# Sigma 85mm Art outscores the 85mm Otus (...on a D800E)



## ahsanford (Feb 2, 2017)

PB has leaked non-published DXO testing again:
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2017/02/02/sigma-85mm-f1-4-beats-zeiss-otus-dxo-tests/

And somehow the highest lens rating ever given by DXO (a site that strongly biases it's overall rating on the number of pixels sitting behind the lens) was given to this lens on a 36 MP rig. Can't wait for this to be thoroughly outresolved on a 5DS and still get saddled with a lower score for another new reason. #dxo #fairandbalanced

That said, this is in line what virtually every reviewer has said: the Sigma 85mm Art could be their masterpiece. The AF will always have the spectre of lenses' past hovering around it, but by all accounts this lens is a gem.

- A


----------



## mistaspeedy (Feb 2, 2017)

I always welcome competition. More and more high quality lenses are being released by Sigma, Tamron and others, meaning that Canon will also have to step up their game too.


----------



## kaihp (Feb 2, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> And somehow the highest lens rating ever given by DXO (a site that strongly biases it's overall rating on the number of pixels sitting behind the lens) was given to this lens on a 36 MP rig. Can't wait for this to be thoroughly outresolved on a 5DS and still get saddled with a lower score for another new reason. #dxo #fairandbalanced



No need to wait. Go to the same page you linked to and look at lens #3 from the bottom: Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG HSM A on 5DsR.

Seems that the only score that the 85A+5DsR loses to the 85A+D800E(?) is in Transmission. And yet the score is 3 points lower (48 vs 51).

Edit: spelling, damnit!


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 3, 2017)

kaihp said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > And somehow the highest lens rating ever given by DXO (a site that strongly biases it's overall rating on the number of pixels sitting behind the lens) was given to this lens on a 36 MP rig. Can't wait for this to be thoroughly outresolved on a 5DS and still get saddled with a lower score for another new reason. #dxo #fairandbalanced
> ...



Good eye! Yep, DXO would appear to be back at their shenanigans again.

- A


----------



## Alex_M (Feb 3, 2017)

what is the lens T factor has to do with the type of mount? Is Nikon mount superior to EF mount in anyway in that regard?
I really struggle to digest that bit 



kaihp said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > And somehow the highest lens rating ever given by DXO (a site that strongly biases it's overall rating on the number of pixels sitting behind the lens) was given to this lens on a 36 MP rig. Can't wait for this to be thoroughly outresolved on a 5DS and still get saddled with a lower score for another new reason. #dxo #fairandbalanced
> ...


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 3, 2017)

Alex_M said:


> what is the lens T factor has to do with the type of mount? Is Nikon mount superior to EF mount in anyway in that regard?
> I really struggle to digest that bit



I'm no sensor expert, but apparently some sensor stack decision Canon made that Nikon didn't can affect transmission.

In a test designed to rate a lens. That's so DXO.

- A


----------



## Alex_M (Feb 3, 2017)

Is that right! my Sigma 85 Art lightens up, glowing and feels being privileged by being attached to the royal Nikon shaft.. it get's all murky and sad when attached to a lowly Canon 5DsR rig. How unfair... :



ahsanford said:


> Alex_M said:
> 
> 
> > what is the lens T factor has to do with the type of mount? Is Nikon mount superior to EF mount in anyway in that regard?
> ...


----------



## -1 (Feb 3, 2017)

It seems to have less vigneting on the DsR than 810... Could be an indication of something. The fact that the 1D2 and Takkumar 85/1.9 combo is unaccounted for too... ;[email protected]


----------



## Alex_M (Feb 3, 2017)

it does not make any sense whatsover.. vignetting, CA and T-number are properties of the lens and have nothing to do with camera. Ignore these charlatans. Ignorence be damned!



-1 said:


> It seems to have less vigneting on the DsR than 810... Could be an indication of something. The fact that the 1D2 and Takkumar 85/1.9 combo is unaccounted for too... ;[email protected]


----------



## -1 (Feb 3, 2017)

Alex_M said:


> it does not make any sense whatsover.. vignetting, CA and T-number are properties of the lens and have nothing to do with camera. Ignore these charlatans. Ignorence be damned!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thickness of sensor stacks and the depth of photon wells have nothing to do with vignetting on DCs... Right! ;-))


----------



## Alex_M (Feb 3, 2017)

before you start getting all sarcastic.. what you are referring to is a combination of lens originated vignetting as property of light fall off produced by the lens and due to the lens own properties and added vignetting by camera sensor due to thickness of sensor stack and depth of photon wells.. as you noted..

my point is: test is all about the lens and therefore should be conducted independently from a camera or any other system. Lensrentals do the right thing in that regard.



-1 said:


> Thickness of sensor stacks and the depth of photon wells have nothing to do with vignetting on DCs... Right! ;-))


----------



## -1 (Feb 3, 2017)

Alex_M said:


> before you start getting all sarcastic.. what you are referring to is a combination of lens originated vignetting as property of light fall off produced by the lens and due to the lens own properties and added vignetting by camera sensor due to thickness of sensor stack and depth of photon wells.. as you noted..
> 
> my point is: test is all about the lens and therefore should be conducted independently from a camera or any other system. Lensrentals do the right thing in that regard.
> 
> ...



Mom said that I was a good boy... ) DxO conducts their tests as a part of making lens profiles for their soft and makes them available for potential customers so that they know how thorough they are and nicely chooses lenses that makes DxOs soft look good when their pictures are posted on FB and Flicker! Look ma, no sarcasmus what so ever!!! ;-))


----------



## tron (Feb 3, 2017)

Alex_M said:


> Is that right!* my Sigma 85 Art lightens up, glowing and feels being privileged by being attached to the royal Nikon shaft*.. it get's all murky and sad when attached to a lowly Canon 5DsR rig. How unfair... :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 ;D ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Jopa (Feb 3, 2017)

The vignetting number seems like an error. DxO tests are garbage


----------



## mackguyver (Feb 3, 2017)

Canon's mount is supposed to allow larger apertures than Nikon's, which is why we have f/1.2 lenses in production, and they only have an older lens that fast. 3rd party lenses for different mounts are not identical of course, so that, combined with the microlenses and other things on the sensor can affect the angle of light and thus, the vignetting. I don't think DxO has ever said how they test T-Stop, but it should independent of any body, and if that's the case, the lower value is likely because of design differences between the two versions of the lens based on lens mount.

That aside, using T-Stop to determine a lens "score" to me is the most ridiculous part of their methodology. It's why the 100mm f/2 "outscores" the 300 f/2.8 IS II with a sharpness of 45 vs. 19, higher vignetting, and CA. 

I do love their software and think their measurements are pretty solid, but it's almost tragic if there are people out there who make buying decisions based on DxO "scores".


----------



## -1 (Feb 4, 2017)

mackguyver said:


> Canon's mount is supposed to allow larger apertures than Nikon's, which is why we have f/1.2 lenses in production, and they only have an older lens that fast. 3rd party lenses for different mounts are not identical of course, so that, combined with the microlenses and other things on the sensor can affect the angle of light and thus, the vignetting. I don't think DxO has ever said how they test T-Stop, but it should independent of any body, and if that's the case, the lower value is likely because of design differences between the two versions of the lens based on lens mount.



The DxO makes, if I've understood their procedure correct one profile per lens camera combination. With those devices in the lab. I also asume that they check their gear, cameras and lenses to make sure that they work as can be expected! That's a lot of work and that's why their soft ain't free...



mackguyver said:


> That aside, using T-Stop to determine a lens "score" to me is the most ridiculous part of their methodology. It's why the 100mm f/2 "outscores" the 300 f/2.8 IS II with a sharpness of 45 vs. 19, higher vignetting, and CA.
> 
> I do love their software and think their measurements are pretty solid, but it's almost tragic if there are people out there who make buying decisions based on DxO "scores".



I read the test by number and graphs too and think that one have to understand that the "scores" are balanced so that they will reflect that what the less technically initiated user expect to find in their gear and are looking for.

Edit: I was apparently wrong since the DxO Optics 9 obviously is worthless as it's free for the asking this February:

http://www.dxo.com/us/digitalcamerauk


----------



## mackguyver (Feb 5, 2017)

-1 said:


> Edit: I was apparently wrong since the DxO Optics 9 obviously is worthless as it's free for the asking this February:
> 
> http://www.dxo.com/us/digitalcamerauk


They have given away older versions of their software like this over the years but this is the first time they've given away DxO Optics Pro, I believe. Usually it's the FilmPack.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 5, 2017)

Alex_M said:


> before you start getting all sarcastic.. what you are referring to is a combination of lens originated vignetting as property of light fall off produced by the lens and due to the lens own properties and added vignetting by camera sensor due to thickness of sensor stack and depth of photon wells.. as you noted..
> 
> my point is: test is all about the lens and therefore should be conducted independently from a camera or any other system. Lensrentals do the right thing in that regard.
> 
> ...



The problem is that people normally use a lens with a camera, so while the raw value of a lens test is interesting, knowing how it performs on your camera versus a different choice is also of value.


The problem is that DXO scores and rates lenses according to undisclosed methods, so those rating numbers have little meaning in trying to evaluate a lens.

Roger at Lensrentals warns of placing too much value on his tests, interpreting his results to real world meaning is fraught with wrong conclusions, but I still like to see his results, they are valuable. 

About the best we can do is read multiple reviews from experienced testers and select a lens for your usage. 
There are many things that DXO does not evaluate that could affect your work.


----------



## -1 (Feb 5, 2017)

mackguyver said:


> -1 said:
> 
> 
> > Edit: I was apparently wrong since the DxO Optics 9 obviously is worthless as it's free for the asking this February:
> ...



Yes, I got both the FilmPack and ViewPoint that way. And now I, and thousands of others don't have to buy them! ;-/ The marketing folks of the DxO must be geniuses of the purest kind...

I just did downloaded Optics BTW. Could be usefull someday, for something, dunno whatever.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 7, 2017)

Annnnnnnd there you have it: virtually an identical result gets 4 points higher score for the Nikon mount.

Canon used to get shelled in its scores when a lens outresolved the 5D3 sensor and a higher sharpness was recorded on a D800 model. But oh, how the times have changed:
_
"While the results aren’t directly comparable due to the difference in the sensors, the 40 P-Mpix sharpness score is perhaps a little disappointing for Canon."
_
#dxo #fairandbalanced

- A


----------



## Jopa (Feb 7, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> #dxo #fairandbalanced



#dxosuxx


----------



## tron (Feb 8, 2017)

Jopa said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > #dxo #fairandbalanced
> ...


#dxoimmenseBS ;D


----------



## IglooEater (Feb 8, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Annnnnnnd there you have it: virtually an identical result gets 4 points higher score for the Nikon mount.
> 
> Canon used to get shelled in its scores when a lens outresolved the 5D3 sensor and a higher sharpness was recorded on a D800 model. But oh, how the times have changed:
> _
> ...



I really wish someone would do the kind of testing and metrics DXO claims to do (in addition to some more meaningful metrics), but without all the errors and balderdash we've become accustomed to in them. I mean, imagine how helpful their data could be if it could be trusted!


----------



## IglooEater (Feb 8, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Alex_M said:
> 
> 
> > what is the lens T factor has to do with the type of mount? Is Nikon mount superior to EF mount in anyway in that regard?
> ...



Not true. There may indeed be a difference in sensor stack, but that's not what causes the discrepancy in DXO's ratings. Looks at the zeiss 135 planar side by side on d810 and 5Ds, and the same with the zeiss 85mm otus. It's just the normal nonsense we get from dxo. The 85mm get exactly the same transmission on both bodies. The 135mm get _better_ transmission on the Canon.


----------



## Chaitanya (Feb 13, 2017)

DXo has published their review for Canon mount as well. Quite impressive lens. 
https://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Sigma-85mm-F1.4-DG-HSM-A-Canon-mount-lens-review-State-of-the-Art


----------



## Alex_M (Feb 13, 2017)

according to DXO, Sigma 50 Art and Sigma 85 Art are equally sharp ( sharpness: 40).
That does not ring true according to my own experience. Sigma 50 Art is a very sharp lens. I owned 3 copies of Sigma 50 Art so far. Best Reikan Focal QoF lfor the Sigma 50 Art I had so far is: 1890.
Best Reikan Focal QoF result for my Sigma 85 Art is: 2220. That is much sharper. 




Chaitanya said:


> DXo has published their review for Canon mount as well. Quite impressive lens.
> https://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Sigma-85mm-F1.4-DG-HSM-A-Canon-mount-lens-review-State-of-the-Art


----------

