# Professional (semi-professional) sporting events and the use of flash...



## jdramirez (Aug 21, 2014)

It really isn't that big of a deal. I was at a AA baseball game and I was using my 5Dmkiii @ iso 3200ish, 1/1250ish, and my 600ex-rt on body. I was taking photos throughout the game from the stands... literally in my seat and in the 6th inning I'm requested by an employee of the team to kill the flash. The guy was nice enough and polite enough, so I'm really not complaining about being asked to kill the flash.

I suppose my question is... do yall just kick up the iso and live with the results in lieu of using flash at sporting events? Considering it is semi-pro... and if 6 o'clock is right behind the catcher, I would say that I was at 7 o'clock... maybe 7:30ish... It just seems like they should be able to deal with the noise and one lone flash... though this is their profession... and if one at bat leads to 5 runs and a significant bump up in their ERA... so they DON'T get the call up to the pro's... so I understand this specific circumstance... 

I will say it gave me an opportunity to force myself to shoot at iso 12800 which I never do... so I guess that's a sliver lining.


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## Jim Saunders (Aug 21, 2014)

I suppose the ideal case there is two flashes well off to the sides and remote triggering for them, but under the given circumstances winding the ISO up and giving up a notch of shutter speed might be all you can do. :-/

Jim


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## jdramirez (Aug 21, 2014)

Jim Saunders said:


> I suppose the ideal case there is two flashes well off to the sides and remote triggering for them, but under the given circumstances winding the ISO up and giving up a notch of shutter speed might be all you can do. :-/
> 
> Jim



I'm not 100% sure it was the pitcher... it might have been... because they were my focus... but it very well could have been the 2nd basemen... heck a 3rd basemen wouldn't like it with the flash going off in his periphery... so I'm of the opinion that all flash would be persona non-grata... though what I would love is to be behind the net just off to one side or the other of the catcher with 4 satellite flash, 2 hanging from the foul netting pointing towards the pitcher, with another 2 in the dugout... but that's just me playing with the idea of fully lighting my subject.


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## jdramirez (Aug 21, 2014)

The last photo of the bunch is at iso 10000... so definitely more than I normally push it... but is it REALLY that much worse than the iso 4000's... meh.


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## Jim Saunders (Aug 21, 2014)

Looks like it is time to beg the better half for a 200 f/2. Good luck. 

Jim


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## jdramirez (Aug 21, 2014)

Jim Saunders said:


> Looks like it is time to beg the better half for a 200 f/2. Good luck.
> 
> Jim



I was shooting @ f/4 with a 1.4 teleconvertor... I have a hankerin' to buy a 300mm f/2.8L (first generation), but that still doesn't help me with my light issue.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 21, 2014)

Your options are: 200mm f2 IS or 1DX :


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## bseitz234 (Aug 21, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> and if one at bat leads to 5 runs



The most runs that can result from one at-bat is 4... just saying :

If it were _me_ in that situation, I probably would have brought a camera, taken the pictures I could while there was enough light, and once the sun was down, put the camera down, grabbed a grilled sausage (it looks like the Seadogs were the visiting team, but at their home field, there is an amazing brew pavilion. Great beer, great food), and enjoyed the game. 

I think if you really want better pictures from the stands, you have a few options: slow your shutter a bit, get some motion blur in the pitcher's arm, but mostly have a sharp shot that captures the speed and motion of the pitching; ditch the 1.4x, open up to 2.8, and crop later; bump your ISO and accept some grain, but have a nice sharp image; accept that you're going to have to get a divorce, and go with the 200/2 (or better, 200 1.8) on a 1dx. ;D


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## jdramirez (Aug 21, 2014)

This might be a little off topic, but baseball is boring. I coach my daughter's softball team and I can't imagine being a spectator and waiting an hour between rooting interests. The family likes to go... so we go... blah.

Having said that... I have shot around 1/500 of a second and I didn't like the outcome... to much motion blur in the face...

But maybe that is just a matter of taste. 

And the images are cropped... some heavily so... and some are underexposed which leads to extra grain, so I'm still working out the night game kinks.


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## surapon (Aug 21, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> It really isn't that big of a deal. I was at a AA baseball game and I was using my 5Dmkiii @ iso 3200ish, 1/1250ish, and my 600ex-rt on body. I was taking photos throughout the game from the stands... literally in my seat and in the 6th inning I'm requested by an employee of the team to kill the flash. The guy was nice enough and polite enough, so I'm really not complaining about being asked to kill the flash.
> 
> I suppose my question is... do yall just kick up the iso and live with the results in lieu of using flash at sporting events? Considering it is semi-pro... and if 6 o'clock is right behind the catcher, I would say that I was at 7 o'clock... maybe 7:30ish... It just seems like they should be able to deal with the noise and one lone flash... though this is their profession... and if one at bat leads to 5 runs and a significant bump up in their ERA... so they DON'T get the call up to the pro's... so I understand this specific circumstance...
> 
> I will say it gave me an opportunity to force myself to shoot at iso 12800 which I never do... so I guess that's a sliver lining.



Dear Friend, Mr. jdramirez.
I am not the sports Photographer, But I use to shoot Baseball games, Ice Hockey, and Golf tournament. Four thing that, all the photographers must do or not do---If they let us take the Photos in that games---1) never interfere or disturb the players concentration, 2) never use any Flash to interrupt the players, 3) try to use the Long Telephoto Lens or Long Zoom lens that make the Sound of the Camera shutter not hear from the player , 4) Never use the Tripods in the Public walk way or the public Circulation, because that is the Building Codes for Public Safety.
Good luck.
Surapon


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## surapon (Aug 21, 2014)

4) Never use the Tripods in the Public walk way or the public Circulation, because that is the Building Codes for Public Safety.
Good luck.
Surapon


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 21, 2014)

As a spectator, I can say that its annoying to have someone using a flash. In a daylight game, the flash will likely be at or near full power. The little point and shoot cameras are not all that bad, but a pro flash can be blinding and leave me seeing spots. They are not what I paid to see.

I can imagine what a player would think when he is trying to track a ball, and a flash hit him in the eyes. Its a safety issue as well, he has to move quickly to avoid a wild pitch, assuming he isn't blinded.


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## SoullessPolack (Aug 21, 2014)

Here's what I would do. Clearly, these are not professional level baseball pictures, and you're not selling them. I doubt you're printing these either, unless maybe you have a friend or relative on the team. I'd use a large aperture prime lens, maybe a 135 f2 if you have it. You won't have the reach of the lens you took these pictures of, but that doesn't matter, since you're not printing them anyway. You can just crop heavily. That's the technique I used in the past when I was trying out sports photography at night, and it worked well. Had I been selling the images, then I would have had to take a different approach, but just for your own purposes, cropping would be fine and it would allow you to achieve a much quicker shutter speed.

If you insist on using flash, I'd get it off camera and place it to the side somewhere. Some of these look very amateurish. Getting it off to the side will help with the decrease/removal of shadows when using the flash from the camera. And considering the distance to your subject, the flash will have to be a considerable distance away from you (a flash bracket won't be anywhere near enough) and you'll have to use something like a PocketWizard.

Good luck with whatever path you choose! Show us any improvements you are able to make!


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## RustyTheGeek (Aug 21, 2014)

*First, read surapon's post again.* *It's spot on*.

Second, I am also not a sports photographer per se but I shoot sports from time to time and I have always conducted myself according to the same guidelines as surapon's post. *Read surapon's post yet again*. *It's spot on*.

Finally, MOST sporting venues PROHIBIT FLASH. It's distracting to the players and the spectators. And seriously, once the players you are shooting are farther away than about 15-20 feet, the flash is wasted anyway. *So read surapon's post one more time*. *It's spot on*.

I shoot swimming most of all and I am sometimes on the side of the pool only a few feet from the swimmers where a flash would be ideal and I still don't use it. It's prohibited, even in the stands. The swimmers use a flash at the starting line to launch. Obviously any flash would result in a false start. I don't even put it on the camera to avoid any confusion.

I assume if any sports photographers comment, they will echo these points. Look around at most sporting events and you'll find that the only flashes that occur are from spectators that don't understand the rules using their smartphones and point and shoots. In fact, many venues these days don't even allow SLR cameras or if they do, they don't allow a lens over a certain size.


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## jdramirez (Aug 21, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> As a spectator, I can say that its annoying to have someone using a flash. In a daylight game, the flash will likely be at or near full power. The little point and shoot cameras are not all that bad, but a pro flash can be blinding and leave me seeing spots. They are not what I paid to see.
> 
> I can imagine what a player would think when he is trying to track a ball, and a flash hit him in the eyes. Its a safety issue as well, he has to move quickly to avoid a wild pitch, assuming he isn't blinded.



I guess I didn't mention it, but this was a night game. So stadium lights.


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## Maui5150 (Aug 21, 2014)

I don't say this to be mean, but WHAT ARE YOU THINKING.

For one, what is the distance between you and what you are shooting? Shooting from the stands to the pitcher with a single 600EX-RT??? 

Inverse-square law... To have any real affect, you are going to need to crank it. Now if you had a monolight on a battery pack, that would be a different story but your flash is really not strong enough to make an impact, especially a day game, but even in a night game, the stadium lights should be generally sufficient

Second. You need fast telephoto glass. F/4 with a 1.4 is slow, not to mention the AF with a Teleconverter is deliberately slowed down. You will get better shots with with a 400 F/4 than a 200 2.8 with a 2x converter. 

A 2.8 to 4 is a full stop so you can boost shutter and not have to bump ISO. A 200 f/2 is an awesome option for this and gives you even more light. 

Flash at sporting events is a No-No. Basketball and Hockey are two of the only sports I know that allows flash, but that is for the game shooters and the strobes are up in the ceiling and pointed down, not at eye level from the stands. These are also extremely powerful strobes with very short durations so for the most part, people do not even notice.


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## mackguyver (Aug 21, 2014)

JD, I'm not a sports guy, but I don't ever remember seeing pros on the sidelines using flash for anything other than the post-game shots. As others have said, it's a distraction and potential danger to the athletes, but I can understand your desire/need for more light. The 135 f/2 is probably the single best spectator lens. It's discrete, fast (AF & aperture), and just the right length for most stuff.


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## jdramirez (Aug 21, 2014)

I did ask.. so I suppose I should take my medicine.

For one, what is the distance between you and what you are shooting? 

I was maybe 10 ft from the field, another 60-90 ft from the pitcher.

Shooting from the stands to the pitcher with a single 600EX-RT??? 

Yes.

especially a day game,

The first pitch was at 7... I didn't bother taking any shots until the third inning or so... so, let's say 8pm... so dark.

but even in a night game, the stadium lights should be generally sufficient

I did shot some at iso 12800 and it was adequate... but nothing I would ever even wish to claim as mine.

Second. You need fast telephoto glass. F/4 with a 1.4 is slow, 

Well... It was f2.8 with the 1.4 tc... so effectively f4.


Inverse-square law... s with with a 400 F/4 than a 200 2.8 with a 2x converter. 

A 2.8 to 4 is a full stop so you can boost shutter and not have to bump ISO. A 200 f/2 is an awesome option for this and gives you even more light. 

Last I checked, the 200 f2... in my price range, but I don't own it nor do I want it at the present.

Flash at sporting events is a No-No. Basketball and Hockey are two of the only sports I know that allows flash, but that is for the game shooters and the strob

That's fine. I'll through out that my daughter plays softball and I tell her she has to maintain pin point focus.... ignoring the cheers, the jibes of the other team... etc... though I'll grant that good natured heckling from the stands doesn't affect one's eye sight.



Maui5150 said:


> I don't say this to be mean, but WHAT ARE YOU THINKING.
> 
> For one, what is the distance between you and what you are shooting? Shooting from the stands to the pitcher with a single 600EX-RT???
> 
> ...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 21, 2014)

Professional photographers do use flashes for indoor arena sports like basketball. However, the flashes are typically up high in the arena pointing at pre-determined spots and triggered remotely. The lighting in a pro arena is good, so they perform only a fill function. I know a local photographer that does this for basketball. He buys every high powered flash with remote power supply he can find on the local used market. 

Baseball is a totally different story, a players vision is absolutely critical, 20-20 vision is unacceptable.

http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/red-sox/content/20120316-baseball-vision-when-20-20-eyesight-just-wont-cut-it.ece


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## AcutancePhotography (Aug 21, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Baseball is a totally different story, a players vision is absolutely critical, 20-20 vision is unacceptable.
> 
> http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/red-sox/content/20120316-baseball-vision-when-20-20-eyesight-just-wont-cut-it.ece



That was an interesting article. I never knew this.


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## TexPhoto (Aug 21, 2014)

I am a semi-pro sports photographer sort of. It's my hobby, and I sometimes get paid.

During the game I will never use a flash. From the stands, yes you will see small flashes from amateur cameras with pop-ups. But not zooming, pro external flash units. Up in the stands you'll eventually be asked to stop. From the sidelines / court side, you'll be asked to leave, maybe with a fastball. This is exactly why sports photographers crave the 1DX or whatever the current king of High ISO with acceptable noise is, and shoot monster lenses to pull in more light. Also, flash photos won't look right. An on camera flash, even a 580 or 600 is going to look like a pop-up flash at any kind of distance.

*Please keep shooting*, just loose the flash. Noise is OK. Work with it in post. It's normal in sports photos. Acceptable. Yes, you will have more than the guy with $18,000 of camera and lens. It's OK. Consider a 300mm f4 or an f2.8 70-200. (I or II, IS or No) 





Untitled by RexPhoto91, on Flickr



C28F0143 by RexPhoto91, on Flickr




Untitled by RexPhoto91, on Flickr




Untitled by RexPhoto91, on Flickr


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## RustyTheGeek (Aug 21, 2014)

*jdramirez*, you'll get great shots in the future without flash. High ISO noise is normal and a common challenge no matter who is shooting or what gear they are using.

I think everyone here, while they seem to be shouting about ditching your flash, supports you in your desire to get great sports shots. Keep up the efforts!!


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## Act444 (Aug 22, 2014)

I'm not a pro but I've shot some ice skating shows - same type of thing.

Using flash wouldn't even enter my mind as a remote possibility - as everyone else has already said, it's a safety issue and you don't want to blind the athletes/performers. Plus, its use is banned anyway (people with small P&S/smartphones fire off regardless). But that aside, I don't think it would even help very much...I prefer natural lighting anyway. 

I know the noise struggle...especially at shows that are poorly lit and even 2.8 isn't enough (on the 7D) to stop action without overstepping the ISO 3200 boundary. I've tried DxO Optics Pro and while it's great at what it does, it is FAR too slow when one is dealing with hundreds of images...


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## FEBS (Aug 22, 2014)

surapon said:


> Dear Friend, Mr. jdramirez.
> I am not the sports Photographer, But I use to shoot Baseball games, Ice Hockey, and Golf tournament. Four thing that, all the photographers must do or not do---If they let us take the Photos in that games---1) never interfere or disturb the players concentration, 2) never use any Flash to interrupt the players, 3) try to use the Long Telephoto Lens or Long Zoom lens that make the Sound of the Camera shutter not hear from the player , 4) Never use the Tripods in the Public walk way or the public Circulation, because that is the Building Codes for Public Safety.
> Good luck.
> Surapon



This answer of Mr. Surapon is right on top of your issue. Never interfere the game, so don't use flash ever in sports. 

I regural take photos of sports. Your 5diii can do a very good job for that. AF is really top. ISO can be easily boosted to 6400. If I really need more, so max 12800, I always look first for other solutions. For sports however, fast glass is a must. The 70-200 2.8 is too short for this. You really need a 200/2 or 300/2.8. I would prefer the last to provide cropping that hard. It's very common for sports taken pictures with ISO 6400 and higher, in last case mostly with 1dx.


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## Hjalmarg1 (Aug 25, 2014)

I was shooting @ f/4 with a 1.4 teleconvertor... I have a hankerin' to buy a 300mm f/2.8L (first generation), but that still doesn't help me with my light issue. 
[/quote]

There is a big difference in light when shooting at f2.8 Vs. f4 or f5.6 (f4+1.4 TC). If you cannot have large aperture then you need a camera that can handle high ISO sensitivities (1Dx, 5D3) with low degradation in IQ.


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## terminatahx (Aug 31, 2014)

Shooting with flash to capture sports is a rookie move. Especially when you are locked at a slow shutter (250/s) The best way to shoot sports is a superzoom with as wide an aperture as possible, coupled with a body capable of high fps (>8), excellent servo (motion tracking), and excellent iso performance at levels greater than 1600. When shooting football in the early evening, to maintain shutter of 1250, my iso frequently lives at 3200 and above.


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## jdramirez (Aug 31, 2014)

terminatahx said:


> Shooting with flash to capture sports is a rookie move. Especially when you are locked at a slow shutter (250/s) The best way to shoot sports is a superzoom with as wide an aperture as possible, coupled with a body capable of high fps (>8), excellent servo (motion tracking), and excellent iso performance at levels greater than 1600. When shooting football in the early evening, to maintain shutter of 1250, my iso frequently lives at 3200 and above.



High speed sync? My 5d mkiii also syncs at 1/200..., but that isn't really germane.
Sure I'd like a 400mm f2.8L is mkii, but I don't have a spare $12,000... though I can check the couch cushions... let me check right now... nope only $8,000, mostly in pennies. I have mulled over a 1dx, but I'm quite happy with the mkiii at the moment. Actually, when I shoot sports I time and anticipate... I haven't sprayed and prayed in quite a while.


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## TexPhoto (Sep 2, 2014)

High speed sync? My 5d mkiii also syncs at 1/200..., but that isn't really germane.
Sure I'd like a 400mm f2.8L is mkii, but I don't have a spare $12,000... though I can check the couch cushions... let me check right now... nope only $8,000, mostly in pennies. I have mulled over a 1dx, but I'm quite happy with the mkiii at the moment. Actually, when I shoot sports I time and anticipate... I haven't sprayed and prayed in quite a while.
[/quote]

Good news 400mm f2.8L is mk II down to a rock bottom $10,500!

Actually I was going to mention the 300mm f4 is a hell of a lens for the money. 300 2.8 is nice, but f4 will get the job done.


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## jdramirez (Sep 2, 2014)

TexPhoto said:


> High speed sync? My 5d mkiii also syncs at 1/200..., but that isn't really germane.
> Sure I'd like a 400mm f2.8L is mkii, but I don't have a spare $12,000... though I can check the couch cushions... let me check right now... nope only $8,000, mostly in pennies. I have mulled over a 1dx, but I'm quite happy with the mkiii at the moment. Actually, when I shoot sports I time and anticipate... I haven't sprayed and prayed in quite a while.



Good news 400mm f2.8L is mk II down to a rock bottom $10,500!

Actually I was going to mention the 300mm f4 is a hell of a lens for the money. 300 2.8 is nice, but f4 will get the job done. 
[/quote]

I did notice... and I'm going to be perpetually tempted until I finally dive into the pool. I considered the 300 f/4... but I have the 70-200mm f/2.8L is mkii plus the 1.4 extender. which gives me the 100mm to 280mm range @ f/4 (though admittedly with a hit to image quality). 

Right now I'm buying a few accessories I otherwise am too cheap to buy, monitors (and evidently the color correction system), a good monopod, etc. After all in said and done... I'm going to be a good 6 grand away from a new 400 f/2.8... but maybe a used one will be only 3 or 4K away... and that isn't impossible... though admittedly... not likely.


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