# Canon 7D on it's way out?



## Cbadie (Feb 10, 2012)

I called my local camera shop to get pricing and availability on the 7D....they said that they are out of stock and probably not getting any more. This is from a reputable store as well, would definitely patronize them if I can. 

Odd I thought since I see it available all over the web. Anyone else run into this lately?


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## kfreels (Feb 10, 2012)

Most likely this is just a decision by the store to not order any more. Maybe they just weren't moving them enough or couldn't get enough margin on them. Certainly they can still order them from Canon if they wanted to.


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## bigblue1ca (Feb 10, 2012)

Cbadie said:


> ....they said that they are out of stock and probably not getting any more.



A question that comes to mind is, did you ask them why? Were they not selling, did they want to carry more inventory of other models, etc?


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## D_Rochat (Feb 10, 2012)

I speculated before that Canon may be doing some big changes to the xD line and that they may do away with the APS-C in the xD line, leaving the xxD to be the king of the crops. *IF* they build an affordable FF sports shooter (new 5DIII?), will there be room for a 7D in the pro line?

I of course pulled this out of my a**, but it seems more and more likely.


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## vlim (Feb 10, 2012)

In my opinion, if Canon produces 3 new bodies in 2012 (1DX, 5DX and 5D mark III), we won't see any 7D mark II this year


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## nicku (Feb 10, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> I speculated before that Canon may be doing some big changes to the xD line and that they may do away with the APS-C in the xD line, leaving the xxD to be the king of the crops. *IF* they build an affordable FF sports shooter (new 5DIII?), will there be room for a 7D in the pro line?
> 
> I of course pulled this out of my a**, but it seems more and more likely.



Yes, an APS-H or APS-C sensor is very well needed in xD series (my opinion). the only reason is the extra 1.3 - 1.6 crop factor extra reach. 

Canon is a company they doing business not charity and ending the life of a very well selling body is a mistake.

Why to end a very well selling DSLR line? its not make any sense. Even with the 5Dmk3 (rated at $ 3k) the 7D mk2 will have a huge potential at $1600-1800


Don't mention that Nikon will launch in the near future the new Nikon D400.


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## Edwin Herdman (Feb 10, 2012)

The usual argument against 7D going away from APS-C is that it immediately cuts existing users off from their EF-S lenses (APS-H isn't a compromise here) and it generally mucks with their selected range of focal length lenses.

I suppose a cheaper full frame camera might be great for many people - but don't see any evidence that Canon is seriously looking at that right now.

I think it remains very important for Canon to have an APS-C series with a good, quick body with weathersealing.


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## nicku (Feb 10, 2012)

*Canon will end the 7D series life?*

Personally... i don't think so.

the reason is simple:

If canon will end the 7D series, than Nikon will be alone (whit the D300s replacement) in the APS-C area without a real competitor. And the semipro APS-C marketplace is huge.


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## D.Sim (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D life?*

7D life could end - if they come out with a big enough upgrade to the crop sensor that it warrants its own line

Also, don't forget the 60D - its still around - and will be upgraded too...


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## vlim (Feb 10, 2012)

> I think it remains very important for Canon to have an APS-C series with a good, quick body with weathersealing.



I totally agree with that fact ! Wildlife photography is a huge market for Canon and the 1.6x crop factor is essential


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## K3nt (Feb 10, 2012)

I love my 7D, the 1.6x crop is both a nuisance and a blessing. The speed and weather sealing are excellent. Even if the forthcoming 5DmkIII would be a killer I wouldn't give up my 7D.


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## D.Sim (Feb 10, 2012)

vlim said:


> > I think it remains very important for Canon to have an APS-C series with a good, quick body with weathersealing.
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree with that fact ! Wildlife photography is a huge market for Canon and the 1.6x crop factor is essential



Oh, I don't thikn theres a need to worry about that... they won't kill the high end APS-C...

They might upgrade the 7D to a cheaper, fullframe, but if they do that the 60D update will retake the high end APS-C body set for Canon. Remembering the 50D essentially split into two, the 7D and the 60, where the 50 was once the fast, weather sealed APS-C model, theres no reason the 60D replacement to not return to being the top of line crop if the 7D advances to the next level...


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## Meh (Feb 10, 2012)

vlim said:


> > I think it remains very important for Canon to have an APS-C series with a good, quick body with weathersealing.
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree with that fact ! Wildlife photography is a huge market for Canon and the 1.6x crop factor is essential



+1 the 7D is the world's best 1.6X tele-converter with no loss of an aperture stop... awesome complement to the 1DX! ;D


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## AprilForever (Feb 10, 2012)

Cbadie said:


> I called my local camera shop to get pricing and availability on the 7D....they said that they are out of stock and probably not getting any more. This is from a reputable store as well, would definitely patronize them if I can.
> 
> Odd I thought since I see it available all over the web. Anyone else run into this lately?



This probably means that the 7D mk II is going to be announced soon...


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 10, 2012)

AprilForever said:


> Cbadie said:
> 
> 
> > I called my local camera shop to get pricing and availability on the 7D....they said that they are out of stock and probably not getting any more. This is from a reputable store as well, would definitely patronize them if I can.
> ...



The OP states that a local brick-and-mortar store is not getting any more 7D cameras. Not that want to buy them from Canon but there's no availability. Not that Canon has discontinued the wholesale supply. Just that _they're_ not getting any more. Most likely, it means they aren't selling enough of them to warrant keeping them in stock. 

There was a flap about this a while back, a reputable online retailer (in the UK/EU, I think) was listing the 7D as 'limited stock remaining, will not be restocked'. That was for the 7D body only, the 7D kits were stocked and remained so. Again, a case of a retailer looking at their sales history, and reducing stock levels of a product because carrying it is no longer profitable for them. 

So, no, it doesn't mean a 7DII is coming soon. Or, if you prefer, yes, it means that a 7DII is coming soon, just as surely as the upcoming storm we're expecting in the Northeast US was caused by a butterfly flapping it's wings in China.


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## Cbadie (Feb 10, 2012)

Yepp, I am the OP. The guy on the phone was very vague so I am going to call back later. I "hemmed and hawed" about a replacement when he mentioned what he did so I'll see. It would not surprise me to get a different answer as when I was there about 2 wks ago (to buy a 50mm 1.8) I tried both the 7D and the 5DMKII, and they invited me back to check both of them out before making a decision on a new body. 

Stay tuned (I know the suspense is killing you.....) ;D


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## AprilForever (Feb 10, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> AprilForever said:
> 
> 
> > Cbadie said:
> ...



And may it flap hard then! Actually, I am expecting the 7D mk II to be announced October. Hoping for it sooner is wishful thinking. I remember that the 1Ds mk III was being reported out of stock a while before the 1DX started to be announced, though... So we probably still have six months or more to wait...


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## EYEONE (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm also expecting the 7D II to be announced this year. Last year was too early I thought but I think it's time now. 
I think we'll see the 5DIII/5DX in a joint announcement, then later we'll see the 70D and then the 7DII sometime after that. Although there still needs to be a Rebel announcement too.

Dang, there is a lot of cameras due for update. This should be exciting!


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## candyman (Feb 10, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> ............, just as surely as the upcoming storm we're expecting in the Northeast US was caused by a butterfly flapping it's wings in China.




I love to see that and take a photo of it! ;D


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## foobar (Feb 10, 2012)

I expect the next 7D at the end of the year but not before Photokina. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets pushed to early 2013 to be honest. The 7D may now be one of the "oldest" cameras in Canon's lineup but it's still among the best high-end APS-C DSLRs out there and it still has every checklist feature people expect in this camera class.

I also expect the 650D and the 5DII-successor to be released before the 7D-successor.


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## distant.star (Feb 10, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> So, no, it doesn't mean a 7DII is coming soon. Or, if you prefer, yes, it means that a 7DII is coming soon, just as surely as the upcoming storm we're expecting in the Northeast US was caused by a butterfly flapping it's wings in China.



Yes, bring the chaos, big brain!!

Given what I see in "the marketplace" at this point, I believe Canon is organizing their EOS line into two streams, both equally important (and probably equally profitable).

1. A well-defined 1.6 crop sensor line.

2. A somewhat less well-defined full-frame line.

The 1.6 line ranges from DSLR entry level (e.g. T3i) with some good trickle-down high end features to a high end (e.g. 7D) for serious enthusiasts and even some pros who need speed, reach, etc. I believe the IQ quality in this line exceeds what 99.99% of its users need.

The full frame line is defined by something like the new 1Dx that Canon keeps talking about at the top and lowering through some range of models to a 5D version that could be considered the full-frame entry level camera. This is where they try to provide the most desireable tools for the videography crowd, the landscapers who don't want to haul big MF and bigger LF stuff into the wilds, and both professionals and amateurs who can afford (and want) the best available for a wide variety of applications.

While it's fun to speculate about what technology and models may be in the future, I don't give much credence to anything that falls outside those parameters, at least for now. The 1.3 crop, for example, is out of the picture for now. That doesn't mean Canon can't come back with it if needed for some new strategy.

Personally, I plan to live in the 1.6 high end and the full-frame low end. I expect both lines to be reasonably well defined sometime this year. So I'll upgrade my trusty T2i (two years old now and going strong) to a 7D type camera. And I'll get a 5D type for the full frame. More than that I don't need.

Meanwhile I'll continue taking pictures and having great fun doing it.


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## awinphoto (Feb 10, 2012)

Nope... 7D isn't going anywhere, but if they upgrade the 5d series to justify it's premium over the 7D, i would anticipate what improvements the 7d2 would have.


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## jrista (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*



nicku said:


> Personally... i don't think so.
> 
> the reason is simple:
> 
> If canon will end the 7D series, than Nikon will be alone (whit the D300s replacement) in the APS-C area without a real competitor. And the semipro APS-C marketplace is huge.



I highly doubt it. The 7D has a key position in Canon's professional lineup as the full 1.6x crop body. A lot of people need and want that extra reach, especially in a high resolution sensor. I don't think the 7D is going anywhere, on the contrary, I think it will be solidified as a key player in the Canon lineup as the crop-action body, hopefully with a significantly less noisy sensor and improved AF in its next release.


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## moreorless (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

The arguement that Canon would kill the 7D and up the specs of the 70D to fill its boots never made sense to me, why would Canon kill the more credable brand in favour of the lesser brand when either could be used on the same product?


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## K-amps (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

Canon has 4 lines in the APS-C arena: I have always thought, thats too much.

However I don't think they will get rid of the 7D. More likely the xxD or xxxD line might go as they merge into each other. The xxxxD line will stay since it gets buyers into the DSLR world, once they have lenses, they can upgrade.

The phenom was started with the xxxD Rebel... but now the buyers are a bit more specialized, hence 3 lines will work. It is like Toyota came up with the entry level car back in the day... the Corolla. It then grew in features and size and became as large as what the Corona started out with. But then they needed smaller models to replace the Corolla and they came with them as needed (similar to the xxxxD). 

The 7D is the halo/ Flagship product for APS-C sensors, can't see them ditching that.


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## AprilForever (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*



K-amps said:


> The 7D is the halo/ Flagship product for APS-C sensors, can't see them ditching that.



Indeed. Although, an APS-C 1D body would be great...


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## BDD (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

Kill the 7D?? Where did this rumor come from?? Ridiculous!!! LOL!!! It's not going to happen any time soon.

It's the best non-FF DSLR Canon has. And I don't think I'm really going out on a limb by saying that I think it might be the best non-FF DSLR on the market. If I were buying my first DSLR today it would definitely be the 7D bar none. At least if you go by specs. I haven't played around with one yet. 

Would be interesting to see what Canon does to upgrade the 7D to "Mark II" status. Not that I'm consider it. How would they make the 7D better than it is? More high ISO range?


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## nicku (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*



BDD said:


> Kill the 7D?? Where did this rumor come from?? Ridiculous!!! LOL!!! It's not going to happen any time soon.



the ''rumor'' came from many posts over various threads regarding the 7D combining with 5D in a 5DX...

hope canon will announce the 7D2 soon; i really need a fast , good quality (In terms of noise and sharpness) APS-C camera for my projects.


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## D_Rochat (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*



BDD said:


> Kill the 7D?? Where did this rumor come from?? Ridiculous!!! LOL!!! It's not going to happen any time soon.
> 
> It's the best non-FF DSLR Canon has. And I don't think I'm really going out on a limb by saying that I think it might be the best non-FF DSLR on the market. If I were buying my first DSLR today it would definitely be the 7D bar none. At least if you go by specs. I haven't played around with one yet.
> 
> Would be interesting to see what Canon does to upgrade the 7D to "Mark II" status. Not that I'm consider it. How would they make the 7D better than it is? More high ISO range?



I've made posts with the idea that Canon _*MIGHT*_ do away with the 7D and replace it with a better 70D. I think it _*MIGHT*_ happen because it seems that they are restructuring the xD line-up. If someone this time last year said that the 1DIV and 1DsIII were going away and being replace with a single 1D, they would have been laughed at and told they were full of it.

The bottom line is that no one knows for sure what will happen with the current models. Even saying that they'll keep the 7D is speculation at this point.


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## BDD (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

Sure. It's "speculation" to even say the 7D will stay. It just seems very unlikely Canon would decide to do away with a model they just brought to market. A camera that I assume has been doing very well in sales. Looks great on paper...etc. After spending the R&D/marketing $ used to bring this model to market.

If Canon DOES I'll be very surprised. I mean there's already a rumor floating around about the next version the "Mark II". 

We'll see in a few months. Canon should be announcing the 5D models this month. So I'm guessing if there will be a "7D2" they'll announce that model soon after. Don't see Canon waiting till the end of the year to announce a possible 7D2.


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## barryjphoto (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

It's called an 8D. I cannot fathom them doing away with it's top 1.6 body. I do think however they have far too many lower prosumers on board right now. I would position 2 T series bodies, one with a swivel display and the other without, and the swivel having a current 7D type AF. Then I would see an 8D with most of the current 7D features but a 5D style AF and nearly the same pixel count.


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

Personally I thisnk the APS-C sensor is coming quickly to the point of commercial technology limitations - ie it becomes cheaper to move to a larger, lower tech sensor to get a bigger improvement.

I suspect the 7D line may stay with us but gradually fall behind larger sensor bodies and then APS-C will whither away except for the more consumer based products and the P&S/compact cameras


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## kenraw (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

I personally think the 7D will stay and a mk2 version or x version will be released.
I would personally like the 7D to have a 12mp sensor instead if if meant sharper images and useable iso6400

at the minute I think the 7D is already pushing the sensor limit as the IQ isn't perfect


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## JonJT (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

The xD line may or may not include a crop sensor once Canon finishes refreshing it for this new product cycle. Regardless, Canon will release a camera that assumes the duties of the 7D, with features that supersede that model. It might have a different name, perhaps something in the xxD line. In any case, Canon isn't so stupid as to abdicate the APS-C throne. Canon has been too successful in this niche to just drop it and walk away. Those of you with 60Ds and 7Ds WILL have an APS-C upgrade path sometime within the next year.


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## Stu_bert (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

I don't think APS-C is reaching limits, Sony have a 24MP and the tech will continue to advance, but perhaps no longer bayer-based as Canon, Sony and many others look for ways to continue to grow the quality and resolution. Canon use their sensors in compacts and maybe in time in smartphones, and the tech flows both upwards into FF sensors and down into small sensors.

Specifically on the 7D - I think it will go the same route as the 1Ds/5D MK II, so the next 7D will be a larger (MP) sensor, better AF (same as the 5DX will have) but not with the build of the 1D series, and therefore also the longevity.

Whether they will consolidate lines - yup, but I think in the low-end. The 7D sits alongside in the Prosumer range with the 5DX. You need the entry level range to compete against high end compacts and mirrorless for those that want a dSLR, and then you need a bridge between the entry and the 7D, and that's what the xxD range does.

Merging the xxxD and the xxxxD to a single entry level would be the best place to consolidate I think


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## unfocused (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*



> If someone this time last year said that the 1DIV and 1DsIII were going away and being replace with a single 1D, they would have been laughed at and told they were full of it.



Not true. The APS-H sensor has been an orphan for quite some time. Many people have been predicting its demise and the merging of the two lines. The only surprise was that Canon publicly announced they were ending the 1D instead of simply letting it fade away.

If there was any big surprise with the 1DX it was the reduction in megapixels.



> Personally I think the APS-C sensor is coming quickly to the point of commercial technology limitations - ie it becomes cheaper to move to a larger, lower tech sensor to get a bigger improvement.



I think you are underestimating technology, which is usually a losing proposition. Manufacturers may be pushing the limits of what is available right now, but you can bet the research and development departments are working feverishly on the next phase. Fuji for one, has already announced new digital-organic hybrid technology that they claim allows APS-C to outperform full frame. 

In theory, full frame will always outperform APS-C, but as technology moves forward, they are converging and may eventually reach the point where only a handful of specialized buyers care about the differences. 



> It's the best non-FF DSLR Canon has. And I don't think I'm really going out on a limb by saying that I think it might be the best non-FF DSLR on the market.



Definitely. 



> Canon has 4 lines in the APS-C arena: I have always thought, that's too much...The 7D is the halo/ Flagship product for APS-C sensors, can't see them ditching that.



True, but I wonder if Canon would really save much by combining or dropping some of the Rebel models. They all rely on hand-me-down technology, so the cost of minor differentiations may not be a major factor for Canon. I suspect that many Rebels are purchased in person (as opposed to mail-order) and sales people like to be able to move customers up in price by offering a variety (This is the low-end model, but for just $XX more, you can get this.)


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## Chuck Alaimo (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

I've been using a 7D for just over a year and a half now and love it. Yes it has shortcomings, but, what camera doesn't really? With that said, as a beginner pro, the 7D does fill a niche for those of us who are breaking into the market and aren't doing so while being privately wealthy. 

For a while now I have been considering going FF. And the only thing anywhere near my price range is the 5d series. But, the 5D mkii seriously lacks in AF capabilities. I just got done with a brief rental on a 5D mkII and after having the FF experience, I can say there is a definite market for the 7D series, and hope they don't turn the 7D FF. I have a feeling my bag may expand, and when it does it will have 2 bodies - a 5dmkiii (not sure if the rumors are gonna be true, ie a split 5d series with the mkiii and the 5dx, if it goes that way I'd probably go mkiii) improved 7DmkII for situations which i need range. My 70-200 2.8 will work very nice with the 1.6 crop, making it effectively a 110-320mm lens - if i went FF and only FF, i'd have to drop a couple grand more to get a fast super tele lens, or sacrifice a few stops with an extender. 

With that said, I guess i don't really care if they call it an 8D or a 7d mkII. It's more what makes sense on a budget...


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## Cbadie (Feb 10, 2012)

So I called back and got the same feedback. This shop is not ordering any more 7D for now because they think there may be a replacement coming....they are have done the same for the 5DMKII. The shop also noted that they may re-stock these after about a week or so since they do not know anything for sure.....


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## dr croubie (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*

Think about it this way:
When the 7D came out, canon engineers were well aware that the 1D4 (which came out a month or two later, i think) would be the last of its kind. R&D takes so long, that they already must have had the 1DX in the pipeline then, they knew the APS-H was dead, they knew the 1DX fast-framerate and FF sensor was the future. They knew that 1D3 and 1d4 users would be upset by the less-pixels-on-target (i don't think they're stupid enough not to). So they tested the market with the 7D mk1, for an APS-C small-bodied fast-framerate sports and wildlife camera, and it did well.
I see the 7D mk2 (or 2/3/4/6D) and being a step up again, maybe with the 45pt AF, maybe with a new somewhere in between 30pt or so. MP doesn't matter, either better-looking 18MP or somewhere up to 24 to compete with NEX-7 & (rumoured) D400, nice and sealed, maybe even a bump to 9fps. f/8 is a wish I don't know if it'll come true. But in short, besides the 1DX, there's going to be a cheaper FF camera (the 5D3), and a pro-specced APS-C sensor for birds and wildlife (if that's the 7D2 or a new name is not relevant), then all the xxD/rebels below...


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*



unfocused said:


> I think you are underestimating technology, which is usually a losing proposition. Manufacturers may be pushing the limits of what is available right now, but you can bet the research and development departments are working feverishly on the next phase. Fuji for one, has already announced new digital-organic hybrid technology that they claim allows APS-C to outperform full frame.
> 
> In theory, full frame will always outperform APS-C, but as technology moves forward, they are converging and may eventually reach the point where only a handful of specialized buyers care about the differences.



I was not talking about technology advances but commercial technology advances. It is easily possible to make a 1.5 litre engine develop 1000bhp. But it is a lot cheaper to develop amd build an 8litre engine to develop 1200bhp.

Computer technology is ahead of sensor development (in its timeline) - but there hardly been any significant progress in PC 'power' for the last 3 years. The push has been in multi core - ie 2 cores go faster than 1, rather the speed the single core. Even the entry PC's now have a minimum of 2 cores, midrange have 4.

For sensors the easy (read cheap) way to get more from a sensor is to increase the size - and I believe we are getting close to that point


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*



dr croubie said:


> Think about it this way:
> When the 7D came out, canon engineers were well aware that the 1D4 (which came out a month or two later, i think) would be the last of its kind.



So is that why they continued developing the APS-H and even demo'd a 120mps APS-H. I guess that is another myth that is not supported by facts : :


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## foobar (Feb 11, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*



briansquibb said:


> I was not talking about technology advances but commercial technology advances. It is easily possible to make a 1.5 litre engine develop 1000bhp. But it is a lot cheaper to develop amd build an 8litre engine to develop 1200bhp.


Wrong methaphor for the subject.



briansquibb said:


> Personally I thisnk the APS-C sensor is coming quickly to the point of commercial technology limitations - ie it becomes cheaper to move to a larger, lower tech sensor to get a bigger improvement.





briansquibb said:


> For sensors the easy (read cheap) way to get more from a sensor is to increase the size - and I believe we are getting close to that point


That's simply not how chip production works. In chip production (and that applies to all kinds of chips, not just image sensors), a bigger area means exponentially higher costs. It's not that important what is actually _on_ the chip.

The price for a chip of a certain size only significantly drops every 5 years or so when the industry is changing to larger wafer sizes. The reason why other chips get cheaper and cheaper is because they get smaller (or you can fit more complex designs into the same space).

Image sensors do not benefit from these effects since their size is fixed.


But even if overall sensor manufacturing costs would be low enough for a rebel-priced FF camera, all other components are more expensive as well: The viewfinder prism, the microlens array, the AA filter and also not to forget that wide-to-standard lenses need quite a bit more glass compared to their APS-C counterparts, thus FF camera systems will always be more expensive than ones with smaller sensors.




briansquibb said:


> Computer technology is ahead of sensor development (in its timeline) - but there hardly been any significant progress in PC 'power' for the last 3 years. The push has been in multi core - ie 2 cores go faster than 1, rather the speed the single core. Even the entry PC's now have a minimum of 2 cores, midrange have 4.


That's because today's quad-core chips fit in the same die size as single-core chips did a few years ago.





briansquibb said:


> So is that why they continued developing the APS-H and even demo'd a 120mps APS-H. I guess that is another myth that is not supported by facts : :


In my opinion:
- The 120mp APS-H sensor was just a technical exercise (so far there has been no indication that Canon is planning to put it into a product)
- The reason Canon went with APS-H on the 1D for so long was partly because it was the largest size that could imprinted in one shot, as stated in Canon's full-frame white paper
- APS-H was never a mainstream solution for Canon. It was always limited to a single camera model and (unlike APS-C) they never produced a single lens targeted at that crop-factor.


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## briansquibb (Feb 11, 2012)

*Re: Canon will end the 7D series life?*



foobar said:


> In my opinion:
> - The 120mp APS-H sensor was just a technical exercise (so far there has been no indication that Canon is planning to put it into a product)
> - The reason Canon went with APS-H on the 1D for so long was partly because it was the largest size that could imprinted in one shot, as stated in Canon's full-frame white paper
> - APS-H was never a mainstream solution for Canon. It was always limited to a single camera model and (unlike APS-C) they never produced a single lens targeted at that crop-factor.



I dont think Canon would spend so much effort (and money) on a sensor that was planned to be dropped, although there may have been a subsequent decision.

APS-H was their mainstream pro solution - rather than the consumer APS-C.

I suspect the EF lens continued was because of the migration from 35mm film that ran in parallel. The APS-H sensor got the sweet point of the image as well as a useful 1.3 crop

It is a sensor that could easily replace the APS-C to improve performance quickly and easily. 

Brian


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## Meh (Feb 11, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I dont think Canon would spend so much effort (and money) on a sensor that was planned to be dropped, although there may have been a subsequent decision.



They might have but we can only speculate what the intention was. As was pointed out, APS-H made a lot of sense from a manufacturing perspective and therefore was the best compromise on yield and cost. It made economic sense to do it at the time and very well may have justified the R&D costs.



briansquibb said:


> It is a sensor that could easily replace the APS-C to improve performance quickly and easily.



Not really but depends what you mean by "replace" I suppose. Can't use EF-S lenses on an APS-H body and AF sensors in an APS-C body are also much smaller so really can't say APS-H can replace APS-C. Two different classes of bodies I think.


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## jrista (Feb 11, 2012)

I wouldn't write off APS-H nor APS-C yet. Both have value, from a cost perspective (cheaper to make, higher profit margin, easier to sell) as well as a crop/reach and framerate perspective. Full Frame is great, but it has its limitations. Three obvious limitations for FF are its much thinner DOF, limited readout rate (i.e. limited max FPS), and its limited reach. When it comes to wildlife, bird, sports, airplane, and pretty much any other form of action photography where you need greater reach, adequate DOF at wide apertures (which can often be thinner than you might prefer), and high frame rate...APS-H and APS-C are going to have value. 

If Canon can achieve 14fps with their new FF sensor, what could they achieve with APS-H or APS-C? Previously, their APS-H sensors could achieve almost double what their FF sensors could...so it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that they could offer a 24-26fps 16mp APS-H professional sports body, or possibly a 28-30fps 14mp APS-C one. Apply the new 1D X sensor tech on a smaller scale, pack in a couple Digic5+ processors, and I think we could see amazing things. 

There is more to it than just purely cost...nothing is ever really that simple. I see APS-C having a longer life than APS-H (if it isn't already relegated to the Canon museum), however I do see continued life for cropped sensors.


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## 5dMkii (Feb 11, 2012)

jrista said:


> If Canon can achieve 14fps with their new FF sensor, what could they achieve with APS-H or APS-C? Previously, their APS-H sensors could achieve almost double what their FF sensors could...so it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that they could offer a 24-26fps 16mp APS-H professional sports body, or possibly a 28-30fps 14mp APS-C one. Apply the new 1D X sensor tech on a smaller scale, pack in a couple Digic5+ processors, and I think we could see amazing things.



Sorry, but you are wrong... it's not about the size... it's about the pixels and data throughput... See, 1Dx has only 18MP for reason. One - sensitivity and two the data amount it produces. D800 can do only 4fps for reason. Not that Nikon wouldn't want but currently there is no processing power and fast memory media which could process this sheer amount of data.

Count with me. The best computer SSD's can achieve what - 350MB/s write speed? And they have some clever controllers. Now - what is the size of D800's RAW? 80MB? x10? 800MB/s for 10fps? Only dreaming currently. Unless they would deploy some serious parallel processing and storage this is out of reach with current tech.


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## jrista (Feb 11, 2012)

5dMkii said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon can achieve 14fps with their new FF sensor, what could they achieve with APS-H or APS-C? Previously, their APS-H sensors could achieve almost double what their FF sensors could...so it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that they could offer a 24-26fps 16mp APS-H professional sports body, or possibly a 28-30fps 14mp APS-C one. Apply the new 1D X sensor tech on a smaller scale, pack in a couple Digic5+ processors, and I think we could see amazing things.
> ...



First off, make sure you read fully. I know its related to pixel count (which is the reason I stated *16mp* APS-H or *14mp* APS-C)...but its more than that...its the design of the sensor, the design of the readouts (how much parallelism, how the wiring literally connects to the pixels, etc.) the speed of the image processors, the amount and speed of buffer memory, etc. Not to mention the fact that the 1D X has more MP than the fasted of its predecessors, which did 10fps @ 16mp (1D IV) and 10mp (1D III), so obviously having a "lower" pixel count is not a critical factor. The point I was trying to make was by using the same TECHNOLOGY that made the 14fps 1D X 18mp sensor possible, it should be possible to make a higher FPS sensor with denser pixels in a smaller package where physical distances are smaller (something Canon noted was important with their 120mp APS-H prototype which achieved a whopping 9.5fps in testing!) You would gain cropping power/extended reach over the 18mp FF sensor, with high FPS...a win/win for action photographers.

Second, the fastest computer SSD's are over 1GB per second when you factor in PCI-E slot variants:

1.9GB/s r/1.7GB/s w: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227764
1.0Gb/s r/ 900MB/s w: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227760
975MB/s r/875MB/s w: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227745

Flash memory can be EXTREMELY fast, if you have the right interface for it. On the memory card front there are the new 125mb/s QXD memory cards, the QXD interface (or perhaps it was the SDXC interface) is currently rated up to 300mb/s, and who knows how far they'll go in the future...600mb/s, 800mb/s? You would only need 800mb/s assuming you actually save an UNCOMPRESSED 36.3mp D800 NEF, compressed they are around half the 74mb of an uncompressed one. For a 16mp APS-H sensor at 24fps with properly compressed images, you would need maybe 300mb/s write speed, which is technologically possible with QXD/SDXC today.


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## Viggo (Feb 11, 2012)

Why would you need more than 12 fps? Then you need highspeed video instead.

And the other problem which is much bigger is, how the heck to you AF between 20 fps? TO make a motor that flips the mirror for 20 fps isn't a problem. 

This also a cost issue, who would pay 9000 usd for a aps-c with 20 fps?


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## briansquibb (Feb 11, 2012)

Viggo said:


> Why would you need more than 12 fps? Then you need highspeed video instead.
> 
> And the other problem which is much bigger is, how the heck to you AF between 20 fps? TO make a motor that flips the mirror for 20 fps isn't a problem.
> 
> This also a cost issue, who would pay 9000 usd for a aps-c with 20 fps?



+1

Interesting to see the frame rate DROP from the Nikon D700 at 8fps to the D800 at 4fps. Rather changes the character - from a sports camera to a studio camera.

I wonder if this will become a trend?? I feel the between 6 and 8 fps is adequate for me


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## funkboy (Feb 11, 2012)

vlim said:


> In my opinion, if Canon produces 3 new bodies in 2012 (1DX, 5DX and 5D mark III), we won't see any 7D mark II this year



Don't forget that we're supposed to be seeing a Ciné DSLR this year too; the new product pipeline is certainly pretty loaded...


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## funkboy (Feb 11, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Or, if you prefer, yes, it means that a 7DII is coming soon, just as surely as the upcoming storm we're expecting in the Northeast US was caused by a butterfly flapping it's wings in China.



That butterfly had better not tweet about its accomplishments if it doesn't want to get itsself on a terror watchlist...


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## jrista (Feb 11, 2012)

Viggo said:


> Why would you need more than 12 fps? Then you need highspeed video instead.
> 
> And the other problem which is much bigger is, how the heck to you AF between 20 fps? TO make a motor that flips the mirror for 20 fps isn't a problem.
> 
> This also a cost issue, who would pay 9000 usd for a aps-c with 20 fps?



Why would it cost $9000? One of the most significant cost factors is sensor size. It costs 10-20x as much to make a FF sensor than an APS-C sensor, so I'd figure a high speed APS-C action camera would cost only as much as a FF, and then only because of marketing, not necessity.

As for mechanics, flipping a mirror that fast IS a problem, which is why Canon can only do 14fps in mirror-lockup mode. I assume the same thing for an APS-C sensor. You could do clever things with AF as well...you probably wouldn't need to AF between every single frame since its almost real-time...ever other would be just as effective as a 1D X at 12fps.


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## jwong (Feb 11, 2012)

jrista said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you need more than 12 fps? Then you need highspeed video instead.
> ...



I agree that future performance will be limited more by physical constraints rather than signal processing. The cost between a FF and a APS-C sensor might be a few hundred bucks, but the curtain/shutter mechanics would have to be redesigned to support faster frame rates (assuming same linear speed over a smaller sensor size). It might be easiest to start designing it using the 1DX as a starting point. If so, the price wouldn't be that different from the 1DX.


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