# Shutter count request to Canon.



## shannon76 (Sep 29, 2012)

I just sent this question to Canon today. What's the general opinion on why Canon hasn't added shutter count to the camera's firmware or EOS Utility?

_Hello,
A couple days ago I had to pay $1.59 to a website called eoscount.com to check my shutter count. The website has you accept an add-on for Internet Explorer which could very easily be a virus for all we know. The owner of the site, Sergey Vasilevskiy, may be a fine upstanding programmer for all we know. However, does Canon think this is an acceptable way for customers to get information from their expensive DSLR cameras??? We are risking the security of our computers by going to outside websites for this software. Canon's EOS Utility could very easily provide this information if programmed to. So what is the problem? The only acceptable answer to this is Canon is going to add this functionality to the EOS Utility in the next version. The only reason I can see for Canon not adding this functionality is because they are hiding something. So how does Canon respond to this request that shouldn't even be a request?_


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 29, 2012)

Canon's response:

_Thank you for your inquiry. You can send your camera to the nearest Canon Service Center, and we will happily report the shutter count to you, the charge will be approximately 100x what you paid to the website. Alternatively, you may choose to purchase a camera such as the EOS 1D X, which reports the shutter count on the system status menu of the camera._

Why do you want to know?


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## shannon76 (Sep 29, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon's response:
> 
> _Thank you for your inquiry. You can send your camera to the nearest Canon Service Center, and we will happily report the shutter count to you, the charge will be approximately 100x what you paid to the website. Alternatively, you may choose to purchase a camera such as the EOS 1D X, which reports the shutter count on the system status menu of the camera._
> 
> Why do you want to know?


Why wouldn't I want to know? If your car didn't come with an odometer would you be ok with that? lol


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## jrista (Sep 29, 2012)

shannon76 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Canon's response:
> ...



Much like a car's odometer, a shutter actuation count reading doesn't tell you when your camera is actually going to stop working. Shutter lifetime is an estimation. You might get 400,000 shots out of a 1D X. You might only get 100,000, or even 50,000. For that matter, you might be one of the lucky ones who gets a million shots out of the shutter before it actually goes. The shutter will die when the shutter decides to die. Knowing how close you might be to a potential shutter failure is meaningless, and could quite likely make you replace the shutter unnecessarily if you ARE one of the lucky ones who gets 50%, 100% or more additional life out of their shutter.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 29, 2012)

Exactly. 

My car came with a warranty based both on time and mileage. My car requires recommended servicing at mileage-based intervals. My camera has no warranty or service requirements based on shutter actuations. Do you also want to know the cumulative time of IS operation and the number of aperture stop-downs?

Other than satisfying idle curiosity (which if you gave as your reason, it would make perfect sense to me), or selling the gear (which is technically meaningless, as described above, but buyers want to know), I can't see how the information is at all useful or necessary.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 29, 2012)

Ps. I think $1.59 is pretty reasonable to satisfy idle curiosity.


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## picturesbyme (Sep 29, 2012)

I disagree with the people who don't care but it's pointless to argue about it... 

However... There are free apps for checking the shutter count. 
No offense but if you spend the same amount of time you could find progs. that give you the info for free.

Canon still uses those horrid lens caps from the stone age. Charges a ridiculous amount for a lens hood.. etc.. What do you expect from them... ?


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## rumorzmonger (Sep 29, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ps. I think $1.59 is pretty reasonable to satisfy idle curiosity.



It's a bit steep to pay for a fictional shutter count, though...


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## shannon76 (Sep 29, 2012)

Ok. For those of you that don't mind not having a simple shutter count reading available from the manufacturer. I have a nice 60D I will you sell for $700. It looks like new so it must only have 1000-5000 shots taken right? I have no "official" way of knowing so I'm not responsible for being honest right? And what does it matter anyway, based on your thinking(shutter count doesn't matter)? When in actuality it may have closer to 50,000 pics taken with it. Is this camera really worth $700 or closer to $500 now that you know the actual shutter count? This is just a simple convenience that should be on the camera for knowing the previous usage of the camera. If you say this isn't something that is necessary one can assume you are more interested in avoiding the truth about a camera's condition for what ever reason. Or maybe you just like kissing Canon's ass?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 29, 2012)

I have a car that has 73,000 miles on it. It's been serviced every 3,500 miles, and driven only for a 10-mile no traffic commute, a few long road trips, and never driven over the speed limit. I'm a little sloppy, so there are a couple stains on the seats and a layer of dust on the dash. 

My brother has a car, same make, model, and year, that has 37,000 miles. He took it in for the 3,500 mile service because it was free since the dealer sent him a coupon, after that it's never been serviced. It's been driven over pot-holed, over salted New England roads, driven up Mt. Washington pulling a trailer at 35 mph in 1st gear, and driven hundreds of off-road miles. He's a neat freak and has it hand detailed weekly, so the car looks immaculate. 

The car with only 37,000 miles must be in better shape, because of the low mileage. Right?


FWIW, I did acknowledge that selling a camera is a time when the shutter count is useful (although technically meaningless). Also, FWIW, when I sold my 5DII, I got the shutter count using one of the many free utilities available, and listed the count in the ad.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 30, 2012)

Most of the free apps to check shutter count just plain works of fiction and do not work. 
EOS Info is free and does work, but only on certain camera bodies. eos count, the one costing $1.49 has been around for a while now, and is deemed safe. You use paypal to pay, so none of your credit card information is exposed. 
I also discovered that Reikan FoCal is returning a correct shutter count for my 5D Mark III, so if you are doing AFMA, its a extra bonus to be able to get the shutter count. I don't know exactly which bodies are supported.


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## shannon76 (Sep 30, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> I have a car that has 73,000 miles on it. It's been serviced every 3,500 miles, and driven only for a 10-mile no traffic commute, a few long road trips, and never driven over the speed limit. I'm a little sloppy, so there are a couple stains on the seats and a layer of dust on the dash.
> 
> My brother has a car, same make, model, and year, that has 37,000 miles. He took it in for the 3,500 mile service because it was free since the dealer sent him a coupon, after that it's never been serviced. It's been driven over pot-holed, over salted New England roads, driven up Mt. Washington pulling a trailer at 35 mph in 1st gear, and driven hundreds of off-road miles. He's a neat freak and has it hand detailed weekly, so the car looks immaculate.
> 
> ...



So if your brother took care of his camera like he did his car then the camera would most likely look like it had 200,000+ shutter actuations. But what if you brother took care of this car/camera instead, which at this point may have 200,000 miles/actuations? But oh, the cars odometer isn't working. So based on looks he will sell it to you for what he thinks it's worth which may be a lot more. Aren't you more likely to buy one with a working odometer than this nice looking one with broken odometer? 

Regardless of this analogy, the camera is keeping track of shutter clicks somewhere in the software. What is the point of not making it readily available on some cameras? I paid almost $1000 for my camera. I expect all the windows to go down!!  So who knows of free software like EOSINfo that works with the 60D? Just curious. I already paid the $1.59 this time to eoscount.com but it seems ridiculous to pay for something that Canon should just address in firmware. Quit being cheap Canon.


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## shannon76 (Sep 30, 2012)

Here was Canon's response so far..
_Thank you for contacting Canon product support regarding Canon camera.

I do not recommend 3rd party website's such as the one you described but for a different reason, they are generally not accurate. I do not know what is possible to do through the EOS Utility program. I will certainly forward your suggestions to our software team for their consideration.

Sincerely,

Jeffrey
Technical Support Representative_


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 30, 2012)

shannon76 said:


> Here was Canon's response so far..
> _Thank you for contacting Canon product support regarding Canon camera.
> 
> I do not recommend 3rd party website's such as the one you described but for a different reason, they are generally not accurate. I do not know what is possible to do through the EOS Utility program. I will certainly forward your suggestions to our software team for their consideration.
> ...


That is true - generally, but a few actually use Canon's SDK to get the information. They have discovered by trial and error how to get the information, and its accurate. Canon does not advertise a shutter count in their SDK, but there are lots of undocumented features. Eos info and eos count along with foCal all get information by using the Canon SDK. Most of the others merely look at the image number, which is almost never correct.


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## pdirestajr (Sep 30, 2012)

I want to know how many times I turned the power switch on on my camera, how many times I have pushed the auto focus button down half-way, how many times the spring sprung to pop out my CF card, how many times my battery door flung open, how many times I switched lenses.... What if one of these things goes while I am shooting a critical shot?!

Isn't the "shutter" just one tiny part? WHAT ABOUT THE REST!!!

Ignorance is bliss.


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## FTb-n (Sep 30, 2012)

Shannon76, do me a favor. Try eoscount and get a shutter count of your camera. Take a bunch of pictures and keep track of how many you take. Then try eoscount again. Does the shutter count increase by the number of pictures that you took?

Last winter I bought a refurb 7D from Canon. I used eoscount (it was free then) and was impressed that my refurb body only had a few hundred shutter actuations on it. After taking a couple thousand images, I used eoscount again. It still showed only a few hundred. 

There was a time when I took the rated "shutter life" somewhat seriously, particularly when a friend reported that his 50D died around 60,000. But, then I ran across a story that reported the mean shutter count before actual failure as reported by service records. For recent EOS bodies, most were 500,000 or higher. Sorry, I don't recall where I read this story or the details of how they got their numbers, but it convincing enough for me to not worry about. Although, I do agree that it can be one indicator for the use of a used camera -- but, not, necessarily, of the abuse it took.


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## serendipidy (Sep 30, 2012)

Hypothetical situation:

Two guys buy the same expensive Canon DSLR on the same day. One is a casual user who takes some family photos and also a few vacation shots. His camera mostly just sits in his closet. The other guy is a pro who runs a booming wedding photography business. One year later, they both want to sell to upgrade to the latest model that just came out. The first guy's shutter count is 2000 and the second guys count is 300,000. Neither is aware of the number because they didn't check. 

Are both cameras equal in value? Should a potential buyer be able to know this? If they were both offered at the same price, I think I would buy the first guy's camera, all else being equal.

Ignorance is bliss.
Knowledge is power 

Just my humble opinion.


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## Ew (Sep 30, 2012)

Both Magic Lantern and gPhoto are reliable ways of getting shutter count:

ML also breaks down shutter and LiveView count. 

ML: http://vimeo.com/groups/magiclantern/forum/topic:253992

GPhoto: http://photolifetoys.blogspot.com/2012/08/control-your-camera-with-gphoto2-via.html


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## jVillaPhoto (Sep 30, 2012)

serendipidy said:


> Hypothetical situation:
> 
> Two guys buy the same expensive Canon DSLR on the same day. One is a casual user who takes some family photos and also a few vacation shots. His camera mostly just sits in his closet. The other guy is a pro who runs a booming wedding photography business. One year later, they both want to sell to upgrade to the latest model that just came out. The first guy's shutter count is 2000 and the second guys count is 300,000. Neither is aware of the number because they didn't check.
> 
> ...



I agree, I'd definitely want to know the shutter count on a used camera if I'm considering to buy it. EOS Utility / camera firmware should feature a shutter count as well, in my opinion of course. 

Will the shutter count tell you exactly how long your camera has left? Will it magically make you a better photographer? Of course not, but no need to bash on the OP, he was only asking a simple question. Instead of helping the guy, we try to make him look like a dummy.. ??? Not cool!


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## danski0224 (Sep 30, 2012)

I don't know if knowing the answer would help.

There is no preventative maintenance for a DSLR, unlike a car. You use it until it breaks or buy a new one.

A garage queen car with low miles may seem like a deal, but if you start *using* it, stuff breaks. Fluids need changing, seals harden, brake lines rot from inside out and so forth. 

While many DSLR's have rubber seals and gasketing, there is no maintenance schedule. I suspect that most are not "user serviceable". You find out that a seal is bad when the camera fries out in the mist or rain, and then you are probably SOL unless you do quite a bit of business with Canon.

I think that sensor on time would be more meaningful than a shutter count. I bet there is a difference between 100,000 1/1000 actuations and 10,000 actuations lasting 10 minutes each. 

In my eyes, as long as the camera is in good physical condition, the shutter count doesn't matter.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 30, 2012)

I recently sold my used 5D Mark II with 735 shutter actuations and bought a mark III.
You can be assured that I sood it for a much higher price than one with 30,000 or higher actuations. I received a huge number of responses to my Craigslist ad while the other would be sellers are still waiting.


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## Timothy_Bruce (Sep 30, 2012)

What have you done with that 5DII ? How long have you used it that it has such a low count?


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## SambalOelek (Oct 1, 2012)

Timothy_Bruce said:


> What have you done with that 5DII ? How long have you used it that it has such a low count?



That's nothing, I recently bought a 1Ds II with 840 actuations (original price €6900). Thats about $10 per shutter cycle, so I hope the previous owner had a high keeper rate 

I don't think I'll ever see such a pristine 1Ds again. It even had LCD screen protectors.

I also sold a 5D II used for video. The shutter count of around 280 ensured a quick and easy sell...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 1, 2012)

Timothy_Bruce said:


> What have you done with that 5DII ? How long have you used it that it has such a low count?


I bought it from the Canon refurb store in August after selling my 1D Mark IV, it had about 300 actuations. I planned to keep it for a year or two, but then I had some hand surgery, which prevented me from using it, and Adorama had the $2750 deal on the 5D Mark III. I was able to use it one weekend photographing my friend driving his Monster Truck, and then I decided to sell it since I had the 5D MK III, a 7D, and a old 10D and the 5D MK II wasn't going to get much use.
It was a great camera, and a dark frame of the sensor showed a much cleaner sensor and less banding than my first 5D Mark II.


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## Sameer Thawani (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm a little confused: The "reply by Canon" posted - was that a real reply or was the poster being sarcastic? 

Two other things: 
I don't think even most Nikon systems or the software that comes with it reports shutter count. 

Regardless, shutter count does play some part in resale value of a camera if nothing else. Someone offering a Canon 7D for $1100, shutter count 3000 vs 67,000 makes a difference doesn't it?


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon's response:
> 
> _Thank you for your inquiry. You can send your camera to the nearest Canon Service Center, and we will happily report the shutter count to you, the charge will be approximately 100x what you paid to the website. Alternatively, you may choose to purchase a camera such as the EOS 1D X, which reports the shutter count on the system status menu of the camera._





Sameer Thawani said:


> I'm a little confused: The "reply by Canon" posted - was that a real reply or was the poster being sarcastic?



I'm sure it's genuine. I know the guy who posted it, at least as an acquaintance, and I can tell you without even the most minuscule shadow of a doubt, that he doesn't have a single sarcastic bone in his body. Not even one. Okay, maybe one of his middle ear ossicles is just slightly sarcastic. But that's it. I swear.


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## thepancakeman (Oct 3, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon's response:
> 
> _Thank you for your inquiry. You can send your camera to the nearest Canon Service Center, and we will happily report the shutter count to you, the charge will be approximately 100x what you paid to the website. Alternatively, you may choose to purchase a camera such as the EOS 1D X, which reports the shutter count on the system status menu of the camera._
> 
> Why do you want to know?



If it's such useless information (as espoused in other posts) then why is it reported on the EOS 1DX?  (I'm believing that that element of Neuro's post was a true statement...)


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## Axilrod (Oct 3, 2012)

Sameer Thawani said:


> I'm a little confused: The "reply by Canon" posted - was that a real reply or was the poster being sarcastic?
> 
> Two other things:
> I don't think even most Nikon systems or the software that comes with it reports shutter count.
> ...



Definitely sarcasm, no one in their right mind would point out the fact that their company charges 100x more than this. And OP why not try 40DShutterCount?


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## nf (Oct 3, 2012)

I have used the 40D Shutter Count on Mac with 5d Mkii, works great!


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## Viggo (Oct 4, 2012)

What if batterylife in pictures were as inaccurate as the shuttercount guarantee? They say my shutter lasts 400k which you, Neuro, and MANY others have used as an argument over the shutter durability of the 5d3. I'd be pretty angry if my shutter gave in at 60k and my 5d3 would do over half a million, no?


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## Ellen Schmidtee (Oct 4, 2012)

Viggo said:


> What if batterylife in pictures were as inaccurate as the shuttercount guarantee? They say my shutter lasts 400k which you, Neuro, and MANY others have used as an argument over the shutter durability of the 5d3. I'd be pretty angry if my shutter gave in at 60k and my 5d3 would do over half a million, no?



I would be a little pissed off too, but it's meaningless - a statistical fluke.

I bought a computer with an Intel processor that wouldn't install any version of Windows I've tried (at least 98, 2000, and XP). Intel QC missed one, the seller replaced it with a bit of argument, and the replacement worked for 5 years without as much as a hiccup.

Similar story with a SanDisk disk-on-key. Didn't stop me from buying SanDisk memory cards, which worked flawlessly.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 4, 2012)

shannon76 said:


> What's the general opinion on why Canon hasn't added shutter count to the camera's firmware or EOS Utility?



Magic Lantern does it so I don't worry about it. But since it's an obvious thing to miss imho Canon is hiding the count to ...

a) keep user's ignorant about the wear on their gear (Or more people would shoot less (brackets...), buy more aps-c or 2x 5d2 instead of 1x5d3) and... 

b) to keep used gear prices high - and this is one of the main arguments for people to buy L glass and expensive bodies ("If I don't need it later on I can still sell it with little money lost"). If the number would show in the firmware, every eos body offer would have to be accompanied by the shutter count.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 4, 2012)

Viggo said:


> What if batterylife in pictures were as inaccurate as the shuttercount guarantee?



Where does Canon say it's a guarantee?



Marsu42 said:


> But since it's an obvious thing to miss imho Canon is hiding the count to ...



I think you give them too much credit, or too little. Why does there have to be anything sinister, as implied by 'hiding'? Granted, it could be true. But it's equally likely they just haven't bothered to implement the feature, or that marketing told them not to, so they could trot it out as a 1D X feature. The T1i, T2i, and T3i all have the same shutter lag and VF blackout time, and it seems likely that they use the same shutter mechanism (why would Canon spend money to redesign?). Canon published that the T1i has a shutter durability of 100,000 cycles, but they did not publish any rating for the T2i or T3i - are they hiding that, too?

There are lots of 'obvious things' that could be implemented in any software package. Most electronic systems generate and store lots of data that the user never sees. Your car dealer can connect to the onboard computer and read out the number of times the car has been started, how many times you didn't buckle your seatbelt, etc. Should all of that show up on the dashboard display?

I doubt knowing the shutter count would make many people shoot less. Even the bottom end Rebel/xxxD bodies have a 50K durability rating, and I doubt many owners of those cameras come anywhere close to taking 50K shots over the lifetime of the camera.


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## atosk930 (Oct 4, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > What if batterylife in pictures were as inaccurate as the shuttercount guarantee?
> ...



FWIW, my Rebel xti is approaching upwards of 70k. Shutter durability is pure luck in my opinion.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 4, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > But since it's an obvious thing to miss imho Canon is hiding the count to ...
> ...



Ok, maybe the English word "hiding" has a conspiracy theory connotation, that wasn't my intent, maybe I should have called it "not implemented due to marketing request", nothing sinister about that I hope.

But still not knowing the shutter count is like having a car w/o a mileage meter, this is just the very basic lifetime information and I do not believe they just forgot it - they do make a lot of fuzz in the specs about the differences between their bodies, no matter how long the real shutter lifetime might be.



neuroanatomist said:


> Even the bottom end Rebel/xxxD bodies have a 50K durability rating, and I doubt many owners of those cameras come anywhere close to taking 50K shots over the lifetime of the camera.



... unless you use Magic Lantern's focus stacking and bracketing, that's like 20+ exposures per shot, if it's a hdr scene multiply that by 2+. That's why my 60d now nearly has 100k cycles :-\


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 4, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Even the bottom end Rebel/xxxD bodies have a 50K durability rating, and I doubt many owners of those cameras come anywhere close to taking 50K shots over the lifetime of the camera.
> ...



Right. But, do you think your usage patterns are representative of the general population?


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## emag (Oct 4, 2012)

The only time I've ever given thought to shutter count is for time lapse on my 40D. I'll have the shutter replaced if it fails because it's worth it to ME - this camera's been modified for astrophotography and has already been serviced for shutter release button and USB board replacement. My 60D is not modified - if I wear out the shutter it won't be for many years and may not be worth repairing. With Magic Lantern and FPS override, I'm not likely to wear out the shutter anytime soon. Shutter count is (to me) analagous to odometer reading and physical appearance of a used car bought from an individual. High mileage and a neglected interior tell me something. High mileage, maintenance records and a well cared for interior tell me another. Very low mileage tells me something else. So far, all my cameras have been bought new, if I buy used I will ask for a shutter count. Superfluous info for some, but it's my money and nothing personal.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 4, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Right. But, do you think your usage patterns are representative of the general population?



I really can't say, but I also return with 1000 pictures after a whole day outside in the summer when discovering things like the abandoned soviet barracks around Berlin. And when I recently shot an 1h (friendly) street brawl I had 500+ exposures, too, some 6fps series, but mostly no time to think because everything was moving so fast. But maybe that's just me.


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## Sitting Elf (Oct 8, 2012)

Shutter count is all about resale. Lower the shutter count, the more attractive the purchase...regardless of whether it means anything. It's all about perceived value.

The auto analogies in the earlier post are inaccurate. NADA, BLUE BOOK, and other used car valuation systems give credit or devalue based on mileage at the time of sale. Attesting to this, I sold my wife's Nissan xTerra last week for just barely under book value, which gave a $1200 credit for low mileage. I can't imagine someone paying the same price for a camera with 100,000 shutter activations vs. one with 5000, irrespective of the same outward condition.

For those who are unaware, this is what the shutter count returns for the $1.59 EOSCount system online (Unfortunately, only compatible with Windows PC's for the moment)


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## marekjoz (Oct 8, 2012)

As mentioned above, shutter count doesn't show the whole picture, just some hint. If it's the huge number, like 80% of expected shutter count life, then it should be a warning, but if the number is low, you can't say anything.
Someone wrote above that he sold 5d2 used for video only with low shutter count. And this is such a hypothetical situation - how many hours this the electronics and sensor work in video mode? How many pixels in the sensor become "warmer and warmer"? Was the camera used in high humidity or high temperature environment? Was it used in a rain? etc.

I know what OP required from Canon, but seriously I tend to agree with neuro and others here, that the shutter count doesn't show the whole picture and could be more misleading than helpful. To make these statistics more useful to estimate the used gear's value, it should cotain more info, like someone has mentioned above.


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## drmikeinpdx (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm having a hard time selling my 5D classic for a good price, because I can't tell buyers what the shutter count is. Based on this experience, I would have to say that the lack of a shutter count feature reduces the resale value.

I could send it in to Canon, but the last time I sent it in for focus adjustment they charged me $200. They did include a shutter count report at that price, but I had to specifically request it. I had just purchased the camera used and guess what? I wanted to know the true shutter count! LOL


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