# 12MP FF, 4k Video, What us video people have always wanted (it seems)



## CarlMillerPhoto (Apr 4, 2014)

Sony A7s. Confirmed 12mp Full Frame sensor and 4k video means 1:1 pixel use (no artifact/binning issues, more accurate color, etc.). Low light should be damn impressive too. Full announcement coming this Sunday (4/6) at NAB.

And unlike the GH4, a metabones adapter already exists that allows aperture control and IS for EF glass on E mount bodies. 

I hope Canon is paying attention, beyond discounting the 1D-C.


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## ksagomonyants (Apr 5, 2014)

12 mp? Foveon or Bayer sensor? It's hard to believe that Sony, which got good reputation because of its high MP sensors, would go back to 12 mp camera


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## Albi86 (Apr 5, 2014)

ksagomonyants said:


> 12 mp? Foveon or Bayer sensor? It's hard to believe that Sony, which got good reputation because of its high MP sensors, would go back to 12 mp camera



I don't think they're going back, but rather in a parallel direction. This camera seems to be based on the opposite concept of the a7r and is targeted at a different market.


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## MintChocs (Apr 5, 2014)

Does this mean we can now shoot at ridiculously high ISOs and throw away the tripod?


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## Lightmaster (Apr 5, 2014)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> Sony A7s. Confirmed 12mp Full Frame sensor and 4k video means 1:1 pixel use (no artifact/binning issues, more accurate color, etc.). Low light should be damn impressive too. Full announcement coming this Sunday (4/6) at NAB.
> 
> And unlike the GH4, a metabones adapter already exists that allows aperture control and IS for EF glass on E mount bodies.
> 
> I hope Canon is paying attention, beyond discounting the 1D-C.



source?

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/


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## ajfotofilmagem (Apr 5, 2014)

The rumors say that 7D mark ii should be a "mini 1Dx" for shooting fast action with lower cost. In this sense, a 12 megapixel sensor (with updated technology) would be perfect for shooting in dark places, and make 4K video too.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 5, 2014)

dilbert said:


> In another thread on this website, there is a lot of posters from this website that are (or at least were!) absolutely certain that 4K wouldn't take off this year and that Canon wouldn't need to include it in their cameras this year. Seems to me that everyone else thinks that now is the right time to be delivering 4K capability.
> 
> If the 7D mark II arrives this year without 4K, Canon will be at the station looking at the caboose as it disappears into the distance...



Apparently 'everyone else' thought it was time for higher MP sensors last year. 'Everyone else' still seems to be sitting in the caboose of the Market Share Express, a train with a big Canon logo on the engine in front.


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## Don Haines (Apr 5, 2014)

dilbert said:


> In another thread on this website, there is a lot of posters from this website that are (or at least were!) absolutely certain that 4K wouldn't take off this year and that Canon wouldn't need to include it in their cameras this year. Seems to me that everyone else thinks that now is the right time to be delivering 4K capability.
> 
> If the 7D mark II arrives this year without 4K, Canon will be at the station looking at the caboose as it disappears into the distance...


That really made me smile... and brings up a mental image of Mr. Canon and Mr. Nikon at the train station filming the departing train in 1080 at 30hz, while on the train, the lovely ladies Miss Sony, Miss Panasonic, Miss GoPro, Miss Red, and a host of others are waving goodbye 

I think I'll go take my GoPro and shoot some 4K video, and when I'm done I'll grab my p/s and try to capture some blue jays in flight at 240hz....


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## weixing (Apr 5, 2014)

Hi,


Don Haines said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > In another thread on this website, there is a lot of posters from this website that are (or at least were!) absolutely certain that 4K wouldn't take off this year and that Canon wouldn't need to include it in their cameras this year. Seems to me that everyone else thinks that now is the right time to be delivering 4K capability.
> ...


 Then they realized they left all the consumers at the station... ;D

Have a nice weekend!


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## Don Haines (Apr 5, 2014)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Don Haines said:
> ...


But then again, sometimes missing the train is a good thing


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## ajfotofilmagem (Apr 5, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> weixing said:
> 
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> 
> ...


Well said. Some manufacturers have lost the train of the financial loss. Anyone remember these trains? 

HD-DVD (murdered by BluRay); 
Card MEMORY STICK; 
D-VHS (believe me, once existed VHS video cassette digital full-hd);
XQD card (was born dead); 
Windows Vista (not even the mother of Bill Gates liked this thing).


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## ajfotofilmagem (Apr 5, 2014)

dilbert said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


I did not say that 4K is a lost train, but nothing indicates that it will be the hegemonic pattern to the end consumer. Perhaps in 2025 there are reliable and affordable media to replace BluRay. The irony is that even the Bluray did not become hegemonic one, and a "surrogate" is now required. The Cinema EOS line, as the name implies, is designed for producers of CINEMA, and the movies in the next decade will still pass down convert to "fit" on BluRay discs.


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## Lawliet (Apr 5, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> I did not say that 4K is a lost train, but nothing indicates that it will be the hegemonic pattern to the end consumer. Perhaps in 2025 there are reliable and affordable media to replace BluRay.



I didn't feel thats much of an factor - you can always downsample to FullHD if media constraints require it - but how much longer the medium will be a major factor?
OTOH increased production cost might be a something to consider -whole production, with the part from sensor to end user being more of a side note-, thats unless one wants the higher res just to reveal previously glossed over and hidden flaws.


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## IMG_0001 (Apr 6, 2014)

The amount of details you can extract of the chroma key backgrounds is incrredible at 4k resolution.

Jokes apart, I second the idea that 4k makes sense for professional videographers either for ultra high def or post production to FHD. However, for consumers, I still doubt that theere is more than bragging rights attachsed tu 4k.


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## Longexposure (Apr 6, 2014)

Hope the "S" stands for stabilised


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## weixing (Apr 6, 2014)

Hi,


dilbert said:


> IMG_0001 said:
> 
> 
> > The amount of details you can extract of the chroma key backgrounds is incrredible at 4k resolution.
> ...


 4K TV is still very expensive at the moment... Hmm... May be we can do a poll to check how many members in CR had a 4K TV, how many intend to get a 4K TV in one year time and what's the maximum $$$ you willing to paid for a TV??

Have a nice day.


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## Dylan777 (Apr 6, 2014)

I'll get one if the "s" has similar AF system as A6000.


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## IMG_0001 (Apr 6, 2014)

dilbert said:


> IMG_0001 said:
> 
> 
> > The amount of details you can extract of the chroma key backgrounds is incrredible at 4k resolution.
> ...



I understand that companies will try to push products ecosystems, but from a practical standpoint, I don't see the benefit of a 4k video of your 5yo's birthday party or of your aunt gardening. I just feel like you need some pretty controlled condition to allow for 4k to produce significant additional details at the shutter speeds allowed in video. If you add the time and computer resources required to edit those videos, it makes even less sense to me. 

As a professional tool, 4k surely has a place. As a consumer product, may be not as sensible a product. Nevertheless, consumers are not often acclaimed for their ability to make sensible decisions... there should be plenty of buyers.

However, i'll be honest and confess that is just my opinion and I'm not a video guru.


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## IMG_0001 (Apr 6, 2014)

dilbert said:


> IMG_0001 said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



If 4k garanteed him a happier b'day, 4k for sure! However, as I said before, I mostly think in the conditions most home videos are filmed, 4k will emphasis oof and motion blur from the shooter (or subject). Personally, I already find making a good home video hard with a dslr at HD res, so I surely am not ready for 4k. But hey, that is just me! 4k lovers, be my guest. That is just my opinion, I don't want to enforce it on anyone, but I feel it makes sense.


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## AvTvM (Apr 7, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> I'll get one if the "s" has similar AF system as A6000.



+1

And in body 6-axis 4-stops IS. 
And they can cut out the video cr*p on my copy.


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## Dylan777 (Apr 7, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll get one if the "s" has similar AF system as A6000.
> ...



No A6000 AF system. However, be able shoot at high ISO got me interested :

I was hoping to see some UWA...dam it


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## sdsr (Apr 7, 2014)

Longexposure said:


> Hope the "S" stands for stabilised



It evidently stands for "sensitivity" (honest - you can read all the details at sonyalpharumors), so please don't say mean things about it.


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## sdsr (Apr 7, 2014)

dilbert said:


> When the 5 year old turns 21 in 16 years time, what would you rather have?
> 4k video or 1080p video of the birthday?



If that's the sort of thing you're going to film with this camera, you should note that, according to sonyalpharumors: "The only bad news is that it doesn’t record 4K on SD card. You will have to use an external recorder." How many people are interested in doing that? (It's not an issue for me as I never shoot videos, unless I hit the wrong button by mistake!) 

The low light possibilities sound intriguing, though - so far there are precisely two Sony FE lenses that I want (and own), so I guess they could have a body each. Sony's body:lens ratio seems a tad off....


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## PVS (Apr 7, 2014)

SonyIAMDISSAPOINT.gif


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## Halfrack (Apr 7, 2014)

While I want to play with 4k for a few specific items, it's not going to drive the industry - unless you've got better than 20/20 vision and a lot of money to spend. Intel may want you to upgrade to 4k, but Comcast may not want it. There are times when you want to pull frames from video, or are going to stabilize the shot in post-production based on cropping down to 1080p, but 4k doesn't belong in our P&S world. 

Oh, and it won't matter how you capture a 5 year olds birthday today, their life is recorded in 720p from an iPhone or such.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Apr 7, 2014)

Halfrack said:


> While I want to play with 4k for a few specific items, it's not going to drive the industry - unless you've got better than 20/20 vision and a lot of money to spend. Intel may want you to upgrade to 4k, but Comcast may not want it. There are times when you want to pull frames from video, or are going to stabilize the shot in post-production based on cropping down to 1080p, but 4k doesn't belong in our P&S world.
> Oh, and it won't matter how you capture a 5 year olds birthday today, their life is recorded in 720p from an iPhone or such.


Agree. Who wants to 4K with high quality today, can buy Canon C500 and cine lenses. 8) Costs too much? No, not a bit expensive for the intended purpose of Cinema equipment. : Want it cheaper? Someday We'll have these cell phone that does 4k video (compressed FU_KING bad). :-X I could use photography with over 22 megapixel in some work. ??? So just buy Nokia Lumia 1020, and will have better images that 5D Mark iii.  Hey, we can already do 4K video with Go Pro.  No kidding: I have no interest in 4K with compression FU_KING bad, and I prefer 1080P with fine compression.


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## Lawliet (Apr 7, 2014)

sdsr said:


> "The only bad news is that it doesn’t record 4K on SD card. You will have to use an external recorder." How many people are interested in doing that?



People with the skill&ambition to make good use of HD/4k do it anyway. Or: on the fly compression of a 4k stream to SD card-friendly data rates leaves you with the same quality as common (&commonly to highly compressed) fHD, but at much larger handling costs.

Separate versions for 50/60Hz...ouch. While it prevents grid flicker, not that I'd know anyone who'd still use susceptible lights w/o genlock, it also keeps me from delivering video in the requested format half of the time.


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## mkabi (Apr 7, 2014)

weixing said:


> 4K TV is still very expensive at the moment... Hmm... May be we can do a poll to check how many members in CR had a 4K TV, how many intend to get a 4K TV in one year time and what's the maximum $$$ you willing to paid for a TV??
> 
> Have a nice day.



See how most people seem to be jumping around this question.
Anyway, let me be the first, I just got my 60 inch FHD TV a few years ago (2-3 years ago to be precise)... so no upgrades for another decade at least. At which point, I hope the first 8K TVs will be showing up.
Come on now, don't be a spoil sport, how many of you guys own a 4K TV? How many are going to be buy one in the next year or two?

Also... how many of the Pro-4K peeps are going to actually buy the Sony a7s?
Or are they going to keep badgering Canon to make a camera similar to the Gh4 and/or a7s?
At this point, even if Canon released something tomorrow with 4K, I don't think the same people that are badgering right now, will buy into it... they will find some fault in it and complain some more.... 
In fact, I don't think they can afford a new camera right now..... they just want something to complain about.


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## Lawliet (Apr 7, 2014)

mkabi said:


> Come on now, don't be a spoil sport, how many of you guys own a 4K TV? How many are going to be buy one in the next year or two?


Considering the availability of 8k sets I wouldn't buy another 4k without a very good reason...


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 7, 2014)

dilbert said:


> If Canon released the 7D Mark II tomorrow with 4K video, I'd jump for joy but the problem is we all know they won't.



Explain again why they should? Because they're scared that the Sony a7S and Panasonic GH4 will outsell the 7DII when it's finally released? : : :


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## Lloyd (Apr 7, 2014)

As I understand 4k, the most interesting feature for 4k would be the ability to zoom into the 4k recording when editing for a 1080p final. For example, let’s say I was shooting a wedding on my own. I could put up a 4k camera in the rear with a wide field of view and a wide depth of field and let it run on its own for the duration of the wedding. I could then shoot close up videos on my 5Diii at various angles with a narrow depth of field of the bride, groom etc. Then when it came time to edit, I could zoom into the 4k as needed to get close-ups since I am only outputting to 1080p. Of course, since I am not a pro, all of this would depend on getting a reasonably priced 4k camera and the ability to record long durations of video on some reasonably priced medium. It is that reasonably priced thing that is probably the rub for me.


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## NormanBates (Apr 7, 2014)

The A7s is great, even without internal 4K.
The footage they have released looks awesome.
Like, this was recoreded internally: http://www.fstopacademy.com/blog/sony-alpha-7s-first-hands-on-shooting-review/

It's basically like a C100, with better DR and with a much better EVF, but without XLR or internal NDs, at less than half the price.

For video, judging by those first clips, it is clearly better than any of the following: 700D, 70D, 7D, 6D, 5D3, 1DX, 1DC, C100, and also C300 if you spend $400 on an external recorder. Make that $2K for a Shogun recorder, and it's heads and shoulders above anything Canon has, except for the C500.

Go here to see what video shooters think about it:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?321965-Rumor-Sony-A7s-will-have-4K-video/page13
I'd say it's at least 80% favorable comments.


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## Niki (Apr 7, 2014)

NormanBates said:


> The A7s is great, even without internal 4K.
> The footage they have released looks awesome.
> Like, this was recoreded internally: http://www.fstopacademy.com/blog/sony-alpha-7s-first-hands-on-shooting-review/
> 
> ...




+1

canon has to step up…for video..this nab has some great cameras


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## Don Haines (Apr 7, 2014)

dilbert said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > See how most people seem to be jumping around this question.
> ...


In the last year, 4K televisions have gone from unheard of to having their own section in the local Best Buy. We can argue about this all we want, but they have become consumer devices. 2K televisions debuted at over $10,000 and now there is a decent selection of them below $1000... 4K televisions have begun the same price dropping trajectory.

The number of devices that shoot 4K is steadily rising... at the moment, most of them that shoot quality 4K rely on an external recording device.... Storage speed appears to be the final hurdle.

and like Dilbert, if the 7D came out tomorrow with 4K I would jump for joy.... but on the other hand, if it came out tomorrow without 4K I would still jump for joy and almost as loudly... I don't expect it for at least another few months and I hope the wait is worth it.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 7, 2014)

How prevalent is the ability (hardware and software) to edit 4K video?


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## wockawocka (Apr 7, 2014)

12mp = lovely pixel density.

Stick a mirror in it and I'm there.


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## Lawliet (Apr 7, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> How prevalent is the ability (hardware and software) to edit 4K video?


Within the life-cycle of the next gen, eg. 1Dx2, 55D4 and such? My cellphone/tablet would probably handle that in terms of processing power. The same for any application that unloads parts of the work into a GPU. Just look what that already did for 3D-rendering and physics simulations!
Adding in the price/capacity development of SSDs makes even the proxies a moot point and ignoring the signs on the horizon would be risque.


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## NormanBates (Apr 8, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> How prevalent is the ability (hardware and software) to edit 4K video?



Nearly any modern computer with a decent graphics card can do it, and using free software too (Resolve).
In any case, the relevant question is: who should care about 4K? And my answer is: nearly nobody. Your eyes can't see the difference, at least not at a realistic eye-to-screen distance.

It looks like the A7s will be my next camera, and I'm not getting the external recorder needed for 4K. I'm getting it for the big sensor, the clean image, the DR, and the codec.
I think of it as a really tiny camera that can give me a slightly better image than a C100, with a bigger sensor, better EVF and higher fps, for less than half the price.

(counting on price and DR to be as expected; those could still go wrong)


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## Don Haines (Apr 8, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> How prevalent is the ability (hardware and software) to edit 4K video?



GoPro just released a FREE program that will do it....


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## NormanBates (Apr 11, 2014)

And this is what's usually called a dealbreaker
NAB 2014 Sony A7S Rolling Shutter Test


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## Rienzphotoz (Apr 11, 2014)

Sony A7s: Low Light Demonstration (ISO 1600 to 409600)


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## mkabi (Apr 12, 2014)

Well, this is the camera to beat in terms of DSLR video.
And, I'm only saying this because they teamed up with Atmos... and Atmos created the Shogun 4K recorder with a 7" screen.

Outright Epic Rig.


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## Lawliet (Apr 12, 2014)

mkabi said:


> Well, this is the camera to beat in terms of DSLR video.



Well, the new Blackmagic also comes with a global shutter & takes the whole host of Canons lenses w/o adapter.
Not to mention the more suitable form factor.


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## mkabi (Apr 12, 2014)

Lawliet said:


> mkabi said:
> 
> 
> > Well, this is the camera to beat in terms of DSLR video.
> ...



I don't know... thats definitely built for TV shows, looks like something thats always going to be on a tripod or dolly... not for handheld, steadycam stuff. I can't even imagine it on a crane....


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## Lawliet (Apr 12, 2014)

mkabi said:


> not for handheld, steadycam stuff. I can't even imagine it on a crane....



Its highly modular - with that large cine-zoom and all the potentially useful external stuff it gets huge. But so would a A7.
The camera itself plus a photo-prime, w/o external monitoring&remote control(or that on a long tether) and you're back in the man portable ballpark. How global shutter for movement vs. higher payload capacity turns out for drone usage might be interesting, at least for 1080, in 2160 its much closer again.


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