# 7D Mark iii or 90D?



## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 30, 2017)

Which model do you believe will be released before, 7D Mark iii, or 90d?


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## OSOK (Oct 30, 2017)

7D Mark III

Or at least that is what I hope.

I don't expect much in terms of a 7D3. Maybe 11fps...slight sensor improvements. Not much to improve on it. On the other hand, Canon is notoriously conservative on upping specs. Maybe they can use it to showcase some 4K that's actually usable...that's wishful thinking.

This will allow Canon to dedicate the entire first half of 2018 to this camera, and so they can use the back end for consumer stuff to make it to 2019. This gives them time to figure out what to do with the 5DSR / 5D4 in respect to the D850 and A7R3 releases which remains to be seen how successful they will be - but the industry is going crazy over these have your cake and eat it High rez, high speed, high quality cameras. 

Canon shot their load in late 2016, so they aren't updating anytime soon.

7D3 will also answer the D500, which has all the spotlight on it for APS-C sports and wildlife.

80D isn't that old, but that line updates more regularly.

7D series has long product cycle due to being specialist camera. Even on the Nikon side....


Tough call.


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## James Larsen (Oct 30, 2017)

Most likely the 7DIII, and I'm hoping that is the case. Would love to upgrade from my 80D (more rugged body, 4k video hopefully, and hopefully a touchscreen).


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## KevinP (Nov 11, 2017)

The 7DIII seems more likely. It's 18 months older than the 80D or D500. Hard to be certain though. Mostly, 80D doesn't seem due for replacement on their regular schedule until later 2018 or start of 2019. Rushing an engineering and manufacturing project is hard. It seems like there must be a newer, better sensor in works now that the 80D sensor has been morphed into the regular production unit. A new sensor project doesn't seem easy to shorten. 

The 7DIII could benefit from some new parts like a pair of Digic 7, but I don't know if adding dual pixel with the same sensor everything else has would really be a compelling point, unless the AF picks up some new tricks. 

Canon DSLR Timeline: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Canon_EOS_digital_cameras


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## unfocused (Nov 11, 2017)

I believe Canon will return to the 7D/60D sequence, releasing a 7DIII with a new sensor in 2018, then trickling that sensor down to the 90D the following year.



OSOK said:


> Canon is notoriously conservative on upping specs.



That’s not been the case with the 7D. The original 7D was spec’d above the 5D in every way but sensor size. Autofocus, weather sealing, FPS, etc. was superior to the 5D II.

Same with the 7D II, which was above the 5D III in many respects and pretty much a mini-1Dx.

I expect that the 7D III will once again surpass every other crop sensor camera and have some new features that preview the next generation of the 1D x.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 11, 2017)

unfocused said:


> I believe Canon will return to the 7D/60D sequence, releasing a 7DIII with a new sensor in 2018, then trickling that sensor down to the 90D the following year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats a good example of why specifications don't tell the whole story. I had two of the original 7D's and two 5D MK II's. As far as image quality, the 5D MK II was miles ahead. For me, being able to have a high FPS and taking a lot of poor images really quickly was not pleasing. The 7D struggled at ISO 800. A few years later, improvements in processing software let me redo the old images, and ISO 1600 became ok.

I avoided the MK II, lots of experienced photographers had issues with theirs, and I still see new owners complaining.

Canon needs a new 7D MK III that overcomes the spotty issues with the MK II. I expect it first.


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## 9VIII (Nov 11, 2017)

Probably the 7DIII.

There are three primary points Canon really need to address.
1. 4K Video.
2. Sensor Noise (the D500 is just way too good in this area to ignore).
3. For goodness sake give it dual UHS-II SD card slots.

Maybe they could replace the AF system, much as the 7D2 has a really good system, I’m sure some high end users would still appreciate having a crop body that keeps the full AF spread at f8 (currently only on the 1DX2).
Maximum burst doens’t really need to change, they could probably keep the same shutter. If they go to the 24MP DPAF sensor then it would already be pushing a lot more bandwidth.


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## drmikeinpdx (Nov 11, 2017)

Mt. Spokane said: _Thats a good example of why specifications don't tell the whole story. I had two of the original 7D's and two 5D MK II's. As far as image quality, the 5D MK II was miles ahead. For me, being able to have a high FPS and taking a lot of poor images really quickly was not pleasing. The 7D struggled at ISO 800. A few years later, improvements in processing software let me redo the old images, and ISO 1600 became ok.

I avoided the MK II, lots of experienced photographers had issues with theirs, and I still see new owners complaining._

I have to agree with Mt. Spokane. I was very underwhelmed by the image quality of my old 7D. My conclusion was: Why buy a body the size of a full frame camera, if it doesn't give full frame image quality? If I buy another APS-C Canon, it will not be in the 7D series unless the next one has rave reviews. 

I'd buy an 80D before I'd buy a 7D Mark II if I wanted a sports/wildlife camera. 

For a travel camera, I'd go with the latest Rebel-class body. BTW, I'm enjoying my 77D. The image quality is close enough to my 5D3 that I can use it for almost anything and not feel regret later when processing the images.


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## ahsanford (Nov 11, 2017)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Which model do you believe will be released before, 7D Mark iii, or 90d?



It will be close. If you believe Canon never goes faster than the last revision (which is generally true):

Date 80D was released: 3/24/16
##D product line rough refresh timing: Medium length, about 3 years
Best guess of a 90D date: 6/24/19

Date 7D2 was released: 11/1/2014
7D# product line rough refresh timing: Long, about 5 years
Best guess of a 7D3 date: 11/1/2019

But of course that 'about 5 years above' was based on the 7D1 being up against a dormant market sector for Nikon for years. Recall Canon gave the 7D1 a nontrivial firmware 'boost' and extended its lifespan rather than bring out a quick 7D2 against... crickets from Nikon (can't say I blame them). 

But now we have the D500 and -- something I think is a nontrivial development -- a 200-500 f/5.6 IS lens for $1400. That 1-2 punch could conceivably gobble up some Canon wildlifing/birding types in sufficient numbers to cause Canon to speed up the 7D3.

But no one has that data but Canon and Nikon. So if we get a 2018 7D3, I would presume the D500 is stealing share from Canon. 

- A


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## unfocused (Nov 11, 2017)

I wish people would have actually read my post. The statement I was responding to was that Canon is “notoriously conservative” on specs. I was simply pointing out that has never been the case with the 7D line, which has been spec’d above the 5D but below the 1D in each of its two generations. The relative difference in image quality between full frame and crop sensor is irrelevant to that point.


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## Don Haines (Nov 11, 2017)

unfocused said:


> I wish people would have actually read my post. The statement I was responding to was that Canon is “notoriously conservative” on specs. I was simply pointing out that has never been the case with the 7D line, which has been spec’d above the 5D but below the 1D in each of its two generations. The relative difference in image quality between full frame and crop sensor is irrelevant to that point.


I certainly agree with you.

The 7D2, when it came out, had weathersealing comparable to the 1DX. The only camera that had a better AF system was the 1DX. The only camera that beat it for burst speed was the 1DX. This camera really was a mini- 1DX... certainly not conservative on specs.... the camera was designed as a tough workhorse and it delivered!

Yes, it does not have 4K video, but that’s not what a camera like that is about.... it is about heading out in all conditions and delivering the goods. Today I had a choice between using a 5D2, a 6D2, borrowing a 5D3, or my trusty 7D2. It was -12 outside and I wanted to capture muzzle flashes of artillery pieces so the toughness and burst rate of the 7D2 won out. In the end, I was successful...... my companion with a D500, no luck....

It is getting a bit long in the tooth, but it can still kick some serious Nikon butt....


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## 9VIII (Nov 11, 2017)

unfocused said:


> I wish people would have actually read my post. The statement I was responding to was that Canon is “notoriously conservative” on specs. I was simply pointing out that has never been the case with the 7D line, which has been spec’d above the 5D but below the 1D in each of its two generations. The relative difference in image quality between full frame and crop sensor is irrelevant to that point.



I think the point here is that the 7D3 is the first “reactionary” model, this is not a natural progression from the 7D2 and there is reason to speculate that this will be a minor upgrade.
Though the point certainly is valid that the 7D series has up to this point been designed as a disruptive product in the marketplace. I suppose we should all just be happy that Nikon finally got the hint and started competing, and now the D500 is _even more_ disruptive.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 11, 2017)

For me the question is:

Canon will launch 7D Mark iii hastily, to not lose sales in 2018?
Or will make a killer camera just after the 90D is in the stores?


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## Don Haines (Nov 11, 2017)

Realistically, what can you do to improve the 7D2?

You could add in the touchscreen and WiFi of the 6D2..... I think that’s a given......

You can’t really add to many more AF points, but you could make them all F8 and allow metering to the selected AF point.... I think this will happen.....

You could add UHS-2 storage and effectively get an infinite buffer. I expected this on the 7D2, it is long overdue on the 7D3......

Burst speed? Possibly bump it up, but I really doubt you would get to more than 12......

4K video? Probably.......

Intervalometer? Time lapse mode? Probably.....

Bump the pixel count? Probably..... I can’t see more than 24.....

Other than that, is there really anywhere to go?


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 11, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> Realistically, what can you do to improve the 7D2?
> 
> You could add in the touchscreen and WiFi of the 6D2..... I think that’s a given......
> You can’t really add to many more AF points, but you could make them all F8 and allow metering to the selected AF point.... I think this will happen.....
> ...


I like your list, but there's something missing:

Low noise in ISO6400.


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## Don Haines (Nov 11, 2017)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Realistically, what can you do to improve the 7D2?
> ...



I expect that any improvements from newer technology will be eaten by an increase in megapixels...


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 11, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


Although Canonrumors members always state that "Canon is conservative," it was Nikon decided to lower the resolution of the D7500 over the previous model.

If Canon lowered the resolution to please those who need high ISO (and annoy others), how many people would shout that "Canon is *******."


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## unfocused (Nov 12, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> Realistically, what can you do to improve the 7D2?



I think your list is pretty accurate. They could move to a Cfast slot, they could pull a Nikon and add a grip that uses the 1Dx battery for higher frame rate and to drive big whites. But I do think on chip ADC will be the biggest upgrade.


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## 9VIII (Nov 12, 2017)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > ajfotofilmagem said:
> ...



I think it’s still too early to think of high ISO performance as a pure matter of pixel size.
I know DP Review’s comparison tool is not perfect, but, within each brand and within each generation of sensor, it’s the “premium” cameras that get the best high ISO performance. Whether it’s baked in noise reduction or simple chip binning, the 7D2 has less noise than the 70D, the Fuji X-T2 has less noise than X-T20, and the D500 is working some kind of miracle compared to any other APS-C body on the market.

Regardless of what resolution the 7D3 is, I’m confident it’ll outperform every other Canon APS-C body to date.


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## greger (Nov 12, 2017)

If the 90D comes in February 2018 then we will have to wait till September or October 2018 for the 7 D Mark 3. I don’t think Canon would release them at the same time.


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## ahsanford (Nov 12, 2017)

greger said:


> If the 90D comes in February 2018 then we will have to wait till September or October 2018 for the 7 D Mark 3. I don’t think Canon would release them at the same time.



100% agree. 

- A


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## nostrovia (Nov 19, 2017)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Realistically, what can you do to improve the 7D2?
> ...



I just hope the touchscreen from the 6d2 includes the tilty/flippy part.


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## zim (Nov 19, 2017)

greger said:


> If the 90D comes in February 2018 then we will have to wait till September or October 2018 for the 7 D Mark 3. I don’t think Canon would release them at the same time.



I can pretty much guarantee that's what will happen as I have a big holiday coming up in august and was thinking to upgrade to 7d3 for that.


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## Hector1970 (Nov 19, 2017)

A 7D3 will have to sort out the poor high ISO performance of the 7D2 which really lets it down.
I'm a floppy screen fan but I d have requirements for one for a camera I use for sports.
No doubt the the 7D3 will have one.
I'm not a fan of touch screen.
I think they should add a switch to turn on /off back button focussing or set it as a default setting.


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## OSOK (Nov 22, 2017)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Although Canonrumors members always state that "Canon is conservative," it was Nikon decided to lower the resolution of the D7500 over the previous model.
> 
> If Canon lowered the resolution to please those who need high ISO (and annoy others), how many people would shout that "Canon is *******."




Nikon not only lowered the resolution, but they also removed a card slot. This was a big step backward on that particular line. Although it does make sense in the following ways -

They need to ensure there's good separation between it and the D500. A strong D7500 makes the D500 questionable, build quality aside.

It's the same story on the Canon side. If the 80D or 90D is too good, why bother with a 7D3? Other than the build quality for pro use, the real features that truly matters is the high FPS and the dual card slots. Canon though is more generous offering the fully articulating screen and DPAF. Making their enthusiast crop cameras really super well rounded do-all bodies for people not making a living off of it (yet many actually do).

The D7200 is a hell of a camera. Incredible IQ for a crop, amazing DR. It's fast. Dual SD. Great AF system. There's almost nothing at all to dislike about it. It's one of the best APS-C cameras ever made, especially at that price.

Figure also that Nikon is getting their sensors from this TowerJizz company. 24MP was the Sony sensor. They're ordering up a 20MP from TJ to use in both bodies to save money and simplify manufacturing. 

Will it work out for them? Who knows....In one way, they are copying the Canon business model of product segmentation. On the other hand, they are offering up a worse value because their customers are used to different approach (more feature rich bodies) and their cameras are monsters for stills and awful for video.

The 80D might not have the greatest AF, dual slots or best crop sensor - but it gives back in terms of screen, touch, DPAF. Which matters to that $900 range buyer. The D7500 gave up some very important stills shooter qualities...making it less appealing to stills shooters, and gave nothing in return on the video side.

I think this approach is a loser for Nikon. They can't get away with it like Canon does.


The 7D3 is going to probably feature the following -

11 or 12 fps
On chip ADC with the higher DR.
Anywhere from 22 to 28 MP.
Illuminated buttons.
4K of some kind, whether it is useful codec or not remains to be seen.
Same AF points, but improved AF processing, metering....
Bigger buffer.
Wireless Connectivity

I do not expect:

Different storage card arrangement. Maybe, UHS-II on the SD...big maybe.
No tilt screen.
No USB-C
No removal of the OLPF
No hybrid view finder
No IBIS
No AF Spot Linked Metering


I'm thinking it will break down this way -


If Canon gives 24-26mp, they might offer 11fps.

If they up to 22mp, they'll give 12 fps. 

If they make it 28mp, it will stay 10fps.


This has nothing to do with actual processing power or the ability to move the data. This is for product segmentation purposes.

12fps is quite fast and even at 20mp, starts to become more and more a substitute for a 1D for some. For this reason, I think they can appease people with a modest increase of 1fps (heck, they might even keep it at 10fps) and offer up instead a big resolution increase.

Figure, the wildlife folks this was targeted toward the most are probably pretty happy with 10FPS. If I had to guess as to what they prefer to have more - I would bet they would want more detail and resolution over FPS at this point. At 10FPS, they are likely capturing plenty of great shots and aren't upset wishing they had more frame rate. They'd like those to be more detailed shots though. No doubt about that. Canon isn't going to offer up more detail via removal of the AA filter, so it's going to be more MP to make it up.

I'm guessing 26 to 28 MP, 10 fps, maybe 11 if they are generous. And a much bigger buffer so the bird in flight shooters can machine gun almost non-stop.


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## Mikehit (Nov 22, 2017)

OSOK said:


> This has nothing to do with actual processing power or the ability to move the data. This is for product segmentation purposes.
> 
> 12fps is quite fast and even at 20mp, starts to become more and more a substitute for a 1D for some. For this reason, I think they can appease people with a modest increase of 1fps (heck, they might even keep it at 10fps) and offer up instead a big resolution increase.
> 
> ...



My guess is different to yours - the 10fps is is not about /segmentation' but is about capacity of the processor. You can drive AF, or you can move data, not both - if you think this is different can you explain why. 

As a wildlife shooter I can tell you 10 fps is perfectly fine and 12 will not get you any more keepers than 10 so in that respect I agree with you in that I would prefer they spent the money on pixels (number and quality if possible). As for the buffer, I find absolutely no problem with it when using the fastest cards - I can shoot 50+ shots before it starts to slow down. I have not yet met a wildlife photographer who shoots full burst for 5 seconds at a stretch: for birds in flight you rarely get that much time with the bird in a decent position (maybe something like a big cat on the chase, but even then not sure how long they are a decent distance away).


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## tomscott (Nov 23, 2017)

I love my 7DMKII I think its so underrated and people instantly dismiss it.

It has saved my ass in so many situations and has been in some of the worst conditions on the earth and always performs. Love the body, frame rate etc etc.

Couple of issues I have had. The focus inconsistency is a pain, its a well known issue and it is really sporadic and doesn't really make a lot of sense to work back why. Ive shot static wildlife shooting a 3 frame burst and the first frame is out second frame in third frame very slightly out. Changing the release/focus settings doesn't really make a lot of difference. Other times is hits all the time and the images are tack others times not. I always get a usable shot but it seems to lock and then be ever so slightly out. I have combated this by shooting 2 busts usually. TBH its at its worst if a subject is backlit but at the same time had lots of front light and been out too.

I havent had this issue with any other camera ive ever owned and I have had most modern Canon DSLRS so would be nice for this to be ironed out. The 5DMKIII rarely missed, the 70D isnt brilliant at acquisition but when it locks its tack and 6DMKII with the same AF (supposedly) very rarely misses I find the 6DMKII to be the most consistent out of these cameras in the 30-40k ive shot with it I would say less than 2% have been out. Really enjoy that camera theres been no disappointment at all, it seems the budget camera that can do it all.

My other issue which isnt really an issue, I really like the IQ generally, I have shot plenty of 6400 in jungle/rainforrest conditions and have not found it to be a problem. Saying that there are weaknesses of this generation, muddy shadows when pulling back detail which seem to have been greatly improved on the newer generation sensor. A little less noise would be nice too. Last point put a touch screen on it. There is literally 0 point in having DPAF without a touch screen IMO seriously hampers the camera.

So basically stick the new sensor, sort the AF inconsistencies and add a touch screen and that would be enough for me to buy a new one. Like the 5DMKIV its a very robust polished machine with little improvement needed.

Other than that the body is super stellar.


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## Sabaki (Nov 23, 2017)

The one thing I'd love is for the AF consistency to be sorted out

Once the announcements get made, we will start to hear comments like 'Baby 1DX' and '7DX' or similar but the fact of the matter is that the actual AF performance vs the marketed/implied/assumed performance was just not amazing.

I'm no engineer and can't throw my 2c into the hat regarding battery size, algorithms or such like things but Canon needs to make a statement and deliver a D500 killer


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## Orangutan (Nov 23, 2017)

tomscott said:


> the 70D isnt brilliant at acquisition but when it locks its tack and 6DMKII with the same AF (supposedly) very rarely misses I find the 6DMKII to be the most consistent out of these cameras in the 30-40k ive shot with it I would say less than 2% have been out. Really enjoy that camera theres been no disappointment at all, it seems the budget camera that can do it all.



I've been thinking of taking advantage of the current 6D2 deal to replace my 70D. The 70D was a great upgrade from my 60D, especially for birds, and I'm generally happy with it. The major reason I'm considering the upgrade is for better low-light and shadow detail, especially for birds. It sounds like you've shot both quite a bit; can you tell me how the 6D2 compares for low-light/high ISO (1600-3200) for birds? One concern is that for reach-limited situations I don't have enough zoom to get the same number of pixels on the subject. Of course, it's still the same sensor area, but it's not clear whether there's enough per-unit-area IQ improvement to warrant the purchase. Before this sale I was thinking I'd keep saving, and maybe buy a refurb 5D4 in a year or so.

Thanks.


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## Mikehit (Nov 23, 2017)

Orangutan said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > the 70D isnt brilliant at acquisition but when it locks its tack and 6DMKII with the same AF (supposedly) very rarely misses I find the 6DMKII to be the most consistent out of these cameras in the 30-40k ive shot with it I would say less than 2% have been out. Really enjoy that camera theres been no disappointment at all, it seems the budget camera that can do it all.
> ...



I can't compare your camera but I can compare the 6D, 7D2 and 5DIV. In general I would say that at ISO 2500 and above the 'pixel reach' of the 7D2 starts to be negated by the better pixel quality of the FF models. I would expect the 70D to be slightly more so. Having said that the difference is there but not 'night and day' on casual viewing of an image but it becomes more pronounced if you crop or recover shadows. 
To be honest, even in half-decent light, and image where you would use a FF sensor and say 'nah! it is starting to fall apart', the APS-C image is not gong to be a miraculous award-winner because it will have more pixels but be noisier. It all depends on what compromises you are willing to accept. 

I upgraded to the 1Dx2 and 5DIV not for mage quality because I think the 7D2 for all its faults is still a very good performer. I upgraded for focus accuracy.


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## Orangutan (Nov 23, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > tomscott said:
> ...


That's what I'm trying to figure out: will the "better" pixels of the 6D2 make up for ~40% higher linear pixel density of the 70D for low-light/noise performance.


> I upgraded to the 1Dx2 and 5DIV not for mage quality because I think the 7D2 for all its faults is still a very good performer. I upgraded for focus accuracy.


1DX2 would break my budget, unfortunately.


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## jeffa4444 (Nov 23, 2017)

We have a rental business that specialises in fashion photographers on the one hand and travel photographers on the other. 
The Nikon D500 is knocking spots off of the 7D MKII in the travel market whereas in fashion we struggle with anything Nikon (too early to say with the D850) and the 5D MKIV is the best rented Canon. 

Canon need to upgrade the 7D MKII when it launched it was underwhelming and its even more underwhelming since the arrival of the D500.


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## ahsanford (Nov 23, 2017)

jeffa4444 said:


> We have a rental business that specialises in fashion photographers on the one hand and travel photographers on the other.
> The Nikon D500 is knocking spots off of the 7D MKII in the travel market whereas in fashion we struggle with anything Nikon (too early to say with the D850) and the 5D MKIV is the best rented Canon.
> 
> Canon need to upgrade the 7D MKII when it launched it was underwhelming and its even more underwhelming since the arrival of the D500.



Curious to hear your take on the D500 doing better than the 7D2 -- what's the principal driver?

4K?
Sensor?
That inexpensive 200-500 Nikkor?

Just curious. We'll never see hard data on 7D2 vs. D500 sales, so I'll take an anecdotal read if I can get one.

- A


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## AlanF (Nov 23, 2017)

I had been very happy with my 7DII for a couple of years but sold it after I bought the 5DSR for 3 reasons: the IQ of the 5DSR, which lacks the AA filter, is significantly better; the AF is much better; and the FF gives a better field of view. The Nikon d500 , according to reports, has the first two of those advantages, as well as others.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 24, 2017)

I am wondering if the 90D may not happen, but a mirrorless version might replace it. Of course, it is not likely, but Canon may be piling resources into mirrorless.

New Rebel versions are on the way for early next year, so that frees up a development team to work on the next new model. What will it be? Mirrorless or DSLR?


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