# We’ve returned to the 26.2mp sensor in the EOS RP



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 6, 2019)

> *Update:* Here’s an updated specification list for the Canon EOS RP.
> Our previous list of specifications for the Canon EOS RP mentioned an all-new 24mp sensor, which was a new bit of information, as certification agencies had previously mentioned a 26.2mp sensor for a full frame mirrorless camera.
> Nokishita reports that “K433” is the Canon EOS RP and will have a 26.2mp image sensor, which would likely be recycled from the EOS 6D Mark II.
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## -pekr- (Feb 6, 2019)

If that's the exact 6DII sensor, Canon is going to be burried alive in a subsequent reviews ....


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## wockawocka (Feb 6, 2019)

They'll probably have of chip AD/C in this one which should make a difference. I'm not clued up on the 6Dii, what was so bad?


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## padam (Feb 6, 2019)

It's the logical thing to do, other things that would be logical to differentiate from the EOS R would be: no headphone jack, no C-Log, IPB compression (UHS-II support not needed).
It's like a M5 with an M50 articulating screen and a FF sensor with RF mount.


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## padam (Feb 6, 2019)

wockawocka said:


> They'll probably have of chip AD/C in this one which should make a difference. I'm not clued up on the 6Dii, what was so bad?


I don't think it will be changed.
It depends, but the dynamic range it is much more like the 5D Mark III (maybe a little bit better), certainly inferior to the the Mark IV / EOS R and also somewhat behind 5Ds/5DsR


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## -pekr- (Feb 6, 2019)

wockawocka said:


> They'll probably have of chip AD/C in this one which should make a difference. I'm not clued up on the 6Dii, what was so bad?



6DII most probably uses on-chip ADC and the base ISO performance is worse than even the APS-C 80D. While the 6DII is still capable of making perfect photos, in certain conditions, the worse results than its APS-C siblins, are a bummer.


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## -pekr- (Feb 6, 2019)

padam said:


> I don't think it will be changed.
> It depends, but the dynamic range it is much more like the 5D Mark III (maybe a little bit better), certainly inferior the the Mark IV / EOS R and also somewhat behind 5Ds/5DsR



... and also behind the APS-C 80D, M5, M6 ... weird, isn't it?


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## padam (Feb 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> ... and also behind the APS-C 80D, M5, M6 ... weird, isn't it?


Only at the base ISO. In real-world, it is clearly better.


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## Chaitanya (Feb 6, 2019)

I just hope its a new sensor and not 6D mk2 sensor or else the reviews are going to be terrible to say the least.


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## qudek77 (Feb 6, 2019)

wockawocka said:


> They'll probably have of chip AD/C in this one which should make a difference. I'm not clued up on the 6Dii, what was so bad?


Well, the 6D mark I was better in ISO image quality

https://petapixel.com/2017/08/14/canon-6d-vs-6d-ii-heres-high-iso-noise-comparison/


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## JonSnow (Feb 6, 2019)

please please a new sensor.. not the 18MP sensor story again....


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## padam (Feb 6, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> I just hope its a new sensor and not 6D mk2 sensor or else the reviews are going to be terrible to say the least.


Not necessarily, since for the time being, the camera has no real direct competition, only much older Sony models.


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## Andrei (Feb 6, 2019)

This is not good...o nooo...not good
Hope just it is a false alarm
Canon...please...make a ff sensor with at least 13.5 stops dr
Crap crap crap...
Market strategy just to boost seales for eor R


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## dba101 (Feb 6, 2019)

If you want performance because you 'need' it, spend some proper money.


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## -pekr- (Feb 6, 2019)

dba101 said:


> If you want performance because you 'need' it, spend some proper money.



... ah, another use-your-wallet apologist for the 8 year old technology ....


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## ozturert (Feb 6, 2019)

I was thinking I could buy RP but if the base ISO DR is as bad as 6D II then I'll pass


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## dba101 (Feb 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> ... ah, another use-your-wallet apologist for the 8 year old technology ....



Crack on, 
Talking about a 'budget' camera like it should have professional specs is a familiar line.
General rule of thumb here is, 'you pay for what you get'


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## docsmith (Feb 6, 2019)

At the price points being discussed, what else would we really expect from Canon?

LP-E17? This is a M/Rebel battery. This will be a relatively inexpensive basic camera body. I am expecting a lot of plastic and the 6DII sensor. But at a low price point.


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## -pekr- (Feb 6, 2019)

dba101 said:


> Crack on,
> Talking about a 'budget' camera like it should have professional specs is a familiar line.
> General rule of thumb here is, 'you pay for what you get'



Don't worry, I get your thinking. We have freely decided to pass on the 6D II, saved a bit and went for the 5DIV instead, so in the end, Canon got even more money from us 

The trouble is, I don't consider it being a budget solution for the "professional line", if the lower line 80D, M5 and M6 have better low light performance. 

After the 6DII release I told to myself, that Canon had to be under some time or budget or production line pressure, and that Canon will not repeat the same mistake again. I just hope I was right.


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## jd7 (Feb 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> The trouble is, I don't consider it being a budget solution for the "professional line", if the lower line 80D, M5 and M6 have better low light performance.


You should try actually using a 6DII. No way I’d change mine for any of the cameras you mentioned, especially for low light photography.


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## YnR (Feb 6, 2019)

Ugggghhh. Stop penny pinching us. Charge us a couple hundred more and give us a better sensor. Don’t even need more MP just better DR. I don’t need weather sealing, 20 FPS, or a top LCD. In fact, I’d love a “cheap plasticky” body to cut down the weight. But I won’t buy anything until Canon makes their entry level FF mirrorless option with a solid, not even great, sensor. All these great RF lenses are just going to highlight the sensor’s inadequacies unless I plan on using my photos for social media only (which I don’t). How old is the 6DII sensor? How much hate did it get? Yea, it works but consumers could clearly have better and don’t think that’s unreasonable to ask for.


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## -pekr- (Feb 6, 2019)

jd7 said:


> You should try actually using a 6DII. No way I’d change mine for any of the cameras you mentioned, especially for low light photography.



What I actually meant was not low light, but low ISO, sorry ....


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## YuengLinger (Feb 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> ... ah, another use-your-wallet apologist for the 8 year old technology ....


Which part is eight years old?


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## -pekr- (Feb 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Which part is eight years old?



Sensor with the low ISO performance being at the 6D league. Ah, 6D was released 2012, so it'S actually only 7 years ....


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## delta0 (Feb 6, 2019)

If the previously mentioned prices are true then it must be a new sensor. If it is an old sensor they should be pitching this at very low prices.


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## David Hull (Feb 6, 2019)

YnR said:


> Ugggghhh. Stop penny pinching us. Charge us a couple hundred more and give us a better sensor. Don’t even need more MP just better DR. I don’t need weather sealing, 20 FPS, or a top LCD. In fact, I’d love a “cheap plasticky” body to cut down the weight. But I won’t buy anything until Canon makes their entry level FF mirrorless option with a solid, not even great, sensor. All these great RF lenses are just going to highlight the sensor’s inadequacies unless I plan on using my photos for social media only (which I don’t). How old is the 6DII sensor? How much hate did it get? Yea, it works but consumers could clearly have better and don’t think that’s unreasonable to ask for.


They have painted themselves into a corner with DPAF. They can’t just drop in a SONY sensor. Not that DPAF is bad in any way - it works well but I suspect anything they make will need to have it. FWIW: the DR on the 5DIV and the R is pretty good.


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## David Hull (Feb 6, 2019)

docsmith said:


> At the price points being discussed, what else would we really expect from Canon?
> 
> LP-E17? This is a M/Rebel battery. This will be a relatively inexpensive basic camera body. I am expecting a lot of plastic and the 6DII sensor. But at a low price point.


Looks like an M50 style body maybe?


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## YnR (Feb 6, 2019)

David Hull said:


> They have painted themselves into a corner with DPAF. They can’t just drop in a SONY sensor. Not that DPAF is bad in any way - it works well but I suspect anything they make will need to have it. FWIW: the DR on the 5DIV and the R is pretty good.



Definitely don’t want the weight of the 5DIV even though it’s a great camera and would like a flip screen as I find myself using it a lot. The R is tempting for what I do but hoping for a cheaper option.


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## YuengLinger (Feb 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Sensor with the low ISO performance being at the 6D league. Ah, 6D was released 2012, so it'S actually only 7 years ....


You might not like the 6DII's sensor, you might think it wasn't a big enough advance over the one in the 6D, but, please, don't misrepresent the age of the sensor. The eos 6D II was announced in the summer of 2017.

So if the EOS RP is going with the same sensor, IT IS ONLY TWO YEARS OLD.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 6, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



If we can get the recycled 6D II sensor with some DPAF software and other improvements at the 77D price it will be a home run.
No R&D for the sensor, it is amortized. the body and mount are pretty much designed.
Good model for entry to FF on a real budget if some inexpensive kit lenses are also introduced.
Yes, purists will bitch and moan but for those looking for FF performance and just could not afford to join the club this is a golden opportunity for Canon to get them on board.
Just think a FF camera with a very good sensor for under $900 USD, WOW.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 6, 2019)

Canon is trying to get a big presence in the entry level full frame market, so I don't expect prosumer features or a super sensor, the 6D MK II certainly has a decent sensor, and for $1600, a RP will quickly get a big mirrorless market share, and make it possible for us to see more low cost RF lenses.


Its targeted at Rebel upgrade's or those without deep pockets who want the iq advantages of full frame. The pro level EOS R sensor is great for those shooting RAW, but I expect a majority of RP owners will shoot jpeg, and using more basic editing techniques, it should be great for that. 

Looking at the photos, I like the return to the standard dial, and the lack of a slider bar on the rear is fine.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 6, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> The trouble is, I don't consider it being a budget solution for the "professional line", if the lower line 80D, M5 and M6 have better low light performance.



Its pretty easy to check out the comparison, lots of online low light images are out there, I see no case where anyone with even marginal vision could not see that the 6D has way better low light performance.


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## YnR (Feb 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> You might not like the 6DII's sensor, you might think it wasn't a big enough advance over the one in the 6D, but, please, don't misrepresent the age of the sensor. The eos 6D II was announced in the summer of 2017.
> 
> So if the EOS RP is going with the same sensor, IT IS ONLY TWO YEARS OLD.



I’m not misrepresenting anything. If you want to make that argument, I’ll make the claim, you’re not seeing the relevant scenario. Two years is plenty of time to either improve the current sensor, design a new sensor, or even purchase a 3rd party sensor. Canon says it’s mirrorless sales are only going to cannibalize their own DSLR sales. You know why? Because no one in their right mind starting from scratch would buy the RP if it has the 6DII sensor. Same reason why no one in the same boat would take 6DII over the A7R. You want new customers? Make a product worth investing in. It’s not the pre-digital age anymore where you can limp in with a lame body. It’s not just about lenses anymore. The market isn’t growing so every company has to fight over the same pie to get a bigger slice. If the company wants to garner new customers, they need a new product. Rehashing two year old sensors isn’t the way. So yes, two years is old.


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## windsorc (Feb 6, 2019)

So if you don't need performance buy a Canon! Not sure that's going to be a good marketing strategy.


dba101 said:


> If you want performance because you 'need' it, spend some proper money.


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## Etienne (Feb 6, 2019)

How depressing.... Canon's worst FF sensor being hocked out again


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Feb 6, 2019)

Using the 6d2's sensor should give Canon some room to really drive the price down. It'll get savaged on youtube by reviewers but if they can get the price low enough they'll sell. Ultimately that is all Canon really cares about with this model. It's a shrinking market and they need a sub $1000 body to make the R system viable for general users.


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## justawriter (Feb 6, 2019)

Yes, the next blah blah Canon will get horrible reviews ... blah blah ...
... then go on to outsell the competition two to one.


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## nchoh (Feb 6, 2019)

YnR said:


> ...How old is the 6DII sensor?
> 
> How much hate did it get? Yea, it works but consumers could clearly have better and don’t think that’s unreasonable to ask for.



Ironic... the 6DII was criticized because it's low light sensitivity wasn't as good as an even older sensor; the 6DmkI sensor!

The 6DII was criticized because it apparently didn't add anything over the MkI but lost out in low light performance over it's predecessor and also because of the old AF system that was implemented. So overall, there wasn't anything wrong with the sensor. The 6DII traded more mp for low light performance. It was still good but not as good as the MkI.

The sensor itself captures and produces excellent images.


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## stevelee (Feb 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Which part is eight years old?


I think my wallet probably is.


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## nchoh (Feb 6, 2019)

windsorc said:


> So if you don't need performance buy a Canon! Not sure that's going to be a good marketing strategy.


Good argument,... valid until Canon comes out with it's high end R at the end of 2019 and creams the competition with a better camera and better lenses.


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## stevelee (Feb 6, 2019)

nchoh said:


> the 6DII was criticized because it's low light sensitivity wasn't as good as an even older sensor; the 6DmkI sensor!



I don't recall seeing criticism of its low-light performance. All the complaints I've seen were about dynamic range at ISO 100.


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## nchoh (Feb 6, 2019)

stevelee said:


> I don't recall seeing criticism of its low-light performance. All the complaints I've seen were about dynamic range at ISO 100.


It couldn't match the amazing low light performance of the 6DI, so the recommendation was to not upgrade if you already had a 6DI... if you would call that a complaint.


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## cayenne (Feb 6, 2019)

delta0 said:


> If the previously mentioned prices are true then it must be a new sensor. If it is an old sensor they should be pitching this at very low prices.



I heard the other day rumored prices were like $1500-$1600.....those ARE low prices.


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## djack41 (Feb 6, 2019)

I own so much Canon gear but IMHO Canon is too slow and conservative. Where is the promised firmware update for all of us that bought the EOS R? Maybe it will increase the frame rate, provide eye-focus in servo (or maybe eye focus that actually works), fix the silly touch bar or maybe do something "bold" like add an intervalometer. I just watched a presentation of Sony's new firmware update (free) for the A9 and A7lll and it is super impressive. Come on Canon, patience is thin.


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## nchoh (Feb 6, 2019)

Etienne said:


> How depressing.... Canon's worst FF sensor being hocked out again



Canon using it's cheapest FF sensor in it's cheapest FF camera... duh!


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## that1guyy (Feb 6, 2019)

Canon EOS RP? More like EOS RIP amirite?


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## nchoh (Feb 6, 2019)

that1guyy said:


> Canon EOS RP? More like EOS RIP amirite?



Why? Because you hate the segment of buyers who will buy this camera?


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## preppyak (Feb 6, 2019)

docsmith said:


> At the price points being discussed, what else would we really expect from Canon?
> 
> LP-E17? This is a M/Rebel battery. This will be a relatively inexpensive basic camera body. I am expecting a lot of plastic and the 6DII sensor. But at a low price point.


Sony significantly increased their battery life, increased their weather proofing, has extended their lens line, and has industry leading sensor performance. Looked like they were dropping the price to $1799, so, if Canon's coming in at $1599, theyre a solid 2 steps behind. At $1299, their choices would make a lot more sense.

They'll also have to release a lot more lenses in the <$1000 for it to make sense too.


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## Bahrd (Feb 6, 2019)

that1guyy said:


> Canon EOS RP? More like EOS RIP amirite?



You guys are like children in a kindergarten. But crueller…


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## YuengLinger (Feb 6, 2019)

YnR said:


> I’m not misrepresenting anything. If you want to make that argument, I’ll make the claim, you’re not seeing the relevant scenario. Two years is plenty of time to either improve the current sensor, design a new sensor, or even purchase a 3rd party sensor. Canon says it’s mirrorless sales are only going to cannibalize their own DSLR sales. You know why? Because no one in their right mind starting from scratch would buy the RP if it has the 6DII sensor. Same reason why no one in the same boat would take 6DII over the A7R. You want new customers? Make a product worth investing in. It’s not the pre-digital age anymore where you can limp in with a lame body. It’s not just about lenses anymore. The market isn’t growing so every company has to fight over the same pie to get a bigger slice. If the company wants to garner new customers, they need a new product. Rehashing two year old sensors isn’t the way. So yes, two years is old.



How many screen names do you have? My reply was not to one of your posts _under this name._

it was pekr who claimed the sensor of the 6D II is "8 years old." Then he stepped back to "7 years."

I pointed out that the sensor is TWO years old. I'd say this is a "fact," not an argument. Somebody claiming the sensor is 5 years older than that is misrepresenting the age. Wrong. In error. Making false claims.

I don't believe in crystal balls, especially the one you are using to predict what people in their right minds will buy or not buy.


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## docsmith (Feb 6, 2019)

preppyak said:


> Sony significantly increased their battery life, increased their weather proofing, has extended their lens line, and has industry leading sensor performance. Looked like they were dropping the price to $1799, so, if Canon's coming in at $1599, theyre a solid 2 steps behind. At $1299, their choices would make a lot more sense.
> 
> They'll also have to release a lot more lenses in the <$1000 for it to make sense too.


First off, I agree with the lenses. Canon seems to be releasing an entry and mid-level bodies and then mid to high end lenses. We are seeing a non-L RF 24-240, and the RF 35 macro often gets overlooked. But I expect Canon to remedy that sometime this year or early next year.

Staying on the lenses for a second, but comparing Canon to Sony, people often get all excited about $100-$200 price difference between bodies and casually ignore the fact that Sony's lenses are often $500-$700 more expensive per lens, just look at the holy trinity comparing GM to L.

As for the these "two steps," it all depends what you want. I've played with a number of Sony's offerings, disliked a number of things about them. As far as I am concerned, Sony, while offering good cameras, has not yet caught up to Canon. This isn't meant as a slight to Sony, just saying, different people care about different things. If I want better sensor IQ than my current 5DIV, I would actually look at the Fuji 50R, not Sony. For really pretty comparable IQ, I'll take Canon's record, quality control, service, menu system, ergonomics, file size, etc, etc. But, again, not faulting anyone for liking Sony, they are offering a good product.


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## YnR (Feb 6, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> How many screen names do you have? My reply was not to one of your posts _under this name._
> 
> it was pekr who claimed the sensor of the 6D II is "8 years old." Then he stepped back to "7 years."
> 
> ...



I’m lost. I’ve only got this one SN. I will admit that I erroneously responded to your comment, so I apologize for that. I do think Canon is making the wrong choice in putting the 6D2 sensor in the RP, if that’s the case. Of course none of us have a crystal ball but who’s going to shell out $1500 for a re-release? The RP only offers a new mount over the 6DII. Any buyer who does any level of research is going to notice the stagnation that many of us Canon users are moaning about. If you were in that position, would you buy a RP? Want more market share? Then you have to entice new customers. No crystal ball needed.


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## preppyak (Feb 6, 2019)

docsmith said:


> Staying on the lenses for a second, but comparing Canon to Sony, people often get all excited about $100-$200 price difference between bodies and casually ignore the fact that Sony's lenses are often $500-$700 more expensive per lens, just look at the holy trinity comparing GM to L.


For sure. But I can also get the Sigma line, the Tamron 28-75, and a number of other 3rd party options right now. As someone who had an a7R and basically only adapted lenses, it was annoying. Canon's got a better setup for that with EF->RF, but, nobody's gonna move to Canon and buy EF lenses right now. And how long will it take for Sigma to make RF lenses (especially when they're already invested in FE and L-Mount)? It took a good 3 years for Sony to even come close to something resembling a serviceable lens line.



> As far as I am concerned, Sony, while offering good cameras, has not yet caught up to Canon.


Where the camera world is now, overall, I'll agree. Where its going in 5 years...I'm less sure Canon's going the right way. They let themselves fall behind when Sony started the A7, and aside from pushing the RF lens line, its not feeling like they're in a hurry to catch up.

People who are bought into Canon are waiting around for them...people just getting into full-frame cameras that arent invested in a lens line...who of them would say "Get me an EOS-R" right now?


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## nchoh (Feb 6, 2019)

preppyak said:


> Where the camera world is now, overall, I'll agree. Where its going in 5 years...I'm less sure Canon's going the right way. They let themselves fall behind when Sony started the A7, and aside from pushing the RF lens line, its not feeling like they're in a hurry to catch up.



This is a classic problem for all incumbents, not just Canon. When a new technology comes along, the incumbent has a tough choice to make; sacrifice it's current line to compete against the newcomer with new technology products? It's a well known business problem that's got it's own name - disruptive technology.

Personally, I think that Canon has done very well in reacting to the competition. It built up the M line and is now very quickly building out the R line of cameras and lenses. A sure sign of a well managed company. We probably will see the R camera line quite well placed in 2 years.


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## Don Haines (Feb 6, 2019)

We have a 6D and a 6D2 at work. Nobody has touched the 6D since we got the 6D2, except when the 6D2 was already in use. That should tell you something about the relative merits.

How many of you people criticizing the sensor have either one of the cameras?

Canon cameras suck in the spec sheet, but excel in the field.


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## Jethro (Feb 6, 2019)

This just explains how Canon can release this body for the price being rumoured, including the latest DIGIC chip. As a trade-up for APS-C shooters, there is going to be a clear bump in IQ (maybe excluding base ISO depending on what test you look at), and that is the target market. It'll be lighter than the EOS R, and much lighter than FF DSLRs, but bigger and easier to handle than the EOS M range (which will still be there if people want even smaller and cheaper versions). Absolutely logical market move, and it will sell by the pallet.


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## dak723 (Feb 6, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> I just hope its a new sensor and not 6D mk2 sensor or else the reviews are going to be terrible to say the least.



If you care about the reviews, yes they will be terrible. If you care about the photos, they will look great, just as the 6D photos looked great - and based on the comments from actual 6D II users - they will look even better than the 6D.


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## [email protected] (Feb 7, 2019)

The benefit of this camera is the size. It was a critical mirrorless market, and Canon has done quite remarkably well with it. It is about 10 percent wider than the SL-2, 10 percent shorter, and about 10 percent heavier than that older crop form factor. And that SL line is awesome for certain applications. I own two of them that I use to plant in various places as remotes, often out in the woods on infra red triggers. (Aside from the tilty flippy screen, the SL1 is pretty much as good as the SL2, being one of the "lateralgrades" Canon has done in the past couple of years.)

The sensor they put in it is a whole lot better than the crop one in the SLR. And, yes, the 6D2 did not push the performance envelope much at all past the then-ancient 6D1. And, yes, the 6D1 selling proposition of a 5-series-class sensor in a cheap body was pretty much shot with the 6D2. And yes, Canon will take that 6D2 sensor and - in writing - claim it is "all new" several times over, which will be as true as it was back when we recycled 18mp sensors for a generation. But none of that signifies, because the RP is all about the size. If you don't need it, you don't need it. 

As soon as Canon releases a >40mp camera with >7 fps in servo, I'll buy that, and pick up one of these used (unfortunately, I think there will be time to build a used market).


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## johnhenry (Feb 7, 2019)

Sounds about right: Canon using a sensor 2 years old from the 6D Mk ii. Doubt the price though. Nor under $2k for a FF is their mantra.


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## canonmike (Feb 7, 2019)

jd7 said:


> You should try actually using a 6DII. No way I’d change mine for any of the cameras you mentioned, especially for low light photography.


Well said. I have to agree and wonder how many neg commenters have actually ever used a 6DII. It's like Tony Northrup said not too long ago. The naysayers bash the specs but the camera just works in real life use.


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## YuengLinger (Feb 7, 2019)

YnR said:


> I’m lost. I’ve only got this one SN. I will admit that I erroneously responded to your comment, so I apologize for that. I do think Canon is making the wrong choice in putting the 6D2 sensor in the RP, if that’s the case. Of course none of us have a crystal ball but who’s going to shell out $1500 for a re-release? The RP only offers a new mount over the 6DII. Any buyer who does any level of research is going to notice the stagnation that many of us Canon users are moaning about. If you were in that position, would you buy a RP? Want more market share? Then you have to entice new customers. No crystal ball needed.


I'm not currently in the market for a budget FF camera. I'm waiting for an RF mount with more features than the EOS R, but in no hurry because my 5DIV is working great. I will admit I'm still strongly attracted to the rf 50mm f/1.2L, months after its release, but I've cooled down enough to wait until I really need a new body.

Still, I don't understand the fuss about using a 6D II sensor WITH A BETTER PROCESSOR in a budget camera. What great IQ it will have, and what a great universe of available lenses it will have access to.


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## mikekeck (Feb 7, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> We have a 6D and a 6D2 at work. Nobody has touched the 6D since we got the 6D2, except when the 6D2 was already in use. That should tell you something about the relative merits.
> 
> How many of you people criticizing the sensor have either one of the cameras?
> 
> Canon cameras suck in the spec sheet, but excel in the field.




Spot on, Don!


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## Jethro (Feb 7, 2019)

All this is not much different from the criticism of the EOS R for 'recycling' an 'old and out of date' sensor from the 5DIV. Given the positioning of that camera (between the 6D and 5D range) the use of that sensor (i) avoided the capitalised cost of an only incrementally better new sensor while (ii) providing a significant benefit in image quality etc (with the new DIGIC version) from the camera the target market was upgrading from. Word for word the same for the EOS RP. This is about Canon trying to get people (especially existing Canon shooters) to upgrade their bodies, and to do so into the new mirrorless range - and welcome to the wonderful new world of RF lenses! The RP will be a serious upgrade in IQ and usability from the higher range APS-C user which is likely to be the target market. The EOS R came out first to pick up people wanting an upgrade from a 6D or 6Dii (or from APS-C and prepared to pay more).


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 7, 2019)

YnR said:


> Because no one in their right mind starting from scratch would buy the RP if it has the 6DII sensor. *Same reason why no one in the same boat would take 6DII over the A7R.*



Pardon me while I laugh.

The 6DII is a faaaaaar better camera than the A7R. A7R was one of the more frustrating products I’ve ever owned. Sure, I could push the shadows farther, but I had to put a weight on the thing to dampen the shutter shock. The A7Rii was incredibly better, but still frustrating; mine was replaced by a 1Dx.



YnR said:


> Two years is plenty of time to... design a new sensor,



Design? Maybe. But it sounds like a short cycle to go into mass production, although my expertise is in the development of electronics, not semiconductors.


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## -pekr- (Feb 7, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> You might not like the 6DII's sensor, you might think it wasn't a big enough advance over the one in the 6D, but, please, don't misrepresent the age of the sensor. The eos 6D II was announced in the summer of 2017.
> 
> So if the EOS RP is going with the same sensor, IT IS ONLY TWO YEARS OLD.



No, it is not, not performance wise - go figure. You are nitpicking on wording and that's just all that is to your reply.


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## -pekr- (Feb 7, 2019)

justawriter said:


> Yes, the next blah blah Canon will get horrible reviews ... blah blah ...
> ... then go on to outsell the competition two to one.



Is outselling the competition in any relation with technology, its capabilities, and advancements. Long time ago I was an Amiga user. It was outsold by Windows, which dragged entire world 10-15 years back.


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## ozturert (Feb 7, 2019)

canonmike said:


> Well said. I have to agree and wonder how many neg commenters have actually ever used a 6DII. It's like Tony Northrup said not too long ago. The naysayers bash the specs but the camera just works in real life use.


I'm not a naysayer but I have used almost all Canons. 6D II is a great camera overall and its sensor is not as good as my old EOS M6 at base ISO (shadows are cleaner in M6 and I can push M6 shadows 1-2 stops more than 6D II). Still, overall, 6D II is a good camera. If RP is priced right with 24-105mm (like 2200USD) then it'll be an absolute winner.


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## Kit. (Feb 7, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Is outselling the competition in any relation with technology, its capabilities, and advancements. Long time ago I was an Amiga user. It was outsold by Windows, which dragged entire world 10-15 years back.


You mean, by people who were buying Windows even without buying _a computer_?


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## YuengLinger (Feb 7, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> No, it is not, not performance wise - go figure. You are nitpicking on wording and that's just all that is to your reply.


You claimed the 6D II sensor was eight years old. I corrected you, saying it is two years old. "Nitpicking"? Your assertions seem a little soft pekr.


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## GMCPhotographics (Feb 7, 2019)

I wonder if the on chip AD/DA converter is covered by a patent that Sony owns. I also wonder if the 5D4 with it's higher price point has the budget to pay Sony a royalty to use this concept where as the 6DII has a tighter margin and therefore doesn't employ the same chip design.


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## padam (Feb 7, 2019)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I wonder if the on chip AD/DA converter is covered by a patent that Sony owns. I also wonder if the 5D4 with it's higher price point has the budget to pay Sony a royalty to use this concept where as the 6DII has a tighter margin and therefore doesn't employ the same chip design.


It has nothing to do with Sony. (In that case they would have to pay that for almost all the APS-C models, since they are already using this technology)


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## ExodistPhotography (Feb 7, 2019)

While I do not expect amazing things, it should at least be a good upgrade path for someone wanting mirrorless and upgrade from APS-C. If it is using 6D2's sensor, I hope it is at least improved some. That said I will reserve judgement before I have had my hands on it.


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## maxfactor9933 (Feb 7, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> You might not like the 6DII's sensor, you might think it wasn't a big enough advance over the one in the 6D, but, please, don't misrepresent the age of the sensor. The eos 6D II was announced in the summer of 2017.
> 
> So if the EOS RP is going with the same sensor, IT IS ONLY TWO YEARS OLD.



No. it is 8 Years old. It was obsolete at the time of release


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## maxfactor9933 (Feb 7, 2019)

from the picture is looks like circumcised.. looks mutant


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## YuengLinger (Feb 7, 2019)

maxfactor9933 said:


> No. it is 8 Years old. It was obsolete at the time of release


Please show us your source to back up your claim that the 6D II sensor is eight years old.


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## Don Haines (Feb 7, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Please show us your source to back up your claim that the 6D II sensor is eight years old.


Come on now.... it is obvious!

The 6D2 came out 2017 06/29
The 6D came out 2012 11/20

Eight years ago was 2011 02/07

The 6D2 sensor came out 1 year and 9 months before the 6D came out. You just need the proper drugs...… take enough and this will make sense to you too


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## Chuckmet (Feb 7, 2019)

YnR said:


> I’m not misrepresenting anything. If you want to make that argument, I’ll make the claim, you’re not seeing the relevant scenario. Two years is plenty of time to either improve the current sensor, design a new sensor, or even purchase a 3rd party sensor. Canon says it’s mirrorless sales are only going to cannibalize their own DSLR sales. You know why? Because no one in their right mind starting from scratch would buy the RP if it has the 6DII sensor. Same reason why no one in the same boat would take 6DII over the A7R. You want new customers? Make a product worth investing in. It’s not the pre-digital age anymore where you can limp in with a lame body. It’s not just about lenses anymore. The market isn’t growing so every company has to fight over the same pie to get a bigger slice. If the company wants to garner new customers, they need a new product. Rehashing two year old sensors isn’t the way. So yes, two years is old.


You seem to think that people who frequent these forums are the majority of buyers, they are not. Most new buyers will be perfectly happy with the results obtained by this lightweight compact inexpensive full frame camera that can be used with all the EF lenses available with the adapter.


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## YnR (Feb 7, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Pardon me while I laugh.
> 
> The 6DII is a faaaaaar better camera than the A7R. A7R was one of the more frustrating products I’ve ever owned. Sure, I could push the shadows farther, but I had to put a weight on the thing to dampen the shutter shock. The A7Rii was incredibly better, but still frustrating; mine was replaced by a 1Dx.
> 
> ...




Sorry meant the A73 not the R. My bad on the typo. No matter how you cut it, the 6D2 is fine if you’re on an island but doesn’t cut it for the price and competition.


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## YnR (Feb 7, 2019)

Chuckmet said:


> You seem to think that people who frequent these forums are the majority of buyers, they are not. Most new buyers will be perfectly happy with the results obtained by this lightweight compact inexpensive full frame camera that can be used with all the EF lenses available with the adapter.


I don’t but I do think most people do some research before plopping down $1500-2000 on a camera and the internet isn’t shy about its thoughts on the 6d2.


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## YuengLinger (Feb 7, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Come on now.... it is obvious!
> 
> The 6D2 came out 2017 06/29
> The 6D came out 2012 11/20
> ...


Maybe it's "troll math"?


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## dak723 (Feb 8, 2019)

YnR said:


> I’m not misrepresenting anything. If you want to make that argument, I’ll make the claim, you’re not seeing the relevant scenario. Two years is plenty of time to either improve the current sensor, design a new sensor, or even purchase a 3rd party sensor. Canon says it’s mirrorless sales are only going to cannibalize their own DSLR sales. You know why? Because no one in their right mind starting from scratch would buy the RP if it has the 6DII sensor. Same reason why no one in the same boat would take 6DII over the A7R. You want new customers? Make a product worth investing in. It’s not the pre-digital age anymore where you can limp in with a lame body. It’s not just about lenses anymore. The market isn’t growing so every company has to fight over the same pie to get a bigger slice. If the company wants to garner new customers, they need a new product. Rehashing two year old sensors isn’t the way. So yes, two years is old.



There have been virtually no noticeable improvements in sensors for the past two generations of anyone's cameras. Why you think that companies can suddenly change the laws of physics is unknown. Sensors are pretty much at their best limit, and have been for far more than two years - and wont change much unless totally different technology is developed.

Plus, we are discussing a *budget level FF camera* - and yet you somehow think that Canon can afford to put a newly designed top-of-the-line sensor in it. If you are among those that wants Canon's best sensor in a mirrorless camera, then the R is already available.

Your proclamation that "no one in their right mind would buy the RP if it has the 6DII sensor," is not only moronic, but also insulting to those of us will indeed consider buying this camera. Experienced photographers have indeed chosen the 6dII over the Sony A7RIII - not because they are somehow stupid, but because they are not so stupid as to think specs actually tell you what makes a good camera. Some folks value ergonomics, color, the articulating screen, the better touch screen and the overall better AF. Not everyone is stuck on the idea that you have to have the maximum DR, and DR is the be-all and end-all when it comes to IQ. Each person should buy the camera that suits their needs, if the camera doesn''t suit yours, then just say so without all the rediculous and insulting proclamations.


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## Antono Refa (Feb 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Is outselling the competition in any relation with technology, its capabilities, and advancements. Long time ago I was an Amiga user. It was outsold by Windows, which dragged entire world 10-15 years back.



That's capitalism for you. Corporations are in it for profit, not progress.

While corporations like DEC & Apple charged a premium for their superior technology (I know, I worked on OpenVMS and MS Windows 95 at the same time), MS competed on price, even making it easy for users to use the products without paying. Fast forward 20 years, Microsoft rules the market, the Macintosh is a niche market, and DEC was bankrupted.


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## Don Haines (Feb 8, 2019)

dak723 said:


> There have been virtually no noticeable improvements in sensors for the past two generations of anyone's cameras. Why you think that companies can suddenly change the laws of physics is unknown. Sensors are pretty much at their best limit, and have been for far more than two years - and wont change much unless totally different technology is developed.
> 
> Plus, we are discussing a *budget level FF camera* - and yet you somehow think that Canon can afford to put a newly designed top-of-the-line sensor in it. If you are among those that wants Canon's best sensor in a mirrorless camera, then the R is already available.
> 
> Your proclamation that "no one in their right mind would buy the RP if it has the 6DII sensor," is not only moronic, but also insulting to those of us will indeed consider buying this camera. Experienced photographers have indeed chosen the 6dII over the Sony A7RIII - not because they are somehow stupid, but because they are not so stupid as to think specs actually tell you what makes a good camera. Some folks value ergonomics, color, the articulating screen, the better touch screen and the overall better AF. Not everyone is stuck on the idea that you have to have the maximum DR, and DR is the be-all and end-all when it comes to IQ. Each person should buy the camera that suits their needs, if the camera doesn''t suit yours, then just say so without all the rediculous and insulting proclamations.


The quantum efficiency of sensors is typically in the mid 80% range for everyone. This means that as far as signal gathering goes, we are within a third of a stop from perfection...... not a lot of room to grow! The only place to make real gains is either to reduce read noise with massively parallel a/d converters on chip, or to come up with a new technology that counts photons individually. 

However you slice it, there is only so much light, and to get better sensor performance you need more of it.

For the immediate future, advances in computing power will mean more to the world of cameras than any tweaking of sensors. Look at the latest from Olympus and Panasonic! My bet for an upcoming high end R model will be at least quad digic processors


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## koenkooi (Feb 8, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> [..]My bet for an upcoming high end R model will be at least quad digic processors



In the past Canon has also used faster clocked versions of existing digics, so the high end R could also have 2 digic 9+ processors instead. Thinking about it some more, the dual models had one digic for AF and another "the rest". With no seperate AF sensor and what seems to be a bottleneck on sensor readout, I wonder if adding more processors actually helps.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 8, 2019)

Antono Refa said:


> Apple charged a premium for their superior technology (I know, I worked on OpenVMS and MS Windows 95 at the same time), MS competed on price, even making it easy for users to use the products without paying. Fast forward 20 years, Microsoft rules the market, the Macintosh is a niche market,


Their business models were a lot more different than premium versus budget. Apple sold (and still does) hardware, Microsoft sold software that would work on almost any computer system.


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## Antono Refa (Feb 8, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Their business models were a lot more different than premium versus budget.



Apple's business models turned the Macintosh into a niche product, that nowadays runs on the same hardware as MS-Windows.

What's you point?


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## stevelee (Feb 8, 2019)

Antono Refa said:


> Apple's business models turned the Macintosh into a niche product, that nowadays runs on the same hardware as MS-Windows.
> 
> What's you point?



And Apple became, at least for a while, the most valuable company in the world. Macs seem to be everywhere you turn, so it is a pretty good-sized niche.


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## Talys (Feb 8, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Their business models were a lot more different than premium versus budget. Apple sold (and still does) hardware, Microsoft sold software that would work on almost any computer system.


They're both worth over 800 billion dollars, now, so I think that that however they got there their founders can be pretty happy about that


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## Antono Refa (Feb 8, 2019)

stevelee said:


> And Apple became, at least for a while, the most valuable company in the world.



Due to the success of products other than the Mac, e.g. the iPhone, which is outside the scope of the current discussion.



stevelee said:


> Macs seem to be everywhere you turn, so it is a pretty good-sized niche.



I'm a software engineer for >20 years, and worked on a variety of platforms - Apple II, MS DOS, IBM MF & AS/400, MPX on Gould computers, OpenVMS, HPUX, AIX, and MS Windows. A previous employer (a U.S. corporation, >4,000 employees) had a product developed initially on Mac, ported to Windows, than dropped Mac support due to lack of profit. My current employer is the first company I ever saw to use Macs and develop software for it.

Point being, I'm not seeing Macs everywhere I turn.


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## Viggo (Feb 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Is outselling the competition in any relation with technology, its capabilities, and advancements. Long time ago I was an Amiga user. It was outsold by Windows, which dragged entire world 10-15 years back.


I still have fully working A501 (you know, 1mb extra memory) and an A1200, they are beautiful machines


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## Viggo (Feb 8, 2019)

I’m running Lr and Ps on a 10 year old iMac, it works ridiculously well with those two programs. I had ten pc’s in 4 years prior to that, they never worked and constant babysitting. Now, tell me again how much more expensive Apple is


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## takesome1 (Feb 8, 2019)

Viggo said:


> I’m running Lr and Ps on a 10 year old iMac, it works ridiculously well with those two programs. I had ten pc’s in 4 years prior to that, they never worked and constant babysitting. Now, tell me again how much more expensive Apple is



Ten year ago not expensive at all considering I still have one running to.
But the versions they have been releasing lately not so much, the last one I bought, a $2500 MacBook Pro, is just an overpriced paper weight. 
It did have the advantage of being then and lighter than my ASUS ROG laptop at half the money and twice the computing machine.


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## highdesertmesa (Feb 8, 2019)

I will absolutely buy the RP. Having *any Canon full frame sensor from the last few years* in a small, light body not designed by masochists is going to be amazing. Unlike the R, the RP makes sense to me – it's purpose is clear and converges perfectly with its rumored price point. It will be my gateway to the RF glass and will hold me off until the 5DsR replacement arrives, at which point it becomes my second body.

I wish they had released the RP first, not because it makes any kind of marketing sense, but simply for selfish reasons: I would already own it and be shooting with RF glass.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 8, 2019)

Antono Refa said:


> Apple's business models turned the Macintosh into a niche product, that nowadays runs on the same hardware as MS-Windows.
> 
> What's you point?



My point is that this was a poor comparison to demonstrate the effect of premium versus value pricing. Their strategies and products were too different. It is like comparing an iPhone to the Android OS.


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## stevelee (Feb 8, 2019)

Antono Refa said:


> Due to the success of products other than the Mac, e.g. the iPhone, which is outside the scope of the current discussion.


Yep, mostly, but the iPhone has boosted the whole ecosystem, camel nose under the tent, and all that. I know former Apple-hating families who got MacBooks after they started using iPhones and iPads. The current discussion ranged off into business models.



> I'm a software engineer for >20 years, and worked on a variety of platforms - Apple II, MS DOS, IBM MF & AS/400, MPX on Gould computers, OpenVMS, HPUX, AIX, and MS Windows. A previous employer (a U.S. corporation, >4,000 employees) had a product developed initially on Mac, ported to Windows, than dropped Mac support due to lack of profit. My current employer is the first company I ever saw to use Macs and develop software for it.
> 
> Point being, I'm not seeing Macs everywhere I turn.



We turn different places. I live near a college campus.


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## Talys (Feb 9, 2019)

highdesertmesa said:


> I will absolutely buy the RP. Having *any Canon full frame sensor from the last few years* in a small, light body not designed by masochists is going to be amazing.



It's funny that you say that, because I think the same thing as mirrorless bodies roll out -- why do these people torture me with small bodies? Are they masochists?

It all comes down to what lens you want to mount. The R + adapter + 70-200 2.8 or 100-400L2 does not feel rightto me. Better than a gripless Sony with a similar size lens, but that's not really saying much. I prefer something at least the size of 80D, preferably the size of 6D, so it all just depends on what you want to mount onto the body.

I like choice though -- I think it's great that there will be different size bodies for different applications in R.


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## delta0 (Feb 9, 2019)

I expect the RP and 6D mk2 sensor is the same situation as the R and 5D mk4 sensor.


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## Antono Refa (Feb 9, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> My point is that this was a poor comparison to demonstrate the effect of premium versus value pricing. Their strategies and products were too different. It is like comparing an iPhone to the Android OS.



One still has to buy hardware, regardless of OS, so I think it's a good example.


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## Antono Refa (Feb 9, 2019)

stevelee said:


> Yep, mostly, but the iPhone has boosted the whole ecosystem, camel nose under the tent, and all that. I know former Apple-hating families who got MacBooks after they started using iPhones and iPads. The current discussion ranged off into business models.



So now is Apple is king of two niches. Good for them.



stevelee said:


> We turn different places. I live near a college campus.



I spent half my career within walking distance of a college campus.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Feb 9, 2019)

stevelee said:


> And Apple became, at least for a while, the most valuable company in the world. Macs seem to be everywhere you turn, so it is a pretty good-sized niche.


From a north american viewpoint.. Thew more sensible Europeans here never bought into the apple hype except for the artsy people (mainly artists and art history students) who are well known for having little technical and - business sense who buy apple for looks not being hindered by any hardware knowledge.


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## Viggo (Feb 9, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> From a north american viewpoint.. Thew more sensible Europeans here never bought into the apple hype except for the artsy people (mainly artists and art history students) who are well known for having little technical and - business sense who buy apple for looks not being hindered by any hardware knowledge.


Wow, now that’s not only so far off you can’t climb back, but completely ridiculous


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## Don Haines (Feb 9, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> From a north american viewpoint.. Thew more sensible Europeans here never bought into the apple hype except for the artsy people (mainly artists and art history students) who are well known for having little technical and - business sense who buy apple for looks not being hindered by any hardware knowledge.


For 40 years I have been telling people.....

Figure out what you want to do.
Find the software to do it.
Make sure that it fits your budget and you have someone to ask for support.
Find the hardware to run it on.

Mac or PC is the last thing to ask, not the first


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## Memirsbrunnr (Feb 9, 2019)

Viggo said:


> Wow, now that’s not only so far off you can’t climb back, but completely ridiculous


I assume you are an artist based on your response


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## Memirsbrunnr (Feb 9, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> For 40 years I have been telling people.....
> 
> Figure out what you want to do.
> Find the software to do it.
> ...



PC building has been a great hobby of mine for some 25 years , much longer than any photography..
It is easy to get equal performance at half the price, or much better performance at a similar price point than a mac. Using either windows, or different flavors of linux. much more flexibility and you can save a lot you can spend towards e..g. glass by not jumping on the money milking imac bandwagon


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## BeenThere (Feb 9, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> PC building has been a great hobby of mine for some 25 years , much longer than any photography..
> It is easy to get equal performance at half the price, or much better performance at a similar price point than a mac. Using either windows, or different flavors of linux. much more flexibility and you can save a lot you can spend towards e..g. glass by not jumping on the money milking imac bandwagon


I use both a MacBook Pro and a home built PC. I use the Mac for everyday tasks like word processing, spreadsheets, calendars, address book, etc, etc.
I use the PC for the heavier duty photo editing and processor intensive tasks.


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## AlanF (Feb 9, 2019)

Mac broke into the college market in the 1980s by giving academics a 40% discount on desktops, including peripherals such as laser printers, which were horribly expensive otherwise. Software became available early on for Macs that allowed composing of chemical structures. Macs became the mainstay of chemists and biologists, as well as creative artists, whereas PCs tended to be used by number crunchers, physicists and engineers, as well as the university administrators who used business software. Apple did some very important things early on by insisting that software used the same keyboard shortcuts etc so it was simpler to use different packages without referring to manuals. Accordingly, geeks preferred PCs in the early days because they required more technical expertise.


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## Viggo (Feb 9, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> I assume you are an artist based on your response


I wish... I’m too poor to buy pc’s... my iPhone 5 is nearly 7 years old and my iMac is 10 years old. I buy Apple because I can’t afford to switch too often and I still need it to just work..


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## bluediablo (Feb 9, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> From a north american viewpoint.. Thew more sensible Europeans here never bought into the apple hype except for the artsy people (mainly artists and art history students) who are well known for having little technical and - business sense who buy apple for looks not being hindered by any hardware knowledge.



LOL


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## stevelee (Feb 10, 2019)

Antono Refa said:


> So now is Apple is king of two niches. Good for them.
> 
> 
> 
> I spent half my career within walking distance of a college campus.



15 or 20 years ago the campus here discouraged the use of Macs. The musicians and most of the scientists told the tech folks they didn’t care about that, they would do their own support. So it depends what half of your career was spent where.


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## stevelee (Feb 10, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Mac broke into the college market in the 1980s by giving academics a 40% discount on desktops, including peripherals such as laser printers, which were horribly expensive otherwise. Software became available early on for Macs that allowed composing of chemical structures. Macs became the mainstay of chemists and biologists, as well as creative artists, whereas PCs tended to be used by number crunchers, physicists and engineers, as well as the university administrators who used business software. Apple did some very important things early on by insisting that software used the same keyboard shortcuts etc so it was simpler to use different packages without referring to manuals. Accordingly, geeks preferred PCs in the early days because they required more technical expertise.


The stereotype in the olden days was that Macs were for people who did stuff with their computers; PCs were for folks who did stuff to their computers. Reality now is that most software that was developed for Macs has been ported to PCs and now Windows, and runs about as identically as possible, with some adjustment between Command and Control keys. 

But all this Mac and PC stuff is veering way too off topic. Looking at different business models was sort of to the point many messages back. I don’t see the point of defensiveness over brands, like a kind of tribalism. Buy and use what you want. I don’t care what you use and see no reason to care. For a while on this board I kept seeing messages from folks who were ready to “jump ship.” I don’t think I’m on a ship. I have Sony products in several rooms of the house. I just don’t happen to own any of their cameras.


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## Antono Refa (Feb 10, 2019)

stevelee said:


> 15 or 20 years ago the campus here discouraged the use of Macs. The musicians and most of the scientists told the tech folks they didn’t care about that, they would do their own support. So it depends what half of your career was spent where.



I live within walking distance of a college for 8 years, and one bus trip away from a university for additional 5. beside the occasional hipster with a Mac seating next to me in a restaurant or coffeehouse, haven't seen any.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 10, 2019)

Apple has less than 10% of the global laptop market. Apple is the 4th largest laptop maker.


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