# Best Possible IQ



## sanj (Dec 10, 2013)

Friends.
I am super excited. I have been asked to take a picture for a large coffee table book and the photo will be a two page spread. Within the next three months I am going to be shooting a landscape photo of an old religious city. I am supposed to take a photo in early morning light on which the client will do a LOT of post work - add and remove elements, color correct etc.

My brief is to shoot this on the best possible format.

My questions: 
1. What should I use? Obviously it should be large format but since I do not know anything about large formats, 'backs' etc., where do I start figuring out how to proceed?
2. Which lens would translate into a 25/35mm of our full frame Canon? I would shoot at f11 so do not need a lens which is great wide open. 
3. Would my heavy Gitzo and Arca be stable enough for this or I would need something else?

Above all I need to know which is the best large format system available today to shoot at ISO 100/125.

I want to stay digital and not shoot on film. 

All help sincerely appreciated.


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## Sporgon (Dec 10, 2013)

I'd shoot it on FF as a stitch. Shoot in portrait, take probably five frames across to give suitable format for a double page spread. You will have to use a longer focal length lens to achieve the appropriate field of view _up and down_. For example a 40mm used in portrait gives same field of view up and down as a 24mm in landscape. Use PTgui professional to stitch. You will end up with a format that is larger than many digital medium format cameras. Note; the final image will be a HUGE file in 16 bit TIFF. 

For a reasonably static subject such as a landscape there is no way I would bother to get bogged down with a larger format system nowadays.


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## sanj (Dec 10, 2013)

Thank you Sporgon, but for the photo I need to take stitch is not possible for the type of work the client requires. 

And I think I need medium format and not large format. Am I right about this?


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## Eldar (Dec 10, 2013)

A friend of mine have the latest 80MP Phase One. He made some shots in the Pyrenees this fall, which I saw in high quality 1mx1.5m prints. Incredible dynamics, resolution, color, the lot.


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## Sporgon (Dec 10, 2013)

sanj said:


> Thank you Sporgon, but for the photo I need to take stitch is not possible for the type of work the client requires.
> 
> And I think I need medium format and not large format. Am I right about this?



Once you have completed the stitch you are left with a single image file like any other, just much larger, effectively shot on a larger format. It can then be edited in the same fashion as any other file; there's no difference. 

If you really wanted digital large format we could help you out with that. We are the UK agents for one of the best known large format cameras. But there's no way you need that for what you've been asked to do, so that leaves you with medium format, but again, personally I don't think you need it.


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## dryanparker (Dec 10, 2013)

Eldar said:


> A friend of mine have the latest 80MP Phase One. He made some shots in the Pyrenees this fall, which I saw in high quality 1mx1.5m prints. Incredible dynamics, resolution, color, the lot.



I'll second this. Phase One and Leaf make huge sensor medium format digital backs. I'd say it's probably worth renting that kind of system for the shoot if your budget allows. Truth is, for a magazine spread you don't need 80MP, or anywhere near it, but it will yield the most headroom for post work.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 10, 2013)

sanj said:


> ...for the photo I need to take stitch is not possible for the type of work the client requires.



Why? Are there going to be moving elements in the scene?


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## sanj (Dec 10, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you Sporgon, but for the photo I need to take stitch is not possible for the type of work the client requires.
> ...



Dearest Sporgon. Stitching will not work as I need to hold the camera steady and then take multiple photos of the same shot every two minutes so the client can delete people that are moving around in the frame and create an empty shot of the place. 

And I will not buy, I will rent it all for 4 odd days. Try the shot every day and pick the one with best morning light.


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## sanj (Dec 10, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > ...for the photo I need to take stitch is not possible for the type of work the client requires.
> ...



There you go Neuro. God you are smart!


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## sanj (Dec 10, 2013)

dryanparker said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > A friend of mine have the latest 80MP Phase One. He made some shots in the Pyrenees this fall, which I saw in high quality 1mx1.5m prints. Incredible dynamics, resolution, color, the lot.
> ...



Thank you both. So I will look up Phase on and Leaf. Are these complete cameras? I do not know what 'back means'. And yes headroom in post work is what is required for this job. I am allowed to rent whatever I want, so why not the best? The rental will be perhaps not so much compared to other expenses: Flights, hotels, etc. 
Thx.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 10, 2013)

sanj said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



Perhaps I should have said, moving elements that you want to keep. If the point is to clone them out anyway, it doesn't really matter if they're in one part of a stitched panorama, but not another part, or if they've moved from one exposure to the next - they're not going to be in the final image anyway.

If people are actually moving, not standing still, you could consider a 10 stop ND filter as a way to effectively remove them. Depending on how populated the area is, stitching may actually make removing the people easier. Say you take a portrait oriented four shot 'FF' pano (giving you a final aspect ratio of 8:3, meaning you would still need to crop the sides off a bit). With your pano head and it's markings, you have predetermined the exact positions for each frame. You shoot several rounds of 1-2-3-4 in succession, then when you go to stitch them together, you might pick frames 1 and 3 from the first series, frame 2 from the second series, and frame 4 from the third series, selecting the ones with the fewest people or no people in each case.

As for holding the camera still, that's what your tripod is for, right?


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## dryanparker (Dec 10, 2013)

sanj said:


> dryanparker said:
> 
> 
> > Eldar said:
> ...



Medium Format cameras tend to be modular in design. That is, the body, lens, viewfinder and sensor (called the "back") are separate elements that are assembled to create the camera. The benefit is that you can use the same camera body (just a box with some electronics, really) with any compatible back. The newest generation of backs go up to 80MP. Both Phase One and Mamiya Leaf make those. Hasselblad is another leading Medium Format player. Leica makes a "Medium Format" DSLR-style camera, the S system. It's a fully-contained system like your interchangeable lens DSLR with a 37.5MP sensor. My understanding is the Leica S is exceptional.

The interchangeable digital backs are very expensive. The 80MP varieties are in the $40k range. As such, the modular system allows you to upgrade the backs without upgrading your entire camera.

Even though it's (arguably) the highest quality, I might warn against blindly renting a system like this for an important shoot if you haven't worked with different formats before. They aren't exactly "plug-and-play", and like anything else, it will most certainly take some practice with the system to get the most from it.

My thinking is the Leica S would offer a more familiar and streamlined workflow. Either way, sounds like a great assignment! Best of luck!!


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## unfocused (Dec 10, 2013)

Just how big is this "coffee table book?"

I can't imagine it will be larger than the largest size print you would make from a 1D or 5D. The reproduction is going to be in CMYK at about 300 DPI, right? Which means it can't possibly be more demanding than an actual print. So long as you shoot at ISO 400 or less, what advantage would larger format offer?

What am I missing here?


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## dryanparker (Dec 10, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Just how big is this "coffee table book?"
> 
> I can't imagine it will be larger than the largest size print you would make from a 1D or 5D. The reproduction is going to be in CMYK at about 300 DPI, right? Which means it can't possibly be more demanding than an actual print. So long as you shoot at ISO 400 or less, what advantage would larger format offer?
> 
> What am I missing here?



You're not missing a thing. I'm a Medium Format devotee, but it's generally unnecessary without a specific need for what it offers. Some will tout the "look"...but only a trained eye can spot that. I got into it because I wanted resolving power for very large prints.

I have to say, if I was the one hired for this shot, I'd be using a 5D3 and a 24mm TSE. If I wanted more resolution, I'd rent the Schneider-Kreuznach 50mm PC lens and do some stitching.


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## chauncey (Dec 10, 2013)

Let me see if I've got this right...It's a coffee table book and the client is doing all the PP work.
Stitch the tripod mounted images using what you have, insuring spot-on camera settings, and move on.
You don't need to make a huge production out of it...when he finishes, you probably won't even recognize it anyway.


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## alexanderferdinand (Dec 10, 2013)

Maybe a little conversation with the people who make this book would be helpful.
The PP- human sure knows what he likes to have and what not?
Wishes and no-gos.
Sounds all a bit diffuse to me.
Sorry, just my first thought I read it.


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## Halfrack (Dec 10, 2013)

What is the budget for this shoot? For the best possible image you can:

-Rent a medium format system for a week, learn enough to shoot the image, and bracket for DR
-Rent a Canon 5d mk3 and use a TS-E lens and bracket/stitch the snot out of it
-Rent a D800e/A7r and lens or adapter to use existing Canon glass

OP would help us a lot by letting us know what gear you already have. How wide or long the shot will be (aka you're going to use every bit of the frame, so are you shooting at 24mm, 85mm or a 200mm?)

Have you already shot the image the client is looking to publish? If not, do a survey of the shot with the gear you have, and see if and where you have an issue. Depending on the shot, you may be better off with a technical camera like an Alpa/Arca/Cambo - even if you pair it with a low resolution 22-30mp Phase One or Leaf back.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 10, 2013)

I'd stick with a camera that you know how to use. Getting a medium format camera, learning that the lens you thought was right was not, and generally becoming expert with it is too much to absorb in three or four days.

Rent a heavy tripod, panorama head, or use a tilt-shift lens and you should get fantastic results. If the PP user is good, let him do the final stitching. I'd think that by having multiple images of the same subject, it would be easy to remove people or moving objects and paste in the area from a image where they were not there, or select a image to include in the stitching where the person had moved on. So many good possibilities.


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## pdirestajr (Dec 10, 2013)

How about go totally crazy and rock one of those Sigma DP Merill cameras!


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## emag (Dec 10, 2013)

OP, You posed a question to the forum to gain some insight / tips. I can't anything to what has already been stated....but....having seen Sporgon's work I'd be inclined to take his advice if I was in a similar situation. I've also played around with the technique Neuro mentioned, stitching shots taken with an ND10 filter to get rid of people. You have time to perfect these methods. Renting a camera system you're unfamiliar with for what is an important assignment seems to me akin to renting a stickshift with a worn clutch for one day in San Francisco.


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## dr croubie (Dec 10, 2013)

You want "the best", or "the best within budget"?
For backs, there's the IQ180, but there's also the new IQ280. The main advantage of the 280 over the 180 is that the 280 doesn't crap out on long exposures, get one of them for 1min+.
Going the Hasselblad route, there's the H4D200MS, it's a 50MP sensor that shifts itself by 1/2 a pixel in between 4 shots and stitches them internally to a 200MP image.
Or there's the Leica S2 and Pentax 645D. Both are 'only' 40MP, but for anything less than A2 size you can just as easily use a 35mm 20MP sensor.

Bodies, there's the Mamiya / Phase One 645DF, or any Mamiya 645 with a D in its name (ie all but the 645AF). If you're tripod-mounted you probably won't need any of the functions that come with the newer bodies.
Or there's the Alpa 12FPS, a camera designed to have higher IQ by having less shutter-induced shake (less than even a leaf shutter).
Hasselblad, Leica, and Pentax you're stuck with the bodies that you get.

Lenses, the Leica S2 has Leica quality glass. 'nuff said.
Hasselblad, you're getting their name-brand stuff too (used to be made by Zeiss, now by Fuji, either way, it's damn nice).
Phasemiya, there's the 28mm LS which is very sharp but possibly too wide for you, the 'new digital' 35mm I haven't tried but I definitly wasn't impressed by my 'C' copy of the old version.
Alpa, you can use their extremely nice (with pricetags to match) LF 'alpagon' lenses (rebadged Rodenstock Apo Sironar HR). Or you can get it with any mount you like, even EF.
And on all of those bodies you can use lenses with a longer flange via adapter, like Hassy V, Pentacon 6, Bronica, Rollei 6000, Pentax 67, etc etc...


Or realistically, a 6D with a 24mm TSE or 35mm Sigma/Zeiss is going to be more than enough for a simple book that doesn't cost $5 per page to print at stupid resolutions...

ps, a 25-35mm lens on 'FF' (24x36mm) equates to a 38-55mm on '645' (56x37mm once it's cropped, I'll presume you're cropping more panoramic than 3x2).
But don't forget digital 645 sensors aren't as big as 645 film, depending on the sensor you get you may have to get a wider lens to account for a smaller sensor...


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## eml58 (Dec 10, 2013)

Eldar said:


> A friend of mine have the latest 80MP Phase One. He made some shots in the Pyrenees this fall, which I saw in high quality 1mx1.5m prints. Incredible dynamics, resolution, color, the lot.



I agree with Eldar Sanj, if you want the best possible IQ, Phase One 645 with the IQ280 Digital Back & perhaps the Schneider 28f/4.5 LS if your using Flash, or the 28f/4.5 AF Phase One Lens if no Flash. Schnieder also make amazingly good Tilt shift Lenses, the new 50 TS Super Angulon I've tried and it's superb.

Problem may be wether or not you can Rent the gear where you are, if in the US I wouldn't see an issue, but because this gear is sooooo expensive it's difficult to Rent in most Countries.

I've toyed with the idea of the Phase one for some time, but you need to be seriously into Landscape or Studio to step up to the cost of this gear. The Images that come out of the IQ280 Back are just amazingly good, but @ 80MP you pay for it.


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## Orangutan (Dec 11, 2013)

sanj said:


> Dearest Sporgon. Stitching will not work as I need to hold the camera steady and then take multiple photos of the same shot every two minutes so the client can delete people that are moving around in the frame and create an empty shot of the place.
> 
> And I will not buy, I will rent it all for 4 odd days. Try the shot every day and pick the one with best morning light.



It would be easy for you to do a quick test of the stitching method using the suggestions others have made. You may also find info on the web about how to do this. It may take less effort (and cost) do learn this on your own equipment than to learn new equipment. A quick experiment costs you nothing but a little time. If it's successful, it's a new technical skill to add to your "kit."


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## unfocused (Dec 11, 2013)

sanj said:


> ...Stitching will not work as I need to hold the camera steady and then take multiple photos of the same shot every two minutes so the client can delete people that are moving around in the frame and create an empty shot of the place.



For what it is worth, Martin Evening has a tutorial in his "Adobe Photoshop Ultimate Workhsop" book (at least he did in the CS4 version) on using multiple images to remove tourists from the "bean" in Chicago. You might check with your client to see if this is the sort of thing they are contemplating. (He actually shot about 100+ images over an hour and stacked them in Photoshop to remove the people)


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## sanj (Dec 11, 2013)

unfocused said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > ...Stitching will not work as I need to hold the camera steady and then take multiple photos of the same shot every two minutes so the client can delete people that are moving around in the frame and create an empty shot of the place.
> ...



Thank you, will check. This is exactly what needs to be done. The question now is, should I shoot this on format better than my 5d3 or not? Would not a larger format help in cleaner post?


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## sanj (Dec 11, 2013)

chauncey said:


> Let me see if I've got this right...It's a coffee table book and the client is doing all the PP work.
> Stitch the tripod mounted images using what you have, insuring spot-on camera settings, and move on.
> You don't need to make a huge production out of it...when he finishes, you probably won't even recognize it anyway.



Yes, I will not recognize it I am sure. There is complete transparency here. He will clone out people, add sky etc.


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## sanj (Dec 11, 2013)

Thank you all for the valuable insights. I have learnt a lot. Still bit confused, but clarity is coming in. 

Am attaching a photo of roughly where I will be. Not exactly here but similar situation.


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## sanj (Dec 11, 2013)

dr croubie said:


> You want "the best", or "the best within budget"?
> For backs, there's the IQ180, but there's also the new IQ280. The main advantage of the 280 over the 180 is that the 280 doesn't crap out on long exposures, get one of them for 1min+.
> Going the Hasselblad route, there's the H4D200MS, it's a 50MP sensor that shifts itself by 1/2 a pixel in between 4 shots and stitches them internally to a 200MP image.
> Or there's the Leica S2 and Pentax 645D. Both are 'only' 40MP, but for anything less than A2 size you can just as easily use a 35mm 20MP sensor.
> ...



Phew! Thx.


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## hendrik-sg (Dec 11, 2013)

I dont want to offend you, but.....

If i would need (and pay for) this shot i wouldnt give the order to someone woh has to ask in a forum about equipment. 

If i take my skills/equipment as a comparision, i would say most bad pics are bad as a result of lacking skill not because of bad equipment. 

but anyway two thoughts:

- are the demands so high because the customer knows that a normal FF Shot is not enough, or is this your first order and you want to do your best?
- if there are trees, water, boats or anything other that might move, stitching might be difficult if there is any wind at all. 
- maybe do testshot (of anything else) and practise the workflow with the guy who does the PP, costs less than renting MF equipment

For me using unknown equipment (recommended by forum useres) would be a no go, if you do any mistakes, bad settings etc, the results may be worse than with your normal equipment. Example: give a 85ii 1.2 and a 5diii to a rebel shooter who shoots with kit zoom in automatic mode and ask him to take portraits/party pics in low light. I would bet hard money that he will get not even one sharp shot.


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## Hillsilly (Dec 11, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> If people are actually moving, not standing still, you could consider a 10 stop ND filter as a way to effectively remove them.



Probably not telling you anything you don't know, but I'd second this and suggest you give it a try as part of the shoot. During the very early morning, a 10 stop filter will require fairly long exposures. Depending upon the light and your aperture, you might be able to push the exposure out to the 2 to 4 minute range. Most people won't stay still for that long. And, as if by magic, anyone who is moving won't appear in the final image. Instant ghost town. That'll save a lot of work later (even if the work is being done by someone else). So, give them what they asked for with the multiple shots (to show that you can follow instructions), then give them what they need (so that you become the photographer they'll always turn to.) 

You can also stack ND filters, giving significantly longer exposure times and greater people removing ability. Adding another 3 stop ND, will turn a 4 minute exposure into (in theory) a 32 minute exposure - but its not that simple - as the sun rises, your exposure times need to reduce, so there's a little experimentation involved. But you could just set this up on your normal camera with a 20 minute / 25 minute exposure while you play around with the medium format gear. If you like the results on day one, put the ND filters on the medium format camera on day two and try it with the better gear.


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## Deva (Dec 11, 2013)

sanj said:


> Thank you all for the valuable insights. I have learnt a lot. Still bit confused, but clarity is coming in.
> 
> Am attaching a photo of roughly where I will be. Not exactly here but similar situation.



ok, having now seen an example of the sort of scene you'll be photographing, can we go back to your original question - what exactly is intended to be included in the picture? Do you want to get rid of all the people? The smoke? The moving boats? Is it meant to be a sun-lit scene (i.e. with shadows) or overcast?

What you want to include - or not - makes a big difference to how you could do this.


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## Northstar (Dec 11, 2013)

sanj said:


> Thank you all for the valuable insights. I have learnt a lot. Still bit confused, but clarity is coming in.
> 
> Am attaching a photo of roughly where I will be. Not exactly here but similar situation.



My first thought was similar to a few others about a 10 stop filter.... But I see boats and water so that idea won't work.

I agree with some others that you don't need med format, just use FF and stitching....you would become a more well rounded photographer by learning a new technique...stitching is only going to become more popular in the future with the ever increasing number of internet connected tablets and computers for viewing huge stitched photos.


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## dryanparker (Dec 11, 2013)

Well, I have to admit, reading more of the comments and seeing the location has changed my view a bit.

1) If you've never used a medium format digital system, this is probably not the best time to test drive it. Even accomplished photographers will have some measure of learning when changing formats. Not saying it can't be done, I just wouldn't dive into it blind. If you have a week or so ahead of the shoot, extending the rental would be hugely beneficial for practice. (I'm assuming you're already a competent and accomplished photographer.) I'd also get input from the rental company's representative as to the best system and lens for this particular shoot.

2) As mentioned in prior posts, I'm a medium format guy, but if I'm in your position, I wouldn't use it for this. It's just not needed, and I have my doubts that your client will notice the difference. Remember: IQ doesn't necessarily follow image size. 60-80MP are awesome to have, but most images in coffee table books weren't shot using that kind of gear.

3) As for the scene, I think you'll have trouble isolating or removing all the people. That's a tricky move that will require careful planning and a number of exposures. Also, I think shift movements are important given the proximity to the buildings, but that is based on the look you'd like to achieve.

Recommendation: 5D3 + TS-E 24 II (with or without movements, it's a brilliant lens)


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 11, 2013)

dryanparker said:


> Recommendation: 5D3 + TS-E 24 II (with or without movements, it's a brilliant lens)



Seconded. Just like with MF, if you've not used a TS-E lens before, getting it a day or two before you need to use it is important for practice (especially if you'll be using tilt for more DoF at wider apertures, although it doesn't look like that would be needd based on your example shot, and shift is easier to use). Same for a pano head (you'll want time to find the 'nodal point' of the lens you'll be using, too).

Looks like the example image that was attached was shot with a Fujji X100 - that means a FF-equivalent FoV of ~35mm. Depending on the needed aspect ratio, you could shoot 2-3 shots in portrait orientation (need a L-bracket) with a TS-E 24L II, using shift to correct the keystoning. That would give you plenty of resolution in the stitched image, excellent IQ, etc.


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## sanj (Dec 11, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> dryanparker said:
> 
> 
> > Recommendation: 5D3 + TS-E 24 II (with or without movements, it's a brilliant lens)
> ...



I have had the 24 ts with me for a while and love shooting with it although I am not up to speed with tilt/shift concepts to the fullest.

BUT what I want to know is how on earth did you know it was shot from Fuji x100?


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## pato (Dec 11, 2013)

It's still in the picture data embedded. If you open the file in a HEX editor you'll see several adobe comments, one of them is "Digital Camera Fine Pix X100 Ver1.30".


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## sanj (Dec 11, 2013)

dryanparker said:


> Well, I have to admit, reading more of the comments and seeing the location has changed my view a bit.
> 
> 1) If you've never used a medium format digital system, this is probably not the best time to test drive it. Even accomplished photographers will have some measure of learning when changing formats. Not saying it can't be done, I just wouldn't dive into it blind. If you have a week or so ahead of the shoot, extending the rental would be hugely beneficial for practice. (I'm assuming you're already a competent and accomplished photographer.) I'd also get input from the rental company's representative as to the best system and lens for this particular shoot.
> 
> ...



I think I am going to forget large/medium format.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 11, 2013)

sanj said:


> I think I am going to forget large/medium format.



It's nothing to be sad about. What matters is using the right tool for the job, and the 'biggest' tool isn't always the best one…


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## sanj (Dec 11, 2013)




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## sanj (Dec 11, 2013)

I may go ahead with 5d3 on this one, but I have made a promise to myself that I am going to test out the medium formats personally in the near future and judge for myself.

For the life of me I cant figure out why so many of you are saying there will not be an IQ difference on a coffee table book if shot on a 35mm 23mp camera vs a larger 60mp sensor....

Must get to the bottom of this!


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## serendipidy (Dec 11, 2013)

sanj said:


> I may go ahead with 5d3 on this one, but I have made a promise to myself that I am going to test out the medium formats personally in the near future and judge for myself.
> 
> For the life of me I cant figure out why so many of you are saying there will not be an IQ difference on a coffee table book if shot on a 35mm 23mp camera vs a larger 60mp sensor....
> 
> Must get to the bottom of this!



Join the circle of confusion


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## dryanparker (Dec 11, 2013)

sanj said:


> I may go ahead with 5d3 on this one, but I have made a promise to myself that I am going to test out the medium formats personally in the near future and judge for myself.
> 
> For the life of me I cant figure out why so many of you are saying there will not be an IQ difference on a coffee table book if shot on a 35mm 23mp camera vs a larger 60mp sensor....
> 
> Must get to the bottom of this!



I'd say this is an excellent idea.

The 5D3 is more than capable of delivering professional results with knowledgeable operation and an eye for composition. I believe a great image is made when you know how to use the tools at your disposal. Some of my favorite images were made with a 7D, and those 18MP look great even on a 24x36 canvas.

80MP images aren't necessarily better...only larger. You still have to know how to use the tools to match your creative vision. I'd much rather have a beautiful 23MP image than poor 80MP!

One final note on the 80MP: files that size are most helpful in areas like fashion photography when you're cropping into an image and need to maintain a high resulting resolution.


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## brianboru (Dec 11, 2013)

pato said:


> It's still in the picture data embedded. If you open the file in a HEX editor you'll see several adobe comments, one of them is "Digital Camera Fine Pix X100 Ver1.30".



Or, if you don't have or want a Hex editor, there are browser plugins like "FxIF" for Firefox 

Interestingly enough, it's not the camera model field, it's the "Software" field that says "Digital Camera FinePix X100 Ver1.30". 

So the software stripped all identifiable info and then added identifiable info.


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## dryanparker (Dec 11, 2013)

dryanparker said:


> One final note on the 80MP: files that size are most helpful in areas like fashion photography when you're cropping into an image and need to maintain a high resulting resolution.



...or you're an animal who shoots landscapes or architecture and just loves making massive images. Who are we kidding? That's a totally viable use of the platform. And thank goodness, because that's why I got into medium format. (Of course, I had to opt for film due to the price, but it's definitely fun!)

Best of luck with the shoot!


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 11, 2013)

serendipidy said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I cant figure out why so many of you are saying there will not be an IQ difference on a coffee table book if shot on a 35mm 23mp camera vs a larger 60mp sensor....
> ...



+1

It's really about the output. The best quality commercial offset printing is done via halftone screening at ~200 lines per inch (LPI) - that's for art books, as opposed to magazines and newsprint which use lower resolution screens (in the 80-150 LPI range). Printers generally want twice that in dots per inch (DPI) of digital resolution. 

Most coffee table books that I have and have seen are square. That means a 2-page spread will have an aspect ratio between 2:1 and 2.4:1 (allowing a 1" border with no gutter, bigger books get closer to 2:1). To cover that aspect ratio, you'd need a 4-frame stitch from your 3:2 sensor in portrait orientation (~3.3 frames needed, but you always need overlap to stitch). With the 22 MP of the 5DIII, that gives you ~70 MP final image. A 2-page spread of a 12x12" coffee table book means a 22x10" image, so at 400 dpi you need 8800x4000 pixels, or 35 MP…you'd have twice the amount of resolution you need. That 70 MP image would be sufficient for a 2-page spread in a coffee table book of up to about 16x16". 

If you need to go larger, you can use a longer focal length and stitch a two-row pano together, although that gets a little more complicated (you need a multirow pano setup, rather than just a single-row). You can put a 1.x4III behind your TS-E 24L II, and still have excellent resolution and IQ from the combo.


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## serendipidy (Dec 11, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> serendipidy said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



Neuro...as always, a clear and succinct explanation of the problem. Thank you for posting. We all learn so much from you on this site. 8)


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## acoll123 (Dec 11, 2013)

dryanparker said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Just how big is this "coffee table book?"
> ...




5DIII and TSE lens would be the way I would do this as well. Shift the lens from side to side and the stitch the images. You might get a panning head to help keep the stitched images in lines as well.

Andy


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## unfocused (Dec 11, 2013)

Sanj,

You always underestimate yourself when you are one of the best photographers I've seen. They picked you because of your great portfolio. Relax.

Just call the client and tell them you want to make sure you provide them with the files they need. Ask to talk to whomever is doing post-processing and find out how they envision accomplishing this. (They'll probably be so amazed that a photographer actually talked to them before the shoot that they'll love you forever.) 

You can explain that you see several possible approaches and you want to talk about how he or she envisions the final product. Personally, I'm not comfortable with the ND filter approach because it's kind of a one shot, roll the dice sort of thing and the risk of getting "ghosts" is really strong. (See the first ever recorded picture of a human being: Niepce's Paris Street Scene, where the guy getting his shoes shined shows up because he was standing still while the rest of the people on the street were moving)

I've never tried the approach recommended by Martin Evening, but it seems to me that would be a lot safer provided the person doing the processing understands what they are doing. 

Honestly, I'm a little worried about not knowing their expectations. It's very possible that the only post-processing they intend to do is converting and tweaking the images for CMYK. He/she may have a heart attack if you give them 50 or 60 files that need to be merged without talking to them first.

As far as cameras, any full frame will be more than adequate. Heck, you could probably shoot it on a 7D and be fine. Remember, the major limiting factor is going to be the output resolution, not the capture resolution.


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## Northstar (Dec 12, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Sanj,
> 
> You always underestimate yourself when you are one of the best photographers I've seen. They picked you because of your great portfolio. Relax.
> 
> ...



very good advice here…very good.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 12, 2013)

acoll123 said:


> 5DIII and TSE lens would be the way I would do this as well. Shift the lens from side to side and the stitch the images. You might get a panning head to help keep the stitched images in lines as well.



I wouldn't do a shift-pano for two reasons. One, it's a two frame stitch (you can shoot three, but you get the width of two), and in portrait orientation that gives a 4:3 aspect ratio - not enough for a 2-page spread. Two, I'm not sure how representative the example shot Sanj posted is, but if shooting from a lower angle with buildings on a ridge, shift would be better used to correct for keystoning.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 12, 2013)

There are many considerations for this task and here are a few observations I would ponder while planning a similar job.

First off, I print decent sizes from 135 format images and I have shot for artists art books, most of the time they are OK but in many conditions a medium format capture will wipe the floor of 135 with regards detail, tonality and DR, even in modest sized prints, especially in challenging light (like early mornings). But it can be very subject and style dependent, without knowing the post processors style it is impossible to say whether MF is a better approach for this specific image.

Second, if you are shooting at Varanasi from a boat stitching isn't a practical option. I have done it.

Third, if you intend to use shift, nodal/entry point stitching is not an option, well I have never managed it, all I ever got was some weird projection anomalies.

Fourth, if you intend to do a traditional stitch with a 135 format TS-E 24 to get a 35mm fov then you'd need to use a 2XTC, and whilst the TS-E 24 is a sublime lens you cannot fail to take an IQ hit. If "Best Possible IQ" truthfully is the goal that is not the way to get it.

Fifth, MF is not that steep a learning curve, you will need a laptop with lots of RAM and HDD space, and shooting tethered really helps. If you have methodically shot landscapes etc then there are no real gottchas to worry about.

Sixth, shooting MF opens up a plethora of exotic very high quality lenses that will give you 80MP of detail and massive DR in one shot.

Seven, if you do go the 135 format route the best way to shoot for a 2:1 aspect ratio is a TS-E 24 + 1.4 TC and do a four shift "rotation" stitch. That is four diagonally shifted images, this method gives good overlap and enough cropping distance to lose the corners closest to the image circle.

Eight, email Roger over at LensRentals, he loves a challenge like this and will tell you straight what body, lens and software combo would be most effective.

These are just a few things I'd mull over in preparation. As a first thought, with "Best Possible IQ" in the brief, it would take an awful lot to make me drop rented MF to even consider 135 (and I am a huge 135 format fan), the differences are not just pixel numbers, but AA filters, DR and tonality.


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## Radiating (Dec 12, 2013)

Why not just use an array of DSLR's with synced shutters?

http://www.breezesys.com/Images/30Darray.jpg

http://www.breezesys.com/MultiCamera/

Using 3 Nikon D800's you would have TWICE the image quality of the best medium format camera.

This would deliver the highest possible image quality.

Especially paired with a very high quality 50mm lens like the new nikon 58mm.


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## sanj (Dec 12, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> There are many considerations for this task and here are a few observations I would ponder while planning a similar job.
> 
> First off, I print decent sizes from 135 format images and I have shot for artists art books, most of the time they are OK but in many conditions a medium format capture will wipe the floor of 135 with regards detail, tonality and DR, even in modest sized prints, especially in challenging light (like early mornings). But it can be very subject and style dependent, without knowing the post processors style it is impossible to say whether MF is a better approach for this specific image.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much. So much valuable information. You are the rare one who says medium format will look better even in small size prints. 

We intend to get a sturdy crane which will go out about 10 ft into the river and improve the angle of photo. I am not looking at a stitch option, the job requires several photos taken at quick succession to later remove people and create an 'empty' shot. 

When we rent stuff like MF in Bombay it comes with a guy who knows the camera technically.


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## sanj (Dec 12, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Sanj,
> 
> You always underestimate yourself when you are one of the best photographers I've seen. They picked you because of your great portfolio. Relax.
> 
> ...



Thank you so so much for your kind words and advice.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 12, 2013)

sanj said:


> Thank you so much. So much valuable information. You are the rare one who says medium format will look better even in small size prints.
> 
> We intend to get a sturdy crane which will go out about 10 ft into the river and improve the angle of photo. I am not looking at a stitch option, the job requires several photos taken at quick succession to later remove people and create an 'empty' shot.
> 
> When we rent stuff like MF in Bombay it comes with a guy who knows the camera technically.



Hm, a crane, not sure how that will work, especially if it is from the "similar position" you posted earlier. There is no way you'll get a crane of any size down from the street to the waters edge anywhere near Manikarnika Ghat, and water level/time of year is a huge consideration, further, the reach a crane would need to get you out far enough from level ground is not a simple task. 

Also, 10ft out into the river will probably need a much wider lens, I was 15- 20 feet out for this shot with a 28mm lens on ff.


This is not a camera gear issue, rather a logistical issue.


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## Halfrack (Dec 12, 2013)

A crane - yea, not going to work well between the basket you will be in to shoot the image will always be moving. With that, stitching/stacking/ND filters isn't going to work. You may get away with an extra tall tripod if the water is shallow enough. You'd be better off getting as big a barge/boat as you can afford. 

What is the path of the sun for the shot on the days you'll be shooting? You will need the fill lighting.

Has the discussions with the client gotten you a bit more information as to the files they are expecting from you? Can you give them another 5d mk3 file as a test and see if it meets their publishing needs? If you need more resolution, the cheap method is Nikon/Sony as a single shot, or the expensive way is the DMF method. 
The Pentax 645D can be rented from Roger at LR, operates much like a DSLR, but Pentax glass is hard to come by. Other shops can rent you a Hasselblad or Phase One kit, but unless you're budgeting for it in time and expense it can be prohibitive. Since you said the rental would come with a guy, make sure you still have the time to work with the digital tech ahead of time.

Personally, I'd do it with a Hasselblad H4/5D -50 or -60 and the 35-90mm HCD lens. You're going to want room to crop & level the shot. The Phase One kit would do a slightly better job, but you'd be using the 75-150mm lens - focal or leaf shutter doesn't really matter. The ultimate would be a Phase One back with a Arca/Alpa/Cambo technical camera body and a Rodenstock or Schneider lens setup (designed more for landscape photography and infinite focus, but all manual and no zooms).


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## sanj (Dec 13, 2013)

Thank you guys. Again. Keeping everything in mind...

We were considering a professional telescopic crane I use in motion pictures. Will make a test..


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## Sporgon (Dec 13, 2013)

If there is going to be water and smoke in the picture this will certainly cause difficulty in stitching, especially if the water is disturbed by boats or wind. I'm currently down in the South East of England shooting around the Norfolk Broad, an area littered with creeks and waterways, and the stitching is taking some doing. 

However, 'best IQ' at the size stated ? We all know technique has as big an impact as anything when it comes to 'IQ'. Any FF camera coupled with a good lens and technique must be able to fit the bill here.

My concern over MF would be unfamiliarity with the gear and focal length required, but if you are confident that this will not be a problem, and have the _desire_ to shoot on digital MF then go for it


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