# Canon to Surprise With New Mirrorless Camera



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 23, 2016)

```
We weren’t told much, but we were told that Canon will “surprise a lot of people” with one of their next mirrorless cameras. We weren’t told if it was an APS-C or full frame mirrorless camera, but I don’t think there’s much that would surprise people if it was a crop camera.</p>
<p>The same source said there has been internal talk at Canon about no longer playing catch-up in emerging segments, this including cinema and mirrorless. It may sound arrogant, but there’s those that feel if Canon gets fully behind mirrorless, they’re the one brand that could help the segment finally reach the masses.</p>
<p>There have been rumors that the EOS M line could get an announcement for CP+ next month, alongside the EOS-1D X Mark II.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 23, 2016)

Timing of this rumor coincides with the revival of The X-Files. Coincidence?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Timing of this rumor coincides with the revival of The X-Files. Coincidence?



;D


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## bholliman (Jan 23, 2016)

Hope its true. I'd like to see what Canon could come up with for a high-end M.


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## Click (Jan 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Timing of this rumor coincides with the revival of The X-Files. Coincidence?



Ha Ha Ha ;D


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## brad-man (Jan 23, 2016)

I want to believe...


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## HighLowISO (Jan 23, 2016)

Unless it has a nice view finder it won't be able to see the truth.


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## nhz (Jan 23, 2016)

brad-man said:


> I want to believe...



sure, wake me up when Canon finally starts moving. 

After so many years of glacial pace in improving their DSLRs they might scare their existing customers if they really bring something revolutionary to market ;-(


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## jebrady03 (Jan 23, 2016)

I'd be surprised if it were something I actually wanted to order. I'd be surprised if it didn't lag in almost every conceivable way vs the competition. Hell... I'd be surprised if they made a FF mirrorless camera with more than 2 lenses available at launch.

To surprise me, they'd need to do more than CATCH UP to the competition. They need to outperform the competition, to actually surprise me. I EXPECT them to want to catch up. Surprise is a whole other level of technology and dedication.


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## Haydn1971 (Jan 23, 2016)

Call me daft if you like... EOS-X full frame mirrorless, set of fast primes, a wide, standard and tele zoom - happy days !

Forgive me, drinking vino, with "Depeche Mode" radio via Spotify, Sonos and my Musical Fidelity amp... Turned to volume 3 as I my ears bleed any higher... Happy days


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## PhotographyFirst (Jan 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Timing of this rumor coincides with the revival of The X-Files. Coincidence?


LoL 

I personally think there is going to be a mirrorless SL2 camera coming out. No need for that thing to have an OVF considering the market it is designed for.


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## zim (Jan 23, 2016)

Scaled up G5X to aps-c with Interchangeable lens mount anyone.... basically an SL1 replacement with EVF


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## zim (Jan 23, 2016)

Haydn1971 said:


> Call me daft if you like... EOS-X full frame mirrorless, set of fast primes, a wide, standard and tele zoom - happy days !
> 
> Forgive me, drinking vino, with "Depeche Mode" radio via Spotify, Sonos and my Musical Fidelity amp... Turned to volume 3 as I my ears bleed any higher... Happy days



Nah your not daft...... yer bleedin mental I mean Depeche Mode really!!! ;D ;D ;D


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## Haydn1971 (Jan 23, 2016)

zim said:


> Nah your not daft...... yer bleedin mental I mean Depeche Mode really!!! ;D ;D ;D



Confused look ;-)


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## Nininini (Jan 23, 2016)

Have my doubts, Canon just launched the EOS M3. Camera development costs a lot of money, they wouldn't launch another APS-C mirrorless so short after this one.


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## tcmatthews (Jan 23, 2016)

I hope it is true and it is full frame. Then I could consider selling the A7II in a few years. And not buying anymore lenses for the Sony. But I think at this point it would have to be one heck of a camera before I would actual pull the trigger. I already have one foot out the door. 

Regardless Olympus Pen-F and the something big after, Sony A6100, Fujifilm X-Pro2, and a surprise from Canon. 
It is a good year to be a photography enthusiast. 

The question is will it be a A600 competitor, a A7rII competitor or something completely different. Is the Canon 5D III replacement mirrorless? If it is I can only imagine the screams.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 23, 2016)

A substitute for SL1 without mirror, with EF-S mount, Dual Pixel AF, and a good electronic viewfinder, it would be a bestseller.


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## Nininini (Jan 23, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> A substitute for SL1 without mirror, with EF-S mount,



That would just cannibalize the very recent M3 and EF-M lenses. They're not going to shoot themselves in the foot.

This story doesn't make a lot of sense, Canon doesn't usually release cameras in similar categories one after the other. If you look at their releases, they tend to be tick tock between full frame and APS-C, and in different categories.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 23, 2016)

Nininini said:


> Have my doubts, Canon just launched the EOS M3. Camera development costs a lot of money, they wouldn't launch another APS-C mirrorless so short after this one.



they've been releasing an M about once a year.

so umm no, your comment is the only doubtful one.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 23, 2016)

Nininini said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > A substitute for SL1 without mirror, with EF-S mount,
> ...


I consider SL1 as an experimental camera, and would be the perfect format to Canon make a "serious" mirrorless.

EOS-M will always be for people who want a pocket camera (deep pockets). I could be wrong, but I think battery life and heat dissipation are still problems, and prevent one high end camera the size of other EOS-M.


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## tcmatthews (Jan 23, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> A substitute for SL1 without mirror, with EF-S mount, Dual Pixel AF, and a good electronic viewfinder, it would be a bestseller.



Ok sure do the A3000 the right way. It could be a good seller but the A3000 when over worst than the EOS-M. But I think it would have a EOS-M mount. 

Personally I would like to see the 6D sensor shoved into the body of the Rebel T6s and sold as a full frame Rebel for $1000. Mirrorless or otherwize.


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## Nininini (Jan 23, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> they've been releasing an M about once a year.
> 
> so umm no, your comment is the only doubtful one.



No they haven't. There are exactly 17 months between releases.

M, June 2012--|17 months|----M2, December 2013----|17 months|----M3, April 2015

That would mean the M4 would need to launch on September 2016. CP+ in February is way too early.


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## KeithBreazeal (Jan 23, 2016)

Full frame EVF with a 1D X II sensor or go home.


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## Etienne (Jan 23, 2016)

Beat the Sony A7 series and make me a believer!


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## Jacen (Jan 23, 2016)

It probably won't beat the A7 series. But that's not what I'm after. I'm after a camera that's smaller than my 5D, and is natively compatible with EF lenses with a good autofocus system and around 25+ Mpix. SL2 or Prosumer M doesn't really matter.


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## Dylan777 (Jan 23, 2016)

Can't wait to see what Canon will bring. 

My guess: crop body that work with current ef lenses without adapter.


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## danski0224 (Jan 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Timing of this rumor coincides with the revival of The X-Files. Coincidence?



TrustNo1


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## CrispyPics (Jan 23, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> A substitute for SL1 without mirror, with EF-S mount, Dual Pixel AF, and a good electronic viewfinder, it would be a bestseller.



Why not full frame in a SL1-type body with weather sealing? That way it could coexist to APS-C EOS-M and with a small mount adaption would accept both EF and EF-S lenses. Would be a perfect upgrade path for me as an APS-C user.


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## MayaTlab (Jan 23, 2016)

Coming up with a FF EOS-M camera won't excite me one bit in itself. If it's packaged like a fisher price toy and riddled with Canon's usual "we know best" attitude and obsessive penchant for irrational product differentiation ("what, a joystick, are you maaaaaad ? We won't sell any 7DII if it's got one ! Remove this devilish thing ASAP or you're fired !"), I'm not interested. If it's yet another re-hash of the usual limitative PASM + two programmable dials or the even worse reactionary retrograde retrobsessive nostalgia for labelled dials, I'll be bored, but I might still bite.

Ideally I'd want something that's ambitious : a camera that finally gets us rid of the imaginary roll of film that camera manufacturers still insist to put in our cameras (why do I have to rotate a mirrorless camera to take pictures in the vertical orientation ? Why metering algorithms are still inherited from the film age ? Why no auto ETTR ? Why no raw histogram ? Why only two programmable dials on a DIGITAL camera ? Why still a PASM dial ? Why still a strong dichotomy between manually set values and automatisms ? Why do I have to turn on and off my camera several times a day ? Why no operating system with regular through the air updates ? Is it still impossible to have a low consumption top LCD with colour information and more user-friendly graphics in 2016 ? Etc.).
That, to me, would be a real surprise.

I recently played with a Phase One XF and if there are already plenty of things I disliked with it, and probably a lot of other reasons to dislike it, in many ways it felt fresh and very interesting.


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## Jopa (Jan 23, 2016)

That's great news, as long as I won't need to buy new lenses...


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## oncosurgdoc (Jan 23, 2016)

I typically use my camera for ultra-long distance backpacking, where every oz. counts. Point and shoot cameras are popular in that world, but the images are never the best quality. The Canon M3 has been the best compromise for me, offering control, superb imagery, detachable lenses, and, most importantly, light weight. Though few people ever talk about it in this forum, weight, even to a ½ oz., is extremely critical. Because the camera gets tossed around a lot, and it is impossible to really keep it clean when on the trail for months at a time, operational durability in such harsh environments becomes critical. I wait anxiously for the next M series camera with this in mind.


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## Bennymiata (Jan 23, 2016)

Could the surprise be another lame mirrorless camera?


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## AvTvM (Jan 23, 2016)

I'd be happy with a fully competitive Canon enthusiast MILC ... be it APS-C or FF 

A) Canon EOS-X1 
FF MILC, at least slightly better *in all respects* than Sony A7R II, not bigger and not more expensive + some decent and affordable EF-X native lenses plus existing EF-glass fully operational with adapter. 
I'll buy one and sell my 5D 3 mirrorslapper. 

B) EOS "M1 Pro"
APS-C MILC slightly better than upcoming Sony A6100, not bigger and not more expensive ... and I'll buy one and sell my EOS M body, but keep my 5D 3 mirrorslapper for the time being. 

Take your pick, Canon!


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## drjlo (Jan 23, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> A) Canon EOS-X1
> FF MILC, at least slightly better *in all respects* than Sony A7R II, not bigger and not more expensive



Boy, that's truly looking at "glass half full," but it it happens, I'd be happy to stay in the Canon camp while putting away my Sony A7r.


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## RGF (Jan 23, 2016)

Ideally the same sensor as the A7R II with menus and controls that make sense.

I would sell my A7R II instantly if this camera was announced.


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## padam (Jan 23, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOky2XA8UP0

I would't be surprised to see a Speed Booster Ultra for EF->EF-M mount with better AF than the EF->E-mount adapters


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## Nininini (Jan 23, 2016)

Mirrorless that works with EF-S without adapter, would just have the size of a DSLR, because of the extra flange distance needed.

If you want that, you can just glue the canon EF-M adaptor to your M3, and there you have it. Tadaa, M4.


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## hubie (Jan 23, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> Nininini said:
> 
> 
> > Have my doubts, Canon just launched the EOS M3. Camera development costs a lot of money, they wouldn't launch another APS-C mirrorless so short after this one.
> ...



Sorry, but just because you make one of your own products obsolete by introducing a new, much better one isn't shooting in the own foot. If the customer is looking for another product than you offer, you better replace it or give a better alternative (which may cost more). Opening the EF-lenses to mirrorless without adapter and better ergonomics would be ground-breaking for Canon I guess. Their big strength in my eyes is the huge disposition of A-class lenses over the whole focal range. They should build on that legacy.


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## AUGS (Jan 24, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Nininini said:
> 
> 
> > ajfotofilmagem said:
> ...



This was my original thought for the other threads on "What do you want in Mirrorless" and then the SL1 demise. If this were to be true, this wouldn't cannibalize any market of the M3, it would be preparing the market segmentation, no differently to having a X Series, XX Series, XXX and XXXX Series SLRs. The M3 would be entry level, SL1 version a step up.

I could easily see a new full frame mirrorless in an SL1 body.
Pros:
Native EF and EF-S lenses without an adapter - current common complaint on these threads about the M series is lack of native lenses.
Size will provide better "balance" for EF and EF-S lenses, while not being full SLR size.
Touchscreen, live view.
Could have Auto-crop mode depending on attached lens (selectable on 5DS Series for example), or do you have dedicated SL-C (crop) and SL-F (full frame)?
Smallest SLR just took a step to the future.

Cons:
Electronic viewfinders need improvement, the other common complaint - does this body need one?
Is this too soon or too big a step for the market? We know Canon is conservative, and incremental changes are best for ongoing revenue.
Is Canon ready to take that leap of faith?

This is all speculation and highly optimistic, but this will happen, how soon remains to be seen.


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 24, 2016)

RGF said:


> Ideally the same sensor as the A7R II with menus and controls that make sense.
> 
> I would sell my A7R II instantly if this camera was announced.



I'll take it off your hands. My A7R II could use a backup 

Out of curiosity, what part of the menus don't make sense? I only really need to access a handful of things in the menus with any regularity:
1) Format 
2) Display setting effect (I usually have it 'on' to show the exposure, unless I'm shooting with strobes in which case it's typically too dark)
3) Raw type (to toggle uncompressed when appropriate)
4&5) Airplane Mode and Send to Smartphone

With custom buttons and the custom menu, all shooting functions I use (and some I don't) are accessible outside of the menus. I still wish it had a dedicated tool to select focus points, but other than that I've learned the controls and don't find it lacking relative to my Canon's (and it's a hell of a lot better than my Nikon).


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## TeT (Jan 24, 2016)

Beauty of the existing M system is very good glass and very good IQ.

They just need to jazz up the speed (lag + AF speed) slap in the 5DIII or 6D or better sensor and maybe add more diverse customization options and its a winner. EVF Pop UP Tilt touch Bluetooth Wireless... 5d3-1/2 mirrorless? Doable?


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 24, 2016)

drjlo said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > A) Canon EOS-X1
> ...



AvTvM has a history of posting up unrealistic wish lists, but at least this time he refrained from requesting AF-only (i.e. manual focus not possible) lenses with an LCD in place of a mechanical aperture 

Meanwhile, I'd like a new car. It has to be as fast as a Bugatti Veyron, handle like an F1 car, seat 6 comfortably, look like a McLaren P1, use all electric power with in-body solar charging capable of generating a 500km range in an afternoon, and be no more expensive than a Scion. Until then, I'll hang on to my old piston-slapper.


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## ahsanford (Jan 24, 2016)

Yet another thread in wish we all hope Canon does the 3-4 things it needs to do to compete in mirrorless.

:


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## LukasS (Jan 24, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Interesting grouping. Hadn't considered it before but Cinema EOS is also mirrorless. But if they're not going to play catch-up, then what? Leap frog to the front? Looking at one of the other threads, again a big difference between (say) Arri & Canon is sensor performance at high ISO/low light. When is Canon going to fix that?



Well, they are working on 8K so this decision may push more resources to R&D in that segment.


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## Diltiazem (Jan 24, 2016)

There seems to be two main types of users of mirrorless.

One uses it as a primary camera.
The other as a second or third camera, mainly to travel light. 

So far, Canon's target has been the second group. If Canon wants to be serious about mirrorless it probably needs to target the first group with new robust and feature rich products and upgrade the existing line for the second group.

I think Canon now realizes that mirrorless is not a big threat to their existing DSLR line. More people actually prefer OVF and DSLR size than mirrorless and its smaller size.


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## eric_ykchan (Jan 24, 2016)

Surprise the market with a even more entry level white EOS-M


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## Don Haines (Jan 24, 2016)

OH! OH! OH!!!!!!

A mirrorless 1DX2!

That would certainly be a surprise


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## JoeDavid (Jan 24, 2016)

I really like the Fuji X series and, with the X-Pro2 coming in at 24MP, it may be when I finally add a mirrorless body and lens to my camera equipment. I'll wait for someone to get a full review out with information on the DR of the new Fuji sensor before I decide. That should give Canon to make this rumor happen if it is going to. I can't imagine it will actually be something I'll get excited about. The last few times Canon has promised great things in teaser ads, they have turned out to be duds in terms of what I'm looking for.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 24, 2016)

IMO the most we get is an EOS-M3x which is basically an EOS-M + G5X body.

anyone thinking / wanting more than that .. get prepared to cry.

it really don't make economical sense for canon to do it.

the real suprise would be that it actually works right - unlike the m3


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## overniven (Jan 24, 2016)

The odds seem pretty slim that Canon will make surprise anyone, especially since they've been so conservative rolling out the M line.

At this point, I'm quite tempted to pick up a Fujifilm

I did pick up an M3 that I bought (with EVF) for ~$400, and I do like it, but there is a lot of quirkiness in it that reminds me of early 2000's digital camera problems (lagginess, poor battery life), although it's not nearly as bad as others make it out to be. I for one, would like to see what Canon has on their road map for this class of camera (sub $2000), but I might not wait. It sure seems that they have too few engineers to handle all these different lines effectively. 

I'd love to see some more enthusiast native lenses from Canon. Perhaps a much better standard zoom, a couple more primes and/or a Macro lens of some substance. I don't need FF, but I'd love to see one available for those that do.


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## josephandrews222 (Jan 24, 2016)

oncosurgdoc said:


> I typically use my camera for ultra-long distance backpacking, where every oz. counts. Point and shoot cameras are popular in that world, but the images are never the best quality. The Canon M3 has been the best compromise for me, offering control, superb imagery, detachable lenses, and, most importantly, light weight. Though few people ever talk about it in this forum, weight, even to a ½ oz., is extremely critical. Because the camera gets tossed around a lot, and it is impossible to really keep it clean when on the trail for months at a time, operational durability in such harsh environments becomes critical. I wait anxiously for the next M series camera with this in mind.



Winner Winner Chicken Dinner (great second post, doc).

I own both the M1 and the M2; they weigh in at 298g and 274g, respectively.

The M3 weighs in at 366g (again including battery).

The combination of small size and light weight have done the trick with our family...plus my daughters LOVE taking photos and videos with their M's.

It is fascinating to read the variety of responses on this forum to Canon's mirrorless efforts.

To me, Canon's M platform has already supplied us with hundreds of photos that are generally superior to and at least the equal of anything a point-and-shoot could provide.

The 22mm and 11-22mm lenses are on mine 95% of the time; the kids stick with the 22mm.

I'm a broken record on the M's features here: I don't care about a viewfinder, but I do like an on-board flash (and my kids would, too...as they now understand that when you REALLY need a flash is when it is sunny outside and you're trying to take people pix!). The M3's flash almost persuaded me but I've decided to wait (for now).

But first-and-foremost: small size and light weight are paramount.


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## tchen4 (Jan 24, 2016)

My best guess is a new line of FF mirrorless with a fixed lens. The lens would be a 35L mk2 clone or wider. This new camera will compete with Sony RX1R2 directly. In the mean time, it won't compete with any of Canon's current products at all!


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## Rick (Jan 24, 2016)

If Canon wants to do high-end mirrorless, they need to do so without associating it with the EOS M line.


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## JPAZ (Jan 24, 2016)

Interesting. I have this thing called an EOS-M (first emulation) that takes pretty good photos. I got it during the $199 fire sale. But, the shutter lag drives me nuts, the lack of a reasonable VF makes handling it for steady shots hard and the battery life is not stellar. It spends a lot of time in a case in the closet. And, since there are now two newer versions (M2 and M3), I can't even sell it. 

So when I am interested in nice photos, I haul my 5Diii along. When a "P&S" is a better fit, I' can use my wife's RX100iii. Whatever Canon has planned would need to be pretty fabulous for me to even think about jumping on it.


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## tpatana (Jan 24, 2016)

So 1DX2 is mirrorless?


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## tpatana (Jan 24, 2016)

If they deliver:

High-Mpix kick-ass mirrorless that has no compromises, high DR, takes EF lenses native and $3k price tag.

Take my money.


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## infared (Jan 24, 2016)

JoeDavid said:


> I really like the Fuji X series and, with the X-Pro2 coming in at 24MP, it may be when I finally add a mirrorless body and lens to my camera equipment. I'll wait for someone to get a full review out with information on the DR of the new Fuji sensor before I decide. That should give Canon to make this rumor happen if it is going to. I can't imagine it will actually be something I'll get excited about. The last few times Canon has promised great things in teaser ads, they have turned out to be duds in terms of what I'm looking for.


Yeah...I REALLY love my Olympus cameras when I want to go light...It's a really complete small system and it just keeps getting better and better. They are such a pleasure to use that it makes photography really, really fun! There is a joy and fluidity there. It does not replace my 5DIII Kit, no doubt.., but it compliments it nicely. Fuji is a different take on mirrorless, and a good one as well from what I have read. I am not expecting any changes in my choices with whatever Canon brings to the mirrorless table... I have a huge commitment in my mirrorless kit...it won't be changing by one announcement from a company that has shown no real commitment to a great segment of photography. ...but I look forward to hearing what's up.


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## Rocky (Jan 24, 2016)

It is an idea that will not goes well most of the posters: Give me a EOS M( original) with FAST and ACCURATE AF with the same size and menu.


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 24, 2016)

tpatana said:


> If they deliver:
> 
> High-Mpix kick-ass mirrorless that has no compromises, high DR, takes EF lenses native and $3k price tag.
> 
> Take my money.



There's no such thing as a product without compromises. Eliminating the mirror necessarily compromises battery life and having large dedicated sensors for autofocus.


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## tpatana (Jan 24, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > If they deliver:
> ...



Depends. Keep the 1DX2 frame and make it mirrorless. You can easily have battery which is not compromise. AF is different, but for that I'm ok to give some. I was thinking kick-ass studio body so AF I can leave for other bodies.


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 24, 2016)

tpatana said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > tpatana said:
> ...



By eliminating the mirror, you must use the display while framing. Sure, one can mitigate it by putting larger batteries in (and I agree that's a good approach, as opposed to merely shrinking the camera), but it's still a compromise. 

That's the nature of design. Something's gotta give. The best product for a given market is likely the one which sucks the least at everything and isn't best at anything  

For DSLRs, I believe the 5D3 has held that crown for quite a while!


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## brunerww (Jan 24, 2016)

Interesting - I'm primarily a video guy who sold my Canon T2i and transitioned to Panasonic mirrorless 6 years ago, but I would come back for a 4K Canon EF-M camera with a built-in viewfinder, 1080/60p or higher, a headphone jack and unlimited continuous recording.

They also have to fix the LCD so that the selfie mode doesn't block the user from mounting a mic on the hot shoe. A T6i/70D swivel-type LCD would be nice.

A camera like that would absolutely kill the Panasonic G7 (and the Sony A6000). But while we wait, I'll be shooting 4K through my built-in viewfinder.


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## wyotex43n (Jan 24, 2016)

I dropped out of photography before the digital era. I decided to take it up again 2 years ago. Mirrorless has some attraction but I purchased a 70D. Right price for beginning and I really liked the idea of the DPAF sensor. I have been surprised this has not show up in a canon mirrorless. Anyway what I want from canon mirrorless could be either of the following.
A. a mirrorless camera that would meet or beat the specs of my 70D with an EVF and the form factor of an M3 (slightly larger would be fine) . Equal or better AF with any Canon lens. 
B. A body like the 70d with an EVF. Video specs of the 7d Mark ll or better. 

I am also interested in a FF camera but thats another topic. I know I will wind up with two cameras but I want one to be as good as my 70d but better video usabilty (EVF) plus take more advantage of the DPAF and be hopefully more compact for travel. The other will be a FF camera with a great sensor. Hopefully the new 5D Mark IV.


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## 9VIII (Jan 24, 2016)

Really Canon doesn't have to change anything with EOS-M to make a Full Frame Mirrorless body. The EF-M mount is already 3mm larger in diameter than the Nikon F mount, and 1mm larger than the Sony FE mount.

And if we're going to talk about taking the mirror out of a 1D body, I want to see them put a 42mm sensor in there, which would be just a tad smaller than the 645z. Compared to that thing a 1D body is already compact.


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## tpatana (Jan 24, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



EVF is tiny, so it doesn't take much juice. Also if the main display is oled, it'll consume less power in most cases. So there's couple ways to mitigate around that. So I don't need perfect camera, but close to perfect would be nice


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## cellomaster27 (Jan 24, 2016)

wow! no more catch up?  well, maybe they'll equal something on the market at least. I'll try to keep my expectations low~ haha definitely something exciting though? i really really hope for a revamped sensor!


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## Maiaibing (Jan 24, 2016)

Sorry, did not read through the 60+ posts - but do people expect a possible FF Canon mirrorless would be likely to do fast AF with existing EF-lenses?


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## Maiaibing (Jan 24, 2016)

MayaTlab said:


> reactionary retrograde retrobsessive nostalgia for labelled dials, I'll be bored, but I might still bite.



And still you wonder how Canon get's away with it? :


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## crashpc (Jan 24, 2016)

I hope they divide pro and enthusiasts/consumer body line, so pros wil get nice VF, great battery life, weather sealing and awesome C-AF capabilities with at least 10FPS, while enthusiasts and consumers get new tech in a tinny body like M or M3.


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## KeithBreazeal (Jan 24, 2016)

I find it interesting that the camera body pictured used a full frame lens. Just saying.


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## racebit (Jan 24, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Timing of this rumor coincides with the revival of The X-Files. Coincidence?



Rumor?
Masaya Maeda on September:
"In the very near future, I think that Canon will come out with a mirrorless camera that you would really like. I promise."
This was directed to the interviewer, so it means an enthusiast camera. This is it.

Link: http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/09/16/canon-maeda-promises-eos-m-enthusiasts-more-aps-c-lenses-new-printers


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## crashpc (Jan 24, 2016)

Yes, and some Samsung exec told us that the Samsung will dominate MILC market in three years. Ehm, guess what happens with most claims? It doesn't happen. So Canon is supposed to NOT surprise us as usually, and I would be really surprised to see any deviation from this known unsurprising behavior of Canon.


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## mb66energy (Jan 24, 2016)

What about a 50 MPix FF mirrorless (sensors of 5DS(r)) - here the omitted mirror decreases
shake and sensor AF gives better reliability for sharp shots (of slow moving) scenery.
Add a 5 axis sensor stabilization and you have a perfect camera for (ultra) high resolution images. 
Large capacity battery (inside larger grip) and built in EVF are mandatory.

I don't know what the price of 5Ds' sensors is but maybe it is well below 1000 $ / € - chip production
including LCD panels has low failure rates today so maybe you can use each square inch of your
silicon to sell it.

The following position of that camera may be:
1Dx ii: very fast action, very rigid, high price 6k$/€
5D iv : fast action, all round, medium price 3.5k$/€
5Ds (r): moderate action, high res required, medium price 3.5k$/€
*EOS M 50MPix: slow/no action, high res required, low price 1.8k$/€*

I would prefer a low flange distance bayonet for such an EOS mirrorless because I would really like to see#
how my old FD lenses perform, especially the 2.5/3.5 135 and the 1.4 50 S.S.C. - on the EOS M (classic) the
quality of the 3.5 / 135 is simply outstanding.


----------



## RGF (Jan 24, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> RGF said:
> 
> 
> > Ideally the same sensor as the A7R II with menus and controls that make sense.
> ...



a number of things, here are 2 that bothered this week - may be i have yet to fully understand /utilize the camera,

1. how do I move focus points around?
2. How do I go into "live view" and move around on the screen to check critical focus

Rich


----------



## canonvoir (Jan 24, 2016)

oncosurgdoc said:


> I typically use my camera for ultra-long distance backpacking, where every oz. counts. Point and shoot cameras are popular in that world, but the images are never the best quality. The Canon M3 has been the best compromise for me, offering control, superb imagery, detachable lenses, and, most importantly, light weight. Though few people ever talk about it in this forum, weight, even to a ½ oz., is extremely critical. Because the camera gets tossed around a lot, and it is impossible to really keep it clean when on the trail for months at a time, operational durability in such harsh environments becomes critical. I wait anxiously for the next M series camera with this in mind.



Would the Sony a6000 be lighter? It feels lighter than my M.


----------



## bainsybike (Jan 24, 2016)

If it is full frame, it would be nice if it had an automatic crop mode, and could use existing M lenses without an adaptor.


----------



## tcmatthews (Jan 24, 2016)

RGF said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > RGF said:
> ...



I have found with my A7II (and Nex6 before it) that it can be convenient to map the center button to focus magnifier. Other people choose to map this to focus settings. 

Then when you want to check critical focus while manually focusing you can hit the center button to bring up the focus magnifier and move it around with the surrounding control pad. This was the way my Nex6 was all the time. I do not like the fact that the review magnification is hard mapped to C3. 

If you are using native lenses you can turn on Manual focus assist. Then select DFM mode this allows one shot autofocus with manual adjustments. You only have to move the the focus ring and it will bring magnify the area. You can then move it around with direction pad around.

I currently have c1 and c2 set to focus mode and focus area. I have been simply going into Focus area and selecting the spot select and moving it from there. But this is because I do not have any free buttons to customize. Otherwise if you want a direct link to it you will need to map the focus settings to a button. At this point I can manipulate everything I want without moving my eye away from the view finder.


----------



## canonvoir (Jan 24, 2016)

RGF said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > RGF said:
> ...



I assume you are asking about the Sony?

Moving focus points around is pretty straight forward. You just program a button, in my case the Center button, and click twice then click the four point dial where you want to move the focus point. Pretty simple.

Manual Focus Assist handles this with easy. As soon as you MF it magnifies automatically then you just click the controls wheel where you want it to go. It is a breeze on the Sony.

I have one foot in Canon and one in Sony. I use Canon for sports only now. Everything else is a Sony and I can use my Canon glass and do with great success. Canon should offer a smaller 5Diii body that is mirrorless with EVF and a Sony Sensor. Would be awesome. 

What pushed me to Sony was the sensor.


----------



## tcmatthews (Jan 24, 2016)

infared said:


> JoeDavid said:
> 
> 
> > I really like the Fuji X series and, with the X-Pro2 coming in at 24MP, it may be when I finally add a mirrorless body and lens to my camera equipment. I'll wait for someone to get a full review out with information on the DR of the new Fuji sensor before I decide. That should give Canon to make this rumor happen if it is going to. I can't imagine it will actually be something I'll get excited about. The last few times Canon has promised great things in teaser ads, they have turned out to be duds in terms of what I'm looking for.
> ...



I just traded in my Nex6 and EOS-M I came to the conclusion that for a compact system APS-c does not have any real size advantage. I have been playing with a used OMD-EM5. And came to the conclusion that if you want a complete compact travel system it is really hard to beat m43 and Olympus. Now I am taking it to work instead of the EOM-M as a daily use camera. 

I think I am more likely to buy a PEN-F than anything Canon announces.


----------



## tcmatthews (Jan 24, 2016)

canonvoir said:


> oncosurgdoc said:
> 
> 
> > I typically use my camera for ultra-long distance backpacking, where every oz. counts. Point and shoot cameras are popular in that world, but the images are never the best quality. The Canon M3 has been the best compromise for me, offering control, superb imagery, detachable lenses, and, most importantly, light weight. Though few people ever talk about it in this forum, weight, even to a ½ oz., is extremely critical. Because the camera gets tossed around a lot, and it is impossible to really keep it clean when on the trail for months at a time, operational durability in such harsh environments becomes critical. I wait anxiously for the next M series camera with this in mind.
> ...



Yes and so was my Nex6 but I would take a EOS-M or olympus m43 over a Nex6(or a6000) when backpacking. My cat wrapped up the camera strap an through my EOS-M completely across the living room while I was trying to make a cat video. It was completely fine. I think my Nex6 would be in pieces. 

A number of the Olympus are sold as weather sealed.


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## switters (Jan 24, 2016)

After a year of shooting with both my 5DIII + L lenses (which I've had for several years) and a Fujifilm X-T1 and several of their excellent primes and fast zooms, I finally sold my 5DIII.

I learned that the IQ in the APS-C X-T1 is perfectly sufficient for what I do, and I much prefer the size/weight of the X-T1 kit to the 5DIII. 

I would not be interested in a FF mirrorless from Canon, since the lenses would still be huge. One of the main reasons people switch to mirrorless IMO is because of the size.


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 24, 2016)

tpatana said:


> EVF is tiny, so it doesn't take much juice. Also if the main display is oled, it'll consume less power in most cases. So there's couple ways to mitigate around that. So I don't need perfect camera, but close to perfect would be nice



But the sensor has to be read out and the signal processed continually to feed the display.

Oh, and FWIW, on my mirrorless camera (A7R2), the tiny EVF uses power faster than the rear monitor (according to the manual, anyway - I've never attempted to verify that).


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jan 24, 2016)

RGF said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > RGF said:
> ...



Here's how I do it:

1) There are several ways to kick off point selection. The best, IMO, is called Focus Settings. If you press it, you can immediately start pressing the four directional buttons to move the AF point around. By rolling the wheel, you can change the AF point type. (Click once to enable point selection).

Similar to Focus Settings is Focus Area. Focus area would be my preference because while in it, rolling the wheel allows you to change the size of the AF area directly rather than through the menu that appears in Focus Settings. However, Focus Area requires you to select the AF point type before selecting the point, so there is an additional click involved. (Click twice to enable point selection).

I currently have the center button mapped to Focus Settings.

2) The camera is always in live view mode. I presume you're asking how to zoom in to check focus. The function is called Focus Magnifier. I use it frequently, and it is mapped to C1 (the button behind and to the right of the shutter release). Press it once to enable the mode, a second time to zoom 5x, and a third to zoom 12x. 

Once you are in Focus Magnify, you can use the directional pad to scroll around the screen. 


The requirement to be in either manual focus mode or DMF in order to manually focus or zoom the screen is silly. I would much prefer sony enable full time manual focus. I imagine it has to do with the fly by wire system, but DMF shows that they can overcome it. DMF is a reasonable tool using adapted lenses, but for native glass, AFC is significantly better, and I won't give it up in order to have DMF (hence my mapping of a button to MF mode). 


Hope that answered your questions. If not, let me know.


----------



## StudentOfLight (Jan 24, 2016)

I'd be more interested in seeing a substantial and durable mirrorless camera:


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 24, 2016)

StudentOfLight said:


> I'd be more interested in seeing a substantial and durable mirrorless camera:



What do you want 12-bit raw for?


----------



## StudentOfLight (Jan 24, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be more interested in seeing a substantial and durable mirrorless camera:
> ...


Better buffer at high ISO when you have less than 12 stops of DR.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jan 24, 2016)

I'd think that for 25.6MP 14-bit RAW, you'd have file sizes of about 30MB.

A fast XQD card should be able to handle that at 12FPS, no? You'd likely never fill a buffer.


----------



## nhz (Jan 24, 2016)

Bennymiata said:


> Could the surprise be another lame mirrorless camera?



How would that be a surprise? ;-(

Anyway, I agree with some others that if they are going to make bigger changes in their camera lines, some kind of SL1 replacement with EVF instead of OVF and mirror box is the most likely product now. That camera is ripe for replacement, it would be a good platform to test the new technologies and customer acceptance (EVF, power use, AF performance, lens compatibility etc.) and the potential market is much bigger than for a 'pro' FF mirrorless camera. 

If the performance is good enough it will probably be priced significantly higher than EOS-M ($1000-1500?) to prevent cannibalizing EOS-M sales, or it could be less capable and crippled by e.g. having only EF-S mount so no option to use the more compact EOS-M lenses. Interesting times for sure, but as mentioned before I'm not holding my breath. I hope Canon proves me wrong though ;-)


----------



## 9VIII (Jan 24, 2016)

switters said:


> After a year of shooting with both my 5DIII + L lenses (which I've had for several years) and a Fujifilm X-T1 and several of their excellent primes and fast zooms, I finally sold my 5DIII.
> 
> I learned that the IQ in the APS-C X-T1 is perfectly sufficient for what I do, and I much prefer the size/weight of the X-T1 kit to the 5DIII.
> 
> I would not be interested in a FF mirrorless from Canon, since the lenses would still be huge. One of the main reasons people switch to mirrorless IMO is because of the size.



I think it's still slightly misinformed to say that full frame lenses are larger. I have read comments from a few representatives that the crop versions of various lenses are smaller, but we also have stuff like the 40mm Pancake that is a very sharp lens on full frame, and it's a Pancake.
It seems like a size advantage can potentially be had, but I've never seen a technical reason for this. Exactly what characteristics can be shrunk seems like a bit of a mystery.

As far as crop sensor IQ goes, yes the IQ is great. After letting shots sit in my camera for a month I finally downloaded them yesterday and the detail off of an old 12MP sensor is still surprising.
What you lose is IQ in low light, some wide angle ability, and thin depth of field.
Fuji seems to be doing a good job mitigating this with lenses though. The Fujinon 56f1.2 is as good as any portrait lens ever made, and rumor has it they're working on a 33mm f1.0 lens. If you can make fast, sharp lenses for a crop body then it weakens or potentially negates the advanteges of full frame.
My Sigma 18-35f1.8 Art is another great example. Maybe it's only "as good" as having a regular full frame zoom lens, but the characteristics of the 18-35A are very good. And even if the 18-35A is a bit large, and not necessarily "inexpensive", the equivalent body+lens combo on Full Frame would cost more than twice as much.


----------



## sunnyVan (Jan 24, 2016)

It's probably better to have no expectations and be surprised rather than have high expectations and be disappointed. I'm saving all the excitements til a product announcement is made.


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## StudentOfLight (Jan 24, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> I'd think that for 25.6MP 14-bit RAW, you'd have file sizes of about 30MB.
> 
> A fast XQD card should be able to handle that at 12FPS, no? You'd likely never fill a buffer.


With my 5D-III (22MP) I get CR2 files that are larger than 35MB when shooting at high ISO (e.g. higher than ISO 3200). If you're shooting at low ISO you get smaller files.

TDP has a table which is in the 5D-III review: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-DSLR-Camera-Review.aspx

Note that those numbers refer to a set scene. File sizes vary based on scene detail as well as ISO and camera temperature etc...

A 26MP camera will likely give files larger than 30MB maybe even 40MB at for example ISO 6400.

The other side of the argument is that it 12-bit will result in a smaller file. So it will take up less space on your card(s). New fast cards will be expensive so if you don't need 14-bit and 12-bit will do then why not have your card capable to store 15% more images?


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## rrcphoto (Jan 24, 2016)

sunnyVan said:


> It's probably better to have no expectations and be surprised rather than having high expectations and be disappointed. I'm saving all the excitements til a product announcement is made.



I'm the same.

frankly - the A7 series cameras are not selling well against other full frame cameras, so I can't see canon deciding this this the way they need to go. they need a kickass 5d Mark IV that can use the DC-EVF1 on the hotshoe, and good 4K and everyone will be .. A7 what?

the M is small, light and economic and from all accounts is selling well in Japan. I can't see canon switching from that model any time soon. 

Their goal was #1 in domestic sales by the end of this year.

a pro / enthusiast grade M model will NOT do that in Japan.

this is a Japan company, not a NA company. why people think they'll release a camera just suited for NA clientele is beyond me.

That being said - I could see them make a G5X Frankenstein model. I could see them also going retro and making an AE-1 or a canonet or a T90 like model.

I can't see them doing anything larger than APS-C because that simply is not selling domestically.

as sensors get better and better, smaller cameras are making that much more sense from the optical standpoint if you wish to keep things small.


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## Maiaibing (Jan 24, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> frankly - the A7 series cameras are not selling well against other full frame cameras
> 
> ...the M is small, light and economic and from all accounts is selling well in Japan


Where did you find numbers?



rrcphoto said:


> as sensors get better and better, smaller cameras are making that much more sense from the optical standpoint if you wish to keep things small.


Could still make sense if you want people to stop buying the competition to use with their FF Canon lenses.


----------



## ashmadux (Jan 24, 2016)

Great. This M3 is going back to the shop tomorrow.

Super disappointing. Takes extra effort to get sharp photos, i haven't seen this nonsense since the 7D AF debacle i went through. Overwhelming majority of images are not sharp, and the heavy shutter slap is the main suspect.

Ah well, so glad i bought my little pocket monster- the M1 - has treated me well for years now. WITHOUT powershot firmware. Sheesh.


----------



## sunnyVan (Jan 24, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> sunnyVan said:
> 
> 
> > It's probably better to have no expectations and be surprised rather than having high expectations and be disappointed. I'm saving all the excitements til a product announcement is made.
> ...



I think the possibility of Canon releasing a full frame mirrorless is slimmer than Donald Trump becoming the president. But what do I know? Maybe both will become a reality in 2016. It's an odd year.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 24, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> Where did you find numbers?



BCN for japan. E-PL's are selling well in Japan, nikon 1 even, M's are selling well. I don't even think A7 series makes the top 50 ILC's.

The Japan market is very price AND brand conscious.

you can get the raw data here for monthly data:
http://bcnranking.jp/category/subcategory_0008_month.html

for weekly data, an easier source is here:

http://dslrphoto.com/dslr/space.php?do=jranking

another interesting source is:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/bestsellers/electronics/3946818051/ref=zg_bs_nav_e_4_387455011


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## rrcphoto (Jan 24, 2016)

ashmadux said:


> Great. This M3 is going back to the shop tomorrow.
> 
> Super disappointing. Takes extra effort to get sharp photos, i haven't seen this nonsense since the 7D AF debacle i went through. Overwhelming majority of images are not sharp, and the heavy shutter slap is the main suspect.
> 
> Ah well, so glad i bought my little pocket monster- the M1 - has treated me well for years now. WITHOUT powershot firmware. Sheesh.



what lenses are you using? I've never had a problem with the M3.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 24, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > Where did you find numbers?
> ...



Its interesting that you can apply filters to be able to compare say FF cameras. The Sony a7II is number 4, right after the 6D, 5D MK III, and D750.

For APS-C sensors, from top down, we see Kiss X7, D5500, Kiss X8i, D3300, D5300, a6000, EOS M3

I've removed duplicates that have options such as colors or kit lenses. If combined, they might change the ranking slightly. Basically, its Canon and Nikon dominating Japan sales.


----------



## RGF (Jan 24, 2016)

canonvoir said:


> RGF said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Thanks I will need to spend some time programming the buttons.

BTW I use a metabones adapter with my canon lenses


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## dickgrafixstop (Jan 24, 2016)

My biggest surprise would be a competitive offering, complete with EVF, fast autofocus and rugged construction. I don't need a new lens mount, limited new lens offerings or for that matter any video functions. If Canon mirrorless requires all that, I can go buy a Fuji XT1 with it's excellent lenses and be equipped tomorrow. After three false starts, the biggest surprise would be something that actually competes.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 24, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



you did weekly?

right now A6000 has for once burst up in sales. I think the price got lowered in Japan recently as compared to 2015 - probably because the A6100 is due out next month.

however its a rarity that the A6000 ever made the top of APS-C mirrorless in japan the last year.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2016)

dickgrafixstop said:


> After three false starts, the biggest surprise would be something that actually competes.



I guess you missed the fact that in the largest market geography for MILCs, the EOS M line is selling quite well. But maybe you meant compete in your own mind, in which case Canon doesn't care even a little.


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## AvTvM (Jan 24, 2016)

StudentOfLight said:


> I'd be more interested in seeing a substantial and durable mirrorless camera:


Thanks, but no thanks!
Go buy yourself a 5K video cam!


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## AvTvM (Jan 24, 2016)

nhz said:


> Anyway, I agree with some others that if they are going to make bigger changes in their camera lines, some kind of SL1 replacement with EVF instead of OVF and mirror box is the most likely product now. That camera is ripe for replacement, it would be a good platform to test the new technologies and customer acceptance



Yada yada yada ... That stupid concept was already "tested" extensively by Sony and it's called SLT. It failed miserably in the market for good reason and cost Sony a ton of money and goodwill from a lot of stranded A-mount customers. It is the combination of the absolutely wordt features of mirrorslappers and mirrorless cameras.

DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.


----------



## nhz (Jan 24, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> nhz said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, I agree with some others that if they are going to make bigger changes in their camera lines, some kind of SL1 replacement with EVF instead of OVF and mirror box is the most likely product now. That camera is ripe for replacement, it would be a good platform to test the new technologies and customer acceptance
> ...



Sony SLT isn't mirrorless in my book - by definition - and I don't expect such a camera from Canon. 

I'm talking about a camera with a mix of EOS-M and SL1 features, meant to be small, light and capable enough for the average hobbyist and not just as a 'secundary' or 'soccer mom' camera. Built-in high quality EVF (instead of OVF and mirror/mirrorbox), more advanced AF (especially compared to EOS-M), higher operational speed and build to work with existing EF-S and EF lenses (maybe using an EF/EF-S adapter, but at least with high AF speed etc. otherwise it would be DOA).


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## tallrob (Jan 24, 2016)

The only real surprise would be a direct A7s II competitor.


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## AvTvM (Jan 24, 2016)

SL1 cross EOS-M ... OMG ... I hope not! If i want it "small and stupid", i take my EOS M (even without any viewfinder) but with all of the great, small and dirt-cheap EF-M lenses any day over the SL-1 which is severly crippled even by Canon "Rebel" standards! 

Anyone crying for a Canon MiLC with native EF/EF-S mount ... just superglue that cheapo and well-working EF-/EF-M adapter into the mount of any EOS-M, for chrissake!

There is only one Canon mirrorless priority: one kick-ass, fully competitive EOS-M body at last. Great sensor, great AF, great EVF, great battery charge, small size, reasonable price. Black colour only. Neither gold, silver, white nor pink needed. That is all Thats needed for Canon EOS M system to succeed right now.


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## Don Haines (Jan 24, 2016)

I have said this before...... What if the Rebel line goes mirror less? I can see it happening..... For most people, small, cheap, and good enough are the selling points..... The Future of the Rebel line just may be mirrorless bodies that take the full EOS line of lenses with an adaptor.... The question is, how does Canon get there?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> Yada yada yada ... That stupid concept was already "tested" extensively by Sony and it's called SLT. It failed miserably in the market for good reason and cost Sony a ton of money and goodwill from a lot of stranded A-mount customers.



Did it fail because of the concept...or the nameplate?




AvTvM said:


> DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.



Time will tell. We've all seen the unsuccessful mirrorless present – basically flat sales for a few years now. I suspect if there is to be a successful mirrorless future, that future starts with a Canon/Nikon Rebel/Dxxxx-type body with an EVF and no mirror.


----------



## hubie (Jan 24, 2016)

well, 12,2 MP as with the A7s are just not enough... else: When you want good and open lenses (70-200 f/2.8) you get similar lens sizes as with Canon, so it's really only the body that is smaller, and makes handling more difficult when you buy larger primes or zoom lenses. The concept would only work with lenses like the 40 mm f/2.8 or the 50 mm primes.


----------



## Hillsilly (Jan 25, 2016)

I haven't read through all 8 pages to see if this has already been mentioned. But I think Canon are on the wrong track. There's nothing "wrong" with the M cameras themselves. What's wrong is the lack of quality lens choices and question marks over Canon's commitment.


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Yada yada yada ... That stupid concept was already "tested" extensively by Sony and it's called SLT. It failed miserably in the market for good reason and cost Sony a ton of money and goodwill from a lot of stranded A-mount customers.
> ...


Yes, time will tell.....

I remember when the QuickTake 100 came out...... And people laughed at it because the pictures were garbage.... And my E300 that was useless at ISO 400..... And look where we are now.....

Time will tell. The first efforts at mirrorless were a joke, but there are some darn nice ones out there now. They are only getting better.......


----------



## eosuser1234 (Jan 25, 2016)

-Full Frame, with incamera APS-C crop mode.
-new lenses for EF-M developed for Full frame, but useable on APS-C crop M series cameras, just like how your EF lenses work on EF-M.
-top in class AF speed, lots of AF points.
-New Sensor with 4k as co-developed for 5dm4.
-Faster development of any camera ever due to more staff, and time devoted to project (when Maeda-san talks, stuff gets done.)
-$2099 MSRP.

All this to silence the haters.


----------



## tcmatthews (Jan 25, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...


+1

The first time I saw the Sony Nex cameras in the store I laughed. They were cheaply made. Focused worst than some competing point and shoot cameras. The 16mm pancake was complete over priced garbage with cheap adapters to make a fish eye. They were a joke and almost completely disappeared from the local Best Buy until the Nex5n came out. The same thing for Olympus Pen cameras and Olympus almost went completely out of business. Last year was the first time in 5 years there has been a m43 in that Best Buy.

Olympus OMD-Em cameras and Sony E-mount cameras are back in the local Best Buy this time it is not because they are the next big thing. It is because they actually sell a few. There is also a small Fujifilm display. That said there is way more DSLR gear than mirrorless.

But the mirrorless keep improving. And before you start laughing about Best Buy if I wanted a 100-400L II and 5Ds r tomorrow they have it.


----------



## gman-th (Jan 25, 2016)

I think is may be EOS M with multi layer sensor.


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## Mitch.Conner (Jan 25, 2016)

A WHITE EOS-M!!! YES! SCORE! CHA-CHING... JACKPOT!

I'M SO EXCITED!

Lol.


----------



## crashpc (Jan 25, 2016)

I believe and hope that they have to pull something awesome out. Sony,Pentax,Olympus, about everybody adds some awesome sensor function leaping ole poor Canon. Cash waiting, and I won't buy inferior stuff.


----------



## infared (Jan 25, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > JoeDavid said:
> ...



Now you're talkin!!! I can't wait to get my hands on that camera!


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 25, 2016)

My two cents, for what it's worth:

I would get excited with a full frame MILC from Canon that had a native EF mount. Yeah it would have to be a bit bigger to support the flange distance, but it could still be lighter than a DSLR. The 6D sensor would be a fabulous start. Toss in really nice 1080p video capabilities and it would be a camera well recived by a wide audience. I wouldnt mind seeing a classical design either like a leica M9. I'd buy it in a heartbeat as a killer travel rig.


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## PureClassA (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Time will tell. We've all seen the unsuccessful mirrorless present – basically flat sales for a few years now. I suspect if there is to be a successful mirrorless future, that future starts with a Canon/Nikon Rebel/Dxxxx-type body with an EVF and no mirror.



And we are in agreement yet again. As unpopular with some as this may be, if MILC sales are going to move off the mark they've stagnated at, it's going to be Canon that pops the needle.


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## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Time will tell. We've all seen the unsuccessful mirrorless present – basically flat sales for a few years now. I suspect if there is to be a successful mirrorless future, that future starts with a Canon/Nikon Rebel/Dxxxx-type body with an EVF and no mirror.
> ...



Not necessarily. Sony has definitely made some improvements with their A7-line, judging from the reports I've seen. The current generation may not be ready for workhorse duty, but one or two iterations may get it very close. If they can make it work reliably with Canon and Nikon lenses, they may have the first legit FF pro-grade MILC.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 25, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



It's just a matter of of market penetration. No one has it like Canon does. Certainly that change, but right now, it's Canon. If MILC is going to grow from where it is, it's going to take Canon to do something meaningful with it. Otherwise it keep being a consumer/pro-sumer type device that will keep playing second fiddle.


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...


Maybe, but if pros can reliably use their Canon glass on it, they may start using it as their second (or third) body, which could create some momentum. In any event, it'll light a fire under Canon.


----------



## HaroldC3 (Jan 25, 2016)

C'mon Canon surprise me, I dare you!


----------



## eosuser1234 (Jan 25, 2016)

Probably will not release an EF native mount mirrorless. Canon wants people to be able to use the EF lense via an adaptor, but not natively. They want people to buy into new lenses, while being persuaded into the M system via EF capability via the adaptor.


----------



## Uneternal (Jan 25, 2016)

Canon, please don't screw this up.

- We do not want another EOS-M warmed up crop camera
- We do not want an EOS-M mount
- And we certainly do not want a crippled, worse than 6D camera

If this is anything like a 6D in mirrorless and less than $2000, this is gonna be my next camera.


----------



## ChristopherMarkPerez (Jan 25, 2016)

Why is Canon worried about playing catch-up? Don't they already own 43percent of the overall photo-imaging market? Don't they already own the pro-imaging space? 

Besides, didn't Nikon's marketing team recently make a big splash (and thereby convince the world) about how much _better _a big bulky DSLR is than a small wimpy lightweight mirrorless? Yes, I know, Fuji came out a few days later and suggested that Nikon was nothing less than a few beers short.

Maybe what's really got Canon worried is the perception that they're doing little to "sell the sizzle". Canon's products no longer have "the sizzle" that make marketer's lives oh so very easy.

OTOH, in informal unscientific, non-statistically accurate conversations with folks at several camera shops, the stuff that's flying off the shelves these days are the Sony FF/APS-C mirrorless cameras and lenses. They're seeing the pros switching systems and this has the "pull along effect" of encouraging non-pro buyers into Sony products, too. Nikon and Canon materials are just sitting on the shelves these days. Literally. Some of the salesmen noted they'd not sold a DSLR in a while. It feels like it's been pretty much "dulls-ville" in the Canon Camp since the 5D MkII. So maybe Canon no longer owns 43percent of the overall market and they really _are_ frightened?



Canon Rumors said:


> ...there has been internal talk at Canon about no longer playing catch-up in emerging segments, this including cinema and mirrorless...


----------



## ChristopherMarkPerez (Jan 25, 2016)

Looking at it from this perspective, it strongly smells of Canon not wanting to eat it's own lunch by sinking yet more costly R&D monies into parallel product lines.

Which reminds me of Sony's own conundrum many years ago. Siemens offered Sony what would've been first whack at the LCD flat-panel market (which at the time was basically non-existant). Sony passed because their Trinitron TV's were selling like hot cakes.

So, Siemans went to LG and Samsung. And the rest, as we say, is history.

The moral of the story should/could be obvious. I think Canon is currently facing a similar conundrum. Only in this case, the situation is slightly different in that Sony/Oly/Pana/Fuji have already built-out/carved-out/proven the market. 

Of course it doesn't help that Sony has heavily invested in sensors of all kinds. Canon has a LOT of catch-up to play and I seriously doubt they have the financial resources to pull it off.




Hillsilly said:


> I haven't read through all 8 pages to see if this has already been mentioned. But I think Canon are on the wrong track. There's nothing "wrong" with the M cameras themselves. What's wrong is the lack of quality lens choices and question marks over Canon's commitment.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> I TOH, in informal unscientific, non-statistically accurate conversations with folks at several camera shops, the stuff that's flying off the shelves these days are the Sony FF/APS-C mirrorless cameras and lenses. They're seeing the pros switching systems and this has the "pull along effect" of encouraging non-pro buyers into Sony products, too.



As usual around here, opinion trumps objective reality.


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Jan 25, 2016)

Tell you what. Come on over and I'll personally take you to the shops I mentioned and you too can ask any and all questions you like. That way you can verify for yourself the things you might hold in doubt.   



neuroanatomist said:


> As usual around here, opinion trumps objective reality.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 25, 2016)

Uneternal said:


> Canon, please don't screw this up.
> 
> - We do not want another EOS-M warmed up crop camera
> - We do not want an EOS-M mount
> - And we certainly do not want a crippled, worse than 6D camera



who's this "we" .. your multiple personalities?

I frankly do want an much better performing M in the EF-M mount. I want the damned bugs of the M3 fixed and the shot to shot times dramatically improved. I also want the mag alloy body back that the M had.

I also don't want to go to a fixed EVF either, so GX7/8 style or bust, because the articulating EVF on the M3 is amazing.

so speak for yourself.


----------



## mkabi (Jan 25, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> We weren’t told much, but we were told that Canon will “surprise a lot of people” with one of their next mirrorless cameras. We weren’t told if it was an APS-C or full frame mirrorless camera, but I don’t think there’s much that would surprise people if it was a crop camera.</p>
> <p>The same source said there has been internal talk at Canon about no longer playing catch-up in emerging segments, this including cinema and mirrorless. It may sound arrogant, but there’s those that feel if Canon gets fully behind mirrorless, they’re the one brand that could help the segment finally reach the masses.</p>
> <p>There have been rumors that the EOS M line could get an announcement for CP+ next month, alongside the EOS-1D X Mark II.</p>
> <p><em>More to come…</em></p>
> <span id="pty_trigger"></span>



Yeah... for some reason... I believe that they are going to "surprise a lot of people," but not in the way that they want or what we are expecting. I foresee another XC10 concoction coming, in which case keep that Frankenstein behind the patents.

Hopefully, they bought out the NX system... lets wait and see.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 25, 2016)

mkabi said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We weren’t told much, but we were told that Canon will “surprise a lot of people” with one of their next mirrorless cameras. We weren’t told if it was an APS-C or full frame mirrorless camera, but I don’t think there’s much that would surprise people if it was a crop camera.</p>
> ...



you know what's funny. from reading the threads of actual users of the XC10 on EOSHD .. they love it.

seems the only one complaining about it are reviewers and those that never picked it up.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 25, 2016)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Tell you what. Come on over and I'll personally take you to the shops I mentioned and you too can ask any and all questions you like. That way you can verify for yourself the things you might hold in doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



still a pretty small statistical sample. you are in france?

it's actually pretty difficult to get a feel for Europe, there's not much in the way of amazon, etc where you can track sales statistics.

looking at amazon france, i'm not seeing what you are though:

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/electronics/342795031/ref=zg_bs_nav_ce_2_13910691#2

amazon germany though as always been for the last 2 years pretty MILC top heavy:

http://www.amazon.de/gp/bestsellers/photo/571862/ref=zg_b_bs_571862_1#2

however full frame flying off the shelves? DSLR's collecting dust?

I've never seen any statistics of that anywhere. also if that was the case, DSLR's wouldn't be shipping in still 3x the quantity as MILC's.

I have seen over the 4-6 months the A7 series sell well at BH photo video, as you can see from their current list even:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Digital-Cameras/ci/9811/N/4288586282

however in a more mass market, we see the A7 disappear.

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Interchangeable-Lens-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/12556502011/ref=zg_bs_nav_e_3_281052#2


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## rrcphoto (Jan 25, 2016)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Of course it doesn't help that Sony has heavily invested in sensors of all kinds. Canon has a LOT of catch-up to play and I seriously doubt they have the financial resources to pull it off.


Canon doesn't have the financial resources to create another camera product line? for real?

I think you forget just the size difference between canon and the REST of that market you mentioned.

Sony never published their numbers last quarter except to say that sales were down, profits were slightly up.
however Olympus who is #1 in Japan for 2015, did.

they expect to ship 510,000 cameras for fiscal 2015.

That's ALL.

meanwhile on the other side of the fence, canon will ship 3.8 million ILC's.

Just to put this in prospective to how much more manufacturing, logistics and sales ability a canon has versus the other niche players that you are bringing up. 

Sony at last measure was at 13% and they have slipped down to 11% from what I hear. they may be shipping 800,000-1 million cameras, and that really hasn't changed much in the 5-7 years that sony has had Minolta.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > As usual around here, opinion trumps objective reality.
> ...



Oh, I've talked to people in camera stores around here...usually the owners (a couple are personal friends). Canon's policies really don't favor brick and mortar stores, particularly small chains or solos. Things like volume invoice credits, prepayment requirements, and margin. Nikon is a little better, but not much. When you're the big fish in the pond, you can get away with it. Margins on MILCs and 3rd party lenses are higher, it's a way for those manufacturers to increase their market penetration. 

Maybe you watched _Miracle on 34th Street_ over the holidays? Remember how all the Macy's salespeople were given a list of products to push (until Kris came along, but after all it _was_ a fantasy story)? When sales people tell you something is popular and 'flying off the shelves', you should consider their motivation. 

The objective reality is the sales figures. Mirrorless is ~25% of the ILC market and their sales are basically flat. Anyone who says different is selling something…in your case quite literally!


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ChristopherMarkPerez said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



speaking of numbers.

there was a really curious mass shipment of MILC"s into Asia regions in november. 

it's really curious because it was dramatic. up from around 60,000 units the prior year to over 180K last year.

doesn't seem to be attributed to any one vendor.. however the only two vendors I could see that could ship that much inventory are canon or nikon.

outside of Asia for Europe and NA - MILC shipments slumped hard. only 130K units shipped to those two markets versus 540K DSLR's.


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ChristopherMarkPerez said:
> ...



Source?


----------



## eosuser1234 (Jan 25, 2016)

http://www.everyothershot.com/will-the-eos-m4-be-full-frame/

Interesting read to show that a full frame EOS-M mirrorless is very likely a possibility, with a sensor being able to crop on its own depending on what lense is used (according to Canon patent jargon). I.E. Self cropping when used with EF-S lense with adaptor, or with EF-M (APS-C).

Another interesting note, EF-M mount (not current lenses) has been designed all along to work on full frame sensors. EF-M lenses can continue to be released without any difference between aps-c and full frame versions. I.E. a 50mm EF-M will be 50mm on full frame and 80mm on APS-C EF-M mounts. Just like EF lense work just fine on APS-C cameras. Those full frame EF-M lenses may come with a red square mark on them. EF= Red Dot, EF-M (Full frame)=Red Square. 
EF-S (white square), EF-M (aps-c) White Dot. 

4k is coming soon.

Canon Rumors should launch a contest who can guess the specs closest. And whoever wins, gets a EOS M new body.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 25, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



CIPA data.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 25, 2016)

eosuser1234 said:


> http://www.everyothershot.com/will-the-eos-m4-be-full-frame/
> 
> Interesting read to show that a full frame EOS-M mirrorless is very likely a possibility, with a sensor being able to crop on its own depending on what lense is used (according to Canon patent jargon). I.E. Self cropping when used with EF-S lense with adaptor, or with EF-M (APS-C).


except that a tilt shift adapter doesn't make sense for an EF lens to a FF EF-M sensor.

the tilt or shift adapter for a full frame EF lens to a cropped APS-C sensor. wonderful. I use one of those with the EF-M and FD lenses.

in theory the EF-M shipping with a focal reducer adapter and a tilt shift adapter and a nice performing camera that is tuned for EF lens performance? could be a nice package.


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...


Quotes and URLs?


----------



## JBSF (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ChristopherMarkPerez said:
> 
> 
> > I TOH, in informal unscientific, non-statistically accurate conversations with folks at several camera shops, the stuff that's flying off the shelves these days are the Sony FF/APS-C mirrorless cameras and lenses. They're seeing the pros switching systems and this has the "pull along effect" of encouraging non-pro buyers into Sony products, too.
> ...



Must be the same shop where they told me that Swarovski used their cystals for prisms in their binoculars.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> > Source?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spoon-feed

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html


----------



## kphoto99 (Jan 25, 2016)

PureClassA said:


> My two cents, for what it's worth:
> 
> I would get excited with a full frame MILC from Canon that had a native EF mount. Yeah it would have to be a bit bigger to support the flange distance, but it could still be lighter than a DSLR. The 6D sensor would be a fabulous start. Toss in really nice 1080p video capabilities and it would be a camera well recived by a wide audience. I wouldnt mind seeing a classical design either like a leica M9. I'd buy it in a heartbeat as a killer travel rig.



If you add a fixed mirror to the camera then it can be very thin. Optically the mirror can be a part of the sensor stack.


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > > Source?
> ...



??? ;D 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/smartass

Even references to public data merit brief citations.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...



He did cite. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lazy

http://bfy.tw/3uIk


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> He did cite.
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lazy
> 
> http://bfy.t



"CIPA data" is not a citation. If you're already familiar with CIPA it will do the trick;however, I am not intimately familiar with CIPA data, nor are many other readers on this forum. Assuming everyone has the same contextual background as you is presumptuous.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ivory%20tower


----------



## 1kind (Jan 25, 2016)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Looking at it from this perspective, it strongly smells of Canon not wanting to eat it's own lunch by sinking yet more costly R&D monies into parallel product lines.
> 
> Which reminds me of Sony's own conundrum many years ago. Siemens offered Sony what would've been first whack at the LCD flat-panel market (which at the time was basically non-existant). Sony passed because their Trinitron TV's were selling like hot cakes.
> 
> ...


Canon doesn't have the financial resources? You do know that out of Sony, Nikon, Fuji, etc., they do NOT have any debt? Everything they purchase whether its buildings or businesses, its cash.

So I'm sure they have the resources and the ability to do R&D perfectly fine. Its a matter of whether or not they are willing to spend money towards it.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > He did cite.
> ...



Apologies for my presumptuousness in assuming that an intelligent person with >1200 posts on a Canon forum, who has been engaged in previous discussions referencing CIPA data including links, would have the necessary contextual understanding. My bad. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/memory


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Understandable, but if you'll notice, I rarely make reference to specific data. My thing is to address how people think about information rather than the source of it. You're good at digging up data, but I try to frame data in a way it will be understood. 

Another bit of background: in rrcphoto's original post he had different numbers, then edited before I posted my first reply. To be honest, I thought he was making it up to sound reasonable, so I thought I was calling him on that. (occasionally people here fabricate information from secret sources). If "CIPA data" had been cited by one of the posters I believe to be reliable I probably would have let it go there.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 25, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...



lol .. so now you are saying I'm not reliable.

wow .. nice thanks.

and yes, I went first by memory,and then verified the numbers again to make sure I knew them. I had transposed the global shipment number in my mind with asia.

as far as your high and mighty attitude, I could give you the link, but if you are too freaking lazy to do "cipa camera statistics" in google.. well, heck, go ahead and waste 10 more minutes writing replies.

when quoting numbers such as that .. I figured that anyone with a reasonable amount of active braincells on a camera / canon forum would know that shipment data comes from CIPA.

clearly I was wrong .. or perhaps I was correct .


----------



## josephandrews222 (Jan 25, 2016)

[/quote]
in theory the EF-M shipping with a focal reducer adapter and a tilt shift adapter and a nice performing camera that is tuned for EF lens performance? could be a nice package.
[/quote]

I'm trying to get my thinking in line with this--a small camera with not one but two adapters attached to it.


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 25, 2016)

in theory the EF-M shipping with a focal reducer adapter and a tilt shift adapter and a nice performing camera that is tuned for EF lens performance? could be a nice package.
[/quote]

I'm trying to get my thinking in line with this--a small camera with not one but two adapters attached to it.
[/quote]

perhaps not at once? wouldn't work. two separate adapters.


----------



## ChristopherMarkPerez (Jan 25, 2016)

Indeed, I am in Europe.

I have no skin in any particular company's game. I, like many interested parties, simply choose the tools that best suit personal needs and situations. I have no vested interest in skewing observations one way or another just to "prove" some point or another.

The folks I talked with in informal conversations were the big sellers at Salon de la Photo Paris last November.

I also keep in touch with a few sales guys back in the States. I've known them for, well, decades now. They were the ones who sold me all the Canon DSLRs I've owned over the years, as well as more than a few lenses, too. I'm sure they enjoyed their commissions off the sales I gave them. They are the ones who confirmed what the Parisians were telling me.

Again, nothing I said has any statistical backing. My observations stem from a series of on-going informal off the record conversations with guys who work behind the counters at various camera stores in Europe and the US. That's all.




rrcphoto said:


> ...still a pretty small statistical sample. you are in france?...


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 25, 2016)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Indeed, I am in Europe.
> 
> I have no skin in any particular company's game. I, like many interested parties, simply choose the tools that best suit personal needs and situations. I have no vested interest in skewing observations one way or another just to "prove" some point or another.
> 
> ...



You might not have any skin in the game, but the people that tell you do. And the sales numbers just don't support their comments...............


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> You're good at digging up data, but I try to frame data in a way it will be understood.



I never try to 'frame *data* in a way *it* will be understood' because I know that data are plural.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> ChristopherMarkPerez said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed, I am in Europe.
> ...



...and that's why anecdotes aren't data.


----------



## ChristopherMarkPerez (Jan 25, 2016)

Have it your way. Certainly. By all means.

Just don't forget that data lags. OK? It reports - past tense. It's not a very good reflection of the present.

We'll see you in another 12 months to see how your "data" is doing, shall we?




neuroanatomist said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > ChristopherMarkPerez said:
> ...


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > You're good at digging up data, but I try to frame data in a way it will be understood.
> ...



I used to be a pedant, too; it turns out that when you engage in pedantry it detracts from your message.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jan 25, 2016)

It gets tiresome listening to the same old crap. Again, and again, and again, and again. In 2011 I was told very directly by a photographer that MILC would catch up to DSLR's in 12 months and I was to mark his words. It has happened every year since then. All this talk of little shops selling more MILC, this that and the other. And here we are. It's 2016. And the gap has actually widened.

But, I can just feel it's coming...I can just...feel it...


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> lol .. so now you are saying I'm not reliable.


I said nothing of the sort. I just don't know that you are, and your original post sounded like you were pulling data out of...



> and yes, I went first by memory,and then verified the numbers again to make sure I knew them.


Excellent, my error.



> as far as your high and mighty attitude, I could give you the link, but if you are too freaking lazy


As I said, it sounded like you were making up data. The reason I asked for the link is to make sure you had one. If I had cared I would have looked it up.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Have it your way. Certainly. By all means.
> 
> Just don't forget that data lags. OK? It reports - past tense. It's not a very good reflection of the present.
> 
> We'll see you in another 12 months to see how your "data" is doing, shall we?



November, 2015 was two months ago. Mirrorless was 25% of ILC. In 2014, it was 24% of sales. Oh, yeah...MILCs will take over any day now. 

Care to share any actual data of your own? Just don't forget that anecdotes don't count.


----------



## pulsarman (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > You're good at digging up data, but I try to frame data in a way it will be understood.
> ...



Right on! My astrophysics students never tire of me telling them that  Now let's try to get the finance sector on board with it.


----------



## shutterlag (Jan 25, 2016)

I'm not hopeful. Canon's sensor tech has fallen so far behind, and even if they improve that, they'll need a new mount to support mirrorless. 

Nikon (D500 - holy sh**), Fuji, Sony - they're all firing on all cylinders. I've got a mess of Canon L glass, and two bodies, but it's all going away by the end of the year. Either the X-T2, X-Pro2, or Sony A6100 will be my landing zone.


----------



## thepancakeman (Jan 25, 2016)

pulsarman said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...



Actually data is generally used (and accepted) as a mass noun. And those that try to use it as a plural, typically fail (as you can read on page 2 of this link): 
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/is-data-singular-or-plural


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

thepancakeman said:


> pulsarman said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Yeah, and, "Those comix is fo'shizzle stanky," is a sentence using all proper and accepted words. :


----------



## pulsarman (Jan 25, 2016)

thepancakeman said:


> pulsarman said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I don't buy it. One could also say that McDonalds is generally accepted as high cuisine given the amount sold. Also, what does datum then mean? The manual of style for the most prominent journal in astrophysics specifies data as plural. But I do agree that, ultimately, usage may trump traditional use. Language does evolve. That doesn't prevent me from pushing to sustain usage of "data" as plural, especially since that is correct usage.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jan 25, 2016)

But Grammar Girl said so!


----------



## mkabi (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> November, 2015 was two months ago. Mirrorless was 25% of ILC. In 2014, it was 24% of sales. Oh, yeah...MILCs will take over any day now.
> 
> Care to share any actual data of your own? Just don't forget that anecdotes don't count.



Here is what I do not get... if DSLRs are flying off the shelves as you all point out with CIPA.
And, MILCs aren't making a dent in those numbers, why even invest in MILCs????
Why is Canon investing in MILCs???
Its counter-intuitive.

Here is what else I see... I see the prices of Sony alpha cameras going up, and Canon DSLR prices going down...
Please explain using CIPA.


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

pulsarman said:


> thepancakeman said:
> 
> 
> > Actually data is generally used (and accepted) as a mass noun. And those that try to use it as a plural, typically fail (as you can read on page 2 of this link):
> ...



Context is key: in science (or academia generally) you can use "datum" and "data" in their more formal senses. Outside that context people will either not get it, or be put off by pedantry. Academia is also full of jargon that has been taken from common use and given very specific meaning; two examples are "spin" and "moment." Even "planet" has a very specific meaning, being derived from a Latin word having nothing to do with astronomy.



> That doesn't prevent me from pushing to sustain usage of "data" as plural, especially since that is correct usage.


No, but I hope you realize it's a Quixotic task.

And, of course, "datum" has another meaning, almost completely distinct from its sense as a quantum of information.


----------



## StudentOfLight (Jan 25, 2016)

I got a weird feeling... "120 MP" here we come ;D


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

There is only one singular data.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> There is only one singular data.



I don't know what you guys are talking about. I'm a mechanical guy, so I care about the singular (datum) and the plural (datums).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2016)

mkabi said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > November, 2015 was two months ago. Mirrorless was 25% of ILC. In 2014, it was 24% of sales. Oh, yeah...MILCs will take over any day now.
> ...



Who is pointing that out? Not me. ILC sales are falling, dSLR sales are dropping, MILC sales are stable. Thus, the ILC market share for mirrorless is rising, even though the absolute size of that segment isn't really growing. dSLRs still outsell MILCs by 3:1. That's globally – in Asia, MILCs are much more popular. Making a _limited_ investment in MILCs certainly makes sense for Canon, who solidly leads the dSLR market. Because of that lead, other makers push harder in the smaller segment where Canon doesn't dominate. 

The M line is a success. *pauses for guffaws* People in CR see the M fire sales, the lack of a US release for many products, etc., and think it's a failure. Japan is the largest single MILC market, and the M was the #2 best-selling model there. Subsequent versions have also been very popular. Consider the MILC investment and number of lines from other makers, vs. the one line from Canon. Yet Canon is 4th, barely behind Panasonic and with ~10% market share. If mirrorless starts to dominate the ILC market, Canon has already shown they are competitive in that segment, with a minor investment.


----------



## Andyx01 (Jan 25, 2016)

Surprise! -- There is no Surprise.


----------



## Orangutan (Jan 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> There is only one singular data.


Are you sure that's not Lore?


----------



## scyrene (Jan 26, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.



Wrong. As I and others have said before, we LIKE the DSLR form factor, and can't see how a tiny body could be used handheld with large lenses. Can you not see that OTHERS have different needs and desires from you?


----------



## scyrene (Jan 26, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > You're good at digging up data, but I try to frame data in a way it will be understood.
> ...



Welllll... While it is etymologically a plural, and mostly still used that way in academic contexts, it is treated as a mass noun (uncountable, taking a singular verb) by many people in general speech nowadays.

Edit: I see this has already been addresses above. I guess I really need to stop replying before getting to the end of the thread. As you were...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 26, 2016)

Many people believe 'alot' is a word and use it as such nowadays. Fo'shizzle!


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 26, 2016)

scyrene said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.
> ...



Look long and hard at the plethora of film cameras that were out there....there were a LOT!!!! of different formats from micro sized instamatics to 8x10's..... The most popular of those formats was the 35mm camera.... and it made it to the top because the combination of price/performance/size/quality was the most popular. A heck of a lot of people liked the ergonomics of it and this is the reason why all those DSLRs have the form factor they have now... BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE IT!

Human Factor engineering is a huge part of designing a successful product and this camera form factor has had 100 years of development to get where it is now. This is the future of mirrorless cameras, not toy cameras like the M.


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 26, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Many people believe 'alot' is a word and use it as such nowadays. Fo'shizzle!


Dang nab it! Now I have to zeroize my spellchecker!


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 26, 2016)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Have it your way. Certainly. By all means.
> 
> Just don't forget that data lags. OK? It reports - past tense. It's not a very good reflection of the present.
> 
> We'll see you in another 12 months to see how your "data" is doing, shall we?



actually in this case it doesn't. considering this is shipped data, not sales data. 

MILC sales have been pretty static .. especially considering that canon is moving alot of MILC's into NA and also into Japan, and that Sony has flipped from shipping SLT's to flipping mirrorless, there really hasn't been much "growth".


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## Adelino (Jan 26, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



I think in the not too distant future we will see cameras offered with the same basic specs but with different form factors. Small bodies and large bodies and other personal choices in ergonomics as well. Each year we get to the closer to the point where IQ is less of a concern and personal preferences will have a larger impact on sales.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 26, 2016)

dilbert said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



no, actually the market-share is what is pretty static. and as suggested, much of the shift really was sony, shifting shipments from SLT's to MILC's. other than that, the marketshare has floated around the 25% mark. 

if you take into account that paradigm shift AND the fact that since CIPA started recorded data, Fuji, Canon and a few other Japan companies started shipping Mirrorless, it's safe to say that the real market hasn't grown that much for the vendors, if anything it's probably shrunk. since at the start it was 19%.

Sony's shift alone should have amounted to a 8-10% shift. (decrease in slt shipments, increase in mirrorless shipments)

which btw, is actually why sony's marketshare FELL after shifting over to mirrorless, and yet people want canon to do that.. funny fact.


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 26, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Many people believe 'alot' is a word and use it as such nowadays. Fo'shizzle!



Your just going have to give them they're allotment of pour grammar.


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## rrcphoto (Jan 26, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Last time I saw a graph from CIPA, DSLR sales were in decline and mirrorless sales were flat.
> 
> Are there any newer graphs that show DSLR sales either plateauing or rising? Or mirrorless falling?



yeah, and the scales are way off too most cases.

the marketshare really hasn't changed that much over the course of 4 years.

some proponents like to exaggerate aspects but the reality is, that sony switch off it's mass DSLR shipment's, that would account for around and 10-18% drop in SLR shipments.

since it's shipments, one has to be aware that both canon AND nikon both have decreased their inventory on hand and ship more on demand then they did on the past.

CIPA started recording MILC / DSLR I think in the beginning of 2012 with 19% marketshare.

that did not have Fuji, Canon as the two notables, and sony was still shipping SLT's in mass quanitities

zip forward to the end of 2015.

Sony has flipped it's 13-18% marketshare over to mirrorless. Canon is now shipping MILC's, so is Fuji.

the total marketshare? 25%. as a matter of fact, since Sony flipped over to full time mirrorless in conjunction really with the A7 release (when you stopped seeing the junk slt's floating around) accounted for around a 3% shipment marketshare "step" and after that "step" it's basically been plateaued.

there's a few obvious "spikes" in shipments, surrounding new products - but some seem to be attributed to canon mass shipping versus any real trend.

so you do the math on that and tell me if it's really growing to you or even remaining static.

as a pure precentage, both have slide from their 2012 shipments, and keep in mind that we're also not including the fact that this is FOB prices, mirrorless at least in some areas of the world are viciously slashed in prices to compete in the market.

DSLR's have fallen the most percentage wise, however if you account for sony's SLT share, the percentages are actually not far off.

2012 
2013	85%	84%
2014	65%	83% (18%)
2015*56%	78% (21%)

Note that in late 2013, sony flipped from SLT to mirrorless. both are within a 9-11% delta flip.

if you note, we see the biggest drop between 2013-2014 when sony essentially exited the DSLR market.

also 2015 data only includes 11 months, so DSLR may have stablized from 2014-15, now that the impact of sony is more static.

also consider these are shipments.

Shipments are also tied to new products. canon and nikon release most of thier cameras on three year or more cycles,so there is more of a ebb and flow to their shipments. where with so many companies in the small 25% niche, they are shipping on average 9 TIMES the new products per year than canon or nikon are.

and even with that, we're not seeing a considerable change.


and then you consider mount marketshare which has an big impact on whether people switch systems. the F and EF mount are growing at nearly three times the rate as all mirrorless mounts combined.

Even today.

that increases the used market, and the more locked in because just about any DSLR is "good enough" for most people now.

(there was alot of edits to this.. sorry)


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## Orangutan (Jan 26, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Many people believe 'alot' is a word and use it as such nowadays. Fo'shizzle!
> ...



I agree, "alot" is not at all cromulent.


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## scyrene (Jan 26, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I find it embiggens any sentence actually.


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## thepancakeman (Jan 26, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...



Irregardless, I think you are all just disorientated. I'll just go back to working on my datumbase since it only has one record.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Jan 26, 2016)

LukasS said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting grouping. Hadn't considered it before but Cinema EOS is also mirrorless. But if they're not going to play catch-up, then what? Leap frog to the front? Looking at one of the other threads, again a big difference between (say) Arri & Canon is sensor performance at high ISO/low light. When is Canon going to fix that?
> ...



Canon have showed an end to end 8K system to be frank this maybe ideal for TV down the pike but for Cinema Super 35 will always be the limiting factor. Arri have a 65mm camera as well as full frame / open gate cameras which are ideal for anamorphic lenses which dont work on Super 35. Same is true for Red with the Weopon so Canon have a lot of convincing to do.


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## Tugela (Jan 27, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.


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## scyrene (Jan 27, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Got any evidence to back that assertion up?


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## brad-man (Jan 27, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Is that a 70-200 you're hiding, or are you just glad to see me?


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## Don Haines (Jan 27, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


My friend, (5'4 and about 120 pounds soaking wet) loved the 8x10 and 4x5.........


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## zim (Jan 27, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



OM1 :


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## rrcphoto (Jan 27, 2016)

zim said:


> OM1 :



except OM1 was
a) manual focus.
b) all mechanical without even a winder
c) no viewfinder information outside of a little exposure needle.
d) design in an era where normal lenses weighed around 200-400g


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## Don Haines (Jan 28, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > OM1 :
> ...


but it worked at -60C.....


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 28, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > zim said:
> ...



But I wouldn't......


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## jolive3 (Jan 28, 2016)

I like mirrorless. Love the weight, form factor and all that stuff. Hate battery life and speed of the all scene. And what I hate the most - having both a Fuji X-T1 and x20 - is the focus confirmation for out of focus frames. Sure, it's accurate, sure the X-T1 EVF is great but shooting from the waist using the LCD and having focus confirmation for an out of focus image.. it's disappointing. Only happens in studio environments and low light but it's bad enough to ruin one shot. My client won't ever see some of his best shots because event at f/7.1 he remains a blur. I hope that Canon comes with some mirrorless stuff that at least is *reliable* (and it would be nice to have some film simulation modes because you really can't beat Fuji colors - even the provia default one).


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## rrcphoto (Jan 28, 2016)

so domestically .. 

Canon increased it's marketshare in P&S cameras, DSLR's and MILC's.

Ranked #1, #1, and #3 respectively.

all this angst that canon clearly doesn't know what they are doing and they are losing the market - sounds perhaps a little premature.

The fact that in MILC's they are selling more than Fuji, Panasonic, Nikon and Ricoh is rather interesting.

especially considering the limited product portfolio.

I would imagine the last thing that OM, Sony,etc wants canon to do - is start taking Mirrorless seriously in Japan, as they moved into #3 without even trying.

on other news, by doing some math .. Sony fell to 7.5% marketshare for ILC's domestically, against Canon's 43+%

(Sony 15.4% and Canon 37% respectively in 2014)

yes, the Sony model is certainly one to follow.

datasource:

CIPA data to determine japan MILC/DSLR marketshare
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-2014_e.pdf
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201511_e.pdf

BCN awards for 2015 data
http://bcnranking.jp/award/gallery/2016/hard/index.html

and you can do the math yourself


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## tpatana (Jan 28, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



First time in my life shot 4x5 last weekend, and it was soooo awesome.


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 28, 2016)

tpatana said:


> First time in my life shot 4x5 last weekend, and it was soooo awesome.


Did you play around with tilting the lens board and film plane? The effects are insanely incredible.... A canon T/S lens is only a fraction of the versatility....


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## tpatana (Jan 28, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > First time in my life shot 4x5 last weekend, and it was soooo awesome.
> ...



Some amount in the end, first few hours was just trying to get something and hope they come ok. Just the focusing, framing, setting F and those took ages. And we didn't have any way to sync my strobes, so we went T-mode. One person press trigger. Second person manually triggers strobe, first person presses trigger again to close the shutter.

It was very interesting day, and great learning experience how cameras actually work. Now I can slightly better relate to the big names, how much work they have to go through to get the pics out good. I don't know yet if the focus was any good, or even if the flash power was proper range. Took total ~10 shots in time where my 1DX at a sport field would have taken 1000-2000.

Nowadays we take everything given. Most cameras just turn on green box and shoot away. 1DX doesn't have the green box, but you can still turn it quite automatic. Very interesting experience going exactly opposite.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 28, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > First time in my life shot 4x5 last weekend, and it was soooo awesome.
> ...



The 24mm MkII and the 17 used with a geared head so you can emulate rear movements isn't that far off, the trouble is the reverse tilt aspect of retrofocus T/S lenses, comparatively little tilt degree range and limited past infinity focusing. For instance with forward tilt on the lens (particularly the 17) you need to put reverse tilt on the camera to keep verticals true, this can use up a good portion of the meager 8º of tilt angle. The other thing the TS-E's could do with is focusing much further past infinity, they go some way past but it would be nicer if they went further, particularly the 45 and 90, as this gives a lot of control over the angle of the plane of focus.


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## deleteme (Jan 28, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> We weren’t told much, but we were told that Canon will “surprise a lot of people” with one of their next mirrorless cameras.



Maybe the surprise will be an A7 with EF mount.


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## deleteme (Jan 28, 2016)

Tugela said:


> No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.



Sorry to disagree but "back in the day" SLRs had the form they had because it was the shape necessary to enclose the mechanicals of the SLR. Makers used different styling and ergonomic approaches to differentiate their cameras and of course make them attractive. Rollei did try the cube format used by MF SLRs in its SL2000 but it was not successful for various reasons some having to do with the fact it did not have the traditional 35mm form.
SLRs became jewelry at the time of the AE-1 intro when ads of tennis pros using them were aired.


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## nhz (Jan 29, 2016)

Normalnorm said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.
> ...



I remember that back in the days of the Olympus OM system introduction some photographers ridiculed those as 'toys' or 'cameras for Japanese girls'. But after some time quite a few pros were using them because they found that they could get similar performance and quality for half the weight/size (plus some features that Canikon didn't have like an advanced flash system). I didn't have a problem using 300 or 400mm lenses with those small bodies either ...

Nowadays I still notice the demand in the forums for 'manly' cameras, especially from the wedding shooters who apparently are afraid that if their camera is too small they won't be taken serious by the customer ;-(

If people enjoy lugging and showing off big/heavy cameras (the 1Dx II is rumored to be even heavier! So Canon does listen to its customers) good for them, but I don't share their preferences.


----------



## nhz (Jan 29, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > zim said:
> ...



I don't know at what temperature the OM-2 stopped working (never below about -15C in my country, it always just worked). But despite auto exposure the battery lasted for about two years or over 10.000 shots. I guess it is progress that you now have to recharge the battery after one day of use ;-(


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 29, 2016)

nhz said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...


The only thing it used the battery for was the light meter.... when it got real cold, the battery froze, the light meter stopped working, and you guessed at your exposure....


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 29, 2016)

nhz said:


> If people enjoy lugging and showing off big/heavy cameras (the 1Dx II is rumored to be even heavier! So Canon does listen to its customers) good for them, but I don't share their preferences.



It's not about showing off, it's about ergonomics. A pancake lens works great on my EOS M, and feels weird and uncomfortable on my 1D X. A 24-70/2.8 or larger feels perfect and balanced on my 1D X and weird on my EOS M. A 70-200/2.8 or larger also feels perfect and balanced on my 1D X, ungainly on a non-gripped body, and an ergonomic nightmare with my EOS M.


----------



## sunnyVan (Jan 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> nhz said:
> 
> 
> > If people enjoy lugging and showing off big/heavy cameras (the 1Dx II is rumored to be even heavier! So Canon does listen to its customers) good for them, but I don't share their preferences.
> ...



Showing off is not such a terrible thing.


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 31, 2016)

Crosswind said:


> I'd like to add a poll to this thread to see what people think about Canon's next mirrorless. APS-C sized or will Canon go FF for the first time? I'm curious. Can't wait


I have a large format mirrorless.... (5x7 glass plates)


----------



## tpatana (Jan 31, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> Crosswind said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to add a poll to this thread to see what people think about Canon's next mirrorless. APS-C sized or will Canon go FF for the first time? I'm curious. Can't wait
> ...



Mirrorless can do faster fps since they don't need to flap the mirror up and down. How much fps is that?


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 31, 2016)

tpatana said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Crosswind said:
> ...


It's about a frame every 10 minutes, but with only 4 plate holders I am burst limited.......


----------



## zim (Jan 31, 2016)

_"back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry"_



rrcphoto said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > OM1 :
> ...




Except we were talking about male jewellery, stop going OT and talking about photography ;D ;D


----------



## rrcphoto (Jan 31, 2016)

zim said:


> _"back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry"_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



bahaha.

I would love to see a T90 edition of an EOS-M.

go back to the birth of EOS.

and btw, it *IS* the 30 year anniversary of said camera.

go full blown retro and provide an EF-M to FD adapter as well as an EF-M to EF adapter.

as a matter of fact, make that an AF FD adapter.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 1, 2016)

Forget that old FD glass. Optimized for film, not well suited for digital sensors. 30 year old optical formulas, optical glass, optical performance. Just bury it together with the few retro-freaks who still have some of those old clunkers. And any T90 along with it.

Retro is evil. Why fill young wine into old tubes? Less functional than a truly digital camera with optimized UI including well-designed body shape and control points:
* fully articulated touch LCD screen
* 4k resolution 120Hz "Retina" EVF
* 1 mode dial with AvTvM and 3+ custom settings
* 1 multi-functional, non labelled dial in front
* 1 large thumb wheel in back
* 1 aperture/multi-function ring around lens mount (on body, not on lenses!)
* eye control AF-point selection in EVF
* 1 back button AF button
* no shoulder display
* WIFI plus elaborate, fully functional remote control APP instead of hard-threaded shuttor button for wire release (as on retro olympus and Fuji crap)
* no manual focus, only AF
* independently certified IP67 ingress protection (sealing)
* small body with grip large enough to hold and accomodate Li-battery with 700+ shots charge

All of it readily available and "already invented" at Canon. 
And please keep Luigi Colani away from any future Canon MILC. Choose a Dieter Rams-oriented design. 
Thanks, Canon


----------



## nhz (Feb 1, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> All of it readily available and "already invented" at Canon.


Yes, most of it available off the shelf (so not revolutionary at all). But in typical Canon fashion we are probably at EOS-M30 model before most of this is included ;-(

Question: is this because Canon wants to milk their customers to the max, or because the remaining customers resist change and don't want 'revolutionary' cameras?


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 1, 2016)

nhz said:


> Question: is this because Canon wants to milk their customers to the max, or because the *remaining customers* resist change and don't want 'revolutionary' cameras?



'Remaining customers'...in other words, the majority of ILC buyers in the world. :


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 1, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> * no manual focus, only AF



Bringing that request back, eh?

Why on earth would you want that?


----------



## Don Haines (Feb 1, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> Forget that old FD glass. Optimized for film, not well suited for digital sensors. 30 year old optical formulas, optical glass, optical performance. Just bury it together with the few retro-freaks who still have some of those old clunkers. And any T90 along with it.
> 
> Retro is evil. Why fill young wine into old tubes? Less functional than a truly digital camera with optimized UI including well-designed body shape and control points:
> * fully articulated touch LCD screen
> ...



pretty well agree with most of it, except for the no MF bit.....

Take your touchscreen and do a "fly by wire" MF..... that way you don't need the MF ring on the lens....


----------



## cosmopotter (Feb 1, 2016)

I'd like to see an extended EVF that looks sort of like medium format cameras - sticking Fortner out the back of the camera. I hate smashing my nose up against the back of my cameras and I use eyepiece extenders from Canon to help with this. Why not make it look like a hasselblad or some thing cool? Long instead of wide with a pistol grip.


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 1, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > * no manual focus, only AF
> ...



Simple to answer: 
1. have not used manual focus since 1987, when i bought my first (Minolta) AF SLR. I do not need a focus ring. And even if manual focus would be needed, it could easily be done on a MILC by wire - via camera touchscreen, no need for a focus ring on every lens. 
2. I prefer MILC lenses as compact, light and robust as possible. Meaning, no mechanical/moving parts, no focus ring, no iris aperture with mechanical blades, but rather "something electronic, translucent, variable diameter circular hole. 
3. I like good whetehersealing in my lenses. IP67 ingress protection would be much easier to achievewithout focus ring. 
4. cost and price advantage. Cheaper to design & build, lower price possible. Or otherwise same price, but money applied towards better optical perferomance.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 1, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



I doubt a focus ring drives cost so significantly that optics could be improved in a trade.

To each his own. It would be an instant dealbreaker for me. For landscape I use MF more than AF. In the studio I probably use them 50/50 (often frame with my intended focus out of the AF area).


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## AvTvM (Feb 1, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> I doubt a focus ring drives cost so significantly that optics could be improved in a trade.
> 
> To each his own. It would be an instant dealbreaker for me. For landscape I use MF more than AF. In the studio I probably use them 50/50 (often frame with my intended focus out of the AF area).



It's not only the ring, there's also a clutch mechanism and mechanical gears (* and often an AF/MF switch. 
(* unless it's focus by wire anyways ... e.g. EF 85/1.2. Instead of the "fake focus ring" one might as well set focus manually using the thumb wheel or front wheel on the camera body - if Canon implemented it that way. 

Especially for landscape when I usually have a lot of time. I put the AF field where I want the plane of focus in the frame and make sure the cam does focus on the image element I want in focus. Landscape usually cam on a tripod, and MF loupe @ 10x ... ideally it is a touchscreen [e.g. as on EOS M's] ... I really cannot see why I would want to fiddle with a focus ring. 

But of course everybody can take pictures as they please. I am not saying, ALL lenses should be "AF only". I'd just want those lenses I like for a MILC system to be available in an "AF only" version. ;D 
Especially pancakes ... think of EF-M 22 or EF 40/2.8 or EF 50/1.8 ... that dingy focus ring on the latter two is a poor joke anyways. Might as well leave it off. 

And zooms, where there is a zoom ring already. Although I'd also leave that one off and replace it with a ***really well implemented*** zoom lever on the camera body ... meaning, *incomparably better* than on a powershot or other cheap point and shoot ... sensitive to the touch, long enough adjustment range, nicely dampened movement, etc. - a linear motor drive [like STM] should be ideal for that.


----------



## Don Haines (Feb 1, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...


Personally, I have not used MF on a DSLR since lunch..... says Don as he finishes off his meal.....


----------



## 3kramd5 (Feb 1, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> It's not only the ring, there's also a clutch mechanism and mechanical gears



Sure, but I presume (with no basis, admittedly) that the focusing mechanism itself dwarfs the cost of linking a ring to it (weather sealing notwithstanding).


----------



## AvTvM (Feb 1, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > It's not only the ring, there's also a clutch mechanism and mechanical gears
> ...



No .. USM (or STM) AF drives are fairly beautiful and simple affairs. But adding manual focus with FTM capability to it [manual override of AF-chosen focus distance at any point in time] requires a rather tricky and elaborate differential mechanism. After all it takes Douglas Kerr - a very concise writer! - from page 7 to 12 of the following document just to describe it. 
http://dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/articles/Canon_USM.pdf

So if that MF stuff goes out, I'd fully expect a 15-20% price cut on AF-only lenses. Or correspondingly higher optical performance, if price stays the same but money is applied towards GLASS and coatings that deliver our images, rather than on intricate mechanical gear boxes. 


It may be pure mechanical genius, but I never use the largest portion of this stuff in my lenses and I neither want to carry it around all the time nor do I want to pay for it! Especially since I also have paid for an elaborate AF system in my camera and lenses. 





http://www.canon.co.uk/for_home/product_finder/cameras/ef_lenses/full-time_manual_focus.aspx


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 1, 2016)

Interesting. Well I would happily take that mechanism over the annoyance of having to affirmatively enable MF in orde to use it (with native lenses) or MF assist (with any lenses) on my mirrorless (which is the Sony implementation; hopefully canon would do better). Again, to each his own.

I'd like to use my fancy AF too, but when it fails (AF point sensitive to the wrong direction, or not available in the desired location, etc.) the simplest fix for me is to turn a wheel on the lens where my left hand is already sitting.


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## lw (Feb 2, 2016)

*New Canon Mirrorless in Q3/Q4 2016 - Aiming for #1 Says Canon*

The aim is mirror-less market a First Second place

"In the main products such as digital cameras and inkjet printers, tackle the realization and maintenance of the share number one. Mirrorless camera, now, even in this area where there is room for third place position. Still market expansion, single-lens reflex camera , as well as the compact digital camera declares, aiming for top market share. "

Here, the "promotion of step-up strategy" by the expansion and photography enthusiasts of training of entry layer, it's thought to be *addressed in the "middle machine, mirror-less machine, strengthening product competitiveness of the interchangeable lens."*

Canon Marketing Japan Imaging System Company, president Yagi Koichi Managing Executive Officer, "in the third quarter and fourth quarter of 2015, we have been able to ship a lot of mirror-less the number of cameras, not yet satisfied by For. At present* new products, but mention can not be, the third quarter in 2016, towards the fourth quarter* and that the "mirror-less market is forecast to grow, Canon's share of the" mirror-less camera market and two years ago the 4-position, we want to aim at the 3-position. By all means second place this year, last year. And, because second place, the middle of the goal. soon as possible moment, want to take the seat of the number one "and is all fired up

Canon Marketing Japan Shibasaki Hiroshi Director and Senior Managing Executive Officer, says it also "to implement an *aggressive sales promotion measures to tow the camera market with a focus on mirror-less camera*."

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fascii.jp%2Felem%2F000%2F001%2F112%2F1112509%2Findex-2.html&edit-text=


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## crashpc (Feb 3, 2016)

There is no space in which Canon does awesome camera


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## AvTvM (Feb 4, 2016)

While Canon is still mucking about with half-assed M's, Sony claims their A6000 to be "the best selling interchangeable lens camera - $600 and above ... in the industry" ... "MILCs and DSLRs". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDGnl5SHBzc&feature=youtu.be&t=616 ... around minute 6 ... and there are also some quite interesting market data charts around minute 3. 

Yes, I do take that statement with a grain of salt - made at a Sony marketing event by a Sony exec [Neal Manowitz, VP Digital Imaging, Consumer Sales and Marketing, North America]. And unfortunately they did NOT provide the number of units sold to date to back up their claim, and none of the folks in attendance had the wits or guts to ask for it [they should have invited me ]. 

BUT ... it may just be the truth ... and even it were not 100% correct, I'm convinced Canon could have sucked off at least half of all Sony A6000 sales, had they cared to introduce truly competitive EOS-M, M2 and M3 camera bodies. Lens-wise, Canon EF-M "starting line-up" is just fine. But all of the bodies are severely lacking. None with a built-in EVF, none with a competitive sensor, all with extremely bad to poor AF, low fps, very poor battery live.


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## nhz (Feb 4, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> BUT ... it may just be the truth ... and even it were not 100% correct, I'm convinced Canon could have sucked off at least half of all Sony A6000 sales, had they cared to introduce truly competitive EOS-M, M2 and M3 camera bodies. Lens-wise, Canon EF-M "starting line-up" is just fine. But all of the bodies are severely lacking. None with a built-in EVF, none with a competitive sensor, all with extremely bad to poor AF, low fps, very poor battery live.


I won't buy an A6300 because I don't like the lens line, but this camera indeed shows that EOS-M is a joke. Canon is SO far behind Sony in this area ...


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## rrcphoto (Feb 5, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> While Canon is still mucking about with half-assed M's, Sony claims their A6000 to be "the best selling interchangeable lens camera - $600 and above ... in the industry" ... "MILCs and DSLRs". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDGnl5SHBzc&feature=youtu.be&t=616 ... around minute 6 ... and there are also some quite interesting market data charts around minute 3.
> 
> Yes, I do take that statement with a grain of salt - made at a Sony marketing event by a Sony exec [Neal Manowitz, VP Digital Imaging, Consumer Sales and Marketing, North America]. And unfortunately they did NOT provide the number of units sold to date to back up their claim, and none of the folks in attendance had the wits or guts to ask for it [they should have invited me ].



I wonder if he meant in the USA?

I could see it, it has sold quite well, and canon and nikon replace their lower tiered items more frequently.

globally? I doubt it.


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