# 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?



## cayenne (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm going to be helping do a shoot for a charity which involves a bar crawl here in New Orleans.

I'm using my 5D3....as per another thread I've had going, I may be renting a 50L f/1.2 lens to round out what I have:

70-200L f/288
85mm f/1.8
17-40L f/4

I have the 24-1-5L f/4 kit lens too. I was thinking of taking the first three if I don't get the 50L, which I might, if I did...I might drop the 85mm..maybe? I will need the 70-200 for earlier in the evening when shooting in daylight to balconies in Jackson Square...

Anyway, I'm going to try to get permission to shoot sample footage in the bars over the next week..but can someone give me some good numbers to try to shoot for so as to get good exposed footage, minimize noise?

I'm going for 24fps. Setting shutter speed to 50. I know ISO should be in multiples of 160..does that hold true in HIGH ISO's? What kind of ISO's am I looking for....at what fstops?

Again, this will be in various bars..some better lit than others, but none of them are going to be terribly bright, lots of neon signs, etc. I do want to get that ambiance a bit, but I want to also be able to see my people in these....

Again, I'm going to try to go scout and take notes, but looking for suggestions from others as to what settings worked for them in similar situations to give me a good starting point!!

Thanks in advance,

cayenne


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## AmbientLight (Sep 12, 2013)

My only bar shooting experience is some shots taken in Venice, Italy. For me in such situations focal lengths cannot be short enough, because bars in Venice are usually not very large and for using long focal lengths I found myself being to close.

Of course being able to use wide open apertures is also a good idea, especially if you want to have some people in the shot, not just neon signs or reflecting light in arranged glasses and such. I ended up using a 14mm f2.8 on a 7D, sometimes just setting the camera up on a table or on the bar shooting f8, 1/8s, but that's no good for having people in the shot. You will be more efficient using a 24mm f1.4 and/or 35mm f1.4 on your 5D Mark III. I have also used a 24-105mm zoom during that trip to Venice, which is good for close up shots, if you stumble upon something interesting, but I needed to use flash for this and for me this works better in specialized restaurants than in bars. In the attached sample I used f4 1/60s, but in hindsight I rather should have used f8.

I can recommend bringing the 50mm f1.2, because it renders color pretty beautifully, but focal length may be a problem, being almost a bit too long. If you have some space available, this lens might be useful.


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## sjschall (Sep 12, 2013)

If it were me, I would focus less on correct ISO and shutter speed and more on the story and the framing. What do you want your shots to say? It won't make a big difference at the end if your ISO was a multiple of 160 or not. Don't be afraid to break the rules, you may well have to in order to get the shot. A slower shutter speed will let in a lot more light, and, if the scenes don't have much movement, you'll never be able to tell 1/30th from 1/50th. On the other hand, shooting at 1/60th or 1/100th will accentuate motion, which is a cool look for dancing/sports/etc.

Also, you could bring a light along, which will do wonders. Have fun


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## Jim Saunders (Sep 13, 2013)

If you can take a flash for the sake of the AF assist lamp you might have more luck. A 5D2 and a 16-35 had a hard time getting focus in what was a fairly well-lit bar. The 5D3 might not need it as much but I have no data for comparison.


Jim


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## cayenne (Sep 13, 2013)

Jim Saunders said:


> If you can take a flash for the sake of the AF assist lamp you might have more luck. A 5D2 and a 16-35 had a hard time getting focus in what was a fairly well-lit bar. The 5D3 might not need it as much but I have no data for comparison.
> 
> 
> Jim



Remember, this is *purely for video*....not stills.


Thanks 

C


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 13, 2013)

You should have no issues with your 5D MK III, but at super high ISO settings, there is very little DR, so any lights get blown out if you want to expose dark scenes. I've used ISO 25600 when I had to, but 12800 works well most of the time. 

Movement is the big reason for the super high ISO, people are moving, so you need a fairly fast shutter speed to freeze motion.

I think that the 5D MK III can focus fine with something like a 24-70 f/2.8, I stopped using my fast primes after moving from the MK II to the MK III. They both focused quickly in super low light, and bars are lit well enough that the camera can handle it.


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## AmbientLight (Sep 13, 2013)

For video work I don't see the point in AF discussions. Your preference should be for a focal length range, which works well in bars.

As a zoom I would recommend the 16-35mm f2.8 so that you are wide enough and still have some possibility to change focal lengths, but your 17-40mm should fill this role in a similar form, so there's no need to purchase anything in a hurry. Using your 24-105mm you will have plenty of flexibility towards longer focal lengths.

I wonder: How much would you be willing to swap lenses to get the better color rendering of say a 50mm f1.2?


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## photonius (Sep 13, 2013)

cayenne said:


> I'm going to be helping do a shoot for a charity which involves a bar crawl here in New Orleans.
> 
> I'm using my 5D3....as per another thread I've had going, I may be renting a 50L f/1.2 lens to round out what I have:
> 
> ...



what hasn't been pointed out is that - while a fast lens is good to let light in - the thin DOF of f1.2 is probably not useful for most of your shots unless you want to focus on portraits where little is in focus.


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## dave (Sep 13, 2013)

AmbientLight said:


> For video work I don't see the point in AF discussions. Your preference should be for a focal length range, which works well in bars.
> 
> As a zoom I would recommend the 16-35mm f2.8 so that you are wide enough and still have some possibility to change focal lengths, but your 17-40mm should fill this role in a similar form, so there's no need to purchase anything in a hurry. Using your 24-105mm you will have plenty of flexibility towards longer focal lengths.
> 
> I wonder: How much would you be willing to swap lenses to get the better color rendering of say a 50mm f1.2?



+1

A shorter focal length has the extra benefit of being easier to manage focus with. You could try renting a Zeiss 35mm 1.4 or 21mm f/2.8. In my experience manual focus with Zeiss lenses is a more user friendly experience.

The 16-35mm is also a good choice as suggested above.

If you are going to use a longer focal length and people are going to be involved in the footage then practice, practice, practice in the meantime.


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## alexanderferdinand (Sep 13, 2013)

If possible, take a 35L or 24L.
Are you allowed to flash?
If so, fill in some bounced light from a white wall could be helpful.


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## alexanderferdinand (Sep 13, 2013)

Oops!! Excuse me for the flash!
Didnt notice it is video....


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## agierke (Sep 13, 2013)

no one can accurately tell you what iso and aperture you should shoot at unless they were familiar with each actual location. lighting varies greatly from location to location and will even vary greatly within each location. 

the only answer is shoot at the lowest possible iso at whatever aperture you find effective that will provide good exposure for the chosen shutterspeed. thats it. you got to use your noodle for this. anyone telling you specific isos and apertures is simply taking a stab in the dark (forgive the pun) and if you follow advice like that you probably will not end up with optimal results.

i can tell you this, if you don't have some sort of lighting solution option you are likely to run into scenarios that you just cannot shoot. bars and restaurants have the potential to be brutally dark.


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## cayenne (Sep 13, 2013)

AmbientLight said:


> For video work I don't see the point in AF discussions. Your preference should be for a focal length range, which works well in bars.
> 
> As a zoom I would recommend the 16-35mm f2.8 so that you are wide enough and still have some possibility to change focal lengths, but your 17-40mm should fill this role in a similar form, so there's no need to purchase anything in a hurry. Using your 24-105mm you will have plenty of flexibility towards longer focal lengths.
> 
> I wonder: How much would you be willing to swap lenses to get the better color rendering of say a 50mm f1.2?



Thank you for all the replies so far!!!


I am thinking of trying to rent the 50L f/1.2......I had kinda thought that would be short enough to use, but with all the suggestions of the 24L and 35L, hmm....well, I'm trying to decide.

I do have that 17-40L, but at f/4, I'm wondering if it is fast enough. :-\

Oh well, I'll take some test footage between now and 9/21. I'll try to take some notes, etc.

I recently got the Sekonic 478DR light meter:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BBQ8ICY/ref=oh_emp_details_o05__i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I pulled it out of the box last night, and am reading up on how to use it...I've never used a light meter before, but this one says it helps with settings for HD video so I'm gonna figure how to use it and test shots out using what it tells me. Hoping that will help some.

I'd not thought about going as wide angle as some have suggested, I was hoping to travel as light as possible, since this turns into a pub crawl from the French Quarter all the way to the CBD...quite a distance. I have a sling pack which I was gonna bring camera, 3 lenses or so....batteries/ CF cards...and I was going to carry my monopod with the video head. 

But I do have the Rokinnon 14mm f/2.8. I'd thought it would be too wide of a lens, but with the suggestions of wide angle lenses, and with this one being decently fast, perhaps I should consider bringing this? I could shoot wide with it..and crop in as needed in post I guess.

I've never successfully shot at high ISO's so far....when I've tried in the past, I just could not see anything and it was noisy....I've wondered people showing beautiful nighttime street videos show with the 5D3 how they were doing this.

Anyway, gonna practice this weekend and all next week in advance of the shoot.

Again, thank you all so *VERY *much for the suggestions and advice. Please keep it coming as you think of new things pertinent to my situation here.

cayenne ;D

PS (edit) I just found the Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 was for rent about the same as the Canon 50L:
http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/canon/lenses/normal-range/zeiss-ze-50mm-f1.4-for-canon

Would anyone suggest I might rent the Zeiss over the Canon?

c


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## titokane (Sep 13, 2013)

I did a bar crawl with a 50mm 1.4, 6D (very similar ISO performance to 5D3, maybe a tad better), and a monopod, with no external light source. Generally was close to wide open on aperture, 1/50 on shutter, and ISO wherever it needed to be for good exposure (generally multiples of 160). I didn't even bring my zooms because I needed to be extremely mobile and they were too slow, plus stylistically I was ok with shooting 50mm all night.

The person who said you can ignore the 160 rule is not correct if you want the cleanest looking footage possible, especially at lower ISOs and extremely high ISOs. The difference is massive in low-light scenarios. The best values, in order, are 160 - 320 - 640 - 1250 - 1600 - 2000 (weird, right?) - 2500 - 3200 - 5000. Once you get past these you're in inevitably noisy territory, but on the 6D (and I believe on your 5D3 as well) shooting 5000 will shoot a little cleaner than 100, and much cleaner than 125. 

50mm was naturally too wide in some situations and too long in others, but I would do this exact same setup again in a heartbeat. As somebody else mentioned, a more versatile setup may be adding a LED light and using the zooms, but I thought I'd share my experience with a similar shoot.


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## cayenne (Sep 17, 2013)

titokane said:


> I did a bar crawl with a 50mm 1.4, 6D (very similar ISO performance to 5D3, maybe a tad better), and a monopod, with no external light source. Generally was close to wide open on aperture, 1/50 on shutter, and ISO wherever it needed to be for good exposure (generally multiples of 160). I didn't even bring my zooms because I needed to be extremely mobile and they were too slow, plus stylistically I was ok with shooting 50mm all night.
> 
> The person who said you can ignore the 160 rule is not correct if you want the cleanest looking footage possible, especially at lower ISOs and extremely high ISOs. The difference is massive in low-light scenarios. The best values, in order, are 160 - 320 - 640 - 1250 - 1600 - 2000 (weird, right?) - 2500 - 3200 - 5000. Once you get past these you're in inevitably noisy territory, but on the 6D (and I believe on your 5D3 as well) shooting 5000 will shoot a little cleaner than 100, and much cleaner than 125.
> 
> 50mm was naturally too wide in some situations and too long in others, but I would do this exact same setup again in a heartbeat. As somebody else mentioned, a more versatile setup may be adding a LED light and using the zooms, but I thought I'd share my experience with a similar shoot.



Thank you VERY much for the info and description of your experience with this.

I'm going to pretty much be a one man band on this...and it is a pub crawl after the initial event, so I'm trying to travel as light as I can...sling bag with room for 5D3, and usually I can carry my 70-200 plus two other regular sized lenses...and will carry my manfroto video mono-pod.

I have a rode videomic pro I was gonna try to use, so, that takes away the top of the camera...but am gonna try to get at least one LED video light to hand carry. Dang, if I had help I could at least bring one light stand and set the LED on that...but hey, gotta work with what I have.

Thanks for the suggestions and info....the event is this Sat (9/21)...so, if anyone has any more advice, please drop a line on the thread here.

Again, thanks to everyone!!

cayenne


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## Halfrack (Sep 17, 2013)

Shot with the 24-105 at iso 12800 f/4 1/40th. Go with the kit lens for IS or the 17-40 for a wider view of things - pub crawls can be tight affairs and you can always crop in, just not back up.


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## Dantana (Sep 17, 2013)

Maybe you've already thought of this, but since you now have a meter you could go to a few of the places and take some incident foot-candle readings in various spots of each location. If the bars don't want you running around with a camera for a test shoot, it would at least give you an idea of the kind of light you'll be getting. That way you can go through your notes and see what kind of exposures you would be faced with in a given location.

Of course, all bets are off if the bars change their lighting, but at least you'd have some reference to work with.


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## cayenne (Sep 18, 2013)

Dantana said:


> Maybe you've already thought of this, but since you now have a meter you could go to a few of the places and take some incident foot-candle readings in various spots of each location. If the bars don't want you running around with a camera for a test shoot, it would at least give you an idea of the kind of light you'll be getting. That way you can go through your notes and see what kind of exposures you would be faced with in a given location.
> 
> Of course, all bets are off if the bars change their lighting, but at least you'd have some reference to work with.



I actually ran down to the Quarter last night and shot in most of the venues for test footage...trying to keep notes on what I shot (although I was trying so much...my notes aren't that good [email protected])...

Anyway, I'll bring the footage in tonight and see what it looks like.

I got some with the Rokinon 14mm f/2.8, the canon 85mm f/1.8, the 17-40 f/4...not much with the 25-105 f/4.

I tried in various ISOs....some bars looked ok at 6400, but did others at 10K and 12K....

I switched between styles, mostly the Marvels style, but some with factory Neutral and Standard.

In one bar, a very dark area with lots of red...I tried at 12K ISO...and played around with shutter speed of 30 just to see if it would look too "video-y"....

I'll have to see what it looks like tonight when I get home. I want to run it through Davinci Resolve Lite...and see what I can come up with.

I'm not sure what to set the WB for in most bars....it was a mix of *Tungsten *in most of them but also with *Neon*...so, any _suggestions for setting White Balance_?

OH...I also just ordered from LensRental.com....and have the Canon 50L f/1.2 on its way to arrive on Friday. 
I shoot on Sat.

It seems that many places, I could get by on 2.8 or 1.8....and get some good looking footage, but I won't really know till I play with color correction on last night's footage and see how much noise I get.

Thanks for all the advice...please, keep it coming!!

cayenne


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 18, 2013)

cayenne said:


> I'm going to be helping do a shoot for a charity which involves a bar crawl here in New Orleans.
> 
> I'm using my 5D3....as per another thread I've had going, I may be renting a 50L f/1.2 lens to round out what I have:
> 
> ...



It only holds for internally processed stuff not for raw since whatever you gain in shadows you lose in highlights so those 160 ISOs and such are no different than just exposing the main ones 1/3 stop different. But with internally processed stuff it cooks a lot in and they never take full advantage of highlights anyway so for that they can be better.

Above ISO1600 or ISO3200, the former for all but a very few of the newest bodies, that rule doesn't even hold even for internally processed stuff though as everythng is just a straight push, for RAWs, at least for stills, underxposing ISO3200, although hard to work with in the field, can even do a touch better at times since you can save a bit more highlights.

Anyway a wild guess for the bar might be ISO1600, f/2, it really depends though since bars lighting varies a lot and it depends if you are shooting into a dark corner or onto lit bottles or someone at a bright spot at the counter, etc. it could vary two stops with ease.


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## cayenne (Sep 18, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to be helping do a shoot for a charity which involves a bar crawl here in New Orleans.
> ...



I don't have the Magic Lantern installed yet for RAW video....so, using the regular Canon HD video here, and thinking of trying to shoot it all with Marvels cinestyle...and doing color grading in Davinci Resolve.

I couldn't see much at 1600 ISO even at f/2...using shutter speed 50 (due to shooting 24fps).

cayenne


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## sjschall (Sep 18, 2013)

> any suggestions for setting White Balance?



I like to keep it in the Kelvin setting when shooting video. Start at Tungsten (3200) and roll it warmer or cooler to get the look you want. That, or use something white and set it in-camera.


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## cayenne (Sep 18, 2013)

sjschall said:


> > any suggestions for setting White Balance?
> 
> 
> 
> I like to keep it in the Kelvin setting when shooting video. Start at Tungsten (3200) and roll it warmer or cooler to get the look you want. That, or use something white and set it in-camera.



D'oh.....good idea!!

I would just have to video something at the beginning of filming at each venue...and use that to set WB for each in post.

I also just remembered, that I have one of those expo-discs I could shoot a still at each venue and use that still to set custom WB and that way, I'd not have to bother with WB setting of each set of shots in post for the most part.

Thanks!! Man, I'm trying to remember so much to try to get this right on my first ever shoot for someone else. I'm not getting paid and it IS for charity, but this could be good advertisement for me if I do good, and again...it is for a good cause too!!

Thanks!!

C


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## Dantana (Sep 19, 2013)

I'm curious if footage shot with such different ISO values will cut together well in post. I know this is doc style and not narrative, so you'll get a lot more leeway with the viewer, but I'm still curious.


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## helpful (Sep 19, 2013)

Nailed both aperture and ISO on my first guess... f/4 and 12,800.

Of course, there's just my word for that fact, but I felt pretty good so I posted this worthless post anyway. Fun challenge!


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## RGF (Sep 19, 2013)

sjschall said:


> If it were me, I would focus less on correct ISO and shutter speed and more on the story and the framing. What do you want your shots to say? It won't make a big difference at the end if your ISO was a multiple of 160 or not. Don't be afraid to break the rules, you may well have to in order to get the shot. A slower shutter speed will let in a lot more light, and, if the scenes don't have much movement, you'll never be able to tell 1/30th from 1/50th. On the other hand, shooting at 1/60th or 1/100th will accentuate motion, which is a cool look for dancing/sports/etc.
> 
> Also, you could bring a light along, which will do wonders. Have fun



Agree. Technical correct could look sterile. Be creative, if the story is strong, technical flaws will not be noticed (as much).


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## AJ (Sep 19, 2013)

helpful said:


> Nailed both aperture and ISO on my first guess... f/4 and 12,800.
> 
> Of course, there's just my word for that fact, but I felt pretty good so I posted this worthless post anyway. Fun challenge!


Those settings sound about right to me. 

To the OP: be careful with the 50/1.2 Narrow DOF can be nice for video with actors who move carefully with pre-planned motion. But in the chaos of a pub crawl, you can end up with nothing but blur, giving your viewers a headache. I'd be on the safe side - stop down.


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## cayenne (Sep 19, 2013)

AJ said:


> helpful said:
> 
> 
> > Nailed both aperture and ISO on my first guess... f/4 and 12,800.
> ...



I will. But I figure at least I'll have it there if I want to use it.

Most of what I found that was really nice and bright was using f/2.8....so, guessing 2.8 and below will help me out of the most dark of the places we'll be hitting.

Tonight, Ihave to go through that footage and see what it looks like.

I shot some of it with Marvels Cine style, some with Canon Neutral, and some with Canon Standard.

I'm still not an expert with color correction, although I'm getting better....I'm needing to decide if I want to risk it with shooting it all in a very "*flat*" style and correcting it all in post, or taking what I can get out of the camera.

i'm leaning towards flat style...since if I mess up in the confusion, forget to set a good custom WB...I'll have slightly more leeway in POST to correct any problems that I'm sure I'll run into with all that will be going on.

Not to mention, it now looks like a very high chance of rain storms in the area, so that's one more thing I"ll have to worry about. I guess I'll wrap my camera bag in a large trash bag to protect from rain while walking between venues, and carry an umbrella in addition to my sling bag (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007234626/ref=oh_details_o09_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) and monopod.

Ugh...

This is going to prove to be very interesting....

cayenne


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