# Medical joint overload by heavy dlsr?



## Marsu42 (Jun 27, 2013)

Currently I seem to be getting into a chronical a medical condition because my equipment seems to be too heavy for the way I handle it: The whole 60d+70-300L+600rt-flashbracket package rests on the last joint of my ring finger, and my physician advises me strongly to change the way I shoot or stop doing it, at least for 8-10h straight every other day.

Problem is: I don't know how to even the load on my hand, esp. with the flash bracket because I cannot attach a hand strap at the same time. There are lots of people with expensvie (i.e. heavy) equipment on CR, and I'd like to ask you for your advice:

* Where does the whole camera load sit with you (with me it's the ring finger and a bit of the index finger of the right hand)? Do you carry the weight rather with the left hand that holds the lens?

* Does a battery grip help to even the load because you can grab the camera with the whole hand?

* Does a larger grip like 5d2/3 vs 60d/6d help because you need to cramp the hand less?

Edit: Using a monopod is not possible for what I'm doing...


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## scarey83 (Jun 27, 2013)

I'm not sure I can even picture how to do that!

I have a 7D + 70-300L, which admittedly I don't tend to use with the flash (as then it's about 2kg!), but I support it with both hands when taking a photo - left palm supports the LHS if the body and my fingers go out to the lens. When I'm walking around and cant be bothered with a strap, I let it hang from all four fingers on my right hand.
I do find the larger grip on the xD bodies helps. I could never get used to an xxxD body now, they're so tiny.

This may not work but if you have trouble stopping yourself resting it on your finger, you could try strapping it to a neighbouring finger.

scarey


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## Marsu42 (Jun 27, 2013)

scarey83 said:


> I have a 7D + 70-300L, which admittedly I don't tend to use with the flash (as then it's about 2kg!)



The flash-bracket is a major factor because the flash load is outward, creating a lot of torsion (just like a longer lens like the 70-200/2.8L2 would). And the 600rt is heavy, I need it for the power but if I sometimes put on the smaller 430ex2 it's a big difference.



scarey83 said:


> When I'm walking around and cant be bothered with a strap, I let it hang from all four fingers on my right hand.



That's the problem: With the smaller 60d grip, even when dangling the camera downwards the load is still more or less on the same fingers. One thing I certainly have to do is to take the camera into the other hand when walking and at every other opportunity :-\


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## Universeal (Jun 27, 2013)

For me it goes to joint of my hand. Now i have a huge problem, i have to keep my left hand straight when i grab something because if i bend it, it would hurt me a lot and i might drop it very easy. I saw to put some rice in a ball or something and keep grabbing the rice for couple of tens of minutes every day. Didn't try it yet.


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## ecka (Jun 27, 2013)

I carry the weight with my left hand, so my right hand is free to operate buttons. I think it's more stable that way. However, when in portrait position, I switch the weight to my right hand (most of the time) and it may be a bad habit, because when I press the shutter I tend to shift the horizon (which requires some straightening in post).
If you don't feel comfortable holding it by the lens, there are handles made for lens tripod collar. Something like that http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg/image/140765523/original.jpg maybe. You should try, don't risk your joints.


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## John MARK (Jun 27, 2013)

Hi Marsu42,

Common saying is "a nice picture's worth more than a thousand words"... 

Could you attach a photo of yourself through a mirror while holding your equipment the way you describe it ?

I'm having a hard time trying to figure it out just by reading your explanation 

FWIW, I often hold my flash in my left hand and camera (60D, 550D, G1X, G12...) in my right hand with either optical, OC-E3 or RF (Phottix ODIN) sync in between, depending on body / situation etc.

More flexibility than with a flashbracket and some weight distribution between both hands, as a bonus.

Cheers


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## Marsu42 (Jun 27, 2013)

Universeal said:


> I saw to put some rice in a ball or something and keep grabbing the rice for couple of tens of minutes every day. Didn't try it yet.



My doc explained to me that the joints - fingers or wrist - simply weren't made for this type of continued stress, building muscles hasn't anything to do with it, there's no prevention other than better/other handling of the gear... the main problem is that it not only hurts, but can get chronic if you ignore the problems for too long. 

Btw if I just use the 60d+17-40L it feels light as a p&s, I suspect whoever created our skeletal layout didn't like heavy dslr gear 



ecka said:


> Something like that



Hey, that looks useful, thanks! Did you try one of these grips, how does it handle in real life?

Edit: Does anyone know where to get a cheap China version of these grips? The US version from the image I found on ebay is $15 plus $90 shipping, doh.


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## ecka (Jun 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Something like that
> ...



I tried one with a ball-head mounting (don't remember the brand, I didn't buy it), which allows you to adjust the angle in any direction, but it didn't feel like I need something like that. The guy (owner) said that he tried a few cheaper ones without angle adjustment and those were not as uncomfortable to hold. I don't have any real life experience with it, sorry. These are used mostly for really heavy lenses I don't use or cannot afford .


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## Marsu42 (Jun 27, 2013)

John MARK said:


> Common saying is "a nice picture's worth more than a thousand words"...



Here you go, my new CR self-portrait and my first sooc picture ever :-> ... I don't know if the pictures help, but coming from much lighter equipment and just recently having bought the heavy stuff I'm dumb enough to just use my left hand for lens operation while I hold everything with my right hand (the ring finger, that is...).

Edit: Removed self-portraits since they've served their purpose - I wasn't holding the left hand/arm under the lens and had to support the weight with the right hand.


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## Universeal (Jun 27, 2013)

I did other type of work for my joint and it worked, i recovered for some time but not full because it wasn't for full recovery. I used my camera for 2 days and now i'm full of pain. I used a lot 70-200f/2.8 is2 with 5dmk3+grip. I have worse condition on my left hand and it's getting worse.


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## ecka (Jun 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> John MARK said:
> 
> 
> > Common saying is "a nice picture's worth more than a thousand words"...
> ...



So, that's the difference, I don't zoom, because I use primes.
Nice beard


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## tron (Jun 27, 2013)

I think it will feel heavy no matter how you hold it.

Do you have a monopod with a small/light ballhead to rest your gear there maybe?


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## Marsu42 (Jun 27, 2013)

ecka said:


> So, that's the difference, I don't zoom, because I use primes. Nice beard



Hey, (that's why) I usually shoot things in front of the camera, and with some more preparation  ... but you're correct, with my prime (100L) it's better not only because it's not as heavy, but I really support it with my left hand.



Universeal said:


> I did other type of work for my joint and it worked, i recovered for some time but not full because it wasn't for full recovery. I used my camera for 2 days and now i'm full of pain. I used a lot 70-200f/2.8 is2 with 5dmk3+grip. I have worse condition on my left hand and it's getting worse.



Sorry to hear that, and I feel with you - the 70-200/2.8L2 is not only more heavy than my 70-300L, but your lens is also longer which creates more wrist torsion ... this is one of the reasons why I didn't buy it, other than the packaging size and of course price.



tron said:


> I think it will feel heavy no matter how you hold it. Do you have a monopod with a small/light ballhead to rest your gear there maybe?



No use, for what I'm currently shooting I'm either moving/crawling 99% of the time or standing waist-deep in water, for stationary objects I usually use a real tripod so that's no solution.


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## docholliday (Jun 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Currently I seem to be getting into a chronical a medical condition because my equipment seems to be too heavy for the way I handle it: The whole 60d+70-300L+600rt-flashbracket package rests on the last joint of my ring finger, and my physician advises me strongly to change the way I shoot or stop doing it, at least for 8-10h straight every other day.
> 
> Problem is: I don't know how to even the load on my hand, esp. with the flash bracket because I cannot attach a hand strap at the same time. There are lots of people with expensvie (i.e. heavy) equipment on CR, and I'd like to ask you for your advice:
> 
> ...



Yes, the grip will help. That's why I don't shoot with another bodies other than 1-series and Hasselblad. A full hand grip with all fingers on the grip gives even pressure to the hand and joints. With the smaller bodies, the pinky tends to go under the body and the pressure of holding the body with the other fingers cramp the pinky and ring finger. The grip will give you more surface area to evenly spread the pressure out.

I "lay" the camera and lens into my left hand (with hand underneath, palm facing upward). The right hand doesn't carry much weight. I use my index finger to tweak focus and my thumb+pinky to change zoom. I've held the camera for 15+ hours and don't feel any fatigue from it (other than in my shoulders from having my arms up more than usual). 

The part I always like about medium format waist level, cradle camera with left hand, wrap right around opposite side, and rest back of camera against stomach!


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## Timothy_Bruce (Jun 27, 2013)

you said that attaching a handstrap is not possible because of the flash bracket. 
Probably the FB could be shifted over to the tripod mount ring so you can ad a handstrap. 
A handstrap brings the weight to your whole hand and it is possible to hold the camera without even closing the hand. 
I can handhold the 1Ds3 with 16-35 and 580EX(with difusor) only with my right hand ( 580EX in the left hand ) 
for hours and the first that geht tired is my arm the hand is perfectly fine. 
(a BG brings extra weight but also brings a better grip cant say if it would help. probably trying to test it would be a good idea ) 

I also thought about a that kind of support system bringing the weight to your chest video people sometimes use to get steadier.


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## John MARK (Jun 27, 2013)

Thanks for the CR self portrait Marsu!

Makes it much clearer now, at least for me !

Does my assumption that your finger has to compensate for ROTATIONAL TORQUE rather than overall weight sound right to you ?

If such is the case, this is where holding the flash unit freely in one hand and the (admittedly heavy) camera in the other hand might be helpful.

Point is, submit your body to various postures instead of just one, to minimize stress.

Just like hikers swapping shoes every two hours or so, to lessen foot pain during very long walks.

Cheers


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## Marsu42 (Jun 27, 2013)

First off a lot of thanks to you all, this is really helping 



docholliday said:


> Yes, the grip will help. That's why I don't shoot with another bodies other than 1-series and Hasselblad.



I suspect as much, but only recently I can imagine how large of a difference it could make to have the little finger on the camera and not below it :-\



Timothy_Bruce said:


> Probably the FB could be shifted over to the tripod mount ring so you can ad a handstrap.



I tried that, unfortunately the bracket isn't build for that, and it hasn't got a drill hole so I could attach the stap under it when it's on the camera....



John MARK said:


> Does my assumption that your finger has to compensate for ROTATIONAL TORQUE rather than overall weight sound right to you ?



Yes, that's exactly it! ... at least when holding the camera in landscape orientation.



John MARK said:


> If such is the case, this is where holding the flash unit freely in one hand and the (admittedly heavy) camera in the other hand might be helpful. Point is, submit your body to various postures instead of just one, to minimize stress.



Good idea in general, and I'll see if I'll really purchase one of Syl's famous "extra long ettr cords"... but the advantage of a fixed bracket is that it's all in one piece and you can move, that's necessary for what I'm currently shooting...



Timothy_Bruce said:


> I also thought about a that kind of support system bringing the weight to your chest video people sometimes use to get steadier.



... against my usual habit two thumbnails because it might make my point clearer why inflexible equipment isn't usable here.... quak. neigh. But for other purposes I might buy some body strap after all, though I really hate these.


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## Camerajah (Jun 27, 2013)

When shooting for long hours a support should be used ie mono pod or tripod failing that one should hold gear with left hand palm facing upwards thumb and first finger on focusing or zoom ring with left elbow tucked into body most of weight is on the left hand regardless if your left or right handed


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## Harry Muff (Jun 27, 2013)

If you're not going to mount it on a monopod, then lose the tripod collar and get a good hold with your left hand _under_ the lens. The way you you are holding it in those photos looks like how anyone that has no idea how to hold a camera does.


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## Harry Muff (Jun 27, 2013)




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## schill (Jun 27, 2013)

docholliday said:


> I "lay" the camera and lens into my left hand (with hand underneath, palm facing upward). The right hand doesn't carry much weight. I use my index finger to tweak focus and my thumb+pinky to change zoom. I've held the camera for 15+ hours and don't feel any fatigue from it (other than in my shoulders from having my arms up more than usual).



This is essentially what I do as well. My left hand is usually under the lens (or camera and lens if the lens is small) and my left arm is taking most of the weight - and it's not concentrated on a few fingers. I rarely ever support the weight in my right hand. I'm typically shooting with a 7D and 70-200/2.8 and this works well for me.

I basically operate as if I have a lens with a camera hanging off the back, rather than as if I have a camera with a lens in the front. Support the lens and operate the camera. If I am carrying this arrangement (not shooting), I hold the lens, not the camera.

If I shoot vertically, I like my right hand above the camera rather than below. The left hand is still holding the weight. For shooting vertically, I find this more comfortable than using a grip (although I haven't used one since my film days long ago  ).


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## schill (Jun 27, 2013)

Harry Muff said:


> If you're not going to mount it on a monopod, then lose the tripod collar and get a good hold with your left hand _under_ the lens



I usually rotate the collar up (so that it is in front of the flash) as long as that doesn't interfere with anything else. I find this is ok when holding the camera either horizontally or vertically.

I know several people who are most comfortable supporting the camera with their left hand under the base of the tripod collar. The weight is supported by the collar on their palm and their fingers are free to operate the lens without bearing any of the weight. I find that to be a bit awkward (and maybe not quite as stable) but I can't really see anything wrong with it.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2013)

A good start would be to support the weight with your left hand under the lens. With the 70-300L, I find the tripod ring helps with that and places my fingertips at the zoom ring (not the focus ring, which is where they want to go since that's the zoom ring position on all my other L-series zooms). 

A battery grip would help in that you wouldn't be able have a finger under the camera. But it also adds more weight... I think it's a good idea - I used grips before getting a 1-series. 

My advice would be a new flash bracket and a hand strap. The strap transfers the weight to your hand/wrist. Get the Really Right Stuff L-plate for the 60D - it's one of their newer modular designs that converts from base plate to full L bracket (but you have to pick for no grip vs grip). The base plate has a lug for a hand strap. Get the RRS wedding pro (WPF-QR) flash bracket. Like most brackets (unlike yours), it extends up the left-hand side of the camera, and it allows an easy flip for use in portrait orientation.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 27, 2013)

Harry Muff said:


> If you're not going to mount it on a monopod, then lose the tripod collar and get a good hold with your left hand _under_ the lens.



Thanks a lot for the handling advice and the "how to" picture, that might a good part of my problem! The other part is that I too often walk around with the camera just in my right hand when not shooting.

I looked at my own mirror shots again and I am indeed usually holding the camera somewhat differently than here pressed against the wall, but nevertheless *holding* isn't the same as really putting the *weight* into the left arm.

Please do note I'm just a humble amateur mind you and just recently got this heavy stuff ... though it's complicated to get the weight to the left arm when lying on the ground or in awkward positions I shot a lot in during the last time.



schill said:


> I usually rotate the collar up (so that it is in front of the flash) as long as that doesn't interfere with anything else. I find this is ok when holding the camera either horizontally or vertically.



Unfortunately with my flash bracket the collar is in the way in for either landscape/portrait all but the downward position, that might be the reason other people use the "L" bracket type instead of my Demb version... but I could remove the collar alltogether when I don't need it or try to put it in my palm.



neuroanatomist said:


> Get the Really Right Stuff L-plate for the 60D - it's one of their newer modular designs that converts from base plate to full L bracket (but you have to pick for no grip vs grip). The base plate has a lug for a hand strap. Get the RRS wedding pro (WPF-QR) flash bracket. Like most brackets (unlike yours), it extends up the left-hand side of the camera, and it allows an easy flip for use in portrait orientation.



Hmmmyeswell, the price tag is the reason why I went for my type - but seeing my current problems I'll probably have to bite the bullet and get the proper stuff - thanks for the advice!


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## tron (Jun 27, 2013)

Now that you uploaded the pictures I understand the need for APS-C/70-300L/flash/no tripod combination.
But, how about a gorilla pod or a big bean bag (at least for the subset of your pictures you take by crawling...)?


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## SteenerMe (Jun 27, 2013)

You shoot 8-10hours a day with a 60D....why?!


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## Cannon Man (Jun 27, 2013)

Get a battery grip.

I hand hold the canon 1D X with the 70-200mm 2.8 IS II for very long periods at a time and i have no problems because it has a grip that allows my whole hand sit on..

I had a 5D Mark II and it was always uncomfortable to hold. It is a bad idea to have a small camera and a heavy lens.

Did i already say get a battery grip?


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## dstppy (Jun 27, 2013)

Honestly, I would shop for a bracket that supports a handstrap to start with. 

I have 2 of the Canon handstraps and an arca-swiss plate on each body (which also allows for the grips) and I have to say, dollar-for-dollar, they've been the best accessory for my cameras. It totally changes the load on your hand.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 27, 2013)

SteenerMe said:


> You shoot 8-10hours a day with a 60D....why?!



Because it's fun and you have to be patient with animals, frogs quak or yawn only so many times a day, wild horses run or relax only for some minutes, butterflies are in perfect light and position only for so many seconds, ...

Plus I'm learning how to do it and thus am not getting paid for it - hence I can either shoot or earn money  ... and 8-10h is not 365d/y but only in the peak summer season when I'm on holiday and the weather is good.



Cannon Man said:


> Get a battery grip.



I was always hesitant to buy more stuff that only fits my (old) 60d and cuts away the 60d's main advantage - size & weight... but well, I'll have to think about it I guess.

Fyi all: I Just looked up two pages on how to hold a dslr  and now I know why I have gotten around to do it otherwise - I lie flat on the ground a lot (handheld macro, animals) with the camera near ground level and putting the wrist under the camera isn't possible this way...

http://improvephotography.com/1365/how-to-properly-hold-a-dslr-camera/

http://godigitalslr.com/hold-dlsr/


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## viggen61 (Jun 27, 2013)

I use a Canon grip on my 7D. It's the only way I can grasp the camera with all my fingers. Otherwise, my right pinky is left underneath it, and that is uncomfortable.

I typically use the Gripped 7D with a 100-400L, and when I handhold that, my right hand is on the camera and grip, and my left hand is under the lens, supporting the majority of the weight. Same thing if I get out the 430EXII and Better Beamer.

Your right hand should be bearing very little of the rig's weight. Your left hand should be holding it all up, either from the bottom of a longer lens, or with the palm supporting the base of the camera/grip, and fingers on the lens. 

Oh, if the tripod collar foot is too small or uncomfortable, get a mount plate like an Arca-Swiss style. I have a Wimberley P20 on my 100-400 and it makes holding it a lot more comfortable.


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## Harry Muff (Jun 27, 2013)

The advice I always give to people is simply to pretend they are holding a rifle. Seems to help them.


And then there's the "shooting" link too. ;D


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## viggen61 (Jun 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Fyi all: I Just looked up two pages on how to hold a dslr  and now I know why I have gotten around to do it otherwise - I lie flat on the ground a lot (handheld macro, animals) with the camera near ground level and putting the wrist under the camera isn't possible this way...



Then you need to explore other options. I know I could never handhold my rig without support under the lens.

Beanbags are one option, there are "tabletop" tripods that might get low enough, there is a $99 "ground pod" that is like a plastic pan you attach a head to, or make your own with a cheap or old small frying pan.

http://www.digitalbirdphotography.com/windows/4.1.html

(Scroll down, near the bottom to see a BIG lens on a cheap frying pan...)


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Get the Really Right Stuff L-plate for the 60D - it's one of their newer modular designs that converts from base plate to full L bracket (but you have to pick for no grip vs grip). The base plate has a lug for a hand strap. Get the RRS wedding pro (WPF-QR) flash bracket. Like most brackets (unlike yours), it extends up the left-hand side of the camera, and it allows an easy flip for use in portrait orientation.
> ...



I sort of figured, but it's like the MasterCard commercial - RRS B60D-L: $120, RRS WPF-QR: $170, continued use of your hand: priceless.


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## Ryan708 (Jun 27, 2013)

I paid <40$ for my battery grip for my 60D and it makes shooting a lot more comfortable. not only does it give my pinky somewhere to live, but the "pivot point" or fulcrum if you will, [that is pushing against your palm] is further from your fingers releiving some tension.


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## schill (Jun 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Fyi all: I Just looked up two pages on how to hold a dslr  and now I know why I have gotten around to do it otherwise - I lie flat on the ground a lot (handheld macro, animals) with the camera near ground level and putting the wrist under the camera isn't possible this way...



I've done the same thing and not had a problem so I guess that may come down to individual comfort. I will admit that it's not the same as standing up holding it. Usually, though, if I'm not looking through the viewfinder there may be other, more optimal, ways to hold things.

If you are so close to the ground that you can't comfortably hold the lens from underneath, I suggest you get a very small tripod or even just screw a small block of wood to the lens foot - something that will hold up the weight of the lens without adding too much overall weight.

You really don't want to be supporting the weight in your right hand, especially if you are contorting your arm/wrist/fingers to hold it in such a low position. If nothing else, it will not be as stable and you will probably introduce more shake.


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## schill (Jun 27, 2013)

viggen61 said:


> Beanbags are one option, there are "tabletop" tripods that might get low enough, there is a $99 "ground pod" that is like a plastic pan you attach a head to, or make your own with a cheap or old small frying pan.



A small plate (used for food) and a <20 USD ballhead should work fine for this and be very light, if you want a little more flexibility. I'd throw in an Arca-Swiss compatible clamp and plate for the lens, but that will add cost.


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## G-V (Jun 29, 2013)

Use a tripod ;D


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## optikus (Jun 29, 2013)

Harry Muff said:


> The advice I always give to people is simply to pretend they are holding a rifle. Seems to help them.
> 
> 
> And then there's the "shooting" link too. ;D



Exactly that is, what I was told when starting to use longer lenses. Avoids trouble also with heavyer lenses and pro-body. Monpod or shoulder-support is an alternative, but not practicable at any place.

Joerg


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## Marsu42 (Jun 29, 2013)

optikus said:


> Harry Muff said:
> 
> 
> > The advice I always give to people is simply to pretend they are holding a rifle. Seems to help them.
> ...



Probably the NRA start a "shooting is good for your health" campaign :-> ... over here in Germany though there's a definitive lack of gun proliferation, not to my dismay as I might add, but the analogy is still valid and helpful.



G-V said:


> Use a tripod ;D



And tell all animals to please pose right in front of it in the correct distance and height  ...

... fyi all: Yesterday I observed how I hold the camera and when, and with the great help from this thread imho my problem is a problem of these factors, I am confident it can be fixed:

1. Wrong left hand position when holding the lens & too little support from the left arm. Unfortunately, this really only works when holding the lens standing, is awkward when lying on the ground and not working at all when doing something else with your left hand (like supporting yourself or holding a flash which I often do).

2. Holding the camera only in the right hand when walking or not shooting, I need to put it in the other hand as often as possible and/or use a strap to lighten the load on the fingers

3. Unbalanced, heavier equipment: My problems only arose after buying a heavy lens and a large flash with flash bracket that puts more downward and rotational stress on my hand, at and the same time the hand strap didn't fit anymore worsening the problem - so at least need to get the hand strap attached again. With just a 60d+40/2.8 pancake lens it'd be a different story altogether...


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