# Has Canon developed a new 21mp sensor for the Canon EOS R system? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 8, 2020)

> Canon Watch is reporting that Canon has developed a new 21mp full-frame sensor and suggests we may see it in an upcoming EOS R camera.
> *New sensor specifications:*
> 
> 21MP full-frame sensor (6.4um)
> ...



Continue reading...


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## CvH (Oct 8, 2020)

120fps? How long does it take to fill up a 2TB CFexpress card?


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## toodamnice (Oct 8, 2020)

How many dBs of DR does the R5's sensor have?


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## canonnews (Oct 8, 2020)

for video maybe.. but doesn't makes sense for stills.


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## Mark3794 (Oct 8, 2020)

I actually read something like this in a chinese forum before canonwatch reported this rumor. I'm pretty sure the source read this in the same place as me. I think it's pretty much fake, 120db are something like 20 stops of DR


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## Kit. (Oct 8, 2020)

Global shutter on a stills camera sensor? Seems fake.


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## Gazwas (Oct 8, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> 120db are something like 20 stops of DR


Triple gain sensor (?) if such thing is possible.
All seems about as real as the Nikon Z9 specs from yesterday.


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## H. Jones (Oct 8, 2020)

Okay so, while I would love a resolution upgrade to my 1dx Mark II for an EOS-R1, I would be *more* than happy to accept 21 megapixels with a global shutter. 

That would be huge. Global shutter would totally get rid of any silent shutter artifacts, get rid of the weird electronic first-curtain bokeh artifacts, would make all images easy to anti-flicker without banding since the entire image area is captured at the same time, and would be insane if you could pull off even something like 30-60 FPS raw 21 megapixel images. That would be a huge advantage over the EOS R5, so I think it would be a perfect way to spec a R1-series camera.


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## docsmith (Oct 8, 2020)

Sounds like a sensor for a R1 or a cinema line camera.

120 fps would be for video
Global shutter would eliminate warping/rolling shutter issues

But, 20 stops of dynamic range? Wow.


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## StandardLumen (Oct 8, 2020)

21mp is a strange number, because it's too low for stills in 2020 and beyond, but it doesn't match any normal video resolution. Still, if this is true, I assume this is going to be a hybrid camera that is really marketed more for video. An A7S III competitor that can one-up it with stills quality.


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## Aregal (Oct 8, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Global shutter on a stills camera sensor? Seems fake.


Global shutter would negate the need for a physical shutter, eliminate the effect of shutter-shake, and would offer new photography opportunities compared to a 1DxIII. This would also mean less moving parts needed for maintenance.


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## DBounce (Oct 8, 2020)

Sounds like this could be the sensor for the Canon R1; and if it is you can put me down for an immediate preorder. I skipped the 1DX Mk3 as I didn’t want to dump more money into EF bodies... so this would be perfect.


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## Sharlin (Oct 8, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Global shutter on a stills camera sensor? Seems fake.



Who said it will be for a stills camera? This sounds very much like a 6K cine camera sensor, even though Canonwatch, and all the commenters here seem to be instantly jumping on the R1 bandwagon. The 2/3" sensor that this is claimed to be based on is definitely designed first and foremost for video.


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## -pekr- (Oct 8, 2020)

20->21 for the 2021 - I know they try to keep that aligned, but that's just too low


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## David Hull (Oct 8, 2020)

toodamnice said:


> How many dBs of DR does the R5's sensor have?


That 120 dB is most likely what people like Bill Claff call "engineering" dynamic range. So you need to find out what the engineering DR of the R5 is (in stops) and multiply that by 6 dB / stop. So, without having the number handy for the R5, let's say it is 15 stops, that would be 15*6=90 dB.


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## BroderLund (Oct 8, 2020)

Wouldn't this be amazing in lowlight too, or just amazing DR in "normal" iso levels?


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## MiJax (Oct 8, 2020)

Makes sense, if I recall the Canon commercial 5MP global shutter sensor, already being sold, https://canon-cmos-sensors.com/3u5mgxsba-5mp-cmos-sensor-evaluation-kit/, has pretty much all of those specs. The rumor only adjusts for consumer-sized resolution and mentions a DR that I can't find on the commercial sensor. They been developing this sensor for years and I can fully see them ready to move forward. 

Even at 21MP this would crush all comers in the sports market, as well the cinema video sector. 16-20 stops of DR, high speed readout with zero rolling shutter... this would change the market, again. The kicker... they have the 5MP commercial sensor down to 3.4um, meaning they have the tech to push the resolution further, or at least should be fairly close to having it ready. Interesting time ahead.


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## Dragon (Oct 8, 2020)

David Hull said:


> That 120 dB is most likely what people like Bill Claff call "engineering" dynamic range. So you need to find out what the engineering DR of the R5 is (in stops) and multiply that by 6 dB / stop. So, without having the number handy for the R5, let's say it is 15 stops, that would be 15*6=90 dB.


The DXO analysis of the 1DX3 shows it having 6 stops of dynamic range at 102400 which is 10 stops below 100. That translates to 16 stops of total range for the sensor. To get to 20 they would have do something more than DGO, like an actual split sensor with different sensitivities. That could account for the relatively low output pixel count. Remember, the R5 is really a 90 MP camera when you take DPAF into account.


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## snappy604 (Oct 8, 2020)

probably fake, but damn global shutter would be nice.


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## jam05 (Oct 8, 2020)

EOS R1 or 1dx mirrorless will


StandardLumen said:


> 21mp is a strange number, because it's too low for stills in 2020 and beyond, but it doesn't match any normal video resolution. Still, if this is true, I assume this is going to be a hybrid camera that is really marketed more for video. An A7S III competitor that can one-up it with stills quality.


Explain your arithmetic and how it applies to a global shutter.


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## Andy Westwood (Oct 8, 2020)

Honestly there really isn’t anything wrong with 20PM cameras. Most of my work is for web-based clients, I’m sure this also applies to many photographers.

Yes, 45mp is nice for cropping it etc and I get this! Also, if you need to print big, but if not we all know there are advantages of a lower MP sensor.

I guess not everyone will agree with me, and I’m not a massive tech guy but I thought I’d give my humble opinion.


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## filmmakerken (Oct 8, 2020)

21MP is low for photography but is approximately 5.5K as a (3X2 ) video sensor. I can imagine Canon making a version of the C70 with 5.5K resolution.


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## TAF (Oct 8, 2020)

Still waiting (hoping) for a Foveon style layered sensor.

Would that design (three separate vertical layers) make it possible to have three separate readout circuits located in separate quadrants around the periphery (with the fourth quadrant for AF)? If so, that would permit much faster readout speed.

Maybe hopefully?


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## dwarven (Oct 8, 2020)

Dang, that would be quite a camera. Probably wouldn't have a mechanical shutter at all. Wasn't Sony rumored to be developing a camera with a global shutter? Canon probably wants to to beat them to the punch.


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## BakaBokeh (Oct 8, 2020)

A video oriented non-cinema R body. I like it.


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## marathonman (Oct 8, 2020)

Global shutter in R1 with 5.7K RAW 120FPS would be dope! EOSHD's fridge ain't big enuff.


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## privatebydesign (Oct 8, 2020)

This is the kind of advancement that is a logical extension for an R1. Global shutter, low resolution, and high DR. It will have unbelievable fps for stills and excellent 5.5/6k video and will finally allow a workflow Canon have been pushing for years of frame grab from 'video'* at 120fps minimum. The DR will mean strobes don't have to keep up with recycle times. 

I was wondering where the R1 was going to go as the rumors for the 'pro' Sony MILC and the Nikon 'pro' Z9 both have much higher mp than current 'pro' models, Sony's A9II, Nikon's D6, and the 1DX III all have close to 20/21mp. Canon have been pretty adamant that they see that 'pro' market body as being optimized at the 20mp mark for generations.

* I use the term 'video' as it would be in a video mode but shot with stills centric exposure settings to get sharp subject detail when they are moving quickly.


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## Kit. (Oct 8, 2020)

Aregal said:


> Global shutter would negate the need for a physical shutter, eliminate the effect of shutter-shake, and would offer new photography opportunities compared to a 1DxIII. This would also mean less moving parts needed for maintenance.


Global shutter as it is technically implemented requires base ISO increase (pixel's electron well depth decrease) by a stop.



Sharlin said:


> Who said it will be for a stills camera?


The combination of pixel pitch and pixel count.


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## slclick (Oct 8, 2020)

StandardLumen said:


> 21mp is a strange number, because it's too low for stills in 2020 and beyond, but it doesn't match any normal video resolution. Still, if this is true, I assume this is going to be a hybrid camera that is really marketed more for video. An A7S III competitor that can one-up it with stills quality.


I would have no qualms about shooting with 21 mp. When people say it's low for photography, this translates to low for marketing imho.


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## xps (Oct 8, 2020)

If this rumor is true, this sensor is an very biiiiiiig leap forward for Canon.

The A7SIII will - of course - be better than the A7SII´s sensor. But will it be 20 like this rumor suggests?
You can call it "A7SIII"-killer


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## melgross (Oct 8, 2020)

What camera today is a “stills” camera? The R5 8k video camera? Perhaps the 4K R6?


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## mb66energy (Oct 8, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Global shutter on a stills camera sensor? Seems fake.


Maybe If it is the R1-X supporting 30 to 40 fps a global shutter might be interesting for full electronic shutter - supporting high frame rates without jello and with very small shutter lag ... just an idea


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## bbasiaga (Oct 8, 2020)

slclick said:


> I would have no qualms about shooting with 21 mp. When people say it's low for photography, this translates to low for marketing imho.


This supposition stumped me as well (that 20mp isn't enough). Makes you wonder about all the media, print and digital, produced by the thousands upon thousands of 1D series cameras - all of which have hovered around the 20mp mark for a long time now. 

Certainly some advantage to be had with more, but to say it isn't enough is off the mark by a wide margin.

-Brian


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## Stuart (Oct 8, 2020)

If not fake, might it be a dedicated B&W sensor for security markets.


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## Czardoom (Oct 8, 2020)

Andy Westwood said:


> Honestly there really isn’t anything wrong with 20PM cameras. Most of my work is for web-based clients, I’m sure this also applies to many photographers.
> 
> Yes, 45mp is nice for cropping it etc and I get this! Also, if you need to print big, but if not we all know there are advantages of a lower MP sensor.
> 
> I guess not everyone will agree with me, and I’m not a massive tech guy but I thought I’d give my humble opinion.


As a photographer and not a tech guy, I couldn't agree more. Considering that I could take my 6 MP pics taken with my original digital rebel, and crop them to about 2/3rds size, and make an 8 x 10 print that is tack sharp, I do laugh at the notion that the majority of camera owners would need even 20 MP. What it shows more than anything is how gullible consumers are.

But all that aside, this rumor seems totally fake. I admit that I haven't looked up global shutter articles in the last couple years, but up until that time they were nowhere near making anything close to global shutter for a sensor even close to 21 MP. And the one drawback of a global sensor that was always mentioned was how it had less DR, not more. But, as I said, not a tech guy, so who knows.


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## magarity (Oct 8, 2020)

Camera MP are a lot like CPU Ghz used to be in the late 90's. Intel and AMD used to chase each other to the next 0.1 Ghz speed increase and brag loudly each increment. If your computer was more than 0.5 Ghz behind you felt like you had a clunker. But they hit 4Ghz around 2005 and since then haven't gone anywhere. Current models are all in the 3 to 4 Ghz range 15 years later.
20.x MP is the 3.5Ghz of camera tech.


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## SecureGSM (Oct 8, 2020)

magarity said:


> Camera MP are a lot like CPU Ghz used to be in the late 90's. Intel and AMD used to chase each other to the next 0.1 Ghz speed increase and brag loudly each increment. If your computer was more than 0.5 Ghz behind you felt like you had a clunker. * But they hit 4Ghz around 2005 and since then haven't gone anywhere. Current models are all in the 3 to 4 Ghz range 15 years later.
> 20.x MP is the 3.5Ghz of camera tech.*


That’s due to a well known technology limitation rather than a market decision.
20Mp in cameras is not a technology limitation.

www.maketecheasier.com/why-cpu-clock-speed-isnt-increasing/


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## zim (Oct 8, 2020)

Question please. Why would the type of shutter have anything to do with DR Isn't that defined by the sensor design?
Thanks for any insight, words of one syllable are preferred though


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## magarity (Oct 8, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> That’s due to a well known technology limitation rather than a market decision.
> 20Mp in cameras is not a technology limitation.


CPUs could still go faster but the focus has been on adding more cores. Cooling solutions exist to get around the complaints in that article but they're not really worth it compared to adding cores. The trade off for cameras is that frame rates are now what is being ramped up, not MP. A 100MP camera would have to make to with a 2 frame per second limit or somesuch. Instead, the 20.x MP cameras are going 12, 16, 20, and up.


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## Skux (Oct 9, 2020)

Global shutter lol, nah this is fake


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## David - Sydney (Oct 9, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> As a photographer and not a tech guy, I couldn't agree more. Considering that I could take my 6 MP pics taken with my original digital rebel, and crop them to about 2/3rds size, and make an 8 x 10 print that is tack sharp, I do laugh at the notion that the majority of camera owners would need even 20 MP. What it shows more than anything is how gullible consumers are.


Not sure if all consumers are gullible really but when looking at a spec sheet it is a clear item of distinction that they somewhat understand compared to other items eg ISO. Those aren't the customers for 1D/R5 series cameras but could be an issue for cameras like the R6.
There are definitely use cases for higher MP stills even if they aren't what your workflow needs. Yes, there is less need for prints compared to online resolution. Yes, you can take a shot with lower res that provides a great/sharp 8x10 print. Yes, we had no choice in the past about number of mp so made the most of what we had at the time.

The ability to crop heavily is very useful in situations where you cannot avoid getting closer or having an appropriate lens (can't afford it, didn't have it with you, can't change it to the better lens, etc) eg for birding or where I am shooting underwater with a 16-35mm lens and find something small to shoot but certainly doesn't fill the frame and clearly can't change to my 100mm macro setup 

8k video is clearly not for everyone but offers a lot of post-production options that aren't available in any other format. Getting 33mp jpeg stills at 30fps is something that wasn't possible before. The res of 4k frame grabs probably wouldn't be as useful.

If you had a choice of 20mp or 45mp when printing large then you would clearly prefer the latter if possible


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## tigers media (Oct 9, 2020)

Surely its the new M50 sensor !


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## SteveC (Oct 9, 2020)

tigers media said:


> Surely its the new M50 sensor !



All joking aside, I would hope not as the current M50 sensor has 24MP.


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## Mr Majestyk (Oct 9, 2020)

Oh this will definitely be the new R1 sensor, fits' in perfectly with them being locked in that 20MP range for their sports camera.


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## slclick (Oct 9, 2020)

Maybe it's for the R7. (Can we get the 7 thing rolling again?)


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## KenLLL (Oct 9, 2020)

toodamnice said:


> How many dBs of DR does the R5's sensor have?


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## amfoto1 (Oct 9, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


This would be a perfect sensor for an R1 top-of-the-line sports camera. 21MP is very close to the same resolution as 1DX II and 1DX III, not to mention D5 and D6. And a global shutter would be ideal for fast action. Could be virtually silent shooting too. 120 fps is insane, way more than necessary... But what the heck, as long as someone else does the editing! 20 stops of DR? What's the best out there now? 15 stops? Summer Olympics would be good time to roll out a camera like this. It would be a game changer!


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## CanonGrunt (Oct 9, 2020)

Sounds like a sensor for an RF mount c700 update....


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## ethanz (Oct 9, 2020)

Sorry if already answered, but why so much doubt around the global shutter?


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## masterpix (Oct 9, 2020)

21MP global sensor, that is going to be eye-sore! No more blurring of motion, reduce dramatically the shaking effect on the image, IS/IBIS will be (without any features) much better. The only fallback I see with it, is.. my bank account...


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## Pape (Oct 9, 2020)

I guess they wait this sensor before they release real macro lenses for R


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## Chris.Chapterten (Oct 9, 2020)

This definitely sounds fake. A global shutter negatively impacts dynamic range, so it's not really possible to have 20 stops of dynamic range and global shutter at the same time. Unless the global shutter can be deactivated?


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## Juangrande (Oct 9, 2020)

canonnews said:


> for video maybe.. but doesn't makes sense for stills.


I’m a stills only portrait photographer and I’m dying for a global shutter sensor for mixing daytime ambient and flash on location with out the need for ND filters, HSS, or HS. you could get away with very portable small lighting equipment or get maximum power from a 250-500w light. And 20 stops of dynamic range . But I would want FF and 45mp. 30mp minimum.


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## masterpix (Oct 9, 2020)

StandardLumen said:


> 21mp is a strange number, because it's too low for stills in 2020 and beyond, but it doesn't match any normal video resolution. Still, if this is true, I assume this is going to be a hybrid camera that is really marketed more for video. An A7S III competitor that can one-up it with stills quality.



Well, action photographers (which this sensor is targeting) and news photographers don't need more than 20MP. They need two thigns, fast capture and the baility to capture as many pictues in one long continous shooting. Most of their work goes to web sights and online news, there is no need for 45MP pictures here even if the computer screen is 8K. The rush to higher MP is based not on the actuall need of the photographer, rather than the will of the company to "be more" than others. for most people, there is no real differnce between 20 to 45MP. They see the picture on teh computer screen or TV, not creatine posters of them to hang over huge signboards.


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## Bennymiata (Oct 9, 2020)

Sensors are very interesting.
Glad I can't see any Sonys on the list.


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## GMCPhotographics (Oct 9, 2020)

StandardLumen said:


> 21mp is a strange number, because it's too low for stills in 2020 and beyond, but it doesn't match any normal video resolution.



??? 21MP is still a lot more than many sports photographers actually want. Wifi upload times at venue sports arenas is a big challenge and a lot of those photographers need small and easily managable files with minimal edits to get to press ASAP. In the wedding photography industry, it commonly accepted that more than 12mp is more than adequate. Most albums will have a max double page spread size of A3, or the album becomes too unmanagble. Most canvas purchase are in the A2 / A1 size and again it doesn't need high resolution to fill that frame size. If you are selling matted framed prints, then the print size is even smaller in the frame. Sure there's a strong argument for cropping space. But generally anything over the 20mp is still way more than adequate for the majority of professionals. 
Naturally there are those who need (or desire) the biggest sensor resolution that is currently available. But those photographers are not the norm. At some point we are all going to get to the point with sensor resolution where we all say...I think that is now way more than I need and I'm struggling to process that many images at that file size for the same output size that I have before!


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## Antono Refa (Oct 9, 2020)

CvH said:


> 120fps? How long does it take to fill up a 2TB CFexpress card?



( 2 * 1024 * 1024 ) / ( 120 * 21 ) = ~832 seconds, or nearly 14 minutes, assuming the whole sensor is used and no compression.

Is there a usage scenario for such a long slow motion video?


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## Hector1970 (Oct 9, 2020)

Just a personal opinion but I own a 5DIV and 5DSR. I acquired a 1DX III earlier this year. 20mp feels quite old fashioned. To me the 1DXIII processors and buffer are designed for a larger sensor. It could easily have been a 30mp sensor and it would have handled it. It may have been more for the video element they went for 20MP. I find it good for large objects but no good for small objects like birds. It would have been a much better all round camera at 30MP.


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## StandardLumen (Oct 9, 2020)

I don't understand all of the opinions that 21mp is as much or more than you'd ever want. I'm not saying that action photographers necessarily need 45mp+ this instant (there's a big gap between 21 and 45), but "the current standard is good enough, it doesn't need to improve" is not how technology works. I can't help but think of the old "640K ought to be enough for anybody" quote.

I'm sure there are some photographers out there that take huge numbers of images and are constantly filling their storage medium, or rely on real-time WiFi transfer of a large number of images and that are really being bottlenecked by file size, but as we move into the future, all of our technology should continue to improve, and that includes image quality. (And yes, I realize that higher resolution is not all there is to better image quality, but it's definitely part of it. And yes, I reject the idea that lower resolution means inherently better low light performance). Even for those photographers, scaling down to ~20mpx is likely to produce equally good if not better results than using a 20mpx sensor, similar to the R5's high quality 4K video, which scales down from 8K and produces exceptional image quality. 

I'm welcome to being wrong about this, I'm aware that different photographers have different needs. If Canon believes that there are enough photographers out there that will still buy a new, high-end, stills-focused camera with a 21mp sensor for it to be profitable to make, I'm sure they'll have you covered. It just seems to me that if someone really doesn't want more than 20mp, no one is taking the 1DX Mark III away.


I'm not pretending to be an expert on camera design, nor do I know what Canon's plans are, but I'm still guessing that, if real, this sensor is intended for a hybrid camera that has good quality stills and can film 6K, rather something like an R1.


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## GMCPhotographics (Oct 9, 2020)

Juangrande said:


> I’m a stills only portrait photographer and I’m dying for a global shutter sensor for mixing daytime ambient and flash on location with out the need for ND filters, HSS, or HS. you could get away with very portable small lighting equipment or get maximum power from a 250-500w light. And 20 stops of dynamic range . But I would want FF and 45mp. 30mp minimum.



....lol...you don't want much then do you!


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## GMCPhotographics (Oct 9, 2020)

StandardLumen said:


> I don't understand all of the opinions that 21mp is as much or more than you'd ever want. I'm not saying that action photographers necessarily need 45mp+ this instant (there's a big gap between 21 and 45), but "the current standard is good enough, it doesn't need to improve" is not how technology works. I can't help but think of the old "640K ought to be enough for anybody" quote.
> 
> I'm sure there are some photographers out there that take huge numbers of images and are constantly filling their storage medium, or rely on real-time WiFi transfer of a large number of images and that are really being bottlenecked by file size, but as we move into the future, all of our technology should continue to improve, and that includes image quality. (And yes, I realize that higher resolution is not all there is to better image quality, but it's definitely part of it. And yes, I reject the idea that lower resolution means inherently better low light performance). Even for those photographers, scaling down to ~20mpx is likely to produce equally good if not better results than using a 20mpx sensor, similar to the R5's high quality 4K video, which scales down from 8K and produces exceptional image quality.



The 1DX range is a very specific tool for a specific groupof buyers. It's not intended to be a general "Pro / Semi Pro / Very serious Enthusiast" camera. It's designed to scratch the itch of photojournaists and ports photographers...ie press photographers. That's the market that drives that camera. Back in the day, the 1D was available in 2 guises...slow fps and highest MP that curent tech would allow and the other camera was a highest frame rate that current tech would allow and low MP. The former was full frame and the latter was a 1.3x crop. Canon consolidated these two cameras into the 1DX. They then upspecced the 5D series (5D3) to a pro spec and offered that as their general use "Pro / Semi Pro / Very serious Enthusiast" camera. The 5D3 and 4 are the most versatile digital cameras available and in the hands of more pro photographers than all off the other cameras in the world put together...and that's not including the videographers too. 
Every time Canon hand a prototype 1Dx series camera into the hands of a press photographer...the resounding reply is WE DON't WANT MORE THAT 20mp!!! Sure more fps...any other feature...but limit the res so we can do our jobs quickly and effectively. Maybe this will change when we all drive electric cars with Wifi 2.0 / 5.5G enabled and venues can source super wide data paths over their wifi....but until then, there is a functional limit of 20mp for these venues. It's a case of the business need is stipulating the technology. Super High MP Pro series cameras don't actually sell that well. Look at the 5DSR's sales figures. No where near as strong at the 5D3 or 5D4. 

As a landscape photographer, good and sharp rendered images from a 5D3 are more than sufficient. I'm able to exstract fantastic detail at 100% with my 22ish mp sensor with a tripod and carefull technique. Blow up sizes for me (A0 max) is more than suffient. For my wedding work where I need to turn around images fast, 22ish MP is again more than suffient. A typical wedding can yield 4000 source images. A 15 hour shoot is common for me and using 2 photographers (myself and a 2nd) that's actually quite a low click per minute rate. From these 4000 images I have to import them into Light room...arrange the camera / stoot time to be the same betten multiple cards on 4-5 cameras. Then I need to select my 250 delivered images and post process them. I generallt have less than a week to do this while fitting in the rest of my photographic and domestic life and it's quite possible in peak season for me to shoot 3-4 weedings in a week. So processing / workflow / delivery times / storage / cataloging as all important business factors. For me, 24mp is ideal, 32mp is slightly more than I need and 50mp is just a pointless waste that will just much up precious Hard Disk space and Light Room processing time.

But that's just me...however, I am not unique in this and your milage might vary.


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## old-pr-pix (Oct 9, 2020)

Back to the rumor that it is a 2/3" sensor... that is one-half the dimensions of a micro four 'loser' thirds sensor and one-quarter the area. 2/3" sensor = 8.8mm x 6.6mm i.e. 4:3 format. The 2/3" reference relates back to the old video tube standards and how large a sensor they could fit on the flat portion a video tube of that diameter. The sensor itself isn't 2/3 of an inch. Just like a 1" sensor is no where near one inch in any dimension. A 1" sensor is smaller the m4/3 as well. Bash me if I'm wrong!


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## HarryFilm (Oct 9, 2020)

Uuuuuhm ... Cough Cough !!! Hint Hint !!!

I was right again!

V


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## HarryFilm (Oct 9, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> I actually read something like this in a chinese forum before canonwatch reported this rumor. I'm pretty sure the source read this in the same place as me. I think it's pretty much fake, 120db are something like 20 stops of DR



===

120 dB means they are sampling the pixels using a final output of 16-bits per colour channel which MEANS the DSP (Digital Signal Processor) is a 20-bit or even 24-bits DSP for proper output re-sampling purposes. This means the sensor is going into an R1dx series camera probably coming out just after the 2021 Tokyo Olympics likely in October/November 2021. The 1Dx3 will LIKELY be produced side-by-side with the fully mirrorless R1dx series probably until 2023 to keep the "analog shutter" newshounds happy.

When you have 48-bit RGB/YCC/YCbCr colour (i.e. 16 bits per colour channel) using GLOBAL SHUTETR then it means PRO-LEVEL stills and video work. This is AWESOME coming from Canon !!!!!

Can't wait to see it!

GLOBAL SHUTTER IS THE KEY FUTURE FEATURE of a ALL NEW mirrorless cameras! To make for the BEST image quality you REALLY DO MUST HAVE a global shutter sensor with 16 bits per colour channel sampling (i.e. 120 dB dynamic range for 48-bit colour) for your stills and video capture.

THIS IS FANTASTIC NEWS! Good on you Canon -- Now put that global shutter sensor into a RUGGEDIZED AND WATERPROOF-50-metres ACTION CAM with a high quality fixed or removable 16mm lens that's just a tiny bit larger than the latest GoPro and can do 120 fps Long-GOP H265 4K, 6k or 8k resolution video + audio onto TWO really-fast internal CFexpress cards!

...AND.....

can I now have my 135mm to 650 mm L-series f/4-to-f/5.6 Sports Zoom Lens for my upcoming Global Shutter 48-bit colour R1dx pro-level mirrorless camera ?!

V


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## canonnews (Oct 9, 2020)

Juangrande said:


> I’m a stills only portrait photographer and I’m dying for a global shutter sensor for mixing daytime ambient and flash on location with out the need for ND filters, HSS, or HS. you could get away with very portable small lighting equipment or get maximum power from a 250-500w light. And 20 stops of dynamic range . But I would want FF and 45mp. 30mp minimum.



yeah but that's really multi-exposure to some extent. because you have a combination of full well capacity (it has to hold enough electrons) and at the same time a high pixel density.

maybe some other material than silicone may work - who knows.

otherwise you are playing tricks with exposure.



SwissFrank said:


> Basically, every pixel on the sensor gets an electric charge when hit with a photon. These electrons are then stored in a capacitor. To read the image off the sensor, you read the resulting charge in the capacitors.
> 
> The Canon sensor described in the patent has TWO capacitors per pixel, and can globally switch between charge being built up in capacitor A or capacitor B.


you can only do that with two exposures, or a much longer exposure that does a charge reset part way through (essentially 2 or 3x times). basic electronics here. a pixel fills with electrons. those electrons are then moved to the capacitor and stored. there is no longer any electrons in the pixel. otherwise you have a perpetual energy machine, and i'd love to see that.

you need a subsequent shot to fill the other capacitor, you also need it at a different exposure time. any time you "slice" a time, you get ghosting. it's impossible to not get ghosting on a stills image no matter how quickly you take slices. while this isn't an issue for film at all (ghosting in film exposure is an entirely different animal which is what Canon was looking at with that white paper), it's a definite more hard issue for stills. which is why all these tricks are employed on what? cinema cameras. that discussion document that Canon did many small timeslices, but again, it would still have issues with stills photography. there's simply no way around this.

also if you have two capacitors per pixel and a corresponding light shield over your capacitors your overall quantum efficiency is quite low (literally 1/3). Again, canon has no BSI or stacked tech in production, so there's only so much real estate on a FSI sensor. So in instances where you have to turn this "off" your DR drops down to pre 2008 era sensors.

stacked sensors with quad pixel arrays are most likely the way to go around this overall but canon is certainly not there yet - probably 2 or 3 full generations away.


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## HarryFilm (Oct 9, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> This definitely sounds fake. A global shutter negatively impacts dynamic range, so it's not really possible to have 20 stops of dynamic range and global shutter at the same time. Unless the global shutter can be deactivated?




Actually, if your DSP/CPU/GPU System on a Chip Input/Output sampling (i.e. I/O) is 20 to 24 bits in sample size and the sensor size is 22 megapixels (as Canon has implied!) then the image processing rate is around 88 megasamples per frame (i.e. typical Canon 4 RGBG channel sampling x Total number of sensor pixels) used as an oversampling factor. Multiply 88 megasamples by 20 bits per channel to get the minimum clock speed per frame needed to create a final 48-bit RGB/YCC/YCbCr stills/video pixel. That works out to 1.76 Gigahertz which is right spot on for many higher end Qualcomm processors such as the Snapdragon 636 series which the Canon DIGIC-X is likely based upon, which runs at 1.8 GHz.

That still leaves CPU power available for other tasks, as the image processing would be done on the GPU part which can do as many as 512 parallel instructions per clock cycle giving the camera a theoretical maximum frame rate of 128 frames per second (i.e. 512 parallel instructions per clock cycle divided by number of channels to process per pixel which is RGBG or four channels in Canon's case = 128). In all likelihood this will mean 4K video at 60 fps and/or 120 fps or a burst stills rate of probably 25-to-30 fps at my best guesstimate!

The MATH is looking good so far because a Canon DIGIC-X SOC core-set that is Snapdragon 636-based is basically $75 per chip to make so it is an inexpensive part!

So yeah this is likely going into the R1dx and PROBABLY a new 4K 120 fps action cam or even an M50 mk3 or M5 mk2/3 camera.

V


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## HarryFilm (Oct 9, 2020)

old-pr-pix said:


> Back to the rumor that it is a 2/3" sensor... that is one-half the dimensions of a micro four 'loser' thirds sensor and one-quarter the area. 2/3" sensor = 8.8mm x 6.6mm i.e. 4:3 format. The 2/3" reference relates back to the old video tube standards and how large a sensor they could fit on the flat portion a video tube of that diameter. The sensor itself isn't 2/3 of an inch. Just like a 1" sensor is no where near one inch in any dimension. A 1" sensor is smaller the m4/3 as well. Bash me if I'm wrong!



Since it was alluded to that the photosite size is 6 microns at 22 megapixels, that means at a typical Canon 3:2 aspect ratio where there are 1000 microns per millimetre AND knowing that you NEED on-chip spacing for DSP circuitry, it looks like this is going to be a typical 36 mm by 24 mm FULL FRAME CMOS image sensor at around 5800 by 3866 pixels of native resolution (actual photo output resolution will be slightly smaller!) or about 22.4 megapixels!

THIS IS GREAT!

Good Job Canon!

Soooooo, when IS this Global Shutter 22 megapixel R1dx and the 135 mm-to-650 mm f/4-to-f/5.6 RF-mount L-series Sports Zoom Lens coming out for sale?

V


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## [email protected] (Oct 9, 2020)

Tasty developments Canon and Canon's coming very good now.

Not sure what's Canon plans are for this sensor, difficult to say with a shrinking camera market on how viable a new model will be.

They could put in a Compact EOS R (RC) (follow Sony A7c if Canon does this ?) or maybe possibly MK 2 of EOS RP ? (2022)


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## Antono Refa (Oct 9, 2020)

StandardLumen said:


> I don't understand all of the opinions that 21mp is as much or more than you'd ever want. I'm not saying that action photographers necessarily need 45mp+ this instant (there's a big gap between 21 and 45), but "the current standard is good enough, it doesn't need to improve" is not how technology works. I can't help but think of the old "640K ought to be enough for anybody" quote.



There are two camps here: 21MP is enough for some, and 21MP are enough for nobody.


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## domo_p1000 (Oct 9, 2020)

... importantly, (and presuming all these thoughts are accurate), 21MP is sufficient for many of the photographers for whom the R1dx is being designed.
I am certainly excited about the superb potential this sensor will bring. For those who want a 40+MP global shutter sensor, you will just have to wait for technology to advance that far.


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## RunAndGun (Oct 9, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Global shutter as it is technically implemented requires base ISO increase (pixel's electron well depth decrease) by a stop.



At this point, the benefits of global shutter outweigh the stop* less of sensitivity and/or DR.


*technological advancements are quickly closing this gap. one just has to look at recent announcements and releases in the video/cine world with global shutter CMOS sensor cameras.


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## canonnews (Oct 9, 2020)

RunAndGun said:


> At this point, the benefits of global shutter outweigh the stop* less of sensitivity and/or DR.
> 
> 
> *technological advancements are quickly closing this gap. one just has to look at recent announcements and releases in the video/cine world with global shutter CMOS sensor cameras.


those advancements don't translate well to stills, you simply can't get around the fact that video is recording over time with the world in motion around us, while stills photography is shooting that world in motion and stopping time to do so.

Canon could have put in a global shutter sensor into a stills camera years ago if they weren't concerned with dynamic range / quantum efficiency. if they are going to do it now, they would most likely come out with a EOS-R5c versus anything else.


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## Busted Knuckles (Oct 9, 2020)

Could the R1 be the top of line of the convergence of stills to video - 120 fps is a common desire for 2k, 4k and now 6k. 120fps is in line w/ top of line functions.

I would also expect some serious WIFI/LAN ability to offload files quickly. Thinking this is for the Olympics, and image consumption is primarily web/TV 21 mp provides some framing relief for 4k and 6k. 

The low light ability is very interesting. My guess that the db expansion is more toward the low light side vs. high. Physics in glass is harder to solve, so improved low light allows smaller lenses, etc. It would be giggle city to pick up 2 or 3 stops of low light. all of a sudden that 400 f5.6 looks pretty darn handy. compared to the 400 2.8.


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## SecureGSM (Oct 9, 2020)

magarity said:


> CPUs could still go faster but the focus has been on adding more cores. Cooling solutions exist to get around the complaints in that article but they're not really worth it compared to adding cores. The trade off for cameras is that frame rates are now what is being ramped up, not MP. *A 100MP camera would have to make to with a 2 frame per second limit or somesuch*. Instead, the 20.x MP cameras are going 12, 16, 20, and up.


righto.. so the 45Mm R5 would have to make it with 5 frames per second limit or some such according to your logic? it's a 20 fps capable camera.
again, you are incorrect, 20 MP is not a tech limitation but rather a designation at this stage.


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## MiJax (Oct 9, 2020)

old-pr-pix said:


> Back to the rumor that it is a 2/3" sensor... that is one-half the dimensions of a micro four 'loser' thirds sensor and one-quarter the area. 2/3" sensor = 8.8mm x 6.6mm i.e. 4:3 format. The 2/3" reference relates back to the old video tube standards and how large a sensor they could fit on the flat portion a video tube of that diameter. The sensor itself isn't 2/3 of an inch. Just like a 1" sensor is no where near one inch in any dimension. A 1" sensor is smaller the m4/3 as well. Bash me if I'm wrong!



Its based on a current (for sale) 2/3's, 5.5MP, 3.4um pixel, industrial high speed use (120fps), global shutter sensor. The pixel and sensor size suggest they could use this tech on MUCH higher consumer MP count applications. 

I feel like this is more of a when than an if. Will it debut in the R1, or will it be pushed further down the road to the next high end body? The fact that Sony is going to be close behind, as these things tend to all get "found out" at the same time as accompanying tech becomes available to clear past hurdles tells me we'll see it sooner than later.


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## canonnews (Oct 9, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> Tasty developments Canon and Canon's coming very good now.
> 
> Not sure what's Canon plans are for this sensor, difficult to say with a shrinking camera market on how viable a new model will be.
> 
> They could put in a Compact EOS R (RC) (follow Sony A7c if Canon does this ?) or maybe possibly MK 2 of EOS RP ? (2022)


depends on what you mean be a "c" .. a Sony "c' .. no, but a 5c (which in canon's terms is a video camera) they may.

There's no credible rumor that this is coming out for the RF mount. CanonWatch .. "theorized" that it was, the rumor was just that they created this sensor.


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## canonnews (Oct 9, 2020)

MiJax said:


> Its based on a current (for sale) 2/3's, 5.5MP, 3.4um pixel, industrial high speed use (120fps), global shutter sensor. The pixel and sensor size suggest they could use this tech on MUCH higher consumer MP count applications.
> 
> I feel like this is more of a when than an if. Will it debut in the R1, or will it be pushed further down the road to the next high end body? The fact that Sony is going to be close behind, as these things tend to all get "found out" at the same time as accompanying tech becomes available to clear past hurdles tells me we'll see it sooner than later.


Sony's global shutter sensors are far more advanced than Canon's. The two aren't even on the same planet right now. Canon doesn't even have the facilities to mass-produce a stacked sensor such as what Sony is doing. While Canon has impressively caught up to stills performance, Sony's experience and R&D into stacked sensor design has given them a huge lead in this area. The impressive part is that Canon has had to work much harder to improve their sensors because their fabrication capability has fallen behind.

Canon's high DR sensors are all around video related applications. End stop. Every patent. Usually it's about automotive applications these days.
There's nothing out there that suggests these patents (or tech) will every be used for stills cameras.

Everyone's racing away with this, but no one stated this was going into an EOS R camera. No. One. CW guessed that maybe it may, but it was just a guess.


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## MiJax (Oct 9, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Sony's global shutter sensors are far more advanced than Canon's. The two aren't even on the same planet right now. Canon doesn't even have the facilities to mass-produce a stacked sensor such as what Sony is doing. While Canon has impressively caught up to stills performance, Sony's experience and R&D into stacked sensor design has given them a huge lead in this area. The impressive part is that Canon has had to work much harder to improve their sensors because their fabrication capability has fallen behind.
> 
> Canon's high DR sensors are all around video related applications. End stop. Every patent. Usually it's about automotive applications these days.
> There's nothing out there that suggests these patents (or tech) will every be used for stills cameras.
> ...



I think people put too much stock in the stacked sensor design. Canon proved there are other ways to skin that cat, even if they are not as efficient. As far as guessing Canon might bring a tech they've been selling for years, I don't think it was ever a big stretch to see this coming. I personally threw it on my wish list for the R1 months ago when the expected drop was 2022-23. Same as the uber mega pixel 5Ds style sensor and camera pending. Some of this stuff is very obvious when you look at the past development trends.


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## canonnews (Oct 9, 2020)

MiJax said:


> I think people put too much stock in the stacked sensor design. Canon proved there are other ways to skin that cat, even if they are not as efficient. As far as guessing Canon might bring a tech they've been selling for years, I don't think it was ever a big stretch to see this coming. I personally threw it on my wish list for the R1 months ago when the expect drop was 2022-23. Same as the uber mega pixel 5Ds style sensor and camera pending. Some of this stuff is very obvious when you look at the past development trends.



There are fundamental core reasons why stacked is better for global shutter - it's not just a "nice to have", the fact is that unless you either go BSI, or you go stacked because you only have so much silicone space. On a normal sensor for efficiency, you need all that space taken up for photodiode wells. Anything that gets in the way of that will cost you stills dynamic range performance. That's just well, physics. Sony's done several different novel solutions (and even Canon has come up with a few) but all of them are based upon stacked designs. Usually three-layer designs so you can incorporate memory. Canon's done more R&D on global shutter stacked designs than global shutter non stacked designs. To get around using stacked you have to use novel solutions such as time slicing. but it's imperfect for both video and stills. you can get around it in video by making the slices smaller and smaller, but that's still not a good solution for stills.

To get too stacked sensors, Canon first has to develop a BSI sensor. They haven't even gotten that far yet. So no, when looking a "past development trends" there's really nothing out that that suggests Canon is about to shove a global shutter sensor into what is a stills camera first and foremost.


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## Kit. (Oct 9, 2020)

RunAndGun said:


> At this point, the benefits of global shutter outweigh the stop* less of sensitivity and/or DR.


It's the stop less of highlights recovery (given the same photon shot noise on the subject).



RunAndGun said:


> *technological advancements are quickly closing this gap.


I don't see how. The piece of silicon is able to hold just that many electrons due to Pauli exclusion principle.



RunAndGun said:


> one just has to look at recent announcements and releases in the video/cine world with global shutter CMOS sensor cameras.


Are you about being creative with numbers in specs?


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## MiJax (Oct 9, 2020)

canonnews said:


> There are fundamental core reasons why stacked is better for global shutter - it's not just a "nice to have", the fact is that unless you either go BSI, or you go stacked because you only have so much silicone space. On a normal sensor for efficiency, you need all that space taken up for photodiode wells. Anything that gets in the way of that will cost you stills dynamic range performance. That's just well, physics. Sony's done several different novel solutions (and even Canon has come up with a few) but all of them are based upon stacked designs. Usually three-layer designs so you can incorporate memory. Canon's done more R&D on global shutter stacked designs than global shutter non stacked designs. To get around using stacked you have to use novel solutions such as time slicing. but it's imperfect for both video and stills. you can get around it in video by making the slices smaller and smaller, but that's still not a good solution for stills.
> 
> To get too stacked sensors, Canon first has to develop a BSI sensor. They haven't even gotten that far yet. So no, when looking a "past development trends" there's really nothing out that that suggests Canon is about to shove a global shutter sensor into what is a stills camera first and foremost.



I've seen articles that mention the biggest deterrent to this tech (in 2017) was the inherent loss of DR, but nothing about Son'ys stacked sensor design. I imagine the stack sensor may be inherently better, but I haven't read anything that suggested it or similar tech was needed. I don't understand the tech well enough to know whether the stacked sensor poses any hindrances based on the architecture their global sensor, but I don't think that's a stretch either. 



> From the article, *GLOBAL SHUTTER IS COMING TO CANON DSLRS ...EVENTUALLY*, Written by George Shaw
> 
> From Canon, "..._However, its dynamic range is narrow. To solve this problem, Canon made two major improvements._ " The improvements Shaw refers to, "...Canon has improved this issue by doubling the saturated electrical charge coming off the photodiodes and then reading the data twice during processing. The result is that the sensor can read up to 16,200 electrons at 60 frames per second, while the original sensor data is 8100 at 120fps ".
> 
> Canon has also added a so-called “light guide structure,” which reflects more light onto the photodiodes in order to read the maximum amount of image data off the sensor. In order to accomplish this feat and not fall behind like their rolling shutter cousins, the new global sensor uses Canon's A-D (analog-digital) converter called "SSDG-ADC" to keep up. Both these improvements provide greater dynamic range, with less noise and under .45w of power consumption, easily better than a CMOS sensor reading the same image using rolling shutter.



Again, this is not a theoretical sensor, they have current distributors in place for the industrial CMOS sales now. This is tech that is well down the road with a little maturation. Unfortunately, I can't find the white paper Canon published on it a few years back, but I don't think that is necessary to prove the point. Canon has been busy.


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## YuengLinger (Oct 9, 2020)

What I've learned, after five pages here, is that 21 MP is not a deal killer. More to a camera than MP. 

Epiphany.


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## vignes (Oct 9, 2020)

GS sensor will come but it'll be expensive. so no surprises but GS sensor in R line up is questionable? people are complaining R5 is expensive so how is Canon going to price this. it most likely will end up in speciality product and high end cine line where they can ask for high price. I can see them putting this in R when competition like Sony start doing it and use GS sensor in their A9 series. Sony started doing this by using stacked sensor in A9 series and ask for a premium price. I can't see Canon using this in their 1DX equivalent R. they'll have to maintain a certain price point for this series. Canon might create a new series for R.


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## koenkooi (Oct 10, 2020)

SwissFrank said:


> [..] The microprocessor company ARM for instance subcontracts _all_ of its manufacture out. [..]



I have to step in here, Arm Ltd. sells designs and architecture licenses, they don't sell actual silicon. So Arm doesn't have any manufacturing to subcontract out. However, a lot of Arm licensees do use fab-less design, so they have e.g. TSMC produce the design they have licensed from Arm.


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## EOS 4 Life (Oct 10, 2020)

CvH said:


> 120fps? How long does it take to fill up a 2TB CFexpress card?


I do not hear photographers complaining as much about the cost of media as I do from videographers.
My theory is that film was expensive while videotape was pretty affordable.
Film is also one and done where CFExpress cards can be used over and over.


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## EOS 4 Life (Oct 10, 2020)

magarity said:


> Camera MP are a lot like CPU Ghz used to be in the late 90's. Intel and AMD used to chase each other to the next 0.1 Ghz speed increase and brag loudly each increment. If your computer was more than 0.5 Ghz behind you felt like you had a clunker. But they hit 4Ghz around 2005 and since then haven't gone anywhere. Current models are all in the 3 to 4 Ghz range 15 years later.
> 20.x MP is the 3.5Ghz of camera tech.


Now that has been replaced with nm.
People keep comparing Intel 10 nm, AMD 7nm, and ARM 5nm even though their architectures are so much different.


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## Joel C (Oct 10, 2020)

If a global shutter is coming, I'm going to have to consider purchasing new pants.


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## TracerHD (Oct 10, 2020)

First thought:
if I had to chose between an R5 and an R1 (21MP global shutter) I would go with the R1.


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## addola (Oct 10, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Global shutter on a stills camera sensor? Seems fake.



Global shutter will avoid banding when using flash, and allows much higher shutter speeds with flash.

In 2017, Canon published a research paper on that 2/3" sensor. It was published in an IEEE Journal, and titled "A 1.8e-rms Temporal Noise Over 110-dB-Dynamic Range 3.4 μm Pixel Pitch Global-Shutter CMOS Image Sensor With Dual-Gain Amplifiers SS-ADC, Light Guide Structure, and Multiple-Accumulation Shutter".

The rumors is very believable, but whether it is practical or ready for everyday use in a consumer product is another story.


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## Traveler (Oct 10, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Did you notice that the older post about the 2/3” sensor mentioned two numbers of the DR?
HDR of 111dB (18 stops – quite high number, too), and
NDR of 79dB which are more realistic 13 stops. 
Would it mean that the “real” DR of this new sensor would be also two stops higher, something around 15 stops?


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## addola (Oct 11, 2020)

Traveler said:


> Did you notice that the older post about the 2/3” sensor mentioned two numbers of the DR?
> HDR of 111dB (18 stops – quite high number, too), and
> NDR of 79dB which are more realistic 13 stops.
> Would it mean that the “real” DR of this new sensor would be also two stops higher, something around 15 stops?


I am a grad student, so I have access to the IEEE document for the 2/3" sensor. I can't share it for copyright concerns, but It seems that there are two modes: Multiple-Accumulation procedure and HDR procedure. The paper says: " As a result, the dynamic range increases from about 79 dB in 60 fps with the multiple-accumulation procedure to 111 dB in 60 fps for the HDR procedure. ".

I don't know what they mean by "multiple accumulation readout procedure", but it does sounds something similar to "stacked sensor"?

Who knows, but it will be huge if Canon put something like that into their product line.


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## Traveler (Oct 11, 2020)

addola said:


> I am a grad student,...
> ...The paper says: " As a result, the dynamic range increases from about 79 dB in 60 fps with the multiple-accumulation procedure to 111 dB in 60 fps for the HDR procedure. ".


That’s what I read in the screenshots, too. But does it mean that the HDR mode is something that doesn’t have any disadvantages or can it be something as unusable as multiple shots?


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## EOS 4 Life (Oct 11, 2020)

addola said:


> I am a grad student, so I have access to the IEEE document for the 2/3" sensor. I can't share it for copyright concerns, but It seems that there are two modes: Multiple-Accumulation procedure and HDR procedure. The paper says: " As a result, the dynamic range increases from about 79 dB in 60 fps with the multiple-accumulation procedure to 111 dB in 60 fps for the HDR procedure. ".
> 
> I don't know what they mean by "multiple accumulation readout procedure", but it does sounds something similar to "stacked sensor"?
> 
> Who knows, but it will be huge if Canon put something like that into their product line.


That does not sound like a stacked sensor.
HDR reads the sensor multiple times for each image frame.
My guess is that adding the signals from each readout together boosts the decibel amount.
I believe that is how it works with recorded sound so maybe recorded light works the same way.


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## Kit. (Oct 11, 2020)

addola said:


> Global shutter will avoid banding when using flash, and allows much higher shutter speeds with flash.
> 
> In 2017, Canon published a research paper on that 2/3" sensor. It was published in an IEEE Journal, and titled "A 1.8e-rms Temporal Noise Over 110-dB-Dynamic Range 3.4 μm Pixel Pitch Global-Shutter CMOS Image Sensor With Dual-Gain Amplifiers SS-ADC, Light Guide Structure, and Multiple-Accumulation Shutter".
> 
> The rumors is very believable, but whether it is practical or ready for everyday use in a consumer product is another story.


You won't get such a DR with such a pixel pitch on a stills sensor (without multiple exposure artifacts), global shutter or not. Physically impossible with the current technology.

On a video sensor, interleaving the ISOs of the adjacent video frames, it's possible. But no "shutter speeds with flash", of course.


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## EOS 4 Life (Oct 11, 2020)

Kit. said:


> You won't get such a DR with such a pixel pitch on a stills sensor (without multiple exposure artifacts), global shutter or not. Physically impossible with the current technology.
> 
> On a video sensor, interleaving the ISOs of the adjacent video frames, it's possible. But no "shutter speeds with flash", of course.


A global shutter would not eliminate HDR artifacts but it should greatly reduce them.
Combining entire frames in less challenging than combining individual lines.
HDR has more artifacts but it also has more detail.
Life is full of tradeoffs.


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## HarryFilm (Oct 11, 2020)

MiJax said:


> Its based on a current (for sale) 2/3's, 5.5MP, 3.4um pixel, industrial high speed use (120fps), global shutter sensor. The pixel and sensor size suggest they could use this tech on MUCH higher consumer MP count applications.
> 
> I feel like this is more of a when than an if. Will it debut in the R1, or will it be pushed further down the road to the next high end body? The fact that Sony is going to be close behind, as these things tend to all get "found out" at the same time as accompanying tech becomes available to clear past hurdles tells me we'll see it sooner than later.



---

I actually REMEMBER using 1 inch Plumbicon/Saticon Tube cameras that weighed 50 pounds (20 kg+) and more! We did 800 lines up to 1200 lines of vertical resolution. Quality-wise, if it wasn't for the blooming/streaks (i.e. blobs and streaks of white showing up near bright highlights), the quality of the tube cameras was actually BETTER than modern HDTV 1080p CMOS or CCD camera resolutions!

There are companies that STILL sell Saticon tubes (for nightvision use) that go as a high as 12000 lines of vertical resolution (i.e. a 3 inch Saticon-style tube!) used for BOTH Optical Daytime AND night-oriented photo-multiplier purposes so the image quality IS OUTSTANDING since the formulations of the phosphors is now so advanced that blooming and streaking is now so low that it is basically non-existent and can be NOW FULLY REMOVED using modern software/hardware DSP algorithms.

Not many CMOS imagers have 12,000 vertical lines of resolution so in certain cases tube-based image sensors are used because they work VERY WELL in specific environmental conditions such as Space or NO Light Areas! Horizontally, these newest tubes on the X-axis, return about 16000 pixels if sampled properly -- The Y axis is easier to sample than the X axis on a tube-based image sensor because of basic analogue circuitry issues due to analogue signal jitter, slew, rise-time problems! AND in some cases, the blooming and streaking of tube-based cameras IS a desired effect for capturing certain natural phenomenon better than any CMOS or CCD imaging system.

I have a few Plumbicon tubes from a 3/4 Inch camera system which I fire up once in a while! Still working GREAT since they were made in 1977!

V


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## HarryFilm (Oct 11, 2020)

MiJax said:


> I think people put too much stock in the stacked sensor design. Canon proved there are other ways to skin that cat, even if they are not as efficient. As far as guessing Canon might bring a tech they've been selling for years, I don't think it was ever a big stretch to see this coming. I personally threw it on my wish list for the R1 months ago when the expected drop was 2022-23. Same as the uber mega pixel 5Ds style sensor and camera pending. Some of this stuff is very obvious when you look at the past development trends.



---

There IS another image sensor technology out there beyond CMOS, CCD or even Tubes! It's on the patent and trade secret books of a certain series of firms here in Canada, USA, Europe and Japan and you COULD kinda call it a Double-Stacked sensor since it has BOTH onboard DSP/CPU circuitry AND the individual Red Green and Blue sensitive substrates NO LONGER EXIST like on CMOS imaging systems, but are rather MERGED into a single photosite multi-photon stream frequency-sensing mechanism. I would say it's WAAAAAY BEYOND Sigma's Foveon technology and has the advantage of NOT requiring the very-hard-to-manufacture multiple photosensitive substrates stacked one-on-top-of-each-other like Sigma Foveon needs!

That new technology is being perfected now by multiple boutique companies and SHOULD be on the market within five years. Because of the TYPE of electrical micro-circuitry it is, it's BASE DSP sample size is almost always set to 64-bits wide per colour channel and usually set to output a 32 bit Nyquist re-sampled bitwise value per RGB channel which can then can be truncated/rounded down to 16-bits, 14-bits 12-bits, 10-bits or 8-bits per colour channel with minimal processing time.

Soooooo, Sony, Philips, Canon, Teledyne-Dalsa, ON, NEC, etc are NOT the only games in town for high resolution image sensing technology -- There are some BOUTIQUE image sensor design and manufacturing houses that build VERY HIGH END imaging solutions that go WAAAAY beyond consumer technology!

Many in that circle ARE indicating that consumer-level applications WILL be entertained because the manufacturing costs can be NOW lowered enough to make it viable for this select group to apply these NEW imaging technologies to the broader consumer market segments. It also helps that some of the NEWER image sensing technologies have MUCH higher resolutions AND MUCH higher dynamic range than contemporary CMOS camera sensors so the BASE advantage makes it an obvious choice to start impinging upon the BIG BOYS of CMOS imaging (i.e. Sony, Canon, etc!).

V


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## HarryFilm (Oct 11, 2020)

SwissFrank said:


> Agreed, of course. I agree Arm's not a B2C company like Canon (or at least, Canon's EF and RF lines of cameras). Still, B2B, B2C, that's not really the core of my point. My point is that ARM designs stuff they can't manufacture. Apple designs stuff they can't manufacture. My personal work history involves Sony, Fujitsu, Toshiba, Hitachi, all MAKERS of PALs, nonetheless designing quite a few PALs they didn't have the capability to make and thus outsourcing their manufacture to Motorola via my old firm Omron.
> 
> In fact you'd probably have a hard time finding a firm the size of Canon that DOES manufacture literally everything they design.
> 
> And yet while Canon's described a certain sensor in detail in papers, and we now have leaks of the coming manufacture of something fitting the papers' description... nonetheless the website owner is telling us that because *he personally* doesn't know that Canon has facilities to manufacture this part, therefore it is *absolutely utterly impossible* that the part is the part described in the paper. And insulting me for even suggesting it.



---

Since we actually DO HAVE CMOS and GaAs substrate manufacturing capability AND that the WORLD'S LARGEST ONE-PIECE CMOS SENSOR at 131,072 by 131,072 pixels (64-bit RGBA colour) on the world's LARGEST single-slab of etched 400 mm silicon was done RIGHT HERE in Vancouver, Canada, I think I can probably make a valid comment that Omron, Canon, Philips or ON Semiconductor DO HAVE the capability to manufacture whatever TYPES of image sensors they want AT THE SAME LEVEL SONY CAN if they put their minds and dollars to the job!

Anyways, Canon has done a 440 megapixel chip the size of a paper sheet for Space/Satellite purposes and I SAW THAT ONE PERSONALLY! Canon also ALREADY HAS 120 megapixel APS-H size sensors and has more than a few 50/60 megapixel and 80 megapixel sensors so they can do almost everything at scale because they are such a large size firm (Market Cap of 18 Billion USD with revenue of 37 Billion USD!), while we have barely hit above a billion dollars only in recent years and make maybe ten of those super-big 400mm sensors per year!

Canon and others can MATCH Sony's CMOS imaging prowess but they NEED to be hungry for market share. Canon is definitely getting BETTER but I REALLY THINK they need to start concentrating on LARGE SENSOR smartphones with 2/3rds inch, 1 inch and APS-C DCI 4K and DCI 8K resolution image sensors for stills AND video. THAT will save their bacon from Sony's onslaught of upcoming high resolution CMOS image sensors which WILL include new large 50 megapixel+ sensors for upcoming super-smartphones !!!

We shall see soon enough!

V


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## x4dow (Oct 12, 2020)

CvH said:


> 120fps? How long does it take to fill up a 2TB CFexpress card?


120fps sensor = 120p video


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## magarity (Oct 12, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> righto.. so the 45Mm R5 would have to make it with 5 frames per second limit or some such according to your logic? it's a 20 fps capable camera.
> again, you are incorrect, 20 MP is not a tech limitation but rather a designation at this stage.


I thought it obvious I was making up numbers - the point being that increasing frame rate requires increasing processing from the chips supporting the sensor. Is that incorrect?


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## addola (Oct 12, 2020)

Kit. said:


> You won't get such a DR with such a pixel pitch on a stills sensor (without multiple exposure artifacts), global shutter or not. Physically impossible with the current technology.
> 
> On a video sensor, interleaving the ISOs of the adjacent video frames, it's possible. But no "shutter speeds with flash", of course.



That makes sense! The paper did mention that the with HDR procedure, motion blur might occur, stating that it is useful for "static and slow moving objects"


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## y2kunals (Oct 12, 2020)

I don't know about these being specs for an R1. I think that camera will be more about stills than video (although still powerful video), but 21mp with global shutter seems more like an R5 Part 2 OR maybe even a new line of straight video focused mirrorless (without going to Cinema)


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## futzy (Oct 12, 2020)

CvH said:


> 120fps? How long does it take to fill up a 2TB CFexpress card?



Around 595 seconds it’s 21mpix only - raw files are around 27-28Mb.


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## jvillain (Oct 14, 2020)

CvH said:


> 120fps? How long does it take to fill up a 2TB CFexpress card?


I can give you a funny story. Back when I first got my BMPCC 6K I went to shoot a sun set time lapse, but when I got to the beach it was so bright I couldnt see any thing on the screen even with the lens hood and the monitor cranked so I pressed what I thought was my 6K every 4 sec preset. What it turned out to be was my 2.8K @120fps preset. It ran for almost 4 hours with out me noticing and finished filling my 1TB T5 about 4mins before I intendd to stop but we were well into blue hour so it was fine. I didn't notice until I got it home. I was able to drag it into resolve and render it down to the speed that I intended. Took a couple of hours to render though.


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## highdesertmesa (Oct 15, 2020)

This is great news for the R6 Mark II


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## SecureGSM (Oct 15, 2020)

magarity said:


> I thought it obvious I was making up numbers - the point being that increasing frame rate requires increasing processing from the chips supporting the sensor. Is that incorrect?


partially correct. My point is thought that throughput has increased to the point where 100Mp sensor at 9 FPS is no longer an issue. In your original post you said: 20Mp tech in camera is like 3,.5Ghz in computers.





__





Has Canon developed a new 21mp sensor for the Canon EOS R system? [CR1]


Honestly there really isn’t anything wrong with 20PM cameras. Most of my work is for web-based clients, I’m sure this also applies to many photographers. Yes, 45mp is nice for cropping it etc and I get this! Also, if you need to print big, but if not we all know there are advantages of a lower...




www.canonrumors.com





I explained that 20Mp is no longer a limitation from a throughput point of view.

larger files in a High Megapixel camera can be an issue when too many and and too large.


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