# Largest softbox size to use with 600 EX-RT?



## Perio (May 11, 2015)

Hi guys! I currently use on-camera 600 EX-RT with Gary Fong lightsphere, which works just fine for taking indoor and outdoor portraits. But I've finally decided to build up my off-camera outdoor lighting kit. I mostly take portraits of a single person, not a group of people. The question I have is what the right size of a softbox for this kind of portraits I should choose? I know the larger the size of a softbox, the more diffuse and even lighting is, but is there a softbox size that limits potential of 600 EX-RT? Currently, I'm choosing between 54x72" Chimera Super Pro Plus softbox and 69" Elinchrom Rotalux Octa Softbox, and I'll have Avenger C-Stand Grip Arm Kit to hold the softbox. Are these softboxes too large for a single person and for 600 EX-RT? 

Thank you for your time to read my post.


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## neuroanatomist (May 11, 2015)

It depends on how much light you'll need, but IMO a single Speedlite is best with ~600 in2 of double-diffused surface. So...a 24" softbox, 12x48 stripbox, or 27" octabox. With significantly larger modifiers, I'd consider a monolight, or gang up Speedlites (which isn't cost-effective with 600EX-RTs, although you can put 'dumb' optically-triggered strobes in a large Softbox with one RT-triggered 600.


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## Perio (May 11, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> It depends on how much light you'll need, but IMO a single Speedlite is best with ~600 in2 of double-diffused surface. So...a 24" softbox, 12x48 stripbox, or 27" octabox. With significantly larger modifiers, I'd consider a monolight, or gang up Speedlites (which isn't cost-effective with 600EX-RTs, although you can put 'dumb' optically-triggered strobes in a large Softbox with one RT-triggered 600.



OK, thanks Neuro. I did not realize that 600 EX-RT was not very useful for large size softboxes. I'll look for a good monolight then.


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## neuroanatomist (May 11, 2015)

It does really depend on your use. If you are shooting with a wide aperture, and are willing to bump the ISO up a bit, the 600EX can work in a large modifier. Personally, when using a strobe/softbox set up, I usually have control of the background and I'm stopped down to f/11 or so, meaning I need a fair bit of power especially from the key light.

Have a look at the Paul C. Buff Einstein E640. Some of the new Profoto lights are excellent, but I don't think you can beat the Einstein for quality + value.

On the value end, if use will not be too heavy, you might look at Godox.

If portability is important, you also need to consider battery packs.


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## sanj (May 11, 2015)

Thank u a Neuro. This is helpful to me too.


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## YuengLinger (May 11, 2015)

Neuro, as always, the math is appreciated, if not fully understood.

Even using your suggestions for modifier sizes, I'd like to emphasize that, as wonderful as the 600ex-rt is for many situations where super-portable lighting is needed, once the modifier goes on, or bounce is involved, we are looking at usable max f/stops of about f/5.6 - f/8, which is fine for some situations, but very limiting when fighting ambient light. Once you start raising the ISO, ambient light is just part of the picture.

And with the modifiers, even the nicely priced 24"x24" Impact softbox requires very close placement to the subject. Get much bigger than that, I imagine, and keeping the modifier out of the frame becomes a real challenge. (Note there is a nice grid available for this Impact.)

While the 600-ex-rt and the right little softbox can produce excellent headshots, once you want more, say even 3/4 body shots, things get difficult.

And don't overlook umbrellas for the Speedlites. I think they are even easier to use and can work great for individuals AND groups. With three Speedlites and umbrellas, I was able to nicely light a very big group of about 100 (four layers deep by about 25 people across). I think I was using 43" umbrellas, silver linings. This was early morning in deep shade. I had my ISO up a bit, but the dark trees behind the group made things easy. All I had to do in post was dodge a few faces about 1/3 stop.

I can vouch for the Einsteins. When I got my first one, I thought it would be a step up in complexity, but soon I learned how easy perfect exposures were with the CyberCommander's flash meter, and how classic portrait lighting was suddenly possible. The Vagabond battery pack is easy to hang on a light-stand under the Einstein. And the Buff modifiers are very good too. 

As noted, incredible value for the money.

So, for environmental portraits, a couple or three Speedlites can add polish or a bit of drama, or open up shadows. But for isolating the subject and reaching a new level of creative (and classic) portraiture, strobes are the next step. Also, remember that composition will be more affected by the Speedlites, as you will have to frame more tightly to avoid including your lights and stands.

Plus, the CyberCommander with the right trigger works with Speedlites too, so you can easily combine the strobes and the Speedlites. Say you use one Einstein for lighting the subject, you can put a Speedlite or two in the background to add depth to the image (once you find the right lighting ratio, remembering to keep the f/stop down a bit on the subject so the Speedlites provide the effects you are after).

Lighting! One of my favorite topics!


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## Perio (May 11, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Neuro, as always, the math is appreciated, if not fully understood.
> 
> Even using your suggestions for modifier sizes, I'd like to emphasize that, as wonderful as the 600ex-rt is for many situations where super-portable lighting is needed, once the modifier goes on, or bounce is involved, we are looking at usable max f/stops of about f/5.6 - f/8, which is fine for some situations, but very limiting when fighting ambient light. Once you start raising the ISO, ambient light is just part of the picture.
> 
> ...



Thank you, YuengLinger and Neuro! Can you guys suggest me the best lighting kit for one individual only (stand, monolight, softbox, etc)? Price doesn't matter, well unless it's crazy expensive. I'm not making money by photographing. Thanks!


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## neuroanatomist (May 11, 2015)

Perio said:


> Thank you, YuengLinger and Neuro! Can you guys suggest me the best lighting kit for one individual only (stand, monolight, softbox, etc)? Price doesn't matter, well unless it's crazy expensive. I'm not making money by photographing. Thanks!



I don't think there's really a one-size-fits-all solution. For example, here's my setup for 'corporate headshots' which uses four lights. 







Key and fill are each a 600EX-RT in a Lastolite 24" Ezybox, both on Manfrotto 1051BAC stands. The key has a round mask diffuser panel (for catchlight shape), and the fill is gridded. The hair light is a 600EX-RT with a Honl 1/8" Speed Grid on a Manfrotto 420B Combi Boom. Background light is an Buff Einstein 640 with a white shovel background reflector, on a Manfrotto 012B backlight stand. The backdrops are Backdrop Alley muslin on a Manfrotto 1314B background support system. Speedlites were radio triggered with an ST-E3-RT and the monolight was optically slaved. 

There are many ways to skin a cat. Two good places to start are Syl Arena's _Speedliter's Handbook_ (the concepts apply to monolights as well) and the Strobist 101 blog.


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## LDS (May 11, 2015)

Perio said:


> Can you guys suggest me the best lighting kit for one individual only (stand, monolight, softbox, etc)? Price doesn't matter, well unless it's crazy expensive. I'm not making money by photographing. Thanks!



If you're in US/Canada Paul C. Buff are a very good choice, but it doesn't sell outside US/Canada, and support could become then difficult. If you're in another part of the globe, I will give a look to Elinchrom's D-Lite RX-One and D-Lite RX 2/4 kits.


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## agierke (May 11, 2015)

size and spread of the light source can be just as important as size of the modifier. the concern i would have over using too large of a modifier with the 600 EX is weather or not i would get a wide enough and even enough spread of that light to fully take advantage of the modifiers capabilities. havent done tests myself so i have no clue...but the small size and recessed position of the light source of the 600 EX would lead to to believe that it may not spread well in an oversized softbox.

the ideal strobe source is one that includes a frosted dome or built in reflector that helps spread the light out evenly before even getting shaped by the modifier. a small harsh direct light source will be prone to have hot spots in the center with many types of modifiers you put around it. beauty dishes and socked umbrellas are two modifiers specifically designed to minimize hot spots and give the most even spread of the light possible.

as has been stated, i find the Einstein to be a fabulous light for reasons stated above. its comparable in price to a 600 EX but is so much more versatile in what it will be able to do for you in a studio setting. as far as taking it outside...again, havent tested enough to fully know but i do know you will run into additional challenges mixing the strobed light with available in some of the more extreme conditions. remember...all modifiers will suck some of the power out of your strobes capability. larger and more diffused modifiers may suck more power out that smaller and less diffused. alot to consider! in the end...i think the Einstein will give you the most capability.


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## meywd (May 11, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Perio said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, YuengLinger and Neuro! Can you guys suggest me the best lighting kit for one individual only (stand, monolight, softbox, etc)? Price doesn't matter, well unless it's crazy expensive. I'm not making money by photographing. Thanks!
> ...



Thank you for the information Neruo, I am also looking at the options for studio/outdoor lighting, though i am focusing on outdoors and portability than on studio, so I am thinking of getting one softbox for now to shoot against the sun.

I did an engagement shoot recently and I borrowed a small softbox with 1 flash much like your key light setup, which I found to be not enough against mid day sun, so I used a reflector with it which made it okay, I am thinking of using a big octa softbox, much like the Elinchrom 69-Inch Rotalux Octa Softbox, and from what you said it seem I will need a monolight for it to be enough for lighting two persons against the sun, though i am not sure how to choose a monolight that has enough power? and will a softbox this size be enough?


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## tiltshift (May 11, 2015)

Perio, 

If you live in the greater Denver Area I have all the options posted and you can give different things a try.


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## RLPhoto (May 12, 2015)

Large mods are pretty useless with just one speedlite. You have to get them really close to get a usable amount of power in an octobox. In my use, two speedlites in the large photek soft lighter is the bare minimum to get a decent amount of power. So pushing a 60" softbox with one speedlite means you'll need to bump your ISO or shoot a faster aperture to get more power. Then you'll find you will be hitting your sync speed limit very quickly to control the ambient light. My best mod for a single speedlite is a 24" square pop-up softbox and the honl speed grids.

Anything larger than those, gang up two speedlites or use a strobe.


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## pwp (May 12, 2015)

Check out the PCB PLM umbrellas. In this test Rob Galbraith uses PLM 64" Silver umbrellas with speedlights.
http://www.robgalbraith.com/multi_pagebb9d.html?cid=7-10046-10396
The speedlights test is on the second page. 

I have a number of PLM's. Couldn't be happier. http://paulcbuff.com/plm.php

-pw


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## Perio (May 12, 2015)

tiltshift said:


> Perio,
> 
> If you live in the greater Denver Area I have all the options posted and you can give different things a try.



Thanks! But I live in Connecticut...


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## Perio (May 12, 2015)

RLPhoto said:


> Large mods are pretty useless with just one speedlite. You have to get them really close to get a usable amount of power in an octobox. In my use, two speedlites in the large photek soft lighter is the bare minimum to get a decent amount of power. So pushing a 60" softbox with one speedlite means you'll need to bump your ISO or shoot a faster aperture to get more power. Then you'll find you will be hitting your sync speed limit very quickly to control the ambient light. My best mod for a single speedlite is a 24" square pop-up softbox and the honl speed grids.
> 
> Anything larger than those, gang up two speedlites or use a strobe.



Yeah, I'll probably buy a 24" softbox and use it with 600 EX-RT. And also will get a larger softbox and use it with the monolight... omg, I'm so illiterate in all of this.. thanks guys for your suggestions


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## pwp (May 12, 2015)

RickSpringfield said:


> Einsteins are the way to go. Paul C. Buff, everything is less ............... except for the quality of light which is just as good as brands that are 2x - 4x more. Even modifiers are less, octa's, bdish, reflectors, grids, etc.
> 
> The only small nit with PCB is the build quality on the cyber commander. It'll get the job done for sure. Does it have the heft and feel of a well made electronic... nope. Having said that I've never had an issue.



Agree 100% on Einsteins. My studio was entirely Profoto up until a couple of years ago, two Pro6 floorpacks and six Compact 600 monos and high priced modifiers. The cost of ownership was high, I was on first name terms with the Profoto repairs guy. 

The Profotos are all gone now, and we're all the way Einsteins with six heads, VML's and a shedful of mods. Lightweight. Reliable. Brilliant. And I love that you can dial them down to just 2.5 w/s

The Einsteins and VML's are great for location work, but I have to say I've been taking a pair of Godox AD-360's (triggering with Phottix Odin's for HSS) a lot more often for small jobs. The two heads, batteries, cables, Odins and mods all tuck into a compact packpack. OP, if you want inexpensive, ultra-compact and high enough power (360 w/s) to work with a large softbox, the AD360's deserve a close look.

-pw


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## Pookie (May 12, 2015)

Buff's are ok if you're static but if you're really looking for portability, Profoto B1 or Elinchrom Ranger or Quadra will be your best bet. I do lots of on site shoots for corporate, wedding and gen portraiture... nothing beats Profoto's or Eli's for onsite/studio versatility. The B2's by profoto are nice but unfort not enough power to really compete with the sun and if you're outside that's what you'll need. The Profoto B1 is 500ws and the Quadra's are 400ws. Ranger's are 1100ws and typically way more than needed.

I use B1's, Quadra's and Rangers in my studio and on site. Stellar light and unfort... nothing Buff's could pull-off until the make them smaller/more robust.

5D3's Profoto B1 or Quadra's into a 1 meter Octa...







You won't be doing this with Buff's (shooting in the surf)...


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## anthonyd (May 12, 2015)

I'd say what you need is a godox 360, or maybe even the 180. I'll speak for the 360, because that's what I have.

In comparison to a speedlight, it's waaay more powerful, even in comparison to the 600 so it will lit large modifiers with no problem. Also, it has a battery that will last for way longer than four AA. Further, it's bare bulb, so it will fill the softbox beautifully, unlike a speedlight. On the down side, it's bulky and heavy, but it's certainly portable and you can even mount it on the hot shoe. I know I do, and I don't even have a professional magnesium body.

In comparison to strobes, it's somewhat less powerful (360ws versus 400ws or 500ws for common portable strobes) but it's way more portable. Try mounting a strobe on your hot shoe!

Back to comparing it with your Canon 600, the Godox doesn't do TTL, it's manual only (albeit with a very easy to use remote power control), but it can do HSS (High Speed Sync) if you use the correct remote triggers, or have it on the hot shoe, so you don't have to worry about sunny days.
I'm attaching three pictures I did with it in the last month (the last one using HSS, since the background is in the sun).


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## sanj (May 12, 2015)

Great thread


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## keithfullermusic (May 12, 2015)

Pookie said:


> Buff's are ok if you're static but if you're really looking for portability, Profoto B1 or Elinchrom Ranger or Quadra will be your best bet. I do lots of on site shoots for corporate, wedding and gen portraiture... nothing beats Profoto's or Eli's for onsite/studio versatility. The B2's by profoto are nice but unfort not enough power to really compete with the sun and if you're outside that's what you'll need. The Profoto B1 is 500ws and the Quadra's are 400ws. Ranger's are 1100ws and typically way more than needed.
> 
> I use B1's, Quadra's and Rangers in my studio and on site. Stellar light and unfort... nothing Buff's could pull-off until the make them smaller/more robust.
> 
> ...



I've never used the B2's, but I've heard that they are surprisingly powerful enough. 250 vs 500 is just one stop, and I almost never blast my lights at full. So I'm just curious why you don't think the B2's are enough?


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## Pookie (May 13, 2015)

I've rented them before buying 3 B1's... Not enough for me. I'd rather have more power and back down than struggle with not enough power (just looks bad in front of clients). Also, like the Quadras, it's 250ws per battery pack/module. Split that between 2 lights and you're s.o.l. for power. I use my Quadra's one light per module, that's 400ws for each... far more working latitude than only 250ws. Even if you use one B2 per pack you're still at 250ws, just anemic and something I have to constantly work around. I think Profoto cut the power to add the ETTL/HSS, functions I haven't used EVER so rather pointless when I already work the Eli's just fine.

I do loads of on-site work with large mods (1 meter is the smallest) and if you can't effectively battle the sun due to poor client locations, you're dead in the water. The Eli Quadras are barely sufficient sometimes at 400ws... initially I had been using a 3 Ranger set-up but the weight was ridiculous. The B1's are a good compromise power wise and are extremely portable. Currently using 3 B1's and when in run-and-gun situ, a 3 Quadra kit. The Ranger's only come out for studio work or large groups.


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## keithfullermusic (May 13, 2015)

@Pookie - that makes sense for what you do. using modifiers that big in bright sun requires lots of light. most of the reviews i've seen have been from people using much smaller modifiers, and they were taking advantage of HSS (however, i'm not sure how powerful the lights actually are during HSS mode).


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## ObsidianGT (Sep 14, 2015)

Pookie said:


> Buff's are ok if you're static but if you're really looking for portability, Profoto B1 or Elinchrom Ranger or Quadra will be your best bet. I do lots of on site shoots for corporate, wedding and gen portraiture... nothing beats Profoto's or Eli's for onsite/studio versatility. The B2's by profoto are nice but unfort not enough power to really compete with the sun and if you're outside that's what you'll need. The Profoto B1 is 500ws and the Quadra's are 400ws. Ranger's are 1100ws and typically way more than needed.
> 
> I use B1's, Quadra's and Rangers in my studio and on site. Stellar light and unfort... nothing Buff's could pull-off until the make them smaller/more robust.
> 
> ...



Wow, Pookie. That is EXCELLENT work. I'm thoroughly impressed. I'm an amateur with a Canon 6D, 600EX-RT, 430EX II, some various light modifiers, and my results are improving every shoot. But, I've been looking to step things up to the next level. The Profoto B1 is my new goal.

Thank you for sharing!


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## gqllc007 (Sep 28, 2015)

To the OP how far from Albany are you?? 
I just started with this as well. This is one of me and one of my better half. I am always shooting outdoors in HSS so I purchased the Rovelight
This was done yesterday with two lights and two 24x36 soft boxes, a key and a fill as the background was so bright and no hair light or the silver hair gets blown out. Canon 5Dmk3 and 135 f/2 at f/2 and 1/1600 ISO 160


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## Tabor Warren Photography (Sep 28, 2015)

Hi Perio,

I would recommend looking into this Westcott kit; 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1005758-REG/westcott_2036_rapid_box_2_light.html. I just bought it a couple of weeks ago and it is amazing, completely revolutionized our flash work, and delivers a much, much better product.

A couple of notes about what's included in the kit.
26" Rapid Octabox -- Definitely the preferred box between the two and gives off gorgeous light. For a 600EX-RT, I would not go any bigger unless you get the duo, found here; http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1086197-REG/westcott_2050_32_rapid_box_duo.html
10"x24" Rapid Box Strip -- Great light, though I prefer this one for more of a hair/rim light.
2, 8' Light Stands -- Very lightweight, which is great unless there is wind. I would recommend 1-3 5-pound sand bags for the windy days.
Beauty Dish Deflector Plate -- Always in the octabox, and provides great light
Gear Bag -- Actually, a really good bag!

I too, would also recommend looking into a more powerful light as I have found that I am often pushing my 600 to full power in order to achieve the desired level of flash, however, ~85% of the time, I am working with the flash between 1/32 and 1/4 power so a stronger light is not absolutely necessary.

Last little bit, if you are looking at using your 600EX-RT flashes, I would highly recommend Canon's ST-E3-RT Transmitter and a battery pack for your flash, we use a Godox which you can find on Amazon.

I hope this helps!

All my best,
-Tabor


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## FTb-n (Sep 28, 2015)

pwp said:


> Check out the PCB PLM umbrellas. In this test Rob Galbraith uses PLM 64" Silver umbrellas with speedlights.
> http://www.robgalbraith.com/multi_pagebb9d.html?cid=7-10046-10396
> The speedlights test is on the second page.
> 
> ...


+1
I use two 65" soft silver PLMs with the white diffuser front. Each is fitted with two Yongnuo 565EX II (now only $65.00) and two YN 622 radio triggers. I also use one or two 51" PLMs for background lights an fit each with a single YN 565EX and 622 trigger. 

One tip is to fit each flash with a Stofen-like diffuser. I use those made by Yongnuo. In my tests, the diffuser spreads the light from the flash to better fill the PLM without any loss of power.

A big reason that I prefer two flashes in the key and fill lights is for the faster recycle times. I often shoot with the key light between 1/8 and 1/4 power.


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## primewp (Sep 30, 2015)

Thanks so much for the info!


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## Pookie (Sep 30, 2015)

ObsidianGT said:


> Wow, Pookie. That is EXCELLENT work. I'm thoroughly impressed. I'm an amateur with a Canon 6D, 600EX-RT, 430EX II, some various light modifiers, and my results are improving every shoot. But, I've been looking to step things up to the next level. The Profoto B1 is my new goal.
> 
> Thank you for sharing!



Thanks for the kind words...

I've heard the Godox are pretty good... I just find that mods are easier to find for the larger brands. Anybody use the Flashpoints? I hear they are the exact same units just re branded.

I'm still a firm believer in Profoto or Elinchrom for lights. Did a shoot for a local store here in Santa Cruz Ca and used the Quadra's all day long, surf, sand and wind. Not one hiccup in 4 years with the Eli's and they are the lightest of the bunch.

I have recently had to use Profoto's customer service... no bueno and that might be a major deal breaker for me with them. Rather than send out a tiny piece of replacement kit that broke (under warranty) they want the whole unit and shipping both ways is on me. Considering I've spent nearly 10k with them it's rather lame approach to customer service.


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