# Trying to start a Photography Business but surrounded by amateurs!



## Scott_McPhee (May 13, 2014)

I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:

*"Everyone's a photographer!"*

Seems these days if you buy yourself a cheap DSLR and know how to press the shutter you can call your self a professional photographer.
The quality of the prints doesn't seem to matter, or does the fact that they are pricing their "services" so low they are killing the decent photographers out there.

I am surrounded by these, one who tapes a white sheet to the wall, sticks a light on it and claims to shoot "state of the art high-key!"
Another is offering shoots at 50% of my cost and giving the client a CD with all of the shots on them.

Clients seem to be going for the cheaper price and ignoring the fact I am producing very high quality, professionaly shot photographs for only marginally more cost.

How do you deal with this in your location?


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## Khalai (May 13, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:
> 
> *"Everyone's a photographer!"*
> 
> ...



Every product has its buyer. Some buyers are budget-limited and will go for the cheapest, some seek quality and will pay appropriate price for it. Maybe you are targeting yourself at the wrong market...


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## jdramirez (May 13, 2014)

The problem is your sales department, which I imagine is you. You aren't successfully showing the added value of your services to the customer to make the price difference compelling.

Price is only a marginal factor in sales. More often than not, people want the best bang for their buck. 

Go grab market share. Coupons, promotions, word of mouth, etc. Get your name out there and have a high quality product and people will come back to you.

There is a reason most businesses don't make a profit in the first few years... because they are setting themselves up with a solid foundation. 

Also... market to groups that frequent these types of services... maternity wards, preschools, etc... make lasting relationships with customers so they don't feel like they are just a meat bag with money. 

Offer them free Facebook sized prints for upload and sharing. Feed their ego.... having omg, that is the cutest child ever, LIKE, will do more for your business than a print hanging in their living room.


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## jdramirez (May 13, 2014)

Also, I don't like the idea of sitting fees... maybe the kid is cranky or sick... or the bride is fat on this day.... So allow for some room for error... charge a shooting fee and if they don't love the images, the fee can be applied on their next visit.... which then gives you relay business.


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## Janbo Makimbo (May 13, 2014)

A good photographer wouldn't need to worry about amateurs


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## Orangutan (May 13, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:
> 
> *"Everyone's a photographer!"*
> 
> ...



You can't sell a Mercedes Benz to a customer with Kia tastes and/or budget. If you want to do Mercedes Benz level photography, it's YOUR job to find customers who want it and will pay for it. If you are unable to do that, it's entirely on you. Mercedes Benz has no cause to complain about too many Kia dealerships; they just need to create and market a product that will draw a different audience. Please read a bit about marketing. 

Better yet, if you know someone who is a salesperson, take them out for a drink and ask for a primer on persuasion. (I feel dirty now, I'm going to go wash-up  )


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## BoneDoc (May 13, 2014)

FWIW, your post does indicate some condesencion on your part. Photography is not an easy business to crack into. 

Much of your success in life will be related more to your ability to deal with people, albeit customers / clients, vendors, or just pretty much anyone you meet or have a relationship with. Learn this skill well, and learn to serve your customers and clients. In time, this will pay off.


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## RLPhoto (May 13, 2014)

In the end, you want affordable clients and not cheap clients. 

An affordable client will pay your fees even if they choose a much smaller package. A cheap client will pester you for more than what was contracted.

An affordable client will work with you on a budget. A cheap client will want you to foot the budget.

An affordable client understands they will get less photos for less money, but all the work is beautiful. A cheap client wants every shot edited, proof printed, delivered on CD at the sacrifice of quality and then will not like them, ask for reedits and re-prints. Afterwards they will take your shots and hand them over to someone else to slobber them with Instagram filters and post them as your work. :/

In the end, they can have the cheap clients. I'll take the budget/affordable clients anyday.


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## agierke (May 13, 2014)

> Go grab market share. Coupons, promotions, word of mouth, etc. Get your name out there and have a high quality product and people will come back to you.





> Also... market to groups that frequent these types of services... maternity wards, preschools, etc... make lasting relationships with customers so they don't feel like they are just a meat bag with money.





> Offer them free Facebook sized prints for upload and sharing. Feed their ego.... having omg, that is the cutest child ever, LIKE, will do more for your business than a print hanging in their living room.



No, no and no. these are all ways to cement yourself into low prices in a low paying market that competes with low charging, rebel wielding amateurs.

in most markets, its increasingly more difficult to find clients that pay well. you won't find them any faster by offering coupons, discounts and freebies. you will set up the expectation of continued discounts and freebies.

any further advice would greatly depend on what type of photography business you are trying to start up. are you looking to get commercial/advertising type of stuff with 1200.00+ day rates or are you trying to do private/family types of jobs? they are two very different markets and require different approaches.

two things that have helped me get higher rates is staying diversified and maintaining a professional network of photographers in my area. the diversity allows me to survive any lulls in business. i shoot corporate and collegiate events, commercial and advertising, weddings, head shots of all sorts, architecture, and product. if any one of those business streams starts to slow i can usually count on the others to pick me up. because i stay busy i dont feel the pressure to take low paying jobs. networking with other professionals also helps. i still assist and do second shooting for my fellow photographers when i am free. the relationships i have developed by doing this has gotten me my best paying work as when one of those photographers cant take a job they flick it to me. 

it takes time and patience to build a sustaining business. you have to know what your bottom dollar is though and have the discipline to say no to a rate that is too low. try not to worry about the low rate amateurs, even though they will keep coming out of the woodwork they never last that long. they literally price themselves out of the business.

private photography unfortunately is really difficult to reach decent wages unless you are doing massive amounts of work and have a support staff you can pay minimum wages. professional clients are harder to find but you will get better wages in the long run and won't run into as many rebel toting, discount waving amateurs. pursue professional businesses, doctors, lawyers, commercial real estate companies, universities etc. they will understand better the difference between a professional and an amateur and will pay better.

get a good website going and only show professional caliber work. do not rely solely on social networking sites like facebook...they aren't professional and real professional clients avoid them like the plague.


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## Orangutan (May 13, 2014)

BoneDoc said:


> FWIW, your post does indicate some condesencion on your part. Photography is not an easy business to crack into.
> 
> Much of your success in life will be related more to your ability to deal with people, albeit customers / clients, vendors, or just pretty much anyone you meet or have a relationship with. Learn this skill well, and learn to serve your customers and clients. In time, this will pay off.



+10

There are LOTS of photographers with the experience, skills and gear to do great work. What distinguishes successful mid- and upper-level photographers is their people skills. You must make your customers feel comfortable with the entire process, from first meeting to the shoot to writing the check.


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## mackguyver (May 13, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> BoneDoc said:
> 
> 
> > FWIW, your post does indicate some condesencion on your part. Photography is not an easy business to crack into.
> ...


+11? This is so true - there are a lot of mediocre photographers out there making tons of money because they are great to work with and market themselves well. There are also a ton of very talented jerks out there getting very little work.


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## jdramirez (May 13, 2014)

If he can seek out commercial work, go nuts. But I got the feel that wasn't the market he was going after. Market share is important, and once you get a foothold, you needn't continue to discount... but that's fine.



agierke said:


> > Go grab market share. Coupons, promotions, word of mouth, etc. Get your name out there and have a high quality product and people will come back to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## surapon (May 13, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:
> 
> *"Everyone's a photographer!"*
> 
> ...



Dear Friend Scott_McPhee .
The PRO call us " Uncle Bob"----That Include ME, ( Some times)---BUT only time that The Bride and Groom / My Close relative ask me to take the photos in their wedding for them, AND they truss me and do not like their Dad& Mom hire that Professional Photogrraphers.
BUT, My rules : When, I am at the Wedding, I( Camera gears in the trunk of my SUV) go to talk to the PRO , tell them that I am her uncle ( of the Bride), and the Bride & Groom want me to take the Candid Photos for them , Just for FUN. Yes, I tell them that I will not use Flash, And Use the Long Zoom lens at the back or at the Sides of their Photographers, Never at their front, or in their Pictures.----Tell them, If they do not like , Please go to tell the Bride to stop me, And I will not take any Photos. But If you stop me, There are 1,000 guests in this ceremony will use their I-Phones, Tablets, Canon 1DX or Nikon D4 to take the wedding photos any ways.

I do like this for last 20 years, And NO PRO will refuse my offer----Ha, Ha, Ha, EXCEPT ONE PRO, after they see my Photography Equipment include Canon 600 mm Lens that I use for shooting from the Balcony of the Sanctuary 300 feet from Altar, where the Wedding ceremony take place---In Candle light Lit, And He came to ask me to share these photos, Yes, I let him use my big lens with his Canon T3

If you are " Uncle Bob" like me, Please talk to The PRO first, before you interrupt their paid duty, BUT if you are the PRO, please understand that " USA, land, are the land of freedom---any one can do any thing / Under the laws, as their wishes---And You, THE PRO do not worry about UNCLE BOB, His photos might like the SH_T, when compare to the PRO like you. Let uncle BOB happy and smile in this wedding---YES, the Most important factors = Uncle Bob will spend $ 1,000 US Dollars to buy the prints from you, and give to Bride and Groom.

Just my IDEAS.---Only my Ideas---Many of our friends might have very difference Ideas.
Have a great work week, Sir.
Surapon

Wedding Photography Training: Dealing with Uncle Bob


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## anthonyd (May 13, 2014)

Hello Scott, I'm your worst nightmare! No, not really, I hope anyway that I'm not classified as an idiot with a rebel that calls himself a pro (because I neither have a rebel, nor do I call myself a pro).
However, inadvertently, I do take away some of your business because I price low since I have a day job and I do photography for fun. I could go completely free as a matter of fact, but I charge for three reasons: a) so that I don't create the "free photographer" reputation, b) so that I offset some equipment, and c) out of respect to you. Yeah, I'm not into the business of destroying your business.

Anyway, I have some advice for you as to how you can explain to the customer that you are better than me.

First, I don't have a real studio. I have lights, backdrops, props and stuff, but I convert my house into a studio when I have a gig. Show your high paying clients your studio and make a point about it. Somebody who's willing to pay top dollar would probably find my living-room studio a little stupid and your real studio more appealing.

Second, I don't have time to postprocess, since I have a day job. I do postprocess of course, and I do a lot of it, but that means that my clients have to wait for weeks before they get their pictures back. Show your client a before and after picture where you did magic in photoshop and tell them that they'll get this type of service from you and they'll get it fast.

Third, I don't have the volume of pictures to make any local printing store pay attention to me. Go to a local store and persuade them to give you a discount in return for doing all your prints there. Then offer the client complete solutions (albums, mugs for grandma, canvas, whatnot).

Fourth, I don't have time for photography all the time, so I have to squeeze my clients in my busy schedule. Offer them flexible scheduling and offer them to do things at their place, if they prefer (pregnant ladies like that, and so do parents of infants).

Finally, advertise yourself locally. Facebook might bring you customers, or it might bring you the wrong customers, but going to a maternity clinic and leaving a few cards with your contact info and a few nice maternity shots on them, could do miracles.


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## Scott_McPhee (May 13, 2014)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> A good photographer wouldn't need to worry about amateurs



I object to that one! Go look at my pictures before you start slagging me off.
This is something that is effecting us all.

Apart from the above comment, there are some great views in response to my original post.

I do charge a sitting fee and include in that a set of mounted, fully finished prints that the customer gets to choose and keep.
If they want extra prints or shots on canvas they pay for them.
To me, this is fair because the one hour sitting fee always goes beyond it, the shots are taken in their own home and they get virtually every shot I take to choose from.

To get clients in I could drop my prices or give "offers" but a friend of mine tried this by doing very low priced "intro" shoots - he then got a lot of backlash from customers wanting to know why his prices has suddenly gone up and from others who were not getting the same deal.
You can get stuck in budget-zone here and it can become very difficult to get your prices back up to a decent level. 
I would rather shoot less for more than more for less.

All around us there are people with cameras launching themselves as "Photographers" and it will continue to impact on the photography industry.
The attraction of "Instagram" type photos has taken the professional quality away from our work - as I seen on a recent shoot done by a rival that I thought had been shot on a mobile phone!

anthonyd - I work in the same way as you my friend, I respect your views 

This was really aimed at other opinions and methods for combating the pro-beginner as I call them.

For example, two photographers take a clients picture, one professional one pro-beginner.
Both shots are presented to the client - pro's looks amazing, costs $200 pro-beginner, rough $20.
Which print sells?


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## AcutancePhotography (May 13, 2014)

Can you answer, for me, one question?

"Why would I hire you instead of getting any of the other people doing the same thing?"

That is not an easy question to answer, but one necessary if you are going to open up your own business. If you can't answer this question clearly and quickly, you can't expect potential clients to answer it. 

But every day, you are requiring potential clients to answer that question by themselves. 

There is an interesting discusson on this very topic over on NikonRumors.com. You might want to check out that discussion also.


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## Orangutan (May 13, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I do charge a sitting fee and include in that a set of mounted, fully finished prints that the customer gets to choose and keep.
> If they want extra prints or shots on canvas they pay for them.
> <snip>
> For example, two photographers take a clients picture, one professional one pro-beginner.
> ...



Why do you assume all clients want any prints at all? Many people want electronic copies because that's the medium they use, whether for a screen-saver, digital picture frame or emailing around to family and friends. That's what many people want, not a static print that hangs in one place in one home.

The "pro" side of photography is a business: give the customer what they want at a fair price.


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## AcutancePhotography (May 13, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> The "pro" side of photography is a business: give the customer what they want at a fair price.



That is well worth repeating. 

I fear that there are some photographers who believe that the client should pay the photographer for what the photographer wants to shoot/how to shoot it. In the end the client is the one that determines the actual "quality" and "worth" of the picture.


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## Joe M (May 13, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:
> 
> *"Everyone's a photographer!"*
> 
> ...



The first thing you need to do is make a cup of cocoa. Find a comfy chair and then sit and sip. And breathe. Not to be sarcastic here, I'm just saying that this is something that you have to deal with and not let you get too worked up over as it's not as big a problem as one might think. 

The way to deal with these people is to ignore them, for the most part. You can't compete with them. Certainly not on price. Besides, they will get the customers that you didn't want anyway. Do you really want a customer who budgets $400 then begs you to give them the $2200 package because they want it but you shouldn't hold it against them that they can't afford it? No. Because you'll never pay for your equipment, let alone yourself, insurance, taxes, mortgage and so forth running ragged doing work for 1/4 of the price it's worth. These are the same people who rant that a photographer makes $300-400 an hour (and up) on a Saturday. They unfortunately don't realize the massive investment in real gear, computers along with the other expenses involved in legitimate business. I'm always (and you should be too) willing to work with a couple's budget but it has to be kept reasonable. 
You can't compete with a piece of paper and a rebel. Not until and unless someone comes along and realizes it's just not that "pro" looking and declines the shoot and calls you instead. Do you want the customer that is happy with OOC jpegs shot at iso 12800 from a rebel-type camera with AWB? No. Because they will be shown to all his/her friends, some of whom might see them for what they are and won't hire you. And again, some people these days are unfortunately happy with pics poorly shot (from our perspective) from basic equipment and that's there prerogative and fine for them. I feel no ill will to anyone who is happy with what they have. That's why there are BMWs and KIAs. 
Aspire to higher standards and those who want it will find you. And remember, some people aren't "pros" right from day one. They need to build the business and in order to do so, offer lower prices to build the portfolio and buy gear. Ideally, we all come out of school, shadow and work for a pro, buy all the gear we need, then start selling ourselves. Ideally isn't always how the world works. So this "wanna-be" might be real competition some day. I could go on and on really but that's the gist.

At some point you have to ignore this "competition" and pay attention to your real competition, other photographers in the business at or near your price point and quality. If for example, all wedding photographers at your level offer the images on a disc, you might have to or justify why not to your customer. If the majority charge extra for prints, you may have to or justify to your customer's satisfaction why yours are included or vice versa. And so on and so forth. Go out and advertize and make a name for yourself and put your efforts and concentration where it will do your benefit, working on your business. Spending time wondering how to eliminate these photographers will be a waste of time as they will always be there. Or at least until they go out of business and get replaced with the next person with a new camera. And eventually you'll be like me, not even knowing who these photographers are because I don't pay attention to them. They aren't my competition and I'm not theirs.


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## Joe M (May 13, 2014)

surapon said:


> Dear Friend Scott_McPhee .
> The PRO call us " Uncle Bob"----That Include ME, ( Some times)---BUT only time that The Bride and Groom / My Close relative ask me to take the photos in their wedding for them, AND they truss me and do not like their Dad& Mom hire that Professional Photogrraphers.
> BUT, My rules : When, I am at the Wedding, I( Camera gears in the trunk of my SUV) go to talk to the PRO , tell them that I am her uncle ( of the Bride), and the Bride & Groom want me to take the Candid Photos for them , Just for FUN. Yes, I tell them that I will not use Flash, And Use the Long Zoom lens at the back or at the Sides of their Photographers, Never at their front, or in their Pictures.----Tell them, If they do not like , Please go to tell the Bride to stop me, And I will not take any Photos. But If you stop me, There are 1,000 guests in this ceremony will use their I-Phones, Tablets, Canon 1DX or Nikon D4 to take the wedding photos any ways.
> 
> ...



If you are an uncle Bob at a wedding I shoot and bring your 600mm lens, and let me borrow it, I will let you stand wherever you wish  
The only uncle Bob's I have problems with are the ones who were going to shoot the wedding but at the last minute the couple panics and thinks a pro might be the way to go. Then poor Bob's feelings get hurt and he still tries to shoot the wedding like it's his. That's when I have to start (like in the video you attached) have to unfortunately start stepping in front of him/her. Thank goodness that's been very rare. And you're right, there are lot's of uncle Bobs at weddings and you have to learn very quickly how to get over that and work around it if needed because it's not something that will every go away. 
And nice to hear you , surapon, are a considerate Bob. But I'm not surprised. From the posts of yours that I've seen, you seem like one of the most polite and considerate people I've never had the pleasure of meeting.


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## jdramirez (May 13, 2014)

I think the simple answer to this is... catalog. Your last work will warrant a premium for your future work. 

Make sure your catalog is stunning and blows away the competition.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 13, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:
> 
> *"Everyone's a photographer!"*
> 
> ...



You are correct about people who think that by going out and purchasing a DSLR, are flooding the market with low cost photography offers.


Its been going on for several years, so any one planning to start a photography business needs to be aware of this before investing time and energy into yet another photography business. Professional photography businesses are dropping like flies. Newspapers and other media now source a lot of their material from amateurs who send in photos and videos for free!

My first thought is that anyone trying to start up a photography business was first a amateur. They are not all made equally, of course, but they are welcome to try, some are talented, and word of mouth spreads quickly. Others are not and only catch a few fools looking for a bargain. 

Perhaps I did not understand your post and you have worked for someone else for a few years, or are you another just trying to get into business for the first time?

To gain a foothold, you will need to advertise your work, not only by using social media, but thru TV and local magazines / newspapers. Be sure to show examples of your work. A mass mailing will bring in a lot of new business as well, and that can cause a lot of secondary word of mouth business.

Its tough, and being a businessman first and a photographer 2nd is a must.


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## Don Haines (May 13, 2014)

Joe M said:


> surapon said:
> 
> 
> > Dear Friend Scott_McPhee .
> ...



I've been "Uncle Bob" at a couple of weddings... except I go talk to the photographer and offer to be an unpaid second (or third) shooter for the day and tell them they can copy my memory cards at the end of the day and use the pictures... Far better to be an assistant than an annoyance... and a second shooter who knows who in the crowd is important is a valuable asset.


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## Quasimodo (May 13, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:
> 
> Clients seem to be going for the cheaper price and ignoring the fact I am producing very high quality, professionaly shot photographs for only marginally more cost.
> 
> How do you deal with this in your location?



The way I deal with this is that I try to get all the clients I can get. Being a keen amateur who loves to take pictures and to have great equipment, I pick up the assignments I can to nurture this habit of mine. 

Seriously, photography is not a mercantilistic marked. Be good at what you do, market your skills. A client will always want to know why you charge higher. The burden of this proof lies with you.


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## emag (May 13, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> I've been "Uncle Bob" at a couple of weddings... except I go talk to the photographer and offer to be an unpaid second (or third) shooter for the day and tell them they can copy my memory cards at the end of the day and use the pictures... Far better to be an assistant than an annoyance... and a second shooter who knows who in the crowd is important is a valuable asset.



Exactly.


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## Quasimodo (May 13, 2014)

anthonyd said:


> Hello Scott, I'm your worst nightmare! No, not really, I hope anyway that I'm not classified as an idiot with a rebel that calls himself a pro (because I neither have a rebel, nor do I call myself a pro).
> However, inadvertently, I do take away some of your business because I price low since I have a day job and I do photography for fun. I could go completely free as a matter of fact, but I charge for three reasons: a) so that I don't create the "free photographer" reputation, b) so that I offset some equipment, and c) out of respect to you. Yeah, I'm not into the business of destroying your business.
> 
> Anyway, I have some advice for you as to how you can explain to the customer that you are better than me.
> ...



Well put!


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## mackguyver (May 13, 2014)

Quasimodo said:


> anthonyd said:
> 
> 
> > Hello Scott, I'm your worst nightmare! No, not really, I hope anyway that I'm not classified as an idiot with a rebel that calls himself a pro (because I neither have a rebel, nor do I call myself a pro).
> ...


I have a different strategy altogether. I'm a part-time pro and 80% of my advertising is by word of mouth and the other 20% is from donation of my services or work to charities. Note that I don't have any commercial work on my website and don't have a Facebook page. I don't have a studio, either, but all of my gear is ready for travel. I price at regular commercial rates and produce unique and high quality work that keeps my services in demand. Most importantly, I solve my customer's problems. That could mean getting shots no one else wants to get, doing weeks of work in a few days, fulfilling and installing special print orders, or just about anything else they might need that is related to photography, including giving them referrals to other good photographers when I'm busy or don't do that kind of work. In terms of time, I work nights or weekends to make sure I get their work back to them quickly as is expected in today's world. I shoot as technically perfect as possible so my work can be used for their website or billboards, which has been the case with one client.

I don't nickel & dime or charge sitting fees & overpriced print fees. My work is expensive, but comes with an exclusive perpetual license. They can do anything other than re-sell my work which saves us both the headache of additional licensing costs and coming back to me anytime they want to use them. I feel that I protect the market, make good money, and have fun by working this way. It's not a strategy for everyone but I've been successful with it.


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## sagittariansrock (May 13, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> For example, two photographers take a clients picture, one professional one pro-beginner.
> Both shots are presented to the client - pro's looks amazing, costs $200 pro-beginner, rough $20.
> Which print sells?



As a consumer, I'd say the amazing $ 200 from the pro.
Because nowadays everyone has the equipment and know-how to produce a rough $ 20 image. It doesn't impress anyone any more.

I went to JCP portraits the other day- my first venture there. It was shot professionally, but the photos weren't great- even I can do better. I am much more likely to spend $$ next time and visit a proper professional for my next studio session.

Great suggestions from Anthony- and I shall reiterate. Just advertise your work, be a great guy to work with, and I am sure you will be a fantastic resource to your community.
Loved your high key photos. Maybe add some great ones of pets, too (your dog is beautiful- maybe some more situations, and cropped better?).


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## Chuck Alaimo (May 13, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> Janbo Makimbo said:
> 
> 
> > A good photographer wouldn't need to worry about amateurs
> ...



There are lots of things to say to this whole topic. First off, where do you draw the line between pro, emerging pro, beginner, and uncle bob? Would you concede that most pros got their starts as uncle bob? I mean - at least here in the US there is no formal system for training and certification for photogs. Going to college doesn't do it unless you want to learn how to shoot B&W still lifes - in the US if you want to go the school route it's better to go for classes in small business and economics and just buy a camera and learn that end on your own or find a pro and learn under them. With that said, Im not bashing those who went to college with photography as their major, just saying that the bulk of the pros I know did not go that route.

Even if you train under a master, when you break out on your own your still going to be in the lower price bracket and that does come with it's challenges. To use you last statement, but I will alter it a tad - "For example, two  _three_ photographers take a clients picture, one _high level_ professional, one _low leve_l professional, pro-beginner. Shots are presented to the client -_High level pro are perfect but also came at the extra cost of having assistants present to hold lights and reflectors but total cost of the shoot was closer to $600 _ pro's looks amazing, costs $200 pro-beginner, rough $20. Which print sells?" 

The answer - is ---- it depends! the lowest end client will most likely buy nothing more than what was originally agreed upon, and they will want the RAW files and all of them edited. The mid range will buy that $200 print, but that's that - its not that they don't want more its just all that they can afford. The $600 client will buy a large print mounted to metal or acrylic or a stretched canvas and a small album. 

Now with all that said - here in the US we have another factor at play - the big box store portrait studio. the good old JC penny, walmart, sears, etc, etc. These large scale entities will charge less than uncle bob and offer more in product, but less in shooting time. this is where the competition really is because this is where most people go for their portraits (think about it, how many family pictures are taken at big box stores....).

As to prices, I don't see any issues with offering sales. Will it rub some the wrong way? Sure, but this is the way business works - all business's offer sales. If you buy a pair of shoes for $90 then a week later see they are on sale for $60 do you rush into the store and raise hell, or do you sigh and say thats the way the cookie crumbles? I've been a creative live Junkie lately and that's one of the pieces of advice Scott Robert Lim gave - to paraphrase - it's a lot easier to offer a sale than it is raise the cost when it's listed. If your trying to push to the next pricing tier sales are helpful because your referral base will be based on the lower prices. i'm in that stage with my wedding business, and yeah this season is hurting because I've had to turn down so many $1000 brides when I really want $3000 brides, so in the end I get $2000 brides (because of incentives).

Lastly here, and i hope you don't take this the wrong way, but your post here puts you into the amateur column! You are kind of what your complaining about in the eyes of pro's who are ahead of you. That $600 pro may be saying the same thing about you as you are saying about the $20 guy. that's not a dis, just putting it in perspective, that you are emerging and finding your place and you are in a saturated market ---- the best advice I have on that which is the path I am taking is find a way to make your work stand out. Brand yourself, make people want what you do which is as many say here more than just about the photography. Make people feel special, offer great customer service and find ways to make your images stand out. and don't get pissed about the lower end guys, they will always be there and more than not - you don't want that client anyways!


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## AcutancePhotography (May 13, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:
> 
> *"Everyone's a photographer!"*



Not to be overly cynical, but you are the "amateur who wants to be a pro" that the already established pros were bitching about last month. ;D

And so the cycle continues. ;D

Good luck with it. As I have posted many time, I think that being a professional photographer is a tough way to make a living and an easy way to kill a hobby.

Good luck, I hope you make it.


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## neuroanatomist (May 13, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Can you answer, for me, one question?
> "Why would I hire you instead of getting any of the other people doing the same thing?"



This is the key, IMO. I have three kids, and I have the gear necessary to take good portraits of them. Still, every year I take them to a local studio for Easter/Spring portraits. Compared to the studio, at home I have better lights and modifiers, a better camera, better lenses, a more comfortable setting, more time to take the pictures, more time to post-process the images, and I can get prints cheaper through Mpix.

So, why do I take them to a studio for Easter pics? Two words…LIVE BUNNIES.


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## Orangutan (May 13, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Can you answer, for me, one question?
> ...



I'm surprised you weren't aware that LensRentals now stocks live bunnies.


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## jdramirez (May 13, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Can you answer, for me, one question?
> ...


Are we talking about the bunny ranch... because I wouldn't take my kids there... though I'd happily spend Easter with some bunnies.


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## jdramirez (May 13, 2014)

It isn't about the gear.... always... my kid will make goofy faces at me because she assumes my time isn't worth as much as a photographer's... then she gets in trouble and the day is ruined... So it can be worth having someone else tame the kid's photos.


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## East Wind Photography (May 13, 2014)

This has been going on for years since the affordable development of the personal camera. It is nothing new that has come about since the digital revolution.

Only the fittest survive my friend and there is not much that can be done about it except to change your attitude about the matter. I agree with other posters here that its about people management and often word of mouth referrals.

Photography is not the only profession that suffers from this. Make your customers happy and they will boast to all of their friends about the wonderful job you did.


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## drummstikk (May 13, 2014)

I was once gainfully employed in a dying industry -- book publishing. After several months of escalating mutual hatred between myself and my employer, they gave up trying to build a paper trail on me and offered me 6 months salary if I would just LEAVE. Having a recent track record of several years making between 10-15 grand a year on a dozen odd weekends without even really trying that hard, I took their kind offer went freelance in 2006. This, by my reckoning, was precisely one year before I and every other pro in the market was devoured by the beast that goes by many names: "Timmy's Mom." "Lisa's Dad." "Billy's uncle."

Yes, the youth sports photo market deserted me right when I needed it most. Photography is unique in this way as far as I know. Every week, people go out and buy a Rebel kit on Saturday, *maybe* read part of the manual while on the crapper on Sunday, and then start handing out business cards on Monday. Since these people have "day jobs" they have no concept of what the price of the services they plan to offer are worth ("Is $50.00 for a wedding too much?") and drive their local market down by working for hobby prices. Nobody invests in a set of tools and then starts doing auto repair or carpentry or plumbing for cheap or free. But this happens in photograph ALL THE TIME.

As much as this is a kick in the gut to people like me who have honed their craft for over three decades, I can't whine about it. I could hope for amateurs to respect the craft, learn something about the business they are pushing in on, and at least charge a fair price. And, while yer at it, let's have peace in the middle east and the *WORLD SERIES CHAMPION CHICAGO CUBS.*

If you still get the job asking a fair price, then congratulations, you've beaten me in the marketplace fair and square. But it you are giving your work away or charging hobby rates, you are hurting somebody, whether or not you even know who he or she may be.

The reality as I have found it to be in recent years is that photography skills are secondary (distantly) to marketing skills. Which is precisely why I get my butt kicked every year. I suck at marketing and always will. I don't have the personality for it. The thought of "developing my brand" makes me nauseous.

But I love the work and can't walk away. I make far too much money at photography to just leave on the table, but not enough to live on. So, I do my one-off jobs and service my contracts for part of my income, and clean toilets and mow grass for the rest and for insurance. That's my choice and I am not crying over it. Damn sure nobody else is.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 13, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Can you answer, for me, one question?
> ...


 
I'm loaded with live bunnies, we have two does and a buck, June is coming, and bunnies are popping out all over. I'm eating one as I surf CR right now.


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## Janbo Makimbo (May 13, 2014)

I find your topic a bit offensive really... There are Pros and Pros... One mans Pro is another mans amateur!!


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## jdramirez (May 13, 2014)

I was on prostituterumors.com the other week... and there were some prostitutes complaining about the same thing. Something about "just giving it away"... so photography isn't the only industry affected by an influx of amateurs.


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## Tabor Warren Photography (May 14, 2014)

Hi Scott,

To preface: I booked 1 wedding in 2012, 8 in 2013, and now approaching 40 so far for 2014. I actually began as a 'faux'tographer with a T1i and kit lens, but I have upgraded along the way. Just last December, I left my doctoral program, my wife left her job as a CPA, and we both pursue wedding and portrait photography full time and have actually begun hiring employees to help with growth. It was difficult to get away from the amateurs, yes, but once out there is no turning back for us.

Do you have a website where your work is stored? Also, what type of work are you wanting to dominate the market for?

I would love to help pitch some ideas your way.

All my best,
-Tabor


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## dancook (May 14, 2014)

drummstikk said:


> I could hope for amateurs to respect the craft, learn something about the business they are pushing in on, and at least charge a fair price.
> 
> If you still get the job asking a fair price, then congratulations, you've beaten me in the marketplace fair and square. But it you are giving your work away or charging hobby rates, you are hurting somebody, whether or not you even know who he or she may be.



Who are the amateurs you refer to?

Friends and family have asked me to take photos (portraits,baby,pets) - payments have included a Jessops voucher and a bottle of gin.

I have two friend's weddings to shoot this year. The latter one will be booking my Wife and I a room at the venue, which is payment enough.

My barber would like photos of her and her horse, she's mentioned it on my last few visits over several months - I haven't committed to anything though.

The weddings I was reluctant to accept, but other low pressure scenarios (baby photos, pets) - I'll jump at the opportunity to get experience.


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## koolman (May 14, 2014)

This is a great topic. Taking pictures is one thing - running a business is something totally different.

Like many others here already mentioned - there are many components about getting people to pay you for your work. It is very much a function of the clients PERCEPTION of your service.

The client needs to perceive that he is getting a good deal, that you are special, that he too is special and will get the best service from you. There need to be added value factors to the overall package beyond just getting pictures such as Bunnies  , gifts, a surprise extra enlargement, etc. etc.

Selling yourself and your service - are not things you learn in a photography class. Closing a deal, making sure you get paid, getting more leads, are all part of what you learn in business school.


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## Old Sarge (May 14, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'm loaded with live bunnies, we have two does and a buck, June is coming, and bunnies are popping out all over. I'm eating one as I surf CR right now.


As I recall from my childhood, two does and one buck kept a family of four eating rabbit at least once a week for most of the year (we may have froze some for the winter). And I haven't ate rabbit since those days.


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## Logan (May 14, 2014)

drummstikk said:


> I was once gainfully employed in a dying industry -- book publishing. After several months of escalating mutual hatred between myself and my employer, they gave up trying to build a paper trail on me and offered me 6 months salary if I would just LEAVE. Having a recent track record of several years making between 10-15 grand a year on a dozen odd weekends without even really trying that hard, I took their kind offer went freelance in 2006. This, by my reckoning, was precisely one year before I and every other pro in the market was devoured by the beast that goes by many names: "Timmy's Mom." "Lisa's Dad." "Billy's uncle."
> 
> Yes, the youth sports photo market deserted me right when I needed it most. Photography is unique in this way as far as I know. Every week, people go out and buy a Rebel kit on Saturday, *maybe* read part of the manual while on the crapper on Sunday, and then start handing out business cards on Monday. Since these people have "day jobs" they have no concept of what the price of the services they plan to offer are worth ("Is $50.00 for a wedding too much?") and drive their local market down by working for hobby prices. Nobody invests in a set of tools and then starts doing auto repair or carpentry or plumbing for cheap or free. But this happens in photograph ALL THE TIME.
> 
> ...



I have to respectfully disagree with you on the point that this is a photography-specific problem. I'm a fabricator, and every week there is some new welder, fresh out of school or no school at all, buys a truck and slaps a welder on it, charges 70$ an hour. Now in a shop with a few million dollars worth of equipment and an electric bill that would make you gasp, you cant charge that little. You have to charge a bit more. Do you lose business to the guy with the truck? yes. Does it matter? No. He ends up screwing up jobs that come to you to get fixed, or doesn't have the tools to do it right, or it takes him 3 hours to do what you can do in 1. 

Switch back to photography, after they have a bad experience with your underpriced competition, they will be happy to pay your rates with less moaning then if they had come straight to you. If the competition does work the customer is 100% happy with for 10% of your price, then they would have been horrible customers for you, complained about the price, and not appreciated the work.

The OP may be in a situation where there simply is a market for cheap photography and is no market for his overpriced crap (in the eyes of the market). Like others have mentioned, Mercedes doesn't compete with kia, and kia dominates some markets entirely. I also agree that he IS the amateur the pros are complaining about, could it be that the established pros are posting on another forum "what to do about overcharging amateur giving us a bad name" I have been in both situations as a customer, sometimes you have money to burn on an event and need world class photos for marketing, and you pay a pro. Sometimes you just need a live body with a camera taking pictures that isn't you, in that case someone with a rebel and a 50$+Beer day rate is what you need, and no amount of marketing will make you need a more expensive photographer, in that case the photographer has a market problem, not a marketing problem.


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## AcutancePhotography (May 14, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> I was on prostituterumors.com the other week... and there were some prostitutes complaining about the same thing. Something about "just giving it away"... so photography isn't the only industry affected by an influx of amateurs.



Well played! (golf clap) ;D


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## grimson (May 14, 2014)

Examples of real 'pro's';
http://youarenotaphotographer.com/

fauxtographers 

I like good gear but definitely do not advertise myself as a 'pro'. Just for my family!


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## terminatahx (May 14, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:
> 
> *"Everyone's a photographer!"*
> 
> ...



Stop fishing in the low end pond. Focus on the more demanding clients that are willing to pay more. For me, I get less business, but the pay is much better. Trying to compete with substandard photographers that take shortcuts and engage in pricing wars is the wrong pond to fish in. Because they have all the "so-so" work covered. If your work is above par, and you can reach the clients that demand it, you'll prosper.


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## sanjosedave (May 14, 2014)

OP, show us your web site and examples of your work.

Have you created a business plan?

How many portrait photographers are in your geographic area?
How many wedding photographers?
How many corporate/commerce photographers?
How many fashion photographers?
How many sports photographers?

Does your web site show your studio?

Do you blog about your specialty?

What is the annual household income of your geographic area? NYC prices would not be the same prices as Hoxie, KS

Are you volunteering at your County Veterans Centers by doing Vets portraits for LinkedIn?


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## AcutancePhotography (May 14, 2014)

grimson said:


> Examples of real 'pro's';
> http://youarenotaphotographer.com/
> 
> fauxtographers



The pictures and comments are funny, but stay away from the forums on that site. Yikes talk about a whine fest!


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## surapon (May 14, 2014)

Joe M said:


> surapon said:
> 
> 
> > Dear Friend Scott_McPhee .
> ...



Thanks you, Sir, Dear Friend Joe M, Your Great Words will make my days and Weeks.
I just write the Post from bottom of my heart, and Hope that My Tiny expertise/ Tricks might help some of our dear friend , some ways.
Have a great day, Sir.
Surapon


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## surapon (May 14, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Joe M said:
> 
> 
> > surapon said:
> ...



Dear Sir, My friend Don Haines .
WOW, That are a great IDEA, "except I go talk to the photographer and offer to be an unpaid second (or third) shooter for the day and tell them they can copy my memory cards at the end of the day and use the pictures "---Thank you , sir= I will do next time, and use your Fantastic Idea= Great Both ways for the PRO and us, Plus in your case, The PRO will love your PHOTOS, and offer money to pay your in next wedding as the Staff.
Long, Long time ago, I volunteer with the PRO/ Wedding Photographer as the Light Man and Use my Point and shoot Camera to record the Way of the PRO work, and give the copy of my photos to them too, for their record. Yes, Sir, I have learn from them, what are they doing, And Use with my own technique to improve for my Tricks.
Yes, Sir, I tell my friends/ Photographers about this way that I learn, Most of them laugh at me, Tell me that, What in the world to do the slave job with out paid----Ha, Ha, Ha, They are wrong---In my IDEA, But they so proud of them self.
Nice to talk to you, Sir.
Have a great week.
Surapon


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## Cptn Rigo (May 14, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Scott_McPhee said:
> 
> 
> > I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:
> ...



+1

I get the same idea while reading the OP, you are the amateur trying to be pro... just as the rest


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## East Wind Photography (May 14, 2014)

surapon said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Joe M said:
> ...



I usually just show uncle bob where the bar is and encourage him to enjoy himself.


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## Chuck Alaimo (May 14, 2014)

Cptn Rigo said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Scott_McPhee said:
> ...



I'd say emerging pro. Or entry level pro. There is no real definition for pro in photography so we have to fall back to ----your pro if you make money through photography. Some will take that further to say you have to have your primary source of income be photography to be called pro. Just saying there's levels. If you've been shooting since 1972 then your a veteran pro. But if your 4 years in, your still emerging...a pro can be at 25K a year, or at 500K a year...

and pro is not defined by those that don't complain about competition...because there is always someone out there to undercut you, regardless of your price point....


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## surapon (May 15, 2014)

Dear East Wind my friend.
Ha, Ha, Ha---I love your words " I usually just show uncle bob where the bar is and encourage him to enjoy himself.  "----- Yes, Me too, I will keep my camera gears in the trunk of the car, and tell my wife go enjoy the wedding party, And I will head to the Bar/ Wedding Party that Provide us a hard Liqueur/ Whiskey or Import Beers, After couple hours, Just Hand her my car key, and let her drive me home( I just take a short nap in the car)----No, Please do not worry, My Car = H1 Hummer, and No one on the street want to mess with her.
Have a good night, Sir.
Surapon.
PS, Let The PRO do the great PHOTOS, And as the Hobbiest like us, We enjoy our Life, and do not worry.


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## CarlMillerPhoto (May 15, 2014)

Logan said:


> I'm a fabricator, and every week there is some new welder, fresh out of school or no school at all, buys a truck and slaps a welder on it, charges 70$ an hour. Now in a shop with a few million dollars worth of equipment and an electric bill that would make you gasp, you cant charge that little. You have to charge a bit more. Do you lose business to the guy with the truck? yes. Does it matter? No. He ends up screwing up jobs that come to you to get fixed, or doesn't have the tools to do it right, or it takes him 3 hours to do what you can do in 1.
> 
> Switch back to photography, after they have a bad experience with your underpriced competition, they will be happy to pay your rates with less moaning then if they had come straight to you. If the competition does work the customer is 100% happy with for 10% of your price, then they would have been horrible customers for you, complained about the price, and not appreciated the work.
> 
> The OP may be in a situation where there simply is a market for cheap photography and is no market for his overpriced crap (in the eyes of the market). Like others have mentioned, Mercedes doesn't compete with kia, and kia dominates some markets entirely. I also agree that he IS the amateur the pros are complaining about, could it be that the established pros are posting on another forum "what to do about overcharging amateur giving us a bad name" I have been in both situations as a customer, sometimes you have money to burn on an event and need world class photos for marketing, and you pay a pro. Sometimes you just need a live body with a camera taking pictures that isn't you, in that case someone with a rebel and a 50$+Beer day rate is what you need, and no amount of marketing will make you need a more expensive photographer, in that case the photographer has a market problem, not a marketing problem.



+1. Pretty accurate understanding of market competition, imo.


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## Roo (May 15, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> grimson said:
> 
> 
> > Examples of real 'pro's';
> ...


+1. Even a lot of the comments are a whine fest. It seems to be populated by a lot of jealous people.


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## AcutancePhotography (May 15, 2014)

Interesting how photographers from all systems have the same discussions at the same time. Over on Nikonrumors there is an identical conversation. I recommend anyone truly interested in this issue to hop over there and get their insights in to this complicated issue. Some good conversations over there.


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## RobertG. (May 16, 2014)

Scott,
I have taken a look on the website, which is linked under your user name. Sorry to be blunt but that's what I think: the website was made by an amateur and clearly looks like this. 

The website itself looks very unprofessional and cheap. I guess that's what it really is. A decent wordpress theme for photographers costs less than $100. An alternative would be Squarespace, which is more comfortable to maintain. But it is focused on the US market and without the online shop it's hard to justify the costs. With your background in netwoek engineering it should be quite easy for you to maintain a website.

The second and even worse impression I got came from your pictures. There are a few good ones among them but the majority of them should not be shown on a professional photographer's website. Under exposed, flat lighting, bad framing... all can be found. The kid potraits are great and professional looking but the family ones aren't. Don't show them. 

You have a section for pets but all I can see are a few shots of them same dog. There are some great shots among them but 3 or 4 shots of this dog would be enough. What about cats or any other kind of pet? Show some other dogs, too. It can't be that hard to find any other dog to photograph.

The section "commercial" shows as the 2nd picture a twig with some lichens. Anyone with a macro lens can take a picture like this within minutes. You don't name the scientific name of this lichen, so I guess it was not shot for some scientific purpose. What was the purpose of this shot? Just the nice background blurr? What is the commercial aspect of this picture? I can't see any at all. Better take a high quality shot of a watch or pen.
The next one is an abandoned house. Why? The first architecture shot shows a HDR with too high saturation of the lawn, flat light, artificial looking purplish grey sky and it is clearly visible that the house was not shot with a shift lens. This is by all means an amateur shot. The same can be said about the landscape shot coming next. Too much saturation, flat light, bad framing... it goes on like this for a dozen or so pictures. Then there are some good wedding shots. Why do I need to search for them? Just show the wedding pictures. Leave out the rest.

You advertise "a very affordable price" for your commercial shots but most of the shown ones can't be used for a commercial purpose because of their quality. What's the matter of "a very affordable price" in this case? Why should anybody pay for car shot like the ones you are showing, if they can take exactly the same with a p&s cam?

The section "SJL SERVICES" says: "With our extensive experience in the glamour and fashion photography world if you are looking for the glamorous look, we can create any image you desire." If you claim extensive experience, why are there just 4 different amateur models found in "MAKEOVERS"? Why is no professional model among them? Why is no fashion shot shown?

As you say in the beginning of this thread: "I am *trying* to get my photography business running..." The website and most of your pictures look like they were done by an amateur. Change this. Get a professional website (not just the layout but also professional texts), get a logo, get rid of most of the pictures and just show your best work. Say something about yourself. For the beginning just advertise your strengths like kid portraits and pets. Don't show architecture, landscape etc. shots on an amateur level. If you do so, tell your customers that these shots are just a hobby.

At least here in Germany the law requires you to inform customers about the legal form of your company. The tax number has to be shown, too. You don't even mention your full name or address on your website. Your price list does not say anything about taxes. BTW, are the prints measured in inch or centimeter?

English is not my native language and I don't try to offend you. Sorry if some sentences sound too harsh. I just want to give you a honest feedback. 

BTW, David duChemin's book "Vision Mongers" is a really good read for anyone trying to start a photography business.


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## alpha_rook (May 19, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> The problem is your sales department, which I imagine is you. You aren't successfully showing the added value of your services to the customer to make the price difference compelling.
> 
> Price is only a marginal factor in sales. More often than not, people want the best bang for their buck.
> 
> ...



^^^THIS!! there is definitely a huge disconnect between non-business oriented photogs and their mentality regarding price vs. value. when you properly sell yourself through value rather than price, your clients will not focus on the immobile idea of price. If you make them see the increased value in what you do, then price is not an issue. At the end of the day, people don't make decisions on price, they make decisions on what your services are worth to them- if your services are worth less than what they believe a certain amount of money is to them, then they will not do business with you. That's why you need to raise the value of what you are selling them. Dropping the price doesn't necessarily make what you sell worth more... which is why all of you I presume would agree with me, more often than not, when I say, you truly to get what you pay for in the market of price-cutters.


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## dstppy (May 20, 2014)

Some things are worth it, some people just want over-'shopped photos out of a higher-end camera.

Lots of things separate a pro from an amateur. As Neuro said, bunnies?

I've stopped doing my own formals of my kid because it drives me up the wall when he 'poses' and gives that wooden smile and I can't not start raising my voice. This is why I only do candids (which I'm decent at). 

I'm no child portrait photographer . . . and it shows.

Local studio my mom 'sneaked' my son into and got great shots. LifeTouch does school pictures and I get that stupid wooden grin like the person said to "SAY CHEESE" and his dress shirt isn't touched in.


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## Scott_McPhee (Jun 10, 2014)

I've got another one next to me now doing 4 baby "Watch me grow" shoots with 4 shots printed out per shoot, an album at the end and all of the pics on a CD for £200 (about $335).

Quality of the pics are crap but people are booking her - is our art dead?


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## Orangutan (Jun 10, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I've got another one next to me now doing 4 baby "Watch me grow" shoots with 4 shots printed out per shoot, an album at the end and all of the pics on a CD for £200 (about $335).
> 
> Quality of the pics are crap but people are booking her - is our art dead?



Have you ever looked at 100-year old baby pictures of your ancestors? Did it bother you that the quality was crap? Memory photos need to be just good enough to evoke memories, nothing more. A low-quality photo with a smiling kid is better than a high-quality photo with a wooden smile or worse.


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## jdramirez (Jun 10, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I've got another one next to me now doing 4 baby "Watch me grow" shoots with 4 shots printed out per shoot, an album at the end and all of the pics on a CD for £200 (about $335).
> 
> Quality of the pics are crap but people are booking her - is our art dead?



It sounds like a good value... I know people resisted grabbing market share, but you have to get people in the door before you can sell to them.


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## Scott_McPhee (Jun 10, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> Scott_McPhee said:
> 
> 
> > I've got another one next to me now doing 4 baby "Watch me grow" shoots with 4 shots printed out per shoot, an album at the end and all of the pics on a CD for £200 (about $335).
> ...



I agree mate, but the quality of the pics is awful - SOC and not even a levels adjust on them.
I actually thought they were taken on a (poor) mobile phone.


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## Orangutan (Jun 10, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > Scott_McPhee said:
> ...



That speaks more of the clients than of the photographer. Those clients were not going to hire you anyway. Have you considered a "see the difference for yourself" campaign? That would be side-by-side display of (1) good quality cell phone photo; (2) sooc jpeg using camera default settings; (3) your quality of work. Anyone who can't see the difference wouldn't have been your client anyhow.


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## AcutancePhotography (Jun 10, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> Have you ever looked at 100-year old baby pictures of your ancestors? Did it bother you that the quality was crap? Memory photos need to be just good enough to evoke memories, nothing more. A low-quality photo with a smiling kid is better than a high-quality photo with a wooden smile or worse.



An excellent point. Not every picture has to be "artistic". Most people's family albums are filled with photographs that are good enough. It is the memory and the emotion of the moment that is important.


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## Scott_McPhee (Jun 10, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> Scott_McPhee said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...



Thats a great idea my friend


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## mackguyver (Jun 10, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Scott_McPhee said:
> ...


Have you guys seen this? Crappy Vs Snappy: Photog Uses Side-by-Side Comparisons to Market His Skill


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## tolusina (Jun 10, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> ...
> Have you guys seen this? Crappy Vs Snappy: Photog Uses Side-by-Side Comparisons to Market His Skill


Excellent find. 
<sarcasm> But really now, can't all that be done in post? </sarcasm>


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## Roo (Jun 11, 2014)

and then you get articles like this one....

'And there we have it! The technique is similar to that used by professional photographers, so you’re basically a professional photographer now.'

http://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/how-to-take-an-incredible-iphone-photo-in-the-dark/story-fn6vihic-1226950214904

:


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## mackguyver (Jun 11, 2014)

Roo said:


> and then you get articles like this one....
> 
> 'And there we have it! The technique is similar to that used by professional photographers, so you’re basically a professional photographer now.'
> 
> ...


I'm confused - the wisest CEO of them all, Marissa Mayer of Yahoo, has already said, "[T]here’s really no such thing as professional photographers anymore." Why would someone want to emulate the dead?


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## wickidwombat (Jun 12, 2014)

Roo said:


> and then you get articles like this one....
> 
> 'And there we have it! The technique is similar to that used by professional photographers, so you’re basically a professional photographer now.'
> 
> ...



I've actually thought a cool app would be one that changes the colour of the light to correctly balanced colours for CTO plus or minus green etc so you could actually use your phone light as a continuous source for taking shots in low light


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## dstppy (Jun 12, 2014)

Bring out your dead!


mackguyver said:


> Roo said:
> 
> 
> > and then you get articles like this one....
> ...


Ahm not dead yet!


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## jdramirez (Jun 12, 2014)

dstppy said:


> Bring out your dead!
> 
> 
> mackguyver said:
> ...



I've seen so much bad photography... in my own collection from a few years ago. And that is when people were saying I was doing a great job... so ignorance and politeness lead to this inflated valuation of amatuerism.


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## gsealy (Jun 12, 2014)

My suggestion is to specialize in a niche and get really good at it. Then you can establish a reputation, a brand, and charge higher prices. You have to have something that is not easily duplicated by other people and is highly valued by customers. 

Not to lecture, but this is Marketing 101. It's been this way for all kinds of industries for the last 200 years.


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## mackguyver (Jun 12, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > Bring out your dead!
> ...


I was just being funny about the Marissa Mayer thing ;D As for JD, same experience here. Some good advice I heard a while back is this - if your family likes your work, it means very little, friends, something, yourself, more, strangers, even more, but until someone actually offers you money for your photos or services, you can't call yourself any better than good. Once you put "Photographer" down as your occupation on your 1040 (in the US), then you can call yourself a Pro.


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## Besisika (Jun 12, 2014)

tolusina said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


Actually, more and more often, friends bring their iPhone photos so that I could fix them in post. Never bothered me so far as these are friends photos but what if they begin to do that at a wedding? 
Think about at it, they feel more comfortable when their friends are photographying them. Besides, so many of them comming from different angles. 
Quality-wise, maybe not the top notch, but history-wise it may deliver the best expression a photographer can dream of. I wouldn't mind, if the bride asks me to fix some of those as part of the job.

Consider this, I have a young friend, who is not really a photographer but likes snapshooting. During community events, when I have my basics covered, I give him one of my cameras and he comes back with expressions that I cannot ever get. The girls of his age are simply comfortable with him. 5-10% keeper but I adore fixing them in post. I simply get things that I cannot get on my own. Obviously, I am not a pro photog yet (amateurs get something "better" than me).

By the way, I shot a wedding past week-end and an uncle bob came with two assistants, a softbox and a reflector. My primary shooter told one of the assistants to move away with her softbox then she moves to my side and ruined my video. She didn't want to move until the vows were finished.
At first, I was mad, but few days later I began to admire the dedication. I presume, he was giving a training to the assitants. 

All that made me wondering, who is a professional photographer; the artist, the historian, the business man, or may be the student (jocking...)?


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## Maiaibing (Jun 12, 2014)

In the 1980's I considered making photography my living after having won a series of awards. However, before making the leap I bought a business survey report - a real one. Fact; Photography was one of the most likely of all businesses to fail - stiff competition, low pricing and poor initial customer base to stay "in" being key challenges. 

This was before the digital age. I am quite sure its gotten more difficult since. 

Hope the best for everyone ready to try. But it takes a lot more than good pictures to be a successful photographer. Just like the world's biggest and most profitable restaurant chain does not make the best food - by any standard.


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## dstppy (Jun 12, 2014)

Besisika said:


> Consider this, I have a young friend, who is not really a photographer but likes snapshooting. During community events, when I have my basics covered, I give him one of my cameras and he comes back with expressions that I cannot ever get. The girls of his age are simply comfortable with him. 5-10% keeper but I adore fixing them in post. I simply get things that I cannot get on my own. Obviously, I am not a pro photog yet (amateurs get something "better" than me).



My son (8) over-crops to high-hell most of the time. I gave him my 7D (yeah, I'm that guy) set up his settings, then told him to assist me when doing a dance shoot that his mother was in.

I got at least 2 shots (out of, admittedly, many) that could only have been taken by a child photographing his mother; precious. The wife didn't see the artistic eye in it, but I sure appreciated it.


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## AcutancePhotography (Jun 13, 2014)

Maiaibing said:


> In the 1980's I considered making photography my living after having won a series of awards. However, before making the leap I bought a business survey report - a real one. Fact; Photography was one of the most likely of all businesses to fail - stiff competition, low pricing and poor initial customer base to stay "in" being key challenges.



Congratulations on having the wisdom to do the approprate research. I fear that many don't and believe that their "passion" is enough. Sadly, there is more to it. 

I would imagine that in any reasonably large city, the photography market is over saturated.. especially if the photographer does not have a unique nitche. 

I do not envy anyone trying to become a professional photographer these days.


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## Scott_McPhee (Jun 17, 2014)

I was doing a shoot this past weekend - full portable studio set-up with backdrop, four lights etc and the model's family were taking mobile phone shots over my shoulder as I was shooting.

Even asked me to step aside so they could shoot using my backdrop and poses!

What do we think about this one fellow photographer?
Rude or okay?


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## tolusina (Jun 17, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> ......
> 
> Even asked me to step aside so they could shoot using my backdrop and poses!
> 
> ...


Charge them a rental or usage fee, otherwise they should bring and use their own.

Of course, if you do that, you're likely to offend the model's family and the model thereby losing any possible referral business.

Probably best would be to assist those phonetographers as best you can to get the best images possible while not teaching much actual technique. 
Yes, show off a bit in a sharing manner with a smile on your face, enjoy the experience. Leave them to wonder later how it is that you got results so much better than their own using their gear.


.


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## Orangutan (Jun 17, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I was doing a shoot this past weekend - full portable studio set-up with backdrop, four lights etc and the model's family were taking mobile phone shots over my shoulder as I was shooting.
> 
> Even asked me to step aside so they could shoot using my backdrop and poses!
> 
> ...



Lesson learned: smile, generate goodwill and referrals, and then add new language to your contract including a checkbox with modest fee for use of your setup (and your time) during the shoot. A large fraction of your success as a pro will be your people skills; try not to say "no" to a customer, but instead attach a fee to "yes" that makes you feel OK about it.


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## Scott_McPhee (Jun 17, 2014)

It was mobile phones they were using so I didn't say anything, if a DSLR came out it would have been a different story.

"Can I borrow your skyport trigger while you nip to the toilet?"

Eh....no!


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## Orangutan (Jun 17, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> It was mobile phones they were using so I didn't say anything, if a DSLR came out it would have been a different story.
> 
> "Can I borrow your skyport trigger while you nip to the toilet?"
> 
> Eh....no!



Alternately, "my studio rental fee is X per hour, with a 1 hour minimum."


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## awinphoto (Jun 17, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I was doing a shoot this past weekend - full portable studio set-up with backdrop, four lights etc and the model's family were taking mobile phone shots over my shoulder as I was shooting.
> 
> Even asked me to step aside so they could shoot using my backdrop and poses!
> 
> ...



THis is why i shoot strobes for everything with little or no modeling lights on... They can get the same angle as me but they will under no circumstance be able to replicate my lighting... so raccoon eyes, shadows galore, etc... just wont have the same effect... ever. And as photographers, we all know lighting makes or breaks the image... Even the infamous Sal Cincotta says if uncle bob wants to take a picture, he will take his camera and shoot it for him. He knows it will never be as good as his gear and lighting, but the good will and buzz caused by it will speak louder than words.


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## mackguyver (Jun 17, 2014)

awinphoto said:


> Scott_McPhee said:
> 
> 
> > I was doing a shoot this past weekend - full portable studio set-up with backdrop, four lights etc and the model's family were taking mobile phone shots over my shoulder as I was shooting.
> ...


I was about to mention modeling lights as well - you beat me to it...


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## klickflip (Jun 17, 2014)

RobertG. said:


> Scott,
> I have taken a look on the website, which is linked under your user name. Sorry to be blunt but that's what I think: the website was made by an amateur and clearly looks like this.
> 
> The website itself looks very unprofessional and cheap. I guess that's what it really is. A decent wordpress theme for photographers costs less than $100. An alternative would be Squarespace, which is more comfortable to maintain. But it is focused on the US market and without the online shop it's hard to justify the costs. With your background in netwoek engineering it should be quite easy for you to maintain a website.
> ...



Hi Scott, I thought Robert was being pretty harsh with his comments so would like to give another view from someone thats more local with many friends in the same marketplace.

... thing is Robert's comments are bang on after looking over your website and photography, I now even think that Robert was being kind. Sorry.

http://www.sjlphoto.co.uk

Maybe others can give some advice, but I really don't see anything that says professional level there.
As you are complaining about other faux photographers charging less and taking your work, I would imagine that they really are doing at least as good a job or probably much better than what you are offering and taking the work quite rightly.

You must either have huge kahunas or a misguided sense of talent, or maybe just too many friends & family that give you support because no person in their right mind would start a business with these shots and website. 

This doesn't mean you can't succeed, it just means you really really need very quickly get to grips with understanding
1. Photography in general, style , lighting , processing - look over 1000s of other established photographers and photography business website and really see the difference in quality and style. it's miles ahead from what you are offering.
2. Understand your market, if you wish to continue to produce work of similar quality then you will only be appealing to the lower end or those that cannot discern between someone having a go and someone that is talented & experienced photographer. And will always be competing with newbie amatures and those doing shoots for little or free.
3. Don't put professional photography services all over your website, if you are still learning - I get the feeling this is the case. Everyday I see people on Facebook setting up joe blogs Photography services just because they are starting to take a few decent shots. Photography takes years to get decent at it and don't rush it by thinking you have to advertise Pro, because you want to say you're beginning to get better than others, ( but again this is so subjective if you can't really understand the quality of what you are producing) 
Enjoy shooting more of friends weddings, kids and makeovers but don't charge money until you know before the shoot that you will be supplying great work regardless of the circumstances. 

And that point brings us back to the 'other faux' photographers that you are concerned about. They are not fake they are just more realistic about their skills and experience and hungry for more experience and not bothered about the money. That way they can experiment make mistakes and learn from that without too much pressure and in a year's time they will prob be producing some pretty decent work.

I really think you should be exploring this side and get your photography up to standard first, I imagine you've done this a few time with friends and family to get told you shots are great ' you should be a pro' and then decided to 'go pro' 

I did a quick search to see what other photographers are offering in the area and there are quite a few with not much better style and websites tbh! Which is mental in this day and age. Maybe look further afield for inspiration and aim you sights higher and this will get more attention. Having a shop/ studio is key to attaining a higher profile in this business and getting a good graphic designer on board to give you some great branding will help loads but this has to work with your photography to. 

Think cleaner, simpler more natural light.. actually pay attention to daylight and work with it not against it! Don't ever do 'sexy' glamour if you err towards 80s cheese especially with people past their prime. Glamour and Boudoir photography should be treated very carefully. There are some really great people doing it well and lots trying to copy really badly. 
People lying on the background is always messy, shadows mixed with footprints and creases need some good retouching to keep it natural 
Don't ever do HDR, selective colour / B&W , watch your skin tones just desat a little. 
Being professional is as much about taste as ability, we are the leaders of style do not copy the masses bad photoshop tricks! 
Don't ever try to retouch if you can't, there's some really bad examples there. minimise funky angles.. so 80s / 90s and only a few can get it right. Less wide angle learn to use primes 50mm and 85mm they will simplify your options and get more consistent results. 
Don't over process, just some contrast, desat maybe a little vignette and warmth. Experiment with very subtle split toning. Leave the highlight and shadow sliders alone mostly. 

Are you a photographer that started in the 80s? If so it's time to rethink what you deem to be cool, sexy or funky as I think this is biggest issue overall in your work. 

Have fun, break your bad habits give up the website and work a day job doing test shots with friends for free and most importantly dream / think / visualise every day of the next piece your going to produce. 
Study more fashion based work rather than cheesy glamour and second rate wedding stuff. World class Fashion photography covers so many genres but what sets it aside is the temperament it's made in. Edgy , documentary B&W, natural light, effortless, dreamy, high end studio etc . But what they have all got is the right style and end look for the subject, location etc.
Don't post the latests pictures straight away publicly. Wait a day, re-edit them down only post 2 or 3 by all means send them all to the model. 
Remember a portfolio is the very best of your work not all of it. Less is more. One good shot is worth 100 mediocre ones. 

Good luck


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## ashmadux (Jun 17, 2014)

Super good advice from klickflip

i would like to be professional as well- and getting closer- but i know i have a LOT to learn. Dont feel bad about needing to upgrade your skills- think about how awesome it will be when you get to that point. Graduation day.

Let that be your motivation.

My 2c, from someone who understands how you feel.

Cheers, keep shooting


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## Skulker (Jun 17, 2014)

I haven't looked at the OP ' website. So this is not a comment on his work.

But one of the problems these days is its hard to get constructive comments. Many websites people try to get feed back from just seem to produce only meaningless mind numbingly inappropriate praise. And it seems people do that just to get similar comments back.

I'm guilty of it myself. Friends will ask me what I think of their images and I will always start with a positive comment and only give minimal constructive comment. I do this because l learnt years ago people don't want to know their images are pants.

recently an acquaintance said he couldn't make a living out of taking photos, and he's been wildlife photographer of the year! Another friend, who has articles published in national geographic and books published by the natural history museum, told me his photography is only a support not his main income.

people do make money out of photography but it's more about business than quality photos.


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## TeT (Jun 17, 2014)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> A good photographer wouldn't need to worry about amateurs



big difference between taking good photos and running a profitable small business...

I cant shoot my way out of a paper bag with or without lighting, but I can squeeze your pennies and make your bottom line blossom.


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## Scott_McPhee (Jun 18, 2014)

klickflip said:


> RobertG. said:
> 
> 
> > Scott,
> ...



Wow - some harsh kick in the nuts there!
I do agree the website needs work - this was thrown together quickly and I agree with this 100%
As for the photographs being basically "crap" I really don't agree with that at all - "crap" is in the eye of the beholder after all and one mans "crap" is another mans canvas hanging on his wall.

I have looked at local photographers too and I really don't see how one of my studio shots perfectly exposed (metered) using a Lastolite Hilite box and four Elinchrom guns can be compared to someone who is using, basically, a sheet and a light.

I may work as a network engineer but that doesn't mean I am great at websites - any help would be greatly appreciated.

I also post a lot of my pictures on here and other forums and they are very well received and commentated on by other photographers so some of the harsh comments are very unfair - especially when all I was asking in the original post was how we all cope with amateurs stealing our work.
This has got very personal and I really dont appreciate that - we could all look at each others work and criticize it all day - HDR for example is the Marmite of photography, some love and some hate it, but I have sold many HDR prints and they are some of my most commented on.

Here is a link to my Flickr page - if anyone wants to pass comments on that:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scott_mcphee


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## [email protected] (Jun 18, 2014)

Anyway you are doing or thinking about yourself, I would not "buy" you für people shoots, I would ask you for shoots of technical things, which need to be shown as some one as "great". 
This is your "way" to see the world, and nothing else is more for to get people know "you are the one".
m2c
achim


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## jdramirez (Jun 18, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I was doing a shoot this past weekend - full portable studio set-up with backdrop, four lights etc and the model's family were taking mobile phone shots over my shoulder as I was shooting.
> 
> Even asked me to step aside so they could shoot using my backdrop and poses!
> 
> ...



Were the lights constant... or flash? If they were constant, they got the benefit of good lighting which levels the playing field a bit... but if it was flash and they were shooting with ambient light, I would do the following.

I would ask them to email a copy of their best photo from their phone... and then I would do minimal post production work, some saturation, some added contrast... and then I would do a full post production of my favorite shot and then I would show them theirs and mine at 16x20 or so. I would hope that my work blew their work out of the water. 

and to answer the question... rude.


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## SoullessPolack (Jun 18, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I was doing a shoot this past weekend - full portable studio set-up with backdrop, four lights etc and the model's family were taking mobile phone shots over my shoulder as I was shooting.
> 
> Even asked me to step aside so they could shoot using my backdrop and poses!
> 
> ...



Nothing wrong with using your setup while it's out there. That's not rude. It's in the public, so you can't prohibit it.

Asking you to step aside? Yeah, I would consider that rude, but you'd have to handle it properly. Hopefully you did. As nice as it would be to tell them to ****** off, word spreads quickly, and you don't want a bad reputation as a novice. Would be very hard to recover and make it prosperous career.

I don't question, or even worry, about people taking pictures when I do my set up. Why? Because even if they get an identical photograph to what I have, there's a high likelihood that they don't understand the lighting setup, and wouldn't be able to recreate it even if they had all the gear I do. Not to mention, the post processing skills I possess are not something easily learned, and while I tend to stay on the subtle side of post processing, the difference can be amazing compared to an unprocessed one.

Having perused your site and your flickr, I think as you really begin and continue to learn the basics of lighting, your work will start to stand out. You'll not be worried about other people "mooching" off your set up, or worried about "amateurs". You'll have confidence in your work, which you clearly lack at the moment judging by your posts and the tone in them. But I encourage you to keep practicing as much as you can. I view the learning process as the most exciting time to be in photography. I still love photography to death, but the best times I've ever had were always towards my earlier days when I was learning about lighting, or composition, etc.

If you're willing, shoot me a private message and we can talk more about your path in photography. It's evident that you have a passion for it, so all that you need is some time and patience as well as an open mind, and in a few years you may be a well regarded photographer around these parts.


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## benperrin (Jun 18, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> I was on prostituterumors.com the other week... and there were some prostitutes complaining about the same thing. Something about "just giving it away"... so photography isn't the only industry affected by an influx of amateurs.



Best comment ever!!!


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## Skulker (Jun 18, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> especially when all I was asking in the original post was how we all cope with amateurs stealing our work.



Well, it's not "our work". Either legally or morally. 

If you want to be a professional photographer you need to make it your work by making the sale. If you do that by producing masterpiece work or rubbish that sells is pretty irrelevant.


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## pwp (Jun 18, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> I am trying to get my photography business running but I am encountering a problem I am sure we all have:
> *"Everyone's a photographer!"*
> Seems these days if you buy yourself a cheap DSLR and know how to press the shutter you can call your self a professional photographer.


Apparently the same scenario played out in the early 1980's when reasonably high quality film SLR cameras flooded onto the market. To paraphrase, it seemed like anyone with an SLR who knew how to press the shutter could call themselves a professional photographer...Yeah right.

If you know you're a good shooter, that's a great start. Now go and enroll in a small business management course. Think about little else for several years. Promote, promote & promote. Absolutely 100% believe in yourself. Keep every time agreement you make. If your client need the shots delivered by Thursday, deliver on Wednesday. The talented amateurs around you will continue to be amateurs. It's a different field. 

I like the story told by a very well known Hollywood actor who when asked how hard it is to crack it in Hollywood, he said, "making it in Hollywood is really easy...all you need is about fifty really lucky breaks."

And importantly, be reassuringly expensive. 

-pw


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## ramius (Jun 18, 2014)

> I have looked at local photographers too and I really don't see how one of my studio shots perfectly exposed (metered) using a Lastolite Hilite box and four Elinchrom guns can be compared to someone who is using, basically, a sheet and a light.



Don't let gear define what's 'better' or 'worse'. Just because a portrait is shot in a studio with lighting and metered 'properly' doesn't mean it's better than a portrait shot outdoors with natural light done properly. Sometimes a single translucent reflector can do way more for a photograph than all the lights in the world. I've seen plenty of frame-worthy iPhone photos.

Since you invited people to look over your website and flickr images, I assume you're looking for comments, so here we go. 

I'll list my thoughts out in the order of my 'path' through your website. These are not the only things I've noticed, but some of the more glaring issues (TO ME). 

**** I'm not going to hold back punches. I hope you'll keep your mind open and take these comments from someone who might have a different point of view.  ****




* You complain about amateurs in your area. The first word I think of when I see your website is... you guessed it: amateur. That being said...

* Create a logo or get someone with graphics experience to create one for you. Also, inconsistent watermarking... very distracting.

* We don't care that you have a portable high-key backdrop. Less is more. *Make* the customer want to contact you because of how great your photos are, not because you have a 1DX Mark 7 with a 4-105mm L lens and eleventy-billion studio lights.

* Services Page: Please read-up on what high-key is before telling your customers you can do high-key. The picture of the cute baby in the red dress isn't high-key, unfortunately. Or just do an image search on google on 'high key photography'.

* Most of your kid portraits look the same. Same studio lit lighting, except for a few. To customers, they're just random pictures that look the same... next-next-next-next. Pick one or two favorites and leave the rest out. This is hard to do as each of your photos are like 'kids' and it's hard to decide your favorite. Force yourself to do this. There also might be some white-balance issues here.

* You've got a few lines of words on top of every page. Not really necessary. Maybe clump them into an 'about' page. Let your images do most of the talking.

* Families Page: Outdoor images are all a bit underexposed on my calibrated monitor.

* Families Page: Some lighting imbalance between background and subject on the studio shots.

* Pets Page: Oooof. Beautiful dog, but the shots here are amateur hour. I can go to the local dog park and get similar shots within 10 minutes. Unless you've got better shots, I'd just leave this out for now until you build up a portfolio of more pets.

* Commercials Page: I'm a fan of the first batch of photos. Love the aircraft and still-life landscape photos you've selected and definitely a cut above the portraits. However, things get shaky after the first Vauxhall shot. A lot of snap-shot quality photos here. The wedding shots are in underexposure city and you are the mayor.

*Makeovers Page: Heavy-handed editing/skin softening. The women look very airbrushed. The lightly textured background scream "school photo day" here in the states... and what's up with the vignetting? Very 80s/90s. Look into hiring local models for some shoots after coming up with a few conceptual ideas in your head first. 

* Top Tip: Go to weddingwire.com and search for highly rated photographers near major cities (NYC, LA, etc). Most of the top photographers will have great websites that you can check out and get ideas from. 



Flickr:

* Love a lot of the aircraft photos you've got there. However, you've managed to ruin a lot of them with unnecessary vignetting and HDR. What was the reasoning?

* A lot of the still life/landscape isn't bad at all, either. However, you've managed to kill most of them with HDR. Whether we like it or not, HDR is here to stay and I agree with you on that. However, there's well-done HDR, and there's bad HDR. Unfortunately, with all the *massive* blooming going on in your HDRs, the attempts you've made fall into the 'bad' category. HDR is generally meant to make a picture look better without looking fake.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/scott_mcphee/9309043801/
For instance... what's going on here? Strange vignetting + blooming HDR. If I was a customer looking through your portfolio for any kind of work, one look at this photo would be enough to cause me to move on, unfortunately. 


I really didn't mean to ramble on for so long but I hope you'll be able to get something out of this. I don't know you, you don't know me, it's not personal. Just trying to be critical and give you feedback as a fellow photographer.


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## endiendo (Jun 18, 2014)

@Scott_McPhee
I answear to the original post / first message.

I don't want to heart you, but I think it's the wrong question.
Show your client and us that it's not you the amateur photographer pretending to be a super pro..
just saying you are very expensive is not enough...


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## klickflip (Jun 18, 2014)

Hi Scott. I wasn't being personal, but I guess any negative comment on your work will be personal to you at this stage.
I am trying to be helpful guid you towards work that should help your photography. 

You need to separate out the personal element to view your work objectively and spend time comparing it with other photographers work. And don't pick bad examples thinking you're better than the next local hack, pick some a notch or two above your work. 
I do this all the time and think .. ok what I did was good but these are really great.. what makes them work so well, and how can I achieve that next time. Whether its lighting, the models, grading or just the idea. Be really objective.
We used to get really harsh crits at Uni, with people crying and running out because the lecturers were tearing chunks out of work that we'd put so much time and soul into. But you become fine with this and learn to listen to comments constructively.

As a website and web portfolio is the first impression for so many businesses to clients then it's really important to get that right. Would you eat in a bistro cafe that had a really scabby looking sign, dated interior ( but not in the retro kitsch way!) and the food on show was looking past its best and some not looking like it had been prepared or cooked properly? No. You might at a push grab a bacon roll there but you wouldn't take your family or friends out there and recommend it to other and dine again there.

I looked at your site partly because of other comments made but also, in order to understand why you are concerned about amatures 'stealing' your clients. - Everything needs reference points to be able to make an informed understanding.

There is a lot better work on your Flickr page  . But far too many of over processed planes, I realise Flickr is just a general gallery but still! Your night shots of Glasgow riverside are good but still the general vibe I get is amature work. 

Partly this is your subject matter, over use of wide angles, and some (lets be honest) horrific near HDR processing and too much saturation. 
Being a professional you have to keep up with the styles, show people that you have a impeccable taste and eye for lighting, tone , colour and composition. And know your reference points of many types of photography past and present. A knowledge of HRD is good and when to use it is good but not on anything everything just to give a bland shot more impact. Same as I know when to use B&W and heavy grain treatment on a shot to help convey a mood, or to desaturate nearly completely and add a warm hue. 
Please stop looking at other Flickr users and camera club type photography - all it's doing is fooling yourself into thinking other people are doing it so it's cool , it may have impressed you once but it's time to leave it behind and start to understand what is really nice contemporary photography. 

Here's some examples of decent websites and photography in scotland. 

Decent but not amazing- maybe these should be a starting reference point for you.
http://www.feelingroovyphotography.com
http://www.stevenrussell.co.uk/main.php#imagegalleries/Portfolio/Portraits/1

These are really nice with grading pushed a bit more stylish. This should be what you aim towards. 
http://www.dawnmartinweddings.com/#/page/ad2e/weddings/
http://www.dukestudios.co.uk/wedding-photography-scotland/scottish-wedding-portfolio/city.html

And for total inspiration just google high -end wedding photography or portraiture, contemporary lifestyle photography etc with location keywords such as Scotland, London, LA , Paris , NY etc and immerse yourself into understanding what is really going down... and it's not HDR pictures of planes, Vauxhall insignias from behind or orange glamour ladies looking awkward! Speak to some model agencies and ask about helping them with new tests to work with potential models, don't ask or money tho. Firstly better get a good feel of what type or shots they are looking for before embarking on what you think is stylish as if you do it wrong then you may well burn a bridge there. 

hope this helps.


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## gn100 (Jun 18, 2014)

My observations
- Overall website template is OK
- Better to use sans serif fonts
- The cartoonish font on the banner/header looks amateurish
- The Commercial section seems a random collection of all types of photography
- Overall you need the website to represent the focus of your business ..... needs to be more focused that just photography - either people or commercial (maybe if the commercial section was more focused you could get away with having it)
- A better business name and logo would help
- The Makeover section was weak - the poses weren't great, orange skin and some underexposure
- The pets section needs work - pick your 2 best images of the dog, and go shoot some other pets to provide variety of animals
- There were some good images, but you need to be ruthless as the weaker images are bringing down the stronger ones
- As has been mentioned in other posts - watch the words on the pages - less is more ..... try to keep the words to an "About Us" page

All the best, learn, improve and your passion will show through!


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## markhadden69 (Jun 18, 2014)

I noticed this girl's website on the interweb: http://www.larajade.co.uk/ What a sheister! APPARENTLY she only uses 1 light and a reflector most of the time, OR even "available" light. God knows how she gets booked by all those fashion agencies all over the world. Must be the cheap or non existent fees! She's only been on the go for about 5 years as well.! 

Oh hang on, she must be a good photographer. And here was me thinking I need more equipment and a weird attitude to make me better..! 

(all tongue in cheek, and dont take too seriously please)


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## wickidwombat (Jun 18, 2014)

Scott It seems you dont take the criticism too well but here goes anyway

I checked out your flicker and you have some fantastic shots....
when you dont do HDR...
seriously the halos and oversaturation just ruin them totally
it just screams instagram and doesnt look professional

i'm guessing this is what some people find "crap" myself included 
but hey i went through a photomatix phase myself but now it just makes
me want to throw up. try use enfuse in lightroom instead and go for the subtle
HDR that doesnt look like "HDR"

the portraits. I think your posing and lighting is fine but again
as well as composition and again its the processing is killing 
what could be a great shot.
I'd love to have a go at a couple of those raws

I think your ability to compose and shoot technically seems pretty solid 
but its your processing kicking your arse... 

Thats meant to be constructive so I hope you dont take offense as it was 
not intended in that vein.


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## AcutancePhotography (Jun 18, 2014)

HDR is a lot like a woman wearing makeup -- it should not be immediately obvious it is being used.

If you look at a woman and the first thought is "wow, she is wearing a lot of make up" She is doin it wrong.
If you look at a photograph and the first thought is "wow, that's some HDR" you is doin it wrong.

It should be difficult to tell if an photograph was or was not HDR, if it is done well. All the viewer should notice is "wow that's a pretty photograph/woman."

;D


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## Orangutan (Jun 18, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> HDR is a lot like a woman wearing makeup -- it should not be immediately obvious it is being used.
> 
> If you look at a woman and the first thought is "wow, she is wearing a lot of make up" She is doin it wrong.
> If you look at a photograph and the first thought is "wow, that's some HDR" you is doin it wrong.
> ...



In both cases you must add "unless it's being done for dramatic effect." Some women (and a few men) wear heavy makeup for dramatic effect, like wearing bright, colorful clothes. Likewise, some do HDR for the express purpose of a slightly surreal, dramatic effect. Both are personal choices. I'm not a huge fan of either in most cases, though I've seen a few examples that were quite well done.


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## mackguyver (Jun 18, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
> 
> 
> > HDR is a lot like a woman wearing makeup -- it should not be immediately obvious it is being used.
> ...


HDR is often used to make a crap photo better and it ends up being a psychedelic crap photo. I'm not a huge fan of the "HDR look", but some photographers who take good photos AND use HDR have impressed me. RC Concepcion (Site) is one of those people. I don't love all his stuff, but he really seems to have a knack for taking nice HDR shots and a lot of his work is excellent.


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## jdramirez (Jun 18, 2014)

I salvaged a friend's photo where the subject was to dark... I did the one image, the exposures hdr effect and the results were satisfactory. 

Hdr is my shame... and that I liked it at one time... but... you live... you learn... and hopefully that leads to improvement.



mackguyver said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > AcutancePhotography said:
> ...


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## Mika (Jun 18, 2014)

Hi Scott,

Having looked a bit through your Flickr and homepage, I'll have to concur with others being critical. You'll need to improve the home page, others have already posted a lot of things that could be done.

Now, that being said, I'm definitely not a professional - but do design lenses as my day job so I'll have to keep myself informed how people are actually using the objectives. However, I do note that I could've done better some of the things, while some of the others not which is not something I like if I'm contacting a pro. So, instead of thinking being surrounded by amateurs, you'll need to ask what could you do to push yourself above the amateur level.

From the Flickr it looks like you're at your best at photographing mechanical stuff, airplanes and so on - though cars do need a bit more practise (I find them difficult to photograph). I personally liked the air show photos where planes are in the air against colorful sunsets, but planes on the ground not as much. Take a look on the posted Snappy vs. Crappy page (great find whoever did that!), where a photographer has found his niche in mining industry. His work clearly stands out from the rest.

So I'd advice to develop your strongest area in a public way, but keep the areas where you need practise out of the page. This pretty much mirrors what others have said.

Also, avoid mixing OK pictures with great pictures, like some of the airplanes taxing on overcast day with those colorful and dynamic airshow photos. Overcast weather makes it darn difficult to shoot in natural light, so until you get really (and I mean REALLY) good at it, try to keep them away from the portfolio. Or just start controlling the light at overcast days, but that's something you just can't do with airport photos. I find that unless I can find a good subject, a photo taken in overcast day is a photo that I could probably do better on some other day and look to do that then. As somebody else said, less is better in this case.

On the other hand, shooting airplanes on a clear day can be equally difficult if there isn't a distinct subject. This ejection photo is an example of a more direct sunlight photo but the pilot ejection itself makes it more interesting. 

A bit of criticism towards the family photos, I find taking group shots of standing people tends to lead into a mediocre photo, especially if the camera is facing directly the people. This is an area where I think you need to improve if you'd like to advertise families on your page. Family to me is a much more intricate matter, and it's more about those private (not THAT kind of private) moments together. 

You may see what I mean from Elena Shumilova's work, a Russian mother who mainly photographs her family. She's probably one of the most talented non-professionals (as far as I know, it's nothing short of amazing that she isn't a pro already) I've ever seen. There's a bit of animals there too. She mainly uses natural light and has been educated as a painter. Though, taking these sort of pictures at occasions like birthdays would be extremely difficult. That's when knowing the local weather and how it works in the pictures helps!

For model shots, Katerina Plotnikova is a source of inspiration. Don't worry, when it says "Adult content", it just means model's skin is visible, but she succeeds walking a very thin line on not being offensive of any way. Those beds in the trees are NOT photoshopped, but really there. Don't ask me what sort of persuasion skills she has to have to get the model to agree to go there, or dance with a bear! She occasionally does explain how the shots were taken.

I think some of your architectural shots would need to be improved, but this is an area I don't know much about. Ultrawide perspective does make buildings look funny, and while OK with friends, I think it's not something that professional can afford to do too often. Perhaps tilt/shift could help here?

Landscapes with ultra-wides is a different subject entirely. I don't find doing that very easy, and it often requires me to switch from ultra-wide to just wide to get rid of the perspective distortion. Also I need to know at what times and where the light becomes good, so on weather forecasts, I'm looking for sunny days today and rainy days tomorrow. That often means that the extra humidity may turn the evening sky red, and at that time I want to be somewhere photogenic. That may not be your area, though. Additionally, shooting landscapes tend to force me to go there very early or very late with the additional challenge that this city is very flat, leading to little depth in the images.

Just some commentary from me, tried to be constructive


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## benperrin (Jun 19, 2014)

Yeah, I'm tending to agree with the previous critiques posted. Basically make your website look a bit more professional and remove some of your weaker images that are bringing the stronger images down. 



> I have looked at local photographers too and I really don't see how one of my studio shots perfectly exposed (metered) using a Lastolite Hilite box and four Elinchrom guns can be compared to someone who is using, basically, a sheet and a light.



Don't get too caught up in correct exposure. Correct exposure is an artistic choice defined by the photographers vision not by a tool like a light meter. Joel Grimes has some really good knowledge that he shares about this subject in his videos on youtube. 

I also agree with the others when they say it's more about marketing and people skills than it is about talent. This is one of the reasons I don't think I could ever go professional. So I'm just booking gigs now to pay off my expensive hobby.


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## SoullessPolack (Jun 19, 2014)

Hey Scott, after reading through the responses here, I have a website you may want to visit that may help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States


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## wickidwombat (Jun 19, 2014)

Mika said:


> but do design lenses as my day job



really? Awesome!

going WAYYYY OT here but whats stopping anyone making a 35-85 f1.4 with IS
size be damned to me it should not be to complicated right? since its not going to deep into the wide end


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## sold5 (Jun 19, 2014)

Have to agree with all the others, if I was you I would consider:

1. Less kinds of work shown, don't try to be a jack of all trades, or set up another website for commercial work.
2. Specialise in kids portraits as they look the most professional to me
3. Don't include glamour photos on the website, set up another website for it. Would you send your kids to a photographer that shoots glamour work in your style?
4. The models, clothes and makeup (and the models expressions) on the glamour shots look like an out of date style. Have a look at work like Damien Lovegrove's website for a more modern look - he also shares a lot of his techniques.
5. Make your website name more personal - there is a reason most photographers use their name on their website.
6. Study tutorials on everything - creativelive has very good stuff and it's free if you can free up the time when the workshops are on.
7. It's hard to avoid taking criticism personally but people on this forum are taking their own time and effort to give their opinions so they are doing it to be helpful to your business not to make you feel bad. So take a hit on the ego, take the objective criticisms on board and you should have a much better website and more business very soon.


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## Mika (Jun 20, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> Mika said:
> 
> 
> > but do design lenses as my day job
> ...



Well, I have not tried to do that yet, but I think the biggest thing there would be to control the element positions accurately enough during zooming - F/1.4 primes already require quite accurate element positioning, and I suppose it would only get more complicated with movements in the barrels (that also have their tolerances).

The other factor would then be the cost and market for such objective.


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## benperrin (Jun 20, 2014)

I think we might have scared him off.

Don't take the advice given here as an attack on you or your photography. Take it as an opportunity to learn and to grow your business and skills. You'll be setting yourself apart from your competition and you won't be worrying about them anymore. It's all about perception. You can perceive everything written to be an attack on you, get defensive/hurt and nothing will be done to help grow your business. Or you can take the advice given and implement some changes that will make you stand out.

In the end I suppose that's what people are saying. You need to elevate everything you do so that you aren't competing in the same market as the amateur. As you've found out most people just want the cheapest prices and don't have an eye for the art. Don't market to those people.

Hope this helps and doesn't hinder you.

Cheers,
Ben


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## jdramirez (Jun 20, 2014)

True. With my first daughter I was in the el cheapo group. I brought in my coupon... give me the package, no more, no less. The funny thing is that I now have offer $10,000 in gear for a product I am reluctant to pay more than $30 for. Strange world.



benperrin said:


> I think we might have scared him off.
> 
> Don't take the advice given here as an attack on you or your photography. Take it as an opportunity to learn and to grow your business and skills. You'll be setting yourself apart from your competition and you won't be worrying about them anymore. It's all about perception. You can perceive everything written to be an attack on you, get defensive/hurt and nothing will be done to help grow your business. Or you can take the advice given and implement some changes that will make you stand out.
> 
> ...


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## dolina (Jun 24, 2014)

Creating a brand for your photography is critical to allow you to price yourself to a respective degree. There are too many photographers who are willing to work for free just because they can or for the purpose of practice.


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## eninja (Jul 18, 2014)

I guess this was a wrong move for him to post this thread. Amateur his referring to may read this thread and follow all the advise you guys gave. 

Thanks to this thread I learned few fundamentals.. Thanks for the input guys. I'm 30, just like most, I don't know where I'm headed, you never know what business idea works, might as well give it a try.


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## Vossie (Jul 18, 2014)

SoullessPolack said:


> Hey Scott, after reading through the responses here, I have a website you may want to visit that may help you:
> 
> *unappropriate link*



You probably try to be funny, but I think this reply is quite inappropriate. Although I agree with most of the criticism being given here, we have to give kudos to Scott for his courage to provide a link to his Flickr after having received such strong feedback. He doesn’t walk away from his critics, which –in my view– is a brave thing. He also tries not to take it personally, but to learn from the feedback. With your reply, you are making it personal.

Furthermore, I would not see how he would be helped with addresses in the US, as he lives in the Scotland, which is in the UK (not sure if you are aware of that).

I would speak for you, if you would edit your comment.


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## Menace (Jul 18, 2014)

dolina said:


> Creating a brand for your photography is critical to allow you to price yourself to a respective degree. There are too many photographers who are willing to work for free just because they can or for the purpose of practice.



+1


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## Logan (Jul 24, 2014)

Vossie said:


> SoullessPolack said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Scott, after reading through the responses here, I have a website you may want to visit that may help you:
> ...



whooosh - that joke went way over your head. in north america, when someone gets insulted or teased it can be called a "burn", as in 'you got burned'. when someone has a lot of burns (9 pages worth), it is best to consult a burn center. since its a joke, the location of the burn center is really irrelevant. after 9 pages of insulting the guy in various ways, theres really not much more to be said other than to crack jokes.


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## raptor3x (Jul 24, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> Likewise, some do HDR for the express purpose of a slightly surreal, dramatic effect.



I believe this is known as the HDR hole.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 24, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> HDR is a lot like a woman wearing makeup -- it should not be immediately obvious it is being used.
> 
> If you look at a woman and the first thought is "wow, she is wearing a lot of make up" She is doin it wrong.
> If you look at a photograph and the first thought is "wow, that's some HDR" you is doin it wrong.
> ...



+1


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 24, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
> 
> 
> > HDR is a lot like a woman wearing makeup -- it should not be immediately obvious it is being used.
> ...



+1


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 24, 2014)

Mika said:


> For model shots, Katerina Plotnikova is a source of inspiration. Don't worry, when it says "Adult content", it just means model's skin is visible, but she succeeds walking a very thin line on not being offensive of any way.



Who tags as A.C.? Can anyone flag an image? Because unless it is some people having fun messing with her site I don't get the tags. The few I saw while scrolling through (and it was a pain to have to keep clicking to unlock every few shots for no good reason at all) showed no skin other than bare feet, ankles and face and actually showed even less skin than most not tagged as A.C. Confused.


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