# Canon’s profit likely to slide 40% on European slowdown



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 18, 2019)

> *NIKKEI Asian Review – TOKYO* — Canon‘s operating profit is on track to sink 40% this year to slightly over 200 billion yen ($1.85 billion), Nikkei has learned, amid a slowing European economy and slumping chip market.
> The Japanese company’s profit for the year ending in December is seen falling roughly 60 billion yen short of its downgraded guidance in April. Sales likely will shrink 6% to a figure above 3.7 trillion yen, off about 100 billion yen from April’s forecast. The full-year projections are expected to be lowered again when Canon presents first-half earnings next week.
> Worsening economic conditions in Europe have caused corporate clients to hold off on investments, softening sales of office equipment and other machinery. The depreciation of the euro against the yen also undercut profitability in exports. Read...




[url=https://www.canonrumors.com/canons-profit-likely-to-slide-40-on-european-slowdown/]Continue reading...


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 18, 2019)

For context, Sony is forecasting a 45% drop in net income for FY19, and Nikon is predicting only a 25% drop for FY20 (their respective FYs are different, but in all cases these are forecasts for the next FY).


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## edoorn (Jul 18, 2019)

Drop a great pro mirrorless and I will single handed give the European economy a huge boost!


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## YuengLinger (Jul 18, 2019)

Might be small, but I believe a percentage is also attributable to photographers hesitating to commit to mirrorless while being reluctant to spend more on dSLR. Applies to all the major brands. A transitional phase, surely.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 18, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Might be small, but I believe a percentage is also attributable to photographers hesitating to commit to mirrorless while being reluctant to spend more on dSLR. Applies to all the major brands. A transitional phase, surely.


Very small, given that we’re discussing PnL at the corporate level, and their respective imaging businesses (Nikon notwithstanding) are one relatively small line item among many.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 18, 2019)

Where are the updates for 80D, 7D, M6, M5? Every middle-range camera is outdated by a few years now.


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 18, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Very small, given that we’re discussing PnL at the corporate level, and their respective imaging businesses (Nikon notwithstanding) are one relatively small line item among many.



So what do you see as a long term trend for all the companies producing our beloved gear? Will we look back at a golden age and forward to more expensive cameras and lenses?

Jack


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## Viggo (Jul 18, 2019)

There’s A LOT of tourist here now, and barley anyone has a “proper” camera. I see only cellphones. Couple of years ago, and no more than that, all I saw was dslr’s and compact’s. Most of the tourist had both plus camcorder.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 18, 2019)

Viggo said:


> There’s A LOT of tourist here now, and barley anyone has a “proper” camera. I see only cellphones. Couple of years ago, and no more than that, all I saw was dslr’s and compact’s. Most of the tourist had both plus camcorder.



Canon stated a few years ago that the decline in DSLR sales came from the lower end models such as Rebels... and I definitely see similar lack of "proper" cameras when I travel as well.

Older people were a big part of the compact market, and even they've become more comfortable using smartphones and iPads (eeek!) for photography.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 18, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Canon‘s operating profit is on track



Yay!



Canon Rumors Guy said:


> to sink 40% this year



Oops.


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## unfocused (Jul 18, 2019)

Viggo said:


> There’s A LOT of tourist here now, and barley anyone has a “proper” camera. I see only cellphones. Couple of years ago, and no more than that, all I saw was dslr’s and compact’s. Most of the tourist had both plus camcorder.



But, the big question is: are they carrying around fewer office copiers? From the story:



> Worsening economic conditions in Europe have caused corporate clients to hold off on investments, softening sales of office equipment and other machinery.


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## Ozarker (Jul 18, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Where are the updates for 80D, 7D, M6, M5? Every middle-range camera is outdated by a few years now.


90D is in the pipeline. 7D series is dead. There will not be a 7D Mark III.


blackcoffee17 said:


> Where are the updates for 80D, 7D, M6, M5? Every middle-range camera is outdated by a few years now.


90D is in the pipeline. 7D series is dead. There will not be a 7D Mark III. New M5 coming this year too. Where you been?


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 18, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Very small, given that we’re discussing PnL at the corporate level, and their respective imaging businesses (Nikon notwithstanding) are one relatively small line item among many.



Yes, the reports here are reporting PnL at the corporate level inclusive of all divisions and not just imaging. Moving forwards, I think Canon will provide more meaningful data regarding the actual contraction and impact of the shrinking imaging market. Sony decided to roll up their IP&S (Imaging Products and Solutions) under their EP&S (Electronic Products and Solutions) division in 2018, which now sweeps losses under the rug so to speak.


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## docsmith (Jul 18, 2019)

Viggo said:


> There’s A LOT of tourist here now, and barley anyone has a “proper” camera. I see only cellphones. Couple of years ago, and no more than that, all I saw was dslr’s and compact’s. Most of the tourist had both plus camcorder.


I travel a lot for both work and fun. I have seen a wide range including being shocked that I am the only person with the ILC at epic photo destinations to shocked how everyone has a DSLR at more casual places. Recent trip to Italy (Amalfi, Capri, Naples) I was very surprised as I would say most people taking pictures had a ILC. But I have also seen it the other way, Alaska, Sedona/Grand Canyon, Arizona, etc, most if not all but me had phones. Iceland was even a bit of a surprise, for every dedicated photographer with tripods galore (of which there were many), I would say there were 2-3 people with phones. I even had someone walk up to me at Kirkjufellfoss and ask me why this waterfall is so famous. I tried to explain how it perfectly aligns with Kirkjufell in the background, received a blank stare and then muttered something about "Game of Thrones" at which point they snapped a picture with their phone and walked back to their tour bus.

But, overall, I am seeing the whole gammut. There are a good number of dedicated "hobbyist" photographers (usually identified with annoyed look on their face waiting for people to get out of their shot), a good number of people with better cameras wanting to document their travels (camera strapped around their neck), and then the mob with their phones.


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## amorse (Jul 18, 2019)

Jack Douglas said:


> So what do you see as a long term trend for all the companies producing our beloved gear? Will we look back at a golden age and forward to more expensive cameras and lenses?
> 
> Jack


I'm betting on a move to more advanced cameras being the norm in the short term - high end cameras seem to still be selling for now as computational cell phone photography hasn't yet caught up to all the benefits of full size cameras. Without the bottom end of the market supporting the top end I would bet the prices go up, or the rapid pace of innovation goes down. I'm not sure the market will bare much higher prices for camera bodies, though I also think Canon will try to find a new niche at the bottom of the market. Sony has that with camera modules for cell phones, while Canon has gone for medical imaging (which I'm betting has fewer but more expensive sales than cell phones). I think there was also a report of Canon trying to make back up cameras for vehicles, so that could fill in the market space at the low end of the spectrum too I would think.

It's anyone's guess as to what happens, but I'm pretty sure everyone will focus on the higher end market and try to leverage the high profitability of full frame cameras, but also seek some other parallel product sales to insulate against the fluctuating camera market. Then again, maybe they end up getting tired of this shrinking market and put talk of their eggs in another basket which is going strong (cell phone cameras, backup camera, medical imaging - I don't see any of those drying up over night), moving out of ILCs entirely. Anyone's guess.


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## amorse (Jul 18, 2019)

Viggo said:


> There’s A LOT of tourist here now, and barley anyone has a “proper” camera. I see only cellphones. Couple of years ago, and no more than that, all I saw was dslr’s and compact’s. Most of the tourist had both plus camcorder.


There's definitely a lot of tourists around with cell phone cameras, but I just left Banff and Jasper, and I saw loads of ILCs. I think there's still a population of people out there who want to upgrade their camera for their big trip, and I think a lot of people have aspirations of getting that amazing image that they'll cherish forever, not just a memory of their trip. I think cell phone cameras own the casual market, but ILCs are still perceived as being Superior for "special" photos.


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## unfocused (Jul 18, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> ...Older people...



Hey! I resemble that remark!


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## ethanz (Jul 18, 2019)

Is the European economy really expected to down turn right now?


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## unfocused (Jul 18, 2019)

ethanz said:


> Is the European economy really expected to down turn right now?


Business hates uncertainty. Brexit, Iran Sanctions, Trade Disputes, Russian Meddling, Populism...the list goes on.


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## ethanz (Jul 18, 2019)

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/economy-finance/ecfin_forecast_spring_070519_overview_en_0.pdf


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## LensFungus (Jul 18, 2019)

It's my fault. The only Canon product I bought this year is the lens hood for the Canon EF-M 32mm F1.4. SORRY!


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 18, 2019)

International Corp's always blame currency fluctuations or a business downturn somewhere when their financials take a dive. Who wants to put out a press release that says "nobody buys what we are selling anymore"? I just came back from a vacation to a tourist hotspot and I could count the number of ILC's I saw on two or three hands. Unless one of the big manufacturers comes up with a very compelling reason for consumers to start buying dedicated cameras again I'd get used to seeing headlines like this.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Jul 19, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Might be small, but I believe a percentage is also attributable to photographers hesitating to commit to mirrorless while being reluctant to spend more on dSLR. Applies to all the major brands. A transitional phase, surely.


This is to me the most logical explanation for canon


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## Del Paso (Jul 19, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> It's my fault. The only Canon product I bought this year is the lens hood for the Canon EF-M 32mm F1.4. SORRY!


Your fault is inexcusable, I'd suggest a nice little seppuku !


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## stevelee (Jul 19, 2019)

docsmith said:


> I travel a lot for both work and fun. I have seen a wide range including being shocked that I am the only person with the ILC at epic photo destinations to shocked how everyone has a DSLR at more casual places. Recent trip to Italy (Amalfi, Capri, Naples) I was very surprised as I would say most people taking pictures had a ILC. But I have also seen it the other way, Alaska, Sedona/Grand Canyon, Arizona, etc, most if not all but me had phones. Iceland was even a bit of a surprise, for every dedicated photographer with tripods galore (of which there were many), I would say there were 2-3 people with phones. I even had someone walk up to me at Kirkjufellfoss and ask me why this waterfall is so famous. I tried to explain how it perfectly aligns with Kirkjufell in the background, received a blank stare and then muttered something about "Game of Thrones" at which point they snapped a picture with their phone and walked back to their tour bus.
> 
> But, overall, I am seeing the whole gammut. There are a good number of dedicated "hobbyist" photographers (usually identified with annoyed look on their face waiting for people to get out of their shot), a good number of people with better cameras wanting to document their travels (camera strapped around their neck), and then the mob with their phones.


A large percentage of the folks I see shooting with their phones are taking pictures of themselves with just a bit of the scenery in the background showing up around themselves. Phones do great for that, other than without the selfie stick the face is distorted by the close distance.

As for the people shooting more seriously, I'm the outlier with my G7X II, while most of the others are lugging around DSLRs. Folks I know travel with crop Nikons and one zoom with a large ratio, so not as much to deal with as I do when using my DSLR.

Usually I'm not that much concerned about what other people think, but I would never use my iPad to take pictures, out in public anyway. (I did take a friend's picture once as we sat around in his den, and I use the picture with his contact info on my devices. I think that is about it.) Using an iPad for photography just looks so stupid. If that is all someone has, I don't begrudge them. I just wouldn't want to be seen doing it myself. I don't know whether my iPad has a better camera or worse camera than my iPhone. I don't care. I'm going to use the phone, if the two of them are all I have. I know that's silly.


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## Kit. (Jul 19, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> It's my fault. The only Canon product I bought this year is the lens hood for the Canon EF-M 32mm F1.4. SORRY!


The only Canon product I bought this year was actually an MFU. In Europe. So it's not my fault that the sales of Canon's office equipment in Europe are slipping.

I also wanted to buy a new Powershot, but Canon is still too slow to deliver.


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## justaCanonuser (Jul 19, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Might be small, but I believe a percentage is also attributable to photographers hesitating to commit to mirrorless while being reluctant to spend more on dSLR. Applies to all the major brands. A transitional phase, surely.


Well, Sony users shouldn't be reluctant because of Sony's DSLR offerings... I guess you can't find many unused A-900 copies on any shelves anymore


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## justaCanonuser (Jul 19, 2019)

The tragicomic side of Europe's economic growth slowdown is that it is caused by guys with bad hair style: Trump and Boris (note his Russian first name) Johnson. Let Kim Young-Un join this club with a little nuclear thrill, and not only the camera industry's profits will decline a bit more...


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 19, 2019)

stevelee said:


> A large percentage of the folks I see shooting with their phones are taking pictures of themselves with just a bit of the scenery in the background showing up around themselves. Phones do great for that, other than without the selfie stick the face is distorted by the close distance.
> 
> As for the people shooting more seriously, I'm the outlier with my G7X II, while most of the others are lugging around DSLRs. Folks I know travel with crop Nikons and one zoom with a large ratio, so not as much to deal with as I do when using my DSLR.
> 
> Usually I'm not that much concerned about what other people think, but I would never use my iPad to take pictures, out in public anyway. (I did take a friend's picture once as we sat around in his den, and I use the picture with his contact info on my devices. I think that is about it.) Using an iPad for photography just looks so stupid. If that is all someone has, I don't begrudge them. I just wouldn't want to be seen doing it myself. I don't know whether my iPad has a better camera or worse camera than my iPhone. I don't care. I'm going to use the phone, if the two of them are all I have. I know that's silly.



I personally don't really bring my ILC camera gear with me on trips anymore. Obviously there are certain exceptions if I'm travelling to somewhere very very remote.. but for the most part I've found my smartphone can do an acceptable job. This has been even more the case now that I've upgraded to a P30 Pro. For myself, a substantial difference would involve one of my Sony FF bodies, a few primes or a constant aperture zoom and that would mean carrying around a dedicated camera bag and a 3lb setup around my neck/shoulder pretty much for the duration of my trip. Since I can now cover 16mm to 125mm on my phone and shoot 4k in a IP68 rated body with all-day battery life, its makes me less conflicted about actually bringing heavier camera gear. The obvious caveat will be the trade-off in IQ and low light performance, but what I gain is the ability to enjoy any particular moment more without the encumbrances of an ILC.


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## stevelee (Jul 20, 2019)

I put a $29.95 battery in my old iPhone 6S back in December, so it should hold me for several more years. Instead of upgrading the phone to get better cameras and tricking them out with accessories, I'd rather put the money into actual cameras and/or lenses for my real cameras. No matter how much faster a processor the phone has, I find that I don't talk any faster on the phone.

Still, the old 6S can take decent pictures within its limitations. I prefer having the control I get with the G7X II, and it still fits in a pants or jacket pocket. A lot of times instead of networking the phone and camera together to get GPS tags in the camera shots' metadata, I'll just shoot an occasional picture with the phone if there is some doubt in my mind quite where I am.

I decided last year that I'd make 13" x 19" prints of some of my nicer shots from the 2017 Hawaii trip, and frame them to hang in my front room, which has sort of a tropical beach décor anyway. I looked at pictures I had posted on my web pages about the trip and picked four I liked. I went into Bridge to find the edited RAW files to prepare them for making prints. I couldn't find one of the pictures, though. It turned out that one of them was a beach shot I had made with the iPhone. The finished print looks great on the wall.


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## YuengLinger (Jul 20, 2019)

justaCanonuser said:


> The tragicomic side of Europe's economic growth slowdown is that it is caused by guys with bad hair style: Trump and Boris (note his Russian first name) Johnson. Let Kim Young-Un join this club with a little nuclear thrill, and not only the camera industry's profits will decline a bit more...


Please keep this site, this one site, free of politics. As much as we fuss over gear, it is so nice to have a sanctuary which excludes the same stuff we read, see, and hear everywhere else.


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## TAF (Jul 20, 2019)

As long as there is photo enforced traffic laws, Canon should have a market for low end DSLR's.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 21, 2019)

docsmith said:


> I tried to explain how it perfectly aligns with Kirkjufell in the background, received a blank stare and then muttered something about "Game of Thrones" at which point they snapped a picture with their phone and walked back to their tour bus.



It’s like that in Dubrovnik now too.


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## justaCanonuser (Jul 22, 2019)

YuengLinger said:


> Please keep this site, this one site, free of politics. As much as we fuss over gear, it is so nice to have a sanctuary which excludes the same stuff we read, see, and hear everywhere else.


I apologize, sorry! Like many Europeans, currently waves of black humor overcome me sometimes. But seriously, what I said about the state of international trade is what already happens. The rising problems will most probably hit the camera industry further, since consumers will hold back on products they can do without, if necessary. This can cause a slow-down of new camera products hitting the market during the next years. And that's what we all are interested in, I guess.


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## justaCanonuser (Jul 22, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> It’s like that in Dubrovnik now too.


Yes, but in Iceland the very sensitive arctic flora really suffers where the mass tourism hits the ground. I traveled several times to Iceland in the past 20 years, but nowadays you can't visit some famous places at least in summer anymore because they are too crowded. Fortunately, there are still some breathtaking places where you can go, in particular the remote ones...


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## Del Paso (Jul 22, 2019)

justaCanonuser said:


> The tragicomic side of Europe's economic growth slowdown is that it is caused by guys with bad hair style: Trump and Boris (note his Russian first name) Johnson. Let Kim Young-Un join this club with a little nuclear thrill, and not only the camera industry's profits will decline a bit more...


 Europe needs another Delilah!


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## YuengLinger (Jul 22, 2019)

justaCanonuser said:


> I apologize, sorry! Like many Europeans, currently waves of black humor overcome me sometimes. But seriously, what I said about the state of international trade is what already happens. The rising problems will most probably hit the camera industry further, since consumers will hold back on products they can do without, if necessary. This can cause a slow-down of new camera products hitting the market during the next years. And that's what we all are interested in, I guess.


Yes, everything can be seen through the lens of personal political beliefs. And some of us are so immersed in politics we respond reflexively to all topics by spewing more politics. But surely we can set aside some spaces, such as this one.

Many on CR tend to say some amazingly silly things about gear, myself included! Claiming we can't get the gear we need at the price we want to pay because politician X in Country Y imposed policy Z seems to be as insightful and compelling as a whole series of photos taken with the lens cap on. Oh wait, we've had those too, right? Talking about dynamic range?


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## Rudeofus (Jul 25, 2019)

ethanz said:


> https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/economy-finance/ecfin_forecast_spring_070519_overview_en_0.pdf


European economic forecasts always look like that. It also was during and shortly after the financial crisis of 2007/2008:
2007: economy strong as ever, massive growth!
2008: oh no, a brief slow down, but forecast is excellent, massive growth in 2009
2009: oh no, another slowdown. but future will be bright, predicting growth by 2010 and massive growth in 2011
2010: well, stagnation is was, but growth will return in 2011 and will be huge in 2012
2011: stagnation! but growth will come in 2012, and will accelerate by 2013
....

The point of economic forecasts is not prediction, but shaping of future. Overly optimistic forecasts are seen as a cheap means of boosting the economy. Investments based on these "forecasts" are great, as long as it's other people's money spent on these investments


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## Viggo (Jul 26, 2019)

Saw some headlines again saying Canon’s profits and income are both down 55% and “Can they turn it around” etc... it seems like the collective photo”media” is out to get Canon. It annoys me more than it should.

I guess this is in danger of being the same thing when a bank warns there might be a strike and that ATM’s might run out of cash, everybody and their mother storms out of the house to take out as much cash as possible, and as a result the ATM’s actually do run out of money. If everybody just used them like every day, they wouldn’t. 

So since everybody slams Canon it will affect their sales just because of people believing crap like this...


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## ericbowles (Jul 26, 2019)

Here's a link to Canon's financial results for the second quarter. The Investor slide show has good segment detail.








Investor Relations | Canon global


Canon's global top page for Investor Relations.




global.canon





Sales are off 18% in the Imaging Products group and nearly 25% with cameras. The decline is attributed to a slowdown in DSLR sales to the lower end part of the market, and declines in virtually every region. There was a greater decline in Asia ex-Japan (mainly China). Operating profit in the Imaging Group has declined 70% from the prior year and the forecast is just a 33% decline for the rest of the year - which seems optimistic. Inventory levels are up sharply due to slow DSLR sales (an increase of 20% in terms of days sales). This suggests additional discounts on DSLR cameras as they try to work down the excess. R&D spending is being held flat and is mainly related to mirrorless.

The good news is Canon is in a leading market position. They are seeing good performance in mirrorless - especially full frame cameras. The bad news is they suffer the most from market declines, and have the biggest entry level DSLR lineup which is where the problems are. Canon is not doing well in other areas such as MFD's, printers and copiers, so a restructuring might be ahead.


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## unfocused (Jul 26, 2019)

ericbowles said:


> ...Inventory levels are up sharply due to slow DSLR sales (an increase of 20% in terms of days sales). This suggests additional discounts on DSLR cameras as they try to work down the excess...



The rise in inventory levels may be particularly concerning for Canon since many of their DSLR models are coming due for a refresh. I'm guessing we will see some good buys at the lower end of the DSLR line in the coming months and probably a round of printer rebates.


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## ethanz (Jul 26, 2019)

unfocused said:


> The rise in inventory levels may be particularly concerning for Canon since many of their DSLR models are coming due for a refresh. I'm guessing we will see some good buys at the lower end of the DSLR line in the coming months and probably a round of printer rebates.


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## unfocused (Jul 26, 2019)

ethanz said:


> View attachment 185804


Ha! One of these days I might actually keep the printer...nah! Not bloody likely.


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