# Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 9, 2018)

```
<p>We’re told that Canon mentioned the replacement for the EOS 5DS / EOS 5DS R in an internal presentation last week. The camera is scheduled to be announced in the first half of 2019.</p>
<p>The presentation only mentioned one camera body to replace both the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R. I don’t think this change in the line-up would surprise anyone</p>
<p>Canon is still <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-shows-off-the-120mp-aps-h-sensor-shooting-video/">playing around with their 120mp APS-H image sensor</a>, and a big resolution bump in an EOS 5DS follow-up would be nice.</p>
<p>No specification information is available this far out.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## keithcooper (Apr 9, 2018)

That would be nice...

To people saying they don't need more MP - buy a different camera ;-)

As someone who rarely uses over ISO 400 when working. High ISO and Video are just unused switch settings ;-)


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 9, 2018)

Nice. I'll likely get one for travel/architecture, although I'd prefer a 1-series form factor with that sensor – the 1D Xs (or is that _excess_ive?)


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## YuengLinger (Apr 9, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Nice. I'll likely get one for travel/architecture, although I'd prefer a 1-series form factor with that sensor – the 1D Xs (or is that _excess_ive?)



Sorry if I missed your explanation in a previous post, but why do you prefer the larger form factor?


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## Canoneer (Apr 9, 2018)

If Canon do plan on using the 120MXSC in the 5DS II, then let's hope they've figured out a way to maintain decent dynamic range up to ISO 6400 (at least on par with the mark 1 version). That'll be tough since the 120MXSC has a full-well saturation of 14,000 electrons, but Canon engineers should be able to come up with a solution to manage read noise at moderate ISO values.


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## TAF (Apr 9, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>Canon is still <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-shows-off-the-120mp-aps-h-sensor-shooting-video/">playing around with their 120mp APS-H image sensor</a>, and a big resolution bump in an EOS 5DS follow-up would be nice.</p>
> 
> <span id="pty_trigger"></span>[/html]



Wouldn't this be the perfect time for a FF mirrorless to take advantage of the incredible resolution that would be available?

Perhaps a 160mp 5DsM?


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## BeenThere (Apr 9, 2018)

Are memory cards keeping pace? ‍


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## keithcooper (Apr 9, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Nice. I'll likely get one for travel/architecture, although I'd prefer a 1-series form factor with that sensor – the 1D Xs (or is that _excess_ive?)
> ...


For me just the solidity and bulk and build quality - I waited for a 1Ds mk4 for a long while and then when the 5Ds came out realised I wasn't going to see one, so got the 5Ds.

Over time my preference has faded a bit, but if given the choice I'd go for the 1 series body


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 9, 2018)

The current 5DS is my go to portrait camera both in the studio and on location and I really love the detail this camera provides. However their are downsides and I wonder if 120MP will only amplify those. Firstly you really need to work with a higher shutter speed to avoid camera shake normally at least one stop faster on anything between a 50mm and higher. Secondly the file sizes soon chews up storage and I had to completely upgrade to a pimped MacBook Pro to work those files at any speed so I hate to think what a file from a 120MP camera would do. Lastly the 5DS is not a camera for low light the noise can get excessive and its something Canon should make priority No.1. 
Sometimes I shoot mRaw which drops the camera to around 30MP and still get plenty of fine detail but on the whole I shoot the full 50MP which was the point of buying it and Ive not regretted at all that decision.


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## naylor83 (Apr 9, 2018)

The question is ... will it get 4K? What will the 4K crop be? Will it still have the floppy mirror inside?


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 9, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Nice. I'll likely get one for travel/architecture, although I'd prefer a 1-series form factor with that sensor – the 1D Xs (or is that _excess_ive?)
> ...



For me, better ergonomics. I used gripped bodies starting with the T1i/500D. I find the 1-series more comfortable to hold than a gripped xD body due to the shape of the portrait grip (the 5/7-series grips bulge forward and backward, the 1-series only bulges forward). Also, there is flex between the body and a battery grip that can result in vibration when on a tripod, and the integrated grip of the 1-series doesn’t have that issue.

Secondarily, the 1-series also offer more customizations, saving settings to a card, AF point-linked spot metering, etc.


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## BillB (Apr 9, 2018)

I wonder whether Canon will use Dual Pixel technology or on chip ADC technology in the new 5DS sensor. A 5DS with touchscreen focussing in Liveview might be pretty neat. Of course, it might also be mirrorless. Nobody seems to be chasing them, so I am not sure how big the megapixel bump might be.


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## Hector1970 (Apr 9, 2018)

It will be interesting what they do with it.
The 5DSR is a fine studio camera and tripod landscape camera.
It’s poor at high ISO and very slow in showing the picture if you’ve taken a few in a row. 
Frustrating for wedding photography.
If they could fix some of those issues it would be great.
100MP would be overkill in my opinion.


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## Deleted member 380306 (Apr 9, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> Are memory cards keeping pace? ‍



https://www.dpreview.com/news/9327963087/prograde-demonstrates-first-ever-1tb-cfexpress-card-with-1-400mb-s-read-speed


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## traveller (Apr 9, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> BeenThere said:
> 
> 
> > Are memory cards keeping pace? ‍
> ...



I hope that Canon are forward thinking enough to include the CF Express standard on future high end cameras, but I’m not getting my hopes up. Very few manufacturers get it right by including two slots _of the same type_; you wouldn’t have a RAID setup with vastly different drive speeds, so why would you want that on a camera with dual cards (which you effectively use as RAID 1)?


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## 3kramd5 (Apr 9, 2018)

BillB said:


> I wonder whether Canon will use Dual Pixel technology or on chip ADC technology in the new 5DS sensor.



I’d be surprised if they don’t.


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## Chaitanya (Apr 9, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> Are memory cards keeping pace? ‍


Yes they are. UHS-II SD cards can deliver write speeds in excess of 200 MB/s. XQD and CFast v2.0 both deliver write speeds of around 400MB/s. And then there is CFexpress v1.0 which is more 2x as fast as(atleast on paper) XQD/CFast. So ultimately its upto stupid Canon to decide which memory card format to implement on their High MP camera which certainly be starved to bus speed to offload images to storage medium. 

http://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/reviews/sd-cards/
https://progradedigital.com/2018/04/08/cfexpress-white-paper/
https://www.diyphotography.net/prograde-digital-announces-worlds-first-1tb-cfexpress-and-new-v90-sdxc-cards/


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## BillB (Apr 9, 2018)

traveller said:


> I hope that Canon are forward thinking enough to include the CF Express standard on future high end cameras, but I’m not getting my hopes up. Very few manufacturers get it right by including two slots _of the same type_; you wouldn’t have a RAID setup with vastly different drive speeds, so why would you want that on a camera with dual cards (which you effectively use as RAID 1)?



The reason that I saw somewhere is that two different formats gives compatibility with systems using either format.


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## traveller (Apr 9, 2018)

keithcooper said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Canon has evidently done market research and considers that the marginal revenue from making two different high megapixel bodies (1Ds & 5Ds series) wouldn't offset the marginal cost. 

I don't think that they have fully considered the high end as a _system_: there are quite a few photographers that want _both_ a 1D _and_ a 1Ds model. At the moment, the best they can do is a 1DX II and a 5DsR, but these two bodies have a different enough control layout to bring cognitive dissonances when switching from one to the other. In a way, Nikon manages this better, as the control layouts of the D5 and D850 (and D500) are pretty much identical -you can even use the D5 battery in your D850 grip by purchasing the BL-5 battery chamber cover (which also nets you the 9fps continuous shooting rate).


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## BillB (Apr 9, 2018)

traveller said:



> keithcooper said:
> 
> 
> > YuengLinger said:
> ...



Are we sure that the 5DS replacement will have the 5D form factor?


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## padam (Apr 9, 2018)

I will be a 5D IV body with newer processors (possibly Dual Digic 8 ) and more megapixels.
It will either keep the existing memory card slots or maybe switch to UHS-II and CFast 2.0. DPAF is also still very much in question, but maybe they just upscale the 24MP APS-C sensor to FF and remove the AA filter or it will be something brand new.


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## glness (Apr 9, 2018)

I don't care what name Canon gives this new camera or develops a new line. I don't care whether it is mirrorless or a traditional DSLR. I don't care about more megapixels than the present 5DS R—50mp is already great! I don't want to wait until 2019. What I want is a higher resolution (50mp), high dynamic range (14+), 10fps full-frame Canon camera for wildlife and landscapes like Nikon (D850) and Sony (a7R III) already nearly have. I have the 1DX II and it is a superb camera for its purpose, but there are many times when 20mp just doesn't cut it. I also have the current 5DS R and the 5D Mark IV. They are good cameras, but they are not the answer and innovation needed. Please fill this missing and important product category in your lineup!


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## unfocused (Apr 9, 2018)

I find this all confusing and contradictory. 

The mystery 120 APS-H sensor is not the same as a 120 mp sensor for the 5Ds series. An APS-H 120 mp sensor would scale out to about 202 mp correct? 

The most recent Canon Rumors story about the 120 mp sensor references "advanced imagery and manufacturing applications" which doesn't sound like a consumer product. 

That story in turn linked to a 2015 release referencing a 120mp DSLR "being developed." That release made no mention of sensor size. 120 mp full frame or APS-C? Big difference and unlikely to be APS-H since Canon abandoned that format for consumer products with the release of the 1Dx. 

I'm not privy to the sources that CR Guy relies on, but it sort of feels like we are being fed a mishmash of unrelated tidbits purely for the purpose of generating web traffic. I hope that is not the case.


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## unfocused (Apr 9, 2018)

traveller said:


> Canon has evidently done market research and considers that the marginal revenue from making two different high megapixel bodies (1Ds & 5Ds series) wouldn't offset the marginal cost.
> 
> I don't think that they have fully considered the high end as a _system_: there are quite a few photographers that want _both_ a 1D _and_ a 1Ds model...


As is often pointed out on this forum, speculation about what "quite a few photographer want" is not the same as actual market research. Looking at the last 5Ds release, it appears to me that Canon has done the market research and determined that making a unique high megapixel body wouldn't offset the marginal cost. They then determined that the most cost-effective solution was to save manufacturing and design costs by modifying an existing body and the body they found most cost-effective was the 5D series. 

I doubt very much if the market has changed enough that they will find it cost-effective to use anything but the 5D IV basic body design for the next generation of 5Ds.

While some might want a mirrorless design and Neuro might _want_ a 1D-style body, I suspect his own rational assessment of market forces would lead him to agree.



traveller said:


> At the moment, the best they can do is a 1DX II and a 5DsR, but these two bodies have a different enough control layout to bring cognitive dissonances when switching from one to the other...



I would have to disagree with this. I regularly use both a 1DX II and a 5D IV and find switching between these two bodies almost seamless. About the only major difference in controls that I can think of is the absence of a mode dial on the 1D series and I suspect that I am fairly typical in that I have my preferred mode and I change it rarely enough that I don't find it that difficult to switch between the two. 

Perhaps it's just difference use cases, but I would be curious what sort of "cognitive differences" you struggle with.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 9, 2018)

unfocused said:


> I find this all confusing and contradictory.
> 
> The mystery 120 APS-H sensor is not the same as a 120 mp sensor for the 5Ds series. An APS-H 120 mp sensor would scale out to about 202 mp correct?



No. It would scale to 315MP.


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## BillB (Apr 9, 2018)

padam said:


> I will be a 5D IV body with newer processors (possibly Dual Digic 8 ) and more megapixels.
> It will either keep the existing memory card slots or maybe switch to UHS-II and CFast 2.0. DPAF is also still very much in question, but maybe they just upscale the 24MP APS-C sensor to FF and remove the AA filter or it will be something brand new.



Likely you are right about the 5D body, but maybe they will decide it needs two batteries.


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## 3kramd5 (Apr 9, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I find this all confusing and contradictory.
> ...



190MPish

120MP*860mm2/550mm2

181MP if you don’t grossly round off to generic areas and instead use linear pixel density.

(36mm/29mm*13280px)*(24mm/20mm*9184px)/1,000,000


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## Talys (Apr 9, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I find this all confusing and contradictory.
> ...



Sweet. So a 64GB memory card will hold like, 100 pictures


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## unfocused (Apr 9, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> privatebydesign said:
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> > unfocused said:
> ...



Okay, I was going 120 x 1.3 x 1.3 =202.8, but I probably have that wrong.


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## 3kramd5 (Apr 9, 2018)

unfocused said:


> 3kramd5 said:
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> 
> > privatebydesign said:
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That would work but the ratio (crop factor) is closer to 1.25 than 1.3.


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## Maiaibing (Apr 9, 2018)

Talys said:


> Sweet. So a 64GB memory card will hold like, 100 pictures



In case which a 512 gb card for 40$ would hold like 800 pictures...


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## rrcphoto (Apr 9, 2018)

traveller said:


> TonyPicture said:
> 
> 
> > BeenThere said:
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as with CPU's on computers, you have limited number of bus lanes for I/O,the faster the interface the more lanes are necessary.


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## rrcphoto (Apr 9, 2018)

unfocused said:


> I find this all confusing and contradictory.
> 
> The mystery 120 APS-H sensor is not the same as a 120 mp sensor for the 5Ds series. An APS-H 120 mp sensor would scale out to about 202 mp correct?
> 
> ...



canon's already stated they are developing a 120MP DSLR.

that's a hard cold fact, that was released as an official announcement from Japan Inc.

the fact that they have a 120MP APS-H sensor, is most likely coincidence. they had to work on scale out, and APS-H is an economical size because it's the largest single exposure a stepper can do at a time.


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## 3kramd5 (Apr 9, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I find this all confusing and contradictory.
> ...



agreed, it’s very Unlikely that aged sensor has anything to do with a new product, other than maybe as a surrogate (for example to generate data) in circuit development.


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## ashmadux (Apr 9, 2018)

Ever notice how when it's early in the year, we get hints that canon is dropping something that's practically overdue...

"_*NEXT*_" year. 

At this point, who cares...too slow, see ya in 8 months.

PS- YAWN :-\


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## traveller (Apr 9, 2018)

unfocused said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has evidently done market research and considers that the marginal revenue from making two different high megapixel bodies (1Ds & 5Ds series) wouldn't offset the marginal cost.
> ...



Yeah, I'm sure that Canon's market research told them there wasn't enough demand for a new 1Ds, which is why they build the 5Ds only -hence why I wrote that in my first comment. Whilst my perception is purely anecdotal, I would question how comprehensive Canon's market research actually is: have you ever received a survey? No one that I know ever has, though one friend is quite close to the local rep and he told him that Canon thought the 1Ds series couldn't compete with medium format (this was before all the 'affordable' MF options came around -other than the 645D). Need we forget that Nikon's marketing told them that there was huge demand for a range of new action cameras... 



unfocused said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > At the moment, the best they can do is a 1DX II and a 5DsR, but these two bodies have a different enough control layout to bring cognitive dissonances when switching from one to the other...
> ...



I'm glad that you find changing between bodies so simple, maybe it's usage case, maybe you're just very talented ;-) 

Personally, I hate having two cameras where the top button layouts are almost entirely different, such as with the 1D and 5D series: 

http://camerasize.com/compact/#682,655,ha,t

I think this difference is farcical, pick one layout and stick with it unless there is a very good reason not to. I happen to dislike both arrangements, I think the two button press on the 1D is not necessary and the dial on the 5D is limiting as it is the only 'hard' control point (other than the power switch) -meaning that you can't change modes when shooting remotely.


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## Maiaibing (Apr 9, 2018)

If its 100 MPIX+ I'll buy for sure, but I fear an agonising 80 MPIX. 

Too little to justify upgrading the 5DS/R. Too much to ignore if the "packaging" is interesting (swivel screen, dual pixels etc.).

Anything less than 80 MPIX is not for me.


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## Talys (Apr 9, 2018)

I will almost certainly buy this if it has:

- Swivel screen
- 6fps+
- 15+ picture buffer at full uncompressed resolution

I don't think that is too much to ask for, right?


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## NancyP (Apr 9, 2018)

More dynamic range, say, an extra stop. Same number of MP. 
Really, folks - I want to see your computer specs, if you are ecstatic about the prospect of crunching 100+ MP files!  OK, so I have an older computer... I do figure in the cost of computer upgrade to the cost of a higher MP camera. A tilt screen that didn't make it impossible to use L brackets would be nice.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 9, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
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Sorry yes, I was thinking APS-C not APS-H. Stupid Canon...


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## takesome1 (Apr 9, 2018)

50+ mp was enough.
I would settle for 8 fps with little or just a modest bump in resolution.


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## crashpc (Apr 9, 2018)

Well, 40Mpx APS-C camera for people on budget would really help too...


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## Isaacheus (Apr 10, 2018)

Talys said:


> I will almost certainly buy this if it has:
> 
> - Swivel screen
> - 6fps+
> ...



This would really be slightly disappointing if they couldn't exceed those expectations. I can see the fps staying low on account of the 5dmk4, but the buffer should be easy to improve.


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## Talys (Apr 10, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > I will almost certainly buy this if it has:
> ...



I expect they should exceed that, but a lot of things like fps and buffer depend on resolution. If it is 60 megapixels and 8fps, I'll be happy, and if it is 80 megapixels and 6fps, I'll be happy too. 

The fps/buffer/buffer clear speeds matter too, as well as with inexpensive 90MB/s UHS-1 cards. I don't mind buying 1 or 2 expensive cards, but I would like the camera to be usably responsive with cheap cards too. 

Also, CR3 support - let's see what that nets us. And, sorry, one more thing, a better crop mode than the current 5DS. 

At the end of the day, though, I would have bought 5DSR or 5D4 had either been given an articulating screen, and I still think both are great cameras, so that is 90% of my wishlist anyhow. The 5DSR also currently feels sluggish, but I expect they will fix that.


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## tron (Apr 10, 2018)

My wish - although without much hope - 

5D4 capabilities and sensor technology and no more than 60Mpixel (even better to stay to 50) so as to have significant improvement in fps (= 7 fps) and reasonable capability to empty the buffer.

50 is more than enough especially if you combine it with a 5D4 like sensor, touch screen, DPAF and GPS.
I would like CF + SD II to excel in compatibility (Have you read about various CFAST card issues and I am not talking about the Sandisk 1dxIi fix) and have reasonable speed at the same time.

As I said just dreaming. I feel these are reasonable requirements but I do not believe they will happen.


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## Talys (Apr 10, 2018)

tron said:


> My wish - although without much hope -
> 
> 5D4 capabilities and sensor technology and no more than 60Mpixel (even better to stay to 50) so as to have significant improvement in fps (= 7 fps) and reasonable capability to empty the buffer.
> 
> ...



I'm totally with you. Add a floppy screen, and I'm in.


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## justawriter (Apr 10, 2018)

unfocused said:


> I'm not privy to the sources that CR Guy relies on, but it sort of feels like we are being fed a mishmash of unrelated tidbits purely for the purpose of generating web traffic. I hope that is not the case.



Um, have you considered the meaning of the term "rumor site"? If you want certainty in what Canon is planning for the next 18 months, I suggest you get a job as a Canon executive in charge of new cameras.


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## jolyonralph (Apr 10, 2018)

I don't think there's a hope in hell that this will be a 120mpx camera.

The competition haven't even yet beaten 50mpx, Sony has settled at 42mpx without feeling the need to go higher, and 120mpx will simply be even more demanding of the quality of your glass with inter-copy variation even on L lenses starting to make it difficult to know which lenses are worth buying or not.

So, other than specialist devices I doubt we'll ever see 120mpx full-frame (or APS-H) in a regular camera body.

60mpx is the sweet spot because it's using the tried and tested dot pitch from 24mpx APS-C cameras. Why spend more R&D creating new sized sensors when you don't need to?

So I'm pretty sure we'll see 60mpx, DPAF, 4K video with approx 10% horizontal crop (1:2 scaling), wifi, touch screen and all the other modern upgrades. Doubt it will have a tilty screen, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't identical to the Canon 5DIV case in the same way thhe 5DSR was related to the 5D III.


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## BillB (Apr 10, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> So I'm pretty sure we'll see 60mpx, DPAF, 4K video with approx 10% horizontal crop (1:2 scaling), wifi, touch screen and all the other modern upgrades. Doubt it will have a tilty screen, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't identical to the Canon 5DIV case in the same way thhe 5DSR was related to the 5D III.



There is also on sensor ADC technology to think about, as we discovered with the 6DII. I wonder if there are any pixel density scaling issues associated with PDAF and on sensor ADC. Canon does seem to be using the same case for all the 5D models but if they are going to make a design change, it has to start somewhere. They could make the change with the new 5DS rather than wait for the 5DV (assuming that there will be a 5DV if the new 5DS has all the goodies we are talking about).


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## danski0224 (Apr 10, 2018)

traveller said:


> Canon has evidently done market research and considers that the marginal revenue from making two different high megapixel bodies (1Ds & 5Ds series) wouldn't offset the marginal cost.



I really doubt that this is the reason.

The 1DsIII is still the reigning megapixel count 1D series body- introduced in 2007. Many still believe that it has the best colors from a Canon camera at 100 ISO.

It has been said here and there online that the 1DXII is nearly the equal to the 1DsIII at low ISO, but is still fewer megapixels.

In other words, it has taken 10 years between product releases to (nearly) equal a camera that was introduced in 2007 at 100 ISO. Granted, there is a bunch of other stuff that is better than the 1DsIII on the 1DXII, but those that want ISO 100 image quality probably don't really care about (much of) the other stuff. Like me.

Canon is a conservative company.

The 1DIII AF issues are still mentioned. The 1DX did not AF at f/8 until a firmware update. Loss of the red AF points. No more precision matte screen support. The 1DxII does not have full touchscreen implementation.

I believe that Canon would never release a 1DsIII replacement without testing the waters first. Even the 1DXII can be considered a "half step" improvement, but Canon knows that working pro's need to upgrade their stuff every few years from use.

The 5Ds(R) is that test. A big beta test for sensor manufacturing, whether or not the camera sells, which model sells more numbers, whether or not people buy a camera marketed as a "specialty camera" with ISO limitations. Possibly a test of the Canon DPP software, too. Much cheaper to do this (physical product and reputation) than to release a 1D series body with issues.

Other cameras are bringing together DPAF and touchscreen implementation.

Whenever Canon decides to bring all of this together, it will be pretty sweet.

I would be surprised if there is no equivalent to the 5Ds(R) replacement, but housed in a 1D series body, released between now and 2020. There is no longer a technical excuse to not do it, because the sensor technology today is now proven to move on from the 1DsIII. I bet that whatever is in the pipeline is even better yet.


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## unfocused (Apr 10, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> 60mpx is the sweet spot because it's using the tried and tested dot pitch from 24mpx APS-C cameras. Why spend more R&D creating new sized sensors when you don't need to?



That assumes that neither the 7DIII or the 90D will have any increase in megapixel count. I think that's higher unlikely. With the 24mpx sensor now being pushed down to the Rebel line, I expect the 7D, 90D and 5Ds will introduce the next level 28-30 mpx for APS-C and 71-76 mpx for the 5Ds. 



BillB said:


> Canon does seem to be using the same case for all the 5D models but if they are going to make a design change, it has to start somewhere. They could make the change with the new 5DS rather than wait for the 5DV.



They could, but I suspect the cost of retooling would take much longer to recoup because the 5Ds series only represents a tiny fraction of 5D sales. More cost-effective to wait until you are reworking your bigger selling body.


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## Maiaibing (Apr 10, 2018)

unfocused said:


> They could, but I suspect the cost of retooling would take much longer to recoup because the 5Ds series only represents a tiny fraction of 5D sales.



Any facts to back this claim would be very interesting.


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## unfocused (Apr 10, 2018)

Maiaibing said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > They could, but I suspect the cost of retooling would take much longer to recoup because the 5Ds series only represents a tiny fraction of 5D sales.
> ...



Common sense. I can't think why anyone would believe that the sales of the 5Ds series would come anywhere close to those of the 5D. 

However, if you want some facts, take a look at the Amazon list of best sellers and try to find a 5Ds on the list. Three 5D models (Two IVs and one III) are in the top 100. Nothing with an "s."

Nothing with an "s" on the B&H best seller list either. A quick Google search on best selling DSLRs yields plenty of 5D models but again, nothing with an 's." 

You can't really believe the 's' series would ever come close to matching the standard 5D?


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## unfocused (Apr 10, 2018)

justawriter said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not privy to the sources that CR Guy relies on, but it sort of feels like we are being fed a mishmash of unrelated tidbits purely for the purpose of generating web traffic. I hope that is not the case.
> ...



Um...perhaps you should spend a little more time understanding what Canon Rumors is all about. CR Guy has built a reputation for having inside sources who slip him meaningful tidbits. There is a rating system to evaluate the validity of the rumors. 

His reputation is based on his ability to sort through the rumors and separate the wheat from the chaff. My point was simply that in this case there seemed to be a lot of stringing together unrelated information and making something new out of it. That's out of character.


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## BillB (Apr 10, 2018)

unfocused said:


> justawriter said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



CR guy said not to long ago that there didn't seem to be much in the way of exciting rumors lately, so he is ls going, as usual, with the best he has, which is likely pretty close to the best there is. CR posters are going to post, because that is what we do--wheat, chaff or whatever. This particular thread is based on a CR2 report that Canon will roll out a replacement for the 5DS in the first half of next year, which isn't a lot to work with, but here we are on page 4.


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## I Simonius (Apr 11, 2018)

as lovely as it would be for huge prints, and as much as I'm a detail hound, etc, I'm cautious because the timer pix will mean less DOF for the same f-stop in landscapes, needing further stopping down and treading on the feet of the circle of confusion, so losing the possible level of top detail- a quandary of higher mp.


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## scyrene (Apr 11, 2018)

I Simonius said:


> the timer pix will mean less DOF for the same f-stop in landscapes



What do you mean?


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## jolyonralph (Apr 11, 2018)

For me I'd be happy for it to continue to be 50 megapixels as long as they can dramatically improve framerate and low ISO performance. 

Those are the two critically important things.

Add in DPAF (but that's pretty much a given with new sensors), throw two full speed UHS-II slots in (not one fast and one crippled slot), ditch CF for good (please, please please do NOT put a CFast slot in. I'd like to be able to afford to buy more than one fast card) and we're done.

I don't need tilty screens, I don't need 4K video, but it would be nice, and I certainly don't want it in a 1D factor body (get a grip, people!).


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## Maiaibing (Apr 11, 2018)

unfocused said:


> You can't really believe the 's' series would ever come close to matching the standard 5D?



You said a *tiny *fraction... its certainly not.

Stats on uploaded pic's to the internet point to a current 4:1 ratio for the 5DIV. And I _suspect _that average posting rate on top is a little lower for the 5DS/R than the 5DIV - even if we can probably discount this in a big numbers game.


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## BillB (Apr 11, 2018)

I Simonius said:


> as lovely as it would be for huge prints, and as much as I'm a detail hound, etc, I'm cautious because the timer pix will mean less DOF for the same f-stop in landscapes, needing further stopping down and treading on the feet of the circle of confusion, so losing the possible level of top detail- a quandary of higher mp.



Although diffraction causes more loss of detail at the pixel level for a sensor with more pixels, my understanding is that for the same size print, the sensor with more pixels will still produce more detail at the same fstop than a same size sensor with fewer pixels. On a print of the same size, the each pixel on the higher density sensor covers less area on the print than a pixel on the lower density sensor, and this difference has more effect on detail than the greater diffraction effect of the smaller pixels.


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## unfocused (Apr 12, 2018)

Maiaibing said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > You can't really believe the 's' series would ever come close to matching the standard 5D?
> ...



I'm not going to quibble over "tiny fraction" vs. "fraction," so I've amended my comment. It doesn't negate my point that a body style change for a model that sells less than another model is going to take longer to recoup.


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## melgross (May 21, 2018)

Please, let’s not talk about this 120MP sensor for a DSLR.

It’s quite clear that this isn’t intended for such use for a general purpose camera. Most DSLRs, as well as mirrorless models, have 14 bit sensors. This has a 10 bit sensor. As such, it’s more aimed at video, considering the rolling shutter.

What a replacement 5Ds needs is a sensor that’s a bit higher in Rez, to keep ahead of the Nikon/Sony models we’ll see in the next couple of years, say 60MP, and a significantly better noise ratio and dynamic range, areas in which Canon is still behind. We don’t know if this sensor contains the amplifier on chip, as do the Nikon/Sony sensors, and the newest Canon devices, or not.

No matter what, full frame cameras will never equal the dynamic range of even the sub medium format sensors used the in Hasselblad and Fuji models that are 44 x 33mm, at higher resolutions. So that’s where we need concentration, not pie in the sky resolution.


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## Maiaibing (Jun 5, 2018)

melgross said:


> No matter what, full frame cameras will never equal the dynamic range of even the sub medium format sensors used the in Hasselblad and Fuji models that are 44 x 33mm, at higher resolutions. So that’s where we need concentration, not pie in the sky resolution.



The 5DIV with 1 stop better DR below iso 400 than the 5DS/R is already available for those who think that matters to their photography. Not that bad compared to the competition either. Those who desperately want more at low iso have likely left Canon by now, since Canon has been lagging behind with DR for years.

The rest of us would like to have a real MPIX increase - thank you. 5DS/R actually has excellent DR and high iso on par with the 5DIV plus super colors and quite good fps. I'll happily have incremental improvements on all those - but its the MPIX that makes the 5DS/R an outstanding - even unrivalled - DSLR. It should be the same for its successor.


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## cpsico (Jun 6, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Nice. I'll likely get one for travel/architecture, although I'd prefer a 1-series form factor with that sensor – the 1D Xs (or is that _excess_ive?)


+1


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## tron (Jun 6, 2018)

5DsR needs a memory buffer boost and maybe 1 to 2 fps more. Add the new sensor (5D4-like) capabilities, touch screen, GPS and Dual pixel (if possible due to already smaller pixels) and you have a winner for a long time.


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## jeffa4444 (Jun 12, 2018)

Here is my wish list based on the excellent 5DS for improvements. 

1. Faster flash sync speed
2. Illuminated focus points after focus lock
3. Dual Pixel
4. Touch screen
5. Better low light / dynamic range performance
6. Faster write speed to cards

Some would argue for more MP but I think 50MP is fine


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## ahsanford (Jun 12, 2018)

Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price. $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's _spectacular_ price retention. I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later. 

Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

2) Don't throw anything at me, but is this sort of price strength over time ever a tell that Canon doesn't really need to update that model right now? I fully recognize all the tech that isn't in the 5DS models today, and wouldn't we all find a supercamera with increase throughput a la the D850 / A7R3 something to marvel at -- but perhaps Canon doesn't need to replace the 5DS models and could just keep printing money by extending the lifecycle another year like they did with the 7D1. (<-- I realize that's a wildly different camera and Nikon left that segment dormant for a cycle, but the question is clear: If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)

- A


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## Talys (Jun 12, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price. $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's _spectacular_ price retention. I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...



I'm actually AMAZED at how the 5DSR has retained its price.

The things I want from a new model, that might entice me to buy one are:

1. I want the camera to feel generally, more responsive than the current 5DSR.

2. A better (read: not JPEG...) crop mode.

3. 6D2 touchscreen niceties, and 6D2 flip screen.

I'm sure it will have dual pixel and that kind of thing, and some minor sensor improvements are welcome, but I'm ambivalent about significantly > 50 megapixels.


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## ahsanford (Jun 12, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Questions:
> 
> 1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?



Just following up on this bit:

Nikon D850 = still at original asking price one year later.

Sony A7R III = Just got price reduced for the first time -- also about a year old. That _might_ be a victim of some cannibalization, though. The A7 III is a bit of a beast for the dollar, and it's possible folks don't feel the added cost of the A7R III is as strong of a value in comparison.

Sony A99-II (the forgotten supercamera these days) = Still at original asking price some 1.5 years later.

I am leaving the RX1R II out of this as I feel that's being deliberately marketed to a different crowd, almost like the Nikon Df was. It's a showpiece that lives/dies on being something painful to attain. I don't think Sony will discount that thing one bit, but I think that's more about it's perceived luxury status than any resolution-fueled staying power.

I know we only have a limited set of products to judge this on, but it would appear that regardless of whether we think we _need_ 40-50 MP, the market still seems quite comfortable paying top dollar for it.

- A


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## Talys (Jun 12, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Sony A7R III = Just got price reduced for the first time -- also about a year old. That _might_ be a victim of some cannibalization, though. The A7 III is a bit of a beast for the dollar, and it's possible folks don't feel the added cost of the A7R III is as strong of a value in comparison.



The A7R3 was effectively price reduced a not too long after launch, as Sony offered $300 instant trade-in rebate of any interchangeable camera body or lens. You could bring in a broken FD lens and claim on the $300 (at the same time, there was a $500 trade in for the A9).

On the other hand, Sony has no good body+lens deals.


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## ahsanford (Jun 12, 2018)

Talys said:


> The A7R3 was effectively price reduced a not too long after launch, as Sony offered $300 instant trade-in rebate of any interchangeable camera body or lens. You could bring in a broken FD lens and claim on the $300 (at the same time, there was a $500 trade in for the A9).



That's not a price drop so much as a promotion, right? 

The first price drop just happened, I believe.

https://www.cpricewatch.com/product/06423/Sony-Alpha-a7R-III-price.html

- A


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## Talys (Jun 14, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > The A7R3 was effectively price reduced a not too long after launch, as Sony offered $300 instant trade-in rebate of any interchangeable camera body or lens. You could bring in a broken FD lens and claim on the $300 (at the same time, there was a $500 trade in for the A9).
> ...



Oh, you mean *permanent* price drop. I see.

Yeah, when, I meant, a reduced price / sale of some kind during a limited window. 10% is a pretty big discount right after launch.


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## applecider (Jun 16, 2018)

Given premise that the more MP the worse the high iso performance...

And given that canon seems to like new cameras to increase MP without a decrease in high iOS performance....

The question is how many more pixels can continue to support a max standard iso 6400 even with on chip processing. I’m guessing that that number is somewhere near 60 MP. 

So that is my prediction for the 5DSR ii, 60MP same iso range.

Second hope is if there could be an in camera down sampling, or pooling of adjacent pixels to provide a higher iso option, and if this would degrade image quality. If not maybe a 120MP camera with 4:1 high iso crop mode where each 4 pixel cluster is added and averaged to effectively downsample to 30MP (each four pixel group averages into one so 120/4 yields 30MP) . At 120MP iso max might be 3200, but downsampled could be 25600. I don’t know how the math works and if Potential gains are linear or or proportional to number of pixels pooled to down sample.

Does anyone know if any camera system currently does this and if so how much gain in high iso is achieved. I would hope that noise could be cut to 1/4th with a 4:1 down sampling. 

The other problem with this approach is that each image would require a significant amount of processing before getting to memory card.


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## dak723 (Jun 16, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Questions:
> ...



Because there's a sucker born every minute! 8) ;D :-[


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## AlanF (Jun 16, 2018)

Talys said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price. $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's _spectacular_ price retention. I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later.
> ...



We both share a passion for bird photography. Unless I am going for an action photography session, my go-to body for a birding day is my 5DSR and not my 5DIV. Its high resolution sensor combined with the absence of an AA-filter gives an effective 600mm "reach" with the 100-400mm II relative to using it on your 6DII. Further, the noise issue is not real. I have posted in CR bird images taken at iso 6400 pushed 1 to 2 stops, processed with DxO PRIME (taken by wife as she uses it and I the 5DIV when we go out together).

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=35153.msg723607#msg723607


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## zim (Jun 16, 2018)

AlanF said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



I'm really curious about this and your images make your point well , do you feel this also holds up for BIF?


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## unfocused (Jun 16, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ...but the question is clear: If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)...



Because the 5Ds series used a 5DIII body to save manufacturing costs and the 5DIII has been supplanted by the 5DIV. I don't know what the differences are for manufacturing purposes but Canon may not want to keep the 5DIII/5Ds line running just for the 5Ds. 

Your point is valid, but there may be other cost-saving reasons to update the 5Ds.


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## Talys (Jun 16, 2018)

zim said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



Alan's 5DSR BIF photos are excellent  He's posted lots of great shots in BIF threads with a variety of lenses.

@Alan - I agree that for our birding hobby, the 5DSR is superior camera than a 6D2, hands-down. On top of the resolution, it has better AF, too. I'd have bought one when it came out, except that I also use my cameras for work, where I have to do some product photography, often from ladder-height, and without a fully articulating screen (with mirror mode) this work becomes much harder.

It is the main reason that I stuck with Rebels and xxD's all the way until 6D2. I've tried a field monitor, but this did not work well, because without the mirror mode, things move in the opposite direction in the image as they do in the arrangement.


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## AlanF (Jun 17, 2018)

Phil - thanks for your kind comments! The AF of the 5DSR is indeed excellent as well. Once you have got used to the clarity of images from the 5DSR, it is difficult to get back to other bodies. I wish that Canon would put a cropped 5DSR sensor into a new APS-C body.


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## dtaylor (Jun 29, 2018)

applecider said:


> Given premise that the more MP the worse the high iso performance...



This is a false premise except, possibly, for very long astro photos.

_5Ds isn't good at high ISO_ became a meme in early reviews thanks to pixel peeping and Canon capping the max ISO at 12,800. In reality it's as good as any other FF when viewed at the same _physical size,_ i.e. the same print size. A few sites figured this out and reported accurately on the 5Ds high ISO capabilities. One big one being Imaging Resource in their print quality section.

Even today, 3 years later, it's maybe 2/3rds to 1 stop behind the newest FF bodies at high ISO. (5D4, D850, A7 third generation.) Canon really should have set the max ISO at 25,600.

High ISO concerns held me back on buying a 5Ds until I played with some RAW files and realized I wasn't giving anything up. In fact, I would rather work with high megapixel high ISO RAW files because I don't need to sharpen at all (sharpening emphasizes noise) and I can trade off some MP for NR.



> Second hope is if there could be an in camera down sampling, or pooling of adjacent pixels to provide a higher iso option, and if this would degrade image quality.



If Canon included an algorithm that could intelligently trade off MP for significant NR it would be icing on the cake.


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## M_S (Jun 29, 2018)

For me it comes down to these things, I would like to see in a 5DSR II:
General:
* Same MP. 50 MP is plenty and diffraction visibly sets in at f8 on most of my lenses already. Leave it as it is.
* OVF with kind of overlay function (Histogram, focus assist), Hybrid OVF/EVF (switchable) or go full EVF with high MP and fps for eye relief
* Better ISO performance (to compensate for higher shutter speeds for sharp pictures or in body stabilization - see below) and moderately better dynamic range. ISO should be prio 1
* Better overall performance (BUSY screen should be a thing of the past)
* Greater buffer and at least double SD UHC II or faster (two cards of the same card type), to clear the buffer faster.
* easy bluetooth and wlan configuration with remote access to the camera features (coming into play with the proposed "soft" focus feature down below), app support

Photo:
* Focus assist + focus peaking for manual lens support is a must. AF confirmation, as of now brings you very close, but its only an afterthought as you have to wait for a beep, not knowing when it comes into effect. Focus assist is a definitve reference "where" the plane of focus is in that moment. It' easy and of great help. This alone would be huge for me. 
* Perhaps in body stabilization?

Film:
* "soft" aperture control to simulate a declicked lens (small electronic increments of a stop)
* 4K 60p without crop
* LOG profile support
* Clean HDMI out

General and photo would be on high priority, "soft" focus should be farely easy to implement as of today. If both topics would be covered in this camera, it would be an instant buy for me and without hesitation. Rest ist nice to have.


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## Maiaibing (Jun 29, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> applecider said:
> 
> 
> > Given premise that the more MP the worse the high iso performance...
> ...



Correct, and its even only like that until iso 400 - after that 5DSR is on par with the 5DIV.


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