# No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

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<p><strong>A camera for 2012?

</strong>Apparently the 5D Mark III is not yet a finalized product and there are still 2 decisions to be made before the product is ready for consumption.</p>
<ol>
<li>Split the 5D line into a still camera and an advanced video feature camera.</li>
<li>A camera between the 5D Mark III and 1D</li>
</ol>
<p>It was also mentioned the still and video teams within Canon is very much separate and there is no overlap between the two departments. There could be some internal shakeup soon in that regard.</p>
<p>Do not expect a new 1D/1Ds camera to advance video functionality all that much.</p>
<p>February 2012 would be the earliest for an announcement that will address the 5D line.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
<p><em><a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/583953-REG/Canon_2764B003_EOS_5D_Mark_II.html?BI=2466&KBID=3296">5D Mark II for $2499 at B&H</a></em>
```


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2011)

You mean the 5DIII _won't_ be released before the 1DsIV? Shocking, simply shocking. 



Canon Rumors said:


> It was also mentioned the still and video teams within Canon is very much separate and there is no overlap between the two departments.



Does this refer to the dSLR group vs. the camcorder group? Presumably, the dSLR group is concerned with video for that product line. 



Canon Rumors said:


> February 2012 would be the earliest for an announcement that will address the 5D line.



So, everyone who said, "I'm not getting a 5DII because the 5DIII is coming out soon," keep on waiting. Because as we all know, vaporware cameras take wonderful pictures, don't they?


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## Peter Canon (Jul 26, 2011)

So glad I stopped waiting and got a 7D a month back to take pictures of my new baby.


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## Gothmoth (Jul 26, 2011)

> 1.Split the 5D line into a still camera and an advanced video feature camera.



that will not happen and everyone who is spreading such a rumor has no clue how things at canon work.


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## Bob Howland (Jul 26, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> You mean the 5DIII _won't_ be released before the 1DsIV? Shocking, simply shocking.



What if there never is a 1Ds4 but there is a merged 1D5 (FF 28MP @ 6FPS with internal cropping to APS-H @10FPS, $5500) introduced in about a month, is your prediction right or wrong? And what exactly is a 5D3? Even Canon doesn't seem to know. What if Canon introduces a $3000 FF 16-20MP Lord of Darkness camera simultaneously with the 1D5?

I'm less critical than I may sound but, if you're going to make predictions, please make them with enough detail that we can determine if they're right or wrong.


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## WarStreet (Jul 26, 2011)

Canon Rumors said:


> 1. Split the 5D line into a still camera and an advanced video feature camera.



On my opinion, the advantage of video in DSLR is the ability to use the FF DSLR technology to add video as a 'free' bonus. Creating a 5D version with video as a *priority* sounds odd. Why 5D ? Why not a specialised video camera with FF sensor and EF lens compatibility ? I think the rumor is false and that it is just a guess, not from a real informed person. 



Canon Rumors said:


> 2. A camera between the 5D Mark III and 1D



This makes much more sense, resolution / speed priority


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## willhuff.net (Jul 26, 2011)

This is actually good news for me because I just bought a 7D last night as a backup body, and I wasn't happy about it because I wanted to use those funds towards a new FF body. Now I know that's going to be quite a ways off.


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## bikersbeard (Jul 26, 2011)

febuary at the earliest... more like next summer then...


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## awinphoto (Jul 26, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > You mean the 5DIII _won't_ be released before the 1DsIV? Shocking, simply shocking.
> ...



Then again CR never claimed a new flagship was coming soon period, just that the 5D MIII wont be until feb... So maybe the 5D still will be released before the 1ds. ;D The only hint about the 1ds was it was removed from the website... didn't that happen some time last year and then reappeared a few days later?


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## awinphoto (Jul 26, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > February 2012 would be the earliest for an announcement that will address the 5D line.
> ...



I can wait with what I got... I still dont want/need to buy the 5DII yet. Now if i didn't have CPS then it could force my hand in the purchase but until then, I can wait. As long as my clients are happy with my work so far.


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## c-law (Jul 26, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > You mean the 5DIII _won't_ be released before the 1DsIV? Shocking, simply shocking.
> ...


In my mind, a 1Ds is any big bodied, built like a tank model with FF, high megapixels and top AF. A 1D would be the same body but high FPS instead of high MP. Usually this is gained at the expense of sensor size. If they release the merged camera and call it a 1D, then whichever name they decided to call it, it'd still be a 1DsIV and a 1DV if it met both those needs.

Chris


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## x-vision (Jul 26, 2011)

Gothmoth said:


> > 1.Split the 5D line into a still camera and an advanced video feature camera.
> 
> 
> 
> that will not happen and everyone who is spreading such a rumor has no clue how things at canon work.



Exactly !!!

The 5D-split rumor first surfaced some time ago but now has been taken to the next level.
Canon is now presented as being strong but confused - wondering what to do with (the success of) the 5DII.

Give me a break, please. 

The 1DV, 5DIII, and 7DII have been carefully planned long time ago.
No inside knowledge is needed to understand that - just simple understanding of marketing and product positioning.


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## Sherwin (Jul 26, 2011)

With a very aggressive Sony standing by, and Nikon with major release by the end of August, I don't think things look good for Canon at this moment. They are falling behind of their competitors. We have been talking about those baby steps Canon made in the past. For example, if we take 30D 40D 50D 60D into consideration, could you think of anything as innovative as, say, semi-translucent mirror or EVF? As one of the poster said, Canon's goal is to make money. It is a valid goal for any corporation. Though I would expect the company will make innovation and bring new, better product to the market to get customers willing to pay the price, in time. I hope both Sony and Nikon bring out good product in the near future so that Canon could start to feel the pressure, if they have not yet.


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## x-vision (Jul 26, 2011)

documentaryman said:


> OK, how do things work at Canon?



By all accounts, Canon is a well managed corporation with a very good understanding of their market. 

The whole idea of splitting the 5D into separate stills and video models is just silly. 
It's a wet dream from someone who bought a 5DII instead of a RED - and quickly realized the shortcomings of a DSLR for film/video.

If Canon is to ever target the RED market, they will have a proper RED competitor, not a 5DII clone. 
The catch is, this will not be a $2,500 model as the wet-dreamer hopes. Try $10,000 or maybe even $20,000. 

Such a model will also come from the video division and will have an adapter for EF lenses.
That's how things work at well managed corporations with a very good understanding of their market.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2011)

Sherwin said:


> I don't think things look good for Canon at this moment. They are falling behind of their competitors.



For dSLRs, Canon has 44.5 percent of the market share, followed by Nikon with 29.8 percent and Sony with 11.9 percent (link). Including the PowerShot line, Canon is the #1 manufacturer of cameras in the world. How exactly are they falling behind?


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## polpaulin (Jul 26, 2011)

I just hope the 1Ds Mark IV will be a PRO *photo*-camera not a video-toy


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 26, 2011)

polpaulin said:


> I just hope the 1Ds Mark IV will be a PRO *photo*-camera not a video-toy



Although I only shoot stills, I also recognize that video has become a big part of professional photographers work. PJ's, and wedding photographers use video because the customers demand it. Camera makers provide it because customers demand it. Documentary makers, commercial photography, television, and even feature films now use HDDSLRS, its hardly a toy, its a billion dollar industry.

I find that I do not have to use video if I do not want to, and my camera makes still photos just fine.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 26, 2011)

I hope this sources is not really a CR2 source otherwise Canon sounds to be in deep trouble.
Options #1 is just dumb (unless it is just being explained poorly, which may be the case). The video special option might do well, although it would now be arriving a bit late but for the stills plus video shooter the split sounds pretty horrendous. Option #2 sounds nice (if it also has advanced video).

The talk that the next 1 series won't advance video much is frightening. Does that mean still no Digic V for it? Or Digic V is still too slow to even do properly downsampling for video? Are they still to scared or incompetent to add basic things like even hackers with no source code added to 5D2 video?? Some potentially scary implications here and will their foot dragging and failure to see the big picture they are pretty much going to be have spoiled their chances here and quickly fall back to being irrelevant in the video world at this rate.

Hopefully much of this is really CR0 or just lost in translation. But some of the insanely arrogant things that some in Canon management said, I believe at some UK show, a few years ago certainly gives one pause as to whether they have a clue up top (we are years and years ahead of Nikon for FF and can sit on our throne and watch and laugh.... and oops boom the D700 and such arrive like just months later hah; not evening thinking ot put in manual controls for video for the 5D2 with the initial firmware, still refusing to outline histogram so you can see it when shooting outside under the sun, etc.). Granted they have done lots of great stuff too and certainly Nikon had been way behind in all ways for some time but....


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## Fleetie (Jul 26, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> polpaulin said:
> 
> 
> > I just hope the 1Ds Mark IV will be a PRO *photo*-camera not a video-toy
> ...



No, I agree with polpaulin, above.

I'm a stills-only photographer, and if I drop Â£2500 to Â£3000 of my hard-earned/ill-gotten on a 5D3, I'd prefer most of that money to go into stills-photography-performance-and-spec, not video-tomfoolery.

I don't wanna be buying a camera where Â£1500 of its price goes into amortising the R&D spent on developing the video features.

I want it to be mainly a stills camera, and I want Canon to concentrate on stills performance. ISO performance, mainly, given that its MPix count will be better than the 18MPix of my current 7D. I want it to be a "Prince Of Darkness".

I don't want the money I spend on it being "diluted" on video features I won't use.


Martin


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## bornshooter (Jul 26, 2011)

yep iagree i have no interest in the video aspect of things i want it to be a superb stills camera if they throw in video thats a bonus but i will rarely use it if at all and i want a 5d mk3 this year canon please i wanna treat myself for xmas


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## gene_can_sing (Jul 26, 2011)

As a video guy, I want to 5D to be SPLIT into 2 cameras with one that is optimized for video. One of the main reasons for the 5D2 huge success was video, and Canon knows that. It's very obvious from Canonrumors.com, that you cannot make both camps happy with one camera.

Personally, after using the DSLRs I now prefer the form factor over traditional video cameras. The DSLRs are small and so easy to use and are great for stealth shots. Going back to a bulky camcorder would be a real drag.

But I would be happy if they release a Video Camera also (full frame preferably). Or just an entirely new video oriented DSLR.

I hope Canon does something quick in the video department. They are seriously falling behind Sony and Panasonic, and with Nikon set to release some new cameras, Canon is looking really dated. Sony especially, is really tempting lately and once people switch it's hard to go back, so Canon needs to act SOONER than later. The only thing Canon video has going for it at this moment are the lenses. The bodies are basically a relic from another era at this point.

DP Philip Bloom wrote a great article on the need for Canon to act NOW, or risk losing serious market share in the video world because so much is starting to happen in that arena. A good read.

http://philipbloom.net/2011/07/21/the-state-of-play/

5D3 with video by next summer will be too late for a lot of people who will have switched to Sony or Panny by then.

In terms of video, I really agree with what LetTheRightLensIn said above. Canon management is really fumbling it just looks like they are dragging their feet when they need to make forward looking, decisive decision instead of the half-ass measures they been doing the last few years, mostly in regards to video. I'm sure they are the biggest camera company in the world, but that's only because they have the biggest name which they are living off of. Their Camera Bodies certainly are NO longer the best. for either stills or video.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 26, 2011)

Fleetie said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > polpaulin said:
> ...



I believe you are going overboard about how much extra cost the video adds.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 26, 2011)

gene_can_sing said:


> As a video guy, I want to 5D to be SPLIT into 2 cameras with one that is optimized for video. One of the main reasons for the 5D2 huge success was video, and Canon knows that. It's very obvious from Canonrumors.com, that you cannot make both camps happy with one camera.
> 
> Personally, after using the DSLRs I now prefer the form factor over traditional video cameras. The DSLRs are small and so easy to use and are great for stealth shots. Going back to a bulky camcorder would be a real drag.
> 
> ...



Exactly they have already just about blown it.

That said I don't want some special camera that has all the video features and just dregs tossed into the rest. Give them all the same quality and features. If you want to make one with special video optimized form factor and attachments, sure, but don't crippled the quality and controls in the more still form factored models otherwise their still form factor bodies will look pretty sad.


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## gene_can_sing (Jul 26, 2011)

I think they should just release a video-centric Full Frame DSLR around the SAME time as the next 1DS, hopefully in September or October.

For stills, the 5D2 is still pretty good. For video, Canon really needs some new life and SOON, and by releasing a video DSLR it would re-assure the video people who heavily invested in Canon lenses, that they made the right choice, which has been seriously questioned in the last year with Canon's lack of initiative.

A video DSLR or camcorder by October would solve that. I personally would prefer a DSLR over a camcorder just because I now prefer the form factor.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2011)

dilbert said:


> Please provide quotes, justification, etc, for your last sentence.



Wait, wait...you were expecting something other than an opinion passed off as factual?  Silly dilbert...


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## gene_can_sing (Jul 26, 2011)

dilbert said:


> gene_can_sing said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...




Dilbert, just READ the article and all the comments, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to see the writing is on the wall for Canon in regards to video. For stills Canon will reign supreme but video is in a flux. I'd like to hope that Canon would want to capitalized on other markets, but it just doesn't seem like it.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Wait, wait...you were expecting something other than an opinion passed off as factual? Silly dilbert...



Maybe one person's opinion is an opinion, but if two people have the same opinion, _then_ it's fact. Especially if one of them is a blogger. Because we know all of their information is always factual, right?


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## Flemming (Jul 26, 2011)

Fleetie said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > polpaulin said:
> ...



I do not think it is as simple as that. People buying the 5D for the video features are also financing the stills features. So the fact might actually be that they can offer the total package for less money than if they had to develop two specialised cameras (chips, sensors, bodies, software).

Also, unless Canon is dumb the R&D they spend in developing video features in sensors, chipsets and software will be amortised over many models and generations and since they will have to develop video technology anyways it will not cost that much to add it to the 5D.

Personally I hope for a 5D mkIII that will have faster FPS, better auto focus and slightly improved video. 


Kind regards
Flemming


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 26, 2011)

dilbert said:


> Listen to the interview with Gale Tattersall (the guy that directed the episode of House using the 5D Mark2.) What lenses did the professionals use? Canon. What message does that send to amateurs that want to shoot video on a 5D Mark2? Use Canon lenses.



Episode? It was more than one. After shooting the season 6 finale on the 5DII, the producers went on to shoot the entire 7th season of the show on 5DIIs. 

The blogger gene_can_sing linked to, himself, used Canon dSLRs to shoot pick-up footage for Red Tails, a forthcoming film that's a pet project of George Lucas. Although he's not the director, Lucas stepped into that role for the period of time in which the dSLRs were used for shooting. That, too, sends a pretty clear message that even people like the fictional amalgam, "Fred," can hear loud and clear.


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## UncleFester (Jul 26, 2011)

Personally I hope for a 5D mkIII that will have faster FPS, better auto focus and slightly improved video. 


Kind regards
Flemming
[/quote]

This is the most logical progression for the 5D series. It is only off by this much for being a spectacular mid-range camera...for photographers.


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## sandro (Jul 26, 2011)

Honestly,
I just want what the Gh2 does but with canon sensor size + lenses, period. Nothing special in 2011 really :S It's not like they have to product something impossible to do or difficult
Panasonic did it after 2y with the GH1 (BTW the GH1 alone with the hack was better than the current Canons) and Canon couldn't do it since the DIGIC 4 came out? What the hell have they been doing?


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## Sherwin (Jul 26, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sherwin said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think things look good for Canon at this moment. They are falling behind of their competitors.
> ...



I thought we were talking about product development and future market, no? Nikon only has the rumored 8/27 product release date. Sony A77 is confirmed which is aiming at the 7D. Yes, there is no imminent threat, not yet. But can Canon's 2010 market share translate into that they have nothing to worry about and can delay the 5D3 for another year? I highly doubt it.


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## WarStreet (Jul 26, 2011)

Sherwin said:


> I thought we were talking about product development and future market, no? Nikon only has the rumored 8/27 product release date. Sony A77 is confirmed which is aiming at the 7D. Yes, there is no imminent threat, not yet. But can Canon's 2010 market share translate into that they have nothing to worry about and can delay the 5D3 for another year? I highly doubt it.



The 'delay' is not because they have a lead, but to continue leading in the future. Release the camera too early, and we can get lower features for the next 3 years, such as the D700 and A900 lack of video. I think Nikon, Sony and Canon entry level FF will be released during the same period, with not more than 3 months from each other. Keep in mind that the D700 is the oldest and expect this one to be released first.


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## RSBJ (Jul 26, 2011)

Signed up to put in my two cents on the wish list. In order of priority:

Video autofocusing.
Significantly better DR by say...at least 1.5 stops.
Very clean images at high ISO's. Perhaps 4 stops better than we have with the 5dII.
Better autofocus
>5 FPS
Slightly more resolution, but not at the expense of the previous high ISO performance or DR requirements.

I would pay much more than a paid for my II to get it, and I'm sure I'd have to.


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## unfocused (Jul 27, 2011)

Remember you read it here first. Quoting myself from June: 



> If there is a divergence between video and still models of the 5D (or any other line), I believe it will be for design and engineering reasons, not marketing. It may be that Canon feels it cannot simultaneously optimize performance for both stills and video in the same camera. If that's the case, they may be forced to offer one version optimized for stills (with video capability) and one version optimized for video (with still capability). I think they would be loathe to do that, but design limitations could force that to happen.



Still the case with this latest rumor. Canon does not want to lose either the still or the video customers of the 5D, and I'm sure they'd rather be able to sell a single model to both. But, if the engineering design needs of one conflicts with that of the other, they may be forced to offer two versions.


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## april (Jul 27, 2011)

split the 5D? 
1) it's totally crazy if canon releases a camera with a advanced video tech. for sure i will call it videocam not a DSLR and it's not made for me since i'm not a videographer 
2) if canon releases a DSLR with no video capabilities then they'll call it 50D mark II 

hahahahaha


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## ronderick (Jul 27, 2011)

During my friend's wedding a while ago, I had a chance to speak to one of the photographers he hired for the event. It turns out that the young photographer started a studio with several friends, and their main tool is several 5D2s. 

To make a long story short, one of their major sales point was to shoot the before-noon actions (wife saying goodbye to her family, groom arrives at bride's house to pick her up, ceremony at the church, etc.) in both video and stills, do the edit work during the afternoon, and make the clip ready for a wedding banquet premiere. For a case like this, they need several 5D2s, and their other equipments are centered on these bodies. 

Well, my friend was very impressed with their service and ended up recommending them to other people.

===

OK, why the long anecdote?

I don't know about the US, but here I think there are up-and-coming photographers finding new business models with the 5D2, and I think the market is slowly changing to expect the video+photo all-in-one service from the wedding photographers (needless to say, the groom got the recommendation of the studio from another satisfied client).

Echoing other people on the forum, the 5D2 is a camera which is a tool - it's just that it opens up the possibility of combining the capability of great stills with the capability of great video into one body. I think even today a lot of people are still exploring new possibilities of what the 5D2 offers, and some even building a professional career by starting off with a hefty investment. 

So yes, in this way I think with all the fanfare for the 5D2 out of the way after so many years, people are still buying this well-received body. With so many users out there, I think there's a pretty well-rounded verdict on its strengths and weaknesses. 

The older photographers in my office often lament about how their older film bodies were able to last them years. While most people today expect electronic products to be upgraded in short cycles, it seems a bit strange that people are being excited about Canon NOT upgrading their product.

I think it's all great for the company for going after profits, but unless ur a stockholder, what does a company's market share have to do with us? 

While we have little say over the product decisions, we always have the ability to sell our stuff if we don't like it. It's not like we're bonded to it for the rest of eternity.

Frankly, I rather have a trustworthy body in my hand that behaves according to my expectation and giving me no surprises. It's also great if I can find well-rounded support from Canon and other 3rd party support for it (lenses, accessories, etc.).

It's fun to listen to rumors about 5D3, but why get upset about it when nothing's written in stone? The older model still works fine, right?

Gears are important, but there are also things that can only come about if the tools have been around long enough for people to use it thoroughly. It seems like the idea that 'products are made to last' has been all but forgotten by the onslaught of modern consumerism 

...just my 2 cents.


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## gene_can_sing (Jul 27, 2011)

dilbert said:


> gene_can_sing said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Dilbert, here's what Philip Bloom (who was one of Canon's biggest proponents and one of the reasons why Canon sold tons of 5D2 to video shooters) said.

Philip wrote: "This is what Canon needs to do with their generation 2, and it needs to be done SOON. No line skipping. No moire, no aliasing, a headphone jack. Live, adjustable audio meters on screen. A much better codec. I also still shoot a lot on my GH2, as itâ€™s so damn small and the image is just so stunning. I want my Canons to get better, especially my 5DmkII!! We havenâ€™t seen the best of what DSLRs can give us yet â€“ as I said, Canon is still on generation 1. I just really want them to HURRY UP!"

Also, read the numerous comments. Nearly everyone who responded wants Canon video to get their %*$& together and release something now. Philip has basically moved on from the Canons to the Panasonics and Sonys. He wants to keep using Canon, but he doesn't have a reason at this moment because the video tech is so OLD.

Not sure how much clearer you need it. While the company has great lenses, the bodies (at least from a video perspective) are falling way behind and Panasonic and Sony are already eating into their sales. With rumors of no new video cameras until next summer, that is a lot of time for Canon sales to be eaten up.

Just because House MD shoots parts of the show on the 5D, doesn't mean that it's a perfect camera and that it needs no improvements. I'm sure if you asked Gale Tattersall, he'd have a list of improvements also, probably not too different than Philips: No moire, no aliasing, better codec. It's not much to ask for really, but Canon just does not want to do it.


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## UncleFester (Jul 27, 2011)

ronderick said:


> Gears are important, but there are also things that can only come about if the tools have been around long enough for people to use it thoroughly. It seems like the idea that 'products are made to last' has been all but forgotten by the onslaught of modern consumerism
> 
> ...just my 2 cents.




But there is nothing like the smell of a new camera ;D


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## Sherwin (Jul 27, 2011)

UncleFester said:


> ronderick said:
> 
> 
> > Gears are important, but there are also things that can only come about if the tools have been around long enough for people to use it thoroughly. It seems like the idea that 'products are made to last' has been all but forgotten by the onslaught of modern consumerism
> ...


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## Sherwin (Jul 27, 2011)

WarStreet said:


> Sherwin said:
> 
> 
> > I thought we were talking about product development and future market, no? Nikon only has the rumored 8/27 product release date. Sony A77 is confirmed which is aiming at the 7D. Yes, there is no imminent threat, not yet. But can Canon's 2010 market share translate into that they have nothing to worry about and can delay the 5D3 for another year? I highly doubt it.
> ...



I agree if we were having this conversation in mid-2010. Unfortunately Canon is almost certain to get into a defensive position once Nikon and Sony released their product in August. And we were talking about mid-2012 for the release of 5D3. IMHO, this will be too late and too little. As they said in Matrix: everything that has a beginning has an end. That includes the leading market share.


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## Blaze (Jul 27, 2011)

RSBJ said:


> Signed up to put in my two cents on the wish list. In order of priority:
> 
> Video autofocusing.
> Significantly better DR by say...at least 1.5 stops.
> ...



Your wish list is similar to mine, RSBJ, but I don't think 4 stops better at high ISO is going to happen any time soon. It may not even be within the realm of physical possibility given the quantum nature of light. My rough estimates put the top DSLRs currently on the market within about 3 stops of an ideal sensor limited only by photon shot noise. (No, I don't have any references handy for my back-of-the-envelope calculations.) I'd love to be wrong though. High ISO performance is vital to my needs.


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## NotABunny (Jul 27, 2011)

bikersbeard said:


> febuary at the earliest... more like next summer then...



Sony should also be around with their next FF model, so interesting times are coming.


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## macgregor mathers (Jul 27, 2011)

ronderick said:


> During my friend's wedding a while ago, I had a chance to speak to one of the photographers he hired for the event. It turns out that the young photographer started a studio with several friends, and their main tool is several 5D2s.
> 
> To make a long story short, one of their major sales point was to shoot the before-noon actions (wife saying goodbye to her family, groom arrives at bride's house to pick her up, ceremony at the church, etc.) in both video and stills, do the edit work during the afternoon, and make the clip ready for a wedding banquet premiere. For a case like this, they need several 5D2s, and their other equipments are centered on these bodies.



It pretty much the standard around here. In film days, photographers worked in pairs, each carrying two cameras (e.g. one with a wide lens & another with a standard telephoto lens). Now they have an extra video photographer working with them using some digital video camera. AFAIK, people around here shoot stills before the wedding, and shoot both stills & video during, a standard product being a wedding DVD (going down the aisle, exchanging rings, first dance, crowd dancing, etc, my sister made a living for a while editing those DVDs). I've seen stills showing pre-wedding preparations during the wedding, but not video.

I guess having dual purpose bodies as a benefit (versatility, price, lower learning curve, etc), but not a necessity.


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## Bob Howland (Jul 27, 2011)

RSBJ said:


> Signed up to put in my two cents on the wish list. In order of priority:
> 
> Video autofocusing.
> Significantly better DR by say...at least 1.5 stops.
> ...



Ah yes, a kindred spirit. First, four stops improvement at high ISO may be a bit too optimistic. I'd settle for something as good as the Nikon D3s. I think one stop improvement over that camera may be possible. As for dynamic range improvements, I'll take as much as I can get.

Second, regarding resolution, would you accept slightly lower resolution, perhaps to 16.9MP, if it got you dramatic improvements in high ISO image quality? That is one rumor that circulated at the beginning of this year.

Third, after reading this: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/06/photo-lenses-for-video-there-is-no-free-lunch I'm not sure how much I want video in my DSLR.

Fourth, given how good the 5D2 and D700 are and how old they both are, you may not have to pay more.

Fifth, I don't think it'll be called a 5DMk3. I think that name will be reserved for a 35-40MP studio/landscape camera.


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## Edwin Herdman (Jul 27, 2011)

Looking over the previous movie discussion (a lot of good info there from everyone, thanks!) I'll dump my own "wish list" as well:

First, it is clear that to make an EF mount (or similar) video system succeed, Canon will need either a PL to EF adapter (should be quite possible - Zeiss does this with the CP.2 and LWZ.2 lenses' interchangeable mounts), or a range of video-appropriate EF mount lenses. It also seems clear to me that as video and stills cameras have quite different requirements, to avoid bloated and unwieldy bodies it may become essentially unavoidable to create two different bodies. But I am still hopeful that they will make video as good as possible on the stills DSLRs, even at the expense of a few controls tailored for video even while other useful photographic controls remain buried in menus (or, gasp, not available at all).

My own top wishes for the 5D's stills camera successor:

- Better ISO without obvious banding (or blotches) and fewer hot spots in long exposures - or at least point out for users a better workflow path for creating dark frame subtraction (haven't fiddled with this in DPP but it would help a lot of nighttime photographers get better results on being educated about this feature).
- Better AF, at least equivalent in capability to the 7D isn't asking much assuming the same price point (I am not expecting a lower-specced full frame camera).
- Better mirror lock up and live view combination, and "video autofocusing" aka better and faster contrast detect AF
- >5 FPS also

Random thoughts on data transfer and the ISO / megapixels controversy:
The "lower resolution cameras have better noise performance" is simply a bad myth that has been debunked, again and again, but all the same there are still some problems with higher resolution, mainly slower operation and file size bloat. With the improvements in computers and computer interfaces of late, these appear likely to have improved yet still critically pressing. USB transfer rates will still be lengthened appreciably with larger files (i.e. going from 21MP to perhaps 32MP is going to be a roughly 50% longer file transfer, no matter if you are using USB2, USB3, or whatever), and if resolution keeps apace with hard drive and data transfer rates in commodity computers we arguably can't foresee a point where the major factor in file transfer length is the human speed of removing the card or plugging the camera in, although improvements in USB3 connectivity should make an impact.

I think that the speed difference will be most notable for SDHC/SDXC camera users who may move from using a camera with a slower SDHC-only, USB2 interface to a SDXC and USB3 interface; a 5D Mark III or better likely still uses CF but people already are buying the fastest cards possible so the main improvements may come in terms of the camera's internal data throughput potential (DIGIC V again?) and also the USB interface (if they use that, though it should be more enticing than before especially as USB3 card readers still seem thin on the ground). I think that RAW shooters suffer considerably more from this than JPEG shooters, for whom the new transfer rates of Class 10 SDHC cards and USB3, and faster CF cards, will probably be a really big difference.

Of course, a big point to be made is that a lot of people simply won't upgrade their support equipment; Class 10 SDHC cards are available yet I still use my Class 6 "Extreme III" cards which were pretty much best in class at the time, but now seem laughably small and overpriced (at the time) compared to newer offerings. Likewise, with some new 64GB CF cards passing the $1000 mark _per unit_, the pro shooters appear to have even steeper pricing requirements.


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## NotABunny (Jul 27, 2011)

Edwin Herdman said:


> point out for users a better workflow path for creating dark frame subtraction (haven't fiddled with this in DPP but it would help a lot of nighttime photographers get better results on being educated about this feature)



What do you mean? It's already automatic.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E30D/E30DA7.HTM



> In the EOS-30D though, while apparently still using the sophisticated on-chip noise reduction processing we saw in the 10D and the conventional dark-frame subtraction we saw in the 20D, Canon has added an Auto option as well. Accessed via Custom Function 02, the "Long exposure noise reduction" seems to operate just the same as dark-frame subtraction on other cameras we've seen. The new Auto mode allows the camera to decide whether the scene and the accompanying noise needs dark frame subtraction applied. Both Auto and On do their work only on shutter speeds of 1 second or longer.




The 5D has it as well: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5d/page24.asp



> The EOS 5D has typical 'dark frame subtraction' noise reduction for exposures of one second or longer, this can be enabled or disabled via the camera menu. Dark frame subtraction NR works by taking a second equal exposure immediately after the first but with the shutter closed, any hot pixel noise in this second exposure can then be subtracted from the first to produce a cleaner image.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 27, 2011)

dilbert said:


> Sorry, the above is just one person's opinion about the relative merits of bells and whistles on one toy with the bells and whistles on another toy.



toys? I wouldn't call 5D2, Sony F3 and so on toys.

and getting rid of nasty moire and other aliasing, certain even just semi-shadow detail compressed to muck is just asking for bells and whistles? You do realize that if you shoot small lights that are not flickering on and off that flickering on and off is how they appear on Canon DSLR video. Shoot ripples in a lake and moire city. Shoot a nature scene with fine tree branches and twigs and as the wind blows them watch how the smallest twigs pop into and out of existence! I mean you can still get very nice stuff out of it but you can also easily hit into all sorts of nasties.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 27, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> RSBJ said:
> 
> 
> > Signed up to put in my two cents on the wish list. In order of priority:
> ...



17MP vs 21MP is not going to give you a dramatic improvement for high ISO, it would be a barely even detectable difference and the low ISO DR might go DOWN by even slightly more.

But anyway I'd rather it be 24-27MP and 6.3fps than 35-40MP and 4fps.


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## J-Man (Jul 27, 2011)

Indeed these are interesting times, but they are also turbulent times, new tech is coming fast and furious, what we call a camera is being pulled in many directions, from cell phones, to HD video cameras the size of a deck of playing cards, slt, mirrorless, HDSLR, planing your multi-year market strategy during these times must be scary, you could literally kill your company(or at least the division) if you bet wrong.

Canon is facing pressure like it hasn't felt in a while in designing the replacements for the 5DMKII & 1DsMKIII,
I have a feeling that Canon was cough off guard at how popular video was in the 5DII, I would be surprised if the 5D & 1Ds R&D budget's haven't doubled or at least been increased, the competition over this next product cycle is going to be fierce, 
Nikon is bringing the D4 & D800, Sony with FF SLT, RED, Sony Emount video system, Panasonic has theirs.
I could see the 5DMKIII with 2 bodies as that's relatively cheap compared to the guts inside, so one will be like the 5DMKII, with improved ergonomics, and another that's, well uglier, but it will be modular, so you can attach things to, like lighting, mikes, lcd's and grips to name a few, call it the 5DVMKIII, I 

I'm sure the D3(s)/D700/SLT situation has caused Canon to rethink their strategy for those markets, which could result in a delay.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 27, 2011)

J-Man said:


> I'm sure the D3(s)/D700/SLT situation has caused Canon to rethink their strategy for those markets, which could result in a delay.



What is the situation you are referring to? Nikon has publically stated that they made a error with the D3S in not having enough resolution, and stated that in the future there will be a better balance of resolution versus ISO sensitivity. Apparently, there was a big exodus of the companies that buy cameras by the dozens to Canon for the higher resolution. Canons 5D MK II must be outselling the D700 by orders of magnitude.

I'm not aware of any technology break thru in the area of sensors, there are tradeoffs, and differences in marketing approach, but Canon is doing very well in DSLR sales.

I don't believe that there is a big enough improvement in camera sensors right now to justify a new model, I hate it when new models come out with no real improvements, so I'm happy to wait until they have something that will make me upgrade my 5D MK II.


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## derbrocks09 (Jul 27, 2011)

I'm one of those guys who has already left Canon for Panasonic and I know two friends who just left for the Sony FS100. Canon is about to lose huge if they don't produce a competitor to the AF100 and FS100 fast!

Once the Birger mount finally arrives then it will be even harder for Canon to win guys like me back.

FWIW I started with video with the 5d II and later bought a 7d as well. Sold them both when I got an AF100.

There are a LOT of people in my shoes, believe me.








dilbert said:


> gene_can_sing said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...


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## Edwin Herdman (Jul 27, 2011)

NotABunny said:


> Edwin Herdman said:
> 
> 
> > point out for users a better workflow path for creating dark frame subtraction (haven't fiddled with this in DPP but it would help a lot of nighttime photographers get better results on being educated about this feature)
> ...


This is actually (at least on one semi-current DSLR) the focus of a particular Custom Function in the camera's menus, and yes, it generally seems to be set to Automatic normally.

BUT!

There is a big problem when leaving it that way - the camera's decision to shoot and subtract a dark frame means that you have to wait considerably longer than normal. For a 30 second exposure, you'll have to wait about a minute. Basically it doubles the amount of time an exposure takes (and doubles the number of shutter activations), which is appropriate for a lot of nighttime photography, but not all. From what I've read (which may or may not be wildly inaccurate!), you can usually just shoot dark frames in similar conditions within a month of your initial exposure and apply the dark frame later. For somebody who goes out to shoot a lot of nighttime photos, being able to take one or a few different dark frames and easily apply them in DPP is what I think makes a lot of sense.

You're right though - the current Automatic way is more than good enough for many cases. I definitely see this as a case of doing one better than what is already good enough for most uses.


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## Edwin Herdman (Jul 27, 2011)

derbrocks09 said:


> Once the Birger mount finally arrives then it will be even harder for Canon to win guys like me back.


HOLY QUOTE VORTEX BATMAN. (Snipped.)

Also, how would Canon have lost you if you were using a Berger mount to put EF lenses on another body? The situation with Canon cameras and lenses isn't like the classic razor / blades deal (cheap razors, expensive blade packs) but Canon isn't doing that bad if they can sell lenses for competitor systems.

I think that Canon is definitely looking into ways to get you back to their system, though. Will it be successful, will it be EF mount or PL? All sorts of questions are out there that haven't been answered. I think the potential is there for some pretty amazing changes in the future, and then again maybe not.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 27, 2011)

dilbert said:


> How do you know that Canon does not want to do it?
> 
> Have you talked to the executives at Canon to find out?
> 
> Have you put the interview between you and them somewhere on the Internet where we can all read it?



That part's easy, even I can answer that...

gene_can_sing: "Mr. Canon exec, does Canon want to improve the video capabilities of the 5D line?"

Canon exec: "No comment."

gene_can_sing: "Will Canon address the shortcomings of the 5D Mark II in the areas of moire and rolling shutter?"

Canon exec: "No comment."

gene_can_sing: "Don't you want to keep your loyal customers by giving them what they want?"

Canon exec: "No comment."

...and so on.


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## Bob Howland (Jul 27, 2011)

Edwin Herdman said:


> The "lower resolution cameras have better noise performance" is simply a bad myth that has been debunked, again and again,...



We'll have to agree to disagree about that.


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## awinphoto (Jul 27, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know that Canon does not want to do it?
> ...



Haha... it's sad but true. haha


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## UncleFester (Jul 27, 2011)

derbrocks09 said:


> I'm one of those guys who has already left Canon for Panasonic and I know two friends who just left for the Sony FS100. Canon is about to lose huge if they don't produce a competitor to the AF100 and FS100 fast!



I have no facts to support, but my guess is the *majorty*of people leaving Canon were not terribly commited to begin with.

From photographer to big-time filmmaker because a dslr shoots video? Nah.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 28, 2011)

UncleFester said:


> derbrocks09 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm one of those guys who has already left Canon for Panasonic and I know two friends who just left for the Sony FS100. Canon is about to lose huge if they don't produce a competitor to the AF100 and FS100 fast!
> ...



Are you referring to Vincent Laforet? Pulitzer Prize winning photojournalist who switched from still photography and moved from New york to Hollywood where he now does video full time? Of course, he now uses Canon DSLR's, Red, Sony, Arri, and others, but it was because of the 5D MK II that he made the switch, and has more business than his company can handle. The right tool for the job.

He is a photographer, and a camera is a tool, be it video or still, its the guy behind the lens who makes it all work.


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## derbrocks09 (Jul 28, 2011)

Good point.

I won't be completely leaving Canon because I will continue to use my lovely L primes.

But once the Birger mount is out for the af100 and Sony F3 /fs100 it will be much harder for Canon to sell a video camera to guys like me who got into video in the first place because of the unique capabilities of the 5d and 7 once we've jumped ship.

Seems to me Canon is screwing up huge here. Resting on their laurals, arrogence, whaterever. I think they are screwing up on what could have been huge for them had they taken the lead and beat Sony and Panasonic to the punch. 

I hope they recover fast. But they should announce their plans asap because once the Birger mount is in my hands they will have to release an amazing camera to get me back. 





Edwin Herdman said:


> derbrocks09 said:
> 
> 
> > Once the Birger mount finally arrives then it will be even harder for Canon to win guys like me back.
> ...


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## UncleFester (Jul 28, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> UncleFester said:
> 
> 
> > derbrocks09 said:
> ...




Oooops! Well, that's certainly embarrassing.! 

He's still a photographer though, isn't he...that was my original thought although poorly conveyed.


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## leGreve (Jul 28, 2011)

dilbert said:


> All that aside, this thread is about the 5D Mark2 and its successor. Talking about the AF-100 and FS-100 is not at all relevant or helpful.



True in the sense that it will cut down sales of the 5D mkII when people realise that the video in it is seriously outdated. This thread is not only about the tech behind Canon, but also a guideline for people who are looking for alternatives since it would seem that Canon can't get their finger out their ass.

I'm here to tell you guys who are wanting to step up from the old fashioned tech that makes up the 5D... take the leap and go Pana or better yet Sony.

In regards to the price that is twice as high... that is true, but you are also getting atleast twice as much for the money. You get xlr, peaking, zebra, 4:2:2, all the good stuff, and the camera is basicly as easy to work with as turning it on.

Now... how does this tie into the debate on mkii and iii? It does because we shouldn't be celebrating Canon just because it's canonrumors, that is biased, uninformative and ignorant to do so. If something better comes along, the smart people move on (Look at Philip Bloom... and others), we don't hang around waiting for our dear Canon love to come up with something that can remotely compete with what is on the market at the moment.

The Philip Bloom blog says all that is needed to be said in regards what Canon needs to fill into a competing camera. Until they come up with this, do yourself and your paying clients a favor and upgrade instead of running around with toy canons in massive rigs and "nice try" software hacks.

*Disclaimer:* I own a 5D mk II and several Ls, but from now on I'll only pack it out when I need a B cam or doing stills.


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## leGreve (Jul 28, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> UncleFester said:
> 
> 
> > derbrocks09 said:
> ...



Yes... but the guy behind the camera, would never chose a Canon over a Red or an Arri if it was available to him, atleast only for the fun of it.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 28, 2011)

leGreve said:


> Yes... but the guy behind the camera, would never chose a Canon over a Red or an Arri if it was available to him, atleast only for the fun of it.



Since he owns his own business, he choses the right equipment for the job, including Red and sony, and even some high end speciality stuff. 

And, he is the guy behind the camera. It does not make good business sense to lease a $60, 000 Red Epic if a $5000 Canon will do the job. Customers tend to be very cost sensitive, and when we are talking a dozen cameras to do the job, a lower cost for the camera does let you under bid competitors who lease the very expensive stuff.

Here is his gear page, there is a lot of it!

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/mygear/


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## oldfilmdude (Jul 28, 2011)

The Canon still side opted to play in the field of video. As a result, the still side and the camcorder side better resolve the issues of campatibility. If not, I agree with the earlier post that there are those individuals that will just migrate over to the Sony NEX FS100. Both Canon groups need to come together on codec, interchangable lenses (between still bodies and camcorders), and offer a total solution to their customers. Coming from a film background (stills, 16/35mm movie film, and migrating to the early Sony Betacam) -- the lack of interchangable lenses between the different bodies have always been a "thorn in my side". Digital technology has changed everything -- there is no excuse why Canon cannot resolve these issues. Sony is moving towards getting it right -- Canon needs to respond quickly to stay competitive.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 28, 2011)

dilbert said:


> derbrocks09 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm one of those guys who has already left Canon for Panasonic and I know two friends who just left for the Sony FS100. Canon is about to lose huge if they don't produce a competitor to the AF100 and FS100 fast!
> ...



How is it not relevant when nobody is buying Canon for this anymore at the numbers that they had been? You sound like a Canon employee with your head in the ground.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 28, 2011)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> How is it not relevant when nobody is buying Canon for this anymore at the numbers that they had been? You sound like a Canon employee with your head in the ground.



You sound like someone who believes everything they read on the Internet. Can you show me the sales figures to support your assertion that nobody is buying Canon dSLRs for video? By all accounts, the 5DII is still selling very well. Gene_can_sing obviously confirms this with his repeated pleas for everyone to stop buying the 5DII so Canon will release the 5DIII.


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## oldfilmdude (Jul 28, 2011)

I am quite aware the post is in regards to the 5DII and its successor. I am not comparing the 5DII to the Sony, but rather stating compatability is a key issue when manufacturers are developing new products for their users. Give me one good reason (since shallow depth of field has now become a selling point) why the lenses for the 5D will not interchange with Canon's professional camcorders? It is like Canon making VHS tape for their still group and Beta tape for the camcorder group. I most likely will always use a dedicated still camera as well as a dedicated video camera. The marriage would just be better if the Canon groups would come together on interchangable lenses, codec, and provide a camcorder similiar to the Sony FS100.


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## WarStreet (Jul 28, 2011)

dilbert said:


> The comparisons of the 5D Mark2 with FS-100 and AF-100 are quite silly. They're completely different types of cameras and you're comparing apples with oranges. If you want to compare the 5D Mark2's video with something else, find another DSLR...



I have no knowledge about video and went to read a bit about these video cameras, and although they are:

(1) Much more expensive than the 5DII
(2) Specialising in video instead still photography
(3) More modern 

They still have a smaller sensor and that users still consider the 5DII as the king of DOF with good low light capabilities. Even although they are not comparable to each other, the cheap, old, photo camera 5DII, still has it's positive points. 

It is also interesting to note that there is no other entry level FF dslr alternative with video capability. 

Some video users mentioned that lenses are more important, and that it is important that video cameras to be compatible with EF-lenses. Gene says that he has a problem due to the EF canon lens collection he has. 

Canon lead the FF dslr in the video department by nearly 3 years and still counting. Due to this, Canon achieved their main dslr goal, the sales of lenses !! And we have to consider that once the competition release an entry-level FF video dlsr, Canon will release the 5DIII within a short period hoping to maintain this advantage or at least satisfy enough the video users, with the intent to sell even more lenses.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 28, 2011)

WarStreet said:


> Due to this, Canon achieved their main dslr goal, the sales of lenses ...Canon will release the 5DIII within a short period hoping to maintain this advantage or at least satisfy enough the video users, with the intent to sell even more lenses.



This is supported by features included in Canon's newest and most expensive lenses that are targeted specifically towards video shooting.


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## WarStreet (Jul 28, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> This is supported by features included in Canon's newest and most expensive lenses that are targeted specifically towards video shooting.



Yes, I forgot about these lens features. It makes sense for Canon to satisfy the video users, since there are already a good number of them. I think they will continue to increase rapidly due to the pro services such as weddings to differentiate themselves from their competition, and also more hobbyist would like to pick up video too.


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## oldfilmdude (Jul 28, 2011)

The 5DII has --and its successor will have -- great selling points in regards to both stills and video. That is not my debate. The big sensor for camcorders is here. Canon is behind in this respect. The Sony FS 100 super 35 is similiar to the 7d when it comes to crop factor. 5DII users are already taking Canon glass, with adapter, and using those lenses with the FS100. Sony has opened up the market for other lens groups to develop lenses for the FS100. If Canon will just catch up -- there should be nothing for me to further debate on this issue. 5DII great camera -- Its Successor should be even better -- Canon lenses are great -- Need a Canon Camcorder with larger sensor like 5DII. It is truly the individual behind the camera that controls how a final picture or scene will look. Just want to slap a lens on a 5DII successor, take that same lens put it on a Canon camcorder with similiar sensor and know that the shots can be controled the same in regards to equipment. 

Those of us that have been in the business for many years started with film. You had a camera(s), a bunch of lenses, a light meter, a grey card, some filters, some black & white and color film, and then it was up to that person behind the camera that made those stunning pictures. No zoom lenses back then, no auto focus, no auto exposure -- just your knowledge of light, the choice of the lens and f-stop to ultimately give the effect you were looking for, make the exposure, develop the film, and then watch the magic happen when the final print appeared.

Technology has changed the world of picture taking. I think for the good. All I am saying is with the technology today Canon can make a larger sensor camcorder and the lenses from the 5DII and its successor should interchange with the camcorder. It is coming....but will everyone wait.....It sounds like from the posts Canon may lose an opportunity. Revenue is great....Revenue will be greater if Canon develops products that are more compatible between the still and video side.

Wheter you are shooting stills and/or video all the basic concepts are the same. I used to tell videographers that worked for me that had no film experience -- "Give me a great still photographer and I can easily make him a videographer." Today the gap is much closer because of technology. Each of you hang in there and I believe it will happen.


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## WarStreet (Jul 28, 2011)

oldfilmdude said:


> 5DII great camera -- Its Successor should be even better -- Canon lenses are great -- Need a Canon Camcorder with larger sensor like 5DII.



Your request makes lots of sense. I also thought about the possibility of a video dedicated FF camera with EF-lenses, but I have some doubts about the cost. 

The nice advantage of video in the 5DII, is that they are sharing the dslr technology. They have some added R&D cost, which are more than justified due to the tons of sales. Creating a dedicated video camera with a new specialised FF sensor for video which would see relatively a small number of sales, will push up the cost of the device. I think that's why the mentioned video cameras such as the FS100 has smaller sensor and they are expensive. 

I don't know much about video cameras available, does Canon or Sony etc... already have a digital FF video camera, maybe used in the professional market ? Which 35mm cameras are used for movies and what's the price of such cameras ? As I said, I don't know much about this, but the cost could be the problem. 

So maybe we can either have a dslr shared FF sensor not optimised for video but low cost, or a smaller video optimised sensor and higher priced such as the FS100. Maybe the best way is to have both, using the the FF dslr for DOF scenes and the dedicated video camera for scenes where the dslr video quality is weak. Does this make sense ? Or even better hoping for the video dedicated FF camera using the ef mount with a decent price. It would be nice to see such a device if it is feasible.


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## oldfilmdude (Jul 28, 2011)

From a video side there are other cameras out there like Red and Sony's super 35 that are either FF or close to full frame. The issue is not the cost, or the technology, or even the current high-end Canon glass -- the issue becomes Canon's commitment to bridge the gap between their current still camera that incorporates video capabilities that does very well in producing a film look and a Camcorder that is rich in functionality (mechanics of the video camera body, XLR inputs, timecode, codec, and other features, etc.) and making them compatible. Again, I am sure they are headed that way. I have seen sample footage of the FS100 -- looks great. I have seen a Canon lens on the front of that camera. I may be one of those individuals that does the same. Additionally, I probably will have a couple 5D Mark II Successors, a bunch of top of the line Canon glass, buy an adapter for the FS100 and just go after it. I would just like Canon to get their 5D Successor out there and at the same time announce a new FF or Super 35 Camcorder that will use the more expensive Canon glass. That is all I want -- again, I probably will have a successor 5d and an FS100 before Canon makes this type of announcement.


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## wellfedCanuck (Jul 29, 2011)

At the risk of sounding stupid- doesn't anyone's wish list include a GPS chip for geo-tagging photos or wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files? With the latter, someone could be post-processing while the photog is still shooting. Or, you could call and locate your camera if it is lost or stolen.


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## J. McCabe (Jul 29, 2011)

wellfedCanuck said:


> At the risk of sounding stupid- doesn't anyone's wish list include a GPS chip for geo-tagging photos or wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files? With the latter, someone could be post-processing while the photog is still shooting. Or, you could call and locate your camera if it is lost or stolen.



Wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files is not on my wish list - I usually shoot photos away from my computer, and do the processing myself, so I could just as well use a card reader when I get home. Am I an exception ?

I would like GPS. I've heard it consumes a lot of power from the battery, so it might make sense to produce a grip with built-in GPS. If the price is right, I would buy one for my 5Dmk2


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## WarStreet (Jul 29, 2011)

oldfilmdude said:


> From a video side there are other cameras out there like Red and Sony's super 35 that are either FF or close to full frame. The issue is not the cost, or the technology...



I have re-checked, Sony's super 35 sensor size seems to be 23.6mm x 13.3 mm which is more APS-C like and makes a difference in cost compared to a 36mm. The RED EPIC is 30mm x 15mm and it is a modular system. I can't find out the sensor module cost alone, but to get a whole camera they are selling it $58,000. http://www.red.com/store/epic/product/epic-m Is this the bare minimum needed for the EPIC or you can get a working camera for less ?

Also, on the net there are news about a Scarlett FF35 module which seems to be a FF sensor costing $12,000 (sensor module alone). I can't find this info on the red website. 

There are also other FF alternatives which costs over $100K but I can only find this info on forums and don't know the validity of all this. 

I just would like to find out if what I have said in the previous post makes sense or not. i.e Would a video dedicated FF sensor, be expensive due to the dedicated R&D/production and low sales, compared to using a dslr FF sensor alternative but with the disadvantage that it is not optimised for video ?

Could someone who knows about this subject tell me about any current FF digital alternative, the bare minimum working camera prices, and any links from where they can be purchased ?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 29, 2011)

WarStreet said:


> Could someone who knows about this subject tell me about any current FF digital alternative, the bare minimum working camera prices, and any links from where they can be purchased ?



Canon 5D MK II. Its a FF that is used every day be very large numbers of film makers from News Reporters to Television programs to Commercials to Indie Film Makers, and even occasionally by large feature film makers.

Its not a Red, and, you can get a refurb straight from Canon for under $2000.

Just like the Red, for serious money making video, you will then need 10X the cost of the body in accessories, tripods, audio, editing software, the whole shooting match.


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## WarStreet (Jul 29, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon 5D MK II. Its a FF that is used every day be very large numbers of film makers from News Reporters to Television programs to Commercials to Indie Film Makers, and even occasionally by large feature film makers.
> 
> Its not a Red, and, you can get a refurb straight from Canon for under $2000.
> 
> Just like the Red, for serious money making video, you will then need 10X the cost of the body in accessories, tripods, audio, editing software, the whole shooting match.



Thanks, but I think you misinterpreted my request. Please re-read my last 2 posts as maybe you can give me the answers. I don't want to buy one, and don't do video, and I know about the value of the 5DII. The question I asked is just to find out what's the cheapest video dedicated FF cameras, to see the price difference of producing a video dedicated FF sensor vs a consumer still camera sensor with video capability.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 29, 2011)

WarStreet said:


> what's the cheapest video dedicated FF cameras, to see the price difference of producing a video dedicated FF sensor vs a consumer still camera sensor with video capability.



I don't think there is such a thing as a video dedicated FF sensor. A sensor that can be used for video can be used for stills


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## DoesNotFollow (Jul 29, 2011)

wellfedCanuck said:


> ...doesn't anyone's wish list include a GPS chip for geo-tagging photos or wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files?...



I have been waiting for a GPS for quite awhile now. Canon has included the feature in it's point and shoot line (the recent SX230), and I'd be surprised if it isn't found in the 5D mkIII or the new 1D.


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## WarStreet (Jul 29, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I don't think there is such a thing as a video dedicated FF sensor. A sensor that can be used for video can be used for stills



Yes, they can be used for both video and stills, but they are optimised for their main usage. A video sensor will be low res to avoid line skipping as an example ? The Reds, and the other dedicated video cameras have a video specialised sensor and I am claiming that they are more expensive due to this. 

Pretty much no one has replied about an alternative. I think I was right in what I have claimed on the previous posts.


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## awinphoto (Jul 29, 2011)

DoesNotFollow said:


> wellfedCanuck said:
> 
> 
> > ...doesn't anyone's wish list include a GPS chip for geo-tagging photos or wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files?...
> ...



To be honest as a working professional, I have never really needed to ever have GPS... I know where I shoot and dont have a need to know EXACTLY where I was... The few iphone photos I have taken have the GPS feature and Iphoto (which i use for my iphone stuff) records that data but I cant recall ever re-looking at the GPS map to find out where this or that photo was taken. Built in wifi could be interesting if they can make it so it doesn't slow down the camera or make it hack-proof so some nerd down the corner can hack into my camera and take my photos.


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## x-vision (Jul 29, 2011)

WarStreet said:


> Yes, they can be used for both video and stills, but they are optimised for their main usage. A video sensor will be low res to avoid line skipping as an example ?



Video sensors are no different than stills sensors but video sensors need to support much higher read-out speeds (60-120 fps for video vs 10-12 fps for stills). 
One way to cope with the data throughputs at such speeds is of course to have a lower resolution sensor or to do line skipping (or 'thinning', as I've seen it called). 

This is something that technology will definitely solve in the future, though. 
A hi-res sensor designed to do pixel-binning (or some other trick) instead of line skipping will avoid many of the aliasing issues that current DSLR sensors have for video. 



> The Reds, and the other dedicated video cameras have a video specialised sensor and I am claiming that they are more expensive due to this.



I disagree with that. 
Economies of scale surely play a role in sensor costs but the REDs are so expensive mostly for business/marketing reasons. 
RED are establishing themselves as the Ferrari/Lamborghini in their market. 
So, you will never see low cost cameras from them.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 29, 2011)

x-vision said:


> RED are establishing themselves as the Ferrari... in their market.
> So, you will never see low cost ... from them.



Don't be so sure. You can get a Ferrari for just over $10K...


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## awinphoto (Jul 29, 2011)

x-vision said:


> WarStreet said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, they can be used for both video and stills, but they are optimised for their main usage. A video sensor will be low res to avoid line skipping as an example ?
> ...



Regarding economics and price, it kinda reminds me of a seminar I saw recently about professional photographers prices and perceived worth... If 1 photographer charges more than another, all being equal, the customer will tend to think that there is a higher value or perception of the higher priced photographer. It doesn't necessarily mean that they will chose the higher priced person or not, but the reputation or pecking order will be established accordingly... If someone undercuts on price, the customer will think it's a great price, but there has to be a REASON why they're cheaper, hence a compromise or lower quality or service. That's kinda how camera prices work... The red may or may not cost the manufacturer the same to produce as canon does for the 1ds, however, they charge the higher price because they can... In fact, 10 years ago if Canon and Nikon wanted to put their flagships at $16000 or higher instead of 7000-8000, people wouldn't have thought anything of it and would be paying that for them. Perhaps people wouldn't upgrade as often but you see where i'm getting that. Heck it would make me cringe to think where then the 5d and 7d and xxd cameras would be priced then. Maybe it would be better cause it would differentiate pros from non-pro's more and thin the heard a bit, but then other starting up photogs who are making great photos with xxd cameras or rebels wouldn't be able to get into the game as easily.


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## WarStreet (Jul 29, 2011)

x-vision said:


> I disagree with that.
> Economies of scale surely play a role in sensor costs but the REDs are so expensive mostly for business/marketing reasons.
> RED are establishing themselves as the Ferrari/Lamborghini in their market.
> So, you will never see low cost cameras from them.



You are actually agreeing with me. They are specialised cars and their production cost and R&D is difficult to get covered with low number of sales. I guess you know that Lamborghini sold their cars at a loss to compete with Ferrari. The prices are not high for no reason ! 



awinphoto said:


> Regarding economics and price, it kinda reminds me of a seminar I saw recently about professional photographers prices and perceived worth... If 1 photographer charges more than another, all being equal, the customer will tend to think that there is a higher value or perception of the higher priced photographer. It doesn't necessarily mean that they will chose the higher priced person or not, but the reputation or pecking order will be established accordingly... If someone undercuts on price, the customer will think it's a great price, but there has to be a REASON why they're cheaper, hence a compromise or lower quality or service.



I agree with the photographer pricing. We are talking about clients seeking a service which can't judge easily who is going to give the best service. If every photographer has been used for the job, and the client would choice himself the photos, the client won't even care about the price as a decision factor since now he has a better educated decision criteria. For example how would I know how technically good a doctor is ? I will choice a doctor depending on how he express himself and how comfortable he make me fell, but he might not necessary be the best technical doctor. 



awinphoto said:


> That's kinda how camera prices work...The red may or may not cost the manufacturer the same to produce as canon does for the 1ds, however, they charge the higher price because they can... In fact, 10 years ago if Canon and Nikon wanted to put their flagships at $16000 or higher instead of 7000-8000, people wouldn't have thought anything of it and would be paying that for them. Perhaps people wouldn't upgrade as often but you see where i'm getting that. Heck it would make me cringe to think where then the 5d and 7d and xxd cameras would be priced then. Maybe it would be better cause it would differentiate pros from non-pro's more and thin the heard a bit, but then other starting up photogs who are making great photos with xxd cameras or rebels wouldn't be able to get into the game as easily.



What I don't agree with you is that technology market is not going to be necessary similar to the photographer/doctor examples. As I said about the Lamborghini, due to market and competition they had to sell at a loss. Market will always dictate the price with the exception of monopoly. Especially if the market is very educated and full of aggressive competition. Camera customers are educated of what they are buying, as this is going to be the tool for their own service, and they will buy the tool that suits them best allowing them to gain money, rather than just buying the most expensive camera. I doubt people but the $58,000 EPIC just because it is expensive. I don't think the 5DII would have the same success if it was priced twice the D700, That's because every little detail gets explored and people are really educated today thanks to the internet.


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## Edwin Herdman (Jul 29, 2011)

Also, ten years ago Canon and Nikon were just getting their DSLR bodies ready - Kodak (and Fuji had already put out a camera based on a Nikon body back then, I think) was the competition for Canon and Nikon, in a strange sort of way (it's complicated).


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## UncleFester (Jul 30, 2011)

wellfedCanuck said:


> At the risk of sounding stupid- doesn't anyone's wish list include a GPS chip for geo-tagging photos or wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files? With the latter, someone could be post-processing while the photog is still shooting. Or, you could call and locate your camera if it is lost or stolen.




The geo tagging I could care less about, but gps sounds like a great idea for anti-theft or recovery of stolen equipment. The "Where's my camera?" iPad app.


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## wellfedCanuck (Jul 30, 2011)

I do some aerial and real estate photography in a wilderness area. It's easy to lose track of exactly where a particular photo was taken and geo-tagging would be a nice feature. It's not as important as the primary capabilities of the camera, but if a $200 iPod or iPhone has the capability...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 30, 2011)

There are tons of things that could be in a camera, GPS, WiFi, Bluetooth, radio flash transmitter, and so on. They all take space and power(read larger battery). At the same time many users are wanting smaller cameras, they also want features that will make them bigger and heavier.

I'd certainly like to have all the things I listed above, even if it takes a 1D sized body. I do not expect to get them all in the near future.

A add-on grip that did them all might be acceptable, if it powered them separately so that it did not drain the main camera battery.


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## Redreflex (Jul 30, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> There are tons of things that could be in a camera, GPS, WiFi, Bluetooth, radio flash transmitter, and so on. They all take space and power(read larger battery). At the same time many users are wanting smaller cameras, they also want features that will make them bigger and heavier.
> 
> I'd certainly like to have all the things I listed above, even if it takes a 1D sized body. I do not expect to get them all in the near future.
> 
> A add-on grip that did them all might be acceptable, if it powered them separately so that it did not drain the main camera battery.



A very interesting lateral thought - an add-on grip with bolt-on functions. I wonder how technically feasible that is.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 30, 2011)

Redreflex said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > There are tons of things that could be in a camera, GPS, WiFi, Bluetooth, radio flash transmitter, and so on. They all take space and power(read larger battery). At the same time many users are wanting smaller cameras, they also want features that will make them bigger and heavier.
> ...



Canon already offers a grip with Wifi and bluetooth, adding GPS and radio flash should be possible. BTW, I believe you can link a bluetooth GPS that way.


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## moreorless (Jul 31, 2011)

WarStreet said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Split the 5D line into a still camera and an advanced video feature camera.
> ...



They could I spose both be the same thing, a bare bones 5D mk3 that lacks video and keep the old 9 point AF then a new model between the 5D and ID that includes video and a 7D standard AF system.

Perhaps they feel that the 5D mk2's sucess is partly down to its recently relatively low price point and they want to offer something new at the same kind of level while still making some profit and not effecting sales of the more expensive models?


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## Edwin Herdman (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't see Canon trying to foist that old 9-point AF on pros/semipros again - at least, I certainly hope they don't. Then again, where's our eye tracking?


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## awinphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Edwin Herdman said:


> Then again, where's our eye tracking?



Personally I don't see them releasing the eye control option again any time soon and I'll tell you why...

1. The simplest reason is liability. People already are griping about the 45 pt af and more options such as eye controll can be a bigger backlash. The amount of calibration, testing... People moan that they need to do the microadjust let alone calibration... If it doesn't work perfect out of the box be prepared to read floods of forums... This af is horrible. Part b to this answer if professional photogs don't JUST look at the subject matter in the view finder, were looking at the scene, the background blur, the composition, looking for anything that would detract... If a photog looks off subject consciously or unconsciously for a split second before clicking the shutter, you just lost your focus assuming you didn't lock ur focus. Even if it was user error, people will still slam canon and NO one will accept responsibility. In this saturation of pro photogs not seen by any other time history of Photography, it's a huge liability. 

Second, with digital, with high mp, focus needs to be perfect. Any flaw will be magnified since people are pixel peeping more than ever, so unless it is perfect, forget it. Too much of a risk. At least with af points you can select 1 point and keep it on subject to eliminate equipment failure from the poss why your shot is OOF.


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## Edwin Herdman (Aug 1, 2011)

I haven't used an eye tracking EOS camera yet, but what I've read is that it tracks your eye to select an AF point. For the EOS 3, 11 of the 45 points can be selected. So in that sense it's really no different from using a control pad, stick, or wheel to manually select a point. Depending on how you have the AF mode set you also should be able to consciously lock the AF point with a shutter half press.

I guess all those years playing FPS games on PC means that I have better peripheral vision than some people; I don't need to look at things directly to tell if the whole frame is decent. When I'm shooting wildlife I am looking directly at them for any sign of movement or anything that could be interesting. None of this really precludes people who work differently from using their cameras in the more basic fashion.

I'll grant that I don't think the eye tracking would work quite as well in AI Servo mode or when shooting sports. In that case yes, you don't really want the AF point selection going haywire; nobody stares at just one point forever.

I'm not really swayed by a liability argument, and I'm not swayed by a "it has to be perfect or else it can't be used' argument either. I think Canon just wants to save money on a feature that could easily just be disabled so it is no problem for folks who won't use it. They were apparently making big strides from the EOS 5 to the EOS 3, and with some years of development I wonder if it could have gone further (and perhaps it has, in Canon's labs). Really, if it is a problem to use it in AI Servo, I think it would be fairly simple to allow a custom function to have it enabled or disabled in that mode.


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## awinphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Edwin Herdman said:


> I'm not really swayed by a liability argument, and I'm not swayed by a "it has to be perfect or else it can't be used' argument either. I think Canon just wants to save money on a feature that could easily just be disabled so it is no problem for folks who won't use it. They were apparently making big strides from the EOS 5 to the EOS 3, and with some years of development I wonder if it could have gone further (and perhaps it has, in Canon's labs). Really, if it is a problem to use it in AI Servo, I think it would be fairly simple to allow a custom function to have it enabled or disabled in that mode.



Fair enough, but by liability, i'm getting at it could be a bad PR hence liability in regards to corporate image and so on and so forth. It has to be nearly perfect because, lets face it, on the film cameras, the highest most pro's were willing to print on 35mm film was 8x10. 11x14 if using ISO 100 film or under because of grain and the picture really started falling apart and clients wouldn't buy it. Pro's knew if they really wanted 11x14 or bigger, medium format was a must. Focus on an 8x10 has to be good, but focus on a 11x14 or even 16x20 which the 5d mark II can pump out natively without interpolation (almost) ANY mistake in focus will be magnified let alone those pixel peepers who would tear apart the focusing system on the internet. You remember all the noise when the 7D first came out with the 19pt focus system... people complaining how it wasn't as good as advertised on fast action... Those complaints quietly died away but to come out with this system which undoubtedly would be dubbed as Canon's best/fastest/most accurate/throw-in-adjective AF Ever, they would have to get it perfect on the flagships in order to keep good PR... Let anyone forget what happened to what was it, the 1d 3 focus system that was shakey and needed to be fixed post release. That brought Canon bad PR and they dont want a repeat by hastily releasing this.

Kinda like apple who claims they wont release a product unless it's "perfect" or "done right", Canon wouldn't/shouldn't release this system until they know beyond a shadow of a doubt it is nearly perfect.


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