# Overcoming the lack of Exposure control in Manual Mode 5D Mark III..ideas?



## revup67 (Mar 13, 2014)

Outside of shelling out 6800 USD for a 1DX, I am curious if any of you have found a good work around for the lack of Exposure control in Manual Mode on the 5D Mark III. I've been reading up on Magic Lantern but don't see (at this point) a way to override and offer control of this feature.

This frustration comes when shooting Birds which are back lit. Av mode is great when DOF control is needed which is almost always especially if a bird is at close range and positioned diagonal or any position other than horizontal. Tv Mode is excellent of course if a bird is in flight or in motion so that you can determine the shutter speed yet both fall short of what each others' mode doesn't have yet they both offer Exposure compensation. Manual Mode is therefore the best choice to get your DOF and Shutter selection however there's no control of Exposure Compensation for back lit subjects. Evaluative Mode seems the best for metering especially when choosing AF Expansion Mode for in flight tracking. Oddly, I've found that Exposure can be utilized in M mode if using bracketing but why take 3 shots to get one and add all those shutter counts to the camera? I only shoot in RAW and can correct some of this in Light Room but then the image suffers from graininess when EV is at 0 in M mode.

Perhaps some of you may have your own techniques which I'd be very interested in learning. Looking forward to any suggestions or thoughts on this and my searches here in the forum don't show much on previous threads regarding this issue.

Thanks in advance


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## gekko (Mar 13, 2014)

I have the exact same problem/question for my 7D. Will be interesting to follow this thread.


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## flowers (Mar 13, 2014)

If the bird is between you and the Sun the side pointing towards you is never going to be differently exposed. Just expose for the side of the bird that's pointing at you (you or your camera can't see the side pointing to the Sun anyway) and shoot, in M mode of course. If the bird takes a turn and it looks like you'll be getting the sunny side soon, change exposure while it's veering left or right and then shoot the sunny side. You should instinctively know the accurate exposure for ANYTHING in direct sunlight so you can set it in advance, here's how:
go to M mode. Set the accurate exposure for the bird in direct sunlight. Go to the Menu, Settings, Camera user settings -> Register. Register on your preferred dial option (C1, C2, C3). Go to M mode. Set exposure for shady side. Is the shady side facing you? Shoot away. Is the sunny side facing you? Flip to the correct custom dial mode (C1 if that's where you set the sunny exposure) shoot away. You can go back and forth between M and C1 as much as you want.
This just goes to prove that Av and Tv modes are crutches that leave their users helpless when they can't be efficiently used.


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## Sporgon (Mar 13, 2014)

revup67 said:


> Outside of shelling out 6800 USD for a 1DX, I am curious if any of you have found a good work around for the lack of Exposure control in Manual Mode on the 5D Mark III. I've been reading up on Magic Lantern but don't see (at this point) a way to override and offer control of this feature.
> 
> This frustration comes when shooting Birds which are back lit. Av mode is great when DOF control is needed which is almost always especially if a bird is at close range and positioned diagonal or any position other than horizontal. Tv Mode is excellent of course if a bird is in flight or in motion so that you can determine the shutter speed yet both fall short of what each others' mode doesn't have yet they both offer Exposure compensation. Manual Mode is therefore the best choice to get your DOF and Shutter selection however there's no control of Exposure Compensation for back lit subjects. Evaluative Mode seems the best for metering especially when choosing AF Expansion Mode for in flight tracking. Oddly, I've found that Exposure can be utilized in M mode if using bracketing but why take 3 shots to get one and add all those shutter counts to the camera? I only shoot in RAW and can correct some of this in Light Room but then the image suffers from graininess when EV is at 0 in M mode.
> 
> ...



Surely exposure compensation in manual mode is to offset the exposure using either shutter speed or aperture from the indicated 'correct' meter reading, in exactly the same say you perform 'exposure compensation' in either Av or Tv mode, except in those modes your EC is limited to either offsetting aperture or shutter speed depending on which mode you are using. 

Or am I missing something ?


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 13, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> Surely exposure compensation in manual mode is to offset the exposure using either shutter speed or aperture from the indicated 'correct' meter reading, in exactly the same say you perform 'exposure compensation' in either Av or Tv mode, except in those modes your EC is limited to either offsetting aperture or shutter speed depending on which mode you are using.
> 
> Or am I missing something ?



You're missing the third side of the exposure triangle – ISO. Auto ISO in M mode is a useful feature, only available on more recent bodies. It's my setup of choice for shooting birds in flight. Pick the aperture and shutter speed you need, and the camera gives you a metered exposure by altering the ISO. The v2 firmware for the 1DX added the ability to apply exposure compensation in that situation.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 13, 2014)

flowers said:


> This just goes to prove that Av and Tv modes are crutches that leave their users helpless when they can't be efficiently used.



Are autofocus and burst shooting crutches? How about that delete key on your computer keyboard? Don't be lame! Grab yourself a typewriter, there's always white out for mistakes, assuming anyone even makes those… 

Av and Tv are _conveniences_, not crutches. They are like the moving walkways in an airport, you can walk on the regular floor, but the moving walkway will get you where you need to go faster. In many situations, I care about depth of field, but not shutter speed provided it is faster than a certain value. I should I change to settings (or three, if you believe auto ISO is also a crutch), when there's only a need to change one? The important thing is to know how each mode works, what their limitations are, and when to use each one for maximum benefit and convenience.


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## Sporgon (Mar 13, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Surely exposure compensation in manual mode is to offset the exposure using either shutter speed or aperture from the indicated 'correct' meter reading, in exactly the same say you perform 'exposure compensation' in either Av or Tv mode, except in those modes your EC is limited to either offsetting aperture or shutter speed depending on which mode you are using.
> ...



Ah, I see. Guess I'm stuck in the '70's  Let's have a little Supertramp.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 13, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Sporgon said:
> ...



So am I. Breakfast In America then?

Whilst there is no doubt the highly configurable capabilities of the newest cameras can be of benefit, particularly in situations where the shot changes dramatically quickly, birds from trees to open sky, footballers from shadow to sun etc, there is no doubt in my mind that over complicate the relatively simple three intertwined exposure factors. 

In M mode you have, with all cameras with a back wheel/dial, the ability to change two of the three factors immediately and the third with the press of an iso button. You can buy 1 series cameras secondhand for a few hundred dollars that give you more configuration than most other series bodies, if that kind of functionality is paramount to you then get the body that fills those needs.


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## Sporgon (Mar 13, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Good choice. The 'Logical Song' from that album might be appropriate  I don't know how anyone took a decent picture before the 1Dx came along. Eric Hosking must be turning in his grave, but hopefully the Op won't have to suffer attack by an angry owl to get his shots ;D

A few images for those that don't know who Eric Hosking was. Images will be subject to copyright.


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## mackguyver (Mar 13, 2014)

I shoot in Manual quite a bit with my (non-1DX) bodies and I use two strategies:

1. If shutter speed is critical (i.e. sports or wildlife), I meter on my subject or subject area (if I'm waiting for it), set the shutter to one stop higher than I need (e.g. 1/2000s if I need 1/1000s), set the aperture to wide open or whatever is appropriate, and then set the ISO to a neutral exposure. I then use the shutter speed to adjust exposure since it's essentially set in the middle of 1/1000s (-1) and 1/4000s (+1), in this example. I prefer this method because it's so easy to change shutter speed.

The only thing I can't overcome with this is when adding extenders it throws the exposure off -1-2 stops...yet another 1DX firmware improvement...

2. If aperture flexibility is important (very rare for me, but if I expect a subject to get close or something) I do the same as above, but set the aperture in the middle when I set up the initial exposure and then use the aperture and ISO settings to adjust exposure. It's much more tedious than #1, but works.

I use #1 98% of the time when shooting manual and tailor it to the setting - I'll set the initial speed lower or higher as needed. For landscapes, architecture and most other stuff, I just used Av and normal exposure compensation


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## ejenner (Mar 16, 2014)

Yea, I just use magic lantern - I use a bunch of other features anyway - and ignore all these 'EC doesn't make sense in M' comments. You can't 'uninstall' from a 5DIII though and it only runs under old firmware (no f8 AF) and some people don't like the extra 2s delay on startup. So I'm not sure I can recommend it to a 5DIII user as a first-time install.

For the 7D user, you could give it a try and completely uninstall if you don't like it.


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## fwoodman (Oct 12, 2014)

Mising the EC in M mode really suck and I can't afford the 1Dx. Even Nikon has this feature. Bummer!
I hope Canon will release a firmware update for my 5D mk3. I wish, I would have gone with Nikon.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 12, 2014)

There is a side code base where someone re-coded AutoISO to allow EC in M mode. They also got rid of the couple bytes of code where Canon marketing had them limit the max minimum shutter speed allowed for AutoISO Av mode (an absurd crippling thanks to Canon marketing I guess, no reasonable explanation for the limit).

Other than that, nothing to do other than write a letter to Canon and tell them to stop finding every last way to cripple products on 10 cent features. The 1DX and 7D2 finally do AutoISO reasonably right. Absurd Canon took 10 years to dribble out such a minor little feature and still only allows it to be properly done on 1 series and 7D2.

It's such a trivial thing to implement, a 10 cent feature.

This is the sort of nonsense that slowly alienated their userbase and gets people going over the top nuts about countdowns to marketing initiatives.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 12, 2014)

One option is to lock it into M mode and lock the ISO and apeture and quickly spin the shutter speed manually as it moves from one area to another. It may be difficult in the lighting chances too much or too variably. That can sometimes work for a slightly unevenly lit field for sports though where the goal face and center and sideline each different a bit, you can spin the shutter speed around as action moves from one section to another.


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## Eldar (Oct 12, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> One option is to lock it into M mode and lock the ISO and apeture and quickly spin the shutter speed manually as it moves from one area to another. It may be difficult in the lighting chances too much or too variably. That can sometimes work for a slightly unevenly lit field for sports though where the goal face and center and sideline each different a bit, you can spin the shutter speed around as action moves from one section to another.


I do it three ways. One is as described above, the other is to adjust aperture instead of shutter speed. I normally prefer that, because I rather have a changed DOF, than risking too low shutter speed. The third, which I normally prefer, is to adjust ISO. I have programmed the center button on the back wheel to ISO and adjust with the back wheel. I am of course stretching my coordination capabilities to the max, but with some practice it works.


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## Skulker (Oct 12, 2014)

fwoodman said:


> Mising the EC in M mode really suck and I can't afford the 1Dx. Even Nikon has this feature. Bummer!
> I hope Canon will release a firmware update for my 5D mk3. I wish, I would have gone with Nikon.




Another happy camper posting daft posts! Look in your view finder there you will find an exposure meter. Twiddle with your knobs to your hearts content and it will tell you what compensation you have set.


I also wish you had bought a Nikon. It wouldn't make any real difference to your images. But at least you would be on their forum complaining about something that Nikon has different to Canon.


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## Skulker (Oct 12, 2014)

If you are using Manual mode you are choosing not to use auto shutter or auto aperture. Two of the best advances in cameras. And like you I often choose not to use them. 


In changing light conditions, when I am in M mode, I don't find exposure compensation much use. You are having to anticipate what the conditions will be. For instance birds in flight. Will your bird be against a light sky or flying in front of a dark tree? If you set exposure compensation for one it won't work for the other. (this is much the same on all makes of camera ;D )


You are disabling 2/3 rds of the auto settings of the exposure triangle. Its asking a lot of any camera to get it right in difficult conditions using only 1/3rd of its capacity. Heck you've gone to manual because it cant get it right using either 2/3rds or full auto!


There is another way. (and as far as I know this works fine on all makes of camera ;D ) Choose full Manual. I mean fix your ISO as well. This works better than you might think. What I do is take readings of a patch of grass that is about mid brightness for the day and set up one of my custom functions in manual aperture, shutter speed AND ISO. I can then go to these setting fast if I need to and unless its a really bright day those settings will get you a shot with detail. IF YOU HAVE TIME and its a really bright day you may like to adjust either the shutter speed or aperture as you take the shot depending on the lighting on the subject. You can do this with the control wheels that should be under your finger or thumb. As Eldar said you can sometimes reprogram to adjust ISO if you like that better.


And this tip comes to you from me a CANON 1Dx user and I was told it by a NIKON D4 user. Thankfully he was not obsessed with being negative about either make of camera.


)


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## Jordan23 (Oct 12, 2014)

The 7D mk2 has +/- 5 stops Exposure compensation in Manual-mode whith Auto iso.


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## Eldar (Oct 12, 2014)

Jordan23 said:


> The 7D mk2 has +/- 5 stops Exposure compensation in Manual-mode whith Auto iso.


And that's a good thing. But it does not help when light conditions change while you follow a subject. Then you need to dynamically change your exposure settings and you must do it Fast.


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## skoobey (Oct 13, 2014)

Or, you use the camera like I do, set the exposures for that location on Custom 1 2 3 and just switch while following the bird. In the shade 1, backlight 2, hard light 3. Simple


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## FTb-n (Oct 14, 2014)

Dumb question. How can manual mode with auto ISO still be manual mode? 

There are three elements to exposure control -- aperture, shutter speed, and ISO. With film bodies, the ISO (a.k.a. ASA) was fixed. But, digital bodies introduce the ability to change ISO and offer auto ISO as a feature. It does seem that the PASM (program, auto aperture, auto shutter, manual) mode settings are rather dated from the days of film and it is long overdue to add fifth mode with an auto ISO setting. 

For what it's worth, the current Canon bodies offer two easy to use dials. In manual mode, these can be set to two of the three exposure control elements. I would like to see the integration of a third dial so that I can readily change all three without having to hold another button down while rotating the dial.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 14, 2014)

I occasionally find that when I want to set a fixed aperture and shutter speed , that auto ISO does not give a correct exposure. I can manually set ISO, but exposure compensation is very useful. 

The issue is that I forget to reset it, and then, the next time, exposures are off. We need a auto reminder to automatically automate the auto exposure compensation.


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## adventure (Oct 16, 2014)

I sympathize with the original poster. I fly a 5d3 on an s1000 r/c heli where you can't get at it for 15 minutes at a time and would LOVE to be able to set an M exposure and bracket with ISO. Presently in M mode on the 5d3 exposure bracketing is with shutter speed - not ideal...


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## Eldar (Oct 16, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I occasionally find that when I want to set a fixed aperture and shutter speed , that auto ISO does not give a correct exposure. I can manually set ISO, but exposure compensation is very useful.
> 
> The issue is that I forget to reset it, and then, the next time, exposures are off. We need a auto reminder to automatically automate the auto exposure compensation.


I would vote for that


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## Steve Balcombe (Oct 16, 2014)

EC used in M mode with Auto ISO is a great feature but actually the OP doesn't mention using Auto ISO and never came back to acknowledge the response. I suspect he just missed the obvious - that exposure compensation is done manually in (traditional) manual mode by adjusting aperture or shutter speed up/down from the metered reading. Could be wrong, but that's how it reads to me.

Still - looking forward to trying this out on the 7D2...


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## revup67 (Dec 22, 2014)

The original OP has been reading all the responses . There are some good options here and yes the Auto ISO is "on" in M mode. My apologies for omitting this aspect.

A few nay sayers have potentially overlooked the fact if Canon has opted to put the EC +/- option in Manual Mode on the 1DX and 7D MKII then apparently someone in marketing is listening and delivering to engineering these requests as some of us find this of value. The need for this would depend on what is your subject matter and how much you should this type of subject matter. I photo birds 90% of the time and the more tools the merrier. All birds do not have the same behavior - some predictable some not. A Black Phoebe would be a cinch in M mode typically low to the ground or a few feet up on a fence post and once in awhile in a tree branch about 10-15 feet up. However a Ruby Crowned-kinglet..could be a big challenge - in and out of thin branches continuously moving in and out of light and jittery especially in mating season or when agitated. Additionally, trying to get the male with a raised ruby crown is another layer of complexity as its typically recessed and lowered with the crown. 



Ruby-crowned Kinglet (male) (019846) by Anthony &quot;Tony G&quot; Gliozzo (Web Site is ocbirds.com), on Flickr

Getting reliable shots with a 5D MK III in M mode with this bird are far more challenging - most of your time would be spent flipping dials and buttons - there's simply no time. The same would be true for Vireos and Warblers which are another species much like this as high in the tree tops sometimes 50-75 feet up at times hence the term "warbler neck". You may have a few seconds to see the species "period" especially with foliage blocking the view and little or no time to shuffle between C1 and other settings. I can approximate the speed and aperture needed but not the dynamics of light in some cases..adding a +1 or +2 on EC with Auto ISO would be beneficial in these scenarios especially with darker birds.

As some of you have agreed, having this option is important for bird photographers. The dynamics involved can be challenging even to the best birding photographers. Also, Spot Metering helps as well to aid a bit more on the subject exposure if centered. Thanks to the poster who mentioned the tidbit about adding a 1.4 TC and how it can alter the light meter accuracy - agreed. Thanks to all for contributing.
Rev


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## FTb-n (Apr 30, 2015)

FTb-n said:


> Dumb question. How can manual mode with auto ISO still be manual mode?
> 
> There are three elements to exposure control -- aperture, shutter speed, and ISO. With film bodies, the ISO (a.k.a. ASA) was fixed. But, digital bodies introduce the ability to change ISO and offer auto ISO as a feature. It does seem that the PASM (program, auto aperture, auto shutter, manual) mode settings are rather dated from the days of film and it is long overdue to add fifth mode with an auto ISO setting.
> 
> For what it's worth, the current Canon bodies offer two easy to use dials. In manual mode, these can be set to two of the three exposure control elements. I would like to see the integration of a third dial so that I can readily change all three without having to hold another button down while rotating the dial.


With the recent acquisition of a 1Dx, I've grown to like the exposure compensation with Auto ISO in manual mode. As a rule, I get the best results with full manual mode (without Auto ISO). But, there are times when Auto ISO is handy -- but it can be useless with overly dark or overly light subjects or backgrounds.

I must agree that exposure compensation in Manual mode with Auto ISO would be very handy on the 5D3. In fact, I'd be happy if this were the only automated mode available.


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## YuengLinger (May 9, 2015)

All time silliest thread ever? You mean, when I'm driving my car, I actually have to steer and brake? But that's too hard! That gets in the way of my tweeting! Boo hoo!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 9, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> All time silliest thread ever? You mean, when I'm driving my car, I actually have to steer and brake? But that's too hard! That gets in the way of my tweeting! Boo hoo!



Whats silliest? The Thread, or those answering questions asked a year ago when the thread started?


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## distant.star (May 9, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> All time silliest thread ever? You mean, when I'm driving my car, I actually have to steer and brake? But that's too hard! That gets in the way of my tweeting! Boo hoo!



I don't know as I'd go so far as silly. Personally, I might relegate it to the picking the fly poop out of the pepper category.

On the plus side, these are folks striving for excellence -- and I'd never denigrate that.

For a philosophical perspective on why that may be important, read Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." Fun read even if you're not into "quality."


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