# with the price of RF L glass might as well jump to Fuji gfx?



## JoTomOz (Jun 13, 2019)

So I bought the Eos R at launch, aiming to future proof expensive lens purchases (I have several mostly lower end Ef lenses). Was even prepared to pay the big bucks for the new RF L primes slowly as they come out. Then in a review for the RF 50mm someone mentioned the price of the eos r plus RF 50mm not being far off the Fujifilm gfx 50r (medium format) plus the 50mm equivalent lens. For an 85mm equivalent prime it’s 2200 vs 2700 for the new RF lens. It got me thinking- if I’m willing to pay more than medium format prices for lenses, should I be saving my money to eventually go into crop medium format instead? I realise medium format is not for everyone, but judging from the way the gfx system is headed it made me stop and think. 

What do people think about Fuji gfx compared to Canon RF?


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## ArtisanCraft (Jun 13, 2019)

The GFX 50 R does not look like a nice camera to me. The GFX 100 seems to be the least I would expect before I jump ship.

I considered the jump too, but the pre-GFX 100 cameras are just too clunky, with disappointing ergos and AF. I'll reiterate though, the GFX 100 is absolutely stunning. I handled it at the store for a good hour and it is not a camera that you'll be tempted to leave at home because of size/weight/ergos/AF, like the other GFX cameras.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 13, 2019)

The question is what you intend to use it for. A lot of my photos are from travel or from kids sports and school events. I'm using FF and the 16-35, 24-70, 70-200, 100-400 are my most used lenses. They're heavy enough as they are, I'd hate to carry something heavier if I moved to a larger format.

Also consider this: The RF is a new system and Canon always charges a premium for the best glass at launch. Remember when the 24-70 f/2.8 II and 100-400 II debuted at over 2k? Now new lenses are going for a lot less than their initial prices. The trend will also happen with RF glass. It's already happening with the R and RF 24-105. The other point is that there are more users for the EOS ecosystem than the GFX. Once all the prices settle after a few years, I'd suspect the R lenses to cost less than Fuji's medium format lenses.


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## unfocused (Jun 13, 2019)

Random Orbits said:


> The question is what you intend to use it for...


Exactly. If you are interested in having a big collection of lenses, then sure, go ahead and pick the system that gets you the most lenses. But if you are interested in actually taking pictures, pick the format that works for your needs.


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## Kit. (Jun 13, 2019)

JoTomOz said:


> So I bought the Eos R at launch, aiming to future proof expensive lens purchases (I have several mostly lower end Ef lenses). Was even prepared to pay the big bucks for the new RF L primes slowly as they come out. Then in a review for the RF 50mm someone mentioned the price of the eos r plus RF 50mm not being far off the Fujifilm gfx 50r (medium format) plus the 50mm equivalent lens.


"Equivalent"?
Are you talking about Zhongyi Mitakon 65/1.4?
Are you aware that it's manual focus and not particularly sharp wide open?



JoTomOz said:


> For an 85mm equivalent prime it’s 2200 vs 2700 for the new RF lens.


Are you talking about Fujinon GF 110/2?
Are you aware that it is slower than 85/1.4? It has an about f/1.55 equivalent aperture.
How come you think it's "equivalent" to 85/1.2?



JoTomOz said:


> What do people think about Fuji gfx compared to Canon RF?


I think it lacks equivalent lenses.


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## JoTomOz (Jun 13, 2019)

ArtisanCraft said:


> The GFX 50 R does not look like a nice camera to me. The GFX 100 seems to be the least I would expect before I jump ship.
> 
> I considered the jump too, but the pre-GFX 100 cameras are just too clunky, with disappointing ergos and AF. I'll reiterate though, the GFX 100 is absolutely stunning. I handled it at the store for a good hour and it is not a camera that you'll be tempted to leave at home because of size/weight/ergos/AF, like the other GFX cameras.


Yeah, if the GFX 100 is an indication of what the 50s/r model replacements will look like- that’s what has me thinking (it would probably be a while as I could of course make do with what I have for a while) . Haven’t actually held the 50s/r before- thanks for sharing the experience on the ergonomics.


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## JoTomOz (Jun 13, 2019)

Random Orbits said:


> The question is what you intend to use it for. A lot of my photos are from travel or from kids sports and school events. I'm using FF and the 16-35, 24-70, 70-200, 100-400 are my most used lenses. They're heavy enough as they are, I'd hate to carry something heavier if I moved to a larger format.
> 
> Also consider this: The RF is a new system and Canon always charges a premium for the best glass at launch. Remember when the 24-70 f/2.8 II and 100-400 II debuted at over 2k? Now new lenses are going for a lot less than their initial prices. The trend will also happen with RF glass. It's already happening with the R and RF 24-105. The other point is that there are more users for the EOS ecosystem than the GFX. Once all the prices settle after a few years, I'd suspect the R lenses to cost less than Fuji's medium format lenses.


I shot with mostly primes (between 24-135mm) at the moment so perhaps that’s why it seems somewhat doable to me, in any case weight has never been an issue to me. I do get some use out of the 100-400mm v1 though. 

Good points about lens prices- The Fuji lenses haven’t been around that long and I guess I assumed they would also fall over time like canon’s- worth looking into. Not sure how I feel about waiting a while for them to drop in price, I guess it depends on how fast they drop- yes you are paying less but you don’t get to use them in the meantime so to some extent it balances out I reckon.


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## JoTomOz (Jun 14, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Exactly. If you are interested in having a big collection of lenses, then sure, go ahead and pick the system that gets you the most lenses. But if you are interested in actually taking pictures, pick the format that works for your needs.


I have started printing big prints of my son for family living overseas, they love them, and it has changed things as I never use to think I needed high resolution. Sure, canon will likely come out with a high megapixel camera, facilitating that kind of resolution for full frame format may be why they are so expensive. The autofocus of the 50s/r out now probably won’t cut it for me. I just always seemed to assume full frame was the pinnacle and best for my needs but am starting to wonder and was wondering if other canon full- framers were too.


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## JoTomOz (Jun 14, 2019)

Kit. said:


> "Equivalent"?
> Are you talking about Zhongyi Mitakon 65/1.4?
> Are you aware that it's manual focus and not particularly sharp wide open?
> 
> ...


Valid point of course. I am talking the autofocus fujinon lenses but was meaning in terms of focal length. I do love me some shallow depth of field but it is one concern among many. I guess I figured the light gathering of the 68%(?) larger sensor makes up for slower apertures. 

And I figure GFX is pretty a pretty young system at the moment. I figure faster lenses are in the horizon and I wouldn’t be jumping anytime soon.


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## Ozarker (Jun 14, 2019)

JoTomOz said:


> I have started printing big prints of my son for family living overseas, they love them, and it has changed things as I never use to think I needed high resolution. Sure, canon will likely come out with a high megapixel camera, facilitating that kind of resolution for full frame format may be why they are so expensive. The autofocus of the 50s/r out now probably won’t cut it for me. I just always seemed to assume full frame was the pinnacle and best for my needs but am starting to wonder and was wondering if other canon full- framers were too.


Then there's the other problem: Will Fuji ultimately survive the contraction of the market and what is their service like? I understand wanting to print big. I have had a lot of 20x30 size prints done. My lowly 5D Mark III handles it fine. Personally, I think it would handle 40x60" prints fine. There are other, and probably better, reasons to go medium format in my mind. Likely you'd be able to use RF lenses for 20+ years if the electronics hold up.


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## Kit. (Jun 14, 2019)

JoTomOz said:


> Valid point of course. I am talking the autofocus fujinon lenses but was meaning in terms of focal length. I do love me some shallow depth of field but it is one concern among many. I guess I figured the light gathering of the 68%(?) larger sensor makes up for slower apertures.


The amount of light a lens gathers from a given solid angle is only determined by the entrance pupil of the lens. A larger format allows for development of lenses with larger entrance pupils (for the same entrance pupil size, it is easier to focus light on a larger sensor than on a smaller sensor, and lenses faster than f/0.5 are thermodynamically impossible), but, once developed, these lenses will be heavier and more expensive.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 14, 2019)

To me, a large format sensor is capable of very nice landscape and portrait images, and if thats where you make your money, you should be considering them. If you want everyday walk around images, even a FF sensor camera is pushing it for size, particularly when you add in a good lens.

I'd definitely rent or borrow a large format camera to try. Too many have lamented that its difficult to just walk around and get a sharp image. It takes planing and careful use. Then, the results are wonderful.

Another benefit with a large format camera is that lenses don't need to be as sharp as they do with a small sensor camera. Thats a good thing, because making them that sharp is very expensive. VERY.


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## dolina (Sep 12, 2022)

JoTomOz said:


> So I bought the Eos R at launch, aiming to future proof expensive lens purchases (I have several mostly lower end Ef lenses). Was even prepared to pay the big bucks for the new RF L primes slowly as they come out. Then in a review for the RF 50mm someone mentioned the price of the eos r plus RF 50mm not being far off the Fujifilm gfx 50r (medium format) plus the 50mm equivalent lens. For an 85mm equivalent prime it’s 2200 vs 2700 for the new RF lens. It got me thinking- if I’m willing to pay more than medium format prices for lenses, should I be saving my money to eventually go into crop medium format instead? I realise medium format is not for everyone, but judging from the way the gfx system is headed it made me stop and think.
> 
> What do people think about Fuji gfx compared to Canon RF?


To frame the FujiFILM G system we need to look at the other players...

Leica S medium format system started in 2008.

- $20k for the single 2020 Leica S3 body
- $5k-12.5k price range for 16 lenses with the last lens, Leica Summicron-S 100 mm f/2 ASPH being released in 2014

FujiFILM G system started in 2017 & has these price points

- $3.5-10k for 3 body SKUs with the last body, Fujifilm GFX 50S II being released 53 weeks ago
- $1k-3.3k price range for 15 lenses with the last two lenses, being released later this year

FujiFILM G medium format system's value proposition is as follows

- medium format hardware
- in a dSLR form factor
- at a dSLR physical dimension & weight
- R3 & R5 price points
- RF L lens price range

This is more damaging to current Canon, Sony & Nikon customers than those of Leica, Hassleblad or any other medium format brand.

An indicator of this would be FujiFILM's marketing tagline is "More than Full Frame". If you're a medium format user prior to 2017 the tagline is something to shrug over. But if you're a long time full frame or smaller user then its a big deal.

APS-C & smaller image sensors are losing ground to smartphones so brands are moving to full frame.

Pentax failed in their executions probably due to resource reasons as they did not go further beyond the 2014 Pentax 645Z & 2015 HD Pentax-D FA645 35mm F3.5 AL [IF]. I've read an article that they had problems fulfilling demand for the $8.5k body that now retails at $5k. I remember feeling surprised by it being the cheapest medium format body at the time.

New lowest price is $3.5k 2021 FujiFILM GFX 50S II body-only during the summer promo price.

Yesterday's Lazada PH promo price was $3,811.78 12% VAT inc for the body + kit lens. That's the price of a US $3.9k 2020 EOS R5 body-only without sales tax. Bought separately the kit lens is $1k. This brings down the body price down to $2,811.78 12% VAT inc. VAT ex price would have been $2,510.52 that is 2020 EOS R6 body-only US pricing without sales tax.

The $10k 2019 Fujifilm GFX 100 is the oldest SKU with its successor, the 2021 Fujifilm GFX 100S costing $6k. It has the same 100+ megapixel 0.79x crop image sensor.

Many are complaining about Canon defending its RF system from 3rd party reverse engineering 4 years into their transition.

If I was making that transition to MILC then FujiFILM looks very interesting from a value proposition.

Its weakness for my use case would be its lack of autofocus designed for birds, wildlife or sports.

In 2015 the cheapest way to get native 50+ megapixel was the $3.9k EOS 5Ds R. That was a big deal to many professionals whose clients contractually require 50+ megapixel files.


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## stevelee (Sep 12, 2022)

I have decided that for my purposes, were I to spend thousands of dollars on a camera right now, I would get the Fujifilm 100S. I would get a couple of lenses for it to use for landscapes. I would still use my DSLR for everything else. I have enough doubts that I would start taking that many more landscape pictures to justify spending that kind of money. I also am unsure which two lenses I would buy for it, and they are coming out with more lenses as I contemplate the choices. As fall leaf color and more moderate temperatures arrive, I could be more tempted to buy the Fujifilm. I will be curious what they will charge for their tilt-shift lens, probably more than I want to spend. In reality, I have resisted buying the Canon 24mm TS-E realizing that I wouldn’t use it that much in real life. I did have fun renting it a couple years ago.

Canon has really good R series cameras that would be a real upgrade for me, but not enough of an upgrade for my uses to spend the money.


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## dolina (Sep 14, 2022)

In future I would not be surprised that FujiFILM GFX medium format bodies will hit these price points occupied by full frame bodies

$4k

- 2016 Canon EOS-1D X Mark II
- 2021 Fujifilm GFX 50S II ($3.5k summer promo price)

$3.9k

- 2020 Canon EOS R5

$3.7k

- 2019 Panasonic Lumix DC-S1R

$3.5k

- 2019 Panasonic Lumix DC-S1H
- 2020 Sony a7S III

$3k

- 2020 Nikon Z7 II
- 2021 Sony a7R IVA

$2.5k

- 2019 Panasonic Lumix DC-S1
- 2020 Canon EOS R6
- 2021 Sony a7 IV
- 2022 Fujifilm X-H2S (Highest-end X-mount body & may serve as the bottom price for GFX bodies)

$1.5k

- 2015 Canon EOS 5DS R (Cheapest 50+ megapixel body was $3.9k in 2015)

Going after Phase One, Hassleblad & Leica medium format customers are secondary concern as the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year – worldwide, for all pre-2013 brands. Its that small because typical medium format bodies goes for more than $10k & lenses more than $3.3k

To frame the FujiFILM G system we need to look at the other players...

Leica S medium format system started in 2008.

- $20k for the single 2020 Leica S3 body
- $5k-12.5k price range for 16 lenses with the last lens, Leica Summicron-S 100 mm f/2 ASPH being released in 2014

FujiFILM G system started in 2017 & has these price points

- $3.5-10k for 3 body SKUs with the last body, Fujifilm GFX 50S II being released 53 weeks ago
- $1k-3.3k price range for 15 lenses with the last two lenses, being released later this year

FujiFILM G medium format systems value proposition is as follows

- medium format image sensor
- in a dSLR form factor
- at a dSLR physical dimension & weight
- R3 & R5 price points
- RF L lens price range

This is more damaging to current Canon, Sony & Nikon customers than those of Leica, Hassleblad or any other medium format brand.

An indicator of this would be FujiFILMs marketing tagline is More than Full Frame. If youre a medium format user prior to 2017 the tagline is something to shrug over. But if youre a long time full frame or smaller user then its a big deal.

APS-C & smaller image sensors are losing ground to smartphones so brands are moving to full frame.

Pentax failed in their executions probably due to resource reasons as they did not go further beyond the 2014 Pentax 645Z & 2015 HD Pentax-D FA645 35mm F3.5 AL [IF]. Ive read an article that they had problems fulfilling demand for the $8.5k body that now retails at $5k. I remember feeling surprised by it being the cheapest medium format body at the time.

New lowest price is $3.5k 2021 FujiFILM GFX 50S II body-only during the summer promo price.

The $10k 2019 Fujifilm GFX 100 is the oldest SKU with its successor, the 2021 Fujifilm GFX 100S costing $6k. It has the same 100+ megapixel 0.79x crop image sensor.

If I was making that transition to MILC then FujiFILM looks very interesting from a value proposition.

Its weakness for my use case would be its lack of autofocus designed for birds, wildlife or sports.

To frame this in 2015 the cheapest way to get native 50+ megapixel was the $3.9k EOS 5Ds R. That was a big deal to many professionals whose clients contractually require 50+ megapixel files.


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## Del Paso (Sep 14, 2022)

What I'm presently considering is, for landscapes, a GFX 100 with one single lens, a 28 or 35mm FF equivalent.
And R5 plus ultrawide, macro and tele-zoom for the rest.
To be honest, I'm really tempted.
The trouble is, my Leica M would have to stay at home, and the 35mm F1,4 too...
And that I'm speaking of GAS, not needs!


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## dolina (Sep 14, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> What I'm presently considering is, for landscapes, a GFX 100 with one single lens, a 28 or 35mm FF equivalent.
> And R5 plus ultrawide, macro and tele-zoom for the rest.
> To be honest, I'm really tempted.
> The trouble is, my Leica M would have to stay at home, and the 35mm F1,4 too...
> And that I'm speaking of GAS, not needs!


I much enjoying purchase studies than actually owning the gear.

Ok, I buy this MF camera system... shoot!! I need relearn muscle memory for different button placements & menu system that is FujiFILM-only.


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## dolina (Sep 15, 2022)

Sales of

- >$10k medium format cameras from Phase One, Hassleblad, Leica, etc
- $6-7k double grip full frame flagship cameras like the Canon 1-Series & 3-Series and Nikon D6 & Z9
- $3-4k single grip full frame professional cameras like Canon 5-Series
- $2.5k prosumer full frame bodies like the Canon 6-Series

And other cameras with APS-C and larger image sensors ~$1k or more are largely unscathed by iPhones and Androids.

Below are CIPA's annual worldwide global shipment # of all digital still cameras.

I am displaying key years

- 1999 & 2000: 1st time they released global shipping # for all digital still cameras. In terms of units shipped they reflect 2021 actual shipments and 2022 forecasted shipments
- 2003: 1st time they broke down # of how many Total SLR vs point & shoots
- 2021 & 2022: Last two years with even more break downs of SLR vs point & shoots vs Mirorless
​
Year1999 Kodak DC2020002003 Canon EOS 10D20212022 forecastTotal Cameras5,088,20710,342,08443,407,9568,361,5217,850,000Point & Shoot--42,562,6283,013,2502,560,000Total SLR & Mirrorless--845,3285,348,2715,290,000SLR--845,3282,241,772-Mirrorless---3,106,499-% of Point & Shoots--98.05%36.04%32.61%% of SLR & Mirrorless--1.95%63.96%67.39%Worldwide population6.034 billion6.114 billion6.194 billion7.9 billion8 billion% of worldwide population relative to cameras shipped that year0.0843%0.1692%0.7008%0.1058%0.0981%


In terms of units shipped we are between year 1999 & 2000 *but* in terms of value of units shipped it is mostly SLR & Mirrorless bodies.

As Canon & Nikon are transitioning out of dSLRs then the future should be based on mirrorless bodies selling for ~$1k or more.


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## stevelee (Sep 16, 2022)

dolina said:


> I much enjoying purchase studies than actually owning the gear.
> 
> Ok, I buy this MF camera system... shoot!! I need relearn muscle memory for different button placements & menu system that is FujiFILM-only.


If I get the 100S, it would be used for very deliberate shooting, mainly on a tripod and shooting landscapes, so no reliance upon muscle memory. Often most settings would be manual, including focus. I would still use my DSLR for almost everything else.


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