# 3rd Party L-Brackets made in China reliable enough?



## ZoeEnPhos (Jan 22, 2016)

Dear Forum Readers/Contributors,


I hope you are all fine!

*May I ask about purchasing L-Bracket from the Chinese E-Bay sellers?*


The Chinese sellers on E-Bay is offering L-Brackets from Canon EOS 5D Mark III w/o battery grip,
for almost hilariously cheap low prices with 
even free international shipping,
when compared to for example the L-Bracket from RRS and other known good quality and
reliable brands who is offering the same type of L-Brackets.

However I am a bit reluctant to order these Chinese manufactured L-Brackets,
for my *Canon EOS 5D Mark III*.


So I would very much appreciate,
if here are anyone who actually is fully trusting these very low priced 
Chinese produced L-Brackets,
for your Canon DSLR together with maybe a bit heavier lens (for example - 
I am using for example, [/size]Canon TS-E24mm f/3.5L II and together with the 5D Mark III body and together this combination weighs almost 2 kg, so I need 
to have a good andalso a reliable L-Bracket to keep this combination securely without breaking on my ballhead, don´t you think?


So please if anyone have any practical information/experiences,
and if you could give me some valuable information, IF I can trustworthy purchase these very 
low priced (and in fact looking like normal L-Brackets) L-Brackets, for serious use, also in cold sub-zero climate like it is here now in Sweden about - 15 C °.[size=78%]
Thank you so very much for sharing something from your own experiences and for your input about these topic, because I have never used a L-Bracket,
but I have now a need because of my low-profile-ballhead, to make it more ease to keep the 
same position of the ball head if needed a vertical position of the camera body. (Using RRS BH-40 w/ B2 AS II Clamp / Sirui XB-52).


Best Regards,
Charl (Sweden)


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## dolina (Jan 22, 2016)

I'd buy it if it works out for you.


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## JMZawodny (Jan 22, 2016)

Can you provide a link to an example? If it is ridiculously low price, get one and post a review back here.


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## TeT (Jan 22, 2016)

Weight of item in comparison to the RRS for materials comparison (should be available in RRS specs?) and construction of item (machined v cast) should give you an idea of how well it will hold up v the RRS. 

It is eBay so you can return it if the quality is rotten...


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## 1982chris911 (Jan 22, 2016)

Why place a 4500-6500 USD lens and cam combo on sth. you have doubt if your max saving is about 120 USD ???


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## sootzzs (Jan 22, 2016)

1982chris911 said:


> Why place a 4500-6500 USD lens and cam combo on sth. you have doubt if your max saving is about 120 USD ???



I agree. I've tried few and usually they are badly machined and not trustworthy beyond very light load. There is also a good chance of damaging your camera tripod thread.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 22, 2016)

With Chinese units, I'd not get one from ebay, but rather pay a few dollars more for Amazon Prime.

This one fits well, has a good fit and finish and is made from aircraft grade heat treated aluminum. There are two versions, a universal fit and a custom 5D MK III fit. Get the custom one, you will see bad feedback from those who bought the universal and expected a custom fit.


There is also a version for use with a grip. In a situation like that, you may have a issue with a grip from company A and a plate from company B.

http://www.amazon.com/Neewer%C2%AE-Aluminum-Release-L-Plate-Compatible/dp/B00LO1C11U/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453487750&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=5D+MK+III+l+bracket


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## crank47 (Jan 22, 2016)

Hello,

I have an L-bracket from ebay, this one to be exact:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151828513482?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I wouldn't use it that much so I didn't want to invest in a RRS or Kirk model, took the risk and put an order on the china one. It's not a very precise fit, it has a 1-2mm gap on the sides where it surrounds the grip, don't know if it has to be like that or not but not a big deal. Overall I like it a lot for the cost, it's surprisingly well machined, looks and functions awesome. 

In my case I did had to sand down the edges of the mounts a little to work on my head, but that's my arca clamp fault not the plate itself.

If you want, I can post some pictures of it.


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## kaswindell (Jan 22, 2016)

Very often it is a case of you get what you pay for. There is a reason Canon lenses cost more than cheap Chinese knockoffs. There is a reason RRS products cost more than what you find on Ebay. I guess it comes down to one question...

Do you feel lucky today? Well do ya?


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## kaihp (Jan 22, 2016)

kaswindell said:


> Very often it is a case of you get what you pay for. There is a reason Canon lenses cost more than cheap Chinese knockoffs. There is a reason RRS products cost more than what you find on Ebay. I guess it comes down to one question...
> 
> Do you feel lucky today? Well do ya?



Dear gents, please do not engage in flinging FUD in all directions.

While quite some Chinese manufacturers do have a bad reputation for shoddy quality (and for good reason), a lot of high quality parts and products are manufactured in China. Including the iPhone and quite a lot of tablets, laptops and PC components.

There are a couple of reasons why a Chinese manufacturer can produce something less expensive than, say, an US manufacturer:
- Cost of materials are lower in China than in the US
- Cost of labor is lower in China than in the US
- Cost of energy is lower in China than in the US
- Many Chinese manufacturers are willing to manufacture and sell at a lower gross margins than US companies

The same type of high-grade Aluminum used by RRS is fully available to a Chinese manufacturer. The same type of milling machines etc are fully available to a Chinese manufacturer as well.

In short, there is zero reason why a Chinese manufacturer cannot make the same quality level product as a US based company. That they may choose to make a lower-quality product (and often they do) is another story.

As for L-brackets for a 5D3, I purchased two different ones while I lived in China. The first one was made out of two billets of Aluninum that was adjoined with a (long) hex-head screw. I couldn't get it to stop wiggling in the screw joint, so I stopped using it. I then purchased the Benro LPC5DIII, which is made of a single piece of milled Aluminum. I have not found any problems with it, no crossing of threads, no nothing.
Some connoisseurs may find faults with it and decide to use another brand. They're welcome.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 22, 2016)

kaihp said:


> kaswindell said:
> 
> 
> > Very often it is a case of you get what you pay for. There is a reason Canon lenses cost more than cheap Chinese knockoffs. There is a reason RRS products cost more than what you find on Ebay. I guess it comes down to one question...
> ...



Yes, I import products for my business from China. The big issue is finding those who take care in manufacturing. The second is checking to see that they do not suddenly start producing shoddy quality. I cannot afford to have QA people in the plants in China, so I sometimes have to change suppliers.

The Ebay issue is that I generally have no idea as to where the items actually come from. Those with a name brand sold on Amazon have to fear poor reviews when they falter. A bunch of poor reviews can really hurt sales, so its a big stick.


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## RGF (Jan 22, 2016)

TeT said:


> Weight of item in comparison to the RRS for materials comparison (should be available in RRS specs?) and construction of item (machined v cast) should give you an idea of how well it will hold up v the RRS.
> 
> It is eBay so you can return it if the quality is rotten...



I purchased a Sony BluRay remote from Amazon. Took nearly 4 weeks to arrive since it was from China, return shipping was to China (I had to pay it) and the remote which claimed to be genuine probably was not There was significant cosmetic damage to the unit though it was claimed to be new, not a second.

So bottom line I would avoid it.


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## RGF (Jan 22, 2016)

kaihp said:


> kaswindell said:
> 
> 
> > Very often it is a case of you get what you pay for. There is a reason Canon lenses cost more than cheap Chinese knockoffs. There is a reason RRS products cost more than what you find on Ebay. I guess it comes down to one question...
> ...



If the item is reasonable close in price to the US item of known exactly quality, then I would accept it could be a quality product. If it sells for pennies on the $, then I have large doubts that it is of the same quality.

Other question - has the knock off violated patent?


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## NancyP (Jan 22, 2016)

Sunwayfoto has decent products. L bracket design varies, so look at the ad carefully and ascertain if you have access to the communications ports and battery door.


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## sulla (Jan 23, 2016)

Well, I am not sure what "3rd party L-bracket" means given there is no 1st (Canon) party one. All L-brackets are 3rd party, I would say.

So, the question is, which one to get, more expensive ones or cheaper ones.

I originally planned to get the RRS one, but they are offly hard to impossible to get in Europe.
So I bought the Sirui TY-5DIIILBG L-plate for the camera including battery grip. It was a horrible product, didn't fit the battery grip acceptably, so I immediately sent it back.
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00MPV46WK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
Then I bought the Mengs model which is very similar, but fits the grip a lot better, still not perfect, but acceptable. There is still a tiny bit of play between baseplate and the grip and a slight rotation is still possible. RSS could do better, but I have no comparison. If only Canon drilled 2 threads into their cameras / grips. As a side note, I also have the non-L non-battery-grip baseplate from Mengs for my camera, and this fits snuggly. Perfect, RRS can't be better.
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00INTC6FW?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s01

Note, however, that "Arca-Swiss compatible" is not an exact specification, rather a range of ways in which to manufacture plates. One major differentiator for me was that some manufacturers place small stopper-screws at the end of the plates, others don't. Mengs does, but I believe to remember RRS doesn't. Those screws are there for stopping the camera from falling in case the clamp is not tight enough. Some manufacturers have a stopping mechanism in the clamp, and for those plates or L-brackets without stopping screws are appropriate, other manufacturers do not include stopping mechanisms in their clamps but place stopping screws into the plates. To put a long story short, plate and clamp should fit together, and just a specified arca-swiss compatibility does not guarantee that.

I hope to have been helpful
Sulla


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## RGF (Jan 23, 2016)

sulla said:


> Well, I am not sure what "3rd party L-bracket" means given there is no 1st (Canon) party one. All L-brackets are 3rd party, I would say.



Rather than 3rd party, read know 1st quality producers such as RRS and Kirk (there may be others, these are the 2 that are top of mind)


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## danski0224 (Jan 23, 2016)

kaihp said:


> There are a couple of reasons why a Chinese manufacturer can produce something less expensive than, say, an US manufacturer:
> - Cost of materials are lower in China than in the US
> - Cost of labor is lower in China than in the US
> - Cost of energy is lower in China than in the US
> - Many Chinese manufacturers are willing to manufacture and sell at a lower gross margins than US companies



Oh gees, that sounds so peachy.

Virtually nonexistent environmental laws and enforcement in China. Ties into "low materials cost".

Obscenely low priced of raw materials (dumping). Ties into "low materials cost".

Of course energy costs less in China. They don't have those pesky EPA and Clean Air Act issues to deal with compared to US power generation, or comparable laws in the EU. Coal fired power plants provide most of the electricity in the USA and also China. 

Currency manipulation. Well, I guess the USA has "Quantitative Easing"....

I don't really buy the whole "lower gross margin" argument. There is a whole string of middlemen involved with importing merchandise, and they all get a cut. This raises the final wholesale price in the USA. Buying Chinese goods (more) direct(ly) from places like eBay or Alibaba significantly reduces the number of middlemen and their markups. Retailers have moved to Chinese goods to keep their wholesale/retail markup as high as possible (often exceeding 100%). Given a choice between domestic (USA or equal quality non-Chinese goods) or Chinese goods priced just a little bit cheaper, consumers invariably choose cheaper. The problem is in the mirror. 

It is impossible for an entity like Really Right Stuff to compete on price with similar appearing merchandise from China. You either allow RRS to flout existing US laws while manufacturing here like Chinese manufacturers so they can lower the price or bring China manufacturing, labor laws and environmental laws up to USA standards- causing the price to increase.

Arca Swiss has a knockoff Cube to contend with. Good luck with copyright laws on that one.

I do agree that quality goods can be manufactured in China. It all depends on the specifications provided to the manufacturer... and then whether or not someone cheats the specs after approval to pocket the difference.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 23, 2016)

sulla said:


> So, the question is, which one to get, more expensive ones or cheaper ones.
> 
> I originally planned to get the RRS one, but they are offly hard to impossible to get in Europe.
> So I bought the Sirui TY-5DIIILBG L-plate for the camera including battery grip. It was a horrible product, didn't fit the battery grip acceptably, so I immediately sent it back.
> ...



You can generally count on the more expensive brands (RRS, Kirk) to fit properly the first time. There should be no play or rotation, so I'd say neither of your plates is a good fit. The Sirui surprises me, as they are one of the better reputed off-brands. RRS sells only direct, but Kirk uses distributors and should be available from EU sellers. Kirk and RRS are of similar high quality, IMO the only place where RRS is clearly superior is their modular design used for some brackets (e.g. the 1D X, EOS M, but not the 5-series). 




sulla said:


> Note, however, that "Arca-Swiss compatible" is not an exact specification, rather a range of ways in which to manufacture plates. One major differentiator for me was that some manufacturers place small stopper-screws at the end of the plates, others don't. Mengs does, but I believe to remember RRS doesn't. Those screws are there for stopping the camera from falling in case the clamp is not tight enough. Some manufacturers have a stopping mechanism in the clamp, and for those plates or L-brackets without stopping screws are appropriate, other manufacturers do not include stopping mechanisms in their clamps but place stopping screws into the plates. To put a long story short, plate and clamp should fit together, and just a specified arca-swiss compatibility does not guarantee that.



Among the good quality brands, Arca-Swiss compatible means just that – plates from RRS, Kirk, Wimberley, etc. fit clamps from any of them as well as from Markins, Acratech, AS, etc. If you start throwing cheap plates or clamps from off-brands into the mix, you may run into problems. 

Some plates do have safety stops, most lens plates and some body plates, a few of the latter have just one safety stop. It's a nice feature, although with good lever clamps it's not really necessary (but if the plate is tapped for them, it's easy enough to not install the screws, and it's great to have the option!).


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## RGF (Jan 23, 2016)

danski0224 said:


> kaihp said:
> 
> 
> > There are a couple of reasons why a Chinese manufacturer can produce something less expensive than, say, an US manufacturer:
> ...



you forgot IP. After all let them copy RRS without paying royalties. Ownership/invention does not matter.

Everyone on this forum would allow would not be concerned if someone stole our image and claimed it was their own and then sold it. ;D ;D


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## sulla (Jan 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Among the good quality brands, Arca-Swiss compatible means just that – plates from RRS, Kirk, Wimberley, etc. fit clamps from any of them as well as from Markins, Acratech, AS, etc. If you start throwing cheap plates or clamps from off-brands into the mix, you may run into problems.


Yes, sure, "Arca-Swiss compatible" means that all plates will geometrically fit all clamps, including really cheap chinese ones, and generally they do. I just wanted to stress that the quasi-standard still permits the use of incompatible safety-locks, including no safety lock at all.

That said, Manfrotto's claimed "arca-swiss compatible" Q6 tripod head is a real nightmare. It is only half-way Arca-Swiss compatible, other manufacturer's plates don't fit the manfrotto head, but Manfrotto plates fit other manufacturer's clamps. They sort-of followed the standard, but a small design flaw causes this.


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## kaihp (Jan 23, 2016)

sulla said:


> That said, Manfrotto's claimed "arca-swiss compatible" Q6 tripod head is a real nightmare. It is only half-way Arca-Swiss compatible, other manufacturer's plates don't fit the manfrotto head, but Manfrotto plates fit other manufacturer's clamps. They sort-of followed the standard, but a small design flaw causes this.



Things like that make me want to strangle them slowly over that


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 23, 2016)

sulla said:


> Yes, sure, "Arca-Swiss compatible" means that all plates will geometrically fit all clamps, including really cheap chinese ones, and generally they do. I just wanted to stress that the quasi-standard still permits the use of incompatible safety-locks, including no safety lock at all.



I've run across some cheap plates that don't lock properly into a good clamp. Have you run across incompatible safety stops? Generally they're just small screws that go at the ends of the plate, so they sit outside the clamp. Some clamps have a depression/groove on the bottom surface so the proper-height stop screws can slide a ways into the clamp for more positional flexibility (can help with long lenses). RRS clamps have them, but without that the safety stop screw would just stop at the side of the clamp. 

AS-compatibility really just refers to the dovetail angle and radius. 




sulla said:


> That said, Manfrotto's claimed "arca-swiss compatible" Q6 tripod head is a real nightmare. It is only half-way Arca-Swiss compatible, other manufacturer's plates don't fit the manfrotto head, but Manfrotto plates fit other manufacturer's clamps. They sort-of followed the standard, but a small design flaw causes this.



Agreed - that was a sad affair. It was my understanding that Manfrotto changed the design more recently (and silently), such that the newer versions of the clamp will accept standard AS plates – that's based on forum comments not personal experience.


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## danski0224 (Jan 23, 2016)

RGF said:


> you forgot IP. After all let them copy RRS without paying royalties. Ownership/invention does not matter.
> 
> Everyone on this forum would allow would not be concerned if someone stole our image and claimed it was their own and then sold it. ;D ;D



I suppose, by extension, everyone should be paying Arca-Swiss royalties then... these clamps are all "Arca-Swiss compatible", right? ;D I don't know who came up with the idea first.

Some call them dovetail clamps, though.

This is way outside of familiar ground for me, but it sure seems that there is very little to no available enforcement or penalties when an entity in China rips off an idea and manufactures it. The same process happening within say the USA or the EU seems to be a bit more problematic for the thief... like if I decided to copy RRS designs and sell them as my own.


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## kaihp (Jan 23, 2016)

danski0224 said:


> This is way outside of familiar ground for me, but it sure seems that there is very little to no available enforcement or penalties when an entity in China rips off an idea and manufactures it. The same process happening within say the USA or the EU seems to be a bit more problematic for the thief... like if I decided to copy RRS designs and sell them as my own.



This is definitely a sore point. You need to prosecute the company in China, something which an uphill battle. I forget the details, but the first hurdle is that Chinese IP laws are different than US/European IP/Patent law.

If you took the RRS designs and gave them to a Chinese company to copy and manufacture, and you only sold it inside China, I think RRS would have a hard time shutting you down. They could fairly easily block you from entering NA & Europe, though.

However, China are catching up on IP rights, because their government realizes that IP protection is also in the interest of China themselves (in the long run). For example, I have seen company-private documents removed from Baidu (the Chinese service that looks suspiciously similar to Google) after the company had a Chinese Law firm contact Baidu asserting that the docs were proprietary information. I don't think that would have happened 10 years ago.


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## sulla (Jan 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Have you run across incompatible safety stops?



Yes, I have:
The Sirui MP-20 Arca-Swiss-compatible clamp has a safety stop in form of a bolt that rises from the clamp. It won't accept those plates which do not have a receiving slot for that bolt, eg. such that have a flat bottom or that have open sides.
http://www.amazon.de/MP-20-Schnellwechselbasis-78x56mm-Arca-Swiss-Platten-schwarz/dp/B0083IM3ZQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453584278&sr=8-1&keywords=sirui+arca-swiss



neuroanatomist said:


> It was my understanding that Manfrotto changed the design more recently (and silently)


Ah, that's good to know, thanks for the Info, but too late for me. I already bought the Hejnar custom clamp for my Manfrotto head, and it works like a charm.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 23, 2016)

sulla said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Have you run across incompatible safety stops?
> ...



Interesting, thanks. More interesting, and not in a good way – it's available on Amazon US, only through 3rd party sellers, and the only image shown is of the bottom of the clamp, so you can't see that pin.


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## crank47 (Jan 24, 2016)

sulla said:


> That said, Manfrotto's claimed "arca-swiss compatible" Q6 tripod head is a real nightmare. It is only half-way Arca-Swiss compatible, other manufacturer's plates don't fit the manfrotto head, but Manfrotto plates fit other manufacturer's clamps. They sort-of followed the standard, but a small design flaw causes this.



I have the new version of the Q6 and use an ebay L-plate and peakdesign plate on it as normal. I posted pictures in a different thread that neuroanatomist is referring to.


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