# "Sony A7R III is Pretty Much the New Canon 5D for Pros"



## ahsanford (Oct 25, 2017)

And PB's chief Chris Gampat has jumped the shark for the 97th time:
https://www.thephoblographer.com/2017/10/25/sony-a7r-iii-pretty-much-new-canon-5d/

This is the rosest of rose-colored glasses, even for Chris. 

- A


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 25, 2017)

For some, it will be, but not many. Its missing too many pro features.


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## Maximilian (Oct 26, 2017)

As I stated about the Sony 400/2.8:



Maximilian said:


> ... are they prepared for that league?
> Or is still something lacking behind? (Reliability? Service? AF speed/accuracy? Lens IQ?)
> That would make the big kids stay with their big toys (CaNikon).


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## Bennymiata (Oct 26, 2017)

I've tried both the A9 and A7II, and when Sony makes a camera that I'm happy to hold in my hand for 12+ hours, I might consider one.
Until then, I want to avoid great pain in my right hand and I'll stick with Canon.

I learned decades ago that spec sheets don't make great cameras that are actually useable for heavy duty usage.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 26, 2017)

Bennymiata said:


> I've tried both the A9 and A7II, and when Sony makes a camera that I'm happy to hold in my hand for 12+ hours, I might consider one.
> Until then, I want to avoid great pain in my right hand and I'll stick with Canon.
> 
> I learned decades ago that spec sheets don't make great cameras that are actually useable for heavy duty usage.



There are always new people who have yet to learn that. 

In reality, there is a wide range of attributes that different buyers value, so for some, the size and feature set will match what they need. They will put up with the small annoyances like the user interface and be happy with the camera. That's fine by me, we are each different, and the tool that works best for a photographer is the right choice.

What I don't agree with is someone who proclaims that a product, be it camera, automobile, or potato peeler is the best in the world based on manufacturer spec sheets. The product must mesh with needs and usage of the buyer. Even owners of such items need to be objective. What works best for them may be a looser for someone else. 

The best product reviewers describe the performance and usage along with unspecified attributes as they are, and don't make gushing praises that proclaim the product is the best ... or the worst either. I tend to suspect that there is a unseen motive when I read a review that sounds like PR.


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## OSOK (Oct 26, 2017)

Bennymiata said:


> I've tried both the A9 and A7II, and when Sony makes a camera that I'm happy to hold in my hand for 12+ hours, I might consider one.
> Until then, I want to avoid great pain in my right hand and I'll stick with Canon.
> 
> I learned decades ago that spec sheets don't make great cameras that are actually useable for heavy duty usage.




This is the biggest downside to Sony. 

Truth is, it's also a downside of anything short of the 1DX2 and D5.


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## 9VIII (Oct 28, 2017)

https://www.change.org/p/sony-remove-the-star-eater-on-sony-a7-a7s-r-mk-i-ii-and-a9-cameras

Apparently Sony stopped making professional cameras last year. I might have to change my stance on whether or not Sony’s “competition” is a positive influence on the industry.

Right now they’re promoting gross negligence of photographer’s needs.
A few weeks ago I spent about an hour taking pictures at night. Turns out my 6 year old 1100D was performing a feat of technological sophistication that is simply impossible on any Sony A7/A9 body.

(Edit: Speaking of intentional deficiencies, why can’t Apple give Safari a real spell checker?)


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## Pippan (Oct 29, 2017)

9VIII said:


> (Edit: Speaking of intentional deficiencies, why can’t Apple give Safari a real spell checker?)


You mean one in English rather than American?


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## SecureGSM (Oct 29, 2017)

5D and 6D series are very comfortable for prolonged use. In fact, many wedding photogs do prefer non-gripped 5D body over a gripped one. 
Use a Sony FF MILC with pro 70 200 F2.8 lens attached for a prolonged period of time and be prepared to say hello to *Arthritis*.
The stuff is not funny and so graphical that I would not rescue attaching an image here. Comfortable grip is a must else you are at risk.




OSOK said:


> Bennymiata said:
> 
> 
> > I've tried both the A9 and A7II, and when Sony makes a camera that I'm happy to hold in my hand for 12+ hours, I might consider one.
> ...


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## 9VIII (Oct 29, 2017)

Pippan said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > (Edit: Speaking of intentional deficiencies, why can’t Apple give Safari a real spell checker?)
> ...



I’m jsut looknig for smoething to ponit out whenever my dyslexia pust the worng letters in the wrnog order.
The iOS dictionary is great, but it can’t spell check a pure HTML input field. Firefox and every other browser are quite capable of blocking Javascript and drawing squiggly red lines under incorrect spelling at the same time (I’m not entirely sure if this is a script issue but I presume it is).

It actually brings up an interesting comparison, what’s the difference between my use of Apple devices and someone else using Sony when both are, intentionally, highly flawed.

It’s not that hard of an explanation.
A few years ago I was actively using three different mobile devices, all top of the line, and this is the only one that hasn’t blatantly died in my hands. Galaxy Note 4, perpetual boot loop on a failed OS update. Blackberry Passport, overheats and eventually scrambled the OS permanently (re-loading the OS from a PC does nothing).
Actually for a “Phone” I reverted to using a nine year old Android device as a “Dumb Phone”, it does not connect to the Internet, and it works just fine. I have an iPad for mobile data, it works just fine for that. Until something else dies I probably won’t play with the formula too much.

My iOS device is the equivalent of Canon in photography. Everything else tries to push for relevance using any possible metric, sacrifices quality, and suffers a string of catastrophic failures.
While Canon doesn’t generally push the envelope, they maintain a functional and reliable ecosystem.
People want (and sometimes even legitimately “need”) something different, like 4K Video, fine, Canon doesn’t do that on an enthusiast level body, obviously most people will need to get something else.
By all means experiment with new tools, but call a spade a spade, Sony’s products are broken in so many different ways the hyperbolic media coverage around everything that Sony does is nauseating. It’s the worst type of flagrant consumerism, pushing “new” as often as possible and shunning everything else.


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## OSOK (Oct 30, 2017)

Sony will never, ever make significant penetration into the every day working pro market for one simple fact:

*Their body size, shape and layout is objectively horrible. Unless you have the hands of maybe an 7 year old, this isn't something you want to hold for hours, or can control quickly.*

But do you have to?

With a new generation, comes a whole new philosophy of use...

To me, the Sony is the ultimate P-mode camera for the younger crowd raised with smart phone photography. Use the LCD screen and hold it out, not the viewfinder. Let Eye_AF (which is awesome by the way) do all the work for AF. Just brighten or darken with the exposure comp wheel which is the only control reasonably and easily ergonomically accessible. And for a good reason, it's where it is because it is supposed to be the go-to-dial. The design emphasizes the importance of EC in P mode.

Tons of DR for post processing. New generation loves lots of processing. They like that processed, almost fantasy look. 

It's another reason why Sony isn't investing much in lighting. Their flash system stinks. Offerings are slim for third party. Most Sony shooters I see aren't the types to be hauling a serious strobe and light modifier. They are more inclined to rely on post-processing.

Sony is immensely popular among the under 25 crowd.


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## Mikehit (Oct 30, 2017)

OSOK said:


> Sony is immensely popular among the under 25 crowd.



Do you have any data to support that ? You repeatedly make these claims and provide no evidence?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 30, 2017)

OSOK said:


> Sony is immensely popular among the under 25 crowd.



Is the under 25 crowd a big demographic for spending >$3000 on a camera body and hundreds to thousands more on lenses?


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## Don Haines (Oct 30, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> OSOK said:
> 
> 
> > Sony is immensely popular among the under 25 crowd.
> ...



I thought that was Apple and Google that were immensely popular with the under 25 crowd.....


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## ahsanford (Oct 30, 2017)

OSOK said:


> Sony will never, ever make significant penetration into the every day *working pro market* for one simple fact:
> 
> *Their body size, shape and layout is objectively horrible. Unless you have the hands of maybe an 7 year old, this isn't something you want to hold for hours, or can control quickly.*
> 
> ...



*Those* sound like enthusiasts to me, not working professionals. Throw sensors and form factor aside for a moment:


Enthusiasts flock to Sony for _one_ set of reasons (aka 'look at the neat things I can do!'): attach vintage lenses, use a speedbooster, abuse highlight and shadow sliders in post to manage exposure errors, etc.


While working pros (aka 'my car might break down, but my camera never will') care about things the enthusiast doesn't prioritize very highly: customer service, native lens portfolio, card redundancy, proper metering to get exposure right the first time, 1st and 3rd party accessory ecosystem, quality/reliability, controls/ergonomics, comfort when shooting all day, etc.

And I'd argue Sony is sitting pretty for the first camp and lost at sea for the second. 

- A


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## chrysoberyl (Oct 30, 2017)

Thank you for posting. I was actually thinking about purchasing this camera for astro, if it had an astro tracer mode like the Pentax K-1.



9VIII said:


> https://www.change.org/p/sony-remove-the-star-eater-on-sony-a7-a7s-r-mk-i-ii-and-a9-cameras


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## Big_Ant_TV_Media (Oct 30, 2017)

you nailed it also known as the too LAZY too really edit crowd 



OSOK said:


> Sony will never, ever make significant penetration into the every day working pro market for one simple fact:
> 
> *Their body size, shape and layout is objectively horrible. Unless you have the hands of maybe an 7 year old, this isn't something you want to hold for hours, or can control quickly.*
> 
> ...


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## Tugela (Oct 31, 2017)

Bennymiata said:


> I've tried both the A9 and A7II, and when Sony makes a camera that I'm happy to hold in my hand for 12+ hours, I might consider one.
> Until then, I want to avoid great pain in my right hand and I'll stick with Canon.
> 
> I learned decades ago that spec sheets don't make great cameras that are actually useable for heavy duty usage.



When Canon makes a FF camera that is comfortable for my hands, I might consider them. Until then, I will stick with manufacturers who make more sensible sized cameras, such as Sony.

Everyone varies. If you have large hands (like most alpha males do), then Canikon is good for you. If you have smaller hands (such as average males or most women) then they are clumsy and unwieldy. Sony is far from perfect, but it is a lot better than the giant FF cameras that Canikon make.

Personally, for me, the best camera as far as hand fit is concerned, has been Samsung's NX1. It has the perfect dimensions for my grip, it is an extension of my arm. None of Canon or Nikon's enthusiast cameras come close in comfort level when holding them, they all are so big that they feel like they are going to slip out of my hand.


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## IglooEater (Oct 31, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> OSOK said:
> 
> 
> > Sony is immensely popular among the under 25 crowd.
> ...



I doubt there are any statistics to demonstrate that, however I think his point is that in 60 years, the sub-25 crowd of today will be the _only_ crowd.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 31, 2017)

Tugela said:


> Everyone varies. If you have large hands (like most alpha males do), then Canikon is good for you. If you have smaller hands (such as average males or most women) then they are clumsy and unwieldy. Sony is far from perfect, but it is a lot better than the giant FF cameras that Canikon make.
> 
> Personally, for me, the best camera as far as hand fit is concerned, has been Samsung's NX1. It has the perfect dimensions for my grip, it is an extension of my arm. None of Canon or Nikon's enthusiast cameras come close in comfort level when holding them, they all are so big that they feel like they are going to slip out of my hand.



I find an xxD or xD ungripped body somewhat comfortable, except for my little finger which must go under the camera. A Sony or Canon MILC is decidedly uncomfortable to hold for a significant length of time. A 1-series is ideal, comfortable, and with a hand strap I can hold one with an f/2.8 zoom all day without discomfort. 

[quote author=choosehandsafety.com]Hand sizes for males range from 6.25" to 8.1" with an average hand size of 7.44". Female hand sizes overlap, but are generally somewhat smaller, with an average size of 6.77".[/quote]

My hand size is 7.4", so pretty much spot-on male average. Sounds like you have small hands, a weak grip, or both.


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## ahsanford (Oct 31, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> [quote author=choosehandsafety.com]Hand sizes for males range from 6.25" to 8.1" with an average hand size of 7.44". Female hand sizes overlap, but are generally somewhat smaller, with an average size of 6.77".


My hand size is 7.4", so pretty much spot-on male average. Sounds like you have small hands, a weak grip, or both.
[/quote]

I wrote about this relaxing and recalibrating my hands/habits to learn a new grip recently here:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=33528.msg688331#msg688331

If anyone finds the A7/A9 body a good fit for an f/2.8 zoom or f/1.4 prime for day long shooting, you must have small hands to tune of 2-3 sigma smaller than mean. There's just no room for your fingers and you need to make an 'iron claw' hold with your index fingers, middle finger and thumb... _just like I used to on my T1i with my 24-70 f/2.8L I._ Not fun at all. Pass.

- A


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## Don Haines (Oct 31, 2017)

Wait a minute..... does this mean that the Sony A7R III really is better than the 5D?

How does it compare to the 5D2?


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## 9VIII (Oct 31, 2017)

IglooEater said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > OSOK said:
> ...



That’s an interesting concept, but to use myself as an example, I was over 25 when I bought my first EOS body, though I did have two different Canon P&S bodies before that. One Superzoom I was moderately happy with, and a stupid pocket sized camera that just sucked at everything (except being cheap, which is why I bought it after breaking the control pad on my first camera while camping).
I am (almost) entirely glad the P&S market is dead, for what I was trying to do from the start I should have never used anything but EOS (using a high magnification Macro adapter for the Superzoom, which gave impressive results, but was entirely frustrating to use nonetheless because the camera completely lacked manual focus capabilities).

The question remains, what is the average age of the first time ILC buyer? I had no concept of trying to invest in a system with expensive glass until I was older (even though I really could have started much sooner).

There’s probably a significant percentage of people using Sony bodies just to access old lenses, and by “probably” I mean half the people you see talking about Mirrorless at all are using it with old lenses. The value proposition of getting one body with “infinite” mounting options for hundreds of cheap old lenses is hard to resist (I can’t say it wasn’t a factor in my decision to get a Fuji).

That brings us to the question of how many Mirrorless users have any intention of buying new lenses? (I don’t have any Fuji glass.)
What future does that market actually have?

If people buy Canon glass for Sony bodies, are the just as likely to get a Canon body later?


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## NancyP (Oct 31, 2017)

I can see the appeal of being able to use some old lenses on MILCs. I use old lenses sometimes on my 6D classic. M42 and Nikon F mounts work fine on Canon. 

As for size, there is a certain personal preference involved, as well as hand size. I have a size 6 to 6 1/2 in latex gloves, used to use smaller cameras, I like the feel of the "standard" 5/6/7D body. Rebels are too tiny, 1Ds are too heavy (and expensive - I just don't "need" a 1D series camera).


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## 9VIII (Oct 31, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > [quote author=choosehandsafety.com]Hand sizes for males range from 6.25" to 8.1" with an average hand size of 7.44". Female hand sizes overlap, but are generally somewhat smaller, with an average size of 6.77".
> ...



I wrote about this relaxing and recalibrating my hands/habits to learn a new grip recently here:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=33528.msg688331#msg688331

If anyone finds the A7/A9 body a good fit for an f/2.8 zoom or f/1.4 prime for day long shooting, you must have small hands to tune of 2-3 sigma smaller than mean. There's just no room for your fingers and you need to make an 'iron claw' hold with your index fingers, middle finger and thumb... _just like I used to on my T1i with my 24-70 f/2.8L I._ Not fun at all. Pass.

- A
[/quote]

This is something that I’ve always been surprised to hear so many people have so much trouble with.

Starting with the 1100D on a 400f5.6, holding the entire setup by the body is never an option. Even when the camera is facing straight down I _never_ allow the full weight of the lens to pull on the mount.
It was no different when I had a 5D2 (and the mount on the 5D2 already felt sloppy in comparison).

Regardless of whether or not your camera “looks” like the mount is going to rip off with a big lens attached, I can only imagine how much stress is going into the mount using a 70-200f2.8 and gripping just the body. I know I’ve seen people do it lots in videos, but I guarantee even a 1D will be flexing the mount, even the EF mount is just not big enough, and heaven forbid a Nikon user try anything similar.

You hold the lens, and the body just floats on the back. The 40mm Pancake and included Kit lens are my only lenses too small to be used as the primary grip.
The camera grip is mostly just a surface for more buttons and to help you aim.


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## Don Haines (Oct 31, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Hand sizes for males range from 6.25" to 8.1" with an average hand size of 7.44". Female hand sizes overlap, but are generally somewhat smaller, with an average size of 6.77".
> 
> My hand size is 7.4", so pretty much spot-on male average. Sounds like you have small hands, a weak grip, or both.



My hand size is 8.6". A disadvantage when trying to fumble with controls on tiny cameras, but fortunately, (tonight is Halloween), an advantage dressing up as the Frankenstein monster


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## [email protected] (Nov 1, 2017)

I agree that the form factor and the lens selection prevent me from seriously considering a switch, but I do have to say that they're really knocking down the deal-breakers. A couple years ago it looked insurmountable, but now there are just two or three things that would prevent this from being better than my 5D4...

- Better glass selection and/or adapted glass that performs decently in autofocusing/fps departments
- Form factor that allows for long use with heavy lenses with large hands (I am NOT a fan of the 1dx-type cinder block form factors and weights, but something more normal would be needed)
- Complete service department re-do. Sony is truly awful here. Personal experience both buying from them and - long ago - working for them. I'll also throw into this category a general reliability/toughness issue. My 1DX has thrown from a golf cart onto a metal bar by a 4-year-old (with a 6-pound lens on it), and the resulting dent appears to have affected its function not at all.

Sony just fixed:
- Battery life
- Menu system insanity
- Lack of joystick
- 2 cards
- Menu access during card writing
- FPS

At this pace, I expect they will very soon become a quite reasonable choice.


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## candc (Nov 1, 2017)

I like the size of the a7rii with normal size lenses. Its about the same as the old film cameras like the ae1-p that I started out with. Its the grip that's the problem, there is not enough finger space between it and the lens. I think they should move the mount over to the side more. I've never used an a6000 but I think that's the way they are and I don't see as many complaints about them. 

The lens selection is quite good nowadays. Sony has come out with some good ones lately and there are the baitis and loxia lines. I have been using the 12-24 f/4 and 55 f/1.8 the most lately. Most ef canon and sigma lenses work well and I also use my fd lenses. the fd 50 f/1.2l, the fd 80-200 f/4l, fd 28 f/2.8 are very good. You can't beat the Sony for mf lens use. I recently picked up the laowa 15 f/2 and like it a lot. The new 24-105 and 100-400 look great and are on my radar. 

Sony is missing supertelephoto fe lenses. I am not sure I would want to be using an Fe camera with those anyway so I think I will stick with canon for that.


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## Orangutan (Nov 1, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> Sony just fixed:
> - Battery life
> - Menu system insanity
> - Lack of joystick
> ...



I hope so, competition is good for us customers.


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## nonac (Nov 1, 2017)

Ive never even held a Sony in my hands, but I can tell from looking at it that it would not work for me ergonomically. I shoot lots of sports freelance for local newspapers and that tiny little body looks very uncomfortable. My 1dx is perfect, and I can't shoot my 5d3 or 7d mkII without the grips on them because they feel awkward without them. I hope when Canon finally comes out with a "Pro" mirrorless, the form factor is close to the same.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 1, 2017)

9VIII said:


> Starting with the 1100D on a 400f5.6, holding the entire setup by the body is never an option. Even when the camera is facing straight down I _never_ allow the full weight of the lens to pull on the mount.
> It was no different when I had a 5D2 (and the mount on the 5D2 already felt sloppy in comparison).
> 
> Regardless of whether or not your camera “looks” like the mount is going to rip off with a big lens attached, *I can only imagine how much stress is going into the mount* using a 70-200f2.8 and gripping just the body. I know I’ve seen people do it lots in videos, but I guarantee even a 1D will be flexing the mount, even the EF mount is just not big enough, and heaven forbid a Nikon user try anything similar.
> ...



Although you can only imagine the stress on the mount, no doubt Canon's engineers have tested it and considered it in their design parameters. The lens mount will hold a 70-200/2.8 just fine. Although a lens of that mass does have a tripod collar/foot for balance on a tripod, the body+lens combo is designed to be carried on a neck strap attached to the strap lugs on camera body. Canon provides no other way to carry the combo (although personally, I sometimes attach a BlackRapid strap to the tripod foot). Conversely, with heavier supertele lenses like the 300/400 f/2.8 and 500/600 f/4, there are strap lugs on the lens itself and Canon includes a wide strap to carry the lens. From that, it's clear that the mount is designed to support lenses except the large superteles.


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## candc (Nov 1, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Starting with the 1100D on a 400f5.6, holding the entire setup by the body is never an option. Even when the camera is facing straight down I _never_ allow the full weight of the lens to pull on the mount.
> ...



I've noticed that some lenses seem sloppy on the camera. You would think that's a big deal and cause serious iq problems. I don't recall reading any articles about how mount flexing or a sloppy lens fit affects image output. Maybe its not as big a deal as it seems to be?


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## Takingshots (Nov 1, 2017)

Alot of good reviews at the pre-launch on the Sony A7riii. The pre-orders for the camera at B and H is good. Perhaps adding the battery grip for people with big hands would help. Change the menu system to Canon format and update Metabones to synn fluidly with this camera, perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.


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## Mikehit (Nov 1, 2017)

Takingshots said:


> perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.



in what way?


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 1, 2017)

Takingshots said:


> perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.



Why should Canon change a strategy that's manifestly succeeding?

Oh, right...because _you_ want them to make a camera just for you. Well, good luck with that... :


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## JBSF (Nov 1, 2017)

Takingshots said:


> Alot of good reviews at the pre-launch on the Sony A7riii. The pre-orders for the camera at B and H is good. Perhaps adding the battery grip for people with big hands would help. Change the menu system to Canon format and update Metabones to synn fluidly with this camera, perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.



You mean, let's get Sony to change the A7r3 into a Canon, so that we can convince Canon to change the 5D4 into a Sony.


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## docsmith (Nov 1, 2017)

I find it interesting that the general assumption is "Good for Sony = Bad for Canon," iplying that Sony's growing market share is eroding Canon's. But that isn't the case. Sony really is making inroads, but it seems to be at the expense of other manufacturers and not Canon.

So, if anything, "good for Sony = bad for Nikon, etc"


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## Takingshots (Nov 1, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Takingshots said:
> 
> 
> > perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.
> ...


What is lacking in Canon 6D mk ii (no 4K, dynamic range etc) or Canon 5D mk iv (not full 4K, better dynamic range, etc) ..? Listen to consumers' voice and not limiting its capabilities. Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2017)

Takingshots said:


> Alot of good reviews at the pre-launch on the Sony A7riii. The pre-orders for the camera at B and H is good. Perhaps adding the battery grip for people with big hands would help. Change the menu system to Canon format and update Metabones to synn fluidly with this camera, perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.



A battery grip would help for hand width, but not for finger length. Either the grip is too close to the mount for your fingers, or the grip is not thick as it ought to better pull the knuckle portion of your hand further away from the mount. (It's easier to just point out how close the mount is to the grip.)

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 1, 2017)

Takingshots said:


> Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...



Yes, they announced that they were #2 in FF ILC sales...in *one country* (the US), for *a two month period* (Jan-Feb, 2017). Do you have any data on global market, or on a more meaningful time frame than two months? If not, stating that they're #2 on FF ILC sales is overreaching, much as you can look at a broken analog clock at one of two specific times during the day and conclude it is accurate.


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Takingshots said:
> 
> 
> > Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...
> ...



Neuro, don't take this away from Sony. They've worked so hard to be #1 in the #2 business.

- A


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## Mikehit (Nov 1, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Takingshots said:
> 
> 
> > Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...
> ...



That 2-month period is also when they had a big discount promotion.

I think we can safely assume Canon know about people wanting 4k etc. And the 5DIV sensor has already been proven to be good enough that the differences to Sony sensors are pretty much meaningless (yes, inferior but not meaningfully so). And Canon have decided that these are not the major factors in the market (for some people, yes, for the majority probably not). 

The only way Canon (or any company) will listen is not in people emailing them but people buying competitor products. They don;t care about people who say 'your products are inferior but I will buy them anyway'.

But that has been done to death so many times.


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## SecureGSM (Nov 1, 2017)

Are you saying that Canon 5D IV dynamic range isn’t wide enough for you?

Check the following image then. It is too large for me to attach but here is the link:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8NNYvxCULh3lKydY2

This scene has a very wide DR from bright blue sky to dark areas indoor. I have taken 3 bracketed exposures just in case but ended up processing a single 0EV exposure instead. There is plenty of juice and an extra 1stop of DR hidden in 5D IV dual pixel RAW files.




Takingshots said:


> What is lacking in Canon 6D mk ii (no 4K, dynamic range etc) or Canon 5D mk iv (not full 4K, better dynamic range, etc) ..? Listen to consumers' voice and not limiting its capabilities. Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...


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## Takingshots (Nov 1, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Takingshots said:
> 
> 
> > Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...
> ...


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2017)

Takingshots said:


> Only time will tell in this rapid changing tech world ... On a separate note I remember "Rim" once was a force in the business world with their iconic clickety keys... Now under a different name, they have moved into a software company (hardware is made by other company).



Mirrorless is not to SLR what iOS/Android was to Rim. The notion that Canon may similarly get relegated to the dustbin of history based on nothing more than Sony's _perceived innovation momentum_ is farcical.

If we're talking about computational photography, lightfield stuff, sure -- that's a next-level / someday tech that could fundamentally alter how we take pictures. But Sony's just offering new cameras at a faster rate than Canon with more 'horsepower' on the spec sheets (at presumably lower margins, higher excess/obsolescence charges, etc.).

In that sense, Sony is fighting a conventional war against a much larger and more savvy adversary. I wish them luck.

- A


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## privatebydesign (Nov 1, 2017)

Takingshots said:


> What is lacking in Canon 6D mk ii (no 4K, dynamic range etc) or Canon 5D mk iv (not full 4K, better dynamic range, etc) ..? Listen to consumers' voice and not limiting its capabilities. Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...



The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.

At most the D850 has 0.8 of a stop advantage over the 5D MkIV, at ISO 40. The biggest difference between the two is in the high ISO range where *the 5D MkIV bests the D850 by a full stop*.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D850


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## ahsanford (Nov 2, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.



+1. Sony and Nikon folks stopped talking about DR. _This year_, all they are talking about is FPS / megapixels / throughput in the $3k non-gripped FF market space. (Didn't you get the memo?)

- A

P.S.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 2, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.
> ...



Ah yes, the fps, IF you go to 12 bit RAW's OR spend $1,000 on a grip, battery, and charger. 

I read the small print on the memo


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## SecureGSM (Nov 2, 2017)

There is an additional stop of information hidden in the auxiliary sub-frame of 5D IV that can be utilised. This negates D850 0.8 of a stop low ISO advantage. The sensor in 5D IV is very good.

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/Canon-dual-pixel-technology
https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/canon-dual-pixel-mode-highlights-are-there





privatebydesign said:


> The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.
> 
> At most the D850 has 0.8 of a stop advantage over the 5D MkIV, at ISO 40. The biggest difference between the two is in the high ISO range where *the 5D MkIV bests the D850 by a full stop*.
> 
> http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D850


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## privatebydesign (Nov 2, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> There is an additional stop of information hidden in the auxiliary sub-frame of 5D IV that can be utilised. This negates D850 0.8 of a stop low ISO advantage. The sensor in 5D IV is very good.
> 
> https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/Canon-dual-pixel-technology
> https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/canon-dual-pixel-mode-highlights-are-there
> ...



Yes that dual pixel RAW has so much potential, if only it was more easily liberated.

Canon remind me of their 5D MkII Live View - oh we can turn that into video capture if you think it will help sales - serendipity. Now we have class leading DR across the board in hefty RAW files that nothing seems able to use effectively.

I waited until the 1 series got dual pixel in the 1DX MkII because I believe we will be able to revisit those bloated RAW files in the future and pull that extra stop of goodness out of them.

I know when LR can extract it I will use it and damn the file size. Personally, for what I do, I'd rather have twice the file size at 21MP with one more stop of DR than twice the pixels and the same DR. However when the 5DSR MkII comes out with on sensor ADC and dual pixel RAW I'll get one if for nothing else than archiving thousands of slides.


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## bhf3737 (Nov 2, 2017)

Takingshots said:


> Alot of good reviews at the pre-launch on the Sony A7riii. The pre-orders for the camera at B and H is good. Perhaps adding the battery grip for people with big hands would help. Change the menu system to Canon format and update Metabones to synn fluidly with this camera, perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.



I couldn't find "independent" reviews on the Sony A7riii, yet. The reviews so far were "staged" ones by those who were invited by Sony to their launch party and they used the camera in a controlled environment. They don't count for good field test reviews by professionals. 
Sony's strategy to enter the market is to pay a a few bloggers (not photographers) and get paid by the mass enthusiasts! It may work for them in short term because they seek their cash cows among younger generation and tech savvy crowd. It is much much different than Canon's Explores of Light program which strictly relies on pros to advertise for its products. 
Sony's ILC offering so far has been all about "try this camera, you will like it." Some tech and photo fans may fall for it and like to be part of the experiment. Many are unknowingly paying Sony, Metabones, etc., to beta-test their products. Imagine lab rats paying pharma companies to get new drugs tested on them every few months!!


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## SecureGSM (Nov 2, 2017)

oh, you can utilise that extra stop in 5D IV Dual Pixel RAW files now. the feature is available for longer than a year. Current version of RawDigger will export sub-frames as a separate TIFF files to work with. exposure blending is easy.

p.s. I don't think you can pull this trick with 1DX II files as Dual Pixel RAW mode is available for 5D IV exclusively for now.



privatebydesign said:


> Yes that dual pixel RAW has so much potential, if only it was more easily liberated.
> 
> Canon remind me of their 5D MkII Live View - oh we can turn that into video capture if you think it will help sales - serendipity. Now we have class leading DR across the board in hefty RAW files that nothing seems able to use effectively.
> 
> ...


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## Jopa (Nov 2, 2017)

bhf3737 said:


> I couldn't find "independent" reviews on the Sony A7riii, yet. The reviews so far were "staged" ones by those who were invited by Sony to their launch party and they used the camera in a *controlled environment*.



_Temperature_ controlled environment is crucial for Sony


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## Jopa (Nov 2, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> I don't think you can pull this trick with 1DX II files as Dual Pixel RAW mode is available for 5D IV exclusively for now.



Knowing how Canon releases firmware updates, I doubt it will ever happen.


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## ahsanford (Nov 2, 2017)

Jopa said:


> SecureGSM said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think you can pull this trick with 1DX II files as Dual Pixel RAW mode is available for 5D IV exclusively for now.
> ...



Wow, I haven't seen Sexual Harassment Panda in ages. Nice work.

- A


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## scyrene (Nov 3, 2017)

Tugela said:


> Bennymiata said:
> 
> 
> > I've tried both the A9 and A7II, and when Sony makes a camera that I'm happy to hold in my hand for 12+ hours, I might consider one.
> ...



Slightly adversarial tone there. I have smaller-than-average hands and have never had a problem with Canon FF cameras (I've never used a 1-series though). I think it's possible to get used to things, I don't really believe that a given size is intrinsically best for a given person.


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## deleteme (Nov 3, 2017)

Sony has done a lot of catching up in a very short period of time.

This latest iteration actually makes a lot of sense to me for several reasons.
It now has the native lenses I need as a working pro. The addition of the 24-105 f4 is significant as this is a workhorse for so many pros.
The 70-200 lenses are there and the 12-24 and 16-35 zooms also have good reputations.

We now have dual slots.
New battery.
A better EVF
Improved ergonomics ( though I will rent one to use it for extended periods to see)

As I use only manual strobes the lack of TTL and HSS third party or Sony gear is irrelevant.

An articulating screen is a huge improvement over the 5D series and a silent shutter only adds to the advantages.

The real issue is service. Sony claims to be establishing a pro service system. If it matches or exceeds Canon or Nikon then they will be a force to be reckoned with.

Already their competition has to recalibrate their inaugural FF MILCs as Sony keeps moving the goal posts.


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## Jopa (Nov 3, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > SecureGSM said:
> ...



I still watch South Park but I think the good seasons/episodes are ended with Chef's death.


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## bclaff (Nov 3, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> Takingshots said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


Slow to reply, but huh?
First, surely you meant ISO 50 not ISO 40 but that chart looks like the attached.

The only place that's even close to 1 stop difference is ISO 102400 where the 5D Mark IV invokes noise reduction in the raw.


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## OSOK (Nov 6, 2017)

privatebydesign said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...




What a scam!

The D850 is approximately a $4,300 camera at that point. The A9 is $4,850 gripped.

Authorized dealer "street price" on the 1DX2 is $5,300.

While that is roughly $1,000 more than the D850 and $550 more than the A9 - the value is no comparison whatsoever in favor of the 1DX2. 

The Youtubers can go on and on about specs and Sony/Nikon will win the PR war -- when it comes time for opening up the wallet, I do not believe the online popularity will translate to real sales.

I figure that anyone willing to break that $4,000 threshold on a body, is able to go another $1,500 to get an all out, 100% pro flagship beast and give up nothing.

I also figure that anyone breaking that $4,000 threshold will also do serious research, and also have a very serious understanding of their actual needs and not be swayed by Youtube fluff and reviews.

That said ...

The D850 is getting a lot of credit for being a 9fps camera, but in reality it is a 7fps which puts it on par with the 5D4, albeit with a lot more resolution...but they don't win on speed. Adding $1000 puts this rig into a different class of camera which puts it in that no-man's land where you might as well pay more for a flagship at that point. 

All the D850's 9fps does is saves Nikon users from having to buy a D500 to get sports speed. It saves them $800, and they get it all in one body, plus a grip and of course even more battery life. All at full rez. That's pretty cool.

Sony is a joke with all their 12-bit shenanigans. This is basically misleading in this day and age of 14bit raw. For all the big talk about big megapixels and huge dynamic range, and speed....it is all thrown away by 12 bit. FINE PRINT as they say....


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## OSOK (Nov 6, 2017)

I also laugh at how, now finally, after all these years Sony is addressing the issue of moire. 

It's finally a real problem only now that they have a solution. In the past, they just ignored it OR when pressed on the issue, say that super high resolution eliminates it (for the most part), which we all know is completely false. 

Unfortunately, this solution will NOT work on moving subjects. It won't even work on most still subjects either as this is limited strictly to still subjects and tripod use.

Nikon is still silent about moire.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 6, 2017)

OSOK said:


> Authorized dealer "street price" on the 1DX2 is $5,300.



I paid a LOT less than that for mine.


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## Mikehit (Nov 6, 2017)

OSOK said:


> It's finally a real problem only now that they have a solution. In the past, they just ignored it OR when pressed on the issue, say that super high resolution eliminates it (for the most part), which we all know is completely false.




Can you explain how it is 'completely false'? Any examples? Compared low resolution sensors vs modern sensors? 
It is like many things - when one problem is solved, the critics move the goalposts so they have something to complain about.


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