they've never even seen a single picture from? You have 0 clue what the camera produces, all you've seen is the specs. I take it people that pre-ordered don't understand the connection between software and hardware and that you can have exactly the same hardware in 2 cameras with different softwares and get a wildly different result. All they see is a Canon logo and they blindly buy it and then complain about it like with EOS R.
> 
> It takes some critical thinking for constructive debate. And let's be honest, for a $4.000 camera, overheating should not be an issue. Panasonic has had cooling fans in its S1 variations since early 2019... this trend to go for lighter cameras, so it's easier for vloggers to hold it is ridiculous. Only solution for overheating issues is larger case with better cooling, so why would you sabotage a great camera's functionality for the sake of looks is beyond me...



Lots of ridiculous assertions here. Any Canon owner has a pretty good idea what to expect. So, far more than a "0 clue," as people are familiar with Canon ergonomics, color science, handling, screen menus, and reliability among other things. I think people that pre-ordered understand that these two cameras have many similarities in hardware and software - more then the usual for the 5 and 6 series cameras. Because of that, they are not going to get wildly different results. I see that you are new here, so I will forgive you in your last sentence of the paragraph..."All they see is a Canon logo and they blindly buy it and then complain about it like with EOS R." I almost laughed out loud when I read that. If you have spent any time on this forum, you would know that most people here are skeptical whenever a new Canon camera is announced. The expectation is far more negative than positive. So hardly anyone is blindly buying it because of the Canon logo. Quite the contrary - and your are completely wrong about the reaction to the R. It was absolutely destroyed in the forum leading up to its release. And then when people actually bought it, they found it to be far better than they thought.

Nor do you understand Canon's design philosophy regarding the R5 (have you seen any of the material on it?) Let's be honest, almost all FF DSLRs have had heating issues with video. The price is irrelevant to that fact. Panasonic is the exception and the reason is twofold. First, their FF model is designed primarily as a video camera first (that is after all what Panasonic dies best). That is why it has cooling fans. And because it has cooling fans, it is about 33% larger and 38% heavier than the R5. (Not to mention , it is more expensive). Canon stated that the R5 is meant to be a stills camera first and meant to be in line with their 5 series FF cameras of the past. So, similar in size, weight and ergonomics - and perhaps most importantly, weather sealing and build quality. Why, because those things are most likely more important to the series 5 photographer. It is hardly "for the sake of looks" as you have surmised.


----------



## dirtyvu (Jul 19, 2020)

TomR said:


> SAR is also reporting 240fps in 1080, the R5 can only do 60 fps



canon also said 1080p120 is coming soon with a firmware update.


----------



## dirtyvu (Jul 19, 2020)

chrisgibbs said:


> As a former 5D3 shooter, one who switched to Sony with initial introduction of the A7R, I'm eager to test the new R5. Things I don't like with the current Sony's are:
> 
> 1. The IBIS rattles when camera is powered off (hopefully the R5 parks & locks its IBIS [Nikon's Z does, best IBIS to date IMO]).
> 2. No flippy screen (the R5 fixes this)
> ...



I borrowed my friend's sony a7r3 for 5 photoshoots so I feel pretty comfortable with it. I loved the resolution and clarity. But what ultimately made me not like the camera was the insane buffering. It's the worst buffering of any device I have ever used. You literally can't do anything while the buffer is writing down. You can't change settings, you can look at images, you can't do anything. I can't wait to get the R5.


----------



## dirtyvu (Jul 19, 2020)

B77 said:


> It takes some critical thinking for constructive debate. And let's be honest, for a $4.000 camera, overheating should not be an issue. Panasonic has had cooling fans in its S1 variations since early 2019... this trend to go for lighter cameras, so it's easier for vloggers to hold it is ridiculous. Only solution for overheating issues is larger case with better cooling, so why would you sabotage a great camera's functionality for the sake of looks is beyond me...



what's the experience like using that Panasonic in the rain? Oh, wait...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 19, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> So hardly anyone is blindly buying it because of the Canon logo.


In fact, lets tear this down a little more.

Nobody but an absolute beginner would buy a camera purely on the basis of the logo it sports: and most beginners would be so influenced by the endless torrent of Canon-bashing ordure on the internet (even here, on a nominally pro-Canon website) that they'd "know" never to go within a million miles of one!



The stark, troll-busting reality of the matter is that people who buy Canon _know what they're doing. _They know not to expect perfection, but they have the emotional and intellectual intelligence to recognise _bloody good_ when they see it; and either aren't affected by, or are able to deal effectively with, supposed Canon "failings".

Simply put, we know what works for us.

To suggest that we might persist in using gear which routinely fails to deliver out of blind, gullible brand loyalty, is beyond asinine.

Case in point - me.

I started as a Nikon shooter, back in D70 days (I really liked that camera); was horrified by how appalling the D200 I "upgraded" to was; and moved to a Canon 30D - around 2006.

*So that's one brand change.*

I've been with Canon pretty much ever since, but at the end of last year and into this, I gave Olympus a serious chance, due to a chronic shoulder problem that made waving a Canon pro body and 500mm f/4 around handheld, impossible.

Olympus _on paper _was a perfect next step. I bought an E-M1X, m.Zuiko 300mm Pro f/4, m.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8, and TCs - a theoretical match and then some for what my Canon kit did for me, in a _much_ smaller, lighter package.

*That's another brand change.*

But it didn't work out: I'm good at dealing with noisy files, but Oly image quality really fell off a cliff in proper low light bird/wildlife shooting conditions, and it took far more work than I was willing to put into the files, to get them anywhere near to the standard of IQ I was after.

Much worse, the 300mm with TCs on flatly refused to lock focus in even marginally less than perfect light (a bird only slightly shaded by a branch, for example), light which my Canon gear would have no problem working perfectly in.

(Olympus UK's advice? "_Take the converter off, then..._")

I sold the Oly kit off (at a substantial loss) and came back to Canon.

*Another brand change.*

The notion we define ourselves by a camera logo is demonstrably arrant bloody nonsense. Canon gear _just works. _And I can say that against a background of not just _trying_ but _owning _cameras and lenses from other firms.

Even though my Olympus adventure was ultimately disappointing, I still defend Oly from its trolls on 43rumors.com because there's a lot to like about Olympus equipment; because I understand (a fact lost to many, it would appear) that my experiences aren't _everybody's _experiences; and because I'm not so dazzled by the Canon logo that I'm blinded to the merits of other camera companies.


----------



## chrisgibbs (Jul 19, 2020)

dirtyvu said:


> I borrowed my friend's sony a7r3 for 5 photoshoots so I feel pretty comfortable with it. I loved the resolution and clarity. But what ultimately made me not like the camera was the insane buffering. It's the worst buffering of any device I have ever used. You literally can't do anything while the buffer is writing down. You can't change settings, you can look at images, you can't do anything. I can't wait to get the R5.



Sony kinda screwed the pooch here, look at the card slots, the second slot is the slow "Memory Stick" compatible thing, terrible idea as it slows the fast slot down when shooting to two cards. Having said that, you can work around it, I have on many occasion, its not a big issue unless you're a sports shooter, and if you are, you'd be shooting the A9ll anyways. I think the same thing happened with the original A9 too, that silly memory stick duo slot again............ I think Sony FINALLY killed that silly duo card slot, alleluia, lol. 

Let's hope the R5's SD card slot doesn't screwup the write speed on the R5's CFExpress slot, or you'll be back to shooting one fast slot only, like the A7Rlll and old A9.

These cameras are ALL full of compromises, it's a case of finding a camera thats compromises least effect your shooting requirements.


----------



## jedy (Jul 19, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> Lots of ridiculous assertions here. Any Canon owner has a pretty good idea what to expect. So, far more than a "0 clue," as people are familiar with Canon ergonomics, color science, handling, screen menus, and reliability among other things. I think people that pre-ordered understand that these two cameras have many similarities in hardware and software - more then the usual for the 5 and 6 series cameras. Because of that, they are not going to get wildly different results. I see that you are new here, so I will forgive you in your last sentence of the paragraph..."All they see is a Canon logo and they blindly buy it and then complain about it like with EOS R." I almost laughed out loud when I read that. If you have spent any time on this forum, you would know that most people here are skeptical whenever a new Canon camera is announced. The expectation is far more negative than positive. So hardly anyone is blindly buying it because of the Canon logo. Quite the contrary - and your are completely wrong about the reaction to the R. It was absolutely destroyed in the forum leading up to its release. And then when people actually bought it, they found it to be far better than they thought.
> 
> Nor do you understand Canon's design philosophy regarding the R5 (have you seen any of the material on it?) Let's be honest, almost all FF DSLRs have had heating issues with video. The price is irrelevant to that fact. Panasonic is the exception and the reason is twofold. First, their FF model is designed primarily as a video camera first (that is after all what Panasonic dies best). That is why it has cooling fans. And because it has cooling fans, it is about 33% larger and 38% heavier than the R5. (Not to mention , it is more expensive). Canon stated that the R5 is meant to be a stills camera first and meant to be in line with their 5 series FF cameras of the past. So, similar in size, weight and ergonomics - and perhaps most importantly, weather sealing and build quality. Why, because those things are most likely more important to the series 5 photographer. It is hardly "for the sake of looks" as you have surmised.


If the R5 is meant to be a stills camera first then why did Canon heavily promote the video specs and why did they include 8K (that no one really needs) that has meant very significant recording restrictions due to overheating/cooling off time, especially with 4K?


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## Skyscraperfan (Jul 19, 2020)

Canon should really bring out a 12MP camera, as that could help against the bad low light performance of Canon sensors. For years I used the 1D Mark II with only 8.2 megapixels and even that resolution is enough for a poster of 60x40 centimetres, which you typically look at from more than one metre distance. 

My current Canon camera has 18 megapixels and very bad dark noise even at ISO 100. You can hardly recover any shadows.


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## Ozarker (Jul 19, 2020)

Andy Westwood said:


> I will be interesting to see if Sony go the same way as Canon in only giving selected retailers and Canon explorers of light, pre-production cameras, leaving all the independent camera reviewers out in the cold.
> 
> I’m not a fan of this, I’d rather Tony & Chelsea, Jared Polin, Chris and Jordan from DP Review got their hands on these new models on launch and put them through there paces, but for whatever reason Canon aren’t letting it happen this time.


Jared Polin has already put up an unboxing video of the R5 and R6. Working on reviews right now. He's got the new inexpensive tele lenses too.


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## Andy Westwood (Jul 19, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Jared Polin has already put up an unboxing video of the R5 and R6. Working on reviews right now. He's got the new inexpensive tele lenses too.



Yes, I noticed that these reviewers appear to be getting their hands on new R5's and 6's now. It could be Canon has something to do with this, although I’m sure they wouldn’t appreciate him placing a fire extinguisher next to the R5 during the unboxing, but I did find it amusing.

I can wait for his reviews to start rolling, I have a good feeling both Camera’s will get generally positive reviews


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## SecureGSM (Jul 19, 2020)

Alam said:


> According SAR they will have passive heatsink
> They claim vents will prevent water from i gressing
> 
> Idk, probably they are using forcefield


membrane..


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## chrisgibbs (Jul 19, 2020)

Andy Westwood said:


> Yes, I noticed that these reviewers appear to be getting their hands on new R5's and 6's now. It could be Canon has something to do with this, although I’m sure they wouldn’t appreciate him placing a fire extinguisher next to the R5 during the unboxing, but I did find it amusing.
> 
> I can wait for his reviews to start rolling, I have a good feeling both Camera’s will get generally positive reviews



My ears pricked-up when Jared took the R5 out of it wrapper and said, "well, I can hear the IBIS..........."

As a still photographer, one of my wishes was the IBIS mechanism "parked and locked" when the camera's power is OFF, just as the Nikon Z's do.


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## chrisgibbs (Jul 19, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> If the rumour about 16bit raw is true, it'll be very good in low light.



I used to shoot the original A7R (36MP) and A7S (12MP) side by side for stills, the A7S was a massive improvement in low light, I could roll video on it too, and at ridiculous settings (500K ISO). Check this out, hand held with no IBIS, just lens OSS, lighting single candle lanterns:


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 19, 2020)

jedy said:


> If the R5 is meant to be a stills camera first then why did Canon heavily promote the video specs and why did they include 8K (that no one really needs) that has meant very significant recording restrictions due to overheating/cooling off time, especially with 4K?



*Marketing*
/ˈmɑːkɪtɪŋ/
noun

The action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 19, 2020)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Canon should really bring out a 12MP camera, as that could help against the bad low light performance of Canon sensors.


Nope.


> For years I used the 1D Mark II with only 8.2 megapixels and even that resolution is enough for a poster of 60x40 centimetres, which you typically look at from more than one metre distance
> 
> My current Canon camera has 18 megapixels and very bad dark noise even at ISO 100. You can hardly recover any shadows.


_You're_ doing something wrong, then - every Canon pro body since the 1D Mk II has more pixels _and _better DR/high ISO performance than that body.

One thing Canon sensors _don't _have is "bad low light performance".


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## chrisgibbs (Jul 20, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Nope.
> 
> _You're_ doing something wrong, then - every Canon pro body since the 1D Mk II has more pixels _and _better DR/high ISO performance than that body.
> 
> One thing Canon sensors _don't _have is "bad low light performance".



I can go through a couple hundred thousand lowlight >6400 ISO images, looking at the lowlight performance, they're all over the map. I couldn't say which was from a Canon or Sony sensor. However, under normal conditions, I can "pull" the Sony sensor more, Sony sensored cameras are somewhat more "elastic/flexible" in post. I think the color temperature of the shooting environment has more to do with "noise" rather than any modern sensor/camera combo from the past couple of generations, all things being equal.


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## koenkooi (Jul 20, 2020)

chrisgibbs said:


> I can go through a couple hundred thousand lowlight >6400 ISO images, looking at the lowlight performance, they're all over the map. I couldn't say which was from a Canon or Sony sensor. However, under normal conditions, I can "pull" the Sony sensor more, Sony sensored cameras are somewhat more "elastic/flexible" in post. I think the color temperature of the shooting environment has more to do with "noise" rather than any modern sensor/camera combo from the past couple of generations, all things being equal.



I think what Keith is trying to say is that "Pulling shadows at ISO100" and "ISO6400 looks OK" are 2 different things. The ISO100 thing is more 'dynamic range' and the ISO6400 is more 'low light performance'. 
And since Canon sensors aren't ISO invariant over the whole ranges, pulling shadows up by +5EV at ISO100 will give a worse result than setting the camera at ISO6400.


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## koketso (Jul 20, 2020)

Viggo said:


> I read that Sony uses around 600mbps for 4K120 when Canon has almost 1900 mbps. I’m not into video, but doesn’t that mean quite a bit of difference in IQ?


It does, and its the reason I rent an EOS R (480Mbps 1080p60) for video instead of an A7 III (100Mbps 1080p60).


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## Ozarker (Jul 23, 2020)

I know why Canon (R6) and Sony (a7s III) have made these cameras... for video in low light. I understand it. I just seems strange to read about them (the cameras) after years and years of people hollering for more megapixels all the time.  I almost expect to find a thread where somebody complains that the R5 isn't 8 megapixels.


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## Bert63 (Jul 27, 2020)

TomR said:


> SAR is also reporting 240fps in 1080, the R5 can only do 60 fps




What did they have to say over there about the 12MP micro-sensor? Anything?

2012 called, they want their sensor size back.


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## Bert63 (Jul 27, 2020)

Andy Westwood said:


> Tony & Chelsea




Didn't you mean 'Sony' and Chelsea?

Have fun with that.


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## Bert63 (Jul 27, 2020)

DBounce said:


> I predict many disappointed Sony users soon.



No, because when it's a Sony it isn't a limitation, it's a feature.


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## TomR (Jul 27, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> What did they have to say over there about the 12MP micro-sensor? Anything?
> 
> 2012 called, they want their sensor size back.



they said its perfect for video, nice big pixels, no overheats, best mirrorless camera in the world for rolling shutter and low light


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## Bert63 (Jul 27, 2020)

Alam said:


> Yeah, but will you hang heatsink around your neck to cool down 12 megapixel camera?




I'll never hand a heatsink around my neck for any camera because if I was going to shoot serious video I'd buy a serious video camera, not a stills camera that can also do exceptional video.


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## Bert63 (Jul 27, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> What about their lens selection?



I ask this question often when discussing Canon as my choice of Camera. The response usually starts with "well" or "but" and then dwindles into mumbling as the person slowly backs away from the discussion.

In my mind, and I'm open to correction, Canon has the best selection of lenses of any manufacturer today. Who else is even close?


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## Bert63 (Jul 27, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> waving a Canon pro body and 500mm f/4 around handheld




This visual made me chuckle..


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## Bert63 (Jul 27, 2020)

jedy said:


> If the R5 is meant to be a stills camera first then why did Canon heavily promote the video specs and why did they include 8K (that no one really needs) that has meant very significant recording restrictions due to overheating/cooling off time, especially with 4K?




Because a person who primarily shoots stills (the camera's primary intent) will be able to enjoy the video features without any limitations whatsoever.


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## Bert63 (Jul 27, 2020)

TomR said:


> they said its perfect for video, nice big pixels, no overheats, best mirrorless camera in the world for rolling shutter and low light




That's about all they could say. $4,000? I guess it's worth that to its target buyer, but you wouldn't know that reading the SAR comments.


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