# Full Frame Astrophotography DSLR Coming [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 28, 2015)

```
We’re told that Canon will release their first full frame DSLR geared to astrophotography some time in 2016. It is unknown which camera will get the conversion to an “a” model.</p>
<p>This would follow the APS-C astrophotography DSLRs from the past, the EOS 20Da and the EOS 60Da.</p>
<p>Nikon is about to release the D810a, which is their first full frame astrophotography camera.</p>
```


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## tron (May 28, 2015)

I am not sure if it is the best idea to be the same as the photo of this post 5DSRa.

It would be much better to make a 5DIIIa type camera. Less mpixels = less noise in high iso. In addition, less megapixels = better resistance in star trailing.


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## Sith Zombie (May 28, 2015)

Maybe the 6Da? Cheap with a great sensor. I feel the AF of the 5d series would increase the price and is not really needed on what is a pretty specialist tool.


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## surapon (May 28, 2015)

Dear Teachers and Friends.
Would you please teach me = " What are the quality/ functions of DSLR geared to astrophotography that regular DSLR that we have , do not have ?
Sorry, I never do Astrophotos before, Just Shoot the moon and shoot the comet( Comet Panstarrs 3/10/2013).
Thank you, Sir/ Madame.
Surapon


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## tron (May 28, 2015)

Sith Zombie said:


> Maybe the 6Da? Cheap with a great sensor. I feel the AF of the 5d series would increase the price and is not really needed on what is a pretty specialist tool.


This is an excellent idea. In fact I think there are some sites that astro modify existing 6D cameras...


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## tron (May 28, 2015)

@Surapon: They improve the response to Ha mostly and possibly to IR...


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## Sith Zombie (May 28, 2015)

tron said:


> Sith Zombie said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the 6Da? Cheap with a great sensor. I feel the AF of the 5d series would increase the price and is not really needed on what is a pretty specialist tool.
> ...


Yeah, makes sense. After the 6Dmkii hits, they could keep the original 6D going as the astro version. New camera and market for minimum R&D, tooling costs etc


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## surapon (May 28, 2015)

tron said:


> @Surapon: They improve the response to Ha mostly and possibly to IR...



Thanks you, Sir, Dear friend Mr. Tron.
I know IR = Infared ( ???), But What is " Ha", Sir ?
And why why we need to improve the sensitive of IR and Ma for Astrophotos shooting ?
Have a great day, Sir.
Surapon


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## Djaaf (May 28, 2015)

Ha stands for H-Alpha, one of the primary emission band of the Hydrogen. 
It's a deep red that's pretty much invisible to human eyes and so the filters before the sensor tend to cut it out. 
But in the Astro-photo domain, that's the principal band of light since most of the universe is Hydrogen (emmission nebula emits mostly in that band (M42, California, Laguna, etc...) It's not that important for galaxies or stellar cluster which emits light in pretty much every band). 
So conventionnal Canon DSLRs cut out something like 60-70% of your most useful frequency in Astro.. 

That's mostly why there's a few companies providing filter replacement for DSLR. Once the new filter is installed, you have to use a custom white-balance to take daylight picture because the red channel will be a lot stronger than before, but you can still use the camera normally. 
The filter replacement operation is not cheap though (around 300-400€ depending on the camera) and the warranty is immediatly voided by the operation. So, Canon offering "a" models is mostly a good news. 

If you still got questions, shoot, i'll try to answer.  

Djaaf


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## ajfotofilmagem (May 28, 2015)

surapon said:


> Dear Teachers and Friends.
> Would you please teach me = " What are the quality/ functions of DSLR geared to astrophotography that regular DSLR that we have , do not have ?
> Sorry, I never do Astrophotos before, Just Shoot the moon and shoot the comet( Comet Panstarrs 3/10/2013).
> Thank you, Sir/ Madame.
> Surapon


Dear friend Surapon. The specific cameras for astrophotography (20Da 60Da) are more sensitive to infrared and also ultraviolet, that normal cameras do not capture. In addition, dedicated cameras to astrophotografy comes with appropriate software to Post Production needed to treat images of this type ..


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## BeenThere (May 28, 2015)

Isn't this modification more for deep field astrophotography rather than landscape / star photography? Low noise at high ISO is what most of us want, plus some very wide aperature (like f/1.4) wide angle lenses with low coma.


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## Djaaf (May 28, 2015)

Yes, it's a modification intended for deep-field astrophoto. 
It will not really improve much on UWA milky way shots (except that you'll get to see some red blobs in the milky way where the nebulas are at their brightest.)

Djaaf.


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## weixing (May 28, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> surapon said:
> 
> 
> > Dear Teachers and Friends.
> ...


Hi,
They still block infrared.. H-alpha is deep red, but not infrared yet.

A cooled 5Da will be nice... ;D

Have a nice day.


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## tron (May 28, 2015)

surapon said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > @Surapon: They improve the response to Ha mostly and possibly to IR...
> ...


Hello, 

Ha is a specific spectral line emitted by many nebulae that normally look very faint.

Off topic: In addition the sun is spectacular at Ha. (Google for Ha telescopes) 

Unfortunatelly a normal (Bayern type) DSLR is not the best way to take pictures of it (hence the off topic declaration)


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## H. Jones (May 28, 2015)

I think after choice of the 60D for the 60Da we should expect a 6Da coming. The banding noise on a 6D is lower than even a 5D mark III, which I suppose would help in astro. 

Unless of course, Canon wants to target the astro D810 and make a 5DSa, which would be pretty incredible, if not for the high-ISO noise. But since full-frame cameras can use wider focal length lenses with wide apertures, I think it might negate the difference between a 60Da and a 5DSa, since you could use a 24mm F/1.4 or a 14MM f/2.8 with longer exposures without startrails on a full frame camera. And I mean, the 5DS is still at the noise level of a 7D Mark II, which is an improvement over a 60D anyway.


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## Canon1 (May 28, 2015)

tron said:


> I am not sure if it is the best idea to be the same as the photo of this post 5DSRa.
> 
> It would be much better to make a 5DIIIa type camera. Less mpixels = less noise in high iso. In addition, less megapixels = better resistance in star trailing.



It's better to have more pixels... more resolution. For DSLR astrophotography with conventional lenses, most of us are reach limited and therefore opt for a crop sensor. While noise is a huge factor for astrophotography, ISO 1600 on any current rebel is excellent in the noise department when you consider image stacking. If this is as good in the noise department as the 7DII, it would give you a FF view with really excellent resolution and outstanding IQ. 

Also, if you were using this camera it is assumed that you would be using it on a tracking mount, and with a quality tracking mount and good polar alignment, star trailing is not really a factor. 

Actual sensitivity to HA will be a factor. If canon releases this as a dual use camera it will likely not be as sensitive as simply modifying a stock camera... which is also much cheaper than buying XDa camera... if history repeats itself.


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## NancyP (May 28, 2015)

Yes, the mods are more for deep field than for wide field (landscape) astrophotography. One of the issues about mods is that the color response for daytime use is altered some when you remove the filtration of far red wavelengths. This can be adjusted for using a screw-in or clip-in filter on the adapted SLR. (See Astronomix filters)

This also brings up the issue of whether the deep field astrophotographer would be better off with a CCD and filter set. The issues that favor the astro-specific CCD are high quantum efficiency (but CMOS is catching up) and sensor cooling, allowing operation for long periods without getting extraneous signal from warming of the sensor. Some people shoot with their SLRs in a Peltier device cooled chamber (10 to 20 degrees below ambient).

The 6D is a darn good low-light camera without pattern noise (banding). Roger Clark of Clarkvision claims that the 7D2 is even better from the standpoint of no banding AND lower thermal noise than the 6D.


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## pedro (May 28, 2015)

*Just a question* as I really don't know much of the technical aspects:* Is an "a" type cam strictly considered an* *astro only cam*, or is the "a" configuaration an enhanced asset which allows you to do both *daylight photography and outstanding astrophotography*? 
After posting I read this, http://randombio.com/d90infrared.html but the question remains...
Is it possible, to manually adjust the white balance in post (RAW) to a "normal photography" color scale?

Thank you for any hint on that. Regards, Peter

Otherwise, if they'd announce a 6Da I would add it to my 5D3 and be happy camper for years...;-)


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## pedro (May 28, 2015)

*Just a question* as I really don't know much of the technical aspects:* Is an "a" type cam strictly considered an* *astro only cam*, or is the "a" configuaration an enhanced asset which allows you to do both *daylight photography and outstanding astrophotography*? 

After posting I read this, http://randombio.com/d90infrared.html but the question remains...
Is it possible, to manually adjust the white balance in post (RAW) to a "normal photography" color scale?
Thank you for any hint on that. Regards, Peter

Otherwise, if they'd announce a 6Da I would add it to my 5D3 and be happy camper for years...;-)

Or as a fellow poster put it, how much more sensitive is a dual use camera?


Canon1 said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > Actual sensitivity to HA will be a factor. If canon releases this as a dual use camera it will likely not be as sensitive as simply modifying a stock camera... which is also much cheaper than buying XDa camera... if history repeats itself.


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## Auntie (May 28, 2015)

I once saw an article that said that the proper term is photo-astrography for shooting stars. Astrophotography refers to being in space and shooting photos. True?


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## meywd (May 28, 2015)

Auntie said:


> I once saw an article that said that the proper term is photo-astrography for shooting stars. Astrophotography refers to being in space and shooting photos. True?



from Wikipedia


> Astrophotography is a specialized type of photography for recording images of astronomical objects and large areas of the night sky. The first photograph of an astronomical object (the Moon) was taken in 1840


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## Don Haines (May 28, 2015)

One thing you don't need is a kick-ass 63 point AF system... but a really really good central point would be great.....


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## StoneColdCoffee (May 28, 2015)

This would be some great news. 
It sounds a bit more like deep sky astrophotography, like previous canon versions. I hope it is for us normal landscape astro people. but either way its a win for some people. Ive found my 6D to outperform the old 5DII but i haven't been out much with it. Hoping soon. 
basically this would be a great idea for Canon as Sony and Nikon keep advancing too. Hopefully it will be an improvement in low light with large pixels  So im hoping more for the 6DIIa than the 5IVa just on a cost basis. 
And wish it was coming out in 2015 so we could see a price drop in the 2016 season. Its still a bit hard to watch the price come down so fast after a year. But its all a choice. Maybe i should sell to fund this more..but i wont be quitting my day job  Either way its always exciting to see technology pushing forward. Eventually with the mirror-less option.


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## bdunbar79 (May 28, 2015)

Auntie said:


> I once saw an article that said that the proper term is photo-astrography for shooting stars. Astrophotography refers to being in space and shooting photos. True?



Nope.


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## weixing (May 28, 2015)

pedro said:


> *Just a question* as I really don't know much of the technical aspects:* Is an "a" type cam strictly considered an* *astro only cam*, or is the "a" configuaration an enhanced asset which allows you to do both *daylight photography and outstanding astrophotography*?
> 
> After posting I read this, http://randombio.com/d90infrared.html but the question remains...
> Is it possible, to manually adjust the white balance in post (RAW) to a "normal photography" color scale?
> ...


Hi,
I used to had a mod 450D for Astrophotography use and I try to use it to shoot normal photo, but the colour turns out very odd even if I use custom white balance. What I did was to get a OWB (Original White Balance) clip on filter for it and work quite well, but the negative side were that, the viewfinder become darker with a green/blue cast, you can't use EF-S lens on it (for crop DSLR) and I think can't use lens at f2.8 or faster.

Anyway, now also got clip on filter for EOS full frame DSLR, but will turn your DSLR to "mirrorless" camera.

Have a nice day.


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## tron (May 28, 2015)

Canon1 said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure if it is the best idea to be the same as the photo of this post 5DSRa.
> ...


Astrophotography does not refer necessarily to photographing pure sky. In landscape astrophotography you cannot use tracking mounts so the smaller pixel the less time you can expose without startrails.


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## meywd (May 28, 2015)

tron said:


> Canon1 said:
> 
> 
> > tron said:
> ...



But do you need a modified camera for landscape astro?


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## rfdesigner (May 28, 2015)

I've done a bit of astrophotography on film, dslr and CCD.

Dear Canon.

Please include:

A: Temperature sensor on chip, fed to either an electrical or optical output so camera can be externally setpoint cooled.
B: If possible a heat sink from sensor to Camera base.
C: In camera dark frame removal from a RAW image stored on the card (so user can upload image to camera) using a scaled dark frame removal algorithum.
D: In camera flat frame division from a RAW image stored on the card (so user can upload image to camera).
E: RAW 100% resolution video, even if only a very small section of the sensor such as 640x480 pixels, with "bright spot tracking" for planetary work. (Commercially this would be significant as it would make a great deep sky and and a great planetary camera in one)
F: toughened/quick release tether port; it's just too easy to trip over a cable in the dark.
G: Please also concider doing a mono version.


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## NancyP (May 28, 2015)

meywd - no, you can do perfectly good landscape astrophotography with an unmodified camera, and most people will use an unmodified camera. 

Modifications are helpful when you want to photograph certain hydrogen-rich nebulae at the telephoto (100 - 600mm) to telescope range. If you aren't into "faint fuzzies" (nebulae), you don't need the wider spectrum hot filter that a modded camera will have. Here's a good explanation by a well-established astrophotographer with the ability to teach:
http://www.astropix.com/HTML/I_ASTROP/EQ_TESTS/60Da_60D_550Da.HTM 
You can see that the changes are the intensification of the red signal. This is a favorite faint fuzzy to photograph.

If you are shooting star clusters, which are not emitting very much in the Ha wavelength, a stock consumer DSLR will do very nicely. Here is a nice (randomly selected) star cluster image of M13, a really big cluster with lots of different star temperatures (notice some stars are blueish, some white, some golden).
http://smithplanet.com/astro/messier/m13/

RFdesigner, I like your suggestions, bigger heat sink and a temperature sensor would be nice, but how well would this work with external chilling of an off-sensor heat sink portion? You can't have a huge temperature gradient inside the camera without affecting the fit of various parts made from different-thermal-properties materials.RAW video capture might be possible with Magic Lantern on a stock Canon, but aren't specialized planetary cameras relatively cheap? As in, not worth the trouble for Canon to duplicate this function?


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## tron (May 29, 2015)

meywd said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > Canon1 said:
> ...


It's not necessary but you could take some interesting pictures of the milky way (which normaly dominates in landscape astro).


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## tron (May 29, 2015)

Crosswind said:


> @tron: Depends on what size you wanna print your result. More pixels doesn't mean less image quality in landscape astrophotography. There are a lot of factors. It's one of the most challenging things in photography, but also one of the most rewarding.
> 
> I don't care about how much pixels a new body has inside. This is one of the less interesting things when it comes to quality.


If you want to print big with a high megapixel count I believe that you have no choice but to limit the exposure time. Otherwise, a star will "occupy" more than one pixel and this is equivalent to star trailing and you will have to look the picture from bigger distance to avoid seeing it. This negates the higher megapixel count. 

By the way, the typical 500 rule does not apply even for a 22Mpixel camera. For example, there are always star trails in FF when using 14mm and 30 sec exposure, so I use an exposure of 20 or 25 sec depending on how much I want to compromise. So a 50Mpixel camera would probably require a 15sec or even less exposure.


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## Canon1 (May 29, 2015)

meywd said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > Canon1 said:
> ...



Of course not, but I would not buy a modded camera if my primary interest was to include the landscape with the Milky Way. For what it's worth, For imagery that includes both a landscape element and the night sky tracking and stacking still produces superior results. Shoot one set of exposures for the sky (tracking) and one for the landscape, then combine. A single 20 or 30 second exposure on a static setup can produce spectacular results, however it is best to track and stack to improve snr.


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## meywd (May 29, 2015)

I only asked to clear a point, if we don't need a modded camera for landscape astro, then the modded camera will be used for deep space objects, and so a 5Ds/5Dsr will be better than a 5DIII/6D


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## cazza132 (May 29, 2015)

An astro 5DsR with sensitivity to Ha would be a great idea. Even better, for me at least, would be a full spectrum version with sensitivity from 350nm to 1100nm. Would be good for shooting infrared and astro. Would also be useful for forensics. With the availability of lens mounted and clip in (X-Clip by Astronomic) UV/IR cut (for ordinary photography), UV/IR cut with Ha pass (for astro), IR filters, etc, as full spectrum version makes more sense to me than just an astro version.


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## Canon1 (May 29, 2015)

meywd said:


> I only asked to clear a point, if we don't need a modded camera for landscape astro, then the modded camera will be used for deep space objects, and so a 5Ds/5Dsr will be better than a 5DIII/6D



Apologies, my last response was a reply to tron, but I copied your response into the discussion as well.

I agree with your last statement here. If given the choice and no budget concern, I would opt for a 50mp full frame camera for astro over a 5d3 or 6d. However, I would probably get a stock 5ds/r and modify it rather than buy one that is for astro already. Canon tries to make these XXDa cameras dual use by restricting the spectrum and reducing sensitivity to Ha somewhat while a modded camera Removes the IR filter and generally a clear filter is replaced to retain AF.


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## NancyP (May 29, 2015)

Actually the Da filter is still an IR cut ("hot") filter, but the wavelength cut-off is a little longer than in the stock filter.


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## Canon1 (May 29, 2015)

NancyP said:


> Actually the Da filter is still an IR cut ("hot") filter, but the wavelength cut-off is a little longer than in the stock filter.



Correct. So you can still easily use it as a dual use camera. A spec that makes a stock production canon astro camera less appealing to me.


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## rfdesigner (May 29, 2015)

NancyP said:


> RFdesigner, I like your suggestions, bigger heat sink and a temperature sensor would be nice, but how well would this work with external chilling of an off-sensor heat sink portion? You can't have a huge temperature gradient inside the camera without affecting the fit of various parts made from different-thermal-properties materials.RAW video capture might be possible with Magic Lantern on a stock Canon, but aren't specialized planetary cameras relatively cheap? As in, not worth the trouble for Canon to duplicate this function?



Re chilling: Measuring the sensor means setpoint cooling, the heatsink just means better coupling between the cooler and the sensor. If the whole camera is inside an insulated box it will mean reduced thermal gradients and reduced overchilling of the rest of the camera.. better thermal coupling is gentler on the camera. I'm assuming 0C setpoint not -40C as I have on my CCD.

Yes there are specialised planetary cams, but they all have small sensors. If the sensor could track a planet as it drifted backwards and forwards across the field of view then scope tracking becomes a much reduced issue. Additionally you only need to carry one bit of kit for both jobs, (granted a barlow would be needed to get suitable magnification for planetary but you'd need that for a seperate cam anyway)

Also I came up with another idea for relatively widefield shots:

Use image stabilisation to track the stars for a little bit, thus lengthening the shot length before stars start to elongate, even if it can only shift the image for say +/-5 pixels, that's 10 pixels of movement before trailing vs one pixel, which increases useful shot lengths 10x.. a HUGE improvement. The rate of drift could be learned by training the IS on a star in liveview before taking a shot for real, of course this can't work for really widefield but for many shots it would be a real help.


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## surapon (May 29, 2015)

Thank you, Sir/ Madame, My Teachers and friends.
Now, I have a clear understanding what a great Astrophotography DSLR must have , to create the great Photos of the deep space views.
One day, after I get bore from take the Photos of Beautiful Ladies and Handsome gentleman, I will learn to shoot the deep space/ Sky.
Have a great Weekend, Sir/ Madame.
Surapon


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## pvalpha (May 29, 2015)

H. Jones said:


> I think after choice of the 60D for the 60Da we should expect a 6Da coming. The banding noise on a 6D is lower than even a 5D mark III, which I suppose would help in astro.
> 
> Unless of course, Canon wants to target the astro D810 and make a 5DSa, which would be pretty incredible, if not for the high-ISO noise. But since full-frame cameras can use wider focal length lenses with wide apertures, I think it might negate the difference between a 60Da and a 5DSa, since you could use a 24mm F/1.4 or a 14MM f/2.8 with longer exposures without startrails on a full frame camera. And I mean, the 5DS is still at the noise level of a 7D Mark II, which is an improvement over a 60D anyway.


A 5DSa as you point out would likely have the ISO limitations of the 5DS/DSR reduced or even eliminated. It might make that an attractive camera for those who want high resolution and high ISO even for normal shooting. Just need an appropriate lens filter for Daylight or make the right adjustments to the camera. 

I wonder if anyone thinks the LPF cancellation that the 5DS R has would be a benefit to an astrophotography DSLR?


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## mnclayshooter (May 29, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> One thing you don't need is a kick-ass 63 point AF system... but a really really good central point would be great.....



+1

If the central point could be a tightly grouped set of several points with selectable zone size (something like a set of concentric rings of AF points - 1 single, then a ring of 7 including the central one, then a ring of say, 16 or so at the outer-most edge making for effectively a large center point if selected as a "single zone" (for moon/planets etc) it seems it would help both the on-telescope and long tele lens shooters.


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## rfdesigner (May 29, 2015)

mnclayshooter said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > One thing you don't need is a kick-ass 63 point AF system... but a really really good central point would be great.....
> ...



why?.. you focus in liveview at max magnification. On a scope you use a Bhatinov Mask, with a big lens you can do the same, on a wide angle you just focus for minimum star size.

But I do agree, you don't need 61 cross points, a 6D -3EV AF point might be of a little use, but I wouldn't use it.


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## IglooEater (May 29, 2015)

I'm probably just ignorant, but doesn't the maximum exposure time to avoid star trails have more to do with the final size of the displayed image than the number of megapixels? I mean if all your interested in is pixel-peeping, then yes, you'll have to shorten the exposure, but for actual use, wouldn't one be able to print a 50mp image as large as an 18 mp image? We choose print size based on our needs, not our megapixels, don't we?


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## tron (May 30, 2015)

IglooEater said:


> I'm probably just ignorant, but doesn't the maximum exposure time to avoid star trails have more to do with the final size of the displayed image than the number of megapixels? I mean if all your interested in is pixel-peeping, then yes, you'll have to shorten the exposure, but for actual use, wouldn't one be able to print a 50mp image as large as an 18 mp image? We choose print size based on our needs, not our megapixels, don't we?


Yes, you are right. But in that case you wouldn't take advantage of a high megapixel camera and the high megapixel camera would have higher noise ... which I know would seem less ovious if we do not need highest magnification in printing so I guess we revert back to the previous comparison. But whatever suits you.

Anyway as others have pointed out a high megapixel camera would be more useful in Deep Space Object photography.


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## mnclayshooter (Jun 1, 2015)

rfdesigner said:


> mnclayshooter said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



You're right. I had gotten this mixed up in my head as a potentially multi-use camera (From reading other comments on this thread).


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## emag (Jun 1, 2015)

My vote is for a 6Da. I use my 6D wireless with an Android tablet for astro now and have no real complaints, although I do like the articulating LCD on my 60D. If the new camera is essentially similar to the 6D but with a 50% higher price tag I don't see it doing well. Makes more sense to send a 6D off for modification.


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## StudentOfLight (Jun 6, 2015)

After playing around with some of the 5Ds-R RAW files and seeing what Roger Clark did with the 7D Mark-II, I'm really starting to wonder if this rumoured camera could turn out to use the 50MP sensor. Perhaps Canon would launch a new "6D gen-II platform" with improved build quality but different ergonomics to the 5D-series. The 6D Mark-II might for example use a 20-24MP sensor with improved PDAF while a potential 6Da would use a 50MP sensor with dumbed down PDAF array but instead has better near-IR transmission as well as improved circuitry and shielding.


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## rocketride (Jun 11, 2015)

Sith Zombie said:


> Maybe the 6Da? Cheap with a great sensor. I feel the AF of the 5d series would increase the price and is not really needed on what is a pretty specialist tool.



I think a 6Da would make a lot more sense. Neither the teeny-tiny pixels nor the elaborate AF system of the 5DR(s) would helpful on an astrophotography camera. And burst rate, and stuff like that are completely irrelevant.
So make it a 6Da.


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## tomrukh (Jan 23, 2016)

Should i wait for that camera or go for modified 6d? I'm using 60da right now but need better noise performance :/


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## rfdesigner (Jan 23, 2016)

tomrukh said:


> Should i wait for that camera or go for modified 6d? I'm using 60da right now but need better noise performance :/



what sort of images are you taking/trying to take.

Deep Sky or wide field?


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## tomrukh (Feb 3, 2016)

Both. As an astronomy student I can get both from observatory.


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## rfdesigner (Feb 3, 2016)

tomrukh said:


> Both. As an astronomy student I can get both from observatory.



For wide field.. full frame is a clear winner.. you can use a longer wider lens and capture many more photons... improvements in readout noise are unlikely to help much if you can track. Quantum efficiciency, dark current and skyglow are far more important. The existing 6D is already one of the best DSLRs for astronomy, I'd be suprised if a 6DII could make any meaningful difference to a tracked shot.

For attaching to a telescope it's less clear. What is the size of the corrected field of view?, how much vignetting? What is the sky glow you're fighting? i.e. how short an image can you get away with where the glow still outweighs the readout noise? What is your optimum pixel pitch (i.e how good is your seeing and what focal length are you using and how good is the tracking, excessively fine pixels are bad news for sensitivity), what are your targets.. planetary nebula?, intergalactic flux?, exoplanets? you might need different sensor scales.. or barlows/focal reducers.

Put simply do you need breadth or depth?.. better smaller sensor or worse wider sensor. A 6D will set you back roughly the same as a dedicated CCD astro camera.

Do you want to conduct astrometry?.. in which case having a linear sensor is an advantage so ABG might be bad news.

For reference I have a 12"f5 with a KAF8300 mono camera & filter wheel, this gives me ~0.7arc sec pixel pitch which is roughly optimal for maximum resolution under 2" seeing conditions. (though not optimal for maximum sensitiivty.. if I want that then I use binning) The weakness in my system is the lack of an observatory.. which I'm currently working on. (I'm also over 40.. what you lose in looks you get back in toys, when I was a student I'd only tried star trails on film.. and was very happy just to identify star colours)

I'm sure you know but I'll say it anyway.. if you're thinking more long term and will want a scope of your own in due course.. spend as much as you possibly can on the mount, then make do for the scope and camera... the mount is all.


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## pedro (Feb 3, 2016)

Sith Zombie said:


> Maybe the 6Da? Cheap with a great sensor. I feel the AF of the 5d series would increase the price and is not really needed on what is a pretty specialist tool.



this would be great. count me in!


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## axtstern (Feb 23, 2016)

Any further Information on this Topic ?


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## tomrukh (Aug 27, 2016)

still waiting :/


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## tron (Aug 27, 2016)

tomrukh said:


> still waiting :/


It's CR1 what did you expect? A thread merely to increase posts...


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## BeenThere (Aug 27, 2016)

I was wondering if the FF Canon high ISO/low noise Champ Camera has changed lately. The Digital Picture has a tool where one can qualitatively compare the noise in Canon Cameras:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Noise.aspx?Camera=819&Test=0&ISO=3200&CameraComp=1041&TestComp=0&ISOComp=3200

I was comparing at ISO 3200 and 6400 where most of the interest lies for wide field astrophotography. It appears to my eye that the 6D is still the best with 1DXII very close (maybe equal). One interesting thing is that the 1DXII noise appears to be slightly smoothed relative to that on the 6D. The methodology on the web site states that all in-camera noise removal was turned off, but I am wondering if there is still a bit of Canon noise smoothing going on in the 1DXII samples.

I guess we will soon get to see how the 5Div stacks up against the current champ. I expect it will still fall short due to the smaller pixel pitch.


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## tron (Aug 27, 2016)

BeenThere said:


> I was wondering if the FF Canon high ISO/low noise Champ Camera has changed lately. The Digital Picture has a tool where one can qualitatively compare the noise in Canon Cameras:
> 
> http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Noise.aspx?Camera=819&Test=0&ISO=3200&CameraComp=1041&TestComp=0&ISOComp=3200
> 
> ...


That's interesting so you say that for astrophotography ( I assume wide field = landscape astrophotography otherwise there are devices that counter earth movement and allow us to shoot more seconds so we can lower the iso) a 6D sensor is more or less equal to a 1DxII sensor ? I am interested in this kind of photography. For now I use 5D3 for this.


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## rpt (Aug 28, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> One thing you don't need is a kick-ass 63 point AF system... but a really really good central point would be great.....


+1
Very valid point! So 6Da?


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## niels123 (Aug 28, 2016)

Djaaf said:


> Ha stands for H-Alpha, one of the primary emission band of the Hydrogen.
> It's a deep red that's pretty much invisible to human eyes and so the filters before the sensor tend to cut it out.
> But in the Astro-photo domain, that's the principal band of light since most of the universe is Hydrogen (emmission nebula emits mostly in that band (M42, California, Laguna, etc...) It's not that important for galaxies or stellar cluster which emits light in pretty much every band).
> So conventionnal Canon DSLRs cut out something like 60-70% of your most useful frequency in Astro..
> ...



Would an a model be the same as a modified camera where the low-pass filter has been removed: is there a difference between full-spectrum modification and the a-model in terms of IR-landscape photography? (I use clip-in filters, so I don't want a visibile-light block filter on my sensor).

Thanx!
Niels


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## tron (Aug 28, 2016)

niels123 said:


> Djaaf said:
> 
> 
> > Ha stands for H-Alpha, one of the primary emission band of the Hydrogen.
> ...


a models from Canon were reported as not getting as much Ha sensitivity boost as modified cameras. 
I guess a modified 6D camera is the best value for money... (and possibly just best for now...)


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## solaris (Oct 15, 2016)

Hm - sitting over here in germany I tried to get a sneak preview on the 60Da on photokina exhibition in cologne years ago - surprise, surprise - canon invested only in stupied people running around - no 60Da - no information - nothing. Wasted time at all... :-\

Anyway - since I purchased years ago for my 60D a so called clip-filter from Astronomik I stumbled over this article

http://www.astronomik.com/en/news/astrophotography_with_a_unmodified_canon_6d/

trying to find out if purchasing new 5d IV makes sense or not (by the way: has someone compared a 5D III (USB 2.0) with IV (UDB 3.0) about downloading astro images via USB - and how performs WIFI ???)

Article describes experiance of a NZ astrophotographer finding that 6D has a quite good H-Alpha sensitivity compared to other cameras - since the 60Da has problems with shifted colors / balance a potential astro-camera should be a 6D-based one with selected sensors and a removable IR-filter - replacing it by a sort of clip-on filter so that an amateur can switch quickly between different filters - or place a camara without filter behind a filter wheel. Result would be a 6D able to be used as "normal" DSLR and as astro-camera by removing quickly the filter. Another 60Da piece of crap makes no sense at all...

...if a 7D-based camera makes sense I dont know since 6D is APS-C and 7D is Full. So 7D chips by 99% have same poor H-Alpha sensitivity then other cameras - except 6D. Split-brain benefit: Full frame - many telescopes do not have a large enough focusser (diameter) so that vignetted pics are result - i.e. FF resolution is wasted. 

Frank


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## Don Haines (Oct 15, 2016)

solaris said:


> Hm - sitting over here in germany I tried to get a sneak preview on the 60Da on photokina exhibition in cologne years ago - surprise, surprise - canon invested only in stupied people running around - no 60Da - no information - nothing. Wasted time at all... :-\
> 
> Anyway - since I purchased years ago for my 60D a so called clip-filter from Astronomik I stumbled over this article
> 
> ...


The basic advice given out for years in photography is that if you are going to shoot in low light conditions, go FF. Since astrophotography is the king of low light photography, it would make sense for an "A" camera to be based on the 6D.....


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