# Canon or Nikon...



## PhilDrinkwater (Apr 23, 2012)

So, this isn't a Canon vs. Nikon thread. It's about cameras doing a job for you and understanding what that job really is.

I'm primarily a wedding photographer ( http://www.phildweddingphotography.co.uk ) and have been looking at what my next camera will be. I did originally look at a 1dx but the 5d3 was starting to look more interesting to me given the silent shutter and ISO performance. So I rented one for the weekend.

Playing around inside with ISO performance and focus tests I satisfied myself that I was happy with ISO6400 and 12800 at a push. The shutter sound on silent is amazing and UK churches are getting more and more funny about photographers. That's a real win for me.

So then I took it outdoors and found that, in the viewfinder, you can't see the red flash on an AF point when it's focussed! That's a serious issue for me. If I'm outdoors and shooting some group photographs, I need to know the camera has focussed and I don't like to use beep all of the time. This has been reported by people on various forums.

At that point, for me, Canon have made a serious error. It's then I started to look seriously at Nikon for the first time in years. I was looking at the options: d800 has 50mb files  d3s is only 12mp  d4 is very expensive if I'm going to have to rebuy lots of stuff and will have a loud shutter  d700 is a bit old now 

While I was doing this I realised that there's a mode where the AF point can disappear when it's achieved focus. <phew> It's not a perfect solution, but it'll do. (although I am going to get in touch with Canon to point this issue out).

The reason for posting this? All of the DR tests and so on that get done are, to me, much less relevant than the overall look of a photo I receive and the 50mm 1.2 and warm, attractive tones and white balance that I receive. When I was thinking of moving to Nikon it was those which made me not want to move. I wasn't thinking "Yay - I can get cleaner shadows" or whatever.

With all of the discussion about sensors and so on it's important to remember that *it's only important if you'll be using it*. However, if I moved to Nikon I would lose some of the things that do really matter to me and I still think the 5d3 is the best overall wedding photography camera on the market.

So, when people are saying "is the Canon better at anything" my answer is a clear "Yes!" and they are features which make a difference to me.

While I was playing around, I also took a few photos with the camera - no weddings, but just some nice flowers around the block:


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## Fishnose (Apr 23, 2012)

Shutter sound is a clincher. You won't get anywhere near the 5D3 silent shutter with say a D800. 

No contest.


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## PhilDrinkwater (Apr 23, 2012)

Fishnose said:


> Shutter sound is a clincher. You won't get anywhere near the 5D3 silent shutter with say a D800.
> 
> No contest.



Indeed. Even if it was just as quiet as the 5d2 it'd still be the camera for me though. In theory it has the most accurate focussing system (really important) and the 50mm 1.2 and warm tones are just what I want 

If anyone hasn't heard it, check it out http://youtu.be/LGAggFtTo7A


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## Orion (Apr 23, 2012)

*CANON ALL THE WAY. . . *  

http://fstoppers.com/video-canon-5dm3-5dm2-and-nikon-d800-low-light-video-test

BEST ALL ROUND camera this side of the universe. . . heck I can't see ANY 95 in the Nikon example . . . . only in the Canon.


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## zim (Apr 23, 2012)

PhilDrinkwater said:


> So then I took it outdoors and found that, in the viewfinder, you can't see the red flash on an AF point when it's focussed! That's a serious issue for me.



Does that mean doesn't display at all or it's just not bright enough? If you are shifting focus point then how do you see which point is selected other than use the back panel and menu? I don't have one (obviously) hence the question. Still saving.... it's going to be a long year :-\

+1 all the other points you make and love the tones in the first tree piccy - but waiting on all the 'put the lens cap on' quips to solve the focus point issue you have


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## DavidRiesenberg (Apr 23, 2012)

You can set the illumination of the AF points to ON instead of AUTO and then it will always illuminate instead of only when it's dark


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## sach100 (Apr 23, 2012)

Orion said:


> *CANON ALL THE WAY. . . *
> 
> http://fstoppers.com/video-canon-5dm3-5dm2-and-nikon-d800-low-light-video-test
> 
> BEST ALL ROUND camera this side of the universe. . . heck I can't see ANY 95 in the Nikon example . . . . only in the Canon.



That test demonstrates that a certain N camera got *D*estroyed *800* times over and over!
but yeah some would argue it's *just* the low light video part..


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## NormanBates (Apr 23, 2012)

yes, in video mode, the 5D3 is a lot better than the D800*

we'll soon see if that's enough for Canon...



* in video mode, the only area in which the D800 can beat the 5D3 is in DR (12.7 vs 11.5 stops); but with its ugly moire/aliasing, it's just a small-niche camera for video shooters, the 5D3 would be a lot better
then again, the BMC is also cheaper than the 5D3... the sensor is smaller, but I think it leaves the 5D3 as a niche camera too


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## RLPhoto (Apr 23, 2012)

Canon! Because it's not Nikon! Lol JK. 

No really, it's far too expensive to go full frame on a Nikon system. The minimum is the d700 and that's still 2000$. A 5dc is like 700$.


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## PhilDrinkwater (Apr 23, 2012)

zim said:


> Does that mean doesn't display at all or it's just not bright enough? If you are shifting focus point then how do you see which point is selected other than use the back panel and menu? I don't have one (obviously) hence the question. Still saving.... it's going to be a long year :-\


Just not bright enough... it's been commented on a lot on another forum 

You can see the AF points when they're black, just not when they're red.


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## PhilDrinkwater (Apr 23, 2012)

DavidRiesenberg said:


> You can set the illumination of the AF points to ON instead of AUTO and then it will always illuminate instead of only when it's dark


Yes, I know. The red is too weak to be seen when outdoors  I went through every option and didn't see a "brighten red" anywhere?


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## Neeneko (Apr 23, 2012)

sach100 said:


> That test demonstrates that a certain N camera got *D*estroyed *800* times over and over!
> but yeah some would argue it's *just* the low light video part..



Well, yes, just like people complain that the DXO tests do not take low light into account enough. That test was low light video, a use case that many people will have, and many people will not. Both are good cameras, both have strengths and weaknesses, both have slightly different target audiences, and with both cameras 90% of the time/users would not actually get any functionally different behavior out of them because the strengths and weaknesses are both pretty incremental for most use cases.


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## caMARYnon (Apr 23, 2012)

Orion said:


> *CANON ALL THE WAY. . . *
> 
> http://fstoppers.com/video-canon-5dm3-5dm2-and-nikon-d800-low-light-video-test
> 
> BEST ALL ROUND camera this side of the universe. . . heck I can't see ANY 95 in the Nikon example . . . . only in the Canon.



Wow, mark 2 shines in comparison with the D800 at high iso video... and mark 3 is by far the winner.


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## Orion (Apr 23, 2012)

Itès like I said . . the Nikon is MADE TO bring out detail in the shadows specifically. WHen the D800 is put in video mode we see that even more since the sensor becomes bare video and loses that stills level 'delicateness' when dealing with shadows. The Canon was not engineered that way, so it will lose out on 'bias' DR tests, hence why a DxO screo of 95 v 81. I am not totally sure, but I bet yu can get more highlight detail from a Canon over a Nikon, since Canon seems to have a highlight bias instead of shadows. . . of course NOTHIN on poar with MF haha.


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## te4o (Apr 24, 2012)

Phil, how comes you can't see the AF points in daylight? They are not red, they are black! And appear quite nicely on the VF if you push around the Multicontroller or anything associated with AF. I did register AF points in Landscape and two Portrait modes (left and right handed) - they are constantly blinking no matter where the active AF point is, so I can always see them and reach them with one push AF-ON. Even Metering goes there when you set * to AF+Meter. 
I just received my new 135/2 today: glad to stay with the 5D3 and this lens, Sigma 85 coming tomorrow... Cheers


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## PhilDrinkwater (Apr 24, 2012)

te4o said:


> Phil, how comes you can't see the AF points in daylight? They are not red, they are black! And appear quite nicely on the VF if you push around the Multicontroller or anything associated with AF. I did register AF points in Landscape and two Portrait modes (left and right handed) - they are constantly blinking no matter where the active AF point is, so I can always see them and reach them with one push AF-ON. Even Metering goes there when you set * to AF+Meter.
> I just received my new 135/2 today: glad to stay with the 5D3 and this lens, Sigma 85 coming tomorrow... Cheers



Sorry if I miscommunicated this. I can see the AF points. I just can't see the red "confirmation" flash in good light.

I got a 135/2 too


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## Fishnose (Apr 24, 2012)

sach100 said:


> Orion said:
> 
> 
> > *CANON ALL THE WAY. . . *
> ...



Really? 
How about trying what I tried, since it's obvious the light levels are very different in the 3 videos stacked on top of each other. 

Run the video twice side by side, stop one video at ISO 800 and look at the D800. Let the other video run until the 5D3 comes up to the same level of light as the D800 has in the paused video. 
What do you see? You need at least a full ISO stop to get the same amount of light.
Which means the D800 is being disadvantaged in this 'test' by a whole stop at least when you get to higher ISO levels, and of course you'll have more noise etc. Makes the 'test' rather pointless. 
Or it means the 5D cameras is running way lower ISOs than they claim to be running.

Also, it appears that Canon has NR on and Nikjon has NR off. So the comparison is even more pointless.
Pity they couldn't do it properly when they did it at all. As the guy says who did it, "only had the cameras for a short time". Maybe he just doesn't know how to set them up exactly the same. Menu systems can be such a drag....


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## bycostello (Apr 24, 2012)

i've seen a lot of people upset about the focusing points....


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## psolberg (Apr 24, 2012)

Fishnose said:


> sach100 said:
> 
> 
> > Orion said:
> ...



Yes something is going on. Either canon overstates the ISO true value or Nikon understates it. Thus although the canon has some advantage, at equivalent exposure the Nikon is at 1 to two stops brighter. Which means the canon needs to boost 2 stops to match it. So ISO 800 on Nikon is about 3200 on the 5d3 to get the same image. The real advantage of the mk3 is hard to measure then.

However the Mk 3 detail is so mushy, it does get killed for daytime shooting :|
nikon 422 hdmi out just blows it out of the water.


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## awinphoto (Apr 24, 2012)

psolberg said:


> Fishnose said:
> 
> 
> > sach100 said:
> ...



For what it's worth, according to the almighty DxO ISO sensitivity, for Nikon D800 and Canon 5d3, the 5d3 is closer to the norm than the D800 is...

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/795|0/%28brand%29/Canon/%28appareil2%29/792|0/%28brand2%29/Nikon

Cant quite figure out why it's so bright unless something wasn't quite equal.


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## Fishnose (Apr 24, 2012)

psolberg said:


> Yes something is going on. Either canon overstates the ISO true value or Nikon understates it. Thus although the canon has some advantage, at equivalent exposure the Nikon is at 1 to two stops brighter. Which means the canon needs to boost 2 stops to match it. So ISO 800 on Nikon is about 3200 on the 5d3 to get the same image. The real advantage of the mk3 is hard to measure then.
> 
> However the Mk 3 detail is so mushy, it does get killed for daytime shooting :|
> nikon 422 hdmi out just blows it out of the water.



Not only that - I just looked at it on a really big, very well color-balanced monitor. The 5D3 is positively pink in comparison to the D800 (most obvious on the cards to the right). Either the guys doing the test missed setting WB properly, or the lighting changed in between, or the 5D3 is seriously pink in these conditions - which I kind of doubt.


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## preppyak (Apr 24, 2012)

Fishnose said:


> Not only that - I just looked at it on a really big, very well color-balanced monitor. The 5D3 is positively pink in comparison to the D800 (most obvious on the cards to the right). Either the guys doing the test missed setting WB properly, or the lighting changed in between, or the 5D3 is seriously pink in these conditions - which I kind of doubt.


I'm seeing the same thing, the Nikon has a slight yellow tinge (barely noticeable) and the Canon is really pink. And I agree about NR being on in the Canon cameras, I've seen 5dii video at those higher iso levels, and it isn't that clean.

That said, the mechanics of the cameras does make sense of Canon to be much better in low-light video. The video size, etc is better for downsampling


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## psolberg (Apr 24, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> psolberg said:
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> 
> > Fishnose said:
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DXO mark measures still images NOT video. It is clear that setting both cameras at ISO X, the nikon is brighter meaning one of the cameras is NOT reporting the ISO sensitivity correctly. As to which one it is, one would have to take a control camera, like a 5DmkII or D3s and repeat the test. I suspect nikon goofed off and what they report as ISO800 is really much higher...which is silly of them because this makes them look worse than they actually are on these candlelight tests. It can also seriously screw with your exposure if you use an external meter.


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## awinphoto (Apr 24, 2012)

psolberg said:


> awinphoto said:
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> > psolberg said:
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The 5d2 was used in that test and looks similar to the 5d3 in terms of brightness but noisier... Of course if the 5d2 didn't report the ISO the same either, as you suggest may be happening in part by one, both, or all cameras, then we may never know unless we base them off of a still sample which should be pretty darn close within 1/3 of a stop. I dont know why they wouldn't use the still's ISO sensitivity levels, but i'm not an engineer or video guy so doesn't bug me either way.


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