# What is everyone's experiences on graduated ND filters?



## neurorx (Apr 4, 2016)

I am looking into purchasing some graduated ND filters and it seems like there is quite a variety out there with significant cost differences. I've read about the color changes etc. I wanted to see if there was anyone actually using the various filters that may give their experience. I would be most commonly using them for sunrise/sets or water scenes. I suspect most commonly on my Canon 16-35mm F2.8L II or 24-70mm F2.8L II. 

These both have 82 mm filter sizes, so do you need another bracket to go to 77mm? 
What filter stop difference is most commonly used 3? 6? 10?
Any other words of wisdom?

Thank you!


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## wtlloyd (Apr 4, 2016)

Lee filter system. You'll buy the 82mm adapter ring (get the wide angle, yes it costs more). You'll need a holder kit. Go to the Lee website, there is a ton of information there both in videos and documents you can download. You want the 100mm system.
You can buy the soft and hard grads in sets of 3. The 6 and 10 stop filters are solid, and 100mm square instead of 4x6.
Have fun! And expect to spend a bout USD $1000 to get fully kitted out!


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## retroreflection (Apr 4, 2016)

If you want grad nd filters, then you either accept the location of the transition set by the manufacturer (standard screw mount filters), or go with a rectangular filter holder so you can position the transition wherever the composition demands it. That's why wtlloyd is basically correct. I wouldn't presume to dictate a brand, as I have been happy with Cokin holders. I have a mix of filter brands in the actual rectangular bits.

For sunrise & sunset use, consider reverse grads. These filters have a zone of no attenuation, a sharp transition to the highest level, and then a soft transition to the other edge. This let's you maximize the effect at the sun and horizon. Not so many cheap options for this type, but what can you do?


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## GuyF (Apr 4, 2016)

Lee filters are very good but are also very expensive. Their website shows plenty of examples to help guide your choice. http://www.leefilters.com/

If you can't afford Lee, there are plenty of other manufacturers to choose from. Some filters have a colourcast but that can be remedied in Photoshop by adjusting the colour temperature of the scene.

I used Cokin filters for years which are pretty cheap and good value but decided to go for improved quality with Lee.


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## GMCPhotographics (Apr 4, 2016)

neurorx said:


> I am looking into purchasing some graduated ND filters and it seems like there is quite a variety out there with significant cost differences. I've read about the color changes etc. I wanted to see if there was anyone actually using the various filters that may give their experience. I would be most commonly using them for sunrise/sets or water scenes. I suspect most commonly on my Canon 16-35mm F2.8L II or 24-70mm F2.8L II.
> 
> These both have 82 mm filter sizes, so do you need another bracket to go to 77mm?
> What filter stop difference is most commonly used 3? 6? 10?
> ...



In my opinion, I would get a set of solid ND filters , 3/6/9 stop 82mm threads. Then shoot using a tripod and use the heavier filter for the sky and a lite filter for the foreground and then blend the two in photoshop using a big soft brush. naturally, your metering will dictate your filter choices. 
The problems with ND grads is the transition line is often unhelpful, the thickness of the transition line is also not quite what you want. I find that regardless of the quality of the filter, there is always a colour cast. So choose one that's nice and leaves a nice rendering. These filters should be called Neutral (yeah right!) density filters. The higher the density, the higher the colour cast. 

This image taken in 2008 used a 9 stop Hoya filter which has a noticeable colour cast...which during a sunrise produces some really nice colours:


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## Neil1000 (Apr 4, 2016)

hello,

soft and hard edge Lee 1.2 and 0.9 grads might be the most useful, Add 0.6 soft and hard grads later. 0.3 can be handled in photoshop even by lowly DR Canon cameras. In fact with a great set of Lee filters and the great canon autobracket options I am puzzled why DR has even been an issue for canon cameras


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## Click (Apr 4, 2016)

GMCPhotographics said:


> This image taken in 2008 used a 9 stop Hoya filter which has a noticeable colour cast...which during a sunrise produces some really nice colours:



Lovely. Beautiful colours. 8)


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## YellowJersey (Apr 5, 2016)

Graduated ND filters were the best thing I ever bought after I discovered UWA on full frame. 

I use the Lee system and have the .3, .6, and .9 filters in soft and hard grad. It's a fair bit of coin to get all of them, but I find the .9 soft grad is by far my most used. Truth be told, I find I don't use the .3 that much, I really only use it if the .9 isn't enough and I need to double up but the .6 would be too much. 

Just a word of warning: do not stack filters one on top of another. Give each a little sleeve of its own. (I made this mistake once when I had to clear out of a location in a big hurry, find my .9 soft and hard grad filters pretty scraped and scuffed).


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## slclick (Apr 5, 2016)

I use a cheap 3rd party holder and premium 100x 100 or 100 x 150 filters such as Formatt. This is based on the Cokin P series. Great for lenses up to an 82mm filter size. My favorite is an 8 stop as I find 10 a bit much to work with except in the most ideal situations and 3 stop. I can combine them (because the glass is so awesome- as opposed to resin) and get a whopping 11. The frames don't mean a thing, spend your money on the filters, they tend to be like tripods, we usually all start out with cheap and then buy more and more expensive models and ask ourselves why we didn't buy the good one in the first place.


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## neurorx (Apr 6, 2016)

Thank you All for the recommendations and advice on use. For the Lee filters if one wants to have 82 mm and 77 mm capability, does one need to get two mounting brackets or is there an insert for the 82 mm?

Is it customary to get both soft and hard ND filters? What about non-graduated, solid ND filters?


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## J.R. (Apr 6, 2016)

neurorx said:


> Thank you All for the recommendations and advice on use. For the Lee filters if one wants to have 82 mm and 77 mm capability, does one need to get two mounting brackets or is there an insert for the 82 mm?
> 
> Is it customary to get both soft and hard ND filters? What about non-graduated, solid ND filters?



The Lee Filter assembly fits onto the adapter ring. I have both the 77mm as well as the 82mm adapter rings and have never tried using the larger adapter ring on a smaller threaded lens, but it could be done I guess. 

The grads, you'll need the hard graduated filters only when shooting with a straight horizon, for everything else, go for the soft grad. 

I find myself using the grad filters less and less given that using grad filters in lightroom is much quicker and easier. That being said, the grad filters have their place in some circumstances. 

For solid NDs there is a whole lot of choice there. Personally, I have the Big Stopper which I use a good deal, as well as the 3/6/9 cheap film pack from Lee which are used only rarely.


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## ERHP (Apr 6, 2016)

I've been using the Lee .6 and .9 Hard graduated filters for shots of the beach and waves crashing into the cliffs using mainly the 24-70. If you have the double holder(or even triple) you can stack the filters, plus you have the options for using the Lee Big/Little Stoppers, polarizers, etc. You can swap the adapter ring from 82-77-etc or buy multiple foundation kits. LeeFilters.com has some videos showcasing the use of most of the filters which may be helpful.

This was with a .6 Hard on a 24-70 II/5DSR.




1/13 : f/10 : ISO 160 @24mm


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## neurorx (Apr 6, 2016)

These are incredible photo's! Thank you!


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## jprusa (Apr 6, 2016)

I use Singh-Ray Reverse Graduated Neutral Density Filter , I like those better than the lee filters. You can get the holder and the adaptor rings for a lot less from the filter dude on eBay. I find that I use a 4 stop filter most of the time.


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## Aglet (Apr 6, 2016)

I love ND grads... IN SOFTWARE.

NDGs were great in film days, and I was considering getting a set as they are still useful for digital when you have the time to set them up.

But I like to shoot my landscapes _faster_... So I picked cameras that could give me maximum useful dynamic range, expose so the highlites aren't clipped. or clipped where I want them to be, then in post I can apply any kind of NDG filter I can imagine. FAR more versatile, MUCH more control.
I don't know why anyone would want to bother with using physical filters any more, other than an interesting challenge or hobby. Or perhaps you're using a more limited useful dynamic range camera, like, uhm... Canon.


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## J.R. (Apr 6, 2016)

Aglet said:


> I love ND grads... IN SOFTWARE.
> 
> NDGs were great in film days, and I was considering getting a set as they are still useful for digital when you have the time to set them up.
> 
> ...



Most landscapes require more DR than any Sony / Nikon / Canon sensor can handle. In such a scenario, the best you can do is either blend exposures as GMC suggested above or use grads. Those additional 2 stops of an exmor sensor isn't the be all and end all. 

To say graduated filters don't have their place in photography because you can lift shadows in post is simply absurd.


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## GMCPhotographics (Apr 6, 2016)

Click said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > This image taken in 2008 used a 9 stop Hoya filter which has a noticeable colour cast...which during a sunrise produces some really nice colours:
> ...



Thank you! 
If you are going to have to live with a could caste...then make it one that's attractive


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## GMCPhotographics (Apr 6, 2016)

J.R. said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > I love ND grads... IN SOFTWARE.
> ...



I would agree with you JR. My earlier shot could have been taken with one shot and then pulled...but it would have been noisy. This particular shot was three exposures blended together which were all shot at 100 iso. This image was taken with a Canon 5Dmk1 and it is noise free and I have an A1+ of this on my wall. It scrutinizes up close, detailed everywhere...no noise while the colours are vivd and the contrast is heavy.
Every camera produces noise if pushed...I'd rather have my balanced image shot bright and at 100 iso. I can dial in moody darks later. 
For weddings where I'm going to be around for the sun set, ND grads are nice for faster work. I can balance the light in one exposure but for my landscape work, I get far better results with the exposure blend technique. The only problem is where there's movement in the blend line.


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## j-nord (Apr 6, 2016)

Aglet said:


> I love ND grads... IN SOFTWARE.
> 
> NDGs were great in film days, and I was considering getting a set as they are still useful for digital when you have the time to set them up.
> 
> ...


In general yes but, what about water/cloud/people smoothing? It seems ND still has a place there.


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## Aglet (Apr 7, 2016)

j-nord said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > I love ND grads... IN SOFTWARE.
> ...



They certainly do, and i still use them for such. But that's to increase exposure time, not to create a _gradient_ exposure effect. I think you may have confused ND with ND-grad.


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## Aglet (Apr 7, 2016)

J.R. said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > I love ND grads... IN SOFTWARE.
> ...



your argument is mostly void since the 2 to 4 stop advantage provided by ABC cameras is exactly the amount typically used in ND-grads to achieve the desired effect in single-exposures.
I didn't say ABC could capture so vastly much more DR; I AM stating that the advantage they offer negates using ND grads in the field, and provides more editing latitude, period.
When you start shooting with an 80D (or ABC) you'll see what I mean.
Want more?.. Add an NDG to a single exposure shot with an ABC camera and you've got the equivalent of a fairly wide bracketed series on a Canon. I'm pretty sure you do understand this and how it can be an advantage in the field.


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## d (Apr 7, 2016)

GMCPhotographics said:


> This image taken in 2008 used a 9 stop Hoya filter which has a noticeable colour cast...which during a sunrise produces some really nice colours:



Would that be Lake Bled?

Really nice shot!

d.


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## j-nord (Apr 7, 2016)

Aglet said:


> j-nord said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...


 I overlooked where you specifically referenced grads in which case I agree. 

It's definitely feasible to "extend" exposure via multiple exposures+post but not sure it's necessarily better/easier yet.


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## J.R. (Apr 7, 2016)

Aglet said:


> your argument is mostly void since the 2 to 4 stop advantage provided by ABC cameras is exactly the amount typically used in ND-grads to achieve the desired effect in single-exposures.
> I didn't say ABC could capture so vastly much more DR; I AM stating that the advantage they offer negates using ND grads in the field, and provides more editing latitude, period.
> When you start shooting with an 80D (or ABC) you'll see what I mean.
> Want more?.. Add an NDG to a single exposure shot with an ABC camera and you've got the equivalent of a fairly wide bracketed series on a Canon. I'm pretty sure you do understand this and how it can be an advantage in the field.



Well, you were the one who said this - 



Aglet said:


> I don't know why anyone would want to bother with using physical filters any more, other than an interesting challenge or hobby. Or perhaps you're using a more limited useful dynamic range camera, like, uhm... Canon.



As I correctly pointed out, to make this generalization is quite simply, ludicrous. I shoot many a time in high contrast scenes with stacked GNDs. The single RAW taken with the stacked GNDs in place gives much more latitude in post than simply a higher DR camera ever would. Blending multiple exposures is a possibility but it takes much more time sitting in front of the computer.

That being said, the OP wasn't asking advice on a higher DR camera, the question was about the experience on using GNDs and you were the one who brought DR into the discussion. 

GNDs have their place in landscape photography - just because you find them useless doesn't mean they are useless. 

BTW, have you shot with the 80D or are just relying on internet chatter? I wouldn't know having pre-ordered the 1DX2 (which should be substantially better than the 80D).I doubt even with the 1DX2, I'll be giving up on my GNDs any time soon.


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## J.R. (Apr 7, 2016)

GMCPhotographics said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...



I find it more time consuming blending shots and rely on using GNDs for my landscape work. The color casts are a problem but I find them easier to work around or live with. 

Things are changing with the 11-24 though, the extremely wide AOV creates high-contrast situations for which filter solutions don't exist. As a consequence, I am using the Kodak Wratten gel solid ND filters and blend multiple exposures to get the look I need.


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## Aglet (Apr 8, 2016)

It's preposterous to call it ludicrous. 
A higher DR camera using software GND effects is a perfectly viable option that's quick, easy, effective and versatile.
It's an option worth considering.
And I don't care to be blending brackets either, too tedious and fraught with issues for non-static scenes.



> That being said, the OP wasn't asking advice on a higher DR camera, the question was about the experience on using GNDs and you were the one who brought DR into the discussion.


dat's cuz itz a relevant option



> GNDs have their place in landscape photography - just because you find them useless doesn't mean they are useless.



I'm not (completely) disagreeing with you. They're certainly a good solution for many situations. It's just that they are not as fast or flexible as what I've suggested. I might even use one sometimes. But in most situations, I don't need to because I can utilize the software option to adequate effect.



> BTW, have you shot with the 80D or are just relying on internet chatter?


I'm relying on posted samples showing that it appears to have a greater usable DR by virtue of its reduced low ISO pattern noise which afflicts most other Canon DSLRs.



> I wouldn't know having pre-ordered the 1DX2 (which should be substantially better than the 80D).I doubt even with the 1DX2, I'll be giving up on my GNDs any time soon.



you have more patience than i to utilize them.
and good on you if you like the results.
IF the 1DX2 has more usable DR you'll get an extra boost in post from the NDG use.

So, to clarify something you mentioned above...
How many NDGs do you _stack_ in some shots?


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## Aglet (Apr 8, 2016)

J.R. said:


> Things are changing with the 11-24 though, the extremely wide AOV creates high-contrast situations for which filter solutions don't exist. As a consequence, I am using the Kodak Wratten gel solid ND filters and blend multiple exposures to get the look I need.



for which no _hardware_ filters exist, but software GND is, again, more versatile if you can't find a filter system to fit a bulging UWA lens. Do your brackets and work the GNDs into post. You have more control, more options.
you don't HAVE to do everything the hard way.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 8, 2016)

Aglet said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Things are changing with the 11-24 though, the extremely wide AOV creates high-contrast situations for which filter solutions don't exist. As a consequence, I am using the Kodak Wratten gel solid ND filters and blend multiple exposures to get the look I need.
> ...



Wrong, there are at least two hardware solutions that allow unrestricted use of the lens at full zoom and with multiple filters with zero vignetting, the Fotodiox Wonderpana XL and the NISI 180 systems.

Personally I don't use grads I blend, on the occasions I can't get the DR I need then another couple of stops wouldn't make a difference asI am normally five or six stops out, but more importantly, I never, ever, have a straight line that works for the grad, I shoot interiors and need the exterior view included and windows don't often split the entire frame!

Having said that I do use the Wonderpana on my TS-E 17 and will be getting the XL for my 11-24, but only to use with the CPL, there is no software solution to deal with reflections in water, countertops etc etc.


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## J.R. (Apr 8, 2016)

@pbd - are you using a CPL with the 11-24? 

off-topic, I know - please bear with me.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 8, 2016)

J.R. said:


> @pbd - are you using a CPL with the 11-24?
> 
> off-topic, I know - please bear with me.



Not yet, I have been out of the country since the Wonderpana became available and I am not returning for another three weeks, but I'll get one soon after getting back.

I do use the smaller (145mm) Wonderpana CPL on the TS-E 17 shifted, which gives a similar fov to the 11-24. But my use is pretty specific, taking reflections off swimming pools and water features and controlling reflections in counter tops and the like.


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## Hector1970 (Apr 10, 2016)

If you are into landscape photography I'd highly recommend graduated ND filters.
I have found the soft graduated to be much more useful than hard grads.
I don't run into too many examples of completely flat horizons with nothing interfering with the clean line where I am located. Hard grads can show up if you don't have that clean horizon.
As for brands. That's a bit tricky.
LEE are very good but very expensive. The scratch quite easily. I've found over (a long) time the filters get very distressed looking and it can impact the shot. 
Formatt- HiTech are now very good. Their ND filters are very good the Firecrest ones (also expensive) have very good colour neutrality. Their graduated filters are good too. 
I know lots of people with Cokin filters and are very happy with them. 
It can be a big financial layout. Best of luck with your choices.


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## slclick (Apr 10, 2016)

Hector1970 said:


> If you are into landscape photography I'd highly recommend graduated ND filters.
> I have found the soft graduated to be much more useful than hard grads.
> I don't run into too many examples of completely flat horizons with nothing interfering with the clean line where I am located. Hard grads can show up if you don't have that clean horizon.
> As for brands. That's a bit tricky.
> ...



Hard grads are great in desert and sea scenes.


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## Hector1970 (Apr 10, 2016)

I"m definately lacking desert. In fact its like a hurricane outside at the moment, rain, rain, rain ;D
I must go to a desert some day and get proper use out of my hard grads.


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## kphoto99 (Apr 11, 2016)

Hector1970 said:


> I"m definately lacking desert. In fact its like a hurricane outside at the moment, rain, rain, rain ;D
> I must go to a desert some day and get proper use out of my hard grads.



With enough rain you will be able to use your hard grads in the sea, no need to go to the desert ;-)


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## trstromme (Apr 11, 2016)

Hi having shot a bit with graduated filters I want to offer the following experiences.
First off all, you want the square ones, to properly position the filter vertically. Yes the 'horizon in the middle'-look can be OK, but not always, it's about the added flexibility that square filters offer you.

Second, filter holders, yes, absolutely very practical for repeated exposures. 
Absolutely necessary, no. You can easily handhold filters in front of the lens, but you need to make sure they're perpendicular to the center of the sensor/lens or you'll get exaggerated colour casts. Can be a bit challenging with long exposures.

Lee, Cokin, Formatt Hitech.. I don't want to add to the discussion about sharpness or quality too much. What I'll say though is that properly used they offer you the ability to do more in-camera, saving on PP work. Some vendors have styles of filter not available from others, like reverse ND grads, sharper grads etc. Being from Norway where you often end up at the bottom of a valley with mountains sticking up at the sides I'd love to see some that have a slight U-shape to the darkening effect though.
(At least the ability to bend a linear grad (I suppose it wouldn't be linear though) with control points in Lightroom is certainly on top of my list for desired features, but I suppose it is a bit of a detour from the topic here..)

If you're shooting in with multi second exposures you can forego linear grads entirely, and at the same time avoid a lot of the colour cast. (though in some situations the cast is desired because it helps you get vividly saturated red skies for sunsets etc.)
Often when I'm out shooting I bring a piece of dark cloth, or wear a dark jacket. When getting an exposure I can cover parts of the lens before slowly moving my forearm upwards to gradually reveal the scene. This requires a few practice shots, but when successful I'm able to pull off an exposure that nicely captures the scene with a balanced sky and foreground.
These are examples of where I used this technique:



Urban Jungle by Trond Strømme, on Flickr
and 



Misty Forest by Trond Strømme, on Flickr


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## Aglet (Apr 13, 2016)

trstromme said:


> Hi having shot a bit with graduated filters I want to offer the following experiences.
> First off all, you want the square ones, to properly position the filter vertically. Yes the 'horizon in the middle'-look can be OK, but not always, it's about the added flexibility that square filters offer you.
> 
> Second, filter holders, yes, absolutely very practical for repeated exposures.
> ...



I like your blackarm external shutter GND equivalent technique; it has it applications and looks like it can provide quite good results.


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## K-amps (Apr 14, 2016)

Hi Guys, can you share your experiences with stacking ND's? 

e.g. 10 + 5 stopper stacked vs single 15 stopper. I already own the first two and buying a 15 stopper (NISI 150mm square ND ) will cost between $180-200, and I don't make money off this hobby, so it has to be thought through.

The NISI's have rubber gaskets, so there is no light leak between 2 stacked filters. However there might be some flare, or inconsistent color cast... (consistent cast is easy to fix in post, but not inconsistent) that's possible.

Any other thoughts?


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## Ladislav (Apr 14, 2016)

Thanks for pointing me to NiSi. Any experience with NiSi? How these filters compare to LEE? I'm especially interested in ND grads as glass from NiSi is mostly for the same price as resin from LEE. They also offer reverse grad not available from LEE. 

I still didn't buy LEE ND grads but I was almost about to start slowly with the LEE holder, little stopper and 3 stops soft grad but now I almost think that going for NiSi grad could be a better option.

Update: As I read about NiSi more I may even go for NiSi V5 holder instead of LEE. I like the design.


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## surapon (Apr 14, 2016)

neurorx said:


> I am looking into purchasing some graduated ND filters and it seems like there is quite a variety out there with significant cost differences. I've read about the color changes etc. I wanted to see if there was anyone actually using the various filters that may give their experience. I would be most commonly using them for sunrise/sets or water scenes. I suspect most commonly on my Canon 16-35mm F2.8L II or 24-70mm F2.8L II.
> 
> These both have 82 mm filter sizes, so do you need another bracket to go to 77mm?
> What filter stop difference is most commonly used 3? 6? 10?
> ...



Dear friend Mr. Neurorx.
Yes, I try to shoot all of my Photos as best as possible in the Camera, With Minimum Time of Post Processing by Photoshop---Yes, I need a lot of Help from Coklin Creative Filter System ( Made in France).
AND IT's Work great too.
Good luck to you.
Surapon


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## surapon (Apr 14, 2016)

Yes, I try to shoot all of my Photos as best as possible in the Camera, With Minimum Time of Post Processing by Photoshop---Yes, I need a lot of Help from Coklin Creative Filter System ( Made in France).
AND IT's Work great too.
Good luck to you.
Surapon


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## Hector1970 (Apr 19, 2016)

Interesting background piece of paper Surapon.
Are trying to break into or break out of Franklin County Detention centre.
You seem to have the blueprints. 




surapon said:


> neurorx said:
> 
> 
> > I am looking into purchasing some graduated ND filters and it seems like there is quite a variety out there with significant cost differences. I've read about the color changes etc. I wanted to see if there was anyone actually using the various filters that may give their experience. I would be most commonly using them for sunrise/sets or water scenes. I suspect most commonly on my Canon 16-35mm F2.8L II or 24-70mm F2.8L II.
> ...


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