# Here is the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6, along with the announcement date



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 18, 2020)

> I asked, and my sources came through. I now know the announcement date for the Canon EOS R5, Canon EOS R6, and new RF mount lenses.
> The big day? The official announcement will take place on or around July 9, 2020!
> *Canon products being announced on July 9, 2020*
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Mark3794 (Jun 18, 2020)

Well they really went "all in"


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## wtlloyd (Jun 18, 2020)

September! Guess I will keep on buying stocks until then!


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 18, 2020)

Wow, interesting. Those new styled long primes look much bigger than i expected.


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## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

#FreeTheR5


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## wockawocka (Jun 18, 2020)

'The EOS R5 won’t begin shipping until September'

Does that mean the R5 beats the 1DX as the longest development to availability camera?


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## Go Wild (Jun 18, 2020)

So my retailer was right...EOS R5 just in September..... Damn....What a long journey....  Well....I am waiting since 2018...so...just 3 months more....


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## trulandphoto (Jun 18, 2020)

A few observations.

The R6, with the same form factor as the R5, looks like it might not be all that inexpensive.

The RF 70-200mm f/4L might be black rather than white? I like that.

The f/11 primes could be amazing.

Can't wait for the announcement so I can start a shopping list/plan.


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## Tmjc.wolf (Jun 18, 2020)

If the 70-200 f4 is in the picture (and why wouldn't it be?) it seems that it's a black lens unlike it's EF counterpart. Also it has to be pretty compact otherwise it would stick out more. 
And I'll second that the 600 and 800mm primes look much bigger than expected.


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## cerealito (Jun 18, 2020)

I'm ready to restart the japanese economy, come on!


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## wockawocka (Jun 18, 2020)

trulandphoto said:


> The RF 70-200mm f/4L might be black rather than white? I like that.



Same here, I really hope it's the same in operation as the RF 2.8


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## cerealito (Jun 18, 2020)

The R6 also seems to have a big mode dial, so probably no top lcd screen?


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## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Wow, interesting. Those new styled long primes look much bigger than i expected.


They are TINY.. compare the 100-500 to the 100-400L and against the super tele's on the EF side.


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## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

cerealito said:


> The R6 also seems to have a big mode dial, so probably no top lcd screen?


that was already mentioned back in the original leaks that it wasn't going to have a top LCD panel.


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## arbitrage (Jun 18, 2020)

I like the look of the 600/800. Looks like they will be extendable to go to shooting positions as they look a lot shorter than the patents compared to the 100-500. Looks like that top dark (rubberized) section will extend from the silver section.


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## VORON (Jun 18, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Wow, interesting. Those new styled long primes look much bigger than i expected.


With F11 I expected something much closer to pancake design.


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## arbitrage (Jun 18, 2020)

VORON said:


> With F11 I expected something much closer to pancake design.


If we believe the patent, the length of the 600 f/11 should be around 320mm to the mount. In this image it is slightly shorter than the 100-500. The 100-500 was seen next to the 100-400II at the photo show. It looked maybe 5-10mm longer than the 100-400 putting it around 200-210mm. So these must be extendable unless Canon used a totally different patent design. This fits with this new design of the two lenses.


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## mrproxy (Jun 18, 2020)

Is it R6 in the middle? I would put R5 as higher end in middle of lineup.
Or they are just side by side .


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 18, 2020)

Definitely interested to see the R6 unveiled completely. If it looks like the camera i am hoping there may be some spoiling of the wife happening in the lead up to Xmas. Only one thing scares me. VIEWFINDER. Will it be good enough? I could just scrape by if it is as good as th R but certainly no worse. Oh well. Only time will tell.


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## arbitrage (Jun 18, 2020)

mrproxy said:


> Is it R6 in the middle? I would put R5 as higher end in middle of lineup.
> Or they are just side by side .


They are side by side in the front. Showcasing the two new cameras. R5 on the left with top plate LCD. R6 on the right with dial instead of LCD (agrees with all the original rumors). I guess the R6 is slightly ahead...I wouldn't read much into that though.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 18, 2020)

VORON said:


> With F11 I expected something much closer to pancake design.



Not pancake but maybe i expected a bit smaller considering the 600mm is 3 stops slower than the F4 version and it's also DO.


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## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

Tmjc.wolf said:


> If the 70-200 f4 is in the picture (and why wouldn't it be?) it seems that it's a black lens unlike it's EF counterpart. Also it has to be pretty compact otherwise it would stick out more.



I have to count the lenses.. maybe it's the one beside the 70-200 2.8L? but it looks fat for an F4.

I think this is right .. seems to be no 50mm or70-200 F4.

https://www.canonnews.com/image-of-the-upcoming-canon-rf-products-coming-july-9th


The lens with the ? I think it would be the 85mm Macro.


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## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Not pancake but maybe i expected a bit smaller considering the 600mm is 3 stops slower than the F4 version and it's also DO.


we did a comparison. it's a TON smaller. look on our page, we have a comparison of the 100-400 against the super tele's .. they are night and day smaller.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

? could be the 85mm f/2 Macro IS STM
I think the RF 50mm f/1.8 STM and the RF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM are the two lenses missing from this picture, and they will be released a bit later on.


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## DBounce (Jun 18, 2020)

I just hope the date doesn’t move back again.


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## WriteLight (Jun 18, 2020)

Man, it's good to have some concrete dates but I was hoping it would ship sooner. Maybe it means that they want to minimize shortages. Does it still open for pre-orders on announcement?


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## BroderLund (Jun 18, 2020)

Edit: my bad. It's the Ra on the far right


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## Go Wild (Jun 18, 2020)

BroderLund said:


> What's the fifth camera? It's the only one not showing its model number. Looks identical to the RP, but the RP is on the far right.


EOS Ra


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 18, 2020)

Good to have a date so everything will be out in the open. As I'm going to have to wait for the R5 if it as priced as expected. , I'd love to know if the 1.4 & 2 x extenders are compatible with the RF24-104 F4l and RF 70-200MF2.8? There have been some differing opinions. Some say yes they are, some say no they are not as the design of the lenses dont allow enough room between the sensor and the lens, also are they designed just for RF lenses or for EF / RF?


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## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

BroderLund said:


> What's the fifth camera? It's the only one not showing its model number. Looks identical to the RP, but the RP is on the far right.



EOS Ra - That got me excited for 10 minutes until I remembered the Ra. the two right hand cameras are the same. just a slightly different perspective.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Good to have a date so everything will be out in the open. As I'm going to have to wait for the R5 if it as priced as expected. , I'd love to know if the 1.4 & 2 x extenders are compatible with the RF24-104 F4l and RF 70-200MF2.8? There have been some differing opinions. Some say yes they are, some say no they are not as the design of the lenses dont allow enough room between the sensor and the lens, also are they designed just for RF lenses or for EF / RF?


The only lens, that will be compatible (for now) is the RF 100-500mm f/4.5-7.1L IS USM
(and possibly the two f/11 DO lenses, but they are non-L lenses, so they might not be)


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 18, 2020)

As an aside to the huge announcements, can anyone offer any information on the drop in filter mounts? I can only find mounts that are for the EF-EOS R but none specifically to use with RF lenses?


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 18, 2020)

padam said:


> The only lens, that will be compatible (for now) is the RF 100-500mm f/4.5-7.1L IS USM
> (and possibly the two f/11 DO lenses, but they are non-L lenses, so they might not be)


Interesting, I cant find any information on this and canon won't comment. Not sure of the rationale for the bigger lenses to be compatible with the extenders? Why extend an already big lens and reduce the aperture even more? I might be looking at this the wrong way as I've never used extenders but wouldn't it make more sense for extenders to work with medium ranges like the 70-200?

So confusing


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## Richard Anthony (Jun 18, 2020)

Any idea when the new flash units are going to be announced ?


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## amorse (Jun 18, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> As an aside to the huge announcements, can anyone offer any information on the drop in filter mounts? I can only find mounts that are for the EF-EOS R but none specifically to use with RF lenses?


I'm pretty sure the drop in filter mounts only work with the EF-RF adapter and there is no option to use those with RF lenses


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## Sharlin (Jun 18, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Why extend an already big lens and reduce the aperture even more? I might be looking at this the wrong way as I've never used extenders but wouldn't it make more sense for extenders to work with medium ranges like the 70-200?



The 70–200mm is designed to exploit the short flange distance of the RF mount. Unfortunately that makes it physically incompatible with extenders.


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## Kit. (Jun 18, 2020)

Do I understand correctly that R5 shows only one built-in microphone hole, while R6, R and Ra show two?


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## LensFungus (Jun 18, 2020)

I don't see myself preordering the Canon R5 for September when Black Friday is only two months later.


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## Eclipsed (Jun 18, 2020)

It appears the TCs are RF-RF, which suggests they are laying the foundation for an RF big white. I’d predict a RF300 f2.8.


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## ildyria (Jun 18, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I have to count the lenses.. maybe it's the one beside the 70-200 2.8L? but it looks fat for an F4.
> 
> I think this is right .. seems to be no 50mm or70-200 F4.
> 
> ...





Would be my guess. Though a 85 f/2 instead of the 50 would also make sense.


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## LensFungus (Jun 18, 2020)

The Canon RF 50mm f/1.8 IS STM will be very exciting for the community. On the one hand people are used to the cheap EF 50mm 1.8 lenses but if Canon wants the same amount of money they will definitely sacrifice image quality. If Canon wants around $600 (like the Nikon Z 50mm 1.8 S last year) the image quality will be on par with the Sony 55mm 1.8 or Nikon Z 50mm but people will, again, complain.


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## TheSalvatore (Jun 18, 2020)

Sigh... Shipping only in September... Can't they swap the shipping month with R6? R5 in Aug and R6 in Sept...


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## JustUs7 (Jun 18, 2020)

Well, if I could only get one, it would have to be the 85 f/2 macro. I would have said 50 but I already have the 35, I enjoy macro, and with IS on the 50 I don’t expect it will be as cheap as the EF 50 anyway. 

Wonder why the 70-200 f/4 and the 85 f/2 don’t seem to be in the picture? Edit: Never mind - addressed in the article.


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## TomR (Jun 18, 2020)

hey so for those on the hunt for CFexpress cards, there is a really good deal on amazon.ca right now for 256gb for $447 CDN. its about 30% regular price

https://www.amazon.ca/SONY-Cfexpress-Tough-Memory-Card/


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## nickstan (Jun 18, 2020)

Is there any rumors on the R6 price?


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 18, 2020)

Oh good the R6 doesn't look RP sized.


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## degos (Jun 18, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> The 70–200mm is designed to exploit the short flange distance of the RF mount. Unfortunately that makes it physically incompatible with extenders.



That's doesn't make much sense since the extenders can be designed from scratch to have any recess distance necessary...

Anyway I haven't seen any evidence that the 70-200 'exploits' the short flange any more than any other lens. All the size benefits derive from its telescoping design.


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## Sharlin (Jun 18, 2020)

VORON said:


> With F11 I expected something much closer to pancake design.



Aperture makes very little difference to the physical length of a telephoto lens.


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## Sharlin (Jun 18, 2020)

degos said:


> That's doesn't make much sense since the extenders can be designed from scratch to have any recess distance necessary...



They could, probably, at the expense of something else. Presumably image quality.



> Anyway I haven't seen any evidence that the 70-200 'exploits' the short flange any more than any other lens. All the size benefits derive from its telescoping design.





(via LensRentals)

That large, SWC, aspherical rear element? Definitely exploits the properties of the RF mount. It's a very different design to its EF cousins.


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## bbasiaga (Jun 18, 2020)

Can't wait to see the new 800 in a picture next to the big white 800.....

And we need some more R6 leaks!


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## 12Broncos (Jun 18, 2020)

So happy! Anyone see a possible price on the 100-500mm?


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## scottkinfw (Jun 18, 2020)

Great! Any word on prices for the lenses or the R5?


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

nickstan said:


> Is there any rumors on the R6 price?


Depends on how they market it, with the IBIS dual card slots, fast frame rates, it should be around 2000$ or a bit more, if they continue to limit the dynamic range and video features, which wouldn't be surprising at all, to say the least.

Btw, the curved edge on the top right corner reminds me of an T7i/800D or similar.


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## mpb001 (Jun 18, 2020)

I’m really glad to see that the R6 appears to have a similar body and grip as the R5. Even if its a polycarbonate shell, it looks to share similar ergonomics as the R5.


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## neurorx (Jun 18, 2020)

It is a bit disappointing that the R5 will be released after the R6 given most of the press has been around the former. I don't see any pro level RF longer lenses 400, 600 at f2.8 to F4L, etc that would set the stage for an R1 (1D equivalent....I held off hoping we would hear something after the R5, but no new glass). It looks like more waiting....


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## Christoph Müller (Jun 18, 2020)

For me, there is one lens currently missing in the RF lens line up. And that is a EF 100mm F2.8L IS Macro lens equivalent. A lot of times it was part of some rumored future lens list, but the Canon RF 85mm f/2 Macro IS STM seams also not to be this equivalent because it is no Pro L lens.

But why would Canon come out with a second amateur macro lens after the RF 35mm Macro, if it has no pro macro lenses in its RF lineup?


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## Christoph Müller (Jun 18, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I have to count the lenses.. maybe it's the one beside the 70-200 2.8L? but it looks fat for an F4.
> 
> I think this is right .. seems to be no 50mm or70-200 F4.
> 
> ...


Eather it is the 85mm F2 Macro or it could also be the 70-200 F4?


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

neurorx said:


> It is a bit disappointing that the R5 will be released after the R6 given most of the press has been around the former. I don't see any pro level RF longer lenses 400, 600 at f2.8 to F4L, etc that would set the stage for an R1 (1D equivalent....I held off hoping we would hear something after the R5, but no new glass). It looks like more waiting....


For now, the agencies will use 1DX III bodies (with the existing lenses), they won't switch to mirrorless just yet.

They have just released their EF 400mm and 600mm version III lenses, so those are the lenses least likely to be coming first in the RF mount, even the 400/4 DO II is not that old, a 200/2, 300/2.8, 500/4 etc. are much more likely to come first, or maybe some other DO lenses that we don't know about yet. They will take their time but more lenses that are compatible with their RF teleconverters are expected to come for sure.


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## Roy Hunte (Jun 18, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> I don't see myself preordering the Canon R5 for September when Black Friday is only two months later.


I highly doubt that will get a black Friday markdown so early


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## Maximilian (Jun 18, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I have to count the lenses.. maybe it's the one beside the 70-200 2.8L? but it looks fat for an F4.
> 
> I think this is right .. seems to be no 50mm or70-200 F4.
> 
> ...


Yes! I suppose you are right.

So where's the 50/1.8???
Ah, got it... they will continue to bully one specific CR member and offer no decent, cheap 50 mm lens - even in the RF lineup


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## Maximilian (Jun 18, 2020)

Looking at the R5/R6 and thinking about the expected price tag,
it seems to become interesting to look at the "outdated" 5D4 for me...


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## unfocused (Jun 18, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> I don't see myself preordering the Canon R5 for September when Black Friday is only two months later.


Don't get your hopes up. There won't be any significant Black Friday deals on the R5.


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## ordinaryfilmmaker (Jun 18, 2020)

Thanks for the heads up Craig. Feels good finally knowing the dates. We can set you phones to a daily countdown...


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 18, 2020)

amorse said:


> I'm pretty sure the drop in filter mounts only work with the EF-RF adapter and there is no option to use those with RF lenses


Well that's pants lol. You'd have thought there would be one for the RF lenses. Go figure.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 18, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> I don't see myself preordering the Canon R5 for September when Black Friday is only two months later.



Black Friday is when retailers get rid of stuff that hasn't sold all year while tempting you in with deals that often aren't deals. Ether way its not gonna be a Canon R5 fire sale.


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 18, 2020)

Just wanted to shout out to all the individuals who complained about previous posts of what news and info this contributor was able to give us, saying that it was just fluff and pointless, I personally thought and felt he did great and did what he could to keep us informed so now with this great I hope you entitled whiners can now shut your traps for a bit till you find someone else to moan about on here.


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## unfocused (Jun 18, 2020)

To me, one of the most interesting things here is the publicity photo showing all five bodies. My conclusion: (1) The R and RP are staying in the lineup. (2) We aren't going to see any additional bodies anytime soon. 

There is a lot of price room between the R and the R5. The R6 is going to come in there somewhere. Maybe $2,300-$2,700?


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## unfocused (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> Just wanted to shout out to all the individuals who complained about previous posts of what news and info this contributor was able to give us, saying that it was just fluff and pointless, I personally thought and felt he did great and did what he could to keep us informed so now with this great I hope you entitled whiners can now shut your traps for a bit till you find someone else to moan about on here.


That won't take long.


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## JustUs7 (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> Just wanted to shout out to all the individuals who complained about previous posts of what news and info this contributor was able to give us, saying that it was just fluff and pointless, I personally thought and felt he did great and did what he could to keep us informed so now with this great I hope you entitled whiners can now shut your traps for a bit till you find someone else to moan about on here.



Uhhh... we already new July 9 at the latest. Nothing substantive here. Where are the prices?

There.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 18, 2020)

unfocused said:


> There is a lot of price room between the R and the R5. The R6 is going to come in there somewhere. Maybe $2,300-$2,700?



Depends what it is competing against. On paper the Z6 has 12 FPS(not really but kinda), and the same MP(rumoured), and low light king, and CFExpress cards. And that camera is £1500 just now and the Sony is £2000. I would go for £2000/$2000 range with good build quality.


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## mb66energy (Jun 18, 2020)

My guess is that the 2.0 85mm macro lens is the third lens from the left and it seems quite compact (but an extending design) - not shure I will buy it but makes an interesting 85mm f/1.8 substitute with (again my guess) 1:2 Macro/Closeup capability.
Maybe I will wait for f/2.8 100 L macro with fixed length design and buy it according to reviews - should be at least equal to the non-L USM equivalent in EF land.

But one remark about RF lenses in general. As user of EF-M and EF-S cameras I have some EF lenses and maybe I will use them for an extended period. Why? I like the fact that I can adapt lots of lenses to all my cameras and stepping into time lapsee I miss, I REALLY MISS distance scales in the lenses which is fast and direct compared to read the distance from the display and wait a second if I have 1 fps with Magic Lantern (display refresh = frame rate ...).


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 18, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> Uhhh... we already new July 9 at the latest. Nothing substantive here. Where are the prices?
> 
> There.



DING DING got a Winner here


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## Whowe (Jun 18, 2020)

Sharlin said:


> They could, probably, at the expense of something else. Presumably image quality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. Also, look at the lens cap for the extenders. They stick up a lot like, indicating they have the inserts like the EF extenders they physically go inside the lens. The diagram above of the lens elements shows the back element is basically flush with the lens mount.


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## Dj 7th (Jun 18, 2020)

Canon better make these the best Full Frame Mirrorless cameras on the market. The hype will put it under so much scrutiny.


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## yestostills (Jun 18, 2020)

How about a photo centric 5D Mark V? They couldn’t abandon the EF lens series that quickly?


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## Whowe (Jun 18, 2020)

By the way, July 9 announcement date could mean late on July 8 for the U.S.


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## liv_img (Jun 18, 2020)

I think the mystery lens on the left is the 85/2, to big to be the 50/1.8


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 18, 2020)

Dj 7th said:


> Canon better make these the best Full Frame Mirrorless cameras on the market. The hype will put it under so much scrutiny.



I'm not sure if I personally would put that extreme expectation on them for this... I'm coming from a 5D Mkiii and have always been happy with the lenses and then just jumping to the mirrorless would world for the first time with an RP and handful of rF lenses, I've already felt like I've been blown away and spoiled with the features of it compared to my old 5Dmkiii... I know over the years Sony and other companies have done amazing jobs, but I never was able to make the jump so missed out on understanding these expectations... but seeing the quality of photographs from my RP and RF lenses currrently... i'm already so satisfied and can't wait to get a R5 an even if the R5 isnt the BEST Mirrorless camera at the end of this wave, id still be damned happy with the RF lenses I've been using... and I'm looking forward to seeing what Sony will answer with, and even it's better than the R5... I know I'm choosing the R5 because of Canon glass


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## BillB (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> Just wanted to shout out to all the individuals who complained about previous posts of what news and info this contributor was able to give us, saying that it was just fluff and pointless, I personally thought and felt he did great and did what he could to keep us informed so now with this great I hope you entitled whiners can now shut your traps for a bit till you find someone else to moan about on here.


Not having something to complain about just shows lack of imagination.


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## canonnews (Jun 18, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> I don't see myself preordering the Canon R5 for September when Black Friday is only two months later.


unless the R5 is a complete bomb, it's very unlikely that it will be going on sale the first black friday.


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## slclick (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> DING DING got a Winner here


I'm ruling it void, with all the context issues and grammar.


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## Dj 7th (Jun 18, 2020)

PhotoRN86 said:


> I'm not sure if I personally would put that extreme expectation on them for this... I'm coming from a 5D Mkiii and have always been happy with the lenses and then just jumping to the mirrorless would world for the first time with an RP and handful of rF lenses, I've already felt like I've been blown away and spoiled with the features of it compared to my old 5Dmkiii... I know over the years Sony and other companies have done amazing jobs, but I never was able to make the jump so missed out on understanding these expectations... but seeing the quality of photographs from my RP and RF lenses currrently... i'm already so satisfied and can't wait to get a R5 an even if the R5 isnt the BEST Mirrorless camera at the end of this wave, id still be damned happy with the RF lenses I've been using... and I'm looking forward to seeing what Sony will answer with, and even it's better than the R5... I know I'm choosing the R5 because of Canon glass




I agree with you. As I said in a different post, I kept falling in love more and more with the EOS R everyday. I know the lenses are a part of the reasons.


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## Antono Refa (Jun 18, 2020)

An RF 50mm f/1.8 IS STM is possible, but an EF 50mm f/1.8 IS USM is not?


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## iohansen (Jun 18, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Well that's pants lol. You'd have thought there would be one for the RF lenses. Go figure.


That would not be possible for an RF lens as it would increase the register distance.


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## Chaitanya (Jun 18, 2020)

Eagerly waiting for anouncement.


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## Whowe (Jun 18, 2020)

slclick said:


> I'm ruling it void, with all the context issues and grammar.


By the way, I like your SWWYH signature. (Start With What You Have)

It's making me think about whether I really need to upgrade or is it something I just want to do. I love the specs of the R5 so far for photography, but I know I can still do so much more with the 7D mkii that I have. (Actually, I just picked up a second 7Dmkii with low count, one owner for $500 as backup/spare, "insurance policy for breakdown", etc.!) This extra time before shipping will give me a little more time to make sure if I really should upgrade now or not.

Thanks for the reminder...


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## PhotoRN86 (Jun 18, 2020)

Dj 7th said:


> I agree with you. As I said in a different post, I kept falling in love more and more with the EOS R everyday. I know the lenses are a part of the reasons.



I had the luxury and the curse of living in a cave from camera advances for 8 years with my 5D mkiii and lenses, that when now if you throw me any kind of mirrorless camera with an EVF I'd be like... what is this sorcery... so yea.. I'm just easily impressed and glad you're enjoying the R, I rented it to test the RF lenses I bought and had such a great time with it that I debated if I really needed the R5 at all... but i'm sitting from a good chunk of Insurance money from the theft of my old camera stuff that I told myself I should just be patient and use this random chance to splurge on a camera... and obviously it'll be tthe R5... but i had to get an RP because sitting on the RF lenses I bought before getting the R5 was torture with not having a body to use them.. so I decided to get the RP as a future compact full frame secondary camera when the R5 releases and the RP has definitely delivered


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## bbasiaga (Jun 18, 2020)

iohansen said:


> That would not be possible for an RF lens as it would increase the register distance.


There were one or two EF lenses that had a drop in filter slot designed in to the bayonet. That could still be done on the RF lenses. But a clip on adapter like the telextenders would not work for the reason you listed. 

I think it was the really wide lenses that had the filter mount - and the stuff with non-flat front elements.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jun 18, 2020)

It will be interesting to see what level of shipping inventory Canon has when they roll out these new bodies and lenses. Given how anemic global camera sales are right now, it seems like they should have lots of spare manufacturing ability. Of course, some of that capacity might not be useful for these new sku's and it's possible that there are still a lot of individual parts that they might have trouble sourcing. It's also posible that they will limit availability for marketing purposes. Nothing drives sales interest like perceived scarcity. It will also be interesting to see how broad and deep the market actually is for a ~$4000 camera. Should be an exciting fall in CanonLand. I'll have to stock up on the popcorn.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 18, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> 'The EOS R5 won’t begin shipping until September'
> 
> Does that mean the R5 beats the 1DX as the longest development to availability camera?


It takes at least 2 years so we don't know the time line of development. Did you think development somehow just started when a camera is announced? They have patents for mirrorless going back 10 years. The announcement lead time is timed by salespeople to keep interest up, while letting factories (which must practice social distancing) and buyers who must scour the markets for components have time to build inventory. The number of R5 cameras needed for initial inventory will far surpass the 1DX Mark III.


----------



## tomri (Jun 18, 2020)

Antono Refa said:


> An RF 50mm f/1.8 IS STM is possible, but an EF 50mm f/1.8 IS USM is not?


They take it in baby steps. I was really disappointed by the AF of the EF 50 1.8 STM compared to STM kit zooms of similar price. So slow and noisy! RnD probably gets requirements from product mgmt not to improve too much over the previous product, even if that is 20yrs old....


----------



## tomri (Jun 18, 2020)

I bet the R6 is tailored to exactly match the A7iii, can see the shiny plastic and pasm dial from here. Will be interesting when we get an A7iv .. ;-)


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Jun 18, 2020)

£4,000 instead if the hoped-for £3,500 made me hesitate about pre-ordering. September delivery could be the final straw - that is close to the end of my main photography season (especially with no Sept/Oct trip planned this year, and the possibility of bird hides still being closed) so perhaps I will wait until early new year. :-(


----------



## mangobutter (Jun 18, 2020)

I'd love an RF 35 Mark II, internally focusing, non-macro. I love my RF 35, just the noise is annoying. I feel like in 2020, no lens should be making the BUZZZ bUZZZ BUZZZ AF sound.

I was hoping the R6 would be in the RP shell... I really don't want the size of the camera to get too big! but from that photo, the way the products are arranged.. it's hard to tell how big these new products are.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 18, 2020)

TomR said:


> hey so for those on the hunt for CFexpress cards, there is a really good deal on amazon.ca right now for 256gb for $447 CDN. its about 30% regular price
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/SONY-Cfexpress-Tough-Memory-Card/


With the Sony recall and Amazon's ability to pull the recalled cards in a reliable manner, I wouldn't even consider getting one from them. If you can't start using it before September, your return period will be long past.

https://www.diyphotography.net/sony-is-recalling-some-of-its-sd-cards-due-to-damaged-and-lost-data/


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 18, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Well that's pants lol. You'd have thought there would be one for the RF lenses. Go figure.


How would you install a adapter for a RF lens? It would change the distance to the sensor plane so you would not be able to focus. I suppose one could be designed with lenses inside to correct for that, but making it work for every current and future RF lens is probably not something you'd want to pat for.


----------



## DBounce (Jun 18, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> Uhhh... we already new July 9 at the latest. Nothing substantive here. Where are the prices?
> 
> There.


Well we certainly didn’t know about September shipping... that part is new... and it sucks.


----------



## koch1948 (Jun 18, 2020)

neurorx said:


> It is a bit disappointing that the R5 will be released after the R6 given most of the press has been around the former. I don't see any pro level RF longer lenses 400, 600 at f2.8 to F4L, etc that would set the stage for an R1 (1D equivalent....I held off hoping we would hear something after the R5, but no new glass). It looks like more waiting....


If you are in the market for the EOS R1, the wait might be within the next two years. In addition, you probably would be looking at purchasing new RF glass. Have you considered the EOS-1D X Mark III? It is a *fantastic* camera that you can purchase today, and you can use your existing EF "L" lenses.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 18, 2020)

Roy Hunte said:


> I highly doubt that will get a black Friday markdown so early


For folks like me, the B&H deal where they rebate sales tax is a good deal. Getting a discount but paying 10% sales tax usually evens out. I doubt that there will be any stock at Christmas, thats been the case before. Those that wait will have to face that possibility.


----------



## Deleted member 378664 (Jun 18, 2020)

What is this difference on the front of the bodies of the R5 and the R6. Is this the input for the remote shutter release that is on the R5 front and misses out on the R6?


As I can't see such input on the front of the R, Rp, where do the R, Rp have their shutter release input? On the side of the body?
I think the front input is fine especially in conjunction with a l-bracket.

Frank


----------



## PureClassA (Jun 18, 2020)

Boy the size of that R6 surprises me. It looks almost identical to the R5! I was thinking it was gonna be notably smaller/closer to the RP in relative size to the R5. That's interesting.


----------



## ohm (Jun 18, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Boy the size of that R6 surprises me. It looks almost identical to the R5! I was thinking it was gonna be notably smaller/closer to the RP in relative size to the R5. That's interesting.


What it is is beautiful. The R nailed size and basic ergonomics. It messed up a few button placements and it lacked important dials. We know the R5 fixes this. If the R6 can keep the same basic placement and shape, it will be a wonderful beastie.


----------



## Antono Refa (Jun 18, 2020)

tomri said:


> They take it in baby steps. I was really disappointed by the AF of the EF 50 1.8 STM compared to STM kit zooms of similar price. So slow and noisy! RnD probably gets requirements from product mgmt not to improve too much over the previous product, even if that is 20yrs old....



I haven't heard of any AF problems with the EF 35mm f/2 IS USM or 85mm f/1.4L IS USM, why would there be any with an EF 50mm f/1.8 IS USM?


----------



## KrisK (Jun 18, 2020)

So the smallest RF lens is turning out to be an adapted EF 40mm f/2.8?


----------



## wockawocka (Jun 18, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> It takes at least 2 years so we don't know the time line of development. Did you think development somehow just started when a camera is announced? They have patents for mirrorless going back 10 years. The announcement lead time is timed by salespeople to keep interest up, while letting factories (which must practice social distancing) and buyers who must scour the markets for components have time to build inventory. The number of R5 cameras needed for initial inventory will far surpass the 1DX Mark III.



It's not a criticism. Just I remember the 1DX being announced in what, December before (I think) June availability. But I was worried I was wrong so I asked.

CR seems to be hella reactive lately what's up guys?


----------



## Deleted member 378664 (Jun 18, 2020)

ohm said:


> What it is is beautiful. The R nailed size and basic ergonomics. It messed up a few button placements and it lacked important dials. We know the R5 fixes this. If the R6 can keep the same basic placement and shape, it will be a wonderful beastie.


The same is valid for me. For a full frame body I like the size and ergonomics of the R5, R6. When I want to go small I do have the EOS M5.


----------



## AEWest (Jun 18, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> I don't see myself preordering the Canon R5 for September when Black Friday is only two months later.


No way that the R5 will be part of a Black Friday sale this year. The R on the other hand...


----------



## PureClassA (Jun 18, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Don't get your hopes up. There won't be any significant Black Friday deals on the R5.


Not without a huge exchange rate shift between now and then, Nope.


----------



## PureClassA (Jun 18, 2020)

canonnews said:


> unless the R5 is a complete bomb, it's very unlikely that it will be going on sale the first black friday.


Not gonna be A bomb. Gonna be THE Bomb.


----------



## esglord (Jun 18, 2020)

tomri said:


> They take it in baby steps. I was really disappointed by the AF of the EF 50 1.8 STM compared to STM kit zooms of similar price. So slow and noisy! RnD probably gets requirements from product mgmt not to improve too much over the previous product, even if that is 20yrs old....


Agreed, my guess is they will aim to just improve autofocus to be fast and quiet. That alone would allow them to get away with charging a couple hundred $ more than the EF, and there would be pricing room in between that and the 1.2L to release an f/1.4L IS USM down the line.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 18, 2020)

Photorex said:


> What is this difference on the front of the bodies of the R5 and the R6. Is this the input for the remote shutter release that is on the R5 front and misses out on the R6?
> View attachment 190865
> 
> As I can't see such input on the front of the R, Rp, where do the R, Rp have their shutter release input? On the side of the body?
> ...


On the R, the remote shutter release is on the side of the body and it uses a different style of connector. Looks like the R5 uses the same configuration as the 5D IV. I'm guessing that the R6 uses the same connector as the R and puts it in the same spot on the side of the body, which would be consistent with the expected lower price of the R6.


----------



## AEWest (Jun 18, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> It will be interesting to see what level of shipping inventory Canon has when they roll out these new bodies and lenses. Given how anemic global camera sales are right now, it seems like they should have lots of spare manufacturing ability. Of course, some of that capacity might not be useful for these new sku's and it's possible that there are still a lot of individual parts that they might have trouble sourcing. It's also posible that they will limit availability for marketing purposes. Nothing drives sales interest like perceived scarcity. It will also be interesting to see how broad and deep the market actually is for a ~$4000 camera. Should be an exciting fall in CanonLand. I'll have to stock up on the popcorn.


I wouldn't be surprised if CPS members get first dibs on the R5, followed by preferred customers at various camera stores and finally a wait list.


----------



## TomR (Jun 18, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> With the Sony recall and Amazon's ability to pull the recalled cards in a reliable manner, I wouldn't even consider getting one from them. If you can't start using it before September, your return period will be long past.
> 
> https://www.diyphotography.net/sony-is-recalling-some-of-its-sd-cards-due-to-damaged-and-lost-data/


 
as far as i can tell the recall does not affect cfexpress cards


----------



## justaCanonuser (Jun 18, 2020)

mrproxy said:


> Is it R6 in the middle? I would put R5 as higher end in middle of lineup.
> Or they are just side by side .


The R6 in the middle is indeed a riddle. Maybe it was placed there to revive all trickling threads about the R bodies with a new detail to discuss? Or the R6 will be THE low-light beast for the new dark side of Canon's tele lens line-up? Questions, questions, and not yet an answer...


----------



## mpb001 (Jun 18, 2020)

trulandphoto said:


> A few observations.
> 
> The R6, with the same form factor as the R5, looks like it might not be all that inexpensive.
> 
> ...


I think that the R6 is probably polycarbonate. Similar build as a 6D. Probably cost $2499. Just my two cents.


----------



## PureClassA (Jun 18, 2020)

unfocused said:


> To me, one of the most interesting things here is the publicity photo showing all five bodies. My conclusion: (1) The R and RP are staying in the lineup. (2) We aren't going to see any additional bodies anytime soon.
> 
> There is a lot of price room between the R and the R5. The R6 is going to come in there somewhere. Maybe $2,300-$2,700?



I'm thinking we are gonna see a concurrent price drop on the R (and maybe a smidge on the RP) with the R5/R6 announcement.

All body only (Stewart's Crystal Ball BS):

RP = stays or drops to $799
R = $1399-1499 
R6 = $1899-2199
R5 = $3499-3899


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jun 18, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if CPS members get first dibs on the R5, followed by preferred customers at various camera stores and finally a wait list.


You may be right. My guess is:_ if you have the cash, Canon will get one to you pretty quick_. As weak as the camera market is, Canon will do everything it can to fill demand. Given how long Canon has had to get ready for this, they should have inventory for the launch. I could be totally wrong of course. That's what makes it fun.


----------



## neurorx (Jun 18, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> If you are in the market for the EOS R1, the wait might be within the next two years. In addition, you probably would be looking at purchasing new RF glass. Have you considered the EOS-1D X Mark III? It is a *fantastic* camera that you can purchase today, and you can use your existing EF "L" lenses.


I was a bit concerned about the 20mp and cropping. How high of ISOs have you been able to get good results. It has really been crossing my mind and just going this route.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jun 18, 2020)

iohansen said:


> That would not be possible for an RF lens as it would increase the register distance.


I'd like your post but I'm not sure what that means lol. I can only assume it is the distance between the sensor, flange and 1st element?? any who, they will either be compatible or they won't. Great if they are, pants if they dont' and a shame.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jun 18, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> How would you install a adapter for a RF lens? It would change the distance to the sensor plane so you would not be able to focus. I suppose one could be designed with lenses inside to correct for that, but making it work for every current and future RF lens is probably not something you'd want to pat for.


I bow to your obviously superior technical knowledge, I just use the camera and don't have a great knowledge of the design or technical details lol. May be a silly question but as the drop in filter adapter adds a further element and is deeper than the normal adapter, would that not have the same issue with EF lenses?


----------



## SteveC (Jun 18, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> I bow to your obviously superior technical knowledge, I just use the camera and don't have a great knowledge of the design or technical details lol. May be a silly question but as the drop in filter adapter adds a further element and is deeper than the normal adapter, would that not have the same issue with EF lenses?



You already need to space the EF lenses from the body for them to work on an RF body. The EF->RF adapter just supplies that space. But now there's space to drop in a filter.

No way to add the space between an RF lens and an RF body, since there's zero distance to play with.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 18, 2020)

TomR said:


> as far as i can tell the recall does not affect cfexpress cards



Sony SD cards even tough ones. CFE and XQD are unaffected and it would be a huge issue for such alien techs to have similar issues.


----------



## tomri (Jun 18, 2020)

Handgrips of R5 and R6 look similar. If we’re lucky they have not given the R6 a smaller battery to compensate (in a negative sense) the hopefully improved battery life that comes from newer silicon. ;-))


----------



## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

tomri said:


> Handgrips of R5 and R6 look similar. If we’re lucky they have not given the R6 a smaller battery to make up for (in a negative sense) the hopefully improved battery life that comes from newer silicon. ;-))


They are using the exact same LP-E6NH battery, it was confirmed earlier.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jun 18, 2020)

canonnews said:


> They are TINY.. compare the 100-500 to the 100-400L and against the super tele's on the EF side.



Agreed. The 600 is shorter than the 100-500! These could also be positioned in Photoshop for viewing and not technically resting on the same plane. If this is a true photo of the products, the rear f/11 telephotos could be on stands/risers so we can see them.


----------



## esglord (Jun 18, 2020)

KrisK said:


> So the smallest RF lens is turning out to be an adapted EF 40mm f/2.8?


I could see them having both f/1.8 and f/1.2L for 35mm/50mm/85mm covered within the next 9 months, and then once everyone has purchased one of those, they'll start putting out f/2 pancakes or f/1.4L's for the same focal lengths in 2022. Just wild speculation on my part though. That's what I'd do if I were them anyway.


----------



## Paul Nordin (Jun 18, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> How would you install a adapter for a RF lens? It would change the distance to the sensor plane so you would not be able to focus. I suppose one could be designed with lenses inside to correct for that, but making it work for every current and future RF lens is probably not something you'd want to pat for.


Thats the same for any lens design...adapters have to have optics that A) properly replicate/account for the Flange Focal Distance of the lens being adapted, and then B) add optics to produce the effect they are being targeted for, and finally C) present a modified image that resolves at the proper focal plane for the sensor. 
I am sure that Canon optics designers are quite capable of building optical adapter for RF lenses to RF Mount bodies. I am not buying into the rumors touted here as fact that the upcoming adapters (RF2x, 1.4x) will only work with a small set of lenses and not the RF 70-200...unless they can point me to an article that is from Canon or a Canon lens designer.


----------



## H. Jones (Jun 18, 2020)

Okay hold on, those supertelephoto primes are really *something.* Seriously? That 600mm is basically the size of an EF 70-200. Like... It's shorter than the 100-500 at 100mm! Canon is seriously doing something here that really hasn't been done all that much before. If these are collapsed and extend to shoot, that is epic and I'm surprised that hasn't been done before, considering how a lot of wildlife photographers are far out in the field. 

Now factor in that these aren't even white lenses, I bet Canon might even pull off a sub-$1000 price tag for the 600mm. I mean heck, even the old 70-200 f/4 non-IS was a white lens, alongside the old 400mm 5.6.

This is all going to be super fascinating to see where it goes.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 18, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Agreed. The 600 is shorter than the 100-500! These could also be positioned in Photoshop for viewing and not technically resting on the same plane. If this is a true photo of the products, the rear f/11 telephotos could be on stands/risers so we can see them.





H. Jones said:


> Okay hold on, those supertelephoto primes are really *something.* Seriously? That 600mm is basically the size of an EF 70-200. Like... It's shorter than the 100-500 at 100mm! Canon is seriously doing something here that really hasn't been done all that much before. If these are collapsed and extend to shoot, that is epic and I'm surprised that hasn't been done before, considering how a lot of wildlife photographers are far out in the field.



Well the 100-500mm isn't a DO lens(which I think have to be primes but don't quote me on that). The 600 f/11 is a DO is is going to be short and would be fat if it had a wider aperture.



H. Jones said:


> Now factor in that these aren't even white lenses, I bet Canon might even pull off a sub-$1000 price tag for the 600mm. I mean heck, even the old 70-200 f/4 non-IS was a white lens, alongside the old 400mm 5.6.



Those two are L series too and very well built compared to the non L of their day. Long and slender, yet metal designs and good optics. I still use the 70-200 f/4 non-IS as it is really light and its IQ has never disappointed(though I only use it at 200mm exclusively).


----------



## goldenhusky (Jun 18, 2020)

Except for the tele lenses all are really exciting products. I am not saying tele lenses are bad but I would like to see how they perform in real world usage.


----------



## Paul Nordin (Jun 18, 2020)

Photorex said:


> What is this difference on the front of the bodies of the R5 and the R6. Is this the input for the remote shutter release that is on the R5 front and misses out on the R6?
> Frank



Maybe its a port for an external heat-sink, required to capture continuous 8k video? LOL


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 18, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> I don't see myself preordering the Canon R5 for September when Black Friday is only two months later.


I would highly doubt a Black Friday discount. I don’t recall one for the RF 28-70 or 85mm.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 18, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> Well, if I could only get one, it would have to be the 85 f/2 macro. I would have said 50 but I already have the 35, I enjoy macro, and with IS on the 50 I don’t expect it will be as cheap as the EF 50 anyway.
> 
> Wonder why the 70-200 f/4 and the 85 f/2 don’t seem to be in the picture? Edit: Never mind - addressed in the article.


Do you like your RF 35mm?


----------



## neurorx (Jun 18, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> It's not a criticism. Just I remember the 1DX being announced in what, December before (I think) June availability. But I was worried I was wrong so I asked.
> 
> CR seems to be hella reactive lately what's up guys?


That is what I am worried about, no camera until 2021....


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 18, 2020)

yestostills said:


> How about a photo centric 5D Mark V? They couldn’t abandon the EF lens series that quickly?


A photo centric 5D Mark V will never happen. I don’t think any kind of 5D Mark V will happen.

I don’t think EF lenses will go away anytime soon if for no other reason than the price points for now. The adapter solution works wonderfully for those who wish to stay with EF.


----------



## sanj (Jun 18, 2020)

Roy Hunte said:


> I highly doubt that will get a black Friday markdown so early


Just may. Depends on where Covid takes us.


----------



## sanj (Jun 18, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> Oh good the R6 doesn't look RP sized.


Oh damn It does not.


----------



## sanj (Jun 18, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Boy the size of that R6 surprises me. It looks almost identical to the R5! I was thinking it was gonna be notably smaller/closer to the RP in relative size to the R5. That's interesting.


Yep. I was hoping for a smaller body. R5 for serious work. R6 for grab and go. So now change in plans. R5 for serious work, RP from 'grab and go'.


----------



## neurorx (Jun 18, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> If you are in the market for the EOS R1, the wait might be within the next two years. In addition, you probably would be looking at purchasing new RF glass. Have you considered the EOS-1D X Mark III? It is a *fantastic* camera that you can purchase today, and you can use your existing EF "L" lenses.


The only two things that have limited me is the 20 mp and really limited seeing samples of action wildlife and sports. I've seen some sports, but not the files to determine the sharpness. I was also curious to know how ISO performance was. It is really a tempting camera, but 6500 is a big investment. I've played with Sony mirrorless and I still am less of a fan of EVF. The a9ii is also tempting....


----------



## sanj (Jun 18, 2020)

Craig: I am glad you posted this photo. Grateful. But if you could get this, why could you not get hi-res? We could zoom and and check better.


----------



## xps (Jun 18, 2020)

goldenhusky said:


> Except for the tele lenses all are really exciting products. I am not saying tele lenses are bad but I would like to see how they perform in real world usage.


You need a lot of light or high Iso. Mostly practicable for "normal" users. The "pros" can switch to their fabulous primes. And I bet, we will see an RF prime>300mm in white colour in the next 2 years.

Maybe, those f11 lenses are good for filming?


----------



## Tom W (Jun 18, 2020)

Looking good so far. I'm not interested in the slow super-telephoto lenses at this time (that can always change, of course), but the R5 is of great interest to me. Really waiting for something that will present an improvement over my very decent Sigma 150-600 lens.


----------



## puffo25 (Jun 18, 2020)

Canon bummer! Much rumors for the R5 and now it seams that R6 will be in the market before then R5. Waiting until August with probably realistic delivery by late October/November make me crazy! :-( And we still do not know much about final price tag nor the full specs.... Just part of them which have been around since early January....


----------



## usern4cr (Jun 18, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> I don't see myself preordering the Canon R5 for September when Black Friday is only two months later.


I'm curious - What discounts do you think there will be on Black Friday? R5/6, RF lenses?


----------



## slclick (Jun 18, 2020)

Whowe said:


> By the way, I like your SWWYH signature. (Start With What You Have)
> 
> It's making me think about whether I really need to upgrade or is it something I just want to do. I love the specs of the R5 so far for photography, but I know I can still do so much more with the 7D mkii that I have. (Actually, I just picked up a second 7Dmkii with low count, one owner for $500 as backup/spare, "insurance policy for breakdown", etc.!) This extra time before shipping will give me a little more time to make sure if I really should upgrade now or not.
> 
> Thanks for the reminder...


Well, it stands for 'Shoot', but I'm glad it resonates with you. It's my Anti-G.A.S. slogan. Also a knee jerk reaction to the throngs acting like they would absolutely DIE if they don't get their hands on an R5 asap. 

Hell, I'd be fine with a T2i if I had to be.


----------



## slclick (Jun 18, 2020)

puffo25 said:


> Canon bummer! Much rumors for the R5 and now it seams that R6 will be in the market before then R5. Waiting until August with probably realistic delivery by late October/November make me crazy! :-( And we still do not know much about final price tag nor the full specs.... Just part of them which have been around since early January....


There's been this thing, maybe you heard of it...PANDEMIC.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 18, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I'm thinking we are gonna see a concurrent price drop on the R (and maybe a smidge on the RP) with the R5/R6 announcement.
> 
> All body only (Stewart's Crystal Ball BS):
> 
> ...


I think your high estimates for the R6 and R5 are probably closer.


----------



## JustUs7 (Jun 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Do you like your RF 35mm?



I’m very happy with it. Honestly it’s my first experience with a prime. It’s all I use in the house anymore for family stuff (birthdays, etc). Also use outdoors for flowers and such. I know it’s not true macro getting shots of bugs eyes and such, but for what I do (flowers) it’s great. It’s a decent size for a walk around as well. Attached a very early practice shot I took.


----------



## esglord (Jun 18, 2020)

unfocused said:


> To me, one of the most interesting things here is the publicity photo showing all five bodies. My conclusion: (1) The R and RP are staying in the lineup. (2) We aren't going to see any additional bodies anytime soon.
> 
> There is a lot of price room between the R and the R5. The R6 is going to come in there somewhere. Maybe $2,300-$2,700?


1) Agree with you 2) but I bet we could see a mark II on the R to address shortcomings and get that price back up


----------



## jam05 (Jun 18, 2020)

Already sold the 5dmk3 and a few EF lenses. "Let's get this party started"


----------



## arbitrage (Jun 18, 2020)

xps said:


> You need a lot of light or high Iso. Mostly practicable for "normal" users. The "pros" can switch to their fabulous primes. And I bet, we will see an RF prime>300mm in white colour in the next 2 years.
> 
> Maybe, those f11 lenses are good for filming?


Serious long-lens film makers would be buying one of these....go big or go home 
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...8c001_cine_servo_50_1000mm_t5_0_8_9_with.html


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 18, 2020)

arbitrage said:


> Serious long-lens film makers would be buying one of these....go big or go home
> https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...8c001_cine_servo_50_1000mm_t5_0_8_9_with.html
> View attachment 190869


No they are just for Super 35 sized sensors so you'd lose the FF video capability of anything you pout it on. For many years the Canon FD 150-600 f5.6 converted to PL mount was a highly sought after wildlife video lens. Indeed there was at least one company, Optex, that motorized the thing!


----------



## gmail (Jun 18, 2020)

I have been hoping that an RF mount cinema camera will be also announced. I have been investing into RF lenses for 2 year now. Is RF mount is for professionals or for prosumer market only? Canon, please just give us a C250-RF camera with built-in ND filters. EOR-R5 is just a stop gap to what most of DSLR shooters, if serious, would really want.


----------



## Danglin52 (Jun 18, 2020)

arbitrage said:


> If we believe the patent, the length of the 600 f/11 should be around 320mm to the mount. In this image it is slightly shorter than the 100-500. The 100-500 was seen next to the 100-400II at the photo show. It looked maybe 5-10mm longer than the 100-400 putting it around 200-210mm. So these must be extendable unless Canon used a totally different patent design. This fits with this new design of the two lenses.



How does the DO lens configuration affect length of the lens? If you look at the 400 f2.8 vs 400 f4 DO II, the standard 400mm is almost 4" longer than the DO version. 
EF 400mm f4 D0 IS II. 5.04 x 9.16" / 128 x 232.7 mm 
EF 400mm f2.8 L IS III 6.42 x 13.5" / 163 x 343 mm.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jun 18, 2020)

arbitrage said:


> Serious long-lens film makers would be buying one of these....go big or go home
> https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...8c001_cine_servo_50_1000mm_t5_0_8_9_with.html


At full extension with the extender engaged the 50-1000 (1500mm) is also around f11. Unless you are filming at very high framerates, which the Canon CineCam's don't have, F11 is not as limiting for video. IMO that has to be the ultimate wildlife lens. Amazing.


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## WriteLight (Jun 18, 2020)

xps said:


> You need a lot of light or high Iso. Mostly practicable for "normal" users. The "pros" can switch to their fabulous primes. And I bet, we will see an RF prime>300mm in white colour in the next 2 years.
> 
> Maybe, those f11 lenses are good for filming?


I'm hoping it means the DR for the new sensor is good enough that they fell these can be more practical lenses.


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## TracerHD (Jun 18, 2020)

So there is just 1 question left: will the R5 EVF be blackout-free?


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## BakaBokeh (Jun 18, 2020)

I have 2 questions for video.

1) How much will dynamic range be improved? 
2) Will rolling shutter be improved?

Canon not being as good at DR as other manufacturer's was never a deal breaker, but it'd be nice to see some improvements. I mean I'm used to it... skies are blown out, shaded areas are crushed. Who cares as long as the subject is exposed properly. I'd be welcome to some improvements though. Same with rolling shutter. Never bothered me much, but improvements would be nice.

The fact that the new processor and sensor are being touted, I'm kind of expecting some improvements, but tempering those expectations since historically those were never Canon priorities. Everything else, I'm confident they will implement really well. Like I have really high hopes for the IBIS. And the possibility of IBIS/Lens IS/EIS combo being really smooth.


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## sanj (Jun 18, 2020)

xps said:


> You need a lot of light or high Iso. Mostly practicable for "normal" users. The "pros" can switch to their fabulous primes. And I bet, we will see an RF prime>300mm in white colour in the next 2 years.
> 
> Maybe, those f11 lenses are good for filming?


That focul length is very rarely used for filming


TracerHD said:


> So there is just 1 question left: will the R5 EVF be blackout-free?


R1


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## Joules (Jun 18, 2020)

TracerHD said:


> So there is just 1 question left: will the R5 EVF be blackout-free?


I can't think of a reason why the 1DX III would perform better in LiveView than the R5 in the EVF. And the 1DX III LiveView is blackout-free. Jared Polin has a nice comparison to the A9.


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## The3o5FlyGuy (Jun 18, 2020)

The R6 below 2.5k? I’m getting dizzy.


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## dwarven (Jun 18, 2020)

The 600mm and 800mm lenses are going bring supertelephotos to the masses. It's a brilliant move on Canon's part, since smartphones have replaced the normal focal length lenses for a lot of non-photographers. And smartphones will never be able to replicate images shot at these focal lengths due to physical limitations. These lenses could get more regular people into dedicated cameras agan. 

I don't have $8k+ to spend on a big white, but I love photographing birds, so I'll be picking up the 800mm for sure. And I think 3200/6400 ISO will not be a problem for the R6/R5 if anyone is worried about shooting at f11. Hell, my a6100 can get usable images at 3200 ISO. I'm so glad I decided to go Canon instead of Sony when I was planning my full frame upgrade a year ago.


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## Traveler (Jun 18, 2020)

Christoph Müller said:


> For me, there is one lens currently missing in the RF lens line up. And that is a EF 100mm F2.8L IS Macro lens equivalent. A lot of times it was part of some rumored future lens list, but the Canon RF 85mm f/2 Macro IS STM seams also not to be this equivalent because it is no Pro L lens.
> 
> But why would Canon come out with a second amateur macro lens after the RF 35mm Macro, if it has no pro macro lenses in its RF lineup?


You can easily use the 100mm with an adaptor. I’m glad that canon keeps releasing completely new designs or the most used lenses.


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## AJ (Jun 18, 2020)

So the 600 mm and the 800 mm with the 2x TC will be f/22. That'll be interesting...


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

gmail said:


> I have been hoping that an RF mount cinema camera will be also announced. I have been investing into RF lenses for 2 year now. Is RF mount is for professionals or for prosumer market only? Canon, please just give us a C250-RF camera with built-in ND filters. EOR-R5 is just a stop gap to what most of DSLR shooters, if serious, would really want.


They want to keep selling the C300 Mark III
Their first RF video-oriented camera is predicted to be something different, more like the XC form factor with a s35mm sensor, but relying on the RF-EF adapters to get a variable ND.
The full-on cinema cameras will come later on.


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## padam (Jun 18, 2020)

AJ said:


> So the 600 mm and the 800 mm with the 2x TC will be f/22. That'll be interesting...


At those very extreme focal lengths, you might as well focus manually, and have rock-steady support as well as clean air...
After a certain point you are better of with an EF 600mm f/4 and teleconverters (either new or used).
But you have those options, no one is forcing you to buy f/11 DO lenses.


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## unfocused (Jun 19, 2020)

dwarven said:


> ...I don't have $8k+ to spend on a big white, but I love photographing birds, so I'll be picking up the 800mm for sure. And I think 3200/6400 ISO will not be a problem for the R6/R5 if anyone is worried about shooting at f11. Hell, my a6100 can get usable images at 3200 ISO.,,



F11 at ISO 6400 will still require extremely good light to shoot birds. Shore birds will likely be fine. But it will be difficult to get to f11 and 6400 with a songbird in a tree. I'm not trashing the 800mm, just suggesting that people need to realistic about its limitations. The two extra stops of the 100-400 with cropping might yield better results.


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## dwarven (Jun 19, 2020)

unfocused said:


> F11 at ISO 6400 will still require extremely good light to shoot birds. Shore birds will likely be fine. But it will be difficult to get to f11 and 6400 with a songbird in a tree. I'm not trashing the 800mm, just suggesting that people need to realistic about its limitations. The two extra stops of the 100-400 with cropping might yield better results.



You can easily shoot at f/11 all the way until golden hour at ISOs lower than 6400, especially in the summer. Getting birds in flight will definitely be more limited at that hour, but still doable. This lens is not nearly as crippled at a lot of people here are saying. I’ll make sure to send you some photos when I get it.


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## BakaBokeh (Jun 19, 2020)

I don't plan on buying the DO telephoto primes, but am curious about how they perform. I take the view that I need to see them in action with real world use before I write them off because of a number. I mean lens to lens, just because it is classified scientifically by it's light gathering ability, doesn't mean all are equal. There are dirt cheap huge aperture lenses out there that have horrible IQ. So much more involved in lens design than aperture alone. It's like IBIS. People talk like it's a binary option. Have it? Good. Don't have it? Bad. That's not entirely true as from what I've seen, there are levels of IBIS quality. Panasonic & Olympus looks best. Fuji and Nikon in the middle. Sony's garbage looking like it's not even there sometimes. (Speaking from a video perspective).

Also, Canon has earned some equity with us as a great imaging company. I doubt they'd make a stupid lens to troll their customers. It's a little like the outrage at the EOS R when first released, but when people started using it, it was actually an excellent camera. So if it were a focal length I was interested in, I'd owe it to them to try before writing it off.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 19, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> It appears the TCs are RF-RF, which suggests they are laying the foundation for an RF big white. I’d predict a RF300 f2.8.


How can you tell? I haven't seen any confirmation that the TCs are RF-RF. It makes a lot of sense them to be RF-EF to avoid stacked adaptors for RF-EF plus EF TC 1.4 or 2x to use current EF big whites.
If the new TCs are RF-RF then it is somewhat confusing for the aperture for the new RF "big silver" (I claim copyright for this one!) lenses
A previous thread outlines the valid use cases for 600/800 f11 new lens but it is less convincing when combined with the TCs if they are RF-RF
Canon RF 100-500mm f/4-7.1L IS USM -> 700mm @f10 (1.4x) and 1000mm @ ~f14 (2x)
Canon RF 600mm f/11 DO IS STM -> 840mm @f16 (1.4x) and 1200mm @ f22 (2x)
Canon RF 800mm f/11 DO IS STM -> 1120mm @f16 (1.4x) and 1600mm @ f22 (2x)
I imagine that Canon would prefer people buy all three lenses rather than use any of them with TCs. It isn't clear if AF would work wide-open @f22! 
A RF300mm f2..8 (DO?) makes sense to release but it is likely to be released in line with the olympics next year. Wouldn't it make more sense to release the RF:RF TCs with it?


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## David - Sydney (Jun 19, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if CPS members get first dibs on the R5, followed by preferred customers at various camera stores and finally a wait list.


Canon ambassadors first


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## David - Sydney (Jun 19, 2020)

lglass12189 said:


> I assume you mean Canon Explorers of Light, Canon has no "Ambassadors"


Perhaps you need to expand your knowledge somewhat. Yes Canon US has their explorers of light list but there are ambassadors, explorers and masters in Europe (see https://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/ambassadors.do). Malaysia has their ambassadors (https://my.canon/en/consumer/eos-ambassadors/news), Australia has their ambassadors (https://www.canon.com.au/collective/collective-ambassadors) and probably other countries as well.


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## BeenThere (Jun 19, 2020)

arbitrage said:


> I like the look of the 600/800. Looks like they will be extendable to go to shooting positions as they look a lot shorter than the patents compared to the 100-500. Looks like that top dark (rubberized) section will extend from the silver section.


Could it be a mirror lens with fixed f11 to get to the compact size?


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## Eclipsed (Jun 19, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> How can you tell? I haven't seen any confirmation that the TCs are RF-RF. It makes a lot of sense them to be RF-EF to avoid stacked adaptors for RF-EF plus EF TC 1.4 or 2x to use current EF big whites.
> If the new TCs are RF-RF then it is somewhat confusing for the aperture for the new RF "big silver" (I claim copyright for this one!) lenses
> A previous thread outlines the valid use cases for 600/800 f11 new lens but it is less convincing when combined with the TCs if they are RF-RF
> Canon RF 100-500mm f/4-7.1L IS USM -> 700mm @f10 (1.4x) and 1000mm @ ~f14 (2x)
> ...



I presume that a EF-RF TC would be about as long as a normal TC plus the EF-RF adapter. The depicted ones appear normal
Length.


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## SteveC (Jun 19, 2020)

Traveler said:


> You can easily use the 100mm with an adaptor. I’m glad that canon keeps releasing completely new designs or the most used lenses.



I'm assuming you mean "keeps releasing completely new designs rather than redesigning the most used lenses."

Yes that's not a bad strategy. What I think will happen over the next 5--10 years is that they never release a new version of an EF lens, but rather an RF of very similar specs. Eventually the most current lens of any given focal length and aperture is an RF lens. Meanwhile, right now they can release a bunch of totally different stuff (like f/11 long primes), filling holes many people didn't even realize existed.


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## SteveC (Jun 19, 2020)

R5 is preordered.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 19, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> I presume that a EF-RF TC would be about as long as a normal TC plus the EF-RF adapter. The depicted ones appear normal
> Length.


Normal when it comes to RF mount would be unusual! Given the RF designs are pushing the rear element towards the sensor meaning less/no space for an adapter eg the RF70-200mm. We are assuming that the RF 100-500mm will accept RF:RF TCs but this is not obvious when the "big silver" lens 600/800mm f11 fit the focal lengths but with big size advantages. RF100-500mm + 1.4TC is 700mm @f10 and with 2x is [email protected] is not so different from the 3 lenses being released and Canon want us to buy more lenses 

I agree that the new TC length appears to be the same as existing ones but that doesn't mean that this model would be the same optical design as RF-EF adaptor + EF:EF TC that would just add the empty space. A new design would (hopefully) include better optics than the current vIII models
What I can't find it a cut-through profile of the current TCs ie showing where the elements are in relation to the physical body. Is this available somewhere?


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## sanj (Jun 19, 2020)

dwarven said:


> You can easily shoot at f/11 all the way until golden hour at ISOs lower than 6400, especially in the summer. Getting birds in flight will definitely be more limited at that hour, but still doable. This lens is not nearly as crippled at a lot of people here are saying. I’ll make sure to send you some photos when I get it.


Why do I feel you have not done enough bird photography? Light is low in the foliage where birds are unless as mentioned you are photographing shorebirds. AND bad light (top light) is bad light.


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## sanj (Jun 19, 2020)

unfocused said:


> F11 at ISO 6400 will still require extremely good light to shoot birds. Shore birds will likely be fine. But it will be difficult to get to f11 and 6400 with a songbird in a tree. I'm not trashing the 800mm, just suggesting that people need to realistic about its limitations. The two extra stops of the 100-400 with cropping might yield better results.


Yes.


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## AEWest (Jun 19, 2020)

So if the R5 and R6 are announced on July 9th, when will Youtubers have access to these cameras for evaluation? Before the announcement or after that and before public introduction?


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## cdcooker (Jun 19, 2020)

I thought all DO lenses have a green ring. It is clearly missing on these two super tele lenses. Also, what's the purpose of the weird shape in the front of the lens barrel?


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## Danglin52 (Jun 19, 2020)

AEWest said:


> So if the R5 and R6 are announced on July 9th, when will Youtubers have access to these cameras for evaluation? Before the announcement or after that and before public introduction?


Not sure of the answer, but I am hoping they will at least have videos from pros that have been testing the cameras. I know these will be marketing driven, but should provide some insight to the good news.


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## privatebydesign (Jun 19, 2020)

cdcooker said:


> I thought all DO lenses have a green ring. It is clearly missing on these two super tele lenses. Also, what's the purpose of the weird shape in the front of the lens barrel?


Canon break their own ‘rules’ whenever they want. The first green ring was back in the early ‘70’s and was for fluorite, red ringed L lenses are FF frame only apart from when they are on a Powershot Pro-1 or a printer!


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## Danglin52 (Jun 19, 2020)

sanj said:


> Why do I feel you have not done enough bird photography? Light is low in the foliage where birds are unless as mentioned you are photographing shorebirds. AND bad light (top light) is bad light.


I agree, the lens should be beneficial if you shoot a lot of waterfowl in flight or relatively open waters.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 19, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Canon break their own ‘rules’ whenever they want. The first green ring was back in the early ‘70’s and was for fluorite, red ringed L lenses are FF frame only apart from when they are on a Powershot Pro-1 or a printer!


And white after an arbitrary focal length. 100mm f2.8L macro and 135mm f2 are black but 70-200 is white and now we have big silver (or big grey?) lens


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## Joules (Jun 19, 2020)

cdcooker said:


> I thought all DO lenses have a green ring. It is clearly missing on these two super tele lenses. Also, what's the purpose of the weird shape in the front of the lens barrel?


Even if Canon currently associates green with DO, these lenses are very different to the previous DO ones. They are also STM and they are freaking f/11. And RF, so a new system anyway. Seems like they love some silver accents now, the cameras and lens mount have them too. Either green is going away completely (I think they chose about the worst hue of green anyway) or they want to set these lenses apart, since they have little in common with the other DOs.


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## Joules (Jun 19, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> If the new TCs are RF-RF then it is somewhat confusing for the aperture for the new RF * "big silver"* (I claim copyright for this one!) lenses


How about Big Black Canon?  

(sorry)


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## privatebydesign (Jun 19, 2020)

Joules said:


> Even if Canon currently associates green with DO, these lenses are very different to the previous DO ones. They are also STM and they are freaking f/11. And RF, so a new system anyway. Seems like they love some silver accents now, the cameras and lens mount have them too. Either green is going away completely (I think they chose about the worst hue of green anyway) or they want to set these lenses apart, since they have little in common with the other DOs.


It seems to me the EF 70-300mm f4.5-5.6 DO IS wasn’t that far removed from these new f11 STM lenses and that had the green ring. Although it was a truly forgettable lens with terrible bokeh issues low contrast and a high price.


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## Joules (Jun 19, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> It seems to me the EF 70-300mm f4.5-5.6 DO IS wasn’t that far removed from these new f11 STM lenses and that had the green ring. Although it was a truly forgettable lens with terrible bokeh issues low contrast and a high price.


Hm, right. It also has a silver stripe.

I think with Canon's RF marketing, once something gets an STM AF and a slow aperture, it lands in a separate lens category. My current impression is that RF crop and corresponding lenses will not come, and instead this set of lower cost FF lenses is meant to satisfy the customers that can afford to go beyond the level of an M6 II / 90D and stay below the L lens level.

Plenty of EF-S lenses have a silver ring as well, so that also fits this. It's just speculation at this point of course.

Or maybe DO just isn't as significant to their marketing strategy anymore, so it doesn't need an extra ring to set it apart. That could also allow then to slap that beloved red ring on any future L DOs they produce. 

I could see the appeal of these clean Canon systems though. RF is FF with lenses ranging from reasonable compact to huge and EF-M is APS-C with lenses... That all have the exact same diameter. Still think that's not a necessity, but it is a fun quirk.


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## dwarven (Jun 19, 2020)

sanj said:


> Why do I feel you have not done enough bird photography? Light is low in the foliage where birds are unless as mentioned you are photographing shorebirds. AND bad light (top light) is bad light.



I typically don't photograph birds in foliage, and I've only been shooting for a little over a year, but I'm pretty okay at math. This shot was taken at f/6.3, 1/400, 1600 ISO. I can get the same exposure by closing the aperture to f/11, leaving the shutter speed the same, and bumping the ISO to ~5000. This was taken around 4pm with not great lighting. There was a clearing nearby with close to perfect lighting and I could have used nearly whatever ISO I wanted. No, the 800mm isn't going to let you take the same shots as a 600mm f/4, but it will probably be half the weight or less and cost 1/10th as much. It sounds like this lens isn't for you? I don't know what to tell you. Go practice at f/11 I guess if it bothers you that much.


----------



## Traveler (Jun 19, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I'm assuming you mean "keeps releasing completely new designs rather than redesigning the most used lenses."


My poor English 
I meant that they’ve been doing both. They’ve released only the most used lenses for professionals (holy trinity, 85 f/1.2, 50/1.2 and 24-105) which makes sense – we want the most used lenses to be native. 
But they’ve been also releasing completely new designs instead of producing those “middle-used” lenses such as macro, fish eyes, f/4’s etc. We can use those with adapters and canon can focus on something more interesting to attract new people or to give us something new. 
I don’t even think that the fast long lenses should be a priority now. They’re long and expensive anyway so the adaptor doesn’t make a significant difference in terms of size or price.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jun 19, 2020)

Traveler said:


> My poor English
> I meant that they’ve been doing both. They’ve released only the most used lenses for professionals (holy trinity, 85 f/1.2, 50/1.2 and 24-105) which makes sense – we want the most used lenses to be native.
> But they’ve been also releasing completely new designs instead of producing those “middle-used” lenses such as macro, fish eyes, f/4’s etc. We can use those with adapters and canon can focus on something more interesting to attract new people or to give us something new.
> I don’t even think that the fast long lenses should be a priority now. They’re long and expensive anyway so the adaptor doesn’t make a significant difference in terms of size or price.



I totally agree. I don't see much advantage making a 11-24 or 8-15 in RF version. Of course they would be a bit smaller but i would probably buy the EF versions anyway and use them with the drop-in filter adapter.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 19, 2020)

cdcooker said:


> I thought all DO lenses have a green ring. It is clearly missing on these two super tele lenses. Also, what's the purpose of the weird shape in the front of the lens barrel?



I think DO will get red rings now and we'll see the new 500 f/4 and 600 f/4 as DO L lenses with red rings. It will push the marking that mirrorless is smaller and lighter than those big EF lenses.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 19, 2020)

Joules said:


> Hm, right. It also has a silver stripe.
> 
> 
> Or maybe DO just isn't as significant to their marketing strategy anymore, so it doesn't need an extra ring to set it apart. That could also allow then to slap that beloved red ring on any future L DOs they produce.



The prototype 600 DO had a red ring already.


----------



## Eclipsed (Jun 19, 2020)

Traveler said:


> I don’t even think that the fast long lenses should be a priority now. They’re long and expensive anyway so the adaptor doesn’t make a significant difference in terms of size or price.



Speaking only for myself, I’m not spending $5000-10,000 on a new lens in order to hang it on a mismatched tube with a second mount interface to wobble. If I need a big long lens I’ll buy an inexpensive resellable used one. No revenue for Canon for me in the category until they have native big whites.

All it takes is a longer rear housing and no change to any of the other mechanical, optical, and electronic components.

Of course that rear housing will presumably include a control ring and the matching RF silver element like the RF70-200.


----------



## edoorn (Jun 19, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> Speaking only for myself, I’m not spending $5000-10,000 on a new lens in order to hang it on a mismatched tube with a second mount interface to wobble. If I need a big long lens I’ll buy an inexpensive resellable used one. No revenue for Canon for me in the category until they have native big whites.
> 
> All it takes is a longer rear housing and no change to any of the other mechanical, optical, and electronic components.
> 
> Of course that rear housing will presumably include a control ring and the matching RF silver element like the RF70-200.



i didn’t find it a very big deal; in this case a 500 ii on an R. With extender even. That said, if I’d get a new big white now it would have to be RF


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jun 19, 2020)

dwarven said:


> I typically don't photograph birds in foliage, and I've only been shooting for a little over a year, but I'm pretty okay at math. This shot was taken at f/6.3, 1/400, 1600 ISO. I can get the same exposure by closing the aperture to f/11, leaving the shutter speed the same, and bumping the ISO to ~5000. This was taken around 4pm with not great lighting. There was a clearing nearby with close to perfect lighting and I could have used nearly whatever ISO I wanted. No, the 800mm isn't going to let you take the same shots as a 600mm f/4, but it will probably be half the weight or less and cost 1/10th as much. It sounds like this lens isn't for you? I don't know what to tell you. Go practice at f/11 I guess if it bothers you that much.
> 
> 
> View attachment 190892



This shot probably would have been ok at 1/200 with IS on.


----------



## dwarven (Jun 19, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> This shot probably would have been ok at 1/200 with IS on.



possibly, but I’ve learned the hard way that I’d rather have more noise than a blurry picture, so I usually shoot at higher ISOs these days.


----------



## usern4cr (Jun 19, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> I think DO will get red rings now and we'll see the new 500 f/4 and 600 f/4 as DO L lenses with red rings. It will push the marking that mirrorless is smaller and lighter than those big EF lenses.


The allure of the big whites has been their long telephoto sharp-focused subject with extremely big & smooth bokeh in the compressed out-of-focus background that they can best produce. The weakness of previous DO lenses (IMHO) is the radially oscillating bokeh rings caused by the discrete edges from each radial ring to the next in the lighthouse-like DO lens. But if Canon can get their micro-surface-DO lenses (or whatever they call it) to have so many tiny radial rings that the radial bokeh oscillations start to become unnoticeable and thus appear smooth then they could indeed successfully merge DO optics with their big whites. That result would be astounding in allowing huge aperture lenses with shorter lengths and greatly reduced weight!  Even better - the same technology could be used on all lenses, big & small to the same benefit!  But, as with all things that revolutionary, we'll have to see it to believe it.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jun 19, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> The allure of the big whites has been their long telephoto sharp-focused subject with extremely big & smooth bokeh in the compressed out-of-focus background that they can best produce. The weakness of previous DO lenses (IMHO) is the radially oscillating bokeh rings caused by the discrete edges from each radial ring to the next in the lighthouse-like DO lens. But if Canon can get their micro-surface-DO lenses (or whatever they call it) to have so many tiny radial rings that the radial bokeh oscillations start to become unnoticeable and thus appear smooth then they could indeed successfully merge DO optics with their big whites. That result would be astounding in allowing huge aperture lenses with shorter lengths and greatly reduced weight!  Even better - the same technology could be used on all lenses, big & small to the same benefit!  But, as with all things that revolutionary, we'll have to see it to believe it.



The 400 DO version 2 is very-very sharp from what ive seen and bokeh looks smooth. I'm curious how it compares to the 400 2.8 at F4.


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## usern4cr (Jun 19, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The 400 DO version 2 is very-very sharp from what ive seen and bokeh looks smooth. I'm curious how it compares to the 400 2.8 at F4.


Thanks for your reply - since I haven't been using EF lenses I wasn't aware of that. If they already have the DO technology worked out with sharp images and smooth bokeh then I wonder why they're not using it in all of their new lenses?  Could it be that these two RF DO (non-L) lenses are the beginning of a trend towards DO in everything? Or is there some issue still in the IQ or cost that we're missing that keeps them from being in the RF L versions?


----------



## Eclipsed (Jun 19, 2020)

edoorn said:


> i didn’t find it a very big deal; in this case a 500 ii on an R. With extender even. That said, if I’d get a new big white now it would have to be RF



exactly my point. Adapters are fine to employ what you already have but buying a new $10k lens and putting it on adapter is a major cringe, knowing that in a couple years there will be a native.


----------



## JustUs7 (Jun 19, 2020)

Question. For auditorium events / lighting. 

I have the RF 24-240 f/4-6.3. 
Is a constant f/4 (on the new 70-200) enough of a benefit at the long end to justify adding it? Losing 40 mm and only gaining 1.3 stops at 200mm. 

Or keep saving for the 2.8 and enjoy the current lens.


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## Joe Subolefsky (Jun 19, 2020)

The new 400 & 600III already have the 2 extra communication contacts as the RF system. In one of interviews with the engineers they already said it was to future proof the lens. By loosening and tightening a handful of screws service centers could easily replace the EF end cap with a RF end cap they already have the finest optics and IS. That said they already work flawlessly with the R using the supplied adapter with and without extenders.Personally I would love to see ef to rf extenders just to cur down on gear to pack.


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## Steve Balcombe (Jun 19, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> How can you tell? I haven't seen any confirmation that the TCs are RF-RF.


You keep saying this, but they were pre-announced by Canon, and they are on various Canon web sites, with pictures. They are RF Extenders, not adapters. Easy to find with just the minimum of effort.


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 19, 2020)

Steve Balcombe said:


> You keep saying this, but they were pre-announced by Canon, and they are on various Canon web sites, with pictures. They are RF Extenders, not adapters. Easy to find with just the minimum of effort.



And if you want RF-EF extenders, just stick the adapter on top of it, done!


----------



## RobbieHat (Jun 19, 2020)

Going to be an expensive year. I am hoping for the R5 plus a few native lenses for landscape and future wildlife. 

Looking to swap my EFs for the 24-105 f4, 70-200 f4 and maybe 100-500. Could use the extenders on that in a pinch for a decent walking around wildlife lens in good light. Will have to adapt the long glass until the native primes are released (assuming two more years for those). 

Also hoping for a wider fast zoom (was really hoping for 12,13 or at least 14 on the wide side) at f2.8 and a wide, fast prime like the sigma 14 or 21 for astrophotography. 

I am about ready to sell off most of my EF glass and two bodies and go with a lighter kit. Also looking forward to that MP monster next year.


----------



## RobbieHat (Jun 19, 2020)

Joe Subolefsky said:


> The new 400 & 600III already have the 2 extra communication contacts as the RF system. In one of interviews with the engineers they already said it was to future proof the lens. By loosening and tightening a handful of screws service centers could easily replace the EF end cap with a RF end cap they already have the finest optics and IS. That said they already work flawlessly with the R using the supplied adapter with and without extenders.Personally I would love to see ef to rf extenders just to cur down on gear to pack.


I wasn’t aware that they might be able to swap out the end plate on those vIIIs for RF active communications. That’s pretty cool. Might have to upgrade my vII 600 f4 if that proves to be the easiest approach. That would make the RF to RF extenders usable with no additional adapter. That would be worth it.


----------



## cdcooker (Jun 19, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> I think DO will get red rings now and we'll see the new 500 f/4 and 600 f/4 as DO L lenses with red rings. It will push the marking that mirrorless is smaller and lighter than those big EF lenses.



The EF 400mm f/4 DO IS II USM is not that old.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 19, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> And white after an arbitrary focal length. 100mm f2.8L macro and 135mm f2 are black but 70-200 is white and now we have big silver (or big grey?) lens


200 mm f2.8 is black as well.


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## cdcooker (Jun 19, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Canon break their own ‘rules’ whenever they want. The first green ring was back in the early ‘70’s and was for fluorite, red ringed L lenses are FF frame only apart from when they are on a Powershot Pro-1 or a printer!
> 
> View attachment 190891


Thanks for the photos. The hunch of Powershot Pro 1 is seriously looking like the EOS RP.


----------



## esglord (Jun 19, 2020)

Does anyone happen to know if the 85mm macro will be 1:1? I have been weighing picking up a used ef 100mm f/2.8L, but a native non-L may well be good enough for my needs.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 19, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The prototype 600 DO had a red ring already.
> 
> View attachment 190893


No that is an EF 600 f4L IS DO BR USM prototype, no relation to the RF 600 f11 DO.


----------



## David_E (Jun 19, 2020)

TheSalvatore said:


> _Sigh... Shipping only in September..._


“All things come to those who wait.” —Violet Fane


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jun 19, 2020)

dwarven said:


> I typically don't photograph birds in foliage, and I've only been shooting for a little over a year, but I'm pretty okay at math. This shot was taken at f/6.3, 1/400, 1600 ISO. I can get the same exposure by closing the aperture to f/11, leaving the shutter speed the same, and bumping the ISO to ~5000. This was taken around 4pm with not great lighting. There was a clearing nearby with close to perfect lighting and I could have used nearly whatever ISO I wanted. No, the 800mm isn't going to let you take the same shots as a 600mm f/4, but it will probably be half the weight or less and cost 1/10th as much. It sounds like this lens isn't for you? I don't know what to tell you. Go practice at f/11 I guess if it bothers you that much.
> 
> 
> View attachment 190892


It is extremely disappointing when a once in a lifetime sequence of shots ends up at ISO 12800 and some cropping is required. In the moment you need a fast shutter so the ISO goes through the roof and then another moment the shot is still and you lower the shutter only to have blur on the next shot. You waste time trying to tweak them but in the end it's heartbreaking that you can't proudly display quality shots. This was F8 and 800 mm and that was not enough FL to avoid cropping. And if the shots are too tight you can't follow the action. Never the less, that's life. Happy and disappointed in the very same moment.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jun 19, 2020)

cdcooker said:


> The EF 400mm f/4 DO IS II USM is not that old.
> View attachment 190899



Thats a EF though. I think Canon will make all the big primes DO and red rings. The red ring is very distinctively Canon and as crazy as it sounds, the green ring of the EF 400mm f/4 DO IS II USM makes it look like a lower end model. Of course we don't know how many people buy a lens on looks, but we know marketing isn't decoupled from selling lenses.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 19, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Could it be a mirror lens with fixed f11 to get to the compact size?



If it were a catadioptric mirror lens + DO optics, it would be much shorter than it appears to be in the picture (and probably wider to accommodate enough light coming in with a central, shadowed area). Would be super cool, and probably a bit more delicate than your average lens. So much so, this might be the reason they've never done it. Might have to be collimated ("telescope" for aligned) regularly. The short flange distance and gaping maw of the R system would really lend itself to this sort of thing.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 19, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The 400 DO version 2 is very-very sharp from what ive seen and bokeh looks smooth. I'm curious how it compares to the 400 2.8 at F4.



You can see a comparison here:



https://www.the-digital-picture.com...meraComp=979&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0
https://www.the-digital-picture.com...meraComp=979&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0

It shows that the f/2.8 lens is sharper and has better contrast at f/4. But the F/4 DO lens is pretty darned good. I've shot both.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jun 19, 2020)

Joe Subolefsky said:


> The new 400 & 600III already have the 2 extra communication contacts as the RF system. In one of interviews with the engineers they already said it was to future proof the lens. By loosening and tightening a handful of screws service centers could easily replace the EF end cap with a RF end cap they already have the finest optics and IS. That said they already work flawlessly with the R using the supplied adapter with and without extenders.Personally I would love to see ef to rf extenders just to cur down on gear to pack.



They could very easily create 2 versions for every super telephoto, EF and RF versions, 90% of the lens would be the same.


----------



## Trey T (Jun 19, 2020)

cerealito said:


> The R6 also seems to have a big mode dial, so probably no top lcd screen?


Supposedly, it was rumored to have a dial located at the top but nobody explicitly say it no top LCD. We made the assumption until today


----------



## Act444 (Jun 19, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> Question. For auditorium events / lighting.
> 
> I have the RF 24-240 f/4-6.3.
> Is a constant f/4 (on the new 70-200) enough of a benefit at the long end to justify adding it? Losing 40 mm and only gaining 1.3 stops at 200mm.
> ...



From my personal experience, I was in a similar boat 10 years ago and got the f4 version. To make a long story short, I ended up trading up to the 2.8 as soon as I could afford to do so.

It is my experience that the difference between f4 and f2.8 in moderate to dim lighting can be very noticeable, and even substantial in some cases. Say at f6.3 you’re at ISO 12,800. F4 is 1.3 stop difference = ISO 5,000. F2.8 is another stop = ISO 2,500. Considering that IQ on many camera sensors deteriorates considerably past 3200, this could affect print size, cropping power, etc. The 2.8 lens would allow for a much better shot than either the f4 or 6.3. But in good light you’ll see far less of a difference...

I suppose final results will ultimately depend on the camera body you’re shooting with.


----------



## AJ (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> At those very extreme focal lengths, you might as well focus manually, and have rock-steady support as well as clean air...
> After a certain point you are better of with an EF 600mm f/4 and teleconverters (either new or used).
> But you have those options, no one is forcing you to buy f/11 DO lenses.


That's true, but the R-mount TC takes R-mount lenses, and there are currently very few R-mount telephoto lenses. I'm wondering about the use of those TCs. Maybe there'll be more coming in the future, like 300/2.8 or 600/4.


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 19, 2020)

AJ said:


> That's true, but the R-mount TC takes R-mount lenses, and there are currently very few R-mount telephoto lenses. I'm wondering about the use of those TCs. Maybe there'll be more coming in the future, like 300/2.8 or 600/4.



So put the EF-RF adapter between the EF lens and RF TC.


----------



## padam (Jun 19, 2020)

AJ said:


> That's true, but the R-mount TC takes R-mount lenses, and there are currently very few R-mount telephoto lenses. I'm wondering about the use of those TCs. Maybe there'll be more coming in the future, like 300/2.8 or 600/4.


That's a definite yes.
There is also the latest EF 400mm f/2.8 IS III and EF 600mm f/2.8 IS III lenses, which are much more like the RF-mount lenses with focus-by-wire manual focusing and more electrical contacts internally, which suggest that these two lenses could be upgraded to the RF-mount at some point and take those new teleconverters.


----------



## sanj (Jun 19, 2020)

dwarven said:


> I typically don't photograph birds in foliage, and I've only been shooting for a little over a year, but I'm pretty okay at math. This shot was taken at f/6.3, 1/400, 1600 ISO. I can get the same exposure by closing the aperture to f/11, leaving the shutter speed the same, and bumping the ISO to ~5000. This was taken around 4pm with not great lighting. There was a clearing nearby with close to perfect lighting and I could have used nearly whatever ISO I wanted. No, the 800mm isn't going to let you take the same shots as a 600mm f/4, but it will probably be half the weight or less and cost 1/10th as much. It sounds like this lens isn't for you? I don't know what to tell you. Go practice at f/11 I guess if it bothers you that much.
> 
> 
> View attachment 190892


Nice photo. In my experience, I need faster shutter speed generally.


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> There is also the latest EF 400mm f/2.8 IS III and EF 600mm f/2.8 IS III lenses, which are much more like the RF-mount lenses with focus-by-wire manual focusing and more electrical contacts internally, which suggest that these two lenses could be upgraded to the RF-mount at some point and take those new teleconverters.


I'd be very reluctant to have my 600/4L IS III converted to RF mount, even if it's inexpensive. It would cut me off from using it on my EF bodies, which will be around for a long time yet. (Maybe for ever, if Canon has no plans for a high end mirrorless replacement for the 7D2.)


----------



## padam (Jun 19, 2020)

Steve Balcombe said:


> I'd be very reluctant to have my 600/4L IS III converted to RF mount, even if it's inexpensive. It would cut me off from using it on my EF bodies, which will be around for a long time yet. (Maybe for ever, if Canon has no plans for a high end mirrorless replacement for the 7D2.)


The R5 might function just fine as a 7D2 replacement (for the time being), as the in-camera 1.6x crop mode it works just like any APS-C mirrorless camera would.


----------



## Rule556 (Jun 19, 2020)

dwarven said:


> possibly, but I’ve learned the hard way that I’d rather have more noise than a blurry picture, so I usually shoot at higher ISOs these days.



Absolutely. Here in Seattle, I‘m at 1600 way more often than 100 or 400. For me, I’ve rarely had any issues with noise at higher ISOs with my R.


----------



## usern4cr (Jun 19, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> You can see a comparison here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The sharpness is similar, but the DO contrast is significantly worse. I hope they can do better than that with the new RF DO lenses. But that may explain why they're not "L" lenses.


----------



## TracerHD (Jun 19, 2020)

Question 1:
does f 2,8 stop down to 5,6 natively at lens
effect the image qualitiy the same than use 2,8 + 2x tele converter?
At some lenses stop down increase the sharpness in the corners, aswell f13+ decrease the image quality.

Question 2:
Won't be flicker a problem at 800mm + 2x tele-converter?


----------



## Traveler (Jun 19, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> Speaking only for myself, I’m not spending $5000-10,000 on a new lens in order to hang it on a mismatched tube with a second mount interface to wobble. If I need a big long lens I’ll buy an inexpensive resellable used one. No revenue for Canon for me in the category until they have native big whites.
> 
> All it takes is a longer rear housing and no change to any of the other mechanical, optical, and electronic components.
> 
> Of course that rear housing will presumably include a control ring and the matching RF silver element like the RF70-200.


I get it. But the big whites are the least painfull lenses to use covertor with. Of course they can just make the lens longer and make it native. But I don't think they want to. They'd probably try to make it even shorter, faster AF etc


----------



## Traveler (Jun 19, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> I totally agree. I don't see much advantage making a 11-24 or 8-15 in RF version. Of course they would be a bit smaller but i would probably buy the EF versions anyway and use them with the drop-in filter adapter.


Of course I'd love to have the 8-15 as a native RF lens so I could get rid of the adapter for good. But it's not that big of a deal, I use it occasionally.


----------



## NoNaCannon (Jun 19, 2020)

Are there any details or rumors about the data rates for the R5 and R6 video file types? Is the "raw" a "raw lite" codec or the full, humungous files like with the 1DX Mkiii?


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## Otara (Jun 19, 2020)

Steve Balcombe said:


> I'd be very reluctant to have my 600/4L IS III converted to RF mount, even if it's inexpensive. It would cut me off from using it on my EF bodies, which will be around for a long time yet. (Maybe for ever, if Canon has no plans for a high end mirrorless replacement for the 7D2.)



I dont think this would be easy for lenses already made, more that making an RF equivalent would be fairly simple. The only reason Id want an RF equivalent would be to allow the high speed display to work, which probably needs some kind of electronic changes for the extra pins, as well as the mount adapter.


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## Viggo (Jun 19, 2020)

11-24 RF? Nine stops of vignetting?


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## reefroamer (Jun 19, 2020)

Canon will be offering a good range of resolution (and prices) across the R-body lineup, with R5 at 45mp, R6 at 20mp, RP at 26mp and R at 30mp. Every shooter should be able to find something that works best in most of their cases. So take your pick. We always have to make compromises on price and feature set, but I think it’s a pretty nice spread here. And on the RF glass, I think Canon has done a pretty stellar job in getting so many RF lenses out the door in less than 24 months while also bringing four new full-frame R bodies (or five if you include the Ra) to market in the same time frame. (I’m including the R5 and R6 in this group.) All in under two years. Who says an elephant can’t learn to dance?


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## AJ (Jun 19, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> So put the EF-RF adapter between the EF lens and RF TC.


You're right. That would work.


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> The R5 might function just fine as a 7D2 replacement (for the time being), as the in-camera 1.6x crop mode it works just like any APS-C mirrorless camera would.


Not the first time this has been proposed, but I don't need to replace the 7D2 with something slightly worse (in some important ways) than the six-year-old body I already have. I want to replace it with something six years better, which improves on the 7D2 by at least as much as the R5 improves on the 5D4.


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Jun 19, 2020)

Otara said:


> I dont think this would be easy for lenses already made, more that making an RF equivalent would be fairly simple. The only reason Id want an RF equivalent would be to allow the high speed display to work, which probably needs some kind of electronic changes for the extra pins, as well as the mount adapter.


Sigma has developed a system which allows them to exchange mounts for a reasonable price, even between mounts for different brands. For Canon to create an EF lens which can be converted to RF would be trivial in comparison.

But yes, the high speed display is critical. If I can't get full performance from the R5 with my best lenses, it starts to look like a bad idea.


----------



## tmroper (Jun 19, 2020)

That Adorama link has a quote from Linsey Alder saying the R5 is an "amazing deal," which sounds promising for the price.


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## joestopper (Jun 19, 2020)

Act444 said:


> From my personal experience, I was in a similar boat 10 years ago and got the f4 version. To make a long story short, I ended up trading up to the 2.8 as soon as I could afford to do so.
> 
> It is my experience that the difference between f4 and f2.8 in moderate to dim lighting can be very noticeable, and even substantial in some cases. Say at f6.3 you’re at ISO 12,800. F4 is 1.3 stop difference = ISO 5,000. F2.8 is another stop = ISO 2,500. Considering that IQ on many camera sensors deteriorates considerably past 3200, this could affect print size, cropping power, etc. The 2.8 lens would allow for a much better shot than either the f4 or 6.3. But in good light you’ll see far less of a difference...
> 
> I suppose final results will ultimately depend on the camera body you’re shooting with.



What you are saying is all true: 1 stop can make a big difference. That is why I am not interested in f/2.8 (llike 15-35). I was so much hoping for the rumored 14-28 f/2 to appear. But apparently it is not anywhere close on the horizon.


----------



## 1D4 (Jun 19, 2020)

tmroper said:


> That Adorama link has a quote from Linsey Alder saying the R5 is an "amazing deal," which sounds promising for the price.



Maybe it was an amazing deal because she got it for free?


----------



## joestopper (Jun 19, 2020)

tmroper said:


> That Adorama link has a quote from Linsey Alder saying the R5 is an "amazing deal," which sounds promising for the price.



An "amazing deal" is something different. But the R5 has certainly a fair price tag.


----------



## AEWest (Jun 19, 2020)

padam said:


> The R5 might function just fine as a 7D2 replacement (for the time being), as the in-camera 1.6x crop mode it works just like any APS-C mirrorless camera would.


A very expensive 7D2 replacement!


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Jun 19, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> CR seems to be hella reactive lately what's up guys?


Ha ha. I'd put it down to a combination of going stir-crazy in lock-down coupled with hyper-excitement about a major new release on its way.


----------



## WOODS (Jun 19, 2020)

I’m intrigued by the unusual rubber cover flap on the front right of the R5 (missing on the R, RP and R6). It’s unusual as it has quite a large opening for a thumb... could this be a vent hole to exhaust heat from the body? I imagine it’s the remote control terminal like on the 5d mkiv, but the thumb opening is larger, with the body slightly set back as clearance. Thoughts?


----------



## andy.steele (Jun 19, 2020)

WOODS said:


> View attachment 190905
> 
> I’m intrigued by the unusual rubber cover flap on the front right of the R5 (missing on the R, RP and R6). It’s unusual as it has quite a large opening for a thumb... could this be a vent hole to exhaust heat from the body? I imagine it’s the remote control terminal like on the 5d mkiv, but the thumb opening is larger, with the body slightly set back as clearance. Thoughts?


It’s the plug in for the Canon Remote Switch RS-80N3 same as on 5D Mark IV


----------



## JustUs7 (Jun 20, 2020)

WOODS said:


> View attachment 190905
> 
> I’m intrigued by the unusual rubber cover flap on the front right of the R5 (missing on the R, RP and R6). It’s unusual as it has quite a large opening for a thumb... could this be a vent hole to exhaust heat from the body? I imagine it’s the remote control terminal like on the 5d mkiv, but the thumb opening is larger, with the body slightly set back as clearance. Thoughts?



Intake for the turbo charger.


----------



## Whowe (Jun 20, 2020)

Steve Balcombe said:


> Not the first time this has been proposed, but I don't need to replace the 7D2 with something slightly worse (in some important ways) than the six-year-old body I already have. I want to replace it with something six years better, which improves on the 7D2 by at least as much as the R5 improves on the 5D4.


I think the R5 will improve on the 7d2 by that type of improvement. In crop mode, you will have the reach of aps-c and still have 18-19 mp (assuming 45mp sensor), significantly improved AF similar to 1dx, faster frame rate, faster memory which should increase buffer (especially in crop mode), similar weather sealing of 5d series, and better image quality and high iso performance due to newer sensor tech and processor. On top of that, you will have full frame when you don’t need the extra reach and the associated improved IQ and high iso.

I’m looking for 7d2 upgrade, also. I think the R5 is a great option, but expensive for someone coming from a 7d2!


----------



## Eclipsed (Jun 20, 2020)

Traveler said:


> I get it. But the big whites are the least painfull lenses to use covertor with. Of course they can just make the lens longer and make it native. But I don't think they want to. They'd probably try to make it even shorter, faster AF etc


Good aspirations. But the worst solution is a
mismatched looking converter with the slop of two mounts. Who would pay $12,000 for that when a native version would be trivial?


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 20, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> Good aspirations. But the worst solution is a
> mismatched looking converter with the slop of two mounts. Who would pay $12,000 for that when a native version would be trivial?


MIsmatched: The camera is black and the lens is white. As far as slop goes, never noticed.


----------



## LensFungus (Jun 20, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I'm curious - What discounts do you think there will be on Black Friday? R5/6, RF lenses?


I live in Germany and I'm always amazed by the Black Friday deals photographers get everywhere in the US. I don't live in the US but I see them every year on the rumor pages for the other camera companies. In Germany photographers are *******. We get close to nothing lol. Maybe some deals on some tripods or strobes from smaller companies. That's it.

However we got shops like Saturn / Media Markt and they give discounts around 16%-20% on everything (maybe not on some Apple stuff), which means every photography gear they sell. This sounds really good, unfortunately some products, for example mabye something like the Canon EOS R or the EF 85mm 1.2, are only availabe in very small numbers. So as soon as the day starts at midnight you have to buy your stuff within the first minutes or the popular stuff might be sold out because everybody goes crazy and knows how this game is played. Sounds easy but it gets harder because the website might get too laggy.


----------



## mpb001 (Jun 20, 2020)

I think that the similar body style of these two cameras (R5 and R6) appears to be consistent with how Canon approached the similar appearance of the 5DIV and 6D line with similar ergonomics. I am glad to see this. The one difference on the R series cameras is the missing top info panel on the R6 but it does have a settings dial, which I like. The similar bodies however helps the user who is used to using one of these bodies easily pick up the other and work with them seemlessly.


----------



## navastronia (Jun 20, 2020)

joestopper said:


> What you are saying is all true: 1 stop can make a big difference. That is why I am not interested in f/2.8 (llike 15-35). I was so much hoping for the rumored 14-28 f/2 to appear. But apparently it is not anywhere close on the horizon.



It's discouraging, but I still think and hope we get it in 2021.


----------



## navastronia (Jun 20, 2020)

mpb001 said:


> I think that the similar body style of these two cameras (R5 and R6) appears to be consistent with how Canon approached the similar appearance of the 5DIV and 6D line with similar ergonomics. I am glad to see this. It helps the user who is used to using one of these bodies easily pick up the other and work with them seemlessly.



I hope the ergonomics of the R5 are better than those of current R-mount bodies. The R and RP aren't awful, but neither are they comparable to the 5D-line of DSLRs.

. . . I'll be honest, I really just wanna hold one for a few minutes. I'll be gentle, I promise!


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jun 20, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I hope the ergonomics of the R5 are better than those of current R-mount bodies. The R and RP aren't awful, but neither are they comparable to the 5D-line of DSLRs.
> 
> . . . I'll be honest, I really just wanna hold one for a few minutes. I'll be gentle, I promise!


Yeah it was a weird journey for me. When I got semi serious I got a 60D which was great at the time. I don't have big hands so it felt good. When I got serious I got a 5DIV which initially felt big, big eventually feels amazing in the hand. Going to the R it felt too small, but eventually I got used to it. I realized it was like going back to my 60D. I guess you just adjust. At least knowing it's a Canon you know will just feel good to hold.


----------



## tonblom (Jun 20, 2020)

How about canon R5 exposure on focus point(s)? Any rumors?


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 20, 2020)

tonblom said:


> How about canon R5 exposure on focus point(s)? Any rumors?



On mirrorless Canons 'evaluative' already heavily weights exposure towards the selected focus point. It's not AF pointed linked spot focus, but it does a good job for things like my kids standing in front of a big window.


----------



## Eclipsed (Jun 20, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> MIsmatched: The camera is black and the lens is white. As far as slop goes, never noticed.


Aesthetics are a personal matter but notice how the silver ring that matched the R body Mount transitions to a white lens quite nicely. Not so much to a white lens.
Functionally, it’s tolerable to have a dedicated adapter for a lens but juggling adapted and native lenses can be an I’m inconvenience at best.
(How can I get these ads to stop interrupting my typing?)


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 20, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> Aesthetics are a personal matter but notice how the silver ring that matched the R body Mount transitions to a white lens quite nicely. Not so much to a white lens.
> Functionally, it’s tolerable to have a dedicated adapter for a lens but juggling adapted and native lenses can be an I’m inconvenience at best.
> (How can I get these ads to stop interrupting my typing?)



The RF extenders are strange in that regard, they are white, so it goes from Body+silver ring -> completely with extender -> silver ring + big white.


----------



## usern4cr (Jun 20, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> Aesthetics are a personal matter but notice how the silver ring that matched the R body Mount transitions to a white lens quite nicely. Not so much to a white lens.
> Functionally, it’s tolerable to have a dedicated adapter for a lens but juggling adapted and native lenses can be an I’m inconvenience at best.
> (How can I get these ads to stop interrupting my typing?)


I have AdBlock installed on my Mac. I don't get ads interrupting, because I don't get the ads (other than what are embedded as posted content by Craig). It's free, and I've been happy with it for a long time.


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## Act444 (Jun 20, 2020)

If it turns up, I'm interested in that 50 1.8 for my RP. Hopefully it has IS. Will likely end up trading in the EF version to get it as I'll no longer have a need for this with the 5D...

(...and so it begins...?)


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jun 20, 2020)

Meanwhile, DxOMark released a review on 1dxIII sensor.

https://www.dxomark.com/canon-eos-1d-x-mark-iii-sensor-review/

I don't know what's going on but it's rated lower than 5DIV's. Hope the R5 won't be a disappointment in terms of the sensor performance.
I'm not a big believer in DxOMark but...


----------



## DBounce (Jun 20, 2020)

joestopper said:


> What you are saying is all true: 1 stop can make a big difference. That is why I am not interested in f/2.8 (llike 15-35). I was so much hoping for the rumored 14-28 f/2 to appear. But apparently it is not anywhere close on the horizon.



The reason I skipped the F2 lenses is two part:
1. They lack image stabilization.
2. They are huge and heavy, tipping the scale at over 3lbs. What would the trinity weigh?


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Jun 20, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Meanwhile, DxOMark released a review on 1dxIII sensor.
> 
> https://www.dxomark.com/canon-eos-1d-x-mark-iii-sensor-review/
> 
> ...


Something must be amiss here... all other reports have the 1dx mark iii comparing much better against its rivals


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## smr (Jun 20, 2020)

I'm hoping to upgrade from my Canon 80D to Full Frame. I shoot mainly 90 percent Landscape Photography, can't afford the R5 so I was hoping the R6 would be the one. I was kind of hoping for a few more megapixels though I think ... if I ever wanted to print A3+ or crop in heavily a 30mp Sensor would have been better? Or do you think 20mp would be sufficient?


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## brad-man (Jun 20, 2020)

smr said:


> I'm hoping to upgrade from my Canon 80D to Full Frame. I shoot mainly 90 percent Landscape Photography, can't afford the R5 so I was hoping the R6 would be the one. I was kind of hoping for a few more megapixels though I think ... if I ever wanted to print A3+ or crop in heavily a 30mp Sensor would have been better? Or do you think 20mp would be sufficient?


For mostly landscape, I would opt for a gray market R for under $1500.

Eos R


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## usern4cr (Jun 20, 2020)

smr said:


> I'm hoping to upgrade from my Canon 80D to Full Frame. I shoot mainly 90 percent Landscape Photography, can't afford the R5 so I was hoping the R6 would be the one. I was kind of hoping for a few more megapixels though I think ... if I ever wanted to print A3+ or crop in heavily a 30mp Sensor would have been better? Or do you think 20mp would be sufficient?


I currently have a 20MP sensor and can print really large prints with it - up to a yard wide looks beautiful (I do help by making the photo as good as possible in post). I email it off to WhiteWall in Germany and they ship it back for almost free. So don't sweat that, unless you crop really heavy (in which case the 30MP image will have somewhat similar issues). The R6 having IBIS alone is worth buying IMHO, plus you get everything else it offers, like a 5Mdot EVF and dual card slots! I'd say get the R6 and revel in the new beautiful camera. Or you could look for a used or gray market R for less $. One other option you have is to save up a bit more money and see what the R5s 85?MP sensor & cost is in maybe a year or less - it will probably be aimed more at landscape photography anyway.


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## Ozarker (Jun 20, 2020)

smr said:


> I'm hoping to upgrade from my Canon 80D to Full Frame. I shoot mainly 90 percent Landscape Photography, can't afford the R5 so I was hoping the R6 would be the one. I was kind of hoping for a few more megapixels though I think ... if I ever wanted to print A3+ or crop in heavily a 30mp Sensor would have been better? Or do you think 20mp would be sufficient?


The R is a great choice for landscapes and portraits, in my opinion. It really is a very nice camera.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 20, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Something must be amiss here... all other reports have the 1dx mark iii comparing much better against its rivals



Not much better, in terms of the dynamic range it's pretty much on par with the rivals, e.g. it's slightly better than A9II and slightly worse than A7RIV, and better than 5DIV. That's according to photonstophotos:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV,Sony ILCE-7RM4,Sony ILCE-9M2


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## Kjsheldo (Jun 20, 2020)

Canon needs to figure out there insanely loud shutter sound and shutter response. It's a big deal, strangely enough, now that I've used Panasonic and Fuji cameras with their beautiful shutters and quiet, but responsive shutter sounds. Hard to go back to the EOS R and do doc-photography (or really any type besides sports) and hear that CLANK, drawing attention to yourself.


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## TracerHD (Jun 20, 2020)

The answer is just that simple: https://www.photonstophotos.net/Cha...n EOS 5D Mark IV,Sony ILCE-7RM4,Sony ILCE-9M2

if you shoot ISO 31 - 80 you buy a D850
if you shoot ISO 100 - 159 you buy a A7R IV as a second camera
for ISO 200 you buy a 1DX III additional
for ISO 251 - 1237 you use your A7R IV
for ISO 1600 - 12800 you need to switch between the 1DX III, R and 5D IV situationaly 

so 5 cameras will bring the best result in quality / dynamic range.


____________________________________

much more important: it seems like the MP-count at dxo-mark has much more impact to the rating result than the rest. Atleast MP-count affect the other cathegories. Compare the 1DX III, D850, S1R and D5


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## reefroamer (Jun 20, 2020)

smr said:


> I'm hoping to upgrade from my Canon 80D to Full Frame. I shoot mainly 90 percent Landscape Photography, can't afford the R5 so I was hoping the R6 would be the one. I was kind of hoping for a few more megapixels though I think ... if I ever wanted to print A3+ or crop in heavily a 30mp Sensor would have been better? Or do you think 20mp would be sufficient?


You might appreciate the EOS R more, since it's 30mp sensor has shown up well here for landscape and portrait photography, though not so much for action shots. And it’s likely to be priced below the R6, and well below the R5.


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## Quirkz (Jun 20, 2020)

TracerHD said:


> Question 1:
> does f 2,8 stop down to 5,6 natively at lens
> effect the image qualitiy the same than use 2,8 + 2x tele converter?
> At some lenses stop down increase the sharpness in the corners, aswell f13+ decrease the image quality.
> ...


If I understand your question correctly, you’re asking how a teleconverter impacts lens quality compared to changing aperture on the lens normally without the teleconverter.

I’ll avoid the physics, but when you step a lens down normally by changing the size of the aperture hole,, it’s sharpness increases.

A teleconverter is actually a type of lens itself with more glass in it. When you add The teleconverter, It changes the optics of the lens. This decreases the aperture, but unlike the example, it makes the sharpness worse. It has more glass in the path of the light.


I don’t understand your question about flicker. Perhaps you mean motion blur due to it being so long? If so, Yes. You’d need to shoot at faster shutter speeds, like all telephoto lenses.


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## TracerHD (Jun 20, 2020)

Quirkz said:


> If I understand your question correctly, you’re asking how a teleconverter impacts lens quality compared to changing aperture on the lens normally without the teleconverter. [...] I don’t understand your question about flicker. Perhaps you mean motion blur due to it being so long? If so, Yes. You’d need to shoot at faster shutter speeds, like all telephoto lenses.



Thanks a lot! =) That was exactly what I want to know


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jun 20, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Not much better, in terms of the dynamic range it's pretty much on par with the rivals, e.g. it's slightly better than A9II and slightly worse than A7RIV, and better than 5DIV. That's according to photonstophotos:
> 
> https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV,Sony ILCE-7RM4,Sony ILCE-9M2







__





Shadow Improvement of Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting






www.photonstophotos.net





This is a more relevant metric in my opinion. The sensor response to lifting shadows has a greater bearing on the way I work than total dynamic range. TDR of Canon sensors is usually suficient for most subjects I photograph. The 1DX3 has a significantly flatter ISO curve than any other Canon sensor I've looked at. If the sensor in the 6R is as ISO invarient as the 1DX3 than it is going to be a winner IMO.


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## slclick (Jun 20, 2020)

So far, of all the R based camera bodies, the R seems like the best bag for my buck to replace my 5D3. The 5 is too rich for a secondary hobby and the 6 is like the kids say, Meh since I'll never turn on the recording feature (the feature which is free of course) So when CanonFanBoy puts his on the market I'll be on it like Pence on The Donald.


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## Ozarker (Jun 20, 2020)

slclick said:


> So far, of all the R based camera bodies, the R seems like the best bag for my buck to replace my 5D3. The 5 is too rich for a secondary hobby and the 6 is like the kids say, Meh since I'll never turn on the recording feature (the feature which is free of course) So when CanonFanBoy puts his on the market I'll be on it like Pence on The Donald.


You'll be waiting a long time.  My R is going to be in my dirty little hands for years.


----------



## Steve Balcombe (Jun 20, 2020)

Whowe said:


> I think the R5 will improve on the 7d2 by that type of improvement. In crop mode, you will have the reach of aps-c and still have 18-19 mp (assuming 45mp sensor), significantly improved AF similar to 1dx, faster frame rate, faster memory which should increase buffer (especially in crop mode), similar weather sealing of 5d series, and better image quality and high iso performance due to newer sensor tech and processor. On top of that, you will have full frame when you don’t need the extra reach and the associated improved IQ and high iso.
> 
> I’m looking for 7d2 upgrade, also. I think the R5 is a great option, but expensive for someone coming from a 7d2!


It's actually 17 MP, and that doesn't cut it when the current generation crop sensor (as in the 90D) is 32 MP. And £4,000 doesn't cut it either, for anybody who simply wants a crop body.

I actually shoot both full frame and crop, so (if a few doubts can be assuaged) I will quite likely have an R5 in my hands at some point for full frame shooting. But even when the cost objection has been rendered irrelevant by already having one, crop mode will not substitute for even current generation crop DSLRs, never mind a potential next generation.


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 20, 2020)

sanj said:


> Nice photo. In my experience, I need faster shutter speed generally.


Yes. You are not shooting at 1/400 on an 800mm lens. Even with a tripod you would get soft images 90% of the time. In rrality 1/800sec is the minumum. So you would then be looking at ISO 10000


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 21, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Yes. You are not shooting at 1/400 on an 800mm lens. Even with a tripod you would get soft images 90% of the time. In rrality 1/800sec is the minumum. So you would then be looking at ISO 10000



That's not the case at all. I did shot plenty of sharp images at 600 and 800mm equivalent focal lengths and shutter speeds of 1/100 or 1/200 but often less than that. With fairly static subject and IS is perfectly possible.


----------



## raptor3x (Jun 21, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Yes. You are not shooting at 1/400 on an 800mm lens. Even with a tripod you would get soft images 90% of the time. In rrality 1/800sec is the minumum. So you would then be looking at ISO 10000



Fully electronic shutters and hybrid IS + IBIS together allow for sharp shots at much lower shutter speeds than 1/400s. If the combined IBIS + IS performance is as good as the early rumors reported than I would expect to be able to get sharp shots at 1/50s with some reliability.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jun 21, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> Fully electronic shutters and hybrid IS + IBIS together allow for sharp shots at much lower shutter speeds than 1/400s. If the combined IBIS + IS performance is as good as the early rumors reported than I would expect to be able to get sharp shots at 1/50s with some reliability.


Not with wildlife you wouldn't. The slightest movement will cause a blurry image at low shutter speeds. IF you can guarantee your subject will remain perfectly motionless then you can shoot a bird at maybe 1/150 but on an 800mm lens no amount of stabalization is gong to let you drop that to much lower speeds and still get good images. At least it would be very very rare which goes back to my point that 90% of shots would be soft


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 21, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> That's not the case at all. I did shot plenty of sharp images at 600 and 800mm equivalent focal lengths and shutter speeds of 1/100 or 1/200 but often less than that. With fairly static subject and IS is perfectly possible.


Yes. Which is why I said 90% of shots would be soft which implies 10%might be sharp. But if you accepted those numbers and lowered your shutter speed to 1/50sec then you would be missing so many more good shots and doing yourself no favours at all


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 21, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> http://[URL]https://www.photonstoph...,Canon EOS 1D X Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV[/URL]
> 
> This is a more relevant metric in my opinion. The sensor response to lifting shadows has a greater bearing on the way I work than total dynamic range. TDR of Canon sensors is usually suficient for most subjects I photograph. The 1DX3 has a significantly flatter ISO curve than any other Canon sensor I've looked at. If the sensor in the 6R is as ISO invarient as the 1DX3 than it is going to be a winner IMO.




I think it's very specific measurement, as explained here https://www.photonstophotos.net/Gen...ographic_Dynamic_Range_Shadow_Improvement.htm

It doesn't tell us a lot about the absolute noise in the shadows. This metric only tells you what to use, in-camera ISO gain or lifting the exposure in post processing.

From the landscape photography perspective, I'm interested in the DR at the base ISO, i.e. max DR possible. High ISO performance is also of some interest (for night photography) but not so much.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Jun 21, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Not much better, in terms of the dynamic range it's pretty much on par with the rivals, e.g. it's slightly better than A9II and slightly worse than A7RIV, and better than 5DIV. That's according to photonstophotos:
> 
> https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV,Sony ILCE-7RM4,Sony ILCE-9M2


Yes exactly, as I said, it compares much better than in the DXO report. That is not to say it is 'much better' in absolute terms just that the comparison is usually more favourable to the 1dxiii


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 21, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Yes exactly, as I said, it compares much better than in the DXO report. That is not to say it is 'much better' in absolute terms just that the comparison is usually more favourable to the 1dxiii



Right, overall 'sensor score' from DxO is pretty much meaningless to me, especially considering their obscure methods of measurement. 
I just shared the news, somewhat concerned about the prospective sensor performance of the R5, as supposedly it's the same next-gen sensor tech from Canon as we see in 1DxIII. My hope was it wouldn't be worse than 5DIV and hopefully better.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jun 21, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Right, overall 'sensor score' from DxO is pretty much meaningless to me, especially considering their obscure methods of measurement.
> I just shared the news, somewhat concerned about the prospective sensor performance of the R5, as supposedly it's the same next-gen sensor tech from Canon as we see in 1DxIII. My hope was it wouldn't be worse than 5DIV and hopefully better.


Do we know what sensor tech it is? Or are we going on the (probably logical) assumption it is the same as the 1Dx3? Which I thought was pretty good anyway from what I have heard


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## raptor3x (Jun 21, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Not with wildlife you wouldn't. The slightest movement will cause a blurry image at low shutter speeds. IF you can guarantee your subject will remain perfectly motionless then you can shoot a bird at maybe 1/150 but on an 800mm lens no amount of stabalization is gong to let you drop that to much lower speeds and still get good images. At least it would be very very rare which goes back to my point that 90% of shots would be soft



I think you're going to pleasantly surprised here. Sure, if you have moving wildlife that all goes out the window, but for things like perched birds or animals at rest then you can go pretty low with shutterspeed. In the m43 world, you get people shooting at 800mm EFL at shutter speeds of around 1/10s pretty regularly and 1200mm at 1/20s.


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## Ozarker (Jun 21, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> I think you're going to pleasantly surprised here. Sure, if you have moving wildlife that all goes out the window, but for things like perched birds or animals at rest then you can go pretty low with shutterspeed. In the m43 world, you get people shooting at 800mm EFL at shutter speeds of around 1/10s pretty regularly and 1200mm at 1/20s.


I regularly photograph a toddler at anywhere from 24mm to 200mm ff, or 24-80mm EFL M43. Even when he's still, a shutter speed of 1/10-1/20 sec is going to be blurry at the detail level. I don't know of any songbirds that sit still enough for shutter speeds that low. Maybe a buzzard, sleeping. Forget BIF, landing, taking off, eating, feeding young, breeding, etc. Forget pretty much anything. While lens IS or IBIS will take care of my movements, it will have zero effect if the subject moves at all. 800mm ff or crop EFL at those speeds on an animal would have very very very low success rates. It is silly to even suggest. That people shoot at those speeds... fine. That does not, by any means, represent that they are getting anything usable on a regular basis. Until I see a photo with exif proving it, I am a doubter.


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## David_E (Jun 21, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> *Here is the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6...*


*Ouch! Here **are** the Canon EOS R5 and **the** Canon EOS R6...*


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## raptor3x (Jun 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I regularly photograph a toddler at anywhere from 24mm to 200mm ff, or 24-80mm EFL M43. Even when he's still, a shutter speed of 1/10-1/20 sec is going to be blurry at the detail level. I don't know of any songbirds that sit still enough for shutter speeds that low. Maybe a buzzard, sleeping. Forget BIF, landing, taking off, eating, feeding young, breeding, etc. Forget pretty much anything. While lens IS or IBIS will take care of my movements, it will have zero effect if the subject moves at all. 800mm ff or crop EFL at those speeds on an animal would have very very very low success rates. It is silly to even suggest. That people shoot at those speeds... fine. That does not, by any means, represent that they are getting anything usable on a regular basis. Until I see a photo with exif proving it, I am a doubter.



Here's a photo shot a rather extreme example for you, note that this particular image isn't mine but from a poster over on DPReview. This photo was shot at 1200mm EFL | 1/40s but in the Olympus HHHR mode, which means it's taking 16 shots and then stacking them together, although this image was then downsampled to regular resolution. I'm not claiming that stabilization to get very low shutter speed works all the time, but it can definitely work even for small birds.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 21, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> Here's a photo shot a rather extreme example for you, note that this particular image isn't mine but from a poster over on DPReview. This photo was shot at 1200mm EFL | 1/40s but in the Olympus HHHR mode, which means it's taking 16 shots and then stacking them together, although this image was then downsampled to regular resolution. I'm not claiming that stabilization to get very low shutter speed works all the time, but it can definitely work even for small birds.


And below is the exif from the shot.

And yes, at 2x and 4x your suggested 1/10 and 1/20 shutter speed and a lower f/stop (f/7.1 vs f/11), using a feature Canon doesn't have (HHHR mode).

Look, stabilization (IS or IBIS) isn't even a factor here. I hope you know that. All it does is help with camera/lens movement. What we are talking about is subject movement at low shutter speeds. Stabilization does not help that one single bit. Not a bit. Not even a tiny bit.

Also, EFL doesn't really mean anything either. What you have is a 300mm lens and a 2x digital teleconverter (digital crop, not a real tele converter) on a m4/3 crop. It is still a 300mm lens.


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## raptor3x (Jun 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> And below is the exif from the shot.
> 
> And yes, at 2x and 4x your suggested 1/10 and 1/20 shutter speed and a lower f/stop (f/7.1 vs f/11), using a feature Canon doesn't have (HHHR mode).
> 
> Look, stabilization (IS or IBIS) isn't even a factor here. I hope you know that. All it does is help with camera/lens movement. What we are talking about is subject movement at low shutter speeds. Stabilization does not help that one single bit. Not a bit.



Literally nobody here has claimed stabilization helps with subject movement, please stop beating up on a strawman. Also, it's shot at f/7.1 but that's equivalent to shooting at f/14 on a FF body. You and Aussie are suggesting that it's essentially impossible to get pixel level sharpness on a living subject at very low shutter speeds which is just not true. In that image, the HHHR mode doesn't help make it sharper, with a living subject it makes much harder to get a sharp shot as you're almost shooting at a shutter speed that's effectively 16x as long, the effective exposure time of that image is 1/2.5s; that's why I said that image is something of an extreme example. The whole point is that stabilization makes these slow lenses much more useful as long as you have subjects that are relatively still. If you're trying to shoot small birds at their most active then yeah, you're not going to have much success at those shutter speeds, but then again at that time of day you probably won't need to use shutter speeds that low even with an f/11 lens.


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## Ozarker (Jun 21, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> Literally nobody here has claimed stabilization helps with subject movement, please stop beating up on a strawman. Also, it's shot at f/7.1 but that's equivalent to shooting at f/14 on a FF body. You and Aussie are suggesting that it's essentially impossible to get pixel level sharpness on a living subject at very low shutter speeds which is just not true. In that image, the HHHR mode doesn't help make it sharper, with a living subject it makes much harder to get a sharp shot as you're almost shooting at a shutter speed that's effectively 16x as long, the effective exposure time of that image is 1/2.5s; that's why I said that image is something of an extreme example. The whole point is that stabilization makes these slow lenses much more useful as long as you have subjects that are relatively still. If you're trying to shoot small birds at their most active then yeah, you're not going to have much success at those shutter speeds, but then again at that time of day you probably won't need to use shutter speeds that low even with an f/11 lens.


Nobody said it is impossible. Nobody. What we are saying is that it is impracticable for most situations.

"I'm not claiming that stabilization to get very low shutter speed works all the time, but it can definitely work even for small birds." Not my straw man, yours.  Stabilization has nothing to do with the subject. It has to do with the photographer and his chosen shutter speed.

When you mention an equivalency between f/7.1 and f/14, the equivalency is the DOF (I believe), not the amount of light let in. My f/2.8 on my m43 lens lets in the same light as f/2.8 on a FF lens. Same exposure settings for the same scene.


Exposure: m43 F4 = FF F4 (same ISO and shutter)

Dof: m43 F4 = FF F8

BTW: I see nothing in the exif indicating that HHHR mode was used. I'm simply giving the benefit of the doubt to be friendly. I certainly do not believe the bird sat completely still for as long as you say for that mode to have been used. If you say the bird sat still for 16 shots at 1/40 sec, then okay. I don't see that. I am seeing a single shot. HHHR mode is for static subjects.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 21, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Do we know what sensor tech it is? Or are we going on the (probably logical) assumption it is the same as the 1Dx3? Which I thought was pretty good anyway from what I have heard



The tech should be similar despite different megapixel count - both 1DxIII and R5 have very fast readout which previous sensors didn't have, also Canon claimed it was the new tech - I just assume it's likely the same improvement in the dynamic range (if any).

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Cha...,Canon EOS 1D X Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV

This chart shows the DR improvement against both 1DxII and 5DIV, so I hope the R5 will be maybe 0.5 stops better than the 5DIV or at least not worse.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 21, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> Literally nobody here has claimed stabilization helps with subject movement


It actually does. 
First the shake blur adds to the subject movement blur, so unstabilised images are still worse than stabilised especially in edge cases when the subject movement blur is small.
Second, a good stablisation enables you to do panning which also helps reduce the motion blur. Tele lenses have special panning mode and sometimes more than one.


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## Max TT (Jun 21, 2020)

Listen, this R6!!! 

I have been asking for more info about it since February, to the point of developing a little resentment of the R5. 

Now that we got it.... I am beyond excited. This is going to be the best selling camera body for the foreseeable future.

Wonder what is going to be the price tag on the 50mm 1.8 and 85mm 2 Macro.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jun 21, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I think it's very specific measurement, as explained here https://www.photonstophotos.net/Gen...ographic_Dynamic_Range_Shadow_Improvement.htm
> 
> It doesn't tell us a lot about the absolute noise in the shadows. This metric only tells you what to use, in-camera ISO gain or lifting the exposure in post processing.
> 
> From the landscape photography perspective, I'm interested in the DR at the base ISO, i.e. max DR possible. High ISO performance is also of some interest (for night photography) but not so much.


In my experience with multiple generations of cameras across several brands I’ve found that metric to be the most accurate predictor of noise performance. It clearly shows improvement between successive generation of Canon sensors which I understood to be your concern. Sorry you didn’t find the information useful.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 21, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> In my experience with multiple generations of cameras across several brands I’ve found that metric to be the most accurate predictor of noise performance. It clearly shows improvement between successive generation of Canon sensors which I understood to be your concern. Sorry you didn’t find the information useful.



It's a useful metric, only it doesn't tell a lot about the dynamic range. This is how the author explains it:



> For those shooting raw it can be useful to know when raising ISO in the camera has little or no advantage over applying digital gain in post processing.



It doesn't tell us how good a sensor is at the base ISO.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jun 21, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> It's a useful metric, only it doesn't tell a lot about the dynamic range. This is how the author explains it:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't tell us how good a sensor is at the base ISO.


I understand what it’s measuring. I also understand that there is a very strong correlation between iso invariance and noise performance including at base iso. Those differences at base iso can be very difficult to measure and compare while invariance exaggerates the difference and makes it easier to compare trends across brands and models. If that isn’t helpful to you that’s fine. Others reading this may or may not get some benefit. YMMV.


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## lawny13 (Jun 21, 2020)

Hmmm... funny. The post states that two lenses are missing and thus perhaps it means they will ship later.

But I noticed that there are 5 bodies there. The R, RP, R5, R6 and.... ???

Or is canon just filling up the space in the picture?


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## Ozarker (Jun 21, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> Hmmm... funny. The post states that two lenses are missing and thus perhaps it means they will ship later.
> 
> But I noticed that there are 5 bodies there. The R, RP, R5, R6 and.... ???
> 
> Or is canon just filling up the space in the picture?







__





Canon U.S.A., Inc. | EOS Ra


Capture the intricacies of a starry night sky with the new EOS Ra camera - Canon's first full-frame mirrorless camera dedicated to deep sky and night sky photography.




www.usa.canon.com


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## raptor3x (Jun 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Nobody said it is impossible. Nobody. What we are saying is that it is impracticable for most situations.



This is exactly what Aussie was suggesting.



Aussie shooter said:


> You are not shooting at 1/400 on an 800mm lens. Even with a tripod you would get soft images 90% of the time. In rrality 1/800sec is the minumum. So you would then be looking at ISO 10000



The idea that you'll get 90% soft images at 800mm and 1/400s with a modern IS + IBIS system is absurd.



CanonFanBoy said:


> When you mention an equivalency between f/7.1 and f/14, the equivalency is the DOF (I believe), not the amount of light let in. My f/2.8 on my m43 lens lets in the same light as f/2.8 on a FF lens. Same exposure settings for the same scene.
> 
> 
> Exposure: m43 F4 = FF F4 (same ISO and shutter)



This is only because ISO is defined in a way to make it appear consistent to the user. In reality, your m43 camera is applying roughly twice the amount of gain to produce the same exposure brightness as your FF camera. m43 sensors aren't noiser at corresponding ISO settings because the sensors are somehow worse, they're noisier because what's labeled ISO 200 on a m43 is, for the most part, the same as ISO 800 on a FF camera.



CanonFanBoy said:


> BTW: I see nothing in the exif indicating that HHHR mode was used. I'm simply giving the benefit of the doubt to be friendly.



The picture comes from here. The original poster is comparing the .ORI (single image) vs the .ORF (HHHR composite).



CanonFanBoy said:


> I certainly do not believe the bird sat completely still for as long as you say for that mode to have been used. If you say the bird sat still for 16 shots at 1/40 sec, then okay. I don't see that. I am seeing a single shot. HHHR mode is for static subjects.



That's the whole point though, your gut feeling is that there's no way that a bird can be still enough for such a long exposure but the fact that HHHR can produce a clean image with at least some improvement in resolution over the single shot suggests that your assumption is incorrect. I know I've personally used it with larger animals and people with reasonable success.

EDIT: Just adding some bird shots I just took to demonstrate my point. These are at 560mm equivalent and 1/15s and 1/30s. Be warned, I'm not a bird photography person so the pictures themselves are not good but I think it demonstrates that you can get feather detail sharp images of small birds at slow shutter speeds even while they're active, you just have to time the shots to when the birds momentarily pause. Would I attempt this if I knew I needed the get "the shot"? Heck no. But if I just needed to get "a shot" then it's a valid option. Plus, if a knucklehead like me can pull it off within 5 minutes of trying it and minimal experience with birds then someone more interested should be able to take it much further.

EDIT2: CR seems to be stripping the exif data out of these. I'd be happy to provide RAWs if anyone cares.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 21, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> This is exactly what Aussie was suggesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Aussie is correct on all counts. The images are too soft for my taste. They may be acceptable to someone else. The thing is, I am not interested in what someone else thinks is acceptable to them. I need acceptable to me. Don't you understand that?

My "gut feeling" has nothing to do with it. I talk from personal experience with both FF and M43. I own both, for years. Do you?

Here's the thing, we are talking about FF sensors with FF lenses. We are not talking about M43 sensors. We are not talking about M43 lenses. Why you insist on even bringing this into the conversation is a mystery to me... unless, of course, you are trying to be an ambassador for Olympus. Look at my signature. I own both FF and an Olympus. I know exactly what the capabilities are. I even have a 400mm FF lens I have put on the Olympus. It's widest aperture is f/6.3.

The fact of the matter is that a M43 sensor cannot compete in low light situations. I know this for a fact because I often shoot indoors where I live. My FF shots are always cleaner at the same equivalent focal lengths in the same exact lighting. So why you want to argue otherwise is, again, a mystery. Do you insist that I must agree with you? I do not. You also bring into the conversation a camera that almost none of us here have. Why? If I were to use a FF lens at 600mm or 800mm f/11 I certainly would not choose my Olympus for the task of shooting birds in the shade or the dark woods. That's just me. You want to? That's your choice. Unacceptable to me. I can't even stand the images in my own apartment at short focal lengths, compared to FF.

I don't have the patience for taking 100 shots and getting a 10% keeper rate when a bird decides to play statue. That would not be my idea of fun at all.


----------



## slclick (Jun 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was tackled very early on in the thread, it's funny how some just jump right in...but hey, at least they avoided the tariff and taxation maths.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> This was tackled very early on in the thread, it's funny how some just jump right in...but hey, at least they avoided the tariff and taxation maths.


I'm always ready to pile on.  Especially if I haven't had my medicine yet. Oops, I'm exactly an hour late. 5:20 CST.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jun 21, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> I think you're going to pleasantly surprised here. Sure, if you have moving wildlife that all goes out the window, but for things like perched birds or animals at rest then you can go pretty low with shutterspeed. In the m43 world, you get people shooting at 800mm EFL at shutter speeds of around 1/10s pretty regularly and 1200mm at 1/20s.


Perched birds still move. A flick of the head requires a 1/500 shutter speed to freeze. So yes. You MIGHT get the shot. And you will miss 9 out of 10 because of those tiny movements


----------



## slclick (Jun 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'm always ready to pile on.  Especially if I haven't had my medicine yet. Oops, I'm exactly an hour late. 5:20 CST.


You were right on schedule for my time zone (out)


----------



## raptor3x (Jun 21, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> And Aussie is correct on all counts. The images are too soft for my taste. They may be acceptable to someone else. The thing is, I am not interested in what someone else thinks is acceptable to them. I need acceptable to me. Don't you understand that?



The first one is a touch soft because it's at f/11 which is well into diffraction territory for m43; if you think the second one is soft for a 100% crop then you're delusional. Further, there's zero motion blur in either of them; Aussie's claim about not being able to shoot 800mm below 1/500s is complete nonsense.



CanonFanBoy said:


> My "gut feeling" has nothing to do with it. I talk from personal experience with both FF and M43. I own both, for years. Do you?



Yes, I shot 1- and 5-series bodies for years before even touching a m43 camera. I only shoot m43 now because most of my photography involves shoot why hiking and skiing so FF makes less sense.



CanonFanBoy said:


> Here's the thing, we are talking about FF sensors with FF lenses. We are not talking about M43 sensors. We are not talking about M43 lenses. Why you insist on even bringing this into the conversation is a mystery to me... unless, of course, you are trying to be an ambassador for Olympus. Look at my signature. I own both FF and an Olympus. I know exactly what the capabilities are. I even have a 400mm FF lens I have put on the Olympus. It's widest aperture is f/6.3.



The m43 cameras are relevant because the closest thing on the market to these new lenses, the 600mm and 800mm f/11 primes, are what we have in m43. In addition, m43 is currently the best example of what can be accomplished with a dual IS + IBIS system. The earlier rumors claimed that the new Canon bodies would have similar performance to what we're seeing from the m43 systems, 7-8EV of stabilization.



CanonFanBoy said:


> The fact of the matter is that a M43 sensor cannot compete in low light situations. I know this for a fact because I often shoot indoors where I live. My FF shots are always cleaner at the same equivalent focal lengths in the same exact lighting. So why you want to argue otherwise is, again, a mystery.



I never claimed that they were competitive, but please keep pounding on those strawmen. All I'm addressing are the absurd claims by you and Aussie about the new lenses from Canon.



CanonFanBoy said:


> Do you insist that I must agree with you?



Not at all, you're the type to stick his fingers in his ears and go "Nananana I can't hear you". I'm just trying to provide some actual information to counter the nonsense you two are putting out there.



CanonFanBoy said:


> I do not. You also bring into the conversation a camera that almost none of us here have. Why? If I were to use a FF lens at 600mm or 800mm f/11 I certainly would not choose my Olympus for the task of shooting birds in the shade or the dark woods. That's just me. You want to? That's your choice. Unacceptable to me. I can't even stand the images in my own apartment at short focal lengths compared to FF.



Like I said before, I'm bringing up m43 because it's the closest analogy we currently have to these new f/11 lenses if I needed to get "the shot" in those situations these setups are still far from ideal, sometimes "there's no replacement for displacement". It's just that they can the "a shot" if you have the patience. I think the vast majority are more likely to go for "a shot" and save $10K or so.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 21, 2020)

David_E said:


> *Ouch! Here **are** the Canon EOS R5 and **the** Canon EOS R6...*


   You couldn't just talk about DR or taxes? Trying to talk about dialects now?


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 21, 2020)

slclick said:


> You were right on schedule for my time zone (out)


Adjusted now. Please excuse me a moment while I "ignore" the jack wagon. On Hawaii time now.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jun 21, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> This is exactly what Aussie was suggesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could post similar images shot at similar shutter speeds. and they are sharp. I could also post 10 others from a sequence that are not sharp because of animal movement. IBIS and/or lens stabilization will not stop blurring with fast, minute animal movements. it just won't. So. As I said. IF you are happy at getting one in ten shots sharp then fine. But that means you have a much smaller chance of that one shot being THE shot. Because those tiny movements the animal makes are what puts it features in the best position to make the image. So no. NOBODY said it was impossible. A 10%chance by definition is NOT impossible. It is impractical


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## raptor3x (Jun 21, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> I could post similar images shot at similar shutter speeds. and they are sharp. I could also post 10 others from a sequence that are not sharp because of animal movement. IBIS and/or lens stabilization will not stop blurring with fast, minute animal movements. it just won't. So. As I said. IF you are happy at getting one in ten shots sharp then fine. But that means you have a much smaller chance of that one shot being THE shot.



For the most part I agree with you 100% here, it's the difference between getting "a shot" and "the shot". It's the same with shooting sports, if you just need to get "a shot" most sports can be shot with entry level gear, but if you need to know you'll be able to capture a specific moment then you generally actually need the higher end gear. These new lenses are clearly targeted at the market that's just going for "a shot" and I suspect they'll be extremely well received by that group.



Aussie shooter said:


> Because those tiny movements the animal makes are what puts it features in the best position to make the image. So no. NOBODY said it was impossible. A 10%chance by definition is NOT impossible. It is impractical



To clarify, you're previous claim was a very different statement.



Aussie shooter said:


> You are not shooting at 1/400 on an 800mm lens. Even with a tripod you would get soft images 90% of the time. In rrality 1/800sec is the minumum.



Shooting an 800mm lens at 1/400s, and much lower, with modern stabilization systems is trivial; especially once you start using electronic shutters to eliminate mechanically induced vibrations. Look at how stabilization success drop off with shutter speed; if we were only getting 10% sharp on a tripod like you claim then getting 1/10-1/20s handheld would indeed be effectively impossible.


----------



## David_E (Jun 22, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> _You couldn't just talk about DR or taxes? Trying to talk about dialects now?_


Like everyone else here, I don't know the camera's dynamic range, so I couldn't talk about that. Sales and other taxes in the USA are too low to be of note, so I didn't feel that taxes were worth discussing. So I talked about what I know: grammar (not "dialect"). Believe me, I am very liberal on grammar, and especially on those typographical errors which might _appear_ to be grammar errors, but are not. But when an error is so egregious that it nearly blinds me, I sometimes feel constrained to mention it. Especially when it's in bold type in a headline.


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 22, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> For the most part I agree with you 100% here, it's the difference between getting "a shot" and "the shot". It's the same with shooting sports, if you just need to get "a shot" most sports can be shot with entry level gear, but if you need to know you'll be able to capture a specific moment then you generally actually need the higher end gear. These new lenses are clearly targeted at the market that's just going for "a shot" and I suspect they'll be extremely well received by that group.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The reference to 1/800 being the minimum is to freeze the animal movement. So my previous comment wasn't very different. I still expressed the same sentiments. 90% miss rate(defining missed as softness induced by animal movement), 10%success rate(the rare times when an animal is PERFECTLY still). Not once did I say you will NEVER get a decent shot at low shutter speeds(in my opinion for wildlife using a telephoto lens anything below 1/800 is slow and anything below 1/400 is VERY slow unless you are intentionally trying to achieve some blur in the shot). I just said it becomes very difficult to get a good shot and most will not be acceptable or at least will require a reason other than sharpness to be considered acceptable but as my main points have been to do with sharpness I have avoided going in the other direction. I agree if you are just after any shot then absolutely you can shoot at slower speeds but are the people who are just after ANY shot really going to fork out 2-3k for an 800prime when they could get a third party 150-600 for half the price that delivers 10 times the versatility?(that last bit obviously being a reference to the new super teles on offer). And if you do have the option to bump the ISO a bit and drop open up the apatuer then why would you shoot at 1/50?


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## slclick (Jun 22, 2020)

It had the looks to attract many hipster girl photographers half my age, and who's to say it didn't I mean I am quite the catch however no matter how much noise I make on the forum, the Pen F made much more. So glad I sold (and made a profit) from that little black rectangle. The sensor size is irrelevant when discussing FF bits. The aperture is meaningless. Don't try.Get those tiny photosites out of here stat.


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## scyrene (Jun 22, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Yes. You are not shooting at 1/400 on an 800mm lens. Even with a tripod you would get soft images 90% of the time. In rrality 1/800sec is the minumum. So you would then be looking at ISO 10000



Haven't we been through this on another thread? I haven't read all of this one so apologies to all if I'm going over old ground or missing the point. But - the old adage was 1/focal length. Then modern lens-based IS such as in the mark II big whites claimed (and my experience, and what tests I've seen done, agree) 4-5 stops better. So for an 800mm lens that's 1/50-1/30. Naturally that doesn't account for subject movement. I'd personally not want to shoot songbirds slower than ~1/200-160 and even then only in extremis. And higher res sensors demand faster shuter speeds if you want pixel-level sharpness. But all that being said, your 1/800 seems an arbitrary figure.

But if theory isn't going to sway you, then eyeballing the Canon EF 800mm f/5.6 group on Flickr is a useful way to see what shutter speeds are feasible at that focal length. Here's a bird at 1/125s

__
https://flic.kr/p/Sg2TcA
 one at 1/60

__
https://flic.kr/p/2jdj6Rv
 and here's one at 1/15

__
https://flic.kr/p/2i2t9aj
 - if we're just talking about shutter speeds; naturally they use different apertures, although the second is at f/10 so isn't far off what an 800mm f/11 could produce, though I expect the optical quality of the latter to be poorer, given the expected budget price.


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 22, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Haven't we been through this on another thread? I haven't read all of this one so apologies to all if I'm going over old ground or missing the point. But - the old adage was 1/focal length. Then modern lens-based IS such as in the mark II big whites claimed (and my experience, and what tests I've seen done, agree) 4-5 stops better. So for an 800mm lens that's 1/50-1/30. Naturally that doesn't account for subject movement. I'd personally not want to shoot songbirds slower than ~1/200-160 and even then only in extremis. And higher res sensors demand faster shuter speeds if you want pixel-level sharpness. But all that being said, your 1/800 seems an arbitrary figure.
> 
> But if theory isn't going to sway you, then eyeballing the Canon EF 800mm f/5.6 group on Flickr is a useful way to see what shutter speeds are feasible at that focal length. Here's a bird at 1/125s
> 
> ...


All accurate but animal movement is what we are referring to. As you said 1/200 is something you would only use in extremes. And yes. My 1/800 was somewhat arbitrary but it was a figure I generally go by as even at 1/500 I find most shots of small birds have some lack of sharpness caused by tiny imperceptable(to the eye) animal movement. Love both those shots by the way but especially the second one.


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## raptor3x (Jun 22, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> The reference to 1/800 being the minimum is to freeze the animal movement. So my previous comment wasn't very different. I still expressed the same sentiments. 90% miss rate(defining missed as softness induced by animal movement), 10%success rate(the rare times when an animal is PERFECTLY still). Not once did I say you will NEVER get a decent shot at low shutter speeds(in my opinion for wildlife using a telephoto lens anything below 1/800 is slow and anything below 1/400 is VERY slow unless you are intentionally trying to achieve some blur in the shot).



Again, I'm completely with you on this. I think the confusion happened here.



Aussie shooter said:


> You are not shooting at 1/400 on an 800mm lens. Even with a tripod you would get soft images 90% of the time. In rrality 1/800sec is the minumum.



If we're talking about subject movement here then the lens focal length and whether or not it's on a tripod are completely irrelevant. The statement reads like you're talking about motion blur due to camera shake. Fair enough though if you meant subject motion.



Aussie shooter said:


> I just said it becomes very difficult to get a good shot and most will not be acceptable or at least will require a reason other than sharpness to be considered acceptable but as my main points have been to do with sharpness I have avoided going in the other direction. I agree if you are just after any shot then absolutely you can shoot at slower speeds but are the people who are just after ANY shot really going to fork out 2-3k for an 800prime when they could get a third party 150-600 for half the price that delivers 10 times the versatility?(that last bit obviously being a reference to the new super teles on offer). And if you do have the option to bump the ISO a bit and drop open up the apatuer then why would you shoot at 1/50?



It will be really interested to see how much these lenses cost, how sharp they are, and how much they weigh. If they're a combination of two from: incredibly sharp, very lightweight, sub-$2K; then I can still see them being extremely popular.


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## Ozarker (Jun 22, 2020)

David_E said:


> Like everyone else here, I don't know the camera's dynamic range, so I couldn't talk about that. Sales and other taxes in the USA are too low to be of note, so I didn't feel that taxes were worth discussing. So I talked about what I know: grammar (not "dialect"). Believe me, I am very liberal on grammar, and especially on those typographical errors which might _appear_ to be grammar errors, but are not. But when an error is so egregious that it nearly blinds me, I sometimes feel constrained to mention it. Especially when it's in bold type in a headline.


What's "proper" can vary be region, English classes aside.  Things are pretty casual around here. I do understand the obsession though.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jun 22, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> Again, I'm completely with you on this. I think the confusion happened here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok. Took a while but we nutted it out. It's always the problem with forums or social media. No one ever writes a 3 page essay at the start to alleviate the confusion. We know in our own heads what we mean but 5 or 6 sentences are rarely enough to clarify things.


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## David - Sydney (Jun 22, 2020)

Traveler said:


> My poor English
> I meant that they’ve been doing both. They’ve released only the most used lenses for professionals (holy trinity, 85 f/1.2, 50/1.2 and 24-105) which makes sense – we want the most used lenses to be native.
> But they’ve been also releasing completely new designs instead of producing those “middle-used” lenses such as macro, fish eyes, f/4’s etc. We can use those with adapters and canon can focus on something more interesting to attract new people or to give us something new.
> I don’t even think that the fast long lenses should be a priority now. They’re long and expensive anyway so the adaptor doesn’t make a significant difference in terms of size or price.


The only issue with not having native big whites is the strength of the adaptor and especially if TCs are used. Using the adaptor can be an advantage with CPL/ND options of course. Having RF:EF TCs makes sense to me to avoid this issue of double stacking.


----------



## vjlex (Jun 22, 2020)

David_E said:


> *Ouch! Here are the Canon EOS R5 and the Canon EOS R6...*





David_E said:


> So I talked about what I know: grammar (not "dialect"). Believe me, I am very liberal on grammar, and especially on those typographical errors which might _appear_ to be grammar errors, but are not. But when an error is so egregious that it nearly blinds me, I sometimes feel constrained to mention it. Especially when it's in bold type in a headline.



Egregious? What are you talking about? There is nothing wrong with the grammar in the title.


*Rule 1: There Is*

When the first noun in the series is *singular* or *non-count*, use _there is_.


There is a book and a pen in my bag.
There is a computer, a whiteboard, and an overhead projector in the classroom.









There Is/There Are + Nouns in a Series


Do your students know when to use "there is" or "there are" when followed by more than one noun? Our editor has teaching tips for this confusing grammar point.




esllibrary.com






*There Is vs. There Are With a Series of Items

When you’re making a list of things, sometimes there are sounds wrong:*


There are a kitchen, a living room, and a bedroom in my apartment.
*
There are sounds bad because the noun that follows it, kitchen, is singular. Even though you’re really talking about multiple things, (a kitchen, a living room, a bedroom), it’s often better to use the singular verb is in a construction like this.
*
There is a kitchen, a living room, and a bedroom in my apartment.
*
Some language commentators still insist on using are in sentences like this despite the awkwardness, but actual usage is extremely mixed.*










There Is vs. There Are: How to Choose?


The choice between the phrases there is and there are at the beginning of a…




www.grammarly.com


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 22, 2020)

Steve Balcombe said:


> You keep saying this, but they were pre-announced by Canon, and they are on various Canon web sites, with pictures. They are RF Extenders, not adapters. Easy to find with just the minimum of effort.


I do because there is nothing to confirm that it isn't and there are reasonable reasons to say that they are RF:EF.
You say that they were pre-announced and they were as RF extenders. The size does appear to be the same as current extenders but there is nothing that I can see to say that the optics are the same as current TCs but with a RF mount. It could be possible that the optics are different. I can't find a cut-through picture of the current TC showing the lens within the mount. Is there a patent for an optical formula that is different to the current TCs?
Can you say what lens these RF extenders will be used on? 100-500mm is the logical possibility but the max aperture is roughly the same as the 600/800mm f11 lens so potentially it would compete with them rather than selling more lenses.
I'm happy to be wrong but it doesn't make sense for what they will be used for. It would be more obvious if they were released at the same time as a 300/500mm big white.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 22, 2020)

RobbieHat said:


> I wasn’t aware that they might be able to swap out the end plate on those vIIIs for RF active communications. That’s pretty cool. Might have to upgrade my vII 600 f4 if that proves to be the easiest approach. That would make the RF to RF extenders usable with no additional adapter. That would be worth it.


That is an interesting approach... not the release of new lenses but announce a program where Canon can retrofit big whites for RF mount. That would make sense to go with new RF:RF TCs. Bundling in a control ring and maybe a drop in filter for CPL would be very flexible.
I don't have a 1Dx but this approach would be all-in. Either stay with existing EF big whites and use RF adapter and EF TCs for R5 as second body, or go native with RF all the way.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jun 22, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I understand what it’s measuring. I also understand that there is a very strong correlation between iso invariance and noise performance including at base iso. Those differences at base iso can be very difficult to measure and compare while invariance exaggerates the difference and makes it easier to compare trends across brands and models. If that isn’t helpful to you that’s fine. Others reading this may or may not get some benefit. YMMV.



'Correlation is not causation'. How exactly do you compare, using those graphs, different brands and camera models? In the graphs, they're basically all 0 at the base ISO. 

How do we tell the difference, say, just by looking at this graph? Does 5DIV perform roughly the same as GFX100?

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Cha...ujiFilm GFX 100,Sony ILCE-7RM3,Sony ILCE-7RM4


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jun 22, 2020)

shunsai said:


> Egregious? What are you talking about? There is nothing wrong with the grammar in the title.
> 
> 
> *Rule 1: There Is*


Yeah. But the title says '*here* is...'


----------



## Kit. (Jun 22, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Perched birds still move. A flick of the head requires a 1/500 shutter speed to freeze. So yes. You MIGHT get the shot. And you will miss 9 out of 10 because of those tiny movements


But at 20 fps, that might still be ok.


----------



## koenkooi (Jun 22, 2020)

Kit. said:


> But at 20 fps, that might still be ok.



That 20fps e-shutter combined with IBIS+IS working together makes me very curious on what the useable low end of shutters speeds will be for static subjects.
I really hope Canon will be adding the f/11 lenses to the R5 review bundle they send out to reviewers and brand ambassadors.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jun 22, 2020)

Kit. said:


> But at 20 fps, that might still be ok.


Well. Yes. In theory even at 10%keeper rate you would get 2 keepers per second. Unfortunately since slave labor is something we dont employ you will have to trawl through all the images yourself to find the good ones. I think I'll bump the ISO and accept a bit of noise and less shots


----------



## SUNDOG04 (Jun 22, 2020)

Many birds will pose motionless, especially herons and egrets. Here in the U.S., warblers are a colorful and constantly moving/feeding group of birds. You need a fast shutter speed for them. I don’t own a super-telephoto...can’t afford it and to carry the Lens, it is owning you. That said, I would love to have one. It. looking forward to see how these new lenses work out. One way or another, lenses are almost always a compromise.


----------



## canonmike (Jun 22, 2020)

Roy Hunte said:


> I highly doubt that will get a black Friday markdown so early


I concur and expect both R5 and R6 to still be in short supply during Black Fri sales, with no bargains to be had....on the other hand, we might see some real bargains on the R and RP and a few of the RF lenses, as well as the 5D iv bodies, with prices on latter quite possibly coming in around the $15-1600.00 dollar mark at the big box stores.


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## Kit. (Jun 22, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Well. Yes. In theory even at 10%keeper rate you would get 2 keepers per second. Unfortunately since slave labor is something we dont employ you will have to trawl through all the images yourself to find the good ones. I think I'll bump the ISO and accept a bit of noise and less shots


I've actually thought of using a computer as a slave to pre-mark unsharp images for me in Lightroom.


----------



## AEWest (Jun 22, 2020)

shunsai said:


> Egregious? What are you talking about? There is nothing wrong with the grammar in the title.
> 
> 
> *Rule 1: There Is*
> ...


Come on Canon, release the cameras early! We are getting so desperate that we now have grammar lessons on this forum! We need your help!


----------



## Max TT (Jun 22, 2020)

shunsai said:


> Egregious? What are you talking about? There is nothing wrong with the grammar in the title.
> 
> 
> *Rule 1: There Is*
> ...



Which is it? 

There is a bunch of pathetic losers on this forum? 
Or
There are a bunch of pathetic losers on this forum?


----------



## slclick (Jun 22, 2020)

Max C said:


> Which is it?
> 
> There is a bunch of pathetic losers on this forum?
> Or
> There are a bunch of pathetic losers on this forum?


The only way to know for certain is to restart the sensor maths thread in regards to 8k. Perhaps the M43 as well, combine them please for all I care. I'll be riding my bike.


----------



## Max TT (Jun 22, 2020)

slclick said:


> The only way to know for certain is to restart the sensor maths thread in regards to 8k. Perhaps the M43 as well, combine them please for all I care. I'll be riding my bike.



Yes yes I think I shall go for a ride as well if the sahara dust eases up, or it shall be another zwift session


----------



## WriteLight (Jun 22, 2020)

Politics, amirite, folks?


----------



## SteveC (Jun 22, 2020)

WriteLight said:


> Politics, amirite, folks?



One of those words that illustrates the importance of knowing Ancient Greek, because we borrow so many words from it:

"Poly" means "many"

And ticks are bloodsucking arthropods.

See, that's all you need to know about "politics."


----------



## vjlex (Jun 22, 2020)

AEWest said:


> Come on Canon, release the cameras early! We are getting so desperate that we now have grammar lessons on this forum! We need your help!


Yes, please! I can't take anymore discussions of local taxation laws!


----------



## vjlex (Jun 22, 2020)

Max C said:


> Which is it?
> 
> There is a bunch of pathetic losers on this forum?
> Or
> There are a bunch of pathetic losers on this forum?


Good question.  Let's ask the expert @David_E!


----------



## Yasko (Jun 22, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> 'The EOS R5 won’t begin shipping until September'
> 
> Does that mean the R5 beats the 1DX as the longest development to availability camera?



Corona vibes. Just wait ^^


----------



## ritholtz (Jun 23, 2020)

wtlloyd said:


> September! Guess I will keep on buying stocks until then!


Stock seems to be stuck at same level. Does it move on announcement day. Are you going to keep it long term. May be these new offerings improve earnings goings forward.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jun 23, 2020)

Well, the cause of this change is not ideal (COVID-19 & Blown economy) but in the UK VAT (sales tax in the US) may be reduced to 15 or 17% to stimulate the economy, making the R5 a little more affordable. It would be rude not to??


----------



## Shaun Gibbs (Jun 23, 2020)

I hope I live until the 10th of July.


----------



## Max TT (Jun 23, 2020)

Well for me I am in a serious situation. 

Because borders are closed to normal travel, I will have to purchase the the EOS R6 online at B&H and ship it to my country. Incurring an additional $918 us dollars in import duty and local tax. So if the R6 is $2500, my cost will be $3418.

I will have to wait for borders to reopen, so I can get someone to bring it in their luggage, to avoid the ridiculous duty and taxes. 

Who knows when that will be ;(


----------



## jedy (Jun 23, 2020)

Max C said:


> Well for me I am in a serious situation.
> 
> Because borders are closed to normal travel, I will have to purchase the the EOS R6 online at B&H and ship it to my country. Incurring an additional $918 us dollars in import duty and local tax. So if the R6 is $2500, my cost will be $3418.
> 
> ...


Good job you’re not a desperate gearhead who can afford to wait to buy it at a reasonable price


----------



## usern4cr (Jun 23, 2020)

Out of curiosity I just looked at the Sony Alpha rumor site. This was their news:
"RUMOR: Sony A7sIII official announcement after the EOS-R5 launch" 
Now I don't revel in bashing Sony, but anyone reading their comments about the (again) postponed announcement of the A7s3 will probably understand their frustration, where there were more positive comments about Canon than I thought possible. It seems to me that Sony knows the A7S3 can't compete on ability with the R5(or R6 price), so all they can do is see what Canon's pricing is so that they can try to compete with a lesser price. I guess this will make a lot of the Canon rumors people smile.


----------



## Max TT (Jun 23, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Out of curiosity I just looked at the Sony Alpha rumor site. This was their news:
> "RUMOR: Sony A7sIII official announcement after the EOS-R5 launch"
> Now I don't revel in bashing Sony, but anyone reading their comments about the (again) postponed announcement of the A7s3 will probably understand their frustration, where there were more positive comments about Canon than I thought possible. It seems to me that Sony knows the A7S3 can't compete on ability with the R5(or R6 price), so all they can do is see what Canon's pricing is so that they can try to compete with a lesser price. I guess this will make a lot of the Canon rumors people smile.



They had the best selling camera in the A7III for a long time... So it would make sense that they dragged their feet on introducing a new body, when there wasn't any real competition. But now with R5 and R6, they will have to update themselves. 

Unfortunately for them, as long as they have that outdated EMount design, they wont be able to match the Canon system of body and lense. IMO of course


----------



## DBounce (Jun 23, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Out of curiosity I just looked at the Sony Alpha rumor site. This was their news:
> "RUMOR: Sony A7sIII official announcement after the EOS-R5 launch"
> Now I don't revel in bashing Sony, but anyone reading their comments about the (again) postponed announcement of the A7s3 will probably understand their frustration, where there were more positive comments about Canon than I thought possible. It seems to me that Sony knows the A7S3 can't compete on ability with the R5(or R6 price), so all they can do is see what Canon's pricing is so that they can try to compete with a lesser price. I guess this will make a lot of the Canon rumors people smile.



They have been predicting an successor to the A7S2 for years. But the truth is the A7S2 did not sell well enough, so Sony will likely not release a follow up.


----------



## DBounce (Jun 23, 2020)

Max C said:


> They had the best selling camera in the A7III for a long time... So it would make sense that they dragged their feet on introducing a new body, when there wasn't any real competition. But now with R5 and R6, they will have to update themselves.
> 
> Unfortunately for them, as long as they have that outdated EMount design, they wont be able to match the Canon system of body and lense. IMO of course



It's IBIS that is hurt by the tiny E-Mount.


----------



## Max TT (Jun 23, 2020)

DBounce said:


> It's IBIS that is hurt by the tiny E-Mount.



Width and flange distance too


----------



## TAF (Jun 23, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Out of curiosity I just looked at the Sony Alpha rumor site. This was their news:
> "RUMOR: Sony A7sIII official announcement after the EOS-R5 launch"
> Now I don't revel in bashing Sony, but anyone reading their comments about the (again) postponed announcement of the A7s3 will probably understand their frustration, where there were more positive comments about Canon than I thought possible. It seems to me that Sony knows the A7S3 can't compete on ability with the R5(or R6 price), so all they can do is see what Canon's pricing is so that they can try to compete with a lesser price. I guess this will make a lot of the Canon rumors people smile.



Ah, so it is true. Sony posters whine about Sony and praise Canon, while over here Canon posters whine about Canon and praise Sony.

Sort of like Chevy and Ford owners...


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## highdesertmesa (Jun 23, 2020)

Wouldn't it be something if the R5/6 are a joint effort with Sony to exchange sensor tech for RF mount licensing? And all new Sony bodies would be RF mount, and Sony could move away from the restrictive E-mount without having to make a single lens. Minds blown.

The Zeiss-like sharpness and wide open bokeh character of the RF L lenses has had me suspicious for a while now of some sort of Canon/Sony/Zeiss alliance.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jun 23, 2020)

Reading some of the comments at SARS, it's curious. It's being painted as if the R5 is its competition. As far as I know, the A7SIII is succeeding a low megapixel, lowlight beast making it ideal for video. So, that has nothing on the R5. It's real competitor is more likely the R6. Maybe that's what Sony's real concern is. They have nothing that can compete with the R5... really, no camera manufacturer can at this point. The R6 in that A7S series market is what they have to worry about when it comes to pricing it competitively. It will be interesting to see how it matches up against the R6 when it comes to specs. I know Sony users have been asking for 10 bit 4:2:2 and 4K60 for a long time, which the R6 will have.

It does make me feel kinda fuzzy knowing that the probable reality is Sony is gunning for Canon's 2nd best camera.


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## Joules (Jun 23, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Wouldn't it be something if the R5/6 are a joint effort with Sony to exchange sensor tech for RF mount licensing? And all new Sony bodies would be RF mount, and Sony could move away from the restrictive E-mount without having to make a single lens. Minds blown.
> 
> The Zeiss-like sharpness and wide open bokeh character of the RF L lenses has had me suspicious for a while now of some sort of Canon/Sony/Zeiss alliance.


That is some fun speculation. But it has a sprinkle too much Harry in it for me  

There is nothing that Canon needs Sony for in terms of sensor tech. Despite the Dual Pixel design they have now matched Sony in DR, exceeded it in throughput and in terms of Color they were always ahead anyway. Once they decide to make more use of the two photo diodes per Pixel they can crush Sony in terms of DR as demonstrated in the C300 III and to a lesser degree, DPRAW with custom software. Sure there is the stacked sensor. But Canon is all about keeping costs low. And so far stacked sensor designs aren't about that at all. 

In any case, they won't give up DPAF after slowly building up a reputation around it for so long.

And in terms of lenses, that has always been Canon's strength. Part of that certainly was their superior mount, but they have had a reputation for excellent lenses far back. And their new mount is just EF with a shorter flange distance, removing even more restrictions for the designers.


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## iheartcanon (Jun 23, 2020)

I remember using my 5DmkIV for the first time at 120fps and being pretty disappointed. Only 720p and no AF made it not much fun for me to play around with. 
So with the R5 confirmed to have 4K at 120fps without a crop and with DPAF has me very excited!

I am very curious what it will do in 1080p which is what I would likely use anyway.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 24, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> They have nothing that can compete with the R5...


Sony A7rIV


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jun 24, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Sony A7rIV


lol


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jun 24, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Sony A7rIV



– Will be eclipsed by the the R5s/R5sR ultra-high res model.

In the meantime, if I had an A7R4, I would "downgrade" to the R5 45mp just to gain access to the RF lenses.


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## slclick (Jun 24, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> lol


Tolhurst


----------



## highdesertmesa (Jun 24, 2020)

Joules said:


> That is some fun speculation. But it has a sprinkle too much Harry in it for me
> 
> There is nothing that Canon needs Sony for in terms of sensor tech. Despite the Dual Pixel design they have now matched Sony in DR, exceeded it in throughput and in terms of Color they were always ahead anyway. Once they decide to make more use of the two photo diodes per Pixel they can crush Sony in terms of DR as demonstrated in the C300 III and to a lesser degree, DPRAW with custom software. Sure there is the stacked sensor. But Canon is all about keeping costs low. And so far stacked sensor designs aren't about that at all.
> 
> ...



Agree with all of this. If Canon put the same energy into the R5/6 DR and color depth as they did into the video specs, Sony is dooooomed


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## BakaBokeh (Jun 24, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> – Will be eclipsed by the the R5s/R5sR ultra-high res model.
> 
> In the meantime, if I had an A7R4, I would "downgrade" to the R5 45mp just to gain access to the RF lenses.


I'm a hybrid shooter. So if I had a A7R4, I would be downgrading from Sony's superior 8 bit 4.2.0 internal recording to Canon's crappy 10 bit 4.2.2. I would be sacrificing the glorious Sony 4K30p for the Canon's crippled no crop up to 8K30p or 4K120p with working autofocus in all modes. 

All jokes aside, the Sony is what I'd consider a great high resolution photography camera with some video capabilities thrown in. I suppose if resolution was your priority, the Sony is what you'd consider first. By every other metric the R5 equals or leaves it in the dust.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 24, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> – Will be eclipsed by the the R5s/R5sR ultra-high res model.


The point was about a competitor to the R5. The R5 is at least announced by Canon.



highdesertmesa said:


> In the meantime, if I had an A7R4, I would "downgrade" to the R5 45mp just to gain access to the RF lenses.



I wouldn't. I'd have likely had a set of Sony lenses which aren't too bad and switching would have been too expensive to me.
Same with my current Canon lenses - they were holding me back from switching to Sony. Now with the R5, switching is even less practical.

Still the A7rIV is/will be a rival to the R5.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jun 24, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> All jokes aside, the Sony is what I'd consider a great high resolution photography camera with some video capabilities thrown in. I suppose if resolution was your priority, the Sony is what you'd consider first. By every other metric the R5 equals or leaves it in the dust.



Resolution and most likely dynamic range. I doubt Canon will do better in terms of the dynamic range.
There's a big overlap in usage scenarios between the R5 and the A7rIV, so they're rivals. Despite all the hype around 8K, very small percentage of R5 users will shoot 8K on regular basis.


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## BakaBokeh (Jun 24, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Resolution and most likely dynamic range. I doubt Canon will do better in terms of the dynamic range.
> There's a big overlap in usage scenarios between the R5 and the A7rIV, so they're rivals. Despite all the hype around 8K, very small percentage of R5 users will shoot 8K on regular basis.


4K120p will get a lot of play.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 24, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> 4K120p will get a lot of play.



Since 2016, I've had maybe 1 or 2 hours of video footage in total shot on my 5DIV. If your focus is videography, the R5 will obviously be superior to the A7rIV.
If your focus is photography, the answer will not be so obvious.


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## highdesertmesa (Jun 24, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> The point was about a competitor to the R5. The R5 is at least announced by Canon.



R5 is not the competitor to the A74, but the R5 will leave it with only resolution as an advantage.



> I wouldn't...



Which is why I said "if I", not "if you" 



> Still the A7rIV is/will be a rival to the R5.



Only if you see it that way. Like I said, the only advantage over the R5 will be the resolution. I see them in different classes, with the R5 below the A7R4. That's why I mentioned the R5s/R5sR, as it will be the resolution-based flagship for Canon just like the A7R4 is for Sony.


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## highdesertmesa (Jun 24, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> I'm a hybrid shooter. So if I had a A7R4, I would be downgrading from Sony's superior 8 bit 4.2.0 internal recording to Canon's crappy 10 bit 4.2.2. I would be sacrificing the glorious Sony 4K30p for the Canon's crippled no crop up to 8K30p or 4K120p with working autofocus in all modes.
> 
> All jokes aside, the Sony is what I'd consider a great high resolution photography camera with some video capabilities thrown in. I suppose if resolution was your priority, the Sony is what you'd consider first. By every other metric the R5 equals or leaves it in the dust.



Exactly.

The A7R4 is only an R5 competitor when it comes to mega-pickles.


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## highdesertmesa (Jun 24, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Resolution and most likely dynamic range. I doubt Canon will do better in terms of the dynamic range.
> ...



Let's revisit this after the announcement or after the first DR/noise tests. I think Canon is going to surprise us.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 24, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Only if you see it that way. Like I said, the only advantage over the R5 will be the resolution. I see them in different classes, with the R5 below the A7R4. That's why I mentioned the R5s/R5sR, as it will be the resolution-based flagship for Canon just like the A7R4 is for Sony.


Hmm I think they're the same class. Same market segment and (likely) similar price. A7rIII has some 42mp, is it a different class than its successor A7rIV?



highdesertmesa said:


> Let's revisit this after the announcement or after the first DR/noise tests. I think Canon is going to surprise us.



As in this thread above, DxOMark rated 1DxIII's sensor quite low which worries me a bit, but photonstophotos shows it in between the 5DIV and A7RIV.
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Cha... Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV,Sony ILCE-7RM4

My prediction is, the R5 performance will be around 1DXIII. Which will be great as I'm going to preorder it (if there's no surprises in its price tag). More realistically, it'll be close to 5DIV which will also be ok. There's no way it'll be better than A7rIV.
Actually I'm worried more about banding, hopefully they'll fix it. I've seen no complains on banding in 1DXIII, but the banding is still reported in the R.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Jun 24, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Hmm I think they're the same class. Same market segment and (likely) similar price. A7rIII has some 42mp, is it a different class than its successor A7rIV?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The dynamic range of the 5div has been very adequate for my use as a fashion photographer, but perhaps landscape buffs will desire something more. If the R5 can surpass the R, then I will be happy enough to order one too..


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## drama (Jun 24, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> – Will be eclipsed by the the R5s/R5sR ultra-high res model.
> 
> In the meantime, if I had an A7R4, I would "downgrade" to the R5 45mp just to gain access to the RF lenses.



That's how Canon have historically always got people. The camera is irrelevant, the glass is forever. I can't wait to get the RF glass. Having played with it a bit, the control ring especially is a welcome addition, and the image quality is mind blowing. The rate they're pumping out lenses too, Canon know it. Reading between the lines, if they're confident in putting 8K into their stills cameras, the quality is there. It also makes you wonder what the eventual RF film cameras will be capable of.


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## stevensteven (Jun 24, 2020)

I switched a few months ago from the 1DXmkII to the A7RIV. 
I'm primarily a video shooter (although hybrid) and I find the results I get with the A7RIV to be superior to the 1DX. Now with the announcement of the EOS R5, I feel like I want to get back to Canon, but there are two things that the Sony do for me that I'm afraid the EOSR5 won't. 

1. First, the size of the lenses. I shoot with a 24GM1.4, 35FE1.8 and 85FE1.8. They are so small compared to their EF/RF equivalent that's it makes it a pleasure to go out and shoot with. But that, I could overcome considering the superior quality of the RF lenses (it's my opinion). 

2. The second thing is something that will make it very difficult for me to come back to Canon: it's the autofocus motor noise in video. I don't like to use an extra mic. The audio of the camera is enough for what I do. With the Sony lenses, its completely silent! with the canon, it's noisy that it makes it unusable. For me that's a real issue, and probably the only reason why I'm not selling all my Sony gear on eBay ahead of the R5 release.....


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## Kit. (Jun 24, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Sony A7rIV


Well, then EOS R6 will be a competitor too.


----------



## The Fat Fish (Jun 24, 2020)

The R6 only being 20mp is so frustrating. I have been waiting nearly 8 years for a meaningful 6D upgrade and even in 2020, it looks unlikely. For an 3-4 year difference I would expect increased dynamic range, higher resolution, IBIS and good quality 4K video. Finally 8 years on Canon achieve most of it but 20mp isn't enough. I guess Canon spec a $2000 camera just short of what's expected in order to force buyers into buying their $4000 that "has it all".


----------



## lawny13 (Jun 24, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> http://[URL]https://www.usa.canon.c...slr-and-mirrorless-cameras/mirrorless/eos-ra/[/URL]


Ah yes... I know it exists but somehow I just didn't think about it like that. In my mind it is jut an R... well I lump it with it since it is essentially just a filter mod.


----------



## MadisonMike (Jun 24, 2020)

That lineup is quite impressive in such a short time.


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## Nelu (Jun 24, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Hmm I think they're the same class. Same market segment and (likely) similar price. A7rIII has some 42mp, is it a different class than its successor A7rIV?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm, I'm wondering where's the $2,500 price difference between the R5 and the 1DX Mark III coming from...Where are they taking shortcuts?
I mean, on paper at least, the R5 is better in almost every aspect.
It wouldn't affect me because I lost my patience waiting for the R5 and I got the 1D Mark III because I mostly shoot birds and BIF in particular.
I don't like it's just 20Mp; 45Mp would have been better but the AF is pretty solid. I would actually be surprised if R5 would be that good.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jun 24, 2020)

The Fat Fish said:


> The R6 only being 20mp is so frustrating. I have been waiting nearly 8 years for a meaningful 6D upgrade and even in 2020, it looks unlikely. For an 3-4 year difference I would expect increased dynamic range, higher resolution, IBIS and good quality 4K video. Finally 8 years on Canon achieve most of it but 20mp isn't enough. I guess Canon spec a $2000 camera just short of what's expected in order to force buyers into buying their $4000 that "has it all".


Just curious. What is your shooting style? You sound like a video shooter touting good 4K, but then say 20MP is not enough. It's enough for 4K, which is why I think it was the chosen sensor size. Guess it means you shoot photos if you need the increased resolution. Would you consider having an R for stills which has 30.3MP and the R6 for video? Budget, or the need to carry only 1 body are valid reasons.

Many can make do with 20MP for photos, but I understand if the workflow involves large format printing or heavy cropping why it wouldn't be enough.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 24, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> I don't see myself preordering the Canon R5 for September when Black Friday is only two months later.



I don't see any R5 discounts on Black Friday only two months after it is available. On Black Friday Canon tends to concentrate on consumer grade and prosumer grade gear, not pro stuff.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 24, 2020)

Whowe said:


> By the way, July 9 announcement date could mean late on July 8 for the U.S.



Or early July 10 for the Pacific Rim.


----------



## AEWest (Jun 24, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I don't see any R5 discounts on Black Friday only two months after it is available. On Black Friday Canon tends to concentrate on consumer grade and prosumer grade gear, not pro stuff.


I agree. However I do expect to see good Black Friday deals on the R body and R kit which may tempt some EF users into the RF ecosystem.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 24, 2020)

neurorx said:


> The only two things that have limited me is the 20 mp and really limited seeing samples of action wildlife and sports. I've seen some sports, but not the files to determine the sharpness. I was also curious to know how ISO performance was. It is really a tempting camera, but 6500 is a big investment. I've played with Sony mirrorless and I still am less of a fan of EVF. The a9ii is also tempting....



Lots of wildlife at this thread. Not much sports has happened in the last three+ months, so no one has much of it. Maybe find a NASCAR photo group.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 24, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> It seems to me the EF 70-300mm f4.5-5.6 DO IS wasn’t that far removed from these new f11 STM lenses and that had the green ring. Although it was a truly forgettable lens with terrible bokeh issues low contrast and a high price.



But you could beat the lens length rule for most venues to get into an event (sports/concert/etc.) with 300mm as a spectator.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 24, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> Question. For auditorium events / lighting.
> 
> I have the RF 24-240 f/4-6.3.
> Is a constant f/4 (on the new 70-200) enough of a benefit at the long end to justify adding it? Losing 40 mm and only gaining 1.3 stops at 200mm.
> ...



For 70-200mm I find I really need f/2.8 when shooting theatrical or musical performances (scholastic orchestra, concert band, etc.) in an auditorium. I can get by with f/4 for wider focal lengths (17-40mm or 24-105mm) where the movement of the subjects is not as noticeable at slower shutter durations.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 24, 2020)

padam said:


> The R5 might function just fine as a 7D2 replacement (for the time being), as the in-camera 1.6x crop mode it works just like any APS-C mirrorless camera would.



In camera 1.6X crop mode would be 17.5 MP, assuming the R5 is 44.9 MP.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 24, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Meanwhile, DxOMark released a review on 1dxIII sensor.
> 
> https://www.dxomark.com/canon-eos-1d-x-mark-iii-sensor-review/
> 
> ...






Chris.Chapterten said:


> Something must be amiss here... all other reports have the 1dx mark iii comparing much better against its rivals



Look at the DxO Mark measurements of the ISO settings on the 1D X Mark III. Something is seriously off there. The actual ISO at any full stop ISO is one stop higher than the 1D X Mark II or 5D Mark IV at the next higher full stop ISO setting! Cameras which are less sensitive than the selected ISO tend to get higher DxO Mark scores than other comparable cameras from the same generation with measurements closer to the actual ISO setting.

Most camera makers do this to protect the highlights due to the linear response of digital sensors as compared to the "shoulder" that film has near full saturation.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I currently have a 20MP sensor and can print really large prints with it - up to a yard wide looks beautiful (I do help by making the photo as good as possible in post). I email it off to WhiteWall in Germany and they ship it back for almost free. So don't sweat that, unless you crop really heavy (in which case the 30MP image will have somewhat similar issues). The R6 having IBIS alone is worth buying IMHO, plus you get everything else it offers, like a 5Mdot EVF and dual card slots! I'd say get the R6 and revel in the new beautiful camera. Or you could look for a used or gray market R for less $. One other option you have is to save up a bit more money and see what the R5s 85?MP sensor & cost is in maybe a year or less - it will probably be aimed more at landscape photography anyway.



Most landscape specialists use tripods. That makes IBIS superfluous.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Not much better, in terms of the dynamic range it's pretty much on par with the rivals, e.g. it's slightly better than A9II and slightly worse than A7RIV, and better than 5DIV. That's according to photonstophotos:
> 
> https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV,Sony ILCE-7RM4,Sony ILCE-9M2



Folks who have gone from the 1D X Mark II to the 1D X Mark III mostly say that the shadows can be pushed a lot better with the III than the II. Maybe it's new camera confirmation bias, or maybe the III is metering/exposing more to the right and risking blowing the highlights more?




Graphic.Artifacts said:


> http://[URL]https://www.photonstoph...,Canon EOS 1D X Mark III,Canon EOS 5D Mark IV[/URL]
> 
> This is a more relevant metric in my opinion. The sensor response to lifting shadows has a greater bearing on the way I work than total dynamic range. TDR of Canon sensors is usually suficient for most subjects I photograph. The 1DX3 has a significantly flatter ISO curve than any other Canon sensor I've looked at. If the sensor in the 6R is as ISO invarient as the 1DX3 than it is going to be a winner IMO.



That looks more like what I've been hearing from those using the 1D X Mark III at mid-range ISO settings.


----------



## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

The Fat Fish said:


> The R6 only being 20mp is so frustrating. I have been waiting nearly 8 years for a meaningful 6D upgrade and even in 2020, it looks unlikely. For an 3-4 year difference I would expect increased dynamic range, higher resolution, IBIS and good quality 4K video. Finally 8 years on Canon achieve most of it but 20mp isn't enough. I guess Canon spec a $2000 camera just short of what's expected in order to force buyers into buying their $4000 that "has it all".



The 5D Mark IV is currently going for less than $2K at authorized U.S. dealers. Isn't that about the price range of the 6D when it was introduced?


----------



## usern4cr (Jun 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Most landscape specialists use tripods. That makes IBIS superfluous.


I am not a professional, but my favorite photos are of landscapes. While I have a tripod, and I sometimes create large panos with a tripod, I more often take long walks/hikes with just my camera in hand. I use the great OIS + IBIS to take single photos or sometimes hand-held panorama shots which I then stitch together later. So to me, it is *not* superfluous. If you, or "most landscape specialists" only want to take pictures on a tripod, then more power to you all and I'm glad you're happy. But the majority of the time I take pictures handheld and love the freedom to either use a tripod or not.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jun 25, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Well, then EOS R6 will be a competitor too.


To some extent, yes, but it's a different grade camera.


----------



## David - Sydney (Jun 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> But you could beat the lens length rule for most venues to get into an event (sports/concert/etc.) with 300mm as a spectator.


the new 600/800mm big silver lens may make it under the event limits. seriously high ISO though to freeze action @f11.


----------



## Viggo (Jun 25, 2020)

The DxO result is based on base iso and that is 63 for the 1dx2 and 136 or something on the 1dx3, so all the results are based on using a higher iso.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jun 25, 2020)

General question to anyone on the forum who has an EOS R and uses it for sports, wildlife / fast moving objects. 

I mainly do landscapes and have no issues with the R's performance in this area. However during the lockdown, I've started taking pictures of the family dog and wildlife and have really struggled with getting shots that are in focus. I'm not sure if it's me being a little inexperienced with this type of shooting or using the wrong settings. Ive tried high speed continuous shutter speed with servo AF and still not great. 

I know the R was never designed for fast frame rate shooting so this may be the thing that pushes me to buy the R5 if the EVF lag and AF has been sorted.

Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.


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## Joules (Jun 25, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.


I think the only suggestion that may help with the EVF experience is to use an RF lens and turn on the smooth viewfinder option. If you did that already, there's probably nothing you can do to improve the R EVF, as it is likely hardware limitations.

The R5 should offer some noticeable improvement if it combines the 1DX III LiveView performance with a better OVF. So should the R6 if it indeed uses the same tech as rumored.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 25, 2020)

Joules said:


> I think the only suggestion that may help with the EVF experience is to use an RF lens and turn on the smooth viewfinder option. If you did that already, there's probably nothing you can do to improve the R EVF, as it is likely hardware limitations.
> 
> The R5 should offer some noticeable improvement if it combines the 1DX III LiveView performance with a better OVF. So should the R6 if it indeed uses the same tech as rumored.


Thanks, the EVF lag is quite annoying even with the smooth setting on. My main concern is the focusing, or lack of it. I'm using an RF 70-200mm F2.8L AND the expanded AF setting with Servo on high speed continuous frame rate but it seems none of the images are in focus where I want, i.e. the dog. some of it may be me not tracking the subject and combined with the EFV lag, not panning accurately enough.

Fortunately I only do this type of shooting maybe 30% of the time but it's still massively annoying. I may try it on single shot with AF servo to see if that helps.


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## JustUs7 (Jun 25, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Thanks, the EVF lag is quite annoying even with the smooth setting on. My main concern is the focusing, or lack of it. I'm using an RF 70-200mm F2.8L AND the expanded AF setting with Servo on high speed continuous frame rate but it seems none of the images are in focus where I want, i.e. the dog. some of it may be me not tracking the subject and combined with the EFV lag, not panning accurately enough.
> 
> Fortunately I only do this type of shooting maybe 30% of the time but it's still massively annoying. I may try it on single shot with AF servo to see if that helps.



High speed uses a shooting priority over refocusing. Use the regular continuous shooting mode. That uses a tracking priority placing a higher priority on retaining focus than a higher number of FPS. Probably 5 or less FPS, but it’ll track better. 

High speed is good for a fast moving subject across the same plane of focus.

Without an image, to expand a bit on shooting modes. On the menu, the single square is for single shot. The three overlapping squares is for continuous shooting (tracking priority). The three overlapping squares with the ‘H’ is for high speed continuous (speed priority). 

The second one is what you want.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 25, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> High speed uses a shooting priority over refocusing. Use the regular continuous shooting mode. That uses a tracking priority placing a higher priority on retaining focus than a higher number of FPS. Probably 5 or less FPS, but it’ll track better.
> 
> High speed is good for a fast moving subject across the same plane of focus.


Hi, thanks. Im going to ask a really dumb question about this. When you say 'regular shooting mode' what exactly do you mean? Are you referring to the frame rate as there are basically single shot, high speed continuous and low speed continuous? I'm getting so confused lol, I wasn't aware that apart from face and eye detection / tracking, there was a tracking option. Is this a different setting and if so where is it in the menu. I'm reading the manual as we speak as I'm pretty sure it's not just me that's the issue but also the settings I have used. This is what happens when you only do one aspect of shooting and then try something new lol.

I appreciate the help.
Cheers


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## JustUs7 (Jun 25, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Hi, thanks. Im going to ask a really dumb question about this. When you say 'regular shooting mode' what exactly do you mean? Are you referring to the frame rate as there are basically single shot, high speed continuous and low speed continuous? I'm getting so confused lol, I wasn't aware that apart from face and eye detection / tracking, there was a tracking option. Is this a different setting and if so where is it in the menu. I'm reading the manual as we speak as I'm pretty sure it's not just me that's the issue but also the settings I have used. This is what happens when you only do one aspect of shooting and then try something new lol.
> 
> I appreciate the help.
> Cheers



See my expanded answer above.


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## Viggo (Jun 25, 2020)

The R doesn’t do well with fast and/or erratic subjects like a dog. It’s pretty horrible imo.


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## JustUs7 (Jun 25, 2020)

Viggo said:


> The R doesn’t do well with fast and/or erratic subjects like a dog. It’s pretty horrible imo.



I find some success on the RP using zone AF (tracking within a targeted zone) with regular continuous shooting for my sons soccer games. It’s no pro-rig for sure. You definitely have to be mindful of settings and don’t expect a 100% hit rate. But you shouldn’t be missing all of them.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 25, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> High speed uses a shooting priority over refocusing. Use the regular continuous shooting mode. That uses a tracking priority placing a higher priority on retaining focus than a higher number of FPS. Probably 5 or less FPS, but it’ll track better.
> 
> High speed is good for a fast moving subject across the same plane of focus.
> 
> ...


That makes much more sense. I think Canon call the 2nd one low speed continuous.

As I write, I had just been reading about the continuous AF setting and servo setting. They seem to be the same thing where the camera focuses continuously when the shutter button is pressed half way. Am I right? I currently have the AF On button programmed to flip between single shot and Servo as it's easier than going into the menus.

Thanks again.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 25, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> I find some success on the RP using zone AF (tracking within a targeted zone) with regular continuous shooting for my sons soccer games. It’s no pro-rig for sure. You definitely have to be mindful of settings and don’t expect a 100% hit rate. But you shouldn’t be missing all of them.


Cheers, as I said, I May need more practice panning and following the subject but your suggestion of using the low speed continuous setting that has a lower frame rate but tracking priority will certainly help.

What settings are you using for tracking sensitivity and acceleration / deceleration tracking? I have just changed them to -1 and +2 so it is not quite locked on but will be responsive. 

I think if this was my full time job, I would need the 1dx mk111 lol.

Cheers


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## Viggo (Jun 25, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Cheers, as I said, I May need more practice panning and following the subject but your suggestion of using the low speed continuous setting that has a lower frame rate but tracking priority will certainly help.
> 
> What settings are you using for tracking sensitivity and acceleration / deceleration tracking? I have just changed them to -1 and +2 so it is not quite locked on but will be responsive.
> 
> ...


Try -1 and +1 I find that to work the best for the most variety of subjects and scenarios. I use single point and sometimes with 4- point expansion. But even with that and every other trick in the book I find severely lacking. I don’t even expect it to be kind of close
To the 1dx2, but it should be better than it is...


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## JustUs7 (Jun 25, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> That makes much more sense. I think Canon call the 2nd one low speed continuous.
> 
> As I write, I had just been reading about the continuous AF setting and servo setting. They seem to be the same thing where the camera focuses continuously when the shutter button is pressed half way. Am I right? I currently have the AF On button programmed to flip between single shot and Servo as it's easier than going into the menus.
> 
> Thanks again.



With continuous, it’s always trying to find focus if the camera is on whether you’re pressing the shutter button or not. Unless you’re recording a movie, you shouldn’t use this. It’s a battery drain. 

Servo continuously refocuses to your subject as long as you're holding the focus button ( half shutter in your case). That’s what you want. 

I set mine up for back button focus by mapping the focus button to the AF-On button taking focus from the shutter. I leave it in Servo and hold the button with my thumb. That way, if I want to lock focus, I just take my thumb off the button. It stops refocusing and I can continue to shoot. Then I never have to take it out of Servo because it acts like single shot. 

Look up back button focus on YouTube for more “how to”. It’s not something everyone likes. I found it rather intuitive, but there’s no “right” way.


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## Whowe (Jun 25, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Cheers, as I said, I May need more practice panning and following the subject but your suggestion of using the low speed continuous setting that has a lower frame rate but tracking priority will certainly help.
> 
> What settings are you using for tracking sensitivity and acceleration / deceleration tracking? I have just changed them to -1 and +2 so it is not quite locked on but will be responsive.
> 
> ...


You mentioned that you may need "practice panning and following the subject." If you have your shutter speed high enough, panning becomes a little less important. High shutter speed is critical for consistently getting sharp images of fast moving objects (i.e. wildlife). Yes, some people will get some sharp images of fast moving objects (cars, bikes) using slower shutter and panning, but those are steady and fast, not erratically moving subjects. Usually, for starting out, you want to make sure your shutter is high enough.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 25, 2020)

Viggo said:


> Try -1 and +1 I find that to work the best for the most variety of subjects and scenarios. I use single point and sometimes with 4- point expansion. But even with that and every other trick in the book I find severely lacking. I don’t even expect it to be kind of close
> To the 1dx2, but it should be better than it is...


Thanks, those will be my next set of tests. it's good fun this photo malarky lol


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## BillB (Jun 25, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> General question to anyone on the forum who has an EOS R and uses it for sports, wildlife / fast moving objects.
> 
> I mainly do landscapes and have no issues with the R's performance in this area. However during the lockdown, I've started taking pictures of the family dog and wildlife and have really struggled with getting shots that are in focus. I'm not sure if it's me being a little inexperienced with this type of shooting or using the wrong settings. Ive tried high speed continuous shutter speed with servo AF and still not great.
> 
> ...



Can you get sharp images shooting single shot in light that is good enough to have a fast shutter and good depth of field?


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 25, 2020)

Whowe said:


> You mentioned that you may need "practice panning and following the subject." If you have your shutter speed high enough, panning becomes a little less important. High shutter speed is critical for consistently getting sharp images of fast moving objects (i.e. wildlife). Yes, some people will get some sharp images of fast moving objects (cars, bikes) using slower shutter and panning, but those are steady and fast, not erratically moving subjects. Usually, for starting out, you want to make sure your shutter is high enough.


Thanks, I was using 1/1600 of a second and 1/2000 so should have been OK but I think I had the wrong settings for FPS. Cheers


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 25, 2020)

BillB said:


> Can you get sharp images shooting single shot in light that is good enough to have a fast shutter and good depth of field?


Yup, I have no issues with single shot, all pin sharp when I am able to be quick enough to find the subject lol. it's just when I want to follow a moving subject and need to use the higher FPS I have issues. As I said, I thinks its a combination of me and having the wrong settings. Plus the R doesn't have the fastest frame rate, especially when in Servo mode!

Thanks


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 25, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> With continuous, it’s always trying to find focus if the camera is on whether you’re pressing the shutter button or not. Unless you’re recording a movie, you shouldn’t use this. It’s a battery drain.
> 
> Servo continuously refocuses to your subject as long as you're holding the focus button ( half shutter in your case). That’s what you want.
> 
> ...


That makes sense re the difference between servo and continuous. I was using servo so will continue with that. I think the next test will be using the low speed continuous FPS option.

I really appreciate everyone's comments and thoughts on this, all really useful.  

Just playing around like this although frustrating has made me want to get out more and just take photos, something I'd lost the motivation for. It's great and even better as we can hopefully get out and about more.

I'd sort of resigned myself to keeping the R as the R5 looks a little outside of my budget but doing these few days trying something different has given me the bug again so if VAT (sale tax ) is reduced as rumoured, I may just have to push the boat out and go for it lol


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## JustUs7 (Jun 25, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> That makes sense re the difference between servo and continuous. I was using servo so will continue with that. I think the next test will be using the low speed continuous FPS option.
> 
> I really appreciate everyone's comments and thoughts on this, all really useful.
> 
> ...



Speaking only for myself, I’ll keep my RP. I’ve got a long way to go before my skill set taxes the capabilities of this camera!


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## Starting out EOS R (Jun 25, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> Speaking only for myself, I’ll keep my RP. I’ve got a long way to go before my skill set taxes the capabilities of this camera!


I like your practical and disciplined approach. I wish I wasn't so easily influenced by new shiny things lol


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 25, 2020)

Viggo said:


> The DxO result is based on base iso and that is 63 for the 1dx2 and 136 or something on the 1dx3, so all the results are based on using a higher iso.



'Official' base ISO for both cameras is 100. For some reason, DxO thinks the real base ISO in 1DxIII is higher.


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## neurorx (Jun 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Lots of wildlife at this thread. Not much sports has happened in the last three+ months, so no one has much of it. Maybe find a NASCAR photo group.


Thank you Micheal. I appreciate the link.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> the new 600/800mm big silver lens may make it under the event limits. seriously high ISO though to freeze action @f11.




I doubt even collapsed they will be less than 6" in length. Some venues restrict lenses to 4" or less. Some of them also make you extend the lens to its longest length.


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## The Fat Fish (Jun 25, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> Just curious. What is your shooting style? You sound like a video shooter touting good 4K, but then say 20MP is not enough. It's enough for 4K, which is why I think it was the chosen sensor size. Guess it means you shoot photos if you need the increased resolution. Would you consider having an R for stills which has 30.3MP and the R6 for video? Budget, or the need to carry only 1 body are valid reasons.
> 
> Many can make do with 20MP for photos, but I understand if the workflow involves large format printing or heavy cropping why it wouldn't be enough.


My style makes it tricky. I mostly do landscapes so resolution and dynamic range are important. What makes it tricky is I also do events and often need to swap between stills and video quickly. The EOS R isn't great if I am honest, I hired one for a few weeks and was very dissapointed. The 30mp was good and the dynamic range was fair but it lacked IBIS, had poor video features and there was the risk of only having one card slot. Also the touch bar was a mistake.


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## The Fat Fish (Jun 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The 5D Mark IV is currently going for less than $2K at authorized U.S. dealers. Isn't that about the price range of the 6D when it was introduced?


Yes but the 5DIV isn't the most modern of cameras. On release it was reliable but dated. For $2k the resolution and dynamic range are fair but the video features are incredibly poor in comparison to the competition and it lacks great features like IBIS.


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## BillB (Jun 25, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> 'Official' base ISO for both cameras is 100. For some reason, DxO thinks the real base ISO in 1DxIII is higher.


What DxO thinks is a mystery.


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## Viggo (Jun 25, 2020)

BillB said:


> What DxO thinks is a mystery.


I thought they actually measured it?


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## venusFivePhotoStudio (Jun 25, 2020)

The Fat Fish said:


> Yes but the 5DIV isn't the most modern of cameras. On release it was reliable but dated. For $2k the resolution and dynamic range are fair but the video features are incredibly poor in comparison to the competition and it lacks great features like IBIS.


Second hand 5DIV are around 1000eur


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## dichterDichter (Jun 25, 2020)

Some years ago i switched to sony (a7II). some days ago, i started to look for a 70-200 and ended here, looking forward to maybe go back to canon with a R6 + 70-200 f2.8 or f4. It clearly depends on canon to not screw this completely for example with a very high pricetag....


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## Michael Clark (Jun 25, 2020)

The Fat Fish said:


> Yes but the 5DIV isn't the most modern of cameras. On release it was reliable but dated. For $2k the resolution and dynamic range are fair but the video features are incredibly poor in comparison to the competition and it lacks great features like IBIS.



I must have missed where the 6D (or 6D Mark II) had those features...

The 5D Mark IV is a significant upgrade from the 6D that is currently about the same price as the 6D was introduced at.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jun 26, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Folks who have gone from the 1D X Mark II to the 1D X Mark III mostly say that the shadows can be pushed a lot better with the III than the II. Maybe it's new camera confirmation bias, or maybe the III is metering/exposing more to the right and risking blowing the highlights more?




The exposure doesn't matter imho as long as they push the shadows of the same brightness on the II and the III. If they push lighter shadows on the III, then it's an obvious bias, yes.


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## The Fat Fish (Jun 26, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I must have missed where the 6D (or 6D Mark II) had those features...
> 
> The 5D Mark IV is a significant upgrade from the 6D that is currently about the same price as the 6D was introduced at.


Yes, in comparison to the 6D it was yes, but was it a good value at the time? Not really, no. I'm not saying it's a bad camera - it's a very good camera but I don't think the features justified the price.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 27, 2020)

The Fat Fish said:


> Yes, in comparison to the 6D it was yes, but was it a good value at the time? Not really, no. I'm not saying it's a bad camera - it's a very good camera but I don't think the features justified the price.



You said you've been waiting forever for an upgrade for the 6D. I'm merely pointing out that the 6D Mark II and 5D Mark IV are both significant upgrades to the 6D and don't cost any more than the 6D did when first rolled out. That is all.


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## The Fat Fish (Jun 27, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> You said you've been waiting forever for an upgrade for the 6D. I'm merely pointing out that the 6D Mark II and 5D Mark IV are both significant upgrades to the 6D and don't cost any more than the 6D did when first rolled out. That is all.


The 6DII really isn't much of an upgrade and wasn't worth the price when it was released. The 6DII is possibly the most disappointing camera Canon have ever released. The less said about it the better.

The 5DIV is a noticeable upgrade over the 6D bit it lacks features it should of had at it's price point and release date. Today it's much better value but as it's 2020, I want a 2020 camera. Excellent DR, decent resolution, IBIS and not the 5DIV's worst in class video features.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 27, 2020)

The Fat Fish said:


> The 6DII really isn't much of an upgrade and wasn't worth the price when it was released. The 6DII is possibly the most disappointing camera Canon have ever released. The less said about it the better.



So said the YouTube reviewers and Sony fanboys (or paid shills posting from impoverished countries that have never seen a single 6D Mark II within their borders) who never actually used the 6D Mark II, based on a single measurement by DxO of DR at base ISO.

The 6D Mark II had a real AF system, instead of the Rebel AF system used in the 6D. It was pretty much the equal of the 5D Mark III in every way, other than slight differences in build quality, shutter life rating, 1/4000 vs. 1/8000, and X-sync of 1/180 vs 1/200. None of those things matter one iota if you're primarily concerned with video.

Even Tony Northrup, bless his heart, who thoroughly panned it upon release eventually admitted it was the best v-logging camera for him a year or so after it was introduced.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 27, 2020)

The Fat Fish said:


> The 5DIV is a noticeable upgrade over the 6D bit it lacks features it should of had at it's price point and release date. Today it's much better value but as it's 2020, I want a 2020 camera. Excellent DR, decent resolution, IBIS and not the 5DIV's worst in class video features.



The 5D Mark IV's DR holds up against anything else on the market today unless 1/6 of a stop at base ISO is _really_ that important to you.

I'd place 30 MP right smack-dab in the middle of "decent resolution" for stills between 20 MP on one end and 50-60 MP on the other. The files are manageable while also leaving room for sane amounts of cropping.

You might have a legitimate complaint regarding video features, but then if you're mostly concerned with video, the 5D Mark IV has way more resolution than is optimal for a 4K video camera. That's why it's cropped so severely. Get a 20MP camera that can shoot 4K at the full width of the sensor on a 1:1 pixel basis.

So that leaves IBIS. Again, if you're primarily concerned with video, aren't you using sliders, dollies, booms, etc. to mount the camera anyway?


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## The Fat Fish (Jun 27, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> So said the YouTube reviewers and Sony fanboys (or paid shills posting from impoverished countries that have never seen a single 6D Mark II within their borders) who never actually used the 6D Mark II, based on a single measurement by DxO of DR at base ISO.
> 
> The 6D Mark II had a real AF system, instead of the Rebel AF system used in the 6D. It was pretty much the equal of the 5D Mark III in every way, other than slight differences in build quality, shutter life rating, 1/4000 vs. 1/8000 and X-sync of 1/180 vs 1/200. None of those things matter one iota if you're primarily concerned with video.
> 
> Even Tony Northrup, bless his heart, who thoroughly panned it upon release eventually admitted it was the best v-logging camera for him a year or so after it was introduced.


I hired it for two weeks and hated it. What a complete and utterly pointless camera - sorry, I really dislike the 6DII. So disappointing.


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## The Fat Fish (Jun 27, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The 5D Mark IV's DR holds up against anything else on the market today unless 1/6 of a stop at base ISO is _really_ that important to you.
> 
> I'd place 30 MP right smack-dab in the middle of "decent resolution" for stills between 20 MP on one end and 50-60 MP on the other. The files are manageable while also leaving room for sane amounts of cropping.
> 
> ...


The resolution is good for a $2000 camera and the DR is fine also. As you say, it's the video features that aren't. Other manufacturers have managed high resolution and great quality video, I really wish Canon could. IBIS is also really useful for stills - specifically handheld with non IS lenses.


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## Joules (Jun 28, 2020)

The Fat Fish said:


> Other manufacturers have managed high resolution and great quality video, I really wish Canon could.


The Canon 90D does great quality over sampled 4K video without crop, although at 32 MP it has one of Canon's highest resolution sensors. Canon can do it. And they seem to continue doing it. The R5 will do 8K!


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 28, 2020)

The Fat Fish said:


> Yes, in comparison to the 6D it was yes, but was it a good value at the time? Not really, no. I'm not saying it's a bad camera - it's a very good camera but I don't think the features justified the price.


I would say otherwise but then again I have always rated ergonomics, reliability and access to the best range of native lenses above the cool but ultimately unnecessary features like IBIS, and extra half stop of the mythological DR. And resolution has to do with the way the camera is used. Not its price


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