# Here are the full Canon EOS R specifications



## canonnews (Sep 2, 2018)

> Here are the full specifications for the upcoming Canon EOS R full frame mirrorless camera taken from an official Canon PDF that was posted by Nokishita.
> You can download and view the original Canon PDF here.
> *Canon EOS R Specifications Summary: *(Google translated)
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## harth (Sep 2, 2018)

Eagerly waiting to see what the price tag is. (Not sure if it'll matter though... I'm hyped)


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 2, 2018)

I’m eagerly awaiting definition of “cross” in the context of OSPDAF.


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## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

The af implementation is crazy...
But how do you select all those points without joystick?
No af-linked spot meterin? .. typical canon

Need to know:
Evf pixels/lag
Buffer
4k crop
Anything else?


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## ethermine (Sep 2, 2018)

Impressive. This is just the beginning of this new chapter for Canon, too. The next decade is going to be fun.


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## canonnews (Sep 2, 2018)

I'm trying to post this correctly. I think CR has gone to sleep. I can't get the PDF displaying right, but it's linked to download if you want to see all the specs


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## Isaacheus (Sep 2, 2018)

What's the AF ev for the 5dmk4, -3 with a 2.8 lens? 

This is -6 with a 1.2, so is that actually better or is it about the same in practice?


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## Adelino (Sep 2, 2018)

ethermine said:


> Impressive. This is just the beginning of this new chapter for Canon, too. The next decade is going to be fun.


Yes impressive, no IBIS though? Is that Canon being stubborn about lens IS as the best?


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## Ooodavid (Sep 2, 2018)

Is there mention of dual cards or single SD card?


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## CanonGrunt (Sep 2, 2018)

Do we have any mention of wether the 4k video is Full Frame, Super 35, or some other stupid crop? @Canon Rumors Guy If it is the crop that's on the 5D MK IV that would take the wind out of the sails a little bit. Still a very impressive camera overall.


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## canonnews (Sep 2, 2018)

CanonGrunt said:


> Do we have any mention of wether the 4k video is Full Frame, Super 35, or some other stupid crop? @Canon Rumors Guy If it is the crop that's on the 5D MK IV that would take the wind out of the sails a little bit. Still a very impressive camera overall.


no mention in the PDF.


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## canonnews (Sep 2, 2018)

Ooodavid said:


> Is there mention of dual cards or single SD card?


seems to indicate a single card.


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## Timedog (Sep 2, 2018)

No IBIS. UHS-1??? No 1080p/120fps. No mention of BSI or improved sensor tech. Ugh. Disappointing. 

Will still instabuy if it's actually ~2 grand like the initial rumor. 

The AF points number sounds insane, but we'll have to see what that number actually means in reality.


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## miketcool (Sep 2, 2018)

Knew that was a touch bar! Finally a 21st century upgrade!


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## canonnews (Sep 2, 2018)

miketcool said:


> Knew that was a touch bar! Finally a 21st century upgrade!



it's kind of cool  I can't wait to actually try it in the field.


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## canonnews (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> The af implementation is crazy...
> But how do you select all those points without joystick?
> No af-linked spot meterin? .. typical canon
> 
> ...


I totally gapped the buffer.

RAW 34 shot buffer, C-RAW 61, DP-RAW + C-RAW: 150

That's it. I'm off to bed. You can download the PDF and read the Canon USA spec sheet now


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## SaP34US (Sep 2, 2018)

The EOS R is compatable with both UHS-I and UHD-II SD cards. I think it is a single card slot. How many dots is the EVF is that included in the specs and did I just miss it?


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## scrup (Sep 2, 2018)

No IS, No Dual Slots, No Eye AF.
On the positive side, specs indicate <2k price.

The 1.6 is interesting. Does it imply EF-M support or is it just for EF-S lenses which would be implied anyway since they are DSLR lenses and not difficult to implement. EF-M would require some engineering for the 2MM flange gap difference.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 2, 2018)

scrup said:


> No IS, No Dual Slots, No Eye AF.
> On the positive side, specs indicate <2k price.


So do the Z6 specs, and yet...


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## Fwiler (Sep 2, 2018)

No IBIS is sad, but if those lens selections are true, I won't care.


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

Not sure if this is me getting confused... Under recording media it does not say UHS II but it says "• High-speed writing is supported when a UHS-I compatible SD card is used"

Under the Maximum burst it has this "High-speed (UHS-II)" Per that tabular column RAW buffer seems to be 47 with an UHS II card.


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## miketcool (Sep 2, 2018)

This will become my backup and timelapse body in the field to my 5DMKIV or 5DS. When the C-Log FF mirrorless lands, I’ll promote it to primary. Really looking forward to shooting on this. Everyone obsesses about the 4K specs until they need to edit high quality files in their workflow.


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## KT (Sep 2, 2018)

miketcool said:


> Knew that was a touch bar! Finally a 21st century upgrade!


It would have been awesome if that gizmo could be assigned to control the AF point selection. That would have more than adequately made up for the lack of AF joystick. Now, you'll just have to trust the sensor to read out faces and focus on the right one with little outside help.


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## Fwiler (Sep 2, 2018)

KT said:


> It would have been awesome if that gizmo could be assigned to control the AF point selection. That would have more than adequately made up for the lack of AF joystick. Now, you'll just have to trust the sensor to read out faces and focus on the right one with little outside help.


I can't tell from spec sheet, but it could have selection from touch screen which imo is much faster and better for selecting focus points compared to a joystick.


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## Canedo (Sep 2, 2018)

Canon did it again on purpose, not FHD 1080 @ 120fps ?? Why?


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## Teknon (Sep 2, 2018)

Fwiler said:


> No IBIS is sad, but if those lens selections are true, I won't care.



From other reviews I've read, cameras (eg Olympus) with IBIS seem to do a better job at stabilising hand held movie shooting.


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## slclick (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> The af implementation is crazy...
> But how do you select all those points without joystick?
> No af-linked spot meterin? .. typical canon
> 
> ...


touch and drag


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## JordanRushing (Sep 2, 2018)

Canedo said:


> Canon did it again on purpose, not FHD 1080 @ 120fps ?? Why?


Yup. It’s sadly a no go for me dawg. No ibis, no [email protected], no dual cards. It has some nice features, but it’s not worth me upgrading from my T7i. I’m going to either wait for the more professional body in the next 6 months, so probably go to the A7iii. Sigh, and I really wanted to stay with Canon


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## roo72 (Sep 2, 2018)

So they took a Canon 6D2, ripped out the mirror and tweaked it a little bit. Looks OK but it's definitely not revolutionary, just another incremental upgrade. I don't have a problem with a single card slot (99.999% of users don't need more either) but am a little disappointing not to see IBIS. Don't think I will be in a hurry to upgrade my current bodies to this one - doesn't really offer enough to warrant an upgrade from the last two generations of their DSLRs but it's a pretty decent camera in its own right and will sell well.


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## sfericean (Sep 2, 2018)

And just like that, everyone forgot about the 90D (sorry had to say it..LOL..)


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## LSXPhotog (Sep 2, 2018)

If this camera comes in at $2200 or less, it's going to be a massive hit with very little room for criticisms at this price point. The lack of dual cards is a bummer, as I had already decided I would sell my 5D4 to fund this switch, but I don't think I can risk that with the amount of weddings and critical work I do in the publishing industry.

But I'm happy to see it supports UHS-II and has a pretty deep buffer... although the continuous shooting with AF priority is only 3fps and without AF priority (misses a LOT on the M5 and M50 in this mode) is 5fps...so this isn't going to even be an optional idea as a sports camera.

Battery life is what I expected. Real world we will see around 500-600 shots and maybe 1000-1200 with a grip.

Lack of in body IS is certainly a bummer and I don't know why eye AF would be included on the M50, then apparently absent from this camera. This was the only Sony feature I truly envied. Oh well...I guess I have to do the work and not the camera.

I will be buying this for sure and am excited to see the next several bodies that come down the line.

Is the high resolution body going to be called EOS RR or EOS RSR? LOL


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## Isaacheus (Sep 2, 2018)

roo72 said:


> So they took a Canon 6D2, ripped out the mirror and tweaked it a little bit. Looks OK but it's definitely not revolutionary, just another incremental upgrade. I don't have a problem with a single card slot (99.999% of users don't need more either) but am a little disappointing not to see IBIS. Don't think I will be in a hurry to upgrade my current bodies to this one - doesn't really offer enough to warrant an upgrade from the last two generations of their DSLRs but it's a pretty decent camera in its own right and will sell well.



Yeah, looks like the a7 3 and z6 competition, but with higher mps. Keen to see what improvements are in the sensor compared to the 5dmk4.


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## Tompie913 (Sep 2, 2018)

That's a LOT of AF points. I have to think though that at that point it's a bit of diminishing returns, but this thing may be the new king of AF nonetheless. Battery life is a bit disappointing though slightly better than the Nikon Z and both will probably be sufficient in the real world anyway.

BUT, if it is indeed a single SD card, that is very disappointing indeed. Nikon at least has the excuse of the larger XQD cards as well as the promise of extremely fast CFExpress cards. A single SD is really, really underwhelming for a mid-to-high-end camera in 2018.

Otherwise, it looks like they've about achieved parity with the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6. Not quite the power play that I thought they might pull.


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

Some facts from PDF

Has Electronic shutter
There is a 1.6x crop mode to use EF-S lenses (Never imagined Canon would let people use the EF-S lenses on a full frame MILC)
4K is 3840x2160
codec: MPEG-4 AVC/H.264
AA filter
No 1080p 120fps
720p 120fps limited to 7:29 minutes
Sounds like USB charging is only allowed with USB Power Adapter PD-E1 (It says this "In-camera charging: although it is compatible with USB Type-C (5V/1.5A) equivalent, do not charge the camera other than with the USB Power Adapter PD-E1")

Unknowns at this point
Price
EVF resolution
IBIS - most likely will not be there
eye AF - most likely it will not be there
Electronic shutter speed
Flash sync speed
4k crop factor
C-log
Focus peaking
Zebras
HDMI output specs

Highlight Alert: The white areas with no image data will blink. Anyone know what that is?


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## Tompie913 (Sep 2, 2018)

I just realized the apparent lack of IBIS! That is probably a dealbreaker for me.


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## DanCarr (Sep 2, 2018)

Wow those continuous shooting speeds are a huge disappointment. Here's hoping for an EOS Rx pretty soon...


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## Isaacheus (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Highlight Alert: The white areas with no image data will blink. Is that Zebra or similar?



That might be similar to the current set up where it blinks during the review, not as useful as zebras as it doesn't help during shooting, only in chimping. Certainly good to have at minimum


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## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

Canedo said:


> Canon did it again on purpose, not FHD 1080 @ 120fps ?? Why?



Not really on purpose. As I suspected they haven't been able to increase their sensors' readout speed at this price point. This is why you get this 720p only 120 fps spec, the 3fps with focus priority tracking, etc.
As a result, we may also get the following : no live view feed in continuous drive mode (we'll only see a slideshow of the previous pictures taken), very slow scan time in fully electronic shutter, 12 bit raw in some continuous modes, and, I'm afraid : cropped 4K, or FF 4K with line skipping and severe rolling shutter.
On the plus side though this gives me very strong M50 vibes in terms of pricing strategy. Which will then makes the launch lenses nonsensical, at least as far as the initial R consumers are concerned, as there's only one non L lens.


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> That might be similar to the current set up where it blinks during the review, not as useful as zebras as it doesn't help during shooting, only in chimping. Certainly good to have at minimum



Got it thanks


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## michaelichiro (Sep 2, 2018)

omg no IBIS.


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## CanoKnight (Sep 2, 2018)

canonnews said:


> full HD 60p, HD 120p



When I first saw the photo this morning I was shocked by how FUGLY this camera looked from the front. The original 5D and the 5D2 had an aesthetic quality about them. The 7D and 7D2 were also decent looking. But this is shockingly fugly. But still I thought .. maybe its beauty is in the inside.

Then this -- "full HD 60p, HD 120p". Now what in **** does that mean ? It means forget 180p, Canon isn't even going to give you 120p at 1080 because they have their precious little cinemaEOS to look out for. So once again I say, screw Canon. They are done. And now with the announcement of an upcoming FF Panasonic we are about to enter a new benchmark in video quality, all while Canon is recycling 10 year old video technology. What a joke.


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

So I'll say it. DPRAW + 8 fps seals it. EOS R is (kinda) a mirrorless 5D4.

If this is $2000, I'd be completely stunned.

- A


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## HAL 9000 Mark II (Sep 2, 2018)

Not very promising imo.. no mention of IBIS, no mention of dual card slots, no 1080p at 120fps, no 4K at 60fps, 370 CIPA rating and 0.71x EVF magnification is quite low compared to Sony Mark III bodies.


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Now that we have a more complete picture (only 2nd-tier sort of specs haven't been nailed down), let's consider where we are.

In really broad strokes, what the Z7 is to the D850, EOS R is to the 5D4. 

At a really high level / superficial sort of take, both new mirrorless rigs are somewhat clones of 'better' (i.e. $3k+) price point cameras in FF... with some strings attached.

The Nikon Z7 and EOS R both:

Went thin + adaptor


Have impressive top line 'horsepower specs' (45x9 and 30x8 respectively)


See the throughput drop somewhat dramatically in somewhat challenging conditions (45x5.5 for AE or 14 bit RAW, 30x5 for Servo AF -- which will likely be your AF choice if shooting at full burst)


Offer one card only


Lack eye AF


Both are offering (or announcing the development of) some Ferrari-like super lenses for the new mount
And each offers a nice treat -- the Nikon gets IBIS, and Canon gets that disturbingly good low light AF claim.

- A


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## jasienicki (Sep 2, 2018)

canonnews said:


> Continue reading...



Hi there, recommended ISO settings in video mode (25k in FHD vs 12k in 4K) suggest there is a CROP in 4K. 

My hypothedis comes from hands-on shooting experience with 5Dm4 4K and 5Dm3 ML RAW crop mode. In both cases it takes a full stop down in ISO to get similar noise levels vs. no crop.


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## MartinF. (Sep 2, 2018)

I am still frustrated about the need for an EF adaptor. I am trying to think positive on drop in filters, and so, but damn I would have preferred a EF mount, and then of course accept, that newer lenses would have better and smarter functions (related to more contacts and different protocol) when mounted on a "R-series" than on my 6D.

And will Canon come up with a RF to EF mount? Will I be able to by new RF lenses and mount them on my 6D (with an adaptor...)

I simply hate the thought that my EF collection and my 6D will die the same way my Canon AE1P and my Canon and Tamron lenses with FD mount did during the late 80's when EF mount was taking over.

I still have a fragile hope that Canon will announce some more (positive) on the future for the EF mount and EF lenses.


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

scrup said:


> No IS, No Dual Slots, No Eye AF.
> On the positive side, specs indicate <2k price.




5D4 sensor, DPRAW, 8 fps, and that filthy -6 EV focusing would disagree with that.

You can read this as a nerfed / limited version of the 5D4 on some specs, or you can read it as a 5D4 with a tilty-flippy, better lowlight focusing and a silent shutter.

I think they'll pull a Z7 here and ask for corresponding SLR price, which would be the 5D4's current asking of $3,099. Possibly less -- but not too much less -- as they'll make some money back on folks needing to buy RF lenses (which a lot of regular EF body buyers don't have to do each time they upgrade).

No Eye AF and no IBIS can come with a 2nd gen or larger spiffier body. But I'd be stunned at Canon asking for only $2k here. Don't compare to Sony. That's not how it works. Compare to Canon. For those horsepower specs, Canon asks for $3099 today.

- A


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## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> So I'll say it. DPRAW + 8 fps seals it. EOS R is (kinda) a mirrorless 5D4.
> 
> If this is $2000, I'd be completely stunned.
> 
> - A


 
It's 5fps max with AF, and in fact 3fps max in focus priority. Most likely you won't have a live view feed in continuous drive. You'll get cropped 4K, or 4K with severe line skipping and massive rolling shutter. The EVF has a lower magnification than comparable bodies and I suspect that the resolution will be lower than the Z. 

That's a very, very solidly sub $2000 body given the competition right now. 

Canon has a precedent for releasing a cheap, compromised, but outstanding camera for the price : the M50, at least at its ultra-competitive European launch price of €570. Pricing may very well be Canon's trump card here.


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## Act444 (Sep 2, 2018)

Gonna be a very interesting next few years to see what happens...I wonder if this is truly the beginning of the end of the DSLR era (or whether DSLR will stick around as the premier tool for pros/sports shooters)

That said - for me to be PERSONALLY interested in this camera, I was looking for two things: 1) removal of AA filter from sensor, 2)in-body stabilization. Looks like 1) is a no-go from the PDF, can't find anything on 2) but seems like that's a feature that would be touted if it indeed had it. Dealbreakers? Too early to say. But right now I see no advantage over 5D4/5DSR, other than perhaps a slightly smaller size. The price will make or break it, IMO...under 2K, this thing could turn heads (but I see a price closer to that of the 5D4 if I'm honest).

Lenses - that 28-70 f2 is certainly VERY intriguing, though...will they consider making an EF version of that lens??


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## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

jasienicki said:


> Hi there, recommended ISO settings in video mode (25k in FHD vs 12k in 4K) suggest there is a CROP in 4K.
> 
> My hypothedis comes from hands-on shooting experience with 5Dm4 4K and 5Dm3 ML RAW crop mode. In both cases it takes a full stop down in ISO to get similar noise levels vs. no crop.



Good observation. I was trying to find clues whether 4K would be cropped or not and this can be added to the list of increasingly strong clues .


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Oh how the worm turns from yesterday's orgy of info. People were elated then.

I think we've come back down to earth a bit tonight:

No IBIS (by omission)
No Eye AF (ditto, but implied above by Canon News Guy)
Single card (again, not stated but implied)
Video folks don't have all the details yet, but 1080x120 didn't materialize
Battery life is better than Nikon but a big gap behind Sony
8 fps... Unless you want to shoot burst with Servo AF 
EOS R is probably going to be great, but it you had a wishlist for specs (that wasn't bats-- unreasonable), at least one of your hopes probably just got dashed tonight. 

But I'll reiterate: You can read this negatively as *a nerfed or (more likely) hard-to-completely-deliver-in-mirrorless version of the 5D4* on some specs, or you can read it positively as *a 5D4 with a tilty-flippy, better lowlight focusing and a silent shutter*. 

I choose the latter, but I brace for impact on price. Nikon just asked for full asking of the D850 for the Z7, and Canon may do the same vs. the 5D4.

- A


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## oXo_se (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> So I'll say it. DPRAW + 8 fps seals it. EOS R is (kinda) a mirrorless 5D4.
> 
> If this is $2000, I'd be completely stunned.
> 
> - A


What I can see this is a mirrorless replacement for 6D


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> And will Canon come up with a RF to EF mount? Will I be able to by new RF lenses and mount them on my 6D (with an adaptor...)




No. Not going to happen. RF lenses resolve to a shorter flange distance. 



MartinF. said:


> I simply hate the thought that my EF collection and my 6D will die the same way my Canon AE1P and my Canon and Tamron lenses with FD mount did during the late 80's when EF mount was taking over.



I'm just not buying any fatalistic takes on EF. EF is not going anywhere! Canon is *just launching* this new mount and will take a decade to get it where it needs to be to stand alone from EF. Over that time, Canon will continue to refresh EF glass. 

- A


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Not sure if this is me getting confused... Under recording media it does not say UHS II but it says "• High-speed writing is supported when a UHS-I compatible SD card is used"
> 
> Under the Maximum burst it has this "High-speed (UHS-II)" Per that tabular column RAW buffer seems to be 47 with an UHS II card.




That obliterates the Z7, which is around 18-20 full RAW if I recall. Those are 45 MP files of course, but 47 x 30 >> 20 x 45. Canon did well here.

- A


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## CanoKnight (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Nikon just asked for full asking of the D850 for the Z7
> 
> - A



Like Ken Rockwell said, the difference between the z7 and z6 is not meaningful. I don't think Nikon actually intends to sell a lot of Z7. Its purpose is to steer customers toward the Z6 ( Z7 is a decoy model for those familiar with the concept of decoy pricing.)


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## drob (Sep 2, 2018)

As previously mentioned, there was supposed to be a 2nd mirrorless sometime in the near future also. So that might offer the IBIS, Eye AF, 2nd card slot etc etc left out of this "entry" level full frame mirrorless.


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## Act444 (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I think we've come back down to earth a bit tonight:
> 
> No IBIS (by omission)
> No Eye AF (ditto, but implied above by Canon News Guy)
> ...



I should (and will) reserve judgment until a) an announcement is made and we get a price and b) I've had a chance to actually hold and use the camera.


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

roo72 said:


> So they took a Canon 6D2, ripped out the mirror and tweaked it a little bit. Looks OK but it's definitely not revolutionary, just another incremental upgrade. I don't have a problem with a single card slot (99.999% of users don't need more either) but am a little disappointing not to see IBIS. Don't think I will be in a hurry to upgrade my current bodies to this one - doesn't really offer enough to warrant an upgrade from the last two generations of their DSLRs but it's a pretty decent camera in its own right and will sell well.




It's not a 6D2 at all other than having a tilty-flippy and one card.

6D2 doesn't have a 30 MP (presumably on-chip ADC) sensor
6D2 doesn't have burst higher than 6.5 fps
6D2 doesn't have DPRAW
6D2 doesn't have 4K

You know what does? *A 5D4.* 

- A


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Yeah, looks like the a7 3 and z6 competition, but with higher mps. Keen to see what improvements are in the sensor compared to the 5dmk4.




Everyone must have $2k locked in the brain as the surefire 'must' that will happen -- that's the only way I can rationalize people saying that a camera with a lot of 5D4 spec/features is aimed at the Z6 and A7 III.

- A


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## ethermine (Sep 2, 2018)

At this point, I’m just waiting to see the quality of photos this thing is going to produce. If they’re anything like what the 5DIV is putting out, and the price is somewhat reasonable, then I’d genuinely consider it to compliment my 5DIVs. Based on reading the specs from the PDF alone, I might be able to rely on the new mirrorless to attain the images I seek to get even more efficiently, and discreetly.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 2, 2018)

canonnews said:


> Continue reading...



Tempting at $750 ? 

Not sure what price this has to sell at to compete with the Sony A7 III but without a native EF mount its going to have to be lower.

Adapters are a real pain if you want to switch through a collection of lenses, some with adapters and others without.

If a Canon user has to start again with a whole new range of native lenses then the switch to Sony is a realistic option now as there's little lock in.

The camera doesn't look any more beautiful than any other ... not exactly the iPhone X of its class ...

It will be very interesting to see how it fares in a very competitive marketplace ...


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## Talys (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> So I'll say it. DPRAW + 8 fps seals it. EOS R is (kinda) a mirrorless 5D4.
> 
> If this is $2000, I'd be completely stunned.
> 
> - A


Me too, though it's only 5FPS with AI Servo AF (which is still pretty great at that price point).


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## Rubz (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> It's not a 6D2 at all other than having a tilty-flippy and one card.
> 
> 6D2 doesn't have a 30 MP (presumably on-chip ADC) sensor
> 6D2 doesn't have burst higher than 6.5 fps
> ...


Yeah, sadly. A 2 year old 5d4. No IBIS, no 120f at 1080p, no dual card slots, shitty battery life, recycled sensor. I regret to have waited so long for this ancient garbage. These specs put this camera below a73 And below Z7, in form and function. Enjoy your touchbar though...


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## memoriaphoto (Sep 2, 2018)

AA filter on sensor. Hmm. That was a surprise. I was expecting it to be gone. Is there a reason for that these days? Does anyone else have it on their ML cameras?


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## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> It's not a 6D2 at all other than having a tilty-flippy and one card.
> 
> 6D2 doesn't have a 30 MP (presumably on-chip ADC) sensor
> 6D2 doesn't have burst higher than 6.5 fps
> ...



I don't understand this reasoning at all. If I were to apply that logic I could say that : 
The M50 has on chip ADC
The M50 has a burst mode higher than 6.5 fps
DPRAW is software so the M50 could have it . 
The M50 has 4K
The R's battery life is only slightly higher than the M50 
Etc, etc...
In a way you could say that it's a FF M50 with an EF grip and more dials and buttons . 

We'll know soon enough how Canon will price this thing anyway. You're right that Canon doesn't always look elsewhere as a reference to set their prices (if they did the R would easily be a sub $2000 body), but Canon has just as much a habit of overpricing stuff as underpricing it (as the M50 or most of their recent lens releases suggest), so there is quite a lot of unpredictability here.


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## bhf3737 (Sep 2, 2018)

"Auto Focus range: EV – 6 to 18 (23 ° C at room temperature · ISO 100 with F1.2 lens)"

Just a question about AF up to -6EV which is a very desirable feature of the R camera.
How better is this rating compared to 5D4 which was -3EV with F2.8? (BTW. AF on 5D4 has been excellent in low light)
Does it mean that 5D4 has -6 EV at 3 stops lower, which is F1? and EOS R has -6 EV at F1.2? so overall, a bit (2/3 stop or so) better than 5D4?


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

memoriaphoto said:


> AA filter on sensor. Hmm. That was a surprise. I was expecting it to be gone. Is there a reason for that these days? Does anyone else have it on their ML cameras?



I guess Sony A9 has AA filter. Reason is moire. I would expect a high resolution 5DsR equivalent Canon mirrorless with out AA filter. I also hoped Canon would do away with AA filter on this but they did not.


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## Romz26 (Sep 2, 2018)

looks like a great upgrade from my aging but great 7d. I will miss the big dial in the back tho.

What the heck is up with all those af points though? Did they make every pixel an af point?


----------



## Aglet (Sep 2, 2018)

Canon likely had a few options available to produce but, like typical Canon, holds a bit short on the feature list because, you know, they'll sell them anyway and then they can dribble out updates and upgrades for years.

Since Nikon tipped their Zs out with an OK but not exactly drool-worthy feature set or performance there's no reason for Canon to do much better than a "me-too" product. I doubt we'll see much improvement in FF ML until things get a bit more serious in round 2.

In that regard, Sony is going to continue to lead the pack for now but Panasonic just might leap past Nikon _and_ Canon in some respects, likely pro video chops.

Hopefully Olympus will do the same with their mystery ship in early 2019 tho they may have to spill some leaks to keep all the spotlights from shifting elsewhere.


----------



## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> "Auto Focus range: EV – 6 to 18 (23 ° C at room temperature · ISO 100 with F1.2 lens)"
> 
> Just a question about AF up to -6EV which is a very desirable feature of the R camera.
> How better is this rating compared to 5D4 which was -3EV with F2.8? (BTW. AF on 5D4 has been excellent in low light)
> Does it mean that 5D4 has -6 EV at 3 stops lower, which is F1? and EOS R has -6 EV at F1.2? so overall, a bit (2/3 stop or so) better than 5D4?



The 5DIV's AF -3EV / f2.8 rating concerns its PDAF sensor (ie what you use when shooting through the viewfinder). The R's -6 EV concerns its on-sensor AF (similar to the 5D IV's AF in Liveview). Because they operate in such different ways it's best not to compare them directly. Besides those EV numbers don't mean much in practice. I've had camera with more conservative ratings that I found more reliable in low light than cameras with more ambitious ones. Proof will be in the actual pudding !


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## Tangent (Sep 2, 2018)

Now that the excitement is starting to settle, the reality hits home -- whether I get this will depend on cost of the body and lenses and adapters (of course), DR of the sensor (not to be forgotten), optical quality of the two lenses I would be interested in initially (RF35 1.8 and RF24-105), initial experiences and reviews, including any first wave problems; how it would fit into my shooting needs.... in other words, golly it's nifty, but I'm still going to evaluate it using the usual real-world criteria.

One thing Canon has done with this release is make it less likely for me to jump ship for Sony or Nikon. However, a fail in DR might signal to me that it is time to move on after all.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> We'll know soon enough how Canon will price this thing anyway. You're right that Canon doesn't always look elsewhere as a reference to set their prices (if they did the R would easily be a sub $2000 body), but Canon has just as much a habit of overpricing stuff as underpricing it (as the M50 or most of their recent lens releases suggest), so there is quite a lot of unpredictability here.




Don't get me wrong, Canon may shock me and offer a $2k rig here. It's a hybrid of a 6D2 and 5D4, but Canon historically doesn't dole out the FF sensor goodness on the cheap. They protect the price of cameras that have the good stuff.

If you could get a 5D4 sensor and image quality and a tilty-flippy for $2k instead of the $3099 5D4 asking price, I'd imagine Canon would lose a lot of 5D4 sales.

_Perhaps_ that's okay if everyone buys 2-3 new RF lenses, though. That might cover giving these bodies away at a much lower margin. We'll see.

- A


----------



## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

Romz26 said:


> What the heck is up with all those af points though? Did they make every pixel an af point?



Mirrorless / Liveview AF points are a software construct mostly. The same camera could have 200 or 400 software AF points depending on how the algorithms are implemented, the UI, what the manufacturer wants to do, etc. It means strictly nothing in terms of AF performances. 5000+ AF points would actually be a UI disaster, so I don't think that we'll be able to directly interact with all those software AF points. 

On the hardware side, Canon's DPAF is exactly that : every single pixel can act both as a phase detection sensor, and as an actual image pixel. It doesn't mean that 1 pixel = 1 af point, as you'd then have 30 millions AF points .


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## suteren (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> It's not a 6D2 at all other than having a tilty-flippy and one card.
> 
> 6D2 doesn't have a 30 MP (presumably on-chip ADC) sensor
> 6D2 doesn't have burst higher than 6.5 fps
> ...



so, they basically took a two year old camera and made it smaller. and the battery life is worse. personally, I don't mind the lack of IBIS, electronic stabilisation would be great for video (i didn't saw this in the specs). But the 1080/60 is just a disgrace, and if the 4k is cropped or crippled with line skipping, that would be just dandy. the "8fps" is basically useless without continuous af. the omission of eye af is definitely disrespectful. The $600 m50 has it. single card? not really something that i need in this kind of body, but it is just so annoying. 

and i was not expecting miracle features from canon. just something they already have implemented in lower end bodies (eye af and electronic stabilisation), with 2018 refreshment of the video features (4k30 and 1080p120).

canon pulled a canon again.


----------



## Isaacheus (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Everyone must have $2k locked in the brain as the surefire 'must' that will happen -- that's the only way I can rationalize people saying that a camera with a lot of 5D4 spec/features is aimed at the Z6 and A7 III.
> 
> - A



I might just be being too optimistic but I still think this is more a $2k (maybe $2.5?) level spec, with the higher MPs but lower fps. If this is Canons higher spec model, then the lack of dual cards, the lower fps with af and the somewhat unchanged (to be confirmed?) video specs from the 5dmk4 are a little disappointing.


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## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Don't get me wrong, Canon may shock me and offer a $2k rig here. It's a hybrid of a 6D2 and 5D4, but Canon historically doesn't dole out the FF sensor goodness on the cheap. They protect the price of cameras that have the good stuff.
> 
> If you could get a 5D4 sensor and image quality and a tilty-flippy for $2k instead of the $3099 5D4 asking price, I'd imagine Canon would lose a lot of 5D4 sales.
> 
> ...



I think that you're about to be even more shocked if Canon adopts the M50's pricing strategy. The M50 killed the sales of the M5 (which was more than 50% more expensive in Europe), and is probably killing the sales of most of Canon's DSLRs in the €500 range as well.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Canon has precedents for both outrageously overpricing stuff, but also insanely undercutting the competition and its own products, so it could go both ways.

Well actually, given what the R is shaping up to be, it doesn't matter how much Canon asks for it at launch, it's a sub $2000 body if not lower by next spring at worst. 

The 5DIV is largely "protected" right now by its effective fps rate with AF, its longer battery life, its field-tested usability, its two card slots, etc. I think that it will be just fine. The 6DII may be hit harder, but that's what it deserves anyway. Also what matters is how much Canon gets per body. The R is looking like a very simple camera to make and assemble. No IBIS, a non ambitious sensor derived from what Canon was making a few years ago, etc... it looks like easy peasy for Canon's outstanding manufacturing capabilities. I'm expecting the degree of automation for making that body to be exceptionally high.


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## Talys (Sep 2, 2018)

Act444 said:


> I should (and will) reserve judgment until a) an announcement is made and we get a price and b) I've had a chance to actually hold and use the camera.


(b) is very important to me. If I just wanted to get a perfect camera on paper, a Sony would knock it out of the ballpark, but based on my own experience, I far prefer using my lowly 6D2. It will boil down to whether the new Canon mirrorless is fun to use and is a competent a camera in my hands doing the type of photography I like. If I enjoy it and it takes good pictures, the price point is an unlikely obstacle; the bigger issue for me would be how many RF lenses to buy and which to just keep as EF -- not so much at launch, but as they trickle out. 

I really hate lens adapters, though how well RF lenses actually work matter a lot to me. For example, if I grab the focus ring and twist, does work or feel anything like ring USM?). And, having a control ring would be pretty cool -- one thing I do enjoy about Sony GM lenses is the programmable control button on the lens.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> It's not a 6D2 at all other than having a tilty-flippy and one card.
> 
> 6D2 doesn't have a 30 MP (presumably on-chip ADC) sensor
> 6D2 doesn't have burst higher than 6.5 fps
> ...



I also initially thought the EOS R will correspond to 5D4. Now I feel it'll be like 6D2 but upgraded, and there will be another higher end model to serve as a mixture of 5D4 and 5DSr. If they allow to mount EF-S glass on it, it'll be another indication it's an advanced juicy model for those who upgrade from crops, not those who're looking to upgrade from 5D4.

Dual card slot to me is a borderline between pro/semipro and enthusiast level cameras from Canon.

I thought I'd upgrade my 5D4 to this new R thing, but probably I'll wait for the higher end version.The lack of IBIS alone would've been bearable, but no IBIS and no dual card slot make the new camera a lower grade than 5D4.


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## traveller (Sep 2, 2018)

Okay, I’ll bite now! I understand that (to quote Roger Cicala of Lensrentals) “expectations are a down payment on disappointment”, but for me the big issues are the 0.71x magnification of the EVF and the lack of a joystick to move the AF point. 

Whilst we don’t know the resolution of the EVF, 0.71x would be by far the smallest of all the current full frame EVFs. If the EVF of the EOS R is only 0.71x (cf 0.78x on the gen3 Sonys and 0.8x on the Nikon Zs), does this also imply that it will also be lower resolution? If I’m going to be persuaded to part with my pentaprism viewfinder, I want to do it for the best possible EVF experience. Sorry Canon, not nearly good enough in 2018. 

My other big EOS R gripe is the lack of a quick way to move the AF point when wearing gloves. Touch screens are fine, but I don’t want to have to take my gloves off in winter to use them (or the “touch bar”). I don’t think that the old fashioned “press af select and whirl the two control wheels” method will be very effective with “5,655 af points”. 

Oh, and 5fps with af tracking is nothing special with 30MP resolution in late 2018. 

Of course, I’m moaning about a camera that is not yet announced, no one (that’s talking) has actually touched and of which we don’t know the price. If it is a sub-2000k body, then most of my gripes go away....


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## canonic (Sep 2, 2018)

> 4k up to a 480Mbps bitrate (no mention of bit depth)



Doesn't this means that we are talking here about 10bit 4:2:2 video???


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## canonic (Sep 2, 2018)

> Dust Delete Data acquisition and appending
> • The coordinates of the dust adhering to the low-pass filter are detec ted by a test shot
> and appended to subsequent images.
> • The dust coordinate data appended to the image is used by the provided sof t ware to
> automatically erase the dust spots.



Isn't this a new feature?!


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## DanCarr (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> So I'll say it. DPRAW + 8 fps seals it. EOS R is (kinda) a mirrorless 5D4.
> 
> If this is $2000, I'd be completely stunned.
> 
> - A



No, it's 8FPS with one-shot AF. If you use AI-servo it's 5fps at most in release priority (with a laundry list of options that will slow that down) and a paltry 3fps in tracking priority mode. This is a significant difference to a 5D Mark IV. To me that kind of difference in continuous shooting speed really thins out the number of people this camera will be good for. There's lots of people who use the 5D4 for sports and wildlife (myself included) because it actually walks a nice line between speed and file resolution. With those kinds of slow continuous speeds on the EOS R, there's no way I can use it to replace a 5D4. Not sure I'd even carry it as a backup!


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## ZepGori (Sep 2, 2018)

I would say thank you to CanonRumors (and insider Nokishita-san obviously) about these important news.
So we can understand better what's happen on market. 
I agree with all you about another opportunity totally lost by Canon. I can still work with my solid Eos 5D IV (with right ergonomics, dial wheel and joystick), my good Zeiss and Sigma Art lenses, and buy in relax a second body Sony a7R III.
I don't wanna be another time beta-tester dummy for Canon (and Nikon also), maybe either second or third generation will be more honest choices. Thank you again to all guys that work at this website. Very appreciate.


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## canonic (Sep 2, 2018)

And something else.
I thought to use my Canon 17-55 2,8 EF-S on this camera, but then read this:


> • Full HD 59.94 fps not available during EF-S cropped shooting.


What? Why?


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## RickWagoner (Sep 2, 2018)

If the rumor price of -$2000 is true the Camera is a great bang for the buck Full Frame Canon compared to the 6d2 at $1,700. 

This is not going to be their pro model mirrorless also but it is still nicely loaded esp at the price.


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## memoriaphoto (Sep 2, 2018)

While looking for information or leads regarding Eye-AF I noticed something in that fact sheet that doesn't seem right.




It seems this is from another camera, no?


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 2, 2018)

Relax kids, the VF is effectively the same size as on a 1-series body once a normal lens is attached. *0.76x*


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 2, 2018)

memoriaphoto said:


> While looking for information or leads regarding Eye-AF I noticed something in that fact sheet that doesn't seem right.
> 
> View attachment 180078
> 
> ...


Nope. The QCD just moved to the top right panel. Cross keys are located down & to the right side.


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## Septem Darnay (Sep 2, 2018)

canonic said:


> And something else.
> I thought to use my Canon 17-55 2,8 EF-S on this camera, but then read this:
> 
> What? Why?


probably because FHD 60fps uses the whole sensor area, or at least an area larger than the APSC lens image circle, so EF-S lens cannot be used?


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## memoriaphoto (Sep 2, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Nope. The QCD just moved to the top right panel. Cross keys are located down & to the right side.


Damn. I thought I was on to something


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 2, 2018)

Price it at 1.6K-1.7K and all the whining would disappear. Canon can sell this at a slight loss if they want, knowing they can make up for it with the new R lenses.


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## -pekr- (Sep 2, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> Not really on purpose. As I suspected they haven't been able to increase their sensors' readout speed at this price point. This is why you get this 720p only 120 fps spec, the 3fps with focus priority tracking, etc.
> As a result, we may also get the following : no live view feed in continuous drive mode (we'll only see a slideshow of the previous pictures taken), very slow scan time in fully electronic shutter, 12 bit raw in some continuous modes, and, I'm afraid : cropped 4K, or FF 4K with line skipping and severe rolling shutter.
> On the plus side though this gives me very strong M50 vibes in terms of pricing strategy. Which will then makes the launch lenses nonsensical, at least as far as the initial R consumers are concerned, as there's only one non L lens.



I'll fix it for you - most probably their current sensor tech for stills cameras is not capable to do it at any price point. Unless they have some different chip in their sleeves for a higher end model, don't expect miracles even with more high specced model ....


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## Septem Darnay (Sep 2, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Price it at 1.6K-1.7K and all the whining would disappear. Canon can sell this at a slight loss if they want, knowing they can make up for it with the new R lenses.


I'd be totally stunt if that happens. It is canon we are talking about, LOL


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## dave61 (Sep 2, 2018)

Very interested in this. Have been thinking about an FF body to replace my 7D.


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## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Price it at 1.6K-1.7K and all the whining would disappear. Canon can sell this at a slight loss if they want, knowing they can make up for it with the new R lenses.



Agreed with the price. And at the price you suggest, Canon wouldn't sell it at a loss. The R is a simple, cheap camera to make with very few required alignment steps during manufacturing. 

But they absolutely won't make up for it with the R lenses. Because only the 35mm f1.8 really is coherent with what the R is shaping up to be : a "cheap and cheerful" camera. That 28-70 f2 ? It will be a nice heirloom that will stay glued to the stores' shelves until Canon releases a body to match it.


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## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> I'll fix it for you - most probably their current sensor tech for stills cameras is not capable to do it at any price point. Unless they have some different chip in their sleeves for a higher end model, don't expect miracles even with more high specced model ....



I agree with you, I was just being nice (we're on Canonrumors.com after all...) . People expecting Canon to come up with an A9 competitor any time soon are in for a disappointment.


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## canonic (Sep 2, 2018)

Septem Darnay said:


> probably because FHD 60fps uses the whole sensor area, or at least an area larger than the APSC lens image circle, so EF-S lens cannot be used?


If this is the case, then FHD should not be possible with 30 fps or 24 fps either. This makes no sense.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 2, 2018)

Is Fv mode the new Flexible Priority AE mode? I was hoping Canon would copy Pentax's HyperProgram mode, TAv mode (Shutter&Aperture Priority) & ISO priority (Sv, Sensitivity Value) modes.


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## -pekr- (Sep 2, 2018)

It looks like refurbished 5DIV sensor, as there's dual pixel RAW. I still can't believe it would be just a overthought gimmick Canon has added lately. Wonder if we can expect some new aspects of the dual pixel RAW here, or it is just the relict of the 5DIV sensor.


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## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Is Fv mode the new Flexible Priority AE mode? I was hoping Canon would copy Pentax's HyperProgram mode, TAv mode (Shutter&Aperture Priority) & ISO priority (Sv, Sensitivity Value) modes.



I think so. I have a feeling that Canon has tried quite a few interesting things with UI / controls, particularly regarding exposure. Whether they're successful implementations or not we'll see but I'm glad to see some attempts in that area.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 2, 2018)

Wow, almost all buttons/dials & the new touchbar are programmable:


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## drama (Sep 2, 2018)

There’s some really toxic negativity in these replies already. I hate this stage of rumors - where people’s bonkers, unrealistic expectations don’t happen and they go in on a manufacturer for bringing the “wrong” product for them out. Absolutely no need for it. If you don’t want to buy it, cool. But saying things like “it’s crippled” or “it’s pointless” or worse is just dumb, and makes you look like a child who can’t understand that everything isn’t just for you.

Rant over - I’m excited for this. It’s interesting, new, and we still don’t have a full picture. I want to see how Canon present it, and most importantly, the images that come out of it. I’d expect a $2.5k price on this, sat squarely between the 6&5D.


----------



## ren41 (Sep 2, 2018)

clearly I'm being stupid - where are the downloads?

Does anyone think the R will have anti-flicker? It's a deal breaker for me.

ren


----------



## canonic (Sep 2, 2018)

ren41 said:


> clearly I'm being stupid - where are the downloads?
> 
> Does anyone think the R will have anti-flicker? It's a deal breaker for me.
> 
> ren



Anti-fliker, yes there is.

Here PDF


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## Bundu (Sep 2, 2018)

Septem Darnay said:


> probably because FHD 60fps uses the whole sensor area, or at least an area larger than the APSC lens image circle, so EF-S lens cannot be used?


That means 4k cropped?


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## canonic (Sep 2, 2018)

Bundu said:


> That means 4k cropped?


_*Compatible Lenses: When using Mount Adapter EF-EOS R: Canon EF or EF-S lenses (excluding EF-M lenses)*_
So, you can use EF-S lens with this adaptor.


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## mb66energy (Sep 2, 2018)

KT said:


> It would have been awesome if that gizmo could be assigned to control the AF point selection. That would have more than adequately made up for the lack of AF joystick. Now, you'll just have to trust the sensor to read out faces and focus on the right one with little outside help.



On the M50 you can use the back display or one of four quadrants of it as touchscreen to set the focus points absolute OR relative position + the zoom out button to center it. This is freely configurable.
Things work if you find the right settings and keep your nose away from the touch interface - maybe some nose surgery helps ...


----------



## Septem Darnay (Sep 2, 2018)

Bundu said:


> That means 4k cropped?


Think about it, if 4K is available with EF-S APSC size image circles, I guess 4K must be cropped, unless Canon allows for two types of 4K capture, i.e. full sensor pixel binning/oversampling with EF/RF lens and cropped mode with EF-S lens. Otherwise 4K must use a smaller area that is covered by the EF-S lenses. Considering this is Canon we are talking about, I believe that latter is more likely (that is, 4K does not use full sensor area). Though this is just my guess.


----------



## mb66energy (Sep 2, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> It's 5fps max with AF, and in fact 3fps max in focus priority. Most likely you won't have a live view feed in continuous drive. You'll get cropped 4K, or 4K with severe line skipping and massive rolling shutter. The EVF has a lower magnification than comparable bodies and I suspect that the resolution will be lower than the Z.
> 
> That's a very, very solidly sub $2000 body given the competition right now.
> 
> Canon has a precedent for releasing a cheap, compromised, but outstanding camera for the price : the M50, at least at its ultra-competitive European launch price of €570. Pricing may very well be Canon's trump card here.



... and if you buy a RF 2.0 28-70 and/or RF 1.2 50 and if these are delivering great overall IQ people will upgrade sooner or later to the pro model R body so I am 100% with you: A low introductory price is a decision factor for a lot of people.

My experience with the M50 supports your statement: It's a lot of camera (in real use, not on the spec sheet) for the price.


----------



## Bundu (Sep 2, 2018)

Septem Darnay said:


> Think about it, if 4K is available with EF-S APSC size image circles, I guess 4K must be cropped, unless Canon allows for two types of 4K capture, i.e. full sensor pixel binning/oversampling with EF/RF lens and cropped mode with EF-S lens. Otherwise 4K must use a smaller area that is covered by the EF-S lenses. Considering this is Canon we are talking about, I believe that latter is more likely (that is, 4K does not use full sensor area). Though this is just my guess.


If crop is aps-c(1.6) then all is well as you can still get wide with aps-c lenses.


----------



## mb66energy (Sep 2, 2018)

Romz26 said:


> looks like a great upgrade from my aging but great 7d. I will miss the big dial in the back tho.
> 
> What the heck is up with all those af points though? Did they make every pixel an af point?



If each pixel were an AF point you would have 30 million AF points 

For phase detect you need two (=dual) lines of e.g. 200 single photosites with slightly different viewing angles of the incoming light which is the essence of Dual Pixel AF. Both lines show the same pattern if the focusing is correct like the old fashioned split view finder.
The imaging processor (or its AF part) tries to match the patterns of both photosite lines by varying the focusing of the lens while knowing in which direction to move the focus. The rest is a matter of programming. The M50 allows smaller regions or larger regions. In my experience the larger region AF "points" are faster, maybe because the patterns to compare are longer (e.g. two 400 photosite lines).

I think the 5k+ AF points is a marketing number with some relevance for some applications but the maybe 100 AF larger AF "points" in another AF mode are faster ... - just a guess from my M50 experience.


----------



## Septem Darnay (Sep 2, 2018)

Bundu said:


> If crop is aps-c(1.6) then all is well as you can still get wide with aps-c lenses.


True, but then widest 4K footage you can get is limited to around 16mm equivalent (or 108 degrees, with a 10-18mm EF-S lens), which is probably wide enough for most people, but less than that is achievable with sony bodies. Having said that, 5DIV has a 4K crop factor of 1.74x, so I am not sure if EOS R will have the same spec.


----------



## David Littleboy (Sep 2, 2018)

JordanRushing said:


> Yup. It’s sadly a no go for me dawg. No ibis, no [email protected], no dual cards. It has some nice features, but it’s not worth me upgrading from my T7i. I’m going to either wait for the more professional body in the next 6 months, so probably go to the A7iii. Sigh, and I really wanted to stay with Canon



Hey, guy. Get with the program. Sony has been announced to be toast over and over.

The lack of IBIS and the long (20 mm vs. Sony's 9 mm) flange distance means that I'll probably be going that route, too. All the fun lenses I've been looking at (40/1.2, Loxia 21/2.8, 10/12/15mm Heliars) will probably never be available for Canon. And the lack of IBIS means paying for the IS system every time you buy a lens (and every time you take a shot in the (albeit slightly) compromised IQ).


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 2, 2018)

Fixed ISO 400 in bulb mode? what does that mean? that kills the camera for long exposure/landscape photography. Very strange limitation. Absolutely a no-go for me.


----------



## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

mb66energy said:


> My experience with the M50 supports your statement: It's a lot of camera (in real use, not on the spec sheet) for the price.



I love the M50 and think very highly of it. At its European introduction price (I thought that it was a little more expensive than it should have been in the US), I think that it's Canon's best body release in years, comprehensively outclassing the competition. Nothing can touch its combination of features and ease of use at this price point. Thinking of it it seems that Canon is one of the few remaining players making a big effort in the entry-level, feeder cameras market. 

The R could be Canon's feeder camera for FF mirrorless, but I think that there are a few issues. First, it's not going to feed that many higher grade cameras if Canon continues to have a few difficulties with their sensors' readout speed. Let's hope they'll get that sorted out but the 6DII was a blow to my confidence in them and that release is not going to help. And the lenses they're releasing at launch are completely dichotomous with the idea of an entry level FF camera, other than the 35mm f1.8. It's as if these L lenses are waiting for a body that Canon couldn't get out in time.


----------



## Del Paso (Sep 2, 2018)

drama said:


> There’s some really toxic negativity in these replies already. I hate this stage of rumors - where people’s bonkers, unrealistic expectations don’t happen and they go in on a manufacturer for bringing the “wrong” product for them out. Absolutely no need for it. If you don’t want to buy it, cool. But saying things like “it’s crippled” or “it’s pointless” or worse is just dumb, and makes you look like a child who can’t understand that everything isn’t just for you.
> 
> Rant over - I’m excited for this. It’s interesting, new, and we still don’t have a full picture. I want to see how Canon present it, and most importantly, the images that come out of it. I’d expect a $2.5k price on this, sat squarely between the 6&5D.


You are absolutely right, there are far too many "drama queens" on this forum, whining for "vital" specs whose absence turns the EOS RF into a piece of c..p.
Sad for them, since they'll miss a great camera!


----------



## Septem Darnay (Sep 2, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Fixed ISO 400 in bulb mode? what does that mean? that kills the camera for long exposure/landscape photography. Very strange limitation. Absolutely a no-go for me.





The fixed ISO is only for Auto ISO in bulb, if you want other ISO just set it to manual ISO then I think you will be ok.


----------



## ren41 (Sep 2, 2018)

canonic said:


> Anti-fliker, yes there is.
> 
> Here PDF



Fantastic, thanks Canononic


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 2, 2018)

Septem Darnay said:


> View attachment 180082
> 
> The fixed ISO is only for Auto ISO in bulb, if you want other ISO just set it to manual ISO then I think you will be ok.



Right, I may have missed that lone 'auto' word. Yeah I hope that only applies to auto ISO.


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## Stefan K. (Sep 2, 2018)

No IBIS but the RF 24-105 lenses also do not have lens IS, while the EF 24-105 lenses do. Very strange! GPS is also missing (standard on 5D, 6D and 7D), I like to use GPS when I am on tour. Flash sync speed is not yet given. Does the R support flash with all shutter times - using the electronic shutter?


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## Septem Darnay (Sep 2, 2018)

Stefan K. said:


> No IBIS but the RF 24-105 lenses also do not have lens IS, the EF 24-105 lenses do. Very strange! GPS is also missing (standard on 5D, 6D and 7D), I like to use GPS when I am on tour. Flash sync speed is not yet given. Does the R support flash with all shutter times - using the electronic shutter?


On the CR article on RF lenses, it does mention 24-105 has lens IS.


----------



## Yasko (Sep 2, 2018)

roo72 said:


> So they took a Canon 6D2, ripped out the mirror and tweaked it a little bit. Looks OK but it's definitely not revolutionary, just another incremental upgrade. I don't have a problem with a single card slot (99.999% of users don't need more either) but am a little disappointing not to see IBIS. Don't think I will be in a hurry to upgrade my current bodies to this one - doesn't really offer enough to warrant an upgrade from the last two generations of their DSLRs but it's a pretty decent camera in its own right and will sell well.



A tweaked 6D mk II? eeh... EVF? 5000 AF points? -6 EV focus? 4K?
Yeah, it only has 1 card slot and similar fps (although 2 fps more is already a lot), but neglecting he substantial differences is a bit sloppy in my view.


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## Stefan K. (Sep 2, 2018)

What a pity, no IBIS. IBIS on a full frame sensor is not so easy and Canon obviously lacks the necessary skills (or patents). This is a severe drawback in relation to Nikon and Sony.


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## Septem Darnay (Sep 2, 2018)

Stefan K. said:


> What a pity, no IBIS. IBIS on a full frame sensor is not so easy and Canon obviously lacks the necessary skills (or patents). This is a severe drawback in relation to Nikon and Sony.


Single SD card, no 120fps, no IBIS, all valid reasons for Canon to give us a sub 2k price, but will Canon do it, oh boy


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## Rubz (Sep 2, 2018)

Septem Darnay said:


> Single SD card, no 120fps, no IBIS, all valid reasons for Canon to give us a sub 2k price, but will Canon do it, oh boy


...crappy battery life, cropped 4k with ridiculous bitrate, .. more reason to sub 2000$ - Its will be great camera to use, but In no way can compete with a7iii and Z6 with those specs. But will surely make many people looking for a FF camera for 1600$-1800$ ish budget quite happy. As a professional looking for a competent hybrid system for stills and video content, a7III still makes most sense, Z6 comes in second.


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## SteveCheetham (Sep 2, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Fixed ISO 400 in bulb mode? what does that mean? that kills the camera for long exposure/landscape photography. Very strange limitation. Absolutely a no-go for me.


I think just refers to the ISO it sets when using auto ISO mode and bulb. If you set ISO manually you can have any ISO in bulb mode.


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

So typical Canon. Nerf, Nerf, Nerf instead of going full-tilt, just for once! So many specs nerfed below even 6DII (not to mention 5D IV).

* No IBIS
* only 5 fps in Servo-AF ... now, when exactly do we need high fps ... in "one-shot situations" or when we are servo-tracking moving subjects? 
* UHS-I SD slot; personally i don't mind the single SD slot, but i do consider UHS-I inacceptable in any late 2018 camera (even in the lowest powershot)

also note:
"-6 EV AF" has little to do with reality, basically just marketing BS 
EV -6 to 18 (*f/1.2*, at 73°F/23°C, ISO 100, One-Shot AF)

But even if you buy the f/1.2 lens, you will be to manual exposure, because auto-metering is only down to -3 EV 
EV *-3 *– 20 (at 73°F/23°C, ISO 100)

In summary: below Nikon Z6 and way below Sony A7 III. 
USD 1999,- is way too much for this thingie. If the body was more compact it would pretty much pass for what I'd expect a "full-frame Digital Rebel" entry level FF MILC in late 2018 ... @ USD 999,- retail ... but only with UHS-II or III slot.


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

SteveCheetham said:


> I think just refers to the ISO it sets when using auto ISO mode and bulb. If you set ISO manually you can have any ISO in bulb mode.



it is the friggin' NERFED Canon "Auto-ISO" implementation, that has been the plague in Rebel and xxD class mirrorslappers for decades. I would not have thought they'd dare to implement this sh*t little piece of FIRMWARE code in an FF camera in late 2018.


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

Yasko said:


> A tweaked 6D mk II? eeh... EVF? 5000 AF points? *-6 EV focus*? 4K?
> Yeah, it only has 1 card slot and similar fps (although 2 fps more is already a lot), but neglecting he substantial differences is a bit sloppy in my view.



you may want to read the small print on that "-6 EV" [only available with f/1.2 lens]. Otherwise it is -3 EV. Also note that AE is only down to -3 EV.
Pure marketing BS. EOS R overall is lower than 6D II, basically a "FF Rebel". I'd consider it at 999,- no way at 1999,-


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## roo72 (Sep 2, 2018)

Yasko said:


> A tweaked 6D mk II? eeh... EVF? 5000 AF points? -6 EV focus? 4K?
> Yeah, it only has 1 card slot and similar fps (although 2 fps more is already a lot), but neglecting he substantial differences is a bit sloppy in my view.


Single SD card slot. It is not a pro-level camera like 5DIV. It is a prosumer camera like 6D2 with a better sensor. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It is a good camera, it's just not at 5DIV level.


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## Keith_Reeder (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> No af-linked spot meterin? .. typical canon



Ever used it?

I have. Completely overrated and unnecessary - just another example of a pointless gimmick that serves no _actual_ useful purpose.


----------



## Septem Darnay (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> you may want to read the small print on that "-6 EV" [only available with f/1.2 lens]. Otherwise it is -3 EV. Also note that AE is only down to -3 EV.
> Pure marketing BS. EOS R overall is lower than 6D II, basically a "FF Rebel". I'd consider it at 999,- no way at 1999,-


Wait a minute wait a minute, what spec of the EOS R is lower than the 6d Mark II? This looks to me has better spec than 6dii, some that are lower than 5div, and some unique features in its own.


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## Keith_Reeder (Sep 2, 2018)

Teknon said:


> From other reviews I've read, cameras (eg Olympus) with IBIS seem to do a better job at stabilising hand held movie shooting.



Given that Olympus has no in-lens stabilised lenses, I'm not sure how they arrived at _that _conclusion...


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## Keith_Reeder (Sep 2, 2018)

KT said:


> It would have been awesome if that gizmo could be assigned to control the AF point selection.



Sure about that? There's going to be zero room between the control and your forehead to squeeze a thumb into...


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

Septem Darnay said:


> Wait a minute wait a minute, what spec of the EOS R is lower than the 6d Mark II? This looks to me has better spec than 6dii, some that are lower than 5div, and some unique features in its own.



just look at fps in Servo-AF
6D II: 6.5 fps
EOS R: 5 fps

and quite some more specs. EOS R is a "mirrorfree FF Rebel", nothing more. Also explains the User Control Layout without rear-wheel and no AF-point joystick.


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## mb66energy (Sep 2, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> I love the M50 and think very highly of it. At its European introduction price (I thought that it was a little more expensive than it should have been in the US), I think that it's Canon's best body release in years, comprehensively outclassing the competition. Nothing can touch its combination of features and ease of use at this price point. Thinking of it it seems that Canon is one of the few remaining players making a big effort in the entry-level, feeder cameras market.
> 
> The R could be Canon's feeder camera for FF mirrorless, but I think that there are a few issues. First, it's not going to feed that many higher grade cameras if Canon continues to have a few difficulties with their sensors' readout speed. Let's hope they'll get that sorted out but the 6DII was a blow to my confidence in them and that release is not going to help. And the lenses they're releasing at launch are completely dichotomous with the idea of an entry level FF camera, other than the 35mm f1.8.* It's as if these L lenses are waiting for a body that Canon couldn't get out in time.*



I appreciate your analysis of the discrepancy between body and the high end lenses. I would add the RF 24-105 4.0 (I estimate it to ~ 1000 EUR) to the 35 1.8 macro ( ~500 EUR) as more or less "entry level" and think they are a very flexible combo for a reasonable price: All round focal length solution & "poor mans available light champion" prime.

The ultra fast zoom (my estimate ~2500 EUR) & prime (~1250 EUR) make sense for those who need high frame rates for action but they also are a must to freeze motion, availabe light photography under extreme conditions or shallow DOF applications. Photographers needing faster frame rates might check mirrorless with the entry level camera and a simpler body to be prepared if the pro R body will enter market.

My own experience: Bodies go, lenses stay!


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## MayaTlab (Sep 2, 2018)

Septem Darnay said:


> Wait a minute wait a minute, what spec of the EOS R is lower than the 6d Mark II? This looks to me has better spec than 6dii, some that are lower than 5div, and some unique features in its own.



Effective fps with AF is an example. It's 3fps in focus priority mode, 5 fps in release priority mode. The 6DII's AF can theoretically perform both modes at 6.5fps, provided the conditions are right (luminosity, the lens' AF speed, etc.).
But these are just spec numbers anyway. We'll see exactly how it turns out in real life. Just don't expect miracles in continuous drive / AF (for example I doubt that we'll get a liveview feed in continuous drive mode, and that is going to be a lot more problematic than 1fps more or less here and there).


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## NicoN (Sep 2, 2018)

1.Why ist ISO fixed at iso 400 in bulb Mode? Is that the native ISO?
2. What is Fv shooting mode?
3. Why does it connect to wft-e7? Thats the transmitter for 5diii (huge box under camera)
4. Why can we do unlimited dual pixel raw shooting but only 47 normal Raw files with UHS-II cards?

So glad they unlocked the dual pixel Raw feature with virtually unlimited focus points. 
People often forget that for example focus points on m5 are just virtual clusters of the 24Million (ok slightly less because of the corners) af points on the sensor. This was probably just done because you can evaluate 24 million points at that required rate. 
So more processing power + faster readout = more points


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Given that Olympus has no in-lens stabilised lenses, I'm not sure how they arrived at _that _conclusion...



because Oly [and Sony and now Nikon] have 5-axis IBIS?
whereas in-lens stabilizers are 2-axis only [except Hybrid-IS on EF 100/2.8 Macro = 3 axis, including Z] ...


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## Septem Darnay (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> just look at fps in Servo-AF
> 6D II: 6.5 fps
> EOS R: 5 fps
> 
> and quite some more specs. EOS R is a "mirrorfree FF Rebel", nothing more. Also explains the User Control Layout without rear-wheel and no AF-point joystick.


I've just checked the 6dii manual and according to it the servo-AF continuous shooting speed is 4fps (Page 307, Servo AF for Moving Subjects), One Shot AF is 6.5 FPS, both are lower than EOS R's spec respectively.


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## NicoN (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> just look at fps in Servo-AF
> 6D II: 6.5 fps
> EOS R: 5 fps
> 
> and quite some more specs. EOS R is a "mirrorfree FF Rebel", nothing more. Also explains the User Control Layout without rear-wheel and no AF-point joystick.


And how would you chose all those Af points with a joystick? I never used the joystick on 5d either because selection with the wheels is so much faster for me. Have you ever used touch and drag AF? For me this is the best method for quickly choosing an AF point. The extra touch strip for this is just brilliant in my opinion.

Rebel camera = Crop...


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> Effective fps with AF is an example. It's 3fps in focus priority mode, 5 fps in release priority mode. The 6DII's AF can theoretically perform both modes at 6.5fps, provided the conditions are right (luminosity, the lens' AF speed, etc.).
> But these are just spec numbers anyway. We'll see exactly how it turns out in real life. Just don't expect miracles in continuous drive / AF (for example I doubt that we'll get a liveview feed in continuous drive mode, and that is going to be a lot more problematic than 1fps more or less here and there).



I just go with my experience that Canon marketing specs are overstated by about the same margin for different cameras. So unless proven otherwise, I take the difference between "theoretical" 6.5 fps on 6D II vs. "theoretical" 5 fps on EOS R to match the performance difference in real life.


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## 1Zach1 (Sep 2, 2018)

Depending on the price this seems like a great camera for me. Looking forward to seeing it in person.


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## bergstrom (Sep 2, 2018)

If canon pulled a canon and left out some features that a lot of people wanted as a lot of people have listed in previous pages, why don't we do what we're capable of doing, consumers pull a consumer, just tell them, thansk,but no thanks and move on to he next store. At some point, canon HAVE to say, Guys, we need to listen to consumers.


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## jd7 (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> you may want to read the small print on that "-6 EV" [only available with f/1.2 lens]. Otherwise it is -3 EV.



The spec sheet seems to say the -6 EV was measured under certain conditions which included the use of an f/1.2 lens, but where are you getting the part about having to use an f/1.2 lens to get -6 EV? I haven't read all the info about the EOS R in detail so you may be right, but it's not how I read the spec sheet.


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

NicoN said:


> And how would you chose all those Af points with a joystick? I never used the joystick on 5d either because selection with the wheels is so much faster for me. Have you ever used touch and drag AF? For me this is the best method for quickly choosing an AF point. The extra touch strip for this is just brilliant in my opinion.



We'll see how useful the strip doodad is in real life. On macbook it is useless cr*p. ;-)
But, I am not against a better user interface.
personally I'd love to see an up-to-date "Eye Control AF" - i look thru viewfinder at scene and whatever I double-blink at, that's where AF will focus. "No hands needed, Ma."


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

bergstrom said:


> If canon pulled a canon and left out some features that a lot of people wanted as a lot of people have listed in previous pages, why don't we do what we're capable of doing, consumers pull a consumer, just tell them, thansk,but no thanks and move on to he next store. At some point, canon HAVE to say, Guys, we need to listen to consumers.



It is exactly what i will do. Here is hoping for a flop at launch and subsequent firesale, as with underspecced EOS M. I will then pick one up at firesale price of 999


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

jd7 said:


> The spec sheet seems to say the -6 EV was measured under certain conditions which included the use of an f/1.2 lens, but where are you getting the part about having to use an f/1.2 lens to get -6 EV?? I haven't read all the info about the EOS R in detail so you may be right, but it's not how I read the spec sheet.



it is clearly stated in spec sheet, just look at the pdf. f/1.2 is a requirement for -6EV in conjunction with One-Shot AF and certain room temperatures.
In practice it may in addition also be contingent on user's shoe size and blood-pressure.


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## jd7 (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> No af-linked spot meterin? .. typical canon





Keith_Reeder said:


> Ever used it?
> I have. Completely overrated and unnecessary - just another example of a pointless gimmick that serves no _actual_ useful purpose.


I have too. It was on my first digital camera, a Power Shot S45. AF-linked spot metering sounded great so I used that as my default for a while ... until I eventually worked out it was the reason so many of my photos which used auto-exposure were underexposed or overexposed! AF-linked spot metering has its uses of course, but I have wondered if Canon generally omits it because they think too many people will use it thinking it's a good idea without really appreciating how it works. I can't say I miss having it these days.


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## Quackator (Sep 2, 2018)

No word on flash sync speed. Hope it is not too bad a surprise.

With the information so far I would guesstimate an initial 
retail price of 2200 € including "free" control ring adapter.
Delivery starts first or second week of October.
In December they take out the adapter and "drop" the
price to 2050 or 2100 €. Next year it will be available 
for 1999€, body only.


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## jd7 (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> it is clearly stated in spec sheet, just look at the pdf. f/1.2 is a requirement for -6EV in conjunction with One-Shot AF and certain room temperatures.
> In practice it may in addition also be contingent on user's shoe size and blood-pressure.



That is not how I read the PDF of the spec sheet. Yes it's saying that Canon measured -6EV under certain conditions which included the use of an f/1.2 lens, certain temperature, so they are implying you might not get -6 EV under all conditions. However, I don't think that is the same as saying you could never get -6 EV with a lens which isn't f/1.2. I certainly don't think it is the same as saying the best you can get with a lens which isn't f/1.2 is -3 EV (which is the other thing I believe you were saying).


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## bgoyette (Sep 2, 2018)

I’m going to say it again. Dedicated video start button. And now 480mb/s internal codec. (Has to be 10bit 4:2:2.. to an sd card, no less). This camera is going to be a huge hit on the video sites. As much aimed at Panasonic as it is at the Sony/Nikon crowd.


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## padam (Sep 2, 2018)

I think this is also the camera that was rumored to be the interchangeable lens version of the XC10 earlier. It is capable of doing 4k with C-Log, probably in the S35mm crop mode and it can also come with ND filters essentially built-in for EF mount. The codec is probably the same as the C200's MP4 output, which is actually still pretty decent-looking despite being 4:2:0 8-bit with manageable file sizes. But the 10-bit external output is there for those who demand it. I just hope the rolling shutter has been reduced compared to the 5D IV.

So there are two sides to it, it is a new mirrorless mount with some nice new lens options, or a more 'video-advanced' EF-mount camera. But at the same time not stepping on the Cinema line as well with long recording times (to two cards) a much more video-centric sensor and different ergonomics.

That's also why I think it will cost more than people expect it to.
If it was 2000$ it would be tailored more towards stills shooters, like a smaller, more up-to-date 6D Mark II. This trimmed down model is coming later on with a similar body but cheaper screen and EVF.

We'll see it soon anyway.


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## djack41 (Sep 2, 2018)

scrup said:


> No IS, No Dual Slots, No Eye AF.
> On the positive side, specs indicate <2k price.
> 
> The 1.6 is interesting. Does it imply EF-M support or is it just for EF-S lenses which would be implied anyway since they are DSLR lenses and not difficult to implement. EF-M would require some engineering for the 2MM flange gap difference.


Three huge omissions!!!!!!


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 2, 2018)

It's definitely NOT Rebel-like. That was probably a joke.

R is targeting the same users as 6D2 but technically it's clearly more advanced. It's a leap actually. And if we compare it to Z6, Z6 is far from being a clear winner.

I hope Canon have another pro-level camera in their magic hat, as a continuation of the 5D line.

However if I'm wrong and Canon treats R as a 5D4 mirrorless replacement, I'm really disappointed.


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## LesC (Sep 2, 2018)

Wouldn't tempt me from my 6D MKII. Not THAT much smaller, no GPS and other benefits for me at least.


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## markhbfindlay (Sep 2, 2018)

Personally I can't wait for this camera if it's affordable and would like it with the 24-105. Currently I lug around a 5DSR with 16-35mm and an 80d with 24-105, or just leave the 5DSR behind and use the 80d with an EF-S 15-85, depending on what I'm doing (I don't drive at the moment so rather severely weight limited!). The 5DSR is just too wonderful to go away, but replacing the 80d with this, for landscape photography (I don't care about burst rates, multiple card slots etc). It would have been nice to get IBIS but no go. 

The 80d still has the crop advantage for bird photography, the moon and some other things, so I may hang on to it - it also has the cheap and light 10-18 wide-angle and 55-250, which makes a very nice kit for light weight walking trips. When/if a R 16-35mm lens shows up, I could have a nice lightweight two-camera setup for intermediate hiking/biking.

It would have been nice to have an EF mount, but clearly the full advantage of this beast comes with a cost in terms of the laws of physics. Lenses such as the 28-70 F2 only become feasible with the new R mount. It will be interesting to see what this new lens ring brings to the equation, and

I can't believe that this thing is lighter than an 80d and has the same resolution as a 5DIV. The 24-105 is heavier than the 15-85, but you can't argue with the laws of physics. 

Everything comes down to the price. I'm retired and my pension isn't massive!


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## -pekr- (Sep 2, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Fixed ISO 400 in bulb mode? what does that mean? that kills the camera for long exposure/landscape photography. Very strange limitation. Absolutely a no-go for me.





fullstop said:


> it is the friggin' NERFED Canon "Auto-ISO" implementation, that has been the plague in Rebel and xxD class mirrorslappers for decades. I would not have thought they'd dare to implement this sh*t little piece of FIRMWARE code in an FF camera in late 2018.



Well, sometimes I wonder, how Canon can artifically hardwire some stuff into their cameras. Canon Flash system is not easiest to understand in itself. Apart from the camera setting ISO to 400 when flash is attached (which might make sense) or 1600 when you swivel the flash head, in Av mode, it messes your settings completly. I have set 5DIV to use the shutter time protection in Av mode, plus Auto ISO to compensate. It works, until you add a flash to the equation - then it hardwires ISO 400 there and ignores the shutter speed protection at all. So, once again, M mode to the rescue. Someone also suggested me to look into ISO safety shift, will have to do, but man, why are things so complicated?


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Sep 2, 2018)

The burst speed of 5/3fps is a very disappointing, especially after the initial rumor of 10. Even 8 would have been great with full AF/AE.


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## BillB (Sep 2, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Ever used it?
> 
> I have. Completely overrated and unnecessary - just another example of a pointless gimmick that serves no _actual_ useful purpose.


But it sounds so cool!


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## BillB (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> It is exactly what i will do. Here is hoping for a flop at launch and subsequent firesale, as with underspecced EOS M. I will then pick one up at firesale price of 999


What a surprise!


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## Kit. (Sep 2, 2018)

Mandatory face priority even in single point AF?


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## weixing (Sep 2, 2018)

Hi,
As usual, Canon bashing begin even before the camera announce... 

Hmm... -6EV with F1.2 lens, so -5EV with F1.8 lens??  

Anyway, this look like a mirrorless 6D2 with 4K if the launch price is same as 6D2. If so, I think it'll sold as well as the 6D2.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 2, 2018)

NicoN said:


> And how would you chose all those Af points with a joystick?


It has a Powershot-style joystick named "cross-keys" for AF point seletion. The keys are otherwise custom-assignable.


----------



## awair (Sep 2, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Ever used it?
> 
> I have. Completely overrated and unnecessary - just another example of a pointless gimmick that serves no _actual_ useful purpose.



It's one of the essential features using the 1DX with the 'right' lens: can't see why (apart from marketing) that it's not on the 5D4. I realise that the 1-series outgun everything, but can't see why the 5-series doesn't have all the software/menu options that exist? Sometimes pros need a smaller more discrete body (with exactly the same setup).


----------



## Yasko (Sep 2, 2018)

roo72 said:


> Single SD card slot. It is not a pro-level camera like 5DIV. It is a prosumer camera like 6D2 with a better sensor. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It is a good camera, it's just not at 5DIV level.



I didn‘t say that. All I wanted to point out is that there are substantial differences compared to the 6D mk II . I agree that it‘s more pointed towards prosumers than pros.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 2, 2018)

As always, the proof will be in the pudding. 
I'll wait for full reviews. I have never pre-ordered equipment, and only once did I order right after first release/reviews (The Sony PXW-X70 - nice little camera). I don't like to have to struggle through that first wave of firmware updates and little frustrations. It can take 6 months to tweak these things.


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## Septem Darnay (Sep 2, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Mandatory face priority even in single point AF?


I think you can turn face detection off, lol.


----------



## adamfilip (Sep 2, 2018)

not that concerned about IBIS, it would be nice but no big deal, I dont see the point of have stabilized lenses and body at the same time. 
only thing i want is Eye AF, and much better dynamic range


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## Philrp (Sep 2, 2018)

I really like the specs...

But you save some size on the camera and then need to carry 4 batteries.


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## MickDK (Sep 2, 2018)

adamfilip said:


> not that concerned about IBIS, it would be nice but no big deal, I dont see the point of have stabilized lenses and body at the same time.
> only thing i want is Eye AF, and much better dynamic range


IBIS and lens IS are combine and work together in Sony, Fuji and Olympus ML bodies. While lens IS works best for long focal lengths, IBIS works for all lenses.


----------



## MartinF. (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> No. Not going to happen. RF lenses resolve to a shorter flange distance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi - you are right - my fault - of course you cannot mount RF lens on EF mount because of flange distance.
About EF lens future. I see Canon launches new EF lenses, but at some point in future, it will be ******* if new bodies (5 years from now or so) at not having EF mount.
And that whats annoying me. I see my lens investment as something to last 10+ / 15+ years from the time of purchase. I will still have my 6D 3-5 years from now. But will I by new expensive EF lenses (24-70 f/2.8 mk2 L) if it is not the future? - probably not.
So I am very curious about what Canon is up to on the EF mount. Time will show. In the meanwhile I will enjoy taking pictures with my 6D, and my nice little collection on lenses.


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## KrisK (Sep 2, 2018)

Mic jack? Headphone?
All I see is 'Extension System Terminal'


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## padam (Sep 2, 2018)

Philrp said:


> I really like the specs...
> 
> But you save some size on the camera and then need to carry 4 batteries.



It really depends what you use it for, turning it off instead of leaving it on standby can save a fair amount of power, but this is one thing where a DSLR may have the edge(they can recover from standby faster as well). But carrying more batteries with a smaller camera is still more convenient than a big camera. ymmv


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## dkangel (Sep 2, 2018)

Totally agree. In fact I was hoping a little more from the EOS-R. If it turned out to have a few more features (i.e., dual cards, IBIS) I likely would have sold my M50 that accompanies my 5DMarkIV. But based on what I am seeing here I see no point. I will keep the M50 for a while as it is an awesome little gem (and lightweight) and will wait to see the next EOS-R has in store for us. Now mind you if for some reason there is crazy DR game changer then and only then will I reconsider.



MayaTlab said:


> I love the M50 and think very highly of it. At its European introduction price (I thought that it was a little more expensive than it should have been in the US), I think that it's Canon's best body release in years, comprehensively outclassing the competition. Nothing can touch its combination of features and ease of use at this price point. Thinking of it it seems that Canon is one of the few remaining players making a big effort in the entry-level, feeder cameras market.
> 
> The R could be Canon's feeder camera for FF mirrorless, but I think that there are a few issues. First, it's not going to feed that many higher grade cameras if Canon continues to have a few difficulties with their sensors' readout speed. Let's hope they'll get that sorted out but the 6DII was a blow to my confidence in them and that release is not going to help. And the lenses they're releasing at launch are completely dichotomous with the idea of an entry level FF camera, other than the 35mm f1.8. It's as if these L lenses are waiting for a body that Canon couldn't get out in time.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Oh how the worm turns from yesterday's orgy of info. People were elated then.
> 
> I think we've come back down to earth a bit tonight:
> 
> ...


For my purposes, I would call it a 5D4 Lite. I don’t think many will find it useful for sports or BIF shooting. But pretty competitive otherwise. Also a few advantages as you point out. So, i’m Guessing $2600. W/ EF-R Adapter.


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## infared (Sep 2, 2018)

Can't wait to see an independent Sony, Nikon, Canon comparison.
I am very happy with my 5DIV Kit...Have ten lenses....not changing anytime soon, nor am I putting an adapter on to mount to a small body. 
I have an extensive Olympus Kit, which are my favorite cameras..and am quite content to just observe the goings on here. Want to know how this camera actually compares to the Sony...just for the intellectual exercise... Also..want to see if the rumors about at Dual-Mount Mirrorless Model are true? Canon is supposed to release 2 Mirrorless cameras...I think?
Just watching and enjoying the developments. Not excited to change anything...I LOVE my current gear.


----------



## mb66energy (Sep 2, 2018)

Septem Darnay said:


> True, but then widest 4K footage you can get is limited to around 16mm equivalent (or 108 degrees, with a 10-18mm EF-S lens), which is probably wide enough for most people, but less than that is achievable with sony bodies. Having said that, 5DIV has a 4K crop factor of 1.74x, so I am not sure if EOS R will have the same spec.



A crop factor of 1.75 makes sense because the cameras hozizontal res of 6720 pixels divided by 3840 4k resolution gives exactly that number. So it's a 1:1 mapping of physical pixels to video file pixels. I am glad to have the EF-S 10-22 and if the camera provides CA correction it will be definitely a good lens (very low distortion for ultra wides) with an effective focal length of 1.75/1.6 x 10 = 11mm.
Most important things might be for videographers: DPAF must work, good overall IQ of the files.

By the way: I like the Technicolor image style which can be used freely on all Canon cameras providing a flat curve for (1) better grading headroom and (2) for stills a great style to check for highlight / shadow recovery headroom. So maybe a good workaround if you do not have some log styles.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Sep 2, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> So do the Z6 specs, and yet...


Well, the Z6 has IBIS (i can live without as i did before, i don't care much) and 12FPS with AF (AE locked but that is less of a problem).


----------



## NorskHest (Sep 2, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> Hi - you are right - my fault - of course you cannot mount RF lens on EF mount because of flange distance.
> About EF lens future. I see Canon launches new EF lenses, but at some point in future, it will be ******* if new bodies (5 years from now or so) at not having EF mount.
> And that whats annoying me. I see my lens investment as something to last 10+ / 15+ years from the time of purchase. I will still have my 6D 3-5 years from now. But will I by new expensive EF lenses (24-70 f/2.8 mk2 L) if it is not the future? - probably not.
> So I am very curious about what Canon is up to on the EF mount. Time will show. In the meanwhile I will enjoy taking pictures with my 6D, and my nice little collection on lenses.


 You and I share a similar fear with the EF mount fading away. I own 16-35 v3, 35 1.4v2 , 100 macro, 85 1.4, 300 2.8 v2, 600 f4 v2, 1dxmkii, 1 dc, c200 and a few cinema lenses and a ton of cf and Cfast. They are releasing new ef lenses and it makes me wonder if they will keep two eco systems


----------



## infared (Sep 2, 2018)

Fwiler said:


> No IBIS is sad, but if those lens selections are true, I won't care.


No IBIS is more than just sad. For many ....Total Deal Breaker.


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## Breezy123 (Sep 2, 2018)

720P at 120FPS!!! ... C'mon, how in the hell could they not package 120 at FHD, its the bread and butter of any filmmaker these days -- that alone will make this camera a non-starter with filmers (perhaps there will be a second video model) -- lenses look primo though, wish i could stay in 2006 and shoot 720 for clients.


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## Wdy111 (Sep 2, 2018)

Will be focus peaking in the *Canon EOS R?*


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

canonic said:


> Isn't this a new feature?!



No, it been there for a while. I know even 5D2 had it. Not sure exactly since when Canon has that feature


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 2, 2018)

NorskHest said:


> You and I share a similar fear with the EF mount fading away. I own 16-35 v3, 35 1.4v2 , 100 macro, 85 1.4, 300 2.8 v2, 600 f4 v2, 1dxmkii, 1 dc, c200 and a few cinema lenses and a ton of cf and Cfast. They are releasing new ef lenses and it makes me wonder if they will keep two eco systems



My guess is that EF will remain for a long time in sport/wildlife segments, especially after seeing that Canon cannot even manage 8 FPS with full AF.


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## exkeks (Sep 2, 2018)

mb66energy said:


> I am glad to have the EF-S 10-22 and if the camera provides CA correction it will be definitely a good lens (very low distortion for ultra wides) with an effective focal length of 1.75/1.6 x 10 = 11mm.



Looking forward to use this lens again as well (Actually, I had the baffle replaced to use it on my 6D). 

But your calculation seems odd. Provided the video crop will be 1,75x, the lens will give you a max eqFOV of 17,5mm (10mm x 1,75). 

With regard to the large image circle of the 10-22mm, I’m interested if the stills crop mode will be “forced” with EF-S lenses or if it will be optional...? Also, the remaining MPix in crop mode will be few (~12MPix). :/


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

memoriaphoto said:


> While looking for information or leads regarding Eye-AF I noticed something in that fact sheet that doesn't seem right.
> 
> View attachment 180078
> 
> ...



Sounds like Canon calling the multi directional buttons "cross keys" it is definitely confusing


----------



## Liverpool FC (Sep 2, 2018)

The focusing points sounds amazing, which isn't surprising as I'm using the good old 5dii.

However, just a tiny bit disappointed as there is no confirmation of either Eye-Af or IBIS. 

Can't wait for the price and it's dynamic range.


----------



## BillB (Sep 2, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> Hi - you are right - my fault - of course you cannot mount RF lens on EF mount because of flange distance.
> About EF lens future. I see Canon launches new EF lenses, but at some point in future, it will be ******* if new bodies (5 years from now or so) at not having EF mount.
> And that whats annoying me. I see my lens investment as something to last 10+ / 15+ years from the time of purchase. I will still have my 6D 3-5 years from now. But will I by new expensive EF lenses (24-70 f/2.8 mk2 L) if it is not the future? - probably not.
> So I am very curious about what Canon is up to on the EF mount. Time will show. In the meanwhile I will enjoy taking pictures with my 6D, and my nice little collection on lenses.





NorskHest said:


> You and I share a similar fear with the EF mount fading away. I own 16-35 v3, 35 1.4v2 , 100 macro, 85 1.4, 300 2.8 v2, 600 f4 v2, 1dxmkii, 1 dc, c200 and a few cinema lenses and a ton of cf and Cfast. They are releasing new ef lenses and it makes me wonder if they will keep two eco systems


Well, as long as Canon has DSLR's and as long has Canon has EF lenses that are not available in RF, then there will be a place foe EF, or so it seems to me.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 2, 2018)

Tompie913 said:


> That's a LOT of AF points. I have to think though that at that point it's a bit of diminishing returns, but this thing may be the new king of AF nonetheless. Battery life is a bit disappointing though slightly better than the Nikon Z and both will probably be sufficient in the real world anyway.
> 
> BUT, if it is indeed a single SD card, that is very disappointing indeed. Nikon at least has the excuse of the larger XQD cards as well as the promise of extremely fast CFExpress cards. A single SD is really, really underwhelming for a mid-to-high-end camera in 2018.
> 
> Otherwise, it looks like they've about achieved parity with the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6. Not quite the power play that I thought they might pull.


Good thing is not mid- to high end camera then.,,


----------



## ken (Sep 2, 2018)

So many people confused by Auto ISO and bulb mode. Think about it... How can a camera possibly automatically select ISO when it doesn't know how long the shutter will be open? It can't. So it selects ISO 400 if you've forgotten to dial in an ISO (i.e. left it in auto ISO). This is just a default value to rescue a bonehead move by the user.

The 5Div behaves exactly the same way. 

TLDR; the camera is NOT limiting ISO in bulb mode.


----------



## bokehmon22 (Sep 2, 2018)

Disappointing without IBIS and eyeAF yet exciting that their professional version will add it along with dual card slot.


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 2, 2018)

Everything looks really great. Now if it can send out 4k via HDMI, I'll really be pretty happy.

.....then there's the issue of "How much??" Feels like we should see something around a 6D range, perhaps very low $2k figure


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## PureClassA (Sep 2, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> Disappointing without IBIS and eyeAF yet exciting that their professional version will add it along with dual card slot.



Where do we see NO ibis? It's not a full list yet. we just dunno.


----------



## Foxeslink (Sep 2, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> Where do we see NO ibis? It's not a full list yet. we just dunno.


But isnt the pdf with the full details or it can be more?


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Sep 2, 2018)

Canon stated a few times that they are not fan of IBIS because of alignment and reliability problems.


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## ken (Sep 2, 2018)

David Littleboy said:


> Hey, guy. Get with the program. Sony has been announced to be toast over and over.
> 
> The lack of IBIS and the long (20 mm vs. Sony's 9 mm) flange distance means that I'll probably be going that route, too. All the fun lenses I've been looking at (40/1.2, Loxia 21/2.8, 10/12/15mm Heliars) will probably never be available for Canon. And the lack of IBIS means paying for the IS system every time you buy a lens (and every time you take a shot in the (albeit slightly) compromised IQ).



The cost of lenses is definitely something to consider. Make sure you compare prices on Sony GM lens to equivalent Canon L lens. Last I checked they were about 30% premium over equivalent L lenses.


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## ecpu (Sep 2, 2018)

That 480mbps 4K has me very interested. We will see how it's implemented though. They may implement a massive crop to deter us from using it too seriously for the video features, even though the sensor and processing engine may be more than capable of producing very high quality results.

I will buy this if the following are true:
- 4K with little/no crop, 4:2:2 10-bit
- Dynamic range is at least 14 stops at base ISO
- It isn't priced the same as a 5DIV - I don't think it's appropriate to price it the same as 5DIV given the current competition. It could be more than a Z6/A7II, but not quite a 5D1V.

Something tells me this is their Z7 competitor though... I hope I'm wrong.

We will see. This is exciting.


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

It sounds like it is cropped 4k in this camera again. Now let's see if DPAF works on 4k. I thought I had kept my expectations too low this time but even very conservative expectation sounds like a lot for Canon. I am going from Sure I am pre-ordering to well... wait and see. I guess even with the cropped 4k and no 1080p 120 fps this can still become a good vlogging camera because of the variangle screen


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## J9canon (Sep 2, 2018)

So no timelapse or intervalometer? That might be a deal breaker for me.


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## ken (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Don't get me wrong, Canon may shock me and offer a $2k rig here. It's a hybrid of a 6D2 and 5D4, but Canon historically doesn't dole out the FF sensor goodness on the cheap. They protect the price of cameras that have the good stuff.
> 
> If you could get a 5D4 sensor and image quality and a tilty-flippy for $2k instead of the $3099 5D4 asking price, I'd imagine Canon would lose a lot of 5D4 sales.
> 
> ...


My guess is they are going to shock you with a US $2200 price, but we'll know soon enough. 

And if this is indeed their entry level FF camera with a low price, it will speak _volumes _about Canon''s interest in moving it's user base to mirrorless (and the the RF mount).


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 2, 2018)

J9canon said:


> So no timelapse or intervalometer? That might be a deal breaker for me.



I don't get it why adding a small software function like those and bulb timer is such a big problem for manufacturers. These should be standard even on the cheapest PS by now.


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## Dvash7 (Sep 2, 2018)

No IBIS, no Eye AF, no 1080/120, no native 24-70 lens.
Goodbye Canon, hello Sony!
I've waited for way too long just for this announcement to decide whether I should make the switch. Canon have definitely made up my mind for me.


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## sdz (Sep 2, 2018)

My wish list:


IBIS
EF capable mount
Improved sensor performance

So, that's a No, a No and a "we do not know." I may buy a used 5DS R instead. It's not as though I _need_ a new camera.


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## ecpu (Sep 2, 2018)

Dvash7 said:


> No IBIS, no Eye AF, no 1080/120, no native 24-70 lens.
> Goodbye Canon, hello Sony!
> I've waited for way too long just for this announcement to decide whether I should make the switch. Canon have definitely made up my mind for me.



I might be finally jumping ship as well. But I've waited a long time at this point and will definitely give them the benefit of the doubt and wait for independent reviews.. and the full release so we can know the official 100% spec list.


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## PerKr (Sep 2, 2018)

This is starting to sound underwhelming. If you guys are right, this looks more like a $1000 camera than a $2000 camera. I hope you're wrong and this is at least on par with the Z6


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## 1Zach1 (Sep 2, 2018)

J9canon said:


> So no timelapse or intervalometer? That might be a deal breaker for me.


Missing details like this are what make me think we aren’t seeing a complete picture of the specs.


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## ken (Sep 2, 2018)

ecpu said:


> I might be finally jumping ship as well. But I've waited a long time at this point and will definitely give them the benefit of the doubt and wait for independent reviews.. and the full release so we can know the official 100% spec list.



I've waited a long time too. I suspect a lot of us have. If this is the entry FF at around a 2K price, then I think it's a great package and I'll be more than happy to wait for reviews and another 6 months for the pro model. But if this is "the pro model" and priced above 3K, it's probably time to move. So my hopes are:

1. A roughly 2K price.
2. Official announcement that a pro model is in development and coming by next summer.

I think at least item 1 is very likely.


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## Josh Leavitt (Sep 2, 2018)

All in all, I think Canon have produced an excellent camera with the EOS R as their debut full-frame mirrorless. What it lacks for in frames per second compared to the competition, it more than makes up for in autofocus points and AF performance. The fully articulating screen is a huge improvement over the rivals. And Canon has by far surpassed Sony and Nikon in terms of desirable launch glass. The wildcard here is the price - hopefully it's very competitive.

I'm not surprised that it doesn't have blockbuster features right out of the gate. With it using a brand new mount, Canon would have to be fifty shades of stupid to build a camera that eclipses the performance of their bread-and-butter DSLRs and the huge library of highly profitable EF glass. The RF lens library needs to grow significantly before we start seeing the EOS 1R models (1D X equivalents) that have the specs most of us are hoping for. Although the impressive launch lineup of RF glass makes me optimistic this will happen sooner rather than later. 

Now for my musings on what the EOS R _could_ bring to the table.

Does the ultra-fast AF mean this camera will debut the next gen DPAF? Canon have a couple patents for some impressive revisions - this might be a camera that can compete with the A9 in terms of AF acquisition speed if it's packing a new DPAF architecture. 

Has Dual Pixel RAW been improved in terms of focus depth? I guess this would go hand-in-hand with a revision to the DPAF architecture if it's true. DP RAW that can move the plane of sharp focus forward or backward up to a distance of 10-15mm would be a massive improvement. A lot of portrait, fashion, and beauty photographers would kill for such a feature. 

Does Canon have any intentions of using eye tracking technology to become an optional mode for AF control? NOT Eye AF in the sense of locking focus to the eye of the subject in the scene (although I expect they'll add that via firmware if it's not available at launch), but rather eye tracking technology for the photographer in selecting the AF point. Canon implemented a form of this way back in the day, but it never really caught on. In this day and age with focus points covering the whole sensor area, and a total number of selectable AF points numbering in the thousands, I expect this would be the perfect time to bring it back as an optional feature for AF point selection. 

With the new RF lens protocol, is there a chance Canon could introduce a few specialty lenses to the RF lineup, like central shutter lenses? The Leica S for example has the ability to use focal plane shutter, or central (leaf) shutter if the lens supports it. Granted these wouldn't be high volume sellers, but there might be a market sufficiently large enough to pay a little extra for a lens with a 1/2000 second flash sync speed. While I'm doubtful Canon would create such lenses, the throughput of the RF protocol would likely be more than fast enough to support all focus, image stabilization, aperture control, and custom functions on the lens in addition to a central shutter. It could just be another unique feature that makes the EOS R an enticing platform.

I have a few more thoughts on the potential for the EOS R system, but I'll stop myself from spouting exposition.


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## Sharlin (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> it is the friggin' NERFED Canon "Auto-ISO" implementation, that has been the plague in Rebel and xxD class mirrorslappers for decades. I would not have thought they'd dare to implement this sh*t little piece of FIRMWARE code in an FF camera in late 2018.



As has been said, it is ridiculous to expect Auto ISO in BULB mode where the camera cannot know how long the shutter is going to be open. That aside, the spec sheet actually seems to say that Auto ISO *won't* be fixed at 400 in AvTvM modes when a flash is used, unlike previous Canon bodies!

But what's the Fv mode mentioned there?!


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## bks54 (Sep 2, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> But what's the Fv mode mentioned there?!



There is something called Flexible priority in the exposure systems list. Not sure what that is.


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## -pekr- (Sep 2, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> As has been said, it is ridiculous to expect Auto ISO in BULB mode where the camera cannot know how long the shutter is going to be open. That aside, the spec sheet actually seems to say that Auto ISO *won't* be fixed at 400 in AvTvM modes when a flash is used, unlike previous Canon bodies!
> 
> But what's the Fv mode mentioned there?!



Not fixing and ISO in Av mode to 400 would definitely be a good news. I would welcome it even as a "fix" for the 5DIV. As for a Fv, ppl at Fred Miranda's forum were mentioning some Focus mode, whatever it might mean. I thought that focus mode = Av though, as a focus / field of depth.


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Sep 2, 2018)

Still holding out that Canon's pro-level mirrorless will be native EF mount. But now seeing the RF 50 1.2L and 28-70L, it's apparent that EF is going to die quicker than I want. Canon is going to want to push pros to getting those lenses. Maybe we'll get lucky and the 5DV and 1DXIII will be mirrorless designs with EF mount to hold us over as the RF line matures, but I doubt it. I predict only pro-grade RF mount moving forward.


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## Pansottin (Sep 2, 2018)

Where is Focus Peaking or Focus Assist (from EOS Cinema system) for manual only lenses focusing?
Anyone? Opinions?
Just the old DSLR style "Magnified view possible by approx. 5x or 10x for manual focusing" (LiveView) or the Beep/green dot (Viewfinder)?
Cannot be...


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## siegsAR (Sep 2, 2018)

No FHD 120fps is just pure and utter crippling, and no I don't need it, but geez.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 2, 2018)

siegsAR said:


> No FHD 120fps is just pure and utter crippling, and no I don't need it, but geez.


While I don't need [email protected] fps, I do need uncroppes 4k. Settling for [email protected] fps gives me the sneaking suspicion(slow sensor readout) there'll be a large crop on 4k like the 5D mark 4. If we do get the uncropped 4K , it'll have some incredible rolling shutter. 

If it has IBIS, it'll be a killer photography camera with the rumored price tag.


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## ken (Sep 2, 2018)

30 years or so ago, I bought a Leatherman multi-tool for camping. Several friends had bought similar pocket tools. I was proud of how my tool had just the tools I actually might need. One friend was quick to point out that mine didn't have a cork-screw. "I don't drink wine." was my response. For weeks though, whenever the subject of these tools came up, my friend would point out to everyone "Ken's doesn't even have a cork-screw."

I came to realize some people buy things solely for bragging rights. I can't relate.

p.s. My friend didn't drink wine either.


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> Still holding out that Canon's pro-level mirrorless will be native EF mount. But now seeing the RF 50 1.2L and 28-70L, it's apparent that EF is going to die quicker than I want. Canon is going to want to push pros to getting those lenses. Maybe we'll get lucky and the 5DV and 1DXIII will be mirrorless designs with EF mount to hold us over as the RF line matures, but I doubt it. I predict only pro-grade RF mount moving forward.



Now that they have this new mount and the L glasses for the RF mount, I do not believe they will make any MILC with EF mount. But my guess is that Canon will come up with the next version of 1DX which will be a DSLR and may be the next version of 5D as DSLR as well while they build the arsenal of RF lenses. This will also ensure when their high end MILC comes out there are plenty of RF glass that pros can make use of. That might be in another 5 years down the line. I wonder if Canon will come up with the new version of 5DsR and if they are will that be an MILC? Personally I prefer that as a MILC. If it is an MILC and coming out in next year or 2 that might not have impressive 4k video as well meaning 4k without crop, good codec, focus magnification, c log, focus peaking, zebras, etc....


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

At this point i feel like Canon saying to people who jumped ship to Sony "Don't worry you are not missing anything" but I will hold on that until the official announcement and the full spec list and the price is out


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Sep 2, 2018)

Looks like a nice little shooter. Lenses are better than I anticipated but I'd say the camera is right on the mark as long as it hits a 6D level price. Canon may price a little higher than that at launch to capture pent up demand but hopefully they go low to drive adoption of the new mount. The R plus that 28-70 F2 is going to be an awesome low light event rig for those that need. It's Canon so I think we can assume the video specs will underwhelm but actual performance will be perfectly fine for the minority who actually shoot video. If its 4K30P I think we can assume that means it reads an 8MP / 1:1 crop similar to the 5D4. Hopefully the read speeds/rolling shutter aren't too bad so it can be used handheld/gimbaled. You can't please everybody but seems like a good first outing for Canon. I'd park one in my garage.


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 2, 2018)

My worry is what will happen with the M mount. It will obviously not be compatible with RF. My guess is that Canon will keep it as a cheapo system and will release 1 plastic lens per year with M mount. Quite disappointing.


----------



## Yasko (Sep 2, 2018)

Btw I wouldn‘t expect L lenses to be focus by wire as some are fearing they might be...
At least that‘s my hope. Why should „all“ new lenses for the RF-Mount be like that?


----------



## CanonGrunt (Sep 2, 2018)

NorskHest said:


> You and I share a similar fear with the EF mount fading away. I own 16-35 v3, 35 1.4v2 , 100 macro, 85 1.4, 300 2.8 v2, 600 f4 v2, 1dxmkii, 1 dc, c200 and a few cinema lenses and a ton of cf and Cfast. They are releasing new ef lenses and it makes me wonder if they will keep two eco systems



Considering that all the Cinema bodies have EF mount options ( for the lower models it's the only option), I don't think that mount is going anywhere anytime soon. I'd wader that the 1D X line will stay around for a long time in EF, hence the new big white lenses being released. Plus, Video people love the EF lenses. The Panasonic EVA 1, a version of the SONY NEX, RED Cinema, and many of the Black Magic Cameras all have native EF mount options. Not to mention the amount of people I have seen filming on Sony's and GH5's and such with adapters just so they could use EF mount Canon and Zeiss glass. Canon makes too much money in the cinema world for the EF mount to go away anytime soon.


----------



## wockawocka (Sep 2, 2018)

It's been months since I posted on CR so hello and here's my take.

Canon have a firecracker there and with the new 50, 35 and 28-70 being R specific, a reason for many to buy this camera. That you can fit existing ef lenses on even more of a reason and as it's not what I consider full pro spec, a price point to draw people in if only to test it out.

This thing will sell like absolute hot cakes and is a superbly easy access point for Canon users to test mirrorless out in anticipation of a dual slotted pro body in 6 months time when I would imagine a 24-70 R, 70-200 F4 R, 85 1.4 AND 1.8 R are launched to complete the system.

Canon just drew a line in the sand, dug a moat and put up a 10 foot wall to make a point.


----------



## herion (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> No. Not going to happen. RF lenses resolve to a shorter flange distance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Optically, I think it *IS* possible. Think of corrective lenses for someone that is nearsighted - their focus is ahead of the retina, so lenses are used to "pull" the focus back to where it should be. Sort of like a neutral speedbooster....


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Ever used it?
> 
> I have. Completely overrated and unnecessary - just another example of a pointless gimmick that serves no _actual_ useful purpose.




I actually use that feature every day -- taking photos with my cell phone, which can do this. A D5500-level camera has this for Nikon. I want this feature regardless of how little you personally value it.

And Canon would agree that it's desirable. Only 1-series cameras are given this functionality. So in that light, I understand why they've withheld it with the EOS R.

- A


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 2, 2018)

Could anybody explain what's the hype about the lack of [email protected]? Are people really using it so widely?


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

Yasko said:


> Btw I wouldn‘t expect L lenses to be focus by wire as some are fearing they might be...
> At least that‘s my hope. Why should „all“ new lenses for the RF-Mount be like that?



Sounds like the future lenses for all MILCs will FBW. Started with Sony, Nikon and now Canon all going that way I do not have any hope the old focus distance scale will come back. Today I use that extensively for macro shots and when I have hard time getting focus with a lens I just look at the scale to make sure I am not closer than the MFD ans also to get an idea where it is focusing roughly and override the AF. The first reason is something i would consider a must at this point but if there is enough technology to fill the void I will move on. Even otherwise do I have a choice?  The second item is more of a convenience to see where the lens is roughly focusing at. I am sure I will miss it but I guess can live without it


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## bhf3737 (Sep 2, 2018)

canonic said:


> Doesn't this means that we are talking here about 10bit 4:2:2 video???


Comparing to Panasonic GH5 which has 400Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit ALL-I), I guess this should also be 10bit 4:2:2. If so, quite impressive because even rival brands (e.g. Panasonic, Sony) and pro Cinema cameras (e.g. C200, XF400) don't have and cannot match this.


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I actually use that feature every day -- taking photos with my cell phone, which can do this. A D5500-level camera has this for Nikon. I want this feature regardless of how little you personally value it.
> 
> And Canon would agree that it's desirable. Only 1-series cameras are given this functionality. So in that light, I understand why they've withheld it with the EOS R.
> 
> - A



Good to know you have a second item that you want and Canon would not give that


----------



## DaveGrice (Sep 2, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Could anybody explain what's the hype about the lack of [email protected]? Are people really using it so widely?



B-roll mostly. It's a thing now, because competitive models have it. The same way [email protected] will be a big deal in a few more years, this has just become relevant because of competitive pressures. 

TBH, I'm quite happy with [email protected] and 4K is a novelty for me, so it's just gravy. However, for folks that do video more seriously, this is definitely a differentiator.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> Comparing to Panasonic GH5 which has 400Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit ALL-I), I guess this should also be 10bit 4:2:2. If so, quite impressive because even rival brands (e.g. Panasonic, Sony) and pro Cinema cameras (e.g. C200, XF400) don't have and cannot match this.



Hence the crop to compensate or to "protect" the cinema cameras?  I guess the full frame 4k (with obvious aspect ratio crop) with DPAF along with over sampling with 4:2:0 8 bit would be a better choice


----------



## Durf (Sep 2, 2018)

I've been


ken said:


> 30 years or so ago, I bought a Leatherman multi-tool for camping. Several friends had bought similar pocket tools. I was proud of how my tool had just the tools I actually might need. One friend was quick to point out that mine didn't have a cork-screw. "I don't drink wine." was my response. For weeks though, whenever the subject of these tools came up, my friend would point out to everyone "Ken's doesn't even have a cork-screw."
> 
> I came to realize some people buy things solely for bragging rights. I can't relate.
> 
> p.s. My friend didn't drink wine either.



I've been carrying Leatherman's for 30 or more years now also, the last thing I'd ever use it for is to pull a cork out of a wine bottle.....it's my work tool not my wine tasting tool ! LOL 

Yet many look for and only see a tools weaknesses rather than its strengths.....many look at cameras the same way too. 

I prefer my DSLR's and I have no interests what so ever going mirrorless but this new camera sounds like a great tool if they keep it under 2500 bucks. It does NOT sound like Canons FF Mirrorless PRO Flagship Camera by any means and I'm sure they will spring that model soon as well (after they make some bucks off this debut edition).

My guess is this EOS R is the a7iii competitor so to speak and I believe by what's been leaked so far it may top that Sony for many just for having the flip screen, face tracking, and DPAF alone. 

My other guess is that Canon will be leading the FF Mirrorless market within the next 24 months......


----------



## bhf3737 (Sep 2, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Could anybody explain what's the hype about the lack of [email protected]? Are people really using it so widely?


That is exactly my question. [email protected] may be used for adding effects (slow motion of ducks in a pond, etc.) but does not contribute to better quality video, so what is the hype?


----------



## Fwiler (Sep 2, 2018)

Josh Leavitt said:


> Has Dual Pixel RAW been improved in terms of focus depth? I guess this would go hand-in-hand with a revision to the DPAF architecture if it's true. DP RAW that can move the plane of sharp focus forward or backward up to a distance of 10-15mm would be a massive improvement. A lot of portrait, fashion, and beauty photographers would kill for such a feature.



This is a good question, and yes I would kill for that. I personally care less of the eye focus that everyone seems to think is needed. I've used it, it's fine for what it is, but it's not something I would use because of the limitations.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

jd7 said:


> The spec sheet seems to say the -6 EV was measured under certain conditions which included the use of an f/1.2 lens, but where are you getting the part about having to use an f/1.2 lens to get -6 EV? I haven't read all the info about the EOS R in detail so you may be right, but it's not how I read the spec sheet.




Neuro is our AF expert and I'd imagine he'd have something to say about Fullstop's comment. 

I believe EOS R's AF system will function very well in low light, but Canon appears to have pulled a marketing fast one here -- but just a bit. I've seen sensitivity claims made with everything from f/1.4 to f/2.8 lenses, but here they have indeed made the claim based on a f/1.2 lens.

But I don't believe the statement:

EV -6 to 18 (f/1.2, at 73°F/23°C, ISO 100, One-Shot AF)​
Means that the AF sensitivity wheels come off the bus if you are not shooting an f/1.2 lens. I believe it gradually steps down with lens speed. Again, I await Neuro's take on this.

But in full fairness to Fullstop, it would appear that even if the focusing works in a dark cave as advertised, we're shooting in M if we do. His metering catch is a good one.

- A


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 2, 2018)

The lack of IBIS is what surprised me most, especially as the lenses do not seem to have the 'IS' designation. But maybe this body will be the lower priced one, the higher one will have IBIS and the R lenses announced are designed more for that body?


OK, I know I am indulging in wishful thinking...


----------



## Kit. (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I actually use that feature every day -- taking photos with my cell phone, which can do this.


For my cellphone, I can write a program that will measure exposure exactly as Iike it to do. I would love to see the same on a FF camera, but I'm not in hurry.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 2, 2018)

DaveGrice said:


> B-roll mostly. It's a thing now, because competitive models have it. The same way [email protected] will be a big deal in a few more years, this has just become relevant because of competitive pressures.
> 
> TBH, I'm quite happy with [email protected] and 4K is a novelty for me, so it's just gravy. However, for folks that do video more seriously, this is definitely a differentiator.


B-roll for vlogs? I'm not really into video processing and I don't care much about video features. I realise it's for slowing 4x down? That is, many people so desperately want 4x slowdown instead of just 2x that they won't buy an otherwise suitable camera?


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 2, 2018)

Finally, the specs look more like a DSLR than a power shot, I did not buy a "M" because it cannot be remorely controlled by a USB link, it appears that this keeps the P{ower Shot mentality here, wi-fi for remote control is poor at best.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Nikon's FTZ adaptor is $249 (I believe). They sell three kits: body only / body + adaptor / body + adaptor + lens


KrisK said:


> Mic jack? Headphone?
> All I see is 'Extension System Terminal'










Looks like a headphone flap to me -- bottom left of the body above.

- A


----------



## Kit. (Sep 2, 2018)

Durf said:


> I've been carrying Leatherman's for 30 or more years now also, the last thing I'd ever use it for is to pull a cork out of a wine bottle.....it's my work tool not my wine tasting tool ! LOL


If I were carrying a Leatherman, I would likely not use its cork screw either. I have a Victorinox for that (and I do use it to open wine bottles on vacations).



Quarkcharmed said:


> B-roll for vlogs?


For weddings, I think.


----------



## Quackator (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> (...) now Canon all going that way I do not have any hope
> the old focus distance scale will come back.



It looks like there is no need for it anymore, since the 
distance is projected inside the EVF or on the back LCD.

This will likely be more precise than engraved on the lens barrel.


----------



## Quackator (Sep 2, 2018)

Durf said:


> My other guess is that Canon will be leading the FF Mirrorless market within the next 24 months......



They already lead Mirrorless as such. And you can bet that by the end of the year
they will have exceeded their goal of 50% global market share.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

NorskHest said:


> You and I share a similar fear with the EF mount fading away. I own 16-35 v3, 35 1.4v2 , 100 macro, 85 1.4, 300 2.8 v2, 600 f4 v2, 1dxmkii, 1 dc, c200 and a few cinema lenses and a ton of cf and Cfast. They are releasing new ef lenses and it makes me wonder if they will keep two eco systems




According to B&H, Canon sells some 68 EF lenses. RF will soon have _four_.

As far as ecosystems go, one is a newly formed village and the other is a bustling metropolis.

Discussion of EF going away is comically premature. Canon can't even begin to have that conversation for 10 years.

- A


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

Quackator said:


> It looks like there is no need for it anymore, since the
> distance is projected inside the EVF or on the back LCD.
> 
> This will likely be more precise than engraved on the lens barrel.



The distance scale projected in the display is good but accuracy part I would say we will have to wait and see because it is a piece of software translating the position of focusing group elements? to a distance scale. Nonetheless it can be improved over time even if it is not accurate initially.


----------



## fingerstein (Sep 2, 2018)

Unusable, insane bitrates with recording limits. Maybe motion jpeg, again


> If the recording time reaches 29 min. 59 sec. (or 7 min. 29 sec. for a HD High Frame Rate Movie), the movie shooting will stop automatically.





> 4K (UHD) 35 min on 128Gb card with 480 Mbps


Oh, Canon! We know you can... but you won't, only for a kidney.


----------



## NPC 02 (Sep 2, 2018)

Nikon Win, Canon lose....


----------



## bhf3737 (Sep 2, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> B-roll for vlogs? I'm not really into video processing and I don't care much about video features. I realise it's for slowing 4x down? That is, many people so desperately want 4x slowdown instead of just 2x that they won't buy an otherwise suitable camera?


Again same question here. For B-roll, you need multi-camera setup, and doing so, you need cameras with time code in and out, which is something that most of photography oriented cameras are not capable of. Furthermore, editing is time consuming because of precises insertion the scenes between takes. Therefore, it is definitely not for a one-person-show vloggers and not for everyday photographers.


----------



## drama (Sep 2, 2018)

Let's break down these current dealbreakers, shall we?

* IBIS - well, we don't have a full spec sheet yet, let's wait for the announce proper. Yes, it would be nice. With good IS is it a deal breaker? sure, if you're trying to make a professional film. Otherwise, it'll be great for vlogging, B-Roll, youtube content etc - of which there is a gigantic market. And for the professional cinematographer, the cinema range.

* 120FPS - W H O C A R E S. Seriously. Buy a GoPro. Use your celphone. Slow motion is gargantuanly overused, and there's still 60FPS which will suit most purposes. Yes, Canon have ignored the parkour / skateboarding crowd with this camera. I'm sure they're very sad.

* Intervalometer / Spectrometer / Blood pressure monitor / other tiny thing - Yes, these don't exist.

This site is full of people desperate to find every scrap of information on something that isn't out yet, so they can tell you all about how it's bad. A couple of unarguable facts:
1. Canon have a far better understanding of their market, audience and their prioritised needs that you or I do.
2. No camera can ever suit every shooter.

If you're going to criticise something that doesn't even exist yet, you also don't have a full picture of the facts. Some of us are excited for this - I think Canon have nailed a market point to be a lot of people's second camera, and a tool that's not only going to stop a lot of Sony jumpers (not all of them, and that's everyone's individual perogative) and appeal to a lot of newer shooters in their 20s. Bottom line: It's not always all about you.


----------



## dak723 (Sep 2, 2018)

Dvash7 said:


> No IBIS, no Eye AF, no 1080/120, no native 24-70 lens.
> Goodbye Canon, hello Sony!
> I've waited for way too long just for this announcement to decide whether I should make the switch. Canon have definitely made up my mind for me.



Good for you. Bye- bye. I'm sure you will enjoy complainting about Sony color, ergonomics, expensive lenses, poor exposure metering and all their other shortcomings on the Sony forums. But you will have IBIS and eye-AF!


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Well, the Z6 has IBIS (i can live without as i did before, i don't care much) and 12FPS with AF (AE locked but that is less of a problem).




And top speed is only available with compressed RAW or JPG. Just like with EOS R, there is fine print on burst, apparently.

Keep in mind that we haven't the same level of spec specificity with Nikon as with Canon. No major PDF or manual has surfaced on either Nikon camera.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Liverpool FC said:


> The focusing points sounds amazing, which isn't surprising as I'm using the good old 5dii.
> 
> However, just a tiny bit disappointed as there is no confirmation of either Eye-Af or IBIS.
> 
> Can't wait for the price and it's dynamic range.





What, you can afford an $87.4M keeper but you can't afford a recent camera?!

Some global brand you turned out to be.  #ynwa

- A


----------



## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Neuro is our AF expert and I'd imagine he'd have something to say about Fullstop's comment.
> 
> I believe EOS R's AF system will function very well in low light, but Canon appears to have pulled a marketing fast one here -- but just a bit. I've seen sensitivity claims made with everything from f/1.4 to f/2.8 lenses, but here they have indeed made the claim based on a f/1.2 lens.
> 
> ...



Correct. EOS R
EV -6 at f1.2 (from spec sheet)
EV -5 at f1.4 (extrapolated - same brightness on sensor)
EV -4 at f2.0 (extrapolated - same brightness on sensor)
EV -3 at f2.8 (extrapolated - same brightness on sensor)
It looks like this applies to all AF points


5DIV (from manual)
EV -3 at f/2.8 (center AF point only)
EV -4 (f-stop not specified, likely applies to all AF points)

Either way, it is at least as sensitive as the 5DIV AF in the center. This is really really good. 
Canon is showing of a 100-400 with 2x extender (= f11 max aperture). Based on that we can assume that the EOS R AF will focus at f11. 
If this AF is even half decent at tracking, we have a winner.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> Where do we see NO ibis? It's not a full list yet. we just dunno.




Dunno, but that's a reeeeeeeally deep spec list. IBIS would have made that, surely, or it would have shown up secondarily as a condition of battery life or limits of AF function (or something, I'm just riffing here).

They might have snuck in a second card if it was identical -- no need to itemize the specs again for a redundant item. But they specifically listed the weight as:
​_"Approx. 1.46 lbs. / 660g (including battery, SD memory card *[<--as in singular]*; without body cap)"_​
- A


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> According to B&H, Canon sells some 68 EF lenses. RF will soon have _four_.
> 
> As far as ecosystems go, one is a newly formed village and the other is a bustling metropolis.
> 
> ...



I agree the EF mount will not die at least within another decade easily. But my guess is that Canon will not release any more new EF lenses beyond 2021 they will concentrate on the RF lenses. I do think the next DSLRs will be 7D3 and 1Dx3 and 5D5. 90D and 5DsR2 are less probable possibilities. I prefer MILC as replacement for 90D and 5DsR though. In the meantime Canon will build the arsenal of lenses and be ready for pros to take advantage of when the higher end bodies comes out. I would be happy if they replace all the bodies with MILC in the next iteration but I am sure they will not because of the lack of lenses.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Foxeslink said:


> But isnt the pdf with the full details or it can be more?




Looks pretty full to me, but the lack of Eye AF (more a _mode _than something you spec list or quantify, possibly?) and Flash Sync speed (a rock solid 2nd tier spec you'd expect to see on something this granular) implies that we still have a little more to learn about EOS R.

- A


----------



## jasonkayla2 (Sep 2, 2018)

No IBIS and only 5 frames per second in servo... Big pass for me.


----------



## bergstrom (Sep 2, 2018)

Hypothetical, but if I'm filming a catwalk and I'm at 200mm and the models walking towards camera and I'm slowing pulling bck to 70mm or whatever, will the camera stay focused on her the whole time, since there's no eye AF, or did someone say there's facial recognition?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

ken said:


> My guess is they are going to shock you with a US $2200 price, but we'll know soon enough.
> 
> And if this is indeed their entry level FF camera with a low price, it will speak _volumes _about Canon''s interest in moving it's user base to mirrorless (and the the RF mount).




I agree there is an incentive to get folks into the system right now with a discount:

It would keep people loyal. It's hard to flip to a competitor if you just sunk major money into a Canon system


Most people will buy a few RF lenses right out of the gate, which could have higher margins than the body itself. A 6D2 or 5D4, in comparison, doesn't guarantee lens sales as folks may own FF glass already. So a mature FF body portfolio has to be much more rigid on holding price (can't rely nearly as much on lens pullthrough) to be profitable.


They believe they have a highly functioning product, and once people use it they'll be delighted and want more
But -- and this is a huge but -- it's very hard to raise price after you offer something affordable like this. This spec-per-dollar value proposition will be the expectation going forward. So there is absolutely long term financial risk in just giving people what they want (i.e. a $2k FF mirrorless rig).

I'm intrigued on pricing here. My guess is well north of $2k.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

PerKr said:


> This is starting to sound underwhelming. If you guys are right, this looks more like a $1000 camera than a $2000 camera. I hope you're wrong and this is at least on par with the Z6






"At least on par with the Z6"... I can't even.

- A


----------



## mb66energy (Sep 2, 2018)

exkeks said:


> Looking forward to use this lens again as well (Actually, I had the baffle replaced to use it on my 6D).
> 
> But your calculation seems odd. Provided the video crop will be 1,75x, the lens will give you a max eqFOV of 17,5mm (10mm x 1,75).
> 
> With regard to the large image circle of the 10-22mm, I’m interested if the stills crop mode will be “forced” with EF-S lenses or if it will be optional...? Also, the remaining MPix in crop mode will be few (~12MPix). :/



Got it - I wanted to say that the effective APS-C focal length is no longer 10 but 11mm because of the slightly smaller sensor area - in terms of APS-C focal length. Calculating the FF equivalent - the thing you made - is a much simpler and better way: shurely it"s FF equivalent is 17.5mm!


----------



## efmshark (Sep 2, 2018)

EVF resolution?


----------



## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

Yasko said:


> Btw I wouldn‘t expect L lenses to be focus by wire as some are fearing they might be...
> At least that‘s my hope. Why should „all“ new lenses for the RF-Mount be like that?



Its not impossible to make a *good* focus by wire. After all, cars are now steered by wire and airplanes flown by wire... Just my thoughts.


----------



## dak723 (Sep 2, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Given that Olympus has no in-lens stabilised lenses, I'm not sure how they arrived at _that _conclusion...



Olympus has at least two lenses now with lens IS - the 12-100mm and the 300mm PRO. The Olympus IBIS plus IS blows away every other image stabilization that I have used including Sony both for video and stills. Multi-second hand held exposures are possible.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> My worry is what will happen with the M mount. It will obviously not be compatible with RF. My guess is that Canon will keep it as a cheapo system and will release 1 plastic lens per year with M mount. Quite disappointing.




If you want a mad spread of crop-specific higher end glass, it's Fuji or no one.

Everyone else is straddling this crop vs. FF divide, and they all learn one key thing: high end glass for crop doesn't sell well when big brother (FF or FF glass on crop) is an even sexier / future-proofed option.

They days of first party $750+ crop only lenses are highly likely over... unless you go to Fuji.

- A


----------



## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

CanonGrunt said:


> Considering that all the Cinema bodies have EF mount options ( for the lower models it's the only option), I don't think that mount is going anywhere anytime soon. I'd wader that the 1D X line will stay around for a long time in EF, hence the new big white lenses being released. Plus, Video people love the EF lenses. The Panasonic EVA 1, a version of the SONY NEX, RED Cinema, and many of the Black Magic Cameras all have native EF mount options. Not to mention the amount of people I have seen filming on Sony's and GH5's and such with adapters just so they could use EF mount Canon and Zeiss glass. Canon makes too much money in the cinema world for the EF mount to go away anytime soon.



It is not impossible - actually it would make a lot of sense - that future EOS Cinema will have RF mount to enable the use of this new lens lineup. In addition it would make the adaptation of PL mound quite a bit easier..


----------



## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> If you want a mad spread of crop-specific higher end glass, it's Fuji or no one.
> 
> Everyone else is straddling this crop vs. FF divide, and they all learn one key thing: high end glass for crop doesn't sell well when big brother (FF) is an even sexier option.
> 
> ...



True, the question is whether they will keep M at all. Maybe we'll se an RF-S option sooner or later?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

herion said:


> Optically, I think it *IS* possible. Think of corrective lenses for someone that is nearsighted - their focus is ahead of the retina, so lenses are used to "pull" the focus back to where it should be. Sort of like a neutral speedbooster....




Oh, could you pull some optical witchcraft and get it to resolve? Sure.

Could Canon make a lens that could pull a 'student body right' sort of wholesale optical formula shift inside the lens barrel to work on EF? Maybe?

But those reek of painful tradeoffs and shackling of the product's original intentions/goals to pull that EF goal off. Canon would sooner leave that to the Metabones of the world, at which point it's good luck with AF.

- A


----------



## Kit. (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> It is not impossible - actually it would make a lot of sense - that future EOS Cinema will have RF mount to enable the use of this new lens lineup.


And to lose the built-in ND filter rings?


----------



## snappy604 (Sep 2, 2018)

I have to stop reading these rumors  keep going from excited to frustrated to cautiously optimistic to wait and see approach. Its a roller coaster! Its weird to watch some things move forward, and oddly some backwards. I just hope it doesn't end up being another 6d mk II experience


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

fingerstein said:


> Unusable, insane bitrates with recording limits. Maybe motion jpeg, again
> 
> 
> Oh, Canon! We know you can... but you won't, only for a kidney.



No it is not MJPEG. That huge size files are for ALL-I I would bet the video will be of better quality compared to competitors. if you don,t like that size you have a IPB that record 2 hr. 21 min. on a 128gb card


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> The lack of IBIS is what surprised me most, especially as the lenses do not seem to have the 'IS' designation. But maybe this body will be the lower priced one, the higher one will have IBIS and the R lenses announced are designed more for that body?




If you didn't get responded to yet, two lenses have IS in the name (35 Macro / 24-105) and two do not (28-70 / 50).

That alone is not confirmation that IBIS isn't coming, but it is conspicuously absent (along with sync speed and Eye AF) from the spec sheet that leaked. Presently all signs imply a 'no to IBIS' is coming in a few days.

- A


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

snappy604 said:


> I have to stop reading these rumors  keep going from excited to frustrated to cautiously optimistic to wait and see approach. Its a roller coaster! Its weird to watch some things move forward, and oddly some backwards. I just hope it doesn't end up being another 6d mk II experience



I too feel the same way


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Durf said:


> My other guess is that Canon will be leading the FF Mirrorless market within the next 24 months......




Way ahead of you. See punchline at far right.





- A


----------



## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

Kit. said:


> And to lose the built-in ND filter rings?



I guess we'll have to see. There surely is an adapter option 
Disclaimer: this is one of the reasons why I'm surprised that Canon changed the flange distance. It just puts a lot of uncertainty on things.. For example, will we ever see that 50L f1.4 IS or 135L IS? A week ago, my answer would have been a solid "yes", today I think we will rather see RF versions.


----------



## Uneternal (Sep 2, 2018)

Sony was probably like "They never gonna beat those 693 AF poin... 
...
Oh!?"


----------



## Canedo (Sep 2, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> I'll fix it for you - most probably their current sensor tech for stills cameras is not capable to do it at any price point. Unless they have some different chip in their sleeves for a higher end model, don't expect miracles even with more high specced model ....



Thanks for the explanation, started on M6 thinking in the near future would see the 1080p 120fps to go for it, but too many years of waiting and now this when others can do it, depressing...time to look for other options.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

dak723 said:


> Good for you. Bye- bye. I'm sure you will enjoy complainting about Sony color, ergonomics, expensive lenses, poor exposure metering and all their other shortcomings on the Sony forums. But you will have IBIS and eye-AF!




Yeah, we need to come up with a term for folks who actually go from YAPODFC to _actually leaving_. 

Feels like a Sony Rumspringa* to me: kids need to pursue the shiny thing that excites them, figure out what they really need, and then a large number of them will come back to the fold.

- A

*P.S. I do not wish to offend any Amish folks with the above -- I think the metaphor (at a really high level) is quite apt, but if you disagree or took offense to this please send me a DM and I'll pull this down.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Looks pretty full to me, but the lack of Eye AF (more a _mode _than something you spec list or quantify, possibly?) and Flash Sync speed (a rock solid 2nd tier spec you'd expect to see on something this granular) implies that we still have a little more to learn about EOS R.
> 
> - A



Resolution for the EVF is also *conspicously* absent in the spec pdf. It just says OLED, whereas for the rear display resoultion is given (of course in million dots, not in pixels, so divide by 3]. I have learned that specs omitted in marketing materials are never going to wow me. ;-)


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

drama said:


> Let's break down these current dealbreakers, shall we?
> If you're going to criticise something that doesn't even exist yet, you also don't have a full picture of the facts. Some of us are excited for this - I think Canon have nailed a market point to be a lot of people's second camera, and a tool that's not only going to stop a lot of Sony jumpers (not all of them, and that's everyone's individual perogative) and appeal to a lot of newer shooters in their 20s. Bottom line: It's not always all about you.



You are excited so no one else should have any opinion against it? that's what the typical fan boy thinks. "It's not always all about you." Hope that applies to you as well 

I agree there are people bashing Canon OTOH there are people who likes Canon' products and wanted to stay with Canon. They wanted a tool from Canon that suits their style of shooting and make them feel satisfied too. When Canon do not live up to that expectation the rant comes out. I am not arguing Canon should give everything people want in a $2k body what I am pointing out is that even if one want to give canon $4k for a body that has the following in one tool that simply do not exist

Full frame
Shoots 4k
IBIS
DPAF on 4k
Fully articulating touch screen
FHD 120 FPS
Focus peaking
Zebras
4k HDMI out

I hope you agree given the competition that is not too much to ask for at $4k mark but that simply does not exist. One might argue no DSLR or MILC camera exists in the market that can do all of these. Yes that's exactly we want from Canon not playing catch up.


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 2, 2018)

Canedo said:


> Thanks for the explanation, started on M6 thinking in the near future would see the 1080p 120fps to go for it, but too many years of waiting and now this when others can do it, depressing...time to look for other options.



Well, on the other hand, I am no expert on such stuff. I just use some common sense of what I know about product iterations and Canon's willingness to lead the inovation in certain segment. Their Cinema EOS line shows, that they can do better. But - as for stills cameras, their last innovations seem to be DPAF and on-chip ADC. We will see, what EOS-R sensor is all about. Might be as well new generation with promissing future potential.


----------



## drama (Sep 2, 2018)

There's nothing wrong with going to Sony, if you want their camera on balance. If on the other hand you've just mentally made Canon hoops to jump through, and they've instead gone in a different direction, that's very much a _you_ , not them, problem. 

I think The new Nikon and this Eos R, and likely whatever Panasonic are about to put out really muddy the water considerably for new starters. For people with brand-specific glass, each big player just stopped 3/4 of it's haemorrhaging to Sony. Sony remain highly specced but with flaws, at an attractive entry point. That's always going to bring new people in. And while competition exists, it's great for the consumer as it lowers price and drives innovation. None of this is a bad thing.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

efmshark said:


> OVF resolution?



OVF resolution on EOS R is an absolutely dismal zero. Stupid Canon! 

EVF resolution is not specified, which i don't take as a good sign.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> Correct. EOS R
> EV -6 at f1.2 (from spec sheet)
> EV -5 at f1.4 (extrapolated - same brightness on sensor)




Again, I wait for Neuro (to correct me, not you!), but an f/1.2 lens is not a stop brighter than an f/1.4 lens. 

So it's more like:

EV -6 at f1.2 (from spec sheet)​EV -5.5ish at f1.4 (extrapolated - same brightness on sensor)​EV -4.5ish at f2.0 (extrapolated - same brightness on sensor)​EV -3.5ish at f2.8 (extrapolated - same brightness on sensor)​
And yes, all of those are great figures, esp. if it's at any AF point. That's far far better than my 5D3.

But Fullstop is on to something with AF low light sensitivity > _metering _low light sensitivity. That means in really low light we need to be shooting in M to get the most of the AF. Wonder how that would work if I left it in Av: AF would lock but... then what? Would it not take a shot, would it horribly pooch the metering, etc.?

- A


----------



## weixing (Sep 2, 2018)

jasonkayla2 said:


> No IBIS and only 5 frames per second in servo... Big pass for me.


Hi,
IMHO, IBIS doesn't always work well in all lens especially the longer focal length lens.... that's why Sony longer focal length lens also have optical image stabilizer in them. Also, if your camera IBIS stuck or fail, all your lens loss image stabilization.

Have a nice day.

PS: Still waiting for 7D3, but will it become 7DR3 (sound like something in star wars  )???


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## drama (Sep 2, 2018)

> You are excited so no one else should have any opinion against it? that's what the typical fan boy thinks. "It's not always all about you." Hope that apples to you as well



Please show where I've said no-one should have an opinion against it? If you can't differentiate between being pointlessly negative, and cautious speculation / qualified reservations then you're precisely who I'm talking about. For the record, I capped off with a point that if people think Sony offers the best for them, to go get it. I'm system agnostic - I very much enjoy Canon and am looking forward to this being properly announced and reviewed, is all.


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## Hector1970 (Sep 2, 2018)

Why go mirrorless?
Smaller size - Yes the camera appears to be smaller
FPS - 5FPS on AI Servo - Not good
Silent Shutter - I assume it has this
IBIS - No
Eye Focus - No but it has the normal Canon face focus
Not compelling

Why stick with Canon -
The large EF lens collection that you have. The adapter needs to work like a dream.
The assumption that Canon can produce a camera at least on par with Sony - This one isn't
Usability - surely good to use - if not that would be terribly disappointing. Am I correct no toggle key? I personally don't like touch screen Autofocus.

Would I buy a Canon mirrorless camera - yes definitely I would
Will I buy this one - no I think I won't unless detailed reviews tell me something great about the camera that the specs don't show.
They'll have to follow up within the next 6 months with a better camera

Am I disappointed - yes - were my expectation high - well slightly but I wasn't looking for something that's not within Canon's reach (or at least I thought it wasn't).
They've been making digital cameras for years now. Mirrorless shouldn't be that big a leap for them given their M series experience.
I've huge respect for Canon DSLR's and the Lens range.
Maybe they just can't keep up with Sony on mirrorless.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> I agree the EF mount will not die at least within another decade easily. But my guess is that Canon will not release any more new EF lenses beyond 2021 they will concentrate on the RF lenses.




Concentrate surely, abandon no. 

World Cup / Olympics will always see the f/2.8 zoom trinity see regular updates, and I'm guessing we are a solid 3-5 years away from a decent mirrorless 1-series level AF performer being possible (sorry A9, you were only half baked). And even _then_ that camp of photographer will be spectacularly stubborn to say goodbye to the mirror.

EF will keep getting new glass. I expect Canon to stress that at launch of EOS R.

- A


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

drama said:


> There's nothing wrong with going to Sony, if you want their camera on balance. If on the other hand you've just mentally made Canon hoops to jump through, and they've instead gone in a different direction, that's very much a _you_ , not them, problem.
> 
> I think The new Nikon and this Eos R, and likely whatever Panasonic are about to put out really muddy the water considerably for new starters. For people with brand-specific glass, each big player just stopped 3/4 of it's haemorrhaging to Sony. Sony remain highly specced but with flaws, at an attractive entry point. That's always going to bring new people in. And while competition exists, it's great for the consumer as it lowers price and drives innovation. None of this is a bad thing.



What flaws did you find with A9, A7r3 and A73?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> True, the question is whether they will keep M at all. Maybe we'll se an RF-S option sooner or later?




Hmm. Interesting idea. The future mirrorless state of M vs. R is not compatible the way you can put EF lenses directly on EF-S bodies. 

I think too many Ms are now in circulation with the M50 being such a hit. Very hard to walk that back with a change to 'RF-S'. And those RF lenses we're seeing (other than the macro) are not small and would be quite unweieldy unless the M line gets chunky/grippy like an XXD / or 7D, and Canon may want to keep that platform tiny.

So I see M sticking around for some time. (Perhaps an RF-S mount version of a mirrorless 7D3 equivalent someday?)

- A


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> It is not impossible - actually it would make a lot of sense - that future EOS Cinema will have RF mount to enable the use of this new lens lineup. In addition it would make the adaptation of PL mound quite a bit easier..





Kit. said:


> And to lose the built-in ND filter rings?




RF for Cine?

I'm not a video guy (as in at all), but how would the manually focusing cine world like (potentially) all FBW lenses that can't be declicked?

- A


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Uneternal said:


> Sony was probably like "They never gonna beat those 693 AF poin...
> ...
> Oh!?"




Claims on AF points in mirrorless are like when Nikon claimed ISO 3+ million on the D5. We'll never select all these AF points. Potentially, some 'fidelity of AF' related algorithms (Eye AF, I'm looking at you, also potentially automated-in-camera auto focus stacking algorithm down the road) this _could _matter, but it's possible Eye AF is decoupled from discrete AF point selection already.

I fully expect Sony to make an even more idiotic claims with the a7 IV bodies in response -- 500,000 AF point cameras are coming. Sony will not be out-spec-sheeted -- this is their #1 entrenched platform strength. 

- A


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## drama (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> What flaws did you find with A9, A7r3 and A73?



The same ones everyone else does - not a fan of the color array, battery life is crap, and I prefer Canon glass. Overheating, lower build quality etc etc etc.

There's plenty to recommend them - they have great specs and are affordable.


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Concentrate surely, abandon no.
> 
> World Cup / Olympics will always see the f/2.8 zoom trinity see regular updates, and I'm guessing we are a solid 3-5 years away from a decent mirrorless 1-series level AF performer being possible (sorry A9, you were only half baked). And even _then_ that camp of photographer will be spectacularly stubborn to say goodbye to the mirror.
> 
> ...



Sure Canon will stress they are committed to EF eco system at the EOS R launch for sure as far as stubborn there will be always at least 3 categories of people in every industry

1) Early adopters they just jump over to the latest and greatest of the technology does not think about possible flaws.
2) Wait to see how that works and get on-boarded once they know it is good enough or at least the down sides do not severely hamper them
3) The grumpy ones, the old tech is very good, I am familiar with it, the new tech is just a joke, in this case I like the DSLR... blah... blah... blah... who needs a kick in the butt to switch over

No matter what at this point it is clear at least to me MILC is the future and DSLR and EF mount will be decimated but not any time soon. I am talking may be 2 decades from now.

Just curious what are the flaws you found with a9? Have you used one? I have one and I like it everyway better than 5D4. The only thing limits me on the Sony eco system is the long tele lenses but my EF 600 f/4L IS USM works well with Sigma MC-11 granted I use the 600mm on my 5D4 more than a9 at this point.


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## bwud (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> What flaws did you find with A9, A7r3 and A73?



I use a 7rIII. Flaws include, but are not limited to:
*It’s too short by about 1/2”
*The controls, while immeasurably better than the previous generation, are laggy (trying to quickly dial a different aperture/shutterspeed/ISO is frustrating compared to the experience with canon cameras
*Struggles to track focus out of plane, and in low light

I disagree with the previous comment about battery life. I can easily shoot all day with maybe 1.25 batteries (I use the grip)


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## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Again, I wait for Neuro (to correct me, not you!), but an f/1.2 lens is not a stop brighter than an f/1.4 lens.
> 
> So it's more like:
> 
> ...



Yikes, no intention to "correct", rather supporting with some data - happy for Neuro to chime in.
I rounded the .5 stop down (vs. -ish) to support "at least as good as 5DIV in the center".

Regarding metering
EOS R: -3 to 20
EOS 5D IV: 0 to 20
Both at ISO 100 equivalent, neither defines an F-stop (the EV definition refers to f1.0).
So yes, manual is needed for best results at very low light - still, a lot less than the 5DIV.

Cheers,
MP

Source
https://www.canon.com.cy/cameras/eos-5d-mark-iv/specifications/


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

drama said:


> I think The new Nikon and this Eos R, and likely whatever Panasonic are about to put out really muddy the water considerably for new starters. For people with brand-specific glass, each big player just stopped 3/4 of it's haemorrhaging to Sony. Sony remain highly specced but with flaws, at an attractive entry point. That's always going to bring new people in. And while competition exists, it's great for the consumer as it lowers price and drives innovation. None of this is a bad thing.




Agree, Canon and Nikon needed their own native offering for their own users. I'm *[edit -->] not* convinced Canon was hemorrhaging at all -- their market share hasn't even blinked.

But I think a lot of long-time Canon folks were waiting on the sidelines and this announcement will trigger immense market activity. However, _some _of that market activity will be in Sony's direction. Many many many folks will get in on this EOS R, but some internet enthusiasts or pros who really wanted a core 'it's there or it's not' feature that didn't materialize may actually jump to Sony now that the call has been made.

But in no uncertain terms, Sony's about to take two knuckle sandwiches to the face in the market -- regardless of spec advantages or a new super spiffy A7 IV they are fast-tracking. Isengard is unleashed: huge, huge numbers of photographers from Canon and Nikon are about to jump into the FF mirorrless market and clobber Sony's market share. Their days of being the only (non-Leica-priced) show in town are over.

- A


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

drama said:


> The same ones everyone else does - not a fan of the color array, battery life is crap, and I prefer Canon glass. Overheating, lower build quality etc etc etc.
> 
> There's plenty to recommend them - they have great specs and are affordable.



Not everyone else, please try not to generalize the entire world

color I have no problem with my a9 and a7r3
Battery life the a9, a7r3 and a73 may even beat the upcoming Canon. Sounds for sure from the specs. Sounds like you slept probably 18 months ago and still dreaming. Wake up world has changed add have new exciting technologies 
Overheating When was the last time you heard the a9, a7r3 and a73 over heated? While I do not shoot 4k regularly I have shot videos up to 29 minutes on both a9 and a7r3 never had over heating issue
Build quality, yes their weather sealing in not on par with CaNikon but otherwise not that bad
Prefer Canon glass that is your personal preferance that does not mean Sony lenses are bad. Infact I prefer using a7r3, a9 and GM 100-400 combo because i get better sharp picture out of sony combo over 5D4 EF 100-400 v2 combo almost every single time.

all in all your complaints sound like a Canon fan boy and nothign more than that.


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## drama (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Not everyone else, please try not to generalize the entire world



This seems needlessly aggressive, and taken in bad faith. But for clarity, when I say "everyone else" I mean "people who have reviewed or worked with the cameras and found things they didn't like." Again, no one camera system works for everyone.



> color I have no problem with my a9 and a7r3
> Battery life the a9, a7r3 and a73 may even beat the upcoming Canon. Sounds for sure from the specs. Sounds like you slept probably 18 months ago and still dreaming. Wake up world has changed add have new exciting technologies
> Overheating When was the last time you heard the a9, a7r3 and a73 over heated? While I do not shoot 4k regularly I have shot videos up to 29 minutes on both a9 and a7r3 never had over heating issue
> Build quality, yes their weather sealing in not on par with CaNikon but otherwise not that bad
> ...



And there we are. When it's all done, you've called me "fanboy" multiple times, seem incredibly, pointlessly negative and aggressive about Canon and yet you yourself are heavily invested in the Sony ecosystem, and pre-defensive at any (valid) criticism. I think we're done here.


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Why go mirrorless?
> Smaller size - Yes the camera appears to be smaller
> FPS - 5FPS on AI Servo - Not good
> Silent Shutter - I assume it has this
> ...




Love how the mirrorless value proposition is defined by such a narrow set of musts -- many of which weren't even considerations until Sony started offering them. 

So I've got a few more reasons to go mirrorless, and Canon (and Nikon) will nail these:

Ability to shoot without mirror slap = yes​Ability to get a histo in the VF = surely​Ability to show stopped down DOF in the VF = surely​Ability to amplify light in the VF in dark rooms = not listed on the sheet, but surely this is possible​Ability to manually focus in the VF in the era of focusing screens dying off = sure​Ability to adapt other lenses = surely, but not immediately at launch (need 3rd party to help)​Ability to use the glass I already own = surely​
For those reasons, the idea that EOS R or Z6/Z7 is a fail b/c of some vital feature or two being missing is nuts. These cameras will work well, sell well, and flourish (provided there's not a day one quality disaster on their hands, adaptors work as intended, etc.).

Remember, this first gen isn't aimed at accomplishing parity with Sony, stealing immense market share or allowing Canon/Nikon folks to be 'proud of their company like they used to'. Their goal is *to sell their own people something* that looks / feels familiar, unlocks the opportunity to pitch the mirror and get smaller, etc. I think both will largely succeed at that goal.

- A


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

bwud said:


> I use a 7rIII. Flaws include, but are not limited to:
> *It’s too short by about 1/2”
> *The controls, while immeasurably better than the previous generation, are laggy (trying to quickly dial a different aperture/shutterspeed/ISO is frustrating compared to the experience with canon cameras
> *Struggles to track focus out of plane, and in low light
> ...



I agree there is no space for pinky on the Sony bodies and I also use grip but I can live with that.
On the controls if you are truly interested I will get you the way I have set that up in my a7r3. I do not feel any lacking when compared to 5D4
If you are comparing AF in low light with a DSLR it lacks a tiny bit but that was in my lab type setting. I am yet to come across a practical scenario where a7r3 would not focus in the last 7 months I have been using it. Even if it is to me the Pros out weigh the cons of a7r3 and a9. Don't get me wrong I did not liked Sony's until their 3rd gens came out. I do not consider their first gen and second gen are competitive but the 3rd gen changed it all.


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## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Not everyone else, please try not to generalize the entire world
> 
> color I have no problem with my a9 and a7r3
> Battery life the a9, a7r3 and a73 may even beat the upcoming Canon. Sounds for sure from the specs. Sounds like you slept probably 18 months ago and still dreaming. Wake up world has changed add have new exciting technologies
> ...



I second Drama's list - especially color! and build quality - and add ergonomics.
Still there is nothing "wrong" with Sony cams and everyone should use the tool that works best with the features most relevant to him/here.

On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that a7r3, a9 + GM 100-400 can outperform a 5D4 EF 100-400 v2 by a relevant margin (or actually at all). What type of fotography are we talking about? It may be user error (no offense intended - just listing potential issues), AFMA, or if it is neither, I'd have that combo checked by CPS.


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Just curious what are the flaws you found with a9? Have you used one? I have one and I like it everyway better than 5D4. The only thing limits me on the Sony eco system is the long tele lenses but my EF 600 f/4L IS USM works well with Sigma MC-11 granted I use the 600mm on my 5D4 more than a9 at this point.




Never shot it myself, but a 5 fps max mechanical shutter in a 20 fps camera seemed to tell me that Sony wanted more to show that such a 24x20 camera was possible rather than ready for primetime.

They also had some e-shutter color banding problems, did they not?

I see that camera as a showhorse and not a workhorse like the A7 III / A7R III appear to be. A9 is a shot across the bow that a mirrorless rig could someday supplant even the highest end SLRs, i.e. 'Look out Canon, we'll be putting more piranhas in the water like this before too long'. I see it as a symbolic product offering much more than future pillar of the platform.

- A


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## bwud (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> I agree there is no space for pinky on the Sony bodies and I also use grip but I can live with that.
> On the controls if you are truly interested I will get you the way I have set that up in my a7r3. I do not feel any lacking when compared to 5D4
> If you are comparing AF in low light with a DSLR it lacks a tiny bit but that was in my lab type setting. I am yet to come across a practical scenario where a7r3 would not focus in the last 7 months I have been using it. Even if it is to me the Pros out weigh the cons of a7r3 and a9. Don't get me wrong I did not liked Sony's until their 3rd gens came out. I do not consider their first gen and second gen are competitive but the 3rd gen changed it all.



I have aperture on the top rear dial, shutter speed in the top front dial, and ISO on the wheel. It’s the wheel specifically which I find laggy. 

I often shoot flash photography without modeling lamps, and find the camera struggles much more so than my 5Diii. It’s much better than the 7rii, however.


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> I agree there is no space for pinky on the Sony bodies and I also use grip but I can live with that.
> On the controls if you are truly interested I will get you the way I have set that up in my a7r3. I do not feel any lacking when compared to 5D4
> If you are comparing AF in low light with a DSLR it lacks a tiny bit but that was in my lab type setting. I am yet to come across a practical scenario where a7r3 would not focus in the last 7 months I have been using it. Even if it is to me the Pros out weigh the cons of a7r3 and a9. Don't get me wrong I did not liked Sony's until their 3rd gens came out. I do not consider their first gen and second gen are competitive but the 3rd gen changed it all.




I eagerly await L-R finger space measurements with a (pick any stout pro lens) mounted on the A7 / Z / R platforms. 

This should never happen in a camera (taken from TDP). This is a failure of design that Sony continues to resist fixing (either for cost or for a diehard commitment to keeping things small):

​
Just to my eye (we need to get one and try it) Canon appears to have left more room between the mount and the grip. If so, that's very wise call.

- A


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## Kit. (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Claims on AF points in mirrorless are like when Nikon claimed ISO 3+ million on the D5. We'll never select all these AF points. Potentially, some 'fidelity of AF' related algorithms (Eye AF, I'm looking at you, also potentially automated-in-camera auto focus stacking algorithm down the road) this _could _matter, but it's possible Eye AF is decoupled from discrete AF point selection already.
> 
> I fully expect Sony to make an even more idiotic claims with the a7 IV bodies in response -- 500,000 AF point cameras are coming. Sony will not be out-spec-sheeted -- this is their #1 entrenched platform strength.


I am not sure they do have so many PDAF sensors.



ahsanford said:


> Ability to get a histo in the EVF = surely


I would prefer ability to get a histo in the OVF. It is possible, and would be the best of both worlds.



goldenhusky said:


> Prefer Canon glass that is your personal preferance that does not mean Sony lenses are bad. Infact I prefer using a7r3, a9 and GM 100-400 combo because i get better sharp picture out of sony combo over 5D4 EF 100-400 v2 combo almost every single time.


By the way, how do you carry 100-400 on a camera body when not shooting? I just hold camera with fingers by the grip and let the rest of the hand relax. It is more comfortable than on the neck strap, and I can carry it this way for hours.

Does it work with Sony bodies?


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## djack41 (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Love how the mirrorless value proposition is defined by such a narrow set of musts -- many of which weren't even considerations until Sony started offering them.
> 
> So I've got a few more reasons to go mirrorless, and Canon (and Nikon) will nail these:
> 
> ...


How do you know Canon's aim and goals with this camera? Stop the lecture.


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## bwud (Sep 2, 2018)

Kit. said:


> By the way, how do you carry 100-400 on a camera body when not shooting? I just hold camera with fingers by the grip and let the rest of the hand relax. It is more comfortable than on the neck strap, and I can carry it this way for hours.
> 
> Does it work with Sony bodies?



Not without the vertical grip.


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

djack41 said:


> How do you know Canon's aim and goals with this camera? Stop the lecture.




Because Canon is a broken record on its goals. Canon wants to be profitable and (at least in FF mirrorless) selling to its existing customers is far and away the easiest way to do that in the near term. Is that even a debate? If so, let's discuss. 

- A


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## Talys (Sep 2, 2018)

bwud said:


> I have aperture on the top rear dial, shutter speed in the top front dial, and ISO on the wheel. It’s the wheel specifically which I find laggy.
> 
> I often shoot flash photography without modeling lamps, and find the camera struggles much more so than my 5Diii. It’s much better than the 7rii, however.



This is exactly my scenario and experience. In addition, the wired and wireless tethering and remote shooting to a PC on the A7R3 is much inferior to the tools that Canon offers. The tools for tethering to an Android tablet on a Canon are much better too, but it's an academic point to me as I always tether to a PC.



bwud said:


> Not without the vertical grip.



Yes, exactly. On Canon DSLR body -- pick any -- you can mount a 100-400 and the camera can just rest with your fingers on the grip. On a Sony 7/9, you need the vertical grip for this. In general, the vertical grip is just fine, as the camera is diminutive anyways. However, it raises lens mount, such that the camera no longer rests nicely on a table, unless you put it down sideways. It would have been much nicer for Sony to have just made the 7/9 at least a half inch taller, as I don't think there are many adults that wouldn't find the grip too short.


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## Pansottin (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Ability to manually focus in the VF in the era of focusing screens dying off = sure



How? With what kind of help that is different from my 5DIV? Thanks.


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## Yasko (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> Its not impossible to make a *good* focus by wire. After all, cars are now steered by wire and airplanes flown by wire... Just my thoughts.



Airplanes by wire... a reason why Air France Flight 447 crashed over the Atlantic, because the captain didn‘t realise that his second officer was still in command of the rudder and continuously stalling the plane although he told him to give rudder control to him. In my eyes it‘s a mistake by Airbus and concerning lenses:
Lenses are not only a tool but also something magnificient and „emotional“ (for me as a hobbyist at least). That just goes better with a premium-feel mechanical lens without electronics that solely drive and steer the focus system without the possibility for manual focus. As I said, that‘s my feel. I like to drive the focus also when I have the lens disconnected from a camera for example...
For example we already used standard Nikon lenses built in in scientific setups without a camera but only socketed to a c mount adapter on a completely different camera that would otherwise not be possible to focus.


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## Durf (Sep 2, 2018)

Talys said:


> This is exactly my scenario and experience. In addition, the wired and wireless tethering and remote shooting to a PC on the A7R3 is much inferior to the tools that Canon offers. The tools for tethering to an Android tablet on a Canon are much better too, but it's an academic point to me as I always tether to a PC.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, exactly. On Canon DSLR body -- pick any -- you can mount a 100-400 and the camera can just rest with your fingers on the grip. On a Sony 7/9, you need the vertical grip for this. In general, the vertical grip is just fine, as the camera is diminutive anyways. However, it raises lens mount, such that the camera no longer rests nicely on a table, unless you put it down sideways. It would have been much nicer for Sony to have just made the 7/9 at least a half inch taller, as I don't think there are many adults that wouldn't find the grip too short.



I carry my Sigma 150-600 by the grip alone on my 80D while casually walking around......the 80D grip can handle it. If I'm trudgin through the woods or walking through rough stuff I'll carry it by the tripod collar. Canon's DSLR's are built tough!!!!!


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I eagerly await L-R finger space measurements with a (pick any stout pro lens) mounted on the A7 / Z / R platforms.
> 
> This should never happen in a camera (taken from TDP). This is a failure of design that Sony continues to resist fixing (either for cost or for a diehard commitment to keeping things small):
> 
> ...



Agreed on ergonomics, Sony need to improve. Speaking of this specific problem, my fingers fits in and not rubbing the lens but they are so close. I am not saying since this is not a problem for me no one else should have a problem with it. To be fair I do not own the 24-70 f/2.8 GM lens. I had the Canon EF 24-70 f/28L II until last month. I got rid of it because I am in the process of getting rid of some of the Canon stuff. I applaud Canon for not doing this mistake, in general Canon is great from a ergonomics perspecitve. Sony continues to address the feedback they get from the users. On that regard I will bet more on Sony will change this in their next iteration than what I can bet on Canon will implement good 4k video specs on the next generation of cameras. In Canon's case the corporate greed and arrogance takes lead over delivering what customers want. I am not saying other corporates are not greedy (in my books all corporates are greedy) but some at least listen to feedback. Canon's case absolutely no.


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

bwud said:


> I have aperture on the top rear dial, shutter speed in the top front dial, and ISO on the wheel. It’s the wheel specifically which I find laggy.
> 
> I often shoot flash photography without modeling lamps, and find the camera struggles much more so than my 5Diii. It’s much better than the 7rii, however.



I have the shutter speed on the rear dial and the aperture on the front dial and ISO on the control wheel like you. However I do not find the ISO wheel lagging. I have taken 6742 photos on a7r3 as of this morning  Not to brag just to give you an idea how much I have used it. That tells me either it is really lagging but not to the level that bothers me or copy to copy variance or a firmware issue. I am using firmware 1.10 you might want to check yours.


----------



## jasonkayla2 (Sep 2, 2018)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> IMHO, IBIS doesn't always work well in all lens especially the longer focal length lens.... that's why Sony longer focal length lens also have optical image stabilizer in them. Also, if your camera IBIS stuck or fail, all your lens loss image stabilization.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> ...



Your right, but it is still better to have it than not. More important to me is the 5fps in servo mode. I am big into bird in flight photography and other fast moving subjects. I will probably wait for their other model presumably pro model to come out. Hopefully it will have higher specs/FPS.
In general, this new camera will probably work great, just not what I want in specs. My 5D mark iv has better FPS and so does my 7D2. Again agree with you....wait for the 7D3.


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## photogdan (Sep 2, 2018)

ecpu said:


> I might be finally jumping ship as well. But I've waited a long time at this point and will definitely give them the benefit of the doubt and wait for independent reviews.. and the full release so we can know the official 100% spec list.



The last wait cycle for me was long too. Then they released the 6DII 

Doesn't seem all the wishful thinking and waiting will ever get us the features we want. Canon can sell camera's with no shutter button and people will still buy them. They have no incentive to deliver. 

It's time. I moved on. I just regret not doing it sooner.


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## Aaron D (Sep 2, 2018)

I'm totally cool with there being no IBIS—I want to see my sensor bolted down; let the lenses do what they do specific to each. But the single card slot isn't so cool. Maybe this is a 6D equivilant and a future 5D equivalent will be more like 50mp and have two slots…. 

And maybe there will be a less exotic 28-70 at 2.8 and a few pounds more compact. 95mm filters?! Yikes!


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> I second Drama's list - especially color! and build quality - and add ergonomics.
> Still there is nothing "wrong" with Sony cams and everyone should use the tool that works best with the features most relevant to him/here.
> 
> On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that a7r3, a9 + GM 100-400 can outperform a 5D4 EF 100-400 v2 by a relevant margin (or actually at all). What type of fotography are we talking about? It may be user error (no offense intended - just listing potential issues), AFMA, or if it is neither, I'd have that combo checked by CPS.



I use it for birding. I do AFMA in all my lenses that I use on 5D4 I believe the difference I see are 1) no AA filter, gets more detail and sharpness 2) it is 42mp I can get a bigger size image after cropping 3) slighly better shadow recovery. I am not proclaiming this is how everyone should feel but saying how I feel about the results. At the end of the day just go with the gear that gets the best results to your eyes and makes you happy. Especially in my case I am an enthusiast. I look at my results from either tool and to me I get better out of the Sony. Some might Say Canon has 50mp 5DsR with AA filter cancelling. I rented it for a week and tried I could not stand the noise.


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## photogdan (Sep 2, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Could anybody explain what's the hype about the lack of [email protected]? Are people really using it so widely?


I only shoot stills so I don't use it. It's just that anything less is considered old technology since most competitors include it.


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## kstphotography (Sep 2, 2018)

photogdan said:


> I only shoot stills so I don't use it. It's just that anything less is considered old technology since most competitors include it.


It seem to me that nowadays if one camera has a feature, people expect all other cameras in the same price bracket to have it, and it doesn't matter if the majority of people don't use it. If one camera doesn't have it, it is an epic failure and no way people should buy it.


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## photogdan (Sep 2, 2018)

bwud said:


> I use a 7rIII. Flaws include, but are not limited to:
> *It’s too short by about 1/2”
> *The controls, while immeasurably better than the previous generation, are laggy (trying to quickly dial a different aperture/shutterspeed/ISO is frustrating compared to the experience with canon cameras
> *Struggles to track focus out of plane, and in low light
> ...



The Smallrig L bracket adds the 1/2" for your pinky without adding much weight. I use it without the vertical piece. Works great and only cost around $50.


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## photogdan (Sep 2, 2018)

kstphotography said:


> It seem to me that nowadays if one camera has a feature, people expect all other cameras in the same price bracket to have it, and it doesn't matter if the majority of people don't use it. If one camera doesn't have it, it is an epic failure and no way people should buy it.


It's not fair and probably not the best way to distinguish one brand from another but it's especially true when it comes to technology.


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## Don Haines (Sep 2, 2018)

it’s a nice camera, could have been better, could have been worse. My prediction is that it will sell quite well.

I rather doubt that I will get one, as to me personally, it offers no significant benefits over what I shoot with now... but let’s see what the future brings......


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## goldenhusky (Sep 2, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> it’s a nice camera, could have been better, could have been worse. My prediction is that it will sell quite well.
> 
> I rather doubt that I will get one, as to me personally, it offers no significant benefits over what I shoot with now... but let’s see what the future brings......



no doubt the EOS R will sell well


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## Foxeslink (Sep 2, 2018)

To me the most advantage of this new sistem is that there is no mirror, and being a portrait/fashion photographer you dont have to be concern if the Lens os calibrated or not. No more missing eye focus with 1.2 Apertures. I mean, because of the lens.


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## CanonGrunt (Sep 2, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> Again same question here. For B-roll, you need multi-camera setup, and doing so, you need cameras with time code in and out, which is something that most of photography oriented cameras are not capable of. Furthermore, editing is time consuming because of precises insertion the scenes between takes. Therefore, it is definitely not for a one-person-show vloggers and not for everyday photographers.




Well, B Cam in a multi cam set up is different than B roll, which is a single camera for establishing shots, filler and such. I assume they meant the second.. But if you are looking at B Cam, then not likely.


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## Talys (Sep 2, 2018)

Quackator said:


> It looks like there is no need for it anymore, since the
> distance is projected inside the EVF or on the back LCD.
> 
> This will likely be more precise than engraved on the lens barrel.


This does not allow you to set the focus to approximately what you want without looking through the lens or at the display. It is helpful when birding, for example, to set the lens to "about 25 meters" -- something I can do all the time when birding. The larger issue is that they're likely to be focus by wire lenses, which may preclude setting focus at "a little less than infinity" or "about that far from MFD" entirely by feel. Some (but not many) focus by wire lenses have physical stops at MFD/infinity which makes that a somewhat less of an issue.


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## sebakunstpaul (Sep 2, 2018)

I was waiting for this release for a good while, having allot of hopes as i am Canon shooter on crop for the moment. I own Canon EF and EF-S lenses and vintage glass, M42 Carl Zeiss, Pentacon and C/Y Yashica ML lenses. This release is the decisive moment to choose between Canon body or Sony in stepping up to full frame; IBIS and focus peaking were my main expectations from this camera along EF (and EF-S) compatibility... also custom buttons. I will wait till the official announcement but It appears i am forced to choose Sony. The 1 card is not really a main deal braker for me, yet i find silly that after Sony responded to the market feedback implementing redundancy in all new FF cameras, the industry giants just ignore this fact... I am tempted to feel more confident in a company that listen to the customer feedback and needs, compared to companies that do what they want. I am not a fanboy of any brand, i just need specific features. I will probably stick to Canon glass since is good and less expenssive than Sony glass.


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## CanonGrunt (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> It is not impossible - actually it would make a lot of sense - that future EOS Cinema will have RF mount to enable the use of this new lens lineup. In addition it would make the adaptation of PL mound quite a bit easier..



True. Maybe we will see new Cinema body with an RF mount at NAB this year, but probably not till next year at the earliest. I do like that with the adapter you can still use all the EF glass. I have never been a fan of PL mounts. We use them a lot on the ARRIs, but I've never liked that mount.


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## Pansottin (Sep 2, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> I was waiting for this release for a good while, having allot of hopes as i am Canon shooter on crop for the moment. I own Canon EF and EF-S lenses and vintage glass, M42 Carl Zeiss, Pentacon and C/Y Yashica ML lenses. This release is the decisive moment to choose between Canon body or Sony in stepping up to full frame; IBIS and focus peaking were my main expectations from this camera along EF (and EF-S) compatibility. I will wait till the official announcement but It appears i am forced to choose Sony. The 1 card is not really a main deal braker for me, yet i find silly that after Sony responded to the market feedback implementing redundancy in all new FF cameras, the industry giants just ignore this fact... I am tempted to feel more confident in a company that listen to the customer feedback and needs, campared to companies that do what they want. I am not a fanboy of any brand, i just need features. I will probably stick to Canon glass since is good and less expenssive than Sony glass.



Like me. Three manual Zeiss classic lens to focus. ;-(
The Focus Assist on the C300 II is really nice with manual lenses; Zeiss and Canon. I was hoping at least peaking...


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## Don Haines (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> no doubt the EOS R will sell well


Yes....

I think of this as the M equivalent of their FF cameras, and like the M, I expect it to capture a (the?) dominant spot in the market.... I also expect to see a regular sized mirrorless body with higher specs come out in the next year or so, and that’s when I jump....


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

Sorry Don. EOS M (1st gen) did NOT capture the market. It was seriously underspecced and had to be firesold for 299 including kit lens. What saved Canon's ass were the EF-M lenses. Decent IQ, small size, very affordable price. RF lenses are exactly the opposite on the last 2 items. And EOS R looks underspecced as well, now that we see more of the caveats and fine print. So I don't think it work as well for Canon FF mirrorfree this time.

Looking forward to see what Pana brings to the table. Then we got 5 FF mirrorfree suppliers and about 10 different new/current bodies. I like.


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## Pansottin (Sep 2, 2018)

Is there Focus Peaking on the M50?


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> Correct. EOS R
> EV -6 at f1.2 (from spec sheet)
> EV -5 at f1.4 (extrapolated - same brightness on sensor)
> EV -4 at f2.0 (extrapolated - same brightness on sensor)
> EV -3 at f2.8 (extrapolated - same brightness on sensor)



That's not accurate.
+1 stop to f1.2 - f1.8 (EV -5)
+1 stop to f1.8 - f2.5 (EV -4)
+1 stop to f2.5 - f3.5 (EV -3)


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## photogdan (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Sorry Don. EOS M (1sdt gen) did NOT capture the market. It was DOA. What saved Canon's ass were the EF-M lenses. Decent IQ, small size, low pirce. RF lenses are exactly the opposite on the last 2 items. And EOS R looks underspecced as well, now that we see more of the caveats and fine print.


2nd gen was also doa. 3rd gen was better. They finally got it right with the 4th gen M5.


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## AaronT (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> I use it for birding. I do AFMA in all my lenses that I use on 5D4 I believe the difference I see are 1) no AA filter, gets more detail and sharpness 2) it is 42mp I can get a bigger size image after cropping 3) slighly better shadow recovery. I am not proclaiming this is how everyone should feel but saying how I feel about the results. At the end of the day just go with the gear that gets the best results to your eyes and makes you happy. Especially in my case I am an enthusiast. I look at my results from either tool and to me I get better out of the Sony. Some might Say Canon has 50mp 5DsR with AA filter cancelling. I rented it for a week and tried I could not stand the noise.


Too much noise? I have the 5DsR. I can take a properly exposed shot at 1600 ISO and print it at 24x36 without any noise showing. And it is SHARP. Did you shoot at 100 ISO and try to recover 5 stops of shadow? If so, your Sony might be better.


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## Durf (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Sorry Don. EOS M (1sdt gen) did NOT capture the market. It was DOA. What saved Canon's ass were the EF-M lenses. Decent IQ, small size, low pirce. RF lenses are exactly the opposite on the last 2 items. And EOS R looks underspecced as well, now that we see more of the caveats and fine print.



Keep yer eyes peeled FullThrottle! This camera will likely be the biggest seller of 2018 and there's only 3-1/2 months left of the year.....

Then when Canon pulls out their mega-beast FF Mirrorless flagship they will then within a short period of time after that release be masters of the FF Mirrorless market. (sorry Sony & Nikon, Canon is steppin up their game).


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

Durf said:


> Keep yer eyes peeled FullThrottle! This camera will likely be the biggest seller of 2018 and there's only 3-1/2 months left of the year.....



lol. They will not catch Sony A7 II sales in 2018. Not with this one. Unless they offer it for USD 999,-
And 2019 will be tough on this thingie, because Nikon Z6 is better and Z7 even more so.
And Canon RF lenses neither smaller/lighter nor less expensive than Sony or Nikon.


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## blackcoffee17 (Sep 2, 2018)

What happened with the other 3 lenses? The EF-M 32mm and the big whites. No images?


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## Durf (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> lol. They will not catch Sony A7 II sales in 2018. Not with this one. Unless they offer it for USD 999,-
> And 2019 will be tough on this thingie, because Nikon Z6 is better and Z7 even more so.
> And Canon RF lenses neither smaller/lighter nor less expensive than Sony or Nikon.



We'll see, I think people will go for this simply because of the forward facing tilty touch screen, DPAF w/face-tracking, and 4K at 30fps. It's a vloggers dream and looks like it'll be a really decent stills camera too......as for lenses? who cares? Most already have lenses that'll work on it. Looks like you can even snap on a 10-18mm EF-S lens if necessary.

This camera will fly off the shelves IMO (especially if it comes in around 2000.00)


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## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's not accurate.
> +1 stop to f1.2 - f1.8 (EV -5)
> +1 stop to f1.8 - f2.5 (EV -4)
> +1 stop to f2.5 - f3.5 (EV -3)


.. it was rounded down..


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> I am not saying other corporates are not greedy (in my books all corporates are greedy) but some at least listen to feedback. Canon's case absolutely no.




The same could absolutely be said about Sony folding its arms to folks who want a comfortable grip with ample finger spacing from the mount. And to do this with the A9 -- built for action and heavy lens use -- is just downright cheapskate.







- A


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## bhf3737 (Sep 2, 2018)

CanonGrunt said:


> Well, B Cam in a multi cam set up is different than B roll, which is a single camera for establishing shots, filler and such. I assume they meant the second.. But if you are looking at B Cam, then not likely.


Well, my argument was that "a photo-oriented camera must have [email protected]" is baseless and dismissing a photo camera based on that is meaningless. 
Taking multiple shots (regardless of being B-roll or taken by B-cam), can enhance story telling, at the expense of more preparation and editing time. But it does not need to be 120p to achieve that.


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

Talys said:


> This does not allow you to set the focus to approximately what you want without looking through the lens or at the display. It is helpful when birding, for example, to set the lens to "about 25 meters" -- something I can do all the time when birding. The larger issue is that they're likely to be focus by wire lenses, which may preclude setting focus at "a little less than infinity" or "about that far from MFD" entirely by feel. Some (but not many) focus by wire lenses have physical stops at MFD/infinity which makes that a somewhat less of an issue.




One thing mirrorless will never do for birders is serve as a spotting scope _without using any battery_.

- A


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> What happened with the other 3 lenses? The EF-M 32mm and the big whites. No images?




Right! We should see those any day now.

- A


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## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Sorry Don. EOS M (1st gen) did NOT capture the market. It was seriously underspecced and had to be firesold for 299 including kit lens. What saved Canon's ass were the EF-M lenses. Decent IQ, small size, very affordable price. RF lenses are exactly the opposite on the last 2 items. And EOS R looks underspecced as well, now that we see more of the caveats and fine print. So I don't think it work as well for Canon FF mirrorfree this time.
> 
> Looking forward to see what Pana brings to the table. Then we got 5 FF mirrorfree suppliers and about 10 different new/current bodies. I like.



Can you elaborate how this cam is underspecced? If it does everything on this speclist well, i dont see an issue with photo. Then, it also beats Sony and Panasonic on their own field, the video capabilities..


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## PureClassA (Sep 2, 2018)

We can only assume certain aspects of the sensor at this point, unless one would assume this alleged spec list is “complete”. It may or may not have IBIS. It may or may not be back lit (i’m wondering with this utterly insane -6EV AF capability.... holy crap... again). Folks please stop making the knee jerk assumption that because something doesnt appear on this rumored/alleged spec list, that it wont be there. Again, it might be. Or, it might not be. Until Canon makes the full roster of specs official by their own hand, this all purely academic. Chill. Have fun. Fun is what this site all about. And the Craig and the crew do yomen’s work delivering it all. Stop and say “thank you” once in a while


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## reef58 (Sep 2, 2018)

mariosk9gr said:


> Truly disappointed!! Canon will never learn! FHD 120fps, IBIS and dual SD slots should be standard at least! Im very angry right now!!



Standard for what? You don't even know at this point where this camera is going to fall in their lineup. You don't know Canon's intentions with this release. This camera could be used to gain market share, or maintain market share. Seems to be the only full frame 4k camera with an articulating screen. That in itself is going to sell units. With the lenses announced I think Canon intends to release some serious R Mount cameras in the future.


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## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> Can you elaborate how this cam is underspecced? If it does everything on this speclist well, i dont see an issue with photo. Then, it also beats Sony and Panasonic on their own field, the video capabilities..




I can't speak for Fullstop, but to some, it's a pure spec-per-dollar value proposition. In that very limited view of things, a company either offers as much as the competition for the same price or it's a failure.

Generally, things like:

Compatibility with things not listed on the spec sheet 

Color
Focusing -- not points or modes, but overall ability to get the job done
Build quality
Reliability
Weather sealing
Tend to be overlooked with the window-shoppers and folks who want a Frankenstein camera with each company's best tech all in one body.

That said, there are places were Canon absolutely offers less for the same price or offers the same functionality for much more price. This is because a market leader with a great quality track record can play those games with people and they'll still pay.

- A


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## Dphotos (Sep 2, 2018)

If the camera has a single card slot I will not buy it. I have been burned before due to my computer could not read a card on a job I did. I now always shoot dual cards. Looks like I will be leaving Canon to Sony. I waited too long for this Camera.  I bought the Fuji XT2 system to hold me over. I am going to sell all my Canon lenses. The work I do now requires me to shoot silent and for a camera to shoot well in low light. My Canon 5D Mark lll’s are paper weights due to their large shutter counts. Looks like the Sony A9 is the Mirrorless king and best manufacturer. Canon will blow it big time if this new camera is less than the quality of the Sony. Their future hinges on their new Mirrorless products. They lost a ton of market share to Sony because of their executives did not listen to what the pros needed. Their egos blew it for them. To me they have the mentality of what Kodak did. They did not foresee the future in camera bodies.


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## usern4cr (Sep 2, 2018)

I currently use the Olympus EM1-2 and mainly shoot with only 2 Oly lenses: 12-100mm f4 (24-200 f8 EQuivalent) and 300mm f4 (600mm f8 EQ). I want to buy into a new FF system so that I can get a larger sensor and a good portrait lens with large bokeh (larger than I can get with the Oly 45mm f1.2 (90mm f2.4 EQ) ) at a reasonable size (not a huge & heavy brick). Access to other great lenses to expand my collection in FF instead of M43 is a plus.

Currently the best choice for me for this is the Sony A7R3 with the Sony FE 85mm f1.8 lens. It's light weight, lightning fast AF and I'm happy with the large bokeh. But I shoot half of my pictures in portrait mode at waist level with the LCD screen pulled out in portrait mode - the Sony A7 series can NOT do this. So I'm waiting for a FF camera that can.

The new Canon R lens can! This is really important to me (but I rarely see anyone else care about it). However, if it is true that the Canon R does not have eye AF and does not have IBIS then I can NOT consider buying it. I rely on eye AF as well as IBIS (coupled with lens OS) which on the E-M1 2 with both of these lenses is truly incredible! I won't lose that ability and will wait until a FF system comes out with it to make me happy.

So, I will wait to see what the 3rd player (Panasonic) has with their introduction of FF soon. If it has the fully articulating screen, eye AF and IBIS then I will see what else it has. Maybe it will be the right choice with no other deal breakers. FWIW I really want a big beautiful EVF, and would love to have a 105mm f1.8 lens at a moderate weight. Other FF lenses would be great, but nothing will match the 300mm f4 (600 f8 EQ) lens with the IBIS & OS at a weight & price I can affort - it's truly amazing). I would also like to have more easy to use dials (for aperture, shutter speed & exposure compensation) and a simpler & more intelligent menu system (both the Oly and Sony menu systems are very poorly written). And if you really want to solve the issue of how to focus, then put a sensor in the EVF to track the user eye so that they can look at the image and push a button to indicate what to focus on and track it while I recompose the image and then take the picture.

So I'll be a 2 brand shooter when something better comes out. But, sadly, it won't be the Canon R system with this camera. I really wish it could have been. OK, Panasonic, maybe you'll read this and consider it.


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## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

mariosk9gr said:


> Truly disappointed!! Canon will never learn! FHD 120fps, IBIS and dual SD slots should be standard at least! Im very angry right now!!



Sure, dual card with same specs would be nice but there is no Canon camera that has that today.
IBIS was always a leap for Canon and the video specs are beyond sufficient for everything but very slow motion use (overrated imo)


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## scyrene (Sep 2, 2018)

Rubz said:


> In no way can compete with a7iii and Z6 with those specs.



LOL. This rather sums up the way cameras are discussed on the internet. Neither this nor the Z6 have been released, yet we can declare a winner and loser based on specs (and in this case, partial specs).


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## Ozarker (Sep 2, 2018)

Adelino said:


> Yes impressive, no IBIS though? Is that Canon being stubborn about lens IS as the best?



Obviously. Stubbornness must be the reason. Just stubbornness. Canon knows IBIS is best, but Canon resents it and has gone into stubborn mode.


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## Respinder (Sep 2, 2018)

I really don't know what to think about this camera. On the one hand, I really dislike the body design - if it's supposed to be a mirrorless version of a 5D Mark IV, it just doesn't reflect the beauty of one. It looks more like a prosumer body to me - in fact the closest comparison is that it looks like the Canon EOS 650; the first EF-mount camera that Canon released in 1987 - so perhaps Canon was going in that direction, and body style will evolve over time as we get into the pro bodies. To me making a mirrorless equivelent of a DSLR pro body was one thing that Nikon really got right with the Z, but this camera, at least in the images I've seen, just doesn't look like it is at the same level/caliber.

I'm also not sure who this camera is aimed for. It's got one memory slot - an SD card slot at that - so just like with Nikon Z, I am sure that "pro shooters" - especially wedding photographers will come out saying that this camera will not suit their requirements. SD is far more failure prone vs XQD, so that may introduce issues as well. The camera appears to be more aimed at video shooters, yet we do not know if it will crop the video or have rolling shutter issues like the 5D Mark IV.

For photographers, the camera is missing the dial wheel - something that I've grown to love on Canon bodies. It's also slow - as slow as 5fps with servo AF. At the same time, the AF point coverage sounds incredible. And the lenses also look incredible - especially that 50mm f1.2. But, the fact that this camera uses an adapter, as opposed to EF mount (as discussed on these forums) is quite disappointing. I'm still hoping that Canon does decide to release a version of this camera that natively accepts EF, but it may be impossible.

I would say that going to a new mount after 31 years is quite a big move, and if its the case, I certainly hope that Canon provides necessary details about the adapter performance, and reasons as to why it was necessary to go "RF" in the first place and what are the advantages.

Ultimately, I think this camera's success really depends on price. To me, it has to be under $2K given what it has and what it doesn't. Over $2K, and suddenly I'm not sure who this camera is for. On the other hand, if Canon nails it with video, providing uncropped 4K video with C-log, they may have a winner.

Perhaps one last thing I would add: I feel that with this camera, Canon is still very much holding back in mirrorless, and holding on to DSLRs. This just doesn't feel like a genuine attempt to getting into the mirrorless field. But then again, I may be completely off-base with this - ESPECIALLY when I consider the Canon EOS 650 - that too was not a pro body, or a pro camera. So perhaps what we have here is a genuine rebirth of the 650 in mirrorless format, and we will see the pro bodies to come in the future?


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## glness (Sep 2, 2018)

I was so excited about this camera until I got to 5 FPS with AF/AE and the small buffer. You have got to be kidding! The Sony A7 III shoots 10 FPS with AF/AE. So does the A7R III. What is Canon thinking? You might as well put a warning label on the camera that says: "Caution: Do not use for action, sports or wildlife photography."


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## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> Can you elaborate how this cam is underspecced? If it does everything on this speclist well, i dont see an issue with photo. Then, it also beats Sony and Panasonic on their own field, the video capabilities..




the video cr*p we have to see first all fine print. DP-AF in 4k?= crop in 4k? Codec, etc. ? no FHD/120 fps. I am not interested in video, but even on that front it looks underspecced.

for stills:
- severly underspecced for shooting moving subjects. fps+Servo AF only 5 fps = no go.
- no IBIS - others have it all
- no Eye AF
- measly single UHS-I SD slot
- 2 out of 4 RF lenses are "extreme niche exotics" - not matched to underspecced body
etc.

Fail.


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## RGF (Sep 2, 2018)

Yawn

SD
5 FPS with AF

come on Canon you are equal disappointing as Nikon


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## mppix (Sep 2, 2018)

AaronT said:


> Too much noise? I have the 5DsR. I can take a properly exposed shot at 1600 ISO and print it at 24x36 without any noise showing. And it is SHARP. Did you shoot at 100 ISO and try to recover 5 stops of shadow? If so, your Sony might be better.


Isn't the real problem that all those spec-sheet warriors have stopped printing pictures. You can print really large i
It seems that the following is the

*Spec-sheet warrior picture work flow:*
1. Take a picture [without understanding the exposure triangle] in RAW+max resolution
2. Open in LR, click the auto-exposure button [that adjust the picture by 2+ stops], export to jpeg.
3. Zoom to 1:1 in a dark corner -> If there is any visible noise, then complain on [forum of your choice]
4. Upload the full-res picture to the internet -> If the resulting image is soft [due to poor down-sampling and/or lack of sharpening], then then complain on [forum of your choice] about the camera.
*Spec-sheet warrior video work flow:*
A. Take a video [in an arbitrary location + using AF] in 4K and at max framerate
B. Open in blender, click auto everything, export to native resolution
C. Play back on a HD monitor/laptop. If it looks "soft" complain about rolling shutter on [forum of your choice]
D. Upload to youtube, check if there is the 1080p option -> brag about your new 4K video.


----------



## bokehmon22 (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> the video cr*p we have to see first all fine print. DP-AF in 4k?= crop in 4k? Codec, etc. ? no FHD/120 fps. I am not interested in video, but even on that front it looks underspecced.
> 
> for stills:
> - severly underspecced for shooting moving subjects. fps+Servo AF only 5 fps = no go.
> ...



It's half hearted attempt from Canon to enter FF mirrorless. They are the last to join and didn't deliver some of those features mention. They could have deliver a feature rich camera such as just adding eyeAF from M50 and adding dual card slot, but it would encroach in sale of their DSLR.

I wonder when they release their professional FF mirrorless camera 6-12 months from now, it would add dual card slot but certain feature will still be omit (IBIS, eyeAF) to make future iteration of the camera more attractive to consumer. They will continue to gimped it someway and charge ~$3500 for it.

It's always the same story with Canon. Always holding back to protect their other camera lines.

I wish Sony deliver A7RIV/A9R with high resolution EVF and better ergonomic to deliver the knock out punch to Canon arrogance.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

I like how strategy is characterized as arrogance.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> It's half hearted attempt from Canon to enter FF mirrorless. They are the last to join and didn't deliver some of those features mention. They could have deliver a feature rich camera such as just adding eyeAF from M50 and adding dual card slot, but it would encroach in sale of their DSLR.
> 
> It's always the same story with Canon. Always holding back to protect their other camera lines.



True. The rumor is that Canon will never release another camera. No more DSLR. No more mirrorless. No more crop. No more full frame. What we have now is what we will have forevermore. Canon wants to protect everything from anything new.  No more new lenses either.

Canon is *******. Without eyeAF and a second card slot... this camera is also *******. EyeAF has been on everyone's shopping wish list, it seems, for the last 8 months or so?


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Sep 3, 2018)

People are incapable these days to take pictures without IBIS and Eye AF.


----------



## bks54 (Sep 3, 2018)

mppix said:


> Isn't the real problem that all those spec-sheet warriors have stopped printing pictures. You can print really large i
> It seems that the following is the
> 
> *Spec-sheet warrior picture work flow:*
> ...



Discusion Group Warrior:

A. Join CanonRumors
B. Get mad.
C. Post that Canon never listens to customers because they didn’t include x feature that they demand in Canon’s first mid-range offering.
D. Announce to the world that they have decided to leave Canon because a new camera that virtually no one has even seen omits some feature that will never make their photos better.
E. Nobody cares.


----------



## wanako (Sep 3, 2018)

mariosk9gr said:


> Truly disappointed!! Canon will never learn! FHD 120fps, IBIS and dual SD slots should be standard at least! Im very angry right now!!



If you're angry about a damn camera, you should seek professional help.


----------



## slclick (Sep 3, 2018)

If I handed you an Elan 7e with b/w panchromatic film and a 40mm stm lens would you take a photograph or start down a long list of gear head diatribes?....If you need and cannot live without x and y features, you really are more interested in forums than photography.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

wanako said:


> If you're angry about a damn camera, you should seek professional help.



Can't. He's too busy kicking the dog. Anger management classes should be ordered.


----------



## Hector1970 (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Love how the mirrorless value proposition is defined by such a narrow set of musts -- many of which weren't even considerations until Sony started offering them.
> 
> So I've got a few more reasons to go mirrorless, and Canon (and Nikon) will nail these:
> 
> ...


You seem to have a low level of requirement from your Canon gear except for a 50 1.2
Canon would produce a camera as good as Sony if they were able but they are not at this point.
This is concerning because Sony are not taking the foot off the pedal which Canon did while it has had market leadership.
Now they are on catchup on mirrorless.
For me to buy a Canon mirrorless there are things I want and Canon is not yet providing.
I hope they will provide them in the future.
I've no objection to people buying this Canon mirrorless. I"m sure it will sell quite well as there is a pent up demand.
But its given plenty of scope for it to be criticised including a single card, lack of IBIS, low AI servo FPS, new mount.
Some of these like the mount I could have lived without but not all of them.
Its not an attractive proposition for me. It's not a disaster of a camera its just not interesting me.
I'll wait another 6 months to see if Canon produce something more to my requirements.


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Don't get me wrong, Canon may shock me and offer a $2k rig here. It's a hybrid of a 6D2 and 5D4, but Canon historically doesn't dole out the FF sensor goodness on the cheap. They protect the price of cameras that have the good stuff.
> 
> If you could get a 5D4 sensor and image quality and a tilty-flippy for $2k instead of the $3099 5D4 asking price, I'd imagine Canon would lose a lot of 5D4 sales.
> 
> ...



I agree with your statement, particularly because you used the word "historically". The market _has_ changed though, don't you agree? They can charge premium prices, sure, as long as their camera sets the standard for premium. This one doesn't, from what we've seen. It would be a very competitive and attractive option to me, personally, at $2k or thereabouts. Indeed, I *will* buy one for that price, or even a few hundred more. 

If it is $3400, absolutely no possible way! I can get a PREMIUM FF camera for that price!


----------



## wanako (Sep 3, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> People are incapable these days to take pictures without IBIS and Eye AF.



LOL. This is precisely what I was thinking. Here I am, managing to get tack sharp images using a single point on the eye of a running toddler with the much "loved" 6DII. I must be a photography savant or something. /s


----------



## Canedo (Sep 3, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Could anybody explain what's the hype about the lack of [email protected]? Are people really using it so widely?


i do use it a lot, the right tradeoff between quality and slow motion, 60 fps nos enough slow down, twixtor adds lot of artifacts.


----------



## DaveGrice (Sep 3, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> B-roll for vlogs? I'm not really into video processing and I don't care much about video features. I realise it's for slowing 4x down? That is, many people so desperately want 4x slowdown instead of just 2x that they won't buy an otherwise suitable camera?



Yep, you got it.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I like how strategy is characterized as arrogance.



i see it exactly the other way round. Lots of arrogance as their only strategy.


----------



## bks54 (Sep 3, 2018)

wanako said:


> LOL. This is precisely what I was thinking. Here I am, managing to get tack sharp images using a single point on the eye of a running toddler with the much "loved" 6DII. I must be a photography savant or something. /s



We live in a world where the “Decisive Moment” is selected from a 20 frame per second sequence and is captured by sheer ass.


----------



## mppix (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> the video cr*p we have to see first all fine print. DP-AF in 4k?= crop in 4k? Codec, etc. ? no FHD/120 fps. I am not interested in video, but even on that front it looks underspecced.
> 
> for stills:
> - severly underspecced for shooting moving subjects. fps+Servo AF only 5 fps = no go.
> ...



- If the AFservo is good, 5fps is enough to shoot anything (the buffer is not bad either). I hope nobody expected a dedicated sport cam..
- there are initial reports that the nikon ibis is not that effective (on pre-production models). I'd rather have fratures that work, especially the AF. Eye AF will sooner or later come to Canon ML.
- no, there is a UHS-II mention in the spec sheet. If 480MBps is internal, it will even be UHS-III (but unlikely imo)
- 2 lenses are to demonstrate what is possible with the new mount. I know people that will get it for these 2 lenses alone (assuming they are half decent).

To summarize, i dont understand the complains. If this camera has Canon pedigree (=it does well what it promoses), i it will sell well.


----------



## Sharlin (Sep 3, 2018)

Pansottin said:


> How? With what kind of help that is different from my 5DIV? Thanks.



Focus peaking. That is, highlighting the focus plane (area of greatest contrast) in the viewfinder image. An OVF can't do that (and Canon DSLRs don't have focus peaking in the live view either).


----------



## Canedo (Sep 3, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> That is exactly my question. [email protected] may be used for adding effects (slow motion of ducks in a pond, etc.) but does not contribute to better quality video, so what is the hype?[/QUO
> 
> 
> bhf3737 said:
> ...


----------



## Canedo (Sep 3, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> Again same question here. For B-roll, you need multi-camera setup, and doing so, you need cameras with time code in and out, which is something that most of photography oriented cameras are not capable of. Furthermore, editing is time consuming because of precises insertion the scenes between takes. Therefore, it is definitely not for a one-person-show vloggers and not for everyday photographers.


I do not care about editing time, etc, I have enough


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Canon would produce a camera as good as Sony if they were able but they are not at this point.




Nonsense.

That implies Canon's in the 'best specs' business. They absolutely are not. They are in the profitability business, and that requires picking where your investments go, what features to offer (or not offer), etc. They've just realized that other things command a solid price than just spec-per-dollar.

- A

(I'm not saying nonsense to Canon not being able to cram all the tech into a tiny package -- that might actually be true. I'm calling nonsense that they'd deploy it if they could.)


----------



## Sharlin (Sep 3, 2018)

photogdan said:


> It's not fair and probably not the best way to distinguish one brand from another but it's especially true when it comes to technology.



And yet somehow Canon stubbornly keeps being #1 in spite of ignoring internet "wisdom" like that. Demonstrates how much internet opinions matter in the real world.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

slclick said:


> If I handed you an Elan 7e with b/w panchromatic film and a 40mm stm lens would you take a photograph or start down a long list of gear head diatribes?....If you need and cannot live without x and y features, you really are more interested in forums than photography.



I have an Elan 7E. 

It is not about "you need and cannot live without x and y features". It is about Canon unable and or unwilling to put features into their cameras that are or should be pretty much standard in 2018. Even when those features cost little to nothing and consists of just a few lines of already written software code - e.g. looking at Auto ISO implementation. Just take the "really right" software from 1DX II and presto, its done! But no, not even such tiny items. Or why no UHS-III SD slot or two of them .. in 2018? Cost difference would be marginal. 

It is this kind of behaviour that many people here are so sick and tired of. And it causes Canon a lot of lost goodwill in their customer base. Rightfully so!


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> Focus peaking. That is, highlighting the focus plane (area of greatest contrast) in the viewfinder image. An OVF can't do that (and Canon DSLRs don't have focus peaking in the live view either).




...and even if they did, holding a mirrorless camera up to your eye while you are doing that (presuming you're not on a tripod) is far far far preferable to 'iPad photography' of handheld Liveview.

- A


----------



## Colorado (Sep 3, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Its not an attractive proposition for me. It's not a disaster of a camera its just not interesting me.
> I'll wait another 6 months to see if Canon produce something more to my requirements.


The problem with all the teeth gnashing and statements of doom and gloom isn't a conclusion like yours. Not every product is going to appeal to every potential customer. Not every product is going to be so good or so bad as to pull people from other brands or push existing customers them away. Evaluating a new product against your needs and deciding on whether or not to purchase it is rational way of doing things.

What is crazy to me is how product announcements bring out people who say Company X is *******, ******* I SAY! Clearly that isn't the case here or really with any one product announcement. I don't really understand the purpose of such comments.

Personally my Canon body journey has been 10D, 1D Mark II, 1DX. I want something lighter I can take hiking but so far I haven't been tempted by any offerings, from Canon or otherwise. I use to take a point and shoot--I carried an S100 for a year or so. Now I just use my phone. Eventually I'll find something to take with me. A mirrorless R offering might be the ticket. I can hike with it with a lighter lens yet other times I can also use anything from my EF collection on it and the 1DX. That's something I can't do with the M50.


----------



## mppix (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> That implies Canon's in the 'best specs' business. They absolutely are not. They are in the profitability business, and that requires picking where your investments go, what features to offer (or not offer), etc. They've just realized that other things command a solid price than just spec-per-dollar.
> 
> - A



Agreed but Canon is also a conservative innovator. They bring features to the market when they are well-tested and work (at least in the FF and cinema lines). 
Sony is the opposite (in my experience at least), bring things to the market and let the user test. Then, bring out a new model. 
Both approaches get you eventually somwhere but only one has a track record of reliability.
Just my 2cents.


----------



## reef58 (Sep 3, 2018)

usern4cr said:


> I currently use the Olympus EM1-2 and mainly shoot with only 2 Oly lenses: 12-100mm f4 (24-200 f8 EQuivalent) and 300mm f4 (600mm f8 EQ). I want to buy into a new FF system so that I can get a larger sensor and a good portrait lens with large bokeh (larger than I can get with the Oly 45mm f1.2 (90mm f2.4 EQ) ) at a reasonable size (not a huge & heavy brick). Access to other great lenses to expand my collection in FF instead of M43 is a plus.
> 
> Currently the best choice for me for this is the Sony A7R3 with the Sony FE 85mm f1.8 lens. It's light weight, lightning fast AF and I'm happy with the large bokeh. But I shoot half of my pictures in portrait mode at waist level with the LCD screen pulled out in portrait mode - the Sony A7 series can NOT do this. So I'm waiting for a FF camera that can.
> 
> ...



What are you shooting? I don't see how you can replace you the EM1 300mm with a 7r3 85mm. You could get the Sony and one of the many 150-600 zooms but there will be no comparison size wise. I don't know the benefits of eye af especially at 600mm, but with your wide ranging needs I don't see a one body solution. I would keep the Olympus then choose the best full frame for the generic needs.


----------



## noms78 (Sep 3, 2018)

I noticed the video bitrate is identical to the 5d mark IV:

https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-5d-mark-iv/specifications/

Does that mean the 1.7x crop factor will be there for 4k video?


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> I have an Elan 7E.



I know what the E is, but what’s the N on mine?


----------



## reef58 (Sep 3, 2018)

mariosk9gr said:


> It can't go lower from a7iii/z6 I suppose in lineup comparison. These standards I mentioned are already standards for a lot of brands except our BRAND! Is it so bad that I was expecting much more that critical time from Canon?!?! And its really ugly! So many times I say it I can not even get comfort with it! OMG really UGLY!! With the specs also I care and for the style also! Don't you? Nevermind now I saw that piece of shit of technology at the near end of 2018, I love much more my 5d4 and c100ii!! did I mention? its fucking UGLY!!



I would probably relax and go take some photographs. There are likely 100's of camera bodies to choose from. I am not interested in this model, but to me it looks like it will fill a void. I think this may be a vlogger's camera. I am a bit stumped about the lenses however, so I suspect another body will be announced sooner rather than later. It will probably be a bit more advanced.


----------



## hmatthes (Sep 3, 2018)

I’m bored with forum trolls complaining about everything trivial and ignoring the fact that a camera is just a lens holder with an interface for our minds as photographers. 
Bitching about yet-to-be delivered cameras is the realm of non-photographic trolls whose actual camera is their phone doing selfies. 
Lens quality and manufacturer support are more important than single specs. My experience after 60+ years of shooting is that Canon and Leica support you long after the warranty is over. Sadly, two manufacturers loved by these trolls have failed us miserably.


----------



## osalom (Sep 3, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> What's the AF ev for the 5dmk4, -3 with a 2.8 lens?
> 
> This is -6 with a 1.2, so is that actually better or is it about the same in practice?


Basically the same.


----------



## mppix (Sep 3, 2018)

Canedo said:


> I do not care about editing time, etc, I have enough



I envy you


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Sorry Don. EOS M (1st gen) did NOT capture the market. It was seriously underspecced and had to be firesold for 299 including kit lens. What saved Canon's ass were the EF-M lenses. Decent IQ, small size, very affordable price. RF lenses are exactly the opposite on the last 2 items. And EOS R looks underspecced as well, now that we see more of the caveats and fine print. So I don't think it work as well for Canon FF mirrorfree this time.
> 
> Looking forward to see what Pana brings to the table. Then we got 5 FF mirrorfree suppliers and about 10 different new/current bodies. I like.


And just like the M, I expect that there will be several models before they get it right....


----------



## transpo1 (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> That implies Canon's in the 'best specs' business. They absolutely are not. They are in the profitability business, and that requires picking where your investments go, what features to offer (or not offer), etc. They've just realized that other things command a solid price than just spec-per-dollar.
> 
> ...



Absolutely. Just like those who think Canon can’t engineer uncropped 4K in a 5DIV or 1080 120p in a mirrorless camera without overheating. 

Canon can engineer what they want, but what they want centers around protecting profitability, product lines and dependability, mostly the former two motivations.


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 3, 2018)

slclick said:


> If I handed you an Elan 7e with b/w panchromatic film and a 40mm stm lens would you take a photograph or start down a long list of gear head diatribes?....If you need and cannot live without x and y features, you really are more interested in forums than photography.


The real trick would be to find a camera made in the last ten years that you can not use to take great pictures.....


----------



## mppix (Sep 3, 2018)

noms78 said:


> I noticed the video bitrate is identical to the 5d mark IV:
> 
> https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-5d-mark-iv/specifications/
> 
> Does that mean the 1.7x crop factor will be there for 4k video?


Ot may but its unlikely give the details in the spec sheet. Then, the 5div uses a different codec altogether


----------



## magarity (Sep 3, 2018)

My question is, what's going on between the lens and the body that needs 12 contacts vs the 8 of EF?

Also, I wonder if R will be to M as EF is to EF-S. One of the best things in the EOS system was that there was just the 2 types one had to manage between when deciding what to get.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 3, 2018)

osalom said:


> Basically the same.



Nope. https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...os-r-specifications.35724/page-17#post-739564
EV-3 on the prospective R corresponds to f3.5 which is 2/3 stops better than 5D4, if the specs sheet doesn't lie.


----------



## josephandrews222 (Sep 3, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> And just like the M, I expect that there will be several models before they get it right....



Don, do you think Canon can afford (not financial-wise, but rather, reputation-wise) to do what you're describing...on a FF device?


----------



## Lurker (Sep 3, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I know what the E is, but what’s the N on mine?


 Canon Elan 7N/7NE are the next generation of the Elan 7/7E


----------



## canonnews (Sep 3, 2018)

noms78 said:


> I noticed the video bitrate is identical to the 5d mark IV:
> 
> https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-5d-mark-iv/specifications/
> 
> Does that mean the 1.7x crop factor will be there for 4k video?


the crop factor has nothing to do with the bitrate. the R is using h.264 codec, so anything is possible. ALL-I is extremely bitrate intensive, but also very good. it could be considered very non-consumer. Only the G5 supports ALL-I 4K in ILC's right now.


----------



## jc7222 (Sep 3, 2018)

That is a lot of AF points. I hope they will allow for the screen to be used for AF selection in addition to a button of some sort. The screen or the strip to right of the viewfinder can be used to move AF points horizontally, diagonally and vertically in certain increments (ie 1/8 of the way in each direction). The button can be used for selection of each individual AF point.
If this is accurate, I wonder why Eye Detection is omitted since the cheaper M50 includes it?!
I've held off buying a 5D IV in anticipation of the FF mirrorless release. I hope Canon hits a HR with this.


----------



## JohanCruyff (Sep 3, 2018)

One question for my fellow CanonFriends: the specs sheet claims:


With Servo AF: Max. approx. *5.0 fps* (shooting speed priority)

and

Low-speed continuous shooting (Tracking priority) Max. approx. *3.0 fps*

I'm no expert in sport photography and tracking settings, so I would like to know how reliable is the tracking in "shooting speed priority" compared to the "tracking priority" in other Canon models.


----------



## Canedo (Sep 3, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> We can only assume certain aspects of the sensor at this point, unless one would assume this alleged spec list is “complete”. It may or may not have IBIS. It may or may not be back lit (i’m wondering with this utterly insane -6EV AF capability.... holy crap... again). Folks please stop making the knee jerk assumption that because something doesnt appear on this rumored/alleged spec list, that it wont be there. Again, it might be. Or, it might not be. Until Canon makes the full roster of specs official by their own hand, this all purely academic. Chill. Have fun. Fun is what this site all about. And the Craig and the crew do yomen’s work delivering it all. Stop and say “thank you” once in a while



This is official sr.


----------



## sdz (Sep 3, 2018)

Canedo said:


> This is official sr.



IBIS would be a feature Canon would want buyers to know about. The fact that the spec sheet fails to mention IBIS is a strong tell from which we can conclude that the R lacks IBIS.


----------



## Canedo (Sep 3, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Absolutely. Just like those who think Canon can’t engineer uncropped 4K in a 5DIV or 1080 120p in a mirrorless camera without overheating.
> 
> Canon can engineer what they want, but what they want centers around protecting profitability, product lines and dependability, mostly the former two motivations.


that's what I hate from canon, overprotecting their profitability.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 3, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> I’m bored with forum trolls complaining about everything trivial and ignoring the fact that a camera is just a lens holder with an interface for our minds as photographers.



I agree with you by and large but a camera isn't just a lens holder, it's a media holder too. Film or digital sensor, it's up to the camera, not the lens, to manage the image capturing.


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 3, 2018)

Sorry if I'm late to the party on this; does it have focus peaking? 

Do any of the "M" cameras have focus peaking? 

That was actually top three on my list; I use manual focus a lot.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 3, 2018)

sdz said:


> IBIS would be a feature Canon would want buyers to know about. The fact that the spec sheet fails to mention IBIS is a strong tell from which we can conclude that the R lacks IBIS.



It most likely does lack IBIS, however remember it's not an official Canon press-release, it's a leaked document of an unknown origin.


----------



## JohanCruyff (Sep 3, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> Sorry if I'm late to the party on this; does it have focus peaking?
> 
> Do any of the "M" cameras have focus peaking?
> 
> That was actually top three on my list; I use manual focus a lot.



It seems that the R doesn't have focus peaking (like the 5D Mark IV, as far as I know).

I can use focus peaking on my M6 (like M5, M50 etc.), on the contrary.


----------



## Frodo (Sep 3, 2018)

JohanCruyff said:


> One question for my fellow CanonFriends: the specs sheet claims:
> 
> 
> With Servo AF: Max. approx. *5.0 fps* (shooting speed priority)
> ...



I understand that contrast detect AF is more accurate, but slower than the faster phase detect AF. This could explain the fps differences.


----------



## streestandtheatres (Sep 3, 2018)

JohanCruyff said:


> One question for my fellow CanonFriends: the specs sheet claims:
> 
> 
> With Servo AF: Max. approx. *5.0 fps* (shooting speed priority)
> ...


It makes a difference on my 7dii. If I use speed priority I get a lot more oof shots; it's a big enough problem that, for me, I leave AI Servo 2nd in focus priority. In many situations I don't find that the camera is any slower, so 3fps for the mirrorless sounds s-l-o-w. I guess that's what the rumored 600 isn't the new mount.


----------



## Adelino (Sep 3, 2018)

Canedo said:


> This is official sr.



Yep, as official as it will get unless *Yoroku Adachi* himself says that it is wrong.


----------



## Frodo (Sep 3, 2018)

streestandtheatres said:


> It makes a difference on my 7dii. If I use speed priority I get a lot more oof shots; it's a big enough problem that, for me, I leave AI Servo 2nd in focus priority. In many situations I don't find that the camera is any slower, so 3fps for the mirrorless sounds s-l-o-w. I guess that's what the rumored 600 isn't the new mount.


Yes, but in the case of the 7DII, the camera is using the same technology to autofocus. The camera gives you two options for when the shutter actuates and as you note, speed priority gives you a higher proportion of OOF images.
I understand that the EOS R has two AF mechanisms (contrast detect and phase detect) and different ways to use those. I assume (but could be wrong) that this gives the different fps rates.


----------



## ISO5354 (Sep 3, 2018)

The EOS M6's actually AF points number is 49 while use cross key you can select ~704 points, so the EOS R spec is max 5655 (in cross key ) maybe the actually AF points is ~400.


----------



## Woody (Sep 3, 2018)

Looks like each component in the Canon RF system is about 100g lighter than the EF equivalent:

Canon EOS R (660g) vs 6D MkII (765g)
Canon R 24-105 f/4L (700g) vs EF 24-105 f/4L (795g)

Let's hope Canon also releases a R 24-70 f/4L that is about 450 to 500g (EF 24-70 f/4L weighs about 600g).


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 3, 2018)

josephandrews222 said:


> Don, do you think Canon can afford (not financial-wise, but rather, reputation-wise) to do what you're describing...on a FF device?


I think so....

The EOS R seems like a decent camera.... it will sell well, but there will be future iterations of it with improvements.... What I expect to see in a year is a high end mirrorless camera from Canon, and that’s where I expect to see the two UHS-2 card slots, the bigger buffers, faster frame rates, and better video.... in other words, a mirrorless 5D, with a price to match....

The EOS R is the Rebel of the lineup....


----------



## JBSF (Sep 3, 2018)

josephandrews222 said:


> Don, do you think Canon can afford (not financial-wise, but rather, reputation-wise) to do what you're describing...on a FF device?



Why not? Sony made plenty of mistakes and just kept putting out new bodies. This has has no effect on their reputation or their following.


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## JBSF (Sep 3, 2018)

Canedo said:


> that's what I hate from canon, overprotecting their profitability.



That’s why they’re still in business.


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## ken (Sep 3, 2018)

canonnews said:


> the crop factor has nothing to do with the bitrate. the R is using h.264 codec, so anything is possible. ALL-I is extremely bitrate intensive, but also very good. it could be considered very non-consumer. Only the G5 supports ALL-I 4K in ILC's right now.



"the crop factor has nothing to do with the bitrate." Uhm... The number of bits in a frame that have to be processed by h.264 or any other codec is going to have an impact on processing time, thus definitely impacting bandwidth.


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## RickWagoner (Sep 3, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Absolutely. Just like those who think Canon can’t engineer uncropped 4K in a 5DIV or 1080 120p in a mirrorless camera without overheating.
> 
> Canon can engineer what they want, but what they want centers around protecting profitability, product lines and dependability, mostly the former two motivations.



A few things about Canon you should understand. First off they won't ever release a feature that has not been put through the ringer a million times over and even after developing and more testing into the 99% perfect function of the feature they still would not release it to the public until that one feature works without pause or problem to anything else 100%. There are limits in todays tech that won't be around in tomorrows tech, there are limits one simply can not get around nomatter how much they try. When it comes to overheating, there may not be all that much humanly possible today in a small body they can do without the guarantee the feature won't harm other parts of the body. For example if they could engineer the sensor to not over heat but the amount of heat still causes a shorter life span on a single weather seal in the body then Canon will not do it! You would not believe the amount of people completely outside Canon Corp that are paid to test every single little thing in a body, then test that one thing to how it long term affects every other part or feature in the body, years and years go into their pro level stuff. This is why they are the top patent filer, it's because all the work that goes into every little detail to work 100%. 

Second thing you should know is most of Canon's bodies don't make much profit for them. The 7d2, 5d4, 5ds/r, and 1d bodies are not profitable machines, sometimes they may just break even also. The reason is these are not here to make them rich at all. If you seen the cost of producing, testing, aligning and more testing each mirror mechanism in a 1dx alone you would say it's silly to even sell the camera to the public at any cost. Canons bread and butter are printers, then entry level SLR stuff. These are the products that pay the bills and pay for all the advancements and R&D into the five bodies i mentioned above. Canon has 6 entry level or mid level bodies on the market just to make their higher lines that much better in terms of working all the time. So when a body of a higher model line comes out without a feature you think should be in it, it is not them protecting their profit at all, it is them protecting you from a possible headache of it not working they way it should when you are in the field and your paycheck depends on it. This is what separates Canon from the other makers, Though Nikon does a decent amount of testing but Sony barely does anything much in comparison to Canon. This is why Nikon has the release dates not being met or problems with the first/second or more production lines, this is why Sony just jams in the latest features without any care of it working perfect, jam the features in the body and sell baby sell. To Canon HQ people in Japan it is there name, their honor, their life meaning that the Camera works as intended and they will never chance that being harmed. Luckily for them the millions of people buying silly entry level slr's today will be the future buyers of the higher line bodies tomorrow because by them those people will know Canon always works the way it should.


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## TAF (Sep 3, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I think so....
> 
> The EOS R is the Rebel of the lineup....



That makes sense, so let us hope it it priced accordingly.

At $2K I would probably pass and wait for the more professional model...at $999 the credit card it ready and able.

Assuming it comfortably fits my hand, of course.


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## navastronia (Sep 3, 2018)

Something occurring to me now:

When will any of the major stills camera manufacturers (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic) make a full frame mirrorless with an ergonomic body? Who'll be the first? It feels for now like everyone is chasing a small form factor, which doesn't interest me at all.


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## fingerstein (Sep 3, 2018)

Canon will charge you, everytime for accessories, like grips. They are well known for having a lot grips for almost for every camera model. Sony and Panasonic have kept the same size over the generations, so grips or cages are compatible from one to another model. This translates in less money on garbage. Because accessories become obsolete first. My C100 mk Ii shoots 1080p @ 35Mbps. This is a 4 year old technology. But they will sabotage us with insane bitrates, but less quality, in DSLR/mirrorrless crippled cameras. But supporting only UHS I @ over 400Mbps... I think is not possible.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 3, 2018)

3kramd5if[QUOTE="CanonFanBoy said:


> True. The rumor is that Canon will never release another camera. No more DSLR. No more mirrorless. No more crop. No more full frame. What we have now is what we will have forevermore. Canon wants to protect everything from anything new.  No more new lenses either.
> 
> Canon is *******. Without eyeAF and a second card slot... this camera is also *******. EyeAF has been on everyone's shopping wish list, it seems, for the last 8 months or so?




I didn't say doom. I may overreact because I was waiting for a long time to upgrade to FF mirrorless camera and have the money to pay for it. I hate seeing Sony getting new feature for $2000 price point but Canon users keep getting basic features for similiar price point. They already have the eyeAF from M50 but choose to omit it. Why?? 

The second card slot is for my professional paid works. Unfortunately it means I have to wait longer for FF mirrorless with one from Canon. I understand no camera is perfect from any manufacture but it's frustrating waiting on Canon to provide feature parity. I do love Canon ergonomic, menu, touch screen, 28-70 F2 lens. Adding dual card slot and eyeAF would be perfect camera for me. Just more waiting for me. 


Sorry about the rant. Just tire of waiting


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## Joules (Sep 3, 2018)

fingerstein said:


> But supporting only UHS I @ over 400Mbps... I think is not possible.


Keep in mind that 400 Megabits is just 50 Megabytes and depending on the spec UHS-I should do between 50 and 104 Megabytes per second of I am not mistaken.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> I didn't say doom. I may overreact because I was waiting for a long time to upgrade to FF mirrorless camera and have the money to pay for it. I hate seeing Sony getting new feature for $2000 price point but Canon users keep getting basic features for similiar price point. They already have the eyeAF from M50 but choose to omit it. Why??
> 
> The second card slot is for my professional paid works. Unfortunately it means I have to wait longer for FF mirrorless with one from Canon. I understand no camera is perfect from any manufacture but it's frustrating waiting on Canon to provide feature parity. I do love Canon ergonomic, menu, touch screen, 28-70 F2 lens. Adding dual card slot and eyeAF would be perfect camera for me. Just more waiting for me.
> 
> ...



Your quote got a little wonky (now that the website keeps posts you started and then abandoned I think we will see more and more of that), so I’m not sure whom you meant to respond to.
The only thing I find interesting about this camera is the 28-70 f/2. It almost feels like bait.


----------



## anudi (Sep 3, 2018)

In shooting mode vs iso setting chart B mode says iso400 fixed! Does this attached spec mean that when in bulb mode it can shoot only in iso 400? Thats too bad for astrophotography and star trails longer than 30 sec and never seen in any interchangable lens camera i supose.


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## JimGemini (Sep 3, 2018)

I looked at the spec sheet for the M50 and noticed that it didn't list anything regarding eye-af even though the M50 has it. Maybe there is hope yet that the EOS R has this feature?

https://downloads.canon.com/nw/came...ations/canon-eos-m50-specifications-chart.pdf


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## koenkooi (Sep 3, 2018)

anudi said:


> In shooting mode vs iso setting chart B mode says iso400 fixed! Does this attached spec mean that when in bulb mode it can shoot only in iso 400? Thats too bad for astrophotography and star trails longer than 30 sec and never seen in any interchangable lens camera i supose.
> View attachment 180106



That's only for Auto-ISO, if you set ISO to 100 it will take pictures at 100 in bulb mode. If you set ISO to 'A', it will take pictures at 400.


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## Frodo (Sep 3, 2018)

anudi said:


> In shooting mode vs iso setting chart B mode says iso400 fixed! Does this attached spec mean that when in bulb mode it can shoot only in iso 400? Thats too bad for astrophotography and star trails longer than 30 sec and never seen in any interchangable lens camera i supose.
> View attachment 180106


You pasted in only part of the table. You left out the heading "Auto ISO". It makes sense that auto-ISO doesn't work on B mode as the camera does not know the length of the exposure. The full range of manual ISO settings is available for B mode.


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## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

josephandrews222 said:


> Don, do you think Canon can afford (not financial-wise, but rather, reputation-wise) to do what you're describing...on a FF device?




It didn't stop them with EOS M, right? The first M was a concept car (look how small we can make this!) that lacked a VF or integral grip and had AF that took until the following Tuesday to lock. Somehow their reputation survived. They iterated a few times, and as virtually everyone on this forum predicated/wished for/complained about, they gave EOS M both DPAF and a viewfinder and it became competitive in the marketplace. 

I'm not saying they'll take as long to get to a competitive place with EOS R, but they do not need to hit a home run with their first FF offering. The AF / EVF / handling needs to be solid, EF lenses need to adapt well and they can build from that.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

Frodo said:


> I understand that contrast detect AF is more accurate, but slower than the faster phase detect AF. This could explain the fps differences.




Canon pegs the 5D4 as 7 fps, but only 4.3 fps in Liveview with 'tracking AF' (presume they mean Servo). No idea if one shot (with burst? ) or outright turning the AF off speeds up the throughput.

- A


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## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

navastronia said:


> Something occurring to me now:
> 
> When will any of the major stills camera manufacturers (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic) make a full frame mirrorless with an ergonomic body? Who'll be the first? It feels for now like everyone is chasing a small form factor, which doesn't interest me at all.




A 5D-sized body -- perhaps not one to the letter but with that signature chunky grip -- is a certainty before too long. 
​1) Human hands aren't getting any smaller.​​2) FF lenses are surely not getting any smaller/lighter. You need curved sensors to really take a whack out of the optical design and get the weight down, and that's not happening in a major system soon.​​3) Some FF folks *only* shoot fast zooms and even faster primes.​​4) We presume the 5D grip is so desirable b/c it hasn't dramatically changed over the course of a number of bodies over the years.​
So I think it's natural for Canon (eventually) to offer a chunky body to better wield bigger lenses.

- A


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## anudi (Sep 3, 2018)

Frodo said:


> You pasted in only part of the table. You left out the heading "Auto ISO". It makes sense that auto-ISO doesn't work on B mode as the camera does not know the length of the exposure. The full range of manual ISO settings is available for B mode.


Oh ok. Then its fine. Table does not mention anything like this part is for range of auto iso settings thus it appeared to me as if its settings of iso choice available during manual shooting.


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## Talys (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Canon pegs the 5D4 as 7 fps, but only 4.3 fps in Liveview with 'tracking AF' (presume they mean Servo). No idea if one shot (with burst? ) or outright turning the AF off speeds up the throughput.
> 
> - A


Is that right? I always thought the reduced fps was when you use the smiley AF thing (face detect?) in live view. This is when you turn on live view, tap at someone (or let it autodetect), and it keeps focus locked on them even as they walk towards or away from you. As opposed to AI servo (versus one-shot) where AF is continuous but not "tracking". I think that for most bird in flight photographers, continuous dumb focus is the tool of choice, rather than tracking focus.


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## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

Talys said:


> Is that right? I always thought the reduced fps was when you use the smiley AF thing (face detect?) in live view. This is when you turn on live view, tap at someone (or let it autodetect), and it keeps focus locked on them even as they walk towards or away from you. As opposed to AI servo (versus one-shot) where AF is continuous but not "tracking". I think that for most bird in flight photographers, continuous dumb focus is the tool of choice, rather than tracking focus.




I was looking for corroboration or more detail on that 4.3 claim but I couldn't find anything at TDP. Seeing as that data coming from a Canon site, I'm inclined to take it at face value.

- A


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## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> The EOS R is the Rebel of the lineup....



no, too big, heavy and expensive. just wait until we see the price tag. launch price will be between 6D II and 5 D 4. 

fanbois will defend it, saying "5D IV-class sensor and better video" without mentioning the "functionality nerfing" all-around. ;-)

it really seems Canon had planned to launch 2 cameras, just like Nikon (Z6/Z7) but could not finish the higher-specced body in time. 

now they have a rather odd launch situation for an entirely new system including two hi-end RF lenses but only a very pedestrian low-end camera body. 

but - at least they went for "slim mount" and got RF mount parameters really right! 

better bodies will sure follow. it is up to us whether we nevertheless buy this 1st gen EOS R or wait some more years until they are fully competitive by generation 4... as with EOS M bodies. or don't wait any longer and spend our money elsewhere.


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## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> but they do not need to hit a home run with their first FF offering.



but if they were truly "innovative imaging industry leader Canon", they should have.

they got RF mount really right. why not do a *thunderclap launch* with two cameras and show everybody who's boss?!

1. a clear Z6 / A7 III killer as "low end" and
2. a clear A9 killer at high end - coupled with the 4 lenses, two "useful, decent and affordable" and two hi-end "drool tools" ;-)

would have made so much more sense. but no, it is "beancounter Canon" and Maximus Nerfus is their middle name. 

they may well have overdone the nerfing, leaving sony and Nikon with more breathing space than intended. and if EOS R price is out of whack too, we may see another fire sale. lol


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## sfeinsmith (Sep 3, 2018)

Now, we have specification released from the factory.

I do not see if this camera can be with the previous series of lenses, R lenses, FL lenses, FD lenses, and FDn lenses with 22mm adapter. Will this camera functional in manual mode with vintage lenses?
I am not surprised Canon continually disregard 44mm flange focal length lenses for Canon R camera. Then I am sure third-party will make one very soon.


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## PrashantG (Sep 3, 2018)

Exciting... with a few *


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## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

wanako said:


> LOL. This is precisely what I was thinking. Here I am, managing to get tack sharp images using a single point on the eye of a running toddler with the much "loved" 6DII. I must be a photography savant or something. /s



You too???


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## weixing (Sep 3, 2018)

anudi said:


> In shooting mode vs iso setting chart B mode says iso400 fixed! Does this attached spec mean that when in bulb mode it can shoot only in iso 400? Thats too bad for astrophotography and star trails longer than 30 sec and never seen in any interchangable lens camera i supose.
> View attachment 180106


Hi,
I think someone answer this question already... Canon Rumor copy and paste summary miss an important piece of information. If you look at the pdf file, this table is for Auto ISO mode. Since the camera don't know the exposure time (B mode), it'll not be able to determine the required ISO, so a fixed ISO 400 is used.

Have a nice day.


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## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

usern4cr said:


> I currently use the Olympus EM1-2 and mainly shoot with only 2 Oly lenses: 12-100mm f4 (24-200 f8 EQuivalent) and 300mm f4 (600mm f8 EQ). Oly 45mm f1.2 (90mm f2.4 EQ) )



f/8 equivalent? Your sensor size has zero effect on you len's f stop. An f/4 lens is an f/4 lens no matter the sensor size.


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## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

mariosk9gr said:


> Exactly my thoughts!!
> Slow at shooting in servo mode, one SD slot, really ugly! Im not buying that Canon again is holding back... at the end I will start to believe that Sony is paying Canon to hold back! Im pretty sure that Canon has all the technology to make an amazing camera and for the last 3-4 years its not doing it!! That's enough Im tired to wait for Canon to make up..!



Good Lord. I'm starting to think Sony employed trolls come here on their lunch breaks.


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## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> f/8 equivalent? Your sensor size has zero effect on you len's f stop. An f/4 lens is an f/4 lens no matter the sensor size.



yes, but only in terms of exposure. Other than that you may first want to read up on "equivalence" before posting.


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## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

sfeinsmith said:


> I do not see if this camera can be with the previous series of lenses, R lenses, FL lenses, FD lenses, and FDn lenses with 22mm adapter. Will this camera functional in manual mode with vintage lenses?



Most likely yes. In terms of mount geometry adapters are possible for many types of legacy lenses. 
Whether EOS R will take images then will depend on whether or not there will be "electronic requirements/safeguards" telling the camera that "a [proper] lens is attached" and on adapter makers ability to meet or spoof any such requirements if they exist. 

But in all likelihood, yes.


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## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> The real trick would be to find a camera made in the last ten years that you can not use to take great pictures.....


Then again, they can have the ultimate camera and still take pictures that suck.


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## Woody (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> but if they were truly "innovative imaging industry leader Canon", they should have.



Canon is not necessarily innovative and technology leading. Instead, they are known to be opportunistic, reliable and well-managed.

They will simply dominate the MILC market.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Good Lord. I'm starting to think Sony employed trolls come here on their lunch breaks.



OMG I believe *CanonFanBoys* have started to troll here in their lunch breaks.


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## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

Woody said:


> They will simply dominate the MILC market.



remains to be seen. 

I really like how the FF MILC situation is changing now.
* Canon and Nikon both went "slim mount" with well-chosen mount parameters as basis for a full range of future cameras and lenses. 
* Sony with less ideal mount, but very well-featured 4th gen cameras. More competition may finally force them to also offer attractively priced lenses instead of high-priced Zeiss and GMonsters only.
* Pana launch will also be interesting - seeing the end for quarter-sensor sized gear, they may also have seen the light and come up with good mount parameters and hopefully (!) not only video-centric cameras.

And while I am personally not interested in "Pseudo-MF" gear, I warmly welcome the soon to come Fuji GFX R if it is really as rumored around USD 3.900 to 4.500, because that will put a nice lid on excessive oligopolist FF pricing. 

Good times ahead for great, compact and affordable FF gear. 100% mirrorfree.


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## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

Woody said:


> Canon is not necessarily innovative and technology leading. Instead, they are known to be opportunistic, reliable and well-managed.
> 
> They will simply dominate the MILC market.



Yup, Canon will. However, let's not overlook Canon's innovations. I'll never understand why some people say Canon is not innovative. It isn't true. There is plenty of new tech coming out of Canon. Not the same tech as another company? Nope. Different tech. But that does not mean Canon isn't innovative.


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## Del Paso (Sep 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Good Lord. I'm starting to think Sony employed trolls come here on their lunch breaks.


Sometimes I just wonder whether we are on a Canon Haters Forum...


----------



## Timedog (Sep 3, 2018)

Complaining about people complaining isn't any better than the original people complaining. 

It's not unreasonable for people be upset when they have to pay more for fewer features. Especially for a ILC where for many people, switching to different systems means you're gonna take a bath. Canon has the largest budget and could, if they so choose, put out a camera that beats the competition. Of course, no one is immediately putting their gear up on Ebay today, they're going to wait for the announcement to see everything, but it's not unreasonable for them to be disappointed at the currently known information.


----------



## Woody (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> * Pana launch will also be interesting - seeing the end for quarter-sensor sized gear, they may also have seen the light and come up with good mount parameters and hopefully (!) not only video-centric cameras.



I am VERY excited to see what Panny is going to offer.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Yup, Canon will. However, let's not overlook Canon's innovations. I'll never understand why some people say Canon is not innovative. It isn't true. There is plenty of new tech coming out of Canon. Not the same tech as another company? Nope. Different tech. But that does not mean Canon isn't innovative.



From the specs, the R is a solid camera but not really extraordinary. Unless it's a new sensor with a huge DR and high ISO. If it shows a huge DR improvement against 5D4, I'll think of switching to it from my 5D4 despite the lack of the second card slot. But I doubt the sensor will be better than 5D4's one.

But the new RF lenses really shine. That's where the innovation is. Nikon's initial Z lens selection looks noticeably pale compared to Canon's RF.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 3, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> Focus peaking. That is, highlighting the focus plane (area of greatest contrast) in the viewfinder image. An OVF can't do that (and Canon DSLRs don't have focus peaking in the live view either).


I have focus peaking on 5D2. I'd say that for stills, it is overrated. Maybe because this particular implementation is bad. Or maybe because it's actually contrast peaking.


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## Wdy111 (Sep 3, 2018)

3 things very important for me seem not to be part of the pack. 

• eyeAf
• fokus peaking
• 2card slots 
So in my eyes thus one should be a lower price than 1500 bucks - otherwise even the 7r2 is the better one ...


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## symmar22 (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Most likely yes. In terms of mount geometry adapters are possible for many types of legacy lenses.
> Whether EOS R will take images then will depend on whether or not there will be "electronic requirements/safeguards" telling the camera that "a [proper] lens is attached" and on adapter makers ability to meet or spoof any such requirements if they exist.
> 
> But in all likelihood, yes.



I assume it should, I am currently using Contax/Zeiss and Leica R glass on my 5DR without problem, the thin mount should allow for even more choice in vintage glass. It would be a very bad move from Canon to limit the "natural capacity" of MILCs to adapt vintage lenses, and surely a good reason for lots of people (including myself) not to buy the camera. Strangely it's my EOS 1v that doesn't want to work with adapted lenses. 

OTOH, if the omitted a focus peaking function, that's a bit of a bummer.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 3, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Canon stated a few times that they are not fan of IBIS because of alignment and reliability problems.



Sure ... the fact that IBIS would allow customers to choose the Sigma Art lenses with higher resolution and much lower price tags, and still have IS, has of course nothing to do with it at all.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 3, 2018)

ecpu said:


> I might be finally jumping ship as well. But I've waited a long time at this point and will definitely give them the benefit of the doubt and wait for independent reviews.. and the full release so we can know the official 100% spec list.



I think its waiting until the "real" Canon mirrorless comes out because this sure aint it.

This is clearly not a serious competitor to either the Sony A7III or the A7RIII. 

Its a step in the right direction but a bitter disappointment for many of us.

In order to be persuaded to move to a new mount and invest in whole new set of lenses, I would want to see firm evidence of a proper competitor to Sony first.

In particular

a) A camera which is truly aesthetically attractive and balanced when using a 20-700 f2.8 or similar - something like the 5D would be ideal. The EOS R doesn't hold a candle to the 5D in my view on this count.

b) Eye focus and IBIS

c) A high resolution option. Personally I don't often want high resolution but there are times when it is utterly wonderful.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 3, 2018)

drama said:


> Let's break down these current dealbreakers, shall we?
> 
> * IBIS - well, we don't have a full spec sheet yet, let's wait for the announce proper. Yes, it would be nice. With good IS is it a deal breaker? sure, if you're trying to make a professional film. Otherwise, it'll be great for vlogging, B-Roll, youtube content etc - of which there is a gigantic market. And for the professional cinematographer, the cinema range.
> 
> ...



look at that ... my jonny is the only person keeping time ... all the other soldiers are marching out of step

sometimes it's worth heeding the views of others


----------



## Timedog (Sep 3, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> From the specs, the R is a solid camera but not really extraordinary. Unless it's a new sensor with a huge DR and high ISO. If it shows a huge DR improvement against 5D4, I'll think of switching to it from my 5D4 despite the lack of the second card slot. But I doubt the sensor will be better than 5D4's one.
> 
> But the new RF lenses really shine. That's where the innovation is. Nikon's initial Z lens selection looks noticeably pale compared to Canon's RF.


I just need it to be a minor upgrade in DR and noise from 5DIV with a reasonable price and I'll upgrade. I realized the importance of DR when I started taking protest photos (outside, mid day, bright sky, bright cement) with my 80d (13.1 stops DR at ISO 100) and I couldn't get any photos that where the sky wasn't 100% blown out, or the non bright stuff wasn't a black silhouette. Raising the shadows in software brought up too much noise.

If I can get something 14 stops DR, with a decently low amount of noise, I should be able to shoot anything, even in bright sunlight, and have my shots look how I want them to look. But this is why people like better specs. Better specs help you get better shots if you know what you're doing. I'm still getting plenty of likes on social media for my protest shots, so maybe people that aren't photographers don't care that much about DR issues, but I care and I know I could do better with better gear.


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## jjesp (Sep 3, 2018)

No focus peaking?? A modern mirrorless with no focus peaking? That can't be right.... No ibis and only one card slot I can live with. But not missing focus peaking. Well lets see when it is official....


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## Sharlin (Sep 3, 2018)

jjesp said:


> No focus peaking?? A modern mirrorless with no focus peaking? That can't be right.... No ibis and only one card slot I can live with. But not missing focus peaking. Well lets see when it is official....



Let's stop with the Chinese whispers games. Rumors that are already unreliable get miscommunicated and turned into even more unreliable new rumors, which then turn into "facts", and then everybody gets offended.


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## symmar22 (Sep 3, 2018)

jjesp said:


> No focus peaking?? A modern mirrorless with no focus peaking? That can't be right.... No ibis and only one card slot I can live with. But not missing focus peaking. Well lets see when it is official....



Agreed, that would be bad. I guess we'll know more with the first review in a few days. 

The camera looks decent, though IMHO the retail price will be the final judge. Without IBIS, with a moderate resolution viewfinder (compared to Nikon), average FPS, one card slot (at least UHS-II if I got it right), it looks more like a pimped mirrorless 6D2. If they price it around 2000$ it's OK (at 1900$ they would have a psychological edge), at 2500-3000$, then the Nikon or Sony cousins might looks more appealing. I've been waiting as well for the Canon FF MILC and must admit I am only mildly enthusiastic. For me now the Nikon proposal looks a bit more attractive (glass compatibility aside).

On a side note the new denomination is a bit puzzling, "R" without numbering doesn't tell much what category they are aiming at. I assume the following models will add letters then (RS - high res/studio, RX speed/sport, and maybe REL Rebel/el cheapo ). What I wonder is what category will they aim at with the next camera ? More features / more pro or will they go for a an even cheaper sub-6D version ?


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## Romz26 (Sep 3, 2018)

RickWagoner said:


> A few things about Canon you should understand. First off they won't ever release a feature that has not been put through the ringer a million times over and even after developing and more testing into the 99% perfect function of the feature they still would not release it to the public until that one feature works without pause or problem to anything else 100%. There are limits in todays tech that won't be around in tomorrows tech, there are limits one simply can not get around nomatter how much they try. When it comes to overheating, there may not be all that much humanly possible today in a small body they can do without the guarantee the feature won't harm other parts of the body. For example if they could engineer the sensor to not over heat but the amount of heat still causes a shorter life span on a single weather seal in the body then Canon will not do it! You would not believe the amount of people completely outside Canon Corp that are paid to test every single little thing in a body, then test that one thing to how it long term affects every other part or feature in the body, years and years go into their pro level stuff. This is why they are the top patent filer, it's because all the work that goes into every little detail to work 100%.
> 
> Second thing you should know is most of Canon's bodies don't make much profit for them. The 7d2, 5d4, 5ds/r, and 1d bodies are not profitable machines, sometimes they may just break even also. The reason is these are not here to make them rich at all. If you seen the cost of producing, testing, aligning and more testing each mirror mechanism in a 1dx alone you would say it's silly to even sell the camera to the public at any cost. Canons bread and butter are printers, then entry level SLR stuff. These are the products that pay the bills and pay for all the advancements and R&D into the five bodies i mentioned above. Canon has 6 entry level or mid level bodies on the market just to make their higher lines that much better in terms of working all the time. So when a body of a higher model line comes out without a feature you think should be in it, it is not them protecting their profit at all, it is them protecting you from a possible headache of it not working they way it should when you are in the field and your paycheck depends on it. This is what separates Canon from the other makers, Though Nikon does a decent amount of testing but Sony barely does anything much in comparison to Canon. This is why Nikon has the release dates not being met or problems with the first/second or more production lines, this is why Sony just jams in the latest features without any care of it working perfect, jam the features in the body and sell baby sell. To Canon HQ people in Japan it is there name, their honor, their life meaning that the Camera works as intended and they will never chance that being harmed. Luckily for them the millions of people buying silly entry level slr's today will be the future buyers of the higher line bodies tomorrow because by them those people will know Canon always works the way it should.



So true. I like how people dont know this fact about Canon. My og 7d worked right out of the box on the date they released it out in the public. Heck i havent even updated the fw, and for still(what i use it for) it never gave me a problem.

People talk about pro stuff all the time. Can you get your sony gear serviced when it fails? I drive 20min to Irvine to get my camera cleaned by Canon every 2 years. If something breaks I trust they will have my back with the parts to fix it. This is big when spending my hard earned cash on something. Hearing Sony cant do this tells me they dont care about their products. Why should they, when we live in a society where almost everything is disposable?

With that said ill wait for the more "pro" version to come out and see if it meets the needs of shooting moving objects. I am sure this EOS R will, but I would like a higher burst rate with full autofocus. IBUS doesn't really matter, and video doesn't really matter to me. I am not vlogging or shooting much video, but would like to go full frame...eventually.


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## Romz26 (Sep 3, 2018)

symmar22 said:


> Agreed, that would be bad. I guess we'll know more with the first review in a few days.
> 
> The camera looks decent, though IMHO the retail price will be the final judge. Without IBIS, with a moderate resolution viewfinder (compared to Nikon), average FPS, one card slot (at least UHS-II if I got it right), it looks more like a pimped mirrorless 6D2. If they price it around 2000$ it's OK (at 1900$ they would have a psychological edge), at 2500-3000$, then the Nikon or Sony cousins might looks more appealing. I've been waiting as well for the Canon FF MILC and must admit I am only mildly enthusiastic. For me now the Nikon proposal looks a bit more attractive (glass compatibility aside).
> 
> On a side note the new denomination is a bit puzzling, "R" without numbering doesn't tell much what category they are aiming at. I assume the following models will add letters then (RS - high res/studio, RX speed/sport, and maybe REL Rebel/el cheapo ). What I wonder is what category will they aim at with the next camera ? More features / more pro or will they go for a an even cheaper sub-6D version ?



For me I hope for your RX version. Its more along the lines that i shoot. This version is probably targeted at 6D type users.


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## tron (Sep 3, 2018)

OK you had your mirrorless camera. Now where is my 5DsR MkII?


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## memoriaphoto (Sep 3, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> I think its waiting until the "real" Canon mirrorless comes out
> 
> a) A camera which is truly aesthetically attractive and balanced when using a *20-700 f2.8* or similar



Damn! I think you're in for a long wait....


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## BillB (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I can't speak for Fullstop, but to some, it's a pure spec-per-dollar value proposition. In that very limited view of things, a company either offers as much as the competition for the same price or it's a failure.
> 
> Generally, things like:
> 
> ...



I would put ease of handling on the list of intangibles as well. The 5DIV touchscreen interface is a joy to use. As far as specs are concerned what often gets lost is how important the differences in the numbers really are, in terms of actual picture taking.


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## Ladislav (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I'm just not buying any fatalistic takes on EF. EF is not going anywhere! Canon is *just launching* this new mount and will take a decade to get it where it needs to be to stand alone from EF. Over that time, Canon will continue to refresh EF glass.
> 
> - A



Until we see a proof or commitment from Canon it is just another assumption. I see it bit differently and I'm still quite angry about RF lenses rumored for the new camera. If they released them for EF mount, they would still work on EOS R with adaptor but we all could enjoy them on our existing cameras. This way anyone who wants to use it also needs new body.

My assumption:

EF will continue for sure. It is unlikely for now that Canon will start doing big whites in RF mount but unless we are going to see new 50 or maybe even similar 28-70 (or 24-70 2.8 IS !!!) for EF in next year I don't see any proof of your assumption.

Another big question is how this affect cadence of releases. Up until now all L lenses were built in single factory which has limited throughput. If they will need to concentrate more on RF lenses to add more native glass for new mount, there will be less EF releases.

And what about future of DSLR? What we see in EOS R is 6D Mk III without mirror. I doubt there will be any 6D Mk III. If my assumption is right, FF DSLR line will shrink by one model. Will it follow with 5D? I assume not immediately but if Canon moves towards mirrorless we will see reduction of DSLR offering to few models for people who really want them - all others will go for mirrorless. Again that would point to less EF lens releases.


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## Gazwas (Sep 3, 2018)

The new mout is reason enough to buy this camera. If Canon can produce strong retrofocus EF lenses to thier current high standard, I can only imagine how amazing the new lenses will be. A true symmetrical wide angle lens on a mirrorless body meaning almose zero distortion sounds heavenly. 

I’m totally sold on this camera and my only concern is no mention of the EVF resolution. As long as this is up there with the best (Sony A7riii) this will be an amazing camera that will only get better.......... about time Canon!


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## BillB (Sep 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Then again, they can have the ultimate camera and still take pictures that suck.


Or they can post on rumors sites instead of taking pictures


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## Wdy111 (Sep 3, 2018)

BillB said:


> Or they can post on rumors sites instead of taking pictures


 Like you do?


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## symmar22 (Sep 3, 2018)

I guess at some point we'll see DSLRs overtaken by MILCs, it seems only natural, the same way rangefinder cameras where dominating the market until Nikon proved otherwise with the F. With younger generations more used to LCDs than to optical instruments, DSLRs already look like dinosaurs to the youngsters, even if they still have some advantages......for now. But It will take time and Canon won't let go that market until they really start losing money on it. It might be however that the announced V3 big whites are the last EF generation; I would not be surprised if the next ones in 5-10 years are R mount.

I think the announcement of a modern 50mm f1.2 R and the 28-70 f2 R says a lot about Canon's commitment to the new mount, they are truly pro oriented and don't have any EF equivalent. If they would consider FF MILCs as a second choice they would have released a decent 50mm f1.4 R and updated the 50mm f1.2 EF. The R is not the mirorless camera to fit that market yet, but IMO, those 2 lenses alone tell a lot about the direction Canon is going.


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## spandau (Sep 3, 2018)

Focus peaking and eye tracking I believe is included in the Digic 8 processor which is probably in this camera and in the M-50 which has those features.


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## BeenThere (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> but if they were truly "innovative imaging industry leader Canon", they should have.
> 
> they got RF mount really right. why not do a *thunderclap launch* with two cameras and show everybody who's boss?!
> 
> ...


I suspect you are right about the second body not being ready yet, but rather than cede the market completely to Nikon for the next 6 months, decided to release what was ready now. That is a good marketing decision. It hooks the early adopters now, and gives hope to those who want something more.


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## BeenThere (Sep 3, 2018)

spandau said:


> Focus peaking and eye tracking I believe is included in the Digic 8 processor which is probably in this camera and in the M-50 which has those features.


Implementing the same feature in a camera with more pixels to process still takes more processor power. Canon has to prioritize the processor cycles to what they consider to be the most important functions, or add another processor (and higher cost).


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## Durf (Sep 3, 2018)

spandau said:


> Focus peaking and eye tracking I believe is included in the Digic 8 processor which is probably in this camera and in the M-50 which has those features.



I believe you are probably right, we'll see in a couple days....

in the meanwhile many will continue to complain as usual over Canon not releasing the perfect camera over all others for 2000.00
(friggin ridiculous!).


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## BillB (Sep 3, 2018)

Wdy111 said:


> Like you do?


Yep


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## $winter (Sep 3, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> I suspect you are right about the second body not being ready yet, but rather than cede the market completely to Nikon for the next 6 months, decided to release what was ready now. That is a good marketing decision. It hooks the early adopters now, and gives hope to those who want something more.


i guess also january-february an announcement of the successor of the 1dx or photokina 2019 (8. - 11. Mai 2019. ) an then 5dm4 replacment ...

what will be very intresting which mount these susccors will get .. EF or R


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## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

Timedog said:


> Complaining about people complaining isn't any better than the original people complaining.
> 
> It's not unreasonable for people be upset when they have to pay more for fewer features. Especially for a ILC where for many people, switching to different systems means you're gonna take a bath. Canon has the largest budget and could, if they so choose, put out a camera that beats the competition. Of course, no one is immediately putting their gear up on Ebay today, they're going to wait for the announcement to see everything, but it's not unreasonable for them to be disappointed at the currently known information.



1. They don't have to pay more for fewer features. There are plenty of choices out there. They are free to choose them. Guarantee you this: Most of the haters that are serial haters, year after year, on this forum... they ain't buyin' nuthin' anyway. Not from nobody.
2. How do you know what Canon's budget is? How do you know what Canon can choose to do? Canon chooses what Canon believes will make Canon more money. That is why Canon is in business. If Canon could do it and still make the max profit, don't you think Canon would? Canon isn't a charity.
3. Nope, it isn't unreasonable for people to be disappointed when they don't get what they want. What is unreasonable is expecting a company that MUST make a profit to cater to individual wants vs the market as a whole.
4. It is unreasonable for people to be *upset that Canon does not provide the exact camera they say they want that the other guy sells, yet they somehow won't go buy. Year after year after year.*


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## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

Wdy111 said:


> Like you do?



No, like you do.


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## justawriter (Sep 3, 2018)

I would like to move to full frame, but I don't see any reason here not to wait until I have to replace my 7DII in two or three years.


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## JBSF (Sep 3, 2018)

fingerstein said:


> Canon will charge you, everytime for accessories, like grips. They are well known for having a lot grips for almost for every camera model. Sony and Panasonic have kept the same size over the generations, so grips or cages are compatible from one to another model. This translates in less money on garbage. Because accessories become obsolete first. My C100 mk Ii shoots 1080p @ 35Mbps. This is a 4 year old technology. But they will sabotage us with insane bitrates, but less quality, in DSLR/mirrorrless crippled cameras. But supporting only UHS I @ over 400Mbps... I think is not possible.



Huh? Panasonic and Sony each have four or more different grips for models still on the market.


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## Gazwas (Sep 3, 2018)

justawriter said:


> I would like to move to full frame, but I don't see any reason here not to wait until I have to replace my 7DII in two or three years.


You’ve obviously never used a mirrorless camera then. 

I shoot 1D and 5D line cameras along side a Sony A7rii and much prefer the mirrorless features over the traditional DSLR - they feel ancient in comparison. I held off upgrading my A7rii to the A7riii in the hope Canon had something like this and its a great start and hope to see a high resolution version next.


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## vjlex (Sep 3, 2018)

Ladislav said:


> Until we see a proof or commitment from Canon it is just another assumption. I see it bit differently and I'm still quite angry about RF lenses rumored for the new camera. If they released them for EF mount, they would still work on EOS R with adaptor but we all could enjoy them on our existing cameras. This way anyone who wants to use it also needs new body.
> 
> My assumption:
> 
> ...



This is kind of my thinking on it too, but I wouldn't say I'm angry or have any strong feelings on it one way or the other. It makes me a little uneasy and curious as to what the treatment of the EF line will be going forward. Nothing is going to change immediately, but it does bring an element of uncertainty. It seems like Canon is indecisive and hedging their bets. Depending on how well-adopted their first offerings of the RF lenses are, they may fully commit to it going forward, which may mean gradually less commitment to EF. On the other hand, if buyers are hesitant to adopt the new lenses, they may pull back and retreat to EF, relegating RF to a failed experiment and a scant catalog.

It seems like a Mexican stand-off of sorts: they'll be watching the market to see whether to go full RF or stick to EF; I'll be watching the rollout of RF to decide whether to stick to my EF glass and bodies or if I need to start transitioning over to RF eventually. I still think the R seems like a great camera, but really, it's still Canon's move. I'm not sold on RF yet.


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## JBSF (Sep 3, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> Sure ... the fact that IBIS would allow customers to choose the Sigma Art lenses with higher resolution and much lower price tags, and still have IS, has of course nothing to do with it at all.



No Canon body has IBIS. Canon is not in the business of making money for Sigma. Canon has never prevented Sigma from making lenses that mount and function on Canon bodies. Sigma lives with it.


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## RunAnon (Sep 3, 2018)

Things I want to know before pronouncing this camera DOA. ***FOR ME***

1. Is this the rumored "lower end" model. It better be. In fact it HAS to be. There's one slot. QED.
2a. If not, what happened to the all the promises from canon this year about bolstering specs to stay in or even ahead of, lol, the mirrorless spec race?
2b. If the answer to #1 is yes, then skip 2b. If the answer is No, where is 4k60 which arrived to market share thieves 4 years ago?
2c. Subsampling. Is this 8 bit 4:2:0? I bet it is. See 2a.
3. Not that I care if the answer to 1 is "No," but out of sheer morbid curiosity, what will this camera output via HDMI? Shudder.


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## padam (Sep 3, 2018)

RunAnon said:


> 1. Is this the rumored "lower end" model. It better be. In fact it HAS to be. There's one slot. QED.
> 2a. If not, what happened to the all the promises from canon this year about bolstering specs to stay in or even ahead of, lol, the mirrorless spec race?
> 2b. If the answer to #1 is yes, then skip 2b. If the answer is No, where is 4k60 which arrived to market share thieves 4 years ago?
> 2c. Sub-sampling. Is this 8 bit 4:2:0? I bet it is. See 2a.
> 3. Not that I care if the answer to 1 is "No," but out of sheer morbid curiosity, what will this camera output via HDMI? Shudder.



Do you know of any other full-frame mirrorless camera with Canon colours, Dual-Pixel AF, swivel LCD and a whole heap of glass behind it, all fully supported?

I don't, and the C200 is being loved as well, despite being 8-bit 4:2:0 internally.

So I think they should be quite alright for the time being, no matter what kind of bashing they get on forums (even after they release the price, which will be more than people would like)


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## Kit. (Sep 3, 2018)

RunAnon said:


> Things I want to know before pronouncing this camera DOA.


If you don't want to know its price before making a judgement, why not pronounce immediately?


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## ewg963 (Sep 3, 2018)

Adelino said:


> Yes impressive, no IBIS though? Is that Canon being stubborn about lens IS as the best?





Fwiler said:


> No IBIS is sad, but if those lens selections are true, I won't care.


Yes I was looking to see if IBIS was implentmented maybe it will be on the second camera that Canon is planning to release.


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## RunAnon (Sep 3, 2018)

of course, you didn't really mean FF but probably super 35, like your c200. In that case, then yes, minus the swivel screen the 1dxii has canon color science, dpaf and a heap of glass. (swivel is bottom priority list for me). Let's be clear. I'm talking about video. Not stills.

the c200 is being loved by no one in a production house without an intermediate codec that's 10 bit 4:2:2. Even 8 bit 4:2:2 would have been the minimum, like is in the 1dxii. Which though bloated AF is great when transcoded.

Again, if you read my post, if this is a lower end model IF in fact there will be two models, I have no issue. If it's the higher end model, it's poorly conceived ***on paper***.


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## RunAnon (Sep 3, 2018)

Kit. said:


> If you don't want to know its price before making a judgement, why not pronounce immediately?



Price is in the middle but closer to the bottom of MY priority list for slot in my bag I'm looking to fill. If the specs are right, that is. For me it's about finding the right tool for the particular kinds of jobs I'm looking to use mirrorless for, where size/specs are the most important factors. I can of course understand that these are not everyone's criteria


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## JBSF (Sep 3, 2018)

RunAnon said:


> Things I want to know before pronouncing this camera DOA.
> 
> 1. Is this the rumored "lower end" model. It better be. In fact it HAS to be. There's one slot. QED.
> 2a. If not, what happened to the all the promises from canon this year about bolstering specs to stay in or even ahead of, lol, the mirrorless spec race?
> ...



Since it apparently would be only your fourth post on this forum (after registering today), we all wait with baited breath for your pronouncement. Canon is following through on a commitment to FF ML; they didn’t promise to put out the world’s be-all and end-all by the end of the year.


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## unfocused (Sep 3, 2018)

RunAnon said:


> Things I want to know before pronouncing this camera DOA...



I'm perplexed as to why you think anyone would care if you pronounce it DOA. That's the role of the marketplace, not individuals.


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## RunAnon (Sep 3, 2018)

unfocused said:


> I'm perplexed as to why you think anyone would care if you pronounce it DOA. That's the role of the marketplace, not individuals.


FFS I'm pronouncing it dead FOR ME.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> fanbois will defend it, saying "5D IV-class sensor and better video" without mentioning the "functionality nerfing" all-around.



This time I agree; they nerfed the mirror and OVF right out of the thing!



fullstop said:


> it really seems Canon had planned to launch 2 cameras, just like Nikon (Z6/Z7) but could not finish the higher-specced body in time.



Based on what, and in time for what?


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## CanonGrunt (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Most likely yes. In terms of mount geometry adapters are possible for many types of legacy lenses.
> Whether EOS R will take images then will depend on whether or not there will be "electronic requirements/safeguards" telling the camera that "a [proper] lens is attached" and on adapter makers ability to meet or spoof any such requirements if they exist.
> 
> But in all likelihood, yes.



I use FD lenses on my M5, you just have to turn on the setting "release shutter without lens attached" and it by passes the fail safes. I also use them on my C500, so pretty...


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## padam (Sep 3, 2018)

RunAnon said:


> of course, you didn't really mean FF but probably super 35, like your c200. In that case, then yes, minus the swivel screen the 1dxii has canon color science, dpaf and a heap of glass. (swivel is bottom priority list for me).


No C-Log, external ND, no EVF, fixed screen with crippled touch interface, very heavy and how much is that 1DX II again?
The C200 wasn't targeted for broadcast where 10-bit is required.

The whole point is: Canon knows very well how to position each of their photo/video cameras and they did exactly the same with this one.


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## [email protected] (Sep 3, 2018)

Spent a good part of weekend observing commentary and analysis of this forum. It is fantastic. No better forum for bouncing observations, and on the whole it has been kept very fact focused.

Different people have different needs, of course. For some, lack of focus peaking (if even true) is a deal breaker. For others, it is a card slot. I respect that. That said, I draw a line when judging this release between factors that are legitimately disappointing and factors that just would have been nice. That line is this: whether or not the feature is actually a step back from current DSLR feature set versus something we’d like that Canon has never previously provided.

FACTORS THAT LEGITIMATELY STINK
- this is a 3 FPS camera for people using AF in tracking mode (single reason I will wait). Canon hasn’t released a camera that slow since 2008 (rebel xs), so this is rather remarkable. For people coming from an early M series camera, it might not be as huge a difference, but for most DSLR switchers, it’ll be tough to swallow. The big legit complaint at the 5d4 launch was the nerfed FPS at 7. To go to 3 from that would require still subjects for the most part. Due to unclear terminology in spec list, sure if this applies to all servo mode or just face tracking; but in either case it isn’t the camera for a would-be 5d4 switcher imo. My “pew, pew, pew” SL1 is 33 percent faster, and maddenly slow.

FACTORS THAT WOULDA BEEN NICE
- 2nd card slot. Even for paid work, I don’t use the SD card in 5d4 because it slows FPS. Never had card failure that wasn’t because I sent it through washer and dryer by mistake. I swap cards out as I go along, reducing liability of loss (which never happens anyway). Much more concerned camera will get stolen (2x cards no help there). Shocked by shrill reaction to Nikon release’s lack of second card, and think it’s significant over-reaction. Reaction to Canon’s lack of 2nd card not quite as shrill, perhaps because opinions more considered now.

- IBIS... I just can’t get worked up about a lack of a feature that a company has never before demonstrated the capability of delivering. Would be very nice, of course, but certainly not a surprise.

- not EF mount... anyone who has used M mount before in the Canon world, knows that the adapter to EF is a non-issue. It just works. It’s not a deal. It is not at all like adapters that you see for Sony. 

FACTORS THAT ARE LEGIT INNOVATIONS OR OTHER POSITIVES
- Despite me having a real dealbreaker preventing me from buying the new camera, I am still sorely tempted simply because of the glass that is being released. The 50 mm lens in the F/2 zoom are really compelling.

- Form factor looks pretty optimal, but will need to handle to know. This will be very personal and will vary by person. My sense: current pro models are unnecessarily large and heavy. Mirrorless are impractically small. This might be the Goldilocks form factor.

- Screen as trackpad for AF is a huge improvement over any current pro model. Anyone who has used the M5 with this feature knows. Joystick half as useful.

- Filters in adapters is brilliant.

- This appears to be the 5D4 sensor, which is great for the (speculated) price. Some have mentioned that this sensor would require a much higher price because of the price of the five series camera, but this is not so. That camera was released years ago, so offering that sensor at a much lower price is completely reasonable. People also point to the new six series camera, with a decidedly not very improved sensor, as showing that the price point of a five series sensor would be much higher. I think we can consider the recent six series release as an anomalously unimproved release and not use it to benchmark the market’s price to feature expectations. Of course, Canon is going to crow about this being a “completely redesigned sensor.” They have never not done this. 3/4 of people appear to believe that it will actually be a completely new sensor. There may indeed be some sort of adaptation that was required to do with the older sensor, but by and large when we see very similar sensors between cameras, they are pretty much the same sensor. I marvel at our gullibility sometimes. 

UPSHOT:
- I am not going to buy this camera. When we first started discussing it I was already taking pictures of one of my 5D4 cameras so that I could list it on eBay. I am no longer going to sell that camera. I will have Canon CPS send me one of the R models when it becomes available for borrowing (already officially requested). But it will also likely buy one of the Sony A7R3s used, just to compare the two and later resell the Sony. This will be for experimentation. Because Canon created such a low frames per second body, I will look at the Sony system, but had Canon *fixed* the FPS issue, which really did require fixing from the already sluggish 5d4, I wouldn’t have bothered even looking. I do not plan to switch, but with a new mount in the offing, I need to do due diligence.

I look forward to the pro model coming out. Hopefully the super slow FPS is not a long-term limitation. When this is actually officially announced, we may see Canon making a development announcement about a different camera, for which we do not have the specs. So our speculation at this stage might be a little premature in terms of assuming we know a lot about their positioning in the market. 

The thing that might be most exciting to me about the upcoming announcements is the release of the new 600 mm. Lots of good stuff, across vendors, coming out. It is exciting.


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## sebakunstpaul (Sep 3, 2018)

mppix said:


> Agreed but Canon is also a conservative innovator. They bring features to the market when they are well-tested and work (at least in the FF and cinema lines).
> Sony is the opposite (in my experience at least), bring things to the market and let the user test. Then, bring out a new model.
> Both approaches get you eventually somwhere but only one has a track record of reliability.
> Just my 2cents.



Sony have a track record of reliability in the vast majority of tech market segments they got involved.
The vast majority of the products they aimed to be quality and/or high end tech, usually excelled. I owned and used in various circumstances Sony products since 80s.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> Sure ... the fact that IBIS would allow customers to choose the Sigma Art lenses with higher resolution and much lower price tags, and still have IS, has of course nothing to do with it at all.



I believe they made that statement before sigma debuted the Art line, so yes, I agree with your conclusion


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## CanonGrunt (Sep 3, 2018)

padam said:


> No C-Log, external ND, no EVF, fixed screen with crippled touch interface, very heavy and how much is that 1DX II again?
> The C200 wasn't targeted for broadcast where 10-bit is required.
> 
> The whole point is: Canon knows very well how to position each of their photo/video cameras and they did exactly the same with this one.




I think you mean internal ND Filters..
The c200 does have internal RAW light, yet just one C Fast card slot. Which is fine, and why I think most people won't care that the EOS R has just one card slot. I usually only use one slot on my 5 DsR, and other two card slot cameras.


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## RunAnon (Sep 3, 2018)

Now we're having constructive conversation. I'm IN.

I agree with ALL of this:
-No C-Log: This is literally the dumbest decision ever. It's on the 5Div. No one is more upset about me than this. Profiles just don't hack it.
-internal** ND I think you mean: Ya, I'd love it. It's not critical for me, but boy do I miss it like my c300ii. I shoot at 60 frames a lot, so at 1/120 with a polarizer, I can get away with broad daylight in a pinch. It's by no means ideal.
-crippled touch: I just need focus occasionally. I'm not a fan of touch menus. That's just me.
-weight: definitely a big boy. but it flies well. it's also lighter than the c200 which I've considered many many times. I'd rather the c300ii and the c200 have babies. preferably one with 4k60. If you give me the same flavors as in the c300ii at 4k60, I'll pay the exorbitant prices, provided it's very near the ballpark of the c300ii launch price. 
-no EVF, crippled touch features, very heavy and how much is that 1DX II again?

I quibble with your point about broadcast being the target, yes you're right, clearly broadcast was the not the target with the particular codec/bitdepth/subsampling selections and lack of 2 cfast slots. But the broadcast market on cinema Eos convos is straw man argument for me: many more people than just broadcast want 10 bit color. Many.

Yes, Canon is great at positioning, I totally agree. A bit of a short stick for me on this one. But again, if this is the lead in mirrorless like the rumors seem to suggest, then they're on the right track.


----------



## stevelee (Sep 3, 2018)

Without stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops, not for me.


----------



## josephandrews222 (Sep 3, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Spent a good part of weekend observing commentary and analysis of this forum. It is fantastic. No better forum for bouncing observations, and on the whole it has been kept very fact focused.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



This!


----------



## dolina (Sep 3, 2018)

Sony makes more sense. More mature system


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 3, 2018)

So, now that the ranting & trolling is mostly over (until the official release, that is ), I'm gonna do a Jordan Belfort, sell this camera to me, a long-time Canon DSLR owner with quite a few EF lenses. What's your sales pitch gonna be like, what's the value-added, why would I get this MILC over, say, a 6DII or a 7DII? What can this MILC do that I can't do with my existing DSLR? Create a demand for this camera for current Canon owners.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 3, 2018)

dolina said:


> Sony makes more sense. More mature system


LULZ.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 3, 2018)

RunAnon said:


> Price is in the middle but closer to the bottom of MY priority list for slot in my bag I'm looking to fill.


I don't want this camera for myself, but if the price is low enough, I may buy one for a Christmas gift.


----------



## RunAnon (Sep 3, 2018)

JBSF said:


> Since it apparently would be only your fourth post on this forum (after registering today), we all wait with baited breath for your pronouncement. Canon is following through on a commitment to FF ML; they didn’t promise to put out the world’s be-all and end-all by the end of the year.



the phrases is wait with "bated" breath. As in, abated. Not fish-breath. But if you meant what you said, sorry, maybe it's a medical thing. I didn't mean to bring attention to it.


----------



## CanonGrunt (Sep 3, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> Sony have a track record of reliability in the vast majority of tech market segments they got involved.
> The vast majority of the products they aimed to be quality and/or high end tech, usually excelled. I owned and used in various circumstances Sony products since 80s.




True, however, Sony has a horrible track record of keeping any of its departments at the top of its class once they start churning out cash for them. Playstation is the only exception. Sony Vaio computers used to be the market leader. They led in music and music players for a while. They even snagged a decent bit of the appliance market for a minute there. They have an internal business structure where they take the profits from one department to reinvent another department, and then lose their market share from the first one. I just don't trust Sony as a company, even if they have a great product out at the moment. I love a lot of their products, but I won't invest in a camera eco system that might fade away at an executives whim. 

Canon, however has one job: imaging, varying forms of it, but imaging through and through. It's always sink or swim for Canon; Sony can do other things.


----------



## padam (Sep 3, 2018)

CanonGrunt said:


> I think you mean internal ND Filters..
> The c200 does have internal RAW light, yet just one C Fast card slot. Which is fine, and why I think most people won't care that the EOS R has just one card slot. I usually only use one slot on my 5 DsR, and other two card slot cameras.


no internal ND or external ND, all means the same exact thing.


----------



## JBSF (Sep 3, 2018)

RunAnon said:


> the phrases is wait with "bated" breath. As in, abated. Not fish-breath. But if you meant what you said, sorry, maybe it's a medical thing. I didn't mean to bring attention to it.



“phrases” is plural; your verb is not in agreement with your subject.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 3, 2018)

Canedo said:


> that's what I hate from canon, overprotecting their profitability.



LOL how DARE a company concentrate on the one thing that keeps them afloat! Sheer arrogance!


----------



## Kit. (Sep 3, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> So, now that the ranting & trolling is mostly over (until the official release, that is ), I'm gonna do a Jordan Belfort, sell this camera to me, a long-time Canon DSLR owner with quite a few EF lenses. What's your sales pitch gonna be like, what's the value-added, why would I get this MILC over, say, a 6DII or a 7DII? What can this MILC do that I can't do with my existing DSLR? Create a demand for this camera for current Canon owners.


It has 3 camera control rings. In manual mode, you could be able to control aperture, shutter speed and ISO at the same time, seeing the effect in the EVF. And in all other modes, you could be able to do the same (just one of these values is controlled not directly, but through exposure compensation).

If you replace your 6DII with it, you will get a camera with a slightly better functionality _and_ with a more capable UI - once you get used to it.


----------



## reef58 (Sep 3, 2018)

Gazwas said:


> You’ve obviously never used a mirrorless camera then.
> 
> I shoot 1D and 5D line cameras along side a Sony A7rii and much prefer the mirrorless features over the traditional DSLR - they feel ancient in comparison. I held off upgrading my A7rii to the A7riii in the hope Canon had something like this and its a great start and hope to see a high resolution version next.



I have used them and really don't like them. Then again I don't need 10,000 features in a camera. I am not in the market for a full frame mirrorless at this time, but if I were I really would prefer a non IBIS. It is something I don't use, and it is a delicate item. I have an Olympus E M10 which is a cool little camera, but I use it so rarely I literally have to watch youtube videos to remember how all of the features are accessed. That is not the camera's fault obviously but rather my occasional use, but my 5d4 I can pick up and go no matter. I have a 500 f4 and the IS is off 90% of the time.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 3, 2018)

Timedog said:


> It's not unreasonable for people be upset when they have to pay more for fewer features. Especially for a ILC where for many people, switching to different systems means you're gonna take a bath. Canon has the largest budget and could, if they so choose, put out a camera that beats the competition. Of course, no one is immediately putting their gear up on Ebay today, they're going to wait for the announcement to see everything, but it's not unreasonable for them to be disappointed at the currently known information.



But they don't have to pay. They don't have to buy anything. And fwiw I've never made a significant loss on selling gear - especially lenses (though it probably varies by region). If they're in good condition you can break even sometimes. But in a any case our current cameras still work. Just because a new model is announced, it needn't have any impact at all.

I simply don't understand the mentality. I bought a camera that suited my budget and general needs. I bought lenses for my preferred subjects. I'm not sat around thinking I need X feature and if it's not provided by every company then the world will end. If I want to try something new then I'll see what products are available to enable it, and if I can afford them, I'll get one. Isn't that how it works for everyone? PS there's a big difference between being disappointed and throwing a tantrum, which some forum posters have been doing.


----------



## TAF (Sep 3, 2018)

navastronia said:


> Something occurring to me now:
> 
> When will any of the major stills camera manufacturers (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic) make a full frame mirrorless with an ergonomic body? Who'll be the first? It feels for now like everyone is chasing a small form factor, which doesn't interest me at all.



With 3D scanning and printing technology being what it is, I could see Canon offering a service where you stopped by your local camera store, they scanned your hands, and then 3D printed a 'body glove' that fit you perfectly. They then installed all the component modules, and you got YOUR camera (the EOS-TAF in my case). Custom fit to you.

For professionals, that would be worth a fair amount of money.

Once it became affordable (and it would), I think most enthusiasts would do it.


----------



## Bob Howland (Sep 3, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> The EOS R seems like a decent camera.... it will sell well, but there will be future iterations of it with improvements.... What I expect to see in a year is a high end mirrorless camera from Canon, and that’s where I expect to see the two UHS-2 card slots, the bigger buffers, faster frame rates, and better video.... in other words, a mirrorless 5D, with a price to match....
> 
> The EOS R is the Rebel of the lineup....


+1.


----------



## Breezy123 (Sep 3, 2018)

1080/120 is a problem -- clients don't want 720 timelines... and whether you think it is overused or not, not having the option to shoot true slowmo at the bread and butter standard of the industry is huge issue.

"Getting a gopro" is not a pro solution, and I suppose this isnt a pro camera.


----------



## Gazwas (Sep 3, 2018)

RunAnon said:


> FFS I'm pronouncing it dead FOR ME.


Why is every mirrorless camera expected to be tiny with small but super fast lenses (unobtainable )and has to be a professional video camera???


----------



## nchoh (Sep 3, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> My worry is what will happen with the M mount. It will obviously not be compatible with RF. My guess is that Canon will keep it as a cheapo system and will release 1 plastic lens per year with M mount. Quite disappointing.



M mount will remain as that system is for small and light. EF-S will likely go.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> So, now that the ranting & trolling is mostly over (until the official release, that is ), I'm gonna do a Jordan Belfort, sell this camera to me, a long-time Canon DSLR owner with quite a few EF lenses. What's your sales pitch gonna be like, what's the value-added, why would I get this MILC over, say, a 6DII or a 7DII? What can this MILC do that I can't do with my existing DSLR? Create a demand for this camera for current Canon owners.



that's the problem. It is a hard sell to owners of current Canon FF DSLRs. EOS R gets you basically a 5D IV sensor [reviews pending], fully articulated Display, but less fps performance than even a 6D II, especially with Servo-AF. Video features are not fully clear yet. And it is not much smaller and lighter than a 6D II. 

Price not known yet. So value proposition unclear. Relative to 6D II and 5D IV. 

Only target groups i really see is if you 1. shoot mainly stationary/slow moving subjects and 2. drool over big fat fast glass and/or 3. with EF adapter as a backup FF body. 

If you need fast Servo/Tracking AF, forget it - don't buy, wait for higher up model coming some day or look elsewhere.


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## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

Gazwas said:


> Why is every mirrorless camera expected to be tiny with small but super fast lenses (unobtainable )and has to be a professional video camera???



because for me [and presumably many other enthusiasts] it allows for a streamlined setup with only 1 camera for both types of use case: A) small body with small, slower glass (not fast!) when a small combo is desirable and sufficient for the task AND B) option to use large, fast or long glass any time it is really needed. But only then.

I will buy a small FF mirrorless with only a few compact, moderately fast lenses. All big/heavy/expensive glass rental, only when needed. Most economical way to go.


----------



## memoriaphoto (Sep 3, 2018)

So is this going public tomorrow or what? What time, does anyone know? There’s nothing press-related on Canons website regarding an announcement


----------



## sdz (Sep 3, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> Sony have a track record of reliability in the vast majority of tech market segments they got involved.
> The vast majority of the products they aimed to be quality and/or high end tech, usually excelled. I owned and used in various circumstances Sony products since 80s.



For decades broadcast video was spelled 'Sony gear' -- cameras, VTRs, switchers, etc. For the prices charged for this stuff it had to work 24/7/365.


----------



## Adelino (Sep 3, 2018)

RunAnon said:


> FFS I'm pronouncing it dead FOR ME.


This camera is DOA to 99.9% of my extended friends and family. None of them bother posting here to tell us that. I'm interested in this release even if it's not the camera for me. I look forward to learning more about any new technology involved with it, features, reviews and road maps and speculation where this first model will lead.


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## Canedo (Sep 3, 2018)

JBSF said:


> That’s why they’re still in business.



Watch SONY and Panasonic...


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> no, too big, heavy and expensive. just wait until we see the price tag. launch price will be between 6D II and 5 D 4.
> 
> fanbois will defend it, saying "5D IV-class sensor and better video" without mentioning the "functionality nerfing" all-around. ;-)
> 
> ...




We could read these tea leaves a host of ways:

1) Lenses really draw people to the system so regardless of the body spec at launch, the bright shiny thing would be the L lenses.

2) Canon may have a full EF mirrorless model at a pre-production stage (timing-wise behind the EOS R we've seen) -- ready if Nikon did the same with F mount -- but in absence of that announcement from Nikon there's no urgent need to commercialize it.

3) Canon honestly thinks the FF mirrorless market won't be segmented like in the past (Nikon: good/better/best, Canon: Good / all-arounder / best) and wants a 'tweener' play-to-all-comers starting model to frame up what the next move is.

But I agree that this camera's DNA is a blend of 6D2 and 5D4 and the form of it will be too small / underspec'd for a lot of people.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 2. a clear A9 killer at high end




100% Canon is not technically or strategically ready to deploy such a camera. They will allow the 'fail early and often' action to happen on the low end like they with EOS M and then work their way up.

I''ll say it. Canon is conservative as hell and would never put out something half-cooked, but _they also may not be capable of making an A9 sort of rig at this moment_. They may need some time to figure out a blackout free EVF, how to move 400 MP / second without overheating in a smaller body, etc. Or possibly they could make that camera, but with their quality standards it would be overdesigned, heavy, and cost $5000 to make.

Any way you shake it, they need to use the masses in the enthusiast world as a test populace to commercialize, refine and improve. The 5D/6D space is clearly the place for mirrorless FF to start.

- A


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## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

Del Paso said:


> Sometimes I just wonder whether we are on a Canon Haters Forum...




Just on this thread. Specs bring out the tantrums and some 'low post accounts'  that magically show up just to throw some darts at us.

Go back to the thread where the body photos were leaked. It's nearly unbridled joy from the long-time folks that were waiting for this -- it was like kids opening up their presents at the Holidays.

- A


----------



## Jaysheldon (Sep 3, 2018)

I haven't read through all of the (at this point in time 350) comments, but one thing is missing from the eight pages I read so far: What colour are the R's focus points? Do they stay red when focus locks (like a 6D) or black (like a 6D2)? It's a consideration for me.

Otherwise, my thoughts (as someone who doesn't earn a living with his camera): First, I've invested in two L lenses (70-200 IS f4 and 400 f5.6), and don't want a system with an adaptor. Second, weight is a consideration in a camera body for me. Third, more focus points is a consideration. Fourth, I fear shortly Canon will signal the end of the EF line. And the way they will do it is by releasing fewer EF/EF-S bodies. I think camera companies expect most ILC buyers replace their cameras every five years. So five years from now you will be able to buy an EF-capable body that takes EF lenses without an adaptor -- but you will have fewer choices. Five years isn't that long away.


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## sebakunstpaul (Sep 3, 2018)

The lack of IBIS is a 99% dealbraker for me. One of the main reasons i want a full frame mirrorless camera is the flexibility to use a huge range of lenses along the native ones, mostly talking about vintage lenses, some of which have unique esthetic character. This is one of the areas where IBIS would help. But wait, doesn't even Canon have modern glass without IS? Yes they have ... One of the winners for Sony was the appeal mirrorless cameras had for many creators offering them flexibility, customization and with the latest generation of cameras offering a mature set of features... It seemed just a natural evolution that Canon would make use of Sony's experience as a starting point, and come to the market adding to this. When few years professionals and enthusiasts come with a list of requests, your competition is implementing all that, resulting a successful line of products, the obvious thing is to learn and implement those things yourself using the benefit of jumping the learning curve at the expense of the competition. It appears that Canon want to re-invent the wheel on our expense, and i consider this a bad deal. Soon Canon will remain the only big name that doesn't implement IBIS. I find the entire marketing approach around the IS, IBIS and customer fidelity based on lens collection a very dirty approach, that makes me reconsider and eventually limit the use of canon gear.


----------



## Sharlin (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> 100% Canon is not technically or strategically ready to deploy such a camera. They will allow the 'fail early and often' action to happen on the low end like they with EOS M and then work their way up.



Agreed. I don't think it's a coincidence that this camera is designated simply "EOS R", like the first M was "EOS M". It's clear that this one is way more mature than the original M, but it does appear to be something they can iterate a bit without worrying about what exactly the whole lineup is going to look like in the future.

As a semi-serious note: For a while now Canon has differentiated their high-end/pro bodies with (among others) two features: number of card slots and... number of C modes (two and three respectively). But the new R has one card slow but _three_ C modes! What does this mean?! Is nothing sacred anymore?


----------



## JordanRushing (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Go back to the thread where the body photos were leaked. It's nearly unbridled joy...


Well yeah, because it was just photos. For some of us, specs matter, and we’re not apologists. We want the best tech and canon isn’t bringing that, whether it’s a lack of experience in the new tech or an unwilling to make a high spec camera and risk cannibalizing their high end dslr market. Which honestly is fine, if that’s the marketing strategy that they want to use, more power to them.
For people like me it’s now a decision of whether we wait until they _hopefully_ release an actual pro version or we move to a different brand with third party adapters for our canon glass (or just sell them and get some first party mounted glass).

Canon isn’t going to make everyone happy. Some people want the best specs & quickly and some people want the conservative approach. I think for people like me it’s whether they will even mention the pro version tba on the 5th.


----------



## Tangent (Sep 3, 2018)

Of everything being announced this week the only item I'll likely get in the next 6 months is the Canon EF-M 32mm f/1.4 STM. I'll just keep enjoying my EF-M as far as mirrorless goes, and wait on FF mirrorless for a while. 

Anyway, I don't see a wired remote plug in the pdf spec. Call me old school, but I don't want to be doing dawn patrol for sunrise shots fumbling around with a softphone as my only remote option.

(There is an Extension System Terminal mentioned, but that apparently is for the wireless file transfer module accessory.)


----------



## bokehmon22 (Sep 3, 2018)

When do you guys think the second camera and hopefully more professional camera will be announce?

Early next year before Photokina in May?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

shunsai said:


> It seems like a Mexican stand-off of sorts: they'll be watching the market to see whether to go full RF or stick to EF; I'll be watching the rollout of RF to decide whether to stick to my EF glass and bodies or if I need to start transitioning over to RF eventually. I still think the R seems like a great camera, but really, it's still Canon's move. I'm not sold on RF yet.




Interesting theory, but I disagree with this take:

1) RF and EF must coexist for a very long time. Think 10 years. See Keith's wife's great chart here and look at EF's launch in 1987. There's zero chance in hell we'll see 20+ lenses in the first two years (!!!) like that again. RF won't have a fraction of EF's glass for a long time, and it will take time to even clone the core of EF. 

2) There is no Mexican standoff on mounts. Canon wants its current SLR users to go buy a mirrorless rig. This isn't about migrating us from a sedan to better sedan -- they want to sell us _another _car, not replace the one we have.

3) RF may be better than EF or maybe it has some painful takeaways that some folks don't like. We do not know what aces RF has up it's sleeve until we see how those native RF lenses perform. They might have some slick features (like that knurled mystery ring near the front of each lens), but they also might be all FBW and cost a mint. We will see.

- A


----------



## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> But I agree that this camera's DNA is a blend of 6D2 and 5D4 and will be too small / underspec'd for a lot of people.



no, it is *too big* and underspecced.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Spent a good part of weekend observing commentary and analysis of this forum. It is fantastic. No better forum for bouncing observations, and on the whole it has been kept very fact focused.
> 
> [truncated]




Super thoughtful post. Appreciate your take on this.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

dolina said:


> Sony makes more sense. More mature system




Let me know how a more mature system makes your hands feel at the end of a day of shooting with big f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes. 

- A


----------



## Sharlin (Sep 3, 2018)

By the way, interesting how the squarish OLED light-on-dark top display suddenly became trendy. I mean, Leica has it, Phase One has it, Fuji has it, Nikon has it, and now Canon has it.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Go back to the thread where the body photos were leaked. It's nearly unbridled joy from the long-time folks that were waiting for this -- it was like kids opening up their presents at the Holidays.



that was before all the underspecced fuctions, footnotes, caveats and omitted features slowly came into the open.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

Jaysheldon said:


> I haven't read through all of the (at this point in time 350) comments, but one thing is missing from the eight pages I read so far: What colour are the R's focus points? Do they stay red when focus locks (like a 6D) or black (like a 6D2)? It's a consideration for me.




That's a great question! Don't know the answer myself.

My thought would be that when it's an EVF, you aren't married to the transmissive overlay shenanigans of more recent OVFs in SLRs. In theory, the AF focus points should be something Canon is 'drawing' on the screen along with the image, so not only should that be made as ideally contrasty as possible, I don't see why you couldn't customize that color in the settings.

-- Excerpts from my new book: _An SLR-only Shooter Totally Explains How Mirrorless Cameras He Has Never Used Work _​​(Someone who has used a bunch of these mirrorless things please straighten me out on this. I'm guessing this is an easy answer.)

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

JordanRushing said:


> Canon isn’t going to make everyone happy. Some people want the best specs & quickly and some people want the conservative approach. I think for people like me it’s whether they will even mention the pro version tba on the 5th.





Canon doesn't announce available camera X and _soon to happen_ camera Y that often. And there's a good reason for that: folks will hold off their dollars on the first model until the 2nd model's specifics become clear. That could mean 3-6 months of tepid launch sales for a pricey new product.

And if you're familiar with Canon's FF cadence in which they roll out the 1DX# --> 5D# --> 6D# cameras, there's healthy downtime between them so that all anyone hears about is the one that just got launched. Rollout is an art form, and we can argue how it should be done best, but Canon excels at keeping our attention on the one they are rolling out.

Better bodies are surely in the future for this EOS R platform, but other than some aspirational statements on 9/5, like...

There is interest in a larger camera and we're looking into that
We want to make the experience as seamless as possible for EF lenses
...I would be stunned if Canon said any of the following:

A Full EF camera is coming
Another FF body is coming soon but we're not ready to share that
As that would absolutely take the wind out of the sails of what they are trying to sell at that moment.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> Agreed. I don't think it's a coincidence that this camera is designated simply "EOS R", like the first M was "EOS M". It's clear that this one is way more mature than the original M, but it does appear to be something they can iterate a bit without worrying about what exactly the whole lineup is going to look like in the future.
> 
> As a semi-serious note: For a while now Canon has differentiated their high-end/pro bodies with (among others) two features: number of card slots and... number of C modes (two and three respectively). But the new R has one card slow but _three_ C modes! What does this mean?! Is nothing sacred anymore?




Agree the spec choices are weird. This thing feels like a plausible 6D/5D hybrid, engineered to scoop up as much pent-up demand as possible with one body. I don't think Canon have as firm a read on FF mirrorless segmentation as their considerable FF SLR experience might imply. Perhaps this first body is just a smash and grab of pent up demand from enthusiasts as they figure out their real strategy in this market.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 3, 2018)

Tangent said:


> Anyway, another thing I don't see in the RF camera body is a wired remote plug. It wasn't in the pdf spec. Call me old school, but I don't want to be doing dawn patrol for sunrise shots fumbling around with a softphone as my only remote option.




Top left port of the body on its left hand side. Cable release. You're good:





- A


----------



## Apepper (Sep 3, 2018)

Timedog said:


> No IBIS. UHS-1??? No 1080p/120fps. No mention of BSI or improved sensor tech. Ugh. Disappointing.
> Lets see at least Canon is coming back, hopefully they dont cripple it like they did with the m50.
> Will still instabuy if it's actually ~2 grand like the initial rumor.
> 
> The AF points number sounds insane, but we'll have to see what that number actually means in reality.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 3, 2018)

mppix said:


> Its not impossible to make a *good* focus by wire. After all, cars are now steered by wire and airplanes flown by wire... Just my thoughts.



Could be the reason for the new mount. A more responsive focus by wire might need a fast communication link.


----------



## Canedo (Sep 3, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> Sony have a track record of reliability in the vast majority of tech market segments they got involved.
> The vast majority of the products they aimed to be quality and/or high end tech, usually excelled. I owned and used in various circumstances Sony products since 80s.



That was in the past, and Mobil phones are of the lowest reliability in the market.


----------



## Tangent (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Top left port of the body on its left hand side. Cable release. You're good:
> 
> ​
> - A



Right. Thanks!


----------



## Kit. (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> They might have some slick features (like that knurled mystery ring near the front of each lens),


It is called "control ring", and you will definitely be able to program it an aperture ring. Then you have two more dials for ISO and exposure compensation, and M.Fn. bar for AF mode selection. Or something like that.


----------



## Canedo (Sep 3, 2018)

fullstop said:


> that's the problem. It is a hard sell to owners of current Canon FF DSLRs. EOS R gets you basically a 5D IV sensor [reviews pending], fully articulated Display, but less fps performance than even a 6D II, especially with Servo-AF. Video features are not fully clear yet. And it is not much smaller and lighter than a 6D II.
> 
> Price not known yet. So value proposition unclear. Relative to 6D II and 5D IV.
> 
> ...


That's Canon strategy all the time, add new features and remove others, flip screen is not a novelty, has been there for years, but sometimes they remove it on purpose.


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> We could read these tea leaves a host of ways:
> 
> 1) Lenses really draw people to the system so regardless of the body spec at launch, the bright shiny thing would be the L lenses.
> 
> ...



I still debate myself, if the high-end MILC is going to use EF directly. At first sight, it might sound logical, but in my book, it would kill EF-R. Imagine having two MILC bodies, buying an expensive EF-R lens, which you can't use on a higher end body? Both being FF? If Canon wants EF-R to succeed, even a high-end model has to have it. Well, imo.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 3, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> My worry is what will happen with the M mount. It will obviously not be compatible with RF. My guess is that Canon will keep it as a cheapo system and will release 1 plastic lens per year with M mount. Quite disappointing.



Small and light.. and as good as possible under the design specifications. If they are cheap, it's because the mount is smaller and the lenses Reggie plastic instead of metal to keep weight down. Based on the intent and design language of the current EF-M lineup, there won't be too many new lenses to release. For example, the excellent EF-S 55-250 translated into the EF-M 55-200 due to size. I believe Canon will fight tooth and nail to build upend I keep dominant the M series segment.


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 3, 2018)

Fascinating that Canon have introduced just two small(ish) lenses with this really quite small FF camera, and two whoppers. Hardly fits the "mirrorless is meant to be small" philosophy. Must be some subliminal message there from Canon on how they intent to take the "R" series forward. 

I believe it's got an AA filter ? If so congratulations on getting that bit right. 
.


----------



## sdz (Sep 3, 2018)

Canedo said:


> That was in the past, and Mobil phones are of the lowest reliability in the market.



Sony is not the only company that sells bug- and cripple-ware to the lower market segments. HP does this as well.


----------



## Jacen (Sep 3, 2018)

The silence from the big names in camera-YouTube-land is quite telling. Ever since the images and specs were released none of them have commented. I imagine we'll see alot of content dropping on Wednesday, assuming that's when the NDA runs out.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 3, 2018)

Sporgon said:


> Fascinating that Canon have introduced just two small(ish) lenses with this really quite small FF camera, and two whoppers. Hardly fits the "mirrorless is meant to be small" philosophy. Must be some subliminal message there from Canon on how they intent to take the "R" series forward.
> 
> I believe it's got an AA filter ? If so congratulations on getting that bit right.
> .


I believe that the big lenses (other than the super teles), tell us that this is going to be the future pro ff mount. The mirror slappers will still be around for awhile until Canon can get the AF tracking frame rate in mirrorless up to 1DX levels. That may take several years.


----------



## Canedo (Sep 3, 2018)

True


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## sebakunstpaul (Sep 3, 2018)

RickWagoner said:


> A few things about Canon you should understand. First off they won't ever release a feature that has not been put through the ringer a million times over and even after developing and more testing into the 99% perfect function of the feature they still would not release it to the public until that one feature works without pause or problem to anything else 100%. There are limits in todays tech that won't be around in tomorrows tech, there are limits one simply can not get around nomatter how much they try. When it comes to overheating, there may not be all that much humanly possible today in a small body they can do without the guarantee the feature won't harm other parts of the body. For example if they could engineer the sensor to not over heat but the amount of heat still causes a shorter life span on a single weather seal in the body then Canon will not do it! You would not believe the amount of people completely outside Canon Corp that are paid to test every single little thing in a body, then test that one thing to how it long term affects every other part or feature in the body, years and years go into their pro level stuff. This is why they are the top patent filer, it's because all the work that goes into every little detail to work 100%.
> 
> Second thing you should know is most of Canon's bodies don't make much profit for them. The 7d2, 5d4, 5ds/r, and 1d bodies are not profitable machines, sometimes they may just break even also. The reason is these are not here to make them rich at all. If you seen the cost of producing, testing, aligning and more testing each mirror mechanism in a 1dx alone you would say it's silly to even sell the camera to the public at any cost. Canons bread and butter are printers, then entry level SLR stuff. These are the products that pay the bills and pay for all the advancements and R&D into the five bodies i mentioned above. Canon has 6 entry level or mid level bodies on the market just to make their higher lines that much better in terms of working all the time. So when a body of a higher model line comes out without a feature you think should be in it, it is not them protecting their profit at all, it is them protecting you from a possible headache of it not working they way it should when you are in the field and your paycheck depends on it. This is what separates Canon from the other makers, Though Nikon does a decent amount of testing but Sony barely does anything much in comparison to Canon. This is why Nikon has the release dates not being met or problems with the first/second or more production lines, this is why Sony just jams in the latest features without any care of it working perfect, jam the features in the body and sell baby sell. To Canon HQ people in Japan it is there name, their honor, their life meaning that the Camera works as intended and they will never chance that being harmed. Luckily for them the millions of people buying silly entry level slr's today will be the future buyers of the higher line bodies tomorrow because by them those people will know Canon always works the way it should.



I highly respect and admire all that effort, really, yet, i need some features to facilitate my work. I gladly buy later a Canon body once they implement what i need, in case i afford and or find economically viable. In case what i already use actually works just fine wouldn't be a good deal, unless would be a significant upgrade. At the point i have the budget ready i will buy the camera that checks all the features i need. If i still have Canon glass at that point compatibility will be probably one of the features i need. I rather buy a good adapter to use my canon glass on a Sony body with IBIS, also being albe to use my vintage glass with IBIS than using my Canon glass on a Canon body without IBIS, not being able to easily use my vintage lenses. Considering a significant part of my work is done in low light 'as it is' without any extra light source, IBiS is very important for me. I just need to move on with my personal agenda, I can't wait endlessly for a certain company to implement a technology that other 3 or 5 companies already implemented with a high level of success. Today when flexibility is on the table with the option to successfully adapt lenses, i will just use what delivers the quality and features that are useful for my work. This is how real life looks.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 3, 2018)

I'll wait for the official shoe to drop but here are some pasted quotes from the PDF or article



> With Ser vo AF: Max. approx. 5.0 fps (shooting speed priority) [Silent LV shooting: Mode 1]
> With Servo AF, the maximum continuous shooting speed may become slower depend- ing on subject conditions or the lens used. Also, the maximum continuous shooting
> 
> Max. approx. 3 .0 fps
> ...



3fps with focus priority 



> EV -6 to 18 (f/1.2, at 73°F/23°C, ISO 100, One-Shot AF)


so...huge disclaimer there that it is with the extremely limited number of lenses that can achieve f/1.2. so meh.

but at least the number of points sounds impressive! Sounds like a preemptive A7SIII move 



> Video: 4K 30p, FullHD 60p, HD 120p


meh. until more details. 4:2:2 internal log? line skipping/binning? cropping?. At least it finally supports H.264...the hottest thing from 5 years ago 
The Z6/7 already has it beat here, not only offering 120p FULL HD but also full width 6K readout w/o line skip (Z6 only), and pretty sure the upcoming A7-S III will come out swinging here in just a couple of months here and crush everybody's video implementation to dust anyway. It is just a question of how badly, not if 
Bitrates and All-I option looks actually decent, but without full width downscaled no line skipped readout....meh. Let alone if internal is only 8bit 4:2:0

I'll wait for the confirmation (I suppose leaked photos or videos) of the lack of a second card and if it is only SD media . The lack of IBIS in the spec sheet  doesn't mean it doesn't have it so I won't believe anything either way until it is officially announced and "reviewed" by the early previewers.

So there you have it. The big "splash" starting with native EF compatibility down to unmatched video, down to "pro body with pro features with pro feel..." so far SEEMS like indeed a splash...from a belly flop  Expectations were to high.

And yes I realize this is just a "rumor" and that the mythical "body in 6-8 months" will fix everything. But that's what everybody says. Tomorrow will bring new stuff without question, including new Sony and Nikon and everybody else's gear. Let tomorrow compete with tomorrow's competitors when that happens.


----------



## Sharlin (Sep 3, 2018)

Canedo said:


> That's Canon strategy all the time, add new features and remove others, flip screen is not a novelty, has been there for years, but sometimes they remove it on purpose.



I don't think they've ever removed a flip screen from any model series. So far they haven't included it in their high-end bodies for an understandable reason: extra moving parts make the camera less rugged. If not in actuality, at least in the perception of many in the target audience.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 3, 2018)

psolberg said:


> So there you have it. The big "splash" starting with native EF compatibility down to unmatched video, down to "pro body with pro features with pro feel..." so far SEEMS like indeed a splash...from a belly flop



^^^this!


----------



## Canedo (Sep 3, 2018)

Ok, after 2 years of debate within my mind and waiting for the right Canon video features for ME, this is my conclusion:
Canon is just reliable , it just works, it is great for stills, but already have a old 40D, and an M6, 40D focus much faster in low light and has better grip than M6. If R is at 2k, i can sell my M system to acquire this one in the future.
For video, I use M6 of course but not 1080p @120fps , neither Canon's R, although the rest of video specs look great, the lack of options for slow motion is what keeps me away from canon, today just purchased a Panasonic GH which unfortunately means spending on more lenses but sadly from another brand, it is what it is but has the video features Canon wants to protect and will keep protecting for the next 10 years, 1080p @120fps is not going to happen soon, so let's see how well it goes.


----------



## Mikelama (Sep 3, 2018)

If you’re interested in this, might as well look at other mirror less offerings Since you’ll be starting off with a new lens mount. The specs simply are boring, crippled even, compared to all other mirrorless offerings from all other manufacturers. No ibis. Everyone offers faster shooting speeds and deeper buffers. I think even Olympus offers better video capabilities. 

There’s really nothing standout here at all. I don’t understand why people will buy this, though I guess it’s canon fanboys who will think it’s something smashing. But you have to have blinders on to think that. 

Yeah, you can use older canon lenses, but they’ll be crippled and way less useful than native lenses. That’s not a good reason to get this.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

To me it still seems like the 28-70 is bait.
“Buy this camera if you want this sweet lens.”

I’ll pass.


----------



## Talys (Sep 3, 2018)

Fwiler said:


> No IBIS is sad, but if those lens selections are true, I won't care.



It is entirely possible that I buy one of these simply because I "must have" the 28-70/2. Then again, one of the reasons I switched from Nikon to Canon a decade-plus ago was that that the Canon lens that were so attractive, at that time, the EFS17-55/2.8 being one of them. Man, that seems like so long ago, now, lol.

I keep hearing IBIS, but at least as someone who does no video, this is not a factor to me. When I used the A7R3 extensively, having IBIS did not increase my keeper rate for birding or candids in any measurable way. The lenses without In-lens IS (like the Sony 85mm/1.8) still required higher shutter speeds; the lenses with in-lens IS (like the Sony 24-105/4) offered more latitude. Would I appreciate it as a feature? Sure, why not. But it wouldn't change a buying decision for either the body or the lenses. I'll take the body with or without IBIS, and I will always prefer the lens with ILIS if it exists (and be willing to pay more and carry more weight for it).



3kramd5 said:


> To me it still seems like the 28-70 is bait.
> “Buy this camera if you want this sweet lens.”
> 
> I’ll pass.



Indeed it does. I might end up taking the bait, though, lol. It all depends on how much I like the feel of the camera, how well the autofocus works, and how EF lens feel on it (adapter, ergonomics, etc.).


----------



## Talys (Sep 3, 2018)

Mikelama said:


> If you’re interested in this, might as well look at other mirror less offerings Since you’ll be starting off with a new lens mount. The specs simply are boring, crippled even, compared to all other mirrorless offerings from all other manufacturers. No ibis. Everyone offers faster shooting speeds and deeper buffers. I think even Olympus offers better video capabilities.
> 
> There’s really nothing standout here at all. I don’t understand why people will buy this, though I guess it’s canon fanboys who will think it’s something smashing. But you have to have blinders on to think that.
> 
> Yeah, you can use older canon lenses, but they’ll be crippled and way less useful than native lenses. That’s not a good reason to get this.



1. In what way will EF lenses be crippled?

2. It's likely to be a standout camera because it has dual pixel autofocus, which is worlds better than any other mirrorless autofocus system. Is there another mirrorless offering that has autofocus competitive with DPAF?

3. Do you buy a camera to take great photographs, or to have a great spec sheet?

4. I suspect most folks who buy this will probably do so if they think it feels good, is a good tool for their type of photography, and improves their work or hobby life in some meaningful way. Of course there are people who will buy it just because it's the latest major Canon release. There are also people who will buy the next major Nikon, Sony, Olympus or Panasonic for the same reason. I have nothing against any of them; they help keep camera manufacturers in business!


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Super thoughtful post. Appreciate your take on this.
> 
> - A



Thanks. We've been through a bit of a roller coaster on this announcement. The first blush assumptions caused by very little data were probably too optimistic (IBIS, native mount, etc.) I think this is what really caused the change in reactions over the days - not a different composition in the audience, as has been suggested. Then a small version of a shark frenzy happened on some of the negative stuff (usually it's quite a bit more noise and then derails the real conversation). 

My prediction:
When everything sugars off, we'll be left with a slightly underpowered FF mirrorless offering to drive some incredible lenses it may or may not deserve. Everyone will expect another shoe to drop with a $3500 version. Rumors will come out that this is going to happen by Christmas, and then spring, and then "in 2019." Once we all give up, Canon will release it, and we'll all be happy. Unicorns and rainbows for everyone in 2019. Oh, wait. Sony will have release the A9II, and we'll be back into "lather and repeat." This isn't a complaint. I think it's great fun.


----------



## Talys (Sep 3, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Once we all give up, Canon will release it, and we'll all be happy. Unicorns and rainbows for everyone in 2019. Oh, wait. Sony will have release the A9II, and we'll be back into "lather and repeat." This isn't a complaint. I think it's great fun.



Too true 

I predict that when the dust settles, there will be 3 tiers of mirrorless FF from Canon, not unlike 6D, 5D and 1D. Those tiers of product and the price points actually do make sense, at least to me. I think it's pretty safe to say that no matter what Canon does, there will be a highly critical and vocal crowd.


----------



## bokehmon22 (Sep 3, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> To me it still seems like the 28-70 is bait.
> “Buy this camera if you want this sweet lens.”
> 
> I’ll pass.



It is bait, but by the time EOS Pro line come out, it would have that lens to entice users to switch over. I wouldn't be surprised if they got another sweet lens when their professional 5D IV/V equivalent camera to come out. I'm skipping this generation, but I'll keep an eye on the next one. 

This lens and rumored 70-130 F2. That's hard to resist.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

scyrene said:


> LOL how DARE a company concentrate on the one thing that keeps them afloat! Sheer arrogance!



Some people really do believe that profits = evil and greed. It really is strange.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> It is bait, but by the time EOS Pro line come out, it would have that lens to entice users to switch over. I wouldn't be surprised if they got another sweet lens when their professional 5D IV/V equivalent camera to come out. I'm skipping this generation, but I'll keep an eye on the next one.
> 
> This lens and rumored 70-130 F2. That's hard to resist.


I’m in no hurry. I don’t want mirrorless for the sake of mirrorless. I buy things when they pique my interest, or offer me some new functionality I want to use.


----------



## herion (Sep 3, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> I still debate myself, if the high-end MILC is going to use EF directly. At first sight, it might sound logical, but in my book, it would kill EF-R. Imagine having two MILC bodies, buying an expensive EF-R lens, which you can't use on a higher end body? Both being FF? If Canon wants EF-R to succeed, even a high-end model has to have it. Well, imo.



Although in a case like this, then all you'd need is a reverse EF/RF adapter...


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

Gazwas said:


> Why is every mirrorless camera expected to be tiny with small but super fast lenses (unobtainable )and has to be a professional video camera???



Super fast M4/3 lenses are not by any means unobtainable.

Don't know why they expect tiny bodies, but there are super fast m4/3 lenses.
Olympus: 17,25,45 f/1.2
Olympus 17,25,45 f/1.8
Olympus 12 f/2
Olympus 14-35 f/2 zoom
Olympus makes many f/2.8 lenses
*Voigtlander 10.5mm f/0.95 Nokton*
*Voigtlander 17.5mm f/0.95 Nokton* 
*Voigtlander 25mm f/0.95 Nokton*
*Voigtlander 425mm f/0.95 Nokton*
*Handevision IBELUX 40mm f/0.85*

Crop factor is 2.

There are pros earning their living with these cameras.

I'm sure there are others out there. I am only familiar with these. They are all small and light. The lenses I have tried are very good by my standards. I don't look at charts or explore corners so I don't know about any of that. However, I hate the body (Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II). Absolutely hate the way it feels in hand. It is difficult for me to manipulate. Way too small for me. My wife is a tiny 4'11" and she loves it.


----------



## tpatana (Sep 3, 2018)

Let's hope this is the $1900 model, and then for the $2990 model they'll add:

42Mpix+
15+fps
dual slot (and hopefully CF)
IBIS


----------



## sebakunstpaul (Sep 3, 2018)

Sporgon said:


> Fascinating that Canon have introduced just two small(ish) lenses with this really quite small FF camera, and two whoppers. Hardly fits the "mirrorless is meant to be small" philosophy. Must be some subliminal message there from Canon on how they intent to take the "R" series forward.
> 
> I believe it's got an AA filter ? If so congratulations on getting that bit right.
> .



You can't get F2 on a zoom without some big glass, is just physics. You want full frame and big F, you get big glass, that is life.
This drama was already solved when people noticed that high end glass on Sony is big ...
Simply put, the camera is smaller, lighter, and you don't have to use all time the big guns.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

JordanRushing said:


> Well yeah, because it was just photos. For some of us, specs matter, and we’re not apologists. We want the best tech and canon isn’t bringing that, whether it’s a lack of experience in the new tech or an unwilling to make a high spec camera and risk cannibalizing their high end dslr market. Which honestly is fine, if that’s the marketing strategy that they want to use, more power to them.
> For people like me it’s now a decision of whether we wait until they _hopefully_ release an actual pro version or we move to a different brand with third party adapters for our canon glass (or just sell them and get some first party mounted glass).
> 
> Canon isn’t going to make everyone happy. Some people want the best specs & quickly and some people want the conservative approach. I think for people like me it’s whether they will even mention the pro version tba on the 5th.



There will be a pro version, but "people want the best specs" is entirely subjective. The best specs are opinion and #s don't always give the full story or what is "best" for any one individual. For some of us the best spec might very well be comfort and heavy weight (me, because the sensor is already fantastic as far as I am concerned... for me). For some the best spec is an optical viewfinder. Some of us couldn't care less about 46 megapixels. We don't want to have to keep buying hard drives. Yup, file size can be selected in camera, but higher and higher megapixels don't impress us. I think Canon (and everyone else) take this into consideration and make the camera for the people they target for sales.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

Mikelama said:


> If you’re interested in this, might as well look at other mirror less offerings Since you’ll be starting off with a new lens mount. The specs simply are boring, crippled even, compared to all other mirrorless offerings from all other manufacturers. No ibis. Everyone offers faster shooting speeds and deeper buffers. I think even Olympus offers better video capabilities.
> 
> There’s really nothing standout here at all. I don’t understand why people will buy this, though I guess it’s canon fanboys who will think it’s something smashing. But you have to have blinders on to think that.
> 
> Yeah, you can use older canon lenses, but they’ll be crippled and way less useful than native lenses. That’s not a good reason to get this.



How would EF be crippled and less useful than native?


----------



## kaptainkatsu (Sep 3, 2018)

At $2000 or less I would definitely buy it. I need a second body to compliment my 1DX2. I have an M50 and its a great little camera for the price (performs much better than spec sheets as others have commented). 

Lack of 1080/120 is kind of a bummer but I have the 1DX2 to do that.


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 3, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> You can't get F2 on a zoom without some big glass, is just physics. You want full frame and big F, you get big glass, that is life.
> This drama was already solved when people noticed that high end glass on Sony is big ...
> Simply put, the camera is smaller, lighter, and you don't have to use all time the big guns.



Hear that whooshing noise ? 
It was my point going straight over your head.


----------



## bokehmon22 (Sep 3, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I’m in no hurry. I don’t want mirrorless for the sake of mirrorless. I buy things when they pique my interest, or offer me some new functionality I want to use.



Same. 5D IV is more than enough for my photographic needs. Just a case of GAS and some extra money for new toys. I don't mind waiting until EOS R is more mature to make it a worthy upgrade.


----------



## bokehmon22 (Sep 3, 2018)

tpatana said:


> Let's hope this is the $1900 model, and then for the $2990 model they'll add:
> 
> 42Mpix+
> 15+fps
> ...



5D IV was priced at $3500.

Here is my wishlist for a $3500 mirrorless camera.

30-36 mpx
10 fps
dual card slot
IBIS
eyeAF.


----------



## tron (Sep 3, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> 5D IV was priced at $3500.
> 
> Here is my wishlist for a $3500 mirrorless camera.
> 
> ...


And a native EF mount please


----------



## Gazwas (Sep 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Super fast M4/3 lenses are not by any means unobtainable.


I think in the context of this discussion my reference is to Canon’s mirrorless option and it’s direct competition all being 36mmx24mm full frame sensors. 

None of the lenses you list were designed to cover anywhere near a full frame sensor and physics ductates fast, high quality lenses for FF will be big and heavy.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> Same. 5D IV is more than enough for my photographic needs. Just a case of GAS and some extra money for new toys. I don't mind waiting until EOS R is more mature to make it a worthy upgrade.


Exactly. 5Div to EOS R is almost certainly a downgrade. Likewise D850 to Z7.


----------



## tmroper (Sep 3, 2018)

Tony Northrup for one will be happy with the top LCD display. So at least we won't have to hear about that issue anymore.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 3, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Exactly. 5Div to EOS R is almost certainly a downgrade. Likewise D850 to Z7.


Too bad Sony has nothing to downgrade from.


----------



## bokehmon22 (Sep 3, 2018)

tron said:


> And a native EF mount please


If they add that, me love you long time Canon.

30-36 mpx
10 fps
dual card slot
IBIS
eyeAF.
native EF lens [added]


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

Gazwas said:


> I think in the context of this discussion my reference is to Canon’s mirrorless option and it’s direct competition all being 36mmx24mm full frame sensors.
> 
> None of the lenses you list were designed to cover anywhere near a full frame sensor and physics ductates fast, high quality lenses for FF will be big and heavy.



The problem, though, is with the physics of the design. Not physics itself. Yes, we were speaking about FF, but it is the design "type" that requires the lenses to be large. There were fast FF lenses in the 35mm (FF) film days that were much smaller because of the design "type". So saying that fast glass in a smaller package is *unobtainable* (That is what you said, meaning "can't be done.) just is not true. With the current type? Maybe. Maybe lenses will be issued later that are fast, smaller, and lighter that are of a different design and still offer quality. What level of quality must they be anyway? Assuming that all FF users require L quality isn't true either. Just look at the EF line of non-L lenses. They are decent quality lenses and people use them on FF cameras, but not many are fast in the Canon line... not true with 3rd party.

I happen to like big heavy lenses. But I also use manual focus 40+ year old manual focus lenses that are small, light, and some are very good quality to my eyes. Let's face it, without MTF charts most people don't see much difference and most don't pixel peep.

Somebody will eventually come up with a really good formula that is FF, small and perfectly acceptable to most people.

I consider Canon's EF 50mm f/1.4 to be fast, small, light, and of good quality. Canon sells gobs. So, not unobtainable at all.


----------



## AuroraChaserDoug (Sep 3, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Too bad Sony has nothing to downgrade from.


Sony upgrades their models almost every year. Canon starts with lower end and then migrates tech to high end. What worked well on M50 is going into EOS R. What works well on this EOS R will go into the next model up the chain.


----------



## Gazwas (Sep 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The problem, though, is with the physics of the design. Not physics itself.


Obviously, I’m not trying to be Stephen Hawking here. 



CanonFanBoy said:


> Yes, we were speaking about FF, but it is the design "type" that requires the lenses to be large. There were fast FF lenses in the 35mm (FF) film days that were much smaller because of the design "type". So saying that fast glass in a smaller package is *unobtainable* (That is what you said) just is not true..


Film is a different beast all together and lenses never nededed to resolve as highly or cope with how sensors accept light at extreme angles. I’ve used plenty of small symetrical lenses on MFD with a pancake cameras and while excellent suffered terrible light fall off and colour cast towards the edges of the frame that needed correction after each capture. Not something any photographer wants and the only solution is to make these small lenses bigger for better coverage meaning you are back to square one. Big symetrical design lens or big retrofocus design whicjh we have now.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Super fast M4/3 lenses are not by any means unobtainable.
> 
> Don't know why they expect tiny bodies, but there are super fast m4/3 lenses.
> Olympus: 17,25,45 f/1.2
> ...


Which, for every practical purpose, makes them effectively 2 stops slower than marked.



CanonFanBoy said:


> Sony upgrades their models almost every year.


Still, a Minolta DSLR with a A7III equivalent sensor could be an interesting camera.


----------



## tpatana (Sep 3, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> 5D IV was priced at $3500.
> 
> Here is my wishlist for a $3500 mirrorless camera.
> 
> ...



Well surely they can cut down the price by $500 if they leave the mirror box and pentaprism out. I'm sure those add about $500 for the price.

So $2990 it is.


----------



## Sharlin (Sep 4, 2018)

tpatana said:


> Well surely they can cut down the price by $500 if they leave the mirror box and pentaprism out. I'm sure those add about $500 for the price.
> 
> So $2990 it is.



A) economy and price setting doesn't work like that and B) the EVF is one of the most expensive components of a mirrorless camera.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> the EVF is one of the most expensive components of a mirrorless camera.


That's unlikely.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

JBSF said:


> No Canon body has IBIS. Canon is not in the business of making money for Sigma. Canon has never prevented Sigma from making lenses that mount and function on Canon bodies. Sigma lives with it.



EVERY Sony alpha body has IBIS. Sony is not in the business of making money for Sigma. Sony has never prevented Sigma from making lenses that mount and function on Sony bodies. Sigma lives with it.


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Spent a good part of weekend observing commentary and analysis of this forum. It is fantastic. No better forum for bouncing observations, and on the whole it has been kept very fact focused.
> 
> Different people have different needs, of course. For some, lack of focus peaking (if even true) is a deal breaker. For others, it is a card slot. I respect that. That said, I draw a line when judging this release between factors that are legitimately disappointing and factors that just would have been nice. That line is this: whether or not the feature is actually a step back from current DSLR feature set versus something we’d like that Canon has never previously provided.
> 
> ...



For the record, I take issue with your assertion that adapters aren't an issue

Travel photography and juggling a large bag containing a 5D and M5 and mixture of EF and EF-M lenses is hard work in my experience. 

With a homogenous setup you just take one lens off, take the cap off the upcoming lens, put it onto the offgoing lens, and fit the upcoming lens. Easy.

But with the adapter you have caps all over the place - whenever moving from EF-M to EF or vice versa, you have to bring in extra caps or retire some. It sounds simple but trying to move an adapter from one lens to the next as well as moving caps in and out is stressful, frustrating and time consuming and the extra time runs the risk of introducing more dust into the equation.

Something I personally never want to do again.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> That's unlikely.


If I were to hazard a guess:
1) image sensor
2) processor
3) chassis
4) EVF
5) circuit card assembly (less processor)
6) other printed circuits (flex cables, daughter boards)


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## Don Haines (Sep 4, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> EVERY Sony alpha body has IBIS. Sony is not in the business of making money for Sigma. Sony has never prevented Sigma from making lenses that mount and function on Sony bodies. Sigma lives with it.


Here's how that would work in the real world.....

Canon decides to deliberately make third party lenses not work with their bodies....
Every store clerk says "Don't buy Canon, they don't work with anyone elses lenses"....
Canon sales plummet......

No way would they do that.....


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## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Let me know how a more mature system makes your hands feel at the end of a day of shooting with big f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes.
> 
> - A



Yes, absolutely, agreed.

What I was hoping for was a nice comfortable 5D4 with an EVF, Eye Focus and IBIS.

To which I would hang off my heavy unstabilized 24-70 , heavy 70-200 f/2.8 and my unstabilized Sigma Art primes. 

Instead, a somewhat uglier, smaller camera with no IBIS nor eye focus. 

Meanwhile, whilst Sony have the IBIS and Eye Focus toys they don't have the body I'm looking for ... alpha is way too small for my heavy lenses.

Roll on 2019 ... 

Deep down, my real concern is that perhaps Canon simply don't have the technical maturity to match Sony when it comes to the technology ... not yet at least ...


----------



## siegsAR (Sep 4, 2018)

Lost interest on this camera 15 pages ago, it's not what I want and needed. I'm sure this new line will be a success in the future.

Unless there's a big surprise on the actual launch, but meh for now, I just want the new M5 MkII.


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## Halfcreeks (Sep 4, 2018)

Any idea on flash sync speed? Read through the info and did not see it listed, wondering if I missed it.


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

Halfcreeks said:


> Any idea on flash sync speed? Read through the info and did not see it listed, wondering if I missed it.


If they reuse 6DII mechanical shutter (why wouldn't they?), it's 1/180 s.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Here's how that would work in the real world.....
> 
> Canon decides to deliberately make third party lenses not work with their bodies....
> Every store clerk says "Don't buy Canon, they don't work with anyone elses lenses"....
> ...



My point was to question whether there is a financial incentive for Canon to withhold IBIS in order to encourage the sales of their IS lenses over those 3rd parties such a Sigma who don't have IS on many of their Art lenses.

Perhaps Canon are doing this merely due to technical immaturity, or perhaps for commercial reasons. Who knows ?

Canon seem to be doing just fine financially - despite 3rd party lenses having far worse Auto Focus hit rates ... 

Customers are buying their cameras and lenses in droves ... but might well make less money if they supplied IBIS so that those same customers could get stabilized pictures whilst avoiding Canon's eye-watering IS lens prices !

Not a question of compatibility ... more facility.


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## ethermine (Sep 4, 2018)

Here’s a handful of unsoliceted thoughts. Feel free to skip right past all this if you’re not interested in some specific personal opinion:

I find the complaints on this camera fascinating. It takes a rather inefficient mindset to incessantly complain about a product that isn’t designed how you want it to be. I’m curious what these people are realistically hoping for. Out of all the equipment that’s out there, I’m sure something exists that’s within your budget that will allow you do produce images/video that not only looks good, but you can show off in whatever platform you deal with, regardless if you’re making money off of it. 

Now, if your business is in its infancy and you’re not even making enough to sustain yourself consistently without being supported by other means, then you obviously need to focus on using equipment within your budget. It’s futile to demand brand new professional level gear with specs usually found in higher end equipment be reduced in price to suit your small budget. If you can’t produce a reasonably good product that’s sellable within that budget, then it’s time to find new work. 

I suppose I was taught to first focus on what I actually need, and then figure out what equipment would allow me to attain the result based on those needs. As an example, and in my particular case it looks something like this:

I’m a destination wedding photographer with extremely steady hands. I’m in good shape and the weight of equipment doesn’t bother me, even hauling long distances over a long period of time. My Holdfast straps are extremely reliable for that. I don’t shoot thousands of photos per job, as I’m pretty sharp about taking a photo when I see something that catches my eye, as opposed to taking dozens in a row in hopes I got something usable. I rarely use a swift burst mode. I usually end up with a couple to few hundred at the very most after a 10-12hr gig. I shoot mostly available light, with using lighting gear when absolutely necessary. My gear needs to be reliable, weather resistant, my bodies have good dynamic range, and my focus needs to be relatively swift and accurate, etc.

Now, when considering these things, does this new camera check all those boxes? I’m not sure, as there are no reviews or image samples. The spec sheet alone tells me mostly yes, but I’m wise enough to save any decision until I get all the facts. As it sits now, I can at least take an educated guess and say this would probably compliment my current gear setup, or perhaps allow me to retire some aging equipment to replace. If it doesn’t, I’ll patiently wait for something that will be suitable, or if I need it sooner than later, I’ll just pick up a piece of gear that’s out there I know will be suitable.

Cheers!


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## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

Talys said:


> It is entirely possible that I buy one of these simply because I "must have" the 28-70/2. Then again, one of the reasons I switched from Nikon to Canon a decade-plus ago was that that the Canon lens that were so attractive, at that time, the EFS17-55/2.8 being one of them. Man, that seems like so long ago, now, lol.
> 
> I keep hearing IBIS, but at least as someone who does no video, this is not a factor to me. When I used the A7R3 extensively, having IBIS did not increase my keeper rate for birding or candids in any measurable way. The lenses without In-lens IS (like the Sony 85mm/1.8) still required higher shutter speeds; the lenses with in-lens IS (like the Sony 24-105/4) offered more latitude. Would I appreciate it as a feature? Sure, why not. But it wouldn't change a buying decision for either the body or the lenses. I'll take the body with or without IBIS, and I will always prefer the lens with ILIS if it exists (and be willing to pay more and carry more weight for it).
> 
> ...



I'd like IBIS to reduce noise when taking indoor portraits without flash ... it would make a major difference to the image quality of pictures taken with (say) my Sigma 85 1.4.


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## Don Haines (Sep 4, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> My point was to question whether there is a financial incentive for Canon to withhold IBIS in order to encourage the sales of their IS lenses over those 3rd parties such a Sigma who don't have IS on many of their Art lenses.
> 
> Perhaps Canon are doing this merely due to technical immaturity, or perhaps for commercial reasons. Who knows ?
> 
> ...


Personally, I think that they are holding onto IBIS for higher end mirrorless models... They are going to need a few "killer functions" to differentiate from the R..... possibly IBIS, 120FPS video (or higher!), and some very fast burst modes..... (just my guess)


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## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Personally, I think that they are holding onto IBIS for higher end mirrorless models... They are going to need a few "killer functions" to differentiate from the R..... possibly IBIS, 120FPS video (or higher!), and some very fast burst modes..... (just my guess)



we all live in hope


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

ethermine said:


> I’m curious what these people are realistically hoping for.



Camera with the ergo of a 5D, body size of an iPhone, sensor of a PhaseOne IQ4, processor of national security data mining operation, narrow lens mount which natively takes EF lenses, video capabilities of a Red Helium, and built-in gigLTE for near-real-time AI-based autofocus.

Oh and a flip out screen.


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## JBSF (Sep 4, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Camera with the ergo of a 5D, body size of an iPhone, sensor of a PhaseOne IQ4, processor of national security data mining operation, narrow lens mount which natively takes EF lenses, video capabilities of a Red Helium, and built-in gigLTE for near-real-time AI-based autofocus.
> 
> Oh and a flip out screen.



You left out the price: $500


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## scyrene (Sep 4, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> Yes, absolutely, agreed.
> 
> What I was hoping for was a nice comfortable 5D4 with an EVF, Eye Focus and IBIS.
> 
> ...



IBIS and 'eye focus' are all that matter nowadays of course


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## deleteme (Sep 4, 2018)

I think the most important thing about this announcement is that it is a strategic move by Canon to forestall switchers and signal a serious commitment to mirrorless bodies. 
The "announced" R lenses indicate serious investment and the alleged 28-70 f2 puts a marker down to signal to all the fast glass enthusiasts that they are being very serious about the mount.
As for the low spec body. We have no real idea what final form it may take but a low end ML body would not be an error as it represents something that could be bargain priced to entice newbies and would be switchers. Enthusiasts longing for the higher end bodies may need to long a little while more but would be possibly kept from switching. In addition it allows the teething of a new product to be worked out on a more forgiving audience than the loud mouths on various fora and SM.


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## deleteme (Sep 4, 2018)

ethermine said:


> I suppose I was taught to first focus on what I actually need, and then figure out what equipment would allow me to attain the result based on those needs.


I "know" you need a 28-70 f2. I just KNOW it!


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

JBSF said:


> You left out the price: $500


At the most!

Also, power life of a nuclear submarine.


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## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Which, for every practical purpose, makes them effectively 2 stops slower than marked.



Okay, how so? f/2 is f/2 so please tell me what you mean? I'd like to learn this.


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## ethermine (Sep 4, 2018)

Normalnorm said:


> I "know" you need a 28-70 f2. I just KNOW it!



Hah! Hey, I said I first focus on the practical. Second, I focus on what I desperately want with a profound, “gimme, gimme, gimme!” attitude.


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## Durf (Sep 4, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Camera with the ergo of a 5D, body size of an iPhone, sensor of a PhaseOne IQ4, processor of national security data mining operation, narrow lens mount which natively takes EF lenses, video capabilities of a Red Helium, and built-in gigLTE for near-real-time AI-based autofocus.
> 
> Oh and a flip out screen.



It does make me wonder what some of these complainers are shooting with now.....obviously a camera that isn't good enough because it lacks many features.
It must suck waiting forever for a camera to be made that's good enough to take a satisfactory picture or video......


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## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

Durf said:


> It does make me wonder what some of these complainers are shooting with now.....obviously a camera that isn't good enough because it lacks many features.
> It must suck waiting forever for a camera to be made that's good enough to take a satisfactory picture or video......


 Love your journal and videos, Durf!


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

Durf said:


> It does make me wonder what some of these complainers are shooting with now.....obviously a camera that isn't good enough because it lacks many features.
> It must suck waiting forever for a camera to be made that's good enough to take a satisfactory picture or video......


And don't get me wrong, I like buying stuff. I buy all sorts of things I don't need. But I don't have an agenda, so to speak. There is no such thing as a camera which is "perfect for me," they're all just value propositions wrapped in entertainment with a little income on the side.


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## Bentley Boy (Sep 4, 2018)

Has anyone noticed that the “Canon PDF” looks like a fake or dumbed-down version? Every mirrorless they makes with an EVF, which is admittedly only two, lists the number of dots. Both the M50 and M5 PDF specs list 2.36 mil dots. How is it that they wouldn’t list them here for the new camera?


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## beachcolonist (Sep 4, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> What's the AF ev for the 5dmk4, -3 with a 2.8 lens?
> 
> This is -6 with a 1.2, so is that actually better or is it about the same in practice?





Isaacheus said:


> What's the AF ev for the 5dmk4, -3 with a 2.8 lens?
> 
> This is -6 with a 1.2, so is that actually better or is it about the same in practice?



~~~~
Your question is meaningless. You need to look up what EV means. See the chart here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value 

EV can be meaningly mentioned in ref to how dark you still attain auto focusing or metering, or with ref to available shutter/fstop combo coverage without using B. Every camera uses the same exposure combo for any given EV. In fact old meters simply read out an EV# that you'd transfer to a scale to see your full range of exposure combos that will work - regardless of camera. EV is therfore not a characteristic of a camera. it is a simple single number for the measure of light power available at the scene, irrespective of equipment.

If camera X will focus at EV-6, & camera Y at EV-3 then X will focus in 3 stops less light and is better. You just compare EV numbers, the lower has a stronger low light capability period. There is always confusion over this, as with GN (guide number) in flash.


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## kj_in_hk (Sep 4, 2018)

When and where will the announcement be made? We know it will be made on 5th Sept but shouldn't there be a pre-announcement of the annoucement , so the public will know where to look? it's still so secretive up to now.


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

BillB said:


> I would put ease of handling on the list of intangibles as well. The 5DIV touchscreen interface is a joy to use. As far as specs are concerned what often gets lost is how important the differences in the numbers really are, in terms of actual picture taking.



It looks like the Canon R is introducing a new UX.


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## vjlex (Sep 4, 2018)

Bentley Boy said:


> Has anyone noticed that the “Canon PDF” looks like a fake or dumbed-down version? Every mirrorless they makes with an EVF, which is admittedly only two, lists the number of dots. Both the M50 and M5 PDF specs list 2.36 mil dots. How is it that they wouldn’t list them here for the new camera?



I was wondering if the pdf wasn't just a draft. It may not be the final version of full specifications, as a few other details are missing.


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## Timedog (Sep 4, 2018)

Can you explain why the camera would have different low light focusing capabilities with a lower f stop lens?


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## JustForFun (Sep 4, 2018)

I thought it might be interesting to inject a different viewpoint. Being an amateur photographer who is not particularly wealthy, I find it interesting to read others' commentaries on various photographic gear. For me, time is running out. I would like to update my camera body one more time. Reading forums such as this are educational and informative from a technical standpoint and do add to my knowledge base concerning camera operational capabilities. However, I probably need to focus my attention on more basic topics. My concern at the moment is not with these mirrorless cameras, which from reading everyone's comments, sound like they need further research and development. At the moment, I own a Canon 80D as well as a few good Canon lenses, and my wish is for the next iteration of this Canon DSLR camera line, i.e. a "90D"? I think it is about all that I can honestly afford. In a nutshell, not everyone can afford to "keep up with the Joneses" in the world of photography. Good luck to all of you who apparently can.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> Can you explain why the camera would have different low light focusing capabilities with a lower f stop lens?


Wider aperture = more light and more accurate focusing.


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## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> By the way, interesting how the squarish OLED light-on-dark top display suddenly became trendy. I mean, Leica has it, Phase One has it, Fuji has it, Nikon has it, and now Canon has it.




More contrasty, perhaps less need to hunt around for the illumination button in the dark?


CanonFanBoy said:


> How would EF be crippled and less useful than native?




Other way around, gang. EF won't be crippled, but RF may outperform EF w.r.t. to focus speed, handling with manual focusing / peaking, etc.

I see EF working on EOS R as well as EF works on a recent SLR with DPAF in LiveView. 

But it's possible the new lenses do better on the new mount than EF does in Liveview on SLRs today. 

- A


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## Frodo (Sep 4, 2018)

beachcolonist said:


> ~~~~
> Your question is meaningless. You need to look up what EV means. See the chart here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value
> 
> EV can be meaningly mentioned in ref to how dark you still attain auto focusing or metering, or with ref to available shutter/fstop combo coverage without using B. Every camera uses the same exposure combo for any given EV. In fact old meters simply read out an EV# that you'd transfer to a scale to see your full range of exposure combos that will work - regardless of camera. EV is therfore not a characteristic of a camera. it is a simple single number for the measure of light power available at the scene, irrespective of equipment.
> ...



Hey BC
Are you correct? I agree that with the same lenses "If camera X will focus at EV-6, & camera Y at EV-3 then X will focus in 3 stops less light and is better". But if camera X is fitted with an f/1.2 lens, it will focus at lower light (measured as EV) than camera Z fitted with an f/2.8 lens simply because more light is getting to the AF system.


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

What interests me the most about the EOS R is the new user experience (UX) that this camera is debuting for Canon. The knurled third ring, the slider and the possible rumoured higher comes rate all suggest that. That Canon would change a time tested UX and replace it with new one is impressive.


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## mb66energy (Sep 4, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> You can't get F2 on a zoom without some big glass, is just physics. You want full frame and big F, you get big glass, that is life.
> This drama was already solved when people noticed that high end glass on Sony is big ...
> Simply put, the camera is smaller, lighter, and you don't have to use all time the big guns.



I think there is another reason for mirrorless: More variability for lens element placement due to the lacking mirror region. Maybe this is the only reason for the existence of a large f/2 28-70 which were ultra large if you had to do strong retrofocus for a SLR. Both targeting the same IQ level to be comparable.

And I am with you in your last line: I enjoy my M50 just with the 70-200 f/4 but if I want just a small camera with a medium bright lens I use the EF-M 22 which makes it a good current version of these 35mm compact cameras with ... 35mm lenses!


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## dd4771 (Sep 4, 2018)

PDF looks fake to me, Canon always mentions DIGIC processor detail in spec sheet and this info is missing here. Have you even seen canon is mentioning word "Canon Original" for RAW and C-RAW in their spec sheet...?? its fake


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## Romz26 (Sep 4, 2018)

dd4771 said:


> PDF looks fake to me, Canon always mentions DIGIC processor detail in spec sheet and this info is missing here. Have you even seen canon is mentioning word "Canon Original" for RAW and C-RAW in their spec sheet...?? its fake


it could of been a rough translation! Or Canon trolling the internet with bogus specs


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

Romz26 said:


> it could of been a rough translation! Or Canon trolling the internet with bogus specs


Or not Canon...


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Okay, how so? f/2 is f/2 so please tell me what you mean? I'd like to learn this.


"f/2" means "the aperture is half the focal length".

If everything important in front of the camera is the same (light, distance to different objects in the scene) and the same object is in focus, it's the absolute size (and shape) of the entrance pupil that determines DoF and bokeh effects of the resulting picture. The rays of light that come from the points on the scene toward your sensor do not know the focal length of your lens; all they "know" is that once they pass the entrance pupil, they are in and are forming the image.

If, in addition, the angle of view is the same, it's the absolute size (and shape) of the entrance pupil that determines the intensity of the light hitting the sensor (if there is no light loss between the entrance pupil and the sensor).


----------



## NicoN (Sep 4, 2018)

Bentley Boy said:


> Has anyone noticed that the “Canon PDF” looks like a fake or dumbed-down version? Every mirrorless they makes with an EVF, which is admittedly only two, lists the number of dots. Both the M50 and M5 PDF specs list 2.36 mil dots. How is it that they wouldn’t list them here for the new camera?


Its either a fake or draft. As I said before it can't be that you can shoot unlimited dual pixel raw and not normal raw in burst mode. Dual Pixel raw is twice as large. An the strange USB specs with wft e7 (5d Mark iii) does not make any sense. Also there is no mention of eye af. I am sure it's in there. M50 has is why not put on a body 3-4 times the price. Makes no sense. Resolution won't be a problem this is 30 vs 24 Mpixels and since face detection works the region of interest (box around the face) is basically the same since eye af must only evaluation the section where a face is detected and not the whole frame.


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## pj1974 (Sep 4, 2018)

The (rumoured!) EOS R specs are interesting for me... I have read this entire thread!! Phew... 
As I own a couple of Canon DSLRs, and Canon APS-C mirrorless cameras, I am excited to see what Canon will bring to the FF mirrorless arena.

The main aspects that are important to me in Canon's first FF Mirrorlss are: good ergonomics, improved AF (compared to the already very good live view DPAF), great IQ and a decent range of lenses (and compatibility with other accessories, e.g. Speedlite flashes, triggers, remotes, etc)
If the model described above (and some of the 'leaked' specs) are the lower end FF model, with a higher end FF mirrorless still to come, that makes sense to me.
e.g. 2 card slots, improved FPS, etc, possibly IBIS).

Regarding the pdf with the specs, I think it may be a draft (more likely than a fake, imho) - as there are indeed some aspects that don't add up.
Still good to get these 'pre-announcement details!) Nokash&ta's last minute "releases" of gear photos and specs are usually very accurate, and are indeed very helpful.... 
Canon has wisely provided the lists of those lenses, upon release.. and more to come. A good move... and some very exciting lenses among them.
I am sure the Mirrorless market will mature in the next 3 years (somewhat similarly to how the DSLR market did in the mid to late 2000's).
That's when the major players will make most of their profits. And we'll see features unleashed on (lower end) models at increasing rates. 

Good times to be a photographer and consumer of photographic goods (& services).

Cheers

PJ


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

NicoN said:


> Its either a fake or draft. As I said before it can't be that you can shoot unlimited dual pixel raw and not normal raw in burst mode. Dual Pixel raw is twice as large.


It can if its writing speed is higher than 120 MB/s. DP raw "bursts" are 2.2 fps. Normal raw burst are 5 (servo AF) or 8 (one-shot AF) fps.


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## Canedo (Sep 4, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> we all live in hope


 And this is every year, it continues until some of us give up...


----------



## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

JustForFun said:


> I thought it might be interesting to inject a different viewpoint. Being an amateur photographer who is not particularly wealthy, I find it interesting to read others' commentaries on various photographic gear. For me, time is running out. I would like to update my camera body one more time. Reading forums such as this are educational and informative from a technical standpoint and do add to my knowledge base concerning camera operational capabilities. However, I probably need to focus my attention on more basic topics. My concern at the moment is not with these mirrorless cameras, which from reading everyone's comments, sound like they need further research and development. At the moment, I own a Canon 80D as well as a few good Canon lenses, and my wish is for the next iteration of this Canon DSLR camera line, i.e. a "90D"? I think it is about all that I can honestly afford. In a nutshell, not everyone can afford to "keep up with the Joneses" in the world of photography. Good luck to all of you who apparently can.



Just a thought when reading your post, but a used-but-great-condition 5D3 and similar condition 70-200 f/4, both off eBay would get you into another world for the price of a new 90D ... and would give you outstanding full frame photography. I've bought several used cameras and lenses from eBay and they have been in practically new condition .... a lot of people really look after their gear well !!!


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## syyeung1 (Sep 4, 2018)

kj_in_hk said:


> When and where will the announcement be made? We know it will be made on 5th Sept but shouldn't there be a pre-announcement of the annoucement , so the public will know where to look? it's still so secretive up to now.



Canon Hong Kong will have a live Facebook event at 9pm on 5 Sept local time.


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## David Littleboy (Sep 4, 2018)

siegsAR said:


> Lost interest on this camera 15 pages ago, it's not what I want and needed. I'm sure this new line will be a success in the future.
> 
> Unless there's a big surprise on the actual launch, but meh for now, I just want the new M5 MkII.



Huh? The only* thing wrong with the M5 Mk1 is the lack of a 16-64 (4x) f/4.0 (constant aperture) IS zoom. Come on, Canon. That'd be an easy way to rip gobs of money out of my, and lots of other folks, pockets.

All the squawking and wailing here (including mine!), though, is because the EOS-R doesn't push the envelope much. Everyone here is a pro or a camera nerd, and none of us got the particular bell or whistle that s/he wanted. But a 30MP camera with a lighter body and smaller/lighter (and hopefully better) 24-105/4.0 IS will be a really great camera for a lot of people. FF without the pain of the 5D2 +24-70/2.8. "Good show, Canon" is what we should be saying.

*: I know, I know. Video. I don't do video, but tried it. The battery drained instantly and the camera got almost hot enough to burn my hands. Sheesh. Since I don't do video, I love the M5 Mk1.


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## Timedog (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Wider aperture = more light and more accurate focusing.


oh sorry, i meant to quote Beachcolonist above, who said it was meaningless to compare the 5dIV's -3EV focusing at 2.8 to the R's -6EV at 1.2. It seems to me that you SHOULD be able to make a cursory, extrapolated comparison based on the information you just stated.


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## kj_in_hk (Sep 4, 2018)

syyeung1 said:


> Canon Hong Kong will have a live Facebook event at 9pm on 5 Sept local time.


Thanks SYY!


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 4, 2018)

OMG! I want to shoot an ibis with an EOS R 

Joking aside, it looks like a solid camera with some pros and cons, nothing groundbreaking - but I didn't expect this from Canon, given their conservative but solid performance in the past years. They seem to invest more secretly under the hood e.g. in the lens production line to achieve a level of consistent high quality (well adjusted lenses) ahead of the competition. Unfortunately, such quality can't be seen in spec lists and fancy marketing videos. I personally appreciate this, because it's the lenses that you keep for many years, not a digital camera - that's the reason why I never would buy a digital Leica, because a classic film Leica grows with its patina over decades, a sensor only degrades.


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## Timedog (Sep 4, 2018)

I respect the usability of Canon cameras, and how things "just work". But you don't have to have a camera that's 5 years behind tech-wise to have things just work correctly. Even 1 year is an eternity with modern technology, and they're literally 5 years behind in many areas. There's no excuse if something like their sensor tech can't match the d750 from 4 years ago. They make the most money, they have the biggest potential budget. I hope at least the sensor is better. 

The insanely weird "they are in the business of making money, not making cameras with modern specs" argument is just wild. Why on earth, as a consumer, would I be in favor of Canon making a boatload of money, vs. making a more reasonable amount of money and spending a little more of that cash to give me a better product? A camera that gives me the stuff other cameras had 3-5 years ago AS WELL as the cool Canon innovations. They certainly have enough money to do so, that's inarguable. I want the best best camera at the best price. If you are a consumer and you're arguing for Canon's bottom line, you are arguing against yourself in favor of a faceless corporation. That is fanboyism at its worst. 

We'll see if this is just a 5DIV sensor. We'll see about the price. The announcement is soon. But no one should be satisfied if this turns out to be another significantly sub-par offering. "Canon is in the business of making money" is not a good argument against anyone's disappointment.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> oh sorry, i meant to quote Beachcolonist above, who said it was meaningless to compare the 5dIV's -3EV focusing at 2.8 to the R's -6EV at 1.2. It seems to me that you SHOULD be able to make a cursory, extrapolated comparison based on the information you just stated.



We've already had it in this thread, but I'll just repeat the simple extrapolation using the standard scale with 1/3 stop increment (1.0 1.1 1.2 1.4 1.6 1.8 2 2.2 2.5 2.8 3.2 3.5 4) 

-6EV @ f1.2
-5EV @ f1.8
-4EV @ f2.5
-3EV @ f3.5

If 5D4 does -3EV at f2.8, then there's 2/3 stops between f2.8 and f3.5, so R does AF by 2/3 stops better than 5D4. If it somehow corresponds to the dynamic range of the sensor, we're going to get a pretty good sensor at D850 level.


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## vjlex (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> I respect the usability of Canon cameras, and how things "just work". But you don't have to have a camera that's 5 years behind tech-wise to have things just work correctly. Even 1 year is an eternity with modern technology, and they're literally 5 years behind in many areas. There's no excuse if something like their sensor tech can't match the d750 from 4 years ago. They make the most money, they have the biggest potential budget. I hope at least the sensor is better.
> 
> The insanely weird "they are in the business of making money, not making cameras with modern specs" argument is just wild. Why on earth, as a consumer, would I be in favor of Canon making a boatload of money, vs. making a more reasonable amount of money and spending a little more of that cash to give me a better product? A camera that gives me the stuff other cameras had 3-5 years ago AS WELL as the cool Canon innovations. They certainly have enough money to do so, that's inarguable. I want the best best camera at the best price. If you are a consumer and you're arguing for Canon's bottom line, you are arguing against yourself in favor of a faceless corporation. That is fanboyism at its worst.
> 
> We'll see if this is just a 5DIV sensor. We'll see about the price. The announcement is soon. But no one should be satisfied if this turns out to be another significantly sub-par offering. "Canon is in the business of making money" is not a good argument against anyone's disappointment.



For the life of me, I don't understand the "they are a business, they know what's best for their customers" line of reasoning either, but a lot of people employ it here and see it as perfectly reasonable. Let me rephrase that- I understand the reasoning, but I find it wholly irrelevant to pretty much any discussion regarding available technology that is or is not being implemented for "reasons". Especially on a technology rumors/speculation/wishlist site.


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## Timedog (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> We've already had it in this thread, but I'll just repeat the simple extrapolation using the standard scale with 1/3 stop increment (1.0 1.1 1.2 1.4 1.6 1.8 2 2.2 2.5 2.8 3.2 3.5 4)
> 
> -6EV @ f1.2
> -5EV @ f1.8
> ...


What you're saying, which makes complete sense to me, seems to refute what Beachcolonist is saying. His/her comment made no sense to me.

I'd imagine the increase in lowlight focus you've extrapolated here is either due to a better, lower noise, higher DR sensor, or from better processing/algorithms from digic 8/8+. I'm hoping for the former. If we have a D850 level sensor and a flip screen at a decent price(2000-2500) I'll be more than happy to forego IBIS, 120fps, and non-cropped 4k. To me, sensor is king when it comes to taking better photographs, and I'm 90% photographer, 10% videographer.


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## jbourne (Sep 4, 2018)

I wonder.

- Why no GPS? Am I the only one that absolutely loves having a GPS for time sync, location tagging without using a phone, etc?
- I'm not an expert on flange distances and so on, but will this work with old manual focus C/Y (Contax) lenses, M42 mount lenses, etc? My 6D is spectacular for those, though the mirror hits some of the more interesting lenses (Mir-1A 37, some others)... I know the Nikon D's can't take those because of the focal distance.


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> I respect the usability of Canon cameras, and how things "just work". But you don't have to have a camera that's 5 years behind tech-wise to have things just work correctly. Even 1 year is an eternity with modern technology, and they're literally 5 years behind in many areas. There's no excuse if something like their sensor tech can't match the d750 from 4 years ago. They make the most money, they have the biggest potential budget. I hope at least the sensor is better.


Does d750 have DPAF?



Timedog said:


> The insanely weird "they are in the business of making money, not making cameras with modern specs" argument is just wild. Why on earth, as a consumer, would I be in favor of Canon making a boatload of money, vs. making a more reasonable amount of money and spending a little more of that cash to give me a better product?


I am not a consumer in this particular market [sub]segment, so I am in favor of Canon making a boatload of money on this camera and then spending this money on making a camera I would want.



Timedog said:


> I want the best best camera at the best price.


And I want a pony.

Well, actually not, but you got the idea.


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> If 5D4 does -3EV at f2.8, then there's 2/3 stops between f2.8 and f3.5, so R does AF by 2/3 stops better than 5D4. If it somehow corresponds to the dynamic range of the sensor, we're going to get a pretty good sensor at D850 level.


I think the numbers for 5D4 are for the dedicated AF sensor, not for DPAF.


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## symmar22 (Sep 4, 2018)

jbourne said:


> I wonder.
> 
> - Why no GPS? Am I the only one that absolutely loves having a GPS for time sync, location tagging without using a phone, etc?
> - I'm not an expert on flange distances and so on, but will this work with old manual focus C/Y (Contax) lenses, M42 mount lenses, etc? My 6D is spectacular for those, though the mirror hits some of the more interesting lenses (Mir-1A 37, some others)... I know the Nikon D's can't take those because of the focal distance.



Of course as soon as we'll get 3rd party adapter vintage glass should adapt. I'am waiting for a FF mirrorless mainly for the purpose of having a light(er) and small(er) camera that can work with some (excellent) vintage lenses and be able to get proper viewfinder focus with them (contrary to modern DSLRs). On top of that, the mirror removal allows even more lens selection, like Canon FD or lenses that could not work due to mirror clearance (5D series can be annoying due to mirror design) like the Leica 24mm R or some C/Y lenses.


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## jbourne (Sep 4, 2018)

symmar22 said:


> Of course as soon as we'll get 3rd party adapter vintage should adapt. I'am waiting for a FF mirrorless mainly for the purpose of having a light(er) and small(er) camera that can work with some (excellent) vintage lenses and be able to get proper viewfinder focus with them (contrary to modern DSLRs). On top of that, the mirror removal allows even more lens selection, like Canon FD or lenses that could not work due to mirror clearance (5D series can be annoying due to mirror design) like the Leica 24mm R or some C/Y lenses.


Right exactly, and the 5D was a worse offender than the 6D with mirror clearance, so even more lenses do not work with the 5D than with the 6D.

That's good news, then. I hope the manual focus assist will be as good as on the Sony...


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> What you're saying, which makes complete sense to me, seems to refute what Beachcolonist is saying. His/her comment made no sense to me.
> 
> I'd imagine the increase in lowlight focus you've extrapolated here is either due to a better, lower noise, higher DR sensor, or from better processing/algorithms from digic 8/8+. I'm hoping for the former. If we have a D850 level sensor and a flip screen at a decent price(2000-2500) I'll be more than happy to forego IBIS, 120fps, and non-cropped 4k. To me, sensor is king when it comes to taking better photographs, and I'm 90% photographer, 10% videographer.



That's what I was thinking, too. I do a lot of landscape photography including night-scapes so I'm all after the higher DR, low-light AF, flip screen and weather-sealed body. So far I've been satisfied with how my 5D4 is sealed, it's been exposed to different conditions to say the least and it works ok so far.

Single-card slot and AA filter on the R sensor are big downsides though, so I'll likely be waiting for a higher end camera with hopefully greater resolution and hopefully with no AA filter.


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## Timedog (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Does d750 have DPAF?


No, the d750 doesn't have every single Canon innovation. That's completely missing my point. Canon could have d750 sensor tech AND DPAF if they chose to. 




Kit. said:


> I am not a consumer in this particular market segment, so I am in favor of Canon making a boatload of money on this camera and then spending this money on making a camera I would want.


Hopefully, if this camera is disappointing, the rumored "pro body" has the stuff this is missing. If that's the case I might just save up a few extra months and buy that. 



Kit. said:


> And I want a pony.
> 
> Well, actually not, but you got the idea.


If the competitors have supplied ponies for the last decade at a reasonable price, yeah, I'd want a pony too.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> I think the numbers for 5D4 are for the dedicated AF sensor, not for DPAF.



Good point. So yeah maybe these figures cannot be used for indirect sensor comparison between R and 5D4. Still they show the R sensor is good in low light.


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## BillB (Sep 4, 2018)

RunAnon said:


> FFS I'm pronouncing it dead FOR ME.


I guess that is a fancy was to say you won't buy it if it doesn't have the specs you want.


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## Timedog (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's what I was thinking, too. I do a lot of landscape photography including night-scapes so I'm all after the higher DR, low-light AF, flip screen and weather-sealed body. So far I've been satisfied with how my 5D4 is sealed, it's been exposed to different conditions to say the least and it works ok so far.
> 
> Single-card slot and AA filter on the R sensor are big downsides though, so I'll likely be waiting for a higher end camera with hopefully greater resolution and hopefully with no AA filter.


Your landscapes are super nice. Is "Pulpit Rock Before Dawn" multiple exposures combined?

I don't think I care that much about single card. I baby my gear including SD cards (I even have cases to put my cards in). I'll probably buy some of the new Sony TOUGH SD cards for doing professional work. I know a lot of photographers leave loose cards hanging around, put one in their wallet, etc. For that type of workflow it's probably a bigger deal. I also buy new cards a lot because I use cards as a 3rd line of defense for archiving for important work. The chance of an SD card failing in a way that's not recoverable when it's not's physically damaged seems extremely small. The biggest problem is with actual physical damage. 



Kit. said:


> I think the numbers for 5D4 are for the dedicated AF sensor, not for DPAF.


This is a very good point.


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## Mikehit (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> The insanely weird "they are in the business of making money, not making cameras with modern specs" argument is just wild. Why on earth, as a consumer, would I be in favor of Canon making a boatload of money, vs. making a more reasonable amount of money and spending a little more of that cash to give me a better product? A camera that gives me the stuff other cameras had 3-5 years ago AS WELL as the cool Canon innovations. They certainly have enough money to do so, that's inarguable. I want the best best camera at the best price. If you are a consumer and you're arguing for Canon's bottom line, you are arguing against yourself in favor of a faceless corporation. That is fanboyism at its worst.
> 
> We'll see if this is just a 5DIV sensor. We'll see about the price. The announcement is soon. But no one should be satisfied if this turns out to be another significantly sub-par offering. "Canon is in the business of making money" is not a good argument against anyone's disappointment.



Yes, I would love it if Canon gave everything Sony has with all the ergonomics and advantages of Canon gear. But to demand it or say that Canon does not do it purely to screw the customer is a fantasy (and that is putting it very politely). If Canon don't make a profit then they can't make cameras I enjoy using. 

So go buy a Sony camera and then get their native lenses and see how it compares to the price of Canon body+lens. Try and get your precious Sony camera serviced - whoops! they don't bother because they will release a new model next year and the one that just broke is old hat. And what a shame Sony cannot incorporate useful touch screen functionality on their camera - Canon does so why can't Sony (even with all their experience of phones and TVs)? Stupid Sony.
And Sony has nasty history of releasing a camera and fixing bugs (that shouldn't have been there in the first place) not by software but by making you buy a whole new camera. 
So why does Sony taken this approach? because they want to churn out as many cameras as possible, get all the headlines with high-tech gizmos and sell more bodies and they don't really give a stuff about the customer's long term planning or long-term reliability. How is that any different from your complaint about Canon?

So my point is one of priorities each company has and how it spends its R&D dollar. Sony is catching up on interface and ergonomics and after-sales service, just as Canon is catching up regards technology. You say that Canon is 5 years behind on technology but Sony is decades behind on customer service and ergonomics - I prefer the latter to the technology. 
Am I a fanboy? Nope - I own Panasonic and Oly gear as well and buy what does the best job for me. But I also have a healthy understanding of how a company operates and a practical realisation that if Canon stops giving me what I need I will change brands. And I would never sit there all miserable if I felt the company was intentionally screwing me - and I can't understand people who do. Life is too short to not enjoy a hobby.


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## symmar22 (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> What you're saying, which makes complete sense to me, seems to refute what Beachcolonist is saying. His/her comment made no sense to me.
> 
> I'd imagine the increase in lowlight focus you've extrapolated here is either due to a better, lower noise, higher DR sensor, or from better processing/algorithms from digic 8/8+. I'm hoping for the former. If we have a D850 level sensor and a flip screen at a decent price(2000-2500) I'll be more than happy to forego IBIS, 120fps, and non-cropped 4k. To me, sensor is king when it comes to taking better photographs, and I'm 90% photographer, 10% videographer.



As much as would love it, I am afraid that hoping to match D850 sensor IQ and DR is a bit over-enthusiastic. The D850 sensor is simply THE best FF sensor on the market for IQ, even very slightly surpassing Sony's own A7RIII sensor. I really doubt Canon has made such progress since the 5D4. Therefore for me, as much as I will keep my Canon gear for work, the Nikon Z6/Z7 makes more sense as a side camera for adapting vintage manual glass.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> We've already had it in this thread, but I'll just repeat the simple extrapolation using the standard scale with 1/3 stop increment (1.0 1.1 1.2 1.4 1.6 1.8 2 2.2 2.5 2.8 3.2 3.5 4)
> 
> -6EV @ f1.2
> -5EV @ f1.8
> ...



Quoting myself here...
That's interesting. From the Canon specs on 5D4, https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-5d-mark-iv/advanced-focusing/,



> (Central AF point) EV-3 at one central AF point focusing at f/2.8, One-Shot AF, 23°C/73°F, ISO 100
> (Live View) EV-4 at 23°C/73°F, ISO 100, One-Shot AF



They specified -3EV @ f2.8 for standard AF and -4EV and no f-number for LiveView which corresponds to the prospective DPAF in the R. I assume it's -4EV @ f2.8, so, compared to the -4EV @ f2.5, 5D4 does 1/3 stops *better* than R.

But 1/3 stop difference is marginal so we can come to a conclusion it's likely going to be the same sensor as in 5D4...


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## BillB (Sep 4, 2018)

David Littleboy said:


> Huh? The only* thing wrong with the M5 Mk1 is the lack of a 16-64 (4x) f/4.0 (constant aperture) IS zoom. Come on, Canon. That'd be an easy way to rip gobs of money out of my, and lots of other folks, pockets.
> 
> All the squawking and wailing here (including mine!), though, is because the EOS-R doesn't push the envelope much. Everyone here is a pro or a camera nerd, and none of us got the particular bell or whistle that s/he wanted. But a 30MP camera with a lighter body and smaller/lighter (and hopefully better) 24-105/4.0 IS will be a really great camera for a lot of people. FF without the pain of the 5D2 +24-70/2.8. "Good show, Canon" is what we should be saying.
> 
> *: I know, I know. Video. I don't do video, but tried it. The battery drained instantly and the camera got almost hot enough to burn my hands. Sheesh. Since I don't do video, I love the M5 Mk1.


Well if an M5 will float your boat, an R might not be the right camera for you, whether or not is pushes the envelope


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> Your landscapes are super nice. Is "Pulpit Rock Before Dawn" multiple exposures combined?



Thank you! Yes most of the night shots are multi-exposure shots, that image is two shots combined taken within maybe 30 minutes interval, 1-2 minutes or so and ISO 100 for the land and a few seconds and ISO 4000 for the milky way.


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> No, the d750 doesn't have every single Canon innovation. That's completely missing my point. Canon could have d750 sensor tech AND DPAF if they chose to.


I don't think so. "Dual pixel" may as well mean that you need twice as much data per frame to process.


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## Timedog (Sep 4, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Yes, I would love it if Canon gave everything Sony has with all the ergonomics and advantages of Canon gear. But to demand it or say that Canon does not do it purely to screw the customer is a fantasy (and that is putting it very politely). If Canon don't make a profit then they can't make cameras I enjoy using.
> 
> So go buy a Sony camera and then get their native lenses and see how it compares to the price of Canon body+lens. Try and get your precious Sony camera serviced - whoops! they don't bother because they will release a new model next year and the one that just broke is old hat. And what a shame Sony cannot incorporate useful touch screen functionality on their camera - Canon does so why can't Sony (even with all their experience of phones and TVs)? Stupid Sony.
> And Sony has nasty history of releasing a camera and fixing bugs (that shouldn't have been there in the first place) not by software but by making you buy a whole new camera.
> ...


It's easy to understand people that do--they a ton of money invested in a system, and the hassle of selling their gear mixed with the negative returns means that switching systems is a HUGE deal that will cost them a lot of money. It's not a trivial decision. By selling your gear and switching you're starting at a disadvantage. So a 2.000 Sony camera might cost someone 4-5-6,000+ once they lose money on selling used gear. Way way more than that if you have the crazy telephoto lenses. Are the competitors gear so good that they're worth THAT much to switch? For some, sure. for others, no. Not yet at least.

Somehow Apple is the market leader in phones and they can provide excellent service while still giving the best technology on the market year after year. I'm an Android user and I can even admit that. The only reason I don't go Apple is because they don't have the best price. If Canon had high prices, but the best technology, that would be one thing. But when they have high prices and technology several generations behind, some people don't like that. I can use a 40 year old lens and take a good picture. I can't take the picture I want when the scene's dynamic range too far exceeds my expensive, half-decade-ago-technology sensor's dynamic range. When other people standing right next to me are able to get the shot, that's a problem.


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## Timedog (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> I don't think so. "Dual pixel" may as well mean that you need twice as much data per frame to process.


Weird how Sony has WAY BETTER than D750 sensor tech while still having dual pixel, when they make way less money than Canon from their cameras. I guess it's impossible for Canon to do for some weird reason though????


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> Weird how Sony has WAY BETTER than D750 sensor tech while still having dual pixel,


Sony has no dual pixel. That's why their autofocus is worse than Canon's.

If by "sensor tech" you mean DR, you can get an equivalent or even better DR from 5D4 (and supposedly R) sensor if you record (twice as large) dual pixel raws.


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## Timedog (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Sony has no dual pixel. That's why their autofocus is worse than Canon's.
> 
> If by "sensor tech" you mean DR, you can get an equivalent or even better DR from 5D4 (and supposedly R) sensor if you record (twice as large) dual pixel raws.


They don't have "DPAF" because that's trademarked by Canon. But they have on sensor phase detect autofocus. Many manufacturers have this. A different version of the same thing. Is it as good? People generally say that Canon's version is a little better, but it's debatable. Canon's version is certainly fantastic. Dual pixel raws aren't the same as raws with a better sensor, due to parallax issues. Not to mention Sony has pixel shift...


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> They don't have "DPAF" because that's trademarked by Canon.


It is patented as well.



Timedog said:


> But they have on sensor phase detect autofocus. Many manufacturers have this. A different version of the same thing.


Not of the same thing. DPAF allows use of any image pixel as a part of the phase detector - but at higher processing and bandwidth costs.



Timedog said:


> Dual pixel raws aren't the same as raws with a better sensor, due to parallax issues.


Canon already sums these dual pixels into a single pixel during RAW creation. It's just that the sum needs 15 bits to keep highlights from clipping, while Canon only gives 14.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> I respect the usability of Canon cameras, and how things "just work". But you don't have to have a camera that's 5 years behind tech-wise to have things just work correctly. Even 1 year is an eternity with modern technology, and they're literally 5 years behind in many areas. There's no excuse if something like their sensor tech can't match the d750 from 4 years ago. They make the most money, they have the biggest potential budget. I hope at least the sensor is better.
> 
> The insanely weird "they are in the business of making money, not making cameras with modern specs" argument is just wild. Why on earth, as a consumer, would I be in favor of Canon making a boatload of money, vs. making a more reasonable amount of money and spending a little more of that cash to give me a better product? A camera that gives me the stuff other cameras had 3-5 years ago AS WELL as the cool Canon innovations. They certainly have enough money to do so, that's inarguable. I want the best best camera at the best price. If you are a consumer and you're arguing for Canon's bottom line, you are arguing against yourself in favor of a faceless corporation. That is fanboyism at its worst.
> 
> We'll see if this is just a 5DIV sensor. We'll see about the price. The announcement is soon. But no one should be satisfied if this turns out to be another significantly sub-par offering. "Canon is in the business of making money" is not a good argument against anyone's disappointment.



Reading such statements I wonder why famous photographers such as Sebastião Salgado still are using Canon gear. Man, do they have any clue about photography? Or (what I think get's closer to the truth) do other things than best DxO scores matter for them? A camera still is more than a sensor, and reliability is something that really counts if you are doing business. If, in future, we will have sensors directly implanted in our eyes, things may change (then the crucial question may be if your own body is good enough for the technology).

My personal experience with gears of different camera makers shot side-by-side simply is: if you really sit in a mess of heavy rain, sand storm, salt water spray etc., Canon gear just doesn't let you down, other gears do. So, my experience is that the part of your money invested in working seals, buttons that don't quit their function when getting a bit wet, really rugged mechanical parts and last but least very good glass, is really something that matters. As long as Canon shines in this category and does not lose completely track in electronics, I will use their system. I also like that their out-of-the box colors mostly are very useable, what again can't be said about every other brand. This is not about fanboyism, it is about realism. Canon is like Toyota and the L lens series like Lexus - not as fancy as a Ferrari but you can expect that you always get safely from A to B. If Canon would give up this quality, I'd not hesitate to say goodbye to them.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Canon already sums these dual pixels into a single pixel during RAW creation. It's just that the sum needs 15 bits to keep highlights from clipping, while Canon only gives 14.


That's why a properly processed dual pixel RAW file delivers more dynamic range than Sony's best sensors are capable of...if that sort of thing is important to you.


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## Mark3794 (Sep 4, 2018)

Same old story: the 6d mk2 and the m50 were called "crippled cameras" and probably the most hated cameras on internet forums. But they sell well and are very good. It's gonna be the same with the eos r


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2018)

Mark3794 said:


> Same old story: the 6d mk2 and the m50 were called "crippled cameras" and probably the most hated cameras on internet forums. But they sell well and are very good. It's gonna be the same with the eos r


On balance, I'm not seeing the EOS R being referred to as crippled. But I'm also not seeing that it offers significant advantages over a DSLR.


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## tron (Sep 4, 2018)

Mark3794 said:


> Same old story: the 6d mk2 and the m50 were called "crippled cameras" and probably the most hated cameras on internet forums. But they sell well and are very good. It's gonna be the same with the eos r


Except when some admit their mistakes (or is it "mistakes" ?)

Tony Northrup: I made a mistake: Canon 6D mk II is the BEST vlogging camera. Seriously.


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## Mark3794 (Sep 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> On balance, I'm not seeing the EOS R being referred to as crippled. But I'm also not seeing that it offers significant advantages over a DSLR.



I bought a m50 to really understand all the hype behind the "mirrorless" world.
The mirrorless have some kind of advantages over a dsrl but a lot of drawbacks too (battery life, you can't use the ovf as spotting scope for wildlife etc). After trying both i still prefer dslr.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> I respect the usability of Canon cameras, and how things "just work". But you don't have to have a camera that's 5 years behind tech-wise to have things just work correctly. Even 1 year is an eternity with modern technology, and they're literally 5 years behind in many areas. There's no excuse if something like their sensor tech can't match the d750 from 4 years ago. They make the most money, they have the biggest potential budget. I hope at least the sensor is better.
> 
> The insanely weird "they are in the business of making money, not making cameras with modern specs" argument is just wild. Why on earth, as a consumer, would I be in favor of Canon making a boatload of money, vs. making a more reasonable amount of money and spending a little more of that cash to give me a better product? A camera that gives me the stuff other cameras had 3-5 years ago AS WELL as the cool Canon innovations. They certainly have enough money to do so, that's inarguable. I want the best best camera at the best price. If you are a consumer and you're arguing for Canon's bottom line, you are arguing against yourself in favor of a faceless corporation. That is fanboyism at its worst.
> 
> We'll see if this is just a 5DIV sensor. We'll see about the price. The announcement is soon. But no one should be satisfied if this turns out to be another significantly sub-par offering. "Canon is in the business of making money" is not a good argument against anyone's disappointment.



The argument isn't - or at least shouldn't be - 'Canon is profitable and that's good for us consumers so don't be disappointed' (although as some point out, if we want them to continue supporting our gear, they need to stay afloat). Rather, it's that a lot of people come onto these forums to bitch about specs and then take it a step further - Canon is ******* if they don't produce exactly what I want! That's when the reality check of sales and profitability comes in. Trying to figure out why Canon chooses to do certain things and not others has to be done in light of what has worked for them in the past. They've been pilloried on forums for years for not being cutting edge enough (however people seek to define that), and they have remained the most successful camera brand.

As for why not be more up to date (if indeed they are not - I don't think it's fair either to say their cameras are 5 years behind, nor that most areas of relevant technology have changed much in five years), well again - if they have remained profitable by not using the latest tech, which is presumably more expensive, then why not continue? If I'm selling cakes for a living, and people buy them whether I use basic flour or fancy flour, why would I cut into my margins unnecessarily?

One last point, they have access to information about their own sales which is not released to the public (such as breakdown by model), and lots of feedback from customers, especially professionals. This is again a reason to think that they provide what they do for a reason - they can get it wrong, but the only measure we have of whether they got it right (from their point of view) is sales. None of this is comfort for someone wanting IBIS, say, but that's not really the point.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> We've already had it in this thread, but I'll just repeat the simple extrapolation using the standard scale with 1/3 stop increment (1.0 1.1 1.2 1.4 1.6 1.8 2 2.2 2.5 2.8 3.2 3.5 4)
> 
> -6EV @ f1.2
> -5EV @ f1.8
> ...



This may be neither here nor there, but there is more to it than light volume. There is also a geometric difference (incident angle of the light rays being sampled), so I’m not sure it’s fair to assume something like “camera x is AF sensitive at -6EV using a f/1.2 lens, therefore it will be AF sensitive at -5EV using an f/1.8 lens.”


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## Aaron D (Sep 4, 2018)

Adelino said:


> Yes impressive, no IBIS though? Is that Canon being stubborn about lens IS as the best?



The more I think about IBIS the more I'm opposed to it. Seems to me like the sensor should be bolted down—let the lenses correct for shake, and let that shake correction be engineered for the lens at hand. IBIS is a one-size-fits-all solution for lenses from 9mm to 100's of mm. And it's another high-tech thing to go wrong. There are so many complex systems built into modern cameras, why keep adding more. I just sent my main camera body to CPS for repair—and it has no IBIS. Just shut down, dead as a doornail. Yes this is the first time such a thing has happened in my experience, and yes I have a backup. But when you add IBIS you add risk of failure and the very core of you system.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> Canon could have d750 sensor tech AND DPAF if they chose to.



Canon isn’t the only player there. To have d750 sensor tech AND DPAF, both Canon and Sony would have to come to a technology sharing or licensing agreement.


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## scyrene (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> I can't take the picture I want when the scene's dynamic range too far exceeds my expensive, half-decade-ago-technology sensor's dynamic range. When other people standing right next to me are able to get the shot, that's a problem.



Here's something else some of us object to. The difference in DR between the best sensors of Nikon, Sony, and Canon is tiny now - at most around a stop at base ISO. The number of situations where just one extra stop means you can get a shot you couldn't otherwise get is small. These exaggerations - that Canon's tech is ancient and can't do the job, whereas the competition is so much better - are another reason some of the naysayers get short shrift on the forum. Canon cameras produce excellent results in most situaitons, as do all modern cameras, whatever the brand. Pretending there's some yawning chasm between them, and by inference that those people preferring Canon (as some here argue) are sheep, or undiscerning, or just ignorant, is simply rubbish.


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## Mikehit (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> It's easy to understand people that do--they a ton of money invested in a system, and the hassle of selling their gear mixed with the negative returns means that switching systems is a HUGE deal that will cost them a lot of money. It's not a trivial decision. By selling your gear and switching you're starting at a disadvantage. So a 2.000 Sony camera might cost someone 4-5-6,000+ once they lose money on selling used gear. Way way more than that if you have the crazy telephoto lenses. Are the competitors gear so good that they're worth THAT much to switch? For some, sure. for others, no. Not yet at least.



If you are a pro, and you believe the change in gear will pay for all that, then it is worth it. If it is not worth it, the question comes 'how important are those features'? It is a cost-benefit to the photographer: what I find amusing is when someone finds it so important that they talk about being 'betrayed' or 'Canon abusing the customer' and still stay with Canon. Why use gear that you find to upsetting?

And whether a pro or amateur, Even as a non-pro, ith a Sony-EF adapter you can soften the blow considerably



Timedog said:


> Somehow Apple is the market leader in phones and they can provide excellent service while still giving the best technology on the market year after year. I'm an Android user and I can even admit that. The only reason I don't go Apple is because they don't have the best price. If Canon had high prices, but the best technology, that would be one thing.


Personally I need a lens to be able to take so look at the price of Canon body/lens vs Sony body/lens - there is not much difference.



Timedog said:


> But when they have high prices and technology several generations behind, some people don't like that. I can use a 40 year old lens and take a good picture. I can't take the picture I want when the scene's dynamic range too far exceeds my expensive, half-decade-ago-technology sensor's dynamic range. When other people standing right next to me are able to get the shot, that's a problem.


There are very few cases where the one stop difference in DR will make that much of a difference - at ISO 800 and above the difference is zero.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> They don't have "DPAF" because that's trademarked by Canon. But they have on sensor phase detect autofocus. Many manufacturers have this. A different version of the same thing.



CMOS and CCD sensors both convert light to charge in order to facilitate imaging. Film likewise turns light into some semi-permanent medium. Are they all different versions of the same thing?

They serve the same function, but they are not the same thing.

Sony has fabricated dual pixel architecture for Samsung smartphones, but they have never used it in their own devices or sold a sensor with it on the open market. It’s therefore safe to assume that they don’t have IP for it and were merely a contract manufacturer to Samsung (who may have licensed it from Canon, but that is pure speculation).


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## fentiger (Sep 4, 2018)

Just about every camera sold has a inbuilt image stabilising system, 
if you turn your camera over and look on the base plate you will see a threaded socket.
be amazed all you IBIS moaners, its been there all the time.


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## degos (Sep 4, 2018)

ethermine said:


> I suppose I was taught to first focus on what I actually need, and then figure out what equipment would allow me to attain the result based on those needs.



And if you don't find such a piece of equipment do you just sit quietly with your hands folded? If so then I commend your discipline.

Most of us, however, like to let Canon 'know' that we're dissatisifed by venting on various fora.

So an interesting exercise would be to start with the EOS R camera and work-back to understand what 'needs' it fulfils. Someone who 'needs' a smaller body but huge lenses and a crippled FPS rate?


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## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> I respect the usability of Canon cameras, and how things "just work". But you don't have to have a camera that's 5 years behind tech-wise to have things just work correctly. Even 1 year is an eternity with modern technology, and they're literally 5 years behind in many areas. There's no excuse if something like their sensor tech can't match the d750 from 4 years ago. They make the most money, they have the biggest potential budget. I hope at least the sensor is better.
> 
> The insanely weird "they are in the business of making money, not making cameras with modern specs" argument is just wild. Why on earth, as a consumer, would I be in favor of Canon making a boatload of money, vs. making a more reasonable amount of money and spending a little more of that cash to give me a better product? A camera that gives me the stuff other cameras had 3-5 years ago AS WELL as the cool Canon innovations. They certainly have enough money to do so, that's inarguable. I want the best best camera at the best price. If you are a consumer and you're arguing for Canon's bottom line, you are arguing against yourself in favor of a faceless corporation. That is fanboyism at its worst.
> 
> We'll see if this is just a 5DIV sensor. We'll see about the price. The announcement is soon. But no one should be satisfied if this turns out to be another significantly sub-par offering. "Canon is in the business of making money" is not a good argument against anyone's disappointment.



agreed - and very eloquently put too


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## Scott Smith Photo (Sep 4, 2018)

I've read though most of this page and finally signed up to comments so Hi (waves).

I was looking forward to something special from Canon that would maybe put them a nose in front of Sony but as much as I want feel the love for Canon I can't help but think they actually don't have the tech to compete at the moment and that's the real shame. 

I know it's unlikely at this stage but please let it be that this is the lower of 2 that they are announcing at the same time like Nikon? And they're keeping the other under wraps till the official announcement?

How much of the things in the EOS R can be added/tweaked with firmware? Fuji have done wonders adding things this way.

I (as in me personally) wanted something to lust after that would also be a great 2nd body for travel, gigs, and weddings alongside my 5DIII, now I'm deflated and wondering if I should get a 5DIV and watch what happens or if it's worth taking a more serious look at Sony and Fuji.

Interesting times even if they're not as exciting as there were last week when I was preparing to sell a kidney.


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## Terry Danks (Sep 4, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> The more I think about IBIS the more I'm opposed to it. Seems to me like the sensor should be bolted down—let the lenses correct for shake, and let that shake correction be engineered for the lens at hand. IBIS is a one-size-fits-all solution for lenses from 9mm to 100's of mm. And it's another high-tech thing to go wrong. There are so many complex systems built into modern cameras, why keep adding more. I just sent my main camera body to CPS for repair—and it has no IBIS. Just shut down, dead as a doornail. Yes this is the first time such a thing has happened in my experience, and yes I have a backup. But when you add IBIS you add risk of failure and the very core of you system.



Same thing was said about IS lenses when Canon first introduced them! 

"Wobbly bits in lenses?" Terrible idea!," said the Nikon and Leica enthusiasts. 
Time will tell if IBIS is a particular Achilles' heel reliability-wise. As one who actually left Nikon over the IS issue when they lagged introducing VR, I find IBIS a logical and highly desirable feature. Love my 300/2.8L IS and my 600/4L IS but my 180mm, 16-35mm, and 135mm would sure be more useable hand-held with IBIS!


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## lb (Sep 4, 2018)

mppix said:


> The af implementation is crazy...
> But how do you select all those points without joystick?
> No af-linked spot meterin? .. typical canon
> 
> ...


The Canon wheel has gone from the back, now looks like a Nikon copy except no Joystick as you said, and an old fashioned SD card slot instead of a sturdy xqd card slot, very disappointed with Canon, keeping my hard earned cash, no value added features from the 5D series.?????


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## BeenThere (Sep 4, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> The more I think about IBIS the more I'm opposed to it. Seems to me like the sensor should be bolted down—let the lenses correct for shake, and let that shake correction be engineered for the lens at hand. IBIS is a one-size-fits-all solution for lenses from 9mm to 100's of mm. And it's another high-tech thing to go wrong. There are so many complex systems built into modern cameras, why keep adding more. I just sent my main camera body to CPS for repair—and it has no IBIS. Just shut down, dead as a doornail. Yes this is the first time such a thing has happened in my experience, and yes I have a backup. But when you add IBIS you add risk of failure and the very core of you system.


True enough that the more complex a system is, the more that can go wrong, however, it’s hard to argue that IBIS is not beneficial to images shot at relatively slow shudder speeds using lenses that do not have IS built-in.


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## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> On balance, I'm not seeing the EOS R being referred to as crippled. But I'm also not seeing that it offers significant advantages over a DSLR.




Largely agree, beyond the basic sell of what an EVF/mirrorless held up to your eye offers.

Waiting for how the how the lenses perform with this new mount. Conceivably, (a) these lenses are optimized for DPAF and might be super quick to focus, and (b) that control ring at the front of each lens could offer some interesting uses.

Also, the new controls could be interesting -- it appears to be wildly customizable and that sensor based slider will hopefully be explained to us. Additionally, Folks have been asking for backlit buttons forever, and we may get them here.

- A


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

Timedog said:


> hat's completely missing my point. Canon could have d750 sensor tech AND DP





neuroanatomist said:


> On balance, I'm not seeing the EOS R being referred to as crippled. But I'm also not seeing that it offers significant advantages over a DSLR.



I have seen the word crippled being used to describe the EOS R many times in this thread.


Kit. said:


> "f/2" means "the aperture is half the focal length".
> 
> If everything important in front of the camera is the same (light, distance to different objects in the scene) and the same object is in focus, it's the absolute size (and shape) of the entrance pupil that determines DoF and bokeh effects of the resulting picture. The rays of light that come from the points on the scene toward your sensor do not know the focal length of your lens; all they "know" is that once they pass the entrance pupil, they are in and are forming the image.
> 
> If, in addition, the angle of view is the same, it's the absolute size (and shape) of the entrance pupil that determines the intensity of the light hitting the sensor (if there is no light loss between the entrance pupil and the sensor).



CanonFanBoy is correct. Although a f/2 lens is an f/2 lens, a M43 sensor is smaller than a FF sensor and hence M43 f/2 lens is slower than a FF f/2 lens. You have to apply the multiplication factor to get the 35mm equivalent.


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## unfocused (Sep 4, 2018)

tpatana said:


> Well surely they can cut down the price by $500 if they leave the mirror box and pentaprism out. I'm sure those add about $500 for the price.
> 
> So $2990 it is.



And you are sure of this because...


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## Aaron D (Sep 4, 2018)

lb said:


> The Canon wheel has gone from the back, now looks like a Nikon copy except no Joystick as you said, and an old fashioned SD card slot instead of a sturdy xqd card slot, very disappointed with Canon, keeping my hard earned cash, no value added features from the 5D series.?????



Yeah, I hear you. But still, wobbly lenses are in the path of light and not at the plane of the focused image. Just seems more trouble prone. I'd rather we get all lenses up to speed than throw a blanket solution into the body.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> CanonFanBoy is correct. Although a f/2 lens is an f/2 lens, a M43 sensor is smaller than a FF sensor and hence M43 f/2 lens is slower than a FF f/2 lens. You have to apply the multiplication factor to get the 35mm equivalent.


Egad, do we really have to go there again? The ‘crop factor’ does not apply to exposure, per se. An f/2 lens on FF, APS-C, m4/3, or an iPhone will have the same exposure settings (shutter speed + aperture + ISO) for a given scene. The smaller the sensor, the more apparent the noise. But the exposure won’t change. The DoF will change, of course, but mainly because if you put the lens in front of a smaller sensor, you need to change the distance to match the framing, farther away with a smaller sensor means a deeper DoF. If you maintain the subject distance and focal length, a given f/number will actually have a shallower DoF on a smaller sensor, because of the difference in circle of confusion. Speaking of circle of confusion, you need to get yourself out of it.


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## unfocused (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> ...Although a f/2 lens is an f/2 lens, a M43 sensor is smaller than a FF sensor and hence M43 f/2 lens is slower than a FF f/2 lens...



Wrong.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> Yeah, I hear you. But still, wobbly lenses are in the path of light and not at the plane of the focused image. Just seems more trouble prone. I'd rather we get all lenses up to speed than throw a blanket solution into the body.


Easy peasy, just put a sensor in each lens and just connect it to the body for digitization and processing.


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## tron (Sep 4, 2018)

I believe that 5DMkIV may still have the advantage against R. I do like my 5DMkIV a lot and I do not feell the need to get an R. However we must admit that alhough not revolutionary the R gives access to two new interesting lenses (the 28-70 and the 50).


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2018)

I may get an R. But it will more likely be a 5DsR than an EOS R.


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## Aaron D (Sep 4, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> True enough that the more complex a system is, the more that can go wrong, however, it’s hard to argue that IBIS is not beneficial to images shot at relatively slow shudder speeds using lenses that do not have IS built-in.



Agreed, but I'd rather all lenses (that need it) were brought up to speed with IS. In my case, my normal zoom, long zoom and 35 fixed are all IS and only my TSE lenses are not. So, I'd be paying for IBIS and living with the added complexity for NO good reason.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> This may be neither here nor there, but there is more to it than light volume. There is also a geometric difference (incident angle of the light rays being sampled), so I’m not sure it’s fair to assume something like “camera x is AF sensitive at -6EV using a f/1.2 lens, therefore it will be AF sensitive at -5EV using an f/1.8 lens.”



It's a reasonable assumption as when you stop the aperture down it decreases the amount of light and it's the main factor here. That is, at f1.8 the lens needs to receive 2 times more light in order for the sensor to receive the same amount of light as with f1.2.


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## amorse (Sep 4, 2018)

This group seems pretty heated up over the features (or lack there of) on this camera. It hasn't even been announced yet: I'm sure we will learn more tomorrow.

I'm going to hold judgement until I hear Canon announce it in full.


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## ecpu (Sep 4, 2018)

I'm waiting on the full release before making my final decision. It's going to be the EOS R or Sony A7III. If the current specs are complete and accurate, it will be A7III because EOS R doesn't offer what I'm looking for on the video side. Either way, I'm excited to be close to getting a nice upgrade from my 6DII !


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## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

tron said:


> I believe that 5DMkIV may still have the advantage against R. I do like my 5DMkIV a lot and I do not feell the need to get an R. However we must admit that alhough not revolutionary the R gives access to two new interesting lenses (the 28-70 and the 50).




The 5D4 will be able to do more that you already do today. But until the EOS R is launched, we don't know about the new that this camera offers.

- A


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## tron (Sep 4, 2018)

ecpu said:


> I'm waiting on the full release before making my final decision. It's going to be the EOS R or Sony A7III. If the current specs are complete and accurate, it will be A7III because EOS R doesn't offer what I'm looking for on the video side. Either way, I'm excited to be close to getting a nice upgrade from my 6DII !


You could already have a nice upgrade from your 6DII by getting a 5DMkIV 

Edit: I just saw that you referred to video so that remains to be seen indeed. Apologies from a stills hobbist!


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

fentiger said:


> Just about every camera sold has a inbuilt image stabilising system,
> if you turn your camera over and look on the base plate you will see a threaded socket.
> be amazed all you IBIS moaners, its been there all the time.


There is also a hot shoe on top of the camera. But...

Too bad there are places where meaningful use of any of them is not allowed.


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## ecpu (Sep 4, 2018)

tron said:


> You could alreafy have a nice upgrade from your 6DII by getting a 5DMkIV


Unfortunately that is only true for the photo side of things. 5DMkIV isn't so great on the video side either, because Canon crippled it with a poor codec and massive crop. Had that not been the case, I wouldn't even be looking at EOS R or Sony A7III because I'd already have a 5DMkIV.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> It's a reasonable assumption as when you stop the aperture down it decreases the amount of light and it's the main factor here. That is, at f1.8 the lens needs to receive 2 times more light in order for the sensor to receive the same amount of light as with f1.2.


I don’t disagree with your arithmetic. However that may not be the whole story. Perhaps the pixel architecture is “better” at reading phase difference from wider angles, in addition to with more light. Granted, DPAF is architecturally different and since the pixels are used for imaging perhaps the micro lenses alleviate orientation. 

All I’m getting at is: I would not assume it is entirely a function of the volume of light.


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## tron (Sep 4, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Unfortunately that is only true for the photo side of things. 5DMkIV isn't so great on the video side either, because Canon crippled it with a poor codec and massive crop. Had that not been the case, I wouldn't even be looking at EOS R or Sony A7III because I'd already have a 5DMkIV.


I have seen that you referred to video and had already edited my post but you replied faster than my edit!


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## jayphotoworks (Sep 4, 2018)

On a side note, for video work, here are some of my personal opinions/anecdotes and what the EOS R means to me right now: 

I use 1080p120 quite a bit for creative shots and IBIS is also quite useful for certain camera movements on a monopod, sandbag, etc. especially in run and gun situations. I would like to think dual slots are almost standard equipment these days on bodies $2000+, but perhaps YMMV when it comes to your own risk assessment or needs. I personally shoot dual card video on my Sony bodies as I don't always have the chance for a re-shoot, but then again not every camera system with dual slots can also dual record video. I also don't see any specs on the HDMI output either, although these days I'm mainly using my hybrid kit for work that doesn't require 10bit 4:2:2, so I'm no longer externally recording. Internally, Sony's 8bit 4:2:0 internal record gives me around 2.5 hours of 4K recording time on a 128GB card which is similar to IPB 4K on the EOS R. Canon's ALL-I would be a step up in quality and a little easier in the editing suite, but I wouldn't want to swap 128GB cards ~30mins or so (in tandem on my Sony if it had that option). I also find that LOG gamma on the Sony falls apart quickly outside of basic color correction work, so the omission of LOG on the EOS R isn't really a deal breaker either. On a hybrid system, I prefer a compromise that favors fast workflow with some latitude for basic color correction over a high quality space intensive codec. I prefer to use my cinema equipment for anything that exceeds those requirements.

The rest I could live with, but not enough at this point for me to consider adding this to my kit even though I currently have both GM and EF L lenses. Nonetheless, I do like the startup time of 0.9sec on the EOS R. It does seem like an eternity to fire up my Sony A7R3/A73/A9. I also like the top display and like always DPAF is phenomenally better than just about everyone else in the market when it comes to video AF. I was spoiled by the focus guide on the C200. 

I really had hoped for a true "sexy solution" for mounting EF lenses, but if the adapter route with a control ring is considered sexy, I would hate to have Canon set me up on a blind date with someone "just average.." I'm also curious how this new RF lens ecosystem will impact future EOS C bodies that have EF mounts. 

Perhaps there will be a EOS R body catered to pros in 2019 at which point I can re-evaluate my Sony system.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

fentiger said:


> Just about every camera sold has a inbuilt image stabilising system,
> if you turn your camera over and look on the base plate you will see a threaded socket.
> be amazed all you IBIS moaners, its been there all the time.



I'd love to see you trying to get my sulky teenage kids to pose for a photo ...


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Fixed ISO 400 in bulb mode? what does that mean? that kills the camera for long exposure/landscape photography. Very strange limitation. Absolutely a no-go for me.


Just noticed this – that applies if ISO is set to Auto; same behavior with a flash mounted. As long as you’re selecting an ISO yourself instead of letting the camera do so, you can set whatever ISO you want for bulb mode.


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## ecpu (Sep 4, 2018)

jayphotoworks said:


> On a side note, for video work, here are some of my personal opinions/anecdotes and what the EOS R means to me right now:
> 
> I use 1080p120 quite a bit for creative shots and IBIS is also quite useful for certain camera movements on a monopod, sandbag, etc. especially in run and gun situations. I would like to think dual slots are almost standard equipment these days on bodies $2000+, but perhaps YMMV when it comes to your own risk assessment or needs. I personally shoot dual card video on my Sony bodies as I don't always have the chance for a re-shoot, but then again not every camera system with dual slots can also dual record video. I also don't see any specs on the HDMI output either, although these days I'm mainly using my hybrid kit for work that doesn't require 10bit 4:2:2, so I'm no longer externally recording. Internally, Sony's 8bit 4:2:0 internal record gives me around 2.5 hours of 4K recording time on a 128GB card which is similar to IPB 4K on the EOS R. Canon's ALL-I would be a step up in quality and a little easier in the editing suite, but I wouldn't want to swap 128GB cards ~30mins or so (in tandem on my Sony if it had that option). I also find that LOG gamma on the Sony falls apart quickly outside of basic color correction work, so the omission of LOG on the EOS R isn't really a deal breaker either. On a hybrid system, I prefer a compromise that favors fast workflow with some latitude for basic color correction over a high quality space intensive codec. I prefer to use my cinema equipment for anything that exceeds those requirements.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this... lots of good information here from someone with experience.

My photo/video needs have shifted over the last year and I find myself doing more video work now... my current workload is probably 70/30 video/photo. I'm in need of a better video system and would much prefer a single camera that does both photo and video well as opposed to separate photo and video cameras. For that reason, the Sony A7III might come out on top for me, depending on whether or not this EOS R has anything else to offer that hasn't been shown yet.


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## Basil (Sep 4, 2018)

Right off the bat I'm disappointed there are not dual card slots (CF/SD and actually with 4k video I'd like to see CF Fast. Otherwise, it has some impressive specs. I would wait a while to see what real-world reviews say regarding things like dynamic range (a BIG one for me), AF performance, etc. I'd like to see head-to-head comparison with Canon 5D Mark IV (which is currently on my wish list - could this replace it? )


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I don’t disagree with your arithmetic. However that may not be the whole story. Perhaps the pixel architecture is “better” at reading phase difference from wider angles, in addition to with more light. Granted, DPAF is architecturally different and since the pixels are used for imaging perhaps the micro lenses alleviate orientation.
> 
> All I’m getting at is: I would not assume it is entirely a function of the volume of light.



Maybe. But in the specs they only give us EVs and aperture, so as above, I think I made a reasonable assumption.

Anyway, based on what I estimated here, my guess is, the R will have roughly the same sensor as 5D4 in terms of DR and low light capabilities.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> The more I think about IBIS the more I'm opposed to it. Seems to me like the sensor should be bolted down—let the lenses correct for shake, and let that shake correction be engineered for the lens at hand. IBIS is a one-size-fits-all solution for lenses from 9mm to 100's of mm. And it's another high-tech thing to go wrong. There are so many complex systems built into modern cameras, why keep adding more. I just sent my main camera body to CPS for repair—and it has no IBIS. Just shut down, dead as a doornail. Yes this is the first time such a thing has happened in my experience, and yes I have a backup. But when you add IBIS you add risk of failure and the very core of you system.



same argument could be applied to power steering, electric windows, and a whole host of features which differentiate your car from a 1960s family saloon ...


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> same argument could be applied to power steering, electric windows, and a whole host of features which differentiate your car from a 1960s family saloon ...


So you’re saying that I can’t get the EOS R with simulated wood grain paneling?


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## Cthulhu (Sep 4, 2018)

Predictably disappointing. A crippled 5dmk4 sans mirror. Not much more than a placeholder. 
The only redeeming quality would be if EF lenses actually work well, otherwise it's a noticeably inferior product to not only it's own dslr line but to the competing mirror less products as well.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Sep 4, 2018)

I'm so deeply disappointed by the lack of IBIS. IBIS opens up so many possibilities for taking night time landscapes without having to haul around a cumbersome tripod. With Sony having it, and Nikon jumping on the bandwagon, I thought for sure Canon would get with it. But no.

It's so frustrating the way they make cameras that are solid, reliable, great to use, which keeps me sticking with them, but consistently lack the features and technological advancement of the competitors. It's like we're always forced to choose between having a robust, easy to use camera, and one with the latest features.

I was all ready to put my A7III up for sale, excited to have a Camera that works like a Canon with the features of a Sony. But no, it looks like it's barely more than a 5D4 without a mirror.

What is the deal? Do they just not think IBIS would be reliable? Are they that stubborn that they're sticking to their guns and claiming lens image stability is better even as everyone else goes to IBIS?

I guess it's nice I can still use all my 5D4 batteries.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> So you’re saying that I can’t get the EOS R with simulated wood grain paneling?


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I'm so deeply disappointed by the lack of IBIS. IBIS opens up so many possibilities for taking night time landscapes without having to haul around a cumbersome tripod.


Night time landscapes without a tripod? That you either shoot at a crazy ISO or you want IBIS to compensate a few seconds (or even minutes) of shaking.


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## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

Cthulhu said:


> Predictably disappointing. A crippled 5dmk4 sans mirror. Not much more than a placeholder.
> The only redeeming quality would be if EF lenses actually work well, otherwise it's a noticeably inferior product to not only it's own dslr line but to the competing mirror less products as well.




You call it a crippled 5D4 sans mirror. Others might call it a 5D4 with completely silent shooting, a tilty-flippy, the ability to use manual focus glass through the viewfinder at a rumored price of $2k.

For the umpteenth time, we know EF lenses will work well. See how mirrorless with DPAF + adaptor does (this is just one example -- this forum is full of folks who have happily adapted their EF glass on to EOS M):






- A


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## ecpu (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I'm so deeply disappointed by the lack of IBIS. IBIS opens up so many possibilities for taking night time landscapes without having to haul around a cumbersome tripod. With Sony having it, and Nikon jumping on the bandwagon, I thought for sure Canon would get with it. But no.
> 
> It's so frustrating the way they make cameras that are solid, reliable, great to use, which keeps me sticking with them, but consistently lack the features and technological advancement of the competitors. It's like we're always forced to choose between having a robust, easy to use camera, and one with the latest features.
> 
> ...


I too feel very frustrated by the lack of latest features. Was hoping for 1080p 120fps and IBIS. While these features seem HIGHLY unlikely at this point, I'm still not going to draw any final conclusions about this new system or make any buying decisions until the official announcement. 

As far as I'm concerned, nothing is truly known for sure until Canon provides the details themselves.


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## CanonGrunt (Sep 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> So you’re saying that I can’t get the EOS R with simulated wood grain paneling?




No, but I'm sure you can count on an aftermarket custom upgrade kit...


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## sebakunstpaul (Sep 4, 2018)

I didn't see anywhere neither IBIS or focus peaking if i am right ...
If these are the final stats ... well sad. : /


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## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Night time landscapes without a tripod? That you either shoot at a crazy ISO or you want IBIS to compensate a few seconds (or even minutes) of shaking.




Not all nighttime landscapes are astro. Cityscapes come to mind as well. I remember Chris Gampat at Phoblographer rave about shooting an Olympus and with an UWA lens held the shutter open for something absurd -- _up to 15 seconds_ -- and net sharp shots with the IBIS of that system. That's bonkers.

I find absurd 5+ second hand held shots a bit of a parlour trick. But lets admit _that it's a neat parlour trick_, and I'm stuck in dark cave-like interiors or nighttime city walkabouts sans flash all the time. I have lens IS on all four of my wider lenses I might use in those siutations (16-35 f/4L IS, 24-70 f/4L IS, 28 f/2.8 IS, 35 f/2 IS), but if IBIS + Lens IS can add to greater effect (esp. on wider FLs), color me interested with IBIS.

- A


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## sebakunstpaul (Sep 4, 2018)

mb66energy said:


> I think there is another reason for mirrorless: More variability for lens element placement due to the lacking mirror region. Maybe this is the only reason for the existence of a large f/2 28-70 which were ultra large if you had to do strong retrofocus for a SLR. Both targeting the same IQ level to be comparable.
> 
> And I am with you in your last line: I enjoy my M50 just with the 70-200 f/4 but if I want just a small camera with a medium bright lens I use the EF-M 22 which makes it a good current version of these 35mm compact cameras with ... 35mm lenses!


Yes, Samyang for example make that small autofocus 35mm for Sony, quite nice lens as i understood.


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## sdz (Sep 4, 2018)

Terry Danks said:


> Same thing was said about IS lenses when Canon first introduced them!
> 
> "Wobbly bits in lenses?" Terrible idea!," said the Nikon and Leica enthusiasts.
> Time will tell if IBIS is a particular Achilles' heel reliability-wise. As one who actually left Nikon over the IS issue when they lagged introducing VR, I find IBIS a logical and highly desirable feature. Love my 300/2.8L IS and my 600/4L IS but my 180mm, 16-35mm, and 135mm would sure be more useable hand-held with IBIS!



I would not care about the EOS R but for IBIS. My hands are not as steady as they were years back.


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## ecpu (Sep 4, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Not all nighttime landscapes are astro. Cityscapes come to mind as well. I remember Chris Gampat at Phoblographer rave about shooting an Olympus and with an UWA lens held the shutter open for something absurd -- _up to 15 seconds_ -- and net sharp shots with the IBIS of that system. That's bonkers.
> 
> I find absurd 5+ second hand held shots a bit of a parlour trick. But lets admit _that it's a neat parlour trick_, and I'm stuck in dark cave-like interiors or nighttime city walkabouts sans flash all the time. I have lens IS on all four of my wider lenses I might use in those siutations (16-35 f/4L IS, 24-70 f/4L IS, 28 f/2.8 IS, 35 f/2 IS), but if IBIS + Lens IS can add to greater effect (esp. on wider FLs), color me interested with IBIS.
> 
> - A


There are some really good comparisons out there of Canon lens IS vs Sony IBIS... the results seem to indicate that both systems are pretty much equal.

Having said that, the reason I'm not happy with the lack of IBIS on EOS R is that Canon doesn't put IS in all of its lenses. Those new fast primes and the F2 Zoom sound great... but they dont have IS... had this new camera been equipped with IBIS, problem solved.


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Wrong.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Maybe. But in the specs they only give us EVs and aperture, so as above, I think I made a reasonable assumption.



But in giving aperture, they’ve also given geometry.

Off sensor PDAF has sensors which require a given aperture, and it has to do with geometry. Again, this may be an entirely different situation (microlenses); I have never seen sufficient info on DPAF to know, or even assume that it’s only about quantity of light.


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## reef58 (Sep 4, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> same argument could be applied to power steering, electric windows, and a whole host of features which differentiate your car from a 1960s family saloon ...



In most cases if your power windows or heated seats quit working you can still drive your car. You can also find a repair shop right down the road. If your IBIS quits working well your camera is not going to produce. That being said I guess the same could be said for IS Lens stabilization also.


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## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> "f/2" means "the aperture is half the focal length".
> 
> If everything important in front of the camera is the same (light, distance to different objects in the scene) and the same object is in focus, it's the absolute size (and shape) of the entrance pupil that determines DoF and bokeh effects of the resulting picture. The rays of light that come from the points on the scene toward your sensor do not know the focal length of your lens; all they "know" is that once they pass the entrance pupil, they are in and are forming the image.
> 
> If, in addition, the angle of view is the same, it's the absolute size (and shape) of the entrance pupil that determines the intensity of the light hitting the sensor (if there is no light loss between the entrance pupil and the sensor).



You said the M43 lenses were 2 stops slower than FF. In other words, that an M43 lenses would need a faster shutter speed than an f/2 lens on FF with the same light, "for every practical purpose". Do you mean when using flash and getting the same framing? Or is that also true with natural light? That is what I want you to explain to me.

5D Mark III / Circle of confusion = 0.03
Distance to subject: 15'
50mm f/2 lens
DOF = 3.34'

Olympus E-M5 / Circle of confusion = 0.015 / Crop factor = 2
Distance to subject: 15' / 30'
50mm f/2 lens
DOF = 1.66' / 6.67'

Now, if I have to stand twice as far back to get the same framing, yes DOF is much deeper than a FF at half the distance. But, does that make the lens slower? I happen to think the shutter speed would be the same. The light gathering ability between the two lenses would be the same, wouldn't it? If they are both f/2? Is an f/2 lens on M4/3 really two stops slower than an f/2 lens on a FF camera?

Olympus E-M5 / Circle of confusion = 0.015 / Crop factor = 2
Distance to subject: 15' / 30"
50mm f/2 lens [email protected]/2 / @f/4
DOF = 3.34' / 13.84'

So I guess my question is one of shutter speed? Do you mean that shutter speed on an M43 Camera with an f/2 lens would need to be twice the shutter speed of a FF Camera with an f/2 lens to get the same exposure? I guess that must be my question. And I am seriously asking, not trying to be a smart ass. I honestly don't know what you mean by M43 being 2 stops slower than FF at the same f stop, shutter speed, etc.

From my calculations (Actually a DOF Calculator app) it looks as though DOF is half the depth on M43 for same exposure and distance and f/stop.

So, can you help me understand what you mean by two stops slower? I do have a FF and an M43 camera so I guess I could just go outside and match the focal lengths, shutter speeds, f/stop, etc and see. But I don't have a prime M43 so matching things up won't be exact.

Or is DOF the issue and not shutter speed?


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Sep 4, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Night time landscapes without a tripod? That you either shoot at a crazy ISO or you want IBIS to compensate a few seconds (or even minutes) of shaking.


As was said elsehwere, yes, I'm talking more about cityscapes at night, not something like full-on astrophotography when, yes, obviously you need a tripod. In a city at night, there's normally enough light that IBIS would let you get a good shot at low ISO to preserve the shadows. Without it, the ISO frequently needs to be pushed up too high. IBIS makes the difference in this case. Not to mention, I don't want to carry a tripod around in the city at night... Too much unwanted attention.


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Egad, do we really have to go there again? The ‘crop factor’ does not apply to exposure, per se. An f/2 lens on FF, APS-C, m4/3, or an iPhone will have the same exposure settings (shutter speed + aperture + ISO) for a given scene. The smaller the sensor, the more apparent the noise. But the exposure won’t change. The DoF will change, of course, but mainly because if you put the lens in front of a smaller sensor, you need to change the distance to match the framing, farther away with a smaller sensor means a deeper DoF. If you maintain the subject distance and focal length, a given f/number will actually have a shallower DoF on a smaller sensor, because of the difference in circle of confusion. Speaking of circle of confusion, you need to get yourself out of it.



I am correct. 

CanonFanBoy is correct. Although a f/2 lens is an f/2 lens, a M43 sensor is smaller than a FF sensor and hence M43 f/2 lens* is slower* than a FF f/2 lens. You have to apply the multiplication factor to get the 35mm equivalent.

A slower lens is a lens that lets in less light! A M43 lens with the f-stop as a FF lets in less light than the FF lens.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> I am correct.
> 
> CanonFanBoy is correct. Although a f/2 lens is an f/2 lens, a M43 sensor is smaller than a FF sensor and hence M43 f/2 lens* is slower* than a FF f/2 lens. You have to apply the multiplication factor to get the 35mm equivalent.
> 
> A slower lens is a lens that lets in less light! A M43 lens with the f-stop as a FF lets in less light than the FF lens.




A 500mm^2 hole is a 500mm^2 hole no matter what you strap it to.

Disregarding unquantifiable losses (difference between f and t stops), if you sample a scene with equivalent framing, aperture, and exposure time using a m43 and full frame, the same amount of light will pass through. But if you view the resulting images at the same size, the one you magnify less will look better.


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## BeenThere (Sep 4, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> Agreed, but I'd rather all lenses (that need it) were brought up to speed with IS. In my case, my normal zoom, long zoom and 35 fixed are all IS and only my TSE lenses are not. So, I'd be paying for IBIS and living with the added complexity for NO good reason.


Yes, in your perfect world.


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## Aaron D (Sep 4, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> same argument could be applied to power steering, electric windows, and a whole host of features which differentiate your car from a 1960s family saloon ...


I've said it elsewhere, so apologies for repeating myself…. I don't have any lenses that don't already have IS built-in—why pay for and have to drag around the extra complexity? IBIS is absolutely useless to everybody who owns IS lenses. Yeah there are some lenses that don't have IS yet—fix THEM!


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## Aaron D (Sep 4, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> Yes, in your perfect world.



Huh?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> I am correct.
> 
> CanonFanBoy is correct. Although a f/2 lens is an f/2 lens, a M43 sensor is smaller than a FF sensor and hence M43 f/2 lens* is slower* than a FF f/2 lens. You have to apply the multiplication factor to get the 35mm equivalent.
> 
> A slower lens is a lens that lets in less light! A M43 lens with the f-stop as a FF lets in less light than the FF lens.


You can repeat yourself as often as you like, but it won’t make you correct. However, it seems there’s no point me in trying to explain it to you again.


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## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

After reading 4 gazillion pages of this thread, this document I posted some time ago is turning from giggleworthy to 'shucks, some of this is actually on target' to _sheer prophecy_. 

- A





- A


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## Talys (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> I am correct.
> 
> CanonFanBoy is correct. Although a f/2 lens is an f/2 lens, a M43 sensor is smaller than a FF sensor and hence M43 f/2 lens* is slower* than a FF f/2 lens. You have to apply the multiplication factor to get the 35mm equivalent.
> 
> A slower lens is a lens that lets in less light! A M43 lens with the f-stop as a FF lets in less light than the FF lens.



The f-stop is simply the focal length divided by the aperture diameter. For example, 100mm focal length divided by pupil dimeter of 50mm = f/2. Divided by a pupil diameter of 25mm, it would be f/4. This is literally the mathematical definition of the f-number (N = f/D).

The brightness of the projected scene has absolutely nothing to do with the size of the sensor. If you use a sensor smaller than the projected image circle, you'll just cut off (crop) the image. However, it would be accurate to say that using a smaller sensor behind the same optics will capture fewer photons (of course).

Instead of comparing sensors of the same aspect ratio, imagine if you took a FF sensor, and cut it in vertically in half down the middle. The left half sensor would now capture exactly half the light (number of photons) as the whole sensor. But the image and exposure settings on the left half sensor would be exactly the same as that of the whole sensor, and the image on the left half sensor would be the same as the image on the whole sensor, if you just cropped off the left half.

From a practical perspective, if you're using a Sekonic light meter to measure your exposure settings given your strobe setup... you don't dial in whether you are using a MFT or FF sensor. Given the amount of light you're throwing on your subject, the exposure settings will be the same regardless of MFT/APSC/FF.


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## unfocused (Sep 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> You can repeat yourself as often as you like, but it won’t make you correct. However, it seems there’s no point me in trying to explain it to you again.



Neuro, don't you know that handheld light meters have a special setting for the size of the film/sensor? Oh... wait...


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Neuro, don't you know that handheld light meters have a special setting for the size of the film/sensor? Oh... wait...


I think his problem was that he was trying to examples it in terms of sensor size. Now, if he’d said that a Panasonic f/2 lens is slower than a Canon f/2 lens is slower than a Hasselblad f/2 lens is slower than a Hubble f/2 lens, it might have made for better comedy.


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## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

mariosk9gr said:


> Ha you get offensive I see..! i dont care for other brands except for the one I have invested so much money all these years... I was expecting from Canon much more this time after all this waiting..!



Not offended, annoyed. Have fun with your Sony. Somehow, I don't believe you will switch. Sony paying Canon? Must be a joke.


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## ecpu (Sep 4, 2018)

Tomorrow cannot come soon enough... ugh.

I'm now kind of hoping it's not what I want because the A7III is actually available to purchase now... as opposed to EOS R which most certainly won't actually be available for a while yet.

Waiting for new stuff enrages me


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> A 500mm^2 hole is a 500mm^2 hole no matter what you strap it to.
> 
> Disregarding unquantifiable losses (difference between f and t stops), if you sample a scene with equivalent framing, aperture, and exposure time using a m43 and full frame, the same amount of light will pass through. But if you view the resulting images at the same size, the one you magnify less will look better.



Yes. 

But if the same amount of light is channeled/concentrated onto a smaller sensor, wouldn't it actually mean that an equivalent f/stop lens for M43 be faster than its FF counterpart. To elaborate;

Say we have 2 85mm f/2 lenses, one M43 and one FF. The focal length is the same, so the entrance pupil is the same. the light gathered however is projected to different sized sensors. Assuming M43 is half the area of FF, then the same amount of light is concentrated differently, with the M43 having more intense light? Would that not mean that the 85 f/2 M43 lens is faster?


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 4, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> I've said it elsewhere, so apologies for repeating myself…. I don't have any lenses that don't already have IS built-in—why pay for and have to drag around the extra complexity? IBIS is absolutely useless to everybody who owns IS lenses. Yeah there are some lenses that don't have IS yet—fix THEM!



As someone who owns IS lenses and cameras with IBIS, the combination of the two is remarkable. If you don't shoot much in low light, you won't need it, but there's many who benefit from being able to run a slower shutter speed when in running hand held. It's also almost downright magical for those who shoot video and has forced my DJI gimbal to gather dust.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

reef58 said:


> In most cases if your power windows or heated seats quit working you can still drive your car. You can also find a repair shop right down the road. If your IBIS quits working well your camera is not going to produce. That being said I guess the same could be said for IS Lens stabilization also.


and engine management systems too !


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## ecpu (Sep 4, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> As someone who owns IS lenses and cameras with IBIS, the combination of the two is remarkable. If you don't shoot much in low light, you won't need it, but there's many who benefit from being able to run a slower shutter speed when in running hand held. It's also almost downright magical for those who shoot video and has forced my DJI gimbal to gather dust.


Could not agree more! IBIS should be a standard feature in 2018/19. Especially in high end/FF cameras.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 4, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> I've said it elsewhere, so apologies for repeating myself…. I don't have any lenses that don't already have IS built-in—why pay for and have to drag around the extra complexity? IBIS is absolutely useless to everybody who owns IS lenses. Yeah there are some lenses that don't have IS yet—fix THEM!



IBIS can work in conjunction with the lens IS and make it even better still ....


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## Sharlin (Sep 4, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> This may be neither here nor there, but there is more to it than light volume. There is also a geometric difference (incident angle of the light rays being sampled), so I’m not sure it’s fair to assume something like “camera x is AF sensitive at -6EV using a f/1.2 lens, therefore it will be AF sensitive at -5EV using an f/1.8 lens.”



Yes, this. A discrete PDAF system is limited by the secondary mirror effectively functioning as an extra aperture stop. Moreover, the baseline, or separation between the two sensor strips making up an AF "point", constrains the phase difference that can be recorded. This is why "normal" AF points in Canon bodies have a fairly constant sensitivity up to f/4 or f/5.6, and only the long-baseline diagonal points in the center are extra sensitive at f/2.8.

But with DPAF it's a different story. What Canon is saying is that the sensitivity of this DPAF implementation keeps improving with faster lenses all the way down to f/1.2. This is pretty cool.


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## Andreos (Sep 4, 2018)

Here is Jared Polin's commentary on the these EOS R specs (credit is given to CR for publishing them). It's especially watch-worthy for those feeling the need for a fresh prespective, and levity:


----------



## wanako (Sep 4, 2018)

mariosk9gr said:


> Thas is really an immature answer. -lol- u need help by answering to my comment like this lol...



lol no, i do not require mental assistance. lol. a camera is is not making me angry in the slightest. lol. a fucking camera is making *YOU* angry. -lol- seek professional help. -lol- lololololol etc.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> Yes.
> 
> But if the same amount of light is channeled/concentrated onto a smaller sensor, wouldn't it actually mean that an equivalent f/stop lens for M43 be faster than its FF counterpart. To elaborate;
> 
> Say we have 2 85mm f/2 lenses, one M43 and one FF. The focal length is the same, so the entrance pupil is the same. the light gathered however is projected to different sized sensors. Assuming M43 is half the area of FF, then the same amount of light is concentrated differently, with the M43 having more intense light? Would that not mean that the 85 f/2 M43 lens is faster?


What makes you think the ‘light is *channeled/concentrated* onto a smaller sensor’?? Actually, where you got that idea doesn’t really matter, that’s not what’s happening. Crop factor is called that for a reason. Crop. Think about it.

The situation you’re describing can happen, but only when using a lens with a larger image circle than needed for the sensor, and only with additional optics. Imagine a 0.7x TC. Or just Google speedbooster.


----------



## Kit Lens Jockey (Sep 4, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> But with DPAF it's a different story. What Canon is saying is that the sensitivity of this DPAF implementation keeps improving with faster lenses all the way down to f/1.2. This is pretty cool.



As someone who was really looking forward to getting the most out of the 50mm f1.0 on the new EOS R, I feel left out. This is bullshit.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

lb said:


> The Canon wheel has gone from the back, now looks like a Nikon copy except no Joystick as you said, and an old fashioned SD card slot instead of a sturdy xqd card slot, very disappointed with Canon, keeping my hard earned cash, no value added features from the 5D series.?????





nchoh said:


> I have seen the word crippled being used to describe the EOS R many times in this thread.
> 
> 
> CanonFanBoy is correct. Although a f/2 lens is an f/2 lens, a M43 sensor is smaller than a FF sensor and hence M43 f/2 lens is slower than a FF f/2 lens. You have to apply the multiplication factor to get the 35mm equivalent.



Except I did not say that. He did. I'm saying crop factor does not affect lens speed. It affects DOF. It affects framing the subject of the scene. I don't think it affects shutter speed. I don't think crop factor affects that so I don't think the f/2 M43 lens is "slower" than the f/2 FF lens. However, I am open minded to learn what "slower" means here. To me, that means shutter speed. Is and f/5.6 M43 lens essentially an f/11.2 lens when it comes to exposure? I don't believe that. Why are you multiplying the f stop by the crop factor? That does not make sense to me at all, but I really want to know how that could be if somebody could explain that. I did not notice a change in exposure when I ran APS-C and FF at the same time. I think the same would be true for M43. In fact, I am sure of it myself. Crop does not change lens speed or exposure. So I want to know what "slower" means here. If it is about DOF and Bokeh, I think "slower" doesn't apply. DOF is twice as shallow at the same diastance and the same at double the distance compared to FF. So what the hell does "slower" mean?


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

Talys said:


> The brightness of the projected scene has absolutely nothing to do with the size of the sensor. If you use a sensor smaller than the projected image circle, you'll just cut off (crop) the image. However, it would be accurate to say that using a smaller sensor behind the same optics will capture fewer photons (of course).



If you are using a EF lens on a EF-S body, that would be true, however if you get an EF-S lens on and EF-S camera, the lens being designed to focus as much of the gathered light onto the EF-S sized sensor, that would be different.

As I replied to Talys...

Suppose we take two lenses one M43 and one FF, both are 85 f/2. The focal lengths are the same, so the entrance pupil are the same size. The amount of light gathered is therefore the same. But that same amount of light is focused onto different sized sensors. The M43 sensor being smaller having the same amount of light focused onto it means that the intensity of light on the M43 sensor is greater. Does that mean that a 85mm f/2 lens for M43 is faster than the FF 85mm f/2 lens?


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> What makes you think the ‘light is *channeled/concentrated* onto a smaller sensor’?? Actually, where you got that idea doesn’t really matter, that’s not what’s happening. Crop factor is called that for a reason. Crop. Think about it.
> 
> The situation you’re describing can happen, but only when using a lens with a larger image circle than needed for the sensor, and only with additional optics. Imagine a 0.7x TC. Or just Google speedbooster.



Isn't that what lenses do? Focus and concentrate the light?

Yes, I understand what crop factor means. Just to get aligned on the discussion, crop factor is the ratio of the 2 sensors being compared.

To add more to the discussion... isn't that what a speed booster does? Instead of letting the light go to waste, it concentrates the light into a small circle, thus boosting the speed? I am not a lens expert by any means, but I am sure that lens by very nature concentrates light. To elaborate, I you take a picture of a building, say 20 square meters... and the light is concentrated onto a sensor 864 mm^2. Isn't the light concentrated?


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## scyrene (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> What is the deal? Do they just not think IBIS would be reliable? Are they that stubborn that they're sticking to their guns and claiming lens image stability is better even as everyone else goes to IBIS?



I'm sorry, but if you raise your hopes unrealistically, then you will be disappointed. IBIS was only considered by the forum crowd as a likelihood for about twelve hours when the first info came out. Previously, there has been no indication that Canon can or would add it to their cameras. As for why, it seems to be a combination of seemingly lacking the patents, and believing in lens-based IS. While I can personally see the benefit of IBIS for non-IS lenses (especially legacy glass) and doubling up with lens IS, given we've never had it before on the Canon side and there was no indication it would come, I can't feel disappointed. Many lenses have IS (including wider aperture and wider angle ones, like the recent 85 1.4 - which indicate more IS lenses in future), so it's not like there's no stabilisation available.


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## scyrene (Sep 4, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Not all nighttime landscapes are astro. Cityscapes come to mind as well. I remember Chris Gampat at Phoblographer rave about shooting an Olympus and with an UWA lens held the shutter open for something absurd -- _up to 15 seconds_ -- and net sharp shots with the IBIS of that system. That's bonkers.
> 
> I find absurd 5+ second hand held shots a bit of a parlour trick. But lets admit _that it's a neat parlour trick_, and I'm stuck in dark cave-like interiors or nighttime city walkabouts sans flash all the time. I have lens IS on all four of my wider lenses I might use in those siutations (16-35 f/4L IS, 24-70 f/4L IS, 28 f/2.8 IS, 35 f/2 IS), but if IBIS + Lens IS can add to greater effect (esp. on wider FLs), color me interested with IBIS.
> 
> - A



It's definitely enticing, and I'd love to give it a go. I doubt you get a true doubling up by combining the two kinds of stabilisation - does anyone have any data on this? So a 4-stop in-lens IS plus IBIS isn't gonna give 7-8 stops, I just don't see that being possible (and 15 second exposures seem pretty unrealistic for most people however good the technology!). Every little helps, especially with non-IS lenses. But all the same, I'm left shaking my head at the number of forum newbies for whom this is apparently a make-or-break feature


----------



## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> You said the M43 lenses were 2 stops slower than FF.


No, I said that you should not compare M43 lenses for "speed" and "obtainability" with FF lenses, because those M43 lenses that you present as "fast", for all practical purposes, will correspond to different FF lenses, 2 times longer and 2 stops slower.



CanonFanBoy said:


> In other words, that an M43 lenses would need a faster shutter speed than an f/2 lens on FF with the same light, "for every practical purpose". Do you mean when using flash and getting the same framing? Or is that also true with natural light? That is what I want you to explain to me.


"For all practical purposes" means (if we assume a practically good enough lens and a practically good enough sensor) the same scene with the same objects at the same distances from the camera and each other, the same angle of view, the same lighting (the same ambient light, the same flashes), _the same shutter speed_, the same bokeh, DoF and shot noise on the final image magnified to the same final size.

At this conditions, M43 50/2 is equivalent to FF 100/4, and FF 50/2 is equivalent to M43 25/1.

Yes, you can take the same picture (ignoring the sensor pixel pitch difference) with FF 50/2 as you can do with FF 100/4 _if you cut off 3/4 of the resulting image_ but no, it won't make FF 50/2 and FF 100/4 _equivalent_ lenses for practical purposes, because you cannot use FF 100/4 to take the same pictures FF 50/2 takes uncropped.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Sep 4, 2018)

scyrene said:


> I'm sorry, but if you raise your hopes unrealistically, then you will be disappointed. IBIS was only considered by the forum crowd as a likelihood for about twelve hours when the first info came out. Previously, there has been no indication that Canon can or would add it to their cameras. As for why, it seems to be a combination of seemingly lacking the patents, and believing in lens-based IS. While I can personally see the benefit of IBIS for non-IS lenses (especially legacy glass) and doubling up with lens IS, given we've never had it before on the Canon side and there was no indication it would come, I can't feel disappointed. Many lenses have IS (including wider aperture and wider angle ones, like the recent 85 1.4 - which indicate more IS lenses in future), so it's not like there's no stabilisation available.



Honestly I don't believe in most of the wild speculation coming out of this forum. It's nice to get the early info when real specifications leak out. But if you remember, as of a week ago people were talking about the possibility of a crazy telescoping mount to allow both EF and RF lenses to mount, backed up by patents and everything. So, I recognize that no one really knows anything until actual specs come out.

Once Nikon came out with it, I figured it was only logical that Canon would since both of Canon's biggest competitors have it. I didn't try to read some crazy patent tea leaves, I just figured that from a competitive standpoint, it would be logical that Canon would come out with IBIS once Nikon announced that they were going to include it. Otherwise, Canon would appear to be very behind the curve with respect to a major feature on their new camera. And, sadly, that appears that it's the case.  I still love the way their cameras function and perform. They do what they were made to do very well. It's just that sadly they aren't made to do as much as the competition seems to be lately.


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## Sharlin (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> If you are using a EF lens on a EF-S body, that would be true, however if you get an EF-S lens on and EF-S camera, the lens being designed to focus as much of the gathered light onto the EF-S sized sensor, that would be different.
> 
> Suppose we take two lenses one M43 and one FF, both are 85 f/2. The focal lengths are the same, so the entrance pupil are the same size. The amount of light gathered is therefore the same. But that same amount of light is focused onto different sized sensors. The M43 sensor being smaller having the same amount of light focused onto it means that the intensity of light on the M43 sensor is greater. Does that mean that a 85mm f/2 lens for M43 is faster than the FF 85mm f/2 lens?



No, what you're forgetting here is that those lenses have different angles of view and image circles of different sizes. As the angle of view decreases the amount of light gathered also decreases, entrance pupil size staying constant. This is why a longer lens needs a larger entrance pupil to have the same _f _value, and indeed why _f_ values are relative to the focal length instead of absolute values.

A FF 85mm/2 lens and a m43 85mm/2 lens, attached to a m43 camera, produce identical images with identical exposure, ceteris paribus. The former gathers more light from a larger angle of view, but the extra light is then wasted as the sensor is much smaller than the image circle. The latter gathers less light with a smaller angle of view, but the image circle snugly fits the sensor. These differences cancel out exactly.

The reason the same shutter speed and _f_ value produce the same exposure between sensors of greatly varying sizes is the third component we can vary – the ISO! Unlike the first two, ISO doesn't measure anything physical, and is simply chosen by each manufacturer such that standard exposure is achieved. The actual physical number of photons gathered at ISO 100 is very different in a cell phone versus a FF camera.


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## BeenThere (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I'm so deeply disappointed by the lack of IBIS. IBIS opens up so many possibilities for taking night time landscapes without having to haul around a cumbersome tripod. With Sony having it, and Nikon jumping on the bandwagon, I thought for sure Canon would get with it. But no.
> 
> It's so frustrating the way they make cameras that are solid, reliable, great to use, which keeps me sticking with them, but consistently lack the features and technological advancement of the competitors. It's like we're always forced to choose between having a robust, easy to use camera, and one with the latest features.
> 
> ...


No one outside Canon really knows, but there would be some delta cost, some increased use of processor power, and some crow dining due to years of touting in-lens IS as the only way to go.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Sep 4, 2018)

scyrene said:


> But all the same, I'm left shaking my head at the number of forum newbies for whom this is apparently a make-or-break feature


At least as far as I'm concerned, I don't consider it "make-or-break" as in I'm not going to buy this camera now that it doesn't have IBIS. I'm sure it's still going to be a good camera and I'll get a lot of use out of it. It's just that I was really looking forward to ditching my Sony that I had bought into partially for the fact that it had IBIS. And now, I'm not sure if I want to do that since it'll leave me without any camera that has IBIS, whereas if Canon had it, I'd have no qualms about getting rid of the Sony and it's horrible ergonomics and usability.


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## amorse (Sep 4, 2018)

Anyone know what time (and timezone) this announcement is happening?


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> No, what you're forgetting here is that those lenses have different angles of view and image circles of different sizes. As the angle of view decreases the amount of light gathered also decreases, entrance pupil size staying constant. This is why a longer lens needs a larger entrance pupil to have the same _f _value, and indeed why _f_ values are relative to the focal length instead of absolute values.
> 
> A FF 85mm/2 lens and a m43 85mm/2 lens, attached to a m43 camera, produce identical images with identical exposure, ceteris paribus. The former gathers more light from a larger angle of view, but the extra light is then wasted as the sensor is much smaller than the image circle. The latter gathers less light with a smaller angle of view, but the image circle snugly fits the sensor. These differences cancel out exactly.
> 
> The reason the same shutter speed and _f_ value produce the same exposure between sensors of greatly varying sizes is the third component we can vary – the ISO! Unlike the first two, ISO doesn't measure anything physical, and is simply chosen by each manufacturer such that standard exposure is achieved. The actual physical number of photons gathered at ISO 100 is very different in a cell phone versus a FF camera.



Hi Sharlin, thanks for your reply... I forgot that the view of angle for different sensors size is different!

I stand corrected. If the amount of light collected is proportionally less from FF to M43 with the sensor size, then the F/stops (speed) should be equivalent.


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## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> No, I said that you should not compare M43 lenses for "speed" and "obtainability" with FF lenses, because those M43 lenses that you present as "fast", for all practical purposes, will correspond to different FF lenses, 2 times longer and 2 stops slower.
> 
> 
> "For all practical purposes" means (if we assume a practically good enough lens and a practically good enough sensor) the same scene with the same objects at the same distances from the camera and each other, the same angle of view, the same lighting (the same ambient light, the same flashes), _the same shutter speed_, the same bokeh, DoF and shot noise on the final image magnified to the same final size.
> ...


So are you talking signal to noise ratio? Because crop does not affect sensor speed. I still don't get it. In decent light there is no noise to speak of either way.

So an M43 f/5.6 behaves like an F/11.2 FF lens? In what way?

Speed or what? Obtain-ability of what?

I guess I am going to have to go outside and see for myself. I'll set my Canon 24-70mm f/2.8L II and my Olympus M. Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro to the same focal lengths (marked 35mm on each not 12/24 because we are talking same focal length, not equivalent focal length, but I will also do a test at quivalent focal length. 70mm equivalent sound okay?), f/stop. I'll set the cameras to the same shutter speed, and ISO. I suspect that shutter speed will be the same with the same framing. I cannot see how the M43 lens can be considered "slower". And I don't think you have explained what "slower" means in this case. Again, not trying to be a smart ass or troll. I am just not getting it. Maybe Neuro, or Don, or somebody can make it simpler for me.

At the *same framing*, DOF is the same. *It is actually shallower on M43 at same distance* to subject so blur should be more pronounced.
In the same light? I expect exposure to be the same. I think you are saying I would have to expose longer (f/4 exposes longer than f/2.8, all else being equal.).
At the same framing the angle would be the same, right?
There will be no noise in decent light in my opinion. But noise has to do with sensor size and design, not lens speed.

So I still don't know what you mean by "slower".

I'm saying both lenses are fast because they can both shoot in the same light with the camera set to the same exact shutter speed, ISO, and the lens at the same f/stop. So I would think an f/.095 lens on either camera is very fast in that case and fast and light. You seem to be talking about same bokeh and noise ratio and angle of view.

I'll go check it out right now. I'll measure distance with a tape measure.


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## Sharlin (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> Hi Sharlin, please read my post again... [1] I am comparing both 85mm f/2 for M43 and FF, I understand that 85mm lenses should have the same angles of view. Am I wrong?



A 85mm lens for FF has an angle of view of about 24 degrees. A 85mm lens for m43 has an an angle of view of about 12 degrees. This is exactly what the talk of "crop factors" or "equivalent focal lengths" is about. That 85mm m43 lens gives an angle of view roughly equivalent to 2*85mm=170mm FF lens because the "crop factor" of an m43 sensor is 2. But it is still definitely a 85mm lens.


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> A 85mm lens for FF has an angle of view of about 24 degrees. A 85mm lens for m43 has an an angle of view of about 12 degrees. This is exactly what the talk of "crop factors" or "equivalent focal lengths" is about. That 85mm m43 lens gives an angle of view roughly equivalent to 2*85mm=170mm FF lens because the "crop factor" of an m43 sensor is 2. But it is still definitely a 85mm lens.



Sorry, I thought about it after I posted and deleted the post. You are right!


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## Talys (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> At least as far as I'm concerned, I don't consider it "make-or-break" as in I'm not going to buy this camera now that it doesn't have IBIS. I'm sure it's still going to be a good camera and I'll get a lot of use out of it. It's just that I was really looking forward to ditching my Sony that I had bought into partially for the fact that it had IBIS. And now, I'm not sure if I want to do that since it'll leave me without any camera that has IBIS, whereas if Canon had it, I'd have no qualms about getting rid of the Sony and it's horrible ergonomics and usability.


I'd look at it a different way. Putting aside my huge personal preference for shooting with Canon bodies over Sony, looking at core technology only, none of the current FF mirrorless cameras have it all. If I had to pick/prioritize, I would put DPAF over IBIS because hybrid AF with on sensor PDAF and contrast detect drives me nuts. But if I'm honest about it, I value a fully articulating screen more than either technology.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2018)

Talys said:


> I'd look at it a different way. Putting aside my huge personal preference for shooting with Canon bodies over Sony, looking at core technology only, none of the current FF mirrorless cameras have it all. If I had to pick/prioritize, I would put DPAF over IBIS because hybrid AF with on sensor PDAF and contrast detect drives me nuts. But if I'm honest about it, I value a fully articulating screen more than either technology.


What is you don't like about the on-sensor PDAF and contrast? Is it the switch over to contrast only at f/8?


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## Alino (Sep 4, 2018)

Does anyone know the hour for the official anouncement? Please?


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## Durf (Sep 4, 2018)

amorse said:


> Anyone know what time (and timezone) this announcement is happening?



Just occasionally check back here in this thread and a few others in this forum. 
When you see a huge escalation of pages of much more extreme whining and camera bashing, well, then you'll know the announcement has been made.....


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## SaP34US (Sep 4, 2018)

Does the EOS R use the Digic 8 processor?Will it have double processor on for video and the other photo?
What about ibis or ib electronic IS?
It sounds like great consumer or a prosumer body. If had to guess at a price on it if is considered more of a comsumer level camera $11-1400 while if it is clearly prosumer my guess would be $1400-1900 and w/the kit lens $1550-1800 or $1850-2300. What do you think?


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## zim (Sep 4, 2018)

It's happening right now!



….on the Jeremy Kyle show, he's got a couple of Canon execs on going at each other!  

ok that joke may be a little regional


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> So are you talking signal to noise ratio? Because crop does not affect sensor speed. I still don't get it. In decent light there is no noise to speak of either way.


I am talking about DoF, bokeh, diffraction-limited resolution, and also SNR. I don't consider "the same sensor speed" to be of a practical importance when trying to get the same images from sensors of different size... except for when we are limited by the pixel's electron well depth: highlight clipping due to overexposure happens easier on smaller sensors, but it's a practical limitation of the smaller sensor, not an increased light gathering ability of the "faster" lens.

If we disregard highlight clipping, then we can mentally replace a sensor with a ground glass. The FF ground glass will be illuminated 4 times dimmer than the M43 ground glass with the equivalent image, but once both of them are projected to the final image of the same size, the illumination of the final image will be the same.



CanonFanBoy said:


> So an M43 f/5.6 behaves like an F/11.2 FF lens? In what way?


A M43 200/5.6 lens is practically equivalent to FF 400/11.2 lens in DoF, bokeh, diffraction-related unsharpness, as well as - when shooting with the same shutter speed - motion-related unsharpness and optical SNR.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> Hi Sharlin, please read my post again... [1] I am comparing both 85mm f/2 for M43 and FF, I understand that 85mm lenses should have the same angles of view. *Am I wrong?*
> 
> [2] I assume that the lens designer designs the (native) lens to waste as little light as possible, there should be roughly the same amount of wasted light if the lens is native. *Am I wrong?*



Yes and yes.

As I said, it’s a *crop factor*. Specifications like 85mm and f/2 are intrinsic to the lens – the focal length is the physical distance between the rear nodal point and the image plane (sensor) with the lens focused to infinity, and the f/stop is the focal length divided by the physical diameter of the iris diaphragm when fully open. Those values are totally independent of the sensor behind the lens. A smaller sensor uses only a portion of the image circle, i.e. a small region *crop*ped from the image circle.

_Edit: I see you deleted the post to which I was in the process of replying. Seems you’ve learned something today...here, have a patch. _


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## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

Alino said:


> Does anyone know the hour for the official anouncement? Please?




Someone posted it would happen on Facebook at 9 PM Hong Kong time on Sept. 5th.

- A


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## jmoya (Sep 4, 2018)

this is basically a mirrorless 6d II. wait for the 5d mirrorless model to be out early next year.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> That's why a properly processed dual pixel RAW file delivers more dynamic range than Sony's best sensors are capable of...if that sort of thing is important to you.


This really IS an interesting feature of dual pixel technology.


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## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> This really IS an interesting feature of dual pixel technology.




If we didn't need software outside of our relatively mundane (ACR, LR, PS, etc.) workflow to tap into this potential, I'd be more geeked about this.

Glad Canon can do this, but they should put the screws to Adobe to have a separate tab or slider for DPRAW integration into RAW processing workflows.

Also: when in PTP going to publish DR info on 5D4 with DPRAW? I thought some of us sent Bill Claff files so that he could do just that.

- A


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## applecider (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> If you are using a EF lens on a EF-S body, that would be true, however if you get an EF-S lens on and EF-S camera, the lens being designed to focus as much of the gathered light onto the EF-S sized sensor, that would be different.
> 
> As I replied to Talys...
> 
> Suppose we take two lenses one M43 and one FF, both are 85 f/2. The focal lengths are the same, so the entrance pupil are the same size. The amount of light gathered is therefore the same. But that same amount of light is focused onto different sized sensors. The M43 sensor being smaller having the same amount of light focused onto it means that the intensity of light on the M43 sensor is greater. Does that mean that a 85mm f/2 lens for M43 is faster than the FF 85mm f/2 lens?


No
Where are you getting the focusing of the full frame EF lens on the smaller sensor?

The light per mm2 is the same, that’s the intensity or the photo settings, the exposure triangle. The light from the EF lens on a crop body that does not fall on the sensor is wasted, it falls on the gears mount battery case, it does not get concentrated or focused on the smaller sensor in normal use. Actually it falls on the light sucking black parts of camera.

The distance from sensor to back of lens is the same for FF vs EF-S. ( mirrorless is a different case), so no change in intensity. 
Show us that you can learn, have an epiphany.

It looks like while I composed this msg you did indeed begin your epiphany. Congratulations.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 4, 2018)

nchoh said:


> I am correct.
> 
> CanonFanBoy is correct. Although a f/2 lens is an f/2 lens, a M43 sensor is smaller than a FF sensor and hence M43 f/2 lens* is slower* than a FF f/2 lens. You have to apply the multiplication factor to get the 35mm equivalent.
> 
> A slower lens is a lens that lets in less light! A M43 lens with the f-stop as a FF lets in less light than the FF lens.



Nope, it's not "slower". The exposure will be the same given the same scene and aperture. Imagine you shoot FF and then manually crop to 4/3 size in postprocessing. The part you cropped doesn't become darker just because you trimmed the image.


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## BillB (Sep 4, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> If we didn't need software outside of our relatively mundane (ACR, LR, PS, etc.) workflow to tap into this potential, I'd be more geeked about this.
> 
> Glad Canon can do this, but they should put the screws to Adobe to have a separate tab or slider for DPRAW integration into RAW processing workflows.
> 
> ...


I don't know that Claff's methodology would work with processed DPRAW files. My understanding his that his DR calculations are based on sensor noise (or at least what comes out of the camera), not image output analysis after playing around with external software.


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## shutterfreek (Sep 4, 2018)

FREEKING HYPED! SO PUMPED! Canon just pulls through.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> If we didn't need software outside of our relatively mundane (ACR, LR, PS, etc.) workflow to tap into this potential, I'd be more geeked about this.
> 
> Glad Canon can do this, but they should put the screws to Adobe to have a separate tab or slider for DPRAW integration into RAW processing workflows.
> 
> ...


If they value extracting that extra range at the expense of file size, Canon should get on itself in DPP before nagging Adobe!


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## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

Some folks on this thread (earlier):

EOS R is a sub-$1k camera at these specs.
EF lenses will be crippled on EOS R despite copious evidence EOS-M adapts them just fine.
The EF lens mount is on its last legs.
EOS R is a complete failure without IBIS, Eye AF, etc.
A camera with a 5D4 sensor and DPRAW being launched with a new 50L and f/2L zoom is clearly a mirrorless 6D2.
Other folks on this thread (right now):

Here's my chance! *This* bright batch of students are the ones where my lecture on equivalence will really change some minds!


- A


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## nchoh (Sep 4, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes and yes.
> 
> As I said, it’s a *crop factor*. Specifications like 85mm and f/2 are intrinsic to the lens – the focal length is the physical distance between the rear nodal point and the image plane (sensor) with the lens focused to infinity, and the f/stop is the focal length divided by the physical diameter of the iris diaphragm when fully open. Those values are totally independent of the sensor behind the lens. A smaller sensor uses only a portion of the image circle, i.e. a small region *crop*ped from the image circle.
> 
> _Edit: I see you deleted the post to which I was in the process of replying. Seems you’ve learned something today...here, have a patch. _



Yes I did... but it was a simple fact put out by Sharlin without any big words that helped me get that bulb lit up!


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## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Speed or what? Obtain-ability of what?


Neither FF 25/0.95 nor FF 50/0.95 as obtainable as M43 25/0.95. Nor they would be as cheap to produce. Nor they would be equivalent to M43 25/0.95 with the images they would be producing.



CanonFanBoy said:


> I guess I am going to have to go outside and see for myself. I'll set my Canon 24-70mm f/2.8L II and my Olympus M. Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro to the same focal lengths (marked 35mm on each not 12/24 because we are talking same focal length,


No, we are talking the same framing at the same distance. "Focal length" is not something that I would try to keep constant when trying to reproduce the same picture with cameras of different sensor formats.

However, if you do try to keep the focal length constant, don't be surprised when you won't get _equivalent_ images. You will be able to crop the FF image to get the full M43 image (pixel pitch nonwithstanding), but you will not be able to crop the M43 image to get the full FF image.



CanonFanBoy said:


> not equivalent focal length, but I will also do a test at quivalent focal length. 70mm equivalent sound okay?), f/stop.


With 70/2.8 you will get the equivalent framing, but not equivalent DoF and bokeh. With 70/5.6, you will get equivalent framing and equivalent DoF and bokeh.



CanonFanBoy said:


> I'll set the cameras to the same shutter speed, and ISO.


You don't need to set the same ISO on cameras with different pixel pitch. A camera with a large pixel size actually behaves as a film with higher ISO (larger grain size).

Although, if it doesn't cause highlight clipping, it mostly can be fixed in Lightroom.



CanonFanBoy said:


> At the *same framing*, DOF is the same. *It is actually shallower on M43 at same distance* to subject so blur should be more pronounced.


At the same framing *and the same distance to the subject*, DoF is the same when the absolute aperture is the same.



CanonFanBoy said:


> In the same light? I expect exposure to be the same. I think you are saying I would have to expose longer.


No, I'm saying "practically equivalent". A longer exposure is not practically equivalent to a shorter exposure.



CanonFanBoy said:


> There will be no noise in decent light in my opinion.


Still, a lot of people here are asking for "more DR".



CanonFanBoy said:


> But noise has to do with sensor size and design, not lens speed.


Optical shot noise ("grain" on the digital image) has to do with the amount of photons coming through the entrance pupil. That's the lens-related noise.

There is also sensor-related noise, but I don't think it is worth talking about when we talk about lens equivalence.



CanonFanBoy said:


> So I still don't know what you mean by "slower".


I mean that:
1) results that you can get on M43, you can also get on FF using 2 stops slower lenses with 2 times longer focal length, and
2) results that you can get on FF, you can also get on M43 using 2 stops faster lenses with 2 times shorter focal length (if available).

(1) and (2) together is what makes M43 lenses and 2 stops slower FF lenses with 2 times longer focal length practically _equivalent_.

@ahsanford


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## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> I am talking about DoF, bokeh, diffraction-limited resolution, and also SNR. I don't consider "the same sensor speed" to be of a practical importance when trying to get the same images from sensors of different size... except for when we are limited by the pixel's electron well depth: highlight clipping due to overexposure happens easier on smaller sensors, but it's a practical limitation of the smaller sensor, not an increased light gathering ability of the "faster" lens.
> 
> If we disregard highlight clipping, then we can mentally replace a sensor with a ground glass. The FF ground glass will be illuminated 4 times dimmer than the M43 ground glass with the equivalent image, but once both of them are projected to the final image of the same size, the illumination of the final image will be the same.
> 
> ...



Ahhh... that's what my calculator says too. So what you mean is obtainablity of same DOF at the same distance with an equivacal focal length.

Well, I have to respectfully disagree that an M43 f/0.95 lens is two stops slower in speed then. When taking a portrait (6 ft.) with a M43 camera (50mm f/0.95) The shutter speed is the same as taking a photo with a FF camera (50mm f/0.95) at half the distance (3') and DOF is exactly the same. Exactly. At those distances stepping back a little is not much of an issue to me. In that set up or any set up, f/0.95 has the same low light capability whether FF or M43, except for noise; which is a sensor issue and not a lens issue.

Now I don't have to test.  Thank you!

You original post said that small and light lenses are unobtainable for FF. I disagree. Canon's EF 50mm f/1.4 is small and light. Some think the quality is good. If you wish to define "quality" as only being "L" lenses and the resolution of such, well that is your issue. My niece is a pro wedding/ engagement, portrait photographer. (Jenna Davis) She uses an ASP-C Canon and standard EF lenses. She makes her living this way. People like the quality of her work. Her EF 50mm f/1.4 is small, light, and does a great job for her. When it comes down to it the photographer makes the photo. My friend is a famous celebrity fashion photographer. He goes all over the world. He uses a crop Nikon and old Nikon MF lenses. He only uses an modern AF lens for the runway shots (70-200) Apparently the quality of his very old Nikon MF lenses is good. He tells me lenses don't matter. The style of photo matters. So many people say that "L" is a pro lens. I love my"L" glass. But it doesn't make Pro photos. The photographer does that(not me). So these people crying for a pro camera and small, light Pro lenses (Some even saying clients expect the latest and greatest), in my opinion, are talking about price. Their remarks about having to have the latest and greatest to compete are mostly BS. Plenty of people make extremely good livings with M43 (https://www.olympus-imagespace.co.uk/photographers/damian-mcgillicuddy/) , APS-C, and FF with lenses that these blowhards insist are not good enough (not you). Cameras and lenses are not professionals. Some photographers are.

I know, there are people who only shoot wide open all the time. Oh well.

Please understand, I am not big on M43 systems. I have one. I rarely use it because it is too small for me. I just disagree with you about speed. For me, DOF isn't the issue. Fair enough?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> @ahsanford




Pick your battles, people. This is a new body thread! 

- A


----------



## crashpc (Sep 4, 2018)

I was reading the first page thinking it is the last one. Could be changed for each other, no difference in knowledge really. 
We´re so hyped. Hopefully we´ll know by tomorrow.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Pick your battles, people. This is a new body thread!
> 
> - A



Well, our discussion started out on the body thread with fast light lenses being unobtainable. But yes, we are now on a tangent.


----------



## zim (Sep 4, 2018)

mariosk9gr said:


> Its a figure of speech! but how you can undestand? make us a favor and go fucking die..!



disgraceful


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

mariosk9gr said:


> I dont give a cent about Sony...



And that's why your post was about Sony being superior in your opinion? But yeah, I might be drunk.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

zim said:


> disgraceful


Wow. You are right, Zim. Reported.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

mariosk9gr said:


> I didn't say Sony is superior! learn to "READ" m8!!! wtf...?


----------



## Act444 (Sep 4, 2018)

Just had a thought...

I wonder if Canon will eventually release a MILC that will be able to natively mount both RF AND EF lenses...noticed the adapter seems to be called the "EF-EOS R" adapter instead of simply the "EF-RF" adapter. If so, maybe that was the plan from the get-go, but Nikon's "Z" announcement forced their hand earlier than expected...


----------



## Talys (Sep 4, 2018)

AlanF said:


> What is you don't like about the on-sensor PDAF and contrast? Is it the switch over to contrast only at f/8?



To be clear, I'm talking about Sony, because I've never tried other mirrorless cameras for enough time to form a meaningful opinion.

On the Sony,the PDAF and CD mode performance is hugely different, but switchover from one to the other is not just as simple as f8, which I could live with. For example, continuous autofocus is PDAF if available, but one shot (AFS) is always contrast detect. That means even in sunlight with a f1.4 lens wide open, AF hunts. That is compounded by feature availability - some things like cross AF selection (where it is very accurate) only works in CD as does grabbing the MF ring when in AF mode.

Raw performance is also an issue. When there is less light, like a room lit with a 60W bulb, AF is much better with DPAF and infinitely better with dedicated off sensor PDAF AF. Plus, the cheapest DSLR can focus in a dim roomin an instant, and very accurately, with an AF illuminator from a cheap flash, but hybrid AF struggles like crazy.

DPAF isn't totally competitive with off sensor PDAF as available light decreases, but at least the experience is similar and at least for me, it feels snappy and confident.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

In ON TOPIC news... 

Announcement will be in less than 10 hours:

Los Angeles, USA 12:00 AM
Toronto, Canada 3:00 AM
London, England 8:00 AM
New Delhi, India 12:30 PM
Hong Kong 3:00 PM
Sydney, Australia 5:00 PM




- A


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## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

And as with all launches:

​  (referring to an EF 50 prime that is)
- A


----------



## scyrene (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Once Nikon came out with it, I figured it was only logical that Canon would since both of Canon's biggest competitors have it. I didn't try to read some crazy patent tea leaves, I just figured that from a competitive standpoint, it would be logical that Canon would come out with IBIS once Nikon announced that they were going to include it. Otherwise, Canon would appear to be very behind the curve with respect to a major feature on their new camera. And, sadly, that appears that it's the case.  I still love the way their cameras function and perform. They do what they were made to do very well. It's just that sadly they aren't made to do as much as the competition seems to be lately.





Kit Lens Jockey said:


> At least as far as I'm concerned, I don't consider it "make-or-break" as in I'm not going to buy this camera now that it doesn't have IBIS. I'm sure it's still going to be a good camera and I'll get a lot of use out of it. It's just that I was really looking forward to ditching my Sony that I had bought into partially for the fact that it had IBIS. And now, I'm not sure if I want to do that since it'll leave me without any camera that has IBIS, whereas if Canon had it, I'd have no qualms about getting rid of the Sony and it's horrible ergonomics and usability.



Fair enough. I'm sorry you're disappointed. Maybe they'll bring out an IBIS body eventually - most people hope so. I don't doubt it's important for some styles of shooting. I'm a big fan of IS, and the more we have, the better. But good in-lens IS, which Canon has in many key lenses, good technique, and where appropriate use of tripods still make a non-IBIS body perfectly usable in most situations, and it's best to be upbeat


----------



## ecpu (Sep 4, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> And as with all launches:
> 
> View attachment 180167​  (referring to an EF 50 prime that is)
> - A


What are you looking for exactly? An EF 50mm f1.2 with IS?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

Act444 said:


> Just had a thought...
> 
> I wonder if Canon will eventually release a MILC that will be able to natively mount both RF AND EF lenses...







I believe that's a dead end: 

Same mount (throat) diameter for EF + RF precludes the ability to nest one mount inside the other on a future mirrorless body.


I don't know if anyone has looked at this, but surely Canon didn't identically clone EF for the mounting geometry, i.e. EF on RF or vice versa should go 'clunk' and not mount or stop mounting in a clearly cock-eyed manner as a poka-yoke, correct?
So if the mounts can't be nested and the physical mounting features between the two mounts are different, the body can't serve two lens types.

Then there's the whole flange distance problem, where an RF lens wants a short flange distance and the EF lens wants to the longer flange distance. Even if Canon made a bats--- crazy 'hybrid EF/RF lens' to overcome that, i.e. a lens with enough internal space to fundamentally move entire elements/groups to work with either flange distance, the physical mount is still different and will go clunk.

He's dead, Jim. Unless I'm missing something important.

- A


----------



## Kit. (Sep 4, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Well, I have to respectfully disagree that an M43 f/0.95 lens is two stops slower in speed then. When taking a portrait (6 ft.) with a M43 camera (50mm f/0.95) The shutter speed is the same as taking a photo with a FF camera (50mm f/0.95) at half the distance (3') and DOF is exactly the same. Exactly.


But the pictures are not equivalent. On a FF, you are getting twice as large background smoothness*) and a noticeably larger nose.



CanonFanBoy said:


> You original post said that small and light lenses are unobtainable for FF.


Not _my_ post.



CanonFanBoy said:


> Canon's EF 50mm f/1.4 is small and light.


I know, but _its_ equivalent (in the sense of producing the same bokeh and the same enlarged nose) you will unlikely meet in M43. And the M43 equivalent of a FF .95 is physically impossible to make as an ordinary lens (it would break the laws of thermodynamics).

If you don't need that bokeh with that nose (or the light sensitivity that comes with them, or the DR that comes with a much more expensive sensor), M43 is actually a pretty decent format.



ahsanford said:


> Pick your battles, people. This is a new body thread!


At this stage, a couple of extra pages won't really hurt.

Edit:
(*) sorry, time to sleep, so cannot put my thoughts clearly. The bokeh effects in the image will be of the same apparent size, but due to compacted perspective, they will make background structures less recognizable.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

ecpu said:


> What are you looking for exactly? An EF 50mm f1.2 with IS?




No, I want

[deep breath, engage fast speech mode]

a sequel to the EF 50 f/1.4 USM in the form of a EF 35 f/2 IS USM but that is sharp and faster than f/2 in an internally focusing body with Ring USM and hopefully it's not too big like a pickle jar and comes with a compass and this thing which tells time

[exhale]

But Canon has taken 25 years to refresh this thing and I may just get an (EF) 50L refurb to get me by. 




- A


----------



## scyrene (Sep 4, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> And as with all launches:
> 
> View attachment 180167​  (referring to an EF 50 prime that is)
> - A



Your prime is included!


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 4, 2018)

Kit. said:


> But the pictures are not equivalent. On a FF, you are getting twice as large background smoothness and a noticeably larger nose.
> 
> 
> Not _my_ post.
> ...



I don't see what equivalent bokeh has to do with it, but I will say this again.

M43 50mm f/1.2 has shallower DOF at the same distance as FF 50mm f/1.2. Please see my previous calculations. Does that mean it has more blur?

When the photo is taken at twice the distance with M43 the DOF is exactly the same. Is the blur the same?

So that is what the calculator says about DOF.

They are both still f/1.2. So I still have no idea what this has to do with the* f stop of the lens*. I understand the IRIS is smaller on M43. I do. But they still shoot at the same exact speed in the same light. My gosh.

"a FF .95 is physically impossible to make as an ordinary lens." So? Those were hypothetical examples. Anyway, photo below is a FF lens: Canon FD 50mm f/0.95.

I collect old lenses, that's the only reason I know about this beast.


----------



## Hector1970 (Sep 4, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> No, I want
> 
> [deep breath, engage fast speech mode]
> 
> ...


What exactly do you want it for. 
Have you a particular type of picture in mind.
I know what you are asking for is pretty reasonable but is there no current work around for you?
I assume you've tried them all 40 2.8 50 1.4 50 1.2

Do you think the mirrorless will provide the lens you need? ie: it will come with a 50mm 1.4 at some point


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Your prime is included!




Fails all the following criteria:

Not EF
No IS
It's a big pickle jar (as long and heavier than the 50 Art)
Probably going to be focus by wire? 

Might be externally focusing
In short, this RF 50mm f/1.2L USM might be the razor sharp 50 f/1.2L II USM without nutty AF everyone wants (the 'Canon response to the Sigma Art' like the 35L II was), but it's not for me. When I'm shooting a 50 prime, it's principally for candids, street, walkabout, etc. and I want a more discreet instrument that leads to a lighter / smaller construct to pack and carry. I love small 50s and would like a modern one that doesn't have a stripped down feature set and STM focusing like the new nifty 50. In no uncertain terms, I want the sequel to the EF 50mm f/1.4 USM.

Annnnnnnnd I've taken the bait. I'm OT now. Apologies. #sorrynotsorry

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 4, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Do you think the mirrorless will provide the lens you need? ie: it will come with a 50mm 1.4 at some point




Appreciate the interest, but I'm shutting this down. We're OT as it is with the equivalence sidebar. 

This is an EOS R spec thread. We should get back on topic.

- A


----------



## scyrene (Sep 4, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Fails all the following criteria:
> 
> Not EF
> No IS
> ...



Are we sure the new 50mm isn't IS? Some people saw a potential second switch in the images? I agree it's unlikely though...

The lens might be bigger, but the lens + body might be slightly smaller...

I don't think Canon listens to forums but I think this is an exception and they are trolling you personally at this point


----------



## Jethro (Sep 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> In ON TOPIC news...
> 
> Announcement will be in less than 10 hours:
> 
> ...


Gee, it's a bit like the night before Christmas, isn't it!


----------



## Jethro (Sep 5, 2018)

I'm still interested in the 'strategy announcement' part of it. Where Canon is going with mirrorless, where they see the EF / EF-S / EF-M mounts going, whether there is an actual calendar for lens (or even other FFM bodies) released. I know it isn't their usual way to do this, but it seems like this is a big thing for them - they could give out more information than expected.

Also, getting a fuller idea of the specs (eg the EVF) will surely answer a lot of questions.


----------



## ken (Sep 5, 2018)

Jethro said:


> I'm still interested in the 'strategy announcement' part of it. Where Canon is going with mirrorless, where they see the EF / EF-S / EF-M mounts going, whether there is an actual calendar for lens (or even other FFM bodies) released. I know it isn't their usual way to do this, but it seems like this is a big thing for them - they could give out more information than expected.
> 
> Also, getting a fuller idea of the specs (eg the EVF) will surely answer a lot of questions.



The price alone will speak volumes. Is this what Canon considers a prosumer model, or is this their idea of a pro mirrorless model? (I hope it's prosumer. If so, the stars are aligning for me.)


----------



## Talys (Sep 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Fails all the following criteria:
> 
> Not EF
> No IS
> ...



Sok, I'm with you. I am not really excited about this lens either, primarily because I don't want a huge 50; I don't want a Canon 50 Art+ any more than a Canon A7R3+.


----------



## Talys (Sep 5, 2018)

Jethro said:


> I'm still interested in the 'strategy announcement' part of it. Where Canon is going with mirrorless, where they see the EF / EF-S / EF-M mounts going, whether there is an actual calendar for lens (or even other FFM bodies) released. I know it isn't their usual way to do this, but it seems like this is a big thing for them - they could give out more information than expected.
> 
> Also, getting a fuller idea of the specs (eg the EVF) will surely answer a lot of questions.


I suspect the EVF will be quite good. Hopefully, it's a step up from the M50, which is already quite usable.


----------



## herion (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Well, our discussion started out on the body thread with fast light lenses being unobtainable. But yes, we are now on a tangent.



Let's really go at it and discuss Canon's feature (or lack thereof) of super-luminal lens processing - you get a picture on the SD card *BEFORE* you mount the lens, aim the camera and hit the shutter button... 

... and perfectly focused...


----------



## Adelino (Sep 5, 2018)

Jethro said:


> I'm still interested in the 'strategy announcement' part of it. Where Canon is going with mirrorless, where they see the EF / EF-S / EF-M mounts going, whether there is an actual calendar for lens (or even other FFM bodies) released. I know it isn't their usual way to do this, but it seems like this is a big thing for them - they could give out more information than expected.
> 
> Also, getting a fuller idea of the specs (eg the EVF) will surely answer a lot of questions.


I have a feeling we will get less information than what we would like.


----------



## Adelino (Sep 5, 2018)

ken said:


> The price alone will speak volumes. Is this what Canon considers a prosumer model, or is this their idea of a pro mirrorless model? (I hope it's prosumer. If so, the stars are aligning for me.)


Even better would be if they view this as a beginning RF model, like the the original M. Then we could really go up from there (and expect a great price) Probably will not happen though.


----------



## BillB (Sep 5, 2018)

Talys said:


> Sok, I'm with you. I am not really excited about this lens either, primarily because I don't want a huge 50; I don't want a Canon 50 Art+ any more than a Canon A7R3+.


On the other hand a 35mm f1.8 IS....


----------



## retroreflection (Sep 5, 2018)

In defense of ibis, a lens IS system cannot correct for rotational vibration.

In defense of Canon, everything plus the kitchen sink spec lists are expensive. I also think ibis makes extraction of sensor heat more challenging (either detach from a heat sink, or increase the power of the five axis actuators). I think the bulk of Sony's "superiority" in video is due to Sony's willingness to roast their electronics. Canon doesn't reduce the lifetime of their electronics just to post big specs.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 5, 2018)

Jethro said:


> I'm still interested in the 'strategy announcement' part of it. Where Canon is going with mirrorless, where they see the EF / EF-S / EF-M mounts going, whether there is an actual calendar for lens (or even other FFM bodies) released. I know it isn't their usual way to do this, but it seems like this is a big thing for them - they could give out more information than expected.



I'd expect the following: all-but-overt statements that EF is not going away. We'll get a constant refrain that EF works brilliantly with this new system and in fact EF lenses are extended in their usefulness on a mirrorless body.

What absolutely won't be said:

1) EF is going away. Would cause a riot if they did.

2) That a Full EF body is happening. Would cause a ton of folks to sit on their credit cards and wait out this release.

- A


----------



## Isaacheus (Sep 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I'd expect the following: all-but-overt statements that EF is not going away. We'll get a constant refrain that EF works brilliantly with this new system and in fact EF lenses are extended in their usefulness on a mirrorless body.
> 
> What absolutely won't be said:
> 
> ...



I would kinda like to see the reaction to number 1, in a morbidly interestedway. Not that I'd actually like that outcome personally. 

I've held onto a number of ef lenses, so how Canon move into the ff mirror less world will really decide whether I say half and half, or if I start moving to a single system when I need to replace a camera next


----------



## Jaysheldon (Sep 5, 2018)

tpatana said:


> Let's hope this is the $1900 model, and then for the $2990 model they'll add:
> 
> 42Mpix+
> 15+fps
> ...



The $2990 model will have the same specs, but one extra feature: IBIS <g>


----------



## David Littleboy (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I don't see what equivalent bokeh has to do with it, but I will say this again.
> 
> M43 50mm f/1.2 has shallower DOF at the same distance as FF 50mm f/1.2. Please see my previous calculations. Does that mean it has more blur?
> 
> ...



No, no, no, no, no.

The point of photography is to actually take actual photographs, so it is only what happens in the final print/image that matters.

To compare, you have to compare apples to apples. Same camera to subject distance, same effective focal length, same pixel count, same print (or screen image) size. Even same viewing distance. Otherwise you are taking _different_ photographs, and the comparison is meaningless.

E.g. 35mm on APS-C to 50mm on FF
E.g. 50mm on APS-C to 85mm on FF.

At that point, you are taking (essentially) the same photo.

At which time there are _two_ differences (at the same f stop): the amount of light hitting each pixel and the DoF/bokeh. To match those, you have to open up the APS-C lens one whole stop.

At which point (other than lens resolution performance and availability of one-stop faster lenses) you get exactly the same photo. (Or would if the multiplier were 1.4 instead of 1.6. But for all practical purposes that difference is small.)

This is why a 35/1.4 on APS-C is equivalent to a 50/2.0 lens on FF. It really is. In every photographically significant way.

(APS-C cameras use a different definition of ISO: one with twice the noise of FF cameras (i.e. one-half the dynamic range: smaller pixel = smaller well depth.).)

In real life, the one f-stop loss of sensor sensitivity/bokeh isn't much of a big deal, and APS-C is a lot of fun. And you have to work really hard to get much advantage from FF.


----------



## sunnyboy (Sep 5, 2018)

Canon screw up! My advise is to stop buying of EF lens and sell away all your EF lens asap. The future is RF.


----------



## Jethro (Sep 5, 2018)

ken said:


> The price alone will speak volumes. Is this what Canon considers a prosumer model, or is this their idea of a pro mirrorless model? (I hope it's prosumer. If so, the stars are aligning for me.)


It looks like your gear-set is not dissimilar to mine, so I think we have a similar decision to make about a future body.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 5, 2018)

David Littleboy said:


> (APS-C cameras use a different definition of ISO: one with twice the noise of FF cameras (i.e. one-half the dynamic range: smaller pixel = smaller well depth.).)



Most camera manufacturers use saturation-based speed, not noise.


----------



## Jethro (Sep 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I'd expect the following: all-but-overt statements that EF is not going away. We'll get a constant refrain that EF works brilliantly with this new system and in fact EF lenses are extended in their usefulness on a mirrorless body.
> 
> What absolutely won't be said:
> 
> ...


I don't know - releasing L lenses for the new mount is a big step - especially if this is 'only' the prosumer version. Surely L lenses presupposes a pro version Real Soon Now?

Assuming tis afternoon (Australian time!) is the c. $1,900 version, then I could still see them flagging a pro version. I know that might stop some sales, but if they don't address it then presumably this (and other sites) are just going to spend their time speculating on the pro version anyway? If the first drop is, in any case, lower spec'd (in some ways) than the Z7, there would also be the incentive to say that something better is coming.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 5, 2018)

Jethro said:


> I don't know - releasing L lenses for the new mount is a big step - especially if this is 'only' the prosumer version. Surely L lenses presupposes a pro version Real Soon Now?




Sure, but even a pro-level mirrorless isn't the end of EF. Canon wants to sell both SLRs and mirrorless at the same time.

Canon loves multiple premium price points. Folks with a lot of money might buy one of each.

- A


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 5, 2018)

David Littleboy said:


> No, no, no, no, no.
> 
> The point of photography is to actually take actual photographs, so it is only what happens in the final print/image that matters.
> 
> ...



In question is not equivalency of photo appearance. In question is lens speed. Lens speed. Lens speed. Lens speed! Not DOF. Not noise. Not creaminess of bokeh. Not distance to subject. (BTW: DOF is shallower on M43 at the same diastance as FF. Not anything else. An M4/3 lens f/2 will shoot at the same exact shutter speed as an f/2 lens on FF. In other words, an f/2 lens is an f/2 lens no matter what it is mounted on. Lens speed is completely independent of body or sensor size. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with crop or FF. Will the photos look the same? Obviously not. Exposure is the same. You must have missed the beginning.

And what does it matter if I shoot a 50mm FF at 3" and then the M4/3 at 6 feet to get the same framing? DOF is exactly the same at that point! So is exposure! Good Lord!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Not all nighttime landscapes are astro. Cityscapes come to mind as well. I remember Chris Gampat at Phoblographer rave about shooting an Olympus and with an UWA lens held the shutter open for something absurd -- _up to 15 seconds_ -- and net sharp shots with the IBIS of that system. That's bonkers.
> 
> I find absurd 5+ second hand held shots a bit of a parlour trick. But lets admit _that it's a neat parlour trick_, and I'm stuck in dark cave-like interiors or nighttime city walkabouts sans flash all the time. I have lens IS on all four of my wider lenses I might use in those siutations (16-35 f/4L IS, 24-70 f/4L IS, 28 f/2.8 IS, 35 f/2 IS), but if IBIS + Lens IS can add to greater effect (esp. on wider FLs), color me interested with IBIS.
> 
> - A



IS or IBIS only compensate micro-shaking within some margin, when you shoot handheld for long enough (> 0.5 sec or so) you inevitably move your hands/body more than IS can compensate. Leaning against a wall etc. may help but I don't believe in the long exposures shot handheld, even at 16-24mm. That is, I've tried it myself and wasn't happy with the results. Better increase ISO, the additional noise is better than the motion blur.

But that's about long exposures at night. I wouldn't mind to have IBIS in general. It'd be very useful indeed.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 5, 2018)

sunnyboy said:


> Canon screw up! My advise is to stop buying of EF lens and sell away all your EF lens asap. The future is RF.




If that future lacks any (natively) small lenses and mandates focus by wire, the future can wait. 

(Eager to see what this system offers, don't get me wrong. But if I hear another 'the end times for EF are nigh'...)

- A


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> BTW: DOF is shallower on M43 at the same diastance as FF.



DoF is exactly the same in all lenses with the same focal length and aperture, no matter the sensor size. Exactly the same, not shallower, not deeper.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> DoF is exactly the same in all lenses with the same focal length and aperture, no matter the sensor size. Exactly the same, not shallower, not deeper.


Not true. M4/3 is shallower (by half) at the same distance to subject as FF for the same distance from the subject, focal length and aperture.:

5D Mark III / Circle of confusion = 0.03
Distance to subject: 15'
50mm f/2 lens
DOF = 3.34'

Olympus E-M5 / Circle of confusion = 0.015 / Crop factor = 2
Distance to subject: 15'
50mm f/2 lens
DOF = 1.66

"When you put photographs from two cameras next to each other to compare them, you are typically _looking at these images at the same size_. However, the image sensors that generated these two images may be very different in size. For example: the iPhone has a sensor that is less that one seventh the size of a 35mm full-frame DSLR in each of its dimensions. This means that the physical image that was projected onto the image plane of the iPhone was magnified by a factor more than seven times more than the DSLR’s image so that it could be displayed at the same size in the side-by-side comparison in this post.
This magnification magnifies everything – also imperfections and blurring in the projected image. *This means that, at the same distance from your subject, at the same physical focal length and aperture setting, a camera with a smaller sensor will have shallower depth of field than the one with a larger sensor.* The images will have the same perspective, but different fields of view (framing), so it is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. However, the result is real, and goes contrary to common knowledge and what one might have expected!" https://photographylife.com/sensor-size-perspective-and-depth-of-field

They are, however, the same DOF with the same framing when one doubles the distance of the M4/3 camera to the subject. To get the same DOF and framing as FF, I would have to move out to 30' with the M4/3 camera.

The math does not lie.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 5, 2018)

Jethro said:


> I'm still interested in the 'strategy announcement' part of it. Where Canon is going with mirrorless, where they see the EF / EF-S / EF-M mounts going, whether there is an actual calendar for lens (or even other FFM bodies) released. I know it isn't their usual way to do this, but it seems like this is a big thing for them - they could give out more information than expected.
> .



they could, they really should for their own sake, but they won't.

there will be a lot of the usual soft, squishy marketing babble, bare of any substantial, clear, solid information on Canon's product strategy for their different mount systems: EF, EF-S, EF-M, RF

there will also be no clear, official lens roadmap with timeframes for RF, otherwise it would have leaked by now (nikon z roadmap was out days before their official launch, along with Z6/Z7 product info and pictures).

there will be some Canon middle management muppets talking nicely and very vaguely about "innovation", "historic achievements" and "the future of photography", bla bla bla

there will also be no true grit journalists present grilling Canon muppets with real, not pre-approved questions re. strategy or missing features like IBIS. (there are no true grit journalists any more. only political correctness devoteees).

price: EOS R is a mirrorfree 6D II with 5D IV sensor, and Canon will price it as such = 2499 USD and higher in Euro and yet higher in Brexit Pounds.

episode 99 in the "innovative Canon" series.


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## Jethro (Sep 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Sure, but even a pro-level mirrorless isn't the end of EF. Canon wants to sell both SLRs and mirrorless at the same time.
> 
> Canon loves multiple premium price points. Folks with a lot of money might buy one of each.
> 
> - A


Sure, I didn't mean that - just that (if) this afternoon's announcement isn't a pro body, that one MUST be coming.


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## Fleetie (Sep 5, 2018)

herion said:


> Let's really go at it and discuss Canon's feature (or lack thereof) of super-luminal lens processing - you get a picture on the SD card *BEFORE* you mount the lens, aim the camera and hit the shutter button...
> 
> ... and perfectly focused...


Well, yes, but the new Endochronic Focusing feature will only operate if you keep topping up the camera's RTT cavity (accessed by screw cap) topped up with Resublimated ThioTimoline crystals.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Not true. M4/3 is shallower (by half) at the same distance to subject as FF for the same distance from the subject, focal length and aperture.:
> 
> 5D Mark III / Circle of confusion = 0.03
> Distance to subject: 15'
> ...



Yes it does make sense however it implies we *scale* the images to make the subject the same size visually (or angles of view). The math is in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field#DOF_vs._format_size


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## Ozarker (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yes it does make sense however it implies we *scale* the images to make the subject the same size visually (or angles of view). The math is in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field#DOF_vs._format_size



DOF is not the same for the same focal length, same f stop at same distance. It isn't. Scale the image or whatever you like, DOF is half as deep on M43. I don't want to argue. I wish the whole discussion would end. The original discussion had to do with lens speed. I do not want to carry this any further. My DOF calculator says DOF is half as deep for the same focal length, same f stop and same distance. That's it. Scaling the image in Photoshop does not change DOF. Only moving closer or further away or sensor size or f stop changes DOF.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Scaling the image in Photoshop does not change DOF.



It doesn't change DoF of the original image from the sensor. But when you scale the image down, you make some blurred points sharp enough, therefore you increase perceptual DoF.
Note that the circle of confusion depends on the target print size. So when you scale it up and down, you change CoC and therefore DoF


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I don't see what equivalent bokeh has to do with it,


What do people need _fast_ lenses for?

1. For shallow DoF, and/or
2. For pleasant bokeh, and/or
3. For decreased photon shot noise in dark conditions, and/or
4. To signal their own wealth to others.

For the first three goals, a M43 lens is equivalent to a 2 stops slower FF lens. For the 4th goal, a M43 lens doesn't qualify.



CanonFanBoy said:


> M43 50mm f/1.2 has shallower DOF at the same distance as FF 50mm f/1.2. Please see my previous calculations. Does that mean it has more blur?


First of all, it means a completely different scene, showing 4 times more area.

If you crop and enlarge the FF 50mm f/1.2 image so that it shows the same scene - and the same DoF - as the M43 50mm f/1.2 lens at the same distance, it would be equivalent (pixel pitch notwithstanding) to a FF 50mm f/1.2 _plus a 2x teleconverter_ - a 100/2.4 lens.



CanonFanBoy said:


> When the photo is taken at twice the distance with M43 the DOF is exactly the same. Is the blur the same?


The image is again not the same. If the distance is different, the perspective is different.



CanonFanBoy said:


> They are both still f/1.2. So I still have no idea what this has to do with the* f stop of the lens*.


Crop lenses of some f-stop are not practically equivalent to FF lenses of the same f-stop. They are practically equivalent to slower lenses.



CanonFanBoy said:


> I understand the IRIS is smaller on M43. I do. But they still shoot at the same exact speed in the same light. My gosh.


Lenses don't shoot. Photographers do. With a larger iris and a larger sensor, a photographer can afford to select a faster shutter speed.



CanonFanBoy said:


> "a FF .95 is physically impossible to make as an ordinary lens." So?


As cropped lenses are not equivalent to uncropped lenses, cropped sentences are not equivalent to uncropped sentences.



CanonFanBoy said:


> In question is not equivalency of photo appearance. In question is lens speed. Lens speed. Lens speed. Lens speed!


No. "Lens speed" was supposed to be _an answer_. But it didn't work, because the M43 lens speed is not practically equivalent to the same FF lens speed.



CanonFanBoy said:


> And what does it matter if I shoot a 50mm FF at 3" and then the M4/3 at 6 feet to get the same framing? DOF is exactly the same at that point! So is exposure! Good Lord!


So, it doesn't matter _to you_ that portraits taken at 3" are _ugly_ due to their comical perspective? You don't care about the actual picture, all you care about is "DOF" and "exposure"?


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The original discussion had to do with lens speed.


No, it wasn't. The original discussion was about lack of fast and light lenses _for the FF_. You made a mistake pointing to M43 lenses as if they were equivalent. They are not.


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## Mikehit (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> DoF is exactly the same in all lenses with the same focal length and aperture, no matter the sensor size. Exactly the same, not shallower, not deeper.



But you put a wider lens on the M43 to get the same framing (or change your distance).
Why on earth would you put the same focal length lens on a camera and not change position?

If you are focal length limited and find yourself using a 400mm lens on the MFT and on FF, then the image of the subject is the same physical size on both sensors. So if you want the same size lin(for example) in an A4 print the magnification from both sensors is identical. That is the ONLY situation where your claim is correct.


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## dolina (Sep 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Let me know how a more mature system makes your hands feel at the end of a day of shooting with big f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes.
> 
> - A


Consider the context of my statement. I am comparing a Sony full frame mirrorless system to a Canon full frame mirrorless system. The hand feel would be similar.


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## ahsanford (Sep 5, 2018)

dolina said:


> Consider the context of my statement. I am comparing a Sony full frame mirrorless system to a Canon full frame mirrorless system. The hand feel would be similar.




Sorry, no.

1) Vitally, the grip is both deeper and further from the mount than the Sony. It's not as comfy as a 5D I'm sure, but the EOS R should only have a fraction of the cramped finger problem that the A7 line has.

2) The grip is taller. No more dangling pinky nonsense for many of us.

We can hem and haw about specs, but on the basic form side of things, Canon has done a solid job as always. I think Canon got the basic shape / grip much better on the first try than Sony did in three.

I want a chunky grip mirrorless someday, but for a smaller body, this was thoughtfully done.

- A


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## GaryBlakePhoto (Sep 5, 2018)

Hey y'all,
CR's coverage of this has been wonderful all week so I thought I'd join.

The R seems like it's great, but I'm holding off for a professional version and third party lenses built for the system.

Honestly, I think the death of DSLRs are upon us.
Mirrorless just allows for too many advancements not to use it as the primary vehicle.
A 1/32000 shutter like in the A9. Almost total AF coverage. Magnified previews to check focus while shooting.

Give me an R-PRO with dual cards, Eye AF in Servo, and no weird FPS or 4K compromises and I'm in like flynn.


----------



## GaryBlakePhoto (Sep 5, 2018)

Also, what's up with samples?
I'd love to look at some full res ISO6400 to see what the deal is.


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## Ozarker (Sep 5, 2018)

Kit. said:


> No, it wasn't. The original discussion was about lack of fast and light lenses _for the FF_. You made a mistake pointing to M43 lenses as if they were equivalent. They are not.



Here we go. The M43 lenses rated at f/2 or whatever are the same speed as FF lenses at f/2 or whatever. That's it. That was my point and that fast and light mirrorless lenses are not unobtainable. Again, Canon 50mm f/1.4. Wow. Get lost, dude. No mistakes here. Your mistake is dragging this on, and on, and on. You were wrong.


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## Ozarker (Sep 5, 2018)

Kit. said:


> What do people need _fast_ lenses for?
> 
> 1. For shallow DoF, and/or
> 2. For pleasant bokeh, and/or
> ...



3' is just an example. Just figurative. To make things easy for the discussion. Don't you get the point? Nope. Lens speed being equal, dude. Why do you Jones for this so bad? You are wrong. Give it a rest. #5 People need fast lenses for low light conditions independent of Bokeh (Shutter speed!!!!). You forgot that one. An f/2 lens is an f/2 lens no matter what the sensor size. Period. Same shutter speed all else being equal. Duh! Small, fast, and light is not unobtainable for FF either. Good Lord. Your #4? "4. To signal their own wealth to others." Maybe for some, but I am very far from wealthy. I just manage money well.


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## Ozarker (Sep 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Sorry, no.
> 
> 1) Vitally, the grip is both deeper and further from the mount than the Sony. It's not as comfy as a 5D I'm sure, but the EOS R should only have a fraction of the cramped finger problem that the A7 line has.
> 
> ...


As usual, the graphics master. Looks far better with Canon to me.  Thanks for the terrific work!


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## PGSanta (Sep 5, 2018)

So, I currently have an A7III after selling off all of my Canon/Nikon gear last year. 

I have the 55 1.8, the 16-35 2.8 gm, and the 85 1.8. 

I’ve been pretty happy minus a few things. The ergos suck, and I don’t trust the weather sealing, so... I’m going to hedge my bets and pick up either the new R system, or the new Z to use along side my Sony. 

I was hoping Canon would come out with something awesome for landscape photographers, as that’s where I want the Z, or R to fill in for me, because I feel like Sony destroys both of these systems for event/portrait work. The EV, and eye AF claims Canon is making should be ridiculed. only AFS eye AF??? -6 with a 1.2??? It’s the worlds fastest AF only in single shot? That’s a lame claim. 

I need something with impressive durability, dual slots, and great IQ, and maybe the “high” end model will fill that niche. I’m hoping it does, because at this point the Z7 seems like the better body... but the lens line-up for Canon destroys what Nikon has planned. 

Decisions, decisions.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 5, 2018)

PGSanta said:


> So, I currently have an A7III ... and I don’t trust the weather sealing, so...



May I ask what you’re basing your lack of trust on?

I used an a7rii for two years along side my 5D3 and 1Dx (for a smaller amount of time) in a wide range of climates and weather (very cold, snow and rain, hot and humid, etc). The latter are more robust, sure, but the former never stopped working. There were situations where I didn’t want to be out shooting anymore so all the cameras went away, of course


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## PGSanta (Sep 5, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> May I ask what you’re basing your lack of trust on?
> 
> I used an a7rii for two years along side my 5D3 and 1Dx (for a smaller amount of time) in a wide range of climates and weather (very cold, snow and rain, hot and humid, etc). The latter are more robust, sure, but the former never stopped working. There were situations where I didn’t want to be out shooting anymore so all the cameras went away, of course



Completely anecdotal evidence, as well as YouTube.

I just don’t trust it for some of the conditions I’d like to use it in. For day hike stuff, I’m totally fine with it.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 5, 2018)

PGSanta said:


> Completely anecdotal evidence, as well as YouTube.
> 
> I just don’t trust it for some of the conditions I’d like to use it in. For day hike stuff, I’m totally fine with it.


I’ve looked for evidence of the Sony cameras failing due to real world weather conditions, and have largely come up short. My theory is that if they had inadequate environmental resistance, some noteworthy percentage would fail and there would be some discussion/record of it.

I may have inadequate web searching skills, but have come up short (usually I get directed to the “hose test,” nothing regarding real world failures due to weather).


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## ahsanford (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> As usual, the graphics master. Looks far better with Canon to me.  Thanks for the terrific work!




Appreciated, but not my work this time -- CR guy posted it a story on the main page.

(Other than in my day job, I generally don't do dimensions. I make crude overlays to make a point.)

- A


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## vjlex (Sep 6, 2018)

Is it too early to start talking about the next Canon FF mirrorless?  We still thinking another 6 months before hearing anything about the 5D4/5DS equivalent R, or is there really a chance that this one was the higher echelon FF MILC offering? I'm so confused about what to do.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Sep 6, 2018)

Just keep buying cameras! Then when another one comes out be sure to buy that one too...


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## Durf (Sep 6, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Just keep buying cameras! Then when another one comes out be sure to buy that one too...



I'm going to buy 3 of these EOS R's, one for each mount (I hate changing mounts!)


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## Don Haines (Sep 6, 2018)

shunsai said:


> Is it too early to start talking about the next Canon FF mirrorless?  We still thinking another 6 months before hearing anything about the 5D4/5DS equivalent R, or is there really a chance that this one was the higher echelon FF MILC offering? I'm so confused about what to do.



Put it like this.... If someone stole all my camera gear and the insurance paid up, I would be over at my local camera store tomorrow and this is what I would get:

5D IV body
EF 16-35 F4.0
EF 24-70 F4.0
EF 70-200 F4.0 (the new one)
Tamron 150-600 G2

None of those lenses are available for the R, except the RF 24-70, which is F2.0 and considerably heavier that the EF F4.0 version...

EF is going to be around for a long long time, and so are mirrored cameras.... There is a market for them and they sell well.
RF will take several years to build up it's lens portfolio, and it should also be around for a long time.

This is not a situation where Canon has to decide to sell one or the other. They will sell both because both means more revenue that just picking one.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 6, 2018)

shunsai said:


> Is it too early to start talking about the next Canon FF mirrorless?  We still thinking another 6 months before hearing anything about the 5D4/5DS equivalent R, or is there really a chance that this one was the higher echelon FF MILC offering? I'm so confused about what to do.


I watched the intro videos with Rudy Winston and he mentioned that this was the 'mid range' model. That implies there will be one lower specced and one higher specced than this one.


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## vjlex (Sep 6, 2018)

Aussie shooter said:


> I watched the intro videos with Rudy Winston and he mentioned that this was the 'mid range' model. That implies there will be one lower specced and one higher specced than this one.


I watched the video before work this morning, but I must've missed that point. I'll have to watch it again.


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## dolina (Sep 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Sorry, no.
> 
> 1) Vitally, the grip is both deeper and further from the mount than the Sony. It's not as comfy as a 5D I'm sure, but the EOS R should only have a fraction of the cramped finger problem that the A7 line has.
> 
> ...


then it is subjective to the photographer's hand then.

I am looking at it from system maturity of native lenses and other accessories. I am sure EF lens will not function as well as RF lenses.


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## Cthulhu (Sep 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> You call it a crippled 5D4 sans mirror. Others might call it a 5D4 with completely silent shooting, a tilty-flippy, the ability to use manual focus glass through the viewfinder at a rumored price of $2k.
> 
> For the umpteenth time, we know EF lenses will work well. See how mirrorless with DPAF + adaptor does (this is just one example -- this forum is full of folks who have happily adapted their EF glass on to EOS M):
> 
> ...



1- you don't know how it will perform because you never used it.

2- I have an eos m5 and sure you can get it to focus fast with a wide aperture and a huge focus point, but it still tracks like crap and you'll continually have a hard time with fine focus, specially with the laggy touch screen and no joystick. Might work ok if you have tiny fingers.


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## Talys (Sep 7, 2018)

Cthulhu said:


> 1- you don't know how it will perform because you never used it.
> 
> 2- I have an eos m5 and sure you can get it to focus fast with a wide aperture and a huge focus point, but it still tracks like crap and you'll continually have a hard time with fine focus, specially with the laggy touch screen and no joystick. Might work ok if you have tiny fingers.



We know that EF performs well with an adapter, because there have now been several reviewers who have seen it in action and say that it works like native lens.

Second, AF speed and AF tracking are two totally different things. Historically, Canon DPAF has been great at the former, and compared to some other cameras, Canon bodies are criticized for being relatively poor at the latter. As a nature photographer who doesn't care about making videos, keeping focus on a subject to get more shots is something I'll do by keeping the camera pointed at the subject; therefore AF speed is infinitely more important to me than subject tracking. But it just goes to show you that you can't have it all in one camera, at least not today. By the time you can have everything you want today in a single camera body, there will be new stuff that will be, infuriatingly, not in the body that you really want to buy.


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## Talys (Sep 7, 2018)

dolina said:


> then it is subjective to the photographer's hand then.
> 
> I am looking at it from system maturity of native lenses and other accessories. I am sure EF lens will not function as well as RF lenses.


Except, this is not what people who have used EF on the EOS R with an adapter actually say. They've said that it works like a native mount lens. And really, there's absolutely no technical reason that it can't when Canon is designing the body and adapter specifically so that they can be completely compatible. Also, EF lenses work really well on M series cameras, with an adapter.


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## Dominique hj (Sep 7, 2018)

merci ça et j'aime beaucoup ça ressemble à un reflex et ça a l'air d'être bien en photo quand la vidéo est juste un plus que je ne me secoue pas souvent!


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 7, 2018)

Tony & Chelsea Northrup - did anyone view the feedback they got from their early "review" of the EOS R? Talk about fanboys of Sony and also Nikon as being their main audience; and angered - it's astounding how they were chastised. I have this theory that the North American population have abandoned traditional religion but need to express their religious fervour, be it politics or in this case Camera loyalty! 

It's just a camera and it's just slightly ahead/behind the others and I have "faith" that Canon is not *******. I may just move on this camera but I'll wait to see what the next couple mirrorless offerings are.

I also value speed of focus and have gotten used to 1 series features, some of which are now showing up in the R. While the ergonomics might be a frustration, it'll only be an initial one, I think. My only real concern with the 1DX is weight much more than size and a good grip is a must on a smaller camera but Canon knows that.

Jack


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## wyotex43n (Sep 7, 2018)

Does the new R have an interval timer? I can't seem to find any mention of it but maybe I am overlooking it.


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## Cthulhu (Sep 7, 2018)

Talys said:


> We know that EF performs well with an adapter, because there have now been several reviewers who have seen it in action and say that it works like native lens.
> 
> Second, AF speed and AF tracking are two totally different things. Historically, Canon DPAF has been great at the former, and compared to some other cameras, Canon bodies are criticized for being relatively poor at the latter. As a nature photographer who doesn't care about making videos, keeping focus on a subject to get more shots is something I'll do by keeping the camera pointed at the subject; therefore AF speed is infinitely more important to me than subject tracking. But it just goes to show you that you can't have it all in one camera, at least not today. By the time you can have everything you want today in a single camera body, there will be new stuff that will be, infuriatingly, not in the body that you really want to buy.




I have an eos m and no matter how well I keep pointing the camera at the subject, if it moves at slow to moderate speeds than I know only one or two shots in a burst will have the focus where it's supposed to. It's practically useless for birds in flight unless you want to use a single point at center frame and very deep DOF. I'm sure someone is much better at it than me, but even entry level rebel bodies do better.


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## Viggo (Sep 7, 2018)

Man, I can’t get that 50 out of my head, I’m thinking the 1dx2 and 85 L IS will have to go to get myself an R with the new 50... I don’t do much action shooting anymore and that 50 got me excited like the 35 L II did at launch... knowing me, that’s it


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## tron (Sep 7, 2018)

Nothing more exciting tnan the EF85mm 1.4L lS  

Of course this is subjective. Anything is exciting if it gets us the photos we like!


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## fullstop (Sep 7, 2018)

Talys said:


> Except, this is not what people who have used EF on the EOS R with an adapter actually say. They've said that it works like a native mount lens. And really, there's absolutely no technical reason that it can't when Canon is designing the body and adapter specifically so that they can be completely compatible.



ef lenses are compatible and work well. but not equal to RF lenses, eg any functionality dependent on that 12 pin communication interface/bandwidth or built-into lens gyrosensor drive for "enhanced IS", and new AF drives (eg thin-type nano usm/Linear EM drives) for more advanced AF functionality etc. 

RF lenses are designed for performance and functionality beyond EF lenses' legacy limitations.


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## fullstop (Sep 7, 2018)

i would have found a more compact body with EOS R specs without all video recording stuff and at a consequently lower price exciting. plus f/1.8 primes lenses and f/4 zooms that are smaller, lighter, decent IQ and significantly less expensive. i understand that some drool over fast glass and are willi g to pay for it and lug it around. i am not.


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## Talys (Sep 7, 2018)

fullstop said:


> ef lenses are compatible and work well. but not equal to RF lenses, eg any functionality dependent on that 12 pin communication interface/bandwidth or built-into lens gyrosensor drive for "enhanced IS", and new AF drives (eg thin-type nano usm/Linear EM drives) for more advanced AF functionality etc.
> 
> RF lenses are designed for performance and functionality beyond EF lenses' legacy limitations.



Sure, it's totally fair to say that RF brings some new stuff that EF never had, and won't ever have. But if an EF lens on an EOS R works as well as an EF lens on a DSLR EOS, then one should not criticize the RF mount or EF to RF at is adapter's technical ability, because if Canon had made their first mirrorless an EF, it wouldn't have that new stuff either. In other words, the EF lenses will work as well as *the lenses* were designed to work.

I would be really surprised if the lens itself provided core functionality that I thought was must-have, mostly because I didn't fall in love with Sony glass, even the high end GM lenses. But we'll see, and obviously, a lot of it is also what Canon decides to make. If they make more interesting stuff like the 28-70/2, that would sure help nudge me to spending money -- not necessarily because I want RF features, but because I want the optics, and that's the only way I can get them.

And I guess, finally, the verdict is not in yet as to whether native RF lenses are in any way superior to EF lenses in the basic tasks, for example, autofocus speed -- or if the new stuff those extra pins offer is simply for new features. If it's the latter, then the question becomes, a simple question of for lens X is it worth switching? At least for the perceivable future, my DSLRs aren't going anywhere, so the EF lenses can work on both systems (if I buy an EOS R, but who am I kidding, if I don't buy this one, it's only because I'm holding out for the next, "more pro" model), so are the RF benefits, one of which would be no adapter, be worth that.


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## fullstop (Sep 7, 2018)

i agree with most of your thoughts on this. "adapter angst" was never an issue for me. i would (and will not) sell my EF glass. but i will be very careful before i buy new glass. those 12-pins on the RF mount and RF lenses are there for a reason. 

even on the "somewhat pedestrian" EOS R, RF lenses already have functional advantages (aside from optical considerations) - eg "enhanced IS" based on gyro-sensor(s) in RF lenses (not in EF lenses) that enable "enhanced IS" functionaily (5 stops). possible AF performance advantages not really tested yet. maybe they will only become visible/ tangible/significant with future, higher-end, faster fps "pro" R bodies.

i will be very careful about buying new EF glass until things become clearer. Canon is doing themselves a disservice by not publishing a clear RF lens roadmap. so we dont know what RF lenses to expect over the next 2 years or so. and in that timeframe i will neither buy RF glass (not interested in the initial 4 lenses exceot 24-105) nor EF lenses. i will also hold off buying EOS R, although its stills shooting specs are pretty much in line with my needs/use cases. until i see, whether there will also be a smaller body available and/or a higher-end one that is worth the price fifference to me. abd jntil i see whether Canon intends to also make moderately fast, smaller, less expensive non-L RF lenses that i am after, or not. 

so, no clear communication on future plans for R cameras and RF lenses is ... stupid, Canon! ;-)


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 7, 2018)

Once again all we learn from all the discussions is how diverse photography is and how impossible it is to satisfy everyone's perceived needs! Meanwhile we've all got amazing gear even if it's in the lower price bracket. In other words I have no excuse for not producing amazing photos ... unless it's incompetence.

Since I sold the 6D with the intention of buying the 6D2 but didn't I have to admit that the R should fit the bill for a 2nd body. But, then I'd probably be ogling that 50 1.2 or the F2 zoom.

Jack


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## Durf (Sep 7, 2018)

Talys said:


> Sure, it's totally fair to say that RF brings some new stuff that EF never had, and won't ever have. But if an EF lens on an EOS R works as well as an EF lens on a DSLR EOS, then one should not criticize the RF mount or EF to RF at is adapter's technical ability, because if Canon had made their first mirrorless an EF, it wouldn't have that new stuff either. In other words, the EF lenses will work as well as *the lenses* were designed to work.
> 
> I would be really surprised if the lens itself provided core functionality that I thought was must-have, mostly because I didn't fall in love with Sony glass, even the high end GM lenses. But we'll see, and obviously, a lot of it is also what Canon decides to make. If they make more interesting stuff like the 28-70/2, that would sure help nudge me to spending money -- not necessarily because I want RF features, but because I want the optics, and that's the only way I can get them.
> 
> And I guess, finally, the verdict is not in yet as to whether native RF lenses are in any way superior to EF lenses in the basic tasks, for example, autofocus speed -- or if the new stuff those extra pins offer is simply for new features. If it's the latter, then the question becomes, a simple question of for lens X is it worth switching? At least for the perceivable future, my DSLRs aren't going anywhere, so the EF lenses can work on both systems (if I buy an EOS R, but who am I kidding, if I don't buy this one, it's only because I'm holding out for the next, "more pro" model), so are the RF benefits, one of which would be no adapter, be worth that.


 
I personally don't think you're gonna have to wait too long for a pro version R Camera, something that'll likely rival or exceed an A9 .....perhaps there will be one released before next Easter (my prediction).
The 28-70 f2 and 50 f1.2 are beasts and IMO very pro lenses. Canon introducing these two lenses now is telling me to get ready for a higher end Pro FF R Camera. For a RF Lens pro kit they are showing us with these 2 beast lenses that they are serious.
I'm expecting to be released along with their pro R Camera a couple more high quality and VERY expensive RF lenses, probably like a longer range zoom and perhaps a wild and crazy 85mm f/1.2.......they might even toss in an ultra wide angle too.
I highly doubt it, but, it's possible that this Flagship pro EOS-R Camera about ready now to hit the market around Christmas or even sooner.
I think Canon is upping their game and is about to bust a major move in the mirrorless market! This EOS-R and the 4 RF lenses are a good sign they are serious.


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## Jethro (Sep 8, 2018)

Durf said:


> I it's possible that this Flagship pro EOS-R Camera about ready now to hit the market around Christmas or even sooner.


I doubt we will see it before Xmas, because that might stop a lot of 'early adopters' from snapping up the first EOS-R. A more typical modus operandi would be to let Xmas sales come and go, and then announce it, along with a bunch of new lenses. Feb / March 2019?


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## Durf (Sep 8, 2018)

Jethro said:


> I doubt we will see it before Xmas, because that might stop a lot of 'early adopters' from snapping up the first EOS-R. A more typical modus operandi would be to let Xmas sales come and go, and then announce it, along with a bunch of new lenses. Feb / March 2019?



Probably so, but ya never know.....I think the flagship pro will be in another class of its own though and be much more expensive than this first model, thus targeting a completely different group/class of spenders. 
They could bring it out right before Christmas and also have a Christmas sale on the EOS-R and rake in a bunch of bucks to finish out the 4th quarter of 2018 with some good numbers....


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## dak723 (Sep 8, 2018)

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but just saw on a CameraLabs video that the R's shutter curtains close when the camera is turned off so that when you change lenses, the sensor is NOT exposed, thus minimizing the risk of dust (or something else) falling on the sensor during lens changes. I know for most of the "techies" this is probably very boring, but it is feature that will be very welcome to everybody using the camara who has ever had increased dust issues with mirrorless.


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## Durf (Sep 8, 2018)

dak723 said:


> Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but just saw on a CameraLabs video that the R's shutter curtains close when the camera is turned off so that when you change lenses, the sensor is NOT exposed, thus minimizing the risk of dust (or something else) falling on the sensor during lens changes. I know for most of the "techies" this is probably very boring, but it is feature that will be very welcome to everybody using the camara who has ever had increased dust issues with mirrorless.



It's little details like this that makes Canon #1 and their cameras still strong and taking pictures even when they are ten or twenty yrs old. 

But the talking heads and complainers over-look this VERY important feature because all they can think of is 4k and dual card slots.....


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## Jethro (Sep 8, 2018)

Durf said:


> Probably so, but ya never know.....I think the flagship pro will be in another class of its own though and be much more expensive than this first model, thus targeting a completely different group/class of spenders.
> They could bring it out right before Christmas and also have a Christmas sale on the EOS-R and rake in a bunch of bucks to finish out the 4th quarter of 2018 with some good numbers....


Ain't no sales on the EOS R this side of Xmas brother!


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## padam (Sep 8, 2018)

Durf said:


> I personally don't think you're gonna have to wait too long for a pro version R Camera, something that'll likely rival or exceed an A9 .....perhaps there will be one released before next Easter (my prediction).
> The 28-70 f2 and 50 f1.2 are beasts and IMO very pro lenses. Canon introducing these two lenses now is telling me to get ready for a higher end Pro FF R Camera. For a RF Lens pro kit they are showing us with these 2 beast lenses that they are serious.
> I'm expecting to be released along with their pro R Camera a couple more high quality and VERY expensive RF lenses, probably like a longer range zoom and perhaps a wild and crazy 85mm f/1.2.......they might even toss in an ultra wide angle too.
> I highly doubt it, but, it's possible that this Flagship pro EOS-R Camera about ready now to hit the market around Christmas or even sooner.
> I think Canon is upping their game and is about to bust a major move in the mirrorless market! This EOS-R and the 4 RF lenses are a good sign they are serious.


I think it really doesn't happen that quickly, their main focus at this moment is still EF, four lenses is really not that much to promote a new flagship model and they are still coming out with new super telephotos (especially destined for Pro bodies with EF-mount).

We may see a higher-end R model with the updated version of the 1DX II sensor, it could be close to A9 money, and it might get two card slots, but it won't be the ultimate flagship, matching _Sony on paper_ is generally an unrealistic expectation. I actually expect a cheaper model more for now and one made for high-resolution as well because of those lenses you've mentioned.

So I think the next generation of cameras (sensors) will kickstart with the 1DX Mark III just like we saw with the II in about 2020, possibly with a hybrid viewfinder, but after that the RF mirrorless will start to be in the spotlight more and more as there are more lenses that are available.


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## padam (Sep 8, 2018)

I just rephrased it into a poll question, because I wonder:
Would you pay over 4000$ for an EOS R-X with a slightly bigger 20MP body with dual card slots (maybe a new battery), 4k (UHD) 60p 1.5x crop, 1080p 120fps with about 10fps in stills with AF-C and mechanical stutter?
Would you pay 3000$ for an EOS Rs with the exact same body and everyhing (no dual cards) 60 megapixels(like a M50 sensor expanded to FF), but worse video?


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## Durf (Sep 8, 2018)

Jethro said:


> Ain't no sales on the EOS R this side of Xmas brother!



Yes, Christmas is a bit soon, but I am optomistic and feel we won't have to wait until September 2019 to see Canon move more on this R Series. I'm guessing by next Easter we will see some new RF lenses and probably a higher end R camera.


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## BillB (Sep 8, 2018)

Durf said:


> It's little details like this that makes Canon #1 and their cameras still strong and taking pictures even when they are ten or twenty yrs old.
> 
> But the talking heads and complainers over-look this VERY important feature because all they can think of is 4k and dual card slots.....


Well, all some of them think of is Sony good, Canon DOA.


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## Viggo (Sep 8, 2018)

Does anyone know if you can remove Shooting Modes you never use, like on the 1-series? Super happy if someone can answer this with certainty.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 8, 2018)

Viggo said:


> Does anyone know if you can remove Shooting Modes you never use, like on the 1-series?



Yes, someone knows. 

They probably don’t post here, though


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Sep 8, 2018)

This may very well be the "Flagship" EOS R. 

What makes anyone think that Canon has the ability to build a better mirrorless than this in the near future? As far as we know it has their best sensor, best EVF, best touch Tilty/Flippy, best processor, card slot, DPAF etc. Like it or not, this is state of the art Canon mirrorless. What else do they have which they didn't include? A second card slot? It's Canon we're talking about so I wouldn't expect anything better than this for a while.


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## Viggo (Sep 8, 2018)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> This may very well be the "Flagship" EOS R.
> 
> What makes anyone think that Canon has the ability to build a better mirrorless than this in the near future? As far as we know it has their best sensor, best EVF, best touch Tilty/Flippy, best processor, card slot, DPAF etc. Like it or not, this is state of the art Canon mirrorless. What else do they have which they didn't include? A second card slot? It's Canon we're talking about so I wouldn't expect anything better than this for a while.



So, you work for Sony and came here to troll?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 8, 2018)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> This may very well be the "Flagship" EOS R.


Yep. Just like the first EOS M was the flagship APS-C MILC. You remember the fisrt M, right? A top-selling camera in the largest global market for MILCs, after its launch Sony deprioritized APS-C MILCs. The EOS R will probably be like that.


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## BillB (Sep 8, 2018)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> This may very well be the "Flagship" EOS R.
> 
> What makes anyone think that Canon has the ability to build a better mirrorless than this in the near future? As far as we know it has their best sensor, best EVF, best touch Tilty/Flippy, best processor, card slot, DPAF etc. Like it or not, this is state of the art Canon mirrorless. What else do they have which they didn't include? A second card slot? It's Canon we're talking about so I wouldn't expect anything better than this for a while.


Well, you are right. No new sensor no new camera. So a big question is how close they are to a new sensor. If Canon does put something out at a higher price point, it will have a new sensor in it, and maybe a pair of Digics. The Tilty/Flippy world likely be the same, and there might or might not be upgrades to the EVF, the touchscreen interface, and DPAF. There might also be a larger body. Timing? Depends on where they are on the sensor.


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## ScottO (Sep 8, 2018)

Make no mistake the RF 50 F1.2 and 28-70 F2 are statement pieces reflecting what is to come. If you listen to cannon it's pretty clear this is just an opening salvo. With the EOS R I see the camera will do 80 to 90% of what most still photographers want or at least need. Would I have liked two cards slots sure IBIS would've been welcome but neither is a dealbreaker. If I listen to some I would have to wonder how I ever manage to take meaningful images with a match needle SLR and a 500 or 600MM manual focus Lens with no image stabilization and low ASA film.

As for me I'm excited about the future of the RF Mount. I'm on my suppliers pre-preorder list for a kit, a second body, both of the advanced adapters the 28- 70 F2. Can't wait to be able to use neutral density filters with my 11- 24. Complain about what it doesn't have if you like that's fine with me however I will be out making the most of what I have and knowing there is much to come.


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## Keith_Reeder (Sep 8, 2018)

dak723 said:


> Olympus has at least two lenses now with lens IS - the 12-100mm and the 300mm PRO. The Olympus IBIS plus IS blows away every other image stabilization that I have used including Sony both for video and stills. Multi-second hand held exposures are possible.


Both relatively short lenses though - and interesting, isn't it, that even with IBIS in their cameras, Olympus have realised that in-lens IS is worth having after all.


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## Durf (Sep 8, 2018)

ScottO said:


> *Make no mistake the RF 50 F1.2 and 28-70 F2 are statement pieces reflecting what is to come.* If you listen to cannon it's pretty clear this is just an opening salvo. With the EOS R I see the camera will do 80 to 90% of what most still photographers want or at least need. Would I have liked two cards slots sure IBIS would've been welcome but neither is a dealbreaker. If I listen to some I would have to wonder how I ever manage to take meaningful images with a match needle SLR and a 500 or 600MM manual focus Lens with no image stabilization and low ASA film.
> 
> As for me I'm excited about the future of the RF Mount. I'm on my suppliers pre-preorder list for a kit, a second body, both of the advanced adapters the 28- 70 F2. Can't wait to be able to use neutral density filters with my 11- 24. Complain about what it doesn't have if you like that's fine with me however I will be out making the most of what I have and knowing there is much to come.



I totally agree.

For the last several years I haven't even been interested in any of the FF Mirrorless Cameras on the market up until this EOS-R Camera. The flip screen and nice grip caught my eye. I have several vintage lenses and have been waiting for a long time for Canon to come out with a FF high end type of camera with IBIS so I have a Canon body for all my vintage lenses......Reckon I'll keep waiting and keep using my current non stabilized cameras to use my vintage glass on.

I seriously may of bought this camera if it had a good IBIS system built in just to shoot my vintage glass on. Canon likely will sell one less EOS-R camera for not putting IBIS in it for me


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## koenkooi (Sep 8, 2018)

padam said:


> I just rephrased it into a poll question, because I wonder:
> Would you pay over 4000$ for an EOS R-X with a slightly bigger 20MP body with dual card slots (maybe a new battery), 4k (UHD) 60p 1.5x crop, 1080p 120fps with about 10fps in stills with AF-C and mechanical stutter?
> Would you pay 3000$ for an EOS Rs with the exact same body and everyhing (no dual cards) 60 megapixels(like a M50 sensor expanded to FF), but worse video?



And EOS R with 50+ megapixels is exactly what I'm looking for and I would pay 5DSR money for that (€3100 currently). I want a wider view for my MP-E 65mm compared to the EOS M it's currently on and a high framerate view with exposure simulation. Big wasps and hornets are slightly too big for the APS-C frame, but would fit on a full frame sensor, but I don't want to loose resolution when shooting smaller things like jumping spiders and cropping in post. So your theoretical Rs is the camera of my dreams, currently


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## padam (Sep 8, 2018)

koenkooi said:


> And EOS R with 50+ megapixels is exactly what I'm looking for and I would pay 5DSR money for that (€3100 currently). I want a wider view for my MP-E 65mm compared to the EOS M it's currently on and a high framerate view with exposure simulation. Big wasps and hornets are slightly too big for the APS-C frame, but would fit on a full frame sensor, but I don't want to loose resolution when shooting smaller things like jumping spiders and cropping in post. So your theoretical Rs is the camera of my dreams, currently



At least two of these RF lenses are made for very high resolution, that's a given.

Yes, all just a theory, but I think a 5DsR Mark II will come first in 2019 (looking at the timeline it is very much due to replacement), and this with the same sensor will come some time after that, but it won't be the second EOS R model because it is more of a speciality, rather something from other two variants or both (higher or/and lower level), so maybe still not coming in the near future.

By the way, Canon could make the EOS M system way, way more useful with a high quality, fully functional focal reducer (Speed Booster) EF-M to EF adapter, that gives you that wider field of view and adding in an extra stop of light while keeping all the functions, etc.
But that would instantly make the full-frame a bit less attractive, so they only do it if they feel like reviving the EOS M system. So it's a neat thing to have as a playable card.

What they've done instead is patented an EF-mount video camera with a built-in switchable focal reducer, I think this will be for video to get a wider, closer to FF field of view with a Super 35mm sensor. I just wonder if they ever going to release it, and how much it will cost.


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## Viggo (Sep 10, 2018)

Does anyone know if one can limit shutter speed in Av mode on the R? Now manual to DL yet?


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## Viggo (Sep 11, 2018)

I asked Mr. Carnathan if the R included shutter speed range adjustment for setting highest and lowest speeds in Av with auto iso, and it does ineed have it! I’m so relieved 

He thought there was a function to remove the Modes I don’t use, but he couldn’t find it now, so not entirely sure it can be done or not, yet..


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## jolyonralph (Sep 21, 2018)

Viggo said:


> I asked Mr. Carnathan if the R included shutter speed range adjustment for setting highest and lowest speeds in Av with auto iso, and it does ineed have it! I’m so relieved
> 
> He thought there was a function to remove the Modes I don’t use, but he couldn’t find it now, so not entirely sure it can be done or not, yet..




But does it have an option to do this relative to focal length and to set independently for each lens?


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## Viggo (Sep 21, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> But does it have an option to do this relative to focal length and to set independently for each lens?



It also has the normal “Safety shift” afaik, but I never use that, I’m much more concerned about motion blur of the subject, not my shaking, as both those require very fast shutters lol..


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## jd7 (Nov 27, 2018)

Septem Darnay said:


> I've just checked the 6dii manual and according to it the servo-AF continuous shooting speed is 4fps (Page 307, Servo AF for Moving Subjects), One Shot AF is 6.5 FPS, both are lower than EOS R's spec respectively.


Not sure if anyone has already commented on this, but that is true only if you are talking about the 6DII in live view. The 6DII in normal DSLR shooting gets 6.5 fps with servo-AF continuous shooting. See the 6DII manual at p112 and p156.


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## chrysoberyl (Dec 13, 2018)

Does the R have a 'focus shift' feature to facilitate stacking?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 13, 2018)

chrysoberyl said:


> Does the R have a 'focus shift' feature to facilitate stacking?


No.

It does have dual pixel raw, and the two images (from each of the pixel halves) can be extracted and combined with the finished image to give more DR, but insignificant additional depth of field.


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## chrysoberyl (Dec 13, 2018)

Thank you. I've wanted to get into focus stacking, but it looks quite tedious and error-prone, and I'd rather spend my time taking photos, rather than spending hours post-processing.


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## deleteme (Dec 17, 2018)

chrysoberyl said:


> Thank you. I've wanted to get into focus stacking, but it looks quite tedious and error-prone, and I'd rather spend my time taking photos, rather than spending hours post-processing.


If you want to automate focus stacking you may want to look at CamRanger as it has a focus stacking feature. It also supports the R. Stacking is not that hard as the apps do a fairly good job and even PS (which I use) has rarely given me anything other than the most minor of cleanups.


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