# Are There Any More DSLRs Coming in 2018?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 22, 2018)

```
Are there any more DSLRs coming in 2018?</p>
<p>We’re getting this question a lot, as a lot of people would love to see new EOS 7D and EOS 5DS series cameras coming to market.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, we don’t have even a hint of another DSLR coming in 2018. Not even a follow-up to the EOS 80D.</p>
<p>This may change over the coming months as we approach Photokina in September, but the current roadmap that we have doesn’t show another camera of significance coming. All we know for sure camera wise, is that there will be one G series PowerShot announced in 2018.</p>
<p>If this changes, we’ll obviously let you know.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## BeenThere (Mar 22, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> Are there any more DSLRs coming in 2018?</p>
> <p>We’re getting this question a lot, as a lot of people would love to see new EOS 7D and EOS 5DS series cameras coming to market.</p>
> <p>Unfortunately, we don’t have even a hint of another DSLR coming in 2018. Not even a follow-up to the EOS 80D.</p>
> <p>This may change over the coming months as we approach Photokina in September, but the current roadmap that we have doesn’t show another camera of significance coming. All we know for sure camera wise, is that there will be one G series PowerShot announced in 2018.</p>
> ...


Could just come out of the blue with little warning. It is about time for upgrades to both the 7D II and 5Dsr.


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## Hector1970 (Mar 22, 2018)

I've both a 7DII and 5DSR so maybe its a good thing they are not coming out in 2018.
I never liked the 7DII, the 5DSR has grown on me - its a good camera in ideal conditions.
The 7DII could have been better when it came out.
I think it would have been a better camera with a less dense sensor.
I'm surprised Canon aren't bringing out something, a new high end camera creates a bit of freshness in the brand.
The World Cup is this summer so I was expecting a 1DX III to coincide with it.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 22, 2018)

I've been wanting a 5DSR II for a while as I was making some decent sized prints, but the truth is my business is changing under me and it might well be that the 5D MkIV with C-Log would be a better crossover option with the emphasis on stills but more than a passing nod to video.


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## ahsanford (Mar 22, 2018)

Not surprised at all based on prior estimates.

I guess the 7D3 is not being rushed forward, which would imply the D500 is not stealing any significant share from Canon. 

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I guess the 7D3 is not being rushed forward, which would imply the D500 is not stealing any significant share from Canon.



That's nonsense, don't you read the Internet? The D500 has clearly clobbered 7DII sales, just as the a7III is now clobbering sales of all Canon FF dSLRs. Canon is *******. Once again, I refer you to the Internet. 

 ;D :-X


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## AvTvM (Mar 22, 2018)

yes, more mirrorslappers is exactly what the world needs and what the market wants! Big bucks market research of infallible Canon Corp clearly proves it! 












https://petapixel.com/2018/03/14/death-dslrs-near/


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## jolyonralph (Mar 22, 2018)

I was speaking with a Canon ambassador who was totally convinced the 7D III would be announced at Photokina.

[Edit: I should point out that they are NOT told information about release dates in advance so this isn't anything more than his speculation.]

Don't expect a 1DX III before 2020 though.


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## -1 (Mar 22, 2018)

Mirrorless is getting hotter by the minute and Photokina is up soon. Could be that the long awaited paradigm shift from mirror to mirrorless IS the agenda for both Nikon and Canon...


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## privatebydesign (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Not surprised at all based on prior estimates.
> 
> I guess the 7D3 is not being rushed forward, which would imply the D500 is not stealing any significant share from Canon.
> 
> - A



Anecdotally the D500 and 200-500 are wiping the floor with the 7D MkII and 100-400 MkII, go to a very popular birding spot like Gatorland and the black is besting the white in that market by a large margin, along with the third party 150-600's. However the 7D MkII and 400 DO MkII along with RRS tripods are still there in abundance, obviously a different market segment though, I have seen half a dozen 400DO MkII's next to each other and not a Nikon in sight, were Nikon to make a 400DO equivalent I am pretty sure it would make a difference to the body sales. Very few 1DX MkII's and D5's that I can see, but Florida has, generally, good light so the crop isn't as difficult to mitigate.

But as always my observations are an incredibly small market sample (though I'd like to know how many 400 DO MkII's are actually out there) and we are always in danger of extrapolating too much importance from our own experiences. I'm pretty sure Canon have a handle on their and Nikon's sales numbers


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## privatebydesign (Mar 22, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> I was speaking with a Canon ambassador who was totally convinced the 7D III would be announced at Photokina.
> 
> [Edit: I should point out that they are NOT told information about release dates in advance so this isn't anything more than his speculation.]
> 
> Don't expect a 1DX III before 2020 though.



The 1DX MkIII will be used during the Tokyo 2020 Olympics.


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## Chaitanya (Mar 22, 2018)

Out of curiosity is the 80D on its way out? last weekend while shopping for few random accessories I noticed 80D price in India has fallen a lot(was 95995INR when I got it 6 months back now its 81995INR for the 18-135mm Kit). I dont expect Canon will update this camera anytime soons as there are much older DSLRs like 7D 2 and 5DS family that needs updating but still a significant drop in price for a camera.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 22, 2018)

AvTvM said:


> yes, more mirrorslappers is exactly what the world needs and what the market wants! Big bucks market research of infallible Canon Corp clearly proves it!



Do you even understand the graphs you posted? Panderpixel's editorialization aside, what the data actually show is that MILC sales are still basically flat, and that the decline in dSLR shipments is leveling off...and doing so at a level that's well above MILC unit shipments.


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## ahsanford (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Not surprised at all based on prior estimates.



Chaitanya, see my link above. 90D projection is in there, too. Since the 60D, the X0D line has been on a steady 3 year refresh cycle. That means we should see the 90D next year. It could even come out before the 7D3.

I know this offends some folks' sensibilities that the 7D3 must lead the line with a great sensor and then other lines get to enjoy it, but Canon has shown how impractical that is when you line-leader 7D platform is on such a slow refresh boat. Consider: the 70D got DPAF before the 7D line did, the 80D was the first crop rig to get on-chip ADC and the 7D still doesn't have it, the 80D has more resolution, etc.

I'm not for a moment saying the 80D is a better camera than the 7D2, but the 1DX2 --> 5D4 --> 6D2 cadence of releases and trickle down of tech/features only really works if they are on the same refresh timing schedule. The 7D line is not on the same refresh cycle of the rest of the crop portfolio, so these disconnects in feature set are understandable.

- A


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## ashmadux (Mar 22, 2018)

Well there's one thing that's for sure- canons lineup is beset by cobwebs at this point. The 7d2 was a stinker upon release, and its been crickets ever since. The 6d2...oh man, don't get me started. 

They dont even know what to do with the rebels anymore, because the tech is already there to make them fly past even the 80d. And the 5ds/r no longer needs to be two models.

I do like where the M series is going, but other than the 1/5d series, the whole midrange is old and stinking up the joint *80 notwithstanding, but its old).

Cmon canon, wtf already


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## ashmadux (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Not surprised at all based on prior estimates.
> ...




I would much rather have an 80d than the 7d2....that is one canon body i wouldn't want any part of. The tech was old even when it launched, and that was forever ago...no touch screen, no swivel on that great built body....what a waste. Yuck.


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## ahsanford (Mar 22, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Panderpixel's editorialization aside, what the data actually show is that MILC sales are still basically flat, and that the decline in dSLR shipments is leveling off...and doing so at a level that's well above MILC unit shipments.



That's because Canon and Nikon would like to keep printing money. I've said a number of times here that there's only so much penetration mirorrless can have until Canon and Nikon deem it the future and offer mirrorless versions of their highest volume ILCs. That plot flips from 70-30 SLR to 70-30 mirrorless in record time once the two companies decide to do that. 

...but that's still going to be a while given that we presume SLRs are still fantastic cash cows for them.

- A


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## privatebydesign (Mar 22, 2018)

AvTvM said:


> yes, more mirrorslappers is exactly what the world needs and what the market wants! Big bucks market research of infallible Canon Corp clearly proves it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That. Is. Hilarious.

Your 'evidence' for mirror slapper extinction is illustrating a near 25% decline in mirrorless sales :

Surely, given this world of alternative facts, you can find something better than that to illustrate the 'dominance' of your preferred form factor?


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## ahsanford (Mar 22, 2018)

ashmadux said:


> I would much rather have an 80d than the 7d2....that is one canon body i wouldn't want any part of. The tech was old even when it launched, and that was forever ago...no touch screen, no swivel on that great built body....what a waste. Yuck.



7D2 = far better build quality, better AF, joystick, better burst, larger buffer, and some here would say better high ISO files, dual cards, interchangeable focusing screens for manual glass, GPS

80D = better low ISO files, tilty-flippy + touch --> better for video, more f/8 AF points for T/C use, wifi

If you're hung up on base ISO performance, have a tilty-flippy or shoot video, you get the 80D. If you need a warhorse, will-not-die-on-you rig without having to move to FF and buy the longest superwhites, the 7D2 is the best choice.

I see those two cameras as being aimed at completely different people, so it makes sense to offer both. The fact that Canon isn't rushing out a 7D3 this year would imply the 7D2 is a consistent money maker for them.

- A


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## ashmadux (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > I would much rather have an 80d than the 7d2....that is one canon body i wouldn't want any part of. The tech was old even when it launched, and that was forever ago...no touch screen, no swivel on that great built body....what a waste. Yuck.
> ...



Yes they both surely have differentiating features for different markets. I'm speaking only for myself- I loved the original 7d, and the 7d2 seemed like how the 6d2 arrived. I really, really don't like that sensor, that's the deal killer for me. Initial tests were abysmal, and after that,all the other features didn't matter (again, to me).

"The fact that Canon isn't rushing out a 7D3 this year would imply the 7D2 is a consistent money maker for them."

No way to know that, this is the company that prefers to update their DSLR's 3-4 years apart. Could be their internal struggle of how to hobble it to satisfy market segmentation. Could be just par for course. Who knows.

Ultimately, as long as canon enjoys such a large marketshare, there's no rush for them, and that's exactly why Sony is so badly needed right now. I'm a canon guy and they are making me ...well, 'consumer mad'.


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## Chaitanya (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ashmadux said:
> 
> 
> > I would much rather have an 80d than the 7d2....that is one canon body i wouldn't want any part of. The tech was old even when it launched, and that was forever ago...no touch screen, no swivel on that great built body....what a waste. Yuck.
> ...


Sony and Fuji have shown even on small bodies its possible to put joystick and 8 way controller alongside each other. So I really dont understand Canon's decision to remove joystick from X0D. So far that 8way D-pad is the thing I hate on 80D on what otherwise is a good camera. In past dropping prices were a good indicator of new camera incoming but it doesnt seem to be the case anymore. 
I still find 7D very attractive due to ruggedness but it's just too heavy for long himalayan treks and much rather have 80d as its lighter and serves well for what I do. 


In general Canon used to the one with a lot of firsts with technology but now they have gone on crippling spree with their upgrades. Its quite frustrating to see that attitude from what once was a pioneer of DSLRs.


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## ahsanford (Mar 22, 2018)

ashmadux said:


> No way to know that, this is the company that prefers to update their DSLR's 3-4 years apart. Could be their internal struggle of how to hobble it to satisfy market segmentation. Could be just par for course. Who knows.



The 7D line appears to be a _5_ year animal, actually.

If you believe in Canon nerfing / deliberately leaving things out its products to protect higher-value item sales -- and I tend to with a shrug (that's business) -- the only 'hobbling' Canon might do on the 7D3:


Leave out 4K: pretty unthinkable in 2019 on a class-leading rig

Leave out on-chip ADC: _anything's possible after the 6D2 _ : but my money's on it being in there. If the 5D4 and 1DX2 both got it, it's not like it will hurt high ISO performance. I say it's in.

Leave out a tilty-flippy: still possible. I think all cameras need a tilty-flippy, but Canon may be stubborn here.
Leave out core system tech that other systems have, like IBIS: that's not nerfing, that's an active strategy Canon has to avoid that sort of tech. I just don't see that as Canon holding something back nearly so much as not wanting to develop/implement it. Big difference.
Leave out a big bump to resolution: Possible, though this camp of shooter is much less resolution obsessed, so I'm not sure how you'd argue this is nerfing. Even the D500 with all it's onboard horsepower is sitting at just 20 MP.
Leave out a big bump to fps: Leave out is a strong term, as this isn't a binary have/have not situation. Canon will improve here. I doubt it would jump to 14-16 fps like the 1-series, but a step up to 12 fps seems possible, reasonable, etc.
Leave out touchscreen: zero chance.
Leave out a big expansion to the number of f/8 AF points (only has 5? today): zero chance.

- A


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## Talys (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Leave out a big bump to resolution: Possible, though this camp of shooter is much less resolution obsessed, so I'm not sure how you'd argue this is nerfing. Even the D500 with all it's onboard horsepower is sitting at just 20 MP.



Increasing megapixels also decreases high ISO performance, so I'd argue it's not necessarily a good thing. Since you'll often have to hit ISO 800+, I would _prefer_ a camera that had the same quality of output as a full frame, at the same type of pixel densities as a full frame, or as high as they could push it without impacting mid/higher ISO performance -- but at an optical APSC crop.

The reality is, even with full sun, and even with a big expensive lens, you never get as good ISO as you'd want if you have to shoot at 1/2500 - 1/4000.



ahsanford said:


> Leave out a big bump to fps: Leave out is a strong term--I doubt it would jump to 14-16 fps like the 1-series, but a step up to 12 fps seems possible, reasonable, etc.



Hola, you are optimistic my friend  Certainly possible, and that would be pretty sweet. Becomes slightly more likely if the megapixels are kept down.

There is a question of which storage card option it uses, too, as the fps bumps up.




ahsanford said:


> Leave out a big expansion to the number of f/8 AF points (only has 5? today): zero chance.



For sure AF is going to get better in every way. I think that's absolutely guaranteed and Canon will state more sophisticated autofocus (best in the world!) as a reason for upgrade. I think that in this respect, Canon will pull out all the stops because it's something they can do, and there's no more upgrade path beyond 7D for crop anyways.


Regarding tilty-flippy: I really hope they put in a fully articulating screen. I don't think canon will be so stubborn that they don't put in at least a flip-down screen a la Sony/Nikon. 

The only model I can see Canon being really stubborn for articulating screen on is 1DX3 - the buyers for it probably care a little less about that, and value more ruggedness and as much weather sealing as possible. And, I guess, frankly, I don't care, because I won't ever buy a 1DX format camera.


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## ahsanford (Mar 22, 2018)

Talys said:


> For sure AF is going to get better in every way.



Except for coverage of the frame. They really can't do much more there, can they?

That's one area SLRs really have no rebuttal to mirrorless, correct?

- A


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## slclick (Mar 22, 2018)

Pause...



I'll always have glass G.A.S. but not body G.A.S. It's my version of inner peace. Carry on with your sensor, flange and features you could not live without discussion.


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## Chaitanya (Mar 22, 2018)

You are forgetting about Buffer which seems to be one area where D500 certainly is better than 7D 2. Deep buffer is quite useful in helping getting BIF shots esp for larger raptors. 
As for minor changes: USB type-C port for tethering(more durable than micro B connector), get rid of passive matrix display in favour of eink, and go for UHS-II SD and maybe CFX format(Cfast are still too expensive and 7D is flagship for crop bodies). 

As for 4K video drop that overlybloated mJPEG format. I really like crop in 4k as it allows me to get more magnification without resorting to extension tubes in field.


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## unfocused (Mar 22, 2018)

The way I look at it is this: I am anxiously anticipating a 7DIII, but every month that goes by means that the final product will be that much better. 

Better autofocus, better sensor. The longer we wait, the better they will be.

The other needed features are here and available already: touch screen, connectivity and f8 autofocus points.

I don't care about flip screens or 4K. 10fps is already sufficient, so boosting to 12 or 14 will just be a bonus.

In the meantime, the 7DII is still an excellent camera and much of the criticism of it is fed by internet trolling.


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## blackcoffee17 (Mar 22, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > yes, more mirrorslappers is exactly what the world needs and what the market wants! Big bucks market research of infallible Canon Corp clearly proves it!
> ...



You certainly missed the point of that diagram. Yes, the mirrorless fell by 25% but then recovered back to 2012 levels. But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are almost equal with the DSLR's.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 22, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:



> But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are *almost equal* with the DSLR's.



People who make $20/hour will be quite pleased to know that their pay is 'almost equal' to those making $40/hour.


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## blackcoffee17 (Mar 22, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> blackcoffee17 said:
> 
> 
> > But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are *almost equal* with the DSLR's.
> ...



How does pay even compare to this? You just had to say something. We are talking about marketshare! And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.


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## Talys (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > For sure AF is going to get better in every way.
> ...



The D500 has better AF coverage, and I'd argue the 7DIII needs to be competitive with that, because this is something that people look for.



>



No, it's not quite as complete as mirrorless (or DPAF liveview), but at least for birds in flight, this is where reality and youtube videos or spec sheets collide.

I have been using the Sony A7R3 almost exclusively for birding for the last 2.5 weeks, and taken at least 4,000 photos on it. Using their best birding lens (GMaster 100-400 with and without 1.4x), and in perfect conditions (blue sky shots where there's enough light for 1/2500 ISO 100-200) the reality is that a lot of times, you get green, in-focus lock, but the resulting photo is a blurry mess, for BIF. 

The spec sheet awesomeness is that you can autofocus on the top right corner... but in reality, this is something that is not really useful, because those shots are never any good anyways.

Spot AF on a 5D/6D/7D or expanding points on the Canon models that support it simply yields MUCH higher keeper rates, as long as you follow the subject, and keep it near the center of the lens. On the A7R3, _it's the same thing_, except that the keeper rate for me is still significantly lower -- not for lack of trying. And I'm talking about a wimberly gimbal and slow flying birds like heron, or big birds in predictable patterns like circling eagles.

It is related to another reality with all that AF coverage -- the full screen coverage is only really helpful in action photography if you are tracking AI subject identification or tracking of some sort (because when do you purposely point the corner of a camera at a soccer player?). But when I gave it a go, I found that too often the AI would just pick a subject that I did not intend, so I went back to some single point or expanding single point mode. It's not bad, but it's not telepathic, and it's preferable for me to tell the camera what I want in focus, than it is to have it tell me what it thinks should be in focus.

Where the mirrorless AF really excels is in focus-magnified stills, because you can get that focus point EXACTLY where you want it (provided your camera is stabilized enough not to move much). I mean, right in the middle of the pupil, if you want, or a bird that's obscured by all sorts of branches. It's generally very good at that, but the thing is, it's not like I was getting a whole lot of OOF stills shots on my 6DII.

The other issue of reality vs spec sheet is that the super smart AF modes that make the 100% coverage really cool is not something I always want to be in (it's quite inferior for stills, for example). So, what ends up happening is that I'm constantly switching between that and single or expanding point AF, and I actually miss shots because I'm fidgeting.


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## Talys (Mar 22, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > blackcoffee17 said:
> ...



Neuro is pointing out that it's not close to 'almost equal'. It's like if a woman and a man do the same job, the man gets paid twice as much, and you say they are paid almost the same thing.

Look at the CIPA numbers, man, and keep in mind that DSLRs did better than they should have in 2016 because of constrained MILC supply. DSLRs outsold Mirrorless 2:1 in ILCs.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 22, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > blackcoffee17 said:
> ...



Evidently the analogy was too complex for you, I'm sorry about that. You stated that mirrorless shipments are now 'almost equal' to dSLR shipments, but the latter are nearly double the former. That might be 'almost equal' in _your_ mind, but to those of us who live in the real world (and have at least basic math skills), having twice as much of something, be it pay or number of cameras, is not equal.


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## ahsanford (Mar 22, 2018)

Talys said:


> the full screen coverage is only really helpful in action photography if you are tracking AI subject identification or tracking of some sort (because when do you purposely point the corner of a camera at a soccer player?). But when I gave it a go, I found that too often the AI would just pick a subject that I did not intend, so I went back to some single point or expanding single point mode. It's not bad, but it's not telepathic, and it's preferable for me to tell the camera what I want in focus, than it is to have it tell me what it thinks should be in focus.



I trust you. I don't shoot action. 

But as a non-action stills guy, I'd love more VF coverage on my 5D3 for non-traditional framing opportunities. I imagine a lot of us here would, actually. We wouldn't use it often, but I could see it being useful in some circumstances.

- A


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## TomDibble (Mar 22, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > blackcoffee17 said:
> ...



No. Mirrorless marketshare went from 1/6th (20% of the DSLR market == 1/6th of total market) to 1/3rd (half of DSLR == 1/3rd of total). And it "grew" marketshare by the overall market shrinking / DSLR market shrinking.

In terms of units sold, mirrorless sold just over half as many units in 2017 as DSLRs. That is not nearly equal; it is half as many. Thus, the comment about $20 being "almost equal" to $40 is completely apt.

This isn't a huge win for mirrorless on display; it is a loss of market share by DSLR. But if you extend that trend, DSLR has another 4 years to go before it equals where mirrorless is today (50% decline in 4 years). So, DSLR makers should definitely be looking to bring in mirrorless offerings, but to claim it as a crisis is definitely a stretch.
How does pay even compare to this? You just had to say something. We are talking about marketshare! And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.


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## Talys (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > the full screen coverage is only really helpful in action photography if you are tracking AI subject identification or tracking of some sort (because when do you purposely point the corner of a camera at a soccer player?). But when I gave it a go, I found that too often the AI would just pick a subject that I did not intend, so I went back to some single point or expanding single point mode. It's not bad, but it's not telepathic, and it's preferable for me to tell the camera what I want in focus, than it is to have it tell me what it thinks should be in focus.
> ...



Oh, on full frame, I agree, for sure. I wish my 6DII had more AF coverage, even if it is like you said, something we rarely need.

On crop, I think the D500 is as good as you'd ever want it, and I applaud Nikon for setting up the AF points the way they did -- at least on paper, as I've never actually used one


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## SkynetTX (Mar 22, 2018)

> But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are *almost equal* with the DSLR's.
> ...
> And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.



Mirrorless did not grow anywhere. The loss of SLRs seems like a growth of mirrorless.



> No way to know that, this is the company that prefers to update their DSLR's 3-4 years apart.



Except Rebels. This year we've already seen two of them and March has not passed yet.  The only bad that they are not updated. So I'd like to see a new Rebel with Digic 6 processor and a better sensor with more (1+6+18) AF points. It still can have 18 MP though. I don't care about touch and tilt screen nor higher fps but better noise performance with higher ISO settings.

I recommend Canon to update their cameras as follows:

Entry level: Digic 6 processor, 25 AF points, new sensor with 18 to 21 MP but better noise performance
Mid level: Digic 7 or 7+ processor, DualPixel AF, 25 to 45 AF points, 18 to 36 MP, flip screen, touch screen, 10 to 16 fps
High end: Digic 8 processor, DualPixel AF, 45+ AF points, 36+ MP, 16+ fps
Of course, this is only my opinion. 

And don't forget about my 9000D!!


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## ahsanford (Mar 22, 2018)

AvTvM: "Yahtzee. Booyah. Mirrorslappers are the present! I'm dancing on the reflex mirror's grave!"

Most of this thread to AvTvM: "You are misrepresenting the data. Meet my good friends Mathematics, Analogy and Wit. They would like to combine into Voltron and poop on your argument."

So, to AvTvM: It remains far too soon for these proclamations of yours. Call us when mirrorless eclipses SLR unit sales. (Again: this will not happen until Canon and Nikon deem it is time for that to happen.)

But to the rest of those on this thread, keep in the mind the _proportion_ of overall sales:

2012: 19.8% of all sales are mirrorless
2013: 19.3%
2014: 23.9%
2015: 25.4%
2016: 26.7%
2017: 34.8%

So _eventually_, AvTvM will be right. :

- A


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## unfocused (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ...So _eventually_, AvTvM will be right. :



Sort of like, "in the long run we are all dead."


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## ashmadux (Mar 22, 2018)

SkynetTX said:


> > But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are *almost equal* with the DSLR's.
> > ...
> > And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.
> 
> ...



"Real" Rebel models - t2i/3i/4i/5i/6i+s haven't been on a normal update schedule for years now since the t5i. It used to be yearly, every January or feb, then went to april, then later in the year, then....poof. Unfortunately for canon, the rebel series, like the 5d, are such mature lines, they are now busting at the seems to become different or something better.

The non- 'i' series is just entry-level throwaway junk, not a real rebel.

I bet you dollars to donuts canon is either:


Trying to find a way to keep features off the next real rebel so they can still sell the 77d/80d/90d/7d2/7d3.
Trying to make the rebel into the new standard mirrorless basic range body.


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## SUNDOG04 (Mar 22, 2018)

When I went digital with my photography, I switched from Nikon to Canon as Nikon seemingly lagged behind. I am please with Canon, has proven reliable, and if the photos are not good it is me, not my camera. However, starting over or even recommending to others, I would have a somewhat difficult time recommending Canon. 

I relate Canon to a Toyota Corolla...they sell very well, proven reliable...so there is no need to update the model. For that reason, I did not buy another Toyota. Although, to be honest, I would buy another Canon body because I love the lenses. Fortunately I have no immediate reason to purchase another camera body.


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## ahsanford (Mar 22, 2018)

ashmadux said:


> "Real" Rebel models - t2i/3i/4i/5i/6i+s haven't been on a normal update schedule for years now since the t5i. It used to be yearly, every January or feb, then went to april, then later in the year, then....poof.



See Keith's timeline from Northlight calendar below. Looks like the 'real' Rebel models you are referring to just switching to a 2 year update instead of annually. We'll see.

- A


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## slclick (Mar 22, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > the full screen coverage is only really helpful in action photography if you are tracking AI subject identification or tracking of some sort (because when do you purposely point the corner of a camera at a soccer player?). But when I gave it a go, I found that too often the AI would just pick a subject that I did not intend, so I went back to some single point or expanding single point mode. It's not bad, but it's not telepathic, and it's preferable for me to tell the camera what I want in focus, than it is to have it tell me what it thinks should be in focus.
> ...



I feel your pain man, I hate it when the joystick doesn't move the box just a little more.


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## wonderdude (Mar 22, 2018)

I expect the 7D MkIII to be field tested this June & July at the 2018 World Cup in Russia, officially announced in September just before Photokina, and shipping in October.


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## ahsanford (Mar 22, 2018)

wonderdude said:


> I expect the 7D MkIII to be field tested this June & July at the 2018 World Cup in Russia, officially announced in September just before Photokina, and shipping in October.



Brings up a question -- 1-series rigs get time at the Olympics prior to launch. Is the 7D the same, or are field/wildlife/bird photographers usually the final public test pool?

- A


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## slclick (Mar 23, 2018)

7D users are always clamoring for the next iteration years before typical launch patterns. It gets old. Just like them calling the 7D Mk2 a POS. Actual users say otherwise.


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## The Flasher (Mar 23, 2018)

New 5dsr with the dynamic range and noise performance of the 5d4 would be welcome and sooner the better. Current 5ds and r are old sensors with old problems. I keep renting the d850 for the resolution jobs, and like the 5d4, those files are a pleasure to work with. Now if they could match the colour characteristics of the 1dx2, well,thatd be a nice bonus


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## ahsanford (Mar 23, 2018)

slclick said:


> 7D users are always clamoring for the next iteration years before typical launch patterns. It gets old. Just like them calling the 7D Mk2 a POS. Actual users say otherwise.



When the ship only comes to port every five years, people expect that ship to be laden with the good stuff, I guess.

- A


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## ahsanford (Mar 23, 2018)

The Flasher said:


> New 5dsr with the dynamic range and noise performance of the 5d4 would be welcome and sooner the better. Current 5ds and r are old sensors with old problems. I keep renting the d850 for the resolution jobs, and like the 5d4, those files are a pleasure to work with. Now if they could match the colour characteristics of the 1dx2, well,thatd be a nice bonus



Prediction: the 5DS2 will permanently break Canon's FF portfolio from:

6D# = enthusiast
5D# = pro all-arounder (fps, high iso, video, etc.)
5DS/R = pro studio/landscape/detail

To: 

6D2 = good
5D4 = better
5DS/R2 = best 

...principally because of burst framerate. 7 fps in the 5D4 is too slow for a 'best' $3k+ price point in 2019, esp. when (say) a 60 MP x 6 fps 5DS/R2 might emerge that year. So I see the 5D4 sliding into the D750-like 'middle' FF price point bucket behind a line-leading 5DS/R2.

Nothing wrong with that, but if Canon's intention was to have two high end 5-series cameras, 9 fps or so on the 5D4 would have given them a fighting chance to pulling that off. 

- A


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## AlanF (Mar 23, 2018)

The Flasher said:


> New 5dsr with the dynamic range and noise performance of the 5d4 would be welcome and sooner the better. Current 5ds and r are old sensors with old problems. I keep renting the d850 for the resolution jobs, and like the 5d4, those files are a pleasure to work with. Now if they could match the colour characteristics of the 1dx2, well,thatd be a nice bonus



What are the problems you find and why are the 5DIV a pleasure to work with in comparison?


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## zim (Mar 23, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> The Flasher said:
> 
> 
> > New 5dsr with the dynamic range and noise performance of the 5d4 would be welcome and sooner the better. Current 5ds and r are old sensors with old problems. I keep renting the d850 for the resolution jobs, and like the 5d4, those files are a pleasure to work with. Now if they could match the colour characteristics of the 1dx2, well,thatd be a nice bonus
> ...



Totally agree, will be very interesting to see how they handle that.
Of course the other option could be to bring the 5D series together again and make a one size fits all, 60MP 5 fps and 9 fps mRaw or 9fps raw crop mode. 2 reasons that won't happen though, would go totally against their current philosophy and that's what I'd love to have! ;D

The 7D3 and M5II differentiators will also be interesting (if the M5II gets a battery grip)


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## privatebydesign (Mar 23, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> The Flasher said:
> 
> 
> > New 5dsr with the dynamic range and noise performance of the 5d4 would be welcome and sooner the better. Current 5ds and r are old sensors with old problems. I keep renting the d850 for the resolution jobs, and like the 5d4, those files are a pleasure to work with. Now if they could match the colour characteristics of the 1dx2, well,thatd be a nice bonus
> ...



No it won't. Even if the burst rate was the same for a 5D MkIV and a 5DSR MkII there is enough differentiation between them to keep the later a specialty camera. The S/R will never have the video capabilities the regular camera does, headphone socket and or C-Log spring to mind, and most pros know what resolution they need most of the time and are smart enough not to buy into the marketing hype, dealing with 50MP images when you simply don't need them is a big negative. I have been shooting 20-21MP pro bodies for over ten years because that is what I need, not what the marketing teams, reviewers and YouTube experts tell me I should need.

I am in the market for a 5DSR II but purely for the rare occasions I need the MP, I don't care if it does 2fps and no video just so long as it gives me 50MP and on sensor A/D converter low iso image quality. I can tell the difference between many a 1DS MkIII shot and a 1DX MkII shot at 100 iso if I look in the shadows.

One silly side observation, I come from a slide shooting background so am used to minimal cropping for level etc, I have found, even though the 1DX MkII has less MP than the 1DS MkII the fact that I have a level in the viewfinder means I crop to level less than before so end up with more MP per image. I find that an interesting aside in the way technology has made my output 'better'.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 23, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> One silly side observation, I come from a slide shooting background so am used to minimal cropping for level etc, I have found, even though the 1DX MkII has less MP than the 1DS MkII the fact that I have a level in the viewfinder means I crop to level less than before so *end up with more MP per image*. I find that an interesting aside in the way technology has *made my output 'better'*.



Just to continue the silliness, you seem to be saying that more MP = better output.


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## Don Haines (Mar 23, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> One silly side observation, I come from a slide shooting background so am used to minimal cropping for level etc, I have found, even though the 1DX MkII has less MP than the 1DS MkII the fact that I have a level in the viewfinder means I crop to level less than before so *end up with more MP per image*. I find that an interesting aside in the way technology has *made my output 'better'*.



I also come from a slide shooting background too.... (pre-dating Kodachrome 64!)

I also had a problem with not getting the camera level, despite teasing about how the water runs downhill... I find it happens less with digital cameras as I do pay attention to the viewfinder level, so I also end up cropping less and not throwing out as much of the image. The level is one of those little features that we seldom think of that helps us along.


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## ahsanford (Mar 23, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> I am in the market for a 5DSR II but purely for the rare occasions I need the MP, I don't care if it does 2fps and no video just so long as it gives me 50MP and on sensor A/D converter low iso image quality.



I am not saying the 5DSR2 should be everyone's choice if money is no object. I'm saying that it's very hard to argue the prestige/cost of a 30 MP x 7 fps camera and a 60 MP x 6 fps camera would be similar. Canon will position the 5DSR2 at the top of the (non-gripped) line, plain and simple. 

One way Canon could have protected the relative prestige / asking price of the 5D4 was to give it more throughput, that's all. If this were 30x9 vs. 60x6 Canon would have a fighting chance to keep the 5D4 price up for a longer period of time, and they'd have a much easier marketing narrative of why there are two 5-series models and what they are best suited for. But as it stands, the 5D4 will be 'cake' and the 5DSR2 will be 'cake and eat it, too'.

- A


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## privatebydesign (Mar 23, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > One silly side observation, I come from a slide shooting background so am used to minimal cropping for level etc, I have found, even though the 1DX MkII has less MP than the 1DS MkIII the fact that I have a level in the viewfinder means I crop to level less than before so *end up with more MP per image*. I find that an interesting aside in the way technology has *made my output 'better'*.
> ...



Ah but the _better_ was in apostrophies. ;D 'Better' is so subjective.

I was concerned before I got the 1DX MkII that I was getting less MP than the 21 from the 1DS MkIII and I didn't want to go backwards, sure it is a comparatively minuscule amount, but hey I'm a boy! Turns out in real world use after the straightening crop I end up with more, not really saying more is better, just a silly observation from actual use. Obviously there is no practical difference between 20.2 and 21, or whatever they actually are, same as 99.9999% of the time the differences in shadow detail at 100 iso are not obvious to anybody but the most anal and fastidious of over analyzers 

My personal opinion of MP is similar to Colin Chapman's opinion on race cars, they should fall apart when it crosses the finish line, or, any MP that I have to process and store but aren't useful for my output are a complete waste of time energy and resources. So I am happy over 90% of the time with my 20, there are occasions when I'd happily take the 50 MP, but comparatively rarely. I notice you do a lot of very studious architectural images when on your trips with the TS-E's for quality yet on an 'mere' 18MP 'sports/wildlife' body. You know if you listened to DPR or 80% of the gearhead posters here you can't possibly get acceptable results using that combo, you need a 5D MkIV at the very least, but really you _need_ a 5DSR. 

[sarcasm]
Indeed what you should really be using is a 5DSR and a 16-35 f4 IS and shifting in post because the _'pixels on duck'_ will give you a higher quality image anyway... : 
[/sarcasm]


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## AvTvM (Mar 25, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > yes, more mirrorslappers is exactly what the world needs and what the market wants! Big bucks market research of infallible Canon Corp clearly proves it!
> ...



to me the charts say .. MILC sales were flat as long as Canon (and Nikon) did not offer anything worthwhile. As soon as M5/M6 came out, they are picking up. And i would not invest a cent in mirrorslapper plants ... even if you might interpreting the charts your way ...


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## Orangutan (Mar 25, 2018)

AvTvM said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...


That interpretation requires the (very much unverified) assumption that M5/M6 were a significant component of that rise in sales. That might be true. Here's the deal though: Canon actually knows if that was the case. Clearly, if they see what you want to see in the graph, they would act on it. Again: you might be right, but Canon knows for certain.

AvTvM, your explanations are often _plausible_, in the sense that they could be true. But without evidence it's a story, nothing more.


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## The Flasher (Mar 25, 2018)

AlanF said:


> The Flasher said:
> 
> 
> > New 5dsr with the dynamic range and noise performance of the 5d4 would be welcome and sooner the better. Current 5ds and r are old sensors with old problems. I keep renting the d850 for the resolution jobs, and like the 5d4, those files are a pleasure to work with. Now if they could match the colour characteristics of the 1dx2, well,thatd be a nice bonus
> ...



Noise at medium iso, canon banding at high iso, dynamic range. I push the files around quite a bit, very noticeable.


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## The Flasher (Mar 25, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > The Flasher said:
> ...




Agreed. Only need the resolution, not fps, video functions etc. Click by click image quality for advertising shoots, where cropping is always a factor. Also architectural photography.


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## Jack Douglas (Mar 25, 2018)

Talys said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...




Coming late to this (I assumed it would be another waste of time) I was pleasantly surprised to find intelligent commentary throughout the thread. My expertise is limited but I suspect my comments may still be relevant.

First DSLR was a D5100 based on a friend getting me involved. WOW Then he talked a lot about switching to Canon after years with Nikon. Since I now had half a clue, I investigated and determined the 6D was a great camera and not a brick and went for it. WOW I began to realize that lenses and cameras that were twice as expensive were not twice as good but they were better in subtile ways. For example the foot on the 300 2.8 II is so much better than on the 70-200 2.8 II. He didn't jump and it was more than a year later he entered with the 1DX.

Eventually, I became hooked on wildlife photography and wanted more reach and better AF but waited for the 1DX2 to arrive and also spent a lot more time getting informed than ever before. I now began to understand many more subtleties. Meanwhile I'd used a 1D4 and AF WOW. The illuminated AF point WOW. 10 FPS WOW. 

The weight wasn't WOW and I had to beat myself into accepting that on the 1DX2 as my wife literally forced me into the camera (she's the competitive type and was well aware of my friends 1DX )

Finally, to the point. I sold the 6D to fund a 6D2. I wanted the screen and other nice features but the purchase hasn't happened because I'm now waiting for more of a travel camera and FF mirrorless may be a candidate. I don't want to carry the 1DX2 around Europe sight seeing etc., and will refrain from serious wildlife. The end of it all is that I'm now very conflicted about my needs/wants. I'm not sure anything out there would satisfy me for the rest of my days because it's always a compromise on various fronts. Sadly, I now know that some 1DX2 features that I love will not be on my second camera. I suspect that I'm not alone here! 

One last point. My journey has, with the help of all the great CR support, educated me about many things. One is that AF points fall into classes from super in the center to less than perfect at the extreme periphery. I believe this is simply because light from a lens falls off into the corners. Even the 1DX2, as good as it is, leaves me sometimes choosing to stay more centered. I must say that the spot AF point is very small and accurate as far as a birdie in the tree with branches goes. High ISO is considerably better than my 6D and I'd hate to go backwards on that. I guess I'm becoming very fussy just like some of you guys!  

Jack


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## Talys (Mar 27, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> I must say that the spot AF point is very small and accurate as far as a birdie in the tree with branches goes. High ISO is considerably better than my 6D and I'd hate to go backwards on that. I guess I'm becoming very fussy just like some of you guys!
> 
> Jack



Hey Jack! Better late than never! 

Spot AF is AMAZINGLY accurate. Where that little dot hits, it's gonna be in focus (presuming you've AFMA'd the lens). Like you said, it can be a busy scene with lots of stuff, and you can pick out a tiny birdie, or even part of a little birdie obsucred by branches.

Despite all the fancy focus magnification and zillion AF modes stuff on the Sony, I still prefer Canon Spot AF, because (a) it's very simple and (b) it's very reliably accurate. With Sony's myriad of choices, none are really as easy to nail exactly what you want in just a tiny bit of time when it comes to birds.

The 6DII has spot AF, and I find that it is as accurate as spot AF on 5DIV, though my experience with the latter is admittedly very limited. The biggest thing that 6DII doesn't have that I'd love is expanding point AF.


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## GoldWing (Apr 27, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> Are there any more DSLRs coming in 2018?</p>
> <p>We’re getting this question a lot, as a lot of people would love to see new EOS 7D and EOS 5DS series cameras coming to market.</p>
> <p>Unfortunately, we don’t have even a hint of another DSLR coming in 2018. Not even a follow-up to the EOS 80D.</p>
> <p>This may change over the coming months as we approach Photokina in September, but the current roadmap that we have doesn’t show another camera of significance coming. All we know for sure camera wise, is that there will be one G series PowerShot announced in 2018.</p>
> ...



I need about a year with a camera to Fully learn the nuance. I want a new rendition of the 1DXMKII for the 2020 Olympics. I hope canon woll give us time before rhe olympics to learn the camera and get the bugs out


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