# Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specification List [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

```
<p>The expected announcement of the Canon EOS 5D Mark IV is about 4 months away and information coming has been pretty minimal, however we have received our first specification list or the camera. As with a lot of [CR1] stuff, please take it with a grain of salt, as I don’t know the person that has sent it in.</p>
<p>Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Rumored Specifications</p>
<ul>
<li>24.2MP Sensor</li>
<li>61 AF Points (41 crosstype)</li>
<li>DIGIC 7+ (Single)</li>
<li>7fps</li>
<li>ISO 100-51,200 (expandable options)</li>
<li>3.2″ touchscreen LCD</li>
<li>CFast/SD card slots</li>
<li>Wifi built-in</li>
<li>GPS built-in</li>
<li>BG-E20 battery grip</li>
<li>LP-E20 battery</li>
<li>Slight weight reduction</li>
</ul>
<p>As we hear more, we’ll be sure to pass on the information that we can.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## slclick (Apr 26, 2016)

If correct, time to buy new cards and batteries (for some), still, only a CR1


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 26, 2016)

If the specification is accurate Im surprised about the battery given that the LP-E6 was uprated & upgraded for the 5DS / r and to the LP-E6N. This battery is common to the 5D series at least from the MKII and to the 7D & 7D MKII, 6D, 60D, 70D and 80D and given the cost of additional batteries not an insignificant additional cost not to mention needing to carry different battery types. 

If the camera is slimmed down then maybe you can see the reason why otherwise its a strange move.


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## slclick (Apr 26, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> If the specification is accurate Im surprised about the battery given that the LP-E6 was uprated & upgraded for the 5DS / r and to the LP-E6N. This battery is common to the 5D series at least from the MKII and to the 7D & 7D MKII, 6D, 60D, 70D and 80D and given the cost of additional batteries not an insignificant additional cost not to mention needing to carry different battery types.
> 
> If the camera is slimmed down then maybe you can see the reason why otherwise its a strange move.



CFast cards will slim down your budget faster than batteries


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## sleepnever (Apr 26, 2016)

I really hope 24MP is not the final number. I was totally hoping for 28MP.


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## afonsoclj (Apr 26, 2016)

I was hoping these specs on the 6D Mark II :'(


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## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

slclick said:


> If correct, time to buy new cards and batteries (for some), still, only a CR1



Only a CR1, but given a specific naming has been indicated for both the BG and battery I tend to believe it's a pretty reliable rumor. The other specs appear consistent.

I had hypothesized a slight decrease in price at launch similarly to the 1DX > 1DX II, now I'm hesitant... touchscreen, wi-fi, cfast which means probably 4k...

I predict... 20 pages of comments in 48h, ha ha! ;D


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## unfocused (Apr 26, 2016)

This list is plausible, but questionable. 

The new battery seems doubtful. Sure, sooner or later every battery is replaced, but I believe Canon would replace the LE-E6 series only as a last resort. And I note that the new battery is a variation on the model number for the grip. Since grip model numbers vary by camera, that seems unusual and sends up a red flag about the legitimacy of this rumor.

I'm also doubting the CFast/SD slot rumor. CFast/CF is much more plausible. But, I think the same CF/SD combination is the most likely.

The rumor contains a lot of numbers that most of us could have guessed and has no detail about that those numbers mean (particularly the 61-pt autofocus) Just how closely the autofocus mirrors the 1D X II will be a key specification and this just throws out a number with no explanation.

As I said, overall, its generally plausible, but nothing that most people on Canon Rumors couldn't have come up with themselves with no special access to inside information.


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## Antono Refa (Apr 26, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>The expected announcement of the Canon EOS 5D Mark IV is about 4 months away and information coming has been pretty minimal, however we have received our first specification list or the camera. As with a lot of [CR1] stuff, please take it with a grain of salt, as I don’t know the person that has sent it in.</p>
> <p>Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Rumored Specifications</p>
> 
> * 24.2MP Sensor



Excellent!



Canon Rumors said:


> * CFast/SD card slots



I'll take the CF cards I have over the CFast I don't any day, and 4K be damned.



Canon Rumors said:


> * Wifi built-in
> * GPS built-in



Nice!



Canon Rumors said:


> * LP-E20 battery



I'll take the LP-E6 I have over etc.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 26, 2016)

I am deed taking these with a grain of salt. I do not believe them. High ISO of 51200?? The 4 year old 5D MK III goes to 102,800.

These were made up by picking from CR posts and do not make any sense.

Canon is not going to require zillions of 5D MK III owners to throw out their CF cards. Their sales would reduced by at least one buyer, not only would I lose my big investment in CF cards, but would have to purchase cfast. I will not use SD cards, there are too many issues with them.


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## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

afonsoclj said:


> I was hoping these specs on the 6D Mark II :'(



Don't worry, when it comes many of these specs will translate into it except AF points, fps and mag alloy body for sure. And, also for sure, I won't be a 5D IV early adopter, so I'll have enough time to see the 6D II release before deciding where to steer my money.


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## tron (Apr 26, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I am deed taking these with a grain of salt. I do not believe them. High ISO of 51200?? The 4 year old 5D MK III goes to 102,800.
> ...


Maybe the meaning was 100-51200 (*with* expandable options)


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## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I am deed taking these with a grain of salt. I do not believe them. High ISO of 51200?? The 4 year old 5D MK III goes to 102,800.



Yes, but that was H2. Native max ISO was 25,600. So possibly H2 in the 5D IV is higher than 102,800.


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## jebrady03 (Apr 26, 2016)

I laugh when people talk about an investment in memory cards. Talk about a depreciating asset! Wow! They depreciate MUCH faster than cars. Seriously... You consider a handful of practically disposable memory cards from 3 years ago an investment? Pay attention. Geez. 

As for this rumor or any others that show up within the next 2 months, if we are to believe that the actual announcement is 4 months away, they are complete fabrications. They may be well designed, but they're fabrications. People send them in because they're trolling CR Guy and the users of this site. They enjoy watching people get worked up. 

I could easily craft a believable rumor fairly easily for the 5D Mark IV. It would take about 10 minutes. And if posted by CR Guy, it would lead to PAGES of responses which included a combination of applause, personal wish lists that varied from my well-crafted rumor, and proclamations of doom.

And for anyone wishing to create their own rumor, a sure-fire way to get it posted is to put it in a bullet point format just like the press releases. And for extra points, follow the same order that the last camera had in its bullet-point format.


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## justsomedude (Apr 26, 2016)




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## justsomedude (Apr 26, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I am deed taking these with a grain of salt. I do not believe them. High ISO of 51200?? The 4 year old 5D MK III goes to 102,800.



It also says, "expandable options." 

5D3 had an ISO 25,6000 standard limit. The 102,800 was expanded.


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## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon is not going to require zillions of 5D MK III owners to throw out their CF cards. Their sales would reduced by at least one buyer, not only would I lose my big investment in CF cards, but would have to purchase cfast. I will not use SD cards, there are too many issues with them.


Since I don't care 4k, this is my biggest concern, too. I just hope that by the time I'll buy one, or the 6D II, the price of CFast cards has settled considerably. As concerns SD, I use it on my 7D II for jpegs only, raws in the CF. If one fails, nothing is completely lost.


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## GuyF (Apr 26, 2016)

If true, I doubt this will sway potential 1DX2 owners to get this instead.


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## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

justsomedude said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I am deed taking these with a grain of salt. I do not believe them. High ISO of 51200?? The 4 year old 5D MK III goes to 102,800.
> ...



My first thougt was the same as Mt Spokane, then I realized "expandable options" is probably simply missing a "+".


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## H. Jones (Apr 26, 2016)

GuyF said:


> If true, I doubt this will sway potential 1DX2 owners to get this instead.



As someone buying a 1DX2, I'm likely going to put the 5D4 up next on my list. Definitely not a primary camera for me, but it looks like it'll be a worthy secondary camera. That said, I'm probably in the minority of people that would buy both.


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## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

unfocused said:


> The new battery seems doubtful. Sure, sooner or later every battery is replaced, but I believe Canon would replace the LE-E6 series only as a last resort. And I note that the new battery is a variation on the model number for the grip. Since grip model numbers vary by camera, that seems unusual and sends up a red flag about the legitimacy of this rumor.



On the other hand, the LP-E6 was introduced along with the BG-E6 with the 5D II. So, either this rumor is a well thought out fake, or is trustworthy because of this precision.


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## drs (Apr 26, 2016)

New Batteries? Not with me. 

What an expensive side effect that would be, to buy this model.

Weird move -- Canon!


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## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

H. Jones said:


> GuyF said:
> 
> 
> > If true, I doubt this will sway potential 1DX2 owners to get this instead.
> ...



The 5D IV could likely be the next camera of many original 1DX owners who are still sufficiently satisfied by their camera and not willing to spend 6 grands on a new one, still intrigued by higher res, touchscreen, GPS, WiFi etc. at an *affordable* price. And, please, note in which context I'm using the term "affordable" before crucifying me


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## Luds34 (Apr 26, 2016)

afonsoclj said:


> I was hoping these specs on the 6D Mark II :'(



Haha, same here.

Spec-wise this looks pretty evolutionary on the 5D front. Of course how much they improve the sensor could possibly be one of the key draws in a 5D4 over a 5D3.


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## RickWagoner (Apr 26, 2016)

The mp and focus points seem wrong to me. Marketing wise it would be suicide to have the same mp as the crop bodies even at this high level. The 61 points is a bit low for such a grade body also the crop 80D and 7D2 are too near that number. 


Protip, it may have 1.6 crop mode..red dot light viewfinder like 1dx2..also greater or same f8 focus points along with dpaf...anti flicker also


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## Maximilian (Apr 26, 2016)

Quite reasonable specs. 
Good to see that this body will stay in a decent MP range and get no pixel overkill. 
A really nice body to get and I surely would go for it if I still had a Mark II body.

But until yet nothing tempting for me to change from Mark III to Mark IV.


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## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

RickWagoner said:


> The mp and focus points seem wrong to me. Marketing wise it would be suicide to have the same mp as the crop bodies even at this high level. The *61 points is a bit low for such a grade body* also the crop 80D and 7D2 are too near that number.
> 
> 
> Protip, it will have 1.6 crop mode..red dot light viewfinder like 1dx2..also greater or same f8 focus points along with dpaf



Really? And what about the 61 points of the 1DX II... oh, but wait, I forgot that Canon are *******.


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## doog (Apr 26, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I will not use SD cards, there are too many issues with them.



I remain confused/baffled by the basic (architectural) characteristics of CF vs. SD. I think I understand that CF is capped by standards agreement. Any illumination would help to quell (but not fully eliminate) certain specific ignorant comments from me, so thanks in advance.


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## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

jebrady03 said:


> ...
> 
> As for this rumor or any others that show up within the next 2 months, if we are to believe that the actual announcement is 4 months away, they are complete fabrications. They may be well designed, but they're fabrications. People send them in because they're trolling CR Guy and the users of this site. They enjoy watching people get worked up.
> 
> I could easily craft a believable rumor fairly easily for the 5D Mark IV. It would take about 10 minutes. And if posted by CR Guy, it would lead to PAGES of responses which included a combination of applause, personal wish lists that varied from my well-crafted rumor, and proclamations of doom.



I think (nearly) all of us are aware of this. Nevertheless, it's fun speculating, it's more or less the same as we do when chatting with photographer friends about what to expect next, what's probable or possible and what we wish. All rumor sites live on this. I've learned a lot of things on CR, being educated by other smarter-than-me members of this forum. I see nothing wrong in all this, even many of the other photography websites have sections dedicated to rumors. And, occasionally, something reliable is reported. Ironically, the most accurate rumors have been those which seemed the least reliable. One for all: the 2x "niche" zoom which translated into the 8-15 fisheye.


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## Maiaibing (Apr 26, 2016)

Luds34 said:


> afonsoclj said:
> 
> 
> > I was hoping these specs on the 6D Mark II :'(
> ...



Looks pretty DOA to me. Agree on the 6DII-ish profile. Sensor would have to provide very, very significant improvement over previous models to even consider.

Marginally faster fps - but still not fast fps
Relatively few MPIX
Expensive extras (battery, cf-fast)
AF better - but looks unlikely to anything but marginally better than other newer FF models

Looks like a second 5DSR or maybe a "cheaper" 5DS would make much more sense - unless Canon plans to give these away @~2.400$.


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## slclick (Apr 26, 2016)

The 5D line has always been an all rounder. Not the fastest or greatest at any one thing but more than capable at many. Incremental improvements have been Canon's SOP for quite some time, sure you want more but realistically you will only get so much. Many want the new model in the 5D line to be a mini 1D, many want the new 6D to be a 5D style body. 

Both the 6D2 and 5D4 will be better than their former selves. Not mind blowingly better but incrementally. A tad better in low light, a bit better noise in higher iso, a slightly faster fps, somewhat brighter VF, a couple more cross type AF points. So on and so forth. 

Sucks that realistic expectations don't make a good rumor mill. I get that. But they work and work well. If you don't think so you are either a video genius or need to spend some time with a Holga 120N.


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## ahsanford (Apr 26, 2016)

Not buying this rumor, not completely at least.

The 5D3 had a highly similar AF setup to the 1DX, and I expect something similar to occur w.r.t. the 1DX II AF setup. There's value for Canon in doing this, perhaps as a 2nd rig for an event shooter.

Also, 24 MP X 7 fps is leaving a s--- ton of meat on the bone processing-wise. If we can move 50 MP x 5 fps, we could easily move 24 MP x 8-10 fps with a second chip. On that topic, I have yet to hear a compelling reason why a similarly-priced 5DS and much much cheaper 7D2 warrant two chips and the 5D4 still only gets one chip. Put two chips in there, nerf the fps if you are truly worried about shutter/mirror durability or think a 10 fps rig is a threat to 1DX II sales, but 24 MP x 9 fps seems about right.

- A


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## ahsanford (Apr 26, 2016)

Also -- still no chatter on the ability to switch to manual focusing screens?

I'd love to give those Sigma Art primes another go. 

- A


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## j-nord (Apr 26, 2016)

Not impressed, don't believe it, no show stopping/future proofing attribute listed.


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## slclick (Apr 26, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Also -- still no chatter on the ability to switch to manual focusing screens?
> 
> I'd love to give those Sigma Art primes another go.
> 
> - A



That's what I'm hoping the 6D series retains in future models.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 26, 2016)

pierlux said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > The mp and focus points seem wrong to me. Marketing wise it would be suicide to have the same mp as the crop bodies even at this high level. The *61 points is a bit low for such a grade body* also the crop 80D and 7D2 are too near that number.
> ...



Yeah, and you know, the 1D X has 18 MP just like so many Canon crop bodies when it was launched, total suicide. 

Protip - Rick pulls his information from 'sources' that I think live in an orifice where the sun don't shine, if you know what I mean...


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## et31 (Apr 26, 2016)

Lack-luster improvements for $3,800. Native ISO doubling was to be expected.
But, a 61-point array, where 41 points are cross-type AF sensors is the same as the Mark III. Bleugh. 
I was hoping for all cross-type AF points like the 7D Mark II! ....and more f/2.8 sensitive points for a change to take advantage of that native ISO range. 

Let's hope the "confirmed list" will be a bit better than this.


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## ahsanford (Apr 26, 2016)

slclick said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Also -- still no chatter on the ability to switch to manual focusing screens?
> ...



And besides the obvious 'horsepower' metrics (fps, sensor MP, comprehensiveness/points/teleconverterability of the AF system, etc.), Canon would be wise to yank manual screens from the 6D line and give them back to the 5D line. I see this nicely queued up triumvirate of planes landing at the airport (1DX2, 5D4, 6D2) as a great opportunity for Canon to re-establish the good / better / best value proposition of the three product lines.

Today, the 6D1 is no match for the 5D3 on aggregate, but at a feature level it has some nice things (-3 EV center point, manual screens, etc.) that left some 5D3 folks wondering why they ponied up so much to be left out of those features. 

- A


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## Chaitanya (Apr 26, 2016)

Waiting for release day, hopefully Canon wont castrate this camera due to other very good video capable cameras in the same price range. But since this is Canon dont expect they will release anything exceptional.


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## kaihp (Apr 26, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Also, 24 MP X 7 fps is leaving a s--- ton of meat on the bone processing-wise. If we can move 50 MP x 5 fps, we could easily move 24 MP x 8-10 fps with a second chip.



Historically, the 5D's (not to confuse with the 5Ds ) have only used a single DIGIC processor (DIGIC II, DIGIC 4, DIGIC 5+) vs 2 for the 5Ds/R and 7D series.

With 24.1Mpix x 7fps it would push ~169Mpix/sec, vs ~162Mpix/sec per DIGIC6+ for the 1Dx Mk II. This is very similar to the 1Dx/5D3 ratio.

While I don't like the idea of a new battery, I could see this being driven from a need for delivering higher peak current in order to drive the CFast card.

One thing that I'd like to see is a Type-C USB 3 connector instead of the bulky Super-Speed USB connector used on 5Ds. But Canon is Canon, so that won't happen the next 4 years or so.
The ability to charge the battery through USB (as an 'emergency') would be nice too.


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## KarstenReis (Apr 26, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Not buying this rumor, not completely at least.
> 
> The 5D3 had a highly similar AF setup to the 1DX, and I expect something similar to occur w.r.t. the 1DX II AF setup. There's value for Canon in doing this, perhaps as a 2nd rig for an event shooter.
> 
> ...



Agree on the fps. Seems a little on the low side 5D2 -> 5D3 was 3.9 -> 6.0 fps. I was thinking 8 would be a good spot. Keeps 7D2 ahead in that department by 2 fps and 1DX2 by 6.


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## unfocused (Apr 26, 2016)

slclick said:


> ...sure you want more but realistically you will only get so much. Many want the new model in the 5D line to be a mini 1D, many want the new 6D to be a 5D style body.
> 
> Both the 6D2 and 5D4 will be better than their former selves. Not mind blowingly better but incrementally...
> 
> Sucks that realistic expectations don't make a good rumor mill. I get that. But they work and work well.



If you keep talking sense like that, you are going to get banned from CR.

Seriously, I don't know what is so hard to figure out. The 5D IV will be better than the 5D III and not as good as the 1D X II. There isn't a lot of room to maneuver there, so it doesn't take rocket science to come up with a pretty good idea of where things will fall.


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## ahsanford (Apr 26, 2016)

kaihp said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Also, 24 MP X 7 fps is leaving a s--- ton of meat on the bone processing-wise. If we can move 50 MP x 5 fps, we could easily move 24 MP x 8-10 fps with a second chip.
> ...



Well aware, and that's why I am lobbying for a 2nd chip. It's less about being 'half the throughput of a 1DX II' -- it's more about having _half the throughput of a 5DS or 7D2_ that I have a problem with.

Why does the high res rig and a wildlife crop rig (two completely different user groups) get a 2nd chip and the 5D line -- a staple professional brand -- have to make due with one hand behind it's back? Forget 'Canon historically does this' and please, someone, convey to me why Canon does this for any reason other than nerfing the 5D line from approaching the 1D line's attractiveness?

I'm not asking this mockingly or with any certainty of my position -- I actually want to understand. Would two chips + 24 MP X 9 fps drive a far far costlier mirror/shutter setup? Did they leave the 2nd chip out to put in some necessary video encoding hardware or something?

So please set me straight. It just seems odd that if Canon can push 50 x 5 through a 5DS with two chips in what is effectively a 5D3-sized housing, a 5D4 should be able to net that same throughput with different 'mix' to MP x FPS.

- A


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## StudentOfLight (Apr 26, 2016)

If you were to assume the same data rate, would the number of processors affect power consumption?


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## sebasan (Apr 26, 2016)

For 7fps, i will desire a 30mp+ sensor. The only way that I could change my 5DIII for this new one is that the new sensor will be really better.


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## slclick (Apr 26, 2016)

unfocused said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > ...sure you want more but realistically you will only get so much. Many want the new model in the 5D line to be a mini 1D, many want the new 6D to be a 5D style body.
> ...



yep but still people think Canon has a design your own body for less program


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## Sharlin (Apr 26, 2016)

My eurocents:



Canon Rumors said:


> 24.2MP Sensor


My guess till now has been either 24 or 28MP, but if it's 24MP then 7fps sounds low.



> DIGIC 7+ (Single)


7+? Sounds very dubious. No DSLR even has a DIGIC 7 yet, and a hypothetical 7+ would probably have way more processing power than just 24MP*7fps.



> 7fps


As mentioned above, seems low if the sensor is 24MP, the same data rate as the 80D but the processor is most probably faster than the 80D's DIGIC 6. Plausible if the sensor turns out to be 28MP instead.



> ISO 100-51,200 (expandable options)


Plausible, even probable (if 51k is max native) - same as the 1DX2 and +1 stop compared to the 5D3.


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## M_S (Apr 26, 2016)

sleepnever said:


> I really hope 24MP is not the final number. I was totally hoping for 28MP.



+1 . 
I even am hoping for a 32-33MP sensor, as I see the Mark IV as a strong contender to the D810 from Nikon. With this MP count I am double and triple thinking about upgrading from my Mark III. Since it would mean to buy new cards and possibly new batteries as well, one can look at other options too.


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## kaihp (Apr 26, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Why does the high res rig and a wildlife crop rig (two completely different user groups) get a 2nd chip and the 5D line -- a staple professional brand -- have to make due with one hand behind it's back? Forget 'Canon historically does this' and please, someone, convey to me why Canon does this for any reason other than nerfing the 5D line from approaching the 1D line's attractiveness?



To paraphrase a discussion I had on reddit about Honda not going back from their terrible 2015 model to the super-dominant 2014 model of their RC213V MotoGP racebike the other day:
"Because Canon" 

In other words: your guess is as good as mine. We just know they're set in their ways.



Sharlin said:


> > DIGIC 7+ (Single)
> 
> 
> 7+? Sounds very dubious. No DSLR even has a DIGIC 7 yet, and a hypothetical 7+ would probably have way more processing power than just 24MP*7fps.


Sounds like a typo. DIGIC 6+ sounds much more likely.


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## ahsanford (Apr 26, 2016)

slclick said:


> yep but still people think Canon has a design your own body for less program



I'm entirely down with another $3500 FF rig -- I have no delusions of a $2k 6D2 that performs at a 5D level. But I'm asking what the 'killer apps' are. As best I can tell, the 5D4 will offer over a current 5D3:


A better sensor in general (DR, noise in high ISO, etc.)
+1-2 fps
+2 MP
An improved AF system (tons on speculation right now)
DPAF
4K (tons of will-they vs. won't-they speculation)
Anti-flicker mode
Wifi (rumored)
Touchscreen (rumored)
Illuminated buttons, perhaps?

Is _that_ worth a $3500 refresh? This varies for each of us, of course, but since I don't shoot video and they aren't aggressively increasing the MP count, that sensor had better deliver or I'll wait 4.5 _more_ years for a 5D5.

- A


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## ahsanford (Apr 26, 2016)

And yes, by omission on my list above, I may have subtly been alluding to someday be able to spot meter at any AF point -- that would certainly help my needle move from 'No Sale' to 'Oooh. Maybe. Damn you, Canon'. :

- A


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## MayaTlab (Apr 26, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > yep but still people think Canon has a design your own body for less program
> ...



There will also be a much improved metering sensor. 

7 fps at 24mp is a little low. The main issue with this spec list is that, other than DPAF (which looks amazing) it's basically what the D760 will offer, but at a €2000 price point and maybe with a 28mp sensor even. And a few QA issues to boot, for the sake of tradition .


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## makistza (Apr 26, 2016)

If that specs is real, Sony will probably gets much much wealthy...
As for me, to upgrade from 5diii must AT LEAST the new camera has
Nikon 810 specs and higher.


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## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > yep but still people think Canon has a design your own body for less program
> ...



Add:

GPS
An unspecified number of f/8 AF points (probably)
Less weight (rumored)
AF area selector (probably)
The return of illuminated AF points (rumored)

To answer your question, and relatively to myself if I had a 5D III, probably no, although selling the Mark III would make the refresh much less costly than $3500. In addition, being not compelled to buy it at release time, the cost would further slim down.

But to me, a 5D II owner, these specs are pure gold!  That said, I'm no longer going to be an early adopter. Already did with both the 5D II and 7D II, not worth it, I'm not a pro. It took only a few months for the price to considerably drop. This time I'll wait, I promise!


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 26, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Is _that_ worth a $3500 refresh? This varies for each of us, of course, but since I don't shoot video and they aren't aggressively increasing the MP count, that sensor had better deliver or I'll wait 4.5 _more_ years for a 5D5.



The 5DII offered more MP (and video before it was popular), was that a worthwhile refresh? The 5DIII offered effectively the same MP and sensor IQ, and better everything else, was that a worthwhile refresh?

It seems we're in the zone of diminishing returns - longer cycles, less change. Also, consider the overall strategy regarding target audience: who is a more likely buyer of a 5DIV – a 5DIII owner, or someone with a 5DII, 6D or APS-C body? Canon has data collected from prior releases to inform on that, and I'm sure it guides their feature choices across the lines.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 26, 2016)

makistza said:


> If that specs is real, Sony will probably gets much much wealthy...



I love how threads like this bring the trolls crawling from their caves. :

Given that the plant which produces sensors for their MILCs is closed indefinitely due to the earthquakes, it's quite apparent that Sony will be _losing_ much wealth – in fact, they've delayed their scheduled earnings forecast until they can figure out just how bad it's going to turn out. 

But you be a good little troll and don't let facts and data impinge on your biased, myopic little world view.


----------



## pierlux (Apr 26, 2016)

About the rumored new battery, I think we should not dress our head before having broken it. Compatibility with LP-E6/6n is possible, so let's wait for more substantial information before complaining.

About CFast, I've just checked how much I paid for a SanDisk Extreme IV 8 GB UDMA in late 2008: 144 Euros! But I wanted to try out the video capabilities of my 5D II, so I bought it anyway. A few months later, UDMA cards dropped to 1/4 of their launch price. CFast are going to be no exception, as soon as their sales skyrocket, the price will drop greatly.


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## slclick (Apr 26, 2016)

pierlux said:


> About the rumored new battery, I think we should not dress our head before having broken it. Compatibility with LP-E6/6n is possible, so let's wait for more substantial information before complaining.
> 
> About CFast, I've just checked how much I paid for a SanDisk Extreme IV 8 GB UDMA in late 2008: 144 Euros! But I wanted to try out the video capabilities of my 5D II, so I bought it anyway. A few months later, UDMA cards dropped to 1/4 of their launch price. CFast are going to be no exception, as soon as their sales skyrocket, the price will drop greatly.



CFast/CF makes much more sense. My SD slot stays empty.


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## ahsanford (Apr 26, 2016)

MayaTlab said:


> There will also be a much improved metering sensor.
> 
> 7 fps at 24mp is a little low. The main issue with this spec list is that, other than DPAF (which looks amazing) it's basically what the D760 will offer, but at a €2000 price point and maybe with a 28mp sensor even. And a few QA issues to boot, for the sake of tradition .



The reason the D750 is such a monkey wrench in market segmentation is that Nikon did what a lot of Canon people want -- a middle ground between the entry FF and the top end (non-gripped) FF. The D750 is a blend of the D610 and D810, and they decisions they made for which side of the aisle to take features from were decent ones -- they kept the pixel count low and cost manageable, and they sprinkled in a better-than-entry-level AF system and 6.5 fps. 

It's a real monkey wrench because Canon presently offers (official US reseller prices): 


A fairly stripped down 6D1 for $1399 (granted, it's up for a refresh)
A near end-of-life-cycle 5D3 for $2499 (ditto)
A super high-res sort-of 'all-rounder' in the 5DS for ~ $3500

I don't think anyone would invest $2500 in a 5D3 in year 4+ of its lifecycle, so folks needing an FF rig have a choice of a $1399 rig or a $3500 rig. I rarely give Nikon credit, but they hit the mark functionality-wise and value-proposition-wise with the 750D, and I'd love to see our Canon future FF landscape look like:


6D2 -- 5 FPS x 20 MP + basic AF @ $1750
Something new -- 6-7 FPS x 24 MP + better AF @ $2500
5D4 or 5DS @ $3500 (choose 'all-arounder' or high res, up to you)

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 26, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> I don't think anyone would invest $2500 in a 5D3 in year 4+ of its lifecycle, so folks needing an FF rig have a choice of a $1399 rig or a $3500 rig.



And yet, right now on Amazon the 5DIII is the #8 best-selling dSLR, while the 6D, 5DsR and 5Ds come in at #18, #54, and #105, respectively. So at least microcosm of Amazon.com, reality contradicts your thoughts on the matter.


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## ahsanford (Apr 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think anyone would invest $2500 in a 5D3 in year 4+ of its lifecycle, so folks needing an FF rig have a choice of a $1399 rig or a $3500 rig.
> ...



But that's the rebuttal to everything, right? Canon _always_ sells well. 

I'm not saying the sky is falling or Nikon is killing us or anything -- I'm just saying I like Nikon's concept of a middle option. That's all. 

- A


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## pwp (Apr 27, 2016)

sleepnever said:


> I really hope 24MP is not the final number. I was totally hoping for 28MP.



Could you really tell the difference? 

-pw


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## slclick (Apr 27, 2016)

pwp said:


> sleepnever said:
> 
> 
> > I really hope 24MP is not the final number. I was totally hoping for 28MP.
> ...



I'll take lower for better low light noise anyday


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## Zv (Apr 27, 2016)

If we've learned anything at all from last time when the 5D3 came out is that we should expect incremental improvements. This spec sheet is probably close to what we're gonna get. I think it has some substance. 

The real improvements will be those not on paper, the little things like ergonomics, buttons and menu options, customization options etc. 

Is 28Mpix vs 24Mpix a life changing difference? I hardly think so. 7fps is still pretty good for weddings and events. Some get by just fine with the 5DS and it's 5fps for wildlife! We've seen those shots right here on CR forum! Would having one more fps be make or break? I doubt it. 

The only thing really lacking in the 5D3 in my opinion was the sensor. It seems a bit dated now with the 1DXII and 80D releases. Stick one of them newly engineered sensors in the 5D3 and we're pretty much good to go! Everything else is just gravy!


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## instaimage (Apr 27, 2016)

Sorry CR but this "rumor" feels like click bait to keep us coming back to the site...  Do you really need that? Don't most all of us come back here daily cause we're starved for all that is Canon?

You have a "polished" 80D here with a few obvious (as in they're on the current models) "enhancements"... There will be a revolt if Canon drops that polished turd on us and calls it the 5D4...

Oh aren't rumors fun! Even if they sound like complete fiction...


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## John daniel (Apr 27, 2016)

If these are the true specs which I dought, the announcement day of this camera would be the day Canon would have lost the mid pro market and it's reputation.

JD
Was a long time user of the 5D serie from day one but not anymore. But I am still on for the 1D X II.


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## pierlux (Apr 27, 2016)

slclick said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > About the rumored new battery, I think we should not dress our head before having broken it. Compatibility with LP-E6/6n is possible, so let's wait for more substantial information before complaining.
> ...



If they could accomodate that configuration in a 5D body, Canon would have probably already done it with dual CF in the Mark III.

Canon know the vast majority of us would prefer the CFast/CF option - myself _in primis_; since I don't believe they're driven by either masochistic or sadistic intent I think if they can, they'll do it. I'm afraid they can't, unfortunately. But, who knows, 5D II was single card, the more they shrink the parts inside the body, the more room they make for what can't be shrunk, such as cards, so, maybe...


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## deletemyaccount (Apr 27, 2016)

These alleged rumored features look very close to the same spec as my 4 year old 5DIII. I understand the economics keeping you as a world leader but I personally don't see anything compelling enough to convince me to buy. 

It will just cost more money, require different batteries, more expensive memory cards and a new battery battery grip. I'm a little disappointed by what I see but then again this is a rumor correct?


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## Bennymiata (Apr 27, 2016)

If the 5d4 comes in with good 4k video and adc converter on chip, like the 80d and 1dx2, then I'm sold.
My 5d3 has around 200k clicks on it and I want to make it my backup.

If it doesn't have 4k video, then I will reluctantly have to consider a 1dx2, but I really don't want the extra weight.

I do weddings and product shots mainly, and having slo-mo 4k would be really usefull.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 27, 2016)

jebrady03 said:


> I laugh when people talk about an investment in memory cards. Talk about a depreciating asset! Wow! They depreciate MUCH faster than cars. Seriously... You consider a handful of practically disposable memory cards from 3 years ago an investment? Pay attention. Geez.
> 
> As for this rumor or any others that show up within the next 2 months, if we are to believe that the actual announcement is 4 months away, they are complete fabrications. They may be well designed, but they're fabrications. People send them in because they're trolling CR Guy and the users of this site. They enjoy watching people get worked up.
> 
> ...



The specifications for a new model are worked out about 2 years in advance, but may have minor changes if technology allows as long as cost does not increase. Canon holds those specifications very closely, and only a few people see the whole picture, its compartmentalized. Even VP's do not get the info unless they must have it to do their job. These people do not EVER leak information.

As the release time gets closer, more and more people are brought into the circle of those who know the whole picture. By now, production has already started, and prototypes are in the hands of employees and perhaps one or two Canon makers of light. Those people are not talking either.

Finally, in the last two months, the circle includes enough people that some of them will start sending e-mails to CR. CR guy knows those who have sent in correct information in the past, and when he gets information from multiple known sources, we might have a CR2 rumor. Finally, he receives photocopies of specs, photos of the camera and lots of cross confirmations and it becomes a CR3. This is normally very close to the announcement, sometimes just a week or less, but has happened a couple of months ahead in very few cases. Those who leak data may be companies preparing advertising, printing the manuals, or perhaps a tester tells some friend who turns out to have a loose tongue. In any event, it becomes impossible to control the information when the announcement is only days away. The press is invited, and press announcements are leaked.


I suppose I have 3 year old memory cards, but I have 6 month old ones as well, and they were not cheap.


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## noms78 (Apr 27, 2016)

RESOLUTION
--------------

I would have thought the 5D4 would need to be somewhat competitive with the D810 in terms of resolving power. I'm not interested in the 50MP 5DS/R sensors until they improve their noise/dynamic range (the "look" of the images do not look full frame quality - its akin to taking a crop sensor and sticking a much higher MP sensor into it, or comparing a crop sensor to a FF sensor, or a FF sensor to a MF sensor). Another thing to think about is the successor to the D810 could be using Sony's 42mp sensor. It will be interesting to see what happens to the 5DS/R successors. 

If the 5D4 had a megapixel count of 28-34MP I would think that would be more future proof. 24MP is not high enough in this age of 4k displays (and televisions) and I believe 4k is really going to take off in the next two years. The initial jump from 22 to 28 is much more important than from 28-34, for example.

IMAGE PLAYBACK
-------------------

Canon needs to improve the image playback options on the 5D3 successor. With the 5D3 it is annoying having to press the "info" button several times to display the RGB histogram (which I use all frequently to assess propr exposure), and several times again to hide it (when composing a shot). Also the ISO needs to be displayed in non-zoomed shot settings playback mode (it currently only displays file number, aperture, shutter)


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## Diko (Apr 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> It seems we're in the zone of diminishing returns - longer cycles, less change. Also, consider the overall strategy regarding target audience: who is a more likely buyer of a 5DIV – a 5DIII owner, or someone with a 5DII, 6D or APS-C body? Canon has data collected from prior releases to inform on that, and I'm sure it guides their feature choices across the lines.


+1



neuroanatomist said:


> I love how threads like this bring the trolls crawling from their caves. :


 Looks like they have been there for a while with no connection to the real world, since everyone is talking about them earthquakes of SONY's future sales.


----------



## timcz (Apr 27, 2016)

As much as everyone says Sony will make more money I just can't see that happening really. A few more will do it, but many will still buy the canon. 

I have an a7r that's actually currently for sale because as nice as the sensor is to use, I hate using it. It's such a pig, it's slow, it's clunky and has issues. I know they fixed a lot with mk2 but I don't want to pay 4K for something in Australia that I still have to adapt lenses to etc. 

I too want d810 level specs but I know it won't happen mp wise because of all the wedding togs that will likely benefit more from this when canon are prob pointing the landscapers like me to the 5ds (which is a great camera). 

So if I get a bit more DR with shadows you can pull like the 80D (not to stupid +4 ev levels that people like to demonstrate), and something around the 28mp mark I'll be happy. If it's 24, then so be it. I shoot a bit of wildlife too so any improvement on AF is welcome but the 5d3 does a great job now anyway. I'd like the built in intervalometer like the 80d has too.

At the end of the day I look at what people like Marc adamus did with the 5d2 that I can't even get close to, so I've seen what my mk3 can do. Any improvement will be welcome by me.


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## K (Apr 27, 2016)

My analysis of the rumored specs -


First, a foreword. These specs are likely very, very close to what will be. This is based on trends, logic, and the conservative nature of upgrades and Canon, not the wishful thinking of consumers.

<li>24.2MP Sensor</li>

This sounds right. 28MP is too high for what will be a wedding pro's workhorse. Or any event shooter. 24mp is already a lot of data for a wedding pro shooting 1,200 - 2,000 photos per event. It's a nice bump in resolution. It is a nice sweet spot. Gives space for buffers, accommodates speed, doesn't fill up cards too fast, doesn't slow down workflow - and plenty of resolution for cropping and printing huge albums. Also, gives more flexibility for low-light performance.


<li>61 AF Points (41 crosstype)</li>


This is probably dead on. The 1DX2 got the same AF system, but with better programming/processing. Likewise, the 5D4 will have the same points and types, but with improved sensitivity and processing. I hope it is also -3EV.

<li>DIGIC 7+ (Single)</li>

ok

<li>7fps</li>

This is realistic. Makes it fast, but not quite a sports camera. I was hoping for 8. That would have made it fantastic and that is the best compromise in that no, Canon isn't doing to give anyone a FF camera that can suit the speed needs of most which could undercut the 1D series, so 9 or 10 is out. 8 is fair. 7 is the most modest increase possible, a little stingy, but realistic.

<li>ISO 100-51,200 (expandable options)</li>

1 stop more native ISO. To be expected. Almost mandatory. We hope that it's not just 1 stop better, but cleaner, no banding or weird stuff, and more dynamic range. If the 80D is any indicator, the sensor on the 5D4 is going to be excellent.

<li>3.2″ touchscreen LCD</li>

Not sure this is any good unless the camera also has DPAF.

<li>CFast/SD card slots</li>

CFast is good move. Progress is important. CF is dead, old standard. Surely, many will whine and cry who have a pile of expensive CF cards. That's just the way it goes. Need faster standard to clear buffers. 

<li>Wifi built-in</li>

This is nice, and a real possibility. Hopefully it supports the fastest wifi standards for file transfer. Better yet, USB3 or USB-C tethering.

<li>GPS built-in</li>

Not sure why this would be included? This is a feature best suited for the 6D and 5DS - cameras enthusiasts, travelers, and landscape shooters prefer.

<li>BG-E20 battery grip</li>

Ok.


<li>LP-E20 battery</li>

There is nothing wrong with the current battery, making this move is just to milk consumers out of more $$

<li>Slight weight reduction</li>

This is always welcome.



Not mentioned ---


4K and DPAF.

Maybe we get one and not the other as to not make this too powerful of a video camera? That would be very Canonesque in style for sure.

CFast with only 7fps tells me the CFast is all about 4K. Otherwise, it is a useless advancement.

DPAF is great, but goes hand in hand with touch screen.


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## unfocused (Apr 27, 2016)

Why I'm skeptical of the CFast/SD Card Slot portion of the rumor:

1DX II: Canon opted for CF and CFast. Why would they now decide to go with CFast and SD? It just seems a little random to me.


----------



## millsrg1 (Apr 27, 2016)

Just give me a dang FLIPPY TOUCHSCREEN. Landscapes, astrophotography, architecture and any other low angle shooting is such a pain in the ass without it. Never understood why this feature won't break into the professional cameras, its so simple. The durability argument is BS. Just because it seems gimmicky doesn't make it an amateur feature, it's extremely freaking convenient. when this thing launches that little screen better flip out or I'm taking a dump in a box and shipping it to Japan.


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## noms78 (Apr 27, 2016)

K said:


> <li>24.2MP Sensor</li>
> This sounds right. 28MP is too high for what will be a wedding pro's workhorse. Or any event shooter.



The higher the better IMO. My ideal range would be 26-32MP. To accommodate those who want around the 20MP mark just offer a mRAW format. The 5D series are "all round" camera that one should be able to use for every style of photography. It should offer a compromise between the 1DxII and the 5DS/R but should definitely have ISO performance and dynamic range closer to the 1DxII. I have little interest in the current generation of 5DS/R despite their amazing resolution. Something about the image quality does not look right to me.

Do many wedding photographers who use D800/D810?


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## privatebydesign (Apr 27, 2016)

unfocused said:


> Why I'm skeptical of the CFast/SD Card Slot portion of the rumor:
> 
> 1DX II: Canon opted for CF and CFast. Why would they now decide to go with CFast and SD? It just seems a little random to me.



Maybe because computers that have SD card slots are very common. SD is ubiquitous.


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## tpatana (Apr 27, 2016)

One of the earlier rumors stated that 5D4 is even better for video than 1DX2. Assuming that's true, CFast is (unfortunately) about mandatory to be there. They can't go dual-CFast, so the other might (unfortunately) be SD.

I'd be ok with dual-CF, but the video might require CFast.


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## pvalpha (Apr 27, 2016)

A new battery sort of irks me. I'm considering this for a purchase next year. Having a different battery that will be incompatible with my LP-E6N's will annoy me slightly. 

As for the C-Fast and SD slots - I think this would probably be the best compromise. CFast is necessary if they're focusing on 4k capability. CF just can't cut it. And if they go with the UHS II specification for the SD card... that's a lot of potential throughput, on a par with the fastest CF cards. The spec is capable of 158MBps - 312MBps. UHS I U3 cards can get a max of 104MBps. I use a UHS I U3 card in my 7DmII. Its faster than most of my CF cards. 

Of course, all this is just wishful thinking and daydreaming. The specs look realistic. Could be a complete fake - but maybe Canon is trawling through the site looking for people's wish lists.


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## MrToes (Apr 27, 2016)

sleepnever said:


> I really hope 24MP is not the final number. I was totally hoping for 28MP.



*I was hoping for 36MP + ISO 51,200 clean*


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## jrista (Apr 27, 2016)

Taking this with a hefty grain of salt. Seems like an odd rumor, given the specs increase is minimal across the board. The 5D III brought more to the table, including a significantly improved AF system and much improved high ISO capabilities, among many other improvements and benefits.

This specs list is...incredibly bland. Either Canon is EXTREMELY confident in their customer loyalty, or this is someone's old 5D III wishlist relabeled "5D IV"...


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## M_S (Apr 27, 2016)

pierlux said:


> Add:
> 
> GPS
> An unspecified number of f/8 AF points (probably)
> ...



I don't get the AF area selector idea. I put that feature on the little thumb stick of the Mark 3 and can easily select my AF points already when in shooting mode.


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## j-nord (Apr 27, 2016)

timcz said:


> I too want d810 level specs but I know it won't happen mp wise because of all the wedding togs that will likely benefit more from this when canon are prob pointing the landscapers like me to the 5ds (which is a great camera).



I think you hit the nail on the head. Canon is catering to wedding and high volume portrait shooters with the 5D series (less the 5DS/R). They dont want the mpix and they dont need very high fps. They do burn through bodies and buy more. The 5DSR is the start of a new line to run parrallel to the standard 5D series. This 5DS/R parrallel line will cater more to landscape, architecture, etc - mini medium format type camera.


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## Refurb7 (Apr 27, 2016)

dilbert said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



The 5D3 was (and still is) nearly perfect for me, improving on everything I wanted improved in the 5D2. These cameras meet my needs so well that small ("bland") improvements are fine. If you start off with something that's nearly perfect, there's no need for big changes.


----------



## pwp (Apr 27, 2016)

millsrg1 said:


> Just give me a dang FLIPPY TOUCHSCREEN. Landscapes, astrophotography, architecture and any other low angle shooting is such a pain in the ass without it. Never understood why this feature won't break into the professional cameras, its so simple. The durability argument is BS. Just because it seems gimmicky doesn't make it an amateur feature, it's extremely freaking convenient. when this thing launches that little screen better flip out or I'm taking a dump in a box and shipping it to Japan.



Couldn't agree more. But on the 5DIV? Sadly unlikely. We're more likely to see these features on the 6DII some time in 2017. I got a Panasonic GH4 when they first shipped, primarily to shoot video. It has a totally brilliant and highly functional flippy touchscreen. It just makes such perfect sense. The naysayers have probably never used a properly resolved touchscreen.

-pw


----------



## j-nord (Apr 27, 2016)

Refurb7 said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...


Nearly perfect? Eye of the beholder I guess. There is always room for improvement with everything and thats what drives innovation.


----------



## romanr74 (Apr 27, 2016)

pierlux said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > pierlux said:
> ...



I am sure they could accomodate for that. I'm conviced the SD option is a choice they make. I would prefer CFast/CF too for the 5 series. And i think CFast/CFast would be best for the 1 series.


----------



## romanr74 (Apr 27, 2016)

millsrg1 said:


> Just give me a dang FLIPPY TOUCHSCREEN. Landscapes, astrophotography, architecture and any other low angle shooting is such a pain in the ass without it. Never understood why this feature won't break into the professional cameras, its so simple. The durability argument is BS. Just because it seems gimmicky doesn't make it an amateur feature, it's extremely freaking convenient. when this thing launches that little screen better flip out or I'm taking a dump in a box and shipping it to Japan.



You'll be disappointed. Good for me! I hate flippy screens...


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 27, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > slclick said:
> ...



Since I am not a pro I have quit using the SD card in my 5D Mark III. I get a much deeper buffer that way. I'd be suprized to see an SD card in the 5D Mark IV/DX.


----------



## -1 (Apr 27, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > slclick said:
> ...



The five series is a crossover between "pro" and "enthusiast". Not accomodaing the SDs would make the MF lose custumers.


----------



## PeterAlex7 (Apr 27, 2016)

pierlux said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > If correct, time to buy new cards and batteries (for some), still, only a CR1
> ...



What does CR1 mean? I'm new here.

I think they'll put the price between its predecessor and 5DS. Still acceptable for some or even for many, only if they just cut the FPS from the 1DX II and bring the rest to the 5D4


----------



## jebrady03 (Apr 27, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I suppose I have 3 year old memory cards, but I have 6 month old ones as well, and they were not cheap.



Why would you buy expensive (not cheap) CF cards for a camera which doesn't need the capabilities of a card worthy of a high price? That sounds like a case of GAS to me.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

M_S said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > Add:
> ...



Have you used a 7DII? The AF Area lever around the joystick allows direct selection of AF point selection _mode_ – single point, spot, zone, all-61 auto, etc. Quite handy to have that right next to the point selector, vs. pressing the button then using the main dial.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Apr 27, 2016)

If these specs are true, I'm a little surprised at how conservative they are as an upgrade. 1 extra fps and 2 more MP....that's really quite a begrudging upgrade when we know that the single Digic 7 is easily good for 28mp at 8 fps. I dare say that Canon will try to release this camera at £3000 UKP like the 5DIII and will see very poor sales for the first year as a consequence. 
The 5D was a game changer....no one made an economic full frame digital camera. The 5DII was a revolutionary camera that combined live view and movie mode in a full frame camera. The 5DIII was quite a revolutionary camera in that it changed the 5D genre into a professionally featured camera and pretty much made it the most versatile camera in production. The 5D4 looks like another 20D>30D brain fart from Canon. There really doesn't seem to be anything revolutionary or innovative about it. New features that will not really help me much (gps???...great every web nerd can go and steal my landscape locations) and a very mild warm over in the features that do matter to me. 

I guess this is what happens when Nikon drop their ball and stop being a challenge to Canon.


----------



## riker (Apr 27, 2016)

OMG let's admit, this couldn't be more boring 
24MP?!?! Should be somewhere between 28-36MP!
Where is the development here??? The touchscreen? )
I would be open to ANY kind of innovation...OK, no more pixels...then let's have a 20-30% size/weight reduction to see that Canon has realized the potential of the incredibly successful Sony A7 series.

I simply don't see a reason to upgrade from mk3. Maybe if mk4 has some asskicking noise levels but I doubt that.


----------



## pierlux (Apr 27, 2016)

M_S said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > Add:
> ...



It's so much convenient in the 7D II... once you get used to it you wouldn't renounce this feature. Plus, it's one more hard control on the back (and on the battery grip), so you have more customization options.

Of course I'm not sure at all Canon will introduce it on the 5D IV, but it's an all-rounder camera often used for sport/wildlife, it would be a nice addition, IMHO.


----------



## vscd (Apr 27, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> millsrg1 said:
> 
> 
> > Just give me a dang FLIPPY TOUCHSCREEN. Landscapes, astrophotography, architecture and any other low angle shooting is such a pain in the ass without it. Never understood why this feature won't break into the professional cameras, its so simple. The durability argument is BS. Just because it seems gimmicky doesn't make it an amateur feature, it's extremely freaking convenient. when this thing launches that little screen better flip out or I'm taking a dump in a box and shipping it to Japan.
> ...



+1 Same here...

I was quite amused. Even Fuji X-trans based cams show the rule... if you call it X-"*PRO*" it has no flappy screen


----------



## iso79 (Apr 27, 2016)

Still no USB 3.0? C'mon Canon!


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## davidj (Apr 27, 2016)

Looks good to me. Even if this isn't real, it's hard to imagine that it isn't close to the real thing.

Also unsurprising is the amount of negativity here. But it's not like +1 FPS and +2 MP are the only things going for it over the Mark III. It will have better dynamic range, like the 80D and 1D X II, which is supposedly a massive failing of previous Canons. High ISO performance will also improve, but it won't be as good as the 1D X II. Autofocus will be better, and it's hilarious to see people criticising "61 AF Points (41 crosstype)" as inadequate, given that these are the exact same specifications as the 1D X II.

I would prefer it to be 8 FPS, but this is mostly because I like the number eight more than seven.

Moving to CFast all but confirms 4K. The higher speed would be good for 4K recording, but I'm pretty sure that it's not needed for still shooting. The only other reason for CFast would be because Canon thinks it's the way of the future and they want to make it standard amongst their pro bodies, but this seems less likely to me.


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## davidj (Apr 27, 2016)

It would be neat if Canon offered each body with a handful of different sensor sizes (i.e., 18, 24, 28, 36 and 50 MP, with varying high ISO and FPS performance), like how iPhones come with different memory options. I'm not sure how possible this would be from an engineering (or economic) standpoint, but it would save people from arguing about how 24 MP isn't enough, as though Canon aren't able to make a 28 MP sensor.


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## pierlux (Apr 27, 2016)

PeterAlex7 said:


> What does CR1 mean? I'm new here.



It's simply a way of allocating a "reliability rating" to rumors, depending on the source the rumor comes from. The higher the number, the more reliable the source and therefore the rumor.


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## -1 (Apr 27, 2016)

davidj said:


> It would be neat if Canon offered each body with a handful of different sensor sizes (i.e., 18, 24, 28, 36 and 50 MP, with varying high ISO and FPS performance), like how iPhones come with different memory options. I'm not sure how possible this would be from an engineering (or economic) standpoint, but it would save people from arguing about how 24 MP isn't enough, as though Canon aren't able to make a 28 MP sensor.



If Canon do want the 5D4 have a pixel count between the 1DX2 and 5Dsr then e**(ln50-ln20)/2+ln20) ~ 33MP .


----------



## Fatalv (Apr 27, 2016)

Here's to hoping the rumor is wrong since it's CR1.

As a 5DMK3 and 7D owner I see absolutely no reason to upgrade. I'm sure it will be a great camera, but it's basically $3500 for +1fps, +1 stop ISO, +2MP, lose CF ability/stash of existing cards, shell out more $$ for CFast, lose plethora of LP-E6 Batteries, lose LP-E6 AC adaptor.


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## davidj (Apr 27, 2016)

-1 said:


> If Canon do want the 5D4 have a pixel count between the 1DX2 and 5Dsr then e**(ln50-ln20)/2+ln20) ~ 33MP .



Coincidentally, a 33.2 MP sensor is what you need for native 8K video or 4K with 2x2 pixel binning. I like the sound of that.


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## -1 (Apr 27, 2016)

davidj said:


> -1 said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon do want the 5D4 have a pixel count between the 1DX2 and 5Dsr then e**(ln50-ln20)/2+ln20) ~ 33MP .
> ...



Too good for a fiver then, maybe for the 1Dc2...


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## j-nord (Apr 27, 2016)

davidj said:


> -1 said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon do want the 5D4 have a pixel count between the 1DX2 and 5Dsr then e**(ln50-ln20)/2+ln20) ~ 33MP .
> ...



That sounds like the kind of advancement/future proofing attribute about half of us are keen to see. The other half seems fine with a very minor across the board bump. Only time will tell what Canon does.


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## j-nord (Apr 27, 2016)

-1 said:


> davidj said:
> 
> 
> > -1 said:
> ...


Weren't the video capabilities of the 5DIII ahead of the market? If Canon is indeed heavily targeting the wedding market with the 5D series then advanced 4K features and capabilities would be very attractive.


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## davidj (Apr 27, 2016)

-1 said:


> davidj said:
> 
> 
> > Coincidentally, a 33.2 MP sensor is what you need for native 8K video or 4K with 2x2 pixel binning. I like the sound of that.
> ...



There was a rumour that the 5D IV would have video features targeted towards filmmakers (as opposed to photojournalists), and high quality full frame 4K is something that I'd be more than happy to see if I was a filmmaker...



j-nord said:


> davidj said:
> 
> 
> > Coincidentally, a 33.2 MP sensor is what you need for native 8K video or 4K with 2x2 pixel binning. I like the sound of that.
> ...



The thing about higher pixel counts is that they're not without trade-offs. I, for one, am glad that I can fit more photos on a memory card and that my photos folder on my computer isn't 50% larger than it is. It's not like Canon can't do a higher resolution sensor at this price point, but they have to weigh the pros and cons for all the different types of photographers who use it. It probably makes more sense for them to make a camera that is basically the same but better in every way, rather than changing the type of camera it is (and having a bunch of people saying "too many pixels").


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## 100 (Apr 27, 2016)

davidj said:


> -1 said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon do want the 5D4 have a pixel count between the 1DX2 and 5Dsr then e**(ln50-ln20)/2+ln20) ~ 33MP .
> ...



8k = 8192 pixels wide
With a 3:2 format sensor it will be 8192 by 5462 pixels, so you need a 44.7mp sensor for 8k
Even if it’s not true 8k but only 8k UHD it will be 7680 by 5120 and that is 39.3mp


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## davidj (Apr 27, 2016)

100 said:


> davidj said:
> 
> 
> > Coincidentally, a 33.2 MP sensor is what you need for native 8K video or 4K with 2x2 pixel binning. I like the sound of that.
> ...



Oh, yeah. Oops. I normally know that film aspect ratios are different to photography ones.

At least this means there isn't a good reason to go for this higher MP count for the sake of better video.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

j-nord said:


> davidj said:
> 
> 
> > -1 said:
> ...



Some of those anticipating a 'very minor across the board bump' aren't necessarily fine with it, but recognize the reality of the likelihood. 

I saw nothing compelling in the 1D X II compared to the 1D X, so I don't plan to upgrade. Unlike some on this forum, I don't delude myself into thinking that Canon cares what I do or think.


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## slclick (Apr 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> j-nord said:
> 
> 
> > davidj said:
> ...



And to add my 2 cents, as a 5D3 user I see no reason to upgrade even if they add a Saeco espresso dispenser. (Ok well I would if that happened) but I just chime in because I'm in that incremental camp of realism as well. Now, I'm waiting for the Mk4 update to potentially help me judge what the 6D2 will be getting in trickle theory so I can once again have a 2nd body (with focusing screen and macro friendly flippy screen)


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## bdunbar79 (Apr 27, 2016)

I'm surprised people are so fixated on the MP count and not including the new sensor architecture. Even if it is a modest bump in MP it's a huge bump in sensor architecture.


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## davidj (Apr 27, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> I'm surprised people are so fixated on the MP count and not including the new sensor architecture. Even if it is a modest bump in MP it's a huge bump in sensor architecture.



Because Canon is obviously behind somehow, but it seems that Canon have sorted out their low ISO dynamic range issues.


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## vangelismm (Apr 27, 2016)

Still no dual slot? Like CF+CF or SD+SD?


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## 100 (Apr 27, 2016)

davidj said:


> 100 said:
> 
> 
> > davidj said:
> ...



If it’s a video orientated camera 39.3mp would be nice though, but personally I think it’s too close to the 5DS/R and I doubt we’re commercially at the level where a 39mp sensor can do output speeds of 30 or 60 frames per second of the entire sensor. So I expect a lower pixel count. It could very well be 24mp but if that’s the case the sensor and other features need to have substantial improvements if they want people to upgrade from a 5DIII.


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## ahsanford (Apr 27, 2016)

I'm curious to see what else -- *not* listed in the spec rumor -- we will see.

The 70D gave us DPAF. I don't think anyone was expecting that.

The 7D2 gave us that nice AF selector knob, anti-flicker mode. Both were pleasant surprises.

I'm curious to see what makes the 5D4 that isn't a 'horsepower' spec (MP / burst / AF / sensor) that wows us. 

- A


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## JoeDavid (Apr 27, 2016)

bdunbar79 said:


> I'm surprised people are so fixated on the MP count and not including the new sensor architecture. Even if it is a modest bump in MP it's a huge bump in sensor architecture.



Maybe, but that rumor didn't give any sensor details. I agree with you if the sensor has DPAF and on-sensor A/D conversion to improve DR. It will be interesting to see if they include UHD video, not the DCI 4K that is in the 1DXM2. I'm guessing they will but at a max of 30FPS.


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## awinphoto (Apr 27, 2016)

Dunno... with those specs, my 5d3 still smells like a rose... and is still working just fine...


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## ahsanford (Apr 27, 2016)

100 said:


> davidj said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, yeah. Oops. I normally know that film aspect ratios are different to photography ones.
> ...



I"ll go a step further -- there is a megapixel ceiling on the 5D4 just like there is FPS ceiling. Just as much as a 10-12 fps 5D4 might steal Canon of 1DX sales, a (hypothetically) 36 MP 5D4 will threaten the 5DS camp. Though the price for the 5DS rigs and the 5D4 will be similar (so you are less concerned about cannibalization financially), you don't want to alienate an entire group of shooters you just gave their dream rig to. 

So I see the 5D4 MP count sitting in the 20s somewhere. 24, 28, whatever. Somewhere around there.

- A


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## ahsanford (Apr 27, 2016)

Dutch_Snapper said:


> It has all been said before, but will it have the blue g 8) 8)?



Did you mean blue goo like the 35L II BR stuff? Where, _on the sensor?_

Sure, and I think we'll get IS and USM on it, too. 

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Dutch_Snapper said:
> 
> 
> > It has all been said before, but will it have the blue g 8) 8)?
> ...



Sure, Canon will use it to help get better DxOMark scores. If lenses can have DR, why can't sensors have blue goo?


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## pierlux (Apr 27, 2016)

slclick said:


> And to add my 2 cents, as a 5D3 user I see no reason to upgrade even if they add a Saeco espresso dispenser. (Ok well I would if that happened) but I just chime in because I'm in that incremental camp of realism as well. Now, I'm waiting for the Mk4 update to potentially help me judge what the 6D2 will be getting in trickle theory so I can once again have a 2nd body (with focusing screen and macro friendly flippy screen)



Always nice to hear someone speaking words of wisdom. Well, read, actually. Common sense is a rare commodity in the land where GAS reigns supreme.

I promised I won't upgrade before both the 5D IV and 6D II are released and probably wait a bit longer for their price to settle. This time I'll honor my promise, I didn't with the 7D II.


----------



## romanr74 (Apr 27, 2016)

davidj said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised people are so fixated on the MP count and not including the new sensor architecture. Even if it is a modest bump in MP it's a huge bump in sensor architecture.
> ...



Agree. Improved sensor tech at same resolution is a nice improvement. Getting a little MP increase would not be awful neither. I was out with my 11-24mm f/4.0 this past weekend and the thing is so wide and soooooo great that I actually started appreciating the idea of the 50mp body bundle...


----------



## ahsanford (Apr 27, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> davidj said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



There are a few of us on this forum, I suspect, that are hoping Canon completely hits it out of the park, like a D700 to D800 level improvement, in which resolution, DR _and_ noise levels are all dramatically improved.

I think that's a very unique instance where Nikon cut a check to Sony for _just_ the right opportunity. I don't see that kind of cavalry coming with the 5D4, but it will still improve nonetheless.

- A


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## bdunbar79 (Apr 27, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > davidj said:
> ...



Well, you can't really improve DR without improving noise levels...


----------



## hmatthes (Apr 27, 2016)

Easy solution for the megapixel war in this thread: Perhaps Canon will announce a 5D4 *family*... a 24mb 5D4 *AND* a 50+mp 5D4sr -- then we could choose -- I'll buy the former while letting the pixel-peepers buy the sr version!


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## ahsanford (Apr 27, 2016)

RickSpringfield said:


> davidj said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



Let's say for a moment that they boost the resolution significantly. Even at 36 MP, that would buy you a roughly 7x5k image. 24 MP would be 6x4k. So as much as 36 is a bigger number, it only bought you the smallest of detail boost or ability to crop. I'm not opposed to an MP bump, but it needs to be massive to be truly impactful.

It makes much more sense to improve performance in that same 22-24 MP neighborhood (DR, noise, etc.) and, I don't know, _wow us with a great new feature_. Simply playing whack-a-mole to match other manufacturer's specs is silly -- Canon needs to innovate at a feature level and give us something very valuable we weren't expecting, like how DPAF and anti-flicker arrived. Nice features like spot metering at any AF point, automated and comprehensive AFMA, wireless master on-board the camera, some clever MF lens focusing assistance through the viewfinder, etc. would be really appreciated.

- A


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## pierlux (Apr 27, 2016)

hmatthes said:


> Easy solution for the megapixel war in this thread: Perhaps Canon will announce a 5D4 *family*... a 24mb 5D4 *AND* a 50+mp 5D4sr -- then we could choose -- I'll buy the former while letting the pixel-peepers buy the sr version!



This solution is so brilliant that a 5D family with 50 MP options already exists!


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## gsealy (Apr 27, 2016)

The actual video specs are the deal maker/breaker for me. The 1DxII has 4K, but it just misses the mark. It records internally 4K at 8 bits. External recording is limited to HD. It doesn't have C-Log either. Interesting is that it does have 4K 60FPS, which is great. The codec, motion JPEG, is a series of JPG files, and we know how JPG compares to RAW when it comes to color grading. So basically, I just can't see shelling out $6K for it. 

It was said that the 5DIV will be more cinema/video oriented. Canon would do well to have external recording capability at 4K 60FPS true 10bit. Then using an Atomos that would record in Pro Res, for example, we could get good video to use and work with. This capability would be a natural extension to what we have with the 5DIII. If the 5DIV doesn't have it, then I can go elsewhere. There are a number of candidates out there.


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## pierlux (Apr 27, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Nice features like spot metering at any AF point, automated and comprehensive AFMA, wireless master on-board the camera, some clever MF lens focusing assistance through the viewfinder, etc. would be really appreciated.
> 
> - A



I concur. Everybody else on CR, too, I presume. Question is, at which cost? If it's only a matter of software, probably the new features wouldn't impact much on price, but spot metering at any AF point and on-board wireless master are hardware things which, to some extent, would affect pricing.


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 27, 2016)

Sharlin said:


> My eurocents:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Canon G7 X MKII is the first camera with a Digic 7 processor so its in the wild and most likely headed for the Canon 5D MKIV.


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## ahsanford (Apr 27, 2016)

pierlux said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Nice features like spot metering at any AF point, automated and comprehensive AFMA, wireless master on-board the camera, some clever MF lens focusing assistance through the viewfinder, etc. would be really appreciated.
> ...



Canon would have us believe you need some dedicated 1D metering module to pull off spot metering at any AF point. A Nikon D5500 for $500 has this feature. Hell, my _iPhone_ does this. 

Are either of those a rock-solid, take-it-to-the-bank metering implementation? Most likely not. But I think it would be handy for run-and-gun shooting situation with changing lighting, say at events, shooting street, candids, etc. 

It just seems such a nutty feature to withhold from non 1D cameras. This one I'll never understand.

- A


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think anyone would invest $2500 in a 5D3 in year 4+ of its lifecycle, so folks needing an FF rig have a choice of a $1399 rig or a $3500 rig.
> ...


Amazon is ONE retailer B&H likely shift more cameras than Amazon at the high end. 
Canon however have a quandary the faithful are holding off waiting for the 5D IV and the 6D MKII that has to be hurting sales and whilst they mentioned the recent release of the EOS 80D they can certainly atribute flat sales partially to the waiting game.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Of course...thus my use of the phrase highlighted above. The point was that in response to the statement, "_I don't think anyone would invest $2500 in a 5D3 [today]_," the fact that the 5DIII is currently on Amazon's Top-10 pretty clearly suggests that statement is wildly inaccurate.


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 27, 2016)

Owning both the 6D and the 5DS its not generally resolution thats the issue but DR. In low light noise is definately a factor so I would gladly take 24MP if I get better low light performance with a cleaner image when pushed. 

The 5D MKIV should get the 150,000-pixel RGB+IR metering sensor Eos iSA System with 252-zone metering as found in the 5DS as well as the same type of reinforced base plate, mirror assembly and intervalometer all of which are improvements over the 5D MKIII. The USB 3 connector as found in the 5DS and 7D MKII is a pain in the ass using the screw on cable support it makes much more sense to go with the newer USB-C connector in the USB 3.1 standard like Apple it is smaller while keeping the same data rate throughput.


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## pierlux (Apr 27, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



I'm afraid a dedicated metering module is necessary, but I'm not sure. I recall I read something about the possibility of implementing AF-linked metering in the 5D III on the Magic Lantern forum and the answer was no, it's not possible. (BTW, our member Marsu42 also chimed in in that thread, now he has disappeared from both CR and ML, I wonder what has happened to him...) But, as I said, I'm not sure. Anyone knows if it's really impossible with the current module? Not an essential feature, but better having it than not.

Actually, given Nikon offers it even in inexpensive cameras, it shouldn't be a costly feature. Different issue as far as wireless flash commander is concerned, this one would be expensive for sure.


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## Maiaibing (Apr 27, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> 36 MP 5D4 will threaten the 5DS camp. Though the price for the 5DS rigs and the 5D4 will be similar (so you are less concerned about cannibalization financially), you don't want to alienate an entire group of shooters you just gave their dream rig to.


That's me. Would 10x rather have 36 MPIX 5D4 than 24 MPIX. Thank you Canon.


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## Maiaibing (Apr 27, 2016)

PeterAlex7 said:


> What does CR1 mean? I'm new here.



Only the "CrazyOne's" will take any notice of this...


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## unfocused (Apr 27, 2016)

Reading through this thread, I get the sense that a whole lot of people are just laying the groundwork for justifying much whining and wailing when the actual 5D IV is introduced. 

The listed specs were not rocket science. Anyone who is realistic and has been paying attention could pretty much write the same or similar spec list. And, in addition, at this point in the development of DSLRs (they are now a mature product with incremental, not revolutionary advancements -- get over it) the feature set is not that significant.

The 5DIV will have slightly better resolution, slightly better dynamic range, slightly better high ISO noise performance, slightly faster fps and slightly better autofocus than its predecessor. It appears Canon is going to throw in some added features, such as GPS and WiFi, dual-pixel autofocus, some type of touch screen and 4K video. 

All in all, that's a very nice and logical upgrade from one generation to the next. 

If that's not enough for you, well...you can either buy the 1DX II or switch brands if you think another brand has more to offer. But, don't take it personally. Canon has done their market research and they will be offering a camera targeted to, you know, real buyers, not the spec geeks who populate forums.


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## pierlux (Apr 27, 2016)

unfocused said:


> Reading through this thread, I get the sense that a whole lot of people are just laying the groundwork for justifying much whining and wailing when the actual 5D IV is introduced.
> 
> The listed specs were not rocket science. Anyone who is realistic and has been paying attention could pretty much write the same or similar spec list. And, in addition, at this point in the development of DSLRs (they are now a mature product with incremental, not revolutionary advancements -- get over it) the feature set is not that significant.
> 
> ...



But... but... unfocused, by saying this you plain kill my prediction of 20 pages of comments in 48 hours! We're at 10 in 24, it's only halfway, how dare you use so much common sense?


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## Sabaki (Apr 27, 2016)

Hmmmmm...what's the new nag point going to be if Canon has sorted out the DR and noise performance?

Seems MP count is a serious contender :


----------



## kaihp (Apr 27, 2016)

davidj said:


> It would be neat if Canon offered each body with a handful of different sensor sizes (i.e., 18, 24, 28, 36 and 50 MP, with varying high ISO and FPS performance), like how iPhones come with different memory options. I'm not sure how possible this would be from an engineering (or economic) standpoint, but it would save people from arguing about how 24 MP isn't enough, as though Canon aren't able to make a 28 MP sensor.



Hell will freeze over before this happens. While it would be technically possible to do this, it would not commercially possible.

The sensor isn't like the memory in your iPhone or PC, where you put multiple chips beside each other in order to expand the memory.

Consider the following:

In order to make your 5 different sensor sizes, Canon would have to develop 5 different sensors, each requiring their own production mask sets (these are not cheap).

The firmware would have to know the sensor size and the 50MP camera is likely to require more in-camera DRAM for temporary storage (before writing to the flash card, be it CF, SD or CFast).
FPS: a higher FPS will require a different mirrorbox, which can withstand the higher speeds and shock from slapping that mirror around. A higher FPS mirrorbox will most likely be more expensive than a low-FPS mirrorbox.
SKUs (Stock Keeping Units). With 5 different SKUs to choose from, Canon will have to manufacture and keep stock of products and spare parts for 5 products rather than one. Since Canon doesn't know which of the five SKUs that will be the big sellers, the popular ones will be undersupplied, while the other will languish on the store shelves (or worse: Canon's inventory shelves). This will drive up cost.
SKUs (part 2): with the total same volume of sold products, each of the 5 version would only sell in 1/5th the volume. This will drive up production costs, due to efficiency losses when switching between two SKUs

I'm even surprised that Canon chose to market two versions of the 5Ds (5Ds & 5DsR). I think this a "tester" from Canon, to see if there would be a realistic market for than one body with near-identical specs (in this case: with/without AA filter), since Nikon had previously gone that route.


----------



## RickWagoner (Apr 27, 2016)

pierlux said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > The mp and focus points seem wrong to me. Marketing wise it would be suicide to have the same mp as the crop bodies even at this high level. The *61 points is a bit low for such a grade body* also the crop 80D and 7D2 are too near that number.
> ...


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Apr 27, 2016)

I wonder.
24MP, 7fps

by the time this ever comes out D820 might be 42MP 7fps (and over-sampled 4k video and top low ISO DR, as well as very good high ISO)

if this isn't fake, and it might be, one would sure hope the sensor can fully match Exmor isn't a half-way thing like the 80D sensor and that the 4k video will have all the basic usability features like live 100% zoom video focusing box, focus peaking, zebras and offer 10bit (plus CLOG) instead of 8bit, if they match the Sony/Nikon for MP and over-sampling amount, gotta at least do something better


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## ahsanford (Apr 27, 2016)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> I wonder.
> 24MP, 7fps
> 
> by the time this ever comes out D820 might be 42MP 7fps (and over-sampled 4k video and top low ISO DR, as well as very good high ISO)



If the 5D3 and D810 never truly matched up head to head (one was an all arounder, the other was a fine stills rig but couldn't do it all), the _5D4 and D820_ (or D900) will further spread these two apart. 

We've been waiting for the A7R II sensor to end up in a Nikon body -- though that may not happen if Nikon puts its own sensors in there again. But yes, if Nikon buys the a7R II sensor and drops a 7-8 fps 42 MP rig, Canon's rebuttal will be "With us, you can have 7-8 fps with a 5D4 OR you can have 50 MP in the 5DS rigs". That's not a stellar answer (if one presumes that question is asked of Canon in the future -- many here contend that they don't give a damn what Nikon offers).

I still think the 5D4 will outsell a D820 for a host of reasons, and I recognize a market is far far far more than an offering's simple brute force value proposition of [sensor size] X [MP] X [fps], but Nikon very well may offer that rig in the next 12 months to try to make some business.

- A


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## slclick (Apr 27, 2016)

No matter how many in the know photographers tell you that it's glass over body any and every day, people still will threaten to jump ship to a lesser lens Mfg over a small camera body detail. Bodies are transient, skill is priceless.


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## Viper28 (Apr 27, 2016)

24mpx? I'd have thought that was a more suitable upgrade figure for the 6D2, I would hope they hit (at least) 28mpx for the 5D4. I'd also hope for 8fps


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## slclick (Apr 27, 2016)

Viper28 said:


> 24mpx? I'd have thought that was a more suitable upgrade figure for the 6D2, I would hope they hit (at least) 28mpx for the 5D4. I'd also hope for 8fps



Would most buyers know 7 vs 8? Plus this isn't s sports oriented body class, it's an all rounder and 7 is pretty damn good for events, studio,landscape, most sports and wildlife. The quibbling over minute details here on a CR1 is entertaining.


----------



## timcz (Apr 27, 2016)

At the end of the day, canon have shown what they're capable of with the 80d sensor now (assuming that will translate across to the 5d4 in terms of pushing shadows etc). 

One big problem this will have for the scapes shooters like me is that yes there is a 5ds out there, but it won't have this when the 5d4 will. So it's a trade off between better DR choosing the 4, or more megapixels with the S/SR. Personally I'll take the 4, but you can see where many are coming from in the fact we have to choose which we'd prefer, when Nikon have had both in the one body for so long now. 

I do welcome the 5d4 and what it brings - I'm just way too heavily invested in good canon glass to want to switch to Nikon (when really as I said in my previous post) the 5d3 does me well now.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 27, 2016)

Sabaki said:


> Hmmmmm...what's the new nag point going to be if Canon has sorted out the DR and noise performance?
> 
> Seems MP count is a serious contender :



The beauty of MP count is that there can never be an acceptable solution. It's simply a choice and not a "problem" to be solved. So, this will allow forum participants to argue forever without Canon ever being able to produce an acceptable product. Finally, we've found the perfect Canon Rumors battleground.


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## leWrat (Apr 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Unlike some on this forum, I don't delude myself into thinking that Canon cares what I do or think.



Speak for yourself!
I know that the Canon board base all their important decisions on my comments in this forum. They have become very concerned as this is only my second post and so they have been at a loss as to how to run their business.
They have even been considering bringing back 35mm film, with free scissors in case you want a crop camera and unrestricted FPS, assuming your thumb can wind it quick enough!
So listen to me now board members, no scissors! Looking at some comments not everyone is grown up enough to be trusted with them!


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## tiger82 (Apr 27, 2016)

I hope the 5D Mark IV is north of $3499 so I can justify buying a used 1DX


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## slclick (Apr 27, 2016)

leWrat said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Unlike some on this forum, I don't delude myself into thinking that Canon cares what I do or think.
> ...


It was actually your 3rd post which means to check your post for a shiny new Pixma Pro-100 with sample ink set.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2016)

leWrat said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Unlike some on this forum, I don't delude myself into thinking that Canon cares what I do or think.
> ...



Well, certainly there's an exception to every rule. 

If you wouldn't mind, please ask them to bring back the direct print button and to make it really big – maybe even use that big button on the top right/front, and move that less-important picture-taking thingamabutton to the back of the camera somewhere.


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## ahsanford (Apr 27, 2016)

timcz said:


> One big problem this will have for the scapes shooters like me is that yes there is a 5ds out there, but it won't have this when the 5d4 will. So it's a trade off between better DR choosing the 4, or more megapixels with the S/SR. Personally I'll take the 4, but you can see where many are coming from in the fact we have to choose which we'd prefer, when Nikon have had both in the one body for so long now.



If it's _landscapes_, you might just get an A7R II and an EF adaptor. That will get you Canon glass + the sensor performance you are looking for. No painful migration costs other than the cost of the body, adaptor, L-plate... _and 17 batteries._ :

- A


----------



## rrcphoto (Apr 27, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> leWrat said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



dpreview has lost it's way since canon removed the direct print button.


----------



## Eersel (Apr 27, 2016)

I'd prefer this.

24.2MP Sensor  *28 MP*
61 AF Points (41 crosstype) *(Dual Pixel)*
DIGIC 7+ (Single)
7fps
ISO 100-51,200 (expandable options)
3.2″ touchscreen LCD
CFast/SD card slots
Wifi built-in
GPS built-in
BG-E20 battery grip
LP-E20 battery
Slight weight reduction


----------



## great9 (Apr 28, 2016)

sleepnever said:


> I really hope 24MP is not the final number. I was totally hoping for 28MP.



I'd be happy with better low-light performance than Sony.
It's gonna have 4k with 30 min limit - it has to - nikon has it.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 28, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > leWrat said:
> ...



I print direct from the 1Ds MkIII and would be very sorry to lose the rich feature set of the in camera editing and direct output to print.


----------



## timcz (Apr 28, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> timcz said:
> 
> 
> > One big problem this will have for the scapes shooters like me is that yes there is a 5ds out there, but it won't have this when the 5d4 will. So it's a trade off between better DR choosing the 4, or more megapixels with the S/SR. Personally I'll take the 4, but you can see where many are coming from in the fact we have to choose which we'd prefer, when Nikon have had both in the one body for so long now.
> ...



Tried this with the a7r and it just wasn't friendly to use. Everytime id pick up my canon again it was like a gift from heaven lol. 

My a7r is for sale as a result - I know v2 is better, but it's 4 grand here in Australia. Hard to justify when I still need to use an adapter which in itself is creating another source of potential issues.


----------



## LoneRider (Apr 28, 2016)

This is pretty darn amusing.

So, y'all are worried about the 5Div with 8 or 9 FPS competing against the 7Dii, I think Canon would gladly lose the same of a 10FPS crop for a 8-9 FPS full frame sensor. Further, the 7Dii is likely also on the short refresh list, right after a DPAF EF-M camera and the 6Dii. Considering the 1DXii has 14 FPS, it is very reasonable to expect the 7Dii to get 12FPS. As it appears canon is getting exceptionally good at getting the floppy mirror to move really quickly with no vibration.

The 5Div will have all of the features of the 80D. The 5D is to stay the jack of all, and the master of weddings.

To do that is needs class leading 4K video, with touchscreen. I very much expect it to best the 1DXii, which is likely a firmware upgrade away from some better video features anyway.

As part of being the jack of all, they are going to put WIFI and GPS so dumb asses like myself will spend $3500 on a camera, and some more on FF lenses because we see the value in a $5-$10 Trimble GPS module.

Back to an old point of mine, do y'all really think Chevrolet is worried about 500+HP Camaro's siphoning off Corvette sales? *NOPE* Assuming Canon is firmly in the 21st century, the 1DXii is their iconic camera. For those who need the absolute best of the best. The 5Div will be there to bring in the bread and butter.

I think the hardest part of all this is were to position the 6Dii and the 5DSii. Former with DPAF? 5DSii likely will be the only Canon camera to be prices over $1000 without DPAF.


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## ahsanford (Apr 28, 2016)

LoneRider said:


> So, y'all are worried about the 5Div with 8 or 9 FPS competing against the 7Dii, I think Canon would gladly lose the same of a 10FPS crop for a 8-9 FPS full frame sensor. Further, the 7Dii is likely also on the short refresh list, right after a DPAF EF-M camera and the 6Dii. Considering the 1DXii has 14 FPS, it is very reasonable to expect the 7Dii to get 12FPS. As it appears canon is getting exceptionally good at getting the floppy mirror to move really quickly with no vibration.



Respectfully disagree.

We're not saying Canon would protect losing 7D2 sales to a high fps 5D4 -- as you correctly said, Canon would actually love that. 

We're saying Canon *would* protect losing _1DX II_ sales to a high fps 5D4. 

And the 7D line is historically on a glacial update timeframe, like 5 years. Don't expect a 7D3 anytime soon unless someone has hard, incontrovertible data that Canon has lost the amateur wildlife segment to the D500 (i.e. good luck with that). I see the 7D3 not arriving for a very long time -- if you are a birder with a boatload of Canon glass and are financially constrained to stay in crop for reach reasons, I highly doubt you'd bolt to Nikon (or some super mirrorless crop rig down the road) because the 7D refresh cycle was too slow. You'd probably suck it up and wait. Ask today's 7D2 users about that, because they just ran that gauntlet and waited for that refresh for years.

- A


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## LoneRider (Apr 28, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> LoneRider said:
> 
> 
> > So, y'all are worried about the 5Div with 8 or 9 FPS competing against the 7Dii, I think Canon would gladly lose the same of a 10FPS crop for a 8-9 FPS full frame sensor. Further, the 7Dii is likely also on the short refresh list, right after a DPAF EF-M camera and the 6Dii. Considering the 1DXii has 14 FPS, it is very reasonable to expect the 7Dii to get 12FPS. As it appears canon is getting exceptionally good at getting the floppy mirror to move really quickly with no vibration.
> ...



I think they might be worried about losing business from people who have a 5D and a 7D for sports. And they might. With Nikon and Sony pushing specs, I think they would be silly to try to maintain a huge difference in FPS between the 1DX and the 5D. There is no point.

Of course, DPAF and a solid 4K Video, may make a very compelling jack of all trades camera, even if it only has 7 FPS.

I must admit, I would really like 8 or 9. The kids are in Taekwondo, doing board breaks and other stuff. The buildings tend to be questionably lit, and my 7D really, really struggles to get fast enough shutter speeds, yet keep the noise/ISO down. I spend far too much time balancing blur and how much I am willing to work on the pictures in LightRoom.

There is no freeking way I am going to spend 6K on a 1DX, but will stretch the budget for a FF that can do 8FPS.

I wonder if they will pull the same trick, strangle the mirror to 7 FPS, but allow live view to pop off frames at 8 to 10 FPS??


----------



## LoneRider (Apr 28, 2016)

I am going to expand on my last point, if y'all don't mind.

So, if the shutter will be limited to 7FPS, but, they allow 1 to 3 extra FPS in live view mode, will that satisfy people?

The more I think about it, that will. I think 7 FPS will do fine for when I bird or bracket, and will go into live mode for the rare occasions that I need the extra FPS, like during board breaks.


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## Refurb7 (Apr 28, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> We're saying Canon *would* protect losing _1DX II_ sales to a high fps 5D4.



I doubt that Canon is ever worried about losing sales to Canon. If they were, they wouldn't make a dozen or so DSLR models. If someone buys a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2, Canon doesn't lose anything. They'll sell many more 5D4 than 1DX2, making up for the "loss". The only lost sale they worry about is someone buying a Nikon/Sony/Pentax/etc. instead of a Canon.


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## Freddie (Apr 28, 2016)

I have the 7D MK II, 5D MK III, and 5DS R. The only real problem I have with the 5D MK III is that it won't allow exposure compensation when using manual exposure and Auto-ISO. It's a great camera for me and has been for three years.
The two problems I see with the prospective specs being presented for the 5D MK IV is the CFast card and the battery model change. All else is okay. If the CFast card slot only has access to CFast cards, those cards are running at around 10 times the price of a CF card. I haven't compared all the options so they may be less than that in some cases but they are just too expensive for now. The fact that the batteries would perhaps no longer interchange with my other camera bodies is not a game changer but would be a big deterrent for my purposes.
We'll see what the real specs are in August, I guess.


----------



## jebrady03 (Apr 28, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> And the 7D line is historically on a glacial update timeframe, like 5 years.



Don't forget, the 7.5D (7D + fw update) was more or less a light refresh of the 7D. That may or may not factor into the refresh cycle for the next iteration.


----------



## TAF (Apr 28, 2016)

If this proves to be the specs for the 5D4, I see...a new lens in my future.

There really isn't enough improvement here (for my uses) warrant an upgrade, nor would it slake the thirst of GAS; my 5D3 is just fine, thank you.

A new lens, however, might just set the heart aflutter, and there might be something nifty announced at the same time.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 28, 2016)

timcz said:


> One big problem this will have for the scapes shooters like me is that yes there is a 5ds out there, but it won't have this when the 5d4 will...you can see where many are coming from in the fact we have to choose which we'd prefer...



That's true with anything. A comparable newer model of any product is going to have features that the older model doesn't have. When the 5Ds came out, it had features that the 5DIII didn't have. The 80D has some features the 7DII doesn't have and it's a less expensive camera. 

The 5Ds II will have features that the 5DIV doesn't have. It's not like a manufacturer can go back in time and add features to an older model that weren't available when it was first introduced. If you want the resolution of the 5Ds and the features of the 5DIV, then wait until the 5Ds II comes out, it will likely not only have most of the features of the 5D IV, but some new ones as well.


----------



## tpatana (Apr 28, 2016)

Freddie said:


> I have the 7D MK II, 5D MK III, and 5DS R. The only real problem I have with the 5D MK III is that it won't allow exposure compensation when using manual exposure and Auto-ISO. It's a great camera for me and has been for three years.



I already sold my 5D3 so I can't check, but somehow I feel I was doing that, can't remember how. If you switch to Av (or Tv), then dial exp-comp to what you want, and then back to M+A-ISO, did the exp-comp setting stay?

Big part of my shots were M+A-ISO, so I think that was there somewhere. Too old to remember properly though.


----------



## tpatana (Apr 28, 2016)

slclick said:


> K said:
> 
> 
> > Every thread is contaminated by the Exmor loving Nikotrolls.
> ...



Ansel pictures are too sharp, hurts my eyes. Unusable photos.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 28, 2016)

jebrady03 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > And the 7D line is historically on a glacial update timeframe, like 5 years.
> ...



Because Nikon all but abandoned the high-end crop frame market for years, there was no competitive pressure on Canon to rush to upgrade the original 7D. In addition, there are those who say that Canon needed to update its sensor fabrication processes and that contributed to the delay (I don't know if that's true or not).

Still, I expect that the wait between the 7DII and 7DIII will not be anywhere near as long as the wait between the 7D and 7D II. If the 6D II comes out sometime next spring, then we might see a 7DIII next fall. That's a bit of a wait, but nothing like the time between the 7D and 7D II. In the meantime, the 7DII remains very competitive against the new Nikon.


----------



## LoneRider (Apr 28, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> And the 7D line is historically on a glacial update timeframe, like 5 years. Don't expect a 7D3 anytime soon unless someone has hard, incontrovertible data that Canon has lost the amateur wildlife segment to the D500 (i.e. good luck with that). I see the 7D3 not arriving for a very long time --



We might have to agree to disagree.

I think the 80D is far too close to the 7Dii for it to stand for another 3 or 4 years. They messed up on the 7Dii, without the touch screen, people like me stayed on the sidelines. The 7Dii needs to be a clear leader over the 80D, and it is not.

I suspect the 7Dii, will get a mild refresh ASAP, obviously 6Dii, DPAF EOS-M, and 5Div taking priority. But getting on die ADC, touch screen, and maybe a slight bump in FPS.

4K video??? Why not, it might need to.

Think about it, if Canon where to pull off, but the end of 2017
80D ....
1DX-ii ....
5D-iv ~28MP, 8'ish FPS (+2 in live mode), 4K, GPS, WIFI, DPAF, touch screen, near 1DXii AF, flicker at under $3500
EOS M DPAF with 80D sensor, 4'ish FPS, 4K - 60fps, GPS, WIFI, touch screen, DPAF, flicker detect at under $1200-$1500 with good kit lens
6D-ii ~36MP, 4'ish FPS, 1K-60fps or 4k-30fps video, GPS, WIFI, touch screen, flicker at under $2200
7D-iii fixed with touchscreen and on chip ADC
5DS-ii ~50MP, 6'ish FPS, 4K-30fps video, GPS, WIFI, touch screen?, flicker

EDIT: removed DPAF from the 5DS-ii

Canon would have a product line with a spot for everyone. Question is, do you put DPAF on the 6Dii, probably. Obviously all models would get the ondie ADC. Actually, it would be pretty awesome.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 28, 2016)

tpatana said:


> Freddie said:
> 
> 
> > I have the 7D MK II, 5D MK III, and 5DS R. The only real problem I have with the 5D MK III is that it won't allow exposure compensation when using manual exposure and Auto-ISO. It's a great camera for me and has been for three years.
> ...



That's interesting. I just tried this with my 5DIII and my 7DII. On the 5DIII, it automatically goes to the center point on the exposure meter and I don't seem to have any luck moving it off of there to compensate. Only occurs in manual with auto ISO. On the 7DII, if you first set the exposure compensation in AV or TV it will hold to that compensation when you switch to M. 

I never noticed this. Seems like a bug to me. I can see why this would be a bit annoying for those who want to use Auto ISO, and manual as I know I regularly expose a touch to the right and it seems like you cannot do that in manual on the 5DIII if using auto ISO.

The workaround to me would be to use TV or AV instead. I know some people are "M" fanatics, but really, you can use TV or AV just like a manual mode by simply adjusting the exposure compensation.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 28, 2016)

LoneRider said:


> Think about it, if Canon where to pull off, by the end of 2017
> 
> 80D ....
> 1DX-ii ....
> ...



I think the end of 2017 might be a bit optimistic for all of these, but I could see your list being completed in the first quarter of 2018. I wouldn't be surprised to also see an SL2 in there somewhere. I think that's a very underrated camera with a lot of niche marketing potential for those who like the DSLR form factor but want a very compact model.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 28, 2016)

dilbert said:


> The problem for Canon is that next to the D500, the 7D2 has a limited value proposition



Yes, I'm sure that's true in dilbertland, where lenses are cameras and the 1D C isn't a dSLR. The rest of us live in a place called reality, you should visit there sometime.


----------



## timcz (Apr 28, 2016)

unfocused said:


> timcz said:
> 
> 
> > One big problem this will have for the scapes shooters like me is that yes there is a 5ds out there, but it won't have this when the 5d4 will...you can see where many are coming from in the fact we have to choose which we'd prefer...
> ...



Oh I agree and this is obvious - just using this as an example as the 5ds is still a very recent camera in the scheme of things. 

And yes, the waiting for a version 2 is possible, but I've waited long enough for something d800ish, so for me, the 5d4 will likely be suffice.


----------



## LoneRider (Apr 28, 2016)

dilbert said:


> LoneRider said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Yeah, but I want the ondie ADC for DR/IQ and DPAF/touchscreen for video, and the new AF/flicker are also bonuses. The 5D-iv is looking really promising. The only nit so far is the 7FPS, and I doubt that will be a deal killer. But again, we are getting all hot and bothered over nothing bit rumoUrs.



dilbert said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



To repeat myself, considering the feature list and quality of the 80D, it leads me to believe the 7D-ii is not going to last on the shelves that long. But, I completely agree with the Scott Adams fan on this one!


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## ahsanford (Apr 28, 2016)

LoneRider said:


> I wonder if they will pull the same trick, strangle the mirror to 7 FPS, but allow live view to pop off frames at 8 to 10 FPS??



The mirror setup is part of it, sure, but as we discussed earlier, only 1 DIGIC chip (best guestimates and all) will cap the throughput so that 10 fps x 24 MP likely wouldn't be possible, unless it's a staggeringly powerful new chip that defies most expectations.

I still don't get how a 5D4 simply cannot have two chips for any reason other than capping FPS for market segmentation reasons (i.e. deliberately nerfing fps to protect sales of other items). I appreciate it looks like I'm begging for special treatment with the 5D4, but hell, *I* don't need 8, 9, 10 fps. I just think the 5D4 is worthy of the same 'stills throughput horsepower' the 7D2 and 5DS gets. 

- A


----------



## tpatana (Apr 28, 2016)

unfocused said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > Freddie said:
> ...



Not sure if it's a bug, but that's how my 1DX also works.


----------



## E.Mitsch (Apr 28, 2016)

unfocused said:


> LoneRider said:
> 
> 
> > Think about it, if Canon where to pull off, by the end of 2017
> ...



Hi everybody, I'm new here. I looked nearly about 1 year always at the Canon-Rumors site to get all the new informations for new stuff.
I'm a Photographer from Germany.
After I've read the post which is included here I thought I must Register and write also my thoughts/comments.

Do you really think that they will bring out the 5DMk4 with ~28MP and then the 6DMk2 with ~36MP???
I work at the Moment with the 5DMk2 and wait since nearly 1 year to get a new camera. The 5DS/r I think ist a bit too much 'cause I do mostly People and weddings. So I hoped on the MK4 with something about 30MP.
But if they will do the 6D wit hmore MP's than the next 5D I think I have to wait a bit longer. What do you all mean?? Wait longer or not?
http://www.fotodesignmitsch.de/
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=704047379652782&id=497324313658424&set=pr.497324313658424&source=42&refid=17


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## ahsanford (Apr 28, 2016)

LoneRider said:


> We might have to agree to disagree.
> 
> I think the 80D is far too close to the 7Dii for it to stand for another 3 or 4 years. They messed up on the 7Dii, without the touch screen, people like me stayed on the sidelines. The 7Dii needs to be a clear leader over the 80D, and it is not.



The 70D packed more MP, DPAF, a tilty-flippy touch screen than the 7D1, and Canon did not rush out something to 'put the XXD line in its place'. The 7D2 was a good 15 months behind the 70D, and you'll notice they left the tilty-flippy screen off of it. The XXD and 7D are for different users, IMHO, and that's why they are on different refresh timelines.



LoneRider said:


> Think about it, if Canon where to pull off, but the end of 2017
> 
> 
> 80D ....
> ...



_Love_ that list (especially that EOS-M offering), but I think it's wildly optimistic. For starters, the 5D gets rev'd on a 4-ish year timeline, so I see zero chance for a 5DS2 happening within two years of the first model.

My guess is the 3-6 month announce / hype / pre-order / launch window for the 5D4 would run through 4th quarter 2016 into early next year, and then we'd talk about the 6D2 in the spring. Rebels and perhaps an EOS-M update in the summer, and that'll do it for 2017. 

I would be stunned to see a 7D3 or next 5DS rig in 2017 unless -- reiterating my earlier comment -- Canon takes a nose dive in market share. Barring that, why on earth would they flood the market with so much high end gear? That's Sony's job. 

- A


----------



## arcer (Apr 28, 2016)

LoneRider said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > And the 7D line is historically on a glacial update timeframe, like 5 years. Don't expect a 7D3 anytime soon unless someone has hard, incontrovertible data that Canon has lost the amateur wildlife segment to the D500 (i.e. good luck with that). I see the 7D3 not arriving for a very long time --
> ...



The 7D3 coming out in Fall 2017 is quite opportunistic but not really that far from reality, Canon once said that it will release new cameras sooner than before when there's new and better technologies and the 80D have shown this. So I expect we might see it as soon as Fall 2017 or as late as Fall 2018 (a 4-year cycle). 

I think that Canon will meticulously investigate the current DPAF 24.2MP sensor on the 80D, find its flaws and improve upon it for release in the 7D3. Just like how they did it for the 7D2, where it has an improved 70D sensor. It will also get the newer AF system introduced by the 1DX2 which has multiple AF points to F8. 4K might also be introduced as the 7D series have been welcomed in the TV and cinema industry. Clean HDMI out as usual but no Cog yet .\ _ /.

However, I don't think Canon will have a good night sleep on the current situation of the 7D2, with the D500 and also the 80D being quite attractive to laymen. But that won't stop them from working slowly and making a working 7D3 at launch. (7D2 launch WAS awkward)

Meanwhile in the 6D camp, there was a rumor of upmarketing but I hope it doesn't mean high MP, I still want it to be the casual, good at everything camera that is the perfect travel cam that's lightweight and best in "Canon" lowlight performance.

Just my 2-cents.


----------



## Antono Refa (Apr 28, 2016)

noms78 said:


> If the 5D4 had a megapixel count of 28-34MP I would think that would be more future proof. 24MP is not high enough in this age of 4k displays (and televisions) and I believe 4k is really going to take off in the next two years. The initial jump from 22 to 28 is much more important than from 28-34, for example.



4K display has 8MP. How is three times that resolution not future proof?


----------



## arcer (Apr 28, 2016)

Hey guys, I read the whole discussion since it started but I only found time to reply now. But anyway.....

Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Rumored Specifications


•24.2MP Sensor
- A 2MP upgrade from 5D3 seems like a reasonable upgrade by Canon but 28MP requested by others seems reasonable also, so not much comment here. DPAF may or may not happen but clinging on it WILL happen. (Extra info: 5D2 21.1MP --> 5D3 22.3MP)

•61 AF Points (41 crosstype)
- Similar AF system from 5D3 but I guess this time it will borrow from the 1DX2 again, 61 AF Points (41 crosstype) and 61 AF points (21 crosstype) at f/8. So don't fret, a cool improvement also.

•DIGIC 7+ (Single)
- Absolute typo in my opinion, should be DIGIC 6+.

•7fps
- Improve from 6fps in 5D3, but honestly I think that 8fps (7.5fps) is much more appropriate.

•ISO 100-51,200 (expandable options)
- Remarked by a lot of friends here, ISO 100-51,200 native ISO ( with expandable options)

•3.2″ touchscreen LCD
- Borrow from 1DX2 again

•CFast/SD card slots
- CFast makes a lot of photogs angry but times is changing, so must we. First adopters will face the steep price but after less than a year, expect CFast to lower in price and become more common.

•Wifi built-in
- Sweet, remote shooting now more accessible

•GPS built-in
- Not sure if necessary, but why not?

•BG-E20 battery grip and LP-E20 battery
- Discussed widely but not elucidated by much. Don't fret on new battery. My evidence:
1DX2 introduced with new LP-E19 battery but still compatible with old LP-E4 series batteries. So.......
5D4 introduced with new LP-E20 battery but STILL COMPATBLE with older LP-E6 series batteries.
New battery introduced with new design and electronic architecture, maybe related with higher fps capability.

•Slight weight reduction
- Introduction of WiFi and GPS means shedding a bit of metal for better wireless connection.

Disclaimer: All above is my opinion only, based on evaluation of previous facts and current trends, and my own expectation. I have no connection with anyone in Canon Inc. If you don't like it, then don't. It's not a fact yet.


----------



## romanr74 (Apr 28, 2016)

Refurb7 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > We're saying Canon *would* protect losing _1DX II_ sales to a high fps 5D4.
> ...



I am just plain certain they do their homework to prevent cannibalization of higher end bodies through lower end product!


----------



## RGF (Apr 28, 2016)

sleepnever said:


> I really hope 24MP is not the final number. I was totally hoping for 28MP.



+1, 28 to 36 MP

BTW I wonder if Canon leaks these on purpose to see what we say :


----------



## arcer (Apr 28, 2016)

RGF said:


> sleepnever said:
> 
> 
> > I really hope 24MP is not the final number. I was totally hoping for 28MP.
> ...



Hopefully, but as I heard from the better posters here, core tech and specs should be concrete within the year of production and release. However, maybe Canon is leaking out the 24MP but releasing a 28MP to "surprise" us


----------



## Ryananthony (Apr 28, 2016)

unfocused said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > Freddie said:
> ...



The problem with that for me is when I'm shooting birds in flight, jumping from forested backgrounds to clear sky etc. I want to be able compensate exposure properly, and if I use aperture priority, I don't get to choose a minimum shutter speed that would work in flight, and even if it did, the problem would come when the bird lands. Shutter priority seems to work, but im left to shoot wide open. Or at least can't choose a constant aperture since it will jump a third of stop to help compensate with the auto iso. I've heard arguments plenty of times that "your in manual, so shoot in manual. Theres no need for compensation" I strongly disagree. Shutter speed and aperture effect the look of my image. I want my iso to be as low as possible, and changing my iso isn't as fast as the cameras metering. 

A work around that seems to be working best for me is when shooting in manual with auto iso, I've programed the "set" button to change iso when held and the dial is rotated. Unfortunately, when finished, and setting my iso back to auto I can't use the "set" button and rotate all the way to down to auto iso like I can when I push the iso button. This leaves me using both ways to change iso.


----------



## Sator (Apr 28, 2016)

A bit late to chime in but I would be a little concerned about the 24MP sensor spec, as I was considering at least taking a look at the 5DIV to supplement my 5DsR (someone please tell Andreas over at SAR that I am principally a Canon shooter please...he keeps referring to me in his rants as a "Fuji shooter"...LOL). Resolution isn't everything, but a 24MP sensor would have to bring a lot of other performance capacity for it to remain competitive (ISO, DR, dual-pixel AF) for the next four years.

By the end of the four year product cycle M4/3 cameras will have reached or exceeded the 24MP resolution barrier. They are already at 20MP now. APS-C models from Pentax, Fuji and Sony already have 24MP sensors in them, and in another three to four years they will probably have around 36MP resolution APS-C sensors. 

Also of interest is the fact that Canon use the same metal body for all 5D series cameras to reduce production costs. That means that not too long after the 5DIV, we will probably see an early update to the 5Ds with a Mark II. I wonder if they will bump up the resolution (on the roadmap to increasing resolution to 120MP in the next 3-4 years) or keep it the same to improve other performance parameters.


----------



## wockawocka (Apr 28, 2016)

CFast and SD card slots.

Please be UHSii, please be UHSii, please be UHSii.


----------



## tron (Apr 28, 2016)

arcer said:


> RGF said:
> 
> 
> > sleepnever said:
> ...


Or keeping it to 24MP to make it as good as possible for high iso


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 28, 2016)

tpatana said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > tpatana said:
> ...



The 1D X can apply exposure compensation in M mode with Auto ISO, it was added with the v2 firmware update. The 5DIII doesn't have that feature. I'm sure the 5DIV will.


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## scyrene (Apr 28, 2016)

dilbert said:


> 99% of Canon owners will keep buying Canon but if you are coming into DSLR photography with a clean slate and want to get into wildlife/bird shooting, do you buy the 7D2 or D500? The problem for Canon is that next to the D500, the 7D2 has a limited value proposition and ability to grow Canon's userbase.



If I were recommending a camera out of the two to a newbie, I might well say the D500 (I don't honestly know enough about either model to be sure though). But a couple of things. First, how many people start out in DSLR photography with a camera at the level of a 7D2 or D500? I doubt there's any hard figures on it, but I'd expect more people start at the low end - either buying secondhand (say a 7D) or getting a recent beginners' model, like the 750D (when people ask me to recommend a DSLR to them, their budgets are often surprisingly low by my standards, but then my approach to photography is not most people's, and I'm sure the same is true for most people on this forum). The D500/7D2 are surely more for people upgrading. Second, the D500 is currently 1.5x more expensive (here in the UK at least) than the 7D2. Never underestimate the importance of price, especially for people just starting out. The D500 will become cheaper after a few months of course, but the 7D2 will probably cost even less by then too.


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 28, 2016)

Dutch_Snapper said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...


Please dont take DxO scores seriously they have a very flawed way of testing equipment.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Apr 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > The problem for Canon is that next to the D500, the 7D2 has a limited value proposition
> ...


As others have noted the issue for Canon is not the D500 which on paper actually seems like a decent camera but the EOS 80D which will split the choice of many users because of the newer sensor, touch screen and partial weather sealing narrowing the gap. Between the Nikon D500 and the EOS 80D the 7D MKII may well be refreshed faster than many think.


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## j-nord (Apr 28, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



One can hope that we see a 7DIII sooner rather than later but we know the 5DIV and 6DII are coming first. Id be fine with a 7Ds type upgrade where all they really do is upgrade the sensor. I can't bring myself to pick up a 7DII knowing I'd be unhappy with ISO performance at around 3200, where Id use it most.


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## tiger82 (Apr 28, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> 4K display has 8MP. How is three times that resolution not future proof?



8K is 32MP, it's the math


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## Rick (Apr 28, 2016)

I doubt Canon is stupid enough to release a general purpose pro camera with less than 36 MPs since Nikon, Sony and Pentax are all at or above that number.


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## slclick (Apr 28, 2016)

Rick said:


> I doubt Canon is stupid enough to release a general purpose pro camera with less than 36 MPs since Nikon, Sony and Pentax are all at or above that number.



Let's hope they are not stupid enough to release a ~$3500 camera with poor high iso noise ratio due to the need to keep up with the Jonses and MP


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## scyrene (Apr 28, 2016)

tron said:


> arcer said:
> 
> 
> > RGF said:
> ...



Well if you downsample - i.e. view or print at a standard size (without cropping), it won't harm you.


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## scyrene (Apr 28, 2016)

Rick said:


> I doubt Canon is stupid enough to release a general purpose pro camera with less than 36 MPs since Nikon, Sony and Pentax are all at or above that number.



Um, Canon has the highest MP FF DSLR of any manufacturer at present. The top of the line from Nikon and Canon are both 20MP. And plenty of professionals here complain about 'too high' MP counts. So... you're talking out of a place that isn't your mouth.

(I'm one of the proponents of higher MP counts in general - or at least that they are not the bad thing some people say. But to claim the 5D4 would be 'stupid' if it were lower than 36MP is... stupid).


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## millsrg1 (Apr 28, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt Canon is stupid enough to release a general purpose pro camera with less than 36 MPs since Nikon, Sony and Pentax are all at or above that number.
> ...



I think you're way off here. I'm no pro but a simple look at the Nikon website shows the D810 at 36.6 MP and the D750 and D610 both at 24.3 - both are FX sensors.


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## romanr74 (Apr 28, 2016)

millsrg1 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Rick said:
> ...



Hence what?


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## Maximilian (Apr 28, 2016)

Rick said:


> I doubt Canon is stupid enough to release a general purpose pro camera with less than 36 MPs since Nikon, Sony and Pentax are all at or above that number.


Funny, that I would think exactly the other way 'round and would call everything above 30 MP "special purpose".
And it seems that I am not the only one and surely a lot of those are not in the Canon camp.

So maybe you should start asking *Nikon* why they made a 750D or *Sony* about their a7 II (both at 24,3 MP).
Or even better: ask the wedding guys, the general photo journalist, the "allrounder" photographer, what MP count they'd prefer. I suppose those three companies (C/N/S) already did it and their R&D departments did response to the "_general purpose pro camera_" market. 

But of course a forum member knows much more about the general photo market than the dedicated companies.

_Edit: Maybe you could think about redefining your needs and wants from beeing "general purpose"?_


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## romanr74 (Apr 28, 2016)

Maximilian said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt Canon is stupid enough to release a general purpose pro camera with less than 36 MPs since Nikon, Sony and Pentax are all at or above that number.
> ...



+1


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## ahsanford (Apr 28, 2016)

Ryananthony said:


> The problem with that for me is when I'm shooting birds in flight, jumping from forested backgrounds to clear sky etc. I want to be able compensate exposure properly, and if I use aperture priority, I don't get to choose a minimum shutter speed that would work in flight, and even if it did, the problem would come when the bird lands. Shutter priority seems to work, but im left to shoot wide open. Or at least can't choose a constant aperture since it will jump a third of stop to help compensate with the auto iso. I've heard arguments plenty of times that "your in manual, so shoot in manual. Theres no need for compensation" I strongly disagree. Shutter speed and aperture effect the look of my image. I want my iso to be as low as possible, and changing my iso isn't as fast as the cameras metering.



I've run into this a few times with my niece's Tae Kwan Do events. It's admittedly not birding, but it's has elements of speed, unpredictability, and in the case of her dojo/dojang, the lighting is batsh-- crazy with a lot of searing bright light at times and murky dark gymnasium-like light in others (all in the same main hall!). 

I love auto-ISO with aperture-priority, but I could see how the limited spread of minimum shutter speed options would punish you for birding. I've long wondered why you can't choose anything faster with auto ISO than 1/250s (at least on my 5D3). You should be able to input whatever you need there, which I think they expanded options for with the 5DS but did not completely rectify. Just give us a field to input a number and obsessives about 1/(focal length) would be set for any lens and specialized high speed needs would be completely covered.

- A


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## Maiaibing (Apr 28, 2016)

LoneRider said:


> 5DS-ii ~50MP, 6'ish FPS, 4K-30fps video, GPS, WIFI, touch screen?, flicker



5DS/R has anti-flicker. 

5DS/RII should have 65-70 MPIX. I can wait 4 years for that. Next stop 100 MPIX with the 5DS/RIII.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 28, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



As others have noted, the same was true for the 7D and the 70D. I don't think the 80D is a major concern for Canon as far as 7DII sales go, either way they make money. 

But I do think those who are making guesses on 7DIII timing based on just two other data points have little basis for those guesses.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 28, 2016)

millsrg1 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Rick said:
> ...



Huh? Did your simple look happen to see the D5 on Nikon's website? Or do you not understand what 'top of the line' means? Heard of the 1D X II?


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## Antono Refa (Apr 28, 2016)

tiger82 said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > 4K display has 8MP. How is three times that resolution not future proof?
> ...



A. So future proofing "in this age of *4K displays*" (kind of you to drop the quote) is 8K? In this age, 4K hasn't come anywhere near 100% penetration, I wouldn't bet on the future popularity of 8K.

B. Those 4K and 8K screens will be used for two things: video editing (= small target audience), and watching movies (= very large screens, intended to be watched from a distance). I wouldn't bet on either of those being oft used to watch photos.

C. To get pixel sharp photos at 32MP, people would have to buy top of the line lenses and use pro techniques to stabilize the cameras, such as tripods. That is not what the average Joe is going to do. The average Joe will use a 5.5" phone (as Apple has recently discovered), bottom of the line lenses, such as EF-S kit lenses, etc, and wouldn't care less how his photos look on anything better than FHD resolution.


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## tron (Apr 28, 2016)

millsrg1 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Rick said:
> ...


And a simple look at Canon site shows 5DS(R) at 50Mp, 5D3 at 22Mp, 6D at 20MP.
So I believe all of you that simply ignore the 50MP FF camera are ... off. Let's don't forget that the next Nikon will be 42MP if they use Sony's new sensor. This is close to Canon's 50MP.


----------



## Eersel (Apr 28, 2016)

arcer said:


> Hey guys, I read the whole discussion since it started but I only found time to reply now. But anyway.....
> 
> Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Rumored Specifications
> 
> ...



+1 On this

Again, I'd lose the GPS just to take the cost and put it in savings for the customer.


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## ahsanford (Apr 28, 2016)

tron said:


> [87 quotes purged in the name of brevity, justice and freedom for all]
> 
> And a simple look at Canon site shows 5DS(R) at 50Mp, 5D3 at 22Mp, 6D at 20MP.
> So I believe all of you that simply ignore the 50MP FF camera are ... off. Let's don't forget that the next Nikon will be 42MP if they use Sony's new sensor. This is close to Canon's 50MP.



If enthusiasts ran the product pipeline at Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. I could see how people would be so bent out of shape about MP. "The more money you pay, the better camera you get, _and that means it has more MP!_" They'd offer an FF slate of cameras that were lower priced at 24 MP, mid-level priced at 36 MP and high-priced at 48 MP. [rubs hands together] Job done.

It's also total rubbish. Enthusiasts don't run product pipelines for a reason. They cannot gather that some people would gladly pay _more_ money for something _other_ than detail -- things like more powerful AF or metering systems, high burst rates and massive buffers, much better high ISO performance, 400k rated shutters, better build quality, etc.

I simply see Canon bifurcating the 5D line into two streams a la the 1Ds and 1D lines of years past. The 5DS is 'the detail line' for studio/landscape guys, and the 5D3/5D4 is the great 'all-arounder' out-in-the-field/events/handheld rig. One gets detail, the other gets frame rate and (likely) better high ISO. Easy peasy.

(The bigger question is why that same market split isn't offered to people with $7k burning a hole in their pockets. Where the hell is the high MP detail line for the 1D brand?!)

- A


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## reef58 (Apr 28, 2016)

This cry for MP's reminds me of the $200 700x telescope advertisement you see often.


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## pierlux (Apr 28, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> millsrg1 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



I think millsrg1's post is fitting better as a comment to Rick's statement, not scyrene's one.



tron said:


> millsrg1 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Same here. Hey millsrg1, pay attention quoting posts, this forum is ruthless! ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 28, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt Canon is stupid enough to release a general purpose pro camera with less than 36 MPs since Nikon, Sony and Pentax are all at or above that number.
> ...



In the context of 36 MP being too high, a couple of friends who are wedding photographers were looking to replace their aging Nikon D700's at the time the D800 came out (before the 24 MP options), and they were advised to just replace with the same D700 model rather than getting a D800. That advice came from Nikon Professional Services.


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## Maiaibing (Apr 28, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> C. To get pixel sharp photos at 32MP, people would have to buy top of the line lenses and use pro techniques to stabilize the cameras, such as tripods. That is not what the average Joe is going to do. The average Joe will use a 5.5" phone (as Apple has recently discovered), bottom of the line lenses, such as EF-S kit lenses, etc, and wouldn't care less how his photos look on anything better than FHD resolution.



Such nonsense.

1) Every single lens you have performs _better _with more megapixels available. Try a 5DS/R one day.

2) You do not have to _anything _to stabilize your 32 MPIX camera compared to a 24 MPIX camera (or my 50 MPIX 5DSR or my coming 5DSRIII with 100 MPIX). This is such a wide spread myth and misunderstanding. When Joe views his results on print or on screen the 32 MPIX picture he took will look _exactly _as sharp as the same picture he took using a 24 MPIX camera (everything else equal). _Exactly._. However Joe has the _option_ of one day learning to use pro techniques and gaining _more _image sharpness with a 32 MPIX camera he can ever achieve with a 24 MPIX camera.

Its the same misunderstanding as when people think you have to resample a 5DSR picture to get better high ISO than from a 5D3. You _do not have to do anything at all_. Zilch. Zero. Just print or open up your smugmug page and you will enjoy the improved high iso from the 5DSR over the 5D3. As simple as that.

You are confusing 100% test shots with real life viewing of pictures. The results Joe - and everyone else in the world for that matter - enjoys looking at and sharing. Resampling is something we do for tests only. It provides the visual confirmation that the 5DSR will give you better high iso results than the 5D3.


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## Refurb7 (Apr 28, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > C. To get pixel sharp photos at 32MP, people would have to buy top of the line lenses and use pro techniques to stabilize the cameras, such as tripods. That is not what the average Joe is going to do. The average Joe will use a 5.5" phone (as Apple has recently discovered), bottom of the line lenses, such as EF-S kit lenses, etc, and wouldn't care less how his photos look on anything better than FHD resolution.
> ...



I agree 100%. Cameras shake the same in your hands regardless of how many megapixels they have. No one had to change their stabilization technique going from 4mp to 10mp, or from 10mp to 21mp. Likewise, no reason to change it for 32mp or 50mp. Resolution doesn't matter to degree of shakiness. Pixels always record the same degree of shake within the picture area.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 28, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > C. To get pixel sharp photos at 32MP, people would have to buy top of the line lenses and use pro techniques to stabilize the cameras, such as tripods. That is not what the average Joe is going to do. The average Joe will use a 5.5" phone (as Apple has recently discovered), bottom of the line lenses, such as EF-S kit lenses, etc, and wouldn't care less how his photos look on anything better than FHD resolution.
> ...



Well, that's a relief. I thought when Canon hit 100 MP, I'd have to trade in my RRS tripod for a KSI 'quadpod':







Hard to fit that sucker and the N2 tank to float it into my backpack, y'know?


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Apr 28, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> tiger82 said:
> 
> 
> > Antono Refa said:
> ...



A. the HDTV industry plans to make practically every non-total budget set 4k, ultra wide gamut and HDR within a couple years. SOme photo people already are using >4k displays.

B. Nobody would use them for photo viewing??? People are using 4k screens for photo viewing right now and it's a huge difference! Instead of everything look all digital, photos on screen finally have some of the feel of a print or slide. My 4k monitor is maybe the best photo related purchase I made in years. And I thirst for an 8k display one day.

C. You are going a little overboard on what it takes to get a decent 32MP shot. Sure some can't tell VHS from UHD blu-ray or don't care but that isn't the serious photo person, none of those people will buy any of this Nikon/Sony/Canon stuff or a photo monitor or anything anyway.

PLUS - many are forgetting one of the greatest reasons for more MP and that is REACH. That is great for sports and fantastic for wildlife. (It also doesn't hurt to get a bit more cropping freedom in post for landscape stuff or truly wildly detailed 19"+ prints.)

That said, especially since the camera isn't the single best for sports/wildlife hah, it's really the DR and over-sampled 4k video even more than the MP count (although that is nice and does help at times compared to 5D3) on A7R II that has been nicest for me.


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## Tiderace (Apr 28, 2016)

Re thirsting for 8K display would require a giant screen folks. Human beings cannot see the difference between a 4K and HD until the screen is a 72 inch screen. So to have an 8K screen one's home would have to be totally HUGE!!!! So the real changes coming that make a difference in video and photography is dynamic range and noise reduction. HDR for video and better low light photography without blowing out the highlights.


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## Antono Refa (Apr 28, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > C. To get pixel sharp photos at 32MP, people would have to buy top of the line lenses and use pro techniques to stabilize the cameras, such as tripods. That is not what the average Joe is going to do. The average Joe will use a 5.5" phone (as Apple has recently discovered), bottom of the line lenses, such as EF-S kit lenses, etc, and wouldn't care less how his photos look on anything better than FHD resolution.
> ...



Thanks for giving a warning.



Maiaibing said:


> 1) Every single lens you have performs _better_ with more megapixels available. Try a 5DS/R one day.



That it performs better does NOT mean it would be pixel sharp at 32MP, which is what it needs to be to justify the photo being displayed on 32MP screen.



Maiaibing said:


> 2) You do not have to _anything_to stabilize your 32 MPIX camera compared to a 24 MPIX camera



You do need it if you want the photo to look pixel sharp on a 32MP screen.



Maiaibing said:


> When Joe views his results on print or on screen the 32 MPIX picture he took will look _exactly _as sharp as the same picture he took using a 24 MPIX camera (everything else equal).



Exactly - on a 32MP screen, it would look like over sampled 24MP photo, which is blurry.



Maiaibing said:


> _Exactly._. However Joe has the _option_ of one day learning to use pro techniques and gaining _more _image sharpness with a 32 MPIX camera he can ever achieve with a 24 MPIX camera.



The question was not about whether Joe would have an option. The question was whether his photos would look good on a 32MP screen, and the answer is they wouldn't until such time as he actually learned to use pro techniques. Which in most cases be never.


----------



## Antono Refa (Apr 28, 2016)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > tiger82 said:
> ...



And some would be how many, in percents?

I don't know anyone who has a 4K display.



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> C. You are going a little overboard on what it takes to get a decent 32MP shot. Sure some can't tell VHS from UHD blu-ray or don't care but that isn't the serious photo person, none of those people will buy any of this Nikon/Sony/Canon stuff or a photo monitor or anything anyway.



My point is that most people aren't serious photo persons. Actually, people who have cameras with higher than 24MP are a minority among pro photographers.




LetTheRightLensIn said:


> PLUS - many are forgetting one of the greatest reasons for more MP and that is REACH.



The original point was that to future proof photos, that is to make them look good when everybody and his sister would have 8K displays, one would have to buy 32MP and over cameras.

The more you crop from a 36MP photo, the worse it would look on those 8K screens. You want to crop for reach and have sharp 32MP photo? Then future proofing requires you to buy a 5DS/R and even sharper lenses, or maybe a medium format camera.

If you think that's going to be mainstream, you need to switch your dealer.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 28, 2016)

Maybe Joe should just stick with the good ol' stuff.


----------



## tpatana (Apr 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Maybe Joe should just stick with the good ol' stuff.



Another forum, someone told that his parents said the picture quality didn't improve when they bought FHD tv to replace their old tube.

Another person there commented that it's because Matlock wasn't shot in FHD


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 28, 2016)




----------



## scyrene (Apr 29, 2016)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> A. the HDTV industry plans to make practically every non-total budget set 4k, ultra wide gamut and HDR within a couple years. SOme photo people already are using >4k displays.



They may well do. The tv manufacturers need people to keep buying tvs. So they need consumers to believe that their current model is obsolete for whatever reason. Will 4K become the norm? Probably. Will 8K? Who knows? Look how 3D tv panned out. Incidentally, how many people are currently using displays over 4k? A vanishingly small percentage, I'd imagine.



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> B. Nobody would use them for photo viewing??? People are using 4k screens for photo viewing right now and it's a huge difference! Instead of everything look all digital, photos on screen finally have some of the feel of a print or slide. My 4k monitor is maybe the best photo related purchase I made in years. And I thirst for an 8k display one day.



Again, *how many* are doing that? A few, but many? A lot? Probably not, at least yet. I personally want high res displays for editing. But how many consumers - even those with DSLRs - do much editing, and how many of those are pixel peepers, who'd benefit most from this?



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> PLUS - many are forgetting one of the greatest reasons for more MP and that is REACH. That is great for sports and fantastic for wildlife. (It also doesn't hurt to get a bit more cropping freedom in post for landscape stuff or truly wildly detailed 19"+ prints.)



I totally agree with this. For me, reach is the number one reason my next camera will be a 5Ds. Too few people take cropping into account - but then, I suppose most people don't crop most shots very much, if at all.


----------



## scyrene (Apr 29, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Antono Refa said:
> ...



To be fair to you, you did say 'pixel sharp', so although Maiaibing's comments are true generally, they don't apply to your specific objection. To get pixel sharp (i.e. 100% magnification) images at higher res, you do indeed need faster shutter speeds, ceteris paribus. Although it's not a deal breaker - the 7DII has a similar pixel pitch to the 5Ds and people manage to get sharp images with it.


----------



## doog (Apr 29, 2016)

Phones are 4K in my neighborhood- vid camera and display. My BenQ monitor is 4K, although I wish it were 16:10 instead of TV aspect ratio.
I accumulate high-end glass at a rate slightly faster than Canon can rebrand and market it. So yeah, I'm all in for latest-greatest in video, but none of this pixel-racing discussion seems relevant to stills image-capture. Many readers and writers here understand the complexities of that (stills) subject. I've talked myself out of immediately jumping on the 1DxII, but pixel-density ("reach") sure isn't why.


----------



## gregory4000 (Apr 29, 2016)

tron said:


> millsrg1 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



I agree, I think Canon will release the best that their able too. The question is that will it loose its lead to companies like Sony who is trying hard to chip into their market share. Sony will be releasing a pro camera later this year.
This camera will have a 70+ mega pixel sensor, zero buffering "zero" ( yet I doubt it will shoot any faster than five FPS). larger than the A7 series yet a little smaller than a DSLR and high ISO's and best part...15 stops of DR. With companies like this who are quickly innovating with interesting products, I predict two things will happen. One, cameras will increase their mega pixel size to keep up. And legendary companies like Nikon and Canon will have to upgrade their devices more often. A lot of changes can occur in 4 years. enough to make your device "seem" out dated.


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## MrToes (Apr 29, 2016)

A whole lot of people bought into Canon during the 5D2 era because they could get cinematic quality video and awesome stills in one body... (Be they pros or hobby shooters) And now they still want the best. 30+MP, 4K, touch screen, zebras, edge to edge AF, WiFi, etc would get that done. No harm in wanting the best of both worlds in a body,... Especially if you already own Canon glass. 
[/quote]

I would love it all also! Waiting.......


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## Antono Refa (Apr 29, 2016)

scyrene said:


> To be fair to you, you did say 'pixel sharp', so although Maiaibing's comments are true generally, they don't apply to your specific objection. To get pixel sharp (i.e. 100% magnification) images at higher res, you do indeed need faster shutter speeds, ceteris paribus. Although it's not a deal breaker - the 7DII has a similar pixel pitch to the 5Ds and people manage to get sharp images with it.



It's the original poster who said >30MP are needed to future proof the photos for the day everyone would watch their photos on 8K screens.

My objection is that claim is equivalent to saying people would pixel peep all their photos all the time, hence pixel sharp photos would be the norm.

I'm sure people do get sharp photos from the 7DmkII. I doubt those people pixel peep every single photo they take and say 'oh damn, this one isn't sharp enough for the 6K display I'll buy in 5 years, off to the trash bin with it'.


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## romanr74 (Apr 29, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> tiger82 said:
> 
> 
> > Antono Refa said:
> ...



How on earth can a pixel not be sharp? It has no way of expressing sharpness whatsoever...


----------



## glness (Apr 29, 2016)

Why would you need a CFast slot at 24mp and 7fps?


----------



## romanr74 (Apr 29, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Antono Refa said:
> ...



I think the term "pro techniques" is misleading, but your argument holds true for photos on whatever screen. 99.9+% of photos taken don't look good on any display... So what was the point exactly?


----------



## davidj (Apr 29, 2016)

glness said:


> Why would you need a CFast slot at 24mp and 7fps?



4K video.


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## cesjr86 (Apr 29, 2016)

Lets all agree to say no to dual yet different card slots! CFast makes sense CFast + SD doesn't. Same with CFast + CF. If you can afford to spend $3200/$6000 on your camera you can afford to upgrade your cards to a significantly better one.


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## davidj (Apr 29, 2016)

cesjr86 said:


> Lets all agree to say no to dual yet different card slots! CFast makes sense CFast + SD doesn't. Same with CFast + CF. If you can afford to spend $3200/$6000 on your camera you can afford to upgrade your cards to a significantly better one.



As sympathetic as I am to that view, you probably should have told Canon before they made they 1D X II.


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## Ph0t0 (Apr 29, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> The question was not about whether Joe would have an option. The question was whether his photos would look good on a 32MP screen, and the answer is they wouldn't until such time as he actually learned to use pro techniques. Which in most cases be never.



Woow you actually think that most people that are going to buy 5D Mk IV have no idea about photography techniques and that shooting with a bit faster shutter speeds is something that only the select few can learn?
Wow.


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## GMCPhotographics (Apr 29, 2016)

If it's got the same AF module and set up as the 5DSR and 1DX, and not the cut down version from the 5DIII (ai servo is quite poor on the 5DIII compared to the 1Dx due to a lack of colour tracking and face tracking). If it's got the same DR and low iso invariance that the 1Dx II is supposed to have...and maybe another stop or so of clean iso ability. Then it could be considered a warm over. It's a pity that there's not 28mp or 8 fps...in fact the fps is more disappointing. 
The touch screen rear LCD would be welcome and a step forwards in ergonomics...although i don't fancy cleaning my fingerprints off every time I gimp a photo.


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## robinlee (Apr 29, 2016)

Some excellent replies here, but I like to add this; "Significant increment on BUFFER rate!!"


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## Antono Refa (Apr 29, 2016)

Ph0t0 said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > The question was not about whether Joe would have an option. The question was whether his photos would look good on a 32MP screen, and the answer is they wouldn't until such time as he actually learned to use pro techniques. Which in most cases be never.
> ...



A. The discussion is not about people who buy a 5DmkIV. The discussion is about everybody who would have a TV, which in a few years would be, supposedly, at least 8K.

B. Yes, light is so strong always and everywhere, that you can shoot with low ISO with whichever f-stop and shutter speed you'd like. Just a matter of getting the shutter speed low enough.


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## zim (Apr 29, 2016)

robinlee said:


> Some excellent replies here, but I like to add this; "Significant increment on BUFFER rate!!"



If it does end up 7fps maybe this will be why?


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## glness (Apr 29, 2016)

davidj said:


> glness said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you need a CFast slot at 24mp and 7fps?
> ...



I don't use video much, but there are a lot of cameras doing 4K with SD cards, so I still don't get the need for CFast if this rumor has any truth. Maybe the actual specifications when released will justify the need for this.


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## Ph0t0 (Apr 29, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> Ph0t0 said:
> 
> 
> > Antono Refa said:
> ...



A. Sorry. What? So the viewer has to learn "pro" techniques?
When you wrote:" The question was whether his photos would look good on a 32MP screen, and the answer is they wouldn't until such time as he actually learned to use pro techniques. Which in most cases be never." I somehow assumed that you were talking about the photographer using the new 5D with higher resolution sensor.

B. So apparently people in your world are always shooting handheld just on the edge of acceptable shutter speed that still makes their photos sharp. Also pushing ISO 2/3 of a stop is unheard-of.

I'm not saying that there are no occasions where this is the case and you can't use a tripod and you don't want to increase your ISO, but even in those cases if you get a bit blurry photos, you are still no worse off than when shooting the same scene with a lower MP camera.


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## davidj (Apr 29, 2016)

glness said:


> davidj said:
> 
> 
> > glness said:
> ...



I'm no expert on this, but not all 4K is made equal. Could SD/CF cards handle the 800Mbit/s footage the 1D X II creates doing 4K 60p? Or 500Mbit/s for 4K 24p? I guess the alternative is that Canon thinks CFast is the way of the future, and now is as good a time to switch as any.


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## dreyth (Apr 29, 2016)

Some CF cards can certainly handle 4k at 24/30fps, but I'm not so sure about 4k at 60fps. Upgrading to CFast makes sense to me when it comes to sustained 4k 60fps video shooting.


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## pedro (Apr 29, 2016)

*Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV forseeable IQ at ISO 51k*

Hi

Based on the advanced sensor tech and a decent increade in MP, what do you think:
Will these alleged 51k ISO look more like 25k on the 5D3 or is there a slight chance that they might look even more like 12.8 K on the 5D3. 12.8 on my current 6D look pretty decent. Had a 5D3 before...


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## tpatana (Apr 29, 2016)

cesjr86 said:


> Lets all agree to say no to dual yet different card slots! CFast makes sense CFast + SD doesn't. Same with CFast + CF. If you can afford to spend $3200/$6000 on your camera you can afford to upgrade your cards to a significantly better one.



I've so many times told here that being able to skip eating for couple months and buying awesome camera, doesn't mean you want to shell out some $300-$500 for new memory cards.


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## slclick (Apr 29, 2016)

tpatana said:


> cesjr86 said:
> 
> 
> > Lets all agree to say no to dual yet different card slots! CFast makes sense CFast + SD doesn't. Same with CFast + CF. If you can afford to spend $3200/$6000 on your camera you can afford to upgrade your cards to a significantly better one.
> ...



Seems like many of the CR1 rumors contradict themselves with Card types vs frame rates and video specs. If I had my druthers, It would be CF-CF. SD is flimsy and disposable, CFast is unnecessary for what this model will shoot and CF is proven and solid, not to mention affordable and usually we all own a grundle of them.


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## amellice (Apr 29, 2016)

I feel really disappointed. After all this waiting and just 2 MP increase? I mean seriously! I'm not pixel peep but that's just silly. 1 fps increase from Mk III! what a joke. I'm a Canon shooter and I love my camera but looks like Canon is seriously lagging behind specially with the 3000$ + price range that this camera will be.


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## romanr74 (Apr 29, 2016)

tpatana said:


> cesjr86 said:
> 
> 
> > Lets all agree to say no to dual yet different card slots! CFast makes sense CFast + SD doesn't. Same with CFast + CF. If you can afford to spend $3200/$6000 on your camera you can afford to upgrade your cards to a significantly better one.
> ...



This is silly. A semi-pro cam goes with semi-pro/pro glass. How could you go down that route but not be able to afford 300-500 bucks for cards? And why would I have to compromise because of that...


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## romanr74 (Apr 29, 2016)

amellice said:


> I feel really disappointed. After all this waiting and just 2 MP increase? I mean seriously! I'm not pixel peep but that's just silly. 1 fps increase from Mk III! what a joke. I'm a Canon shooter and I love my camera but looks like Canon is seriously lagging behind specially with the 3000$ + price range that this camera will be.



Behind what?


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## FilipOk (Apr 29, 2016)

I sold my 5D mkIII about a year ago and bought innovative Sony A7 because small size and weight, EVF, IBIS and articulated screen are very suitable for my amateur needs. And yes, Sony's sensor performs noticeably better .
And now looking at the specs I'm asking, where is the progress, Canon? I shot Canon 5D cameras about 5 years starting from mk I. Mk II was really big step forward - really fantastic camera for its time. Mk III brought modern autofocus. It was single but really needed feature to update. But what is the reason for update to mkIV for Canon shooters now?

+ 2 Mp
touchscreen
built-in Wifi & GPS
Is it really all 4 years progress? Canon, I'm very disapointed!


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## romanr74 (Apr 29, 2016)

FilipOk said:


> I sold my 5D mkIII about a year ago and bought innovative Sony A7 because small size and weight, EVF, IBIS and articulated screen are very suitable for my amateur needs. And yes, Sony's sensor performs noticeably better .
> And now looking at the specs I'm asking, where is the progress, Canon? I shot Canon 5D cameras about 5 years starting from mk I. Mk II was really big step forward - really fantastic camera for its time. Mk III brought modern autofocus. It was single but really needed feature to update. But what is the reason for update to mkIV for Canon shooters now?
> 
> + 2 Mp
> ...



How are you disapointed when you shoot Sony?


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## jmoya (Apr 29, 2016)

I'm just hoping for more DR. Nikon and Sony kill Canon on this. MP is not that important to me and many others. I start getting noise from 100iso images by only pushing 1.5 stops in lightroom from RAW photos on my 5d mark III's. Unacceptable Canon!!!! I just can't give up all my L lenses. Looks like I may have to wait for the 6d mark II.


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## FilipOk (Apr 29, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> FilipOk said:
> 
> 
> > I sold my 5D mkIII about a year ago and bought innovative Sony A7 because small size and weight, EVF, IBIS and articulated screen are very suitable for my amateur needs. And yes, Sony's sensor performs noticeably better .
> ...


Yes, I shoot Sony, but I'm not sonyboy  I would be glad to have really innovative camera from Canon. I used both Canon and Sony systems about a year before my final decision to sell Canon. Now I see how evolves Sony's technology. I'm waiting really new products for FE system. And what is going on on Canon market? NOTHING!!!


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## LoneRider (Apr 29, 2016)

FilipOk said:


> Yes, I shoot Sony, but I'm not sonyboy  I would be glad to have really innovative camera from Canon. I used both Canon and Sony systems about a year before my final decision to sell Canon. Now I see how evolves Sony's technology. I'm waiting really new products for FE system. And what is going on on Canon market? NOTHING!!!



Hmmm, maybe I am overly optimistic, but I am thinking the 80D and 1DX-ii are pretty darn good. I would hardly call them NOTHING.

And sadly, I am feeding your troll. To all others I apologize. Hmm, and I bet the 80D or 1DX-ii won't overheat .......


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## Refurb7 (Apr 29, 2016)

jmoya said:


> I'm just hoping for more DR. Nikon and Sony kill Canon on this. MP is not that important to me and many others. I start getting noise from 100iso images by only pushing 1.5 stops in lightroom from RAW photos on my 5d mark III's. Unacceptable Canon!!!! I just can't give up all my L lenses. Looks like I may have to wait for the 6d mark II.



You must be doing something wrong. I've been shooting Canon for some 15 years and never have this problem.


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## tpatana (Apr 29, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > cesjr86 said:
> ...


So any camera model, you are ok for 10% price increase?

If you can already afford the one you're planning to buy, surely you can afford 10% increase.

That's how it sounds to me, and I don't like it.


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## Refurb7 (Apr 29, 2016)

FilipOk said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > FilipOk said:
> ...



I bought the innovative Sony A72. I struggled with it for a while but ultimately couldn't stand it because it: 
- had very slow focus in low light (if it could focus at all); I was missing moments constantly and couldn't trust it for any professional work;
- had a slow start up time during which you can't see anything in the viewfinder;
- had poor battery life;
- had worse color than any of my Canons;
- had poor control of active focus points and focus points that are too big;
- had poorly designed menus;
- had various system gaps and deficiencies;
- had some lenses that were overpriced for the image & build quality that they offered.

For a time I was reading Sony forums and seeing how some Sony users struggle with basic stuff. For example, I recall someone struggling with indoor fluorescent lighting causing exposures and colors to vary within each exposure, basically ruining many of their indoor sports photos. If they had Canon's anti-flicker feature, this would be automatically eliminated.


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## AdamBotond (Apr 29, 2016)

*Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV forseeable IQ at ISO 51k*



pedro said:


> what do you think:
> Will these alleged 51k ISO look more like 25k on the 5D3 or is there a slight chance that they might look even more like 12.8 K on the 5D3. 12.8 on my current 6D look pretty decent. Had a 5D3 before...



I'm expecting a slightly better high ISO performance than the recent 6D, but not by much. The thing is that the higher the MP is, the worse the high ISO performance, DR, fps are. And Canon didn't give us both high MP and great low light capabilities at the same time like Nikon did. Speaking of which, I am wondering why so many are desperate for a 28MP+ 5D successor. I would much rather have a 22-24 MP 5D successor with great high ISO, DR, faster fps, than a 36 MP camera with weak high iso, less DR, 5 fps and so on. If you are really going for MP, there is 5Ds/5DsR, right?


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## gregory4000 (Apr 29, 2016)

Sony A7rii will not handle extreme weather as well as a Conon 1dx and customer support is a decade behind Nikon and Canon. But if your a portrait, landscape and street photographer, its, in my opinion better than Canon and Nikon.


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## slclick (Apr 29, 2016)

And once again, welcome to the Sony Segue.


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## Robin 58 (Apr 29, 2016)

If this IS the spec on a MK IV then Canon will lose a customer if the launch price is still over 2 grand. I have been a lover of Pentax since 1963 and still have an LX film camera. Only reason for swapping to Canon was to go FF. However, Pentax have just launched the K1 FF camera at under 2 grand. 36MP and ISO to 208400. Wi-Fi and GPS, AA Filter Free and all for around £1600. Sorry Canon, the MK IV has to be better than this if it is going to cost nearly a grand more!


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## slclick (Apr 29, 2016)

Robin 58 said:


> If this IS the spec on a MK IV then Canon will lose a customer if the launch price is still over 2 grand. I have been a lover of Pentax since 1963 and still have an LX film camera. Only reason for swapping to Canon was to go FF. However, Pentax have just launched the K1 FF camera at under 2 grand. 36MP and ISO to 208400. Wi-Fi and GPS, AA Filter Free and all for around £1600. Sorry Canon, the MK IV has to be better than this if it is going to cost nearly a grand more!



There is absolutely 0% chance a 5Dmk4 will be <$3k...from the gitgo. Wait a year, get one on sale, try for a refurb or a Street Deal on CPW maybe. But as always, it takes time.

I'm trying hard not to say you're crazy for asking for it to be that price since the 4 year old Mk3 is right about that right now.


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## justsomedude (Apr 30, 2016)

Refurb7 said:


> jmoya said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just hoping for more DR. Nikon and Sony kill Canon on this. MP is not that important to me and many others. I start getting noise from 100iso images by only pushing 1.5 stops in lightroom from RAW photos on my 5d mark III's. Unacceptable Canon!!!! I just can't give up all my L lenses. Looks like I may have to wait for the 6d mark II.
> ...



Hey, I'm a Canon guy like most of us here. But there's not need to be flippant. It's been well documented all over the place that the 5D3 is way behind the Nikon and Sony offerings when it comes to shadow recovery. We can be honest about that without saying we're selling all our gear and switching sides...







I considered the old "A7RII switcheroo" last year. The photos those cameras are churning out just can't compete with anything Canon has on the market right now. The sensors are just insane when it comes to DR.

I've waited 14 months already... what's another 5 to see what Canon has up their sleeves? 

I hope the 5D4 has the DR everyone here is hoping for. Fingers crossed...


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## Robin 58 (Apr 30, 2016)

From SLClick - ['There is absolutely 0% chance a 5Dmk4 will be <$3k...from the gitgo. Wait a year, get one on sale, try for a refurb or a Street Deal on CPW maybe. But as always, it takes time.
I'm trying hard not to say you're crazy for asking for it to be that price since the 4 year old Mk3 is right about that right now.']

The MK IV will be less than the current 5DS and that is £2999. I expect the launch price to be around £2500. However, I wasn't asking for it to cost less, I was suggesting that the spec should be MUCH better than the Pentax if it's going to cost around £1000 more. The only thing that the MK IV seems to have better than the K1 is a better FPS. The other advantage with Pentax is that image stabilisation is in the body not the lens, making the lenses cheaper to make and buy. Canons delay on launching the MK IV may well be their downfall. I can see a lot going to Nikon as well. They made a big mistake with the entry level 1200D as it was reduced in spec from the 1100D to keep the price down and newcomers went to Nikon instead. Hopefully they haven't done the same thing with the 5D MK IV!


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## privatebydesign (Apr 30, 2016)

Robin 58 said:


> I was suggesting that the spec should be MUCH better than the Pentax if it's going to cost around £1000 more.



That isn't how market forces work, so stop dreaming. History has proven Canon don't need to throw in everything and the kitchen sink to make sales, so they won't.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 30, 2016)

Robin 58 said:


> The only thing that the MK IV seems to have better than the K1 is a better FPS.



Well, that...and a fully developed system of lenses, flashes, etc. Little stuff.


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## Ph0t0 (Apr 30, 2016)

*Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV forseeable IQ at ISO 51k*



AdamBotond said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > what do you think:
> ...



Well... I wish for a good compromise between MP, DR, ISO and some other functions. A camera with 28-36MP 7-8fps on chip ADC would be great for my needs. 
If you are really going for faster fps and great high ISO, there is 1DX MkII, right?


----------



## ahsanford (Apr 30, 2016)

*Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV forseeable IQ at ISO 51k*



Ph0t0 said:


> AdamBotond said:
> 
> 
> > pedro said:
> ...



Highlighted above is why expectations are high with folks. The D800/800E/810 rigs scratched so many itches so damn hard -- DR / MP / high ISO -- that it briefly looked like physics didn't apply to Nikon. The D800 tripled the resolution of the D700 and DR and high ISO performance considerably improved. That's not supposed to be possible in a single design iteration.

That single sort of 'yahtzee' moment is what many on the Canon side of the fence -- reasonably or unreasonably -- are hoping for. It's an absurd place where you can have your cake and eat it too because _everything gets better!_ But the D800 breakthrough in sensor performance is often cited as a precedent when arguing that it can happen.

I'm not holding my breath on that.

- A


----------



## zim (Apr 30, 2016)

*Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV forseeable IQ at ISO 51k*



ahsanford said:


> Highlighted above is why expectations are high with folks. The D800/800E/810 rigs scratched so many itches so damn hard -- DR / MP / high ISO -- that it briefly looked like physics didn't apply to Nikon. The D800 tripled the resolution of the D700 and DR and high ISO performance considerably improved. That's not supposed to be possible in a single design iteration.
> 
> That single sort of 'yahtzee' moment is what many on the Canon side of the fence -- reasonably or unreasonably -- is hoping for. It's an absurd place where you can have your cake and eat it too because _everything gets better!_ But the D800 breakthrough in sensor performance is often cited as a precedent when arguing that it can happen.
> 
> ...



Well my hopes are still for 28MP/8fps/1dx2 DR noise characteristics
Don't think that's asking for too much cake and certainly not against the laws of physics! ;D

Edited the DR bit that's actually not that high up my list compared to noise


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## romanr74 (Apr 30, 2016)

tpatana said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > tpatana said:
> ...




it is just like mortgages; if a 1% interest rate increase kills you then don't get the house, but don't blame the interest rate


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## tpatana (Apr 30, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



Please answer my question, are you ok to pay extra 10% on any camera body you buy?


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## romanr74 (Apr 30, 2016)

tpatana said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > tpatana said:
> ...



That's not the relevant question here. The question is if the body shall have performance level matching components and thus require performance level matching accessories. In the case of SD cards I believe this is not performance level matching for a series 5 body. If now there is (coincidentally) a change in card technology from CF cards to CFast card as state of the art technology I'd rather bite the bullet versus regretting the next four years that my brand new camera features legacy technology. The SD card slot in my 5d does nothing but collect dust, it is de facto a 1 memory card slot camera however you put it...


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## ehouli (Apr 30, 2016)

Guys if you're expecting/wanting/hoping for a better sensor, yes it would probably happen, maybe the new 5D Mk IV will have the same noise handling as the actual 6D but won't expect anything bette than that. 

Canon has proven time after time that their improvements are really small sensor after sensor so it would be better to keep taking the pictures the best exposed as possible and not rely on the sensor's DR.

Also, I think it would probably happen that the next 6D iteration will have better sensor than the 5D Mk IV. Why? because Canon expects to get more money from the 5D line to recover the R&D investments as soon as possible, then when that is done, the new 6D will come and they won't invest as much R&D but use the research from the 5D line. That happened when the 6D came out and still has a very respectable image quality.

I like Canon over Nikon because of the lens line and also the Cameras are very dependable. Nikon has been having QC issues too very often as they are a smaller company/factory than Canon, other than that I don't take my expectations too high on the new 5D sensor DR/Noise handling department.


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## kaihp (Apr 30, 2016)

GMCPhotographics said:


> If it's got the same AF module and set up as the 5DSR and 1DX, and not the cut down version from the 5DIII (ai servo is quite poor on the 5DIII compared to the 1Dx due to a lack of colour tracking and face tracking). If it's got the same DR and low iso invariance that the 1Dx II is supposed to have...and maybe another stop or so of clean iso ability. Then it could be considered a warm over. It's a pity that there's not 28mp or 8 fps...in fact the fps is more disappointing.
> The touch screen rear LCD would be welcome and a step forwards in ergonomics...although i don't fancy cleaning my fingerprints off every time I gimp a photo.



Pretty much follow all your points, GMC. But I guess our uses/needs are nearly overlapping


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## zim (Apr 30, 2016)

kaihp said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > If it's got the same AF module and set up as the 5DSR and 1DX, and not the cut down version from the 5DIII (ai servo is quite poor on the 5DIII compared to the 1Dx due to a lack of colour tracking and face tracking). If it's got the same DR and low iso invariance that the 1Dx II is supposed to have...and maybe another stop or so of clean iso ability. Then it could be considered a warm over. It's a pity that there's not 28mp or 8 fps...in fact the fps is more disappointing.
> ...



+1


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## 1611kjb (Apr 30, 2016)

Clearly there's no way to know how accurate this first report may be, or if it's just a figment of someone's fertile imagination. It was just about 6 months ago I was wrestling with buying my first full frame camera. I was deciding between the 5D Mk III and the 5DS/R. I decided on the 5D Mk III because the 5DS/R basically just offered megapixels and almost every other characteristic was inferior to the Mk III and for $1000 more. I figured I'd get the Mk III, learn about full frame cameras and trade it in when the next model was released and they had refined the issues with low light functionality, refined the high density sensor (since it is being sold to other manufacturers) and get 4k video up to speed. Built-in GPS and WiFi were a foregone conclusion and there is a strong desire for touch screen capability and, articulated if deemed reliable (my 70D works magnificently). I was also evaluating the Sony Alpha A7R II since I believe mirrorless is the future of high end cameras as well as electronic shutters, it's just a matter of time. Anyone who cares about the wireless and GPS has already bought attachments for their cameras (I know I have) and the 5D line is hardly an entry point, so most buyers are already well stocked on everything they need. The CFast card is ridiculous unless they are going to greatly improve 4k video capability which isn't listed in the specs. The small megapixel sensor is a definite non-starter if you are trying to draw in new business or get people to upgrade (despite all the professional and artistic commentary on the "need" for more megapixels, the *FACTS* are certain, a larger megapixel sensor capture more information, makes cropping easier and can make significantly higher tack-sharp photos, and, whether or not a given person needs it, almost everyone wants it and it is the way of the future. The fact is, you don't need more than 12-16 megapixels, but I don't see anyone wanting a camera with that limitation either. The next iteration needs to at least match Nikon (36mp) or match Sony (42mp) and, in my opinion should match or exceed Canon's best sensor at over 50mp, but needs a better processor and the best glass to make the huge megapixel count workable. The photos I've seen from Sony with the best Zeiss glass are incredible. The next iteration will have a street price around $4500-$5000. They are going to have to offer a much, much greater set of options to get people to make the push with camera phones being what they are. I'm pretty sure this rumor is either a complete fabrication or Canon is leaving the camera business. When the Mark IV (or whatever they call it) comes out, it better stomp the competition or I'll start shopping elsewhere for something that can use Canon glass.


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## tpatana (Apr 30, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> That's not the relevant question here. The question is if the body shall have performance level matching components and thus require performance level matching accessories. In the case of SD cards I believe this is not performance level matching for a series 5 body. If now there is (coincidentally) a change in card technology from CF cards to CFast card as state of the art technology I'd rather bite the bullet versus regretting the next four years that my brand new camera features legacy technology. The SD card slot in my 5d does nothing but collect dust, it is de facto a 1 memory card slot camera however you put it...



So you're not ok paying extra 10% on bodies, so why should other people?

And yes, 5d3 is basically 1-slot camera. I think I used SD slot on mine once, had some shoot with slow enough stuff and must have pics, so set to record on both.


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## Refurb7 (Apr 30, 2016)

justsomedude said:


> Refurb7 said:
> 
> 
> > jmoya said:
> ...



I'm not flippant. I recognize that Nikon and Sony have more dynamic range and that it can be useful in some situations. The photo you linked to is a perfect example. However, and this is a big HOWEVER, you can use your Canon to make a photo that's just as good as that Nikon example. You expose it so that you don't have to push the shadows that much. That's how photography was done for the past 180 years and it worked out pretty well.

I learned photography in the film era and learned to never rely on pushing shadows to extremes because that always looked bad. Now Nikon and Sony offer the ability to push shadows to extremes and that's pretty cool. But I've worked for years without pushing shadows to extremes, and my photos look OK. If you look at the number of high level and world-renowned pros using Canon (fine art, commercial, editorial, photojournalism, wedding, portrait), their photos look OK too (at least OK). So you have to ask yourself, How is it that someone has noisy photos at ISO 100 using a Canon camera? It's mind-boggling. My average ISO is probably ISO 1600 and noise is a complete non-issue.

Further, if someone actually has this problem, such that they are desperate for Canon to solve it (calling Canon "unacceptable!"), and Sony or Nikon solves it for them, then it's equally mind-boggling that they would have not switched to Sony or Nikon at the earliest opportunity. It just makes no sense to linger with Canon if one needs 1.5 stop (or more) pushes and one's ISO 100 photos somehow have troublesome noise.


----------



## justsomedude (Apr 30, 2016)

Refurb7 said:


> justsomedude said:
> 
> 
> > Refurb7 said:
> ...



For whatever reasons, you're choosing to ignore the critical point here. This isn't really about noise, or DR, or even photographic technique. And I'm not saying a Canon 5D3 can't be used to take great photos. Hell, a good photographer can still reliably use the original 5D for the majority of general photographic tasks. And if you want to take your logic/argument a few steps further, most folks could even get away with a 60D.

The conversation here is really about basic innovation. Nikon/Sony have been doing it for years, Canon is still stuck in 2nd gear for some reason.

Sure, you can keep going back to the tool shed to use the same push mower to trim your lawn for the next 15 years... but when competitors are providing better and more cost effectice options, at some point you start asking yourself, "why am I still using this?"

So, sure... an original 5D can take noiseless photos when used "correctly," but the better question is, why would I still be using an original 5D?


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## Maiaibing (Apr 30, 2016)

1611kjb said:


> I decided on the 5D Mk III because the 5DS/R basically just offered megapixels and almost every other characteristic was inferior to the Mk III and for $1000 more.



Think you made a typo here: "almost every other characteristic was _*superior *_to the Mk III".


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## ahsanford (Apr 30, 2016)

ehouli said:


> Also, I think it would probably happen that the next 6D iteration will have better sensor than the 5D Mk IV. Why? because Canon expects to get more money from the 5D line to recover the R&D investments as soon as possible, then when that is done, the new 6D will come and they won't invest as much R&D but use the research from the 5D line. That happened when the 6D came out and still has a very respectable image quality.



The 6D outperforming the 5D3 sensor (and it's only a hair better, let's be fair) was a bit of a one-off that most attribute to the 6D coming to market later than the 5D3, not b/c Canon wants the 6D to outperform the 5D3 for any reason at all.

Consider: the 5D3 mops the floor with the 6D in so many areas, and the market values that -- the 5D3 has retained its price far better than the 6D over time.

But I understand where your expectation is coming from. Canon absolutely did not want large chunks of photographers to say 'I don't do X (e.g. shoot video, need a fancy tracking AF setup, need high FPS, etc.), so all I need is the 6D and I'm reeling in shots as good the 5D3,' but because the sensor was so strong, that's exactly what happened. 

I think Canon will see to it *that* doesn't happen again with the 5D4 / 6D2 releases -- the 5D4 needs to be better across the board so that every user has something better to look forward to with the 5D4 over the 6D2. In other words, Canon's job is to have you _like_ the $1500-2000 6D2, but they want you to be absolutely salivating for a $3500 5D rig. 

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 30, 2016)

justsomedude said:


> The conversation here is really about basic innovation. Nikon/Sony have been doing it for years, Canon is still stuck in 2nd gear for some reason.



I'm sure you can take great pictures with that bare silicon sensor you carry around. Most of us use other stuff – lenses, AF, that sort of stuff. But for you, I guess those aren't areas where innovation counts. :


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## Refurb7 (Apr 30, 2016)

justsomedude said:


> Refurb7 said:
> 
> 
> > justsomedude said:
> ...



You're analogies really don't make sense. The 5D3 is not some push mower. It is used by some of the best photographers on the planet to make great photos and win awards, etc. Neither is the original 5D some push mower. I have a friend who still uses two original 5D and they do everything he needs.

Canon has plenty of basic innovation that actually helps photographers. The anti-flicker feature. Radio flash. Wide angle zoom. Medium and small raw files. Dual-pixel AF. Blue spectrum refractive optics. DO lenses. Why do people overlook these?

Competitors are not providing "better and more cost effective" anything for most of photography. Canon provides better and more effective solutions for many photographers. 

When Canon so obviously meets the needs of some the very best photographers around, I have to ask why Canon doesn't meet the needs of some guy on a photography forum? Is it because he is some super-user with superior needs and ultra-high quality demands, who makes giant prints that can't show the slightest grain and can't be touched by default noise reduction in Lightroom? Or is it because his photographic knowledge is fundamentally lacking, and he hopes that a couple of extra stops of low ISO dynamic range will somehow magically make his photography "acceptable".


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## ehouli (Apr 30, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> The 6D outperforming the 5D3 sensor (and it's only a hair better, let's be fair) was a bit of a one-off that most attribute to the 6D coming to market later than the 5D3, not b/c Canon wants the 6D to outperform the 5D3 for any reason at all.



I wouldn't say a hair better, the banding it's almost not present and it's the 6D the preferred camera for astrophotography instead of the 5D Mk III because it's strong banding (not as strong as the original 7D), it means that on high ISO the 6D manages noise way better, of course on low ISOs there is no apparent difference.


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## ahsanford (Apr 30, 2016)

ehouli said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > The 6D outperforming the 5D3 sensor (and it's only a hair better, let's be fair) was a bit of a one-off that most attribute to the 6D coming to market later than the 5D3, not b/c Canon wants the 6D to outperform the 5D3 for any reason at all.
> ...



I guess I don't stare as intensely at IQ samples like you might be doing. We each value different things. 

My point is that it's not in Canon's best interests to have the 6D outperform the 5D line *in any way* other than at a consumer feature level -- like offering a handy dandy 'astro' stop on the mode wheel, being made more of plastic than metal, or having a tilty-flippy screen or something.

The 5D4 should have more of just about everything to the 6D2:


More AF points / options / tuneability
Better in high ISO
Higher fps and larger buffer
More/better video options
Faster maximum shutter speed
More custom modes on the main dial.

The mantra would be "Anything you (6D2) can do, I (5D4) can do better." That will help clearly define why it costs nearly twice as much.

The only thing I'm _less_ sure the 5D4 will have over the 6D2 is megapixels. Many have argued the easiest way to segment the FF space is to give the 5D4 something D810-like in resolution while limiting the 6D2 to an 'entry' level of 24 MP. I don't agree with that personally. I think the 5D3/5D4 users value the quality of those pixels far more than the quantity, and I think framerates will suffer if they go higher res with the 5D4.

- A


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## pierlux (May 1, 2016)

tpatana said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > That's not the relevant question here. The question is if the body shall have performance level matching components and thus require performance level matching accessories. In the case of SD cards I believe this is not performance level matching for a series 5 body. If now there is (coincidentally) a change in card technology from CF cards to CFast card as state of the art technology I'd rather bite the bullet versus regretting the next four years that my brand new camera features legacy technology. The SD card slot in my 5d does nothing but collect dust, it is de facto a 1 memory card slot camera however you put it...
> ...



Just a couple of remarks on this matter. 

For photographers who upgrade cameras in 4-5 years intervals, almost certainly new cards are mandatory, regardless of new standards (of course, Nikon and Sony shooters who upgrade every 1-2 years if they can afford to may think differently : ). When I purchased the 5D II I had to buy new CF cards, the ones I used with the 300D were absolutely much too slow and too small. Also the 7D II urged me to buy a couple of faster, bigger CF cards. Sure I could use my previous ones, but 10 fps and the opportunity to emtpty the buffer faster prompted me to upgrade.

But why are you assuming you'll have to pay 10% of the camera price for cards? By the time the 5D IV hits the shelves, CFast cards will probably cost 50% less than the current pricing. It has always been like this, with UDMA, UDMA6, UDMA7... Manufacturers just don't sell enough CFast cards these days, but very soon things will change.

Clearly you're not interested in 4K video, otherwise you wouldn't complain about CFast, neither am I. So I wonder why can't you consider purchasing a couple of good SD cards and eventually wait a bit longer for the price of CFast to lower considerably. A 2-pack Lexar 128GB Professional 1000x, 150 MB/s UHS-II SDXC SD cards (256 GB, isn't that enough capacity and enough speed?) is available for $119.99 at B&H, you can bet for even less by September-October, that's 2-3% of the camera price. Should you need faster, you could temporarily settle for 2x 64GB at higher speed for approx the same price, plus it seems we'll have built-in WiFi in the 5D IV... 8)

On a side note, by the time I'll purchase the 5D IV (presumably late 2017-early 2018), CFast cards will be the standard for most pro/semipro cameras, they will be sold in remarkable numbers and will be available at 1/4-1/5 of the current price, so CFast really is not going to be an issue for me in prospect.


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## unfocused (May 1, 2016)

tpatana said:


> ...I think I used SD slot on mine once, had some shoot with slow enough stuff and must have pics, so set to record on both.



People are confusing SD Card performance and Canon 5DIII write/buffer performance. SD Cards are painfully slow on my 5D III, but when I put the same card in my 7DII the performance is indistinguishable from the CF Card.


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## theaurien (May 1, 2016)

Refurb7 said:


> justsomedude said:
> 
> 
> > Refurb7 said:
> ...




I agree with you, for the best photographers, the III is a marvel, and one they can love and use perfectly. I don't mind admitting my photography is not as good as a "the very best photographers around." The best photographers in the world can live with, like, and even love the III. But, for a lot of photographers, myself included, we are not taking photos on their level. This is my own fault, I should get better. They have the expertise, experience, and ability to produce perfect photos using the equipment to the best of their ability. I on the hand, am leaning on my equipment more because I don't always take the perfect photo. I also do a lot of travel photography, and unlike a lot of professionals and other fortunate individuals I don't always have the time or ability to get the perfect shot. I also don't have someone I can send my photos to get perfect photoshop work done. All of this means that the camera and lens aid me when I screw up. 

I love my III, and just bought a 5Ds, hopefully here this week. I have never come across a photo where I said, I bet (insert Sony, Nikon, Pentax, etc.) camera would have gotten this image where my III can't. But... I would love to play with A7SII high ISO, and the D800 shadow improvements. Just to see if my own inadequacies as a photographer can't be mitigated some by the equipment I use.


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## Refurb7 (May 1, 2016)

tpatana said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > That's not the relevant question here. The question is if the body shall have performance level matching components and thus require performance level matching accessories. In the case of SD cards I believe this is not performance level matching for a series 5 body. If now there is (coincidentally) a change in card technology from CF cards to CFast card as state of the art technology I'd rather bite the bullet versus regretting the next four years that my brand new camera features legacy technology. The SD card slot in my 5d does nothing but collect dust, it is de facto a 1 memory card slot camera however you put it...
> ...



That it's a 1-slot camera is news to me. I shoot events and use the 5D3 as a dual-slot camera. Raw to the CF card and jpg backup to the SD card. Works great.


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## romanr74 (May 1, 2016)

unfocused said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > ...I think I used SD slot on mine once, had some shoot with slow enough stuff and must have pics, so set to record on both.
> ...



People are confusing SD card performance on someone other's gear with SD card performance on their gear. I own a 5d mkIII and SD card performance on this body is not good. Even if an SD card can fly to the moon in a spaceship, that doesn't help me. Further, reliability of SD card is inferior to CF card reliability and technology wise in my opinion a compromise on a 5d body...


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## ehouli (May 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> ehouli said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Let's hope for the best, but if Canon does go the High-MP count game, then they should start changing the 6D2 identity, because as you say, FPS rate will suffer and probably should give better FPS rates to the 6D2 to make it a faster camera for action/nature and leave the 5D4 as the D810 contender. 

But for the sake of photography I hope they don't begin the contending game, that's why they released the 5DS/5DSR line and it would be better if they keep it that way.


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## pierlux (May 1, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > tpatana said:
> ...



People forget that we're discussing a spec list of the 5D IV, extrapolating the SD write performance of the 5D III and assuming it will be a bottleneck also in the IV is nonsense. Unfortunately, SD speed in the 5D III was a well-known drawback, but, as unfocused noted, the 7D II SD write speed is much higher than that of the 5D III, we can reasonably expect the 5D IV to be even better than the 7D II in this respect.



romanr74 said:


> Further, reliability of SD card is inferior to CF card reliability and technology wise in my opinion a compromise on a 5d body...



Reliability of SD cards is no longer a problem. Given the possibility to perform an in-camera low level format, deterioration of SD cards performance over time is no longer an issue, too. Concerning compromises, every single aspect of camera design and engineering is a compromise; unfortunately for the 5D III users, the SD card was a big problem for many, and using SD cards faster than 45 MB/s was of no benefit, so I can understand the annoyance of many. But I'd be optimistic for the future in this respect.


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## slclick (May 1, 2016)

pierlux said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



I disagree about SD cards. They are flimsy and they can snap and have issues with the lock mech. Speeds be damned, they are just not robust enough.


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## Orangutan (May 1, 2016)

slclick said:


> I disagree about SD cards. They are flimsy and they can snap and have issues with the lock mech. Speeds be damned, they are just not robust enough.



Never had those kinds of problems, were they cheapo SD cards? 

What kinds of situations gave you those problems? In the old days of tiny capacity it was necessary to switch cards frequently and quickly. These days, if I need to swap my 64GB cards I don't wait until they get down to 0 -- that gives me a chance to swap calmly and deliberately.


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## pierlux (May 1, 2016)

slclick said:


> I disagree about SD cards. They are flimsy and they can snap and have issues with the lock mech. Speeds be damned, they are just not robust enough.



Of course SD cards are more breakable than CF. But you can't have bent pins inside the slot!  Overall, I think pros and cons of each tend to be tantamount. That said, I'd much prefer to have CFast + CF. Very unlikely, unfortunately.


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## Don Haines (May 1, 2016)

pierlux said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...


If there is an SD card slot in the 5DIV, it is a fairly safe bet that it will be UHS-2.... At my local store I can pick up a 64G card with 250MB/sec write speeds, while the fastest CF cards they have top out at 150MB/sec write speeds...... and I can pull out that SD card from the camera and put in in my laptop, in my TV, read it with my phone.... 

To me, it makes sense to have two slots and one is for blistering speed (cFast) and the other is for versatility (SD). Compact Flash may well be reaching the end of it's life as it now fails at both......


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## Ph0t0 (May 1, 2016)

Refurb7 said:


> justsomedude said:
> 
> 
> > Refurb7 said:
> ...




Well professionals are always able to take good photos with the gear available, but that does not mean that their photos couldn't be better with better gear. And for those that are out there trying to do something creative and pushing the boundaries the gear can be the limiting factor. I can go out and take some nice shoots with my Iphone, but because of its camera limitations I will be forced to use different approach than I would have perhaps wished to. 
People shoot good photos with the original 1D, but if your thing is shooting milky way over mountains and landscapes, that camera will definitely limit you in that regard. 
And about the DR... I've never been a fan of overprocessed badly exposed HDR images, but at the same time I do shoot a lot of models on locations and when shooting a big scene outdoors there are often dark parts in the images that I would like to lighten and bring out more without loosing to many details. 
And as a hobby I like hike to mountains and shoot wildlife and landscapes. Typically I shoot animals during the day and in the evening and then make some landscape shoots at dusk. So you can probably imagine that the shooting styles of those two are completely different and that my photos can always benefit from more resolution, DR and faster AF. That doesn't mean that photos that I took with my old cameras are not good, but in a lot of cases they could benefit from if I shoot them with a newer camera. 

Most of my friends are in photography business as well and I can tell you that those of them that are better photographers and artists would always grab the better camera if offered and those of them that have been shooting the same kind of portraits and weddings for the last 30 years really couldn't care less about MP, DR, AF etc... But the latter mostly belong to a group of photogs that were hugely upset when film started giving way to digital.
So my view is that a lot or most true professionals have needs that are trying to be meet by Canon and other manufacturers, not because their knowledge would be lacking but because they want to create new and exciting images.


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## Maiaibing (May 1, 2016)

pierlux said:


> Reliability of SD cards is no longer a problem. Given the possibility to perform an in-camera low level format, deterioration of SD cards performance over time is no longer an issue, too. Concerning compromises, every single aspect of camera design and engineering is a compromise; unfortunately for the 5D III users, the SD card was a big problem for many, and using SD cards faster than 45 MB/s was of no benefit, so I can understand the annoyance of many. But I'd be optimistic for the future in this respect.



Even in the 5DSR the SD card is very workable. You notice the difference if shooting a lot at once, but its not a big issue.


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## Refurb7 (May 1, 2016)

Ph0t0 said:


> Refurb7 said:
> 
> 
> > justsomedude said:
> ...



Lightening shadows is not going to make my photos new or exciting or more creative, or the slightest bit better.


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## scyrene (May 1, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree about SD cards. They are flimsy and they can snap and have issues with the lock mech. Speeds be damned, they are just not robust enough.
> ...



Yeah, I don't find SD cards a problem either. I can't help wondering if the view they are flimsy and unreliable is just received wisdom.


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## neuroanatomist (May 1, 2016)

Refurb7 said:


> Lightening shadows is not going to make my photos new or exciting or more creative. Far from it.



No, but extreme shadow lifts can make them look flat, front-lit and uninteresting. If that's your thing, extreme shadow pushes are the way to go, and Exmor makes it possible!


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## ahsanford (May 1, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > slclick said:
> ...



I am the surely-in-the-minority weirdo that has *only* used SD in my 5D3 this past 4 years. My list of reasons is quite long, actually: 


I don't shoot much 'high write demand' work family/friends. 
I'm not a pro and would not be devastated if I lost a day's shooting.
My Mac has an SD reader onboard, and I hate the desktop clutter a card reader would bring. 
I find that everyone and their mother has an SD reader in their home computers if I need to swap out shots while visiting.
They are cheaper.

As far as reliability goes, I've cracked the outer shell of one SD card, but that was due to keeping it in an overkill card protector waterproof/airtight clamshell vault that slightly flexed the card via an interference fit. Shame on me for thinking it that wouldn't shorten it's lifespan. The cracked case was fixed with a 1-2mm thin strip of clear tape. Still works like a charm.

All that said, I recognize my viewpoint is in the minority. Why not take a page from Nikon here and offer multiple card setups? The camera would come with the basic (CF + SD) setup, but we could have the option to pull that out like a cartridge and replace it with a dual CF setup of some sort.

- A


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## scyrene (May 1, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



Well said!


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## scyrene (May 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...



You're not alone! I mostly shot with SD. I used CF to begin with because I had them left over from my earlier cameras. Then later, I had to work from an old PC which only had a working CF slot. But otherwise I used the SD as it was cheaper for the same capacity and I never noticed the difference otherwise. But I don't do extremely fast action like birds in flight (usually) or sport. However, as I'm about to get a 5Ds with a view to maybe a 1DxII I've just ordered a new CF... but I'm glad I can still use the SD for the time being!


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## ahsanford (May 1, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Refurb7 said:
> 
> 
> > Lightening shadows is not going to make my photos new or exciting or more creative. Far from it.
> ...



+1. One shot HDR for the win! 

Kidding. That s--- hurts my eyes.

I actually deliberately resort to that nonsensical 'blast shadows' / 'obliterate highlights' move, but only _on my cell phone_, believe it or not. Shooting our two black dogs with poor interior lighting is like a dynamic range nut punch, but needs must in that case.

- A


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## Don Haines (May 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Refurb7 said:
> ...


That's why I shoot pictures of black squirrels in the snow.... It doesn't matter what camera I use, none have sufficient DR so I can forget about it and enjoy photography.....


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## Ozarker (May 2, 2016)

vangelismm said:


> Still no dual slot? Like CF+CF or SD+SD?



Who in the world would want SD+SD? CF+CF yes. But never SD+SD.


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## tpatana (May 2, 2016)

pierlux said:


> Clearly you're not interested in 4K video, otherwise you wouldn't complain about CFast, neither am I.



You bit misunderstood my rant. Yes, I'd rather use CF so I don't need to update my cards, but I understand that for good 4k CFast is mandatory.

My rant was against the logic that if person can afford device for price of X, surely they can afford extra item for price of Y. I really hate that comment, I can't understand why people say it.


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## romanr74 (May 2, 2016)

tpatana said:


> pierlux said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly you're not interested in 4K video, otherwise you wouldn't complain about CFast, neither am I.
> ...



Again, the issue here is that there is a change in state-of-the-art technology for memory cards taking place. I do not understand how you want to stay on old/legacy CF technology with a brand new camera, when CFast is going to be the standard in a few months. I also hate to replace my CF cards at considerable cost, but I would hate even more to have a camera with a 3500ish dollar price tag which is not up to date technology wise...


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## Ph0t0 (May 2, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I don't think that you understood what I was saying at all. Perhaps I wasn't too clear. 
I never said that lifting shadows all over the image makes the picture look good. I was trying to say that new technologies help professionals create new and exciting images and push the boundaries and that if you are doing something creative there are lot of occasions where you do need high ISO more MP or more DR. 
And when talking about DR I stated that I'm not a fan of HDR overprocessing. However I do find the ability to brighten a certain area of the photo useful- be it a small detail on the scene or a line in the shadows that would help the storytelling of the image or improve its aesthetics.


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## romanr74 (May 2, 2016)

Ph0t0 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



I believe creativity is about technique much more than about technology...


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## justsomedude (May 3, 2016)

RickSpringfield said:


> Its true. You can be creative without technology. But couldn't you be more creative with better technology? Even the artists brush evolved over time.



^^^^ this

All artists employ technology in one form or another. The idea that it's only about "creative technique" or "the mind's eye," is a silly, arrogant, and extreme position. Paints have evolved, canvas materials have evolved, brushes have evolved dramatically, hell, even cameras in 1940 were far better than those in 1900. And Ansel Adams spent hours - days even - tweaking his photos in the dark room. He said it best himself, “The negative is the equivalent of the composer’s score, and the print the performance.” 

If technology had no place in the creative process, we'd all still be shooting bellows cameras.

Give it a rest.


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## ahsanford (May 3, 2016)

justsomedude said:


> RickSpringfield said:
> 
> 
> > Its true. You can be creative without technology. But couldn't you be more creative with better technology? Even the artists brush evolved over time.
> ...



No one's saying technology is irrelevant, we're just saying -- in big, bold letters -- *1-2 stops more DR is not going to take your photography to new heights*, and it's sure as hell not worth leaving your chosen camera company's ecosystem to obtain.

I'll take what Canon gives me because -- on aggregate -- they are still no contest the best fit for my needs w.r.t. service, reliability, lens selection, handling, ergonomics, budget, etc. To leave _all that_ for a shade more DR seems nuts to me.

- A


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## plam_1980 (May 4, 2016)

Maybe this rumour was started by Canon themselves to make all those who were hesitating to buy 1D X2 or wait for 5 D IV, turn to the more lucrative model


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## mb66energy (May 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> justsomedude said:
> 
> 
> > RickSpringfield said:
> ...



I think these are very important parameters for a camera from an artist's point of view. And I would like to add another parameter: longer product cycles.
I like progress in technology but it is very important to me that the progress is combined in packages that make sense and give me real evolutionary or sometimes revolutionary steps. It gives me more time to use what I have instead of thinking what I could have.


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## romanr74 (May 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> justsomedude said:
> 
> 
> > RickSpringfield said:
> ...



+1


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## Memdroid (May 4, 2016)

RickSpringfield said:


> I'd rather see 2yr cycles and rapid innovation (tempered by reliability/service/lens compat etc as stated above) then at least its possible to elect in or opt out.



That is a strange statement. I don't think many photographer want to spend their hard earned cash on the newest and latest gear every 2 years for incremental updates with gimmicky bells and whistles. Bodies ain't cheap, and spending thousands of dollars on it and watch in devaluate faster than it breaks down or needing service for that matter, does not make a lot of people happy I would imagine.


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## Maiaibing (May 4, 2016)

Memdroid said:


> That is a strange statement. I don't think many photographer want to spend their hard earned cash on the newest and latest gear every 2 years for incremental updates with gimmicky bells and whistles. Bodies ain't cheap, and spending thousands of dollars on it and watch in devaluate faster than it breaks down or needing service for that matter, does not make a lot of people happy I would imagine.



Well, that's a strange conclusion to the wish for more choice. You can actually opt not to buy the newest and 
greatest. Try it, its very liberating.

What I certainly do not want is to have an upgrade every 4 years and still have nothing more than an incremental boost. The lackluster "upgrade" between 5DII and 5DIII actually made me wait 7 years to upgrade at all. At that was not even to the 5DIV.

Seems to me Canon is happy to let me wait 8 years before getting a worthy upgrade to the 5DIV.

I for sure would never even consider going from the 5DIII to the 5DIV if the rumored specs are true. I this case a lot of 5DIII owners will be waiting 8 years too to upgrade.

Somehow that 8 year drought makes a 2 year upgrade cycles sound like an excellent idea.


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## mkabi (May 4, 2016)

Memdroid said:


> RickSpringfield said:
> 
> 
> > I'd rather see 2yr cycles and rapid innovation (tempered by reliability/service/lens compat etc as stated above) then at least its possible to elect in or opt out.
> ...



Just cause there is a new body every 2 years, doesn't mean you have to upgrade every 2 years.
At the same time, you can watch where the technology is going... I'm sure many people that bought a 5D mark 2 has skipped the 5D mark 3, but to wait 8 to 10 years before seeing a mark 4 is ridiculous. Think about the competition that is pumping out a body every 2 years, they just sent out 5 bodies before Canon has between models. 

Technology, just like anything else (except houses, certain pieces of art, vintage stuff and collectors edition stuff) devalues over time, get over it. I'm not crying that Toyota or any other car company releases new cars or models on a yearly basis... 
AND, if you buy a new car this year, you can safely bet that there will be a new car next year, but you dont' wait for the next best thing nor do you worry that your car is going to be outdated a year later. In fact, you will most likely keep the car for 10 years before you buy a new car. But, suppose every car company kept Canon's motto of 4 to 5 year updates without serious changes, and lets say its a Toyota and you are eyeing the Corolla - might as well rebadge it and call it what it is - a '2016' Toyota Corolla for 4 years straight. It doesn't matter if you bought a 2016 or 2019 its the same damn thing... and if that's the case people will wait for 2020/2021 before a new car is bought.

Same with television sets, there is a new damn model every year. Nobody complains about that...


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## Krob78 (May 4, 2016)

mkabi said:


> Memdroid said:
> 
> 
> > RickSpringfield said:
> ...


I'd probably use company besides Toyota, they're actually known for only what was considered minor, incremental changes in body styles. Take the Toyota Tacoma, 2016 is the first true revamping of that model in many, many years and had many Toyota owners looking to upgrade, sitting on the fences, complaining, yet waiting nonetheless, as many are diehard fans... But it's their amazing reputation for "reliability" that keeps people coming back regardless of the very slow changes in their models over the years.


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## Memdroid (May 4, 2016)

mkabi said:


> Memdroid said:
> 
> 
> > RickSpringfield said:
> ...



A _pro camera_ manufacturer that does this fast refresh cycles does not demonstrate confidence IMO.
All the other points you made are correct but does not really apply to camera bodies.
But I am with you here that the 5d3 is long in tooth and the follow up should've been released last year. But it is still a kick-ass camera and a very strong competitor to all the 6 cameras that was released by the competition.


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## Krob78 (May 4, 2016)

Memdroid said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > Memdroid said:
> ...



The 5d3 is a great camera and still a strong competitor, I'd agree with that. The 7d was seemingly forever without an upgrade, drove me absolutely nuts. That said, the long wait on the 7D II is what finally pushed me to ordering my 5d3! I was tired of waiting and with all the rave reviews at the time of the 5d3, I decided it was time to go FF, most of my glass was EF glass anyway and I never looked back. 

So perhaps Canon has some resources that point to a high enough percentage of people like me that will tire of the wait and purchase to the next level? That said, it would have to be a high enough percentage of folks like me that add to the bottom line of the "next level" sales numbers and that, I have no idea of...


----------



## scyrene (May 4, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> The lackluster "upgrade" between 5DII and 5DIII actually made me wait 7 years to upgrade at all. At that was not even to the 5DIV.



Rewriting history? I wasn't following things closely back then, but I thought the general consensus was that the 5DII was a great camera but for its autofocus system. The 5DIII added top-of-the-line AF, keeping everything else roughly the same (there *were* other improvements, of course - cleaner high ISO, more fps, etc). What did they not add that you really wanted?


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## mkabi (May 4, 2016)

I'm going to address most of what was said after I last posted, all in one post. Not picking on one particular person...
Use whatever word you want, "lack-luster" or "incremental"...
Compare the 7D to the 7DII or 5D2 to 5D3 or 1DX to 1DX2 or even 70D to 80D...
Your telling me that Canon - one of the most profitable companies, one of the biggest imaging companies... 
Is not able to come up with something more substantial than that in 4 to 5 years?
Or they don't want to, Or you don't want them to, Or you have such low standards?

From my standpoint, I'm seeing a bunch of excuses for a company that most of us are not even apart of....
I'm a consumer.... Not a canon employee, not a stockholder.... I can careless about their profits... But as a consumer like most of us here, I want more for less, not less for more (as most Canon people on this forum seem to be)... But think about this as you are supporting any company, not jus Canon.... You are emptying your pockets to fill their pockets... So demand more, it's your money and your right. If you are happy with your gear... Good for you, but shouldn't you be out there shooting instead of coming online to defend it?


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## romanr74 (May 4, 2016)

Krob78 said:


> Memdroid said:
> 
> 
> > mkabi said:
> ...



I am not sure it is Canon's defect when some of their customers get bored when the cannot buy something new every second year. I see people shooting awesome pictures with their 5d3. I just spent a long weekend in Venice with mine and never had the feeling my Camera acutally holds me back. Most people spend too much time finding shortfalls in their gear versus working with their gear, mastering it and improving their skills.


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## ahsanford (May 4, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > The lackluster "upgrade" between 5DII and 5DIII actually made me wait 7 years to upgrade at all. At that was not even to the 5DIV.
> ...



The 5D3's AF system uppercut the 5D2's AF system into another time zone. This is the single biggest upgrade the 5D3 received.

Most 5D2 owners who were bummed at the 5D3 announcement was hoping for a far better sensor -- more resolution, more DR, or less noise in higher ISO. Only the last of three occurred.

But the 5D3 _did_ offer: 


A stellar AF system
+2 fps
More video recording modes, along with some obvious/basic course corrections for a more video-centric userbase (easier to tweak audio levels, inclusion of a headphone jack, etc.)
Silent shooting mode (which is hugely useful)

...and the 5D3 sold like hotcakes. It may not have been all prior 5D2 owners buying them, but it sold very well.

- A


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## ahsanford (May 4, 2016)

mkabi said:


> If you are happy with your gear... Good for you, but shouldn't you be out there shooting instead of coming online to defend it?



If you are unhappy with your gear.... Good for you, but shouldn't you be selling all your Canon gear and buying something better instead of insulting it?

Other people make better sensors. *I'm okay with that.* Other people offer 4K in cheaper ways. I'm also okay with that.

_Canon does everything else better, and they have never let me down_. That is why I happily stay with them.

- A


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## scyrene (May 4, 2016)

mkabi said:


> [...]shouldn't you be out there shooting instead of coming online to defend it?



Some of us are out shooting almost every day with our gear, so we know its strengths and weaknesses. For myself, I try to counter outrageous, ridiculous, or just unrealistic rants and comments on here, and to bring a little balance.

I've had the 5D3 nearly 4 years, and the shutter count is nearly 120,000. I am just now getting ready to upgrade. And actually my next camera - the 5Ds - will have similar features across the board, except double the resolution, and apparently better quality noise at higher ISOs. And that is enough - not because I am an idiot, or unimaginative, but because I am still content overall with what this machine can offer me. It still produces excellent shots, quite reliably, in a whole range of genres and situations. And I don't see magic being made with these apparently infinitely superior cameras from other manufacturers.


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## ahsanford (May 4, 2016)

scyrene said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > [...]shouldn't you be out there shooting instead of coming online to defend it?
> ...



FYI, I'm in a very similar boat to you -- 5D3, perhaps 100k shutter count. I'm sticking with my 5D3 and not upgrading as I don't feel my photographic skill/ability is yet on par with the tool I own. Not yet. I bang into _some_ limitations of the 5D3, but most of the time that's because I'm being very unreasonable/undisciplined with time of day, lighting conditions, the breakneck speed with which I compose, etc.

Goodness knows I'd love to have (and would certainly use) a better tool that comes down the road, but I'm not convinced my photography will demonstrably improve with it. Until that time, I'll save my gear money for glass.

- A


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## Maiaibing (May 4, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > The lackluster "upgrade" between 5DII and 5DIII actually made me wait 7 years to upgrade at all. At that was not even to the 5DIV.
> ...



Obviously did not... Lots of 5DII owners did not upgrade. Forums - including this one - are full of 5DII-owners scratching their heads while they wait.

Everyone has their own reason. What I lacked?: More MPIX (virtually same) , better picture IQ (except high iso no-one can see any difference and even here there's banding), lackluster low light AF (even if better overall), still relatively slow fps (not enough to matter). After a few thousand shots with the 5DIII it was clear - it offered me no reason whatsoever to pay 2x3.500$ to stay in the game.

It was an overall nice incremental upgrade. No more, no less. 3.500$ for the same pictures I was taking already? No way.

BTW, I consider this my best (non-)buying decision ever. 

I got the new 300mm f/2.8 IS L II instead (not really worth the upgrade either for the price as that was also only an incremental overall upgrade). Looking back it was the far better choice.

Feel free to buy every new camera out there. I look hard at value. And I like to test before I commit.


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## Maiaibing (May 4, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> ...and the 5D3 sold like hotcakes.



Do you have any numbers?


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## slclick (May 4, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > ...and the 5D3 sold like hotcakes.
> ...



Ok, this one stopped me in my tracks. Are you actually denying the volume of 5D3 sales?


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## scyrene (May 4, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Rewriting history? I wasn't following things closely back then,
> ...



Actually I'm confused. Are you saying the 5DIII should have been better? Or are you saying it's ok that the upgrades are evolutionary, not revolutionary? My position is, people complaining that Canon needs something fantastically new and improves every year or two are being unfairly harsh. Perhaps I'm conflating your comments with someone else's above, in which case I apologise.

That many 5DII owners did not upgrade may well be true - actually neither you nor I have any figures on it, so the assertion is merely opinion. But I can believe it. The question is, *should* people feel compelled to upgrade to the next model? The 5DIII *was* an upgrade in many respects as I noted above. Just because you or even most 5DII owners didn't find the considerable improvements in AF (number and spread of AF points, and later the addition of f/8 AF capability) and fps (3.9 to 6 is an increase of 50%), and other new/improved features doesn't mean the 5DIII wasn't a worthy successor to the 5DII.


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## romanr74 (May 4, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



I'm always fascinated how people making such comments believe they know what they state...


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## romanr74 (May 4, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > ...and the 5D3 sold like hotcakes.
> ...



Hilarious - do you?


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## neuroanatomist (May 4, 2016)

slclick said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Well, he didn't buy one so it can't have sold well. I mean, Canon said it has sold well, but it's not like they'd know anything about it. :


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## Maiaibing (May 4, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



I did not make any statement about sales numbers. In fact my question already makes your question obviously superfluous. I have none - and therefore I do not make such claims.

But if someone claims a camera sold like "hotcakes" it indicates that some kind of facts are available to make this claim. What I do know for a fact is that Canon DSLR sales dropped like a rock in the years after the 5DIII was launched (2013/14/15).


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## slclick (May 4, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



You must be fun at parties what with the whole corner on fact gathering and all. Somethings are a given. Maybe not to those so functionally close to being mistaken for an AI yet we 'know' certain things. 

Kittens are cute, grass is green, lots of 5D3's were sold....givens.


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## ahsanford (May 4, 2016)

slclick said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Sorry, I stepped away. Of course no one has hard data, but consider all the circumstantial evidence of the 5D3's success:


4+ years after launch, it is still in the top 20 SLRs sold at Amazon.
Canon still hasn't replaced it yet and it still commands some 60-65% of it's original asking price 4+ years since launch.
Personally, I see this camera everywhere I go -- weddings, events, random people here in southern California making movies (they are everywhere out here), etc.
You don't make a 5D4 if the 5D3 failed commercially. You'd rebrand and rename it, or you'd abandon it altogether for a new kind of product.
Find me another FF camera with a larger ecosystem of body-geometry-specific accessories -- underwater housings, 3rd party grips, L-plates, video rigs, eyecups, gimbals, etc. (Only the 5D2 might compare.) Companies tend to make more body-design-specific accessories for the better selling rigs.
It has built a great reputation for taking award-winning shots.

So I am not fanboying here. A camera cannot maintain price for so long so well and be so ubiquitous globally and not be considered a success. It may not be the revolutionary rig the 5D2 was, but goodness gracious did Canon sell a boatload of them.

- A


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## ahsanford (May 5, 2016)

RickSpringfield said:


> Why so much innovate hate? If 2 years after the 5D3 launches Canon dropped a 5D4 with 4K, wifi, a few more MP, a larger AF grid (fill in fav feature here) ... That would have sold really well too. And if now two years after that they dropped a 4K, cLOG, GPS/Wifi, in body stabilized, more AF points, 5D5 (or whatever feature turns your gears) that would sell well too. And perhaps the 5D3 would be a bit cheaper given the variants.
> 
> I can't see a version of that which alienates the current Canon shooter, but I could see it bringing more people over to Canon.



If Canon adopted a Sony-like model of pushing new tech aggressively out to field in quick succession, the following would happen:


They'd have to design more cameras per year. That would take more people and money, or if they didn't pay for that, the quality of those offerings would suffer.
They'd build fewer of each of those cameras as the lifecycle will be shorter. Costs would increase.
Longtime Canon users accustomed to making infrequent large investments on bigger ticket items will get serious buyers' remorse when the product they sunk $3500 into is one-upped 18-24 months later. Over time, those folks will keep their money in their pockets longer to avoid being burned on a new offering. Canon would have a harder time maintaining high prices.

I'm not hating on innovation -- I'm just stating that Canon would be foolish to leave their 'slow' and very predictable model. Mirrorless isn't stealing their business. Nikon isn't stealing any of their business. Why change?

- A


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## Woody (May 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> I'm not hating on innovation -- I'm just stating that Canon would be foolish to leave their 'slow' and very predictable model. Mirrorless isn't stealing their business. Nikon isn't stealing any of their business. Why change?
> - A



Indeed. If BCNRanking (for Japan market only) is any indication, Canon seems to be going from strength to strength in their grip on the weakening ILC (interchangeable lens camera) market. Sony's profits probably stem mostly from their sensors (for camera handphone and ILCs).


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## unfocused (May 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> ...folks will keep their money in their pockets longer to avoid being burned on a new offering.



I think this is a very important point. I would not be surprised,to learn that Canon has done market research and already determined what is the optimum time between releases. It may seem counterintuitive but I strongly suspect that too short of a cycle could actually lead to people extending their purchase cycles. if the cycle is too short you can end up paralyzing buyers, who end up frozen in place because the next model is always just around the corner.

But, the most important factor may simply be the development cycle. It's entirely possible that it takes more than two years to design, develop and produce new generations of key components.


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## romanr74 (May 5, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



Wasn't it you posting: "Obviously did not... Lots of 5DII owners did not upgrade. Forums - including this one - are full of 5DII-owners scratching their heads while they wait." How is this not claiming numbers and others peoples feelings knowledge which isn't there....?


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## romanr74 (May 5, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



Even more hilarious:

In the same post (1) you claim you have no sales numbers: "I did not make any statement about sales numbers. ... I have none." and (2) you know that "Canon DSLR sales dropped like a rock in the years after the 5DIII was launched." Can you try to make your mind whether or not you you believe you know something about their sales, if not stop making such claims, if yes bring some evidence with you claims?


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## Drum (May 5, 2016)

There must be a new Nikon around the corner, the D810 and 750 were both announced in 2014, and OMG the D610 is well overdue a replacement. Never mind a new 5d- How can we all live with such old tech? : : : :


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



Actually, Maiaibing is correct on the overall dSLR sales, since CIPA data show a big drop while Canon's market share went up only slightly, and that means Canon dSLR sales dropped significantly.

Canon doens't publish model-specific sales data, but they did state that the 5DIII sold well, and given the other evidence out there it's safe to say that Maiaibing is wrong in suggesting that the 5DIII did not sell well (i.e. if he want's to claim something different from Canon, he'd better have data to back up calling them liars, and he's already admitted to having none.


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## StudentOfLight (May 5, 2016)

Observation:
DSLR sales are dropping

Possible reasons:
1. The market for new DSLRs is saturated
2. Used cameras are more accessible than a new camera and there is no shortage of supply of used DSLRs.
3. Any DSLR produced in the past 5 years can deliver high image quality. (Now avail. 2nd-hand)
4. DSLR owners are happy with performance of their current camera
5. Current DSLRs are durable goods that don't need to be replaced every 6 months
6. (Value of Additional features) < (cost of upgrade)
7. Mirror-less is killing DSLR sales...
8. Cellphones are killing DSLR sales...
9. etc...

Is falling DSLR sales really a problem?


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## ahsanford (May 5, 2016)

Drum said:


> There must be a new Nikon around the corner, the D810 and 750 were both announced in 2014, and OMG the D610 is well overdue a replacement.



+1. It's amazing to think that we still haven't need a Nikon D820 (or D900?) with that A7R II sensor in it. It makes you wonder if the follow up to the D810 will have a Nikon sensor in it instead of a Sony.

- A


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## Azathoth (May 5, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



Canon is #2 brand at Flickr (#1 is Apple, Nikon is #4, Sony #5)
5D mk3 is #1 Canon camera

https://www.flickr.com/cameras
https://www.flickr.com/cameras/canon


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## Maiaibing (May 5, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > I did not make any statement about sales numbers. In fact my question already makes your question obviously superfluous. I have none - and therefore I do not make such claims.
> ...



Saying lots of 5DII owners did not upgrade is not making any claim about the number of 5DIII sales.

Its a claim related to a discussion whether or not the 5DIII was a significant upgrade to the 5DII (and here many did not upgrade because they were not convinced the 5DIII was worth it - myself included).


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## Maiaibing (May 5, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> Even more hilarious:
> 
> In the same post (1) you claim you have no sales numbers: "I did not make any statement about sales numbers. ... I have none." and (2) you know that "Canon DSLR sales dropped like a rock in the years after the 5DIII was launched." Can you try to make your mind whether or not you you believe you know something about their sales, if not stop making such claims, if yes bring some evidence with you claims?



Your lack of logic sense is such that I will stop with this comment as this is a complete waste of time:

The _*fact *_- see Canon investor relations for the numbers - that Canon DSLR sales collapsed in the years after the release of the 5DIII is well documented by Canon itself. 

However, how much or how little this was due to 5DIII sales we do not know as Canon very carefully guards its specific camera model sales. Which is why I avoid making any claims about 5DIII sales.

So nothing illogical or strange with what I wrote here or elsewhere - only sticking closely to known facts and trying to avoid making unfounded claims.


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## Mr. Milo (May 5, 2016)

I'm speaking as a 5D Mark II owner. I have no interest in the 5DIII. I'm looking at the 5DIV as a videographer, not a photographer. The video capabilities will definitely be good as it was officially noted somewhere here. 

-4K is a given. At this point, it's not maybe. This camera has to have it.
-120 FPS for 1080p is hopefully true. 
-1080p is still great right now meaning indie filmmakers have absolutely nothing to worry about. I hope that 1080p mode is 10 bit. 
-Also it will have DPAF. That's great.
-C-log. That's the big one for me. Got to have this in. Sony has no prob putting their s-log in their stuff so I don't know why Canon has problems. It's not even in the 1DX Mark II right now so I have doubts.

Photographers will be disappointed since 5DIV is not a monumental leap, but it's still better than 5DIII. Time will tell when the specs are officially announced. If I was strictly a photographer going by the rumors now, I would not buy it. I'd get the 5DSR and invest in more lenses.


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## Luxter (May 5, 2016)

Mr. Milo said:


> If I was strictly a photographer going by the rumors now, I would not buy it. I'd get the 5DSR and invest in more lenses.



So you actually think the MKIV will be more expensive than the 5DSR?

If that is the case, I should considering getting a MKIII instead of waiting.


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## romanr74 (May 5, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



Did you read my post at all? 

Btw I myself did upgrade from 5DII to 5DIII and overall I do consider it an extremely worthwile upgrade on basically every possible aspect of a DSLR - many things never ever discussed here. If the 5DIV will be a similarly broad improvement I'm clearly in...


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## Mr. Milo (May 5, 2016)

Luxter said:


> Mr. Milo said:
> 
> 
> > If I was strictly a photographer going by the rumors now, I would not buy it. I'd get the 5DSR and invest in more lenses.
> ...



No.


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> However, how much or how little this was due to 5DIII sales we do not know as Canon very carefully guards its specific camera model sales. Which is why I avoid making any claims about 5DIII sales.



The actual unit numbers, yes. But Canon stated in more than one analyst call that 5DIII sales were strong, and you're suggesting the opposite. In addition, there are plenty of anecdotal data, like the fact that as of right now the 5DIII is the best-selling FF camera dSLR on Amazon.com, and the 8th best-selling dSLR overall.


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## pierlux (May 5, 2016)

I thought I was one of the few 5D II owners who didn't upgrade to the III... Now I'm not so sure I'm in a clear minority anymore.


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## kaihp (May 5, 2016)

StudentOfLight said:


> Observation:
> DSLR sales are dropping
> 
> Possible reasons:


(snippage)

9. Potential buyers have less disposable income for their (expensive) hobby
10. Potential buyers are concerned enough about the general economic future to avoid expensive nice-to-have purchases


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## timcz (May 6, 2016)

So the more I spend reading about the 5dsR I'm realising how much I'm actually really wanting one and might end up being the answer for me...

But will still wait to see what the 5d4 brings - the extra DR would be nice but my mk3 is still very capable I find.


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## Zv (May 6, 2016)

timcz said:


> So the more I spend reading about the 5dsR I'm realising how much I'm actually really wanting one and might end up being the answer for me...
> 
> But will still wait to see what the 5d4 brings - the extra DR would be nice but my mk3 is still very capable I find.



If you don't find the MKIII limiting in any way for your style of photography then the 5DSr will be a more than adequate upgrade. Right now the prices are good, the camera is tried and tested, has great resolution and improved DR over the MKIII. 

You could be waiting a while for the MKIV and when it comes it'll be way more expensive. 

The whole DR thing is blown out of proportion anyway IMO. Cameras that worked just fine a few years ago are suddenly inadequate? Lack of DR wasn't holding us back before, was it?


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## timcz (May 6, 2016)

Zv said:


> timcz said:
> 
> 
> > So the more I spend reading about the 5dsR I'm realising how much I'm actually really wanting one and might end up being the answer for me...
> ...



My thoughts exactly!

Sadly though, price is still $5000 AUD here for a 5dsR.


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## Zv (May 6, 2016)

timcz said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > timcz said:
> ...



Australian prices, ouch!! You guys do tend to get a raw deal with camera gear but even then 5 grand is a bit much! That's a p--- take. How much is a 1DX I wonder? 

Grey market??


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## Mark66 (May 7, 2016)

We just had a long conversation with the marketing chief of a major European country (whom one of my mates knows well) and he told as that literally *everything* in the press and on rumor sites is bs. There is no point in waiting for a Mark IV, they are not going to undermine themselves anytime soon with a body that has half the price-tag of their own professional cameras.
We have all the Canon glass that we're used to and that in the past years helped us define our style. But there seems to be no way whatsoever. So yes, we insisted _a lot_ with the guy, asking 1000 questions and at the end begging him to let us know something pleeeze because for the two projects we're about to do this summer a Mark IV would be the perfect camera even if still with bugs and issues. But the answer was a straight no, there won't be anything for the time being only remotely close to a revamped Mark III with better specs. 
PS: I created an ID here only to write this post. It'll be the first and the last. And I see us - my mates and my company - already thinking about changing platform, even with all the glass and for the first time in a decade. Cheers.


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## timcz (May 7, 2016)

Zv said:


> timcz said:
> 
> 
> > Zv said:
> ...



1dx2 is listed as $8800 here I believe. 

Grey market a 5dsr looks around $4400 aud. Makes it a bit more tempting!


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## Mr. Milo (May 7, 2016)

Mark66 said:


> We just had a long conversation with the marketing chief of a major European country (whom one of my mates knows well) and he told as that literally *everything* in the press and on rumor sites is bs.



Dismissed. This is one of those "my uncle knows the grandfather who knows a dude with a curly mustache within Canon..."



Mark66 said:


> There is no point in waiting for a Mark IV, they are not going to undermine themselves anytime soon with a body that has half the price-tag of their own professional cameras.



This is your opinion, right? This is my money and I can do whatever I want. The Mark IV is coming out later in the year. There is no rush and leaves me more time to build up my money. It fits what I need if the camera comes close to half of what I'm thinking. I don't want Sony or Nikon.




Mark66 said:


> We have all the Canon glass that we're used to and that in the past years helped us define our style. But there seems to be no way whatsoever. So yes, we insisted _a lot_ with the guy, asking 1000 questions and at the end begging him to let us know something pleeeze because for the two projects we're about to do this summer a Mark IV would be the perfect camera even if still with bugs and issues. But the answer was a straight no, there won't be anything for the time being only remotely close to a revamped Mark III with better specs.



That's correct. It's his career not to reveal anything. You did not ask 1000 questions either. He's not going to stand there and say "nope" 1000 times? Nope. I don't believe it. Also, the Mark IV is not coming out during the summer so we're left to do summer projects without it. Last time I heard, it was an August reveal of the camera until more verified news come out to update us.



Mark66 said:


> PS: I created an ID here only to write this post. It'll be the first and the last. And I see us - my mates and my company - already thinking about changing platform, even with all the glass and for the first time in a decade. Cheers.



Figures. A drive by post. I'm not changing platforms. You can though. Cheers.


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## ahsanford (May 7, 2016)

Mark66 said:


> We just had a long conversation with the marketing chief of a major European country ...



I don't know where to begin with this one, but I'll try:


Shockingly :, rumors are rated here. CR1, like this thread is, is dubious at best, _and everyone here with over 10 posts knows that_. CR2 would be a 'directionally accurate' but a date or item on the spec list might be off. When a CR3 drops, it's effectively a done deal and CR's track record at those is pretty damn good.


Regarding 'undermining pricier rigs' (I presume you are referring to the 1D rigs), this is Canon's constant challenge. Things like 4K vs. no 4K, 10 fps vs. 8 fps vs. 6 fps, etc. are carefully considered before Canon chooses to roll something out. Canon has an uncanny ability of leaving certain things out of lower models so that the higher model's value/price/sales are not undermined.

You may be besties with Commodore Canonpants in whatever country you live in, but that company lives and dies by secrecy and tightly controlled communications -- perhaps like Apple but not quite as militantly strict. You can be damn sure he -- like any test photographer who leaks something -- would be absolutely eviscerated for divulging details of a release.


All in all, I'd be stunned if we didn't see a 5D3 follow up (whatever it's called) announced in this calendar year.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (May 7, 2016)

Mark66 said:


> We just had a long conversation with the marketing chief of a major European country (whom one of my mates knows well) and he told as that literally *everything* in the press and on rumor sites is bs. There is no point in waiting for a Mark IV, they are not going to undermine themselves anytime soon with a body that has half the price-tag of their own professional cameras.
> We have all the Canon glass that we're used to and that in the past years helped us define our style. But there seems to be no way whatsoever. So yes, we insisted _a lot_ with the guy, asking 1000 questions and at the end begging him to let us know something pleeeze because for the two projects we're about to do this summer a Mark IV would be the perfect camera even if still with bugs and issues. But the answer was a straight no, there won't be anything for the time being only remotely close to a revamped Mark III with better specs.
> PS: I created an ID here only to write this post. It'll be the first and the last. And I see us - my mates and my company - already thinking about changing platform, even with all the glass and for the first time in a decade. Cheers.



Rick W, is that you? Or is this one of your 'sources'?


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## pierlux (May 8, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Mark66 said:
> 
> 
> > We just had a long conversation with the marketing chief of a major European country (whom one of my mates knows well) and he told as that literally *everything* in the press and on rumor sites is bs. There is no point in waiting for a Mark IV, they are not going to undermine themselves anytime soon with a body that has half the price-tag of their own professional cameras.
> ...



LOL!



The first and the last? Yes, please. Thanks a lot!!!

About to change platform? Yes, please! Thanks a lot!!!!!!

Sorry folks, I just came home, had a nice time in a pub, It's 3:30 A.M. in Italy, a group of old friends played live music, '60 and '70 hits, had 4 double malt beers (for real!), forgive me if I'm writing something outré. Don't really know how I managed to come home safely (for real!).

Shot about 400 photos, tomorrow I'll have to deal with mocking resolution, ridicolous DR, unbearable noise... you know, I used a revolting 5D Mark *II* :-[ ... Now I read, about my (probable) next camera, that "there won't be anything for the time being only remotely close to a revamped Mark III with better specs"  ...

If you won't see me here anymore, I either committed suicide, or changed platform.

(Farewell)


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## JJF (May 8, 2016)

Mark66 said:


> We just had a long conversation with the marketing chief of a major European country (whom one of my mates knows well) and he told as that literally *everything* in the press and on rumor sites is bs. There is no point in waiting for a Mark IV, they are not going to undermine themselves anytime soon with a body that has half the price-tag of their own professional cameras.
> We have all the Canon glass that we're used to and that in the past years helped us define our style. But there seems to be no way whatsoever. So yes, we insisted _a lot_ with the guy, asking 1000 questions and at the end begging him to let us know something pleeeze because for the two projects we're about to do this summer a Mark IV would be the perfect camera even if still with bugs and issues. But the answer was a straight no, there won't be anything for the time being only remotely close to a revamped Mark III with better specs.
> PS: I created an ID here only to write this post. It'll be the first and the last. And I see us - my mates and my company - already thinking about changing platform, even with all the glass and for the first time in a decade. Cheers.



That makes sense to me, specially since its been 1 year from the release of the 5DS and 5DSR.
It would be too many 5D's in a relatively short time frame.
And of course, Canon wants to sell 1DxII's for a lot more.


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## pierlux (May 8, 2016)

JJF said:


> Mark66 said:
> 
> 
> > We just had a long conversation with the marketing chief of a major European country (whom one of my mates knows well) and he told as that literally *everything* in the press and on rumor sites is bs. There is no point in waiting for a Mark IV, they are not going to undermine themselves anytime soon with a body that has half the price-tag of their own professional cameras.
> ...



Makes sense, because 1D series and 5D series are direct competitors, of course :. As well as 50 MP and 50/2 MP cameras... Oh, well...

Sorry man, didn't mean to be harsh, but...


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## Ozarker (May 9, 2016)

justsomedude said:


> RickSpringfield said:
> 
> 
> > Its true. You can be creative without technology. But couldn't you be more creative with better technology? Even the artists brush evolved over time.
> ...



Except that bellows cameras are a technology also. Pinholes too.


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## Simon Young (May 11, 2016)

I've just had a friend of mine (who works for Canon) suggest that although they've had no "official" info, his Rep said the 5d4 will be at photokina this year and he hinted at 32mp with 24mp mode. He hadn't heard anything about a new battery though.


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## unfocused (May 11, 2016)

Simon Young said:


> ... he hinted at 32mp with 24mp mode.



If true, that will mean I'm definitely getting the 1D X II.


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## tron (May 11, 2016)

unfocused said:


> Simon Young said:
> 
> 
> > ... he hinted at 32mp with 24mp mode.
> ...


I wouldn't worry yet! I am sure that a friend of a friend of a friend would tell otherwise 8)


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