# Choosing Lee starting kit



## Ladislav (Feb 9, 2017)

For a long time, I was considering a filter system. I was considering either Lee or NiSi and at the end I think I've decided to go for Lee system. I hope the Lee system is compatible with NiSi graduated filters if I want to buy some of those later.

Anyway. I'm trying to figure out what would be a good starting setup. I don't want to buy something I will not be using later. I want to use the system for landscape (including sunrise, sunset, coastal) and cityscape photography and perhaps some long exposures.

I was thinking about:
- Lee Holder
- 77mm wide angle adaptor (for my 16-35)
- 82mm wide angle adapter (for my 24 TS and 24-70)
- Little Stopper for coastal and landscapes
- Big Stopper for long exposures
- Two grads

I don't know what grads to choose. I'm considering one soft grad (is medium better?) and one hard grad. Both probably 2 stops.

Any suggestions? What filters are you using most often?


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 9, 2017)

For sunrise/sunset, you might consider a reverse grad (Singh-Ray, HiTech).


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## Ladislav (Feb 9, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> For sunrise/sunset, you might consider a reverse grad (Singh-Ray, HiTech).



That is one reason why I hope Lee holder is compatible with NiSi filters because NiSi offers reverse grad as well. I was actually considering for all grads from NiSi (to have glass ones instead of resin ones).


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## slclick (Feb 9, 2017)

What I did after agonizing over which system forND etc.

I bought a 3rd party holder with various adapters (72/77/82 etc) for under $20 and spent my real money on the filters (Formatt Hitech-Firecrest) None of the kits had everything I wanted and the name brand holders are just too overpriced.


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## LDS (Feb 9, 2017)

Ladislav said:


> I don't know what grads to choose. I'm considering one soft grad (is medium better?) and one hard grad. Both probably 2 stops.



Rule of thumb is hard grads for straight "horizons", soft for more "complex" ones. But the lens focal lens also play a role - UWAs may make the hard grads separation too visible, the other way round with telephoto. 

Here's Lee explanation: https://leefilters.uservoice.com/knowledgebase/articles/860136-very-hard-and-medium-grads

About the stops - it depends on the situation, the three filters sets are versatile, albeit expensive.


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## ahsanford (Feb 9, 2017)

I would ask why you'd get a NiSi setup when (as I understand it) Lee is the biggest show in town in terms of compatibility. Most everyone in the 4x4 / 4x6 filter game designs their filters to fit with the Lee holder. I don't know the NiSi design, but if it doesn't have the same slot thickness specs, you may be handcuffed into buying filters from a smaller pool of suppliers.

- A


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## ahsanford (Feb 9, 2017)

My setup:

16-35 f/4L IS (...usually, I sometimes use the 24-70 f/4L IS or 70-200 f/2.8L IS II)
77mm WA adaptor ring (always get a WA ring -- works just fine with longer FLs)
Two slot Lee 100mm holder
105mm CPL ring (screwed into the holder as normal)
B+W 105mm Kaesemann CPL

Stack = Naked lens --> WA Ring --> Holder with two slots --> CPL

(Other than the B+W 105 selection instead of Lee's 105 selection and the fact it's Canon and not Nikon, this is basically the setup Joe Cornish shows off in his videos for Lee if you want to see how the stack works in the field.

What's good about this setup?


It's Lee. Filter options for days at all sorts of price points.
With no CPL in place, my 16-35 f/4L IS does not vignette at 16mm at FF, which is a minor miracle for two filters being stacked.
Independently set polarization without rotating your grads is essential to landscape work, IMHO, and this lets you do that.
The CPL is not a mandatory element buried deep in the stack (as some systems do). If I want to remove the CPL, I can do that easily without pulling everything else out, losing my grad orientation, etc. 

What's bad about this setup?


With my specific CPL in place in front of two slots that I've shown in the pic, you'll vignette on anything wider than 20mm on the 16-35 f/4L IS (remember each lens is a little different depending on how tightly located the front filter ring is to the front element, and each 105mm CPL varies in rail thickness a bit). This sounds bad, but it's more of a reality of shooting UWA with a 100mm system. (Consider: Still being able to shoot down to 20mm with three optical elements hanging in front of the lens is actually quite good -- the only way to beat that is to pull a slot out or go to a much larger filter system.)
You've got a semi-naked front element -- just the WA ring in there, so your weather sealing is compromised from particulate/moisture. The filters themselves will take a splash hit frontally, but a splash from the side or any kind of steady precipitation could get in your lens.
105mm CPLs -- especially good ones -- are quite expensive. If you must have 16mm non-vignetted shots, B+W sells a CPL that has a 105mm male thread for screwing into the holder, but a gargantuan oversized (guessing 120mm) front ring to minimize vignetting but it costs a fortune (last I saw, something absurd like $600).
The CPL ring is semi-permanently affixed to the foundation holder via small screws (see video linked above). It works just fine, but in the field changeout of the screws is _not_ recommended. They are tiny, and I could easily see someone losing them if not done in a controlled counter top sort of activity.
Reducing the number of slots in the field is an unqualified clusterf---. The holder is a sandwich of many small pieces, so in no circumstances should you pull those screws out in the field or it will be a hot mess to put back together.

So all that said, I would recommend the Lee setup 100%. There are cheaper options, there are slicker options, but the system just works for me. But in buying into a setup, do not underestimate the power of the dark side phenomenon of holder/filter vignetting from sitting in an UWA field of view. *Systems don't get larger/wider after you buy them*, so before you make a big investment, make sure you can live with the physical limits of the system you are interested in.

- A


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## jprusa (Feb 9, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> For sunrise/sunset, you might consider a reverse grad (Singh-Ray, HiTech).


Agree, I have the Lee filters and got the 4 stop reverse grad Singh-Ray and hardly ever use the Lee filters.


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## Sabaki (Feb 9, 2017)

I went for the following:
• Foundation kit
• Adaptor rings
• Big stopper
• 0.3, 0,6 & 0'9 soft grads
• 105mm polarizer


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## Zeidora (Feb 9, 2017)

For your little and big stopper, consider Breakthrough Photography, particularly if you want to use it also with Lee ND grads. The BP are the most neutral, you still can add Lee adapter on top, and they go up to 82 mm diameter. I've noticed some pretty severe color shifts when I used two Lee ND-grads stacked for double gradient. Very difficult to fix in post.

Agree on Lee WA adaptors. Get the original Lee WA adaptor for the widest lens (usually also largest filter thread), then use cheap step-up rings for other lenses.

Hard vs. soft grads, it just depends. I have both sets with 3 steps.

I have the 105 pol, but don't use it much. I find that I either use pol or ND, but not both. You may consider a Lee compendium shade. I find that useful, but cannot be used with the 105 pol. I am one of those religious hood users.


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## Ladislav (Feb 9, 2017)

LDS said:


> Ladislav said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know what grads to choose. I'm considering one soft grad (is medium better?) and one hard grad. Both probably 2 stops.
> ...



Based on this guide it looks like more suitable for my expectations would be medium and hard. On the other hand, photographers did very well with soft grads for years and medium grads were introduced just recently.

I initially considered sets but I'm not sure what use has 1 stop grad. I think I would use it very rarely, more likely almost never.


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## Ladislav (Feb 9, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> My setup:
> 
> 16-35 f/4L IS (...usually, I sometimes use the 24-70 f/4L IS or 70-200 f/2.8L IS II)
> 77mm WA adaptor ring (always get a WA ring -- works just fine with longer FLs)
> ...



Thanks, that is a setup I would like to achieve in the future but I decided to start without CPL to keep the initial investment lower and to decide what CPL I want later. 

May I ask what grads are you using most often?

As for NiSi - filters "should" be compatible with Lee holder. I would actually expect those filters to be better than Lee resin ones, more scratch resistant, but more fragile. But that is just my assumption. Their holder has exactly design with CPL inside - one reason why I decided that I prefer Lee holder.


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## ahsanford (Feb 9, 2017)

My Lee big stopper has a horrific color shift -- almost beyond the ability to back out in RAW processing. But my Lee ND grads have been fine.

A word of caution on thread-based (and not slot-in) ND filters:

[list type=decimal]
[*]It's one thing if you are using a 2-3 stop ND to slow down the shutter on a bright day, but a 5+ stop setup makes LiveView work much harder. So most people would recommend getting everything right focus-wise, framing, exposure, etc. in LiveView without the big stopper and then apply your big stopper with the corresponding shutter speed multiplier --> _that's very hard to do if you are doing landscape work and that thread-in ND is at the base of your 'stack of stuff'._ However, there are some holder systems that allow to use that thread-in ND in a cartridge like holder that allow you to pop it in and out as you please (almost like a 4x6 but allowing you to keep an on-lens ND as an option).


[*]A thread-in ND will exacerbate any wide angle mechanical vignetting if you are stacking more stuff in front of it -- ND grads, CPL, etc. The goal with 4x6 system is to stop using the lens threads as soon as you can and 'get wide' immediately after the front element of the lens -- i.e. use a WA adapter and stack stuff on _that_ in a much wider context. By using the threads for your ND (or CPL), even if you have a slick on-off system holder for that, you are gobbling up critical space in front of the front element that you can't get back further out. Hard to do that with words, but does it make sense?
[/list]

But screw-in NDs are perfectly fine in a non-landscape / non UWA FL setup. 

- A


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## ahsanford (Feb 9, 2017)

Ladislav said:


> Thanks, that is a setup I would like to achieve in the future but I decided to start without CPL to keep the initial investment lower and to decide what CPL I want later.
> 
> May I ask what grads are you using most often?
> 
> As for NiSi - filters "should" be compatible with Lee holder. I would actually expect those filters to be better than Lee resin ones, more scratch resistant, but more fragile. But that is just my assumption. Their holder has exactly design with CPL inside - one reason why I decided that I prefer Lee holder.



Decent overview here (there is a simulator where you can push the filter around to see what happens in the middle of the page):
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/graduated-neutral-density-filters.htm

I have:
2 and 3 stop hard
3 stop soft

It's very simple -- shorelines get hard stops and everything else needs something softer or you'll clip the top of trees/mountains/taller buildings/etc. 

If you are very lucky, your composition might have a consistently straight enough angled skyline that a hard grad can still work in rotated application. Like the Pyramids at Giza. Like a very triangular mountainside. But the real world is rarely so kind and when tough horizons (for grads) need to be involved, you play the cards you can: soft grad vs. rotated hard grad vs. bracketing multiple shots for HDR or manual compositing, etc. As much as it's awesome to get it right in-camera, nature is not always so kind to give us those vistas.

- A


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## slclick (Feb 10, 2017)

Funny how color cast is such an issue but not many folks buy Firecrest. No color cast, amazing clarity and top shelf build. I wonder why they get overlooked?


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## ahsanford (Feb 10, 2017)

slclick said:


> Funny how color cast is such an issue but not many folks buy Firecrest. No color cast, amazing clarity and top shelf build. I wonder why they get overlooked?



Never heard that name until you typed it just now. Formatt / hitech I know, but I didn't know that product line.

Getting started with landscape filters is daunting and confusing -- the principles are simple but the system and its various components is not. So the marketing/education of these products is a big deal than just trying something out and learning. In particular, UWA landscape work is not fun to research as so much of what will block your view varies on the specific components you choose.

Lee was recommended by others and (critically) had a guide to walk me into the system, a comprehensive manual to explain how everything works, a large supply of tutorial videos, etc. 

I can't speak for other systems, but Lee effectively walked me to the counter with information and I gladly gave them my money. I don't regret it, but that doesn't mean another product wouldn't similarly delight me. I am seeing a number of Lee competitors springing up of late, and they have some slick ideas.

- A


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## LDS (Feb 10, 2017)

slclick said:


> Funny how color cast is such an issue but not many folks buy Firecrest. No color cast, amazing clarity and top shelf build. I wonder why they get overlooked?



Probably just because Lee has been around for a longer time and is better known. I got my kit far before e-commerce became common, and made buying stuff you local shops don't know about far easier. For a while here Lee was distributed by Manfrotto- IIRC - and that increased availability. I started using this kind of filters with Cokin in the '80s, which has its issues too - but it was easily available and wasn't expensive.

I prefer not to mix grads and the like from different manufacturers, if the cast and the like are coherent they are easier to remove, when they are not it may become trickier.


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## Ladislav (Feb 10, 2017)

slclick said:


> Funny how color cast is such an issue but not many folks buy Firecrest. No color cast, amazing clarity and top shelf build. I wonder why they get overlooked?



Those Firecrest filters look very good. They are even available from Amazon in UK with very good prices - 10% - 20% more than Lee. I will need to read some reviews. 

Do you also use Firecrest ND? How good is it in protecting ambient light entering the system through sides? Is there any protective (foam?) layer on the edge of ND filter? 

Also it looks like Firecrest grads are available only as soft edge. Any alternative for Hard edge?


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## Ladislav (Feb 10, 2017)

Ladislav said:


> Do you also use Firecrest ND? How good is it in protecting ambient light entering the system through sides? Is there any protective (foam?) layer on the edge of ND filter?



I actually found answer on Formatt-Hitech website:


> Densities of 7 stops and higher also include a foam gasket which can be attached to prevent light leaks.


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## Ladislav (Feb 14, 2017)

I did a lot of reading about filters past few days there is no clear winner. Almost every system has people who praise it and people who hate it. I think the best comments are about Singh-Ray, but that one is not available in UK. 

In case of Lee the most negative comments are about cast of Big Stopper although it should be easy to remove in Lightroom. I would be more concerned if different filters have different cast or if there is heavy cast on grads. Scratching of Lee resins is another complain. 

One complain I found got my attention - someone complained that attaching mechanism of holder to adaptor ring is not strong enough and if you point the lens down with filters in the holder, it can fall off. Is that true?

I was almost considering to simply buy this Formatt-Hitech 100mm Ken Kaminesky Signature Edition Firecrest Master Filter Kit for 77mm lens with holder, CPL, 3 NDs and 2 grads and give it a try. If it couldn't meet expectations I would just return it. Returning one item is quite simple compared to returning a lot of separate items if the whole set does not meet expectations. I just needed to add 82mm wide angle adaptor and I would probably have most than I need to start with. Then I found a comment on Amazon that 82mm wide angle adaptor from Formatt-Hitech is not compatible with 24 TS-E Mk. II. 

Kit: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Formatt-Hitech-Kaminesky-Signature-Firecrest-Master/dp/B00OHN58RG

I'm not sure about combining holder and NDs. To me it looks like ND and holder should be from the same manufacturer to make sure the light is fully prevented from entering lens though sides between holder and filter - the foam gasket must fit correctly.


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## slclick (Feb 14, 2017)

Ladislav said:


> I did a lot of reading about filters past few days there is no clear winner. Almost every system has people who praise it and people who hate it. I think the best comments are about Singh-Ray, but that one is not available in UK.
> 
> In case of Lee the most negative comments are about cast of Big Stopper although it should be easy to remove in Lightroom. I would be more concerned if different filters have different cast or if there is heavy cast on grads. Scratching of Lee resins is another complain.
> 
> ...



I have no issues with a 3rd party holder using various mfg filters, from Fotodiox, to Formatt Hitech to Lee.


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## LDS (Feb 14, 2017)

Ladislav said:


> One complain I found got my attention - someone complained that attaching mechanism of holder to adaptor ring is not strong enough and if you point the lens down with filters in the holder, it can fall off. Is that true?



The Lee holder I have (bought years ago) uses a spring loaded "guillotine" to hold the ring. The "blade" and the ring have a slanted surface to avoid play, and enough pressure can detach the holder, but it never happened to me just pointing the lens down. Maybe if the spring is (or gets) weak, it could happen. Or maybe if the camera is shaken. Probably a tightening screw would be welcome.

The good of the Lee mounting mechanism IMHO is it is easy to mount/unmount the holder without moving the camera inadvertently. For example with the Big Stopper I find easier to remove the holder to compose/focus and then mount the holder with the filter already inserted, than sliding in the filter on the mounted holder because it is really a tight fit. When I was using the Cokin holder which slid over the ring, it was quite easy to move the camera a little, although once mounted, the holder couldn't come off easily.

That said, I usually don't walk with the holder mounted and filters inserted.


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## Ladislav (Apr 3, 2017)

I made the move and bought my initial very limited set:
- Foundation holder
- 82mm Wide adaptor ring
- 17mm TS-E adaptor ring
- Lee Big stopper

My impression so far is that Big stopper really has terrible cast but it can be easily fixed especially if you take a control picture of color card (like color checker passport). 17 TS-E adaptor ring definitely does not give half of the shift range before vignetting appears. I would say third is more realistic but that is still quite good for 100mm system.

I was really considering Formatt Hitech filters or the whole kit but I ended up with Lee because:
- 82mm adaptor ring for Hitech holders does not fit to Canon lenses with 82mm filter thread - I found different complains about 24-70mm Mk.2, 24 TS-E Mk.2, 16-35 Mk.2
- 10 and probably also 13 stop Firecrest ND filters work only for focal length of 50mm or less (it should be acknowledged fault with manufacturing). Above that, pictures get blurred. Other ND filters from Fifrecrest range should work up to 150mm. Not sure what is the limit for Lee.
- Since Firecrest Holder does not need ND filters with foam gasket, foam gasket is provided separately with the filter and I would need to stick it on myself. Based on some comments, it is not that easy as it looks like.


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