# NEW - Sony FF mirrorless cameras + new lenses to support



## Dylan777 (Oct 14, 2013)

WOW....This is the moment I been waiting for : : :

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/

If the body is same or slightly bigger than RX1, I'M ALL IN.

My wish list: 
1. A7 or A7R?
2. 55mm f1.8
3. 14,16 or 17mm
4. 85mm 

Will sell some of my Canon gear to get the list above ???  :  ;D ;D 

Anyone?

Edit: I want one NOW 

Edit: Final answer is A7 + Zeiss 50mm f1.8


----------



## tron (Oct 14, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> WOW....This is the moment I been waiting for : : :
> 
> http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/
> 
> ...


Judging from the series of emoticons I guess you are joking ;D

Otherwise I would like to read from you that you sold your f/2.8 L II zooms to fund the mentioned equipment ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 14, 2013)

tron said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > WOW....This is the moment I been waiting for : : :
> ...



I'm not.

List of gear I might put on CL to build FF compact system:
1. one of my 5D III
2. 50L

I might end up with just 1 5D III + 70-200, 85L II and/or 135L etc...not sure yet. However, I do know exactly what I *NEED & WANT*. A compact FF, mirrorless system that I can change lenses. Keep in my, I'm the owner of RX1. 

I know compact FF mirrorless is not for everyone, however, it's for me. I'm not sure when Mr. Canon will be on board with this type of camera system. To me, they too busy making "IS" primes for video shooter.


----------



## tron (Oct 14, 2013)

It's just that you are such a 24-70 f/2.8 L II fan that made me hard to believe that you are going to sell it. 50L I can understand though...


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 14, 2013)

tron said:


> It's just that you are such a 24-70 f/2.8 L II fan that made me hard to believe that you are going to sell it. 50L I can understand though...



Not just 24-70 II, I love all my L babies.


----------



## Gino (Oct 14, 2013)

Dylan,

I'm also excited about the new Sony A7 & A7R as well...I've been following the updates over at sonyalpharumors. I will purchase this camera, probably the A7! Hopefully the camera has a good autofocus system.

This new FF camera system will be a great light weight set-up for travel. Hopefully Sony comes out with a strong lens line-up. I'm hoping Sony comes out with a strong UWA lens, because it would be nice lighter weight set-up to carry in my bag, along side my Canon 5dMIII w/70-200mm f/2.8 L.

thanks


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 14, 2013)

Gino said:


> Dylan,
> 
> I'm also excited about the new Sony A7 & A7R as well...I've been following the updates over at sonyalpharumors. I will purchase this camera, probably the A7! Hopefully the camera has a good autofocus system.
> 
> ...



We might be the only two here 

I'm glad Sony starts with 55mm prime. I'm not sure why just f1.8? why not f1.2 or f1.4.


----------



## 9VIII (Oct 14, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> Gino said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan,
> ...



That was my first thought.
If you're going to have launch lenses, it should be an f1.4 35mm, 50mm and 85mm.
I'm guessing those versions will be coming and they just wanted to get the mediocre "kit" versions out the door as soon as possible. At least the 70-200f4 should be good, given that those are usually the highest IQ zoom lenses made by any given company.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 14, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> We might be the only two here



Maybe... 

I am interested to see how the phase AF of the A7 performs (the A7R supposedly won't have it).


----------



## JohnnyT (Oct 14, 2013)

New here, been lurking.
So I guess I just dont get the full frame mirrorless excitment!
My thought is small mirrorless body, APS-C sensor, small light weight lenses, decent lens speed.
Full Frame sensor means fast lenses are BIG lenses! Not really conducive for light weight travel kits.
Enjoying my full frame 6D and multiple L lenses, but they are heavy!


----------



## Gino (Oct 14, 2013)

JohnnyT said:


> New here, been lurking.
> So I guess I just dont get the full frame mirrorless excitment!
> My thought is small mirrorless body, APS-C sensor, small light weight lenses, decent lens speed.
> Full Frame sensor means fast lenses are BIG lenses! Not really conducive for light weight travel kits.
> Enjoying my full frame 6D and multiple L lenses, but they are heavy!



I think I've become a full frame sensor snob, because I just can't get excited about the crop sensor image quality, and it would be nice to have a lightweight FF set-up when I don't want to kill my back carrying one of my full size DSLRs.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 14, 2013)

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-hot-first-full-size-images-of-the-a7-and-a7r-cameras-with-lenses/

Sony FF-mirrorless - almost here, finally! Compact and halfway affordable. 
Ugly as hell on the outside. 
Inside rather interesting - 24 MP PDAF-sensor with AA-filter and 36 MP Sensor without AA-filter. Next gen from Nikon D600 and D800. Only thing really missing is 5-axis in-body image-stabilizer. And tilt-only display rather than fully articulated LCD is a PITA. But let's see, what they will offer in terms of handling and IQ. 

If good, it will hopefully hit and hurt Canon and Nikon in a really bad way.


----------



## Gino (Oct 14, 2013)

When Sony announces the new A7(r) this week, they are also supposed to be announcing the mapping of future lenses for the new system.

Also, the sensors for these cameras are brand new, so I'll be anxious to see how they compare to the Nikon sensors, which Sony manufactured.


----------



## JohnnyT (Oct 14, 2013)

My thought is, I have one full frame body, and multiple wonderfull L lenses whose mass equal 2 or 3 time that of my fullframe body.
I'd love to carry them all, but oh my aching back!
For a travel kit I'd like lighter lesses of equal quality to my L glass, as well as the lighter body.
Also smaller lenses typically cost less, less glass, less metal, hence less mass.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 14, 2013)

The problem with Sony has been poor customer support to a extreme. A 2-3 month turnaround for repairs is not something I'd ever buy into. Then, they have also dropped support entirely for items that didn't sell well, even entire product lines. This hasn't happened yet with mirrorless cameras, but I don't recall seeing any new ff lenses since they dropped ff DSLR bodies. Owners are possibly never going to see upgrades. I guess buying a throw away P&S camera is fine, but spending large amounts on a system that they will drop at the tip of the hat does not appeal to me.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 14, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The problem with Sony has been poor customer support to a extreme. A 2-3 month turnaround for repairs is not something I'd ever buy into. Then, they have also dropped support entirely for items that didn't sell well, even entire product lines. This hasn't happened yet with mirrorless cameras, but I don't recall seeing any new ff lenses since they dropped ff DSLR bodies. Owners are possibly never going to see upgrades. I guess buying a throw away P&S camera is fine, but spending large amounts on a system that they will drop at the tip of the hat does not appeal to me.



these are some of the reasons why I will not pre-order a Sony A7 or A7r. My hope is, that they'll sell well enough to really hurt Canon and force them to come up with everything that would normally have gone into a 5D IV ... in a small mirrorless box. At a very reasonable price. That's the one I'm really after, actually. ;-)


----------



## nWmR12 (Oct 14, 2013)

JohnnyT said:


> New here, been lurking.
> So I guess I just dont get the full frame mirrorless excitment!
> My thought is small mirrorless body, APS-C sensor, small light weight lenses, decent lens speed.
> Full Frame sensor means fast lenses are BIG lenses! Not really conducive for light weight travel kits.
> Enjoying my full frame 6D and multiple L lenses, but they are heavy!



I would love to have a FF "small" kit, even with my DSLR system, just for taking around daily. The advantages I see are that you have the FF look, which is one of the things I like about FF and IQ. Crop was never exciting for me, then again it has been years since I have used one extensively. Also they don't necessarily have to be big lens, i.e Leica M. Another thing even if weight was only slightly less, something less obtrusive would be so much more welcomed when traveling.


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 14, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > We might be the only two here
> ...



Until I see real spec...phase AF seems to be a better choice for me.


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 14, 2013)

JohnnyT said:


> New here, been lurking.
> So I guess I just dont get the full frame mirrorless excitment!
> My thought is small mirrorless body, APS-C sensor, small light weight lenses, decent lens speed.
> Full Frame sensor means fast lenses are BIG lenses! Not really conducive for light weight travel kits.
> Enjoying my full frame 6D and multiple L lenses, but they are heavy!



Have you ever shoot with RX1?


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 14, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-hot-first-full-size-images-of-the-a7-and-a7r-cameras-with-lenses/
> 
> Sony FF-mirrorless - almost here, finally! Compact and halfway affordable.
> Ugly as hell on the outside.  Inside rather interesting - 24 MP PDAF-sensor with AA-filter and 36 MP Sensor without AA-filter. Next gen from Nikon D600 and D800. Only thing really missing is 5-axis in-body image-stabilizer. And tilt-only display rather than fully articulated LCD is a PITA. But let's see, what they will offer in terms of handling and IQ.
> ...



It looks good to me. The most important thing now is body size. I have a feeling it's slightly bigger than RX1.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 14, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> It looks good to me. The most important thing now is body size. I have a feeling it's slightly bigger than RX1.


of course it will be slightly larger than a RX-1 body. The A7/R have a NEX-grip glued on up front and a Oly OMD-1 pyramidal hump on top. 
But it is smaller than a Leica M. And no mechanical "Messy-Sucher". And cost is only a third.  



> Here is an image comparison between the A7 and Leica M made by Vaclav (Thanks!). It’s a photoshop work and the A7 carries the Zeiss 50mm f/2.0 ZM lens









http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/short-news-secret-code-to-save-25-on-the-a7-a7r-sigma-announces-24-105mm-a-mount-lens/


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 14, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > It looks good to me. The most important thing now is body size. I have a feeling it's slightly bigger than RX1.
> ...



I just saw this and this is why I want one NOW. I will pre-order it with 50mm f1.8: http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/the-a7-vs-leica-m9-vs-canon-5d-size-comaprison-by-vaclav-mach/


----------



## JohnnyT (Oct 14, 2013)

Dylan777 writes: Have you ever shoot with RX1?
No, and it is not an interchangeable lens camera, whats your point?

Quote
"Here is an image comparison between the A7 and Leica M made by Vaclav (Thanks!). It’s a photoshop work and the A7 carries the Zeiss 50mm f/2.0 ZM lens

I'm liking the looks of that comparison, where are the long lenses?


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 14, 2013)

JohnnyT said:


> Dylan777 writes: Have you ever shoot with RX1?
> No, and it is not an interchangeable lens camera, whats your point?
> 
> Quote
> ...



My point is.... there is [size=24pt]35mm sensor  built in[/size] tiny chassis.


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 15, 2013)

Let's talk honestly. To be small, you need a lens also small. This leads us to two options: ??? Lenses truly small (and very limited) like 40mm pancake, or F4-5.6 zoom... :-[ I'm not excited about either option. I imagine that the scarce supply of compatible lenses is a problem that will not be solved in less than two years. Yet it seems that Sony NEX has the best balance between size and image quality.


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 15, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The problem with Sony has been poor customer support to a extreme. A 2-3 month turnaround for repairs is not something I'd ever buy into. Then, they have also dropped support entirely for items that didn't sell well, even entire product lines. This hasn't happened yet with mirrorless cameras, but I don't recall seeing any new ff lenses since they dropped ff DSLR bodies. Owners are possibly never going to see upgrades. I guess buying a throw away P&S camera is fine, but spending large amounts on a system that they will drop at the tip of the hat does not appeal to me.


+1000000000000000 

As a past user of the Olympus 4/3 cameras (4/3, not micro 4/3), I have been stung by having bought into a dead-end system..... With no warning the system ended.... no more new bodies, no more lenses, nothing said by Olympus.... just silence... This is why I would only consider Canon or Nikon as a system now... and I went with Canon because of the glass...


----------



## Promature (Oct 15, 2013)

What interests me more is the RX10.
"RX10:
- 1 inch sensor camera
- fixed 24-200mm f/2.8 constant aperture lens
- $1298"


----------



## tnargs (Oct 15, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> As a past user of the Olympus 4/3 cameras (4/3, not micro 4/3), I have been stung by having bought into a dead-end system..... With no warning the system ended.... no more new bodies, no more lenses, nothing said by Olympus.... just silence... This is why I would only consider Canon or Nikon as a system now... and I went with Canon because of the glass...



Don't count your chickens. I was a heavy Canon FD user the day they walked away and stranded me, with not so much as an adapter. Olympus treated you better than that.


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 15, 2013)

tnargs said:


> As a past user of the Olympus 4/3 cameras (4/3, not micro 4/3), I have been stung by having bought into a dead-end system..... With no warning the system ended.... no more new bodies, no more lenses, nothing said by Olympus.... just silence... This is why I would only consider Canon or Nikon as a system now... and I went with Canon because of the glass...



Don't count your chickens. I was a heavy Canon FD user the day they walked away and stranded me, with not so much as an adapter. Olympus treated you better than that.
[/quote]

The FD mount dates back to before camera electronics and had no way to accommodate autofocus. In 1987 they introduced the Electro-Focus mount (EF) and incorporated into it the electrical signals and power feeds required in the "digital age" of photography. At this point in time they p****d off a lot of users, but unfortunately for them, the world was changing from manual lenses to electronic lenses... the market for manual lenses was dropping like a stone and the electronic lens market was the future.

To continue on, the decision was made to design the new lens system (EF) rather than trying to modify the old system (FD), with a view on long term needs. Since the flange distances were similar, this meant that the only possible adaptors would involve optical elements.... A few very expensive lenses were shipped back to Canon to be modified for the new mount, but for most lenses the cost of modifications would have been worth more than the lens, so most lenses became orphans.

As well, part of the transition from one mount to the other seems to have involved upgrading the optical qualities of the lenses.... For instance, I have an FD mount 800F5.6 lens at work and I am positive that my 70-200 zoom lens plus tele-converter out-resolves it....

The next "revolution" to be expected in Canon-land is mirrorless.... when that happens, flange distances will decrease further and we can expect the EF mount to slowly die out as less and less cameras are made to use the mount. There will probably be a FF version of the EF-M mount that emerges at that time.... and similar to with the EF-M mount, there will probably be an EF to EF-FFmirrorless mount adaptor. I would expect the same thing to happen in Nikon-land as well.... but the ease of making a mechanical adaptor for either system will save all the old lenses this time.


----------



## tnargs (Oct 15, 2013)

It would be interesting to know, of those here who are saying they would buy the new Sony....

[1] Would it be a supplementary camera, or your main camera?

[2] If it would be your main camera, what system would you be moving from? FF DSLR? APS_C DSLR? Smaller mirrorless?


----------



## Pi (Oct 15, 2013)

JohnnyT said:


> My thought is, I have one full frame body, and multiple wonderfull L lenses whose mass equal 2 or 3 time that of my fullframe body.
> I'd love to carry them all, but oh my aching back!
> For a travel kit I'd like lighter lesses of equal quality to my L glass, as well as the lighter body.
> Also smaller lenses typically cost less, less glass, less metal, hence less mass.



They can be smaller only when wide (no retrofocal), and their wide lenses are really smaller. At longer FL's and same fast apertures, the only ting you might be missing is the AF, which is hardly a plus. 

Still, that looks like a very interesting camera.


----------



## CharlieB (Oct 15, 2013)

Jeeze ...

Anyone who says FF lenses are big... has not been around the rangefinder lenses. You can get TINY 21mm, 24mm, 28mm.... even 35 and 50mm lenses. Once you get to about 75mm... they grow a little, but are still tiny compared to SLR lenses. The 90mm Summicron ApoAsph (arguably one of the sharpest lenses ever produced) is about the same size (more or less) as the SLR counterpart 85/1.8. It weights a bunch more though, and is priced about... ten times more (more or less).

I was sitting at work today, lamenting the vastness of my Leica M bodies and lenses (snobbery), but... I just cannot justify an M9. If there is a good FF body that I can use... and it can be fit with Leica M lenses via flange adapter, I'd get it. If not... I can see the lenses and bodies going to a dealer in NY, in trade for something expensive in Canon land.


----------



## 9VIII (Oct 15, 2013)

JohnnyT said:


> New here, been lurking.
> So I guess I just dont get the full frame mirrorless excitment!
> My thought is small mirrorless body, APS-C sensor, small light weight lenses, decent lens speed.
> *Full Frame sensor means fast lenses are BIG lenses*! Not really conducive for light weight travel kits.
> Enjoying my full frame 6D and multiple L lenses, but they are heavy!



Actually it ends up with the crop sensor being worse pretty much everywhere. If you put a 50f1.4 on crop, it's still going to collect light a little worse than an 85f2 on full frame, and they end up almost the same size. Then consider that the 85mm lens at f2 is going to be way sharper, and then consider that the full frame sensor inherently collects more detail. Crop sensors are generally just a lose lose situation, except if you can't afford full frame.
The advantage of crop sensors is they're cheap, the same sort of advantages that work in favor of full frame for light gathering actually work against it in manufacturing.


----------



## EchoLocation (Oct 15, 2013)

Dylan, I knew you'd be excited about this thing! 
I have been waiting for this camera for years!!!(probably since the M9 was first announced.)
Unless something crazy happens to dissuade me, i'm almost definitely going to preorder whichever one has better AF. I'm thinking the A7 is better for me as the PDAF should(my thinking, am i right?) be better than the A7r. I'm also more inclined to 24mp instead of 36, and with the A9 probably coming next year, i'm happy to buy the cheaper one now, and then get the true top of the line in a year or so.
I'm thinking of buying the Sony Zeiss 24mm F2 lens. I'm having a hard time figuring out which lenses will have AF functionality. 
Dylan and Gino, and others buying this camera, what lenses will you use? will you buy any of the new lenses to use with it?
I'm in China, but i'm in the process of selling my D700, and 24-70. I love love love this camera and lens, but it is just wayyyy to heavy! i'm very excited to have an EOS-M and the Sony A7!!!!
This is also a great return to my Minolta roots. i started out in my high school photography class using an old Minolta, and I am very excited to go back to something small and simple instead of these crazy monster DSLR's that everyone is so in to nowadays. I'm sick of having a heavy backpack and sore shoulders!


----------



## scott (Oct 15, 2013)

Please join us for a very special announcement.

is it ok to post this


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 15, 2013)

tnargs said:


> It would be interesting to know, of those here who are saying they would buy the new Sony....
> 
> [1] Would it be a supplementary camera, or your main camera?
> 
> [2] If it would be your main camera, what system would you be moving from? FF DSLR? APS_C DSLR? Smaller mirrorless?



For me, it will be everyday and landscape camera(assuming Sony will release some UWA soon)


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 15, 2013)

EchoLocation said:


> Dylan, I knew you'd be excited about this thing!
> I have been waiting for this camera for years!!!(probably since the M9 was first announced.)
> Unless something crazy happens to dissuade me, i'm almost definitely going to preorder whichever one has better AF. I'm thinking the A7 is better for me as the PDAF should(my thinking, am i right?) be better than the A7r. I'm also more inclined to 24mp instead of 36, and with the A9 probably coming next year, i'm happy to buy the cheaper one now, and then get the true top of the line in a year or so.
> I'm thinking of buying the Sony Zeiss 24mm F2 lens. I'm having a hard time figuring out which lenses will have AF functionality.
> ...



Will start with Sony 50mm f1.8. I'm not big fan of 3rd party, manual focus lenses.

I like to add these:
1. 14, 16 or 17mm for landscape
2. 85mm for portrait

If you look at my signature below, I might end up with just 5D III + 70-200 for shooting moving subject. Will see what Sony has to offer in lenses first.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 50L, 85L II, 135L, 24-70 II and 70-200 f2.8 IS II. With 2 kids, it just too big to carry around for me. We have annual pass to Disneyland(in Anaheim, CA), my wife and I usually take RX1 and/or Fuji x100s with us. Both of my 5D III and L lenses are stay home. I feel it a waste...

However, when my 5yrs plays soccer, swiming and ballet the 5D III + 70-200 and 135L is killer combo.


----------



## RLPhoto (Oct 15, 2013)

I won't be buying into another system. It's use would be limited to me if I can't use my 600rts or the stack of canon glass I already have. Too bad canon isn't as daring as it used to be.


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 15, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I won't be buying into another system. It's use would be limited to me if I can't use my 600rts or the stack of canon glass I already have. Too bad canon isn't as daring as it used to be.



I can't afford 600rts, therefore, I'm going FF + fast primes ;D

I started with 40D + 50 f1.4, 17-55 and 550EX flash. My taste has changed.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 15, 2013)

tnargs said:


> It would be interesting to know, of those here who are saying they would buy the new Sony....
> [1] Would it be a supplementary camera, or your main camera?
> [2] If it would be your main camera, what system would you be moving from? FF DSLR? APS_C DSLR? Smaller mirrorless?


1) a mirrorless FF-sensor system camera like the Sony A7/R will be my only camera (other than smartphone) 
2) Currently Canon 7D + all good EF-S lenses and a few good EF-lenses and a few speedlites. Will definitely have been my last DSLR system and my last APS-C camera. 
Like the new Sony A7/R (as per rumored specs), but don't like Sony at all. 

For my photography as amateur/enthusiast I need only one camera system at a time and I don't want to buy, own, store, insure, carry, learn and use more than one camera system in parallel. 

Looking for a small light photographically fully capable FF-sensored mirrorless camera and a small set of "AF-only" lenses. [no manual focus ring, no manual focus gear, no distance window, but weathersealed @ IP67]. 

Ideally a 24-70/85 f/4.0 IS for street/city/events/general purpose/walkaround, a 20mm/4.0 pancake mainly for landscape/city/architecture, a minimalist pancake 40mm/2.0 for street/people @normal angle, a 85/2.0 pancake for studio/portraits/concerts and a very compact and light tele lens for travel, say a 200mm/4.0 plus 1.4x teleconverter. Plus wireless ETTL flash trigger built into camera and 2 slave speedlites. Entire system for less than the price of a Leica M240 with 50/2.0. That's it.  

Since I am most familiar with Canon's UI and prefer it over any other I've touched so far, I am still hoping for Canon to put 5D Mk. IV innards sans mirrorbox and prism into a Sony A7/R-sized body. Plus above mentioned lenses. If such a package comes at reasonable price before my 7D dies or I get too sick and tired of waiting, I'm in. Otherwise I'll buy elsewhere whatever comes closest to my shopping list. 

If I had to buy tomorrow, it would be the A7R (preferred) or A7 ... depending on AF performance ... plus 24-70/4 plus EF-adapter.


----------



## Albi86 (Oct 15, 2013)

For me the real deal with these cameras is the possibility to mount M-lenses using the focus peaking in the EVF. God knows how much I would like to play with those Voigtländer 35/1.2 and 50/1.1 _with actual good results_. On top of that Sony has the perk of Zeiss primes and zooms with AF.

Interesting timing for such a release too: Canikon has no mirrorless system worth noticing, Fuji seems very deep into their APS-C system, and Panasonic/Olympus/etc are very much into their MFT systems.

Sony is indeed way ahead of the competition.


----------



## bchernicoff (Oct 15, 2013)

My Fuji X-E1 35mm 1.4 combo convinced me that these cameras can actually be phenomenally good in a small package.
I'm anxious to read reviews of the Sony and see how large the body and lenses are.


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 15, 2013)

bchernicoff said:


> My Fuji X-E1 35mm 1.4 combo convinced me that these cameras can actually be phenomenally good in a small package.
> I'm anxious to read reviews of the Sony and see how large the body and lenses are.



X-E2 + Fuji 14mm for landscape is one sexy combo. I love the retro looks of Fuji


----------



## bchernicoff (Oct 15, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> X-E2 + Fuji 14mm for landscape is one sexy combo. I love the retro looks of Fuji



I've got the 18-55mm and the 60mm macro too. My EF mount Samyang 14mm works great on the fuji with an adapter.


----------



## sdsr (Oct 15, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> As a past user of the Olympus 4/3 cameras (4/3, not micro 4/3), I have been stung by having bought into a dead-end system..... With no warning the system ended.... no more new bodies, no more lenses, nothing said by Olympus.... just silence... This is why I would only consider Canon or Nikon as a system now... and I went with Canon because of the glass...



Have you read any of the hoopla re the new Olympus OM-D E-M1? With an adapter (which is, via rebates, free if you buy it with the camera body) it provides full-functionality for Olympus 4/3 lenses, while the camera is better than any of Olympus's 4/3 bodies. It's evidently meant to be the continuation of that line of cameras as well as their best Micro 4/3. Looks appealing to me, at any rate.

But so do the new FF mirrorless Sonys. The appeal isn't so much the size (it might be a nice upgrade from the Micro 4/3 equipment I have, but it's so good that I'm not sure how important that is) but the fact that they're mirrorless, with all the advantages that come with that. New, small lenses would be nice, but I'm as interested in trying some of the highly regarded Minolta lenses, which might be a bit awkward to use on a tiny body. As for Canon, I would be happy enough if they made a 6D- or even 5DIII- size body so I could continue using the EF lenses I like; I don't need a new line of tiny toys, though I guess such things are more likely to sell. 

(And speaking of tiny toys, Panasonic is about to launch a tiny M43 camera with a 24-60mm equiv. zoom lens that looks no more than 1/4 inch thick when attached to the camera and not in use. Toss in the new sensor technology that Fuji and Panasonic are supposedly working on - which may render FF obsolete - and it all becomes simultaneously confusing, interesting and enticing....)


----------



## Woody (Oct 16, 2013)

sdsr said:


> But so do the new FF mirrorless Sonys. The appeal isn't so much the size (it might be a nice upgrade from the Micro 4/3 equipment I have, but it's so good that I'm not sure how important that is) but the fact that they're mirrorless, with all the advantages that come with that. New, small lenses would be nice, but I'm as interested in trying some of the highly regarded Minolta lenses, which might be a bit awkward to use on a tiny body...
> 
> Toss in the new sensor technology that Fuji and Panasonic are supposedly working on - which may render FF obsolete - and it all becomes simultaneously confusing, interesting and enticing....)



Since Sony is rumored to release the following lenses: 35 f/2.8, 55 f/1.8 and 24-70 f/4 (all without stabilization), I am curious how their weights will compare against Canon's equivalent offerings, 35 f/2 IS, 50 f/1.4 and 24-70 f/4 IS. If they are similar to Canon's offerings, then I really do NOT see any advantage to Sony's concept.

Having used the EM5 for a year, I find that I intensely dislike mirrorless cameras for 2 reasons: (i) EVF (color and brightness never the same as OVF, no matter how fast and high resolving they are) (ii) poor handling, difficult to grip. Since Canon has demonstrated what they can achieve with weight reduction in the 100D, I am hopeful they can produce low weight DSLRs bodies in future.

FF can never be made obsolete, just like medium format never really goes away. Larger sensors will always have shallower depth of field and better resolution.

I am not a die-hard DSLR fan. I am willing to try out mirrorless stuff too, but at the moment, they simply cannot match my DSLR experience. I plan to use my 6D and 70D until 2020. Hopefully, some breathtaking technological breakthroughs happen by then.


----------



## verysimplejason (Oct 16, 2013)

Woody said:


> sdsr said:
> 
> 
> > But so do the new FF mirrorless Sonys. The appeal isn't so much the size (it might be a nice upgrade from the Micro 4/3 equipment I have, but it's so good that I'm not sure how important that is) but the fact that they're mirrorless, with all the advantages that come with that. New, small lenses would be nice, but I'm as interested in trying some of the highly regarded Minolta lenses, which might be a bit awkward to use on a tiny body...
> ...



I think IS for Sony isn't in the lens. It's in the body. One major advantage for mirrorless is the fact that there's no mirror and the form factor is smaller than a DSLR. I just hope Sony can make the EVF better or near the performance of an OVF as much as possible. I've tried A77 and same as you are, I don't like its EVF nor OMD's EVF.


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 16, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> WOW....This is the moment I been waiting for : : :
> 
> http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/
> 
> ...



A7 & A7 R Spec: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/a7-and-a7r-specs/

A7 seems to fit my needs - Faster AF, with 117 points (phase-detection AF),


----------



## Woody (Oct 16, 2013)

verysimplejason said:


> I think IS for Sony isn't in the lens. It's in the body. One major advantage for mirrorless is the fact that there's no mirror and the form factor is smaller than a DSLR.



If the rumored specs are correct, Sony A7/A7r do not have in-body image stabilisation. A pity. 

It's fairly clear the small body form factor isn't too popular, otherwise Sony would not have released the A3000 (mirrorless body that accepts NEX/E-mount lenses but with a DSLR camera form factor). ;D As Thom Hogan says, Sony is going all over the place without any clear direction, as they desperately try to grab more market shares.


----------



## Woody (Oct 16, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> A7 & A7 R Spec: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/a7-and-a7r-specs/
> 
> A7 seems to fit my needs - Faster AF, with 117 points (phase-detection AF),



I hope their PDAF in mirrorless body works well. On the Nikon V1/J1, they are next to useless when light levels fall (see DPReview write-up on V1/J1 PDAF).


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 16, 2013)

Woody said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > A7 & A7 R Spec: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/a7-and-a7r-specs/
> ...



I'll tell you after I play with it


----------



## zlatko (Oct 16, 2013)

Woody said:


> sdsr said:
> 
> 
> > But so do the new FF mirrorless Sonys. The appeal isn't so much the size (it might be a nice upgrade from the Micro 4/3 equipment I have, but it's so good that I'm not sure how important that is) but the fact that they're mirrorless, with all the advantages that come with that. New, small lenses would be nice, but I'm as interested in trying some of the highly regarded Minolta lenses, which might be a bit awkward to use on a tiny body...
> ...



Those rumored Sony lenses are not very exciting. Not even a 35/2. However, the A7/A7r may be very exciting for photographers who want to use Leica/Zeiss/Voigtlander lenses on a full frame digital without spending $7k for a Leica M.

Canon has done a great job of shrinking the DSLR. The 5D3 offers much of the power of the 1DsIII, which was much bigger. The full-frame 6D is just barely bigger than an APS-C camera like the 7D. And the 100D/SL1 takes the APS-C camera down to a brilliant new level of smallness.


----------



## Canon 14-24 (Oct 16, 2013)

Would have jumped shipped if if they had a better lens line up with more pancakes, fast primes, "fast" 2.8 zooms, or a 14-24!

They got the price point down for the A7 and A7r, but charging extra to buy a charger (camera usb charging?!) and a 35 f/2.8 and 55 f/1.8 being sold for almost $1k over cheap pancake alternatives doesn't make much sense.


----------



## EchoLocation (Oct 16, 2013)

just pre ordered the a7 and the crappy kit lens. I'll probably get some cheap vintage MF fast glass to play with it until I figure out the exact lenses I want.
I'm very excited about this bad boy!


----------



## Woody (Oct 16, 2013)

Woody said:


> Since Sony is rumored to release the following lenses: 35 f/2.8, 55 f/1.8 and 24-70 f/4 (all without stabilization), I am curious how their weights will compare against Canon's equivalent offerings, 35 f/2 IS, 50 f/1.4 and 24-70 f/4 IS. If they are similar to Canon's offerings, then I really do NOT see any advantage to Sony's concept.



Looks like the above Sony lenses (24-70 f/4 with OSS) are pretty lightweight. But their telephoto stuff like 70-200 f/4 OSS and 70-200 f/2.8 are slightly heavier than Canon's equivalent. Hmmm...


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Oct 16, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The problem with Sony has been poor customer support to a extreme. A 2-3 month turnaround for repairs is not something I'd ever buy into. Then, they have also dropped support entirely for items that didn't sell well, even entire product lines. This hasn't happened yet with mirrorless cameras, but I don't recall seeing any new ff lenses since they dropped ff DSLR bodies. Owners are possibly never going to see upgrades. I guess buying a throw away P&S camera is fine, but spending large amounts on a system that they will drop at the tip of the hat does not appeal to me.


+1 ... about 10 years ago I had bought a Sony Plasma TV and when it stopped working I was told by Sony service center that they no longer provide any support for it ... since then I've stayed away form Sony (except for my kids PS3) ... that being said, I am tempted by these new Sony mirrorless cameras provided they come up with some good small sized prime lenses (preferably pancake), otherwise it makes no sense for me to buy it coz I don't think I would ever buy a zoom lens for a mirrorless camrea, kinda defeats the small form factor.


----------



## Fleetie (Oct 16, 2013)

So, what are the retail prices for these two?


----------



## J.R. (Oct 16, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with Sony has been poor customer support to a extreme. A 2-3 month turnaround for repairs is not something I'd ever buy into. Then, they have also dropped support entirely for items that didn't sell well, even entire product lines. This hasn't happened yet with mirrorless cameras, but I don't recall seeing any new ff lenses since they dropped ff DSLR bodies. Owners are possibly never going to see upgrades. I guess buying a throw away P&S camera is fine, but spending large amounts on a system that they will drop at the tip of the hat does not appeal to me.
> ...



My experience was quite the opposite. Sony Alpha 100 was my first DSLR back in 2007. It came with a 3 year warranty. As luck would have it, the camera went kaput in the fall of 2009. When I put it in for a warrant claim they told me that the Alpha 100 had been discontinued and gave me a new Sony Alpha 300 (essentially an upgrade) instead. 

Sony has become smarter though, most of their products now come with a 1 year (non-extendible) warranty (at least in my country) so you need to commend your soul to god buying anything from them.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Oct 16, 2013)

Fleetie said:


> So, what are the retail prices for these two?


As per the email I received from B&H today:
a7 Body: $1698
a7 w/28-70 lens: $1998
a7R Body: $2298
24-70 f/4 ZA lens: $1198
35mm f/2.8 ZA lens: $798
55mm f/1.8 ZA lens: $1998


----------



## Pi (Oct 16, 2013)

According to DPR:


The new Carl Zeiss Vario-Tessar T* 24-70mm F4 zoom lens will be available in January for about $1200. 
The new Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 prime lens will be available in December for about $800.
The new Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* 55mm F1.8 prime lens will be available in January for about $1000.
The new Sony 28-70mm F3.5 – 5.6 OSS zoom lens will will be offered as the kit lens paired with the new Sony A7 Full-Frame E-mount camera for about $2000.
Pricing and availability for the new G Lens 70-200mm F4 OSS Telephoto zoom is still TBD. 
The new G Lens 70-200mm F2.8 G SSM II Telephoto Zoom Lens for A-mount cameras will be available in January for about $3000.
The versatile LA-EA4 and LA-EA3 mount adapters will be available in December for about $350 and $200 respectively.

Still expensive.


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 16, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> WOW....This is the moment I been waiting for : : :
> 
> http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/
> 
> ...



After reading the specs, my final answer is A7 + 50mm f1.8. I ordered it last night, 20mins after the announcement. I'm not sure where I'm standing in the pre-order line.


----------



## Fleetie (Oct 16, 2013)

Thanks, guys (for the retail prices).


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Oct 16, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > WOW....This is the moment I been waiting for : : :
> ...


Congratulations! ... once you get this very interesting Sony camera/lens, I look forward to your feedback.


----------



## RLPhoto (Oct 16, 2013)

I saw the camera stores video on the a7. It was very interesting about using the met abodes adapter for all my EF glass but when he mentioned the sync speed of 1/160th.... it was a deal breaker.


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 16, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I saw the camera stores video on the a7. It was very interesting about using the met abodes adapter for all my EF glass but when he mentioned the sync speed of 1/160th.... it was a deal breaker.



Putting an adapter + L lens on A7 would kill the primary purpose of mirrorless. I will never understand that approach - same thing for EOS-M with L lenses. I rather shoot with my 5D III + L lenses if that is the case. 

Sorry, that just me RLPhoto  I don't want to open another debate... ;D


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 16, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



Will do Rienzphotoz

I'm still having too much fun with Fuji X100s...


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 16, 2013)

EchoLocation said:


> just pre ordered the a7 and the crappy kit lens. I'll probably get some cheap vintage MF fast glass to play with it until I figure out the exact lenses I want.
> I'm very excited about this bad boy!



Congrats EchoLocation 

I have A7 + Zeiss 50mm f1.8 on pre-order. Hope Sony/Zeiss will release some UWA primes soon.


----------



## RLPhoto (Oct 16, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I saw the camera stores video on the a7. It was very interesting about using the met abodes adapter for all my EF glass but when he mentioned the sync speed of 1/160th.... it was a deal breaker.
> ...



Primes are small and I have them, why not?


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 16, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > RLPhoto said:
> ...



I don't own all Canon L lenses, but I do own some: 50L, 85L II and 135L these are not "Primes are small" on A7. Unless you talking about 3rd party prime lenses.


----------



## RLPhoto (Oct 16, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



There not as small as my vintage Zuiko primes but they are small to me.


----------



## sdsr (Oct 16, 2013)

Woody said:


> Having used the EM5 for a year, I find that I intensely dislike mirrorless cameras for 2 reasons: (i) EVF (color and brightness never the same as OVF, no matter how fast and high resolving they are) (ii) poor handling, difficult to grip. Since Canon has demonstrated what they can achieve with weight reduction in the 100D, I am hopeful they can produce low weight DSLRs bodies in future.



Have you seen the EVF of the new EM1 (same as the new Olympus EVF you can buy separately)? Apparently it's the same as the EVF in the Sony (a result of their new collaboration, presumably; I hope Olympus's IBIS is in these new Sonys too). It's rather different from the EM5's - bigger (still 100% coverage), greater magnification (second only to the Canon 1Dx, apparently), more accurate colors, brighter. Still not quite OVF, but getting closer, plus it still has all the advantages that EVFs have over OVFs in terms of letting you see exactly what you're doing as you adjust controls. You might be pleasantly surprised (or not, of course...).


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Oct 17, 2013)

Sony A7 Series Full-Frame Mirrorless Cameras are here!


----------



## Apop (Oct 17, 2013)

looking forward to reviews from canon users using a adapter!

To me it looks pretty tempting, a small light package with a high res filterless sensor, imagine using a 70-200 2.8 or 300 2.8 , but then back to a relatively small sony 35 2.8 when you want.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Oct 17, 2013)

Apop said:


> looking forward to reviews from canon users using a adapter!
> 
> To me it looks pretty tempting, a small light package with a high res filterless sensor, imagine using a 70-200 2.8 or 300 2.8 , but then back to a relatively small sony 35 2.8 when you want.


+1 ... it is very tempting indeed ... I'll wait till other CR members (like Dylan) get it and give us some feed back ... but the only question mark for me is the relatively large lens sizes (compared to the small form factor of the a7 bodies). I still wonder what prevents Canon/Nikon from coming out with a competent FF mirrorless camera. I think even if Sigma were to bring in a competent full frame mirrorless camera, they'd have a great chance of being a success (especially with their excellent pricing strategy and ample amount of lenses) and even if they fail, Sigma won't have too much to lose, (unlike the big boys e.g. Sony).


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 18, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> and even if they fail, Sigma won't have too much to lose, (unlike the big boys e.g. Sony).



Sony's got nothing to loose either. That's why they did bring the A7/R ... at unbelievably low prices. Imaging, how much CaNikon would charge for those babies? I bet it`d be north of 4000 USD/€ for a 36 MP sensor MILC and "only" 3500 for the 24 MP version.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Oct 18, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > and even if they fail, Sigma won't have too much to lose, (unlike the big boys e.g. Sony).
> ...


I think Sony has a lot to lose *if* this product line does not get the kinda sales results they are looking for ... with Sony's reputation for dropping products mid way without any support for the customers who bought them, it won't augment well for them ... especially with their ongoing loses in their consumer electronic business. Whereas for Sigma I don't think anyone even cares if they don't sell well ... just like their flop show SD15 & SD1 Merrill DSLR cameras.


----------



## wickidwombat (Oct 19, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I saw the camera stores video on the a7. It was very interesting about using the met abodes adapter for all my EF glass but when he mentioned the sync speed of 1/160th.... it was a deal breaker.
> ...



for me its having a second body with me that takes up very little space to travel with
for example i might have my 5d3 with 16-35 on a tripod and shooting with the eos m and its 22mm or even the sigma 85 and adapter i can have a second body to take other shots and i can still use what ever other glass i have with the adapter

for me this sony with the 55mm looks really good maybe i would have the 16-35 on it more of the time and keep the 85 or 135 on the 5d3

I'm really looking forward to seeing reviews of this and the 55mm although i am holdin some hope zeiss make a AF version of the 55 1.4 for the sony i think it would be an amazing combo


----------



## tnargs (Oct 21, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> tnargs said:
> 
> 
> > It would be interesting to know, of those here who are saying they would buy the new Sony....
> ...


That is almost exactly my kit too. 


> For my photography as amateur/enthusiast I need only one camera system at a time and I don't want to buy, own, store, insure, carry, learn and use more than one camera system in parallel.


ditto - we have some things in common, it seems!


> Looking for a small light photographically fully capable FF-sensored mirrorless camera and a small set of "AF-only" lenses. [no manual focus ring, no manual focus gear, no distance window, but weathersealed @ IP67].


It certainly is a nice ideal, one I have thought a lot about.


> Ideally a 24-70/85 f/4.0 IS for street/city/events/general purpose/walkaround, a 20mm/4.0 pancake mainly for landscape/city/architecture, a minimalist pancake 40mm/2.0 for street/people @normal angle, a 85/2.0 pancake for studio/portraits/concerts and a very compact and light tele lens for travel, say a 200mm/4.0 plus 1.4x teleconverter. Plus wireless ETTL flash trigger built into camera and 2 slave speedlites. Entire system for less than the price of a Leica M240 with 50/2.0. That's it.


 ;-) indeed! But AFAIK pancakes are inherently lesser optically than a 'standard sized' prime, so I have gone off the pancake idea for now. Why get the big sensor and then add a lens that has more blur units? The Zeiss 35f2.8 that came out with the A7 weighs about 120g, nice.


> If I had to buy tomorrow, it would be the A7R (preferred) or A7 ... depending on AF performance ... plus 24-70/4 plus EF-adapter.


For me, right now, I'm starting to think the m43 or APS mirrorless is the right answer. I'm starting to think that, for any given budget, the better lens kit I could buy with a smaller sensor outweighs any theoretical advantage in IQ -- which will largely evaporate without a tripod anyway. And I'm not at all sure *just how much* weight and bag space are saved by going to FF mirrorless, once you include all the lenses for a decent system. Maybe it is a disappointing end game if the real goal was * large* savings in space and weight.


----------

