# OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do you have to sell it?



## xps (Dec 18, 2015)

Found at : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/12

Silver award. Got just 83%.


Maybe the rumored 5DS(R) update will bring it up to 90% as its competitors.


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## wsmith96 (Dec 18, 2015)

*Re: OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do I have to sell it?*

Not a bad idea to sell it. I'd go dirt cheap too to get rid of it before someone sees you with it. What would people say if they saw a silver award camera in your kit.... :


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## xps (Dec 18, 2015)

*Re: OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do I have to sell it?*



wsmith96 said:


> Not a bad idea to sell it. I'd go dirt cheap too to get rid of it before someone sees you with it. What would people say if they saw a silver award camera in your kit.... :



;D

Honestly, I decided to buy an 5D series body in spring, as I spent a lot of money (thanks to all of the hints and tips from CR users) for an 600 and 7DII and a lot of other gear to shoot BIF.
But in my personal opinion, the 5DSR feels more than 83%, maybe around 85-87%. But not more, as the critizised point are true. One of my children has bought one and feels happy with it. Not only for studiophotography and landscape. Son, sometimes the person behind the cam seems to be important too 8)


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## Viggo (Dec 18, 2015)

*Re: OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do I have to sell it?*

I read most of the conclusion on the different parts, and I must say I agree with it all. I think DPreview did a fair and good review this time, and that's not always the case. The silver or gold or whatever I don't care about, but the reason behind the scores is pretty much what I think also.

One of the thing that surprised me a bit is the AF tracking. My friend bought a7rII and he said for tracking at shallow dof with the kids the accuracy is much better with the on sensor phase AF than his 5d3 for example.

I wonder what the 5d4 and 1dx2 will bring.


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## AlanF (Dec 18, 2015)

*Re: OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do I have to sell it?*

It is a very interesting and deep review with much food for thought. There are several asides in it that are useful, such as the general problem of Nikon's VR interacting with the mirror slap to degrade IQ. The 5DS/R has great pluses, but could be even better. Let's see what Canon comes up with next year.


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## Eldar (Dec 18, 2015)

*Re: OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do I have to sell it?*

My negative remarks about this camera are not many. Metering locked to AF-point is the most important short coming (I really don´t understand why they did not implement that). Ergonomics are market leading, even though the extra thumb lever we got on the 7DII would have been nice. Yes, I can agree that there are some odd limitations to the programability of the various buttons, but I have learned to live happily with them.

So if I should rate it for my use, which includes portraits, landscape, wildlife, birds and events, with or without a tripod, I would remove video from the equation, since it has no interest, I would increase the ergonomics evaluation and I´d rate it fairly good value for money. With that, the rating would be a lot more than 83%.

I had the pleasure of trying a Sony A7RII on a safari trip this fall (I actually had it on preorder, but cancelled when I realised how good the 5DSR was). Balance with larger lenses is poor. The EVF on moving targets is poor. Ergonomics is close to horrible and access to key functionality is cumbersome (my lack of experience with it must take some blame here, but the owner agreed to most of my critique) and the battery draining is a constant worry. The guy who owned it had his pockets full of batteries and was running for the charger every time we got to camp. it does have two functions of interest to me though. In body stabilisation and easier control with manual focus would make it a good team mate for my Zeiss glass.


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## Rupp1 (Dec 18, 2015)

*Re: OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do I have to sell it?*

"Wow" speaking of damning with faint praise. Even when DPreview, was saying some nice things I'm not sure that they could have been any more condescending. Wondering whether Canon intentionally hobbles cameras to differentiate models is interesting, but some itty-bitty evidence would be nice. DPreview gets on Canon's case for knowing best what to put in their cameras, which would go down better if the reviewer didn't believe that his/her opinion was better, obviously better. That was the most grudging compliment I think I've ever read. To top it off, they had to take a few swings at the 5DIII's shutter sound (what's with that-a couple of years ago the 5DIII was great and the 1DX was supposed to be horrible), but the Sony a7r line gets a pass? I still find it interesting that hey have never reviewed the 1DX.



Eldar said:


> I had the pleasure of trying a Sony A7RII on a safari trip this fall (I actually had it on preorder, but cancelled when I realised how good the 5DSR was). Balance with larger lenses is poor. The EVF on moving targets is poor. Ergonomics is close to horrible and access to key functionality is cumbersome (my lack of experience with it must take some blame here, but the owner agreed to most of my critique) and the battery draining is a constant worry.



Have to go... but wanted to say that the above comments on the a7RII are fair. It isn't a sports or wildlife camera, and the controls are off, and the system isn't anywhere near as good or complete as Canon's. Still, the a7R2 is a great camera which you can carry in a small satchel with three lenses (a couple of which are very good-if overpriced). Using Canon lenses makes little sense, but unlike DPreview, I can be fair and say that the image quality of the a7R2 can be wonderful. I have less nice things to say about the a7II, except that it is cheaper but useless.


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## erjlphoto (Dec 18, 2015)

Haters gotta hate. Twice I have purchased DP highly recommended dslr's only to be dissapointed. One was the infamous Nikon D600, the other was a Pentax. At the time I switched to Canon, they rated the Canon 6D lower than the D600, but for me the 6D is a far better camera. Now have two and three L lenses.....shrew DP and their bent opinions.


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## mackguyver (Dec 18, 2015)

I think the funniest part was reading the cons - here are the things that I think most people actually care about:

Conclusion - Cons

Raw dynamic range limited compared to peers
Base ISO images can be noisier than the best of the competition
Low light performance limited compared to peers
ISO cap of 12,800 (6400 for Auto ISO) feels arbitrary and limiting
JPEGs not as sharp or detailed as some competitors
AF subject tracking lags most peers
Mirror and shutter vibrations require workarounds at certain shutter speeds and focal lengths
No spot-metering linked to AF point
Limited video features: no zebra, 1080/60p, flat gamma profile, or peaking options
Slow AF in Live View and video

Of course the DR has to be qualified as it's only at the base ISO, and the low light doesn't matter given that it's meant to be a studio-type body. Finally, the Live View speed isn't a deal-breaker as it's not that slow and like the rest of the items, it's a nice to have.


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## Larsskv (Dec 18, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> I think the funniest part was reading the cons - here are the things that I think most people actually care about:
> 
> Conclusion - Cons
> 
> ...




I really don´t care about DPR anymore. They do their best, and are for the most part sincere enough in their opinions. The thing is though, that they seem to rate innovation way more than user friendliness. They are reviewers, and accordingly they get excited when getting new things in their hands. When actually using a camera, I for one, care a whole lot more about ergonomics, handling and controls, than whether the tech is new or not. This is where I disagree with their ratings the most. The Sony´s get away way too easy with their shortcomings - lagging, poor menus, poorer handling and ergonomics -all which is very annoying when using a camera. Canon on the other hand, does not get the credit they deserve, for providing the most evolved, tried out, photographer-friendly gear, or the best lens line up. 

And those cons - "AF subject tracking lags most peers" - yeah, right. I haven´t read the review, but I suspect they refer to face-tracking in auto mode, and fail to point that out. It´s hard for me to see how the AI servo tracking on my 5Ds could be any better, as it´s pretty much perfect as it is.


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## MrToes (Dec 18, 2015)

*Every camera has it's short fall. You just have to learn how to work around them!!!*


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## jaayres20 (Dec 18, 2015)

As soon as I saw them use a wide angle lens to take a close up portrait, I realized they don't really consider the important aspects of what makes an image (particularly a portrait) good. Instead they are zoomed into a patch of shadow noise that nobody will ever see. What sticks out of me is not the DR, it is a distorted face of an otherwise beautiful model because they stuck a wide angel lens up her nose to take the picture.


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> I think the funniest part was reading the cons - here are the things that I think most people actually care about:
> 
> Conclusion - Cons
> 
> ...




Speak for yourself, sir. No spot metering at any AF point -- though expected (they save that for the 1D-level) -- is still a con in my book when the other guys slap it on their Rebel equivalent. 

When we talk about there's more to a camera than the 'powertrain' specs: sensor performance, AF system, FPS, etc., usually that's a Canon-positive finding: handling, usability, build quality, menus, etc. usually are very positive for Canon. To me, not being able to spot meter at any AF point is a decided negative for the entire 5D brand. It's 2015, a professional rig like that should have that option.

Also, how did the AF let the reviewers down? Isn't it highly similar to the 1DX AF system? I know the 5DS is not meant for sports given its framerate, but shouldn't it run circles around the A7 camp for servo AF needs? Camera Store TV's review said this was one of the clear advantages the 5DS (and SLRs in general) have over the A7R II. (Or were they referring to the D810/D750 as the competition here?)

- A


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## jaayres20 (Dec 18, 2015)

This is a quote form their review "I spend countless hours fiddling with Nikon and Sony Raw colors to get the skintones I desire". Well I am sure they are relieved to have the extra DR to make up for those countless hours of editing to get the skin tones right. At the end they mention that the 5D3 has better noise at high ISO. That is flat out wrong. I have shot weddings for years and have spent a considerable amount of time with the 5D3 and the 5DSr in low light. The 5DSr is a little better. Not as good as the 1DX, but it is better than the 5D3.


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2015)

jaayres20 said:


> As soon as I saw them use a wide angle lens to take a close up portrait, I realized they don't really consider the important aspects of what makes an image (particularly a portrait) good. Instead they are zoomed into a patch of shadow noise that nobody will ever see. What sticks out of me is not the DR, it is a distorted face of an otherwise beautiful model because they stuck a wide angel lens up her nose to take the picture.



I'm of two minds here:


I cannot stand reviews that state a sensor is definitively better because you can push the shadows 4-5 stops. 


That said... we've all been in situations where the lighting / time of day could not be controlled, the background/foreground contrast was simply overpowering, etc. _and we still had to take the shot._ In those circumstances, some additional latitude to brighten the foreground and tame the sky would be appreciated.


I did laugh out loud when they showed that sunset portrait and then tried to draw our eyes to a tiny little spot in the background. That's a very DPR thing to do.

- A


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## ritholtz (Dec 18, 2015)

jaayres20 said:


> As soon as I saw them use a wide angle lens to take a close up portrait, I realized they don't really consider the important aspects of what makes an image (particularly a portrait) good. Instead they are zoomed into a patch of shadow noise that nobody will ever see. What sticks out of me is not the DR, it is a distorted face of an otherwise beautiful model because they stuck a wide angel lens up her nose to take the picture.


Their sample pics are always disappointing. Even the pics posted by users, their website has some issues. I always like sample pics posted on fredmirinda and poton.


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2015)

jaayres20 said:


> At the end they mention that the 5D3 has better noise at high ISO. That is flat out wrong. I have shot weddings for years and have spent a considerable amount of time with the 5D3 and the 5DSr in low light. The 5DSr is a little better. Not as good as the 1DX, but it is better than the 5D3.



Context matters with noise. I thought noise was slightly better for the 5D3 _at a pixel level..._ 

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Noise.aspx?Camera=792&Test=0&ISO=12800&CameraComp=979&TestComp=0&ISOComp=12800

but if you downsample your 5DS/R shots down to 22 MP, they are effectively the same:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Noise.aspx?Camera=792&Test=0&ISO=12800&CameraComp=979&TestComp=1&ISOComp=12800

(TDP also has all sorts of options in the pull down flagged 'Standard' if you want to get into the weeds on processing options.)

Carnathan's summary covers this pretty well:
_
"When compared at native resolutions, 5Ds images are noisier than 5D III images. The differences, especially at higher ISO settings, are less than 1 stop. Down-sized to 5D III pixel dimension (using DPP, see "Standard Down-Sized to 5D III" in noise tool), 5Ds noise levels are essentially equal to full frame 5D III noise levels and even slightly better at the highest ISO settings. So, while Canon is not promoting this camera for its low light capabilities, I see it as one of the best options available with output size being comparable."_

- A


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## wsmith96 (Dec 18, 2015)

*Re: OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do I have to sell it?*



xps said:


> wsmith96 said:
> 
> 
> > Not a bad idea to sell it. I'd go dirt cheap too to get rid of it before someone sees you with it. What would people say if they saw a silver award camera in your kit.... :
> ...



Thanks for understanding that my sarcasm was directed at the review and not directed at you personally. The fact is that a review is based upon someone's opinion of the particular product. Regarding the pro's and con's, it's up to the buyer to determine what's best for them and if they will allow a product review to influence their decision. Reviews in general are a good thing and the different views on a product can be quite revealing for your own personal goals. 

But, I wouldn't sell it


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## RGF (Dec 18, 2015)

xps said:


> Found at : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/12
> 
> Silver award. Got just 83%.
> 
> ...



Weakest scores are movie mode - ZERO value to me and value. Price is a bit high but coming down.

without these perhaps the score would have risen to 86% ?


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2015)

RGF said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > Found at : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/12
> ...



_"220, 221, whatever it takes."_ -- Mr. Mom

Forget numbers. I ask a simpler question: _Is it worth it to upgrade from a 5D3?_

Since I live in higher ISO (1600-6400), the answer is no -- I'd probably be downsizing a lot to walk the noise back -- so I wouldn't be getting the 50 MP I paid for and I'd be $3500-4000 poorer. Pass. 

Were I a studio/landscape photog, where I could live in lower ISO, I'd get this in a heartbeat.

- A


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## Jopa (Dec 18, 2015)

xps said:


> Found at : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/12
> 
> Silver award. Got just 83%.
> 
> ...


LOL who give a [email protected] about "dpreview"?  Why their or somebody else's numbers matter? "83" based on some random-guy-you-don't-know opinion? The 5dsr is an AMAZING camera, one of a kind. Just buy it and try yourself and give it your own score.
As a Sony fanboy I completely ignored the 5dsr release and of course I got the A7r2. Sony promised good AF with the Canon glass since they don't make anything decent except of the 55 f/1.8 and 35 f/2.8. Better if they didn't mention the AF at all in their marketing materials, because I really had high hopes for it, and of course my disappointment was also quite high!  The 5dsr has opened my eyes, I never thought the AF could be that good. The sensor is just unbelievable, and paired with some nice Canon glass it delivers outstanding results.
The only downside of the 5dsr compared to the a7r2... you'll be surprised - it's the lens selection again. With Sony you won't spend much on the lenses because there is nothing to buy, seems like Sony cares about your wallet!  With Canon I spent $13k last month on the glass... I hate Canon!!!!!!!! Just kidding LOL.


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2015)

dilbert said:


> How often do people here crow about the importance of AF?
> So clearly if AF isn't that good, it is something to mention and mark the 5DS down on.



Agree -- if it doesn't perform, report it. I've only seen one head to head between the 5DS and A7R II in servo/tracking AF, and the Canon clearly was superior, as we should expect it to be. Lenses and framerate aren't the only reasons why every sideline has 1DX rigs all over the place -- the AF is top-drawer.

The only shortcoming of a 5DS/R in sports should be throughput -- the framerate and buffer weren't made for leaning on the shutter. But it shouldn't _miss_ any more than my phenomenal 5D3 AF.

- A


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## bdunbar79 (Dec 18, 2015)

dilbert said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > I think the funniest part was reading the cons - here are the things that I think most people actually care about:
> ...



The assessment of AF in this review is total BS and flat out WRONG. "AF subject tracking lags most peers?" No it doesn't. It tracks just as well or even slightly better than the 1Dx. A7R II still sucks compared with regards to AF and I can only draw the conclusion that those doing the review don't actually own or use the 5Ds, because if they did they wouldn't be saying such foolishness. This is why I don't pay attention to this crap anymore.


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> The assessment of AF in this review is total BS and flat out WRONG. "AF subject tracking lags most peers?" No it doesn't. It tracks just as well or even slightly better than the 1Dx. A7R II still sucks compared with regards to AF and I can only draw the conclusion that those doing the review don't actually own or use the 5Ds, because if they did they wouldn't be saying such foolishness. This is why I don't pay attention to this crap anymore.



+1. Reviews of AF systems (body + lens) need to consider:


*Consistency* - Grab a properly calibrated wide aperture lens, set it wide open, reset it's focus and nail a constant target a bunch of times. Only* Bryan Carnathan at TDP seems to do this, but it's only when he sees/fears something is off. (...in third party lenses only [cough] )
*Speed* - Lens Tip* clocks AF from nearest to infinity, which is better than nothing.
*Servo/tracking* - I've never seen a good head to head hit rate sort of test, but I'm sure the sports/wildlife/bif folks have a reference or two.
*Comprehensive number / spread of points* - this is where mirrorless can make claims: they fill far more of the field and they have comically high AF point numbers. So it looks great on paper but it may not actually perform.
[AF obsessives, add your additional metrics here]

* There are random folks doing this as well, but they tend to be one-off exercises you see when something is clearly deficient (i.e. the original EOS-M focusing speed, the 50 Art AF inconsistency, etc)

This is one of the least tested metrics of a system as (a) requiring a consistent lens can confound cross-platform comparison and (b) hit rate comparisons take a fair amount of time to do. But I'd love to see the major review sites consider this in more detail. They obsess about image/video quality in the smallest detail, why not study the AF systems just a bit more?

As a non-action shooter migrating from crop to FF in 2012, I only had the option of a 5D2 / 5D3 at the time. Hearing how iffy the 5D2 could be AF-wise in not sports but 'hurried shooting' had me go overkill to the 5D3 system and it has never let me down other than a poor test rental of a 35 Art (where I believe the lens was the culprit).

- A


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## Jopa (Dec 18, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> The assessment of AF in this review is total BS and flat out WRONG. "AF subject tracking lags most peers?" No it doesn't. It tracks just as well or even slightly better than the 1Dx. A7R II still sucks compared with regards to AF and I can only draw the conclusion that those doing the review don't actually own or use the 5Ds, because if they did they wouldn't be saying such foolishness. This is why I don't pay attention to this crap anymore.


 +1
The AF statement is laughable indeed. I'm wondering who's writing those reviews? It's like you ask a butcher to review a cell phone. His first note would be: while the phone is not very tender, I still can cut it with my biggest knife.


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## Jopa (Dec 18, 2015)

Raw dynamic range limited compared to peers
 _True, but would you really pull EV over 2 stops?_
Base ISO images can be noisier than the best of the competition
_Subjective BS._
Low light performance limited compared to peers
_The camera has a 50Mpx sensor with tiny photo sites. The idea is to get high resolution, not high ISO. It's the same as a Corvette driver would complain they can't haul a 5 ton trailer. _
ISO cap of 12,800 (6400 for Auto ISO) feels arbitrary and limiting
_I never saw a usable (by my standards of course) ISO 6400 picture taken by any modern FF camera._
JPEGs not as sharp or detailed as some competitors
_Really? Would you buy a $3000+ camera to shoot JPEGs? Then why complain about DR? _
AF subject tracking lags most peers
_Plain BS. The best BS of 2015, 99%, Platinum DPR BS Award._
Mirror and shutter vibrations require workarounds at certain shutter speeds and focal lengths
_And Canon provides those workarounds._
No spot-metering linked to AF point
_For real this time. It would be so nice to have it, and I believe it's just a matter of upgrading the firmware. But doubt Canon will do it since they need to sell 1DX _
Limited video features: no zebra, 1080/60p, flat gamma profile, or peaking options
_It's not a video camera, Canon clearly states that. There is no point of reviewing video, it's like I would complain my car doesn't fly. Well, it's not a helicopter... Buy a C300 if you need video. It's always better to have a specialized high end equipment than an "all-in-one" device. My fridge has a display, but I don't expect it to show 4k movies._
Slow AF in Live View and video
_It's a CDAF - what would you expect?_


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 18, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > How often do people here crow about the importance of AF?
> ...



DPR can have a strong influence on the weak-minded. 8)


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## LDS (Dec 18, 2015)

*Re: OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do I have to sell it?*



wsmith96 said:


> The fact is that a review is based upon someone's opinion of the particular product. Regarding the pro's and con's, it's up to the buyer to determine what's best for them and if they will allow a product review to influence their decision. Reviews in general are a good thing and the different views on a product can be quite revealing for your own personal goals.



A good reviewer should be able to minimize his or her bias, and above all, should review a product and understand if it fulfill the aims for its target market. DSLR cameras are no longer a "one size fits all" product - we see more and more models specialized for a given market, although they can also work in others. You can't review a 14" lightweight laptop in the same way you review a big heavy server. Both are computers, but very different designs for different tasks and workloads. You have to understand it and tell your readers if they fulfill the needs they've been designed for. I would really don't care if a server has not a stellar video card, for example, nor if laptop memory can't be replaced without turning off the PC.

5Ds and 5DsR for example are not designed to be cinema or sports cameras, and people buying them have other needs. How do well they cover those needs? That is what I'd expect from a good review.


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2015)

*Re: OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do I have to sell it?*



LDS said:


> 5Ds and 5DsR for example are not designed to be cinema or sports cameras, and people buying them have other needs. How do well they cover those needs? That is what I'd expect from a good review.



Agree, but they have a format and are sticking to it. Some photogs want an all-around camera for a thousand different needs. (Those folks probably should have bought a 5D3, but that's besides the point.)

If you are a score person, I think it depends heavily on what you shoot, but riffing on a comparative-based scoring, one might say:

For landscapes: Highest _detail_ for sure, but the DR is a step behind the A7R II or D810.

For portraiture: Awesome detail and color. Best there is short of Medium Format?

For high ISO work: As good as a 5D3 if you downsample. Not as good as some A7 rigs, but it's still formidable.

For reportage, events, etc: the AF is on par (or slightly better?) than the 1DX and 5D3. You could do no better unless you really need AF points tucked in the corners, in which case you need mirrorless / Liveview to do that.

For sports: go get a different camera, silly. The 5DS/R will work, but there are far better options for the same (or less) money.

[For video: I couldn't tell you, I only shoot stills.]

You could go on. It's a fine, fine camera. Whether it's an 87 or a 36 or a Yahtzee is entirely dependent on your budget, needs, etc.

- A


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## d (Dec 18, 2015)

Nothing surprising in DPR's conclusion/ratings etc. regarding Canon's 50MP bodies; you only need to look at their accompanying sample photos to see they're as much gear-heads as they are photographers.

d.


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2015)

d said:


> Nothing surprising in DPR's conclusion/ratings etc. regarding Canon's 50MP bodies; you only need to look at their accompanying sample photos to see they're as much gear-heads as they are photographers.
> 
> d.



You don't need to be world class photographer to make a point about where a camera lets you down. The question is would a world class photographer _care_ about those shortcomings or would they just roll their eyes and say "I would never have taken that shot like that", "I'd have waited for better natural light", etc.

That's why we need Bryan Carnathan, Dustin Abbott, _this forum's owners of multiple systems_, etc. to put these cameras through their paces and compare them to other rigs we know / use today. 

- A


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## AlanF (Dec 18, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Come on Neuro, you have read enough reviewers reports on your submitted papers to take these in your stride. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VRBWLpYCPY


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## tomscott (Dec 18, 2015)

The difference in ISO is pretty minimal in my eyes. The big difference that eh 5DSR and 5DS have is lack of colour noise the 5DMKIII is infuriating. The new sensor tech is much improved in normal shooting. 

The cap I have for my 5DMKIII is 6400 but try to stick to 4000. This is usually in low light events or wedding shooting, from what I have seen it is almost equal with twice the resolution I don't think theres much need to reduce he resolution unless you looking at it constantly at 100%.

It is an excellent camera and imo anyone in the market should buy one over the 5DMKIII.

Its proven itself not only as a great landscape and studio camera but great for wildlife. The only thing its not really geared up to is everyday shooting as I wouldn't want the size of files but you can always bring the resolution down... 

No downside really except speed.


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## xps (Dec 18, 2015)

Jopa said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > Found at : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/12
> ...



Yes, my family member owns just one or two sony lenses. the other glass are mostly from Zeiss and Canon. The new Batis are WOW. She uses the 85mm Batis for portraits and human photography. And the 25mm batis for landscape. Great lenses. Most times she carries a hand full of batteries with her. :-X But when she returned from north europe two weeks ago, she was dissatisfied. Her problem was, that the warmth of the cam, created moisture on the cam and on the back-lens of the Batis. Now she sent it to Zeiss and the cam to Sony. 
My son in law loves you, as you are an Sony-fanboy ;D ;D He works for this company for nearly three decades and loves their innovations.


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## Jopa (Dec 18, 2015)

xps said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > xps said:
> ...



Sony cams have some problems with weather sealing IMHO. It was acceptable for the A7r for its price, but for the $3200 A7r2 I think it could be better.

I was thinking about getting the Batis 85 as well, but it was too late - I had to pre-order the lens right after its announcement, now they are sold out everywhere. I already have the Otus 85, and while it's a great lens - sometimes I'm getting tired of MF. Got the Canon 85 f/1.2L II instead of the Batis - very happy! I can use it on both the 5dsr and the a7r2, and if I sell the A7r2 (most likely) - I won't need to sell the lens. The only problem - the AF (again) on the Sony, but it works quite well on the Canon. Not sure if it's true, the Batis is a Tamron's creature: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2015-05-27.


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## xps (Dec 18, 2015)

Jopa said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > Jopa said:
> ...


Interesting. Tamron? Well, I will ask an friend of mine. His son works for Zeiss. Maybe he knows something about it.
Yes, its true, the 7RII was hard to buy. She fetched it in the US, and the Batis was preordered, as she got an tip to do this. But they are visibly worth buying. (Or she knows how to use an camera)


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 18, 2015)

AlanF said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > DPR can have a strong influence on the weak-minded. 8)
> ...



Lol! ;D

True, but why am I smiling? Because I am not left-handed weak-minded!


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## Rupp1 (Dec 18, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> I know the 5DS is not meant for sports given its framerate, but shouldn't it run circles around the A7 camp for servo AF needs? Camera Store TV's review said this was one of the clear advantages the 5DS (and SLRs in general) have over the A7R II. (Or were they referring to the D810/D750 as the competition here?)
> 
> - A



While the a7R II is better at auto focus that the other a7 cameras, including the a7II, I own it and a 5DS-r. The a7RII is the first of the a7 series that I actually enjoy, and using the eye recognition technology can focus fine for social people shots. It's light and less noticeable on the street. But IMHO, very fast one-shot focus and AF servo on the a7R2 are not as fast, or as easy as the 5DS-r. To be fair, with the huge sensors, accuracy trumps speed on both cameras. 

I also forgot to mention, in my earlier comment, that I think the DPreview reviews frequently put far too much emphasis on video. I don't care about video, if I do, I'll get a video camera. For social media, or a family memory, the video in my little Fuji x100s is good enough for me. Canon is overkill for my needs. Sony does 4K, OK, if it matters to you.


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## Jesse (Dec 18, 2015)

Feel free to checkout how much my work improved when I switched from a 5D3 to a 5Ds 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jesseherzog


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## 9VIII (Dec 18, 2015)

At least they're still honest about the cons of the A7RII:




> -No direct AF point control
> -Lock-on AF still remains unpredictable and often unreliable
> -Camera focuses stopped down in AF-C, often crippling AF at small apertures or in low light
> -Eye-AF and Lock-on AF not available with 3rd party lenses, nor in video
> ...



Compared to the 5DS:


> -Raw dynamic range limited compared to peers
> -Base ISO images can be noisier than the best of the competition
> -Low light performance limited compared to peers
> -ISO cap of 12,800 (6400 for Auto ISO) feels arbitrary and limiting
> ...



One of these products is obviously much more mature than the other.


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2015)

9VIII said:


> At least they're still honest about the cons of the A7RII:



Agree. 

In the end, 5DS/R vs. A7R II is really a referendum on what you value in a camera. If all you care about is IQ, I imagine you either already own an A7R II or are contemplating it.

But most of us want other stuff. You know: solid build quality, _lenses_, a hammerlock reliable AF system, great service, excellent ergonomics/handling, and menus that don't make you want to kill someone with a hammer.

Sooner or later, though, Sony will eventually get to the other stuff and their value proposition will improve to the point where more folks will consider them.

- A


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## Rupp1 (Dec 18, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Sooner or later, though, Sony will eventually get to the other stuff and their value proposition will improve to the point where more folks will consider them.
> 
> - A



That would be great, but I'll believe it when I see it. Sony has a long history of introducing brilliant products but then failing to support them. Couple this with their market. The lower end is being challenged by people with cell phones. The upper end is still dominated by long time Canon and Nikon users with huge investments in gear and glass. Sony will need a much larger user base to make developing system gear (although their lenses are coming along), and providing service which is as good as normal Canon, let alone CPS. Admission: I could be totally wrong about the size or composition of the camera market. I also think we are in the middle of a paradigm shift (love that expression), which could change all cameras as we know them (which could also support a theory that knowing this, Canon will try to milk existing customers for every dime they can before their cameras are obsolete).


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## jeffa4444 (Dec 18, 2015)

In truth every camera has shortcomings but in truth also we have differences of opinion of what they may be. 
I bought the 5DS knowing I would definately be keeping my 6D, I wanted the extra resolution and that was my primary reason for purchase along with the knowledge Canon had taken measures to mitigate vibration. Im less likely to use focus tracking and a host of other features the camera offers I dont need them for Landscape or Film Noir studio shots with a couple of flashes with flash benders etc. 
The 5DS images have given me the ability if needed to crop more severely and shooting at ISO 100-200 mainly Im not concerned about the cap on high end ISO, I would be with the 6D. 

My dislike is purely the lack of wi-fi this seems bizare in 2015 the iPad & iPhone have become great tools to remotely fire in liveview the camera and preview images in more detail yet the reviewer never mentions this.


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## Larsskv (Dec 18, 2015)

9VIII said:


> At least they're still honest about the cons of the A7RII:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The question is, how the h*** are they able to rate the A7RII higher than the 5DS, with those con lists. The A7RII shortcomings are way, way more negative to me than those mentioned for the 5DS (that arent complete BS - AF performance and shutter vibrations)


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 19, 2015)

Larsskv said:


> The question is, how the h*** are they able to rate the A7RII higher than the 5DS, with those con lists. The A7RII shortcomings are way, way more negative to me than those mentioned for the 5DS (that arent complete BS - AF performance and shutter vibrations)



Clearly you're behind the times. In case no one has bothered to educate you, modern photography is all about low ISO DR and extreme shadow pushing capability. DxO gets it. DPR gets it. What's wrong with you, bub??


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## Tinky (Dec 19, 2015)

5DS/5DSR owners...

do you like your camera?

does it do the job you expected and wanted?

No problem.

Potential 5DS/5DSR owners - It's not really designed for sports, so bear that in mind.

Job done.


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## msm (Dec 19, 2015)

Larsskv said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > At least they're still honest about the cons of the A7RII:
> ...



If you want to understand that try to read the review instead of just cutting out a con list without context. The funny thing is, some of the main A7R cons in that list are actually pros when you compare to the 5DS:

- Lock on af unreliable? Their vidoes show it beats the crap out of the useless ITR garbage from Canon which is only there to add a bullet point on the spec sheet. 150k pixel RGB/IR metering sensor and still they can't do it.
- How's 5DS eye af with 3rd party lenses? Oh wait it doesn't exist. How well does Canon perform with leica M or Nikon lenses btw?
- Camera drops to 12bits during continous shooting loosing dynamic range? Oh wait it is still a stop better than 5DS at both high and low ISO.
- Video never shows low light advantage of full frame sensor? Still beats the 5DS video in low light.
- 4k overheating? How long does the 5DS record 4k?

And some stuff belong in the 5DS list which isn't there. Like all the AFMA bullshit and inconsistant AF points for instance and lack of ability to have full control over exposure through the viewfinder (hello chimping). I guess people have grown so accustomed to the cons of DSLRs they forget about it.

I think DPR has done an excellent job at their reviews. They cover all aspects of the shooting experience and demonstrates the cameras abilities nicely through videos and images.


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## Larsskv (Dec 19, 2015)

msm said:


> Larsskv said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...



You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well. 

And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me. 

As for the DPR review, I wont read it. We have way better sources for information than DPR.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 19, 2015)

msm said:


> I think DPR has done an excellent job at their reviews. They cover all aspects of the shooting experience and demonstrates the cameras abilities nicely through videos and images.



Of course - when your biases coincide with those of a reviewer, it's obviously an excellent review.


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## Sporgon (Dec 19, 2015)

I eventually discovered many years ago when I was a car nut, just how cars that were exciting for the magazines to review didn't always translate to those of us that had to use the thing every day. 

I guess it's the same with cameras. I mean just how boring must it be to review the same old boring Canon dslr year after year compared with the exciting Sony ? The Canon looks the same as it always did, it feels the same to hold; buttons are in the same place, menus more or less the same. Shadow latitude although more than most will ever want is still behind the competition. Nothing changes. Duh ! I bet they fall asleep. 

I don't read DPR anymore, but this thread prompted me to look, and I see the 7DII got a Silver Award ! ;D


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## martti (Dec 19, 2015)

Some people seem to take fantastic pictures with their recognizable touch and feel with Nikon and Canon and you cannot really tell which one they are using. Then there are some people who make absolutely top class pictures with Sony and they do not want to change at any price. They have configured the menus, they have bought extra batteries and they have both sharp native Sony lenses and they are sure that anyone who needs something more is a maniac fanboy.

What should I do about this situation?
I think I'll just learn to take better pictures with my 5DIII and the lenses I got. As it seems, in most situations even the Real Pros cannot find a relevant difference in the final picture quality of the main camera brands. 
This is consumerism gone mad, nothing else.

PS. I remember when people started talking about the Dynamic Range in the POTN forum. One of the glamour people was about to sell all his Canon stuff and get Nikon's DR. I hope he is happy with his choices. Couldn't care less.


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## msm (Dec 19, 2015)

Larsskv said:


> You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well.



What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.



> And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.



Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D



> As for the DPR review, I wont read it. We have way better sources for information than DPR.



Like? This forum? :


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## msm (Dec 19, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > I think DPR has done an excellent job at their reviews. They cover all aspects of the shooting experience and demonstrates the cameras abilities nicely through videos and images.
> ...



That looks more like how you operate, not me. Their review nailed both the good and bad things about both cameras. Can you? Still haven't seen you say anything positive about Sony. So either everything is either bad with Sony or you are biased. Which one is it? :


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## martti (Dec 19, 2015)

msm said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > msm said:
> ...



Everybody else is biased, not me. I am right and being right one just cannot be biased. Look at Ken, for instance. 8)


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## bdunbar79 (Dec 19, 2015)

msm said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > msm said:
> ...



No, wrong. They totally missed the AF evaluation. And since I've actually shot sports/action with all of the cameras above, I can make that claim. Have you? The 1Dx and 5Ds spank the living crap out of the A7R II tracking, especially in low light. But I guess since you haven't actually tested it yourself, you wouldn't know. So yes, neuro is right, you are totally biased and are just trying to get attention.


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## msm (Dec 19, 2015)

bdunbar79 said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



By tracking the subject we mean the ability of the camera to pick the AF point to follow a subject moving around in the frame. 1DX is clearly better at tracking distance using a fixed AF point over the subject exactly as DPReview points out but when it comes to selecting AF point by itself to track a subject it is far behind Nikon and Sony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efAQI4CbS5s

Answer honestly: how often do you let the camera track the subject when shooting sports/action?


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## Maiaibing (Dec 19, 2015)

Tried to sell mine today - but already no buyers after the Dpreview came out. Guess I'm stuck with my 5DS/R for several years now. Fortunately, I rather like the experience with all its perceived/real shortcomings. 

(Tried to post some samples but web site does not let me?)


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## Larsskv (Dec 19, 2015)

msm said:


> Larsskv said:
> 
> 
> > You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well.
> ...



I have seen plenty of videos on Youtube showing that the A7RII locks up for a long time, that it gets a bug where you have to reset the camera - and when you do, all your customizations are reset. Reviewers have said that they have wanted to smash the camera up on several occasions because of such bugs.

Since you obviously do everything you can to avoid my point, I will make it clearer to you. If you prefer hitting the red light, in stead of the green, get a Sony. If you prefer laying behind grandma in 40 in the 60 zone, instead of having the road all to your self, get the Sony. If you get excited when running low on fuel, and not knowing when or if you reach the next gas station, get the Sony.


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## Larsskv (Dec 19, 2015)

msm said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > msm said:
> ...



Ok, so you prefer the camera to choose where to focus. I prefer to be in charge of that. Having an optical viewfinder with no lag makes it easy to track a subject through the viewfinder. You should try it some time.


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## scyrene (Dec 19, 2015)

msm said:


> What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.
> 
> Fair enough. I get it. You spray and pray alot and fill the buffer and you got problems with changing batteries. I am more interested in cameras that perform well at their main task, capturing images but we all got different priorites. ;D



Are you actually saying that the Sony it perfect and the 5Ds is not capable of performing well at capturing images?? Surely both cameras have plus and minus points.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 19, 2015)

scyrene said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.
> ...



Yes, that's what he said. But he's not biased. Not even a little bit. :


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## msm (Dec 19, 2015)

Larsskv said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > Larsskv said:
> ...



I have actually used an A7R II for over 11k shots now which judging from your post you haven't. I find it as stable as my Canon cameras all of which by the way I have experienced lock ups with and only turning them off or even removing the battery would help. Only trouble I know about is when using buggy 3rd party adapters which you can hardly blame on the body.

Lousy analogy by the way.


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## msm (Dec 19, 2015)

Larsskv said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



I prefer to have the ability to do both. Through a viewfinder with less lag than your brain.


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## Larsskv (Dec 19, 2015)

msm said:


> Larsskv said:
> 
> 
> > msm said:
> ...



I guess that owning that A7RII makes you bitter and defensive. You´re excused.


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## msm (Dec 19, 2015)

scyrene said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.
> ...



Nope. Never claimed that. Sony is far from perfect. Canon is far from perfect. Somehow some posters on this forum seems to be blind about the 2nd fact, I guess the need to justify expensive purchases is strong here.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 19, 2015)

msm said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > msm said:
> ...



Apparently you have issues with metacognition.


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## msm (Dec 19, 2015)

Larsskv said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > Larsskv said:
> ...



Thank you but you are wrong, I have never been more happy with my gear. Just have to shake my head in disbelief when I read some of the bullshit written on this forum though, from people talking about stuff they have never tried.


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## msm (Dec 19, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Huh?


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## Larsskv (Dec 19, 2015)

msm said:


> Larsskv said:
> 
> 
> > msm said:
> ...



And that bulls**t is? The A7 cameras have long lasting batteries, no hang ups og bugs, direct AF-point controls? 

I am glad that you enjoy your camera, but we are many here on this forum that disagree with the DPR ratings, and how they value different features, and that is what we are discussing. Of course the A7RII has a lot going for it, but Sony still has a way to go. I´ll admit though, that the Sony´s are advancing fast. One of my main problems with Sony, is that they are pushing unfinished products into the market, and that they are ignoring what they did in the past. Remember the a-mount? I do not have the confidence that Sony won´t change direction tomorrow, leaving investments in lenses etc in the dust.


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## msm (Dec 19, 2015)

Larsskv said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > Larsskv said:
> ...



For instance like you questioning a score in a review which by your own admission you haven't even read, making claims like the A7R II is unstable and has half implemented features without ever having used it or having some data to back that up or pointing out what features are "half implemented".


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## K-amps (Dec 19, 2015)

Yet another thread succumbs to intolerance of other people's opinions... Ad Homeinum Ad nauseum...

Yes we know Canon is dragging its heels on keeping its old sensor fab intact, we were disappointed in 2012, when the 5d3 came out and almost 4 years later we are disappointed in the 5dsr... Guess what there is no perfect Camera out there... 

Last week I tried out (comparing my 5d3) a A7r2 and a A810. First impressions... The D810 was horrible to hold and grip, I had no idea holding a body could stimulate such negative emotions in me... It was even worse than the A7r2, which at least was lighter. 

I am primarily a cityscape/ Landscape/ macro sort of shooter, so AF is not a big deal for me, but I can understand it is for the majority. I love Canon lenses... Anyone try the new Nikkor 24-70 f2.8? Ask a Nikon shooter how disappointing that lens is... on the other hand, the files out of the D810 are such a joy to work with, the workflow is painless. It takes a lot of work and processing to get the 5d3 file (harsh city lights etc.) look right, it breaks apart when you start stretching color and hues, the 810 file stays intact longer, I don't know why. 

The A7r2 files were middle of the two, cleaner than the 5d3 at base iso but not as clean as the older D810. (attached is 100% crops comparing the 3.... you guys guess which one is which. These are unprocessed RAW's converted at the ACR base values)

The second shot is the full version to show you total exposure. (from the 5d3 RAW)

I have been thinking about upgrading to either the 5dsr, A7r2 or D810 for a few months, I am glad I actually tried out the D810, which made me take a step back and tell myself, wait for 6 months.... maybe next year Canon can compete on cleaner files... only you can decide what's good for you...

I really hope Canon knocks it out of the Park next year.


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## kaihp (Dec 19, 2015)

tomscott said:


> The difference in ISO is pretty minimal in my eyes. The big difference that eh 5DSR and 5DS have is lack of colour noise the 5DMKIII is infuriating.



I'm a little confused - are you saying that you're unhappy with the colour noise of the 5D3? ???

I ask because I'm extremely happy with the _lack_ of colour noise in my 5D3 - but then again my reference is my old 50D which I hate the guts out of due to soft pics and colour noise


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## candc (Dec 20, 2015)

[/quote]

You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well. 

And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me. 

As for the DPR review, I wont read it. We have way better sources for information than DPR.
[/quote]

"no direct af point control" means there is no touchscreen. you press one of the top buttons and then you move the af point around with the wheels or the jog dial. pretty much the same as most dslr's. i think the menus are okay. they are organized in tabs and logical to find through. 

the buttons are mushy though, same as on the rx100iii.


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## sdsr (Dec 20, 2015)

Larsskv said:


> And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.



They're not worth much to me either since, being rather odd, I much prefer MF to AF and have zero interest in much of what interests reviewers (much of the time when reading this or other reviews I find myself asking "who cares?" - especially re the ludicrous examples they provided for their DR complaints). But if you prefer MF to AF and want FF, the Sony a7 line beats any FF dslr and the lens shortage becomes a glut. Leaving all that aside, some of these complaints are merely subjective. How many AF cameras give you direct AF point control? The only ones I've used that do that are m43 Olympus; all the rest require you to push some button first before you can move it. Small, mushy buttons? They don't seem that way to me, but as long as they work I don't care; maybe my fingertips are small enough. Sluggish buffer? I guess so, esp. given the large raw files, but I only ever use single shot so again, I don't care. Limited batter life? Yes, like all mirrorless cameras with EVFs, but given the appeal to me of mirrorless and EVFs and the fact that it's easy to carry spares, I don't care. Bad menus? Compared to Canon, sure, but try Olympus some time.... Anyway, given the extent to which the cameras let me configure external buttons (including features you won't find on any Canon or Nikon dslr, such as setting the focal length of third party lenses for IBIS purposes), I only use the menu for three things, only one of which I use regularly, so that doesn't matter either. 

But that's me. If all those things matter to you, that's fine, of course.


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## sanj (Dec 20, 2015)

msm said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > msm said:
> ...



So when your biases don't coincide with those of a reviewer, its a bad review?


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## sanj (Dec 20, 2015)

scyrene said:


> msm said:
> 
> 
> > What half finished and not properly working features? What bugs? You have any experience with this camera at all? If there is anything that is at best half finished and not working properly it must be something like Canons IT&R.
> ...



Surely


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## jd7 (Dec 20, 2015)

candc said:


> > You don't get it. The cons with the A7RII has in common with the A7 series in general, that features are half finished and implemented before they work properly or bug free. If the camera is causing trouble or has delays while shooting, it would bug the h*** out of me. I have never had such an issue with the 6D, 7DII or 5DS. They always work without issues, and what they can do, they do well.
> >
> > And come on - no direct AF point control, too small mushy buttons, buffer sluggish to clear, very limited battery life, bad menus- those things are a PAIN in everyday use. I couldnt live with that, and it is likely that it would drive me to throw the camera in a concrete wall at some point. Therefore, the scores at DPR is worth nothing to me.
> >
> ...



At least with the XXD, 7D, 6D and 5D series cameras (no doubt also with 1D although I've not tried them) there is an option so you can control af point without having to press a button on top the camera. You just press the joystick or wheel and it immediately moves the af point. I assume that is what is meant by direct af point control.


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## AlanF (Dec 21, 2015)

After all the discussion about the A7R II, I decided to try it for myself with the Metabones. I returned it after less than a day, not because it was a bad camera but it wasn't for me and my own purposes. It was small and light - it looked and felt to handle exactly like my 3G X, both having a suspiciously similar ev adjustment dial, a feature I like. The 3G does have the advantage of a touch screen and a built in lens! Big pluses of the Sony are that the IQ is very good indeed and you don't have to AFMA lenses. The camera worked well with my old 24-105mm for general photography and landscapes. There were several downsides. The first was the menu - it is as clumsy and ant-intuitive as rumoured, and I first had to trawl the internet to find out to format the SD card, as it wasn't in the guide and was eventually located in a sub-menu. The battery life was appalling, and it was quickly drained by the 100-400mm II. 

The killer for me is that it is not suitable for my type of nature photography. The problem is that I need centre spot focus for bird photography with precision for picking out small birds between branches. So, in this mode the Sony does not use all the focal points in the sensor, which slows down focussing, and I didn't learn how to use just a tight spot focus, if one exists (it's like using the 70D rather than a 7DII). The focussing would be fine for a bird in flight or one without an obscuring background. The IS on the 100-400mm II worked fine when it was turned on. Unfortunately, turning it off didn't seem to activate the internal iS of the Sony, or if it did it was lousy for a telephoto. Perhaps I have missed something.

The other important factor is that as now is becoming common, I use the telephoto lens and camera as a hand held spotting scope (with excellent IS). The optical finder of the 7DII and its x1 magnification is better.

The Sony is clearly excellent in many ways, but it's not for everyone.


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## sanj (Dec 21, 2015)

AlanF said:


> After all the discussion about the A7R II, I decided to try it for myself with the Metabones. I returned it after less than a day, not because it was a bad camera but it wasn't for me and my own purposes. It was small and light - it looked and felt to handle exactly like my 3G X, both having a suspiciously similar ev adjustment dial, a feature I like. The 3G does have the advantage of a touch screen and a built in lens! Big pluses of the Sony are that the IQ is very good indeed and you don't have to AFMA lenses. The camera worked well with my old 24-105mm for general photography and landscapes. There were several downsides. The first was the menu - it is as clumsy and ant-intuitive as rumoured, and I first had to trawl the internet to find out to format the SD card, as it wasn't in the guide and was eventually located in a sub-menu. The battery life was appalling, and it was quickly drained by the 100-400mm II.
> 
> The killer for me is that it is not suitable for my type of nature photography. The problem is that I need centre spot focus for bird photography with precision for picking out small birds between branches. So, in this mode the Sony does not use all the focal points in the sensor, which slows down focussing, and I didn't learn how to use just a tight spot focus, if one exists (it's like using the 70D rather than a 7DII). The focussing would be fine for a bird in flight or one without an obscuring background. The IS on the 100-400mm II worked fine when it was turned on. Unfortunately, turning it off didn't seem to activate the internal iS of the Sony, or if it did it was lousy for a telephoto. Perhaps I have missed something.
> 
> ...



Alan it seems like you used A7R for wrong kind of photography. 5d3, 1dx would suit your need better. 
Regards menus, it is really about learning and getting used to. Like phones, cars etc.


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## AlanF (Dec 21, 2015)

I do have a 5D3 (and a 7DII). The menus on Sonys are frequently complained about. This is what dpreviews say about Sony:

"Sony's full menu system, accessed by pressing the 'Menu' button on the back of the camera, is frankly a disorganized mess. For example, 22 AF options are split across 11 different submenu pages under 2 different main menu headers. The lack of organization is inexplicable, but what makes it even worse is the lack of a customizable 'My Menu', which would at least have allowed user to collate all frequently used menu options under customizable tabs. It's silly that I have to go to the second line of the fifth page of the sixth tab simply to format my memory card, something you might (and should) often do."

I am sure I could learn my way around the menus, but I want programs to be intuitive


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 21, 2015)

AlanF said:


> I am sure I could learn my way around the menus, but I want programs to be intuitive



Hey, if George R. R. Martin can write the Game of Thrones novels in WordStar running under MS DOS, we should all be able to learn to use Sony's menu system, right? 

Then again, it takes him several years to bang out a book, so maybe there are more efficient ways?


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## Neutral (Dec 21, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure I could learn my way around the menus, but I want programs to be intuitive
> ...


When person is trying to make a joke about the subject which he does not know well or does not know at all and he and think that people would laugh about his joke most probably that people would laugh about his awkward attempt to display his total ignorance.

In 99% of situations there is no need to use a7r2 menu at all. At has more than 20 customizable positions and if person spend couple of hours to learn the camera right after it was bought and set up all to his shooting style then all required functions are accessible just in one ore two buttons clicks.
I posted earlier (end of August) what i did for myself and sinse then i neveve need to use menu to switch shooting modes.
The ony one function which can not be programmed on the button is switch between FF mode and APS-C modes.

As owner of 1dx it took me couple of hours to fugure out what I need to do for myself and since then I rarely need to access menu system.
Now I use a7r2 most of the time (mostly with canon lenses) and 1dx not so frequently. 
And image quality from a7r2 is much better than from any of the Canon cameras at any ISO range (from 100 to 12800).
What I like about a7r2 that it works better with many canon lenses than Canon cameras and no need for lens AFMA.
One example of this is ef 85 f/1.2 II. Focuses fast and accurate even in very low light.Much better than on any canon body.
EF 100-400 II with 1.4x adapter also gives excellent results on a7r2
EYE AF is something that no Canon cameras could not do at all.
For anyone who used that it is difficult to justify lack of such capability in Canon cameras.

On the other hand 5ds(r) is also very good camera, I initially wanted to buy it as addition to1dx, but a7r2 changed my mind. For me set of 1dx and a7r2 is much more capable combination(camera for sportand actions and general use camera) and it giving me much more flexibility and better quality than i could have using 1dx and 5ds. For other people this could be different depending on their personal requirements.
So far 5ds(r) is the best canon FF camera giving goog image quality even at iso 12800.
After DXO Prime noise reduction 5ds iso 12800 files are very clean. For DXO Prime more pixel density results in better final image. But for a7r2 results is better at high iso, canon now is behind sony in the area where canon was always better.
Of course there is no perfect cameras in the world and hopefully we will see many interesting things in the near future.
Sorry for any typing errors, was typing that on small smartphone screen, a bit difficult to do so.


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## Jopa (Dec 22, 2015)

Neutral said:


> EYE AF is something that no Canon cameras could not do at all.



The A7r2 doesn't support the Eye-AF feature with any adapter, E-mount only 

I also tried the 85 f/1.2L II via the Metabones mk4 - epic fail in low light (wide open, a slightly moving subject). Got about 3 pics in focus out of 50 shots total. No problem at all on on the 5dsr though...


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## Neutral (Dec 22, 2015)

Jopa said:


> Neutral said:
> 
> 
> > EYE AF is something that no Canon cameras could not do at all.
> ...



1. Definitly - EYE AF is supported on a7r2 only using native E-mount lenses, not supposed to be supported on 3d party lenses. 

2. Not sure what was wrong with your experince using 85 f/1.2 II on a7r2, my is completly different - almost all shots are sharp even in very low light - LR reports brightness below minus 6.

Couple of things could be the reason for your negative experience.
2.1. EF 85 f1.2 has very shallow DOF wide open so even slight movement of the subject after focus was locked in AF-S mode (no AF tracking) would result that subject will be out of focus.
2.2. Metabone adaptors do not claim support for continious AF support, it could be ok for some lenses and not very good for some others. But no official guarantee from Metabone for supporting that - this is clearly claimed for each FW release. Also it is better to use latest FW releases 0.46 or 0.47 which provide significantly better a7r2 PDAF support for most of the latest Canon lenses.
So if you need to use AF tracking mode for canon lenses in low light then definetly you need to use 1dx or 5ds and not a7r2. And this is one of the cases when I still using 1dx and not a7r2.
For such cases a7r2 need to be used with native mount lenses - e.g. Zeiss 35 f1.4 which is perfect choice for a7r2 for low light conditions. With this set i was able to do perfect shots in very low light with quality which was not possible even with 1dx. IBIS is invaluable in such low light situations.
2.3. EF 85 f/1.2 II still has relatively slow AF and not intended for continious AF mode to track moving subjects. For slow motion could be OK but not for fast tracking.

In general for best results it is required to know which setup is better suited for each particular task/environment.


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## sanj (Dec 22, 2015)

AlanF said:


> I do have a 5D3 (and a 7DII). The menus on Sonys are frequently complained about. This is what dpreviews say about Sony:
> 
> "Sony's full menu system, accessed by pressing the 'Menu' button on the back of the camera, is frankly a disorganized mess. For example, 22 AF options are split across 11 different submenu pages under 2 different main menu headers. The lack of organization is inexplicable, but what makes it even worse is the lack of a customizable 'My Menu', which would at least have allowed user to collate all frequently used menu options under customizable tabs. It's silly that I have to go to the second line of the fifth page of the sixth tab simply to format my memory card, something you might (and should) often do."
> 
> I am sure I could learn my way around the menus, but I want programs to be intuitive



I have the Sony 100 III. I find the menus very easy to navigate. "Intuitive" would imply easy to follow etc. I am sure someone who has been using Sony cameras before would find it easy to go through a new Sony camera. The same photographer would struggle with a new Canon or Nikon menu layout. A Samsung phone user will struggle for a bit with Iphone and Iphone user will struggle with Samsung. But once familiar, one knows where to go to do what.


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## sanj (Dec 22, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure I could learn my way around the menus, but I want programs to be intuitive
> ...



If someone cannot, unlike hundreds who can, learn a menu system then it speaks about them and not the menus. Menu 'efficiency' lies with familiarity. I have studied the menu system on my Sony and find it extremely straightforward.


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## sanj (Dec 22, 2015)

What I am trying to get at is that there are many other things to discuss about in camera systems than the menu system. Once learnt all photographers can reach where they want in the menu just as easy.


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## AlanF (Dec 22, 2015)

sanj said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > AlanF said:
> ...



Why do you make it personal as if is a character flaw or show that someone is incapable of learning if they write they want an intuitive rather than a clunky menu system?


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## daniela (Dec 22, 2015)

Hi XPS!

Do not sell it, but do not buy one in the next few month. I stayed in Japan for a few weeks and my Canon-fangirls rumored, Canon is working hard to release the 5 D Mark IV and an update on the 5 DS series. Sadly, the 5 D Mark IV releases (except the 1 D series) will not get all of the innovations. New sensor (but not the newest and best one) is definitively coming. Rumored with slightly improved DR. Built in WIFI, better AF area coverage. So wait until spring. 

Liebe Grüße aus dem sonnigen Kufstein in Tirol 8)
Daniela


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## AlanF (Dec 22, 2015)

dilbert said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



"Images are good, which is nice. It’s a pleasure to use too. Well, apart from the interface, which is still stupidly Sony. It’s not the clunkiest of menus but some aspects are a bit Asperger’s." Digitalrev


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## Neutral (Dec 22, 2015)

dilbert said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



All this is very simple.
Intuitive in most cases is to what person is familiar, and get used to.
For such case not intuitive just means that person is not get used to and need to change his habits of doing things in some particular way. For some people this is not easy.
For myself i do not see much difference in menu systems for both canon and sony.
Conceptually it is all the same - just items structure to hold functional items.
What is only requied is to read it from A to Z before first use to know what is where and get required functions set to programmable positions. Exactly the same for both canon and sony.

The other thing to feel system intuitive is to understand the whole concept and only after that to look for deeper details.
This is universal rule that applies to everything. I always tells this fist when do technical training for systems support engineers and always start from system concept then further to the deeper details.
Once concept is clear the rest is simple.
This is the same for sony menu system.
It has 3 levels oh hierarchy :
Bottom level is the main non progammable system menu which is holder for all functional items.
Middle level is fully programmable functional menu system accessible via FN button.
Top level are programmble function buttons and positions.
So before first use just read main menu system from A to Z, and copy required functions to top level or middle level per personal preferances and voila - all done, it would be 100% intuitive for person who did this customization for himself. 
And all this does not require more than 2-3 hours before first camera use even for average person. The only one thing required before that is that person knows what he wants for himself.

In general I find Canon 1DX is much less flexible in this respect but this is irrelevant as most of 1dx functional modes are already predefined on exiting buttons and dials so not many additions are needed.
Of course there some things are missing for a7r2.
One of them no possibility to save custom setup to NAMED file (not just C1 or C2 or C3 settings) on SD card and have possibility to have several sets of useful setting for different situations and also to have ability to restore settings in one click after camera factory reset or to copy these setting to another camera.
The other one is no possibility to copy APS-C /FF function to any programmable position.
There some other shotcomings.
As for DP review I find it quite balanced and useful for both Canon andSony users.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 22, 2015)

sanj said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > AlanF said:
> ...





Neutral said:


> Intuitive in most cases is to what person is familiar, and get used to.



I don't think either of you grasp the concept of 'intuitive' (Evidently it's not an autology!). I'm sure Mr. Martin has learned and is quite familiar with pressing Ctrl-K-S-Y to save a document, but that's not exactly intuitive.


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## AlanF (Dec 22, 2015)

Neutral, it is indeed true that there is an inter-relationship between intuition and familiarity. At one extreme, however, it is possible to grasp a novel concept or procedure with out any prior knowledge, and at the other a strong familiarity allows an application of prior knowledge to a related system. Your are throwing out the whole concept of intuition by claiming that people have to give up their habits and spend hours learning new systems.

It reminds me of when Apple first introduced windows to their OS while Microsoft was still using a varied set of keystrokes for all operations. The geeks decried Apple and laughed at the non-geeks, but Microsoft had to go over to Windows. The geeks are still faster, no doubt, but the non-geeks are able to use software without enrolling on courses.

Quote: "What is only required is to read it from A to Z before first use to know what is where and get required functions set to programmable positions. Exactly the same for both canon and sony"

Sony doesn't have, or makes it difficult to find, in its manual how to format an SD card, which is a double whammy because its OS, unlike Canon's, often requires that an SD card has to be formatted before use. OK, you can spend several hours on one of your courses first. But, most of us want a turnkey system.


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## kaihp (Dec 22, 2015)

Neutral said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure that the engineers at Sony thought it was intuitive and straight forward when they designed it.
> ...



This is the best definition of "intuitive" that I have found:


> The only intuitive user interface is The Nipple. Everything else is learned.


(some mothers have kindly pointed out to me that Nipples are not always totally intuitive to the Intended Users either ;D )


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## candc (Dec 22, 2015)

the sony menu system is pretty similar to whats on the 7dii. it has tabs with familiar icons on top. they use a toolbox icon instead of a wrench. both are better than whats on the 6d.


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## sanj (Dec 22, 2015)

kaihp said:


> Neutral said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



hahahahaha.


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## sanj (Dec 22, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Entirely possible Neuro I do not have a real grasp of intuitive in this regard, I am first to admit. I think this requires further exploration and specific examples between the two menu systems to conclude Canon is superior to others.


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## sanj (Dec 22, 2015)

AlanF said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Not being offensive, defensive or making it a character flaw. Just saying it as I understand it.


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## sanj (Dec 22, 2015)

AlanF said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > AlanF said:
> ...



I do not believe everything Digitalrev (or many others have to say). I make my own conclusions based on examination/use.


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## sanj (Dec 22, 2015)

Neutral said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > AlanF said:
> ...



Very well said. Mostly. I do not like anyone saying anything against 1dx. hahahaha.


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## sanj (Dec 22, 2015)

candc said:


> the sony menu system is pretty similar to whats on the 7dii. it has tabs with familiar icons on top. they use a toolbox icon instead of a wrench. both are better than whats on the 6d.



Thank you for posting a real example on this discussion. Yes I agree, there is nothing wrong with Sony menu, just it is different than Canon.


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## tr573 (Dec 22, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> I don't think either of you grasp the concept of 'intuitive' (Evidently it's not an autology!). I'm sure Mr. Martin has learned and is quite familiar with pressing Ctrl-K-S-Y to save a document, but that's not exactly intuitive.



escape-colon-w is obviously the most intuitive way to save a file.


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## AlanF (Dec 22, 2015)

This discussion is quite interesting. There is a difference between the standard usage of intuitive and that referring to human-computer interfaces, which has been subject to much analysis by computer engineers - the former being insight without familiarity and the latter much more based on familiarity. There are those who enjoy being members of groups steeped in arcane mystery and revel in the difficult twists and turns, and the rest who like a simple life. I personally prefer computer programs I can use without having to read the manual until all else fails and steps that are readily reversible without going back to restart. Some software engineers use the same intuitive reasoning I have. Unfortunately, there are aspects of Adobe software - Illustrator, InDesign and PS that are more alien to me than in other programs.


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## tr573 (Dec 22, 2015)

sanj said:


> Entirely possible Neuro I do not have a real grasp of intuitive in this regard, I am first to admit. I think this requires further exploration and specific examples between the two menu systems to conclude Canon is superior to others.



So, one real world example that dpreview points out in their A7R2 review (in which they do call sony out for a lot of flaws, despite what some people are screaming over there) is that there are (their words) 22 AF configuration options, which are spread across 4 different menu tabs. Canon places all AF things , in the AF menu tab. 

This is the kind of thing (IMO) that happens when you let software engineers design your UI, rather than dedicated UX people. My company has a bunch of product teams where this happens, and you end up wtih the same sort of thinking "Well, this subroutine is here in the code, so it belongs here in the UI" - but that doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't know how the backend is laid out.


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## Neutral (Dec 22, 2015)

sanj said:


> candc said:
> 
> 
> > the sony menu system is pretty similar to whats on the 7dii. it has tabs with familiar icons on top. they use a toolbox icon instead of a wrench. both are better than whats on the 6d.
> ...


Exactly. 
The similar set of camera functions organized in the similar way.
Does not require more than 5-10 minutes to look through A to Z and then some more time to play with new additional functions.
The only difference is that Sony concept (additional mid-layer fully customizable functions menu subset via FN button) provides much better setup flexibility than Canon menu system. And this is what is not grasped at all by people complaining about clumpsy sony menu system. 
They just do not see what is sitting right in front of them as they used to old not customizable menu system where all is already defined by manufacturer for them).
I see Sony concept of menu sytem as very smart design decision from sony engineers. This functional menu subset allows total user customization allowing camera to be 100% intuitive and friendly to the user and not rely on what manufacture decided to put in the main menu system.
User just set it up to what is best for him and then do not spend time going to the main menu system when using camera. 
As some people suggested comparison between Window and MS DOS for intuitive concept then this functional menu subset is "Windows over MS DOS" allowing to get access to required functions in just couple of clicks. And it is more advanced than "Windows" concept as user defines himself required functionality and the best way to access that.
Or user might be quite happy with the default functional subset and do not do any customozation. 
Users just only need to know about this concept (functional menu subset via dedicated FN button) and understand that they do not need to go to the main system menu for the most frequently used functions.
I think for some people thinking inertia is the factor which is causing some problems.
Different system most probaly means different design concept so it is required to think a bit different to grasp differencies and possible advantages that might not be very obvious at first glance.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 22, 2015)

When someone doesn't agree with you, it's always easiest to claim they are disagreeing because they lack understanding.


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## NancyP (Dec 22, 2015)

.....when the truth is that they disagree just to keep the discussion going....


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## sanj (Dec 22, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> When someone doesn't agree with you, it's always easiest to claim they are disagreeing because they lack understanding.



I have noticed that too. Some post actual examples to show the facts.


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## sdsr (Dec 22, 2015)

AlanF said:


> This discussion is quite interesting. There is a difference between the standard usage of intuitive and that referring to human-computer interfaces, which has been subject to much analysis by computer engineers - the former being insight without familiarity and the latter much more based on familiarity. There are those who enjoy being members of groups steeped in arcane mystery and revel in the difficult twists and turns, and the rest who like a simple life. I personally prefer computer programs I can use without having to read the manual until all else fails and steps that are readily reversible without going back to restart.



Yes, it is rather interesting - and it says quite a lot about the quality of current cameras that so much discussion can be devoted to this particular topic (I'm rather surprised to find myself adding to it...) - and I tend to agree with you. (I'm surprised, though, that you had such a hard time finding the card formatting page - you can look at them all in less than a minute.) 

But at least Sony uses familiar words in its menus, unlike Olympus, who occasionally resort to what seems like a private language. E.g.. on the OMD EM5 you can ask the camera to apply IBIS to the image while looking through the EVF (you would think that was the default mode, but no). But you would probably never know this was an option from looking at the menu, and I doubt I would have ever found out about it at all had I not read a discussion on some forum and then asked for precise directions on how to do it. Sony's menus look as good as Canon's after dealing with that mess. But again, as with Sony, once you've configured the various buttons on the exterior of the camera the way you want them, the number of times you'll need to look at a menu is vanishingly small. 

On my Sonys the only times I look at the menu are to add a folder to the memory card or reformat it (frequent, so I know where to do it), manually select APS-C for third party lenses (rarely, so I have to rummage around a bit), and make the camera completely silent and dark (to remain unobtrusive in a theatre; I did that once).

All that said, I agree that Canon wins in terms of menu design (and that's not a matter of familiarity - I came to Canon after Nikon and Pentax). For whatever that's worth.


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## AlanF (Dec 24, 2015)

It's pretty much consensus among the top review sites that, whatever the definition of "intuitive" you use or however much you excoriate those who are too lazy or incompetent to work on the Sony menu system, Sony is not in the top league menu-wise.
Cameralabs is a good site:
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7r_II/

"Sony's menus could also do with some work. Items aren't always grouped consistently and depending on some settings or modes, others can be mysteriously greyed-out. For example if you have RAW or RAW+JPEG selected, you may wonder why the HDR or Picture Effects are unavailable, and you're not in the panorama mode, you can't change the panorama settings even if you wanted to in advance. Things get even more confusing if you're using the downloadable apps, as most employ their own menus, including things like image quality settings. So you may think you've already set the image quality, but if you enter an app, you'll need to do it again. In the heat of the moment it's easy to forget and think you're recording RAW, but then discover the app menu was set to JPEG only.

Of course it may all make complete sense to you as much of this boils down to personal preference, but for me I feel the A7r Mark II's user interface isn't as intuitive or structured as it could be, and that overall usability could be significantly improved with more tactile buttons and dials. Sort this out - and fit a fully-articulated touch-screen - and there's really very little to complain about."


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## martti (Dec 24, 2015)

it took me a year to figure out the A6000 menus and stuff.
I do not like that camera, though wit DXO it is just fine,
If I need the pictures I go with 5dIII
Works for me.


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## Valvebounce (Dec 25, 2015)

Hi Dilbert. 
After a long time of wondering what for, I filled mine, I have not looked back. It makes accessing items that are in sub menus much faster, a very useful feature. 

Merry Christmas, Graham. 



dilbert said:


> Just our of curiosity, how many people fill out the "My Menu" feature on Canon DSLRs?
> 
> I use it for about 99% of my menu work on my camera as it saves me a lot of time.


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## kaihp (Dec 25, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Just our of curiosity, how many people fill out the "My Menu" feature on Canon DSLRs?
> ...



+1. I used just a few "My Menu" items on my 50D, but once I moved to the 5D3, there are so many menus that I moved all my most-used menus into this (and I regret that I can't put more than one screen's worth of menus into "My Menu").

Merry Christmas to everyone


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## AvTvM (Dec 26, 2015)

dilbert said:


> Just our of curiosity, how many people fill out the "My Menu" feature on Canon DSLRs?
> 
> I use it for about 99% of my menu work on my camera as it saves me a lot of time.



+1

Once i've defined C1/2/3 on the main dial and filled MyPreferences menu everything I need is immediately accessible. Canon UI definitely rulez.

That aside i full concur with the 5Ds/R review on dpreview. If i were in the market and willing to spend 3.5k it would definitely be on a Sony A7R II.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 26, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> That aside i full concur with the 5Ds/R review on dpreview. If i were in the market and willing to spend 3.5k it would definitely be on a Sony A7R II.



I thought your primary differentiating criterion was the mirror – did you need the DPR review to tell you the 5DsR has one and the a7RII does not?


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## AvTvM (Dec 26, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > That aside i full concur with the 5Ds/R review on dpreview. If i were in the market and willing to spend 3.5k it would definitely be on a Sony A7R II.
> ...



No. The review just confirmed my view that Canon mirrorslappers are inferior still imaging systems compared to 21st century mirrorless cameras.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 26, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...



Oh, I see. YAPODFC. :


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## bdunbar79 (Dec 26, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Dude, market leading is soooo last century.


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## AlanF (Dec 26, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Please translate YAPODFC


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 26, 2015)

AlanF said:


> Please translate YAPODFC



Yet another prediction of doom for Canon.


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## AvTvM (Dec 27, 2015)

Or ... YABMSFC

Yet another boring mirror slapper from Canon


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## Valvebounce (Dec 27, 2015)

Hi Folks. 
Why do you guys that hate Canon still come here?
I have found in the past that it makes far better use of my precious time to unsubscribe from forums whose subject matter or attitude no longer meet my requirements, it wastes all our time when you are trying to change our minds to sonikon or mirrorless or (add own mission here) we are here because we have and like canon gear! 

Cheers, Graham.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 27, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> Or ... YABMSFC
> 
> Yet another boring mirror slapper from Canon



That's your opinion, which is fine as long as you understand you're in a small minority of camera buyers.


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