# Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!



## Freelancer (Mar 21, 2013)

no other manufacturer is bold enough to bring such a stunt!!! hats off!!

the comments all over the internet speak volumes.

this canon camera, again, shows us who brings innovations to the biz... SONY and NIKON. 8)


Canon 550d - 18mp - DXO Mark sensor score: 66
Canon 600d - 18mp - DXO Mark sensor score: 65
Canon 650d - 18mp - DXO Mark sensor score: 62
Canon 700d - 18mp - DXO Mark sensor score: 5?


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## caruser (Mar 21, 2013)

To be fair, the previous releases did at least improve something:

500D to 550D was 15MP to 18MP

550D to 600D was articulating screen and a few other video features

600D to 650D was improved AF with 9 cross-type points

650D to 700D is nothing really new?!?


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## skitron (Mar 21, 2013)

Still no AFMA...something that doesn't cost them a dime at this point. In fact it probably costs them extra to disable it from the common firmware code base.


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## Random Orbits (Mar 21, 2013)

caruser said:


> To be fair, the previous releases did at least improve something:
> 
> 500D to 550D was 15MP to 18MP
> 
> ...



I think the 700D is a dead end. The successor to the 650D is the 100D. Canon used the year to reduce the size and to reset the Rebel line. The Rebel won't lead the xxD and xD line in specs. The Rebel line inherits most of the xxD specs and performance over 2-4 iterations/years. The 650 closed most of the gap that existed between the Rebels and the 60D. The 100D's size reduction was done to compete against the micro 4/3rds.


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## dstppy (Mar 21, 2013)

you could buy a 7D . . .

I've heard those things take decent photos occasionally . . .


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## missitnoonan (Mar 21, 2013)

And here I am having just replaced by T1i with. 60D because I found the T1i too small for comfort with anything but the kit lens (well, that was one reason). Kidding aside, my wife who has much smaller hands than I do and no desire to take the camera out of P mode would love the SL1.


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## emag (Mar 21, 2013)

Yer not the market these cameras are aimed at. They will sell, particularly the small one. Too bad about AFMA, but the target market won't miss it.

To all the folks thoroughly disgusted with Canon......I'll give you 10 cents on the dollar for your crappy, non-innovative, always-behind-the-power-curve Canon L glass .


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## rumorzmonger (Mar 21, 2013)

dstppy said:


> you could buy a 7D . . .
> 
> I've heard those things take decent photos occasionally . . .



I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Judging by the comments above, most of the people posting on this thread don't take photos... I would be surprised if any of them even own a camera.


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## jdramirez (Mar 21, 2013)

emag said:


> Yer not the market these cameras are aimed at. They will sell, particularly the small one. Too bad about AFMA, but the target market won't miss it.
> 
> To all the folks thoroughly disgusted with Canon......I'll give you 10 cents on the dollar for your crappy, non-innovative, always-behind-the-power-curve Canon L glass .


 screw that, I'll give twenty cents on the dollar.


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## jdramirez (Mar 21, 2013)

rumorzmonger said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > you could buy a 7D . . .
> ...



in fairness to the complaints, I have a 60d and I have been underwhelmed by the t5i and the 6d. The 5d mkii it's the only real upgrade path I have and while I have the cash, 2600+ is a hard pill to swallow.


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## skycolt (Mar 21, 2013)

I remember when I first looking for a dslr, I look for how old the model is, is it has big enough megapixel count. In this sense, canon is doing the right thing to push out a new camera with good looking specs. Marketing strategy. This line is not for frequent shooter.


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## Ricku (Mar 21, 2013)

skitron said:


> Still no AFMA...something that doesn't cost them a dime at this point. In fact it probably costs them extra to disable it from the common firmware code base.


I can't understand why they still won't allow AFMA in rebels, especially since 99% of all wide aperture lenses needs to be adjusted.

Its just stupid.


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## Sith Zombie (Mar 21, 2013)

skitron said:


> Still no AFMA...something that doesn't cost them a dime at this point. In fact it probably costs them extra to disable it from the common firmware code base.


lol funny, yet probably correct


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## transpo1 (Mar 21, 2013)

Anyone have any idea how the SL1will stack up against the 5Dii / iii in low light? I'm a 5Dii owner and want to know if I can get decent high ISO out of it as a backup camera...


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## CHR20000 (Mar 21, 2013)

rumorzmonger said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > you could buy a 7D . . .
> ...



signed!

I cant hear this any more, alle these people are whining all the time... "ohh again this sensor, blahhh"
If you dont dont want it, dont buy it.. 

If i could believe in the sample images, the "new" 18mp Sensor is doing it well... waiting for a dxomark.

ps. sorry for my bad english


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## thedman (Mar 21, 2013)

Do people think the new _low-end budget model_ was supposed to break new DSLR ground with revolutionary new features never seen on a camera before?


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## CHR20000 (Mar 21, 2013)

thedman said:


> Do people think the new _low-end budget model_ was supposed to break new DSLR ground with revolutionary new features never seen on a camera before?



Yes they do. I'm pretty happy for now with my T2i. Waiting for the 70d, even with the 18mp sensor...


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## wrlphoto (Mar 21, 2013)

thedman said:


> Do people think the new _low-end budget model_ was supposed to break new DSLR ground with revolutionary new features never seen on a camera before?



No. At least for me Im disappointed that they released two new rebels but not a 70D or 7D2. the 60D is nearly 3 years and the 7D is 4 years. They are overdue for an upgrade, not the rebels - especially when the rebel wasnt really upgraded at all except for adding a new small model.


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## bseitz234 (Mar 21, 2013)

transpo1 said:


> Anyone have any idea how the SL1will stack up against the 5Dii / iii in low light? I'm a 5Dii owner and want to know if I can get decent high ISO out of it as a backup camera...



I highly doubt it'll be any better than any other APS-C... if you're used to FF performance, you'll likely be disappointed. That said, I've never owned FF, and I find the 7d to be perfectly serviceable... you just have to open your lens all the way up, shoot as slow a shutter speed as possible, or give up and bounce a flash. So to answer the question, it probably wouldn't hold a candle to the 5dII, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't function as a backup in a pinch...


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## Zlatko (Mar 21, 2013)

We see the same comments every time a new camera is released ...

Some people are quick to criticize any camera that doesn't meet their specific needs. They see their personal needs for a camera as the only true path for a camera manufacturer, and don't grasp that cameras take different forms to meet the diverse needs of photographers in the world. And some feel that features can be added with no added cost or labor, and are quick to criticize a manufacturer for leaving anything out.


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## awinphoto (Mar 21, 2013)

ummm... you expected significant advances in the rebel lineup? What are you smoking?


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## iMagic (Mar 21, 2013)

I was thinking of maybe a baby DSLR for convenience. BUT, no AFMA no sale. Canon, you just lost a potential sale because you don't realize that the baby DSLR could be for newbies and advanced users who want portability.


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## thedman (Mar 21, 2013)

iMagic said:


> Canon, you just lost a potential sale because you don't realize that the baby DSLR could be for newbies and advanced users who want portability.



What, is it not portable?


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## Don Haines (Mar 21, 2013)

My reactions are mixed:

T5i - WTF!

SL1 - will probably sell well, but not the camera for me

Power shot 280 - looks like a nice camera.... I have been waiting to replace my p/s and this looks like it will do.


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## dunkers (Mar 21, 2013)

Straight from the Canon Japan website:

Shot at ISO 1600
http://canon-premium.webcdn.stream.ne.jp/www09/canon-premium/eosd/samples/eos100d/downloads/06.jpg


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## interpilot (Mar 21, 2013)

dunkers said:


> Straight from the Canon Japan website:
> 
> Shot at ISO 1600
> http://canon-premium.webcdn.stream.ne.jp/www09/canon-premium/eosd/samples/eos100d/downloads/06.jpg



Well, that pretty much confirms it to me. Looks pretty much like my 550d; I can already see the hallmark red/green blotches of pattern noise without even attempting to lift the shadows.

Let's hope they'll do better on the 70d. I don't see why they couldn't. From what I've seen, this problem is much better controlled on the 5d3/6d?


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## RGF (Mar 21, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> My reactions are mixed:
> 
> T5i - WTF!
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that the Canon is targeting low end amateurs (spelling?) with the T5i and needs to introduce new cameras, if only to keep people interested and to appear to be improving their line up (to compete with Nikon, ...). Many camera buyers are not knowledge and they either will go to the store for advice and ask for the latest model (or the salesman will say this model is only 3 month old - implication that newer is better) or check out sites like dpreview.com and look at dates and stars. newer is always better, all things being equal.

Unfortunately those of us (very numerous on this site but not in the gen pop) buy high end equipment but make a small fraction of sales for Canon, Nikon, ...


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## Artifex (Mar 21, 2013)

Always funny to see people complaining that the new low-end camera aren't focused on professionals users needs. The fact is that both these camera's target audience are amateurs who just what to make a few good looking picture easily. The great majority of them have no idea what are AFMA, DR or other. The thing they will see, though, is that they can get just as good picture from this camera that the last model but it is of smaller size, so it is more portable and more practical for them. 
Although some might fell "cheated" by Canon, just remember that it is a corporation; its only goal is to make profits, just like any other corporation. They are making the products they think will sale best, and according to the success of those low-end camera, it seems they are doing a good job in it.


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## dickgrafixstop (Mar 21, 2013)

OK, now I'm baffled. This now gives me four alternatives - T3i, T4i, T5i and Twhatever - with very little difference - specs, price, capability - between them. Canon must have a plan, but right now it looks
to me like different internal development groups were set loose and everything was released. The new "baby" Rebel doesn't look small enough to draw m4/3 users, the new standard Rebel doesn't have enough "new" features to draw upgrade users. To quote the king of Siam, "tis a puzzlement!"
The new lens looks promising though, particularly for video users.


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## Drum (Mar 21, 2013)

The biggest laugh in all of this is I just checked my local canon website and the line up has removed the 650d but kept the 600d..... obviously this is just a ploy to keep the prices inflated with the "new" model.


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## kennykodak (Mar 21, 2013)

anticipating a Canon announcement is like an adult sitting up on Christmas eve watching the fireplace for santa.
empty stocking?


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## dickgrafixstop (Mar 21, 2013)

Interesting Graphic


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## Artifex (Mar 21, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> Artifex said:
> 
> 
> > *Always funny to see people complaining that the new low-end camera aren't focused on professionals users needs.* The fact is that both these camera's target audience are amateurs who just what to make a few good looking picture easily. The great majority of them have no idea what are AFMA, DR or other. The thing they will see, though, is that they can get just as good picture from this camera that the last model but it is of smaller size, so it is more portable and more practical for them.
> ...



What is funny is that people seems surprise. As stated before, the reason Canon does camera is to make profits. The low-ends body always get yearly release because this is how the market work. This is a bit like complaining that the Toyota Yaris 2013 is pretty much identical to the Toyota Yaris 2012; cars get yearly release, even though significant changes are only made every now and then. The same marketing logic is apply to consumers camera. The fact is it take lots of years of research to significally improve technology. Furthermore, I don't think lots of people upgrades from a XXXd camera to another one, and if so, I can only guess it can take quite a few years. Those camera aren't made for people who own a 600d or 650d, they are made for people who owns P&S and what something better. People who already own a XXXd are more likely to keep it for quite a few years if it fits there needs, or upgrade to XXd or Xd if not.


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## emag (Mar 21, 2013)

Artifex said:


> ....This is a bit like complaining that the Toyota Yaris 2013 is pretty much identical to the Toyota Yaris 2012; cars get yearly release, even though significant changes are only made every now and then.


And for a lot of folks, that Yaris is just fine, does what they need. There are appropriately priced high-end models available for those that want them. The car-camera analogy is exactly what I've been thinking.


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## awinphoto (Mar 21, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> Artifex said:
> 
> 
> > *Always funny to see people complaining that the new low-end camera aren't focused on professionals users needs.* The fact is that both these camera's target audience are amateurs who just what to make a few good looking picture easily. The great majority of them have no idea what are AFMA, DR or other. The thing they will see, though, is that they can get just as good picture from this camera that the last model but it is of smaller size, so it is more portable and more practical for them.
> ...



Car manufacturers do it all the time from model year to model year, especially their bottom line series of cars.... It's a beginners camera... dont get your panties in a twist...


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## Random Orbits (Mar 21, 2013)

dickgrafixstop said:


> Interesting Graphic



It is interesting -- thanks for posting. Add an EVF and some dials to the EOS-M and the length and width are similar. The depth is bit larger to accomodate the mirror box, but then you also get a useable grip and phase detect AF. Definitely wouldn't mind having one as a backup camera -- wouldn't take up much space in the camera bag.


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## bvukich (Mar 21, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > Artifex said:
> ...



X1000

It's a just a Rebel, they come out like clockwork, and the changes have always been minor from year to year.


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## TheBadger (Mar 21, 2013)

Midrange is dead. It's either now toyish rebels or full frame DSLRs.


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## alexanderferdinand (Mar 21, 2013)

Using Canon since 1983, being not a fanboy I yawned to read about the sensor: APS-C, 18MP.
The new M, xxD, xxxD.....
Yes, it is possible to make good pictures, but an innovative company sometimes brings innovations.

Sometimes.....


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## caMARYnon (Mar 21, 2013)

Random Orbits said:


> dickgrafixstop said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting Graphic
> ...


+1


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 21, 2013)

rumorzmonger said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > you could buy a 7D . . .
> ...



Judging by your comment above.... I would be surprised if you didn't work for Canon marketing. ;D


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## MrFotoFool (Mar 21, 2013)

Does anyone remember the film days, when a new camera model was introduced every five years or more? Now anything over a year and people are freaking out. I started on the fantastic manual Pentax K1000 which had about a 20 year production run (and I am pretty sure is the best selling camera model of all time).

OK, the t5i does seem unnecessary - why not stick with t4i? But the SL1 I think is great and I am glad they offer it body only. Not for use with large lenses, but with a 20mm Voigtlander pancake for the ultimate quality point and shoot. If I can save up, I may go this route.

Funny how people think 18MP is not enough in an entry level crop sensor camera, yet I see very few complaints about the flagship full frame pro camera 1DX being only 18MP.  The rebel line is entry level - do you really think its users are making 40x60 inch enlargements? (I work at a pro lab and I am virtually certain the SL1 and t5i will make very nice enlargements up to 24x36 inches - how many people need more?).

As for AFMA, I use a 5D2, I have large aperture lenses, and I have never had a need for AFMA. Plus, no one is using large aperture lenses on these cameras and it would just be another confusing menu item. I teach beginning photo classes at my lab and trust me, there are way too many menu options already - the average person does not want and will never use all those settings.


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## mrsfotografie (Mar 21, 2013)

MrFotoFool said:


> As for AFMA, I use a 5D2, I have large aperture lenses, and I have never had a need for AFMA. Plus, no one is using large aperture lenses on these cameras and it would just be another confusing menu item. ... trust me, there are way too many menu options already - the average person does not want and will never use all those settings.



+1


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## drjlo (Mar 21, 2013)

MrFotoFool said:


> But the SL1 I think is great and I am glad they offer it body only. Not for use with large lenses, but with a 20mm Voigtlander pancake for the ultimate quality point and shoot. If I can save up, I may go this route.



Well, the $650 body-only price will need to calm down to more reasonable street price before I consider SL1, but stick the Canon 40 mm f/2.8 lens most of us have anyway, and it should be nicely portable and sharp.

Still, if Canon doesn't bring some REAL improvements for next generation of bodies, more customers for Sonikon


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## RLPhoto (Mar 21, 2013)

Canon failed at a mirrorless camera so they said, "Lets just make the SLR really small. So small the advantage is lost to not having a mirror" Voila! The SL1. Personally, If it was a FF camera that size, We'd all have our minds blown.


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## jdramirez (Mar 21, 2013)

Does anyone remember the film days, when a new camera model was introduced every five years or more? Now anything over a year and people are freaking out. I started on the fantastic manual Pentax K1000 which had about a 20 year production run (and I am pretty sure is the best selling camera model of all time).

I never had a really nice camera until mane my 3mp fuji finepix. And that was a world of difference. 

OK, the t5i does seem unnecessary - why not stick with t4i? But the SL1 I think is great and I am glad they offer it body only. Not for use with large lenses, but with a 20mm Voigtlander pancake for the ultimate quality point and shoot. If I can save up, I may go this route.
the t5i is nothing but a marketing name, but I think the other is still to big. there is a reason slrs are big and that is ergonomics and inertia.

Funny how people think 18MP is not enough in an entry level crop sensor camera, yet I see very few complaints about the flagship full frame pro camera 1DX being only 18MP. The rebel line is entry level - do you really think its users are making 40x60 inch enlargements? (I work at a pro lab and I am virtually certain the SL1 and t5i will make very nice enlargements up to 24x36 inches - how many people need more?).

I'm not concerned about megapixels, but I do crop into my images often. if it is a moving target, it is easier to compose in post. that's where I find megapixels come in handy.

As for AFMA, I use a 5D2, I have large aperture lenses, and I have never had a need for AFMA. Plus, no one is using large aperture lenses on these cameras and it would just be another confusing menu item. I teach beginning photo classes at my lab and trust me, there are way too many menu options already - the average person does not want and will never use all those settings.
[/quote]

the best value lens for beginners is the 50mm f1.8. One hundred bucks and you get great images and depth of field. afma would havebeenimportant to me then ( when I started) as it is to me today.


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## ishdakuteb (Mar 21, 2013)

interpilot said:


> dunkers said:
> 
> 
> > Straight from the Canon Japan website:
> ...



this image was not taken with t5i aka kiss x7i, it was taken with sl1 aka x7. i am not sure as if anyone interest in seeing images taken with t5i? but if you do, i have some (a portrait shot with 1600 iso is the highest iso image i have... pretty clean image). 


note: recently found out that they have updated their website with all 8 images from t5i, so i do not need to post them up. here is the link http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos700d/

another thing is that i am not sure why people are complaining about this one. canon did not say that they are majorly upgrading nor minor upgrading this to t4i, but just said that a new version. like someone in this threat has said that you will find a new model of car every year, but the different might be just lights...

canon, pleaseeee release your 7d mark ii....


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## mrsfotografie (Mar 21, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Canon failed at a mirrorless camera so they said, "Lets just make the SLR really small. So small the advantage is lost to not having a mirror" Voila! The SL1. Personally, If it was a FF camera that size, We'd all have our minds blown.



It would have to have a very special prism housing to make that work


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## awinphoto (Mar 21, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> rumorzmonger said:
> 
> 
> > dstppy said:
> ...



No... if he was working for canon, his response would be along the lines of "and know what you can do with your tax refund, go spend it on the new ground breaking canon T5i and the industry leading 18-135! A camera so good even jackie chan uses it!"


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## awinphoto (Mar 21, 2013)

mrsfotografie said:


> MrFotoFool said:
> 
> 
> > As for AFMA, I use a 5D2, I have large aperture lenses, and I have never had a need for AFMA. Plus, no one is using large aperture lenses on these cameras and it would just be another confusing menu item. ... trust me, there are way too many menu options already - the average person does not want and will never use all those settings.
> ...



If anyone if worries about AFMA, then they aren't the target audience for this camera... The people who are the target audience are those who say, of look cool, it has video!


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## RLPhoto (Mar 21, 2013)

mrsfotografie said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Canon failed at a mirrorless camera so they said, "Lets just make the SLR really small. So small the advantage is lost to not having a mirror" Voila! The SL1. Personally, If it was a FF camera that size, We'd all have our minds blown.
> ...



Rebel 2000 + FF sensor = The most awesome compact FF camera ever. Done. I'd buy that.


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## pierceography (Mar 21, 2013)

Good lord, this is why I need to stay away from the Canon forums for a few days after an announcement. If you guys took pictures half as well as you whined about Canon, you'd all be professionals (and ironically, would complain far less about rebel series SLRs).


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 21, 2013)

pierceography said:


> Good lord, this is why I need to stay away from the Canon forums for a few days after an announcement. If you guys took pictures half as well as you whined about Canon, you'd all be professionals (and ironically, would complain far less about rebel series SLRs).



instead we all take crap pictures like you and complain about no innovation at canon....




> If anyone if worries about AFMA, then they aren't the target audience for this camera... The people who are the target audience are those who say, of look cool, it has video!



there are plenty of people who can only afford a xxxD body.
they spend more for lenses and AFMA would be usefull for them.


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## pierceography (Mar 21, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> pierceography said:
> 
> 
> > Good lord, this is why I need to stay away from the Canon forums for a few days after an announcement. If you guys took pictures half as well as you whined about Canon, you'd all be professionals (and ironically, would complain far less about rebel series SLRs).
> ...



Taking pictures > complaining.


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 21, 2013)

pierceography said:


> Canon-F1 said:
> 
> 
> > pierceography said:
> ...



well your not taking pictures right now, you are arguing here... so what?

when you are so good at giving advices... why not following them yourself?


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## Marsu42 (Mar 21, 2013)

Ricku said:


> I can't understand why they still won't allow AFMA in rebels, especially since 99% of all wide aperture lenses needs to be adjusted.



99% is much to much - esp. Canon lenses on Canon cameras are most of the time absolutely usable w/o afma. But Canon's rationale is simple: They want to prevent photogs using expensive lenses on cheap cameras, which otherwise would be a good idea because glass keeps the value longer - so you are forced to upgrade to a €1000+ body which is guaranteed Canon's profit other than 3rd party lenses.


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## MrFotoFool (Mar 21, 2013)

Here is a nice short review of hands on with a pre-production SL1.

http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/03/21/first-impressions-canon-rebel-sl1/


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## awinphoto (Mar 21, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> > If anyone if worries about AFMA, then they aren't the target audience for this camera... The people who are the target audience are those who say, of look cool, it has video!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course I would love a lexus, but if I could only afford a Hyundai, I wouldn't expect to get high end lexus features in the Hyundai. If you can only afford this camera, save up like just about anyone has to do, or if your set on getting this level of camera, send in your camera/lenses to be calibrated together...


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 21, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> Canon-F1 said:
> 
> 
> > > If anyone if worries about AFMA, then they aren't the target audience for this camera... The people who are the target audience are those who say, of look cool, it has video!
> ...



well that´s one way to see it.

in my opinion AFMA is there so canon can get away with higher manufacturing tolerances.

it would only be FAIR when canon offers AFMA in all bodys so we can correct canon manufacturing errors ourself.

in the end everyone pays the same for a 85mm f1.2.. not?
a 600D user does not get a lens cheaper then a 1D X user.

the "cheap body customers don´t own expensive glass" argument is no argument and it´s wrong.
when you are clever, you buy the best glass and a cheaper body... not the other way around.


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## mrsfotografie (Mar 21, 2013)

MrFotoFool said:


> Here is a nice short review of hands on with a pre-production SL1.
> 
> http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/03/21/first-impressions-canon-rebel-sl1/



Interesting read, it looks like a little camera with a big heart 8)


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## skitron (Mar 21, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> Canon-F1 said:
> 
> 
> > > If anyone if worries about AFMA, then they aren't the target audience for this camera... The people who are the target audience are those who say, of look cool, it has video!
> ...



LOL...and Canon service will set AFMA in their service menus that can't be accessed by users...

The point is it costs them nothing to add it and it would be yet another sales bullet. Just think of all the buzz there would have been right here in this very thread if it was announced it DID have AFMA?

The point is, even a Hyundai has cup holders in it...


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## pierceography (Mar 21, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> pierceography said:
> 
> 
> > Canon-F1 said:
> ...



I'm at work, buddy. I like to catch a few discussion threads in here when possible, usually to glean whatever I can from the more experienced members.

Like quite a few members of this forum, I use it as a learning tool -- particularly when I don't have my camera with me, such as my paid profession. I take exception to those who prefer to clog the channels with their complaints about Canon gear.

I learned a long time ago that you shouldn't complain about the decisions you make. I made the decision to invest in Canon gear. Of course, I don't always agree with their product direction... but overall I am happy with my gear and feel it suits me. If I ever feel differently, there's a very simple solution.

But "your" right... I should follow my own advice. I'm definitely the one with too much time on my hands.


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 21, 2013)

pierceography said:


> I'm at work, buddy



yeah well maybe others are at work too? 8) 
never thought about that uh?

and you seem to be pretty happy to take part in a discussion you think is useless... that´s what i call paradox.



> But "your" right... I should follow my own advice. I'm definitely the one with too much time on my hands.



glad you agree...


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## awinphoto (Mar 21, 2013)

skitron said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Canon-F1 said:
> ...



Skiltron, the point is the average rebel user isn't an above average photographer... it's a person who goes to costco and see's a rebel as splurging... It's the realtor that would rather do their own photos rather than pay for a pro to do them for them and wonder why the photos dont look right... It's that soccer mom who wants to take the photos of little jimmy and dont give a rats butt about the horrid noise... Then they read in the manual that oh yeah, it has afma, and has NO clue how to do it, or dont even read the manual in the first place and dont even know it's there... then canon has to deal with the morons who buy the camera, reads about afma, and then calls them asking how to do it, and have their employees on the phone with the people for 10-15 minutes at a time trying to talk them through it, wasting their time and money... It's stupid... it's advanced... It's like getting a hyundai accent and complaining it has a stick shift saying it should have pedal shifters instead. It's more than enough camera for what that target market is aimed for.


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## sdsr (Mar 21, 2013)

iMagic said:


> I was thinking of maybe a baby DSLR for convenience. BUT, no AFMA no sale. Canon, you just lost a potential sale because you don't realize that the baby DSLR could be for newbies and advanced users who want portability.



Is a baby DSLR that convenient? Canon's best lenses tend to be rather large and heavy and feel (to me, anyway) a bit awkward on a Rebel and would presumably feel even worse on an even smaller one. If size and weight are an issue, mirrorless cameras (esp. Micro 4/3) make more sense to me; and with them, AFMA simply isn't an issue.


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 21, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> skitron said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



what are the sources for your claims?
you make this up out of the air i guess.

i know many photographer who only have a 550D or similiar entry level stuff. 
some work in asia as pro photographer for magazines.
they borrow lenses as they need them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/avikbangalee/

they just don´t have the money to buy a pro body!!
that does not mean they are all to stupid to know AFMA.


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## Zlatko (Mar 21, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> I teach beginning photo classes at my lab and trust me, there are way too many menu options already - the average person does not want and will never use all those settings.



Exactly! There is a place for complex menus and advanced features, and this tiny camera isn't the place. These cameras already have far too many settings for most people who buy them. These buyers want good pictures, not more features.

People who freak out and complain about such things seem to have little understanding or appreciation for the needs of others.

As for the supposed lack of innovation, did Sony or Nikon just introduce the world's smallest and lightest DSLR today? No, Canon did. Somehow that innovation is overlooked.


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 21, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> People who freak out and complain about such things seem to have little understanding or appreciation for the needs of others.



calling the kettle black.... :


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 21, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > skitron said:
> ...



I know some really good (and serious) photographers who used Rebels for a long time, a few still do.
especially students


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 21, 2013)

MrFotoFool said:


> Does anyone remember the film days, when a new camera model was introduced every five years or more? Now anything over a year and people are freaking out. I started on the fantastic manual Pentax K1000 which had about a 20 year production run (and I am pretty sure is the best selling camera model of all time).



Yes, but as see below did they come out with an EOS651 and EOS652 just to put a new dial on them? No and look below:



> OK, the t5i does seem unnecessary - why not stick with t4i?



Exactly this one is a total waste. Waste of time making all new info for it, tooling up new housings, etc. Just keep the t4i out there another year then (with firmware update to add AMFA). How on earth can it not have at least gotten the wifi/network stuff?




> As for AFMA, I use a 5D2, I have large aperture lenses, and I have never had a need for AFMA. Plus, no one is using large aperture lenses on these cameras and it would just be another confusing menu item. I teach beginning photo classes at my lab and trust me, there are way too many menu options already - the average person does not want and will never use all those settings.



Well, I have yet to find a body+lens combo that has worked best at AMFA 0.
I have found many cases where it made a radical difference.
I think the average person finds it more confusing when they aim at something and find the darn focus 3' in front what they aimed at in 2/3rd of their shots no?


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## Zlatko (Mar 21, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > People who freak out and complain about such things seem to have little understanding or appreciation for the needs of others.
> ...



This camera will meet some people's needs very well. They will absolutely love the size and weight, and the features that it does offer. It is brilliantly built for them. If you need AFMA or some other feature, buy a camera that has it. Plenty of cameras do. Not every camera needs to be designed to meet you personal needs.


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## emag (Mar 21, 2013)

MrFotoFool said:


> Here is a nice short review of hands on with a pre-production SL1.
> 
> http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/03/21/first-impressions-canon-rebel-sl1/


'twould be a good astrophotography camera if modified. I have eyepieces that weigh more. The shorty forty looks BIG on the SL1!


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## awinphoto (Mar 21, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> Canon-F1 said:
> 
> 
> > Zlatko said:
> ...



1000+ well stated


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 21, 2013)

AFMA is a product feature that Canon uses to convince buyers to move up to a more expensive model. If a ton of buyers sent their camera or lens in for warranty adjustment of the focus, they would add it to save themselves money. However, the kit lenses have a small aperture and larger depth of field, so focus errors are usually not a issue. Very few Rebel buyers buy expensive wide aperture lenses where any focus error really stands out.

Of course, there are some who do this, but few pay $800 for a camera and then buy $X,000 in lenses. 

Its really no different from buying a automobile or a refrigerator, manufacturers add low cost features to differentiate more expensive models which often do not cost more to make, or the selling price is a lot higher than the cost of the features.

Its the way commerce works, the "UPSELL"


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## papa-razzi (Mar 21, 2013)

Can anyone confirm if the T5i has the same new sensor that the SL1 has? The marketing materials clearly state the SL1 has a new sensor, but it is unclear if the T5i has the sensor from the T4i or the SL1.

The other thing that is inconsistent in the marketing materials is the difference between the AF systems in the T5i and SL1. The T5i has 9 cross-type AF points. I think the SL1 has only one cross-type AF point, but the bullet list in the announcement for the SL1 says 9 cross-type - which conflicts with the review posted here, and the body of the text in the SL1 announcement.


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## missitnoonan (Mar 21, 2013)

On the AFMA thing, why does everyone assume it can be simply implemented via firmware in the 60d or Rebel models? I assume it takes some processing power to implement on the fly and some storage to keep the values for each lens. How do we know these cameras posses it?

My guess is they do, but not every Digic 5 has to be created equal, it may just be a general architecture.

I fall into the category of people that can't be bothered with it anyway, bought a 60d fully knowing it wasn't available and fully knowing I'd never take advantage of it.


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## Zlatko (Mar 21, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > AFMA is a product feature that Canon uses to convince buyers to move up to a more expensive model. If a ton of buyers sent their camera or lens in for warranty adjustment of the focus, they would add it to save themselves money. However, the kit lenses have a small aperture and larger depth of field, so focus errors are usually not a issue. Very few Rebel buyers buy expensive wide aperture lenses where any focus error really stands out.
> ...



So it's somehow _wrong_ to convince buyers to spend more money for more features? Wrong to offer a diverse product line with products at different price levels? Then we photographers should follow the same rules: never offer clients a way to spend more to get more. Never offer any extra product for any extra money. Offer just one product at one price, one size fits all? Or, offer various products but all at the same price, no matter what it costs to make and service them? ??? In what galaxy does business work that way?


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## awinphoto (Mar 21, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Skiltron, the point is the average rebel user isn't an above average photographer... it's a person who goes to costco and see's a rebel as splurging... It's the realtor that would rather do their own photos rather than pay for a pro to do them for them and wonder why the photos dont look right... It's that soccer mom who wants to take the photos of little jimmy and dont give a rats butt about the horrid noise... Then they read in the manual that oh yeah, it has afma, and has NO clue how to do it, or dont even read the manual in the first place and dont even know it's there... then canon has to deal with the morons who buy the camera, reads about afma, and then calls them asking how to do it, and have their employees on the phone with the people for 10-15 minutes at a time trying to talk them through it, wasting their time and money... It's stupid... it's advanced... It's like getting a hyundai accent and complaining it has a stick shift saying it should have pedal shifters instead. It's more than enough camera for what that target market is aimed for.
> ...



Dude, what dont you get, AFMA is a pull through to get you to buy a better camera... done, simple, it is what it is... On my photography pricing, i have certain pull throughs to get people to pay a few more hundred dollars with me... IF canon wanted people to settle for a T5i rather than get a 70D or 7D or 5d3, canon would be broke. I hate to break it to you, but canon isn't going to offer professional features in a consumer product. It probably doesn't cost car manufactures anything more to install pedal shifters, but they still dont offer it on their ENTRY LINE CARS. Didn't know this was a big secret that i'm revealing... 

Also, if there are pro's making a living with a rebel, wonderful... kudo's, they are in the vast minority. Heck, my 80 year old grandpa was a pro back in his day, he owns a rebel. It does everything he needs, granted he came back from the film and darkroom days and had to do everything manually as there was no AF then. 

F1, yes, I have seen realtors do their own photos, i've known many real estate photographers go out of business because they are pinching pennies and doing it themselves... Quality has plumetted, but it is what it is. And yes, if you look objectively at the markets, 5d (wedding and general portrait semi pro-pro), 7d (sports semi pro-pro), XXD advanced amateur to semi pro, xxxd, amateur... xxxxd (paperweight)... okay the last one i'm joking, but really... it's not a secret... I've been a working pro long enough to know what certain gear is designed for. 

In the end, Jeff Gordon could probably race the hell out of a dodge neon, but the dodge neon was not designed for his demographic in mind. end of story.


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## Zlatko (Mar 21, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> as mentioned before by someone, AFMA is a feature to fix canons own shortcomings in the manufacturing process. it should be a standard feature!



Why stop at just AFMA? _Everything_ should be a standard feature on the $649 13.05 ounce camera. _Everything_ has the potential to be useful to some photographer somewhere. And added complexity never stopped anyone from buying a camera. Yep, we know Canon's business better than they do.


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## sagittariansrock (Mar 21, 2013)

skitron said:


> Still no AFMA...something that doesn't cost them a dime at this point. In fact it probably costs them extra to disable it from the common firmware code base.



Think about it... Do you complain when Starbucks charges you 1.50 for the foamed milk when you choose a latte over an espresso? The milk doesn't cost more than 5 cents, right?
Canon is here to do business and adding AFMA is not about how much it costs additionally, but about how much "value" it adds. And they want you to pay a premium for that "value". Nothing really wrong with that. 
You can also wonder why non-L lenses don't come with free lens hoods. Maybe raise the price $ 20 (no one will even notice it for the higher-end non-Ls) and include the hood? But Canon wants that added "value" to bd exclusive to the Ls. 
It's all marketing, and unfortunately sound marketing. There's nothing wrong in it, however the consumer may feel. Upgrade if you want that added value!


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## AudioGlenn (Mar 21, 2013)

well I think the SL1 is "cute" and my wife might be the perfect customer for it. The EOS M wasn't what we were looking for. I thought she might like using my 60D after I got a mk3 but that was too big for her. pair it (SL1) up with the 40mm and she's got a kick ass little setup for her needs... no she's not a pro photographer. It would just be a toy.... honestly, she's fine just taking pictures with her new iPhone. 

So the gear announcement wasn't what some of you expected... so what! don't you guys already have great cameras? I too wanted to see a 70D upgrade but meh, I'm doin' just fine with the gear I have. I think the complainers need to go shoot more. 

As with my recording studio gear, I buy what I need when I need it. don't sweat the small stuff people.


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## simonxu11 (Mar 21, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> papa-razzi said:
> 
> 
> > Can anyone confirm if the T5i has the same new sensor that the SL1 has? The marketing materials clearly state the SL1 has a new sensor, but it is unclear if the T5i has the sensor from the T4i or the SL1.
> ...


+1
Canon's market team is offering 50 cents for each person who defend 700D, go collect them ;D ;D


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 21, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > as mentioned before by someone, AFMA is a feature to fix canons own shortcomings in the manufacturing process. it should be a standard feature!
> ...



Because AFMA is different. It is NOT a feature it is about making a camera not be broken and about making up for QC tolerances!!!!

Something that is a feature is AutoISO. That is something one can argue over and, in fact, I will. It still doesn't work even on 5D3!! Every other maker has it working for years on rebel-like stuff and Canon marketing, after a decade, is STILL slowly dribbling it out even to top level.


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 21, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> So it's somehow _wrong_ to convince buyers to spend more money for more features? Wrong to offer a diverse product line with products at different price levels? Then we photographers should follow the same rules: never offer clients a way to spend more to get more. Never offer any extra product for any extra money. Offer just one product at one price, one size fits all? Or, offer various products but all at the same price, no matter what it costs to make and service them? ??? In what galaxy does business work that way?



all AFMA does is make a camera work as you should expect.
so it´s ok to pay for that? mhm, in what galaxy do you live? 

it´s actually sad seeing consumer defend such company strategys.
but it shows why companys can get way with so much crap today. :-[
most consumers are sheeps.


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## ishdakuteb (Mar 21, 2013)

simonxu11 said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > papa-razzi said:
> ...



i personally do not care about scores analyzed by someone else. i do care about my eyes and my techniques that i have developed on my own and yes, i am still using my canon 30d every day... for me, internet sources are there for me to read, trust it or not it depends. use your brains instead of using provided information...

for example: i will not learn photography techniques from Sal unless it is offered for free but will learn marketing techniques from Sal even though it is not offered for free.


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## V8Beast (Mar 21, 2013)

The more money Canon milks from its entry-level product line, the more money it has to invest in its pro and semi-pro gear. Sounds good to me ;D


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 22, 2013)

V8Beast said:


> The more money Canon milks from its entry-level product line, the more money it has to invest in its pro and semi-pro gear. Sounds good to me ;D



yeah well it only has to show results some day....


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## Hobby Shooter (Mar 22, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> V8Beast said:
> 
> 
> > The more money Canon milks from its entry-level product line, the more money it has to invest in its pro and semi-pro gear. Sounds good to me ;D
> ...



I would say the 1Dx and the 5D3 are adequate results.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 22, 2013)

Hobby Shooter said:


> Canon-F1 said:
> 
> 
> > V8Beast said:
> ...



Aside from dominating the DSLR market, yes.


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## ishdakuteb (Mar 22, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> Hobby Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Canon-F1 said:
> ...



humans are never satisfied with what they have  like we wants more holidays per year, so retailers or manufactures... but really different thoughts between the two since to retailers and manufactures more holidays mean more bussiness... LOL


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## Hobby Shooter (Mar 22, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> Hobby Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Canon-F1 said:
> ...


But that's only because we don't know what we're buying.


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > So it's somehow _wrong_ to convince buyers to spend more money for more features? Wrong to offer a diverse product line with products at different price levels? Then we photographers should follow the same rules: never offer clients a way to spend more to get more. Never offer any extra product for any extra money. Offer just one product at one price, one size fits all? Or, offer various products but all at the same price, no matter what it costs to make and service them? ??? In what galaxy does business work that way?
> ...



It's pretty clear that AFMA should be in _your_ camera. It isn't clear that it should be in _this_ camera. Photographers don't all have the same needs as you.

This cameras will focus correctly from the start for the vast majority of users, even without AFMA. The review on
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/03/21/first-impressions-canon-rebel-sl1/
indicates that the autofocus is "really good". 

AFMA recognizes that autofocus isn't perfect for more demanding users in certain situations. It is a brilliant solution to customizing each individual camera to each individual lens. But Canon knows well that AFMA is also laborious to implement. The typical buyer of this camera will not know what it is and will not want to do it. There is such a thing as "feature bloat" where there are just too many unfamiliar settings on the menus, making a camera less attractive to many buyers.


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## fonts (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > Zlatko said:
> ...



+1000. Freelancer, I get it, trust me I do, but you are forgetting we live in an open market world. Canon can't make ONE camera with EVERYTHING in it. Come to think of it, NO COMPANY CAN, in any industry. Seriously calm down, there is already a camera out there for your needs, Nikon has it. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but that's the whole point of different manufactures, they reach out to different people. Just chillax for once.


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## fonts (Mar 22, 2013)

Hobby Shooter said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Hobby Shooter said:
> ...



Don't know what we're buying? PLEASE say that the D4 is better than the 1DX, PLEASE!


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > Freelancer said:
> ...



If AFMA is about making a camera not be "broken", then photographers have been using "broken" cameras for about 25 years, since autofocus became popular. And yet they somehow managed to make pictures. 

Even $5,000 - $10,000 Leica lenses sometimes need to be adjusted to specific bodies, despite their very high QC tolerances and low volume production. I doubt most of us could actually afford to pay for the ultra-perfect lens production and AF systems that would meet your QC standards. This quest for perfection at f/1.4 in a $649 camera is far beyond what the typical user of this camera expects. Think f/5.6 at a soccer game, or f/3.5 at a birthday party.

Auto ISO works _wonderfully_ on the 5D3 -- I use it quite a lot. I really don't know why you would buy Canon if this is such a problem and "every other maker has it working".


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > Zlatko said:
> ...



No that shows that that one particular SL1 with that one lens happens to focus really well.
For most pairings it is constantly sending to Canon for adjustments.


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## agierke (Mar 22, 2013)

> This quest for perfection at f/1.4 in a $649 camera is far beyond what the typical user of this camera expects. Think f/5.6 at a soccer game, or f/3.5 at a birthday party.



+1

this conversation is hilarious. do you all really care that much about the Rebel line?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Zlatko said:
> ...



1. before digital many people also looked at 3x5" prints which masked lots of errors
2. people have been complaining about poor calibration though and it means sending in stuff for adjustment, sometimes more than once, sometimes being without it for weeks, sometimes it means not having a focusing pair for a nat geo expedition because Canon is too busy fixing 1D3 bodies to care about anything else in the meantime.
3. It costs 0 dollars to put it in the body why the heck are you defending it unless Canon is paying you??




> Auto ISO works _wonderfully_ on the 5D3 -- I use it quite a lot. I really don't know why you would buy Canon if this is such a problem and "every other maker has it working".



Unless you need EC and then you are stuck. Note that you can't use Av mode with shutter limit because they locked out all of the shutter speeds that would work for action which is exactly what you need autoiso for!
Seriously with like 2 bytes of changes code (or just a few more if they need to table each allowed shutter speed) it would work but marketing had them cripple it on purpose. Why? For what purpose?


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > So it's somehow _wrong_ to convince buyers to spend more money for more features? Wrong to offer a diverse product line with products at different price levels? Then we photographers should follow the same rules: never offer clients a way to spend more to get more. Never offer any extra product for any extra money. Offer just one product at one price, one size fits all? Or, offer various products but all at the same price, no matter what it costs to make and service them? ??? In what galaxy does business work that way?
> ...



AFMA makes the 5D3 and 1DX work as you should expect. It's a great feature. But the Rebel line of cameras, including this new SL1, work as you should expect without AFMA. Different users, different expectations.

I'm puzzled by some posters' extreme negativity about a manufacturer's "strategy" to make a profit, or to offer a diverse product line that meets different customers' needs and budgets. It is as if all of those factories and highly skilled employees should somehow spend all of their time serving photographers without any profit motive. Hmmmm. ???


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > Freelancer said:
> ...



So you know a lot of Rebel users constantly sending their gear to Canon for adjustments? I don't. But maybe I'll ask the other parents at the soccer game or at the school play.


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



The correctness of your analysis depends on at least these two things:
1. You know that Canon's exact costs for implementing AFMA in a completely new camera body are $-0-.
2. You have read the minds of unknown people in "marketing" and you know they were motivated to "cripple" the 5D3.
Really, why buy Canon if you think they are so badly motivated?


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

agierke said:


> > This quest for perfection at f/1.4 in a $649 camera is far beyond what the typical user of this camera expects. Think f/5.6 at a soccer game, or f/3.5 at a birthday party.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!


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## elflord (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> So you know a lot of Rebel users constantly sending their gear to Canon for adjustments? I don't. But maybe I'll ask the other parents at the soccer game or at the school play.



If Canon share this attitude towards users of their entry level SLRs, that would certainly explain their policy of removing "confusing" features that "parents at the soccer game" don't understand.


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## Hillsilly (Mar 22, 2013)

Assuming it doesn't cost anything to add AFMA, I can't see why it can't be added to an "advanced features" tab on the menu with adequate warnings. I find it a bit presumptious to say only the poorly educated would buy a rebel camera and that extra features aren't suited. Given the numbers of cameras sold, if only 5% were to skilled users, they would still number more than the total 1DX crowd. And there are plenty of soccer mums taking great photos.

Personally, I think the 100D will be a huge hit. It is a great concept and will do well amongst new camera owners. Experienced users that want something small and light and don't want to deal with the negatives of the mirrorless systems will also snap them up.


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

elflord said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > So you know a lot of Rebel users constantly sending their gear to Canon for adjustments? I don't. But maybe I'll ask the other parents at the soccer game or at the school play.
> ...



You completely misunderstood my point, which was that Rebel users are certainly not constantly sending their gear to Canon for autofocus micro-adjustments. You think I'm saying something bad about them when I'm not. I'm a parent at the soccer game too and I respect their situation. They want good photos, and getting good photos of soccer (or basketball or many other sports) is not easy. The Rebel is the camera they bought because they knew that a point & shoot wouldn't do the job as well. The Rebel does that job much better, whether it's a soccer game, a show at school, a birthday party, etc. The point is: it's very well-suited to those tasks, without being too big or too heavy (parents have enough stuff to carry) or being too expensive ... and without having AFMA!

You used the word "confusing" in quotes, but that's not the word I used. If you could appreciate the perspective of many parents, you would recognize that too many unfamiliar features on a camera menu is a minus, not a plus. And AFMA is definitely an unfamiliar feature to the vast majority of people who don't read photography gear forums. Advanced features sell cameras to advanced hobbyists and pros, not to many camera buyers looking for a very small DSLR. For many buyers, feature bloat is a distinct disadvantage of modern cameras. Have you noticed that even the typical point & shoot has menus cluttered with many settings that most people never use? This is not a selling point.

The thrust of the critics in this thread can be summarized as: _The new Rebel doesn't meet my personal needs! I need AFMA. The only reason Canon omitted the feature that I want is because they want to make a (presumed) higher profit on an AMFA-featured body. And as we all know, this devious strategy of making a profit is wrong._ ???


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## Hobby Shooter (Mar 22, 2013)

fonts said:


> Hobby Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...


Why would I?

I think I forgot the sarcasm mark on that comment.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> AFMA makes the 5D3 and 1DX work as you should expect. It's a great feature. But the Rebel line of cameras, including this new SL1, work as you should expect without AFMA. Different users, different expectations.



Wait so now you are saying that the 5D3/1DX have worse AF systems and lack the magic system in the Rebel line tht gets away without needing AFMA??



> I'm puzzled by some posters' extreme negativity about a manufacturer's "strategy" to make a profit, or to offer a diverse product line that meets different customers' needs and budgets. It is as if all of those factories and highly skilled employees should somehow spend all of their time serving photographers without any profit motive. Hmmmm. ???



I'm puzzled that there is not one single thing you won't defend. Canon could literally release a boxed rock for $999 and you'd defend the decision I'd bet.

It's nice to know that you will go so far as to even defend trying to make people go to a higher tier to get a camera that won't act broken.

Nobody is saying it needs the 5D3 AF or 10fps! Just: 1. give it MFA so it works to spec 2. give it SOMETHING the t4i didn't have, maybe WIFI stuff?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> The correctness of your analysis depends on at least these two things:
> 1. You know that Canon's exact costs for implementing AFMA in a completely new camera body are $-0-.
> 2. You have read the minds of unknown people in "marketing" and you know they were motivated to "cripple" the 5D3.
> Really, why buy Canon if you think they are so badly motivated?



It does depend upon the correctness of those two things and luckily for me (or any of the many others posting similar) they are both correct.

I mean care to share a single reason why they don't let you chose better than 1/250th for max setting for min shutter speed for autoiso? There is zero technical reason.

Why do you so want Rebel users to have to struggle with AF that keeps missing the mark BEYOND what the designed system tolerances? Just becuase you use better than a Rebel it doesn't matter for them? Maybe some of those moms and pops you meet on the sidelines are confused altering technique in bad ways to make up for bodies that are back or front focusing by 4'?

And for the record, someone managed to quote someone from Canon saying that they took MFA out of the 60D (it had been in the 50D) because it would then make the 70D look better LOL that's nice. Still believe in the pure motivation of Canon marketing these days?


----------



## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

Hillsilly said:


> Assuming it doesn't cost anything to add AFMA, I can't see why it can't be added to an "advanced features" tab on the menu with adequate warnings. I find it a bit presumptious to say only the poorly educated would buy a rebel camera and that extra features aren't suited. Given the numbers of cameras sold, if only 5% were to skilled users, they would still number more than the total 1DX crowd. And there are plenty of soccer mums taking great photos.
> 
> Personally, I think the 100D will be a huge hit. It is a great concept and will do well amongst new camera owners. Experienced users that want something small and light and don't want to deal with the negatives of the mirrorless systems will also snap them up.



1. Of course it can be added to an advanced features tab, with adequate warnings. But this all happens for free? No labor is spent on testing the AFMA on a new camera, designing and programming that new tab, drafting those "adequate warnings", or adding that page to the manual, etc. The buildings, the training, the benefits, taxes, insurance, etc., that go into supporting the skilled people that will spend their time on that -- all of this costs ... nothing? This all just happens ... for free ... because someone wills it?

2. Who said anything about "poorly educated". Sorry, that is nonsense and has nothing to do with this conversation.

3. Yes, there are plenty of soccer moms taking great photos. Could it be any clearer that they are doing so _without_ AFMA?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> 1. Of course it can be added to an advanced features tab, with adequate warnings. But this all happens for free? No labor is spent on testing the AFMA on a new camera, designing and programming that new tab, drafting those "adequate warnings", or adding that page to the manual, etc. The buildings, the training, the benefits, taxes, insurance, etc., that go into supporting the skilled people that will spend their time on that -- all of this costs ... nothing? This all just happens ... for free ... because someone wills it?



Give Rebel users a little credit. There are million other settings that could mess things up and yet they are trusted with them no?

Why do you think it needs new code for MFA just because it is a different body?


----------



## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > AFMA makes the 5D3 and 1DX work as you should expect. It's a great feature. But the Rebel line of cameras, including this new SL1, work as you should expect without AFMA. Different users, different expectations.
> ...



The answer to your first point: you missed where I said "Different users, different expectations." 

Your second point is just absurd. I'm defending the SL1 because I think it's fantastic for what is. Have you seen how small it is? Other than the EOS M (which lacked a viewfinder and decent autofocus) this is the _smallest EOS camera ever_. I love having this option for a much smaller DSLR that uses any lens in the EF line. 

Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera. Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so. These cameras do work to _their_ specs, just not to _your_ specs.


----------



## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Of course it can be added to an advanced features tab, with adequate warnings. But this all happens for free? No labor is spent on testing the AFMA on a new camera, designing and programming that new tab, drafting those "adequate warnings", or adding that page to the manual, etc. The buildings, the training, the benefits, taxes, insurance, etc., that go into supporting the skilled people that will spend their time on that -- all of this costs ... nothing? This all just happens ... for free ... because someone wills it?
> ...



You're missing the point about Rebel users. It has nothing to do with "mess things up" or being "trusted". _Nothing_.

New code or old code, it doesn't just get dropped into a new camera without any human effort. No testing even? The 5D2 and 5D3 both have AFMA, but they are not exactly the same. Obviously there was an added cost to developing it for the 5D3.

But none of us knows any facts about their costs. So your point really is, _why don't they just give away advanced features that cost them very little (or nothing) even if those additions potentially make a camera less attractive to its target market?_


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## Marsu42 (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> New code or old code, it doesn't just get dropped into a new camera without any human effort. No testing even? The 5D2 and 5D3 both have AFMA, but they are not exactly the same. Obviously there was an added cost to developing it for the 5D3.



The frustrating thing about missing afma (esp. from the 60d) that this really is a zero-cost feature - the fw base of the canon cameras is basically the same so I'd say it's 99% copy/paste to transfer single afma from the 50d/5d2 to any other Rebel. I wouldn't be surprised if it's already in their fw source, but just disabled.

Admittedly they added dual afma for 6d/5d3/1dx, but even that is extremely simple to implement: Save values according to lens id, then just add or subtract this value before focusing. There's really not much need for testing involved here.


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## Sith Zombie (Mar 22, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> I'm puzzled that there is not one single thing you won't defend. Canon could literally release a boxed rock for $999 and you'd defend the decision I'd bet.



Hey! don't bring the Eos rock in to this! I have one and it's the best rock ever made, good for hitting Nikon owners with.


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## elflord (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> You completely misunderstood my point, which was that Rebel users are certainly not constantly sending their gear to Canon for autofocus micro-adjustments. You think I'm saying something bad about them when I'm not. I'm a parent at the soccer game too and I respect their situation. They want good photos, and getting good photos of soccer (or basketball or many other sports) is not easy. The Rebel is the camera they bought because they knew that a point & shoot wouldn't do the job as well. The Rebel does that job much better, whether it's a soccer game, a show at school, a birthday party, etc.



The first thing a photographer-parent does (as a parent) is likely to be "take baby photos" which again they often do with an inexpensive fast prime lens. They might not be up to the task of sending lenses back to Canon but they might be up to the task of reading a manual and adjusting lenses. 



> You used the word "confusing" in quotes, but that's not the word I used. If you could appreciate the perspective of many parents, you would recognize that too many unfamiliar features on a camera menu is a minus, not a plus.



I don't buy this line of argument. Features that are commonly used can be made available with buttons and dials (without _any_ menu browsing so they aren't buried in a decision tree). The less often used a feature is, the further down the choice heirarchy it can go (without cluttering the top level). 

Rebel cameras already support a number of advanced features that these ignorant savages you speak of have little understanding of or use for, (one such example is a matrix interface for adjusting white balance -- oddly enough they don't have a simple color temperature). 



> The thrust of the critics in this thread can be summarized as: _The new Rebel doesn't meet my personal needs!
> _


_

Actually, my argument is that the Rebel is simply not a very good choice for hobbyists on a budget because the manufacturer treats buyers of its low end products with contempt. Buyers at this price point are better served by other products (either used Canon from different product lines or other manufacturers)_


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> AFMA makes the 5D3 and 1DX work as you should expect. It's a great feature. But the Rebel line of cameras, including this new SL1, work as you should expect without AFMA.



ah, now your telling us the rebel line has smaller tolerances then the top cameras from canon.
your inside information into canon is stunning! ;D

of course there are no people on a budget who decided to buy a cheap body and good fast glas. :

now, i have a lot of fast glass and would love to have AFMA on my 550D too.
and i know some other people with a 50mm f1.2 and a rebel.




> Different users, different expectations



you are obviously wrong. just search the internet....


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## Malte_P (Mar 22, 2013)

im a student.

i bought a 550D, 70-200mm F4, 90mm tamron macro, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f1.8 and will buy a 135mm f2 soon.

all i can tell you is that i would love to have AFMA in my 550D.

i have send my 85mm f1.8 to canon for adjustment.
my 50mm f1.4 is not perfect either. 
but adjustment takes a week, a week without my camera.


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

elflord said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > You completely misunderstood my point, which was that Rebel users are certainly not constantly sending their gear to Canon for autofocus micro-adjustments. You think I'm saying something bad about them when I'm not. I'm a parent at the soccer game too and I respect their situation. They want good photos, and getting good photos of soccer (or basketball or many other sports) is not easy. The Rebel is the camera they bought because they knew that a point & shoot wouldn't do the job as well. The Rebel does that job much better, whether it's a soccer game, a show at school, a birthday party, etc.
> ...


_

Don't put words in my mouth. YOU are the one talking about "ignorant savages". If you're going to use words like that, we can't have a discussion. You seem to have never encountered a person who wished for a simpler, smaller camera. Many people who buy low end DSLRS cameras love pictures but are not into nit-picking over technical adjustments, doing AFMA or reading about it on gear forums. They buy zooms, not primes, because zooms are more useful to them. That's not saying anything bad about them, despite attempts here to spin that to the contrary. They are an important part of the market and a manufacturer is very smart to serve their needs. 

And your claim about treating buyers of low end products "with contempt" is imaginative, but not based on any fact. It presumes a fantastic mind-reading ability. You imagine this contempt for the buyer because your premise is that cheaper products should have the same advanced features as more expensive products, which is not a valid premise in the business world. That's a prescription for business failure. The SL1 looks to be a great product and a brilliant design in terms of size, weight, looks and functionality. It's a fantastic solution to the age-old problem of cameras being too big and bulky._


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## Ladislav (Mar 22, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Skiltron, the point is the average rebel user isn't an above average photographer... it's a person who goes to costco and see's a rebel as splurging... It's the realtor that would rather do their own photos rather than pay for a pro to do them for them and wonder why the photos dont look right... It's that soccer mom who wants to take the photos of little jimmy and dont give a rats butt about the horrid noise... Then they read in the manual that oh yeah, it has afma, and has NO clue how to do it, or dont even read the manual in the first place and dont even know it's there... then canon has to deal with the morons who buy the camera, reads about afma, and then calls them asking how to do it, and have their employees on the phone with the people for 10-15 minutes at a time trying to talk them through it, wasting their time and money... It's stupid... it's advanced... It's like getting a hyundai accent and complaining it has a stick shift saying it should have pedal shifters instead. It's more than enough camera for what that target market is aimed for.
> ...



While this statement is correct it is hopeless ... There are people who die because they cannot afford proper treatment. Some products or services are considered premium no matter what is their real cost and what should be their effect if offered in much affordable price. This is ugly but quite deep part of "modern culture" and economic reality. 

Seriously guys (all of you who calls for innovation or better products): The only real thing you can do is change your equipment for Nikon, Olympus, Sony or whatever else. That is the only hurt you can do to Canon and the only way you can let Canon know that you disagree with their strategy. Otherwise you can only wait till Canon decides to show something. Rant on Internet has no effect - it leads only to flamewars. Only if Canon's market share and income drops they will start looking for the reason. Until that they have you exactly when they want you, because they know that once they release something interesting you will all run and buy it. They already have your money, they just choosing when to collect them ... It is called vendor lock-in (caused by investments you already made to vendor's products).


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > AFMA makes the 5D3 and 1DX work as you should expect. It's a great feature. But the Rebel line of cameras, including this new SL1, work as you should expect without AFMA.
> ...



I never claimed the Rebel line has smaller tolerances. That misstatement has been repeated at least twice now. It misses the point about different users having different expectations, which is factual, whether we're talking about cameras or cars or many other things.

"Just search the internet" -- yes, that's where people complain that a manufacturer hasn't met their personal needs for a $649 camera. There are indeed people some who use fast aperture lenses on cheaper cameras. I've done it too. That doesn't mean the manufacturing world should revolve around them.


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## Albi86 (Mar 22, 2013)

It's fascinating how the only people defending Canon's latest releases all own either a 5D3 or a 1DX, and as such, are probably not going to buy a Rebel. If yes, only as back-back-back-back-up body.

Maybe your perspective would be a bit more accurate if that was the only Canon camera in your budget. Sure, one can switch to Nikon, but it has a cost to rebuild a lens kit, and money is the problem to begin with. Otherwise we would all buy a 5D3 and a D800E and lots of top glass and be happy ever after.

I bought a D600 and I'm building a set of lenses in F-mount. I didn't like it. Switching brand is always some sort of hassle and economic inconvenience. I could afford it and it worked very well for me, in the sense that I'm very satisfied with my purchase. But I understand that not everyone can afford to do so. This doesn't make them a bunch of childish whiners. As a matter of fact, I would hardly advise anyone to buy a 700D over a D5200.


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## papa-razzi (Mar 22, 2013)

This thread should be retitled - "A senseless religious argument regarding AFMA and if it should be included with every DSLR along with the shutter button - along with the general insulting of anyone who isn't "smart" enough to buy a professional grade camera".


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## skitron (Mar 22, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> skitron said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



So why does it even have modes other than full auto then? And why does it have 18 MP? After all, they don't know how to use anything other than full auto and they certainly don't need 18 MP in a crop body. And why NINE AF points? Everyone knows they are only going to use the center point or just leave it in "focus point roulette mode" and they'll never even understand what all those other points are supposed to do.

So, you are totally missing the point.

The point is 1) sales bullets count and 2) people who buy these things often, if not usually, find somebody they know who is "into photography" to ask before they buy. 

I guarantee most who are "into photography" would say to them "AFMA is good to have though you may never need it with your f/3.5-f/5.6 lens." "But if you ever upgrade to one of those expense $350 50mm f/1.4 lens, you'll probably want that feature." 

Just like you probably would tell them, "you may not use them, but 9 AF points instead of just 1 is good to have". 

Consumer goes "Hmff, I didn't really follow all of that, and I'm not sure I'd buy a seperate lens that costs that kind of money, but if so and so says I might need that AFMA thingy, I should buy this newest model just in case."

And of course the same holds true if they were reading all of the reviews and blogs stating the same thing, had Canon provided it.

LOL, and to tie back to the car analogy, do you have any idea how many car sales are closed because of cup holders and storage nooks?

So to me, it is just stupid to not match your primary competitions sales bullet when you can do so for zero investment.


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## Random Orbits (Mar 22, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> It's fascinating how the only people defending Canon's latest releases all own either a 5D3 or a 1DX, and as such, are probably not going to buy a Rebel. If yes, only as back-back-back-back-up body.
> 
> Maybe your perspective would be a bit more accurate if that was the only Canon camera in your budget. Sure, one can switch to Nikon, but it has a cost to rebuild a lens kit, and money is the problem to begin with. Otherwise we would all buy a 5D3 and a D800E and lots of top glass and be happy ever after.
> 
> I bought a D600 and I'm building a set of lenses in F-mount. I didn't like it. Switching brand is always some sort of hassle and economic inconvenience. I could afford it and it worked very well for me, in the sense that I'm very satisfied with my purchase. But I understand that not everyone can afford to do so. This doesn't make them a bunch of childish whiners. As a matter of fact, I would hardly advise anyone to buy a 700D over a D5200.



I don't think people would argue that Canon needs to improve its sensors, but that takes time -- years. Engineering takes years, tooling takes a year or more. What is coming out has been planned years ago. I think it's pretty clear Sony/Nikon caught Canon off guard. It may take a couple more years before you start seeing the changes you want.

Unfortunately, the Rebel line is refreshed yearly. It's also unfair to expect the Rebels to feature the newest and highest IQ sensors first -- I'd expect those to be in the xxD and xD lines first. And history bears that out. Over the next 3-4 years, the Rebels would inherit most of the features of the xxD line and the cycle starts again. IFF the 70D comes out with a new 24MP sensor, then the Rebel would get that in the future, not now.

Does Canon deserve to lose market share in this market? Yes, if its competition offers superior *value* to its customers, and that value is not just the body, but the whole system including lenses. But Canon also knows that a large segment won't get anything beyond the kits lens(es), so it might not lose many until it can get its problems fixed.

Canon's FF offerings were all refreshed last year. This year and next will see the APS-C lines get refreshed. The future Rebel upgrades will be clearer once the 70D is released. If you can't wait until then, choose the best system for you based on your time-table. I'm sure Canon would rather have you as a customer than lose you to a competitor, but it can only move as fast as it can. You make your choices based on your needs and what the market offers. Complaining that Canon doesn't meet your specific needs/time table won't change a thing. Individually, you or I do not matter. A single person is not a profitable market. Thousands/millions of people compose a market.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 22, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> the comments all over the internet speak volumes.



Don't they always? At least they're free to read, so people are getting what they're paying for.


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## Sporgon (Mar 22, 2013)

Actually I predict the little 100D will be highly successful; in fact I think it will prove to be the 'Rebel' that a lot of potential purchasers always wanted. Nikon and the deposed king of small - Pentax, will be falling over themselves to produce something similar. 

I'm tempted myself as a 'have everywhere' pocketable SLR despite the fact I'm a FF diehard. I think I could forgive the APS format in a SLR this small.


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## marinien (Mar 22, 2013)

skitron said:


> So to me, it is just stupid to not match your primary competitions sales bullet when you can do so for zero investment.



Does the Nikon D3200 have AFMA? ???


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## sdsr (Mar 22, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> why the hell would so many rebel user here and all over the web ask for AFMA then?
> please use your brain for a second in this discussion.



Zlatko, as far as I can tell, seems to use his brain rather well, and for periods longer than a second. Just how many people are we talking about here? I don't know, but suspect there are relatively few and that they are vastly outweighed by the number of people who either haven't the slightest idea what AFMA is or have but are intimidated by it and/or deterred from trying by Rockwell's warnings. Rebels have never had it, no? Yet they sell in rather large quantities, no? Do other companies' entry level DSLRs have AFMA?


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## Sporgon (Mar 22, 2013)

Why on earth would the vast majority of Rebel owners want AFMA ? 

Are they going to be shooting with 200 Ls at f2 ? 


AFMA is extremely tricky to use properly and easy to b*****k up your AF. 
:


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## caruser (Mar 22, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Why on earth would the vast majority of Rebel owners want AFMA ?
> 
> Are they going to be shooting with 200 Ls at f2 ?
> 
> ...


That's why the firmware should be able to automatically perform AFMA at the press of a button, using contrast-detect to calibrate phase-detect, it's not rocket science...


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## insanitybeard (Mar 22, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> sdsr said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know...
> ...



And from your tone, you do, do you? Thats the thing...... I don't know, you don't know. It's all just a big load of conjecture and hot air. I commend zlatko particularly for his efforts to be objective, but I fear it's a pointless exercise. Canon apparently has something personal against us, if some of the stuff on here to be believed. Bring on your 'Canon fanboy' comments, I'm waiting.


----------



## Nishi Drew (Mar 22, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> Malte_P said:
> 
> 
> > im a student.
> ...



Lol, what on earth are you doing with all those long lenses anyways, go get a better camera with AFMA instead of being obsessed with shooting everything shallow as heck.

Back to Canon not including AFMA in their lower lines, yeah ok it sucks but by the time I even knew what a properly sharp image was I progressed enough to want a camera that I could actually work with, although what's this, the 60D DOESN'T have AFMA?? My 70-200 front focused badly on my prev camera and needed to be able to adjust for that, and potential other lenses, so got the 5DII instead (better decision anyways). Now that makes no sense, it was like Canon trying to squeeze the XXD line out lineup all together, 7D for Pros and Rebels for noobs, no middle! Now including the function costs nothing, and exists as inaccessible firmware. I can understand why the Rebels don't have this, as someone can toy with it/attempt to "fix" their issue, and in turn mess up focusing, and then complain all over that it's a garbage camera. BUt, why not include the function as a sub custom function that's someway unlock able "to those that want to know". Because in the end, someone that thinks they need AFMA shouldn't be looking at an entry-level body, but if they find themselves using one, then having access to AFMA would be nice.


----------



## insanitybeard (Mar 22, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> insanitybeard said:
> 
> 
> > And from your tone, you do, do you? Thats the thing...... I don't know, you don't know. It's all just a big load of conjecture and hot air. I commend zlatko particularly for his efforts to be objective, but I fear it's a pointless exercise. Canon apparently has something personal against us, if some of the stuff on here to be believed.
> ...



I don't agree with capitalism in general, so I'm certainly not defending Canon's maximise profits strategy. But this is the world we live in, it's not just Canon, it's everybody. How do you change that?


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## EchoLocation (Mar 22, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Dude, what dont you get, AFMA is a pull through to get you to buy a better camera
> ...


haha, thank you so much for saying this in such a clear way. This is how I often feel, it's just hard for me to state it so clearly.


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## Malte_P (Mar 22, 2013)

insanitybeard said:


> I don't agree with capitalism in general, so I'm certainly not defending Canon's maximise profits strategy. But this is the world we live in, it's not just Canon, it's everybody. How do you change that?



being quite does not change anything, that´s for certain.


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## Malte_P (Mar 22, 2013)

Nishi Drew said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > Malte_P said:
> ...



so you say i shall buy a 7D?
for what? it has no better image quality. only to have AFMA?

different lenses offer me flexibility, a better body not so much.
no sorry, i think my money was better spend on lenses.

the problem is when canon bodys do not work correct with canon lenses.
and because i buy a cheaper camera model i can´t expect canon gear to work properly?


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## insanitybeard (Mar 22, 2013)

Malte_P said:


> insanitybeard said:
> 
> 
> > I don't agree with capitalism in general, so I'm certainly not defending Canon's maximise profits strategy. But this is the world we live in, it's not just Canon, it's everybody. How do you change that?
> ...



Absolutely, but to be heard and heeded you need to state your case where it will do the most good.


----------



## Malte_P (Mar 22, 2013)

insanitybeard said:


> Malte_P said:
> 
> 
> > insanitybeard said:
> ...



i do. i speak with my money.

i thought about buying a new canon camera, but now i will keep my 550D for a bit.


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## insanitybeard (Mar 22, 2013)

Malte_P said:


> insanitybeard said:
> 
> 
> > Absolutely, but to be heard and heeded you need to state your case where it will do the most good.
> ...



Exactly, voting with your wallet is the only way most big businesses will listen!


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## robbymack (Mar 22, 2013)

and as expected this thread devolved into a pissing match...for the record i know I'm not helping with this post.


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## iMagic (Mar 22, 2013)

I don't know why this thread has evolved into a pissing match. It is obvious that Canon will not implement features into entry level cameras that could potentially affect sales of higher end cameras. From a profit maximization perspective I understand this and normally I don't have a problem with it. However, the SL1 body size is different enough that if more pro features were implemented then advanced users would be tempted to add it to their collection and increase Canon sales. I think Canon is missing out on these additional sales with respect to the SL1 form factor. I doubt advanced users would forgo a better body build, higher end camera and stick with just the SL1. I know I would want one to supplement my other bodies, not replace them.


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## kphoto99 (Mar 22, 2013)

How many of the people who say that Canon should not include AFMA in the Rebel line would change the their mind if Canon decided that they need to "pull the money" and only include it in the 1D line?

After all, Canon wants you to buy the top of the line camera and not including AFMA in 5D or 7D would increase the sales of 1Ds.

AF should produce a perfect focus at any aperture, if it does not then what is the point of it?


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## mrsfotografie (Mar 22, 2013)

kphoto99 said:


> AF should produce a perfect focus at any aperture, if it does not then what is the point of it?



Speed.


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## sanj (Mar 22, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> mrsfotografie said:
> 
> 
> > MrFotoFool said:
> ...


----------



## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> It's fascinating how the only people defending Canon's latest releases all own either a 5D3 or a 1DX, and as such, are probably not going to buy a Rebel. If yes, only as back-back-back-back-up body.



It is interesting, but easily explained. 

If anyone wants to announce that a new $649 13-ounce camera doesn't meet their personal photographic needs, this forum and a few other forums is where they will come to say it. If anyone is inclined to tell the world how they've divined a manufacturer's devious thoughts and strategies, this forum and a few other forums is where they will come to say it. 

Photo gear forums tend to be gathering places for people who are very gear-oriented and also very discontented. Recently, I felt very sorry for a guy who had just bought a new Fuji camera and gone to a Fuji camera forum to post how happy he was with it. He was verbally blasted by a number of people who use that forum for their criticisms of Fuji. He quickly realized that he should have kept his mouth shut.

Many, many people who are buying, and successfully using, low-end cameras for kids' sports, holidays, birthdays, etc. are not coming to a photo gear rumors forum, or to any photo gear forum, to explain their choices or to express what they're looking for in a $649 13-ounce camera. That's not saying anything bad about them or their photographic skills. It's just a fact that they are not buying _that_ camera with a desire to do AFMA adjustments. Of course there are _some_ people who do want that ... and this forum is where they will come to say that. I would be happy to see AFMA in the little SL1, but I'm not the target market for that camera.

If I buy a cheap little car that gets great gas mileage and meets my needs very well, I will not hang out on a forum to discuss the design of the engine or the gearing of the transmission. But if I intend to use that same car at the race track, I may find a forum to express how it lacks certain features that would really help me for racing. And on that forum, I may well find a few other people expressing the same desire.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 22, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> and even when i sound like a broken record... AFMA is just to correct flaws in canons manufacturing process. it´s not as if the customer gets something he would not expect from the start -> correct focusing with fast glass.



I've also got a broken record  ... Canon lenses work with Canon bodies most of the time just fine, imho the main reason for Canon removing / not implementing afma is to screw 3rd party manufacturers who have a harder time to do perfect lens-body adjustments for all the brands they support -_ that's why Tamron does free lens adjustments & Sigma rolls out the lens usb interface_!


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## fonts (Mar 22, 2013)

robbymack said:


> and as expected this thread devolved into a pissing match...for the record i know I'm not helping with this post.



Oh yes it did.

It's funny cause I have the T3i, wanted something better, got the 6D. You remember how much people complained when the specs came out? I know I did, but once it was in my hands, I was set. 

I think you guys forget that the rebels are the highest sellings cameras, and they are without AFMA. Not everyone will use it, shoot I have it and still haven't used it. It's not a FLAW, have you worked in manufacturing before? Lets take it to the next level, have you work in a MASS MANUFACTURING company. I would LOVE to see canon "perfect" the tolerance between body and lens, then see you all cry because of the prices of the items reaching ten-fold. 

Being quite isn't the way to resolve what you want, but being loud isn't either, pick your fights. I too wish Canon was more innovative, but honestly, when it comes to it, they did make the best AF, best High ISO cameras out there.


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## fonts (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > It's fascinating how the only people defending Canon's latest releases all own either a 5D3 or a 1DX, and as such, are probably not going to buy a Rebel. If yes, only as back-back-back-back-up body.
> ...



+1000 I think that's already 2000 points for you sir ;D


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera. Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so. These cameras do work to _their_ specs, just not to _your_ specs.



So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 22, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Why on earth would the vast majority of Rebel owners want AFMA ?
> 
> Are they going to be shooting with 200 Ls at f2 ?
> 
> ...



It's not that tricky to use. Just aiming at a crack in the sidewalk 10' in front of you and adjusting can radically improve things. Or just aim at a player standing out on the field and adjust until the DOF centers around the grass at their feet in the way you wish.

AND if you mess it up, how hard is it to hit reset and put it all back to zero? Is that any harder than doing anything else you can do with the camera?

Is it that rare for a rebel user to try to shoot some sports or wildlife or portraits ir whatever with an 85 1.8, 70-200 2.8, 300 f/4, 50 1.4 (granted this lens is so dodgy it's pretty hard to figure out what MFA to use but that is a problem specific to that lens), 50 1.8, 100 2.8?

AND who says you HAVE to use it? If you find it confusing, don't want it, etc. DON'T USE IT! Just because some people won't be able to understand something means everyone else has to be punished. If you find it confusing then avoid it! That takes zero effort.

I haven't even used a Rebel for like ten years but I'd still like to see them put MFA in them. It's not a feature but something to even out QC. Some Rebels may be spot on, some may be at -10. Some lenses people have may be spot on some may be -15. Why should they have to suffer from that. And having no mention that calibration can be off in the manual probably confuses many a newbie shooter. Maybe they get frustrated and quit using DSLRs even. I get that they are a business and want to push people up. And maybe if it only affected f/1.2 shooting by a couple inches you could call it a pro feature and certainly 5D3 focuses a lot more precisely than a 50D even if both are calibrated, but not having MFA can even mean that f/4 shooting can sometimes be way off which seems beyond simply calling it a pro-precision to feature to me.

And removing it from the 60D after the 50D had it (and not having put it in the 40D) was pretty cheap. And you say ok send it in to canon. Yeah and then maybe miss two crucial weeks of a season or maybe they mess up say the 1D3 AF and are so busy fixing that they can't be bothered to handle calibrations for more than a month and then you are stuck. 

Anyway whatever, I've said too much already.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 22, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > and even when i sound like a broken record... AFMA is just to correct flaws in canons manufacturing process. it´s not as if the customer gets something he would not expect from the start -> correct focusing with fast glass.
> ...



Ironically once Sigma has the USB calibration in all of their lenses they will do MFA with Rebels when Canon's own body+lens combo won't and they will push sales to sigma lenses even more perhaps.


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## K-amps (Mar 22, 2013)

Some are arguing why Canon is not putting AFMA in Rebels... but if they wanted, they could also argue how much of a good thing it would be for both Canon and it's loyal user base who will invariably spend a lot more in lenses.


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera. Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so. These cameras do work to _their_ specs, just not to _your_ specs.
> ...



I didn't say that, did I? 

I think that if you did a survey of Rebel users and asked them "Does your camera back focus?" or "Is your camera's autofocus broken?", very few would respond with a "yes". This notion that _every_ non-AFMA camera is "broken" is an internet myth. If a camera actually backfocuses by 8 FEET, as in your example, then it is defective and covered by warranty, and AFMA wouldn't fix it anyway.

For most people, small cameras are like refrigerators, power tools, lawn mowers and phones. They are going to buy them and use them, _but they are not going to spend any part of their life on internet forums debating them._ Zero. I own a refrigerator, but have never visited a forum to discuss it and likely never will. The people who debate on internet forums make up a very small part of the customer base for such things, and skew the discussion toward complaints about design, discontent with the profit motive, conspiracy theories about marketing, etc.


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## awinphoto (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Zlatko said:
> ...



this is from the same guy who griped that the 5d3 didn't have the DR that the D800 has.... some people just like to nitpick and complain... This rebel, for what it is, will probably be enough for 98% of all it's intended customer base... The other 2% can either upgrade to the xxd or xd line or downgrade to the powershoots cause it is too much camera. See ya guys, got photos to take


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## iMagic (Mar 22, 2013)

Why is everyone talking about "Rebels"? This is the SL1. A new form factor that could appeal to more than just the entry level consumer.


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## rizenphoenix (Mar 22, 2013)

I think I've figured out the real reason that Canon decided to release the SL1 and T5i instead of the 70D.

They wanted to see the inevitable implosion on this forum.

8)


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## Don Haines (Mar 22, 2013)

Bit of a reality check here:

Concerning tolerances...I believe that all Canon cameras (and probably most other manufacturers) are tested with a reference lens and an internal AFMA number is stored in the body before it leaves the factory. This is how they deal with manufacturing tolerances. The process is not perfect... sometimes a lens might not be properly seated, or a mistake is made, and the wrong value gets calculated and stored..... but most of the time it gets the camera close. Same thing with lenses.

The average user will never notice that the image is not perfect.... it is "good enough". Many will remark on how it is way better than that p/s or cell phone camera they had.... They are buying a camera to take pictures and most of the time leaving it in auto will do just fine. 

The SL1 and T5i are for those who will leave it in auto most of the time. They will take great pictures. They will be proud of them. They will be happy. There are also a whole heck of a lot of them so these two cameras will sell lots.


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## Zlatko (Mar 22, 2013)

iMagic said:


> Why is everyone talking about "Rebels"? This is the SL1. A new form factor that could appeal to more than just the entry level consumer.


The SL1 is called the "Rebel SL1". Check the Canon web site.


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## iMagic (Mar 22, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> iMagic said:
> 
> 
> > Why is everyone talking about "Rebels"? This is the SL1. A new form factor that could appeal to more than just the entry level consumer.
> ...



i realize that. Thats why i put rebel in quotes. Perhaps i was being too subtle. I meant it isnt a traditional rebel. So i dont think the usual canon marketing rules should apply. I guess i am the only one thinking along those lines.


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## scrup (Mar 22, 2013)

My 2 cents.

AFMA to me is a diagnostic tool. It is there to get the most of your tool.
Same as a computer that gives you access to the bios to tweak settings.

Some people will use it and some people would care less. But its good to have the option to be able to get the most from your tool.

Canon should see it this way and not as a feature to get people to upgrade to better bodies. It doesn't cost them much and it might even get people talking about tweaking lens versus b****ing about this new camera.

Anyhow how come ML haven't come up with a solution for AFMA?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 22, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



Yeah well it doesn't have even close to the same DR the D800 does.

Believe it or not you ain't the only one with photos to take. How do you think people ended up hitting into problems with AF calibration or not having enough DR at times?

I'm not saying they need to put anythng special into the Rebel just give it MFA so it can be easily made to function to spec (and now that does not mean it will focus nearly as precisely as say a 1DX evne if both are calibrated, but at least it will do what a Rebel should be able to do).


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 23, 2013)

iMagic said:


> I meant it isnt a *traditional rebel*



You are *clearly confused*. Put on your *plastic glasses* and step out of your *virtual reality*. Canon's marketing strategy is an *open secret* - and that's not just an *unbiased opinion*, it's based on an *original copy* of an internal memo. I'd go into more detail, but I have to go finish the *larger half* of my dinner, I'm having *jumbo shrimp*. 

Sorry for the digression - I found your oxymoron *seriously funny*.


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## Hobby Shooter (Mar 23, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Zlatko said:
> ...


For giving his view?

I think you have made your view clear in numerous posts and should accept that others also wants to chip in.


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## fonts (Mar 23, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> iMagic said:
> 
> 
> > I meant it isnt a *traditional rebel*
> ...




Lmfao such a trololol, love it!


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## elflord (Mar 23, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> You seem to have never encountered a person who wished for a simpler, smaller camera.



I've encountered both -- those who wish for small simple cameras and those who wish for small but powerful cameras. The former use iphones or point and shoots, the latter usually use SLRs or mirrorless. 



> Many people who buy low end DSLRS cameras love pictures but are not into nit-picking over technical adjustments, doing AFMA or reading about it on gear forums. They buy zooms, not primes, because zooms are more useful to them.



Yes, but many people who buy low end DSLRs are buying them because they can't afford the high end cameras (e.g. art or photography students). 



> And your claim about treating buyers of low end products "with contempt" is imaginative, but not based on any fact. It presumes a fantastic mind-reading ability. You imagine this contempt for the buyer because your premise is that cheaper products should have the same advanced features as more expensive products, which is not a valid premise in the business world. That's a prescription for business failure.



But what makes a product "cheap" or "expensive" ? 

Feature bullet points, especially firmware related ones aren't it -- even point and shoots have impressive feature sets these days (face recognition, built in panorama support, as well as more "serious" features like raw support, color temperature control, spot metering, manual focus and/or selectable AF regions, hotshoe mounted flash etc)

In a competitive market, what makes a product expensive are features that add substantially to marginal or fixed costs of production, and/or absence of economy of scale to absorb fixed costs. In the case of cameras, the former largely consists of the sensor (e.g. larger sensors are MUCH more expensive), and most probably a more rigorous testing process.

There's no reason features that don't add substantially to marginal cost of production shouldn't be included in cheaper products. Failing to put this there is just a way of crippling the cheaper products. In Canon's case, it seems to be a calculated move to prevent their low end products from cannibalizing sales from their flagships. Whether or not this will be a good business strategy for them is an empirical question -- but I would find it hard to recommend the rebel line to a serious user on a tight budget.


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## AshleyAshes (Mar 23, 2013)

Anyone else interested in trying to figure out if the T5i really has MJPEG support or if DPReview made an error, or do ya'll just wanna fight and argue over a camera that, if it doesn't suit your needs, you're welcome to not purchase it.

Cause I gotta say, while I wouldn't replace y T2i and T4i for a T5i due to it only being an incremental update, a T5i with 4:2:2 MJPEG would be pretty nice for starting DSLR film makers looking for something 'not too expensive' but with decent features. Right now I'm rendering green screen footage I filmed in a Crown Victoria Police Interceptor on a T2i and I can tell you, it'd be nice if it had been shot on MJPEG instead of h.264.


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## awinphoto (Mar 23, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Zlatko said:
> ...



Yep, when clients are reacting when they see the photos from my 5d3, we ALL know they say "damn that's too bad you didn't have more DR or a 36 mega pixel camera". But, what one of my top models DID tell me that she hated my camera because it has too much detail and shows all her imperfections. Rebel is a rebel, no more no less. Whatever did we do when we had the 10d, 20d, 30d, 40d, 5d classic... The 60d has no reason it shouldn't have afma, but if the 70d doesn't have it, then panic


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## cccp80 (Mar 23, 2013)

Should we expect new full frame bodies any time soon?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 23, 2013)

AshleyAshes said:


> Anyone else interested in trying to figure out if the T5i really has MJPEG support or if DPReview made an error, or do ya'll just wanna fight and argue over a camera that, if it doesn't suit your needs, you're welcome to not purchase it.
> 
> Cause I gotta say, while I wouldn't replace y T2i and T4i for a T5i due to it only being an incremental update, a T5i with 4:2:2 MJPEG would be pretty nice for starting DSLR film makers looking for something 'not too expensive' but with decent features. Right now I'm rendering green screen footage I filmed in a Crown Victoria Police Interceptor on a T2i and I can tell you, it'd be nice if it had been shot on MJPEG instead of h.264.



Why do you think it would be 4:2:2 even if it used MJPEG?
It seems hard to believe they suddenly bare to give away 4:2:2 in a rebel first.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 23, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> Yep, when clients are reacting when they see the photos from my 5d3, we ALL know they say "damn that's too bad you didn't have more DR or a 36 mega pixel camera". But, what one of my top models DID tell me that she hated my camera because it has too much detail and shows all her imperfections. Rebel is a rebel, no more no less. Whatever did we do when we had the 10d, 20d, 30d, 40d, 5d classic... The 60d has no reason it shouldn't have afma, but if the 70d doesn't have it, then panic



Yeah well maybe get out of the studio for once and shoot some giant landscapes that can't be lit with flashes or umbrellas....


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 23, 2013)

cccp80 said:


> Should we expect new full frame bodies any time soon?



We just got the 5D3 and 1DX and 6D  so I highly doubt before late 2013 or early 2014 at best. Next one might be some sort of higher MP body hopefully finally with a new process sensor that has better DR.


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## bycostello (Mar 23, 2013)

if they don't suit buy something else...


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## CanNotYet (Mar 23, 2013)

I think AFMA should be standard in ANY camera, but I do understand why it is not. I also seriously doubt it costs zero to add. As a professional software tester I believe that adding this feature to ANY camera model would include testing of that feature. (at least some regression testing)

Although lots of testing can be automated, and one can limit oneself to spot testing (not testing every camera body), it will still cost human effort, and as a consequence, money. 

So, unless you actually work at Canon, and was present at the meeting where the QA responsible took the decision to take the risk of never testing AFMA in a new camera body (and can prove that to us), I would not claim that I know how much it costs to add.

It could still be cheap, when you spread it out on the volumes for these cameras, but we do not know that, and in this end of the camera spectrum, cutting manufacturing costs is good practise.


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## altenae (Mar 23, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> no other manufacturer is bold enough to bring such a stunt!!! hats off!!
> 
> the comments all over the internet speak volumes.
> 
> ...



A freelancer without work I guess. 
Seems many photographers have plenty of time for this kind of topics.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 23, 2013)

CanNotYet said:


> So, unless you actually work at Canon, and was present at the meeting where the QA responsible took the decision to take the risk of never testing AFMA in a new camera body (and can prove that to us), I would not claim that I know how much it costs to add.



Ok, then let's say it's "next to zero cost" - I know features need testing and servicing, and that's why the Canon fw never will have the features of Magic Lantern. But afma is practically self-servicing: The user has to figure out the values, it's simpy added or subtracted from/to the transmitted af value, and you can reset it at any time.

Imho there is really no excuse for removing it, deeply hidden inside Fn it doesn't confuse anyone, it's only due to marketing as the removal 50d->60d proves.


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## Act444 (Mar 23, 2013)

About this AFMA talk - I had the 60D (just sold it) and got along perfectly fine without the AFMA feature - at least, until I got the 40mm 2.8 (has a weird backfocus at longer distances)...and a 24-85mm lens that front-focuses. Would have been nice to be able to try to correct it in-house before needing to send it back. At least my current 5D has it, and although I haven't needed to use it yet, good to know it's there just in case.

I don't think it's really necessary on Rebels since the focusing on them tends to be inconsistent anyway (at least that was the case with my old T2i). AFMA wouldn't fix that. But definitely, leaving it out of the 60D was a ? move. In the vast majority of cases, I didn't really need it anyway. 

Most people who get Rebels leave the stock lens on - or at best, get a 50mm 1.8...I'm sure if the focus is found to be off, it's simply exchanged for a new one.
_________________

About this SL1 - I think it's a great idea, actually and I think it will sell well. Everyone's looking for smaller cameras that can still take a decent-quality shot. I'd love to try one out myself when I get the chance. Curious especially to see how the handling is compared to the M. The only thing that might stop me from actually picking one up might be the focusing system - it's identical to the T2i focusing system which gave me fits with fast-aperture lenses...extremely inconsistent focusing especially near MFD, etc (and again, AFMA would have been useless here)...the M, although slower, is more accurate. I'd mainly be looking to pair a prospective SL1 with the 40mm 2.8 and perhaps a 35mm f2 IS (as a backup to the 5D/travel alternative) so it would need to be able to focus properly with those lenses.


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## cccp80 (Mar 23, 2013)

Act444 said:


> I don't think it's really necessary on Rebels since the focusing on them tends to be inconsistent anyway (at least that was the case with my old T2i). AFMA wouldn't fix that.



Not quite. Yes, the phase detection AF on most Canons is inconsistent but you can increase your good image outcome by a lot by doing AFMA. Just to give you an example. Let's say that without any adjustment your average focus is located at +6 with the shot-to-shot error of +/-3 units (that means that the lower and upper bounds are +3 and +9). If you keep it at that you will never get a sharp image. Now, if you do microadjustment of -6 units, you are zeroing your average focus position and your range becomes from -3 to +3 - much better. You will get much better images in this case.


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## elflord (Mar 23, 2013)

cccp80 said:


> Should we expect new full frame bodies any time soon?



I heard the 5D Mark IV is just around the corner. The question is, whether to buy that or wait for the Mark V which will be even better.


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## elflord (Mar 23, 2013)

cccp80 said:


> Act444 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think it's really necessary on Rebels since the focusing on them tends to be inconsistent anyway (at least that was the case with my old T2i). AFMA wouldn't fix that.
> ...



Yep. Even if you are within the error range, you will get improvements. Suppose the keep rate when properly calibrated is 95% (+-2 standard deviations). Let's say the standard deviation is 3 AFMA units. Even if you're off by half a standard deviation (1.5 units so 95% of your shots fall between -4.5 and +7.5) your miss rate increases by about 50%, and goes up to 16% (3 times as much) if you are off by 3 AFMA units.

If you are towards the edge of the 95% band, it becomes a crapshoot (at that point it's about 50/50 -- you basically need to hope that the random component of your AF errors are in the right direction to make up for the miscalibration)


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## cccp80 (Mar 23, 2013)

Hey, elford,
I see you got the 5D mark III.
Is the AF on this model really that much better than on previous models? What is the st. dev for it in Canon's units (if you know of course)?


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## Marsu42 (Mar 23, 2013)

Act444 said:


> Most people who get Rebels leave the stock lens on - or at best, get a 50mm 1.8...



How would you know? Just because the people in this forum are so well-off that they don't use Rebels with L glass? If I'd had to decide, I'd use 550d+70-300L rather than 60d/7d+70-300 non-L.



elflord said:


> I heard the 5D Mark IV is just around the corner. The question is, whether to buy that or wait for the Mark V which will be even better.



Hey, I usually write this :-> ... but actually I really don't expect the 5d4 to be as late as the 5d3, the af is great (with good/expensive lenses, that is) ... but once (and IF) Canon updates their sensor tech imho the profitable 5d line will be the second to get it ... along with an internal rt flash controller, I hope.


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## Act444 (Mar 24, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Act444 said:
> 
> 
> > Most people who get Rebels leave the stock lens on - or at best, get a 50mm 1.8...
> ...



Because 80-90% of the people I see shooting with Rebels out in the field are doing so with the stock lens...mind you, it's only from my own experience and I realize there are many that use much more expensive lenses with them. I was one of them (I used the 70-200 F4 IS with it)


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## jdramirez (Mar 24, 2013)

Act444 said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Act444 said:
> ...



I sold appliances for a while... so everytime I see an appliance on tv, I stop the dvr and try and see what kind it is... It always annoys me when they try to pass a $1500 4 piece kitchen frigidaire off as somethig someone who is REALLY successful might have. 

As for cameras... I constantly lens peep. The 18-55 is predominant, but occasionally I see a Tamron superzoom or an 18-135... but I'm genuinely shocked when I see a MILF rocking a 5d mkiii and a 24-70 mkii... or mki... if I'm going to get that close, I'm checking out the fake boobs and not which iteration of lens she has.


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## Random Orbits (Mar 24, 2013)

Act444 said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Act444 said:
> ...



This is not far from the truth. In October 2011, Canon announced that the 50 millionth EOS cameras and 70 millionth EF lens was produced. 1.4 lenses to each body.


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## elflord (Mar 24, 2013)

cccp80 said:


> Hey, elford,
> I see you got the 5D mark III.
> Is the AF on this model really that much better than on previous models? What is the st. dev for it in Canon's units (if you know of course)?



Sorry it's confusing but the camera model that shows up beneath our names has nothing to do with what we own. I own a 5DII and a micro 4/3 camera. Before that I had an old Rebel (XS). 

The standard deviation and the "tolerance range" in number of AFMA units are not fixed quantities -- variability of the AF will depend on things like subject distance, and available lighting (either ambient or flash/ AF assist). Then the range for which an object appears to be in focus could be 2 or 3 or 5 standard deviations depending on depth of field. 

Roger at Lens Rentals had some tests where he looked at the variability of autofocus of some different bodies (including the 5DIII) with some different lenses. My recollection was that with many tested lenses, phase detection on the 5DIII is more consistent than older bodies. Contrast detect (used in live view and on mirrorless bodies) is more accurate but slower. I'd suggest searching lensrentals for the article if you are intersted, it was a good read.


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## jdramirez (Mar 24, 2013)

Random Orbits said:


> Act444 said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...


There are some fine ef-s lenses (which also may not be in the calculation), like the 17-55... but that's a valid point. I personally have owned a 50mm f/1.8, a 50mm f/1.4, a 75-300mm, a 70-200mm f/4L, a 100mm f/2.8L, a 70-200mm f/2.8L, a 70-300mm f/4-5.6, and a 24-105mm f/4L. So that means that I have accounted for my share along with 15 ish other people's share as well... and that's not even including the ef-s lens I have owned at one time.


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## Zlatko (Mar 24, 2013)

elflord said:


> There's no reason features that don't add substantially to marginal cost of production shouldn't be included in cheaper products. Failing to put this there is just a way of crippling the cheaper products. In Canon's case, it seems to be a calculated move to prevent their low end products from cannibalizing sales from their flagships. Whether or not this will be a good business strategy for them is an empirical question -- but I would find it hard to recommend the rebel line to a serious user on a tight budget.



Let's look at this a different way. There's no reason features that don't add substantially to marginal cost of production shouldn't also be included in _more expensive_ products. So failing to include them is just a way of crippling the _more expensive_ products. And even if they do add a few pennies to the marginal cost, that extra cost is much more easily added to the more expensive product -- so why not add it?

For example, the 5DIII lacks the "Creative Filters" of the SL1. The creative filters offer a number of special effects: Toy Camera, Fisheye, Miniature, Grainy Black & White, Soft Focus, Art Bold, Water Painting and Miniature Movie. Not only that, but the 5DIII lacks special scene modes found on the much cheaper SL1, like Candlelight, Food, Kids, Night Portrait, HDR Backlight Control and Handheld Night Scene. See how the 5DIII is "crippled"!  Yikes, the 1DX is "crippled" too! 

Based on some arguments in this thread, we might conclude that it would cost "nothing" to have included such features in the 5DIII. And yet the SL1 has them, and the 5DIII doesn't. So why the heck did Canon "cripple" the 5DIII by omitting so many features? Why doesn't the 5DIII have fabulous built-in creative filters like Toy Camera and Grainy Black & White? Is Canon just being greedy? Or are they just being foolish, losing potential customers to competing brands?

Of course, different users have different expectations. So the 5DIII is not actually "crippled" by the lack of those creative filters, because the buyer of a 5DIII is not likely to want them or use them -- although a few buyers might. Many buyers might find such creative filters to be an annoyance on their advanced camera. But those few buyers who actually want Toy Camera, Grainy Black & White and other creative filters on their 5DIII can complain that it would cost "nothing" to add, and it would be of no consequence to add a "creative" tab to the 5DIII menus. Without it, they are "forced" to buy the SL1 or another camera that has such features.

So the argument works both ways. If basic cameras should have advanced features from advanced cameras, then advanced cameras should have basic features from basic cameras. That is, if you don't mind the added *clutter* that many buyers would find annoying and useless, and which might drive them toward a competing product that is more *rationally designed* to meet _their_ expectations.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 24, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> Artifex said:
> 
> 
> > *Always funny to see people complaining that the new low-end camera aren't focused on professionals users needs.* The fact is that both these camera's target audience are amateurs who just what to make a few good looking picture easily. The great majority of them have no idea what are AFMA, DR or other. The thing they will see, though, is that they can get just as good picture from this camera that the last model but it is of smaller size, so it is more portable and more practical for them.
> ...



Said by many others, the rebel line is not about advancements, its about having something they can call new for the people who know nothing about photography (or little to nothing - the kind that will slap it in P mode and never change it). 

You want new, wait for the 7d2, or wait for the big mp, but I really don't get how anyone would expect 2013's new rebel to be more than the old rebel with a new name plate on it.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 24, 2013)

Artifex said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > Artifex said:
> ...




+1 ---a rebel user that actually knows what AFMA does, they would know enough and probably progressed enough to upgrade to XXD or XD lines. the rebel users upgrading to other rebels - that's the guy who brought his rebel to the bar and forgot it there, or dropped it. Like you said, you don't go sell your 2012 yaris to buy a 2013 yaris, that's not really an upgrade - a camry hybrid would be an upgrade!


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## jdramirez (Mar 24, 2013)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> Artifex said:
> 
> 
> > Freelancer said:
> ...



when I got my xs I didn't know what afma was. when I upgraded to my 60d, I didn't know what afma was. when I found out what it was and that it was stripped from the 50d, I was super pissed. I grow into my gear as I get better, but it is annoying.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 24, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Canon-F1 said:
> ...



Back to the car analogy, so the cheap car should get heated seats and a roll cage and turbo and etc etc etc just so its fair? 

And this can be taken another way too. A pin hole camera can take some pretty creative shots with no lenses at all. Every upgrade has it's price and its compromise. If you buy that $2k lens for the $600 body, then you will be limited by that body. For one, the effective FOV won't be what it should be due to the crop, so you won't really be getting all you can out of the lens. And while you let in more light, your ISO range will still be limited. If your in the emerging photog camp, you gotta make due with what you got and plan your buying! Most people on this path end up with a mix of for crop and FF lenses. and there's nothing wrong with that! But, maybe if your buying 2K glass, just maybe, you can afford a slightly better body too?

"in the end everyone pays the same for a 85mm f1.2.. not?" Yes, the lens is the same cost, but all it takes is a day of reading to learn that you won't be getting all you can out of this lens on a rebel body. No rebel body has had AFMA. Save yourself the hassle and use the 85 1.8, then you can buy the nicer body. Optically the 1.8 IS very comparable to the 1.2 other than it's ability to shoot below 1.8 (stopped down the 1.8 may actually be better than the 1.2). If your on the tight budget and clever, yeah, you snag the f1.8 for $400 and a 7d. To me, if your buying specialized prime L series lenses your doing so because you have a body that can fully handle them, or because you plan to have a body that can handle them in the future. 

"when you are clever, you buy the best glass and a cheaper body... not the other way around."

Allow me to reword that - when you are clever, you buy the* best gear bag you can get with the budget allotted to you*... not the other way around.

Back to the overall point, people have to get real! Most who buy rebels don't go body only, they get it with the kit lens and more times than not, that's all they go with! Kit lens, pop-up flash...whooohoooo.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 24, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> when I got my xs I didn't know what afma was. when I upgraded to my 60d, I didn't know what afma was. when I found out what it was and that it was stripped from the 50d, I was super pissed. I grow into my gear as I get better, but it is annoying.



I started with a T1i, 17-55/2.8 IS and 85/1.8. I knew enough to spend more on lens(es) than body, but nothing about AFMA. Then I bought a 100L Macro IS, which noticeably backfocused, so I did some research. I soon bought a 7D, and I'll never buy another AFMA-less body.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 24, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > skitron said:
> ...




uggg...these users are like 1 out of every 100 though!


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 24, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> MrFotoFool said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone remember the film days, when a new camera model was introduced every five years or more? Now anything over a year and people are freaking out. I started on the fantastic manual Pentax K1000 which had about a 20 year production run (and I am pretty sure is the best selling camera model of all time).
> ...




uggg...most rebel users...and yes i know there are some that know what they're doing...most rebel users i encounter don't even know how to handle the AF system, they have it set tot he same damn all point active setting that it was on when it came out of the box. I can't even count the # of times I've been confronted by one of these users at events, they all ask the same things but haven't even taken a peek at the manual. The kind that say, whats that?, when they hear the word aperture. Focus points? What are those...these are the people that drive the rebel market!


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## jdramirez (Mar 24, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > when I got my xs I didn't know what afma was. when I upgraded to my 60d, I didn't know what afma was. when I found out what it was and that it was stripped from the 50d, I was super pissed. I grow into my gear as I get better, but it is annoying.
> ...


I walk around with the grand in lenses in my bag f1.4, f2.8, f3.5, and f4. I've gotten lucky more often than not and haven't had issues with back or front focussing. But Canon basically admitted that the xxd level owner it's proficient enough to warrant afma being in the camera. I could care less about the rebel series, but it does annoy me it was stripped. 

I'm getting a5d mkii here shortly, so it hasn't annoyed me so much that I switched to Nikon.


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## jdramirez (Mar 24, 2013)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > MrFotoFool said:
> ...


 But without them Canon wouldn't have nearly the profits to do all the necessary r&d... so think of them as the tax payer that helps to build the b2 bomber.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 24, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Skiltron, the point is the average rebel user isn't an above average photographer... it's a person who goes to costco and see's a rebel as splurging... It's the realtor that would rather do their own photos rather than pay for a pro to do them for them and wonder why the photos dont look right... It's that soccer mom who wants to take the photos of little jimmy and dont give a rats butt about the horrid noise... Then they read in the manual that oh yeah, it has afma, and has NO clue how to do it, or dont even read the manual in the first place and dont even know it's there... then canon has to deal with the morons who buy the camera, reads about afma, and then calls them asking how to do it, and have their employees on the phone with the people for 10-15 minutes at a time trying to talk them through it, wasting their time and money... It's stupid... it's advanced... It's like getting a hyundai accent and complaining it has a stick shift saying it should have pedal shifters instead. It's more than enough camera for what that target market is aimed for.
> ...



I can only go back to the car analogy - small cars can have AWD and anti-lock breaks. I live in the northeast, so I can get a lot of use of ABS and AWD. But to get those features, your buying something more expensive, and probably less gas efficient. Can you still stop your car without ABS? Yeah, just pump the breaks! 

Limited budget means be savvy all around, not just on the camera body!


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## awinphoto (Mar 24, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, when clients are reacting when they see the photos from my 5d3, we ALL know they say "damn that's too bad you didn't have more DR or a 36 mega pixel camera". But, what one of my top models DID tell me that she hated my camera because it has too much detail and shows all her imperfections. Rebel is a rebel, no more no less. Whatever did we do when we had the 10d, 20d, 30d, 40d, 5d classic... The 60d has no reason it shouldn't have afma, but if the 70d doesn't have it, then panic
> ...



You just dont get it [/shakes head]... The day landscapes pay me the money studio does, then I will look at things differently... then again, when I do go out and about, I know what i'm doing, i know what filters I need and I dont fret DR...


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## elflord (Mar 24, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> So why the heck did Canon "cripple" the 5DIII by omitting so many features? Why doesn't the 5DIII have fabulous built-in creative filters like Toy Camera and Grainy Black & White? Is Canon just being greedy?



This is the first time I've heard anyone complain about this feature, and it is in jest. I agree that it is possible for a feature to have zero or even negative marginal value, and that in-camera art filters on a pro body would have no or negative marginal value (if they were high enough in the decision tree to be accessible they would have a negative marginal value because of the resulting clutter, otherwise it would be about 0)

I don't agree that AFMA on rebel bodies is such a feature. 

For one, AFMA is completely usable even if it's buried under layers of menus, because it doesn't need to be manipulated during day to day shooting -- it is only adjusted in controlled (e.g. non time critical) settings. Even on the 5DII (for example) it's buried in a 3 layer menu (go to the right tab, then select AF/other, then select micro adjust).

I don't understand why putting that in the Rebel would overly complicate things. They do already have equally confusing items (e.g. such as a two axis white balance adjustment which would have even many advanced users scratching their heads) 

Art filters by contrast in cameras that have them tend to occupy spots close to the top of the decision heirarchy (sometimes they are actually hardwired into the manual controls which would be incredibly annoying for most 1D and 5D series users). They need to be done this way to be quickly accessible. 



> Of course, different users have different expectations.



Of course, but my point is that one of the reasons people buy inexpensive cameras is because of budgetery constraints, not because they are unsophisticated users. 

I do agree with you that Canon's point of view seems to be that the Rebel line is unsuitable for the more sophisticated user. A savvy user on a budget probably shouldn't buy a rebel. 

I simply don't believe your contention that Canon's reason for omitting this feature from their Rebel (or there XXD bodies from which it was removed) is to avoid adding "unwanted features". In fact on the contrary it looks like the point is to send a message to advanced users who might otherwise purchase rebel series bodies that they really should step up and buy one of their more expensive offerings.


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## cccp80 (Mar 24, 2013)

elflord said:


> Sorry it's confusing but the camera model that shows up beneath our names has nothing to do with what we own. I own a 5DII and a micro 4/3 camera. Before that I had an old Rebel (XS).
> 
> The standard deviation and the "tolerance range" in number of AFMA units are not fixed quantities -- variability of the AF will depend on things like subject distance, and available lighting (either ambient or flash/ AF assist). Then the range for which an object appears to be in focus could be 2 or 3 or 5 standard deviations depending on depth of field.
> 
> Roger at Lens Rentals had some tests where he looked at the variability of autofocus of some different bodies (including the 5DIII) with some different lenses. My recollection was that with many tested lenses, phase detection on the 5DIII is more consistent than older bodies. Contrast detect (used in live view and on mirrorless bodies) is more accurate but slower. I'd suggest searching lensrentals for the article if you are intersted, it was a good read.



Found the article you were talking about. There are 3 parts and you were right, very good read!


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## Zlatko (Mar 24, 2013)

elflord said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > So why the heck did Canon "cripple" the 5DIII by omitting so many features? Why doesn't the 5DIII have fabulous built-in creative filters like Toy Camera and Grainy Black & White? Is Canon just being greedy?
> ...



So you understand that if the 5DIII were loaded with beginner "creative filters" and "scene modes", it may well drive a potential purchaser to a competitor's product that was more rationally designed for its intended buyer. Not only would it cost something to include these features in the software, but it may well cost a manufacturer sales and good will, and earn it a reputation for poor and bloated design. Remember how many people complained about the useless "Print" button on the 5D (never mind that some people actually used it)? Likewise, loading a basic camera with advanced features may well turn away potential buyers. They may prefer a competitor's model that isn't cluttered with features they didn't want and would never use.

My point is that when people on gear forums say there is "no reason" not to include some feature, in fact there may be a very good reason from the manufacturer's perspective. There may be a 100,000 good reasons ... i.e., a great many customers for that camera, not the small number of people who frequent gear forums to commiserate about how they feel cheated. You can probably find a small number of people who insist that some sports car should come "standard" with a towing hitch so they can tow their motorcycle or boat. But that's not a convincing reason for a car company to design their sports car with a towing hitch, and that towing hitch may well turn away a lot of their potential buyers.

And if the point is to send a message, as you say, to advanced users that they really should step up, well that is a perfectly valid business decision. It's not so different from the business decision to omit lots of cool features from the "crippled" 5D3 that are found in the much cheaper SL1. That omission sends a message too.


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## M.ST (Mar 24, 2013)

The big innovation is, that there is no innovation and you pay a lot more than for a 650D.

We need a 7D mark II with a cf card slot, a 5D Mark IV or higher with a cf card slot and a lot of lens replacements or new lenses.


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## aznable (Mar 24, 2013)

M.ST said:


> The big innovation is, that there is no innovation and you pay a lot more than for a 650D.
> 
> We need a 7D mark II with a cf card slot, a 5D Mark IV or higher with a cf card slot and a lot of lens replacements or new lenses.



you forgot aps-h sensor for 7d and a 20 stop BSI sensor for 5d mk iv


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## Hillsilly (Mar 24, 2013)

My Car analogy - a tale of two industries.

First we have the car industry. The industry is very competitive, with several dozen manufacturers fighting for each sale. While the cars are built for a price point, every possible enhancement is crammed in. The car industry loves low-cost features and they know the absence of them will drive some buyers to other makes. Everything from multiple baby seat anchor points to bluetooth connectivity and ipod connections are being crammed in there. If it doesn't add significantly to the cost, its in. And those items that aren't standard features can often be added through the dealership as an option extra or through aftermarket suppliers. 

Behind the scenes, designers and engineers are working on new technologies to make cars more efficient, safer, and better to drive. Competition has made the following almost universally standard - Air conditioning, ABS, rear reversing cameras, self parking cars, voice activation, WiFi, airbags (often up to 10), traction control, blind spot monitoring, GPS, seats that remember the preferred position of different drivers, keyless entry...I could go on, but you get my point. 

And then we have the camera industry, which has only two big players in DSLRs. While the big guys are seen to be competitive, the fact that they can drop key, low cost, technologies to drive customers to higher priced models, and get away with it, suggests that competition isn't that fierce. 

Now, I'm not knocking Canon. If it is a successful strategy, great. And consumers can research the features of cameras before buying them. And they can choose to buy different cameras that might meet their needs better. But I think any comparison with the motor vehicle industry is a little tenuous.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 24, 2013)

M.ST said:


> We need a 7D mark II with a cf card slot, a 5D Mark IV or higher with a cf card slot and a lot of lens replacements or new lenses.



What's so important about cf cards (or was that irony)? For my money, I want dual sd cards - smaller and also very fast.



Random Orbits said:


> This is not far from the truth. In October 2011, Canon announced that the 50 millionth EOS cameras and 70 millionth EF lens was produced. 1.4 lenses to each body.



It's be really interesting if the ef-s lenses are included - but even if not this proves Canon marketing's efficiency, they manage to make people buy new camera bodies all the time - just like Intel/AMD convince users to change their mainboard/memory alongside their cpu but at the same time market them as "changeable".


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## elflord (Mar 24, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> My point is that when people on gear forums say there is "no reason" not to include some feature, in fact there may be a very good reason from the manufacturer's perspective. There may be a 100,000 good reasons ...



Yet you haven't stated any for the feature that we are discussing (AFMA). Instead, you have brought up two features that are not analogous -- art filters and the print button (my comments about the art filters apply to the print button -- it's at the top level)

Also you mention it costs something to add a feature in software but gross costs are not the same thing as marginal costs. The marginal cost of putting AFMA in rebel bodies would not be very substantial (they already have the software for this) 



> But that's not a convincing reason for a car company to design their sports car with a towing hitch, and that towing hitch may well turn away a lot of their potential buyers.



You're doing a great job of coming up with analogies that are not relevant, but not such a great job of addressing the issue at hand (which is again, AFMA)



> And if the point is to send a message, as you say, to advanced users that they really should step up, well that is a perfectly valid business decision.



Well, you are welcome to defend it _as a business decision_. However, Canon's policy of going out of their way to cripple their lower end products does make them less attractive (and difficult to recommend to someone on a tight budget!)

Also, whatever you might say about the "majority of rebel users" -- I wonder how many 5-series and 1-series users start out as Rebel users ? (I did) There is a delicate balance here -- they do want to be able to encourage these people to ultimately upgrade to a 5 or 1 series body but they don't want to make the entry level body so awful that these users start out with a different manufacturer.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 24, 2013)

elflord said:


> Also, whatever you might say about the "majority of rebel users" -- I wonder *how many 5-series and 1-series users start out as Rebel users ? (I did) *There is a delicate balance here -- they do want to be able to encourage these people to ultimately upgrade to a 5 or 1 series body but they don't want to make the entry level body so awful that these users start out with a different manufacturer.



As did I. So for us at least, and I suspect there are lots of others like us, it seems their 'cripple the low end to drive up-marketing' strategy is working rather well.


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## elflord (Mar 24, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> elflord said:
> 
> 
> > Also, whatever you might say about the "majority of rebel users" -- I wonder *how many 5-series and 1-series users start out as Rebel users ? (I did) *There is a delicate balance here -- they do want to be able to encourage these people to ultimately upgrade to a 5 or 1 series body but they don't want to make the entry level body so awful that these users start out with a different manufacturer.
> ...



I suspect that there are many more who are not "like us" -- we have more disposable income than the typical hobbyists.


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## jdramirez (Mar 24, 2013)

elflord said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > elflord said:
> ...



Interesting question, but I'm 90% sure that the rich ladies who want a "nice" camera make up less than 2% of the market for 5D and 1D buyers. I'd guess that 70% are professionals or are used in a professional capacity with the remaining 25% being hobbyists.


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## EchoLocation (Mar 24, 2013)

elflord said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > elflord said:
> ...


I started out in the DSLR world with a 550D and soon after bought a 24-105 new. Later I bought a 5D classic and was sold on FF for good.
I was waiting with credit card in hand to pre order the 5DIII for 2800 bucks or less, but alas, it wasn't to be. One of the main reasons for me choosing Canon at first was their more reasonable pricing than Nikon(at the time(2009)). 
By the time the 24-70 II was announced and the 6D vs D600, I had had enough and was sick of the new pricing strategy(everything expensive(except the 40mm, which I don't need) and the lack of exciting products(less exciting specs than the competition, similar or lower rated reviews to the competition, No RX1 competition, and slow 2.8 primes.) 
I chose to buy a used D700 and a 24-70 from Nikon. I was worried about switching brands, but at this point, i'd feel like a fool if i hadn't. 
To be honest, i'm pretty much done with big DSLRs and heavy glass. I'm not a Nikon fanboy at all. My next camera will either be an RX1 or any FF mirrorless camera or SL1 sized full frame. 
I truly hope Canon, Nikon, Fuji, or Sony make this in the next year before I start another year of travel. I'd be happy to switch back to Canon if they can create that sense of confidence in their pricing, and exciting new products that has been missing the past couple of years.


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## jdramirez (Mar 24, 2013)

EchoLocation said:


> elflord said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


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## elflord (Mar 24, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> Interesting question, but I'm 90% sure that the rich ladies who want a "nice" camera make up less than 2% of the market for 5D and 1D buyers. I'd guess that 70% are professionals or are used in a professional capacity with the remaining 25% being hobbyists.



I don't follow what you mean here. Would you elaborate ? Your numbers don't add up and neither does your logic. 

My point is that I believe that many of those 25% started out as Rebel users (I notice you too started out as a Rebel user ... are you a "rich lady who wants a nice camera" too ?). Also, I wouldn't completely dismiss the 70% (who may also have started off as Rebel users) -- many pro photographers are in a position of being able to choose their equipment so if they have a strong affinity with a given brand when they are hobbyists / students, they are likely to stick with it as professionals.

Whatever percentage of the potential 5 series user base start out as Rebel users, they aren't going to make up a large percentage of the _Rebel user base_ but they are still strategically important to Canon (and other manufacturers who might want to lure them away)


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 24, 2013)

Probably stating the obvious, but the vast majority of Rebel/xxxD buyers will never upgrade, per se, nor will they buy lenses beyond the initial kit. They may buy a new camera if theirs breaks, and that will be whatever is the current Rebel/xxxD. For the minority who will upgrade, Canon tries to give them reasons to do so, which makes sense from a business perspective. Cars are no different - if you want certain features, you've got to go up a trim level or two to get them.


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## Zlatko (Mar 24, 2013)

elflord said:


> Well, you are welcome to defend it _as a business decision_. However, Canon's policy of going out of their way to cripple their lower end products does make them less attractive (and difficult to recommend to someone on a tight budget!)



This is where we disagree. The SL1 is no more "crippled" by the lack of AFMA than the 5DIII is "crippled" by the lack of creative filters and scene modes.

Canon has a nice 2,500 word article on their web site on AFMA and how to do it. That's about 5 typewritten pages, single-spaced. Who has time for that? Advanced users and pros ... and no one else.

Tell the typical buyer of the SL1 that they can "micro-adjust the autofocus" and they will say, "I don't need that." Tell the typical buyer of the 5DIII about all of the creative filters and scene modes they're missing on the 5DIII, and they will also say, "I don't need that."

AFMA would be no more of a selling feature on the SL1 than creative filters and scene modes would be on the 5DIII. Some people here would scream in protest if creative filters and scene modes showed up in their 5DIII. That would be a case of more features making a product less attractive.

When Leica introduced a "snapshot" mode on their $6K rangefinder, that feature was greeted with ridicule and scorn by their user base. It was something they would never use.

The lesson for the manufacturer is that you don't include features _just because you can_, or _just because they're cheap_. That approach is as likely to turn away some buyers as it is to attract others. Instead, you choose a package of features that make sense for the intended user and how they're likely to use the product. Camera makers don't just compete to offer more features, they also compete to offer more intelligent, more coherent design.


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## elflord (Mar 24, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> elflord said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you are welcome to defend it _as a business decision_. However, Canon's policy of going out of their way to cripple their lower end products does make them less attractive (and difficult to recommend to someone on a tight budget!)
> ...



Which other features would you suggest removing based on this doctrine ? Support for raw seems like a pretty good candidate -- how many pages does it take to discuss the finer points of that ? Also, what do you think of having a white balance adjustment on two axes (not even a color temperature slider -- a two axis amber/blue and green/magenta control instead). The Rebel also has in-camera correction for CA and vignetting, so it's not too much of a stretch to think that maybe AFMA belongs there. 

So I'm afraid in conclusion I simply don't really buy your theory that Canon chose to remove AFMA to make a more minimal, focused and tightly integrated, easy to understand feature set. (the two axis white balance is the nail in the coffin for that theory -- there is no way the average rebel user understands what that feature does, let alone how to use it effectively)

I have already discussed at length why creative filters on the 5D are not analogous to AFMA on a Rebel body (basically the creative filters need to take up real estate near the top of the decision tree to be useful. 5D users would laugh at them but not really be too upset if they were, like AFMA, buried in a 3-level menu so that they didn't interfere with typical operation)


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## Zlatko (Mar 24, 2013)

elflord said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > elflord said:
> ...



Let me ask you why they chose to omit the cool creative filters and scene modes in the 5DIII? (Hey, I would really like them.  ) Or why they chose to include the green Auto mode on the mode dial of the 5DIII?

It's not just a question of whether something can be added without too much trouble, but whether it belongs on that camera in the first place. Snapshot mode on the Leica rangefinder obviously did not belong. Likewise, it is arguable that two axis white balance adjustment and other features don't belong on a Rebel. Some things we can guess at, but we'll never know. But not knowing doesn't stop gear forum people from complaining about all of the injustices foisted on us by nefarious marketing people infected with this wrong-headed desire to make a profit. 

Another analogy: Wordpress.com offers three price levels for blogs they host, from $0/year to $99/year $300/year. To get the ability to edit CSS on your blog (a "premium" feature), you have to go up from $0/year to $99/year. Of course, you get some other premium features bundled together for that price. And yet how much does it cost them to enable the "edit CSS" feature? This feature lets you make little tweaks, like adjusting the default width of images on your blog. It should be "standard", right? They could easily offer the "edit CSS" feature somewhere where it wouldn't bother anyone who didn't want to use it, and yet they don't. Should we cry about how the basic $0/year blog is needlessly "crippled"? Are they showing "contempt" for their customers, as some people on this forum would argue, or are they just making rational business decisions?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 24, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



Wow so basically unless it makes money it may as not even well be considered photography right?
And maybe if you did get out and try some other types more often you'd realize that the filters you refer to only work for a very few specific types of scenes/scenarios.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 24, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> elflord said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you are welcome to defend it _as a business decision_. However, Canon's policy of going out of their way to cripple their lower end products does make them less attractive (and difficult to recommend to someone on a tight budget!)
> ...



You can add creative filters, with much higher quality, AFTER the fact. You can't refocus all the soft images after the fact from poor AF calibration. One doesn't affect the ability of the body to perform to spec the other one does. So I'd say that one of them is a bigger cripple than the other.


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## rizenphoenix (Mar 24, 2013)

Random Orbits said:


> Act444 said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



I would guess that for many who bought a rebel because out of cost consideration would look to 3rd part lenses to get more bang for their buck. 

That being said most of the rebels I see done on the boardwalk have the kit lens on them.


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## Zlatko (Mar 24, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > elflord said:
> ...



But you can't add the exact _same_ creative filters, or as easily, if you have to process them on your computer. You need time ... and a computer. Oh, and you need to find or buy the creative filters somewhere. More time/money. So omitting them is an obvious loss for 5DIII users. Likewise, you can't fix all of the blurry images after the fact because you lacked the proper scene mode. Again, a huge loss for 5DIII users.  SL1 users can instantly dial in the proper scene mode and get the shot. So why not include those features in a 5DIII? Are they just "crippling" the camera for the few users who would find those features valuable and possibly necessary?

As I've said before, the Rebel cameras do perform to _their_ spec. Your theory that they have poor AF calibration and don't perform to spec is based on a _different_ spec shared by a few people on gear forums. This is like a Ferrari owner complaining that a Kia doesn't perform to spec, especially at the race track.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 24, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Probably stating the obvious, but the vast majority of Rebel/xxxD buyers will never upgrade, per se, nor will they buy lenses beyond the initial kit. They may buy a new camera if theirs breaks, and that will be whatever is the current Rebel/xxxD. For the minority who will upgrade, Canon tries to give them reasons to do so, which makes sense from a business perspective. Cars are no different - if you want certain features, you've got to go up a trim level or two to get them.



+10

To me this is obvious. But 16 pages later, it's not so obvious. The vast majority of rebel users don't even know what a focus point is, much less afma!


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 24, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> elflord said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you are welcome to defend it _as a business decision_. However, Canon's policy of going out of their way to cripple their lower end products does make them less attractive (and difficult to recommend to someone on a tight budget!)
> ...



+100


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 24, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > elflord said:
> ...




We're talking about millions of people who don't even take the time to learn what a focus point is! That's the majority of rebel users.


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## Zlatko (Mar 24, 2013)

Someone please tell this family that their camera is "crippled" and "broken" because it lacks AFMA: 

Canon EOS 100D / Rebel SL1 - A DSLR you'll never want to leave behind


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## elflord (Mar 24, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> Let me ask you why they chose to omit the cool creative filters and scene modes in the 5DIII? (Hey, I would really like them.  ) Or why they chose to include the green Auto mode on the mode dial of the 5DIII?



Putting extraneous items on physical controls is not comparable to having an extra item in a 3 deep menu heirarchy -- since they can't custom build a camera for everyone, they need to make a cost/benefit call which means any item on the physical controls must be carefully thought out. 

It wouldn't surprise me if there was some internal debate about the "green box" on the 5D -- there is after all already a P mode as well as Av and Tv.



> Another analogy: Wordpress.com offers three price levels for blogs they host, from $0/year to $99/year $300/year. To get the ability to edit CSS on your blog (a "premium" feature), you have to go up from $0/year to $99/year. Of course, you get some other premium features bundled together for that price.



You have a lot of analogies but they aren't really relevant. The $0 a year option is obviously a loss leader. Also, the fixed costs of software development are very large but the marginal (per user) cost (of the software development itself) is 0. The close to zero marginal costs are why they can afford to have free riders. Camera manufacturers do have fixed costs but they also have marginal costs. There's not much point in them letting free riders in -- the sales of rebel units are large enough that it would be crazy for the manufacturer to price them at the marginal cost (e.g. as opposed to recuperating fixed costs/making a profit). So I think another place where the analogy falls down is that the $0 a year wordpress customers are free riders while it is probably not the case that this is true of Rebel users.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 24, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Zlatko said:
> ...



Yeah you can find the same only better and who uses a DSLR and doesn't own a computer????
Plus, they are a bonus. MFA is fixing something that is broken, totally different.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 24, 2013)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > elflord said:
> ...



-1000


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## Zlatko (Mar 24, 2013)

elflord said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > Let me ask you why they chose to omit the cool creative filters and scene modes in the 5DIII? (Hey, I would really like them.  ) Or why they chose to include the green Auto mode on the mode dial of the 5DIII?
> ...



Who said anything about extra physical controls? All of those features could be implemented in the menus of the 5DIII. The 5DIII already has "Scene Intelligent Auto" (the Green setting) which sets up its own abbreviated menu, so why "cripple" it with no grainy black & white mode, no toy camera mode, no watercolor mode, and no settings for Sports, Kids or Food? The code for those features is already written and could be added for "free", right? 

This is not about loss leaders/free riders. People paying $0 for their blogs get ads on their site, so they are not necessarily loss leaders/free riders. Now that I look it further, it appears the company offers a variety of upgrade options and increments -- custom domains for $13/year, custom designs for $30/year (lets you change fonts & colors, but not edit CSS), extra storage for $20/year, etc., etc. The point is that if you want just that one extra feature (edit CSS), you have to splurge on their "Pro Bundle" and pay $99/year. And yet the code for that feature is written and costs nothing to ad to any site at any price level. It's just a tab that is switched on or off, based on what you pay. Why do they "cripple" that feature on sites that pay $13/year or $30/year, but not on those that pay $99/year? Are they bad people because of this? Is "crippling" even the appropriate word for this? Perhaps it just makes good business sense. 

Seems analogous to me: more expensive cameras are the analogous "Pro Bundle".


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## Zlatko (Mar 24, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



Perhaps the same people who use the direct Print button on the 5D? There are people who have expensive cameras but don't do any photo editing on a computer. They don't have the software, or don't know how to use it, or don't have the time, or don't bring their computer to every place where they bring their camera. Why make them suffer with "crippled" cameras, especially when they paid for more than the basic model? Why not just give them _every_ creative filter and _every_ scene mode on any camera they might buy?

But wait ... are you really arguing *against* including certain features on advanced cameras? If so, you might want to apply for an executive position at a camera company. That's where they're always deciding how to "cripple" cameras and leave features out.


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## awinphoto (Mar 24, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



You know how silly you are sounding? I've shot with the 10d all the way to 7d and 5d's. all the prior cameras had even less DR than the 5d3. I've shot landscape, portraits, weddings, aviation, macro, etc. I know what I want and how to get it and I don't blame my gear. I know how to get what I want with what I have, and that used to not be much. I couldn't care less how much DR a camera has, as long as I can get what I want


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## elflord (Mar 25, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> Who said anything about extra physical controls? All of those features could be implemented in the menus of the 5DIII. The 5DIII already has "Scene Intelligent Auto" (the Green setting)



My point is that the green box itself is a top level item (it takes a spot on the mode dial, at least on the 5DII).

Putting the art filters inside any menu, which requires a few steps of navigation to reach and also generally requires taking ones eye from the viewfinder, renders them considerably less useful (aside from the fact that most users of this body consider such features useless in general this would make them a little bit more useless). 

As long as they are buried inside a menu, those features wouldn't actually be harmful. I'm going out on a limb here, but my guess is that there haven't been a lot of requests for these features from 5D users. Your post is the first I've heard of this. 



> This is not about loss leaders/free riders. People paying $0 for their blogs get ads on their site, so they are not necessarily loss leaders/free riders.



You seem to be trying really hard to not understand here. The marginal software development cost of adding users to a software product is 0. Therefore the economics of developing software are completely different to those of developing camera bodies. 

Far from providing any illumination, your analogy is off base and amounts to a willful obfuscation of an issue that you are apparently unwilling or unable to address in a more forthright manner.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 25, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> You know how silly you are sounding? I've shot with the 10d all the way to 7d and 5d's. all the prior cameras had even less DR than the 5d3. I've shot landscape, portraits, weddings, aviation, macro, etc. I know what I want and how to get it and I don't blame my gear. I know how to get what I want with what I have, and that used to not be much. I couldn't care less how much DR a camera has, as long as I can get what I want



goody for you, not everyone can get all the DR they need for all types of shots, if you never shoot that fine but don't pretend that is the case for everyone


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## fonts (Mar 25, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> M.ST said:
> 
> 
> > We need a 7D mark II with a cf card slot, a 5D Mark IV or higher with a cf card slot and a lot of lens replacements or new lenses.
> ...



Yes thank you! What is wrong with people. Why do they want CF? That sh*t is outdated. SD Cards which are cheaper and more durable are getting faster and faster, have more interest in that. I would think that would be in everyones minds especially how people are going over "innovation".


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## Zlatko (Mar 25, 2013)

elflord said:


> Zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > Who said anything about extra physical controls? All of those features could be implemented in the menus of the 5DIII. The 5DIII already has "Scene Intelligent Auto" (the Green setting)
> ...



As the 5DIII already has green box setting, and that setting already activates its own abbreviated version of the camera's standard menus (fewer tabs, fewer options), the creative filters and scene modes could easily reside there and still be useful. Set the camera to green box, hit the menu button, select the filters tab, choose your filter. Or do it via the Q button. 

But your guess is that creative filters and scene modes are not included because most users of this body consider such features useless in general. Your guess is that there haven't been a lot of requests for these features from 5D users. _I believe your guess is absolutely correct._ Note that your guess doesn't rely on the popular "cripple the camera" theory.

I believe your guess also correctly explains exactly why AFMA is not included on the new Rebel SL1: useless to most users, not a lot of requests for it. So the manufacturer makes the most sensible decision.

You're avoiding the question about whether the useful "edit CSS" feature should be offered to all WordPress.com customers, regardless of how much they pay, or only with the $99/year Pro Bundle. Is it right to "cripple" that feature on all sites that don't purchase the Pro Bundle? We've heard from some people in this thread that the cost of adding AFMA to any camera is zero; -- it's just software already written for other cameras, so the cost of adding it to any Rebel is zero. I'm not sure that's true, but if it is true, then the economics are the same. In either case, the feature is useful to s_o_me buyers and it's a zero cost add-on for the company, but buyers have to spend more to get it. Just as with cameras, they have to buy the more advanced model just to get that one feature which could have been included in the most basic model. Good, bad, shocking?


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## fonts (Mar 25, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > You know how silly you are sounding? I've shot with the 10d all the way to 7d and 5d's. all the prior cameras had even less DR than the 5d3. I've shot landscape, portraits, weddings, aviation, macro, etc. I know what I want and how to get it and I don't blame my gear. I know how to get what I want with what I have, and that used to not be much. I couldn't care less how much DR a camera has, as long as I can get what I want
> ...



Sigh..give it time. I don't know why people don't get that there isn't ONE company that has the best of everything in their product for that industry. Seriously, if you REALLY NEED the DR then just get Nikon bodies. You should already know this. It's not me being an asshole but research what you want before investing. Stop blaming Canon for not dedicating their R&D into something they never promised. If you look at any sporting event, you will see Canon dominating the floor, why? Because Canon produces the best High ISO and FPS DSLR out there. Take that into consideration when you ask for more DR; its not their main objective. 

Seriously be realistic. Every manufacture has their benefits and weakness. If you obviously need the DR then again get the gear that is right for YOU. Canon will make higher DR cameras, but just cause it's not NOW doesn't mean they suck. 

Also again, the AFMA arguement needs to stop. It's not like its only 50% of Rebel users are beginners, its a massive amount which can be estimated to 80%. LEAVE IT BE. Know that the Rebel line is not targeting Advanced users. Yes I wouldn't mind if they did add it, but it doesn't make it a BAD camera because it doesn't have it. 

To add to that, it's not FIXING anything BROKEN. Being within specs is a choice, a choice that benefits us the consumers. If you really wanted everything perfectly aligned to begin with then trust me, forum sites would be down for week with threads yelling at Canon for raising the price by an insane amount. So stop with this battle, learn to pick your fights, its not broken, its how its meant to be.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 25, 2013)

rizenphoenix said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > Act444 said:
> ...



This is dead on.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 25, 2013)

fonts said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



+1000


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## EchoLocation (Mar 25, 2013)

I think the main reason the creative filters were added to the new rebels is that they literally had zero upgrades to the bodies at all worth mentioning in the press release.Thus, this was a cheap and easy way to spruce up the spec/features list, reviews and conversations with something new, instead of literally adding nothing. lol.
Look at this thread, it has degenerated from an utter trashing of the new releases to a conversation about why these new "features" weren't included on the 5DIII.
These new features are for the M 4/3rd, Instagram, hipster crowd, and just as a filler to rearrange the list of specs.


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## aznable (Mar 25, 2013)

EchoLocation said:


> I think the main reason the creative filters were added to the new rebels is that they literally had zero upgrades to the bodies at all worth mentioning in the press release.



from 550d to 650d rebel's line had a great jump in AF features (borrowing a quite good AF from XXD line) and in fps department...the 700D got nothing particular.

the creative filters are a good thing for beginners and casual shooters


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## GMCPhotographics (Mar 25, 2013)

EchoLocation said:


> I think the main reason the creative filters were added to the new rebels is that they literally had zero upgrades to the bodies at all worth mentioning in the press release.Thus, this was a cheap and easy way to spruce up the spec/features list, reviews and conversations with something new, instead of literally adding nothing. lol.
> Look at this thread, it has degenerated from an utter trashing of the new releases to a conversation about why these new "features" weren't included on the 5DIII.
> These new features are for the M 4/3rd, Instagram, hipster crowd, and just as a filler to rearrange the list of specs.



I think most of the DSLR innovation is now done. So we get very simular new models with very simular specs. The odd new tweek sometimes does shake things up. The 40D brought live view...many said it was a gimmic but it's transformed most of the way landscapers work and paved the way for movie mode.
the 5DIII brought a near silent mode (which really works) and it's been a game changer for many genres, especially Wedding work with grumpy registras. So while MP's haven't increased much and many of the AF arrays have stayed the same for a lot of the Canon product range, innovation is creeping in from different areas and isn't so obvious on paper. Grab hold of a 300D and then take a 650D, the difference of only a few years is huge. The pace of sensor and AF array improvements has now slowed to almost static, but the rest of the camera is still open for a lot more improvements.
I don't think Canon will ever put a pro AF system in any camera which isn't in it's pro portfolio. So lets get real here, if you want a 5DIII or 1Dx Spec then that's not going to ever happen in a XXXD camera. But the ergo and ui differences do get filtered down and up stream.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 25, 2013)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I think most of the DSLR innovation is now done.



Are you applying for a job as a Canon exec :-> ? ...

There's no end of features and ideas, for software just look at everything Magic Lantern has to offer (and the things they cannot do due to Canon fw constraints). How about an switchable ovf/evf with all the information it could offer (focus peaking for mf in the vf)? How about really smart af tracking across the whole frame ("Please track the player with the number 8", "Please always automatically focus the eyes")? How about 1/500 x-sync like on the original 1d?

roblem is, Canon is driven by product differentiation, max. profit (lowest cost & highest prices) and they are so conservative they probably don't think about real innovations, even not with a cpu as fast as their digic5 (or 6).


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## Pixelsign (Mar 25, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> problem is, Canon is driven by product differentiation, max. profit (lowest cost & highest prices) and they are so conservative they probably don't think about real innovations, even not with a cpu as fast as their digic5 (or 6).



sign


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## baervan (Mar 25, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > I think most of the DSLR innovation is now done.
> ...



i might be wrong, but every company is driven by those assumptions. Nikon has not the upper hand in terms of sales for the entry level nor probably the uber-pro (D4 vs 1DX), so in order to steal Canon's share they offer a more extensive set of features with their cameras. As long as Canon has the upper hand they will never make a revolutionary product, only incremental changes. Sorry for being captain obvious.

Also I'm surprised how long this conversation has been going, there is a new entry-level model every year that will entice only the beginners that dont have a camera yet. There haven't been any changes with the 650D but companies that have the sales upper hand do that (iphone 4 and 4s anyone? im sure there are people here who had both). Nobody here is gonna buy the 700D unless as backup body, if you want 7D features in a backup body you know what to buy.


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## EchoLocation (Mar 25, 2013)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I think most of the DSLR innovation is now done. So we get very simular new models with very simular specs.
> I don't think Canon will ever put a pro AF system in any camera which isn't in it's pro portfolio. So lets get real here, if you want a 5DIII or 1Dx Spec then that's not going to ever happen in a XXXD camera.


Do you work for Canon? Why are people so quick to say that today's cameras don't need to get any better, or we shouldn't expect more, or they cant cost less?
Maybe it won't be in a Canon XXXD body, but it may be in a Sony Mirrorless or Fuji camera real soon(maybe even a Nikon, check the AF on the D5200.) 
Maybe you are happy with paying 3000 dollars for a huge DSLR, but many people aren't. Canon wants us to think like you, but other companies who aren't on top are hoping other people still want more, which I do.
If Canon continues to think that no one wants better specs at a lower price and everyone is happy with the size, price and features of the current offerings, then there will be a long, long fall from the top. 
Sure, the best of the best cameras will always be expensive, but I see no reason why a camera with 5DIII specs cant cost 1000 bucks in 5-10 years.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 25, 2013)

EchoLocation said:


> Sure, the best of the best cameras will always be expensive, but I see no reason why a camera with 5DIII specs cant cost 1000 bucks in 5-10 years.



It certainly will, well, actually in 10y nobody will want to use the 5d3 as a doorstopper (and all other current dlsrs).

As for "expensive" it really is about what you pay for - yes, but only for bleeding edge hardware that is really expensive to produce because new facilities and r&d want to be paid, too. A large "premium" and "early adopter's" fee will probably also stay as long as we have capitalism (predictions are pretty good atm). 

But as for software - the xxxd or maybe xxd line would be a perfect place to implement new features, but Canon only targets amateurs but not innovators, they very seldom update their fw after release. If they would hire the main Magic Lantern dev they'd have a stellar fw in a year's time that blows every other dslr out of the water - but they don't want to because they want to sell their top gear. And top gear is conservative by default, because as a pro you want 110% tried and stable equipment.


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## elflord (Mar 26, 2013)

Zlatko said:


> I believe your guess also correctly explains exactly why AFMA is not included on the new Rebel SL1: useless to most users, not a lot of requests for it. So the manufacturer makes the most sensible decision.



We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think it's at least as easy to understand and useful to the Rebel user base as 2-axis white balance! 



> You're avoiding the question about whether the useful "edit CSS" feature should be offered to all WordPress.com customers,



Thought the question is not terribly relevant here, I did address it though maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. Yes, of course the marginal cost of enabling that feature for the remainder of the user base is either zero or very close to zero. 

In software, marginal costs of expanding or upgrading the user base are nearly always close to zero, but you will always lose if you price near or at marginal costs (because marginal costs are zero or close to zero whereas fixed costs are very high). 

So the answer to your question which is, essentially, "why don't software vendors price at marginal costs" is:

"because marginal costs are dwarfed by fixed costs. If they price at or near marginal costs they don't recuperate their fixed costs). 

Also, in this particular case (wordpress), it is most likely that the non-paying users if not free riders are not the primary source of profits (actually IMHO they are pretty close to free riders). This is not the way it is with cameras, where (a) the marginal costs are not at all negligible, and (b) the cheaper models are a major (perhaps primary) source of revenue that the manufacturer can use to offset fixed costs.


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## Sella174 (Mar 26, 2013)

The lack of "Kelvin" WB setting makes that I'm not even considering this camera any further.


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## whatta (Mar 26, 2013)

there is a reason why I still did not change the 400d, even though I've been very keen for a while. After waiting so long, I would not invest money into a very new body but very old tech in it 

I was not expecting much, but still even surpised with this release..

btw the new sigma 30/1.4 can do AFMA instead of the body!!!!


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## sandymandy (Mar 26, 2013)

The recent cameras are better than your 400D and its noticeable in image quality also. But why sad u are still using your 400D? I think its awesome u still get along with that camera where many other people already threw it away. It seems really nice to me you dont rely on technique but rather your photo skills


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## paul13walnut5 (Mar 26, 2013)

whatta said:


> there is a reason why I still did not change the 400d, even though I've been very keen for a while. After waiting so long, I would not invest money into a very new body but very old tech in it
> 
> I was not expecting much, but still even surpised with this release..
> 
> btw the new sigma 30/1.4 can do AFMA instead of the body!!!!



Point of sheer bloody minded pedantry, there is no new 30mm f1.4. It's a 35mm f1.4 and it's full frame not DC It's an entirely new lens, not a new version. Looks quite nice too, but the USB dock (required for calibration) isn't provided with lens, and my experience of the 30mm f1.4 DC lends me to believe that the lens will need calibration.

I had a 400D which I would probably still be using were it not for video. No shame in that at all.


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## whatta (Mar 26, 2013)

sandymandy said:


> The recent cameras are better than your 400D and its noticeable in image quality also. But why sad u are still using your 400D? I think its awesome u still get along with that camera where many other people already threw it away. It seems really nice to me you dont rely on technique but rather your photo skills


I borrowed a 650d and to be honest I was not convinced. Yes it is better, but far not as better as what I would expect that many generations and years later.

thanks btw


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## whatta (Mar 26, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> whatta said:
> 
> 
> > there is a reason why I still did not change the 400d, even though I've been very keen for a while. After waiting so long, I would not invest money into a very new body but very old tech in it
> ...


excuse me? 

"Announced Jan 29, 2013 The Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC HSM lens is a redesigned version of Sigma's popular 30mm F1.4 prime. On APS-C cameras this lens covers an effective focal length of approximately 45mm, making it a very useful standard focal length. The new lens has an optical configurations of nine elements in eight groups, including a double-aspheric element, with rounded aperture blades for attractive blur in out of focus areas. The new 30mm F1.4 is also compatible with Sigma’s new USB Dock, which will enable firmware updates and focusing adjustments."

http://www.dpreview.com/products/Sigma/lenses/sigma_a_30_1p4


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## redcap (Mar 26, 2013)

@paul13walnut5
There is a new Sigma 30/1.4 for crop with a USB dock!
http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/01/sigma-announces-new-30-f1-4-for-aps-c/


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## awinphoto (Mar 26, 2013)

not bad guys... 19 pages and going strong on 1 or 2 features missed on an entry level rebel... wow... slow news week I take it.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 26, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> not bad guys... 19 pages and going strong on 1 or 2 features missed on an entry level rebel... wow... slow news week I take it.



Imho this thread reflects a recently wider spread dissatisfaction with certain Canon product decision, i.e. the "value" as in new/overall features vs. price.

The Rebel is just a welcome issue for discussion, and I see it in conjunction with the 6d release (want an af assist beam (Nikon d600 has it built-in)? Get a €500 flash! Want to get the flash off the hotshoe? Get a €300 controller! Still want af assist? Get a second flash for €500 instead...).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 27, 2013)

fonts said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



If you don't speak up about it ahead of time then it will be too late. If none of us talks about DR and then the 5D4 comes around has the same old 10-15 year old sensor tech it'll be kinda too late then no? Some of us would rather get the DR in a Canon system and rather not end up having to switch. Although if the next 5D4/7D2 gen is still lacking then as much as I don't want to I may finally do that. And yes they do need a good waking up from their user base before it's too late, you should've heard the Canon bigwig at the euro show a few years ago bragging about how they were infinitely far ahead of the competition and saw no need to do anything as the king can sit on the hill and do nothing and thrive. yeah....






> Also again, the AFMA arguement needs to stop. It's not like its only 50% of Rebel users are beginners, its a massive amount which can be estimated to 80%. LEAVE IT BE. Know that the Rebel line is not targeting Advanced users. Yes I wouldn't mind if they did add it, but it doesn't make it a BAD camera because it doesn't have it.



It's a sad thing that a free features gets crippled out of various bodies by marketing.



> To add to that, it's not FIXING anything BROKEN. Being within specs is a choice, a choice that benefits us the consumers. If you really wanted everything perfectly aligned to begin with then trust me, forum sites would be down for week with threads yelling at Canon for raising the price by an insane amount. So stop with this battle, learn to pick your fights, its not broken, its how its meant to be.



Yeah well if you body is a +1 and you lenses are all -1 to +1 maybe not, if you body is +8 and your lenses are -8 to +15 then it's kinda broken. And they crippled it out of the 40D and 60D too. And you say go send your stuff in, yeah that is fun and miss 2 weeks of shooting or more and, if they are too busy, maybe they say six weeks and you miss major expeditions and events?
Nobody is saying to toss 5D3 AF into the Rebel or to give it 10fps or silent shutter or anything. Just give them ALL, across the entire line, MFA so they can all work to the spec of each line (which is lower, even when perfectly calibrated for the lowest vs the highest) and give it at least one real feature better than the previous model instead of wasting all those resources re-badging an old model. If they don't want to get sales eaten by iphones and such why not have tossed the WIFI stuff into it?


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## Chuck Alaimo (Mar 27, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> fonts said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



I'll agree with one thing you said there, they should toss in the wifi, that would be a total hit for the crowd low end rebels are made for. 

As to much of the rest, where to begin???

How about with this. A never ending discussion on a rumor site will not get you that change. Communicate with canon. Of course, that may not get you anywhere because most people buying rebels will shoot with the kit lens and on green box auto everything mode. Again, most don't even know what a focus point is, much less know when you may need to use it. 

You mention the 5d series and DR and how if we don't endlessly debate it the next 5d will have the same sensor. I again say, bring the issue to canon. The 5d3 is exactly what the bulk of 5d2 users wanted, better low light, better AF, better build, expanded ISO range. We isn't demand 30+ MP's until Nikon announced the d800. And as we know, canon will have a big mp body in 2014. 

As to the last point, what are you shooting that's so important you can't send body and lens in for calibration? Rent some equipment if its that important.


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## Malte_P (Mar 27, 2013)

kraats said:


> How about you just get a camera and go out and shoot. Taking nice pics is not about the best tech ......



your at the wrong forum i think.

this is a forum focused on new technology you know? 
so telling people to NOT talk about technology is a bit paradox.


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## paul13walnut5 (Mar 28, 2013)

whatta said:


> excuse me?



I stand corrected.

Apologies!


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## Marsu42 (Mar 28, 2013)

Malte_P said:


> kraats said:
> 
> 
> > How about you just get a camera and go out and shoot. Taking nice pics is not about the best tech ......
> ...



+1 - this is one of the thought-terminating clichés that I don't like (We all do know it's about shooting), the other is "if you don't like the prices go get a better job". It is indeed arguable how much 100% crop sharpness matters, but other than that each photog has to decide for himself how & what he shoots and much weight is put into the newest gear.


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## paul13walnut5 (Mar 28, 2013)

It's like DxO.

Their lab results don't stop me taking pictures I'm happy with, or shooting video my clients are happy with.

But then, it is good to know if there are major problems in tech land. My experience is that Canon aren't going to tell you (banged my head against wall with mass CCD failure, 7D CF failure) unless they really have a gun at their heads.

If it was all about making pictures and tech didn't matter we'd be as well drawing with stones on a cave wall.

Yeah, 6Mp probably was good enough.

For me coming from film, I can't ever see me using ISO 102'500. Not in the DNA.

Don't need AF for video.

But then it's not all about me, or about the folk who don't want to talk tech. On a tech forum.


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## Don Haines (Mar 29, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> If it was all about making pictures and tech didn't matter we'd be as well drawing with stones on a cave wall.



Yes, but even in caveman days there was new technology....


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## paul13walnut5 (Apr 1, 2013)

I have a 7d and a 600d, and both are working as well as when I bought them, which was well.

I see no reason at all to upgrade for now, which gives me more money for glass, or the other parts of the equation.

Even had the 700 been something extra special I probably would be quite happy to keep using what I'm using.

My next purchases are hopefully going to be a c100 and an m, as both will give me a practical advantage over what I currently use for given situations (the c100 will be a work purchase, so not quite a luxury buy)

Canon needn't have launched the 700 or 650 in my opinion.

The 100 seems to be aimed squarly at the gh2 or gh3 type market. 

And the good news for those with older cameras is that the 60d, 600d and 650d may well drop in price.


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## insanitybeard (Apr 2, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> But then, it is good to know if there are major problems in tech land. My experience is that Canon aren't going to tell you (banged my head against wall with mass CCD failure, 7D CF failure) unless they really have a gun at their heads.



Out of interest, what is the 7D compact flash issue you mention?


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