# popup-flash - made a "pro feature"?



## Pitbullo (Aug 13, 2014)

We have all seen the discussions, about why popup-flash is left out on the pro bodies from Canon. Those in favour of leaving it out says it is because it can break, and it is not a "pro feature". Those in favour of a popup-flash on the other hand just say, if you dont like it, dont use it, but it is great for a fill-in, it has its place. 


Now, lets say those against the popup-flash are right, and we all have to sell our equipment and find another hobby if Canon implements them in their pro bodies. ;D
What can Canon do to make the popup more attractive? Why dont they make a popup-flash into a "pro" popup? Any ideas? One thing I like with my wifes NEX-6 is that it can be directed upwards and be bounced. Is this something for Canon?

All ideas are welcome, what would make a popup/integrated flash a "pro" style flash?


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## Lee Jay (Aug 13, 2014)

Integrated optical remote master, integrated radio master too, HSS, and the ability to tip/tilt the thing for a bit of bounce.


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## Pitbullo (Aug 13, 2014)

I totally agree with the optical master. Too bad the speedlites dont have this feature. Would be nice to have.


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## AcutancePhotography (Aug 13, 2014)

How hard would it be to make the pop-up flash IR only? Or perhaps have a built in IR filter one can flip on and off?


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## dancook (Aug 13, 2014)

Isn't a point about pop up flash and articulating screens not being on pro cameras because it affects sealing, and sealing is deemed more important than these features for pros?

maybe


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## bseitz234 (Aug 13, 2014)

Um, is it just me, or aren't canon's popup flashes already optical masters? I don't think they'd add a popup flash to the 5d4 and remove that capability.... 

IMO "pro" would be radio master, but that doesn't require a flash. That can just be built into the body. At this point, any pros who haven't gone to the radio system are probably pretty well invested in the optical system, and have a master that works for them, I don't think adding a built-in master would add a whole lot of appeal. Heck, I usually use a 580 as a master anyway, it's got better range and can do HSS, which the 7d popup can't. 

What else could they do? Make it waterproof, so it doesn't compromise weather sealing at all? I can't see any way they can make it as powerful as a 430, but that would help...


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 13, 2014)

Pitbullo said:


> We have all seen the discussions, about why popup-flash is left out on the pro bodies from Canon. Those in favour of leaving it out says it is because it can break, and it is not a "pro feature".



Is the 6D a 'pro body'? 

IMO, it's a marketing decision. Canon wants your money. FF bodies (from Canon) don't have a popup flash. FF bodies cost more. Canon figures if you need a flash and can afford a FF body, you can afford a Speedlite.


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## Lee Jay (Aug 13, 2014)

bseitz234 said:


> Um, is it just me, or aren't canon's popup flashes already optical masters?



Some are.



> IMO "pro" would be radio master, but that doesn't require a flash.



But it would be nice to have both, which was my point.



> That can just be built into the body. At this point, any pros who haven't gone to the radio system are probably pretty well invested in the optical system, and have a master that works for them, I don't think adding a built-in master would add a whole lot of appeal.



It does for me, specifically so that I don't have to "waste" a flash on the camera when I'm not using it to light the subject. One less large flash to own and to carry.


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## Pitbullo (Aug 13, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Pitbullo said:
> 
> 
> > We have all seen the discussions, about why popup-flash is left out on the pro bodies from Canon. Those in favour of leaving it out says it is because it can break, and it is not a "pro feature".
> ...



The 6D is pro in the sense that it is full frame, demanding EF-lenses. Which sure sell at pro prices 

If it is a marketing descition, it sure is not a good one (IMHO). Portability is more and more an argument being used, with all the mirrorless cameras making their entry into the full frame market (Sony). Lugging around a speedlite in adition to a big dSLR is... annoying. Yet another thing to bring along. 

I think it would be wise to implement a popup flash in the 5D4 (and/or 1DxII), and make it special, not just a simple popup. Like others have said, HSS, flip/tilt functionality etc.


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## Pitbullo (Aug 13, 2014)

dancook said:


> Isn't a point about pop up flash and articulating screens not being on pro cameras because it affects sealing, and sealing is deemed more important than these features for pros?
> 
> maybe


I am sure they can overcome this if they want to. Others have!


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## TexPhoto (Aug 13, 2014)

One reason "pro" cameras don't have it, is the prism in the pro camera is generally much larger. Looking through my 5DIII and then my 7D, is like going from a 60 inch HDTV to walmart laptop screen. 

If you look at the bump that is under the pop-up flash you will realize how small the prism is in there, vs a "pro" camera. Of couse you could put a large pup-up on a pro camera, but it might look so large and bulbus as to be silly.

All that said, I like the pop-up on my 7D and use it from time to time.


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## Pitbullo (Aug 13, 2014)

TexPhoto said:


> One reason "pro" cameras don't have it, is the prism in the pro camera is generally much larger. Looking through my 5DIII and then my 7D, is like going from a 60 inch HDTV to walmart laptop screen.
> 
> If you look at the bump that is under the pop-up flash you will realize how small the prism is in there, vs a "pro" camera. Of couse you could put a large pup-up on a pro camera, but it might look so large and bulbus as to be silly.
> 
> All that said, I like the pop-up on my 7D and use it from time to time.



The VF is a good reason for not putting a popup. Perhaps they could put the flash on some other part of the body? On one of the sides for instance?(to the left for the "bulk".


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 13, 2014)

TexPhoto said:


> One reason "pro" cameras don't have it, is the prism in the pro camera is generally much larger. Looking through my 5DIII and then my 7D, is like going from a 60 inch HDTV to walmart laptop screen.
> 
> If you look at the bump that is under the pop-up flash you will realize how small the prism is in there, vs a "pro" camera. Of couse you could put a large pup-up on a pro camera, but it might look so large and bulbus as to be silly.



To me, the explanation of the size of the pentaprism doesn't make a lot of sense... Compare these two full frame cameras:

5DIII viewfinder = 100% coverage at 0.71x
D810 viewfinder = 100% coverage at 0.70x


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## pdirestajr (Aug 13, 2014)

I've seen Joe McNally use a pop up flash as an optical trigger. He is a professional photographer. Cameras aren't professionals


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 13, 2014)

It does seem to boil down to marketing, or the chief designers idea of when and where to add a flash.

Certainly, a flash reduces overall camera reliability, they are probably the most common failure I see on used DSLR's, but that's not really a good enough excuse.

On a 1 series body where weather resistance is a prime factor, a flash will likely not happen, but on a wedding camera like a 5D MK III, there is no real excuse except marketing or design philosophy. I think its the latter, because a $2 built-in flash would return its costs in sales.


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## David Hull (Aug 13, 2014)

dancook said:


> Isn't a point about pop up flash and articulating screens not being on pro cameras because it affects sealing, and sealing is deemed more important than these features for pros?
> 
> maybe


That's what I always thought their reasoning to be. But I think beyond that, they more or less expect that the people who buy those expensive, fancy bodies also have expensive, fancy lighting equipment (high end speedlights, strobes, etc.).

I remember going to a Canon event and asking this same question and the demo guy took the 1D and 5D, separated the out and said "these are our pro cameras" they don't have PU flash because we don't consider that to be a pro feature". FWIW, he said exactly the same thing at that same time regarding Auto ISO which now DOES appear in those cameras so -- go figure .


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## 9VIII (Aug 13, 2014)

Direct light coming off the camera is horrendous.
I honestly can't think of a useful way to use a pop-up flash (other than blinding people in dark rooms so that you can run away).


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 13, 2014)

9VIII said:


> Direct light coming off the camera is horrendous.
> I honestly can't think of a useful way to use a pop-up flash (other than blinding people in dark rooms so that you can run away).



Fill flash?


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## Pitbullo (Aug 13, 2014)

9VIII said:


> Direct light coming off the camera is horrendous.
> I honestly can't think of a useful way to use a pop-up flash (other than blinding people in dark rooms so that you can run away).



Bounce it off the celing?


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## agierke (Aug 13, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Direct light coming off the camera is horrendous.
> ...



It's still the worst place for light to come from regardless if its the primary light source or fill. In every conceivable circumstance i would want my fill coming from off camera..even if its slightly off axis.

To me pop up flash doesnt belong on the pro bodies simply because of the location in which the light is coming from (directly above lens). The optical master argument is a thin one, every flash is an optical master (which is the problem with optical triggering...you cant prevent other sources from triggering your strobes).

Would having a pop up flash on the 5d or 1dx bother me even if I never used it? Yes. Those things inevitably and stupidly seem to end up popping up on their own causing distraction and getting in the way.

Count me firmly in the camp of pop up flash hater.


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## DominoDude (Aug 13, 2014)

I can't say that I hate pop-up flash. I have it and on occasion I use it, but I'm certainly no big fan of it. Putting a pop-up flash on a pro body would make me look for alternatives. It's hard to imagine such a flash, with a GN high enough, and without putting a severe penalty on the numbers of shots the battery would last. The current ways of positioning pop-up flash also leaves a little more to be desired - it's awfully close to the optical axle, and can't be swirled or tilted.

I'd rather save up to an old style hammerhead flash from Metz, than go with a built-in flash on pro bodies.


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## tolusina (Aug 13, 2014)

Only slightly less convenient than a pop up is a 90EX in your pocket, same limited range, same harsh shadows, same optical trigger capability.
I keep one in my kit for those occasions where my photos only need to demonstrate I was there, I saw, verified, recorded and reported. Most of these aren't pretty but they are concisely descriptive.
Most of this work I can shoot without flash, just crank the 6D's ISO up, by the time I've resized down to the clients' 800x533 spec, noise in barely apparent.

Also in my kit is an ST-E3-RT and one or two 600EX-RTs for times when more elaborate lighting is needed, like maybe I want a nice photo rather than a just banal snapshot.

I doubt we'll see radio control built into camera bodies, each market would need its own version according to local regulations.
---
Terry Richardson is one, so called, pro who's signature style is on camera flash. I suspect a portion of his success and marketability is due to his subjects more than his style. 
How he succeeds as a pro is beyond me, even more mysterious than Gursky though I surely don't mean to draw any parallels between the two, their work or their work ethics.
---



neuroanatomist said:


> ....
> 
> Is the 6D a 'pro body'? ....


Are you implying it's not?


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## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 13, 2014)

Pitbullo said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Pitbullo said:
> ...



ummm...there are tons of EF lens that aren't pro or at pro prices....the 50mm 1.8 is EF...it's $100!!!!! L lenses are pro build with pro price tags.....not all EF's are L's...


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## Pitbullo (Aug 13, 2014)

DominoDude said:


> I can't say that I hate pop-up flash. I have it and on occasion I use it, but I'm certainly no big fan of it. Putting a pop-up flash on a pro body would make me look for alternatives. It's hard to imagine such a flash, with a GN high enough, and without putting a severe penalty on the numbers of shots the battery would last. The current ways of positioning pop-up flash also leaves a little more to be desired - it's awfully close to the optical axle, and can't be swirled or tilted.
> 
> I'd rather save up to an old style hammerhead flash from Metz, than go with a built-in flash on pro bodies.



You hit the nail on the head here! 
The flash cant be bounced or directed any other way than straight ahead. That is why I started this thread. What would make a popup-flash good enough to earn aplace on a pro body. I got the idea from my wifes little Sony NEX-6. There the flash can be bounced from the celing. Brilliant!!


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## Don Haines (Aug 13, 2014)

Pitbullo said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Direct light coming off the camera is horrendous.
> ...



put a sheet of tissue paper (Kleenex or toilet tissue) over the pop-up flash....it does wonders to soften the light


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## Sporgon (Aug 13, 2014)

agierke said:


> Count me firmly in the camp of pop up flash hater.



+1, check me into that camp. I have no objections to them being fitted to an appropriate body, but IMO this just doesn't include any expensive, well built camera that has a solid integrity. If you want to have casual, direct fill in flash or even general flash, OK, but why on earth bother wasting your money on expensive and sophisticated cameras for what you are doing ? 

Pop up flashes are weak both physically and in output. They can't HSS which can be very important for fill, especially with fast lenses. They can't bounce. 

I think Canon's attitude is 'if you're spending all this money on a body, and want FF instead of APS when the difference is only seen by the connoisseur what do you want pop up flash for anyway ?'

Nikon. Now Nikon are just trying to ensure absolutely nothing is left off the camera where people might pass it by.

There will be those who say 'I want an expensive camera but a cheap trigger / crap fill' but it looks like they are in the minority as far as Canon is concerned.

Really hope the 7DII doesn't have PUF.

Just seen the comment by the OP; trouble is it is far too weak to be much practical use, certainly a mile from 'pro'. 

Don's tissue does work well but doesn't overcome the most pressing limitations.


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 13, 2014)

agierke said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...



I don't like pop up flash much either, especially because of the shadow cast by big(ger) lenses.

I don't make use of it much, but here's fill flash at work from the hotshoe (Metz Mecablitz 48 external flash). The twinkle in the eyes and definition in the face would definitely not have happened without the flash. Note that the shadows aren't pushed in PP for this shot.


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## surapon (Aug 13, 2014)

Dear Friends.
Sorry, I am not the PRO, But some of my Canon DSLR have Pop-Up Flash---Yes, It most useful for Fill - in light when The sun at the back of subject---BUT I must use my DIY White paper as the photos below, or Use my Clean tissue in my pant pocket cover the Pop-Up flash and tie down with rubber band.
Yes, Cheap and work for me , But for Fill flash/ Pop up flash with white paper cover must to be 4-5 feet distant from the Lens to the face of portrait model----Yes, Instead of cheap white copy paper, We can use the Wax Paper or Translusive Drafting Paper too= Yes It work better than White Copy Paper at the longer distant from the subject.
Yes, I have a great Boss/ Great Architect ( for 5 Years during 1975 to 1980),who Teach me = " The Great Architects same as the Great Chef , who can use the Chicken's S--t to make a great Chicken Salads"---Yes, Some time Useless Pop-up flash can be the Life saving Photos for the photographers like us, if we know how to use them.

Enjoy.
Surapon


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 13, 2014)

tolusina said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Is the 6D a 'pro body'?
> ...


Does Canon Europe consider the 6D to be 'for professionals'?

http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/professional/

http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/enthusiasts/

Note that whether or not Canon considers a body to be 'pro' has no relevance to what photographer uses it. Plenty of professional photographers use xxD bodies, and I hear there are even some enthusiasts that use a 1D X.


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## surapon (Aug 13, 2014)

Architects same as the Great Chef , who can use the Chicken's S___ to make a great Chicken Salads"---Yes, Some time Useless Pop-up flash can be the Life saving Photos for the photographers like us, if we know how to use them.
Enjoy
Surapon

PS, All Photos are no Post processing , except reduce the size to fit below 1 MB.


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## scottkinfw (Aug 13, 2014)

Nice post Surapon.

One time I was out shooting and sadly, my flash died. I was glad that my 50D had a pop up to catch a Dik Dik in the shadows, which I otherwise would have missed. 

sek




surapon said:


> Dear Friends.
> Sorry, I am not the PRO, But some of my Canon DSLR have Pop-Up Flash---Yes, It most use full Fill - in light when The sun at the back of subject---BUT I must use my DIY White paper as the photos below, or Use my Clean tissue in my pant pocket cover the Pop-Up flash and tie down with rubber band.
> Yes, Cheap and work for me , But for Fill flash/ Pop up flash with white paper cover must to be 4-5 feet distant from the Lens to the face of portrait model----Yes, Instead of cheap white copy paper, We can use the Wax Paper or Translusive Drafting Paper too= Yes It work better than White Copy Paper at the longer distant from the subject.
> Yes, I have a great Boss/ Great Architect ( for 5 Years during 1975 to 1980),who Teach me = " The Great Architects same as the Great Chef , who can use the Chicken's S--t to make a great Chicken Salads"---Yes, Some time Useless Pop-up flash can be the Life saving Photos for the photographers like us, if we know how to use them.
> ...


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## tolusina (Aug 13, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> tolusina said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


Irrelevant how the manufacturer or seller classifies a product, it's the consumer who determines its actual use.

Both sides of the coin (the links you posted) work too as you've so eloquently noted, non-pros buy Canon classified pro bodies with no apparent ill effects, no law suits, no jail time for daring to use pro gear for personal use.

Of course, if one is a corporate shill like the Samsung rep I encountered yesterday, corporate knows best, end users should compliantly and placidly accept corporate edicts with no question.


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## sagittariansrock (Aug 13, 2014)

I sincerely can't accept the reasoning of those who want 'no pop up flash' as opposed to merely not wanting them.

The weather-sealing is a total marketing BS. The D810, which is 'heavily weather-sealed' has a pop-up flash. As it is, the 5DIII isn't as weather sealed as the 1D cameras, and the 6D is sealed even less.

The rigidity issue is also hard to swallow. They could just use stronger materials. 

As Neuro said, it is all about marketing and selling shoe-mount flashes.

Now, to those who say pop-up flashes are terrible, there is a nice solution called the Lightscoop (you can Google it). I got it for free with my 600EX (imagine the irony, as this thing only works with pop-up flashes), but tested it with a friend's camera. Here are the results- the room was completely dark, about 12' x 12' with 9' ceiling, and the flash was the only source of light.


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## Timothy_Bruce (Aug 13, 2014)

On the 7D I use the build in flash only to trigger speedlights,but that works great in most indoor an macro situations.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 13, 2014)

tolusina said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Note that whether or not Canon considers a body to be 'pro' has no relevance to what photographer uses it.
> ...



Thanks for rephrasing my statement.




tolusina said:


> Of course, if one is a corporate shill like the Samsung rep I encountered yesterday, corporate knows best, end users should compliantly and placidly accept corporate edicts with no question.



Speaking of relevance, does this have any?

Regardless, the point of the thread is to suggest that Canon omits the popup flash from 'pro bodies', and my point is that Canon (at least, one of their major divisions) doesn't consider the 6D to be a pro body, yet it lacks a popup flash.


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## jdramirez (Aug 13, 2014)

Pop up flash is quite low on my priority list. Give me integrated rf triggering with second curtain and I'm a happy camper. Want a built in flash alternative, get a 90ex for the instances where you need a flash. Fifty bucks... done.


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## Lee Jay (Aug 14, 2014)

agierke said:


> It's still the worst place for light to come from regardless if its the primary light source or fill.



If that were true, no one would use ring lights. But they do.


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## wickidwombat (Aug 14, 2014)

make it a bit bigger and more powerfull this would kill battery life but hey cant have your cake and eat it
and include the ability to tilt 90 degrees to be able to bounce


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## agierke (Aug 14, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> agierke said:
> 
> 
> > It's still the worst place for light to come from regardless if its the primary light source or fill.
> ...



when a ring light is used the light is coming from top, bottom, right and left of the lens position creating a unique look entirely different than the look from a pop up flash. you cant be serious with that post...



surapon said:


> Architects same as the Great Chef , who can use the Chicken's S___ to make a great Chicken Salads"---Yes, Some time Useless Pop-up flash can be the Life saving Photos for the photographers like us, if we know how to use them.
> Enjoy
> Surapon
> 
> PS, All Photos are no Post processing , except reduce the size to fit below 1 MB.



with all due deference to your ingenuity surapon, the quality of light from your fill flash is still poor. you can season chicken S___ as much as you like....its still chicken S___ that you are eating.

regardless of how you spin it, quality of light has a great deal with the direction it is coming from. directly over the lens is about the least desirable position for light to come from. size, intensity and ability to shape your light source also contribute to quality of light and pop up flash fails to achieve any merit in any of these criteria.

photography quite literally translates to "writing with light". understanding quality of light and how to manipulate it is paramount for professional photography. a pop up flash is so far on the other side of desirable that its hard to put into words. put it this way...once one is introduced to lighting, lesson #1 is get the light off the camera.

sry, i just can't fathom anyone that is remotely serious about lighting defending a pop up flash on a professional level body.


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## jdramirez (Aug 14, 2014)

agierke said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > agierke said:
> ...



Are we talking about gizzards? Gizzards are gross. My grandparents used to claim that they were the same thing as nuggets... damn liars.


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## benperrin (Aug 14, 2014)

Another user here that is firmly in the camp of don't put a pop-up flash on my camera. Even for fill there are better alternatives.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 14, 2014)

Pitbullo said:


> We have all seen the discussions, about why popup-flash is left out on the pro bodies from Canon. Those in favour of leaving it out says it is because it can break, and it is not a "pro feature". Those in favour of a popup-flash on the other hand just say, if you dont like it, dont use it, but it is great for a fill-in, it has its place.
> 
> 
> Now, lets say those against the popup-flash are right, and we all have to sell our equipment and find another hobby if Canon implements them in their pro bodies. ;D
> ...



All ideas may be welcome, but the correct idea is BRING IT ON!!!! pop-up for the pros!


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 14, 2014)

9VIII said:


> Direct light coming off the camera is horrendous.
> I honestly can't think of a useful way to use a pop-up flash (other than blinding people in dark rooms so that you can run away).



a little fill? happen upon a tree frog at night while walking back? etc.


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## dgatwood (Aug 14, 2014)

agierke said:


> photography quite literally translates to "writing with light". understanding quality of light and how to manipulate it is paramount for professional photography. a pop up flash is so far on the other side of desirable that its hard to put into words. put it this way...once one is introduced to lighting, lesson #1 is get the light off the camera.



In a professional shooting situation, you'd probably never use one, but most folks don't use their cameras exclusively for pro photo shoots. Which brings us to lesson #2.

Lesson #2 is that the best light is the one you have with you.... So even though pop-up flashes suck compared with dedicated flashes, if they're all you have with you at the time, they're still better than nothing. A lot better.


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## Lee Jay (Aug 14, 2014)

agierke said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > agierke said:
> ...



Frankly, I think popups look better. Ring lights give people that look of being an alien because of that donut shaped catch light.

I have umbrellas, off camera flashes and modifiers, and I still think an on-camera flash is often better than no flash for controlling scene contrast and adding a natural looking catch light. I even added a tiny hot-shoe mounted flash to my 5D because of the missing popup. But it's a pain and not as consistent in illumination level as the popup on my crop camera.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 14, 2014)

Has Canon ever released a larger-sensor-than-APS-C dSLR with a popup flash? The pipe dreams of a few nostalgic APS-H lovers notwithstanding, the 7DII will be APS-C. Has Canon ever released an APS-C dSLR without a popup flash?


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## dgatwood (Aug 14, 2014)

tolusina said:


> Of course, if one is a corporate shill like the Samsung rep I encountered yesterday, corporate knows best, end users should compliantly and placidly accept corporate edicts with no question.



Samsung has reps? 




neuroanatomist said:


> Regardless, the point of the thread is to suggest that Canon omits the popup flash from 'pro bodies', and my point is that Canon (at least, one of their major divisions) doesn't consider the 6D to be a pro body, yet it lacks a popup flash.



It counts towards CPS. As far as I'm concerned, that makes it a pro body. 




Lee Jay said:


> Frankly, I think popups look better. Ring lights give people that look of being an alien because of that donut shaped catch light.



I never would have even thought of using one except for macro work. Yeah, those are seriously weird looking....


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## Don Haines (Aug 14, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Has Canon ever released an APS-C dSLR without a popup flash?


EOS-M


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 14, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Regardless, the point of the thread is to suggest that Canon omits the popup flash from 'pro bodies', and my point is that Canon (at least, one of their major divisions) doesn't consider the 6D to be a pro body, yet it lacks a popup flash.
> ...



So does the 60Da.  Are the EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro and EF-S 17-85mm 'pro lenses'? :

Actually, in the EU the 6D is only good for CPS Silver, it does not count for the higher levels.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 14, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Has Canon ever released an APS-C *dSLR* without a popup flash?
> ...



Care to try again? Or maybe Canon left the Reflex mirror (that thing that's the 'R' in dSLR) out of my EOS-M by accident...does yours have one?


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## Don Haines (Aug 14, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


That's why the smiley face.... I think the EOS-M is as close as they have come....


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## Lee Jay (Aug 14, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly, I think popups look better. Ring lights give people that look of being an alien because of that donut shaped catch light.
> ...



Seriously. (Not mine).

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/jaylightphotography/6383548691/


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## 9VIII (Aug 14, 2014)

Yes Neuro, fill flash does sound like the one and only thing that you could legitimately do with an on camera flash (I don't even think cameras should have a hot-shoe).
That said, of the few lighting tutorials I've seen, pretty much all of them do nothing but drill into your brain that PUF is bad.

The RT is out, it's amazing, why look back?



sagittariansrock said:


> Now, to those who say pop-up flashes are terrible, there is a nice solution called the Lightscoop (you can Google it).



I think a key point can be drawn here. You have a solution, but having a solution by definition means having a problem (unless you're in government). The pop up flash is inherently a problem.



Lee Jay said:


> agierke said:
> 
> 
> > It's still the worst place for light to come from regardless if its the primary light source or fill.
> ...



I thought ring lights were for macro stuff where the subject is virtually pressed against the lens and just getting any light on it can be a challenge?


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## 9VIII (Aug 14, 2014)

Surapon your post is still awesome, I'm definitely going to be throwing napkins and stuff on people's cameras in future.


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## sagittariansrock (Aug 14, 2014)

9VIII said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > Now, to those who say pop-up flashes are terrible, there is a nice solution called the Lightscoop (you can Google it).
> ...



Oh, I agree it's a problem. I used it a handful of times when I had APS-C cameras, even when I didn't have Speedlites. The only time I used my 7D pop-up flash after that was to trigger the optical slave.
But, it is better than nothing. And the Lightscoop makes it actually usable.


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## Sporgon (Aug 14, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Has Canon ever released a larger-sensor-than-APS-C dSLR with a popup flash? The pipe dreams of a few nostalgic APS-H lovers notwithstanding, the 7DII will be APS-C. Has Canon ever released an APS-C dSLR without a popup flash?



There's always a first time. Bring on the 7DII


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## Lawliet (Aug 14, 2014)

9VIII said:


> I thought ring lights were for macro stuff where the subject is virtually pressed against the lens and just getting any light on it can be a challenge?



Have you ever looked at studio strobes? You get ringlights from all brands, and they aren't excactly useable for macro work.


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## 9VIII (Aug 15, 2014)

Lawliet said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > I thought ring lights were for macro stuff where the subject is virtually pressed against the lens and just getting any light on it can be a challenge?
> ...



I think you're talking about something that falls under the category of "off camera flash" much better than "on camera flash" which is the subject of this thread.


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## Lee Jay (Aug 15, 2014)

9VIII said:


> Lawliet said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...



On-camera.

http://www.paulcbuff.com/abr800.php


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## Joe M (Aug 15, 2014)

I doubt the popup flash could ever be made into something that could be called "pro" or at the very least, " lighting of _not_ last resort". I admit there are gizmos out there that claim to make the light better (by scattering it to the winds) but it will always be something of last resort to most. To make it "pro", you'd need to increase the area greatly, popup much much higher, swivel it, and increase the battery size immensely (if you were to use it to any degree other than for, you guessed it, a few shots of last resort. 
I used the popup on the 7d a few times to optically trigger some 580s I had at the time. So that's where my thoughts come from, is that I personally did not find any use for the popups as flashes. Others may but I have no issues with Canon leaving them off the 5 series.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 15, 2014)

9VIII said:


> The pop up flash is inherently a problem.



So something that can be of use is inherently a problem?
Many people don't run around external flashes all the time and as they say happens and when it does it's nice to have that flash always with you.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 15, 2014)

agierke said:


> photography quite literally translates to "writing with light". understanding quality of light and how to manipulate it is paramount for professional photography. a pop up flash is so far on the other side of desirable that its hard to put into words. put it this way...once one is introduced to lighting, lesson #1 is get the light off the camera.
> 
> sry, i just can't fathom anyone that is remotely serious about lighting defending a pop up flash on a professional level body.



Seriously? And pray tell how is no flash at all whatsoever better and more artistic "writing in light" when you come upon, by pure chance, a tree frog at night and don't have the bulky external flash with you? Pitch black is "writing with light" and pop-up flash is less so?

Pray tell what happens when you happen to get a random call that they need someone to quick shoot so and so with the Stanley Cup in the outdoor stadium with subjects backlit and there was no time to go get a flash or another camera or whatnot? It's better writing with light to have nasty backlit shots than a little fill from the pop up? There were two guys who got there in time, one with a 1 series and one with an xxD, neither had an external flash with them. Guess which guy's shot got published. Yeah, NOT the guy with the 1 series.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 15, 2014)

benperrin said:


> Another user here that is firmly in the camp of don't put a pop-up flash on my camera. Even for fill there are better alternatives.



There is no alternative if you don't have one with you.
Why the heck does the darn little flash hurt you guys so much? It won't break if you don;t use it. The fact you are worried about breaking almost hints that they you think you might find a use for it at times. And how does it break more easily than an external flash? If it breaks and you didn't want it anyway, who cares?
And NO it doesn't make you look like a cool, real pro to have no pop-up.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 15, 2014)

What if you don't want to lug a flash around all over but then you end up wanting a few snapshots with fill on some trip with friends, etc. etc. Why should the 5D users get WORSE results than the Rebel user??


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## 9VIII (Aug 15, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > The pop up flash is inherently a problem.
> ...



You could also use explosives to exterminate pests from your house...


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 15, 2014)

On this topic (an a little off it as well), please recommend a little external flash that I can use for fill-flash on a 5D series body when traveling. I currently have a Metz Mecablitz 48 AF-1 that's great but way too big for that purpose.


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## 9VIII (Aug 15, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Lawliet said:
> ...



Fantastic, have fun with that on your next vacation.


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 15, 2014)

9VIII said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...



What cracks me up is "It is extremely compact, lightweight ...." ;D ;D ;D


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## RLPhoto (Aug 15, 2014)

Well my H3D II has a pop up flash.  I guess that makes it an entry level camera.


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## AcutancePhotography (Aug 15, 2014)

If I think I need some flash, even fill flash, I generally carry an external flash. If it is close to the camera I use cords and if further away, I like to use the optical control via pop-up flash. I have shot fill flash using the Pop-up flash and it is not bad. In my opinion, any situtation where I could use pop-up flash for fill flash, I could have gotten a better result using an external flash

but......

There have been times when I was glad my camera had a pop-up flash. One time, in particular, I was on a day trip. I packed my camera but no flashes. We happened to visit a museum. A bit dark, even bumping up the ISO. I was glad my camera had pop-up flash. Yeah, it was not the optimum light source, but that was all I had. It was either take a shot with a pop-up flash or not take the picture. Since I was not taking anything particulary artistic, the pop-up flash was better than nothing. 

When it comes to pop-up flash: I would rather have it and not need it; than to need it and not have it. 

Was there not some famous photographer guy who once said that "the best flash is the one you have with you?" ;D


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## eli72 (Aug 15, 2014)

mrsfotografie said:


> On this topic (an a little off it as well), please recommend a little external flash that I can use for fill-flash on a 5D series body when traveling. I currently have a Metz Mecablitz 48 AF-1 that's great but way too big for that purpose.



The 270EX II is relatively small, sits low on top of the camera, and has some bounce capability as well. Uses 2AA batteries. Obviously, it suffers from the same issues as a pop-up flash - not very powerful and close enough to the lens that redeye can be a problem. But if you don't want to pack a 600EX-RT, it's small enough to carry easily when you might just need a little light.


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## jdramirez (Aug 15, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> benperrin said:
> 
> 
> > Another user here that is firmly in the camp of don't put a pop-up flash on my camera. Even for fill there are better alternatives.
> ...



I didn't use the built in flash on my 60d and when I went to sell the body the flash wouldn't open. 

It was an easy enough fix... I had to bend a hot shoe metal piece back...

But it did break... despite not using it.


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## eli72 (Aug 15, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Was there not some famous photographer guy who once said that "the best flash is the one you have with you?" ;D



Or, as Wayne Gretzky once pointed out in a different context, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 15, 2014)

eli72 said:


> mrsfotografie said:
> 
> 
> > On this topic (an a little off it as well), please recommend a little external flash that I can use for fill-flash on a 5D series body when traveling. I currently have a Metz Mecablitz 48 AF-1 that's great but way too big for that purpose.
> ...



Cool, I was looking at the Metz 24 AF-1, but it doesn't have high speed sync which is a deal breaker for me. How about the 270EX II, does it have HSS?


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## eli72 (Aug 15, 2014)

mrsfotografie said:


> eli72 said:
> 
> 
> > mrsfotografie said:
> ...



If you have a camera that has external flash control (e.g., 1Dx, 5D Mark III, 5D Mark II), you can set HSS on the 270EXII through the camera menu. Of course, depending on how high you set the shutter speed, you will cut down on the range significantly.


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 15, 2014)

eli72 said:


> mrsfotografie said:
> 
> 
> > eli72 said:
> ...



Thanks for your help. As you can see in my signature, my Canon bodies do have that ability so the 270EXII has now made it to my shopping list


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## eli72 (Aug 16, 2014)

mrsfotografie said:


> eli72 said:
> 
> 
> > mrsfotografie said:
> ...



Stofen also makes a flash diffuser for the 270EXII in case you want to use it with the bounce feature. http://www.adorama.com/SFOMEV.html


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 16, 2014)

eli72 said:


> mrsfotografie said:
> 
> 
> > eli72 said:
> ...



Thank you, yes I will probably want that (I have Stofen diffuser for my Metz, too).


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## benperrin (Aug 16, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> benperrin said:
> 
> 
> > Another user here that is firmly in the camp of don't put a pop-up flash on my camera. Even for fill there are better alternatives.
> ...



I don't know why you're having a go at me over expressing my opinion. I really don't care about a popup flash breaking as I'd never ever use it. It's something I don't ever want to have popup in the middle of a shoot or to ever worry about and as far as I'm concerned that space could be used for something more beneficial that I would actually need. I understand it's use on entry level bodies but once I discovered off camera lighting (including reflectors) or even bounce flash I really couldn't see a reason why something so harsh and direct should ever be included in a pro body. 

P.S. This is just my opinion and I have no problems with people finding a valid use for the popup flash. If you think it is absolutely critical to your work then I'll respect your point of view on the matter.


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## Sporgon (Aug 16, 2014)

benperrin said:


> P.S. This is just my opinion and I have no problems with people finding a valid use for the popup flash. If you think it is absolutely critical to your work then I'll respect your point of view on the matter.



Fortunately it is the same opinion as many others - including Canon 

I'm putting money on the 7DII not having one.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 16, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> benperrin said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. This is just my opinion and I have no problems with people finding a valid use for the popup flash. If you think it is absolutely critical to your work then I'll respect your point of view on the matter.
> ...



I sort of disagree. If it's a 7D Mark II priced south of $2K, I think it'll have a popup flash. If it's a 7D X priced north of $2K, I can see them omitting the PUF.


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## benperrin (Aug 16, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> Fortunately it is the same opinion as many others - including Canon
> 
> I'm putting money on the 7DII not having one.



That's one thing I'm not so sure on. It could go either way. It'll sure be interesting though to see what specs are actually correct and let's face it, it's a lot of fun to guess


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## mrsfotografie (Aug 16, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> benperrin said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. This is just my opinion and I have no problems with people finding a valid use for the popup flash. If you think it is absolutely critical to your work then I'll respect your point of view on the matter.
> ...



Given that it is likely to be an aps-c camera, the smallish prism leaves room for a flash to fill up the room given by the professional bulge on top of the camera. So I think it will have the popup again.


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## Old Sarge (Aug 16, 2014)

I expect the 7D MK II, if it is announced, will have a pop up flash (also expect it in $2300.00 neighborhood) and I like them though it won't be a deal breaker for me. I appreciate the suggestion of the 270 as a substitute and will probably buy one if necessary


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