# No 1Ds Mark IV in 2011? [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Dec 21, 2010)

```
<strong>Really?</strong>

I was talking with a regular source and all indications heâ€™s receiving is that there will be no 1Ds Mark IV or replacement of the 1Ds Mark III in 2011.</p>
<p>There is going to be a very big departure in the high end from Canon.</p>
<p><strong>CRâ€™s Take</strong>

The 5D Mark II took from the 1Ds3 market in a lot of cases (not all). A replacement of the 5D Mark II would do the same if they kept the status quo for a 1Ds4 upgrade.</p>
<p>I hope to hear more soon.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong>
```


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## kubelik (Dec 21, 2010)

sounds like something big is going to happen to the canon lineup in 2011... let's hope that something big is something good


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## Etienne (Dec 21, 2010)

Just don't get cheap with the 5DIII .... I'm hoping Canon makes my decision easy. 5DII is very good, I hope the 5DIII is awesome.


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## c.d.embrey (Dec 21, 2010)

On the Nikon side, people like Thom Hogan are expecting a complete replacement of their Pro Cameras - D400. D800 and D4. If these new Nikons are as good as the D7000, Canon is in trouble - it's that simple.

A 16 megapixel D800 will be awesome, Seems like Nikon has been listening to Canon owners.


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## Gothmoth (Dec 21, 2010)

now what "departure" means?

im from germany and my english sux... but departure sound to me like "to hell with the pro sector we focus on the consumer".

but i donÂ´t think that will happen.


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## traveller (Dec 21, 2010)

If you extrapolate the increases in processing power for each Digic generation, dual Digic V processors should be capable of coping with a 24MP sensor at 10fps (assuming there are no other issues preventing this). In theory, this could allow Canon to combine the 1D and 1Ds lines into a single model that is both high resolution and high speed; the pixel density would be slightly lower than the current 1D Mk4. Given recent improvements in read-out noise levels, demonstrated by what Nikon and Pentax have done with the 16MP Sony APS-C sensor, it should be possible to achieve very adequate (if not quite D3s) levels of noise on a Full Frame sensor. 

I'm not saying that this is likely, Canon will be loathed to allow Sony/Nikon to gain the resolution high ground (assuming the rumours of a >30MP Sony Full Frame sensor in the pipeline are true), I'm just suggesting what is possible. Of course, there is always the possibility that a breakthrough technology is what is causing the delayed release dates... Then anything is possible. 

What all this would mean for a 5D MkIII is further baseless speculation. Rumours, don't we all love them!


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## olav (Dec 21, 2010)

Maybe this means Canon tries something new like a foveon type sensor.
Or something equally new for Canon.


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## Lawliet (Dec 21, 2010)

c.d.embrey said:


> A 16 megapixel D800 will be awesome, Seems like Nikon has been listening to Canon owners.



If you put the pixels from a 1D4 onto a FF-Sensor you'd end up with a ~30MP(give me a weaker AA-Filter instead of that extra 20% pixelcount  ) camera that comes with really nice high ISO and considering moore's law enough power to keep the 10fps. Wouldn't be to bad for a high end.

OTOH if one thinks of focal plane phase detection AF - no more blackout and associated delay times or AF adjustments, no limiting mechanics. Crop down to APS-H or use enough readout channels/good binning patterns - 60fps at 4k resolution or 120fps at HD while retaining full AF would be imaginable.
Just a pipe dream, but it would make the 1D(s) split obsolete.


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## x-vision (Dec 21, 2010)

Gothmoth said:


> now what "departure" means?



I believe this means no 1D-1Ds combo anymore.

The 1DV will be a 24-30mp full frame camera capable of 8-10fps. 
With these specs, it will be an update to both the 1DsIII and 1DIV. 
It will have to be priced below $6K because of the upcoming Nikon D4. 

Canon will still have an $8-10K studio camera with very high resolution (50mp) and likely 4K video. 
This studio/hybrid camera, however, will not be a 1DV with just a different sensor (the 1D-1Ds fomula will not work well in the era of high-resolution/high-speed bodies). 

Previous rumors suggested a modular camera, which is very likely. 
Something like the RED maybe. Or maybe a medium format type of body. 

We shall see.


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## niko (Dec 21, 2010)

x-vision said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > now what "departure" means?
> ...



I agree. The strategy of putting different sensors in the same body, and charging several thousand more will not work anymore. More tangible improvements are needed - e.g., modular body, larger sensor (square?), 4K video (or RAW, although I don't think we will see this in the next iteration and/or in a full frame package).

These of course would be in addition to the expected superb high ISO performance


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## anthony11 (Dec 21, 2010)

Gothmoth said:


> now what "departure" means?
> 
> im from germany and my english sux... but departure sound to me like "to hell with the pro sector we focus on the consumer".
> 
> but i donÂ´t think that will happen.



Your English is at least as good as that of many people who live here


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## hsmeets (Dec 22, 2010)

No 1DsIV in 2011 could well mark the end of an short lived era of quick/fast updates and improvements we quickly got used to. Maybe Canon needs more time to earn back the investment (given current ecomic climate) on the mkIII and maybe also thinks that a next generation is not compelling enough that people will upgrade because of the offering but will only upgrade if their current camera has reached it's economic/physical end-of-life.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 22, 2010)

c.d.embrey said:


> Seems like Nikon has been listening to Canon owners.



Hmmmm...ok, then maybe the converse is true. What have Nikon owners been asking for that Nikon isn't giving them?


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## bvukich (Dec 22, 2010)

neuroanatomist said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > Seems like Nikon has been listening to Canon owners.
> ...



Megapixels? A naming/numbering scheme that makes sense?


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## kubelik (Dec 22, 2010)

bvukich said:


> A naming/numbering scheme that makes sense?



;D so true ... not that it's a reason to stay away from nikons, but it's a silly thing to have such a convoluted and undecipherable product numbering system

we can add to that list video implementation. cheaper lenses. AF across all bodies and lenses, none of this screw-driven BS. and form factors that don't look like they were created by someone with with a major gundam fetish.

but in general ... I do have to say nikons definitely look nicer on paper (and with the new sensor in the D7000 they look better printed too I'd think). that said, I don't rely on my camera for a living (thankfully) so I'm perfectly happy with what I've got


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## c.d.embrey (Dec 22, 2010)

bvukich said:


> Megapixels?


The Nikon D3x is 24 megapixel, Canon 1Ds lll is 21 megapixel.



> A naming/numbering scheme that makes sense?



What's so hard to understand?

D3s = 1D lV *Pro Body* sports camera

D3x = 1DS lV *Pro Body* studio camera

D700 = 5D ll Full frame *Small Body*

D300 = 7D Crop Frame *Small Body*

D7000 = 60D *Consumer Camera*

Most contributors to Canon Forums keep asking for *better low light capability*, not *more megapixels.* Which is why I said that Nikon is paying attention to Canon users, and is delivering what they want!


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## bvukich (Dec 22, 2010)

kubelik said:


> AF across all bodies and lenses, none of this screw-driven BS.



+1

You need a secret decoder ring to figure out what lenses work with which bodies.


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## niko (Dec 22, 2010)

c.d.embrey said:


> Most contributors to Canon Forums keep asking for *better low light capability*, not *more megapixels.
> * Which is why I said that Nikon is paying attention to Canon users, and is delivering what they want!



Grass seems to be always greener on the other side, however Canon and Nikon are not that far apart on high ISO performance - Nikon has an edge of about 2/3 - 1 stop (FX), especially when pixel peeping at 100% (or more) on a PC screen. When printing images at the same size, any perceived advantages become minimal to non-existent.

(is this considered stirring the bees' nest? )


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## Bob Howland (Dec 22, 2010)

niko said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > Most contributors to Canon Forums keep asking for *better low light capability*, not *more megapixels.
> ...



Is that true even at ISO51,200? Which brings up the question, what FF Canon does ISO51,200? The 1DMk4 is a joke at that ISO and an even more pathetic joke at ISO102K


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## niko (Dec 22, 2010)

Bob Howland said:


> niko said:
> 
> 
> > c.d.embrey said:
> ...



The highest ISO that Canon offers in FF is 25600 which is in line with Nikon's 51200 (ergo the ~1 stop Nikon advantage), although I would put any ISO over Nikon D3s 12800 in the pathetic (or very close to) category.


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## Bob Howland (Dec 22, 2010)

niko said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > niko said:
> ...



If going to ISO51200 is the only way to get the shot, even with a 1DMk4, then I guess that it isn't so pathetic. Anyway, what happened to the "minimal to non-existent" perceived advantages when printing images of the same size?


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## niko (Dec 22, 2010)

Bob Howland said:


> niko said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Howland said:
> ...



Of course, you've been let down and understandably your disappointment in Canon is immeasurable for depriving you of the numerous opportunities to photograph black cats in a completely unlit back alleys with your Canon FF at ISO 51200-102400.

Let me also add that my Canon camera should be able to track the subject (e.g., black cat) and provide a perfectly in focus sequence of shots at 10+ fps.


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## unfocused (Dec 22, 2010)

This exchange over ISO 51,200 and above is simultaneously funny and ridiculous. Seriously now, if I'm doing the math right, does someone consider it "pathetic" that images shot at seven stops faster than Tri-X have noise. Surely you are kidding.

Tri-X = 400 ISO
800 ISO = +1 stop
1,600 ISO = + 2 stops
3,200 ISO = + 3 stops
6,400 ISO = +4 stops
12,800 ISO = +5 stops
25,600 ISO = +6 stops
51,200 = +7 stops


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## niko (Dec 22, 2010)

unfocused said:


> This exchange over ISO 51,200 and above is simultaneously funny and ridiculous. Seriously now, if I'm doing the math right, does someone consider it "pathetic" that images shot at seven stops faster than Tri-X have noise. Surely you are kidding.
> 
> Tri-X = 400 ISO
> 800 ISO = +1 stop
> ...



Perhaps a better way to express the images taken at super high ISO is borderline (usable/unusable).


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## Bob Howland (Dec 23, 2010)

niko said:


> Of course, you've been let down and understandably your disappointment in Canon is immeasurable for depriving you of the numerous opportunities to photograph black cats in a completely unlit back alleys with your Canon FF at ISO 51200-102400.
> 
> Let me also add that my Canon camera should be able to track the subject (e.g., black cat) and provide a perfectly in focus sequence of shots at 10+ fps.



Actually, they were yuletide reenactors at a local historical village/museum, in rooms typically lit by 3 candles. A typical exposure was 1/15 sec, f/1.4, ISO3200. I want publication quality ISO51200 so that I can use f/2.8 zooms and go to 1/60 sec.

I wonder if Canon regrets not making the 5DMk2 a 14MP, 5FPS Lord of Darkness camera, good enough to compete with the D3/D700/D3s at these high ISOs, instead of introducing the camera that killed the 1Ds3. I bought my 5D five years ago because, at the time, it was the best low light camera out there.


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## kubelik (Dec 23, 2010)

Bob Howland said:


> I wonder if Canon regrets not making the 5DMk2 a 14MP, 5FPS Lord of Darkness camera



I don't think you'll ever hear anyone in senior leadership at Canon using the words "regret" and "5D Mark II" in the same sentence. probably the one of the best balances of sales volume and net profit that they've had in the digital era.

I'm amused by the perception that we're entitled to be able to take pictures of anything we want to. I mean, I want publication quality ISO 51200, I want f/2.8 supertelephotos that weigh as much as the 400 f/5.6 so I can hike with a 500mm lens, I want my 16-35 to have 8-stop IS so I can take landscape photos without a tripod ... this list goes on.


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## Lawliet (Dec 23, 2010)

niko said:


> The highest ISO that Canon offers in FF is 25600 which is in line with Nikon's 51200 (ergo the ~1 stop Nikon advantage), although I would put any ISO over Nikon D3s 12800 in the pathetic (or very close to) category.



Good thing the 1D4 is a crop camera that allows for a wider aperture at a given composition.
Or doesn't loose a stop to a TC when used at the longest focal lengths.

OTOH one could argue whether such circumstances shouldn't be taken as in invitation to explore expressionism. Our eyes have their limits, too!


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## Bob Howland (Dec 23, 2010)

kubelik said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if Canon regrets not making the 5DMk2 a 14MP, 5FPS Lord of Darkness camera
> ...



I have also seen it argued that the 5DMk2 is a loss leader. I don't think that the 5D damaged sales of the 1Ds2 and 1Ds3 nearly as much as the 5D2 did and using a 14-16MP sensor in the 5D2 and emphasizing high ISO image quality would have put some separation between it and the 1Ds3. Certainly, based on reports from various photography stores, the 1DsMk3 isn't selling very well. Canon can't be very happy about that.

Concerning your second paragraph, based on your definition of "publication quality", the output of the D3s is already there.


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## kubelik (Dec 23, 2010)

bob, I agree they can't be excited about the die-off in 1Ds Mark III sales ... but to me that's more a question of them not having adequately spec'd the 1-series, rather than anything the 5-series did wrong. it's certainly a gut check moment (or year, or few years); I've stated before that I don't think canon's policy of minimal incremental performance increases is sustainable business.

nikon does have a significant sensor quality advantage right now and I hope that canon will remedy the situation in the new cameras coming in 2011. at the same time, I think they can do so while maintaining their current pixel densities and I hope that canon will be able to strike that balance.


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## macfly (Dec 23, 2010)

All this talk is of no new high end camera from Canon, and the evidence of the total lack of sales (and supply) of the 1Ds Mklll, does seem to point to the end of the era of the 35mm style pro still camera. The market has spoken, and Canon have listed. Video and streaming content are the new rage, pro-sumers want their video and vimeo, and seemingly lower pixel counts stills. They have no interest in making exhibition sized prints, online distribution and sharing is the new king. 

I will be interested to see what this big departure for Canon is, but my guess remains that it'll be a head on Red competitor. I suspect that the very few of us who either need or want super large still image files may never find it in the 35mm form factor, which personally I find a great shame. I really love using the EOS line, having worked with it since 1991, it would be my absolute first choice on any given day. 

That 120MP chip they showed with Canon cine quality lenses is my idea of heaven, and I'd take out a second mortgage to get that system if they made it, but there's maybe only a couple of hundred of us in the world who feel that way, so developing such a thing is not what you'd call good business sense.


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## unfocused (Dec 23, 2010)

macfly said:


> so developing such a thing is not what you'd call good business sense.



I'm always an optimist, so I hope that Canon does not completely abandon the commercial pros. 

I still think Canon may be trying to gauge the market and determine if they can meet the demand with one body, or whether they need to split into two niche bodies. I'm repeating myself from other posts, but I think the needs of studio pros and news/sports pros are fairly distinct. 

You need high resolution and excellent dynamic range. The news/sports market needs manageable file sizes, fast frame rates and reach. Those specs are not completely exclusive of one another, just a case of where the emphasis is. Seems like a question Canon may be wrestling with is whether or not they can design a single body that meets the needs of everyone or whether they are better off with two different bodies, each targeted to their individual markets. 

I could see a single 1Ds-type body that offers different choices in file size for different shooters. Smaller files for news and sports and larger files for studio work. Virtual zoom that crops the image size to 1.6 or smaller when extra reach is needed and allows full frame when maximum resolution is needed. Some things that only Canon knows: what's the total size of the market, how price-sensitive is the market, is it more costly to build a single body that does it all, or to produce a couple different models each targeted to specific segments.

From what you've said before, I'm guessing that a 5D with slightly better build, improved autofocus, improved dynamic range and a pixel-density in the same range as the 7D (If I recall from previous threads, the 7D sensor works out to somewhere in the 40-50 mp range on a full frame) would not be all that far off from what you need. (At least until the 120 mp sensor comes out). Canon may be spec-ing out their options to determine if a "5D on Steroids" would be a better market decision than a new 1Ds.


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## RuneL (Dec 27, 2010)

I really don't care whether they drop the 1Ds or not, I hope they won't but really, I don't care. It'll be a monumentally stupid decision, IMO, but as long as they keep updating the 1D I'm fine. I'm loving my 1D IV and it's the first since the 1D II that's actually worth the money, I think, the III was sort of disappointing. 

The IV is still a relatively new camera, they might put off the 1Ds a while still, it needs to be pretty bloody good.


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## macfly (Dec 29, 2010)

This is an absolute must watch, this is what Canon are up against!

http://tonacitran.com/red-epic-camera-top-ten-questions-reducation-promo-ted-schilowitz-tonaci-tran/


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## Bob Howland (Dec 29, 2010)

macfly said:


> This is an absolute must watch, this is what Canon are up against!
> 
> http://tonacitran.com/red-epic-camera-top-ten-questions-reducation-promo-ted-schilowitz-tonaci-tran/



That is an absolutely amazing camera but a few things need to be pointed out. First, it's only 14MP and the image is very oblong. Second, my guess is that the demonstrated system topped $15,000, which probably takes it out of the let's-blow-it-up disposable camera range. The price goes up from there. Third, one of the problems that I'm having with my Panasonic TM700 consumer camcorder is learning to zoom smoothly and slowly. It looked like the lens on his camera was the 24-70 f/2.8, which is manual zoom. Camcorders like the Canon XF100/105/300/305 solve this by having non-removable wide range power zoom lenses and giving the operators lots of control over focusing speed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people who are excited about the possibility of leveraging their investment in still lenses into video production may be very surprised, perhaps unpleasantly, at how different a full blown APS-C/APS-H/FF video camera is from their still camera.


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## macfly (Dec 29, 2010)

Indeed Bob, but it shows where things are headed, and also how Canon can stay one step ahead if they so choose. 

The Red's stills ability is more of an 'also ran', it is obviously first and formost a system camera for serious film makers rather than the Vimeo market. I'd suggest that the x4 & x5 video will be a crucial form factor in the prosumer market soon enough, and if Canon wants its convergence cameras to remain relevant, it'll have to scale up to those standards.


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