# Help with an unusual macro setup



## bob s (Feb 9, 2015)

I am hoping to make a low power microscope (40-50x) using a quality camera and lens. 
Using a 22 inch computer monitor, I need to get a live display feed at 1920×1080 of what the camera is seeing. I will use a 1:1 macro lens and I am hoping that I can use a digital zoom produced by the camera to gain an a extra 3-4x of magnification. 

What I am not sure about is what cameras (if any) can provide this live view AND allow a 3-4x digital zoom (at 1920×1080 ). I also don’t want any of the cameras menus on the computer screen and 30 fps is a minimum.

I have been waiting for the 50mp cameras to come out as this will buy me an extra mag level but now, I can’t find out if the new cameras, or any camera for that matter, will work in my application.

Any help would be very appreciated.


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## tolusina (Feb 9, 2015)

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=camera%20tethering


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## IMG_0001 (Feb 10, 2015)

Canon mpe 65 - 5x max magnification
Canon 5d S - 8688 px / 1920 px screen résolution - 4.5 x
Total magnification of about 22.5 x. That is pretty much it I think.

And then, you can be sure that any slightest vibration will make your images blurred so a very sturdy mount for the camera and subject would be required. And you'll need lots of light. By then, you'll have spent enough you may want to have a look at a real microscope. I think Olympus has some good and relatively inexpensive camera to be mounted on microscope columns or eye piece. You may be able to find a used microscope and adapt one of those units.

Macro and micro are not the same. 

Good luck.


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## Tinky (Feb 10, 2015)

A lot of the EOS cameras don't pump out full hd video via hdmi in record mode. I know my 7D does, I know the 5D3 does, I'm not sure about any others.

Some of the rebels let you do a digital zoom, obviously the projection size depends on the size of your monitor.. 1080 displayed on 22" is the very same 1080 that can hold up on a 50" screen...

Point of absolute sheer bloody minded pedantry. If you are using a macro lens set to 1:1 then this is the magnification ratio. It's an optical definition, which for some applications is critically important. Sensor cropping, Digital zoom or post cropping is not the same thing.

Can you be a little more specific about the application?

Other practical considerations come into play.. your depth of field will be tiny, a problem if your subject is moving or you need decent depth of field, a tilt shift like the 45ts-e or 90 ts-e may actually be the better tool for the job.


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## bob s (Feb 10, 2015)

To be more specific...The camera will be mounted on a linear motor driven slide with a travel length of ~550mm and use the Canon 100mm macro lens. 

Maximum magnification on a 22" monitor, will be (assuming I use the EOS 5dS) would be ~ x59. This comes form the fact that the 5ds has a pixel size of 4.14um and the pixel size on a HD 22 inch monitor is 246um (473mm monitor width divided by 1920). Again, I will only get this magnification if the chosen camera can produce a Live digital zoom with at at least 30FPS. To reduce my magnification, the camera moves away from my subject on the slide. For a full frame camera I can reduce the magnification down to ~ 4x (depending on the slide length). This total range is just about perfect for what I want. If I have to use a APS-C sensor such as the EOS 7D mark II, I will need a longer slide to get down to the same low magnification range but the x59 would be the same. 

So my questions remains, what cameras might provide a live tethered digital zoom at a reasonable frame rate? I also don't care if the camera does not have live digital zoom providing it can send the PC the full sensor resolution at a reasonable frame rate. I just assumed that this much bandwidth may not be possible. But perhaps it is on these new cameras? Its too bad Canon doesn't do a much better job specifying these sort of information.

Thanks for the replies


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## Tinky (Feb 11, 2015)

Thats an enlargement ratio, not a magnification ratio. The lens will be 1:1 at most. Less if you shift focus as the camera moves.

Use the Magic Lantern firmware to give clean HDMI out with the 5D3. 

You could use a 7D with a shorter lens, like the EF-s 60 or Sigma 70mm.


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## IMG_0001 (Feb 11, 2015)

IMG_0001 said:


> Canon mpe 65 - 5x max magnification
> Canon 5d S - 8688 px / 1920 px screen résolution - 4.5 x
> Total magnification of about 22.5 x. That is pretty much it I think.
> 
> ...



What was I thinking, it is absolutely obvious that the screen resolution thing only means looking at a 100% crop of your image. It does not give you any more magnification. A 5ds might resolve fine details at a given magnification than lower resolution full frames, but then aps-c cameras have similar pixel size so it might not be worth it.

Also, it seems just as obvious to me that a bigger screen does not provide more magnification, but only makes pixels bigger without providing more details.

Please excuse my erroneous and misleading earlier post.


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## Tinky (Feb 11, 2015)

the max output from any of the cameras in live view mode is going to be 1920x1080.
on the rebels and most x0d series it drops to something like 480*540 during recording.

the 650 and the eos m have digital zooming, but again I would be unsure of the output resolution via hdmi, it will be standard def during recording.

is there a reason you are restricting yourself to a 22"?

with lcds so cheap these days a 27 & 32" wouldn't be all that much more, and 1080 will still look very detailed on these sizes, even fairly close up.

If you want 1080 live view and 1080 recording, you are looking at a 7d or 5d3 at the very keast.


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## bob s (Feb 11, 2015)

Industrial Inspection cameras (what I am trying to build) uses a “standard “ that incorporates a 22” monitor at 1920x1080 to specify its “magnification” level. 

These dedicated industrial cameras can cost $5K or more! I would rather put that same cost into a camera that will provide much better images and can also be used for many other applications.

From Tinky’s post, it appears the 7d or 5d3 should work (although the FPS is still unknown). If there are any further comments on cameras that have Digital zoom and live view at 1920x1080 that might also work or work best , please let me know. 

Thanks again


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## kirispupis (Feb 11, 2015)

You can do what you are looking to do, but I do not believe a 100mm macro will give you the magnification you need. You need to attach a microscope objective to your camera. Due to the magnification from the sensor + crop, I do not believe you need a 50x objective. The following equipment should get you very close.

Canon 7D2 - Most objectives will vignette heavily at FF anyways and the camera will outresolve the objective. The 5DS would be a complete waste. The 7D2 will do the job.
Nikon 10x 10.5 WD Plan Achromat - You can find these for ~$250 and they should provide the magnification you need.
Canon 200/2.8 II - This is the prime, not the zoom. It is the only Canon lens I know of that does not require extensions to get the full frame of view when attached to the objective.
Adapters and step down tubes to go from the 200/2.8 to the objective

Finally you'll need something to raise and lower the camera in very small increments. It sounds like you already have an idea here, but a Stackshot may also be useful.


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## Tinky (Feb 11, 2015)

bob s said:


> Industrial Inspection cameras (what I am trying to build) uses a “standard “ that incorporates a 22” monitor at 1920x1080 to specify its “magnification” level.
> 
> These dedicated industrial cameras can cost $5K or more! I would rather put that same cost into a camera that will provide much better images and can also be used for many other applications.
> 
> ...



The frame rate will be selectable between either 24fps and 29.97fps(ntsc mode) or 24 and 25fps (PAL) 

Be very careful of your understanding of magnification as an optical term. A 50" screen shall enlarge more than a22", but the optical magnification from the lens is the same in both cases. 

An MPE lens can go higher, and some bellows lenses can go higher yet. 1:1' x:1 1:x describes the size of the subject depicted in the image circle at the sensor plane. It makes no comment at all on eventual projection size or indeed sensor size.


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## Halfrack (Feb 11, 2015)

Are you looking for still images or video you can grab frames from? I understand the workstation is doing Live View, but what is the end result?

Industrial inspection rigs are tuned to work for days on end, and most digital cameras can't handle hours upon hours of live view - the sensor will heat up too much and you get burnt pixels. How much use will this camera actually get? You may be better looking at a video camera than a dslr.


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## Busted Knuckles (Feb 11, 2015)

Seems like you are going a LONG way around the block.

A T3i video out would be all that you need from a body standpoint - slightly less enlargement/magnification.

You could load magic lantern to give you some extra features, but it already does the 1920x1080 output 3x, 10x "digital zoom" , ML will bring it down to the precise 1920/1080 pixel out that your are looking for.

Good luck


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## NancyP (Feb 11, 2015)

You could go even cheaper with some adapters, a bellows, a decent old enlarger lens. The stand and the fixation of camera to stand are going to be the expensive items, unless you are a talented and resourceful DIYer.


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## Tinky (Feb 11, 2015)

Busted Knuckles said:


> Seems like you are going a LONG way around the block.
> 
> A T3i video out would be all that you need from a body standpoint - slightly less enlargement/magnification.
> 
> ...



T3 is 720p not 1080p

T3 output drops to sd when you hit record with T3 (if you need a record)

T3 has limited control over video settings such as exposure

'magnification' stays the same, thats an effect of the lens not the camera.

The effect of the sensor crop enlarges the subject within the frame compared to 5D (so more, not less enlargement)


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## bob s (Feb 12, 2015)

Thanks for all the great responses! 

This rig will see very infrequent use. I run a small electronics design shop and I need to work on circuit boards (with very small components) from time to time (no more than an hour at a time a few times a week). In addition to the "live mode" I also need to take quality photos to send my customers. 

Being a small shop I try to buy very diverse tools to cover a range of uses. The industrial cameras I have looked at (~5k) work "reasonably" well for live use but do a poor job at taking quality photos ( in my opinion). I also have some interest in perhaps automating a X stage to take 3D stacked photos of some circuit boards. The X and Y stages will both use stepping motors. The electronics are easy as I can design and build what I need. 

What is truly a big motivator is I should have some fun making up the rig, get far better performance than a quasi- "off the shelf" system (at less cost) and end up with a great camera to boot for non work related fun.


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## IMG_0001 (Feb 17, 2015)

Apart from the ruggedness of industrial camera and the fact they are designed for continuous usage, I would expect they would often use smaller sensors, which would help for depth of field. You may find it hard to have a sufficient depth of field on full frame. I'm also unsure if the increased resolution from the latest sensors would not be wasted to diffraction considering you may have to stop down a lot for depth of field requirements. I understand that electronic boards might not be that deep to start with, yet I'd be wary.

But then, if you want that toy and can't find another way of justifying it, anything goes...


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