# Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 21, 2012)

```
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<strong>APS-C replacements soon?</strong>


The first of what will probably be many spec lists about the mentioned cameras. With the knowledge of an 18mp T4i, it stands to reason that Canon will retain the same megapixel count in the next xxD and xD APS-C cameras. Still no mention whether or not it’s an updated sensor. I would certainly hope it is.</p>
<p><strong>EOS 70D</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>Digic 5</li>
<li>18mp</li>
<li>100% viewfinder with grid lines like 7D</li>
<li>19 AF Points from 7D</li>
<li>Continuous AF in LiveView & Video Recording</li>
<li>September Announcement</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>7D Mark II</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>Dual Digic 5</li>
<li>100% viewfinder</li>
<li>61 Point AF from 5D Mark III</li>
<li>Announced after 70D</li>
</ul>
<p>This is a grain of salt spec list, though I do think anything announced for Photokina would be mostly finalized by now.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## ruuneos (May 21, 2012)

So 70D would be just sensor and image processor upgrade?
And 7D Mark II would be almost fully new design?

If that's so, not going for upgrade.


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## neuroanatomist (May 21, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> *7D Mark II*
> • 61 Point AF from 5D Mark III



If true, Canon is getting positively Niokn-esque in letting this top AF system trickle down the lines.


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## messus (May 21, 2012)

If true 7D2 could be an awesome BIF cam !!


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## Woody (May 21, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> If true, Canon is getting positively Niokn-esque in letting this top AF system trickle down the lines.



If true, then I hope Canon also get Niokn-esque in providing 14 stops of dynamic range at base ISO. 

The newly announced Panasonic 12-35 mm (equiv to 24-70 FF) f/2.8 OIS lens (305 g, 58 mm filter thread) + Olympus OM-D look far more attractive to upgraders.


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## Pat Z. (May 21, 2012)

Any ideas about when it would be announced? I'm looking to upgrade to a 7D and I would hate to buy one brand new right before its brother comes out.


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## DB (May 21, 2012)

If 70D rumour is true then it is a higher spec body than current 7D, so will Canon discontinue the existing 7D model, not very likely imho, especially since they retained the 5DII, despite the introduction of the new 5D3.

Also putting the 1DX/5D3 AF system (61 point) into a 7D2 body + dual-Digic 5 processors would pitch this new body against the 1D4, I mean you're talking 10fps (maybe 12fps) with the added benefit of a little extra reach.


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## RLPhoto (May 21, 2012)

the Current 7D will become the 70D and the 7DII will become the new top Crop camera. Id like to see an improved 18mp sensor with even better AF, and 10FPS! thatd be sweet.

Knowing canons pricing system, expect 2000$ and up.


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## BXL (May 21, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p><strong>EOS 70D</strong></p>
> <ul>
> <li>Digic 5</li>
> <li>18mp</li>
> ...


Sounds great. I planned to upgrade from my XSi to the 60D or 7D this autumn but the 70D is a temptation.


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## AJ (May 21, 2012)

Those specs sound credible. And if so, the 70D looks a lot like the old 7D.


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## moreorless (May 21, 2012)

Woody said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > If true, Canon is getting positively Niokn-esque in letting this top AF system trickle down the lines.
> ...



I'm guessing that this is a large part of why Canon seems to be filtering down AF far more, it emphasizes the advantges of DSLR's over mirrorless.

Sensor wise I'm not sure the 650D being 18 MP necessarily means the 70D and 7D mk2 will be aswell, could IMHO well be that the 650D keeps the old 7D sensor and the higher end cameras debut a new sensor(espeically if it gets the 60D's AF).


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## Canon-F1 (May 21, 2012)

sounds like i don´t have to waste money on fancy gear this year.

i will not upgrade my crop bodys as long as there is no new (better) sensor in terms of DR and noise.

well so i can spend more money on vacations.


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## awinphoto (May 21, 2012)

ruuneos said:


> So 70D would be just sensor and image processor upgrade?
> And 7D Mark II would be almost fully new design?
> 
> If that's so, not going for upgrade.



70d would be getting the 100% VF, new AF system, same sensor (although one could hope they refined it to give better ISO, DR, etc), continuous AF, etc... a pretty decent upgrade... I just hope it returns to a mag alloy body. If so I may retire my 7d and pick this up as my backup body.


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## DB (May 21, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> the Current 7D will become the 70D and the 7DII will become the new top Crop camera. Id like to see an improved 18mp sensor with even better AF, and 10FPS! thatd be sweet.
> 
> Knowing canons pricing system, expect 2000$ and up.



But what about the current 7D? You're implying they discontinue it.



AJ said:


> Those specs sound credible. And if so, the 70D looks a lot like the old 7D.



It doesn't just look like the 7D it is the 7D - they've just changed the name (inserted a 'zero' to make it xxD)

Why would Canon introduce so many new camera bodies with the same basic sensor? They'll just start to cannibalize their own product range, or have the 'marketing' people totally taken over (given that their R&D spend has dropped from 9.5% of sales in 2009 to 8.5% in 2011, plus the more recent lower figure according to their latest Annual Reports & Accounts, includes a growth in spend in 'Office' & 'Industrial' divisions, hence their 3rd division 'Consumer' which includes DSLRs must be really falling big time).

It is all 'form' over 'substance'.


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## 1982chris911 (May 21, 2012)

70D sounds logical as a more or less rebodied 7D with flipscreen. However the AF of the 7D is already good enough for Bird in Flight and most sports - so the 7D mkII needs more than just a better AF and viewfinder upgrade. It needs better IQ and that is only possible with a new designed sensor ...


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## Allex15 (May 21, 2012)

I am interested in buying a 7d . I currently have a Finepix HS20 but I also shoot with my cousins 550D when possible. So, my question is: Should I wait for the 7D Mark II or just buy the 7D. I want to keep the body for like 3-4 years, so I belive the waiting will be rewarded(considering the amount of fetures from the 1DX)


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## DzPhotography (May 21, 2012)

Again, not remotely interested unless improved high ISO performance...


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## AJ (May 21, 2012)

1982chris911 said:


> 70D sounds logical as a more or less rebodied 7D with flipscreen. However the AF of the 7D is already good enough for Bird in Flight and most sports - so the 7D mkII needs more than just a better AF and viewfinder upgrade. It needs better IQ and that is only possible with a new designed sensor ...


70D and 7D2 will probably also be set apart by fps and video features (dual digic5).


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## awinphoto (May 21, 2012)

Even though it may be 18mp sensors doesn't mean that they have to be the SAME sensor... could have been improved, modified, etc to give better IQ... No one quite knows that yet... Heck the digic 5 alone could improve noise performance.


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## facedodge (May 21, 2012)

I have a feeling the new 18MP will have one stop improvement ISO at Raw and 2-3 stops in Jpeg. Similar to the 5DII vs 5DIII, but probably a bit more noticeable of an upgrade. (Some claim only one/half stop upgrade of 5D sensor.)


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## facedodge (May 21, 2012)

I also think there will be little to no improvement in dynamic range.


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## rocketdesigner (May 21, 2012)

For video shooters, the big question as the lower end updated bodies are released is:

Will It Have A Headphone Jack?

This feature will sway many of us away from the expense of the mkIII and back to a (hopefully, much...) cheaper crop sensor body like a 7D mkII.


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## Sadies Best Friend (May 21, 2012)

I note that the 7D II has rumored to have dual Digic 5 processors, not dual Digic 5+ processors (like in the 1D X). I wonder if someone could shed some light on the advantage\disadvantage of a single 5+ vs dual 5 processors... 

I have just updated my 5D II to the new 5D III and like it very much. I'm still getting used to the AF system but so far I love it. If there was anything I wish I could add it would be the ability to add extenders to some of my lenses and have f\8 AF capabilities. The compromise I currently have is my 7D's crop sensor - however the IQ of the 7D falls very short when compared to the IQ of the 5D III. I will not hold out too much hope for firmware advances for f\8 (probably a wash when a extender is attached anyway) but I will look forward to sharper images and increased performance from a 7D II!


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## pdirestajr (May 21, 2012)

1 stop of dynamic range improvements isn't exciting to marketing. Doesn't mean much to the majority of consumers either.

They'll need to push buzz worthy features like: Built-in HDR (there is their sensor DR fix), and cutting edge video features like 1080p 60fps super slomo effects. Doesn't the Nex-7 have this? Then other "features" to make you think you NEED to upgrade.

Otherwise, why update an already great camera?


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## twdi (May 21, 2012)

Anything about when they could be in the stores? 
I need a new cam for my next trip in august and I need to get to know it......


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## unfocused (May 21, 2012)

I'm trying to keep focused on the CR1 rating, but...I want to believe...I want to believe.

I don't see Canon recycling the current sensor. So, an 18mp sensor (apprx) is good news since that makes it likely Canon is focusing on sensor improvements, rather than more megapixels. Perhaps 70D and 7DII will share the same sensor and differentiate on other features (as they do currently). I'm okay with that.

70D with a new sensor, almost all the features of the current 7D, except in a 60D body. (I wouldn't be surprised if they restored micro focus adjustment, since they took some grief over that).

7DII with a new sensor, new autofocus and probably slightly higher frame rate and bigger buffer than current 7D. Same basic body, but maybe a little more weather sealing. Canon can do that, stick a fork in it, call it done and I'll be happy.


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## facedodge (May 21, 2012)

twdi said:


> 1 stop of dynamic range improvements isn't exciting to marketing. Doesn't mean much to the majority of consumers either.
> 
> They'll need to push buzz worthy features like: Built-in HDR (there is their sensor DR fix), and cutting edge video features like 1080p 60fps super slomo effects. Doesn't the Nex-7 have this? Then other "features" to make you think you NEED to upgrade.
> 
> Otherwise, why update an already great camera?



1080 at 60p... that would be nice for many out there for sure.


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## Act444 (May 21, 2012)

Normally don't comment on rumors but just want to say I'd rather Canon stick with 18MP but make improvements in DR and high ISO performance than increase MP count at the expense of those two highly important items. 18MP is honestly enough for me, and seems to already be pushing certain lenses to the edge of their performance capabilities, so...


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## LuCoOc (May 21, 2012)

twdi said:


> Anything about when they could be in the stores?
> I need a new cam for my next trip in august and I need to get to know it......



Don't even think about it. This is a CR1 rumor! Even if it was CR3 with an announcement next week, it could take 2-3 month to start shipping.

I'm glad I bought my 7D last November. It is a great camera and will stay great Camera even after any 7(0)D announcement.


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## awinphoto (May 21, 2012)

facedodge said:


> twdi said:
> 
> 
> > 1 stop of dynamic range improvements isn't exciting to marketing. Doesn't mean much to the majority of consumers either.
> ...



If the 1dx or 5d3 doesn't have it, i wouldn't hold your breath on that one...


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## awinphoto (May 21, 2012)

Act444 said:


> Normally don't comment on rumors but just want to say I'd rather Canon stick with 18MP but make improvements in DR and high ISO performance than increase MP count at the expense of those two highly important items. 18MP is honestly enough for me, and seems to already be pushing certain lenses to the edge of their performance capabilities, so...



exactly


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## c.d.embrey (May 21, 2012)

If the rumor is true, the 70D will be a real EOS  Not a POS like the 60D 

Maybe Canon has finally made an APS-C camera that will entice me to trade-in my 40D. Even better would be a mirrorless camera with these specs


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## amarlez (May 21, 2012)

I'm not buying these specs. It isn't possible to have the autofocus from the full frame 5D III on an APS-C 7D II. 

I'd like to see the 70D take the 7D II's place with dual Digic 5s and better autofocus and the 7D II to keep its autofocus, drop the frame rate and go full frame. Probably won't happen but that would keep the Canon nomenclature clean with the full-frame bodies all at xD and APS-C bodies at xxD or xxxD. Pricewise the 7D II would get pushed to $2000 and the 70D up to $1300-1500 — where Canon gives you the option of one $3500 camera or two cameras that together match the specs and cost the same.


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## Dylan777 (May 21, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> the Current 7D will become the 70D and the 7DII will become the new top Crop camera. Id like to see an improved 18mp sensor with even better AF, and 10FPS! thatd be sweet.
> 
> Knowing canons pricing system, expect 2000$ and up.



My 2cents: at least $2500.


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## dstppy (May 21, 2012)

1982chris911 said:


> 70D sounds logical as a more or less rebodied 7D with flipscreen. However the AF of the 7D is already good enough for Bird in Flight and most sports - so the 7D mkII needs more than just a better AF and viewfinder upgrade. It needs better IQ and that is only possible with a new designed sensor ...



If they did that, put MFA back in, they'd seriously have a contender, that's for sure.


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## dswatson83 (May 21, 2012)

They also need a second card slot in the 7D. Canon really needs to work on low light and DR. I can tell you on my 7D, if you push the shadows much at all, you have some serious issues and it looks like that is almost the same in the 5D mark III. The AF in the 7D is already decent for a sub $2000 camera (especially compared to the 5dII, 8fps is freakishly fast, and 18MP is plenty for almost everyone, but I would love to see better looking shadows in any new sensor and better RAW noise performance because those are weak areas of the Canon.


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## neuroanatomist (May 21, 2012)

amarlez said:


> I'm not buying these specs. It isn't possible to have the autofocus from the full frame 5D III on an APS-C 7D II.



Good point. Physically, it's probably possible, in that the 61-point AF sensor array fits within the APS-C frame (see below). The side points go right to the edge of the frame, which sounds wonderful - but probably too good to be true, as vignetting and distortion will impact AF performance (one reason why there aren't AF points right to the edge of the frame!).


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## KeithR (May 21, 2012)

Woody said:


> The newly announced Panasonic 12-35 mm (equiv to 24-70 FF) f/2.8 OIS lens (305 g, 58 mm filter thread) + Olympus OM-D look far more attractive to upgraders.



By what _possible_ measure would those toys be "far more attractive" to 7D upgraders, a great many of whom are bird/wildlife/sports shooters?


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## preppyak (May 21, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> 70d would be getting the 100% VF, new AF system, same sensor (although one could hope they refined it to give better ISO, DR, etc), continuous AF, etc... a pretty decent upgrade... I just hope it returns to a mag alloy body. If so I may retire my 7d and pick this up as my backup body.


Unless your 7D is near death, you'd be retiring it for the exact same camera. Cause the "new" 70D is just the 7D with whatever this continuous auto-focus does.



dstppy said:


> If they did that, put MFA back in, they'd seriously have a contender, that's for sure.


Wouldn't surprise me if they left it out. Keep the 70D body similar, so its better than the Ti cameras, but not weather-sealed and full-pro style like the 7D, and leave out MFA to make people who want it buy the new 7D. Cause that's one feature they can easily differentiate that will get people to upgrade.


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## Marine03 (May 21, 2012)

Is Auto Focus micro adjust something most people seem to need? Could this explain why my Nifty Fifty on my 450D sometimes seems just a little bit off?


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## KeithR (May 21, 2012)

dswatson83 said:


> Canon really needs to work on low light...


Ho-hum...

My 7D at: 3200 ISO, 5000 ISO, 6400 ISO, 8500 ISO, 12800 ISO.



> I can tell you on my 7D, if you push the shadows much at all, you have some serious issues


Yeah?

-3 EV pushed to +4 EV

Shadows and shadows recovered.



> but I would love to see better looking shadows in any new sensor and better RAW noise performance because those are weak areas of the Canon.


Not a problem at all, with intelligent conversion and PP decisions...


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## awinphoto (May 21, 2012)

preppyak said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > 70d would be getting the 100% VF, new AF system, same sensor (although one could hope they refined it to give better ISO, DR, etc), continuous AF, etc... a pretty decent upgrade... I just hope it returns to a mag alloy body. If so I may retire my 7d and pick this up as my backup body.
> ...



For me personally it's a business decision and frankly my 7d has been my workhorse for my business for the last 2.5 years and now that I've got my 5d3, all I need is a solid camera as my backup. My 7d, for whatever reason, has started intermittently giving me problems in windy and cold temperatures where it never did in the past... I suspect it's the weathersealing that has started to degenerate and frankly I can pay to have it fixed, or sell it for max price now, use the funds to buy perhaps the 70d, which may be pretty much like my old "trusty" 7d, so i'm losing nothing really, and probably pay a hundred or two difference, and in april, i get to write off 2 cameras on taxes and have a fresh new warranty... That sounds quite nice to me.


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## KeithR (May 21, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Good point. Physically, it's probably possible, in that the 61-point AF sensor array fits within the APS-C frame (see below). The side points go right to the edge of the frame, which sounds wonderful - but probably too good to be true, as vignetting and distortion will impact AF performance (one reason why there aren't AF points right to the edge of the frame!).


Yeah, but Noink use the same (near as makes no difference) 51 point AF system in the D300 and the D700/D3. True, there's more space around the AF point array in the FF cameras, but it's still the same AF system.

I don't see why Canon couldn't do this too.


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## hmmm (May 21, 2012)

*Wasn't there a previous rumor about a new sensor for 70D?*

The new 70D and 7DmkII (if we see one) will have to compete over a long 2 yr or more product life cycle with the D5200 and D7200 -- and D400 (if we see one). I think it is more plausible that we will see a new sensor in the XXd and Xd -- either an actually new and improved 18MP sensor that really does have lower-ISO DR improvement and high-ISO performance that are demonstrable for marketing -- more likely with something like a 21 MP count to compete with the Nikon products with their higher MP counts. Then the T5i would finally get this new sensor a year or so from now.

Expecting a dusted-off 18MP sensor to compete for the next two years or so is not a compelling marketing plan.


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## Peerke (May 21, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> amarlez said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not buying these specs. It isn't possible to have the autofocus from the full frame 5D III on an APS-C 7D II.
> ...



Not too good to be true, but an extra selling argument for EF (L) lenses on a crop body 8).


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## CatfishSoupFTW (May 21, 2012)

same AF system as the 5Dmrk3 on a 7Dmrk2? hmm.. thats huge jump from the 19 from before! sounds pretty awesome, but i guess it doesnt make it close to the mrk3. just because of sensor, FF, noise, etc. im liking how these higher end APS-C cameras are offering more bang for the buck. pretty exciting, but my eyes are set on the 5Dmrk3.


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## Astro (May 21, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> Heck the digic 5 alone could improve noise performance.



well im not shooting JPG.


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## EOBeav (May 21, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> Knowing canons pricing system, expect 2000$ and up.



You're probably not far off the mark. Although, still a 1.6 crop, it would be vastly superior to the FF 5DmkII that is going for ~$2200USD right now. With the 5DmkIII at ~$3500USD, there is plenty of price point head room for the latest gen 7D.


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## RLPhoto (May 21, 2012)

DB said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > the Current 7D will become the 70D and the 7DII will become the new top Crop camera. Id like to see an improved 18mp sensor with even better AF, and 10FPS! thatd be sweet.
> ...



Yes, They will discontinue it. Its logical. They discontinued alot of stuff recently if you've noticed. It would not suprise me that they discontinue the 7D for the New 7DII. Drop in a 0 and bam, 70D and re-use alot of older fabrication stuff to stretch the design until they release the 80D. Which will really be a new design.

They will discontinue the 7D, When the 7DII sales are enough. Same happened with the 5D and the 5DMKII.


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## pdirestajr (May 21, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> facedodge said:
> 
> 
> > twdi said:
> ...



I don't know about that. The 5DII didn't have 60fps @ 720p, or duel digic 4, or the fps of the 7D, or the focusing system....

It's an aps-c camera. Isn't it easier to render that speed on a smaller sensor? I'm not saying this as a "wish-list" type of thing, (I rarely shoot video) I just think Canon knows how to market.

They won't compete in DR and pixel peeping sensor nonsense, they will compete with their new market position:

The leader in HD-SLR modern day still/ motion image capturing devices. All the hottest directors and blockbuster films are using them! You can too!


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## awinphoto (May 21, 2012)

Astro said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Heck the digic 5 alone could improve noise performance.
> ...



It's a tad too early to tell... 5d3 files are far more forgiving than 5d2, even in raw... There is a slight improvement in sensor but also the digic 5+ comes in the the rescue, and whenever you read the propaganda in canon's PR, digic processors help low light improvement with no specification to jpeg or raw. It is what it is. Raws or Jpegs, I dont see any reason why there CANT be improvement to both either by digic or sensor improvements/algorithms/whatever.


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## Astro (May 21, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> It's a tad too early to tell... 5d3 files are far more forgiving than 5d2, even in raw... There is a slight improvement in sensor but also the digic 5+ comes in the the rescue, and whenever you read the propaganda in canon's PR, digic processors help low light improvement with no specification to jpeg or raw. It is what it is. Raws or Jpegs, I dont see any reason why there CANT be improvement to both either by digic or sensor improvements/algorithms/whatever.



i don´t see how the DIGIC (any) should improve noise on RAW images.
the DIGIC processor comes after the sensor readout in the chain, at least i think so, and for a RAW files there should be no in camera processing like NR, sharpening etc.

but there is not much in-depth info on the net... so if im wrong and someone could enlighten me i would be happy.


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## bbasiaga (May 21, 2012)

I would wonder if the 7DII would maybe then be a full frame camera at 18mpx? If we make a rumor stew here and combine the rumored entry level FF camera, with the rumored 5dIII AF in the 7DII - then we could have a viable separation between the 7DII and 70D. All your xDs are FF, and all your XXDs are APSc. 

I don't know, but it is fun to speculate.

-Brian


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## Marsu42 (May 21, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> 7D Mark II - Dual Digic 5



Does this mean it won't run magic lantern again? Doh. I also don't think a dual cpu design is necessary if the improvement over the digic4 is as large as I've read.



c.d.embrey said:


> If the rumor is true, the 70D will be a real EOS  Not a POS like the 60D



Canon marketing will make sure that the 70d is sufficiently crippled to make you want the 7d2.



DB said:


> Why would Canon introduce so many new camera bodies with the same basic sensor?



I guess they're recycling their sensor all over again because they simply cannot do better on aps-c. If the 18mp is not a recognizable advancement over the current generation - like 2 stops noise improvement or 2 stops dr or 1+1 - Nikon/Sony clearly has the edge for some time to come.


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## bolray (May 21, 2012)

Canon-F1 said:


> sounds like i don´t have to waste money on fancy gear this year.
> 
> i will not upgrade my crop bodys as long as there is no new (better) sensor in terms of DR and noise.
> 
> well so i can spend more money on vacations.



Damnit, tomorrow I was finally going to upgrade my 350D (after 7 years) with a 7D. Now I am confused again. :-\


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## c-law (May 21, 2012)

I think with the 7D being an actual real product that you can buy now and have been able to buy the the last few years that we can safely assume that Canon are less worried about keeping single digit xD cameras for full frames exclusively than some fans are.

I used to think that they wouldn't change an established line's sensor size but the 1D4 -> 1Dx and G12 -> G1x seem to show that it might be possible although if that were the case we'd see a 7Dx instead of a 7DII.

So my thoughts are that we'd see a 7DII and 70D as described in the rumour with the 7DII at $2500; if the 5DIII jumps $1000 for pro grade AF, I think the 7DII does as well.

Chris


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## zaphod (May 21, 2012)

My guess is that the 70d will be the body of 60d but the specs of the 7d. 
And the 7d mkII will be about the same as the 7d but with (a single digic5+ and) improved capabilities for movie mode and perhaps 10 - 20 frames per second(why not) in frame mode, full (18Mpx) resolution. That would attract the photographers that currently need the 7d. Hey! We're only speculating.


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## DB (May 21, 2012)

*Re: Wasn't there a previous rumor about a new sensor for 70D?*



hmmm said:


> The new 70D and 7DmkII (if we see one) will have to compete over a long 2 yr or more product life cycle with the D5200 and D7200 -- and D400 (if we see one). I think it is more plausible that we will see a new sensor in the XXd and Xd -- either an actually new and improved 18MP sensor that really does have lower-ISO DR improvement and high-ISO performance that are demonstrable for marketing -- more likely with something like a 21 MP count to compete with the Nikon products with their higher MP counts. Then the T5i would finally get this new sensor a year or so from now.
> 
> Expecting a dusted-off 18MP sensor to compete for the next two years or so is not a compelling marketing plan.



Ask a 'marketeer' what would they rather list as the new features in the future advertisements for the 7D Mark II?:

(a) A new improved 18MP sensor with clean images up to ISO 3200 and a DR boost from 11.7 to say 12.5

OR

(b) The same old dusty sensor but with a RATE button, continuous AF in video mode, 1080p @ 60fps, a flip-out screen, and some in-camera HDR functionality (basically an articulating LCD + a lot of 'zero' cost firmware updates - that's zero cost in terms of manufacturing).


Answer:  *"99 out of a 100 marketing people who expressed a preference, thought that (b) was a nice list"*


----------



## DB (May 21, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > RLPhoto said:
> ...



Canon has not discontinued the 5D Mark II camera. Indeed, they made a point that they would not be discontinuing it for some time as it fulfills an important gap in their DSLR product line-up i.e. FF body < $2,000.

If others are correct here, that Canon will price the 7D successor @ $2,500 then why not leave the old 7D in the line-up at roughly half the 7D2 price? That way, Rebel users who wish to shoot sports/wildlife have an affordable APS-C body to upgrade to.


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## Marsu42 (May 22, 2012)

DB said:


> That way, Rebel users who wish to shoot sports/wildlife have an affordable APS-C body to upgrade to.



I don't think Canon is in the business of being nice to wildlife shooters... on the contrary: Esp. for sports shots, you need a rather expensive lens even on a crop body, so these photogs should be able to shell out some $$$ for a body, too. Esp. if you see the 7d2 + shorter lens as an alternative to a 1dx + longer lens.


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## Timothy_Bruce (May 22, 2012)

bolray said:


> Canon-F1 said:
> 
> 
> > sounds like i don´t have to waste money on fancy gear this year.
> ...



I have done that 2 years ago and i would do it any day again!


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## traveller (May 22, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> amarlez said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not buying these specs. It isn't possible to have the autofocus from the full frame 5D III on an APS-C 7D II.
> ...









OK, so the sensor size of the D300(s) is slightly larger, but it doesn't seem to have caused too many problems for Nikon.


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## wickidwombat (May 22, 2012)

7Dii is sounding like its going to be a bit of a beast

i would dearly love it to be aps-h but i know thats dreaming deeep down

oh and i hope everyone starts preparing themselves for it being $2500+ 
so we get less "its too expensive crybaby threads like the 5Dmk3"
people need to realise that there isn't a whole lot an internet forum can do to influence canon's 
price points when the underlying demand actually provides support for their chosen price point 
even if it is more than people would like to pay.

obviously we would all like them to just give them to use for being such loyal customers :
but the reality is the price is the price if you want it you have to pay it or dont get the product


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## unfocused (May 22, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> 7Dii is sounding like its going to be a bit of a beast
> 
> i would dearly love it to be aps-h but i know thats dreaming deeep down
> 
> ...



I think you are being pessimistic about the pricing. Unlike the 5DIII which was targeted to a professional base with features that they pretty much had to have (better autofocus, better low light performance) to compete in a very competitive industry (wedding and event photography), the 7DII remains a "prosumer" camera. It may end up being a very useable tool for professionals (sports/wildlife shooters) but at heart I expect it to remain targeted to non-professionals with disposable income. (Remember too that the sports/wildlife professional base is a tiny fraction compared to wedding and event photographers.)

Positioned as it is, the 7DII cannot succeed if it's price point is $500 above the comparable Nikon D300s successor.

Still, despite my views, I recognize that I could be wrong. If I am, I do make this promise: "I will not whine, moan or threaten on any internet forum to switch brands if the price of the 7DII is more than I want to spend."

I do, however, reserve the right to complain a bit if they "cheap it down" to a 60D level or stick a high megapixel but inferior sensor in the thing.


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## borntoshoot (May 22, 2012)

I don't know about everyone else...but for me to upgrade to the 70D it has to have more AF points, improved DR, improved high ISO performance, an alloy body...then I will start to consider it.


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## wickidwombat (May 22, 2012)

I think they are going to spec it up to more of a crop PRO camera than a prosumer camera
that AF and i think we will see build quality on a par with the 5Dmk3 it will be a PRO grade sport / wildlife monster.

of course these are just my guesses 

but I think they have taken notice of all the sport wildlife shooters despairs at the loss of the crop with the 1D4 going away, so its going to step up a grade and the 70D will correct all the mistakes that happened with the 60D and if it gets the current 7D AF its going to be a wicked and capable little package for those looking for something cheaper. The 70D will be the prosumer body, Rebel the entry and the xxxxD line will either disappear completely or become the mirrorless line


oh yeah and it will not have 14 stops of DR at base iso so everyone needs to prepare for that, start stocking up on tinned food, water guns and ammunition now because the mayans were wrong the end of the world was not caused by the sun its because canon couldn't beat nikon in DR....


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## DB (May 22, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> I think they are going to spec it up to more of a crop PRO camera than a prosumer camera
> that AF and i think we will see build quality on a par with the 5Dmk3 it will be a PRO grade sport / wildlife monster.



Just recall where the original spec list for the 7D came from - the 5,000 questionnaires sent out by Canon to Pro shooters on what they'd expect to see in a Crop body. The reason the 7D is so successful is, because it is the synthesis of aspiration of what the professional photographic community wanted to see attached to their 'L' zooms.


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## maxxevv (May 22, 2012)

The information is scarce at best at this point, so the best we can speculate would be how Canon can 'differentiate' the 7DII if it were to keep its crown as the top crop-sensor DSLR.. ?? 

My guess is that is going be the same weather-resistant build quality as the 7D and 5DmkIII. If it has the same AF as the 5DIII, then it has to push up in its price. Possibly into the US$2500-3000/- realm ('Pro AF' comes at a price ... ) . To justify that, it would have to be an extra-special camera for users. They might... just might put in an APS-H sensor with tweaks for APS-C mode, EF-S lens compatibility. 

It would be a fantastic 'bridge' camera between ASP-C and FF. Essentially a mini-1DmkIV that many people want!


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 22, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> Again, not remotely interested unless improved high ISO performance...



Probably only1/3 stop better high ISO since the 7D already had gapless microlenses, split green filters, etc.
but who knows


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 22, 2012)

pdirestajr said:


> 1 stop of dynamic range improvements isn't exciting to marketing. Doesn't mean much to the majority of consumers either.
> 
> They'll need to push buzz worthy features like: Built-in HDR (there is their sensor DR fix), and cutting edge video features like 1080p 60fps super slomo effects. Doesn't the Nex-7 have this? Then other "features" to make you think you NEED to upgrade.
> 
> Otherwise, why update an already great camera?



first it's nearly 3 stops better DR
and second why could that be marketed any less than high iso noise or MP or whatnot?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 22, 2012)

pdirestajr said:


> 1 stop of dynamic range improvements isn't exciting to marketing. Doesn't mean much to the majority of consumers either.
> 
> They'll need to push buzz worthy features like: Built-in HDR (there is their sensor DR fix), and cutting edge video features like 1080p 60fps super slomo effects. Doesn't the Nex-7 have this? Then other "features" to make you think you NEED to upgrade.
> 
> Otherwise, why update an already great camera?



It would rather annoy 5D3 users if they held back better DR for the action cams 1DX and 7D2 and lower end 70D and then left it out of the top landscape/general cam the 5D3 though, but then again, Canon has always been logical about what goes where.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 22, 2012)

amarlez said:


> I'm not buying these specs. It isn't possible to have the autofocus from the full frame 5D III on an APS-C 7D II.



Why not?
If they expand the AF mirror width to almost that of the main mirror width then it can supply the same thing the 5D3 does. It might take more power and care to drive that mirror system that would now be maybe like APS-H bulk overall though.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 22, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> amarlez said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not buying these specs. It isn't possible to have the autofocus from the full frame 5D III on an APS-C 7D II.
> ...



What vignetting and distortion? It's not like the lenses project anything different than they do on FF. Yeah maybe a few EF-S or APS-C only lenses might have troubles with the outermost points but they can lock them out, the 5D3 AF allows varying number of points for different lenses so the code is already programmed to be able to take care of that they just assign each EF-S the correct category.


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## RLPhoto (May 22, 2012)

DB said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > DB said:
> ...



I didnt say the 5D MKII was discontinued, I pointed out that the 5D (IE the Original 5D classic Model) was sold along side the 5D MKII for a short while until production ceased after a few months. Its probable that canon will do the same with the 7D. Sell all the 7D stock until sales justify ending the production of this model, while prepping future buyers with the 70D release, and continue to sell the re-badged 7D classic as the NEW 70D!

This will allow both profits and the re-use of old fabrication lines of the 7D classic parts in the NEW 70D.


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## nicku (May 22, 2012)

interesting move from Canon...they will move 70D little bit UP in the line and 7Dmk2 even more up closer and closer to the 1D4.


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## drummstikk (May 22, 2012)

bbasiaga said:


> I would wonder if the 7DII would maybe then be a full frame camera at 18mpx?



I'm usually wrong on this stuff, but I really don't understand why Canon would want to put out a "cheap" full frame camera. Even though there had been much griping about the price of the 5DIII, it's spent a lot of time back-ordered at many shops. Why cannibalize sales on a big seller with a cheaper model?

As another has alluded to, I also don't see why they would want to continue to have three tiers of APS-C camera (Rebel, XXD, and XD). I would look for "70D" to take over as the mid-range prosumer model, hopefully restoring the more solid build quality and feel that was compromised in the shift from 50D to 60D. Then (and here's me starting to wish) I'd like to see the 7D market space filled with an APS-H camera. I'd hate to see APS-H end with the 1D MkIV. APS-H doesn't match full-frame for shallow DOF effects, but it is a nice upgrade from APS-C in this area and it gives a little more reach with tele lenses than FF.


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## aznable (May 22, 2012)

ruuneos said:


> So 70D would be just sensor and image processor upgrade?



upgrade from what? with digic V i would expect a bump on real fps, putting it at the same level of 50D; big upgrade for autofocus too if those rumors are true


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## Marsu42 (May 22, 2012)

nicku said:


> interesting move from Canon...they will move 70D little bit UP in the line and 7Dmk2 even more up closer and closer to the 1D4.



...but sadly also predictable: Canon has raised the price of all follow-up products heavily lately (24-70ii, 5d3, 600rt, ...), and since it seems to work out they'll continue doing it. Maybe they're atm wondering why they didn't sell the 5d3 at $4000 because the people who bought it would have gotten it for any price short of the 1dx price tag :-o



drummstikk said:


> I'm usually wrong on this stuff, but I really don't understand why Canon would want to put out a "cheap" full frame camera. Even though there had been much griping about the price of the 5DIII, it's spent a lot of time back-ordered at many shops. Why cannibalize sales on a big seller with a cheaper model?



Let's pray for more competition: Since it's crippled anyway because people are stuck to their lenses, only strong pressure - pr or sales - from Sony and Nikon will make canon release a 5d2 successor with a comparable price.


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## briansquibb (May 22, 2012)

I was out shooting motorsports with my 7D and 1D4. 

The 7D did very well (it was good light) but it was clear on the big prints that the IQ was not up to the 1D4.

The headline improvements sound good for the 7DII - however there are still a lot of things that need to be improved for the 7DII to catch up. I am not of the opinion the DR is the highest priority until better control of the metering happens

For example for sports/moving wildlife/birds:

Metering on the AF point - very important in the summer with high contrast
Ability to shoot in M mode with AutoIso and EC


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## whatta (May 22, 2012)

if 70d is indeed gaining "everything" from 7d except fps, size, weight (basically body) it might be the one for me. Especially interested in the viewfinder and AF.


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## Wrathwilde (May 22, 2012)

traveller said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > amarlez said:
> ...



If they dropped the EF-S lens support for the 7D2... then vignetting and distortion shouldn't be any more of a problem for the AF than it is now on Canon's FF cameras. Alternatively, they could keep compatibility with EF-S lenses and disable the outermost AF points... to keep lens distortion from being an issue.

On another note, regarding the dual Digic 5 processors... I don't see it happening, I betting on a single Digic 5+. No need for the expense of dual processors when one will do the job just fine.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde


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## Marine03 (May 22, 2012)

whatta said:


> if 70d is indeed gaining "everything" from 7d except fps, size, weight (basically body) it might be the one for me. Especially interested in the viewfinder and AF.



Didn't the rumor the other day suggest that the 7D2 would be closer to 11 or 12 FPS? Which leaves room for a 70D with new Sensor, Digic 5 1 or 2 of them with 8FPS still and 19pt AF. For those who want it there is still an upgrade of 4 FPS and a heck of a lot of AF points.


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## Dylan777 (May 22, 2012)

I'll take 70D - I do need a crop body, but not SUPER FAST as 7D II.


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## whatta (May 22, 2012)

Marine03 said:


> whatta said:
> 
> 
> > if 70d is indeed gaining "everything" from 7d except fps, size, weight (basically body) it might be the one for me. Especially interested in the viewfinder and AF.
> ...



Indeed, I think there is more than enough room to differentiate the 70d from 7d2 (and from 60d and 7d) even if they share the sensor like in the current models. Personally I am not interested in fps, so the slower (probably cheaper) the better for the 70d.


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## awinphoto (May 22, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > amarlez said:
> ...



I think he's referring to some of the lenses that natoriously have distortion and vignetting like the 17-40, 16-35, perhaps even the standard ef-s lenses at the wide end and 10-20, etc... I dont think it would be as bad as some would fear, but what do i know. If nikon can trickle down one of the top AF to it's D300's, i'm sure canon can do it as well.


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## bbasiaga (May 22, 2012)

drummstikk said:


> bbasiaga said:
> 
> 
> > I would wonder if the 7DII would maybe then be a full frame camera at 18mpx?
> ...



Good points, all. Though, does anyone know the real sales numbers of 5DIIIs? My local shop was talking about this the other day. They get 2-3 shipped to them a month, and sell that many easily. But they aren't selling tons and tons of them. Leaves the question open whether the supply problem is really one of demand, or one created by Canon due to the very metered release of units. 

The lower cost full frame would be a seller, so I can see room for it. The 5dII still sells, so would a replacement at the same price point. It doesn't cannibalize as many sales of the 5DIII as you'd think - its people who can't afford or justify the cost of the 5DIII but still want FF performance who buy this camera (small studios, avid consumers?). 

It'll be very interesting to see what comes of these seires of rumors. It'll tell what Canon is thinking. 

-Brian


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## dlleno (May 22, 2012)

Wrathwilde said:


> On another note, regarding the dual Digic 5 processors... I don't see it happening, I betting on a single Digic 5+. No need for the expense of dual processors when one will do the job just fine.
> 
> Cheers,
> Wrathwilde



it will be interesting to see --- the 7D architecture itsef is already dual Digic 4, so maybe dual digic 5 is not that far "out there" in terms of feasibility (i.e. depending on Digic 5 architecture, it may drop in nicely to the 7D bus..). 

additional ramblings:

I wonder if single Digic 5+ would differentiate the 7D2 very well from the others, esp since it is dual digic 4 today. Note that it takes 2 Digic 5+s and a Digic 4 in the 1DX to produce 12fps with an 18mp sensor, although I'm seeing reports of acheiving 14 fps ... I just wonder if 7D2 might need more than a single Digic 5+ to get above the current 8 fps (A single Digic 5 can produce 10fps in the powershot, but this is only a 12MP sensor). Dual Digic 5 in the 7D2, with appropriate firmware and throttling of the I/O bus, could easily acheive 10fps, leaving room for the superior 1DX performance. 

... but I don't know that much about Digic processors, or if a single Digic 5+ could produce 10fps with 18MP, given the right I/O subsystem. And I'm also assuming that 7D2 will bump up the fps, and that hasn't been verified either.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 22, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



But they won't do any worse than they would on the 5D3 and the 16-35's are actually among the MOST wide AF capable, being class A, all 61 points optimally. And even the 17-40 is only group C which still allows for all 61 points, all cross as cross, the only thing that loses is all of the center column double precision diagonal cross.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (May 22, 2012)

dlleno said:


> Wrathwilde said:
> 
> 
> > On another note, regarding the dual Digic 5 processors... I don't see it happening, I betting on a single Digic 5+. No need for the expense of dual processors when one will do the job just fine.
> ...



1DX does 14fps with the mirror up, the processing can handle 14fps, it's the mirror that can't (although i think there is a limit to very high ISO because it can't quite do NR fast enough then)

1DX only uses the two digi 5+ for speed the digic iv has nothing to do with the throughput it is only used to drive the fancy new metering chip and the color/face tracking mode assist for phase detected AF.


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## dlleno (May 22, 2012)

ok good to know. still, if it takes dual digic5+ to get to 14fps, what does that say about the the capability of a single digic 5+ to exceed the present 8fps requiring dual digic 4? 

At first glance, and a cursory read on wikipedia, it does appear that 1 digic 5+ would outrun a pair of 4's, but with all the extra noise processing going on I'm not sure how much of the Digic 5 speed actually translates into fps capability

and you're right about the mirror being part of the limitation. interesting to see what 7D2 does in that regard, i.e. will it offer a mirror-up burst, or what is the practical upper limit when the mirror is operational.


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## neuroanatomist (May 22, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> 1DX only uses the two digi 5+ for speed the digic iv has nothing to do with the throughput it is only used to drive the fancy new metering chip and the color/face tracking mode assist for phase detected AF.



Hmmmm....then why is the Digic 4 chip in there at all? Most likely, it's there because if the dual Digic 5+' had to handle the metering, the camera could not achieve 12/14 fps. So it may have a lot to do with the throughput, albeit indirectly.


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## babarasghar (May 23, 2012)

i reckon 70D will be a single processor APSC bad ass in 7D body 
n 7D2 will be pitched against D600 of nikon ie full frame in a plasticy body ...
cause if canon is not prepairing grounds to compete D600 then things will be very very difficult for an apsc 7D2 ...


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## Richard8971 (May 23, 2012)

I would have to imagine that a 70D upgrade would follow the path of the 60D, otherwise a 7D replacement would have to place it "closer" (minus FF) to the 5D3, which wouldn't make much sence, unless it came with a higher MP sensor than 18. I only say that because of the fact that the 7D was placed too closely to the 50D in terms of "features", Canon had to "downgrade" the 60D to make the 7D seem more attractive for buyers and users. (Don't get me wrong, I like the 60D, it's a very good camera)

The 7D is one heck of a camera. It is loaded with features and is still "high-tech" even from today's standards. They would have to replace it with something that would make even the 5D3 stand up and take notice. I mean heck, they took the best of the 5D2 and the best of the 7D to make the 5D3!

18MP cannot be where Canon levels the playing field, even if it is an "upgraded" sensor. If the new 7D2 is 18MP, I cannot imagine too many features added that would justity upgrading my current 7D. (Even if it shoots 10 FPS, or more and dual digic 5) Now, IF the 7D2 came with a 24, 30, or higher MP sensor (ASP-H, or ASP-C) sensor and shot 8 or 10 FPS, then I might consider it. Or if it came with a FF sensor, but I wouldn't trade it for a "lesser" MP sensor (14, 16, or otherwise) for the current 7's speed. Now that being said, if the 7D2 was 16MP FF and shot 10 FPS, then I may look into it. Video is not something I care about (or use) so I don't worry about what features or not it has with video. 

My opinions are based on a possible "entry" level of a cheaper FF camera (that is also rumored to be 18MP) from Canon. They need bodies to fill different price ranges and features. A return of the 70D to the status it had before (I.E. 40D, 50D...) would make the placement of any 7D upgrade a difficult one for Canon.

D


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## floex712 (May 23, 2012)

The specs for the 7D II seem plausible and more than likely what will come to fruition. An upgrade to the 7D would retain the Dual processers or it wouldn't be much of an upgrade. Although the 61 point AF system from the 5D III is likely, one can assume it may come down to a 41 point system as this would be top of the line APS-C body and not FF. However, if they implement the 61 point AF system from the 5D III, you'll hear NO complaints from me. 8fps is a lot so can't really speculate on that. Also, we will no doubt see an improvement on high ISO performance and overall IQ. A 3.2" screen size would be nice as well. I guess this is me making assumptions on what my wish-list is for the 7D II.  I can't really say I care for them to make the switch to SD card storage. Dual CF slots would be welcome and I wouldn't protest to 1 CF and 1 SD slot. 

As far as the 70D, the biggest thing I would ask for is that it be returned to a Mag Alloy body.


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## briansquibb (May 23, 2012)

I think the AF from the 1D4 would fit straight into the 7D2


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## moreorless (May 23, 2012)

babarasghar said:


> i reckon 70D will be a single processor APSC bad ass in 7D body
> n 7D2 will be pitched against D600 of nikon ie full frame in a plasticy body ...
> cause if canon is not prepairing grounds to compete D600 then things will be very very difficult for an apsc 7D2 ...



I'm not really seeing how those two cameras would be competing agenst each other, one sounds like its going to be offering high IQ in a more amature body while the other will be targeted more towards the pro market with advanatges in most other areas.

If the 7D mk2 really does look to target the 1D market for a high quality crop action camera I wonder whether Canon will back it up with future quality EF-s lenses? the crop is much more significant afterall and I'm guessing alot of users would like a 17-55 2.8 IS with professional build/sealing.


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## Birdshooter (May 23, 2012)

Funny to see that there are a whole lot of users, wanting that the 7D will go full frame. I don't think that that is going to happen, because the target market for the 7D is not full frame. 
It is THE wildlife body for prosumers and there are thousands of them out there.

These users want a body which is capable of shooting fast in low light conditions, and is using a crop factor. It needs to have spot on AF system. The 7D was a huge improvement over the 40D. 

What is left to wish for and what would justify a upgrade?
- New 18MP sensor (is more than enough for wildlife, look at 1D)
- Better noise peformance in low light as well as low ISO
- Magaloy body, fully weathersealed
- Metering on AF point
- 8-10 fps
- no popup flash but build in radio controller

Why not FF?
- to get the same amount of detail after cropping the image, you would need a 46MP FF sensor. Because the target market is wildlife, you would still need to have 8 fps. At that MP level, the camera would be more expensive than the 1Dx. 

7DII will be the top of the line APS-C

1Dx: Best of two worlds! (if you can buy this body, the lenses to go with it is no problem either!)
5DIII: Prosumer Full Frame (Portrait, Studio, Landscape)
7DII: Prosumer APS-C (Sports, Wildlife)

xxD series, for the amateurs, but I do see the option that a entry FF would fit in here (16 MP 2.5 fps)

xxxD series, entry level

xxxxD, toy series. Will remain, to make money, and is always a mix of old components of other series.


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## dlleno (May 23, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> The 7D is one heck of a camera. It is loaded with features and is still "high-tech" even from today's standards. They would have to replace it with something that would make even the 5D3 stand up and take notice. I mean heck, they took the best of the 5D2 and the best of the 7D to make the 5D3!


 much depends on the future of Canon's participation in the premier wildlife (crop) body space. If they stay in it, then 7D2 will have to make the 1D4 take notice, I would say.


> 18MP cannot be where Canon levels the playing field, even if it is an "upgraded" sensor. If the new 7D2 is 18MP, I cannot imagine too many features added that would justity upgrading my current 7D. (Even if it shoots 10 FPS, or more and dual digic 5) Now, IF the 7D2 came with a 24, 30, or higher MP sensor (ASP-H, or ASP-C) sensor and shot 8 or 10 FPS, then I might consider it. Or if it came with a FF sensor, but I wouldn't trade it for a "lesser" MP sensor (14, 16, or otherwise) for the current 7's speed.



But -- consider that Canon just announced a new18mp (FF) camera, with a new sensor along with a boat load of featuers beyond the 7D. Moreover, today's 16MP 1D4 is still suprior to todays 7D in many respects


> Now that being said, if the 7D2 was 16MP FF and shot 10 FPS, then I may look into it. Video is not something I care about (or use) so I don't worry about what features or not it has with video.


consider that you can purchase a 1D4 today, which exceeds these requirements.


> My opinions are based on a possible "entry" level of a cheaper FF camera (that is also rumored to be 18MP) from Canon. They need bodies to fill different price ranges and features. A return of the 70D to the status it had before (I.E. 40D, 50D...) would make the placement of any 7D upgrade a difficult one for Canon.



Agreed that the 7D2 positioning will be interesting to watch, especially if 1.3x goes away. I don't see xxD line filing the premiere wildlife crop-of-some-sort market ,but 7D2 could do that if the timing with the 1D4 was carefully done. The 1D4 is aging, but still spanks the 7D (except for price!), so the 7D2 intro would have to leap frog the 1D4 in my opinion (even if a breakthrough in price per performance). Canon appears to be forcing the serious high-dollar wildlife guys into buying a lot of glass (move from crop to 1DX), so many would like to see 7D2 as the premiere crop body wildlife body -- including the possibility of 1.3x. I'm in that camp too.


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## ruuneos (May 23, 2012)

7D Owners!
*Are you going for upgrade?*

I'm not going to upgrade my gear, next upgrade what I will do is going to FF.
Haven't seen any good rumors about 7D2 specs yet what makes me feel to upgrade, only things what I've put note is new 18mp sensor, 61pt AF and better noise performance. So probably not going to upgrade my gear just because of those.


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## RLPhoto (May 23, 2012)

Now that I Think about the canon lineup, 1.3X could work like this

1DX- full frame 

5DIII - full frame

7D2 - 1.3X w/10 fps

70D - 1.6X crop, 

Rebel - 1.6X Crop


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> 7D2 - 1.3X w/10 fps



They'll have to call it something different. I doubt they'll convert the 7-series from APS-C and compatible with EF-S lenses to APS-H and incompatible with EF-S lenses - that would create a lot of confusion.


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## dlleno (May 23, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> Now that I Think about the canon lineup, 1.3X could work like this
> 
> 1DX- full frame
> 
> ...



Even with a 1.6, 7D2 could still be the premiere crop body with dual digic 5, and some derivative of the 5D3 AF system, and 10fps, mag body weather sealed, and differentiated from the xxD. I like the 1.3x though that would be a nice surprise, and make the 7D2 a worthy successor to the 1D4, although it might not be called a 7D...


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## dlleno (May 23, 2012)

moreorless said:


> If the 7D mk2 really does look to target the 1D market for a high quality crop action camera I wonder whether Canon will back it up with future quality EF-s lenses? the crop is much more significant afterall and I'm guessing alot of users would like a 17-55 2.8 IS with professional build/sealing.



true enough, but I'd suggest Canon's strategy is not there, it is to compel us to buy a FF body. In this respect, the wildlife body is positioned as a 2nd (specialized) body where high quality wide angle lenses are not important. and if they are, the serious guys will have a FF body anyway. 

I'm seeing a Canon revenue strategy to encourage more people to have two cameras and to invest in more "L" glass.


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2012)

dlleno said:


> Even with a 1.6, 7D2 could still be the premiere crop body with dual digic 5, and some derivative of the 5D3 AF system, and 10fps, mag body weather sealed, and differentiated from the xxD. I like the 1.3x though that would be a nice surprise, and make the 7D2 a worthy successor to the 1D4, although it might not be called a 7D...



Personally, I'd like a 1DIV / 7D hybrid - build of the 1-series including integrated grip, APS-C sensor (hopefully with IQ improvements over the current 18 MP version), 12 fps, 1D X-like AF system, etc.


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## moreorless (May 23, 2012)

Birdshooter said:


> What is left to wish for and what would justify a upgrade?
> - New 18MP sensor (is more than enough for wildlife, look at 1D)
> - Better noise peformance in low light as well as low ISO



To me it seems like the sensor needs of a 7D like this maybe starting to diverge from the rest of Canon's crop bodies.

The xxxD and xxD are I'd guess going to remain all rounders and many users would probabley be hoping for an increase in resolution from the previous generation. The 7D mk2 in these rumours seems like its moving away from being an all rounder with a slight bias to action into a more pure action body.

Could this be better suited by Canon dropping the 7D's MP count down to say 16 inline with the 1D4 and maxmising ISO/FPS performance while bumping the 70D and the 650D/700D up above 20 to compete with Nikon?

The would also provide more product seperation between the 7D and xxD lines aswell meaning the latter wouldnt need to be handicapped.


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## unfocused (May 23, 2012)

Take a look at how Pentax is marketing their new K-30. http://www.pentaximaging.com/dslr/K-30_Black#!product-support

There are a several of interesting points here.

Oftentimes on this forum, I read comments that imply that the only thing average consumers care about is more and more megapixels. That other features don't matter. But, really, people care about megapixels because that is what manufacturers told us to care about during the early years of DSLRs. It made sense at the time because the technology was developing rapidly and the sensor advancements from generation to generation were significant.

Now as the technology matures and resolution becomes less important, manufacturers are looking at other features to differentiate themselves. 

This is an interesting choice on the part of Pentax. 

Of course, it's also interesting because of the bar it will be setting for Canon, Nikon, Sony and Fuji. The K-30 competes against the 60D, so will Canon respond with some weathersealing on the 70D? At a minimum, the 7DII will need some serious weathersealing to justify the price differential.

_(As an aside – when I saw the ad, I wondered what their legal department thought. The ad visual certainly implies that the camera is virtually waterproof and the copy even talks about sand and beaches. It's either incredibly well sealed, they have a generous repair policy or they are prepared for a heck of a class action suit. )_

I've never thought that much about weathersealing. But as with any successful ad campaign, this one certainly caught my attention and got me thinking about the advantages of full weather sealing. Now I want it in the 7DII and I didn't even know I did. Good marketing.

The point here is not to turn this into a discussion of the pros and cons of weathersealing, or to do a big comparison between the various levels of the current 7D, 5D and 1D, but to point out that the conventional wisdom that drives many of the discussions on this forum can be quickly upended by what happens in the marketplace.

61 point autofocus...gotta have it; 256,000 ISO...gotta have it; more dynamic range...gotta have it; etc. etc. Marketing raises the expectations. Competition raises the bar. Consumers get a better product. Gotta love capitalism.


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## dlleno (May 23, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Oftentimes on this forum, I read comments that imply that the only thing average consumers care about is more and more megapixels. That other features don't matter. But, really, people care about megapixels because that is what manufacturers told us to care about during the early years of DSLRs. It made sense at the time because the technology was developing rapidly and the sensor advancements from generation to generation were significant.


true, and at the time (for example, from 8 to 10), a megapixel jump told the essential story of realizable, end-to-end resolving power and also represented the technology frontier.


> Now as the technology matures and resolution becomes less important, manufacturers are looking at other features to differentiate themselves.


 I would draw a distinction between megapixels and resolution, and suggest the differentiator should really be end-to-end system resolution, not just the number of megapixels or the theoretical resolving power of the sensor. Marketing departments should express end to end resolution in a way that is easy to understand, and that includes the capability of the LP filter and the processor as well -- some metric that would differentiate two cameras in a 10 second elevator speech. Maybe it is "effective pixels" I don't know, but some way to express the capability of the entire technology chain.


> I've never thought that much about weathersealing. But as with any successful ad campaign, this one certainly caught my attention and got me thinking about the advantages of full weather sealing. Now I want it in the 7DII and I didn't even know I did. Good marketing.


 nice observation! now I want it more than I did before, and I want full 1D4 capable weather sealing 


> The point here is not to turn this into a discussion of the pros and cons of weathersealing, or to do a big comparison between the various levels of the current 7D, 5D and 1D, but to point out that the conventional wisdom that drives many of the discussions on this forum can be quickly upended by what happens in the marketplace.



no kidding. and maybe as the actual number of pixels within the sensor become only part of the story, perhaps we will see some creative marketing on Canon's part, and I for one am looking foward to comparing the vision in my head of what the 7D2 should be, with what Canon sees and actually produces!


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## Orangutan (May 23, 2012)

Re: Pentax weather sealing

I have a co-worker who has a K-20. He says he uses it in all weather without problem. He is also an avid water sports person, and uses it in those contexts. He's never had a problem with water. It's a single data point, but maybe Pentax weather sealing really is that good. I'd love to have that on a similarly-priced Canon.


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## Marsu42 (May 23, 2012)

Orangutan said:


> I'd love to have that on a similarly-priced Canon.



... but we know it won't happen because Pentax has to gain market share by putting features in affordable bodies that Canon & Nikon reserve for their expensive ones. A pity, since I cannot imagine how some seals would cost only more than a couple of dollars.


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## Orangutan (May 23, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> A pity, since I cannot imagine how some seals would cost only more than a couple of dollars.



Probably a bit more than that: they have to design the structure and controls to work properly with the seals. I think the expense/difficulty/business "cost" is that they then have to deal with warranty issues related to leakage. A number of n00bs will falsely assume they can play Jacques Cousteau with them, and cause support costs to increase. Sure, Pentax has to deal with that too, but at smaller volumes. And, as you say, Canon and Nikon are in the position of maximizing profit rather than competing for market share. 

I'd pay an extra $50-$75 for a really well-sealed 70D or 7D2....or entry-level FF.


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## Marsu42 (May 23, 2012)

Orangutan said:


> Probably a bit more than that: they have to design the structure and controls to work properly with the seals.



But having designed generations of sealed bodies, they should have to open the other drawer "pro" next to the drawer "consumer", not much additional cost in this 



Orangutan said:


> I think the expense/difficulty/business "cost" is that they then have to deal with warranty issues related to leakage.



I understood there is no warranty on weather sealing? It may work if you're lucky, but if it fails Canon will always tell "you it's your fault"? If this is the case, then noobs who use their eos for diving shots will help Canon service to make some money.


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## dlleno (May 23, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> I understood there is no warranty on weather sealing? It may work if you're lucky, but if it fails Canon will always tell "you it's your fault"? If this is the case, then noobs who use their eos for diving shots will help Canon service to make some money.



yea I think what Canon is leaning on here is reputation and the fact that "it works" rather than put a guarentee of some sort in place, which would just add cost. Really, they can produce the same camera for some $$ less without a warranty on the weather sealing, and that cost has nothing to do with how good the seals are, it has to do with administrating the warranty -- adding call center folks to field claims, writing documentation to support the call center agents, involving the legal dept, etc. etc.. brilliant strategy though; just $$ in their pocket to skip the warranty. it will be interesting to see if the Pentax approach will impact the 7D2 though, and if Canon will rest on their "un-warranted" weather sealing laurals or increase the price to cover the costs of a warranty. 

7D2 needs to be 'fully' weather sealed in my opinion, just like the 1D4. in fact, 7D2 should be a lot like the 1D4 imho, although I'm riding the fence re: gripped body. What I'm not sure of is whether or it would be feasible to adapt the 1D body to APS-C, though I personally suspect 7D will retain the current body and become the first fully sealed non-gripped body for Canon.


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## trid1977 (May 23, 2012)

I'm interested in the 7D MKII.
I didn't get the MKI because I had expected an Articulating screen. I'd also like multi-spot metering like my T90. the 7D also had that soft focus issue that never seemed to get resolved. And I'd like a bigger sensor than the APS-C. I'm not so interested in more pixels to sacrifice quality of image.


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## Marsu42 (May 23, 2012)

trid1977 said:


> I didn't get the MKI because I had expected an Articulating screen.



Your amount of friends with a 7d1 just dropped to zero 



dlleno said:


> it has to do with administrating the warranty -- adding call center folks to field claims, writing documentation to support the call center agents, involving the legal dept, etc. etc..



I think there's no way to legally administer this at all, and I don't think Pentax' sealing is covered by warranty: So there was water in the body and corrosion killed it. There is no way to figure out what happened, so they'd have to replace the body in every single case - and since the non-d1 bodies are not sealed for heavy duty use, that's indeed a price problem.


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## pj1974 (May 24, 2012)

I have the Canon 7D, and believe any 7DmkII will be an APS-C (1.6x crop) with quite a similar feature set as the current 7D. 

It appears the current areas Canon might be looking to improve are:
- basic IQ (eg lower noise at respective ISOs, higher dynamic range)
- possibly AF / metering improvements
- maybe minor tweaks to video
- slight FPS increase

However even if the last 3 didn't improve, I would be interested to upgrade WHEN my 7D retires / dies, etc. I have taken tens of thousands of great photos with my 7D including landscape, wildlife, macros, etc. 

The build quality, handling and overall feature set are fine for me. A slight improvement to image quality would be all I ask for. But I don't want it to go full frame, nor APS-H (1.3x crop). If an articulated screen is included, that could be good for some awkward to position macros (for which I often use live view), and certain videoing (which I do rarely).

Let's see what the future holds. Competition and advances in technology are good. 8)

Paul


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## unfocused (May 24, 2012)

> I don't think Pentax' sealing is covered by warranty:



Warranty probably won't matter much. Here in the U.S. there will be trial lawyers falling all over themselves to file a class action suit if Pentax doesn't stand behind their claims. The picture of the camera with water splashing all over it...the statements about beaches (sand being probably a far bigger risk than water). Those would be hard to overcome. 

Of course, the attorney's will settle. They'll get several million for their efforts and the customers will get a certificate for 5% off their next Pentax. Greetings from the Land of Lawsuits.


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## Richard8971 (May 24, 2012)

dlleno said:


> Moreover, today's 16MP 1D4 is still suprior to todays 7D in many respects...
> 
> Consider that you can purchase a 1D4 today, which exceeds these requirements...
> 
> The 1D4 is aging, but still spanks the 7D_ (except for price!), _  so the 7D2 intro would have to leap frog the 1D4 in my opinion (even if a breakthrough in price per performance).



I agree with you 100% esp on the PRICE issue. The 1D4 _better_ be a better camera at twice the cost of the 7. Any upgrade of the 7 to equal/exceed the 1D4 (in terms of overall features/speed/image quality) would perhaps raise the price??? Yes? A 7D upgrade that costs over 2 grand would be a real stetch for me to justify it (because I recently spent 1550 bucks on my new 7) and that's the biggest reason I don't own a 1D4, it's outside of my price range. 

The 5D3 is also placed (price wise) just outiside of what I can justify spending on a camera. So instead I purchased a lightly used 5D2 from a friend who upgraded to a new 5D3 for 1600 bucks and it came with a battery grip! I couldn't be happier, the 5D2 is an awesome camera.

I love my 7 and it's speed. It's worth every penny spent. I would imagine I will be using it for years to come and enjoying every minute of it. Any upgrade would have to be really impressive to make me want to upgrade, and I mean REALLY impressive.

D


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## babarasghar (May 24, 2012)

1DX- Flagship full frame 

5DIII - Mainstream full frame

7D2 - Flagship APSC

4D or XD? - Entry level FF (something has to come here against D600 of Nikon)

70D - Semi Pro APSC 

Rebel T4i - Entry Level APSC

and i think from price point of view if 7D2 remains an APSC n there is no cheap FF from Canon ... only hardcore wildlife PGers will go for it n it will still be a famous body for many but many APSC landscapers and others currently on APSC would be happy to switch brands for a cheap FF
i say even lowering the price of 5D2 would make it a good enough competitor against 600D ... 
it ticks all the requirements of a cheap entry level FF body in present scenario ... and i think what canon couldnt do with 5d3 ... a cheaper 5d2 might do it again for them .. ie denting the sales figuers of D800/E

but canon n nikon have never played like Nvidia n AMD/ATI have ... pitching a product directly against oppositions product ...
either a step-up or a step-down features at a premium price ... thus making life of consumers miserable n difficult to decide what to choose


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## Richard8971 (May 24, 2012)

pj1974 said:


> But I don't want it to go full frame, nor APS-H (1.3x crop).
> 
> Paul



You know Paul, I used to say the same thing until I got my 5D2. No comparison in image quality between the it and the 7D. However, that being said, the 5D2 cannot touch my 7 (for wildlife) in terms of overall brute speed and handling. It's a great camera and I enjoy being able to switch between the two as the need may be. It would be interesting if a new 7D2 came with a FF sensor... but it's not likely.

Might be time to get the 5D3, but then my wife and I would be fighting over it all the time! ;D

D


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## Richard8971 (May 24, 2012)

babarasghar said:


> 7D2 - Flagship APSC



I would agree there, but any upgrade would have to rival what the 7 is now, and it will be intresting to see what Canon comes up with, if and when they decide to repace the 7D1.

D


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## babarasghar (May 24, 2012)

cant canon do a 1.3x n 1.6x crop 
or 3x 5x n 10x crop features in stills (like it is there on 600D) for a FF body???
wont it make a cheap F body a better n attractive option???
i mean if a cheap rebel can do it on 1.6x sensor cant it be done on a 18/22 FF sensor ???
making it both a FF, an APSH n an APSC owner's "HONEY"


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## babarasghar (May 24, 2012)

and keep an eye on this also and what canon has to counter this one



> New/updated Nikon D600 specifications:
> 
> 24.7MP full frame sensor
> Weight: 760g (850g with battery and memory cards), the D800 weights 900g
> ...



to me 5d2 in a lil bit pimped body n price in sub $2000 would make it hell of a re-birth ...


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## aznable (May 24, 2012)

babarasghar said:


> cant canon do a 1.3x n 1.6x crop
> or 3x 5x n 10x crop features in stills (like it is there on 600D) for a FF body???
> wont it make a cheap F body a better n attractive option???
> i mean if a cheap rebel can do it on 1.6x sensor cant it be done on a 18/22 FF sensor ???
> making it both a FF, an APSH n an APSC owner's "HONEY"



like nikon? from FX to DX the resolution is greatly reduced ....from 36 to 16 in d800, from 12 to 5 in d700


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## babarasghar (May 24, 2012)

but still ... y we r not keeping an eye on what nikon is gona launch ...
a 24.7 MP FF sensor with FX n DX capability
and look at rumoured price ... even if it is not a realistic figuer considering the price of D3200 but the features r quite interesting for a sub $2000 FF

n even in APSC ... we r seeing a 3rd gen of bodies using same 18mp sensor
with digic 5 NR ... do u guys thing canon would spend more to make a sensor n then keep its size at 18mp?
thats very lame i say ... if i am spending on a new sensor n make it again an 18mp ... why i even made it ...
even DIGIC 5 will give the old 18mp a bit better high ISO performance ... some one who knows in-depth about DIGIC 5 can put us wise as how much this DIGIC 5 will boost the capability of same old 18mp sensor


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## Richard8971 (May 24, 2012)

babarasghar said:


> and keep an eye on this also and what canon has to counter this one
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As low as 1500 bucks huh? ??? Doesn't matter, they could give them away and I still wouldn't shoot with Nikon. (blech)


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## babarasghar (May 24, 2012)

offcourse thats what we all canonians want ...
our own dream machine


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## moreorless (May 24, 2012)

If those specs are correct I'm supprized there calling it the D600, looks like it'll either outspec or equal the D700 in most areas.

While I'd love for it to be true $1500 doesnt seem like a very realistic price to me.

The most obvious comeback from Canon to me would be a camera similar in spirit to the 5D mk2, that its a higher MP sensor minus many of the pro features of the 5D mk3.


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## nicku (May 24, 2012)

babarasghar said:


> and keep an eye on this also and what canon has to counter this one
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmm, i believe that Nikon will use an already existing (exactly the same D3X ) sensor due to the final product price tag. If the rumors are correct a $1500-1800 is a very low price for a FF camera with those specs. 

In my opinion investing in a new sensor for a quite low price camera is unlikely. More reasonable is to use an already researched and tested ( cheap to produce due to the already existing instruments) sensor.


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## Marsu42 (May 24, 2012)

moreorless said:


> The most obvious comeback from Canon to me would be a camera similar in spirit to the 5D mk2, that its a higher MP sensor minus many of the pro features of the 5D mk3.



I've written this before  but again I wish Nikon will kick Canon's a** to release competitive products in the mid price range. Given the resources Canon has, I don't think they'll withdraw from the race, so the only way is forward. 

But what are the "pro" features of the 5d3 that only "pros" will need? Good af? 6fps? sealed, durable body? It would be interesting if they cut these specs to that of the 5d2 or even further in some entry ff body.

However, given all the advantages aps-c has (cheaper sensor, longer reach, affordable ultrawides) and that consumers usually won't even max out the current 18mp sensor maybe I am wishing for a 5d2 successor, but Canon will really release a 70d @1400$ and a 7d2 @2000$+


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## moreorless (May 24, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> I've written this before  but again I wish Nikon will kick Canon's a** to release competitive products in the mid price range. Given the resources Canon has, I don't think they'll withdraw from the race, so the only way is forward.



Personally when it comes to FF I'm not really invested in Canon much(only a 100mm macro I bought relatively cheaply used) so if Nikon offer a better cheaper option I'll be switching if/when I upgrade.

I'd agree though it seems like its Canons turn to learn to cater to the prosumer market more effectively the same way Nikon learned to cater to the entry level and higher end markets a few years ago.



> But what are the "pro" features of the 5d3 that only "pros" will need? Good af? 6fps? sealed, durable body? It would be interesting if they cut these specs to that of the 5d2 or even further in some entry ff body.



I don't think you could get away with the 5D mk2's AF anymore personally and I wouldnt expect Canon to take that route given that this seems to be an area there universally upgrading this generation. There is alot of room between that and the 1DX/5D mk3 AF though, 20-30 points widely spaced would I'd guess me enough for many.
The rest of the 5D mk2 plus a high MP sensor seems like it could be a sucess to me though provided the price is right. 

To me the sucess of the 5D mk2 and the D800 seem to hint that with amatures resolution is still what sells best, areas like landscape are afterall largely amature or semi pro.

Rather than offering high specs/high MP and lower specs/lower MP together as Nikon seem to me doing with the D800/D600 offering high MP/lower specs seems like it could be an effective way to target this market. If you take that route Canon could also potentially target the the former 1Ds market aswell if they wanted to, a 1DX body with a higher MP sensor and say 6 FPS would be heavly differentiated from a 5D mk2ish high MP body.


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## briansquibb (May 24, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> But what are the "pro" features of the 5d3 that only "pros" will need? Good af? 6fps? sealed, durable body? It would be interesting if they cut these specs to that of the 5d2 or even further in some entry ff body.



I dont think the 5DIII has many pro features - it is just a very good all round camera that delivers very good IQ. It may be used for professional purposes but it just doesn't excel at anything.

I 'new cutdown 5DII' would bomb due to the relatively poor AF - perhaps if the AF was limited to the 7D level AF it would cut it as an updated 5DII.


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## Astro (May 24, 2012)

to be honest the D600 from nikon sounds more interesting then all of this...


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## briansquibb (May 24, 2012)

Astro said:


> to be honest the D600 from nikon sounds more interesting then all of this...



Nikon fanboys give over exagerated rumour, Canon fanboys are all doom and gloom and develop a mindset that wants to move to Nikon.

And that is before we have ANY information about what is coming. I can guarantee that whatever Canon deliver we will get the Nikon is best fanfare without any objective analysis or facts or hands on based on a Nikon biased website


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## Marsu42 (May 24, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I dont think the 5DIII has many pro features - it is just a very good all round camera that delivers very good IQ. It may be used for professional purposes but it just doesn't excel at anything. I 'new cutdown 5DII' would bomb due to the relatively poor AF - perhaps if the AF was limited to the 7D level AF it would cut it as an updated 5DII.



Exactly what I was thinking - there's not that much to cut from the 5d3 (let alone "pro" features) since tech has moved on since the release of the 5d2. It'll be interesting to see how Canon will fill the 5d2 gap and compete with Nikon's good aps-c bodies at the same time.


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## maxxevv (May 25, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Exactly what I was thinking - there's not that much to cut from the 5d3 (let alone "pro" features) since tech has moved on since the release of the 5d2. It'll be interesting to see how Canon will fill the 5d2 gap and compete with Nikon's good aps-c bodies at the same time.



They don't need to 'cut' features off from the 5DII, they just need to 'upsize' the newest Rebel ( with all its features, build quality and limitations ) and put in a FF sensor ... And you get a perfectly legitimate 'Entry-level Full-frame' camera at an entry-level price.


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## briansquibb (May 25, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly what I was thinking - there's not that much to cut from the 5d3 (let alone "pro" features) since tech has moved on since the release of the 5d2. It'll be interesting to see how Canon will fill the 5d2 gap and compete with Nikon's good aps-c bodies at the same time.
> ...



Why not keep the 5D2 as the entry level ff by putting making a 5D between the 5dII and 5dIII by upgrading the af to 7D standards?

Then we could have:

5DII classic at $1500
5DIIn - classic with updated AF at $2000
5DIII at $3000


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## lonebear (May 25, 2012)

My take of the recent 7D Mark II speculation.

Based on the previous experience, I noticed most of CR's rumors would be proven credible when the final product released. This assumption leads me back to the 7Dii rumor archive. Carefully sorting through the limited information there, we may find all those contraversial pieces actually can form a big picture:

Dec 28, 2011
Photokina 2012 announcement conforms with this rumor which almost can be taken as a fact (CR3?). However two different formats mentioned here: APS-C or APS-H (which actually indicates the new release is not a direct sequel of the current 7D, since APS-H will not take EF-S lenses. Is this the same suggested by the Feb 14 rumor?)
If the current thread about 70D & 7Dii is credible, then will it be possible that the two formats mentioned on Dec 28 were actually from two different bodies? As the next few rumors suggested, both 70D and 7Dii can be treated as the new "update" of current 7D to certain degree.

Feb 14, 2012
"Canon will not make an update for 7D", can be two different interpretations. It could indicate that 7D line is discontinued like 1D4, or it could also mean that too much changes are made to the update candidate, causing some basic compatibility issue (like the change to APS-H could introduce) and cannot be called an "update". 
If the update of 60D (i.e. 70D) will take the current 7D position as suggested by that rumor, I would expect the new 70D will be a little inferior to the current 7D. (This is further confirmed in May 9 rumor stating the 60D and 7D will meet in the middle in terms of features and build quality.) In this case, if Canon doesn't at the same time providing a superior "update" for 7D, the very popular and market successful top APS-C 7D will be ended up with an "Inferior" update only. Does it sounds too weird?
This also indicates the coming new 7 series release will not be called 7D mark ii, probably 7Ds or 7DX.

May 9, 2012
This rumor is mainly about the inferior update 70D. The details elaborated here further confirmed 70D is not the new release in the 7 serious.

May 14, 2012
Traces are not very clear here. It sounds to me, information from 70D and 7Ds/7DX are mixed together which buffled CR.

May 21, 2012. The current thread.
Rumors become clearer now. We have two different "updates" of 7D. 
What caught my attention is not the specs listed here, but the carefully total avoidance of sensor! Given the current MP and DR hypes, what Canon needs most at this moment is certain degree improvement in sensor technology. 
Given Canon's leading position in lens technology over Nikon, I would expect the main battle area for the two big giants in the next few years will be in the sensor area. However, if Canon places in directly a counterpart high MP body to compete with Nikon, and coundn't beat it (which is quite likely from what we can see now), Canon might risk some landsliding loss of market share. If I were Canon, I would try to use some indirect approach, without direct confrontation. One of best candidates to test Canon's new sensor technology is an APS-H body. If it succeeds, then it can be introduced in a FF body. If it fails, it's still a comparison between apple and orange. Besides 7 series is not flagship, any failure in it will not cause any big disaster. 
If let me speculate, the most possible megapixel in the possible APS-H 7Ds or 7DX could be around 21MP to 24MP. 21MP is around 36MP in FF in terms of pixel density. 21MP in APS-H has larger pixel size than current 7D, which should naturally provide better IQ given all other factors are kept the same. If any extra improvement can be provided, the new 7 series body is almost for sure will be a success, and that will buy enough time for Canon for its high MP body.

DISCLAIMER: my above take is actually heavily biased. 
I am fully captured by the 24-70L II, but my most used focal range is somewhere from 30 to 90mm. That needs an APS-H body to shift the range to my favorite area. Hence, the hope of continuing APS-H line.
   ;D


----------



## Marine03 (May 25, 2012)

LoneBear I think you make some very valid points by not focusing on just one rumor. APS-H at 10fps and better AF and 70D at current 7D level of performance.


----------



## moreorless (May 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Why not keep the 5D2 as the entry level ff by putting making a 5D between the 5dII and 5dIII by upgrading the af to 7D standards?
> 
> Then we could have:
> 
> ...



I'd guess theres only so far the savings on the 5D mk2 can go though and if these Nikon specs/prices do proove to be correct at $1500 it would not be competitive, surely a major issue with an entry level FF body since alot of users arent going to be tied down to a system.

Specs like...

5D mk3 sensor and FPS
1Ds mk3 AF
5D mk2 build quality
100% viewfinder
Single card slot.

...seems like it would be pretty comopetitive with this rumoured Nikon while differentiating it from the 5D mk3, offering F/8 focusing to a budget market who are less likely to be able to afford super teles seems to make sense tp me aswell.



maxxevv said:


> They don't need to 'cut' features off from the 5DII, they just need to 'upsize' the newest Rebel ( with all its features, build quality and limitations ) and put in a FF sensor ... And you get a perfectly legitimate 'Entry-level Full-frame' camera at an entry-level price.



I'm not sure I see this happening, we might label a camera an "entry level" FF but really the market is vastly different from a Rebel. Your still talking at least $1500 and for that amount of people are going to expect higher build quality, plus if your selling an unsealed body your limating the market for sealed L lenses in the future, one of the big reasons for offering a cheap FF body in the first place.


----------



## maxxevv (May 26, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Why not keep the 5D2 as the entry level ff by putting making a 5D between the 5dII and 5dIII by upgrading the af to 7D standards?
> 
> Then we could have:
> 
> ...



Its cheaper to produce a camera with Rebel-like quality and features compared to the 5DII.


----------



## maxxevv (May 26, 2012)

moreorless said:


> I'm not sure I see this happening, we might label a camera an "entry level" FF but really the market is vastly different from a Rebel. Your still talking at least $1500 and for that amount of people are going to expect higher build quality, plus if your selling an unsealed body your limating the market for sealed L lenses in the future, one of the big reasons for offering a cheap FF body in the first place.



We have to look at it from a business standpoint and not from a 'wish list' standpoint of view if we want to get close to what Canon will produce. And at this point, we don't know what is the pricepoint which Canon will peg such a camera at.


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## moreorless (May 26, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> moreorless said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure I see this happening, we might label a camera an "entry level" FF but really the market is vastly different from a Rebel. Your still talking at least $1500 and for that amount of people are going to expect higher build quality, plus if your selling an unsealed body your limating the market for sealed L lenses in the future, one of the big reasons for offering a cheap FF body in the first place.
> ...



I'd say thats what I was doing, a $1500 FF camera is simpley a very different market to a $600 ASPC camera and the expactations(and likely the competsion from Nikon) will be higher when it comes to build.

As I said I think a big negative of an unsealed plastic body is that it would limate sales of well build sealed L lenses to users. I'm guessing that if Nikon and Canon start selling cheap relatively well speced FF cameras at low profit margins generating future lenses sales will be a large part of the reason for it.


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## trid1977 (May 31, 2012)

Your amount of friends with a 7d1 just dropped to zero 



dlleno said:


> it has to do with administrating the warranty -- adding call center folks to field claims, writing documentation to support the call center agents, involving the legal dept, etc. etc..



While I thought the Canon 7d was a great camera and I was very close to buying one, I don't understand why I am being shunned because of my decision to not purchase something that did not meet my requirements.


----------



## Marsu42 (May 31, 2012)

trid1977 said:


> While I thought the Canon 7d was a great camera and I was very close to buying one, I don't understand why I am being shunned because of my decision to not purchase something that did not meet my requirements.



Well, with 3 posts you maybe haven't figured this out: about 1/3rd of the posts are there to protect people's peace of mind for having the equipment and esp. camera bodies they bought, just get used to it


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## neuroanatomist (May 31, 2012)

trid1977 said:


> While I thought the Canon 7d was a great camera and I was very close to buying one, I don't understand why I am being shunned because of my decision to not purchase something that did not meet my requirements.



There was a shunning? Damn, I missed the memo. 



trid1977 said:


> I'm interested in the 7D MKII.
> I didn't get the MKI because I had expected an Articulating screen. I'd also like multi-spot metering like my T90. the 7D also had that soft focus issue that never seemed to get resolved. And I'd like a bigger sensor than the APS-C. I'm not so interested in more pixels to sacrifice quality of image.



There may be another APS-H camera someday, but for now if you want a bigger sensor than APS-C, that's a 5-series or a 1-series. It's very unlikely the 7-series will get anything other than an APS-C sensor. Likewise, multi-spot metering is now the province of the 1-series bodies, and lesser bodies don't have it, not even the 5DIII although it got the 1-series AF system. Sounds like the 1D X is the answer to many of your needs...

Soft focus? I must say, I do find Google hits for '7D soft focus' - 327,000 of them, in fact - but then again, when I search 'Subaru Outback transmission problems' I see twice as many hits, and neither of our two Outbacks has had issues. On my 7D, focus is fast and accurate (after AFMA).


----------



## dlleno (May 31, 2012)

trid1977 said:


> Your amount of friends with a 7d1 just dropped to zero
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Im confused as to what a weather sealing warranty has to do with any of this, your personal camera choices, or why anyones 7D freind count matters 8) 

I didn't see any shunning either, btw


----------



## briansquibb (May 31, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> On my 7D, focus is fast and accurate (after AFMA).



+1 I bought my 7D from an owner who was getting soft pictures. He couldn't have understand how to use it or used cheap lens on it because for me I have had nothing but sharp images.

- keep the shutter speed high and use the factory defaults (except for using the AF expansion point)


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## Tcapp (May 31, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> trid1977 said:
> 
> 
> > While I thought the Canon 7d was a great camera and I was very close to buying one, I don't understand why I am being shunned because of my decision to not purchase something that did not meet my requirements.
> ...


 
They should release a new line with aps H. 7d is aps c, 6d could be aps h, and 5d as ff. 

BTW, when they first started the 5d line, how did they settle on 5 as the number? why not 2d? Not saying it was a bad idea, just wondering how that came to that decision?


----------



## dlleno (May 31, 2012)

lonebear said:


> <lots of good research>
> 
> Given Canon's leading position in lens technology over Nikon, I would expect the main battle area for the two big giants in the next few years will be in the sensor area. However, if Canon places in directly a counterpart high MP body to compete with Nikon, and coundn't beat it (which is quite likely from what we can see now), Canon might risk some landsliding loss of market share. If I were Canon, I would try to use some indirect approach, without direct confrontation. One of best candidates to test Canon's new sensor technology is an APS-H body. If it succeeds, then it can be introduced in a FF body. If it fails, it's still a comparison between apple and orange. Besides 7 series is not flagship, any failure in it will not cause any big disaster.
> If let me speculate, the most possible megapixel in the possible APS-H 7Ds or 7DX could be around 21MP to 24MP. 21MP is around 36MP in FF in terms of pixel density. 21MP in APS-H has larger pixel size than current 7D, which should naturally provide better IQ given all other factors are kept the same. If any extra improvement can be provided, the new 7 series body is almost for sure will be a success, and that will buy enough time for Canon for its high MP body.
> ...



shout out to *lonebear * for your most useful collection of thoughts, analysis of pixel density, and speculations worth reading -- and even for revealing your own bias. I don't care what they call it, but I'm with you and wish for something with an APS-H sensor!


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## wickidwombat (Jun 1, 2012)

dlleno said:


> lonebear said:
> 
> 
> > <lots of good research>
> ...



amen my brothers! love the ASP-H


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > On my 7D, focus is fast and accurate (after AFMA).
> ...



I bought my 7D new. I had "soft" focus issues from the beginning. Not so much you could tell from the LCD on the camera screen, but enough to ruin photos once viewed from your PC. They were NOT sharp. I have shot with several camera bodies (I own the XT, XTi, T1i, 40D, 50D, 5D2...) and have several lenses so this is NOT my first rodeo, so please excuse my post if you disagree that some 7D's have a "soft focus" issue.

I have several excellent quality lenses from Canon (some L) and my focus issue was with all of them and ONLY on my 7D. After 4 months of frustrating photos I sent my camera back to Canon. Their conclusion? My AF sensor was misaligned and needed adjustment. The result??? Perfect focus and super sharp images. (All within a week of sending it in.) I posed a scan of my repair order to "prove" my claim.

The "soft focus" problem is REAL for some models of the 7D. Does it affect ALL of them? No. But, Canon took care of the problem and fixed it under warranty. Am I unhappy with my 7D? NO!!!

It is a great camera and like all sophisticated electronics, it is subject to occasional problems and fixes from time to time. 

I think it is unfair of you to claim that "focus issues" are solely user error and not perhaps a real problem. (Google this for yourself! It IS real!!!) Or perhaps I didn't "understand" my 7D before Canon looked at it, who knows? Just my 2 cents...

D


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## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

I thought it would be fair to post a "before" and "after" photo of the "focus" fix. Photo '7d test 1' was before and '7d test 2' was after. The images speak for themselves. Same lens, same camera, same crop size (within reason). 

But then again, maybe I didn't understand how to use my camera before Canon "fixed" it. (sigh :)

D


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I have never claimed that all "focus issues" are solely user error - so I am unsure why you are being so agressively defensive.

However what I am sure of is that when people with a problem shout long and loud (with a genuine problem) then others without a hardware problem get doubts in their head and interpret poor user performance as their camera having the problem. This suited me fine as I got a near mint 7D for £700 because the owner convinced himself that his 7D had the "focus issue" and the 7D was out of warantee.

This forum is littered with such mass hysteria for all sorts of street myths that turn into 'facts' over a period of time.


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## wickidwombat (Jun 1, 2012)

can't we get back to propogating the rumour that the 7DII will be APS-H?


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> can't we get back to propogating the rumour that the 7DII will be APS-H?



Yeh baby


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## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I have never claimed that all "focus issues" are solely user error - so I am unsure why you are being so agressively defensive.
> 
> However what I am sure of is that _when people with a problem shout long and loud (with a genuine problem) then others without a hardware problem get doubts in their head and interpret poor user performance as their camera having the problem._



Exactly my point. There IS a problem with the 7D. Canon needs to fix it. Kinda like the Edsel, remember?

And for the record, I am not being "defensive". I am pointing out a real problem with a real camera and proving it. Not all problems are "user" error as you claimed, just my opinion. Take it as that.

D


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## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> This forum is littered with such mass hysteria for all sorts of street myths that turn into 'facts' over a period of time.



I provided proof... where is yours? Just wondering.

D


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I have never claimed that all "focus issues" are solely user error - so I am unsure why you are being so agressively defensive.
> ...



Please give me the reference where I have stated that all problems are user error


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## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> He _couldn't have understand how to use it  _ or used cheap lens on it because for me I have had nothing but sharp images.
> 
> - keep the shutter speed high and use the factory defaults (except for using the AF expansion point)



Well, maybe not ALL of the reported focus problems you are blaiming on "user error", (which I admitted in a previous post) but I cannot help not notice that your answer to your "soft focus" problem on your own 7D, is to 'keep the shutter speed high'?? ??? And of course, I cannot help but notice that you blamed his "soft focus issue" on his lack of "understanding" of his 7D. Hmmm....

That is not a legitimate answer. That is in fact, a bandage to a problem. I bet if you sent your 7D to Canon they would find a problem. Forgive me but, I cannot always "keep my shutter speed high" to insure sharp images. Sometimes, I have to shoot "old school" and slow things down a bit. 8) And, when I do, I expect, super sharp images. Which of course, is what I get now that my 7D has been fixed by Canon.  Don't believe me? Check out the photos I posted in a previous post to this thread. 

D


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > He _couldn't have understand how to use it  _ or used cheap lens on it because for me I have had nothing but sharp images.
> ...



In my experience, and on this forum too, there is a minority who shoot slow, thinking that IS keeps the image sharp - and then wonder why their images are soft as they dont understand about motion blur.

Yes I do think the previous owner of my 7D did not understand - I have had nothing but sharp pictures from the camera. I have never had a soft focus issue with my 7D which you are now claiming I have - the previous owner did - but that WAS a user error.

So far you have accused me of saying:

- all focus problems can be blaimed on "user error"
- my 7D has a focus error which I am applying bandage to the problem

So two libellous accusations so far - any more?


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## Marsu42 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> In my experience, and on this forum too, there is a minority who shoot slow, thinking that IS keeps the image sharp - and then wonder why their images are soft as they dont understand about motion blur.



And that's the way marketing wants it: You pay money for features and get immediate tack-sharp pictures.

Imho, basically man people don't have in mind that it's just "probabilities" that help to have a good keeper rate like IS, good af, high shutter speed but think that if you've got any single one of these you're bound to have 100% sharp keepers. 

Btw, with a bit of training I don't think it's that hard to tell motion blur from out of focus in most cases.


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## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



LOL!!! No, I did not blame you that you said that ALL 7D focus issues are "user" error. Read my previous posts and you will see that for yourself!

And yes, I believe that _if_ you have to shoot "fast shutter speeds" to achieve good photos with your 7D then YES, your camera has a problem. Which of course YOU said you had to DO to get sharp photos. Am I missing something? I simply quoted what you said... did I misunderstand? I am sorry otherwise... Or perhaps something else, or someone is to blame. :-X 



D


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## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



My images are fantastic once Canon fixed my AF sensor. See proof above. Any questions? Really? 

How about you show us some photos from your 7D before your purchase and then after? (because of your increased "understanding" of the 7D, your photos should be outstanding compared to his!) No? So how do we know for sure? Just wondering....

D


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Richard8971 said:
> ...



Yep there you go - missed the point again about shooting fast. Shooting fast means shooting fast enough to avoid motion blur and handshake. 

For example with a 7D the rule of thumb for a lens with no IS is 1/ff equivalent focal length. ie for a 50mm lens this would be faster than 1/80th. However for some moving objects 1/80th is not fast enough to avoid motion blur eg dancers so you would have to increase the speed to cater for that - for dancers that might well be 1/250

The previous owner would take pictures like this at 1/50th because he relied on IS of his 18-55 kit lens to stop handshake but forgot the motion blur. The IS in this example would not make the slightest difference because the motion blur would still happen. If you dont 'shoot fast' then you will get blurred images.

Please stop insisting that my 7D has a focus problem - it doesn't


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## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



I shoot everything hald-held, in low light and full sun, whatever. It doesn't matter to me what you say without *proof* with photos, like I provided. Nice chatting with you. Glad you like your 7.

D


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## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

OK, 7D, _no flash_, ISO 800, 1/664 sec, f8 with Canon EF-s 60mm macro. HAND-HELD, NO IS! Fast? Not hardly for the ISO setting (AND f8!!) and NO flash and NO IS and hand held! 

This is after the Canon repair of course. 

D


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

I dont have a 'before' picture because there has never been anything wrong with it.

Here is an example from my last shoot with the 7D. 

Camera Model: Canon EOS 7D
Image Date: 2012-05-19 10:49:13 +0100
Focal Length: 200.0mm
Aperture: f/9.0
Exposure Time: 0.0013 s (1/800)
ISO equiv: 250

IS on, panning mode - so shooting fast


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## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I dont have a 'before' picture because there has never been anything wrong with it.
> 
> Here is an example from my last shoot with the 7D.
> 
> ...



I just posted one with IS off. Do you have one?

D


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> OK, 7D, _no flash_, ISO 800, 1/664 sec, f8 with Canon EF-s 60mm macro. HAND-HELD, NO IS! Fast? Not hardly for the ISO setting (AND f8!!) and NO flash and NO IS and hand held!
> 
> This is after the Canon repair of course.
> 
> D



Read my definition of shooting fast. IS would have no effect after 1/100 so that is hardly startling


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> I just posted one with IS off. Do you have one?



I only use the 7D for sports so the lens are long so IS is needed - as in the example.

So you have seen my sharp picture are you now convinced my 7D is OK?


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > I just posted one with IS off. Do you have one?
> ...



So IS _is needed_ for sharp photos? (Now I am really confused) I used my 7 in low light were NO IS is possible (due to lens limitations, I.E. 60mm macro or 100mm macro) so no, I am not convinced, but whatever. My main point was to show the readers here that the focus issue of the 7D is REAL and that they SHOULD send their camera back to Canon if they have a problem and it is not up to you to tell them different. I only offer a second opinion on the matter, let the reader choose for themself what to do.

That's all.

D


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## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Btw, with a bit of training I don't think it's that hard to tell motion blur from out of focus in most cases.



Whatever... tell that to the group I hang around with.

D


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Richard8971 said:
> ...



If you had understood my definition of shooting fast you would have seen that shooting with a 200mm lens on a 7D would need a shutter speed of at least 1/320 for no IS. As I was panning and wanted motion blur for the bg then I turned the IS to panning mode so IS allowed motion in the horizontal plane whilst reducing vertical motion. So I was shooting handheld at 1/250 with a 200m lens - no big deal as this is what many sports photographers do

Use of IS does not indicate an error with the 7D. The picture demonstrates that my 7D is very sharp - I am disappointed that you dont accept that.


----------



## Richard8971 (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Use of IS does not indicate an error with the 7D. The picture demonstrates that my 7D is very sharp - I am disappointed that you dont accept that.



But I posted a sharp photo (hand-held) _without the use of IS._ (Attached with a Canon BG-E7 grip mind you...) I am likewise dissapointed that you cannot provide one. Oh well. Goodnight.

D


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Use of IS does not indicate an error with the 7D. The picture demonstrates that my 7D is very sharp - I am disappointed that you dont accept that.
> ...



So the use of IS for slow pictures masks the 7D AF problem? That is an interesting - is this Canon's official line - use and IS lens anf the problem goes away?


----------



## Tcapp (Jun 1, 2012)

Richard8971 said:


> OK, 7D, _no flash_, ISO 800, 1/664 sec, f8 with Canon EF-s 60mm macro. HAND-HELD, NO IS! Fast? Not hardly for the ISO setting (AND f8!!) and NO flash and NO IS and hand held!
> 
> This is after the Canon repair of course.
> 
> D



Just curious, did you push the fill light on that file? It looks a little bright and noisy in the BG...


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## jordanbstead (Jun 1, 2012)

When are people going to realize that IS doesn't matter above 1/125 if shooting with a lens 135mm or longer? If you're shooting at 1/800th, how would you even manage to blur a photo with camera shake? It's practically physically impossible.


----------



## Tcapp (Jun 1, 2012)

jordanbstead said:


> When are people going to realize that IS doesn't matter above 1/125 if shooting with a lens 135mm or longer? If you're shooting at 1/800th, how would you even manage to blur a photo with camera shake? It's practically physically impossible.



If you are shooting at 200mm at 1/125 of a second? Yea, I think IS might be a huge help there! Not sure what you are getting at? If you are shooting at 1/8000 of a second, then I don't think IS would make a lick of difference, but under 1/1000 of a second? Depending on the focal length, and weight of the lens, IS can make a huge difference. 

The general rule of thumb is your shutter speed should be at LEAST 1/focal length. So if you shoot a 200mm lens, your shutter should be at LEAST 1/200. If you really want to be safe, you should at least double that speed. That is why IS is so important.


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

Tcapp said:


> The general rule of thumb is your shutter speed should be at LEAST 1/focal length. So if you shoot a 200mm lens, your shutter should be at LEAST 1/200. If you really want to be safe, you should at least double that speed. That is why IS is so important.



Dont forget the crop, so on a crop a 200 it should be a minimum of 1/320.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 1, 2012)

jordanbstead said:


> When are people going to realize that IS doesn't matter above 1/125 if shooting with a lens 135mm or longer?



When will people realize that IS is not only about reducing shutter speed? The main benefit for me is that it stabilizes the viewfinder, helping composition and enabling handheld hdr shots w/o too much difference between shots. And the most important thing at longer focal ranges: it helps tremendously to position the af point where I want it to be, so I'm getting many more keepers.


----------



## Tcapp (Jun 1, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Tcapp said:
> 
> 
> > The general rule of thumb is your shutter speed should be at LEAST 1/focal length. So if you shoot a 200mm lens, your shutter should be at LEAST 1/200. If you really want to be safe, you should at least double that speed. That is why IS is so important.
> ...



Perhaps, but I'm not entirely convinced a crop body would matter. The crop is just that: a crop. if you take a photo in photoshop and crop down to the center 60% of the pixels, it doesn't make the photo blurry. So I don't see why cropping in the camera with a smaller sensor would require a faster shutter speed. The crop sensor affects the apparent field of view, not the actual focal length, or the magnification. It's just putting more pixels in a smaller space. Now, if a higher pixel density is what requires a faster shutter speed, that would make sense. Since a smaller movement will be picked up by the smaller pixels. But then that would apply to high MP FF too, not just crop. 

So I feel it might not be totally correct to just assume a crop body needs a higher shutter speed. Right? *Its not the size that matters, its how you use it! *


----------



## Marsu42 (Jun 1, 2012)

Tcapp said:


> So I feel it might not be totally correct to just assume a crop body needs a higher shutter speed. Right?



No, imho not correct. The "rule of thumb" 1/(shutter speed x crop factor)" is from the good ol' analog days, but for digital and sharpness at pixel level (!) it is important how high the pixel density is, because tighter packed pixels will pick up even the tiniest motion.

So your assumption "a crop camera is like cropping from full frame" would be only correct if the 21/22mp ff sensor had the same pixel density as the 18mp sensor. You are correct if you are only looking at the full picture.


----------



## Tcapp (Jun 1, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Tcapp said:
> 
> 
> > So I feel it might not be totally correct to just assume a crop body needs a higher shutter speed. Right?
> ...


Yeah! Thats what I was getting at. ;D


----------



## DB (Jun 1, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> can't we get back to propogating the rumour that the 7DII will be APS-H?



I really like the idea of positioning the 7D as somewhere between APS-C and FF. With the likely discontinuation of the 1D mark IV (once the 1DX actually ships), Canon could pinch some of the other 1DIV features such as the 45-point AF, so as to not cannibalize the 5D3/1DX spec.

If a 7D2 had the larger APS-H sensor, but retained the 18MP resolution, you would still have some extra reach as desired by some professionals, with the added benefit of much improved pixel pitch from 4.3 µm square to about 5.1 µm, coupled with a pair of Digic-5 processors, would likely see at least +1 stop gain in ISO performance (say usable reliably at 3200) or possibly +1.5 to +2 stops resulting in solid 7D2 images @ up to 6400 ISO. Now that would really help sports photographers (wildlife too). A camera like that would probably be able to shoot at 10fps too (using the new dual-Digic 5's).

Then a new 70D could be marketed as the top of the APS-C sensor DSLR's (makes sense as it would be a xxD model, retaining xD as 'Pro' range).

A new 7D2 would be a logical step-up from APS-C users as well as a 2nd complimentary body for Pro's & Enthusiasts' who require a bit of extra reach without breaking the bank on 400mm 500mm or 800mm L lenses. It would also go some way to redress the only real criticism of the current 7D, namely; not great low-light performance.


----------



## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

DB said:


> If a 7D2 had the larger APS-H sensor, but retained the 18MP resolution, you would still have some extra reach as desired by some professionals, with the added benefit of much improved pixel pitch from 4.7 µm square to about 5.1 µm, coupled with a pair of Digic-5 processors, would likely see at least +1 stop gain in ISO performance (say usable reliably at 3200) or possibly +1.5 to +2 stops resulting in solid 7D2 images @ up to 6400 ISO.



This would be easily achievable as the 1D4 already is rock solid at iso6400 and does 10fps with twin digic 4s. The extra punch of the Digic 5 would help with the larger image size


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## DB (Jun 1, 2012)

With all of the advances in gap-less sensor technology, I don't know how cost effective it would be for Canon to produce an 18MP APS-H sensor. If it is readily achievable, then it would be a very obvious *'evolutionary'* change for the 7D. This suggested combination of 20% larger pixel size + dual Digic-5 chips could create a speed demon with better IQ, especially when one considers that dual memory card slots is now deemed _de rigeur_ for all Canon xD models. Imagine a 7D with better IQ, improved ISO perf and dare we say 10 to 12 frames per second. Now that would be an award-winner. I'd rather buy a 7D2 with those specs than a budget FF like the old 5D2.


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

DB said:


> With all of the advances in gap-less sensor technology, I don't know how cost effective it would be for Canon to produce an 18MP APS-H sensor. If it is readily achievable, then it would be a very obvious *'evolutionary'* change for the 7D. This suggested combination of 20% larger pixel size + dual Digic-5 chips could create a speed demon with better IQ, especially when one considers that dual memory card slots is now deemed _de rigeur_ for all Canon xD models. Imagine a 7D with better IQ, improved ISO perf and dare we say 10 to 12 frames per second. Now that would be an award-winner. I'd rather buy a 7D2 with those specs than a budget FF like the old 5D2.



Absolutely

I think the twin card in the 5DIII is from the 1D4 anyway. 

I would also like the same facility as we have on the 1D4 to be able to set the Av and the minimum shutter speed and Auto Iso + ec - that makes for very easy sports shooting


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## KeithR (Jun 1, 2012)

DB said:


> It would also go some way to redress the only real criticism of the current 7D, namely; not great low-light performance.


Are you aware of a better-performing cropper in low light?

There isn't one - certainly not the D7000/Pentax K-5.

Bigger pixels _do not make for better low light performance_ - this is uninformed internet hogwash for which there isn't a single Real World example that I'm aware of (although there are innumerable examples that _disprove_ the notion) - and _my_ 7D will happily produce fantastic low light/high ISO images all day long.

If you want better low light performance, a bigger sensor _ might_ give you it (despite the fact that the 7D easily kicks the arse of most of Canon and Nikon's older FF cameras, so _that's_ no cut-and-dried), but an APS-H sensor with 18 mps won't make any significant difference whatsoever to noise performance.

Indeed, the 7D is _massively_ better than the APS-H 1D MkIIn that I used for a while a few years back - that only had 8 mps, and comparatively _huge_ pixels.

Converting and processing your files effectively _will_ improve low light results though. 

Read this and this from Roger Clark (someone who has forgotten more than most people here will ever know about matters of sensor technology and performance) about the capabilities of the 7D's pixels compared to those of the 1D Mk IV.

He knows what he's talking about, and he tells us quite unequivocally (owning and having studied and tested the pants off each camera) that _in fact_ the 7D's sensor - and therefore its pixels - are _more_ "noise efficient" than those of the 1D Mk IV.

Bigger is better? Not where pixels are concerned.


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

KeithR said:


> If you want better low light performance, a bigger sensor _ might_ give you it (despite the fact that the 7D easily kicks the arse of most of Canon and Nikon's older FF cameras, so _that's_ no cut-and-dried), but an APS-H sensor with 18 mps won't make any significant difference whatsoever to noise performance.



I am not coninced that the 7D is better than the 5D classic at 800 ISO, certainly not better than the 2007 1DS3 or the 2008 5D2 but there again the 7D sensor isn't much newer.


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## Eimajm (Jun 1, 2012)

KeithR said:


> DB said:
> 
> 
> > It would also go some way to redress the only real criticism of the current 7D, namely; not great low-light performance.
> ...



This appears contrary to the opinion of Canon in their white paper on full frame sensors. 

"Regardless of format, full-frame sensors are all about image quality. The most
obvious advantage of full-frame sensors is the ability to combine high resolution
with large pixel sizes. Compare two sensors with the same number of pixels, one a
full-frame unit and one smaller. The pixels of the full-frame sensor are larger. Each
larger pixel has a greater surface area available for gathering light. More light
collected means less amplification needs to be applied to the output signal of each
pixel for the purposes of readout and image processing. Less is better here
because magnifying low-level signals inevitably entails picking up and increasing
noise that will then have to be removed as thoroughly as possible in a later step...."

"...In the extreme case of low-light photography and ISO ratings of 800 and above,
high signal-to-noise ratios give full-frame sensors a great advantage. In bright light
with low ISO settings, the abundant charge storage of Canon’s large CMOS pixels
avoids oversaturation."


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## RLPhoto (Jun 1, 2012)

I still believe canon will pull something out of its sleeve. they need an ACE IN THE HOLE, and i believe the 7D II may be that ace if it has the following specs.

APS-H - 14-18MP
10 FPS
61 point AF
ISO 50-25600

Thats it, and canon would simply drop the High performance 7D APS-C down to the 70D range and state this not to cause confusion among the X0D Range Change. If you want your EF-s lenses still, get a 70D. Nuff said.


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## moreorless (Jun 1, 2012)

Is ASPH actually "ideal" for most 1D users though? I'd say the main reason for that sensor size is that it was needed to achieve the desired IQ performance. If an ASPC sensor 3 years down the road can achieve something similar then I'd guess alot of 1D users(espeically the bottom end of the market as ther top end have the 1DX) would welcome the extra range that a smaller sensor gives similar lenses.


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## dlleno (Jun 1, 2012)

lots of engaging reading here guys. much appreciated. baring some conspiracy on Canon's part to deliberately code the digic processor to do bad things in low end cameras, some conclusions I draw from recent posts are:

1. folks read articles and generalize things about pixel pitch that are true, but can't necessarily be used by themselves to predict overall IQ performance of two different cameras. I could be missing something here, but what I'm seeing presented here recently is evidence that the 7D should produce better pictures than the 1D4.

2. Canon must be either oversimplifying or mis-stating things, or the quote about larger pixels was taken out of context 

3. There must be factors beyond pixel pitch that contribute to overall IQ. i.e. the end-to-end system from to LPF to sensor to Digic processing to jpg conversion, etc. . SNR of the sensor itself must certainly not be the only factor, although it appears to be the most engaging and the one assumed to dominate IQ

4. the preocupation with SNR vs pixel pitch and size causes one to loose sight of technology cycles, manufacturing techniques, and the influence of those other factors mentioned in (3) above on overall IQ considering the entire IQ "value chain". 

no, I'm not a physicist or a sensor technology expert. I'm just not following the line of reasoning as it applies to real world cameras in different technology cycles.


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## briansquibb (Jun 1, 2012)

moreorless said:


> Is ASPH actually "ideal" for most 1D users though? I'd say the main reason for that sensor size is that it was needed to achieve the desired IQ performance. If an ASPC sensor 3 years down the road can achieve something similar then I'd guess alot of 1D users(espeically the bottom end of the market as ther top end have the 1DX) would welcome the extra range that a smaller sensor gives similar lenses.



1D4 is already the standard sports/wildlife camera so we are already kitted out for APS-H.


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## hyles (Jun 1, 2012)

Tcapp said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Tcapp said:
> ...


Small sensor are more dense, this is one of the reason why you need shorter time comparing with FF. Another reason is that since you are vieving/printing images in the same way, the images of crop sensora are mignified more this mignifies blurr as well.
Diego


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## lonebear (Jun 1, 2012)

Before 7D2, I think the sensor in the coming 1DX worths all the attention. If it's BSI, then the current 7D2 speculation could escalated to a new height: a 21-24 MP APS-H BSI sensor? If Canon could do that, I would call it's a tie on sensor technology between the two giants.

As for Roger Clark's chart, I believe it is not appropriate to put sensors of different generations in the same chart. It is pointless. Sencel size matters, but will be decisive only when other technology factors are kept the same.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 1, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> I still believe canon will pull something out of its sleeve. they need an ACE IN THE HOLE, and i believe the 7D II may be that ace if it has the following specs. APS-H - 14-18MP



Hope dies last!


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## x-vision (Jun 1, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I still believe canon will pull something out of its sleeve. they need an ACE IN THE HOLE, and i believe the 7D II may be that ace if it has the following specs. APS-H - 14-18MP
> ...



Let us daydream for while  . 

The 7DII will be out in the next 6-9 months ... with an 1.6x sensor 
So, now is the time to daydream.


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## dlleno (Jun 1, 2012)

x-vision said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > RLPhoto said:
> ...



nice  In order to label this camera a "7D2" it would have to (it seems to me) be a 1.6x, and continue the current stratification of the 1.6x line into three distinct product lines. But as long as we're daydreaming, consider the "indirect competition" advantage of APS-H suggested by *Lonebear*, perhaps called a 7DX or even some new single digit number. what if Canon pulls an APS-H fast one on us (in spite of this site's owner who postulates that APS-H is dead), and introduces a new 22mp APS-H, 12fps ,dual digic 5, weather sealed, spot metering, AF-updated worthy successor to the venerable 1D4. Whether they leverage the 7D body or the 1D body doens't matter to me either


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## Tcapp (Jun 1, 2012)

x-vision said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > RLPhoto said:
> ...



In my dream it was medium format...


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## x-vision (Jun 2, 2012)

dlleno said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > Let us daydream for while  .
> ...



Sure thing . 

Seriously, though, people on this thread want a 1DIV ... for a third of the price of the 1DIV. 
That's classic!

Also seriously, I have no idea what Canon will do with the 7DII. 

The word on the street is that the 5DII will be discontinued by the end of the year. 
If Canon is planning to keep the 5DIII price high after the 5DII is discontinued, then it must be planning an advanced camera to fill-in the gap between the Rebels/60D and the super-expensive 5DIII. 

But by the end of the year, Nikon will have the D600 - an entry level FF camera for $2K.
This leaves Canon little room in terms of specs & price for the advanced camera that will sit below the 5DIII in the lineup. 

If Canon is planning to charge around $2K for this camera, then it's not impossible that this will be the 7DII ... with a FF sensor. 
Otherwise, the 7D will just be discontinued and the 70D, priced at $1500 max, will take its place.
In that case the 5DIII price will also have to be reduced to be more competitive with the D600/D800 combo. 

Finally, it's not impossible that Canon will pull a "5DIII" and release a 7DII ... with a crop sensor and priced at around $2K. 
I know for sure what I'll be doing in this case 8).


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## Richard8971 (Jun 2, 2012)

Tcapp said:


> Richard8971 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, 7D, _no flash_, ISO 800, 1/664 sec, f8 with Canon EF-s 60mm macro. HAND-HELD, NO IS! Fast? Not hardly for the ISO setting (AND f8!!) and NO flash and NO IS and hand held!
> ...



I shot in RAW and did minimal processing using Canon DPP to convert to JPEG. No noise reduction, no brightness adjustment. That photo of the mama hummingbird was shot at the Arizona Sonoran Desert Museum where flash photography is seriously frowned upon (you can be asked to leave if you use flash) in the hummingbird aviary when young hummers are present. The hummers like to hide in the shade and you have to use very high ISO and low f-numbers to get the perfect shot.

I am sorry for changing the tune of this thread discussing my focus issue. Glad to see it went back to the discussion of a "new" 7D2.

I would figure that any new high MP ASP-C (24-36MP) camera from Canon would be the 7D2. High MP, fast shooting, (8-10 FPS) but being ASP-C it would put it under any FF camera and would target budget sports shooters, like the 7D classic did. Around $1600-$1800. Logical road map I think...

D


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## Marine03 (Jun 2, 2012)

Its way to hard to guess specs any more... I'm just praying for either a 70D or 7D2 at around 1500 that can do 7FPS, better image quality through 3600 ISO and somewhere between 19-40 AF points. Metal body would be nice also.


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## Albi86 (Jun 3, 2012)

It would be quite interesting to know why actually Canon has put the APS-H apart. It's a very nice compromise between APS-C and FF. _Too_ nice, maybe?

To be honest, I doubt the new 7D2 would be anything different from an APS-C. We still have to figure out if the sensor is going to be a new one or the old one.


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## surfing_geek (Jun 8, 2012)

am i allowed to start dreaming about this again now the 650D has been announced? Might give some hints as to what to expect if the 7D2 were to come about.


The new 18MP hybrid APS-C sensor, the new video perks, touchscreen etc (who knows about whether it would be vari-angle though)


All this on top of the standard increases, maybe an extra fps or 2, better iso performance, Digic 5(+) or 2! Keep it all packaged in a roughly similar body to the 7D (Mag alloy etc).


Here's hoping Photokina brings something nice for us all


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## Marine03 (Jun 8, 2012)

surfing_geek said:


> The new 18MP hybrid APS-C sensor, the new video perks, touchscreen etc (who knows about whether it would be vari-angle though)
> 
> 
> All this on top of the standard increases, maybe an extra fps or 2, better iso performance, Digic 5(+) or 2! Keep it all packaged in a roughly similar body to the 7D (Mag alloy etc).
> ...



My hopes for the 70D and 7D2 are the new 22mp sensor we've heard rumors of. 70D getting Digic 5+ and 7D2 getting 2x 5+ so that would leave 70D at 7 or 8 FPS and 7D2 at 10FPS 

I'd be fine with 18mp too I just want useable RAW ISO 3200


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## Marsu42 (Jun 8, 2012)

Marine03 said:


> I'd be fine with 18mp too I just want useable RAW ISO 3200



I'm sure Canon will include the new multi-exposure jpeg noise reduction feature from the 650d in upcoming bodies, if that's what you want :-o ... they might even throw in 5d3's hdr mode to market away their problems in the dr & noise department, just be sure that the world around you doesn't move while shooting.


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## Albi86 (Jun 8, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Marine03 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be fine with 18mp too I just want useable RAW ISO 3200
> ...



This would work just with JPG and not with RAW, and sure as hell it's going to cost a lot in terms of sharpness. It will be good for JPG shooters who doesn't post-process, for the rest of us it will be as useless as picture styles and such things.

I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a _fully usable_ ISO 1600 and I'm happy.


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## Marine03 (Jun 8, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.
> 
> BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a _fully usable_ ISO 1600 and I'm happy.



I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200. I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.


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## traveller (Jun 8, 2012)

Marine03 said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.
> ...



Don't get frustrated, image quality is a subjective thing. If you're happy with the results that a camera gives at the ISO ratings you use, then it's the camera for you. Never listen to anyone else's opinion on image quality -unless of course, they are a paying customer!


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## dlleno (Jun 8, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.



thats true, and new sensors first appear in xxxD frequently, sometimes in xxD, and of course the 18MP sensor appeared in the 7D first before propgating out to the other crops. But in all cases the "new" sensor propogated out to the other crops. So in that sense I agree with you here, that if this truly is a new technology cycle, and higher ISO performing sensor, it will certainly appear in the 70D and even the 7D2 if it stays a 1.6. 

But -- I'm just not yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new. Absent are statements such as "new, low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor. To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance. I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance. I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic. 

what am I missing here (besides DxO telling us it sucks)?



> BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a _fully usable_ ISO 1600 and I'm happy.



+1 on fully usable 1600. From what I've seen, 7D is a measureable improvement over the 40D, for example, but it doesn't make you do the hokey pokey , imho:-D. Digic 5 may make additional incremental (if marginal) improvments -- but what we really need is a game changer at 1600 and for that I think we will need a new sensor technology cycle or APS-H, not a re-worked version of the old 18.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jun 8, 2012)

Marine03 said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.
> ...



It's really a matter of perspective - if you own and use and are used the the IQ of the 5d2, then yeah your bar is set by that quality and its hard to argue around that. But, if all you have is a 7D, then your forced to work with what you have, and do the best job you can do with it. I got my 7D in aug 2010, and have been mostly adding glass to the bag since then (10-22, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8). This year with the mkiii released I have definitely found myself pondering the move to FF - but - I ended up opting to go for lighting instead (2 ab800's, softbox, beauty dish, grids, and a vagabond mini). Basically, I felt that the better bang for the buck was lighting. (I was about $200 shy of the mkiii before ordering the lights) I do not at all regret that decision...

With all that said, I shoot in lots of different conditions as an event, portrait and wedding tog, I use every ISO available from 100-6400. Do I like shooting at 3200 and up? No, I cringe when the lighting is that aweful. But in terms of noise and IQ, I do find lots of keepers at those higher ISO's. It really boils down to who your clients are and what your prices are. Most in the general public won't be pixel peeping. Most clients for weddings won't want anything larger than a 11x14 print, with the exception of the formal shots and most of those would be done outdoors where your ISO should be in the 100-800 range...

Sometimes, it's not the gear your using, its the photographer. Knowing your equipment and its limitations and how to wrk with those limitations....

Here's 2 done using my 7D - the wedding image was all natural light, using 70-200 lens. the portrait shot was done using 24-70 lens, and both AB800's...


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## Albi86 (Jun 8, 2012)

dlleno said:


> But -- I'm just not yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new. Absent are statements such as "new, low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor. To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance. I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance. I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic.
> 
> what am I missing here (besides DxO telling us it sucks)?



I sincerely hope you're wrong 
As far as I've read, yes, sensors are different. The old one counts 18.7 total MP, while the new one 18.5. I take it for a hint that they're produced differently, although I cannot tell if differently means better too. Maybe Canon is reserving the flashiest marketing strikes for higher-end cameras.
But we're going to discover it quite soon anyway.



Marine03 said:


> I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.
> 
> I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200. I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.



People who say that the 7D has a bad IQ and can't produce sharp pictures should seriously consider another hobby. Probably photography is not their thing.

That said, it depends a lot on what you do in post-processing. If you start pulling out details from the shadows, sharpening, tweaking things around... then yes, the old generation of crop sensors shows its limits. I never get fully tweakable images above ISO 400. After that it's all a matter of compromise. Images @ISO 800 are ok if they're good to begin with, otherwise not so cool. They can still look fine, even @ ISO 1600 and 3200, but only if you down-size them a lot. If you want to get sharp large prints at such ISO settings you need a FF. Or a better crop sensor. Now, raise that limit from ISO 400 to 1600 and I don't know what to do with a FF


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## dlleno (Jun 8, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > But -- I'm just not yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new. Absent are statements such as "new, low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor. To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance. I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance. I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic.
> ...



ok this is good -- the first real evidence that the sensor itself is a different animal, i.e. that we have an 18.5MP beast instead of 18.7. I sincerely hope I'm wrong too -- this would be very good if the 18.5MP sensor actually represented the next generation in ISO/IQ from the sensor itself. I would even do the hokey pokey; just not here 



Marine03 said:


> I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.
> 
> I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200. I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.



People who say that the 7D has a bad IQ and can't produce sharp pictures should seriously consider another hobby. Probably photography is not their thing.

That said, it depends a lot on what you do in post-processing. If you start pulling out details from the shadows, sharpening, tweaking things around... then yes, the old generation of crop sensors shows its limits. I never get fully tweakable images above ISO 400. After that it's all a matter of compromise. Images @ISO 800 are ok if they're good to begin with, otherwise not so cool. They can still look fine, even @ ISO 1600 and 3200, but only if you down-size them a lot. If you want to get sharp large prints at such ISO settings you need a FF. Or a better crop sensor. Now, raise that limit from ISO 400 to 1600 and I don't know what to do with a FF 
[/quote]

yea thats not a lot different from my 40D, although there is still a clear advantage to the 7D. also -- 7D has monstor pixel density and very find pixel pitch, which means support and vibration control are all the more important. I'm really hoping this new 18.5MP sensor can, along with digic 5, deliver reliable/usable 1600 a cut above today's 7D.


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## BRNexus6 (Jun 8, 2012)

I want all the video features from the 5D Mark lll, swivel screen and headphone jack. Hopefully a new sensor with a one stop improvement in noise at high ISO compared to the 7D.


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## x-vision (Jun 8, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > But -- I'm just not yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new.
> ...



If you think that the 5DIII has a "new" sensor compared to the 5DII, then yes, the 650D's sensor is also "new".


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## RLPhoto (Jun 8, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> Marine03 said:
> 
> 
> > Albi86 said:
> ...



Yep, I shoot all the time from 100-1600 ISO on the 7D. No hesititaion with that range but, I cringe when it gets to 3200-6400 ISO but I know thats the limit. if its a dire situation, the 12800 ISO setting is the last thing I use but its saved me before.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 8, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a _fully usable_ ISO 1600 and I'm happy.



+1 - but it won't happen with the 70d, only the ff 5d3 has *fully* usable iso 1600 retaining dynamic range (!) and very low noise.


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