# Ballhead or Gimbal?



## ray5 (Sep 5, 2014)

Hi,
I have a tripod with a Kirk ballhead which I like and have no problems with. I anticipate exchanging the tripod legs and keeping the head. I also anticipate getting a super tele sometime later this year. I am wondering whether I should just use the ballhead (weight limit permitting) or explore a gimbal head. Having never used one I have no idea whether it is necessarily useful for me. I main interests are landscapes but want to do wildlife, just haven't had the time to do some wildlife travel. Currently no interest in Birds in flight which I gather is a very good use for gimbals. I understand that gimbal head require a lens collar? I do have a couple of lenses which do not come with a collar. Any input appreciated.
Ray


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## sagittariansrock (Sep 5, 2014)

I wouldn't use a supertele with a ballhead.
The mere risk of the lens flopping down when adjusting is scary enough, and the amazing convenience of using a gimbal head, even with a 100-400mm, is the final clincher.
If you expect switching back and forth between collared and non-collared lenses, a quick release clamp that allows switching between ballheads and gimbal heads will be very useful. RRS makes these clamps and the Arca Swiss dovetails that go with the heads.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> I wouldn't use a supertele with a ballhead.
> The mere risk of the lens flopping down when adjusting is scary enough, and the amazing convenience of using a gimbal head, even with a 100-400mm, is the final clincher.
> If you expect switching back and forth between collared and non-collared lenses, a quick release clamp that allows switching between ballheads and gimbal heads will be very useful. RRS makes these clamps and the Arca Swiss dovetails that go with the heads.



+1

I have the RRS clamping leveling base and dovetails on my gimbal and ballhead to make switching easier. I use the gimbal with the 600 II, usually the ballhead with everything else. However, I can use my RRS PG-02 LLR gimbal with standard lenses by attaching via the upright arm of the L-bracket, in a pinch...or when I put a nodal slide between gimbal and L-bracket, I have a multirow panorama rig.


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## ray5 (Sep 5, 2014)

So I could, with adjustments use a Gimbal with non collared lenses? That's good. I am looking at the TVC34L by RRS. I want to do it right this time and buy beyong my current needs so I a not doing this again in a few years. Could you please point me to the specific RRS products names/numbers which will make this happen. Thanks


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2014)

ray5 said:


> So I could, with adjustments use a Gimbal with non collared lenses? That's good. I am looking at the TVC34L by RRS. I want to do it right this time and buy beyong my current needs so I a not doing this again in a few years. Could you please point me to the specific RRS products names/numbers which will make this happen. Thanks



Yes, you can. By the same token, you can type with your nose and cut a 1-acre lawn with scissors...but do you want to?

Honestly, ballheads are very popular for most photography because they're very convenient to use. IMO, you're better off switching between a gimbal and a ballhead as needed. 

If you do want to mount a non-collared lens on a gimbal, the piece(s) you need depend on whether you choose a side-mount or a bottom-mount gimbal.


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## ray5 (Sep 5, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > So I could, with adjustments use a Gimbal with non collared lenses? That's good. I am looking at the TVC34L by RRS. I want to do it right this time and buy beyong my current needs so I a not doing this again in a few years. Could you please point me to the specific RRS products names/numbers which will make this happen. Thanks
> ...




Since I am looking at RRS, how about their full sized PG-02 Gimbal? WHat accessories would I need for the non collared lenses?


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## TexPhoto (Sep 5, 2014)

Tele+ Ball head = problems. It will be forever trying to flop over. A big lens will take the tripod over with it.

A gimbal is best, but a fluid head will work well. 

But if you have a good ball head, consider a wimberly sidekick or similar that converts it to a gimbal. Cheaper, much faster to attach. Works great for me. And I use it with a 400mm f2.8


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## Lurker (Sep 5, 2014)

I use the PG-02 Pro L with a L-bracket on the body as a general purpose head.
It is a beast though.
Use the L-bracket for any lens without a foot, you can attach the body Landscape or Portrait.
Lenses with a foot you setup as a side mount gimbal. Use the collar to rotate L or P
Can easily be used for panos, single or multi row.
Can add macro slide too.

Not the best option for some of these but workable and not so much cargo to haul around and switch.

I put my ball head on a monopod for traveling light.

I've been happy though I don't have a ST to mount on it.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 6, 2014)

With the side mount gimbal (like my PG-02 LLR), you just need an L-bracket on your camera and you just clamp it in. With the FG (full gimbal) head, you need an FAS clamp (you'd swap it with the cradle clamp) or you could put a nodal slide like the MPR-CL II in the cradle clamp. Either way, with the FG you need to carry something else. 

RRS actually recommends the side gimbal over the full gimbal:

http://blog.reallyrightstuff.com/pano-gimbal-heads/

I've been very happy with mine.


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## tculotta (Sep 6, 2014)

+1 for the RRS PG-02 LLR. I use it for the 600 f/4 II and it is rock solid and extremely well engineered for ease of use. It will last more than my lifetime.


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## NancyP (Sep 6, 2014)

This is my solution: a side-mount gimbal arm with the Arca-style dovetail on one end and clamp/gimbal on the other end, that slips into the clamp of the ball head (ball stem placed at bottom of slot). The gimbal arm does the vertical adjustments, the base panning function of the ball head performs the pans. Works great for mid-weight lenses - I use it for my 400mm f/5.6L plus 1.4x TC - push the lens around with a fingertip, if the lensplate is clamped at center of gravity.
http://www.custombrackets.com/products/gimbal-series/cb-gimbal-basic.html Custom Brackets Basic Gimbal is the gimbal arm
Arca Swiss Z1 single pan is the ball head. Any full-sized good-quality head should do - RRS 55, Markins, A/S, etc.

I bought a leveling base for my tripod legs, but unless I want to do a very precise panorama, I leave it at home and just take a little more care in setting the legs level.


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## Jim Saunders (Sep 6, 2014)

Another angle: The Wimberley WH-200 has ARCA-Swiss dovetail on the arm so you can adjust the height of the platform for a collared lens. You could take a duplex clamp (like this) and attach a body with a L bracket to that same arm higher up.

Jim


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## ray5 (Sep 6, 2014)

tculotta said:


> +1 for the RRS PG-02 LLR. I use it for the 600 f/4 II and it is rock solid and extremely well engineered for ease of use. It will last more than my lifetime.





neuroanatomist said:


> With the side mount gimbal (like my PG-02 LLR), you just need an L-bracket on your camera and you just clamp it in. With the FG (full gimbal) head, you need an FAS clamp (you'd swap it with the cradle clamp) or you could put a nodal slide like the MPR-CL II in the cradle clamp. Either way, with the FG you need to carry something else.
> 
> RRS actually recommends the side gimbal over the full gimbal:
> 
> ...


Thanks Neuro and tculotta,
I looked at their video. The setup looks huge! I guess that's needed for the large lenses but when I am not traveling with the ST is this setup too imposing or heavy for lenses i.e 70-200mm F2.8?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 6, 2014)

I wouldn't bring the gimbal unless bringing my 600 II. Since you're getting RRS legs, I'd consider a leveling base with clamp, and the TH-DVTL plates for the bottom of the gimbal and your ballhead.


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## wtlloyd (Sep 6, 2014)

Both.


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## jrista (Sep 6, 2014)

ray5 said:


> Hi,
> I have a tripod with a Kirk ballhead which I like and have no problems with. I anticipate exchanging the tripod legs and keeping the head. I also anticipate getting a super tele sometime later this year. I am wondering whether I should just use the ballhead (weight limit permitting) or explore a gimbal head. Having never used one I have no idea whether it is necessarily useful for me. I main interests are landscapes but want to do wildlife, just haven't had the time to do some wildlife travel. Currently no interest in Birds in flight which I gather is a very good use for gimbals. I understand that gimbal head require a lens collar? I do have a couple of lenses which do not come with a collar. Any input appreciated.
> Ray



Gimbals work superbly well for some types of lenses (generally, large, long, heavy lenses), but they do not work all that well for smaller lenses. They also offer more limited degrees of freedom compared to a ball head (basically, swivel and tilt, that's it), which can be very limiting for certain kinds of photography. Gimbals are big and bulky...compared to an EF 600mm f/4 they are quite small, but compared to a 400/5.6 or smaller lens, they are quite huge. 

I have both ballheads and a gimbal. I use the right one for the job, as the gimbal is definitely not well suited to landscapes, portraiture, pretty much anything that uses my smaller lenses. A ball head can even be used for macro (although it still isn't ideal...macro focusing rails are much better), where as macro...when you need to get really close to something...is pretty much pointless when all you have is a gimbal.

I highly recommend keeping a ball head around. The gimbal, or possibly a sidemount arm like the Mongoose M3.6, will be necessary for a large, long telephoto lens (anything from the 200/2 up through 800/5.6 is going to benefit from a gimbal, and anything 300/2.8 and up is pretty much going to require one), but the ball head is far more versatile for everything else.


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## sagittariansrock (Sep 6, 2014)

I'll make a left field suggestion- why not go for a leveling base instead of a ball head? Here's why:
1. Even with a gimbal head, a leveling base is quite necessary if you want to pan on a horizontal level. Leveling the tripod using the legs, especially with a supertele mounted on it, is not going to be easy.
2. With an L bracket, you rarely need to tilt the ball head more than the 15 degree that the leveling base already offers.
3. Leveling base makes panoramas much easier than with ball heads (except for double panning heads), especially since panning clamps can be mounted on the leveling bases. Panning above the axis control (leveling base or ball head) provides more flexibility than panning below the axis control, as you can only pan with horizon dead center in the latter case.
4. Leveling bases, even by RRS, are much cheaper than quality ball heads. And they are very, very smooth.

I often used to leave my ball head (monoball Z) behind and mount a clamp directly on the panning head, until I Locktite'd everything together and that was the end of that...


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## scottkinfw (Sep 6, 2014)

I took Neuro's advice on this and am glad.

Of course as you go along and get more gear, you can always have more than one tripod/head combo.

Sek



neuroanatomist said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't use a supertele with a ballhead.
> ...


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## tculotta (Sep 6, 2014)

Ray,

To answer your question, I use it for my 70-200 f/2.8 II as well (like others have stated, I have a fear of a flopping lens). It's not overkill for that lens. I also use it "body mounted" with wide angles for panning images that will be stitched together. It's very precise.


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## danski0224 (Sep 6, 2014)

Custom Brackets makes a gimbal:

http://www.custombrackets.com/cb-gimbal.html


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## CaiLeDao (Sep 6, 2014)

I shoot Landscaapes and am moving into some wild life. I found this http://www.uniqball.com/ballheads to be really good. Does a great job at shooting level landscapes as well as having great movement for tracking moving things as well. I honestly cannot say how it compares with a gimbal head as I have never used one, but I really don't understand why all ball heads are not like this.


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## tculotta (Sep 6, 2014)

Serendipitous that I have the RRS pano gimbal and also have a Uniqball so I can comment on that, too. I have one and use it for most of my shooting with wide angles and macros. I am as big a fan of it as I am of the RRS for the big glass. It is highly versatile and solid and steady. The service was also exemplary. I received it from Hungary to Connecticut within 48 hours of ordering.

Cheers,
Ted


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## ray5 (Sep 6, 2014)

jrista said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...



Sound advice. I'll keep my ballhead. I will take long time getting used to the Gimbal and having used a ballhead for years will need time for the transition and then will just move it to a monopod or give it to the kids.


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## ray5 (Sep 6, 2014)

Wow! A lot of choices.... many ways to spend money!!! 
I am looking for videos to show how a leveling base works, what does it exactly do? I am guessing to level the tripod without having to making minor changes to the legs....
My intent always is to keep it simple and not have too many things lying around so was thinking of getting one setup and be able to use it for all purposes. The gimbal may not fit that totally but close. As long as I don't have to carry both, I am ok. The only other thing I will be looking for is a really low and small tripod which will go low with a small footprint. I'll look at the other suggestions too.
Thanks a lot!
Ray


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## Dylan777 (Sep 6, 2014)

CaiLeDao said:


> I shoot Landscaapes and am moving into some wild life. I found this http://www.uniqball.com/ballheads to be really good. Does a great job at shooting level landscapes as well as having great movement for tracking moving things as well. I honestly cannot say how it compares with a gimbal head as I have never used one, but I really don't understand why all ball heads are not like this.



For gimbal head, the heavier the lens the smoother it gets. Once the lens is mounted, you can operate with one finger.


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## danski0224 (Sep 6, 2014)

ray5 said:


> I am looking for videos to show how a leveling base works, what does it exactly do? I am guessing to level the tripod without having to making minor changes to the legs....



Yes, the leveling base allows you to level the part where the ballhead or whatever attaches to without fiddling with the legs.

Significantly speeds up setup.


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## sagittariansrock (Sep 6, 2014)

ray5 said:


> Wow! A lot of choices.... many ways to spend money!!!
> I am looking for videos to show how a leveling base works, what does it exactly do? I am guessing to level the tripod without having to making minor changes to the legs....
> My intent always is to keep it simple and not have too many things lying around so was thinking of getting one setup and be able to use it for all purposes. The gimbal may not fit that totally but close. As long as I don't have to carry both, I am ok. The only other thing I will be looking for is a really low and small tripod which will go low with a small footprint. I'll look at the other suggestions too.
> Thanks a lot!
> Ray



Here's a video showing the leveling base being used with a gimbal head. As you can see, this is the RRS modifiable gimbal head Neuro was talking about. 

Series 2 Leveling Base & Leveling Base Clamp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewn3iHpw8NI


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## helpful (Sep 6, 2014)

I want to thank everyone who participated in this thread for providing a truly useful and informative discussion relevant to many photographers. Outstanding!


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## pleezwrite (Sep 6, 2014)

Check this video, how the uniqball can work even as a gimbal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbwbWFK7iBE
And this one shows the uniqball, the only leveling ballhead, how smoothly it goes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To7iTmCR_so


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## jrista (Sep 6, 2014)

pleezwrite said:


> Check this video, how the uniqball can work even as a gimbal:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbwbWFK7iBE
> And this one shows the uniqball, the only leveling ballhead, how smoothly it goes:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To7iTmCR_so



That's pretty cool. If you want one tripod head to rule them all...get the uniball!


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## Kestrel (Sep 6, 2014)

I have a 600 II and use a Mongoose M3.6 gimbal on a RRS TVC-34L tripod. I find this support package offers the following advantages over other setups:

1. The Mongoose is far lighter than either the Wimberley II or the RRS gimbal. If you're hiking around carrying a 600 II + camera on your shoulder, you'll appreciate lighter gear.
2. The Mongoose M3.6 has a two quick to engage or disengage locking tabs to immobilize the gimbal head for mounting lenses or for when you're carrying the rig over your shoulder. I like this a lot better than having to torque down on knobs like you would need to do on the Wimberley or RRS heads as it isn't part of the gimbal tensioning system, which uses independent knobs on the Mongoose. That way, once you disengage the locking tab you're instantly back to your preset tension setting.
3. I like the Mongoose quick release clamp... it works quickly and securely, which is nice when you're side mounting a lens. The one caveat is you NEED to be careful when you're mounting/dismounting the lens, you don't want to drop $16K worth of camera and lens on the ground.
4. The RRS TVC-34L is tall... tall enough that if I'm trying to photograph birds high up in a tree I don't have to stoop over when the legs are all the way out (I'm 6 feet tall). Long tripod legs are also nice if you're not on level ground.
5. This is just me... but while I love RRS gear and own a lot of it, I was never a fan of how they executed their gimbal head design. I'm sure the quality is superb, but it just looks _funky_ and like overkill. Plus, the knobs don't match each other and it gives it a sort of a "thrown together" look. I'm sure it functions very well but I just don't like the industrial design. My two cents on that. The Wimberley II, well, it looks like it was made by a blacksmith. 

Regardless, whichever gimbal you choose it will be better than a ballhead for a large lens...


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## JPAZ (Sep 6, 2014)

I've been very happy with the Lensmaster gimbal. The heaviest load I have had is a 5d3+300 f/2.8ii+TC2xiii, but I am sure it an support a lot more. I keep Arca compatible plates on everything. Look at their videos online. This is a bit cheaper than Wimberly or other brand names, but seems to me to be very well built.


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## pleezwrite (Sep 6, 2014)

It depends on your tripod, but Uniqball 45 weights 700gr and you no need any levelling base to level your camera. Uniqball includes it! Uniquely among the world of the ballheads.


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## ray5 (Sep 6, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow! A lot of choices.... many ways to spend money!!!
> ...



Understood. Thanks a lot!


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## ray5 (Sep 6, 2014)

pleezwrite said:


> Check this video, how the uniqball can work even as a gimbal:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbwbWFK7iBE
> And this one shows the uniqball, the only leveling ballhead, how smoothly it goes:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To7iTmCR_so



Very unique indeed. Thanks


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## ray5 (Sep 6, 2014)

Kestrel said:


> I have a 600 II and use a Mongoose M3.6 gimbal on a RRS TVC-34L tripod. I find this support package offers the following advantages over other setups:
> 
> 1. The Mongoose is far lighter than either the Wimberley II or the RRS gimbal. If you're hiking around carrying a 600 II + camera on your shoulder, you'll appreciate lighter gear.
> 2. The Mongoose M3.6 has a two quick to engage or disengage locking tabs to immobilize the gimbal head for mounting lenses or for when you're carrying the rig over your shoulder. I like this a lot better than having to torque down on knobs like you would need to do on the Wimberley or RRS heads as it isn't part of the gimbal tensioning system, which uses independent knobs on the Mongoose. That way, once you disengage the locking tab you're instantly back to your preset tension setting.
> ...



Thanks. Always good to have alternatives.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 6, 2014)

pleezwrite said:


> Check this video, how the uniqball can work even as a gimbal:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbwbWFK7iBE
> And this one shows the uniqball, the only leveling ballhead, how smoothly it goes:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To7iTmCR_so



On the gimbal...both lens and camera were off center. I thought I saw movement when he/she moves the lens around.


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## ray5 (Oct 3, 2014)

So....
As I was looking into it I decided to go with all RRS. I have learnt that it's always better to buy more than you need currently so I went with the TVC34L, BH55LR and the TA3-LC-HK. The legs are backordered but just received the rest of the stuff. Wow! Did I underestimate it... They are massive and I bet can support me rest alone a camera setup!


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2014)

ray5 said:


> Wow! Did I underestinate it... They are massive and I bet can support me rest alone a camera setup!



I suspect a much less massive RRS setup could support you. Here's their TQC-14 'travel tripod' which is rated to 25 lbs, supporting a medium format camera rig...and RRS owner Joe Johnson!


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## ray5 (Oct 3, 2014)

;D.
True


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