# 5D III and 300 2.8 II hit rate for sharp pictures very low



## Flo1111 (Dec 30, 2012)

Hello,

I have a 5d III and the 300mm 2.8 II.
According to test this combination should crate fantastic sharp photos, but I have really big problem that to get sharp pictures.

I normally use the center focus point as single focus point.
I realized that objets that are more than 10 - 15 meters away the hit rate is very low.
I did go through the AF menu from A-Z but I found no solution. AFMA made everything only worse.

I attached one picture of many, that are all no really sharp. ISO 100, 2.8 1/4000

Does anyone of you has similar problems. With my other lenses I never had such problems (70-200 2.8 II, 24-105 4, ...)

Thank you.

Best Regards,
Flo


----------



## AlanF (Dec 30, 2012)

There is a firmware upgrade for the lens that has to be done by Canon. My lens improved its focus reproducibility after the upgrade. The hit rate is now close to 100% on my 7D, and that includes using 1.4 and 2xTC IIs, shot with centre spot focus.


----------



## canon816 (Dec 30, 2012)

Use a smaller aperture as well. Your depth of field is extremely small at f2.8 with that lens. At ISO 100 if you are shooting at 1/4000 sec there is no need to shoot wide open. Assuming that that image is not cropped then your DOF on is only a couple of inches. If you shoot at f/7.1 or f/8 you would have more of the subject in sharper focus.

On a static subject like that to freeze motion and eliminate camera shake issues you really only need a SS of 1/500.

The firmware update is a good suggestion as well.


----------



## Sporgon (Dec 30, 2012)

Yikes ! I'd rather have been using a 500mm on a crop body with 2x extender


----------



## ZoeEnPhos (Dec 30, 2012)

Flo1111 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a 5d III and the 300mm 2.8 II.
> According to test this combination should crate fantastic sharp photos, but I have really big problem that to get sharp pictures.
> ...



Hello Flo!
Thank you for adding this one photo.
The quality of light seems to be mostly left-sided-front-light that gives less contrast to your exposure.
As also mentioned by an other forumposter the dept-of-field is really thin using a 300mm with wide-open f/2.8 on a full-frame-camera.
If you examine your photo you can follow WHERE the focus are locked - look at the cliff and the dry-vegetation and tree branches and grass.

If this was my photo I would have photographed it in .CR2 (RAW) and then doing sharpening in DPP and maybe making other adjustments in order to get a out the most of this photo of the "Lion-King!"
What I have experienced is that my .CR2-files directly from 5DMKIII are dramatically sharpened by simple small adjustments using Canons own DPP.
Maybe you could try to re-adjust your wild-life photographing!
Also how do you point your AUTOFOCUS and do you LOCK the focus for example on the eye of the animals?

Be sure that your focus-lock-point is absolutely placed on the critical area of your main subject in your exposure. And maybe also do a re-exposure even a as a second exposure of the same view in order to have your Keeper when you examine your files at home after your photo-sessions - the memory cards do have a lot of space today! 
Your equipement are really really high-quality and should not make you disappointed!
How about a calibration-check at the Canon´s own service for both your DSLR with the particular lens together and yes to upgrade the lens to its latest updated firm-ware!
I really wish you Flo the very best solution for your excellent combination of equipement!

Happy New Year 2013!

All the Best!
/Charl


----------



## East Wind Photography (Dec 30, 2012)

First thing you need to do is get your lens and camera up to the latest firmware. The lens has to be sent back to canon for the fw upgrade but I would say its mandatory. The image does look like the camera has front focused quite a bit. The front face of the rock seems pretty good. Overall I agree with others that a little post sharpening in DPP or photoshop would fix this image right up. At ISO 100 you can sharpen quite a bit and lot lose IQ.

Regarding DOF, that lens should be tack sharp wide open regardless. Stopping down some can help mask focus errors. Camera AF systems have improved but accuracy is not 100%. When you can stop down a little, do it to improve your keeper rate. I still have to shoot 6 shots or so and pick the sharpest one out of the batch.

Regardless of that the image here should be much more in focus. Send the camera and lens back to canon and let them iron it out. For those of us that are nit picky about focus there is a great tool called Reikan FoCal which will allow you to do your own focus calibration. I use it with all of my lenses and it works quite well. The pro version gives you nice charts and reports as well as the ability to run aperture sharpness tests so you will know at what aperture produces the highest resolution.

You have a great set up. I'm sure the fw fix will take care of the problem as it addresses some AF issues.



Flo1111 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a 5d III and the 300mm 2.8 II.
> According to test this combination should crate fantastic sharp photos, but I have really big problem that to get sharp pictures.
> ...


----------



## Flo1111 (Dec 30, 2012)

Thank you AlanF. I have already the update to Firmware 1.1.1. 
On the 5D III I also have the newest firmware 1.1.3 too.

@ZoeEnPhos. Thank you very very much for so many useful hints and suggestions.

Just for your information:
I did do today several test shots just out of my windows (open window). With tripod, with out tripod (deactivated IS) and with f2.8 or f5.6 or f8.
But only 1 of 10 shots in Lightroom with 1:1 or 2:1 did look fine for me. f5.6 or f8 did not improve anything.
I hope you can still recognize that the photo 7006 is much sharper than the 7018.
I would say from 60 tries 5 0r 6 are like 7006 the other are like 7018.
---- forgot, the focus was in the middle on the black ground part with the letters.

Perhaps it is really my own fault. :-[

On the other side I am lucky, because I have two Canon service center in the city  where I can let check the lens and the cam.

Thank you very much for your help and happy new year to you all.
Flo


----------



## Flo1111 (Dec 30, 2012)

@East Wind Photography. thank you very much for your advices.

I am really happy about the great help here in the forum . Thank you. 

Bye
Flo


----------



## neuroanatomist (Dec 30, 2012)

Flo1111 said:


> AFMA made everything only worse.



How did you perform AFMA?


----------



## infared (Dec 30, 2012)

This is ALL great advise East Wind for Flo. You covered it all and I bet there is a solution within your suggestions.
For those that are suggesting that Flo stop down his aperture that is certainly not warranted for this image if all equipment is operating correctly and the focus point is on the lion's head...
Having to stop down defeats the purpose of spending all of that money on a 2.8 lens in the first place?
This shot should be fine at 2.8 at this distance with a sharp subject an the rest of the image going soft, calling your attention to the king!



East Wind Photography said:


> First thing you need to do is get your lens and camera up to the latest firmware. The lens has to be sent back to canon for the fw upgrade but I would say its mandatory. The image does look like the camera has front focused quite a bit. The front face of the rock seems pretty good. Overall I agree with others that a little post sharpening in DPP or photoshop would fix this image right up. At ISO 100 you can sharpen quite a bit and lot lose IQ.
> 
> Regarding DOF, that lens should be tack sharp wide open regardless. Stopping down some can help mask focus errors. Camera AF systems have improved but accuracy is not 100%. When you can stop down a little, do it to improve your keeper rate. I still have to shoot 6 shots or so and pick the sharpest one out of the batch.
> 
> ...


----------



## bjd (Dec 30, 2012)

*Re: 5D III and *** 70-200 F2.8 II hit rate for sharp pictures very low too *

Hi,
I'd like to hijack this thread. I have the same problem IMHO with a 5D MKIII and a 70-200 F2:8 L IS II USM that I just bought. I have the feeling that I never get the sharpness that I expected when using AF so this may be just a problem of mine. I've posted a few times on CR about my problems, so I wanted some feedback before sending the Camera and Lens to Canon for checking out
I shot about 100 pics using AI Servo today of my Dog Dave, and our lodger Timmy. Most of them the dogs were walking slowly or trotting, so no high speed motion. Light was good, and I guessed that 1/500th should do, and I was using Timer priority. Spot metering. Using Case 1 AF as the dogs are pretty predictable. Zone AF.
As I had the same problems yesterday I did an AFMA on the lens yesterday evening, but I saw no improvement today. 
As stated here already, I too expect this lens to perform OK at 2.8. 
FW was at 1.1.2 for these pictures, but I just updated to 1.1.3 just in case. 
So looking at this example IMHO I still have a serious back-focus problem on this lens.
Anything else wrong with my setting?

Cheers Brian


----------



## neuroanatomist (Dec 30, 2012)

Shipping body and lens to Canon will be expensive (meaning shipping + insurance on $10K of gear, the service would be free). Before taking that step, I'd definitely try a proper AFMA, assuming you haven't done one (by 'proper' I mean Reikan FoCal, LensAlign, SpyderLensCal, not a DIY setup or taking random shots then tweaking the setting and trying again). The lion shot looks front focused, as does the 'soft' shot from your window. My interpretation is that the sharp shot from your window is actually a miss on correct focus, not a hit, according to the AF system. Phase AF isn't perfect - depending on the subject features, contrast, and lighting, a 10% rate of misses is not unreasonable. That percent is higher on lower end bodies, lower on the 1-series, but misses do occur. With a properly calibrated system, the average of a whole bunch of shots is right at the correct focal plane. In your case, the average (your 54-55 shots) is centered away from the correct focal plane, and an occasional miss randomly hits correct focus. That's the situation that AFMA is designed to correct. But again, a proper AFMA method is required.


----------



## AlanF (Dec 30, 2012)

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-3a-canon-lenses
The above link reports tests of the 300mm f/2.8 II on the 5D III as part of a larger series of very interesting measurements. That combo should be superb. What is the focus like in live view and in live view plus manual?


----------



## dlleno (Dec 31, 2012)

canon816 said:


> Use a smaller aperture as well. Your depth of field is extremely small at f2.8 with that lens. At ISO 100 if you are shooting at 1/4000 sec there is no need to shoot wide open. Assuming that that image is not cropped then your DOF on is only a couple of inches. If you shoot at f/7.1 or f/8 you would have more of the subject in sharper focus.
> 
> On a static subject like that to freeze motion and eliminate camera shake issues you really only need a SS of 1/500.
> 
> The firmware update is a good suggestion as well.



Good comments here but just to b precise, the dof wide open at 10meters distance is about 7 inches using a dof calculator. No room for error, to be sure.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Dec 31, 2012)

What's interesting is I've shot 300 f/2.8L I IS with a 5D Mark III and 1DX at f/2.8 and it never missed focus during fast action sports. I think there might be something really wrong here.


----------



## Flo1111 (Dec 31, 2012)

Good morning,

Yes you are all right I did not use professional tools for the AFMA.

I put a wooden foot rule on the floor. The lens on a tripod, about 3 meters away. DOF was about 1 cm.
Now I did focus on one line e.g. at 20 centimeter. 
In that situation I did realize that the focus was behind, the picture was more sharp at 21cm. (I did not only focus once, but several times. I alway but something in between and focused on that after wards again on the foot ruler. The cam and the foot ruler I never did move)

After about two or three hours and amy photos I though I am ready. The AFMA for that lens was at -20. (the maximum)
I already was very surprised, because only at the far end the dash for the 20cm was really sharp.

After that I also download on test graphic from http://www.the-digital-picture.com, which was mentioned here in the forum.
Put the graphic on the wall and straight to it the lens. But now everything was completely unsharp. Also for real photos that setting was not correct. So I set everything back to 0.
It just does not fit together. :-(

I think I should buy the Software mentioned here and give it a try.

By the way. The test photos that I posted here from my window, the the solar system is about 40 meters away, what should give me a DOF of 2,5 meters. In my opinion I should get 9 from 10 photos very sharp.

Thank you.
Bye
Flo


----------



## AlanF (Dec 31, 2012)

Two big mistakes here. First, Canon recommends you test focus at a distance of 50 times focal length between lens and target (ie 15 m for a 300 mm lens). Second, if you use a home made rig, then the target should be vertical and perpendicular to the lens, and the ruler placed along side it at say an angle of 15 degrees. Then focus on the target, not on the ruler and note which line on the ruler is sharpest. I do the test by having a black line on a sheet of white paper pasted on a cornflakes box or similar and propping a ruler next to it at the same height as my camera on its tripod. Try that. 

Being an obsessive scientist, I plot the mean of each series of measurements at a particular MA value versus the MA value and draw a line through them to read off the graph where the MA value gives the right focus. But that is not necessary.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Dec 31, 2012)

Flo1111 said:


> I put a wooden foot rule on the floor. The lens on a tripod, about 3 meters away. DOF was about 1 cm.
> Now I did focus on one line e.g. at 20 centimeter.



If I had $1 for every time I've read about someone using that 'method' I'd probably have a 300/2.8 II to go along with my 600/4 II. 

Here's the thing - the AF system is going to lock onto the feature of highest contrast at the correct orientation under the selected AF point. Note that the actual AF point is larger than the little box representing it in the VF (even with Spot AF, it's still slightly larger, although you should not use Spot AF for AFMA). So, *you* know that you intended to focus on the thin 20cm mark running horizontally, but your camera saw the higher-contrast feature running vertically across the point - the edge of the ruler. That feature extends away from the camera, and anywhere along that edge would be 'correct' for the AF system. No wonder your AFMA 'made things worse'. That's why the commercial tools use a flat target oriented parallel to the image plane. Also, you were far too close - AFMA should be done at 25-50x the focal length of the lens. 

The best test to see if AFMA is the solution is what AlanF alluded to a few posts back - set up on a tripod, with a flat, high contrast target (a sheet of newspaper taped to a wall, for example). Activate Live View, and take several shots using Live AF each time (not Quick AF - you should not hear the mirror flip during AF, you want to be using contrast detect AF where the CMOS image sensor is used to focus). Then, turn off Live View and take several shots with 'normal' (phase detect) AF. If the Live View shots are sharp and the regular AF shots are not, AFMA should fix that (and I really do recommend Reikan FoCal, in that case). If the Live View shots are soft, it's likely a problem with the lens, probably meaning a trip to Canon Service. 

Hope that helps...


----------



## rpt (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: 5D III and *** 70-200 F2.8 II hit rate for sharp pictures very low too *



bjd said:


> Hi,
> I'd like to hijack this thread. I have the same problem IMHO with a 5D MKIII and a 70-200 F2:8 L IS II USM that I just bought. I have the feeling that I never get the sharpness that I expected when using AF so this may be just a problem of mine. I've posted a few times on CR about my problems, so I wanted some feedback before sending the Camera and Lens to Canon for checking out
> I shot about 100 pics using AI Servo today of my Dog Dave, and our lodger Timmy. Most of them the dogs were walking slowly or trotting, so no high speed motion. Light was good, and I guessed that 1/500th should do, and I was using Timer priority. Spot metering. Using Case 1 AF as the dogs are pretty predictable. Zone AF.
> As I had the same problems yesterday I did an AFMA on the lens yesterday evening, but I saw no improvement today.
> ...


Yes, it seems to be back focused. How did you AFMA it? I have had major errors during AFMA and was frustrated but they all turned out to be user error - tripod not stable and bad lighting... Once those were fixed, no issues. I use FoCal on my 5D3.


----------



## Flo1111 (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi AlanF
Hi John,

got it. I made everything wrong what I could do wrong.
John I did read again your article http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Photography-Tips/AF-Microadjustment-Tips.aspx

Ok so I will try now the live view / normal AF comparison.
I will us the the png file from your article

Thank you again very much for your help.

Bye
Flo


----------



## bjd (Dec 31, 2012)

Interesting infos about the 1DX Firmware.

You can download the software from the Canon website here.

Firmware Version 1.0.6 incorporates the following fixes.

1. Fixes a phenomenon in which the AF Microadjustment cannot be correctly carried out.

2. Fixes a phenomenon such that when using the camera with combinations of certain lens*1) and extender*2), the images captured become back-focused.

*1) EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM or EF200mm f/2L IS USM
*2) Extender EF 1.4x III or Extender EF 2x III

IIRC up till now almost everything concerning AF on the 1Dx also applied to the 5D3.
Been playing with Focal all morning without any improvements.
Cheers Brian


----------



## rpt (Dec 31, 2012)

bjd said:


> Interesting infos about the 1DX Firmware.
> 
> You can download the software from the Canon website here.
> 
> ...


What firmware version are you on? The site lists 1.1.1 as the latest version...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Dec 31, 2012)

I think his point was that the 5DIII may have the same problem, which was fixed for the 1DX but not for the 5DIII.


----------



## rpt (Dec 31, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> I think his point was that the 5DIII may have the same problem, which was fixed for the 1DX but not for the 5DIII.


Right! I don't have those lenses nor the extenders...


----------



## bjd (Dec 31, 2012)

rpt said:


> bjd said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting infos about the 1DX Firmware.
> ...


Neuroanatomist is correct in what I meant. 
I'm on 1.1.3 (the latest for the 5D3) now. 
Also I wonder if they really can be certain that the problem does not occur on other lenses too? 
So, yes, I'm hoping for a new 5D3 FW too sometime.
Cheers Brian


----------



## rpt (Dec 31, 2012)

bjd said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > bjd said:
> ...


I have not had any issue with my 24-105, 40mm, 100L macro or the 100-400L.


----------



## revup67 (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi BJD - I had read this article on AI Servo settings a few days ago wanting to get even more in focus BIF shots. That 5DM3 has a lot of options for tweaking AI Servo. If you've not gone through these setings (all 6 cases with 3 settings on each) then this article may help you:

http://www.garyluhm.net/bio/tips_0512.html


----------



## Flo1111 (Jan 2, 2013)

Hello neuroanatomist,

I did do the normal AF, live view comparison and the life view pictures where alway sharp the normal AF photos something between.

I did do it in that way. Pu the graphic on the wall with some additional light and about 7-8 meter away, on the same level, the lens on a tripod. (Thats the longest distance that I could find.)

So it seems that AFMA could help me out.
I think I will buy FoCal.
What version would I need? Plus or Pro. What would you suggest?

@bjd yes you are right it could be, but Canon would never tell anything. Perhaps in April everything will be better.

Thank you very much.
Bye Flo


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 2, 2013)

I have the Pro version, but the Plus would be fine for the 5DIII. I do like the additional tests with the Pro version (testing all the AF points, etc.).


----------



## mingyuansung (Jan 2, 2013)

Flo1111. Please let us know the result if you ever bring your camera and lens to Canon Service Center. I really want to know if they can help. By the way, which center you are going to? Thanks.


----------



## bjd (Jan 2, 2013)

revup67 said:


> Hi BJD - I had read this article on AI Servo settings a few days ago wanting to get even more in focus BIF shots. That 5DM3 has a lot of options for tweaking AI Servo. If you've not gone through these setings (all 6 cases with 3 settings on each) then this article may help you:
> 
> http://www.garyluhm.net/bio/tips_0512.html



Hey Rev, that a very good guide. Thanks for the heads-up. I'll be trying out some of the tips ASAP.
Cheers Brian


----------



## RustyTheGeek (Jan 2, 2013)

Flo1111 said:


> Hi AlanF
> Hi John,
> 
> got it. I made everything wrong what I could do wrong.
> ...



I really have to say that the AFMA article by *nuero* is very well done. Thanks for that!


----------



## bjd (Jan 7, 2013)

revup67 said:


> Hi BJD - I had read this article on AI Servo settings a few days ago wanting to get even more in focus BIF shots. That 5DM3 has a lot of options for tweaking AI Servo. If you've not gone through these setings (all 6 cases with 3 settings on each) then this article may help you:
> 
> http://www.garyluhm.net/bio/tips_0512.html


So, my problem is sorted, at least partially. I saw that all shots at 70mm were pretty sharp and all at 200mm were back focussed. So I took out the AFMA and it was immediately better. I just cannot seem to get any consistent results with Focal at the moment. I only have one place in the house where I can get far enough away from the target, and natural light is very dull at the moment so I intend to try again with Focal as soon as we have a sunny day. 
Next thing is to check that I am getting the Camera to focus where I want it to!
Cheers Brian

Here a new example at 200mm.


----------



## al2 (Jan 8, 2013)

The AFMA setting is dependent on distance. If your shot was at a significantly different distance than what you used to make the AFMA adjustment the focus could be visibly wrong. With a zoom lens not only do you have to account for the change in focal length, you also might have to allow for a change in distance.


----------

