# I Need a Flash



## lady (Feb 9, 2012)

I was originally planning to just wait until I could afford a 580 flash, but I'm kind of getting desperate without a proper flash. I'd need it mostly for in doors situations (such as inside a horse barn or in my small 1500 square foot house). In the house I'd probably point it at the ceiling to light up the whole room instead of directly at something. I will mostly be using it at night, in rooms that are relatively small (largest one is my loft at 500 square feet). I shoot animals and people.

Should I still wait even though I wanted to to get a new lens, or is there one you guys can recommend to me that's cheaper?


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## wickidwombat (Feb 9, 2012)

it really depends if you need to use high speed sync

If you DONT need high speed sync
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Yongnuo-YN-565-EX-TTL-Flash-Speedlite-Canon-5D-II-7D-30D-40D-50D-350D-400D-450D-/250976034954?pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_CameraAccessories_CameraFlashUnits_JN&hash=item3a6f56608a

these are pretty good at a third of the price keep in mind you will need to limit your shutter speed to your cameras xsync (for me this is a dealbreaker)

these ones willl do high speed sync
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nissin-Speedlite-Di866-Mark-II-Flash-Canon-Digital-Camera-NEW-/280775058735?pt=Digital_Camera_Flashes&hash=item415f7f652f
but the price is getting up there I think for me i would go to a 430exii over these at this price

I use the yongnuo external battery packs on my 580exii flashes and they work great, I have heard lots of good things abut the yongnuo flashes, I dont think you can get bette value for money than the 565 as long as you can live without HSS

hope that helps


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## lady (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm not sure. I have a 7D. I do shoot horses but I don't think I'd be using my flash when I shoot shows. 

That's a good tip. The 430 was the alternative I was looking at. I wasn't even aware that yongnuo made flashes!


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## wickidwombat (Feb 9, 2012)

oh another thing these yongnuo flashes (the 565) can be remote slaved to your 7D using your 7D built in flash
they are basically a complete rip off of the 580exii except they dont do high speed sync
pretty nifty for $150


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## Halfrack (Feb 9, 2012)

I snagged a few of the Nissin Di622 Mk II's - mostly due to their ability to be wireless (though IR). Works great with my 7d, and have used them with a 1d mk II and a 580 mk II as the wireless master.


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## Dylan777 (Feb 9, 2012)

About you look for a used Canon 430EX II on craiglist - $120 to $150 price range.

I got my 580EX II on craiglist for $310 - was in mint condition, came with box and everthing else.

Good Luck,


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## bycostello (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm into Nissin at the mo, way cheaper than the 580and a guide number of 60... so a little more oomf, slightly slower recycle but all ttl and fully compatible... better menu system too...


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## Forceflow (Feb 9, 2012)

I use the Sigma EF-610 DG SUPER. Nice price, great performance and plenty of functions to work with. I am really happy with it, and from what you write what you would do with it, it should be more than enough for you.


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## John MARK (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi,

I needed something not too expensive and not too bulky to carry along, AND from the Canon line for full compatibility (including hi speed sync).

So I chose the 320EX.

Powerful enough for bounce lighting in most indoor locations. 

Perfect company for my T2i, on the shoe or in slave mode, driven by an MR-14EX ring flash.

As a bonus, the 320 EX works as an infrared remote control to trigger an EOS body !

Also, reasonably sized to fit on my G12 and take nice shots with lo ISO settings, in professional or family situations.

Bought in France for half the price of a 580 EX, from this source :

http://www.digit-photo.com/Flashs_electroniques-aFA0018/

Quite pleased with that flash, really


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## Positron (Feb 9, 2012)

If you don't need TTL then the YN560 (different from the 565 mentioned above) is an amazing choice for about $70. They are serious workhorses with pretty much everything you need (unless you need TTL, of course), and pretty much the only thing I can fault them on is long recharge at full power. At anything below full power it's a non-issue. Very comparable to a 430EX II in what you can do with it, for about 1/3 the price.


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## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

Positron said:


> If you don't need TTL then the YN560 (different from the 565 mentioned above) is an amazing choice for about $70. They are serious workhorses with pretty much everything you need (unless you need TTL, of course), and pretty much the only thing I can fault them on is long recharge at full power. At anything below full power it's a non-issue. Very comparable to a 430EX II in what you can do with it, for about 1/3 the price.



Does the YN560 support eTTL2 and being a wireless slave from the on board controllers?


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## Tijn (Feb 9, 2012)

430 II will do the flashing bit. If you have a 600D or 60D you'll be able to use the camera as a master and trigger the 430 II as a slave as well.

The 430 II can't be a master itself (triggering other flashes) though. Moreover, the buttons and config things are quite annoying. The 580 has very nice tactile buttons while the 430 has soft buttons that require a deep nail press in order to operate. As a flash it does its job quite well, but it's just not very nice to use. If you get quickly annoyed over these things... Think twice about the 430 (and perhaps consider different-make flashes as cheaper alternatives to the 580).

I got a 60D with 430 II, and it's fun to play around with using my camera as a master with the flash set up as a slave somewhere. Works wonderfully, quite good enough for some experimentation. Could be more friendly to operate button-wise. And I won't be using it in the splashing rain (it's not water resistant, unlike its 580 bigger brother), so this is fine for me.


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## RC (Feb 9, 2012)

I would seriously reconsider getting a 580 EXII even if you have to wait longer or buy one used. I'm not a flash expert but I've been doing lots of studying and experimenting with flash and have found the 580 to be wonderful not only for its higher GN and features but mainly because of its wireless master function (I have 1 - 580 and 2 - 430s). 

My only body is a 7D which can act as a wireless master but having the option for an off camera master via an extra long ETTL cord makes wireless flash almost limitless. With horse photography (assuming you have horses in the horse barn) I can only image the need for an additional flash and a way to trigger it.

Assuming you have the funds or can save up or buy used, these 3 items will do wonders and open up a whole new world of photography:

- 580 EX
- Extra long ETTL cord (go for the 33 footer)
http://ocfgear.com/cords-for-canon-ettl/ettl-cord-extra-long/
- Speedliter's Handbook: Learning to Craft Light with Canon Speedlites
http://www.amazon.com/Speedliters-Handbook-Learning-Craft-Speedlites/dp/032171105X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2TYPNX0PC1DJI&colid=3FF643HN68I62


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## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

RC said:


> I would seriously reconsider getting a 580 EXII even if you have to wait longer or buy one used. I'm not a flash expert but I've been doing lots of studying and experimenting with flash and have found the 580 to be wonderful not only for its higher GN and features but mainly because of its wireless master function (I have 1 - 580 and 2 - 430s).
> 
> My only body is a 7D which can act as a wireless master but having the option for an off camera master via an extra long ETTL cord makes wireless flash almost limitless. With horse photography (assuming you have horses in the horse barn) I can only image the need for an additional flash and a way to trigger it.
> 
> ...



Why the long cord when the body has inbuilt wireless?


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## wickidwombat (Feb 9, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Positron said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't need TTL then the YN560 (different from the 565 mentioned above) is an amazing choice for about $70. They are serious workhorses with pretty much everything you need (unless you need TTL, of course), and pretty much the only thing I can fault them on is long recharge at full power. At anything below full power it's a non-issue. Very comparable to a 430EX II in what you can do with it, for about 1/3 the price.
> ...


i dont think so that was the major complaint with it they are dirt cheap though and if used in manual with some poverty wizards can get some great results for not alot of money for people starting out with strobe


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## Positron (Feb 10, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Positron said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't need TTL then the YN560 (different from the 565 mentioned above) is an amazing choice for about $70. They are serious workhorses with pretty much everything you need (unless you need TTL, of course), and pretty much the only thing I can fault them on is long recharge at full power. At anything below full power it's a non-issue. Very comparable to a 430EX II in what you can do with it, for about 1/3 the price.
> ...



No, they don't. As far as I know, optical slave/poverty wizards only.


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## SPG (Feb 10, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Why the long cord when the body has inbuilt wireless?



Because it's not actually wireless, but IR which doesn't work very well under sunlight. or without line of sight. or really work that well in general. 
IR is ok in a pinch, but it's really not reliable or versatile enough for everyday use.


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## bonedaddy.p7 (Feb 10, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> these ones willl do high speed sync
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nissin-Speedlite-Di866-Mark-II-Flash-Canon-Digital-Camera-NEW-/280775058735?pt=Digital_Camera_Flashes&hash=item415f7f652f
> but the price is getting up there I think for me i would go to a 430exii over these at this price



I've been looking to get an external flash or 3 as well, and the Nissin Di866MK2 looks pretty nice but I'm a bit puzzled why I don't see more about them, how do they stack up against the 580EXII? I was thinking of having one for on camera and 2 off camera and looking to save as much money while maintaining a decent level of quality and have some flexibility to have some fun with light in the woods at night or to have some..ummm...light light for controlling shots in shadows where a reflector won't just give me enough but I'm not somewhere I can take a full studio light (IE, no AC power)


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## wickidwombat (Feb 10, 2012)

with the cost of the nissins i just decided that the risk of wasting that much money wasnt worth it so just got 580exii s either new or near new second hand if i can pick them up for a good price. i'm always on the lookout for good condition slightly used ones second hand. but they tend to get bid up to silly prices on ebay. might as well buy new ones from digital rev with the prices used ones go for on ebay. I'm also on the lookout for cheap 430exii but same deal often for a few bucks more you can get new ones from reputable ebay sellers


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## RC (Feb 10, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> RC said:
> 
> 
> > I would seriously reconsider getting a 580 EXII even if you have to wait longer or buy one used. I'm not a flash expert but I've been doing lots of studying and experimenting with flash and have found the 580 to be wonderful not only for its higher GN and features but mainly because of its wireless master function (I have 1 - 580 and 2 - 430s).
> ...



Lots and lots of reasons. I didn't realize how valuable this was until I started playing around with wireless flash The key is line of sight between your master and remote. Using your camera as the master really limits your options as where the slave units can be placed. Having the ability to move your master and change angles opens up all kinds of options as to where you place your slaves

For example:
- Firing a flash behind your subject that is out of the line of sight of your camera
- Firing a flash above, behind or anywhere you don't have line of sight
- Shooting into the sun make wireless flash very infective due to signal deterioration. Simply position your master so the sun is behind the master and you have restored effective out door wireless flash
- Maybe you have a couple of slaves outside a window which need to be triggered

The list goes on, if you are serious or just want to learn more, get Syl Arena's book


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Positron said:
> ...



It is hard work to get the lighting right with 3 or 4 flash on eTTL - I am not sure that I would have the patience to try it on manual. I guess fine tuning would be done by adjusting distances.

At the moment I am doing an event where people are dressed in period costume from the 19th century. The clothes are light and dark, shiny and matt. I have a room set up as a studio and I can do a person in about 5-10 minutes as eTTL makes the fine tuning adjustments for me. Not sure that in manual that I would get the productivity.

Here is an example of a 3 flash setup simulating someone by a window which is on the left. In reality the (very small) window is on the right and it gave very low light levels.


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## wickidwombat (Feb 10, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...


actually i started out with manual I find it easier actually to do the calcs in my head to just change the power by moving the flash closer or further away or bumping power up or down. Once you understand how it all works together its pretty easy really and just shoot a bunch of test shots and move stuff around, shoot some more and look at how things change, you will be amazed how much you can learn with a awilling model and a few hours just moving the lighting around to create different effects
ETTL actually complicates thing more because all the flashes take each other into account. 
Sometimes its easier to just switch it all back to manual and have total control over each flash


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> actually i started out with manual I find it easier actually to do the calcs in my head to just change the power by moving the flash closer or further away or bumping power up or down. Once you understand how it all works together its pretty easy really and just shoot a bunch of test shots and move stuff around, shoot some more and look at how things change, you will be amazed how much you can learn with a awilling model and a few hours just moving the lighting around to create different effects
> ETTL actually complicates thing more because all the flashes take each other into account.
> Sometimes its easier to just switch it all back to manual and have total control over each flash



Significant moving of the flash impacts the quality of the light.

Few hours? I did a new lighting set in 15minutes this morning. 

The whole point of eTTL is that they balance all the time - you only have to get them in the right place and they take care of the rest )


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## 7enderbender (Feb 10, 2012)

A few options here without giving up future compatibly within wireless and E-TTL and High Speed Sync:

a) just get a used 580EXII once you can afford it
b) look for the previous model (580EX or maybe even 550EX)
c) same as above for the 430EX series - it's a good flash for most uses, can later serve as a slave; only difference: can't be a Master and the buttons are not as nice as on the 580. I find the exposures actually to be a little more consistent than on my 580.
d) almost exactly the same functionality as the 580EXII but a little cheaper: Metz 58-AF2.

The Metz even has a few little features that are better while maintaining all key important elements (ETTL, HSS, Master and Slave option, etc), e.g the charge confirm beep and that it can be put in a special "group" as the master other than group A. The reason why I decided to buy a 580 instead (even though I've otherwise been a long-time Metz user): the build quality of the Canon appears a little better - but I'm still thinking about adding one of those. Some people don't like the menu - but then again the Canon menu is not very lovable either, is it?


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

7enderbender said:


> A few options here without giving up future compatibly within wireless and E-TTL and High Speed Sync:
> 
> a) just get a used 580EXII once you can afford it
> b) look for the previous model (580EX or maybe even 550EX)
> ...



+1 for option b

I have 1 x 580EXII, 4 x 580EX and 1x 430EXII all bought used.


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## RC (Feb 10, 2012)

To simplify it, use ETTL with moving subjects and manual with static subjects. Of course everything has an exception.


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## briansquibb (Feb 10, 2012)

RC said:


> To simplify it, use ETTL with moving subjects and manual with static subjects. Of course everything has an exception.



... and eTTL with casual models as they cant hold the pose


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## wickidwombat (Feb 11, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > actually i started out with manual I find it easier actually to do the calcs in my head to just change the power by moving the flash closer or further away or bumping power up or down. Once you understand how it all works together its pretty easy really and just shoot a bunch of test shots and move stuff around, shoot some more and look at how things change, you will be amazed how much you can learn with a awilling model and a few hours just moving the lighting around to create different effects
> ...


sorry i wasnt clear enough i didnt mean hours each time it's pretty much a once or twice thing wher eyou jusr move stuff around and play with the light , doesnt take long to work out what works and what doesn't as far as manual setups go. Learning manual lighting is fun and once you get a feel for it its pretty strait forward. And for someone just starting out some manual flashes and cheap poverty wizards are a good place to start without dropping heaps of cash


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## briansquibb (Feb 11, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> sorry i wasnt clear enough i didnt mean hours each time it's pretty much a once or twice thing wher eyou jusr move stuff around and play with the light , doesnt take long to work out what works and what doesn't as far as manual setups go. Learning manual lighting is fun and once you get a feel for it its pretty strait forward. And for someone just starting out some manual flashes and cheap poverty wizards are a good place to start without dropping heaps of cash



8) 8) 8)

Will stay with eTTL and my PW ;D

Am off to a graveyard to shoot some Dickens reenactment shots of Great Expectations with the first meeting of Pip and Magwitch. So it will be time to hide speedlights behind gravestones and fire by wireless


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## MazV-L (Feb 11, 2012)

In my experience, the Canon speedlites are far superior to the YN flashes, I bought one (can't remember model, but was abt size of 430ex) some time ago when I only had the 430ex(Au$120 2nd hand) tried to use it off camera with ST-E2, the YN is far inferior at picking up the IR( it takes forever to find a place/angle that it will work off-camera) than the Canons and just gives a cheap and nasty impression, I wasn't happy with it at all so I gave it away, and bought a 2nd hand 550ex(abt Au$70, and 2x 580exii in as new condition for abt $350 each) and I still have my original 430ex. 550ex is a bit bulky but otherwise I have no complaints regarding my Canon speedlites and would recommend them 

The YN didn't have an LCD like the Canon's do either and less functions.


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