# Pentax to use Sony Sensor in Full Frame Camera



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 29, 2015)

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Pentax is set to announce their first full frame DSLR by the end of 2015, and the latest suggests that Pentax will use Sony’s current 36mp full frame sensor. The camera will apparently also have a high resolution shooting mode, a feature that appears in the brand new APS-C Pentax K-3II.</p>
<blockquote><p>The K-3 II is the first camera in the PENTAX line to incorporate Pixel Shift Resolution® for capturing still life subjects with ultra-high resolving power. Pixel shift technology uses the camera’s in-body Shake Reduction mechanism to move the image sensor at single pixel increments, capture 4 separate images, which are subsequently combined into a single high definition image. Benefits include higher resolving power, reduced false color and improved overall image quality of non-moving subjects.</p></blockquote>
<p>This could turn out to be a very interesting full frame option from Pentax.</p>
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## Aglet (May 30, 2015)

I've collected a lot of very good FF Pentax lenses, waiting for a FF digital body to use them on. As, I'm sure, have many others who enjoy the Pentax way of shooting.
Sony sensor with pixel shift will make it a wickedly capable imager, hopefully with a good AF system on it too.
Pentax rarely holds back on features too so this will be a welcome addition to their crop bodies.


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## Marsu42 (May 30, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> Pixel shift technology uses the camera’s in-body Shake Reduction mechanism to move the image sensor at single pixel increments



Amazing, this is indeed something ground-breaking.

It has been argued that Canon could do the same even with their in-lens IS systems by adding additional shifting to their sensor, but of course with IBIS it can be done just like that just *by software* and maybe some minor hardware changes.

For this system to work nothing moving can be in the picture, but from dr discussions we Canon shooters know that bracketing works most of the time and you don't need to capture all in one frame at one time, so I take it this new Sonikon tech will make potential 5ds customers reconsider.

Edit: bold part was a typo


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## Sporgon (May 30, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Canon Rumors said:
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> > Pixel shift technology uses the camera’s in-body Shake Reduction mechanism to move the image sensor at single pixel increments
> ...



It's good to see Pentax innovating with something that genuinely could give an IQ benefit, but the camera really will have to be on a rock steady platform for this to work well.


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## Sporgon (May 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Sporgon said:
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> > Marsu42 said:
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Oh dear, dilbert. 

Since when has a lightweight tripod that weights less than the camera been rock steady ?


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## neuroanatomist (May 30, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Canon Rumors said:
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> > Pixel shift technology uses the camera’s in-body Shake Reduction mechanism to move the image sensor at single pixel increments
> ...



Well...it was groundbreaking when Zeiss did something similar in their line of microscope cameras...about 13 years ago. 

But definitely a cool technology!


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## jd7 (May 30, 2015)

Doesn't this pixel shift technology sound pretty much like what olympus already has in one of its m4/3 cameras?

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-e-m5-ii/olympus-e-m5-iiTECH2.HTM


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## old-pr-pix (May 30, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Marsu42 said:
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Or, Hasselblad with their H4D-200 6-shot version or Olympus with the 8-shot version on the OMD E-M5II.

As to rock solid tripods for dilbert's benefit... just use live view at max. magnification and it's easy to see how "unsolid" most tripods actually are. 

My concern is whether the IS of lenses more than a couple years old is really tuned to be compatible with newer high resolution sensors? I'm guessing that using IS in those lenses may actually degrade the potential of the body. Obviously whether the optics are up to the task is also of interest.


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## neuroanatomist (May 30, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> Oh dear, dilbert.
> 
> Since when has a lightweight tripod that weights less than the camera been rock steady ?



Since when have facts and reality made an appearance in dilbertland?


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## Keith_Reeder (May 30, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Those rock steady platforms are generally known as tripods. Have you ever seen one of those?



Plus a rock-steady subject, of course - which immediately renders the whole idea utterly bloody irrelevantly useless to the vast majority of photographers...

Do you actually _take_ photos, Dilbert? I have my doubts...


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## Marsu42 (May 30, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Marsu42 said:
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I never thought this is actually "new" tech, but imho it's groundbreaking to apply this to a mainstream ff camera. If I understand correctly, that gives you 4*36=144 mp in one shot? If they produce high quality raw files and not some jpeg or compressed crap, imho this system a clear winner ... and as a Canon exec, I'd really wonder how to counter this w/o IBIS.


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## Sporgon (May 30, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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As I understand this Pentax are using the multiple pixel exposures to improve colour definition, that is overcoming the limitations of the bayer array sensor, and there is a side effect of improved resolution due to better definition. Olympus are using the technique to simply increase resolution. I think the Pentax idea is the better of the two.

However the 50 mp Canon sensor will also go a long way to overcoming the colour definition of the bayer array by shear density of recording site (pixels). Similar to a modern APS but with the benefit of greater magnification, so the results will be more pronounced.


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## drjlo (May 30, 2015)

Canon Rumors said:


> Pentax will use Sony’s current 36mp full frame sensor. The camera will apparently also have a high resolution shooting mode



Having been hauling around A7r with cumbersome lens adapter for Canon lenses yet thoroughly enjoying the Sony 36MP sensor, leaving my 5DIII home, I would have been delighted if this news was for Canon 5D IV or 6D II :'(


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## neuroanatomist (May 30, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> If I understand correctly, that gives you 4*36=144 mp in one shot? If they produce high quality raw files and not some jpeg or compressed crap, imho this system a clear winner ... and as a Canon exec, I'd really wonder how to counter this w/o IBIS.



I'm not sure about that. It might give a 144 MP file, but if so that's a lot of empty resolution. If the sensor is translated in one-pixel increments, then each pixel is sampling the same spatial area four times – but it's still the same spatial area. Each spatial area would be sampled through all three color masks, meaning no interpolation and thus increased color resolution. Actually only three images are needed for that, but two exposures through green may fit existing algorithms better. 

The Zeiss system used full pixel moves to eliminate color interpolation (the sensor actually moved while the Bayer mask remained fixed). They also used _sub-_pixel moves to increase real spatial resolution – but that only works if the sensor doesn't have microlenses. 

Very stable setup, completely static subjects? I doubt Canon is particularly worried.


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## Marsu42 (May 31, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
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> > If I understand correctly, that gives you 4*36=144 mp in one shot? If they produce high quality raw files and not some jpeg or compressed crap, imho this system a clear winner ... and as a Canon exec, I'd really wonder how to counter this w/o IBIS.
> ...



Thanks for elaborating, that's very interesting! It's easy to forget (for me  that a (modern) dslr sensor doesn't simply use "pixels" and shifting isn't that easy. 

I'm really keen to see how the real world resolution and iq of this sensor shifting with a common dslr sensor will be - if it works somewhat, I guess we'll see it applied in a lot of dslrs with IBIS from Sony & Pentax and the lot. 

What appeals to me is that it seems to be a "freebie" done mostly by software, and even arguably shooting the same static subject without shifting is rumored to have some potential to raise spatial resolution for some patterns. If I could have done my ol' mushroom macro shots with this instead of plain 18mp, oh my...



neuroanatomist said:


> Very stable setup, completely static subjects? I doubt Canon is particularly worried.



I imagine for architecture (inodoors and outdoors) and some landscape, this is a common scenario?

Sure, Canon demonstrated that they aren't worried about high-mp competition with the d800 or they could have designed an upscaled crop 5ds-type anytime in the past, but surely still there is some market share there. But on the other hand there are medium format sensors, too, for this, so probably Pentax will end up in the amateur, and not the "pro" market.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 31, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Marsu42 said:
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I bought a video digitizer in the 1990's from egghead (remember them?). It took advantage of the slight movement from frame to frame using a low resolution video camcorder. I could get a 1024 X 768 still image after lots of slow processing. The technology has been used in lots of places, even MF cameras. Its neat, but hardly groundbreaking or even close to new.


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## Aglet (May 31, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Very stable setup, completely static subjects? I doubt Canon is particularly worried.



I agree, any animal shot in the studio will not show a benefit.
but for a completely still life scene, product shot, this will make the shifty 36MP about equal or slightly better than 51MP. Plus it may have the added benefit of greater DR, lower read noise on top of that.

Hopefully the Pentax FF arrives at a compellingly lower price point to muddy the market for Canon. 

The apparent improvement in IQ with full color/pixel sampling is not to be dismissed. And, altho only useful in niche scenarios, this is a nice feature to have available. No moire, be happy. 

If you check the IR page with all the comparison shots, it's obvious this gimmick has its uses, much like the gimmick of a high end TS or 5x mag macro lens.

www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/pentax-k3-ii/pentax-k3-iiTECH2.HTM

way back and space probes used mono sensors with separate color filters, which is possibly why the aliens looked green, they didn't wait around for the full set of filters to expose. ;D


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## neuroanatomist (May 31, 2015)

Aglet said:


> If you check the IR page with all the comparison shots, it's obvious this gimmick has its uses, much like the gimmick of a high end TS or 5x mag macro lens.



I've found this 'gimmick' very useful in photomicroscopy applications for well over a decade (and I did my own comparison shots when the technology was more novel). 

My point is that like a TS or 5x macro lens, it's a niche application. Useful for some individuals, but not something Canon execs are going to lose sleep over.


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## Aglet (Jun 1, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Aglet said:
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> > If you check the IR page with all the comparison shots, it's obvious this gimmick has its uses, much like the gimmick of a high end TS or 5x mag macro lens.
> ...



Indeed, 51MP is a lot of detail, even when bayered, and that'll provide a huge boost to a lot of shooters.
but it'll be nice to have the shifty option available on a few other mfrs' products, just for fun.
I was tempted to get the Oly EM52 but a FF with 36 MP & shift will be a much more compelling option.


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