# 5D Mark III (or other) Followup



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 24, 2012)

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<strong>Follow-up form Stephen Oachs

</strong>Mr. Oachs has posted a followup post to yesterday’s images of the new 200-400 and an unidentified camera. He’s also posted a RAW for those that believe the image was altered in any way.</p>
<p><strong><a href="http://blog.apertureacademy.com/2012/01/follow-up-post-re-prototype-canon.html">Read it here</a></strong></p>
<p><strong></strong><strong>22mp perfect for 3×3 oversampling?</strong>

Below is a direct quote about the reported 22mp resolution</p>
<blockquote><p>I have no insider information, but just wanted to point that 22 MP has some “magical” properties for HD video, as it corresponds exactly to a 3×3 oversampling of the final video resolution. (22 MP, minus crop for 16:9 ratio, divided by 9, equal 1080×1920)</p>
<p>The next “magical” resolution (4×4 oversamping) is at 39 MP.</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>CPS Event in Yokohama?

</strong>I’m told there is a CPS event in Yokohama, Japan at CP+. Those usually lead to some kind of announcement.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## tt (Jan 24, 2012)

Would normal photographers have covers/coats/skins/protection on their lenses? Why would the Canon guy not have?
Apart from field testing without, isn't it a bit of a "look here at the new kit"?

Have previous CPS announcement evens been before, or during the CP+ or similar events?


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## Neeneko (Jan 24, 2012)

If the reason stated in this rumor is true regarding why the camera uses a 22MP sensor, I will be seriously pissed.

Not because 22MP is bad, but because that would mean video requirements are influencing the still photo design of new cameras. This is something I was worried about when Canon started merging the products, that the still cameras would start compromising their design in order to meet the needs of video features.

These types of design decisions might push me away from Canon.. I want a device that does one thing well, the thing I bought it for, not 2 things 'ok' at the same price point... and stuff like this really shows that adding video is not just a 'free' feature.


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## NormanBates (Jan 24, 2012)

once again, the "having video makes this camera worse for stills" argument
I completely disagree

and I didn't hear any stills shooters complaining in the times of film, when you could buy better and vastly cheaper film stocks thanks to the huge demand for film by the movie industry
just as "kodak should forget about stills and develop better film stocks for its main customer, the movie industry" was a dumb argument back then, "canon should forget about video and develop better stills cameras" is silly now


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## BornNearDaBayou (Jan 24, 2012)

Oh people let's stop all this nonsense! Video does not influence the still camera design. It's just one person's opinion, and not directly from Canon, Inc. 

Remember video on the 5dII was revolutionary at the time. They just want to be the pioneers and innovators in that category. The 5dII is a wonderful still camera and is used as such by 95% of owners. I foresee the MP count as being slightly higher. Even at 22MP, if true, it BETTER have 2 stop improvement over 5dII in low-light. Otherwise I will NOT upgrade. Nor will many other folks. Canon is an intelligent corporation--they do market research and design accordingly.


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## AprilForever (Jan 24, 2012)

Amazing what a firestorm those few pictures have generated... I am sure that Canon had something to do with the release of these pictures...


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## AlicoatePhotography (Jan 24, 2012)

Wow, The RAW image is really detailed. I was skeptical looking at the jpeg image of the new camera. The 200-400 was pretty convincing, but there was some doubt on the camera. The RAW photo ends the doubt. My guess is that this is the Cinema camera that they had already referenced. The change of format to the LCD, Rate button, No +- for chimping. Seems like some ergonomic changes I wouldn't expect in the 5DMKII. 

2D cinema?

No matter what, I am very glad to see it.


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## DramaMask (Jan 24, 2012)

It doesn't make any sense for Canon to develop a another full frame sensor in addition to the 18MP sensor of the 1D X. Using the same sensor as the 1D X is the only thing that makes sense from a cost point of view. Canon is not a charity, they are in the market to make money.

On another note, I think if Canon really wanted to leak pictures of this camera they would have sent this guy to a ball game in the US, not to some remote part of Africa.


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## mkln (Jan 24, 2012)

Those pics are nice and clearly somehow there must be Canon behind them.
Tho being so obvious is not that smart of a move by them, idk.

Anyway, from the available data I think that it is reasonable to expect:
- the new camera to be called 5D X (it makes sense to keep the 5 numbering, after all the 5D2 was the first HDSLR)
- it will have features from 5D Mark II (full frame, resolution), and 7D (autofocus)
- it will not substitute the 5D Mark II (like G1X doesn't substitute G12). same for 7D.
- they will continue to sell 5D Mark II at a discount price ($1999? wasn't this the discounted price on BH?)
- they will sell the new 5D X at a premium relative to the original launch price of the 5D Mark II (which I don't know. I would guess at least a $500 dollar premium for body-only)

Also, note how Canon and Nikon are now competing directly on all segments (now more than in the last years)

we had D3 and 1D (different sensor size, different resolution), we have D4 and 1D X (basically the same)
we had D700 and 5D Mark II (different speed, different resolution, different autofocus, different video), we will have D800 and 5D X (same everything?)
canon went with a "D90" design for the 60D, Nikon went for a 50D design with the D7000, so here's one difference. the other being Canon chose G1X vs Nikon's 1 system.

I currently have a NEX 5n and a 5d 2 and (Canon please read here, now) I will only upgrade to a 5D X if it has
*- wider dynamic range*
- better noise performance at 6400+
- better quality of the noise grain (no banding this time please).
that's it for me. the NEX has spoiled me in this sense, its sensor has the only downside of being APSC and not full frame.
All in all I found DxO rankings for sensors to be pretty accurate.


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## candyman (Jan 24, 2012)

Well, looking at the photo.....it looks like this person modelled. Standing in this position would assume this person focused the camera and is ready to shoot. 
If you look on the LCD, it is empty. Camera is not on. 

Or, am I mssing something?


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## Picsfor (Jan 24, 2012)

The 5DX has been mentioned before, and if you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.

It provides an upgrade path for 7D and 5D2 users in a single stroke, giving all a bit of everything.
As has been pointed out, it will drive sales for more expensive L lenses, it will simplify the production process (1 line instead of 2), and it would sure as hell give Nikon and Sony something to think about.

The battery grip with the extra joystick makes it almost worth upgrading just for that feature alone.

So, for your £2500, the 22mp FF is nothing new, which means Canon have to introduce something to make it worth while upgrading to.

So, if we're talking about a 5DX, what would i expect?
Well if we take the 22mp FF as the sensor option we then have to consider something that makes it worth upgrading for.

First off, the AF has to be a given - it is the only issue that has ever received negative press on the 5D2 (apart from the initial black dot thing). And there is no way 7D'ers would upgrade to this unless it had at least 7D focusing - so that or a pro series AF seems most likely. Would it be a 1DX AF? I can see pluses and minuses for this. Would be cheaper to implement production wise - but would it detract from 1DX sales?
Jury's out on that - but it would certainly get the 7D folk chomping at the bit.

ISO - up it to 12800 or 25600 working, again, 5D2's would be happy with an extra stop, and the 7D brigade would be happy as well.

Dynamic Range - either/ or - could be one of those things they leave for the 1DX.

Weather proofing - by having the small body format, it means the battery grip is an add on, which will always compromise weather proofing. I would not expect this to be as good as a 1DX.

Buffer & Frame Rate - both severely hampered in comparison to the 1DX. You gets what you pay for...

Dual Card Slots - i suspect this might be slipped in to aid the video brigade (for those who can't afford a 1DX) - remember it only allows extended video length, not improves video quality to 1DX level. It would also be one of those clinching features for those who are umming and ahhring. As for low end wedding togs, what a boost.

GPS built in - this is a gimmick that would appeal to the traveler and landscape brigade more than sports brigade - though the wildlife lot might not complain. I say gimmick - i am well aware of its uses - but i still do not see it as a real marketing issue for most because when importing pics, the location tends to end up in the tags and keywords for ease of search.

Shutter life - held at 150k or 200k - which would make you wonder whether to stump up now for a 1DX and get that 400k shutter life, or get in half price increments!

Oh, and finally, that wonderful battery grip with the additional joystick. Whilst an optional extra, i wonder how many wedding and wildlife togs would get such a battery grip, who previously haven't bought one? The ability to swap from landscape to portrait and select focus point on the fly would be an absolute must - but you're only getting this wonderful 1DX feature at a premium (£300) which in turn means more revenue for Canon and means you're getting closer to the 1DX price tag in steps.

Yes, the 5DX would definitely be for people who can't afford a 1DX, but would like one. £2500 for the body, £300 for battery grip - that's almost £3000 for a stripped down 1DX that may well have a street price of £4200 after initial launch. It's good enough to make people stretch, but short enough in features to make the pros (people whose living depends on getting 'that' shot) needing to cough up the extra.

Most importantly - it is a strong enough feature set to get the 'newcomers' choosing Canon over Nikon and Sony.

I may be totally wrong, but it would follow on with Canons 1DX strategy and would certainly leave Nikon playing catch up. I know a few Nikon shooters who do not want a 36mp D800 and would swap to a 5D3 if it held to the 21/22mp region.


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## mkln (Jan 24, 2012)

Picsfor said:


> The 5DX has been mentioned before, and if you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.
> 
> It provides an upgrade path for 7D and 5D2 users in a single stroke, giving all a bit of everything.
> As has been pointed out, it will drive sales for more expensive L lenses, it will simplify the production process (1 line instead of 2), and it would sure as hell give Nikon and Sony something to think about.
> ...


I agree when you say that Canon needs to differentiate between 1 and 5. I think (and I really hope) that they don't do so on the dynamic range side of things. I think it is more likely they will do so with noise. 
This makes sense because the 5 would have higher resolution, and would not be targeted to sports photogs, differently from the 1. 
So I'd expect 1 stop advantage over 5dII, 1 stop disadvantage compared to 1DX. This still means having native usable 6400 (at least).

I don't agree with you when you say that Nikon would need to play catch up. If the D800 has a higher resolution and keeps the sensor quality on par with D700, then I don't think it's Nikon who has to play catch up.
The only true cons for the D700 were resolution and HD video. The pros were a better quality of raw files at higher sensitivity levels (on a per pixel basis), and the autofocus. 
Now I don't suppose the D800 will be a step down from the D700. Then it's reasonable to think its raw files will be great. 
At the same time Canon sensors have not been up to Sony/Nikon standards lately, and I certainly hope they can revert this.
(I say this looking at my NEX 5N and wishing Canon had a full frame version of it).


Also, given we're talking about HD video, Canon would also need to be implementing at least some of the killer features from Magic Lantern.
I am currently using the unified ML, beta version on my 5D2 and it is amazing just for focus peaking and some other photo-oriented live view features. This gives me less reasons to think about an upgrade to 5DX...


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## jbgreig (Jan 24, 2012)

candyman said:


> Well, looking at the photo.....it looks like this person modelled. Standing in this position would assume this person focused the camera and is ready to shoot.
> If you look on the LCD, it is empty. Camera is not on.
> 
> Or, am I mssing something?



LCD is not empty. I downloaded the RAW and opened in LR. Bumping up the exposure way up reveals lots of detail. In the LCD is a red headed bird (bluish markings around the eye) zoomed way in. Grab the RAW. It helps a bunch!


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## candyman (Jan 24, 2012)

jbgreig said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > Well, looking at the photo.....it looks like this person modelled. Standing in this position would assume this person focused the camera and is ready to shoot.
> ...



Sorry, I mean the small LCD with WB, AF-drive, ISO
But, I get it. The photographer pressed the "view image" button and he is looking at the photo on the big LCD - but in a sidewards position.


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## JR (Jan 24, 2012)

There does not seem to be a lot of info trickling down to Graig on the ISO performance of this new camera. Could this mean the 5DmkII replacement will get a pro-grade AF, maybe a slitly new sensor, surely some improved video stuff but could retain the existing ISO performance, such that the 1DX *is  * the ISO champion for Canon as well as the speed deamon!

Anyone with thoughts on this one?


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## mathino (Jan 24, 2012)

JR said:


> There does not seem to be a lot of info trickling down to Graig on the ISO performance of this new camera. Could this mean the 5DmkII replacement will get a pro-grade AF, maybe a slitly new sensor, surely some improved video stuff but could retain the existing ISO performance, such that the 1DX *is  * the ISO champion for Canon as well as the speed deamon!
> 
> Anyone with thoughts on this one?



Well, until we will get some specs its really hard to say or guess what sensor this camera will have - and in this way also hard to guess ISO performance.

What I think, there surely will be some ISO improvements even if there will be a redesigned 5D Mk II sensor.

I hope for superb AF !


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## heron88 (Jan 24, 2012)

I'm pretty sure all Canon DSLRs, or at least all the current ones, simply have the Canon logo underneath the LCD. Why would they cover it with tape unless it was something different? If this was simply a 5d Mark II or 7D upgrade, surely it would just say Canon underneath the screen like everything else? I believe it's covered because what is actually there is something dealing with the Cinema EOS line, maybe that little red C is behind that tape somewhere, maybe it says Cinema EOS. 

Whatever it is, I see no reason for it to be covered unless it's something other than just the Canon logo. 

I think we're looking at the new Cinema EOS DSLR. 

Unless this is indeed a Canon leak and they put the tape there just to mess with us ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

heron88 said:


> Unless this is indeed a Canon leak and they put the tape there just to mess with us



I like the tape. Clearly it's intended to hide the Canon logo. Because attaching the camera to a big white lens give absolutely no clue as to its brand.


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## mathino (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> heron88 said:
> 
> 
> > Unless this is indeed a Canon leak and they put the tape there just to mess with us
> ...



   Exaclty, with white huge tele you really can't guess what brand it is


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## unfocused (Jan 24, 2012)

JR said:


> There does not seem to be a lot of info trickling down to Craig on the ISO performance of this new camera. Could this mean the 5DmkII replacement will get a pro-grade AF, maybe a slightly newer sensor, surely some improved video stuff but could retain the existing ISO performance, such that the 1DX *is  * the ISO champion for Canon as well as the speed demon!
> 
> Anyone with thoughts on this one?



Pretty much my thoughts exactly. The only thing Canon has to "fix" on the 5DII is the autofocus. They could probably even get away with recycling the current sensor (not saying they will, just that they could). I also agree that they will add some video improvements (I think Canon was shocked by how popular the 5DII became for low-budget video and they want to keep that market satisfied. It may amount to a small percentage of their buyers now, but the growth pattern is far healthier than the DSLR still market.)

I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?


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## mathino (Jan 24, 2012)

unfocused said:


> JR said:
> 
> 
> > There does not seem to be a lot of info trickling down to Craig on the ISO performance of this new camera. Could this mean the 5DmkII replacement will get a pro-grade AF, maybe a slightly newer sensor, surely some improved video stuff but could retain the existing ISO performance, such that the 1DX *is  * the ISO champion for Canon as well as the speed demon!
> ...



For me as a person who wants to upgrade to FF - definitely yes. I had 7D borrowed from my friend, AF was perfect (the best for me was this cluster type of 1 + 4 AF points) but ISO performance (as expected) was not something for low light work (I've found out that highest usable ISO was 3200 - for me). And on one Canon event I've had 5D Mk II, ISO performance was great but usable was only center AF point.

So a conclusion, for me, new 5D with just better AF will be ideal. I think as for many upgraders from xxxxD/xxxD/xxD lines.

As for someone looking for new camera (5D or 7D owners) this could be really a question. They can buy 7D or 5D Mk II as second body and have both features - IQ and AF. Even batteries for these cameras ar the same. For them, there must be something significant to upgrade to 5D Mk II-like-with-better-AF body.


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## JR (Jan 24, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?



This is a very good question. Speaking for myself if this camera was the only option I had other then going to the dark side (aka Nikon ) I might. However for my specific use I am also looking for some significant ISO improvement. This is why I beleive for me the viable option will be a 1DX.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?



If the price was the same as the 'usual' 5DII price (before the recent drops, i.e. ~US$2500) and the AF was _substantially_ improved, I would strongly consider it instead of the 1D X, especially with the second joystick on the battery grip. 12 fps would be nice, of course, but I don't have a real issue with the current 3.9 fps.

For me, it will depend on the nuances. I'm fortunate that budget isn't an overriding consideration - yes, I'd like to spend only $3K on camera+grip and leave $6K for lenses (differential from 1D X plus proceeds from sale of 5DII). But it would depend on how much of an upgrade the AF got, and probably also how improved the 1D X's ISO performance really is - Canon has claimed 2 stops for JPGs over the 1DIV, but then they've also claimed, "_A new photodiode structure with an increased photoelectric conversion rate increases the sensor's sensitivity by approximately 2 stops over previous models, meaning higher ISOs with the lowest noise of any EOS digital camera._" So, which is it? If it's two real stops of improvements due to sensor enhancements and thus reflected in the RAW files...an ISO 12800 that delivers similar noise as ISO 3200 on the 5DII would incline me to the 1D X.


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## leonedolci (Jan 24, 2012)

I am thinking another way around.

*Could it be a sort of "7D" (means strong AF and hi-speed) with APS-H sensor?*

- 7D is deemed as a lesser competitor vs. D300s due to AF and hi-ISO performance, hence the limited pricing space
- the old 1D series is gone for good and Canon has all the matured APS-H design and manufacture capability.
- if Nikon release a D800 with super high MP as rumored then Nikon has to fill the ~$2500 price tier with an APS body. A good 16MP APS-C sensor with 3500DX AF module is hard to beat for any 7D with small evolution.

Imagine 7D2 with modified 1D4 sensor:
- Better IQ vs. any APS-C sensor + comparable fast AF vs. new Dxxx = higher pricing power vs. Nikon APS flagship.
- support real Super35 format for budget video makers.
- low tech risk and comparatively low capital investment for an impressing new model in this line.

This is 2012, olympic year. I do think a semi-pro sports cam is a more attractive idea than upgrading hi-MP stills camera.

Just my 2cents.

- Leone


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## tt (Jan 24, 2012)

Would we have learnt anything if we'd seen the camera side on, showing the left hand side connections available?


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## D_Rochat (Jan 24, 2012)

leonedolci said:


> I am thinking another way around.
> 
> *Could it be a sort of "7D" (means strong AF and hi-speed) with APS-H sensor?*
> 
> ...



There you go being all logical.... You're going to anger all the crazy 7D APC-S fanatics by talking like that. 




neuroanatomist said:


> heron88 said:
> 
> 
> > Unless this is indeed a Canon leak and they put the tape there just to mess with us
> ...



I thought it was a Sony


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## fred_jb (Jan 24, 2012)

*Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Aspect ratio speculation*

I'd like to pick up on something mentioned in the original post - namely the apparent change in aspect ratio of the rear display. I've downloaded the RAW and this is clearly not due to distortion as the wheel and buttons all look perfectly circular. While looking at this and comparing to my own 5D II I also thought that the viewfinder was somewhat elongated.

Could this mean that the sensor actually has something other than a 3:2 aspect ratio, and is therefore even more biased towards video?

Fred


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## fotoray (Jan 24, 2012)

Seems to me that 5D3 would be introduced well before a 7D2. At least it's due sooner. 

The aspect ratio (looks to be 16x9) of the LCD strongly suggests video is a key priority of the new camera. 

I'd like to see a new 5D3 with the following:

FF 21 mp
same batteries as 5D2 and 7D
AF performance at least as good as the 7D
improved IQ in low light
double-exposure mode like new 1D X
option for 3, 5, or 7 shots in auto-bracketing mode


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## mathino (Jan 24, 2012)

fotoray said:


> Seems to me that 5D3 would be introduced well before a 7D2. At least it's due sooner.
> 
> The aspect ratio (looks to be 16x9) of the LCD strongly suggests video is a key priority of the new camera.
> 
> ...



Exactly as me


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## Mooose (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> heron88 said:
> 
> 
> > Unless this is indeed a Canon leak and they put the tape there just to mess with us
> ...



I thought it was a Sony 
[/quote]

It's clearly a Ricoh clone of a Canon camera.


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## Neeneko (Jan 24, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> once again, the "having video makes this camera worse for stills" argument
> I completely disagree



I do not think including video itself makes it 'worse', but pointing out that video is not just a 'free' feature. It eats development time, it eats limited resources on the camera, it eats testing time, it effects design decisions the impact the still photo side. To a limited degree, this is a zero sum case and, if the body did not include video, the same amount of resources being put into it likely would have produced a better still camera.

Naturally it could be argued that the increase in sales/demand for a dual purpose camera out weighs this and TBH I have no idea if it does or not.



> and I didn't hear any stills shooters complaining in the times of film, when you could buy better and vastly cheaper film stocks thanks to the huge demand for film by the movie industry
> just as "kodak should forget about stills and develop better film stocks for its main customer, the movie industry" was a dumb argument back then, "canon should forget about video and develop better stills cameras" is silly now



Not really the same thing. I do not think anyone is suggesting Canon should not product video cameras, or even dual function cameras, just that Canon should also produce cameras where the only function is still and thus all design decisions and hardware/firmware tradeoffs focus on still photography rather then 'it has to work well for both'. 

When you buy a dual use camera, you are paying for not only the increased manufacturing cost of including video capabilities and the R&D/Testing involved in a more complex device, but, as said, if this theory is true, you are paying for design decisions intended to benefit a whole class of use-cases that you (assuming one only wants stills) do not care about, and thus design decisions that focus on the other use cases probably would have designed it differently.

For reference, I spent years working in embedded systems (not cameras) and this was always a major point of contention, esp when marketing pushed for features that a certain percentage of customers wanted to be put into all models, even when those customers were already served by specialized models that met their use cases specifically. It was very frustrating from an engineering perspective.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

fotoray said:


> Seems to me that 5D3 would be introduced well before a 7D2. At least it's due sooner.



Based on what? An n=2 for the 5-series and an n=1 for the 7-series? One point isn't even enough for a trendline...



D_Rochat said:


> There you go being all logical.... You're going to anger all the crazy 7D APC-S fanatics by talking like that.



There won't be a 7-series with APS-H. Too confusing for EF-S compatibility. Does anyone really want to consult a table or other resource to determine which lenses will work with which bodies? Would any manufacturer push out such a confusing system to make things more complex for their customers? I mean, there's absolutely no precedent for that... :

But, nothing preculdes another line for a semi-pro APS-H camera...


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## V8Beast (Jan 24, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?



Hell yes, for me at least. I never bothered upgrading from the 5D to the 5DII because despite the increase in resolution, and slight bump in DR and ISO, Canon didn't address my biggest gripe with the 5D: the pathetic AF. If the 5DIII is essentially the same as a 5DII, with with a pro-caliber AF, I will cease all talk about defecting to Nikon and put in a pre-order for one ASAP. Of course, a couple more FPS would be nice, too 

I like everything about the 7D except the image quality, and I like everything about the 5DIII except the AF. I really hope there's some truth to these rumors, because it just makes too much sense.


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## marius (Jan 24, 2012)

I don't think this is a full-frame sensor camera. And so, no 5D Mark III ...
First, this camera has the battery grip integrated - the 5D Mark I (II) has not.
Second, I noticed that the "focal plane mark" is white and on the right side. All full frames camera (even 1D), 1D-s and 5D-s, have the mark on the left side. 
I think this may be a 7D mark II OR a totally new camera, but not a 5D Mark III :-\

Focal plane mark
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=d64387-1327427629.jpg


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## bigblue1ca (Jan 24, 2012)

This is all very entertaining with all the hype that has been generated. All I hope is they announce the 5DIII sooner than later. I was about to put a pre-order in on a 1DX when this all broke. If the 5DIII has some improvements in ISO, FPS, and picks up the AF of the 7D as people are speculating, I would be highly inclined to buy it over the 1DX and take my savings and put it towards glass. I need a good AF system, okay FPS, and decent low light ISO capabilities. A one stop ISO improvement in the 5DIII over the 5DII, the 7Ds AF system, and somewhere in the 5-7 FPS range would be right up my alley. 

I think in one of the other threads on the 5DIII (I think there are three on the go now) I saw Neuro hypothesizing about if Canon would leave the 1DX as the top of the line flagship model, but let the 5DIII come in just slightly below in terms of features. It's certainly an interesting question. 

Canon likely has a pretty good idea that they'll automatically sell X units of the 1DX to pros sports/photo journalists, etc, based on previous flag ship sales. The question is if they blend the 5DII and 7D, and add a few improvements and create the 5DIII and sell it for $3000 less than the 1DX, will the extra units they would undoubtedly sell of improved 5DIII make up for the lost sales from those (like me) who would have otherwise bought the 1DX?


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## D_Rochat (Jan 24, 2012)

I see what you're saying neuro, but I don't think it's too far out there to think that Canon may be restructuring their Pro line and pushing the APC-S and EF-S down to a more Prosumer XXD line. I might think differently if they start to produce red ring EF-S lenses.


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## mkln (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> I don't think this is a full-frame sensor camera. And so, no 5D Mark III ...
> First, this camera has the battery grip integrated - the 5D Mark I (II) has not.
> Second, I noticed that the "focal plane mark" is white and on the right side. All full frames camera (even 1D), 1D-s and 5D-s, have the mark on the left side.
> I think this may be a 7D mark II OR a totally new camera, but not a 5D Mark III :-\
> ...



The battery grip is not integrated, the dented thing under the LCD is the attachment screw between body and grip

I wonder tho where you insert the batteries.
Could it be a wifi grip?


----------



## marius (Jan 24, 2012)

mkln said:


> marius said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think this is a full-frame sensor camera. And so, no 5D Mark III ...
> ...




I think is integrated:
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=411be0-1327429194.jpg

... but something like this (on the left side):
http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS1DMarkIV/Images/battery.jpg


----------



## awinphoto (Jan 24, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?



Hmmm define "major"  Depends... the 5d2 is a great camera but the AF in it currently makes it fell psychologically like a dinosaur. Like what digirev said in the comparison of the 7d vs 5d2, after using the 7d, the 5d2 AF is "depressing". There are other nuances with the 7D which, like going into a sharper image store, you didn't know you needed... Like for me, levels is a must and I think there's no wall in heck they wouldn't add it in, at least in the LCD if not the viewfinder. I do a lot of product, a lot of architecture, panoramas, and levels is so much better and easier than having a bubble level on the hot shoe. Weathersealing... I've taken my 7d out in snow storms, rain, etc and haven't worried about what if... (with a sealed lens). I'm sure the 5d2 could handle moisture but, like with the xxd cameras when I used them, you always have that nagging doubt which inevitably cuts your shoot in half before you probably could last. Lastly, flash commander... With no pop-up, I have no idea how they wish to incorporate this, but it really would be an awesome feature if they add it in. Also keep that MFN button and dial lock and we got ourselves a perfect camera for me. Otherwise I'll have to weigh if it's worth the upgrade or not.


----------



## awinphoto (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> mkln said:
> 
> 
> > marius said:
> ...



The first link clearly shows the screw in wheel that connects the grip to the camera.. it is not integrated, however it can be the closest sealed grip made to date tho.


----------



## mathino (Jan 24, 2012)

mkln said:


> marius said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think this is a full-frame sensor camera. And so, no 5D Mark III ...
> ...



As mentioned before, batteries could be put from side. Or this could be a Wifi/GPS grip as you suggest.


----------



## well_dunno (Jan 24, 2012)

Oh well, apparently Stephen Oachs received accusations for sharing the info and had to post a follow up stating that the images he posted are not fake and that he is not a Canon employee...

If all that is true, I would not be posting anything of the kind again in his shoes. I don't know how many clicks aperture academy got since yesterday though... ;D

Cheers!


----------



## DzPhotography (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Based on what? An n=2 for the 5-series and an n=1 for the 7-series? One point isn't even enough for a trendline...


maybe because the 5D MkII is one of the oldest models in the canon line-up? :


----------



## doug13 (Jan 24, 2012)

well_dunno said:


> Oh well, apparently Stephen Oachs received accusations for sharing the info and had to post a follow up stating that the images he posted are not fake and that he is not a Canon employee...
> 
> If all that is true, I would not be posting anything of the kind again in his shoes. I don't know how many clicks aperture academy got since yesterday though... ;D
> 
> Cheers!



1,279,588


----------



## Kernuak (Jan 24, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Based on what? An n=2 for the 5-series and an n=1 for the 7-series? One point isn't even enough for a trendline...
> ...


But countering that, the 7D is the second oldest and there are a number of high profile sports events coming this year (e.g. Olympics and European Championsips, for which Canon is a major sponsor). Of course, it could be neither .
In fact the 1D MkIV was newer than both.


----------



## maciej.urbanski (Jan 24, 2012)

3x3 oversampling is more a curse than a blessing in RGB sensor with Bayer filter matrix.
Let's consider 6x6 block of pixels that will be downsampled to 2x2 pixels for video:

GRG RGR
BGB GBG
GRG RGR

BGB GBG
GRG RGR
BGB GBG


Statistics for those points are:

upper left: 2R, 5G, 2B
upper right: 4R, 4G, 1B
lower left: 1R, 4G, 4B
lower right: 2R, 5G, 2B

From years of experience in image processing algorithms i can honestly tell you - this is no picnic. It would be better to just use 2x2 oversampling like in C300 (http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/white_papers/EOS_C300_New_35mm_CMOS_Sensor_WP.pdf, figures 5,6 on pages 8,9).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

mkln said:


> The battery grip is not integrated, the dented thing under the LCD is the attachment screw between body and grip





marius said:


> I think is integrated



Well, no, it's not. But if you think it's integrated, what do you think that knurled thumbwheel on the grip with "lock" printed next to it will unlock if turned in the direction opposite the arrow?


----------



## Mooose (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> mkln said:
> 
> 
> > The battery grip is not integrated, the dented thing under the LCD is the attachment screw between body and grip
> ...



a magical megapixel dial?


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 24, 2012)

It has a battery grip, the left end appears to be where the battery is inserted, but its only a guess. See crops below.

The controls on the left make the camera look like its definitely a video tool. I wonder if that blue logo is for sending the memory card contents to the network?

There is a image of a bird on the screen, as well as a overlay for control setting on the right side. it took a little work in lightroom to pull it up.


----------



## Dianoda (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> fotoray said:
> 
> 
> > Seems to me that 5D3 would be introduced well before a 7D2. At least it's due sooner.
> ...



Sure, why not? Just call it a 3D...

I'm all for a semi-pro/enthusiast sports cam with APS-H - think of it as the spiritual successor to 1D/7D. Just make sure it can AF at F8, similar to 7D for frame-rate/AF system and the 5DII or better for ISO and price around $3-3.5K - I guarantee the wildlife guys/birders will come in droves ;D

edit: Hmmm, on second thought, maybe closer to $2.7K would be the sweet spot for such a camera.


----------



## awinphoto (Jan 24, 2012)

Comparing those pics with the 7D, it appears they switched the styles button with the rate button... ehhh... guess for me it will be the new direct print button joke... shifting the info button up next to menu... ok... I wonder what that top corner button is that looks like a paint brush... perhaps it will have in-camera editing/cropping, etc...? I also wonder IF you load batteries in the side of the grip like others have suggested, if it will accept 1 battery or 2 or if it would have a new batter for the grip like the 1d series battery?


----------



## Blaze (Jan 24, 2012)

Yep, the LCD definitely isn't blank.

Oh, it looks like Mt. Spokane beat me to it.


----------



## marius (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> mkln said:
> 
> 
> > The battery grip is not integrated, the dented thing under the LCD is the attachment screw between body and grip
> ...



Of course, the battery grip is integrated and not the battery itself. Therefore it has to be a "lock" there. Its not on the left but in the middle.
Here is on the left:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E1DMK4/ZBATT-L.JPG
If not ... how do you explain that is no delimitation between the camera itself and the grip?
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=8b9fcb-1327434732.jpg
If this is o battery grip or WIFI or GPS, this was not the main point.
The main poit is that the 5D Mark-s have no (integrated) grip at all.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> If not ... how do you explain that is no delimitation between the camera itself and the grip?



There's not? What's that by his thumb?


----------



## mkln (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > mkln said:
> ...



Nah, the design of all grip-included cameras is different from this one. They are completely flat there (with an LCD screen)
This looks just like the 7d / 5d with grip.
Also you can see the separation - the line that goes from one side to the other is just where the body ends and the grip begins.
Also, the lock and the screw
Also, my question on the battery is due to how I remember wifi grips are: they don't substitute the battery (never owned one though,but this is not the point anyway)

I think the confusion comes from the picture being taken at an angle such that the body shadows the grip a little and you can't perfectly see the separation.


----------



## mkln (Jan 24, 2012)

By the way, you guys were talking about EOS cinema..
But wasn't the EOS cinema camera in development supposed to be 4K?

How does the 3x3 thingythingy work with 4K?


----------



## lecoupdejarnac (Jan 24, 2012)

I think the most surprising detail is the lack of a flip-out LCD screen. I would've expected both a 5DIII or a 7DII to have that. If this camera has a strong emphasis on video, wouldn't a flip-out LCD be a great feature for video?

And the 7D currently competes with the 60D because of similar sensor performance. I would expect a 7D successor to have a flip-out LCD to stand tall above the XXD line.

I also think it seems unlikely that they would take away the pop-up flash for a 7D successor. Yes, they are no substitute for an external flashgun but work great for fill-in when traveling light.


----------



## marius (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> marius said:
> 
> 
> > If not ... how do you explain that is no delimitation between the camera itself and the grip?
> ...



... maybe an ergonomic gap for the thumb?! I dont know.
I can't see whats behind the thumb. Do you?


----------



## Craig Richardson (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > marius said:
> ...



Marius, are you insisting that the grip is a permanent part of the body? I clearly see the separation between the grip and the body and the big locking wheel.


----------



## EYEONE (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > marius said:
> ...



The arrow is pointing to the crack between the camera and the battery grip. But even that isn't as telling as the wheel. Have you ever used a camera with a battery grip? Every one of them has a wheel exactly like the one on this grip that is used to attach and tighten the grip to the body.

This is like arguing about whether or not this camera is digital or film... It clearly is just a battery grip.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> Every one of them has a wheel exactly like the one on this grip that is used to attach and tighten the grip to the body.
> 
> This is like arguing about whether or not this camera is digital or film... It clearly is just a battery grip.



But this is a whole new camera. Maybe the lock wheel unlocks something completely different. The pearly gates, the door to the 5th dimension, heck, maybe they've decided to change over to a new thread mount for all their lenses, called EF-T, and this locking wheel is what you need to turn to unmount the lens. It's pure coincidence that it's the same type of wheel and in the same place as on every other Canon battery grip. There is no line separating the grip from the body. There are five lights, not four. Clearly, we can see what we want.


----------



## 2likru (Jan 24, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?



The answer to your question is yes. That is why I am positive that the new 5d will have the 7d's autofocus and pretty much everything else about the 7d's viewfinder and ergonomics. Everything else could be questioned including the megapixel count (I'm betting 18mp), the DR improvement, the noise improvement, and dust and weather sealing. Actually, I'm pretty sure a new 5d model will not have dust and weather sealing.


----------



## marius (Jan 24, 2012)

Maybe, maybe ...

On the other hand, I still believe that this is not a 5D Mark III. Is remain the argument that the "focal plane mark" is on the right side and not the left side.
And why would 5D Mark III be tested with a 200-400 lens and a 600 lens (wildlife too)?! This suits better to a really fast focus camera like 7D or something new.


----------



## canonds (Jan 24, 2012)

But this is a whole new camera. Maybe the lock wheel unlocks something completely different. The pearly gates, the door to the 5th dimension, heck, maybe they've decided to change over to a new thread mount for all their lenses, called EF-T, and this locking wheel is what you need to turn to unmount the lens. It's pure coincidence that it's the same type of wheel and in the same place as on every other Canon battery grip. There is no line separating the grip from the body. There are five lights, not four. Clearly, we can see what we want. 
[/quote]

You mean there's a 4th dimension!!?? I gotta catch up on my dimensions....
lol...what wit!


Hi all, just joined. Sure am enjoying reading all the interesting points of view on the idendity of the new body.


But i have to say - its so not an integrated grip...


----------



## Drizzt321 (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> Maybe, maybe ...
> 
> On the other hand, I still believe that this is not a 5D Mark III. Is remain the argument that the "focal plane mark" is on the right side and not the left side.
> And why would 5D Mark III be tested with a 200-400 lens and a 600 lens (wildlife too)?! This suits better to a really fast focus camera like 7D or something new.



If, like the vast majority of us want, it's a 5Dm3 with a vastly improved AF system (7D or better), that would then give the fast focusing system you're talking about.

Note, I'm not a wildlife shooter, so I don't really know if they prefer crop or FF cameras, but I do have the 5Dm2. And am very much wishing for a much improved AF system.


----------



## EYEONE (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> Maybe, maybe ...
> 
> On the other hand, I still believe that this is not a 5D Mark III. Is remain the argument that the "focal plane mark" is on the right side and not the left side.
> And why would 5D Mark III be tested with a 200-400 lens and a 600 lens (wildlife too)?! This suits better to a really fast focus camera like 7D or something new.



Who is to say that the 5DIII won't be a fast focusing camera? Maybe faster than the 7D since a 5DIII prototype would actually be _newer_ than the 7D.

I've heard people talk about the focal plane mark before. And I just don't understand that argument. It's not a critical factor of a FF camera. Canon could certainly put the focal place mark on the bottom of the camera if they wanted to. It really doesn't matter where it is. Heck, are we going to argue that the T3i and the 7D can't have the same sensor because they have different looking focal plane marks? Oh, the T3i's is just a dash but the 7D's has a circle on it! What does it mean?!


----------



## 2likru (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > Every one of them has a wheel exactly like the one on this grip that is used to attach and tighten the grip to the body.
> ...



And I present you sir with the laugh of the day award.


----------



## Craig Richardson (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> Maybe, maybe ...
> 
> On the other hand, I still believe that this is not a 5D Mark III. Is remain the argument that the "focal plane mark" is on the right side and not the left side.
> And why would 5D Mark III be tested with a 200-400 lens and a 600 lens (wildlife too)?! This suits better to a really fast focus camera like 7D or something new.



Wildlife photography was done well before autofocus, let alone "fast" autofocus was invented. The fact they are making pictures of birds does not disqualify this as being a 5D mk iii. Your implication that long lenses have no place on full frame cameras is perplexing.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 24, 2012)

unfocused said:


> JR said:
> 
> 
> > There does not seem to be a lot of info trickling down to Craig on the ISO performance of this new camera. Could this mean the 5DmkII replacement will get a pro-grade AF, maybe a slightly newer sensor, surely some improved video stuff but could retain the existing ISO performance, such that the 1DX *is  * the ISO champion for Canon as well as the speed demon!
> ...



Frame rate and response are painfully slow though, worse than the 40D and 50D. With 1DX at 12-14fps they have lots of room to bump 5 series up to full 50D speed certainly.


----------



## maciej.urbanski (Jan 24, 2012)

I've played some with Photoshop.

Basically I've tried to distort image of alleged mk3 and layer it on top of mk2.
It's far from perfect 5min hackjob, but it seems that it is in fact mk3. most button positions match, LCD dimensions are the same... I'm optimistic.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> marius said:
> 
> 
> > Is remain the argument that the "focal plane mark" is on the right side and not the left side.
> ...



Also, the battery level indicator on the top LCD is on the right side instead of the left side. Eureka! Canon is releasing a new line of cameras specifically designed for left-handed people. Of course, that probably means they'll have to rename their L series lenses as well, so we don't confuse those as working only on this new left-handed camera. Apologies if anyone finds that argument too sinister. :


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 24, 2012)

Neeneko said:


> NormanBates said:
> 
> 
> > once again, the "having video makes this camera worse for stills" argument
> ...



OTOH they seem to be putting all the effort they can into stills AF and sensor tech anyway and all the rest of the body stuff is really all just down to marketing. They had way more tech than went into the 5D2, they just didn't use it. So I don't think video has really caused much suffering for stills (only possibly thing might be they need super fast reads for video and that might impact sensor design, although for the high speed 1 series at 14fps it might not matter much there).



> Naturally it could be argued that the increase in sales/demand for a dual purpose camera out weighs this and TBH I have no idea if it does or not.



Some have claimed the 5D2 actually sold many more copies as a video priority camera than a pure stills priority camera so perhaps, who knows.


----------



## oktaydotca (Jan 24, 2012)

I say it is a 7D successor (or 5DIII has now crop abilities). Otherwise why would they test their longest lenses 200-400 and 600mm on a full frame camera?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> mkln said:
> 
> 
> > marius said:
> ...



Ugh it almost does look integrated, my worst nightmare.
It will do everything perfectly, except once again only in forced brick size. 
Why would cinema camera have built-in grip, so this may also point against it being cinema camera.
Maybe it is the digital EOS 3, but they forget the EOS 3 was EOS 3 because it could be made nice and light and small.

EDIT: HAH, wait but what about the detachable grip wheel and lock? Why on earth would it have those if it was built-in that makes no sense at all. It has to be detachable. It must just be a jpg smoothing artifact covering the seam or something.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

oktaydotca said:


> I say it is a 7D successor (or 5DIII has now crop abilities). Otherwise why would they test their longest lenses 200-400 and 600mm on a full frame camera?



Did you not notice that they were also testing those lenses, or at least the 200-400mm, on the 1D X - that's a full frame camera, isn't it?


----------



## oktaydotca (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> oktaydotca said:
> 
> 
> > I say it is a 7D successor (or 5DIII has now crop abilities). Otherwise why would they test their longest lenses 200-400 and 600mm on a full frame camera?
> ...



1DX is dual mode camera no?


----------



## bigblue1ca (Jan 24, 2012)

oktaydotca said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > oktaydotca said:
> ...



If you mean it has a built in crop feature like the Nikon, no.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 24, 2012)

maciej.urbanski said:


> 3x3 oversampling is more a curse than a blessing in RGB sensor with Bayer filter matrix.
> Let's consider 6x6 block of pixels that will be downsampled to 2x2 pixels for video:
> 
> GRG RGR
> ...



Yeah, as even Canon has said they want ideal video to be done from either 2x2 or 4x4 sampling only.


----------



## zim (Jan 24, 2012)

I’ve taken really accurate measurements of the distance of the focal plane mark to the LCD screen and I can say with absolute confidence that this is not a film camera…… :


----------



## marius (Jan 24, 2012)

Craig Richardson said:


> Wildlife photography was done well before autofocus, let alone "fast" autofocus was invented. The fact they are making pictures of birds does not disqualify this as being a 5D mk iii.


Indeed.


Craig Richardson said:


> Your implication that long lenses have no place on full frame cameras is perplexing.


"No place .." are your words. I only said it suits better with a faster focus camera.
By the way, I use my Canon 5D Mark II with long lenses for wildlife and I know what this mean.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > mkln said:
> ...



Because that photo was processed weird. Looking at a better version, you can see that under the overhang it is possible there is a seam, although it seems to be a nicer fit than all the other external grips.
And you wouldn't lock the battery in with that sort of dial there.


----------



## well_dunno (Jan 24, 2012)

Do we have a better idea on when we will see this camera or is it still 'might be any time from February to Photokina'?..

Anyone with past experience who could take a qualified guess?

Cheers!


----------



## oktaydotca (Jan 24, 2012)

The grip on this camera is not intregrated. Let's agree on that.
The battery seems to be loaded from the sides though (which is seems to be a new design for 5D or 7D).


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 24, 2012)

lecoupdejarnac said:


> I think the most surprising detail is the lack of a flip-out LCD screen. I would've expected both a 5DIII or a 7DII to have that. If this camera has a strong emphasis on video, wouldn't a flip-out LCD be a great feature for video?
> 
> And the 7D currently competes with the 60D because of similar sensor performance. I would expect a 7D successor to have a flip-out LCD to stand tall above the XXD line.
> 
> I also think it seems unlikely that they would take away the pop-up flash for a 7D successor. Yes, they are no substitute for an external flashgun but work great for fill-in when traveling light.



I think it hints that it will be every bit as stills oriented as it is video oriented. A really solid all rounder, better than 7D AF, 40D/50D speed+, video at least as good as on the 1DX with a few things that make it easier than the 1DX to use as a video camera perhaps. Only perhaps lacking in effective reach and max detail if it is a 1dX sensor re-use. Then the 5DX2 does it all by adding in the high MP some years down the line.


----------



## Craig Richardson (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Apologies if anyone finds that argument too sinister. :



Pun of the day!


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:



> Maybe, maybe ...
> 
> On the other hand, I still believe that this is not a 5D Mark III. Is remain the argument that the "focal plane mark" is on the right side and not the left side.
> And why would 5D Mark III be tested with a 200-400 lens and a 600 lens (wildlife too)?! This suits better to a really fast focus camera like 7D or something new.



Who says this won't focus as fast or faster and better than the 7D?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 24, 2012)

oktaydotca said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > oktaydotca said:
> ...



I don't think so and what would it matter? It won't magically squeeze 18MP in APS_C size area and get more effective reach. And also note they were using 600mm not 300mm ;D.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 24, 2012)

zim said:


> I’ve taken really accurate measurements of the distance of the focal plane mark to the LCD screen and I can say with absolute confidence that this is not a film camera…… :



I believe it may, in fact, be a mirror-less 5/8th system.


----------



## marius (Jan 24, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Who says this won't focus as fast or faster and better than the 7D?



Who says this will focus as fast or faster and better than the 7D?


----------



## Craig Richardson (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Who says this won't focus as fast or faster and better than the 7D?
> ...



How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


----------



## marius (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Apologies if anyone finds that argument too sinister. :



Apologies accepted ;D


----------



## oktaydotca (Jan 24, 2012)

Usually (not always) in order to show the reach I am thinking they may need to use their crop.
Also since 1DX abandoned the pro crop line ie APS-H I am thinking for London Olympics Canon needs a new crop (a better one than what is in their line up now) to fill the gap?

PS: I want it to be 5DMK3 still (will never buy a crop again after using my 5DC and 5DII)


----------



## EYEONE (Jan 24, 2012)

marius said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Who says this won't focus as fast or faster and better than the 7D?
> ...



The point is you were argui---

I don't care.


----------



## Mooose (Jan 24, 2012)

I've ascertained from the picture of the LCD display of the bird that this prototype camera has at least 100MP! This is based on the following assumptions:

1. the LCD has at least a pixel count of the 7D (921,600 pixels) and has approximate dimensions of 1174 x 785 pixels (3:2)
2. the professional Canon photographer is not a pixel peeper (he's not viewing at over 1:1)

My calculations are based on the small box showing that approximately 1/7th- 1/8th of image's narrow edge is being displayed which would put the resolution at least 12327 x 8218 or 101,303,286 total pixels.


----------



## well_dunno (Jan 24, 2012)

Mooose said:


> I've ascertained from the picture of the LCD display of the bird that this prototype camera has at least 100MP! This is based on the following assumptions:
> 
> 1. the LCD has at least a pixel count of the 7D (921,600 pixels) and has approximate dimensions of 1174 x 785 pixels (3:2)
> 2. the professional Canon photographer is not a pixel peeper (he's not viewing at over 1:1)
> ...


lol


----------



## nikkito (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> mkln said:
> 
> 
> > The battery grip is not integrated, the dented thing under the LCD is the attachment screw between body and grip
> ...



That moves the Island.


----------



## EYEONE (Jan 24, 2012)

nikkito said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > mkln said:
> ...



hahaha, yes! Canon has finally included the frozen donkey wheel!


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 24, 2012)

From FM, someone says they were told:

18.1 Megapixel full frame -CMOS-sensor
6.3 fps
100% viewfinder
100,000 pixel RGB AE
iFCL
100-51200 ISO
19 cross type AF-system (with DIGIC 4 co-processor)
Full-HD EOS-movie (1080p)
single DIGIC 5+ processor (and DIGIC 4 co-processor)
3.2 inch Clear View II LCD 1040k dots
mini HDMI
LP-E6 1800mAh
2899$ intro


That sounds entirely reasonably actually. 18MP vs 32MP is a bit of a shame but I guess they need to leave something for the 5DX Mark II in a few years (or maybe a more expensive 5DX+ in a year, same as 5DX but with dual-digic 5+ and 32MP ???).


----------



## Edwin Herdman (Jan 24, 2012)

Edit - didn't realize the RAW being mentioned was just a 1Ds III RAW. In any case, I think that Canon definitely has changed their stance on leaks - the Canon employee's attitude certainly puts a poke in the eye of sites that are abiding by the NDA, but people get pretty excited by the sight of new lenses, and in this case Canon still has control over the opinions out there, by controlling the facts that can be gathered (previews could signal the lenses and camera are "just okay" or "great, but not worth it in these troubled times," whereas you can't say that with just a picture of the item in action) .

Very interesting times. I wonder if we'll be able to recognize any photos from the Kenya shoot in the upcoming camera manuals?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> From FM, someone says they were told:
> 
> 18.1 Megapixel full frame -CMOS-sensor
> 6.3 fps
> ...



My friend Bob's cousin's sister's uncle told a stranger who told my old 3rd grade teacher who told me...

Sorry, I call BS. 



> 100,000 pixel RGB AE
> iFCL



The 100,000 pixel RGB AE sensor is a 1D X innovation, which they've named iSA, whereas iFCL refers to the older 63-zone metering system (color and luminance sensitive, not full RGB), found in the 7D. Two generations of metering systems in the same camera? Bob lied. Or maybe my 3rd grade teacher. Someone. BS.


----------



## Edwin Herdman (Jan 24, 2012)

I'd just like to point out that this is being posted by somebody with skin in the game, who would have respected the Canon engineer's wishes if he had asked them not to leak the information out of respect (though that would've reflected sloppiness on Canon's part, so their honesty is refreshing and our respect well-deserved in this matter). We have gotten pretty used to the "father's brother's cousin's nephew's former roommate" rumor mongering without anybody having any skin in the game besides CR. So CR Guy does pretty well sorting out the true and the false so we don't have to, but this is a totally different thing altogether.

Does it matter that somebody had to leak the Nikon D800 (supposedly, still) with missing labels and so on? Not really, that's just business as usual. Of course you have to consider the possibility that Canon had considered (even perhaps wanted) these photos could leak, and of course they have greater control over what's going to be said, because news outlets are under NDA and all we see are a couple pretty lenses and a nice-looking camera - no hesitant sentences in a preview to mull over. It looks good overall, however.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > From FM, someone says they were told:
> ...



Who knows, we'll, sometimes a weird thing like that is put in as the person tries to protect themselves while leaking.

Although, I do see they left out the frozen donkey wheel for time travel, so perhaps you are right. Not credible.


----------



## nikkito (Jan 25, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> nikkito said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


+1
The spotted japanese guy Is actually Benjamin Linus


----------



## briansquibb (Jan 25, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I posted on another thread, but will ask the question here as well: if the autofocus is the only major upgrade, is that enough for people to buy the 5DIII?



Put the 1Ds3 AF in the 7D and there would be no point in the 7D except the crop


----------



## wellfedCanuck (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> new left-handed camera. Apologies if anyone finds that argument too sinister. :


only those who are maladroit... (argh, argh)


----------



## libertyranger (Jan 25, 2012)

nikkito said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > nikkito said:
> ...



Winning! I almost burst out loud laughing when I read that (had to keep it in though because I'm in class)


----------



## mkln (Jan 25, 2012)

oktaydotca said:


> I say it is a 7D successor (or 5DIII has now crop abilities). Otherwise why would they test their longest lenses 200-400 and 600mm on a full frame camera?


otherwise no other photographer could take pics of the prototype..

btw what about 4k video?
wasnt the canon cinema camera supposed to have it?


----------



## mhunt (Jan 25, 2012)

mkln said:


> oktaydotca said:
> 
> 
> > I say it is a 7D successor (or 5DIII has now crop abilities). Otherwise why would they test their longest lenses 200-400 and 600mm on a full frame camera?
> ...



C300 is not 4k much to many's disappointment.


----------



## AprilForever (Jan 25, 2012)

libertyranger said:


> nikkito said:
> 
> 
> > EYEONE said:
> ...



Indeed!!! ;D


----------



## JR (Jan 25, 2012)

mkln said:


> btw what about 4k video?
> wasnt the canon cinema camera supposed to have it?





 mhunt said:


> C300 is not 4k much to many's disappointment.



Could be indeed the new Cinema DSLR but I would be surprised they would be so advanced in its development however. If I recall last October they mention they would eventually make one but would not expect it right away. The cool thing would be a 4k camera mean it would have 36+MP for sure, so a good head to head battle for the high MP lovers and competitor to the D800!

I think we are too early for this one, but we cant rule it out either!


----------



## jrista (Jan 25, 2012)

Wow! This thing set off a speculative shitstorm! 

I'm curious why anyone thinks its a 5D III/X or 7D II at all? I would imagine that Canon prototypes a whole lot of possibilities before settling on one particular prototype they will actually mass manufacture. Could this not simply be "Prototypical Option ABC", being tested in a variety of real-world situations against real-world subjects? There are some interesting changes to button layout (magnifying glass on the left side, quick access button moved near the back dial...which IMO is a WAY better spot for it), and some intriguing new buttons like the paint brush (maybe just an alternative icon for picture style...or maybe something wholly new like in-camera editing?)

Anyway...I just think its not necessarily a slam dunk that the camera in question is actually THE successor for either the 5D II or 7D. I think its just as, if not more, plausible its simply an experimental prototype that Canon is using to test out new tech and options. It could be an option for either the 5D III or 7D II, or maybe the mythical 3D...or an even more mythical 9D (APS-H sports body?) Seems logical to me that Canon would be prototyping all the time, in every situation and combination possible. Hell, it might even be some special body they use for testing out lenses, and is never intended to be a production-grade camera at all. ;-)


----------



## Neeneko (Jan 25, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Some have claimed the 5D2 actually sold many more copies as a video priority camera than a pure stills priority camera so perhaps, who knows.



This would not surprise me... though I suspect what is happening now is since the 5D2 did so well as a dual use someone in upper management has mandated that all models be dual use now... which means all cameras are video recorders, yet they just produced a new video-only device.

This type of 'X did really well, convert everything to X!' can really hurt a product line long term.. if they are not careful their whole line will become 'video, some with still capture capability'.


----------



## marius (Jan 25, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> libertyranger said:
> 
> 
> > nikkito said:
> ...



Hehehe ;D
Well, if you turn it in the opposite direction, your Canon will "transform" in Conan ... the destroyer


----------



## jrista (Jan 25, 2012)

Neeneko said:


> This type of 'X did really well, convert everything to X!' can really hurt a product line long term.. if they are not careful their whole line will become 'video, some with still capture capability'.



If they are not careful...but I think Canon is pretty well tuned in to their markets, and I doubt they would make such a major mistake.


----------



## photogaz (Jan 25, 2012)

Isn't it Ironic that the new camera gear was spotted using camera gear. 

Canon "Even we can't hide from our amazing lenses"


----------



## Randl (Jan 25, 2012)

I'd prefer to see 16-24MP, good DD, colours and low-ISO performance instead of low-light, 14fps and great video in of the new FF cameras(5D3 or 3D)


----------



## cmac (Jan 25, 2012)

Hi, just to be quick - looking at the usual bayer pattern, I find it difficult for anyone to see what 3x3 could have GOOD in it.

OK. First 3x3 has 5 greens and then 2 reds and 2 blues, next 3x3 has 4 reds 4 greens and 1 blue...
Then the Processor would go wild in balancing these pixels. I thing that this is too much for the modern CPU's to handle.
The better way it should work is : RAW -> De-Bayer -> Scale. Much more simple for hardware implementation. Better parallelised.
The biggest effort could be to pack 2x2, 4x4, 6x6 etc. Still the reading from the sensor should be organized accordingly.

As for having a 5D MKIII or whatever with 22 MP -> Backlit CMOS could lead to much lower noise at higher iso.
If they provide 22 MP with much better noise, better pixel quality and Dynamic range - i'm in.


----------



## Flake (Jan 25, 2012)

jrista said:


> Neeneko said:
> 
> 
> > This type of 'X did really well, convert everything to X!' can really hurt a product line long term.. if they are not careful their whole line will become 'video, some with still capture capability'.
> ...



I have a slightly different take, that Canon is pretty well tuned in to its accounting needs. It knows that DSLR sales are slowing after phenomenal early uptake, and that improvements are now incremental rather than the massive leaps of earlier days. This is why I believe that we are seeing huge price increases on new like for like products, I also believe that the materials being used are cheaper than those they replace, (plastic bodies replacing alloy on long lenses?).

Hopefully the 5D MkII replacement will address those shortcomings that almost everyone complains about, especially the autofocus, and for that reason alone I think the replacement will be a big seller, but it might well be the last one that is. I am hearing a lot of Nikon users saying that they are not going to upgrade to the D4, still more have concerns over the file sizes which will result from a 36MP sensor in a possible D800, so large that stock libraries will not accept them without downsizing.

For me I'd upgrade from the 5D MkII if the only change was a decent autofocus (providing it doesn't cost the earth), anything else is a bonus, 21MP is enough for all the applications I have and if I really really need more I can hire a MF camera. 22MP would be a nice size, particularly if noise & dynamic range are improved.


----------



## willrobb (Jan 25, 2012)

On safari, long tele-zoom....hope whatever the guy was using had better AF than the current 5DmkII


----------



## wellfedCanuck (Jan 25, 2012)

wellfedCanuck said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > new left-handed camera. Apologies if anyone finds that argument too sinister. :
> ...



More smites for this?! C'mon guys- sinister is latin for left-handed, maladroit is a commonly-borrowed french term for the same attribute. Sheesh, have a sense of humour...


----------



## ro_n (Jan 25, 2012)

wellfedCanuck said:


> wellfedCanuck said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


For sure, these smites are for NOT changing your avatar to that pink thingy you suggested elsewhere. ;D

btw: long time lurker, first time poster...


----------



## motorhead (Jan 25, 2012)

I am hearing a lot of Nikon users saying that they are not going to upgrade to the D4, still more have concerns over the file sizes which will result from a 36MP sensor in a possible D800, so large that stock libraries will not accept them without downsizing.
[/quote]

From my own experience, as MP numbers climb, so do picture library requirements. No names, no pack drill, but I know of more than one that unless a contributor uses a 1DS3 or 5D2, even an uncropped image is not big enough.

So decisions made on current picture library requirements is a bit silly.


----------



## necator (Jan 25, 2012)

DramaMask said:


> It doesn't make any sense for Canon to develop a another full frame sensor in addition to the 18MP sensor of the 1D X. Using the same sensor as the 1D X is the only thing that makes sense from a cost point of view. Canon is not a charity, they are in the market to make money.



To all who are thinking that the next 5D will inevitable have the same sensor, since everything else will be canons ruin:
*None* of the 5D sensors have ever been the same as those from the 1Ds line.

The 5d had 12.8MP while the 1DsMK2 had 16.6MP.
The 5dMK2 has a similar sensor like the 1DsMK3, but not *the same*: DPReview says:


> 21.1 megapixel full frame CMOS sensor
> The EOS 5D Mark II delivers an 8.3 megapixel jump in pixel count from the original 5D. This new sensor is said to be based on that of the EOS-1Ds Mark III (indeed it has exactly the same pixel count) but has several small changes, the hint being that it's actually slightly better.




So, alltogether, history convinces me more that the 5dMKwhatever will have a different sensor. 

What, to be honest, I never understood within canons policy was the 7D. The 3rd cropped line sharing the same sensor. I'd hve awited that canon would bring a 7D with 1.3 crop back then, but they didn't. Now I don't understand what the xxD-Line is good for. But hey, canon knows how to make money


----------



## EYEONE (Jan 25, 2012)

necator said:


> DramaMask said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't make any sense for Canon to develop a another full frame sensor in addition to the 18MP sensor of the 1D X. Using the same sensor as the 1D X is the only thing that makes sense from a cost point of view. Canon is not a charity, they are in the market to make money.
> ...



I agree that the 5DIII won't have the same sensor as the 1Dx. Perhaps I should revise that. I think the 5DIII _shouldn't_ have the same sensor, but I'm not convinced that it won't anyway. The 1DsIII and the 5DII's sensors were close enough to be counted as "the same" IMO. But that was a bit of a problem for Canon wasn't it? Canon did not give people enough reason to buy a 1DsIII over the 5DII. I would think they would want to avoid that in the future. Though in this case the 1Dx has the speed of the 1D which will give more do distinguish it.


----------



## Axilrod (Jan 25, 2012)

ATTENTION: I'm tired of reading through pages and pages of wish lists, "oh if it has better dynamic range and better high ISO performance I'm getting it." That's pretty much the stupidest and most obvious thing you could hope for in this camera (or any upcoming camera). Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

Like Canon is going to forget to improve the dynamic range and iso performance if you don't mention it here on the boards, they are a multi-billion dollar company people where is the trust? Some of you guys act like Canon is just a group of retards that don't know what they are doing, they don't need your advice.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> I agree that the 5DIII won't have the same sensor as the 1Dx. Perhaps I should revise that. I think the 5DIII _shouldn't_ have the same sensor, but I'm not convinced that it won't anyway. The 1DsIII and the 5DII's sensors were close enough to be counted as "the same" IMO. But that was a bit of a problem for Canon wasn't it? Canon did not give people enough reason to buy a 1DsIII over the 5DII. I would think they would want to avoid that in the future. Though in this case the 1Dx has the speed of the 1D which will give more do distinguish it.



But...will speed be enough? Consider...the 5D which came out after the 1DsII had _fewer_ MP. The 5DII which camera out after the 1DsIII has the same MP. A 5DIII which comes out after the 1D X and has _more_ MP? As I stated earlier, Canon might be ok with that, essentially throwing the 1D X under the bus in favor of huge profits from a much-improved 5DIII. But it's also possible that they'd level the playing field in other ways, perhaps ISO performance no better than that in the 5DII.

In fact...what if they just use the same sensor as in the 5DII in a new 5DIII? No one seems to be complaining about the performance of that sensor - so why not leave it alone and improve other features? We've heard rumors of a 22 MP sensor, right? Guess what - the 5DII already *has* a 22 MP sensor, with 21.1 MP effective pixels. Check the specs...


----------



## Kernuak (Jan 25, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> Canon did not give people enough reason to buy a 1DsIII over the 5DII. I would think they would want to avoid that in the future. Though in this case the 1Dx has the speed of the 1D which will give more do distinguish it.


Actually, a number (I don't actually know how many) of the big name wildlife photographers (i.e.those who could afford and justify the expense) had both the 1d and 1Ds lines. The idea was that the 1D would be for times when pure speed and extra reach was needed and the 1Ds for when better image quality was more important and the frame rate less so or when a larger size image was required. The focus and frame rate were significantly better on the 1Ds than the 5D line, plus the weather proofing meant they weren't driven by the weather. Professionals simply can't afford to stop shooting, simply because their cameras might get wet. I would think those reasons were good enough to differentiate. Before his switch, Ole Liodden posted a number of blog articles when the 7D came out about the weather proofing of that camera specifically, but also Canon cameras in general, stating that a number of 40Ds and 5Ds failed in the cold arctic conditions, yet the 7D (although with limited experience) carried on. He also told a story of him dropping his 1DsMkIII in the water and it carried on working without problems.


----------



## astrocrab (Jan 25, 2012)

maciej.urbanski said:


> 3x3 oversampling is more a curse than a blessing in RGB sensor with Bayer filter matrix.
> Let's consider 6x6 block of pixels that will be downsampled to 2x2 pixels for video:
> 
> GRG RGR
> ...


hm, no. your example is for 3x3 pixels block, not for 6x6. 1 pixel is:
GR 
BG

so 6x6 block downsampled to 2x2 block looks like

GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG

GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG

so, *each* pixel for HD video has same number of subpixels: 18 G, 9 R and 9 B.
and there is no problems with downsampling.


----------



## EYEONE (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> But...will speed be enough? Consider...the 5D which came out after the 1DsII had _fewer_ MP. The 5DII which camera out after the 1DsIII has the same MP. A 5DIII which comes out after the 1D X and has _more_ MP? As I stated earlier, Canon might be ok with that, essentially throwing the 1D X under the bus in favor of huge profits from a much-improved 5DIII. But it's also possible that they'd level the playing field in other ways, perhaps ISO performance no better than that in the 5DII.



I'm not sure. I've considered a 5DIII with more MP than the 1Dx but I'm not sure it would be "throwing it under the bus". I think there is a market for high MP studio work and there are people that don't care as much about high ISO performance as I do. So there could be a place for the 5DIII being a higher MP camera aimed at a different market. But there is of course the fact that a very high MP 5DIII would not appeal to wedding photogs like the 5DII did. Where would they go then?




neuroanatomist said:


> In fact...what if they just use the same sensor as in the 5DII in a new 5DIII? No one seems to be complaining about the performance of that sensor - so why not leave it alone and improve other features? We've heard rumors of a 22 MP sensor, right? Guess what - the 5DII already *has* a 22 MP sensor, with 21.1 MP effective pixels. Check the specs...



I'd be fine with that actually. I'd like a tweaked and reworked sensor a little bit. But honestly I'm fine with the 5DII right now except for the AF. Which is why I bought a 7D in the first place. I wanted a 5DII but there were rumors of a 5DIII floating around and I wanted to wait and see if it would have better AF (this was over a year ago mind you).

Honestly, I'd take a 5DIII that is exactly like the current if it had an up to date AF system. I think that would be marketing suicide for Canon, however.


----------



## astrocrab (Jan 25, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Yeah, as even Canon has said they want ideal video to be done from either 2x2 or 4x4 sampling only.



3x3 would be ok too. why not?


----------



## ksuweh (Jan 25, 2012)

Did anyone else notice the paint brush button & the "RATE" button on the left side of the camera? I'm wondering if it will have a frame rate that is selectable like the 1DX?!? Also, it looks like the CF card door isn't wide enough to enclose dual cards.


----------



## astrocrab (Jan 25, 2012)

cmac said:


> OK. First 3x3 has 5 greens and then 2 reds and 2 blues, next 3x3 has 4 reds 4 greens and 1 blue...



first 3x3 has 18 greens, 9 reds and 9 blues, next has same number and so on:
RG RG RG
GB GB GB

RG RG RG
GB GB GB

RG RG RG
GB GB GB


----------



## Tov (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> In fact...what if they just use the same sensor as in the 5DII in a new 5DIII? No one seems to be complaining about the performance of that sensor - so why not leave it alone and improve other features? We've heard rumors of a 22 MP sensor, right? Guess what - the 5DII already *has* a 22 MP sensor, with 21.1 MP effective pixels. Check the specs...



A very good idea. They have only up the frame rate a little and the AF( a lot more) and they have another winner.

You could be working for Canon.


----------



## maciej.urbanski (Jan 25, 2012)

astrocrab said:


> maciej.urbanski said:
> 
> 
> > 3x3 oversampling is more a curse than a blessing in RGB sensor with Bayer filter matrix.
> ...



Hmm no. 
Let's go back to basics.
Each cell in RGB sensor with Bayer filter samples one wavelength coresponding to one basic color channel: red, green or blue. The two missing colors are extrapolated from surrounding samples (this process is often called "demosaicing").
Thus - one cell after demosaicing becomes full RGB triplet. One channel is sampled, other two - interpolated.
This is called pixel (picture element) and it's a basis for further processing.
Most digital cameras work that way.

Next, if we use 2x2 matrix of cells we'll have 2 greens, one blue and one red. After combining this in one pixel we'll get image with half width, half height. Each pixel of this image has all channels are sampled (but with slightly different spatial resolution). There's no interpolation, and with correct anti-alias filter we'll get near-alias-free reconstruction. This is what Canon C300 is doing internally.

If we get 3x3 matrix of cells we'll have pixels with 3 different kinds of R/G/B ratios i've described before. This is a very bad situation, because after averaging noise levels will wary depending on pixel position and channel.
There are cameras that do this but they are mostly toys (USB webcams). It's very easy to spot when you do any image analysis on such images. In high-noise situations noise has has a checkboard pattern.

From reconstruction standpoint any number of N*M cells that produce one pixel is OK as long as both M & N are even.


----------



## fotoray (Jan 25, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> ATTENTION: I'm tired of reading through pages and pages of wish lists, "oh if it has better dynamic range and better high ISO performance I'm getting it." That's pretty much the stupidest and most obvious thing you could hope for in this camera (or any upcoming camera). Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.
> 
> Like Canon is going to forget to improve the dynamic range and iso performance if you don't mention it here on the boards, they are a multi-billion dollar company people where is the trust? Some of you guys act like Canon is just a group of retards that don't know what they are doing, they don't need your advice.



Sorry we spoiled your day!


----------



## cmac (Jan 25, 2012)

maciej.urbanski said:


> astrocrab said:
> 
> 
> > maciej.urbanski said:
> ...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.



EVERYTHING? So...the T3i/600D has better DR and less ISO noise than the T2i/550D...or the 7D or 60D? Oh wait, they use the same sensor, so those parameters are essentially unchanged. If Canon uses the 5DII sensor in the 5DIII, then what? Oh, they can _claim_ lower noise in the marketing effort, attributed to Digic5 and applicable to JPG only.


----------



## mkln (Jan 25, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> ATTENTION: I'm tired of reading through pages and pages of wish lists, "oh if it has better dynamic range and better high ISO performance I'm getting it." That's pretty much the stupidest and most obvious thing you could hope for in this camera (or any upcoming camera). Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.
> 
> Like Canon is going to forget to improve the dynamic range and iso performance if you don't mention it here on the boards, they are a multi-billion dollar company people where is the trust? Some of you guys act like Canon is just a group of retards that don't know what they are doing, they don't need your advice.



I'm sorry but that is not true. Canon has not been a strong innovator in terms of DR.

Let's look at DR measure on DxO. I found DxO to be a close match with what I see in pics from my 5d2 and nex 5n.

2003	300D	10.8
2005	350D	10.8
2005	5D 11.1
2006	400D	11
2006	30D	10.8
2007	40D	11.3
2008	450D	10.8
2008	50D	11.4
2009	500D	11.5
2009	7D	11.7
2010	550D	11.5
2010	60D	11.5
2011	600D	11.5

This is for APS-C bodies. In 8 years a 0.7 improvement in DR. Not really that much huh?
Now a quick look at full frame

2003	1Ds	11
2005	1Ds2	11.3
2007	1Ds3	12
2008	5D2	11.9

basically a 1 stop improvement in 5 years.

and that is just not enough! There are cameras based on sony sensors out there with a 2-stop dynamic range advantage over the 5D2, and they are APS-C!

In strong contrast scenes my nex 5n (with a rated 12.7 stops of dynamic range, released 2011) is just better than the 5D2. 

The 5D2 is nice becuase it is full frame, it's nice because of the added features from Magic Lantern, it's nice because it can produce really detailed pics. But its sensor is outdated and Canon does not seem to have a good track record on DR improvements.
I mean, I know that there's a high probability of the new 5D X of having more DR.
I just hope there is A LOT more. Other manufacturers have proven it's possible to have 14 stops of DR. I want Canon to at least match that.
So no, it's not a waste of bandwith.

And of course it'd be nice to have better AF, better iq at high iso, and so on. Everyone has different hopes about this. no discussion is meaningless.


( let me add APS-H data, which proves the same point )

2005	1D2n	11.2
2007	1D3	11.7
2009	1D4	12


----------



## astrocrab (Jan 25, 2012)

cmac said:


> Canon 5D Mark II has actually 5.x MP, because he has 21 Million bayer light sensors - 10.5 Million Greens and 5.x REDs and 5.x BLUE.



oh, i see now. =(
so, shall we ever see ideologically right foveon type sensor from canon?


----------



## Axilrod (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Axilrod said:
> 
> 
> > Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.
> ...



This thread is about the 5DIII, that's what I was talking about. The 5DII is almost 4 years old, it would be foolish of Canon not to improve the high ISO performance and dynamic range. It just seems like those changes are inevitable. There have been a flood of people on CR in the last week because of these posts, it's annoying going through pages and pages of nonsense.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> This thread is about the 5DIII, that's what I was talking about. The 5DII is almost 4 years old, it would be foolish of Canon not to improve the high ISO performance and dynamic range. It just seems like those changes are inevitable. There have been a flood of people on CR in the last week because of these posts, it's annoying going through pages and pages of nonsense.



Has Canon never done anything foolish? Honestly, I've heard lots of complaints about the 5DII...and almost none about it's sensor. Excepting the new 1D X (no data yet), the 5DII has the least ISO noise and is effectively tied for the best DR. Is it a huge stretch to think they'll just re-use that sensor? I don't think so. They might make slight improvements, maybe gapless microlenses, etc., but if it ain't broke... Plus a re-use would save a lot of R&D costs...


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## mkln (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Axilrod said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is about the 5DIII, that's what I was talking about. The 5DII is almost 4 years old, it would be foolish of Canon not to improve the high ISO performance and dynamic range. It just seems like those changes are inevitable. There have been a flood of people on CR in the last week because of these posts, it's annoying going through pages and pages of nonsense.
> ...


the sensor on the 5d is outdated in all respects compared to the competition.
tied for the best DR? where? there are tens of cameras out there with 13+ stops of DR vs the 5D2's 11.9


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## Hesbehindyou (Jan 25, 2012)

*It's gotta be full frame, not APS-C*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


>



I appreciate that most already presume it's full frame. For anyone still undecided:

If we take a look at the pic above he's zoomed all the way in and the bird's head only just fills the screen. With hot weather, APS-C and a 600mm lens it's not often you're focal length limited with a relatively big bird - heat haze makes it undesirable to shoot with the intention of cropping and becomes the dominating factor.

It's also possible the bird is both long-legged _and_ on stilts and he wanted to capture the whole creature, or that it was early in the morning.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2012)

mkln said:


> the sensor on the 5d is outdated in all respects compared to the competition.
> tied for the best DR? where? there are tens of cameras out there with 13+ stops of DR vs the 5D2's 11.9



Should have specified relative to Canon's lineup. Canon has been behind the competition in DR/ISO for years, and so far (until the 1D X) has shown no inclination to change that. The competition, of course, was behind on resolution. You pick your horse and lay down your bet...


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## mkln (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Axilrod said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is about the 5DIII, that's what I was talking about. The 5DII is almost 4 years old, it would be foolish of Canon not to improve the high ISO performance and dynamic range. It just seems like those changes are inevitable. There have been a flood of people on CR in the last week because of these posts, it's annoying going through pages and pages of nonsense.
> ...



well of course not. Canon makes incremental upgrades.
back in 2008 the 5D2 could be criticized because of its poor AF performance, sure. The sensor was the best in class.
but this does not mean that things haven't changed since. 
The 5D2 has always had pattern-noise (banding) that basically make postproduction less flexible especially at ISO 800 or higher.
Sure, the quantity of noise is very good up to ISO 3200. But the quality is just not that good. 
Now when the 5D2 had no competitors in terms of resolution and overall features of the sensor (considering that better sensors on a per-pixel basis had significantly lower resolution i.e. 12mp) then of course nobody complained about the sensor.

TODAY, however, there are higher resolution sensors that perform better even on a per-pixel basis. 
Or anyway there are sensor with a lower resolution (but definitely more than 12mp) that perform way better in terms of DR and noise quality (some also in terms of noise quantity).
so TODAY I expect canon to deliver an outstanding sensor, just as the 5d2 sensor was originally.

The problem that I see is that Canon does not seem to care about DR that much, given that their top performing DSLR has an effective DR of 12 compared to Nikon, Pentax, Sony, Fujifilm, all with sensors well above 13 stops of DR.

Instead, given what Nikon has done with the D7000, if their D800 is as good an FF as the D7000 is an APS-C, Canon will not be a leader anymore.

I'm sure the 5D X will be an improvement (duh!), but my question is how much.


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## EYEONE (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> mkln said:
> 
> 
> > the sensor on the 5d is outdated in all respects compared to the competition.
> ...



I'm wondering what most people would more be able to recognize in a ordinary photography (not a test setup): 8 more MPs of resolution or ~1 stop of dynamic range?


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## CarebbianTraveler (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Has Canon never done anything foolish? Honestly, I've heard lots of complaints about the 5DII...and almost none about it's sensor. Excepting the new 1D X (no data yet), the 5DII has the least ISO noise and is effectively tied for the best DR. Is it a huge stretch to think they'll just re-use that sensor? I don't think so. They might make slight improvements, maybe gapless microlenses, etc., but if it ain't broke... Plus a re-use would save a lot of R&D costs...



The 5D2's sensor is nearly 5 years old, first used in the 1DsIII. When they want to save development coasts, they adapt the one from the 1D X. But I don't believe in just a slight improvement. They will go bigger after 5 years. 
On the other hand, this old sensor is still one of the best and competitors only have reached about an equal quality. This might be a hint why the mark III is not announced yet. There's no need for it yet. And yes, I would also prefer other improvements than the sensor.


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## mkln (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> mkln said:
> 
> 
> > the sensor on the 5d is outdated in all respects compared to the competition.
> ...



Yes, you're right, but the gap between Canon and the competition on DR was not that large.
D700 gives 12.2, not a big deal compared to the 5d2.
the gap has widened though. 
0.3 stops between the D700 and the 5D2, 2.4 stops between the D7000 and the 60D (sensor size difference not significant to explain this difference).
and while there is a 9mp difference between the D700 and the 5D2, there is a mere 2mp difference between D7000 and 60D.

I'll be happy with 13.5 stops for the new 5d



EYEONE said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > mkln said:
> ...



I think the 2 are equivalent. but as shown above, we're not talking about a 1stop difference anymore.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2012)

mkln said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > I'm wondering what most people would more be able to recognize in a ordinary photography (not a test setup): 8 more MPs of resolution or ~1 stop of dynamic range?
> ...



Honestly, I don't think 'most people' would recognize either! But I can tell you which would sound better as a marketing strategy...


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## CarebbianTraveler (Jan 25, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> I'm wondering what most people would more be able to recognize in a ordinary photography (not a test setup): 8 more MPs of resolution or ~1 stop of dynamic range?




Nearly all displays have 8bit per channel and maximum 4MP. The contrast of the printers depends on the paper, but is definitely not better than a display. But there's a chance to see a difference between a 12 and a 20MP print, when it's at least A3.

But having a display with 16bits and a high contrast would be great, because my eyes are better than the standard 8 bits ;-)


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## marius (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon has been behind the competition in DR/ISO for years, and so far (until the 1D X)



"until" 1DX?! Where is the proof that 1DX has better DR as the competition? 



neuroanatomist said:


> The competition, of course, was behind on resolution.



Of, course since 2008 we have Nikon D3X with 24 MP and Sony Alpha A900, too.


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## marius (Jan 25, 2012)

EYEONE said:


> I'm wondering what most people would more be able to recognize in a ordinary photography (not a test setup): 8 more MPs of resolution or ~1 stop of dynamic range?



The photographic tehnique, of course 8)


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2012)

marius said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has been behind the competition in DR/ISO for years, and so far (until the 1D X)
> ...



Please don't exerpt in such a way that the meaning of the quote is altered. What I stated was:



neuroanatomist said:


> Canon has been behind the competition in DR/ISO for years, and *so far (until the 1D X) has shown no inclination to change that*.



...meaning that with the 1D X, Canon has now apparently shown an inclination to tackle the issues of ISO noise and DR. I didn't say that they've succeeded - we won't have any idea of how effective their efforts were until we see 1D X RAW files.

Then again, maybe they haven't shown that...perhaps the 1D X has less MP than the 5DII _only_ so Canon could deliver a higher frame rate.


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## EYEONE (Jan 25, 2012)

marius said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > I'm wondering what most people would more be able to recognize in a ordinary photography (not a test setup): 8 more MPs of resolution or ~1 stop of dynamic range?
> ...



Well, true _if_ we were discussing the merits of a good photograph.

Which we weren't.


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## CarebbianTraveler (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Then again, maybe they haven't shown that...perhaps the 1D X has less MP than the 5DII _only_ so Canon could deliver a higher frame rate.



I can't find the article, but that's basically what a canon employee said: The problem is the pixel reset time. The bigger the sensor and the more pixels it has, the longer it takes. When the pixels aren't reset properly, artifacts may appear.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 26, 2012)

necator said:


> DramaMask said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't make any sense for Canon to develop a another full frame sensor in addition to the 18MP sensor of the 1D X. Using the same sensor as the 1D X is the only thing that makes sense from a cost point of view. Canon is not a charity, they are in the market to make money.
> ...



5D2 and 1Ds3 had same sensor itself but the 1Ds3 bonded the filters and stuff on in a better and fancier way and the color filters appear to be different and maybe some of the late stage read electronics, so taken all together not the same, but the actual light detecting sensor sensor part of it same

it had worse pattern noise, but a trace less photon noise since the filter array was a bit more color-blind


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 26, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> ATTENTION: I'm tired of reading through pages and pages of wish lists, "oh if it has better dynamic range and better high ISO performance I'm getting it." That's pretty much the stupidest and most obvious thing you could hope for in this camera (or any upcoming camera). Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.
> 
> Like Canon is going to forget to improve the dynamic range and iso performance if you don't mention it here on the boards, they are a multi-billion dollar company people where is the trust? Some of you guys act like Canon is just a group of retards that don't know what they are doing, they don't need your advice.



they haven't done a lot for usable DR in a long time

and even SNR has only crept up a bit (they got to a decent level much more quickly than Nikon/Sony but then haven't improved it by a ton, although it has gotten better)


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## iP337 (Jan 26, 2012)

I for one really like the idea of an APS-H sensor in a sub $2000 line like the 7D. I still love using my 5D2 and 7D, they have a lot of life left in them still so I'm not compelled to upgrade them anytime soon but at this point I'm looking for a new useful shooting option in an affordable package like an $1800 7Dmk2 to slot between my 5D2 and 7D to increase my shooting options without bankrupting me ;D (Was planning on a Panasonic Micro Four Thirds but rather have a Canon APS-H)

I think that's a 7DmkII in the pic cause it makes sense to release a 7DmkII right now; Nikon is rumored to announce the D800 soon so Canon may feel the need for something new as well, but the 1DX is about to release and announcing it's "affordable full frame alternative" now can only hurt 1DX pre-sales (Though Nikon seems to be doing just that with the D800 announcement just before their D4 release, lol.), also as mentioned here before it's a big sports year 2012 (but not a big studio year) and too many of the recent Canon models are competing with each other killing the x0D line (semi-pros go to 7D while consumers go with 600D, so what's the 60D for?! semi-consumers? no wait that's 1100D.)

Canon said starting with the 1DX they will be "cleaning up" their DSLR models, but they also claimed to have no intention of abandoning APS-H. Canon is in a great position to make the 7D line the "Sports"(APS-H)cameras, the 5D line the "Studio" camera and the 1DX into an "EVERYTHING" camera while giving the x0D line it's "Semi-Pros" back.

Also it would be interesting if Canon made a 16:9 APS-H sensor, since back in the film days APS-H (known as APS-High Definition) was 16:9 for landscape photography not 3:2 like APS-Classic or 135 Film. This could be a 16:9 LCD on the back of the “mystery body” to go with a 16:9 sensor. If they did make this, then the HDMI out with a 16:9 sensor wouldn’t have those pillar bars or crop marks that the current 7D’s HDMI out has due to it’s 3:2 sensor, this could be the “clean” HDMI out camera we’ve been waiting for! Nikon’s already doing a clean HDMI out with the D4 by cropping a 16:9 portion of their 3:2 so you know Canon has to do something and the current 7D almost already has it.

Aww, I just set myself up for a big let down later haven't I? That camera's probably just a 5DmkIII with a 16:9 LCD display that drops to 3:2 when you hit record :-\


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes, I think you've set yourself up for disappointment, mainly because we all see what we want to see. Allow me to humorously re-order your statements to what I think you really mean: 



iP337 said:


> I think that's a 7DmkII in the pic cause...





iP337 said:


> I for one really like the idea of an APS-H sensor in a sub $2000 line like the 7D...I'm looking for a new useful shooting option in an affordable package like an $1800 7Dmk2.



I like the idea, too, but unfortunately, I think it's pretty unlikely.


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## iP337 (Jan 26, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, I think you've set yourself up for disappointment, mainly because we all see what we want to see. Allow me to humorously re-order your statements to what I think you really mean:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol, it's true, I have been fantasizing of adding an APS-H body to my bag but a 1Dmk4 is just a bit too much for me to rationalize the cost and I usually won't upgrade for a few extra MP or slightly increased DR, I was still happy shooting the D60 and 20D until the 5Dmk2 came out. (Well that's not really true, I desperately wanted a 5Dc and 40D but kept spending the money on my car, lol.)


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## mb1984 (Jan 26, 2012)

iP337 said:


> Also it would be interesting if Canon made a 16:9 APS-H sensor, since back in the film days APS-H (known as APS-High Definition) was 16:9 for landscape photography not 3:2 like APS-Classic or 135 Film. This could be a 16:9 LCD on the back of the “mystery body” to go with a 16:9 sensor. If they did make this, then the HDMI out with a 16:9 sensor wouldn’t have those pillar bars or crop marks that the current 7D’s HDMI out has due to it’s 3:2 sensor, this could be the “clean” HDMI out camera we’ve been waiting for! Nikon’s already doing a clean HDMI out with the D4 by cropping a 16:9 portion of their 3:2 so you know Canon has to do something and the current 7D almost already has it.
> 
> Aww, I just set myself up for a big let down later haven't I? That camera's probably just a 5DmkIII with a 16:9 LCD display that drops to 3:2 when you hit record :-\




Well, I think that this is going to be the first lens for this new sensor size then ;D
But indeed, I can't see any advantage in a 16:9 sensorsize in the digital age. Why should I drop a part of excellent image information (my lens was made for) in every picture? I'm able to crop it even automatically if I want to have this portion ?!


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