# Macro Rails systems: Recommendations



## cayenne (Aug 23, 2016)

Hi all,

I'd posted last week a couple of threads on RRS ball heads and sticks. I'm about to order those.

But during those threads discussing about wanting to do macro shooting with them all, for now with my canon 100L macro and a set of Kenko tubes....it was stated that the Really Right Stuff macro rails left a little to be desired for some reason.

It was said it would be fine for the 100L alone, it night not work with other macro lens setups that well and it wasn't very precise.

Originally looking at:
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/B150-B-Macro-focusing-rail

Can someone give more insight than this on the RRS macro rails?

Other names were brought up.

I found this link, but not sure which one out the list would be the one to get...while I prefer bang for the buck, I don't mind spending a reasonable amount of $$ to try to get as good as I can right off to bat.

Which one of these might be a good one: ?
http://www.hejnarphotostore.com/category-s/115.htm

It appears all of these will fit on the arca swiss plate system I'm going to get with the RSS set up....?

I'd heard about Novoflex systems, but their website isn't the easiest to navigate around.

Any recommendations for which one of those to get and what the strong/weak points are?

These all seem to be in the under $400 range.

I saw the really nice computer controlled system by Cognisys: https://www.cognisys-inc.com/products/stackshot/stackshot.php

This looks really cool, but for shooting outdoors looks like it might be a bit clunky, and extra expense for batteries, etc.

I'm just starting out and may look for that to upgrade to in the future, but seems to be overkill and not quite practical for me at this time.

Anyway...comments pro/con on these systems? which models ? Any other brands and models that could be recommended.

I'm wanting to pull the trigger on it all by this weekend I think.


Thanks in advance,

cayenne


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## Mikehit (Aug 23, 2016)

> it was stated that the Really Right Stuff macro rails left a little to be desired for some reason.



In my (albeit limited) experience my first questions is what do you want to shoot macro photos of?

The problem with a macro rail, be it ratchet or screw adjustment, is the amount of play. If you are shooting at high magnification the DOF is very, very small so you need to adjust focus by a fraction of a millimetre. But if the rail is not highly engineered, when you tweak the ratchet screw all it does is play within the 'slack' in the system and it is hard to get such fine adjustment. This is when you need to go for the more expensive high-engineered set-ups. 

If you are shooting (as I do) larger things like mosses and big insects and rarely go larger than 1:1 then this is less of an issue. I am at that point that where I am wondering which direction I want to go and if I decide to take it more seriously would go for the full-fat Cognysis Stackshot but that is serious money. 

One option is the respected Helicon Focus which works by refocussing the lens rather than moving the camera


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2016)

cayenne said:


> It was said it would be fine for the 100L alone, it night not work with other macro lens setups that well and it wasn't very precise.



I guess I'd disagree that the RRS rails aren't very precise. Also, I'll point out that the comment about needing to 'unlock' the RRS rails between shots was debatable (although the manual recommends it, I haven't had a need). 

The only weakness I find with the RRS rails is with 3-5x or higher mag, with the rig at a steep angle and a _heavy_ load. By heavy, I mean my setup of 1D X, lens, multiple flash brackets (I use 3), and two flashes (MT-24 and a 600EX). What I find is that the fine adjustment knob is hard to turn, and when it does the rig 'jumps'. It's a small enough jump that it's not a problem even at 2x. In fact, I suspect the problem could be solved with a little machine oil on the threads, but I'm reluctant to do so because I use the rail in the field (lubricant can attach dirt/dust; but also, lube may smoothen the loaded movement, but might also necessitate locking between shots). 

I have tried a few other rails (Velbon, Manfrotto, a small Novoflex, and Kirk), only the Kirk came close. There could be better engineered rails out there, but I haven't found one.


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## lion rock (Aug 24, 2016)

Unfortunately, I have no experience with commercial rail, though I lusted after Cognisys Stackshot system, but for its cost.
I dabbled into one a couple of years ago, but hadn't instrumented it, (first picture), yet. I used an anti-backlash (bronze piece in the middle of the stage) setup to give me minimum slack. I used it to make a series of macro shots for stacking. Turned out fairly good.
Now, I'm working on a smaller unit, (second picture), capable of moving just over 2.5 inches. It also has an anti-backlash nut to reduce slack. Driven with a stepper motor and an Arduino front end and a stepper driver capable of moving 8 micro steps per step. For each inch of movement, sixteen thousand micro steps are required. I don't think I can trust that resolution, but, I am confident of a hundredth of an inch without problem. So far, the programming is nearly completed, a bit of polishing of the code, some commenting and I think it'll do. The code also includes possible pano drive for a second stepper turning a stage at a given angle. And another part of the code will control the camera for intervalometer mode. 
The real test comes when I can photograph a series to assemble a stacked photo. 

-r
PS., the photos were taken with an iPad, excuse the quality. Thanks.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 24, 2016)

I've toyed with adapting a vintage Minolta auto Bellows unit to Canon. I just need to adapt the camera end to mount on my DSLR. I can use a Minolta lens on the other end of the bellows.


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## kirispupis (Aug 24, 2016)

I've owned a generic macro rail in the past, and I now own two of the RRS ones and the original Cognisys Stackshot. To be honest I don't do a tremendous amount of work that requires rails now, but I still do use them from time to time.

The RRS rails are a huge step above the generic ones and for most purposes will do the trick. I have two of them in order to have x+y movement. (as an aside, I'd love it if someone came out with an arcs-swiss z-adjustment sometime) They are quite precise - good enough for my MP-E 65.

The Cognisys Stackshot is a lot more precise than the RRS rails and of course is automated. This makes stacking much easier - especially if you hook a laptop up with Zerene Stacker. As I stated for strictly precision the RRS rails will work fine up to an MP-E 65. Past 5x you really need something like the Stackshot. For instance the Cognisys is absolutely necessary when using my Mitutoyo 20x.


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## cayenne (Aug 24, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > It was said it would be fine for the 100L alone, it night not work with other macro lens setups that well and it wasn't very precise.
> ...



Thank you to you and everyone else on the thread.

Hmm..ok, maybe I got the wrong impression of the RRS macro rail. I'll only be starting out with the 100L canon lens, so perhaps I should just get the RRS one with my larger order coming up.

Out of curiosity would this:

https://www.kirkphoto.com/close-up-macro/focusing-rail-fr-2.html

...be the Kirk macro rails set up you'd say was on par with the RRS one?

Could you compare/contrast the two or are they about the same in your opinion?

I suppose if I ever get to the level of using that "monster" magnifier you're using, I would then consider getting the automated rails system to go with it

Ok..well, I think I may have just about made up my mind and will get the RRS one.

OH..one other question, I started noticing some of these rails packages had dual axis capability, I'd not thought of that. Is that very useful. I was only thinking originally of forwards and backwards to help overcome the shallow depth of field...

What do you focus left and right for? Is this only for making a larger image?

If so, I think I'll just hold off on that and see how far I get into macro photography.

Again, thank you to ALL for the great info and advice!!

C


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## chauncey (Aug 24, 2016)

I could never understand the need for rails used on Canon products as the Canon Utility Software
has the ability to do LV photo-stacking automatically.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2016)

cayenne said:


> Out of curiosity would this:
> 
> https://www.kirkphoto.com/close-up-macro/focusing-rail-fr-2.html
> 
> ...



In general, there's very little difference between Kirk and RRS in terms of engineering quality - both are excellent. Also in general, RRS often has a slight edge in design and they offer more dedicated/custom plates, for example. In the case of their macro rails, the biggest design difference is that the Kirk clamp can be rotated 90° (via a hex key bolt) so that you can mount a collared lens on the rail (since the plate will be on the lens axis, vs. perpendicular to the lens axis for a camera plate). The RRS plate is fixed in orientation and accepts only camera plates – the RRS solution is to bundle an adapter plate (B2-LMT Lens mount) with a clamp oriented at 90°, at extra cost. At first glance, that seems an advantage to Kirk...but the RRS adapter adds something besides a 90° orientation change...it adds height. If using a gripped body, the RRS adapter allows the camera to clear the rails with advancement and for rotating the camera, which the lower clamp height on the Kirk would preclude with a collared lens and a large body.




cayenne said:


> OH..one other question, I started noticing some of these rails packages had dual axis capability, I'd not thought of that. Is that very useful. I was only thinking originally of forwards and backwards to help overcome the shallow depth of field...
> 
> What do you focus left and right for? Is this only for making a larger image?



The XY rail setup can be used for a increasing the FoV, but also just for find adjustment of positioning (to 'get a better view' of the subject) without the coarse effect of moving the whole rig. Personally, I have only the one rail, so side-to-side, and I haven't missed it. 

With either the Kirk or the RRS rails, you can simply buy a second rail and clamp it onto the first one for an XY setup. RRS sells a pair of the B-150B rails as the 'ultimate pkg' and the second one is less than half-price which isn't a bad deal at all (in fact, I occasionally see a B-150B pop up on Craigslist and I often suspect someone may have bought the pair specifically to sell one of them).


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2016)

chauncey said:


> I could never understand the need for rails used on Canon products as the Canon Utility Software
> has the ability to do LV photo-stacking automatically.



How well does that capability handle long focus stacks (where focus breathing results in a significant FoV change)?

Do you find that option works well with the MP-E 65?


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## chauncey (Aug 24, 2016)

My weapon of choice is a tripod mounted 180 macro mounted on a 1Ds3...have never had any 
focus breathing, whatever that is.

If you do any orchids you would realize the the DOF here is several inches.


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## danski0224 (Aug 24, 2016)

I'd recommend the Henjar Photo rails with the micrometer adjustment over the RRS macro rails any day of the week. 

The RRS rails have a lot of slop (gear lash) if you decide to change directions. If you adjust in one direction only, the slop (gear lash) doesn't come into play. 

If you decide to go with the RRS product, definitely run it through the paces during the return window. 

The RRS rails are well made, but for the money, the gear lash issue is a downer for me.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2016)

chauncey said:


> have never had any
> focus breathing, whatever that is.
> 
> If you do any orchids



Nice shot, but it's more of a 'close up', as opposed to a 1:1 true macro. At 1:1, your 180mm lens is giving you the equivalent framing of a ~131mm lens focused at infinity – that change in framing/magnification is called focus breathing. 

Plus, as I implied – using the lens' AF for focus stacking only works if the lens has AF. A focus rail overcomes both problems.


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## chauncey (Aug 24, 2016)

> At 1:1, your 180mm lens is giving you the equivalent framing of a ~131mm lens focused at infinity – that change in framing/magnification is called focus breathing.


I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what you're saying regarding focus breathing.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2016)

chauncey said:


> > At 1:1, your 180mm lens is giving you the equivalent framing of a ~131mm lens focused at infinity – that change in framing/magnification is called focus breathing.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what you're saying regarding focus breathing.



http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/technical/focus_breathing_focal_length_changes.html


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## cayenne (Aug 24, 2016)

danski0224 said:


> I'd recommend the Henjar Photo rails with the micrometer adjustment over the RRS macro rails any day of the week.
> 
> The RRS rails have a lot of slop (gear lash) if you decide to change directions. If you adjust in one direction only, the slop (gear lash) doesn't come into play.
> 
> ...



Is this the one you are recommending:
http://www.hejnarphotostore.com/product-p/ms4-1.htm

Thanks in advance!!

cayenne


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## danski0224 (Aug 25, 2016)

chauncey said:


> I could never understand the need for rails used on Canon products as the Canon Utility Software
> has the ability to do LV photo-stacking automatically.



If the stack focus position is altered by changing focus on the lens, then the magnification changes.

Look at the focus distance window on the macro lens- there is only 1 position where you get 1:1. If the focus ring is turned, the magnification changes.

The only way to maintain 1:1 (or any other framing) is to move the camera back and forth to focus on different parts/slices of the object.

If the focus position is changed with the lens AF or manual focus, the field of view changes.

The same thing happens with non-cinema lenses, but the effect is really easy to see with a macro lens at 1:1.


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## danski0224 (Aug 25, 2016)

cayenne said:


> Is this the one you are recommending:
> http://www.hejnarphotostore.com/product-p/ms4-1.htm
> 
> Thanks in advance!!
> ...



That's one of the 2 micrometer versions without a digital readout. The only difference is one is 25mm of travel and the other is 50mm of travel.

He also has fine precision screw type rails without the micrometer for a bit less. Unlike the RRS version, the Henjar rail has guide rods along the travel length. Even these would be a huge step up because of the guide rods. The scale on the micrometer is a bonus.

The guide rods prevent twisting of the camera clamp platform. The RRS rails have plenty of twist, in addition to the gear lash. There is a tightening knob on the side that eliminates the twist, but what you see in the viewfinder changes with the screw lash and tightening the knob on the side to lock everything down. You probably won't see it much with a 100mm macro at 1:1, but you will see it with the MP-E lens or fiddling with extension tubes trying to go over 1:1.

Not all of those "precision oriented" Hejnar products has a quick release on the screw for fast adjustment.

Hejnar has macro rails comparable in construction to the RRS rails: quick release for fast adjustment and no guide rods. 

There are "vintage" macro rails and bellows rails with guide rods that may be a bit more economical than buying something off the shelf, if that's more your speed and if you want to spend the time looking for them.


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## Zeidora (Aug 28, 2016)

Danski0224: thanks for pointing to the Hejnar products. I have a Cognisys system and some no-name (Adorama???) x/y platform. While a quite a fan of RRS, the macro-rail never quite convinced me. Looking seriously at the Hejnar!


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## cayenne (Aug 29, 2016)

danski0224 said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the one you are recommending:
> ...


Ok, I"m looking at this one:

http://www.hejnarphotostore.com/product-p/ms4-2.htm

It says _" slider is equipped with quick release clamp"_ But I believe this refers to the clamp for the arca style plate or L-bracket.

I can't tell if there is a mechanism to release from the screw for faster adjustments....

Can you tell if this one has that or not?

I think I'm gonna get all RRS sticks and ball head, and L-Bracket, but I think I'll go for the Hejnar macro rails....just trying to figure best one to get to last me awhile.....

C
That's one of the 2 micrometer versions without a digital readout. The only difference is one is 25mm of travel and the other is 50mm of travel.

He also has fine precision screw type rails without the micrometer for a bit less. Unlike the RRS version, the Henjar rail has guide rods along the travel length. Even these would be a huge step up because of the guide rods. The scale on the micrometer is a bonus.

The guide rods prevent twisting of the camera clamp platform. The RRS rails have plenty of twist, in addition to the gear lash. There is a tightening knob on the side that eliminates the twist, but what you see in the viewfinder changes with the screw lash and tightening the knob on the side to lock everything down. You probably won't see it much with a 100mm macro at 1:1, but you will see it with the MP-E lens or fiddling with extension tubes trying to go over 1:1.

Not all of those "precision oriented" Hejnar products has a quick release on the screw for fast adjustment.

Hejnar has macro rails comparable in construction to the RRS rails: quick release for fast adjustment and no guide rods. 

There are "vintage" macro rails and bellows rails with guide rods that may be a bit more economical than buying something off the shelf, if that's more your speed and if you want to spend the time looking for them.


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## cayenne (Aug 30, 2016)

Oops...corrected post above ^^^^^ to not be ONE big quote....

Thanks!

C


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## danski0224 (Aug 31, 2016)

cayenne said:


> Ok, I"m looking at this one:
> 
> http://www.hejnarphotostore.com/product-p/ms4-2.htm
> 
> ...



As far as I can tell, none of the macro rails with the micrometer or the *precision* screw have a quick release for fast adjustment. It would be best to defer to the manufacturer for specifics, but no mention of a quick release for adjustments is made. 

Just a guess, but a quick release would seem to negate the benefits of a nice solid adjustment system.

You will have to "get it close" on the tripod head (or atop a slide with a quick release and an additional set of clamps), and then dial it in from there.

It would take a while to manually move through the entire 25mm or 50mm of travel, stop to stop... and a whole crapload of exposures if you really needed to do that.


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## cayenne (Aug 31, 2016)

danski0224 said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I"m looking at this one:
> ...



Thank you for all the replies!!

Ok, I think I've found the one that would be the best of all worlds to me starting out.

I think this one: http://www.hejnarphotostore.com/product-p/ms5p_8.htm

It has the guide rails on the sides which I like. And it appears to have a quick release mechanism off the screw for quick large adjustments.....and is really still in the ballpark of the RRS one I was looking at....

Does this one look like a good all around, starting out in macro photography but allowing for growth with other lenses and tubes, etc?

Thank you all again in advance!! I think I've almost narrowed it down to this choice.


cayenne


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## danski0224 (Sep 1, 2016)

Looks good from here


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