# Teasers are over: new retro Nikon FF Body finally outed



## ahsanford (Nov 4, 2013)

Here it is:
http://nikonrumors.com/2013/11/04/this-is-the-nikon-df.aspx/

They've been hyping the balls out of this. If you've been hiding under a rock and missed all the teaser videos, in five words or less, this new body is:

SLR
Full-Frame
Digital
Retro
Stills (only)

I just don't get it. It's got a prism and optical viewfinder, so it will not be small. It's just a vintage film camera hiding modern tech beneath. This is a fashion-skinned DSLR.

It's like they are going after (a) film users and (b) Fuji users who still want to look cool but with a larger sensor. Or -- big reach here -- Leica users who really want autofocus? (Surely they'd go with the new Sony rigs, right?)

I live in California, and I know a ton of arty kids with photography classroom experience who shoot old film SLRs partly for the craft of it and partly for the style of the old tech. But these kids don't have the coin for an FF DSLR.

I'm lost here. Unless the stills-only / no frills aspect of the design gets the price _way_ down, I just don't get what they're aiming for here.

- A


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## RLPhoto (Nov 4, 2013)

It just doesn't look as slim as my old OM1 film camera. It still looks rather thick but I could be wrong. There is nothing bad about the idea if it's done perfectly.


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## Dylan777 (Nov 4, 2013)

I will wait for Fuji FF - mirrorless. I wouldn't change anything about Fuji x100s, except body size for 35mm sensor - I'm ok with slightly bigger body size.

That Nikon retro looks :-\


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## Albi86 (Nov 4, 2013)

I like the "Made in Japan".

If the price is contained and Nikon has gone all-in in stills functionality - aka 24MP, 51pt AF, HSS, 6-7fps, interchangeable mirrors, etc... then it's a winner and finally a real successor to the D700.


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## Sporgon (Nov 4, 2013)

Well I made my prediction on the other thread about the DF before seeing the pictures, and I recon I've got it right. Impossible to say without using one, but I guess the physical controls could work well. 

Nikon finally getting their ducks in a row; I think this camera will be a great success for them. 

And they've finally put the logo right again after years of it looking wind swept - or drunk.


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## ahsanford (Nov 4, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> I like the "Made in Japan".
> 
> If the price is contained and Nikon has gone all-in in stills functionality - aka 24MP, 51pt AF, HSS, 6-7fps, interchangeable mirrors, etc... then it's a winner and finally a real successor to the D700.



I don't believe that will be the offering:
http://nikonrumors.com/2013/10/28/nikon-df-camera-rumors-recap.aspx/

Looks like A+ for mechanicals and B for features / electronics / bells and whistles.

- A


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## Albi86 (Nov 4, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > I like the "Made in Japan".
> ...



I still hope the rumour will be proven untrue tomorrow 

Otherwise it's just a revamped and overpriced D610.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 4, 2013)

Gotta love that old film SLR styling straight out of the early 1980's. To complete the package, you just need a groovy mullet haircut and a sweet ride like an early 80's Mazda 626...


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## 7enderbender (Nov 4, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Gotta love that old film SLR styling straight out of the early 1980's. To complete the package, you just need a groovy mullet haircut and a sweet ride like an early 80's Mazda 626...




Well, they/you certainly now the target market here ;-)


I would be totally happy to have a digital Canon F1n version of this (with a viewfinder that supports manual focus lenses) and load it into a fully restored early Celica.


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## Aglet (Nov 4, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> I will wait for Fuji FF - mirrorless. I wouldn't change anything about Fuji x100s, except body size for 35mm sensor - I'm ok with slightly bigger body size.
> 
> That Nikon retro looks :-\



yup, a big fence for next gear direction.
FF Fuji and FF Pentax rumors yet to bear fruit beyond photo of prototype.
Still luvin my d800s tho might consider swapping one for a Df. I like all the basic controls on big, glove-able dials.



neuroanatomist said:


> Gotta love that old film SLR styling straight out of the early 1980's. To complete the package, you just need a groovy mullet haircut and a sweet ride like an early 80's Mazda 626...


Does that 626 come with some sweet seatcovers?.. you know, the skintight demin variety, big hair, lots of eye makeup and ..


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## paul13walnut5 (Nov 4, 2013)

Reminds me a little bit of...


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## paul13walnut5 (Nov 4, 2013)

I do know that I want those Mazda Wheel trims!


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## privatebydesign (Nov 4, 2013)

I don't know what it is about Nikon design, I understand the ergonomic reasoning for having dedicated buttons for functions, but why does every Nikon look like the designers cashed in on a Chinese button and lever manufacturers fire sale?

P.S. If Canon make an A-1 lookalike they can keep it.


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## DRR (Nov 4, 2013)

I don't get who this is for exactly. If it's priced right it'll sell. I'm sure it's a fine camera. If I'm a Nikon user though I don't think I'd be all that excited. If Canon came out with the same thing, I wouldn't be particularly excited.

The size is my main sticking point. It doesn't appear to be any smaller/thinner than an entry level DSLR. It looks smaller than the Nikon FF offerings but not significantly. I like the dial approach but I feel like they've gone overboard a bit.

Contrast this to the recent Sony FF mirrorless offerings - much smaller lighter, thinner. If Canon came out with something like the A7 I'd be intrigued. 

Basically if they could take the mirror box out of a 6D, make it thinner and lighter, and price it under $1500 body only, have full EF lens compatibility, I think that would be a winner.


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## RomainF (Nov 4, 2013)

Will be priced at *3.000$ with kit lens *(50 1.8 ) and 2700$ without. 

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/11/04/this-is-the-nikon-df.aspx/


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## drjlo (Nov 4, 2013)

RomainF said:


> Will be priced at *3.000$ with kit lens *(50 1.8 ) and 2700$ without.
> 
> http://nikonrumors.com/2013/11/04/this-is-the-nikon-df.aspx/



I personally find the Df extremely ugly and would much rather buy the D610 (if I were buying Nikon). 
The pricing also appears to doom the Df to commercial failure IMO, and I must believe some of the Canon executives must have gone over to Nikon camp and took jobs on the "Pricing Committee."


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 4, 2013)

drjlo said:


> ...I must believe some of the Canon executives must have gone over to Nikon camp and took jobs on the "Pricing Committee."



Or some Leica execs joined the Nikon 'pricing committee' after being booted from Leica for proposing pricing that was just slightly too moderate...


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## AvTvM (Nov 4, 2013)

meet the new Nikon Df ... erm the Nikon DOA 

Steampunkt design without any functional advantage. Still need both hands to operate it. And best of all: no video, no video! AND expensive as hell. Conclusion? It won't sell. hehehe!

D800 is currently at 2000 Euros - including 20% VAT [Germany]


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## Rat (Nov 4, 2013)

I was foaming at the mouth when I was buying my first dslr and I found out I wouldn't be using my mechanical cable release anymore. I still refuse to get why this simplest of remotes was scrapped just like that :'( 

That doesn't mean I see a use for this camera. Weird. May attract hipsters.


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## xps (Nov 4, 2013)

In the end of the 70ies, I bought a AE-1. It became a good a friend of mine and I took it with me on each of my flight.
This would be an good "retro".....

I took the picture frome the www)


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## xps (Nov 4, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> meet the new Nikon Df ... erm the Nikon DOA
> 
> Steampunkt design without any functional advantage. Still need both hands to operate it. And best of all: no video, no video! AND expensive as hell. Conclusion? It won't sell. hehehe!
> 
> D800 is currently at 2000 Euros - including 20% VAT [Germany]



Wait a little bit, claiming to have no video... Maybe there will be an extraordinary IQ. Then everyone will buy it. Even if Nikon sells it at 4000$....
Or: This is a new trend. One body for video, one for stills... So Nikon will earn a lot mor money. (Ts,ts,ts... Canon - You are to late! Normally Canon optimizes the profit, not Nikon.)


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## mackguyver (Nov 4, 2013)

It will cost $2746 for the body only $3k with 50mm kit lens:
http://fstoppers.com/amazon-goofs-prematurely-publishes-nikon-df-product-page-pricing


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## ahsanford (Nov 4, 2013)

mackguyver said:


> It will cost $2746 for the body only $3k with 50mm kit lens:
> http://fstoppers.com/amazon-goofs-prematurely-publishes-nikon-df-product-page-pricing



That's a DOA price. This can't cost a penny above the D610 and be viable unless there is something better under the hood that they haven't mentioned yet.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 4, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> That's a DOA price. This can't cost a penny above the D610 and be viable unless there is something better under the hood that they haven't mentioned yet.



Nothing new under the hood is needed. What everyone apparently fails to appreciate here is that Nikon is following the oft-quoted ice hockey maxim of skating to where the puck is going to be was a long time ago hasn't been yet. It's not really their fault they think the puck will slide across the ice to the middle of the Sahara Desert. 

Actually, it's a reasonable strategy, but they blew the timing. They should have waited until _after_ Apple made retro cool by launching the completely redesigned 2014 iPod...inside it'll have 128 GB of flash memory, outside it'll look like this:


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## jimenezphoto (Nov 4, 2013)

Just saw this....... 16 mp ???????
http://www.cameraegg.org/nikon-df-price-2746-95-was-available-for-pre-order-at-amazon-com/


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## RAKAMRAK (Nov 4, 2013)

I like the look and the manual controls.

If Canon comes up with something like this I shall surely buy.


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## AvTvM (Nov 4, 2013)

jimenezphoto said:


> Just saw this....... 16 mp ???????



yep. Nikon is re-using the D4 sensor and CPU. 16 MP, Expeed 3. Hi-ISO up to 204800. 
Coupled with D600/610 AF and electornics (4s to 1/4000s shutter speeds). 
Wifi as an optional WU-1 wart. ["no clutter. No distractions" said the teaser].
Plus a record number of wheels all over the camera.
And leatherette all the way up to the flash-shoe. [FE style] 

ROFLMAO


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## AvTvM (Nov 4, 2013)

RAKAMRAK said:


> I like the look and the manual controls.
> If Canon comes up with something like this I shall surely buy.



and I shall surely puke.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 4, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> RAKAMRAK said:
> 
> 
> > I like the look and the manual controls.
> ...



Just not in the camera shop. Remember...you puke on it, you bought it.


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## unfocused (Nov 4, 2013)

Sorry to repeat myself. Not sure which thread is likely to be the most viable, but I can't resist these comments.

16 mp sensor: Funny how when Nikon wants to emphasize image quality, they go with fewer megapixels. Maybe they know something about the big megapixel Sony/Nikon sensors that DXOmark doesn't know?

No video: At last, all those who complain about paying for video they never use have an option available. Buy the D800 with video or buy the Df and save yourselves $50. I guess I was wrong and you guys were right. You are are paying more for video capability. Spend that $50 any way you want.


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## Ivar (Nov 4, 2013)

Nice camera, I like it.

I also own a Fuji x100s, might replace that for Df.


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## AvTvM (Nov 4, 2013)

unfocused said:


> No video: At last, all those who complain about paying for video they never use have an option available. Buy the D800 with video or buy the Df and save yourselves $50. I guess I was wrong and you guys were right. You are are paying more for video capability. Spend that $50 any way you want.



hehehe .. were I live the D800 is currently at € 2000. The new Nikon DOA will be at least € 3000 body only. So no video will cost 1000 € .. oO. That's not the way it's meant to be! ;D


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## sdsr (Nov 4, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> I just don't get it. It's got a prism and optical viewfinder, so it will not be small. It's just a vintage film camera hiding modern tech beneath. This is a fashion-skinned DSLR.
> 
> It's like they are going after (a) film users and (b) Fuji users who still want to look cool but with a larger sensor. Or -- big reach here -- Leica users who really want autofocus? (Surely they'd go with the new Sony rigs, right?)



So you *do* get it! I like the idea of it, but unless that's an amazing sensor it's overpriced (though not, of course, in comparison with a D4). And while I like the look of some retro cameras (they strike me as far more attractive than most other stuff designed in the 60s-80s), this could do with a dose of elegance (someone should send them an Olympus EM5...). The fact that it's not small isn't a problem - it's FF, so it needs to be a decent size to support all but the smallest FF lenses, unlike the new Sonys; unlike the new Sonys, there's a better array of native lenses to attach; and maybe it will prove less of a chore to use than Nikon dslrs, with their convoluted ergonomics.

It would be interesting to know just how important all the stuff I consider extraneous is to dslr-buying public; every time I see a list of features in an ad or review I lose interest half way through (I'm always amused by lengthy reviews which leave image quality to the end and explain that while the camera is ahead of the competition in every way, the photos don't look anything special). Will people be put off by the "less is more" list of features here? How many people willing to spend $2700 on a Nikon a camera body will want a sensor with fewer than half the number of MPs of a D800, fewer AF points than a D800, no video, etc.? (Repeat the question in comparison to a D600, for that matter.)

Maybe it will do well and encourage a competitor to come up with something similar, but more elegant and more competitively priced....


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## Rocguy (Nov 4, 2013)

It looks cool I admit that. Looks count! 8)

But 16mp? Really? Really??


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## docsmith (Nov 4, 2013)

...why do I get the feeling that camera companies are groping in the dark looking for anything that might sell....


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 5, 2013)

docsmith said:


> ...why do I get the feeling that camera companies are groping in the dark looking for anything that might sell....


 
I think you are right. Mirrorless was the big up and coming thing, but after a quick start, sales took a big nosedive, so now we may see limited edition big ticket items that appeal to the hardware collectors, and will sell for 4 or 5X the production cost. Times are tough, and perhaps some unusual measures are in order. 

Canon seems to be content to compete based on pricing, their production costs are low and they can undersell and still make a profit.


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## Steve (Nov 5, 2013)

Rat said:


> May attract hipsters.



Yeah, I think that's kind of the point. This isn't a camera for the working professional, its a lifestyle accouterment. Just look at those teaser ads with the ruggedly handsome, unshaven man in the fashionable, heritage sweater walking through the autumn woods, capturing scenes that perfectly represent the idyllic life of the affluent and trendy. Who cares what the camera does, just _look at how cool it is and imagine how cool your life could be with it_. Nikon has always kinda been the Apple to Canon's Microsoft, the brand the cool kids buy to show they know whats up. This is just taking it a bit further.

That said, it is pretty cool looking and I hope camera companies continue to consider form as well as function. I love my 1D4 but its an ugly brick. Those Fuji XE-1's and X-Pro's on the other hand are handsome little cameras that look sweet hanging next to some raw denim jeans and a Filson coat...


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## RAKAMRAK (Nov 5, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> RAKAMRAK said:
> 
> 
> > I like the look and the manual controls.
> ...



Indeed. Then I need to get a vomit bag and some pepto bismol with me when I go to buy that camera. Thanks for the heads up.

If I remember correctly, time and again I have seen posts (may not be by you but by other forum members of course) asking for "still only" and "easy manual control" camera. Interestingly or unfortunately (depending on the view point) Nikon came up with something of that sort and canon did not. Do I sense some vain frustration?


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## mjbehnke (Nov 5, 2013)

The only thing I can say about this camera is that it does not look like the nice expensive DSLR's. It looks like one of those old cameras that a thief won't even want to steal. That's the good thing about it...... and that's about it.


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## sanj (Nov 5, 2013)

What a fantastic looking camera!


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## sanj (Nov 5, 2013)

RAKAMRAK said:


> I like the look and the manual controls.
> 
> If Canon comes up with something like this I shall surely buy.



Me too!


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## RAKAMRAK (Nov 5, 2013)

sanj said:


> RAKAMRAK said:
> 
> 
> > I like the look and the manual controls.
> ...



I was only born when the last great film cameras were in the last leg of their journey. So I never had the chance to use them, and I am not willing to buy a 30 year old film camera and some films to enjoy those pleasures. So if Canon comes up with something like this and I have the money I will jump onto it like crazy. The silver/black leather version is the one that catches my imagination the most. That is just gorgeous.


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## pdirestajr (Nov 5, 2013)

Looks kinda "retro-ish". But the back is still the standard Nikon DSLR explosion of buttons. Now add a ton more cool old-skool dials on top... Yeah, total simplicity in design.


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## sanj (Nov 5, 2013)

RAKAMRAK said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > RAKAMRAK said:
> ...


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## sanj (Nov 5, 2013)

D4 sensor in a retro look for cheaper than D4. Success!!!


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## Sporgon (Nov 5, 2013)

Hmmmm, well - it's certainly expensive, and a few modern Nikonisms just to assure us the correction on the logo doesn't go that deep. Compatible with all older manual lenses; good. No interchangeable screen ? Bad. I mean come on, even the 6D has interchangeable screens and it's not specifically aimed at manual lenses. 

The lack of this is because it requires mechanical components and that equals high manufacturing costs. So no mechanical mirror lock up etc. But given the price of this camera it should have had them. 6D with Zeiss is a better bet than DF with non Ai.


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## Aglet (Nov 5, 2013)

The specs are reasonably impressive.
Excellent number of shots from a small battery.
I wish my D800s had this kind of control setup.
And it's LIGHT! This gets a bit closer to the feel of an old film body just for the reduced weight. 
The Df will Dfinitely have to seduce me with the ergonomics and overall feel to make me trade a D800 for it tho, I typically do not need great high ISO performance.
I think this is going to be a polarizing product, love it or hate it. I think there'll be enough of the former to make it a worthwhile product.
Canon might even copy it.


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## paul13walnut5 (Nov 5, 2013)

I think it's a travesty, for a few reasons:

The bottom half is pure DSLR. Electronic stop down (and so horrifically designed)
AF mode seitches etc

AF at all.

I would have liked a 'thumbs up' style rest where the winder would have been.

The crappy G kit lens WITH NO APERTURE RING

It's the anithesis of the FM's, which were always solid and simple. Restrained. No more than you needed.

I still hanker after an FM2 or 3, with 50mm ais 1.4.

It's very cynical. They are trying to surf the crest of Fuji's wave, except that Fuji did some genuinely interesting things with their cameras. This manages to be turgid and insipid all at once.


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## Sporgon (Nov 5, 2013)

Aglet said:


> The specs are reasonably impressive.
> Excellent number of shots from a small battery.
> I wish my D800s had this kind of control setup.
> And it's LIGHT! This gets a bit closer to the feel of an old film body just for the reduced weight.
> ...



Interesting that you would change your 36mp D800 for a 16mp DF. More living proof that Nikon really missed the mark with a 36mp sensor.


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## MLfan3 (Nov 5, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> Here it is:
> http://nikonrumors.com/2013/11/04/this-is-the-nikon-df.aspx/
> 
> They've been hyping the balls out of this. If you've been hiding under a rock and missed all the teaser videos, in five words or less, this new body is:
> ...



initially I hated it but as I see it more and more , I think I am getting used to it.
I cannot believe I say this but I kind of like it.
just wish it had real video mode.
many many saying it's overpriced but I do not think so.
it is a real new design with very very high build quality standard , so it should cost a lot.
I bet if it had Geramn brand tag , no one would complain it.
I think it is a bit strange that if it had been a Leica , no one would have complained about the super high price , but if it had been a Nikon or even a Hassel Blad, there would have been so many people complaining their pricing.
do not get me wrong, I have a M9 and I love it in some way, but I am the first one to admit I got it for some kind of fashion or status item to show off , when I shoot serious I use my 6D or D800E.
imo, those retro designed cameras even Leica get old dated very fast in digital era, and after that it would be quite embarrassing to carry them, who wants to shoot the M8 these days?
so for me there is no way to pay more than 3 k for a DIGITAL camera.


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## seekthedragon (Nov 5, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > The specs are reasonably impressive.
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has talked about resolution. More living proof, that the Nikon D800 is so successful it makes plenty of the Canon users frustrated...

By the way, this DF looks incredibly lovely. The only drawback is the price tag...


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## Lichtgestalt (Nov 5, 2013)

Dpreview says it like it is.
Ergonomics are not good. It´s just for the look.

There are a lot of nikon fanboys in disguise here in this froum.

First all the trashing of the 1D X and 5D MK3 because it has "only 18 (22) MP... now they are very happy with 16 MP. :

As long as it´s nikon it´ fine... as it seems.


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## TexPhoto (Nov 5, 2013)

It's a silly camera and I would not buy one, even if I shot Nikon.

It's not for me, and Nikon may sell a ton of these to people who like it. Who am I to judge these silly hipsters.


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## sanj (Nov 5, 2013)

Why is it silly?


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## weixing (Nov 5, 2013)

Hi,
WOW... IMHO, that's an ugly camera... so many controls and dials. 

Paying more for less features... hmm... or may be paying more for a lots more dials?? Ha ha ha 

Have a nice day.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 5, 2013)

seekthedragon said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has talked about resolution. More living proof, that the Nikon D800 is so successful it makes plenty of the Canon users frustrated...
> 
> By the way, this DF looks incredibly lovely. The only drawback is the price tag...



The D800 is so successful that the 5DIII is outselling it by a wide margin, and resolution is so important that Nikon builds on the 'success' of their 36 MP camera by bringing out a retrocam with a paltry 16 MP. None of that frustrates me in the least... :


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## traveller (Nov 5, 2013)

The more I see of this camera, the less I like it: I find it very ugly -too big and lumpy and wanting in its deign philosophy. 

Even Nikon doesn't seem to be sure about returning to an interface based upon dedicated marked dials, so they provide both. Pure photography? My arse! This is pure marketing gimmickry that has actually complicated the control interface through duplication. 

This is a camera that claims to address the issue of over-complication in modern DSLRs, but actually does nothing of the sort, other than removing video. So video over-complicates a modern DSLR, but all the in-camera retouching options, a 39 point AF system with umpteen different tracking modes, banks of custom setting, etc. That's all fine it seems! 

If you really want "Pure Photography", you need to make pure design decisions: you must decide what the camera can do and what it cannot. The DF attempts to be simple and yet lose none of the sophisticated features of a modern autofocus digital SLR camera; it fails because our expectations of what this constitutes a modern DSLR, lead to a design that is inherently complicated.


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## Lichtgestalt (Nov 5, 2013)

front looks retro.... back like any other DSLR.

they call it DigitalFrankenstein on other websites and i think that´s a good description.


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## seekthedragon (Nov 5, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> seekthedragon said:
> 
> 
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has talked about resolution. More living proof, that the Nikon D800 is so successful it makes plenty of the Canon users frustrated...
> ...



I'm really astonished that you overlooked the point...


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## nicku (Nov 5, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> Here it is:
> http://nikonrumors.com/2013/11/04/this-is-the-nikon-df.aspx/
> 
> They've been hyping the balls out of this. If you've been hiding under a rock and missed all the teaser videos, in five words or less, this new body is:
> ...



Here we go again..... another slap in the face from Nikon*.*

I wonder when Canon will wake up???...... if they do.


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## max (Nov 5, 2013)

so hype is over... now bring on the Fuji X100FF!! 8) 8)


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 5, 2013)

seekthedragon said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > seekthedragon said:
> ...



Which point? That the design is blocky and overly complicated, or that it's overpriced? 

In fact, I disagree that it's overpriced. This camera isn't about form or function, it's about appearance and perception. If it's priced too low, it won't be perceived as the status symbol Nikon clearly intends it to be. Of course, car makers seem to grasp that middle-aged men want faster and sleeker phallic symbols, whereas Nikon apparently thinks boxy and old-fashioned is a selling point. 



nicku said:


> Here we go again..... another slap in the face from Nikon
> I wonder when Canon will wake up???...... if they do.



*LOL*. Canon will 'wake up' when Nikon starts taking away their market share. Can you honestly say you think _this_ camera is going to help them do that? : : :


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## Lichtgestalt (Nov 5, 2013)

nicku said:


> Here we go again..... another slap in Nikons face*.*



i was so free to correct your sentence. 

by the way what is your signature for?
it sends me to my shutterstock account, so something is not working as you expect i guess.


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## seekthedragon (Nov 5, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Which point?



Do I really have to explain? Then I do it really slowly, so you may understand.

A says: "I wish my D800s had this kind of control setup."
B answers: "Interesting that you would change your 36mp D800 for a 16mp DF."

B's answer has nothing to do with A's statement.

Scenario 1: B is simply mentally disabled, and does not understand A. In this case, I really sorry.
Scenario 2: B is so frustrated by something, that he overlooks statements including the D800, and tries to form an answer which proves the camera's utter uselessness, even if doing so is irrelevant or meaningless.

That was my point.

The sad thing that these scenarios may also apply to our conversation.


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## AvTvM (Nov 5, 2013)

traveller said:


> The more I see of this camera, the less I like it: I find it very ugly -too big and lumpy and wanting in its deign philosophy.
> 
> Even Nikon doesn't seem to be sure about returning to an interface based upon dedicated marked dials, so they provide both. Pure photography? My arse! This is pure marketing gimmickry that has actually complicated the control interface through duplication.
> 
> ...



I fully agree with almost everything you say. Except, that "no video" is an absolutely necessary step in getting to a "pure photography camera ... without clutter and disctractions." 
Unfortunately, Nikon did not go the rest of the way. 

Nikon wanted too much
1. compatibility not only for older AI lenses (like any other "better" Nikon DSLR) but also for those really old dog Non-AI lenses ... instead of leaving these uncoated, unsuited for digital photography clunkers alone! They are strictly for use with film cameras or as deco objects or as collector's items. Or all three. But nothing else. 
2. "Retro-UI" befitting a manual focus, aperture auto only classic SLR (FM/FE) and on top of that a modern UI to control a "very bland and uninspired" DSLR. Now there are 7 (!) wheels on that camera, plus numerous buttons and switches. Not well thought out at all. In the end, that's what makes the Df complicated rather than easy and really "silly" - as dpreview puts it. 

Nikon gave it too little
* instead of buidling it on the D610 chassis, they should have started with D800 chassis, electronics, battery and most importantly AF-system. Then put the D4 sensor in it, if they really got a huge surplus of those left over. And then retro-style the package in a much more elegant, restrained, pure and straightforward way. 
* retro- design should not have precluded inclusion of WiFi (and possibly NFC - for wireless remote control and GPS) plus master-trigger pop-up flash hidden in that huge viewfinder bump 

Then Nikon could have easily sold it at 3k (body only, forget about that 50/1.8). It would have given them a meaningful and potentially attractive addition to their DSLR line-up:
* fast/reportage D4 on top (max fps), not cannibalized by D800 or Df
* Df for medium res/low light stuff, medium speed, WEDDING etc. and "retro-fans"
* D800/E for hi res stuff - landscape/studio stuff 
* D610 for budget restrained hobbyists willing to put up with a marketing cripple

But ... they botched it.


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## RLPhoto (Nov 5, 2013)

The more I look at this camera the more it looks cluttered. It should only have dials for aperture, shutter speed and ISO to keep it clean looking. Let the rest be buried in to nikons horrid menu system because after all this is a "purest" camera. :


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## Sporgon (Nov 5, 2013)

seekthedragon said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Which point?
> ...



B here.

A actually wrote: The Df will Dfinitely have to seduce me with the ergonomics and overall feel to make me trade a D800 for it tho

C simply made a quotation out of context, or just the wrong quotation, or maybe was just on the wrong forum.

D pointed out a few salient facts which C took offence to.

Scenario 1: B is simply mentally disabled, - Guilty as charged: B frequents a forum where C is a member.

Scenario 2: B is so frustrated by something, Correct, B was a Nikon shooter for 25 years and is greatly saddened to see the b******s that Nikon is making with its FF cameras.


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## traveller (Nov 5, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > The more I see of this camera, the less I like it: I find it very ugly -too big and lumpy and wanting in its deign philosophy.
> ...



To be honest, this camera will probably sell well, which is a shame because it will encourage Canon to follow this stupid retro fad. Don't get me wrong, if retro means focusing back on individual user needs and building cameras that are a better fit to them, then I have no problem. In the case of the DF, retro goes as far as looks (which it doesn't quite pull off) and adding another layer of complexity to the control set-up. It will sell well because it looks fashionable, reminds the grey-haired crowd (who have higher disposable incomes) of the cameras of their youth, yet doesn't lose any of the features that give you bragging rights down at the local camera club. 

Yet this camera is not a sign of things to come, it is an awkward hark back to a previous era. It feels disjointed in its concept because cameras have moved on in the last three decades. The latest Nikon 'G' series lenses lack aperture rings, which means that the DF needs a way of setting aperture on the body. A multi-point AF system, multi-mode metering, variable frame rates, as well as all the 'digital stuff', add their own levels of complication. This leads to a messy design, which when combined with the desire for retro styling, gives birth to a bizarre Chimera.


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## AvTvM (Nov 5, 2013)

traveller said:


> To be honest, this camera will probably sell well, which is a shame because it will encourage Canon to follow this stupid retro fad. Don't get me wrong, if retro means focusing back on individual user needs and building cameras that are a better fit to them, then I have no problem. In the case of the DF, retro goes as far as looks (which it doesn't quite pull off) and adding another layer of complexity to the control set-up. It will sell well because it looks fashionable, reminds the grey-haired crowd (who have higher disposable incomes) of the cameras of their youth, yet doesn't lose any of the features that give you bragging rights down at the local camera club.
> 
> Yet this camera is not a sign of things to come, it is an awkward hark back to a previous era. It feels disjointed in its concept because cameras have moved on in the last three decades. The latest Nikon 'G' series lenses lack aperture rings, which means that the DF needs a way of setting aperture on the body. A multi-point AF system, multi-mode metering, variable frame rates, as well as all the 'digital stuff', add their own levels of complication. This leads to a messy design, which when combined with the desire for retro styling, gives birth to a bizarre Chimera.



+1
Except I believe the Df will not sell well. Way too expensive compared to much better cameras (5D III, D800). And those old greyhaired photogs are not stupid. It's more the younger crowd that falls for "retro" looks. Pseudo hipster kinda thing.


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## Albi86 (Nov 5, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, this camera will probably sell well, which is a shame because it will encourage Canon to follow this stupid retro fad. Don't get me wrong, if retro means focusing back on individual user needs and building cameras that are a better fit to them, then I have no problem. In the case of the DF, retro goes as far as looks (which it doesn't quite pull off) and adding another layer of complexity to the control set-up. It will sell well because it looks fashionable, reminds the grey-haired crowd (who have higher disposable incomes) of the cameras of their youth, yet doesn't lose any of the features that give you bragging rights down at the local camera club.
> ...



Likely. 

Nikonians, as far as I see, are not really so impressed. The thing that might save this camera is if it (somehow, it's not clear yet) performs better with manual focus lenses. That could be an interesting perk, especially if you have a lot of Zeiss, Voigtländer and old Nikon lenses.

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised to see it 2500 in 6 months, and closer to 2000 in 1 year. Hell, a great camera like the D7100 is now 900€ from its 1100€ of launch price.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 5, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> The thing that might save this camera is if it (somehow, it's not clear yet) *performs better with manual focus lenses*. That could be an interesting perk, especially if you have a lot of Zeiss, Voigtländer and old Nikon lenses.



I'm reading that the focus screen is not interchangeable...meaning no way to install a high precision or split prism screen. If true, so much for performing better with MF lenses...


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## AvTvM (Nov 5, 2013)

Albi86 said:


> Nikonians, as far as I see, are not really so impressed. The thing that might save this camera is if it (somehow, it's not clear yet) performs better with manual focus lenses. That could be an interesting perk, especially if you have a lot of Zeiss, Voigtländer and old Nikon lenses.



The Df offers mechanical compatibility with manual focus Nikon AI lenses [like all "better" Nikon DSLRs do] and - uniquely - also with even older Non-AI Nikkor lenses. However, even if one would really want to use 1960s lenses without proper coating and often sub-par IQ on digital sensors, handling itself on a Df will still be compromised. see the dpreview preview, page 3 .. they explain it quite well: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikon-df/3

Even worse, other than mechanical compatibility with old Nikon glass, the DF offers NOTHING at all to support manual focusing: no focusing aids at all, no special/"retro" viewfinder/screen with splitscreen or microlenses. Not even as an option. Viewfinder screen is fixed according to Nikon. 

Canon EOS 6D with changeable viewfinder screen and some nice Zeiss MF lenses is definitely a far better "manual focusing" package.


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## Albi86 (Nov 5, 2013)

None of us has looked through the viewfinder yet 

And if only they have managed to make the green dot more accurate at wide apertures, that alone would help a lot. But of course I'm just guessing. I'm curious about the special edition 50 mm kit lens that, if I understand correctly, should come with a better manual focus usability - whatever it means.


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## nicku (Nov 6, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> seekthedragon said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



This particular camera maybe not... but the Df + D800 + D610 + THE PRICES definitely yes.


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## Dylan777 (Nov 6, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> The more I look at this camera the more it looks cluttered. It should only have dials for aperture, shutter speed and ISO to keep it clean looking. Let the rest be buried in to nikons horrid menu system because after all this is a "purest" camera. :



Should look something like this; http://www.dylanphotography.phanfare.com/6246818#imageID=198269217

Oh well...rumor Fuji x200 is right around the corner and I'M IN


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Nov 6, 2013)

It's not bad, BUT they removed all video instead of improving it! And for this late in the game 1/2fps slower than the 5D3 despite delivering 7 less MP seems curious, maybe 7-8fps FF mirror box cost too much.... except the body seems to cost enough to support it though.

It does have a sensor that is better than the 5D3 at both ISO6400 and ISO100 though (although it's certainly not as much better at ISO100 as the D800 is at the DR bump is only about half as much, still doesn't hurt though, and the res is actually lower).


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 6, 2013)

nicku said:


> *LOL*. Canon will 'wake up' when Nikon starts taking away their market share. Can you honestly say you think _this_ camera is going to help them do that?  : : :



This particular camera maybe not... but the Df + D800 + D610 + THE PRICES definitely yes. 
[/quote]

Definitely? Guess you've invested heavily in Nikon stock, since it's a sure winner, 'eh? 

I suppose it's escaped your notice that the 5DIII is outselling the D800, the 6D is outselling the D610 (and the former is cheaper), and that while the Df has no competition, that's probably for good reason. Oh, and the sales of all the aforementioned cameras are a drop in the bucket compared to the entry-level dSLR segment, where Canon continues to outsell Nikon. 

But you go right on...confidence trumps facts any day, right?


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## Roo (Nov 6, 2013)

I don't mind retro looks. In fact I'm looking at picking up an old Praktica or similar just for a display piece. However I wouldn't buy one of these because it is way too crowded with buttons and dials and looks like it will be a nightmare to learn and use. Even though I don't do video, I'm happy I spent my money on the 5d3 instead of something like this.


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## J.R. (Nov 6, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > *LOL*. Canon will 'wake up' when Nikon starts taking away their market share. Can you honestly say you think _this_ camera is going to help them do that?  : : :
> ...



There is a poll on DPReview as to who is going to buy a Nikon Df. Not surprisingly (maybe surprising to some) almost 50% of the votes are for the option - "No. Never minded. I'd preffer D800's, D610's, D700's or even a D400's if appears...". Only 5% will put in a pre-order. 

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3571345


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## DaveMiko (Nov 6, 2013)

The choice between Canon gear and Nikon, Sony, etc. gear is no choice at all. ... Besides, this is a Canon forum, not a Nikon one.


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## AvTvM (Nov 6, 2013)

DaveMiko said:


> The choice between Canon gear and Nikon, Sony, etc. gear is no choice at all. ... Besides, this is a Canon forum, not a Nikon one.



so? 

I promise to discuss only about Canon-stuff again, if and when Canon comes up with something worthwhile to talk about. FF-sensored mirrorless system camera plus assorted lens-linep. Even better, but not much more expensive than the Sony A7R ... would be my preferred subject. 

Until that happens we'll continue to have fun disecting Nikon's sorry retro-mistake, the *D*igital *F*rankenstein.


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## RLPhoto (Nov 6, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> DaveMiko said:
> 
> 
> > The choice between Canon gear and Nikon, Sony, etc. gear is no choice at all. ... Besides, this is a Canon forum, not a Nikon one.
> ...



More like Didn't Finish.


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## 9VIII (Nov 6, 2013)

I absolutely adore all the buttons and dials on the DF. If they would have given it the D800 sensor, or more FPS, I think it would have been a lot more appealing. As is I would gladly trade my 5D2 for one of these, unfortunately since I got my 5D2 for $1,000 it'll be a while before something like that is feasible.

As soon as Fuji puts out a FF body I will have a hard time not getting one of those.


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## Sporgon (Nov 6, 2013)

9VIII said:


> I absolutely adore all the buttons and dials on the DF. If they would have given it the D800 sensor, or more FPS, I think it would have been a lot more appealing. As is I would gladly trade my 5D2 for one of these, unfortunately since I got my 5D2 for $1,000 it'll be a while before something like that is feasible.
> 
> As soon as Fuji puts out a FF body I will have a hard time not getting one of those.



Well I hope you won't miss being able to exposure compensate whilst shooting with your eye to the viewfinder in AV, or change ISO in the same way etc etc. 

Nikon could have had a winner with this concept. There was no need to be so 'retro'. They could have retained a large pentaprism with no pop up flash, kept the original bold, upright Nikon logo, but added ergonomically designed physical dials for the important settings that can be operated one handed.


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## Click (Nov 6, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> That Nikon retro looks :-\



+1 :-\


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## TexPhoto (Nov 6, 2013)

sanj said:


> Why is it silly?



It's is a $2700 camera pretending to bbs a $50 flea market camera. It can play a film rewinding noise. It does not shoot video, purely as a software limitation.

It can play a film rewinding noise!


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## Sporgon (Nov 6, 2013)

TexPhoto said:


> It can play a film rewinding noise!



OMG, I thought you were taking the mick so I checked this out. Yes it does when you connect it to a computer.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 6, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> TexPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > It can play a film rewinding noise!
> ...



I bet the person who thought of that is still patting himself on the back, while much of the world will laugh - I did - when they learn of this 'feature'. My iPhone makes a nifty shutter sound, too.


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## Coolhandchuck (Nov 7, 2013)

*Nikon dF not offering video functions*

When buying a new camera, how much weight do you put into its video capturing functions, if any?


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## sjschall (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: Nikon dF not offering video functions*





> When buying a new camera, how much weight do you put into its video capturing functions, if any?



Well, if you plan to do a lot of video, then a lot. If you don't, then not much.


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## seekthedragon (Nov 7, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> A actually wrote: The Df will Dfinitely have to seduce me with the ergonomics and overall feel to make me trade a D800 for it tho



That's a valid argument, for the consequences I do apologize.

However, I don't think that frequenting this forum would strengthen your grounds in any way.


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## AvTvM (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: Nikon dF not offering video functions*



sjschall said:


> Well, if you plan to do a lot of video, then ...



get another camera, preferably one that is dedicated to capturing great video. The Df is one of only two current interchangeable-lens cameras in the entire market without video. 

Just deal with it, videographers. And besides, there was no video on the Nikon FM2 either. ;D


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## Rienzphotoz (Nov 7, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Gotta love that old film SLR styling straight out of the early 1980's. To complete the package, you just need a groovy mullet haircut and a sweet ride like an early 80's Mazda 626...


Unlike the girly looking "groovy mullet haircut" or the "early 80's Mazda 626", the Nikon DF is beefy and manly.


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## Sporgon (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: Nikon dF not offering video functions*



AvTvM said:


> sjschall said:
> 
> 
> > Well, if you plan to do a lot of video, then ...
> ...



The FM didn't have power rewind either but you get a great power film rewind noise when you download the images from the DF ;D


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## Lichtgestalt (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: Nikon dF not offering video functions*



AvTvM said:


> sjschall said:
> 
> 
> > Well, if you plan to do a lot of video, then ...
> ...



yeah and i mean.. you can enjoy the money you saved because it has no video.


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## Rat (Nov 8, 2013)

I felt nostalgic today. Bought this:


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