# The sensor in the upcoming Canon EOS R3 is designed and manufactured by Canon



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 18, 2021)

> After the development announcement of the Canon EOS R3, the internet went a bit silly with stories about who is actually manufacturing the image sensor in the Canon EOS R3. Why it mattered? I don’t know, but I stayed away from the claims made by a bunch of sites.
> PetaPixel reports that Canon has directly told them the following about the Canon EOS R3 image sensor.
> The sensor in the upcoming EOS R3 camera is Canon designed and manufactured.
> I’m glad this issue has been put to rest and we can get on with things.



Continue reading...


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## knight427 (Jun 18, 2021)

Canon is *******!

Just had to get that out of the way.

edit: interesting, we can't say the d-word...not THAT d-word, the canon is d-word, d-word


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## slclick (Jun 18, 2021)

I'm happy PetaPixel has finally offered up something worthwhile.


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## AlanF (Jun 18, 2021)

How many MPx is the question?


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## BakaBokeh (Jun 18, 2021)

For real, where did all those rumors come from?


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## Chig (Jun 18, 2021)

Hardly surprising as Canon only use their own sensors in all their current cameras , why would they start using Sony hand me downs ?
Edit : I've been told Canon use Sony sensors in their powershot cameras.


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## john1970 (Jun 18, 2021)

Good to know that Canon developed and manufactured this sensor. I would expect all sensors going forward to be either BSI or BSI/stacked going forward.


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## ethanz (Jun 18, 2021)

Good. We don't want no stinking four letter s word in our cameras!


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 18, 2021)

Yeah, but whose idea was it?


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 18, 2021)

I didn’t think that was in doubt.


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## Hector1970 (Jun 18, 2021)

Hardly a surprise its their own sensor. 
Was there any relevant sensor Patents from Canon to align with this camera.
Any 45/50 MP sensor patents or have they been 20 / 30 MP sensors?


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## Sharlin (Jun 18, 2021)

BakaBokeh said:


> For real, where did all those rumors come from?





Chig said:


> Hardly surprising as Canon only use their own sensors in all their current cameras, why would they start using Sony hand me downs ?



Well, you know how the Internet works? Presumably the rumors stemmed from the idea that _obviously_ Canon can't have made such an advanced sensor themselves, so it's actually a Sony camera in disguise and Canon is only not d****d thanks to Sony. Or something.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 18, 2021)

Hector1970 said:


> Hardly a surprise its their own sensor.
> Was there any relevant sensor Patents from Canon to align with this camera.
> Any 45/50 MP sensor patents or have they been 20 / 30 MP sensors?


I do not recall ever seeing the MP count in a Canon sensor patent.


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## Kit. (Jun 18, 2021)

Chig said:


> Hardly surprising as Canon only use their own sensors in all their current cameras ,


Including Powershots?


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## Diltiazem (Jun 18, 2021)

This 30 MP Sony sensor is probably for A9 III. If R3 is also 30 MP, it will be interesting to see the price difference between the two. Hopefully, we will know a lot more about R3 in a couple of weeks.


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## canonmike (Jun 19, 2021)

Diltiazem said:


> This 30 MP Sony sensor is probably for A9 III. If R3 is also 30 MP, it will be interesting to see the price difference between the two. Hopefully, we will know a lot more about R3 in a couple of weeks.


Problem is, in a couple of weeks was two weeks ago....Bring it on Canon.


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## Mr Majestyk (Jun 19, 2021)

BakaBokeh said:


> For real, where did all those rumors come from?


Since it was stacked sensor, people immediately assumed it had to be Sony, but Canon had stacked sensor patents several years ago. I had hoped to see it earlier in production, but good to see them compete in this space with Sony.


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## definedphotography (Jun 19, 2021)

AlanF said:


> How many MPx is the question?











Canon EOS R3 to have a 30mp sensor? [CR1] #EOSR3


The biggest question surrounding the upcoming Canon EOS R3 is what the megapixel count will be for stills shooters. Over the weekend two anonymous sources to



www.canonrumors.com


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## Mr Majestyk (Jun 19, 2021)

Chig said:


> Hardly surprising as Canon only use their own sensors in all their current cameras , why would they start using Sony hand me downs ?


None of their cameras with 1" sensors are their own, they are Sony's.


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## Chig (Jun 19, 2021)

Kit. said:


> Including Powershots?


apparently not


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## slclick (Jun 19, 2021)

Just stack all those 18's you got laying about


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## John Wilde (Jun 19, 2021)

Sony has never made an APS-C or FF camera with a Dual Pixel Autofocus sensor, so it has always been obvious that the R3 sensor would not be made by Sony.


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## John Wilde (Jun 19, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> None of their cameras with 1" sensors are their own, they are Sony's.


None of Canon's 1" sensor cameras have Dual Pixel Autofocus.

Like other current Canon ASP-C and FF cameras, the R3 will have Dual Pixel Autofocus, according to Canon's press release. No Sony APS-C or FF camera has Dual Pixel Autofocus, so this sensor won't come from Sony.


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## snapshot (Jun 19, 2021)

john1970 said:


> Good to know that Canon developed and manufactured this sensor. I would expect all sensors going forward to be either BSI or BSI/stacked going forward.


I understand both BSI and BSI/stacked are both more expensive sensor technologies so there could be a place for conventional sensors such as the R5 sensor in the market.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 19, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> None of their cameras with 1" sensors are their own, they are Sony's.


It was never all of them but now that all of Canon's new camcorders have Canon sensors I am not sure why they can't do the same with point and shoots.
I could see Canon not caring very much about point and shoots but the Canon sensors have much better autofocus which is something people expect from Canon cameras.


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## Tidy Media (Jun 19, 2021)

AlanF said:


> How many MPx is the question?


At least 3


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## goldenhusky (Jun 19, 2021)

Who the F cares which company made the sensor. WTF is the resolution of the sensor? Every a**hole is telling us every stupid thing other than the most important information i.e. the resolution


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## privatebydesign (Jun 19, 2021)

goldenhusky said:


> Who the F cares which company made the sensor. WTF is the resolution of the sensor? Every a**hole is telling us every stupid thing other than the most important information i.e. the resolution


If the resolution is the most important thing for you then it probably isn't the camera for you!

If the fact that it has 1 series AF controls and more, it takes 1 series batteries, it has faster fps than the 1DX III, it takes durability to new levels for the R system, it has all the connection capabilities the 1DX III has when the 1DX III has a $700 dongle on its side, etc etc, then it is probably the camera for you.


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## EduPortas (Jun 19, 2021)

BakaBokeh said:


> For real, where did all those rumors come from?



An anonymus comment on a forum of a video-centric site that has EOS in its name but actually thinks very little of Canon cameras.


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## Maximilian (Jun 19, 2021)

knight427 said:


> Canon is *******!
> 
> Just had to get that out of the way.
> 
> edit: interesting, we can't say the d-word...not THAT d-word, the canon is d-word, d-word


Yepp! It is censored. We had a controversial discussion about that in January.


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## Maximilian (Jun 19, 2021)

Tidy Media said:


> At least 3


You mean "At least 3 P?" or "At least 3 MP?"


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## Tidy Media (Jun 19, 2021)

Maximilian said:


> You mean "At least 3 P?" or "At least 3 MP?"


yes


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## dirtyvu (Jun 19, 2021)

The reasoning is just ridiculous. Let's pretend that it is true that Canon designed the sensor and Sony manufactured it. Thst would still be a Canon sensor, not a Sony sensor. AMD doesn't manufacture its processors, they hire TSMC to manufacture them. They certainly are not TSMC processors. Intel also manufactures a lot of chips at TSMC and will soon shift some core processors to TSMC. That still makes them Intel processors.


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## Bahrd (Jun 19, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> [...] the internet went a bit silly with stories about who is actually manufacturing the image sensor [...]





Sharlin said:


> Well, you know how the Internet works?


What a relieve it's not us but the Internet to blame!


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## Bahrd (Jun 19, 2021)

dirtyvu said:


> The reasoning is just ridiculous.


I believe it's a kind of a basic (herd-like) instinct. The same phenomenon can be observed in car industry (Toyota dared to design cars with BMW and Subaru, in basketball/soccer (to name a few) when players change teams leaving the fans in limbo, etc.).


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## dirtyvu (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahrd said:


> I believe it's a kind of a basic (herd-like) instinct. The same phenomenon can be observed in car industry (Toyota dared to design cars with BMW and Subaru, in basketball/soccer (to name a few) when players change teams leaving the fans in limbo, etc.).


Toyota with BMW or Subaru is not the right analogy. In the BMW situation, Toyota outsourced parts to build their Supra. They had no design involvement from BMW. The Supra wasn't co-developed with BMW. The Z4 didn't have Toyota involvement. It's just Toyota being realistic and wanting to bring a sports car to market in an environment where sports cars don't make economic sense. So instead of spending hundreds of millions making an inline-6 engine, just pick from the many inline-6 engines that BMW makes. The Supra literally has BMW parts inside of it. In terms of the Toyota 86 versus Subaru BR-Z, there was true cooperation and co-designing with intermingling of parts from both companies.

To make the fake story work would be something like Canon going to Sony and saying, "hey I need a sensor. what sensors do you have for me to buy so I can sell a camera?" This is entirely not what is happening with the R3. Canon is not putting a Sony sensor in any of their cameras. And even if Canon decided to have Sony manufacture a Canon-designed sensor (which they're not), that does not make it a Sony sensor. It would just be using Sony as a manufacturer.

Apple would be more like what people are thinking. When Apple makes a laptop, the screen may come from Samsung or LG. The RAM may come from Samsung or Micron. The SSD may come from Samsung. etc. etc. So the new CPU/GPU is entirely an Apple CPU/GPU even though Apple doesn't manufacture it. Apple does use Sony camera sensors. Apple goes to Sony and says, "hey, we need these specs in a camera sensor, what do you have to offer?" Does anyone actually believe that Canon is doing that?


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## Del Paso (Jun 19, 2021)

I believe brand-identity is , for customers, at least psychologically , important in the "high-end" segment.
While it's easy to sell a Toyota with a BMW engine, it just won't work the other way. And who would ever buy a Rolex with a Swatch Group work, even if excellent ?
The question is how a Canon customer, ready to shell out a few thousand $, would appreciate his camera to be fitted with a sensor made by a company he dislikes. Whether this would impact sales in the long term, I doubt... Yet, it could be perceived a a proof of "4 letters' " superiority over one's favorite brand.
That's why, in my opinion, it's good news the R3 has a Canon sensor as this fact will also mute the Youtube "4 letter" lovers......


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## Ericsmith (Jun 19, 2021)

Not surprising that rumor made it's rounds. Seems like it was mainly propagated by the admin/owner of the sonyalpharumors site. He's *not* exactly known for his reputation of providing factual, truthful information. Seems to have a hate on for Canon honestly. 

When I was a Sony shooter (well, still have some of the equipment), that site and his attitude (regularly using profanity in posts, posting anything and everything, regardless of factfulness, attacking the competition in a biased, immature way) always left a bitter taste in my mouth. Quite honestly he's one of the things that turned me off of Sony. So much hate perpetuated from that site.


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## sulla (Jun 19, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> If the fact that it has 1 series AF controls and more, it takes 1 series batteries, it has faster fps than the 1DX III, it takes durability to new levels for the R system, it has all the connection capabilities the 1DX III has when the 1DX III has a $700 dongle on its side, etc etc, then it is probably the camera for you.


Oh how I hope this thing is expensive beyond my reach...


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## Joules (Jun 19, 2021)

Funny how some folks would rather believe Canon lied to them (the official development announcement clearly stated that the sensor was designed and manufactured by Canon) than accept that Sony might have some real competition to deal with. 

But Canon has already made great progress with the 90D/1DX III sensors and even more the R5. And they've had tons of patents on newer technologies. It should really not be that surprising to see the leading manufacturer accomplish something with all their R&D money.


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## Kit. (Jun 19, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> If the resolution is the most important thing for you then it probably isn't the camera for you!
> 
> If the fact that it has 1 series AF controls and more, it takes 1 series batteries, it has faster fps than the 1DX III, it takes durability to new levels for the R system, it has all the connection capabilities the 1DX III has when the 1DX III has a $700 dongle on its side, etc etc, then it is probably the camera for you.


Is there any _new_ information about the latter?


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## dirtyvu (Jun 19, 2021)

Del Paso said:


> I believe brand-identity is , for customers, at least psychologically , important in the "high-end" segment.
> While it's easy to sell a Toyota with a BMW engine, it just won't work the other way. And who would ever buy a Rolex with a Swatch Group work, even if excellent ?
> The question is how a Canon customer, ready to shell out a few thousand $, would appreciate his camera to be fitted with a sensor made by a company he dislikes. Whether this would impact sales in the long term, I doubt... Yet, it could be perceived a a proof of "4 letters' " superiority over one's favorite brand.
> That's why, in my opinion, it's good news the R3 has a Canon sensor as this fact will also mute the Youtube "4 letter" lovers......



Who cares who manufactures the sensor? It was invented and designed by Canon. Who cares if Canon goes to TSMC to make it? or goes to Intel to make it? or goes to Samsung to make it? or, gasp, goes to Sony to make it. It's still a Canon invention. Apple doesn't care who manufactures their M1 processor as long as they can get the quantities and pricing they want. Microsoft has multiple companies making the Xbox machines. No one ever says, "that's a Wistron machine." "That's a Foxconn machine." "that's a pegatron machine." as long as the manufacturer can pump out the devices at a reasonable price, that's all they care about. Sony's imaging division doesn't really make money because of the manufacturing. They make money because of the sensors they invent.

Anyway, it's all a moot point. Canon says they both designed and manufactured the sensor. but even if they designed it but had a third party build it, it's still a Canon part.


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## Del Paso (Jun 19, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> I take your general point, but in fact, most or all Swiss brands used generic movements from Swatch for many of their models. I think in 2010 there was talk of moving away from this system but I haven't followed how things changed so it may be different now. And in fact, while BMW is about the engine and couldn't use a non-BMW engine***, the Swatch calibres ARE sort of BMW quality, or at least the nice ones are. None of the makers could do a significantly better job, so it's no shame having a Swatch movement.


Yet, despite high quality achieved by Swatch Group calibers, it certainly is no coincidence that, especially within this company, many brands stress out having specific manufacture movements. It's just about prestige, identity, not necessarily about quality.


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## AlanF (Jun 19, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> I take your general point, but in fact, most or all Swiss brands used generic movements from Swatch for many of their models. I think in 2010 there was talk of moving away from this system but I haven't followed how things changed so it may be different now. And in fact, while BMW is about the engine and couldn't use a non-BMW engine***, the Swatch calibres ARE sort of BMW quality, or at least the nice ones are. None of the makers could do a significantly better job, so it's no shame having a Swatch movement.


Somebody with the name Swiss should take more pride in their watches! The prestige brands of Patek, Jaeger-LeCoultre, Cartier, Rolex and some of IWC produce their own movements. Most lower range mechanical Swiss watches have used ETA or Swiss ebauches for many years, and they do function very well. But, to be frank (not SwissFrank), if all you want is a timepiece that works, get a quartz one.


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## AlanF (Jun 19, 2021)

Completely off topic now we are on to Swiss watches, there is a lovely story about Rolex. The company was actually founded by a German, Wilsdorf, in England. For tax reasons, he moved the company to Switzerland. During WWII, British soldiers who were captured by the Germans and sent to prisoner of war camps had their watches confiscated. So, some of them wrote to Wilsdorf asking if he could send them watches and they would pay for them after the war as they had no money. He did so saying he trusted the word of a British officer. All of them paid after the war. Not only was it a great morale booster for the prisoners that a German living in Switzerland had confidence in them and their future, but they used those watches to time the movements of the guards when planning their escapes.


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## Bahrd (Jun 19, 2021)

dirtyvu said:


> Toyota with BMW or Subaru is not the right analogy.


I believe you are right. Still... why should we care at all?


AlanF said:


> Completely off topic now we are on to Swiss watches, there is a lovely story about Rolex. The company was actually founded by a German, Wilsdorf, in England. For tax reasons, he moved the company to Switzerland. During WWII, British soldiers who were captured by the Germans and sent to prisoner of war camps had their watches confiscated. So, some of them wrote to Wilsdorf asking if he could send them watches and they would pay for them after the war as they had no money. He did so saying he trusted the word of a British officer. All of them paid after the war. Not only was it a great morale booster for the prisoners that a German living in Switzerland had confidence in them and their future, but they used those watches to time the movements of the guards when planning their escapes.


Interesting story! ThnX for sharing!


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahrd said:


> I believe it's a kind of a basic (herd-like) instinct. The same phenomenon can be observed in car industry (Toyota dared to design cars with BMW and Subaru, in basketball/soccer (to name a few) when players change teams leaving the fans in limbo, etc.).


I just got annoyed because the Subaru BRZ was not available with AWD and AWD is a defining characteristic of Subaru cars.
It is not like Toyota is incapable of making cars with AWD.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 19, 2021)

Joules said:


> Funny how some folks would rather believe Canon lied to them (the official development announcement clearly stated that the sensor was designed and manufactured by Canon) than accept that Sony might have some real competition to deal with.


I hope Canon becomes real competition with Sony in the sensor department, but it far too early to call it that.
Canon has just started marketing sensors for third parties and their lineup is not very big.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 19, 2021)

dirtyvu said:


> Who cares who manufactures the sensor?


A lot of people apparently do.
Why they should care is another question.


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## Sporgon (Jun 19, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> None of their cameras with 1" sensors are their own, they are Sony's.


What’s interesting here is that according to the various sensor testing sites, and the likes of camera reviewers dpr, Canon’s implementation of those Sony 1” sensors produced better sensor characteristics to the other makes that used the same sensor. Indeed it was the same story with the smaller 2/3 Sony sourced sensors to.


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## Del Paso (Jun 19, 2021)

AlanF said:


> Somebody with the name Swiss should take more pride in their watches! The prestige brands of Patek, Jaeger-LeCoultre, Cartier, Rolex and some of IWC produce their own movements. Most lower range mechanical Swiss watches have used ETA or Swiss ebauches for many years, and they do function very well. But, to be frank (not SwissFrank), if all you want is a timepiece that works, get a quartz one.





dirtyvu said:


> Who cares who manufactures the sensor? It was invented and designed by Canon. Who cares if Canon goes to TSMC to make it? or goes to Intel to make it? or goes to Samsung to make it? or, gasp, goes to Sony to make it. It's still a Canon invention. Apple doesn't care who manufactures their M1 processor as long as they can get the quantities and pricing they want. Microsoft has multiple companies making the Xbox machines. No one ever says, "that's a Wistron machine." "That's a Foxconn machine." "that's a pegatron machine." as long as the manufacturer can pump out the devices at a reasonable price, that's all they care about. Sony's imaging division doesn't really make money because of the manufacturing. They make money because of the sensors they invent.
> 
> Anyway, it's all a moot point. Canon says they both designed and manufactured the sensor. but even if they designed it but had a third party build it, it's still a Canon part.


Who cares? I do !
On the basis of pure rationality, you're absolutely right!
But many decisions, at least mine, are based on my liking or disliking, and, since I do not like Sony as a company (negative experience), I prefer by far a Canon being fitted with a Canon sensor.
And a Subaru fitted with a flat four or a flat six.
And yes, it's about subjectivity !
Edit: to quote Andrew Reid 's proud quote : "This means that essentially the images coming out of the Canon EOS R3 are Sony images in my view"
And this is why it also matters that the sensor is not a soni !


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## privatebydesign (Jun 19, 2021)

Kit. said:


> Is there any _new_ information about the latter?


Not that I know of, but it has an Ethernet port and no WFT port so it has to have full WiFi. I wonder if Canon being Canon they are going to not put GPS in it and that will be one of the hotshoe mount accessories.


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## koenkooi (Jun 19, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Not that I know of, but it has an Ethernet port and no WFT port so it has to have full WiFi. I wonder if Canon being Canon they are going to not put GPS in it and that will be one of the hotshoe mount accessories.


If it doesn’t have builtin GPS, I hope the GP-E2 is still supported.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 19, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> If it doesn’t have builtin GPS, I hope the GP-E2 is still supported.


i just thought it is a way of differentiating the R1 and the R3. The 1DX II has GPS the R5 doesn’t, yet the R5 has 5Ghz WiFi. So if they are going to cheap out I can see the R3 not having GPS and the R1 having it.


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## Kit. (Jun 19, 2021)

Maybe that's also why there is no WFT port. The camera may support both 2.4GHz and 5GHz networks, but with shorter range.


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## jam05 (Jun 19, 2021)

Diltiazem said:


> This 30 MP Sony sensor is probably for A9 III. If R3 is also 30 MP, it will be interesting to see the price difference between the two. Hopefully, we will know a lot more about R3 in a couple of weeks.


Of course it's NOT a Sony sensor.


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## jam05 (Jun 19, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> None of their cameras with 1" sensors are their own, they are Sony's.


None are manufactured by Sony. You've been reading BS. Done many a tear down, and they are NOT manufactured by Sony.


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## jam05 (Jun 19, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> None of their cameras with 1" sensors are their own, they are Sony's.


They are NOT.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 19, 2021)

jam05 said:


> None are manufactured by Sony. You've been reading BS. Done many a tear down, and they are NOT manufactured by Sony.





jam05 said:


> They are NOT.


“The G7 X Mark III's 20MP 1"-type sensor uses a Stacked CMOS design which, up until now, has only been found on Sony cameras.”









Canon PowerShot G7 X III review: the compact camera that lets you broadcast to the world


The PowerShot G7 X Mark III doesn't stray from the formula that made its predecessors well-liked, at least on the outside. Its feature set, however, has been greatly improved, with live YouTube streaming being the highlight.




www.dpreview.com


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## privatebydesign (Jun 19, 2021)

Kit. said:


> Maybe that's also why there is no WFT port. The camera may support both 2.4GHz and 5GHz networks, but with shorter range.


The R5 has 2.4 and 5GHz but no GPS, and no network transfer connectivity. I’d expect the R3 to have 2.4 and 5 GHz WiFi, full transfer connectivity functions (like you get by adding the WFT grip to the R5 or WFT dongle to the 1DX III) but no GPS. I’d then expect the R1 to have everything internal.

But maybe the new hotshoe port is the new WFT and GPS/GP-E2 style accessory port. Although I doubt it would be the WFT port because I believe they have had their time and are now obsolete in the top end cameras, and I don’t see that being popular with news photographers that use the WFT and a hotshoe mounted flash, I see lots of them in newscasts in DC etc.

personally I use a 1DX II with WFT and with CamRangers, and I really like having GPS as a search term so including it all would be a lovely bonus I doubt I’ll get!


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## AlanF (Jun 19, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> “The G7 X Mark III's 20MP 1"-type sensor uses a Stacked CMOS design which, up until now, has only been found on Sony cameras.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The information is kept pretty secret. Gordon Laing wrote in his review:
"The sensor is probably the same as Sony’s older RX100 IV which means the G7X III may gain 4k and extra speed but sadly not the phase-detect AF introduced on the later RX100 Mark V which means the autofocus is less confident than the latest Sonys"





__





Canon PowerShot G7X III review | Cameralabs







www.cameralabs.com


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## Diltiazem (Jun 19, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Of course it's NOT a Sony sensor.


I was not talking about the R3 sensor. I was talking about the Sony sensor mentioned in this report. 
https://petapixel.com/2021/06/18/canon-rebuffs-rumors-that-its-r3-sensor-is-made-by-sony/


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## dolina (Jun 19, 2021)

Does it matter who designed and manufactured the image sensor? I'd prefer the best hardware out there regardless of origin of design & manufacturer


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## tmroper (Jun 20, 2021)

"AMD doesn't manufacture its processors, they hire TSMC to manufacture them."

Apple also uses TSCM to manufacture their glorious new M1 processor. But, everyone's happy to call it an Apple chip; it's industry standard by now.


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## RayValdez360 (Jun 20, 2021)

dirtyvu said:


> Who cares who manufactures the sensor? It was invented and designed by Canon. Who cares if Canon goes to TSMC to make it? or goes to Intel to make it? or goes to Samsung to make it? or, gasp, goes to Sony to make it. It's still a Canon invention. Apple doesn't care who manufactures their M1 processor as long as they can get the quantities and pricing they want. Microsoft has multiple companies making the Xbox machines. No one ever says, "that's a Wistron machine." "That's a Foxconn machine." "that's a pegatron machine." as long as the manufacturer can pump out the devices at a reasonable price, that's all they care about. Sony's imaging division doesn't really make money because of the manufacturing. They make money because of the sensors they invent.
> 
> Anyway, it's all a moot point. Canon says they both designed and manufactured the sensor. but even if they designed it but had a third party build it, it's still a Canon part.


people think canon sensors kinda suck becuase of how stagnant they were since the 5d4.


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## schiueva (Jun 20, 2021)

If this sensor is not for R3 then this might be the sensor for the A9iii. Hope the Canon sensor is equivalent to this sensor or better


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## dirtyvu (Jun 20, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> people think canon sensors kinda suck becuase of how stagnant they were since the 5d4.


the sensor in the R5 is bomb.


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## Sporgon (Jun 20, 2021)

dirtyvu said:


> the sensor in the R5 is bomb.


Does that explain the overheating?


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## sulla (Jun 20, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> The R5 has 2.4 and 5GHz but no GPS, and no network transfer connectivity. I’d expect the R3 to have 2.4 and 5 GHz WiFi, full transfer connectivity functions (like you get by adding the WFT grip to the R5 or WFT dongle to the 1DX III) but no GPS. I’d then expect the R1 to have everything internal.
> 
> But maybe the new hotshoe port is the new WFT and GPS/GP-E2 style accessory port. Although I doubt it would be the WFT port because I believe they have had their time and are now obsolete in the top end cameras, and I don’t see that being popular with news photographers that use the WFT and a hotshoe mounted flash, I see lots of them in newscasts in DC etc.
> 
> personally I use a 1DX II with WFT and with CamRangers, and I really like having GPS as a search term so including it all would be a lovely bonus I doubt I’ll get!


I doubt that an upgraded hotshoe (with spring loaded contacts) could match the data rates that 5 GHz WiFi can provide, ie transfer speeds of >1 Mb/s, considering the care that must be taken when making wired ethernet connections at that speed (ie double-shielding of cables and connectors...)

On my 5D3 I can have either GPS or a flash mounted, but not both. And the GPS-receiver is a piece of additional hardware that makes the camera larger. In sum, it would be very nice to have GPS in the camera all the time.

I can see your point that press photographers would appreciate to have WFT plus GPS at the same time. (I wasn't aware the R5 had WiFi but not WFT-capabilities, but I'm surprised). And in a studio environment it would be nice to have WFT plus flash transmitter at the same time. So it would be very convenient to have WFT capabilities implemented in the body itself. After all, I'm sure its just software (that could even be implemented in the R5).


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## sulla (Jun 20, 2021)

Sporgon said:


> Does that explain the overheating?


No, the overheating isn't caused by the sensor. It is the processor that generates the "heat" and the insufficient heatsink that causes the "over".


----------



## Andrew_Melb (Jun 20, 2021)

Given we are close to Tokyo olymics and have the R3 coming, I expect these are more big white lenses. 400mm and 800mm would be my guess.


----------



## Tremotino (Jun 20, 2021)

sulla said:


> No, the overheating isn't caused by the sensor. It is the processor that generates the "heat" and the insufficient heatsink that causes the "over".


Your are right.
But don't forget the CFexpress card and card slot chip. These two produce the head the camera can't handle for long time. I think the technology is there not ready for such high bitrates.
If you use an external recorder, there are no overheating problems.


----------



## sulla (Jun 20, 2021)

Tremotino said:


> Your are right.
> But don't forget the CFexpress card and card slot chip. These two produce the head the camera can't handle for long time. I think the technology is there not ready for such high bitrates.
> If you use an external recorder, there are no overheating problems.


The R5 camera outputs video data in HDMI format to the external recorder. I thinkt that reduces the load on the main processor greatly, because it doesn't have to compress that into h.265 format, that is done externally in the recorder. So the problem is the heat off the processor, not off the CFexpress chip or card.


----------



## OTMT (Jun 20, 2021)

*******


----------



## pzyber (Jun 20, 2021)

dolina said:


> Does it matter who designed and manufactured the image sensor? I'd prefer the best hardware out there regardless of origin of design & manufacturer


To me it matters. I've disliked Sony as a company since way before they were in the ILC business. Their attitude towards standards etc. I would never buy anything that has a main component manufactured by them.

It would also not look promising for the future if the Company whos system I'm investing into is dependent on their main competitor. Then they will then always be at a disadvantage. That goes for all companies.


----------



## Sporgon (Jun 20, 2021)

sulla said:


> No, the overheating isn't caused by the sensor. It is the processor that generates the "heat" and the insufficient heatsink that causes the "over".


 
It was a joke


----------



## Cyborx (Jun 20, 2021)

ethanz said:


> Good. We don't want no stinking four letter s word in our cameras!


You mean that company that is already making kick a** hires mirrorless pro bodies for over 3 years?


----------



## Cyborx (Jun 20, 2021)

And PS, it’s gonna cost 6999 euro. As we know from Canon. You’d expect it to be 4999 so Canon will add up a bit to make the price unreal and unfair, as we know Canon policy for years.


----------



## Cyborx (Jun 20, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> And PS, it’s gonna cost 6999 euro. As we know from Canon. You’d expect it to be 4999 so Canon will add up a bit to make the price unreal and unfair, as we know Canon policy for years.


R1 will be 11.000 euro’s ... after pricedrop (6m) it will be 9999 euro’s 
This is how it’s gonna be, if you like it or not.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 20, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> The R5 has 2.4 and 5GHz but no GPS, and no network transfer connectivity.


There is an optional WIFI battery grip.
I would have gotten it if it supported wireless video streaming.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 20, 2021)

Tremotino said:


> Your are right.
> But don't forget the CFexpress card and card slot chip. These two produce the head the camera can't handle for long time. I think the technology is there not ready for such high bitrates.
> If you use an external recorder, there are no overheating problems.


I was really hoping that a firmware update would fix the camera overheating when the CF Express and SD cards are inserted and not even being used.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 20, 2021)

sulla said:


> The R5 camera outputs video data in HDMI format to the external recorder. I thinkt that reduces the load on the main processor greatly, because it doesn't have to compress that into h.265 format, that is done externally in the recorder. So the problem is the heat off the processor, not off the CFexpress chip or card.


It will overheat even recording externally if I do not remove the cards but it takes longer to overheat than recording directly to the cards. 
If your theory were correct then it would not overheat recording 8K RAW.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 20, 2021)

Kit. said:


> Including Powershots?


An argument can be made that none of the Powershots are current.


----------



## scyrene (Jun 20, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> And PS, it’s gonna cost 6999 euro. As we know from Canon. You’d expect it to be 4999 so Canon will add up a bit to make the price unreal and unfair, as we know Canon policy for years.



High sure, but "unfair", really??


----------



## Del Paso (Jun 20, 2021)

pzyber said:


> To me it matters. I've disliked Sony as a company since way before they were in the ILC business. Their attitude towards standards etc. I would never buy anything that has a main component manufactured by them.
> 
> It would also not look promising for the future if the Company whos system I'm investing into is dependent on their main competitor. Then they will then always be at a disadvantage. That goes for all companies.


I couldn't agree more !


----------



## john1970 (Jun 20, 2021)

I am glad to see that Canon both designs and manufacturers their own chips. Have two camera companies that maintain their own chips foundries (Sony and Canon) is good for the industry and supply chains.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 20, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> Why do people care who makes the sensor?
> 
> A small-scale snippet from my own life: I worked for Omron's workstation (desk-size Unix computer) department using the Motorola 88000 RISC microprocessor in the early 90s. The key thing about the 88000 was that it wasn't controlled by a competitor. Motorola didn't make workstations. In contrast, IBM controlled the PowerPC, Sun controlled the Sparc, DEC controlled the Alpha, SGI controlled the MIPS, etc. These were all competitors with us.
> 
> ...


And yet Nikon get better performance out of their Sony FF sensors than Sony do....


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Jun 20, 2021)

Is it really good news that it is developed by Canon? In the past Canon was much worse than Sony when it comes to noise in dark areas. I hope that there will be a big improvement when it comes to noise. There has not been a lot of improvement in the last eight years.


----------



## Adelino (Jun 20, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> An argument can be made that none of the Powershots are current.





EOS 4 Life said:


> I know it's a detour, but I would really like to see some updated Powershots.


----------



## Diltiazem (Jun 20, 2021)

Not sure what to make of this. A Thai site is showing 134,900 Baht (about 4300 USD) for R3. 

https://ipricethailand.com/ราคา/canon-eos-r3/#


----------



## Czardoom (Jun 20, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Is it really good news that it is developed by Canon? In the past Canon was much worse than Sony when it comes to noise in dark areas. I hope that there will be a big improvement when it comes to noise. There has not been a lot of improvement in the last eight years.


Yes, in the past, Sony had a definite advantage over Canon when it came to noise. But for today's sensors, you couldn't be more incorrect. Prior to releasing the Canon 5D mark IV, Sony sensors had lower noise than Canon sensors due to their on chip ADC architecture which Canon was slow to move to. Since the change to on-chip ADC, Canon's sensors are essentially equal to Sony's when it comes to noise. So there has been a lot of improvement for Canon in the last 8 years.


----------



## Czardoom (Jun 20, 2021)

Seriously, do any real photographers care who makes the sensor? I understand why gear-heads, do, but I have never wondered who makes the sensor in any camera that I own. The only question is - does it do a good job? 

Now, for other parts of the camera, it might make more of a difference. Sony has recently been sued for shutter failures well before their supposed life expectancy, so I wouldn't want a Sony shutter. Nor would I want Sony's dust removal system, which by almost all accounts, doesn't work well. And it appears that some companies (Canon and Olympus) make superior IBIS. But sensors? Sony has been a leader in sensor technology for many years. these days, Canon has essesntially caught up, so I can't see why it matters to anyone. My main camera is an Olympus E-M1 II. I have never wondered who makes that sensor. It just doesn't matter to me.


----------



## Czardoom (Jun 20, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> And PS, it’s gonna cost 6999 euro. As we know from Canon. You’d expect it to be 4999 so Canon will add up a bit to make the price unreal and unfair, as we know Canon policy for years.


Canon prices are always competitive, in my opinion, when you understand what quality is.


----------



## sulla (Jun 20, 2021)

Diltiazem said:


> Not sure what to make of this. A Thai site is showing 134,900 Baht (about 4300 USD) for R3.
> 
> https://ipricethailand.com/ราคา/canon-eos-r3/#


that would be a competitive price. Like!


----------



## H. Jones (Jun 20, 2021)

sulla said:


> that would be a competitive price. Like!



Agreed! $4300 seems too low to me but if they undercut the price of both the A1 and A9 I would be very impressed. 

This would definitely be the price point where I would 100% pick up the R3 over a second R5. Would be roughly the same price as an R5 + the R5's battery grip, which would be a sweet deal.


----------



## Cyborx (Jun 20, 2021)

Make it 3999 euro’s and make everyone come back to Canon that has made the switch to Sony..


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 20, 2021)

sulla said:


> I doubt that an upgraded hotshoe (with spring loaded contacts) could match the data rates that 5 GHz WiFi can provide, ie transfer speeds of >1 Mb/s, considering the care that must be taken when making wired ethernet connections at that speed (ie double-shielding of cables and connectors...)


5GHz Wifi is easily carried through a regular 8P8C connector.


----------



## dolina (Jun 21, 2021)

pzyber said:


> To me it matters. I've disliked Sony as a company since way before they were in the ILC business. Their attitude towards standards etc. I would never buy anything that has a main component manufactured by them.
> 
> It would also not look promising for the future if the Company whos system I'm investing into is dependent on their main competitor. Then they will then always be at a disadvantage. That goes for all companies.


Perish the thought, when Canon decides to do this it means curtains for any future camera purchase.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 21, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It will overheat even recording externally if I do not remove the cards but it takes longer to overheat than recording directly to the cards.
> If your theory were correct then it would not overheat recording 8K RAW.


You can only record 8k raw, 4k120 etc to the CFe card and not externally. The sensor/processor/card slots/small body/low temperature burn limits all contribute to the heat buildup in the R5. Recording externally unlimited is only for 4k30 (4k60?) and only with no cards in the slots. For some reason, having cards in the slots still generates heat with the controllers being activated - ready for recording.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Jun 21, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> You can only record 8k raw, 4k120 etc to the CFe card and not externally. The sensor/processor/card slots/small body/low temperature burn limits all contribute to the heat buildup in the R5. Recording externally unlimited is only for 4k30 (4k60?) and only with no cards in the slots. For some reason, having cards in the slots still generates heat with the controllers being activated - ready for recording.


The new Ninja V+ will let the R5 record 8K RAW externally.
Atomos has not given any indication that the R5 will be able to record 4K 120 FPS externally but they have indicated that a few other cameras are able to.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 21, 2021)

Diltiazem said:


> Not sure what to make of this. A Thai site is showing 134,900 Baht (about 4300 USD) for R3.
> 
> https://ipricethailand.com/ราคา/canon-eos-r3/#


Please buy and tell us the number of mp


----------



## John Wilde (Jun 21, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> And PS, it’s gonna cost 6999 euro. As we know from Canon. You’d expect it to be 4999 so Canon will add up a bit to make the price unreal and unfair, as we know Canon policy for years.


What you call "unreal and unfair" is known as Price Skimming, a standard pricing practice of many companies.









Price Skimming Definition: How It Works and Its Limitations


Price skimming is a strategy where a company will list a product as high as possible, gradually lowering the price until it meets a market average.




www.investopedia.com


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 21, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> What you call "unreal and unfair" is known as Price Skimming, a standard pricing practice of many companies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You could be on to something there, or not.....


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 21, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The new Ninja V+ will let the R5 record 8K RAW externally.
> Atomos has not given any indication that the R5 will be able to record 4K 120 FPS externally but they have indicated that a few other cameras are able to.


Has the Ninja V+ been released/tested yet? I saw an announcement but not availability and the announcement didn't have details..
The limiting bandwidth is the HDMI 2.0 port in the R5. It can't handle the full 2600mb/s bit rate of the R5's 8K raw or 1300mb/s 8k all-i or 1440mb/s 4K/120. It might handle the raw lite compressed option though this will generate more processor heat due to the compression. Not sure if there is an option for 8 vs 10 bit 4:2:2 either via the HDMI port.

In comparison, the Sony A1's 8k oversampled 4:2:0 bit rate is only 400mb/s so CFe type A cards can handle it and record externally. No true "raw" footage per se compared to Canon's perfectly dimensioned 8k/4k scaling.


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 21, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Has the Ninja V+ been released/tested yet? I saw an announcement but not availability and the announcement didn't have details..
> The limiting bandwidth is the HDMI 2.0 port in the R5. It can't handle the full 2600mb/s bit rate of the R5's 8K raw or 1300mb/s 8k all-i or 1440mb/s 4K/120. It might handle the raw lite compressed option though this will generate more processor heat due to the compression. Not sure if there is an option for 8 vs 10 bit 4:2:2 either via the HDMI port.
> 
> In comparison, the Sony A1's 8k oversampled 4:2:0 bit rate is only 400mb/s so CFe type A cards can handle it and record externally. No true "raw" footage per se compared to Canon's perfectly dimensioned 8k/4k scaling.


I haven't seen anything yet nor heard of the Canon firmware needed to make it work.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 21, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> I haven't seen anything yet nor heard of the Canon firmware needed to make it work.


Firmware 1.3 introduced:
"2. Added *Low Bitrate recording *option, allowing users to shoot smaller file size footage with lower image details. This is very useful for longer recordings that do not require the best possible image quality or when storage space is a concern."
https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-eos-r5-canon-eos-r6-and-canon-eos-1d-x-mark-iii-firmware-released/
I haven't tested it yet though. Happy to hear from others who have used the feature....


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Jun 21, 2021)

Czardoom said:


> Yes, in the past, Sony had a definite advantage over Canon when it came to noise. But for today's sensors, you couldn't be more incorrect. Prior to releasing the Canon 5D mark IV, Sony sensors had lower noise than Canon sensors due to their on chip ADC architecture which Canon was slow to move to. Since the change to on-chip ADC, Canon's sensors are essentially equal to Sony's when it comes to noise. So there has been a lot of improvement for Canon in the last 8 years.


There are noise comparison tools and if you for example compare the 1D X and the 1DX Mark III, there are eight years between them and you see some noise improvements, but not a lot. It is definitely much less than one stop in eight years. I would have expected at least two stops of improvement in that time frame. In the eight years before that 1D X, we easily had over two stops of improvement.

Here is a noise comparison tool to play around with:



Image comparison: Digital Photography Review


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 21, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Firmware 1.3 introduced:
> "2. Added *Low Bitrate recording *option, allowing users to shoot smaller file size footage with lower image details. This is very useful for longer recordings that do not require the best possible image quality or when storage space is a concern."
> https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-eos-r5-canon-eos-r6-and-canon-eos-1d-x-mark-iii-firmware-released/
> I haven't tested it yet though. Happy to hear from others who have used the feature....


But the firmware to output some form of 8k to the HDMI port is still missing, unless Canon has been really sneaky and checks for a V+ to be connected to offer the option.
Canon has been know to include features for products years ahead of the launch, just look at new speedlite features that "Just Work" on 'old' cameras.


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Jun 21, 2021)

Sadly the R3 will be much more expensive than the R5 plus the misaligned battery grip. Otherwise it would cannibalize the R5.


----------



## Cyborx (Jun 21, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Sadly the R3 will be much more expensive than the R5 plus the misaligned battery grip. Otherwise it would cannibalize the R5.


Exactly... there are still some wise people here.. imo it will be exactly the same price as the R5 so people have a choice between speed and megapixels


----------



## fentiger (Jun 21, 2021)

Canon R3 will be placed in between the R5 and 1DX3 
and will be priced accordingly, i will call it at £5500


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 21, 2021)

Sporgon said:


> Does that explain the overheating?





sulla said:


> No, the overheating isn't caused by the sensor. It is the processor that generates the "heat" and the insufficient heatsink that causes the "over".





Tremotino said:


> Your are right.
> But don't forget the CFexpress card and card slot chip. These two produce the head the camera can't handle for long time. I think the technology is there not ready for such high bitrates.
> If you use an external recorder, there are no overheating problems.





sulla said:


> The R5 camera outputs video data in HDMI format to the external recorder. I thinkt that reduces the load on the main processor greatly, because it doesn't have to compress that into h.265 format, that is done externally in the recorder. So the problem is the heat off the processor, not off the CFexpress chip or card.



If one looks at the thermal imaging test Roger Cicala did with an R5, it's most definitely the CFe card that is the hottest place in the camera when shooting 8K video and saving it internally.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 21, 2021)

Cyborx said:


> You mean that company that is already making half-baked beta versions of mirrorless pro bodies for over 3 years and then more or less fixing the issues after the fact with the third or fourth firmware revision?



There, I fixed it for 'ya.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 21, 2021)

SwissFrank said:


> If Canon were to base all its cameras on Sony (say) sensors, it would be hard to imagine Canon could do as good a job making cameras around those sensors as Sony could. We'd expect the Canon to be a bit more expensive (due to more expensive troubleshooting with a different company's sensor department), and, probably always second to market with a given sensor.



Funny, Nikon seemed to get more out of the same Sony (fabrication division) sensors than Sony (camera division) did for quite a long time.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 21, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Agreed! $4300 seems too low to me but if they undercut the price of both the A1 and A9 I would be very impressed.
> 
> This would definitely be the price point where I would 100% pick up the R3 over a second R5. Would be roughly the same price as an R5 + the R5's battery grip, which would be a sweet deal.



Canon prices product in different markets differently. We hear complaints about Europe and Australia paying more than the equivalent exchange rate compared to North American prices.

How much was the R5 and the BG-R10 at introduction in Thailand?


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 21, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> You could be on to something there, or not.....
> 
> View attachment 198477



You forgot to compare that one to the chart showing the price of the Sony α7r III or α7 II over time...


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 21, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> There are noise comparison tools and if you for example compare the 1D X and the 1DX Mark III, there are eight years between them and you see some noise improvements, but not a lot. It is definitely much less than one stop in eight years. I would have expected at least two stops of improvement in that time frame. In the eight years before that 1D X, we easily had over two stops of improvement.
> 
> Here is a noise comparison tool to play around with:
> 
> ...



Everyone had more improvement, noise wise, between 2004 and 2012 than they have between 2012 and 2020. 

We've been approaching the theoretical limits of the random nature of photon distribution in a light field of given intensity over time (Poisson distribution noise, which is a property of light, not of cameras and sensors) for several years.


----------



## AlanF (Jun 21, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> There are noise comparison tools and if you for example compare the 1D X and the 1DX Mark III, there are eight years between them and you see some noise improvements, but not a lot. It is definitely much less than one stop in eight years. I would have expected at least two stops of improvement in that time frame. In the eight years before that 1D X, we easily had over two stops of improvement.
> 
> Here is a noise comparison tool to play around with:
> 
> ...


You would need to break the laws of physics to have a two-stop improvement in noise at the iso12800 in that comparison tool setting! At high isos, the limiting factor in noise is mainly statistical fluctuations in the low number of photons captured (photon shot noise rather than electronic noise) and the signal to noise is given by sqrt(number of photons captured). Modern sensors have been greater than 80% efficient at capturing photons for several years and so there is room for only a tiny improvement, a fraction of a stop, and which is why you have seen only some improvement.

Edit: Michael, your reply was posted while I was writing mine and so sorry to repeat what you said.


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Jun 21, 2021)

What about the dark noise at ISO 100? For a long time Canon at a problem with underexposed areas that are pushed a few stops up. Unfortunately that can't be seen in those noise comparison tools. It was really shocking to me how noisy the dark areas get with a 18 megapixel full frame sensor from Canon. I hope at least that has improved somehow. 

Also the pink light that was visible in long exposed high ISO shots looked really bad. My idea was to basically use my camera as a night vision tool and to a very long exposure in almost complete darkness. That was no problem at all with analogue cameras, but even with the 1D X the results were not usable. 

I more and more come to the conclusion though that I might never need a new camera at all as long as my old one does not break. Noise did not improve much, I really don't need more than 3 fps and for architecture even the worst autofocus works fine. The only thing I like about the new cameras is the IBIS, but for that price I might be able to buy a very good gimbal that even beats IBIS.


----------



## AlanF (Jun 21, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> What about the dark noise at ISO 100? For a long time Canon at a problem with underexposed areas that are pushed a few stops up. Unfortunately that can't be seen in those noise comparison tools. It was really shocking to me how noisy the dark areas get with a 18 megapixel full frame sensor from Canon. I hope at least that has improved somehow.
> 
> Also the pink light that was visible in long exposed high ISO shots looked really bad. My idea was to basically use my camera as a night vision tool and to a very long exposure in almost complete darkness. That was no problem at all with analogue cameras, but even with the 1D X the results were not usable.
> 
> I more and more come to the conclusion though that I might never need a new camera at all as long as my old one does not break. Noise did not improve much, I really don't need more than 3 fps and for architecture even the worst autofocus works fine. The only thing I like about the new cameras is the IBIS, but for that price I might be able to buy a very good gimbal that even beats IBIS.


You complained about the lack of improvemet in noise at high iso, and that's what Michael and I explained to you. You wrote "for example compare the 1D X and the 1DX Mark III, there are eight years between them and you see some noise improvements, but not a lot." In fact, there is a huge improvement at low iso - you can see that in DR vs iso plots (and you can see the improvements using the DPR noise comparison tools if you know how to use them). At iso 100, the 1DXIII is over 2 stops improved and the R5 nearly 3 stops. Improvements at low iso reflect the improvement in circuit noise. The fact that the DR vs iso plots are nearly linear throughout shows there is now little improvement at low iso for the R5 etc.



Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting


----------



## AlanF (Jun 21, 2021)

And this is how you can use dpr tools to see the improvements at low iso - push from iso 100 to a higher iso - the improvement from 1DXII to III is there, and for the 5DIII to IV it is massive:



Image comparison: Digital Photography Review


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Jun 21, 2021)

AlanF said:


> And this is how you can use dpr tools to see the improvements at low iso - push from iso 100 to a higher iso - the improvement from 1DXII to III is there, and for the 5DIII to IV it is massive:
> 
> 
> 
> Image comparison: Digital Photography Review


I wonder why the R6 has a lower dynamic range at low ISO than the R5. Shouldn't larger pixels help when it comes to dynamic range?


----------



## AlanF (Jun 21, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I wonder why the R6 has a lower dynamic range at low ISO than the R5. Shouldn't larger pixels help when it comes to dynamic range?


There are some artefacts with the R5 due to a change in amplifier circuitry between isoi320 and iso400. Larger pixels do have greater full well depth but they also have larger dark current, but that's not the problem.


----------



## Joules (Jun 21, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> Shouldn't larger pixels help when it comes to dynamic range?


No, not if you care about an image rather than an individual pixel.

Also, the R6 uses the 1DX III sensor. While that is an excellent sensor, Canon uses some even more improved technologies in the R5. And the R3 will obviously push that even further, being both stacked and back side illuminated.


----------



## Kit. (Jun 21, 2021)

Diltiazem said:


> Not sure what to make of this. A Thai site is showing 134,900 Baht (about 4300 USD) for R3.
> 
> https://ipricethailand.com/ราคา/canon-eos-r3/#


I would expect it to be just a misreported price for R5.









ราคา Canon EOS R5 พร้อมโปรโมชั่นราคาพิเศษ ต.ค. 2021


ต.ค., 2021 เปรียบเทียบราคา Canon EOS R5 รุ่นใหม่และมือสอง เริ่มต้นที่ 129,990 บาท บาท เช็คราคาถูก ราคาล่าสุด รีวิว สเปค และโปรโมชั่น




ipricethailand.com


----------



## RayValdez360 (Jun 21, 2021)

AlanF said:


> You would need to break the laws of physics to have a two-stop improvement in noise at the iso12800 in that comparison tool setting! At high isos, the limiting factor in noise is mainly statistical fluctuations in the low number of photons captured (photon shot noise rather than electronic noise) and the signal to noise is given by sqrt(number of photons captured). Modern sensors have been greater than 80% efficient at capturing photons for several years and so there is room for only a tiny improvement, a fraction of a stop, and which is why you have seen only some improvement.
> 
> Edit: Michael, your reply was posted while I was writing mine and so sorry to repeat what you said.


Couldnt they use software and AI to help with noise and detail or at least have an advanced correction mode in case purists dont like it.


----------



## AlanF (Jun 21, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Couldnt they use software and AI to help with noise and detail or at least have an advanced correction mode in case purists dont like it.


That's what we do now in post-processing or the camera does to various degrees in RAW to jpeg processing, and has done for generations and is ever improving. But, it doesn't alter the signal/noise of the sensor or its dynamic range. We already have the choice of using jpegs from Canon's in-built software or as "purists" we process the RAW files ourselves. As processors increase in power, not doubt Topaz AI Denoise or its equivalent might be able to work at 30 fps to output jpegs.


----------



## briangus (Jun 21, 2021)

Kit. said:


> I would expect it to be just a misreported price for R5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats the price of the R5 in Thailand
The shop it links to has a coming soon page with no price.
Coming soon here means at least 3 months after it is actually released.


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Jun 21, 2021)

AlanF said:


> There are some artefacts with the R5 due to a change in amplifier circuitry between isoi320 and iso400. Larger pixels do have greater full well depth but they also have larger dark current, but that's not the problem.


I noticed that the same cameras show less dynamic range in that diagram if you crop them to APS-C. So it seems to take into consideration the pixel density of an image that helps to recover more detail. I wonder if there is another tool that gives me the dynamic range without considering the pixel density. It feels wrong to say that an image loses dynamic range by cropping it. It still is a smaller part of a larger image.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 21, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Couldnt they use software and AI to help with noise and detail or at least have an advanced correction mode in case purists dont like it.


Unfortunatlely camera manufacturers already apply some noise reduction algorithms on RAW images that you can't disable. I really hate that. RAW for me means really raw pixels. That secret noise reduction is a form of cheating. They just want to make their cameras look good on paper when it comes to "RAW noise with noise reduction disabled".


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 21, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I noticed that the same cameras show less dynamic range in that diagram if you crop them to APS-C. So it seems to take into consideration the pixel density of an image that helps to recover more detail. I wonder if there is another tool that gives me the dynamic range without considering the pixel density. It feels wrong to say that an image loses dynamic range by cropping it. It still is a smaller part of a larger image.


It may feel wrong to you, but it's just math. Image height is a component of the DR measurement, a cropped image from a FF sensor has less height, therefore the DR is lower (in a non-linear way). See this.


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## AlanF (Jun 21, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I noticed that the same cameras show less dynamic range in that diagram if you crop them to APS-C. So it seems to take into consideration the pixel density of an image that helps to recover more detail. I wonder if there is another tool that gives me the dynamic range without considering the pixel density. It feels wrong to say that an image loses dynamic range by cropping it. It still is a smaller part of a larger image.


The reason why they appear to have lower DR when cropped to APS-C mode isn't because of pixel density, it is because of the way DR is measured. They define DR as the dynamic range you see when you enlarge the image to 8"x10" and hold it at a distance equivalent to arms length. A crop image has to be enlarged 1.6x the height and 1.6x the width of a FF image, and this lowers the measured DR.


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## SteveC (Jun 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> There, I fixed it for 'ya.


Someone needs to keep S*nyx honest, thanks!

[Edit to censor the four letter word.]


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 21, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> If one looks at the thermal imaging test Roger Cicala did with an R5, it's most definitely the CFe card that is the hottest place in the camera when shooting 8K video and saving it internally.


Kolari Vision did a teardown of the internals and they now have a heatsink mod for the R5 for $400.
I am not sure that it gained enough overheat time for the mod to be worth it but Kolari Vision is an interesting company.








R5 Cooling Mod Doubles 8K Recording Time, Cuts Recovery Time By 66%


This modded R5 is significantly better at managing its heat than Canon's stock camera.




petapixel.com


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## Franklyok (Jun 21, 2021)

Will we have 15 stops of DR on R3 or should we wait for more, R1 , or other 20 stops DR rumored cameras? I have patience.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 22, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Kolari Vision did a teardown of the internals and they now have a heatsink mod for the R5 for $400.
> I am not sure that it gained enough overheat time for the mod to be worth it but Kolari Vision is an interesting company.
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting solution! Similar to the hack with copper heatsink that someone on youtube did but with Koalari's warranty.
What is doesn't mention is how to reduce the temperature on the back panel. It would be foolish to leave the LCD turned in and be damaged when video is being taken. Low temperature burns would also be an issue to be aware of.
Tilta advertises a cage/peltier cooler for the R5 with the cage being a massive heatsink but it doesn't appear that it can be ordered for some reason. It would reduce the back panel temperatures effectively but needs a separate power supply.

Has anyone measured the 8k raw lite record time when firmware 1.3 was released?


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## MoonMadness (Jun 22, 2021)

Canon made it public about 2 or 3 so years ago that they were going to be investing a ton more money on R&D for sensors and even, if I recall correctly, open a new facility just for that purpose. I forgot all the details of the article I read about it, but it was enough to leave a lasting impression that Canon wouldn't ever be replying on other companies to produce high end sensor for their own cameras.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 22, 2021)

David - Sydney said:


> Interesting solution! Similar to the hack with copper heatsink that someone on youtube did but with Koalari's warranty.
> What is doesn't mention is how to reduce the temperature on the back panel


People seem to focus on that copper heatsink hack but it did not even gain as much record time as the Kolari one and made the case very hot as I think will still happen with this one.
That other hack did not get it to record indefinitely until the guy put a fan into a battery grip.
I would buy that hack in a second and that one would not void a warranty unless it was the cause of the problem.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jun 22, 2021)

I hope that we will also see a third party battery grip that really aligns to the R5 or the R6. It should look like it is a part of the camera.


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## melgross (Jun 22, 2021)

The e-mail CR sent me said that Canon’s new sensor would be 30.1MP.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 22, 2021)

melgross said:


> The e-mail CR sent me said that Canon’s new sensor would be 30.1MP.


That's 0.2 MP less than my EOS R. Forget it, I'm out.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 22, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> I hope that we will also see a third party battery grip that really aligns to the R5 or the R6. It should look like it is a part of the camera.


Some guy hacked together a battery grip with a built-in fan to cool down the camera.
That is what I really want.


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## RayValdez360 (Jun 24, 2021)

Vanessa Joy has the Camera now. It seems like people have it so the camera is pretty much complete but why are they so secretive.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 25, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Vanessa Joy has the Camera now. It seems like people have it so the camera is pretty much complete but why are they so secretive.



Because of NDA obviously. And if the announcement is next week then it's no point for Canon to release more details.


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## RayValdez360 (Jun 25, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Because of NDA obviously. And if the announcement is next week then it's no point for Canon to release more details.


Is there an announcement next week?


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 25, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Is there an announcement next week?


Very likely. The 14-35 lens image already leaked and some photographers have the R3 in hand.


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## MoonMadness (Jun 25, 2021)

"Canon will officially announce the Canon EOS R3 on June 29, 2021. This date is based on living in the western hemisphere." - top article today on CR's landing page.


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