# Canon EOS 6D Mark II Talk [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 9, 2015)

```
Specification lists this detailed about a camera a few months away are rarely accurate, but we’re posting it for the purpose of discussion. These specifications come from an unknown source.</p>
<p>What’s most interesting is the mention of the camera coming with a version of Android which will replace the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRYOS" target="_blank">DRYOS</a> system developed by Canon that is on the current EOS 6D. What advantages that could have, I’ll let the software techs out there comment in the forum.</p>
<p>I will note that this source said they’d be replacing VXWorks with Android, but Canon switched to DRYOS from VXWorks quite a while ago.</p>
<p>Canon EOS 6D Mark II Rumored Specifications:</p>
<ul>
<li class="p1"><span class="s1">24mp Full Frame CMOS</span></li>
<li class="p1"><span class="s1">1.5 stops better at higher ISO</span></li>
<li class="p1"><span class="s1">Low-light autofocus (centre point) at -5 EV</span></li>
<li class="p1"><span class="s1">Two AF systems are currently being tested or the EOS 6D Mark II and which was chosen is unknown at this time. There will be more AF points than the current camera.</span></li>
<li class="p1">WiFi with NFC and GPS</li>
<li class="p1"><span class="s1">Wireless battery charging with the Qi standard</span></li>
<li class="p1"><span class="s1">Internally Canon switches from VxWorks (Could have meant DRYOS) to an Android-based embedded OS, 6D Mark II will be the first Android-based camera from Canon.</span></li>
<li class="p1"><span class="s1">Dual-pixel autofocus technology</span></li>
<li class="p1"><span class="s1">Touchscreen</span></li>
<li class="p1"><span class="s1">Swivel LCD</span></li>
<li class="p1"><span class="s1">Will ship in a new box design in gold colour.</span></li>
</ul>
<p>Again, this is a CR1 rumor and we’re posting it more for the interesting discussion that could come from the potential software changes that are reported here. This comes from a completely unknown source, but it’s plausible enough to not be CR0.</p>
<p><b>*UPDATE*</b></p>
<p>It looks like the source of these specifications is from a <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56451436">thread on DPReview</a>.</p>
```


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## dufflover (Sep 9, 2015)

If it's still meant to sit below the 5's, an FF equivalent of the 'ol 7D/70D 19pt AF system is my bet. Could be completely "new" in terms of development but that's what I think the end result will look like, compared to the much more complicated systems on the 5D3/1's. Always might've considered a "FF 70D" to be a next step for me as I use the flippy screen + DPAF in combo a lot with my 70D, but I have a feeling they might leave the buffer and fps down the low end to keep that differentiation with the upper models.


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## Maximilian (Sep 9, 2015)

Hmm!

Sounds like some really interesting detail innovations. 

The android thing of course is something really big - if true.
That'll open possibilites one couldn't think of today.
_
Edit: To good and bad. Consider viruses and anit virus scanners_ :


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## OmarSV11 (Sep 9, 2015)

Gimme 1/200 sync speed, more autofocus points, and I might upgrade my 6D or get the mk2 as main body.


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## meywd (Sep 9, 2015)

I don't think the wireless charging will included on a high end camera before a rebel, and the same for Android, as for the benefits, apps and easier customization are the first things that come to the mind, a stable Magic Lantern will become a reality.


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## raydee (Sep 9, 2015)

I strongly doubt the Android switch, but it will be a more than welcome change if camera api functions will be exposed to android apps. 
A full frame camera with a swivel touchscreen LCD will be the prime reason to upgrade for me... bring it on!


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## Ladislav (Sep 9, 2015)

The last thing I want in my DSLR is Android! Please don't do that.


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## zim (Sep 9, 2015)

_Will ship in a new box design in gold colour._

I'd treat a lot of this with the same humour, a few were almost guaranteed the day after the 6D1 specs were announced


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## aclectasis (Sep 9, 2015)

Sounds like horseshit.


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## brianleighty (Sep 9, 2015)

raydee said:


> I strongly doubt the Android switch, but it will be a more than welcome change if camera api functions will be exposed to android apps.
> A full frame camera with a swivel touchscreen LCD will be the prime reason to upgrade for me... bring it on!


Yup, fullscreen on a full frame is my dream as well. Here's hoping that comes true. Perhaps they'll follow the 7D Mark ii lead and give us clean HDMI output with audio as well. Would make a sweet camera then.


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## Bernard (Sep 9, 2015)

Will it have interchangeable focusing screens? The 6D and 1Dx are the only two models that offer this key feature.

As far as I'm concerned, a camera that can't be focused by eye (like the 5D3 and 5Ds) may as well be mirrorless. 

I realize that having interchangeable screen on a high-megapixel SLR costs more, but the real choice is between offering a true SLR with a decent screen, or losing market share until there's nothing left.


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## MattBromage (Sep 9, 2015)

Not keen on the swivel LCD as it could be a potential weak point structurally. Saying this, I don't know what the fault rate on current DSLRs with movable LCD screens are. However, every camera I've used has had a standard fixed LCD and there's never been an issue. Then again, I look after my camera and treat it like a newborn baby! 8)


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## cerealito (Sep 9, 2015)

As a guy that works integrating Android builds everyday, I *really really hope this is not true.*
Just imagine:

Stupid android background processes eating up the battery
being worried about my privacy because a firmware update may or may not send data to google
malware being distributed on back-doors or vulnerabilities and such.

If you ever experienced ANY kind of instability in your phone or the apps it runs, try to imagine how frustrating it would be to have the same kind of nasty bugs in your canon camera. Are you willing to lose a shot because 'the review app' just crashed on you and you have to 'kill it' using the task manager?

Android has it's place in the phone industry because it supports a very large set of devices and peripherals, but it does so in exchange for slow integration of changes, fragmentation of the OS. Android is great for general-purpose devices (such as smartphones), but for specific-purpose devices nothing trumps specific-purpose operating systems.

When was the last time your camera's DryOS (or any of its apps) crashed on you?
Can you say the same about your android phone (and its apps)?

Time and again I hear how good the ergonomics of Canon are (this includes the OS). Compare them to those of Sony or Samsung (that have already started using android). 
*Canon, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.*


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## Orangutan (Sep 9, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Has Canon eliminated FPN (fixed pattern noise)?
> Has Canon reduced shadow noise to the levels of Sony/Nikon?
> If Canon can do the above, will the IQ at base ISO equal that of Sony/Nikon in both noise and DR?



It would not be cost-effective for Canon to put major new sensor tech in a 6D, which is a budget FF camera.

Dilbert, did you ever buy your A7-series mirrorless? If so, how do you like it so far?


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## bf (Sep 9, 2015)

+1 for better focus system, touch and Swivel LCD! 
On Android: I don't see any benefit so perhaps it's better to avoid the hassle!?


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## rfdesigner (Sep 9, 2015)

*24mp Full Frame CMOS*
OK

*1.5 stops better at higher ISO*
would have to be lower noise and back illuminated, unless of course this is JPEG, so better noise reduction processing in camera.

*Low-light autofocus (centre point) at -5 EV*
only likely with very very slow AF at -5EV.. if it does it I'll be pleasantly surprised.

*Two AF systems are currently being tested or the EOS 6D Mark II and which was chosen is unknown at this time. There will be more AF points than the current camera.*
It needs them.. just 9 points as good at the 6D centre point would be nice, so long as the spread is there.

*WiFi with NFC and GPS*
Make it synch to a portable wifi drive for live backups!

*Wireless battery charging with the Qi standard*
Don't need it.. how hard is it to put a battery in a charger?

*Internally Canon switches from VxWorks (Could have meant DRYOS) to an Android-based embedded OS, 6D Mark II will be the first Android-based camera from Canon.*
Sounds like a can of worms... 

*Dual-pixel autofocus technology*
nice

*Touchscreen*
only if I can turn it off when I want to and button navigating is as easy as it currently is, and it doesn't put the price up.

*Swivel LCD*
No.. I want it robust, swivel LCDs are a real vulnerability.

*Will ship in a new box design in gold colour.*
Will only buy if it the gold tone has at least 30 bits of colour depth!


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## tomscott (Sep 9, 2015)

If Canon did implement android it would be a very streamlined customised version by Canon. Ensuring all of the above do not happen, I'm assuming the thought of doing this would enable 3rd party apps to be in stalled which would make the camera so much more flexible as a tool.

In terms of the rotating screen I wish people would get off the high horse about it. Its so annoying trying to compose from a low or high angle with a flat screen. Try composing an image with a gorilla pod on the floor you literally have to lay down to get to the same level makes creative shooting much easier with a rotating screen unless all you guys do is sit at eye level. 

Ye it may be a weaker point but if it breaks it will be my fault and il have it fixed or buy another one. Babying gear is a fools errand, the gear is just gear get out and shoot. If the camera gets scratched and marked its paying its way. I don't get these people who spend all this money on gear and let them sit as museum pieces.


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## Maximilian (Sep 9, 2015)

cerealito said:


> As a guy that works integrating Android builds everyday, I *really really hope this is not true.*
> Just imagine:
> 
> Stupid android background processes eating up the battery
> ...


Personally I agree a lot to this. 

But I can also understand Canon trying to go the multi media way trying to connect DSLRs to the www.
And also trying to get their piece of "big data" business :-\
(Not that this would be my opinion)


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## Proscribo (Sep 9, 2015)

rfdesigner said:


> ...
> *Swivel LCD*
> No.. I want it robust, swivel LCDs are a real vulnerability.
> ...


Now, what makes a well-designed swivel screen any more vulnerable to damage vs. fixed?


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## rosaklebhead (Sep 9, 2015)

> Two AF systems are currently being tested or the EOS 6D Mark II and which was chosen is unknown at this time. There will be more AF points than the current camera.



I wonder if this will be similar to the new system being used in the C300 Mark II. It's pretty nice and intuitive. Helps with precision focusing.


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## JohanCruyff (Sep 9, 2015)

Proscribo said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


 
+1. 
There are a lot of complaints about swivel LCDs when reading specifications, but in real life they doesn't seem to be more vulnerable than fixed ones.


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## Djaaf (Sep 9, 2015)

JohanCruyff said:


> +1.
> There are a lot of complaints about swivel LCDs when reading specifications, but in real life they doesn't seem to be more vulnerable than fixed ones.



Yeah, that's something we do see a lot on the forums... 
I had a 60D for a few years, though, and the swivel screen was still functionning, even after being drenched in Scotland and Iceland and frozen during the ski season in the French alps. 
I since migrated to the 6D and each time I have to take a shot on a tripod, I do miss my 60D... 

And additionnally, it's a lot more difficult to scratch the swivel screen than to scratch a fixed one... 
I guess issues with the internal cabling of the swivel screen are more likely to appear after a few years than with a fixed screen, but I have yet to see it happen. And apart from that, except a fall with the swivel screen deployed, I don't see any added vulnerability. 

Djaaf.


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## Don Haines (Sep 9, 2015)

Gee.... a rumour based on a thread from DpReview..... what are we coming to????


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## GmwDarkroom (Sep 9, 2015)

rfdesigner said:


> *Wireless battery charging with the Qi standard*
> Don't need it.. how hard is it to put a battery in a charger?


Indeed. Wireless charging as a tech is a logically stupid, wasteful abstraction layer.


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## EOBeav (Sep 9, 2015)

Is a metal body too much to ask for? If it is, I might as well just hang on to my 5DII...


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## vjlex (Sep 9, 2015)

The Android rumor doesn't sound even remotely true. As much as I prefer Android on my phone, I prefer Canon's extremely stable, rocksteady OS in my cameras. It would just be an excuse to have those horrible facebook and twitter icons showing up in more places I don't want them to.


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## infared (Sep 9, 2015)

cerealito said:


> As a guy that works integrating Android builds everyday, I *really really hope this is not true.*
> Just imagine:
> 
> Stupid android background processes eating up the battery
> ...



So ....I do not have a smart phone (I have a wireless phone...but not web, etc.). I like to be where I am, not acting out my addiction in public. ) To each his own. But ...i am dumb about this stuff....You sound like the right guy to ask...so...could you help me out here. If the camera has an Android OS...that will exclude mac users from utilizing there phones, iPads, etc. for remote control..etc. ...and obviously the whole menu system would change, too. Is that correct? 
I am a Mack guy....(no iPhone, though)....but this would be a very foreign menu to me ...right?
Thanks for the help.


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## wunderpink (Sep 9, 2015)

The articulating screen would already make it to my dream camera for landscapes and travel.

The lack of articulating screens in Canon FF DSLRs bothers me much more than the tiny difference in DR compared to the Sonys.


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## MTSG (Sep 9, 2015)

well, I just looking on my 6D... and so far I'd change nothing or almost nothing.

-24mp Full Frame CMOS: still in the range of common aspects
-1.5 stops better at higher ISO: always welcome any improvement in that direction
-Low-light autofocus (centre point) at -5 EV: ok, as line above
-Two AF systems are currently being tested or the EOS 6D Mark II and which was chosen is unknown at this time. There will be more AF points than the current camera: just do it
-WiFi with NFC and GPS: ...? I have it, but NFC? may be in future, however I will not pay using 6D2
-Wireless battery charging with the Qi standard: lot of whistle blowing everywhere about something good, just do it, hoever we can live without it
-Android: anybody who works on it for longer time may have same, negative opinion like me, live it for tabs and phones
-Dual-pixel autofocus technology: ok
-Touchscreen: if it will work properly in humid environment why not
-Swivel LCD: as other comments, many bodies have it, I no need it
-Will ship in a new box design in gold colour: ok, hope not pink...

wish list?
-1080/60p
-keep HANDHELD NIGHT SCENE (auto assembl. 4pics)
-view good lenses (primes), especially replaced oldest 

MTSG


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## emag (Sep 9, 2015)

Higher sync speed would be very nice, as would a swivel/articulating LCD. Redesigned box???? Huh?


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## wunderpink (Sep 9, 2015)

JohanCruyff said:


> Proscribo said:
> 
> 
> > rfdesigner said:
> ...



For me, a tiltable screen would be just so great for landscape work. It makes composing very comfortable, even when the camera is sitting on a small tripod or very near to the ground (for cool perspectives).

I would be willing to give a lot of features of my 6D away for a tiltable screen.


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## mdflare (Sep 9, 2015)

Djaaf said:


> JohanCruyff said:
> 
> 
> > +1.
> ...



*+++1.000.000 on swivel screen*
I too had the 60D before the 6D and if you had that screen once, you see thousand reasons to miss it. If you are using the camera in wired positions near-ground or above your head the normal screen is just beyond crap. I have never noticed a vulnerability of the swivel screen. It felt sturdy like all other parts of the camera. You can even fold the screen inwards to protect the screen when transporting or when you just want to use the viewfinder. 

I would hate it if they put it in the 6D2 because it would be 1 more thing I would want it for. And I don´t want to buy a new camera because nothing is broken with the current one 

If they do a new kind of *operating* system in. Its ok, as long as they put all the features in that ML provides beyond the current limited canon features.

They should try *fix the GPS this time*. With the current 6D its ultra-slow, imprecise and a battery drainer :-\. Because of all that I don´t use it. It just a pain in the ass to wait for minutes to get a GPS location and in the Mountains I had it once where the position took some more Minutes to get the exact height right (slowly correcting the value with every new measurement).

*Touchscreen *might be a requirement for new OS and might be usefull for something.

* 8) Gold Box 8)* ,… wow allways wanted a golden Box covered in dust laying in the basement. 

*DualPixel Autofocus*. Only n1ce if they fix the 6D Video in the first place. And maybe they notice that the current state of the art is 4K and not FullHD in its broken state onboard the 6D.
The castrated video with its ugly as hell lineskipping in video (moire :'(). Its so ugly I would dare to call the video functions of the 6D broken at current state if you don´t use alternative Video output. What Luck I don´t do much video, so it does not bother me that much. But I hate the part that I regard the 6D as not having video at all because its output is more ugly than any smartphone.

*Better at high iso ? *
I wouldn´t mind but: I would like to have more data in the shadows at base-ISO. 
It brings :'( to my eyes to see what current sony sensors can recover out of seemingly black shadows.

*Wireless battery charging? ???*
Mhh I can´t see an advantage of that. You have to have the loading surface with you to put the camera on it. So nothing is won. 
Its always slower as regular charging too. Normal chargers are inexpensive workhorses and you can load a heck of a lot of them at the same time. Why introduce a weight adding feature to the camera that only loads 1 battery at a slower rate.

Maybe these specs with android OS,wireless loading, NFC and a gold Box are specs that belong to a new *canon-smartphone*. 

I am expecting to be *surprised and confused* at the same time when the real specs surface


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## gsealy (Sep 9, 2015)

MattBromage said:


> Not keen on the swivel LCD as it could be a potential weak point structurally. Saying this, I don't know what the fault rate on current DSLRs with movable LCD screens are. However, every camera I've used has had a standard fixed LCD and there's never been an issue. Then again, I look after my camera and treat it like a newborn baby! 8)



I have this on my t4i and it is very useful. I use it a lot for all sorts of things and the LCD structure has never even been suspect. It is solid. Once nice thing is that when not in use the LCD faces the camera, so it is protected. A lot of the time I reverse the LCD screen and shoot live view with an attached viewfinder. Then of course, you can shoot all kinds of angles easier, such as holding the camera over the head.


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## NancyP (Sep 9, 2015)

Fantasy camera design - what a game!
I would like the swivel screen, because on-the-ground macro is a PITA. The 6D is a great macro camera otherwise. Also - no more nose prints on the LCD! I would strongly prefer that they keep the interchangeable screens because my 6D has the Eg-S now, much better. Focus systems - meh, nice but it wouldn't be my action camera. Most of my work on 6D is manual focus. 1.5 stops better RAW noise performance without pattern noise - that would be thrilling for astrophotography, where one is scraping together scarce photons. The swivel screen and better RAW noise on high ISO would be sorely tempting to me to retire my 6D. 24 MP is fine.I am not printing huge.


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## LDS (Sep 9, 2015)

If Canon switch to a general purpose OS for its camera, I'll switch to anything that doesn't follow that silly path. Any instrument that has a specific task - in this case taking image - needs software fully aimed at that task, or you risk to lose the image because the OS thinks something else needs attention in a given moment.

Android is not a real-time OS, it is designed to handle different competiting tasks at the same time, and any of them may be important for the user. It's good for general purpose devices, not for dedicated one - just look at how bad are actual smartphones to make and receive phone calls.

Also, it's a very vulnerable OS from a security point of view, and if the camera becomes "connected", that's another issue. People may already steal your photos from your computer, would you like to allow them to steal them directly from your camera?

"Consumerization" is very bad for cameras, although someone could think it's good just because of the eye candies...


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## Hector1970 (Sep 9, 2015)

Android or some sort of Apple / Windows based operating software is inevitable in the long run.
The cameras will need to be very compatible in the future. Wireless backup off the card to a computer / hard disks needs to be seamless and easy to do, distributing your pictures to Facebook or website.. Your camera could tell you the weather, sun location , Hyperfocal distance, location maps etc. The screens are almost big enough to comfortably do that.


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## bf (Sep 9, 2015)

I don't worry if a swivel LCD might not be rugged enough. 6D is not a professional camera. I might worry if it was a 1d, but I prefer a touchscreen swivel LCD for a 6D.


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## jd7 (Sep 9, 2015)

Personally, I'm not enthusiastic about a tilt screen or touch screen. I'd much rather a move towards 5DIII/7DII controls and ergonomics than 70D controls and ergonomics, but with the body size kept about the same as the current 6D. I rather doubt I'm going to get what I'd really like though!

AF improvements, higher flash sync, slightly faster FPS, and any sensor improvements would all be welcome


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## Etienne (Sep 9, 2015)

MattBromage said:


> Not keen on the swivel LCD as it could be a potential weak point structurally. Saying this, I don't know what the fault rate on current DSLRs with movable LCD screens are. However, every camera I've used has had a standard fixed LCD and there's never been an issue. Then again, I look after my camera and treat it like a newborn baby! 8)



I've had several cameras with swivel LCDs, and not one has broken. In a fast moving ENG environment that would change. But the 6D is not a camera for ENG, sports etc. 
I would absolutely love a full swivel screen! Not just the flip up kind, make it do back-flips and twirls!


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## Etienne (Sep 9, 2015)

tomscott said:


> If Canon did implement android it would be a very streamlined customised version by Canon. Ensuring all of the above do not happen, I'm assuming the thought of doing this would enable 3rd party apps to be in stalled which would make the camera so much more flexible as a tool.
> 
> In terms of the rotating screen I wish people would get off the high horse about it. Its so annoying trying to compose from a low or high angle with a flat screen. Try composing an image with a gorilla pod on the floor you literally have to lay down to get to the same level makes creative shooting much easier with a rotating screen unless all you guys do is sit at eye level.
> 
> Ye it may be a weaker point but if it breaks it will be my fault and il have it fixed or buy another one. Babying gear is a fools errand, the gear is just gear get out and shoot. If the camera gets scratched and marked its paying its way. I don't get these people who spend all this money on gear and let them sit as museum pieces.



Agree 100%. If you are in ENG, shooting protests and war zones, get a stronger camera like the 5D or 1D series. The 6D was never meant to be a tank.


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## cerealito (Sep 9, 2015)

infared said:


> So ....I do not have a smart phone (I have a wireless phone...but not web, etc.). I like to be where I am, not acting out my addiction in public. ) To each his own. But ...i am dumb about this stuff....You sound like the right guy to ask...so...could you help me out here. If the camera has an Android OS...that will exclude mac users from utilizing there phones, iPads, etc. for remote control..etc. ...and obviously the whole menu system would change, too. Is that correct?
> I am a Mack guy....(no iPhone, though)....but this would be a very foreign menu to me ...right?
> Thanks for the help.



No, I do not think any Android device (in this case a Camera) would make it impossible to be remote controlled through an iPhone or iPad. There's nothing inherent to Android that prevents it from 'talking' to other operating systems. It's just a matter of writing the appropriate software to allow this communication. Even if Canon would chose the Android path, they would still have good reasons to allow remote controlling from Apple devices.

Regarding the menu system, yes, if they switched operating systems the menus would most likely change instantly as a consequence...


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## Adelino (Sep 9, 2015)

I know I am in the minority but I would like to see more scene modes, more like a 70d or even a Rebel. I am not a pro shooter but I do want a full frame camera. NO WAY to Android that would cause all sorts of problems. Bump ups in all major specs , 24mp, better high ISO, better low ISO noise, better DYNAMIC RANGE please. more focus points. Or maybe I am asking for a sun 6D for us non pro full frame wanters


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## Famateur (Sep 9, 2015)

raydee said:


> A full frame camera with a swivel touchscreen LCD will be the prime reason to upgrade for me... bring it on!



Ditto!!!


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## Famateur (Sep 9, 2015)

I keep hearing people talk about potential durability issues with the articulating screen. Three points:

#1) This is the 6D. It's an "entry level" camera and not meant for rugged use.

#2) I hear the complaints from people who don't use articulating screens on Canon bodies. From people who DO use them, the comments are pretty much unanimous in praise for long-term durability and practicality for shooting in awkward positions or angles. Having now had three bodies with articulating screens and none failing so far (knock on wood) through pouring rain, desert sand, coastal salt spray, snowboarding wipe-outs -- even blood and hair from boning out an elk by myself -- and just about everything in between. Even skeptics, once they use it, find the articulating screen quite helpful.

#3) If you don't want it, leave it folded up, screen out. Then it's just like a fixed screen in terms of wear/breakage risk.

Two things kept me from getting the 6D: Scarce focus points and no articulating screen. When those two things are addressed, I won't even wait for a sale on Amazon!


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## ahsanford (Sep 9, 2015)

General thoughts:

Android: No. OS fragmentation, background power sucking, etc. are not a good idea for tool that needs to be reliable/stable/consistent, and it's a massive step away from Canon calling the shots menu/organization-wise. Canon's menus aren't sexy _and that's why I love them_. They are intelligently designed, efficient, and photographer-workflow oriented. 

Tilt/Swivel: In these prosumer product lines (like the 70D, let's say), Canon is hosed as the user base straddles two different opinions here. So make a decision either way and p--- off half the market. You will never convince a non-swiveler that it is as robust as a solid/integral screen, and you will never convince a swiveler that a solid screen is best. Canon should consider making the LCD modular and removable (like a cartridge) so that you can you go solid/integral, swap out for a swivel LCD, etc. 

-5 EV and +1.5 stops higher ISO seem unreasonable improvements for Canon, esp. for this price point. I'm not buying this part of the rumor.

DPAF in Canon's _entry-level_ FF rig? I thought it was supposed to be stripped down to keep the entry cost lower. Not buying this either. DPAF will go to the 5D and 1D lines, but not the 6D I think.

All in all, there is far far far too much new in this rumor for it to be taken seriously on aggregate. 

- A


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## siegsAR (Sep 9, 2015)

Very good!

I don't even have something to say to this except bring it on maybe. ;D


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## Etienne (Sep 9, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> General thoughts:
> 
> Android: No. OS fragmentation, background power sucking, etc. are not a good idea for tool that needs to be reliable/stable/consistent, and it's a massive step away from Canon calling the shots menu/organization-wise. Canon's menus aren't sexy _and that's why I love them_. They are intelligently designed, efficient, and photographer-workflow oriented.
> 
> ...



The non-swivellers are like those who complain that their camera has video.
Let's face it, a swivel is really useful.
An added benefit of the swivel not mentioned here is that you can flip the swivel so the LCD is protected. No chance of scratching it or breaking it in a bag etc when it is closed up. And you can use the camera with the LCD closed up, like old-school film.
The durability argument is pure nonsense on this line. Swivel or no swivel, it's not a durable camera ... go get a 5D3.

PS ... I have a 5D3 too ... and I wish it had a swivel.


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## pedro (Sep 9, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> General thoughts:
> 
> Android: No. OS fragmentation, background power sucking, etc. are not a good idea for tool that needs to be reliable/stable/consistent, and it's a massive step away from Canon calling the shots menu/organization-wise. Canon's menus aren't sexy _and that's why I love them_. They are intelligently designed, efficient, and photographer-workflow oriented.
> 
> ...



Could -5 EV and 1.5 stops higher ISO refer to the 1DXII? Or is it just wishlist of someone...?


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## bmwzimmer (Sep 9, 2015)

I'm still holding out hope for some kind of Hybrid Viewfinder (part optical, part EVF). It would be amazing to shoot using an optical finder while having Histogram information on the side. 

Well it looks like we can say goodbye to the partial magnesium body of the 6D and expect a fully PC body like the 70d. That's fine as long as it is lighter and smaller with decent weather sealing/robustness. A 10% reduction in weight and size along with a good Sony like sensor along with a Hybrid Optical/EVF viewfinder is a compelling reason to not jump onto the mirrorless bandwagon.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 9, 2015)

Etienne said:


> The non-swivellers are like those who complain that their camera has video.
> Let's face, a swivel is really useful.
> An added benefit of the swivel not mentioned here is that you can flip the swivel so the LCD is protected. No chance of scratching it or breaking it in a bag etc when it is closed up. And you can use the camera with the LCD closed up, like old-school film.
> The durability argument is pure nonsense on this line. Swivel or no swivel, it's not a durable camera ... go get a 5D3.
> ...



I don't disagree with what you said, but this is not an argument you win with logic. Swivel vs. Non-Swivel is right up there with using UV/Clear filters to protect your lens vs. shooting with naked front elements. There are two camps who will not budge. That's that.

Canon needs to step up and be a leader with this market preference pain-point and let photographers choose the LCD they want and change them out with a universal and secure cartridge-like mount:


Have it come with the solid/integral non-touchscreen module for the base body cost.
Pay an extra $100 at time of purchase and it will instead be kitted with a swivel, touchscreen, or swivel+touchscreen module -- whatever you prefer
_Buy more than one module for different needs at a nice markup for Canon_. Need to record video down low? Grab a swivel module. Working in the arctic? Grab a solid/integral module. Also, FF owners who love their rig _no longer need to drop down to a crappier body just to get a swivel_. They would gladly, gladly pay $300-400 for that. Canon profits and the user is elated at the same time.
A modular mount then would open up the door to third party LCDs, perhaps letterboxed for video, perhaps oversized to view histo and the shot side by side -- the possibilities are endless.

- A


----------



## gggplaya (Sep 9, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> General thoughts:
> 
> Android: No. OS fragmentation, background power sucking, etc. are not a good idea for tool that needs to be reliable/stable/consistent, and it's a massive step away from Canon calling the shots menu/organization-wise. Canon's menus aren't sexy _and that's why I love them_. They are intelligently designed, efficient, and photographer-workflow oriented.



You do have a point here, although i don't think battery sucking is as bad as you say. It'll be worse than current DSLR's, but still better than any mirrorless. 

The real reason i don't think android works is because there is no implementation of android that doesn't take a long time to boot up upon power cycles. So if you take out your battery, you have to do a full boot cycle upon reinsertion. To maintain the OS, it will drain the battery as well. Although without using wifi too much, the bast should last all day long.



ahsanford said:


> Tilt/Swivel: In these prosumer product lines (like the 70D, let's say), Canon is hosed as the user base straddles two different opinions here. So make a decision either way and p--- off half the market. You will never convince a non-swiveler that it is as robust as a solid/integral screen, and you will never convince a swiveler that a solid screen is best. Canon should consider making the LCD modular and removable (like a cartridge) so that you can you go solid/integral, swap out for a swivel LCD, etc.


I don't agree here, the 6D is not a workhorse camera like the 5Dmk3(4). It's for prosumers that want full frame, and shoot non-critical photography. They might use it professionally, but not in an intense environment. I've never damaged any of my swivel screens, and it was nice to use in live view, video shooting, and to see over crowds. 


ahsanford said:


> -5 EV and +1.5 stops higher ISO seem unreasonable improvements for Canon, esp. for this price point. I'm not buying this part of the rumor.


Fully agree here, -5ev would require some unseen and spectacular technology, that's a significant improvement over anything else offered.



ahsanford said:


> DPAF in Canon's _entry-level_ FF rig? I thought it was supposed to be stripped down to keep the entry cost lower. Not buying this either. DPAF will go to the 5D and 1D lines, but not the 6D I think.



I think prosumers need live view focus, which is why it's in the rebel series. I'm not sure they need DPAF like the 70D or 7dMKii, but certainly could uses PDAF pixels on the sensor like the T6i/s.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 9, 2015)

pedro said:


> Could -5 EV and 1.5 stops higher ISO refer to the 1DXII? Or is it just wishlist of someone...?



Nope. See the original post from the CR Admin that started this thread. Those two items are bullet points #2 and #3 for a 6D2 rumor, not the 1DX.

- A


----------



## bmwzimmer (Sep 9, 2015)

pedro said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > General thoughts:
> ...



6D's current max ISO is 102,400
102,400 x 1.5 = 153,600. It will be Noisy as crap but that's Marketing for you. I would expect the ISO performance to be on par to current competitors in this segment which is about 1/3 stop better performance.


----------



## StudentOfLight (Sep 9, 2015)

Etienne said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > General thoughts:
> ...


+1!

I was going to mention this exact point. I believe that the damage you are most likely to suffer on the LCD is from abrasions and not from impact. 

With articulating bodies I tend to be extra cautious with the LCD folded out. With non-articulating LCDs I don't think twice about the LCD and so might be more careless and have ended up with scratches. At least with the 60D I can completely reverse the LCD to protect the viewing surface from abrasions.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 9, 2015)

Swivel Screens and Touch Screens: Both things that some people are rabidly against without ever trying them. 

I have a 70D that I bought for video. Both features are very useful. Touch screen saves an incredible amount of time digging through menus and fiddling with buttons (and you can always use buttons and menus if you want). I've never once accidentally changed anything by hitting the touch screen. Also great for video follow focus. And, like a flip screen, if you don't want to use it, then don't. 

The 70D flip screen is very robust. You'd have to really work at it to break it. Yeah, I suppose if your tripod flips over and the camera crashes onto a bunch of rocks, it could break, but that's probably after a lot of other parts have broken as well. It's actually easier to weather seal a flip screen as the camera body is solid where the screen ordinarily goes. And, it's not like you leave the screen flipped out all the time. If you are using the viewfinder, there is no reason to flip it out.

My only issue with a flip screen on the 5D and 7D would be the loss of real estate on the back and the need to reconfigure buttons.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 9, 2015)

I have to say: this is sure a lot of chatter over some specs that some random person on the web made up.


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 9, 2015)

bmwzimmer said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...


Stops are base 2. 
So 1.5 stops = 2^(1.5)
=2.82
So ISO 102,400 x 2.82 = 290,000
= marketing will round this up to ISO 300,000


----------



## Etienne (Sep 9, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > The non-swivellers are like those who complain that their camera has video.
> ...



I don't see a modular system happening.

I do have a few questions about the Anti-Swivelers. Who are all these photographers who never:

1. Put your camera down low on the ground, especially where it's dirty or wet. Do they just shoot blind, or walk around wet and muddy for the rest of the day? 
2. See over heads, or get a higher perspective. Do they shoot blind here too, or just don't bother with the shot?
3. Place your camera against a wall or tight spot where it's impossible to see the back of the camera. Shoot blind, or just don't bother?
4. Shoot from the waist, or at an odd angle to be discreet

I can't imagine a photographer or videographer that never faces these situations. Maybe if they never leave the studio, but then they wouldn't need durability anyway.


----------



## StudentOfLight (Sep 9, 2015)

unfocused said:


> I have to say: this is sure a lot of chatter over some specs that some random person on the web made up.


I think it just expresses the passion people have for the 6D brand.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 9, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say: this is sure a lot of chatter over some specs that some random person on the web made up.
> ...



I don't have a 6D (a friend of mine does, I use the 5D3), but I'd get a 6D Mk II if it has good video, DPAF, and a touchscreen-flipscreen, I'd even consider an 80D when it comes if it does a good job on those features (assuming great IQ).


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 9, 2015)

bmwzimmer said:


> 6D's current max ISO is 102,400
> 102,400 x 1.5 = 153,600. It will be Noisy as crap but that's Marketing for you. I would expect the ISO performance to be on par to current competitors in this segment which is about 1/3 stop better performance.



I don't think that's what the rumor meant. Usually those sort of claims don't speak to hard firmware governors of what ISO you can use so much as _what the noise performance will be at a given ISO_. 

In other words, the rumor implies: The 6D2 will have similar noise to a 6D set at a 1.5 stops lower ISO level, or an ISO 8000-ish shot on the 6D2 will look as clean as an ISO 3200 shot on a 6D.

And that's why I don't buy that particular rumor. Canon hasn't hit a noise home run over its predecessor like that since maaaaaybe the 5D3. Why on earth should we expect that in an entry level FF rig?

- A


----------



## Etienne (Sep 9, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> bmwzimmer said:
> 
> 
> > 6D's current max ISO is 102,400
> ...



On what the noise improvement means ... exactly!

However, there's no way of knowing whether Canon has made some sort of sensor breakthrough that would improve all their new sensors until the cameras hit the street, so it's not impossible that they have made a huge leap.


----------



## StudentOfLight (Sep 9, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> bmwzimmer said:
> 
> 
> > 6D's current max ISO is 102,400
> ...


I was merely correcting the math originally used with bmwzimmer's approach.

I agree, my expectation is also for quoted improvements to be as you say 8,000 looking like 3,200, not just increasing the digital gain and calling it a tangible improvement.


----------



## SMA SHOOTER (Sep 9, 2015)

Hi,

I'm enthusiastically in the camp of those who prefer fully (!) articulated LCD screens. Cameras with screens that simply hinge up or down seem aimed at people making videos who will always need horizontal images. As a still photographer, I shoot verticals as well as horizontals. Those simple "selfie" screens might as well not be there at all. I have old knees, and using a fully articulated screen (like the one on my original Canon G1X) has allowed me to get many photos that would be very difficult, if not impossible, for me to get with my 6D. Canon doesn't seem to agree, of course; it installs swiveling screens on its "prosumer" cameras but removes them from the pricier models. I was interested in the faster lens on the new G1X II, but was disgusted to find that it has only a simple swiveling screen. No sale, Canon. 

Several commenters here dismiss the 6D as "entry level" or "nonprofessional." What does that mean? Back in the day, New York camera repair guy Marty Forscher used to wish for cameras as strong as hockey pucks, but unless you're really slapping them with sticks, most users would find such cameras overbuilt, overprotected, and probably overpriced. Any camera, from the lowliest Holga to the latest Phase One, can be used in a serious, even a professional way. These are all tools; the users make the difference. If you need to pound nails, buy a hammer!


----------



## unfocused (Sep 9, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say: this is sure a lot of chatter over some specs that some random person on the web made up.
> ...


Yeah, I get that. I just want to remind people that they are debating specs that anyone on this forum could have written with just as much validity. I get the feeling that some folks are actually taking these made-up specs seriously.


----------



## RustyTheGeek (Sep 9, 2015)

cerealito said:


> As a guy that works integrating Android builds everyday, I *really really hope this is not true.*
> Just imagine:
> 
> Stupid android background processes eating up the battery
> ...



*+10 million...*

I have wished for years that my phones, tablets, etc could be as simple and stable as my cameras. (I have NEVER wished my camera could be as unstable and problematic as my phones and tablets.) The camera powers up instantly, never fails and is as reliable as one could expect. It's a CAMERA. There is NO NEED for it to do anything else other than possibly connect to WiFi, etc. On a camera, the interface needs to be as simple, efficient and stable as possible. Android would only serve to waste CPU, memory and screen resources at the cost of DECREASED STABLITY and BATTERY LIFE.

I'm an IT guy and I _hate_ working on my phone. (iPhone or Android, they both suck.)

Other than a marketing gimmick I see so need for Android on a DSLR. Put Android on one P&S for the folks that think it's the coolest thing ever and leave it at that!


----------



## RustyTheGeek (Sep 9, 2015)

unfocused said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



Guys, part of this site is about _rumors_. So it's fun to debate possible features, real or not.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 9, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Canon hasn't hit a noise home run over its predecessor like that since maaaaaybe the 5D3.



That's not true. Not only was the 5DIII a significant improvement over the 5DII, but the 7DII is a huge leap over the original 7D. I'm amazed at how good the higher ISO performance is on the 7DII. Is it in 5DIII territory? No, but it's much closer than I expected. 

And, judging by reports from owners of the 5D S, the higher ISO performance of that camera is also much better than people expected.


----------



## JohanCruyff (Sep 9, 2015)

RustyTheGeek said:


> cerealito said:
> 
> 
> > As a guy that works integrating Android builds everyday, I *really really hope this is not true.*
> ...


I don't remember my ancient B/W mobile (Nokia 3310, maybe) phone ever crashed.
So, let's hope that a Mobile-OS heavily downgraded (without phone calls, 100,000 apps etc.) will be stable as much as a simple, ancient, mobile NOT_SMART phone used to be.


----------



## heptagon (Sep 9, 2015)

1.5 stops better high ISO? In RAW? No way!

In cooked JPEG - quite possible with additional processing power in easy scenes.


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## Famateur (Sep 9, 2015)

SMA SHOOTER said:


> I'm enthusiastically in the camp of those who prefer fully (!) articulated LCD screens.



+1!



SMA SHOOTER said:


> Several commenters here dismiss the 6D as "entry level" or "nonprofessional." What does that mean?



This is Canon's designation, just as they consider the 5DMKIII a "Prosumer" camera, despite the fact that it is largely used by professionals. I fully agree that the 6D meets the needs of many professionals. The decisions of which features to include, however, will be based on where Canon wants to position the camera in the market. For the Mark I, that was "entry level full frame." If Canon intends to position the Mark II a bit higher, the feature set (and price) will reflect that.

Regarding articulating screens, to this point, Canon has considered it an amateur/enthusiast feature, so it's more plausible that it would appear in the "entry level" full frame body -- especially considering Nikon added one to the D750. I doubt Canon will be influenced by Nikon on this feature, but it would be nice to see an articulating screen introduced for the 6DII.


----------



## pedro (Sep 9, 2015)

heptagon said:


> 1.5 stops better high ISO? In RAW? No way!
> 
> In cooked JPEG - quite possible with additional processing power in easy scenes.



I'm always in for surprises. But if I read the sound comments of our experts here in the forum, 1/3 to 1/2 a stop would be a huge step forward already, given the current tech. Sorry for comparing apples to oranges now: in comparison to an a7s we talk about 24 MP vs 12 MP, and a different sensor tech as well. Anyway, if a 24 MP 6DII would deliever an 1.5 stops improvement in RAW, this would be fantastic. 3200ish ISO 8000, 6400ish ISO 18000 and 12800ish ISO 31000. Bring it on, put the same sensor into the 5DIV and I am a happy camper...;-)


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## NancyP (Sep 9, 2015)

I am going to say that the feature that saved my plastic 6D from oblivion is an L bracket, always on the camera. I was hiking over rocky ground and rocky stream, slipped and fell, camera in hand landed on the lower left corner HARD. Nice dent/scrape in outside edge of L bracket and in skin of owner - camera functioned perfectly. So there's another way to get durability  Just don't drop it onto the non-covered end....


----------



## heptagon (Sep 9, 2015)

pedro said:


> heptagon said:
> 
> 
> > 1.5 stops better high ISO? In RAW? No way!
> ...



Well, current sensors have about 50% quantum efficiency and 3 electrons of read noise.

Imagine you could double the quantum efficiency to 100% (which is the limit), you would gain 1 stop. (1 stop = doubling of light collected).

Then at these very low numbers we're at poisson noise and I don't have the numbers at hand but 3 electrons is not much. You need 100 electrons to get a signal-to-noise ratio of 10 with a perfect sensor. With 3 electrons of read noise that would be a signal-to-noise ratio of 100/13 = 7.7. Not much less. Not much to gain here either. And that's the limit for a single sensor camera. A physical limit which no amount of research or marketing can break.

But image processing is an area where significant gains should be obtainable. Intelligent algorithms which guess what was photographed and "paint" it for you without noise. What you see after noise reduction is not the original image, but an image painted by an algorithm showing what that algorithm "thinks" is in the picture. Improve that algorithm a lot and you can fish out more details and improve the subjective image quality by some stops.


----------



## infared (Sep 9, 2015)

cerealito said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > So ....I do not have a smart phone (I have a wireless phone...but not web, etc.). I like to be where I am, not acting out my addiction in public. ) To each his own. But ...i am dumb about this stuff....You sound like the right guy to ask...so...could you help me out here. If the camera has an Android OS...that will exclude mac users from utilizing there phones, iPads, etc. for remote control..etc. ...and obviously the whole menu system would change, too. Is that correct?
> ...


----------



## davidmurray (Sep 9, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Has Canon eliminated FPN (fixed pattern noise)?
> Has Canon reduced shadow noise to the levels of Sony/Nikon?
> If Canon can do the above, will the IQ at base ISO equal that of Sony/Nikon in both noise and DR?



Am I the only person tiring of the constant bitching and negativity from this anti-Canon person?
Admittedly I don't post often, but I read every other day, and I'd prefer positivity about what Canon is doing than constant negativity about what a bitter person perceives is wrong with Canon cameras.
If Canon products really are that bad why does he even bother?


----------



## Luds34 (Sep 9, 2015)

wunderpink said:


> JohanCruyff said:
> 
> 
> > Proscribo said:
> ...



I agree. I live without the swivel screen 90-some percent of the time. However, coming back from my BWCA trip recently in which my only tripod was a tiny little Pedco UltraPod II, it was a pain trying to compose my long exposure shots and really made me long for my 70D.


----------



## Steve (Sep 9, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Android: No. OS fragmentation, background power sucking, etc. are not a good idea for tool that needs to be reliable/stable/consistent, and it's a massive step away from Canon calling the shots menu/organization-wise. Canon's menus aren't sexy _and that's why I love them_. They are intelligently designed, efficient, and photographer-workflow oriented.



There is virtually no possibility at all of Canon switching to an open source OS to run their cameras. They like to have 100% control over every aspect of the design and only barely tolerate stuff like ML. That said, if they *did* switch to Android for some bizarre reason, it would likely be a very stripped down version that still had tight controls over what was possible and would likely lock out most of the OS functionality for the end user. It would be unbelievably stupid for them to just install Lollipop or whatever and let people go hog wild on the Play Store. 




ahsanford said:


> DPAF in Canon's _entry-level_ FF rig? I thought it was supposed to be stripped down to keep the entry cost lower. Not buying this either. DPAF will go to the 5D and 1D lines, but not the 6D I think.



It was introduced on the 70D, and will almost certainly be included on the 80D. The 6D isn't really "entry level" in any meaningful way and is definitely closer to the prosumer crops. I obviously don't have numbers to hand but I'd bet a decent amount of money the 6D is pretty low on the list of first time DSLR purchases. DPAF is probably going to be a given on every non-Rebel/Kiss camera going forward would be my guess.


----------



## Luds34 (Sep 9, 2015)

NancyP said:


> I would strongly prefer that they keep the interchangeable screens because my 6D has the Eg-S now, much better.



I have the Eg-S arriving tomorrow and am a bit excited. How do you like it? Is it easy enough to swap out? I do 99% autofocus, however I liked the idea of being able to confirm with my eye. I shoot a lot of shots at f/1.4, f/2 and sometimes I think I'm in focus and don't find out until later when I'm reviewing in LR. 

All my lenses are f/2.8 and faster except for two, and one them is the Tamron 150-600. Hopefully the viewfinder isn't too dark for my eyes with the new focus screen. Of course the Tamron gets used almost exclusively outdoors and in good light so...


----------



## davidmurray (Sep 9, 2015)

heptagon said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > heptagon said:
> ...



Thanks for that really interesting post. Interesting to look at this from the physics perspective.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 9, 2015)

pedro said:


> I'm always in for surprises. But if I read the sound comments of our experts here in the forum, 1/3 to 1/2 a stop would be a huge step forward already, given the current tech. Sorry for comparing apples to oranges now: in comparison to an a7s we talk about 24 MP vs 12 MP, and a different sensor tech as well. Anyway, if a 24 MP 6DII would deliever an 1.5 stops improvement in RAW, this would be fantastic. 3200ish ISO 8000, 6400ish ISO 18000 and 12800ish ISO 31000. Bring it on, put the same sensor into the 5DIV and I am a happy camper...;-)



That's kind of the problem. On the stills front, the 6D -- even with it's nerfed AF -- ever so slightly upstaged the 5D3 in some areas. The argument for the 5D3 went from "Have the best non-gripped FF SLR on the planet for $3499" to "We're like a 6D, but with better AF and video _for roughly twice the price_" the moment the 6D's reviews got posted.

We all know the 5D3 is a better camera for many other reasons (some big, some small), but the sensor gobbled up everyone's attention and an argument could be made if you weren't shooting video and you weren't tracking a fast moving object, a 6D could absolutely net the same images as a 5D3.

I assure you, Canon will see to it that such blurring of the price points never happens again. I expect a clear differentiation between the 5D4 and 6D2 sensors, so that it's clear (a) which product is top dog and (b) _why top dog costs a lot more_. 

Could you if imagine Canon asked $4k for a 5D4 and put the same sensor into a $2k 6D2? I just can't see it.

- A


----------



## ashmadux (Sep 9, 2015)

MattBromage said:


> Not keen on the swivel LCD as it could be a potential weak point structurally. Saying this, I don't know what the fault rate on current DSLRs with movable LCD screens are. However, every camera I've used has had a standard fixed LCD and there's never been an issue. Then again, I look after my camera and treat it like a newborn baby! 8)



Forget about fault rate - there is literally no complaint threads ever for swivel screens- because they are awesome. The 6d s basically a landscape camera already. The benefits of swivel screen are huge for anything you will shoot.

If they made this into a full frame equivalent of a 70d, that would be aces. I LOVE the sensor, though the images are softie. They just dont have much to do here to make this a solid, jack of all traders low end FF. 

And we can say goodbye to the worst FF Af system in modern history...yuck.


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 9, 2015)

Luds34 said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > I would strongly prefer that they keep the interchangeable screens because my 6D has the Eg-S now, much better.
> ...



It's dead easy to swap, though I wouldn't want to do it out in the field as it were. 

I'm cautious on the interchangeable screen on the 6DII, because I'm pretty certain the 5DIV will revert back to having one, just as the 7DII has. Canon seems to have sorted the manufacturing cost of transmissive LCD and user changeable screen. Also in the face of advancing EVFs I'm sure Canon will want to make the OVF as attractive as possible. However this could mean that as the 'second tier' camera the upcoming 6DII will lose the interchaneable screen as the 70D did.


----------



## siegsAR (Sep 9, 2015)

I had the 70D then I sold it to get a 6D. Did I miss the swivel screen? Not so much, only on few occasions when I haven't familiarized w/ the 6D yet. After that I kind of adjusted, sure it would be quicker sometimes but not a deal-breaker.

Swivel or not, I would be fine w/ what the 6D2's gonna bring. TBH, a near 70D focusing is what I would desire for it to have. An added stop of DR would be just gravy. No camera on the planet has that DR I wanted anyway. ;D


----------



## davidhfe (Sep 9, 2015)

heptagon said:


> Well, current sensors have about 50% quantum efficiency and 3 electrons of read noise.
> 
> Imagine you could double the quantum efficiency to 100% (which is the limit), you would gain 1 stop. (1 stop = doubling of light collected).



Not to go too far OT, but I thought that quantum efficiency could exceed 100%. You just get more than one electron per photon. Wasn't that part of the whole grapheme image sensor concept that went around a few years ago?

Practically, yeah, we're unlikely to see a doubling of QE anytime soon but I don't think it's a physical limit.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 9, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> I'm cautious on the interchangeable screen on the 6DII, because I'm pretty certain the 5DIV will revert back to having one, just as the 7DII has. Canon seems to have sorted the manufacturing cost of transmissive LCD and user changeable screen. Also in the face of advancing EVFs I'm sure Canon will want to make the OVF as attractive as possible. However this could mean that as the 'second tier' camera the upcoming 6DII will lose the interchaneable screen as the 70D did.



Yet another feature the 6D offered over the 5D3. 

I agree with your assessment -- I see interchangeable screens being saved for the higher priced rigs. I would not expect this feature in the 6D2.

This will build the cumulative sell that the 5D4 is an all-around improvement over the 6D2.

- A


----------



## pedro (Sep 9, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > I'm always in for surprises. But if I read the sound comments of our experts here in the forum, 1/3 to 1/2 a stop would be a huge step forward already, given the current tech. Sorry for comparing apples to oranges now: in comparison to an a7s we talk about 24 MP vs 12 MP, and a different sensor tech as well. Anyway, if a 24 MP 6DII would deliever an 1.5 stops improvement in RAW, this would be fantastic. 3200ish ISO 8000, 6400ish ISO 18000 and 12800ish ISO 31000. Bring it on, put the same sensor into the 5DIV and I am a happy camper...;-)
> ...



Thank you ahsanford. You are right. Then, what can we expect from a 5DIV high ISO/IQ? Wish it could stay at these 20 something MP I had on my 5D3. Linked with the improvement, it sure would be quite a step up. The 1DX is said to be at least a stop better in IQ than the 5D3, at its 18 MP including all the components which contribute to it. So, what is the probable improvement in high ISO/IQ of an 1DX II and what does that mean for a 5DIV at let's say 24 MP? Sure, one cannot say much at this stage...Will we see a similar sensor (techwise) as in the 5Ds/R?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 9, 2015)

pedro said:


> Thank you ahsanford. You are right. Then, what can we expect from a 5DIV high ISO/IQ? Wish it could stay at these 20 something MP I had on my 5D3. Linked with the improvement, it sure would be quite a step up. The 1DX is said to be at least a stop better in IQ than the 5D3, at its 18 MP including all the components which contribute to it. So, what is the probable improvement in high ISO/IQ of an 1DX II and what does that mean for a 5DIV at let's say 24 MP? Sure, one cannot say much at this stage...Will we see a similar sensor (techwise) as in the 5Ds/R?



That's the $64,000 question. Will the 5D4 be built around improving the low light performance? Or will it focus on dynamic range improvements? We have no idea.

The only thing we know is that it won't be packing that 50 MP 5DS sensor. All conventional wisdom and virtually every rumor says that we're in the 24-30 MP neighborhood and naturally have a higher burst rate than the 5DS with such smaller files to handle. That's about all we know.

But most believe that we'll hear about the 1DX II (or whatever it's called) first, and that should help us get a read on what sort of flagship goodness be handed down (AF system? Metering system? Focusing screens? New viewfinder tech?) to the 5D4. Time will tell.

- A


----------



## midluk (Sep 9, 2015)

davidhfe said:


> heptagon said:
> 
> 
> > Well, current sensors have about 50% quantum efficiency and 3 electrons of read noise.
> ...



Depends on how you define QE. If it is the probability for an incident photon to be detected, then 100% is the upper limit.
Even when you apply some gain and get more than one electron per photon, you can only decrease the relative read noise. You will not decrease the Poisson noise coming from the actual fluctuation in the number of incident photons. If you have an average of 10000 incident photons per pixel, you will still have a fluctuation of sqrt(10000)=100 photons, no matter what you do to the sensor.


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 9, 2015)

heptagon said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > heptagon said:
> ...


You could attack the problem from three fronts:
1) Reduce minimum Read Noise (What's the minimum possible? Maybe 0.4?)
2) Increase Full Well Capacity (What is the maximum for 6 micron pixels? Maybe 79,000?)
3) Increase Quantum Efficiency (What is the maximum? Maybe 87%) 

Please feel free to challenge my assumptions above.

Current 6D: 
RN = 1.6 
FWC = 74,256
QE = 47%

(1.6/0.4) x (79,000/74,256) x (87/47) = 4 x 1.06 x 1.85
= 7.84

Converting to stops: log(7.84)/log(2) = 2.97 stops

FWC depends on pixel size and limits of materials. I think the biggest potential improvements would be from reducing read noise not increasing QE.


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 9, 2015)

davidmurray said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Has Canon eliminated FPN (fixed pattern noise)?
> ...


Im not a general Canon critic and overall Im more than happy with the 6D. But Dilbert who youve rubbished makes a valid point about low level banding on the 6D especially noticeable with grey skies and impossible to edit out in LR without creating other issues. Professionally I dont see this in Sony sensors so its technically possible to eliminate and something we should expect to be cured. 
As for other improvements DR at 14 stops would be good, additional AF points and as stated elsewhere a cure for GPS battery drain. Im neither for or against a swivel screen as long as it doesnt compromise weather sealing.


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## Don Haines (Sep 9, 2015)

davidmurray said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Has Canon eliminated FPN (fixed pattern noise)?
> ...


Some people fixate on the positives, some people fixate on the negatives. I think we need both for a balanced viewpoint. Canon has some areas where they are not as good as they should be (sensors). They also have areas (lenses, ergonomics, AF, flash system) where they exceed the competition. Which direction to go depends on your needs so a good understanding of the plusses and minuses of your choices can only help you.


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## midluk (Sep 10, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> heptagon said:
> 
> 
> > pedro said:
> ...



How does FWC influence the low light performance when the wells are far from being full? Doesn't that only determine the minimum possible sensitivity/ISO for a given QE?
And I'm pretty sure you can not just multiply the ratios of RN and QE. In the signal to noise ratio the RN appears just as one summand in the denominator, while QE appears linearly in the numerator and as a square root in the sum in the denominator.


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## Vivid Color (Sep 10, 2015)

Ladislav said:


> The last thing I want in my DSLR is Android! Please don't do that.


+100


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## Vivid Color (Sep 10, 2015)

Famateur said:


> I keep hearing people talk about potential durability issues with the articulating screen. Three points:
> 
> #1) This is the 6D. It's an "entry level" camera and not meant for rugged use.
> 
> ...



I would love an articulating screen.


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## davidmurray (Sep 10, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> davidmurray said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



In general agree with you about the desirability of a balanced view. I don't like 100% negativity, and those who only rant about how bad Canon cameras are just detract from the enjoyability and helpfulness of this website. If they truly believe that then I really don't understand why they bother to hang around on a Canon-focussed website.


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## a4jp.com (Sep 10, 2015)

A swivelling LCD touchscreen would be very cool. Please make it bright like a Sony screen or Apple iPhone though  I also hope the image quality is better. Pentax brought out a pixel shift resolution system which make the images look a lot clearer than that on the Canon cameras. Why can't the Canon cameras just merge multiple images to improve the quality? Hopefully full colored light sensors will be coming to us soon too. UV built into the sensors would also be fun. Wish I could design a few cameras for them.


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## heptagon (Sep 10, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> heptagon said:
> 
> 
> > pedro said:
> ...



This calculation has some flaws.

The full-well-capacity is not important at high ISO when you have only so few photons per pixel.

The quantum efficiency works as expected on the light collection.

But light collection also generates noise because it is a statistical Poisson process. The photons are not hitting the sensor in an ordered fashion like a stream of water drops from a dripping faucet. They are rather hitting the sensor like raindrops. If you get 100 photons on average per pixel, you will get a deviation of sqrt(100)=10 simply due to the fact that some pixels get more and others get less photons than the average. If you increase the number of photons per pixel to 400 the statistical deviations will increase to 20 and you have a net gain in SNR of 2. 

Now if you consider the read noise, you can add it to the statistical Poisson noise as 

total_noise = sqrt( poisson_noise^2 + read_noise^2 ) 

The poisson noise is dominant even for very low photon counts >10 and then the read noise is not very important anymore.* This means that even if you have a noiseless sensor, you will still have noisy images.

When you look at the sensor performance at DXOmark, there is little difference at high ISO for good sensors of the same size. This is, because we are approaching the physical limits. In order to get better numbers "on paper" you will have to "cook" the RAW files with noise reduction algorithms which remove detail from the images.


*: If the read noise is not random you will get noise patterns which are much worse than random noise due to the fact that we recognize patterns easily. The best sensors therefore eliminate pattern noise.


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## Antono Refa (Sep 10, 2015)

I don't see apps on Canon cameras for two reasons:

1. It would create competition with Canon.

Why buy timer remote controller when you can buy a cheaper app that would cover the same function?

Why upgrade a camera to have AEB take more photos, when you buy a cheaper app that would increase the number?

2. Apps raise the suspicion EOS cameras and EF lenses that support through-the-mount firmware upgrades would be infected or damaged with malware. Combine with wi-fi, and that raise the suspicion of remote infection.

I don't see Canon investing / wasting time on creating a screened apps store like Apple and Amazon, or wasting lab workers' time trying to figure out whether it's a hardware problem or malware problem.


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## Sabaki (Sep 10, 2015)

My opinion...

...Canon love their end-to-end 100% Canon system. Their software, firmware, chipsets, everything is all Canon.

Now if they're not willing to budge and move to 3rd party chipsets, why use 3rd party firmware?


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## wunderpink (Sep 10, 2015)

The 6D line sucessively replaces the 5D line, while the 5D line will aim more and more for 1D customers.

When the 6D came out, it was already superior to the highly regarded 5D II. If the 6D gets the swivel screen and slightly improved autofocus, it will be as complete as an all-round full frame camera can be. I guess the 6D will become something like the D750 in the Nikon world.


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## dufflover (Sep 10, 2015)

I find the comments on the "weaknesses" of a swivel screen are the same ones who complain about the "crap" plastic Canon have switched to, and the same ones who owned neither to even break it. "Oh I held it and it felt cheap" is the best they can come up with. Dropped my 60D onto concrete before; bit of a scuff but otherwise perfectly fine; hardly "weak" at any rate. I could even understand people being cynical it's a way to get things to "break faster" so they are forced to upgrade like say with a mobile phone , but that's not the reason or fear; it's put up as a factual assertion it will break on someone just like that ...


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## romanr74 (Sep 10, 2015)

dufflover said:


> I find the comments on the "weaknesses" of a swivel screen are the same ones who complain about the "crap" plastic Canon have switched to, and the same ones who owned neither to even break it. "Oh I held it and it felt cheap" is the best they can come up with. Dropped my 60D onto concrete before; bit of a scuff but otherwise perfectly fine; hardly "weak" at any rate. I could even understand people being cynical it's a way to get things to "break faster" so they are forced to upgrade like say with a mobile phone , but that's not the reason or fear; it's put up as a factual assertion it will break on someone just like that ...



Interesting theory. I find the latest plastic L-lens design totally fine. I own a few of them. I still don't like swivel screens. I never used them on the bridge cameras I own/owned (maybe I'm missing some perspectives), they make the camera bulkier, more difficult to keep clean, they are disturbing handling the camera in the bag and they just look totally aweful.


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## romanr74 (Sep 10, 2015)

davidmurray said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Has Canon eliminated FPN (fixed pattern noise)?
> ...



Most probably a desperate Sony sales rep...


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## rfdesigner (Sep 10, 2015)

midluk said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > heptagon said:
> ...



The elephant in the room is the bayer matrix.

Effectively a moderate CMOS sensor has approx. 50% QE, a really good front illuminated CCD can reach ~75% QE, the best back illuminated devices reach 90% QE.

However you place a bayer matrix over this and any one pixel will only see ~30% of the spectrum, so the effective overall QE, even on an A7RII can be no more than 30%, typically most DSLRs will be at around 15~20%

This is part of the attraction of a foveon type sensor.. photons of different energies (colours) generate electrons in silicon at different depths, place three wells above one another and you have a colour sensitive camera with much higher sensitivity.

You also get much better spacial resolution as you don't need an anti aliasing filter or debaying algorithm.

Additionally it becomes relatively trivial to "bin" pixels (pour all the electrons from several adjacent pixels into one readout amplifier), turning a 40MPix camera into a 10MPix with 4x the base sensitivity.

The downside of a foveon sensor is you can't do the "back illuminated" trick, that works by keeping all the gates and metalwork out of the way of the incoming light, as you have three layers you always need to get some photons past some gates.. so you're probably looking at ~60% QE max.


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## NancyP (Sep 10, 2015)

The problems with Foveon sensors seem to be inherently lower sensitivity (Q.E.) and complex (or at least different) computational means of translating photon penetration to color, resulting in a dearth of user software. But, for well lit subjects, and with a bit of patience for the less-than-ideal software, the color subtlety and microcontrast seen with the Sigma Merrill series of cameras is hard to beat.


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## 9VIII (Sep 10, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> davidmurray said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Except that he doesn't own any Sony gear, apparently he shoots Canon. It sounds more like some kind of self loathing.


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## RustyTheGeek (Sep 10, 2015)

NancyP said:


> The problems with Foveon sensors seem to be inherently lower sensitivity (Q.E.) and complex (or at least different) computational means of translating photon penetration to color, resulting in a dearth of user software. But, for well lit subjects, and with a bit of patience for the less-than-ideal software, the color subtlety and microcontrast seen with the Sigma Merrill series of cameras is hard to beat.



Wow! Look at Nancy busting out the knowledge! Obviously, she's not just another pretty face hiking with her pack and camera in the woods!


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## Sporgon (Sep 10, 2015)

9VIII said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > davidmurray said:
> ...



But he's _going to_ get a Sony


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## TiredEngineer (Sep 10, 2015)

Every one here is acting like they will be putting the Google branded phone/tablet Android on a camera. Canon will use the open source Android and rip out everything they do not need. You will most likely not even know you are running Android.

I think you would be surprised how many electronics run a stripped down version of open source Android and you don't realize it.


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## meywd (Sep 10, 2015)

TiredEngineer said:


> Every one here is acting like they will be putting the Google branded phone/tablet Android on a camera. Canon will use the open source Android and rip out everything they do not need. You will most likely not even know you are running Android.
> 
> I think you would be surprised how many electronics run a stripped down version of open source Android and you don't realize it.



+1, I hate android, but that's the one running on smart phones, other hardware needs modifications which will be done on the source which is open, meaning anyone can use without returning to google, so no Google updates, and it will not be related to the android you know in anyway except for the kernel


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 10, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...


Regardless he did make valid points about sensor weaknesses with the 6D in certain shooting environments overall however the camera more than compensates with its features, build quality and Canon colour imagery plus the lens portfolio.


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## cerealito (Sep 11, 2015)

TiredEngineer said:


> Every one here is acting like they will be putting the Google branded phone/tablet Android on a camera. Canon will use the open source Android and rip out everything they do not need. You will most likely not even know you are running Android.
> 
> I think you would be surprised how many electronics run a stripped down version of open source Android and you don't realize it.



Maybe not google branded, but google certified/controlled. You can not use the name _Android_ without waving A LOT of control to Google. The open source components of the system are just a small part of from what people usually call 'Android'.

If you are suggesting that those open source components could be used by Canon as they are many electronic products, then sure, that's possible (i'm almost sure that's already the case), but those components existed long before the Android project, and are not tied to it in any way, they exist independently of Android. That's the case of the Linux kernel for example.

What I'm saying is that a sufficiently striped-down version of Android stops being Android when google loses control over it.


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## cerealito (Sep 11, 2015)

meywd said:


> TiredEngineer said:
> 
> 
> > Every one here is acting like they will be putting the Google branded phone/tablet Android on a camera. Canon will use the open source Android and rip out everything they do not need. You will most likely not even know you are running Android.
> ...



That's a misconception right there, the kernel used by most Android devices is the Linux kernel and it exists independently of Android. That's also the case of may other components _used by_ (meaning _integrated in_) Android. Many other devices use the Linux kernel (and the other open source components) as well but that does not make them Android devices in any way.

I know that this is just a rumor but i would like people to understand the implications of Canon actually making an Android camera. One of these implications would definitely be waving some control to google.


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## Keith_Reeder (Sep 11, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> But he's _going to_ get a Sony


I've even offered to _buy_ him one if it'd get rid of him...


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## Keith_Reeder (Sep 11, 2015)

dilbert said:


> You're forgetting that all of those commenting as such are experts on anything and everything to do with photography, don't you know?



Well they won't be spending as much time out there mastering their talents as you spend on here whining about Canon, that's for sure...


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## Keith_Reeder (Sep 11, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> Canon has some areas where they are not as good as they should be (sensors).



But Canon's sensors are _absolutely_ as good as 99% of us will ever _need_ them to be.

The only people who _need_ Sony sensors are people who don't know how to expose their images properly, or process them effectively. 

People who would benefit more from _lessons_ than from a new sensor...


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## Crosswind (Sep 12, 2015)

romanr74 said:


> I still don't like swivel screens. I never used them on the bridge cameras I own/owned (maybe I'm missing some perspectives), they make the camera bulkier, more difficult to keep clean, they are disturbing handling the camera in the bag and they just look totally aweful.



None of this is true imo. 

I really miss the swivel screen of the EOS 600D I came from. Now I own the 6D and it's almost perfect. It just could be a bit smaller, have at least an up-tilting screen and feature ISO102400 LiveView (I'd like to see the milky way in real-time like I could with the Sony A7S, would make things like composition much easier).

Improving the S/N ratio is out of the question; these sort of things always get a little bit better. For me, the small details are much more important.

I could have bought a 1DX or 5Dmk3, but didn't do so, as I don't want to waste money for (in my case of photography) useless better AF systems or frame rates etc... Of course these are great cameras for those who are in need of such features. For me, the 6D is still the best value-body when it comes to nightsky photography.

Edit; The 6D has WiFi so I can have a "swivel screen" if I really need to. In that case I'd connect my smartphone to the camera. Now, that's a good thing for low-angle shots (especially in the dark), but it makes the camera much more complex, slower and bulky - so that's the reason why I'd like to see a swivel screen built into the 6D2.


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## Mr_Canuck (Sep 12, 2015)

I can't wait for the new box.


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## Don Haines (Sep 13, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Keith_Reeder said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


Anyone who has shot a bird against a bright sky will agree with you on that... including Sony owners... 14 stops of DR is just not enough!


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## davidmurray (Sep 13, 2015)

dilbert said:


> I reacted positively to the idea of Android and I'm positive about swivel screen. Problem is many others here aren't



Why would anyone want a custom version of Linux (customised for use on cellphones) then further customised for use on high-end DSLR cameras?
I have Linux on my laptop, and Android on my cellphone. I accept the desirability of having a general purpose network enabled system on those devices because, well, they ARE general purpose devices.

I really don't want my good camera connecting directly to the WWW via general purpose software. I want my Canon camera to be all Canon, and to be fast, efficient, and purpose built. I don't want to wait for it to start.

I appreciate that there are some extreme situations where it is not possible to use the optical view finder. I've not encountered one yet but think there are some. Probably. Where a 5D couldn't do the job. Maybe. So don't see how the extra cost could be justified. Surely for those few extreme situations an external monitor plugged into the HDMI port would do the job in a much more robust way than a built-in swivel screen.
I think Canon's decision to avoid bling like that on high-end cameras was an enlightened decision.


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## zim (Sep 13, 2015)

Just a thought, how about a 'duel' OS, the existing canon OS and an a n other which third parties could official develop on. The core OS being protected by an api and published protocols. WiFi and GPS which isn't really core camera functionality could get moved to the more appropriate platform. Startup speed would also be protected and ML would be opened up to the apps developer community.


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## Rahul Zota (Sep 13, 2015)

I think Canon should focus on Dynamic Range and Image Quality than increasing the fps rates.. 6 fps would be better but the Dynamic Range should be above 14 stops..


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## MeanGreeny (Sep 13, 2015)

Oh please let the tilt screen bit be true - my knees are definitely older than the rest of me


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## cerealito (Sep 14, 2015)

davidmurray said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > I reacted positively to the idea of Android and I'm positive about swivel screen. Problem is many others here aren't
> ...



+1


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 14, 2015)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has some areas where they are not as good as they should be (sensors).
> ...


I think your last comment you should read back. Ive been taking photographs for 45years, I know how to expose properly and all the fundamentals of photography. No amount of exposure correction or time in LR or PS will eliminate fixed pattern noise or banding both of which can be present in shots Ive taken with numerous Canon EOS digital cameras including my present 6D. I would prefer more latitude 14 stops would suffice but the present 11.7 even with filters can be challenging when dealing with deep blacks and bright highlights. Does this make Canon cameras bad? no but equally improvements would be welcome.


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## Don Haines (Sep 15, 2015)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has some areas where they are not as good as they should be (sensors).
> ...


In the Canon system, the sensor is the weakest part. The glass is fantastic! The user interface is good to great, depending on which camera. The autofocus system is great. The flash system is great....

Yes, the sensors are good enough for most people, but that doesn't mean that they should not make them better. There are lots of cases where the DR of the scene can not be captured in a single exposure. Canon has 11-12 stops.... Sony somewhere around 14 stops.... 16 stops would be even better.

No amount of lessons is going to help you when your scene has both bright and dark areas that you are trying to capture. Yes, you can try HDR, but that doesn't work on moving objects. All you can do in a single shot is decide if you are going to lose shadows, lose highlights, or a bit of both. Once the information is lost, no amount of processing will bring it back....


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 16, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> Keith_Reeder said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


The answer my friend is a question...

"What is your subject?" - Eileen Rafferty


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## Don Haines (Sep 19, 2015)

StudentOfLight said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Keith_Reeder said:
> ...


Personally, I like to split the difference and expose to loose a bit of both.... Here's the original image from lightroom with clipping display turned on.....

And yes, you can edit a bit to avoid the washed out look (second picture)....

Do I need more DR to take pictures? NO! That said, a bit more will help with clipping problems. This is the weakest part of the Canon system. I am not saying that it is bad, I'm saying that this is an area that can be improved on, and I fully expect that future models will address this.


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## Sporgon (Sep 19, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Don, that's a great example, because what you have shown is precisely what the '14 stops of DR' on the Exmor cannot help you with. I have tried one and it is no panacea for this situation.

For the same exposure the clipped highlights will be identical. (In actual fact I found the Canon fractionally better). The clipped blacks will be slightly better on the Exmor. 

Now; you underexpose to preserve the highlights with the exmor, but you were already on the verge of losing the blacks anyway. Your under exposure, or perhaps better to say your faster exposure now loses those blacks that you were on the edge of anyway. 

You gain nothing. You could have exposed faster with the Canon and lost your blacks as well. 

This is why I said that after trying the exmor I found the EV range to be similar, it's just the read noise DR that is better, and of course there is a small window of opportunity to use it that is hammered to death on the internet.


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## Don Haines (Sep 19, 2015)

Obviously every little improvement helps, but I think it's going to take 16 stops of DR to make a significant difference...

I don't have the data to show it, but it seems to me like my 7D2 has more range and cleaner shadows than my 60D.... For taking pictures of night skies it is worlds better! I expect that whatever comes next will have some more incremental improvements..... 

Basically, none of this matters because whatever comes next is better than its predecessor.


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 19, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> Obviously every little improvement helps, but I think it's going to take 16 stops of DR to make a significant difference...
> 
> I don't have the data to show it, but it seems to me like my 7D2 has more range and cleaner shadows than my 60D.... For taking pictures of night skies it is worlds better! I expect that whatever comes next will have some more incremental improvements.....
> 
> Basically, none of this matters because whatever comes next is better than its predecessor.



Yes, more range in the highlights would bring many of the advantages for real that people on forums harp on about with the current Exmor. 

I was never a great fan of the Canon 18 MP APS sensor. When pushed and manipulated it fell apart much faster than a FF camera. However I think the 20 MP in the 7DII is superb. It is clearly a more expensive incarnation of the sensor in the 70D and really does make me question the need to use FF much of the time.


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## Komodor (Oct 5, 2015)

current 6D is such a good camera but we need shadow detail and low shadow noise that mean is more capable sensor and better af system i mean is more af points and more cross type sensors.


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## K (Oct 5, 2015)

Vivid Color said:


> Ladislav said:
> 
> 
> > The last thing I want in my DSLR is Android! Please don't do that.
> ...



The pros to having Android would be the de-crippling of several Canon features. It would be like Magic Lantern but much better with more ability to do more

The cons would be a bloated, battery killing, messy OS/firmware that brings all kinds of other bugs, hassles and headaches with it.

At the end of the day, it is a camera - NOT a computer. I'd prefer it not run android. I want to spend more time making photos than fiddling with the system.

Seriously, the world is over saturated with crap that can download "apps" ...please let our DSLR's be sanctuaries of sanity in this regard.


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## K (Oct 5, 2015)

6D2,

I've said it before, 2 SD slots is what I hope for.

With 2 SD slots, this thing will destroy Nikon's FF-entry lineup. Because right now, that's a key feature that attracts up and coming pros on a budget. Nikon has big appeal in that segment. They want full frame, they want to shoot jobs and want data security - they can't spend $3,000. Canon shouldn't treat the 6D as just a high end hobbyist camera. This feature alone could allow it to be more popular in other segments.

Otherwise, the D750 is mighty attractive at its price. It has 2 slots, 24MP sensor with great low light and DR capabilities. And a 5D3 comparable AF system. Very hard to beat at around $1,500


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 5, 2015)

Spent the last 10 days playing with my 5Ds but took the 6D out on Sunday. It got me thinking what would I change about it? Well not alot but this is what I would like:- 

1. Slight increase to 24MP
2. Slightly better DR
3. NO banding 
4. More AF points 
5. 5Ds metering system 

Size & weight of the 6D along with wi-fi and GPS make it my travel camera thats not something I see my 5Ds being. The 5Ds is my tripod only Landscape camera where I want critical sharpness but its not a forgiving camera and technically everything needs disapline & attention to get results that exploit the resolution.


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## PhotographyFirst (Oct 5, 2015)

K said:


> 6D2,
> 
> I've said it before, 2 SD slots is what I hope for.
> 
> ...



I personally think adding dual slots would be more beneficial than adding more DR. It would be great to be able to toss two 128BG + cards into there and never touch them for an entire trip. I would like to use higher capacity cards, but only having a single slots makes it too risky if a card fails.


----------



## K (Oct 5, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> Spent the last 10 days playing with my 5Ds but took the 6D out on Sunday. It got me thinking what would I change about it? Well not alot but this is what I would like:-
> 
> *1. Slight increase to 24MP
> 2. Slightly better DR
> ...




Not trying to be a smart, but that list - except for #5 is what the D750 already has. This is to further illustrate my point only, not to suggest anything about your post. And for metering, Nikon has arguably equal or better metering than Canon. 

Unless Canon leapfrogs those specs with the 6D2, it will be hard to argue in favor of Canon for an entry level FF camera. We're speculating a $2,200 (or more) introduction price for a *single slot* FF camera in 2016. And it isn't likely to beat the 51 AF system, at best match it if it gets the 5D3 AF. It isn't likely to be a game changer on MP, with 28 at most from the rumors. DR is going to be hard to match or beat. And, 2 slots for data security, an important feature for pros and serious amateurs. And more FPS making it a reasonably decent camera for events. Will the 6D2 up the FPS that much? And the D750 has already dropped quite a bit from the intro price.

For those of us already in the Canon system and whom prefer the ergonomics or the lens lineup. Different story.

For all those making the leap to FF from crop and who are not invested in pro glass, I can't see how Canon offers a better deal than Nikon. Nikon might not have the diversity in lenses that Canon does - but Nikon has every pro staple lens you could need. 

Worse, by the time the 6D2 is released or announced in late 2016 or further, what will the D810 be running street price? Think about that too. Dollar for dollar, by that time you'll have a nearly $800 cheaper camera with equal to or slightly better specs (D750) or an equal price camera (D810) with mostly better specs and more megapixels.

I get attacked on this forum for pointing that out, even though I'm a 5D3 and 6D owner and user. Nikon is a bit ahead on the value front for new users. Canon rides on the "you're stuck with us cause you have a fortune worth of our glass" ...a bit too much.


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## StudentOfLight (Oct 6, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


Sometimes I prefer not to fight against physics and simply embrace shadow. 

When watching a Star Wars movie recently one of the lines jumped out at me a real quotable moment applicable to photographers:
"You underestimate the power of the Dark Side." - Darth Vader


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 6, 2015)

K said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > Spent the last 10 days playing with my 5Ds but took the 6D out on Sunday. It got me thinking what would I change about it? Well not alot but this is what I would like:-
> ...


The D750 is indeed a place Canon missed out on I see the D610 as the 6D competitor currently. Im not fixated on an articulted screen its certainly not stopped me getting shots I know of and wonder about water ingress. The D750 doesnt have GPS a feature I use alot in Landscape. To its advantage is 51 point AF vs 11 point and the 2 stop DR increase however the 6D is exapandable 102,500 the Nikon is not. Personally I dont like for me the reverse focusing of Nikon lenses I use my lenses in manual focus alot. 
Canon I think will give the next 6D 61 point AF the AF is the one area they have been lambasted for on the 6D and quite rightly however that centre cross point is very accurate in low light. Some like the inter-changeable screen in the 6D I think its a pain in the ass Ive had mine cleaned twice to remove dust thats got behind it but its a underrated camera among snobbish 5D MKIII users who missed the point of the camera as a travel & landscape camera its not meant to be a poor mans 5D MKIII. If Canon make small meaningful improvement and keep the spirit of the existing camera then I think it will do well.


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## Takingshots (Oct 9, 2015)

With the new Sony A7rii in the market and tested , voted by DP review as the best, Canon needs to ante up their specs on their dslr. By the time A7rii benig fully field tested and critique in the mass market, Sony will by then improve on those criticisms and roll in their newer 3rd version. CAnon and Nikon still being the 8 th ball trying to match Sony's specifications.....


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## Adelino (Oct 10, 2015)

I really just want what would be a full frame Rebel. 24 MP more dynamic range, the iso range seems great already. Maybe Canon will come out with a lower end model for us enthusiast only consumers?


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## crashpc (Oct 11, 2015)

Wow lower Class FF would be awesome for some. Tinny black box, even without wiewfinder, only vital controls for exp. settings and LCD, for under $1000 would be welcome


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## rfdesigner (Oct 11, 2015)

If we stop and think about it, when the 6D was introduced it was essentially a 5DII, but with working AutoISO, better sensor, hypersensitive AF, lighter and noticably less expensive than a 5DIII, but perhaps not quite as indestructable as the 5DII.

Let's just hope they do the same again.

Anyone want a 5DIII with a better AF (and the sensor AF points lighting up in the viewfinder), better sensor, about the same weight as the current 6D, keeping the wifi and gps, and with an introductory price about the same price as the best priced 5DIII, but falling noticably over the first year? to about where we are now with the current 6D.. 

Dunno what a 5DIVs going to add to that?..


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## tomri (Oct 16, 2015)

rfdesigner said:


> If we stop and think about it, when the 6D was introduced it was essentially a 5DII, but with working AutoISO, better sensor, hypersensitive AF, lighter and noticably less expensive than a 5DIII, but perhaps not quite as indestructable as the 5DII.
> 
> Let's just hope they do the same again.
> (snip)


When the 5DIII appeared the sensor was a disappointment just as much as was the AF of the 5DII and consequently on the 6D.
If the 5DiV makes a significant step in sensor technology, I just hope they carry that forward to the 6DII as well and not make us wait another half-decade ;-(


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## Sporgon (Oct 16, 2015)

tomri said:


> When the 5DIII appeared the sensor was a disappointment



To whom ? Yourself ? 

I could produce quotes from many successful pros, some high profile, who felt the sensor in the 5DIII was (and is) superb. 

Don't confuse extraordinary shadow latitude with overall sensor quality.


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## tomscott (Oct 16, 2015)

Yep the 5DMKIII wasn't a huge upgrade IQ wise compared to the 5DII but is excellent.


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## Takingshots (Oct 16, 2015)

Canon be quick with the release... Getting old waiting ... or one should jump to Sony A7Rii when X'mas sale is on ....


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## LSeries (Dec 17, 2015)

K said:


> The cons would be a bloated, battery killing, messy OS/firmware that brings all kinds of other bugs, hassles and headaches with it.



This is just a myth. There are thousands of Android devices working perfectly, including my beloved Moto G. 

Besides, Samsung released an Android-based camera a long time ago. Now they have a couple of models:
http://www.samsung.com/us/photography/galaxy-camera

Do they have the issues you mentioned?


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## K (Dec 17, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> tomri said:
> 
> 
> > When the 5DIII appeared the sensor was a disappointment
> ...




Well said.


The 5D3 is weak in the shadows and has banding and whatnot compared to others. But for 99% of the rest of real photography, it is an amazing sensor capable of professional results.

I've compared studio shots of the 5D3 against the D810, and when sized the same - you cannot tell the difference. The detail and quality is incredible. 

The 5D3 sensor will continue to put out high quality images for another decade. While there will be better sensors out there in the future, the 5D3's sensor isn't going to get worse. In other words, the level of technical quality achieved by that sensor will be useful for a long time.

The same is true of sensors of previous generations.


As for the 6D. 2 card slots, or Canon can keep it as far as I'm concerned. I don't care what in the universe excuse, justification, apology or what not people come up with - a $2k+ dslr ought to have a 2nd slot.


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## jeffa4444 (Dec 18, 2015)

K said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > tomri said:
> ...


Never got the need for 2XCards for the majority, I certainly didnt chose the 5DS for 2xCards however the 5DMKIII gives this option and their is really not much real world difference between the two sensors. 
The 6D MKII needs better AF and not just a bump up to 19 points, it should have better DR and eliminate the banding it can be prone too (not had any in the 5DS). Everything else about it I would keep its the best value camera Canon make considering ther sensor (again minus the low level banding) and the wi-fi coupled to the GPS make it a great landscape & travel camera.


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## PhotographyFirst (Dec 19, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> K said:
> 
> 
> > Sporgon said:
> ...



Strange, I shot many landscapes with the 6D at every ISO and pushed the files very hard in PS. Never once did I detect and banding in any image. Maybe there was something wrong with your copy? 

The big bonus for me and using dual slots, is that I could dump my 16 and 32 gig cards and just put two 128+ gig cards into the camera with RAW files being written to both at once. That way I never have to open up the camera to swap cards, don't have to carry a card case (added weight), and my files are still safe if one of the cards shits the bed. On top of that, in an extreme case where I happen to fill the cards, I can clear one card and take new shots on it. 

Seeing as how even the Nikon D7XXX series all have dual slots, I don't see why Canon can't put the same into their FF model that costs more. Heck, even both the D610 and D750 have dual slots. I think Canon is worried the cameras would be more tempting for professionals to purchase and want them to pony up the huge price increase for a 5D or 1D series body.


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## Crosswind (Dec 20, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> Strange, I shot many landscapes with the 6D at every ISO and pushed the files very hard in PS. Never once did I detect and banding in any image.



Oh there is banding with the 6D even at ISO 100, but you wont see it until you do image stacking and light up underexposed shadows. You can see it best when looking at uniform areas of the image. Still, (in most cases) it is nothing to worry about I'd say. I am pretty happy with my 6D except that it has no tilting screen and very low sensitivity LiveView. Wish the mark II will deliver on that.

Please guys, do not quote tons of text. Sometimes it's a burden to read.


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## PhotographyFirst (Dec 20, 2015)

Crosswind said:


> PhotographyFirst said:
> 
> 
> > Strange, I shot many landscapes with the 6D at every ISO and pushed the files very hard in PS. Never once did I detect and banding in any image.
> ...


It's probably your copy or the software you are using. I have never once seen banding in any RAW file from my 6D. Don't presume that I haven't done enough to find banding in my files, as that was something I tested very thoroughly when deciding to keep the camera or return it. I am super picky about banding especially after owning the dreaded 5D2 nightmare of a camera.


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## rfdesigner (Dec 20, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> It's probably your copy or the software you are using. I have never once seen banding in any RAW file from my 6D. Don't presume that I haven't done enough to find banding in my files, as that was something I tested very thoroughly when deciding to keep the camera or return it. I am super picky about banding especially after owning the dreaded 5D2 nightmare of a camera.



have you ever stacked images? your answer suggests you haven't.. I'm talking 30+ images all the same exposure?... not just an HDR from 3 images of different lengths.

Stacking reveals all sorts of fixed pattern noise.

(I've taken astro shots with over 8 hours with the shutter open for just one shot.. not with a 6D though)


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## TeT (Dec 20, 2015)

rfdesigner said:


> .. not with a 6D though)



Pure curious query; what camera do you stack with?


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## rfdesigner (Dec 21, 2015)

TeT said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > .. not with a 6D though)
> ...



atik 383L+

I've also it with my 30D


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## SOD (Dec 22, 2015)

:-*

I expect we will see a 6D Mk II with a new sensor outputting 40+ MP, mostly as an F-U to Nikon. It will be a slightly less robust version of the 51 MP sensor in the 5DS and 5DS R. Giving pros a reason to still prefer the 5DS over the 6D II, yet giving the 6D II more resolution than even the top-of-the-line D8100 from Nikon!


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## eninja (Dec 31, 2015)

SOD said:


> :-*
> 
> I expect we will see a 6D Mk II with a new sensor outputting 40+ MP, mostly as an F-U to Nikon. It will be a slightly less robust version of the 51 MP sensor in the 5DS and 5DS R. Giving pros a reason to still prefer the 5DS over the 6D II, yet giving the 6D II more resolution than even the top-of-the-line D8100 from Nikon!



6D should be entry full frame so.i doubt it would have high megapixel. It would give a free taste to 5D and above as an analogy.


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## DLD (Jan 7, 2016)

I came over last year from Nikon. I'm disappointed in a few things. 

Poor dynamic range, this has been covered, hopefully they improve it.
Poor focus system, not great in low light, a bit inconsistent compared (this is all in comparison to my Nikons)...
No metering on selected focus points, center only...

Everything else is really cool and any updates will be welcome...


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## eninja (Jan 8, 2016)

DLD said:


> I came over last year from Nikon. I'm disappointed in a few things.
> 
> Poor dynamic range, this has been covered, hopefully they improve it.
> Poor focus system, not great in low light, a bit inconsistent compared (this is all in comparison to my Nikons)...
> ...



What makes 6D cool if you don't mind?


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## StrawberryF (Jan 9, 2016)

I strongly doubt the Android switch, but it will be a more than welcome change if camera api functions will be exposed to android apps.


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## nhz (Jan 9, 2016)

eninja said:


> 6D should be entry full frame so.i doubt it would have high megapixel. It would give a free taste to 5D and above as an analogy.



Why not high megapixel? On APS-C the latest Rebel also has the highest MP number, this doesn't seem a problem for Canon when selling far more expensive cameras like 7D2 (although one could argue that the MP difference is smaller on APS-C). Even with a 50 MP sensor Canon would make sure that the 'pro' buyers chose the 5DIV due to framerate, AF, ergonomics or some other 'essential' feature.

For me a 6D2 needs a tilt screen, a more capable AF system and a better sensor; it should also shed some weight and size to separate it from the other FF options. But as mentioned by others, I have a hard time imagining how it is going to compete with a camera like Nikon D750 that seems better in almost every way and is probably cheaper by the time the 6D2 comes to market.


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## eninja (Jan 10, 2016)

nhz said:


> eninja said:
> 
> 
> > 6D should be entry full frame so.i doubt it would have high megapixel. It would give a free taste to 5D and above as an analogy.
> ...



We don't consider 7D2 as camera with high MP. Beacuse 6D was intended for non professional but would like to have flagship image quality. For that type of user we don't want to give them trouble processing and storing, coz high MP file demands expensive equipment and take more time. Also we want entry shooter to learn preserve MP, not just shoot because my camera can crop and still look better. We want them to appreciate taking photo and not to trouble them as much as possible, we want them to appreciate view finder, that is why no swivel screen. Maybe that's the product spec of 6D


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## pedro (Jan 10, 2016)

eninja said:


> nhz said:
> 
> 
> > eninja said:
> ...



*And that's why I think I'll wait until 6DII has surfaced. As the 6D had a lower MP count compared to the 5DIII I could imagine that the case could be similar this time. Sharing my wife's G7x will do for this year and way into the next. Given the case, that they blow the next 5Ds MP beyond 24 MP that wait will be much easier. So, 6D could come in at 24 MP and get stellar IQ next to the new 1Ds workhorse.. Maybe it pays off quite well to do so as an amateur tog mostly doing low light and astro, and a few events/people.*


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## Corydoras (Jan 14, 2016)

Since the 6D is my landscape/low light body illuminated buttons on the back of the camera would be a really nice feature. Even though I know roughly where the buttons are I still make mistakes when it starts to get dark and I can´t see the buttons. I´ll probably wait until the next 5D body is released to see the differences in DR between the upcoming 6D MII and new 5D camera(s). I really hope the 6D MII gets a boost in DR as there have been rumors about DR improvements in 1D X MII and 5D MIV. That way the 6D line would continue to be an affordable option for landscape photography.


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## C and B Scene (Jan 17, 2016)

I wouldn't object to some of this. Android ? Don't know. An extra "C"mode, time lapse (up tot 3f/s), customizable filenames, why not ? And please keep the interchangeable focusing screens, or give us an old fashioned 80s screen. Ever seen the screen in a Praktica MTL5B ?


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## StudentOfLight (Jan 17, 2016)

SOD said:


> :-*
> 
> I expect we will see a 6D Mk II with a new sensor outputting 40+ MP, mostly as an F-U to Nikon. It will be a slightly less robust version of the 51 MP sensor in the 5DS and 5DS R. Giving pros a reason to still prefer the 5DS over the 6D II, yet giving the 6D II more resolution than even the top-of-the-line D8100 from Nikon!


I'd like to see the 6D-II at 32-40MP. i.e. something to target the D800/D800E in terms of image quality but in a less expensive lightweight body with full articulating screen. The 6D was not designed for sports so it didn't need high fps or the best AF system.


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## tcmatthews (Jan 17, 2016)

I still think it is too early to get any real rumors about the 6D II. I hope I am wrong but I put the odds of a November release at 50/50. With a 25% chance it is announced alongside the 5D IV and a 25% chance it is released in 2017.

I am hoping for a co-release with 5DIV but half way expect a release in 2017.


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## nhz (Jan 18, 2016)

StudentOfLight said:


> SOD said:
> 
> 
> > :-*
> ...



If they make the 6D2 lighter and add a tilt screen, none of the 'Pros' will buy it because it looks like a toy camera - even if it has the 5Ds sensor. Problem solved for Canon ;-)

I want a smaller / lighter FF body with tilt screen, better low ISO DR and more capable AF system. Don't need 5D3 level AF, framerate or build quality. Higher resolution like 40-50MP would be nice for cropping mode (to get the same reach / pixel density as with current APS-C bodies, hopefully with decent framerate) but for general use I'm fine with 20-24MP (assuming better per pixel quality). 

However, if the 6D2 is delayed until late 2016 or 2017 it's more likely to be a watered-down version of the 5D4 ;-(


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## StoneColdCoffee (Apr 5, 2016)

Hi CR,
Since you are getting a bit more information about the 5D Mk IV... I wonder if there is any new information on the 6D Mk II? 
The 6D came out about a half year after the 5D Mk III. Should we expect the same to happen in the future? Any sources releasing hints yet?
thanks.

One thing I like about the 5D Mk IV is that by next spring the price will come down a little for purchasing


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 5, 2016)

If the 5D MKIV is a September annoucement / release I could easily see the 6D MKII going into 2017 Qtr1. With Nikon recalling D750s the 6D still looks good as a reliable camera and its IQ still stands up.


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## ahsanford (Apr 5, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> If the 5D MKIV is a September annoucement / release I could easily see the 6D MKII going into 2017 Qtr1.



+1. I won't stab at a date so much as state that Canon usually doesn't roll out FF rigs during the announcement/presale/sale/rollout period... unless there's an earthquake/tsunami involved.

A new FF rig get announced, it gains buzz/momentum, amasses pre-sales, first orders go out, reviews happen, etc. and _*then*_ they think about talking up a new release. By any measure, the 6D2 is third in line behind the 1DX rollout (well underway) and the 5D4 rollout.

- A


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## OrangeBjorn (Apr 13, 2016)

I was looking in Belgium to get a 6D and I saw on the website of one of our biggest electronic retailers (vandeborre.be) a mention of "last pieces" for the 6D. Does this mean the 6DII is coming soon?


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## j-nord (Apr 13, 2016)

OrangeBjorn said:


> I was looking in Belgium to get a 6D and I saw on the website of one of our biggest electronic retailers (vandeborre.be) a mention of "last pieces" for the 6D. Does this mean the 6DII is coming soon?


Define soon? About 1 year from now seems like a reasonable estimate.


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## OrangeBjorn (Apr 13, 2016)

j-nord said:


> Define soon? About 1 year from now seems like a reasonable estimate.



Maybe. I just found it odd they mentioned they won't have it in stock anymore after their current batch is sold.


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## Maximilian (Apr 14, 2016)

OrangeBjorn said:


> j-nord said:
> 
> 
> > Define soon? About 1 year from now seems like a reasonable estimate.
> ...


Hi Bjorn!

I cannot confirm this from German retailers. They all say "on stock" and seem to have lots of them.
But I agree this sounds a little bit odd.


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## OrangeBjorn (Apr 14, 2016)

Maximilian said:


> Hi Bjorn!
> 
> I cannot confirm this from German retailers. They all say "on stock" and seem to have lots of them.
> But I agree this sounds a little bit odd.



Thanks for the update! I was actually about to buy a 6D, but when I saw this I backed off a bit thinking the mk II was about to be announced.


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## Maximilian (Apr 14, 2016)

OrangeBjorn said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Bjorn!
> ...


Not quite sure what Canon is planing here. But with a 1DX2 just released, a 5D4 about to be announced somewhere between now and photokina in September I see no space for a 6D2 announcement before 2017. But don't blame me if Canon is thinking different. And don't forget the price at release will be much higher than what you pay now for the 6D (Body only < 1.400 € in Germany, add. shipping costs to EU).


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## OrangeBjorn (Apr 14, 2016)

Maximilian said:


> Not quite sure what Canon is planing here. But with a 1DX2 just released, a 5D4 about to be announced somewhere between now and photokina in September I see no space for a 6D2 announcement before 2017. But don't blame me if Canon is thinking different. And don't forget the price at release will be much higher than what you pay now for the 6D (Body only < 1.400 € in Germany, add. shipping costs to EU).



Well nobody can predict the future sadly. But your statement would make the most sense. I sold my 5D3 last week. It was total overkill for what I used it for. I shoot mostly landscapes and had always a feeling that the 6D fitted me more for what I do.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 14, 2016)

OrangeBjorn said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Bjorn!
> ...



Over a year ago, the 6D was listed (for a while) as discontinued on amazon.uk.


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 14, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> OrangeBjorn said:
> 
> 
> > Maximilian said:
> ...


Amazon UK stated it was a "mistake" and Canon has heavily promoted the camera in the UK over the Christmas period & into the new year. The dealer I use in Guildford still had plenty of them this past weekend & said they still sell well.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 14, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > OrangeBjorn said:
> ...



Exactly the point. Drawing a conclusion based on a single retailer is unwise. It could be an error, or in the case above a tactic (only three left, buy NOW!!).


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## slclick (Apr 20, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



On that same note, how many conclusions are drawn from CR1's?


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