# Canon EOS R5 records 4 hours of 4KHQ 30p to an external recorder, with a couple of simple tweaks



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 6, 2020)

> Wayne from No Life Digital has posted a video to his YouTube channel showing how he got the Canon EOS R5 to record 4 hours of 4KHQ 30p video to an Atomos Ninja V before the camera overheated.
> Simply by removing the memory cards from the camera while recording externally lead to a big boost in recording time. This seems like a pretty surprising outcome for something so simple. Is there some kind of software limitation in the camera?
> A dummy battery was also used in this test.
> *Testing methodology:*
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Deleted member 381342 (Aug 6, 2020)

This seems to make sense. CF Express readers get exceedingly hot and need at least good passive cooling. Not sure why the battery is a thing.


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## tomislavmoze (Aug 6, 2020)

This is actually great news, this means I can use my R5 with my atomos for a more serious work.
Although the skipped line 4k is good enough for a lot of work, this is even better. So basically that means all 4k modes except 120p are basically available all the time.
To bad the R6 did not score that great times with the external recorder.
Since R5 is basically the best all-around photo camera today and with this setup I would say it is maybe even the best hybrid camera today it will be a bit large set up for photo/video jobs if you do both at the same time. But If I get two I'm covered.
And if they unlock 120 fps to external recording this is the perfect camera for my needs 
Thank you Wayne for this info.


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## Respinder (Aug 6, 2020)

Here is a second video from Vistek where they did the same thing (he didn’t run a torture test but ran it for 2 hours without breaking a sweat)

‪Canon R5 Redux: Deep Testing Overheating, Resolution, and Auto Focus.





This is huge news and hopefully we will see more workarounds like this!!


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## BeenThere (Aug 6, 2020)

It would seem there should be a way in software (new menu item) to disable any use of installed memory cards that could accomplish the same outcome without having to physically remove the cards?


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## quilatoo (Aug 6, 2020)

It potentially being a software problem rather than hardware is good news at least.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

One assumes something similar would work on the r6 and it’s the I/o that does it. If that is the case, quite interesting for a lot of users. Now all we need is Canon to confirm if the mini HDMI is 2.1 (and then work with Atomos to support 120fps).

That also indicates that the downsampling doesn’t push the heat up too much, but presumably the combination of h265 and I/o causes it.


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 6, 2020)

I guess without two cards there's just two ventilation holes which improves air circulation.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

quilatoo said:


> It potentially being a software problem rather than hardware is good news at least.


I think it might be a little more complex. HDMI is uncompressed data, so it’s sending the downsampled signal out through HDMI and no internal writing to storage - presumably all memory based.

Internal writing is compressed to lower the data rate to something cfexpress can cope with. That’s h265 and the I/o which is pushing it over the threshold.

Bottom line, it seems that this might help anyone professional for some modes, but since atomos doesn’t support the 8k modes or 120fps, then not a solution there, and if Canon doesn’t have an hdmi 2.1 then adding that into the body won’t be a quick fix.

Seems if they can lower the h265 overhead and need less I/o we might get some internal recording possible in the higher modes, but how much quality that will impact it is not clear until Canon responds. Plus with a bit of post editing (sharpening) maybe it won’t be noticeable.

There was talk about a new firmware supporting different modes is coming, so maybe this will ease things.

Certainly seems there isn’t one “culprit” to the overheating, rather it is the combination of components based on what you are doing which is causing the system to finally go over the threshold. Maybe Canon can also tweak that threshold but I think they still need to figure out how they can vent the hot air out, maintain the weather sealing (when not venting) and then the recovery time would also be solved.... if it was repeatable venting of the heat in less than 20 mins that also might work for some.

Good news no matter, that others are finding some solutions.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I guess without two cards there's just two ventilation holes which improves air circulation.


Yep, if that helps cool it down quicker, leave the door open and no cards, then that might help reduce the impact...


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## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2020)

Does the R6 show this behavior as well (for its limited time modes)?

If so, this is not a CF express problem, and it might point towards:

Perhaps limits are all battery related and we don't know why yet. That should immediately be crossed off the list if running on external power + card in place shows temp warnings (which I presume we would).


Canon is super conservative with it's firmware limits... to I don't know, limit risk of bricking something? And then somehow they failed to implement limits for this specific use case of no card + external recorder?


Canon didn't account for cards heating up in general with their mechanical design, found this issue late in the game and just slapped time limits on recording if a card is in there. (I really doubt this.) 


Canon was nerfing some aspect of record to protect another product line... Nah. Seems far fetched for such a mottled spread of time limits.
What else would explain this? Just riffing here.

- A


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## john1970 (Aug 6, 2020)

A very naive question because I am new to video. If I need to use an external recorder for 4K30p HQ with my R5 which external recorder do you recommend purchasing? The Atoms Ninja V appears to be quite common. Please advise. Thank you.


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## Trinitytrue (Aug 6, 2020)

Canon cripple hammer. Mostly to protect their cine line


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## NiktoCan (Aug 6, 2020)

john1970 said:


> A very naive question because I am new to video. If I need to use an external recorder for 4K30p HQ with my R5 which external recorder do you recommend purchasing? The Atoms Ninja V appears to be quite common. Please advise. Thank you.


Yes, I have the Atomos Ninja V and the R5 - a great combination. Atomos continues to update the Ninja V as the camera market changes. I've had my Ninja V for almost two years and couldn't be any happier with my purchase.


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## nostrovia (Aug 6, 2020)

I should invent a card slot heat sink.


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## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2020)

Trinitytrue said:


> Canon cripple hammer. Mostly to protect their cine line




32 minutes here, 47 minutes there, etc. seems like a hyper real data-informed set of limits. Wouldn't a nerf just lock you out right at 15 or 30 minutes on the dot?

The two hours of cooldown seems less of a nerf than a very conservative factor of safety assumption by Canon. That also might imply time limits and not active temp monitoring might be at play, but that seems nuts technically. If a gaming PC far cheaper than an R5 can poll its CPU temp, Canon would be doing the same with it's processor, right?

- A


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## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2020)

nostrovia said:


> I should invent a card slot heat sink.




But do we know the cards are actually getting hot? Hotter than the body adjacent to the Digic?

- A


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## marathonman (Aug 6, 2020)

john1970 said:


> A very naive question because I am new to video. If I need to use an external recorder for 4K30p HQ with my R5 which external recorder do you recommend purchasing? The Atoms Ninja V appears to be quite common. Please advise. Thank you.


Consider also the price of CFExpress cards ($512GB = $600) vs a Ninja and 1TB SSD is not that much more.... and for that price you get better monitoring, professional tools for correctly exposing / managing color and better codecs for editing. It doesn't really add much more bulk but increases your flexibility massively. And you can always remove it and shoot internal if you want.


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## Colorado (Aug 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> But do we know the cards are actually getting hot? Hotter than the body adjacent to the Digic?


Some data:

https://alikgriffin.com/canon-r5-overheating-with-cfexpress-card-are-the-cards-to-blame/ 

(Note: I don't know how accurate this is. I just saw the link on Fred Miranda forums.)


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> But do we know the cards are actually getting hot? Hotter than the body adjacent to the Digic?
> 
> - A


I’ve found that with some flash drives inserted into usb 3 they heat up - even if you’re not actively using them. So maybe that principle is the same here.

Plus as mentioned, maybe the hot air can come out through the card slots.

Finally, no h265 encoding over HDMI and that is significant also.

I think it’s a combination of factors, and people are finding ways to tweak the thermal envelope if you will.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

marathonman said:


> Consider also the price of CFExpress cards ($512GB = $600) vs a Ninja and 1TB SSD is not that much more.... and for that price you get better monitoring, professional tools for correctly exposing / managing color and better codecs for editing. It doesn't really add much more bulk but increases your flexibility massively. And you can always remove it and shoot internal if you want.


Agreed. But external don’t support 8k nor 120fps except one Sony model, and u less r5 has HDMI 2.1 then it is limited to 4:2:0


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Here is a second video from Vistek where they did the same thing (he didn’t run a torture test but ran it for 2 hours without breaking a sweat)
> 
> ‪Canon R5 Redux: Deep Testing Overheating, Resolution, and Auto Focus.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing.

The clarity slider was a good tip.

That Canon loaned them a r5 hopefully they fed back to them also (support raw externally)...


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## cornieleous (Aug 6, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I guess without two cards there's just two ventilation holes which improves air circulation.



I'm not sure that's it since the doors are still closed and the body is weather sealed. 

That is not really ventilation, and simple holes or vents would be poor cooling anyway though better than nothing. Just having pockets of hot air that are not large is unlikely to be that much an effect compared to conducting heat to the body and then convecting it away into cooler outside air. Even if they were open to the air, enough ambient air has to exchange the heat which is why cameras like S1H have a fan instead of just vent.

I'm speculating heat sources are being substantially reduced. There is still card activity and battery activity unless external recording with external power. When those are removed heat generated is lower by substantial amount. Card writing quickly generates plenty of heat. Same with battery discharge. Dummy battery and AC adapter will always be cooler than battery as it is basically an empty chunk of plastic.

In my time-lapse tests, IBIS and EVF heated the camera up substantially in only 1 hour of 5 second interval stills. No overheat but very warm. Turning IBIS and EVF off, it ran just like my 5D4, nice and cool by the end of the test. I think the camera just has too much heat generating features in a small body and getting rid of any couple will improve the situation.


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## bbasiaga (Aug 6, 2020)

I saw this video while surfing Youtube this morning as well. It seems to make sense that the less the camera is doing itself, the slower it will heat up. 

I have separately heard that CFexpress cards heat up in normal use as well, but since I don't have anything that uses them I don't know. Funny if the card slot is the problem, more than the digic. 

I agree with the video that some this seems like it could be affected by firmware, which could help those who don't want to use an external recorder. 

-Brian


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## SecureGSM (Aug 6, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I guess without two cards there's just two ventilation holes which improves air circulation.


Not to the extent of Having total record time increased by that much. And ... it took only a few minutes after camera finally did shut down to be ready recording again. So no not just ventilation holes located inside a weather sealed body.


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## nolifedigital (Aug 6, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Here is a second video from Vistek where they did the same thing (he didn’t run a torture test but ran it for 2 hours without breaking a sweat)
> 
> ‪Canon R5 Redux: Deep Testing Overheating, Resolution, and Auto Focus.
> 
> ...



We've also confirmed he did this without cards in the camera.


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## nchoh (Aug 6, 2020)

Trinitytrue said:


> Canon cripple hammer. Mostly to protect their cine line



Unlikely.

We know that Canon has been implementing a slew of new features - 8K, IBIS, CFExpress card, 45M sensor, compression algorithm. All of the features increase the heat generated in the camera. All of the features have to be handled optimally to keep the generated to a minimum. With so many variables to handle, I am not surprised that Canon isn't able to keep the heat down. Case in point, Sony also had the same issue on their first effort.


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## alexvaltchev (Aug 6, 2020)

Hey, can anyone use Atomos Shogun 7 to test Canon R5 4K at 120 FPS ? Maybe 4h+ OR unlimited recording like the HQ mode?  That would be awesome!


REPLY


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## DBounce (Aug 6, 2020)

Battery really doesn’t get hot during overheating, however there is definitely a lot of heat generated by the card. I know, as I tested overheating on my own R5 and noticed that the grip gets hot. Granted I tested with an SD card not a CFExpress card. So I’m not sure it that makes a difference. One thing is certain, the card getting hot when idle is a definite software bug. It should not be generating heat on idle. And if this were addressed we could probably use this body with little fear of overheating outside of for long takes.


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## marathonman (Aug 6, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Agreed. But external don’t support 8k nor 120fps except one Sony model, and u less r5 has HDMI 2.1 then it is limited to 4:2:0


Believe R5 4K external is 4:2:2 at 10 bit. If you want to do 8K or 120FPS has to be done in camera. I don't believe the Ninja supports 8K anyhow but I could be wrong.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

alexvaltchev said:


> Hey, can anyone use Atomos Shogun 7 to test Canon R5 4K at 120 FPS ? Maybe 4h+ OR unlimited recording like the HQ mode?  That would be awesome!
> 
> 
> REPLY



Only 1 Sony body is supported at 120fps, and if Canon only has HDMI 2 to 2.0b then it can only do 4:2:0 whereas Canon does 4:2:2 which I believe needs 2.1


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

marathonman said:


> Believe R5 4K external is 4:2:2 at 10 bit. If you want to do 8K or 120FPS has to be done in camera. I don't believe the Ninja supports 8K anyhow but I could be wrong.


Not yet, but if it can do HDMI 2.1 then no reason why not, or it can do 8k30 4:2:0 with HDMI 2.0


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## Tremotino (Aug 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Does the R6 show this behavior as well (for its limited time modes)?
> 
> If so, this is not a CF express problem, and it might point towards:
> 
> ...



Good points! 

I thing it won't be point 1 since batteries do get some head but in normal cases do not overhead, they are nowadays quite efficient with high currents. 

I thing it could be point 3, as I start to believe the underestimated the head generate from card and card slot during writing since there where only preproduction? cards available at the time they developt the camera. And now it's simply to late. Next version of the R5 camera will have heat sinks and thermal conductive paste for passive cooling at the right place. 
The problem seams to be too big for a quick hack but easy to solve for the next generation. The firmware update may double the record time but that's it.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Battery really doesn’t get hot during overheating, however there is definitely a lot of heat generated by the card. I know, as I tested overheating on my own R5 and noticed that the grip gets hot. Granted I tested with an SD card not a CFExpress card. So I’m not sure it that makes a difference. One thing is certain, the card getting hot when idle is a definite software bug. It should not be generating heat on idle. And if this were addressed we could probably use this body with little fear of overheating outside of for long takes.


Yes but not necessarily with the r5. 

I have usb flash drives which heat up on a PC - maybe the issue isn’t with the R5. Hopefully it is and it can be changed, but as one of the other threads mentioned, even a quick firmware fix can take 2 months to appear....


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I'm not sure that's it since the doors are still closed and the body is weather sealed.
> 
> That is not really ventilation, and simple holes or vents would be poor cooling anyway though better than nothing. Just having pockets of hot air that are not large is unlikely to be that much an effect compared to conducting heat to the body and then convecting it away into cooler outside air. Even if they were open to the air, enough ambient air has to exchange the heat which is why cameras like S1H have a fan instead of just vent.
> 
> ...


Re door closed - good point well made!

I said the same re multiple sources of heat, so yes, the system is a little more complicated else probably Canon would have solved the issue, lol...


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## alexvaltchev (Aug 6, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Only 1 Sony body is supported at 120fps, and if Canon only has HDMI 2 to 2.0b then it can only do 4:2:0 whereas Canon does 4:2:2 which I believe needs 2.1


So basically NO ?


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## magarity (Aug 6, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> This seems to make sense. CF Express readers get exceedingly hot and need at least good passive cooling. Not sure why the battery is a thing.


So just leave the card door open and clip heat sink fins on the end of the cards. Problem solved!


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## Bert63 (Aug 6, 2020)

Colorado said:


> Some data:
> 
> https://alikgriffin.com/canon-r5-overheating-with-cfexpress-card-are-the-cards-to-blame/
> 
> (Note: I don't know how accurate this is. I just saw the link on Fred Miranda forums.)



No clicky..

The link you have opened does not appear to have originated from this site!


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## Colorado (Aug 6, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> No clicky..
> 
> The link you have opened does not appear to have originated from this site!


Oh...I didn't know this forum prevented external links. You can copy-n-paste it into your browser or let me try to use the link feature:

Click here


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> No clicky..
> 
> The link you have opened does not appear to have originated from this site!


Just go to Alikgriffin.com and it’s on the front page of news...


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

magarity said:


> So just leave the card door open and clip heat sink fins on the end of the cards. Problem solved!


Needs a firmware fix - open the card door and camera switches off.


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## Pape (Aug 6, 2020)

I wonder if card slot is place where heat just naturally gathers ,from battery and from inside camera.
Now when card is out ,heat sensor is disactivated?


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## SecureGSM (Aug 6, 2020)

magarity said:


> So just leave the card door open and clip heat sink fins on the end of the cards. Problem solved!


Um, camera won’t power up with the card door open.. sorry


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## bhf3737 (Aug 6, 2020)

There are too many thread on this topic and I posted a similar message in the other thread.
CFexpress cards get hot. They need and have heatsink.That is why they have an on-die thermal sensor and SMART reading info from the card is available to the device firmware, similar to info from your computer hard drive. I think camera's firmware implements different levels of throttling to manage the heat generated for the device protection purpose.
It seems that when the CFExpress card is not in the camera, there is no sensor info from the card and the throttling function is off or rolls back to a default value (4 hours?) so the camera can record longer.
The throttling can be done in a proactive way or as a preset table. Based on the data we see regarding the remaining time counter, R5's firmware seems to have a preset table for thermal control, and if true, this is a rather crude implementation. This is the first second (first mirrorless) Canon's weather sealed body with CFexpress so less experience in developing fail-free heat management in the firmware may be the cause. The CFexpress cards in Cinema line are actively cooled and there is no problem there. The good news is that it is all manageable by firmware and a proactive heat management mechanism is pretty doable. My guess is that it will be addressed in the next firmware for R5.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Aug 6, 2020)

magarity said:


> So just leave the card door open and clip heat sink fins on the end of the cards. Problem solved!



Or as these folks suggest, just take the card out. These record limits only affect the smallest minority of people that'll use a stills camera as a video camera, let alone a main video camera.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

alexvaltchev said:


> So basically NO ?


I couldn’t find any specs yet on what version of HDMI the Canons have - not in tech spec, manual, anywhere so far.

Iirc, 10bit and 4:2:2 needs 2.1. 8bit and 4:2:0 can be done in 2.0-2.0b. Not sure what 8bit 4:2:0 in 8k looks like in comparison to 10bit 4:2:2


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## jayphotoworks (Aug 6, 2020)

marathonman said:


> Consider also the price of CFExpress cards ($512GB = $600) vs a Ninja and 1TB SSD is not that much more.... and for that price you get better monitoring, professional tools for correctly exposing / managing color and better codecs for editing. It doesn't really add much more bulk but increases your flexibility massively. And you can always remove it and shoot internal if you want.



While I agree it increases flexibility, I don't agree that it doesn't add much more bulk. You are adding 1.3lbs to the top of the camera if you run a 750 2hr battery or 1.65lbs if you run a 3hr 970 battery. If you add a cage, arm and mount the monitor to the side, that's another 1 lb. In actuality, I always run my Ninja V and camera in a cage just so I can lock my HDMI cables and lock the SSD in so it doesn't pop out. All of those things can dump your shot if it happens while on the move. I've had HDMI cables catch on sliders before, etc.

Don't forget you also need to bring extra batteries just for the monitor and If you are shooting talking heads and need the runtime, you can't just take off the monitor anymore because you will run back into overheating. Lastly, if you then need to take the camera off sticks and move it to a gimbal, you can't just leave the monitor on top or on the side. You have to take off the monitor, rig it on the gimbal below and re-route your cables or you will have no way to balance it. The last issue can be handled with a separate body, but you also need a second monitor as well unless you can keep the thermal limitations in check or move the monitor back and forth.

I think certain styles of shooting can work with external recording, but it is a narrow window without accepting other compromises.


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## genriquez (Aug 6, 2020)

If it's the CF cards then maybe instead of putting a fan on the back of the camera someone should make a replacement door with a fan/heat sink attached to it.


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## Bdbtoys (Aug 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> If so, this is not a CF express problem, and it might point towards:
> 
> Canon is super conservative with it's firmware limits... to I don't know, limit risk of bricking something? And then somehow they failed to implement limits for this specific use case of no card + external recorder?



Just quoting a piece of the original post... I don't believe this bullet statement is the case because it did overheat eventually (so firmware did catch the temp change somewhere).


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## SecureGSM (Aug 6, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> While I agree it increases flexibility, I don't agree that it doesn't add much more bulk. You are adding 1.3lbs to the top of the camera if you run a 750 2hr battery or 1.65lbs if you run a 3hr 970 battery. If you add a cage, arm and mount the monitor to the side, that's another 1 lb. In actuality, I always run my Ninja V and camera in a cage just so I can lock my HDMI cables and lock the SSD in so it doesn't pop out. All of those things can dump your shot if it happens while on the move. I've had HDMI cables catch on sliders before, etc.
> 
> Don't forget you also need to bring extra batteries just for the monitor and If you are shooting talking heads and need the runtime, you can't just take off the monitor anymore because you will run back into overheating. Lastly, if you then need to take the camera off sticks and move it to a gimbal, you can't just leave the monitor on top or on the side. You have to take off the monitor, rig it on the gimbal below and re-route your cables or you will have no way to balance it. The last issue can be handled with a separate body, but you also need a second monitor as well unless you can keep the thermal limitations in check or move the monitor back and forth.
> 
> I think certain styles of shooting can work with external recording, but it is a narrow window without accepting other compromises.


Imagine having an external recorder Inbuilt in the battery grip... problem solved. all that you mentioned.


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## armd (Aug 6, 2020)

It's kind of an interesting exercise and for those who shoot video, it is a useful solution. For the rest of us mortals who mainly shoot stills an occasional short video takes, it's overkill. The only reason that I appreciate this contrived controversy is that hopefully it scares off enough potential buyers so I can eventually land an R5 body.


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## DBounce (Aug 6, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> No clicky..
> 
> The link you have opened does not appear to have originated from this site!


The camera cannot output video with the door open. The switch would need to be disabled.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

genriquez said:


> If it's the CF cards then maybe instead of putting a fan on the back of the camera someone should make a replacement door with a fan/heat sink attached to it.


Maybe for indoors that could help, but you’d possibly lose weather sealing ie not for outdoors?


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> While I agree it increases flexibility, I don't agree that it doesn't add much more bulk. You are adding 1.3lbs to the top of the camera if you run a 750 2hr battery or 1.65lbs if you run a 3hr 970 battery. If you add a cage, arm and mount the monitor to the side, that's another 1 lb. In actuality, I always run my Ninja V and camera in a cage just so I can lock my HDMI cables and lock the SSD in so it doesn't pop out. All of those things can dump your shot if it happens while on the move. I've had HDMI cables catch on sliders before, etc.
> 
> Don't forget you also need to bring extra batteries just for the monitor and If you are shooting talking heads and need the runtime, you can't just take off the monitor anymore because you will run back into overheating. Lastly, if you then need to take the camera off sticks and move it to a gimbal, you can't just leave the monitor on top or on the side. You have to take off the monitor, rig it on the gimbal below and re-route your cables or you will have no way to balance it. The last issue can be handled with a separate body, but you also need a second monitor as well unless you can keep the thermal limitations in check or move the monitor back and forth.
> 
> I think certain styles of shooting can work with external recording, but it is a narrow window without accepting other compromises.


Thanks for the practical info from someone who uses it.

When you use the atomos, or any HDMI out on a Canon, does it switch off the evf and back display, ie you have to use the atomos to monitor what you’re recording?


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## SecureGSM (Aug 6, 2020)

DBounce said:


> The camera cannot output video with the door open. The switch would need to be disabled.


just for a quick experiment, I would sticky tape the pin over to see if recording To card internally with the battery compartment door open would help addressing overheating issue. I don’t have access to R5 so cannot verify.


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## Whowe (Aug 6, 2020)

Tremotino said:


> Good points!
> 
> I thing it won't be point 1 since batteries do get some head but in normal cases do not overhead, they are nowadays quite efficient with high currents.
> 
> ...


But doubling the record time would be huge.


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## genriquez (Aug 6, 2020)

Someone livestreamed in 4kHQ until his batteries drained. Almost 2 hours.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

armd said:


> It's kind of an interesting exercise and for those who shoot video, it is a useful solution. For the rest of us mortals who mainly shoot stills an occasional short video takes, it's overkill. The only reason that I appreciate this contrived controversy is that hopefully it scares off enough potential buyers so I can eventually land an R5 body.


Err don’t you want to encourage sales for Canon - helps them develop new products. 

Production capacity is likely impacted by Covid as the news item on canonnews said. I think we’ll continue to get lower volumes until Canon can get everything back to something close to normal or the new normal....

Given Canon recent results, they want to build as many of these as the demand needs (pre orders must give them a good idea). Whether they can reduce capacity on other lines to boost r5/r6 I don’t know. But finding ways to solve the video issues will sell more and thus help fund future bodies...


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

Whowe said:


> But doubling the record time would be huge.


And if they could halve the cool down time, that would make it even better!


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## AlP (Aug 6, 2020)

bhf3737 said:


> There are too many thread on this topic and I posted a similar message in the other thread.
> CFexpress cards get hot. They need and have heatsink.That is why they have an on-die thermal sensor and SMART reading info from the card is available to the device firmware, similar to info from your computer hard drive. I think camera's firmware implements different levels of throttling to manage the heat generated for the device protection purpose.
> It seems that when the CFExpress card is not in the camera, there is no sensor info from the card and the throttling function is off or rolls back to a default value (4 hours?) so the camera can record longer.
> The throttling can be done in a proactive way or as a preset table. Based on the data we see regarding the remaining time counter, R5's firmware seems to have a preset table for thermal control, and if true, this is a rather crude implementation. This is the first Canon's weather sealed body with CFexpress so less experience in developing fail-free heat management in the firmware may be the cause. The CFexpress cards in Cinema line are actively cooled and there is no problem there. The good news is that it is all manageable by firmware and a proactive heat management mechanism is pretty doable. My guess is that it will be addressed in the next firmware for R5.



If CFexpress cards get very hot (which I am not questioning), that heat will nicely couple to the processor, which is very close to the card slot and happens to be surrounded by memory ICs, which will also heat up:


(from EOSHD, and I am assuming that the image is an actual R5 main PCB image).
Since there are various buttons and a dial on top of the card cage attached to the back panel of the camera, the card slot is probably not thermally connected to it as that would be mechanically difficult to do. So no way to get the heat away except through the PCB.


----------



## genriquez (Aug 6, 2020)

I did a quick search:

The prograde CFexpress at b&h says operating temp:

14 to 158°F/ -10 to 70°C

And for the sandisk extreme uhs-ii it says the operating temp:

-13 to 185°F/ -25 to 85°C

Maybe this is why the R6 can record for longer internally?


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## sanj (Aug 6, 2020)

Ok fine. Seems like a workaround. I was excited about internal flawless, reasonable duration 8k recording. I do not like the trouble of external monitors.


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## Dragon (Aug 6, 2020)

alexvaltchev said:


> Hey, can anyone use Atomos Shogun 7 to test Canon R5 4K at 120 FPS ? Maybe 4h+ OR unlimited recording like the HQ mode?  That would be awesome!
> 
> 
> REPLY


On page 310 of the R5 manual, it says 8k movies sent to the HDMI port will be 4k. I think that means the HDMI port will not support 8K and thus also not 4k/120.


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## Pape (Aug 6, 2020)

anyone tried just change another CFexpress card when its hot ?


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## Stu_bert (Aug 6, 2020)

Dragon said:


> On page 310 of the R5 manual, it says 8k movies sent to the HDMI port will be 4k. I think that means the HDMI port will not support 8K and thus also not 4k/120.


Current 2.0 to 2.0b does support 4k120 in 8bit 4:2:0 and the same for 8k. 2.1 supports 10bit.

Canon may have chosen not to allow 8k over HDMI either to restrict or as they knew nothing supported it. Or cause they didn’t want to do 4:2:0.


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 6, 2020)

Colorado said:


> Oh...I didn't know this forum prevented external links. You can copy-n-paste it into your browser or let me try to use the link feature:
> 
> Click here



Thanks C - I went over and hunted it down - it was for info only.


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## tomislavmoze (Aug 6, 2020)

Pape said:


> anyone tried just change another CFexpress card when its hot ?


I had the sam thought since the cards are so expensive most of the people that tested the camera had just one. 
that would be a sweet workaround if it worked


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## Respinder (Aug 6, 2020)

I love how this is a big story - pretty big breakthrough if you ask me - and yet still no article from Andrew Reid from EOSHD properly covering it as of 1:23pm today. Just shows me how skewed his reporting his to just reporting on negatives and trashing Canon.


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## genriquez (Aug 6, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> I had the sam thought since the cards are so expensive most of the people that tested the camera had just one.
> that would be a sweet workaround if it worked



My guess is that it might help but you still need the internals of the camera to be completely cool for the new card for maximum recording time.


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## Dragon (Aug 6, 2020)

So now more tests to run. Use the battery grip with 2 batteries installed and record 4k HQ to the SD card with the CFExpress card removed and see what that does. The the Express card could well be a major source of heat because express lane drivers are very hungry.


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## tomislavmoze (Aug 6, 2020)

genriquez said:


> My guess is that it might help but you still need the internals of the camera to be completely cool for the new card for maximum recording time.


So I just have to carry my cards in portable fridge, joke to the side. I see another test thjat can be done. Film without cfexpress card in skipped line 4k and then when needed put the cfxpress for higher frame-rates, after doing them take it out and continue to film in ordinary 4k.


----------



## Respinder (Aug 6, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> While I agree it increases flexibility, I don't agree that it doesn't add much more bulk. You are adding 1.3lbs to the top of the camera if you run a 750 2hr battery or 1.65lbs if you run a 3hr 970 battery. If you add a cage, arm and mount the monitor to the side, that's another 1 lb. In actuality, I always run my Ninja V and camera in a cage just so I can lock my HDMI cables and lock the SSD in so it doesn't pop out. All of those things can dump your shot if it happens while on the move. I've had HDMI cables catch on sliders before, etc.
> 
> Don't forget you also need to bring extra batteries just for the monitor and If you are shooting talking heads and need the runtime, you can't just take off the monitor anymore because you will run back into overheating. Lastly, if you then need to take the camera off sticks and move it to a gimbal, you can't just leave the monitor on top or on the side. You have to take off the monitor, rig it on the gimbal below and re-route your cables or you will have no way to balance it. The last issue can be handled with a separate body, but you also need a second monitor as well unless you can keep the thermal limitations in check or move the monitor back and forth.
> 
> I think certain styles of shooting can work with external recording, but it is a narrow window without accepting other compromises.


I agree with this.
Not just about the bulk but about whether you can ultimately take a external recorder into a venue.
Many venues (eg sports, concerts, amusement parks) have subjective restrictions on what you are allowed to bring in.
For instance your may be allowed to bring in a relatively compact ILC with a compact lens, but if you bring in an ILC with a 70-200 lens they may prevent you from entry. I highly doubt these sorts of places want you to bring in caged equipment with external recorders - ie if you look like a pro entering these events they will try to shut you down, whereas if you are just attending the event with a camera they may let you in.

I’m not sure exactly how these external recorders work, but I guess a question I would have is whether I needed a cage for this or whether I would have to use the monitor. If I am entering a venue I would love to be able to leave a slim external recorder in my pocket and just have the camera out in full use - that would mean that the camera screen and viewfinder still have to work normally.
In general I am very excited about these turn of events that may result in additional firmware updates or other solutions to better manage the heat internally.


----------



## sulla (Aug 6, 2020)

He says in the review that the camera doesn't get hot on the outside, only moderately warm. This makes me wonder what could be the reason for this, and I cant really make sense of this. If certain components inside the camera indeed overheat to a considerable temperature, say 80°C, and the camera stays moderately warm outside, this would mean those components in the inside must be thermally really really well isolated. It would fit to the observation of a cool-down time of 2h. But who would thermally isolate components inside?

But then, when those components are able to cool down within 2h, this gives us a clue as to the thermal conductivity of those components: if heat goes down by conduction to room temperature within 2h I would assume an exponential heat half-life time of around 1h. Assuming this thermal conductivity, then I can't understand why the camera would suddenly overheat at 4 hours, I would assume the camera would have to approach thermal equilibrium within 2h and should be able to hold that state indefinitely. (equilibrium: Heat in = heat out. If heat gets out within 2h, then all the heat you put in within 2h also leaves the camera within 2h, so if you can go for more than 2h, that should be indefinite equilibrium)

It would be really interesting to see infrared-images of an overheated camera, to see, where the body dissipates heat to. It must go somewhere.

It all makes no real sense to me. I come to the conclusion, this must be somehow software-limited, not actually physically overheating components.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 6, 2020)

sanj said:


> Ok fine. Seems like a workaround. I was excited about internal flawless, reasonable duration 8k recording. I do not like the trouble of external monitors.


Then buy any number of other internal RAW 8k hybrids.....


----------



## Twinix (Aug 6, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Imagine having an external recorder Inbuilt in the battery grip... problem solved. all that you mentioned.


What about CFexpress to SDI service/repair? (SDI from the body to the recorder in the grip as you said).


----------



## Chromedbustop (Aug 6, 2020)

I think at best this solves one problem but creates another. Because while you now might be able to record longer video you've sacrificed the versatility of the camera. With the additional attachments it would be much more difficult to use it for photography. If you know you'll only need it for one or the other then it's fine, but switching back and forth between the two no longer becomes very practical. One of the big advantages of hybrid cameras is being able to quickly and easily switch between photo and video. Can't do that with a recorder attached (and all that comes with having one)

Still, it is a solution of sorts to the overheating problem.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 6, 2020)

Is there some kind of software limitation? Duh. How do you think there are warnings and the camera shuts down? Magic?


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## Twinix (Aug 6, 2020)

genriquez said:


> I did a quick search:
> 
> The prograde CFexpress at b&h says operating temp:
> 
> ...



Thanks, and now we need overheating tests with different card models.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 6, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Here is a second video from Vistek where they did the same thing (he didn’t run a torture test but ran it for 2 hours without breaking a sweat)
> 
> ‪Canon R5 Redux: Deep Testing Overheating, Resolution, and Auto Focus.
> 
> ...


The thing that kind of shocked me from this video, first that 'clarity' adjustment in camera for video makes a massive difference and I wish more reviewers had pointed this out before declaring the 'normal' video modes DOA, gotta love those f-----ing influencers. But also I don't know about you guys but I guessed the 8k as the best quality on the blind tests. It would be interesting to run some tests in the video modes you personally are interested in with the clarity adjustment set to optimal against the better video modes. There really doesn't seem to be much in it and the adjustability of the files seems very solid.


----------



## Gazwas (Aug 6, 2020)

Would love to see if 4KHQ external is the same as 4KHQ internal to see if there is a drop in quality/bit rate over HDMI. If there is a drop over HDMI it might explain why it records for longer. Pretty sure the R5 disappointingly doesn’t have HDMI 2.1.


----------



## Whowe (Aug 6, 2020)

sulla said:


> He says in the review that the camera doesn't get hot on the outside, only moderately warm. This makes me wonder what could be the reason for this, and I cant really make sense of this. If certain components inside the camera indeed overheat to a considerable temperature, say 80°C, and the camera stays moderately warm outside, this would mean those components in the inside must be thermally really really well isolated. It would fit to the observation of a cool-down time of 2h. But who would thermally isolate components inside?
> 
> But then, when those components are able to cool down within 2h, this gives us a clue as to the thermal conductivity of those components: if heat goes down by conduction to room temperature within 2h I would assume an exponential heat half-life time of around 1h. Assuming this thermal conductivity, then I can't understand why the camera would suddenly overheat at 4 hours, I would assume the camera would have to approach thermal equilibrium within 2h and should be able to hold that state indefinitely. (equilibrium: Heat in = heat out. If heat gets out within 2h, then all the heat you put in within 2h also leaves the camera within 2h, so if you can go for more than 2h, that should be indefinite equilibrium)
> 
> ...


The math doesn't quite work that way. during cooling there is no additional heat source. However, during operation, you have a heat source and the temperature of that source is unknown, but could be quite high.


----------



## bhf3737 (Aug 6, 2020)

A little bit more on temperature management of CFexpress cards. 
As this article indicates: “In general, we find techniques like throttling, which may be employed to reduce SSD temperature, to be effective at reducing the failure rate of SSDs. We also find that SSD temperature is correlated with the power used to transmit data across the PCIe bus, which can potentially be used as a proxy for temperature in the absence of SSD temperature sensors.” 
In other words, at the end of the day, it may be the CFexpress card itself that employs some kinds of power throttling to reduce its temperature, and cause the 8K/4K read/write unsustainable. The difficulty is that different cards may have different heat tolerance and management policies. 
Perhaps someone can experiment with different CFexpress cards and report the results here.
For the R5 itself, it would have been difficult to have policies to manage overall temperature for all current and yet to appear CFexpress cards besides the other heat generating elements so a kind of collective throttling (i.e. setting a safe time limit that guarantee the card and the camera will not burn out) was perhaps the only option. Good news is that the R5 is not hot to touch (unlike some other cameras such as XT4, for example) therefore, PCB heat is reasonably managed.
My guess is that, as the newer CFexpress cards with heat sensor communicate their temperature to the camera, better heat management mechanisms and policies will become available via firmware updates.


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## skp (Aug 6, 2020)

Has anybody tried recording 4KHQ to the SD card and leaving the CF Express slot empty?


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## Drakester1791 (Aug 6, 2020)

Sounds like an sd card shaped peltier cooler needs inventing....Hmmm.


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## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2020)

Chromedbustop said:


> I think at best this solves one problem but creates another. Because while you now might be able to record longer video you've sacrificed the versatility of the camera. With the additional attachments it would be much more difficult to use it for photography. If you know you'll only need it for one or the other then it's fine, but switching back and forth between the two no longer becomes very practical. One of the big advantages of hybrid cameras is being able to quickly and easily switch between photo and video. Can't do that with a recorder attached (and all that comes with having one)
> 
> Still, it is a solution of sorts to the overheating problem.




I don't see this as a solution for any hybrid shooter or photographer who very rarely shoots video -- completely agree. They need to flip a switch and start shooting video.

If this pans out, this will only be a workaround for dedicated video folks. But: that's potentially a big deal, as that camp has had the biggest doubts about the useability of this rig for their needs.

- A


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 6, 2020)

I suspect the issue is the Cfexpress card has it's own table for safe operation and if the picture from EOSHD is accurate (I question everything posted on that dumpster fire of a website) the Ram and the Processor are very close to the Cfexperss card so heat is being transferred to the card.

The system likely has a heart beat monitor for the Cfexpress card that is active even when the card is not been written or read from. The heart beat polls the card parameters as well as confirms the card is live and ready to read or write.

So as the Camera operation heats up the CPU and the Ram the card(s) is also being heated until they reach the point were it flags the system that it is in thermal danger and the on screen heat warning it tripped. The Camera does not hit the next stage in the thermal protection cycle right away and keeps recording. The next stage is likely linked to the CPU and Ram temps. We saw this with the live stream Gerald Undone did, the system showed the thermal warning for a couple of hours but did not shut down. 

Removing the card might be removing the stage 1 thermal protection trigger. Stage 1 might be overly aggressive and therefore an easy firmware fix. I would also be interested to know if as R5 gets into more peoples hands does card brand change the internal results at all.


----------



## vangelismm (Aug 6, 2020)

Ok, I will do the dumb question.

Anyone tried with just a SD card?


----------



## genriquez (Aug 6, 2020)

vangelismm said:


> Ok, I will do the dumb question.
> 
> Anyone tried with just a SD card?



Some people have tried and got slightly longer times than CFexpress. Informal forum posts though


----------



## Dragon (Aug 6, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Would love to see if 4KHQ external is the same as 4KHQ internal to see if there is a drop in quality/bit rate over HDMI. If there is a drop over HDMI it might explain why it records for longer. Pretty sure the R5 disappointingly doesn’t have HDMI 2.1.


HDMI 2.1 almost certainly takes more power (cable equalizers use power) and power is already a problem. There are always technical trade-offs.


----------



## someguy (Aug 6, 2020)

genriquez said:


> Some people have tried and got slightly longer times than CFexpress. Informal forum posts though



I haven't tried an actual test yet but when I go to 4K HQ w/o a CFexpress card in (only SD) it still says 25:00 min as the limit (rather than 29:59). I will test a bit more though when I have time.


----------



## Vertex Imagery (Aug 6, 2020)

I wondered if this will lead to someone trying to 3D print dummy a cf-express card made out of TCPoly filament


----------



## quilatoo (Aug 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I don't see this as a solution for any hybrid shooter or photographer who very rarely shoots video -- completely agree. They need to flip a switch and start shooting video.
> 
> If this pans out, this will only be a workaround for dedicated video folks. But: that's potentially a big deal, as that camp has had the biggest doubts about the useability of this rig for their needs.
> 
> - A


Yeah this seems a very fair assessment.


----------



## marathonman (Aug 6, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> While I agree it increases flexibility, I don't agree that it doesn't add much more bulk. You are adding 1.3lbs to the top of the camera if you run a 750 2hr battery or 1.65lbs if you run a 3hr 970 battery. If you add a cage, arm and mount the monitor to the side, that's another 1 lb. In actuality, I always run my Ninja V and camera in a cage just so I can lock my HDMI cables and lock the SSD in so it doesn't pop out. All of those things can dump your shot if it happens while on the move. I've had HDMI cables catch on sliders before, etc.
> 
> Don't forget you also need to bring extra batteries just for the monitor and If you are shooting talking heads and need the runtime, you can't just take off the monitor anymore because you will run back into overheating. Lastly, if you then need to take the camera off sticks and move it to a gimbal, you can't just leave the monitor on top or on the side. You have to take off the monitor, rig it on the gimbal below and re-route your cables or you will have no way to balance it. The last issue can be handled with a separate body, but you also need a second monitor as well unless you can keep the thermal limitations in check or move the monitor back and forth.
> 
> I think certain styles of shooting can work with external recording, but it is a narrow window without accepting other compromises.


All incredibly valid points. Show me any decision in life that doesn't involve compromises!! Just shooting video on the R5 (and it's fantastic) involves a set of compromises and this whole overheating discussion is frankly absurd. I'm just saying that if it works for you, there are compelling reasons why a Ninja is not that bad an option because of cost and other benefits it gives. Cost of Ninja and SSD is not that much different from 2 x decent size CFExpress cards. In it's simplest configuration, you can run a Ninja on the hot shoe with a small tilty / flippy mount and a cable. It doesn't have to add that much extra bulk - but that configuration may not work for other people. It's simply about determining what will work for each individual.


----------



## marathonman (Aug 6, 2020)

Respinder said:


> I love how this is a big story - pretty big breakthrough if you ask me - and yet still no article from Andrew Reid from EOSHD properly covering it as of 1:23pm today. Just shows me how skewed his reporting his to just reporting on negatives and trashing Canon.


Thankfully I don't pay attention to that guy. So many other people out there with a positive outlook on life and with actual talent. Who needs that kind of negativity on a daily basis?


----------



## skp (Aug 6, 2020)

As a hybrid shooter I already own a Ninja and even before the overheating concerns came up I was planning to mostly use the Ninja for most shooting when I eventually get my R5 just because of the fact that h.265 is so hard to edit, Also the Ninja gets around the 29:59 limit for long takes when shooting events.

So from my perspective, this news is great. The only downside is that I won't have a redundant backup recording if I take the memory cards out. If I can keep the SD card in and record 4kHQ/24fps to both the SD card and Ninja then I'm all set. All I have to do is keep a CF Express in my bag for the rare occasional slow motion b-roll shot at 120fps. (I don't really ever see myself using 8K on a regular basis).


----------



## Juangrande (Aug 6, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> It would seem there should be a way in software (new menu item) to disable any use of installed memory cards that could accomplish the same outcome without having to physically remove the cards?


Then what’s the difference if they’re disabled anyways, why not just take them out. ? I don’t follow the logic for a need to leave them in but disable them. Am I’m not understanding something? I don’t shoot video so I’m not knowledgeable about the workflow.


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## sanj (Aug 6, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Then buy any number of other internal RAW 8k hybrids.....


Don't understand


----------



## BeenThere (Aug 6, 2020)

Juangrande said:


> Then what’s the difference if they’re disabled anyways, why not just take them out. ? I don’t follow the logic for a need to leave them in but disable them. Am I’m not understanding something? I don’t shoot video so I’m not knowledgeable about the workflow.


I would rather leave them in rather than having to find a place for them out of camera. Also more chances to damage cards by handling. YMMV


----------



## Gazwas (Aug 6, 2020)

Dragon said:


> HDMI 2.1 almost certainly takes more power (cable equalizers use power) and power is already a problem. There are always technical trade-offs.


So is 4KHQ external 10bit 4.2.2 or downsampled to 8bit 4.2.0?


----------



## sulla (Aug 6, 2020)

Whowe said:


> The math doesn't quite work that way. during cooling there is no additional heat source. However, during operation, you have a heat source and the temperature of that source is unknown, but could be quite high.


Actually, I believe physics works that way. If a thing (a component inside a camera body) can cool down nearly completely within 2h, then it must have a certain thermal conductivity towards a heatsink (environment). With constant heat input, there is just no way it overheats only after 4 hours. If heat buildup takes that long, cooldown will take even longer. So, if the camera overheats after 4 hours, it will not be completely cool after 4 hours either. Still, recording times are fully recovered after only 2h, apparently.


----------



## twoheadedboy (Aug 6, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> So I just have to carry my cards in portable fridge, joke to the side. I see another test thjat can be done. Film without cfexpress card in skipped line 4k and then when needed put the cfxpress for higher frame-rates, after doing them take it out and continue to film in ordinary 4k.



You don't need to do that. You can always film line-skipped, even when you have overheated from a different mode.


----------



## genriquez (Aug 6, 2020)

vangelismm said:


> Ok, I will do the dumb question.
> 
> Anyone tried with just a SD card?


DPreview updated their review and got a few more minutes with recording to just the SD card at room temperature. What a plot twist.


----------



## Respinder (Aug 6, 2020)

marathonman said:


> Thankfully I don't pay attention to that guy. So many other people out there with a positive outlook on life and with actual talent. Who needs that kind of negativity on a daily basis?


It gets better - now Mr Reid posts a story about 2 min of video footage versus the 4 hours reported on here. His website seems to have gone the tabloid route! Sensationalize everything! ;P


----------



## genriquez (Aug 6, 2020)

Respinder said:


> It gets better - now Mr Reid posts a story about 2 min of video footage versus the 4 hours reported on here. His website seems to have gone the tabloid route! Sensationalize everything! ;P



To be fair he did include a blurb about the 4 hours with external. But he wasn't enthusiastic about it and still wants a recall.


----------



## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2020)

vangelismm said:


> Ok, I will do the dumb question.
> 
> Anyone tried with just a SD card?




Umm, doesn't SD lock you out of all the better R5 recording modes?

- A


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Umm, doesn't SD lock you out of all the better R5 recording modes?
> 
> - A


just 8k alli, raw and 4k120 oh and I think 4k60 but have to check my camera


----------



## Bdbtoys (Aug 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Umm, doesn't SD lock you out of all the better R5 recording modes?
> 
> - A



From the manual... can't use SD on just these modes... 8K Raw, 8K ALL-I, 4K 120, 4K 60 ALL-I


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## dcm (Aug 6, 2020)

CFast cards in my 1DX2 are sometimes pretty warm when I remove them right after shooting. Not much of a surprise here given the amount of bandwidth being sent to them. What was surprising was how hot they would get when attached to my Mac via a SANdisk USB 2 reader. They continued to heat up after I was done using them and no data was being transferred. Hot enough to burn my fingers if I touched the metal part. I learned to eject them immediately when the transfer was done.

No surprise that CFExpress might have a similar issue. Both speed and the number of parallel channels to the chip will increase heat. I think you’ll find that the available recording times are somewhat related to how fast you are pumping data to the card which allows some modes to record longer than others. There may not be a 1-1 correspondence since the digic-x, battery, etc. are also contributing factors. It could be a driver/software issue or the controller on the card causing it to heat up even when not in use. I haven’t studied the protocol.

Most modern processors throttle down when they reach their maximum temperature. When my 6-core Processor in my Mac Mini hits 100C/212F under a heavy load from a machine learning algorithm, it begins to throttle the clock speed down to reduce the temperature to 100C even with external fans cooling the aluminum cover. I don’t even have to be using all 6 cores to cause this to occur. In my application this means it just takes longer for the experiment to complete. If I’m processing video it slows down the frame rate I see. In the camera it might mean the digic-x can no longer process the data stream fast enough if it similarly must throttle its performance to prevent overheating. It’s not a simple on/off switch that some here believe it is.

This is just a part of modern computer architectures which I’m sure includes digic-x and can affect the memory cards as well, both CFExpress and high speed SD. The reason that processor clock rates no longer get faster is the amount of power they required which generated excessive amounts of heat. You don’t see many above 4GHz these days. What you do see is more cores at the same clock rate. Data centers now spend as much to cool their systems as to run them, locating them near ocean or northern climates in some cases to reduce costs.


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## pcho (Aug 6, 2020)

Why can’t they have an adapter to have the cards fitted externally and for camera to still work with memory card door opened. This way the camera is not as hot and internal recording my go longer as well.


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 6, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> There is still card activity and battery activity unless external recording with external power


I'm not 100% sure what's going on there, but if you record externaly and don't write to the cards, there should be no CPU power spent on the cards anyway. So I guessed a purely physical reason why cards removal might be helping.


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## usern4cr (Aug 6, 2020)

He got a wonderful increase in record time to 3 to 4 hours for 4K highquality.
BUT, he pulled 2 things out of the body: the battery and the mem cards, and added external power to power it and a "dummy battery" - which I assume lets the external power get to the body.

To say you're getting the extra time just because of taking the cards out is silly, as that would infer that taking the battery out had no affect. When we all know that if the battery was providing power for 4 hours (if it could) when you're not hooked up to wall power (almost 100% of the time for most casual shooters) then it would produce heat in the battery itself as it discharges. And that heat, coupled with the tight seals of the R5, has nowhere to go but to heat up the camera. In fact, it's possible that taking the battery out had *more* of a cooling effect than taking the memory cards outs. He needs to test it with just the mem cards out, and then with just the battery taken out, and let us know what happens.

So? Test it without cards only, then test without battery only, take 2 aspirin and call us in the morning!


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## Otara (Aug 6, 2020)

Battery grip have any impact? Cant see anything on it, might not do much.

Edit: Wonder if the hack if delaying Canons ability to respond, the timing of those guys is pretty horrible for Canon from a ransom perspective.


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 7, 2020)

bhf3737 said:


> CFexpress cards get hot. They need and have heatsink.That is why they have an on-die thermal sensor and SMART reading info from the card is available to the device firmware, similar to info from your computer hard drive.



This theory can be tested by removing the Cfexpress card only. I wonder why would the system read thermal data from the card when not writing to it. If it's the case, it can be a software bug or oversight.


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## David - Sydney (Aug 7, 2020)

magarity said:


> So just leave the card door open and clip heat sink fins on the end of the cards. Problem solved!


I just checked my R5 and also Gordon Undone confirmed that opening the card doors turns off the camera. As soon as the door closes, it starts back up. Makes sense in some ways but it clearly doesn't allow card swaps a la A7Siii


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## Otara (Aug 7, 2020)

This also might be rather obvious but has anyone tried alternating CFexpress cards?


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## David - Sydney (Aug 7, 2020)

bhf3737 said:


> A little bit more on temperature management of CFexpress cards.
> As this article indicates: “In general, we find techniques like throttling, which may be employed to reduce SSD temperature, to be effective at reducing the failure rate of SSDs. We also find that SSD temperature is correlated with the power used to transmit data across the PCIe bus, which can potentially be used as a proxy for temperature in the absence of SSD temperature sensors.”
> In other words, at the end of the day, it may be the CFexpress card itself that employs some kinds of power throttling to reduce its temperature, and cause the 8K/4K read/write unsustainable. The difficulty is that different cards may have different heat tolerance and management policies.
> Perhaps someone can experiment with different CFexpress cards and report the results here.
> ...


This may explain why people with the CFe Sandisk 128GB card say that they have had no issues using it but Canon says that it is not approved (1DXiii or R5). Not many people have multiple CFe cards from different manufacturers - yet


----------



## David - Sydney (Aug 7, 2020)

This may also be the reason why Canon doesn't allow duplicate video recording to both cards as both cards heating up contributes to less video time.


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 7, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> He got a wonderful increase in record time to 3 to 4 hours for 4K highquality.
> BUT, he pulled 2 things out of the body: the battery and the mem cards, and added external power to power it and a "dummy battery" - which I assume lets the external power get to the body.
> 
> To say you're getting the extra time just because of taking the cards out is silly, as that would infer that taking the battery out had no affect. When we all know that if the battery was providing power for 4 hours (if it could) when you're not hooked up to wall power (almost 100% of the time for most casual shooters) then it would produce heat in the battery itself as it discharges. And that heat, coupled with the tight seals of the R5, has nowhere to go but to heat up the camera. In fact, it's possible that taking the battery out had *more* of a cooling effect than taking the memory cards outs. He needs to test it with just the mem cards out, and then with just the battery taken out, and let us know what happens.
> ...


He repeated the test with the included Battery and it ran till the battery was exhausted.


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## Respinder (Aug 7, 2020)

genriquez said:


> To be fair he did include a blurb about the 4 hours with external. But he wasn't enthusiastic about it and still wants a recall.


That's the definition of a tabloid: sensationalize the headline but bury the real facts into the story.


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## usern4cr (Aug 7, 2020)

Ramage said:


> He repeated the test with the included Battery and it ran till the battery was exhausted.


He specifically said he took the battery out and replaced it with a dummy battery. Where did he say he used a real battery (instead of the dummy battery) and if it went to the end of the battery then how long did he say that was?

The 3-4 hour test & claims were for no memory cards and no battery and with a dummy battery inserted so the camera would run. Hence you have no battery to heat up since it's now just an electrical pass thru of external power with no resistance relative to the camera.

To be clear: I think this is GREAT news for R5 video users. But please, we need an identical follow up test without just cards, and another without just the battery. We've already got one without both. Then we'll know what's really making the difference.


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## ericjon23 (Aug 7, 2020)

RIP sony fanboys. this is good news .


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 7, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> NO he didn't. He specifically said he took the battery out and replaced it with a dummy battery. Note: If it turns out I'm wrong, then please show me at what point in the video he says this. And do you think the body operates without electricity? No, so you plug it in to DC external power. Hence you have no battery to heat up since it's now just an electrical pass thru with no resistance relative to the camera.


It is ok to be wrong. Happens to the best of us.

Linked again in case you missed it - 



 he also pointed this out on his twitter feed so I cheated and read all the info before posting.


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## Juangrande (Aug 7, 2020)

pcho said:


> Why can’t they have an adapter to have the cards fitted externally and for camera to still work with memory card door opened. This way the camera is not as hot and internal recording my go longer as well.


Could work. 
Kinda like those cassette adapters for car stereos to play digital media.


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## skp (Aug 7, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I'm not 100% sure what's going on there, but if you record externally and don't write to the cards, there should be no CPU power spent on the cards anyway. So I guessed a purely physical reason why cards removal might be helping.


I'm really curious about what's going on here, but here's my theory. Let me know if this sounds crazy...
Is it possible that something in the firmware is constantly making the DIGIC chip encode a stream of data encoded to H.264, H.265, or the raw file format even while the camera is not recording? In theory this could have been intended to minimize delay when the user pushes the record button, thus sending the data to start writing to the card. Think of the encoded data stream like a hose that is just constantly on, spraying water into the back yard until the user decides to put the hose in a bucket and start filling up the bucket. 
My theory is that the removal of the card is a bug that turns the hose off, but that bug could be the firmware fix to the whole problem. In that case, the firmware fix could simply be to change that behavior so that the CPU-intensive encoding work doesn't start until the user hits record. The tradeoff would be that it might take longer to get a recording started. 
For context, I know that when I'm using my friend's Sony FS7 on film sets, I press record and have to wait a second or two as the tally light blinks and then goes solid before I can be confident that the recording has started and thus before I can call out "camera speeding." Some consumers/non-professionals who buy the R5 might get upset if they miss a moment because the camera didn't start recording the instant they hit the record button.


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## slclick (Aug 7, 2020)

Juangrande said:


> Could work.
> Kinda like those cassette adapters for car stereos to play digital media.


Yes this, because

It''s very expensive and hacks and bodges like that are welcomed by the small minority of videographers who insist on the form factor even though it's full of compromises. /s 

SMH, the video side of things is wraught with frustration, anxiety, regret and general melancholy. Enjoy!


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## Jethro (Aug 7, 2020)

Digesting some of this it strikes me that Canon should release some sort of technical update on this issue. Surely they have been replicating these tests themselves, in all possible variations of cards / batteries / external outputs, and given the ongoing flamewars the issue is causing they should release whatever their results are. Especially if it is a card-based hardware issue, and even more so if may be fixable via firmware.


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## usern4cr (Aug 7, 2020)

Ramage said:


> It is ok to be wrong. Happens to the best of us.
> 
> Linked again in case you missed it -
> 
> ...


Well, you had the advantage of seeing a 2nd video which did mention he ran it on internal battery power with the cards removed and he got it to go 2 hours before the battery ran out without a heat overrun. Now that I've seen the 2nd video you mentioned (thanks for the post, by the way), that's GREAT!!! ABSOLUTELY!!! But at that time he should have inserted a 2nd charged battery and continued immediately to see if he could get to 3 or 4 hours. Without doing that he can't know whether the limit was just 2 hours or how much further it would be.

I'd also like to see someone do these tests where the camera is on a tripod but instead of looking at a (I assume) non-moving static scene it is looking at a scene with continuous random motion (like a sidewalk or hallway where people are moving continuously). That would keep the and lens AF active for the whole duration, which may (or may not) affect the duration without overheating. If the camera was handheld instead of on a tripod it would also cause the IBIS and lens IS to work continuously.

I do have this question: Can the R5 run 4K HQ which gives a 4K 10 bit 8.2.2 stream to the SD (NOT CFexpress) card continuously? I don't know the answer, so please tell me. If that was the case then you could run the test recording to SD with the CFexpress removed and see what happens.

I have a 2nd question: If physically removing the cards makes such a difference, but having them in the camera but not using them (that is, recording only to the Ninja) does have a heat problem, then that means that the camera is keeping these cards under power whether they're being used or not. That would be a sad & bad thing to do. Canon - did you plan on adding power shut-off to the cards if they're inserted but not used or not? Hmmm? If this is a hard wire thing (and not under software control) then they won't be able to fix it in firmware.

No matter what, knowing recording to the Ninja without the cards installed and with using an internal batter for 2 hours (of the battery limit) is a HUGE saving grace for those wanting to do long video since the Ninja isn't that expensive relative to the Canon setup anyway (and many pros would have it anyway). I bet after more careful testing we'll find all the ways & combinations to get some really long times for 4kHQ, which is superior to (non-HQ)4K.


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## genriquez (Aug 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Umm, doesn't SD lock you out of all the better R5 recording modes?
> 
> - A





skp said:


> I'm really curious about what's going on here, but here's my theory. Let me know if this sounds crazy...
> Is it possible that something in the firmware is constantly making the DIGIC chip encode a stream of data encoded to H.264, H.265, or the raw file format even while the camera is not recording? In theory this could have been intended to minimize delay when the user pushes the record button, thus sending the data to start writing to the card. Think of the encoded data stream like a hose that is just constantly on, spraying water into the back yard until the user decides to put the hose in a bucket and start filling up the bucket.
> My theory is that the removal of the card is a bug that turns the hose off, but that bug could be the firmware fix to the whole problem. In that case, the firmware fix could simply be to change that behavior so that the CPU-intensive encoding work doesn't start until the user hits record. The tradeoff would be that it might take longer to get a recording started.
> For context, I know that when I'm using my friend's Sony FS7 on film sets, I press record and have to wait a second or two as the tally light blinks and then goes solid before I can be confident that the recording has started and thus before I can call out "camera speeding." Some consumers/non-professionals who buy the R5 might get upset if they miss a moment because the camera didn't start recording the instant they hit the record button.



My current hypothesis is that CFexpress cards throttle at high temperatures and/or the camera knows to shutdown when the internal temperature might damage or corrupt data on the card. In the 1dx iii which also uses CFexpress, the larger form factor and heat pipes allow for better heat dissipation. On the R5, the form factor is smaller and thus very slow heat dissipation. I think some people are reporting longer possible record times also with SD cards instead of CFexpress.

Alik Griffin asks, "Are CFexpress cards to blame?"

The SanDisk Extreme UHS-II SD card has an operating temperature of, "-13 to 185°F/ -25 to 85°C"
The SanDisk Extreme Pro CFast card has an operating temperature of, -4 to 158°F/ -20 to 70°C"

So maybe if you remove those cards, then the camera has a higher thermal limit? It doesn't have to protect any data from corruption or a memory card from melting.

I never film anything over 2-3 minutes. Let alone 4 hours. But the engineering issues of the camera just fascinate me.


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## Otara (Aug 7, 2020)

My own fiddling is suggesting that they've set some kind of maximum shooting time regardless of actual temperature, with a mandatory cool down time till it resets. I also suspect something has happened where its more aggressive than intended.

I have a dummy battery from my R, I shot in 8k for a while (less than 10 minutes), turned it off and on again and then it came back with a maximum of 10 mins to shoot 8k (in the . Blew air with a USB fan into the empty card slots, removed everything, changed to SD card only, etc. The express card is very cool to the touch, and the available limits dont change even if the CFexpress card isnt in the camera.

Edit: Doh Im confusing estimates with actual duration.

I suspect we're going to see a response from Canon on this soon, be interesting to see what they say.


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## Jethro (Aug 7, 2020)

[QUOTE="Otara, post: 854027, member: 70343"

I suspect we're going to see a response from Canon on this soon, be interesting to see what they say.
[/QUOTE]
I can't believe they haven't been testing this 24/7 over the last week or more?! Anything they do say now will be analysed down to the punctuation marks, so they would be triple-testing any findings, but even so surely they'll put something out soon.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 7, 2020)

Chromedbustop said:


> I think at best this solves one problem but creates another. Because while you now might be able to record longer video you've sacrificed the versatility of the camera. With the additional attachments it would be much more difficult to use it for photography. If you know you'll only need it for one or the other then it's fine, but switching back and forth between the two no longer becomes very practical. One of the big advantages of hybrid cameras is being able to quickly and easily switch between photo and video. Can't do that with a recorder attached (and all that comes with having one)
> 
> Still, it is a solution of sorts to the overheating problem.


Are you saying that a battery grip would sacrifice veRsatility of the camera? Okay


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## Otara (Aug 7, 2020)

This is where the hack might be having an impact on responding?


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## Otara (Aug 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Are you saying that a battery grip would sacrifice veRsatility of the camera? Okay



Not having the cards in the camera might impact stills shooting a bit.


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## Bdbtoys (Aug 7, 2020)

What would be really nice, if they allow direct writes to a usb 3 drive. Would act like an internal w/o the heat of the CFExpress.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 7, 2020)

Otara said:


> Not having the cards in the camera might impact stills shooting a bit.


Yeah, who says that you would have to remove cards for stills? Disconnect / ignore cards for video Mode in firmware, keep cards In use for stills.


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## usern4cr (Aug 7, 2020)

Otara said:


> Not having the cards in the camera might impact stills shooting a bit.


I don't know the Ninja, so I'm asking this: Can it record stills, or just video?


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## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 7, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I don't know the Ninja, so I'm asking this: Can it record stills, or just video?


Just video. Hdmi wouldn't support the 8k resolution of the stills anyway.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 7, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> I saw this video while surfing Youtube this morning as well. It seems to make sense that the less the camera is doing itself, the slower it will heat up.
> 
> I have separately heard that CFexpress cards heat up in normal use as well, but since I don't have anything that uses them I don't know. Funny if the card slot is the problem, more than the digic.
> 
> ...


I noticed that some CF express cards do get quite hot. I wonder how much variation there might be, they likely all use the same internal components.


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## landon (Aug 7, 2020)

Getting weirder. 

R5 USAGES?

STILLS ONLY - Photographers
S + Click forever
V - Can't access HQ modes, 4K120p, 8K30p after taking many stills due to heat build up.

DECENT HYBRID - Run and Gun Wedding photo/video
S + Click forever
V + Access basic 4K30p, 4K60p forever
V - Can't access HQ modes, 4K120p, 8K30p after taking many stills/videos due to heat build up.

"Budget" GOOD VIDEO (no stills) - Documentary, interviews, sole wedding videographer, music videos
V + External Ninja 5. No cards in camera, dummy battery, 24p (NTSC): HQ4K24p, HQ4K60p, or other basic modes.
V +? Insert CFExpress card into slot for quick bursts of 4K120p, 8K30p, then remove the card and continue with external recording for other modes?

Budget video = For students or just starting out. 
New Canon entry RF Cinema camera is the next step up.


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## David - Sydney (Aug 7, 2020)

I have no issue with Canon offering a service centre option (cost $500?) to retrofit with substantial longer video times. Ideally with HDMI2.1. They did it with initial 5Div upgrade to Canon log for $99 (plus shipping). This wasn't a simple firmware upgrade. Canon then baked in the upgrade for new versions and increased the cost from $3500 to $3600. That would be acceptable if the change is only $100. if more then....
Or, Canon could then have 2 models R5 and R5v (see the v = video and also 5  )
Or, Canon releases a grip with built-in peltier fan cooling connected to the tripod mount/ base plate for $500. Preferably with 2 batteries or maybe just 1 would give you 2 hours of recording
And/or, Canon could also now announce a partnership with Atomos etc for a compatible video solution with longer times


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## MrToes (Aug 7, 2020)

Great news, wonder who's going to test this theory next?


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## Stu_bert (Aug 7, 2020)

skp said:


> I'm really curious about what's going on here, but here's my theory. Let me know if this sounds crazy...
> Is it possible that something in the firmware is constantly making the DIGIC chip encode a stream of data encoded to H.264, H.265, or the raw file format even while the camera is not recording? In theory this could have been intended to minimize delay when the user pushes the record button, thus sending the data to start writing to the card. Think of the encoded data stream like a hose that is just constantly on, spraying water into the back yard until the user decides to put the hose in a bucket and start filling up the bucket.
> My theory is that the removal of the card is a bug that turns the hose off, but that bug could be the firmware fix to the whole problem. In that case, the firmware fix could simply be to change that behavior so that the CPU-intensive encoding work doesn't start until the user hits record. The tradeoff would be that it might take longer to get a recording started.
> For context, I know that when I'm using my friend's Sony FS7 on film sets, I press record and have to wait a second or two as the tally light blinks and then goes solid before I can be confident that the recording has started and thus before I can call out "camera speeding." Some consumers/non-professionals who buy the R5 might get upset if they miss a moment because the camera didn't start recording the instant they hit the record button.


It might be the cfexpress chipset is not Canons, and as I and others have mentioned, the device is kept active even if it is not being used. Whether Canon can disable that and grab back some power and this heat, who knows. 

Ethernet used to keep full power on the interface, switches etc, until they came up with “green Ethernet” so it’s not unheard of for tech not to be entirely energy conscious.

Encoding into h264/h265 is expensive for compute and thus heat. Plus where would it store it? Perhaps In a hidden file on the drive? Then you would get people complaining about storage reporting incorrect free space. I don’t think it is like smartphones, always processing in a buffer once you launch the phone app. But hey it’s all conjecture!

I think it is the device is active when inserted even if it is not used. Whether that is under Canon’s control or the chip which controls the cfexpress etc I don’t know. Ditto whether firmware can change that habit. 

That the sd Cards don’t generate as much heat may be simply that you’re not pushing data as fast.


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## tomislavmoze (Aug 7, 2020)

I had a situation where I filmed LQ 4k 30p for about 2 hours straight, in those two hours after about an hour I got locked out of all the HQ modes, and got the overheating warning when I switch to them. But an interesting thing happened. When I switched my battery after 2 hours it instantly gave me 20 minutes of 8k and 7 minuts of 4k120, althought 10 minutes before when I tried to use those modes while the first battery was in I could not do any filming in those modes. After 20 minutes of 8k it heated again I continued filming with the second battery in LQ 4K until it drain (it was an older battery so it lasted about an hour of footage) I tried to replicate the same thing with a third battery and I could not do it.
It seams that with the first changing of the batteries I trigger some bug or sort of a bug that managed to resetet the cameras heat control which definitely suggest that there is room in software for improvement.


----------



## domo_p1000 (Aug 7, 2020)

It seems plausible that firmware could be part of the problem - at least it is possible that a future firmware u/g might help overcome the overheating problem. It would be interesting to see more testing that helps to isolate components that most impact the phenonium. 

Perhaps testing the difference between changes in the camera's setup: is temperature equally limiting when filming in PAL and NTSC, for example. Such a subtle change ought to make little or no difference to the overheating characteristics, but if there is a notable difference, it would point more towards a software/firmware problem rather than a hardware problem.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 7, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> I had a situation where I filmed LQ 4k 30p for about 2 hours straight, in those two hours after about an hour I got locked out of all the HQ modes, and got the overheating warning when I switch to them. But an interesting thing happened. When I switched my battery after 2 hours it instantly gave me 20 minutes of 8k and 7 minuts of 4k120, althought 10 minutes before when I tried to use those modes while the first battery was in I could not do any filming in those modes. After 20 minutes of 8k it heated again I continued filming with the second battery in LQ 4K until it drain (it was an older battery so it lasted about an hour of footage) I tried to replicate the same thing with a third battery and I could not do it.
> It seams that with the first changing of the batteries I trigger some bug or sort of a bug that managed to resetet the cameras heat control which definitely suggest that there is room in software for improvement.


Really interesting, thanks for sharing. If you get chance to replicate and reproduce that would be even more awesome


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## visionrouge.net (Aug 7, 2020)

I have been doing some test on DJI Inspire 2 with a Cine SSD extention cable.
Maybe it will be possible to get the same with CFExpress and get the card out of the camera body?


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## jayphotoworks (Aug 7, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Thanks for the practical info from someone who uses it.
> 
> When you use the atomos, or any HDMI out on a Canon, does it switch off the evf and back display, ie you have to use the atomos to monitor what you’re recording?



Im not sure with the R5 as I don’t shoot Canon right now, but Sony has a few quirks.

Only the A6600/r4/a9/a9ii can record internally while outputting over HDMI. Older Sony cameras turn off the rear lcd once the rec button is pressed. Also, in 4K, recording internally with HDMI disables Face AF and Eye AF. This is fixed on the A7sIII as tested by Philip Bloom most likely due to the new processor. I think these cameras all have relatively limited processing power. Maybe the R5 is better, but I haven’t seen any tests yet.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 7, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> Im not sure with the R5 as I don’t shoot Canon right now, but Sony has a few quirks.
> 
> Only the A6600/r4/a9/a9ii can record internally while outputting over HDMI. Older Sony cameras turn off the rear lcd once the rec button is pressed. Also, in 4K, recording internally with HDMI disables Face AF and Eye AF. This is fixed on the A7sIII as tested by Philip Bloom most likely due to the new processor. I think these cameras all have relatively limited processing power. Maybe the R5 is better, but I haven’t seen any tests yet.


Thanks for replying, appreciated. I guess I was trying to figure out if the atomos could act like a recorder and you still use the camera display(s) and thus it could be “hidden” away.

Thanks again.


----------



## anth455 (Aug 7, 2020)

I found this review https://ihitthebutton.com/canon-eos-r-vs-eos-r5/

It compares the hq vs non hq. Its the last two images. Its saying its a 200% crop! Who views a video at 200% ?
So I saved the first file and cropped out the non hq then viewed them at 50% so that should now be 100%?
They are a bit different but I think if this was a moving video you may find it hard to notice. So then I sharpened the non hq and it looks nearly the same.

I have no idea why removing the card allows more recording. Only thing I can think of its firmware bug or something in the camera generates more heat with a card in the slot? The actual writing to the card is probably not the problem because hq and non hq are the same bitrate 470Mbps. If it is a real heat problem then its probably because its reading a lot more pixels in the encoding for the over sampled version.

I assume line skipping reads half of the pixels from the sensor. Also encoding half of the pixels. Oversampling has to read all of the pixels on the sensor then down sample it. I think doing this may make it read the values from its internal buffer multiple times for each new pixel in the down sampled version. So reading all of the pixels from the sensor probably generates heat and processing twice as many pixels also.

The only other thing I can think of is it can output uncompressed down sampled 4k while staying in the heat limit. But doing that and encoding it and writing it to the card goes over the limit. So by not encoding it and writing it to the card you are saving a lot of processing power/heat. We may not see a solution for internal recording if its really at its limits unless they either make the code more efficient or add more heat sink to the processor. I don't see this working for the sensor but that appears to not be a problem because it is ok with external recording. It looks like the card may play a smaller part because ipb vs all-i does not change the recording times but all-i would stress the card a lot more. But it is possible that the heat from the card is increasing the internal temperature to the point that it can't do over sampling and encoding not going over the limit. So its not that it can't handle writing hq vs non hq to the card just that it makes the internal temperature too high to do it for a long time with over sampling.

Not using all of the pixels (line skipping) is probably what causes the small amount of softness. Its a while since I have looked at any image processing code but I do work as a software developer. So this is just my logic of what could be going on. Not sure if down sampling from 8k to 4k is that expensive on the hardware they use on this type of camera. But once it is down sampled it is now the same as the non hq version in terms of processing to encode it!


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## Mike9129 (Aug 7, 2020)

visionrouge.net said:


> I have been doing some test on DJI Inspire 2 with a Cine SSD extention cable.
> Maybe it will be possible to get the same with CFExpress and get the card out of the camera body?
> View attachment 191962


Why do you fly with the ssd external? For faster swapping or have you found a way to load larger SSD's into the canister and fool the I2 into thinking its straight from DJI?

I fly the same thing myself and have never even thought to try what you're doing in that photo


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## anth455 (Aug 7, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Here is a second video from Vistek where they did the same thing (he didn’t run a torture test but ran it for 2 hours without breaking a sweat)
> 
> ‪Canon R5 Redux: Deep Testing Overheating, Resolution, and Auto Focus.
> 
> ...



I don't do a lot of video but the samples in this make me think non hq 4k is probably ok for some people.
Its going to be hard to see the difference its not like 1080 vs 4k difference.
The 60 and 120 fps are probably not going to get used for more than 5 minutes by me. Other people may want to use if for longer and I understand that.
Considering that 4 mins of 120 4k is 64gb that is a lot for me. 60fps ipb looks better for storage at 36 min.

It all looks like it depends on what you want to do with it. To me this camera does more in one box than any other canon I have seen.
It is not really unbiased to compare it with cameras that have fans or a lot less pixels. You can say they do different things but its upto the user to decide what is best for them.


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## masterpix (Aug 7, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I guess without two cards there's just two ventilation holes which improves air circulation.


The card compartment when closed is sealed, there is no ventialtion going on there.


----------



## Chromedbustop (Aug 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Are you saying that a battery grip would sacrifice veRsatility of the camera? Okay



What does a battery grip have to do with it?


----------



## magarity (Aug 7, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Needs a firmware fix - open the card door and camera switches off.


Actually that was meant as levity which I thought was obvious from the part about the heatsink fins attachment.


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## tomislavmoze (Aug 7, 2020)

So I've done another test, I took my sandisk CF-express 256gb card filled it full capacity and done a transfer of all the files to my MacBook pro which made it really hot to the tuch also reduced the speed of the transfer after I tried to put something back to it. The most interesting thing was the fact that I could not use any HQ modes on my R5 that was siting since last night on my desk in a shaded room. It seams that definitely the problem with overheating comes from the cf-express card and the communication of the camera with it.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 7, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> I have no issue with Canon offering a service centre option (cost $500?) to retrofit with substantial longer video times. Ideally with HDMI2.1. They did it with initial 5Div upgrade to Canon log for $99 (plus shipping). This wasn't a simple firmware upgrade. Canon then baked in the upgrade for new versions and increased the cost from $3500 to $3600. That would be acceptable if the change is only $100. if more then....
> Or, Canon could then have 2 models R5 and R5v (see the v = video and also 5  )
> Or, Canon releases a grip with built-in peltier fan cooling connected to the tripod mount/ base plate for $500. Preferably with 2 batteries or maybe just 1 would give you 2 hours of recording
> And/or, Canon could also now announce a partnership with Atomos etc for a compatible video solution with longer times


you see. you would ne


Chromedbustop said:


> What does a battery grip have to do with it?


An external recorder Inbuilt directly in battery grip.


----------



## bergstrom (Aug 7, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> This is actually great news, this means I can use my R5 with my atomos for a more serious work.
> Although the skipped line 4k is good enough for a lot of work, this is even better. So basically that means all 4k modes except 120p are basically available all the time.
> To bad the R6 did not score that great times with the external recorder.
> Since R5 is basically the best all-around photo camera today and with this setup I would say it is maybe even the best hybrid camera today it will be a bit large set up for photo/video jobs if you do both at the same time. But If I get two I'm covered.
> ...



there's no portable solution though, is there? The atomos has to be connected to pc? I can't haul my pc around on a trolly while filming at event.


----------



## bergstrom (Aug 7, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> So I've done another test, I took my sandisk CF-express 256gb card filled it full capacity and done a transfer of all the files to my MacBook pro which made it really hot to the tuch also reduced the speed of the transfer after I tried to put something back to it. The most interesting thing was the fact that I could not use any HQ modes on my R5 that was siting since last night on my desk in a shaded room. It seams that definitely the problem with overheating comes from the cf-express card and the communication of the camera with it.



It's good to talk. Unless you're the CF card and R5.


----------



## landon (Aug 7, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> So I've done another test, I took my sandisk CF-express 256gb card filled it full capacity and done a transfer of all the files to my MacBook pro which made it really hot to the tuch also reduced the speed of the transfer after I tried to put something back to it. The most interesting thing was the fact that I could not use any HQ modes on my R5 that was siting since last night on my desk in a shaded room. It seams that definitely the problem with overheating comes from the cf-express card and the communication of the camera with it.


This feels like the web's collective effort to figure this out, just like when Everybody in the world was searching for MH370.


----------



## tomislavmoze (Aug 7, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> there's no portable solution though, is there? The atomos has to be connected to pc? I can't haul my pc around on a trolly while filming at event.


Atomos can be powered by an Sony NP battery so it is portable, you just need a cage to rig everything. But it goes the same for most of the cinema cameras, without the rigging they are usually not that use-full. There is also an option to set up a rig with V mount battery that will power you camera and the atomos ninja 5.


----------



## tomislavmoze (Aug 7, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> So I've done another test, I took my sandisk CF-express 256gb card filled it full capacity and done a transfer of all the files to my MacBook pro which made it really hot to the tuch also reduced the speed of the transfer after I tried to put something back to it. The most interesting thing was the fact that I could not use any HQ modes on my R5 that was siting since last night on my desk in a shaded room. It seams that definitely the problem with overheating comes from the cf-express card and the communication of the camera with it.


20 minutes after the camera still can't shoot any HQ content, so it seams the problem lies in the card and its heat control that somehow blocks the camera, unfortunatly I dont have two cards to play a bit more with it.



landon said:


> This feels like the web's collective effort to figure this out, just like when Everybody in the world was searching for MH370.


Well The problem is canon gives certain number of cameras to their ambassadors, and maybe the number of those units is not enough to colect all the data, now with more units out in real life scenarios there will be more data about the camera and how it works.


----------



## anth455 (Aug 7, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> 20 minutes after the camera still can't shoot any HQ content, so it seams the problem lies in the card and its heat control that somehow blocks the camera, unfortunatly I dont have two cards to play a bit more with it.
> 
> 
> Well The problem is canon gives certain number of cameras to their ambassadors, and maybe the number of those units is not enough to colect all the data, now with more units out in real life scenarios there will be more data about the camera and how it works.



Wow I had assumed it was increasing the ambient temperature in the the camera while writing.
But this may indicate it can some how know the temperature of the card!
So maybe its not the down sampling of 8k to 4k that is causing high temperature. But that is the only difference from hq and non hq. The bit rate is the same.


----------



## tomislavmoze (Aug 7, 2020)

anth455 said:


> Wow I had assumed it was increasing the ambient temperature in the the camera while writing.
> But this may indicate it can some how know the temperature of the card!
> So maybe its not the down sampling of 8k to 4k that is causing high temperature. But that is the only difference from hq and non hq. The bit rate is the same.


I tired to replicate the same scenario, and the second test did not lock me out. I guess this all to firmware 1.0. They have a lot of things to clean and polish.


----------



## Whowe (Aug 7, 2020)

sulla said:


> Actually, I believe physics works that way. If a thing (a component inside a camera body) can cool down nearly completely within 2h, then it must have a certain thermal conductivity towards a heatsink (environment). With constant heat input, there is just no way it overheats only after 4 hours. If heat buildup takes that long, cooldown will take even longer. So, if the camera overheats after 4 hours, it will not be completely cool after 4 hours either. Still, recording times are fully recovered after only 2h, apparently.


You are right that it all has to do with thermal conductivity. But just for a second, think about a camera body with a high thermal conductivity. It can remove the heat as fast as it is generated inside the camera and the camera never overheats. This unit will also cool down quickly when the heat source is removed because it can transfer the heat quickly. (time to over heat >> cool down time) 

A body with a little less thermal conductivity, but still a high rate of heat transfer, will still remove heat quickly and take a long time to over heat, but will also cool down quickly. (time to over heat > cool down time) 

A body with poor thermal conductivity (i.e. low heat transfer rate), will heat up quickly since it can not remove the heat. It will also take longer to cool down, again because of the low thermal conductivity (i.e. low heat transfer rate). (time to over heat < cool down time) 

So high heat transfer out of the body tends to result in a camera taking a long time (if ever) to overheat, but will also help cool down quicker. On the other hand, poor heat transfer would likely result in quicker overheating and longer cool down times.


----------



## Pape (Aug 7, 2020)

anth455 said:


> I found this review https://ihitthebutton.com/canon-eos-r-vs-eos-r5/
> 
> It compares the hq vs non hq. Its the last two images. Its saying its a 200% crop! Who views a video at 200% ?
> So I saved the first file and cropped out the non hq then viewed them at 50% so that should now be 100%?
> ...


Line skipping is more challenging for optic i believe ,softness may be from soft optic too? Nearly all RF lenses are soft with 45mpix sensor.
Every RF lense makes max sharp with downsampled Hq4k


----------



## adigoks (Aug 7, 2020)

after this so much drama. people start to get the idea why overheating happens while canon already wrote down the cause of problem in their manual .


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 7, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> I tired to replicate the same scenario, and the second test did not lock me out. I guess this all to firmware 1.0. They have a lot of things to clean and polish.


Great testing, thanks - certainly seems to be highlighting where the focus should be.

Would it be fair therefore to reverse the test. I think I have read that blowing cold air into the card socket makes no difference. Could you record 8k and see if you can get a quicker recovery time by just cooling the cfexpress card once removed from the camera (a lot cheaper than you buying another card)?

As the heated cfexpress card showed overheating then one might deduce the controller for the cfexpress is ok - as you say the camera was unused. So if you can cool the card, will that extend the times or will we find that even though the cfexpress card is clearly generating heat and when too hot prevents it being used, there are other components generating heat that the r5 can’t dissipate quick enough when recording 8k? Would love to be able to help you test, but mine is still stuck in pre-order phase...

Great work again, thanks.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 7, 2020)

adigoks said:


> View attachment 191970
> 
> 
> after this so much drama. people start to get the idea why overheating happens while canon already wrote down the cause of problem in their manual .


Yes but if all you had to do was swap out the cfexpress every 15 mins and could continue to record for an hour imagine the response. Don’t buy 512GB cfexpress, but lots of small ones and an ice pack, lol 

That would improve the viability of both cameras for a lot of people.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 7, 2020)

From prograde site comparing cfexpress and sd express

“Heat Dissipation
The form factor of CFexpress Type B follows the original XQD physical size attributes. This larger form factor offers two benefits. First, its size allows more heat dissipation, but more importantly it utilizes a metal housing which allows heat to be drawn off of the enclosure. This allows the card to run cooler during extended high-speed recording sessions such as 4K RAW video capture (if used with the appropriate heat conducting host connector). The SD express form factor does not offer a provision for extracting heat through a host connector during high-speed operation.“


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 7, 2020)

And from canon site






Compatible Cards (EOS R5)


Compatible Cards What memory cards have been verified to work with the camera (CFexpress card)? Cards That Can Record Movies Compatible Cards The following cards ...




asia.canon





Smaller sandisk cards are not verified compatible with 8k. Also I didn’t realise 8k ipb could work with uhs ii slot


----------



## ahsanford (Aug 7, 2020)

PP finally gets in on the R5 clicks gravy train:









Removing the Memory Cards 'Fixes' EOS R5 Overheating Over HDMI


The plot thickens... in a pair of videos released this week, YouTuber and Twitch streamer Wayne from No Life Digital shows how simply removing the memory




petapixel.com


----------



## usern4cr (Aug 7, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> And from canon site
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This Canon chart says that it can record 8K IPB 10 bit video to SD v90 or above card. Wouldn't this mean that you could *record 10 bit 8K without any CFexpress card* in the slot? I wonder if you record continuously for hours this way?


----------



## tomislavmoze (Aug 7, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Great testing, thanks - certainly seems to be highlighting where the focus should be.
> 
> Would it be fair therefore to reverse the test. I think I have read that blowing cold air into the card socket makes no difference. Could you record 8k and see if you can get a quicker recovery time by just cooling the cfexpress card once removed from the camera (a lot cheaper than you buying another card)?
> 
> ...


I tried that, puting card to the fridge till it cooled down, but it did not help.
I guess it was just a bug since i could not replicate the situation and cooling the card did not help.


----------



## adigoks (Aug 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> PP finally gets in on the R5 clicks gravy train:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



R5 is really news worthy.


tomislavmoze said:


> I tried that, puting card to the fridge till it cooled down, but it did not help.
> I guess it was just a bug since i could not replicate the situation and cooling the card did not help.



how about cooling both the camera & the card separately in the fridge with card door left open ?
because... after long time use the camera also got hot affected by the card.


----------



## bhf3737 (Aug 7, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> I had a situation where I filmed LQ 4k 30p for about 2 hours straight, in those two hours after about an hour I got locked out of all the HQ modes, and got the overheating warning when I switch to them. But an interesting thing happened. When I switched my battery after 2 hours it instantly gave me 20 minutes of 8k and 7 minuts of 4k120, althought 10 minutes before when I tried to use those modes while the first battery was in I could not do any filming in those modes. After 20 minutes of 8k it heated again I continued filming with the second battery in LQ 4K until it drain (it was an older battery so it lasted about an hour of footage) I tried to replicate the same thing with a third battery and I could not do it.
> It seams that with the first changing of the batteries I trigger some bug or sort of a bug that managed to resetet the cameras heat control which definitely suggest that there is room in software for improvement.


Thanks for the testing. LP-E6 (N and H) battery pack has a smart chip to regulate and maintain voltage, temperature and performance. Temperature and other info from the chip is communicated to the camera and used by firmware to control the overall operation. Same with the CFexpress cards. The reading from thermal sensors for other components (e.g. IBIS) is more controlled but reading from batteries and memory cards that are interchangeable may wary and I think this is the source of trouble we see. Depending on the info from the CFex card and batteries we experience some random temperature management policy which is actually not random and decided by the firmware. I think the policies can be refined in later firmware updates.


----------



## Max TT (Aug 7, 2020)

I am on a job for the last couple days, should be done next Tuesday, effing weather is terrible... I haven't been able to read through this thread.

But I am so glad the community is testing the hell out of this camera and finding/sharing solutions to work around certain limitations in the R5.

It still sucks that you are gonna need to fork over about $1000 for an atomos and it's accessories for a $3900 flagship camera to fulfill certain shooting requirements. But at least there is a solution for some. Big thanks to these creators who are investing their time and energy to accurately inform us about these products.

Enjoy your shooting.


----------



## PN5X5 (Aug 7, 2020)

Why isn't Canon the ones providing this info?


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 7, 2020)

PN5X5 said:


> Why isn't Canon the ones providing this info?


Why would they? The work around involves using hardware from another manufacturer that they have no partnership with. 

I have a tune for my car that provides more horsepower and better engine response and I have never heard anything from BMW about it.


----------



## skp (Aug 7, 2020)

Here's an interesting observation. I was just on Adorama looking for a CF Express card reader and noticed these reviews for Lexar's CF Express reader. I wonder if Canon's CF Express card slot is using similar hardware.


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## tomislavmoze (Aug 7, 2020)

skp said:


> Here's an interesting observation. I was just on Adorama looking for a CF Express card reader and noticed these reviews for Lexar's CF Express reader. I wonder if Canon's CF Express card slot is using similar hardware.
> 
> View attachment 191973


I have Wise card reader and it is the same.


----------



## Otara (Aug 7, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> This Canon chart says that it can record 8K IPB 10 bit video to SD v90 or above card. Wouldn't this mean that you could *record 10 bit 8K without any CFexpress card* in the slot? I wonder if you record continuously for hours this way?



SD card has the same limits. Ive tried different cards, batteries, the cards have been very cool, none of these seem to change things much.

Either something inside is very hot that cant be cooled easily, they are very cautious in their cooling times, or its a bug.


----------



## SaharshD (Aug 8, 2020)

Pape said:


> Line skipping is more challenging for optic i believe ,softness may be from soft optic too? Nearly all RF lenses are soft with 45mpix sensor.
> Every RF lense makes max sharp with downsampled Hq4k


Bro are you kidding . You think RF lenses are soft for a 45 MP sensor .My Canon 35 L 2 , 85 1.4 , old 85 1.2L2 and 300 2.8 lens easily out resolve a 51Mp 5DSr. And you think latest RF lenses cant resolve a 45 MP sensor . 
I haven't read anything bad about any RF lens till now , except their very high Prices .


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 8, 2020)

tomislavmoze said:


> I tried that, puting card to the fridge till it cooled down, but it did not help.
> I guess it was just a bug since i could not replicate the situation and cooling the card did not help.


Damn

Multiple sensors then, any one which will push the overheat icon


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 8, 2020)

I think I read this via another forum member post, but it does make you wonder if Canon put it into a 5 series body to find out (real world) issues before it appears in a 1 series or a Cinema line series...


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 8, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> I think I read this via another forum member post, but it does make you wonder if Canon put it into a 5 series body to find out (real world) issues before it appears in a 1 series or a Cinema line series...


I’m sure they did.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 8, 2020)

SaharshD said:


> Bro are you kidding . You think RF lenses are soft for a 45 MP sensor .My Canon 35 L 2 , 85 1.4 , old 85 1.2L2 and 300 2.8 lens easily out resolve a 51Mp 5DSr. And you think latest RF lenses cant resolve a 45 MP sensor .
> I haven't read anything bad about any RF lens till now , except their very high Prices .


I was going to say the same. My RF 85mm f1.2 is the sharpest lens I have ever used, and it is also damn sharp on my R5. No complaints at all, can easily cover 45mp


----------



## Pape (Aug 8, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I was going to say the same. My RF 85mm f1.2 is the sharpest lens I have ever used, and it is also damn sharp on my R5. No complaints at all, can easily cover 45mp


i sayed nearly all RF lenses ,i bet sharpest ones can do perfect job.  I was thinking zoom lenses peoples mostly use.
Btw should be easy test if 24-105 f4 is perfect . just to take picture with 85mm f1,2 and 85mm from 24-105 with R5 and show 100% crops


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## Chris.Chapterten (Aug 8, 2020)

Pape said:


> i sayed nearly all RF lenses ,i bet sharpest ones can do perfect job.  I was thinking zoom lenses peoples mostly use.


The RF 70-200 2.8L will also resolve 45mp without an issue.. probably a few others as well. The RF 15-35 2.8 is meant to be quite sharp too, but I don't own that one


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 8, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> The RF 70-200 2.8L will also resolve 45mp without an issue.. probably a few others as well. The RF 15-35 2.8 is meant to be quite sharp too, but I don't own that one


During one of the BH Photo live chats with a Canon USA engineer they asked about resolving power of RF and EF glass and I he was pretty clear that it was not an issue pointing out the 50mp 5dr as an example.


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## Berowne (Aug 8, 2020)

@Resolution:  Experiments For Ultra High Resolution Camera Sensors 

45Mp FF sensors are nothing. 

As Roger points out, in the range of a potential 150MP-FF-Sensor we would realy need better glass. With such a thingy no current lens can outresolve the sensor. With a 150MP-Sensor only the Zeiss Otus and the best Sony/Sigma-Primes will give good results - only in the center, and only when stopped down.


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## tomri (Aug 8, 2020)

Honestly, with a camera that sells for more than 4300 euro, such tweaks and worries should not be necessary.....


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## Go Wild (Aug 8, 2020)

I am having a HUGE drawback....It seems like I can´t use my Shogun Inferno with the EOS R5...It´s not a compatible device. Now this isn´t a Canon´s fault but an Atomos issue. It seems that to use the Atomos you will need to have the Shogun 7 or the Ninja V. NOT HAPPY! Damnnn


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## lucuias (Aug 8, 2020)

Guys,I got an update from one of the canon staff that they had received email the new firmware will sort of fix the overheating issue with longer recording and faster recovery time.Finger cross,I still haven't place my pre order yet.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 8, 2020)

lucuias said:


> Guys,I got an update from one of the canon staff that they had received email the new firmware will sort of fix the overheating issue with longer recording and faster recovery time.Finger cross,I still haven't place my pre order yet.


Good news indeed. Do you have an estimated time on the fix availability? Thank you.


----------



## Respinder (Aug 8, 2020)

lucuias said:


> Guys,I got an update from one of the canon staff that they had received email the new firmware will sort of fix the overheating issue with longer recording and faster recovery time.Finger cross,I still haven't place my pre order yet.


Is this for real? Who did you talk to at Canon USA?


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 8, 2020)

Berowne said:


> @Resolution:  Experiments For Ultra High Resolution Camera Sensors
> 
> 45Mp FF sensors are nothing.
> 
> As Roger points out, in the range of a potential 150MP-FF-Sensor we would realy need better glass. With such a thingy no current lens can outresolve the sensor. With a 150MP-Sensor only the Zeiss Otus and the best Sony/Sigma-Primes will give good results - only in the center, and only when stopped down.


No that’s not what he said at all.


> _
> First, let me emphasize again that if we had a 150-megapixel camera and shot today’s lenses on it, the images would have more detail than that same lens on your current 36-megapixel camera. How much more? It’s hard to say. But remember you have to roughly quadruple megapixels to double resolution. If you’re shooting a 36-megapixel camera, then a 150-megapixel camera would about double your potential resolution. You’d notice the difference, especially if you crop the hell out of an image or print billboards or something._



Much higher resolution lenses will not realize close to potential sensor resolution so at best, using his rough rule of thumb, you’d end up with maybe another 30mp or so, or going from 70mp with current lenses to 100mp with new generation much more expensive lenses.

Mind you the entire idea of constantly moving forwards in this is, in my opinion, flawed. For movie/video use we intentionally use shutter speeds to blur each individual frame, 4kHQ and 8k demand higher shutter speeds to maintain the detail and have a distinct look far away from the ‘cinematic’ look so sought after by influencers, YouTube experts, and forum hobbits. For stills at ±50mp we already vastly outstrip the possible resolution of most output apart from people with the need to use extreme crops and whilst there is a user base with that requirement it is not the norm or close to it. I am a generalist professional photographer and sell prints up to 24” x 36” and I use 20mp. Sure I could use more resolution on occasions but I see little benefit 99% of the time for pros or amateurs or enthusiasts that warrants the expense of another new round of lenses and cameras, we passed the point of diminishing returns on mp a long time ago.


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## drama (Aug 8, 2020)

NoFilmSchool.com have done their tests: https://nofilmschool.com/testing-canon-r5-overheating

conclusion:

> 
_So, if your main workflow requires 4K DCI or 4K UHD 29.97/23.99fps 10-bit 4:2:2 with a Log gamma curve option, the R5 has you covered. Albeit there is a 29 minute 59-second record limit, but that can be immediately started again after being maxed out without overheating. If you're already in the Canon ecosystem, then the R5 may be worth the consideration. For now, the R5 should be looked at as a 4K mirrorless hybrid that has options for 8K, 4K 60p, 4K 120p, and oversampling, rather than an 8K workhorse video camera. The physics of the camera limit the latter. 

There are other plenty of other options out there if you do need 8K, longer 4K 60p record times, or longer 4K 120p Hopefully, this test will help you arrive on a decision. _


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## privatebydesign (Aug 8, 2020)

For anybody with a brain this quote "_For now, the R5 should be looked at as a 4K mirrorless hybrid that has options for 8K, 4K 60p, 4K 120p, and oversampling, rather than an 8K workhorse video camera. The physics of the camera limit the latter."_ should have been obvious from before release. Which makes me wonder about all this utter bullshit over the last week. ...."people are crazy"...


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 8, 2020)

*Regarding R5 Resolution and Lenses*

Resolution is stated as lpmm at a given contrast level, or contrast level at a given lpmm. Or even better, graphed as a MTF curve. *System resolution will always be weaker than the weakest component, but improving any component will improve the final result bringing it closer to that theoretical ceiling.* Therefore it's incorrect to say that a lens out resolves a sensor, or a sensor out resolves a lens. Likewise it's incorrect to say you need certain lenses to realize a sensor's resolution, or that certain lenses aren't sharp enough to make a higher resolution sensor worth it. That's just not how it works.

Bob Atkins illustrated this in his review of the Canon 5Ds. He shot the worst Canon EF lens he could find on a 6D and a 5Ds, and the result was substantially sharper/more detailed on the 5Ds. People who argue about whether or not this RF lens or that RF lens is 'up to the task' of a 45mp sensor miss the point. A cheap consumer zoom from the 1990s will produce better images on an R5 than an R6.

"Equivalent megapixels" is also a grossly inaccurate and misleading concept. I get that even people who know better use this idea and terminology to try to illustrate to the masses what different lenses might mean, but it only misleads. It's one of the things I hate most about how DxO presents the results of their tests.

Megapixels is not a statement of resolution, but of sensor sampling rate which sets a ceiling on the lpmm axis of an MTF curve (Nyquist). So it's incorrect to say that a 150mp sensor with X lens would be equivalent to a 100mp sensor. There are no perfect lenses such that you could create a 100mp sensor reference point. Even if you did, that reference point would be valid for one specific 100mp sensor only as the sensor stack impacts the MTF curve. And even a lens that would be considered a poor choice for a 150mp sensor might still be able to resolve more lpmm at MTF10 than the sensor can resolve due to Nyquist. So what point on the MTF curve would we use to compare systems assuming a reference system everyone could agree on?

It's so much easier to just plot the MTF curve and understand it.



privatebydesign said:


> For stills at ±50mp we already vastly outstrip the possible resolution of most output apart from people with the need to use extreme crops and whilst there is a user base with that requirement it is not the norm or close to it. I am a generalist professional photographer and sell prints up to 24” x 36” and I use 20mp.



20mp 3:2 at 36" results in a print with roughly 152 ppi. (Going from R6 pixel dimensions as different cameras can be "20mp" yet be slightly different in file pixel dimensions.) That's acceptable, but a person with healthy vision can absolutely discern the difference between that and the 224 ppi of the R5 or the 241 ppi of the 5Ds/sR at close viewing distance.

To what degree it matters, if at all, depends on the subject, artistic intent, viewing audience, etc. But for some subject matter I consider the difference to be substantial, to be the difference between a good print of the subject and a truly immersive one. And 36" is not the largest print one can make or people can buy.

You certainly do start to get into diminishing returns, and we've been there this past decade with digital photography. But I wouldn't mind seeing 75-100mp 35mm sensors and 200-300mp MF (true 645) sensors.


----------



## noms78 (Aug 9, 2020)

*****
why doesn't someone use an IR thermometer to measure the card (sd and cfe) temperature when the first overheat warning comes on?

if that temperature is consistent for say 4k60 and 4k30hq with either card then we can confirm the first overheat warning is triggered by a temperature sensor in the card slot or on the card itself.

When recording to ATOMOS without cards, the 4hr overheat warning must be triggered by a different temp sensor
*****


----------



## lucuias (Aug 9, 2020)

Respinder said:


> Is this for real? Who did you talk to at Canon USA?


A name is not something I can share now but they got an email from their management.


----------



## lucuias (Aug 9, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Good news indeed. Do you have an estimated time on the fix availability? Thank you.


I asked the same question,unfortunately there is no details on that.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 9, 2020)

lucuias said:


> Guys,I got an update from one of the canon staff that they had received email the new firmware will sort of fix the overheating issue with longer recording and faster recovery time.Finger cross,I still haven't place my pre order yet.



Some how I missed this, but that would be *awesome.* These cameras are so incredibly well designed and well performing. Mitigate this one flaw and there's nothing that can compete at their price points.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 9, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Some how I missed this, but that would be *awesome.* These cameras are so incredibly well designed and well performing. Mitigate this one flaw and there's nothing that can compete at their price points.



And that's why people are looking to trash them for any reason at all.


----------



## Chig (Aug 9, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> It would seem there should be a way in software (new menu item) to disable any use of installed memory cards that could accomplish the same outcome without having to physically remove the cards?


I don’t understand why physically having the cards inside would make any difference assuming the camera isn’t writing to the cards 
Also should be able to record to a smaller , cheaper 4K recorder without a monitor screen


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## dcm (Aug 9, 2020)

Chig said:


> I don’t understand why physically having the cards inside would make any difference assuming the camera isn’t writing to the cards
> Also should be able to record to a smaller , cheaper 4K recorder without a monitor screen



Just like a computer, the cards share a data bus with the processor, the internal memory buffer for continuous shooting, other cards, etc. so the card is always active. It doesn't turn off, it has to monitor the bus for any data directed its way and process it when that happens. This means a portion of the card is always active.


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## Colorado (Aug 9, 2020)

dcm said:


> Just like a computer, the cards share a data bus with the processor, the internal memory buffer for continuous shooting, other cards, etc. so the card is always active. It doesn't turn off, it has to monitor the bus for any data directed its way and process it when that happens. This means a portion of the card is always active.


Yes, this is a good explanation.


----------



## dcm (Aug 9, 2020)

Colorado said:


> Yes, this is a good explanation.



Thanks. I tried to keep it simple. Computer architecture is one of the courses I teach at the local university, but I prefer not to get into that much detail.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 9, 2020)

dcm said:


> Just like a computer, the cards share a data bus with the processor, the internal memory buffer for continuous shooting, other cards, etc. so the card is always active. It doesn't turn off, it has to monitor the bus for any data directed its way and process it when that happens. This means a portion of the card is always active.


Just to follow up on this, I did a bit of googling and came across this...

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2815914.pdf - which is the engineering spec for a Delkin CFexpress. If anyone doesn't want to read it (don't blame you!), there's three interesting points...

First - the heat sensor is on the CFExpress card for the Delkin - presume others do the same. And this will control when the speed is throttled ie Canon doesnt control it, but presume they get feedback from the card.

Second - Delkin supports APST, ASPM & L1.2 power management. Which essentially allows the card to go into a lower power mode when it is not active, but at the cost of delayed wake up time. Doubt it is more than a few seconds.

Third - the Delkin has different operating Power States, which consume less power while still operating (there is a light & heavy throttle). The default state has no throttling. Alas the paper doesnt state how much light throttle does - but if the cards can do 1000MBps write (on the higher capacity cards) then a mild throttle may not impact write performance (believe the highest 8K modes need 325MBps)

I could not easily find if Sony, Lexar and Sandisk support these - I guess one could email to find out, but equally importantly, one hopes that Canon doesn't support the lower power modes nor the power management in DryOS and therefore there could be some benefit gained from implementing them.

Or what we experience is with the power management active, in which case, another dead end, lol.


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## Berowne (Aug 9, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No that’s not what he said at all.
> 
> 
> Much higher resolution lenses will not realize close to potential sensor resolution so at best, using his rough rule of thumb, you’d end up with maybe another 30mp or so, or going from 70mp with current lenses to 100mp with new generation much more expensive lenses.
> ...



You are rigth. My formulation: _ With a 150MP-Sensor only the Zeiss Otus and the best Sony/Sigma-Primes will give good results _is at last misunderstandable. 

I would suggest an experiment: compare the amount of details visible in a certain motive with two different lenses - same focal lens but old and new design - and two different sensors - low and high number of pixels. Make a prediction: you will see more details when using the Sensor with more pixels, but only if you use the newer lens, not the one with the old design assuming that the old lens is "not so sharp".


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## Berowne (Aug 9, 2020)

Ok, here are the (more or less dissappointing) results. 

1153 = 70D & 85/[email protected]
1159 = 70D & 85/[email protected]
1604 = 6D & 85/[email protected]
1609 = 6d & 85/[email protected] 

One would expect to see no difference in Detail in case of the low-pixel 6D with different lenses, but see more details in the high-pixel 70D in case of the new 85mm lens stopped down.


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## SteveC (Aug 9, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Just to follow up on this, I did a bit of googling and came across this...
> 
> http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2815914.pdf - which is the engineering spec for a Delkin CFexpress. If anyone doesn't want to read it (don't blame you!), there's three interesting points...
> 
> ...



This brings up the interesting possibility that what we are seeing is NOT actually the camera overheating...but rather the card throttling back when _it_ overheats, to a point where the camera can no longer write to it fast enough for the mode it's in. The camera then has no choice but to terminate 8K/4KHQ/4K120. However, since the card is still able to support lower data rates, you can take pictures and shoot 1080p/4K normal quality all day.


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## dtaylor (Aug 9, 2020)

Berowne said:


> One would expect to see no difference in Detail in case of the low-pixel 6D with different lenses, but see more details in the high-pixel 70D in case of the new 85mm lens stopped down.



You would always expect a gain whether that gain was easily visible to the naked eye or not. Again, system resolution will always be lower than the weakest component, but improving any component brings you closer to the theoretical maximum (which would be the weakest component if all other components were perfect).

With all due respect to the fact that you are testing, which I applaud, your shots have other variables which interfere (namely framing). The Digital Picture's repository can be used to explore this question as the "low" resolution 1Ds mark III is (or was) one of his test cameras.

85 f/1.4L IS @ f/4 vs 85 f/1.8 @ f/1.8

85 f/1.4L IS @ f/2 vs 85 f/1.8 @ f/2


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## Stu_bert (Aug 9, 2020)

SteveC said:


> This brings up the interesting possibility that what we are seeing is NOT actually the camera overheating...but rather the card throttling back when _it_ overheats, to a point where the camera can no longer write to it fast enough for the mode it's in. The camera then has no choice but to terminate 8K/4KHQ/4K120. However, since the card is still able to support lower data rates, you can take pictures and shoot 1080p/4K normal quality all day.


Would be lovely if Canon just had to say - "eject your CFExpress and continue with a new card"..... but I wouldn't bet on it.... I think there is definitely that scenario possible, CF overheats before everything else, but I think a swap may give you a bit more time, not considerable / unlimited.


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## SteveC (Aug 9, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Would be lovely if Canon just had to say - "eject your CFExpress and continue with a new card"..... but I wouldn't bet on it.... I think there is definitely that scenario possible, CF overheats before everything else, but I think a swap may give you a bit more time, not considerable / unlimited.



Well, if this is the issue (and I'm not leaving out the possibility that the Digic processor could overheat too, just not as fast--see the thread on the disassembly), AND Canon wrote their firmware intelligently, then swapping cards should IMMEDIATELY reset the overheat "flag" in the camera. Has ANYONE tried this? (I own no CFE cards, so cannot.)


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 9, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Good news indeed. Do you have an estimated time on the fix availability? Thank you.



I have a relative that works for Canon an he got info on it too. Said the fix will be before the R6 starts to ship out. So all R5 units on the next shipment will already have it. And all R6 units will have a similar fix already there.


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## blackcoffee17 (Aug 9, 2020)

Maybe they can just optimise some thing in firmware and disable certain not needed features while shooting video. 
Or maybe just the temperature warning was set too low and the camera can easily run at few degrees higher without issues.

Maybe they can also develop a firmware which lowers the price of the R5.


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 9, 2020)

I really do think the thermal protection is a lot like the exposure triangle where each system impacts the other system. It is appears the cards are the weak link in the "Thermal QUAD".

My Made Up Thermal QUAD:

Cfexpress/SD card
Ram
Processor
Sensor
The cameras health status protocol is monitoring all of these systems for things like:

Availability -
Are there cards to write to?
Is there space on the cards?
Is there a flash attached.
Is wifi on?
etc...

Power levels -
What is the current voltage of the Battery
Does the attached flash have power to fire
etc..

Heat -
How hot are the cards?
How hot is the Ram?
How hot is the Processor?
How hot is the Sensor?

If the cards are the weak link in the QUAD even just having them in the camera close to the Ram and the Processor is enough to put the card in stage 1 of it's thermal warning. When you combine it with other systems hitting their sustained limits the Camera triggers self protection and powers off.

I am leary of the work around of removing the cards for 2 reasons. One I think there is a chance it will have a negative long terms impact on the camera. Two I think Canon will fix this work around and the internet will once again lose its collective mind.


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## usern4cr (Aug 9, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I have a relative that works for Canon an he got info on it too. Said the fix will be before the R6 starts to ship out. So all R5 units on the next shipment will already have it. And all R6 units will have a similar fix already there.


Did they say anything about those that have a R5 now?


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 9, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Did they say anything about those that have a R5 now?


I covered the answer for the R5 fix in this part: "the fix will be before the R6 starts to ship out". So we know it will be before the ship date of August 27th, just not exactly which date.


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## YuengLinger (Aug 9, 2020)

Can't the CFE cards be made so they don't overheat when being used within spec???


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## Otara (Aug 9, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Well, if this is the issue (and I'm not leaving out the possibility that the Digic processor could overheat too, just not as fast--see the thread on the disassembly), AND Canon wrote their firmware intelligently, then swapping cards should IMMEDIATELY reset the overheat "flag" in the camera. Has ANYONE tried this? (I own no CFE cards, so cannot.)



Ive taken out the card and cooled it, switched to the SD with it out for 4k 60/8k etc, nothing seems to directly impact the available shooting time in a big way. Either something else is still cooling down that cant be reached, or some kind of mandatory cooldown is involved, either by design or by accident.


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## SteveC (Aug 9, 2020)

Otara said:


> Ive taken out the card and cooled it, switched to the SD with it out for 4k 60/8k etc, nothing seems to directly impact the available shooting time in a big way. Either something else is still cooling down that cant be reached, or some kind of mandatory cooldown is involved, either by design or by accident.



That doesn't sound good.

However, to be absolutely sure, we'd need someone to be recording to one or the other (not both) and then swap that card for the identical type card. If I understood you correctly (and maybe I didn't) you had an SD card in there the whole time and fell back on it, and maybe it's heating up too.


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## Otara (Aug 9, 2020)

SteveC said:


> That doesn't sound good.
> 
> However, to be absolutely sure, we'd need someone to be recording to one or the other (not both) and then swap that card for the identical type card. If I understood you correctly (and maybe I didn't) you had an SD card in there the whole time and fell back on it, and maybe it's heating up too.



SD card was out, and the stated available time was identical. I also tried fanning the cards and the slot, no change in time and when I tested it it was very close to the claimed time. I was just fiddling rather than completely systematic testing so it is possible Ive got something wrong of course.

Someone else can try further, I feel pretty confident its not about the cards alone and the only time Im seeing overheating in practise is testing so Id rather play safe for now.


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## Jethro (Aug 9, 2020)

[QUOTE="Otara, post: 854774, member: 70343"

Someone else can try further, I feel pretty confident its not about the cards alone and the only time Im seeing overheating in practise is testing so Id rather play safe for now.
[/QUOTE]
Which may imply firmware is an issue too (maybe with mandatory cooldown times after some limit is exceeded).


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## dcm (Aug 9, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Can't the CFE cards be made so they don't overheat when being used within spec???



Since the CFE cards all seem to have built in thermal protection I'd say the answer is no using current technology. This is true for all electronic circuitry. The interface standard doesn't spec this, it's just a real world limitation that product designers/manufacturers must deal with. About all the chip makers can do is slow it down to generate less heat. 

It's up to the device using them to take extraordinary measures to mitigate the thermal issues like we see with dedicated video cameras, computers, GPUs, and the like. This is why the R5 can sustain the lower speed video options. The card's thermal behavior can vary by brand, size, and chip(s) so the camera has to adapt to the thermal behavior on the fly.


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## YuengLinger (Aug 10, 2020)

dcm said:


> Since the CFE cards all seem to have built in thermal protection I'd say the answer is no using current technology. This is true for all electronic circuitry. The interface standard doesn't spec this, it's just a real world limitation that product designers/manufacturers must deal with. About all the chip makers can do is slow it down to generate less heat.
> 
> It's up to the device using them to take extraordinary measures to mitigate the thermal issues like we see with dedicated video cameras, computers, GPUs, and the like. This is why the R5 can sustain the lower speed video options. The card's thermal behavior can vary by brand, size, and chip(s) so the camera has to adapt to the thermal behavior on the fly.



Sigh...
Thanks for your insights!


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## Osama (Aug 10, 2020)

Guys, I need your help.

Did Canon remove the overheating table from the r5 user manual? Can some double-check this, please? which page is it?


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 10, 2020)

Osama said:


> Guys, I need your help.
> 
> Did Canon remove the overheating table from the r5 user manual? Can some double-check this, please? which page is it?


this? overheating


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## AEWest (Aug 10, 2020)

Chromedbustop said:


> I think at best this solves one problem but creates another. Because while you now might be able to record longer video you've sacrificed the versatility of the camera. With the additional attachments it would be much more difficult to use it for photography. If you know you'll only need it for one or the other then it's fine, but switching back and forth between the two no longer becomes very practical. One of the big advantages of hybrid cameras is being able to quickly and easily switch between photo and video. Can't do that with a recorder attached (and all that comes with having one)
> 
> Still, it is a solution of sorts to the overheating problem.


In my mind, if you are filming for more than 30 min at a time, it is likely for weddings, interviews, etc where the camera would remain motionless and on a tripod.

In these instances I would want the the benefits of an external monitor - it also looks more professional to the paying customer!


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 10, 2020)

AEWest said:


> In my mind, if you are filming for more than 30 min at a time, it is likely for weddings, interviews, etc where the camera would remain motionless and on a tripod.
> 
> In these instances I would want the the benefits of an external monitor - it also looks more professional to the paying customer!



Poser


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## Osama (Aug 10, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> this? overheating



Yep, I remember seeing it in the official canon r5 manual. But it is no longer there.


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## adigoks (Aug 10, 2020)

another youtuber also run another interesting test





in his test
record internally give the same result as canon spesified
also there is some interesting thing in his test
1. when record externally , sd card in, lcd is on, its overheat much faster (15 min).
2. when record externally , card in, lcd is off, camera is overheat immediately after turning lcd on (after 2 hours of recording)
3. when record externally ,no card, lcd is off, it runs without overheat
4. when record externally, no card , lcd is on, its capped to 40 min .

it maybe similar case with fuji XT4 overheat in 4K 60p . it shoot much longer when the lcd is turned off .
it also gives overheat warning just immediately after lcd is turned back on.





need 1 more test which is record internally with lcd off to confirm this.


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## AEWest (Aug 10, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Poser


Marketing!


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## dboris (Aug 11, 2020)

adigoks said:


> another youtuber also run another interesting test
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for saving up the cost of watching the video.
So according to what's repported, to me it looks like a nice software limitation that checks the previously recorded files and their duration.

Did any of the reviewver tried swapping with empty CFE cards / SD cards once overheated ?
Maybe having a bunch of empty CFE cards is a solution to trick the camera?

What about :
rebooting the R5 + swapping to an empty card.

If someone tries that please update me.


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

Osama said:


> Yep, I remember seeing it in the official canon r5 manual. But it is no longer there.



I just had some back and forth arguing with some nut on another article's thread where he didn't believe us that the manual had mentioned overheating operation times. (Not even going to bother continuing replying with that cat) Well, that information is still there. The very last 2 bullets on page 902. It doesn't cover all modes, but 8K and 4K60.


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## Chig (Aug 12, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I really do think the thermal protection is a lot like the exposure triangle where each system impacts the other system. It is appears the cards are the weak link in the "Thermal QUAD".
> 
> My Made Up Thermal QUAD:
> 
> ...


Perhaps could use an external CF express recorder using the hdmi cable but the micro size is fragile and who wants cables if you can avoid them ?
Can the hot shoe connection be used for data transfer?


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## SteveC (Aug 12, 2020)

Chig said:


> Perhaps could use an external CF express recorder using the hdmi cable but the micro size is fragile and who wants cables if you can avoid them ?
> Can the hot shoe connection be used for data transfer?



I know it could on the M6 II because of the detachable viewfinder. I'd look for extra contacts in it on the R5 as compared with other cameras.


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## usern4cr (Aug 12, 2020)

Chig said:


> Perhaps could use an external CF express recorder using the hdmi cable but the micro size is fragile and who wants cables if you can avoid them ?
> Can the hot shoe connection be used for data transfer?


If you really want to use the HDMI or USB C connectors a lot then just plug in the cable holder that comes with the R5. I've done that and it's makes the cable connection quite safe & secure for both of those cables. It's easy to put on & off if you leave your cables in the cable holder and just screw/unscrew it from the side of the camera.


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