# A Few EOS 7D Mark II Specs [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 11, 2014)

```
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<p>We have received a couple of specs for the upcoming replacement to the EOS 7D which lead us to believe it will in fact be a “pro” APS-C camera.</p>
<p>There was no mention of video features or whether or not the camera would record 4K.</p>
<ul>
<li>EOS-1 style top plate, which means no mode dial.</li>
<li>Pop-up flash, even with the new style top plate.</li>
<li>WiFi & GPS will be internal. We all figured this one.</li>
</ul>
<p>No other specs have been given to us as of yet.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## TrabimanUK (Jun 11, 2014)

*Re: A Couple of EOS 7D Mark II Specs [CR1]*

But I like the mode dial. I owned a 1DsII for a few months and could not get on with the annoying buttons that the 1 series have in place of the mode dial. Having only 1 hand, the two-handed buggering about with button and dial on opposite sides of the camera is really difficult and a lot slower than just spinning the mode dial 

Glad this is just a CR1


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## Chaitanya (Jun 11, 2014)

*Re: A Couple of EOS 7D Mark II Specs [CR1]*



TrabimanUK said:


> But I like the mode dial. I owned a 1DsII for a few months and could not get on with the annoying buttons that the 1 series have in place of the mode dial. Having only 1 hand, the two-handed buggering about with button and dial on opposite sides of the camera is really difficult and a lot slower than just spinning the mode dial
> 
> Glad this is just a CR1




I guess they might have made bodies without dials for testing out in field. It just might not be easily recognised and leaked out in press before release. Final release camera will be different from these pre production test bodies.


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## King Eyre (Jun 11, 2014)

For me, as a 1 Dx shooter, this would be great news although I appreciate it won't suit everyone.

I also hope it's got the same body style and battery as the 1 Dx, helps when travelling not to have to lug separate chargers, batteries etc.

Just give us equivalent AF performance and exposure comp in auto iso, perfect!!

George.


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## alistairm1 (Jun 11, 2014)

Could the lack of a mode dial indicate they are moving those to a touch screen, a la EOS M?


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## facedodge (Jun 11, 2014)

If this is in a 1D body with built in battery grip, I can see a lot of enthusiasts disappointed. When the 80D or 90D comes out, they'll say that is what the 7D2 should have been.


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## pierlux (Jun 11, 2014)

So, if this CR1 is true, should we expect an integrated grip body? I wouldn't dislike, though I've always been saying I'd prefer a non-gripped 7DII. Actually, the more I think about this (also re-reading some old threads on the topic), the more I appreciate the gripped option. The 1-style top plate points towards an integrated grip.

On a side note, this time I resolved not to be an early adopter, but really I don't know if I'll resist...

Can't wait for more reliable rumors!


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## Sjekster (Jun 11, 2014)

Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this. 

Hope it's not a big body like 1DX, but will stay similar sized to 7D or 5D cameras. It would be a little strange to me to change the body size. Target audience will be a little bit different then, maybe. I wouldn't buy it, if this would happen, anyway 

I want something bigger then 70D (I don't like the controls on that one, I want the joystick and the thumbwheel), but smaller than a pro body. Well, the size can be like the 70D, as long as it will have the 7D controls. If they move to pro body size, I hope the 80D will get the better 7D controls.

Seems I will be keeping the 7D a lot longer, if this turns out to be true. Or I might even switch to a 5D3 later on.


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## Niki (Jun 11, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name="googleone_share_1" style="position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;"><glusone size="tall" count="1" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/06/a-couple-of-eos-7d-mark-ii-specs-cr1/"></glusone></div><div style="float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;"><a href="https://twitter.com/share" class="twitter-share-button" data-count="vertical" data-url="http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/06/a-couple-of-eos-7d-mark-ii-specs-cr1/">Tweet</a></div>
> We have received a couple of specs for the upcoming replacement to the EOS 7D which lead us to believe it will in fact be a “pro” APS-C camera.</p>
> <ul>
> <li>EOS-1 style top plate, which means no mode dial.</li>
> ...



waiting for more info….


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## c.d.embrey (Jun 11, 2014)

How about some *Pro Lenses* to go with the *Pro Body*. Maybe a 9mm (14mm FF), a 17mm (27mm FF) and a 22mm (35mm FF). F/1.8 would be a good compromise between fast and light.


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## King Eyre (Jun 11, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> How about some *Pro Lenses* to go with the *Pro Body*. Maybe a 9mm (14mm FF), a 17mm (27mm FF) and a 22mm (35mm FF). F/1.8 would be a good compromise between fast and light.



I suspect we may see a replacement 100-400....says he hopefully!!


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## Sjekster (Jun 11, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Sjekster said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> ...


That's why all the newer ones have the mode dial lock? ???


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## LuCoOc (Jun 11, 2014)

Sjekster said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Sjekster said:
> ...



Buttons are easier to seal than a dial. So this points to a more rugged body wich points to a pro-market with pro features and pro price? we will see. everything <2500$/€ is acceptable to me if it is speced right. Looking foreward to more info


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## SoullessPolack (Jun 11, 2014)

Sjekster said:


> Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.



Us pros typically shoot in one of three modes. Manual, TV, or AV. We don't change these often, and many of us, me included, never change our mode. I always use manual. No point having a giant dial on the camera when most of your users will barely ever, or ever, use it. Much easier to implement a button system at that point. It's all about the economics of scale.


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## pierlux (Jun 11, 2014)

facedodge said:


> If this is in a 1D body with built in battery grip, I can see a lot of enthusiasts disappointed. When the 80D or 90D comes out, they'll say that is what the 7D2 should have been.



Oops! You beat me for a couple of minutes... As you said, I would have been disappointed in the past, but honestly I must say I'm changing my mind as time passes, despite what I had said in prevous discussions. Anyway, the assumptive departure of the mode dial only suggests a higher chance for an integrated battery grip, I can't think of a valid reason for a non-gripped body not to sport an EOS 1-type top plate.

Pop-up flash: I like, IR flash triggering should be there in this case, but radio? Having both options would be really great.


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## dadgummit (Jun 11, 2014)

facedodge said:


> If this is in a 1D body with built in battery grip, I can see a lot of enthusiasts disappointed. When the 80D or 90D comes out, they'll say that is what the 7D2 should have been.



Agreed, I don't want the weight or size of a 1D size body.


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## JoeDavid (Jun 11, 2014)

If they are going to use a pro style (and size) body, I'd have preferred that they keep the 1.3x size sensor of the 1DM4. To me it was always a good compromise; i.e., a 300mm because a 400mm (OK 390) so just enough boost in mm but I could still get decent wide angle with standard L lenses plus marginally better IQ for the same MP of the smaller sensor.


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## tron (Jun 11, 2014)

EOS-1 style top plate, which means no mode dial.
Pop-up flash, even with the new style top plate.

The mentioned combination seems ridiculous at least.

So they add a "pro" feature while at the same time they add a highly "amateurish" one.

This must be COMPLETE BS!!!!! What is that a Frankenstein camera ? ;D ;D ;D

That or someone at Canon is really sick... :


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## sanj (Jun 11, 2014)

Sjekster said:


> Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> 
> Hope it's not a big body like 1DX, but will stay similar sized to 7D or 5D cameras. It would be a little strange to me to change the body size. Target audience will be a little bit different then, maybe. I wouldn't buy it, if this would happen, anyway
> 
> ...



For me button system works fine. I also believe it makes it better weather proofed. 

I would be delighted if it were the big body with the assumption that big bodies give the camera all the power and IQ it needs.


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## dadgummit (Jun 11, 2014)

sanj said:


> Sjekster said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> ...



I cannot see how the body size has any effect on the IQ but does the bigger battery allow the larger telephoto lenses to move faster? Would a battery grip have the same effect?


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## unfocused (Jun 11, 2014)

Perhaps they'll go retro and replace the mode dial with a shutter speed dial. 

Can someone familiar with the 1D explain how the button works? I assume you cycle through the various modes by pushing the button. If that's the case, doesn't sound like a big deal to me, but as I've never used a 1D I don't know.

I hope everyone keeps in mind that this is a CR1 rumor before getting all worked up. Just a few more weeks. Let's wait and see.


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## KarstenReis (Jun 11, 2014)

I like the idea of a 1D style top plate. I rarely change out of M mode and if I do it's to Av or Tv.

Also I think it would be cool to offer an option of two body styles. One vertically integrated grip and one without. That way both camps of people would be satisfied. I personally would very much like an integrated vertical grip after having the chance to play around with a 1DX recently.


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## Sjekster (Jun 11, 2014)

SoullessPolack said:


> Us pros typically shoot in one of three modes. Manual, TV, or AV. We don't change these often, and many of us, me included, never change our mode. I always use manual. No point having a giant dial on the camera when most of your users will barely ever, or ever, use it. Much easier to implement a button system at that point. It's all about the economics of scale.


I'd agree with you, if it weren't for the gigantic extra grip under the camera. The tiny mode dial is the least of your worries . That the buttons are easier to weatherseal, that makes sense, maybe.


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## sanj (Jun 11, 2014)

dadgummit said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Sjekster said:
> ...



I THINK that larger body size is not just the added battery.


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## sanj (Jun 11, 2014)

unfocused said:


> Perhaps they'll go retro and replace the mode dial with a shutter speed dial.
> 
> Can someone familiar with the 1D explain how the button works? I assume you cycle through the various modes by pushing the button. If that's the case, doesn't sound like a big deal to me, but as I've never used a 1D I don't know.
> 
> I hope everyone keeps in mind that this is a CR1 rumor before getting all worked up. Just a few more weeks. Let's wait and see.



You are right in your assumptions….


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 11, 2014)

Sjekster said:


> Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.


Its a way to improve moisture resistance, and much faster to use, at least it was on my 1 series cameras. Having to hold down a button while you rotate a dial is cumbersome, you have to look at it to set it in the right position, and the plate on the dial is not reliable either.

A Pop up flash seems to retain a moisture leak issue, so that is strange.
This type of arrangement is obviously not for those that want all the built-in modes of a digital rebel, its not aimed at Rebel Users.


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## Sjekster (Jun 11, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Sjekster said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> ...


You really don't have to look at it to use it, that's one of the nice things. It clicks, so you can just count / feel the amount of clicks to know which mode you're in. 

Both options are workable, I'd just prefer the mode dial.


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## m (Jun 11, 2014)

Pop up flash means they did not drop the old remote flash system, which is nice.
No mode dial sounds great, works for me on the 1 and 3.

If better weather sealing was the goal, maybe the pop-up flash doesn't even pop up?

Sounds like an interesting camera.


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## pdirestajr (Jun 11, 2014)

Sounds like an EOS-3!!!


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## dadgummit (Jun 11, 2014)

seems strange to me to drop the mode dial for weather resistance. The 1d series has a dial right behind each of the 2 shutter buttons and another on the back. If they can seal those 3 dials how is the 4th so much harder. My guess is the designer of the pro bodies was put in charge of the 7d2 development and went with what he is used to using which is not a bad thing since this may mean that it will be getting true pro ruggedability. Please keep the joystick on the back though, I really prefer using those.


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## pierlux (Jun 11, 2014)

dadgummit said:


> I cannot see how the body size has any effect on the IQ but does the bigger battery allow the larger telephoto lenses to move faster? Would a battery grip have the same effect?



Short answer: yes and yes (with 2 batteries).

Note that if you put 2 x LP-E6 batteries in the grip, the available power (wattage, i.e. voltage x current) is still lower than a single LP-E4N battery, but the difference is not big enough to expect a significant difference in focusing speed.

Check this long thread, a lot of what we are talking here has been already extensively discussed there:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=13390.0


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## c.d.embrey (Jun 11, 2014)

pierlux said:


> facedodge said:
> 
> 
> > If this is in a 1D body with built in battery grip, I can see a lot of enthusiasts disappointed. When the 80D or 90D comes out, they'll say that is what the 7D2 should have been.
> ...



One of the main reasons that I use APS-C is that they are smaller and lighter than Full Frame cameras. Why would I want a *gripped bod*y that is *larger and heavier* than a 5D3 ??? Makes no sense to me, therefore a *Deal Breaker.*.


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## Don Haines (Jun 11, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > WiFi & GPS will be internal. We all figured this one.
> ...



If you look at the body of a 1DX you will see that it is more full of holes than a swiss cheese. Lots of places for RF to penetrate inside, but it is even easier to put the antenna on the outside of the metal frame and cover it with rubber or plastic.


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## geonix (Jun 11, 2014)

2 of this 3 Specs are not really any thing to rumor about I think.
Of course it will have an internal flash, which none-fullframe doesn't. And it is still aimed at enthusiasts not only pros. 
Wifi and GPS are also almost a cetain thing, as it will become standard equipment for most cameras on that level and probably even on more entryclass level cameras.

The 1D topplate is more of a rumor and I hope it will stay just a rumor. The modedial is a good thing.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 11, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Sjekster said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> ...



sometimes it's critical to swap modes ultra quickly though, especially into various C modes and back to


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## pierlux (Jun 11, 2014)

c.d.embrey said:


> One of the main reasons that I use APS-C is that they are smaller and lighter than Full Frame cameras. Why would I want a *gripped bod*y that is *larger and heavier* than a 5D3 ??? Makes no sense to me, therefore a *Deal Breaker.*.


I used to think the same.
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=13390.msg241020#msg241020
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=15327.msg278841#msg278841

Lately, I'm reconsidering my preferences due to the many valid reasons voiced by other CR members in the above linked (and other) threads; not that those of the ungripped body camp aren't valid reasons, either. At present I'm 50/50, both options display advantages and disadvantages. So it seems I won't be disappointed in any case.

At my own risk, let me add - and let the bashing begin! - that I'd be happy to see fewer and better MP than the 7D along with FPS equal or higher than the 1Dx. Overoptimism on my side? Maybe, but I don't think so. I'm awaiting for this baby weanling unicorn to finally deploy its wings, come on!!!


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## ahsanford (Jun 11, 2014)

facedodge said:


> If this is in a 1D body with built in battery grip, I can see a lot of enthusiasts disappointed. When the 80D or 90D comes out, they'll say that is what the 7D2 should have been.



I think there is *zero* chance of integral grip. Consider:


This is still a cost-sensitive market segment. Yes, some pro birders/wildlife/sports guys will buy this rig, but there are a ton of enthusiasts in here as well. Some folks (pros working on the longest end of focal lengths) would pay 1DX money for this body, but the vast majority of 7D2 prospective buyers would scoff at anything above $2,000 I think.
Top end APS-C is an upcharge market and not a kitchen-sink-included market. I'd wager the 7D grip is the highest selling grip Canon sells: sports / wildlife guys lean on the shutter at events.
Despite this, they have an established 7D user base that has _not_ been screaming for an integral grip.
Integral grips would mean that many shooters would have to pitch their current camera bags for deeper ones.

All of this says that Canon will highly likely maintain the status quo w.r.t. only 1-Series bodies getting integral grips. 

- A


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## dgatwood (Jun 11, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



Or just mount them behind the plastic bezel around the main LCD panel. Mount the third, topside GPS antenna behind the top LCD.


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## ahsanford (Jun 11, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > WiFi & GPS will be internal. We all figured this one.
> ...



Or it's all-metal and the two antennae are trapped under the pop-up flash. You have to pop the flash (a la a submarine communicating by raising the periscope) to use either. ;D

That would be a riot.

- A


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## Velo Steve (Jun 11, 2014)

Wow! Wi-Fi and GPS. Phones have included that for about ten years. Of course phones have to be more compact and cheaper, so that makes it easier to add features - no I mean harder - wait, am I confused here?


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## Lee Jay (Jun 11, 2014)

facedodge said:


> If this is in a 1D body with built in battery grip, I can see a lot of enthusiasts disappointed.



If that happens, I'll probably buy a 70D instead. The 1D body style is a deal-killer for me.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 11, 2014)

pierlux said:


> At my own risk, let me add - and let the bashing begin! - that I'd be happy to see fewer and better MP than the 7D along with FPS equal or higher than the 1Dx.



To me, more pixels means better image quality (yes, including noise performance) and a built-in optically-perfect teleconverter. The only downsides are file size and the related things like raw buffer depth, both of which can be solved with technology.

So I'd like more pixels - the more the better if in-camera cropping and/or reduction options (good ones - not like SRAW/MRAW) are present.


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## Dylan777 (Jun 11, 2014)

You just never know, this could be it: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=21078.msg399513#msg399513


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## Tugela (Jun 11, 2014)

My plan was to upgrade to the 7D2 when it comes out, but if it has a 1D style body I won't buy it. Too clunky IMO, and totally unnecessary - it is an example of bad industrial design. The extra bit on the body should come as an optional attachment, not part of the body.


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## dolina (Jun 11, 2014)

Will it have 4K? Will it use CFast cards?


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## Sabaki (Jun 11, 2014)

Imagine that they pop in a dedicated DIGIC processor to give 1DX ability to track a specific subject in your frame. In addition to the same AF system. 
Would justify the extra real estate created by the integrated grip. 

But all these ideas to add to the cost...


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## Don Haines (Jun 11, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...


No need to get nasty.....

I mentioned that the metal body is more full of holes than a swiss cheese because it is not a sealed box. there are dozens of holes through it so adding another one will have no effect on sealing. There will be a lot of RF leakage through those holes. Some are tiny, some are big enough to slide a battery through, and there is even one hole as big as a lens mount. There will be lots of RF leakage.

I also said that it would be easier to mount the antenna outside. There are lots of good places, like on the front of the body, like on top of the viewfinder, like around the LCD, like on the camera bottom, or even on the sides.


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## pierlux (Jun 11, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > At my own risk, let me add - and let the bashing begin! - that I'd be happy to see fewer and better MP than the 7D along with FPS equal or higher than the 1Dx.
> ...


At base ISO or low ISO settings yes. At high ISOs, I respectfully disagree. There's a reason the 1Dx has the best (to my eye) IQ of all the DSLRs available to date (yes, better than any Nikon I think): its 18 MP FF sensor. And there's a reason why Canon developed a prototype sensor with photosites 7.5 times larger than the 1Dx: to capture quality video in candlelight (candledrkness sounds better, though). Don't know if you remember, but check these:

http://www.canon.com/news/2013/mar04e.html

http://petapixel.com/2013/09/13/canon-debuts-exciting-prototype-sensor-exceptional-low-light-capability/

Nice thread, too bad I have to quit now, see you later guys!


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## Tugela (Jun 11, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> Imagine that they pop in a dedicated DIGIC processor to give 1DX ability to track a specific subject in your frame. In addition to the same AF system.
> Would justify the extra real estate created by the integrated grip.
> 
> But all these ideas to add to the cost...



No. 

The whole point of the crop sensor camera range is to reduce the overall size of the camera for the purposes of increased mobility. That is defeated by putting it into a giant body.

Putting a 7D2 into such a package is insanity IMO.

No doubt professional photographers who are used to the 1D series won't mind, but they are not likely to by a crop sensor to begin with (for the most part).


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## Viggo (Jun 11, 2014)

sanj said:


> Sjekster said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> ...



I love the buttons instead of Mode Dial, that means I can simply remove all the Modes I don't use , I have only Av and M selected, and it also mean you can add just a C# for for example video or bracketing etc.Also, I have knocked the mode dial clean off a 5dc one, with buttons nothing is left to chance. 

If you need another mode very quickly, simply assign a button to a that mode.


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## ahsanford (Jun 11, 2014)

Tugela said:


> No.
> 
> The whole point of the crop sensor camera range is to reduce the overall size of the camera for the purposes of increased mobility. That is defeated by putting it into a giant body.
> 
> ...



Let me start by saying, again, that the 7D2 should not have an integral grip if Canon knows what they are doing. 

But, _having said that_, remember why people use APS-C:

1) It is smaller than FF -- smaller bodies and smaller lenses (if optimized for that mount, i.e. EF-S)
2) It is cheaper than FF -- bodies and crop-only lenses are cheaper.
3) It grants 1.6x reach compared to FF as if it were a 1.6x teleconverter but without the teleconverter hit on aperture*, so this is gold for folks who shoot moving things from far away. (I asterisk this as crop _does_ affect DOF vs. FF but _doesn't_ affect speed of a lens)

Your statement "The whole point of the crop sensor camera range is to reduce the overall size of the camera" applies to Group (1) only.

Group (2) is why so many people own Rebels. APS-C rigs are at the high-end of the beginners-getting-into-photography camera market but they won't set you back thousands of dollars.

Group (3) devotees are special niche of folks who leverage this oddity about crop sensors for birding, wildlife, and some sports. These folks _intentionally_ don't migrate to FF for length -- APS-C is a strength to them and not a weakness. There are pros in this group, guys with large budgets, etc. -- these are folks that can afford (or justify the investment) on most anything that Canon sells. 

That third group has been waiting for the 7D2 (and/or the 1D Mark V) forever. 

They will be first in line to get one at nearly any cost.

They are the ones (amongst others) who rack up comical posting counts in this forum.

So, again, I don't think the 7D2 needs an integral grip, but APS-C is not just for size. Not at all.

- A


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## bsb03 (Jun 11, 2014)

If they got rid of the mode dial, I wouldn't care. I'm always on M and can't remember the last time I used anything else. I could see this being a problem for people who need the benefit of easily switching between Av/Tv etc. I think it would be cool if they could put a APS-H sensor in it and do what nikon does with their DX crop mode.


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## Marauder (Jun 11, 2014)

Personally, I'm kind of excited for it the step up to a pro body...although I am finding all of the "Waaaaaa, it won't look like my pre existing APS-C body!" comments highly amusing! Particularly the ones that say it will be a deal breaker, no matter how good it is, if it doesn't have the body format they expect and want. 8)

I think Canon wants to differentiate this from the existing APS-C bodies in a variety of ways, given that it is going to be more expensive in than any other APS-C body ever. I suspect it will be a different kind of animal than we've ever seen from any APS-C camera, in terms of AF, Speed and buffer (although I suspect it will only be a moderate improvement in IQ over the 70D, but time will tell). I think Canon is seeing if they can redefine what an APS-C camera CAN be--and I'm very excited to see how that pans out!

That's my thoughts anyway.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 11, 2014)

Marauder said:


> Personally, I'm kind of excited for it the step up to a pro body...although I am finding all of the "Waaaaaa, it won't look like my pre existing APS-C body!" comments highly amusing! Particularly the ones that say it will be a deal breaker, no matter how good it is, if it doesn't have the body format they expect and want. 8)



I have a very specific shooting style and bag (waist pack - ThinkTank ChangeUp) that I use to support that style by keeping things where I want them and at the ready at all times. The 1D body won't fit in there, and the 1D cameras I've used in the past have been too large to be comfortable to use for more than a few seconds at a time. I have small hands, and my 5D fits me perfectly. My Rebel is too small (hurts after a while) and the 1D series is too large (hurts immediately). Also, I have no need of a portrait grip since I have very flexible hands and shoulders, so why should I pay for one and carry one around all the time, even though I don't need it?

The 1D series itself should go back to the body style of the 1V/1VHS where the grip was removable, but not like current removable grips - stiffer and better integrated. Now, if they did that with this camera, that would be first-rate.


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## wyluncustoms (Jun 11, 2014)

hm.. I guess I am one of the few that are intrigued by the more "pro" body design... and if it happens to have a built-in grip.. I'm all for it..

I shoot aps-c b/c I enjoy it more for my needs over a FF... I have the 60D.. and then bought the 6D.. but with my preference and style of shooting, (macro shots in lightbox) FF was not for me.. so I just returned the 6D 

however, on the other hand, I do prefer to have a more durable, bigger body.. I'm always all for that.. w/ a grip on my 60D all the time.. (got big hands) I was going to get the 7D about 1-2 months ago (after i returned the 6D).. but w/ the rumors of the 7D mk2... I guess that is on hold.... 

however I am debating if waiting and paying for a more expensive 7d mark 2 is even worth it for me and I just buy a 7D as they linger around and go extinct. 

I just shoot casual shots outdoors but mainly do product shots in a light box (macro) and some youtube review vids that I have no problem using MF w/ my lens. 


ya so anyway.. like I said.. I'm all for a bigger pro body w/ a Crop-factor. just dont know if it is worth it with atleast 7 months wait and almost a 600$ price tag (compared to 7D now)


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## Marauder (Jun 11, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I'm kind of excited for it the step up to a pro body...although I am finding all of the "Waaaaaa, it won't look like my pre existing APS-C body!" comments highly amusing! Particularly the ones that say it will be a deal breaker, no matter how good it is, if it doesn't have the body format they expect and want. 8)
> ...



Would a 70D be a good fit for you? Smaller, even than the current 7D, but lots of features and performance, based on the reviews.


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## unfocused (Jun 11, 2014)

Time out here on the size/grip thing.

Size: I have a 7D and a 5DIII. As far as I can tell, they are exactly the same size. I haven't measured them, but I've certainly held them back-to-back and if there are any differences in size they are insignificant. Unlikely it would be any bigger than the 5DIII.

Grip: I guess the world is divided into those who like a grip and those who don't. I fall into the "do" category. But, why assume that having a button on top for changing modes automatically means a gripped body? They are not related. 

If the mode button implies better weathersealing, then the only reason to assume that an integrated grip would be necessary is if you assume Canon engineers are incapable of developing a solid seal between the body and grip. Why not? Canon already claims that the 5DIII grip is weathersealed. 

Frankly, the weakest link in weathersealing is probably the lens mount anyway. Much more subject to wear. Compare the number of times you switch lenses to the number of times you remove a grip -- probably 10,000 to 1. 

Much more challenging is likely to be weathersealing around a pop-up flash. If it indeed has a pop-up flash, and they weatherseal that, then the grip should be a piece of cake.

On the topic of GPS and WiFi. Again, people don't seem to be giving Canon engineers any credit. Just because they hadn't gotten the issue resolved a few years ago, doesn't mean they haven't gotten it resolved today. Do you really think the GPS and WiFi folks have been napping for the past two years or so?


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## Tugela (Jun 11, 2014)

Marauder said:


> Personally, I'm kind of excited for it the step up to a pro body...although I am finding all of the "Waaaaaa, it won't look like my pre existing APS-C body!" comments highly amusing! Particularly the ones that say it will be a deal breaker, no matter how good it is, if it doesn't have the body format they expect and want. 8)
> 
> I think Canon wants to differentiate this from the existing APS-C bodies in a variety of ways, given that it is going to be more expensive in than any other APS-C body ever. I suspect it will be a different kind of animal than we've ever seen from any APS-C camera, in terms of AF, Speed and buffer (although I suspect it will only be a moderate improvement in IQ over the 70D, but time will tell). I think Canon is seeing if they can redefine what an APS-C camera CAN be--and I'm very excited to see how that pans out!
> 
> That's my thoughts anyway.



It is a deal breaker, because when I am slogging through the bush with a camera strapped to my back, having a massive body is a decided detriment. Big bodies are for studio use primarily, where size doesn't matter. And if you are in a studio you don't need a crop sensor. If you are out and about, where mobility is important, a large camera body is a problem.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 11, 2014)

Marauder said:


> Would a 70D be a good fit for you? Smaller, even than the current 7D, but lots of features and performance, based on the reviews.



I currently use a 20D, and didn't buy the 7D because of a lack of some very specific features (that the 20D also lacks). The 70D is similar to a current 7D with a little worse body, and a little better sensor with dual-pixel technology. I'd get it, most likely, if the 7D replacement is a bust, as a I said above.


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## lastcoyote (Jun 11, 2014)

'A Few EOS 7D Mark II Specs'..
Is that 'Specs' short for 'Speculations'?


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## Sjekster (Jun 11, 2014)

Viggo said:


> I love the buttons instead of Mode Dial, that means I can simply remove all the Modes I don't use , I have only Av and M selected, and it also mean you can add just a C# for for example video or bracketing etc.Also, I have knocked the mode dial clean off a 5dc one, with buttons nothing is left to chance.
> 
> If you need another mode very quickly, simply assign a button to a that mode.


See, I did not know you could do that, that makes a lot more sense now, thx.


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## Sjekster (Jun 11, 2014)

Marauder said:


> Personally, I'm kind of excited for it the step up to a pro body...although I am finding all of the "Waaaaaa, it won't look like my pre existing APS-C body!" comments highly amusing! Particularly the ones that say it will be a deal breaker, no matter how good it is, if it doesn't have the body format they expect and want. 8)
> 
> I think Canon wants to differentiate this from the existing APS-C bodies in a variety of ways, given that it is going to be more expensive in than any other APS-C body ever. I suspect it will be a different kind of animal than we've ever seen from any APS-C camera, in terms of AF, Speed and buffer (although I suspect it will only be a moderate improvement in IQ over the 70D, but time will tell). I think Canon is seeing if they can redefine what an APS-C camera CAN be--and I'm very excited to see how that pans out!
> 
> That's my thoughts anyway.


This might surprise you, but things like camerasize and ergonomics are part of what makes a camera good, for a lot of people. Image quality and fancy features are just part of the experience.


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## mrsfotografie (Jun 11, 2014)

LuCoOc said:


> Buttons are easier to seal than a dial.


Nonsense; put an o-ring around the axis and be done with it.


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## KarstenReis (Jun 11, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I'm kind of excited for it the step up to a pro body...although I am finding all of the "Waaaaaa, it won't look like my pre existing APS-C body!" comments highly amusing! Particularly the ones that say it will be a deal breaker, no matter how good it is, if it doesn't have the body format they expect and want. 8)
> ...



I'm not trying to troll... but have you tried to slog through the bush before with a 1D style body? That extra inch or inch and a half sticking off the camera, in my opinion, don't make a big difference. 

Also I don't think an integrated vertical grip is just for studio. It's such a great feature when mounted to a lens with a lens collar that attaches straight to a gimbal or ballhead. It make rotating to portrait very quick and easy to take a photo.


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## Arkarch (Jun 11, 2014)

Not too displeased - and having a 1D top plate does not mean it would have a permanent battery/grip.

I think it comes down to intended market. Sports/wildlife shooters could use a high quality crop alternative to the 1DX. Being ruggedized with sealed buttons with a similar interface to the 1DX might be a selling point to that market.

As to Wi-Fi / GPS, could be a "bump" on the body. Neither feature band requires much antenna, but you dont want to put an antenna inside a "metal Faraday cage". 

If rumors true, I see the 7D style we know staying in the domain of the xxD line.

For me, I might consider it, but now that I own a supertele, I really want two FF's - the other running the 70-200 to make sense along the track. But if the IQ is high, maybe I would run the supertele on the 7D II.


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## wyluncustoms (Jun 11, 2014)

HEY.. its june 12th tomorrow.. first official day of WORLD CUP... do you think we are going to see any pictures or mini reviews/ first impressions this week of the 7d2?


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## dadgummit (Jun 11, 2014)

KarstenReis said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Marauder said:
> ...



I do not take this as trolling at all, it is just your opinion which is more than welcome here. 

Personally I have used a 1D4 and 1DX and I do not like the size nor the weight. I say the same about the rebels for the opposite reason (too small and plastic). I love the metal frame and build of the 50D, 7D and 5D line. But I am also in the camp where I never use a battery grip either. I feel the weight and size are not a worthy price to pay just to change the battery half as often. I have used ungripped bodies for so long that I do not even notice my hand on top of the camera when in portrait mode so I don't think the extra buttons would be an advantage for me.


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## dadgummit (Jun 11, 2014)

wyluncustoms said:


> HEY.. its june 12th tomorrow.. first official day of WORLD CUP... do you think we are going to see any pictures or mini reviews/ first impressions this week of the 7d2?



I an sure everyone who got their hands on a 7d2 signed some legal documents to not disclose anything.


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## cosmopotter (Jun 11, 2014)

I've said it before, the 7D II will have to surpass the 70D which has been so successful. I'd like to see a 5D MK3 style auto focus and upgraded video features in the 7D. Integrated grip might be interesting but only if there was a reason for it, not just for looks.


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## Sabaki (Jun 11, 2014)

Look, this is all speculation and when Canon announces the specs, it will be what it is. 

Personally, this is what I'd like:
1. Integrated grip
2. No pop up flash
3. Dedicated DIGIC processor for AF performance. 
4. 100% viewfinder

Typing that, I'm well aware that my wants are essentially pie-in-the-sky as Canon has dedicated designers and engineers who know way more about every single facet of camera technology than I do. 

What my gut is telling me is that the 7D2 is going to be the most epic entry in the APS-C segment for the last 5 years.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 11, 2014)

pierlux said:


> So, if this CR1 is true



Please never mention "CR1" and "true" in the same sentence again, people might get confused  ...

... but killing the dial makes sense if you don't have all these fancy but useless style programs in the "creative (sic!) zone". With some button customization, I imagine swtiching through Av/Tv/M and some C is quicker if you see the result in the vf and don't have to look up to the 6d-style spin-around top wheel you cannot operate blindly.


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## zim (Jun 11, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> What my gut is telling me is that the 7D2 is going to be the most epic entry in the APS-C segment for the last 5 years.



+1
Not that I'd ever be an early adopter that new 16-35 is much more important to me but getting excited, how many more sleeps? ;D


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## Arkarch (Jun 11, 2014)

dadgummit said:


> wyluncustoms said:
> 
> 
> > HEY.. its june 12th tomorrow.. first official day of WORLD CUP... do you think we are going to see any pictures or mini reviews/ first impressions this week of the 7d2?
> ...



Everyone be on the lookout for 1DX-type bodies with EF-S lenses!


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## Tugela (Jun 11, 2014)

KarstenReis said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Marauder said:
> ...



Historically, those grips were added to film cameras to serve as automated winders so that you could take pictures rapidly in succession. That was a feature primarily used by professional photographers, so it came to be seen as a sign of "professionalism". But, once cameras became digital, those grips no longer served their original purpose, but still serve as a signature of a "professional". That is why they are there, it is primarily for show and as a status symbol. And caters to the macho idea that for a real man, bigger is better. In a practical modern camera it serves no real function, it is just peacock feathers.


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## Sabaki (Jun 11, 2014)

Tugela said:


> That is why they are there, it is primarily for show and as a status symbol. And caters to the macho idea that for a real man, bigger is better. In a practical modern camera it serves no real function, it is just peacock feathers.



Uhm, no, no it doesn't. 

I shoot on a 500D, with a battery grip. The battery grip has a few PRACTICAL features that's appealing to me. 
Takes two batteries, I can shoot more comfortably in portrait and the weight/dimensions balances the camera out when using bigger lenses on a tripod.


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## StudentOfLight (Jun 11, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > So, if this CR1 is true
> ...



+1,000,000

I have the 60D and it annoys me to have to move from Manual/Av to movie mode. I have to go through 10 modes that I never use. 

A customizable list in firmware is much more practical. That way, if you want "Sports mode" or "Portrait mode" you can put a check next to them in custom function and make them selectable. That way you only have the modes you really want to use (and have quick access to) with no junk modes that waste your time. Plus as others have mentioned better weather sealing with a button.

A touch screen is a possibility if the camera is going to be video-oriented but I'd prefer non-touch screen with fast Wifi for wirelessly tethering. Hopefully we will be able to shoot video from Wifi app.


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## ahsanford (Jun 11, 2014)

Tugela said:


> But, once cameras became digital, those grips no longer served their original purpose, but still serve as a signature of a "professional". That is why they are there, it is primarily for show and as a status symbol. And caters to the macho idea that for a real man, bigger is better. In a practical modern camera it serves no real function, it is just peacock feathers.



...to *you*, sir. To you.

People who live in a high-speed theater of photography (wildlife, sports, etc.) are known to lean on their shutters, max out their buffers, etc. These are the most discerning people this camera will be made for -- and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they are fond of grips. 

I have a friend who shoots car racing on his 7D and he burns through solo batteries. He'll rack up _thousands_ of shots over a weekend shoot. A grip (for him) means less interruptions to shooting, and his camera wouldn't leave his home without the grip attached.

The 7D2 will not have a grip integral to the design. I am 100% confident of this for the reasons in my earlier message. But many 7D2 users will want one, and it will be offered as an option. That's a lock.

- A


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## Don Haines (Jun 11, 2014)

StudentOfLight said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > pierlux said:
> ...


Yes.... the touch screen is a game changer... either use it like a 1DX or tap the screen.... as touchscreens mature it will be interesting to see what happens.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 11, 2014)

SoullessPolack said:


> Sjekster said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> ...



You never need to swap instantly between action and non-action scenarios or stills vs video and back, boom, boom, boom and thus between M,Av,C1-C3,etc.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 11, 2014)

tron said:


> EOS-1 style top plate, which means no mode dial.
> Pop-up flash, even with the new style top plate.
> 
> The mentioned combination seems ridiculous at least.
> ...



nothing amateurish about a pop-up flash, you never know if out of nowhere, you need a touch of fill or whatever


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## Marauder (Jun 11, 2014)

Sjekster said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I'm kind of excited for it the step up to a pro body...although I am finding all of the "Waaaaaa, it won't look like my pre existing APS-C body!" comments highly amusing! Particularly the ones that say it will be a deal breaker, no matter how good it is, if it doesn't have the body format they expect and want. 8)
> ...



And it might surprise you, but this camera is aimed at action oriented shooters, most of whom are going to use big telephoto lenses on it anyway, much as they do with the 1D series. My own 7D spends most of it's time with the 100-400 lens on it. And, although it's not as huge as the really big super telephotos, it still dwarfs the 7D. And it would dwarf a 1D series body too. Add in one of the REALLY big lenses, like the 500 or 600 f4, and the body size becomes far less significant, and indeed it may provide better balance when using a long lens than a small body would. 

I'm not saying there isn't a place for smaller cameras, and there are lots of choices for those who desire one. The 70D is smaller than the current 7D and would make a great choice for someone who wants a decently performing APS-C camera with a more conventional layout and smaller size. If the 7D II ends up too bulky for you, there ARE options out there for you!


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 11, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



+1


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 11, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...


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## Lightmaster (Jun 11, 2014)

rumor says 1 style top plate.. how comes that some think it will have a 1 body with integrated BG?

don´t you think if it had not only a 1 style top plate but also a 1 style body that the rumor source would have mentioned it.... :


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 11, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I'm kind of excited for it the step up to a pro body...although I am finding all of the "Waaaaaa, it won't look like my pre existing APS-C body!" comments highly amusing! Particularly the ones that say it will be a deal breaker, no matter how good it is, if it doesn't have the body format they expect and want. 8)
> ...



+1

plsu you can always add a grip for say when you are shooting sports in a fixed location and doing lots of verticals


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## pwp (Jun 12, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Sjekster said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> ...


It's not without sound reason and frankly awesome industrial design that mode-dial-free 1-Series bodies get constant accolades for close on perfectly resolved ergonomics. 

Like a lot of pros I choose to switch off all other modes leaving just Manual and Av. It's all I use. How often have you tried switching modes on a 5D3 or other mode dial camera in darkness or very low light? It's slow and potentially inaccurate. The 1-Series top display where mode selection happens is illuminated. No problem. If you've never understood the buttons on a 1D system camera, I'd say you've probably never owned one. 

If the 7DII has no mode dial and presents as an APS-C pro body, I won't mind a bit. I'll just go straight out and get one.

-pw


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## Orangutan (Jun 12, 2014)

pwp said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Sjekster said:
> ...



If they're marketing this for the wealthy amateur then it'll have a mode dial of some kind to avoid the newb frustration factor. If it has no mode dial, then it'll be marketed to working pros, and will have a price to match.


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## Marauder (Jun 12, 2014)

pwp said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Sjekster said:
> ...



Well said!


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## NancyP (Jun 12, 2014)

Pros aren't the only ones who just use M or Av, old-timer film-shooter amateurs grew up with manual. I prefer manual for most situations, use Av the rest of the time. I could be perfectly happy with setting up a button to toggle between M Av Tv . How does one select custom settings on non-dial cameras? Toggle would be fine here too.

The main appeal of the 1 series grips for sports / wildlife shooters is the HIGHER VOLTAGE BATTERIES of 1 series versus the good old LPE6 battery. Supertelephoto lenses are said to have faster AF on 1 series than on other Canon cameras. I don't own either a supertelephoto or a 1 series camera, just a 60D and 400mm f/5.6L. That's reasonably fast to AF.


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## Don Haines (Jun 12, 2014)

NancyP said:


> Pros aren't the only ones who just use M or Av, old-timer film-shooter amateurs grew up with manual. I prefer manual for most situations, use Av the rest of the time. I could be perfectly happy with setting up a button to toggle between M Av Tv . How does one select custom settings on non-dial cameras? Toggle would be fine here too.
> 
> The main appeal of the 1 series grips for sports / wildlife shooters is the HIGHER VOLTAGE BATTERIES of 1 series versus the good old LPE6 battery. Supertelephoto lenses are said to have faster AF on 1 series than on other Canon cameras. I don't own either a supertelephoto or a 1 series camera, just a 60D and 400mm f/5.6L. That's reasonably fast to AF.


+1


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## unfocused (Jun 12, 2014)

Tugela said:


> ...But, once cameras became digital, those grips no longer served their original purpose, but still serve as a signature of a "professional". That is why they are there, it is primarily for show and as a status symbol. And caters to the macho idea that for a real man, bigger is better. In a practical modern camera it serves no real function, it is just peacock feathers.



Heck yes. But never underestimate the value of peacock feathers to a peacock. 

Actually, I am a sucker for these grips. Mostly I like the extra battery life they provide. They do make shooting in vertical a bit easier, but frankly I'm old school and am used to rotating the camera clockwise, which means all the controls end up on the bottom. Not very useful. It's a muscle-memory thing from film days that is hard to break. 

Completely random, but I really wish they wouldn't call that mode "manual." There is nothing manual about it. So many people are smug about using "manual" but it means nothing. 

You want manual? Try eyeballing the scene, twirling the aperture ring and the shutter dial and hope there's enough latitude in the Tri-X to capture something. Heck, if you really want manual, get yourself a lens that closes down as you turn the ring. 

Manual? You guys don't know from manual.


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## pj1974 (Jun 12, 2014)

I am looking forward to see what any 7D mkII has to offer (as I have a 7D and was a relatively early adopter of this great camera).

My main hopes / criteria include:
-	It definitely has to remain APS-C / 1.6x crop sensor (I have lenses, both EF-S and EF that I love on APS-C bodies).* 
-	Better IQ (both at low and high ISO, in terms of lower noise, no banding – and good per pixel sharpness)
-	Improved AF (stronger, more consistent auto-focussing – especially in poor light, but I find the 7D does quite a good job if one knows how!)
-	Phase Detect DPAF (Dual Pixel Auto Focus) on sensor, like the 70D (or even better)
-	Body size / weight / shape – I love it as it is, and yes, I’ve use many other bodies – smaller, larger, Canon & other brands. 7D is just right for me! I’d prefer not to have an integrated grip.
-	Keep the pop up flash, it’s definitely convenient to have it there, and not need to always take an external flash
-	FPS is fine, but I’d like a 5 frame EV-exposure bracket possibility (not just the 3).
-	Intervalometer (not a huge deal breaker, I have the very good Hahnel remote, which can do those features, and has some other useful functionality)
-	WiFi & GPS – handy, but want to have the option to switch them on & off easily. Not essential or that important for me.

* APS-H is dead, and didn’t give the best of both worlds, it gave the worst of both worlds – though I can understand for some people it ‘worked’ as a handy compromise.

I don’t mind the mode dial – I really like that it has hard stops (I place ‘sports / quick action’ photography on C3). But I only use these 3 modes Av (85% of the time), M (10%) and Tv (5%). I certainly don’t want the P mode, or ‘Creative Auto’, etc. I would be happy with 5 x Custom modes, either accessible via a mode dial, button/s or a well-implemented touchscreen system.

Having seen what Canon has brought out with the 70D (for a xxD body - a fine camera: good image quality, rich feature list & great value) – I have positive (and hopefully not unrealistic) expectations of a good 7DmkII… it’s certainly been a long time in the coming!

Paul


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## Menace (Jun 12, 2014)

NancyP said:


> The main appeal of the 1 series grips for sports / wildlife shooters is the HIGHER VOLTAGE BATTERIES of 1 series versus the good old LPE6 battery. Supertelephoto lenses are said to have faster AF on 1 series than on other Canon cameras. I don't own either a supertelephoto or a 1 series camera, just a 60D and 400mm f/5.6L. That's reasonably fast to AF.



The extra voltage does help and so does the balance provided by the built in grip. 

I mainly shoot in M mode but when I do use Av on either of my bodies, it takes a brief moment to change whether dial or button. 

It's not really a big deal for me - I'm more interested in the IQ, AF speed, buffer, weather sealing and high ISO performance of the 7d2.


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## jrista (Jun 12, 2014)

Sjekster said:


> Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.



Dials are difficult to seal. You can't REALLY seal a rotating component...there is always going to be the open joint where the seal meets the shaft of the dial.

Buttons, on the other hand, can be completely sealed. You place the button on the outside of the seal, the electronics that activate on "press" inside the seal, and everything is good. 

The 1D X uses buttons to meet it's weather sealing grade...which is quite a bit higher than the current 7D. If weather sealing is important (and if you shoot sports or any other kind of action, it's plenty common to shoot in the rain or other wet weather), then the 7D II moving to a button-only system is actually a rather welcome thing.


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## tron (Jun 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> Sjekster said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> ...


I agree with you provided they do not put a pop up flash as it was suggested in this thread. 
Otherwise it will be the most joke camera ever!


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## jrista (Jun 12, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Yes.... the touch screen is a game changer... either use it like a 1DX or tap the screen.... as touchscreens mature it will be interesting to see what happens.



Maybe, it depends. Personally, I'm the kind of shooter that doesn't like to take the camera away from my eye if I can avoid it. You can easily miss the best action that way. (I just did recently, testing my new 5D III...snowy egret fluffed up as I was fiddling with something on the camera...when I had my eye AWAY from the VF!! BAH!) I like a camera that has LOTS of buttons that allow me to directly access LOTS of things, combined with a viewfinder that displays enough information to allow me to configure everything about the camera, mode, exposure, AF, metering, etc. all from my near-permanent viewpoint through the viewfinder.

Button layout plays a BIG role here, as does the number of buttons and how configurable each one is. This is one of the areas I think Canon EXCELS at, and one of the few primary reasons I've stuck with the brand. Canon ergonomics are superb. 

Touch screens...well, they are very intriguing, and certainly make using P&S style cameras, like say the EOS M, easier and more convenient. But, they really don't do squat to help me configure my camera on the fly without ever removing my eye from the viewfinder. By definition, touch screens require that I remove my eye from the VF and touch the LCD screen on the back. Not only that, I have to take my eye off the subject to use a touch screen. Not very good for action shooters, who have to keep their eyes on the scene/subject at all times and be ready, at all times, to press the shutter button when the action occurs.

Buttons and a good VF HUD are essential for what I do. For the most common things, I barely even have to think...changing exposure, selecting AF points, etc. are largely autonomic, procedural memory and a tiny fraction of my mind take care of them when I need to (most of the time). I have to think a bit more to do other things, say lock autoexposure (if I'm using an auto mode), because I don't do it as often, but I can still do it without taking my eye away from the VF with lots and lots of buttons. I would actually prefer to have buttons rather than a dial for mode selection...the dial is actually difficult to use, even more so these days, like with the 5D III which has the mode dial lock button...it's basically a two-hand requirement to change modes now. (I like that in one sense...now I'm not changing modes accidentally, which occurred far too often with the 7D...but now I can't simply roll my left finger along the dial to change modes...)

Anyway...I think touch screens will have a lofty place among entry level cameras and mirrorless cameras. When it comes to professional grade cameras...I don't really think that touch screens are going to be all that important. They introduce a highly disruptive workflow for changing camera settings, one that is not conducive to action shooting at all (and, since this is the 7D II were talking about...action is basically what it's designed for.)


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## Lee Jay (Jun 12, 2014)

Touch screens are great, for setting the date and time, and turning on and off custom functions and so on. But I too want to be able to adjust ISO, aperture, shutter speed, exposure compensation, flash exposure compensation, IS and AF modes, and focus and exposure lock, all while looking through the viewfinder. It may be important to note that I can already do all of this with my 20D and 5D, and won't willingly give it up.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 12, 2014)

tron said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Sjekster said:
> ...



The 1DX has two dials.

Making 100% waterproof seals for buttons or dials to "weatherproof specs", or "splash proof", is very simple, there is no pressure involved so it really is a case of very basic machining and tolerance control, something a company like Canon could do without breaking a sweat, just look at the tolerances they already work to in even their cheapest DSLR's with mirrors, AF modules, shutters and lens mounts, all of these are very fine tolerance items already.

All the true waterproof housings I worked with, and that is hundreds, never had a membrane across a button, they had a shaft and simple rubber seals on that shaft, most were good to 150', many are now rated to 400', again with simple "O" ring seals on a shaft. Some of the surf housing, which are only rated to 20' but are built to take severe punishment, do use fully sealed buttons, but even they have shafts with regular "O" rings for the lever controls like shutter button etc, and they have several dials/rotating knobs.

Sealing a dial on a camera to weather proof is easy, and cheap.


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## unfocused (Jun 12, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> Touch screens are great, for setting the date and time, and turning on and off custom functions and so on. But I too want to be able to adjust ISO, aperture, shutter speed, exposure compensation, flash exposure compensation, IS and AF modes, and focus and exposure lock, all while looking through the viewfinder. It may be important to note that I can already do all of this with my 20D and 5D, and won't willingly give it up.



Why would anyone think you'd be giving up anything. The Quick Control Screen doesn't replace dials and buttons, it simply augments them, giving you another choice. The only difference with a touch screen is you can access everything with a finger touch or swipe. 

Clearly, you have to be able to do all this things with another control as well, otherwise, how would you adjust your settings while shooting, while in live view or in the middle of winter with gloves on?


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## Lee Jay (Jun 12, 2014)

tron said:


> I agree with you provided they do not put a pop up flash as it was suggested in this thread.
> Otherwise it will be the most joke camera ever!



Why?

The popup flash can be really handy. Not having it is the biggest thing I dislike about my 5D. Sure, I have a handful of 550s and 580s, but I also bought a little Sunpack to replace the missing popup for those (many) times I don't need a big, powerful flash, but instead just want a little pop of fill or even just a catch-light, and would rather carry a fast prime instead of the big flash (they occupy the same pocket in my bag).


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## unfocused (Jun 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> I think touch screens will have a lofty place among entry level cameras and mirrorless cameras. When it comes to professional grade cameras...I don't really think that touch screens are going to be all that important.



Think about what you are saying.

Can you set a 600 RT without ever taking your eye off the viewfinder? Select flash groups? Adjust flash A:B C balance while looking through the viewfinder? 

And, with that new 5DIII can you set tracking sensitivity or accelerate or decelerate your tracking through the viewfinder? 

Setting tracking with a touch screen -- now that alone would be worth it.


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## jrista (Jun 12, 2014)

unfocused said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I think touch screens will have a lofty place among entry level cameras and mirrorless cameras. When it comes to professional grade cameras...I don't really think that touch screens are going to be all that important.
> ...



First, I never said touch screens weren't useful. Just that they won't be the most important feature of an action-oriented camera like the 7D II.

Regarding flash...no, however I have never really needed flash for my bird and wildlife photography. I don't think flash is used all that much with sports either. Flash also quickly becomes useless in high frame rate photography, since even with high end Eneloop fast cycle batteries, the flash still can't keep up. 

So whether you can control flash or not is moot. It's unimportant in the high speed action photography context.

As for AF, the 5D III brings AMAZING button customizability. It actually allows you to configure the "AF Stop" button to alternative behaviors, one of which is "Switch to registered AF function". You can register your own AF function, and switch between it and the main AF function, with the press of a button. So, while you don't have 100% complete control over every aspect of the AF system from individual buttons, you can do what you stated, change tracking sensitivity, acceleration, etc. without moving your eye from the VF. 

I suspect that functionality will only get more refined in future generations of Canon pro-level DSLRs. And regardless...even if you can tweak those settings on a touch screen, you still have to take your eye away from the VF, which is worse than what I can do now with my 5D III.


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## that1guyy (Jun 12, 2014)

I think a touch screen should be included. It may not be effective for those not wanting to take their camera away from the viewfinder but for video shooters who are using live view it is probably a nice tool.

Also a touch screen is incredibly useful for playing back images and video. Just like a smartphone, one can just swipe between photos and videos and pinch to zoom in on a location instead of using that cumbersome magnifying glass button.


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## unfocused (Jun 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Yikes! You're starting to sound like Sella or Dilbert. You don't use flash so there's no reason for Canon to make it easier for others? 

And, of course, you can customize your autofocus settings and add them as a custom functions. But in order to do that, you still have to go through the old-fashioned menu and dial and button setting procedures. It's just so much easier and more intuitive to change and adjust any setting with a touch and swipe system than a scroll and press system. You can still set a custom function, but you can do it much more quickly and intuitively with a touch and swipe.

And once again, why would anyone think that adding a touch system is somehow going to mean taking away buttons or wheels? It augments, does not replace, the existing system.


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## jrista (Jun 12, 2014)

unfocused said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



*Sigh* Very low blow, man. And uncalled for. And I repeat myself:



> First, I never said touch screens weren't useful. Just that they _*won't be the most important feature*_ of an action-oriented camera like the 7D II.



^-- That is *not *something Dilbert would say. He *refuses *to acknowledge any point other than his own. I have acknowledge your point. I NEVER said touch screens weren't useful. Nor did I say they shouldn't add one to the 7D II. I only said that it won't be the most important feature of an ACTION-ORIENTED camera like the 7D II. My prior reply to Don explained why I believe that. Do you read? :



unfocused said:


> And, of course, you can customize your autofocus settings and add them as a custom functions. But in order to do that, you still have to go through the old-fashioned menu and dial and button setting procedures. It's just so much easier and more intuitive to change and adjust any setting with a touch and swipe system than a scroll and press system. You can still set a custom function, but you can do it much more quickly and intuitively with a touch and swipe.



Your still completely ignoring what I've said, assuming you even read it. What your talking about has _nothing _to do with what I was talking about. AT ALL. WHATSOEVER.

I was simply comparing the usefulness of a touch screen _as a primary mode of camera operation_, based on what Don originally said. I HAVE NEVER ONCE made ANY argument that Canon SHOULD NOT add a touch screen to the 7D II. That IS NOT MY POINT. I'm sure it will probably have one, but that is entirely irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. You've inferred something from my posts that is not there.



unfocused said:


> And once again, why would anyone think that adding a touch system is somehow going to mean taking away buttons or wheels? It augments, does not replace, the existing system.



Again, that is not my argument, I never said Canon shouldn't add a touch screen. ??? Go re-read what I wrote, maybe a few times, and once you understand it, then we can have a discussion. ??? ??? ???


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## photo212 (Jun 12, 2014)

I rarely switch modes in the middle of a shoot. I pick one for the scene, and keep it there for most of the shoot. I have accidentally moved the mode selection on my older bodies. I'd welcome this EOS-1 set-up.

Besides, is it easier to take your eye out of the viewfinder to switch modes than it is to hit the button and spin the dial while still keeping your subject in the viewfinder? We all shoot different. I think it would take a day to get used to, and you might not want to go back.


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## jrista (Jun 12, 2014)

photo212 said:


> I rarely switch modes in the middle of a shoot. I pick one for the scene, and keep it there for most of the shoot. I have accidentally moved the mode selection on my older bodies. I'd welcome this EOS-1 set-up.
> 
> Besides, is it easier to take your eye out of the viewfinder to switch modes than it is to hit the button and spin the dial while still keeping your subject in the viewfinder? We all shoot different. I think it would take a day to get used to, and you might not want to go back.



The mode dial thing really comes into play with custom user modes. With bird photography, you often have to switch modes quickly, when say an Egret or Heron goes from happily hunting fish to flying off in a start because someone decided to stomp up to the edge of the pond and oogle all the birds that WHERE there a moment before with their woefully inadequate binos, then you need to switch to a mode tuned for flight photography in a heartbeat.

With the 7D, I was able to do that just by tightly pressing my index finger to the mode file and rolling. I pretty much always had my eye away from the VF for that, but it was still on the bird, sighting in so I could get the flight shots. The 7D was always a pain for flight, at least with the 600, so I rarely ever got any good shots. The large frame of the 5D III is excellent, however now with the mode dial lock, I have to take my eye off the bird to enter the custom mode. I'm now working on configuring my alternative AF mode so I can reconfigure that one button to an AF setup better suited for BIF, and I think that will do the trick (and possibly even be better than my 7D was.) 

Anyway...there ARE reasons to quickly change camera modes. More configurability, and the option of toggling subsets of the camera system into different modes, would actually make for a more flexible setup. I like where Canon has started going with the 5D III...it'll be very interesting to see how much configurability the 7D II has.


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## Gcon (Jun 12, 2014)

I applaud making it a mini 1Dx. If you don't want an integrated grip and want a mode dial then there's no reason to bitch and moan - just get a 70D and be done with it.

The integrated grip and 1Dx style mode buttons will do wonders for weather sealing. When I got my 5D3 soaked in rain, I had a lot of water pouring out from under the mode dial. I'd love to see that go, even from the 5D as well.


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## jdramirez (Jun 12, 2014)

SoullessPolack said:


> Sjekster said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> ...



We do use custom as well... I don't but others seem to like it.


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## expatinasia (Jun 12, 2014)

I also very rarely change modes when shooting, but even if I did, with the 1 series you can do it without even moving the camera away from your face. Most of the time I am in M and I change the settings within M using all the dials and buttons without ever pulling the camera away from my face. 

Plus, I would imagine that dial reduces the water resistance level which is of course higher on a 1D then other models.


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## JimKarczewski (Jun 12, 2014)

Sjekster said:


> Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.



Yes, it can be quicker. You can remove the modes you don't use! Don't use P, Tv, etc, unselect them in the menu and you won't have that option. I prefer it over the 5DII from which I came from and the mode dial. Once you use it it's just as quick, especially if you don't have to go through the modes you don't use!


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## dgbrownnt (Jun 12, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Historically, those grips were added to film cameras to serve as automated winders so that you could take pictures rapidly in succession. That was a feature primarily used by professional photographers, so it came to be seen as a sign of "professionalism". But, once cameras became digital, those grips no longer served their original purpose, but still serve as a signature of a "professional". That is why they are there, it is primarily for show and as a status symbol. And caters to the macho idea that for a real man, bigger is better. In a practical modern camera it serves no real function, it is just peacock feathers.



The proper name of the grip is a "vertical grip". That's because, shockingly, the primary purpose of the grip is for shooting vertical (portrait) pictures. That is why there are controls on it.

If you do a lot of vertical shots, your arm will fall off if you have to use the normal grip. I shoot a lot of volleyball, for instance, and it just wouldn't be possible without a vertical grip.

In addition, a built-in grip is amazing when used with larger lenses, if only for balance and grip area. You can one-hand an 85 f/1.2 on a 1DX (though I wouldn't recommend it if you don't own said equipment). I've tried that without the vertical grips on 5Ds and 7Ds and it's much harder.


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## e17paul (Jun 12, 2014)

A touchscreen be a great way of selecting mode, especially if it allowed for a much greater number of custom modes than the C1, C2 and sometimes C3 found on a mode dial. Personally, I would set one custom mode for each of my lenses, and others for regular venues where I know the lighting conditions. 

Just so long as all the other manual controls remain, to be remembered in muscle memory.

I have tried the 100D/700D touchscreen interface, and it is a great addition to manual controls. I'm hoping to see it on the 6D2 when it comes, just so long as the existing adjustments are accessible from the top and rear controls.


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## AvTvM (Jun 12, 2014)

I'm really curios to see, how Canon will position the 7D 2.

A) pro-oriented "1D mk. V"
1.6x sensor instead of 1.3x ... Everything else 1D-like: user interface, top plate w/o dial, integrated vertical grip, same battery as 1D-X, and price to match: USD 4000+
Problem: canon would also have to cough up a "miracle sensor" and even then it will be limited to reach-hungry (semi) pros with budget for it: birders, outdoor sports ... a rather small niche!

B) successor to 7D
Semi-pro and enthusiast oriented. Small body, optional grip. better performance (especially AF) and wheathersealing than 70D. Slightly improved sensor. User interface along the lines of 7D and 5D3. Touchscreen added. Pop-up flash w/ optical wireless commander. Possibly RT radio wireless controller included as "special" ... In line with 7D, which was the first EOS with optical flash trigger included. WiFi and GPS included as in 6D. Weathersealing in line with 7D and 5D3. Price 2299 USD. Targeted at same crowd as 7D: enthusiasts and reach-hungry pros. Would sell probably 100 times more copies than alternative A)

We shall see ... 

Me? I bought 7D on first day of availability and still like it. But now i am done with fat old-style mirrorslappers. So won't buy. My next upgrade is to a fully capable ff mirrorless cam. Basically a 5D 4 as a compact mirrorless camera. 7D 2 comes way too late for me and for many other enthusiasts.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 12, 2014)

StudentOfLight said:


> A customizable list in firmware is much more practical. That way, if you want "Sports mode" or "Portrait mode" you can put a check next to them in custom function and make them selectable. That way you only have the modes you really want to use (and have quick access to) with no junk modes that waste your time.



Unfortunately, this is one of the things that won't fixed by Magic Lantern - soft-switching shooting modes with software (linked to buttons or whatever) has caused some soft bricks and thus won't be touched again by the devs who value stability above everything else :-\ ...

... but I think of the possibility every time when I wrestle with my top wheel to quickly find one of the 3 (only three!) shooting modes I ever use, skipping all the other junk. The turn-around wheel on the 6d doesn't help either, though I thought it would be a good idea when I had the 60d


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## pwp (Jun 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Yes.... the touch screen is a game changer... either use it like a 1DX or tap the screen.... as touchscreens mature it will be interesting to see what happens.
> ...


Touchscreens? I wouldn't want to swap the major controls on my 1-Series or 5D3 bodies for touchscreens...too slow...but the touchscreen is here to stay. I got a little SL-1 as a lightweight travel camera and was frankly surprised how well sorted its touchscreen is. The SL-1 is much slower than the premium bodies to make adjustments to all sorts of settings, but some of the functions are just plain excellent. Bring them on!

-pw


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## ewg963 (Jun 12, 2014)

Sjekster said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Sjekster said:
> ...


+1


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## Viggo (Jun 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> photo212 said:
> 
> 
> > I rarely switch modes in the middle of a shoot. I pick one for the scene, and keep it there for most of the shoot. I have accidentally moved the mode selection on my older bodies. I'd welcome this EOS-1 set-up.
> ...



Exactly, I love all the M.fn buttons. It always cracks me up to write M.fn buttons, lol.

I have one button set to spot AF , my normal is single point, then another button with expansion and Case 6. And a button to engage One shot from Servo. Canon should make every button customizable to any function. For example ; my Info button is only in use in Play Mode for showing the histogram, in Record mode I NEVER use it. The same goes for the Play button, magnifier next to it and the "change raw jpg, card etc"-button on the bottom left, I NEVER use them. So I wish I could assign different buttons to different functions in Play and Rec mode. Shame to have three four buttons with no value and then missing the option of bring up something quickly.


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## vlim (Jun 12, 2014)

> Semi-pro and enthusiast oriented. Small body, optional grip. better performance (especially AF) and wheathersealing than 70D. Slightly improved sensor. User interface along the lines of 7D and 5D3. Touchscreen added. Pop-up flash w/ optical wireless commander. Possibly RT radio wireless controller included as "special" ... In line with 7D, which was the first EOS with optical flash trigger included. WiFi and GPS included as in 6D. Weathersealing in line with 7D and 5D3. Price 2299 USD. Targeted at same crowd as 7D: enthusiasts and reach-hungry pros. Would sell probably 100 times more copies than alternative



I would be fine with that version, way better than a version of a poor 1dx


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## StudentOfLight (Jun 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > A customizable list in firmware is much more practical. That way, if you want "Sports mode" or "Portrait mode" you can put a check next to them in custom function and make them selectable. That way you only have the modes you really want to use (and have quick access to) with no junk modes that waste your time.
> ...



Sorry, I didn't mean modifying mode selection in magic lantern should be done or would be preferable. What I meant to say is that that the suggested mode button would be customizable via custom function menu. Firmware was perhaps the wrong choice of words. My mistake.


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## SilverSnake (Jun 12, 2014)

I'm quite happy with my 7D, but if they release a mk2 with built-in GPS that will probably be enough for me to upgrade. If it comes with better high ISO performance and some other goodies as well I'll probably be first in line to place my pre-order.

I kinda want to make the jump to FF, but I already often feel that I lack in reach with my 7D and I can't afford to buy both a new body and better long lenses, so a really good APS-C would probably be perfect for me.


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## Don Haines (Jun 12, 2014)

pwp said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


 Some things are better with buttons/knobs/dials, some are better with touch screens. Why not enjoy both?


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## Tugela (Jun 12, 2014)

dgbrownnt said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Historically, those grips were added to film cameras to serve as automated winders so that you could take pictures rapidly in succession. That was a feature primarily used by professional photographers, so it came to be seen as a sign of "professionalism". But, once cameras became digital, those grips no longer served their original purpose, but still serve as a signature of a "professional". That is why they are there, it is primarily for show and as a status symbol. And caters to the macho idea that for a real man, bigger is better. In a practical modern camera it serves no real function, it is just peacock feathers.
> ...



In the old days, when those grips originated, cameras were rectangular boxes with lenses attached. If you wanted to advance film to the next frame you had to flip a lever, it was all mechanical. Sometimes the camera had metering internally, in which case a tiny battery was included to power it (those thin silver disc types). 

On high end cameras you could include an additional grip on the camera. On the base was a motorized winder (your "vertical grip"), and on the side was a grip handle that included the battery to power the winder.

That is where that form factor comes from. It is a relic from the ancient past for professional cameras.


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## Hector1970 (Jun 12, 2014)

Given the potential customer base of those moving from other APS-C models I reckon
It will have a mode dial,
It will have a flash,
APS-C
It will be size of a 5D or slightly less,
You will have to buy your own battery grip,
I'd say ~10 frames a second.
24 Megapixel.
Reasonably modern focusing (from the 5D M III)
An improved ISO performance - closer to the 5D
Good video but nothing spectacular
Reasonably good screen
Wifi and Gps
Dual cards .
In essence a good camera that makes you feel like a pro but mainly sold to experienced amateurs.
It will be better than most of their friends cameras but still a step below a 1-DX and not full frame so it doesn't impact too much 5D sales
I'd say they have their market down to a T.
It will cost just less than a 5d Mark III .

We'll see I guess


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## Marsu42 (Jun 12, 2014)

Hector1970 said:


> Given the potential customer base of those moving from other APS-C models I reckon
> It will have



... the interesting question and imho more worth speculating about: *What will it *not* have* other than no ff sensor?

Knowing Canon, they will take great care not to deliver a "mini 1dx" at 1/3 of the price that even works better for wildlife in good light because of the gain in reach. Will they cripple the fw? Will the video have moire? Way less sealing? Will it have touch-amateur usability?

_Your guess: (insert here)_


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## vlim (Jun 12, 2014)

With the 70D, you really can make clean photo at 3200 iso so we can expect the same result at 6400 iso for the 7dII. i would be very happy with that, APSC can't match FF in that category...


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## AshtonNekolah (Jun 12, 2014)

You guys really going to call this a 7d MK2? it has a 1Dx body style, sounds more like a baby 1DX in a pro body, it looks nothing like a 7D to even begin with. less mode dials really show this will be for pro's more than anything esle. also sounds like its going to have a pro price tag as well. sounds like a dump for the 7D line up of right under the pro lines if you guys remember they did say they are getting rid of the 7d and the 70d models will take that camera over so said so done. looks like they were true. so the 70 line will be the only 7D like cameras and this new one will only be a crop pro camera for the pros to use with there cameras like the 1DX so how it will all look the same, more easy to grab your bodies and run? maybe haha looks like fun.
It cool to have 2 bodies on the filed one full and crop all looking like twins.

So i will not say the 7D line body style is dead after all canon have given us the auto focus system we all can love and shoot images with outstanding focus so I will not worry about auto focus today any experience shooter will agree unless your looking for shooting in complete dark fields with only you and the moon and stars.

sounds like its going to be a great camera, people who don't have the money for it will still be able to have to 70D 80D and future D's to shoot with great 7D like body style.

So far the rumors are solid!!


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## Marsu42 (Jun 12, 2014)

vlim said:


> With the 70D, you really can make clean photo at 3200 iso so we can expect the same result at 6400 iso for the 7dII.



Right, and pigs can fly :-> ... well, at least if you apply heavy nr you'll have a clean image, though w/o details. Good for shooting doorknobs and brick walls though


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## jdramirez (Jun 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> vlim said:
> 
> 
> > With the 70D, you really can make clean photo at 3200 iso so we can expect the same result at 6400 iso for the 7dII.
> ...


That's what I was thinking... but tolerance to grain is a virtue I guess.


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## AshtonNekolah (Jun 12, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > No.
> ...



Very well said indeed.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Hector1970 said:
> 
> 
> > Given the potential customer base of those moving from other APS-C models I reckon
> ...



A 1-series body.


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## AshtonNekolah (Jun 12, 2014)

Tugela said:


> KarstenReis said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



Thanks for that input, makes allot of scene.


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## viggen61 (Jun 12, 2014)

facedodge said:


> If this is in a 1D body with built in battery grip, I can see a lot of enthusiasts disappointed. When the 80D or 90D comes out, they'll say that is what the 7D2 should have been.



That may be, but for me, I'd welcome the built-in grip on a 7DII. My hands, while not bigger than many, are bigger than most, and I'm just not comfortable without a grip on the camera. My 7D hasn't gone out without the grip since I bought the grip.

Sure, an add-on grip is good, and better than nothing, but in my experience, the BG-E7 is not nearly as water-resistant as the 7D body is (assuming it is water-resistant at all, which I doubt), and it leaves the body open to water intrusion through the battery compartment, since the grip does not seal that. I got caught in a very slight mist, and the grip basically stopped working, and even since drying out, the grip's shutter button is about a 50-50 chance of it working when I need it. All other grip functions, and the camera body, and the 100-400 are fine, though.


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## pdirestajr (Jun 12, 2014)

The 7DII will be really fast.


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## garyknrd (Jun 12, 2014)

I just broke in my new Pentax K-3. I was VERY impressed. Now with the new 7D II on the horizon? Wow, can't wait to get my hands on that camera. Improvements in sensor technology is amazing.

For birding these crop sensors rock!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos


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## AcutancePhotography (Jun 12, 2014)

garyknrd said:


> I just broke in my new Pentax K-3. I was VERY impressed.



That K-3 sounds like a sweet camera. I was looking at that very carefully.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 12, 2014)

pdirestajr said:


> The 7DII will be really fast.



For fast, look at mirrorless system ... old-school dslr tech with a flipping mirror taking a lot of straing @high fps is really a technology from the last century. Good for Canon there are enough old-school photogs around 

In 10 years from now, you won't even use the 7d2 as a doorstopper because your mirrorless does 100fps+ full res (or you just crop frames from video), has much more shutter cycles before it breaks and does things like "automatically track the bird with the read feathers across the whole frame".


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## NancyP (Jun 12, 2014)

GaryKnrd, What lens are you using with the K3, and are you using it for birding? The major downside for supertelephoto users in Pentax line-up is the IBIS. The other downside is the minimal supertelephoto lens choice for K mount. I have had this fantasy of kayaking to approach and photograph birds, and the Pentax weatherproofing would provide a lot of peace of mind against splashes, etc. (probably not against sustained dunk, though). Sensor is very good as well. Oddball feature of "internal equatorial mount" is of interest to astrophotographers - it makes sense that if you can shift the sensor for image stabilization, you also ought to be able to design it to shift to match star motion relative to Earth. The weatherproof and relatively light and compact Pentax line seems like a good choice for the outdoor photographer. 

Don't get me wrong, I love my 60D and 400mm f/5.6L. I am pretty invested in the Canon system, have a 6D as well, a few EF-S lenses, a few EF L lenses, the Samyang 14mm, and am covering the gaps with existing vintage film lenses (my Dad's AIS Nikkors and my own M42 screw mount lenses from the 1970s) on adapters. Some of the old multicoatings give a slightly different look, as do the older double Gauss Planar designs.


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## StudentOfLight (Jun 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> pdirestajr said:
> 
> 
> > The 7DII will be really fast.
> ...



It will also be mounted in a headset and will record continuously in extended HDR mode. You wont even need to push any buttons just point your head in the correct direction... ;D


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## djkmann (Jun 12, 2014)

It will have a Mode Dial.


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## chasinglight (Jun 12, 2014)

djkmann said:


> It will have a Mode Dial.



While I agree that it will probably have a mode dial, has anyone explored the idea that this could be a replacement for the 7D and the 1DMkIV, albeit leaning a lot harder towards the 1D. I know a lot of sports shooters still shoot the MkIV over the 1DX because of the 1.3x crop. Of course that would make this camera a lot more expensive than the previous 7D. I thought a previous rumor said that this was not going to be called the 7D, but perhaps some other name...anyway just a thought.


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## garyknrd (Jun 12, 2014)

NancyP said:


> GaryKnrd, What lens are you using with the K3, and are you using it for birding? The major downside for supertelephoto users in Pentax line-up is the IBIS. The other downside is the minimal supertelephoto lens choice for K mount. I have had this fantasy of kayaking to approach and photograph birds, and the Pentax weatherproofing would provide a lot of peace of mind against splashes, etc. (probably not against sustained dunk, though). Sensor is very good as well. Oddball feature of "internal equatorial mount" is of interest to astrophotographers - it makes sense that if you can shift the sensor for image stabilization, you also ought to be able to design it to shift to match star motion relative to Earth. The weatherproof and relatively light and compact Pentax line seems like a good choice for the outdoor photographer.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love my 60D and 400mm f/5.6L. I am pretty invested in the Canon system, have a 6D as well, a few EF-S lenses, a few EF L lenses, the Samyang 14mm, and am covering the gaps with existing vintage film lenses (my Dad's AIS Nikkors and my own M42 screw mount lenses from the 1970s) on adapters. Some of the old multicoatings give a slightly different look, as do the older double Gauss Planar designs.



I use Canon gear most of the time. Great gear. I use the Sigma 500mm F/4.5 prime and the Sigma 300mm F/2.8 prime with Pentax. Up until the K-3 hit the Pentax gear was in storage. Horrible experience. Shooting with the new K-3 has turned that around for me. That new Pentax K-3 is a birding machine!!! What I find so nice is the layout also. What really blew me away is the IBIS on Pentax. With the 300mm lens it is just as good as the IS in the Canon 300mm F/2.8 II. Just amazing. Until Canon hits with the new 7DII I may store my Canon gear for a while. It is that good so far.
Really have to wait and see if it can hold up to heavy use. My Pentax K-5 fell apart on me. Very poor build. 

If interested you can go to my flickr site and see the latest photos with the K-3. 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos.

Cheers Gary


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## Marauder (Jun 12, 2014)

StudentOfLight said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > pdirestajr said:
> ...



LOLOLOLOL ;D


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## ahsanford (Jun 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Hector1970 said:
> 
> 
> > Given the potential customer base of those moving from other APS-C models I reckon
> ...



They won't have to nerf it much as it is a different class of camera. Compared to the 1DX, the 7D2 won't have:


*As high a burst rate*
As good low-light performance
As good build quailty and weather sealing
An integral grip
Spot metering at any AF point

Marsu, the first one is probably the only _deliberate_ nerfing they will do, and the second is an APS-C reality that can't be too critical of. The rest is par for the course for a non-1-series body -- and I don't think 7D users should have expected to get something 1DX-like for those items anyway.

But that's like comparing a Corvette to a Ferrari. Both are pretty fun to drive, I'd wager. The 7D2 should be a state of the art APS-C rig and offer the great new sensor that will be blown down the XXD and Rebel lines for the next few years. 

I think a crop _5D3_ (or 'action-oriented' 5D3) is far more likely than a crop-sized 1DX. Other than on the video side of things (which I never use), I'd expect the 7D2 and 5D3 size/build/menus/ergonomics/etc. to be very very very very very similar. That's a great thing -- as a 5D3 owner, if I got more into shooting sports and wildlife, I'd pick up a 7D2 for more reach, framerate, etc. in a heartbeat if I had the confidence it was similarly well built and as intuitively designed as my 5D3.

- A


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## Lee Jay (Jun 12, 2014)

If it ends up being an action-oriented crop version of the 5DIII, I might buy both of them. However, if it has some innovative features that the 5DIII lacks (dual pixel, hybrid viewfinder, other video stuff), I might wait for those to move to the 5D series and buy both at that time.

I've said it before - I shoot with a 5D and a 20D, and I love that they are so similar in UI.


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## vlim (Jun 12, 2014)

> Quote from: vlim on Today at 08:06:06 AM
> With the 70D, you really can make clean photo at 3200 iso so we can expect the same result at 6400 iso for the 7dII.
> 
> Right, and pigs can fly :-> ... well, at least if you apply heavy nr you'll have a clean image, though w/o details. Good for shooting doorknobs and brick walls though
> ...



I said this because i have pictures taken with a 70d and 100 macro 2.8 L IS in relatively high iso (2500 - 3200) which are clean without any noise reduction post treatment  If not, I wouldn't have said that kind of statement... So yes i do expect a 7dII with clean photos at 6400 iso...


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## ahsanford (Jun 12, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> If it ends up being an action-oriented crop version of the 5DIII, I might buy both of them. However, if it has some innovative features that the 5DIII lacks (dual pixel, hybrid viewfinder, other video stuff), I might wait for those to move to the 5D series and buy both at that time.
> 
> I've said it before - I shoot with a 5D and a 20D, and I love that they are so similar in UI.



Given that the 7D and above are more workhorses than a show ponies, I'd imagine we would not see a hybrid viewfinder, tilty-swiveling screen or touchscreen in this market segment for some time. I do not expect to see them on the 7D2. I think all of those things are potential value-add for photogs, but Canon will certainly test out their value, appeal and reliability on lower trimlines like the XXD or Rebels first (rationale: fewer pros in this segment that might be alienated by a 'dud' of a feature).

Keep in mind, the current 7D and 5D3 already share a bit of 'feel' about them -- I have a 5D3 and my friend has a 7D, and they feel about the same in the hand, use the same batteries, etc. And though my 5D3 has more AF points, the Servo AF tuning system in my 5D3 came straight from his 7D.

So I see the 7D and 5D lines helping each other along on ergonomics, menu system, etc. In the lesser-discussed-things, one might expect the 7D2 to now get some 5D3 love in the following features:


LCD zoom button straight to 1:1 for pixel peeping for focus confirmation like with the 5D3*
Similar AF clusters and selection process (on LCD or through the VF) as the 5D3
Lockable mode dial _(if there is one...)_
5D3's sockets for video/audio options

(Not owning a 7D, I don't know if current 7D users already got this in the massive firmware upgrade from some time ago.)

Dual-pixel and 'other video stuff', however, I _would_ expect. With it's reach and build quality, it could become the wildlife videographer's rig of choice.

- A


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## Marauder (Jun 12, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Hector1970 said:
> ...



One of the possible specs from last year indicated the 7D II (or whatever it's called) _might _have a 12fps burst rate. It would be cool if true, but 10 fps would also be cool. 

As to form factor, it might be a hybrid. It might be like a EOS 3-- 1 series controls but with a removable grip..or it might be like a mini-1DX or it might be like a 5D3. Any of those options are fine with me.


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## ahsanford (Jun 12, 2014)

vlim said:


> > Quote from: vlim on Today at 08:06:06 AM
> > With the 70D, you really can make clean photo at 3200 iso so we can expect the same result at 6400 iso for the 7dII.
> >
> > Right, and pigs can fly :-> ... well, at least if you apply heavy nr you'll have a clean image, though w/o details. Good for shooting doorknobs and brick walls though
> ...



That's like when Kai from DRTV does his high ISO test in broad daylight and declares a m43 camera is still useable at ISO 12,800. :

- A


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## Old Sarge (Jun 12, 2014)

Tugela said:


> In the old days, when those grips originated, cameras were rectangular boxes with lenses attached. If you wanted to advance film to the next frame you had to flip a lever, .......


Or turn a knob....I am sure getting old.


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## the blackfox (Jun 12, 2014)

garyknrd said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > GaryKnrd, What lens are you using with the K3, and are you using it for birding? The major downside for supertelephoto users in Pentax line-up is the IBIS. The other downside is the minimal supertelephoto lens choice for K mount. I have had this fantasy of kayaking to approach and photograph birds, and the Pentax weatherproofing would provide a lot of peace of mind against splashes, etc. (probably not against sustained dunk, though). Sensor is very good as well. Oddball feature of "internal equatorial mount" is of interest to astrophotographers - it makes sense that if you can shift the sensor for image stabilization, you also ought to be able to design it to shift to match star motion relative to Earth. The weatherproof and relatively light and compact Pentax line seems like a good choice for the outdoor photographer.
> ...



hmmm just had a look through your flickr images and without wishing to start a row ,your pics with the 1D4 have bite and guts ,the pentax ones lack that considerably .it may well be the lack of decent glass for the pentax ,but if it was my money i would stick with canon .thats just my view ,sorry .
i did the same for a couple of years kidded myself that nikon was better ,it wasn't and i can see that now looking back .


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## pierlux (Jun 12, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Knowing Canon, they will take great care not to deliver a "mini 1dx" at 1/3 of the price that even works better for wildlife in good light because of the gain in reach.


I hope and fear at the same time that if Canon deliver a true mini 1Dx, it will be priced around 1/2 of the current 1Dx price, which means approx as much as the 5DIII at release date. At this price tag it wouldn't eat away 1Dx sales by much.

Whatever comes, I hope all the hard work carried out by the ML guys on the 7D will be in some way profitable for the 7DII firmware hack, too. You're quite The Expert among CR members on this matter, so please excuse my ignorance, but I'm curous and have to ask: do the Magic Guys have to begin again from scratch every time they 'assault' a new model or can the previous work be transferred, in the form of pieces of code or at least expertise, from one camera to another?


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## Sabaki (Jun 12, 2014)

As a matter of interest, would an expectation of relatively clean image quality at ISO 1600 be unrealistic for a crop body?


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## StudentOfLight (Jun 12, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> As a matter of interest, would an expectation of relatively clean image quality at ISO 1600 be unrealistic for a crop body?


One man's clean is another man's filthy. It's best to speak in comparative terms. For me, if the 7D-II's ISO 3200 image looks as good as the 6D's ISO 6400 image then I'd be very happy with it.


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## Sabaki (Jun 12, 2014)

StudentOfLight said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > As a matter of interest, would an expectation of relatively clean image quality at ISO 1600 be unrealistic for a crop body?
> ...


I hear you on that. 

As a birder, I dial in ISO 400 on my 500D but just like the 7D, anything over 400 leads to very obvious noise. 
Anything over ISO 800, the images become somewhat and probably poorly described as rough. 
Useable ISO 3200 would be a very worthwhile reason to buy this camera.


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## garyknrd (Jun 13, 2014)

the blackfox said:


> garyknrd said:
> 
> 
> > NancyP said:
> ...



I am just killing time. The Sigma glass was cheap compared to the Canon glass. I kinda like it though. For me it is fun to change around and shoot with different brands. What really has me excited is the high grade crop sensors.. I love the crop sensors for birding... The Pentax K-3 is a much better sensor than the 7D no comparison. I like it better than the IV?
Can't wait for the 7D II to hit. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos


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## jrista (Jun 13, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > Sabaki said:
> ...



It's not going to happen, though. I agree, the most usable ISO stops somewhere around ISO 800 to ISO 1600 (depends on the specific copy, and to some degree temperature). The 7D has 41% Q.E. already. To DOUBLE sensitivity (or reduce noise by 50%), the 7D II would need 82% Q.E. Sony recently released the ICX694 CCD sensors for astrophotography. Those are cooled CCDs, about -35 to -40 degrees C delta T, and those get "only" get 77% Q.E. (which, BTW, is actually VERY high...the prior generation usually got somewhere between 45% - 59% Q.E. most of the time, with the exception of a couple high end ones without anti-blooming circuits that get 90%.) On top of that, they have the lowest read noise of any of the available astro CCDs on the market at the moment, at 0.003e-/px/s (the prior generation of CCD sensors had around 0.02e-/px/s, an order of magnitude MORE). DSLR sensors, at room temperature, has more on the order of 0.5e-/ps/s, another order of magnitude more.

There is just no way Canon is going to achieve 82% Q.E. in any respect (not unless they have some *seriously amazing* patents they are hiding away somewhere), and there is little chance they will be reducing dark current noise by any significant degree. That means that the 7D II won't have anywhere near a factor of two improvement in high ISO noise. That means it won't even be that much more usable at ISO 1600, let alone ISO 3200. 

If you really NEED usable high ISO, you need to move to a larger sensor. *Total *light gathering capacity is ultimately what matters for high ISO...and FF sensors simply have more, always will have more.


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## StudentOfLight (Jun 13, 2014)

jrista said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > StudentOfLight said:
> ...



Yes, my ISO "usable ISO 3200" would only be an option with 7D-II using an APS-H size sensor :'(


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## dgbrownnt (Jun 13, 2014)

Tugela said:


> dgbrownnt said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



I'm perfectly aware of what an autowinder is and am not arguing that (I am also a relic from the film days). Where you appear to be mistaken, however, is the belief that the only reason a secondary grip appears on digital cameras is vanity.

While I'm sure there are some out there that have it as bling (possibly the same people that put nonfunctional hood scoops on their cars), the grip is there because it actually has a purpose. You can shoot with the camera turned 90 degrees. Otherwise you have to do this stupid arm over your head posture which, while it may be fine for a picture or two, sucks if you have to do it for any nontrivial amount of time.

The grip is a tool with a use. Like any tool, there will be idiots out there that do other stuff with it, but it doesn't negate the intended use or those that actually use it that way.


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## Tugela (Jun 13, 2014)

I have no trouble turning the camera 90 degrees, I do it all the time without a second thought.....frankly I am surprised to hear that some people have problems doing that.

If I have to point the camera at something for an extended period I attach it to a tripod or monopod. The heads on those rotate 90 degrees.

A vertical grip would just get in the way for me. It would have a massive nuisance factor.

There is no reason why they could not sell a plastic add on that screws on the base for your use if you wanted it, that should satisfy everyone then. Or they could produce two models, the 7DII and the 7DII Mega Extreme Pro.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 13, 2014)

Grips have always induced derision, however their practical benefits can't be ignored.

So we shall ignore them and concentrate on digital cameras with built in grips. There are two main reasons for built in grips, the first is battery power, ever compare a 1Dx battery to a 5D MkIII battery? There is nowhere to put the kind of battery a top end camera with framerate and data throughput that you all seem to want needs, well not if you want any kind of battery life. If it has the specs you want and doesn't have a built in grip look at a very mediocre battery life. The second reason, and it is a distant second, is weather sealing, now they could make a truthfully weathersealed grip, but they don't, ever read the article about the failed 5D MkIII's in Antarctica? They all failed because of the grip to body seal.

My guess is that the 7D MkII will not have a built in grip, the reason is money, grips are cash cows and almost everybody who buys a 7D MkII (apart from Tugela) will buy one, that makes a $2,200 camera actually earn over $2,500 for Canon. The other thing is grip options, whilst the MkII might have GPS built in I believe if it has WiFi it will be the crippled 6D type, that won't work for many so the fully capable WiFi grip, a dedicated WFT grip, becomes another, more modest seller.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 13, 2014)

Almost everyone will buy a grip? I doubt it. I know several people with 7Ds, and I have seen many more in the wild, and I have yet to see one with a grip. Of all the people I know who have non-1-series bodies, only one has a grip, and that one is on a 40D.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 13, 2014)

I've never been a fan of a separate battery grip either. The vertical controls weren't exactly the same as the original set, but the thing that bothered me the most was the flex at the BG/body joint. If it came with an integrated grip, then I'd be more interested. That and I'd rather not buy 2 L-plates or fiddle with taking the grip on/off so that I can use it on a pod.

An integrated design is lighter, stronger and more water resistant. That is an idea that I can get behind. And as for the size difference and being less discrete... how discrete is any DSLR with a 70-200 lens on it amongst Rebels with kit lenses, iPads/iPhones?


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## sanj (Jun 13, 2014)

Marauder said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



Why would it be called anything but 7d2??


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## pedro (Jun 13, 2014)

sanj said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



and I thought I read here once, that the 5D3 was the mini 1Dx ;-) ???


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## sirnose66 (Jun 13, 2014)

So did anyone spot a 7D2 at the Brazil-Croatia game last night ?

I'm afraid for me it is going to retain its mythical status until I see hard evidence......


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## canonvoir (Jun 13, 2014)

There is an absolute need for a 1.6x crop factor sensor in a pro body. Many sporting events benefit from changing a 400mm 2.8 into a 640mm 2.8. Sometimes you need the 1.4x TC to get the reach you need. 

I shoot in M or AV 99% of the time with my 1DX.

I like a 7D II coming out as a 3D in a pro body. However, I am not sure why they would put a flash on it. :/


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## Lee Jay (Jun 13, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> I've never been a fan of a separate battery grip either. The vertical controls weren't exactly the same as the original set, but the thing that bothered me the most was the flex at the BG/body joint. If it came with an integrated grip, then I'd be more interested. That and I'd rather not buy 2 L-plates or fiddle with taking the grip on/off so that I can use it on a pod.
> 
> An integrated design is lighter, stronger and more water resistant. That is an idea that I can get behind. And as for the size difference and being less discrete... how discrete is any DSLR with a 70-200 lens on it amongst Rebels with kit lenses, iPads/iPhones?



The least discrete camera on Earth is an iPad.

I don't care a bit about being discrete. I care about storage, carrying, and handling, and the 1-series bodies are the worst of the Canon line in these areas for me, which is why I've never seriously considered buying one, and never will.


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## Austin (Jun 13, 2014)

Why are so many people assuming a top plate must come in a gripped body? In fact, this whole talk of a 1D style body is ridiculous!

Canon would be fools to package something we know can fit perfectly well in a 7D body into a bigger one. Think of all the people that would pass on that bulk. It would be deal breaker for so many people - myself included.

If you want to attach a grip - go for it. Canon will gladly make one that you can purchase separately. No, they will not give it to you attached to any body for free unless it's a 1D series.


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## lopicma (Jun 13, 2014)

The mention that this will be positioned as a *Professional APS-C camera *is what I hoped for. I think the Pentax K-3 fits this niche as well. If the price is attainable, I look forward to replacing my aged XS.


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## ahsanford (Jun 13, 2014)

sirnose66 said:


> So did anyone spot a 7D2 at the Brazil-Croatia game last night ?
> 
> I'm afraid for me it is going to retain its mythical status until I see hard evidence......



Did anyone spot any _officiating_ at the Brazil-Croatia game last night? That game was a farce.


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## ahsanford (Jun 13, 2014)

lopicma said:


> The mention that this will be positioned as a *Professional APS-C camera *is what I hoped for. I think the Pentax K-3 fits this niche as well. If the price is attainable, I look forward to replacing my aged XS.



Pentax bodies are loaded full of tech but lack the stable of lenses Canon or Nikon offer. So I see Pentax users limited to really nerdy brand enthusiasts and I can't blame them -- they make nice bodies. (for perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ9MsmECULw)

Specifically, pro APS-C shooters are also not likely shooting standard focal lengths as much -- they choose APS-C for length: sports, wildlife, etc. So I'd imagine most pros shooting standard FL have made the jump to FF, but I am sure there's an exception or two out there. But since Pentax lacks a lot of longer FL options, the pro-APS-C scale tips even further in my mind towards Canon / Nikon than Pentax (and Sony).

I'm honestly not being a fanboy here so much as stating a value proposition for shooters. Canon and Nikon have much more glass to offer, so unless other companies offer mindblowingly better bodies, it's wiser to stay in the ecosystem with more lenses.

- A


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## dgatwood (Jun 13, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > I've never been a fan of a separate battery grip either. The vertical controls weren't exactly the same as the original set, but the thing that bothered me the most was the flex at the BG/body joint. If it came with an integrated grip, then I'd be more interested. That and I'd rather not buy 2 L-plates or fiddle with taking the grip on/off so that I can use it on a pod.
> ...



I assume you mean discreet, but I will admit that an iPad's camera isn't typically discrete, either.


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## Marauder (Jun 13, 2014)

sanj said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



One of the rumours from the end of last year indicated that it may have a brand new name, rather than 7D Mark II. Personally I like the name 7D Mark II, but I guess we'll have to wait and see. A different name might actually point towards a validation of a different form factor for the product--it's possible that they may decide to call it something else if it has a 1 Series body, since that will be radically different from the current 7D.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 13, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Random Orbits said:
> ...



Gosh...I can't even _believe _I did that!

I've seen iPad cameras move a bit more toward discrete, after a drop to pavement of the parent device.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 13, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Random Orbits said:
> ...



True that the iPad isn't small, but I have yet to see someone taking photos with one being hassled or getting as much attention as one with something bigger than a Rebel + kit lens.

Good catch on the discrete/discreet!


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## scyrene (Jun 13, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> pdirestajr said:
> 
> 
> > The 7DII will be really fast.
> ...



Without wanting to open up a whole huge new area of debate, I remain unconvinced about this. I'm hardly wedded to old school methods or technology, I only took up serious bird photography a couple of years ago. And I hope your optimism about tracking and suchlike are well-founded, but I don't relish having to wade through hundreds or thousands of frames to find the ones that aren't motion blurred or otherwise unusable. There has to be an upper limit of what is workable per session - more than a few hundred takes too long to sort through in a day or two, especially if the shots are very similar.

Others will know more about this, but I've heard that using very fast exposures per frame leads to unappealing-looking video. But you need short exposure times to get fast-moving subjects like birds in flight without motion blur, if you're extracting frames for stills. Seems an unsatisfying compromise.

But we'll see. The mirrorless camera would need similar ergonomics to DSLRs to work with big lenses anyhow, imho.


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## scyrene (Jun 13, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > Sabaki said:
> ...



Mind if I ask, is it usually sunny where you shoot? I'm almost never able to do bird shots at ISO 400, and even 800 is low. 1600-3200 normal (this is at f/10 though).


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## Sabaki (Jun 13, 2014)

scyrene said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > StudentOfLight said:
> ...



Sure you may ask, no problem. 

As I know my 500D isn't the top camera, I work within its limits and I watch my subject and the sun very carefully. 

I do not shoot unless my subject has direct light on it. If the bird is bathed in sunlight, I shoot in manual mode at ISO 400 and vary my shutter speed from 1/2000 - 1/4000. 

I only do about 5% of my shots above ISO 400. I just do not like the lack of image clarity at the higher ISO's and just do not push my shutter in poor light.


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## jrista (Jun 13, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Sabaki said:
> ...



What aperture?


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## jdramirez (Jun 13, 2014)

when the c100, with its 4k technology came out, there was a video about exporting stills from video. It seemed like too much Damn work... review 24000 frames. 



scyrene said:


> [quote =Marsu42 link=topic=21282.msg404354#msg404354 date=1402582107]
> 
> 
> pdirestajr said:
> ...



Without wanting to open up a whole huge new area of debate, I remain unconvinced about this. I'm hardly wedded to old school methods or technology, I only took up serious bird photography a couple of years ago. And I hope your optimism about tracking and suchlike are well-founded, but I don't relish having to wade through hundreds or thousands of frames to find the ones that aren't motion blurred or otherwise unusable. There has to be an upper limit of what is workable per session - more than a few hundred takes too long to sort through in a day or two, especially if the shots are very similar.

Others will know more about this, but I've heard that using very fast exposures per frame leads to unappealing-looking video. But you need short exposure times to get fast-moving subjects like birds in flight without motion blur, if you're extracting frames for stills. Seems an unsatisfying compromise.

But we'll see. The mirrorless camera would need similar ergonomics to DSLRs to work with big lenses anyhow, imho.
[/quote]


----------



## Sabaki (Jun 13, 2014)

jrista said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



f/5.6. If my shutter speed is above 1/2500 and I'm not compromising my bokeh, I may push my aperture to f/8.0.


----------



## mkabi (Jun 13, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> when the c100, with its 4k technology came out, there was a video about exporting stills from video. It seemed like too much Damn work... review 24000 frames.



Pssst.... C100 doesn't have 4K.
Typo?


----------



## jdramirez (Jun 13, 2014)

mkabi said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > when the c100, with its 4k technology came out, there was a video about exporting stills from video. It seemed like too much Damn work... review 24000 frames.
> ...



It was one of the cinema bodies... I'm not sure which one obviously.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jun 13, 2014)

Well, not necessarily. I shoot about 400 shots per basketball game and pick the best 60. I can sort them and edit them in one night, maybe 2-3 hours. It's not fun I agree, but not absolutely terrible.


----------



## scyrene (Jun 13, 2014)

bdunbar79 said:


> Well, not necessarily. I shoot about 400 shots per basketball game and pick the best 60. I can sort them and edit them in one night, maybe 2-3 hours. It's not fun I agree, but not absolutely terrible.



400 shots is manageable. But at the suggested 100fps that would be just 4 seconds' shots. Even at 30fps you'd be into the thousands in a typical action session. I just don't see video frame extraction as a realistic option for all but the highest profile work.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jun 13, 2014)

scyrene said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, not necessarily. I shoot about 400 shots per basketball game and pick the best 60. I can sort them and edit them in one night, maybe 2-3 hours. It's not fun I agree, but not absolutely terrible.
> ...



Oh I see what you were saying. Sorry I misunderstood your post.


----------



## jrista (Jun 14, 2014)

scyrene said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, not necessarily. I shoot about 400 shots per basketball game and pick the best 60. I can sort them and edit them in one night, maybe 2-3 hours. It's not fun I agree, but not absolutely terrible.
> ...



Aye. I don't think that everyone who wants a super high stills frame rate understands the immense volumes of data they will be creating. At 30fps, it's bad enough, but I hear mirrorless diehards talking about 60fps or 120fps all too frequently. Could you imagine the data you would have to sift through to find the "best" shot? And before even that...you have to IMPORT it all! A three-second burst at 120fps is 360 images. A three second burst is a SHORT burst, five is average, and when it comes to longer sequences of action, such as is often the case with BIF, you might have 10-15 seconds of continuous frames. At 120fps, that is 1200 - 1800 images! 

IMO, frame rates that high for still shooting are just plain and simply not worth it. Having a higher frame rate helps, but there is a point of diminishing returns. I can't imagine I'd ever want more than 20fps at most, and I would be willing to bet that 10-14fps is probably superb. That means every 1/10th to 1/14th of a second you get a frame, which is a pretty darn small timeslice. But 1/60th? Or even 1/120th of a second? The human eye is generally capable of discerning about 1/30th or so when watching video, and we use 1/60th only to completely and totally GUARANTEE that there is no stutter, but we can't actually discern each frame. The problem with stills is, the frames aren't cycles on top of each other, so we can't tell the difference at 1/30th of 1/60th or 1/120th when they are lined up next to each other. It would just be a waste of time, space, and effort (and actually money, as you would need MONSTER memory cards and IMMENSE hard drives to store all that data) to use a stills frame rate that high.


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## jdramirez (Jun 14, 2014)

As a quick counter point... there are certain images that are really hard to get... a ball being compressed by a bat at the moment of contact, a diver just before he puts his fields in the water, etc.

You may have 120 images to sort through, but know which image exactly you want makes it easy enough to find.

But that is about it... no thank you to the remaining 119 images.


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## jrista (Jun 14, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> As a quick counter point... there are certain images that are really hard to get... a ball being compressed by a bat at the moment of contact, a diver just before he puts his fields in the water, etc.
> 
> You may have 120 images to sort through, but know which image exactly you want makes it easy enough to find.
> 
> But that is about it... no thank you to the remaining 119 images.



I agree, there may be a few rare situations where you want a higher frame rate than 12fps. That said, people get those kinds of shots. They have actually been getting them for years, with equipment older and slower even than we have today. I'm not sure 120fps is _*necessary*_. I'm not even sure 30fps is _necessary_, although it might be the point where diminishing returns have kicked in enough that anything faster would still be pretty useless.

Beyond the point of diminishing returns, you would have many, even dozens of frames of essentially the same thing. At that point, your gathering dozens or hundreds of frames per second so you can choose a more appealing squashed base ball shape...which changes only by a few millimeters per frame.  Is that really worth the extra import time and storage requirements and cost?


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## 9VIII (Jun 14, 2014)

I just want to clear up some misconceptions about human vision here.



> Tests with Air force pilots have shown, that they could identify the plane on a flashed picture that was flashed only for 1/220th of a second.


http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm

The bottom line is that applying a "framerate" number to human vision is kind of like asking how many pixels are in a painting.
The 24/30fps standard was arrived at by looking at the _minimum_ framerate required to produce an image that people didn't find uncomfortable using the limited equipment available many decades ago.


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## flyingSquirrel (Jun 14, 2014)

A quick backpedal to the vertical grip thing...this is an excerpt from a post I made on another thread regarding that...

I have the 7D battery grip. It is essentially useless to me when shooting wildlife, because I need to select different focus points with the thumb joystick on-the-fly as I am shooting moving subjects. The 7D battery grip obviously does not have the thumb joystick, nor can you reach the built-in body joystick when gripping the battery grip vertically. I rarely shoot vertical wildlife shots simply because I cannot select focus points and control everything easily in vertical format with the subject is moving. If the 7Dmk2 has the pro body with integrated grip similar to the 1D-x with the thumb joystick and everything, I would be thrilled.

If the 7D2 does not have a vertical grip built in, it is highly unlikely that I will purchase an add-on grip, considering it would be the same story as my 7D grip described above. This would be a major disappointment for me.


----------



## AvTvM (Jun 14, 2014)

Yes it is a problem on the 7d/bg-e7. Luckily there is a really simple solution: just put a second joystick af-selector on the grip. See 5d3 battery grip bg-e11. 




flyingSquirrel said:


> A quick backpedal to the vertical grip thing...this is an excerpt from a post I made on another thread regarding that...
> 
> I have the 7D battery grip. It is essentially useless to me when shooting wildlife, because I need to select different focus points with the thumb joystick on-the-fly as I am shooting moving subjects. The 7D battery grip obviously does not have the thumb joystick, nor can you reach the built-in body joystick when gripping the battery grip vertically. I rarely shoot vertical wildlife shots simply because I cannot select focus points and control everything easily in vertical format with the subject is moving. If the 7Dmk2 has the pro body with integrated grip similar to the 1D-x with the thumb joystick and everything, I would be thrilled.
> 
> If the 7D2 does not have a vertical grip built in, it is highly unlikely that I will purchase an add-on grip, considering it would be the same story as my 7D grip described above. This would be a major disappointment for me.


----------



## Maxaperture (Jun 14, 2014)

Hope it turns out to be a 1D MkV, and nothing to do with the 7D.
Another 1.3 crop sensor, as was the 1D MkIV,,,,,, or 1.6 crop18Mp sensor would be awesome.


----------



## Lee Jay (Jun 14, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> As a quick counter point... there are certain images that are really hard to get... a ball being compressed by a bat at the moment of contact, a diver just before he puts his fields in the water, etc.
> 
> You may have 120 images to sort through, but know which image exactly you want makes it easy enough to find.
> 
> But that is about it... no thank you to the remaining 119 images.



The trouble is, I can do single-shot timing reliably to within 5ms or so, and get within around 2ms at a reliability of around 50%. For spray and pray to do that well, you're going to need in the 200-500fps range. That's pretty fast, and pretty hard to store.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 14, 2014)

pierlux said:


> do the Magic Guys have to begin again from scratch every time they 'assault' a new model or can the previous work be transferred, in the form of pieces of code or at least expertise, from one camera to another?



No, the basic ML codebase stays the same and is very mature by now - i.e. integrating with Canon DryOS as far as setting props and memory allocation is concerned. The 7d1 has a unique catch though which might also apply to the 7d2: real dual digic-processing (and not just offloading the af to a digic).

That's the reason the 7d1 port didn't get started for some years as it wouldn't boot at all, and even now some features don't work at all. In general, my estimation is one year from "Hello World" on a newer camera to a release which has been tested enough so everything works w/o hiccups. *If* a maintainer for the camera is found, and that's not very likely since it's an unpaid job requiring months of man-work. Btw the 6d is unmaintained right now (but somehow working), and so is the 100d (not working at all).



pedro said:


> and I thought I read here once, that the 5D3 was the mini 1Dx ;-) ???



I imagine the 5d3's frame rate is still way too slow for pro sports shooting and maybe wildlife - for these it might be a fraction of a second between the and perfect shot you sell and junk that looks like your mom shot it. I'm a flash user and really not a fan of high fps, but if I'd want to be sure to capture the moment I'd rather capture a frame off raw video with enough resolution for most print/web purposes.

Btw if you don't know it: Magic Lantern has not only raw video, but also a "silent pix" function which captures bursts of 60fps+ even on cameras which sd card cannot sustain high write speeds. It even filters out shots that are out of focus, the catch is that it needs live view and doesn't work with af but only locked focus.



lopicma said:


> The mention that this will be positioned as a *Professional APS-C camera *is what I hoped for.



Professional also means 1dx-like shutter cycles. Burst with mirror/shutter up in lv have the advantage of not eating through your shutter - but did you ever calculate how long your 5d3 lasts @max fps and 150k warranty cycles  ? How long a supposed 7d2 lasts @10+fps ?


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 14, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> when the c100, with its 4k technology came out, there was a video about exporting stills from video. It seemed like too much Damn work... review 24000 frames.
> Without wanting to open up a whole huge new area of debate, I remain unconvinced about this. I'm hardly wedded to old school methods or technology, I only took up serious bird photography a couple of years ago. And I hope your optimism about tracking and suchlike are well-founded, but I don't relish having to wade through hundreds or thousands of frames to find the ones that aren't motion blurred or otherwise unusable. There has to be an upper limit of what is workable per session - more than a few hundred takes too long to sort through in a day or two, especially if the shots are very similar.



Last week I shot a time lapse with 36,940 frames. I can assure you that going through that many images looking for a particular frame is not a trivial task....


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 14, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Professional also means 1dx-like shutter cycles. Burst with mirror/shutter up in lv have the advantage of not eating through your shutter - but did you ever calculate how long your 5d3 lasts @max fps and 150k warranty cycles  ? How long a supposed 7d2 lasts @10+fps ?


3 hours


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## Marsu42 (Jun 14, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> 3 hours



Now, people with a calculator and a phone could also figure out how many $ this is per minute considering the cost of a shutter replacement (parts and service)  .. I don't know how long the mirror construction holds, I guess the shutter itself is the first thing that breaks.


----------



## Austin (Jun 14, 2014)

flyingSquirrel said:


> A quick backpedal to the vertical grip thing...this is an excerpt from a post I made on another thread regarding that...
> 
> I have the 7D battery grip. It is essentially useless to me when shooting wildlife, because I need to select different focus points with the thumb joystick on-the-fly as I am shooting moving subjects. The 7D battery grip obviously does not have the thumb joystick, nor can you reach the built-in body joystick when gripping the battery grip vertically. I rarely shoot vertical wildlife shots simply because I cannot select focus points and control everything easily in vertical format with the subject is moving. If the 7Dmk2 has the pro body with integrated grip similar to the 1D-x with the thumb joystick and everything, I would be thrilled.
> 
> If the 7D2 does not have a vertical grip built in, it is highly unlikely that I will purchase an add-on grip, considering it would be the same story as my 7D grip described above. This would be a major disappointment for me.



Why don't you just turn the 7D vertically so the back of your hand is facing up?

Maybe Canon will add a joystick to the grip for the 7DII. I would be surprised to see that though.

I think there is about a zero percent chance the 7D's successor will come griped like a 1D. It would be too bulky for many a potential buyer. Canon's not going to want to put off potential customers who value the compactness of a 7D type body, just to satisfy people in the minority like yourself who would enjoy carrying the bulk of a 1D just so it has a vertical joystick.

AND anyone that does want a grip can just buy it separately - more money for canon. You do know that they like when you buy extra things for your camera, right. And for anyone STILL not satisfied having a grip without a joystick can go with a 1Dsomething.

I really think you'll have two options when the 7DII comes out. Hold your camera vertically, or buy a 1D.


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## AvTvM (Jun 14, 2014)

Austin said:


> Maybe Canon will add a joystick to the grip for the 7DII. I would be surprised to see that though.



I expect the 7D successor to come without integrated grip but with a optional vertical/battery grip. 
And I fully expect it to have a [duplicate] joystick for AF-Field selection in vertical orientation. 
It'll be a differentiating feature vs. 70D ... BG-E14 has no joystick. 

Same as the difference between BG-E11 / 5D 3 with joystick vs. BG-E13 / 6D without. 
It's the one thing Canon has truly down to perfection: "marketing differentiation"


----------



## pierlux (Jun 14, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > do the Magic Guys have to begin again from scratch every time they 'assault' a new model or can the previous work be transferred, in the form of pieces of code or at least expertise, from one camera to another?
> ...


Thanks a lot!


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## dolina (Jun 14, 2014)

Any word whether it will use a CFast or CF card? I hope it doesn't have issues with any lens that requires a lens to be upgraded.


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## scyrene (Jun 14, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > when the c100, with its 4k technology came out, there was a video about exporting stills from video. It seemed like too much Damn work... review 24000 frames.
> ...



Time lapse is a killer! But so worth it. Did you burn through the shutter life? I only use an old camera for that partly for this reason.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 14, 2014)

scyrene said:


> Time lapse is a killer! But so worth it. Did you burn through the shutter life? I only use an old camera for that partly for this reason.



For lower-res timelapses use Magic Lantern with fps override (it takes a movie for example with 0.1 fps) or intervalometer with silent pix - both use zero shutter cycles and are made just for this purpose.


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## Don Haines (Jun 14, 2014)

scyrene said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...


I was using a GoPro.... filled a 64G memory card!


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 15, 2014)

Sjekster said:


> Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.



It's quite simple, the mode dial is the weakest part of the top plate. If the camera takes damage to the top plate, then it's very common for this to get smashed. It's not a functional design on the 1D series, it's a robust design. 

I've smashed the mode dial once on one of my 5DIII's and the cracked the top LCD too. All the riggors of pro shooting...it happens and that's why I carry a few spare camera bodies.


----------



## Austin (Jun 15, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Sjekster said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody explain to me HOW lack of a mode dial is a good thing? I've never really understood the button system on the 1D line. To me it seems to be a lot slower to switch modes like this.
> ...



Plus, as another user posted, you can restrict the modes you use. So, for example, is you never use P mode - cause you're not a loser  - you can take it out of the rotation.

AND no mode dial just looks bad-ass. Because having a camera that looks cool is by far the most important, if not the only, reason to invest in a DSLR!


----------



## Marauder (Jun 15, 2014)

I'm rather surprised no one has captured a picture of a 7D2 at the World Cup yet---if they're really there!


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 15, 2014)

Marauder said:


> I'm rather surprised no one has captured a picture of a 7D2 at the World Cup yet---if they're really there!



It probably looks a bit like a short 1Dx so no one's probably noticed yet!


----------



## Marauder (Jun 15, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > I'm rather surprised no one has captured a picture of a 7D2 at the World Cup yet---if they're really there!
> ...



Yeah, that could be it! They might not even be marked, or the plates could be obscured. Easier to hide than the 200-400 lens prototypes! LOL


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## Sporgon (Jun 15, 2014)

Austin said:


> So, for example, is you never use P mode - cause you're not a loser  - you can take it out of the rotation.


P mode can be used as a modified Av mode, in that you can still override the aperture setting and also compensate. Used this way it can be useful. So it's not as much for 'losers' as you might at first think.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 15, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> Austin said:
> 
> 
> > So, for example, is you never use P mode - cause you're not a loser  - you can take it out of the rotation.
> ...



Av or Tv or M.....there is no other requirement


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## Steve (Jun 15, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> P mode can be used as a modified Av mode, in that you can still override the aperture setting and also compensate. Used this way it can be useful. So it's not as much for 'losers' as you might at first think.



Help me out here - why wouldn't I just use Av mode? I mean, assuming I'm not Ken "The P stands for Professional!" Rockwell.


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## Don Haines (Jun 15, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Austin said:
> ...


but what if I want to take pictures of green boxes?


----------



## AvTvM (Jun 15, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Av or Tv or M.....there is no other requirement



Exactly.


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## Don Haines (Jun 15, 2014)

So the best that I can determine from this and other threads is that the 7d2 will have:

Either an APS-C sensor, APS-H, or FF
The sensor will either be normal, DPAF, or a Foveron type
It will either come gripped or not.
It will have Digic5+, Digic6, or a new processor
It will either be single or dual
The cards will be an undetermined combination of cFast, SD, and compact flash
It will be 12MP, 18MP, 20MP, or 24MP
The frame rate will be 8, 9, 10, 12, 30, or 120FPS
It will not have video features, or it will
It will shoot 4K video, or not
It will have GPS, or not
It will have WiFi, or not
It will have a built in flash, or not
It will have an articulated screen, or not
It will have a touchscreen, or not
It will have a 1DX style top plate, or not

I will sleep better tonight knowing that the specs have been so well defined  ..... or not....


----------



## Marauder (Jun 16, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> So the best that I can determine from this and other threads is that the 7d2 will have:
> 
> Either an APS-C sensor, APS-H, or FF
> The sensor will either be normal, DPAF, or a Foveron type
> ...




LOL We also know that some will pout and not buy it regardless of how capable it is, to Canon's everlasting sorrow, if it does not follow form factor _________________(fill in the blank). Or more accurately, if it DOES follow form factor _____________. :


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 16, 2014)

Steve said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > P mode can be used as a modified Av mode, in that you can still override the aperture setting and also compensate. Used this way it can be useful. So it's not as much for 'losers' as you might at first think.
> ...



People get to the same result via different routes, that is the beauty and complexity of the human mind. I can shoot in any mode and get what I want, to me Av, Tv, M and shiftable P are all the same assuming you also have EV compensation. It doesn't matter how your brain gets there, some people just find it easier to work one way over another. 

I started with a shutter priority camera, everything I did was Tv, but I quickly realised that even for situations where shutter speed was a priority and I wanted as fast as a SS as possible it would actually be easier to use Av, just set the aperture to the max value and the SS will end up as high as the situation would allow. My next camera was a multi mode camera, I tried all modes and just found some situations lent themselves to one mode over another.

P mode can be very good, particularly if you are out of your depth, overwhelmed, unsafe, uncomfortable, thinking about other stuff like composition, lighting, the people you are shooting, your second shooter, everybody else in the area etc and particularly if you shoot RAW and have some exposure latitude. Joe Buissink is a $10,000+ a day wedding shooter, he shoots exclusively in P mode. People who deride P mode are idiots, they either don't understand what it is, or think there is some cool factor to "I only shoot in M" nonsense, it is about the pictures, not how you selected the dials on your camera, they only adjust ss, aperture, and iso, but you choose what ss, aperture, and iso. 

All modes give you the same amount of control, apart from the green square, and I never owned a camera with one of them.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 16, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> ...People who deride P mode are idiots, they either don't understand what it is, or think there is some cool factor to "I only shoot in M" nonsense, it is about the pictures, not how you selected the dials on your camera, they only adjust ss, aperture, and iso, but you choose what ss, aperture, and iso.
> 
> All modes give you the same amount of control, apart from the green square, and I never owned a camera with one of them.



Well said. Although I did use the Green Square today. After a woman handed me her Nikon to take some pictures of her and her family she insisted on taking pictures of my wife and I with my camera. Since it is set to back-button focus, I remembered that the Green Square would override back button focus. So, yes, I do use the Green Square when appropriate.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 16, 2014)

Marauder said:


> I'm rather surprised no one has captured a picture of a 7D2 at the World Cup yet---if they're really there!



As speculated in the neighboring thread about pre-production models, the earlier incarnations are most likely inside the old camera body so you won't recognize the 7d2 from the outside.



privatebydesign said:


> People who deride
> P mode are idiots



Fyi Magic Lantern users: There's a module called "autoexpo" which is essentially P mode, but it lets you pre-set av/tv/iso for every lv value. Afaik it doesn't support shifting (yet) and doesn't take the lens' focal length into consideration, but if you exactly know what settings you want for what available light I'm reading it's very useful.


----------



## Sporgon (Jun 16, 2014)

Steve said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > P mode can be used as a modified Av mode, in that you can still override the aperture setting and also compensate. Used this way it can be useful. So it's not as much for 'losers' as you might at first think.
> ...



Fair question; PBD has covered much in his post above. P allows you to operate broadly as Av, taking control of aperture and iso with a variation on EC. However P will revert back to a 'middle ground' ss/ap balance as soon as the camera is idle. Depending on your situation this may or may not be an advantage in a swiftly changing environment such as parts of a wedding - except when you put a flash on the camera you loose this control. I'm not sure how someone shooting a wedding in P mode deals with this.

The one mode I have never used on digital is Tv. In the film days when you had a certain ISO loaded you might want to have the ss locked. However since digital and immediate access to ISO variation I find it is much better to ensure the ISO is suitable to allow the ss I require at the appropriate aperture. DoF is always important, shallow or deep depending upon the result you want, so to be quite honest I personally have more use for P mode in a modern camera than Tv. 

As unfocused says, green box is useful when handing a customised camera to someone to use. If I hand my camera to my wife I put it in green box mode.

For myself, with the exception of shooting panoramics, by far the most used mode is Av. I even use Av when working from a hand held incident light meter reading. Set the required aperture then compensate to shoot at the incident meter reading. If I am trying to nail an exposure and 'picture style' in camera when shooting around 500 images at an event, this saves _so_ much time in post.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Jun 16, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > I'm rather surprised no one has captured a picture of a 7D2 at the World Cup yet---if they're really there!
> ...



To quote two very famous and widely regarded wedding photographers, Yervant and Jeff Ascough (the main input who directed Canon to spec the 5DIII). Yervant uses P all the time, Jeff uses M all the time. 
Both are highly regarded, but I know who's photos I prefer. 

Another great photograher who I have a lot of time for is Guy Edwardes. He's a M user, with the occasional Av use. Go check out his diary page for some of the finest landscapes, flowers and wildlife I've yet to see. 

Personally I see little use for P, my default is AV with exposure compensation applied. But I know many other pros who feel the same about M, once fully mastered, there is little reason to have any other mode. My personal view is that Av or Tv is faster to operate and less of hassle in environments with constant lighting changes / challenges. Another useful feature of M is that it can be used as an "Iso Priority" (Iv?) mode if "Auto iso" in engaged. Not my bag, but I've used on the odd occasions. 
As for Ken Rockwell and his "P is for professionals" comment....yeah right....becareful of what you read on the internet....especially if the advice is for free? I certainly wouldn't go on one of his workshops.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 16, 2014)

To imply any differences between Yervant and Jeff Ascough images are down to program mode choice is really, really wrong.

Yervant's images are post process driven, Ascough is a natural light narrow dof "B&W gritty" look. To suggest that Ascough couldn't take exactly the same images he does in M using Av is disingenuous, he is a master of his craft. If you watch some of his videos you would realise he actually relies on RAW post capability much more than a slide film shooter ever would, but people who come from a B&W film background do that, they generalize exposure and rely on the depth in the file, and that is a technique that lends itself to M mode shooting.

I pointed out Joe Buissink as a user of P mode just to illustrate that some high end pros work with it quite happily, not that you need to use one mode over another to get a style of image.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Jun 16, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> To imply any differences between Yervant and Jeff Ascough images are down to program mode choice is really, really wrong.
> 
> Yervant's images are post process driven, Ascough is a natural light narrow dof "B&W gritty" look. To suggest that Ascough couldn't take exactly the same images he does in M using Av is disingenuous, he is a master of his craft. If you watch some of his videos you would realise he actually relies on RAW post capability much more than a slide film shooter ever would, but people who come from a B&W film background do that, they generalize exposure and rely on the depth in the file, and that is a technique that lends itself to M mode shooting.
> 
> I pointed out Joe Buissink as a user of P mode just to illustrate that some high end pros work with it quite happily, not that you need to use one mode over another to get a style of image.



Wow, you fly off the handle quickly! Perhapse you mis read my post. That's not what I was alluding to at all. I was pointing out that some photographers choose different modes to others regaqrdless of popularity or success. I prefer Jeff's style and generally agree with his point of views, at a wedding you need to meter for each room manually and stick to that metering so the exposure is consistent from frame to frame. It cuts down post prodding images where the meter has jumped about all over the place. I know Jeff quite well from when we were both on a private forum together. While I admire Yervant's work and success, his work is generally not my style or inspiration. I like George Weir too, again another photojournalist who uses M mode. Maybe it's PJ thang vs the art crowd? I'm just musing out loud here.


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 16, 2014)

I think things change too. As metering gets better and better, and more and more accurate, auto ISO, IMO, will become more popular. The 1Dx's metering in all metering modes is super, super accurate whereas earlier models not so much. So I think people's preferences may change as technology improves.


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## ahsanford (Jun 16, 2014)

bdunbar79 said:


> I think things change too. As metering gets better and better, and more and more accurate, auto ISO, IMO, will become more popular. The 1Dx's metering in all metering modes is super, super accurate whereas earlier models not so much. So I think people's preferences may change as technology improves.



I think our favorite spot on the mode dial is a religious matter -- it often defines our first priority to the shot and everything else follows. Mine is locked on Av unless (a) I deliberately want a specific shutter (< 1% of the time) or (b) I've got the flash on in really low light and I go to M. It's not right, it's not wrong. It's what I do. Each of us has our own sensibilities to follow.

But ISO is different to me. It's the part of the triangle I am most flexible on to get the rest of the settings where I want them. I bounce all over the place on ISO, even using Auto ISO (gated to 1/(lens FL) shutter) in difficult / rapidly changing lighting or in spur-of-the-moment shooting environments.

- A


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## AvTvM (Jun 16, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > I think things change too. As metering gets better and better, and more and more accurate, auto ISO, IMO, will become more popular. The 1Dx's metering in all metering modes is super, super accurate whereas earlier models not so much. So I think people's preferences may change as technology improves.
> ...



also my approach. 
Focus plane and Aperture always control look & composition of an image. Shutter speed only if subjects and/or camera are moving. ISO is irrelevant for composition, its only about "technical" image quality and if we keep it within our "tolerance levels", its the least important of the the 4 shooting parameters. That's why better implementation of Auto-ISO in Canon EOS cameras is so crucial [eg. "M + Auto-ISO + working EV compensation" not only on 1-series cameras] ... to have a good tool to handle quickly changing lighting situations that are not under our immediate control.


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> Fair question; (P mode stuff)



Eh, it still doesn't really sound that useful. I don't shoot weddings though so... *shrugs* Seems to me it would be just as easy and fast to use Av + Auto ISO and then still have a bit more control.



> The one mode I have never used on digital is Tv.



Tv seems most useful for sports or concert photography where you want a hard floor on your shutter to make sure you stop the action.



GMCPhotographics said:


> As for Ken Rockwell and his "P is for professionals" comment....yeah right....becareful of what you read on the internet....especially if the advice is for free? I certainly wouldn't go on one of his workshops.



I was being sarcastic. KRock is garbage.

Oh and not really to knock that Joe Buissink dude but when I looked him up it sounds like he just has a crew of people blasting away nonstop in the general vicinity of things happening and just picks out the random good shots to send to the customer. I guess P mode works good for that style? Also, google autocompletes "Joe Buissink" with "program mode" lol.


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## Austin (Jun 17, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> People who deride P mode are idiots



...Or they are just joking, like I was. 

And what a tangent that crack took this thread on. As was mentioned, P mode is great if you are just handing your camera to somone.

Or if you just don't have the time to change settings, and you need to me snapping away in the next second P mode is nice and safe. (AV would be fine for that too, but if your ISO happens to be set to something like 100, you might have some blurry pictures.) That is, if I toss you a camera and tell you Tom Cruise will be walking through the door in the next second, switching it to P mode and putting the camera straight to your eye would be a good move.

Full M is great, and there's real sport in it - that's why I use it - but if you are a pap trying to land THE shot in trickey lighting, you'd be crazy to use it without a flash.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 17, 2014)

I have a sense of humour too, I meant people who do actually deride P mode, and there are many who mean it.


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## unfocused (Jun 17, 2014)

An aside: People shouldn't be giving our friend Ken Rockwell so much credit. _"'P' is for professionals"_ is a saying that has been around for a long time and certainly wasn't invented by him.

It's essentially the digital version of _"f8 and be there."_ 

Point being that under rapidly changing conditions when you have no idea what you might encounter next, having the camera set so that it gives you the best odds for a usable shot is important if your livelihood depends on bringing back the shot. I'm guessing that most of the "I only use manual" crowd have never experienced that kind of pressure.


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## NancyP (Jun 17, 2014)

Well, I am an old-time amateur, grew up with all-manual with only a TTL light meter needle, still think and shoot in manual mode when shooting static subjects (landscape and macro). I haven't tried P. I use Av when birding, keeping an eye on the shutter speed, should look into auto-ISO. If I were doing event or pj work, I would likely use P, just to free up brain space for interaction with subjects.


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## tayassu (Jun 17, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> I think our favorite spot on the mode dial is a religious matter -- it often defines our first priority to the shot and everything else follows. Mine is locked on Av unless (a) I deliberately want a specific shutter (< 1% of the time) or (b) I've got the flash on in really low light and I go to M. It's not right, it's not wrong. It's what I do. Each of us has our own sensibilities to follow.



+1
Exactly what I do!!
But unlike you I hate to use AUTO ISO on my 7D as i often find it not to select high enough ISO's. I like the auto-metering of my camera, I seldom use spot metering, only in extremely different lit situations where I would need DR my camera can't offer.


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## AvTvM (Jun 17, 2014)

tayassu said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I think our favorite spot on the mode dial is a religious matter -- it often defines our first priority to the shot and everything else follows. Mine is locked on Av unless (a) I deliberately want a specific shutter (< 1% of the time) or (b) I've got the flash on in really low light and I go to M. It's not right, it's not wrong. It's what I do. Each of us has our own sensibilities to follow.
> ...



Auto-ISO on the 7D unfortunately is still limited, even after firmware update 2.0 
Only 5D 3 and 1-series have fully functional Auto-ISO. sigh.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 17, 2014)

jrista said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > As a quick counter point... there are certain images that are really hard to get... a ball being compressed by a bat at the moment of contact, a diver just before he puts his fields in the water, etc.
> ...



12fps isn't even close to grabbing bat on ball for you, not even remotely close! you still need to self time that, you'd need much higher fps just to guarantee a SINGLE frame with ball on bat


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 17, 2014)

jrista said:


> Regarding flash...no, however I have never really needed flash for my bird and wildlife photography. I don't think flash is used all that much with sports either.



Maybe not during action most of the time, but there are plenty of other circumstances shooting sports an emergency flash could be handy for sure! I once got an out of the blue call to shoot the Stanley Cup, no time to grab more equipment, luckily I had a non-pro body at the moment so I had a built-in flash because one quick shot they wanted had the cup and people holding it backlit.

And who says you can't use your 7D2 for all shots, why is it so bad for it to give you a little fill for a sudden snap shot of some friends on a trip or when you are out and boom out of nowhere a tree frog at night, ec. etc.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 17, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> ...who says you can't use your 7D2 for all shots,



Who says you can?!? At this point I can safely say that you can use your 7D2 for any shots you take while riding on the back of unicorn.


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## jrista (Jun 17, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > ...who says you can't use your 7D2 for all shots,
> ...



You could even take shots of the marshmallows that unicorn is crapping out as it flys around on it's magical cloud.


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## AvTvM (Jun 17, 2014)

jrista said:


> You could even take shots of the marshmallows that unicorn is crapping out as it flys around on it's magical cloud.



Hehehe! 

Unfortunately Canon's unicorns are of the non-aviatory kind.


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## Marauder (Jun 17, 2014)

jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



LOL "May the magic-marshmallow crapping Unicorn of luck, crap all over your day, bringing happiness and joy..."


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## Menace (Jun 17, 2014)

Marauder said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Thanks - now I know where marshmallows come from. CR is full of useful general knowledge. (Tongue in cheek)


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## Marauder (Jun 17, 2014)

Menace said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 18, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > You could even take shots of the marshmallows that unicorn is crapping out as it flys around on it's magical cloud.
> ...



And non-migratory I suspect?


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