# Canon EOS 70D Spec List [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 27, 2013)

```
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<p><strong>New Sensor!</strong>

Below is the spec list of the upcoming Canon EOS 70D.</p>
<p>The <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/05/new-af-technology-coming-in-july-cr1/" target="_blank">new autofocus type we were told about</a> appears to be the Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus. It works up to a claimed 5 times faster than previous EOS cameras in live view.</p>
<p><strong>Canon EOS 70D Specifications</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>20.2mp CMOS Sensor</li>
<li>DIGIC 5+</li>
<li>19pt AF System (All Cross Type)</li>
<li>7fps</li>
<li>Built-in WiFi</li>
<li>3″ Vari-Angle Touch Screen LCD</li>
<li>ISO 12,800 Maximum</li>
<li>Dual Pixel CMOS Autofocus</li>
<li>Full HD Video</li>
<li>HDR</li>
<li>Multiexposure Mode</li>
<li>LP-E6 Battery</li>
<li>Announcement on July 2, 2013</li>
</ul>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

So...20 MP, one more stop of native ISO vs. the 60D/7D, the 7D's phase detect AF system, hybrid AF on the image sensor, 7 fps, WiFi, and still uses the LP-E6.


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## hamada (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

completely new sensor or just a revamped 18MP sensor, that´s the question.

i hope for a smaller manufacturing process.


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## botw (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Looks intriguing. Now let's see where price lands.


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## the_limper (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Interesting...I was planning on skipping this one and keeping my 60D but this looks like a nice upgrade depending on the final details and the price.


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## cellomaster27 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

It's finally here!!! Hopefully it's a thousand at most. But it's canon. Yay for a new sensor! 19 cross type pionts! I'm not disappointed with the specs at all so far. Maybe iso could be better.


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## vikram1988 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

does this mean it uses the same AF technology of 7d ?


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## m (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

I wonder if it has the same flash control (master) capabilities like the 7D.

Oh dear, is "multi exposure" really considered a feature? :


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## Viggo (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Is it build like a squeaky box of yoghurt, or is it metal now? It looks cool enough.


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## GmwDarkroom (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



vikram1988 said:


> does this mean it uses the same AF technology of 7d ?


That was my question.

It reads like the new AF system is only good for Live View and movie mode.

Still, not bad depending on the price.


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## cellomaster27 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Viggo said:


> Is it build like a squeaky box of yoghurt, or is it metal now? It looks cool enough.



I heard from previous cr that it features a magnesium alloy body except for the top part. I'm not totally sure. But the build quality of the 60D was bad and they heard the complaints.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



vikram1988 said:


> does this mean it uses the same AF technology of 7d ?



Almost certainly. Not too cost effective to design an entirely new AF system when the 7D's can be reused. That's for the standard phase detect AF, of course.



GmwDarkroom said:


> It reads like the new AF system is only good for Live View and movie mode.



That's referring to the hybrid AF - pixels on the CMOS image sensor dedicated to phase detect AF. That system is separate from the 19-pt phase AF sensor. The former is with the mirror up, the latter with the mirror down.


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## vikram1988 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

it'll be one hell of a confusion if its priced around the same range as 7d.


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## GmwDarkroom (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



neuroanatomist said:


> That's referring to the hybrid AF - pixels on the CMOS image sensor dedicated to phase detect AF. That system is separate from the 19-pt phase AF sensor. The former is with the mirror up, the latter with the mirror down.


That's what I thought it meant.

Not that the AF system on a 7D is anything to sneeze at.

The price point will determine whether I stick with APS-C or jump to FF. Loyalty deals make a really compelling argument.


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## drjlo (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Got my fingers crossed regarding the new sensor's performance/DR.

If only Canon would give you AFMA on the 70D :'(


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## boateggs (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Only left wondering what the memory is (SD expected) and if is has AFMA (my only question left)


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## peederj (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Might be a nice reach companion to the 5D3 at $1000 intro or thereabouts. If it's only a stop better DR than the 60D that's not so great but passable.

With the articulating screen it may be nice for video too. The critical question will be the downsampling: it's not 3x3 binning as the sensor isn't the 22.3MP of the 5D3. So one wonders if it's still 1st-gen line skipping or if they are using that Digic5+ and giving it the downsampling of the 1DX. Also, not clear if it does clean HDMI. I imagine it has all the 700D autofocus features and touch screen doodads.

At 7fps I doubt it's the SD card speed of the 5D3's SD slot. I would imagine it has fast writes, hopefully fast enough for a ML RAW video hack...


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## ishdakuteb (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



neuroanatomist said:


> So...20 MP, one more stop of native ISO vs. the 60D/7D, the 7D's phase detect AF system, hybrid AF on the image sensor, 7 fps, WiFi, and still uses the LP-E6.



i thought it said "iso 12,800 maximum" which is not told whether or not this one is a native iso right? or this one is its native iso, and h1, h2 iso will be higher numbers? however, i have been waiting for my 7d mark ii for a while already... where is my 7d mark ii...


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



drjlo said:


> If only Canon would give you AFMA on the 70D :'(



Canon wouldn't needlessly take away a feature like that, would they? No, they won't. They already did that to the 60D. This time, they'll do nothing of the sort.





By which I mean, do nothing. As in, not add it back in. : But maybe they'll surprise us - the did give the 5DIII the AF from the 1-series, after all. So there's hope. Faint hope, but hope nonetheless.


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## ishdakuteb (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



m said:


> I wonder if it has the same flash control (master) capabilities like the 7D.



i think this is a general standard requirement of a camera with popup flash right? i saw one of my friend used his t4i popup flash to control some of other off camera speedlites. if t4i has it, i do not see why 70d does not have it.


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## Chaitanya (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Dual memory card slots please. Overall specs of the camera are really good.


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## tpatana (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Is it just me or does that look like 7D to me?


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



tpatana said:


> Is it just me or does that look like 7D to me?



It's just you. There's clearly a zero in the name.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

No GPS? I'd rather have GPS (for geotagging and for making sure the clock is up to date) than WiFi. My wife's $200 2-year-old pocket compact has GPS!


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## x-vision (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Canon Rumors said:


> *New Sensor!*



Hooray !!!


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## x-vision (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



tpatana said:


> Is it just me or does that look like 7D to me?



No, it's not just you 8).

Except for the articulating LCD, this is basically the 7D ... with a new sensor.


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## Don Haines (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

So the 70D is a good step ahead.... autofocus with 19 cross points and 5Xfaster live view.... a bump up in ISO and # of pixels... WiFi..... This makes the 7D a very lame duck... perhaps even a dead duck...

This can only mean only one of two things.... that the 7D line is to be discontinued, or that the 7D2 will be a SIGNIFICANT step up over the 7D... I'm hoping for the latter!


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## seamonster (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

"7D AF system. Put it in everything thats not full frame." - Canon


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## Dick (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Very similar specs when compared to the 7D. I would have thought that this needs to be better than 7D in all aspects including fps.


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## nicku (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Don Haines said:


> So the 70D is a good step ahead.... autofocus with 19 cross points and 5Xfaster live view.... a bump up in ISO and # of pixels... WiFi..... This makes the 7D a very lame duck... perhaps even a dead duck...
> 
> This can only mean only one of two things.... that the 7D line is to be discontinued, or that the 7D2 will be a SIGNIFICANT step up over the 7D... I'm hoping for the latter!



BIG +1

You have spared me to write exact the words quoted above.


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## kevl (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

IF Canon doesn't tack an extra $1000 onto the price I think I have found my second body. If it is priced properly.


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## carlosmeldano (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Don Haines said:


> So the 70D is a good step ahead.... autofocus with 19 cross points and 5Xfaster live view.... a bump up in ISO and # of pixels... WiFi..... This makes the 7D a very lame duck... perhaps even a dead duck...
> 
> This can only mean only one of two things.... that the 7D line is to be discontinued, or that the 7D2 will be a SIGNIFICANT step up over the 7D... I'm hoping for the latter!



What's not clear about 70D yet:
- AFMA is present or not
- body is magnesium alloy or not
- SD card slot speed

I think 7d2 will have magnesium-alloy body, focus system of 5d3 or closer to that, dual memory slot, digic 6/6+, [email protected], even a new sensor and everything 70D has. So, 7d2 will be more of a high-end ASP-C.

But I speculate 70D will be priced high, 1200$+


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## whothafunk (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

im quite intrigued by the spec list. i wonder about the ISO noise compared to 60D/7D. although i really hoped for a Digic6, since they already introduced it in a pocket camera.


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## pp77 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



carlosmeldano said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > So the 70D is a good step ahead.... autofocus with 19 cross points and 5Xfaster live view.... a bump up in ISO and # of pixels... WiFi..... This makes the 7D a very lame duck... perhaps even a dead duck...
> ...



Depending on the body quality, it looks indeed like the 70D will take the place of the current 7D in the Canon line-up


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## awinphoto (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



kevl said:


> IF Canon doesn't tack an extra $1000 onto the price I think I have found my second body. If it is priced properly.



+1... kinda bummed with the wifi it likely wouldn't be full mag alloy, but maybe just maybe they'll prove me wrong... touch screen and articulating screen i'm not bothered about... i do would like headphone jack output for video... also if it can use the same battery as the 5d3/7d that would be great...


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## Wildfire (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Hoping the new sensor has awesome high-ISO performance. Also hoping there's two card slots!


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## whothafunk (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Wildfire said:


> Hoping the new sensor has awesome high-ISO performance.


because APS-C are known for awesome high-ISO performance, right?


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## hmmm (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

OK... the sensor is not the same_O, and it is boasted to have "exceptional...tonal range"

Now I'm interested.

(BTW... not to be too obvious but trying to be helpful -- click on the shot of the specs in the OP to expand the image -- the specs on the rhs are clearly legible. Judging from some of the comments in this thread some folks have gotten so excited they didn't realize they could expand the image and read all the specs!) 8)


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## aznable (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

at least it's not a joke like the 60D; it looks likes a real XXD body


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## Olivier11986 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

My only question here is not about the 70D itself, but about the (possible) 7Dii.
Not much room left between the 70D and the 6D/5Diii for the 7Dii ... unless the 7Dii would be something like a cropped 5Diii (around the same price as well though)
Any thoughts about that?


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## aznable (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Dick said:


> Very similar specs when compared to the 7D. I would have thought that this needs to be better than 7D in all aspects including fps.



needs just to be better than d7100 and with those specs probably it is


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## Wildfire (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



whothafunk said:


> Wildfire said:
> 
> 
> > Hoping the new sensor has awesome high-ISO performance.
> ...



They aren't, currently. But what if the 70D changed that?


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## TW (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



ishdakuteb said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > So...20 MP, one more stop of native ISO vs. the 60D/7D, the 7D's phase detect AF system, hybrid AF on the image sensor, 7 fps, WiFi, and still uses the LP-E6.
> ...



It says it is 12,800 native, plus 25,600 extended (click to magnify and you can read the fine print)


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## distant.star (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

.
Feels like it's been a long, long wait.

Looks like this product may be the equal of all the talk/speculation here over the past couple of years. And now only four more days to wait.

I hope it's as good as it looks.


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## whothafunk (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



aznable said:


> at least it's not a joke like the 60D; it looks likes a real XXD body


can you name those apparent differences? i cant tell. im serious. in my eyes, it actually looks somewhat small


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## ashmadux (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

oh snap, will i have a new aps-c camera to buy...omg

finally


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## vlim (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

So beside the 1D serie (X, C and future big mega pixel body), i see the canon classification with this new 70D as the equivalent apsc body line to the 6D full frame body line and th future 7D Mark II or 8D (some mention that name) as the equivalent apsc body line to the 5D Mark III...

I hope that 70D will use Cf card, i ordered today a new one


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## Dianoda (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



whothafunk said:


> aznable said:
> 
> 
> > at least it's not a joke like the 60D; it looks likes a real XXD body
> ...



I agree, look at photos of the 70D compared to the 60D/7D bodies - 70D looks pretty much identical to the 60D from what I can see. Looks like they share the same bottom height and layout, profile, etc.


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## alan_k (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

I'd much rather have AMFA than a magnesium body. I haven't heard of anyone having a problem with the body on the 60D- not sure why people are so insistent on that as a feature. I wouldn't mind some degree of weather sealing though.

I'm hoping this is $1400 or less, but knowing Canon I'll probably be disappointed.

This is a really nice upgrade for my 60D however. I'll probably bite if the price is right.

And yeah, I think this suggests the 7DII is going to have insane specs and price.

edit: I wonder if the battery packs are the same, whether a 60D grip will work on the 70D?


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## Olivier11986 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



vlim said:


> So beside the 1D serie (X, C and future big mega pixel body), i see the canon classification with this new 70D as the equivalent apsc body line to the 6D full frame body line and th future 7D Mark II or 8D (some mention that name) as the equivalent apsc body line to the 5D Mark III...
> 
> I hope that 70D will use Cf card, i ordered today a new one



Agreed and prices should also reflect that unfortunately


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## kentandersen (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

This seems like a perfect second body camera to me. It has the specs I was hoping for, wich very rarely happen when Canon anounce anything. But will probably last a year before the price drop down to anything reasonable.


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## Olivier11986 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



alan_k said:


> I'd much rather have AMFA than a magnesium body. I haven't heard of anyone having a problem with the body on the 60D- not sure why people are so insistent on that as a feature. I wouldn't mind some degree of weather sealing though.
> 
> I'm hoping this is $1400 or less, but knowing Canon I'll probably be disappointed.
> 
> ...



I can confirm that I never had any issue with my 60D body bought on release, except the fact that the rubber grip is ungluing from the body itself and I can't glue it since it has expanded and is now larger than it was


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## Olivier11986 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



kentandersen said:


> This seems like a perfect second body camera to me. It has the specs I was hoping for, wich very rarely happen when Canon anounce anything. But will probably last a year before the price drop down to anything reasonable.



And by then the 7Dii might be out


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## carlosmeldano (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



alan_k said:


> I'd much rather have AMFA than a magnesium body.



I think AFMA must be present in this class. It I need to choose, I'd choose AFMA.


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## GmwDarkroom (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



alan_k said:


> edit: I wonder if the battery packs are the same, whether a 60D grip will work on the 70D?


According to this http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/06/eos-70d-next-to-be-announced/ -- admittedly older --, the grip will be the BG-E14.

Of course, that could just be a BG-E9 stamped with a new number ...


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## Chosenbydestiny (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Here in Asia, brand new 7D price is already below what the 60D was when it first came out, and used prices for a 7D are close to what a new 60D goes for now. So these rumored specs actually make sense, if Canon wants to sell new bodies it has to be almost as good as the old 7D at the very least. Updated features like wifi are just icing on the cake.


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## x-vision (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Olivier11986 said:


> My only question here is not about the 70D itself, but about the (possible) 7Dii.
> Not much room left between the 70D and the 6D/5Diii for the 7Dii ... unless the 7Dii would be something like a cropped 5Diii (around the same price as well though)



Excellent points!

The only way I can see a 7DII in Canon's future is if it is targeted more at pros than consumers.
This means a sensor optimized for high ISO (rather than more megapixels), really fast fame rate (10 fps?), better AF system (more than 19 AF points), etc..

Such a camera will surely be expensive, as it won't be targeted as consumers anymore. 
A $2000 price tag won't surprise me one bit.


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## pedro (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



TW said:


> ishdakuteb said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



With these extensions in native ISOs I dare to guess, that the next 5D might present 51k or even 102k as native ISO and very usable 204k based on new sensor tech and fast procesors.


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## marceloshak (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Don Haines said:


> ...This can only mean only one of two things.... that the 7D line is to be discontinued...



+1
I think there no will be a 7DII at least Nikon release a D400.
PS: Sorry for my poor english


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## unfocused (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Semi-random thoughts:

Obviously Canon was B.S.ing when they said they couldn't have both a pop up flash and wi-fi on the 6D.

Interesting that they include wi-fi but apparently not GPS.

A 20.2 MP sensor with at least one full stop improved ISO performance is great news to me. Of course, it depends on what the test results show, but if it holds up, I would be very pleased with an extra stop in a 7D. 

Very pleased with the LP-E6 Battery. No new battery and charger for the 7DII.

This seems to confirm what I've expected for quite some time: 6D is to 70D as the 5DIII is to the 7D II. I'll expect the 7D will have better weathersealing, better autofocus, faster frame rate and dual card slots (one of each). 

It will have AFMA – Canon decided it wasn't worth the grief not to include it, even though only a tiny fraction of users care.

I predict this will retail at introduction in the $1,200 to $1,400 range (right where the Nikon D7100 is). That leaves plenty of room for the 7DII at $1,600 to $2,100.

Glad they are putting touch-screen on this. It's the future. People might as well get used to it.


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## crasher8 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

could be the 5d3 backup I've been searching for…batteries!


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



x-vision said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > Is it just me or does that look like 7D to me?
> ...



This makes me wonder what form the 7d2 will take...if the XXD series inherits the old AF...does the 7d2 get the 1dx AF?


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## LesC (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

I've been waiting for the 70D to replace my 40D for what seems like ages. Specs pretty much all I could wish for; would have liked GPS as well as/instead of WiFi. AFMA and a magnesium body would be nice too, but overall I'm happy, at least until I see the price


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## brianboru (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



x-vision said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > Is it just me or does that look like 7D to me?
> ...



One thing I think I can tell from the picture is that it has the 60D's slightly taller flash (vs the 7D) and probably the same 96% coverage pentaprism as the 60D.

My other bets are that the 70D will have a single SD card and not a terribly deep buffer. I think this will be a key feature to keep 7Ds still moving into sports shooter hands until the 7Dii comes out. 

Still, a very nice camera and it gets me excited for the 7Dii. 

(Edited over transposed 70D and 7D framerates.)


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## jrista (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Chuck Alaimo said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > tpatana said:
> ...



That seemed to be the rumors before. The 7D II was going to be "like a mini 1D X with APS-C". If the prior rumors hold true, that means 61pt AF, 10fps, and a 24.1mp sensor. The 70D sounds like a nice replacement for the 7D in the same price range as it's been selling for the last year or so...$1300-$1400. It also makes room for something along the lines of an APS-C 1D X in the price range of $2200 (give or take).


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## 2n10 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



x-vision said:


> Olivier11986 said:
> 
> 
> > My only question here is not about the 70D itself, but about the (possible) 7Dii.
> ...



I'm thinking the 7DII might be an APS-C 1DX.


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## Dylan777 (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

My 2cents for 7D II:

1. 1D X AF system
2. 10fps
3. Solid body, similiar to 5D III
3. wifi etc
4. ISO same as rumor 70D or a bit better
5. Sensor technology same as 1D X or 5D III - crop size with Dual DIGIC 5+ Image Processors
6. More poweful battery


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## alan_k (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Dylan777 said:


> My 2cents for 7D II:
> 
> 1. 1D X AF system
> 2. 10fps
> ...



Wow, that's quite a feature... ;D


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 27, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



2n10 said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > Olivier11986 said:
> ...



that would kind of rock...not sure what other way they could take it with the 7d2 without making it completely irrelevant. Mini 1dx with a price tag between $2000-2500


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## Dylan777 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



alan_k said:


> Wow, that's quite a feature... ;D



Oppss...I meant wifi ;D


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## skfla (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



alan_k said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > My 2cents for 7D II:
> ...



I think the *wife* was a typo & he meant wifi. If so, Id be interested once the price settles down (although dual digic 6s would be more interesting). If its not a typo and somehow a new wife is included w/ da kit-I'll pass. Already have a couple of those & I'm not really interested in a replacement/upgrade right now.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



skfla said:


> alan_k said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



Depends on how much of an upgrade the wife is  ...this feature may not go over so well with female shooters though (Well, unless they swing that way!)...


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## bvukich (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



alan_k said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > My 2cents for 7D II:
> ...



Only if they want a 50% return rate


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## Etienne (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



skfla said:


> alan_k said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



3. .... high maintenance camera, only for the rich


----------



## jhanken (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



> > at least it's not a joke like the 60D; it looks likes a real XXD body
> 
> 
> can you name those apparent differences? i cant tell. im serious. in my eyes, it actually looks somewhat small



The dimensions do appear more like a 50D than a 60D, the new camera is definitely taller, at least with respect to width, than the 60D, and the shoulder bearing the function dial is flatter, like the 50D. It is of course speculation, but this could be the return the the more rugged semi-pro body, although if it was, you would think the package would list that as a feature. Then again, the original 50D box didn't list magnesium frame as a feature either.


----------



## bseitz234 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



brianboru said:


> while number of shots in a 1 or 2 second burst will be higher than the 7D I bet the total shots in a 4 or 5 second burst will still be higher on a 7D.



Hmm? Why would 1 or 2 seconds at 7fps be higher than the 7D's 8fps? I can shoot 25 RAW before the buffer fills up on my 7D, meaning the 7D will win for the first 3ish seconds... but after that, the only way the 70D is going to win is if its buffer is _deeper_.


----------



## Cali_PH (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



skfla said:


> I think the *wife* was a typo & he meant wifi. If so, Id be interested once the price settles down (although dual digic 6s would be more interesting). If its not a typo and somehow a new wife is included w/ da kit-I'll pass. Already have a couple of those & I'm not really interested in a replacement/upgrade right now.



Is one a full frame body and the second a smaller, lighter body as a backup?


----------



## WoodyWindy (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



x-vision said:


> Olivier11986 said:
> 
> 
> > My only question here is not about the 70D itself, but about the (possible) 7Dii.
> ...



The 7D was always more Pro-targeted than consumer.


----------



## superegophobia (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Based on the high res still seems like it will be single SD card. Figured if it were dual slot with CF option they would advertise that.

Wish there were updated info on a 7d mk ii spec sheet and timeline/availability. CF card is important for higher resolution of raw video.


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



neuroanatomist said:


> drjlo said:
> 
> 
> > If only Canon would give you AFMA on the 70D :'(
> ...


I"m not so sure about that. I think they may very well add it back into the xxD line. The 50d had it and I think they heard a lot of complaints when they dropped it from the 60D. 

I have a feeling they are going to try and bring a little bit of that xxd line back into the line... like the magnesium in the body, etc... Hoping for those that want it anyway!

Gives some hope that with a fairly substantial upgrade for this from the 60D, the 7D MKII may be fairly substantial upgrade as well!

Hope springs eternal!


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



neuroanatomist said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > Is it just me or does that look like 7D to me?
> ...


Indeed! Quite clearly!


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Don Haines said:


> So the 70D is a good step ahead.... autofocus with 19 cross points and 5Xfaster live view.... a bump up in ISO and # of pixels... WiFi..... This makes the 7D a very lame duck... perhaps even a dead duck...
> 
> This can only mean only one of two things.... that the 7D line is to be discontinued, or that the 7D2 will be a SIGNIFICANT step up over the 7D... I'm hoping for the latter!


I'm with you Don, I think it will be a fairly significant bump. It makes sense with what they're doing to this one.


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Dick said:


> Very similar specs when compared to the 7D. I would have thought that this needs to be better than 7D in all aspects including fps.


FPS is great on this compared to the 60d... Also why would it need to be better than a 7d? That's where the 7D MKII will come in, no?

It has to be better than a 60d and it would seem to be significantly so!


----------



## pj1974 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

This post has really got my attention... thanks CR. I'm quite impressed at the 70D specs listed. They are not 'unreasonable' - as in, re-using the already very good 7D's AF, and some other improvements (eg LiveView AF, articulating screen, WiFi, etc). The new '5 times quicker' contrast detect AF sounds particularly useful in some applications (I wonder if that only applies to STM, and how much other lenses, eg USM - also benefit?)

As I have a 7D - and love that camera - it does give me hope that a very good improvement is around the corner for the 7DmkII.... as that will probably be my next camera. Because I use the 7D for all my photography needs - from landscape to macro to wildlife to events to casual sports and portrait - an improvement in the sensor (namely lower noise and better DR) will be come.

I have taken so many great photos - even landscapes and portraits - don't let someone tell you an APS-C can't produce stunning photos in those genres, even though FF will naturally have an advantage there... the quality of the final result is more about lighting, composition and knowing how to use one's equipment - including great lenses.

I'm looking forward to seeing photos soon - that were produced by the 70D - ie Canon's exciting new 'camera-on-the-block'! Yay for technological improvements. Roll on 7DmkII.

a happy Paul


----------



## tnargs (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



alan_k said:


> I'd much rather have AMFA than a magnesium body. I haven't heard of anyone having a problem with the body on the 60D- not sure why people are so insistent on that as a feature.



The heft and feel of the 7D body is just ... wonderful. You need to live with one to appreciate it.

BUT, I agree with you, MA over MAG. ;D


----------



## tnargs (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

If a discounted 7D is not much more expensive than the new 70D, which would you choose?


----------



## bseitz234 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



tnargs said:


> If a discounted 7D is not much more expensive than the new 70D, which would you choose?



Refurbs from the canon store can be had for < $1,000. I'd bet the new 70D is more expensive than that... my decision would probably depend on IQ from this new sensor.


----------



## JM Photography (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



pj1974 said:


> ...it does give me hope that a very good improvement is around the corner for the 7DmkII...



Agreed, the best thing about the 70D spec list is what it silently says about the 7D Mark II


----------



## sarakoth (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

So nobody has made any mention or comparison (from a spec perspective) to a 6D?

I have been waiting ages for a APS-C update to compare with a 6D for an upgrade from my 500D. The big concern for me is the AF of the 6D, so if this has the AF of the 7D then I would be pretty happy.

I assume the 70D will be slightly less than a 6D as well.

Thoughts?


----------



## brianboru (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



bseitz234 said:


> brianboru said:
> 
> 
> > while number of shots in a 1 or 2 second burst will be higher than the 7D I bet the total shots in a 4 or 5 second burst will still be higher on a 7D.
> ...



Oops. My stupid is showing - mentally I had the frame-rates reversed. Yes the 7D will win at any duration over the 70D. I bet that the 70D will have a significantly smaller buffer than the 7D and will get painful after only a couple of seconds. I think this will be a key feature to keep 7Ds still moving into sports shooter hands until the 7Dii comes out.


----------



## jdramirez (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

I had a 60D and I really like it. I'm buying a 50D as a backup for AFMA purposes and because I don't need a video, and I'm not sure if I would be tempted to get a 70D. Let's say in 3 years I find a really nice package with lenses and printers and I sell it all off so the 70D body only costs $300... yes it would be a nice addition, but I don't know that I would want it as a backup. It is better... but I almost would opt for a 7D as the next logical backup option. 

As a quick aside... I think is a very suitable replacement to the 60D. It doesn't have everything, but it is definitely worth making the upgrade from the tXi line... in my opinion at least.


----------



## cr316892 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

I'm a bit disappointed that there is no GPS.

I find geotagging to be a useful feature. I know others may not agree.


----------



## starship (Jun 28, 2013)

*the quality of the new sensor will be the key*

the quality of the new sensor will be the key!

i´m a long time canon shooter, but couldn´t help myself to recommend a friend, who was looking for a good midrange body to go with nikon. nikon´s sensor quality is so much better at the moment. from 14ev dynamic-range to 3/4 ev more in high iso. autofocus is better anyway...

but let´s hope, that canon is done with "oldtimer"-sensor technology. 

at least I am sick and tired of waiting for a competitive sensor.

we´ll see.


----------



## birtembuk (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Great specs I think. 70D, 7DII, 3D ... will 2013 be *The* Canon year ? If so, it might be the year I end up with all my remaining piggy banks smashed up ... :-X


----------



## alan_k (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: the quality of the new sensor will be the key*



starship said:


> the quality of the new sensor will be the key!
> 
> i´m a long time canon shooter, but couldn´t help myself to recommend a friend, who was looking for a good midrange body to go with nikon. nikon´s sensor quality is so much better at the moment. from 14ev dynamic-range to 3/4 ev more in high iso. autofocus is better anyway...
> 
> ...



Somehow I suspect if this sensor was better than the Nikon equivalent, we would be hearing a lot more about it. I'll be happy if it's noticeably better than the 60D, and within spitting distance of the Nikon.


----------



## weixing (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: the quality of the new sensor will be the key*



starship said:


> the quality of the new sensor will be the key!
> 
> i´m a long time canon shooter, but couldn´t help myself to recommend a friend, who was looking for a good midrange body to go with nikon. nikon´s sensor quality is so much better at the moment. from 14ev dynamic-range to 3/4 ev more in high iso. autofocus is better anyway...
> 
> ...


Hi,
Not sure why so many people in the forum said that Nikon sensor is better than Canon... I compare them from the images in imaging resource and found there is no significant visual different... in fact, IMHO, Canon high ISO is slightly better with more details.

Anyway, previous xxD spec is now xxxD spec and 7D spec is now xxD spec, so if there is a 7DII, it'll be close to the 1D spec... hopefully, the price is not.... 

Have a nice day.


----------



## silvestography (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

If canon wants to at all compete with the d7100 this needs to be at least partially magnesium alloy with some level of weather sealing. In any case, I'm totally excited. Time to start saving...


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

This looks awesome. Seems like not even the haters can find something wrong with this one.


----------



## starship (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: the quality of the new sensor will be the key*

at the moment nikon is the clear leader in sensor quality. 
I hope this will change.



weixing said:


> starship said:
> 
> 
> > the quality of the new sensor will be the key!
> ...



it´s not the question of having an opinion. it´s the (scientific) numbers that count:

here are the numbers:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/865|0/%28brand%29/Nikon/%28appareil2%29/663|0/%28brand2%29/Canon/%28appareil3%29/619|0/%28brand3%29/Canon

but anyway, we will see, if canon will do a better job than nikon. 
it´s about time...


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

I suppose the only thing MORE worthless than DxOmark's sensor scores, are their lens scores. Absolutely worthless.


----------



## starship (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



bdunbar79 said:


> I suppose the only thing MORE worthless than DxOmark's sensor scores, are their lens scores. Absolutely worthless.



as a scientist, i rather trust standardized measurements with hundreds of cameras than individual opinions based on pixel peeping. 

but that´s just me. and science. ;-)


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



starship said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > I suppose the only thing MORE worthless than DxOmark's sensor scores, are their lens scores. Absolutely worthless.
> ...


as a scientist you should also know that if you measure irrelevant data you get useless results


----------



## expatinasia (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: the quality of the new sensor will be the key*



starship said:


> at the moment nikon is the clear leader in sensor quality.



I thought all Nikon's good cameras had Sony sensors in them?

I am very happy with the sensor in my Canon cameras. They do a pretty good job of making me look quite good at times. 8)


----------



## starship (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*


[/quote]
as a scientist you should also know that if you measure irrelevant data you get useless results
[/quote]

absolutly. that´s why i like dxomark. they are doing a great job. 
why should someone better rely on "gold awards"?

but anyway. everybody is free to have his personal believe, what he is considering the "true blue"...


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: the quality of the new sensor will be the key*



expatinasia said:


> starship said:
> 
> 
> > at the moment nikon is the clear leader in sensor quality.
> ...


me too


----------



## adhocphotographer (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

hmmm if this is the 70D... what will the 7DII be like? 10-12 FPS?


----------



## scuba_steve (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

I may be alone here, but the deal killer for me is if it only comes with one custom user setting. Here's hoping it has 3.


----------



## RGomezPhotos (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



nicku said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > So the 70D is a good step ahead.... autofocus with 19 cross points and 5Xfaster live view.... a bump up in ISO and # of pixels... WiFi..... This makes the 7D a very lame duck... perhaps even a dead duck...
> ...



+1

The 7D MKII should be AMAZING! 

If they are putting this much tech. into a 70D, I can only imagine all the world-beating specs coming to soon to be released Canon DSLRs...

And thank you for built-in WiFi! ;D


----------



## Dick (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



scuba_steve said:


> I may be alone here, but the deal killer for me is if it only comes with one custom user setting. Here's hoping it has 3.



I'm not too familiar with current crop bodies, but do they have these custom modes at all?

Personally I really like the modes and actually I'd like to change Av & Tv modes on my 5D3 into additional custom modes too. Av, Tv & M are modes where I like different settings. Would be nice not to have to change settings (auto ISO, servo, ...) after switching modes. .... Actually an M mode with auto ISO *and exposure compensation* would make me want to buy a new body. That would be everything that is needed for my kind of photography. Only 1 mode needed, yet not made available on any Canon body. :'(


----------



## SenorClean (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: the quality of the new sensor will be the key*



expatinasia said:


> starship said:
> 
> 
> > at the moment nikon is the clear leader in sensor quality.
> ...



I believe some of the newer ones (D5200 / D7100) have Toshiba sensors:
http://www.chipworks.com/blog/recentteardowns/2013/01/08/inside-the-nikon-d5200-dslr-toshiba-found/


----------



## scuba_steve (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Dick said:


> scuba_steve said:
> 
> 
> > I may be alone here, but the deal killer for me is if it only comes with one custom user setting. Here's hoping it has 3.
> ...



I believe the 60D has one, while the 7D has three. My 40D has three...and I use all of them. I set them up at the beginning of a sporting event based on my position, the lighting, and the action speed...and it allows me to move between blocks of settings without leaving the viewfinder. I would also love more...and it would be even better if you could label them and see that label show up in the viewfinder, but I am pretty sure 99% of xxD users never use them...so I am not holding my breath....and Canon seems to love leaving simple things off to differentiate between models.


----------



## martinmm (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*


Well, this thread is far more encouraging than the last one. I still want to see how it compares to the D7100. 

One thing that the Nikon's have going for them is a really nice viewfinder.


----------



## lopicma (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

These specs sound nice. Very similar to the current 7D. I look forward to seeing the specs for the 7D MkII.
I still prefer GPS over Wi-Fi, but beggars can't be choosers. Maybe _Eye-Fi _will come out with a GPS in an SD Card some day.


----------



## nicku (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

The 70D clearly pack some features, a real upgrade for the 60D.

Looking at the body type,construction and features 70D will not be the king of APS-C. 

I believe 7Dmk2 will have *THE SAME 20.2 MP* sensor but with some extra features like fps , AF, body construction , dual card slots, etc.

In my opinion 70D nice features and specs are a normal/expected response to the competition.


----------



## expatinasia (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



dilbert said:


> where is the pic?
> 
> DMCA/copyright/takedown notice?



I doubt it. CR did post a very large version though. so maybe hot linking was an issue, even though it shouldn't be as it is not that hard to defend against.

It is still up at photorumors.com and I have a copy too, as do a few people here, I am sure.


----------



## that1guyy (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

The specs look pretty good! I have been waiting for a while to upgrade my old Rebel. I want to see the improvements in sensor noise and dynamic range though. Also hoping for AFMA and dual SD slots but not holding my breath! I wish the video functionality is improved though. 1080p at 60p anyone? The Magic Lantern guys need to hack this and give us RAW 1080!!


----------



## verysimplejason (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

This will bring down the price of 7D drastically.


----------



## firebreatherboy (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

that tells me that the next 7D will be a significant update. Maybe even similar to 1Dx af system and build quality.


----------



## pj1974 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



expatinasia said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > where is the pic?
> ...



I did a print of the picture - yes it was quite an impressive (and what I could tell... authentic).

Hopefully we'll actually have the 'real deal' Canon 70D out soon.

PJ


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



scuba_steve said:


> I may be alone here, but the deal killer for me is if it only comes with one custom user setting. Here's hoping it has 3.


If you have pro needs you should afford a pro camera.


----------



## verysimplejason (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Hobby Shooter said:


> scuba_steve said:
> 
> 
> > I may be alone here, but the deal killer for me is if it only comes with one custom user setting. Here's hoping it has 3.
> ...



Not every pro have "pro" money especially for pro photographers in some parts of the world. Don't treat all pro photographers like they're coming from US or UK where minimum wage is much higher than for example some countries in Asia.


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



verysimplejason said:


> Hobby Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > scuba_steve said:
> ...


I think you would know that I have lived in Cambodia up until just a few weeks ago. Now back in Sweden though. Some statements regarding products are quite arrogant and contributes to setting the wrong expectations on products, if they would include all features in all models then there wouldn't be different models right? With cameras and other tech being 20-35% cheaper in many countries in Asia I would say that a large chunk of the difference is already wiped out. I've bought all my stuff in Cambodia as it is 30-35% cheaper than in Sweden, a few stores there import themselves from Singapore.

Maybe I overreacted on this post though and for that I apologize. :-[


----------



## whothafunk (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

I'm pretty sure 70D did not inherit 7D's AF, just because 7D has a dedicated processor just for the AF + Dual Digic4 processors. Dedicated processors is what makes 7D's, 5DIII's and 1D's series AF so splendid.

Here's a quote from POTN on this matter



> The AF systems in these cameras have their own, dedicated processors that are completely separate from the chips that are handling image processing. So when comparing the theoretical AF performance of the 7D to the new 70D, you are not comparing a single Digic5+ to a pair of 4s. You are comparing the processing power that the 5+ devotes to AF (rather than processing image data, sending files to the memory card, calculating exposure, monitoring battery levels, running noise reduction algorithms, etc.) to the processing power of a single chip that is clearly older and outdated but is doing AF calculations and nothing else.


----------



## verysimplejason (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Hobby Shooter said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > Hobby Shooter said:
> ...



 Me too. I just accused you right away. Sorry. I'm just tired of people bragging about their equipment. Well, I too bought my equipment mostly here in Malaysia since it's cheaper than buying it at home.

Well, Nikon D7100 got U2 and U1 aside from 58 AF points.  I think comparing 70D to it seems fair. I just hope Canon's sensor manages to at least be competitive with new sensors from other companies such as Sony. I'm still waiting for that "breakthrough". I hope this is it. Looking at the SL1, its sensor is just the same thing as that with 18MPs. I hope 70D's sensor is better.


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



verysimplejason said:


> Hobby Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > verysimplejason said:
> ...


Making up now 

I would never brag about equipment, what is there to brag about... I wouldn't even brag about taking a good picture if I managed to do that someday.

I did buy my 60D three years ago att KLCC and also there it was a great difference to the prices in Sweden. I found the prices in Phnom Penh being consistently lower than even in Hong Kong. At least in those shops where they import themselves, in the official Canon dealer on the main street it's close to Swedish prices though. That's where the rich Khmer goes to show off their money buying the most expensive stuff.

Anecdote: the PM's nephew bought a Hasselblad a couple of years ago, it was rumored to be in the 20k range. As far as I know he never used it.


----------



## expatinasia (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



verysimplejason said:


> Well, I too bought my equipment mostly here in Malaysia since it's cheaper than buying it at home.



Another expat? Where are you from verysimplejason.

BTW, I have to state that while some in Europe and the US do have very impressive camera collections, there are some countries in Asia which put them to shame. I am often at events where some pros that are new (maybe flew in from overseas especially for whatever it is we are covering) will quietly ask me, who the ++++ are these guys, pointing at some of the local pros with lenses far too big for the event they are covering. Is funny really. The last major international event I was at, I was chatting to one local when there was a lull in the match and I asked him which AF case he was using. We both had exactly the same gear 1DX with 400 f/2.8 ii. Oh boy, did I wish I had not asked that question! He had no idea what I was talking about and even walked him through his menu right to the spot. I could tell from his face he had no idea what it was. 

Anyway, I think I have gone slightly off topic. Sorry. But let's stop talking about prices in Sweden - everyone knows it is one of the most expensive places in the world! : ;D

It's Friday, are the pubs open yet?! 8)


----------



## dgatwood (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



lopicma said:


> These specs sound nice. Very similar to the current 7D. I look forward to seeing the specs for the 7D MkII.
> I still prefer GPS over Wi-Fi, but beggars can't be choosers. Maybe _Eye-Fi _will come out with a GPS in an SD Card some day.



Eye-Fi will almost certainly *never* come out with true GPS. There is neither room for the chip nor the antenna inside an SD card, nor does the SD spec allow you to draw enough power to do GPS and much of anything else at the same time.

Looks like I've just lost interest in the 70D. I was going to buy one *instantly* if it were a crop body with GPS. No GPS, no interest. Looks like I'll be shooting yet another Europe trip with my venerable XTi.


----------



## whothafunk (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

I really don't see all the hassle regarding GPS. I think it's useless. GPS is useful in cars and mobile phones if you're lost, but geo-tagging? Couldn't care less and certainly will not be a deal maker or breaker.


----------



## Pandypix (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

So release date will be advised soon now all I have to is how many $$$$ too many and I will have to start my buy list again. :'( :'(


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



expatinasia said:


> verysimplejason said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I too bought my equipment mostly here in Malaysia since it's cheaper than buying it at home.
> ...


Ok no more about that :

Oh you mentioned the pub, that's another thing that's super expensive here. What was I thinking moving back?


----------



## scrup (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*




Finally a new sensor. This might slow down t5 sales as people will wait for t6 now.


----------



## dgatwood (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



whothafunk said:


> I really don't see all the hassle regarding GPS. I think it's useless. GPS is useful in cars and mobile phones if you're lost, but geo-tagging? Couldn't care less and certainly will not be a deal maker or breaker.



It is for me. I like to know where pictures were taken. That might be practical if I shot a couple of dozen pictures per day. When I go on a two week vacation, though, I average 2-3,000 shots—on the order of a couple of hundred shots per day. Without geotagging, it is completely infeasible to figure out where each shot was taken with much more precision than "Somewhere in [insert city here]." With geotagging like I have on my iPhone, I just load the pictures into Lightroom, click the Map tab, and I can see where the photo was taken to within a few feet.

I've been waiting six years for Canon to release a crop body with GPS. I guess I can wait another year. I was just hoping to actually have GPS for the photos I'm going to take in September. At this point, given that they've already shipped the 6D with GPS, I can't imagine even contemplating buying a camera without GPS knowing that there's about a 90% chance that they left it off the 70D because they plan to save that "advanced feature" for the next 7D.

So I'll continue waiting. Again.


----------



## expatinasia (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Hobby Shooter said:


> Ok no more about that :
> 
> Oh you mentioned the pub, that's another thing that's super expensive here. What was I thinking moving back?



Of course, but I get the impression that you are not back for good, so soak up the cultural benefits of being in Europe, and thank your lucky stars it is not winter, as I have seen those YT videos of what you Swedes get up to after too many schnapps! Even Anthony Bourdain partook in such a refreshing dip I believe!


----------



## lycan (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



whothafunk said:


> I'm pretty sure 70D did not inherit 7D's AF, just because 7D has a dedicated processor just for the AF + Dual Digic4 processors. Dedicated processors is what makes 7D's, 5DIII's and 1D's series AF so splendid.




5DIII doesn't have dual digic 5+...



And if 70D has GPS than then body will be like the 6D


----------



## AvTvM (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

exactly same situation at Nikon and Canon: still no replacement for 7D and D300s. 
70D closely matching D7100, both re-using the old phase AF-systems of the former top APS-C cameras. 

Most important prediction: 70D sensor with 20 MP and only 1 stop "better" than 7D will be NO MATCH for Nikon D7100 sensor and IQ - not in resolution and not in DR - I expect a 1-stop difference in Nikon's favor. 

Apart from sensor, 70D and D7100 are very closely matched. Body quality very similar with some metal structure on the inside and a lot of plastics everywhere else. Definitely no complete Mg-alloy shell. Viewfinder (pentaprism, 100% coverage, somewhere between 0.94x to 0.98x magnification), single SD-card slot, pop-up flash w/wireless flash commander, no AFMA. 

Some advantages for Canon: 7fps vs. 6fps, fully articulated LCD, better live-view implementation w/hybrid AF (Contrast + on-sensor phase-detect), probably better video and built-in WiFi. 

Definitely nothing that would justify pricing above D7100 - currently @ € 1,000 / body.


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



bdunbar79 said:


> I suppose the only thing MORE worthless than DxOmark's sensor scores, are their lens scores. Absolutely worthless.


How can you say that? DXO scores the 50f1.8 higher than the 600f4.0 so it MUST be a better lens........ (Huge sarcasm tag inserted here)


----------



## carlosmeldano (Jun 28, 2013)

*Canon 8D?*

What about Canon 8D?

http://www.fotoplus.su/catalog/photo/canon/5542/

As the 70D along with 8D was present on this site hours before the 70D specs leaked, I wouldn't be suprised if 8D also gets announced, and 7D2 will be a whole different body with different sensor.

What if 70D is like 60D in quality and AFMA, and 8D is like a more robust 7D, and 7D2 is something even better next year, even with a new and bigger sensor.


----------



## Tanja (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

does that mean this sensor will be in the 7D MK2 too?

how likely do you think is it?

and do you think this sensor is using a better manufacturing process?

i really don´t want/need more MP but DR and low iso noise performance of the recent sony sensors would be nice.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

It's an interesting spec list. This new camera isn't far off the current 7D specs.
19 point AF and 7fps!


----------



## Tanja (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon 8D?*



carlosmeldano said:


> What about Canon 8D?
> 
> http://www.fotoplus.su/catalog/photo/canon/5542/
> 
> ...



or maybe the 8D IS the 7D MK2?
the replacement of the current 7D.

they also would make room for a completely new 7D speeddemon with an APS-H sensor?
that way the naming in canons lineup would make more sense too, if there ever will be a new APS-H sensor.

FF:
1D
3D
5D
6D

APS-H:
7D

APS-C:
8D
70D
Rebels


----------



## nicku (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon 8D?*



carlosmeldano said:


> What about Canon 8D?
> 
> http://www.fotoplus.su/catalog/photo/canon/5542/
> 
> ...



Too many DSLR's body's ... If Canon will introduce a new body/camera category in the current range almost certainly will be a Big megapixel monster for studio and fashion use, not another pro-summer body.


----------



## nicku (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

The specs of the 70D from my point of view bring into question the possibility that 7Dmk2 to be APS-H, thought as a real backup camera for 1Dx, and priced somewhere at $2500.


----------



## Tanja (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



dgatwood said:


> I've been waiting six years for Canon to release a crop body with GPS. I guess I can wait another year. I was just hoping to actually have GPS for the photos I'm going to take in September. At this point, given that they've already shipped the 6D with GPS, I can't imagine even contemplating buying a camera without GPS knowing that there's about a 90% chance that they left it off the 70D because they plan to save that "advanced feature" for the next 7D.



i really like the GPS in the 6D.

but they have to bring out a firmware update.

GPS is draining the battery when the camera is off.
and it´s kind of annoying to always enable and disable GPS manually.

there should be an timer, so when the cameras is in OFF modus the GPS will be disabled after 1 hour or 30 minutes.


----------



## Tanja (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



nicku said:


> The specs of the 70D from my point of view bring into question the possibility that 7Dmk2 to be APS-H



can you go into more detail why?

if the 8D is the top of the line APS-C, replacing the 7D.
an APS-H could be a nice backup camera to the 1D X.

not?


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Very nice specs


----------



## whothafunk (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



lycan said:


> whothafunk said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure 70D did not inherit 7D's AF, just because 7D has a dedicated processor just for the AF + Dual Digic4 processors. Dedicated processors is what makes 7D's, 5DIII's and 1D's series AF so splendid.
> ...


I never said it has? To make it more clear.

For example. 7D has Dual Digic4 processors plus a dedicated CPU for AF only. 5DIII has Digic5+ processor and one dedicated CPU just for AF. So does the 1D series.

Proof
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_canon_eos_5d_mark_iii.do - expand the AF section



> Achieving this speed and accuracy in the AF algorithm requires a large amount of focus data to be processed quickly. This has been done by the use of distributed processing where both a *dedicated AF processor* and a *camera CPU* process data. The *dedicated AF processor* is four times faster than the one found in the EOS-1D Mark IV.


Camera CPU being Digic5+

---
70D doesnt have a dedicated processor for the AF alone, there for its quite safe to assume it will not share 7D's autofocus capabilities.


----------



## simonxu11 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



ankorwatt said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



They were kept seperate. DXO Lens ratings are worthless.

The root of the problem is that you can not use a single number to represent a complex system with diverse options and capabilities for a variety of different users with different requirements and have agreement to the validity of that number. Using a single number, DXO rates the 50f1.8 HIGHER than the 600F4.0.... this is a reflection of how they choose to rate lenses, not the utility /quality of the lens for what you wish to do with your requirements and constraints. If I rate the lenses with higher weighting for cost, weight, and general purpose usage, than the 50f1.8 rates higher. If I rate for pure image quality and with a higher weight on wildlife photography and lower weight on price and size, then the 600f4.0 rates higher.

Bias enters the rating system depending on what was chosen to be rated and how each factor is weighted.... and it is the same for ANY system where attempts are made to create a simplified scale. There is no set answer. We will disagree. You will be right for your requirements and I will be right for my requirements.

Once again, you can not represent a complex system with diverse options and capabilities for a variety of different users with different requirements with a single number and have agreement to the validity of that number.... AND THIS IS WHY DXO LENS RATINGS ARE WORTHLESS!!!


----------



## pedro (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

Does "new sensor" apply to a new sensor tech as well? An overall less noisy sensor which makes a difference in the APS-C bodies as well? Is this the reason for the enhanced ISO range?


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



pedro said:


> Does "new sensor" apply to a new sensor tech as well? An overall less noisy sensor which makes a difference in the APS-C bodies as well? Is this the reason for the enhanced ISO range?



Who knows???? It could be new tech.... or it could be that with a Digic5+ the 70D has enough computing power to run better algorithms on the same tech.... I'm sure the jpg's are better, but what about the RAW images..... I guess we will have to wait for further info...

EDIT: Digic5+ is 3X faster than Digic5, Digic5 is 6Xfaster than Digic 4, so you have 18X the computing power availiable.


----------



## garyknrd (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

As a birder not very exciting new for me.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Chaitanya said:


> Dual memory card slots please.



Forget it, this is reserved for commercially usable "pro" bodies, it's Canon after all.



hamada said:


> completely new sensor or just a revamped 18MP sensor, that´s the question. I hope for a smaller manufacturing process.



I don't care for the process if it's one *real* stop iso improvement with no strings attached, i.e. iso1600 looks like iso800 now inc. the dynamic range of the lower iso settings.



x-vision said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > Is it just me or does that look like 7D to me?
> ...



The digic5-based cameras have many qualities that are not immediately visible in the core specs due to the higher cpu power: more continuous fps, in-camera ca correction, higher res burst pictures (with Magic Lantern), ... the question if Canon again chooses to cripple the firmware for a "consumer" model



carlosmeldano said:


> What's not clear about 70D yet:
> - AFMA is present or not
> - body is magnesium alloy or not
> - SD card slot speed



It will have afma after all the 60d complaints, body mag/"plastic" is overrated, and sd card speed of course will be uhs-1 (the 5d3 just happened to have a crippled controller, doesn't seem to be intentional on Canon's side).

... the best thing about the 70d though: If the price is somewhat reasonable it's a tough competition for the 6d and should bring the latter's price down.


----------



## AvTvM (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Marsu42 said:


> I don't care for the process if it's one *real* stop iso improvement with no strings attached, i.e. iso1600 looks like
> iso800 now inc. the dynamic range of the lower iso settings.



Also don't care for the manufacturing process. That's Canon's problem. 

Our problem as Canon users is, that I expect Canon will not be able to deliver a sensor+electronics matching the current Nikon D7100 sensor in terms of IQ. Not in resolution (20 vs. 24 MP) and probably even less so in DR across all ISO settings starting at base ISO nor in Hi-ISO Noise. At best, I expect the 70D sensor to come in "only" 1 EV lower in DR and noise across the entire ISO range.


----------



## WoodyWindy (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



dilbert said:


> where is the pic?
> 
> DMCA/copyright/takedown notice?



Most likely something of that sort. Doesn't mean the original leak wasn't deliberate. Canon's had way too many of these "Oops" moments within a week or so of the real announcements. Given how good their "normal" lockdown is, I'd be surprised if there wasn't an "officially unofficial" buzz-builder process for these things.


----------



## Steb (Jun 28, 2013)

I heard more details few days ago which I think were quite well informed...

* MA body / weather sealing
* SD card
* $1199

But then they also talked about GPS. No information on AFMA.


----------



## carlosmeldano (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



AvTvM said:


> Our problem as Canon users is, that I expect Canon will not be able to deliver a sensor+electronics matching the current Nikon D7100 sensor in terms of IQ. Not in resolution (20 vs. 24 MP) and probably even less so in DR across all ISO settings starting at base ISO nor in Hi-ISO Noise. At best, I expect the 70D sensor to come in "only" 1 EV lower in DR and noise across the entire ISO range.



Canon uses the same 18MP sensor in their ASP-C cameras since 2009. It was very good at that time, bug aged since then.

I don't think they weren't developing new sensors. I may accept that they couldn't develop as good sensors as competitors, but for me, the 20MP tells something: it must be much better.

Why? They must have developed a few different sensors in size, and they tested all. After all, they decided to use a 20MP one in the 70D.

Why? Maybe because their 24MP sensor doesn't have as good IQ as the Nikon one. But the 20MP one, I think is at least as good as the one in Nikon.

Othewise, what would the market say? Lame Canon couldn't even develop a sensor with the same IQ as the one in Nikon that has 25% more pixels.

We'll see on next Tuesday.


----------



## bseitz234 (Jun 28, 2013)

$1199 would be a downright bargain, compared to canon's normal pricing lately. If this comes in at that price point, I'm SUPER excited for the 7d2 because I might actually be able to afford it... 

Re: CPUs and AF system. The 7D has dual digic 4, + 1 processor for AF. This has 1 digic 5+, which has "18 x computing power" (see above). Now, I understand that all this is a simplification, and that "power" is a very vague term. But, it doesn't seem inconceivable to me that the camera could process slightly less data at max burst (20.2MP * 7fps vs 18MP * 8fps), AND drive the AF system with the same CPU. Unless there are other, more demanding processing requirements, it would seem to me that 1 digic 5+ is doing the work of the previous 2 digic 4s + unspecified AF chip.


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



carlosmeldano said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Our problem as Canon users is, that I expect Canon will not be able to deliver a sensor+electronics matching the current Nikon D7100 sensor in terms of IQ. Not in resolution (20 vs. 24 MP) and probably even less so in DR across all ISO settings starting at base ISO nor in Hi-ISO Noise. At best, I expect the 70D sensor to come in "only" 1 EV lower in DR and noise across the entire ISO range.
> ...



What I find interesting is that the ISO range is the same as the T5i.... there really isn't much of a difference in size of pixels between 18 and 20 Mpixels.... I would have expected that if they had gone to a newer process that the ISO range would have exceeded the T5i, so my bet is the same technology as before for the sensor with further improvements to "live view" like we have seen on the last few lower-end releases.

Canon also said that it was to be the 7D2 that was the "game changer". That's when I would expect to see any signifianly better technology emerge.


----------



## marceloshak (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon 8D?*



carlosmeldano said:


> What about Canon 8D?
> 
> http://www.fotoplus.su/catalog/photo/canon/5542/
> 
> ....



if 8D is "kitted" with 18-55 lens, then it´s not the 7DII replacement.


----------



## carlosmeldano (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon 8D?*



Don Haines said:


> What I find interesting is that the ISO range is the same as the T5i.... there really isn't much of a difference in size of pixels between 18 and 20 Mpixels.... I would have expected that if they had gone to a newer process that the ISO range would have exceeded the T5i, so my bet is the same technology as before for the sensor with further improvements to "live view" like we have seen on the last few lower-end releases.
> 
> Canon also said that it was to be the 7D2 that was the "game changer". That's when I would expect to see any signifianly better technology emerge.



Yes, you may be right.

Canon may put the same-or-bit-better-IQ 20MP sensor to 70D and putting the much-better-IQ 24MP sensor to 7D mk2.




marceloshak said:


> if 8D is "kitted" with 18-55 lens, then it´s not the 7DII replacement.



I think it's kitted because it's also STM-capable but there are no higher-priced STM lenses.


----------



## Olivier11986 (Jun 28, 2013)

Something that seems wasn't mentioned and that was really lacking on the 60D is the joystick controller and I cannot see one navigating through the 19 AF points with only the back wheel, so I think we should see it back on the xxD models


----------



## pedro (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Don Haines said:


> carlosmeldano said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...


----------



## mb66energy (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon 8D?*



marceloshak said:


> carlosmeldano said:
> 
> 
> > What about Canon 8D?
> ...



I think it's a typo:
- image shows 7D
- Number 8 is two times 4 and 4 is a number which is associated with dead in some asian languages

(No G4, no G8 etc.)


----------



## sdsr (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



pedro said:


> Does "new sensor" apply to a new sensor tech as well? An overall less noisy sensor which makes a difference in the APS-C bodies as well? Is this the reason for the enhanced ISO range?



I hope so; this aspect seems to get overlooked. The Nikon D7000 and Pentax K-5 used the same Sony sensor, but it performs even better in the Pentax than in the Nikon. It's ironic that Sony sensors seem to perform rather poorly in Sony DSLRs (at least at high ISOs).


----------



## RLPhoto (Jun 28, 2013)

I predicted this like a year ago. 

60D AF ----> Rebel. 

7D AF ----> 70D

5D3 AF ----> 7D2

Everything got an upgrade to a better older system.


----------



## Dick (Jun 28, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I predicted this like a year ago.
> 
> 60D AF ----> Rebel.
> 
> ...



Well, the last one at least is impossible to my understanding. You can't take a FF AF system and put it in a crop body. Or can you?


----------



## vlim (Jun 28, 2013)

I expect this 70D to be a good surprise in term of overall quality and specifications like the 6D is and the future 7DII to have the same level of quality the 5DIII has.

So it means a 70D in the 1200-1500€/$ range and the future 7DII in the 2000-2500€/$ range...


----------



## whothafunk (Jun 28, 2013)

No. If its going to be, lets say, $1300, then it will be atleast 1300EUR, which is equivalent of $1700. 

New 7D had a price tag of 1699EUR in Slovenia, which is around $2200. That's why people of US dont understand us Europeans when we say we cannot afford this and that.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



carlosmeldano said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Our problem as Canon users is, that I expect Canon will not be able to deliver a sensor+electronics matching the current Nikon D7100 sensor in terms of IQ. Not in resolution (20 vs. 24 MP) and probably even less so in DR across all ISO settings starting at base ISO nor in Hi-ISO Noise. At best, I expect the 70D sensor to come in "only" 1 EV lower in DR and noise across the entire ISO range.
> ...



New sesnosr? Who knows? It could be, or a refinement of older sensors. 20 MP vs 24 MP...Maybe the 20 outperformed the 24, or maybe not... Maybe the 24 is much better and is going into the 7d2?


----------



## awinphoto (Jun 28, 2013)

One person stated the camera would have only 1 custom function... where do you see that? on the camera photos they are straight on with no mode dial view... I have shot professionally for a decade and only started using custom modes when i got the 5d3, so i can get by with only 1, but just curious...


----------



## vlim (Jun 28, 2013)

> 7D had a price tag of 1699EUR in Slovenia



Wow really expensive, here in France we can buy a new one for 1100€...


----------



## jrista (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



bdunbar79 said:


> I suppose the only thing MORE worthless than DxOmark's sensor scores, are their lens scores. Absolutely worthless.



That's because their lens scores are really "camera setup" scores. Remember that the resolution of a lens or a sensor independently is higher than the resolution of the output of the two of them combined. That's why lenses seem to perform so poorly as a result of DXO's tests. Personally, I prefer the SQF (Subjective Quality Factor) that you get from imatest over the kind of testing DXO does on lenses. SQF is not an actual measure of resolution, it is a scalar number derived from a variety of factors that is far more useful for comparing lenses.


----------



## GmwDarkroom (Jun 28, 2013)

Olivier11986 said:


> Something that seems wasn't mentioned and that was really lacking on the 60D is the joystick controller and I cannot see one navigating through the 19 AF points with only the back wheel, so I think we should see it back on the xxD models


The way the d-pad works on the 60D is far less intuitive than the joystick. It would not translate into the 19 point system at all. The 8 positions on the d-pad are the outer spots and the inner is the "set" button. So you can select AF points directly (i.e. without scrolling with the wheel), but it takes some getting used to.

They'd have to change the operation to function more like the joystick when using the d-pad. The stick is still a better ergonomic device, though. The d-pad is too mushy and it's too easy to poke the set button if you have big fingers.


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon 8D?*



marceloshak said:


> carlosmeldano said:
> 
> 
> > What about Canon 8D?
> ...


8d would suggest a lesser camera than the 7d not a better replacement, according to the Canon numbering scheme... The better camera's have lower numbers in the XD line. The water seems to get a bit blurry between the 7d and 6d as one is ff and the other is aps-c. That's the one thing that's a bit difficult to comprehend... 

The xxd line is the opposite with the numbers going up ie: 20d, 30d, 40d, 50d, etc. So the 7d sits interestingly somewhat by itself with regard to all that...


----------



## jrista (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



starship said:


> > as a scientist you should also know that if you measure irrelevant data you get useless results
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People shouldn't rely on one or the other. They should rely on both, as well as other review sources, all of which are far less valuable than actually holding the product in your hands and testing it out yourself before you buy. A "scientific" measure is a vector measure. It tells you a lot, but about ONE SPECIFIC thing. Scientific studies as the sole resource for basing camera decisions will mean you run the high risk of getting the wrong camera. Actual in-hands experience in a store or with a friends cameras trumps everything.


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 28, 2013)

vlim said:


> > 7D had a price tag of 1699EUR in Slovenia
> 
> 
> 
> Wow really expensive, here in France we can buy a new one for 1100€...


I think he was saying the new 7D, meaning when they first came out...


> New 7D had a price tag of 1699EUR in Slovenia


Note that he stated: "HAD" not has... But I can't be sure...


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



dilbert said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...


here, here! +1


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



jrista said:


> starship said:
> 
> 
> > > as a scientist you should also know that if you measure irrelevant data you get useless results
> ...



+100


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



dilbert said:


> DxO measures the ability of a lens to deliver a quality image. To whit, the 50/1.8 can deliver a higher quality image for than the 600/4.0. Both lenses can be good lenses and deliver exceptional IQ but it is perfectly ok for one lens (even a cheaper lens) to be better than the other *for a given purpose*.
> 
> Just because something is cheap doesn't mean it is bad or low quality, similarly, just because something is expensive doesn't make it high quality.



Which is fine, if their 'given purpose' exactly matches your intended use of the lens. Their 'purpose' is photography in 150 lux illumination - that's warehouse storage lighting, such as this one where 'top men' were _not_ working on a religious artifact...







For that purpose, the crappiest f/1.4 or f/1.8 lens can outscore the best f/4 or f/5.6 lens in existence. 

If you believe that represents a general measure of image quality, you probably think a lens is a camera. Oh wait, you actually _do_ think that...


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > DxO measures the ability of a lens to deliver a quality image. To whit, the 50/1.8 can deliver a higher quality image for than the 600/4.0. Both lenses can be good lenses and deliver exceptional IQ but it is perfectly ok for one lens (even a cheaper lens) to be better than the other *for a given purpose*.
> ...


Good example!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2013)

GmwDarkroom said:


> The way the d-pad works on the 60D is far less intuitive than the joystick. It would not translate into the 19 point system at all. *The 8 positions on the d-pad are the outer spots *and the inner is the "set" button. So you can select AF points directly (i.e. without scrolling with the wheel), but it takes some getting used to.



FWIW, the 6D has the d-pad, but with 10 peripheral points instead of 8, there's not a 1:1 correspondence between direction and a specific point. It still seems to work. I'm sure they could do it with a 19-pt AF, although I agree that a joystick would be better. But I bet we'll see the d-pad, and no joystick, on the 70D.


----------



## whothafunk (Jun 28, 2013)

Krob78 said:


> vlim said:
> 
> 
> > Wow really expensive, here in France we can buy a new one for 1100€...
> ...


Yes, when it first came out. Still, vendors nowadays want approx. 1239 EUR for the 7D. If 5D Mark III were $2500 as it is in the US, I would have had it a long time ago. It's 2990 EUR ($3900).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > DxO measures the ability of a lens to deliver a quality image. To whit, the 50/1.8 can deliver a higher quality image for than the 600/4.0. Both lenses can be good lenses and deliver exceptional IQ but it is perfectly ok for one lens (even a cheaper lens) to be better than the other *for a given purpose*.
> ...



I should point that I'm not bashing DxOMark - I find their measurements very useful (notwithstanding the few occasions where they've clearly gotten a bad copy of a lens and pretended that didn't happen). 

Specifically, in the case of the 50/1.8 vs. 600/4 II comparison, if you actually look at the optical measurements, the 600/4 II is sharper, has less distortion, less vignetting, and less CA. The only metric on which the 50/1.8 outscores the 600/4 II is on transmission, and the way DxOMark weights the scores, that means the 50/1.8 gets a better overall score (and while their measurements are useful, their overall scores _are_ totally useless, IMO). 

People who just look at the top line number and make assumptions about what that means, with no attempt to understand the rationale behind that number, are unfortunately easily deceived (and maybe that's intentional on DxO's part?).

To say that the higher score of the 50/1.8 means it delivers 'better image quality' is ludicrous. The 50/1.8's higher score simply means it lets in more light...which is pretty obvious from the specified max aperture of the lens.


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 28, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...





> To say that the higher score of the 50/1.8 means it delivers 'better image quality' is ludicrous. The 50/1.8's higher score simply means it lets in more light...which is pretty obvious from the specified max aperture of the lens.


Indeed, that is pretty obvious... As well, your remarks regarding purpose, quite pivotal with regard to the context of this discussion...


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 28, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> 60D AF ----> Rebel.
> 7D AF ----> 70D



The base af is the same, but they do some tuning - for the 70d it'd be paramount that it's more precise than the 7d1 af (even 60d is better) and can use the enhanced precision of the latest Canon lenses like 70-300L & 24-70L2 ... the 5d3/1dx can, the 5d2-copy af 6d cannot, let's hope for the best concerning new crop releases.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 28, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> Krob78 said:
> 
> 
> > vlim said:
> ...



$2500 in the US? I am seriously wondering how people come up with this -- yeah you get your once in a while super sales through ebay, but the new price of the 5d3 is still above 3k. Even used and refurbs are all selling above $2600 (before buying my 6d I was hunting for the fabled $2500 mk3, and in 2 months of seaching the best i found was refurb for $2700)


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 28, 2013)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> whothafunk said:
> 
> 
> > Krob78 said:
> ...


You're right Chuck! I got really lucky and got mine brand new for $2700 due to a friend wanting a 24-105mm kit lens and already owning a 5d3. I just let him know that I was buying a 5d3 and could order the kit if he wanted to pay for the lens... He bought it from me for just a little under the going retail at the time, leaving me with an excellent deal on my 5d MkIII. 

That scenario worked out well for me and if someone puts an ad on in some of the forums, suggesting what they are trying to do, it can work out as a win-win for both parties, like it did for me!


----------



## whothafunk (Jun 28, 2013)

Sorry, I could have sworn I see prices around 2500-2600 for the 5DIII here on CR every once in a while. Apologies

Either way, you still get it a LOT cheaper


----------



## vlim (Jun 28, 2013)

> Wow really expensive, here in France we can buy a new one for 1100€...
> I think he was saying the new 7D, meaning when they first came out...
> Quote
> New 7D had a price tag of 1699EUR in Slovenia
> ...



Sorry i misunderstood it, you're right


----------



## Aglet (Jun 28, 2013)

Won't be surprised if 70d's sensor-system is only marginally improved over best recent 18MP unit for read noise performance. Canon will count on Digic 5's improved processing to get cleaner jpgs out of camera and maybe even DPP's algorithms will be able to pull a bit more from its raw files.
I doubt there is any major sensor improvement in this model but, even if it's a little bit better than the 60d, it'll be a welcome benefit. Combined with more AF points and the really handy articulating display, I might even buy one to replace my last 60d if DxOmark shows improved SNR at low ISO.


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 28, 2013)

Krob78 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



And my original point was that it is flawed to use a single number to rate lenses.... We all rate the metrics differently because we have different constraints/needs. And I never said "better image quality", I said "better lens".... there is a big difference. If I want to take a picture of Fluffy the cat rubbing her head on my ankles, a 50F1.8 is the better lens. If I want to take a picture of a distant animal, the 600F4.0 is a better lens. Intended use is a far more important metric than the rated ones, but how can you put that metric into a table for everyone when the intended use differs so much? There is a limit to how much you can "dumb down" the information before it becomes useless... and a single ratings number is past that point.

In the 50F1.8 vs 600F4.0 comparison, the 600F4.0 lens beats the 50F1.8 in every metric except transmission... The way DXO chooses to weight the metrics gives a better score for the 50F1.8. The weighting that they have chosen biases the results so that a fast lens beats a slower lens... they obviously put great store on how fast a lens is.... this is thier bias... my bias is sharpness.... for someone else it might be weight... or cost.... or focusing distance.... or AF speed.... there is no easy answer and a single number rating is ******* to failure.


----------



## pj1974 (Jun 28, 2013)

The 70D will hopefully provide a lot of bang for the buck... which will hopefully help fuel a healthy and continuing competition between major DSLR manufacturers for a decently priced 7DmkII eventually. 

I bought a 7D quite soon after it came out. I paid a premium for that (ie didn't wait for half a year to a year, till the price dropped)- but the photos I captured with it (and still do!) are worth every Aussie cent! 

Oh yes, a quick PS... Please, people who think the 7DmkII will be an APS-H..... THAT SENSOR SIZE IS DEAD ALREADY! 

Regards

Paul


----------



## GmwDarkroom (Jun 28, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> FWIW, the 6D has the d-pad, but with 10 peripheral points instead of 8, there's not a 1:1 correspondence between direction and a specific point. It still seems to work. I'm sure they could do it with a 19-pt AF, although I agree that a joystick would be better. But I bet we'll see the d-pad, and no joystick, on the 70D.


I haven't used the 6D, but I know the 60D would be more intuitive if the d-pad moved the selection -- which I assume is how they deal with more than 9 AF points -- instead of made the selection. Then, as if to complicate things with the mushy pad, toggle that point between all points and that point. When trying to jamb your thumb between your face and the camera while selecting through the viewfinder, it's really not great. Fortunately for my personal use, I am nearly always using the center point or all points, so it's an easy toggle using the set button.

Assuming I don't buy a 6D, I'm definitely going to have to change my ways for the next camera.


----------



## pedro (Jun 28, 2013)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> whothafunk said:
> 
> 
> > Krob78 said:
> ...


The 5D3's price tag should be considerably lower about 5 month from now, I also wonder what price tag a 7DII will get. Bought my 5D3 at a brick and mortar store, still paying CHF 3.5k. But there's no regrets. At USD 2.5k a 7DII must be an outstanding cam, as the FF 6D is even lower priced.


----------



## pedro (Jun 28, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> Sorry, I could have sworn I see prices around 2500-2600 for the 5DIII here on CR every once in a while. Apologies
> 
> Either way, you still get it a LOT cheaper



There was a rebate program, and I guess they did it on e-bay as well.


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



unfocused said:


> Semi-random thoughts:
> 
> Obviously Canon was B.S.ing when they said they couldn't have both a pop up flash and wi-fi on the 6D.



I don't remember reading that. I read that the reason was because of the larger pentaprism needed for the full frame.

I could be wrong. Can you cite where Canon said that Wifi was the reason for no flash on the 6D?


----------



## marinien (Jun 28, 2013)

Dick said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I predicted this like a year ago.
> ...



I'd say it's not impossible. The 1Ds series and 1D series had the AF coverage surface of 8x15mm. The 1D X has the AF coverage of 8x19mm. It's still smaller than the Canon APS-C sensor size, but not much. 

I hope someone could enlighten us on this question.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



AcutancePhotography said:


> I could be wrong. Can you cite where Canon said that Wifi was the reason for no flash on the 6D?



I don't have a source either, but I suspect that gps is more of a reason than wifi because the chip needs to look up for obvious reasons ... for the same reason the 70d seems to have a flash, but lacks gps.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Marsu42 said:


> I don't have a source either, but I suspect that gps is more of a reason than wifi because the chip needs to look up for obvious reasons ... for the same reason the 70d seems to have a flash, but lacks gps.



I don't see any reason antennae for both GPS and WiFi could not be run outside the magnesium alloy chassis but under the plastic/rubberized covering of that metal chassis.

IMO, this is all feature differentiation (and profiteering) by Canon - i.e. if you want GPS with _this_ model, pay us for a GP-E2; we included it as a feature in _that_ model to appeal to that particular market segment.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



neuroanatomist said:


> IMO, this is all feature differentiation (and profiteering) by Canon - i.e. if you want GPS with _this_ model, pay us for a GP-E2; we included it as a feature in _that_ model to appeal to that particular market segment.



As usual, you might be correct - marketing is about squeezing as much money out of people but only up to the point when they'd feel ripped off or made fools of - but if there is any seemingly compelling reason for cut specs will be readily accepted by the crowd, as just proven by me :-o



pj1974 said:


> The 70D will hopefully provide a lot of bang for the buck... which will hopefully help fuel a healthy and continuing competition between major DSLR manufacturers for a decently priced 7DmkII eventually.



Don't hold your breath - Even if the 70d has an updated sensor+wifi over the 7d1 it will have a hard time competing against the 24mp/51pt-af Nikon d7100, even more than the "low light king" 6d vs d600... but of course that depends what price tag Canon has in mind.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



AcutancePhotography said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Semi-random thoughts:
> ...



I recall discussions to that effect at the time the 6D was released, but then again, it could just be my drug-addled child-of-the-sixties brain misremembering. Not a big deal anyway. 

The point actually (and it was a small point in the entire post) was essentially the same as Neuro and Marsu: sometimes the "technical" reasons why a feature is not included turn out to be not so technical and have a lot more to do with market segmentation.

I do find it interesting that between wifi and GPS, they chose wifi. I'm indifferent to both, but I guess they had market research that showed the target audience wants to be able to instantly upload images or video to social media sites.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Marsu42 said:


> but if there is any seemingly compelling reason for cut specs will be readily accepted by the crowd, as just proven by me



The Canon Marketing department gratefully thanks you for your understanding.


----------



## schill (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



unfocused said:


> I do find it interesting that between wifi and GPS, they chose wifi. I'm indifferent to both, but I guess they had market research that showed the target audience wants to be able to instantly upload images or video to social media sites.



For me, I'm much more interested in wifi over gps (although both would be fine). I have zero interest in social media and uploading images wirelessly is not important to me. 

What I am interested in is wireless remote control of the camera.

I'm not likely to pick up a 70D, but I do want to see how they approach the 7D II. I'd like to see wifi for remote control and built-in rf remote flash control.


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 28, 2013)

pj1974 said:


> Oh yes, a quick PS... Please, people who think the 7DmkII will be an APS-H..... THAT SENSOR SIZE IS DEAD ALREADY!



I agree... APS-H would need a larger mirror... which means clearance problems with APS-C lenses.... If it can only be used with FF lenses, why not just make it a FF. It was a stop-gap when introduced because chip yields were not high enough on FF sized sensors.... those days are long past.


----------



## x-vision (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Don Haines said:


> What I find interesting is that the ISO range is the same as the T5i.... there really isn't much of a difference in size of pixels between 18 and 20 Mpixels.... I would have expected that if they had gone to a newer process that the ISO range would have exceeded the T5i, so *my bet is the same technology as before for the sensor* with further improvements to "live view" like we have seen on the last few lower-end releases.



+1000

I'm still expecting some improvement, though.
A 5DII-->6D type of improvement, where high ISOs (3200 and above) should be progressively cleaner compared to the 60D, for example.
We'll see.



> Canon also said that it was to be the 7D2 that was the "game changer". That's when I would expect to see any signifianly better technology emerge.



Exactly. 

It's only natural that new tech is introduced on higher-end bodies first.
Considering that Canon did a full refresh of their FF lineup last year, the 7DII is the best candidate right now for the new tech introduction.


----------



## thealfonz (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



dgatwood said:


> whothafunk said:
> 
> 
> > I really don't see all the hassle regarding GPS. I think it's useless. GPS is useful in cars and mobile phones if you're lost, but geo-tagging? Couldn't care less and certainly will not be a deal maker or breaker.
> ...



While I understand the convenience of a built in GPS, personally I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker compared to all of the other amazing features the camera seems to offer; you have options at least. The GPS accessory, or an external 3rd party GPS that you leave in your bag and sync up later in Lightroom. Yes, it would be great if that extra step wasn't needed, but I doubt you'll see GPS in a 7DmkII - if Canon wants to maintain the ruggedness and weather sealing of the original 7D, I doubt you'll see GPS or wifi given the need for the top plastic plate....

That said, obviously if you feel the camera won't suit your needs, I hope something comes along soon that does


----------



## x-vision (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



AvTvM said:


> I expect Canon will not be able to deliver a sensor+electronics matching the current Nikon D7100 sensor in terms of IQ. Not in resolution (20 vs. 24 MP) and probably even less so in DR across all ISO settings starting at base ISO nor in Hi-ISO Noise.



My prediction is that the 70D will lag behind the D7100 in terms of DR.
In terms of ISO/noise, however, the 70D should be able to match (and maybe even exceed) the D7100. 

The D7100 got a high overall DxO score because of its high DR.
But if you look at the ISO/noise measurements, it's not all that good. 

The 70D doesn't need to be much better than the current 18mp sensor to match the D7100 in ISO/noise.
Of course for DR it's pretty certain that D7100 will be a clear winner.


----------



## J.R. (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



x-vision said:


> Of course for DR it's pretty certain that D7100 will be a clear winner.



I don't think Canon cares about DR vis-a-vis the Nikons ... that could only be so because the most of the users of the cameras also don't care about DR ... I'm no longer sure if I should care either. 

More DR in canon cameras is certainly welcome, but it isn't all that matters.


----------



## carlosmeldano (Jun 28, 2013)

*dual pixel cmos AF*

*dual pixel cmos autofocus*

http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-eos-70d-dual-pixel-auto-focus-specs-leaked/

machine translated, but it seems that this is a completely new autofocus technology that works on the whole sensor surface. if it works well and software is implemented well (not like @ eos m first), it'd be awesome.

seems like both conventional and live view autofocus will be effective.


----------



## Abraxx (Jun 28, 2013)

Looks like a nice update.
Question is how the sensor performes in RAW?
Everything else looks nice as a second body to a 5D3.  
And I still see room for a 7D2 or 8D, dual digic6, better alu body, fast 10-12fps, even higher ISO, dual card slot, 
wifi is great for so many things, I hope same battery as 5D3...
20MP is just fine on APS-C
But price... Oh well, I fear between 6D and 5D3


My 2 cents
8)


----------



## Wildfire (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: dual pixel cmos AF*



carlosmeldano said:


> *dual pixel cmos autofocus*
> 
> http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-eos-70d-dual-pixel-auto-focus-specs-leaked/
> 
> ...



According to that link, the computational power required to use this new type of live view AF means that the Rebel series won't get it for a while. Sounds promising for the mirrorless crowd.


----------



## photo212 (Jun 28, 2013)

The item I'm still wanting to read is whether the body and controls are 60D/Rebel-ish or 50D/7D-ish

Anyone with real insight? Or do we still just have guesses and wishful thinking to this issue?


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



carlosmeldano said:


> dual pixel cmos autofocus



To me, this seems to be the same tech they started using on the 600d, but now the whole sensor is covered with phase detect pixels and they seem to be able to handle the high processing power demand.

This is great news for the video crowd, but bad news for traditional old-school still shooters like me who only use lv on tripod ... if Canon has the edge in lv/video af, they probably can get away with a straight viewfinder phase af copy from the 7d1 and nowhere near the -2ev/51pt-af of the d7100 :-\


----------



## mb66energy (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Marsu42 said:


> carlosmeldano said:
> 
> 
> > dual pixel cmos autofocus
> ...



I have to recheck my 600D ... I think it was the 650D and the EOS M where it started?!

I am not shure it is just for the video crowd - think about an "adjustment mode" which makes AFMA due to the comparison between the fast phase detect (via special unit) and sensor phase+contrast AF ...u


----------



## mb66energy (Jun 28, 2013)

It's nice to have the spec list but ... the more interesting part is
* real world IQ and
* real world operability

The nicest thing on the spec list is the fact that they use the same battery like other pro(sumer) cameras!

I really like the tension before the release and my reasoning if ... I will replace my trusted 40Ds or not ... got to FF or stay with APS-C ... wait for Canons FF mirrorless or not ... helps me while curing a broken leg and bad weather


----------



## c.d.embrey (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



schill said:


> For me, I'm much more interested in wifi ... I have zero interest in social media and uploading images wirelessly is not important to me.



For *Commercial, Editorial and News Photographers (PJs)* WiFi can be a *BFD!!* WiFi isn't just for uploading photos of your lunch.


----------



## mb66energy (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



c.d.embrey said:


> schill said:
> 
> 
> > For me, I'm much more interested in wifi ... I have zero interest in social media and uploading images wirelessly is not important to me.
> ...



Another interesting application of Wifi is using a tablet or phone as wireless remote WITH VIEWFINDER CAPABILITY. Especially for video this might help to control the camera silently - without clicking noises while setting aperture or exp. time.


----------



## Tanja (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



mb66energy said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > schill said:
> ...



yep. i love the 6D for taking remote photos of critters.

and sorry but some people are really restricted in one's thinking.
seeing beyond one's own nose often helps to get the whole picture.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



mb66energy said:


> Another interesting application of Wifi is using a tablet or phone as wireless remote WITH VIEWFINDER CAPABILITY.



Or having the Profoto strobes track power - change aperture or ISO without having to adjust. Nice touch of extra freedom.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jun 28, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



starship said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > I suppose the only thing MORE worthless than DxOmark's sensor scores, are their lens scores. Absolutely worthless.
> ...



I'm a scientist too and that's why their scores bother me. I'm serious, do you remember when the 70-200 f/2.8L II IS lens came out? They scored it lower than the v1. THEN, LATER ON, about 6 months I think, the v2 suddently jumped the v1 in score. It automagically just became a better lens out of thin air.

Which tells me when they do their lens scores, there's more to it than just the lens, unlike Hasselblad, who does it correctly. 

In science, once you have questionable data and your peers catch it, it raises red flags about all of your data. This is very troublesome.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 29, 2013)

mb66energy said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > carlosmeldano said:
> ...



I mixed that up, it was the 650d, the Rebels are in so quick succession I'm getting confused :->



mb66energy said:


> I am not sure it is just for the video crowd - think about an "adjustment mode" which makes AFMA due to the comparison between the fast phase detect (via special unit) and sensor phase+contrast AF ...u



Canon might include some auto-afma adjustment mode, but that's the same thing Focal or Magic Lantern does right now, so no big deal - and it has nothing to do with the on-sensor phase detect because that should automatically sync with the on-sensor contrast af anyway.

The whole on-sensor af is really for video people who don't mf, still shooters on tripod or people hold their dsl(r) in non-reflex p&s mode. But I admit that if Canon should include a touch screen it'd be attractive that the camera instantly focuses where you touch, anywhere on the screen.



bdunbar79 said:


> In science, once you have questionable data and your peers catch it, it raises red flags about all of your data. This is very troublesome.



In science, when you are caught with your pants down you either discretely fix your study or discredit your peers :-> ... btw my favorite scam site btw is the German traumflieger.de who seem to simply make up their (surprisingly precise ) data out of thin air, proof is that they are able to measure the 70-300L @f4 @300mm, my copy cannot do that 

http://www.traumflieger.de/objektivtest/open_test/canon_70_300_L_IS/overview.php


----------



## Tom W (Jun 29, 2013)

New sensor sounds promising. Hope it's cleaner.

My 5D3 is lonely.


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 29, 2013)

Tom W said:


> New sensor sounds promising. Hope it's cleaner.
> 
> My 5D3 is lonely.


Ha, ha! Mine is lonely now too!


----------



## dgatwood (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Marsu42 said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
> 
> 
> > I could be wrong. Can you cite where Canon said that Wifi was the reason for no flash on the 6D?
> ...



GPS does *not* need to "look up". If it did, then GPS would stop working when you turned the camera to take a photo in portrait orientation, and a metal-backed phone would not be able to support GPS at all, because it would not be able to see the GPS signals coming from any satellites that aren't behind you. Radio signals just don't work that way unless you're using a directional antenna.




thealfonz said:


> While I understand the convenience of a built in GPS, personally I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker compared to all of the other amazing features the camera seems to offer; you have options at least. The GPS accessory, or an external 3rd party GPS that you leave in your bag and sync up later in Lightroom.



The 3rd party GPS devices are A. one extra device to forget to turn on, B. one extra set of batteries to forget to charge, and C. an extra step at the end. The Canon version is very clumsy to use if you're using an external flash, though I guess it also supports logging mode, in which case it becomes an extra device to forget to turn on, extra batteries to forget to charge, and an extra step at the end.... Either way, having experienced the way cameras should behave with my iPhone, I'm finding myself more and more disappointed in a company like Canon being seemingly unable to do something so simple as in-body GPS.




 thealfonz said:


> Yes, it would be great if that extra step wasn't needed, but I doubt you'll see GPS in a 7DmkII - if Canon wants to maintain the ruggedness and weather sealing of the original 7D, I doubt you'll see GPS or wifi given the need for the top plastic plate....



I can think of no technical reason why Canon could not mount its GPS and Wi-Fi antennas inside the display bezel like Apple does with the Wi-Fi antennas on the MacBook Pro. It's not like the screen will ever be made of metal. And if they find that the signal isn't good enough for some reason, there are lots of interesting tricks they could do to get around it, like adding a couple of tiny bands of metal somewhere on the front, separated by rubber seals from the rest of the body.


----------



## Dylan777 (Jun 29, 2013)

Krob78 said:


> Tom W said:
> 
> 
> > New sensor sounds promising. Hope it's cleaner.
> ...



Mine was too...until 2nd 5 III came


----------



## Krob78 (Jun 29, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> Krob78 said:
> 
> 
> > Tom W said:
> ...


+10 Now that's a nice combo!


----------



## schill (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Tanja said:


> mb66energy said:
> 
> 
> > c.d.embrey said:
> ...



I really wish that this part of my original post made it into the quoted text:

"What I am interested in is wireless remote control of the camera."


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



dgatwood said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have a source either, but I suspect that gps is more of a reason than wifi because the chip needs to look up for obvious reasons ... for the same reason the 70d seems to have a flash, but lacks gps.
> ...



The strongest GPS signals come from directly overhead, but most of the time you can see between 7 to 10 satellites spread over the sky. The LEO satellites arc across the sky in passes ranging from a few minutes to several hours, we have 6 dishes at work tracking them so it makes a great visual aid to locating them . The more satellites you can see, the greater the accuracy of your position, but 3 gets you pretty close, and even if you turned your camera upside down and lost all signals, the GPS unit remembers its last known location.


----------



## TheBadger (Jun 29, 2013)

Finally!!! Looks good enough! Now I'm really torn between this and the 6D.


----------



## canonic (Jun 29, 2013)

_"In-Camera HDR"_
Aha, the new Canon sensor will not have very much DR. In best case same as 6D?! Personally i doubt it.
Anyway, this function "In-Camera HDR" will work, probably, only with Jpeg-s.


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 29, 2013)

canonic said:


> _"In-Camera HDR"_
> Aha, the new Canon sensor will not have very much DR. In best case same as 6D?! Personally i doubt it.
> Anyway, this function "In-Camera HDR" will work, probably, only with Jpeg-s.


If it's like in the 5D3 then you can shoot the bracketed shots in RAW and get a preview in jpeg, then you can still use the RAW-files


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



expatinasia said:


> Hobby Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Ok no more about that :
> ...


You're right but it'll probably be a while before we move back. I'll keep travel back there though. Yes winter does things to us, when it's dark for three months you have to do something to cope


----------



## J.R. (Jun 29, 2013)

Hobby Shooter said:


> canonic said:
> 
> 
> > _"In-Camera HDR"_
> ...



True, but if it's like the 6D then you only get the Jpeg file  I expect a similar HDR feature (if at all) in the 70D.


----------



## J.R. (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



dilbert said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > x-vision said:
> ...



Personally, I don't expect to be overwhelmed by the 70D simply because if a 7D2 is in the pipeline, the richer features will go to the 7D2 exclusively. I expect the 7D2 and the 70D to co-exist just like the 5D3 and the 6D.


----------



## dgatwood (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Don Haines said:


> The strongest GPS signals come from directly overhead, but most of the time you can see between 7 to 10 satellites spread over the sky. The LEO satellites arc across the sky in passes ranging from a few minutes to several hours, we have 6 dishes at work tracking them so it makes a great visual aid to locating them . The more satellites you can see, the greater the accuracy of your position, but 3 gets you pretty close, and even if you turned your camera upside down and lost all signals, the GPS unit remembers its last known location.



Right. I keep forgetting it's purely time-based and not vector-based, so there's no real precision loss even if all three birds are in the same general direction (so long as they aren't collinear). 

Either way, the point remains that I would not expect an antenna under the display bezel (front face) to be significantly worse than an antenna on top, as that's the most common antenna orientation for devices like phones while you're using them.



dilbert said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > I can think of no technical reason why Canon could not mount its GPS and Wi-Fi antennas inside the display bezel like Apple does with the Wi-Fi antennas on the MacBook Pro. It's not like the screen will ever be made of metal. And if they find that the signal isn't good enough for some reason, there are lots of interesting tricks they could do to get around it, like adding a couple of tiny bands of metal somewhere on the front, separated by rubber seals from the rest of the body.
> ...



The one on the back. There's usually not a way to attach an antenna usefully to a bezel itself. Instead, they're typically screwed to part of the frame that supports the display panel, which in turn holds them right behind the bezel. I wouldn't expect bezel antennas to interfere with the removable cover (or at least not any more than having a fragile display panel behind a removable cover).


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



dgatwood said:


> Either way, the point remains that I would not expect an antenna under the display bezel (front face) to be significantly worse than an antenna on top, as that's the most common antenna orientation for devices like phones while you're using them.





dgatwood said:


> GPS does *not* need to "look up".



In my experience gps doesn't *need* to look up, but it certainly works better the less matter there is between the gps sensor and the satellites. At least with my dedicated gps logger, more occlusion means less precision and/or more battery drain because the gps needs to keep trying to find a signal.



dgatwood said:


> Either way, the point remains that I would not expect an antenna under the display bezel (front face) to be significantly worse than an antenna on top, as that's the most common antenna orientation for devices like phones while you're using them.



That point was already made by Dr. Neuro, and it's indeed a mystery to me why they put it next to the prism instead of under the lcd display ... but then again I never screwed my camera open to see how the wiring is how it's built.


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 29, 2013)

J.R. said:


> Hobby Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > canonic said:
> ...


Oh I didn't know that.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 29, 2013)

dilbert said:


> The 70D needs to be compelling and different enough to get lots of 1xxxD, xxxD and xxD users to upgrade to it. The 60D was very underwhelming in that regard.



Beyond any specs, the xxd line will always have customers like me who hate the Rebel ergonomics, small (grip) size, no back wheel, no top lcd, completely cripppled fw - I'd pay more just to not be bothered by these problems.



Hobby Shooter said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Hobby Shooter said:
> ...



I couldn't believe it either at first when I tried the 6d, and I am still wondering if I got it wrong: The fact that Canon forces the *source* files to be deleted is so impudent that it knocks your socks right off... and all reviews I know missed that, they only state "jpeg only" for hdr but don't say that it's impossible to do a custom hdr from raw afterwards in postprocessing and use the in-camera jpeg as a quick preview.


----------



## robbinzo (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

I like the look of this a lot.
I was almost about to buy the 6D with the 24-105mm f/4 but now I'm thinking 70D with EFS 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6.......or maybe get myself a 17-40 mm which would be a 27-64mm equivalent walkaround.
This changes things somewhat!
I like the specs. The two things that put me off the 6D are the AF and no built in flash. I don't much want a pop up flash but would like an integrated speedlite transmitter.


----------



## Tanja (Jun 29, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> I couldn't believe it either at first when I tried the 6d, and I am still wondering if I got it wrong: The fact that Canon forces the *source* files to be deleted is so impudent that it knocks your socks right off... and all reviews I know missed that, they only state "jpeg only" for hdr but don't say that it's impossible to do a custom hdr from raw afterwards in postprocessing and use the in-camera jpeg as a quick preview.



NOBODY.. really interested in HDR will do in camera HDR.


i have my HDR settings on one of the custom functions.
even when the 6D had the same HDR functions as the 5D MK3 i would never use it.

and imo in camera HDR is pretty useless as preview too.
HDR is too much dependend on the postprocessing.

in camera HDR is like art filters in P&S cameras.
worthless if you are really interested in your photos.

my 2 cents.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 29, 2013)

Tanja said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > I couldn't believe it either at first when I tried the 6d, and I am still wondering if I got it wrong: The fact that Canon forces the *source* files to be deleted is so impudent that it knocks your socks right off... and all reviews I know missed that, they only state "jpeg only" for hdr but don't say that it's impossible to do a custom hdr from raw afterwards in postprocessing and use the in-camera jpeg as a quick preview.
> ...



I dare to disagree, because there are two types of hdr I do:

* High quality hdr, I'm doing this a lot, often in combination with panorama or focus stacking. For this you just need the raw files, a lot of time and processing power & and end up with all raw sources plus a 100mb+ tif file.

* Quick hdr when I do some walkaround and know there's some higher dr in a static scene than the sensor can take (like the sun/sky/shadow, a reflection, ...) that doesn't require high quality postprocessing. For this I'd find in-camera hdr very useful because as far as I tried it the 6d/5d3 are very good at assembling the shots.

The problem with the 6d here is that you *have* to decide up front if you want to postprocess or do in-camera because it deletes all source files, jpeg as well as raw, and you end up only with a jpeg with known shortcomings in comparison like no way to adjust the wb afterwards. Deleting the source files as an option is ok if you're on holiday and don't want to fill your cards with 7x brackets, but being forced to do so imho is just ridiculous.


----------



## arabstrap303 (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



robbinzo said:


> I like the look of this a lot.
> I was almost about to buy the 6D with the 24-105mm f/4 but now I'm thinking 70D with EFS 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6.......or maybe get myself a 17-40 mm which would be a 27-64mm equivalent walkaround.
> This changes things somewhat!
> I like the specs. The two things that put me off the 6D are the AF and no built in flash. I don't much want a pop up flash but would like an integrated speedlite transmitter.



I was about to do exactly the same as you and bite the bullet on a 6d with the 24-105, but the 70d spec is a real spanner in the works. Provided the price is substantially cheaper than the 7d, which you can now get for around £700 for the body, it'll be a very good deal. 

The flash is no worries - if the 70d can perform anywhere near the 6d at high ISO's it'll be more than adequate. On the other hand, the wifi on the 6d and now 70d is an extremely compelling selling point for me - I've been doing astrophotography with an rx100 (don't laugh - it's amazing what one can achieve with that pocket rocket!) and the idea of using a phone as a remote is really nice.

Lenses wise, I'll take the cheapest possible kit EF-S lens going for when I need the wide, and I'm still thinking I'll get the 24-105L, the 40mm pancake and a 70-300 - all EF. I'm not interested in pricey EF-S lenses at all because at some point I can see a full frame body being purchased - I'd rather buy EF lenses and deal with the scale factor.

If I can get all that for say £1600 (about $2400) - which might be possible with grey imports, than that's quite a kit. Is it necessary to spend another £500/$800 for the 6d? Probably not. I expect the 7dmk2 when it's announced will be more costly than the 6d - and I'd definitely rather have the 6d then a crop body at that sort of price. 

Anyway, it's all speculation - let's see what the reviews say first.


----------



## meli (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



arabstrap303 said:


> ... if the 70d can perform anywhere near the 6d at high ISO's it'll be more than adequate...



Why not 2 stops better than the 6D? why limit ourselves when we delve into the realm of fantasy? :


----------



## Dick (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



arabstrap303 said:


> if the 70d can perform anywhere near the 6d



It is ridiculous to compare crop bodies to FF bodies like that. The outcome is very different with the same settings. DOF, graininess, noise, framing, .... You cannot compare this stuff.


----------



## Rocguy (Jun 29, 2013)

I have to admit these specs look pretty good. Not perfect, but would have been enough to get me to buy this instead of jumping to FF and the 6D when I did. My original plan, in January, was to get the 70D when it came out (as an upgrade from my t4i) and at some later date upgrade again to FF. But I'm glad I got tired of waiting and skipped this middle step. It would have just been a long delay in getting to FF. Now that I've gone to the 6D I see how unnecessary it would have been to stay shooting crop any longer than I was since I was interested in going to FF at some point. 

I'm still amazed at the quality of pics my 6D produces. I shoot in low light a lot and still laugh at the high ISO I use and still get awesome photos. I hope those that will buy the 70D will be able to say the same. Like I said it does look like it will be a pretty good camera. I hope those of you planning on getting one love it. But I'm glad I did not wait.


----------



## arabstrap303 (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



Dick said:


> arabstrap303 said:
> 
> 
> > if the 70d can perform anywhere near the 6d
> ...





meli said:


> arabstrap303 said:
> 
> 
> > ... if the 70d can perform anywhere near the 6d at high ISO's it'll be more than adequate...
> ...



Blimey quite the over-reaction! OK, I phrased it wrong with 'anywhere near'. If the 70d has decent enough high ISO performance for my purposes (hobbyist level astrophotography), which I am sure it will, that will be enough for me. I'm not that stupid that I expect it to be of the same quality. Like I said, I value the features of the 6D like WIFI - I know most people think it's a gimmick and everything has to be about photo quality, but if the 70d has those and I get reasonable quality, that's fine and the extra cash can go on lenses.


----------



## Alino (Jun 29, 2013)

Hi all, I'm new here, It's my first post.

With the 70D, I would like the return of the double fontions on the buttons of the top, near the LCD.

When I heve upgrade from 20D to 60D, this point has been very desapointing to me.

Xcuse for my poor english.


----------



## Hobby Shooter (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



dilbert said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > x-vision said:
> ...


No it wasn't. I went from 400D to 60D and was overwhelmed. It helped me take the next step in my photography. On 5D3 now.


----------



## Wildfire (Jun 29, 2013)

You guys will probably think I'm weird, but depending on how improved the 70D sensor turns out, I'm thinking about selling my 6D and going to two or three crop bodies. (Downgrading from FF to crop? zomg!)

I love the sensor in the 6D, but it looks like everything else about the 70D is shaping up to be better than it's bigger FF brother. Faster flash sync, better autofocus, higher fps, articulated screen, built-in flash... I can't think of anything on the 6D that is better besides the sensor (don't use GPS). Switching back to APS-C also means cheaper bodies and lenses, which means I can afford more bodies and lenses! (f/1.8 Sigma zoom anybody?)

I would trade some sensor performance for a bit of everything else. It looks like the 70D is going to offer _a lot_ of everything else.


----------



## jrista (Jun 29, 2013)

Wildfire said:


> You guys will probably think I'm weird, but depending on how improved the 70D sensor turns out, I'm thinking about selling my 6D and going to two or three crop bodies. (Downgrading from FF to crop? zomg!)
> 
> I love the sensor in the 6D, but it looks like everything else about the 70D is shaping up to be better than it's bigger FF brother. Faster flash sync, better autofocus, higher fps, articulated screen, built-in flash... I can't think of anything on the 6D that is better besides the sensor (don't use GPS). Switching back to APS-C also means cheaper bodies and lenses, which means I can afford more bodies and lenses! (f/1.8 Sigma zoom anybody?)
> 
> I would trade some sensor performance for a bit of everything else. It looks like the 70D is going to offer _a lot_ of everything else.



Just don't underestimate the IQ value of those big pixels. You won't get that kind of IQ in a crop body. Even if Canon has made some improvements, and I certainly hope they have (otherwise the 70D IQ will be worse than the 7D IQ), it is unlikely that their 20.2mp APS-C sensor will beat the 6D in terms of IQ. That holds true especially if they have not moved to a new fabrication process...if they stuck with 500nm, then the photodiode area for these pixels will be REALLY SMALL. It would have to be a BSI design in order to make it perform better than the 7D with 500nm transistors (which isn't out of the realm of possibility...just still too early to make the decision to sell a 6D and jump the FF ship just yet, IMO.)


----------



## Robboesan (Jun 29, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKNMeKVEyBI


----------



## pedro (Jun 29, 2013)

jrista said:


> Wildfire said:
> 
> 
> > You guys will probably think I'm weird, but depending on how improved the 70D sensor turns out, I'm thinking about selling my 6D and going to two or three crop bodies. (Downgrading from FF to crop? zomg!)
> ...



That is exactly where my question earlier in this thread pointed at: does "new sensor" also apply to new tech? If things remain as described here, we are still far off from improved high ISO IQ. So the crucial changes will have to be here. As I have a 5D3 I am very interested how Canon will progress in this during the 5D3's "product cycle". Although it is an excellent camera, I am still keen to see better high ISOs. And what I can guess based on the tech centered threads here a lot of it depends on sensor tech AND processing power via DIGIC upgrades.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jun 29, 2013)

pedro said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Wildfire said:
> ...



Better HIGH ISO's aren't the problem, at least not in your 5D3.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 29, 2013)

Wildfire said:


> You guys will probably think I'm weird, but depending on how improved the 70D sensor turns out, I'm thinking about selling my 6D and going to two or three crop bodies. (Downgrading from FF to crop? zomg!)
> 
> I love the sensor in the 6D, but it looks like everything else about the 70D is shaping up to be better than it's bigger FF brother. Faster flash sync, better autofocus, higher fps, articulated screen, built-in flash... I can't think of anything on the 6D that is better besides the sensor (don't use GPS). Switching back to APS-C also means cheaper bodies and lenses, which means I can afford more bodies and lenses! (f/1.8 Sigma zoom anybody?)
> 
> I would trade some sensor performance for a bit of everything else. It looks like the 70D is going to offer _a lot_ of everything else.



Nothing at all weird about that. It's just a case of what your style happens to be. Full frame is not _better_ than APS-C, it's just different. If you don't shoot at high ISOs, if you are more of an "F64" shooter than a wide open romantic bokeh type, if you don't routinely print larger than 2 x 3 feet, then the differences may not be worth the cost. 

It is impossible to determine from a well-made print if it was shot on APS-C or full-frame. Much of the supposed "image quality" differences that full frame shooters think they see can be ascribed to confirmation bias. 

Choose whatever works for your style and your budget and don't be intimidated. 

Finally, remember the cardinal rule: "if you want to take more interesting pictures, stand in front of more interesting things."


----------



## pedro (Jun 29, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



@bdunbar: of course you are right! as you know me from other threads, I am always dreaming of better high ISOs, but I am absolutely happy for the moment with anything what my 5D3 delievers! It's a great cam. So, once Canon turns its next page in sensor tech as mentioned above, it will get much more exciting as I am looking forward to an overnext 5D body...


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jun 29, 2013)

Oh pedro, that's right! You're the H1 ISO nut on flickr!


----------



## pedro (Jun 29, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> Oh pedro, that's right! You're the H1 ISO nut on flickr!



*Yes, Sir! 8) * Today I was at a wedding. A weddingtog was shooting an 1Dx with battery grip, looks cool.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 29, 2013)

pedro said:


> A weddingtog was shooting an 1Dx with battery grip, looks cool.



Hard to shoot a 1D X without the battery grip. I suppose a hacksaw could be used, but I won't vouch for functionality after removal...


----------



## pedro (Jun 29, 2013)

@neuro: As I do only know the 1Dx by the posts about it and never held one in my hand, is there an extra battery power unit (battery grip) by design? that's great of course and necessary. I feel like a fool by mentioning it the way I did it... :-[


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jun 29, 2013)

pedro said:


> @neuro: As I do only know the 1Dx by the posts about it and never held one in my hand, is there an extra battery power unit (battery grip) by design? that's great of course and necessary.



The grip is integrated - part of the body, all one piece. The 1-series bodies are similar in size to other bodies with an accessory battery grip. The 1-series also use a larger, more powerful battery.


----------



## overniven (Jun 29, 2013)

I've been looking for a replacement for my T1i for some time. I wanted to wait and see what the 70D offered. Right now my budget (based on some assumptions) will allow for either the 6D, 5DMII or a 70D. 

I'm going to wait and see what the more educated say about real world results on the 70D. Particularly, I'm interested in low light (noise) handling. Of course I'm interested in dipping my toes into the FF world, but that option will trigger the sale of my EF-S 17-55 and the acquisition of something like a 24-70 or the 24-105 (more realistic). I can't imagine that both the 70D or the 6D aren't worlds better with AF than my current camera.

It's good to see the 70D look like a step forward instead of the sidestep that the T5i looks like. It sure makes next year's rebel and the 7D upgrade seem a whole lot more interesting.


----------



## pedro (Jun 29, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > @neuro: As I do only know the 1Dx by the posts about it and never held one in my hand, is there an extra battery power unit (battery grip) by design? that's great of course and necessary.
> ...



Thank you, neuro.


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 29, 2013)

I am surprised that nobody so far has asked the big question about the 70D..... Does the mode dial go all the way around?


----------



## bseitz234 (Jun 29, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> I am surprised that nobody so far has asked the big question about the 70D..... Does the mode dial go all the way around?



It definitely looks like it locks!!!1!!1!one!1!

</sarcastic excitement>


----------



## alan_k (Jun 29, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I am surprised that nobody so far has asked the big question about the 70D..... Does the mode dial go all the way around?
> ...



Don't laugh! That was one of the best things about moving from t2i -> 60D. It was pretty easy to inadvertently move the t2i dial when taking it in/out of a camera bag. 

I hadn't thought about the possibility they WOULDN'T have that, but I agree, the photo looks like it has the center release button on the mode dial.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 29, 2013)

Alino said:


> Hi all, I'm new here, It's my first post.



Welcome to the forum 



Alino said:


> With the 70D, I would like the return of the double fontions on the buttons of the top, near the LCD.



Won't happen, Canon nowadays reserves the double button layout for the "pro" bodies 7d/5d while for us cheap Joe Sixpacks with a 70d/6d it's much too confusing


----------



## jrista (Jun 29, 2013)

pedro said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Wildfire said:
> ...



Well, new sensor is new tech regardless. It had to be redesigned to achieve the extra 2.2mp, so it IS new technology. New technology does not inherently always mean new fabrication process...which is what a move to 180nm or 90nm would be. I believe the sensor is "new tech", and I believe it will perform well. The big question is will it be competitive...i.e. performing as well as the top competitor chips. If Canon has not moved to a new fabrication process, and has instead chosen to stay with 500nm, then I do not believe this sensor will perform well relative to the competition. It may be only marginally better than the 7D, assuming the weaker CFA of the 1DX/5DIII is applied.

I don't think Canon can remain competitive in the long term if they continue to rely on an ancient fabrication process. I think the 70D will be EXTREMELY telling in that respect, and could provide hints as to the 7D II and "Big Megapixel" camera due next year. If Canon does stick with a 500nm process, then I'll get a 5D III (as it is definitely better than my 7D at this point) and be done with it. If they finally move to 180nm and Cu interconnects, then I'll wait and see what they do with the 7D II.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*

*POLL TIME: * vote here on how much the 70d will cost and show us all your're a real Canon prophet: 

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=15624.msg285565


----------



## alfredo (Jun 29, 2013)

Let's get (even more) speculative. The leaflet claims HDR and "continuous images" for a time-lapse effect. Can we assume we'll be able to take more than 3-bracketed pictures, or that we'll finally have a software intervalometer? (other than ML, when/if it's ported)


----------



## alan_k (Jun 30, 2013)

I really hope "continuous images into one" includes a good in-camera panorama. Pretty lame when i have to ask my friend for her iphone panoramas.


----------



## preppyak (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



peederj said:


> Might be a nice reach companion to the 5D3 at $1000 intro or thereabouts.





cellomaster27 said:


> It's finally here!!! Hopefully it's a thousand at most.


60D body listed at $1099, so, that is the absolute lowest price it would be. I think the xxD used to list at $1299 or so, and I wouldn't be surprised to see this right around there.


----------



## whothafunk (Jun 30, 2013)

i may have missed the conversation about it, but why is the Spec sheet gone

edit: nevermind, i found out.


----------



## jdramirez (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



preppyak said:


> peederj said:
> 
> 
> > Might be a nice reach companion to the 5D3 at $1000 intro or thereabouts.
> ...



Well... does anyone every really pay list price? My 70-200mm f/2.8L IS mkii is listed at $4000 if I recall correctly. If anyone wants to buy my used one for $3000... give me a call. It is a 25% discount!


----------



## EchoLocation (Jun 30, 2013)

If true, this is extremely surprising and rather awesome. Not too much to complain about on this list in terms of a 70D. I'd guess it comes in at $1299.
To be honest though, nothing short of an EOS-M sized camera with a FF sensor would get me too excited. My gear is good enough that having a smaller size and weight is the only improvement that I can actually claim to need.


----------



## garyknrd (Jun 30, 2013)

I am also really anxious to see the sensor technology. A doctor of engineering I believe, added a remark on another forum that it was impossible for Canon at this stage to catch up with the competition? I know nothing about it but he researched it and came to this conclusion. 
Really curious to see if he is right or hopefully wrong? Regardless, it wont hurt the bottom line of Canon IMO. But interesting to see the direction they are headed.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



jdramirez said:


> Well... does anyone every really pay list price? My 70-200mm f/2.8L IS mkii is listed at $4000 if I recall correctly. If anyone wants to buy my used one for $3000... give me a call. It is a 25% discount!



List price of 70-200 f2.8 IS Mk II is $2,499 http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/lenses-flashes/telephoto-zoom-lenses/ef-70-200mm-f-28l-is-ii-usm?WT.mc_id=C126149 with $300 rebate, price is $2,199. That is the also the price at B&H, Adorama and Amazon and is the mandated minimum advertised price under Canon policies. So, yes, people do pay list price. 

The 25% off list that you are offering brings it down to $1,649. I'm not interested, but others may be.


----------



## CanNotYet (Jun 30, 2013)

Ehm, Canon can easily catch up with Nikon et al. They can just buy the Sony sensors too. The question is if they want to or try to catch up/pass them by with their own sensors?


----------



## unfocused (Jun 30, 2013)

garyknrd said:


> ...A doctor of engineering I believe, added a remark on another forum that it was impossible for Canon at this stage to catch up with the competition? I know nothing about it but he researched it and came to this conclusion...



A dermatologist is an M.D., but if I need a heart bypass, I won't be going to one. Unless your "doctor of engineering" actually works in Canon's research labs, he knows nothing more than you or me.


----------



## jrista (Jun 30, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > garyknrd said:
> ...



Your statement is just as untrue. Canon designs and builds their own lithography equipment, builds their own lenses, their own steppers, and are just as capable of DOING that if they CHOOSE TO as anyone else. I'd also point out that while Sony has spent tens of billions of dollars in borrowed money, putting their bond status to "junk", Canon has been raking in the hundreds of billions through sales alone. Canon is more than capable of spending a billion or two to create a fab capable of fabricating 180nm, 90nm, or even 65nm parts. It is a matter of whether they *choose to or not*. The one thing about Canon is they know when to protect their bottom line...and now really is the time. The market is stiffer, the majority of modern sensor development applies to markets Canon cares nothing about (very small form factor sensors for small form factor devices like phones, phablets and tablets) and which do not present significant competition to their primary markets, devastating natural disasters that are unpredictable, and when they hit require reserves of money to recover from, and at the moment the competition is still barely putting a dent in Canon's dominant market share despite their supposedly radically superior "technology".

If and when Canon actually feels the pain of all the innovation going on in the marketplace, I don't doubt they will compete. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn they have a number of their own sensor manufacturing techniques to improve their designs up their sleeve, which they will drop on the competition when it serves them best. Technology is only part of the game, and if Canon's success and market share are telling in any way, not the most important part.


----------



## killerBEEcamaro (Jun 30, 2013)

this is indeed a nice upgrade from the 60D... i will be upgrading to the 70D and picking up the 5D Mark III soon!!


----------



## erda (Jun 30, 2013)

Not sure if it's been discussed, but does it have MFA?


----------



## Plainsman (Jun 30, 2013)

It was rather stupid of Canon not to give AFMA to the 60D.

I hope this facility returns in the 70D to make it a serious camera.


----------



## jdramirez (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Canon EOS 70D Spec List*



unfocused said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > Well... does anyone every really pay list price? My 70-200mm f/2.8L IS mkii is listed at $4000 if I recall correctly. If anyone wants to buy my used one for $3000... give me a call. It is a 25% discount!
> ...



I wonder which lens I saw that was 50% off. Ehh... but I did buy the 70-200 in like new condition for $1700... so I guess I did get nearly a 25% off discount.


----------



## pedro (Jun 30, 2013)

jrista said:


> Your statement is just as untrue. Canon designs and builds their own lithography equipment, builds their own lenses, their own steppers, and are just as capable of DOING that if they CHOOSE TO as anyone else. I'd also point out that while Sony has spent tens of billions of dollars in borrowed money, putting their bond status to "junk", Canon has been raking in the hundreds of billions through sales alone. Canon is more than capable of spending a billion or two to create a fab capable of fabricating 180nm, 90nm, or even 65nm parts. It is a matter of whether they *choose to or not*. The one thing about Canon is they know when to protect their bottom line...and now really is the time. The market is stiffer, the majority of modern sensor development applies to markets Canon cares nothing about (very small form factor sensors for small form factor devices like phones, phablets and tablets) and which do not present significant competition to their primary markets, devastating natural disasters that are unpredictable, and when they hit require reserves of money to recover from, and at the moment the competition is still barely putting a dent in Canon's dominant market share despite their supposedly radically superior "technology".
> 
> If and when Canon actually feels the pain of all the innovation going on in the marketplace, I don't doubt they will compete. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn they have a number of their own sensor manufacturing techniques to improve their designs up their sleeve, which they will drop on the competition when it serves them best. Technology is only part of the game, and if Canon's success and market share are telling in any way, not the most important part.



There surely are intresting times ahead of us according to jrista. Hope Canon will choose to present a thoroughly new sensor fabrication approach ASAP. 8)


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## tcmatthews (Jun 30, 2013)

If it was out last September I would have bought one to replace my destroyed 60d in a second. But I ended up buying a new 60d so I can wait.

I am not really interested in Live-view auto-focus On sensor focusing unless it is as fast as standard phase detection. I will wait to see the sensor performance. I really need improved ISO performance. I would like a sharper image personally forget video and remove the AA filter. If the performance is not up to snuff I can wait for the 7d II. 

My main concern is that Canon will fail to launch a new sensor process in time and go the way of Kodak. Lets face it normal everyday point and shoots are being replaced by cell phones and with out the low end mass market consumer products the DSLR will get much more expensive as R&D is spread out over fewer and fewer products.

So the question is not will new sensor tech arrive the question is will it arrive in time for Canon to stay relevant. The competition is not standing still, working on organic sensors and such. So Canon really needs a game changer.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 30, 2013)

tcmatthews said:


> My main concern is that Canon will fail to launch a new sensor process in time and go the way of Kodak. Lets face it normal everyday point and shoots are being replaced by cell phones and with out the low end mass market consumer products the DSLR will get much more expensive as R&D is spread out over fewer and fewer products.
> 
> So the question is not will new sensor tech arrive the question is will it arrive in time for Canon to stay relevant. The competition is not standing still, working on organic sensors and such. So Canon really needs a game changer.



As soon as people start buying bare silicon CMOS sensors, Canon will have cause for concern. They sell cameras, not sensors. Reality trumps DxOMark measurements of sensor performance....and the reality is that Canon makes an excellent *system* of cameras, lenses, and accessories that are capable of producing excellent images. They're the market leader for a reason...


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## jrista (Jun 30, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



The vast majority of the sensor research linked through that site is unrelated to stills photography. The majority of the sensor patents and designs there are for the mobile device market, with the next highest portion dedicated to video sensors. There ARE some amazing innovations there (such as organic sensors, which replace photodiodes with organic light sensing mediums in a pseudo-backlit design), however most of those innovations are geared towards improving light gathering potential for incredibly TINY sensors...stuff that is a fraction of a fraction of an inch in size on the _long side._ Definitely the stuff that will drive high volume sales...most of it for 8" wafers...very little has anything to do with professional photography or large sensor design (it will be a long time before we see pixel sizes down to 2.5µm or smaller in the DSLR world, if we ever do.)

A lot of the readout logic innovations are geared towards 4k video readout...I read something not too long ago on that site that mentioned a Gfps...GigaFPS...a billion frames per second. That kind of research, while yes amazing, is incredibly niche. Video cameras capable of recording a billion frames a second is the kind of thing you find in scientific and military grade equipment...not the kind of thing your average pro or semi-pro photographer carts around. 

There ARE some innovations you can find by perusing that site that definitely have applications to stills photography. Not nearly as many as for other markets, but there are some. Is Canon competing in that market? Well, we don't know. That is the only FACT anyone can actually put forward at this point. Canon was top dog, with the best sensors, until four years ago. Then they went quiet. Over those four years, Canon focused on what they do...make superior CAMERAS. The 1D X is a phenomenal CAMERA. It has a great sensor, with some amazing high ISO performance. It's low ISO DR sucks. But hey...its a* Phenomenal --> CAMERA <--*!! The Nikon D4 is certainly no better, and in many respects...respects that matter to professional photographers, such as ergonomics, button placement, etc....it is worse than the 1D X. It's AF performance is definitely not on par with the 1D X. It too, is a great camera...no reason Nikon users would EVER have to complain about the results the D4 can get. But the 1D X has changed a lot of die hard Nikon user hearts. Hell, one of the people I thought went Nikon for life a while ago, Andy Rouse (world renown wildlife photographer) used a 1D X once and ditched his entire Nikon kit...went on his next major wildlife outing with two 1D X's...for the first time, never been used...he loved it that much.

No, Canon is not competing in the highly innovative mobile CMOS sensor market. No, Canon is not really competing in the highly competitive high end professional cinematography CMOS sensor market (not yet...they made an entry...again, the only FACT we have now at the moment is that Canon put their foot into the midrange cinematography market...only TIME will tell where they actually take it, and what kinds of innovations they produce in the future. 

Canon IS competing in the STILLS PHOTOGRAPHY market for LARGER form factor sensors, namely APS-C and FF. The FACT is, Canon is still the reigning king in that market. They have been for a long time, they will be for a long time (as evidenced by the fact that even the mighty D800 couldn't topple the woefully inadequate 5D III with its crappy sensor and terrible DR.) The only facts we have right now, are that Canon has announced the 70D as the first camera in a good long time that does NOT use the tried, true, and way overused 18mp APS-C sensor. The only facts we have right now are that Canon has promised some interesting new things with the 7D sensor. The only facts we have right now...is that we still don't know what those sensors are...how they were manufactured...or what they are capable of.

Your personal opinions about Canon, that they are literally incapable of competing in the sensor market "period", and that they would have to resort to leeching off of other manufacturers in order to actually fabricate something better than they have in the past...are just that: Personal OPINIONS. They aren't facts. It's just more of the Canon hate dribble you regularly love to spew all over this place. Your opinions don't really mean anything. Nothing means anything until someone like Chipworks rips an actual 70D sensor apart and tells everyone whats inside. Until that time, I'll happily continue rumormongering with my fellow Canon users...not because were bleeding heart die-hard fanboys who can't see past the end of our Canon lens. *No...just because it's fun to muse about the next potential camera we might buy for OUR existing kits.*

Good day, Mikael. Please, stop shitting on everyone.


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## ddashti (Jun 30, 2013)

Woah, haven't seen a CR3 in a while, this is good news!


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## Lawliet (Jul 1, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Reality trumps DxOMark measurements of sensor performance....and the reality is that Canon makes an excellent *system* of cameras, lenses, and accessories that are capable of producing excellent images.



Even DXOMark trumps DXOMarks sensor score, if I remember the "real life MP equivalent whatever"-score for lenses right. Not that the latter makes any more sense then the former, but...


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## Don Haines (Jul 1, 2013)

Yet another thread that has degenerated into a sensor debate....

I shoot with a camera, not a sensor. My camera is a balance of a lot of factors. Today was spent in a kayak and camera choice was dictated by the ability of the camera to fit into a tiny drybag. I brought along a SX-50.... Not the best camera in the world but small and no lens changes... I shot macro shots of dragonflies, wide angle landscapes, and telephoto shots of birds. My DSLR and Lglass spent the day in a bag on the living room floor.... Yes, the DSLR is a better camera and has better glass, but sometimes our requirements call for compromises.

The 70D will be a compromise camera.... Not as good as a 1DX, but better than a rebel. The enthusiastic sales of the 60D indicated that there is a market for it, so it will probably sell quite well. It will sell well because it is a good combination of features for the price and it has the Canon name on it. The vast bulk of buyers will not care about sensors or DXOmark ratings, they just want a good camera that works.


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## Pandypix (Jul 1, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Yet another thread that has degenerated into a sensor debate....
> 
> I shoot with a camera, not a sensor. My camera is a balance of a lot of factors. Today was spent in a kayak and camera choice was dictated by the ability of the camera to fit into a tiny drybag. I brought along a SX-50.... Not the best camera in the world but small and no lens changes... I shot macro shots of dragonflies, wide angle landscapes, and telephoto shots of birds. My DSLR and Lglass spent the day in a bag on the living room floor.... Yes, the DSLR is a better camera and has better glass, but sometimes our requirements call for compromises.
> 
> The 70D will be a compromise camera.... Not as good as a 1DX, but better than a rebel. The enthusiastic sales of the 60D indicated that there is a market for it, so it will probably sell quite well. It will sell well because it is a good combination of features for the price and it has the Canon name on it. The vast bulk of buyers will not care about sensors or DXOmark ratings, they just want a good camera that works.



I have to agree about using the camera that is suitable for the job I have a waterproof Olympus tough that when I go on my SUP (stand up paddle ) board I can have it on a lanyard around my neck. I get photos of birds sting rays and some lovely reflection shots. No way could I carry a DSLR even with waterproof casing I have to balance hold my paddle frame the shot and click hoping that I stay on my board. Photos are not always exactly what I want but they do hold a memory.


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## yogi (Jul 1, 2013)

B&H photo lists the 7d for $1299 after a $200 instant savings. I know it is premature to speculate about the real-life performance and tests and cost of the 70d, but i am wondering how many might consider the 7d over the 70d if there is not much difference in price. This really belongs on a future thread, but seeing the specs listed by Canon Rumors for the 70d, is anyone willing to make wild guesses? CR1


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## Lawliet (Jul 1, 2013)

yogi said:


> but i am wondering how many might consider the 7d over the 70d if there is not much difference in price.



Depends on the 70D's buffer capacity. Those 7fps might just help with reducing frame to frame variance for HDR/bracketing, but be rather useless for more action orientated applications.


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## rpt (Jul 1, 2013)

Pandypix said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Yet another thread that has degenerated into a sensor debate....
> ...


+1


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## Don Haines (Jul 1, 2013)

Pandypix said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Yet another thread that has degenerated into a sensor debate....
> ...


I have one of those....it fits into the pocket of the PFD (Personal Flotation Device, not a typo of PDF)... My first shots of it were underwater.... Take a deep breath, roll over in the kayak... Snap a picture, and roll up again.... Try that with a DSLR!


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## tnargs (Jul 1, 2013)

yogi said:


> B&H photo lists the 7d for $1299 after a $200 instant savings. ...i am wondering how many might consider the 7d over the 70d if there is not much difference in price.



I asked this question in reply #85. Love my 7D


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## unfocused (Jul 1, 2013)

yogi said:


> B&H photo lists the 7d for $1299 after a $200 instant savings. I know it is premature to speculate about the real-life performance and tests and cost of the 70d, but i am wondering how many might consider the 7d over the 70d if there is not much difference in price. This really belongs on a future thread, but seeing the specs listed by Canon Rumors for the 70d, is anyone willing to make wild guesses? CR1



I imagine it will pretty much kill off 7DI sales. But I also expect Canon to announce the 7DII within a few months. Canon knows the 7DI (or classic, if you prefer) is pretty much at the end of its life cycle. 

There are people still buying the 5DII instead of the 6D and I imagine there will be a few people out there who continue to buy the 7D because the other features are more important to them than a new sensor. But I expect that to be a small minority. Since the 60D is a better seller than the 7D (although the 7D is no slouch), I imagine Canon wants to maximize consumer sales before the Christmas holidays and the 70D will be a good way to do that. 

Also, from a competitive standpoint, Canon needs to compete with the D7100, but Nikon has been very slow in releasing its D300S replacement. The current D300S has always been a very weak competitor to the 7D even when both were new. I'm sure Canon was hoping to see what Nikon released before launching the 7DII, but Nikon has been so slow to announce a replacement, one wonders if they have decided to concede the high-end crop-sensor market to Canon.


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## jrista (Jul 1, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Pandypix said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



I'd like to see that shot! Got it online somewhere?


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jul 1, 2013)

Well let's summarize the DPR forum troll-style complaints for this new body:

1. "only" 20MP, the D7100 w/ 24MP beats it! 
2. "only" 1 card slot, and an SD slot at that, the D7100 has 2!
3. "only" 7FPS, it "won't replace my 7D"
4. only WiFi, no GPS onboard (despite D7100 not having both)
5. still appears to have an AA LPF on the sensor, the D7100 already doesn't have one!
6. no 100% VF coverage, the D7100 has it
7. "only" 19 AF pts. compared to 51 for the D7100, despite having more cross-type (19 vs. 15)
8. no f/8-capable AF center pt., unlike the D7100
9. prolly has no AFMA, dual-axis electronic level (maybe single-axis like the 6D/60D), crippled FW, etc.
10. and of course, for the band of 800% magnification pixel-peeping brothers, still has patterm banding and not as much DR as the Sony sensors, still no column-parallel ADC, yada-yada...


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## Don Haines (Jul 1, 2013)

jrista said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I have one of those....it fits into the pocket of the PFD (Personal Flotation Device, not a typo of PDF)... My first shots of it were underwater.... Take a deep breath, roll over in the kayak... Snap a picture, and roll up again.... Try that with a DSLR!
> ...


Nope.... It was a very poor shot... I had it aimed wrong and ended up with blurry pictures of yellow hull. I have since had many nice pics from it.... And now both Canon and Nikon have equivalent cameras, but at that point in time, Olympus was the only real choice for a tough and underwater p/s


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## jrista (Jul 1, 2013)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Well let's summarize the DPR forum troll-style complaints for this new body:
> 
> 1. "only" 20MP, the D7100 w/ 24MP beats it!
> 2. "only" 1 card slot, and an SD slot at that, the D7100 has 2!
> ...



LOL

I would have to say, the only *puzzling* feature to me is the inclusion of WiFi. I understand the value of WiFi for professional photographers who regularly tether their cameras and the like. I find GPS to be a much more useful consumer/prosumer feature than WiFi. Given the 70D's placement, that's the only feature that puzzles me. I am certainly not complaining about it...its an extra feature, can't complain about that. But it is a puzzling one...


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## Marsu42 (Jul 1, 2013)

jrista said:


> I find GPS to be a much more useful consumer/prosumer feature than WiFi.



In-camera wifi might be convenient, but has these disadvantages vs. a $50 dedicated gps logger:

* drains camera power, you might even forget to turn it off
* much(!) less precise / updates pos. much more seldom
* not always in the best signal position (you can put a small tagger in your breast pocket, ...)
* camera is larger than a logger: if you want to do travel logs you always have to carry your camera around
* no wayfinder/geocaching mode (you cannot set coordinates and let the logger guide you)
* no a-gps (camera needs longer to find the satellites).

The one disadvantage of the gps logger that you have to attach the track log to your pictures afterwards, but this is done with one click in Lightroom or other apps. For me, in-camera gps is a gadget I could really do without.


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## SenorClean (Jul 1, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> The one disadvantage of the gps logger that you have to attach the track log to your pictures afterwards, but this is done with one click in Lightroom or other apps. For me, in-camera gps is a gadget I could really do without.



Same for me - I have a Holux 1000c for logging if I could be bothered. One other disadvantage though - you can forget the logger (as I did on a round-the-world trip last year)! But then I just used my phone/tablet.

I think I may have a tough decision coming up between the 70D and the 6D... well and truely overdue to replace my 450D but I couldn't bring myself to buy something with the retro 18MPixel sensor and spend my cash on glass instead.


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## sarakoth (Jul 1, 2013)

SenorClean said:


> I think I may have a tough decision coming up between the 70D and the 6D... well and truely overdue to replace my 450D but I couldn't bring myself to buy something with the retro 18MPixel sensor and spend my cash on glass instead.



Same prob I have from a 500D... 6D AF has me scared, plus havign to buy some FF lenses, though the IQ is more than enough, but unless this is truly a new sensor, I dont think the high ISO performance will be enough to choose the 70D. So as usual it will be FF IQ versus Crop quality but with more options, better AF, etc (for my price range).


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## dgatwood (Jul 1, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> In-camera wifi might be convenient, but has these disadvantages vs. a $50 dedicated gps logger:



I assume you mean in-camera GPS. Now I'll give the counterpoint for each point.




Marsu42 said:


> * drains camera power, you might even forget to turn it off



Requires a separate power source. You might even forget to turn it on, charge it, or replace the batteries, then find out that you have no location data for any of your pictures at the end of the day. By contrast, most people carry more than one camera battery, and believe me, if you're taking pictures, you notice when it runs down. 




Marsu42 said:


> * much(!) less precise / updates pos. much more seldom



There's absolutely no reason why this should be the case. In fact, if anything, the reverse should be true. The camera should query the GPS for its actual position when you take a shot, and should only use a stale position if it doesn't have a valid signal. So using any sort of track log is much *less* precise than proper in-camera GPS. The only situations where that is not true is when you're indoors in a location where a large GPS unit with a large antenna happens to be able to get a signal where the camera's GPS can't. But even then, you're only as accurate as the interval between samples allows, which means it might be more precise, but it might also be less precise.




Marsu42 said:


> * not always in the best signal position (you can put a small tagger in your breast pocket, ...)



If anything, that's a worse location. Your body soaks up signals. The farther away from that bag of meat, the better.




Marsu42 said:


> * camera is larger than a logger: if you want to do travel logs you always have to carry your camera around



A GPS logger is one extra device. Chances are, you're going to have your camera with you anyway. And if you really just want a log of where you're going rather than where you took specific photos, chances are, your smartphone also has GPS and can do the logging without the need for carrying yet another device.




Marsu42 said:


> * no wayfinder/geocaching mode (you cannot set coordinates and let the logger guide you)



Typically, the GPS receivers people use with cameras are tiny devices whose UI consists of little more than a switch to change the sampling interval, a slot to stick a flash card into, and a power switch. They don't even have a screen, so they're no more useful than the in-body GPS. But at least the in-body GPS *could* be adapted to do those things with a firmware change. An external logger without a screen can't readily be modified to do that at all.

Besides, again, you probably have a smartphone, and it can probably do all those things. The purpose for GPS in a camera is to tag photos. Anything more than that and you're probably just duplicating functionality that the user already has in a more appropriate form factor (phone).




Marsu42 said:


> * no a-gps (camera needs longer to find the satellites).



aGPS is certainly an interesting technology, and certainly useful, but in practice, the reason it matters in smartphones doesn't apply to GPS devices that are solely used for cameras. It's important for smartphones because the satellites transmit data very slowly. For a device to get a GPS fix, it requires a critical piece of data, the ephemeris, which tells where the satellites are in the sky. It takes half a minute to stream that data via GPS satellites. aGPS can cut this so-called "warm fix" down to a couple of seconds by fetching that data over the cellular network.

In the context of a phone, the difference is critical because nobody wants to sit there waiting for half a minute waiting for their phone to show where they are. With a camera, however, you usually switch it on at the start of the day, and GPS remains active through the day (unlike a phone, where the receiver is active only when in use). Therefore, after that first thirty seconds, the only time the camera needs to re-acquire the ephemeris data is when GPS has been shut off for more than four hours since it last received GPS data... and possibly when you switch batteries, if it doesn't persist that data across battery swaps.

Thus, unless you're very rarely taking pictures, the warm fix time affects you once per day, and only if you don't power up the camera until just before you take your first shot of the day. After that initial warm fix, every acquisition should be a "hot" fix, which means that it should take about as long as it takes you to move your thumb from the power switch and pull the camera up to your eye, give or take a second.




Marsu42 said:


> The one disadvantage of the gps logger that you have to attach the track log to your pictures afterwards, but this is done with one click in Lightroom or other apps. For me, in-camera gps is a gadget I could really do without.



The bigger disadvantage is that it has no idea when you actually took a picture, so you have to choose a query interval that trades battery life for accuracy or vice versa. And it's another device to forget to charge, to forget to turn on, to forget to put new batteries in, etc. Also, you have to regularly synchronize the camera's clock to the GPS receiver or you're in for a world of hurt.

In short, the external devices are a significant hassle compared with in-body GPS, with no real benefits unless you are using a full-blown GPS receiver with a screen, you want to use it for some non-geotagging purpose, *and* you do not already own a smartphone or other handheld GPS device.


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## J.R. (Jul 1, 2013)

dgatwood said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > * much(!) less precise / updates pos. much more seldom
> ...



Actually, the inbuilt GPS on the 6D tags the GPS location based on the most recent reading taken. You can set the interval at which you want to take the GPS readings - the default setting is 15 seconds. 

It may be worth noting that the precision of the GPS is within a range of 30m and it doesn't provide any directional data.


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## boateggs (Jul 1, 2013)

sarakoth said:


> SenorClean said:
> 
> 
> > I think I may have a tough decision coming up between the 70D and the 6D... well and truely overdue to replace my 450D but I couldn't bring myself to buy something with the retro 18MPixel sensor and spend my cash on glass instead.
> ...



Same here, although the 6D AF is roughly what I am used to (only use center point now). Ill get both probably as I want one camera that does it all but I need 2 so SWMBO can use the other and dont want to spend the value of a kidney on a hobby for my girl and I. It is just a matter of what I want first: low light or action and speed


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## Paramike (Jul 1, 2013)

This looks pretty good to me! It would be nice to have an idea of when we could expect the 7DII as well, as I've been saving towards that rather than this.

Having said that, either one of them will blow my 400D away and I'm intrigued how my photography might change with all the gizmo's that these more modern cameras offer.

Here's looking forward to tomorrow!


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## aj1575 (Jul 1, 2013)

To me, this spec list looks very nice. Pixel count is ok, FPS are higher that what I expected, also the 19 all cross type AF, WiFi is an important feature, I can live without GPS (it is so easy to add GPS Data with a smartphone).
What I am missing in the speclist is the size of the viewfinder and the memorycard type (I think it will be one SD slot; which is okay)
And the biggest question to me is the sensor, is it only a blown up version of the 18MP we all know, or is it a completly new design (hopefully so). I do not expect that we will hear that tomorow, but DXO will soon show us how good the sensor is.


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## yogi (Jul 1, 2013)

tnargs said:


> yogi said:
> 
> 
> > B&H photo lists the 7d for $1299 after a $200 instant savings. ...i am wondering how many might consider the 7d over the 70d if there is not much difference in price.
> ...



Sorry. Didnt read the whole thread. Call me lazy. :-[


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## Marsu42 (Jul 1, 2013)

yogi said:


> Sorry. Didnt read the whole thread. Call me lazy. :-[



It is good practice only to read the last 1-2 posts, then reply, why else would we be able to generate record-long threads repeating the same arguments all over  ? ... especially important: Never try to use search, just ask away "Is IS useful on the 100L" or "Is the 16-35L better than the 17-40L?" :->


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## Marsu42 (Jul 1, 2013)

Concerning gps: I disagree, and here are my reasons, but as always I'm open to being convinced otherwise 

But first off: I've got nothing against built-in gps if it's thrown in there for free, but as it stands it's likely it's used as a marketing item and adds the same amount or more $$$ then an external logger.



dgatwood said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > * drains camera power, you might even forget to turn it off
> ...



I'm also a big fan of replaceable batteries, but my logger really logs 24h, so I never found that limiting. I also admit I rather like dedicated devices than the all in one stuff because specialized devices are usually better at what they do, and it minimizes risk because of damage/theft/powerloss ... of course that's really a personal preference.



dgatwood said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > * much(!) less precise / updates pos. much more seldom
> ...



In theory, yes. But do you think the 6d takes the signal on every shot? Hardly, like other embedded gps devices it's build for power saving rather than precision, in real life the logging frequency of a dedicated logger in the trunk can be so high you can get a precise log of a fast moving car.



dgatwood said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > * not always in the best signal position (you can put a small tagger in your breast pocket, ...)
> ...



I found it works nicely if you move around, it was just an example - and in any case it will be better than a camera stashed away in my bicycle bag under layers of protection.



dgatwood said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > * camera is larger than a logger: if you want to do travel logs you always have to carry your camera around
> ...



A smartphone is also a dedicated device, I don't have one  and my last non-smart phone's gps performance as very bad for example when exploring and crawling though former ussr barracks around Berlin. Plus a smartphone's gps also drains power from the non-replaceable battery as you argued above that's why I like to keep devices separate.



dgatwood said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > * no wayfinder/geocaching mode (you cannot set coordinates and let the logger guide you)
> ...



I already requested a gps geocaching mode for Magic Lantern, I hope they do it sometime. And my $50 gps logger *has* a screen, that's why I bought it, so I can enter coordinates and find my way.



dgatwood said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > * no a-gps (camera needs longer to find the satellites).
> ...



Nope, on better non-smartphone loggers with a-gps you can also upload this data from the pc for the next months or so thus severely shortening the fix time when it's cloudy.



dgatwood said:


> Thus, unless you're very rarely taking pictures, the warm fix time affects you once per day, and only if you don't power up the camera until just before you take your first shot of the day. After that initial warm fix, every acquisition should be a "hot" fix, which means that it should take about as long as it takes you to move your thumb from the power switch and pull the camera up to your eye, give or take a second.



Amen. I didn't try the 6d gps and I hope it works this way... but at least my last phone traded precision for power saving, but maybe today's gps chips are more advanced.



dgatwood said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > The one disadvantage of the gps logger that you have to attach the track log to your pictures afterwards, but this is done with one click in Lightroom or other apps. For me, in-camera gps is a gadget I could really do without.
> ...



My 24h gps logger is set for 5sec interval, I never move more than the gps' precision in 5sec, and if I would I could set it to 1sec with very little more power drain if the signal is strong. As I wrote above, I doubt the 6d gets an extra satellite fix right after every shutter release (or does it?). Even if so, the interpolation between 5sec logging intervals will be still more precise than the gps fuzz.



dgatwood said:


> Also, you have to regularly synchronize the camera's clock to the GPS receiver or you're in for a world of hurt.



Your camera clock should be so precise so that's not often necessary...


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## xylus (Jul 1, 2013)

All I wanted an APS-C sensor that can deliver decent result upto 6400 ISO and have a focusing system at least same as that 10yrs old 1D MkII.......within 1500$...am I asking too much?


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## schmidtfilme (Jul 1, 2013)

Before I make any decision I will wait for the 7D M2. I am not in a hurry. I would have loved GPS and wonder why this is missing. Well, still just a rumor....


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## pato (Jul 1, 2013)

Maybe it got built-in flash as a trade to the GPS?  I really wonder how good the ISO performance will be, that is what currently limits me the most on my 550D.


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## dgatwood (Jul 1, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Concerning gps: I disagree, and here are my reasons, but as always I'm open to being convinced otherwise
> 
> But first off: I've got nothing against built-in gps if it's thrown in there for free, but as it stands it's likely it's used as a marketing item and adds the same amount or more $$$ then an external logger.



If it does, it's because they're choosing to sell it that way. The actual cost is orders of magnitude less, because 95% of the cost of an external logger comes for free when put in-body—no battery, no case, no additional CPU. All you have is a GPS chip that costs maybe a buck or two, an antenna that costs maybe a buck or two, and possibly a slightly larger logic board to hold the extra chip, for a grand total cost of maybe $3–5.





Marsu42 said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



From a power perspective, I'd expect a track log to be worse on the average because the GPS has to be brought back up to an active state regularly even when you aren't shooting photos. The cost to ask for another reading is basically zero while the chip is up and running. But that probably depends on the workload.

In an ideal world, a device like this would switch into track log mode if you shoot a picture and it has no signal, and should then apply the first position to any photos taken while the signal was unavailable. This would still require less power than continuous track logging, but would eliminate the most obvious issue with taking a measurement when you click the shutter.




Marsu42 said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



With the caveat that if they have to make an emergency position correction on a satellite to avoid hitting a piece of space junk, your computed location could be off by hundreds of miles. There's a reason they only guarantee the ephemeris to be accurate for 4 hours. 




Marsu42 said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > Thus, unless you're very rarely taking pictures, the warm fix time affects you once per day, and only if you don't power up the camera until just before you take your first shot of the day. After that initial warm fix, every acquisition should be a "hot" fix, which means that it should take about as long as it takes you to move your thumb from the power switch and pull the camera up to your eye, give or take a second.
> ...



Cell phones have much smaller batteries than your camera. The iPhone 5, for example, has a battery capacity that's less than a third of a 6D's battery, and that's with not just Wi-Fi and GPS, but also a cellular radio. 




Marsu42 said:


> Your camera clock should be so precise so that's not often necessary...



Digital clocks drift, on average, by something like five seconds per day. In two weeks' shooting, that's an error of more than a minute. Maybe the clock in recent Canon cameras is more precise than that, but I wouldn't hold my breath.


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## Apop (Jul 1, 2013)

Buffer depth is really important for me...., I hope canon isn't doing like nikon did with the d7100, 6 raw files buffer dept :/


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## luciolepri (Jul 1, 2013)

I'm afraid 20.2 MP means moiré issues...


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## skitron (Jul 1, 2013)

Any word on AFMA? It's a non-starter for me without it.


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## Act444 (Jul 1, 2013)

skitron said:


> Any word on AFMA? It's a non-starter for me without it.




I'm guessing we'll know in a few hours?


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## seasamshoot (Jul 2, 2013)

Anyone else feel like Stephen Colbert when a new Apple Product launches. All I am thinking about is "GIVE IT TO ME!! I WANT!"


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## luciolepri (Jul 2, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> luciolepri said:
> 
> 
> > I'm afraid 20.2 MP means moiré issues...
> ...



I was talking about video, I should have mentioned it...
It looks like the 20.2 mp sensor doesn't handle line skipping very well.


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## whothafunk (Jul 2, 2013)

Apop said:


> Buffer depth is really important for me...., I hope canon isn't doing like nikon did with the d7100, 6 raw files buffer dept :/


16 RAW and 65 JPEG for 70D, if I remember correctly.


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## jdramirez (Jul 2, 2013)

Does the 70D have AFMA? I didn't see any anywhere, so I'm guessing no, but maybe.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 2, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> Does the 70D have AFMA? I didn't see any anywhere, so I'm guessing no, but maybe.



Yes it does.


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## jdramirez (Jul 2, 2013)

then, outside of build quality and a few faster shots per second, what advantage does the 7d mki have over the 70d?


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## skfla (Jul 3, 2013)

I've been reading this thread (or maybe it was 1 of the many other 70D threads?) since last night & only a few people have mentioned my concern. So I guess I'm overly concerned about a minor issue. BUT, of course, I'll bring it up anyway. 

Is anyone concerned about the focusing sensitivity only going down to -.5ev? Is this going to be a problem in medium/low or low light situations w/ anything other than a fast prime? Or even w/ a fast prime? I mean we've got this great new Dual Pixel focusing system so I can't imagine Canon would do this if it really is going to prove problematic, right? I mean they just went through the marketing disaster with the EOS M, would they really do this to something w/ the sales/profit potential of the 70D??

I know the standard answers are: No, no, not a problem-you're just obessing about some minor little thing. Or perhaps the always safe (but much less fun): we'll just have to wait & see. 

I'm curious because I use a 7D as my back up. I've always felt it did just fine w/ low light focusing-until I borrowed (& then rented) a 6D. The 6D, w/ its infamous single center cross focus point, really did amaze when I used it in low light. After that, I want something that has either the -3ev capability or at least something close to it. 

I have to admit that I was thinking about switching out my back up for something newer (touchscreen, silent mode, a new sensor, deeper bracketing, & I admit to being curious about using wireless remote control once the apps start coming out). The 70D is still a consideration once the initial pricing drops a little given that I can cover most or all of the cost with the sale of my beloved 7D. But again, having got a taste of low light focusing with the 6D & a fast prime, IDK. I may just have to keep waiting & walking around with my dated (but still satisfying) equipment-my 5D2 & 7D. With a nice but also aging T2i (my loaner, fun/crazy camera) hoovering around in the background...

If anyone still monitoring this thread has an opinion, please let me know what you think. Tks


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## thelebaron (Jul 3, 2013)

well the 70d's -.5ev is the same as the 7d's. while i do remember having few stuggles with it in low light, it was usually when the resulting picture would be supremely noisy


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> then, outside of build quality and a few faster shots per second, what advantage does the 7d mki have over the 70d?



None...until its specs are known. But probably better standard phase AF, better sealing to go with the better build, perhaps better metering, definitely more C# modes, more MP, much better high ISO, time will tell...


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## bseitz234 (Jul 3, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > then, outside of build quality and a few faster shots per second, what advantage does the 7d mki have over the 70d?
> ...



Ooh! Ooh! I get to correct Neuro!!

That said mki, not mkii ;-) We know the specs on the mki.

I expect your 1dx caused you to forget about your poor 2nd body... ;-)


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...



Well, technically there's no such thing as a MkI anything... 

The 7D is pretty much a lame duck at this point. Unless you need that feature set between now and September...


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## skfla (Jul 3, 2013)

thelebaron said:


> well the 70d's -.5ev is the same as the 7d's. while i do remember having few stuggles with it in low light, it was usually when the resulting picture would be supremely noisy



thelebaron, that's pretty much how I felt-a little struggling in low light but nothing to take notice of, etc. Until I tried low light AF on the 6D. I'm curious if you've tried the 6D & if so, how you found it (low light performance) in comparison to the 7D? I know its not totally apples to apples (FF to Crop, differing overall af systems, etc.,etc) but still, I do wonder about Canon staying with the -.5ev range on this camera. Maybe picking up the AF of the 7D they had to stay with the same ev rating?


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## jdramirez (Jul 3, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...



I read that twice... and I was thinking... what 20 is still more than 18... uhhh... but then it all clicked in.


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## bleephotography (Jul 3, 2013)

skfla said:


> thelebaron said:
> 
> 
> > well the 70d's -.5ev is the same as the 7d's. while i do remember having few stuggles with it in low light, it was usually when the resulting picture would be supremely noisy
> ...



I actually have the 6D now and I had the 7D for about a year prior. I find that the center focus point on the 6D can pick up almost anything in a dimly lit room, whereas the 7D will focus hunt quite a bit unless there is at least moderate contrast. On the other hand, I find that the 7D's outer focus points are noticeably faster than those of the 6D's, but that's to be expected considering the 7D's are all cross-type. For a DSLR of this caliber, I think -.5EV will be more than adequate for most scenarios, although an improvement over its _predecessor(s)_ would have been nice.


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## thelebaron (Jul 3, 2013)

I agree with bleephotography, but my experience is a 5d3(which replaced my 7d). Its great being able to focus alot faster and more accurately, but when Ive forced a photo in those types of situations, things could be noisy or dark or both. It hasn't really made a large impact to me as an enthusiast, but I could see it being more of a big deal for wedding or event photography.


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