# The next body... (my speculations)



## Dave (Sep 1, 2011)

I thought a lot about the next release of canon (since I really need a new cam).

Sony has just released a rellay sexy cam. And rumours say that Nikon will do the same the next couple of weeks. So I think that canon has no choice to response on that challenge. Otherwise they would loose the xmas trade (do you say that in english?) to Nikon and Sony.

Imo there are not so many options.

1200D: 
It's not possible to release a a 1200 without competing the 600D because they are to close together

650D:
Same Problem concerning the 60D. They are to close...

70D:
The 60D has just come up last year

1Dxx...
I don't think that the next SLR from Canon will be a 1D. This is a pure pro body. The sales won't be driven by the christmas trade. I guess a new 1D will be released a couple of months before the next bigger sport event in 2012 (maybe Olympia).

So imho the most likely candidates are:
7D Mk II 
5D MK III

The 7D would be probable because it's more consumer-like cam and better for christmas trade
But the 7D is not THAT old and the 5D III is past due...

So the matter remains interesting...


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## elusive1 (Sep 1, 2011)

For a while, I was hopeful for some new bodies, but as time goes on I seriously am starting to think that Canon has no plans to release anything until they absolutely have milked every penny from their current, dated bodies. So that means it could be a while since unlike Nikon or Sony, Canon can live off their name to a much greater extent. 

So IMO, new bodies not coming for a good long time.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 1, 2011)

The 'christmas trade' for dSLRs almost entirely comprises entry-level bodies, currently the 600D/T3i and 1100D/T3, with perhaps a small contribution from xxD bodies (60D). In general, items >$1,000 don't factor into that retail segment, with the exception of jewelry. You're right that all of the above are too recent to be replaced. So, the upcoming holliday sales are unlikely to affect plans for Canon's dSLR lines (we've already seen new PowerShots announced, though, and we'll see more of those soon - that's for the holiday season). Given that, other criteria will drive dSLR releases, and I suspect that means that if we see any more announcements at all in 2011, we'll see a 1DsIV announced.


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## Ziggy (Sep 1, 2011)

Not an expert, but hope a new pro-DSLR comes out, only for it's a pain to find a new MARK IV right now...


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## mjbehnke (Sep 1, 2011)

I sadly agree. Christmas camera sales are generally P&S cameras. I think the T3 and the T3i are nice intro\novice cameras that were just announced are going to be it for the DSLR side for awhile. Canon does need to announce a 5D MkIII soon! 

Of course, this is MHO


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## J. McCabe (Sep 1, 2011)

Dave said:


> 70D:
> The 60D has just come up last year



AFAIK, the xxD series is on an 18 month cycle, with the 60D released mid 2010, so a 70D body for Christmas sounds reasonable to me. I'd say with the 60D already having the 7D's sensor, what room is there for a 70D before the 7Dmk2 is released ?


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## Tarrum (Sep 1, 2011)

The 650D will most likely be announced next year indeed, but of course it's going to be close to the 600D - I'm guessing a new sensor.

7D next on the list? Doubt it, the xxD line takes more than 2 years and the 7D is higher - so perhaps a few more months. 

The only things not updated are the 1Ds and 5D. I can only imagine these two coming in the next few months, with the 1Ds being first.


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## the-ninth (Sep 1, 2011)

I always was the kind of guy to recommend people to buy what they need now instead of waiting for any mysterious new versions ... but now that I want to upgrade to the 5D series I cannot bring myself to go for the 5DII but anxiously wait for the 5DIII. 

About what to expect next: I read the rumor that next year there will be a new Canon sensor with a significant increase in dynamic range. I cannot picture Canon releasing a 1D with current sensor technology this year and next year a 5D with a much better sensor

So if the rumor about the new sensor technology is true, I'd expect the 5DIII this year and the 1D next year. Or both come next year with the same sensor technology. But then Canon needs to differentiate and the 5DIII might keep an inferior AF. Which would make very unhappy since the AF is the main reason I do not want the Mark II ...

Regards, Robert


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## MK5GTI (Sep 1, 2011)

i 2nd the 650d announcement.

probably the same as 600D but with similar LCD "transforming" ability to the Sony A77.

possibly 20 mp and worst noise performance, priced exactly like the 60D.


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## moreorless (Sep 1, 2011)

Tarrum said:


> The 650D will most likely be announced next year indeed, but of course it's going to be close to the 600D - I'm guessing a new sensor.
> 
> 7D next on the list? Doubt it, the xxD line takes more than 2 years and the 7D is higher - so perhaps a few more months.
> 
> The only things not updated are the 1Ds and 5D. I can only imagine these two coming in the next few months, with the 1Ds being first.



The 50D lasted 2 years because it was introduced quickly to cover the disapointment around the 40D, besides those two models te xxD line has generally been on an 18 month cycle.

The main thing standing in the way of a 70D or a 650D though is I'd say that a new sensor would out spec the 7D. Just as you'd expect the 1Ds Mk 4 to preview the new FF sensor I'd also expect the 7D mk2 to preview the new crop sensor. Canon could I spose try and get away with using the old 7D sensor again in a 650D using the new processor for better FPS but they'd risk being otuspeced pretty quickly and have to release something else a few months latter.

Personally though I wouldnt be shocked if the 7D mk2 came out before the 5D mk3, a new sensor is needed for the xxxD and xxD's and the 7D itself is facing stiffer competision from Nikon so why not take advanatge of previewing it on your flagship crop body?


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## Dave (Sep 1, 2011)

> 7D next on the list? Doubt it, the xxD line takes more than 2 years and the 7D is higher - so perhaps a few more months.



As I said: They have to start at the top... They need a new 7D to have more headroom for a 70D... And they need a 70D to release a 650D. The different lines are too close to each other. Another theory of mine is that there will be no 70D in general (or no 7D MkII): Canon could merge the two lines (again).


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## Haydn1971 (Sep 1, 2011)

I dont see why the 7D has to have a superior sensor ? The 7D is a "pro" product with specialist AF, similar size to the 5DII and even shares the same batteries... It's outside of the xxxD/xxD product cycle, so they could reasonably slip up tp 20-22mpx, leaving the 7D to leapfrog next year to 25-30mpx, leaving headway for a 700D/80D to mak a step to something in-between, thus allowing 2-3 steps between each new 7Dx model.


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## sb (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm not sure why people think 7D and 5DMk2 are "outdated". Is it just because they were released in 2008/2009? They are both insanely good cameras, and will continue to be insanely good even after next generation is released. I'm not planning to replace them until they stop taking pictures.


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## moreorless (Sep 1, 2011)

Haydn1971 said:


> I dont see why the 7D has to have a superior sensor ? The 7D is a "pro" product with specialist AF, similar size to the 5DII and even shares the same batteries... It's outside of the xxxD/xxD product cycle, so they could reasonably slip up tp 20-22mpx, leaving the 7D to leapfrog next year to 25-30mpx, leaving headway for a 700D/80D to mak a step to something in-between, thus allowing 2-3 steps between each new 7Dx model.



It doesnt "have to" but if the sensor is outspected by the 650D and/or 70D then its likely many people will buy those models instead.

One thing to consider with the 5D mk2 is the price its now at, a FF high megapixel body for Â£1500 new is potentially tapping into a different market than the pro bodies generally do and might do even moreso if it can go lower. Even if Canon isnt making much money on the body its potentially growing the FF lens buying market for the future in a way that a more expensive 5D mk3 might not.


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## Haydn1971 (Sep 1, 2011)

moreorless said:


> It doesnt "have to" but if the sensor is outspected by the 650D and/or 70D then its likely many people will buy those models instead.



Nonsense, people don't buy the 7D just for the sensor, by that logic why would anyone pay Â£1200 for the 18mpx 7D when they can get the 550D with the same 18mpx sensor for just over Â£500 !

It's like telling me to trade my 450D in for a Sony NEX5 because it's got a better sensor ! The 7D isn't a consumer camera, unlike the entry level models, it doesn't compete in the shop window on pixels per pound, number of fancy picture modes and meaningless word count on the camera body.

Someone in the market for a 7D isn't gonna cut a corner and say, damn, I'll take that fancy 22mpx Canon 650D and save the extra Â£600 ! They want a 7D for a specific job, that's better AF, faster frame rates, bigger picture buffer, built in flash transmitter, shared batteries with their 5DII, similar handling to their 5DII or any combination of he aforementioned.

I'll show my backside in Harrods window if a 7D appears this side of Xmas 2011, in fact, I'd be surprised to see a 7D before the 650D or 70D... Common sense is heading towards a 1D(s) announced in Autumn ready for Winter, a 5D & 650D in spring 2012 (Olympic big sell on the 650D), I'd suggest a 70D by autumn 2012, with a new 7D sometime in the winter 2012/13


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## Redreflex (Sep 2, 2011)

Haydn1971 said:


> [...]
> I'll show my backside in Harrods window if a 7D appears this side of Xmas 2011
> [...]



I'll hold you to that!


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## Dave (Sep 2, 2011)

> I'm not sure why people think 7D and 5DMk2 are "outdated". Is it just because they were released in 2008/2009? They are both insanely good cameras, and will continue to be insanely good even after next generation is released. I'm not planning to replace them until they stop taking pictures.



In my case the problem is, that my 350D IS going to stop takting pictures very soon I guess... And I'm waiting for the 7D2 or the 5D3 since I definitley want to have flip screen.



> I'll show my backside in Harrods window if a 7D appears this side of Xmas 2011, in fact, I'd be surprised to see a 7D before the 650D or 70D...



How could Canon improve the 600D without competing the 60D??? And how can they improve the 60D without competing the 7D...


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## Osiris30 (Sep 2, 2011)

Haydn1971 said:


> moreorless said:
> 
> 
> > It doesnt "have to" but if the sensor is outspected by the 650D and/or 70D then its likely many people will buy those models instead.
> ...



I know *a lot* of people that haven't bought the 7D because the 60D was close enough and "the sensor is the same anyway". I also know an awful lot of people who didn't go xxD because the xxxDs are pretty damned good now (especially the T3i) feature wise.

If you're not a sports shooter there is relatively little that the 60D leaves on the table vs. the 7D. The same is true for the 600D vs the 60D. Don't get me wrong, each camera up the ladder *does* have benefits, but the question is how much of the population would notice said benefits in a *meaningful* way... it's getting pretty marginal these days.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 2, 2011)

Dave said:


> How could Canon improve the 600D without competing the 60D??? And how can they improve the 60D without competing the 7D...



Remember earlier this year, when the T2i/550D already had the same sensor as the 7D and 60D, and lots of people wondered how the next entry level body could be released without cutting into 60D territory? Yet we got a 600D/T3i anyway, right on schedule. 

As we saw, there don't have to be big changes in that line. The idea isn't really to induce current 600D owners to upgrade, it's mainly to keep the consumer line 'fresh'. For example, the xxxD line has used the same AF sensor for a long time. Canon could go from 1 to 5 cross-type points (still 9 total), allowing them to maintain separation from the 60D while touting a 'substantially improved AF system' for the T4i/650D. The 70D (because the 60D still uses the 40D's AF) would get, say 13 points, and the 7DII would stay the same (oh, sorry...Canon will say 'improved AF algorithms supported by the new Digic V). That's just one possible roadmap, off the top of my head.




Osiris30 said:


> I know *a lot* of people that haven't bought the 7D because the 60D was close enough and "the sensor is the same anyway". I also know an awful lot of people who didn't go xxD because the xxxDs are pretty damned good now (especially the T3i) feature wise.



How many is that? The thing is, Canon 'knows' *ALL* the people who have bought their cameras, and sales of the 7D and 60D remain very strong...so unless your 'a lot' numbers in the thousands (or tens of thousands?), they don't seem to be affecting Canon's bottom line.


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## the-ninth (Sep 2, 2011)

sb said:


> I'm not sure why people think 7D and 5DMk2 are "outdated". Is it just because they were released in 2008/2009? They are both insanely good cameras, and will continue to be insanely good even after next generation is released. I'm not planning to replace them until they stop taking pictures.



I currently have a 30D and there are two main things I am not happy with: the focal lenghts of Canon prime lenses in general and also of those that I own "fit" better to a FF camera, and the AF performance in low light is bad.

Currently there is no Canon camera available that solves this within my budget (1Ds is out of question for me). So I am waiting for the 5DIII to see if it combines the FF with a decent AF. I am not asking for a 7 or 1 series AF, a 50D AF with 9 cross-type sensors would probably already satisfy me.

Cheers, Robert


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## pedro (Sep 2, 2011)

currently have a 30D myself. hoping for fine ISO 12800...I do quite some moonless nightsky photography...and low light photography in general...


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## canon50duser (Sep 2, 2011)

I've been shooting canon digital for 6 years now.. first with a 350D which i loved and now the 50D, which i am very dissapointed with the amount of noise from the sensor at reasonable ISO.. 

I nearly bought a 5D mkii last xmas when the price was very good.. however i am waiting to buy the newest tech.. until then if i need full frame i reach for my film EOS 5.

Until i upgrade my camera body i won't invest another penny in Canon glass..


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## sb (Sep 2, 2011)

Dave said:


> In my case the problem is, that my 350D IS going to stop takting pictures very soon I guess... And I'm waiting for the 7D2 or the 5D3 since I definitley want to have flip screen.



Flip screen is a consumer feature and I'd be shocked if they put it in 7D and 5D. I really hope they don't, because I'd then have to move up to 1D line just to get rid of it.


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## Dave (Sep 2, 2011)

> Flip screen is a consumer feature and I'd be shocked if they put it in 7D and 5D. I really hope they don't,



I really hope - and I'm quite(!!!) sure - they will. This is the future every SLR release in the past months has one and I'm sure the new 5D will go in line with it.

I know the discussion in our German forum. Some people are whining around... But imo that is kind of ridiculous, to resign a cam because of a flip screen. 
It's like like resigning a car because it has air condition that you don't need.

If you don't want flip screen: Don't use it! It's that simple! And I would count on the new 1D. 

It's the same like the discussion 30 years ago: "Ughhhh who needs autofocus? I'm a professionel I focous by hand!"

regards, Dave


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## Gothmoth (Sep 2, 2011)

Dave said:


> > Flip screen is a consumer feature and I'd be shocked if they put it in 7D and 5D. I really hope they don't,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no itÂ´s not exactly the same discussion.
have a look at ebay, search for broken cameras.

look for example at the G5... what is broken? 
most of the time the swivel LCD screen.

swivel displays are always a weak point in the design.
i see the use of a swivel LCD but im not sure if i would want it on a PRO body that has to suffer some abuse.


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## iaind (Sep 2, 2011)

sb said:


> Dave said:
> 
> 
> > In my case the problem is, that my 350D IS going to stop takting pictures very soon I guess... And I'm waiting for the 7D2 or the 5D3 since I definitley want to have flip screen.
> ...



If you dont want video are you going to revert to 1D(s)III?
Only possible use for tilt screen is shooting over a crowd when you forgot to bring a stepladder.
You pay for the features you need on a body unfortunately Canon dont do pick and mix.

How about 5dIII with AF,card slots and built in grip from 1D IV plus upgrades in. sensor and dual chips.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 2, 2011)

iaind said:


> How about 5dIII with AF,card slots and built in grip from 1D IV plus upgrades in. sensor and dual chips.



Sounds good - but, you've just described the 1DsIV.


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## sb (Sep 2, 2011)

Gothmoth said:


> Dave said:
> 
> 
> > > Flip screen is a consumer feature and I'd be shocked if they put it in 7D and 5D. I really hope they don't,
> ...



Thank you Gothmoth, that's exactly right. Flip screen is flimsy and will be the first thing to break. I need a workhorse camera that can take a beating, so movable parts are a big no no. 

Flip screens are hardly "the future" because they've existed in the past on consumer cameras. The reason they work well for typical consumers is because they are used to using live view because of point-and-shoots. 

I will agree that it's moderately useful for video in some situations (low shots off of a slider for example), but then again, pros will often use a dedicated external monitor anyway.



iaind said:


> If you dont want video are you going to revert to 1D(s)III?



No because if I don't want video, I dont have to touch it and it doesn't affect my life. But if the swivel screen accidentally gets caught on something, and it breaks, that affects me.


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## mjbehnke (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't think you will see a swivel screen on the 1D or the 7d series. I don't think they would be in line with the weather sealing and durability of the cameras. The 5D... Maybe, as canon seems to have that camera set in line as a Video\photo camera. Just mho.


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## dkyeah (Sep 2, 2011)

sb said:


> Dave said:
> 
> 
> > In my case the problem is, that my 350D IS going to stop takting pictures very soon I guess... And I'm waiting for the 7D2 or the 5D3 since I definitley want to have flip screen.
> ...


I feel the same way, I really hope they won't put a flip screen on the 5/7D.

Not only it would be the first thing to break but also the layout of the camera would need to be totally redesigned. Look at the 60D, you have absolutely no buttons on the left! Perhaps I'm the only one here, but when I tried a 60D I quite disliked it. I don't like having almost all the buttons on the same side, it just doesn't feel right ???


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## the-ninth (Sep 2, 2011)

sb said:


> Flip screen is a consumer feature and I'd be shocked if they put it in 7D and 5D.



I do hope for a flip screen in the 5DIII. Would be a great thing for candid street photography and also studio work. Shooting from the hip simply gives you a different perspective ...

And even if it is a movable part, if you never move it out of position it won't break ...

Regards, Robert


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## moreorless (Sep 2, 2011)

Haydn1971 said:


> moreorless said:
> 
> 
> > It doesnt "have to" but if the sensor is outspected by the 650D and/or 70D then its likely many people will buy those models instead.
> ...



People obviously don't buy the 7D just for the sensor given that other crop models share it but I don't see whats unreasonable in thinking that if the 650D or 70D outspec it with a new sensor that will cost Canon 7D sales.

The fact is that most 7D buyers are amatures and for many/most of them its features are likely to be prefferable rather than essential. If other Canon crop models offer a superior sensor that will almost definately lead to some buyers going for them instead rather than paying a prenium for the 7D.

To have the lower end model include the high end models sensor at a later date isnt anything new, to have the lower end model preview that sensor is. It wouldnt just cost Canon 7D sales but might potentially damage the hype around the 7D mark 2 if its just going to be recycling a sensor form an entry level body.


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## Haydn1971 (Sep 2, 2011)

moreorless said:


> People obviously don't buy the 7D just for the sensor given that other crop models share it but I don't see whats unreasonable in thinking that if the 650D or 70D outspec it with a new sensor that will cost Canon 7D sales.



Because there is more to getting a great photo than just the sensor... The 7D has dual Digic 4 processors that give it a higher framerate than the 60D, it has a 100% viewfinder, plus a magnesium alloy body. Each of these features will appeal to users who are prepared to pay Â£1200 for a camera.



moreorless said:


> The fact is that most 7D buyers are amatures and for many/most of them its features are likely to be prefferable rather than essential. If other Canon crop models offer a superior sensor that will almost definately lead to some buyers going for them instead rather than paying a prenium for the 7D.



Let them eat cake ! Where do you get the idea that the 7D is bought mostly by amateurs ? You need to be pretty serious or wealthy to buy a 7D over a Â£500 camera. In my large circle of friends, several have DSLR's, perhaps a couple have invested more than Â£1500 in body and lenses, another one is pretty keen and has 3 Nikon bodies (1 FF), some expensive Â£2k lenses, however most have bought entry level kits, plus a second lens.

I can assure you, the 7D is more of a halo product, I've been to an air museum today in Cambridgeshire (UK) and out of the 100's of cameras I saw there, I noticed a couple of 1D style bodies, plus a couple of 5D's, one chap had a gitzo tripod, another had a 70-300L, another had a 24-70mm L. I saw numerous xxxD/xxD's, mostly with 18-55mm kit lenses, some longer kit zoms, some gripped, some with cheaper non-Canon telezoom lenses, I saw loads of bridge cameras, I saw lots of point and click cameras, I also saw a few camcorders too...

Amateurs tend to have wives, mortgages, kids etc... Amateurs don't tend to have 7D money I'm afraid, so suffer with compromises and feel frustrated... I earn a very good income as a freelance civil engineer, I still have to give myself a good talking to each time I buy a new toy and haven't yet found a sensible reason to upgrade from my 450D, once that stops working, I might try to convince myself I need a 7D/5D, but the reality is that my skills don't really stretch the limits of the xxxD/xxD ranges, I am an amateur ! 



moreorless said:


> To have the lower end model include the high end models sensor at a later date isnt anything new, to have the lower end model preview that sensor is. It wouldnt just cost Canon 7D sales but might potentially damage the hype around the 7D mark 2 if its just going to be recycling a sensor form an entry level body.



You assume that a 7DII would come out with the same sensor as the 650D/70D, the 7D debuted 12 months after the 15mpx 50D and 6 months after the 500D, there's nothing stopping canon dropping a 20-22mpx sensor in the 650D in say spring, a 23-25mpx sensor in the 70D in say summer 2012, then drop a 30mpx sensor in the 7DII say in late 2012, then gradually play catch up with the 700D, 750D, 800D, 80D, 90D through 2013-2015 with a view to a 7DIII in 2016 ready for the summer olympics again.

The only people getting hung up on sensors on the 7D would be people who wouldn't be buying one anyways... Net loss to Canon.... Nil ! Because the people who buy the 7D know that a sensor doesn't make the camera, which is why Nikon still sell 12mpx FF bodies and through 2010 was selling a 14mpx entry level D3100, along with the D5000 & D90 that had a 12mpx sensor, with the high end APS-C D7000 leapfrogging the entry level kit with a 16mpx sensor.


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## YoukY63 (Sep 3, 2011)

Haydn1971 said:


> moreorless said:
> 
> 
> > The fact is that most 7D buyers are amatures and for many/most of them its features are likely to be prefferable rather than essential.
> ...


Yes he is right. Canon 7D sells hundred (thousands?) times more to amateurs than to professionals. Just like 5DmII. Just check the selling figures. 



Haydn1971 said:


> You assume that a 7DII would come out with the same sensor as the 650D/70D, the 7D debuted 12 months after the 15mpx 50D and 6 months after the 500D, *there's nothing stopping canon dropping a 20-22mpx sensor in the 650D in say spring, a 23-25mpx sensor in the 70D in say summer 2012, then drop a 30mpx sensor in the 7DII say in late 2012*, then gradually play catch up with the 700D, 750D, 800D, 80D, 90D through 2013-2015 with a view to a 7DIII in 2016 ready for the summer olympics again.
> 
> The only people getting hung up on sensors on the 7D would be people who wouldn't be buying one anyways... Net loss to Canon.... Nil ! Because the people who buy the 7D know that a sensor doesn't make the camera, which is why Nikon still sell 12mpx FF bodies and through 2010 was selling a 14mpx entry level D3100, along with the D5000 & D90 that had a 12mpx sensor, with the high end APS-C D7000 leapfrogging the entry level kit with a 16mpx sensor.


Yes there is something stopping Canon to develop and produce 3 new sensors in the 1st half of 2012: cost! 
That's why today we only have 1 APS-C sensor remaining. Designing and producing a new sensor is very expensive. If you reduce the number of sensors, you reduce the production cost, so you can make cheaper cameras that will sell more.
About D3100, it was just announced 2 weeks prior to the D7000, so we cannot say that it was competing with D90. But what we can say is that D5000 sells when down to the floor after D3100 has been release!
So yes, a good entry level body can damage sells of a higher end product.
If Canon announces tomorrow a 25MP 70D with better IQ, higher iso, higher DR, MFA and just the same other characteristics than 60D (viewfinder, burst rate, etc...) for sure 7D will live a hard time. ;D

PS: me too I am an amateur, I did not earn any yen for my pictures until now, but still I have pretty good equipment.


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## Haydn1971 (Sep 3, 2011)

You may be an amateur, but the evidence suggests that most amateurs are buying bridge and entry level DSLR's, where as the 7D is being bought in limited numbers by people wanting that little extra from their camera, just like you with your 5D, I'll take note next time I buy a body to check the pro or amateur box ;-)

Nothing in life is black and white, there are a whole range of skills and pricing points, to dismiss a 7D as an amateur camera is nothing but elitist rubbish, the same rubbish that convinces bad photographers that a better camera will improve their pictures... If you have the eye for it, you can take a good photo with a camera phone as has been demonstrated in the photo threads by the chap posting as pinnacle photography, some great pictures taken with a pont and shot.

With regard to sensors, any idea of the number of sensor production lines Canon have ? No ? Neither have I, but I'm damn sure that they don't have one line turning out one size, I'd expect several lines pumping out different sizes, just as Intel and AMD do with CPU chips... A quick search on google suggests the bulk price of APS-C sensors was about $70 in 2010, I'd expect that just like CPU's the fail rate goes up with more complex chips, thus as a line matures, the failure rate reduces, so a 18mpx chip today is cheap, two years back would have been expensive, Sony has just launched a 24mpx chip to mainstream products, that suggests to me that higher mpx chips are possible at a price premium. Given the use of dual Digic 4 chips in higher end products, it's a fair assumption that this is a premium priced unit that differentiates the ranges, ramps up the price and makes it harder for a lesser single Digic equipped camera to compete... I don't see a single Digic 5 based camera with a higher mpx sensor getting the frame rates that a dual Digic 4 can with a lower mpx sensor, thus a. 70D performing better than a 7D isn't likely and if technically possible, is likely to be crippled by Canon to protect the 7D

I'm sure you have evidence from Canon to prove me otherwise, but in all fairness, it's just my opinion vs another opinion and of course, we both see ourselves as being correctly informed. I'll say it again, I don't see the 7DII coming anytime soon, or before a 650D, perhaps even a 70D... Just go buy a 7D now, whilst they are cheap, because the new one will be 20-30% more expensive for a few months


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## YoukY63 (Sep 3, 2011)

Haydn1971 said:


> Nothing in life is black and white, there are a whole range of skills and pricing points, to dismiss a 7D as an amateur camera is nothing but elitist rubbish, the same rubbish that convinces bad photographers that a better camera will improve their pictures... *If you have the eye for it, you can take a good photo with a camera phone* as has been demonstrated in the photo threads by the chap posting as pinnacle photography, some great pictures taken with a pont and shot.


I totally agree with you on that point! And I would never try to argue that I am taking better pictures than somebody else just because I have a "better" camera. All what I know is that this camera give me the possibility to take some shots that *I* would not be able to do with lower models. Maybe that's why I am still an amateur.  (off topic: and I think it is even more true about lenses! I love mine for that!! ;D)

For the sensor things, I would not say that Sony just made a big step forward with their 24MP chips. Remember that APS-C sensors are bigger than Canon ones, so comparatively I have read earlier in another topic that 7D sensor would be 22MP in Sony's size. The gap is not huge, especially with 2 years differences, and I think we all agree about the disappointment in IQ field for the new Sony if all the reported images are close to the final product. So Canon still has a (short) hedge and we can be optimistic about their next sensor(s), whenever they will reveal it/them.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2011)

YoukY63 said:


> That's why today we only have 1 APS-C sensor remaining.



Count again. The 18 MP sensor you think is the only one, and the 12 MP sensor that was newly-developed for the T3/1100D - my math says that's two APS-C sensors currently in production. 

But I agree in principle - standardizing on a smaller number of sensors reduces development and production costs, which translates to higher profits.


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## moreorless (Sep 3, 2011)

Haydn1971 said:


> Nothing in life is black and white, there are a whole range of skills and pricing points, to dismiss a 7D as an amateur camera is nothing but elitist rubbish, the same rubbish that convinces bad photographers that a better camera will improve their pictures... If you have the eye for it, you can take a good photo with a camera phone as has been demonstrated in the photo threads by the chap posting as pinnacle photography, some great pictures taken with a pont and shot.



I didnt see anyone "dismiss" the 7D in any way, I merely commented that it sells mostly to amatures which going from what I'v read on the net seems to be correct, the 5D mk 2 sells mostly to amatures aswell and I wouldnt be shocked if even the 1D/1Ds is the same although it would likely be closer. For alot of amature shooters the 7D's features won't be essential, just something to weigh up agenst other areas and if the 650D/70D have a better sensor many will likely choose them instead.



> With regard to sensors, any idea of the number of sensor production lines Canon have ? No ? Neither have I, but I'm damn sure that they don't have one line turning out one size, I'd expect several lines pumping out different sizes, just as Intel and AMD do with CPU chips... A quick search on google suggests the bulk price of APS-C sensors was about $70 in 2010, I'd expect that just like CPU's the fail rate goes up with more complex chips, thus as a line matures, the failure rate reduces, so a 18mpx chip today is cheap, two years back would have been expensive, Sony has just launched a 24mpx chip to mainstream products, that suggests to me that higher mpx chips are possible at a price premium. Given the use of dual Digic 4 chips in higher end products, it's a fair assumption that this is a premium priced unit that differentiates the ranges, ramps up the price and makes it harder for a lesser single Digic equipped camera to compete... I don't see a single Digic 5 based camera with a higher mpx sensor getting the frame rates that a dual Digic 4 can with a lower mpx sensor, thus a. 70D performing better than a 7D isn't likely and if technically possible, is likely to be crippled by Canon to protect the 7D
> 
> I'm sure you have evidence from Canon to prove me otherwise, but in all fairness, it's just my opinion vs another opinion and of course, we both see ourselves as being correctly informed. I'll say it again, I don't see the 7DII coming anytime soon, or before a 650D, perhaps even a 70D... Just go buy a 7D now, whilst they are cheap, because the new one will be 20-30% more expensive for a few months



We don't know for sure but the fact that Canon has slimed down sensor production to 3 units for DSLR's certainly seems to hint that economies of scale play a large part in there profits. When dealing with competision at the level were seeing in the DSLR market a difference of $10-20 on sensor production could make a big difference, plus the devolpment costs are also lessened.

I'm not commeting on whether people buying a 650D or 70D with a new sensor instead of a 7D would be making a wise move or not, many likely wouldnt be. That doesnt change that fact that a higher megapixel sensor in a lower body would more than likely lead to them doing so.


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## Haydn1971 (Sep 3, 2011)

Whilst I too acknowledge the principal of using less sensor types, will equate to greater profit returns, I don't really feel that using the same sensor long term in three ranges as being reasonable to the market. The 7D will be on a longer product cycle than the xxD range, the xxxD on perhaps an even shorter cycle. We may be entering into a new age of reusing sensors in new models, but consider the market will find it hard to swallow, which leads me to believe that the step up in sensors may well be slowing, but there will need to be a difference between the models ultimately, but don't see an issue with a lesser sensor being used in a higher end product, if that product offers other advantages.

The concept of the new 12mpx sensor for the 1100D, rather than using the older 12mpx design from the 450D suggests to me that Canon aren't really that worried about having multiple sensor lines and that the ceiling on 18mpx sensors has been fixed by the 21mpx FF sensor, which had the APS-C range started to pass, questions would have been asked about the FF product especially considering the pixel density is less by a great factor.

The term amateur is interesting here, there is a school of thought that suggests a professional will buy a 1 series camera, because the revenue stream will fund the more costly professional product. I'm reading more and more about professionals using 5D's for weddings, they have been a landscapers favourite for some time, using the 7D's for sports, here the advantages clear to me, the 7D is a crop, thus gives more in the long end for professionals wanting reach, getting away with a 300mm rather han the cost of a 400mm... the cost of the 5D is such that you can have 3 cameras for the price of one professional product.

Times are getting hard, people are looking at ways of cutting their outgoings, one such way is to spend less on photographers at weddings, portraits, landscapes etc, photographers are having to cut their costs to win work, one way is to put off that replacement body with something that doesn't cost as much, replacing one of your three cameras every year with something that will do 99% of what you need could save you Â£1000's each year.

I'm looking forward to where the lines go, my opinion is obviously differen to others, let's agree to disagree and wait for what happens ;-)


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## moreorless (Sep 3, 2011)

The thing is we can guess about the 7D's product cycle but the reality is that this will be the first time its ever been replaced so we don't know for sure.

I agree with your point about the current economic situation, Canon may well be thinking that delaying upgrades for awhile is a good thing as it allows them to drop their price point. The problem with the 7D though is I'd say that you do have that large amature market and alot of amatures arent tied to a system by lenses so competision from Nikon/Sony etc becomes more of a factor aswell.


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## Bateman75 (Sep 3, 2011)

One thing many of us tend to forget is that a huge % of the people that buy xxxD and xxxxd is not hung up on what sensortec is used. They see how many mpix the camera have and thats it. We tend to overanalyze things. The fact that we are here discussing this says to me that we are above average interested in this subject.


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## Kernuak (Sep 3, 2011)

While the 7D may be bought by a number of "amateur" photographers, the vast majority will be more serious amateurs. A sigificant proportion of this group of amateurs will be thinking more like a professional with similar notions of rejecting poorer work. Many will also be producing work almost as good or in some cases better than professionals. With these thoughts in mind, the majority of potential 7D/7D MkII customers would not be looking purely at sensor resolution when deciding on a replacement camera and serious wildlife and sports amateurs would not be happy with anything less, even if it did have slightly higher resolution, as it simply wouldn't do the job. While I'm not the same standard as the top pros, I need the faster frame rate, higher standard focus and weatherproofing the 7D offers and would never consider a 60D replacement, unless it was also a 7D replacement, which wuld seem unlikely. I'm sure most of the 7D owners I know would feel the same way. I also know of pros who bought 7D's, initially to replace 1D MkIII's before the MkIV was released, but also as a backup.


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## akiskev (Sep 3, 2011)

I will be very happy if Canon decides to put swivel screens to next 7d and 5d models(as long as they do not compromise the rigidity of the cameras)!!
I'd be happier if 70d had 7d's autofocus system but that is definitely not happening.


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## Dave (Sep 3, 2011)

> look for example at the G5... what is broken?
> most of the time the swivel LCD screen



If you don't use it, it won't break.



> Flip screens are hardly "the future" because they've existed in the past on consumer cameras.


The 60D is no consumer camera neither is the A77 from Sony (its in competition to the 7D)



> Look at the 60D, you have absolutely no buttons on the left! Perhaps


I thought so too. But actually the new design is much better if you get used to it. You can operate everything with your right hand.


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## Haydn1971 (Sep 3, 2011)

Kernuak said:


> While the 7D may be bought by a number of "amateur" photographers, the vast majority will be more serious amateurs..... Snip



Exactly my thinking !


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## moreorless (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm betting theres a hefty amount of 7D buyers who lack indepth knowledge and choose there purchase based on hype skimming specs but even a "serious amature" may well deside he preffers a 650D with say 21 megapixels and better ISO performance for Â£300-400 less than a 7D.

The higher end models can to some extent have fluid pricing based on specs in reltion to each other but Canon are pretty much bound to having the entry level body around Â£600.


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## KBX500 (Sep 4, 2011)

YoukY63 said:


> Haydn1971 said:
> 
> 
> > moreorless said:
> ...


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