# DPReview: Canon EOS R first impressions with Chris and Rishi



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 5, 2018)

> The guys over at DPReview have done a first impression video about the new Canon EOS R system. The guys seem to feel the camera is a mirrorless version of the EOS 6D Mark II in some ways and the EOS 5D Mark IV in others.
> They seem to be quite impressed with the first four RF lenses that Canon has announced, and there’s a lot more of them coming in 2019.
> The autofocus also impressed during their short time with the camera and make note of the -6 EV capabilities of the AF system.



Continue reading...


----------



## traveller (Sep 5, 2018)

Meanwhile, over at Lula, Kevin Raber & co. have written quite a positive initial article about the new EOS R system, after years of basically ignoring everything Canon. It probably helps that Canon paid for them to fly to Hawaii and have agreed to allow them to take an EOS R home for further testing  (I should point out that he does disclose all this in the article). 
https://luminous-landscape.com/canon-eos-r-camera-launched/

This comes just a few days after Kevin Raber wrote a “rantatorial” about Nikon failing to invite him to the launch of the Z system.... 
https://luminous-landscape.com/rantatorial/my-thoughts-on-the-new-nikon-z6-and-z7-cameras/

[Apologies if either of these links are behind the “pay wall”]


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 5, 2018)

I'm expecting old Rishi boy to be still complaining that the new Canon body still can't read his mind on which of the 5655 focus points it should "automagically" select when in AI Servo.


----------



## docsmith (Sep 5, 2018)

I'll be curious to see the longer term reviews. 

These guys were jumping to conclusions to get content up. But, overall, still seems like a very good camera.


----------



## woodman411 (Sep 5, 2018)

Let's not give DPR and Rishi more attention, they are a thinly veiled anti-Canon review site who overemphasize Sony strengths (his obsession with dynamic range is just one example) while glossing over their weaknesses. Funny in this video it is Chris who mentions that Canon R will focus wide open stopped down, a critical Sony weakness never mentioned in Rishi's Sony reviews. Canon makes cameras for usability first and foremost. That means emphasis on auto-focus speed and accuracy, ergonomics, UI and menus, responsive and fully articulating touchscreen, closing the sensor when changing lenses, etc. Things that are not exciting for review sites, but important for real world use.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

Seemed like a fair first and fast look to me.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 5, 2018)

woodman411 said:


> Let's not give DPR and Rishi more attention, they are a thinly veiled anti-Canon review site who overemphasize Sony strengths (his obsession with dynamic range is just one example) while glossing over their weaknesses. Funny in this video that it is Chris that mentions that Canon R will focus wide open stopped down, a critical Sony weakness never mentioned in Rishi's Sony reviews. Canon makes cameras for usability first and foremost. That means emphasis on auto-focus speed and accuracy, ergonomics, UI and menus, responsive and usable touchscreen, closing the sensor when changing lenses, fully articulating screen, etc. Things that are not exciting for review sites, but important for real world use.



Ah Rishi, the best humour ever on CR. Rishi + PBD super. Rishi + Neuro even better! Yes, I do have a slightly convoluted sense of humour.

Jack


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 5, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> Ah Rishi, the best humour ever on CR. Rishi + PBD super. Rishi + Neuro even better! Yes, I do have a slightly convoluted sense of humour.
> 
> Jack


Jack I'm deeply hurt, my Rishi comments are second to Neuro's? I try to bring my 'A' game to Rishi threads.

On a more serious note I really like what Canon have laid out as the core of the two mirrorless systems, the M line is primarily made with size in mind, the R/RF line is made with lens quality as the primary focus. That 28-70 f2 looks a beast and opens up a new era for event shooters.

I'm not interested in new camera but will be very interested in the upcoming 'pro' model, if it bests the 1DX MkII video specs I'm a near certain buyer.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 5, 2018)

docsmith said:


> I'll be curious to see the longer term reviews.
> 
> These guys were jumping to conclusions to get content up. But, overall, still seems like a very good camera.


It's a very good design ergonomically but it has the same short comings for video as the 5div which is like a "Canon" generation old by now and maybe an old sensor . Once again, one has to ask who is this camera for. Is it for people that want a second body, or for people that want to get something a bit better than a 6d II and cant afford a 5div. If someone is new to pro cameras and has 2000 dollars, I would recommend a Sony at this point.


----------



## Aaron D (Sep 5, 2018)

Canon can take a deep sigh of relief now they know the geniuses at dpreview are "quite impressed". Sitting all night on the edge of their seats, no doubt.

I would have placed an order for one already but recent experience has taught me my backup camera needs to be the very same as my primary—so I'll wait and buy two of the next, higher-res, two-card-slot version. Ya know they've got one in the works.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 5, 2018)

I agree with their last take: Existing Canon users and Nikon users may see little incentive whatsoever to switch to either brand, but overall Sony still by far the most appealing system to switch to or to outright get in to. They have the most native glass by far and will likely retain that advantage for years, more feature dazzle, excellent video specs, momentum and are in really good shape. If I was just getting into this stuff, I'd totally understand why people may skip all the adapter nonsense from the mirror slappers and the anemic native lens lineup that lacks so many basics. In many ways, reminds me of "dad's camera" syndrome where the young just don't give a crap who was the #1 dinosaur when "dad" used to take photos.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 5, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> Jack I'm deeply hurt, my Rishi comments are second to Neuro's? I try to bring my 'A' game to Rishi threads.
> 
> On a more serious note I really like what Canon have laid out as the core of the two mirrorless systems, the M line is primarily made with size in mind, the R/RF line is made with lens quality as the primary focus. That 28-70 f2 looks a beast and opens up a new era for event shooters.
> 
> I'm not interested in new camera but will be very interested in the upcoming 'pro' model, if it bests the 1DX MkII video specs I'm a near certain buyer.



I'm probably not remembering accurately, guess it's a toss up. Watching their video I still detect slight bias that Rishi honestly can't sense but I'm OK with that.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 5, 2018)

"Sony .... are in really good shape". That's good to hear because it's important for competition to stay strong. So you don't think what's coming from Canon in the days ahead will have any impact?

Jack


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 5, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> "Sony .... are in really good shape". That's good to hear because it's important for competition to stay strong. So you don't think what's coming from Canon in the days ahead will have any impact?
> 
> Jack


Too bad Canon still operates as if it doesnt have competition outside of itself. It's the end of 2018 and we still have cropped 4k, no 4k 60p, and no 1080p 120fps on a 3/4 year old sensor with an AA filter. Do we have to wait until 2022 for something better when by then I am sure technology will be miles ahead from every other brand and even in phones.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 5, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> Too bad Canon still operates as if it doesnt have competition outside of itself. It's the end of 2018 and we still have cropped 4k, no 4k 60p, and no 1080p 120fps on a 3/4 year old sensor with an AA filter. Do we have to wait until 2022 for something better when by then I am sure technology will be miles ahead from every other brand and even in phones.



Alternative reading: Canon has looked at the competition and does not think those functions are critical. 

Let's jump forward to 2022 (your scenario): Canon has uncropped 4k, 4k at 60p, 180p 120fps. 
Where will the competitoin go: 4k at 90fps? 180p at 160 fps? My guess is those 'advances' will mean something to a few specialist photographers and will mean zip to the general public and you are well into the law of diminishing returns. How is that going to hurt Canon?


----------



## Bekippe (Sep 5, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> On a more serious note I really like what Canon have laid out as the core of the two mirrorless systems, the M line is primarily made with size in mind, the R/RF line is made with lens quality as the primary focus.



That I think is the point so many people are missing: M will live on as the compact/travel line. No matter what people hope for, you simply cannot have extreme performance in a tiny package, and trying to make both work together would require some form of compromise. There is however nothing stopping them from making an APS-C R mount system in the future with an actual focus on quality. I'm willing to bet that the new mount parameters could make for some interesting lens designs utilizing the smaller image circle.

Also for those talking about the sensor: Considering the fact that the DPAF on the 5DIV can only do 80% sensor height vs 100% on the R, i'd say its at a minimum a revised version of that sensor, so not exactly the same


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 5, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> Too bad Canon still operates as if it doesnt have competition outside of itself. It's the end of 2018 and we still have cropped 4k, no 4k 60p, and no 1080p 120fps on a 3/4 year old sensor with an AA filter. Do we have to wait until 2022 for something better when by then I am sure technology will be miles ahead from every other brand and even in phones.


And a 28-70 f2!, and a native 50 f1.2. The R is obviously a mid range camera but the system is looking very very interesting. Native adapters with added functionality like filter use, heck it's worth getting one just to use variable ND filters with the 11-24 for video use! Or the new programable function adapter. 10 bit C-Log in a 6D MkII equal camera! A 5D MkIV sensor for over $1,000 less money. Lots to like system wise so far.

For me the Canon FF mirrorless system is offering a decent number of unique features that make it stand out. 

Anybody that uses the phone argument when relating to ff sensors clearly doesn't actually shoot 4k video with larger sensors.


----------



## traveller (Sep 5, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Alternative reading: Canon has looked at the competition and does not think those functions are critical.
> 
> Let's jump forward to 2022 (your scenario): Canon has uncropped 4k, 4k at 60p, 180p 120fps.
> Where will the competitoin go: 4k at 90fps? 180p at 160 fps? My guess is those 'advances' will mean something to a few specialist photographers and will mean zip to the general public and you are well into the law of diminishing returns. How is that going to hurt Canon?



Another alternative reading: Canon’s current 30MP full frame imaging chip isn’t capable of 4K full sensor readout and they thought that the kind of people who moan about this are also the same people who wouldn’t be willing to put up an extra $1000 on the price to cover the R&D for a brand new sensor design.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 5, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> Too bad Canon still operates as if it doesnt have competition outside of itself. It's the end of 2018 and we still have cropped 4k, no 4k 60p, and no 1080p 120fps on a 3/4 year old sensor with an AA filter. Do we have to wait until 2022 for something better when by then I am sure technology will be miles ahead from every other brand and even in phones.



Funny, I was doing some video of classic cars and the shiny grills displayed kind of weird, which I assume would be even worse without the filter (I'm new to video). Likewise I've shot Cedar waxwings and strange patterns seem to appear in their feathers, again, I believe this would be worse with no AA filter. So, maybe it's not as one sided as it seems. I don't have any objection to the crop factor on my 1Dx2.

Jack


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 5, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> And a 28-70 f2!, and a native 50 f1.2. The R is obviously a mid range camera but the system is looking very very interesting. Native adapters with added functionality like filter use, heck it's worth getting one just to use variable ND filters with the 11-24 for video use! Or the new programable function adapter. 10 bit C-Log in a 6D MkII equal camera! A 5D MkIV sensor for over $1,000 less money. Lots to like system wise so far.
> 
> For me the Canon FF mirrorless system is offering a decent number of unique features that make it stand out.
> 
> Anybody that uses the phone argument when relating to ff sensors clearly doesn't actually shoot 4k video with larger sensors.



So is the next one out the gate an Rx, as in prescription? Funny, I'm not feeling let down by Canon, only financially challenged thinking about future GAS.

Jack


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 5, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> So is the next one out the gate an Rx, as in prescription? Funny, I'm not feeling let down by Canon, only financially challenged thinking about future GAS.
> 
> Jack



+1
I was seriously contemplating getting a A73 to see what all the fuss is about but thought I would wait to see what the R looked like. 
My reasons for the Sony were really two fold - dynamic range and eye AF. he new R has what looks like the 5DIV sensor and it has eye AF. And I will be able to use my existing lenses without spending a few hundred more on the Metabones. 
In a weird way knowing that Canon has released the R has calmed my GAS for a bit - I just need to wait for the reviews


----------



## drama (Sep 5, 2018)

I did enjoy playing tech-spec-size-Queen bingo today as the system was announced. It’s now *very* trendy for people who read reviews and who don’t actually understand what they’re shooting on to cry “But one card slot! Muh IBIS! Where is 4K 60FPS?” I greatly suspect many of them will end up buying the system anyway. Lens stabilisation has always been Canon’s priority. Have you tried to run lens and body stabilisation together? It’s gross. Both have strengths, and Canon has very clearly made the EOS R about the glass not the bodies.

Fair enough that for some, perhaps wedding photographers, [email protected] is very nice to have. Sony have you covered there. Canon have done their diligence here and launched the start of a first-in-class range of glass. And for camera manufacturers, that’s always been the money. The body just has to be good enough - and again, this has always been something Canon excelled at. 

And to those who would argue, let’s wait for the first quarter sales results, shall we?


----------



## Mac Duderson (Sep 5, 2018)

MAN!! I'm so bumbed about this camera and I'm usually positive when everyone is negative about a camera release. 
But the only 3 things I want Canon didn't do in this camera and EVERYONE else is.
IBIS - WHY Canon!? Why can't you do it. Even Nikon's lowest body has it!!
1080 @ 120fps - WHY?? 
I have been waiting for years for these 2 things. If this camera came out with the same specs as Nikon's Z6 I was going to sell my 5D3 and buy one of these.
Now I don't know what to do. My buddies went Sony a while ago and been bugging me to go Sony because they said Canon won't produce.
Guess they were right. F!


----------



## drama (Sep 5, 2018)

Mac Duderson said:


> IBIS - WHY Canon!? Why can't you do it. Even Nikon's lowest body has it!!



Canon have always stabilised glass. Why would they change that when it makes their lenses best in class?



> 1080 @ 120fps - WHY??



Next to no-one needs it. Plus cinema range protection.



> Now I don't know what to do. My buddies went Sony a while ago and been bugging me to go Sony because they said Canon won't produce.
> Guess they were right. F!



Sounds like you should buy a Sony. 
Bet you don’t though.


----------



## Yasko (Sep 5, 2018)

Still need to pay 3K+ for more than 1 Card Slot in FF .
Thought about trying out paid photography with my 6D mk II and my 3K+ investment in glass, but yet I lack redundancy. But I can‘t pay so much for a camera just for that extra slot and a few (no doubt) nice addons that I don‘t really need.

However, the camera looks really nice.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 5, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Alternative reading: Canon has looked at the competition and does not think those functions are critical.
> 
> Let's jump forward to 2022 (your scenario): Canon has uncropped 4k, 4k at 60p, 180p 120fps.
> Where will the competitoin go: 4k at 90fps? 180p at 160 fps? My guess is those 'advances' will mean something to a few specialist photographers and will mean zip to the general public and you are well into the law of diminishing returns. How is that going to hurt Canon?





traveller said:


> Another alternative reading: Canon’s current 30MP full frame imaging chip isn’t capable of 4K full sensor readout and they thought that the kind of people who moan about this are also the same people who wouldn’t be willing to put up an extra $1000 on the price to cover the R&D for a brand new sensor design.


 Seeing that I have a c100 and a c200 and a 5div and 5dsr and 5diii. I would put out a lot of money for more features , better image quality, and most of all , have them in a nice convenient package if possible. If you work a lot like me you get tired of lugging around a bunch of different cameras because of the extremely inconvenient segmentation Canon has implemented in order to get the best images. This camera is a step forward but I just think it is a too late for such features. Lets worry about ourselves. the consumers. They have billions we don't. Canon reminds me of Nintendo during the n64 era. They just do things their way while Sony (coincidence), went into a more advanced direction. Nintendo fans defended everything Nintendo said and did like keeping cartridges over discs, then when they switched to discs the same fanboys praised them again even though like 6 years ago they hated cd-rom.


----------



## Mac Duderson (Sep 5, 2018)

drama said:


> Canon have always stabilised glass. Why would they change that when it makes their lenses best in class?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have to do something eventually because I need better stabilization. Yes Canon has amazing lenses but that doesn't help with stabilizing. I shoot 35 1.4ii, 50 1.2L, 85 1.2ii, 105 1.4 for weddings and commercial video with glidecam's and now DJI's Ronin-S but all this could be AMAZING with IBIS.
For me gear is gear and I don't mind going to Sony or Nikon but I use to shoot Nikon in the past and jumped because their Color wasn't my style. I LOVE Canon's color for my style so I desperately wanted a Canon release to work.
I'm really looking at the Z6 sadly.. It does everything I need for practical work.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 5, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> Funny, I was doing some video of classic cars and the shiny grills displayed kind of weird, which I assume would be even worse without the filter (I'm new to video). Likewise I've shot Cedar waxwings and strange patterns seem to appear in their feathers, again, I believe this would be worse with no AA filter. So, maybe it's not as one sided as it seems. I don't have any objection to the crop factor on my 1Dx2.
> 
> Jack


I love the 5dsr. Not only do I not see moire, the video is much sharper than the 5dIII. ALso the crop isnt that bad on the 1dxII and a lot of cloggers actually own the 1dx2 which features 120fps in 1080p. One other thing no one is mentioning is that there seems to be a huge amount of rolling shutter in 4k with the 5div and in a video I seen for the eos r on the Northrup youtube channel.


----------



## reef58 (Sep 5, 2018)

I think Canon released their entry level full frame, but with the lenses they announced we are coming. Lenses are their strength so seems to be a good move. I find the news exciting, but not really much of a mirrorless fan.


----------



## reef58 (Sep 5, 2018)

Mac Duderson said:


> I have to do something eventually because I need better stabilization. Yes Canon has amazing lenses but that doesn't help with stabilizing. I shoot 35 1.4ii, 50 1.2L, 85 1.2ii, 105 1.4 for weddings and commercial video with glidecam's and now DJI's Ronin-S but all this could be AMAZING with IBIS.
> For me gear is gear and I don't mind going to Sony or Nikon but I use to shoot Nikon in the past and jumped because their Color wasn't my style. I LOVE Canon's color for my style so I desperately wanted a Canon release to work.
> I'm really looking at the Z6 sadly.. It does everything I need for practical work.



I certainly don't know this business you describe, but from what little I do know and what I have read neither the Nikon nor Canon releases would be optimal for shooting weddings. Are you talking video only or stills and video? Most reviewers have indicated the Nikon's focusing was not optimal. That would concern me for a paid wedding shoot. But that is me.


----------



## beforeEos Camaras (Sep 5, 2018)

I find all these jump over to sony have forgotten. when it breaks and all cameras do break be it drop or just extreme use.

who is going to fix it?
sony has no cps and if its a older model no extra parts.


----------



## Yasko (Sep 5, 2018)

beforeEos Camaras said:


> I find all these jump over to sony have forgotten. when it breaks and all cameras do break be it drop or just extreme use.
> 
> who is going to fix it?
> sony has no cps and if its a older model no extra parts.



Sony has upped their game regarding he pro support.But if the camera breaks after a year or so, you just buy the newer model of your camera branch anyway.


----------



## PGSanta (Sep 5, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> +1
> I was seriously contemplating getting a A73 to see what all the fuss is about but thought I would wait to see what the R looked like.
> My reasons for the Sony were really two fold - dynamic range and eye AF. he new R has what looks like the 5DIV sensor and it has eye AF. And I will be able to use my existing lenses without spending a few hundred more on the Metabones.
> In a weird way knowing that Canon has released the R has calmed my GAS for a bit - I just need to wait for the reviews



It has eye AF only useable in AFS... what the hell is the point when you cap out at 3fps though. 

The EV rating is made with a 1.2...

Someone at Canon marketing is kind of clever.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 5, 2018)

PGSanta said:


> It has eye AF only useable in AFS... what the hell is the point when you cap out at 3fps though.
> 
> The EV rating is made with a 1.2...
> 
> Someone at Canon marketing is kind of clever.



It's billed as a portrait function so AF-S seems reasonable to me especially as it has eye AF with focus tracking. It took Sony 5+ years to develop eye AF in burst mode.


----------



## drama (Sep 5, 2018)

Mac Duderson said:


> I have to do something eventually because I need better stabilization. Yes Canon has amazing lenses but that doesn't help with stabilizing. I shoot 35 1.4ii, 50 1.2L, 85 1.2ii, 105 1.4 for weddings and commercial video with glidecam's and now DJI's Ronin-S but all this could be AMAZING with IBIS.
> For me gear is gear and I don't mind going to Sony or Nikon but I use to shoot Nikon in the past and jumped because their Color wasn't my style. I LOVE Canon's color for my style so I desperately wanted a Canon release to work.
> I'm really looking at the Z6 sadly.. It does everything I need for practical work.



I would assume that as the 24-70 2.0 and the 50mm 1.2 are both unstabilized, that a stabilized body is coming. When however, remains to be seen. It certainly won't be in the next six months, given the hype around this launch. They'll want to let the R breathe for a bit.


----------



## jjesp (Sep 5, 2018)

But why? Beside the EVF, the great thing is that mirrorless could be smaller. They even did make a new mount. And then the lenses are so big.... Come on Canon!


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 5, 2018)

1080 at 120 FPS?



drama said:


> Next to no-one needs it.



It’s not like anyone shooting a wedding ever wanted a slow motion clip of the newlyweds first dance.....

Or anyone shooting birds in flight wanted to slow them down......


----------



## HarryFilm (Sep 5, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> Canon can take a deep sigh of relief now they know the geniuses at dpreview are "quite impressed". Sitting all night on the edge of their seats, no doubt.
> 
> I would have placed an order for one already but recent experience has taught me my backup camera needs to be the very same as my primary—so I'll wait and buy two of the next, higher-res, two-card-slot version. Ya know they've got one in the works.



===

The BEST PART of this announcement is a .F.A.S.T.. F1.2 L-series lens which pretty much breaks the internet WIDE OPEN! The new Canon Mirrorless R-mount camera is GOOD but NOWHERE NEAR TRULY GREAT.....HOWEVER.....a 50mm F1.2 L-series ULM lens IS A TRULY GREAT ANNOUNCEMENT from the get go!

The camera is worth getting JUST FOR THAT LENS ALONE!!!! If any of you buy ANYTHING ELSE with this camera BUY THAT LENS !!!!! ANY camera is only as great as the photographer's skill and the lens he/she puts on it. Save your pennies for that F 1.2 lens!


----------



## RGF (Sep 5, 2018)

docsmith said:


> I'll be curious to see the longer term reviews.
> 
> These guys were jumping to conclusions to get content up. But, overall, still seems like a very good camera.



Time will tell. I am a bit surprised that they said anything major positive about the camera as DPReview seems to have negative towards Canon


----------



## Random Orbits (Sep 5, 2018)

So what is the naming convention going forward? I would have preferring this camera being called the R6 or something like that. What would the 5DIV mirrorless counterpart be named?


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 5, 2018)

jjesp said:


> But why? Beside the EVF, the great thing is that mirrorless could be smaller. They even did make a new mount. And then the lenses are so big.... Come on Canon!
> View attachment 180189



For the reason Canon state, the opportunity to make better glass. The R/RF line is about uncompromising glass, not size, the M line is about size. The RF 50 f1.2 is supposed to be markedly better in the IQ department than the EF version.

Personally I'm not interested in either of the above, my interest lies in the 'pro' R model and using the 11-24 on it with the filter adapter for video and the 35 f1.8 for walk around. The R is looking like a vloggers dream, if the 'pro' version has more frame rate options and more MP I'll be getting one.


----------



## HarryFilm (Sep 5, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> Funny, I was doing some video of classic cars and the shiny grills displayed kind of weird, which I assume would be even worse without the filter (I'm new to video). Likewise I've shot Cedar waxwings and strange patterns seem to appear in their feathers, again, I believe this would be worse with no AA filter. So, maybe it's not as one sided as it seems. I don't have any objection to the crop factor on my 1Dx2.
> 
> Jack




--

This shimmering you see on the grills is technically a form of Moire where high contrast edges at non-vertical and non-horizontal orientations cannot be rendered properly. This is actually more to do with the final display monitor and the human vision system than the camera sensor. The means you need WIDER dynamic range into 16-bits per channel HRD OLED territory to properly prevent the "fast rise times" of high contrast edges when you put that video through a waveform monitor for quality control purposes. There has to be more in-between pixels of a medium intensity which ensures a "Slower Luminance Signal Rise Time". Electronics can EASILY RESOLVE immediate differences between high contrast pixel values BUT the human vision system CANNOT, so the brain tries to compensate but will resolve into that weird shimmering moire effect.

The only way to REALLY fix the issue is lower the contrast ratio or get a wider dynamic range sensor and video display monitor at 16 bits per colour channel (aka RGB 48 bits per pixel).


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 5, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> The BEST PART of this announcement is a .F.A.S.T.. F1.2 L-series lens which pretty much breaks the internet WIDE OPEN! The new Canon Mirrorless R-mount camera is GOOD but NOWHERE NEAR TRULY GREAT.....HOWEVER.....a 50mm F1.2 L-series ULM lens IS A TRULY GREAT ANNOUNCEMENT from the get go!
> 
> The camera is worth getting JUST FOR THAT LENS ALONE!!!! If any of you buy ANYTHING ELSE with this camera BUY THAT LENS !!!!! ANY camera is only as great as the photographer's skill and the lens he/she puts on it. Save your pennies for that F 1.2 lens!



HOLY CATSHIT BATMAN!!!!!

I agree with Harry!

Surely this is a sign of the coming apocalypse and Canon is *******!


----------



## Kit. (Sep 6, 2018)

No, I'm not going to spend 5K euro just on buying an effing 50mm lens.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 6, 2018)

jjesp said:


> But why? Beside the EVF, the great thing is that mirrorless could be smaller. They even did make a new mount. And then the lenses are so big.... Come on Canon!
> View attachment 180189


Beautiful! I love huge and heavy lenses. Seriously.


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 6, 2018)

jjesp said:


> But why? Beside the EVF, the great thing is that mirrorless could be smaller. They even did make a new mount. And then the lenses are so big.... Come on Canon!



Quite frankly, If I want a small camera SYSTEM, I'm going with an M or a 4/3..... What good is a smaller camera that really isn't smaller?


----------



## Orangutan (Sep 6, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> Too bad Canon still operates as if it doesnt have competition outside of itself. It's the end of 2018 and we still have cropped 4k, no 4k 60p, and no 1080p 120fps on a 3/4 year old sensor with an AA filter. Do we have to wait until 2022 for something better when by then I am sure technology will be miles ahead from every other brand and even in phones.


Why blame Canon for this? If the other brands are so great, why aren't they eating Canon's market-share (and lunch)? Instead of criticizing Canon for being complacent, you should criticize the other companies for failing produce products that take market-share.


----------



## Orangutan (Sep 6, 2018)

Mac Duderson said:


> MAN!! I'm so bumbed about this camera and I'm usually positive when everyone is negative about a camera release.
> But the only 3 things I want Canon didn't do in this camera and EVERYONE else is.
> IBIS - WHY Canon!?


Because it's less effective the longer the FL, and they have IS glass that does it better. Adding IBIS might help a bit, but is it worth the cost? To you, certainly, but to others? Probably not.


----------



## Orangutan (Sep 6, 2018)

Mac Duderson said:


> I'm really looking at the Z6 sadly.. It does everything I need for practical work.


Why is that sad? Buy what you need, there's no regret or shame there. Canon makes what it thinks will be profitable, and so far they've been correct.


----------



## Orangutan (Sep 6, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> HOLY CATSHIT BATMAN!!!!!
> 
> I agree with Harry!
> 
> Surely this is a sign of the coming apocalypse and Canon is *******!


No, it just means Harry briefly broke character and the fourth-wall.


----------



## ritholtz (Sep 6, 2018)

woodman411 said:


> Let's not give DPR and Rishi more attention, they are a thinly veiled anti-Canon review site who overemphasize Sony strengths (his obsession with dynamic range is just one example) while glossing over their weaknesses. Funny in this video it is Chris who mentions that Canon R will focus wide open stopped down, a critical Sony weakness never mentioned in Rishi's Sony reviews. Canon makes cameras for usability first and foremost. That means emphasis on auto-focus speed and accuracy, ergonomics, UI and menus, responsive and fully articulating touchscreen, closing the sensor when changing lenses, etc. Things that are not exciting for review sites, but important for real world use.


This. Sony and Nikon Z are going to focus stopped down. Think about if it is other way round. There will be big section talking about some focusing concepts and all.


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 6, 2018)

drama said:


> Canon have always stabilised glass. Why would they change that when it makes their lenses best in class?



Ah, where's the stabilisation for my 24-70/2.8 II we've got next to the 5DIV?



drama said:


> Next to no-one needs it. Plus cinema range protection.



Who apart from Canon cares about any protection. If you don't need it, stop suggesting others the same. If ppl want 120 fps nowadays, just give it to them.



drama said:


> Sounds like you should buy a Sony.
> Bet you don’t though.



Sounds like you should think twice before posting a hilarious stuff....


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 6, 2018)

Harryfilm, thanks for that explanation. Sounds like the lighting I have at the time is worth considering, maybe more overcast. It was 4k60 being viewed out of the 1DX2 directly on a 4K TV and it sure looked distracting.

Jack


----------



## drama (Sep 6, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Who apart from Canon cares about any protection. If you don't need it, stop suggesting others the same.



Canon care about protecting their cinema line. My entire suggestion here isn't that that's good or bad, but that you should expect it, and complaining about it is pointless when it's been proven time and again, and that there are cameras from other companies that will offer what you want. Coming here to moan that Canon aren't making the perfect camera (for you) when they have a well established history of making the logical camera for them seems like an exercise in futility.

The bottom line is that there's now a healthy, competitive marketplace in mirrorless, and that's excellent for the consumer. I think, 24 hours removed the Canon position of a mid-range accessible body is a smart one, and while it's not perfect, a good entryway to FF Mirrorless for those that didn't jump yet, and a sign of very exciting things to come. I'm happy enough with that. Seems a lot of people aren't.


----------



## Mac Duderson (Sep 6, 2018)

reef58 said:


> I certainly don't know this business you describe, but from what little I do know and what I have read neither the Nikon nor Canon releases would be optimal for shooting weddings. Are you talking video only or stills and video? Most reviewers have indicated the Nikon's focusing was not optimal. That would concern me for a paid wedding shoot. But that is me.



I hear you but I have never really had much trouble with focusing since the 5D1 on. Most of my weddings (bluecoralphotography com) I'm still shooting EOS1V film cameras anyhow so anything newer is amazing for me haha! I use my 5D3's for low light.
But yes I'm mostly thinking video with these new cameras and commercial work (overoceanmedia com).


----------



## Mac Duderson (Sep 6, 2018)

drama said:


> I would assume that as the 24-70 2.0 and the 50mm 1.2 are both unstabilized, that a stabilized body is coming. When however, remains to be seen. It certainly won't be in the next six months, given the hype around this launch. They'll want to let the R breathe for a bit.



Yes I think your right. I think another body will be coming out so I will have to wait. I would love it if its a low MP body around 24mp (eat less HD space) and nice low light camera. Guess we can only wait and see.


----------



## jjesp (Sep 6, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Quite frankly, If I want a small camera SYSTEM, I'm going with an M or a 4/3..... What good is a smaller camera that really isn't smaller?
> View attachment 180192



Well I agree. I have my Fuji's and love them for their size and great sharp compact primes. So that is fine. But I really like the files and the handling on my Canon 6D. Actually their is something magic with the raw files on the old 6D.... But I often just let the Canon stay at home, because of the weight and size. So really hoped for a new Canon mirrorless that was smaller - and especially with the new mount and new range to the sensor - small and compact lenses. 
I mainly do street and reportage style photography. So it would have been so nice. I will now instead wait and hope for a Fujifilm x-pro3. The new sensor on the X-T3 looks promising. And their new autofocus seems to be much better than on the x-pro2.


----------



## Bennymiata (Sep 6, 2018)

For all those people who say they won't be buying the R because it doesn't have 4 card slots (at least 1 of each type of card) or some bird called an ibis, there will be many thousands of others that WILL happily buy it for the fabulous photos it takes because the colours are so good, and focussing is so fast and accurate and because it never overheats and the lenses are just so good.
Together with some new and innovative controls, many tens of thousands of people will just love to own it.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 6, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> Why blame Canon for this? If the other brands are so great, why aren't they eating Canon's market-share (and lunch)? Instead of criticizing Canon for being complacent, you should criticize the other companies for failing produce products that take market-share.


When I look at the world. I see humans as flawed and need guidance. Do you believe an imperfect population can make all the perfect choices. Brand name, marketing, and loyalty go a long way. Canon does a great job and makes good products but they could be doing way more we all know this.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 6, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> When I look at the world. I see humans as flawed and need guidance. Do you believe an imperfect population can make all the perfect choices. Brand name, marketing, and loyalty go a long way. Canon does a great job and makes good products but they could be doing way more we all know this.




So its the old argument that 'if people knew what I knew they would see I am right'. The poor deluded people unable to make up their own minds as to what they think is important in a camera.

Question: how do you know you are not one of the 'flawed people who need guidance'?


----------



## traveller (Sep 6, 2018)

jjesp said:


> But why? Beside the EVF, the great thing is that mirrorless could be smaller. They even did make a new mount. And then the lenses are so big.... Come on Canon!
> View attachment 180189


I don’t think it’s fair to compare an old double-gauss lens design to the modern high performance 50mm designs we see these days. You could make the same comparison between the Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art and the Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM and ask Sigma “what are you doing? Your lens is huge!”. If you took the trouble to shoot them both wide open and look at the results, you wouldn’t even need to zoom in to 100% to see the difference, the 50mm Art is in a different league. The Canon 50mm EF f/1.2L actually resolves pretty similar to the EF 1.4 at equivalent apertures. 

A more interesting comparison would be to other mirrorless 50mm designs, but as the major manufacturers have only released 50mm f/1.8 lenses so far, we don’t yet have a fair point of comparison.


----------



## traveller (Sep 6, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> Seeing that I have a c100 and a c200 and a 5div and 5dsr and 5diii. I would put out a lot of money for more features , better image quality, and most of all , have them in a nice convenient package if possible. If you work a lot like me you get tired of lugging around a bunch of different cameras because of the extremely inconvenient segmentation Canon has implemented in order to get the best images. This camera is a step forward but I just think it is a too late for such features. Lets worry about ourselves. the consumers. They have billions we don't. Canon reminds me of Nintendo during the n64 era. They just do things their way while Sony (coincidence), went into a more advanced direction. Nintendo fans defended everything Nintendo said and did like keeping cartridges over discs, then when they switched to discs the same fanboys praised them again even though like 6 years ago they hated cd-rom.



I’m sure Canon has another mirrorless full frame camera coming soon that will be targeted at people just like you. Just don’t complain when the want $4000+ for it, like Sony want for their A9.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 6, 2018)

traveller said:


> I’m sure Canon has another mirrorless full frame camera coming soon that will be targeted at people just like you. Just don’t complain when the want $4000+ for it, like Sony want for their A9.


i dont complain about money if the more I pay gives me more function and build quality. I would buy a low priced medium format if i thought the features and af were up to current standards of cameras less than half the price. Basically when it comes to technology, I believe more money should equal less compromise.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 6, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> So its the old argument that 'if people knew what I knew they would see I am right'. The poor deluded people unable to make up their own minds as to what they think is important in a camera.
> 
> Question: how do you know you are not one of the 'flawed people who need guidance'?


 No it's not that. People just go against their own interests to support things or people they are familiar with. Remember when they put C Log in the 5D IV. Do you not think that was the result of people asking for it or complaining about the lack of it.


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 6, 2018)

Random Orbits said:


> So what is the naming convention going forward? I would have preferring this camera being called the R6 or something like that. What would the 5DIV mirrorless counterpart be named?


They did the same thing with the "M".

I guess it tells us that at launch Canon are not yet sure of where this spec of the first "R" is going to sit in the future hierarchy of their FF mirrorless models.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 6, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> No it's not that. People just go against their own interests to support things or people they are familiar with. Remember when they put C Log in the 5D IV. Do you not think that was the result of people asking for it or complaining about the lack of it.



So people bought the 5DIV without C-Log against their best interests? I bought it but without C-Lo even after C-Log was introduced - I don't do video so did I buy it against my own interests? 
People buy the Sony even though they have a really poor touch-screen function. Ar they buying against their own interests, or do they just have different priorities?

People know in full what features a camera has and to tell them they are buying the wrong thing is really patronising.


----------



## PerKr (Sep 6, 2018)

Sporgon said:


> They did the same thing with the "M".
> 
> I guess it tells us that at launch Canon are not yet sure of where this spec of the first "R" is going to sit in the future hierarchy of their FF mirrorless models.



Or they didn't want to tell us.

If considering this a 6D-level body, I'd expect a 5D-level body before April 30th 2019 and a 1D-level body in time for the summer olympics (or possibly, right after, with cameras supplied to chosen photographers during)


----------



## criscokkat (Sep 6, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> Too bad Canon still operates as if it doesnt have competition outside of itself. It's the end of 2018 and we still have cropped 4k, no 4k 60p, and no 1080p 120fps on a 3/4 year old sensor with an AA filter. Do we have to wait until 2022 for something better when by then I am sure technology will be miles ahead from every other brand and even in phones.



My hunch is that a lot of people will be upset when camera #2 is released with the RF mount. It might just be a C series camera. The f2 lens looks perfect for video and they can introduce a non cropped mode for that.


----------



## onelifesoliveit (Sep 6, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> And a 28-70 f2!, and a native 50 f1.2. The R is obviously a mid range camera but the system is looking very very interesting. Native adapters with added functionality like filter use, heck it's worth getting one just to use variable ND filters with the 11-24 for video use! Or the new programable function adapter. 10 bit C-Log in a 6D MkII equal camera! A 5D MkIV sensor for over $1,000 less money. Lots to like system wise so far.
> 
> For me the Canon FF mirrorless system is offering a decent number of unique features that make it stand out.
> 
> Anybody that uses the phone argument when relating to ff sensors clearly doesn't actually shoot 4k video with larger sensors.



28-70 f2 is a lens with no IS and a huge price tag. Period.
50 f1.2 is huge and it is very expensive for a 50mm.
ND filters are meaningless at this point because it is impossible to shoot video with this camera in 4k with 1.67 crop if you don't have a superwide lens.
Yes, you buy a 5DMkIV sensor for over $1.000 less BUT the lens you are talking is 4 years old! I wouldn't pay such a price to old technology.


----------



## criscokkat (Sep 6, 2018)

PerKr said:


> Or they didn't want to tell us.
> 
> If considering this a 6D-level body, I'd expect a 5D-level body before April 30th 2019 and a 1D-level body in time for the summer olympics (or possibly, right after, with cameras supplied to chosen photographers during)



They will certainly have a 1D level body in time for the olympics. They will also have at least one pro level C style camera with an RF mount by then. I guarantee that is circled on everyone's timeline at Canon.

Of course, Sony wants to make sure their Pro service is up and running full speed by that time too. It'll be interesting to see what happens with that. Sony does seem to be listening to what pro's want, I suspect their next iteration of cameras will be the start of refining what they already have in place (spending time with ergonomics, etc). So far it's strictly been about features. Unfortunately nothing introduced so far by Canon or Nikon has provided any competition with significantly new features, with the exception of the control ring on the R lenses. This will allow Sony to work on refining things, like out of the camera color and ergonomics. The color is there, if someone takes the time in post. Ergonomics is just refining what they already have for the most part - most of the complaints are how difficult it is to shift modes on their cameras quickly. If they are not spending all of their time shoehorning in new code for new features they will have time to circle back and improve what's already there.

...and everyone is ignoring whatever panasonic/olympus is getting ready to unveil with their open standard lens partnership on a new full frame system. It'll be interesting!


----------



## KirkD (Sep 6, 2018)

Complaining about the size of fast lenses is like complaining about the laws of physics that govern space-time, matter, and energy. If one wants a fast lens that does not have any significant vignetting, then physics says you will need a large diameter glass opening to gulp all that light. If you want all the colours to focus at the same point, then physics says you will need to add some lens elements. Bottom Line: you want extremely high optical quality, then physics says you want big lenses. There is no point in whining about big, heavy lenses if you want extreme quality. Looking at the MTF charts for these new lenses, I have to say that I'm impressed. I'm not impressed, however, with no IBIS .... unless the lack of IS on those two top lenses (50-1.2 and the f2 zoom) strongly implies that the "pro" mirrorless version will have IBIS.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 6, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> They will certainly have a 1D level body in time for the olympics.


They will certainly want to. But if they won't be able to deliver the same AF tracking burst performance in a mirrorless camera, it might still be an SLR.


----------



## criscokkat (Sep 6, 2018)

Kit. said:


> They will certainly want to. But if they won't be able to deliver the same AF tracking burst performance in a mirrorless camera, it might still be an SLR.


The oita plant is supposedly updating one of their fabs right now to a much smaller geometry. I'm pretty sure most of the ARM chips in the DIGIC systems are at most 2 core, and are made at something like 40nm process (the latest chips in your phone or PC are made at 7-12nm).

If this is a more modernly sized fab line there (something under 15nm) they could easily solve any heat issues/throughput issues in the ARM chips for data processing. The auto focus tracking/prediction is processed using these chips, and the extra processing that it takes to differentiate an object from the background in dual pixel autofocusing is most likely what is limiting it. The sensor light receptors will continue to be made at the larger sizes because of physics of light. But the rest of the sensor has room for improvement - they have patents on processes that make stacked layers at different sizes. That could also make a huge difference in power consumption (and therefore heat).


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 6, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> 28-70 f2 is a lens with no IS and a huge price tag. Period.
> 50 f1.2 is huge and it is very expensive for a 50mm.
> ND filters are meaningless at this point because it is impossible to shoot video with this camera in 4k with 1.67 crop if you don't have a superwide lens.
> Yes, you buy a 5DMkIV sensor for over $1.000 less BUT the lens you are talking is 4 years old! I wouldn't pay such a price to old technology.



Doesn't sound like you are living your life!

The 28-70 f2 is unique, with or without IS. Unique.

The RF 50 f1.2L price, $2,299, is just over half the price of the Zeiss Otus 55mm f1.4 @ $3,999. If you can't play with the big boys don't cry in public, the price of this kind of gear is high, it has always been high and will always be high.

The 1.67 crop is easy to deal with as anybody who has worked with it on the 1DX MkII, I have the EF 11-24 but the Tamron 15-30 has VC and very well rated and gives a video popular effective 24mm fov for a lot less money. Actually as you can use EF-s lenses the options could well be much broader and cheaper.

I don't understand your last point.


----------



## jalbfb (Sep 6, 2018)

For now I'm holding tight onto my 5D4. The EOS R line will be interestng to watch as it develops. For me, I'll wait for Mark II or even Mak III versions. You've got to give Canon credit for some unique and innovative things with its first dip into the mirrorless pool, like the three different attachment rings, R lens 3rd ring, etc.I don't do any vlogging and rarely if ever use video, so I really don't get excited or disappointed with those features. I'd like to see Canon come out with a pro-style stills only mirrorless, but like I have said, I'll wait for later versions to see if that happens. Kudos to Canon for springing this surprise on everyone.


----------



## cayenne (Sep 6, 2018)

Mac Duderson said:


> MAN!! I'm so bumbed about this camera and I'm usually positive when everyone is negative about a camera release.
> But the only 3 things I want Canon didn't do in this camera and EVERYONE else is.
> IBIS - WHY Canon!? Why can't you do it. Even Nikon's lowest body has it!!
> 1080 @ 120fps - WHY??
> ...


Please pardon what is likely a stupid questions....

But if you have stabilization in the lenses already, why do you need it in the body?

What does it matter where the stabilization takes place?

Just curious.....

TIA,

cayenne


----------



## cayenne (Sep 6, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> For the reason Canon state, the opportunity to make better glass. The R/RF line is about uncompromising glass, not size, the M line is about size. The RF 50 f1.2 is supposed to be markedly better in the IQ department than the EF version.
> 
> Personally I'm not interested in either of the above, my interest lies in the 'pro' R model and using the 11-24 on it with the filter adapter for video and the 35 f1.8 for walk around. The R is looking like a vloggers dream, if the 'pro' version has more frame rate options and more MP I'll be getting one.




I've been watching review videos, and a couple of folks have hinted at Canon putting out a higher end "R" model, more like the 5D series.

Have you heard of any time frame for this to be announced? I couple of rumors seemed to be fairly soon, like before or in early 2019?

I'd love to jump to a new version, but I want something more along the 5D level....and I too like dual cards.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 6, 2018)

No nothing that I know of, I'm in no rush and am happy to let the first adopters shake the system down


----------



## cayenne (Sep 6, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> No nothing that I know of, I'm in no rush and am happy to let the first adopters shake the system down




Yeah, in most things, I generally don't get the 1.0 version of things...I let them age a little.

But this is all VERY interesting stuff, I think I like the direction its going and by the time I'm ready to buy, I think a bit higher end version should be available with more features I'm looking for.

C


----------



## padam (Sep 6, 2018)

With the EOS M, they just started to add numbers to the later models.
But this can be different with letters added as well, like a model focused on resolution, focused on speed, etc.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 6, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> No it's not that. People just go against their own interests to support things or people they are familiar with. Remember when they put C Log in the 5D IV. Do you not think that was the result of people asking for it or complain about the lack of it.





Mikehit said:


> So people bought the 5DIV without C-Log against their best interests? I bought it but without C-Lo even after C-Log was introduced - I don't do video so did I buy it against my own interests?
> People buy the Sony even though they have a really poor touch-screen function. Ar they buying against their own interests, or do they just have different priorities?
> 
> People know in full what features a camera has and to tell them they are buying the wrong thing is really patronising.


 You are a little too defensive to get the point. C log is an example of people acting noticing something important was missing and they spoke up which is what we should do as a consumer. Otherwise a brand would have no incentive to innovate or add features, just because because you believe you personally dont need it as if your needs reflects the entire photographic community. Your Sony example is terrible. that could just be boiled down to a few reasons from material costs to just not being able to do a good touch screen but i bet they will fix it if more people would complain (if it really is a problem i have little experience with sony cameras). It's not like Sony is saying " We will give them a crappy screen so they can buy an a9, but not make it that great so they can buy an fs7, but not make the FS7 too good so they have to buy an FS5 as well." That's how I feel about Canon's way of selling products. I forgot to add, the against interests part is about defending such a practice and not demanding the most.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 6, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> You are a little too defensive to get the point. C log is an example of people acting noticing something important was missing and they spoke up which is what we should do as a consumer. Otherwise a brand would have no incentive to innovate or add features, just because because you believe you personally dont need it as if your needs reflects the entire photographic community.



I totally agree with what you say in that post.
I read your response to orangutan as being that people did not buy other brands because they needed guidance, and you followed that up by saying that people bought these brands against their best interests i.e. they were buying something that was not best for them because of Canon's marketing. So I was pointing out that they were fully aware that Canon (for example) did not include C-Log and still bought Canon which suggested the Canon list of compromises was better than the (e.g.) Sony list of compromises.

Now, whether Canon responded by adding C-Log to make it an even better product is a completely different issue.



RayValdez360 said:


> Your Sony example is terrible. that could just be boiled down to a few reasons from material costs to just not being able to do a good touch screen but i bet they will fix it if more people would complain (if it really is a problem i have little experience with sony cameras). It's not like Sony is saying " We will give them a crappy screen so they can buy an a9, but not make it that great so they can buy an fs7, but not make the FS7 too good so they have to buy an FS5 as well." That's how I feel about Canon's way of selling products.


How do you know Sony don't do it? Do they put the same EVF/LCD in the A73 as in the A9? Nope.
Every company does it.




RayValdez360 said:


> I forgot to add, the against interests part is about defending such a practice and not demanding the most.


Who is defending it? Understanding is not the same as complicity - if it were there would be an awful lot of criminal psychologists in prison!
And this point is made by so many so often that everyone must be aware of it and yet they still buy Canon so it is clearly not an issue in the real world beyond forums.


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 7, 2018)

jjesp said:


> But why? Beside the EVF, the great thing is that mirrorless could be smaller. They even did make a new mount. And then the lenses are so big....



Have a look at that white paper. Canon made an effort to explain it, lens by lens.
TLDR? The RF 50/1.2 is optimized for optical performance, and it was consciously not optimized for size. You cannot have both. Neither Sony nor Canon will change the laws of optics.

It is true that mirrorless lenses could be smaller. Many of them are. It is "horses for courses".


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 7, 2018)

bbb34 said:


> Have a look at that white paper. Canon made an effort to explain it, lens by lens.
> TLDR? The RF 50/1.2 is optimized for optical performance, and it was consciously not optimized for size. You cannot have both. Neither Sony nor Canon will change the laws of optics.
> 
> It is true that mirrorless lenses could be smaller. Many of them are. It is "horses for courses".


Exactly!

As has been said countless times before, if you want a small lens, you want it for a crop image circle, or you want it to be slow....


----------



## rishi_sanyal (Sep 8, 2018)

woodman411 said:


> Let's not give DPR and Rishi more attention, they are a thinly veiled anti-Canon review site who overemphasize Sony strengths (his obsession with dynamic range is just one example) while glossing over their weaknesses. Funny in this video it is Chris who mentions that Canon R will focus wide open stopped down, a critical Sony weakness never mentioned in Rishi's Sony reviews. Canon makes cameras for usability first and foremost. That means emphasis on auto-focus speed and accuracy, ergonomics, UI and menus, responsive and fully articulating touchscreen, closing the sensor when changing lenses, etc. Things that are not exciting for review sites, but important for real world use.



Funny that other sites are calling me the anodyne one trying to be diplomatic and apologetic for Canon while Chris is the one speaking the harsh truth about the Canon in this video.

Just for the purposes of setting the record straight instead of letting wildly inaccurate assertions live uncontested here:

I'm actually the one who tested wide open autofocus and made sure we made a point of it in the video, but we each broke up the points to make it a discussion. Chris only prompted me, b/c that's how the live discussion flowed at that moment (I'd explained it previously to him), but I explained it and indicated why it's great. Yet I'm the one who underplayed / overlooked it?

I'm literally the only person in the media that even brings the issue of stop down focusing up... And yet you accuse me of underplaying it? 

Ironically, I'm the one who constantly insists we criticise Sony's stop down focus on every Sony review (not sure how you miss it: it's a complaint in most all our Sony reviews, just take a look at our latest a7 III review: we have examples showing how it causes misfocused). I even mentioned the issue in our Nikon z7 content/video. 

Who else in the industry even knows this to be an issue? I'm the only person that keeps bringing it up, yet here I am accused of covering it up. 
Fascinating, the power of preconceived bias.

Who else in the media is even talking about the Canon focusing wide open? Only us. But we're the ones not bringing it to light?

In our upcoming content we'll also talk about how PDAF striping will never be an issue with DPAF. I'm sure many of you will think I will not have been harsh enough, but my job is to represent all photographic equipment in context, not take sides.

If any of you have genuine concerns or things you'd like tested, do please let us know and we will try our best.


----------



## rishi_sanyal (Sep 8, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> I'm expecting old Rishi boy to be still complaining that the new Canon body still can't read his mind on which of the 5655 focus points it should "automagically" select when in AI Servo.



Don't you worry, I will not disappoint!

In fact, I'll start right now. Canon's first and default AF mode in servo is 'Face+Tracking', with 'Auto' subject selection enabled by default.

Oh the irony...

But in case you want to choose one of those 5655 points yourself with your eye to the EVF, you'll either find yourself using the D-pad you can barely feel to move AF points one pixel at a time, taking you forever to get it anywhere, or defaulting to the button press plus two dials to move the point horizontally/vertically, or turn Touchpad AF on (it's off by default), configure it, then touch and drag to move the AF point which is unfortunately laggy and not nearly as precise as using an AF joystick.

Which they left out if this camera.

If anything, seems to be Canon is encouraging you to use the subject tracking capabilities of on sensor PDAF, which is smart, because it's getting so good.

The most usable AF method we found for faster action was to either just stick to center point that you don't move too much, and keep that over your subject. Or, my preferred way: Face+Tracking Servo mode, but with 'Initial Servo AF point in Face+Tracking' set to 'Initial AF point' as opposed to Auto (default). This way, you just place the center point (or wherever your AF point is) over your subject, then initiate AF and the camera will track it no matter where it moves. Fastest way to specify your subject, and DPAF does a pretty good job sticking to your subject. If it loses it, it only takes a fraction of a second for you to reframe to put your center point over your subject again and initiate AF again.

But make no mistake, it is nowhere as easy to quickly move your AF point around with your eye to the finder if your preferred way of working is to constantly move your AF point to keep it over your subject as they move or you recompose. I wish this weren't so, but then again the way this camera is set up by default and 'wants you to work' all point to Canon's recognition that subject recognition and tracking is the future.

And that is smart of them.


----------



## rishi_sanyal (Sep 8, 2018)

RGF said:


> Time will tell. I am a bit surprised that they said anything major positive about the camera as DPReview seems to have negative towards Canon



Don't believe everything you read on the internet 

Does 87% Gold for 5D IV and 89% Gold for 1D X II indicate negative bias against Canon on our part?

We try to be as unbiased as possible, while considering products against the entire marketplace (not just within one brand). Inevitably that means we'll disappoint some with some reviews, others with others.

Hopefully though, those looking for the information they need will get it in our reviews. And if you don't, please let us know in the comments. Thanks.


----------



## woodman411 (Sep 8, 2018)

rishi_sanyal said:


> Ironically, I'm the one who constantly insists we criticise Sony's stop down focus on every Sony review (not sure how you miss it: it's a complaint in most all our Sony reviews, just take a look at our latest a7 III review: we have examples showing how it causes misfocused). I even mentioned the issue in our Nikon z7 content/video.
> 
> In our upcoming content we'll also talk about how PDAF striping will never be an issue with DPAF. I'm sure many of you will think I will not have been harsh enough, but my job is to represent all photographic equipment in context, not take sides.
> 
> If any of you have genuine concerns or things you'd like tested, do please let us know and we will try our best.



Hello Rishi, yes I must have missed it in the a7r2 review, I stopped reading DPR reviews a while ago, because the Sony bias is so strong. It's there. Just because the 5d4 and 1dx2 got good DPR ratings and Sony reviews have their weaknesses listed, doesn't mean there is no bias (after all, if every Canon product got subpar DPR ratings and no Sony weaknesses were listed, the bias would be outright obvious). It's everything in-between - the content emphasis, tone, excitement and exuberance, or lack of. The perspectives and conclusions.

This video is a perfect example of Sony bias. After previewing a few Canon R features, both you and Chris *already conclude *that the Canon R is a "stop gap camera (primarily for existing Canon users)", since you claim "the bar is set by the best mirrorless", which I can only assume you mean... Sony. How is it you already came to that conclusion? (hint: starts with "b", "ia" in the middle, "s" at the end). Like I mentioned before, Canon puts usability and IQ first and foremost. I do too, but you don't. If you did, your reviews would be more like Bryan Carnathan's at the-digital-picture. Just one example: he rightly stated that Canon's anti-flicker technology is a "game-changer". Consistent exposure under inconsistent lighting. Kinda important. Kinda game-changing. DPR 5d4 review? Not one mention of this. Well, that's not true - you list it in the "Pro" section in the conclusions. That's it. No comment or care on this. Why? Because it's not important to you. You don't mention this as a "Con" in Sony reviews. You don't even mention how bad the anti-flicker works on the A7R3 like Bryan does. That's just one example.

But total confession time. I'm biased too. Because if someone gave me an a73 for free, I would ask for permission to sell it and buy a Canon R. Because I like Canon ergonomics and dislike Sony's ergonomics, especially for fast glass (again, something Bryan rightly showed and DPR did not). I like Canon is made in Japan and it's build quality. I love how Canon focuses (no pun intended) on usability, because the sensor closing when changing lenses is a game-changer, according to the countless Sony sensor-dust complaints. I like how anti-flicker works reliably. I like how... (I better stop... getting late).


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2018)

rishi_sanyal said:


> If any of you have genuine concerns or things you'd like tested, do please let us know and we will try our best.



I'd like you to post the RAW file, you remember the one with _"..impossible-to-control background scene of high contrast, and exposing to retain the sky meant that shadow brightening to make the foreground anything but a sea of black resulted in noise and banding, which you can see even in the 50% crop below."_

I'd like you to post it, but even though you post thousands of others I know you won't.


----------



## rishi_sanyal (Sep 8, 2018)

Yes, you did miss it as it was covered in our a7R II review. We make a bigger deal of it now though because at least the a7R II focused wide open in AF-S (so it was still quite good stopped down in low light), but the newer ones don't even do that. That was actually the first camera where we uncovered the behavior, prompting us to investigate further and then show the problems it causes in subsequent reviews.

If your accusations of bias are based on you not even reading our reviews and just believing angry rants you read here, then, that's unfortunate and I'm not sure there's much I can or should do.

We actually put usability and IQ (and AF and video) very high on our priority list, with the understanding that usability is somewhat subjective. It's part of why most of us at the event concluded that the camera itself is a bit of a stop-gap, though the system holds much promise.

But we all have our different weightings on priorities, which is why I hope our new scoring system with personalized scores will help.

Bryan and I had a great chat today - wonderful guy, with a similar set of priorities and dedication to education.

FWIW, I personally enjoyed shooting with the EOS R, and the new optics are phenomenal. These are exciting times for creatives.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 8, 2018)

rishi_sanyal said:


> not nearly as precise as using an AF joystick.
> 
> Which they left out if this camera.


Don't cross keys work as a surrogate for joystick, or aren't they fast enough?


----------



## Darecinema (Sep 8, 2018)

I have a 5D MkIV, a C300 Mk2 and a Sony A7S2 and have enjoyed shooting on my friend’s A9 but still found the 5D MKIV my preferred camera, but truthfully I’m brand agnostic. What drives me crazy is people talking about features that don’t exist on cameras and just damning a camera out of the gate THAT THEY HAVENT EVEN SHOT WITH. Dear god people. It doesn’t have 4K 60p??? Is there any other full frame DSLR that does other than the Canon 1DX Mark II? I don’t believe any Sony’s do but I could be wrong. I love my Sony A7S 2 but it’s utter shit for still photos on pro shoots which is why picked up the 5D Mark IV. So what would be awesome is more people talking about useful applications for this type of camera so we could start forming opinions on what would be a proper use for this particular tool. Sony A7s 2: awesome low light 4K full frame video beast with less than ideal skin tones (imo), very unreliable stills camera. Everyone complains about 5D Mark IV crop factor in 4K that it took me a month to realize there was no crop in FullHD and I just switched over to that because truthfully I was just shooting 4K because why not? But my clients really only want HD for bandwidth reasons and then I have no crop factor. Anyways late night rant, can’t wait to actually be able to hold the camera in a store and see how it feels. Probably will wait for the next iteration and keep building my EF glass library but damn that control ring looks sexy as f***.


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 8, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> I'd like you to post the RAW file, you remember the one with _"..impossible-to-control background scene of high contrast, and exposing to retain the sky meant that shadow brightening to make the foreground anything but a sea of black resulted in noise and banding, which you can see even in the 50% crop below."_
> 
> I'd like you to post it, but even though you post thousands of others I know you won't.



You've got no chance Private ! 

I now have a 5Ds and although the DR and malleability of the files at 100 ISO aren't up to the latest on chip ADC chips it's actually pretty close in practical terms. That image and comment in DPR was and still is a disservice to the general consumer looking for a very high res camera because the image must have been taken twenty to thirty minutes after sundown, so it was dark, and the sky (the light source itself ) was under exposed. No camera would have lifted that data well.


----------



## rishi_sanyal (Sep 8, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Don't cross keys work as a surrogate for joystick, or aren't they fast enough?



The directional pad? Apart from the fact you can barely even feel even you've clicked it (forget about operating it even with a light glove), the D-pad moves the AF point far too slowly to be useful. Just because you have 5655 selectable AF point positions certainly doesn't mean you should make them all available for user selection in general shooting... But... That's what they did.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 8, 2018)

rishi_sanyal said:


> The directional pad? Apart from the fact you can barely even feel even you've clicked it (forget about operating it even with a light glove), the D-pad moves the AF point far too slowly to be useful. Just because you have 5655 selectable AF point positions certainly doesn't mean you should make them all available for user selection in general shooting... But... That's what they did.


I'm not a fan of their new button layout and I hope they return to the proven one for a larger camera to follow, but theoretically they might turn the M-Fn button into a "jump" modifier for the cross keys. Could be done with a firmware update.


----------



## BillB (Sep 8, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> You are a little too defensive to get the point. C log is an example of people acting noticing something important was missing and they spoke up which is what we should do as a consumer. Otherwise a brand would have no incentive to innovate or add features, just because because you believe you personally dont need it as if your needs reflects the entire photographic community. Your Sony example is terrible. that could just be boiled down to a few reasons from material costs to just not being able to do a good touch screen but i bet they will fix it if more people would complain (if it really is a problem i have little experience with sony cameras). It's not like Sony is saying " We will give them a crappy screen so they can buy an a9, but not make it that great so they can buy an fs7, but not make the FS7 too good so they have to buy an FS5 as well." That's how I feel about Canon's way of selling products. I forgot to add, the against interests part is about defending such a practice and not demanding the most.


I guess "demanding the most" might work sometimes, but there are plenty of reasons to put out a firmware update on a camera, and I don't see how you are so sure you know why Canon and Sony did what they did.


----------



## BillB (Sep 8, 2018)

Darecinema said:


> I have a 5D MkIV, a C300 Mk2 and a Sony A7S2 and have enjoyed shooting on my friend’s A9 but still found the 5D MKIV my preferred camera, but truthfully I’m brand agnostic. What drives me crazy is people talking about features that don’t exist on cameras and just damning a camera out of the gate THAT THEY HAVENT EVEN SHOT WITH. Dear god people. It doesn’t have 4K 60p??? Is there any other full frame DSLR that does other than the Canon 1DX Mark II? I don’t believe any Sony’s do but I could be wrong. I love my Sony A7S 2 but it’s utter shit for still photos on pro shoots which is why picked up the 5D Mark IV. So what would be awesome is more people talking about useful applications for this type of camera so we could start forming opinions on what would be a proper use for this particular tool. Sony A7s 2: awesome low light 4K full frame video beast with less than ideal skin tones (imo), very unreliable stills camera. Everyone complains about 5D Mark IV crop factor in 4K that it took me a month to realize there was no crop in FullHD and I just switched over to that because truthfully I was just shooting 4K because why not? But my clients really only want HD for bandwidth reasons and then I have no crop factor. Anyways late night rant, can’t wait to actually be able to hold the camera in a store and see how it feels. Probably will wait for the next iteration and keep building my EF glass library but damn that control ring looks sexy as f***.


But if we all waited until we tried the camera, what would we reading now?


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2018)

rishi_sanyal said:


> Yes, you did miss it as it was covered in our a7R II review. We make a bigger deal of it now though because at least the a7R II focused wide open in AF-S (so it was still quite good stopped down in low light), but the newer ones don't even do that. That was actually the first camera where we uncovered the behavior, prompting us to investigate further and then show the problems it causes in subsequent reviews.
> 
> If your accusations of bias are based on you not even reading our reviews and just believing angry rants you read here, then, that's unfortunate and I'm not sure there's much I can or should do.
> 
> ...



Then simply posting the RAW file would be very educational, helpful and show that you truly did make an honest representation of the exposure and capabilities of the camera.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2018)

Sporgon said:


> You've got no chance Private !
> 
> I now have a 5Ds and although the DR and malleability of the files at 100 ISO aren't up to the latest on chip ADC chips it's actually pretty close in practical terms. That image and comment in DPR was and still is a disservice to the general consumer looking for a very high res camera because the image must have been taken twenty to thirty minutes after sundown, so it was dark, and the sky (the light source itself ) was under exposed. No camera would have lifted that data well.


Of course not. Dedication to education only goes so far.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 8, 2018)

Unfortunately it's back to the waiting game with Canon. This EOS-R has a huge crop in 4K, sub-par codec, terrible rolling shutter, and no usable slo-mo mode. All of this, and more, is available in the competition.
One wonders if Canon just can't compete in mirrorless video. All the wonderful build quality, ergonomics and great lenses don't make up for the technical inferiority. This article lays it all out... https://www.eoshd.com/2018/09/dishonest-misleading-unnecessary-eos-r-and-cropped-4k/


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2018)

Etienne said:


> Unfortunately it's back to the waiting game with Canon. This EOS-R has a huge crop in 4K, sub-par codec, terrible rolling shutter, and no usable slo-mo mode. All of this, and more, is available in the competition.
> One wonders if Canon just can't compete in mirrorless video. All the wonderful build quality, ergonomics and great lenses don't make up for the technical inferiority. This article lays it all out... https://www.eoshd.com/2018/09/dishonest-misleading-unnecessary-eos-r-and-cropped-4k/


Except that graphic is not truthful. I'm not interested in whatever 'information' is contained thereafter, anybody that is that dishonest in their opening has an axe to grind.

First image is theirs.
Second image is there crop copied and repositioned.
Third image is an actual 1.7 crop.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2018)

The more I think about it the more annoying I find that representation.

Under the headline "Dishonest" and "Misleading" they have a dishonest and misleading banner image.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 8, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> Except that graphic is not truthful. I'm not interested in whatever 'information' is contained thereafter, anybody that is that dishonest in their opening has an axe to grind.
> 
> First image is theirs.
> Second image is there crop copied and repositioned.
> Third image is an actual 1.7 crop.



You might not like their graphic, or their headline, but their criticisms are 100% valid.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 8, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> Funny, I was doing some video of classic cars and the shiny grills displayed kind of weird, which I assume would be even worse without the filter (I'm new to video). Likewise I've shot Cedar waxwings and strange patterns seem to appear in their feathers, again, I believe this would be worse with no AA filter. So, maybe it's not as one sided as it seems. I don't have any objection to the crop factor on my 1Dx2.
> 
> Jack


Moire is worse with low density sensors - the higher the megapixels, the less intrusive the Moire because the Moire is being pushed to higher frequencies. I did a lot of shots of waxwings with both the 5DIV and the 5DSR and had similar Moire on both.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2018)

Etienne said:


> You might not like their graphic, or their headline, but their criticisms are 100% valid.


I find video centric sites that constantly criticize stills centric cameras video specs tiring.

I do a little video now, if it takes up more of my workload I'll get gear better aligned with my needs. The new R is the only FF equipped camera that shoots 4k and has a full tilt swivel screen, for a certain video subset that is huge, add in the DPAF and Canon colors and the fact you can shoot EF-s ultra wide lenses with that video crop and it points to a camera with a range of very positive video features. If you dig deeper, find me a camera that uses a bigger sensor area to collect 10 bit 4:2:2 4K in BT.2020 and Log as clean unlimited time HDMI out, then we can compare video specs.

Yes some criticism is valid, a lot isn't and is just click bate.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 8, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> I find video centric sites that constantly criticize stills centric cameras video specs tiring.
> 
> I do a little video now, if it takes up more of my workload I'll get gear better aligned with my needs. The new R is the only FF equipped camera that shoots 4k and has a full tilt swivel screen, for a certain video subset that is huge, add in the DPAF and Canon colors and the fact you can shoot EF-s ultra wide lenses with that video crop and it points to a camera with a range of very positive video features. If you dig deeper, find me a camera that uses a bigger sensor area to collect 10 bit 4:2:2 4K in BT.2020 and Log as clean unlimited time HDMI out, then we can compare video specs.
> 
> Yes some criticism is valid, a lot isn't and is just click bate.



The EOS-R has some good features, but Canon claims that it is video-centric. That's a tall claim for a camera with quite a few video shortcomings.
I really like the swivel screen, DPAF, and colors, but super-cropped 4K with unwieldy file sizes? That's a bummer. Bad rolling shutter, and no proper slo-mo going into 2019? Those are pretty big thorns in the side, especially in a Camera billed as videocentric and that may not see a replacement until 2022. 
The A7 III looks like tops still, or maybe the A7s III will be announced shortly. 
The EOS-R will be great for a committed Canon guy, but it isn't the answer to the A7 III that I'd hoped.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2018)

So...... _"find me a camera that uses a bigger sensor area to collect 10 bit 4:2:2 4K in BT.2020 and Log as clean unlimited time HDMI out, then we can compare video specs."_

Or...find me a FF camera that shoots 4K with very good AF in video that has a full tilt swivel screen.

The R stands head and shoulders about all other video cameras for some specific users, trashing it because it doesn't do everything for everyone is ridiculous, even Canon call it a _"mid level camera"_, I'm more inclined to acknowledge the unique positives than get frustrated at the missing features. Show me another video camera that can shoot with a 28-70 f2.

If the specific feature set doesn't suit you fine, the R doesn't suit my uses, but I think it is a great mid level camera and very interesting system.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 8, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> I find video centric sites that constantly criticize stills centric cameras video specs tiring.
> 
> I do a little video now, if it takes up more of my workload I'll get gear better aligned with my needs. The new R is the only FF equipped camera that shoots 4k and has a full tilt swivel screen, for a certain video subset that is huge, add in the DPAF and Canon colors and the fact you can shoot EF-s ultra wide lenses with that video crop and it points to a camera with a range of very positive video features. If you dig deeper, find me a camera that uses a bigger sensor area to collect 10 bit 4:2:2 4K in BT.2020 and Log as clean unlimited time HDMI out, then we can compare video specs.
> 
> Yes some criticism is valid, a lot isn't and is just click bate.


Anyone that really does video professional isn't liking the crop. It just henders creativity. why are they selling all this expensive glass that is losing most of it's usuabilty when in 4k mode. You make a new mount but have to buy low quality efs lens to get the most out of the video modes. Remember this is 2018 , so this camera is supposed to be used until sometime in the next decade and 4k importance will only increase. If Canon can make a 12/14-24/28mm 2.8 that doesnt weight a ton and not cost an arm and a leg, it would be appreciated. Also I find there is a divide and a certain level of selfishness in forums. I see this as primarily a stills forum where a lot of members dont care much about video or the needs of professional video shooters. On the flip side outside of this forum, there is a TON of Canon hate that is over exaggerated. We just need to admit admit Canon makes compromised but extreme useful and balanced cameras.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 8, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> Anyone that really does video professional isn't liking the crop. It just henders creativity. why are they selling all this expensive glass that is losing most of it's usuabilty when in 4k mode. You make a new mount but have to buy low quality efs lens to get the most out of the video modes. Remember this is 2018 , so this camera is supposed to be used until sometime in the next decade and 4k importance will only increase. If Canon can make a 12/14-24/28mm 2.8 that doesnt weight a ton and not cost an arm and a leg, it would be appreciated. Also I find there is a divide and a certain level of selfishness in forums. I see this as primarily a stills forum where a lot of members dont care much about video or the needs of professional video shooters. On the flip side outside of this forum, there is a TON of Canon hate that is over exaggerated. We just need to admit admit Canon makes compromised but extreme useful and balanced cameras.


Because the R is a mid level stills camera that shoots video, it is not a video camera that shoots stills. Why is that so hard to understand?

Canon make professional video cameras, they also make video centric cameras that also shoot stills, that isn't what this is.

I am and have been a professional stills shooter for years, I now do some video and the 1DX MkII does that well enough, if I need more I won't be looking for a stills orientated camera that has video functionality, EF or RF, I'll be looking at the C line with an EF mount.


----------



## BillB (Sep 8, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> Anyone that really does video professional isn't liking the crop. It just henders creativity. why are they selling all this expensive glass that is losing most of it's usuabilty when in 4k mode. You make a new mount but have to buy low quality efs lens to get the most out of the video modes. Remember this is 2018 , so this camera is supposed to be used until sometime in the next decade and 4k importance will only increase. If Canon can make a 12/14-24/28mm 2.8 that doesnt weight a ton and not cost an arm and a leg, it would be appreciated. Also I find there is a divide and a certain level of selfishness in forums. I see this as primarily a stills forum where a lot of members dont care much about video or the needs of professional video shooters. On the flip side outside of this forum, there is a TON of Canon hate that is over exaggerated. We just need to admit admit Canon makes compromised but extreme useful and balanced cameras.


Well, there are a couple of pretty good EF 16-35's out there now that can be used with the new R. What is wrong with them?


----------



## woodman411 (Sep 8, 2018)

rishi_sanyal said:


> If your accusations of bias are based on you not even reading our reviews and just believing angry rants you read here, then, that's unfortunate and I'm not sure there's much I can or should do.



As I mentioned, I used to read DPR, and I watched your video in this OP, so my feelings are based on what I see directly, not hearsay.



rishi_sanyal said:


> Bryan and I had a great chat today - wonderful guy, with a similar set of priorities ...



If that was true, DPR and TDP reviews would be similar. They are not. Not even close.



rishi_sanyal said:


> FWIW, I personally enjoyed shooting with the EOS R, and the new optics are phenomenal. These are exciting times for creatives.



I have no doubt you can see positives in various brands. My point is, there is a big difference when one believes a brand is at the top, by your own admission, and that Canon should aspire to Sony. This belief comes out in subtle but substantial ways in DPR. A belief that I don't share, and something I gratefully don't see with Bryan (and Dustin Abbott and others).


----------



## RayValdez360 (Sep 8, 2018)

BillB said:


> Well, there are a couple of pretty good EF 16-35's out there now that can be used with the new R. What is wrong with them?


i am saying it is weird not to have RF ultra wide zoom at launch since that is what you will need to comfortably do 4k. A roadmap would be nice to see. i did forget about the EF 16-35 since it overlaps 24/28mm. My bad.


----------



## Darecinema (Sep 8, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> Anyone that really does video professional isn't liking the crop. It just henders creativity. why are they selling all this expensive glass that is losing most of it's usuabilty when in 4k mode. You make a new mount but have to buy low quality efs lens to get the most out of the video modes. Remember this is 2018 , so this camera is supposed to be used until sometime in the next decade and 4k importance will only increase. If Canon can make a 12/14-24/28mm 2.8 that doesnt weight a ton and not cost an arm and a leg, it would be appreciated. Also I find there is a divide and a certain level of selfishness in forums. I see this as primarily a stills forum where a lot of members dont care much about video or the needs of professional video shooters. On the flip side outside of this forum, there is a TON of Canon hate that is over exaggerated. We just need to admit admit Canon makes compromised but extreme useful and balanced cameras.


Actually I’m a video professional and the 4K crop isn’t a deal breaker mainly because I know that there isn’t a perfect camera out there for everything that I do, so I have different cameras to cover different strengths. I have dozens of clients who insist that I DONT shoot 4K. Odd right? So I use full HD and get gorgeous full frame from the 5D Mark IV, when I’m shooting passion projects where I do want 4K no crop out comes the A7SII. But here ultimately is the reason I won’t switch to Sony at this point: the range of lenses (which they are catching up on) and the almost freaking magical handling of focus in video mode on the Canon DPAF systems. As a working pro, I evaluate each tool strengths and weaknesses. And if I find one that pays for itself for a job, I get it. I know at some point I’ll be picking up an EOS R, not this one, but the pro level one so I can start exploring the EOS R Lens system. In the meantime what I want from Canon is that the large format sensor tech in the C700 makes it way down to the C300 price category. And in a couple years I know it will. In the meantime, I’ll happily use what I have to continue making money and buying new tools that solve specific problems. And buying more lenses because that’s where the real investment is anyways.


----------



## rishi_sanyal (Sep 9, 2018)

woodman411 said:


> I have no doubt you can see positives in various brands. My point is, there is a big difference when one believes a brand is at the top, by your own admission, and that Canon should aspire to Sony. This belief comes out in subtle but substantial ways in DPR. A belief that I don't share, and something I gratefully don't see with Bryan (and Dustin Abbott and others).



I have never said I believe one brand is at top, nor that Canon should aspire to Sony. And I apologize if anything I've said might be construed as such. 

In fact, some of my best work has been shot on Canon. That's partly because I've shot Canon most of my life, but also because something about the image quality of Canon is, well, just inspiring. 

There are many things wrong with Sony (or other mirrorless cameras): let's start with invisible AF points, lagginess that costs me shots, etc. But overall they offer a set of features, performance, and even customization and ergonomics (I can't operate the EOS R with even light gloves, for example, and the buttons still have unnecessary restrictions on what can be assigned) that, in a positive sense, push the entire industry forward.

Similarly, the ergonomics and certain AF features and color science (and more) of Canon and Nikon DSLRs have pushed Sony cameras forward.

It's a two way street, and, for the record, I do not think that any one camera or brand is better or best for every photographer. Things are far more nuanced.


----------



## woodman411 (Sep 9, 2018)

rishi_sanyal said:


> I have never said I believe one brand is at top, nor that Canon should aspire to Sony. And I apologize if anything I've said might be construed as such.



May I ask what you meant in the video (@ 8:20): "the bar is set by the best mirrorless right now and some of these cameras fall quite short of this bar in many respects" ? 

Did I misunderstand that "these cameras" refer to Nikon and Canon, and "the bar" is Sony?


----------



## martti (Sep 9, 2018)

I watched Sue Bryce (the Kiwi portrait wizard) do a one-hour workshop on posing (like for portraits) using the 'R' with a 50mm f/1.2 that she had received the day before. She just did it. Once she mentioned that the eye focus simplifies her work, another time it took her two seconds to get the eye focus to trace. That's it. That's how it should be. You do your thing and the equipment should attract as little attention as possible. Unless, of course, your thing is selling equipment.
Looks like Canon has a product that does what Canons do best: Pictures.


----------



## AuroraChaserDoug (Sep 9, 2018)

martti said:


> I watched Sue Bryce (the Kiwi portrait wizard) do a one-hour workshop on posing (like for portraits) using the 'R' with a 50mm f/1.2 that she had received the day before. She just did it. Once she mentioned that the eye focus simplifies her work, another time it took her two seconds to get the eye focus to trace. That's it. That's how it should be. You do your thing and the equipment should attract as little attention as possible. Unless, of course, your thing is selling equipment.
> Looks like Canon has a product that does what Canons do best: Pictures.



So, the EOS R camera body was released as a complement to the perfect lens, the new RF 50mm F/1.2 L.


----------



## martti (Sep 9, 2018)

AuroraChaserDoug said:


> So, the EOS R camera body was released as a complement to the perfect lens, the new RF 50mm F/1.2 L.


She never missed a beat. The pictures are fabulous, of course. She is back to her 5D4 now. Probably it was just a publicity stunt.
Whatever, the camera/lens combination plugged in her studio lights and her normal workflow as if it had always been there. 
If it is good enough for her, it must be pretty good.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 9, 2018)

woodman411 said:


> May I ask what you meant in the video (@ 8:20): "the bar is set by the best mirrorless right now and some of these cameras fall quite short of this bar in many respects" ?
> 
> Did I misunderstand that "these cameras" refer to Nikon and Canon, and "the bar" is Sony?



Oh, oh, here we go .... I love CR for the humour.

Give Rishi a break. He tries hard to be more or less neutral and if he isn't 100% it's because he doesn't sense the nuances occasionally. I was almost in tears reading all the bashing he got after the early R comments.  However, from the other point of view maybe DPR has nurtured Sony fangirls/boys and the comments reflect their anger for being let down.

Jack


----------



## Mac Duderson (Sep 10, 2018)

cayenne said:


> Please pardon what is likely a stupid questions....
> 
> But if you have stabilization in the lenses already, why do you need it in the body?
> 
> ...


I'm not really sure what would happen if you have IS in both the body and lens at the same time but I would really like it in body because I only shoot primes and none of them has IS. I would love it if the lenses has IS but i don't think Canon will do that any time soon.
So IBIS is my best hope.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 10, 2018)

Mac Duderson said:


> I'm not really sure what would happen if you have IS in both the body and lens at the same time but I would really like it in body because I only shoot primes and none of them has IS. I would love it if the lenses has IS but i don't think Canon will do that any time soon.
> So IBIS is my best hope.



Canon and Panasonic combine in-lens and IBIS to give another 1-1.5 stops of stabilisation to an already insanely good functionality (but Panasonic only have in-lens IS on primes longer than about 25mm. Olympus only have in-lens on their telephotos).


----------



## RGF (Sep 10, 2018)

rishi_sanyal said:


> Don't believe everything you read on the internet
> 
> Does 87% Gold for 5D IV and 89% Gold for 1D X II indicate negative bias against Canon on our part?
> 
> ...



I can bias a rating by weighting or down weighting different features. I would like to see the rating sites, give ratings for Action, stills, ... They could say these factors are weighted XYZ. If I have a different need I should be able to change the weighting. For example a landscape photographer might not need AF or high ISO but does need good DR at low (base) ISO while a nature / sports photographer needs AF and high ISO but would seldom shoot at low ISO.


----------



## martti (Sep 10, 2018)

Mac Duderson said:


> I'm not really sure what would happen if you have IS in both the body and lens at the same time but I would really like it in body because I only shoot primes and none of them has IS. I would love it if the lenses has IS but i don't think Canon will do that any time soon.
> So IBIS is my best hope.



Having two stabilizers trying to do the same thing sounds like a perfect starting point for a feedback loop.
But they have it figured out. The lBIS does three axes and the lens IS the remaining two.
See DPR guru answer the question behind the link.


----------



## martti (Sep 10, 2018)

BTW it is remarkable how beautiful the EOS R sample pictures are on the DPR site.


----------



## rishi_sanyal (Sep 10, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Glad to see old Rishi boy still shoots expensive cameras using its default shooting configuration, while expecting the camera to read his mind on where it should focus...



?

In our first impressions video, I literally say that Canon shooters will have to customize / setup the AF on the camera before use... (because it's not set up be default to easily choose your AF point with your eye to the finder, unless you're used to the old Canon way of selecting your AF point using a button in combination with the front/rear dials)... Implying I obviously customized it myself before shooting.

'Read his mind on where it should focus' -- this indicates to me you're unfamiliar with what subject tracking is. *I* choose my subject, not the camera, it's just that with a proper implementation of subject tracking I can choose my subject faster than the time it takes you to move your AF point over to your subject for the composition you have in mind.


----------



## rishi_sanyal (Sep 10, 2018)

martti said:


> BTW it is remarkable how beautiful the EOS R sample pictures are on the DPR site.



Almost as if I could pick up the camera and just make it work for me...  

Thanks, by the way. Glad you enjoyed them. More to come. It really is lovely how easy it is to edit Canon files in ACR/Lightroom. Select 'Camera Standard' as the profile and the colors, well, just work. Requiring minimal post-processing.


----------

