# Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 22, 2015)

```
<p>Canon USA Inc. has filed suit against Get It Digital LLC/AllNewShop on claims of trademark violation from the sale of grey market items over ebay.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.photographybay.com/2015/11/22/canon-is-suing-get-it-digital-and-others-to-stop-gray-market-dslr-sales/" target="_blank">Photography Bay</a> was the first to post the suit, which you <a href="https://dockets.justia.com/docket/new-york/nyedce/2:2015cv06019/376749" target="_blank">can find various places online</a>.</p>
<p>Canon USA Inc. has files two lawsuits, one against Get It Digital LLC & All New Shop LLC, which Canon claims (and we know) are the same company.</p>
<p>The second suit is against F&E Trading LLC, which is the company behind Big Value, Inc., Electronics Valley, Electronics Basket, DavisMax, 6th Ave & Netsales.</p>
<p>The complaints against these companies are as follows as broken down by Photography Bay:</p>
<ul>
<li>Using counterfeit serial numbers on grey market Canon products</li>
<li>Lack of enforceable warranties or inferior warranty coverage</li>
<li>Packaging that does not accurately describe the products contained therein</li>
<li>The inclusion of cheap photocopies of product operating manuals, as opposed to genuine manuals that accompany genuine Canon cameras</li>
<li>Power supplies and accessories that are counterfeit, manufactured by third parties and/or not compliant with applicable laws, regulations and certifications</li>
</ul>
<p>We’re not sure what to make of all of this, as we’ve been advertising these grey market deals since Canon USA instituted MMAP pricing to all the major authorized retailers in the United States. We’ve had very few complaints over the years, most of which were about slow shipping and poor customer service. We stopped advertising for Big Value Inc a while ago, after they botched a big EOS 5D Mark III sale and a lot of people had to get refunds and it was a giant pain for customers. We’ve had less than 5 complaints about Get It Digital and All New Shop over the years and we’ll continue to advertise their deals if there are any this week.</p>
<p>We don’t support MAP pricing and hope Canon USA changes their policy and lets retailers sell products the way they want to. It’s better for consumers in the end.</p>
<p>It’s also going to be interesting to see what happens this week as far as Black Friday sales go, we’re seeing some evidence of authorized dealers getting instant rebates from Canon USA and lowering prices.</p>
<p>You can read more over at <a href="http://www.photographybay.com/2015/11/22/canon-is-suing-get-it-digital-and-others-to-stop-gray-market-dslr-sales/" target="_blank">Photography Bay</a>.</p>
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## AvTvM (Nov 22, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Canon may have legal claims to sue but no moralic right whatsoever. MMAP is unethical corporate behaviour. I hope their law suits will backfire in the worst possible way .. Canon not only losing the suits, but being ordered to end their unethical practices against purchasers of Canon products. Same goes for Nikon, of course. In my country Nikon was just recently fined by the anti-cartel court for illegal price rigging behaviour, ripping off consumers. Would not be surprised if Canon comes under scrutiny next.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 22, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



AvTvM said:


> Canon may have legal claims to sue but no moralic right whatsoever. MMAP is unethical corporate behaviour. I hope their law suits will backfire in the worst possible way .. Canon not only losing the suits, but being ordered to end their unethical practices against purchasers of Canon products. Same goes for Nikon, of course. In my country Nikon was just recently fined by the anti-cartel court for illegal price rigging behaviour, ripping off consumers. Would not be surprised if Canon comes under scrutiny next.



You're absolutely correct. Canon USA created this problem.


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## Big_Ant_TV_Media (Nov 22, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

HOW DO U KNOW IF U HAVE FAKE SERIAL # IF NOT CAMERA UNIT?
do they have a site that tell u when ya camera was made or etc


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## tolusina (Nov 22, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Item 1;
Re-read that as a seller assigned serial number.
So what?
How is that Canon's concern?


Item 2;
Buyer beware, or, purchase an extended warrant from a reputable underwriter.
Again, how is that Canon's concern?


Item 3;
Really Canon?
Irrelevant, petty.


Item 4;
Canon does have copyrights on their manuals, the only item on the list with legs.


The gray marketers are dunderheads to leave themselves open here when genuine Canon manuals are readily available for legitimate and legal download.


Item 5;
So what?
- - -
Canon, if you want to close the gray market, eliminate price discrepancies across various worldwide market places.
Canon, stop whining when you sell cheaper in one place and enterprising individuals buy at that price for re-sale elsewhere.
Establish your wholesale prices and leave the retail market alone.
Or, retail exclusively through a corporate outlet.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 22, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Canon Rumors said:


> Lack of enforceable warranties or inferior warranty coverage



This is true only if Canon USA chooses to make it true by denying warranty service to gray market items. I wonder if they'll start doing so as part of this? I'd be a bit concerned if I'd bought gray market recently.


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## HighLowISO (Nov 22, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I may have missed a chance to get that 5Ds at a more reasonable price.

Why would they choose to replace the serial numbers? Is that just to hide the origin of these cameras? Someone is suppling the cameras to these sellers. I presume they get the kits complete also, so I find it strange they would replace pieces. I guess they or others could sell sell the originals separately at a higher price?

It would be interesting to know where all these Grey market cameras are coming from. Seems like the heart of the problem is in Japan?

I'm also against MMAP, so I don't have too much sympothy for Canon in this case. I'm guessing Canon USA though must have got as lot of pressure from the big US dealers to address this issue especially since they were so effective at undercutting the price of the top selling items, not to mention the new launch of the 5Ds. 

Yes as stated this all stems from Canon USA and their policy changes from years back as the Internet started to become a force in retail sales.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 22, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

A few sellers have received cameras with labels placed over the original Canon label which have a fake serial number. They have been pretty obvious to anyone looking at them. You can check the serial number by looking at EXIF data and compare it with the label. They should match, if not, something is wrong.

Canon or some purchasers have to show damages. I'd expect that Canon has spent a lot of $$ repairing the Cameras, so that could be damage. The non compliant chargers and cords that do not meet safety laws should be dealt with by the FTC. I doubt if the complaint about copies of the manual would stand up, they are not selling manuals, just replacing them with one in English.

It sounds like the gray market sales is hurting Canon. As noted, its Canon's fault for selling cameras for such a low price overseas (or high price in North America). Graymarket sellers can buy them, import them, pay ebay and paypal fees, shipping and losses from defective cameras, and still make a decent profit.

Those who are my age may remember when the US customs seized graymarket cameras or other expensive products that could be bought by mail order from Hong Kong for 25% less. The Hong Kong sellers removed the logos or painted them out, and shipped just the bare camera (and lenses). Customs had no problem with that, since you could not identify the brand. The sellers also mailed any removed logos, owners manuals, etc separately. That was ok with customs since there was no product involved. I still remember the dealer in Hong Kong named T K Wood. I find nothing online, so the business is gone or changed names.


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## Eagle Eye (Nov 22, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



tolusina said:


> Item 1;
> Re-read that as a seller assigned serial number.
> So what?
> How is that Canon's concern?
> ...



Not sure where you went to law school, but you must have slept through Property. All five claims have merit in a trademark suit. The proximity to the holiday shopping season is not a surprise; I suspect this will be followed up this week with a Rule 65 motion for a temporary restraining order, immediately barring the defendants from selling Canon products related to the lawsuit.


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## HighLowISO (Nov 22, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

This might also be timed to be sure that they halt or slow down these sales as they release the new 1DX and possibly some other bodies.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I wish the US Supreme Court hadn't ruled in favor of MMAP enforcement. And I'm sure some of the big retailers feel the same.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Eagle Eye said:


> tolusina said:
> 
> 
> > Item 1;
> ...



If you read the article, a request for restraining order is what was filed. 

"Because Canon USA believes that the continued practice of selling gray market cameras and other products would continue to violate its trademark rights, *Canon is asking the federal court to issue an injunction that orders each of these companies to cease all sales of gray market Canon products.
*
Additionally, Canon USA is going after all of their profits for gray market Canon products sold by these companies, as well as seeking damages incurred by Canon USA, which could include servicing gray market products and other measures Canon USA has taken in response dealing with the defendants’ gray market camera sales. Finally, is also seeking attorneys’ fees and costs associated with filing these lawsuits."



I doubt that it will be granted, the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of gray market importers a couple of times now, so its just trying to slow gray market sales during the holidays. The First Sale Doctrine will be argued, and since its not clear cut at all, I'm doubtful that Canon will get a injunction. They are trying to use their huge legal budget to overwhelm a smaller business.

Their example of a power cord that is not UL approved is another Red Herring. There is no law requiring UL approval of electrical products. OSHA requires certified products, so a non safety certified product can't be used legally in a workplace.

As to import of gray market, its legal. The product was made and trademark was used with permission of Canon. That is also a Red Herring, Canon can use their own trademarks on a product. 

*The counterfeited label is a trademark issue,* it was likely applied in China by a wholesaler, and only a few of these got thru, but no one knows for sure. The reseller can likely screen for these more closely, but may have to pay up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

"The 2008 Omega v. Costco case involved this exact unresolved issue, where the defendant Costco obtained authentic Omega watches, which feature a copyrighted design on the back of the watches, through the gray market and resold them in its stores in the US. Omega manufactured these watches outside the US and did not authorize their importation into the US. Based on the Quality King case, the 9th Circuit held that "application of first-sale doctrine to foreign-made copies would impermissibly apply" the Copyright Act extraterritorially. However, the court stated that first-sale doctrine might still apply to a foreign manufactured copy if it was imported "with the authority of the U.S. copyright owner." The Supreme Court granted certiorari to Omega v. Costco, and affirmed 4-4. However, as an evenly split decision, it set precedent only in the 9th Circuit, not nationwide.[10]"

"However, in Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons, Inc.,[11] in 2013, the United States Supreme Court held in a 6-3 decision that the first-sale doctrine applies to goods manufactured abroad with the copyright owner's permission and then imported into the US. The case involved a plaintiff who imported Asian editions of textbooks that had been manufactured abroad with the publisher-plaintiff's permission. The defendant, without permission from the publisher, imported the textbooks and resold on eBay. The Supreme Court's holding severely limits the ability of copyright holders to charge vastly different prices in different markets due to ease of arbitrage.[citation needed] The decision does remove incentives to US manufacturers to shift the manufacturing abroad to attempt to circumvent the first-sale doctrine altogether.[citation needed]"


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## chauncey (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I realize the word "addiction" is rather harsh but, due to the fact that I'm lens addicted to Canon and that jumping ship would be 
financially futile, it does not preclude me from thinking that Canon business practices, from a consumer"s perspective, shall I say, suck.

They should model their sales practices more like Honda/Sony/whoever.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



chauncey said:


> I realize the word "addiction" is rather harsh but, due to the fact that I'm lens addicted to Canon and that jumping ship would be
> financially futile, it does not preclude me from thinking that Canon business practices, from a consumer"s perspective, shall I say, suck.
> 
> They should model their sales practices more like Honda/Sony/whoever.



But ... Canon is starting to model their practices after Sony and Nikon, in fact, both are much stricter than Canon about gray market. Nikon will not repair a gray market camera even if you pay, and will not sell parts to third party repair shops either. Sony is very strict about charging full MSRP, and clamps down hard on any gray market or discounts.


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## unfocused (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Canon Rumors said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Canon may have legal claims to sue but no moralic right whatsoever. MMAP is unethical corporate behaviour. I hope their law suits will backfire in the worst possible way .. Canon not only losing the suits, but being ordered to end their unethical practices against purchasers of Canon products. Same goes for Nikon, of course. In my country Nikon was just recently fined by the anti-cartel court for illegal price rigging behaviour, ripping off consumers. Would not be surprised if Canon comes under scrutiny next.
> ...



Oh please! Give me a break. How is MAP pricing unethical? It's not unique to either Canon nor the camera business. It's simply a way for manufacturers to protect their authorized dealer base. You may not like it, but don't pretend it is somehow unethical. 

And, Canon Rumors Guy, it's a bit hypocritical for you, since you take money from these grey market advertisers, to pass judgment on this lawsuit.



I'll leave it for the courts to sort it out. I'd suggest all the other bar stool lawyers on this site do the same.

I am concerned about the allegation the sellers are replacing the serial number plates. If so, it seems like that might be a criminal matter (fraud). 

I do find it interesting that Canon is claiming that the grey market dealers are costing them money because Canon voluntarily provides warranty and repair service on these products. The obvious solution there is simply not to offer repair for these products. That would probably shut down the grey market sellers rather quickly. 

And, it also seems that if Canon Asia (or whatever they are called) simply refused to sell to any dealers in Asia caught shipping product overseas, it could also solve the problem. 

I do wonder what the motivation is for seeking a court-ordered solution, when they have the ability to address the problem more effectively in other ways. I wonder if they simply want to get the rules regarding MAP better defined, so they can tell their dealers that they took it to court.

It will be interesting to watch.


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## Orangutan (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Eagle Eye said:


> Not sure where you went to law school, but you must have slept through Property. All five claims have merit in a trademark suit.



Eagle Eye: I won't question your knowledge of U.S. law, I just think you should be aware that when non-lawyers look at these cases we don't look for fact-patterns and precedent to support our position at trial. Rather, we often first consider whether the law itself seems appropriate, then judge (our very limited knowledge of) the facts by that standard, instead of the existing legal standard. In a court this would be laughable; outside the court it's entirely legitimate. Since I'm not a direct party to this case, the results of trial and appeal are more important to me for what they say about the existing law. In a more important case, this might prompt me to contact my legislators to urge them to change what I perceive to be a bad law.

From my perspective, your legal opinion is important and welcome here; however, remember that laws do change over time, and citizen dissatisfaction is an important motive for those changes.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



unfocused said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



How is it hypocritical?

I live in the marketplace, it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I want the end of MMAP pricing, which will lead to the end of the grey market economy as it currently operates.


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## Orangutan (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



unfocused said:


> Oh please! Give me a break. How is MAP pricing unethical? ... It's simply a way for manufacturers to protect their authorized dealer base.


You just answered your own question: it interferes with a free market in camera equipment. If I buy a camera at any price it's now mine, and I should be able to resell it at any price. Coercive contracts that limit a buyer's sales options are...um...certainly in the gray of market economics.



> And, Canon Rumors Guy, it's a bit hypocritical for you, since you take money from these grey market advertisers, to pass judgment on this lawsuit.



He's been open about his position, what's the problem?



> I am concerned about the allegation the sellers are replacing the serial number plates. If so, it seems like that might be a criminal matter (fraud).


This is a legitimate problem, if true. It's both defrauding the customer and possibly also hurting Canon's reputation.



> I do wonder what the motivation is for seeking a court-ordered solution, when they have the ability to address the problem more effectively in other ways.


Leverage. Not all lawsuits are filed with the expectation of reaching a verdict.


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## Taylorpilot (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I don't really have a problem with MAP pricing. It keeps somebody from giving away cameras at $10 profit just for the fun of it, putting all the other real businesses under. I think as a contract between two private companies, they should be able to create basic terms for selling their products. Almost all retail outlets have guidelines that they have to sale their products through. Most legit stores can't sale them for the price that the ebay stores do, and stay in business, so they suffer.


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## unfocused (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Canon Rumors said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



I prefer the more transparent, thoughtful and straightforward approach of CanonPriceWatch http://www.canonpricewatch.com/blog/2015/11/getitdigital-bigvalueinc-sued-by-canon-usa-inc-over-grey-market/ which clearly labeled their position and explained it, as opposed to simply making a drive by comment in the thread. 

I'm all for ending MAP pricing. I think authorized dealers should be able to sell a product at the price the market sets. In fact, it's become painfully obvious over the last few years that MAP pricing doesn't work. Authorized dealers want MAP pricing and then employ countless strategies to game the system (bundles and "place the item in the cart for the final price" gimmicks). In the end, prices tend to settle in at what the market sets as the best price, despite efforts by manufacturers and dealers to keep that from happening.

The problem with grey market sales is that they are benefiting from an infrastructure that they aren't paying for. It's crazy to pretend that having a North American distribution, marketing and repair network comes at no cost. Given the tiny price difference between gray market and authorized dealers (for example, the current street price of a 5DIII from an authorized dealer is a grand total of $57 higher than the gray market price), I'm more than willing to pay that small difference for the security of having a product that was properly imported.

Now, as I said, Canon has other options to address the problem and I expect that if they are not successful in the court, they may takes those actions.


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## dash2k8 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Canon's claims are absolutely bull.

The inclusion of cheap photocopies of product operating manuals, as opposed to genuine manuals that accompany genuine Canon cameras? *No, the printed items are exactly the same, down to the last word. These are not cheap, faded photocopies.*

Power supplies and accessories that are counterfeit, manufactured by third parties and/or not compliant with applicable laws, regulations and certifications? *No, they are official Canon products and work just fine in all the countries that I've taken them to over the years.*

I've bought numerous grey market Canon products over the years and everything is absolutely identical except for the warranty coverage. The entire package from the box to the manuals to the smallest accessories cannot be differentiated in quality or function from domestic items. I love my Canon products but am utterly disgusted by such blatant false claims and now suing a seller of grey market items.


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## MrToes (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Eagle Eye said:


> tolusina said:
> 
> 
> > Item 1;
> ...



I see this hurting Canon in the long run. For example Nikon prices are much lower than the Canon comp prices on some products (e.g. D810 vs 5Ds R). So new consumers will go with the competitors lower prices. Thus lowering market numbers for Canon in the future in terms of new lens/flash sales etc. 

I see this as US retailers putting pressure on Canon USA to curb the sales lost to Gray Market lower prices. Good for the BIG guys and not so good to the small photographer trying to make profit for his small business.


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## RickWagoner (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Actually on section two involving lack of warranty the court might rule against Canon on this. It is a full blown Canon product and Canon refuses to warranty it themselves either know it is sold by Canon themselves from the start. That is like a car company not warranting a car that still is in the factory warranty time period just because you bought it used, which is be deemed unlawful by the courts many years back. It is telling the court the company is not going to warranty a product just because they don't want to or because they have a deal setup which either will not fly in a judge or jury courtroom. 

The inclusion of cheap photocopies of product operating manuals, as opposed to genuine manuals that accompany genuine Canon cameras. This is Bull$hit and i know a court will not stand with this at all. The Camera is still a Genuine Canon product regardless, just because it is bought outside the companies made up system does not make it fake. The court will side with the defendant if the defendant has a half decent lawyer.

Power supplies and accessories that are counterfeit, manufactured by third parties and/or not compliant with applicable laws, regulations and certifications
Also i never heard of Gray market selling a camera with third party chargers or anything instead of oem parts. I have seen third party as an add on in a package or kit added to the price of the camera. This does not violate any law, copyright, regulation, and with a charger there is no "by law" certification needed. UL is not a requirement to sell a charger for example. The only Certification needed is the camera itself from the FCC, but it is not by the one exact camera you purchase but instead of the Camera Canon sells. Only way Canon will win this is if they prove the Camera they sell overseas is actually a different Camera they sell here. That would cost more money for Canon to do so and again they would have to show two different versions on a camera and one can't pass FCC at that point...no way is this going to hold in court. 

If anything this will show more "price fixing" from Canon in the court which will not be good for them. This is why you don't see companies really bring the gray market sellers to court, because it won't go well for the company and will hurt their current setup. This is big time in the Watch market, yet you never see any of the companies go after third party sellers. Companies like Rolex which if they had any legal right would easily take it to the courts but can't and in the end will end Rolex's price fixing system. 


I hope the two defendants have money for lawyers, they can win on a few items listed and destroy and totally end Canons pricing system by court order!!!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



RickWagoner said:


> Actually on section two involving lack of warranty the court might rule against Canon on this. It is a full blown Canon product and Canon refuses to warranty it themselves either know it is sold by Canon themselves from the start. That is like a car company not warranting a car that still is in the factory warranty time period just because you bought it used, which is be deemed unlawful by the courts many years back. It is telling the court the company is not going to warranty a product just because they don't want to or because they have a deal setup which either will not fly in a judge or jury courtroom.
> 
> The inclusion of cheap photocopies of product operating manuals, as opposed to genuine manuals that accompany genuine Canon cameras. This is Bull$hit and i know a court will not stand with this at all. The Camera is still a Genuine Canon product regardless, just because it is bought outside the companies made up system does not make it fake. The court will side with the defendant if the defendant has a half decent lawyer.
> 
> ...



Canon USA is a separate company from Canon as is Canon UK, Canon Europe, etc. They can legally warranty only cameras they sell as long as the limited warranty card supplied with the camera says this. 

The reason that substitute power cables are needed is that UK, Europe, China, etc do not use the same outlets as the USA. They have to supply a different cord, and the one they supply is a cheap Chinese made one.

There is no Price fixing involved. Price Fixing is when two or more companies conspire to fix prices on the same or similar products. A company can legally set the price of its product to whatever they want, and can require its dealers to stick to a MAP, or they will potentially be removed from the authorized dealer list and cannot purchase cameras. Rolex can legally set its price to 1 billion dollars each, but would not sell many.

As for watches, I posted a summary of a lawsuit by Omega against Costco for selling gray market. Watch makers are now mostly concerned with counterfeits.


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## unfocused (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



dilbert said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



You are partially right. And certainly more right than many of those commenting on this topic.

You are right in that MAP is primarily designed to benefit the retailer, not the manufacturer. (Although its does help the manufacturer to a certain degree in that it seeks to prevent their products from being sold at a price that devalues the brand).

I don't know that I would recommend ending the "authorized retailer" system. The retailer is the primary point of contact with the end user and it certainly is in any company's best interest to try to assure the integrity and reliability of that point of contact. Given the well-documented history of grey market sellers who try to upsell customers with misleading claims, attempt bait-and-switch tactics and use high-pressure sales calls to push worthless, overpriced accessories, there is a lot to be said for having a company like Canon authorize its dealers. (Keep in mind that there would be no Helen at Adorama to help us out, if there were no authorized dealers and instead Canon and other manufacturers pursued a "wild west" approach to selling.)

It's also worth a reminder that the MAP is simply the minimum *Advertised* price. There is no price fixing because every retailer is free to sell the product at whatever price they choose (which they do), they are simply required not to advertise the item for sale at a price lower than the MAP.


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## RickWagoner (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > Actually on section two involving lack of warranty the court might rule against Canon on this. It is a full blown Canon product and Canon refuses to warranty it themselves either know it is sold by Canon themselves from the start. That is like a car company not warranting a car that still is in the factory warranty time period just because you bought it used, which is be deemed unlawful by the courts many years back. It is telling the court the company is not going to warranty a product just because they don't want to or because they have a deal setup which either will not fly in a judge or jury courtroom.
> ...



Very nice! thank you for your reply explaining this.


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## takesome1 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I find it amazing that the Grey Market sellers find a way to side step the system. Whether they buy from foreign countries. Break kits up. Or whatever other method they use to bring the 'grey" item in. These guys are the scum at the bottom of the sales barrel. Then people wonder why they get bad service form these companies when the marketing methods they use are to look for loop holes in the system.

Yet there are those on this site that bash the mean bad Canon for their legal pricing policies and their attempts to protect their vendors and marketing. It is a sad statement.


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## Hjalmarg1 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



HighLowISO said:


> I may have missed a chance to get that 5Ds at a more reasonable price.
> 
> I'm also against MMAP, so I don't have too much sympothy for Canon in this case. I'm guessing Canon USA though must have got as lot of pressure from the big US dealers to address this issue especially since they were so effective at undercutting the price of the top selling items, not to mention the new launch of the 5Ds.
> 
> Yes as stated this all stems from Canon USA and their policy changes from years back as the Internet started to become a force in retail sales.


You can probably find gray market 5Ds on eBay. For example, 'allnewshop" is offering the 1Dx for US$3,899, which is not a bad deal, however, is roughly US$400 cheaper than from some official retailers.


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## mycanonphotos (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I have purchased a 5D3, a 7D2 along with a 600EX-RT from Get it Digital. All were legit. Registered Ser#'s at Canon the same day. I think Canon is getting blow back from their big retailers on how the lower level retailers are selling "gray market". This is all marketing...that's all it is... If company's are selling counterfeit products then shame on them but for Canon to go after these on line retailers who are selling its products at a lower rate is BS...


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## plam_1980 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I know that Nikon and Sony are doing the same MMAP policy stuff, but if the lower prices of the gray market Canon products have been the main reason for some people to buy it, now they may consider other brands as an option. It is not certain how much will Canon win in the long run...


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## tomscott (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

How much is a 1 year Canon warranty worth anyway? 

Its pretty pathetic in terms of warranties in this day and age anyway which makes me more likely to go grey market. Once its out you have to pay for it anyway.

Ive been using Canon for 10 years and never once had an issue under the one year mark. They are so well built that unless you drop or damage the item its pretty slim it will have a problem. Not saying it won't have a problem but so far I haven't.

So in my mind why should I spend an extra third or in some cases twice the amount for a product that is exactly the same comes with a similar warranty? Thats the only reason in my mind to buy from a proper retail outlet.

I had one item that came with a fault I got in touch with DRev who it was bought through and they were very helpful paid to have it sent to CPS here in the UK and it was sorted came back perfect.

So much for third parties being poor options… had nothing but good experience. 

My girlfriend bought a Canon 70D recently from simply electronics with a 18-135mm and 55-250mm STM and paid £634 for the body and 18-135 and £104 for the 55-250. So £739 in total. Currently in Jessops UK The 70D with 18-135mm is £939 and the 55-250mm £200 total £1139, £400 more 54% increase. 

In real life if you can make those savings you would be insane to pay the extra for a 1 year warranty.

ITS INSANE! 

Probably worse here in the UK.


----------



## Mikehit (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Why are people getting so worked up? Canon are not trying to make grey market goods illegal but they are trying to stall them by (legitimately) stopping grey market suppliers putting fake serial numbers on the goods and using copyright law to stop people photocopying the manual. 
If grey market goods are so legit then you have to ask why are the suppliers putting fake serial numbers on them? People doing this are running a con, so why jump on Canon's back?
And manuals are available on the internet anyway.

As for calls for Canon to abolish price differences, most of the differences nowadays are down to the cost of running a business and local taxes (any one living in US knows that the advertised price is without taxes and expect local taxes to be added. This is alien to the European advertising). Even if Canon sold all cameras to every distributor worldwide at the same price, property and manpower prices in Asia would mean that they could sell at a tidy profit and still undercut the running costs of a Western sales outlet.


----------



## aceflibble (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Grey market is bad; manufacturers fixing prices is bad. Canon are absolutely in the right to sue—and should—and consumers are absolutely in the right to tell Canon to get bent and make full use of the second hand market or switch to Nikon, Sony, Fuji, or whoever else, instead. Nobody is under any obligation to play nice with anybody.

Maybe if Canon didn't enforce a mandatory 200% price hike on every lens they relaunch with IS, grey market sales wouldn't have gotten to the point they have.


----------



## Ozarker (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



dilbert said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Freedom of speech is the right to communicate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship. It is a 1st Amendment Right. The Constitution constrains government power. You can regulate what people are allowed to say in your home, however, government is constrained from telling you what you may or may not say in your home. It has nothing to do with MAP.


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## farhad (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Canon rips us off and is proud of it. 
You people is north america are lucky in Europe, we pay way more than you ....
I would like to know where these stuff are cheaper than the us?....as far as i know us prices are the lowest


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## Chaitanya (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> chauncey said:
> 
> 
> > I realize the word "addiction" is rather harsh but, due to the fact that I'm lens addicted to Canon and that jumping ship would be
> ...



going off the topic but even in India Nikon and Sony are strict in the way service and sales are handled. Nikon charges for service of any goods that purchased online(Amazon, Snapdeal, etc..) within the warranty period. this also applies to Nikon products that were purchased in US or other countries. whereas Canon will honour that 1 year warranty on goods while servicing. also they give 2 years extra warranty for Canon goods purchased from brick and mortor shops compared to an online one.


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## jeffa4444 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I thought this was quite funny. American cunsumers get a far better deal than Europeans and some of the worst companies at enforcing MMAP are Amercan companies like Apple, Microsoft, Adobe etc. who also tend to sue far more easily. 
The bulk of US camera sales go through one company in NY thats far more unhealthy for competition especially in a country the size of the US. 
I want my local dealer to be there so I never buy grey imports because I know I can get advice and touch & feel products before I purchase its a pain in the ass sending something back bought over the internet.


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## rambarra (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I am a gray market dealer myself (not USA). 

re.: fake serials
it is a common practice among some suppliers in HK to remove the original serial number stickers placed on the bottom of the cameras and replace them with fake ones. The stickers on the outside of the box are usually removed as well. 
This is merely done for precautionary reasons. With a valid serial number Canon could track back the supplier(s) and take actions against them since they were not supposed or allowed to sell these items abroad. OTH the serials registered in the firmware are still there, so it is just a matter of canon willing or unwilling to take actions or not. Canon HK cutting supplies to infringing dealers? Unlikely, since that would mean a sharp drop in sales. Better leave the things go and tolerate gray market.
Useless to say that, from customer's perspective, nothing changes since the product is absolutely identical otherwise.

re.: fake battery chargers
not sure if these people of getitdigital actually took original battery chargers out and replaced them with fake ones. I think this to be unlikely. These people sell 5d cameras by the thousands... what will they do with all those chargers taken out? It just makes no sense. More likely these cameras are equipped with battery chargers intended for countries other than US. In this case in order to avoid customers' moanings you usually throw in an adapter for free and this is probably what canon is referring to.


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## takesome1 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



dilbert said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



See what the Federal Trade Commission has to say about it.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed


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## unfocused (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



takesome1 said:


> See what the Federal Trade Commission has to say about it.
> 
> https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed



Thanks. I always appreciate it when someone takes the time to actually find out the facts and share them.


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## mnclayshooter (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > Lack of enforceable warranties or inferior warranty coverage
> ...



I had warranty service denied for a 6D bought from Big Value Inc. Wrestled with Canon support to get a resolution to cover the repair cost at a reduced rate. Interesting note, Canon did the repair but would NOT warranty their own work and clearly stated this in writing on the shipping receipt back to me. 

Gray market is just that, gray... you probably got a good deal on a great product, but you might not get the same quality of service from the manufacturer... I'm not actually as upset as some others on here about it. I knew it going into it.


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## East Wind Photography (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I know in other retail and wholesale industries to become an authorized seller, the dealer must sign an agreement. Is it possible these authorized dealers are violating the terms of their agreement? If so then Canon has every right to sue them for damages and lost revenue. If you are not willing to abide by the agreement then dont sign it and sell chinese knockoffs at a discount.


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## scyrene (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



takesome1 said:


> I find it amazing that the Grey Market sellers find a way to side step the system. Whether they buy from foreign countries. Break kits up. Or whatever other method they use to bring the 'grey" item in. These guys are the scum at the bottom of the sales barrel. Then people wonder why they get bad service form these companies when the marketing methods they use are to look for loop holes in the system.
> 
> Yet there are those on this site that bash the mean bad Canon for their legal pricing policies and their attempts to protect their vendors and marketing. It is a sad statement.



Scum? Yikes.

Poor ol' innocent international corporations being harmed by these evil people finding 'loopholes'.

I resent the fact prices are far higher here in the UK than, say, in East Asia. If someone can legally find a way to bring the same product to me for less, then good for them (and good for me). If they're buying stuff abroad, importing it (and paying relevant tax and duty) and selling it on - saving customers money whilst making a profit themselves - how is that unethical?


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## scyrene (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Incidentally, I'm naive and lacking in understanding of such things, so can someone explain warranties?

Canon makes a camera. There's a fault or flaw in it that means it needs fixing. This is down to manufacturing error, say. If the problem is demonstrably Canon's fault, why does it matter where it was bought? Or is this something different?


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## rambarra (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



East Wind Photography said:


> I know in other retail and wholesale industries to become an authorized seller, the dealer must sign an agreement. Is it possible these authorized dealers are violating the terms of their agreement? If so then Canon has every right to sue them for damages and lost revenue. If you are not willing to abide by the agreement then dont sign it and sell chinese knockoffs at a discount.



Nah. It is far more complicated than this. Each Canon subsidiary in the world has its own budgets and policies. Take Canon Hong Kong for example. For each year they have to reach sale targets. They sign up local wholesale dealers and apply to them their local hong kong price policy, which is tailored for that specific market. These wholesale dealers will eventually dump part of the inventory they bought from Canon to local hong kong brokers which again will export these volumes to other countries (like Europe or US).
Canon HK will mildly tolerate this because for them it means sales and reaching targets. They know who is doing what but when you have a customer who is monthly purchasing millions dollars in merchandise you think more than twice before sacking him. Not to mention that you can sack one and simply another will immediately take its place.

On the other side of the world Canon US or Canon EU will fight for defending their own price policies and their lucrative margins on the same items. They still have some weapons left (like for example deny the servicing on the gray market items) but their reluctancy to use these weapons might well mean something ....

After all for canon it is all business baby ... !


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## joejohnbear (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Taylorpilot said:


> I don't really have a problem with MAP pricing. It keeps somebody from giving away cameras at $10 profit just for the fun of it, putting all the other real businesses under. I think as a contract between two private companies, they should be able to create basic terms for selling their products. Almost all retail outlets have guidelines that they have to sale their products through. Most legit stores can't sale them for the price that the ebay stores do, and stay in business, so they suffer.



Working for a company not unlike Canon, we've had Amazon price a product so low that the other dealers (B&H, Adorama). Like $4 over dealer price, so the smaller dealers will actually lose money per unit because of shipping. Like wtf. Then they'll sell maybe 2 units while B&H will sell 1000 per month, and then when B&H decides to stop carrying it, Amazon still keeps its price low and sells almost nothing. Letting this to continue to happen is not a sustainable way to run a manufacturing and distribution business.


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## sunnyVan (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



rambarra said:


> East Wind Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I know in other retail and wholesale industries to become an authorized seller, the dealer must sign an agreement. Is it possible these authorized dealers are violating the terms of their agreement? If so then Canon has every right to sue them for damages and lost revenue. If you are not willing to abide by the agreement then dont sign it and sell chinese knockoffs at a discount.
> ...



Good point. 

Now how come Canon doesn't come out with a two tier pricing for servicing equipment? For example, for exactly the same service, a product bought through an authorized dealer past the warranty period is charged, say, $100. Then charge the same service $200 for something that is purchased through grey market or second hand.


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## joejohnbear (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



MrToes said:


> Eagle Eye said:
> 
> 
> > tolusina said:
> ...



The race to the bottom in pricing is not conducive to a long term business. *Shrugs*


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

A couple points:

1 - One of the structural problems for Canon with this issue is that they have, technically, different companies operating in the different countries. Canon USA may hop up and down in anger at the importing of cheaper gear (due in good part today from currency movements), but they are not the same company that sold the cameras in Asia to the importers. This isn't an uncommon corporate structure for large manufacturers, for a variety of reasons, but it's a huge pain for the brand, and for control over pricing in the internet age. 

2- The importers are probably making a good but not spectacular margin on their sales to the U.S. Adding legal costs to those sales may turn that business very sour - even if the importers are found to be non-infringing, etc. The calculus for Canon USA may be that spending a few hundred thousand dollars on lawyers to make the importing/undercutting unprofitable will allow them to charge much higher prices not just on those cameras that are being sold discounted, but also across the entire American market. 

3- Usually when you have massive currency valuation shifts (with the Yen plummeting versus the dollar) with an export-heavy manufacturer, like Canon, they would see increased sales in a foreign market. But when importers are conducting those sales, they are eating that new-found currency arbitrage margin and they are also buying in Yen, handing Canon back it's own now-undervalued currency. 

UPSHOT: To solve this Canon probably has to be less generous with its honoring of gray market good warranties, etc. That's my concern as a shooter (with a 5d3 I bought for a steal a year ago). In terms of its legal claims, I'd need to see more, but they struck me as a bit stretchy. I suspect the purpose of them isn't to win a quick victory (as though that were possible in the legal system), but to cause a long-term festering sore in the certainty of the import business model.


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## jeffa4444 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Not many people standing up for Canon here. As a manufacturer that exports globally we too have suffered from grey importing of our products and the picture being painted here is very simplistic. Firstly premises & people are your biggest cost and clearly Europe & the US are higher than the Far East so cost to sell is higher, cost to service is higher, secondly import tariffs play a part as does taxes (sales tax / VAT), thirdly advertising & promotion is higher in Europe & the US than the Far East, fouthly compliances, H&S, accounting rules they are all different and all add cost so your not looking at like for like. 
Our US operation is very different from our UK operation which is very different to our French, Australian & Far East offices. 
Canon are making precision products in both high cost (Japan) and lower cost (Taiwan & China) countries, the R&D alone runs into many millions of dollars if people dont like their pricing buy a cheaper brand like Samsung its simple.


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## PureClassA (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

MAP is also something that is CONTRACTUAL. It' has nothing to do with Free Speech. If you want to be an authorized Canon retailer, you have to sign a contract to play by their rules.

That being said, I've bought a 5D3 from GetItDigital. I called and spoke to someone there and asked about the warranty issue. He said, what I bought (Ebay) was a grey market item and offered to upgrade my purchase to the full USA warranty version for about $150 more. I took it and it registered it CPS no problem



Mikehit said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...


----------



## kaihp (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



scyrene said:


> Incidentally, I'm naive and lacking in understanding of such things, so can someone explain warranties?
> 
> Canon makes a camera. There's a fault or flaw in it that means it needs fixing. This is down to manufacturing error, say. If the problem is demonstrably Canon's fault, why does it matter where it was bought? Or is this something different?



I don't know US law, but here in Denmark it is less clear cut: as a end-user you have a 2 year warranty. The law says this is mandatory, and cannot be escaped even if you make the consumer sign a statement to the contrary.

Not so between companies. And herein lies the devil.

I don't know how Canon is setup, but imagine 'Canon Mfg' selling to 'Canon Trading JP' with zero warranty, and 'Canon Trading JP' selling to a 'Canon Trading WW' who then again sells to 'Canon USA'. Only 'Canon USA' takes on warranty towards its retail network and thereby the consumers.

Hope this helps (and is accurate).


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



East Wind Photography said:


> I know in other retail and wholesale industries to become an authorized seller, the dealer must sign an agreement. Is it possible these authorized dealers are violating the terms of their agreement? If so then Canon has every right to sue them for damages and lost revenue. If you are not willing to abide by the agreement then dont sign it and sell chinese knockoffs at a discount.



Don't confuse Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) with the ability to sell for whatever price you want. Canon dealers can and do sell for well below the MAP price, they just can't advertise a lower price. That's why many smart buyers negotiate a lower price for a camera, because the dealer can sell it for less if he wishes, as long as he does not advertise it. Canon price watch puts you in touch with a dealer who will cut the price below MAP for you.

I was told by a local dealer that Sony does not allow this, and dealers are supposed to show them evidence that they charged the MAP price, or lose their dealership. Canon is lenient by comparison.


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## aceflibble (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



scyrene said:


> Incidentally, I'm naive and lacking in understanding of such things, so can someone explain warranties?
> 
> Canon makes a camera. There's a fault or flaw in it that means it needs fixing. This is down to manufacturing error, say. If the problem is demonstrably Canon's fault, why does it matter where it was bought? Or is this something different?


Depends on what country the seller of the item is in and how soon after purchase the fault(s) appeared.

In most western countries, if a product shows a fault within a short period—usually 14 days to a month, but sometimes up to six months for certain types of product in a small number of countries—either the manufacturer or seller is required to provide a replacement, pay for repairs, etc, regardless of any warranty as long as you have proof of purchase and can return to the original seller. To give a simple example, if you bought a Canon 5D in Germany and the screen died the next day, the shop will replace the unit (they'll be reimbursed by Canon) and this won't be counted against the warranty. For second hand items, the seller is typically obligated to offer a full refund.
However, if you can't provide proof of purchase, or you can't return to the original seller, this is where things get complicated. A shop obviously can't replace, repair or refund an item for you if you can't get back to the shop (or another branch, if it's a chain of shops). If you can't prove you bought the camera recently or in the place you said you did, no store is under obligation to fix anything for you. Generally, if something has gone wrong within that initial period—as I said, often 14 days—it is on the seller to sort out repairs/refunds/replacement and Canon will tell you to simply return the item to where you bought it. Problems right out of the box are not a matter for warranties.

And this is where grey market items cause problems. The seller only has to adhere to the laws of their own country, not the country of the buyer. Sellers of grey market items are often based in countries where they are under no obligation to provide or cover repairs, replacements or refunds, or the time period in which they are required to cover these things may be much shorter than the period your own country requires. They may not provide a valid receipt, calling into question any proof of purchase you may think you have. Canon may not be responsible for certain types of fault as particular parts of any electronic device may be made and installed specifically for certain regions—especially anything which connects to mains power, such as a battery or battery recharger—and using the product in a different region could be responsible for the faults, which is considered a user error and not something Canon is responsible for. Product misuse like this can be grounds for a manufacturer to refuse service or charge additional costs for repairs.

Essentially, when you buy a grey import item, you're getting in the same situation as if you bought a second hand item with the added caveat that the manufacturer can put the blame of any faults on you and the seller is too far away for you to realistically return the item. You're giving up both the full warranty and the basic consumer rights of your country, which are usually better than the rights offered in the country the seller is located in.

tl;dr: If you buy a grey import item, do it knowing that if things go wrong, you're on your own. If you can buy a second hand item in good condition within your own country, you may be better off doing that than buying a grey import. If you have any doubts, don't buy a grey import. Grey imports can be fine, but if things go wrong they go _really_ wrong. Your call to risk it or not.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



 sunnyVan said:


> Now how come Canon doesn't come out with a two tier pricing for servicing equipment? For example, for exactly the same service, a product bought through an authorized dealer past the warranty period is charged, say, $100. Then charge the same service $200 for something that is purchased through grey market or second hand.



Or like Nikon ... They will not Service Gray market, even if you pay. And, a buyer has no way to determine if a product they bought on the used market is gray, so never buy Nikon from a seller who does not have the original receipt to prove its not gray.

I much prefer the Canon lenient approach.


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## sunnyVan (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> sunnyVan said:
> 
> 
> > Now how come Canon doesn't come out with a two tier pricing for servicing equipment? For example, for exactly the same service, a product bought through an authorized dealer past the warranty period is charged, say, $100. Then charge the same service $200 for something that is purchased through grey market or second hand.
> ...



Yes, from Canon customer's perspective, being lenient is good for us. 

But I'm saying from a business perspective. Wouldn't it be a good thing to give customers incentive to purchase through authorized dealer by performing service at a discounted price? Then don't shut out other customers who bought through non-authorized dealer. Simply charge a bit higher. This way they can still profit from providing service. And then people who buy gray market will take calculated risk knowing they may have to pay more for service if something goes wrong.


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## CanonGuy (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



scyrene said:


> Incidentally, I'm naive and lacking in understanding of such things, so can someone explain warranties?
> 
> Canon makes a camera. There's a fault or flaw in it that means it needs fixing. This is down to manufacturing error, say. If the problem is demonstrably Canon's fault, why does it matter where it was bought? Or is this something different?



It's different (and 'unethical' according to some fanboys) cause Canon couldn't squeeze the maximum $$$$ from your pocket through a dealer sale at a gauged price


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## dickgrafixstop (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

The whole issue is Canon USA trying to hold on to margins. It boils down to Canon's corporate accounting practices. Realistically, Canon should set a wholesale price for dealers and let the dealers slug it out in the
marketplace. A Canon camera or lens sold in one country should be the same as that same model sold in another country - or labeled as a separate product. In short, "authorized" is a bunch of "caca del toro".


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## Luds34 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I've purchased a 6D and an M from BVI. And most recently I picked up a Fuji from 6th Ave. In most cases I got a camera + kit lens kit, where they separated out the lens. Everything seemed on the up and up. They might have swapped the battery on the M for a non Canon one which irked me a tiny bit, but nothing worth raising a fuss over. So for me personally I have had good luck and no issues ordering the imports off ebay. I enjoy saving the money to put towards lenses.

As for the issue at hand, unauthorized import sales, MAP prices, etc. It isn't so black and white, definitely a gray area (sorry, could resist). On one hand we the consumers want the free market to kick in and do it's job, get us the best product at the best possible price. On the other hand though, we want protection, knowing we're getting a legit product, and good service to back up that purchase, returns etc. Like any business, Canon has a product and a reputation to protect. That is why, like many companies, including my own, they form partnerships with distributors and retailers. The resellers, earn the right to sell said equipment by agreeing to certain terms, ultimately terms that are suppose to make the experience better for the end consumer. That's the theory anyway.

I think the issue we see in the US, UK, and Europe though is that the prices we're paying is just a little too much out of line. Think of the extra overhead/waste of having to scoop up product from Hong Kong and bring it to the US to sell on ebay, and they can still undercut by that price? 

I think I'd like to see Canon get more competitive on their pricing and bring MAP pricing down to something a bit more competitive with the market.


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## mycanonphotos (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Lots of good chatter goin on about the gray market debacle within this thread....!..I remember B&H advertised their gray market Canon lenses for the same price as a MSRP lens in the group lists. I always thought WTH would I buy one of those gray market lenses for the same price of a non gray market..... I dont think they do that anymore...I also remember some of them being $5-$20 lower...anybody else remember that?.... So it was ok to buy a gray market lens for the same price as a non gray market but take your chances?....


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## RustyTheGeek (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



mycanonphotos said:


> I have purchased a 5D3, a 7D2 along with a 600EX-RT from Get it Digital. All were legit. Registered Ser#'s at Canon the same day. I think Canon is getting blow back from their big retailers on how the lower level retailers are selling "gray market". This is all marketing...that's all it is... If company's are selling counterfeit products then shame on them but for Canon to go after these on line retailers who are selling its products at a lower rate is BS...



Ditto. I agree. I've purchased a LOT of Canon gear since 2009 from a variety of sellers. From all over. New and used. Online and local. Some from eBay/Craigslist, some from my local authorized shop, some from online authorized shops (BH, Adorama, Amazon, etc) and some from the uber-cool (LOL) ultra-discount grey market sellers named in the suits: GetItDigital, et al. Maybe I've just been super lucky but I haven't been cheated once and I've experienced good customer service from all of them whenever I had a problem. Some I have used for years. Some I sold immediately. I like to support my local shop but I also like to get a killer deal sometimes too. I try to balance it out.

Ever since I was a teenager buying car stereos, etc I have wondered why the heck off shore electronics companies worked so hard to "fix" and control prices instead of just selling everything at a wholesale price and let the market do whatever they like. If everything is the same price, the buyer buys from whoever they like the best or provides the best service, etc. Simple as that.

As for all the "violations" listed, I would support Canon when it comes to protecting their quality reputation with regard to counterfeit anything. Why a retailer would want to waste time with doing that and risk getting a reputation for selling that kind of crap I don't understand. Pulling stunts like that is really stupid and short sighted.

IMHO, I think Canon should "focus" on producing great products and let the market do whatever it likes to get them to the buyer. Support the products and not worry about the rest. The whole "authorized retailer" model is a leftover from decades ago before the Internet, Canon Rumors, Global Trade and the ability to expose and share reviews instantaneously about crooked rip-off sellers that hid behind mail order deliveries and phone orders. The "authorized retailer" programs are also a way for Canon to encourage/force the retailer to buy a certain amount/mix of inventory in order to keep that status symbol on their door.


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## takesome1 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



scyrene said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > I find it amazing that the Grey Market sellers find a way to side step the system. Whether they buy from foreign countries. Break kits up. Or whatever other method they use to bring the 'grey" item in. These guys are the scum at the bottom of the sales barrel. Then people wonder why they get bad service form these companies when the marketing methods they use are to look for loop holes in the system.
> ...



You can blame your government for the higher prices.

But this was a USA lawsuit. Here Canon has a right to control how their product is marketed and sold through authorized distributors. They infringe on Canon's rights when they do this. Size and wealth of the company or individual should never have a play in whether they have rights or not, all should be equal.

I have no idea how it is unethical in the UK. Maybe companies do not have the same rights.


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## scyrene (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



takesome1 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...



Oh I know, and I'm glad it's a different country - although as some have said, it may not be as big a deal as it sounds. Blame the government? I do in part. All governments apply tariffs and duties and it irks me, but there's not much I can do. However, companies seeking to fix prices higher than the market will bear are also to blame.

I can shop around - legally - and that's only right. In the model I outlined - an intermediary buys the product cheaply in one market and sells it in another - they haven't done anything wrong that I can see.

As for all companies being treated equally, sure - but they aren't. Bigger corporations (Canon included) throw their weight around and use legal loopholes a lot more than smaller ones.


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## cfargo (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



unfocused said:


> So, just to summarize:
> 
> Of the three largest camera manufacturers, Canon offers the most liberal policy toward repairs of gray market products;
> 
> ...



Canon USA is a subsidiary of Canon Japan (not a separate company/importer) Canon Japan gets the sales no mater where it is sold. Sure it may affect the budget Canon Japan put onto Canon USA but It's a Canon Japn product no mater where it was sold.


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## photo212 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



cfargo said:


> Canon USA is a subsidiary of Canon Japan (not a separate company/importer) Canon Japan gets the sales no mater where it is sold. Sure it may affect the budget Canon Japan put onto Canon USA but It's a Canon Japn product no mater where it was sold.


It is Canon repetition on the line. If a bunch of secondary equipment gets out on the market with the Canon brand name, Canon will feel the problem in negative comments and reviews, which leads to fewer sales down the line.

So, you have a camera body with the Canon name that works just fine, but some dealer swapped the Canon battery and recharger for a third party knockoff. The average consumer never notices, but when the battery dies prematurely or the recharger has electrical problems, who gets blamed? Canon.


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## dgr996 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Ritz Camera is one the main reason why we have MAP policies. Ritz Camera and a number of online companies were selling under cost. While it was great for a consumer it couldn't last. When Ritz Camera experienced a decline in growth they would no longer able to use todays dollars to pay yesterdays bills. They filed bankruptcy and Canon, Nikon, Sony and others lost several 100 million dollars. In the end it was the manufactures that were paying for the discounts that consumers were getting. The manufactures then adopted the MAP policy and got a Supreme Court ruling because it protects consumers, dealers and manufactures. The Department of Justice spent millions about 5 years ago investigating MAP and concluded that MAP was justified and the best solution for consumers. The authorized dealer only make 5% selling Canon USA products. I know many and it is not enough profit for them to survive. Many people think camera stores are like jewelry stores with tons of profit. If they were you would walk into one and you would see well dressed employees and beautiful stores. Most stores today look like they are going out of business regardless of how much they sell. 
As for the reason Canon is going after "grey market" resellers is because it is bad for everyone except the "grey market" dealer who is making 30-40% margin by circumventing the system. Canon USA losses millions by repairing cameras they didn't sell. The consumer really losses since most are not aware of "grey market" until they have an issue or try to sell the equipment. Then they find out they were sold something different then they expected. Often these "grey market" products have counterfeit accessories that damage the cameras. Controlled prices that are fair for all involved is the only solution.


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## Mikehit (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



dilbert said:


> If business A is able to offer lower prices than business B because they lower overheads and costs, why shouldn't we (as consumers) be able to benefit from that?



Again. You can. Canon is not trying to stop you. It is trying to stop the grey marketers putting a fake serial number on the camera to try and con Canon into paying for warranty repairs. 



> Reasonable?
> 
> Imagine if someone took Amazon to court because Amazon had an advantage in selling online goods because Amazon didn't have a physical store and thus lower costs. Would anyone stand for that?


That is not what Canon is trying to do 




> Uh, I think you've got that a bit mixed up. Canon USA is using a court case to force people like you to give Canon USA money because you're in the USA rather than buying from someone else and the money going back to Canon HQ not via Canon USA. So Canon USA wants you to treat them like a charity and give them extra money because you're buying from someone in the USA.


No they are not. Canon is making the grey marketers pay for the warranty cover for items they sell instead of being a parasite making a profit and expecting Canon to pay when and if the item has a fault




> To put this more simply...
> 
> If there were two web stores, one that sold items provided by Canon USA and one that sold items made by Canon but grey imported and every grey import was 30% cheaper but there are no functional differences between the goods, which are you going to buy? Are you going to buy the more expensive one just so that you can be nice and give Canon USA some money just because?
> 
> If Canon USA's business model is not able to compete with grey market imports than Canon USA needs to adapt or die.


Or how about...the grey marketer is making a profit and none of the money from the sale is going to support the Canon service centres within that country. And in future the people who buy them wonder why the Canon service centres have all shut because there is no cashflow to support them.
Here in UK, some grey importers will give a Canon standard warranty but what they do is work on the theory that the cameras so rarely go wrong that for the few that do have a fault they can afford to pay the repair costs at a Canon service centre and still make a profit.
So when you get more people buying grey imports, and more people getting pissed when they either have no effective warranty or have to return the item to Hong Kong to get it fixed because the warranty only applies to where they bought it. Don't forget that many grey importers (not all) are little more than maildrops with the item actually coming in direct from Asia and if you read the T&Cs the purchaser is actually acting as importer with liability for all taxes and duties and the only warranty is in the country from which it was despatched.


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## AvTvM (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

It does not matter, whether a global company like Canon has 1, 10, 1000 or 10000 legal entities around the world. If oh so poor Canon USA or Canon Europe has to repair a camera not sold by them, then Canon should internally cross-charge that cost. Problem solved. Those corporations are using the multiple entity structure and creative accointing all the time to maximize profits and minimize taxes via all sorts if transfer price shenanigans. 

They shall handle all that crap internally, rather than make things difficult for their own customers and/or sue direct importers - as long as these don't sell counterfeit products (or swap out batteries against even cheaper china stuff).


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## PureClassA (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Good Lord, there is some nonsense on here. Canon is a business. Retailers that sell their products are businesses. These businesses are FREE to choose whether or not to engage in business with each other. In so doing, Canon has a contract. If you want to be an authorized retailer for their products, you will abide by Canon's rules. Period. If you don't, any products you sell may not have Canon warranties honored. Period. It's very simple. Canon is honoring their retailers who play by the rules. If Canon honored every piece of gear sold on the grey and black markets, then what possible incentive do the BH, Adorama, and Amazons of the world have? Canon has the best service in the world of ANY camera company because they run a tight ship and HONOR their promises and contracts. 

When you knowingly purchase a product from a retailer who is NOT authorized by the manufacturer, you are voluntarily taking the risk that any problems may not be honored under normal warranty. When I bought a 5D3 from GetItDigital I was given the option to buy a Grey Market product for 10% less than an official Canon USA product. I opted for the later. Had I opted the former and had a problem, that was a gamble I would have lost. The end. 

Statements such as "Canon is just greedy" or "Canon should just do whatever I want, because "ME"" is the baseless silly argument of petulant, fist-banging children. I'm a father of three, so I defy anyone to argue to the point. I deal with the same arguments at home everyday. If you don't like Canon USA official pricing, by all means, vote with your wallet and go buy something else. No one flipping cares. Otherwise, nut up and be an adult and take responsibility for your own purchasing decisions.


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## dak723 (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



PureClassA said:


> Good Lord, there is some nonsense on here. Canon is a business. Retailers that sell their products are businesses. These businesses are FREE to choose whether or not to engage in business with each other. In so doing, Canon has a contract. If you want to be an authorized retailer for their products, you will abide by Canon's rules. Period. If you don't, any products you sell may not have Canon warranties honored. Period. It's very simple. Canon is honoring their retailers who play by the rules. If Canon honored every piece of gear sold on the grey and black markets, then what possible incentive do the BH, Adorama, and Amazons of the world have? Canon has the best service in the world of ANY camera company because they run a tight ship and HONOR their promises and contracts.
> 
> When you knowingly purchase a product from a retailer who is NOT authorized by the manufacturer, you are voluntarily taking the risk that any problems may not be honored under normal warranty. When I bought a 5D3 from GetItDigital I was given the option to buy a Grey Market product for 10% less than an official Canon USA product. I opted for the later. Had I opted the former and had a problem, that was a gamble I would have lost. The end.
> 
> Statements such as "Canon is just greedy" or "Canon should just do whatever I want, because "ME"" is the baseless silly argument of petulant, fist-banging children. I'm a father of three, so I defy anyone to argue to the point. I deal with the same arguments at home everyday. If you don't like Canon USA official pricing, by all means, vote with your wallet and go buy something else. No one flipping cares. Otherwise, nut up and be an adult and take responsibility for your own purchasing decisions.



Absolutely correct. If all you care about is yourself, then, of course, support grey market and curse Canon. If you care about legitimate camera stores surviving, then you should be all for these lawsuits. Pretty soon all we'll have left is shady, unreliable internet outlets. But as long as you saved a couple hundred bucks, why should you care?


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## RayValdez360 (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

How is he a hypocrite. He is just calling out Canon for their BS on a "pro-canon" site. He should be considered a hero for the truthful comment. Do you even know what a hypocrite is? You really are are a sheep.


unfocused said:


> Oh please! Give me a break. How is MAP pricing unethical? It's not unique to either Canon nor the camera business. It's simply a way for manufacturers to protect their authorized dealer base. You may not like it, but don't pretend it is somehow unethical.
> 
> And, Canon Rumors Guy, it's a bit hypocritical for you, since you take money from these grey market advertisers, to pass judgment on this lawsuit.
> 
> ...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



dilbert said:


> dak723 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



That is the case for most products and its why Amazon has become so huge, and other B&M stores are trying to figure out how to get on the bandwagon. That said, I do support my small local camera store, I've bought high end cameras and lenses from them, but if its something they don't carry, one of the big online stores will get the order.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > dak723 said:
> ...



We have a nearby car dealer (Dave Smith) who sells over the internet. They are located in a small wide place in the road called Kellogg Idaho, have more cars on their lots than people living in the town, and have become a huge dealer, they claim the largest sell in the world for some brands. People fly out from all over the country to pickup their new car. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Smith_Motors


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## PureClassA (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

Dilbert, it's not illegal. It's most assuredly NOT the same as "price-fixing" which involves multiple competitors in the same industry. I'm not sure where you are, so to be clear I'm talking about American contract law and the free markets.

Canon is ONE company. They can, if they please, set retail pricing and MMAP if they wish. In a free market, if you don't like Canon pricing and that is of paramount importance to you, by all means, shop Nikon. Shop Sony. Shop Fisher-Price. BUY GREY MARKET (with possible strings attached). We don't care. But Moaning about a bunch of legal statue (collusion and price fixing) that isn't germane to the issue doesn't bolster your argument.

Here's a few other well known and popular MMAP subject items in the marketplace. Video games and video game systems. The entire Disney movie library. Motor Vehicles. (and Tons of other things)

Why do companies do it? They do it because they have a product that is highly in demand and also to protect the integrity of their authorized dealers be they local brick and mortar store or an online giant.

Again, the choice is simple. You may have a product bought from an authorized dealer in which the warranty will be honored for a certain price. Or, you may purchase the same product on the Grey market for a lesser price but perhaps forego any ability to have it serviced under a warranty. That's it. Whining that you can't have both and that it isn't fair and Canon is just a big stupid meanie-head is not a reasonable or mature thought process.

THAT BEING SAID, I personally felt like GetItDigital made it very clear to me as a buyer that what I initially bought on eBay was indeed a grey market piece and that the warranty was a gamble. I accepted that as a buyer. I'm a big boy and knew what I was doing. Then, they offered to upgrade the purchase for about $150 to a Canon USA product if I wanted to be certain about the warranty. Again, I made a conscious buyer's decision to spend the minor extra sum to feel completely confident. 

I'll need to read more of specifically what Canon is suing for. Obviously GetItDigital is using auction site to move product and not a standard, private commercial online storefront (like BH or Adorama). This will be interesting. I certainly don't believe GID was in any way acting deceptively about what they were selling.


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## mycanonphotos (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



RustyTheGeek said:


> mycanonphotos said:
> 
> 
> > I have purchased a 5D3, a 7D2 along with a 600EX-RT from Get it Digital. All were legit. Registered Ser#'s at Canon the same day. I think Canon is getting blow back from their big retailers on how the lower level retailers are selling "gray market". This is all marketing...that's all it is... If company's are selling counterfeit products then shame on them but for Canon to go after these on line retailers who are selling its products at a lower rate is BS...
> ...



I think another strong point is that technology changes so fast we all as consumers want the best price on our products. I for sure don't buy right after a new product comes out till there is some kind of drop in price...The latest lens product I purchased was via a street price at canonpricewatch for the 100-400 IS II and was very happy with the outcome, (store in Canada) I'm going to take a hit selling my 5D3's after the 5D4 comes out...I can only wait till the price drops $500-700 from retail...people who pay higher prices can go right ahead and burn their cash its all right w me... I see some crazy stuff with rebate switches all the time...for example; people selling their used 70-200 IS II as a new one because they just ordered a new one with a rebate or a refurbished one etc...but just switching out the box...even if they make 100-200 bucks they will do it...You can tell if you follow the trend..."shipping in box without bar code because it was sent in for rebate or similar"...

My friend will go into a major camera store here in the LA area, Sammys...and shell out some major cash for off the shelf body's and lenses..I keep telling him to browse around on line but he just doesn't have the time to research or follow more closely...

Looking at the refurbished sales at Canon makes me sick....some prices are just not good enough with sales tax included...come on, you can buy a new product for just a little more from an out of state retailer and get free shipping and sales tax... Same for used products such as lens rentals lens authority site and borrow lenses.com...Really?... I have come close a few times to pulling the trigger on a few of those but the prices are not good enough for me to part with my $$...

I have been real happy with my latest purchases via "street prices" and from gray market ebay sales... so kudos to the company's looking out for ways to make a buck or two with out breaking the bank of its customers....

Another thing I feel strongly about is the serial numbering tampering...I think that consumers are doing this and pointing fingers to cause issues...its not in a company's best interest to do such things. I received an up sell call but it was just a sales pitch while verifying the shipping address for my 7DII...

Talking about car stereos bring back memories...I too am a big audiophile...ALWAYS purchased Rockford Fosgate amps and speakers form non authorized dealers for a fraction of the retail MSRP costs....

A canon camera is a canon camera that was built on an assembly line and that camera should have a warranty regardless of how it was sold...


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## sunnyVan (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



mycanonphotos said:


> RustyTheGeek said:
> 
> 
> > mycanonphotos said:
> ...



When you buy through street price program you're not supposed to reveal the actual name of the store. I wouldn't want this program shut down.


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## scyrene (Nov 24, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



PureClassA said:


> Good Lord, there is some nonsense on here. Canon is a business. Retailers that sell their products are businesses. These businesses are FREE to choose whether or not to engage in business with each other. In so doing, Canon has a contract. If you want to be an authorized retailer for their products, you will abide by Canon's rules. Period. If you don't, any products you sell may not have Canon warranties honored. Period. It's very simple. Canon is honoring their retailers who play by the rules. If Canon honored every piece of gear sold on the grey and black markets, then what possible incentive do the BH, Adorama, and Amazons of the world have? Canon has the best service in the world of ANY camera company because they run a tight ship and HONOR their promises and contracts.
> 
> When you knowingly purchase a product from a retailer who is NOT authorized by the manufacturer, you are voluntarily taking the risk that any problems may not be honored under normal warranty. When I bought a 5D3 from GetItDigital I was given the option to buy a Grey Market product for 10% less than an official Canon USA product. I opted for the later. Had I opted the former and had a problem, that was a gamble I would have lost. The end.
> 
> Statements such as "Canon is just greedy" or "Canon should just do whatever I want, because "ME"" is the baseless silly argument of petulant, fist-banging children. I'm a father of three, so I defy anyone to argue to the point. I deal with the same arguments at home everyday. If you don't like Canon USA official pricing, by all means, vote with your wallet and go buy something else. No one flipping cares. Otherwise, nut up and be an adult and take responsibility for your own purchasing decisions.



I don't know if that's the rhetoric I'm seeing here. I think people are worried that Canon wants to eradicate the grey market (I take it from some comments that in fact they're not attempting anything so drastic, nor would they succeed, but that's still what people fear). If those people bought something else, incidentally, Canon would lose money - if we're talking about legitimate Canon goods, even grey market ones are a sale for the company overall. Their margins might be lower, but it's better than nothing.

I don't know about the USA, but in general the idea that a product made by a company is only their responsibility (as far as it ever is) if you paid more than a certain amount, or bought it from a particular place is odd, however normal or legal. But anyhow, on warranties I'm sure you're right; they aren't something I know about, nor have I ever made use of one - isn't that what home insurance etc is for? And repairs/support through CPS - when I joined, I just had to provide serial numbers, not demonstrate where I'd bought them from. Maybe it's different elsewhere (also I've never needed their support so is there another level of proof required for, say repairs?).



dak723 said:


> If all you care about is yourself, then, of course, support grey market and curse Canon. If you care about legitimate camera stores surviving, then you should be all for these lawsuits. Pretty soon all we'll have left is shady, unreliable internet outlets. But as long as you saved a couple hundred bucks, why should you care?



Your assertion that grey market and internet sellers are all shady/unreliable is false. All businesses should abide by the law (bigger ones seem more likely to resort to dodgy practises than smaller ones fact, judging by the slew of tax avoidance and accounting scams that have been reported in recent years). Any sellers of counterfeit goods should be prosecuted and shut down. But most of this stuff is real, just bought in Asia at a lower price, then imported. Beyond that why *should* I care if one goes out of business if they can't compete with another? And when we're talking about camera gear, it's a lot more than 'a couple of hundred bucks[']' saving.


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## mycanonphotos (Nov 25, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

I feel good going into a typical camera store knowing that I can one up much of their sales pitches by my on-line knowledge of where and how I can acquire equipment at lower prices..If by all means they have something on sale and are willing to match prices or even come close I will entertain the idea of giving them my business... I HATE walking out of a store paying full price for an item I know I could have gotten a better price on...#1 I don't want or need it that bad to pay that price. #2 others are and I respect that so let them spend their cash... people sometimes need to look at prices and items by the hours or work required to attain that money for said purchases..

There are MILLIONS of people out there who know nothing about on-line retailers and how much detail the previous 80+ posts go into.... Everyone has an opinion and that will never change.
Let's not forget that ethics in this case is a point of view held in the eye of the beholder who has the money.

Am I going to continue purchasing gray market items HELL YES! Think about it... do you plan on keeping a camera body for longer than two years (no) because a new one will be out by then and you will be planning on selling the other one and acquiring a new one...if you take care of your equipment, keep it clean with OEM boxes, parts etc...your sales price goes up for ebay sales...and the people purchasing it will know its out of warranty so who cares if its gray market...most people looking at it wont even consider it...

If something goes wrong with any of my equipment I'll send it in for repair, simple as that..all my stuff is registered at Canon...


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## StudentOfLight (Nov 25, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*

This is a problem of globalization. There are differences in sales, marketing, distribution and technical costs from region to region. Does SP&A in the US cost the same as SP&A in Malaysia for example? Does technical staff cost the same in Europe as in South Africa? The answer if you were unsure is no, they cost more in first world countries because salaries are higher in first world countries. Sales need to sustain these higher salaries.

In order for a business to budget effectively for sales, marketing, distribution, technical support etc... activities in a particular region they need to forecast sales per region and set pricing accordingly. If sales are leaking into a region from unauthorized channels then they are not paying for the sustainability of the required support and services in a region, some of which is needed to ensure products meet local government regulations (e.g. labels, safety regulations, environmental policies etc...)


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## joejohnbear (Nov 25, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



StudentOfLight said:


> This is a problem of globalization. There are differences in sales, marketing, distribution and technical costs from region to region. Does SP&A in the US cost the same as SP&A in Malaysia for example? Does technical staff cost the same in Europe as in South Africa? The answer if you were unsure is no they cost more in first world countries because salaries are higher in first world countries. Sales need to sustain these higher salaries.
> 
> In order for a business to budget effectively for sales, marketing, distribution, technical support etc... activities in a particular region they need to forecast sales per region and set pricing accordingly. If sales are leaking into a region from unauthorized channels then they are not paying for the sustainability of the required support and services in a region, some of which is needed to ensure products meet local government regulations (e.g. labels, safety regulations, environmental policies etc...)



Add to that currency fluctuations, no?


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## StudentOfLight (Nov 26, 2015)

*Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales*



joejohnbear said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > This is a problem of globalization. There are differences in sales, marketing, distribution and technical costs from region to region. Does SP&A in the US cost the same as SP&A in Malaysia for example? Does technical staff cost the same in Europe as in South Africa? The answer if you were unsure is no they cost more in first world countries because salaries are higher in first world countries. Sales need to sustain these higher salaries.
> ...


Yes definitely. Here in South Africa our local currency has lost more than 25% of it's value to the USD in the past 12 months. Our prices went up as a result.


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