# Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 27, 2018)

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It appears Canon will be shifting a lot of focus to the mirrorless segment in very near future, and claim the EOS M50 is a step in that direction according to a report from the Nikkei Asian Review.</p>
<blockquote><p>TOKYO — <a class="mwMoTrg" href="https://asia.nikkei.com/Company/05DZHY-E" target="_self">Canon</a> will shift more of its focus to mirrorless cameras, a change in strategy spurred by sharp growth in the market.</p>
<p>The company boasts a commanding share of the global single-lens reflex market but was reluctant to enter the mirrorless field over concerns about cannibalizing SLR sales.</p>
<p>Canon said Monday that it will release an entry-level mirrorless camera next month. The product is positioned as “a strategic model” for mirrorless cameras, according to Masahiro Sakata, president of Canon group member Canon Marketing Japan.</p>
<p>Canon hopes that the new product will attract demand from families, including mothers who enjoy taking pictures of their children.</p>
<p>A latecomer to the mirrorless market, Canon released its first model in 2012 under the EOS M brand. The company held 23% of the domestic market for these cameras in 2017, ranking second behind Olympus. It aims for the top spot with the new offering.</p>
<p>With mirrorless cameras rapidly gaining popularity and rivals like Sony breaking into SLRs, Canon decided it must “actively roll out products for a growth market even if there is some cannibalization,” Sakata said.</p>
<p>The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%. Mirrorless cameras also account for half of the interchangeable lens market in Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore. <a href="https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Canon-king-in-SLR-cameras-makes-inroads-into-mirrorless">Read the full article</a></p></blockquote>
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## basisunus (Feb 27, 2018)

Add global shutter and dual-pixel HDR before SONY then.


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## canonic (Feb 27, 2018)

*Canon hopes that the new product will attract demand from families, including mothers who enjoy taking pictures of their children.*

Now we know what the target is ...
Now, Canon, make at least variants with some shades of pink. Those mothers will appreciate it.


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## IglooEater (Feb 27, 2018)

Seems that canon is acting very late if they're having to respond to a market that is already beginning to shift. And if their dslr lineup is to be cannibalized it would seem better that it would be so by a Canon product than that of a competitor. It's as if it took until recently to even recognize that mirrorless was going to be a thing. 
To give them credit, they seem to have caught on, and I expect to seem a great FullFrame mirrorless sometime


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## Diltiazem (Feb 27, 2018)

Canon surely is encouraged by double digit growth of it's mirrorless last year. There likely to be better/higher end M cameras in near future. They need more lenses soon. Canon probably thought they could be relaxed about new M lenses as people could use EF lenses with adapter. I think Canon will change this attitude now.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 27, 2018)

YAPOGrowthFC


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## Talys (Feb 27, 2018)

IglooEater said:


> Seems that canon is acting very late if they're having to respond to a market that is already beginning to shift. And if their dslr lineup is to be cannibalized it would seem better that it would be so by a Canon product than that of a competitor. It's as if it took until recently to even recognize that mirrorless was going to be a thing.
> To give them credit, they seem to have caught on, and I expect to seem a great FullFrame mirrorless sometime



They definitely jumped on later than Sony -- which makes it all the more impressive that they're second behind Olympus.


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## IglooEater (Feb 27, 2018)

Talys said:


> IglooEater said:
> 
> 
> > Seems that canon is acting very late if they're having to respond to a market that is already beginning to shift. And if their dslr lineup is to be cannibalized it would seem better that it would be so by a Canon product than that of a competitor. It's as if it took until recently to even recognize that mirrorless was going to be a thing.
> ...



+1. Very impressive indeed


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## BillB (Feb 27, 2018)

Talys said:


> IglooEater said:
> 
> 
> > Seems that canon is acting very late if they're having to respond to a market that is already beginning to shift. And if their dslr lineup is to be cannibalized it would seem better that it would be so by a Canon product than that of a competitor. It's as if it took until recently to even recognize that mirrorless was going to be a thing.
> ...



Between dual pixel technology and developing the Liveview interface with touchscreen focussing, Canon hasn't exactly been ignoring mirrorless related technologies, even if they haven't put out that many cameras with EVFs.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 27, 2018)

IglooEater said:


> Talys said:
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Canon is playing a long game, most everyone else is playing short term. The canon technology portfolio all plays well together, and they make leaps when multiple things are fielded/proven and they know they can amalgamate them in a working system out of the gate rather than releasing systems with drastic shortcomings, cleaned up over subsequent releases.


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## bf (Feb 28, 2018)

In touch screen interface canon is arguably the best. Their dual pixel is pretty decent in video recording. About M50, I think the most impressive thing is price and the way Canon named it (as their mid-level product). Not too far ago, canon would not place some of these features in their flagship mirror-less.


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## vangelismm (Feb 28, 2018)

Canon is second without any effort.
And will be number one by the end of the year without a FF mirrorless because what really sells is entry level cameras.


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## snappy604 (Feb 28, 2018)

Yeah the M50 got me thinking while its painful waiting, maybe finally they'd do something.. good to see.

wonder if there will be any EF variants on mirrorless. Would hate to adapter all the lenses I have or buy new ones.


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## mistaspeedy (Feb 28, 2018)

"The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"

That's the only way you can get Canon to move.... they smelled the money and want their share of it... totally understandable.


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## alienman (Feb 28, 2018)

Wow canon behind Olympus, I understand this is my opinion but i think sony makes better mirrorless cameras than both the a9 and riii are tough to deny. How soon will it be before we see a Full Frame mirrorless from canon?


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## unfocused (Feb 28, 2018)

canonic said:


> *Canon hopes that the new product will attract demand from families, including mothers who enjoy taking pictures of their children.*
> 
> Now we know what the target is ...
> Now, Canon, make at least variants with some shades of pink. Those mothers will appreciate it.



Yeah, poor Mary Ellen Mark, Diane Arbus, Joyce Tenneson, Margaret Bourke White and Susan Meiselas, all they ever wanted was a pink camera. 

You should have taken Lincoln's advice: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.


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## sanj (Feb 28, 2018)

Now where are the mirrorless haters?? : : :


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## CanoKnight (Feb 28, 2018)

> Canon hopes that the new product will attract demand from families, including mothers who enjoy taking pictures of their children.



..now we know why they feel safe putting 4k in their toy cameras.. not to mention with disabled autofocus. Canon's paranoia of losing sales !


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## ahsanford (Feb 28, 2018)

More talk of entry level stuff here -- so, yawn for me -- but words like 'even if there is cannibalization' leaves me room to believe that FF mirrorless is just a breath away. 

- A


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## transpo1 (Feb 28, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> "The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"
> 
> That's the only way you can get Canon to move.... they smelled the money and want their share of it... totally understandable.



Yup. 

“Canon decided it must ‘actively roll out products for a growth market even if there is some cannibalization.’”

And this article proves for anyone who ever doubted how much they fear cannibalizing their own lines...until of course, they fear other people cannibalizing them more. Which is why they had to change strategy and release a camera with the 4K moniker as a defensive move. I say moniker because once people realize it has a 2.5x crop, they won’t be using it for 4K much.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 28, 2018)

I'm still waiting for a serious mirrorless rather than what amounts to a high end powershot with interchangable lenses. I purchased a SL-2 last summer over a M5 or M6 because of the powershot like interface and lack of wired tethering.

The M50 is definitely heading in the right direction, but I get the feeling that Canon does not want to compete with my 5D MK IV quite yet.


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## transpo1 (Feb 28, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'm still waiting for a serious mirrorless rather than what amounts to a high end powershot with interchangable lenses. I purchased a SL-2 last summer over a M5 or M6 because of the powershot like interface and lack of wired tethering.
> 
> The M50 is definitely heading in the right direction, but I get the feeling that Canon does not want to compete with my 5D MK IV quite yet.



They’ll have to soon but as usual they will drag their heals and be stubborn about it and delay it as long as possible.


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## Talys (Feb 28, 2018)

alienman said:


> Wow canon behind Olympus, I understand this is my opinion but i think sony makes better mirrorless cameras than both the a9 and riii are tough to deny. How soon will it be before we see a Full Frame mirrorless from canon?



The Sony A9 is $4500 and the Sony A7R3 is $3200. That's not where most of the mirrorless sales are. I would say that if they looked at $3,000+ full frame mirrorless bodies... Sony has the market cornered 

A better argument is that the Sony A6300 is an excellent camera. Why doesn't it do better?

There are so many possibilities; who knows. One possible reason is that Sony lenses are very expensive and their selection of first party and especially third party accessories is only a tiny fraction of Canon's. Another possible reason, as I've mentioned before, is that Canon's success in mirrorless could be in part people who are already sold on Canon and EF, and want a small, secondary body that is compatible with their lens collection in a pinch. 

If I ever bought mirrorless, this would be me, right up until the time that EVFs and battery life are as good as DSLRs for wildlife.

Another possibility -- I don't know how common this is, but some camera stores in my area refuse to demo Sony MILCs, especially the high end stuff (A7 and A9 bodies) and some even have a final sale policy on the full frame bodies (exchange for same model on DOA's only).




transpo1 said:


> I say moniker because once people realize it has a 2.5x crop, they won’t be using it for 4K much.



Or, it could lead to a lot of EFM 11-22 sales  And like the EFS 10-18, it's a very nice lens for a great price.


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## Isaacheus (Feb 28, 2018)

Talys said:


> alienman said:
> 
> 
> > Wow canon behind Olympus, I understand this is my opinion but i think sony makes better mirrorless cameras than both the a9 and riii are tough to deny. How soon will it be before we see a Full Frame mirrorless from canon?
> ...



It'll be interesting to see whether the a73 at $2k makes a large difference in this or not - it doesn't give much up to the classic dslr now and the pricing is more suitable for the mainstream ff market. I can't see any significant trade-offs or drawbacks over something like the 6dmk2 or even the 5dmk4. 

The canon m50 looks to be a reasonable entry level mirrorless but we all really want to see how canon will meet the ff mirrorless market


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## Talys (Feb 28, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> It'll be interesting to see whether the a73 at $2k makes a large difference in this or not - it doesn't give much up to the classic dslr now and the pricing is more suitable for the mainstream ff market. I can't see any significant trade-offs or drawbacks over something like the 6dmk2 or even the 5dmk4.
> 
> The canon m50 looks to be a reasonable entry level mirrorless but we all really want to see how canon will meet the ff mirrorless market



It depends on what you want to shoot. If your goal is to go out for a full day of wildlife photography, a 6D2 or 5D4 will easily let you spend 10+ hours looking through the viewfinder and take a thousand photos without a battery swap. Or sports, where you need to look through the viewfinder for many hours.

It'll also feel ergonomically more balanced with those telephoto lenses and -- in my opinion -- just more fun to shoot. You also pay a lot less for several lens options, plus, there are just a lot more lens options.

I haven't been able to give an A7R3 a fair shake in a studio setting, but the A7R2 EVF was pretty terrible with strobes firing all the time. It was really quite annoying for me. There are also some problems with third party accessories in this setting, like Skyport HSS compatibility with Sony (I couldn't get mine to work), and just generally a lot fewer third party accessories.

On the other hand, if your thing is event photography, and especially if you don't want to use a flash, I can totally see the EVFs being preferable. And if you want to shoot candids, like street photography or family stuff, I totally understand how a smaller camera stands out less, and how WYSIWYG EVF makes life easier.

And I think if you're a video person, mirrorless is probably better all around.

But at the end of the day, most of these sales numbers are not about flagship models and not about sales to people who are professionals or extremely enthusiastic hobbyists. What drives profits on the consumer end will be low end and midrange products, because let's be honest, not many people who don't have a passion for photography want to spend $4,000 - $10,000, even if they could afford to.


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## alienman (Feb 28, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Talys said:
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> > alienman said:
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Nice points, also to mention Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina will soon offer FE mount lenses at reasonable prices. I believe this will also give Sony a huge boost in the mirrorless market. If canon decides to create a full frame mirroless are we going to see a new line of lenses? because I doubt the compatibility with EF lenses due to the flange distance.


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## syyeung1 (Feb 28, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Talys said:
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A7III has no advantage in size and weight. Do we go mirrorless just for the sake of it? Canon/Nikon may be better off making traditional FF DSLR (which is their strength) and compete based on function and performance.


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## Sharlin (Feb 28, 2018)

Wait, so is Canon releasing _another_ entry-level mirrorless already next month? A successor to the M100 already or something even more low-end (”M1000”?)


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## Sharlin (Feb 28, 2018)

Talys said:


> A better argument is that the Sony A6300 is an excellent camera. Why doesn't it do better?



It may or may not do well, but it's not an entry-level camera. The A5100 is, so the question is, why doesn't _it_ do better.


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## canonic (Feb 28, 2018)

unfocused said:


> canonic said:
> 
> 
> > *Canon hopes that the new product will attract demand from families, including mothers who enjoy taking pictures of their children.*
> ...



I smile every time when someone uses quotes and names *because* they are *not capable* to use they own thoughts/ideas. Worse ... they are thinking they are smart by doing that. 
Try again, this time yourself. 
You are Homo Sapiens not Homo Copicus/quoticus.


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## Talys (Feb 28, 2018)

syyeung1 said:


> A7III has no advantage in size and weight. Do we go mirrorless just for the sake of it? Canon/Nikon may be better off making traditional FF DSLR (which is their strength) and compete based on function and performance.



I won't go mirrorless just for the sake of it, but if Canon makes a mirrorless that I want and gives me some compelling reason to buy it, there's a good chance that I'll buy one _in addition to_ whatever DSLR comes out next.

If Canon wants more money from me in bodies, the way to do it for an expensive flagship would be a 5D series with articulating touchscreen some of the D850 goodness. Eye AF would really help, too, even if it's only in live view mode.

On the 7D front, all they have to do to sell me one is articulating screen and better ISO 200 - 2000 performance.

But I think I'm unlikely to buy both a 5D and 7D, so it will depend on which one drops first.

On the mirrorless front, assuming that the M5 MkII has a bunch of the M50 features, Canon has a decent chance of getting me to buy one, for no particularly good reason other than that I've been looking to buy an M5 for quite a while. I don't think Canon could get me to spend big on a mirrorless FF flagship; I don't think it would fulfill my needs as a primary camera well, and I wouldn't want to spend that much money on a body, given that.



Sharlin said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > A better argument is that the Sony A6300 is an excellent camera. Why doesn't it do better?
> ...



The reason I was picking A6300 is that this is much closer in price to M5/M6, which I think make up the bulk of Canon's MILC body sales.

But sure, it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask why A5100 doesn't do better.

One possible reason: some people may have had poor experiences with non-camera Sony products. I know that I have, with super-expensive VAIO laptops in the last couple of years when they were made ($3000+ models). They were advertised as cutting edge machines with features like carbon fiber bodies. But they kind of sucked in more ways than I could count. I've been a bit biased against Sony ever since. I've still bought Sony stuff, just not their really expensive electronics.


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## Sharlin (Feb 28, 2018)

canonic said:


> I smile every time when someone uses quotes and names *because* they are *not capable* to use they own thoughts/ideas. Worse ... they are thinking they are smart by doing that.
> Try again, this time yourself.
> You are Homo Sapiens not Homo Copicus/quoticus.



If your original thought is at the level you have demonstrated, perhaps you should stick to quotes as well.


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## Sharlin (Feb 28, 2018)

Talys said:


> Sharlin said:
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Hmm, I don't see why. Like on the DSLR side, entry-level sales (read: M100 and M10 before it) most likely exceed the sales of enthusiast bodies by a large margin. (Think 10x. From now on, with the M50 released, the gap should widen even more.)


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## Talys (Feb 28, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> Talys said:
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You could be right. I don't know. I didn't think M100 sales were all that spectacular, but now that I think about it, I have no idea why I think that


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## canonic (Feb 28, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> canonic said:
> 
> 
> > I smile every time when someone uses quotes and names *because* they are *not capable* to use they own thoughts/ideas. Worse ... they are thinking they are smart by doing that.
> ...



Hehe, i haven't tried to be smart, only ironic. See the difference ?! But, how i like how many of you defend Canon. Sometimes i have the impression you have double personality and the second one is Canon 8) 
This may explain why many of you defend Canon with such vehemence ;D and why you are so reticent to any word which may "hurt" Canon.


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## Isaacheus (Feb 28, 2018)

syyeung1 said:


> A7III has no advantage in size and weight. Do we go mirrorless just for the sake of it? Canon/Nikon may be better off making traditional FF DSLR (which is their strength) and compete based on function and performance.



Not for just the sake of it - I agree that the size/weight benefit is usually pretty well overstated (although it is nice to be able to chuck the 40mm pancake on with the mc-11 as a walk around, fits more easily into small bags than the 6d with the same lens, but I digress). Once you put a 1.4 prime, the difference is basically nil.

The other benefits from a mirrorless design would be good though, evf for video, focus peaking for manual focusing landscapes, zebras for highlights etc. I assume canon will continue with dslrs and that makes sense; I would like to see some feature frontiers being pushed though, decent cameras for the most part but canon has a great way of never giving all the options in one body. At the moment, they don't seem to be willing to attempt the second part of your statement, the prime example being the 6dmk2.


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## jolyonralph (Feb 28, 2018)

syyeung1 said:


> A7III has no advantage in size and weight. Do we go mirrorless just for the sake of it? Canon/Nikon may be better off making traditional FF DSLR (which is their strength) and compete based on function and performance.



Ah, I fear you're stuck in the old "FF Camera = big body + 24-70 2.8 zoom" mindset.

There is no advantage in size and weight if that's all you do day in day out. Perhaps the average wedding photographer wouldn't find a weight benefit in the A7III.

But attach a compact prime to the A7III, something like the 35mm f/2.8 Sony-Zeiss, or their wonderful 55mm f/1.8 portrait lens (which is an order of magnitude better than the Canon 1.4 50) and go have FUN shooting without that huge brick hanging from your neck all day.

The advantage of mirrorless in weight is this flexibility. It's *no worse* when you have to stick your 24-70 on for your day (or weekend) job, but when you want to have fun, stick on a light lens and it's as if it's a totally different camera.

Of course, that's not the only benefit of mirrorless.

For me they are:

1. Ability to review photos through the viewfinder.

2. Ability to manual focus with focus highlighting through the viewfinder.

3. Ditto, with zoom 

4. B&W photography with the viewfinder in B&W. And on my M3 which is converted to infra-red I get real infra-red images in the viewfinder.

5. Much better idea of how your levels look on bright days

6. Automatic face focus through the viewfinder (and, on newer models, automatic eye focus). I can't stress too much how amazingly useful this is. If you're a wedding photographer it may be worth the investment in mirrorless for this feature alone.

The weight and compactness are great benefits, but far from the ONLY benefit.

Now, will canon do an EF mount mirrorless? I doubt it because:

a) If they do, they'll sell more of these bodies to EF lens owners, who won't need to buy new lenses.

b) IF they do a new mount, they'll sell fewer bodies, but those people who buy them will buy more lenses.


Now, I'm pretty sure that Canon make a higher markup on their lenses than they do on the bodies. Which way will Canon go? It's not difficult to figure out...


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## MayaTlab (Feb 28, 2018)

alienman said:


> How soon will it be before we see a Full Frame mirrorless from canon?



Possibly pretty soon for a VERY entry level camera. 

But a few years away from anything close to the A7III. So far Canon hasn't demonstrated that they have the capability to produce sensors with this degree of performance (particularly readout speed, which is critical to reach the A7III's operational qualities) at a sufficiently low price point. The 6DII makes it abundantly clear that they're struggling. They have all the patents needed, but if they can't produce such sensors economically, it won't happen. 

I would love nothing more than to be wrong. 

Even if they could, you'll get typical Canon segmentation, such as the lack of joystick, only 1 SD card, etc... after all we're talking about a brand that omitted radio from its latest €500 flash. The latter won't change for years, it's a - irrational - business culture issue, just like the Sony A7R III's lack of weather sealing near the bottom plate.


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## tomri (Feb 28, 2018)

Really curious whether Canon will try to get away with their "disposable" type of consumer lenses in the mirrorless domain (i.e. f6.3/plastic mount standard zoom) or whether we will see something more decent later this year.


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## LDS (Feb 28, 2018)

unfocused said:


> canonic said:
> 
> 
> > *Canon hopes that the new product will attract demand from families, including mothers who enjoy taking pictures of their children.*
> ...



Isn't rumored that a special edition pink M100 will be released in Japan? At who do you believed it is aimed at? Why some iPhone models are available in pink? Fuji Instax is offered in two shades of pink, plus an "Hello Kitty" model.

Some buyers - especially female - like that, and there's nothing wrong in that. Someone finds black cameras "boring" - and it looks Canon white models has been successful enough they keep on making them.

A "simplified camera for women" would be sexist and discriminatory. Outer colors, offer what people like and buy.


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## IglooEater (Feb 28, 2018)

sanj said:


> Now where are the mirrorless haters?? : : :



Here’s one. I dare say the others are still around but simply weren’t interested enough by the post to read this thread. Until someone resolves the major issues intrinsic to mirrorless, I won’t be partial to them. I expect that someone will be Canon.


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## Ian_of_glos (Feb 28, 2018)

IglooEater said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Now where are the mirrorless haters?? : : :
> ...


Surely the important thing is to be allowed to make our own choice without being bullied or intimidated by someone who happens to prefer a different product. 
Last time I upgraded my camera body I tried many of the leading mirrorless cameras but eventually I decided to buy another DSLR. It was a difficult decision, but on balance the DSLR offered more of the features I wanted and so it was the right decision for me. However this does not mean it would be the right decision for everyone and it does not mean I am a "mirrorless hater". In fact I am delighted that Canon are announcing a number of new mirrorless cameras alongside their range of DSLRs. That way we can all choose the camera that suits us best.


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## eosuser1234 (Feb 28, 2018)

Well if they are concerned about cannibalizing sales of the DSLR market, it would make sense that their FF offering has EF-M mount, and those who want to use EF lenses use the current adaptor. Keep the small format body, and offer higher end EF-M lenses who can cover a FF sensor size.


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## john kriegsmann (Feb 28, 2018)

Canon should just buy Fuji. They are light years ahead of canon in mirrorless lens and body development. The M series bodies are getting better but the problem is there are few if any quality native lenses for the M series. The kit lenses are very slow at F6. There is one pancake fast prime lens and a decent wide angle zoom. Sorry packaging free EOS to M adapters doesn't cut it because SLR lenses for the most part are way too big for the mini M bodies. If Canon wants to me competitive in the cropped sensor mirrorless market they need to develop a native lens lineup. If they want to use their EOS lens they need to come up with a medium to large full frame mirrorless body, anything less than that they will never compete with Sony on the full frame end and Fuji on the cropped sensor market.


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## IglooEater (Feb 28, 2018)

Ian_of_glos said:


> IglooEater said:
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+1. I don’t think that sanj meant a bully by the term, or I wouldn’t have identified with it. If that was meant, I retract that, my sentiments are much closer to what you described.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2018)

john kriegsmann said:


> If Canon wants to me competitive in the cropped sensor mirrorless market they need to develop a native lens lineup. If they want to use their EOS lens they need to come up with a medium to large full frame mirrorless body, anything less than that they will never compete with Sony on the full frame end and Fuji on the cropped sensor market.



Canon is #2 globally in MILC market share. But you're saying they aren't competitive. As for Canon competing with Fuji, that's like the Philadelphia Eagles worrying about competition from the Podunk High School football team. 

Or did you mean compete for _your_ personal positive opinion of their cameras? In that case, please be aware that no one cares.


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## Ian_of_glos (Feb 28, 2018)

IglooEater said:


> Ian_of_glos said:
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I am sure you are right, but when I have been out and about using my DSLR occasionally people have come up to my and asked why I am still using such a dinosaur of a camera, almost as if I don't know that mirrorless cameras exist. This happens in many different walks of life, not just photography. There is always someone who feels they have the right to ridicule anyone why has not yet adopted the latest technology.


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## MayaTlab (Feb 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon is #2 globally in MILC market share. But you're saying they aren't competitive. As for Canon competing with Fuji, that's like the Philadelphia Eagles worrying about competition from the Podunk High School football team.



They're probably doing very well globally, but I can tell you that in very concrete terms it's far easier to purchase Fuji's mirrorless lineup in France than Canon's. 
In fact many stores, either online or brick and mortar stores, don't even stock Canon's M lineup, and if they are it's just because they're contractually obligated to purchase a minimum number of cameras. After the initial stock is sold they just put them on "special order". 
Fujis on the other hand are everywhere in stock as well as most lenses.


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## 3dit0r (Feb 28, 2018)

To me, at the moment, the issue is not Canon continuing to make great DSLRs (although I'll come back to that one), it's that there is no serious mirrorless option _from Canon_ for those who do wish to move to mirrorless for whatever reason. At the moment, it's an all or nothing choice; if you want a serious mirrorless solution, by definition, you are forced away from Canon into a competitor's arms. Why not simply have the choice of the two within Canon's ecosystem? Very clearly there are users who want either or both, so I believe Canon's fear of 'cannibalising' DSRL sales is unfounded. However, if that belief _does_ have foundation, it is even more pressing for Canon to produce a very serious mirrorless offering, as that would mean that, increasingly, they will simply lose those increasing mirrorless sales to their competitors.

That said, what really, genuinely, suprises me more is that _even within DSLR systems_ Canon severely lacks innovation in some areas. This is where they are market leaders, yet there are competitors who even now are building more modern, innovative systems. E.g. the Pentax K-1 (or MKII) now that Pentax's lens lineup for modern full frame sensors is fleshing out. For stills, at least, if I were buying into a new system, I would be very seriously looking at a K-1. IBIS (including hand-held pixel-shift hi res mode on the mkii, and auto-levelling, and AA-filter mimicking), great image quality, fully articulating LCD, astro-tracing, _and a logic board upgrade for owners of the mki to upgrade to mkii!_. All this at around $600 less than a 5D Mark IV.

So, Canon have the size and robustness of a DSLR body to play with, to which any of these new, innovative features could physically be added, they have more patents than any other company (we're constantly reminded), yet a lowly competitor just put a ton more innovation in their DSLR. That to me is an even bigger issue than the lack of a pro mirrorless at this point; if Canon _are_ going to specialise in DSLR, they could at least bring their high-end offerings into the 21st Century and justify that decision to stay away from mirrorless.


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## LDS (Feb 28, 2018)

3dit0r said:


> so I believe Canon's fear of 'cannibalising' DSRL sales is unfounded. However, if that belief _does_ have foundation, it is even more pressing for Canon to produce a very serious mirrorless offering, as that would mean that, increasingly, they will simply lose those increasing mirrorless sales to their competitors.



It looks Canon wasn't keen to have to care about two production lines and everything it requires, from planning production to fit demand (and forecast it well enough) and so on. It's clear that most of the time a mirrorless sold is one DSLR less, and viceversa, many customers usually own a single body, and will go one way or the other.

It will require a deep re-planning, and also moving into "uncharted territory" because I'm not sure they know what their customers will prefer and in which percentage, and planning wrongly may be costly. And there's the issue of EF lenses compatibility, a new mount for high-end FF mirroless may be a risky proposition, since EF mount is not obsolete (like FD was, or Nikon could be), but of course wasn't designed to keep camera size small. Sony had nothing to be compatible with. 

I think Canon has understood it can't wait much more, and will act, but they may have reasonable fears of in-brand competition.


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## alienman (Feb 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> john kriegsmann said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon wants to me competitive in the cropped sensor mirrorless market they need to develop a native lens lineup. If they want to use their EOS lens they need to come up with a medium to large full frame mirrorless body, anything less than that they will never compete with Sony on the full frame end and Fuji on the cropped sensor market.
> ...



Canon may be doing well in sales but I’m sure we can all agree that they are not making the best mirroless cameras. As someone said earlier in the article most of the sales are coming from cheap affordable options. They have a lot of work to do to catch up with other brands.


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## Canoneer (Feb 28, 2018)

The only improvement the M50 offers over the last batch of mirrorless cameras is C RAW and auto camera/smartphone pairing. They have a lot of work to do yet.


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## fussy III (Feb 28, 2018)

I am not angry that Canon is late in mirrorless or in adopting some of the associated technologies. 

But lets remind the company that now may be the critical time to adopt an approach of listening and striving.

As customer I'd ask them to please quit giving me the impression of being regarded as a dependent idiot who is prepared to swallow yet another of their bullshit-camera-releases (just my subjective feeling - certainly I do not know about you idiots).

Does Canon want to keep floating in the mirrorless business or do they wish to become a swimmer? That would take a stroke I guess. But let's wish the CEO well ...


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## Talys (Feb 28, 2018)

Canoneer said:


> The only improvement the M50 offers over the last batch of mirrorless cameras is C RAW and auto camera/smartphone pairing. They have a lot of work to do yet.



Also, Eye AF and 4k. Plus some kind of gyroscopic image stabilization that works with stills, even if it isn't a lot. And a fully articulating screen. Plus, it's cheaper.

These are all improvements 




alienman said:


> Canon may be doing well in sales but I’m sure we can all agree that they are not making the best mirroless cameras. As someone said earlier in the article most of the sales are coming from cheap affordable options. They have a lot of work to do to catch up with other brands.



Canon doesn't make the best full frame mirrorless camera because.... Canon doesn't make a full frame mirrorless camera at all  

I would not call the M5/M6 _cheap_. 

Depending on your criteria, Canon might or might not be the best mirrorless option. The word "best" is a bit loaded, because, _best at what?_. Someone might choose a Sony because they think it's best-looking. Someone might pick Olympus because it has the best weight for an "equivalent focal length". Someone might pick Canon because it feels the best in their hands. 

But it is, provably, the second most _popular_ mirrorless option -- which means that a lot of people who want mirrorless decided that it's the best choice for them.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 28, 2018)

Canoneer said:


> The only improvement the M50 offers over the last batch of mirrorless cameras is C RAW and auto camera/smartphone pairing. They have a lot of work to do yet.



what the blazes are you talking about?

1) C-RAW
2) expanded DPAF area and zones
3) 1 more EV in AF range
4) silent shutter (could be better, but it's a start) 
5) h.264 codec for 4K - the first time in ANY canon ILC
6) DLO in camera
7) eye AF

and this is in an ENTRY level camera.

this is a quantum leap for canon in the entry level camera department.


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## criscokkat (Feb 28, 2018)

If they really wanted to shake things up while keeping the massive userbase that has a very large collection of EF lenses, they have an option that could really shake things up:

* Go Big * 

Most of the EF lenses have a footprint that can work on Fuji's medium format camera that is 44mm by 33mm with slight vignetting in the corners. Canon could most likely slightly upsize the sensor size to 40x26.5 with no vignetting on the 90% of their lenses (A crop mode when certain lenses are attached would take care of that). This could allow some play when recording video for stabilization (which is the other reason aside from bandwidth for why crop modes are used). This would give them a reason to keep the larger size, and would not be something Sony could match. Plus they could point out that it captures X% more light than Sony's offerings. I'm not even sure how much Nikon would be able to compete, as they use Sony's sensors and I'm not sure if there is enough of a market for Sony to create different sizes just for Nikon. 

They could also play the same trick with the EF-M line - they could resurrect the APS-H size as a replacement for the APS-C. The EF-M will *almost* fit a full frame sensor, it could handle the APS-H size. and be able to use extra room as a crop mode that crops it down to more the current native aps-c size when using image stabilization on a video. 

That would certainly be a "mike drop" moment. And because they have chosen to "go last" they have that opportunity to turn the tables with an innovation other than "I made it smaller to be like the competition". Because if everyone has to re-buy their lenses for a new full frame mirrorless, they run the risk of giving people that are currently locked in an option to go elsewhere.


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## ahsanford (Feb 28, 2018)

syyeung1 said:


> A7III has no advantage in size and weight. Do we go mirrorless just for the sake of it? Canon/Nikon may be better off making traditional FF DSLR (which is their strength) and compete based on function and performance.



In FF, it's far less about how small you can make things than what mirrorless can potentially do _better than SLRs_:


No mirror = no mirror slap, one less thing that can fail, make noise, limit fps, etc.


EVF = much more useful info through the VF, massive upgrade for manual lens users, amplify light in dark rooms, etc.

Of course, mirrorless has downsides as well. It's not categorically better than SLRs today or Canon would be selling them across the board. At some things mirrorless is better. In many, many others, SLRs remain the best choice. 

So Canon has been (shrewdly) hedging on offering two parallel FF portfolios of products until technology building blocks are in place to make mirrorless work well with minimized limitations/downsides.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2018)

alienman said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > john kriegsmann said:
> ...



I'm sure glad we have you here to define "best" for all of us. We'd be so lost without you. :


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## rrcphoto (Feb 28, 2018)

alienman said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > john kriegsmann said:
> ...



they have arguably the best color science, UI and some of the best ergonomics in mirrorless right now.

then again, taking actual pictures with cameras is kind of unheard of.


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## Wolfloid (Feb 28, 2018)

I wonder whether Canon really has the technology to compete with the high end mirrorless cameras. I have been surprised by the absences from their recent releases that make me also suspect a lack of management wherewithal. I know there are people here who are bent on defending the decisions that Canon is making, seeing intelligent strategic and economic thinking, but I wonder if that is at all helpful. The 6DII is really a case in point - they released a camera that is seriously crippled, even though Nikon already had a far superior, similarly priced competitor in the D750 that had already been around for a while. Now Sony has released the A7III, which seems completely superior in every single respect to the 6DII other than for those who prefer an optical viewfinder. Who will buy the 6DII now that the A7III has arrived? Not even sports or wildlife photographers. It is not even clear to me that the 5DIV, an excellent camera, is really any better than the new Sony, again, apart from its optical viewfinder. 

I can see why wildlife and sports photographers will stick with DSLRs, perhaps for a long while, but everybody else? Canon sales are seriously declining, the low end of point and shoots has gone and DSLR sales are also falling. Where is Canon going to get new sales from? Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally. Surely, they must see this, yet still they dither with some very sub-standard mid to low-end mirrorless products. Maybe, they have waited too long and now Sony has taken a long lead in bringing size down, and delivering high spec such as IBIS, tilting screens, and better sensor design, which Canon still does not seem to be able to produce. Maybe it is a technology and management problem combined. A pity, because their ergonomics are still the best.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 28, 2018)

LDS said:


> 3dit0r said:
> 
> 
> > so I believe Canon's fear of 'cannibalising' DSRL sales is unfounded. However, if that belief _does_ have foundation, it is even more pressing for Canon to produce a very serious mirrorless offering, as that would mean that, increasingly, they will simply lose those increasing mirrorless sales to their competitors.
> ...



Canon has automated lines that I'm sure can handle it.. the question is .. what was the point before now?

They got "serious" with the M5 I believe, but the M50 IMO a sign that they are spending a greater degree of R&D in mirrorless and going to rapidly catch up in the feature department.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 28, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> I wonder whether Canon really has the technology to compete with the high end mirrorless cameras.



DIGIC 8 gets them closer.


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## Talys (Feb 28, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> I wonder whether Canon really has the technology to compete with the high end mirrorless cameras.



Since Canon makes lots of mirorless tech that is often the choice for broadcast - like, you know, the Olympics - I would venture to guess on the technology front, the answer is "yes".



Wolfloid said:


> Canon sales are seriously declining



They are? Their financial reports seem to say otherwise.



Wolfloid said:


> Where is Canon going to get new sales from? Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally.



I'm not saying that you're wrong, but do you have any facts to support this claim?


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## JohanCruyff (Feb 28, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> Canoneer said:
> 
> 
> > The only improvement the M50 offers over the last batch of mirrorless cameras is C RAW and auto camera/smartphone pairing. They have a lot of work to do yet.
> ...


Increased autofocus coverage (with 3 EF-M lenses): from 80% x 80% to 100% x 88%: the smaller M50's AF zones range from 99 to 143 vs 49 M5's zones


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally.



In fact, Canon is #2 globally in MILC. In Japan, they are behind Olympus, whereas globally, Sony is the MILC market leader. But Canon still sells more FF ILC's than Sony.


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## ahsanford (Feb 28, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> I wonder whether Canon really has the technology to compete with the high end mirrorless cameras.



That depends on what we're harping on:


Sensors: yes in practical terms, less so in perception (thanks DXO)
EVFs: not my wheelhouse, I'll defer to others on this -- presume yes?
Touchscreen: yes
AF: yes
Connectivity/wireless: presume yes, but I haven't used Canon wireless options enough to know how well it works
Ergonomics, controls: yes, yes, all day
Video: not my wheelhouse, but I always hear how Canon can't deliver the format / lack of crop / etc. that others can, but I'll leave others to comment here.
Stills throughput: this is a big fat no right now. We can debate if folks truly _need_ (say) 42 MP x 10 fps 14-bit RAW throughput, but Sony and Nikon are moving a _ton_ more data than Canon does right now.
IBIS: No, but that seems to be more of a technology choice (Canon favoring lens IS) than an inability of Canon to deliver it.
Native mount lenses: this is a knuckleball of a qualifier as any new system will struggle here at first (unless FF mirrorless is full EF :), so I won't ding them here for it.
Speedlites: yes

So, IMHO, the only thing holding back Canon from offering something *commercially competitive* in FF mirrorless is _the will to build something and put their name on it._ It will sell.

But if you are referring to something *spec-sheet competitive* to other offerings at the same price point, it's quite clear that Canon is under no imperative to do that -- so I wouldn't hold your breath.

- A


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## MayaTlab (Feb 28, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> I wonder whether Canon really has the technology to compete with the high end mirrorless cameras.



They probably have the engineering know-how. 

However I feel that they have been too reluctant to invest in production processes that could make it a reality at a given price point (particularly on the sensor side). 
Canon has produced lots of patents lately about BSI, stacked, or (insert other marketing buzzword here) sensors, and has done a lot of sensor PR stunts, but so far they haven't shown anything for it in stills cameras bar DPAF (which admittedly is quite nice). 

I think that the 6DII's sensor, for example, isn't Canon being malicious. I think that it's just the best they can do for $2000 in 2018.


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## fussy III (Feb 28, 2018)

JohanCruyff said:


> this is a quantum leap for canon in the entry level camera department.



A quantum leap it is when we consider the leaps that Canon has been making in the past years. But no quantum leap it is by anyone else's standards. And are those leaps by Canon really high enough to ever lead anywhere or does the company merely pretend it wishes to get somewhere with this? I have my doubts.


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## Wolfloid (Feb 28, 2018)

"In fact, Canon is #2 globally in MILC".

Could you reference that? I read that they are behind Sony, Olympus and Fuji.


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## Wolfloid (Feb 28, 2018)

> They are? Their financial reports seem to say otherwise.



What, with their small camera sales wiped out and DSLR sales dropping? Perhaps their photocopier sales are up.


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## jeffa4444 (Feb 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Wolfloid said:
> 
> 
> > Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally.
> ...



Olympus make some pretty good MILC cameras and lenses particularly considering micro 4/3rds is smaller than APS-C. The pro lenses in the line-up are pretty good too Ive been invested in their 4/3rds system since they started it mainly because of size & weight so changing to EOS-M was not attractive. 

All that said its chalk & cheese viewing images between an Olympus OM-D E-M1 MKII and a Canon EOS 5DS. The 5DS with good L glass is in a league of its own for a DSLR or MILC with superior color imagery, fine detail and viewable resolution. The Olympus is a great friend if you want flexibility and want to travel light at the same time but ergonomically just doesn't cut it like the Canon. As good as EVF viewfinders have got they do not surpass optical viewfinders and Canon touch screen tech is far superior to Olympus.


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## EduPortas (Feb 28, 2018)

Just to add my 2c.

Since Canon already had an outstanding advantage in the camera market before
mirrorless even became a thing, they played the waiting game for the last five years.

They waited and analyzed Oly's, Panny, Fuji and Sony's products to see what worked and what sells in mirrorless.

Effectively, the spent zero dollars doing that research, since all costs were shouldered by their competitors.

In retrospect, those companies had no other choice. They needed to surprise the consumer one way
or the other before the sleeping giant saw them a realistic potential threat.

Now it's time for Canon to unleash the consumer mirrorless cameras that will sell a ton. Cheapish cameras
will bells and whistles that further their position as the imaging giant they are. Once the first Rebel
with 4K is released, it's basically game over for everyone else.

They already have their 4K bookends in place: the really high-end gear (1DX Mark II, 5D M4)
and the lower echelon (M50). Time to fill the holes with the obligatory Rebel, a Swiss-army camera (Canon 80D et al)
and the sporting and wildlife favorite 7D. 

All of these DSLRs will be released with 4K within the next Canon fiscal year (starts every January).
Some may even branch out into newer mirrorless lines (most probably the Rebel models).

Wild speculation, for sure. Fun times for anyone who already owns a bunch of Canon glass.


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## IglooEater (Feb 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Wolfloid said:
> 
> 
> > Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally.
> ...



I believe you, but I’d be curious to see the data. Would you mind linking it?


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## dak723 (Feb 28, 2018)

alienman said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > john kriegsmann said:
> ...



Well, we're not all going to agree with that at all. Having purchased Sony FF, Olympus m4/3 and Canon's M5 mirrorless, the best of the bunch, in my opinion, is the Canon M5. Olympus E-M1 is a close second. Given a choice between them (and I did have the choice) the only cameras that I did not keep were the Sony A7 and A7 II. So despite all the Sony hype, unless you can afford their over $1,000 lenses, I would avoid them like the plague, as their 28-70 and 24-70 kit lenses (not that cheap, by the way) are awful due to the too short flange distance in the Sony FF. If color matters to you, then Canon and Olympus seem far better choices (obviously a subjective opinion). Shooting in daylight and not needing prints over 8 X 12, my M5 replaced my 6D. So, no I don't agree that Canon doesn't make the best mirrorless camera, nor do they have a lot of catching up to do. Until Sony can produce decent color, it is they that have a lot of catching up to do, in my opinion.


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## scyrene (Feb 28, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> No mirror = no mirror slap, *one less thing that can fail*, make noise, limit fps, etc.





Not wishing to pick a fight with you, but this is something that bugs me. Mirrorless cameras take away, but also insert components compared to DSLRs - and do we have any data that an EVF is less likely to fail (or has a longer average working lifespan) than a mirror assembly? The assumption I see repeatedly is that mechanical stuff fails more than electronic, but that doesn't chime with my anedotal experiences.


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## ahsanford (Feb 28, 2018)

EduPortas said:


> Now it's time for Canon to unleash the consumer mirrorless cameras that will sell a ton. Cheapish cameras
> will bells and whistles that further their position as the imaging giant they are.



Agree. This is happening with the cheaper offerings with EOS M, but I believe Canon going all-in branding wise with a 'Mirrorless Rebel' and putting the weight of the business behind it will gobble up sub-$1k mirrorless sales like they did with SLRs.



EduPortas said:


> Once the first Rebel with 4K is released, it's basically game over for everyone else.



And here is where we disagree. I believe the future of the Canons/Nikons/etc. of the world in the consumer space is to latch on to folks who live in social media (heavy IG + FB users in particular) -- those folks want content that pops above and beyond what a cell phone can capture, not necessarily some high resolution video that pops on a 4K monitor _that few folks actually process their social media on_. So in my mind, for those folks it's about color / small DOF / low light performance much more than video resolution.

And the type of video features consumers need differ a ton from the needs of videographers. Don't get me wrong, video is great for social media devotees, but DPAF + tilty-flippy + touch + the ability to conveniently pipe/transfer/share that video is far more important than 4K for those folks, IMHO.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Feb 28, 2018)

JohanCruyff said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Canoneer said:
> ...



better than no increase.

considering the 18-150 is my go-to lens, i'm more than happy to see this coming to the M5.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 28, 2018)

Canoneer said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Canoneer said:
> ...



can't help with the personal attacks when you're obviously proven to be incorrect or overly dramatic?
2) what does 4K have to do with it? nothing.
3) better AF in low light is a yawn? okay.. 
5) you were talking about canon cameras, changing the goalposts because you are losing the argument is in poor taste.
6) it's already in DSLR's.
7) are you serious? canon hasn't had eye focus AF. that was eye controlled AF something entirely different.

you are in fact, now certainly reported.


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## LDS (Feb 28, 2018)

scyrene said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > No mirror = no mirror slap, *one less thing that can fail*, make noise, limit fps, etc.
> ...





Don't believe an OLED display will last as long as a mirror, and even a mechanical shutter. I don't believe thirty years old or more mirrorless will still work - but I guess that's not an issue for many. Mechanical stuff built with excellent materials, engineering, and workmanship may last decades, if not wore out. Many electronic components may decay and stop working earlier.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 28, 2018)

fussy III said:


> JohanCruyff said:
> 
> 
> > this is a quantum leap for canon in the entry level camera department.
> ...



show me anyone else that has done such a feature leap in their entry level models from release to release. M100 to M50. please go ahead.

Sony hasn't bothered to update their entry level A5100 in years. Fuji just gives the A series a warm makeover.

On the DSLR front, it's always been more of the same old same old.

Panasonic quit making entry level cameras. Olympus every now and then comes out with E-PL series camera that is still stripped down from their bigger brothers.


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## Dholai (Feb 28, 2018)

The way I understand it... it is simple.

Just the way canon captured the SLR/dSLR market , they are going to go full throttle to be the market leader in MILC. Next few years, we will see a lot of new, exciting releases from Canon in this segment to solidify there major market share and then, they will sit back and relax !
No matter how much you all whine then regarding Canon's then outdated products, they will still remain the market leader in this segment!
Nice strategy!


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## ahsanford (Feb 28, 2018)

scyrene said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > No mirror = no mirror slap, *one less thing that can fail*, make noise, limit fps, etc.
> ...



Fair. Canon rates it's shutter actuations but not its mirror actuations, correct? 

I have a common sense argument that presently lacks data. But that common sense is standing on fairly solid ground here, yeah? How often do we hear of Canon products blowing a board, LCDs failing, etc. vs. mechanical wear and tear issues we often see?

Would love to have Uncle Rog from LR crash this thread right now as he lives this every day. I'm curious to hear the answer!

- A


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## Talys (Feb 28, 2018)

LDS said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Here's the thing. 

How many people have taken enough photos on their Canon to kill the mirror or shutter? How many of those people don't feel they've gotten their money's worth?

We could probably ask the same thing of OLED EVFs. One thing to possibly consider is that OLEDs change characteristics over their life and suffer burn in. But again, to probably will never be noticeable. 

It's fun to bandy around hypotheticals, but the truth is that most people never come close to reaching the life of these.


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## reef58 (Feb 28, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> fussy III said:
> 
> 
> > JohanCruyff said:
> ...



My Olympus EM10mk2 is loaded with features at a similar price to the M50. That being said I cannot figure out how to use them and really don't like the camera, so I guess there is more to life than features. To be fair I probably haven't given it a proper chance, but i am constantly changing the exposure from accidentally hitting the knobs. When Canon comes out with the m5ii I may sell the Olympus.


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## KirkD (Feb 28, 2018)

This is good news, but it comes too late for me. I have already had to invest in Sony mirrorless gear.


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## ahsanford (Feb 28, 2018)

reef58 said:


> My Olympus EM10mk2 is loaded with features at a similar price to the M50. That being said I cannot figure out how to use them and really don't like the camera, so I guess there is more to life than features. To be fair I probably haven't given it a proper chance, but i am constantly changing the exposure from accidentally hitting the knobs. When Canon comes out with the m5ii I may sell the Olympus.



Perhaps the M5 II will solve that pesky 'you can have 4K OR you have can DPAF' enigma the M50 could not overcome. 

Have the CPU/EE design folks here rendered a verdict on that with the M50? Is it BS product-nerfing / price-protection or is there a legit added cost necessary to pull that off? Doesn't the 5D4 pull that off with a single DIGIC 6, or does it also defeat the DPAF with 4K? (Educate me, please, video capture is a technical language I do not speak.)

- A


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## rrcphoto (Feb 28, 2018)

reef58 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > fussy III said:
> ...



GOod example. I'd argue that the EM-10 Mark II isn't as much of a leap from an EM-10 classic though


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## rrcphoto (Feb 28, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> reef58 said:
> 
> 
> > My Olympus EM10mk2 is loaded with features at a similar price to the M50. That being said I cannot figure out how to use them and really don't like the camera, so I guess there is more to life than features. To be fair I probably haven't given it a proper chance, but i am constantly changing the exposure from accidentally hitting the knobs. When Canon comes out with the m5ii I may sell the Olympus.
> ...



it's really hard to say. with contrast detect they can look at hte frames themselves.
with DPAF they have to switch off the sensor flip it into AF read mode, take readings, flip it back and do the exposure and at the same time calculate AF and reposition the lens.

it could be battery life. the thing was down to 235 shots on the LP-E12, so the M5 Mark II has a bigger battery, and a true 4K camera mirrorless should have a grip for more battery ommph.


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## bhf3737 (Feb 28, 2018)

LDS said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...


I guess both arguments are correct! When designing electro-mechanical devices, a common assumption has been that the mean-time-to-failure (MTTF) of mechanical parts is about 10 times less than electronic parts. That is, mechanical parts fail earlier. Another principle is that reliability of the whole system - with no redundancy - is dominated by (i.e. lesser than) the reliability of the "loose end" component.
In old film SLR cameras, everything was mechanical and components with faster wear out, e.g. shutter mechanism, were bringing the system down. 
In current DSLRs, statistically speaking, mechanical components are failing more frequently than the electronic parts. 
In mirrorless cameras, with close to zero mechanical parts, currently, the loose-end is the OLED screen and viewfinder. They are used because of lesser power consumption than LCD. But OLED parts have average MTTF of 4-5 years which is less than half of the rest of the components. Also they suffer from color degradation, so as time goes by, the screen becomes dimmer and blue color turns to become darker. So what-you-see-is-what-you-get, which is a strong argument used by mirrorless diehards, does not hold for older cameras a few years down the road. It also has negative impact on resale value of older mirrorless cameras.


----------



## dak723 (Feb 28, 2018)

scyrene said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > No mirror = no mirror slap, *one less thing that can fail*, make noise, limit fps, etc.
> ...





Nor mine. Electronics that I have owned have failed far earlier than mechanical things. My Canon Rebel lasted 9 years - which I thought was quite remarkable! My old SLR, on the other hand, worked for 30 years before I sold it at a garage sale.


----------



## rrcphoto (Feb 28, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> LDS said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



that really depends on temperature.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> "In fact, Canon is #2 globally in MILC".
> Could you reference that? I read that they are behind Sony, Olympus and Fuji.





IglooEater said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Wolfloid said:
> ...



There's not one single reference for this sort of thing. Rather, you have to dig into the financial reports, summaries, and presentation transcripts of the various companies. Unit sales of MILCs look like something this:

*Sony:* FY2015 - ~1.4M units; FY2016 - ~1.4M units; FY2017 - ~1.75M units
*Olympus:* FY2015 - 510K units; FY2016 - 550K units; FY2017- 450K units
*Canon:* FY2015 - ~350K units; FY2016 - ~425K units; FY2017 - unknown, but Canon stated they increased y/y with double-digit growth

Of the three companies, only Olympus publishes actual unit sales data for MILCs. For Sony, overall ILC market share and total ILCs shipped (CIPA) can be used to estimate unit sales of MILCs (which =ILC for them). For Canon, estimates are based on prior statements modified by statements about annual growth. So, Canon is not too far ahead of Olympus (close enough that they may rade back and forth for the #2 spot), while both Canon and Olympus are far behind Sony for overall MILC market share.

As for the overall ILC market, Canon remains at ~50% of total market share.


----------



## Talys (Feb 28, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> *Sony:* FY2015 - ~1.4M units; FY2016 - ~1.4M units; FY2017 - ~1.75M units
> *Olympus:* FY2015 - 510K units; FY2016 - 550K units; FY2017- 450K units
> *Canon:* FY2015 - ~350K units; FY2016 - ~425K units; FY2017 - unknown, but Canon stated they increased y/y with double-digit growth



Wow, that's a big hit on ILC sales for Oly in FY2017 - in the 20% range. 20%-ish growth for Sony too, very healthy there.


----------



## tmroper (Mar 1, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> "The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"
> 
> That's the only way you can get Canon to move.... they smelled the money and want their share of it... totally understandable.



Canon's been participating in the mirror-less market for a number of years now, capturing a share of the growth along the way. They've even been driving some of the growth. They just have to keep going and inovvating along with the others. And "innovation" does include pricing.


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 1, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> "The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"
> 
> That's the only way you can get Canon to move.... they smelled the money and want their share of it... totally understandable.



yeah because canon obviously hasn't moved before in the domestic market for mirrorless...


----------



## IglooEater (Mar 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> *Sony:* FY2015 - ~1.4M units; FY2016 - ~1.4M units; FY2017 - ~1.75M units
> *Olympus:* FY2015 - 510K units; FY2016 - 550K units; FY2017- 450K units
> *Canon:* FY2015 - ~350K units; FY2016 - ~425K units; FY2017 - unknown, but Canon stated they increased y/y with double-digit growth



Thanks Neuro! I find these things very interesting.


----------



## transpo1 (Mar 1, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> "The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"
> 
> That's the only way you can get Canon to move.... they smelled the money and want their share of it... totally understandable.



Yup. They finally realized what we 4Kers have been saying all along- cannibalize yourself or others will do it for you.


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 1, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> mistaspeedy said:
> 
> 
> > "The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"
> ...



sure that's why canon's been #2 for two years in a row in japan and well ahead of panasonic who's the darling of 4k and somewhere 4th or worse.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Mar 1, 2018)

I wonder if Canon is ever going to enter the *medium *format market.

FF mirrorless is hard because of great Canon EF range. The range is big and it's somehow a curse for Canon, because mirrorless FF would need adapters plus possibly totally new lenses. And why would I switch from my DSLR to mirorrless when I have native EF lenses for my DSLR and the benefits of mirrorless aren't that big?

Medium format mirrorless will require new lenses anyway so it's not a risk for the EF lens lineup, and Canon will be able to make an adapter for EF so that some of the EF lenses will work fine without significant vignetting.


----------



## mistaspeedy (Mar 1, 2018)

Many people want great photography AND video features. Any micro four thirds camera will fall short of the high standards set by APSC and full frame cameras for photography (goodbye Panasonic and Olympus). Since 8 megapixels is enough for 4K video, it is not too demanding for a smaller micro four thirds sensor and the accompanying glass to resolve that much resolution.

Canon medium format? The could make a huge 0.5x crop factor (2x width and 2x height of full frame) sensor, with some glass to match


----------



## kubelik (Mar 1, 2018)

I would be very happy to purchase the M50 except for the dearth of EF-M glass. everything starting at f/4 or f/3.5 and being variable aperture really doesn't cut it. yes, I know there's a single "fast" prime ... which is really a 35 f/2.8 equivalent so not that fast either.

would be interested to see a 32mm (50mm equiv.) f/1.8 prime or a 18-28mm (28-45mm equiv.) f/2 zoom (heck, at least f/2.8). I'd love to have this as a walkaround alternative to my 5D3 but right now with the lens speeds there's not a whole lot of difference at shorter focal lengths between the M-system cameras and my G7x.


----------



## ritholtz (Mar 1, 2018)

mistaspeedy said:


> Many people want great photography AND video features. Any micro four thirds camera will fall short of the high standards set by APSC and full frame cameras for photography (goodbye Panasonic and Olympus). Since 8 megapixels is enough for 4K video, it is not too demanding for a smaller micro four thirds sensor and the accompanying glass to resolve that much resolution.
> 
> Canon medium format? The could make a huge 0.5x crop factor (2x width and 2x height of full frame) sensor, with some glass to match


M50 is very nice for the price. We can see this for $500 levels on refurb store. Canon did offer lot of gear at ridiculous prices during holiday season. Official video showing various features. Pretty nice pics and tracking.
Like touch and drag feature, Canon should implement some gestures to change SS and A. No need to bother about any missing dials or buttons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADilGN7RUhM


----------



## Wolfloid (Mar 1, 2018)

> I would be very happy to purchase the M50 except for the dearth of EF-M glass. everything starting at f/4 or f/3.5 and being variable aperture really doesn't cut it. yes, I know there's a single "fast" prime ... which is really a 35 f/2.8 equivalent so not that fast either.



Yes, very poor lens selection, poor battery life, poor buffer seem to be holding Canon back in the mid-range, and of course, nothing in full frame. I am a Canon user, like the DSLR that I have, from a period when Canon was innovating (5D II), have a full complement of lenses, and yet I am seriously thinking of going with the Sony A7rIII or the new A7III. Even the Fuji XT2, with its excellent lens range is much more tempting than anything from Canon now. It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.


----------



## Talys (Mar 1, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.



Except, as rrcphoto and neuro just posted, they're not:


----------



## littleB (Mar 1, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> Yes, very poor lens selection, poor battery life, poor buffer seem to be holding Canon back in the mid-range, and of course, nothing in full frame. I am a Canon user, like the DSLR that I have, from a period when Canon was innovating (5D II), have a full complement of lenses, and yet I am seriously thinking of going with the Sony A7rIII or the new A7III. Even the Fuji XT2, with its excellent lens range is much more tempting than anything from Canon now. It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.


Why are you only whining here?

All your Canon equipment suddenly stopped working and you cannot make photos anymore? 
Are your Canon camera or lenses the main cause your photos are bad?

Whining alone will not make your photos better. Just go to Sony fanboy forum, you will be welcome there, feel much better, and in the end your photos made with sony equipment will be so much better.


----------



## tomri (Mar 1, 2018)

kubelik said:


> I would be very happy to purchase the M50 except for the dearth of EF-M glass.



Full ACK. For me, the existence of a decent standard zoom is entry criterion into a new camera system. And the lack thereof tells me that Canon is not serious about positioning the M series for the "advanced amateur" market.


----------



## Larsskv (Mar 1, 2018)

Talys said:


> Wolfloid said:
> 
> 
> > It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.
> ...



Can we trust this graphic? What happened to Panasonic? They are suddenly gone from one year to the next. And where is Fuji?


----------



## fentiger (Mar 1, 2018)

littleB said:


> Wolfloid said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, very poor lens selection, poor battery life, poor buffer seem to be holding Canon back in the mid-range, and of course, nothing in full frame. I am a Canon user, like the DSLR that I have, from a period when Canon was innovating (5D II), have a full complement of lenses, and yet I am seriously thinking of going with the Sony A7rIII or the new A7III. Even the Fuji XT2, with its excellent lens range is much more tempting than anything from Canon now. It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.
> ...


yeah, go buy the sony gear, then come back here moaning you cannot see the difference


----------



## Wolfloid (Mar 1, 2018)

> Why are you only whining here



I think the regulator should do something about you. I have no doubt that you would not say that to my face.

I have been a Canon user for ten years, and I am now looking to change cameras for the following reasons - I am fed up with the bulk and the weight, I am fed up with poor dynamic range and shadow banding, and in difficult lighting situations I want to see the exposure I'm getting, which is now possible. Oh yes, I also want a full range of focusing points, and a tilting mirror would be nice and I'd also like to use my Leica lenses. These are all completely objective points, and as you see there are plenty of them. 

It is not my fault that you do not seem to be able to recognise that others might have different priorities from you, or that you express yourself so coarsly, but I have as much right as you to express myself here. I am disappointed that Canon, despite my investment in their equipment, has not given me an easy route to the improvements I'm looking for. Obviously, if their attitude is anything like yours, I will simply take my money elsewhere - their loss.

Here is a comment from Tom Stanworth from the Fundamentalistphotographer website that I have just read and which articulates all the points I wish to make in an eloquent way (notice he uses arguments). Naturally, no one is forced to agree with him, but he makes compelling and pursuasive points 

http://thephotofundamentalist.com/a7-a7r/sony-a7-iii-the-volkskamera/#more-6163

See if you can read it.


----------



## Wolfloid (Mar 1, 2018)

> yeah, go buy the sony gear, then come back here moaning you cannot see the difference



And how old are you?


----------



## Talys (Mar 1, 2018)

Larsskv said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Wolfloid said:
> ...



The numbers come from the Japan BCN camera rankings:

https://www.canonnews.com/japan-bcn-results-are-out-canon-still-in-there-at-2-for-mirrorless-over-who-sony

https://www.dpreview.com/news/0966656912/2018-japan-bcn-camera-rankings-canon-dominates-dslrs-tops-sony-in-mirrorless

The BCN numbers only include top 3. The categories are digital cameras with lenses, DSLRs, and MILCs. Panasonic and Fuji don't make the cut; however, you can do the arithmetic for "other". 

For example, MILC -

Olympus (27.7%) up from 26.8%
Canon (21.3%) up from 18.5%
Sony (20.2%) up from 17.9%

Total for top 3 = 69.2; therefore others = 30.8.

You can see that as recently as 2011, Panasonic, Sony, and Olympus accounted for nearly all MILC sales. In 2015, Canon beat out Panasonic for the #3 spot, and has steadily grown since.

I'm perfectly fine with other surveys and numbers that might paint a different picture, but those claiming "Canon is bleeding sales to Sony" should quote some source for that instead of just saying it; otherwise, it simply sounds like "I like Sony's approach; therefore, they must winning customers."


----------



## Wolfloid (Mar 1, 2018)

I don't read the graph quite as sanguinely as you. This is, after all, as you say, only the Japanese market, and says nothing about the global market. As I see it, every purchse of a Sony A7 camera is a loss of a FF DSLR sale, and that mostly means Nikon or Canon. Sony has come into the market aggresively and that is having an effect on Canon's potential sales.

I see this as more of a pity than anything else, firstly, since I am invested in Canon lenses, and secondly as I like, and am used to the Canon UI and ergonomics. Had the 6D II not been so badly crippled by its old sensor, lack of joystick and focus point coverage, I might have been satisfied with the 155g weight saving on the 5DII.


----------



## Talys (Mar 1, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> I don't read the graph quite as sanguinely as you. This is, after all, as you say, only the Japanese market, and says nothing about the global market. As I see it, every purchse of a Sony A7 camera is a loss of a FF DSLR sale, and that mostly means Nikon or Canon. Sony has come into the market aggresively and that is having an effect on Canon's potential sales.
> 
> I see this as more of a pity than anything else, firstly, since I am invested in Canon lenses, and secondly as I like, and am used to the Canon UI and ergonomics. Had the 6D II not been so badly crippled by its old sensor, lack of joystick and focus point coverage, I might have been satisfied with the 155g weight saving on the 5DII.



The Japanese market is an extremely important one, because it's a huge market. Neuro provided global sales numbers, where Canon is also #2 in MILC sales, with Sony and Olympus switching positions.

Every purchse of a MILC is not a lost DSLR sale, because that assumes that some people don't buy both, since they excel at different things. For example, someone might love mirrorless for shooting weddings, but it's less likely that they'd love it to shoot football games.

With regards to the 6D2, it's an easy camera to pick on based on a spec sheet that seemingly falls short -- no different than the 6D, by the way. But both are a lovely cameras to own, a real joy to use even for hours at a stretch, and produces photographs that are no less stunning than any other camera when you have the elements of a good photograph in place.


----------



## MayaTlab (Mar 1, 2018)

Talys said:


> a real joy to use even for hours at a stretch



That isn't exactly my feeling when I use my 6Ds. Or most cameras for that matter. But particularly my 6Ds.


----------



## fentiger (Mar 1, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> > yeah, go buy the sony gear, then come back here moaning you cannot see the difference
> 
> 
> 
> And how old are you?



Depends, how old do you want me to be?
what I'm saying is take a photo with Canon and sony same subject same time, can you tell which camera took what


----------



## jolyonralph (Mar 1, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> > Why are you only whining here
> 
> 
> 
> I think the regulator should do something about you. I have no doubt that you would not say that to my face.



Ignore the fanboys. Most of us here are adult enough to discuss serious questions without insults.


----------



## BillB (Mar 1, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> I don't read the graph quite as sanguinely as you. This is, after all, as you say, only the Japanese market, and says nothing about the global market. As I see it, every purchse of a Sony A7 camera is a loss of a FF DSLR sale, and that mostly means Nikon or Canon. Sony has come into the market aggresively and that is having an effect on Canon's potential sales.
> 
> I see this as more of a pity than anything else, firstly, since I am invested in Canon lenses, and secondly as I like, and am used to the Canon UI and ergonomics. Had the 6D II not been so badly crippled by its old sensor, lack of joystick and focus point coverage, I might have been satisfied with the 155g weight saving on the 5DII.



You are right. The 6DII sensor lacks on chip ADC (but does have dual pixel Liveview), doesn't have a joystick, and its focus point coverage is what it is. On the other hand, Canon has been selling refurb 5DIV's consistently for $2700, and sometimes less than that. The refurb 5DIV costs more than the 6DII of your dreams, and it is heavier, but it is a heck of a lot more camera, at least as far as I am concerned. That was a good enough deal for me.


----------



## EduPortas (Mar 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> EduPortas said:
> 
> 
> > Now it's time for Canon to unleash the consumer mirrorless cameras that will sell a ton. Cheapish cameras
> ...



Yes, completely agree here. Those are exactly the "bells and whistles" I expect
Canon to come out with in the next 12 months. But it's hard to deny that 4K has become
a badge to sell more gear. Place it on the box and you've just doubled your sale's potential.


----------



## Mikehit (Mar 1, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> I see this as more of a pity than anything else, firstly, since I am invested in Canon lenses, and secondly as I like, and am used to the Canon UI and ergonomics. Had the 6D II not been so badly crippled by its old sensor, lack of joystick and focus point coverage, I might have been satisfied with the 155g weight saving on the 5DII.



The 6D2 has a new sensor and many who actually use it say it is better than the original 6D. And the AF coverage is barely smaller than other Canon FF cameras.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Mar 1, 2018)

Talys said:


> Wolfloid said:
> 
> 
> > It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.
> ...



Some of these numbers should take other factors into consideration.

In 2016, Japan was hit with a major earthquake. None of Canon's fabs were directly hit, but Sony's sensor fabs were directly affected. Olympus, Panasonic and many others utilize Sony sensors so this probably had a direct impact to their numbers both in 2016 and part of 2017. This is probably also reflected in the BCN awards for 2018 (which reports on CY2017 numbers). Canon gained mirrorless market share, but this may or may not be directly attributable to their push into mirrorless. I feel after 2018, we might have a better look into exactly where the trends are headed.


----------



## eninja (Mar 1, 2018)

IglooEater said:


> Seems that canon is acting very late if they're having to respond to a market that is already beginning to shift. And if their dslr lineup is to be cannibalized it would seem better that it would be so by a Canon product than that of a competitor. It's as if it took until recently to even recognize that mirrorless was going to be a thing.
> To give them credit, they seem to have caught on, and I expect to seem a great FullFrame mirrorless sometime



I think Canon intentionally playing dumb. They knew this is coming the whole time.


----------



## ritholtz (Mar 1, 2018)

tomri said:


> kubelik said:
> 
> 
> > I would be very happy to purchase the M50 except for the dearth of EF-M glass.
> ...


They need to make M version of 15-85mm and 17-55mm lens to start with. But these EF-S lens are very expensive at the beginning. Canon seems to be targeting users with limited camera budget and size conscious. Most probably we will get primes with reasonable price to complement slow zooms.


----------



## KirkD (Mar 1, 2018)

One of the disadvantages of coming late to the party is that many of the most efficient and cutting edge patents are gone. One must then come up with Rube Goldberg work-arounds that are more complicated and less effective and more expensive. I use Canon for still photography and Sony for videos. Canon might be great for high end videography, but for the average fellow on a tight budget, my little Sony a6500 beats Canon videography in both quality and cost. I wish Canon had something at least as good as the a6500, and they probably will in the future, but I need to shoot videos right now, not next year. The M50 is not even close to being in the same league as the a6500.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Mar 1, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> In 2016, Japan was hit with a major earthquake. None of Canon's fabs were directly hit, but Sony's sensor fabs were directly affected. Olympus, Panasonic and many others utilize Sony sensors so this probably had a direct impact to their numbers both in 2016 and part of 2017. This is probably also reflected in the BCN awards for 2018 (which reports on CY2017 numbers). Canon gained mirrorless market share, but this may or may not be directly attributable to their push into mirrorless. I feel after 2018, we might have a better look into exactly where the trends are headed.



The quake was in April, and Sony indicated that the effects were over by the end of FY2016.

[quote author=Sony]
...we are forecasting a significant improvement in profitability for FY17 due to an increase in unit sales resulting from greater adoption of dual-lens cameras and growth in sales to Chinese manufacturers, as well as the *absence of the impact of the Kumamoto Earthquakes*.
[/quote]

Therefore, while 2016 was somewhat anamolous, 2017 likely represents a return to normal. Which, for Canon, means further growth in MILC market share.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Mar 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> jayphotoworks said:
> 
> 
> > In 2016, Japan was hit with a major earthquake. None of Canon's fabs were directly hit, but Sony's sensor fabs were directly affected. Olympus, Panasonic and many others utilize Sony sensors so this probably had a direct impact to their numbers both in 2016 and part of 2017. This is probably also reflected in the BCN awards for 2018 (which reports on CY2017 numbers). Canon gained mirrorless market share, but this may or may not be directly attributable to their push into mirrorless. I feel after 2018, we might have a better look into exactly where the trends are headed.
> ...



Therefore, while 2016 was somewhat anamolous, 2017 likely represents a return to normal. Which, for Canon, means further growth in MILC market share.
[/quote]

The effects may have ended by the end of FY2016 to the impact on their revenue, but the real impact on market share can be seen in the numbers. Olympus went from 34.5% to 26.8% and Sony went from 24.8% to 17.9% in FY2016. They realized gains in FY2017, but was not able to make up the ground lost during FY2016. If products are heavily allocated or unavailable in retail, consumers likely went to an alternate choice.

If the earthquake was not a factor, Canon would likely still not be in second place and Olympus would likely still have a sizable advantage in first. Both Canon and Sony made similar gains in FY2017, but Sony dropped significantly the year prior due to the earthquake and put them in third place.

Let's see what happens in FY2018.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Mar 1, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> If the earthquake was not a factor, Canon would likely still not be in second place and Olympus would likely still have a sizable advantage in first. Both Canon and Sony made similar gains in FY2017, but Sony dropped significantly the year prior due to the earthquake and put them in third place.



Keep in mind you're referring to Japan-specific data. Globally, Sony holds the top spot in MILC market share, and they're a significant margin ahead of Canon and Olympus. 2016 was basically flat for them, and they had an increase of ~25% in 2017.


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 1, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> If the earthquake was not a factor, Canon would likely still not be in second place and Olympus would likely still have a sizable advantage in first. Both Canon and Sony made similar gains in FY2017, but Sony dropped significantly the year prior due to the earthquake and put them in third place.
> 
> Let's see what happens in FY2018.



or Sony would have remained around the same you have no idea, BCN is sold not shipped.

last year (2017) was not influenced by earthquake showed Olympus with a modest increase and both Canon and Sony with larger increases over the earthquake year of 2016. Last year all production facilities were back to full not not more. The production started up again around September of 2016, of which can be shown by CIPA data as the shipments for the last quarter of 2016 were massive compared to years past. By 2017, the earthquake was no longer a factor for sales.

so your theory falls a little flat, but good try.


----------



## dak723 (Mar 1, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jayphotoworks said:
> ...



The effects may have ended by the end of FY2016 to the impact on their revenue, but the real impact on market share can be seen in the numbers. Olympus went from 34.5% to 26.8% and Sony went from 24.8% to 17.9% in FY2016. They realized gains in FY2017, but was not able to make up the ground lost during FY2016. If products are heavily allocated or unavailable in retail, consumers likely went to an alternate choice.

If the earthquake was not a factor, Canon would likely still not be in second place and Olympus would likely still have a sizable advantage in first. Both Canon and Sony made similar gains in FY2017, but Sony dropped significantly the year prior due to the earthquake and put them in third place.

Let's see what happens in FY2018.
[/quote]

And why do you care whether Canon is #2 or #3 or even #5??

If you like what they offer, you can buy a Canon. If you like what Sony or Olympus offers, you can buy their cameras. Who cares where they are ranked? Apparently following the Camera sale standings is just another way internet forum users show how they have way too much time on their hands.


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 1, 2018)

dak723 said:


> jayphotoworks said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



And why do you care whether Canon is #2 or #3 or even #5??

If you like what they offer, you can buy a Canon. If you like what Sony or Olympus offers, you can buy their cameras. Who cares where they are ranked? Apparently following the Camera sale standings is just another way internet forum users show how they have way too much time on their hands.
[/quote]

they are kind of important to counter point the whining that customers are leaving x for y and that x is losing the plot and marketshare, and these people have zero information to back that up in the real world.


----------



## Talys (Mar 1, 2018)

BillB said:


> You are right. The 6DII sensor lacks on chip ADC (but does have dual pixel Liveview), doesn't have a joystick, and its focus point coverage is what it is. On the other hand, Canon has been selling refurb 5DIV's consistently for $2700, and sometimes less than that. The refurb 5DIV costs more than the 6DII of your dreams, and it is heavier, but it is a heck of a lot more camera, at least as far as I am concerned. That was a good enough deal for me.



There is one reason that I did not purchase a full frame model of camera before the 6D2 -- a fully articulating touchscreen (and even worse, Canon's fixed LCD on every FF model prior).

Canon will never be able to sell me a flagship body, no matter how wonderful it is, without this feature, that's been around since t3i 

I would also point out that for my purposes, a Rebel style full articulating screen is way, way more useful than an M5/D850/Sony style tilting screen. It's more important to me than whatever steps of DR, another 10 megapixels, or even full frame, because it dramatically improves my quality of life for tripod-based stills photography, when the camera is at difficult to access heights and angles.




dak723 said:


> If you like what they offer, you can buy a Canon. If you like what Sony or Olympus offers, you can buy their cameras. Who cares where they are ranked? Apparently following the Camera sale standings is just another way internet forum users show how they have way too much time on their hands.



I couldn't agree more that people should buy and use the cameras that they like, and ignore rankings for those decisions.

Their relative performance, however, is a point of debate when the discussion devolves to, "Canon is making terrible decisions and losing customers because of it." The performance tells us whether it actually comes down to, "I'm mad at Canon because they're not making the stuff that I want."


----------



## jayphotoworks (Mar 1, 2018)

dak723 said:


> jayphotoworks said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



And why do you care whether Canon is #2 or #3 or even #5??

If you like what they offer, you can buy a Canon. If you like what Sony or Olympus offers, you can buy their cameras. Who cares where they are ranked? Apparently following the Camera sale standings is just another way internet forum users show how they have way too much time on their hands.
[/quote]

Maybe we do, or maybe its just a part of us that missed out when there was a chance to sit on the high school debating team. It isn't because we have too much time on our hands, it is because we managed our time effectively from the things that are important in our lives and now we have time to spare...


----------



## Tugela (Mar 1, 2018)

Talys said:


> alienman said:
> 
> 
> > Wow canon behind Olympus, I understand this is my opinion but i think sony makes better mirrorless cameras than both the a9 and riii are tough to deny. How soon will it be before we see a Full Frame mirrorless from canon?
> ...



But the a7III is $2000 and it appears to be a VERY impressive camera. We can expect that technology to trickle down into 6000 line pretty soon as well, and that will be priced even lower. Stuff like the M50 is going to be competing against a crop sensor version of the a7III, and there is no question which camera will win that battle. With current specs the M series are going to be king of the bargain bin, but not much else.


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## Tugela (Mar 1, 2018)

eninja said:


> IglooEater said:
> 
> 
> > Seems that canon is acting very late if they're having to respond to a market that is already beginning to shift. And if their dslr lineup is to be cannibalized it would seem better that it would be so by a Canon product than that of a competitor. It's as if it took until recently to even recognize that mirrorless was going to be a thing.
> ...



The problem Canon has is that the underlying electronics in the camera is an area where they can't compete against the likes of Sony and Panasonic. That is why they are sticking so avidly to DSLRs, since those are less reliant on advances in electronics than MILCs. It is in Canon's interests to market that DSLRs are inherently superior, but they will only be able to do that for so long before the dam breaks and the market shifts.

I think that dam is very close to breaking now, and we are going to see a seismic shift in the market soon.


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## Ozarker (Mar 1, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.



The real pity is that many times people just make up "facts" because it fits better with their world view. The truth sometimes doesn't matter.


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## Mikehit (Mar 1, 2018)

Tugela said:


> The problem Canon has is that the underlying electronics in the camera is an area where they can't compete against the likes of Sony and Panasonic.



Anything to support that? 
Panasonic, Oly and Sony can do what they do by virtue of being mirrorless - Canon have stuch with DSLR so we don't really know what they are capable of.




Tugela said:


> I think that dam is very close to breaking now, and we are going to see a seismic shift in the market soon.



I recall people saying that 5 years ago.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 1, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > I think that dam is very close to breaking now, and we are going to see a seismic shift in the market soon.
> ...



Tugela thought that all Canon cameras with Digic 7 would shoot 4K, until they didn't. You need to take his statements with a grain of salt. Preferably more than a grain.


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## Talys (Mar 1, 2018)

Tugela said:


> But the a7III is $2000 and it appears to be a VERY impressive camera. We can expect that technology to trickle down into 6000 line pretty soon as well, and that will be priced even lower. Stuff like the M50 is going to be competing against a crop sensor version of the a7III, and there is no question which camera will win that battle. With current specs the M series are going to be king of the bargain bin, but not much else.



The a7III is not a competitor to any Canon mirrorless, much less the M50 -- it's nearly 3 times the price and it's full frame. It's a competitor to the 6D2 on one hand, and more so, to the A7R3 on the other.

In reality, there are few people who want to spend $2,000 on a camera body. The market for $500-$1,000 camera bodies is much larger. And by the way, a $740 camera body is not a "bargain bin camera" in any market.

The competitors to the M50/M5/M6 would be the a6300 and a5100. And neither are those "bargain bin" ILCs. With even a couple of kit lenses, we're talking cameras that surpass $1,000, which isn't exactly pocket change for most hobbyists.

Really, all of them are amazing tools that can produce award-winning photography and a reflection of a mature field of optics and sensor technology. To deride any of them or to view them with contempt is more a reflection of yourself than anything else.


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## eninja (Mar 1, 2018)

Tugela said:


> eninja said:
> 
> 
> > IglooEater said:
> ...



Didn't you know that canon designs they own processor? and image sensor? Canon's products are pure image related, their money are all in making imaging devices. What is hard to do electronics are in MILC that are not found in DSLR? Isn't it DSLR >> MILC - DSLR electronics is Superior to MILC.


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## transpo1 (Mar 2, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > mistaspeedy said:
> ...



Hey, I’m not saying they moved only because of 4K but it’s certainly one of the factors if they’re including it in the M50. 

In fact, if you read the post, it’s essentially about launching a “strategic” new camera at the risk of cannibalizing themselves. So pretty much spot on. 

It’s a strategic move to play defense to MILC competitors (whom they must fear) and an offensive move to snap up money. 

Yes, with 4K as a big factor.


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## Mikehit (Mar 2, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Hey, I’m not saying they moved only because of 4K but it’s certainly one of the factors if they’re including it in the M50.
> 
> In fact, if you read the post, it’s essentially about launching a “strategic” new camera at the risk of cannibalizing themselves. So pretty much spot on.
> 
> ...



Maybe I missed it, but I am not sure what they mean by 'strategic'. This can mean one of two things:
- a spoiler to make anyone thinking about moving to Sony think twice about it
- a marker round which future mirrorless will be developed 

Canon may in the short term concentrate on DSLR for their high end models (7D/5D/1Dx) and mirrorless a level below that.


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## transpo1 (Mar 2, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, I’m not saying they moved only because of 4K but it’s certainly one of the factors if they’re including it in the M50.
> ...



Yup. If you read between the lines, they are saying, “we are releasing a strategic new camera at the risk of cannibalizing ourselves so that others do not cannibalize us instead.” 

Even though they are #2 (by some accounts) in MILC- and some people make lots of noise about that- it’s clear this is what’s happening- they are scared of not being #2 and want to cash in on the mirrorless wave.


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## BillB (Mar 2, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



Well, they released the M50 because they thought it was a good idea. I don't know that means "they" are scared of anything. Being scared and wanting to cash in are two different things.


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## Mikehit (Mar 2, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Yup. If you read between the lines, they are saying, “we are releasing a strategic new camera at the risk of cannibalizing ourselves so that others do not cannibalize us instead.”
> 
> Even though they are #2 (by some accounts) in MILC- and some people make lots of noise about that- it’s clear this is what’s happening- they are scared of not being #2 and want to cash in on the mirrorless wave.



You know what they say about making assumptions...


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## Talys (Mar 2, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Even though they are #2 (by some accounts) in MILC- and some people make lots of noise about that- it’s clear this is what’s happening- they are scared of not being #2 and want to cash in on the mirrorless wave.



Since they were #3 just a couple of years and #4 or lower not long before that... perhaps they want to cash in on the mirrorless wave to be #1.


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## transpo1 (Mar 2, 2018)

BillB said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



I think the statement is pretty clear. We all know Canon- they have historically NOT cannibalized their DSLRs and now they’re willing to risk it. Why? Because someone else might do it. If there’s money on the table, they want to grab it, and that means it’s up for grabs which means they realize the possibility is there for someone else to grab it- hence, fear of not getting the money


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## Talys (Mar 2, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> I think the statement is pretty clear. We all know Canon- they have historically NOT cannibalized their DSLRs and now they’re willing to risk it. Why? Because someone else might do it. If there’s money on the table, they want to grab it, and that means it’s up for grabs which means they realize the possibility is there for someone else to grab it- hence, fear of not getting the money



What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there? Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?


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## transpo1 (Mar 2, 2018)

Talys said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the statement is pretty clear. We all know Canon- they have historically NOT cannibalized their DSLRs and now they’re willing to risk it. Why? Because someone else might do it. If there’s money on the table, they want to grab it, and that means it’s up for grabs which means they realize the possibility is there for someone else to grab it- hence, fear of not getting the money
> ...



Again, read the statement. They used the term cannibalization.


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## BillB (Mar 2, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



A key piece of the M50 technology seems to be the Digic 8, and the design of the Digic 8 would have begun several years ago. So, the M50 is the result a technology development strategy that has been underway for a while. It doesn't seem to me that Canon is running scared. It is just putting out new products, like it always has.


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## Mikehit (Mar 2, 2018)

BillB said:


> A key piece of the M50 technology seems to be the Digic 8, and the design of the Digic 8 would have begun several years ago. So, the M50 is the result a technology development strategy that has been underway for a while. It doesn't seem to me that Canon is running scared. It is just putting out new products, like it always has.



But that does not fit the meme that Canon does not innovate any more and only responds. It is therefore incorrect.


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## Talys (Mar 2, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



Except "they" isn't Canon, and it isnt' a statement. It's the Nikkei Asian Review, and the opinion of a writer there. I'm pretty sure that Canon would express their viewpoint differently 

I would be shocked if Canon actually thought, "we'd rather sell $500 entry level DSLR kits instead of $900 entry level mirrorless kits".


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## ahsanford (Mar 2, 2018)

Talys said:


> What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?
> 
> Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there?
> 
> Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?



I hear you, but I think you are reading the 'Canon is prepared to cannibalize SLRs' too specifically around the M50 and 4k. (In the near term, the 80D --> 90D would surely answer your 2nd and 3rd questions above.)

I think Canon was talking bigger than this present moment. I could be wrong, but I believe the press release / interview (whatever it was) was more about Canon scaling up and expanding its mirrorless ambitions _beyond EOS M_ -- flagged by some folks here as more of a PowerShot-based platform -- into the meat and potatoes elements of their SLR portfolio. 

Mirrorless products with similar footprint/controls/interface to SLRs are coming, and they'll be sold side by side against their SLR counterparts. _That's_ the cannibalization (I think) they were referring to. 

A mirrorless Rebel is not EOS M (and forget EF-S vs. EF-M for a minute, I am talking about the name and the company's backing of that name). Once a mirrorless product gets the Rebel moniker and is pushed with the might of the fully operational battlestation that is Canon, it will mark the beginning of the end of mirrors for Canon's volume/dollars workhorse.

- A


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## Talys (Mar 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?
> ...



Oh, I didn't really read it that way, but sure, I'll buy into some of that (minus the part that it wasn't actually Canon using the phrase cannibalize). I'll definitely buy into the last conclusion, whether or not it's called a Rebel, that in the end, mirrorless will dominate volume/dollars workhorse, simply because they are long-term cheaper to make, have a gentler learning curve, and allow for a smaller body. 

Cannibalization usually refers to a cheaper unit stealing sales from a more expensive one, because it can do all the important stuff for less money. In Canon's case, I suspect it will be the opposite. Alhough there will certainly be MILCs that are cheap, for a long time, th price point will be higher for Canon MILCs than equivalent in class Canon DSLRs.

So, though they'd unlikely use either term publically, I think the internal term is upselling 

I don't think Canon 'fears cannibalzation' as it does 'lower profits'.


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## BillB (Mar 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?
> ...



Canon bet on dual pixel sensor technology quite a while ago, and the big payoffs from dual pixel technology are in Liveview/mirrorless cameras, especially for video. I have no idea how Canon sees the future mix of DSLR and mirrorless, but it seems clear that Canon has been laying the foundation for a serious mirrorless presence for several years. One of the wild cards in the future mix between DSLR and mirrorless may be how important video is to people buying cameras, especially in the aps-c market. If video is a big deal for a lot of people, then I think that the switchover to mirrorless will be pretty fast. 

At the FF level, I am not so sure. Video doesn't seem to be part of Nikon's gameplan, and the FF Canon DSLR's are ok for video. So maybe the big action will be at the aps-c level.


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## ewg963 (Mar 4, 2018)

alienman said:


> Wow canon behind Olympus, I understand this is my opinion but i think sony makes better mirrorless cameras than both the a9 and riii are tough to deny. How soon will it be before we see a Full Frame mirrorless from canon?


I hope sooner than later because I've been waiting for a FF mirrorless from Canon for a while


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## ritholtz (Mar 5, 2018)

Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he6McUd6W1c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OskvGAj9p1Q


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## Talys (Mar 5, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.



I agree that no DPAF is a downer. _But this is a $740 camera_. I think it's fine in that context, because you must expect to bump into some limitations at that price.

I would say the two downers are no Eye AF in AI Servo mode (I think) and no DPAF in 4k video mode. 

But both would be good incentives to buy the next version up. Also, something to let Sony come in with a competitor at that price point -- as a6300/a6500 are much more expensive. And well, Nikon needs to get their act together for live view AF before they're part of that discussion.


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## C-A430 (Mar 5, 2018)

Wolfloid said:


> > I would be very happy to purchase the M50 except for the dearth of EF-M glass. everything starting at f/4 or f/3.5 and being variable aperture really doesn't cut it. yes, I know there's a single "fast" prime ... which is really a 35 f/2.8 equivalent so not that fast either.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, very poor lens selection, poor battery life, poor buffer seem to be holding Canon back in the mid-range, and of course, nothing in full frame. I am a Canon user, like the DSLR that I have, from a period when Canon was innovating (5D II), have a full complement of lenses, and yet I am seriously thinking of going with the Sony A7rIII or the new A7III. Even the Fuji XT2, with its *excellent lens range* is much more tempting than anything from Canon now. It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.



Fuji X has *wide* selections of lenses, but not _excellent_ lenses. Fuji X lenses are overpriced and often have serious optical flaws. Sorry for replaying to a 4 day old post, but this is a statement that I had to comment on.

Fujifilm XF 50-140mm f2.8 OIS costs $1,600 and I HATE its "look". It is not a bad lens, but its waaay overpriced and its not a portraiture lens. Sigma 50-100 f/1.8 is still the *only* portraiture zoom for crop cameras. It is much cheaper, faster and has more pleasant "look", especially for portraits. Same goes for other Fuji lenses. If you buy Canon 80D+FF lenses and FUJI T20+its native lenses with comparable price, Canon will produce better images although it uses half-native lenses (same mount but only 40% of the image circle).

Also X-trans sensors give weird output. Fujis great marketing motto of _no moire, no color distortion, no AA-filter and film-like image_ is a huge lie. They have sharpness like AA-filtered bayer sensors and suffer moire (almost?) as much as AA-less bayer sensors. Also, film-like comes from JPEG processing, there is nothing about x-trans raw files that is more film like than same CMOS tech in Nikon APS-C.

How can I trust you anything if your motto is a lie? What if it turned out that GH5 does line skipping? Or that 1DX misses focus 20% and dies from light rain?

I have a hard-on for a SEVERAL Fuji ideas - CMOS *pattern* bigger than bayer-2x2, 16-50mm kit, another, better f/2.8-4 kit, APS-C + mirrorless, company that has only ONE interchangeable-lens line-up (no FF). Everyone (on CR) wants Canon to do FF MILC. Thats the last thing I want them to do. I am even grateful that they decided to push one APS-C ahead of the other (ef-M gets more lenses than ef-S)


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## ritholtz (Mar 6, 2018)

Talys said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.
> ...


For me only thing missing is DPAF. I can live with the 4k crop. I have used crop (digital zoom) feature with my SL2. It gave me reach to shoot some stage play. Unfortunately there is no dpaf when this functionality used with SL2 as well.


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## C-A430 (Mar 7, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



That is a catch isn't it? Article says it as if they are quoting Canon, but they haven't actually quoted them. Regardless weather you believe Canon is nerfing their products you know that they would never say it. No marketing executive would use the word cannibalize. Headline is "Canon the king of DSLR", but between the lines they introduced the false confirmation that Canon under-equips their products for marketing reasons.

BTW, Sony is known for shady marketing practices (in and outside photography world), and it is Canon that is known for ease-of-use, reliability, durability and customer support. Sony is known for good things too, but when a Sony fanboy calls out Canon for shady marketing practices...


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## C-A430 (Mar 7, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > ritholtz said:
> ...



Why is no DPAF an issue? M50 is using phase detection AF in 4K, just as α6500. In 1080p it has DPAF, something no one has matched yet.

Sony and Panasonic NEVER use DPAF. Am I missing something?


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## ritholtz (Mar 7, 2018)

C-A430 said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...


I think, it is using contrast detection AF. It is early form of focusing with live view and slow. My t3i was like that. It has bunch of modes to help (using OVF phase detect AF) with live view. Pany and Nikon uses same contrast detection AF. It improved a lot over the time. Based on your experience, looks like Canon also doing fine with contrast detect AF with 4k.


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## 3kramd5 (Mar 7, 2018)

C-A430 said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...





Sony’s latest OSPDAF methodology is somewhere between masked pixels and split pixels. Theoretically it might improve well capacity relative to both of those technologies. There is some indication it is being used in cameras like a7iii.



http://www.techinsights.com/about-techinsights/overview/blog/survey-of-enabling-technologies-in-successful-consumer-digital-imaging-products/ said:


> Dual PDAF
> 
> It is a reasonable assumption that both masked PDAF and dual-PD-based systems could exhibit degraded performance in low-light conditions. In the case of masked PDAF, the lower fill factor of partially-masked apertures results in photon loss, as compared to a non-masked neighbor. In the case of dual PD, the twin PDs would require isolation from one another and the surrounding structures. The additional isolation results in an overall reduced full well capacity, as compared to a single PD implemented in the same pixel size.
> 
> Recent back-illuminated Sony chips have been found to use a new type of PDAF system that could be described as lossless. The 1.0 µm pixel generation Exmor RS chip in the Apple iPhone 7 Plus used a 1x2 microlens structure over two of eight pixel pairs in selected green-blue rows [16]. The wide microlenses cover a green filter in the Bayer pattern and a green replacement filter in the neighboring blue position. Two of 64 pixels in an 8x8 block use this lens structure and these blocks are distributed across ~95% of the active pixel array. A similar implementation of 1x2 microlenses were found in use in the Sony IMX398 from the Oppo R9s and have been dubbed “Dual PDAF”.



Found via https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60859607, where there is some fascinating analysis and discussion.


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