# The Canon EOS M50 Will Shoot 4K [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 10, 2018)

```
<p>We <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/will-the-next-mirrorless-camera-from-canon-have-4k-video-cr1/">reported last month</a> that the next mirrorless from Canon would shoot 4K video and it looks like we’ve confirmed that it will.</p>
<p>This would make the EOS M50 the first APS-C shooter in the Canon lineup to shoot 4K and adds a bit of <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-sends-invites-to-dealers-for-major-mirrorless-presentation-next-month/">credence to that special</a> invite from one of Canon’s subsidiaries we were told about last month</p>
<p>The EOS M50 will remain an EF-M mount camera. Unfortunately, we have no other specifications at this time.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## [email protected] (Feb 10, 2018)

Have to say that Canon is doing a good job in the APS mirrorless sector and the M50 should be a good camera addition to Canon's excellent Aps ML series. 

For a newbie a good system would be a EF-M camera like M100, along with a EF adapter and owning / mounting some of the excellent Canon F4 Glass like 17-40 L / 16-35 F4 L IS, 24-70 F4 L IS and 70-200 F4 L IS. Then update the system at later date to more mirrorless optimized glass, faster glass and possibly a Canon EF FF Mount mirrorless camera (if Canon is taking this approach ?).

Be interested to see whether Canon's FF plans (New Mount / EF Mount or EF-M Mount ??) and how Canon's plans stack against Nikon's late plans for Nikon-2 (Aps and FF)..

Nikon certainly have their ^%^%^% to make a new entry and dent into the competitive ML market.


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## ichiru (Feb 10, 2018)

Tell us more!!!  seriously though when is the event expected? Can't wait... I highly doubt it'll be full frame or will have cool stuff like on sensor stabilizer ... don't care much for 4K personally but damn I want a mirrorless so bad yet I can't turn away from Canon.


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## Deleted member 380306 (Feb 10, 2018)

Interesting, wonder if on the stills side we'll see any improvement in image quality?


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## Punio (Feb 10, 2018)

Fair enough, but it'll probably be handicapped. a 1.7 crop or something that will render it useless. I'm waiting to see if they'll produce a FF mirrorless camera. And more importantly if it'll adopt the EF mount.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 10, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> We <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/will-the-next-mirrorless-camera-from-canon-have-4k-video-cr1/">reported last month</a> that the next mirrorless from Canon would shoot 4K video and it looks like we’ve confirmed that it will.</p>
> <p>This would make the EOS M50 the first APS-C shooter in the Canon lineup to shoot 4K and adds a bit of <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-sends-invites-to-dealers-for-major-mirrorless-presentation-next-month/">credence to that special</a> invite from one of Canon’s subsidiaries we were told about last month</p>
> <p>The EOS M50 will remain an EF-M mount camera. Unfortunately, we have no other specifications at this time.</p>
> <p><em>More to come…</em></p>
> <span id="pty_trigger"></span>



wow. now there's alot of questions. why did they hide the sensor from view? it sounds to me like it's a super-35 and most likely 9mp such as their cini cameras.

otherwise, why hide the sensor?


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## transpo1 (Feb 10, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/will-the-next-mirrorless-camera-from-canon-have-4k-video-cr1/">reported last month</a> that the next mirrorless from Canon would shoot 4K video and it looks like we’ve confirmed that it will.</p>
> ...



If true, this is a good step forward for Canon and signal that they’re recognizing the appeal of 4K in stills cameras- it’s here to stay, and they need to risk cannibalizing some of their higher-end lineup. Of course, it will be hobbled somehow, but credit where credit is due. 

To address the sensor question, perhaps it’s a multi aspect like the GH5s sensor.


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## mkabi (Feb 10, 2018)

Meanwhile... over at Fuji the X-H1 is being put out with more aggressive Cinema features. DCI 4K and DCI 2K, F-log, Fuji colours, 1080p at 120fps for $1899.


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## Dima 135 (Feb 10, 2018)

So, Canon want tell to us... That first who get 4k (i think with normal bitrate and on all frame) - its new users of cheap cameras ?


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## rrcphoto (Feb 10, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



maybe you misread that entire comment.

if it's a 9mp super-35 the only thing it would be is really a video orientated EF-M it wouldn't be much use for stills.

and ps.. can you make any comment in here without taking a shot at canon?


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## rrcphoto (Feb 10, 2018)

mkabi said:


> Meanwhile... over at Fuji the X-H1 is being put out with more aggressive Cinema features. DCI 4K and DCI 2K, F-log, Fuji colours, 1080p at 120fps for $1899.



and meanwhile this will be half the price .. :


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## Talys (Feb 10, 2018)

Great. Hopefully, some people will shut up now. ;D


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## Etienne (Feb 10, 2018)

I have an M3 and an M6. These are sluggish finicky cameras. Good for still life, portraits, landscape. But I've cursed at them hundreds of times for their fiddly, slow nature.
Doubt that I'll buy any more of these until Canon picks up the pace.


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## transpo1 (Feb 10, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



I was answering your question about why they hid the sensor from view, which seems like the most logical answer.

If it is because it is video oriented, that would be a great thing, but honestly, I’d rather have the video and stills capability, which is what I’ve always been pushing for.

P.S.

A) I gave them credit (if true) 

B) Owning a ton of Canon gear gives me the right to constructively criticize. 

C) The real question is why get so offended?


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## transpo1 (Feb 10, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > Meanwhile... over at Fuji the X-H1 is being put out with more aggressive Cinema features. DCI 4K and DCI 2K, F-log, Fuji colours, 1080p at 120fps for $1899.
> ...



The XH-1 looks like a good play for hybrid customers with 4K and IBIS, although it would have been more appealing with 4K 60p and a dedicated video record button (!). The biggest drawback for me with the Fuji lineup is that there is no 24-105/4 equivalent. 

However, if an M50 had useable 4K codec and no crop with DPAF, this would be a killer camera to go up against both the Fuji and A6500.


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## Talys (Feb 10, 2018)

@transpo1 - the M50 will not "risk cannibalizing some of their higher-end lineup." 

I do not believe that anyone who uses a five figure video rig -- where three batteries costs more than the M50 will -- is going to consider the a 4k MILC because it's small and cheap.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 10, 2018)

Talys said:


> @transpo1 - the M50 will not "risk cannibalizing some of their higher-end lineup."
> 
> I do not believe that anyone who uses a five figure video rig -- where three batteries costs more than the M50 will -- is going to consider the a 4k MILC because it's small and cheap.



indeed. the cannibalization myth is overused.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 10, 2018)

4K means it will be $1000 overpriced, yet crippled in other ways at the same time 

I would really like to see Canon offer something that is half decent for not too much money.


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## crashpc (Feb 10, 2018)

It will be overpriced and crippled, thus selling poorly, and Canon will conclude from that one, that 4K is overrated and customers don't want it. :-D 
That's how it works at Canon really.
I don't shoot video, so it's not an issue for me, but I can imagine how they lost the development workforce for this, instead of for something more exciting.
Long live Canon!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJBq0z2Vmu4


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## transpo1 (Feb 10, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > @transpo1 - the M50 will not "risk cannibalizing some of their higher-end lineup."
> ...



@Talys. I completely agree. It won’t cannibalize very useable video rigs for professionals that costs 10x as much. But Canon has not held that opinion. Which is why they hobble certain features in lower end bodies, both stills and video. Note that I said “risk cannibalizing” because I don’t think it actually will. But Canon has typically had a conservative mindset on this. 

@RRC Please elaborate and explain why it’s a myth. It’s not a myth but a necessity that a company cannibalize it’s own products before someone else does. Why else put 4K into an M50? 

Also, please note the above- I don’t believe it will cannibalize. Nor would a 5DIV with better crop factor 4K necessarily cannibalize a Cinema EOS; nor would a 7DIII with 4K 60p cannibalize a 1DXII...okay, well that might


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## rrcphoto (Feb 10, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> @RRC Please elaborate and explain why it’s a myth.



it's a myth that Canon cares so much about it.

Canon has actually stated the reverse. They view as their products as competing against each other.

Canon is bright enough to realize a cheap M6 styled 4K camera isn't going to compete against any other camera canon currently has, and if the user buys that so what? they stayed within the ecosystem.


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## unfocused (Feb 10, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > @RRC Please elaborate and explain why it’s a myth.
> ...



Yes. I am amused (but also frustrated) by this myth that Canon "hobbles" one product to benefit another.

Every company differentiates between products. To expect that a low-cost product should have the same features as a high-end product is goofy. It doesn't happen in any other industry or with any other product. Why should we expect Canon to put the same feature set in cameras that cost a fraction of what the higher end bodies cost?


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## unfocused (Feb 10, 2018)

I suspect we have seen the last of the enthusiast level Canons that do not have 4K. Whichever comes next, the 90D or the 7DIII will almost certainly offer 4K. And, then, forum dwellers can move on from "Canon is cheating me by not offering 4K" to "Canon is cheating me by not offering the same level of 4K that they offer in their Cinema EOS line."


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## JBSF (Feb 10, 2018)

I just don't get why Honda has to cripple the Civic, when they could put the 573 hp NSX engine/drivetrain and suspension in it and sell it to me for $18K.


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## tmroper (Feb 10, 2018)

crashpc said:


> It will be overpriced and crippled, thus selling poorly, and Canon will conclude from that one, that 4K is overrated and customers don't want it. :-D
> That's how it works at Canon really.
> I don't shoot video, so it's not an issue for me, but I can imagine how they lost the development workforce for this, instead of for something more exciting.
> Long live Canon!
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJBq0z2Vmu4



Canon is already selling mirrorless 4K video cameras, and making a lot of money doing it. So if anything, the problem for developing a small, cheap consumer mirrorless camera might be getting the Canon workforce motivated to work on them rather than the pro level where they're already doing and shipping great products. Sony and Panasonic have found the motivation, though, so Canon should be able to, too.


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## transpo1 (Feb 10, 2018)

unfocused said:


> I suspect we have seen the last of the enthusiast level Canons that do not have 4K. Whichever comes next, the 90D or the 7DIII will almost certainly offer 4K. And, then, forum dwellers can move on from "Canon is cheating me by not offering 4K" to "Canon is cheating me by not offering the same level of 4K that they offer in their Cinema EOS line."



Thank you, this is the path forward  

Seriously, though, my position ALWAYS has been that if they put the guts of the 1DXII *video* features into a 5D-type body- let's call it a 5DC- took out the mirror and gave it an EVF and FF crop factor in 4K with a better codec, they could charge whatever they want for that and people would buy it. I'd easily pay 7-8K for something like that if it had very competitive video features, like 4K 60p and 1080 120p (leaving the stellar stills capability of course).


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## transpo1 (Feb 10, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > @RRC Please elaborate and explain why it’s a myth.
> ...



Your statements contradict one another. They don't care about cannibalization but they care about their cameras competing against one another? That means they care about cannibalizing their products 

Perhaps what you meant is that they WANT their products to compete against each other. Which, I'm sure, is true for some of their products, especially within their lower-end camera lines (which have so many options) but certainly not for their higher-end products. They certainly don't want those (at least in the past) to have serious competition from their cheaper cameras, as we can see in the Cinema EOS line, etc. 

With your last statement you are partially right- Canon is bright enough *NOW* to realize a cheap M6... etc.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 10, 2018)

I'd say this is getting new sensor technology as well as a new processor. Canon's APS-C sensors have not been capable of 4K, so something has changed. Of course, any camera can be made to do 4K, but to do it right is another matter.


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## mkabi (Feb 10, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> Canon is bright enough to realize a cheap M6 styled 4K camera isn't going to compete against any other camera canon currently has, and if the user buys that so what? they stayed within the ecosystem.



I don't know what optimistic fairy tale you live in....

Coming back to reality, these are the real prices of Canon gear without 4K:

M100:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/c/search?Ntt=canon%20eos%20m100&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ps#searchOpen

M5:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/search?N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search&Ntt=canon%20eos%20m5

M6:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/search?N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search&Ntt=canon%20eos%20m6

Now reality with one of their cheapest 4K offering:

XC15:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1278108-REG/canon_1456c002_xc15_4k_professional_camcorder.html

In fact, even though this rumor is a CR3, it's still a rumor... And, I can't see Canon jumping ahead of their schedule to put 4K in their Mirrorless camera... Before the 7D mark 3, 90D, t8i.... It's a gamble that they won't risk.... I mean given that NAB 2018 is coming it would be smarter to put C-log in the 1dx mark 2, but you don't see that happening. They put in C-log in the 5D mark IV but neglect it in the 1dx mark 2... That's pretty illogical to me and Im sure most here, but Im sure it has something to do with appealing to the masses while at the same time not hurting the sales of their other products.

With that said, what are the chances that they are going to give you something equal or better than what the 5D mark IV or the XC15 has to offer???

*snort* bwahahaha and at half the price haha of Fuji's X-H1 price tag ($1899). Man... You're a funny guy.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 10, 2018)

Some people don't realize that a CR3 Rumor usually happens just before a release when information becomes known to a larger group of people. 

There are people who actually know who leak information to CR, and when there different reliable known sources confirming the data, its virtually guaranteed.

If you have other information that is different, please send it to CR Guy, just claiming that Canon won't do it without any factual data is just a wish. 

Its very rare that a CR3 is not a firm fact, sometimes Canon pushes a announcement out into the future, but a CR3 is 98% at least correct.


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## Talys (Feb 10, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect we have seen the last of the enthusiast level Canons that do not have 4K. Whichever comes next, the 90D or the 7DIII will almost certainly offer 4K. And, then, forum dwellers can move on from "Canon is cheating me by not offering 4K" to "Canon is cheating me by not offering the same level of 4K that they offer in their Cinema EOS line."
> ...



You're probably right. For me, it's just a simple question of cost -- if there's no premium, sure, why not? But since I will never use it, the only reason for it is a little bit of resale value, after 7-10 years.

I think it's absurd to compare Cinema EOS 4k features, because people who shoot on enthusiast cameras probably have a whole different process (and expectation) after the video is recorded. But I think it's totally fair for reviewers to compare different ILCs that can record 4k video, and compare which ones are easier to use, given that most people will not have super-sophisticated software, the most powerful desktops that money can buy, or the desire to use either.




Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Some people don't realize that a CR3 Rumor usually happens just before a release when information becomes known to a larger group of people.
> 
> There are people who actually know who leak information to CR, and when there different reliable known sources confirming the data, its virtually guaranteed.
> 
> ...



The way to look at it is, how often has a CR3 been wrong in a material way? I can't recall the last time.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 10, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



obviously you had trouble reading that.

They view all their products as competing with one another because no matter what because a customer is always going to make a choice of one product over another.

That really wasn't hard was it?


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## rrcphoto (Feb 10, 2018)

mkabi said:


> XC15:
> https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1278108-REG/canon_1456c002_xc15_4k_professional_camcorder.html



the XC15 actually is a broadcast compliant camera and matches with the C300 codec. it's actually one of the cheapest cameras that is broadcast certified.

Don't expect that on a M6 video camera. we'd be lucky to get a 100mb 4k or even MJPEG.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 10, 2018)

mkabi said:


> I mean given that NAB 2018 is coming it would be smarter to put C-log in the 1dx mark 2, but you don't see that happening. They put in C-log in the 5D mark IV but neglect it in the 1dx mark 2... That's pretty illogical to me and Im sure most here, but Im sure it has something to do with appealing to the masses while at the same time not hurting the sales of their other products.



My guess is that Canon's ideology is this: if you want BOTH of the following two features, then you need to buy the Cinema EOS:
4K 60p
C-LOG

Giving C-LOG to the 5D mark IV does not make it equal Cinema EOS in certain specs. However, giving C-LOG to the 1D mark II would.


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## sanj (Feb 10, 2018)

Slowly but surely the discussion on this forum if 4k is necessary or not will end. Good good.


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## Don Haines (Feb 10, 2018)

A welcome surprise, but what interests me more is if they have gone to the UHS-2 SD cards yet


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## Don Haines (Feb 10, 2018)

It will be interesting to compare high bitrate 2K to low bitrate 4K......


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## sanj (Feb 10, 2018)

Talys said:


> Great. Hopefully, some people will shut up now. ;D



True that.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 10, 2018)

sanj said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Great. Hopefully, some people will shut up now. ;D
> ...



Unlikely. Whiners gonna whine.


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## hachu21 (Feb 10, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> wow. now there's alot of questions. why did they hide the sensor from view? it sounds to me like it's a super-35 and most likely 9mp such as their cini cameras.
> 
> otherwise, why hide the sensor?





Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'd say this is getting new sensor technology as well as a new processor. Canon's APS-C sensors have not been capable of 4K, so something has changed. Of course, any camera can be made to do 4K, but to do it right is another matter.


Agreed to both. All that could explain the M50 moniker : first 4k, but lower range for stills (9mp), diffrent sensor tech compared to the classic 24mp and possibly a DV chip instead of Digic 7 (IMHO, a single digic 7 cannot handle 4k 60P footage).

We'll see!


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## transpo1 (Feb 10, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'd say this is getting new sensor technology as well as a new processor. Canon's APS-C sensors have not been capable of 4K, so something has changed. Of course, any camera can be made to do 4K, but to do it right is another matter.



This is exciting- looking forward to seeing what this is. Multi-aspect sensor maybe like the GH5s but APS-C size of course? 

Curious if anyone has any thoughts on the tech they might put into a sensor in a lower-tier camera like this.


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## sanj (Feb 10, 2018)

hachu21 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > wow. now there's alot of questions. why did they hide the sensor from view? it sounds to me like it's a super-35 and most likely 9mp such as their cini cameras.
> ...



Who told you that?!?


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## rrcphoto (Feb 11, 2018)

hachu21 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > wow. now there's alot of questions. why did they hide the sensor from view? it sounds to me like it's a super-35 and most likely 9mp such as their cini cameras.
> ...



I'm wondering the exact same thing. they nerfed the bitrates down from the XC15 down to a single DIGIC DV and reduced heat envelope and slapped in a super-35 sensor. to get around cropping issues, they simply put in a low resolution sensor from one of their other camera lines and called things good.

it would be close enough really that probably all the EF-M lenses would work okay.

highly speculative but shoving a 24MP aps-c sensor and getting it to do good 4k would be most likely problematic for Canon. it would have around a 1.3 to 1.4 crop unless they upped their game dramatically.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 11, 2018)

My guess is that the sensor will not be anything exclusive or special. It could be a new sensor, but it would be recycled through a few other cameras that are coming in the future (like the 90D)

I doubt they would do a native 4K resolution sensor like the Cinema EOS.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 11, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> My guess is that the sensor will not be anything exclusive or special. It could be a new sensor, but it would be recycled through a few other cameras that are coming in the future (like the 90D)
> 
> I doubt they would do a native 4K resolution sensor like the Cinema EOS.



I don't know. it makes no sense to be side by side the M6 so soon. the silhouette we are going by was the M6, not the M5. if it was a fill rez 4k stills and video why not just replace the m5 which is due for an upgrade?

who knows, but there will sure be alot of speculation until the darn thing is out.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 11, 2018)

What I'm curious about is the pricing.

Z CAM E1 Mini 4K is $249 (4k30p m43)
Panasonic G7 is $600 (4K30p m43)
Sony a6300 is $800 (4K30p APSC)
Sony a6500 is $1300 (4K30p APSC + IBIS)
Panasonic GH5 is $2000 (4k60p m43 + IBIS)
Panasonic GH5s is $2500 (4k60p m43)

Which camera will it be directly competing against? (and others not on this list)....


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## transpo1 (Feb 11, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> What I'm curious about is the pricing.
> 
> Z CAM E1 Mini 4K is $249 (4k30p m43)
> Panasonic G7 is $600 (4K30p m43)
> ...



I wonder if it will be much more pricey than people are expecting. It's unlike Canon to put 4K in something and not charge a premium for it. 

To answer your question, though- a camera like this with decent and efficient 4K codec and crop and DPAF would keep a lot of vloggers from jumping ship to the GH5 and A6500. All Canon really has to do is give it a consumer friendly codec without a crop and many would stay in the fold. Or come back to it if they have Canon glass. Canon seems to care about the vlogger demo so that may be who they are targeting.

If it had 4K 60p (which I don't expect) with no crop, they could easily charge $1.5 to $2K for this thing and people would pay it to have DPAF.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 11, 2018)

My guess is close to $2000, but will struggle to compete with the $600 G7. Since competing would mean undermining the Cinema EOS series.

People have been comparing the G7 to the C200, commenting how close they are for the massive price difference.
http://www.4kshooters.net/2017/12/18/canon-c200-vs-panasonic-g7-can-you-guess-which-is-which/

The Panasonic lacks Canon's color science, sensor size and autofocus (among other things)... a Canon competitor to the G7 would have all those features, and suddenly the gap to the C200 becomes a lot smaller (for those who do not need all the pro level features, connectivity and all other things associated with the EOS Cinema series.)


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## bhf3737 (Feb 11, 2018)

Talys said:


> Great. Hopefully, some people will shut up now. ;D


Let's hope. But not so sure. As long as there are buzz words to whine. Ok, here there are a few:
DCI, 4:2:2, IBIS, 10 bit, 60P, vector scope, db, HDMI out, shutter angle, SDI, XLR, waveform, 400mbps, zebra, cine-lens, super 35, and after those, will come 6k, buttons and many of them, and finally all should be free!


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## transpo1 (Feb 11, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Great. Hopefully, some people will shut up now. ;D
> ...



All the 4K haters on this forum should realize that if people are shouting at your company for the features they want on future products, that is a *VERY* good problem to have, and only shows how Canon products are highly valued and how loyal those customers are.

The intelligent ones at Canon will take that as a compliment and a gift, whether or not they give those loud 4K people what they want


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## Architect1776 (Feb 11, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> We <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/will-the-next-mirrorless-camera-from-canon-have-4k-video-cr1/">reported last month</a> that the next mirrorless from Canon would shoot 4K video and it looks like we’ve confirmed that it will.</p>
> <p>This would make the EOS M50 the first APS-C shooter in the Canon lineup to shoot 4K and adds a bit of <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-sends-invites-to-dealers-for-major-mirrorless-presentation-next-month/">credence to that special</a> invite from one of Canon’s subsidiaries we were told about last month</p>
> <p>The EOS M50 will remain an EF-M mount camera. Unfortunately, we have no other specifications at this time.</p>
> <p><em>More to come…</em></p>
> <span id="pty_trigger"></span>



When the M5 has about 30 mp minimum, 10fps, 4K and low noise with high DR I will snag it up immediately. Canon needs to pull out all the stops on a new M5 and impress us like nothing else. I want to revive my FD, FL and R lenses with a top quality M series camera to match the quality of my old L lenses.


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## Talys (Feb 11, 2018)

Architect1776 said:


> When the M5 has about 30 mp minimum, 10fps, 4K and low noise with high DR I will snag it up immediately. Canon needs to pull out all the stops on a new M5 and impress us like nothing else. I want to revive my FD, FL and R lenses with a top quality M series camera to match the quality of my old L lenses.



Since nothing remotely resembling this exists in any APSC camera, I think you'll be disappointed for a while 




transpo1 said:


> All the 4K haters on this forum should realize that if people are shouting at your company for the features they want on future products, that is a *VERY* good problem to have, and only shows how Canon products are highly valued and how loyal those customers are.
> 
> The intelligent ones at Canon will take that as a compliment and a gift, whether or not they give those loud 4K people what they want



I'm not a 4K hater. I just don't want to pay any extra money for it as a feature, because I'll never use it.


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## transpo1 (Feb 11, 2018)

Talys said:


> Architect1776 said:
> 
> 
> > When the M5 has about 30 mp minimum, 10fps, 4K and low noise with high DR I will snag it up immediately. Canon needs to pull out all the stops on a new M5 and impress us like nothing else. I want to revive my FD, FL and R lenses with a top quality M series camera to match the quality of my old L lenses.
> ...



Good thing there are many EOS-M cameras from which to choose


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## rrcphoto (Feb 11, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> bhf3737 said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



there's a difference between thinking that 4K should be on select cameras with targeted ergonomics and capabilities versus screaming and stomping around that EVERY SINGLE camera NEEDS to have it.

what I'm surprised about is that some can't see the difference there.

Frankly video on a DSLR is half a solution. if and when Canon gets full frame DPAF and video on a mirrorless, then you have something that SHOULD definitely have top notch video.


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## transpo1 (Feb 11, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > bhf3737 said:
> ...



Mirrorless is of course better for video- and as soon as they have a mirrorless with FF 4K 60p and no crop, friendly but quality codec and 1080 120p, I’ll be satisfied. 

Also- it’s always funny to me how those who are screaming and stomping accuse others of screaming and stomping.


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## Talys (Feb 11, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a 4K hater. I just don't want to pay any extra money for it as a feature, because I'll never use it.
> ...



Well, when it becomes a "standard enthusiast feature", which well may happen moving forward, I'm happy to have it on the camera even if I don't use it. 

That being said, I do not own a MILC yet because I'm not really happy with the best EVFs on the market yet, but I have almost an M5 a half dozen times for other reasons (mostly GAS). If the M50 is not too expensive and feels great to me, who knows, maybe Canon will make me open up my wallet.



transpo1 said:


> Mirrorless is of course better for video- and as soon as they have a mirrorless with FF 4K 60p and no crop, friendly but quality codec and 1080 120p, I’ll be satisfied.
> 
> Also- it’s always funny to me how those who are screaming and stomping accuse others of screaming and stomping.



If by "they" you mean Canon, you'll kind of need to wait til they have a mirrorless FF at all 

But by then, people will probably want 6k or 8k, or whatever 

Anyways, save yourself the heartache, and just buy that $3,500 broadcast quality camcorder someone linked earlier today. That sounds like a sweet video rig. As those come down in price, perhaps the appeal of a $3000 mirrorless FF to make 4k video will diminish.


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## transpo1 (Feb 11, 2018)

Talys said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



Yes, you are correct- a mirrorless FF camera with 4K will require a mirrorless FF camera. : 

If I had wanted a broadcast rig, I would have bought one long ago. I need a stills / video hybrid with the features I mentioned.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 11, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



they still have to solve problems.

which is why this may be an exciting first camera out the door this way for canon. if it shows 4k with a h.264 codec, then canon finally is in business to put it around the lineup.


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## transpo1 (Feb 11, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



I completely agree. If they do have to solve overheating and processing problems, etc., maybe this a sign that they’ve turned that corner. 

I’m excited to see how they enact this if it turns out to be true.


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## hachu21 (Feb 11, 2018)

sanj said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I'd say this is getting new sensor technology as well as a new processor. Canon's APS-C sensors have not been capable of 4K, so something has changed. Of course, any camera can be made to do 4K, but to do it right is another matter.
> ...


There's various issue for a good 4K camera :
- enough dedicaed processing power (see the specialized DV chips in the XC-15)
- thermal management (overheating problems in many existing cameras, including 5D's when used for long period)
- sensor readout speed. line skipping introduce artefacts, central cropping introduce...cropping (Tadaaa!)
- rolling shutter introduce the so-called "Jello effect". no directly linked to the readout speeds, but herited from the stills-oriented chip architecture... 
If you look at the latest Sony sensors, you'll see that a lot of work has been done to reduce drastically the readout speed, including adding on-chip procesing units.

As for Canon 24mp APSC sensor:
- there no 4K camera with it yet.
- cropping the center can't be a viable solution (think in combination with EF glass)
- the fatest cameras equipped with it are
EOS M5 : digic 7, 9 fps, 30Mbps 1080 60P video H.264
80D : Digic 6, 7 fps, 90Mbps 1080 30P video .MOV

Well, from there it seems reasonable to extrapolate : adding a good 4K footage (even 30P) without changing either processor and/or sensor type seems higly unlikely.

Maybe, the 90D with the latest digic 7 could prove me wrong. Wait and see!


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## Deleted member 380306 (Feb 11, 2018)

Even with a high price tag if it has good DR and IBIS for/on the stills front I'm in, not bothered about the mount as I tested the M5 with the canon ef 50mm 1.2 + adapter, size was not a problem, focus was fast and images were good although could be better IMO, so I'm in...

As for the 4k it's about time and I'm sure they can come up with a less heavier format than we've seen on the 5d4 and maybe that would negate the issues of heating etc 

The really question is how long do we wait? I wouldn't be surprised if we're still 'only' talking about the next year...


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## wildwalker (Feb 11, 2018)

Wow, a lot of '4K' talk here. 

Wasn't this camera supposed to sit between the m100 and m5/m6? I can't get my head around where this model is being positioned.

Does the addition of 4K make it a flagship model, and price it above the M5? Will 4K acutally be 2160p60? or will it be p30, so not that useful (maybe okay for you tubers). 

Will it have a viewfinder? or will it be an expensive add-on like the M6?

Personally, I was hoping for a lower cost M5 that has a viewfinder, with some features left out, like no mic input, lower burst mode etc. But I think the addition of 4K has complicated things.


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## mb66energy (Feb 11, 2018)

While I am not longing for 4k (home) video I am interested:
(1) Sometimes it might be good to get THE image of a fast series of frames - 4k at 30 fps is great for that.
(2) If it improves "2k" video or gives higher framerates even at the lower HD resolution (120 fps) it will be appreciated by me for some motion analysis in physics lessons.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 11, 2018)

If the 1080p is anything like the implementation on the 1DX mark II and 5D mark IV, it will be worse than the original 1DX and 5D mark III. The only quality option is shooting 4K and downsampling it yourself.


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## bhf3737 (Feb 11, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> bhf3737 said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...


The argument for loving or hating 4K is purely subjective and is not part of discussion here. We are talking about economical and technical realities vs. mythical expectations. Promoting the expectation of having 4k, 60p, full APS-C sensor read with high bit depth and bit rate from a tiny camera that is supposed to be low to mid-range, low-price, enthusiast/vlog camera is misleading and speculative at best. 
The whiners either don't know the economical and technical realities or know it and chose to agitate intentionally. Usually they use comparison with the other brand cameras as an evidence. However, their comparison is limited to a few cherry picked features rather than the whole set of features, purpose, target users and price point.


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## Talys (Feb 11, 2018)

wildwalker said:


> Wow, a lot of '4K' talk here.
> 
> Wasn't this camera supposed to sit between the m100 and m5/m6? I can't get my head around where this model is being positioned.
> 
> ...




I had exactly the same questions:

- More or less expensive than M5
- If you strip out video, better or worse than M5 for stills
- EVF + hotshoe, or just hotshoe with attachable EVF


Or, perhaps, Canon is going to screw us all up, and mess with their tortured smaller is better except when bigger is better naming convention, such that M50 is an M5-ish camera with 4k. 

Or who knows, and M50 sits between M5 and M6, but with 4k. So the M5 version that has 4k would be the M40.

8)


*I will make a guess: that the M50 is more expensive than M6 -- about the same price as M5; same format as M6 (external EVF on hotshoe); and have still photography features like M6.*



hachu21 said:


> Well, from there it seems reasonable to extrapolate : adding a good 4K footage (even 30P) without changing either processor and/or sensor type seems higly unlikely.
> 
> Maybe, the 90D with the latest digic 7 could prove me wrong. Wait and see!



It's entirely possible that it's a new processor or a variant on an existing one, like Digic7C or some such, though.


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## transpo1 (Feb 11, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > bhf3737 said:
> ...



That argument became part of the discussion because of certain people’s vehemence against those requesting that feature. 

Although we should temper them for a lower-end M50 camera, I choose to keep high expectations for Canon. You don’t get to the moon without quite literally keeping your expectations high. 

Canon needs to have the drive to push through these technical boundaries and they won’t do that unless people demand it.


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## wildwalker (Feb 11, 2018)

Talys said:


> wildwalker said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, a lot of '4K' talk here.
> ...



I am quite confused now 

For 4K, the 5DMk4 has digic 6, so if digic 6 can do uhd, can digic 7? (if you have 2 of them). So what would the EOS M50 have? 

The M5 has digic 7, and does not do 4K. Is that a marketing or technical decision (same could be asked about the EOS 6DMk2 I guess?)

M50 should be lower in the model range than M5 or M6 (using other Canon number schemes as a guide).

For me it is all about the stills performance, I am not a videographer, so it does not bother me if there is no video capabilities. I know that other people do care greatly about video, so there has to be a good balance where photographers and vloggers will be happy. 

I don't think we will see anything more than p25/p30 UHD, unless Canon decices to allow a p50/60 but at a fairly low bit rate (30-40Mb/s) which is okay for you tube, or maybe some b-roll?

I have the original EOS-M, and its impossible to use in bright sunlight, the LCD is just unusable, so like my DSLRs, I need a viewfinder, and having a £200+ option, like on the M6 is just ridiculous.

I could buy an alternative, like the Panasonic Tz100 (think thats it) but I really want to use the 11-22 mm M lens that I have, as landscape and architecture are my thing. 

Well, I guess we will have to wait and see


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## rrcphoto (Feb 11, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Canon needs to have the drive to push through these technical boundaries and they won’t do that unless people demand it.



people complaining in forum posts is not demanding it, it's simply annoying everyone else.

write to canon and express your displeasure. email chuck westfall even. that's demanding it.

similarly, write to vendors that don't support the EF-M mount ifyou want more lenses for it, such as Sigma.


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## transpo1 (Feb 11, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Canon needs to have the drive to push through these technical boundaries and they won’t do that unless people demand it.
> ...



I disagree- forums generate (and are) word of mouth. But we can do those other things you suggested, too- all good ideas.


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## Talys (Feb 11, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> I disagree- forums generate (and are) word of mouth. But we can do those other things you suggested, too- all good ideas.



Forums turn into echo chambers, like a lot of the Internet. 

In my opinion, the overwhelming majority of ILC purchasers have never posted to a camera forum before, and only see stuff in forums in the context of google/bing searches. I think that the people who post on forums like this are not representative of the market.

And to put it another way, I think most of the money in the ILC business is made off of relatively inexpensive bodies to people who own relatively few, inexpensive lenses.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 11, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



word of mouth does nothing to change the opinion of canon,et all.

if you think your opinion is worthy, then say it to the source. forums are just that, a collection of people talking, canon probably doesn't even monitor the chatter.

but stating it to chuck or canon USA? that gets talked about at the regional meetings they have.


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## EduPortas (Feb 11, 2018)

The floodgates are about to open.

4K has become popular enough for the masses, so Canon cannot ignore it any longer.

Since this will be a relatively low price consumer model, they _need_ to include that feature,
even if it's a watered-down version of 4K. 

Try to see this small, entry-level mirrorless model as a gateway-drug to Canon's high end gear and lenses.


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## unfocused (Feb 12, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



Keep in mind also that Canon does extensive market research, which is far more reliable. Self-selection skews results. Any good research requires that the researcher select the subjects, rather than the other way around. So, making noise may have some small impact, but only if the market research confirms what the squeaky wheels are saying. 

Of course, Canon also has access to massive amounts of sales data which reflects real world purchase decisions, rather than speculation.

While Canon may look at chatter on the Internet, it's almost certainly at the macro level -- unlikely to be at the granular level of individual forum posts.

Accept that no one really cares about what an individual does. What researchers care about is the aggregate. Individuals are fools. But crowds are genius.


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## stevelee (Feb 12, 2018)

EduPortas said:


> The floodgates are about to open.
> 
> 4K has become popular enough for the masses, so Canon cannot ignore it any longer.
> 
> ...



I can see how having low bitrate 4K makes sense in a relatively low-price consumer camera, but would be an embarrassment in a semi-pro/enthusiast model. When I shoot video with my iPhone, I always shoot 4K. It doesn't look half bad, and having all those pixels means I can crop down to make up partly for not having telephoto lenses on it, and still produce decent 1080p output.

I don't know where the tradeoffs are. There is likely some bitrate below which 1080p or 1080i/720p looks better than 4K, but I don't know whether that falls within the range of what is used today, and whether anybody sitting a normal distance away from a TV under 60" could tell a difference.


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## unfocused (Feb 12, 2018)

stevelee said:


> ...I don't know whether that falls within the range of what is used today, and whether anybody sitting a normal distance away from a TV under 60" could tell a difference.



Keep in mind that very little video is viewed on television sets. (Maybe a few people use television like the old home projector, but that's almost exclusively limited to self-gratification.)

Almost all video is consumed on smartphones, tablets or laptops, with smartphones being the dominant device.


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## transpo1 (Feb 12, 2018)

unfocused said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



Individual forum and social media posts make up the aggregate and macro level and if they are finally putting 4K into their consumer lineup in a serious way, then they are seeing sales data and market research that shows there is money to be made from it, which is what I’ve been saying all along. Not that I’m taking credit for it- I’m just one of many voices asking for that feature. But you can’t have the macro and aggregate without the individual. 

And speaking as one who works closely with a tech company that specializes in AI analysis of internet data, every key word counts


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## BillB (Feb 12, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



Whatever the merits expressing consumer support for more 4K video, at this point Canon is very close to a significant rollout, if this CR3 rumor is right. The big consumer input at this point will be how well this camera sells. It looks like there is going to be a camera (that decision was made a while ago) and specific design decisions were locked in a while ago too. It is hard for me to understand exactly how Internet forum chatter is going to have any influence on Canon at this point. Apparently Canon has decided to test the market, and we will likely soon know how Canon has decided to bet on 4K video techology and a lot of questions are going to get sorted out by the marketplace in the next next couple of years. Not sure how key words are going to make much of a difference at this point.


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## Deleted member 380306 (Feb 12, 2018)

I read somewhere that if they dropped the optical low-pass filter on Canon cameras if would greatly improve image quality, lets hope they do this here. 

As for 4k, well people have been asking for it for a long time but whether it's needed or not isn't really the issue, Canon not having it on new camera's they bring out has only gone on to upset consumers thus amplifying an issue were many now look at Canon as a company that likes to hold back tech from customers, we all know this has been an issue, it's a big problem with the 6dii, you pay all that money for that camera which has some top features for video, flip out screen, IS and yet we have poor video quality! And then there's that DR issue.... I welcome 4k to this camera and hope we see more tech like IS, weather proofing, in body USB charging etc


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## transpo1 (Feb 12, 2018)

BillB said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



Well, the keywords already made their impact but we’ve got to keep it going  

If the 4K in the camera’s good, I will be VERY happy to put my money where my mouth is and buy it.


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## transpo1 (Feb 12, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> I read somewhere that if they dropped the optical low-pass filter on Canon cameras if would greatly improve image quality, lets hope they do this here.
> 
> As for 4k, well people have been asking for it for a long time but whether it's needed or not isn't really the issue, Canon not having it on new camera's they bring out has only gone on to upset consumers thus amplifying an issue were many now look at Canon as a company that likes to hold back tech from customers, we all know this has been an issue, it's a big problem with the 6dii, you pay all that money for that camera which has some top features for video, flip out screen, IS and yet we have poor video quality! And then there's that DR issue.... I welcome 4k to this camera and hope we see more tech like IS, weather proofing, in body USB charging etc



This.


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## transpo1 (Feb 12, 2018)

It suddenly occurred to me that the implementation of 4K on this camera could just be a 4K photo feature at 15-20 frames per second. That would be a cruel move, though.


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## wildwalker (Feb 12, 2018)

stevelee said:


> EduPortas said:
> 
> 
> > The floodgates are about to open.
> ...



About 25Mb/s is the cut off. HEVC is generally 10 bit (but still can be 4:2:0). 10 bit adds a small overhead. If you think about it, 4K is 4xHD, and each quadrant at 25Mb/s would be a 6Mb/s HD stream (but HEVC as opposed to H264). While you could view 25Mb/s UHD quite happily, it would be useless for re-coding. But I guess that is not where the M series are aimed at, so that would be okay.


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## wildwalker (Feb 12, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> It suddenly occurred to me that the implementation of 4K on this camera could just be a 4K photo feature at 15-20 frames per second. That would be a cruel move, though.



I agree, also it is still a rumour, shouldn't forget that also. Unless the M5 is going to go end of life very soon, it seems unlikely a lower price model will have 4K, unless Canon either make the 4K very low spec (super low bit rate, really crappy framerate 15-25fps).

Or, this lower model (in M no.) will be more expensive, or about the same price as the M5, in which case as a consumer you buy the body that best suits you, M5 for photos, M50 for video?

I'm normally completely wrong on these things, so don't worry


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## Canoneer (Feb 12, 2018)

Where is the M50 supposed to be competing price wise? Is this an entry-level 4K vlog camera at the $600 range? Or is this going up against the Panny GH5S/Sony a7S II in the enthusiast/semi-pro space?


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## mkabi (Feb 12, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> It suddenly occurred to me that the implementation of 4K on this camera could just be a 4K photo feature at 15-20 frames per second. That would be a cruel move, though.



lol... Technically that is true. It still makes it a 4K camera and stands as CR3. 
Fuji did that with the X-A5:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1387598-REG/fujifilm_16568913_x_a5_digital_camera_with.html

Note how they tout the X-A5 as having UHD 4K recording and separately as having 4K burst mode up to 15fps.
Only after further investigation into the specs do you find out that 4K video recording is only 15p. lol.


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## jedy (Feb 12, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> TonyPicture said:
> 
> 
> > I read somewhere that if they dropped the optical low-pass filter on Canon cameras if would greatly improve image quality, lets hope they do this here.
> ...


For the sake of complaining customers and the fact other companies have implemented 4K, Canon should too. Although this goes against my belief that 4K isn't necessary for consumers 'posting vids on YouTube' (aka non-professional content creators), Canon will get left behind if they don't have a usable 4K option - the 4K on the 5D IV really seemed like just an excuse to write 4K on the spec sheet. Even if 4K on the M50 isn't wildly impressive, at least it would be a start and something Canon can keep working on to improve for future cameras. 

Also something to bear in mind, most professional cine cameras use a super 35mm sensor which is about the equivalent size to an aps-c sensor. The popular Panasonic GH* range are x2 crop (in 1080p mode). Until cameras have the technology to use the full sensor without overheating, I wouldn't see having cropped 4K as too big of an issue. Not sure how Canon will handle this in a crop camera though as the sensor size is already at equivalent super 35mm proportions. My Blackmagic 4K production camera has a 1.7 crop - not great but perfectly usable (if I avoid ultrawide focal lengths).


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## Talys (Feb 12, 2018)

wildwalker said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > It suddenly occurred to me that the implementation of 4K on this camera could just be a 4K photo feature at 15-20 frames per second. That would be a cruel move, though.
> ...



If it is in the same format as m6 (external evf), the M5 should continue to sell just fine. If M5 and m50 were feature identical except one had built in evf and one had 4k, I think a lot of people would still buy M5.

If you're only interested in still photography, having a viewfinder AND a hot shoe at the same time is preferable to a video resolution you won't use.

If m50 had a built in RT controller, that might compensate some, but even so, it doesn't solve on camera flash requirements.


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## wildwalker (Feb 12, 2018)

Talys said:


> wildwalker said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



I am afraid for me that no viewfinder means I won't be buying the M50. I do hope it does have one, although I can't escape the feeling this will be a vloggers camera.

If not then I will probably either buy the Lumix DMC-TZ100, or save for an M5, who knows maybe the M50 will mean a price drop for the M5? (hears laughing in the background).

Ah well.


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## The Fat Fish (Feb 12, 2018)

Finally some good news from Canon. The EOS M5 was a good camera but fell short of competitors offerings due to video functionality, lens lineup and DR. Competing in video knock another hurdle off the list. Add the same DR improvements in the 80D and 5DIV and that's another step closer. One huge issue for Canon is EF-M lineup. I'm not investing in anymore Canon lenses until I know where Canon are going. If they pick EF then it's fine, if they pick EF-M then I really need to see some solid glass before investing.


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## wildwalker (Feb 12, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> Finally some good news from Canon. The EOS M5 was a good camera but fell short of competitors offerings due to video functionality, lens lineup and DR. Competing in video knock another hurdle off the list. Add the same DR improvements in the 80D and 5DIV and that's another step closer. One huge issue for Canon is EF-M lineup. I'm not investing in anymore Canon lenses until I know where Canon are going. If they pick EF then it's fine, if they pick EF-M then I really need to see some solid glass before investing.



I'm pretty sure this will have the same 24Mpx sensor as the M5/M6. So don't expect any DR improvements. Remember, this body is 'rumoured' to sit between the M5/M6 and the M100. So don't expect it to trump the M5 in overall feature set.

As I have said before, I could be totally wrong, but a 4K enabled, increased DR M5 sounds like a pretty expensive bit of kit, and way outside of what the M50 is expected to be. 

If the M50 is that good, then it's either going to be really expensive, or the rest of the M range is either going to have to come down in price, or be discontinued.

Here's hoping though


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## The Fat Fish (Feb 12, 2018)

wildwalker said:


> As I have said before, I could be totally wrong, but a 4K enabled, increased DR M5 sounds like a pretty expensive bit of kit, and way outside of what the M50 is expected to be.



I'd love to see Canon compete in terms of price vs features. Let's take the equivalent Sony and Fuji Cameras.

EOS M5:

DR - 12.4 EV
Video - (soft) 1080p
FPS - 7fps
Price - $930

Sony A6300:

DR - 13.7 EV
Video - 4K
FPS - 11fps
Price - $800

Fuji X-T20:

DR - 13.5 EV (roughly)
Video - 4K
FPS - 8-11fps
Price - $900

That's noticeably less of a camera for more money. This approach stretches across Canon's entire lineup but their mirrorless is where it's most clear because it has a far weaker lens lineup. I really like my 6D and would like to think I have a future with Canon but they really must do better.

I remain optimistic. They can't have another 6DII release and I think they now know this.


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## Sharlin (Feb 12, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> I remain optimistic. They can't have another 6DII release and I think they now know this.



Evidence points to the 6D2 selling quite well and all the crying on forums being just a tiny blip on Canon's radar.


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## wildwalker (Feb 12, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> wildwalker said:
> 
> 
> > As I have said before, I could be totally wrong, but a 4K enabled, increased DR M5 sounds like a pretty expensive bit of kit, and way outside of what the M50 is expected to be.
> ...



Watch any review on the A6300 4K and the rolling shutter is laughable. I don't want to sound like a fanboy here, but I am looking at the A6300 myself as an alternative (along with the Panasonic TZ100) and all the reviews say the 4K is useless, unless its static shots on a tripod.

As video is not my focus, I don't care. But comparing specs is one thing, but real world use has shown that specs are not everything.

Also, the DR is about the same, specs are misleading. When you take real comparison shots, there is almost no difference. (look for comparisons on youtube). 

Price point however is another story. If I had no kit, the Sony/Panasonic would be a really great deal. Already having the 18-55 and 11-22 EF-M lenses, makes me want a Canon to use those with (especially the 11-22)

I am being selfish here because video, and burst modes mean nothing to me, my landscape and architecture subjects rarely move 

However, while the specs of the cameras you mention sound alluring, they do have their issues (overheating Sony A6300s are another issue).

That said, I would buy any of these as an alternative, especially the Panasonic TZ100 as it fits in the pocket.

I'm still hoping for the M50 to have the APS-C 24Mpx sensor with DPAF and a viewfinder for £500


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## preppyak (Feb 13, 2018)

The idea that Canon's full frame 6dII didnt need 4k, but a mid-level APS-C mirrorless did is just inane thinking from Canon.

I assume the 90D will get it as will further cameras down the line, but this is still just laughable that they go so over the top to protect their own lineup, then make weird choices like this


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## Talys (Feb 13, 2018)

preppyak said:


> The idea that Canon's full frame 6dII didnt need 4k, but a mid-level APS-C mirrorless did is just inane thinking from Canon.
> 
> I assume the 90D will get it as will further cameras down the line, but this is still just laughable that they go so over the top to protect their own lineup, then make weird choices like this



Why? There are plenty of people who want a full frame camera for photography and don't want to pay a premium for more video features.

Conversely, there are plenty of people who want 4k, but don't care about whether a camera is full frame or not -- and who just don't want to spend a few thousand dollars (including lenses).


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## wildwalker (Feb 13, 2018)

Talys said:


> preppyak said:
> 
> 
> > The idea that Canon's full frame 6dII didnt need 4k, but a mid-level APS-C mirrorless did is just inane thinking from Canon.
> ...



I agree, the 6D range is a photographers camera first, as are all the DSLRs. Video has only been added due to pressure from competitors and the market, but it is not the primary function of any DSLR.

I would rather Canon spend all the development dollars on image quality for stills. Perhaps releasing a lower priced 'C' camera for video enthusiasts/vloggers.

Do people really need 4K? especially vloggers. I can see the use of having a larger frame to crop, so say a 2K size, but most content just doesn't justify 4K when it's amateur footage.


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## Deleted member 380306 (Feb 13, 2018)

Why does it take Canon so long to bring a camera out? I believe Nikon just get on with it like they did with 850, or are they just as bad?

We'll still be here next year and for those harping on 'to 4k or not to 4k' IMO the 6dii should have had a much better image quality compared to the 6d 2012 version that's the more important upgrade which just did not happen...


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## Mikehit (Feb 13, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> Why does it take Canon so long to bring a camera out? I believe Nikon just get on with it like they did with 850, or are they just as bad?
> 
> We'll still be here next year and for those harping on 'to 4k or not to 4k' IMO the 6dii should have had a much better image quality compared to the 6d 2012 version that's the more important upgrade which just did not happen...



How long do you think it took Nikon to design, develop, beta test and release the D850?
Many people who actually use the 6D2 say it does does have better image quality than the 6D, just not in the way people were predicting or in the way they hoped. Nikon sees buying in sensors as their route to gaining ground on Canon, Canon consider sensor quality to be lower down the list or priorities so are happy to keep manufacturing their own sensors. 

I do wish people wold look on a camera as a tool rather than thinking it is all about the sensor.


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## Deleted member 380306 (Feb 13, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> TonyPicture said:
> 
> 
> > Why does it take Canon so long to bring a camera out? I believe Nikon just get on with it like they did with 850, or are they just as bad?
> ...



Having purchased a 6d2 I can say it's poor in terms of image quality and hardly any change compared to my old 6d, I also own a Sony a7ii the DR is amazing(shame about the colours but it dose render amazing detail with lots of DR) so from my point of view after 6yrs it seems the bonus is that they added a very useful flip out screen plus some good focusing but failed to improve on the image side, for me it's more about the clarity of a portrait and rendering of detail in shots than thinking it's 'only a tool'...

Not sure how long Nikon took to develop the d850 but did they a spend along time talking about it, or did they just get on and release it? Hopefully Canon will give us something soon...


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## wildwalker (Feb 13, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> TonyPicture said:
> 
> 
> > Why does it take Canon so long to bring a camera out? I believe Nikon just get on with it like they did with 850, or are they just as bad?
> ...



If you look at reviews about the IQ (ignoring the idiotic ones about 4K) then they are generally positive about the IQ of the 6D, many reviewers saying it falls between the 5DMk3 and 5DMk4, not bad for a camera at half the cost.

4 or 5 years is a reasonable time frame for a camera of this complexity, especially when you factor in that year on year advancements in photo technology are quite slow, which is why the higher refresh at the lower end of the market never really delivers much in the way of performance boosts, unless something happened that year like a bump in sensor technology.

Everytime the image quality is increased, the next increase is that much harder to attain, and generally it is smaller, that's how development goes. Yes occasionally something comes along to advance IQ, but it takes time, which is why a 4-5 year refresh cycle makes sense.

I still think 4K (or any video) on DSLR cameras is a waste of money, the focus is still on still images, thats what photographers mainly buy them for. Most of the video functions are after thoughts, the audio is generally crap and the usability compared to a video-centric devices is poor.

If your focus is video, and you want a video camera, go and buy one. Right tool for the right job and all that. I think Canon are spot on ignoring pressure for a feature that a lot of people rant about, but rarely use.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 13, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> so from my point of view after 6yrs



more like 4.8 but who's counting.


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## Talys (Feb 13, 2018)

wildwalker said:


> If you look at reviews about the IQ (ignoring the idiotic ones about 4K) then they are generally positive about the IQ of the 6D, many reviewers saying it falls between the 5DMk3 and 5DMk4, not bad for a camera at half the cost.



As an owner of a 6DII, that's exactly where it is. 




wildwalker said:


> I still think 4K (or any video) on DSLR cameras is a waste of money, the focus is still on still images, thats what photographers mainly buy them for. Most of the video functions are after thoughts, the audio is generally crap and the usability compared to a video-centric devices is poor.
> 
> If your focus is video, and you want a video camera, go and buy one. Right tool for the right job and all that. I think Canon are spot on ignoring pressure for a feature that a lot of people rant about, but rarely use.



Couldn't agree more. The form factor is totally wrong. I have repeatedly posted that I can't imagine why someone would want to spend thousands of dollars on the wrong device for the job, if their goal is to produce great video.

If it's wedding/event videos, I think a real camcorder would be a far superior tool. And it's not like a professional photographer can say, "okay, I'm going to swap between taking wedding videos and wedding photos so I can do it all on this one device". I mean, you'd want the wedding camcorder to be recording (and manned) and be taking wedding photos at the same time... right?

Home videos, all 4k does is force you to downsample it, because you can't share 4k videos with most people.

For vloggers and such, the only benefit to 4k that I can see is that you can use the wrong lens and crop to zoom. Which seems to me, you'd be better off using the right lens.


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## alienman (Feb 13, 2018)

I understand the importance of image quality being made, it is something canon has going for them along with a long line of top quality glass. I believe it is safe to say 4k is technology that is becoming expected from our devices. Who cares what people are using if for, I use it because it looks a lot better that 1080 even at low bit rates. Other companies are offering it so why shouldn’t canon give it to us. There are also more 4k displays on the market at affordable prices (as low as $200). I am hoping for more new innovative features from canon in the future along with the supreme image quality to put and end to all of the chatter that I hear about why Sony is a better choice in 2018 because of their innovation and they are the company of the future.

I agree with the comments about buying a video camera for high end production work. I believe that is the route that will be taken by anyone in their right mind. With that being said I wouldn’t mind if canon implemented 4k into their mirrorless and dslr’s at a low bit rate of 50mb/s and affordable price. This would not propose any threat to their cinema line.


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## crazyrunner33 (Feb 13, 2018)

Why do people assume that professionals in the video world hate the DSLR form factor? I'm a video producer in the marketing world, and I prefer the DSLR body over the traditional camera body, and there are many others who feel the same way. Why do we like the DSLR? Because it's compact, and blends in with the crowd. We love that large sensor look, and we enjoy being able to move around without raising an eyebrow or becoming overly fatigue. We like that the DSLR is versatile and can be rigged with all the gear we need for an A camera shot, or configure it to fly on a gimbal, or run it hand held and use the neck strap and IBS to help create steady run and gun footage. Yeah, there are instances where we want a dedicated video camera like a C200, but we also want something light weight and discreet in our tool kit. 

There's also a big misunderstanding about 4K. Everyone assumes that 4K is only about pixel resolution, but they completely forget about incredible changes to dynamic range and color resolution that comes with the new Rec 2020 standard.


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## wildwalker (Feb 13, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> Why do people assume that professionals in the video world hate the DSLR form factor? I'm a video producer in the marketing world, and I prefer the DSLR body over the traditional camera body, and there are many others who feel the same way. Why do we like the DSLR? Because it's compact, and blends in with the crowd. We love that large sensor look, and we enjoy being able to move around without raising an eyebrow or becoming overly fatigue. We like that the DSLR is versatile and can be rigged with all the gear we need for an A camera shot, or configure it to fly on a gimbal, or run it hand held and use the neck strap and IBS to help create steady run and gun footage. Yeah, there are instances where we want a dedicated video camera like a C200, but we also want something light weight and discreet in our tool kit.
> 
> There's also a big misunderstanding about 4K. Everyone assumes that 4K is only about pixel resolution, but they completely forget about incredible changes to dynamic range and color resolution that comes with the new Rec 2020 standard.



rec 2100 brings WCG to HD, so rec 2020 doesn't really have that advantage anymore. BT2084 (HDR) is applicable to both HD and UHD (in part of rec 2100 I think), so again, not necessarily an advantage for UHD.

Also UHD Phase 1 used rec 709, the same colour space as HD, so again, you have to know what spec your UHD kit is working to.


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## zim (Feb 13, 2018)

Do you think there is any chance Canon will start designing these M's to take a battery grip?
The M5 type with battery grip accessory would make the world of difference for me ergonomically and of course more juice


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## wildwalker (Feb 13, 2018)

zim said:


> Do you think there is any chance Canon will start designing these M's to take a battery grip?
> The M5 type with battery grip accessory would make the world of difference for me ergonomically and of course more juice



I would say no. The ethos behind the M series is size (one of the points of Mirrorless is you can make the body smaller, as there are very few mechanically moving parts).

The only reason that the body would be imbalanced is if you are using the mount adapter and a non M lens. If you did this, and threw on a battery box, then you may as well have purchased the SL2, 1200D, 750D etc.

If you want something that is more balanced, and you obviously are not size conscious, if you don't mind a battery box, then buy a normal DSLR.

If you do want more battery life, buy a spare battery and put it in your pocket, or if you are lucky, the M50 will allow USB charging, so you can just use the same power bank you charge your phone with to extend battery life.


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## Rocky (Feb 14, 2018)

wildwalker said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think there is any chance Canon will start designing these M's to take a battery grip?
> ...



The 35-135 EF balances very well with adapter with my M and M2. Both do not even have a real grip. I am holding it in the “old school” way by cradling my left hand under the lens. This is the prefer way to hold the camera with lens longer than the standard lens at the time that there is not a single camera has a grip


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## zim (Feb 14, 2018)

Rocky said:


> wildwalker said:
> 
> 
> > zim said:
> ...



To both, personal preference is just that. Used to have a 500d, really didn't like that, nothing to do with balance (small primes) I hate fingers wrapping under the base plate I find that very uncomfortable after any length of time these small camera's are the same, always been like that even with SLRs.
The nice thing about a removable battery grip is that you don't need to use them. But those that do can.
Maybe I could hack an old power winder up and use the space inside to store a spare battery or two 

@Rocky "Old School"  I can't imagine holding a camera any other way whilst taking pictures


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## scyrene (Feb 14, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> That argument became part of the discussion because of certain people’s vehemence against those requesting that feature.



Winky face or not, I can't recall seeing anyone 'vehemently against' 4K, perhaps you could share some quotes?


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## scyrene (Feb 14, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> Not sure how long Nikon took to develop the d850 but did they a spend along time talking about it, or did they just get on and release it? Hopefully Canon will give us something soon...



I think you may be confused. This is a rumour website. This isn't 'Canon talking' about their upcoming products, which they almost never do. This is piecing together hearsay, and trying to find out what is coming. I'm sure the rumour websites for other brands talk about the possible future releases for just as long in advance as is the case here.


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## stevelee (Feb 14, 2018)

Perhaps of some interest or relevance to this topic (or perhaps not), is a video that compares iPhone X 4K video to 1080p on a G7X II.

http://designtaxi.com/news/398308/Watch-iPhone-X-VS-Canon-s-Popular-High-End-G7-X-Mark-II-Compact-Camera/

Obviously the Canon's advantages over the iPhone would be most obvious in stills shot in RAW, but I found this interesting. In my case I sometimes shoot 4K on my iPhone 6S, and do some video with my G7X II when I travel, using whichever seems more suited to the task at hand. The differences in the video however do not seem to be that related to 4K vs. 1080p. Some messages here seem to reflect a belief that all 4K is going to be better than all 1080p, but maybe I'm too harsh. All things being equal, all things are rarely equal in reality.


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## wildwalker (Feb 14, 2018)

stevelee said:


> Perhaps of some interest or relevance to this topic (or perhaps not), is a video that compares iPhone X 4K video to 1080p on a G7X II.
> 
> http://designtaxi.com/news/398308/Watch-iPhone-X-VS-Canon-s-Popular-High-End-G7-X-Mark-II-Compact-Camera/
> 
> Obviously the Canon's advantages over the iPhone would be most obvious in stills shot in RAW, but I found this interesting. In my case I sometimes shoot 4K on my iPhone 6S, and do some video with my G7X II when I travel, using whichever seems more suited to the task at hand. The differences in the video however do not seem to be that related to 4K vs. 1080p. Some messages here seem to reflect a belief that all 4K is going to be better than all 1080p, but maybe I'm too harsh. All things being equal, all things are rarely equal in reality.



With 4 x the resolution, 4k should be a winner over 1080p. But of course the 4K has to have enough bit rate. 1080 is normally h.264 whereas 4K is now generally HEVC. HEVC is not as mature as h.264 and so codecs can be poor (wouldn't expect that with Canon though).

4K at p30 looks worse than 1080 at the same frame rate though (because 4K is normally consumed on a much larger screen, so the judder is more noticeable).


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## Talys (Feb 15, 2018)

wildwalker said:


> With 4 x the resolution, 4k should be a winner over 1080p. But of course the 4K has to have enough bit rate. 1080 is normally h.264 whereas 4K is now generally HEVC. HEVC is not as mature as h.264 and so codecs can be poor (wouldn't expect that with Canon though).
> 
> 4K at p30 looks worse than 1080 at the same frame rate though (because 4K is normally consumed on a much larger screen, so the judder is more noticeable).



The real question becomes:

Do people buy the M50 because they want to record 4k video, or do they buy the M50 because they want a digital camera that is able to record 4k video?

If it's just a checkbox, they won't really care, and in the end, I suspect a lot of these people will goof around with 4k and end up recording 1080 and be happy with smaller files. Of course, that's not to say that some people won't genuinely want/need to record 4k video. For these folks, we'll soon find out whether the M50 is great, good enough, good enough considering EF lenses, or inferior to other alternatives.


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## slclick (Feb 15, 2018)

Talys said:


> wildwalker said:
> 
> 
> > With 4 x the resolution, 4k should be a winner over 1080p. But of course the 4K has to have enough bit rate. 1080 is normally h.264 whereas 4K is now generally HEVC. HEVC is not as mature as h.264 and so codecs can be poor (wouldn't expect that with Canon though).
> ...



When has a client been able to tell the difference? This is of course assuming Canon gear being used. The never ending rallying cry is 95% from spec sheet droolers. I know there are fine video shooters out there with legit concerns but you're in the minority.


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## wildwalker (Feb 15, 2018)

slclick said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > wildwalker said:
> ...



I guess there are two customer bases for this body. (1) The photographer who is pushed for space, and needs something smaller on occasions, who will probably experiment with video, but most of the time be taking photographs. (2) Vloggers, who 99% of the time won't touch that shutter button, but will use the 4K (assuming its not got some annoying limitations like x mins of recording, or only 15fps etc.)


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## Random Orbits (Feb 15, 2018)

Talys said:


> wildwalker said:
> 
> 
> > With 4 x the resolution, 4k should be a winner over 1080p. But of course the 4K has to have enough bit rate. 1080 is normally h.264 whereas 4K is now generally HEVC. HEVC is not as mature as h.264 and so codecs can be poor (wouldn't expect that with Canon though).
> ...



Perhaps Canon has finally developed 4K so that it can be done efficiently enough to include on all cameras. We saw it first on the 1DC then 1DX II/5DIV, but even then people complained about crop factors and storage requirements. Hopefully an efficient 4K will be the baseline going forward.

I don't mind that the M50 gets the feature before the M5/M6. I'd rather Canon get the technology right and introduce it into the product when it ready.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 15, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> Why do people assume that professionals in the video world hate the DSLR form factor? I'm a video producer in the marketing world, and I prefer the DSLR body over the traditional camera body, and there are many others who feel the same way. Why do we like the DSLR? Because it's compact, and blends in with the crowd. We love that large sensor look, and we enjoy being able to move around without raising an eyebrow or becoming overly fatigue. We like that the DSLR is versatile and can be rigged with all the gear we need for an A camera shot, or configure it to fly on a gimbal, or run it hand held and use the neck strap and IBS to help create steady run and gun footage. Yeah, there are instances where we want a dedicated video camera like a C200, but we also want something light weight and discreet in our tool kit.



you are confusing ILC form factor with DSLR. DSLR's with an optical viewfinder is certainly not the most optimum solution to the problem. Mirrorless with an EVF is more of a complete hybrid solution.


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## Tugela (Feb 20, 2018)

Random Orbits said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > wildwalker said:
> ...



Apparently the camera has a Digic 8 processor in it, which is the stills equivalent of the Digic DV6 in the XF400/405/GX10 camcorders. So it will likely shoot similar quality 4K footage, but probably only up to 30p due to the extra pixels in the sensor.

From what I have seen the of footage from those camcorders tend to have dubious resolution so I expect the video from the M50 to be substandard compared to most of it's competitors.


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## Tugela (Feb 20, 2018)

preppyak said:


> The idea that Canon's full frame 6dII didnt need 4k, but a mid-level APS-C mirrorless did is just inane thinking from Canon.
> 
> I assume the 90D will get it as will further cameras down the line, but this is still just laughable that they go so over the top to protect their own lineup, then make weird choices like this



The processors available during 6DII development did not allow for hardware 4K encoding without a cooling solution, so it did not have 4K included. The Digic 7 that was available at the time could do hardware 4K, but it would have required a fan, which obviously was a non starter on a DSLR. The Digic 8 should be coming out around now (this is the stills equivalent of the Digic DV6 which is already being used in the latest prosumer camcorders from Canon), it remains to be seen if it requires cooling or not. The XF400/405 appear to have vents, so they may have fans, but we will see if they are needed for less demanding 4K options, such as 30p (the XF400 series should 4K at up to 60p). If fans are not required for 4K60p then the M50 may well be able to shoot hardware encoded 4K. But I think either as a crop or with pixel binning/line skipping as I doubt it would be able to oversample (that would generate more heat and presumably require a fan again)


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## Tugela (Feb 20, 2018)

wildwalker said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > TonyPicture said:
> ...



You don't get it. Most people who buy these sorts of cameras for video also take stills. They want a hybrid camera, not have to carry two separate systems around with them. Video is included to address this market, which probably includes most consumer videographers these days since the consumer/prosumer camcorder market is essentially dead now.

EVERYONE who used to shoot video on camcorders, and who nowdays does not use a cell phone, uses some sort of ILC or fixed lens hybrid. That is why it is so important to include video functions in any camera directed at consumers. Even pros want it, since many are required to shoot both stills and video on jobs, and it certainly helps to have a single camera that does both.


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## Tugela (Feb 20, 2018)

Talys said:


> wildwalker said:
> 
> 
> > If you look at reviews about the IQ (ignoring the idiotic ones about 4K) then they are generally positive about the IQ of the 6D, many reviewers saying it falls between the 5DMk3 and 5DMk4, not bad for a camera at half the cost.
> ...



I can only assume that you have never shot in 4K.

You do realize that currently just about every large screen TV in the price range sweet spot is 4K capable right?


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## Tugela (Feb 20, 2018)

unfocused said:


> stevelee said:
> 
> 
> > ...I don't know whether that falls within the range of what is used today, and whether anybody sitting a normal distance away from a TV under 60" could tell a difference.
> ...



Are you not aware that modern TV sets include Youtube and other video apps? Big screen TVs kick ass for watching that sort of stuff.

Not to mention that it is common for people to attach computers to their TVs as well.


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## Tugela (Feb 20, 2018)

wildwalker said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > wildwalker said:
> ...



Digic 7 has the hardware to do 4K encoding (it is basically the same as the Digic DV5), but presumably it gets too hot with a cooling solution. Cameras with the DV5 have fans in them, so it is not an issue for those.


----------



## Tugela (Feb 20, 2018)

unfocused said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



All the market research counts for squat if the hardware available to you can't do what that research tells you to do and still remain economical.

Everyone here thinks that Canon are conservative and are giving the consumers what they really want. But that is not true. They are giving the consumers what they are CAPABLE of giving, and spinning a fantasy that it is what the consumers want. Two different things.

The rapidly increasing success of the competition which does implement 4K should have given a hint, but there is a whole lot of blinker wearing going on among the fanbois.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 20, 2018)

Tugela said:


> [lApparently the camera has a Digic 8 processor in it...



Will all cameras with Digic 8 shoot 4K? Because that's what you said about Digic 7...


----------



## canonnews (Feb 20, 2018)

Nokshita released specs and a pic!

This is definately sitting just under an M5. note the ergonomic differences.






Specs:
24.1 Megapixels APS-C CMOS
Dual pixel CMOS AF
DIGIC 8
4K video
Standard ISO: 100-25600 (extended ISO: 51200)
Continuous: Up to 10 frames / sec (at servo AF: up to 7.4 frames / sec)
EVF: 2.36 million dot organic EL
3 type 104 million dots Bali angle touch panel liquid crystal
Wi-Fi · Bluetooth · NFC installed
Supports the next-generation CR3 RAW format and the new C-RAW compression format
The C - RAW format is 40% smaller in file size than conventional RAW, and it corresponds to in - camera RAW development and digital lens optimizer
Color: Black / White
In overseas stores there are stores to start reservation on February 27

There's some big news here with this. New CR3 format, DIGIC 8 making an appearance for 4K video and M50 gets a variable angle display up from tilt.

this with a vari angle display, DPAF and finally 4K just may be the vlogger camera of choice from Canon.


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2018)

Tugela said:


> Digic 7 has the hardware to do 4K encoding (it is basically the same as the Digic DV5), but presumably it gets too hot with a cooling solution. Cameras with the DV5 have fans in them, so it is not an issue for those.



yes, heat buildup in a small body.... and for some strange (at least to forum users) reason Canon does not want to release a feature that will overheat the camera and shorten it's life..... inconceivable!

and now it is rumored that this camera will have a Digic8 and 4K.... looks like the problem is solved and from this point on, I would bet 4K is a standard feature....

I wonder if it supports UHS-2?


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## MayaTlab (Feb 20, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Digic 7 has the hardware to do 4K encoding (it is basically the same as the Digic DV5), but presumably it gets too hot with a cooling solution. Cameras with the DV5 have fans in them, so it is not an issue for those.
> ...



Personally I think that it's more a question of sensor readout speed than of processor. So far Canon hasn't shown that they can produce sensors for stills cameras with a sufficiently fast readout that they can sample the whole sensor without too much rolling shutter. 

Anyway, if it's a question of processing, it reflects poorly on Canon too. Panasonic has been doing quality 4K for years in their bodies, regardless of size, without overheating. 

Both don't explain why they didn't implement better 1080p in the 6D mark II . 

Let's hope this M50 signals the end of all that !


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## Sharlin (Feb 20, 2018)

The C-RAW is interesting. Might be great for shooting at high ISOs where half of the full 14 bits of DR is noise anyway. Or in controlled lighting conditions such as in a studio. That is, at least if there's no lossy spatial compression of some sort. Given that in-camera RAW processing is there this doesn't seem to be just TIFF in CR2 clothes like the medium and small RAW formats.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 20, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> Both don't explain why they didn't implement better 1080p in the 6D mark II .
> 
> Let's hope this M50 signals the end of all that !



just because Panasonic has had it doesn't mean that canon hasn't had to play catch up. It's more to do with encoders than it is processing power,etc.

It appears that DIGIC 8 is finally a 4K encoder based DIGIC.

needing DIGIC 8 for economical 4K is most certainly a reason the 6D Mark II didn't get it.

why they gimped 1080? who knows.

in before now everyone starts to complain that it ONLY shoots at 30p 4K and that their professional works requires a $1000 camera body that shoots at LEAST 60p.
:


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## stevelee (Feb 20, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> needing DIGIC 8 for economical 4K is most certainly a reason the 6D Mark II didn't get it.
> 
> why they gimped 1080? who knows.



What problems have you encountered with the 1080p video on the 6D2?


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## rrcphoto (Feb 20, 2018)

stevelee said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > needing DIGIC 8 for economical 4K is most certainly a reason the 6D Mark II didn't get it.
> ...



they removed ALL-I and reduced the bitrate from the 6D.


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## Don Haines (Feb 20, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> stevelee said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



couldn't the reduced bit-rate be a result of a better compression algorithm?


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## stevelee (Feb 20, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> they removed ALL-I and reduced the bitrate from the 6D.



To see what you are talking about, I tried Googling ALL-I, and got mainly Mariah Carey references and a couple for Adele.

Bitrate I sort of understand from audio.

I haven't used a 6D, but the little video I've shot with the 6D2 looks pretty good full screen on my 5K iMac, so I don't know what to look for that I'm missing.


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## Sharlin (Feb 20, 2018)

stevelee said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > they removed ALL-I and reduced the bitrate from the 6D.
> ...



ALL-I means no interframe compression. That is, instead of only storing every nth frame in full (called keyframes) and of the intervening frames only differences compared to the last keyframe, ALL-I considers every frame a keyframe. It naturally leads to bigger file sizes but is better suited to editing. It doesn't affect image quality much if you're only viewing your videos.


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## stevelee (Feb 20, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> ALL-I means no interframe compression. That is, instead of only storing every nth frame in full (called keyframes) and of the intervening frames only differences compared to the last keyframe, ALL-I considers every frame a keyframe. It naturally leads to bigger file sizes but is better suited to editing. It doesn't affect image quality much if you're only viewing your videos.



Thanks. Since I posted that, I added "format" to my search and no longer got links to Mariah Carey videos. (But I did decide that all I want for Christmas is a 24mm TS lens. That could change, though.)

Anyhow I found several discussions and a video, including a discussion here from 2013.

It would seem that the bitrate could be smaller and still have as good or better quality IPB, so that part is no surprise. One link I found was recommending 100 Mbs IPB over 200 Mbs ALL-I in a Panasonic camera.

FCP X has no problem keeping up with the IPB from the 6D2 on my 5K iMac, so editing is not a problem. FCP will temporarily eat up 200 GB on my SSD with work files in the process, so a spinning drive might be a bottleneck. I did edit a 4K time lapse from the camera, and it didn't seem to present any speed problem. The computer is fast enough that Compressor can produce three sizes of output in about the same time as the video duration.


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## bhf3737 (Feb 20, 2018)

Tugela said:


> ...
> Everyone here thinks that Canon are conservative and are giving the consumers what they really want. But that is not true. They are giving the consumers what they are CAPABLE of giving, and spinning a fantasy that it is what the consumers want. Two different things.
> 
> The rapidly increasing success of the competition which does implement 4K should have given a hint, but there is a whole lot of blinker wearing going on among the fanbois.


Canon has shown that they are CAPABLE of doing things right and at a price point that sells well.
As for 4K, even their XC-15, a 2.5K priced camera has better codec and does better than competition in the 8-10K price range. Their C200, priced around 8K, can capture RAW video and no other competitor in this class can do. 
The real fantasy is that all this technology should be put in a tiny consumer M50 camera which is supposed to cost around 1K.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 20, 2018)

Tugela said:


> ...spinning a fantasy...
> 
> The rapidly increasing success of the competition which does implement 4K should have given a hint, but there is a whole lot of blinker wearing going on among the fanbois.



Canon has _*gained*_ market share over the past few years. The 'rapidly increasing success of the competition which does implement 4K' is a fantasy that you're spinning. Try taking off your blindfold and looking at reality, at least once in a while.


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## bhf3737 (Feb 20, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I wonder if it supports UHS-2?



It may support UHS-II (and I hope that it will) but it may not be necessary for data rates that is needed for video recording. A Sandisk UHS-I, V30 class card would be enough for 4K video in the range of 100-150 Mbps.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 20, 2018)

Tugela said:


> The rapidly increasing success of the competition which does implement 4K should have given a hint, but there is a whole lot of blinker wearing going on among the fanbois.



got anything real world to back this up?


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## Tugela (Feb 20, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > [lApparently the camera has a Digic 8 processor in it...
> ...



The thermal envelope of the Digic 7 did not allow it, but the processor is basically the same as the Digic DV5, which does have a hardware 4K encoder inside it. If the DV5 can do 4K in hardware, so can the 7. The DV5 requires a fan to do it however, which means that the 7 would also need one. Fans are not part of stills cameras, hence no 4K.

This has been explained to you a great many times. I am surprised that you still fail to understand it. Well....maybe not that surprised after all this time. I have come to expect it from you.

If the Digic 8 can handle hardware 4K or not depends on it's thermal envelope. It is the sibling of the DV6, which means that the hardware logic is essentially the same. The camcorders that use the DV6 have vents, but they also do 4K in 60p, which requires 2x the processing and obviously generates a lot more heat per unit time as a result. So, those camcorders may use fans to achieve that spec, but may not need them for 30p. If that is the case then hardware 4K30p should be possible in at least ILC type bodies. Jury will still be out on smaller bodies depending on passive cooling until we see some examples because of uncertainty of how the thermal envelope will fit those cameras, but I would guess that they will be able to.

I have been pointing out that the Digic 8 would likely have these capabilities for quite some time now, since the first DV6 based video cameras were announced (the C200). Based on the hardware codecs these cameras were using it appeared that the logic had been developed for consumer cameras, not professional ones, which was a pointer that Canon had finally got the thermal envelope under control. They achieved this by scaling back on the specs of the codec (which is why the hardware codecs in the C200 look so basic). The DV5 (and by extension, the Digic 7) had professional grade hardware encoders for 4K, but at the expense of excess heat generation which made them unsuitable for use in consumer cameras for that purpose. It would appear that Canon addressed this by nerfing the video capabilities of the DV5 to the point where heat was manageable by passive cooling and calling the new processor the DV6/Digic 8. Not an issue for the C200 since that is primarily a RAW camera with some basic hardware encoding options.

The only question really was when the processor would start appearing in still camera models since there is a development period for camera. That development period typically is shorter for consumer models, which is why we usually see the latest processors appear in them first before the flagship models (which have much longer development periods).


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## Tugela (Feb 20, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



The Digic DV6/Digic 8 processors use a more basic encoder than the DV5 used in the XC-15, so the 4K video specs of the new camera are likely less than the XC-15.

The DV6 encoder is consumer grade, the DV5 is professional grade when it comes to video encoding.


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## Tugela (Feb 20, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > ...spinning a fantasy...
> ...



Keep telling yourself that.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 20, 2018)

Tugela said:


> bhf3737 said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



the XC15 supported 300mb/sec h.264 encoding. Odds are the M50 will have a more consumer 100mb/sec compression.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 20, 2018)

Tugela said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



I love it when people are so categorical about such technical details yet have no references to support their assumptions.

DIGIC 5+ and DIGIC 6+ are both capable of 4K capture in fan-less vent-less stills bodies.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 20, 2018)

Tugela said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



Oh, I understood. I was just wondering if you would ever actually admit that you were wrong when you said:



Tugela said:


> If a Canon camera has a Digic 7 processor in it, it will shoot 4K 30p video, provided that a modern storage interface has been included. Higher frame rates in 4K and higher resolutions, however, will not happen without extra hardware in the design.



No mention of thermal envelopes there, 'eh? But after the G7XII came out with Digic 7 and without 4K, you needed an excuse, instead of just admitting you were wrong. But I'm not surprised you can't admit your mistakes, I have come to expect it from you.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 20, 2018)

Tugela said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



Yes, I'll keep telling myself the truth. You go right on lying to yourself. I suppose living in a delusion can be comforting to those unable to cope with the real world.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 21, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> I love it when people are so categorical about such technical details yet have no references to support their assumptions.
> 
> DIGIC 5+ and DIGIC 6+ are both capable of 4K capture in fan-less vent-less stills bodies.



not with any actual real encoding. MPJEG isn't really encoded into a h.264 or h.265 compression. it's simply multiple jpeg images used to form a video, which isn't very processor intensive.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 21, 2018)

Tugela said:


> Keep telling yourself that.



care to show some factoids up?


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