# Canon EOS 6D Mark II Talk [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 27, 2016)

```
<p>There has been a bit of chatter since the EOS 5D Mark IV announcement about the upcoming Canon EOS 6D Mark II. We’re told to expect the camera in the first half of 2017, with CP+ in February being a strong possibility for an announcement. We’re told the new camera is going to be 25mp (prototypes exist), have an articulating screen, dual SD card slots and shoot some form of 4K. I’d assume DPAF is also going to be included in the camera. Also expect some weight savings and a slightly smaller size.</p>
<p>This is [CR1], so treat it accordingly.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


----------



## IglooEater (Sep 27, 2016)

Yess! Depending on the price (and specifications), this will be my next camera 

I didn't expect it quite so soon. (Yes, I know it's cr1)


----------



## Jopa (Sep 27, 2016)

It would be so nice to see a 5ds/r II with all recently introduced goodies in 2017... Yes, I know - dream on


----------



## x-vision (Sep 27, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> We’re told the new camera is going to be 25mp (prototypes exist), have an articulating screen, dual SD card slots and shoot some form of 4K.



Nah. 

36MP, single SD card, maybe plastic body. 
You heard it here first 8).


----------



## Famateur (Sep 27, 2016)

I know...CR1.

Still...

If it is essentially an 70D/80D with a full-frame sensor, I will most certainly buy it.

Please, please, please, please, please, please...


----------



## Jopa (Sep 27, 2016)

x-vision said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told the new camera is going to be 25mp (prototypes exist), have an articulating screen, dual SD card slots and shoot some form of 4K.
> ...



Need to keep costs lower, so it will be a cardboard body, similar to what google cardboard is made of.


----------



## candyman (Sep 27, 2016)

I really look forward to replace my 6D with this camera if....
- dual pixe AF with centerpoint AF is sensitive to -4EV
- DR in lower iso improved to level of 5D MKIV
- less noise higher iso (6400) and less color banding
- af system up to minimum of 19 preferable 45 points with wider spread


very welcome double slots, 25mp en articulating screen. I hope also touchscreen


----------



## Lenscracker (Sep 27, 2016)

I have 5D3 and 5Dsr. I like them both. I wish for one of these cameras to excel at low light high ISO photography. I don't need more pixels. I need better low light performance. Maybe a new 6D would do that. I love the idea of an articulating back. I had to buy a new Pentax K1 in order to get that in a full frame.


----------



## bsbeamer (Sep 27, 2016)

Famateur said:


> I know...CR1.
> 
> Still...
> 
> ...



That is what this sort of needs to be for me. Would love the full articulating screen that flips to the side like 70D and better 4K implementation, but that might be asking too much from Canon...


----------



## Alejandro (Sep 27, 2016)

What i'm hoping for:

22-24 mpx.
5.5 fps
wifi/gps
[email protected]
no 4k.
Dual SD.
No improvement over DR
Hoping for a 6D like noise levels.
-4 EV
Improved AF (a little bit better than the 5D3).


----------



## rpiotr01 (Sep 27, 2016)

As long as they continue to have replaceable focus screens this will likely be my next camera


----------



## Wideopen (Sep 27, 2016)

This!!! If they can provide all these around $2000, it will be an instant pre-order for me.




candyman said:


> I really look forward to replace my 6D with this camera if....
> - dual pixe AF with centerpoint AF is sensitive to -4EV
> - DR in lower iso improved to level of 5D MKIV
> - less noise higher iso (6400) and less color banding
> ...


----------



## Chaitanya (Sep 27, 2016)

Need better AF module and Dual SD Slot. Also 4k video with h.365 codec none of that craptastic bloaty Mjpeg.


----------



## LesC (Sep 27, 2016)

As with most new releases, price will be the deciding factor for many. But if it has an articulated screen, hopefully touch enabled, keeps it's GPS and has some other minor tweaks I'll be interested in P/Ex-ing my 6D.

Dual card slots & 4K sound nice but I'm a bit skeptical about them; wouldn't want the price to be too high either...


----------



## candyman (Sep 27, 2016)

candyman said:


> I really look forward to replace my 6D with this camera if....
> - dual pixe AF with centerpoint AF is sensitive to -4EV
> - DR in lower iso improved to level of 5D MKIV
> - less noise higher iso (6400) and less color banding
> ...




....I aslo welcome the relocation of the remote shutter port to the front of the camera. While using the 6D in portrait for panorama of longexposure shots, this is a headache with the cable and the cover of the current remote shutter port.


----------



## JohanCruyff (Sep 27, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> 25mp (prototypes exist),
> an articulating screen
> dual SD card slots
> shoot some form of 4K.
> I’d assume DPAF is also going to be included </p><span id="pty_trigger"></span>





IglooEater said:


> Yess! Depending on the price (and specifications), this will be my next camera


It should have been my next camera, but 30 minutes ago I bought a second hand 6D+Battery Grip @ 900 Eur... 
So I think I won't be an early adopter of the 6D2: I'll wait patiently for the initial price (1800 Eur? 2000 Eur?) to fall.


----------



## candyman (Sep 27, 2016)

JohanCruyff said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > 25mp (prototypes exist),
> ...


Nevertheless you will enjoy your 6D. It produces some very good quality images (from technical point of view)
Congrats and enjoy!


----------



## rfdesigner (Sep 27, 2016)

Assuming it's true it's a nice upgrade..

For me video is not key, but I'd regard 1080p/60fps at full frame as more important than crop 4k. I'd guess most 6D owners are going to baulk at having to fork out for extra lenses for wide angle 4k video.

Re the flippy screen, so long as it's as robust as the Pentax K1 I'd be happy with it.

Resolution: I'd be happy with Canon sticking to 20Mpix if it means keeping or enhancing the low light ability. Ability to shoot in low light is far more important to me than printing posters.

I would expect the DR improvements of the 80D/1D/5D. Nice to have but not a deal maker from my standpoint.

For me the killer spec will be the price.


----------



## ashmadux (Sep 27, 2016)

This...this could be AWESOME...the potential to be canons mid enthusiast body for landscapers and a DECENT AF SYSTEM, + dpaf & modern dynamic range.

My 6d is ready to be soooooooooollllllld.

Cmon Canon, make it happppennnn


----------



## ashmadux (Sep 27, 2016)

Famateur said:


> I know...CR1.
> 
> Still...
> 
> ...



THIS, THIS, and more THIS!


----------



## pmjm (Sep 27, 2016)

I went from a 70d to a 5dmk4 and the thing I miss the most is the articulating screen. Would certainly be worth a 5mp downgrade for me. But the DR and high-ISO performance would have to be on par because I shoot mostly low light. This could be interesting.


----------



## pokerz (Sep 27, 2016)

5d4= 1.74x crop, m5= axis electronic stabilization
6d2 should be 2x crop with 5 axis electronic stabilization.


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 27, 2016)

Jopa said:


> It would be so nice to see a 5ds/r II with all recently introduced goodies in 2017... Yes, I know - dream on



5DS/R already has a lot of what the 5DIV got, better noise, no banding, better wb, anti-flickr, better color, up to +2 full stops dynamic range, improved AF, new motor shutter, custom menus etc. etc. so I expect its going to be a long wait.


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 27, 2016)

pmjm said:


> I went from a 70d to a 5dmk4 and the thing I miss the most is the articulating screen. Would certainly be worth a 5mp downgrade for me. But the DR and high-ISO performance would have to be on par because I shoot mostly low light.



6D had a better sensor than 5DIII - why expect less for the 6DII over the 5DIV? I'm holding off my own verdict between the two as a back up for my 5DS/R until I know more or the 5DIV price drops.


----------



## bitm2007 (Sep 27, 2016)

4K video, which I don't want, need or will ever use. When will Canon realize that there is a sizable market out there for a still's only camera ?


----------



## comazzi (Sep 27, 2016)

I hope the new 6D will be called EOS M6.


----------



## crashpc (Sep 27, 2016)

Another vote for m6.


----------



## j-nord (Sep 27, 2016)

5mpix isn't quite the bump I would like to see. Closer to 30 would be nice but I could probably live with 25 if it does have the rest of the features most of us are hoping for/expecting:

- Similar or better sensor performance to the 5DIV
- 5fps+
- articulating LCD
- better low light AF
- Faster AF
- at least a couple cross type points
- 2 card slots
- better weather sealing
- slightly smaller/lighter
- the joystick AF point selector would be nice

This should go with out saying but it better have Auto-ISO exposure compensation in M-mode like all the recent releases from Canon. I'm saying it because I don't trust Canon and this will be one of the biggest features for me when I upgrade my 6D.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 27, 2016)

bitm2007 said:


> 4K video, which I don't want, need or will ever use. When will Canon realize that there is a sizable market out there for a still's only camera ?



They won't, because there isn't, Nikon are rumoured to have sold less than 20 Df's. 

Now I am not saying people will use 4k in their DSLR's but for some stupid reason they believe they need it, little realising the hassle, time, storage space, processing power, workflow etc it is to deal with.


----------



## Famateur (Sep 27, 2016)

ashmadux said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > I know...CR1.
> ...



I'm encouraged by how many share our desire. I know commenters on Canon Rumors aren't necessarily representative of the market, but I'm hopeful that the message is heard, somehow, by the decision makers at Canon.

As much as people rip on Canon for not giving people what they want, I've lurked on this forum for enough years to remember the belly-aching for a "high megapixel monster". Canon delivered. There were cries for better AF than the 5DII. Canon delivered, putting 1DX AF in the 5DIII. There were moans about the extreme cost of lenses. Canon then released several stellar lenses with surprisingly competitive prices. There were howls for better dynamic range, reduced banding more resolution, 4K, GPS, and more. Canon delivered with the 5DIV. Granted, the implementation doesn't please everyone, and in some cases they're quite late to the game, but the point is I think the people at Canon listen more than they're given credit for.

Aside from the complaining about MJPEG and old card slot tech, many reviewers of the 5DIV are lamenting the lack of articulating screen. Of course, a few years ago, "pros" all poo-pooed the idea of an articulating screen on a prosumer/pro body. Canon apparently listened. In the meantime, opinions changed, and more "pros" have warmed to articulating screens (and Nikon and Pentax have released full-frame bodies with them). My hunch is that Canon will listen again and put one on either the 6DII or the next 5D iteration.

One can hope, anyway.


----------



## nightscape123 (Sep 27, 2016)

I just hope it has a vastly improved focusing system. I used an 80d this past weekend and I don't think I can go back to crappy AF anymore...


----------



## Ryananthony (Sep 27, 2016)

j-nord said:


> 5mpix isn't quite the bump I would like to see. Closer to 30 would be nice but I could probably live with 25 if it does have the rest of the features most of us are hoping for/expecting:
> 
> - Similar or better sensor performance to the 5DIV
> - 5fps+
> ...




Similar senser performance to 5div but I don't think it will be better. Not this time. 

5fps sounds about right to me.

Articulating screen 

Might have bettee low light af and perhaps a little faster but I don't think it will be very noticeable in real world. 

I don't think it will get two card slots 

I don't think it will get better weather sealing 

Will be a bit smaller but not much lighter. 

I am pretty sure it will never get the af point selecter from 5d line and up. 

The 6d was my first ff camera. Which I think is what canon is hoping for, with others and the 6d2. It created fantastic images over and over but it was missing a lot of things I had learned I needed/ wanted. That is why I purchased a 5d3. And that horrible mushy dpad thing for selecting af points was the worst. 

Edit: this is nothing but my opinion based off not much.


----------



## liangming16 (Sep 27, 2016)

Even the low end compact cameras now have 20 MP resolution. I can't think of Canon will make a FF camera with just 25 MP resolution and 5 FPS in 2017.


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Sep 27, 2016)

liangming16 said:


> Even the low end compact cameras now have 20 MP resolution. I can't think of Canon will make a FF camera with just 25 MP resolution and 5 FPS in 2017.


By their logic, the cameras below are technological waste:

Canon 1DX Mark ii - 20 megapixel
Nikon D5 - 20 Megapixel
Sony A7S ii - 12 megapixel


----------



## FECHariot (Sep 27, 2016)

I'm going to buy it as long as it has this or at least close to this:
DPAF
Flippy screen
AF points as good as 70D but better yet as good as 80D with at least 5 f8 focusing points (Center and one at each rule of thirds)
6FPS please
4K - I don't care how bad it is because I wont use more than 1080P unless they give us a screen grab option like 5d4.
Electronic stabilization for video would be nice
Wifi


----------



## liangming16 (Sep 27, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> liangming16 said:
> 
> 
> > Even the low end compact cameras now have 20 MP resolution. I can't think of Canon will make a FF camera with just 25 MP resolution and 5 FPS in 2017.
> ...



I am talking about the same level of cameras. Compare to 6D (20 MP, 5FPS), and Nikon D750 (24 MP, 6FPS), the 6DII specs should be a little jump from those specs.


----------



## tron (Sep 27, 2016)

liangming16 said:


> Even the low end compact cameras now have 20 MP resolution. I can't think of Canon will make a FF camera with just 25 MP resolution and 5 FPS in 2017.


I may be unjust to some but I can't think of anyone with a low post count to CR to not be a troll...


----------



## Boyer U. Klum-Cey (Sep 27, 2016)

I am with the M6 crowd on this one.


----------



## sunnyVan (Sep 27, 2016)

I suppose I won't be getting 5Dmkiv or M5 after all, though for the past few weeks I'd been feeling really gassy. With this news, I'm going to have to wait a few more months and see whether there's a 6Dmk2. 

Question is how much it will be? My previous guess for 16-35 2.8 iii and 24-105ii turns out to be spot on. I'm guessing this time that 6Dmk2 will be around $2300-2500.


----------



## roxics (Sep 27, 2016)

If they can deliver DCI 4K at not more than a 1.5x crop (24/25MP sensor or less) as well as a flip out screen, DPAF and headphone/microphone jack, that will make up for some of bad press they got in the video world with the 5D mkIV announcement.


----------



## wildwalker (Sep 27, 2016)

Alejandro said:


> What i'm hoping for:
> 
> 22-24 mpx.
> 5.5 fps
> ...



You are hoping for no improvement in Dynamic Range? really? That would be first on my list!


----------



## wildwalker (Sep 27, 2016)

Chaitanya said:


> Need better AF module and Dual SD Slot. Also 4k video with h.365 codec none of that craptastic bloaty Mjpeg.



Wow, h.365, you certainly are hoping for something there hehe. Is there a requirement for h.265? Considering most people want to retain best PQ for post processing, perhaps sticking with h.264 for now would be better, HEVC is still fairly new, and the efficiency gains are not as good as predicted yet. However, even at h.264 I would expect 10bit, and maybe 4:2:2.


----------



## luisbelo (Sep 27, 2016)

A flippy screen would be awesome, but sound to good to be true. Let's hope not...


----------



## wildwalker (Sep 27, 2016)

The release of the 5DMk4 has really dented my confidence in Canon. Its totally overpriced for what it does, the 4K is lacking, but mostly the price, especially in the UK, how did they convert $3700 USD in to £3600????

For this reason I think Canon will drop the ball with the 6D Mk2 as well, I bet its twice the price of the 6DMk1 and will be featureless compared to it's rivals.

4K on the 6D Mk2? Well as they have only put 2160p30 on the 5DMk4, they are either going to not put 4K on the 6DMk2 at all, or cripple the 4K in some ridiculous fashion like 15fps, or maybe only use 8bit or a lower bit rate, either way it will suck.

Sorry if I sound really negative, waited a really long time for the 5DMk4 and I am so gutted, its made me feel that Canon have lost the plot, and will screw up all their future products.


----------



## YuengLinger (Sep 27, 2016)

6D Series = Festivus for the rest of us.


----------



## rfdesigner (Sep 27, 2016)

luisbelo said:


> A flippy screen would be awesome, but sound to good to be true. Let's hope not...



No.. what would be truely awsome is a DETACHABLE screen.. sure let it be tip/tilt/swivel.. but let it also be detachable.. then you don't have to muck about with pairing problems to remote control, if it breaks you just buy a new screen and you have no weather sealing issues.

wireless data link of course + wireless charging off the cameras battery.


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 27, 2016)

rfdesigner said:


> luisbelo said:
> 
> 
> > A flippy screen would be awesome, but sound to good to be true. Let's hope not...
> ...


HOW DARE YOU USE COMMON SENSE AND LOGIC ON AN EMOTIONAL ISSUE!

Seriously though, the perfect solution!

There is also the idea of having the touchscreen on the camera able to be duplicated by an app on a phone or a tablet...


----------



## Canonlight13 (Sep 27, 2016)

They need to introduce some kind of image stabilization (I would even be happy if they used the one on the EOS M5) if they want to win back the market they lost to Sony, Olympus, Panasonic. And please, please, bring a hybrid OVF to the market (like Fuji). Image stabilization, tilting touch screen, DPAF, Hybrid OVF (with manual focus assists), and compressed 4K files, would make this a game changer, would kill anything on the market (Sony, Nikon, you name it). Most people that are still with Canon because of their amazing glass, come on Canon, its about time, with the 6D Mark II give us an amazing body too!!


----------



## x-vision (Sep 27, 2016)

liangming16 said:


> Even the low end compact cameras now have 20 MP resolution. I can't think of Canon will make a FF camera with just 25 MP resolution and 5 FPS in 2017.



Exactly. 

The 6D has less megapixels (MPs) than the 5DIII.
So, many assume that the 6DII will also have less MPs than the 5DIV.

Not a correct assumption, IMO.
Like I said, my bet is on 36MP (although it's also quite possible that the 6DII will reuse the 5DIV sensor).

Overall, if Canon wants to charge $2K+ for the 6DII - and they surely do - they can't cripple the 6DII like they crippled the original 6D.
So, the 6DII is guaranteed to have a better AF system (like the 80D maybe?), among other things.

But to avoid stepping on 5DIV's toes, the 6DII is also guaranteed to _*not*_ have dual card slots and a rugged body (and possibly 4K video).


----------



## Tangent (Sep 27, 2016)

Rumored specs sound good -- what I'd like to add is:

weakened AA filter

That extra crispness for landscape would be welcome for me.


----------



## NancyP (Sep 28, 2016)

Articulating screen - maybe I won't bother trying to find and use an angle finder, or use the EOS phone utility to help in those ground-level macro shots. 

The current sensor is a good low-light sensor in terms of shot noise and no patterned noise. I bought the 6D classic for astro work originally. Improved DR would be nice for landscapes. I don't see much difference between 21 and 25 MP, frankly.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Sep 28, 2016)

bsbeamer said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > I know...CR1.
> ...



It's interesting to see that the 5D has moved up market into the pro category. The original 5D was pretty much a full frame version of the 20D (it's THAT old!). A few less fps due to the higher MP...but similar AF and spec other wise. So it's no surprise that the 6DII could easily be a full frame variant of the current XXD range.


----------



## Drum (Sep 28, 2016)

In my opinion;
New sensor - likely, probably on a par for DR and ISO as 5 series NOT 30mp or higher could use 1Dx2 sensor?
improved AF- most likely but probably not the 80D array more likely the 19 pt from the 7d or 70d
one SD card- probably to differentiate from the 5 series
5 FPS - again as above 6 would be too close to 5D4
Tilt screen - I can see this happening in 6D2
flash sync of 1/180 again same as original = product differentiation. 
Video - No clue whatsoever!!

It would still be a great entry full frame camera even with these so called "crippled" specs


----------



## d (Sep 28, 2016)

JohanCruyff said:


> It should have been my next camera, but 30 minutes ago I bought a second hand 6D+Battery Grip @ 900 Eur...
> So I think I won't be an early adopter of the 6D2: I'll wait patiently for the initial price (1800 Eur? 2000 Eur?) to fall.



Ha, I know what you mean! Last week I grabbed a near new (2.5k shots) 6D for ~USD650, and am loving it so far.


----------



## dak723 (Sep 28, 2016)

Not a gear-head - so my only wish for the 6D II is that it takes the same approach as Canon used with the SL1. Make it the smallest and lightest FF DSLR as they can and I am a buyer. 20 MP is fine (And desirable for best IQ) as I want Canon to continue to offer FF with large pixels.


----------



## Zv (Sep 28, 2016)

25mpix sounds about right any more and files will start to get too big, part of the appeal of the 6D is it's simplicity - just a good all rounder. Most likely we'll get improved DR (not that it was an issue!) from the newer sensor design. DPAF is almost a certainty at this point. 

Flip screen would be very nice to see. A welcome feature for landscapes. 

Dual SD slots? Single slot was never a problem for me. OK sure, maybe it'll shut some people up. 

Some kind of 4K? Hmm yeah OK whatever not bothered about 4K but sure throw it in to make the spec sheet look pretty. :

Not sure if this stuff would justify such a high price bump though. There needs to be something extra. I'd like to see at least 6fps and a vastly improved AF system.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

If nothing unusual happens, the 6D2 will be the last Canon full frame release for this decade.

On the 6D2, Canon probably will implement 1-2 of the 10-20 missing modern features the 5D4 or 1DX2 would have urgently needed, and that's it until 2020, after Hillary started her second term.

Instead of reading this forum regarding Canon full frame cameras, in the next 4 years it might be enough if someone can send one alert email in the unlikely case Canon has found an answer to the existing Sony A7R2, 2017 released A7R3 and 2019 released A7R4 (as well as the Sony A9I and A9II who could include the autofocus and processing power of the A99II).

At the speed of innovations of the last 5 years, only in 2030 it could be possible to buy a Canon flagship camera with the same specs and comfort of a camera that Sony already has released in 2020.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> If nothing unusual happens, the 6D2 will be the last Canon full frame release for this decade.



Yes, it would be highly unusual for Canon to update the 5Ds/R before the end of the decade. Why don't you climb back on the turnip truck and ride it back to dilbertland, where you can continue your education in facts and how to interpret them. : : :


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Sep 28, 2016)

rfdesigner said:


> luisbelo said:
> 
> 
> > A flippy screen would be awesome, but sound to good to be true. Let's hope not...
> ...



Hullo...that's called using an iphone via Wifi.


----------



## K (Sep 28, 2016)

*25MP, Dual SD Card Slots, Articulating Screen ----

This will be an absolute KILLER camera. 

If these specs hold up, it doesn't matter what the AF is, the FPS or any of that other stuff. This will be the final answer to Nikon's entry level FF lineup. Superior Canon glass, with a decent FF body with data redundancy ...win, win, win. Cake and eat it.*

Makes one wonder if Canon actually is listening to forums and the web. Been a lot of people complaining about the lack of these 2 key features. I've been saying over and over again. It is unacceptable to charge $2000+ in 2016-7 and have one lousy SD card.

In order to segregate it from the 5D4, they will surely redact a number of things that are for pros. Such as the FTP feature which is very nice. But that is ok, that is the right kind of segmentation. Leaving out these kind of work-flow features makes sense. Holding back on card slots is NOT the right way to separate camera lines. 


A 2-card slot FF from Canon priced right will cause a LOT of Nikon defections. While they have the big dynamic range, these dynamic range lovers love BOKEH more. Bokeh crazy. I talk to them all over the place. They all drool over the Canon 1.2's. They just want a decent and capable body to give them entry to Canon. Canon world means better glass and better flash lighting. Nikon has been offering so much more in FF at the entry level. I own a 6D and its picture quality is as good if not better than anything Nikon puts out -- BUT....it is weak in many other areas that are important to people also looking to make money.

At this level, you have serious amateurs to enthusiasts who are also dabbling with doing jobs here and there, or semi-pros or part-timers. Canon's outlook tends to draw a thick line between these two worlds. When in reality, for many, it is a transition - not a switch. I would NOT take a 6D on a job and risk losing all the data because of a stupid SD card failing. Many know this, and at the entry FF level - buy D610 or D750. More AF points, dual cards, decent IQ. The glass is decent too. Nikon has some nice budget options that compete quite well.


I hope this rumor is true.


----------



## Hellish (Sep 28, 2016)

If the specs happen as such

25MP
13.5+ stops dr (dxo)
~3000 iso score (dxo)
Dual SD Cards (UHS-II??? it will be 2017)
4k video (full frame for no crop but less detail compared to the 1DX2 5D4)(motion jpeg or not preferable not)
DPAF
Flip screen
45 AF Points

This camera will be a killer.

But as earlier rumors stated they planned to move it up market so we can except the price to make it.

I would except to pay $2500 USD and IMO with those specs it would be well worth it


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > If nothing unusual happens, the 6D2 will be the last Canon full frame release for this decade.
> ...



Here's the facts: what is needed now or in the next 4 years is a 5D4/1DX2 with the best missing features of an A7RII/A99II. A 5DsR2 will not only NOT solve any of this, it will also fall short in all specs to any single of the 4 mentioned cameras expect resolution: It won't be mirrorless, it won't be usable for video, it won't be good for lowlight, it won't have extremely fast autofocus and 30 other important things won't be included for allround use.

So yes indeed there might be a follow up to the 5DsR, maybe it's even the great 120MP I have seen at Photokina, which won't be out before 2018. But which problem does this specialist photo camera solve, other than being able to make photos with high megapixels? I own a 5DsR myself, and it's a camera like a tilt shift lens - extremely good for certain situations, but not a good tool for 95% of the rest of the time or 95% of all users.

We can speak again in 2025, when all of you own a Canon camera which is a fusion of the obvious best specs of a 5D4/A99II/A7RII. Then let's take away the 20 new features you got used to by then and it will be fun to hear the complaining.


----------



## padam (Sep 28, 2016)

There has to be a distinction between the 5Dmk4 and 6Dmk2 video features or quality, and the swivel LCD is already an advantage towards the latter.

So if it will have 4k, it won't be nearly as good. Maybe it would be in FF but with line skipping, so moire and aliasing like with the original 6D and low bitrate H264 codec.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> ...it will be fun to hear the complaining.



The complaining then will be like the complaining now, which is like the complaining for the past few years. Incessant whining by a handful of forum-dwelling malcontents, while the rest of the world goes right on buying Canon gear and creating amazing imagery with it.


----------



## smithcon (Sep 28, 2016)

An articulating screen would serve my needs extremely well and would send my current beloved and trusty 6D packing. As I have discovered low vantage point photography, I have discovered that my belly makes an uncomfortable perch from which to operate my limbs. The Canon wifi solution irritates me as I have to go through the pairing routine every time I use it, it seems, and I'd rather not have to rely on another device (although, dang it, it would be nice if somebody did this right).

I have seriously been considering buying an A7R II after spending six hours shooting the world up with one a few days ago. I loved the movable screen, and the IBIS as well, and the amazing IQ, but I'd rather stick a native Canon solution to keep my glass and wallet happy. 

I would love IBIS, but I know that it out of question, and is it less much critical to me than the flippy screen. 

So, here I am putting off a purchase decision based on a CR1 rumor. Never thought it would happen to me.


----------



## AA (Sep 28, 2016)

I hear that keeping with the wonderful tradition of the original 6D, it will come with a cutting edge one-point AF system, which will be an industry second! 

It will also do 4K at 14 fps with a 2.4x crop factor, which will make it particularly suitable for wildlife and voyeuring.

I can hardly wait!


----------



## drob (Sep 28, 2016)

All this needs to be is a full frame 80D with a modest boost in resolution (24-28MP), no AA filter, and a tilt-able touch screen. 4K isn't needed as it would just be crippled anyway and probably just jack up the cost. Hopefully this would come in around 2K initially, then drop to the $1500-1750 price range after 6 months or so.


----------



## timmy_650 (Sep 28, 2016)

I sure hope Nikon and Sony put out some really good camera before then. Bc I would love to upgrade my 6D but if it isn't a killer camera. I will probably put my money into glass. Or wait until 2018 and buy it on a good refurbished sale. I would love something lighter and better for hiking.


----------



## james75 (Sep 28, 2016)

Knowing this camera is about six months away is exciting. I'm not sure if I'll be able to afford it though, given it will probably be priced about a 1,000 less than the markiv at 2,499. The listed specs seem great, especially like the articulating screen. Interested to also see the new sensor tech in this camera as well.


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> I own a 5DsR myself, and it's a camera like a tilt shift lens - extremely good for certain situations, but not a good tool for 95% of the rest of the time or 95% of all users.


Please give an example of a picture better taken with the 5DIII than the 5DS/R. 

5DS/R can do any- and everything - the 5DIII can do but mostly better and sometimes far better, except for a slightly lower fps. The three key aspects 5DIII users wanted updated: AF, DR and MPIX; are all three vastly improved in the 5DS/R just as they were prioritized by Canon for the 5DIV. 

Unless you consider the 5DIII to only be a relevant photographic tool for 5% of all photographers, your comment seems highly misguided. 

On the contrary, the 5DS/R is the "right" tool for the 95% of all photography.


----------



## d (Sep 28, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > I own a 5DsR myself, and it's a camera like a tilt shift lens - extremely good for certain situations, but not a good tool for 95% of the rest of the time or 95% of all users.
> ...



Doug's 5DsR didn't come with with a glossy, 90+ A4 page, Canon system brochure, so he's on a mission to promote Sony, who are happy to waste paper on brochures that will be outdated and binned in a year or so.


----------



## roxics (Sep 28, 2016)

padam said:


> There has to be a distinction between the 5Dmk4 and 6Dmk2 video features or quality, and the swivel LCD is already an advantage towards the latter.
> 
> So if it will have 4k, it won't be nearly as good. Maybe it would be in FF but with line skipping, so moire and aliasing like with the original 6D and low bitrate H264 codec.



That's not necessary true. Canon has released three DSLRs that can shoot 4K so far. All three handle it the same way. Crop the sensor to a 4K 1:1 pixel readout and compressed to mjpeg at 500mbps. 

The reason is because it requires the least amount of processing (thus the least amount of energy and produces the least amount of heat) while still producing a good image. A better image than line skipping. If Canon follows the same trend with the 6D mkII and it uses a 24MP sensor for example, you'll still get a crop, but it won't be as much as the 5D mkIV which has a 30MP sensor. So maybe we'll end up with a 1.5x super35mm crop (or something closer to it, maybe even less of a crop) instead of 1.7x on the 5D mkIV. If it also has a flip out screen like the 80D, DPAF and proper audio at a lower price than the 5D mkIV, that could drive a lot of video shooters who love Canon color to pick one up. Myself included. So in many ways with a lower resolution sensor alone, it could end up being a superior video camera than the 5D so long as they follow the same pattern they have on their other 4K DSLRs.


----------



## drob (Sep 28, 2016)

^^^^IF they added in the 4K that wasn't crippled it would eat into the 5DMk4 sales. My opinion is if it's going to be a half-arsed version and raise the cost, why bother? I'd rather them just upgrade the AF and give me upgrades in other departments.


----------



## YellowJersey (Sep 28, 2016)

I personally don't care about dual card slots or the video features. If this camera brings the sensor improvements of the 1Dx mkII and 5D mkIV and has a better autofocus system than the 6D, then it'll probably be replacing my 5D mkIII. I have to say, I've been eying the A7r II quite a bit lately. But I'll wait until the 6D mkII is out before I make any decisions. I'm in a financial situation where I can't afford to gamble; I'd rather wait until all my options are out, and the reviews are in before making a decision.


----------



## Hjalmarg1 (Sep 28, 2016)

candyman said:


> I really look forward to replace my 6D with this camera if....
> - dual pixe AF with centerpoint AF is sensitive to -4EV
> - DR in lower iso improved to level of 5D MKIV
> - less noise higher iso (6400) and less color banding
> ...


+1, add joystick controller for changins AF points. I hope this to be the High-ISO Low-Noise king in Canon


----------



## ExodistPhotography (Sep 28, 2016)

I fully expect the 6D2 to be a full frame 80D inside and out. However I do hope they retain the magnesium body and if they can stick dual SD cards in, that will be great also.. If the screen its articulating that will be great. But if it isnt I will deal with it. I have grown to love that screen for video and night sky photos so much, its almost essential to me.

Hopefully this will be the case and I for sure will be picking it up..


----------



## 4mrfannwskptc (Sep 28, 2016)

j-nord said:


> 5mpix isn't quite the bump I would like to see. Closer to 30 would be nice but I could probably live with 25 if it does have the rest of the features most of us are hoping for/expecting:
> 
> - Similar or better sensor performance to the 5DIV
> - 5fps+
> ...



I'm a noob in these forums and the format here is somewhat different from other forums I've been in. So I'm not sure this will show up as I planned.

Anyway agree with all of the above and what other posters have said about it being a FF 80D. A very important item for me would be for it to have the same or similar type of AF points all cross-type that the 80D has along with a joystick to move the AF points. Why should it be a premium camera slotted above the APS-C products if it has the same number of AF points as the T6i/s line? A major reason why I never got the 6D was the pitiful lack of AF points along with only 1 cross-type. I wouldn't be willing to pay the premium price if it didn't have this feature. I'd rather revert to the 5DIII or save my $ for the 5DIV.

Since I'm a noob here, I'm not sure how to list my current setup separately.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > ...it will be fun to hear the complaining.
> ...



Yes, what would life be like without the whiners and doomsters! Is it possible these posters are actually somewhere between 5 and 8 years old? In that case I'd be a little more forgiving. 

My 6D has been very good to me, my biggest single complaint being the AF system.

Jack


----------



## bitm2007 (Sep 28, 2016)

> 4K video, which I don't want, need or will ever use. When will Canon realize that there is a sizable market out there for a still's only camera ?
> 
> They won't, because there isn't, Nikon are rumoured to have sold less than 20 Df's.
> 
> Now I am not saying people will use 4k in their DSLR's but for some stupid reason they believe they need it, little realising the hassle, time, storage space, processing power, workflow etc it is to deal with.



Surely the failure of the Df's is more down to value for money, than the need for video features.

It's a 16mp camera, with the processor and AF system borrowed from the Nikon D610 in a retro style body, that was released at a similar price point to the 36MP Nikon D800. Hopefully it's replacement that is rumored for next year, will provide a truer indication of our need for video features.


----------



## captainkanji (Sep 28, 2016)

If the sensor and AF are improved, I'm totally buying one. I love the 6Ds IQ, but the AF is shameful. Hope they keep the price around 2k.


----------



## Tugela (Sep 28, 2016)

Alejandro said:


> What i'm hoping for:
> 
> 22-24 mpx.
> 5.5 fps
> ...



It is more likely to be a FF version of the EOS-M5 in terms of specs.

So, single Digic7 processor
1080p60 recording at 35 mbps as mp4 files
Single SD slot
7fps
Touchscreen, articulated
Wifi with Bluetooth
Around 30-35 mpixel sensor


----------



## Zv (Sep 28, 2016)

Is it just me or does anyone else think te 6DII would be better off without 4K video? 

I understand at this point a DSLR needs to have some video features and that's cool an all but just leave the 4K out if it's gonna be half arsed and increase the cost and complexity of the design. 

So sick of hearing about 4K. Next person who shouts about lack of 4K better post a link to all their wonderful 4K videos they're making or I call BS that they even have the capability to do anything with it. (Excluding broadcast and movie industry)


----------



## M_S (Sep 28, 2016)

Jopa said:


> It would be so nice to see a 5ds/r II with all recently introduced goodies in 2017... Yes, I know - dream on



THIS!! Since the Mark IV is not the replacement of my trusted Mark III I was hoping for, I have my eyes now on a future 5DSR II....or sony. Which comes first.


----------



## Tugela (Sep 28, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> bitm2007 said:
> 
> 
> > 4K video, which I don't want, need or will ever use. When will Canon realize that there is a sizable market out there for a still's only camera ?
> ...



That is an ignorant thing to say. People who want 4K capable products, and buy them, know why they want it, even if it is a mystery to you. Just because you don't have a use for it or understand why it is usefull does not mean that someone else does not have a use for it. In case you are not up to speed with these things, most mid to high end TVs for sale nowdays are 4K sets, and the people who buy them will want to be able to shoot home video that will show off the high resolution. They will not want HD cameras because most HD footage looks like crap on a large 4K panel. They get the big 4K TV, then most understand why they want a 4K camera because it is obvious. This is where the world is heading, 4K as the standard is inevitable in spite of the tears of the Luddites.

It is a feature. If your camera has it, and you don't want to use it, then don't use it. It doesn't detract from the capability of the rest of the camera.

Don't try to screw those who do want to use it just because you want to be bloody minded for no good reason.


----------



## Tugela (Sep 28, 2016)

Zv said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else think te 6DII would be better off without 4K video?
> 
> I understand at this point a DSLR needs to have some video features and that's cool an all but just leave the 4K out if it's gonna be half arsed and increase the cost and complexity of the design.
> 
> So sick of hearing about 4K. Next person who shouts about lack of 4K better post a link to all their wonderful 4K videos they're making or I call BS that they even have the capability to do anything with it. (Excluding broadcast and movie industry)



I doubt it will have 4K video. It will probably be a FF version of the 80D and M5.

Speaking personally, I made the decision in mid 2014 that going forward I would not buy a camera that did not have 4K capabilities, or could not function as a fully featured hybrid camera. The only exception I made to that rule was the P900, but that camera I bought specifically for the extreme reach it has in a reasonably portable size.

Canon have decided that they don't want my business, which is fine. Other companies have received it instead because those companies have a vision for the future that matches my own.


----------



## bitm2007 (Sep 28, 2016)

> Is it just me or does anyone else think te 6DII would be better off without 4K video?
> 
> I understand at this point a DSLR needs to have some video features and that's cool an all but just leave the 4K out if it's gonna be half arsed and increase the cost and complexity of the design.
> 
> So sick of hearing about 4K. Next person who shouts about lack of 4K better post a link to all their wonderful 4K videos they're making or I call BS that they even have the capability to do anything with it. (Excluding broadcast and movie industry)



Me, I don't want, need or am ever likely to use, the video features on my camera's (see four post above)

I have just started a poll that is related to this subject (link below)

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=30944.0


----------



## Tugela (Sep 28, 2016)

bitm2007 said:


> > Is it just me or does anyone else think te 6DII would be better off without 4K video?
> >
> > I understand at this point a DSLR needs to have some video features and that's cool an all but just leave the 4K out if it's gonna be half arsed and increase the cost and complexity of the design.
> >
> ...



So you don't record video of your kids, vacations and other memorable events for when you are old and grey?

Maybe that is you, but a lot of people do record that sort of video, and there is no good reason why all cameras should not be able to do this well.

If you are a professional and your job specifically involves only stills or only video, then you might use a specialized camera. But everyone else (even low end "professionals") can get good use from a multi purposed camera.


----------



## rfdesigner (Sep 28, 2016)

GMCPhotographics said:


> rfdesigner said:
> 
> 
> > luisbelo said:
> ...



Not everyone has an smartphone, I don't, it would be of extremely limited use for me, I have looked at getting one for pairing to my 6D but frankly 99% of my usage doesn't need it.
If canon expects people to use their phone why do they put articulated screens on any camera?, surely a wifi adapter is the way to go!
A smartphone is another peice of kit to make everything work, and then you're at the whim of the latest OS "update" pulling the rug from under you. Has Canon ever screwed your camera by force feeding un update you didn't want?
Much better to have a dedicated remote screen which doesn't need regular updates, is always charged, and because there's no DC connection can be hermetically sealed if necessary, so IP68 or whatever becomes possible.

It all comes down to how much you value reliability. I strongly suspect Canon places a mucher higher value on reliability than most manufacturers and large software companies.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 28, 2016)

and yet most people are happy shooting video on their phone and viewing that on their TV not caring whether the TV is overspecced for what they are viewing. 
What the video freaks really don;t get is that if someone is really serious about their video, are they going to buy a 6DII or a 5DIV or a 1DXii or (if it comes out) a 1Dcii? I can imagine the marketing men saying 'people who are serious about video won't be buying the 6Dii for its video so keep costs down by using 1080'.


----------



## bitm2007 (Sep 28, 2016)

> So you don't record video of your kids, vacations and other memorable events for when you are old and grey?



I prefer the still format for this



> Maybe that is you, but a lot of people do record that sort of video, and there is no good reason why all cameras should not be able to do this well



The video features are factored into the pricing of a camera, so non video users are paying for features we don't want or need, without a viable alternative from Canon.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 28, 2016)

dilbert said:


> The problem for most photographers is going to be that they don't recognise video situations or how to use video, which is to say that once you learn and know how, you appreciate it more.



Precisely. Video has been in cameras for what, 8 years? And still 'most photographers' don't care about video. So the Canon market men seem to have got it right. 
The question is, does the lack of top-notch video mean key people move away and have a long-term draining effect? I would say not.

Back in 2009-2010 (?) they shot whole episodes of TV programmes with the 5Dii for goodness' sake, Are you saying that the video quality in those programmes is not good enough for 'most photographers' even now?


----------



## Stuart (Sep 28, 2016)

Will it be Mirrorless?


----------



## scyrene (Sep 28, 2016)

candyman said:


> I really look forward to replace my 6D with this camera if....
> - dual pixe AF with centerpoint AF is sensitive to -4EV
> - DR in lower iso improved to level of 5D MKIV
> - less noise higher iso (6400) and less color banding
> ...



Mostly pretty reasonable requests, and I think you'll get a lot of that. The only one I'd be doubtful about is much improvement at high ISO (in raw images).


----------



## scyrene (Sep 28, 2016)

wildwalker said:


> The release of the 5DMk4 has really dented my confidence in Canon. Its totally overpriced for what it does, the 4K is lacking, but mostly the price, especially in the UK, how did they convert $3700 USD in to £3600????



$3600 is ~£2850; that is the pre-VAT price, as (and how many times does this have to be said?) US prices are listed without tax. £2850+20% VAT is £3420, which isn't far off £3600 (with a little bump due in part, perhaps, to Canon wanting a bit more space to move the 6D into, perhaps so a budget FF option can be inserted into the lineup). The price will drop after a time, as they always do.



wildwalker said:


> Sorry if I sound really negative, waited a really long time for the 5DMk4 and I am so gutted, its made me feel that Canon have lost the plot, and will screw up all their future products.



:


----------



## scyrene (Sep 28, 2016)

Canonlight13 said:


> They need to introduce some kind of image stabilization (I would even be happy if they used the one on the EOS M5)



It could be useful, but just to be clear - that's for video only.



Canonlight13 said:


> if they want to win back the market they lost to Sony, Olympus, Panasonic.



Um.... citation needed? What market share have they lost? (Hint: look at actual sales data).


----------



## scyrene (Sep 28, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > I own a 5DsR myself, and it's a camera like a tilt shift lens - extremely good for certain situations, but not a good tool for 95% of the rest of the time or 95% of all users.
> ...



I agree with Maiaibing. So long as one has a computer capable of dealing with the larger file sizes, it's just as capable as the 5D3 (and indeed you can use the smaller raw modes if the former is a problem). Apart from 1fps and lack of ISO settings above 12800* it does nothing worse than the 5D3, and some things better.

*the better noise quality at high ISO means you can push files a bit more, especially if downsizing, so you can mitigate this a bit by shooting at 12800 and pushing in post.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 28, 2016)

Zv said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else think te 6DII would be better off without 4K video?
> 
> I understand at this point a DSLR needs to have some video features and that's cool an all but just leave the 4K out if it's gonna be half arsed and increase the cost and complexity of the design.
> 
> So sick of hearing about 4K. Next person who shouts about lack of 4K better post a link to all their wonderful 4K videos they're making or I call BS that they even have the capability to do anything with it. (Excluding broadcast and movie industry)



What's interesting is how before Canon released many cameras with 4K (after the 1DC but before the 1DxII), a lot of forum whining was 'any camera without 4K is DOA'; now they've shifted to 'the 4K is wrong, and camera without [crop/certain codecs/etc] is DOA!'. Shifting goalposts.

I think you're right; a lot of the noise about 4K is from people who are obsessed with ticking boxes on spec sheets, not people who actually use the feature.


----------



## tron (Sep 28, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...


It also fills tfe buffer much sooner than 5D3 but although I have 5D3 I understand why 5DsR does seem better.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 28, 2016)

Tugela said:


> So you don't record video of your kids, vacations and other memorable events for when you are old and grey?
> 
> Maybe that is you, but a lot of people do record that sort of video, and there is no good reason why all cameras should not be able to do this well.



Some people want 4K because they will use it, and I respect that. But I think it is true to say that the more the *content* of a video or photograph matters to someone, the less they care about the technical quality of it. So your contention is a little muddled. Top-notch 4K isn't needed in DSLRs for stills photographers who want to catch a few minutes of their kid's birthday party - since that is a meaningful event to them, they'll be glad of it whatever it looks like* (especially given that other key features are likely not to be used, like an external mic). Cf mobile phone use (as menioned above) - for most people, most of the time, it's good enough. Even if you're a nitpicking technical photographer, you value that selfie your kid took, or whatever - who cares if it's noisier or softer than a DSLR shot. It's meaningful.

And the idea that HD footage 'looks crap' on a 4K screen is a bit odd, too. Related to the point above, when I watch old SD tv shows on an HD tv or Retina display, I don't think 'oh how terrible this footage is', I'm involved in the show (if it was good; if not, I'm not watching it!).

The importance of technical quality is in inverse proportion to the meaningfulness of the content of a picture or video.
So by all means, request the best - but home videos are not the motivator for most people wanting super duper video features on their devices.

*glad does not mean they won'twince when it goes out of focus, or whatever. Just that they'll accept that more readily than if it were a piece of footage shot for purely aesthetic or technical reasons.


----------



## bitm2007 (Sep 28, 2016)

> What's interesting is how before Canon released many cameras with 4K (after the 1DC but before the 1DxII), a lot of forum whining was 'any camera without 4K is DOA'; now they've shifted to 'the 4K is wrong, and camera without [crop/certain codecs/etc] is DOA!'. Shifting goalposts.
> 
> I think you're right; a lot of the noise about 4K is from people who are obsessed with ticking boxes on spec sheets, not people who actually use the feature.



There are clearly two camps, those who find video features a useful addition to a DSLR, and those who don't. Unfortunately Canon caters for one of those camps at the expense of the other.


----------



## K-amps (Sep 28, 2016)

x-vision said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We’re told the new camera is going to be 25mp (prototypes exist), have an articulating screen, dual SD card slots and shoot some form of 4K.
> ...



If it uses that 5 year old IMX094 in the 6D... it will sell well...


----------



## K-amps (Sep 28, 2016)

Lenscracker said:


> I have 5D3 and 5Dsr. I like them both. I wish for one of these cameras to excel at low light high ISO photography. I don't need more pixels. I need better low light performance. Maybe a new 6D would do that. I love the idea of an articulating back. I had to buy a new Pentax K1 in order to get that in a full frame.



Have you compared resolution of the 5dsr to the K1 with pixelshift?


----------



## Sharlin (Sep 28, 2016)

bitm2007 said:


> There are clearly two camps, those who find video features a useful addition to a DSLR, and those who don't. Unfortunately Canon caters for one of those camps at the expense of the other.



And both camps claim the other is the one Canon caters for. Aren't biases awesome?


----------



## tron (Sep 28, 2016)

AA said:


> I hear that keeping with the wonderful tradition of the original 6D, it will come with a cutting edge one-point AF system, which will be an industry second!
> 
> It will also do 4K at 14 fps with a 2.4x crop factor, which will make it particularly suitable for wildlife and voyeuring.
> 
> I can hardly wait!


Very funny! But FYI the crop factor for NOW depends on the mpixels. So if 25 Mpixels it will be between the crop factor of 1DxII and 5D4...


----------



## Sharlin (Sep 28, 2016)

tron said:


> Very funny! But FYI the crop factor for NOW depends on the mpixels. So if 25 Mpixels it will be between the crop factor of 1DxII and 5D4...



I heard it takes a 1080p center crop and uses industry-first digital zoom to upsample it to 4K ;D


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

Jack Douglas said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



Do you hear anybody whining that smartphones don't have enough features? No, because they already include everything you need.

But a Canon 5D4, 1DX2 and pretty safe 6D2 don't include many features of the competition that are VERY convenient, and most of all helpful for STILLS and not only video - especially once the last photographer has found out that a video is just a series of stills he can use as well.

This is a list of very important features that is already mostly included in a Sony A7R2, and in many competitors cameras of a price range between 300-800USD as well - and shamefully to date there is no sign it will be implemented in a 6D2 or any other Canon fullframe camera until 2020:

- Articulating screen
- Fully assignable buttons 
- Third wheel for ISO 
- Silent Photo Shooting
- EVF reviewing and filming
- Sensor stabilization
- Pixelshift
- Focus Peaking
- Zebra
- APS-C Crop Lens compatibility
- Speedbooster Option
- App installation
- Hot Shoe multi use for audio etc
- Thumbnail Videos
- Video Log/Raw Mode
- 4K shooting in real Full Frame
- 4K shooting in any zoom range between Full Frame and the middle 8 MP crop
- 4K in 3840 width
- 4K with efficient codec
- HDMI out in 4K
- 4K 60fps
- 240fps Video


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Jack Douglas said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Generally, a decent list. Not things I would define Canon as 'lagging behind' but useful functions. But using the words like 'shameful' seems little more than hyperbole verging on the ridiculous. 

However, regards APS-C lens compatability, the way Canon has implemented the mounts this is not feasible with Canon lenses because of the mirror hitting the rear lens element. And I can understand why they have excluded that and I can imagine there would be more complaints about them making it even possible. Some APS-C Sigma lenses (especially the ultrawide) are full EOS mount so will fit on FF bodies even though they crop the image circle but as I understand it their lens construction is different to allow it. 

Silent photo shooting - precisely how silent do you need it?

Pixelshift - do an FF cameras have pixel shift? The main issue as I understand it is the mechanics of moving a much larger sensor. 
Third wheel for ISO - yes, I would like it but nothing I lose sleep over (shameful? come on....)

Speedbooster - Firstly it is a minority requirement. But how will this work? As I understand it the speedbooster takes a lens from a larger format and concentrates the light circle down to give brighter image. Which lenses would you want to attach to Canon to do this? Is this Canon's responsibility or Metabones?
Does Nikon have this? Are they 'Shameful'?

EVF - How many Nikon DSLRs have EVF filming and reviewing? Shameful? I am not aware of any cameras with dual OVF and EVF. 

What do you mean by 'fully assignable buttons'?


----------



## VooDooZG (Sep 28, 2016)

It is so easy to make great camera,:

1. take out AA filter
2. take out video and make great photograpic sensor because of that - if you need Video, go buy C-line or ARRI or ect..
3. make less MP but better DR and ISO, also make iso6400 max but than ISO 6400 should be great

6Dmk2 should be 80D/M5 but FF it would be nice 2 version of it, 6dmk2 normal dslr and M6 mirrorless FF


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Do you hear anybody whining that smartphones don't have enough features? No, because they already include everything you need.



Yeah, the newest smartphone from Samsung (you know, that super innovative company that brought us the NX1) even has that great overheat-and-explode feature everyone needs, along with the innovative can't-be-used-on-an-airplane feature. Even the new post-recall units, apparently. 




douglaurent said:


> Jack Douglas said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, what would life be like without the whiners and doomsters! Is it possible these posters are actually somewhere between 5 and 8 years old? In that case I'd be a little more forgiving.
> ...



Nice list of stuff that's very important _to you_. Aside from the lack of those features upsetting you personally (along with all 50 of your rental customers, we know), and perhaps making you stamp your foot petulantly like when the teacher didn't give you a nice, glossy handout after class, how will your list impact the thing that matters to camera makers? Namely, the return on investment from cameras they sell. 

Let's talk again in 2020, when Canon remains the ILC market leader and maybe you'll finally understand the irrelevance of your incessant whining here on CR.


----------



## RonanLB (Sep 28, 2016)

*Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Talk [CR1] *

As many of you, for me the perfect 6D mark II would be a full frame 80d. Don't forget that for many of us the price is very important. If it cost more than 2000 € I'm not shure to switch. Il would prefer to buy an older 6D. 

I actually shot with a 70d. I'm waiting for the mark II because of the AF of the mark I wich will be a regression for me. 

I although prefer better hight ISO level noise than more pixels. A dual SD slots would be a good improvement 

Sorry for my English, I'm French.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Douglas said:
> ...



Shameful: yes, this list is shameful for Canon, when you want to be the #1 on the market and charge prices of 4000+ euros for the cameras, while you're behind the competition regarding 20 important points. Historically Canon probably never has been that far behind in modern features, although they have just released their flagship products.

APS-C lenses: obviously this is an artificial limitation by Canon they could solve in a second if they like. If Canon full frame cameras had crop modes like Sony or Nikon, of course the use of such lenses would even be broader. With the new 4K crop that has no wide full frame alternative on the 5D4/1DX2, it would have been the right time to stop that stupid limitation!

Silent shooting: why not 100% silent? the 5D series are the wedding cameras #1, which photographer or guest enjoys the click noises? Canon simply needs to make a 5D4 mirrorless alternative. They could do, but for years first they try to figure out new camera systems with more different mounted lenses to the people and waste our lifetime.

Pixelshift: Pentax can do it, Canon probably does have a patent problem and want to protect their future high megapixel cameras, which is the main Canon philosophy: if you have 5 tasks, please buy and carry around 5 different cameras instead of 1. Just most people don't want or can do that, even if just a question of logistics and not money.

Speedbooster: We can cross that off the list indeed, because unless all Canon full frame cameras don't have a crop shooting mode, it would be pretty useless anyway. And of course technically it's a problem aside from medium format lens adapter options.

EVF: Nikon is even way more behind than Canon in many things, which is a problem because these two dinosaur companies havent realized yet it's not them alone anymore since it was decades, when they could slow down the pace as they liked. Unfortunately there is no pressure coming from Nikon, which makes it even more important to speak out as a Canon user.

Fully assignable buttons: Like in a Sony camera, simply allow any function on any button of the camera - not just 2-10 random features like in a Canon camera menu. This way the A7R2 already does have a third wheel for ISO if you like by the way.


----------



## dak723 (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> If nothing unusual happens, the 6D2 will be the last Canon full frame release for this decade.
> 
> On the 6D2, Canon probably will implement 1-2 of the 10-20 missing modern features the 5D4 or 1DX2 would have urgently needed, and that's it until 2020, after Hillary started her second term.
> 
> ...



Alas, your comments say nothing about Canon - and a lot about you. Don't you realize that? If you think the Sony offerings are that much better, and don't believe that Canon will produce a camera that is equal to them for the next 3 years, then you must be a complete fool not to switch to Sony.

!0-20 missing features? That statement alone tells us all that you are living in a dream world. Just curious if you have ever actually used these fantastic Sonys. I bought a Sony A7II to replace my Canon 6D - and returned the Sony. I guess those 10-20 missing features didn't make up for the fact that the Canon took better pics (in my opinion, of course), was much easier to use, that the Sony had a very poor EVF, and that the Sony lenses (I returned the first) were possibly the worst I have ever used in terms of being very soft away from the center.

I have sold both cameras and lenses on Ebay, and while you are going to lose money, you can still sell at a fairly good percentage of the original cost in many cases. Please, get your Sony to replace your Canon(s). If you don't, you just prove that you are a childish whiner rather than someone who is smart enough to get the product that they want.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

dilbert said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



'Glaringly deficient' is subjective. For example, so far the 5DIV seems glaringly deficient in the problem of overheating while shooting 4K video (except for douglaurent's unit, of course, which frequently overheats), whereas the Sony a7S II – ostensibly a camera aimed squarely at video shooters – and the a7R II, had that wonderful feature of an overheating sensor (except for douglaurent's units, of course, which never overheated even before Sony released a firmware update to fix the known problem).


----------



## d (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Shameful: yes, this list is shameful for Canon, when you want to be the #1 on the market and charge prices of 4000+ euros for the cameras, while you're behind the competition regarding 20 important points. Historically Canon probably never has been that far behind in modern features, although they have just released their flagship products.



"...when you want to be the #1 on the market" - They already *are* #1, by a decent margin.

"...while you're behind the competition regarding 20 important points" - can't be all that important, given they're already number one!

Half of your "20 important points" are gimmicks, the other half specialty features that the average buyer isn't too concerned about.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

d said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Shameful: yes, this list is shameful for Canon, when you want to be the #1 on the market and charge prices of 4000+ euros for the cameras, while you're behind the competition regarding 20 important points. Historically Canon probably never has been that far behind in modern features, although they have just released their flagship products.
> ...



Yeah, but they're critically important to douglaurent. So Canon is clearly *******. I mean, clearly. What with all his extensive market research, talking to 50 people he claims feel the same way he does, douglaurent obviously knows more about the business of selling cameras than Canon. 

I guess he and AvTvM both turned down those incredibly lucrative consulting oppotunities that Canon offered them. Bummer. :


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 28, 2016)

Shameful: yes, this list is shameful for Canon, when you want to be the #1 on the market and charge prices of 4000+ euros for the cameras, while you're behind the competition regarding 20 important points. Historically Canon probably never has been that far behind in modern features, although they have just released their flagship products.
Who is their main competitor? Because I don't see 20 points where they are behind against Nikon

APS-C lenses: obviously this is an artificial limitation by Canon they could solve in a second if they like. If Canon full frame cameras had crop modes like Sony or Nikon, of course the use of such lenses would even be broader. With the new 4K crop that has no wide full frame alternative on the 5D4/1DX2, it would have been the right time to stop that stupid limitation!
it's not artificial. Put an EF-S lens on FF camera and the mirror hits the rear element. it is why they designed the EF-S mount the way they did. 
What you are talking about is not EF-S lens compatabaility but sensor crop modes 


Silent shooting: why not 100% silent? the 5D series are the wedding cameras #1, which photographer or guest enjoys the click noises? Canon simply needs to make a 5D4 mirrorless alternative. They could do, but for years first they try to figure out new camera systems with more different mounted lenses to the people and waste our lifetime.
The 6D is silent mode is very, very quiet. Why are you comparing it to 5D models when we are talking about a 6D v2? Have you even used the 6D? 


Pixelshift: Pentax can do it, Canon probably does have a patent problem and want to protect their future high megapixel cameras, which is the main Canon philosophy: if you have 5 tasks, please buy and carry around 5 different cameras instead of 1. Just most people don't want or can do that, even if just a question of logistics and not money.
Nobody that I see has confirmed this is what the Pentax does. 


Speedbooster: We can cross that off the list indeed, because unless all Canon full frame cameras don't have a crop shooting mode, it would be pretty useless anyway. And of course technically it's a problem aside from medium format lens adapter options.
The reason speedboosters were invented was to give shallower DOF because of the different characteristics of FF and MFT. A f4 image on MFT printed to the same size as a F picture has DOF of 5.6 on FF. So what you are saying is use APS-C crop mode then use a speed booster to produce a smaller image circle to give shallow DOF again. Why not just shoot at native f4 on FF and cut the expensive crap in the middle? 


EVF: Nikon is even way more behind than Canon in many things, which is a problem because these two dinosaur companies havent realized yet it's not them alone anymore since it was decades, when they could slow down the pace as they liked. Unfortunately there is no pressure coming from Nikon, which makes it even more important to speak out as a Canon user.

But I thought Nikon was so far ahead of Canon in so many ways. I don't really see Sony as a competitor in the sense that 'Ooh, they have it so we must have it as well or lose market share'. Everything you mention is damn all to what really matters - image quality. Sony fall behind in one massive, important area - poor range of lenses. Canon gives an integrated system. Sony is not really the opposition to Canon, Nikon is and both companies believe that OVF with quality focus tracking and high quality post-sales support is the way to a successful company. Sony is said to have a great AF system - I dont recall seeing a single one.
If you want to see how Sony fares in traditional photographer working life:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5684109129/lucky-number-7-shooting-pro-sports-with-the-sony-a7r-ii

So how far ahead is Sony in what matters? A real world-beater, obviously. 

Fully assignable buttons: Like in a Sony camera, simply allow any function on any button of the camera - not just 2-10 random features like in a Canon camera menu. This way the A7R2 already does have a third wheel for ISO if you like by the way.
Is that really a 'deficiency'? Will that really affect your buying decision?


----------



## 9VIII (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> APS-C lenses: obviously this is an artificial limitation by Canon they could solve in a second if they like. If Canon full frame cameras had crop modes like Sony or Nikon, of course the use of such lenses would even be broader. With the new 4K crop that has no wide full frame alternative on the 5D4/1DX2, it would have been the right time to stop that stupid limitation!



EF-S bodies have a shorter mirror so Canon makes EF-S lenses sit further back in the mount, thus it would break your Full Frame body if you put an EF-S lens on it.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 28, 2016)

dilbert said:


> It used to be said of people complaining about poor DR that Canon was fine doing its thing (i.e. nothing about DR) and then one day, what do you know, Canon's made changes that go some way to appeasing those that were annoyed with the DR and IQ of Canon cameras at low ISO.
> 
> Thus it would seem that the criticism of Canon was recognized by Canon and addressed. I imagine that if there are serious shortcomings in video capability (and there are) then at some point Canon will wake up and do something. When that is, nobody knows. But keeping the fire burning under Canon's feet is most worthwhile.



Canon didn't do it to appease anyone. They have a policy with DSLRs of only using their own sensors - they had not yet developed a sensor to match the competition and if they wanted to appease anyone surely they would have bought a Sony sensor like Nikon did.
Canon IMO also have different priorities. Nikon used Sony sensors for their headline-grabbing low ISO performance. But even now, go above ISO800 and that difference almost vaporises. Canon, having built their reputation on sports and wildlife, knew a vast majority of their customers valued functionality and performance at those higher ISOs and they prioritised their product development accordingly, introducing a high(er)-ISO camera only when they were confident it gave a true development.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

9VIII said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > APS-C lenses: obviously this is an artificial limitation by Canon they could solve in a second if they like. If Canon full frame cameras had crop modes like Sony or Nikon, of course the use of such lenses would even be broader. With the new 4K crop that has no wide full frame alternative on the 5D4/1DX2, it would have been the right time to stop that stupid limitation!
> ...



Are you questioning the knowledge douglaurent has gained by attending the Dilbertland School of Factoids and Other Stuff? :-X


----------



## jayphotoworks (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Jack Douglas said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I'd like to see some of these in a Canon DSLR hybrid offering, but Canon has firmly decided that many of these features will only be offered in their C series lineup. I have 80/20 video vs stills ratio requirement of what I'm looking for in a body these days so I've completely written off all of Canon's offerings as it no longer fits my use case profile anymore, but for stills I would expect they still reign in supreme and they have a captive audience in this segment to show for it.

I've accepted that for hybrid work, currently the best offerings in the market comes from players like Panasonic, Sony and Olympus (based on the upcoming E-M1 II). If that is your target, you will enjoy a much better video experience including workflow using these systems. At least in my books, hybrid work falls along the lines of run-n-gun, ENG and wedding and in those cases, high end codecs and pro-level functionality isn't a priority. For example, a weekend warrior wedding videographer will not want to transcode 500mbps to Pro-Res 422 just to get a same-day-edit up by dinner. They would also probably not want to rig up an EVF just to be able to get peaking and some form of articulated monitoring for a better shooting experience either.

I think another issue with Canon is moving from hybrid work to prosumer/pro-level video work. In this segment, Canon's C product series doesn't compare well against Blackmagic and RED either. I still need to use my Shogun with the C300 II just to record RAW and someone else here mentioned that external recorders are only needed when consumer cameras have consumer grade codecs. I guess that argument somewhat falls down here.

That means that other than Canon EF glass that is widely supported on all of the competitor's platforms, Canon doesn't have anything really suitable for people in my segment, and it shows when I have a case full of Canon lenses and not a single Canon body. In this case, people like us probably aren't making much of an impact to Canon's bottom line, but even Sony throws a bone out there from time to time. I'm sure that A99II at least feeds the sentiment that Sony hasn't completely abandoned their A-mount.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> If nothing unusual happens, the 6D2 will be the last Canon full frame release for this decade.
> 
> On the 6D2, Canon probably will implement 1-2 of the 10-20 missing modern features the 5D4 or 1DX2 would have urgently needed, and that's it until 2020, after Hillary started her second term.
> 
> ...



it's nice to talk to someone with such indepth manufacturing, R&D and industry expertise.

May I ask who you work for?



btw .. there's a very good possibility that canon put things on hold until the ADC sensor and full frame DPAF sensor was ready. you really have no clue (nor do any of us) what the internal long term schedules are for canon.

4K really isn't interesting Canon into the next decade. if you had any idea on the industry you'd know why.


----------



## 9VIII (Sep 28, 2016)

App installation is the funniest part of that whole list.
Sony just uses that to make you pay for otherwise standard features... It's strictly there to take money for what in every other camera would be included in a firmware update.
Real progressive.


----------



## rrcphoto (Sep 28, 2016)

9VIII said:


> App installation is the funniest part of that whole list.
> Sony just uses that to make you pay for otherwise standard features... It's strictly there to take money for what in every other camera would be included in a firmware update.
> Real progressive.



actually I spit out my coffee at speedbooster, pixel shift.

considering if you actually knew what you are doing.. you could have been using that tech for the last 10+ years already.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

dak723 said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > If nothing unusual happens, the 6D2 will be the last Canon full frame release for this decade.
> ...



Dear friendly guy,
because i also rent out, I own app. 50 cameras including several Sony A7R2, A7S2, RX100IV, AX100, FS7 as well as Canon 5D4, 5DsR, 1DX2, 1DC, XC10 and many more, AND I have used all of them them a lot. 

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I WRITE WHAT I WRITE, because I did compare and know stuff. 

There are things to complain about Sony as well, but the list is A LOT shorter, and there pace of innovation is a LOT higher than Canon shows us since years. If you read this thread carefully, you will read detailed lists with facts about what's missing.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Do you hear anybody whining that smartphones don't have enough features? No, because they already include everything you need.
> ...



You are the whining person if someone would remove all those old 20+ currently missing features from your new Canon camera you will buy in the year 2025. Fanboys without criticism are the ones who hold back the progress for the majority of users.

The lack of many features is why so many photographers and filmmakers did already move to Sony and other brands in recent years, which clearly did hurt Canon's sales. Nearly all of them would have prefered to work with Canon, but looking at features and prices it made less sense. This fact has nothing to do with a personal opinion.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

dilbert said:


> I think you're right; a lot of the noise about 4K is from people who are obsessed with ticking boxes on spec sheets, not people who actually use the feature.



My lists of missing specs do only include personal experiences of use with the 5D4 or 1DX2 that ended in results you can describe with "damn, this feature is so great in the Sony A7RII/other camera, why didn't Canon come up with it"?


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

d said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Shameful: yes, this list is shameful for Canon, when you want to be the #1 on the market and charge prices of 4000+ euros for the cameras, while you're behind the competition regarding 20 important points. Historically Canon probably never has been that far behind in modern features, although they have just released their flagship products.
> ...



With this attitude you could become a very successful citizen in North Corea.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> d said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



Big congratulations to you, because If you think that my list of 20 features - from silent shooting to articulating screen etc - is completely irrelevant to you, it means you can already today buy THE perfect camera from Canon that can't be improved at any point in the future, aside from dynamic range and resolution!


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> Shameful: yes, this list is shameful for Canon, when you want to be the #1 on the market and charge prices of 4000+ euros for the cameras, while you're behind the competition regarding 20 important points. Historically Canon probably never has been that far behind in modern features, although they have just released their flagship products.
> Who is their main competitor? Because I don't see 20 points where they are behind against Nikon
> 
> APS-C lenses: obviously this is an artificial limitation by Canon they could solve in a second if they like. If Canon full frame cameras had crop modes like Sony or Nikon, of course the use of such lenses would even be broader. With the new 4K crop that has no wide full frame alternative on the 5D4/1DX2, it would have been the right time to stop that stupid limitation!
> ...



Too much effort to answer all this - and useless, because you are a happy Canon 6D/7D photographer that doesn't need anything else, which is fine. But for many time and the media environment went on, there is a requirement to do photos and videos with one camera - and if it's a bigger and more expensive camera than a phone, it better should deliver a lot more. For many the current offerings of Canon are not going far enough.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



Just did check it again. No Canon APS-C lens bottom could touch a Canon FF sensor. If Canon would like to do it, they could easily build it differently. Unfortunately long years ago some Canon marketing guru might have decided they sell more cameras and lenses with this limitation, and since then they have found no way out of it.


----------



## Lenscracker (Sep 28, 2016)

I have not yet compared the two. I have not used the pixel shift except for one time just to see if it worked. I think that if Lightroom comes up with a way to accommodate pixel shift I will use it more.
I am just using the K1 for my "beater" camera, or when I need low angle, or when I will be photographing in rain and snow. Wish I could find more full frame weather resistant lenses. I only use the 100mm right now.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> If you read this thread carefully, you will read detailed lists with facts about what's missing.



Yes, the amount of missing knowledge you've displayed in this thread is quite significant. 




douglaurent said:


> Big congratulations to you, because If you think that my list of 20 features - from silent shooting to articulating screen etc - is completely irrelevant to you, it means you can already today buy THE perfect camera from Canon that can't be improved at any point in the future, aside from dynamic range and resolution!



I didn't say they are all irrelevant to me, my point is that given that the lack of them has not seemed to affect Canon's market share to date, they are likely not of sufficient importance to the general camera-buying public to make a difference. Get it?


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > If nothing unusual happens, the 6D2 will be the last Canon full frame release for this decade.
> ...



4K isn't interesting to Canon, although they have just released a C300II, C700, 5D4, 1DX2, XC15 who all have 4K - while at exhibitions they are also showing their 8K prototype cameras that actually already work, and while their Tokyo home is the first main place for 4K broadcasting?


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

9VIII said:


> App installation is the funniest part of that whole list.
> Sony just uses that to make you pay for otherwise standard features... It's strictly there to take money for what in every other camera would be included in a firmware update.
> Real progressive.



It's obvious you don't know the Sony app store. Half of the apps is free. The other half is cheap. Much better than buying a Canon product that sees no feature improvement all its life. No logic will prove that something is better than nothing.


----------



## fallsong (Sep 28, 2016)

25MP? You got to be kidding!

How many camera made with odd number sensor? The guy who said he would be field tester told me it is 28MP.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > App installation is the funniest part of that whole list.
> ...



You're completely wrong with 10+ years - but if it was 10+ years, it would even be worse for Canon to be even more years behind.


----------



## NancyP (Sep 28, 2016)

Amusingly enough for the Doug Laurents of the world - I actually LIKE shooting manual focus lenses in manual mode. I don't really see myself upgrading from 6D to 6D2 unless the new camera had either 1. signficantly improved DR while maintaining or improving the already good low light performance or 2. that swivel screen - although that may not work so well for me as I thought, because I use an L bracket most of the time, and my ground macro shots are on tripod and I need both portrait and landscape orientation. The L bracket on my 60D constrains the swivel screen so that it opens out 180 degrees but can't be further swiveled. I guess I have to accept muddy knees as the price of making the photos I want.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > If you read this thread carefully, you will read detailed lists with facts about what's missing.
> ...



What does it help a photographer or filmmaker out in the field, when an articulating screen is missing, while Canon's marketshare is high? Will a photographer in a wedding church be more happy about a silent shutter or recordbreaking numbers for Canon? Will you be happy if 5 features are removed from your current camera, when you know Canon makes twice as much profit? Is this the Wallstreet Journal forum?


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 28, 2016)

NancyP said:


> Amusingly enough for the Doug Laurents of the world - I actually LIKE shooting manual focus lenses in manual mode. I don't really see myself upgrading from 6D to 6D2 unless the new camera had either 1. signficantly improved DR while maintaining or improving the already good low light performance or 2. that swivel screen - although that may not work so well for me as I thought, because I use an L bracket most of the time, and my ground macro shots are on tripod and I need both portrait and landscape orientation. The L bracket on my 60D constrains the swivel screen so that it opens out 180 degrees but can't be further swiveled. I guess I have to accept muddy knees as the price of making the photos I want.



Dear manual focus photographer lady,
here is the personally for you reduced list of missing features you would love and don't want to miss if you have experienced them:

- Sensor stabilization
- Focus Peaking
- Pixelshift
- EVF reviewing 
- Silent Photo Shooting
- Third wheel for ISO (through fully assignable buttons)


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...



Who said it would touch the sensor? I'm not sure if the problem is your lack of reading comprehension, or your lack of knowledge. 

Certain EF-S lenses (the -S originally referred to short back focus) protrude sufficiently into the mirror box that the mirror of a Canon FF camera will hit the back of the lens when if flips up to take a shot. 

Why don't you check it one more time - pop out the baffle on the back of an EF-S 10-22mm (set lens to 22mm, hook your finger into the hole, and pull), then mount the lens on one of your 1DX II bodies, set the lens to 10mm, and hold down the shutter for a nice, long 14 fps burst. I'm sure Canon will be able to install a new mirror assembly for you.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > Amusingly enough for the Doug Laurents of the world - I actually LIKE shooting manual focus lenses in manual mode. I don't really see myself upgrading from 6D to 6D2 unless the new camera had either 1. signficantly improved DR while maintaining or improving the already good low light performance or 2. that swivel screen - although that may not work so well for me as I thought, because I use an L bracket most of the time, and my ground macro shots are on tripod and I need both portrait and landscape orientation. The L bracket on my 60D constrains the swivel screen so that it opens out 180 degrees but can't be further swiveled. I guess I have to accept muddy knees as the price of making the photos I want.
> ...



Again - the 6D already has a very silent shutter.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Too much effort to answer all this - and useless, because you are a happy Canon 6D/7D photographer that doesn't need anything else, which is fine. But for many time and the media environment went on, there is a requirement to do photos and videos with one camera - and if it's a bigger and more expensive camera than a phone, it better should deliver a lot more. For many the current offerings of Canon are not going far enough.



In other words, you have no answer
As I said in my first post, I would be happy if a lot of the things you mention were included but I an't gonna switch systems because they are missing. 
The points I specifically mentioned are ones that are either meaningless or cannot be implemented (like putting Canon EF-S lens on FF body).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



Well, then...just give Canon your list. I'm sure they'll immediately address all 20 of your critically lacking features. 

The idea here is that it might help you understand _why_ Canon doesn't feel the need to include the features for which you or any other particular individual are clamoring. Not sure why you can't seem to grasp that features to include/exclude are a business decision, and in the case of Canon cameras, it's _Canon's_ business decision. 

All you can decide is whether or not to purchase Canon's products. Given that you've decided to purchase many of them and continue to do so, the message you personally are sending to Canon is that they're meeting your needs. Yes, I know you said you'd have bought more if they had features you wanted...but Canon doesn't give a crap, they have no way of confirming that (other than your word, which isn't even worth the electrons you're using to transmit it). You buy their stuff – along with their millions of other customers – and you confirm their business decisions.


----------



## Luds34 (Sep 28, 2016)

YellowJersey said:


> I personally don't care about dual card slots or the video features. If this camera brings the sensor improvements of the 1Dx mkII and 5D mkIV and has a better autofocus system than the 6D, then it'll probably be replacing my 5D mkIII. I have to say, I've been eying the A7r II quite a bit lately. But I'll wait until the 6D mkII is out before I make any decisions. I'm in a financial situation where I can't afford to gamble; I'd rather wait until all my options are out, and the reviews are in before making a decision.



Amen! I could care less about video features as well. Sure there a lot of little specs I would like to see improved, max flash sync, FPS, max shutter, etc. 

But the most important is the *focus sytem*. Improve that and I'm in. Sensor improvement would be 2nd on my list and I fully expect to see the 80D/1D/5D improvements so that should be a given.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> For many the current offerings of Canon are not going far enough.



But for many, many more the current offerings of Canon are doing just fine. Or people are stupidly buying cameras they believe are crap. Wait, didn't you just buy a 5DIV and a 1D X II?


----------



## fallsong (Sep 28, 2016)

Please delete my user name. Doesn't seem to be a healthy discussion place here.


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 28, 2016)

fallsong said:


> 25MP? You got to be kidding!
> 
> How many camera made with odd number sensor?



Joke is on you my friend: 5DII 21 MPIX. 50D 15 MPIX. D60 11 MPIX. ... (off hand - if you do your home work you can continue to add).


----------



## jedy (Sep 28, 2016)

If the 5DIV is anything to go by (or the Panasonic LUMIX GH4 for that matter), 4K will be next to useless (without an external recorder). It will require a crop factor to be able to record at a decent resolution, the record time will be very short and the file sizes huge. I'd rather the 6DII have a clean HDMI output but I very much doubt it considering the 5DIV (for now) doesn't have one. Canon are either in the DSLR video game or not - not this half arsed attempt they're giving us.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 28, 2016)

jedy said:


> Canon are either in the DSLR video game or not - not this half arsed attempt they're giving us.



They are definitely in it, the question is whose needs are they designing for. From the pro/semi pro (or very enthusiastic amateur) videographer clearly not them. But probably OK for the casual videographer ie a very very (very?) high percentage of the target market. And in leaving it at that they are keeping the price down while concentrating on other features Ones that cameras like Sony are not as good at).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> ...the question is whose needs are they designing for. From the pro/semi pro (or very enthusiastic amateur) videographer clearly not them. But probably OK for the casual videographer ie a very very (very?) high percentage of the target market.



Wait, let me get this straight. You're saying that Canon is _not_ designing cameras specifically for douglaurent, AvTvM, or any other forum-dwelling happysnapper? How can that possibly make good business sense?!?


----------



## Luds34 (Sep 28, 2016)

scyrene said:


> I think you're right; a lot of the noise about 4K is from people who are obsessed with ticking boxes on spec sheets, not people who actually use the feature.



ding ding ding ding! We have a winner!


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > ...the question is whose needs are they designing for. From the pro/semi pro (or very enthusiastic amateur) videographer clearly not them. But probably OK for the casual videographer ie a very very (very?) high percentage of the target market.
> ...



It doesn't does it!
A camera costing 3,500 bucks. Then incorporate 20 market leading functions taking the total cost to...what....4,000+? Alienate more of the core market and...watch douglaurent and AvTvM not buy it because it is too expensive. 
The Canon marketing men clearly don't know their job. Tch!


----------



## jedy (Sep 28, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> jedy said:
> 
> 
> > Canon are either in the DSLR video game or not - not this half arsed attempt they're giving us.
> ...


Well I use DSLR's on a rig setup (and a cine camera a couple of times) and I can tell you DSLR's like the GH4, A7s and the 5DIII are most definitely being used by the pro/semi pro videographer - especially with external monitor/recorders. I very much doubt Canon's full frame cameras are being bought by casual videographers as there are plenty of cheaper options. If Canon sees video as nothing more than amateur, why bother with 4K? Considering the cost of cine cameras, there is definitely a market for a decent DSLR video setup for the semi pro on a budget (DSLR's are no replacement for a good cine camera for a variety of reasons). This market is being lost to Panasonic and Sony. I'd be quite happy if Canon went the A7s route and designed a reasonably priced full frame DSLR that's optimised for video.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 28, 2016)

Luds34 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > I think you're right; a lot of the noise about 4K is from people who are obsessed with ticking boxes on spec sheets, not people who actually use the feature.
> ...



All of the complaining about adding video, or 4K, to DSLRs is coming from people who don't understand video, and can't grasp the benefits it brings even for photographers. Probably the same people who said "don't put this amateur auto-focus thing in my camera, I'm a pro I can manual focus" over 30 years ago.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 28, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



BTW ... we're seeing the same lame objection to AF in video coming for the video "professionals" today as we did from photographers 30 years ago. Now they, too, are wearing egg all over their faces as Canon is already providing video DPAF that beats anything a professional focus puller can do, and that's only the beginning of AF for video. 
It seems that a little imagination is too much to ask from some "professionals."


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 28, 2016)

Etienne said:


> BTW ... we're seeing the same lame objection to AF in video coming for the video "professionals" today as we did from photographers 30 years ago.



I had a huge problem with AF in SLRs/lenses 30 years ago – I couldn't afford it!


----------



## rfdesigner (Sep 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > BTW ... we're seeing the same lame objection to AF in video coming for the video "professionals" today as we did from photographers 30 years ago.
> ...



ditto.. even 10 years ago I was on MF film.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > BTW ... we're seeing the same lame objection to AF in video coming for the video "professionals" today as we did from photographers 30 years ago.
> ...



Lol ... that wasn't the complaint from pros of the time of course. Today Pros eek and ooohh over every improvement in AF performance for photography, when not long ago they scoffed-at and mocked anyone who talked about AF.


----------



## tron (Sep 28, 2016)

Etienne said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...


Well the first Canon AF camera was the EOS 620 in 1987 so 29 years ago ;D ;D ;D
It was my first Canon (a year later) and it had a sensor with one ... AF point only! Still, quite good


----------



## roxics (Sep 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > BTW ... we're seeing the same lame objection to AF in video coming for the video "professionals" today as we did from photographers 30 years ago.
> ...



That's the same problem I have with the Canon cinema series cameras. Which is why I'd love high quality video on their DSLRs. 

Imagine as a photographer that Canon builds a new DSLR with 8bit jpeg photos and no raw, no hot shoe for flashes, photos that can only be shot using a 1.7x crop of the sensor while it has a full frame sensor in it. Or it can shoot full frame but only photos that are 1/4th the resolution of your computer monitor. Then they only give you the LCD on the back to see with, no OVF/EVF. They also routinely leave out software features that makes things easier for you as a photographers. Features that pretty much every other manufacturer includes. On top of all that, they're asking $3500 for this new camera.

Meanwhile their competitors are giving you most of the specs you're looking and sometimes at less than half the price Canon is asking. Would you not be like "WTF are you doing Canon?"

Now you begin to understand the frustration that Canon DSLR video shooters face. 

Then we come on forums like this and people say "just buy a C series camera" as if we can all just afford $5000+ dollar cameras. That would be like me coming on here and telling you that because you want better IQ you should just spend $9000+ on a new digital medium format camera. Or we get "do you really need resolution that fills your whole monitor?" to which the answer is yes. Yes we do. Some of us already have 4K TVs and computer monitors and even those us that don't, understand we get better looking HD video from downsampled 4K video. It's shaper and more defined than the mushy Canon HD video that comes off most of their DSLRs. 

I get that not every photog wants video on their cameras. I get it. But until Canon starts building us dedicated video DSLRs at the same price points as photo DSLRs, you're going to have to put up with us.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 28, 2016)

tron said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



Okay, fair point (I hadn't noticed that cos I upgraded memory cards when I got the new camera, which meant the overall speed *felt* better).


----------



## scyrene (Sep 28, 2016)

dilbert said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Really? I don't think that applies to everyone at all. I'm a bit of a camera geek so I read stuff about other brands, but even then only up to a point - I reckon a lot of users (even pros!) don't pay much attention to what's going on outside their bubble. And if I don't use or want a feature, why should I care if it's not included? Honestly.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 28, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Do you hear anybody whining that smartphones don't have enough features? No, because they already include everything you need.



Actually yes. Read the comments under stories about the latest phone releases. Just as much moaning.



douglaurent said:


> Shameful: yes, this list is shameful for Canon, when you want to be the #1 on the market and charge prices of 4000+ euros for the cameras, while you're behind the competition regarding 20 important points. Historically Canon probably never has been that far behind in modern features, although they have just released their flagship products.



Newsflash: companies get to number one by knowing how to run a good business, not by shoving every possible feature into every product. Sorry! That's just life. And it's certianly not shameful.



douglaurent said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Shameful: yes, this list is shameful for Canon, when you want to be the #1 on the market and charge prices of 4000+ euros for the cameras, while you're behind the competition regarding 20 important points. Historically Canon probably never has been that far behind in modern features, although they have just released their flagship products.
> ...



Too much effort because you spewed out mostly a load of nonsense, and it was carefully picked apart. You've got nothing but a load of ridiculous complaints, some of which are physically impossible within the confines of the system.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 28, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Luds34 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



I'm not complaing, and have never complained, about the addition of a feature. I'm also not into complaining all over forums when a feature is *not* included. What we had a few months ago was a few vocal people telling us 4K was a must. Then it started being included in Canon bodies, and all of a sudden it's the wrong kind.

Features are great. Features done well even better. But there is a type of person that will moan regardless of what is included, because that is how they are. Either they can only see the drawbacks and not the opportunities, or else they enjoy whining - some also seem to have a sense of superiority ('stupid Canon, I know much better!').

Personally I find 4K intriguing, mostly for wildlife purposes. But I don't have enough interest or patience or indeed the computer power to deal with it at present. If I *did*, I'd get whatever device suited me best and not complain here (like, why should I care which brand is making the camera that's just right? So long as it's out there!). But that's just me.



Etienne said:


> Today Pros eek and ooohh over every improvement in AF performance for photography, when not long ago they scoffed-at and mocked anyone who talked about AF.



There's a bit of that, and some people are genuinely Luddite. But try not to confuse poking fun at the perpetually negative types with scoffing at/mocking people with a genuine interest or even need for something. But those people are generally out there finding solutions, not blaming Canon (or whoever) for not providing them with precisely what they want.


----------



## hubie (Sep 28, 2016)

Dual SD and 4K?


----------



## Etienne (Sep 28, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Luds34 said:
> ...



Speaking of 4K in DSLRs ... the photo-4K in the 5D4 should be a welcome gift to photographers who want to capture the precise moment. It is essentially 30 fps of 8MP jpegs, and you can freeze the moment with very high shutter speeds as well ... why aren't photographers jumping for joy at that? Sure it's not RAW (eventually it will be), but that's got to be useful to photographers.


----------



## asl (Sep 28, 2016)

roxics said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



Well said.
I hope this discussion will "soon" all be forgotten and more or less all cameras will have 4K and people will just have to deal will it.
Now where is that 8K?


----------



## YellowJersey (Sep 29, 2016)

Luds34 said:


> YellowJersey said:
> 
> 
> > I personally don't care about dual card slots or the video features. If this camera brings the sensor improvements of the 1Dx mkII and 5D mkIV and has a better autofocus system than the 6D, then it'll probably be replacing my 5D mkIII. I have to say, I've been eying the A7r II quite a bit lately. But I'll wait until the 6D mkII is out before I make any decisions. I'm in a financial situation where I can't afford to gamble; I'd rather wait until all my options are out, and the reviews are in before making a decision.
> ...



Someone replying to a comment I make and not telling me I'm wrong? I'm shocked. 

If Canon removed the AA filter, that would be a plus, too, but not totally essential. But I don't really see it happening. 

In all seriousness, though, the two biggest things that keep me from jumping ship to Sony are the ruggedness that a DSLR offers along with battery life. I most often shoot on hiking or cycling trips, so my gear needs to be able to take a beating, hence why I've stuck with the 5D for so many years. If the rumoured Sony A9 has a more robust body and can bridge the gap between DSLR and the A7 series, then I might very well take the plunge. The A9 wouldn't have to match DSLRs, but if it could improve beyond existing A7 cameras, it would be a plus.


----------



## d (Sep 29, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Luds34 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Emphasis mine.

Likewise all of the complaining about cameras missing 4K is coming from people who don't understand that there is a sizeable contingent of photographers out there (myself included) to whom 4K (or even HD) video adds absolutely no value or benefit whatsoever. I'd rather pay less money for a spartan stills camera than a premium for one chock-full of the latest "must-have" features that I'm never going to use.


----------



## d (Sep 29, 2016)

scyrene said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Too much effort to answer all this - and useless [...]
> ...



Amen.


----------



## IglooEater (Sep 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


DogLaurent is making Dilbert look smart. Well I'll be dogged. The bar is set low indeed. In the words of Eisntein, "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



DUDE; YES CANON APS-C LENSES CAN'T BE ATTACHED BECAUSE OF THIS; AND THIS IS WHY CANON SHOULD CHANGE THE MECHANICS OF NEW CAMERAS AND LENSES, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!! 

All other camera and lens manufacturers show it's possible to build it differently!!!


----------



## Etienne (Sep 29, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



The 5D4 photo-4K is much bigger than shooting reels of film to extract single frames. Those reels are shot at slow shutter speeds. The 5D4 can shoot 30 fps photo-4K at 1/4000 sec, delivering 8 MP JPEGS throughout the burst. That is a big deal. And so called dedicated photographers barely mention it so far.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 29, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > NancyP said:
> ...



A very silent shutter is not a 100% silent shutter. In the future I can call it zero noise shutter, and will ask all mirrorless camera manufacturers to stop calling their noiseless shutter "silent" because it seems to be misleading to some.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



My shopping message to Canon just was: I only bought 1 instead of 2 1DX2 and 1 instead of 3 5D4 - because of their lack of innovation, or better said: lack of including what their competitors already sell. 

People like you should finally realize that those missing features are not a favor to customers so they are not confused with too many new functions. The one and only purpose is to spread features over as many new products over the longest possible time, so you spend more money. They try to squeeze as much out of it as possible, so it's fair that customers give the pressure back and demand as many realistic features as possible.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > For many the current offerings of Canon are not going far enough.
> ...



For many, Donald trump is a nice person who speaks the truth and only wants the best for other people.

And wait, didn't I just buy 5 1DX2 and 5D4 camera units LESS than I would have bought?


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 29, 2016)

scyrene said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Do you hear anybody whining that smartphones don't have enough features? No, because they already include everything you need.
> ...



I listed 20 common, convenient features that Canon's competitors already sell - from body stabilization to articulating screen, from focus peaking to electronic viewfinder. That's all nonsense to you? That's all ridiculous complaints? So you basically say tens of thousands of customers who buy these other products because of these features, are idiots like me?

If these 20 features I listed are so dumb, why don't you ask Canon to remove them from their cheaper cameras or video products, wherever they already have implemented some of it themselves? Let's start and remove all articulating screens from all future Canon camera releases I would say! And let's hope they will never add sensor stabilization, who needs shit like this anyway, right?


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 29, 2016)

IglooEater said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



Well said, master engineer. Even when mankind is populating Mars, I am sure that Canon and nobody else on this planet would have found a formula that makes it possible to manufacture new full frame cameras and crop lenses that can be attached to one another. It simply will be impossible. Even more incredible, this combination will only be possible if any other name like "Canon" is displayed on such cameras and lenses. Thank god there are intelligent people like you who clear such things up for me.


----------



## Tugela (Sep 29, 2016)

Etienne said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



Those frames are 2 MP jpeg images however, which most people who take photographs would consider inadequate.

It is a feature that is of very limited use for the sorts of people who would buy this camera.


----------



## Tugela (Sep 29, 2016)

d said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Luds34 said:
> ...



Actually, you will pay more for your camera without those features because those who want them will go to other brands. Canon will increase the price you have to pay to compensate for the loss of those other customers.

It is an economy of scale thing. Even if you don't need it, the presence of it will make your camera cheaper because it will address a wider market than your specific application.


----------



## Tugela (Sep 29, 2016)

Luds34 said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > I think you're right; a lot of the noise about 4K is from people who are obsessed with ticking boxes on spec sheets, not people who actually use the feature.
> ...



Wtf??? People who want 4K use it. It is not a spec sheet thing. Are you guys really that ignorant or are you just being bloody minded.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 29, 2016)

IglooEater said:


> ...In the words of Eisntein, "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."



I think you just won this thread.


----------



## Zv (Sep 29, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Luds34 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Those people are called videographers and will buy the appropriate gear to shoot 4K video. I have no beef with that. My point is those videographers aren't looking to buy a 6DII for it's 4K ability so why does it matter? 

I guess there are those who do both video and stills. I would like to hear from those folk. Are they looking for their 4K fix from a 6D replacement? Is their current 6D inadequate in the video department? 

By all means buy a 5DIV and you could do both. Seems like Canon is aiming the 6D at a budget end. Now tell me, how many of these budget conscious shoppers are shooting cinematic 4K stuff using sophisticated software? 

The 4K in the 6DII will be crap. Let's be honest. So again my point. Why put it in if its going to be crap? 

What I (and others apparently) think is that it is SOLELY to tick it off on a spec sheet.


----------



## rfdesigner (Sep 29, 2016)

Zv said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Luds34 said:
> ...



It will keep the 6D selling through it's production lifetime.

In 3 years or so 4k will be so standard we'll all expect it and there'll be the exact same argument all over again about 8k or 16k in the 6DMKIII

Canon's going to NEED to put 4k into the 6D to keep it relevant beyond 2017.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 29, 2016)

scyrene said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody likes to buy an item that is glaringly deficient in some area when compared to another comparable product by another vendor.
> ...



I would say *especially pros*. There is a reason why flagship Canon and Nikon cameras tend to be conservative. Bells and whistles are much less likely to impress people who use a tool to earn a living than those who buy tools for their own entertainment.

But, overall, you are absolutely correct. The problem is that many on this forum are feature-obsessed. They are technology fetishists and have a very screwed-up idea that the latest gizmo loaded down with features is automatically better than a product that has fewer or older features. For the rational world, that's simply not true. Intelligent people buy products based on what their own needs and interests are and don't obsess over spec sheets, much less assume that a particular brand is "winning" based on who has the longest...er..."spec sheet."


----------



## eninja (Sep 29, 2016)

crashpc said:


> Another vote for m6.



Only if Canon provides a price lens for M-mount. <=35mm FL.


----------



## Sarpedon (Sep 29, 2016)

I've been lurking around this forum for a long, long time, waiting for news, learning new things and admiring people's pictures. 

So I just wanted to log in for once and say that the endless, nasty threads like this are why I don't participate. Someone posts a hyperbolic complaint, someone chimes in to say that person is a moron, and on and on it goes for pages. It's really awful.


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 29, 2016)

dilbert said:


> How do you get a 2MP JPEG (for HD) when 4K delivers 8MP jpegs? I must admit I don't follow you here.



4k/UHD = 3,840 × 2,160 = 8,294,400 px
HD/1080 = 1,920×1,080 = 2,073,600 px


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 29, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> My shopping message to Canon just was: I only bought 1 instead of 2 1DX2 and 1 instead of 3 5D4 - because of their lack of innovation, or better said: lack of including what their competitors already sell.
> 
> People like you should finally realize that those missing features are not a favor to customers so they are not confused with too many new functions. The one and only purpose is to spread features over as many new products over the longest possible time, so you spend more money. They try to squeeze as much out of it as possible, so it's fair that customers give the pressure back and demand as many realistic features as possible.



The message Canon heard was that you bought a 1DX II and a 5DIV. They neither know nor care about what you didn't buy, and by purchasing two high-end bodies, you told them, "Good job, Canon!"

People like you should finally realize that Canon doesn't give a rat's ass about what you don't buy. Feel free to demand that Canon incorporate the features you want. Then you can hold back the tide with your bare hands. Then count backwards from infinity. All of those have about equal chances of success. 




douglaurent said:


> DUDE; YES CANON APS-C LENSES CAN'T BE ATTACHED BECAUSE OF THIS; AND THIS IS WHY CANON SHOULD CHANGE THE MECHANICS OF NEW CAMERAS AND LENSES, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!!
> 
> All other camera and lens manufacturers show it's possible to build it differently!!!



Because other manufacturers do it differently, that's better? You prefer lenses being larger than they need to be? They could solve in a second the incompatibility of current EF-S lenses with FF bodies? They should come out with a _third_ mount comprising FF-compatible lenses that aren't really compatible except with crop modes? 

Shout some more, dude...it really helps convince people of your point and makes you sound super duper smart.


----------



## Ryananthony (Sep 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > My shopping message to Canon just was: I only bought 1 instead of 2 1DX2 and 1 instead of 3 5D4 - because of their lack of innovation, or better said: lack of including what their competitors already sell.
> ...



So I'm curious, is there anything canon could have added to 5div to make it a better tool for photographers or do you believe that it is the perfect camera?


----------



## 9VIII (Sep 29, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



You do realize that Canon has a 4 year development cycle for products like the 1D series, right?

Even if you were to give them your whole list, and they implemented it as fast as possible, you'd get a new 1D or 5D with those features in 2020.

And I wouldn't be surprised if they do have a lot of that stuff on the next round of bodies.
Congratulations! You're probably going to get what you want... in four years.
Chances are they've already written out the list of things to implement in the 1DX3, because Canon only releases the highest quality products, and quality takes time.


----------



## d (Sep 29, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Actually, you will pay more for your camera without those features because those who want them will go to other brands. Canon will increase the price you have to pay to compensate for the loss of those other customers.
> 
> It is an economy of scale thing. Even if you don't need it, the presence of it will make your camera cheaper because it will address a wider market than your specific application.



No, I don't think so. I'm pretty certain from my experiences in purchasing photographic equipment that higher end models with more numerous, often higher-end features, cost more than those lesser models that have fewer features.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 29, 2016)

dilbert said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Seriously? ? ? ? For the Canon: Lowest MP count of any Canon Full Frame, limited touchscreen, no tilt screen, bolt-on wireless, no 5D IV dual-pixel focus correction, no pop-up flash, No 7D focus point selection lever, compact flash card slot...to name a few.


----------



## Jopa (Sep 29, 2016)

unfocused said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



A popup flash on a high-end body? Really?


----------



## unfocused (Sep 29, 2016)

Jopa said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Well that's a ridiculously off-topic comment. The question was what about the flagship models is conservative. Not including a pop up flash is a conservative approach. Is it desirable? Not to me, but it is undeniably a conservative approach. And, by the way, do you think Canon's flagship crop body is NOT high-end?


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 29, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> I listed 20 common, convenient features No, you listed 20 omissions that were 'shameful' (a word you repeated) a strength of term that suggests these are essential rather than merely 'convenient' that Canon's competitors already sell companies with different priorities - from body stabilization to articulating screen, from focus peaking to electronic viewfinder. That's all nonsense to you? That's all ridiculous complaints? Show me where I said thsoe were 'ridiculous'. I actually said most of your comments were reasonable and then pointed out specific ones that where not (IMO as important as you find them to be or technically not possible  So you basically say tens of thousands of customers who buy these other products because of these features, are idiots like me? No - if you want those features buy a camera that does them. They are not that important to me so I buy Canon cameras because Canon does those things that are important to me and does them extremely well
> 
> If these 20 features I listed are so dumb, why don't you ask Canon to remove them from their cheaper cameras or video products straw man argument verging on the absurd, wherever they already have implemented some of it themselves? Let's start and remove all articulating screens from all future Canon camera releases I would say! And let's hope they will never add sensor stabilization, who needs S___ like this anyway, right? ditto


----------



## merefield (Sep 29, 2016)

The main thing I want to see is:

100% viewfinder!

I hate cropped viewfinders, you can waste so many pixels and have to crop which is a real pain in the workflow. I want to be able to compose accurately through the viewfinder, and would like NOT to have to revisit: the lack of a 100% viewfinder has nearly spoiled a number of my 'tight' shots and wasted a lot of time.

No 100% viewfinder? I won't be upgrading.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 29, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Those frames are 8 MP jpeg ... and they are plenty useful for anyone who might use this camera for capturing a critical moment... professionally


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 29, 2016)

9VIII said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



That's the whole point, without some positive surprise and logical acting by Canon it would take until the next decade until they offer features that many already consider basics for their work.

The best thing would be if Canon NEVER does release a camera with mirror again, as it hardly makes sense anymore. They should simply start by releasing mirrorless versions of the 5D4 and 1DX2, with - most important - the same old mount and no stupid new mount! This is something Canon could release next year, and they would be everyone's darling again.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 29, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Speaking of 4K in DSLRs ... the photo-4K in the 5D4 should be a welcome gift to photographers who want to capture the precise moment. It is essentially 30 fps of 8MP jpegs, and you can freeze the moment with very high shutter speeds as well ... why aren't photographers jumping for joy at that? Sure it's not RAW (eventually it will be), but that's got to be useful to photographers.



Yeah... For some reason, some features stay under the radar - people don't know how valuable they are until some time has passed. It would be interesting to see some real life examples of the results this produces. I'm sure it has its uses.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > My shopping message to Canon just was: I only bought 1 instead of 2 1DX2 and 1 instead of 3 5D4 - because of their lack of innovation, or better said: lack of including what their competitors already sell.
> ...



It seems at least you care what I think. And I know lots of people think and feel the same, they just don't spend time to write public lists. Without customer feedback, market leading companies tend to sleep. 

Canon does steal a lot of pros time these years because they need workarounds, and Canon makes a lot of pros carry around more stuff than necessary because you need 2-4 cameras instead of 1-2 to do allround jobs. So this is not just some random complaining, it's a business necessity to tell Canon not to hold back much needed features and products. 

Personally I don't even complain about the prices, and would pay $1000 more if a 5D4 had an articulating screen. I would pay lots more if it was mirrorless. They just need to release it.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 29, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Luds34 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



*Some* people. Do you honestly think every hyperbolic 'a camera is useles without 4K' post on here is born of a genuine need? Just like all the other complaints about DR or whatever - they are definitely 100% objective statements, and not at all twisted ideas of what features are valuable to most customers based on a lack of familiarity with how photography works? Come off it. Sure, there are plenty of reasonable people here who make a good case for 4K - and most people are not opposed to it even though it's now being portrayed that way. But you must accept that some people are just cluelessly whining about stuff they've never used (and never will).


----------



## scyrene (Sep 29, 2016)

Sarpedon said:


> I've been lurking around this forum for a long, long time, waiting for news, learning new things and admiring people's pictures.
> 
> So I just wanted to log in for once and say that the endless, nasty threads like this are why I don't participate. Someone posts a hyperbolic complaint, someone chimes in to say that person is a moron, and on and on it goes for pages. It's really awful.



It's a shame you're put off. I'm afraid that's how internet forums are though (and there are many worse than here) - although I would say, threads like this are at the sharp end. There are lots of friendlier ones where people post photos or ask for technical advice.

However, should posts that are demonstrably untrue be left unchallenged? There are people who will visit that might not know, and leave with incorrect assumptions. Is it better to be unfailingly polite whilst letting wrongheadedness prevail? Not that everything can be proven one way or another, of course.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 29, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> That's the whole point, without some positive surprise and logical acting by Canon it would take until the next decade until they offer features that many already consider basics for their work.
> 
> The best thing would be if Canon NEVER does release a camera with mirror again, as it hardly makes sense anymore. They should simply start by releasing mirrorless versions of the 5D4 and 1DX2, with - most important - the same old mount and no stupid new mount! This is something Canon could release next year, and they would be everyone's darling again.



Is mirrorless really 'basic for your work' or just that you like the way it works? 

How many times does this need repeating before you understand it instead of merely repeating what you have already said. Every manufacturer has a target market and Canon's key market is action, sports and wildlife.Pperformance of mirrorless autofocus systems is not yet as good as DSLRs and Canon will turn 1DX and 5D into mirrorless cameras as and when they have mirrorless AF technology to match that of DSLRs. 
No amount of wishful bleating by your or anyone else will change that.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > My shopping message to Canon just was: I only bought 1 instead of 2 1DX2 and 1 instead of 3 5D4 - because of their lack of innovation, or better said: lack of including what their competitors already sell.
> ...



New Canon APS-C that fit on FF will not be much larger because they are 5mm less long on the inside.

In general, the glass of any existing APS-C lens would not touch the mirror when it folds up to the corner of the sensor, which is what I meant. It's the plastics of the lens bottoms, and the thick mirror plate that will touch each other at some point. If it's build differently, it can work.

Even if Canon does not change the inside of their FF cameras, they could start to release new dedicated APS-C lenses that will fit to FF, which would be a great extra business for them. They could even only rehouse old glass and it might work.

Remember this topic comes from the fact that the 5D4 has an 1.74x crop in full frame mode, and if nothing extremely surprisingly happens, the 6D2 won't be much different. So Canon might not offer 4K FF filming until 2020 and just offers cropped 4K - but at the same time they don't have one cropped lens that is suitable for it. People would have to spend 3000 bucks for an 11-24/4, just to be able to go as wide as a 19mm equivalent. That can't be a serious modern camera/lens lineup.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 29, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Personally I don't even complain about the prices, and would pay $1000 more if a 5D4 had an articulating screen. I would pay lots more if it was mirrorless. They just need to release it.



Simple question: do you think Canon would gain more customers than it loses if they charged $1000 more having released the 5D4 as a mirrorless camera? Take a step back, calm down, and *think*. One of the biggest complaints on these forums and elsewhere has been the 5D4's high introductory price. I've seen no complaints about the presence of a mirror. Do you think there's such a huge unspoken groundswell of desire for a mirrorless equivalent that all those people would pay that much more for it?

Or can you actually see that your needs are not mainstream? That doesn't make them wrong. But releasing a camera that doesn't sell well because *most* people don't want to pay that much for what it is would be a poor business decision. Can you see that?


----------



## Memdroid (Sep 29, 2016)

Wow... Dougs requests borders on ridiculous.. Why someone want to put a crop lens on a FF body is beyond me.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 29, 2016)

Memdroid said:


> Wow... Dougs requests borders on ridiculous.. Why someone want to put a crop lens on a FF body is beyond me.



As far as I can tell he wants to put a crop lens on FF body so he can use the sensor in crop mode. Or add another step in PP by cropping it in post processing. 
Probably 'just because he can'.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 29, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Memdroid said:
> ...



Some people have been using APS-C lenses on Canon FF bodies for quite a while. The Tokina 11-16 f/2.8, 12-24 f/4, and 14-20 f/2 have all been used on full-frame bodies.

I am actually considering the Tokina 14-20 f/2 for both FF and Crop. At 20mm it is a full-frame f/2 prime, for dirt cheap. How can you beat that?

And you can use it on a C-series camera as a fast wide zoom, and on the 5D4 as a fast wide zoom for 4K.

There's no good reason for Canon to persist with the EF-S mount. After all these years they still haven't produced a set of reasonable EF-S primes. Abandon it, and produce any future APS-C lenses with an EF mount ... That's far more useful.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 29, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Abandon it, and produce any future APS-C lenses with an EF mount ... That's far more useful.



I am still confused as to why. Why not buy a EF lens instead? 
Tokina have put a FF lens assembly on a EF-S mount so why not ask them to make it in EF?

It comes down to the earlier discussion about sales. If people are happy buying EF-S cameras with EF-S mounts then why should Canon re-tool their production lines?


----------



## Luds34 (Sep 29, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Luds34 said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



Who said anything about video as a whole? We're speaking 4k specifically. Aka, 1080p is more then good enough for the "weekend warrior" who wants to grab some quick, family fun moments. The idea that one is taking photos one moment, then switches over to grab some video with the built in mic, whatever lens is mounted, NEEDS 4k video is borderline laughable. If one NEEDS 4k then they are shooting some serious content and are kitting out their camera as a serious video capturing rig. I'm the least serious person when it comes to capturing video. Aka, I'm the guy just grabbing some home videos. And even I got a dedicated little video rig, external mic in the flash hot shoe, L bracket for stability, zoom lens with IS attached at all times, etc.

In short, using your stills camera to grab some quick video here in there is fine, but at that point you're already operating in "amateur hour" and 1080p is more then good enough.


----------



## Sator (Sep 29, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> The best thing would be if Canon NEVER does release a camera with mirror again, as it hardly makes sense anymore. They should simply start by releasing mirrorless versions of the 5D4 and 1DX2, with - most important - the same old mount and no stupid new mount! This is something Canon could release next year, and they would be everyone's darling again.



This must be the dumbest statement I've read in a long time.

People seem to think that the mirror on a DSLR is some sort of fashion accessory about as photographically useful as a vanity mirror. If you've been using it to put on makeup all this time...it's time someone pulled you aside to tell you it actually serves an important function. It feeds light to a dedicated off-focal plane PDAF sensor. 

Mirrorless cameras should really be more honestly called AF-sensorless cameras because they have had this dedicated PDAF sensor ripped out of them. It is the height of foolishness to expect a camera to function as well without that extra AF-sensor.

Now, you can argue for the benefits of a fixed semi-translucent pellicle mirror of a kind Canon pioneered a long time ago, as a means of eliminating mirror shock, but to suggest that the mirror and the dedicated PDAF sensor are just pointless fashion accessories is abject ignorance. The bigger the rant and the more sweeping the certainty of the soapbox opinion, the more you can assured it is based on gross misinformation.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 29, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Abandon it, and produce any future APS-C lenses with an EF mount ... That's far more useful.
> ...



The Tokina lenses are EF mount NOT EF-S. 
They are made for APS-C sized sensors, but at the long end of the zoom they cover FF sensor, so people with FF cameras also use them on those cameras.
The EF-S mount itself offers no significant advantage.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 29, 2016)

Etienne said:


> The Tokina lenses are EF mount NOT EF-S.
> They are made for APS-C sized sensors, but at the long end of the zoom they cover FF sensor, so people with FF cameras also use them on those cameras.
> The EF-S mount itself offers no significant advantage.



I stand corrected (I should have known that as I have tried out a couple of Tokina lenses!)
I still fail to see why you would want to put on a FF body a third party lens that you can only use over part of the range. It just seems a very odd shaped stick with which to beat Canon.


----------



## Sator (Sep 29, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> Performance of mirrorless autofocus systems is not yet as good as DSLRs and Canon will turn 1DX and 5D into mirrorless cameras as and when they have mirrorless AF technology to match that of DSLRs.



Absolutely correct and well said. When you rip that dedicated off-focal plane DPAF sensor out, the camera AF simply doesn't function as well. It is not as good with shooting action. It is not as good at low light AF. It is not able to focus well with long telephoto lenses. There is EVF lag shooting action. 

The main reason people indulge in full frame mirrorless is as a novelty pursued as an end in itself. APS-C mirrorless has come a long way, but it will take some time before full frame mirrorless is able to match the performance of a current model DSLR.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 29, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > The Tokina lenses are EF mount NOT EF-S.
> ...



Seriously?
An enormous number of FF camera users also have crop sensor cameras.
You can't see the advantage of being able to use a 20mm f/2 (that costs only $600) on a full frame camera? You can't see the advantage of being able to carry that one lens and pop it onto a crop camera and get a 22-32mm f/2 ?

And how many FF 20mm f/2 lenses do you know about? 

Canon could produce just as versatile a lens in EF mount, but not in EF-S because it will not even attach to the FF body. They did this because they designed EF-S lenses to protrude too far into the camera body.


----------



## d (Sep 29, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Canon could produce just as versatile a lens in EF mount, but not in EF-S because it will not even attach to the FF body. They did this because they designed EF-S lenses to protrude too far into the camera body.



Another way to look at it is that Canon designed EF-S lenses to protrude exactly the right distance into their crop-sensored EF-S mount bodies...


----------



## Sarpedon (Sep 29, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Sarpedon said:
> 
> 
> > I've been lurking around this forum for a long, long time, waiting for news, learning new things and admiring people's pictures.
> ...



Oh not at all. It's the tone and content of those responses I object to. There's just no need to insult people when you're disabusing them of a misconception, there's no need to be curt and condescending. It seems to me that the people who post those hyperbolic comments (Cannon is terrible because of X!) tend to be new or newish to this forum. So why not calmly point out that they're wrong (or calmly say that you disagree when it's not a matter of fact) and ask them to post more carefully in the future? And if the newbies come in screaming at people and calling them names they should be warned and then banned if they keep at it. I also think that there are some people in this forum - some of the more prolific posters - who either get off on condescending to other people or who can't control their own anger because they've had these arguments so many times. And, frankly, I think the moderators could do a better job. 

I get that this is an internet forum and I'm basically pissing into the wind, but it's just frustrating because this is the best place for Canon info on the web, and there are a lot of good photographers and nice people here, and the newbies and a few of the folks who post constantly are ruining it.


----------



## d (Sep 29, 2016)

Sarpedon said:


> Oh not at all. It's the tone and content of those responses I object to. There's just no need to insult people when you're disabusing them of a misconception, there's no need to be curt and condescending. It seems to me that the people who post those hyperbolic comments (Cannon is terrible because of X!) tend to be new or newish to this forum. So why not calmly point out that they're wrong (or calmly say that you disagree when it's not a matter of fact) and ask them to post more carefully in the future? And if the newbies come in screaming at people and calling them names they should be warned and then banned if they keep at it. I also think that there are some people in this forum - some of the more prolific posters - who either get off on condescending to other people or who can't control their own anger because they've had these arguments so many times. And, frankly, I think the moderators could do a better job.
> 
> I get that this is an internet forum and I'm basically pissing into the wind, but it's just frustrating because this is the best place for Canon info on the web, and there are a lot of good photographers and nice people here, and the newbies and a few of the folks who post constantly are ruining it.



The opinion is held that many of the "newbies" here are likely repeat members reposting under new user names in order to antagonise other members or promote their preferred, alternative branded cameras. The more suspicious might suggest some of them are paid by other camera companies to do so.

I believe you can block posts from members you don't wish to read, so perhaps you could try that feature?

Cheers,
d.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 29, 2016)

Etienne said:


> They did this because they designed EF-S lenses to protrude too far into the camera body.



And they did that to enable them to make smaller lenses and take full advantage of the fact that they needed to project a smaller image circle. In fact, APS-C is hobbled by its original need to mount EF lenses, back in the day there were no decent EF-S lenses and the mount had to be big enough to take EF lenses.
So actually you have the history the wrong way round.


----------



## albron00 (Sep 29, 2016)

It needs multi-controller (joystick).


----------



## Luds34 (Sep 29, 2016)

merefield said:


> The main thing I want to see is:
> 
> 100% viewfinder!
> 
> ...



Huh, is it that bad on the current 6D? I'll have to look it up now. I guess I've never been too upset that I've ended up getting a bit more in my picture then what I saw through the viewfinder. Worse case if it captures a tiny bit of something I didn't want/expect, a tiny crop in post fixes the issue.


----------



## FECHariot (Sep 29, 2016)

Etienne said:


> I am actually considering the Tokina 14-20 f/2 for both FF and Crop. At 20mm it is a full-frame f/2 prime, for dirt cheap. How can you beat that?



The Sigma 20/1.4 Art is a stop faster and is made to cover the FF sensor. Plus even though the crop Tokinas will cover the FF size at the long end of the zoom, sharpness really falls off a cliff in those corners. Plus the Sigma has a proper AF motor with full time override instead of that ancient clutch micro motor drive crap from Tokina. Unless you need filters and don't want to adapt a Lee filter system to the bulbous Sigma, I see little reason to go with the Tokina there.


----------



## merefield (Sep 29, 2016)

Luds34 said:


> merefield said:
> 
> 
> > The main thing I want to see is:
> ...



97%, leaving an annoying 'bezel' around the edge which might include enough distracting extraneous artifacts that you need to crop, or simply not focus on the subject enough. It's enough to be annoying, especially if you are fussy about composition, that's what I've found.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 29, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > The Tokina lenses are EF mount NOT EF-S.
> ...



I think the motivation for some is, the 4K mode on these new cameras is ~the same field of view as the APS-C sensor. So mounting an APS-C EF 3rd party lens means you're using the full range of the zoom without vignetting, mostly because they tend to be cheaper than the equivalent (Canon own brand especially) FF EF lenses. As for beating on Canon for producing EF-S lenses at all, that's an odd one. It's a way of making cheaper, lighter amateur lenses for the lower end crop DSLRs, which is a legitimate and apparently lucrative market.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 29, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > They did this because they designed EF-S lenses to protrude too far into the camera body.
> ...



The EF-S lenses are not smaller for the same function. I owned the EF-S 18-55 f/2.8 IS and the EF 24-105 f/4L IS. The 24-105 performed better on the 5D than the 18-55 did on the 40D in every respect. I never saw any APS-C size or weight advantage once you attached a similarly performing lens.
My meaning was that the design intention of EF-S required the lens to protrude into the body. 
Any way ... there's no advantage to the EF-S lenses, and plenty of disadvantages, as noted wrt the Tokina wide zooms.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 29, 2016)

FECHariot said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I am actually considering the Tokina 14-20 f/2 for both FF and Crop. At 20mm it is a full-frame f/2 prime, for dirt cheap. How can you beat that?
> ...



It may not be the lens to choose if your primary purpose is 20mm on FF, but it's a free bonus. And it does a great job for wide zoom on APS-C, it's primary purpose, which just happens to be exactly what you need for 4K on the 5D4.
So, one lens on the 5D4 gives 20mm f/2 prime FF performance, and 22-32 mm f/2 zoom for 4K video. Can't do that with the Sigma


----------



## scyrene (Sep 29, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



Price?


----------



## unfocused (Sep 30, 2016)

Sarpedon said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Sarpedon said:
> ...



_*(Emphasis added for later comment.)
*_
First,

This site really represents about five forums.

1) A rumors site. The core purpose of the site is for the founder to share information he receives about upcoming Canon products. That's what draws most people to the site initially. But with a grand total of four full frame bodies and two enthusiast/professional APS-C bodies, combined with typical refresh rates of four years or so, there simply isn't enough material to draw people to the site every day -- which is what it needs to remain a viable business. Right now we are between refresh cycles and people don't have much to talk/speculate about so the discussions tend to get redundant and esoteric;

2) A photo sharing site. This site is hardly unique in that aspect and there are other sites that do it better. I suspect that for most readers, this is the least compelling reason to visit this site. 

3) A review site. This is also redundant to what many other sites offer and with no insult meant to reviewers, other sites do it better. 

4) An advice site. People come here with questions and are seeking peer-based suggestions. Some of the sites most prolific commenters are also heavy users of technology and, to their credit, are willing to offer advice and share their experience. This is probably one of the most valuable aspects of the site, but like the rumors, most of us aren't in need of constant advice, so while valuable, it's not going to sustain the traffic here.

5) A debating society. I have no doubt that this is what attracts most people and keeps people interested. Like academia, the arguments are so vicious because the stakes are so low. Nothing that is debated here is of any real consequence and it's important to keep that in mind. I suspect that many of those who argue the most know they are at times being ridiculous. But, this is a safe place to act out aggression and spar with one another. Occasionally, we get someone who has serious mental health issues and that soon becomes apparent. In those cases, I strongly urge others to dial it back a few notches. There have been cases where that did not occur, but I believe in recent years, people have generally been on better behavior when we realize that someone has serious, rather than the mild and manageable mental illness that afflicts most of us.



In reference to the "emphasis added" points in your post. I am absolutely opposed to heavy-handed censorship by moderators attempting to force everyone to play nicey, nice with one another. Over the course of human history censorship has been invoked in far too many situations and the end result is always bad. We have had overzealous moderators in the past and I am pleased that the current set of moderators are willing to let most of these debates play out without excessive interference. Everyone here is an adult and if the relatively mild tone of the debates here offends someone, they probably don't belong on the internet. Let's leave the relentless squashing of perceived micro-agression to academia.


----------



## FECHariot (Sep 30, 2016)

Etienne said:


> FECHariot said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



If 4K is important to you and are using the 5D4, then that is a valid point. Still given how crippled the 5D4s 4K system is, I think I would personally just grab the 20mm Siggy and shoot 1080P. 

However since this is a 6D2 thread and it is much more likely that I'll own a 6D2 than a 5D4 at some point, I hope that the 6D2's 4K system is a better implementation than the 5D4 where you don't need to buy crop lenses from third party just to get reasonably priced wide angles for video. Then again, if the 6D2 doesn't have 4K at all, it won't stop me from buying one as long as the other specs and pricing checks off my needs.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 30, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



Not for lenses in my experience. The closest two comparable lenses are the EF-S 18-55 f/2.8 IS and the original 24-105 f/4L IS. They were around the same price when I had them both, but the 24-105 was better in every way.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 30, 2016)

Etienne said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



Oh right. Well, better in every way except it's a stop wider. It definitely beats the 24-105 at f/2.8!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 30, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Oh right. Well, better in every way except it's a stop wider. It definitely beats the 24-105 at f/2.8!



Not really, at least when comparing the 17-55/2.8 on APS-C with the 24-105/4 on FF. The former is equivalent to a 27-88mm f/4.5 focal length and DoF, and the 1.3-stop ISO advantage of FF more than counters the 1-stop wider aperture. So, all you really gain with the 17-55/2.8 is activation of the center f/2.8 high-precision AF point. 

But compare the EF-S 10-22mm with the 17-40L, similar in price but the 10-22 is optically far better.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 30, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > That's the whole point, without some positive surprise and logical acting by Canon it would take until the next decade until they offer features that many already consider basics for their work.
> ...



Why shouldn't mirrorless autofocus be as good? It's just a question of time that Sony will merge their A99II technology with the A7RII. Nobody has build a large body mirrorless camera with the right processing power yet, but one can assume from recent years that Sony will release it 3 years earlier than Canon, which again brings us to the year 2020 unless Canon wakes up.

If you ask why mirrorless is basic, you are probably shooting photos only and never did work with a mirrorless camera. There is an endless list of advantages even for photo people, from zero noise shooting to checking your results through the viewfinder in bright sunlight, instead of the monitor.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 30, 2016)

scyrene said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I don't even complain about the prices, and would pay $1000 more if a 5D4 had an articulating screen. I would pay lots more if it was mirrorless. They just need to release it.
> ...



It is funny when consumers argue as if they were the company and defend everything the company didn't achieve or did wrong as if the company was a relative, and don't seem to be interested in getting products with better features themselves - while the company shows no compassion for the consumer at all when it comes to prices, strategic feature limitations etc.

And yes, people who didn't work with and understood a well adjusted mirrorless camera will mostly not complain that Canon doesn't have a serious offer yet. That's why it takes years until the obvious progress happens, and Canon is happy to sell you 3 cameras over the next 8 years, instead of one you could use now and keep for 8 years.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 30, 2016)

Memdroid said:


> Wow... Dougs requests borders on ridiculous.. Why someone want to put a crop lens on a FF body is beyond me.



BECAUSE THE 5D4 HAS A 1.74x CROP IN 4K VIDEO MODE AND THE ONLY CANON LENS WHO THEN COVERS A 14-20MM FF EQUIVALENCY IS THE HEAVY NO FILTER THREAD 3000$ 11-24/4 LENS.


----------



## douglaurent (Sep 30, 2016)

Sator said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > The best thing would be if Canon NEVER does release a camera with mirror again, as it hardly makes sense anymore. They should simply start by releasing mirrorless versions of the 5D4 and 1DX2, with - most important - the same old mount and no stupid new mount! This is something Canon could release next year, and they would be everyone's darling again.
> ...



Canon is building mirrorless cameras since ages. The current models are called C100II, C300II and C700. Canon did show their new 8K/36MP mirrorless camera at photokina. All those mentioned cameras do have the best and outstanding autofocus, that is also the first large sensor autofocus you can actually use for face-tracking etc.

So with the state of technology in 2016, please tell me what makes the mirror important and inevitable in the future.


----------



## d (Sep 30, 2016)

dilbert said:


> But the problem for others *is that if it is indeed isn't the same person again and again* then the increasing number of new people upset with Canon upsets their mindset regarding Canon. Since various people want to believe the Sun effectively shines out of Canon's a*** then it is easier to think of a growing number of people that are discontent with Canon to be the one person than accept that multiple people may be disappointed with Canon's products.



I really want to understand what you're trying to say, Dilbert, but my head is hurting trying to understand the statement I've highlighted above!

Let me be clear that I don't necessarily agree with the viewpoints I reported - I was just offering an explanation to Sarpedon as to why some members might react more aggressively to inflammatory "newbies", instead of with a polite, measured response as suggested by Sarpedon.

d.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 30, 2016)

dilbert said:


> d said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



This is rational.



dilbert said:


> But the problem for others is that if it is indeed isn't the same person again and again then the increasing number of new people upset with Canon upsets their mindset regarding Canon. Since various people want to believe the Sun effectively shines out of Canon's a*** then it is easier to think of a growing number of people that are discontent with Canon to be the one person than accept that multiple people may be disappointed with Canon's products.



This is not. 

Being extremely generous, there are maybe 20 people complaining about Canon. There are consistently about a half-dozen regulars, counting you. That's been stable for years. There is no "growing number of people that are discontent." There is some churn among the complainers -- new ones come and old ones drop out, but the total number is pretty stable.


----------



## Alex_M (Sep 30, 2016)

*Sabotage* is a deliberate action aimed at weakening the CR Forum (A.M.) through subversion, obstruction, disruption or destruction. In the CR Forum (A.M.) setting, sabotage is the conscious withdrawal of efficiency generally directed at causing some change in the forum (A.M.) conditions.

One who engages in sabotage is a saboteur. Saboteurs typically try to conceal their identities because of the consequences of their actions.

Sabotage is sometimes called tampering, meddling, tinkering, malicious pranks....


----------



## unfocused (Sep 30, 2016)

Alex_M said:


> *Sabotage* is a deliberate action aimed at weakening the CR Forum (A.M.) through subversion, obstruction, disruption or destruction...



Why would anyone try to "sabotage" something of no value or consequence?


----------



## Alex_M (Sep 30, 2016)

to destroy brand confidence by diminishing and outright skewing forum ecosystem. CR forum is an invaluable resource for many who seek to learn about true capabilities of the Canon platform.



unfocused said:


> Alex_M said:
> 
> 
> > *Sabotage* is a deliberate action aimed at weakening the CR Forum (A.M.) through subversion, obstruction, disruption or destruction...
> ...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 30, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Sarpedon said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



You can't really blame newbies who come in and make egregiously ridiculous statements without a shred of fact knowledge to support them, then refuse to admit they were wrong. After all, they're just following the behavior pattern of someone with 6000 posts.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 30, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> It is funny when consumers argue as if they were the company and defend everything the company didn't achieve or did wrong as if the company was a relative, and don't seem to be interested in getting products with better features themselves - while the company shows no compassion for the consumer at all when it comes to prices, strategic feature limitations etc.



It is funny when people ignore the realities of business and the drivers thereof, and defend their own opinion as if it actually meant anything to a large corporation. 

It is funny when people demand a set of features – and have been doing so for years – without bothering to consider the business reasons their desires are ignored. 

It is funny when those people become so frustrated they are reduced to shouting to try and get their points across, like an imbecile standing on a soapbox.*

Meanwhile, other people have the ability to consider their wants and dissatisfaction in the larger business context. Sadly, those unwilling or unable to comprehend that business context seem to end up acting like petulant children...shouting, proclaiming doom because they and the infinitesimal number of people they know are dissatisfied, and generally sounding rather foolish. 

*refrrences to current American politics are unintentional.


----------



## Alex_M (Sep 30, 2016)

There are quite a few of those around this place lately and they are rather loud and annoying. do not underestimate what pack of well fed, pestering trolls is capable of... not everyone has a time to sieve through megatons of verbal rubbish left behind by this crowd and get eventually malformed ideas about how good or how bad a system is. 
Trolls are a mighty power to be reckoned and dealt with.



dilbert said:


> Alex_M said:
> 
> 
> > to destroy brand confidence by diminishing and outright skewing forum ecosystem. CR forum is an invaluable resource for many who seek to learn about true capabilities of the Canon platform.
> ...


----------



## Hillsilly (Sep 30, 2016)

The 6D is over four years old? Wow!! Seems like just yesterday that we were all annoyed by how the feature-set compared poorly to the 5D3 (despite being a cheaper, more accessible camera). I'm looking forward eagerly to 2017 so that we can re-hash the same arguments.


----------



## Redline (Sep 30, 2016)

Miss my 6D. Better/more AF, dual card slot and definitely the articulating screen would be a bonus doing astro when manually focusing with the live view. 60D was great for that (minus the noise...).


----------



## Luds34 (Sep 30, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Sarpedon said:
> ...



Hah! I know I shouldn't be adding any fuel to the fire, but this did make me chuckle outloud. 

I have no idea if this is true or not, but a man from Canada once told me the French have a saying, "If you're not good for a laugh, you're good for nothing." I'm a big believer in a little self-deprecation. Years ago in college, sitting in big lecture halls, when I'd ask a question, I'd usually preface it with something like, "I'm sure I'm the only idiot who doesn't follow, but could you explain...". Typically got a little laugh, broke the ice, made everyone feel a little more comfortable learning. So yes, don't ever take yourself too seriously, make sure you can laugh at yourself a little, makes life a lot less stressful. 

Back on topic. If the new 6D is anything like I'm expecting it to be, then this will be the camera for me. I don't even need much changed/improved from the current 6D. I can work with almost all of it's limitations, lower specs, etc. I just miss being able to use Ai Servo/tracking with the framing the way I want it, aka being able to track focus on the head in the top third of the viewfinder. Fingers crossed for a 40+ point system, but even a 7D/70D 19 point system would be a godsend! I'm very happy comfortable with my collection of glass so all I'm missing is this camera. 

Well, I do spend too much time on this forum so I obviously have insecurities about my 17-40L so I may try to upgrade that over the winter.


----------



## NancyP (Sep 30, 2016)

Yes, the articulating screen is a help for tripod (telescope) use where the camera is in a peculiar position. Ground shots for macro, or focusing when camera is above your head.


----------



## ishdakuteb (Sep 30, 2016)

dilbert said:


> ... Since various people want to believe the Sun effectively shines out of Canon's a*** then it is easier to think of a growing number of people that are discontent with Canon to be the one person than accept that multiple people may be disappointed with Canon's products.



And you are one of them, but still being here complaining about it for number of years? Thought that you are already switch? If so, what is the benefit of keep complaining?



dilbert said:


> One person cannot destroy brand confidence, only a manufacturer can do that by producing weak products.



Week products? You DO NOT EVEN KNOW how to compose a right image, light, or even post process your images. What makes you qualified in saying this? A year ago, you challenged me to photograph landscape. I did switch and am already in mid-level of it and still keep learning. I wonder where you are now in your desired topic.

Or you just like some others want a mirrorless from Canon? to aid you to see how your image look like before clicking your shutter? to aid you in not getting many of under and over expose images due to lack of knowing light or choosing light?


----------



## ritholtz (Sep 30, 2016)

Looks like still no in built flash. It is *******. Think what happened to Kodak and Nokia.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Sep 30, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > It is funny when consumers argue as if they were the company and defend everything the company didn't achieve or did wrong as if the company was a relative, and don't seem to be interested in getting products with better features themselves - while the company shows no compassion for the consumer at all when it comes to prices, strategic feature limitations etc.
> ...



What you have to understand is that there is great value in listening to some of the anecdotes from people who actually use these products. I for one definitely want to hear what the camera can or cannot do as this forms my opinion for purchasing an alternative product or not. Likewise, I also provide reasons why I will purchase a product or why not based on my experiences with working with many different systems. Not all of us are armchair quarterbacks, and some of us actually live and breathe this stuff everyday. 

When you consistently play the market share and/or business acumen card, it grows weary because it does not add much value to this dialogue other than "I don't really have to argue with you because the company knows best and you should kneel.." This is great for forum fodder, but not much value otherwise.

You don't have to validate dissenting opinions, but to accept that it exists, gauge that trend and determine when you may want to act upon that information.

Think of this way, if Canon in 5 years reached market share parity with Nikon and Sony like Toyota has with VW and GM, will that extra 1.5% market share held by shooters like myself be relevant and what card will you play at that point?

Food for thought..


----------



## dak723 (Sep 30, 2016)

jayphotoworks said:


> What you have to understand is that there is great value in listening to some of the anecdotes from people who actually use these products. I for one definitely want to hear what the camera can or cannot do as this forms my opinion for purchasing an alternative product or not. Likewise, I also provide reasons why I will purchase a product or why not based on my experiences with working with many different systems.



There is great value in getting information from folks who actually use the products. That is by far the best information. Which is why many of us are increasingly frustrated by users who continually promote and push products (Sony for the most part) that they have never used. If all you have ever done is read spec sheets and form your opinion based on those and internet reviews, then your opinion is not really wanted or appreciated. I understand that we live in the "twitter and social media era" - where uninformed and even completely ignorant opinions are dished out constantly, but it would be tremendously beneficial to all CR users and visitors if each poster tells us if their comments are based on personal experience or not.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 30, 2016)

jayphotoworks said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



I thoroughly understand the value of anecdotes, particularly my own anecdotal experiences. 

What _you_ should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data. If someone shares an anecdote in the context of how a feature (or lack thereof) impacts their workflow, that has relevance to them and perhaps to others with a similar workflow. That's a basis for discussion and for learning. All good. 

*But*...when they extrapolate from 'this issue affects me' to 'this issue affects lots of people' or 'this issue affects everyone', they are pretending their own anecdotal experience is actually data...but it is not. When they then further extrapolate (as they often do) to 'this is really a problem for Canon' or 'everyone will switch to Sony and Canon is *******'...that's when they need to be slapped hard in the face with reality. Reality, in this case, is that Canon knows a lot more about the needs and wants of their user base, and has actual data to back up their conclusions and actions.


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 1, 2016)

dak723 said:


> jayphotoworks said:
> 
> 
> > What you have to understand is that there is great value in listening to some of the anecdotes from people who actually use these products. I for one definitely want to hear what the camera can or cannot do as this forms my opinion for purchasing an alternative product or not. Likewise, I also provide reasons why I will purchase a product or why not based on my experiences with working with many different systems.
> ...



Personally I use Canon, Sony, Nikon and Pansonic products depending on the situation, and write about what could be improved in all of these forums. Like in the Sony forum about the confusing Sony menus, which Sony could make better by just using the free menu registration system of Canon - while Canon could implement the unlimited button assignment that most Sony cameras have.

The current frustration with Canon is just that the wish list got a little bit too long compared to the other brands, while Canon is the brand that I historically would always prefer to use first. This frustration can be read all over the net, and can be heard when talking to people who experienced the differences as well.

As far as I hear it, Canon dealers and local Canon distributors are also not happy and have to live with more and more regulations and worse conditions through decisions made in Japan. But of course that's not on the net because no employee can or will openly talk or write about that. There are also signs that since the A7RII Canon is worried by the performance of Sony, while for decades they only had to care about the smaller Nikon brother. There never will be scientific facts or polls about all of this.


----------



## time123 (Oct 1, 2016)

jayphotoworks said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



It's actually quite simple and I can't believe I actually have to explain this to you but don't you know that once a company holds the largest percentage of a market share it stays that way indefinitely?

For full disclosure I am the forum moderator at kodakrumors.com.


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 1, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> jayphotoworks said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Looking at all experiences of this millennium regarding large corporations that failed on multiple levels: is it really safe to say "Big Canon knows what they are doing", "they know their market" etc. and trust them in their decision to release dozens of options and features over the next 10 years, that other brands already sell? 

Even if Canon's product strategies are the best for Canon's current profits, how will that help them in the longterm future, when more and more customers get the feeling that Canon artifically limits camera products, while other brands try harder to come up with their best? 

If the claim is "Canon does not care about the complaints of a single customer", why should any single customer care about Canon and their profit maximizing strategies? 

In many situations the workflow with Canon cameras is slower and more complicated as necessary in the year 2016, and the logistics are worse than necessary because you need to carry around more camera models to do multiple tasks. Only this counts for many and more and more single customers, unfortunately too few might see a chance to change that by telling it on the net.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 1, 2016)

YAPODFC. :


----------



## pokerz (Oct 1, 2016)

Canon #1 DSLR seller, why so early to release another 6d?


----------



## Alex_M (Oct 1, 2016)

dilbert,

wrong forum, sir! here, I will help you on your way out:

sony alpha rumors com/new-firmware-uddate-one-month-will-replace-current-sonys-menu-system/

Enjoy your sony alpha rumors in moderation.



dilbert said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 1, 2016)

dilbert said:


> but the interesting observation to make is that if the rumors are true then it is again representative of a vendor that is responding to market feedback and one that is very reluctant to.



What is your evidence that Canon is reluctant to respond to market feedback? Them not delivering specific features that a handful of people whine about on Internet forums like this one? :

It's quite obvious that Canon _does_ respond to market feedback...and equally obvious that people on this and similar forums are not representative of their market.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 1, 2016)

jayphotoworks said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



Very well said...


----------



## tcmatthews (Oct 1, 2016)

Just had a really long week at work. Hoping to see discusion about a rumored 6D Mark II. But it looks like this went off the rails some were as usual. But as to the 6D II I am hoping to see 

tilt flip screen
auto focus system similar to 5D III
4k in some form
at least one sd uhs-ii slot
24-32 MP sensor
similar sized body


I expect all high end Canon cameras to have the dual pixel auto focus. If it is around 25 MP I am likely to wait and purchase it refurb. In all honesty more MP is better as long as low light is not sacrificed to much. If it comes in around 30 and does not have an AA filter I will buy it immediately. 

Regardless my next primary camera is likely a Sony A9 or whatever the Sony A7rII successor is. I really want a 40+ MP full frame body in a camera the size of a Rebel T6s. And there is no real reason not to buy a Sony given how good Canon lens focus through an adapter.

My A7 II cannot drive my tamron 150-600's auto focus and I would like a full frame camera for when the light gets low. I simply hate the size of 5D bodies. If I had a do over and known the 80D was coming out I would have waited to instead of buying my Canon 7D II.

Ops it seems like I am going off the rails.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 1, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> What _you_ should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.



That is actually not quite the case. If the anecdote is shared in a forum like this, it represents a form of "unstructured data". Companies invest a great deal of money and effort to make that data accessible, understandable and actionable. Ergo "posted" anecdotes = data.


----------



## Orangutan (Oct 1, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > What _you_ should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.
> ...


I'd love to know where you got that. Certainly, the Internet has spawned tools to detect trends in posts -- I'll grant you that much. But you're missing two essential concepts: FB posts about the latest gossip do not equal willingness to buy; i.e., trending data is a very weak indicator of purchasing intent. Second, trending data is no match for the direct customer survey data collected by Canon, Nikon, et al.

At best, the correlation between your anecdote and real data is as near to nothing as makes no odds.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 1, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



People have a tendency to fabricate information to suit their purposes. I suppose they think if it sounds moderately cogent, people will believe it. 

Anecdotes on the Internet have 'confirmed' the death of the dSLR and doom for Canon. Reality isn't holding its breath.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 1, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Not sure if you are involved in customer survey stuff, but I guarantee you that these have to be taken with a truckload of salt. I also guarantee you that companies pay attention to combinations of attributes in posts (FB actually being only one possible environment, but there's Canon Rumors Fourm, DPreview, ...).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 1, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> Not sure if you are involved in customer survey stuff, but I guarantee you that these have to be taken with a truckload of salt.



Consider the data collected every time a customer fills out a new product registration – demographics, other products owned, planned purchases, etc. Lots of data points, fairly reliable, and in some cases longitudinal data. 

Consider also the process of election polling, where national outcomes can be predicted with reasonable accuracy by sampling a few hundred people. The key is random selection from millions of voters, or from millions of customers as the case may be. 

Your 'unstructured data' 'random musings from forums' does not constitute a random selection, rendering that information of negligible utility.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 1, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure if you are involved in customer survey stuff, but I guarantee you that these have to be taken with a truckload of salt.
> ...



Do you have data to support these anecdotes?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 1, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



*an·ec·dote* ˈanəkˌdōt/ _noun_
1. a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
2. an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.

Seems like you're unclear on the concept of 'anecdote'. Hope the above helps.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 1, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



No data, I see. Hence "hearsay"?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 1, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



That woooshing sound was the point going over your head. The point is Canon has the data, which makes sense since they're the ones with the ability to act on it. 

To see some of the data types that Canon collects, visit their product registration page. To learn about statistical methods in polling, there are ample references and data, try your local library or Google. To understand that forum participants don't represent a random sample of a population, just try thinking logically for a moment. 

Seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it, which makes this discussion pointless. 

Incidentally, you're the one who stated, "I guarantee...," twice. I'd say that puts any burden of proof on you. So as they say...put up or shut up.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 1, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



plenty of talk yet no data. proof is for everybody else... perfectly understood. didn't expect anything else, all good. i like the put up or shut up thing though...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 1, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> plenty of talk yet no data. proof is for everybody else... perfectly understood. didn't expect anything else, all good.



I invited consideration of some information, then suggested resources to obtain further knowledge. What, exactly, requires proof? You, on the other hand, state that you guarantee certain things. Evidently your words are empty and worthless.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 1, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > plenty of talk yet no data. proof is for everybody else... perfectly understood. didn't expect anything else, all good.
> ...



Evidently? Share your "evidence" please... But no more anecdotes ja?!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 1, 2016)

tcmatthews said:


> But as to the 6D II I am hoping to see
> 
> tilt flip screen
> auto focus system similar to 5D III
> ...



Most points seem likely, but I have my doubts the AF will come anywhere close to the 5DIII.


----------



## fentiger (Oct 1, 2016)

canon also have a FB page, they get plenty of feedback or shit from there, so no need for them to look at CR


----------



## Zv (Oct 2, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > What _you_ should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.
> ...



If scientific research were to include Internet forum anecdotes as evidence we would be led to believe that the earth is flat and climate change is not real. Posted anecdotes are nothing but people rambling. 

People complain about the price of gas but they still buy it. People complain about their job but they still go to work (well when their not arguing on CR  that is). 

Your argument is full of giant holes. Just stop. Please. Just take it as "sorry guys I messed up there" and move on. No worries.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 2, 2016)

Zv said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



i like your earth example. even the people who conclude that the earth is too flat for them will hardly find a viable alternative...

i can buy my gas from someone cheaper if price is my primary concern, however. i can also work for some other employer if i believe this will be better. there are sites like kununu.com/glassdoor.com where people share their impressions with employers. i'm rather positive that both employees and employers to a certain degree care about these feedbacks. 

or i can buy gear from a different manufacturer if i believe my current manufacturer isn't giving me what i want. imagine a situation where every second post is about how bad canon DR is. i would be surprised if canon didn't want to know.


----------



## merefield (Oct 2, 2016)

ritholtz said:


> Looks like still no in built flash. It is *******. Think what happened to Kodak and Nokia.



What serious FF camera has a built in flash?

Most direct flash is _horrible_ and now sensors are much more able to cope with low light conditions.

If you need flash use free standing ones.


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 2, 2016)

I am pretty sure that Canon _do_ take into consideration forums such as this. But they are also aware that many people say 'Canon is lagging bahind [Brand] because they have not yet put 8k video in their cameras' are very often people who would not buy the camera anyway, or will not stump up the several hundred dollars it adds to the cost. But comments do certainly give a feel for where the market impression is going. All companies do this and are stupid not to. Remember Nikon's 'we don't need more than 12 MP' when Canon took the leap to 15MP? My guess is that was really code for 'we haven't developed the sensor yet' which is why they eventually bought in Sony sensors because MPs _really, really do_ affect how you take pictures and their output.
I think Canon understand this as well while and in this respect adding video (to take one of the current hot topics) has also become a vital marketing tool just like the MP wars of 5 years ago. 

But Canon also goes to the professionals and asks 'what wold make your life easier/better/more profitable' and that is where they core design decisions come from. Some of those can easily be extrapolated to lower end models and they find out with proper market research to identify what else will make the photographic experience better. And to my mind in both sectors they decided adding some functions will make you go 'nice' but adding other functions to taking stills will make you 'WOW! This is really, really cool' and given this camera is aimed at still shooters they know where the priority lies.

Other companies decide different priorities. Sony decided they would do what they can with AF but made sure they added very good video which is probably why I don't see heaps of Sony cameras as Sports events. But then again nor do I see heaps of professional video shot with them (I see people on for saying 'this is professional grade video' without actually seeing anyone making video with it as part of their crust-earning workflow. Its huge advantage over Canon is its smaller form factor, and if it wasn't for that would it really be so widely praised?


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 2, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> I am pretty sure that Canon _do_ take into consideration forums such as this. But they are also aware that many people say 'Canon is lagging bahind [Brand] because they have not yet put 8k video in their cameras' are very often people who would not buy the camera anyway, or will not stump up the several hundred dollars it adds to the cost. But comments do certainly give a feel for where the market impression is going. All companies do this and are stupid not to. Remember Nikon's 'we don't need more than 12 MP' when Canon took the leap to 15MP? My guess is that was really code for 'we haven't developed the sensor yet' which is why they eventually bought in Sony sensors because MPs _really, really do_ affect how you take pictures and their output.
> I think Canon understand this as well while and in this respect adding video (to take one of the current hot topics) has also become a vital marketing tool just like the MP wars of 5 years ago.
> 
> But Canon also goes to the professionals and asks 'what wold make your life easier/better/more profitable' and that is where they core design decisions come from. Some of those can easily be extrapolated to lower end models and they find out with proper market research to identify what else will make the photographic experience better. And to my mind in both sectors they decided adding some functions will make you go 'nice' but adding other functions to taking stills will make you 'WOW! This is really, really cool' and given this camera is aimed at still shooters they know where the priority lies.
> ...



+10


----------



## d (Oct 2, 2016)

merefield said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like still no in built flash. It is *******. Think what happened to Kodak and Nokia.
> ...



As a key light, yes, a direct blast with a camera's built in flash tends to be horrible and unflattering, however it can be useful as a fill light in some situations. And as good as modern sensors are today, I'd rather pump some extra light in and not have to recover too much.

In saying that, I'd prefer a body without built-in flash, and use a speedlight if needed.


----------



## Zv (Oct 2, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



Yes, Canon also gets feedback from professional photographers who beta test their gear. Feedback is different than forum posts. I wouldn't really regard a forum that isn't connected to Canon in any official capacity as feedback since Canon didn't ask us for it. Yeah, maybe it would be nice if we all had our say but nothing would ever get made! 

One person wants video features the other wants stills features and everyone has different priorities and different styles. Canon does the market research to see what combination of features would sell the most. It's a numbers game. Has nothing much to do with what individual people want. 

Looking around the market right now there's plenty of choice what with Sony and Nikon and even Pentax bringing out some great cameras. If Canon doesn't fill your needs then something else likely would. Just buy the best tool for the job. 

Nowadays pretty much any camera you pick up is "good enough" to create stunning images. The limitation isn't the gear. 

Edit - I think you might be mixing up feedback with reviews. Maybe I'm reading you wrong? As a supervisor I often ask my team for feedback to help improve our work but they also might have a little whine on Facebook about a bad day they had or just to let off steam. Are you assuming these two things are the same? I.e data points?


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 2, 2016)

Zv said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > Zv said:
> ...



i like the numbers game notion; i'm sure canon will notice and react if there is some particular shortfall mentioned over and over again in feedback not asked for. 

i also fully agree with you that the single most limiting factor is the one using the gear...


----------



## tcmatthews (Oct 2, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> tcmatthews said:
> 
> 
> > But as to the 6D II I am hoping to see
> ...


Similar as in close in practice. Some would argue that close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades. But when I say similar in mean it in the way that the 6D autofocus was similar to the 60D and 5D II auto focus. On paper the all cross type on the 60D looks superior to the 6D. In practice the 6D is much more accurate. (At least mine was.) 

I expect that it will have around the same number of auto focus points as the 5DIII. They may not be all cross type. But they will be tuned in such a way that the performance is on par or in low light situations even better than the 5DIII. That is just expected advancement given where the 6D was originally placed in relation the the 5D II. 

The real questions are will the 6DII have better low light performance that the 5DIV and will they utilize a flip screen to introduce more advanced video features?


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 2, 2016)

In reading the other 6DII thread a different question occurred to me. 

To my way of thinking the 6D was basically a 5D3 with a lot of functions stripped out so that they could bring the price down to a reasonable 'FF entry' price, but still giving people basic functionality for landscapes and portraits. And a very successful approach it was as far as I can tell. 

If there is to be a similar relationship to the 5D4 then the question becomes "what functionality would you strip out of the 5D4 to bring it down to 2,000USD". That is what I assume the price of the 6D2 will be to maintain the ethos.

Of course if you _add _thing like a tilty screen or a swivel screen or a new type of sensor that means you need to strip even more out of the existing 5D4. 
Then I think you have a reasonable assessment as to what the 6D2 will be.


----------



## tron (Oct 2, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> In reading the other 6DII thread a different question occurred to me.
> 
> To my way of thinking the 6D was basically a 5D3 with a lot of functions stripped out so that they could bring the price down to a reasonable 'FF entry' price, but still giving people basic functionality for landscapes and portraits. And a very successful approach it was as far as I can tell.
> 
> ...


1. Video 4K
2. 7fps (7->5.5 fps)
3. DLO 
That's about it


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 2, 2016)

Which means for a vast majority of stills photographer there is no difference between the entry level 6D2 and the latest 5D incarnation. is that really 1,500 difference?

Commercial suicide for the 5D4.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 2, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> In reading the other 6DII thread a different question occurred to me.
> 
> To my way of thinking the 6D was basically a 5D3 with a lot of functions stripped out so that they could bring the price down to a reasonable 'FF entry' price, but still giving people basic functionality for landscapes and portraits. And a very successful approach it was as far as I can tell.
> 
> ...



That's a pretty good perspective, but I would add some caveats. It's not a one-for-one exchange and it's not even about the presumed cost of a feature, but rather about the perceived value.

With most camera models today, it's not all that difficult to estimate what a new version will be. Specifically, to the 6DII, begin with the features of the existing 6D and assume that's the base (Canon won't go backwards), then look at the features of the 5DIV and establish that as the ceiling. From there, it's not that hard to guess where the 6DII might fall.

You can also look at lower level cameras and assume that features included in those (like touch screen and flip screen) can be added without undermining the value of the 5D IV. 

Examples:

The 6D had a 20 mp sensor and the 5DIV has 30 mp, so the 6DII will fall somewhere in between;
The 6D had an 11-point AF with one center cross-type AF point and the 5DIV has 61-point AF with 41 cross-type;
The 6D shot at 4.5 fps and the 5DIV at 7 fps;
The 6D had a single SD card slot, the 5D IV has an SD and a CF;
The 5DIV has anti-flicker, the 6D does not;
No dual-pixel autofocus in the 6D, the 5DIV has dual-pixel autofocus with focus adjustment.

There are, of course, all the ergonomics and weather sealing/build advantages of the 5D that will not show up in the 6D. 

If I had to bet today, I would expect a 6DII to have a 24mp sensor, 19-point auto-focus, but all-cross type and all focusing at f8, retain the 4.5 fps, add an additional SD card slot, no anti-flicker and have dual-pixel autofocus but not the micro-adjustment offered in the 5DIV. 

Video I think is anyone's guess. It all depends on whether or not Canon can inexpensively add 4K and if they feel they need to because of competitive pressure. It may come down to engineering concerns regarding heat generation, as I do not see Canon adding third-rate 4K. 

It will have touch screen, GPS and WiFi built in.

I would rate the chances of a flip-screen at 50/50.


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 3, 2016)

Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.

After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.
> 
> After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.



Yeah, sounds like Canon is *******.


----------



## tron (Oct 3, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.
> 
> After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.


Well judging from:


douglaurent said:


> ...
> My shopping message to Canon just was: I only bought 1 instead of 2 1DX2 and 1 instead of 3 5D4 - because of their lack of innovation, or better said: lack of including what their competitors already sell.
> 
> ...


you should buy more than 1 Panasonic ;D


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 3, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.
> 
> After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.



Yeah, MFTs are seductive. I have the E-M5 and the GX7 and think they are both great cameras and there are some superb lenses available. So much so that when travelling on business or a casual visit into town and happily pack one (or both) knowing I will get excellent pictures. But there are also severe drawbacks for me as well. 
So if MFT is 10 years ahead of the Canon, I dare you to sell your Canon gear and live solely with MFTs.

Bet you won't ;D


----------



## Sabaki (Oct 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.
> ...



So a different market but a pretty huge company by the name of Sega sat in a similar position a few years back.

They just emerged out of the very successful Sega Genesis era and held 2nd spot in the gaming market, behind Nintendo's SNES console. Although 2nd placed, Sega could lay claim to having massive success with their 16bit console due to the sheer numbers it moved.

With the release of firstly the Sega Saturn and then Sega Dreamcast, Sega put out fantastic machines that appealed very much to their hardcore market, as it had brilliant titles lined up left, right and centre.

Meanwhile, Sony emerged with their PlayStation and it's incredible marketing machine. They approached former Nintendo developers like Rare (responsible for Donkey Kong Country, 6 million units sold) & Square Enix (Final Fantasy series). Within a single year, the entire market had a very different complexion.

Sony were dominant and Sega's Saturn was considered by the average, non hardcore consumer to be underpowered and underwhelming, even though the hardcore market loved the titles. Sony and Sega both released Tomb Raider but due to the far greater computing ability of the PS, the Sega version looked poor.

Then Sony released Final Fantasy VII (from a previous Nintendo developer) and Sega was forced to move early on their next generation machine and they released the Sega Dreamcast in 1999. A brilliant machine with many AAA+ titles in the pipeline. A year later, the biggest ever selling console, the PlayStation 2 was released and many of those AAA+ titles of Sega's were cancelled outright or moved to the PS2.

Sega then made a decision to drop out of the console market and become 'system agnostic', essentially becoming a 3rd party developer for Nintendo and Sony.

For the record, the gaming market now nets more revenue than Hollywood as a whole.

Then there's the more recent story of Nokia, who were out and out the most dominant manufacturer of mobile phones.

Not an expert on this story but there were talks of Elon Musk's company displacing Nasa as the US government's space program. I've got no intel on this but listened as Elon Musk is/was a South African and it caused to me to kinda listen.

If anything, the above indicates that current market position needs to be looked at considering other factors. Please note that I am not saying Canon are anywhere near a similar position nor am I trying to be argumentative but there is a strong argument that catering to the hardcore market whilst paying less attention to what the masses are looking for in a camera, may change the landscape quickly and dramatically for Canon.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2016)

Sabaki said:


> If anything, the above indicates that current market position needs to be looked at considering other factors. Please note that I am not saying Canon are anywhere near a similar position nor am I trying to be argumentative but there is a strong argument that catering to the hardcore market whilst paying less attention to what the masses are looking for in a camera, may change the landscape quickly and dramatically for Canon.



Do you believe that Canon is, "...catering to the hardcore market whilst paying less attention to what the masses are looking for," in an ILC?


----------



## scyrene (Oct 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Oh right. Well, better in every way except it's a stop wider. It definitely beats the 24-105 at f/2.8!
> ...



Argh! Well then I go back to price. APS-C (M4/3, etc) surely has *some* advantage, or else why bother?!


----------



## scyrene (Oct 3, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



You didn't answer my reasonable question. I'll no longer bother replying to you because you are either a genuine troll or else so far removed from reason and reality you may as well be one.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 3, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Sarpedon said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Meanwhile, someone can have 6000 posts and have contributed nothing at all to the forum (no pictures posted, no helpful advice, no technical expertise). And passive aggressive is generally worse than just aggressive.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 3, 2016)

ishdakuteb said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > ... Since various people want to believe the Sun effectively shines out of Canon's a*** then it is easier to think of a growing number of people that are discontent with Canon to be the one person than accept that multiple people may be disappointed with Canon's products.
> ...



Dilbert refuses to be drawn on what camera gear he owns, and never posts pictures, as far as I know. The purported motivation is noble - one should deal with arguments on their merits, not the skills or output of their proponents - but in reality it means he can retain the affected mantle of being above such petty things as actually using cameras for taking photographs. Alas the arguments made, such as they are, are of little merit either, most of the time.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2016)

scyrene said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



The main advantage is lower system cost, and sometimis size/weight. Provided you don't need shallow DoF and shoot in reasonably good light, a smaller sensor can be a good option.


----------



## FECHariot (Oct 3, 2016)

d said:


> merefield said:
> 
> 
> > ritholtz said:
> ...



Good point here. I have to say though I would not not ever use pop up flash on a 6D2 or any other camera. For Fill, the pop up is most often too weak to really add much fill. It can't do high speed synch either and if you are outside in bright conditions that quickly becomes limiting. I almost always have a flash gun with me. If I want to go lighter, I have the 270ex2 and at least it can do high speed synch and when I am not using it, I can throw it in my pocket.

Basically, I have not raised the pop up flash on my current 7D since I bought my 580EX2 and no longer needed the pop up flash to trigger my off camera 430s.

Sure the Nikon D750 has pop up flash, but I wold rather see Canon match other of it's specs in the 6D2 like faster FPS, More AF points and even flippy screen. Pop up flash is not a factor in my purchase criteria.


----------



## d (Oct 3, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Meanwhile, someone can have 6000 posts and have contributed nothing at all to the forum (no pictures posted, no helpful advice, no technical expertise). And passive aggressive is generally worse than just aggressive.



In another thread regarding the 5DIV review at TDP, I provided a link to a thread Dilbert started several years back where he posted a photo of a penguin...I was going to mention it here as proof of Dilbert's contribution of at least one image...but the thread seems to have mysteriously disappeared!

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=5334.0

Dilbert, do you know anything about its disappearance by any chance?

EDIT: waybackmachine seems to still have it...phew! 

https://web.archive.org/web/20150906073945/http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=5334.0


----------



## Sabaki (Oct 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > If anything, the above indicates that current market position needs to be looked at considering other factors. Please note that I am not saying Canon are anywhere near a similar position nor am I trying to be argumentative but there is a strong argument that catering to the hardcore market whilst paying less attention to what the masses are looking for in a camera, may change the landscape quickly and dramatically for Canon.
> ...



No, I'm not committing to a side on this argument as I do feel that both sides have valid points and no one argument is categorically correct. People either side of the conversation are intelligent and knowledgeable, perhaps the constant heat and emotion in the conversation has stopped a healthy debate from happening.


----------



## FECHariot (Oct 3, 2016)

rfdesigner said:


> No.. what would be truely awsome is a DETACHABLE screen.. sure let it be tip/tilt/swivel.. but let it also be detachable.. then you don't have to muck about with pairing problems to remote control, if it breaks you just buy a new screen and you have no weather sealing issues.



This sounds like a great idea in theory, just like the new Apple earbuds. However, The first time you don't click the screen back into place properly will be when you are walking over a sewage grate and by by screen down the grate. Then you get to pay $500 for a new screen to use your camera. Same thing as is going to happen to the Ear bud users, they are going to loose them.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2016)

d said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Meanwhile, someone can have 6000 posts and have contributed nothing at all to the forum (no pictures posted, no helpful advice, no technical expertise). And passive aggressive is generally worse than just aggressive.
> ...



I noticed that, and since I see no reason why any mod would delete the thread, the only possible conclusion is that dilbert deleted it himself. 

Thanks for digging out the archived version, it always helps to put comments in perspective when you see images that someone felt were impactful enough to warrant starting a thread to share them.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2016)

FECHariot said:


> This sounds like a great idea in theory, just like the new Apple earbuds. ... Same thing as is going to happen to the Ear bud users, they are going to loose them.



Simple solution there...attach a thin wire to the earbuds.


----------



## d (Oct 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> FECHariot said:
> 
> 
> > This sounds like a great idea in theory, just like the new Apple earbuds. ... Same thing as is going to happen to the Ear bud users, they are going to loose them.
> ...



If Apple was clever, the thin wire would be capable of carrying a small current in order keep the batteries topped up - now your wireless earbuds aren't going to be lost *and* will play for much longer...


----------



## d (Oct 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > Argh! Well then I go back to price. APS-C (M4/3, etc) surely has *some* advantage, or else why bother?!
> ...



Slightly O/T, but this week Thom Hogan shared some interesting thoughts on the current state of the sensor market that I think is worth a read - he's favouring APS sized sensors as the sweet spot in the market currently, when evaluating cost vs. performance (obviously there are other factors to consider).

d.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/its-about-the-sensor-again.html


----------



## FECHariot (Oct 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> FECHariot said:
> 
> 
> > This sounds like a great idea in theory, just like the new Apple earbuds. ... Same thing as is going to happen to the Ear bud users, they are going to loose them.
> ...



Nice


----------



## FECHariot (Oct 3, 2016)

d said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.
> ...



Sounds more like Canon is happy about any customer who is not well informed and too lazy for consequences


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Thanks for digging out the archived version, it always helps to put comments in perspective when you see images that someone felt were impactful enough to warrant starting a thread to share them.
> 
> In case anyone is curious, here's the image that dilbert started a thread to share with the community.



Was this really needed?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



As long as those customers are buying cameras...yes!


----------



## douglaurent (Oct 3, 2016)

scyrene said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...



The question is why any discussion is needed here. Subjectively the 5D2 was well received by 95% of the consumers at release, the 5D3 maybe by 75% and now 50% of the people are negative about it.

Canon sells way less DSLR's than in former years, and products by competitors and especially the mirrorless segment gained a lot of market share.

If you think everything's okay with Canon and their products, good for you. I doubt they will have daily campagne orgies in Toyko because their situation is so excellent.

In the end we all know the background about Canon's strategy: if they release one camera that includes all cool features today, what will they sell in the future? The mass amount of Rebel cameras they sold is already more than enough for most, who stopped buying new models already.

Canon sells new features slowly bit by bit, so they will sell more units over the years. Is that good for any photographer or filmmaker on the planet? Is it great to carry around more stuff than needed and have a slower and less convenient workflow than possible? Not at all. So that's the end of this story.


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 3, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Canon sells way less DSLR's than in former years, and products by competitors and especially the mirrorless segment gained a lot of market share.



Can you show the numbers, both total and in comparison to other manufacturers?




douglaurent said:


> The mass amount of Rebel cameras they sold is already more than enough for most, who stopped buying new models already.



They've stopped buying because most people have bought the only DSLR they will be bothered to buy in their lives. Are you aware of market research that something like 70% of users buy their DSLR kit and never buy another lens? Same effect.




douglaurent said:


> Canon sells new features slowly bit by bit, so they will sell more units over the years. Is that good for any photographer or filmmaker on the planet? Is it great to carry around more stuff than needed and have a slower and less convenient workflow than possible? Not at all. So that's the end of this story.


And of course you have evidence that they are the only camera manufacturer to do this.


----------



## Luds34 (Oct 3, 2016)

FECHariot said:


> d said:
> 
> 
> > merefield said:
> ...



Completely agree with both of you. I've tried using the pop-up flash as "fill flash" in Av mode a couple of times but never was truly happy with the results. As long as one has the foresight to toss a speedlite in the camera bag, that is always a much much better option. 

For "run and gun" shooting in low light I personally like tossing on a speedlite in E-TTL with a very fast prime while dragging the shutter a bit and bouncing the flash while shooting wide open. Get background, context and the flash doesn't even have to use too much power so it's usually pretty flattering light. Quite happy with those results.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Subjectively the 5D2 was well received by 95% of the consumers at release, the 5D3 maybe by 75% and now 50% of the people are negative about it.



How many thousands of customers did you survey to come up with those numbers? Please share your metrics and data. Or by 'subjectively' are you really saying that you've just pulled these numbers out of your ass?




douglaurent said:


> Canon sells way less DSLR's than in former years, and products by competitors and especially the mirrorless segment gained a lot of market share.



Canon ILC market share:
2006 – 46%
2010 – 44%
2011 – 44%
2014 – 43%

From where have those competitors and especially the mirrorless segment gained 'a lot' of market share? Clearly, not from Canon.




douglaurent said:


> So that's the end of this story.



You've made it quite obvious that you have no clue about how this story ends. Or how it began. Or the plot along the way.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 3, 2016)

Does anyone have an overview of camera sales by brand (or just Canon) and Market, broken out into "traditional" DSLR and MILC over say the past 10 years?


----------



## unfocused (Oct 3, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> Does anyone have an overview of camera sales by brand (or just Canon) and Market, broken out into "traditional" DSLR and MILC over say the past 10 years?



CIPA http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html tracks the industry. 

There have been a number of threads here in the past that discuss other available data. Occasionally, brand specific data becomes available, but generally that's held pretty close to the vest due to competitive concerns. As I recall, when it has been available it shows Canon is the market leader and has not lost any ground. Some of the smaller brands have seen their market share increase, but it appears to primarily come out of Nikon's and Sony's base not Canon's.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 3, 2016)

Sabaki said:


> So a different market but a pretty huge company by the name of Sega sat in a similar position a few years back...
> 
> ...If anything, the above indicates that current market position needs to be looked at considering other factors...there is a strong argument that catering to the hardcore market whilst paying less attention to what the masses are looking for in a camera, may change the landscape quickly and dramatically for Canon.



I always love these strained analogies. 

The camera market is either undergoing, or has already emerged, from the crash that so many people here like to predict.

The market crashed because *all *the major players (not just Canon) grossly misread the impact on internet connectivity and social media on the market. As a result, they saw the bulk of their customers and arguably some of their most valuable customers (young consumers who will someday have the resources to buy expensive equipment) leave them for the inferior technology of cell phones.

Finally, today, about six or seven years too late, they are just beginning to add internet connectivity to their products. Still, it is clunky and difficult to use and doesn't come remotely close to the convenience of a typical cell phone. 

The question people should be asking is which companies have emerged from this meltdown with the least damage to their bottom line? 

The other question is which companies seem well-positioned and willing to adapt to the new realities and finally give consumers cameras that are built for connectivity?

Canon obviously fares pretty well in the first question, but falls down in the second. Fortunately, for them, all their competitors have proven to be equally incompetent in this regard. 

Someday soon, one of the players will emerge with a camera that allows consumers to easily and quickly go through their pictures, identify the ones they like, do a few quick in-camera edits and then post those pictures directly to the internet or upload them to a service like Dropbox. 

If one of the other manufacturers does that before Canon, then I would say Canon has something to worry about. But, so long as the major differences between cameras are the feature sets that elicit so much angst among the dinosaurs on this forum (myself included), Canon has nothing to worry about and all the strained analogies won't change that.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 3, 2016)

So data from CIPA, Canon and Nikon suggests the following for ILC (incl. MILC) volumes:

Canon an Nikon have grown at the same pace from 2006 to 2015 at an average growth rate of ca. 9.3%. Nikon growing slightly faster. The market (CIPA) at the same time grew 10.6% in average. Both Nikon and Canon have lost market share in volume. 

2008 EOS 5D Mark II: Canon (+20%) outgrew Nikon (+9%) yet not Market (+30%)?

2012 EOS 5D Mark III: Canon (+13%) was outgrown big time by Nikon (+36%) and Market (+28%). Nikon accounted for something like 80% of the market growth.

2013: Canon shrank (-6%) slower than both Nikon and Market (-15%). 

2014: Negative growth of -18% to -19% for all Canon, Nikon and Market

2015: Negative growth of -11% and -12% for Canon and Nikon respectively with Market shrinking -6%.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> So data from CIPA, Canon and Nikon suggests the following for ILC (incl. MILC) volumes:
> 
> Canon an Nikon have grown at the same pace from 2006 to 2015 at an average growth rate of ca. 9.3%. Nikon growing slightly faster. The market (CIPA) at the same time grew 10.6% in average. Both Nikon and Canon have lost market share in volume.
> 
> ...



Not saying there's anything wrong with your numbers, but just a warning if you're looking at Canon/Nikon annual reports and comparing them to CIPA data for any given year. CIPA data are for the calendar year, and Canon's fiscal year also matches the calendar year. But Nikon's fiscal year matches the Japanese government's fiscal year, which runs from April 1st to the folloiwing March 31st. Makes head-to-head comparisons a bit of a PITA.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 3, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > So data from CIPA, Canon and Nikon suggests the following for ILC (incl. MILC) volumes:
> ...



I know. The annual numbers might be impacted by that, the 10 years series not (materially).


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 3, 2016)

So if you account for the quarter shift in 2012 and 2013 you get the numbers in red

So data from CIPA, Canon and Nikon suggests the following for ILC (incl. MILC) volumes:

Canon an Nikon have grown at the same pace from 2006 to 2015 at an average growth rate of ca. 9.3%. Nikon growing slightly faster. The market (CIPA) at the same time grew 10.6% in average. Both Nikon and Canon have lost market share in volume. 

2008 EOS 5D Mark II: Canon (+20%) outgrew Nikon (+9%) yet not Market (+30%)?

2012 EOS 5D Mark III: Canon (+13%) was outgrown big time by Nikon (+36%/+30%) and Market (+28%). Nikon accounted for something like 80%/67% of the market growth.

2013: Canon and Nikon shrank (-6%) slower than Market (-15%). 

2014: Negative growth of -18% to -19% for all Canon, Nikon and Market

2015: Negative growth of -11% and -12% for Canon and Nikon respectively with Market shrinking -6%.


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 3, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> So if you account for the quarter shift in 2012 and 2013 you get the numbers in red
> 
> So data from CIPA, Canon and Nikon suggests the following for ILC (incl. MILC) volumes:
> 
> ...



But you are talking again about each companies growth compared to that company's previous year results. From smatterings of information across different years, it seems to me that Canon's growth may have been less but as it had a bigger share of the market to start off with which means it still outsells Nikon in absolute terms despite a 'smaller % increase'.

Who'd be a statistician, eh?


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 3, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > So if you account for the quarter shift in 2012 and 2013 you get the numbers in red
> ...



that doesn't make the growth comparison meaningless. if you give me quantyties from canon for the different camera types for any given year between 2006 and 2015 i'm happy to do the absolute comparison for you to add to the picture. eh!?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 3, 2016)

IDC's data for 2014. The change from 2013 differs from romanr74's numbers. Another confound is lenses – IIRC, Canon rolls them in with cameras, Nikon breaks them out. Also, Canon just reports 'cameras' which includes dSLRs and compacts, then gives a value and a unit base for ILCs.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 3, 2016)

I broke the Canon ILCs out


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 3, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> I broke the Canon ILCs out



So the numbers are.....?


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 3, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > I broke the Canon ILCs out
> ...



The growth numbers are the above, for ILCs...


----------



## unfocused (Oct 3, 2016)

This is a case of "figures don't fool, but fools do figure."

Mixing and matching numbers from different sources simply doesn't work. While it's entertaining for something as insignificant as this forum, no one should be under the illusion that the numbers will add any meaningful insight, especially since there is enough cherry-picking going on here to provide a year's supply of pie for everyone on the forum.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 4, 2016)

unfocused said:


> This is a case of "figures don't fool, but fools do figure."
> 
> Mixing and matching numbers from different sources simply doesn't work. While it's entertaining for something as insignificant as this forum, no one should be under the illusion that the numbers will add any meaningful insight, especially since there is enough cherry-picking going on here to provide a year's supply of pie for everyone on the forum.



please explain. it only doesn't work if you imply that the numbers of any of he sources are wrong. if you know they are please share your insight with us.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 4, 2016)

So I re-summarize:

The post below shows data from CIPA, Canon and Nikon.

As neuroanatomist stated, Nikon has a fiscal year which is shifted by one quarter versus CIPA and Canon. This can impact yearly comparision while it will have a near-zero impact on the 10 year timespan. I adjusted the 2012 and 2013 data for this effect - see numbers in red. 

As Mikehit stated, Canon might still outsell Nikon in absolute numbers due to base of growht to start off from. I didn't find absolute units numbers from Canon - if someone has them i'm happy to build them into my model. However, bigger growth number vs. market means market share gain and vice versa. 

Unfocused states the whole excercise is futile but doesn't explain why...



romanr74 said:


> So if you account for the quarter shift in 2012 and 2013 you get the numbers in red
> 
> So data from CIPA, Canon and Nikon suggests the following for ILC (incl. MILC) volumes:
> 
> ...


----------



## Moulyneau (Oct 4, 2016)

With such specs, I'll gladly add one to my 5DSr as back-up. The 6D's AF was really limited to my taste and a tad slow. For me, it just needs to come with the equivalent AF from the 80D (with a joystick, please Canon...) and a clean 6400 ISO. Not that I care much for DPAF but that's fine. Somehow, I just wonder whether DPAF actually does require an AA filter (just wondering why Canon is reticent to remove it on their new releases as compared to competition). Well, maybe I'm already spoiled by the look, feel and malleability of the 5DSr files...


----------



## Zv (Oct 4, 2016)

Moulyneau said:


> With such specs, I'll gladly add one to my 5DSr as back-up. The 6D's AF was really limited to my taste and a tad slow. For me, it just needs to come with the equivalent AF from the 80D (with a joystick, please Canon...) and a clean 6400 ISO. Not that I care much for DPAF but that's fine. Somehow, I just wonder whether DPAF actually does require an AA filter (just wondering why Canon is reticent to remove it on their new releases as compared to competition). Well, maybe I'm already spoiled by the look, feel and malleability of the 5DSr files...



With such a lousy 11 point AF system and outer points that are meh at best you can kinda see why a joystick on the original 6D was largely unnecessary! 

But yeah I agree if the 6DII has the 80D level of AF then a joystick would be very welcome indeed!


----------



## unfocused (Oct 4, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> Unfocused states the whole excercise is futile but doesn't explain why...



Why?

Anytime you mix data from different sources, you compromise the data. You have no way of knowing if the data was collected in a consistent manner (probably not, since you are using different sources). Data represents a snapshot in time, by your own admission, you have altered that. Since you are using different sources, you cannot be certain that each defines the data in identical ways.

One example: Do all your sources use shipments, or do some use sales? They are not the same. How does each define the terms. Does Nikon's definition of shipment or sale match Canon's? Do CIPA's definitions match up to Canon and Nikon? 

You have added a causal relationship (release of specific high-end Canon cameras, 5D models) to the data that is not supported by anything in the data and is logically just wrong. Logically, the sales of any full frame camera constitutes too small of a percentage of overall sales for the effect you have assigned to it. You have no access to information that would make your assumed link between 5D sales and overall sales valid.

While assigning a causal relationship between the release of specific high-end models, you have completely ignored massive social and economic changes that have shaken the entire market, indeed the entire world economy, during the past 10 years. 

You claim to be using 10-year data, but then you pull out data by year, which means your 10-year averaging no longer is relevant or valid.

You are using percentage of growth, as though that is the most relevant number possible, when it doesn't account for the overall market.

The 10-year period you've chosen constitutes something of an anomaly in the camera market. It begins during a growth period when digital was taking over the market, but ends in a period in which the larger digital camera market has collapsed due to cell phone competition. What was once an emerging market, as enthusiasts adopted digital technology, has now become a mature market where growth and the pace of change has slowed significantly.

But, your biggest mistake is in assuming that growth equates to success and trumps all other factors. That is a perspective that may not be shared by the industry. Few successful businesses pursue growth at the expense of all other factors. There is a cost associated with growth and companies recognize that the cost of capturing a slightly larger share of the market may not be worth the expense.

Use our own industry as an example. No photographer should pursue every possible client. The cost of servicing some clients may exceed their value, especially if serving them comes at the expense of other customers. 

You have assumed that Canon (or Nikon) considers unlimited growth to be their primary objective. Their investors (who have a much bigger vote than you or I) are more likely to value return on investment over the relentless pursuit of small increases in market share. 

In short, your data is unreliable and, even if it was reliable, it would not support your conclusions.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 4, 2016)

unfocused said:


> Anytime you mix data from different sources, you compromise the data. You have no way of knowing if the data was collected in a consistent manner (probably not, since you are using different sources). Data represents a snapshot in time, by your own admission, you have altered that. Since you are using different sources, you cannot be certain that each defines the data in identical ways.



You're correct on the sources. I have not "altered" the data, though, I have added quarters (for which data are available) differently to accomodate for calendar year view.



unfocused said:


> You have added a causal relationship (release of specific high-end Canon cameras, 5D models) to the data that is not supported by anything in the data and is logically just wrong. Logically, the sales of any full frame camera constitutes too small of a percentage of overall sales for the effect you have assigned to it. You have no access to information that would make your assumed link between 5D sales and overall sales valid.



I did not do anything like that at all... Why are you saying that?



unfocused said:


> While assigning a causal relationship between the release of specific high-end models, you have completely ignored massive social and economic changes that have shaken the entire market, indeed the entire world economy, during the past 10 years.



See above... I didn't assign any casual relationship at all...



unfocused said:


> You claim to be using 10-year data, but then you pull out data by year, which means your 10-year averaging no longer is relevant or valid.



Not for the year-by-year statements but for the 10 year statement I make at the top...



unfocused said:


> You are using percentage of growth, as though that is the most relevant number possible, when it doesn't account for the overall market.



I use percentage of growth because it is the only number which is consistently available i.e. has the highest reliability. I didn't make up numbers... I do not imply it is the single most imporant measure. You do that...



unfocused said:


> The 10-year period you've chosen constitutes something of an anomaly in the camera market. It begins during a growth period when digital was taking over the market, but ends in a period in which the larger digital camera market has collapsed due to cell phone competition. What was once an emerging market, as enthusiasts adopted digital technology, has now become a mature market where growth and the pace of change has slowed significantly.



Which is true for the respective market, Canon and Nikon. No?



unfocused said:


> But, your biggest mistake is in assuming that growth equates to success and trumps all other factors. That is a perspective that may not be shared by the industry. Few successful businesses pursue growth at the expense of all other factors. There is a cost associated with growth and companies recognize that the cost of capturing a slightly larger share of the market may not be worth the expense.



I make no such statement. You make that statement to yourself. I only describe the data I see...



unfocused said:


> You have assumed that Canon (or Nikon) considers unlimited growth to be their primary objective. Their investors (who have a much bigger vote than you or I) are more likely to value return on investment over the relentless pursuit of small increases in market share.



I make no such statement. You make that statement to yourself. I only describe the data I see...



unfocused said:


> In short, your data is unreliable and, even if it was reliable, it would not support your conclusions.



I make no conclusions. You make up conclusions yourself. I only describe the data I see...


----------



## rrcphoto (Oct 4, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > So data from CIPA, Canon and Nikon suggests the following for ILC (incl. MILC) volumes:
> ...



not only that, CIPA is shipped. Canon and Nikon report sold - you really can't correlate the two. especially market shrinkage like some are attempting.. that's ludicrous. 

you can maybe assume relative numbers, however that is difficult.

this year we do have numbers from canon in the first half of the year they sold 2.52M ILC's.. Nikon 1.45 million (matching fiscal quarters)

Canon so far this year (2Q 2016) has maintained the same level of sold cameras from last year.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 4, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...




i don't claim the data to be perfect, i say in the opener that the data "suggests"... 
however i do believe they are a very good indicator in particular the canon vs. nikon comparison.
if someone has better data then please share it.

can you share the source for the quantities?


----------



## unfocused (Oct 4, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > You have added a causal relationship (release of specific high-end Canon cameras, 5D models) to the data that is not supported by anything in the data and is logically just wrong. Logically, the sales of any full frame camera constitutes too small of a percentage of overall sales for the effect you have assigned to it. You have no access to information that would make your assumed link between 5D sales and overall sales valid.
> ...



Why did you include the release dates of the 5D models if you did not believe it was relevant? 




romanr74 said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > In short, your data is unreliable and, even if it was reliable, it would not support your conclusions.
> ...



Pardon me. I thought you were trying to make a point. Apparently, you just wanted to share random data that you admit has no meaning.

That would confirm my original statement, then, wouldn't it.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 4, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> Canon so far this year (2Q 2016) has maintained the same level of sold cameras from last year.



same level of ILCs to be precise. compact camera volumes dropped by -22% and -30% in the fist two quartets versus same quarter last year


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 4, 2016)

unfocused said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



i included the 5d release dates as reference.
everybody is invited to draw their own conclusions. 
if this has no meaning to you, fine...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 4, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> however i do believe they are a very good indicator in particular the canon vs. nikon comparison.
> if someone has better data then please share it.



Already posted. 2014, Canon with 43% of the ILC market, Nikon with 32%. Your numbers for 2015 suggest Canon gained a very slight amount of market share, and the 1H2016 quarterly results show Canon has gained more meaningfully relative to Nikon so far this year. 

So overall, Canon has led the ILC market for >13 years, and for the past ~10 years they've hovered in the range of 43-46% ILC market share.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 4, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> romanr74 said:
> 
> 
> > however i do believe they are a very good indicator in particular the canon vs. nikon comparison.
> ...



can you be a tiny tad more outspoken on the data source? just for reference...


----------



## ishdakuteb (Oct 4, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Dilbert refuses to be drawn on what camera gear he owns, and never posts pictures, as far as I know...



He did actually post some of his images... that is the reason why I said that his knowledge on taking and composing image is very close to newbie who always sounds like an expert...


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 4, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Your numbers for 2015 suggest Canon gained a very slight amount of market share, and the 1H2016 quarterly results show Canon has gained more meaningfully relative to Nikon so far this year.



My data suggests that for 2015 both Canon and Nikon lost market share by loosing -11% and -12% volume respectively, with a market shrinking only -6%. Yet Nikon loosing more than Canon.

When I add the market data Nikon shows in their presentation and apply your 2014 market share to assess the Canon volumes, which leads for 2015 to a correct ballpark number compared to the 2.5 million milcs statet by rrcphoto, the data suggests that Canon and Nikon combined lost 8% of the market in 2015 versus 2013, 4% of market each year combined over Canon and Nikon, 4% of market each Canon and Nikon over the two years.


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 4, 2016)

How much did mirrorless lose (given that the nub of the conversation is that CaNikon are losing out to more progressive manufacturers). 

At the moment I am not convinced I would employ you as a market analyst...


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 4, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> How much did mirrorless lose (given that the nub of the conversation is that CaNikon are losing out to more progressive manufacturers).
> 
> At the moment I am not convinced I would employ you as a market analyst...



CIPA suggests "Interchangeable Lens Cameras Non-Reflex" has grown by 1% 2015 over 2013. "Non-Reflex" includes cameras such as so-called mirrorless cameras, compact system cameras, rangefinder cameras with interchangeable lens and interchangeable unit system cameras, and similar cameras.

CIPA suggests "Interchangeable Lens Cameras Reflex" has fallen by -30% over the same timeframe.

I'm not looking for an employment... And you couldn't afford.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 4, 2016)

romanr74 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



From the previous page of this topic (or maybe it's two pages back by now):


neuroanatomist said:


>



See the bottom right corner, where it says Source: IDC. 
http://www.idc.com
http://petapixel.com/2015/12/05/interchangeable-lens-camera-market-share-in-2014/




romanr74 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > romanr74 said:
> ...



I was referring to the Canon vs. Nikon comparison. Nikon losing more than Canon means Canon gaining relative to Nikon.


----------



## romanr74 (Oct 4, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> I was referring to the Canon vs. Nikon comparison. Nikon losing more than Canon means Canon gaining relative to Nikon.



Correct...


----------



## BasXcanon (Oct 6, 2016)

Dear canon shooters,

I just recently noticed the excistence of this forum, so I just made my account.
Now I have to say that I am totaly shocked about the post one can read here. 80% of reactions dont make any sence here.

I do have a message for some of you, but my text will become quitte long, so sorry on that one 

There are a few topics where I want to share my thoughts with you all.
These are:

* Electronic viewfinder ingetration in EOS
* Upcoming Fullframe mirrorless
* Upcoming 6D mark II
* The notion of wanting EF-s lenses on EF
* Videography on DSLR's
* Personal wishes for lower End fullframe camera

===============================================================================================
** Electronic viewfinder ingetration in EOS.*
I keep hearing amateures complaints about the Canons not having EVF yet.
I can fully understand the need of that for many beginners that are now used to get liveview from their smartphones or cameras.
Where they can 'see what they get', yet often still dont know how to adjust 'that getting'.
Many of us may think canon doesnt want to ingetrate it because of shutterlag.
Now that part is in 2016 almost totaly gone, and the Sony A7 and Fuji XT2 is more than fast enough for 90% of the vacation shots.

The thing is in profesional fotography is, that one can't pre-see a flash. 
Which basically means the EVF is no real advantage in flash photograpy.

Ohter than that there just is a strong demand on the market for a 1D series camera that has enough battery power for a whole soccer game long. 
With the camera on continues standby, there is a reason while the 1D doesnt have touchscreen for menu options, its just too much energy sucking.
Its just not done in the proffesionals world to miss a sportshot because of battery change. 
Which basically means that even in 2050 there will be a chance that canon still produces OVF on the 1D series.

People should realise Canon has become big in photography because of affoardeble long Teles under $20.000.
And they got the beast tele lenses 24-70 and 70-200 that blow the competition sort of away.
Canon just has luck that it became such a populair in the digital world, between 2000-2012. 
In the Film days canon was completely nowhere on the consumer sales, 
they were outrun by Kodak low ends consumer cameras.

But in 2012 till 2016 people just thinking different and might not want the features that the 1D market demands.
And thats a valid argument seeing my own pictures where I might been aible to make 90% of them on a mirrorless camera aswell.

That is BTW the same argument that Jason Lanier made a several times.
There was a Commercial where a photographer made pictures of penguins on antarctica proving how weaterresist the body was.
The question remains, do you really need ANTARCTICA sealed body's for Italy vacation shots?

Question remains, does the mirrorles competition really have great alternatives when it comes to lens choises and flashes?
-Sony not really, advantage is to get lenses with adapter but that doesnt make it look like it supports the pro market
-Fuji, yes but no fullframes and no cheap new lenses, 
-Pentax YES THEY HAVE when considering their vintage K mount lenses on ebay. Which brings me to my next point.


===============================================================================================
** Upcoming Fullframe mirrorless*
Now many of you might be asking why canon didnt follow Sony in 2012 with the Emounts fullframes.
I suspect canon really wanting to join the full frame mirrorles market,
but they just need input if the market would accept a new lens mount. 

It's a damm fact that a mirrorless camera can be made a bit smaller, but you need longer lenses for on the same focal lenght.
Now between 2012 and 2016 we have seen 2 other competition members operating in this Fullframe market.

Sony made the Emount, but had issues constructing fast wide angle primes for this mount. So small is not really an advantage. 
And now Sony seems to be investing in the A mount again to offer the short commings.
Pentax made the K1, just with the old mount, keeping the camera a bit bigger but having the possibility for consumers to use all their old glass.
I think Canon just wanted to learn from this what poeple liked most. They just need market demands input from profesionals and consumers.

Now as we have read the rumors, Canon will remain the EF mount on mirrorless, so they go the Pentax way.

I really think we should see this upcomming Canon fullframe mirrorless as a competition runner to the K1 rather than the Sony A7 series.
The market now has accept that in the end you cant get around of long lenses, which is the main answer for Canon now.


===============================================================================================
** Upcoming 6D mark II*
I am affraid it might become a big dissappointment for most. 
Since we see decreasing camera sales, we see camera mfg asking more and more money now.
The fact is that canon cant be making this 6D II as good as mentioned here on the forum.
It would eat the sales of the 5D. 
Other than that, I see new Canon 5DSR for 2400 new on the web, the Canon 5D mark III for 2000.
The new 6D II will probably go around for 1800 only offering a Flappy screen and duo SD slots and a bit of more DR/Iso performance.
That just is not worth the higher price.


===============================================================================================
** The notion of wanting EF-s lenses on EF*
I have seen quitte many people asking for this feature in the EOS line up.
My question is, whats the point?
I have used many of them but can only recommend 3 EFS lenses to buy in the first place, and having reasons to look further.

These 3 are:
24MM F2.8, Great wide angle, but the lens get outperformed by sigma 20mm on sharpness and Voigtländer 20mm for colorrendering.
60MM F2.8 Macro, Great macro and alround, the thing is, the 50mm F1.8 is better alround and you are better off with a used 100mm Macro for true subject isolation.
18-135MM NANO IS, Great Image Stability, but Image quality is nowhere compared to primes.

All other Canon EFS are total crapp and you are better of avoiding them.
Dont buy the 70-300mm/ 55-250mm and 18-300mm sigma. Its all crap quality, save up 200 bugs more and get an used 200mm USM L from ebay.
Please do that! Please people!!!!!!!

I understand people bought the Sigma 50-100mm F1.8 but hat one is already able to use on FF. 
I really have the feeling canon just doesnt want to take proper efford to make nice primes on the EFS line up.


===============================================================================================
** Videography on DSLR's*
I honestly don't know why there is so much demand for video features in the DSLR.
Working with OVF in video producement is a pain! The manufacturing cost of a penta prism just cost like 200-300$.
It's precision allignment! Just dont hunt or wait or expect canon to make video features in the 2000$+ stills camera
Canon makes the XC10 and XC15 now for less than that. 
People just be honest what you want, stop crying the video specs, if its video buy those XC10's.
If you really need both the best of stills and video, just go panasonic, they are specilist in those combined hybrid cameras.
Canon wont join this market since there is just not enough profit in it. Panasonic goes almost bankrupt now.

The 5D mark II did well on 1080p, but fullframe sensors just suffer overheating issues on 4k.
1 Inch and MFT sensors rules 4k video in 2016. ACCEPT that.


===============================================================================================
** Personal wishes for lower End fullframe camera*
Now let me get honest, even I start complaining about the 6D mark II although I already made up my mind.
I am not in the run for one. And some of you might question what I am doing here.

The thing I miss in the Current EOS line up are the spec from the Canon 1D classic.
Sync speed up to 1/500, max shutter speed up to 1/16000.
Those are the spec that help prosumers when they first start in budget flash photography. 
It's just a shame canon does not offer a hardcore Low iso performance CCD sensor anymore.
I believe there is still group of photographers that doesnt give a damm thing about the 2016 must have features.
Those 1D classics DSLRs dont have liveview, but not needed actually, on top of that canon has invested in mirrorshake reduction (5DSR).
The reasults of the 1D mark Classic are still useble today. There is a good reason while Lyca still makes use of CCD sensors.

My dream would be. 
- Dual SD slots
- Magnesium body build
- CCD sensor, 8 till 16 MP which is far enough for my A3 prints and online facebooks and sharing.
- Flash sync to 1/500 and shutter 1/16000 like 1D classic
- Buttun layout like the 6D is fair.
- Hoping for a few more C modes for preset of flash and AF track options and more options to store selfmade picture styles.
- AF system of the 80D or 1D classic
- Last thing is I which canon keeps putting a lot efford in making their camera less engery consuming.
- I dont need Wifi connection. Uploading 400 raw files tru internet is a total pain. 
Rather sell SD card readers for smartphones for quick sharing.


######################
Thank you for reading!
######################


----------



## bedford (Oct 6, 2016)

@BasXcanon: thanks for the fresh thoughts and insights! Nice contrast to the usual discussions here.


----------



## Macoose (Oct 6, 2016)

BasXcanon,


Welcome to the CR Forum.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

Macoose


----------



## Maiaibing (Oct 8, 2016)

BasXcanon said:


> I see new Canon 5DSR for 2400 new on the web



Wot?!? That would be the best camera deal ever! Just throw us the link before they are gone...


----------



## Maiaibing (Oct 8, 2016)

BasXcanon said:


> even I start complaining about the 6D mark II although I already made up my mind.
> I am not in the run for one. And some of you might question what I am doing here.



Now you mention it yourself...


----------



## Josh Denver (Oct 9, 2016)

''Video on DSLRS: Get an XC10/XC15"

That's not a camera for the market the shoots video with DSLRs, especially FF DSLRs. It's a s16/1'' deep DOF nimble camera for news and sports and event gathering. Nothing made towards large APS-C and FF sensors with Large iris. 

What i'd say is want video: Just buy a C100.

That's an APS-C camera with a native 4K 8mp sensor downsampled to perfect 1080p. With a body designed for every bit a videographer could want/need. 

Most people don't realize the Cinema EOS C100 is 2499$!! 

If you want 60p slowmotion and swivle vs tilt screen: 

C100 MKII is 3999$ 

This model has a big bright EVF. Large swivle LCD. EF mount. Zebras/peaking/waveform monitor/ 15 assignable buttons, small for, factor, almost DSLR-ish, one of the best 60p slowmotion, clean 422 HDMI out, XLR inputs with real audio knobs, C Log, everything. 

So Canom does offer a DSLR-priced cinema/video option. And the XC10 is for those who were painfully using the 5D with a rode mic for news/documentary.


----------



## tron (Oct 9, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> BasXcanon said:
> 
> 
> > I see new Canon 5DSR for 2400 new on the web
> ...


I bet he is just trolling or the amount of 2400 is in pounds ;D


----------



## BasXcanon (Oct 9, 2016)

The notion of the C100 might be valid, it all depends on the video expectations indeed.

I am a troll?? 
Before the Brexit this https://tesento.com/store/index.php/canon-eos-5ds-r.html
company sold 5DSR for 2500 euros. Believe it or not.





Dunno where you live, but it's almost christmas time and be then Canon always gives you some discount if you have registrated 3 L lenses, 1 Full frame body and 1 Crop and log in on their page.

Please dont play the KEYBOARD WARRIOR.


----------



## Woody (Oct 13, 2016)

I hope 6D Mk II comes with on-board flash. Very useful for me.


----------



## Handrews (Oct 13, 2016)

Hi guys,

Speaking of the 6D2, if you were an APS-C user upgrading to FF, would you go for 5D3 or wait for 6D2? I reckon that launch price for 6D2 would be roughly in the same area as current 5d3 prices.
And how long do you think the 5D3 would be maintained in production?
Thank you,
Andrei


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 13, 2016)

Given that no-one knows the specification of the 6D2 that is impossible to say. But one thing that is certain is that it will not be a 5DIV with a higher spec sensor that some people seem to imagine will come out because that would be called the 5DV. Also the 6D was an entry-level FF camera which means the quality of FF without all the expensive bells and whistles of the 5D/1D series and it is pointless producing a 6D2 that does not maintain that _raison d'etre_.

So if you have APS-C it depends on which one and what functionality you want - resolution for landscapes or AF and shutter speed for action? And a host of other considerations.


----------



## Handrews (Oct 13, 2016)

Correct. I figure the specs will produce little surprises, i.e. 24-28 MP with 5DIV dynamic range, about the same ISO range, touchscreen (with tilt maybe), 5-6 fps, DPAF, no 4K and an AF similar to 80D. In my case, I'm using a 550D, so in either case in would be a major update anyway . As for the purpose, I would certainly value an all-rounder.


----------



## ExodistPhotography (Oct 13, 2016)

Handrews said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Speaking of the 6D2, if you were an APS-C user upgrading to FF, would you go for 5D3 or wait for 6D2? I reckon that launch price for 6D2 would be roughly in the same area as current 5d3 prices.
> And how long do you think the 5D3 would be maintained in production?
> ...



6D2 or even just the 6D... The 5D3 has horrible low light capabilities...


----------



## Handrews (Oct 13, 2016)

I didn't shot with 5d3, but, if I remember correctly, 5d3 central focus point is -2 EV vs 6d -3EV. I see your point, thank you. OTOH, 6d1 has a pretty basic AF, not much different from the one on my 550D


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 13, 2016)

Handrews said:


> I didn't shot with 5d3, but, if I remember correctly, 5d3 central focus point is -2 EV vs 6d -3EV. I see your point, thank you. OTOH, 6d1 has a pretty basic AF, not much different from the one on my 550D



A few years ago I upgraded from 30D+70-300 (the non-L version) to the 7D original + 100-400 original. 
I tried the different combinations and found that the AF of the 30D+100-400 outperformed the 7D+70-300 which surprised me at the time but showed how big a part the lens plays in AF and reinforced the idea of 'glass first'. The real benefit the 7D2/5D and 1Dx is that the focussing modes (especially the multi-point modes) offer greater chance of keeping a moving subject in focus. So really it depends on how much you value photographing moving subjects.


----------



## K (Oct 13, 2016)

Handrews said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Speaking of the 6D2, if you were an APS-C user upgrading to FF, would you go for 5D3 or wait for 6D2? I reckon that launch price for 6D2 would be roughly in the same area as current 5d3 prices.
> And how long do you think the 5D3 would be maintained in production?
> ...



Really depends what you're looking for.


Even the 6D had better image quality than the 5D3. Especially in the shadows. 5D3 will go down as having the worst shadow noise of that generation, and by a good margin. Let's face it, the 5D3 was really bad in that regard. Even minor shadow boosts at low ISO on pretty good exposures would introduce grain. Recoveries of photos was rough due to the severe banding. If your exposures are perfect OR you don't care much about lifting shadows - the 5D3 has a lot of other strong suits - such as a better AF system, data redundancy (2 cards), better build quality, better view finder, better controls, more FPS, so forth and so on. It's more of a professional workhorse designed for a professional work-flow. 


I doubt the 6D2 will have a better AF system than the 5D3, because if it does - then it will be too close to the 5D4 and that could hurt 5D sales. 6D2 will have a weaker system to keep it in the enthusiast category.

That said, the 6D2 will slaughter the 5D3 in image quality due to a much newer and improved sensor. This is based on the 80D, 5D4 and 1DX2 performance. 6D2 can only be better or equal, not worse than those. And these newest releases shows how archaic the 5D3 sensor is, particularly in dynamic range.


If price is the same, I would absolutely go with the 6D2. I would easily sacrifice FPS and AF for the IQ. I would not sacrifice for having 1 card slot though. Because at the end of the day, it's better to have 5D3 photos, than better 6D2 photos that are gone because of some SD card corruption. It is not a matter of if, but of when. 

The 6D2 will also have a lot of newer features - such as -3EV AF which is very handy, anti-flicker, wifi and much more...


And while I bash the 5D3, put it in context. This has been a pro workhorse for 4 years - cranking out amazing images across the industry that will please the most demanding standards for many years to come. It's just not a forgiving sensor of exposure errors. And it does not give much latitude for those who need it (landscape).


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 13, 2016)

K said:


> Really depends what you're looking for.
> 
> 
> Even the 6D had better image quality than the 5D3. Especially in the shadows. 5D3 will go down as having the worst shadow noise of that generation, and by a good margin. Let's face it, the 5D3 was really bad in that regard. Even minor shadow boosts at low ISO on pretty good exposures would introduce grain. Recoveries of photos was rough due to the severe banding. If your exposures are perfect OR you don't care much about lifting shadows - the 5D3 has a lot of other strong suits - such as a better AF system, data redundancy (2 cards), better build quality, better view finder, better controls, more FPS, so forth and so on.* It's more of a professional workhorse designed for a professional work-flow. *



That always amuses me. It was absolutely terrible, the worst of its generation..yet designed for professionals, designed for professional workflow and used by professionals whose very livelihood depended on using such an appalling camera. Perhaps people ought to learn how to use a camera before blaming the camera manufacturer for their shortfalls. 




> And while I bash the 5D3, put it in context. This has been a pro workhorse for 4 years - cranking out amazing images across the industry that will please the most demanding standards for many years to come. It's just not a forgiving sensor of exposure errors. And it does not give much latitude for those who need it (landscape).


Out of interest, how many times does a scene fall between the magic band between the DR capabilities of a Canon 5D3 (or 5D4) and the DR capabilities of a Nikon D800/8100? And compare that to how many times you need bracketing (or filters) whichever camera you use?


----------



## Random Orbits (Oct 13, 2016)

If you shoot things that move then a 5DIII is probably a better choice. That and being able to use outer focus points with fast lenses on moving targets gives you more freedom in framing the way you want rather than framing loose with the center point and cropping hard afterwards.

EV -3 vs. -2 is rarely an issue. You can always use flash assist in darker situations. Gray market pricing for the 5DIV already fell to 3200 USD and might test the 3000 USD soon. That might be something to consider if you're willing to wait for 6DII to arrive.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> Out of interest, how many times does a scene fall between the magic band between the DR capabilities of a Canon 5D3 (or 5D4) and the DR capabilities of a Nikon D800/8100? And compare that to how many times you need bracketing (or filters) whichever camera you use?



It happens constantly, which totally explains why the D800 outsold the 5DIII so well that that Nikon soon released the D810 which outsold the 5DIII even moreso. I know with the horrible shadow noise and complete inability to lift shadows that occurs with the 1D X, I personally have had at least 10 shots that fell in that magic band. 




Random Orbits said:


> EV -3 vs. -2 is rarely an issue.



That's absolutely true. Consider an example of the difference between -2 EV and -3 EV: 1/15 s, f/2.8, ISO 51200 vs 102400. Would either of them produce a usable image? Maybe for a 75x75 thumbnail...


----------



## Handrews (Oct 13, 2016)

Thank you all for your thoughts, much appreciated! I guess I'm leaning towards 5d3..


----------



## Alex_M (Oct 13, 2016)

It is more of AF performance issue in low light situation even with AF assist on than image quality.


neuroanatomist said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > EV -3 vs. -2 is rarely an issue.
> ...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

Alex_M said:


> It is more of AF performance issue in low light situation even with AF assist on than image quality.
> 
> 
> neuroanatomist said:
> ...



My point is that the -2 vs. -3 EV differentiation in AF performance is in conditions of such low light that it's pretty much impossible to get a usable image, so the whole issue of AF performance is moot. In situations where ambeint light is that low, you're either going to need to add light for the shot (in which case you can use AF assist, which in my experience works quite well) or use a very long exposure (in which case you're on a tripod and can use Live View to AF). 

The difference between -2 EV and -3 EV (or -4 EV) for AF functionality looks nice on a spec sheet, but from a _practical_ standpoint it's meaningless – spec sheets don't take pictures.


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 13, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> The difference between -2 EV and -3 EV (or -4 EV) for AF functionality looks nice on a spec sheet, but from a _practical_ standpoint it's meaningless – spec sheets don't take pictures.



But does that increased sensitivity have benefits at higher light levels - for example cameras designed to AF at f8, where the amount of light hitting the AF sensors is reduced, having that greater sensitivity has a real world benefit?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > The difference between -2 EV and -3 EV (or -4 EV) for AF functionality looks nice on a spec sheet, but from a _practical_ standpoint it's meaningless – spec sheets don't take pictures.
> ...



Possibly, but likely not. But it's worth noting that the spec (when it's stated) is usually with an f/1.4 lens. So, an f/8 lens would be letting in 5 stops less light. Still, given than +3 EV is basically a night scene (with not too much artificial light), I can't see many people using a TC + supertele in those circumstances. 

The one situation I can see it possibly mattering is macro shooting, where the effective amount of light reaching the AF sensor is significantly reduced. However, the light loss isn't bad at 1x mag, it becomes an issue with the MP-E 65mm, but AF performance isn't relevant.


----------



## Alex_M (Oct 13, 2016)

no, as far as I know. -2 vs -3 ev issue is more of AF-ability in very and very low light...

As Nero stated above, in very low light and when Flash AF assist is not available, you are on tripod and the live view to the rescue (-3EV in live mode even for 5D mark II, AFAIK)

that said, even for night shots on tripod , I would be usually at ISO 100, F11, around 30 sec shutter speed and thats is only +2EV!! I cannot imagine situation when I need to be at 1024 sec shutter speed to hit -3EV exposure territory. Now, thats dark! May be for Astro work??? not sure. So yes, from ".. a practical standpoint it's meaningless..."


----------



## Mikehit (Oct 13, 2016)

Thanks Neuro, thanks Alex.


----------



## hmatthes (Oct 13, 2016)

*6D is the best SLR I've used.* End of story. My image quality is better than I found with a borrowed 5DIII, almost equal to my Leica. Phenomenal low light capability, great shadow recovery (I am careful in exp. comp. per image), light weight, uses all my EF glass, even the ultra wide.
*Popular complaints: * 
No Flash! Me: Good! I have a Speedlight, rarely use it.
Very few focus points! Me: focus, compose, await the perfect moment. Rarely have focus issues.
Slow frame rate! Me: Good! Don't need a machine gun. Want frame rate, get a 7DII or 1DX2
No flippy screen! I rarely flipped my 70D, I prefer simplicity and durability.

*What do I want in a 6DII? * Same philosophy, bump MP a bit, bump IQ a bit, that all I want... except:
Ultimate 6D replacement:* Mirrorless 6D with "Leica SL quality EVF"*, closer flange but included EF adapter!
Could use all my EF glass, could use Leica glass with adapter, silent operation, super IQ?


----------



## cpsico (Oct 16, 2016)

If this camera follows the trend of highest IQ in the smallest full frame form factor I am all in for this camera. I love photography but sometimes big huge cameras and lenses steals a bit of my joy when at family parties, hiking, or just enjoying the day. This is where my 6d is my favorite camera. There are many small compromises on this camera. but sheer joy of photography for the purpose of beautiful images is not one of the 6d's shortfalls. I look forward to the next evolution of this camera. It is my most loved camera without it being my most capable.


----------

