# Update on the Canon USA vs Grey Market Retailers Legal Action



## Canon Rumors Guy (Dec 6, 2015)

```
According to Photography Bay, Canon USA has filed an amended complaint against F&E Trading (BigValueInc, Electronic Valley & Others).</p>
<p>Photography Bay explains the amended complaint:</p>
<blockquote><p>In its Amended Complaint, Canon USA doesn’t really add on any additional egregious actions, but rather takes aim at pinning the alleged misconduct on Albert Houllou, who appears to be the principal owner/operator of F & E Trading.</p>
<p>As someone who used to practice corporate law, I can tell you that it is always a big win to get an individual (typically an owner or executive) on the hook for the wrongdoing (aka “piercing the corporate veil”). This allows the plaintiff (<em>e.g.</em>, Canon USA) to hold a person (not just a company) personally liable for the wrongdoing. If you can get at a person’s assets, then you can apply a whole lot more pressure in settlement negotiations or drive them into bankruptcy.</p></blockquote>
<p>According to Photography Bay, the following YouTube video is being cited by Canon USA as proof that Albert Houllou is the controlling party for all of the companies’ actions.</p>
<p><iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/i1i-R563tdg" width="728" height="409" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe></p>
<p><a href="http://www.photographybay.com/2015/12/06/canon-v-gray-market-retailers-lawsuits-update/" target="_blank">Read the full breakdown</a> and view the amended complaint at Photography Bay.</p>
```


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 7, 2015)

If Albert is not smart, that may soon be the case as well.


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## takesome1 (Dec 7, 2015)

dilbert said:


> There's a reply on photography bay that says:
> 
> _I think global prices should be much more equal (without taxes) and local government’s should do more to tax imports in such a way so there’s no gain in buying gray imports. This is a fair way for everyone to be on an even playing field._
> 
> Indeed. Canon USA has created this problem with the introduction of MAP but also, Canon has this problem globally because (for example) cameras are cheaper in the USA than in the UK.



So the US government should raise taxes to match the UK's?

There are already laws to make sure the tax man collects his share when bring things through customs. 
You can be sure the tax man will get his share. Adding taxes to balance prices is .....idiotic.


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## Valvebounce (Dec 7, 2015)

Hi takesome1. 
I think the implication is that if Canon sold the cameras for the same price wherever they were headed, then the local government be that UK, USA, India etc made sure that individuals and grey market importers were taxed the same as the main importer (which I'm sure is their aim) then the grey market would be far less attractive. The camera would still be dearer in the UK than the USA as our taxes and levies are higher, but it would not be worth the hassle and warranty risk to save a much smaller amount. 

Cheers, Graham. 



takesome1 said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > There's a reply on photography bay that says:
> ...


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## takesome1 (Dec 7, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi takesome1.
> I think the implication is that if Canon sold the cameras for the same price wherever they were headed, then the local government be that UK, USA, India etc made sure that individuals and grey market importers were taxed the same as the main importer (which I'm sure is their aim) then the grey market would be far less attractive. The camera would still be dearer in the UK than the USA as our taxes and levies are higher, but it would not be worth the hassle and warranty risk to save a much smaller amount.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.
> ...



It sounds like your premise is that the grey market pay different taxes. I doubt that is thee case.

Although the same mentality that works to bring grey market items would also work to game the import system.


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## PureClassA (Dec 7, 2015)

Your first reaction should not be "Well, government should...." No. Secondly Im still confused by this whole thing. I need to read up on it more. Why can't Canon USA simply just refuse warranty covered service for products not purchased through authorized dealers? Yes, they will still repair it, but it wont be free (under warranty). What the heck am I missing here? Wasnt the issue with Canon USA losing money repairing grey market stuff under warranty? Just stop.


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## beforeEos Camaras (Dec 7, 2015)

dilbert said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



really you want to pay more? I do all my buying at a brick and mortar store yes Dilbert full retail plus a 7% tax I could cross state line to newhamshire and pay zero tax but how dose that help my state with its taxes? in the uk you got a higher price plus vat its not the same


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## takesome1 (Dec 7, 2015)

PureClassA said:


> What the heck am I missing here? Wasnt the issue with Canon USA losing money repairing grey market stuff under warranty?



But they do not stop. You bought a Canon product and they stand behind it. Otherwise they get the reputation of not taking care their product. I know of no one that they refused a repair because of grey market, it would be bad business.

What you mention is one of the reason for the law. By controlling the supply chain Canon can control their warranty process as well. They can put a structure in place to protect their reputation by fixing products that need warranty. The grey market suppliers undermine Canon's warranty structure to make a few dollars.


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## takesome1 (Dec 7, 2015)

beforeEos Camaras said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...



I do not know which idea is more idiotic. 
Raise the taxes to match.
Or raise the prices to all be the same so people pay more.


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## Chaitanya (Dec 7, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi takesome1.
> I think the implication is that if Canon sold the cameras for the same price wherever they were headed, then the local government be that UK, USA, India etc made sure that individuals and grey market importers were taxed the same as the main importer (which I'm sure is their aim) then the grey market would be far less attractive. The camera would still be dearer in the UK than the USA as our taxes and levies are higher, but it would not be worth the hassle and warranty risk to save a much smaller amount.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.
> ...



Prices of Canon(also Nikon, and Tamron) camera products in India are exactly the same as that of US which has made grey market products here unattractive option. Also the prices are low even after the fact that India also has tax structure similar to UK.


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## Talley (Dec 7, 2015)

I read somewhere that Bigvalue/Getitdigital all buy from adorama/BHphotovideo etc and that is the reason they are coming w/ USA warranty cards.... They buy so much they get deep discounts and then they split the kits up and sell the lens separate and the camera body separate.

Really if they are not authorized dealers then how can Canon even go after them?

Also... thats a ton of money in that warehouse eek.


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## unfocused (Dec 7, 2015)

dilbert said:


> There's a reply on photography bay that says:
> 
> _I think global prices should be much more equal (without taxes)..._


_

The cost of the physical product is only one expense. Without having access to their books it is impossible to know how much of the price differential can be traced to differences in regional costs. Canon Europe has to pay local labor, advertising, distribution, repair, local taxes on their facilities, rent or purchase cost for those facilities, etc. etc. etc. Higher prices in Europe may, to some degree, reflect higher expenses._


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## unfocused (Dec 7, 2015)

Talley said:


> I read somewhere that Bigvalue/Getitdigital all buy from adorama/BHphotovideo etc and that is the reason they are coming w/ USA warranty cards.... They buy so much they get deep discounts and then they split the kits up and sell the lens separate and the camera body separate.
> 
> Really if they are not authorized dealers then how can Canon even go after them?
> 
> Also... thats a ton of money in that warehouse eek.



Apples and oranges. Some authorized dealers do sell excess inventory to unauthorized dealers, who in turn sell the product below MAP. Those products came into the U.S. Legitimately and the wholesale cost reflects Canon USAs costs.

That's not what this lawsuit is about. Canon is specifically targeting grey market dealers who circumvent the U.S. Distribution chain and then freeload on the Canon USA Infrastructure. Two different issues.


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## Roo (Dec 7, 2015)

If the video is correct, then it seems that F&E Trading are direct importing and I'm guessing Canon USA couldn't get remedy under the parallel import laws with CBP so they've gone it alone in the litigation.

http://www.inta.org/Advocacy/Documents/INTA%20Trademark%20Owners%20Guide%20to%20Parallel%20Imports%20in%20the%20United%20States.pdf


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## AvTvM (Dec 7, 2015)

If Canon were to spend as much attention and resources on improving their sensor tech as they are on litigious action, they would sell many more cameras with better sensors and IQ than any competitor ... and make much more money than by going after a few direct importers.


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## dash2k8 (Dec 7, 2015)

But Canon already has the top sales in DSLR cameras by a large margin so I'm sure they don't care about saving money on lawsuits in order to sell "many more cameras."

As for the warranty thing, Canon still repairs broken parts but charges a fee just for taking in the item. The cost of parts and labor also go up exponentially. I remember a piece of rubber stopper on the side of the 1Ds3 cost $15USD. The thing was 1cm x 0.75cm.


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## Khufu (Dec 7, 2015)

Okay, I just want to throw some bits into the mix. Not a direct reply to peoples posts but, first off, a bit of "consumer perspective":

I bought my 5D3 for £1800, not £3400. 
The latter was the UK Street Price at the time at 'Jessops', the standard go-to place for photography goods. The former price is what I paid, via bank transfer and avoiding PayPal/Transaction fees. I challenge you all to look at those above figures, do all the mathamaticising you please, and NOT come up with the answer "wtf?"

I don't really see what the debate here is. Corporations like Canon are simply trying to milk the market(s) for every penny they can, as a good Capitalist pimp does. They're in a pissy because globalisation isn't all on their terms, or not just yet, it isn't. They've got scary lawyers and 21st Century Orwellian culture on their side so I'm sure it'll all work out peachy!

What appears to me to be the issue for Canon is simply that the values of various economies and territories aren't on level playing fields and we're all able to peek over the fence much easier now... They'll figure it out; bigger fences, scarier security guards, larger trolls and taxes to cross the bridges, whatever...

But really... £1800 or £3400? Yeah, warranty invalidity threats really kept me up all night on that one. 

Ps. No, I don't think taxes come close to being a part of this debate.


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## Valvebounce (Dec 7, 2015)

Hi takesome1. 
I'm really not naive enough to think that grey market items attract less taxes than legitimately imported items, though I do suspect that there are loopholes that grey market importers may exploit, also they often only have a warehouse somewhere (which may be in a development area here in the UK which will afford all sorts of rebates on local taxes) not a high street shop which attracts severe local taxes! 
I really don't know the solution, I know it is not in taxing things to the same price point. 
It might start with Canon looking at the source of the grey market, but then Canon are selling all the items and getting their wholesale income so why care about regional suppliers seems like the problem here. 

Cheers, Graham. 



takesome1 said:


> It sounds like your premise is that the grey market pay different taxes. I doubt that is thee case.
> 
> Although the same mentality that works to bring grey market items would also work to game the import system.


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## martti (Dec 7, 2015)

As far as I have understood, Canon is perfectly capable of running its business and taking care of their part of the deal. If consumers get products at better prices despite the game they play, I see nothing wrong with it. 
We take care of our money, they take care of theirs. Should we the consumers start defending the rights of a huge international company? Even the thought of it makes me chuckle...


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## Tony5787 (Dec 7, 2015)

Talley said:


> I read somewhere that Bigvalue/Getitdigital all buy from adorama/BHphotovideo etc and that is the reason they are coming w/ USA warranty cards.... They buy so much they get deep discounts and then they split the kits up and sell the lens separate and the camera body separate.
> 
> Really if they are not authorized dealers then how can Canon even go after them?
> 
> Also... thats a ton of money in that warehouse eek.



I'm not sure about their US model items but I ordered a 7D Mark II that's imported and I was told that they import directly through Canon International. Of course my camera matches Canon's claims that they're counterfeitting serial numbers on the cameras as my camera's physical number is way off from the one in the EXIF data so that seems doubtful. I have no idea why they do this but it's really shady. Trying to return the item has been the biggest pain too because the lawsuit came out like two days after my 30 day return policy expired. Thank god for PayPal and their 180 day policy.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 7, 2015)

unfocused said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > There's a reply on photography bay that says:
> ...


_

To that point, warranties are longer by law in the EU, meaning a higher average service cost. Also, it's worth noting that vendor pricing in the EU includes taxes (VAT), whereas US list prices do not include sales taxes._


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## jeffa4444 (Dec 7, 2015)

Its difficult to cry for companies like Canon even though I love their products. When it suits them they can offer sometimes huge discounts for instance this past weekend one official UK dealer was selling the Canon 7DMKII with a free Canon Pixma Pro 100 and the mail in rebate (so was B&H). These types of rebate show just how much margin they are playing with. 
Apple in particular are masters at hiding behind "local taxes" to inflate prices even if you strip out VAT and "overhead variance" its easy to see Apple inflate prices in the UK compared to the US but at least Apple keep a WW waranty Canon its not so clear.


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## tron (Dec 7, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> If Canon were to spend as much attention and resources on improving their sensor tech as they are on litigious action, they would sell many more cameras with better sensors and IQ than any competitor ... and make much more money than by going after a few direct importers.


+1000000000


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## tr573 (Dec 7, 2015)

martti said:


> As far as I have understood, Canon is perfectly capable of running its business and taking care of their part of the deal. If consumers get products at better prices despite the game they play, I see nothing wrong with it.
> We take care of our money, they take care of theirs. Should we the consumers start defending the rights of a huge international company? Even the thought of it makes me chuckle...



It's such a hilariously american thing to do (defending the rights of gigantic companies) , like Canon cares one iota about you and your budget.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 7, 2015)

dilbert said:


> There's a reply on photography bay that says:
> 
> _I think global prices should be much more equal (without taxes) and local government’s should do more to tax imports in such a way so there’s no gain in buying gray imports. This is a fair way for everyone to be on an even playing field._
> 
> Indeed. Canon USA has created this problem with the introduction of MAP but also, Canon has this problem globally because (for example) cameras are cheaper in the USA than in the UK.



Governments should stay out of this type of squabble. Why should a government protect a company from itself? What you are basically suggesting is the same as a fixed world wide currency, but its not likely to happen. Just look at the issues in Greece. 

Canon can fix the issue without any help from the government by merely adjusting prices. They can raise prices where they have artificially lowered prices, expecting other parts of the world to support sales to those countries. 

Prices are higher in the USA than in many parts of the world, that's why the issue exists. Prices are even higher in the UK, which is why so many are able to import grey market cameras from Hong Kong.


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## Mikehit (Dec 7, 2015)

> It's such a hilariously american thing to do (defending the rights of gigantic companies) , like Canon cares one iota about you and your budget.



I didn't see martii defending anything - he simply stated a fact that Canon can take care of their own affairs. Too many people confuse a desire to understand as being the same as sympathy or (worse) complicity. 
Companies charge what customers will pay - pure and simple. What amazes me is people who complain about the price of a luxury item and still pay for it. If people did what their common sense told them to do (i.e. not buy it) that is what the companies care about and the price would soon drop to its natural level.


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## grainier (Dec 7, 2015)

beforeEos Camaras said:


> really you want to pay more? I do all my buying at a brick and mortar store yes Dilbert full retail plus a 7% tax I could cross state line to newhamshire and pay zero tax but how dose that help my state with its taxes? in the uk you got a higher price plus vat its not the same



Some would say you can help your state (MA I assume) by voting for politicians not quite so eager to tax and spend.


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## grainier (Dec 7, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> I do not know which idea is more idiotic.
> Raise the taxes to match.
> Or raise the prices to all be the same so people pay more.



Both stink of communism.


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## Luds34 (Dec 7, 2015)

Talley said:


> I read somewhere that Bigvalue/Getitdigital all buy from adorama/BHphotovideo etc and that is the reason they are coming w/ USA warranty cards.... They buy so much they get deep discounts and then they split the kits up and sell the lens separate and the camera body separate.
> 
> Really if they are not authorized dealers then how can Canon even go after them?
> 
> Also... thats a ton of money in that warehouse eek.



Yep, the three camera body only purchases I've done from BVI, etc. have all been kits where they separated out the lens. However, all of mine were clearly imports. So while I don't doubt they pick up legit USA models in bulk from time to time, I'm guessing a majority of their product is imported.


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## Mikehit (Dec 7, 2015)

> Prices are higher in the USA than in many parts of the world, that's why the issue exists. Prices are even higher in the UK, which is why so many are able to import grey market cameras from Hong Kong.


Actually many electronic goods are pretty comparable in US and UK because of the impact of internet buying:
5D3 - Amazon US = 2,500 USD (price without tax)
Amazon UK = 2,000 GBP = 1,667 GBP before tax
2,500 USD on today's exchange rate is 1,670 GBP.

Price in Hong Kong 18,300 HKD = 1,600 GBP
So define 'higher' 

FWIW, there is a whole load of internet buying between states in the US precisely because of the differences in local taxes.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 7, 2015)

Mikehit said:


> FWIW, there is a whole load of internet buying between states in the US precisely because of the differences in local taxes.



Of course, most states have a Sales *and Use* Tax, which means while out of state sellers are not obligated to collect tax on behalf of the buyer and remit it to the buyer's resident state, buyers are themselves legally obligated to pay taxes to their state on purchases made from out of state sellers that are intended for use in the buyer's home state.


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## tr573 (Dec 7, 2015)

Mikehit said:


> > It's such a hilariously american thing to do (defending the rights of gigantic companies) , like Canon cares one iota about you and your budget.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was agreeing with Martii - not disagreeing. There are many out there commenting on the articles about this situation about how we are driving poor Canon USA out of business with our shady gray market purchasing.

Canon has an objective in the game - maximize shareholder revenue
Governments have an objective in the game - maximize tax revenue
I have an objective in the game - minimize my outlay

Not everyone can win, but I'm sure as hell not going to play for the other team.


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## Khufu (Dec 7, 2015)

Mikehit said:


> > Prices are higher in the USA than in many parts of the world, that's why the issue exists. Prices are even higher in the UK, which is why so many are able to import grey market cameras from Hong Kong.
> 
> 
> Actually many electronic goods are pretty comparable in US and UK because of the impact of internet buying:
> ...



Mmmmnope. I'm reluctant to go name-dropping suppliers incase Canon UK are watching  ...but the 5D3 is currently £1443 delivered to my UK door within days from HK.

...or £2000 from Amazon UK (your quote, I've not checked)

Alternatively I can have:
5DSr @ £2013
5DS @ £1928
5D3 w/ f/4L zooms @ £1855 or £1799

I know which my absolute last choice would be!


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## AvTvM (Dec 7, 2015)

+1

Full ack!





Khufu said:


> Okay, I just want to throw some bits into the mix. Not a direct reply to peoples posts but, first off, a bit of "consumer perspective":
> 
> I bought my 5D3 for £1800, not £3400.
> The latter was the UK Street Price at the time at 'Jessops', the standard go-to place for photography goods. The former price is what I paid, via bank transfer and avoiding PayPal/Transaction fees. I challenge you all to look at those above figures, do all the mathamaticising you please, and NOT come up with the answer "wtf?"
> ...


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## kaihp (Dec 7, 2015)

Khufu said:


> Mmmmnope. I'm reluctant to go name-dropping suppliers incase Canon UK are watching  ...but the 5D3 is currently £1443 delivered to my UK door within days from HK.



If you go searching on the World Wide Web for PRICEs for COMmodities sold in Hong Kong, you'll find an interesting site.

5D3 can be found for HKD15,900 for official versions (行) and just below HKD15,000 for the grey versions (水).

Just be prepared to load up your friendly translation service and take its output with ... a dumptruck load of salt.


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## AvTvM (Dec 7, 2015)

tr573 said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > > It's such a hilariously american thing to do (defending the rights of gigantic companies) , like Canon cares one iota about you and your budget.
> ...



Exactly the way I see this, too.

It is obvious who the paid or unpaid Canon pawns are in this forum. The same names jimp up every time anything is posted that is even slightly critical of Canon products and/or business practices. Quite interesting to observe ...


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## Maximilian (Dec 7, 2015)

To make it short:

No one will stop these practices until they also stop free enterprise economy.
Do you prefer another political or economical system?


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## Deleted member 91053 (Dec 7, 2015)

If Canon don't like the "Grey Market" then why did they create it? Their (Canon's) differential pricing is the cause of it all.
I am expecting my Grey 7D2 to arrive tomorrow, UK retailer, UK taxes paid and £400 cheaper than the high street. The ONLY significant variable in the chain is Canon, perhaps they should look closer to home and give our high street retailers a chance with a single unit price wherever it is sent to.


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## Tugela (Dec 8, 2015)

takesome1 said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > What the heck am I missing here? Wasnt the issue with Canon USA losing money repairing grey market stuff under warranty?
> ...



Then that is a choice they make. Canon USA is not obliged to honor warranties of cameras not sold by them. The solution for them should be simple - charge for servicing an out of warranty Canon product. The fact that a camera is out of warranty because the warranty has expired or because it came from another country should not matter - out of warranty is out of warranty. If a customer was defrauded by a retailer who sold them a product under false pretenses, it is the customers problem, not Canons.


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## beforeEos Camaras (Dec 8, 2015)

grainier said:


> Some would say you can help your state (MA I assume) by voting for politicians not quite so eager to tax and spend.



well true but on the outer hand I love small shops and if I buy gray market items those tend to close. superstores and online sales are one thing but try and get customer service I love human voices not robocalls or long lines at customer service and treated like how dare you have a issue.


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## Valvebounce (Dec 8, 2015)

Hi Folks. 
Just in case some here thought I was defending Canon or feeling sorry for them etc my 7DII is on its way, it was £800 (I think or there abouts) on Black Friday weekend so it may be a grey import but I don't give a fig as it comes with a 3 yr warranty from the seller yes it is worth the paper it is written on, I used it on a 40D with busted shutter box. 
I'm with tr573 on this one, I'm in business for me.com and I'm getting the most for my money that I can. 

Cheers, Graham. 



johnf3f said:


> If Canon don't like the "Grey Market" then why did they create it? Their (Canon's) differential pricing is the cause of it all.
> I am expecting my Grey 7D2 to arrive tomorrow, UK retailer, UK taxes paid and £400 cheaper than the high street. The ONLY significant variable in the chain is Canon, perhaps they should look closer to home and give our high street retailers a chance with a single unit price wherever it is sent to.


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## Bennymiata (Dec 8, 2015)

In Australia, you can grey import genuine articles and because of our laws, there is nothing the genuine importer (Canon Aus for example) can do about it, except to refuse warranty service on grey imports.
However, if you import a copy of a brand name article, that has a genuine brand name on it, then you are in deep do do.

This has kept our retail prices competitve with grey imports, indeed, I can often buy cameras cheaper here in Oz than I can get them from Hong Kong, especially when you take freight and insurance into the equation.

Our consumer laws keep the importers honest. If the importers were as protected as they are in the US, we'd be paying lots more in Oz than we do now.
As far as our lawmakers are concerned, anyone can bring in any genuine articles from anywhere in the world with no repercussions either for the individual or a company importing them.
That's the only way to keep the factory importers honest.


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## sanj (Dec 8, 2015)

I saw the video. I see a hard working, organised businessman. I wish him all the success. 

What exactly is he doing unlawful?


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## unfocused (Dec 8, 2015)

sanj said:


> I saw the video. I see a hard working, organised businessman. I wish him all the success.
> 
> What exactly is he doing unlawful?



Fabricating phony serial numbers would be unlawful.


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## Mac Duderson (Dec 8, 2015)

Here is a crazy thought. ???
Maybe Canon created this pricing style to get out of their warranties and make more money. 
Either way they sell the cameras to distributors for the profit they want but then if something breaks they don't have to fix it for free anymore (warranty). Not only that but when you send in your gray market camera they get to fix it for top repair $cost$. WIN! ;D
They double end it and pretend their mad at these gray market companies when in fact they are helping them to increase profits.
In the end we only win if I gray camera holds up longer then the warranty time would have. Everyday products are made cheaper and cheaper. My 50mm 1.2 AF ribbon just packed it in during a wedding amazingly after the warranty was up and the cost to repair it was way beyond what I think it was worth. :'(
My trusty solder gun saved me a few hundred bucks. ;D


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## unfocused (Dec 8, 2015)

Be careful what you wish for.

If Canon loses the law suit they have a perfectly legal remedy they can take -- refuse to accept for repair any product not imported through Canon USA. 

I think some on this forum have indicated that other manufacturers have done that.

Personally, I'm hoping they reach an out of court settlement, which would likely make grey market a little less attractive but not shut it down completely.


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## sanj (Dec 8, 2015)

unfocused said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > I saw the video. I see a hard working, organised businessman. I wish him all the success.
> ...



Yes indeed that would be wrong. How do we know he is doing that?


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## unfocused (Dec 8, 2015)

sanj said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



Canon USA alleges that and provides examples of bodies that have been tampered with. We won't know anything until the case goes to trial ( if it ever gets to trial)


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## AvTvM (Dec 8, 2015)

unfocused said:


> Be careful what you wish for.
> 
> If Canon loses the law suit they have a perfectly legal remedy they can take -- refuse to accept for repair any product not imported through Canon USA.
> I think some on this forum have indicated that other manufacturers have done that.
> Personally, I'm hoping they reach an out of court settlement, which would likely make grey market a little less attractive but not shut it down completely.



CDL / Canon Defense League. 

Should Canon decide to go the Nikon route - refusing to honor warranty on their own products they themselves sold to somebody and made their profit on ... just because customers did not buy it from whom they thought they should buy it from ... then that is just one more reason not to buy Canon stuff any longer. As simple as that.


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## scrup (Dec 8, 2015)

The lawsuit does not change grey imports in the long run, its like torrent piracy, many other options will appear. There are many other grey importers on ebay ready to take the position of f&e trading. It also doesn't stop customers going to ebay hong kong or other asian sites to buy goods to import. 

Canon USA may win the battle, but not the war on grey importers. They really need to change the model to make it less desireable for consumers to import. 

On the fake serials and fake accessories thats a big f*** up, not sure why you would knowingly do that.


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## grainier (Dec 8, 2015)

beforeEos Camaras said:


> grainier said:
> 
> 
> > Some would say you can help your state (MA I assume) by voting for politicians not quite so eager to tax and spend.
> ...



You know, our local legislators raised the sales tax through the roof, pounded on Amazon until it has started collecting taxes, but I don't see any local businesses flourishing because of that - things you could only get online you still only can get online, and they are still cheaper by a similar margin. I mean if _e.g._ I wanted to buy the 100-400 (I am trying to convince myself that I do), there would not be a place to go get it.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 8, 2015)

unfocused said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > I saw the video. I see a hard working, organised businessman. I wish him all the success.
> ...



I wondered the same thing. What was inherently wrong with this video? What, the CEO is being held liable for... being the CEO? I guess I missed the part in the video where they were all hunkered down around a work table changing serial numbers. (I _DON'T_ support that practice btw.) I'm just saying that I don't quite understand how this video in any way supports Canon's lawsuit. If anything, it makes me want to buy a grey market camera right away.


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## tr573 (Dec 8, 2015)

scrup said:


> On the fake serials and fake accessories thats a big f*** up, not sure why you would knowingly do that.



I think the fake labels probably have to do with the source of the cameras. But I don't really have the ability to find say, a japanese camera to compare what the label looks like on those. My wife has an SL1 which came from Canon Aus, and that one has it's original label on it. But that label is in english - I just got a 7D2 which has one of the fake ones (which IMO, whatever why should I care? It's no less or more gray market because of that. ), and I am wondering if it's because the original label was all printed in Japanese or something like that. 

If they are doing it for a reason like that, likely they don't feel like putting in the effort to print out real matching serial # labels as it would be too expensive and time consuming, so they just print a bunch of random ones (or all the same one) and stick them on.


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## AvTvM (Dec 8, 2015)

to me the only reason why they would put fake serial numbers on genuine Canon products is to make it harder for Canon to track down and close down their supply chain. i.e. which Canon subsidiary has sold the cameras/lenses to which distributor where & when. 

Replacing real with fake serial numbers on products does go to far as far as I am concerned, even though it may not be strictly illegal (everywhere), since it has a high likelihood to create problems for (unwary, not well-informed) customers in the future. (Not even I) would blame a company to refuse warranty repairs on products with fake serial number, since it is unclear what other "modifications" may have been performed on them (e.g. swapped out batteries etc.).


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## tr573 (Dec 8, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> to me the only reason why they would put fake serial numbers on genuine Canon products is to make it harder for Canon to track down and close down their supply chain. i.e. which Canon subsidiary has sold the cameras/lenses to which distributor where & when.
> 
> Replacing real with fake serial numbers on products does go to far as far as I am concerned, even though it may not be strictly illegal (everywhere), since it has a high likelihood to create problems for (unwary, not well-informed) customers in the future. (Not even I) would blame a company to refuse warranty repairs on products with fake serial number, since it is unclear what other "modifications" may have been performed on them (e.g. swapped out batteries etc.).



I thought about that reason at first (the making it harder to track down) but considering that I can check the real serial from an exif, Canon can obviously do the same, so what would be the point? I was thinking more along illegible stickers or stickers that don't display an FCC approval seal or something like that.

For the unwary, I can see where it would cause a possible issue in the future. For me, I just peeled the sticker off. Now the body has only one "real" serial stored inside it, that any tech can access.


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## tron (Dec 8, 2015)

hello, some clarifications please:

Do they put a sticker with false serial number over the real one on the camera body itself or just on the camera box?

I understand that some remove the hard copy instruction booklets and/or the real batteries. I remember seeing someone 
in ebay advertising authentic Canon batteries taken from kits....


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## tr573 (Dec 8, 2015)

tron said:


> hello, some clarifications please:
> 
> Do they put a sticker with false serial number over the real one on the camera body itself or just on the camera box?
> 
> ...



The real serial sticker was removed from the body and replaced with a phony one


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## tron (Dec 8, 2015)

tr573 said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > hello, some clarifications please:
> ...


This is both fraud and stupid of the seller.


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## martti (Dec 8, 2015)

The grey market products are made by Canon and initially sold by Canon or a certified Canon dealer to somebody who sells them across the official trade border lines. If Canon wanted to stop this kind of trade it could do so whenever it wanted. Of course they want to sell their products. Somebody buying an EOS body will eventually buy an EF lens. There are a lot of them in the warehouses all over in Japan. Money, GOOD!

One thing that has changed is that some years ago the high-end lenses were sold to publishing houses and professionals who could deduct them in their taxes. Now even hobbyists pay thousands of dollars for lenses and bodies and whatever even though they make their money with something else. For them it makes a real difference if a lens costs 900 or 1400 clams or whatever monetary units used in their transactions.

You can easily make 300 dollars on the price of a high-end lens if you bother to click some links on eBay.
Are you doing harm to yourself buying at a lower price? Will the sky be falling or will there be some fiscal consequences to your transaction?
Negative, nil, nada.

But there will be a choir of jealous people howling because you managed to get something for a better price than they did. And they will be making up stories about how the grey import products will cause food allergy and erosion and salinification of ground water and...unless you stop exhaling, climate change of which YOU will be responsible. You did not pay the right price, the polar bears will suffer!

Unbelievable what kinds of things jealousy and envy makes people say and do.


Should I pay 1200 dollars for a Tamron 150-600mm zoom to get to heaven and if I can find the same lens at 850 dollars, will I end up in hell?

Frankly, I'll just look at the seller's history and if it is OK, I click 'buy'.
If I end up in hell...at least I'll meet people I used to know which would not be the case in Heaven...


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## Khufu (Dec 8, 2015)

Nicely put, Martti!

Here's some more considerations to add to the mix which I think have simply failed to occur to people:

People on commission are at war with one another. They wish to increase their own sales and not support competitors in winning more sales and diminishing their own success. Sometimes these people are more like massive, multi-national corporations which in turn shift the products of their international parent-companies. I'm not certain of the particular titles of the territory-based company divisions but say, for example, they were to go by 'Conan ASIA', 'Conan USA', 'Conan UK', 'Conan AUS' etc. One has to wonder:

If all divisions have the same shiny bricks to sell yet 'Conan ASIA' are working with a territory where they are expected to sell for less than the other territories' divisions are authorised to sell them for, and one day they get a call from 'Conan USA' saying "we've found bajillions of your bricks selling in our town! Put loads of work and money into making this not happen so that you lose bajillions more future sales!"

Q) What is the liklihood that 'Conan ASIA' are going to be super-motivated to play along?

'Conan AUS' also get upset that even the high-street stores start buying in imports from 'Conan ASIA' territory, due to the frankly financially vile, abusive nature of the rules which 'Conan AUS' are at liberty to follow. 'Conan AUS' threaten Mr Jaybilly High-Five with threats to no longer supply them with officially licenced Shiny Bricks, but Mr High-Five is all like "No worries, bro, my Asian brothers are hooking me up and we're getting way more sales at much fairer prices for all involved... Bluff away, as scary as you are, business is pretty sweet right now!"
No doubt 'Conan AUS' get on the phone to 'Conan ASIA' but they're all like "LOL yeah, sorry, gotta' get to the bank! Put it in an email and Steve will get back to you super-soon!"


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## takesome1 (Dec 8, 2015)

Khufu said:


> Nicely put, Martti!
> 
> Here's some more considerations to add to the mix which I think have simply failed to occur to people:
> 
> ...



This post is a prime example why these things are best left to the legal system and attorneys. It also has very little to do with the actual legal action this thread is talking about.

Also, Conan USA was replaced when Jay Leno returned. He received a huge amount of cash because of that breach.


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## Maximilian (Dec 8, 2015)

Khufu said:


> ...
> 'Conan ASIA', 'Conan USA', 'Conan UK', 'Conan AUS' etc. One has to wonder:
> ...


I wonder that the rightholders of "Conan, the Barbarian" didn't insist here ...


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## 1kind (Dec 11, 2015)

It's more about protecting the brand. Someone who bought a gray market and noticed that the serial is different or the warranty is not valid because its gray market, the consumer will point at Canon since it's their product. Consumers rarely will go to the seller and if they do, the seller will just push it and say its Canon's fault.

Another reason why is because of sales. When you buy gray market items, its not counted towards Canon USA, Nikon USA, etc. sales channel as there is no way to track it. This also affects international as well. If it's coming from Japan, Hong Kong, Europe and it's bought elsewhere, it won't count towards their sales. Each country has their own sales, profit margin, etc. Yes, this also affects brick and mortars such as B&H, Adorama and mom and pops. I know B&H use to sell gray market items but I don't see any listed anymore (unless I'm missing it). Manufacturers push you to buy from authorized dealers for a reason...they are legitimate and you're covered via warranty but at the same time, they are "partners".

This goes back to brand but it falls under counterfeits. Not only do you have batteries, there's also flashes and grips that has popped up as counterfeits. I have yet to see cameras or lenses but swapping of serials is just as bad. If they are removing lenses from kits and selling them separately, for all we know, they could be doing the same for batteries. Removing the OEM batteries, selling them separately and swapping it for counterfeit batteries.


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## martti (Dec 11, 2015)

So basically the customer is taking a certain risk while getting a 15 to 20 per cent discount.
Sounds fair to me. Professionals in many countries get to buy their equipment free of VAT which brings the price of the legal item close to the grey market price. Of course they'll opt for the official seller.

The manufacturers could easily block the grey market but they don't want to. They want their products to move and to a certain extent, they do not much care of the methods. Interesting to see, though what the result of the legal action will be and how it will change the market behavior.
I hear Far East eBayers cheering.


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## Khufu (Dec 11, 2015)

1kind said:


> It's more about protecting the brand. Someone who bought a gray market and noticed that the serial is different or the warranty is not valid because its gray market, the consumer will point at Canon since it's their product. Consumers rarely will go to the seller and if they do, the seller will just push it and say its Canon's fault.
> 
> Another reason why is because of sales. When you buy gray market items, its not counted towards Canon USA, Nikon USA, etc. sales channel as there is no way to track it. This also affects international as well. If it's coming from Japan, Hong Kong, Europe and it's bought elsewhere, it won't count towards their sales. Each country has their own sales, profit margin, etc. Yes, this also affects brick and mortars such as B&H, Adorama and mom and pops. I know B&H use to sell gray market items but I don't see any listed anymore (unless I'm missing it). Manufacturers push you to buy from authorized dealers for a reason...they are legitimate and you're covered via warranty but at the same time, they are "partners".
> 
> This goes back to brand but it falls under counterfeits. Not only do you have batteries, there's also flashes and grips that has popped up as counterfeits. I have yet to see cameras or lenses but swapping of serials is just as bad. If they are removing lenses from kits and selling them separately, for all we know, they could be doing the same for batteries. Removing the OEM batteries, selling them separately and swapping it for counterfeit batteries.



If there's one post on the internets which doesn't contain pictures of kittens yet still qualifies as being "cute", well, I think we may have found it!


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## jeffa4444 (Dec 14, 2015)

MAP doesnt exist in Europe its illegal under EU laws. Its not illegal to import anything from another country and sell it locally cheaper than national dealers etc. but the official distributors increasingly will not cover the warrenty which is normally covered by the importers albeit with no certainty. 
I buy all my equipment through UK authorised resellers buying a camera & lenses are big investments which I want covered locally in the event of any fault and whilst so far Ive not had to send anything to Canon under warrenty I have had to for Olympus which they dealt with quickly.


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## Khufu (Dec 14, 2015)

Regarding the latest (and earlier) CR feed update and CR's vocal stance on MAP:

Good on you, CanonRumors! Many of us appreciate you adding your support to the anti-abuse cause... I imagine it's a brave move for guys in your position to go expressing allegiance with "the enemy" but... You're helping put them in their place and that is AWESOME


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## bmwzimmer (Dec 14, 2015)

Canons warranty is pretty lame anyways. If it was 2 years for XXD cameras and up and 3 years for L lenses. Then for sure Most people currently buying grey market would not risk it. 
For example, Tamron. Who in their right mind would buy a grey market tamron without the many 6yr warranty?


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## tr573 (Dec 14, 2015)

bmwzimmer said:


> Canons warranty is pretty lame anyways. If it was 2 years for XXD cameras and up and 3 years for L lenses. Then for sure Most people currently buying grey market would not risk it.
> For example, Tamron. Who in their right mind would buy a grey market tamron without the many 6yr warranty?



I bought a gray 24-70VC. It came with a 7 year Mack warranty, and was 500$ cheaper than US retail.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

bmwzimmer said:


> Canons warranty is pretty lame anyways. If it was 2 years for XXD cameras and up and 3 years for L lenses. Then for sure Most people currently buying grey market would not risk it.
> For example, Tamron. Who in their right mind would buy a grey market tamron without the many 6yr warranty?



This is a good point and what I've thought for years. When comparing new vs. grey or used, the short and limited 1 year warranty that Canon offers for gear that can sometimes cost more than a car (which comes with several years of warranty BTW) is a good justification for not buying new or from a authorized dealer.

A 1 year warranty is essentially Canon saying it will fix DOA or faulty new items but after you've used it few months it's on your dime.

The notable exception to this is when Canon fixes a common defect for free for years. (Like the 5D mirror defects, etc.)


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## weixing (Dec 14, 2015)

Hi,
Hmm... may be the grey market had eaten in Canon USA sales and profit or may be local retailer had a hard time selling and complaint to Canon USA?? 

Anyway, if Canon USA want to discourage grey product, just indicate that full charges (higher) will applied for servicing and service will be in lower priority (take longer) queue.

Have a nice day.


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> Hmm... may be the grey market had eaten in Canon USA sales and profit or may be local retailer had a hard time selling and complaint to Canon USA??
> 
> Anyway, if Canon USA want to discourage grey product, just indicate that full charges (higher) will applied for servicing and service will be in lower priority (take longer) queue.
> ...



Local camera retailers, esp brick and mortar stores, mom & pops, etc have been complaining about grey market for decades. This is nothing new. Online sales used to be called "mail order". Nothing has changed except the way the stuff is promoted and purchased. Instead of paper catalogs we browse a website. Things happen a lot faster now due to instant ordering and fast shipping. This also applies heavily to stereos from Japan. And most of the low priced grey market action has always centered in New York.


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## tomscott (Dec 14, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> MAP doesnt exist in Europe its illegal under EU laws. Its not illegal to import anything from another country and sell it locally cheaper than national dealers etc. but the official distributors increasingly will not cover the warrenty which is normally covered by the importers albeit with no certainty.
> I buy all my equipment through UK authorised resellers buying a camera & lenses are big investments which I want covered locally in the event of any fault and whilst so far Ive not had to send anything to Canon under warrenty I have had to for Olympus which they dealt with quickly.



But at the end of the day your paying 1/3 more for the same product. Like you say you've never had a problem? Because the product is good. I use my gear professionally and hammer it ive never had an issue within the first year. Canon gives you a 1 year warranty is that worth 30%? its insane on a £3000 camera its £1000 if you can afford that then fine.

The last camera I bought was a 7DMKII which was £800 £1299 in the UK that's 60% increase. Madness.

The one time I had an issue with a lens (70-200mm MKII) I bought it through digital rev and they sent it to CPS under its 1 year warranty it was picked up repaired and returned to me for nothing. Excellent service.

When it comes to Canon gear its a no brainer because in my experience its always sees out its warranty and if it doesn't its most likely through abuse in my case shooting motorsport in the rain or you have to be really unlucky.

If its third party then I will buy from a UK store but I bought a tammy 150-600mm in Sept 2015 from a reputable UK dealer. Since they came out 18 months ago there have been 3 firmware updates because of AF problems, all pre Sept 2015 which is why I bought it to ensure it would have the firmware and I wouldn't have to send it away. The lens turns up and its a first iteration lens which had blatantly been opened and used returned and put back into stock and had non of the firmware updates. Returns within a month are fine, I ring up tell them about it and they refuse to take it back without a restocking fee I said that is unacceptable that they have sold me an older product. After a week of back and forth they finally allow it. Just a crap service. 

Just because you take the high road of authorised dealer doesn't mean you get the service you pay for.

Even with me claiming my 20% vat back at the end of the year the import is still cheaper, you get a worldwide 1 year warranty. If you buy from jessops etc you have to pay another £150 for a 3 year warranty its like milking a cow never ends.

For Christmas this year there is more deals than usual companies are desperate to sell because I'm sure they've had a poor year. The 7DMKII is currently £250 reduced with cash back scheme with an extra 10% off. Still in 2 weeks they will be back up to £1299 which is still a 60% increase.

To me it depends whether you can afford to pay all this extra for no reason. Its the same product from the same factory one is 30+% more expensive. No brainer IMO. 

I buy all of my stuff grey market and will continue to do so, makes my expenses considerably cheaper and means I make more money to do other things in my life...


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## RustyTheGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

Tom, I live in the US but I echo your sentiments. I honestly wish the grey market didn't exist and that all prices were equal across the board. (Lower, not higher of course.) It's simpler for everyone. I hate to see my local camera store that has been there for decades (and is a wonderful place) suffer loss of sales due to unfair competition from grey market and online. Their prices match online already but they can't match grey market and they are also required to charge a 8.25% Texas sales tax so it's hard for me to walk in and plunk down $2500 for something I can get online grey market around Black Friday for something like $1800 with free shipping. I love that store but $800 is a serious amount of love that I'm not willing to give. And I'm somewhat of a softy. Most folks won't show any love for a $20 difference. Or even $5.


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## Deleted member 91053 (Dec 14, 2015)

Lets get one thing straight here the "Grey" market is entirely created by the manufacturers. So long as they (Canon, Nikon etc) insist on differential pricing then there will be a "Grey" market. 

I recently purchased a Canon 7D2 for £530 ($800 US) less than I could get it from a UK "Authorised Dealer". It was bought from a UK based retailer with all relevant taxes paid. So why the price difference? The tax rates are the same (eg. VAT at 20%), it's still got to be shipped roughly the same distance and the retailer needs to make some profit so there is only one significant variable in the chain - CANON!
Luckily, for us in the EU, as it was bought in the UK from a UK retailer warranties still apply as does the Sale of Goods act.
Canon, Nikon etc etc are killing their own authorised dealer network and then (in the US) taking retailers to court for the results of their own pricing policies! Looks a little Orwellian to me.
If the authorised dealers could buy the cameras at a fair (same) price then they would be FAR more competitive and the Grey market would disappear virtually overnight. We, their customers, would be a lot happier too! 

Come on Canon, play fair and you will make even more money from even happier customers.


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## cfargo (Dec 15, 2015)

jeffa4444 said:


> MAP doesnt exist in Europe its illegal under EU laws. Its not illegal to import anything from another country and sell it locally cheaper than national dealers etc. but the official distributors increasingly will not cover the warrenty which is normally covered by the importers albeit with no certainty.
> I buy all my equipment through UK authorised resellers buying a camera & lenses are big investments which I want covered locally in the event of any fault and whilst so far Ive not had to send anything to Canon under warrenty I have had to for Olympus which they dealt with quickly.



Not true at all. I have a business in California and an Office in Germany. I bought MagLite flash lights from Home Depot in California and sold them through my German store. MagLite Germany (the exclusive distributor of MagLite's in Germany) got wind of this. It ended up costing me $1700 for the 3 AA MagLites I sold there in Germany.


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## monkey44 (Dec 15, 2015)

Regarding the warranty services - it seems up-selling warranty services is a big deal, and probably very lucrative for the retailer as well. I can recall not go long ago when a warranty was provided with NO -"Hey, you wanna buy the extended warranty for another 10% or more?" Many buyers get afraid of quality now, especially in electronic products as they fail so often, and then buy into the extended plans. 

My bet here (and my experience) if a Canon product works the first year, it's very unlikely it will fail unless you abuse it. And, in all the years I've been shooting Canon DSLR, I've had only two warranty issues, and both immediately fixed at Canon factory (one week). But I need my equipment to work not fail, and if I have to hassle a 'grey market' retailer and delay shoots or miss sports events, then paying that difference becomes a no-brainer. 

With non-pro shooters, the savings might be worth it, but that's a separate issue, I think.


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## Deleted member 91053 (Dec 15, 2015)

monkey44 said:


> But I need my equipment to work not fail, and if I have to hassle a 'grey market' retailer and delay shoots or miss sports events, then paying that difference becomes a no-brainer.
> 
> With non-pro shooters, the savings might be worth it, but that's a separate issue, I think.



I agree with your thinking but reliability? I just checked some UK high street and "Grey" prices. In a nutshell for the price of a new 1DX (from an authorised dealer) I could buy a "Grey" 1DX (mine spoke Chinese) and a 7D2 (mine actually spoke English!) and, if I spent £250 more ($375 US) I could have another 7D2 thrown in!
So 1 camera or the same camera with 2 backups for a fraction more - if my income depends on it I know which I would go for! Note these include full UK taxes and warranties. Don't know where you live but in the UK it is a no-brainer which is why I feel it is so unfair for the authorised dealers.
I do all that I can to support local dealers but I simply cannot afford these price differentials!


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## monkey44 (Dec 15, 2015)

I live in USA - deal primarily with Adorama and B&H since my 'regular' local camera store bit the bullet a few years ago.


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## Deleted member 91053 (Dec 16, 2015)

monkey44 said:


> I live in USA - deal primarily with Adorama and B&H since my 'regular' local camera store bit the bullet a few years ago.



That's the problem!
The store I used to use went belly up despite offering some excellent prices. Their deals on Gitzo tripods made the rip-offs look expensive!
The next nearest store (40+ miles) trades on it's (excellent and well deserved) reputation - it simply cannot compete on prices because Canon/Nikon will not allow it to do so.

I really don't understand their business model. They (Canon, Nikon etc) seem to think that overpricing their products in one region will guarantee more profits. We are now in a Global market, you and I can buy things from wherever we want to. So I can get gear at close to HK prices, fully guaranteed (EU Law) and VERY much cheaper than the high street camera shop can buy them (let alone sell them!) and with all relevant duties paid. In the long run it's the manufacturers who will suffer as they will have no more "Authorised" dealers to tempt newcomers with the latest toys. They are destroying their own shop window!


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## Valvebounce (Dec 16, 2015)

Hi John. 
That is a very valid point, well thought through imho. 
Our local camera shop started diversifying years ago by selling high end hifi, I guess they didn't see the same happening there, now they sell DAB radios, p&s and X00 X000 cameras third party glass and they offer imaging services like slide scanning and photo repairs as in salvaging old prints. 

Cheers, Graham. 



johnf3f said:


> In the long run it's the manufacturers who will suffer as they will have no more "Authorised" dealers to tempt newcomers with the latest toys. They are destroying their own shop window!


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## Local Hero (Dec 16, 2015)

The irony is that Canon USA is the source of heaps of Grey Market product for other markets like Australia, Asia etc.

For example the full retail price at somewhere like B&H or Adorama on a lot of Canon gear is cheaper than the dealer buy price in Australia.

So Canon USA are cutting their own throats so to speak with regards of sales.


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## martti (Dec 16, 2015)

The dealers in Asia will be delighted if they get the American grey market dealer out of the game.
Canon US will not gain much else than a nasty reputation.


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## acorbett (Dec 16, 2015)

Not in favor of MAP? ha. Have fun buying from only amazon in 15 years. If that was overturned today there would be no B&H adorama or any small camera store/processing houses in a solid 15 years. Have fun learning how to use a camera on youtube and getting crap quality from shutterfly. 

If blueberries(or most any fruit) from south america were not fair traded then we would not have blueberries in the US in the winter. Unless you wanted to pay $30 a pint.

On top of that, that means Canon cameras for instance would be the same price as crap cameras made in some basement in china. 

If canon rumors still wants to make money from more then one source(amazon) I would strongly recommend being in favor.

But hey thats just me, what do I know about economics.


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## acorbett (Dec 16, 2015)

some people just want to watch the world burn.


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## martti (Dec 17, 2015)

You can blame it all on the Internet.


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