# More Hints of GH4 Competitor From Canon



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 11, 2015)

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We’ve <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2015/02/whats-next-from-canon-nab-and-beyond/" target="_blank">reported a couple of times over the last few months</a> that Canon will likely announce a GH4 competitor at NAB next month in Las Vegas. We haven’t been able to find out what sort of lens mount the camera would have, but that it would be an interchangeable lens camera that is capable of shooting 4K video.</p>
<p>EOSHD noticed a mention of such a product that we overlooked in yesterdays <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2015/03/interview-masaya-maeda-of-canon-japan/" target="_blank">posted interview with Masaya Maeda</a>.</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>How are you addressing the demand for compact, 4K-capable cameras like Sony’s a7S and Panasonic’s GH4?</strong></p>
<p>Naturally I can’t give you details of our future plans but we are fully aware that such requirements exist in the market. We’re currently in the process of investigating, mainly to satisfy the needs of news media, and we have every intention of addressing this need in future products.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.eoshd.com/2015/03/canon-exploring-4k-gh4-competitor/" target="_blank">Read the full story at EOSHD</a></p>
<p>You can see our previous rumors about a GH4 competitor from Canon <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2015/02/whats-next-from-canon-nab-and-beyond/" target="_blank">here</a> & <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/12/canon-to-target-the-gh4-with-new-dslr-type-cr2/" target="_blank">here</a>.</p>
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## StudentOfLight (Mar 11, 2015)

Wasn't he hinting more towards an interchangeable-lens ENG-camera rather than a compact-mirrorless body?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 11, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> Wasn't he hinting more towards an interchangeable-lens ENG-camera rather than a compact-mirrorless body?



I'm thinking SL1 size, or perhaps a bit smaller with an EVF.


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## jeffa4444 (Mar 11, 2015)

Be surprised if they launch something at NAB where the focus will more likely be the C300 MKII & the C500 MKII. 

There are dangers of launching a 4K mirrorless type DSLR at the same time of cannibalising sales from the higher priced cameras.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 11, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> Be surprised if they launch something at NAB where the focus will more likely be the C300 MKII & the C500 MKII.
> 
> There are dangers of launching a 4K mirrorless type DSLR at the same time of cannibalising sales from the higher priced cameras.



You're not going to cannibalize the sales of $10,000 and way up professional cinema cameras with what will be a near $1000 consumer/prosumer product. I think it's important for Canon to give a little something for everyone.


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## Bob Howland (Mar 11, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > Wasn't he hinting more towards an interchangeable-lens ENG-camera rather than a compact-mirrorless body?
> ...



But does it have to be mirrorless?? Canon could create a hybrid viewfinder.

Update: I disagree that the 1DX is THE camera for the news media. For general purpose news gathering, the 5D series seems to be used much more. Where the 1DX excels is in sports news gathering.


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## mkabi (Mar 11, 2015)

Just bring out a 7DC or a 5DC... 

No point in creating M3C... not enough lenses for the mirrorless and using an adapter is annoying...

SL1 also too small, suppose the people that can afford the cine lenses want small form factor...


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 11, 2015)

"We’re currently in the process of investigating [4k], *mainly to satisfy the needs of news media*,"



??? looking into 4k mainly for news media???


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## PureClassA (Mar 11, 2015)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> "We’re currently in the process of investigating [4k], *mainly to satisfy the needs of news media*,"
> 
> 
> 
> ??? looking into 4k mainly for news media???



ehhhhhh..... My reaction was similar as yours , but I'm not putting much stock directly into that verbatim. The 1DX is a journalism preferred camera, so unlocking 4k in it makes sense (via 1DX2). So would a 5DC. I think both of these are fairly likely to get announced this year, and if not a 5DC, then a 5D4 with 4k. But seeing as Canon seems to be travelling down the road of specialization, I'm lending more favor to a dedicated 5 body.

NAB will tell the tales. I don't see that show going by without some significant announcement from canon, and not just a C300 and C500 generation 2.... unless they are dropping their pants on the price structres of the 300 at least. Canon announcing their new entry point to 4k as still being $10000+ isn't going to excite anyone.

Frankly, I think opening the doors with a GH4 competitor is a mistake if by that, they mean sensor size. Canon really needs to make a FF A7S competitor. It may not get the same low-light ability, but put internal recording with a good codec and clean output for $3-4k in a rugged 5 series body and we have a winner. Global shutter would be important too. The A7s with metabones EF adapter is already about $3k and that's before glass. And Lord knows no Sony Alpha can hold a candle next to a Canon body for construction, ergonomics, and menu system.


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## Etienne (Mar 11, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > "We’re currently in the process of investigating [4k], *mainly to satisfy the needs of news media*,"
> ...



Canon is too slow for today's competitive market. Don't forget, Sony and Panasonic are not lounging around while Canon tries to catch up in these segments. By the time Canon answers the A7s, Sony will have an A7s II out with beefed-up body, improved ergonomics, sensor-based IS, and probably a global shutter as well. I'm getting a little tired waiting on Canon. The C100 mkII would have been awesome three years ago, but today it looks like too little, too late.


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## pwp (Mar 12, 2015)

If Canon does a GH4 competitor, it will have to be incredibly good and very smartly priced. All my video work now is done with GH4. It completely blows the doors off my 5DIII for video up to 1600 iso, which includes just about everything.

The GH4 was announced a year ago, and based on probable 2 year product cycles, a GH5 will likely emerge early 2016. Panasonic won't have been sitting on their hands. They're on the front foot at the moment with video shooters walking away from Canon and setting up with either GH4 or A7s. 

Panasonic have shown themselves to be light and lean, and pretty quick to respond to valid user feedback. The next model will be a stunner. Likewise if the the next generation A7s can manage internal 4K recording then wow...Canon would have to deliver something utterly extraordinary. Viva la compétition!

-pw


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## bf (Mar 12, 2015)

A 5D with 4K movie feature makes sense to me although it would not be a GH4 competitor.
A GH4 competitor resembles something in SL1 body type.


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## Bennymiata (Mar 12, 2015)

To keep the price competitve it might even end up being a fixed lens compact, with a good zoom lens, using a 1" sensor.


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## -1 (Mar 12, 2015)

Sensor size wise the M mount would put them between Sony and Panasonic while possible being small enought not to eat into the C series. Could be good competion to Blackmagick.


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## jeffa4444 (Mar 12, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > Be surprised if they launch something at NAB where the focus will more likely be the C300 MKII & the C500 MKII.
> ...


I really dont agree we run rental operations and know the affect these cameras can have from passed experiance, I also had a lenghty conversation with one of the largest resellers in Europe last week they would not agree either.


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## Etienne (Mar 12, 2015)

Bennymiata said:


> To keep the price competitve it might even end up being a fixed lens compact, with a good zoom lens, using a 1" sensor.



I hope not ... the 1" sensor is too small. APS-C as a minimum I hope.


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## gsealy (Mar 12, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > "We’re currently in the process of investigating [4k], *mainly to satisfy the needs of news media*,"
> ...



"put internal recording with a good codec and clean output "
I hope that they have means to support external recording such as with the Atomos. Internal recording for 4K can get really expensive and then the cards only hold a limited amount. So you have to fuss around changing cards after just a few minutes. Internal storage is fine for doing short run news gathering (which is the goal here), but it is not suited to long running video recording. 

It should be interesting. No doubt there will be a lot to talk about.


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## PureClassA (Mar 12, 2015)

Yes, if they have true clean HDMI out, but no internal 4k can be a big hindrance in times when you can't/don't want to bring extra gear beyond the camera itself. That's one of the biggest gripes about the A7s. It was a sacrifice necessitated by the small body size. One that shouldn't be necessary whatsoever with a pro body like the 5 series. You can strap at Atomos to a 5D3 now. So removing that ability on a dedicated cinema body in a NEW 5 series would be unprecedentedly ridiculous, even for Canon


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## mkabi (Mar 12, 2015)

bf said:


> A 5D with 4K movie feature makes sense to me although it would not be a GH4 competitor.
> A GH4 competitor resembles something in SL1 body type.



Correction. Canon has never said that they were going to release a Gh4 competitor, its only a rumor heard by a source from CR guy. Even in that interview, Maeda does not say that there is a direct competitor for either Gh4 or a7s.

With that said, anything released by Canon would only compete with Gh4 and/or NX1. First, because of internal 4K recording. Second, UHD is not Cinema 4K and last I heard a7s +atomos never did Cinema 4K.

SL1 isn't the same size as Gh4, more like the Gh4 is comparatively similar in size as the t5i (750D), but the Gh4 is more rugged and weather sealed.



Etienne said:


> Bennymiata said:
> 
> 
> > To keep the price competitve it might even end up being a fixed lens compact, with a good zoom lens, using a 1" sensor.
> ...



Yeah, 1" sensor isn't a competition for gh4,_ if_ thats what they are going to compete with.







May be a 1.5" sensor, but if they are going to compete with all the companies.... stick with APS-C or FF.


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## PureClassA (Mar 12, 2015)

No. A 1" sensor would be ridiculous. A real DSLR cinema-dedicated body should be FF. Period. Make 1:1 pixel ratio (8-9MP) and walk away. Even a crop at the same pixel density would be OK, but not as nice. I think most folks shooting video at this level (as opposed to true, dedicated hollywood grade cameras like Red or Arri with super expensive lenses to suit) would rather be able to use their nice L glass as is without bothering with crop factor. Sony figured this out with the A7s, and that's what makes it so much more usable in pro applications than a GH4 to me.

Even if Canon went the Sony route and made a 12MP sensor again like the 5D original, but with the modern upgrades of DPAF, global shutter, lower noise, and better pixel quality overall.... it would be a winner. You save the pro level features like XLRs with better preamps, 120+ FPS, more robust internal codecs, maybe ProRes, RAW output, etc... for the C300 and C500 MkIIs


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## StudentOfLight (Mar 12, 2015)

My guess is three new 4K-capable ENG cameras: 
XA30, Entry-level option
XF-200, Indie news/film
XF-400, Mainstream news


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## Etienne (Mar 12, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> My guess is three new 4K-capable ENG cameras:
> XA30, Entry-level option
> XF-200, Indie news/film
> XF-400, Mainstream news



XF-200 has been out for almost a year, but basically that's been their model line up for years now.


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## pwp (Mar 12, 2015)

Etienne said:


> Bennymiata said:
> 
> 
> > To keep the price competitive it might even end up being a fixed lens compact, with a good zoom lens, using a 1" sensor.
> ...


Assuming this rumor does have legs, APS-C would deliver an immediate point of advantage over the MFT GH4 sensor. This would trump the GH4's only real weak spot, modest high iso performance. 

A 1" sensor would match the GH4 at best.

-pw


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## pwp (Mar 12, 2015)

gsealy said:


> Internal recording for 4K can get really expensive and then the cards only hold a limited amount.


I wouldn't call the GH4 with internal 4K expensive. It's a bargain.
Interestingly on my GH4, the file size of 5 minutes of 4K is almost precisely the same as 5 minutes of 1080p on my 5D MkIII. 

-pw


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## Etienne (Mar 12, 2015)

pwp said:


> gsealy said:
> 
> 
> > Internal recording for 4K can get really expensive and then the cards only hold a limited amount.
> ...



File size is greatly affected by bit rate and other settings, like ALL-I, will greatly increase file size on the 5D3. I'm sure there are many settings on the GH4 that will drive file size up or down as well.


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## PureClassA (Mar 13, 2015)

Etienne said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > gsealy said:
> ...



Indeed. And if the GH4 is putting THAT much compression into it's internal codec that a resolution FOUR times greater than a 5D3 is being squashed to the same file size, that camera is leaving an enormous amount of information on the cutting room floor. If there isn't a better codec available internally than that, then a Shogun or 7Q+ is almost a total necessity for pro work with it, which makes it's proclaimed advantage over the A7s somewhat moot.


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## Etienne (Mar 13, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > pwp said:
> ...



Good point!
I think the A7s is a better choice either way.


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## PureClassA (Mar 13, 2015)

Etienne said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



I don't own either, but I really want an A7S strictly for video plus the Shogun. I've held off on buying one because at the rate Sony changes models, I expect to see an A7S II announced later this year, hoping it at least goes to global shutter. I can live without internal 4k given all the other major advantages it has over the GH4. That said, now with Canon specializing models, I want to see what they announce on a Cinema 5 body. Again, an A7s package with the necessary metabones for all my L glass is $3000. $5000 if I get a Shogun. If Canon makes 4K with internal recording for $3500-$4000, I'm going Canon. I could put off the Shogun, and I'd much rather have a native EF mount on a super rugged weather sealed body with the tracking ability of DPAF assuming the video performance is great. Body-Based IS (like the A7II) will come to the A7S II but it's never as effective as having IS built custom for each lens. The Black Magic Cinema 4k at $3000 is a HUGELY attractive option with ProRes and RAW ability built in with a native EF mount.... but oh the FPN they keep pretending isn't there. That's a total deal killer. If they can fix that issue, it would be a golden machine. Obviously the bottom line is no camera will ever be the most perfect device but as of right now, the A7S comes by far the closest.


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## Etienne (Mar 13, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> Etienne said:
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> > PureClassA said:
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You might be better off saving for the FS7, they've packed almost everything into that beast.


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## Tugela (Mar 14, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> No. A 1" sensor would be ridiculous. A real DSLR cinema-dedicated body should be FF. Period. Make 1:1 pixel ratio (8-9MP) and walk away. Even a crop at the same pixel density would be OK, but not as nice. I think most folks shooting video at this level (as opposed to true, dedicated hollywood grade cameras like Red or Arri with super expensive lenses to suit) would rather be able to use their nice L glass as is without bothering with crop factor. Sony figured this out with the A7s, and that's what makes it so much more usable in pro applications than a GH4 to me.
> 
> Even if Canon went the Sony route and made a 12MP sensor again like the 5D original, but with the modern upgrades of DPAF, global shutter, lower noise, and better pixel quality overall.... it would be a winner. You save the pro level features like XLRs with better preamps, 120+ FPS, more robust internal codecs, maybe ProRes, RAW output, etc... for the C300 and C500 MkIIs



Most people who are serious about MILC video shooting use the GH4 rather than the A7s though, so your hypothesis about FF being necessary is incorrect. Even most camcorder style cameras have much smaller sensors than FF.

Resolution on video is lower than stills, so having super expensive high performance stills glass is not necessary either. People who are serious about video will be using video centric glass anyway, not noisy lenses like L lens. L lenses are used because that is what people happen to have, not because they are the best tool for the job.


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## Tugela (Mar 14, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> My guess is three new 4K-capable ENG cameras:
> XA30, Entry-level option
> XF-200, Indie news/film
> XF-400, Mainstream news



More likely a "XA30" this year, with "XF" models being released the following year. The internal parts of the current XA and XF are the same, the only difference are the external bells and whistles, and some functions in firmware. That would fit with Canon's general strategy of doing incremental upgrades every year.

New 4K cameras at NAB IMO will probably be a "high" and "low" end (relatively speaking, both will cost $5K+) cinema-EOS cameras. I expect there will be a "XA30" and a "G40" (same camera, one with a handle, the other without, with price tags of $3K and $2K respectively). Perhaps a 1DX II (again, many $$$). 

That would be approximately four 4K cameras, and fit with some of the rumors we have been hearing.


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