# Canon officially announces the Canon EOS R5 C



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 19, 2022)

> MELVILLE, NY, January 19, 2022 – Imagine having the best of both worlds at your fingertips. A Canon camera with equal parts video and still digital imaging power, all in one compact-and-lightweight package. Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, is excited to announce the EOS R5 C Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera, a hybrid, RF-mount 8K camera that has something for everyone. The new camera showcases video formats and features from the company’s award-winning Cinema EOS line, alongside select still capabilities that have made the EOS R5 camera a popular and trusted choice among imaging professionals and enthusiasts alike i.
> “Imaging professionals are living in a multimedia world. Gone are the days of only needing to be sufficiently equipped and skilled at video or stills,” said Tatsuro “Tony” Kano, Executive Vice President and General Manager of Canon U.S.A.’s Imaging Technologies...



Continue reading...


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## Alan B (Jan 19, 2022)




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## Bahrd (Jan 19, 2022)

> Canon’s renowned Dual Pixel CMOS AF is functional even in HFR shooting.


@koenkooi, it seems there are no more excuses...


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## bbasiaga (Jan 19, 2022)

No IBIS. That's a good thing according to most of what the video guys post, but the one thing that will make a stills guy really have to think hard deciding between R5 and R5C. 

And the price was on the low end of the predictions! For like the first time ever! Seems like a real beast of a body at that price.

Brian


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## Bukozik (Jan 19, 2022)

And how far does it lag behind the R5 when taking photos?)


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## DiXi (Jan 19, 2022)

So officially no IBIS?


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## DiXi (Jan 19, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> No IBIS. That's a good thing according to most of what the video guys post, but the one thing that will make a stills guy really have to think hard deciding between R5 and R5C.
> 
> And the price was on the low end of the predictions! For like the first time ever! Seems like a real beast of a body at that price.
> 
> Brian



Exactly, i would order it immediately if it had IBIS.

I’m also a little concerned about the weather sealing..


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## Rocksthaman (Jan 19, 2022)

Micro HDMI just seems lazy. If ibis is gone for video shooters this seems like a no brainer.

The price is better than expected from canon, but even the fx3 was $600 less and it included the XLR handle plus full HDMI but is missing the EVF and monitoring tools.

For my event shooters there is also a 9 second delay when switching from photo to video. The camera actually “reboots”. This would drive me nuts. I will say I was really excited about the video/photo switch.


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## goldenhusky (Jan 19, 2022)

Thanks to the forum members who pointed out no IBIS and micro HDMI. I cancelled my pre-order.


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## StandardLumen (Jan 19, 2022)

This really isn't a proper stills camera (no IBIS) or a proper cinema camera (no full size HDMI, no ND, etc).

To me, that means it's a niche camera designed for someone who really wants to shoot 8K on a budget. That's definitely not everyone, but for that purpose, it's probably going to be the best camera on the market. It's too bad that it's a bit crippled, but at least the price is right this time.


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## DBounce (Jan 19, 2022)

DiXi said:


> So officially no IBIS?


I revealed this hours ago and was attacked for it. No IBIS is not the answer… lockable IBIS is the way to go in a hybrid. IMO the lack of IBIS cripples this camera for stills work.

Also, dual booting? Really? This is lazy coding. Canon should have made a true hybrid OS... The whole camera feels like a bunch of afterthoughts piled together. Just like how they graphed that extended fan onto the back of the body. 
I’m guessing this camera was hurriedly cobbled together to answer Sony’s FX3.

Nothing is cohesive. It looks like we’ll have to wait for the R1 to address all the shortcomings?


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## -pekr- (Jan 19, 2022)

For a video camera, it is quite understandable, there is no IBIS. Most of the time it gets mounted to some external rig. But for a photography guy, who would actually like to start explore video, it is a bummer and R5 is a imo a better solution for such ppl.


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## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

DBounce said:


> I revealed this hours ago and was attacked for it. No IBIS is not the answer… lockable IBIS is the way to go in a hybrid. IMO the lack of IBIS cripples this camera for stills work.
> 
> Also, dual booting? Really? This is lazy coding. Canon should have made a true hybrid OS... The whole camera feels like a bunch of afterthoughts piled together. Just like how they graphed that extended fan onto the back of the body.
> I’m guessing this camera was hurriedly cobbled together to answer Sony’s FX3.
> ...


Most professional videographers that are shooting 8k60 are using gimbals and disengage IBIS. I shoot medium format, large format, and many times film for my clients for my stills work. Never needed IBIS on my Pentax 67II. Photographers or videographers that only use one camera are rare. Many already have cameras with IBIS. And have no problem shoting with motion picture equipment without it. Yes amateurs that carry around one single camera for a gig most likely will complain about IBIS. Skill, no substitute for it. Lens stabilization and eye autofocus is all I really need for digital stills. However when shooting film, medium format, and large format, don't need it whatsoever. Many young photogs that have ditched their digital for film are not crying over the lack of IBIS. A gimbal with IBIS engaged? Really?


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## -pekr- (Jan 19, 2022)

DBounce said:


> I revealed this hours ago and was attacked for it. No IBIS is not the answer… lockable IBIS is the way to go in a hybrid. IMO the lack of IBIS cripples this camera for stills work.
> 
> Also, dual booting? Really? This is lazy coding. Canon should have made a true hybrid OS... The whole camera feels like a bunch of afterthoughts piled together. Just like how they graphed that extended fan onto the back of the body.
> I’m guessing this camera was hurriedly cobbled together to answer Sony’s FX3.
> ...



Wait wait wait - it is really a dual boot camera? For a long time IT person, that makes me chuckle  On the other hand, if it boots quite fast, most ppl will not care


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

DBounce said:


> I revealed this hours ago and was attacked for it. No IBIS is not the answer… lockable IBIS is the way to go in a hybrid. IMO the lack of IBIS cripples this camera for stills work.
> 
> Also, dual booting? Really? This is lazy coding. Canon should have made a true hybrid OS... The whole camera feels like a bunch of afterthoughts piled together. Just like how they graphed that extended fan onto the back of the body.
> I’m guessing this camera was hurriedly cobbled together to answer Sony’s FX3.
> ...


As they said in one of their promo videos, it is a cinema camera that can take photos. They didn't have in mind creating a perfect hybrid camera they just did the R5 narrative, where R5 is a photo camera that can take video, here we have the opposite. 
To bad, although it is a decent product. For me the R3 is still a better hybrid solution.

I think canon is just not aware of a market segment of people doing both video and photo basically at the same time, switching from one to another during the shoot. a
But all ogether this is a great video camera, if they sacrificed the ibis for the ND I would straight away order one, but considering it has micro HDMI and no IBIS and no ND... will have to really think if this is a good buy.


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## Chaitanya (Jan 19, 2022)

Alan B said:


>


its really interesting to see camera offering video frame rates going from 1 to 120fps.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Jan 19, 2022)

If Canon implemented/fixed all of the little nit-picks people have with the R5C it would have been more expensive.

seems like a fair price for once, the output quality will be almost impossible to beat for this price… that’s what matters most.

not a bad effort!


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## WaitingForGuac (Jan 19, 2022)

As someone evaluating the R5 for stills + a _little_ bit of video (80% stills/20% video or so), I decided to wait on the R5 C just to see if the extra video features would sweeten the pot. Three points convinced me that for my use case, the R5 will be ideal:


Lack of IBIS
The camera just got a _lot_ bigger in back
$500 more for features that _I_ won't need (of course, YMMV)


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## WaitingForGuac (Jan 19, 2022)

-pekr- said:


> Wait wait wait - it is really a dual boot camera? For a long time IT person, that makes me chuckle  On the other hand, if it boots quite fast, most ppl will not care



I'm have no clue what that means in the context of a camera.


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> If Canon implemented/fixed all of the little nit-picks people have with the R5C it would have been more expensive.
> 
> seems like a fair price for once, the output quality will be almost impossible to beat for this price… that’s what matters most.
> 
> not a bad effort!


I would gladly pay 500$-700$ more for ibis or ND, full hdmi and a solution where you don't turn off camera when switching from mode to mode.


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## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

DiXi said:


> Exactly, i would order it immediately if it had IBIS.
> 
> I’m also a little concerned about the weather sealin
> 
> ...


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## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

StandardLumen said:


> This really isn't a proper stills camera (no IBIS) or a proper cinema camera (no full size HDMI, no ND, etc).
> 
> To me, that means it's a niche camera designed for someone who really wants to shoot 8K on a budget. That's definitely not everyone, but for that purpose, it's probably going to be the best camera on the market. It's too bad that it's a bit crippled, but at least the price is right this time.


"Proper stills" Tell that to many professional photographers that shoot medium, large format, and film. Cameras are niche devices. All of them. As if saying a "proper guitar" or proper paint brush.


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## NorskHest (Jan 19, 2022)

When people say video people don’t want ibis that is a very small group based in Hollywood, gimbals are overrated for many situations. People who buy this are the hike a mountain types that can only cary minimal gear, or people who do content gathering for news work that maybe high paced, canon misses the mark on this by removing the ibis. I shoot and do video work with motocross I legit was wanting this camera to have ibis to keep a more compact set up. Canon went cripple hammer and want people to buy both.


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## StandardLumen (Jan 19, 2022)

jam05 said:


> "Proper stills" Tell that to many professional photographers that shoot medium, large format, and film. Cameras are niche devices. All of them. As if saying a "proper guitar" or proper paint brush.


IBIS is a useful feature in a stills camera. I'd argue not having it means your images, overall in aggregate, will be objectively worse than they would have been if you had purchased a very similar, less expensive camera (the R5). If someone shoots stills a lot more than video, the fact that the R5C costs $500 more than the R5 probably isn't the reason they would choose the R5.

If you want to argue "all cameras are niche," fine. Some are a lot more niche than others.


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## DBounce (Jan 19, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Most professional videographers that are shooting 8k60 are using gimbals and disengage IBIS. I shoot medium format, large format, and many times film for my clients for my stills work. Never needed IBIS on my Pentax 67II. Photographers or videographers that only use one camera are rare. Many already have cameras with IBIS. And have no problem shoting with motion picture equipment without it. Yes amateurs that carry around one single camera for a gig most likely will complain about IBIS. Skill, no substitute for it. Lens stabilization and eye autofocus is all I really need for digital stills. However when shooting film, medium format, and large format, don't need it whatsoever. Many young photogs that have ditched their digital for film are not crying over the lack of IBIS. A gimbal with IBIS engaged? Really?


You contend those that only use one camera are rare… but isn’t the purpose of a hybrid to be suitable for both jobs? So you only need to carry one camera? I’ll agree IBIS is not ideal for video, but in a hybrid the answer is to allow the option for IBIS to be locked down… like Nikon do… not removing it altogether.

This camera feels hurriedly put togethe. Not even the rear LCD screen fits. Am I the only one noticing this?


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## DBounce (Jan 19, 2022)

-pekr- said:


> Wait wait wait - it is really a dual boot camera? For a long time IT person, that makes me chuckle  On the other hand, if it boots quite fast, most ppl will not care


Not fast enough to get the shot unfortunately.


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## DBounce (Jan 19, 2022)

DBounce said:


> You contend those that only use one camera are rare… but isn’t the purpose of a hybrid to be suitable for both jobs? So you only need to carry one camera? I’ll agree IBIS is not ideal for video, but in a hybrid the answer is to allow the option for IBIS to be locked down… like Nikon do… not removing it altogether.
> 
> This camera feels hurriedly put together. Not even the rear LCD screen fits. Am I the only one noticing this? I feel like I’m take crazy pills!


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## DBounce (Jan 19, 2022)

jam05 said:


> "Proper stills" Tell that to many professional photographers that shoot medium, large format, and film. Cameras are niche devices. All of them. As if saying a "proper guitar" or proper paint brush.


I think you missed… In a studio… on a tripod.


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## BruderTux (Jan 19, 2022)

the moving parts of IBIS probably make it a lot harder to get the heat away from the sensor, so I am not too surprised about the removal. Micro HDMI is a bigger bummer imho, though this can also be remedied by adding a micro HDMI / full size HDMI adapter to the cage.


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 19, 2022)

DiXi said:


> So officially no IBIS?


Yes, not surprisingly. As I always guessed, IBIS is the weak link when it gets to effectively cool such a high performing sensor. If you are a bit into semiconductor tech you weren't surprised by the R5's so-called "heating problems" (since it is a stills camera in the first line, Canon did a good job). The massive data rate of 8k video transforms any sensor into a little oven, so it needs a really strong connection with heat sinks to achieve an appropriate cooling rate.

Semiconductor electronics isn't effective when compared with biology. A computer with about the estimated computational performance of a human brain (for experts: in terms of FLOPS is definitely petascale computing required) would consume lots of megawatts and turn most of it into heat. In contrast, our brain consumes about 20 Watts and heats up to roughly 37 degrees Celsius only.


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 19, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Never needed IBIS on my Pentax 67II.


Well, the Pentax 67II has what I'd call "passive IBIS", simply by physical inertia - more than 1.6 kg with OVP, but still no lens, no battery. Fascinating camera. I currently shoot medium format film with the much lighter New Mamiya 6 system, mostly free-hand. With its silent electronic leaf shutters I can get down to 1/30, sometimes even 1/15 s if I have a relaxed day, depending on the lens. Never drink too much coffee before you use such a camera and everything is fine


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## ag25 (Jan 19, 2022)

No IBIS and the separate photo and video modes is unfortunate. 

If 9 seconds between mode switching is correct this kills the camera for a lot of users, including myself.


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## SilverBox (Jan 19, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> I think canon is just not aware of a market segment of people doing both video and photo basically at the same time, switching from one to another during the shoot.


I think Canon is very aware of the market segment of people doing both. As @jam05 said above, many pros have more than one body. I imagine that Canon knows who their customer is, and it's the hybrid shooter that has more than one camera. Now instead of having an R5 for stills and a C70 or C200 for video, a shooter can have an R5c for stills and 8k raw video as well as a smaller camera for gimbal work with superior AF to the rest of the cinema line, as well as their C70/C200 for lockdown shots etc.

I think that this idea that there should be one camera for all things is an antiquated mindset. These are professional tools with specific use cases. I use a 2x R6 bodies for shooting events and when I need more mpix or higher res video, I rent an R5 or C70, or use my backup 5Div.


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## goldenhusky (Jan 19, 2022)

This is Canon' "Business Strategy" sounds like they wanted to sell both cameras to any hybrid shooter. However the micro HDMI does not makes sense at all.


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## adigoks (Jan 19, 2022)

Alan B said:


>


whos figure R5C need 9 second to switch between stills to video?
in gordons laing video its only need 5 second to switch (2:22 - 2 :27). and thats with performing auto sensor cleaning.
with auto sensor cleaning off it should go faster.


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## unfocused (Jan 19, 2022)

WaitingForGuac said:


> As someone evaluating the R5 for stills + a _little_ bit of video (80% stills/20% video or so), I decided to wait on the R5 C just to see if the extra video features would sweeten the pot. Three points convinced me that for my use case, the R5 will be ideal:
> 
> 
> Lack of IBIS
> ...


If your use case is 80% stills then an R5 CINEMA was never going to be the right camera for you.


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## scyrene (Jan 19, 2022)

StandardLumen said:


> IBIS is a useful feature in a stills camera. I'd argue not having it means your images, overall in aggregate, will be objectively worse than they would have been if you had purchased a very similar, less expensive camera (the R5). If someone shoots stills a lot more than video, the fact that the R5C costs $500 more than the R5 probably isn't the reason they would choose the R5.
> 
> If you want to argue "all cameras are niche," fine. Some are a lot more niche than others.


Definitely a useful feature and if I ever buy another camera, I'll get one with it. But it's only been offered by Canon for a couple of years, so you're effectively saying all their other/previous offerings aren't 'proper stills cameras', which is just silly. Plus it's only effective at some focal lengths, and many Canon lenses have IS so missing IBIS isn't depriving you of optical stabilisation. As for 'objectively worse'... I mean, it gives extra options, makes some types of shots easier. But you can't tell from an image whether it used IBIS, ILIS, both, or neither, so again this is a pretty silly statement. Given that it seems from what others are saying here that it's been omitted for good technical reasons, I think focusing on this misses the point somewhat.


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## Gazwas (Jan 19, 2022)

Great camera for those looking to buy an R5 today but really should have been released in July 2020 alongside the R5 and the exaggerated promise of an 8K production camera. 

Sorry Canon, as an R5 owner this leaves me a little disappointed and still has me waiting on a full frame RF Cinema camera with all the pro features like ND, full HDMI, SDI etc, etc, etc.....


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## byjohnburns (Jan 19, 2022)

Hybrid shooter and C300 III and R5 owner who's looked at the C70 with a lot of interest but never pulled the trigger. This was an easy preorder. Canon priced it at the exactly right number to be competitive.

A few things that stand out to me:

No IBIS is a good thing for video -- it drives me crazy on the R5 because it couldn't always be disabled depending on the lens (I don't know if firmware has corrected this). 

Micro HDMI is surprising, but in fairness the point of the camera is to have everything in-body in a small package. This isn't a big studio production camera... it's run and gun fun. The C70 is still the better option at this price point if you're someone who wants to rig up with external monitors, V-mount batteries, etc. 

XFAVC, higher bitrates, the two different menu systems, C-series features such as false color, and obviously the unlimited record time really make this a compelling camera for a hybrid shooter. You don't need anything else except ND and a lot of batteries. 

If you ONLY do video, the C70 is still the obvious option in my opinion.


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## -pekr- (Jan 19, 2022)

The fact that Canon did not opt for the full size HDMI is imo much worse, than missing IBIS :-( What a trash .....


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

SilverBox said:


> I think Canon is very aware of the market segment of people doing both. As @jam05 said above, many pros have more than one body. I imagine that Canon knows who their customer is, and it's the hybrid shooter that has more than one camera. Now instead of having an R5 for stills and a C70 or C200 for video, a shooter can have an R5c for stills and 8k raw video as well as a smaller camera for gimbal work with superior AF to the rest of the cinema line, as well as their C70/C200 for lockdown shots etc.
> 
> I think that this idea that there should be one camera for all things is an antiquated mindset. These are professional tools with specific use cases. I use a 2x R6 bodies for shooting events and when I need more mpix or higher res video, I rent an R5 or C70, or use my backup 5Div.


You misunderstood what I said, I had a few shots where I was shooting a model in one set doing photos and video at the same time, switching between cameras would not be time efficient for me. It was basically I take 10 photos switch to video mode on my R5 and do a clip of a video. The problem with R5 and R6 is that it overheats after a while for the video since it accumulate heat while doing photos. (R6 is a bit better regarding that). The other scenario was where I was covering a hiking event doing photo and video, two cameras are no go since you have to set up your equipment as light as possible.
Also I know a lot of wedding shooters that have the sam approach when doing weddings, they do a video sequence and switch to photo and do photos after. Photojournalist for Reuters are doing also video clips and photos at the same time. I think one camera for everything is a thing of a future not the past. Since there are more and more hybrid shooters.


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## unfocused (Jan 19, 2022)

byjohnburns said:


> Hybrid shooter and C300 III and R5 owner who's looked at the C70 with a lot of interest but never pulled the trigger. This was an easy preorder. Canon priced it at the exactly right number to be competitive.
> 
> A few things that stand out to me:
> 
> ...


Thanks for being a voice of reason in a sea of drama queens. 

Amused by your comment about needing a lot of batteries. One of the first things I wondered about was what the battery life was going to be on this baby, especially since the battery has to run a fan and power accessories through the new hotshoe. I doubt if the external grip will fit the new design and it may not be practical even if it does.


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

Wow - thats all I can say at this point.
I was so looking forward to this camera, and everything in the video was going great - until, of course, he started saying "the still imaging features and operation of the EOS R5C are *nearly *identical".. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop after that. I had long predicted that IBIS would likely not make it in this camera, due to Canon's past practices of subtracting features in order to differentiate their product line. And of course, its missing. And Ill say it now - without IBIS, this camera is *junk*.

For me, this is really depressing. I'm still using my 5D Mark III from 10 years ago - not because I can't afford to buy another camera - but because I haven't found a camera that Canon has yet made that checks off all the boxes I need. All I've been waiting for since the beginning is a proper hybrid - a photo-video shooting product. Without IBIS, this product simply can't compete in the photography realm.

And when Canon inconsistently applies IBIS to their products, it also creates overall inconsistency with product expectations. For instance, Sony has IBIS in all of their pro models, including their video-oriented a7S III (!). This means that when you stick on a lens between an a7S, an a7R, an a7, an a9 or an a1, you know how the lens and body will give you a stabilized image, since all of these models have in-body stabilization. With Canon, there's no such consistency - you still have the EOS R and RP models without in-body stabilization, the R5/R6/R3 with stabilization, and now the R5C without - its really inconsistent, and it makes this complicated for the end user. For instance, should I buy the 24-70 f2.8 lens with in-lens stabilization, or the 28-70 f2 without? On a R3/R5/R6, this doesn't matter since the in-body stabilization is great and both lenses will perform great. But now on a R5C, suddenly that in-lens stabilization is a requirement.

As is always the case when Canon releases a new product and subtracts desired features, I see folks on here trying to defend the decisions - either by stating videographers don't need IBIS or that Canon came through on the price. I would gladly had paid more money for a more complete product. And not everyone uses gimbals for stabilization! And lastly, these cameras are expensive!

For context - I'm in Canada, so a R5C plus battery grip, extra battery, 512 GB CExpress card, RF-EF adapter plus 24-70 f2.8 lens would cost nearly $10K Canadian. If I'm paying that much for a camera, it had better be perfect. No missing features. Right now, for me, this camera is a non-starter, and I am left to ponder whether Canon will ever release a product free from feature subtraction/crippling/etc.

Also please note that this continued issue of feature subtraction/crippling is uniquely a Canon issue. I don't know any other company that does this. Certainly, Sony and Nikon do not. They both put their best foot forward in releasing the best products that people want to buy without the need to diminish features. Canon on the other hand keeps on doing the same thing again and again - releasing products with key features subtracted, forcing you to buy MORE products.

And its sad because I feel that Canon doesn't understand customer needs. More photographers shoot video (in addition to photos) than ever before. Many people brought this up when the original overheating issues concerning the R5 came up. All Canon needed to do was respect the wishes of hybrid shooters and actually create a camera that meets both target needs, which Sony, and now Nikon with the Z9, have done.

This ongoing issue with Canon has just gotten too ridiculous for me. But in hindsight, I suppose this was bound to happen. Canon's real reason for crippling appears to be keeping the Cinema EOS line well protected, and they just released the C70 last year. So I'm not sure where this product was ever going to fit. Perhaps what would have been better is for Canon to release a proper R5 Mark II that fixed all of these issues. And perhaps that R5 Mark II may end up being the true spiritual successor to one of the last "perfect" products that Canon made 12 years ago - the 5D Mark II.

Some other issues that folks have brought up about this camera:
- It just looks weird from a design standpoint
- The totally separate video/photo UI is weird and feels like Canon just frankensteined the whole thing together. My 10-year-old 5D Mark III switches from video to photo mode at anytime without time delay. Why does this product have to be so different?
- Lack of full-sized HDMI

So I guess now, I wait for the R1? And likely a $10-13K price tag all in with lenses/cards/battery/etc? Sigh!


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## unfocused (Jan 19, 2022)

DBounce said:


> ...Am I the only one noticing this? I feel like I’m take crazy pills!


You are definitely not the only one who thinks you take crazy pills.


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## unfocused (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> ...without IBIS, this camera is *junk*.


Just like the 1DxIII and every DSLR Canon has ever made. All junk because they don't have In-Body Stabilization. I mean, how can anyone shoot a decent picture without IBIS?


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## entoman (Jan 19, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> No IBIS. That's a good thing according to most of what the video guys post, but the one thing that will make a stills guy really have to think hard deciding between R5 and R5C.
> 
> And the price was on the low end of the predictions! For like the first time ever! Seems like a real beast of a body at that price.
> 
> Brian


Why would a stills guy even remotely consider the R5C?

The R5 is significantly cheaper, lighter, less bulky, and has IBIS...

I do agree about the price of the R5C, which is a lot lower than anyone expected - I think we have Nikon to thank for that.

At this point I think the most relevant question is whether people would be better off spending a bit more and getting the Nikon Z9, which from initial impressions seems to be able to do everything that the R5C can do - but retains IBIS, and doesn't need a fan to keep it cool when shooting hi-end video... I'm very happy with my R5 for stills, and I'm tied into Canon glass, but if it was economically viable, I'd have little or no hesitation in switching to a Z9.


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## bbasiaga (Jan 19, 2022)

unfocused said:


> If your use case is 80% stills then an R5 CINEMA was never going to be the right camera for you.


yeah. I think its pretty clear this is the camera for the 80/20 video/stills shooter, and the R5 is the opposite. 

Pretty wild that 18 months ago 8k in a camera or hybrid body was unheard of, and now there is an 8K machine at this price point. How fast technology marches sometimes is amazing. 

Brian


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## Quackator (Jan 19, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> I would gladly pay 500$-700$ more for ibis or ND, full hdmi and a solution where you don't turn off camera when switching from mode to mode.


And I have been on record to state gladly paying more for a camera without IBIS. 
The R5C will be the next camera in my shopping cart.


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> Wow - thats all I can say at this point.
> I was so looking forward to this camera, and everything in the video was going great - until, of course, he started saying "the still imaging features and operation of the EOS R5C are *nearly *identical".. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop after that. I had long predicted that IBIS would likely not make it in this camera, due to Canon's past practices of subtracting features in order to differentiate their product line. And of course, its missing. And Ill say it now - without IBIS, this camera is *junk*.
> 
> For me, this is really depressing. I'm still using my 5D Mark III from 10 years ago - not because I can't afford to buy another camera - but because I haven't found a camera that Canon has yet made that checks off all the boxes I need. All I've been waiting for since the beginning is a proper hybrid - a photo-video shooting product. Without IBIS, this product simply can't compete in the photography realm.
> ...


Well for me it was either this or the R3. Since it misses some to me really important features, and now knowing all this I think the R3 is a better hybrid solution so I guess I'll go with it, sell my r6 and keep R5 for the shoots where I need the extra mpx. I just don't understand from what you have written here what is wrong with the R3? 
Btw although I'm disappointed regarding a lot of things I think the R5c is a really interesting cinema camera, but not so interesting hybrid camera to a lot of people.


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Just like the 1DxIII and every DSLR Canon has ever made. All junk because they don't have In-Body Stabilization. I mean, how can anyone shoot a decent picture without IBIS?


Well no offense but based upon what you're saying, I should just stick with my 5D Mark III because it works fine.
The point is camera technology continues to advance, pricing keeps going up, and consumers expect more features.
I expect IBIS in every R-series Canon camera, and why not? It's about creating consistency across the product line, so you know how your lens will work with each R-series body. Makes it easy to decide if I buy a lens with in-lens IS or not. 
And furthermore, please lets stop defending the cripple hammer. I always see it, and when you defend the practice, Canon just keeps doing it.


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## entoman (Jan 19, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Just like the 1DxIII and every DSLR Canon has ever made. All junk because they don't have In-Body Stabilization. I mean, how can anyone shoot a decent picture without IBIS?


I still use a 5DMkiv alongside my R5, so I'm used to experiencing the difference that IBIS can make. Sure, it's absolutely possible to take razor sharp photos without IBIS, but an improvement of roughly 2 stops (in my experience) is nothing to be sniffed at. I find it results in greatly improved keeper rates, and the ability to shoot at lower ISO, so it's disappointing that Canon excluded IBIS from the R5C - especially as the competing models from Nikon and Sony do have IBIS (at a price premium admittedly).


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Well for me it was either this or the R3. Since it misses some to me really important features, and now knowing all this I think the R3 is a better hybrid solution so I guess I'll go with it, sell my r6 and keep R5 for the shoots where I need the extra mpx. I just don't understand from what you have written here what is wrong with the R3?
> Btw although I'm disappointed regarding a lot of things I think the R5c is a really interesting cinema camera, but not so interesting hybrid camera to a lot of people.


Yep same with me. The R3 just made a lot less sense once Nikon announced the Z9. If Canon knocked the price of the R3 down by $1000, then I think it becomes much more palatable. At this point, I'm thinking the R5 Mark II (another 1-2 year wait at least) or the R1..


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

Quackator said:


> And I have been on record to state gladly paying more for a camera without IBIS.
> The R5C will be the next camera in my shopping cart.


Well I thinking more like the ibis to be like nikon's with a locking ability. And with an ability to decide to have it turned of and only lens IS on would be nice.


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## bbasiaga (Jan 19, 2022)

entoman said:


> Why would a stills guy even remotely consider the R5C?
> 
> The R5 is significantly cheaper, lighter, less bulky, and has IBIS...
> 
> ...


Remember, this is the internet. WHere the R5 was a total failure because it couldn't do unlimited 8k. The discourse over the past years has had people who don't use these features often 'waiting' for the R5C, hoping it would 'fix' the R5. 

But my comment was originally more about the feature set being a big differentiator between the two. They are more different than might have been expected given they share a model number. Canon did a good job of making it clear which of these you really need. Case in point, R5C is clearly not a a camera for me. 


You correctly identify that the switch to a Z9 is not cheap. Especially if this is your b-cam and you're in the Canon system with your others. And we haven't seen 8K60 yet in the Z9, and what limitations it may have. WHether $1k more for 2 ish stops of additional stabilization is worth it to some is up to them (typically 2 additional stops is what is estimated when you combine IBIS with lens IS). As a foot note, the Z9 pricing being too low for what it is does make for an interesting twist in that decision - i'm sure that's why Nikon decided to go low on it, to attract as many users back to the system as possible. Ultimately, R5C is going to be great for 8K on a budget, and have all of the stills functionality of its cousin, minus a stop or two of stabilization (which you didn't even have on your 5D4 or 1DXIII, but still did fine without).

Brian


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Just like the 1DxIII and every DSLR Canon has ever made. All junk because they don't have In-Body Stabilization. I mean, how can anyone shoot a decent picture without IBIS?


try shooting 20mpx camera and then a 45 mpx camera especially one that is lighter and a smaller form factor without IS and then come back, there is a huge difference in what is needed to get a sharper image. Also the IBIS combine with IS can offer so many benefits to a shooter, from not using a tripod when needed and also helps in a low light situations, or if you are moving and shooting to reduce breathing shakes.


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## AJ (Jan 19, 2022)

justaCanonuser said:


> As I always guessed, IBIS is the weak link when it gets to effectively cool such a high performing sensor. If you are a bit into semiconductor tech you weren't surprised by the R5's so-called "heating problems" (since it is a stills camera in the first line, Canon did a good job). The massive data rate of 8k video transforms any sensor into a little oven, so it needs a really strong connection with heat sinks to achieve an appropriate cooling rate.



Makes sense. The IBIS assembly got in the way of the cooling system, rather than Canon cheaping out.


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 19, 2022)

What happened to the lens announcements and modules for the c300 MK III and c500 MK II?


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## unfocused (Jan 19, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> try shooting 20mpx camera and then a 45 mpx camera especially one that is lighter and a smaller form factor without IS and then come back, there is a huge difference in what is needed to get a sharper image. Also the IBIS combine with IS can offer so many benefits to a shooter, from not using a tripod when needed and also helps in a low light situations, or if you are moving and shooting to reduce breathing shakes.


Then use an R5. What about CINEMA do people not understand? As others have explained, Canon needed to remove IBIS in order to offer efficient cooling for cinema use. If you need IBIS because you can't get a sharp picture with a stabilized lens, then buy an R5.


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## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2022)

My one comment on the comments: a bunch of people are throwing up their hands and waiting for the R1. I do not think that the R1 is going to be a solution to many of their complaints. The assumption - because the R3 has low resolution - that the R1 will have higher resolution so as to be able to shoot 8K is not at all a safe bet. 

Canon over time has considered high resolution and video cameras to be non-flagship, somewhat niche-y products. An R1 is likely to continue the decade-long tradition of disappointing on resolution. It is likely to have awesome 6K video features, and a more intelligent heat sinking layout than that of the R5, but unlikely to have active cooling. If the R1 goes to 45 megapixels, I would be very pleasantly surprised.

All this is to say that if you want 8K, you should probably use the R5, and if you need 8K 60p or longer-form clips in 8K 30p, or perhaps just a bunch of those video features akin to the cine cameras, you probably want the R5c.

Last couple days I've been collecting specs to create comparison charts among the major players in hybrid cameras for addition to an R3 review section, and it shows some advantages for the R5C over and above the Sony A1, Nikon Z9 and Canon R3 (and some disadvantages too).


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## TiMLud (Jan 19, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> No IBIS. That's a good thing according to most of what the video guys post, but the one thing that will make a stills guy really have to think hard deciding between R5 and R5C.
> 
> And the price was on the low end of the predictions! For like the first time ever! Seems like a real beast of a body at that price.
> 
> Brian


Still guys can use a tripod or just hold the camera still. (no IBIS)


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> Yep same with me. The R3 just made a lot less sense once Nikon announced the Z9. If Canon knocked the price of the R3 down by $1000, then I think it becomes much more palatable. At this point, I'm thinking the R5 Mark II (another 1-2 year wait at least) or the R1..


The R1 will likely be substantially more expensive, and while I suspect it will have QPAF or some other tech equivalent to cross-type AF points and be blazing fast, I don't think the specs will be hugely different from the Z9. So, waiting for the R1 does not really make sense.

For many years, brand choice was really about lens selection. In some ways, that hasn't changed. I really like my compact 70-200/2.8 and my 28-70/2, and those aren't available for Nikon or Sony, so the R3 makes a lot of sense, to me.

Just a general comment, I don't have a horse in the video race as I don't use my ILCs for that, except a few seconds of footage I once shot on my 1D X by accident while customizing the buttons.


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

unfocused said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Then use an R5. What about CINEMA do people not understand? As others have explained, Canon needed to remove IBIS in order to offer efficient cooling for cinema use. If you need IBIS because you can't get a sharp picture with a stabilized lens, then buy an R5.


Well I need a good Hybrid camera, with video without handicaps R5 is missing a lot of those check points. As I said unfortunately I think I will have to extend for the R3, would prefer slightly cheaper and smaller R5c with IBIS since I think Switching to another system would be a waste of money.
Also I have 28-70 which is not stabilised and that is the lens I use for 70% of my work...Don't understand your "aggressive" attitude? So people can't be disapointed? Especially after spending a decent house with a property on the equipment in last few years?


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## Jasonmc89 (Jan 19, 2022)

Everyone crying about no IBIS like it’s the first Canon to be built without it..

You never had it in your DSLRs. It’s a hybrid camera. It can still take INCREDIBLE pictures.


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## SHAMwow (Jan 19, 2022)

Almost none of you WERE going to buy this camera. Almost none of you ARE going to buy this camera. Everyone simmer down here. With Canon delivering cameras like the R6, R5, R3, when they produce a product that isn't for me I couldn't care less now because they've addressed the holes in their lineup core where they were lacking. Plus, where did all the "if they added $500 for a model with a fan, I'd definitely buy that" people at? Oh wait, people just say stuff.


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## degos (Jan 19, 2022)

What a shame they invested time and effort in this Frankenstein monster instead of getting an R7 into production.


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## slclick (Jan 19, 2022)

degos said:


> What a shame they invested time and effort in this Frankenstein monster instead of getting an R7 into production.


And who is to say they haven't? Maybe it's not fitting into 'our' timeline here on CR but I bet the Canon R 1.6x is coming. 

I've heard this complaint a thousand times over the years, an announcement is made and a small minority cry for something else totally unrelated.


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## unfocused (Jan 19, 2022)

entoman said:


> I still use a 5DMkiv alongside my R5, so I'm used to experiencing the difference that IBIS can make. Sure, it's absolutely possible to take razor sharp photos without IBIS, but an improvement of roughly 2 stops (in my experience) is nothing to be sniffed at...


I simply think there is a world of difference between "nothing to be sniffed at" and "without IBIS, this camera is junk."


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## Gazwas (Jan 19, 2022)

A really nice feature would be a trade in/up program for those of us with R5's who shoot a lot of video.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 19, 2022)

SHAMwow said:


> Almost none of you WERE going to buy this camera. Almost none of you ARE going to buy this camera.


Same is true for the complaints about the R3, etc.


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## LukasS (Jan 19, 2022)

So much drama in this thread...

I didn't pull the trigger on C70 due to lacking AF but I think R5C will be as close to perfect for me as currently possible.

For me biggest issue will always be with NDs, but I never anticipated in a mirrorless style body built-in ND filters, so no surprise there.

Having two OSes, one for photo and video mode is brilliant, as an engineer (software) it makes just sense - especially given that they have two different lines of products - which makes a lot of sense if there will be people using mostly one mode (video in this case)...

Looking at CVP coverage of the R5C it takes ~5sec for a switch to be fully completed - which might be long for some - but for me definitely workable.

Otherwise love it - the form factor, the same weather sealing and other things.


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## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

DiXi said:


> Exactly, i would order it immediately if it had IBIS.
> 
> I’m also a little concerned about the weather sealing..


I already ordered it immediately locally, I personally dont need IBIS with a gimbal. The R5 has all the IBIS that I need.


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## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

Maybe, without those that need IBIS on every single one of their cameras, there may be more units available for those without that requirement.


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## peters (Jan 19, 2022)

SHAMwow said:


> Almost none of you WERE going to buy this camera. Almost none of you ARE going to buy this camera. Everyone simmer down here. With Canon delivering cameras like the R6, R5, R3, when they produce a product that isn't for me I couldn't care less now because they've addressed the holes in their lineup core where they were lacking. Plus, where did all the "if they added $500 for a model with a fan, I'd definitely buy that" people at? Oh wait, people just say stuff.


I preorded today  
Gonna replace one of my R5 with it. 
I think its a perfect camera, given the versatility and quality. There is pretty much no compromise at all for me in this camera =)


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## Hector1970 (Jan 19, 2022)

Not a camera I would be interested in as video doesn't mean a whole lot to me.
First impressions - quite chunky.
Second impression hard to please all the people with the same device.
Lack of IBIS - I've lived my whole life without it and can still take unblurred photographs.
Micro HDMI - Is this really a big deal, what's another cable type, I've about 20 as it is. Another one wouldn't bother me. Full HDMI is a quite a large connection I'm surprise any camera can give up that much space for it (but they do).
Price seems reasonable for a Cinema camera. 
An R5 would be enough for most people


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## bbasiaga (Jan 19, 2022)

Gazwas said:


> A really nice feature would be a trade in/up program for those of us with R5's who shoot a lot of video.


There is still a pretty strong secondary market for R5s. You're lucky in that respect, though there is a little more work on your end to post it, sell, it and ship it. Probably do better that way though than trading in at your local dealer. 

Brian


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## NorskHest (Jan 19, 2022)

Apparently there is no animal eye autofocus in video mode. Seems it is using dpaf version 1 for video mode and the current battery grip will work on the camera.


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 19, 2022)

unfocused said:


> I simply think there is a world of difference between "nothing to be sniffed at" and "without IBIS, this camera is junk."


Absolutely. I think for a lot of people they expected IBIS to be in it because it was in the R5, and also for many having IBIS in it was one of those points that put them over the top on it and they’d pre order same day. I’m not in that group, but I understand the sentiment.

i have a c70, R6, 5DsR, 7D, & a c500 currently. I use them all in different scenarios. There are definitely times I wish the 5DsR had IBIS. So many times. I’m absolutely keeping the c70. For me the choice was this, or save for the R1. I’m definitely leaning towards the R1, will probably sell the rest soon, and pick up a second c70 in the meantime. But everyone has their hopes, and everyone has the specific specs that take a product over the top for them.

If i were starting out and did both photo and video, it would be this hands down. An amazing upgrade for a lot of newer / newish shooters. one body, amazing specs overall, get to save some money( if you’re in this price range anyway) to put into other gear for it.


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 19, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> Apparently there is no animal eye autofocus in video mode. Seems it is using dpaf version 1 for video mode and the current battery grip will work on the camera.


Really? I was hoping we’d get that over on the c70, but sadly no. Really surprised that’s it’s not in this.

Anyone know of any technical limitations as to why they would omit it from the cinema side on the R5 C?


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

SHAMwow said:


> Almost none of you WERE going to buy this camera. Almost none of you ARE going to buy this camera. Everyone simmer down here. With Canon delivering cameras like the R6, R5, R3, when they produce a product that isn't for me I couldn't care less now because they've addressed the holes in their lineup core where they were lacking. Plus, where did all the "if they added $500 for a model with a fan, I'd definitely buy that" people at? Oh wait, people just say stuff.


I would've preordered immediately if it had IBIS. I can live with Micro-HDMI and the other issues, but it needed IBIS for the type of run-and-gun shooting that I like to do.

But I also do a lot of photography. And when I do that photography, I inevitability end up shooting video. But now I don't have IBIS. And when I look at the costs of jumping into the RF world from EF, I really do not want to face any trade offs. 

BTW - I don't think the R5 ever needed a fan at all. The 1DC never needed a fan - all it had was a very well designed heat sink. Ultimately the R5 just needed a better designed heat sink as well. 

So there's no good excuse here for why IBIS was removed, other than finding a convenient way to differentiate the products and forcing you to buy separate photo and video products - which seems to have always been the Canon gameplan from day 1.

The sad part here - which was expressed in the early R5 reviews - is that more photographers are doing videography. Its not that people are taking less photos, but just that more people are also taking video. So a hybrid shooter is really want consumers want. *So does Canon really understand the market anymore?*


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## SereneSpeed (Jan 19, 2022)

While I certainly understand the disappointment with no IBIS, dual-boot, micro HDMI... I also see the potential here. There are a lot of people already loving the current R5 for video production. People who are making a good living with the current offering. But, now, with what looks to be a scaled down R&D cycle for a 'new' camera release, Canon has the potential to make a lot of people happy. This camera is going to be a solid performer, for a good price. This looks like a camera that will make Canon a lot of money. I'd love to know how much of the R5 parts and manufacturing process is shared between the two iterations.


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## Gazwas (Jan 19, 2022)

CanonGrunt said:


> Really? I was hoping we’d get that over on the c70, but sadly no. Really surprised that’s it’s not in this.
> 
> Anyone know of any technical limitations as to why they would omit it from the cinema side on the R5 C?


Because that will be a feature held back for the next run of RF cinema cameras.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 19, 2022)

For all those status conscious people out there, the shutter release is red. That matches the red rings in your lenses and the red accent in the digital crown of your Apple Watch.


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## jeffbenjam (Jan 19, 2022)

This camera looks downright amazing for those who primarily shoot video. I already preordered. Here's my biggest concern, though. The Canon C70 has extremely sub-par autofocus capabilities compared to the R5. I'm concerned with canon splitting between two different OSes, that the AF performance in video mode will be more akin to that of the C70, while the photos mode will be similar to the R5. Is there any logical reason for me to have this concern? Sorry for all of the typos!


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## Busted Knuckles (Jan 19, 2022)

StandardLumen said:


> This really isn't a proper stills camera (no IBIS) or a proper cinema camera (no full size HDMI, no ND, etc).
> 
> To me, that means it's a niche camera designed for someone who really wants to shoot 8K on a budget. That's definitely not everyone, but for that purpose, it's probably going to be the best camera on the market. It's too bad that it's a bit crippled, but at least the price is right this time.


8k on a budget? What are you doing post processing on? Simple clip editing would take a pretty stout computer. Color grading etc omg x 20


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 19, 2022)

jeffbenjam said:


> This camera looks downright amazing for those who primarily shoot video. I already preordered. Here's my biggest concern, though. The Canon C70 has extremely sub-par autofocus capabilities compared to the R5. I'm concerned with canon splitting between two different OSes, that the AF performance in video mode will be more akin to that of the C70, while the photos mode will be similar to the R5. Is there any logical reason for me to have this concern? Sorry for all of the typos!


Someone on here said that the R5C in Cinema mode has the same AF from the c70. Not sure, but you might want to look into that if that is your concern.


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## dtaylor (Jan 19, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> When people say video people don’t want ibis that is a very small group based in Hollywood, gimbals are overrated for many situations. People who buy this are the hike a mountain types that can only cary minimal gear, or people who do content gathering for news work that maybe high paced, canon misses the mark on this by removing the ibis.


These people need actively cooled, unlimited 8k recording? Really?

This camera is not targeted at those people. Those people should be looking at an R3, a regular R5, an R6, or for true minimal gear/long hike scenarios, an M6 mark II.


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## jeffbenjam (Jan 19, 2022)

CanonGrunt said:


> Someone on here said that the R5C in Cinema mode has the same AF from the c70. Not sure, but you might want to look into that if that is your concern.


Yikes. If that's the case, then wow. This camera just quickly fell off my radar. I really hope that's not true.


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## SteveC (Jan 19, 2022)

degos said:


> What a shame they invested time and effort in this Frankenstein monster instead of getting an R7 into production.


From some people's point of view sticking an APS-C sensor behind a mount meant for full frame would also be a "Frankenstein monster."


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 19, 2022)

jeffbenjam said:


> Yikes. If that's the case, then wow. This camera just quickly fell off my radar. I really hope that's not true.


I have no idea why they would do that, but I’m definitely looking into it. It makes little sense to me that they’d leave that out. I do some wildlife work, and that is where I would really want that personally. That’s my no go for it. Would rather have an R5 than an R5C if it’s true. I love the Animal AF on my R6.


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## StandardLumen (Jan 19, 2022)

Busted Knuckles said:


> 8k on a budget? What are you doing post processing on? Simple clip editing would take a pretty stout computer. Color grading etc omg x 20


It's true that not just any computer is well-suited for handling 8K, but you only need to spend $3-4k for a computer that's up to the task. 8K cinema cameras usually run $20k+. Off the top of my head, the least expensive option other than the R5/R5C is the Sony A1 at $6500.

EDIT: The Z9 somehow slipped my mind, but that one is still $5500.


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## jeffbenjam (Jan 19, 2022)

CanonGrunt said:


> I have no idea why they would do that, but I’m definitely looking into it. It makes little sense to me that they’d leave that out. I do some wildlife work, and that is where I would really want that personally. That’s my no go for it. Would rather have an R5 than an R5C if it’s true. I love the Animal AF on my R6.


Same. If this is the case, I'll have to sadly cancel my preorder. I was so disappointed with the AF performance on the C70. It was like 10 steps backwards compared to the R5's great auto focus. I'd just stick to my R5 and keep doing the time trick to bypass the overheating message.


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## melgross (Jan 19, 2022)

So, the IBIS question is confusing. Canon says, and it’s here in the published section CR provided:


Coordinated image stabilization (with Canon lenses equipped with optical IS) helps to correct hand-shake and better anti-vibration performance than electronic IS alone
so, while apparently no mechanical body stabilization, it does at least have electronic body stabilization.

really, we’ll have to wait to see how well this works.


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 19, 2022)

jeffbenjam said:


> Same. If this is the case, I'll have to sadly cancel my preorder. I was so disappointed with the AF performance on the C70. It was like 10 steps backwards compared to the R5's great auto focus. I'd just stick to my R5 and keep doing the time trick to bypass the overheating message.


I’m looking at the specs sheet now. I don’t see anything that says this though. So maybe it is the R5’s system on the video side? Here is what I found…


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## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

DiXi said:


> So officially no IBIS?


Nope, don't need it really.


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## Bonich (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> I would've preordered immediately if it had IBIS. I can live with Micro-HDMI and the other issues, but it needed IBIS for the type of run-and-gun shooting that I like to do.
> 
> But I also do a lot of photography. And when I do that photography, I inevitability end up shooting video. But now I don't have IBIS. And when I look at the costs of jumping into the RF world from EF, I really do not want to face any trade offs.
> 
> ...


The sensor's cooling doing this crazy speed (i.e. 8k 60) is the thing you call "excuse" (no IBIS)
It is a technical need.


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## NorskHest (Jan 19, 2022)

CanonGrunt said:


> Really? I was hoping we’d get that over on the c70, but sadly no. Really surprised that’s it’s not in this.
> 
> Anyone know of any technical limitations as to why they would omit it from the cinema side on the R5 C?


CVP has a video that goes way in-depth and they cover the autofocus differences between photo and video, so does news shooter as well as cine d. Hopefully a firmware fix but I doubt it. Seems like running a atomos and a r5 is still a better solution than this camera. The time code addition is nice but the caveats are a bit much. You have the greatest autofocus in the r5 and then you cripple hammer it.


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## Bonich (Jan 19, 2022)

Busted Knuckles said:


> 8k on a budget? What are you doing post processing on? Simple clip editing would take a pretty stout computer. Color grading etc omg x 20


You are not forced to shoot 8k, go into the menus .....


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 19, 2022)

CanonGrunt said:


> I’m looking at the specs sheet now. I don’t see anything that says this though. So maybe it is the R5’s system on the video side? Here is what I found…





jeffbenjam said:


> Same. If this is the case, I'll have to sadly cancel my preorder. I was so disappointed with the AF performance on the C70. It was like 10 steps backwards compared to the R5's great auto focus. I'd just stick to my R5 and keep doing the time trick to bypass the overheating message.




Oh, It’s Duel Pixel CMOS AF 1 for Video and DPAF 2 for Photos... Bizarre….


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## byjohnburns (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> Well no offense but based upon what you're saying, I should just stick with my 5D Mark III because it works fine.
> The point is camera technology continues to advance, pricing keeps going up, and consumers expect more features.
> I expect IBIS in every R-series Canon camera, and why not? It's about creating consistency across the product line, so you know how your lens will work with each R-series body. Makes it easy to decide if I buy a lens with in-lens IS or not.
> And furthermore, please lets stop defending the cripple hammer. I always see it, and when you defend the practice, Canon just keeps doing it.


I've been hoping from day 1 that the R5C wouldn't have IBIS. No professional cinema camera does, and for good reason. It creates horrible warping and distortion at wide angles in video that, unlike a simple warp-stabilizer added in post (which produces identical results when executed properly), is completely unfixable. Digital IS in the C70 and C300 is much better and I often utilize it, but to each their own.

I think it would have been cool if IBIS was included and you could disengage it on all lenses, but ditching it to reduce heat buildup makes plenty of sense. I personally don't have the degrees/certifications to question what Canon presents as an engineering decision. I would speculate that removing IBIS also reduced power draw to compensate for the extra draw introduced by the fan, higher bitrates, etc - thereby extending battery life. 

IBIS is handy for handheld long exposure. But with the high ISO performance of the sensor, just throw a fast lens on and crank the shutter to 1/150 or 1/200. Any shot at 1/50 with movement in front of the lens is likely going to be unusable anyway. I'd gander that most people shoot at slow shutter speeds far less often than they think. I shot on the original R for a year and the 70D for years before that and never took a picture that was blurry due to a lack of IBIS.


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## reef58 (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> Wow - thats all I can say at this point.
> I was so looking forward to this camera, and everything in the video was going great - until, of course, he started saying "the still imaging features and operation of the EOS R5C are *nearly *identical".. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop after that. I had long predicted that IBIS would likely not make it in this camera, due to Canon's past practices of subtracting features in order to differentiate their product line. And of course, its missing. And Ill say it now - without IBIS, this camera is *junk*.
> 
> For me, this is really depressing. I'm still using my 5D Mark III from 10 years ago - not because I can't afford to buy another camera - but because I haven't found a camera that Canon has yet made that checks off all the boxes I need. All I've been waiting for since the beginning is a proper hybrid - a photo-video shooting product. Without IBIS, this product simply can't compete in the photography realm.
> ...


I am no video expert just getting into it, but none of their cinema cameras have IBIS that I am aware of, C70, C100, C200, C300, or C500. This is a video centric camera. What surprises me is the micro HDMI and non matching card slots, which would be fine if both could handle the video output which they can't. That is the head scratcher to me. 

That being said it is hard to find a perfect camera. The C100 has the perfect form factor I think and I love an EVF. The C200 is a bit better, but 8 bit or raw are the only options. The C300 doesn't come with an EVF. Canon does not make an EVF for the C70, and the Zacuto models require power. The horrors the horrors. Ha


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## DBounce (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> Yep same with me. The R3 just made a lot less sense once Nikon announced the Z9. If Canon knocked the price of the R3 down by $1000, then I think it becomes much more palatable. At this point, I'm thinking the R5 Mark II (another 1-2 year wait at least) or the R1..


I actually prefer the image from the R3 to the Nikon Z9. While lower resolution it’s also less noisy and features more dynamic range than the Nikon. It also weighs much less than the Nikon. Meaning you’ll be more inclined to take it along. It a personal choice but for me the R3 is the clear winner.


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## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

melgross said:


> So, the IBIS question is confusing. Canon says, and it’s here in the published section CR provided:
> 
> 
> Coordinated image stabilization (with Canon lenses equipped with optical IS) helps to correct hand-shake and better anti-vibration performance than electronic IS alone
> ...


How well has it already been working? We do not have to wait and see. There's no IBIS on practically ALL pro cinemas cameras. There is IBIS on a few handfull of hybrid cameras. Not as if movies and content need IBIS to to be produced.


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## vladk (Jan 19, 2022)

I am blown away.
Huge video advancements with single downgrade compared to R5, and with minor price increase.
No IBIS is probably because the sensor is connected to heatsink which makes its fast flexing impossible.
I need to see how loud the fan is, and how juice hungry it is.
Conventional video cameras usually have battery connected externally which allows for a bigger on-body battery. Not with R5C, so external power is a must I'd assume.
Looking for real hybrid user reviews before replacing my really old SONY 4K camcorder


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## DBounce (Jan 19, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Then use an R5. What about CINEMA do people not understand? As others have explained, Canon needed to remove IBIS in order to offer efficient cooling for cinema use.


Yet somehow Panasonic has managed to figure out how to provide active cooling and IBIS in the S1H that was released 3 years ago? I’m gonna call BS on Canon’s excuse. Canon also claimed they left out IBIS because video shooters use gimbals. I wonder who’s taking stills on a gimbal?


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## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

reef58 said:


> I am no video expert just getting into it, but none of their cinema cameras have IBIS that I am aware of, C70, C100, C200, C300, or C500.  This is a video centric camera. What surprises me is the micro HDMI and non matching card slots, which would be fine if both could handle the video output which they can't. That is the head scratcher to me.
> 
> That being said it is hard to find a perfect camera. The C100 has the perfect form factor I think and I love an EVF. The C200 is a bit better, but 8 bit or raw are the only options. The C300 doesn't come with an EVF. Canon does not make an EVF for the C70, and the Zacuto models require power. The horrors the horrors. Ha


Cry me a river. Because some are unable to use or lack the skill thereof to use a gimbal or rack focus on a professional cinema camera, don't come preaching to us about it. Like those that can't drive an automobile with manual shifting. Use something else that you can handle . It aint your world today, we understand.


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## reef58 (Jan 19, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Cry me a river. Because some are unable to use or lack the skill thereof to use a gimbal or rack focus on a professional cinema camera, don't come preaching to us about it. Like those that can't drive an automobile with manual shifting. Use something else that you can handle . It aint your world today, we understand.


I have no idea what you are talking about? I was merely pointing out Canon Cinema cameras don't have IBIS in response to another poster who insisted this camera should have IBIS to be consistent. You seem to be off on a wild tangent about who knows what.


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## dtaylor (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> For me, this is really depressing. I'm still using my 5D Mark III from 10 years ago - not because I can't afford to buy another camera - but because I haven't found a camera that Canon has yet made that checks off all the boxes I need.


You need unlimited 8k long take recording and IBIS? Really? 4k recording with IBIS isn't enough? Short run 8k recording with IBIS isn't enough? What are you filming that you absolutely need unlimited 8k long takes...but also IBIS...so neither the R5 nor the R5c meet your needs? And you need this so bad...you're still using a 5D mark III with 1080p? You need unlimited 8k with IBIS for your films but you've been getting by, for years, on 1080p with no IBIS?

When the R5/R6 first hit I was one of the people who was very upset over the thermal limits because they made the bodies practically unusable for filming of any kind. Turns out that was bad firmware and Canon fixed it rather quickly. They still have thermal limits, but they aren't that much worse than something like a Fuji X-T4. For the way most films are captured/produced, they work just fine. And if you really need long takes, you can always add an external recorder which you would probably want to do any way for long takes.

The R5c trades IBIS for no thermal limits. They almost certainly had to make that trade off. You've got to get the heat from the sensor to a surface the fan can move air against, and that's a bit difficult when the sensor only has physical contact at four corners. This isn't "cripple hammer", this isn't Canon making a mistake (like firmware 1.0b1) or trying to make your life difficult. It's thermodynamics. And no, I don't want to hear about the A7s III. 12mp readout != 45mp readout. Same thing for a "locked sensor" mode. Even if Canon had that tech ready, it's not as good at transferring heat as you might imagine. You can't apply thermal paste every time the sensor IBIS is locked, nor clean it up when unlocked. And that means you still wouldn't have IBIS in some of the video modes.

The people who actually "need" what this camera can deliver don't care about IBIS. They're using gimbals or any number of stabilizing rigs. This is a camera for professional 8k cinema production. It is not a vlogging camera. It's not even really a hybrid camera. Canon has three of those already.

If you're still shooting a 5D mark III because it meets your needs, fine. It's still a fantastic stills camera. If you're passing up the R5 because you think you need unlimited 8k, and IBIS, and weather sealing...then you're kidding yourself and missing out as a result. If this camera not having IBIS or having stills compromises (i.e. dual-boot) upsets you, then you were never the target market for this camera. You should be looking at the R3, R5, or R6, with or without an external recorder depending on your actual video needs.


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## DBounce (Jan 19, 2022)

StandardLumen said:


> It's true that not just any computer is well-suited for handling 8K, but you only need to spend $3-4k for a computer that's up to the task. 8K cinema cameras usually run $20k+. Off the top of my head, the least expensive option other than the R5/R5C is the Sony A1 at $6500.


Really? Is that the “only” other hybrid you can think of that can shoot 8K for cheap?


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## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

vladk said:


> I am blown away.
> Huge video advancements with single downgrade compared to R5, and with minor price increase.
> No IBIS is probably because the sensor is connected to heatsink which makes its fast flexing impossible.
> I need to see how loud the fan is, and how juice hungry it is.
> ...


No IBIS because it's not a priority for professional cinematographers that are CPS members or that provide feedback to Canon.


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## vladk (Jan 19, 2022)

Those who complain about lack of IBIS - contrary to, say, SONY, almost all Canon RF L lenses have IS.
28-70, 50 1.2, 85 1.2 are the only exceptions. But when you shoot video with so shallow DoF, you use tripod/gimbal/stabilizer anyway.


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## DBounce (Jan 19, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> You need unlimited 8k long take recording and IBIS? Really? 4k recording with IBIS isn't enough? Short run 8k recording with IBIS isn't enough? What are you filming that you absolutely need unlimited 8k long takes...but also IBIS...so neither the R5 nor the R5c meet your needs? And you need this so bad...you're still using a 5D mark III with 1080p? You need unlimited 8k with IBIS for your films but you've been getting by, for years, on 1080p with no IBIS?
> 
> When the R5/R6 first hit I was one of the people who was very upset over the thermal limits because they made the bodies practically unusable for filming of any kind. Turns out that was bad firmware and Canon fixed it rather quickly. They still have thermal limits, but they aren't that much worse than something like a Fuji X-T4. For the way most films are captured/produced, they work just fine. And if you really need long takes, you can always add an external recorder which you would probably want to do any way for long takes.
> 
> ...


How does Panasonic do it? Are they just that much smarter than the folks at Canon? Or is this the cripple hammer?


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## reef58 (Jan 19, 2022)

DBounce said:


> How does Panasonic do it? Are they just that much smarter than the folks at Canon? Or is this the cripple hammer?


I guess I will say it again. None of the Canon cinema cameras have IBIS. They could put IBIS in there but they don't. There is a reason. It is not a cripple hammer. A $15,000 Canon Cinema camera does not have IBIS. They are not protecting anything. If you want IBIS there is the R3, R5 and R6. if you want a cinema camera you won't get IBIS. Maybe you don't want a cinema camera and just don't yet realize that.


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## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

Boo hoo hoo another cinema camera with no IBIS.


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## degos (Jan 19, 2022)

jam05 said:


> No IBIS because it's not a priority for professional cinematographers that are CPS members or that provide feedback to Canon.



Canon doesn't say this is for "professional cinematographers", they say it's for "imaging professionals".

If it was just for cinematography they'd have left out the bizarre reboot-to-stills-mode feature.

Saying that I've really no idea who it's for...


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## vladk (Jan 19, 2022)

There is one more R5C limitation - internal battery cannot provide juice to the lens mount in its most challenging video modes. I.e. no IS or AF.
I am curious is this resolved with add-on grip whenever we see one, or only with external power source.


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## dtaylor (Jan 19, 2022)

DBounce said:


> How does Panasonic do it? Are they just that much smarter than the folks at Canon? Or is this the cripple hammer?


I can't find a single Panasonic 8k camera at B&H, not even in the pro video section, much less a hybrid mirrorless that does unlimited 8k60p with IBIS and weather sealing. Is there a camera that they announced that isn't shipping yet?


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## slclick (Jan 19, 2022)

CanonGrunt said:


> Absolutely. I think for a lot of people they expected INIS to be in kt because it was in the R5, and also for many having IBIS in it was one of those points that put them over the top on it and they’d pre order same day. I’m not in that group, but I understand the sentiment.
> 
> i have a c70, R6, 5DsR, 7D, & a c500 currently. I use them all in different scenarios. There are definitely times I wish the 5DsR had IBIS. So many times. I’m absolutely keeping the c70. For me the choice was this, or save for the R1. I’m definitely leaning towards the R1, will probably sell the rest soon, and pick up a second c70 in the meantime. But everyone has their hopes, and everyone has the specific specs that take a product over the top for them.
> 
> If i were starting out and did both photo and video, it would be this hands down. An amazing upgrade for a lot of newer / newish shooters. one body, amazing specs overall, get to save some money( if you’re in this price range anyway) to put into other gear for it.


Just how would those needing IBIS even survive in the pre stabilized camera world? I know, I know, you can't miss something if it doesn't exist but at least in Stills Land, we were more than fine...we had technique. Maybe it's too much caffeine with some


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## slclick (Jan 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> For all those status conscious people out there, the shutter release is red. That matches the red rings in your lenses and the red accent in the digital crown of your Apple Watch.


One day they'll all be retired and get that little red dot as well.


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## Sampetra (Jan 19, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Boo hoo hoo another cinema camera with no IBIS.



Oh but look, here's how Canon advertises it on their own website:




They say themselves, it's a hybrid camera. If it's a hybrid and they hamstring photography, it's _not a hybrid. _It's almost as if Canon continues to misrepresent the R5/R5c as hybrids when that's not the reality.


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## unfocused (Jan 19, 2022)

reef58 said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about? I was merely pointing out Canon Cinema cameras don't have IBIS in response to another poster who insisted this camera should have IBIS to be consistent. You seem to be off on a wild tangent about who knows what.


Sounds like another example of someone shooting first and aiming later. Happens a lot around here.


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## cayenne (Jan 19, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> No IBIS. That's a good thing according to most of what the video guys post, but the one thing that will make a stills guy really have to think hard deciding between R5 and R5C.
> 
> And the price was on the low end of the predictions! For like the first time ever! Seems like a real beast of a body at that price.
> 
> Brian


Yup...that was me on the IBIS thing.

Until that blurb, I was thinking "ok, aside from a bit extra bulk and maybe a bit of weight gain...why would I take a R5 over a R5C?

Why not keep IBIS functionality in the camera I wonder...I mean, IBIS can be turned off you know?

cayenne


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## cayenne (Jan 19, 2022)

jam05 said:


> "Proper stills" Tell that to many professional photographers that shoot medium, large format, and film. Cameras are niche devices. All of them. As if saying a "proper guitar" or proper paint brush.


Really?

My medium format GFX100 has IBIS....hell, it would be a bit of a pain to shoot that beast without it if hand held in many situations.

Its a valid gripe, in this day in age. IMHO.


C


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> Wow - thats all I can say at this point.
> I was so looking forward to this camera, and everything in the video was going great - until, of course, he started saying "the still imaging features and operation of the EOS R5C are *nearly *identical".. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop after that. I had long predicted that IBIS would likely not make it in this camera, due to Canon's past practices of subtracting features in order to differentiate their product line. And of course, its missing. And Ill say it now - without IBIS, this camera is *junk*.
> 
> For me, this is really depressing. I'm still using my 5D Mark III from 10 years ago - not because I can't afford to buy another camera - but because I haven't found a camera that Canon has yet made that checks off all the boxes I need. All I've been waiting for since the beginning is a proper hybrid - a photo-video shooting product. Without IBIS, this product simply can't compete in the photography realm.
> ...



So let me get this straight - you've been shooting a body w/o IBIS for a decade, but the lack of IBIS in this body is a dealbreaker? And the R5 isn't an option for you because...?


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## BakaBokeh (Jan 19, 2022)

Okay so after letting the information process, quick thoughts:

Yes it was gut punch to hear no IBIS and tiny HDMI. But those are probably due to expectations. You expected the IBIS because the R5 had it. You expected the full size HDMI because that's what Craig said it was rumored to have. But after the collective "awwwww" I don't think it's that bad, which I'll get to.
Unlimited 8K60. Just wow. Don't let the "crippling" distract you from what a technological feat that is.
Plus all those other shooting modes and the video menu features.
I went on a rollercoaster of reactions to the photo/video switch. Happy to see the old video and photo toggle switch. Had a holdup moment when it said it takes 8 seconds to boot up to either mode. Then had an "oh I see" moment when I found out the menu systems are different for both modes. Photo mode is more like traditional R5. Video mode is more like C70. Plus I feel like firmware will cut down this boot up time down in the future.
Engineer in me sees all the design decisions that had to be made and I feel like they came to an acceptable compromise. It was like they said here's 3 things: 1) Unlimited Video in all modes 2) Full Size HDMI port and IBIS and 3) Low Cost. Now Choose Two. I know I'm distilling it down quite a bit, but assume that's the discussion when in the room with all the decision makers... and I'm glad they did it that way.
I'm less angry about the Micro HDMI now than I was about it when the R5 released. Why? Because I already have the cables when I bought them for the R5. And I haven't broken anything yet. So this is a "who cares" for me.
IBIS. I have to wait and see before I can render final judgement on this. But I think I will be fine with it's removal. I love the IBIS on the R5. It really is special when shooting video and magical when shooting stills especially in lowlight. However it isn't perfect either, and after thinking about it, the R5C actually hits a sweet spot that the R5 doesn't. What you can't do on the R5 is use the Optical Image Stabilization without IBIS. Why would you want to do that? Because when you do, it introduces the wobbles on ultra-wide angle lenses for most users. Many have asked for the option, but for whatever reason Canon can't do it. Maybe it's segmentation and that would suck, but if the R5C's ability to just use OIS is used, wobbles go away (allegedly/hopefully). That was a death knell on the R5 for several videographers. The other thing is the body still has EIS, which is allegedly improved enough where it was acceptable to eliminate IBIS.
Unlike what several are conjecturing here, I do not agree that heat was the reason IBIS was removed. Some modifications have demonstrated that the R5 can run "unlimited" with some kind of heat management. I think it just goes back to design decision. I think it's more likely that Canon was just asking, how can we get this Camera at this price point? I think that's where IBIS got the axe. Because I do think they could have put IBIS in, and they could have provided a mechanism to lock the IBIS, but that is adding a lot more cost. I feel like the marketing guys overwhelmingly supported the $4499 price point. I do think more people will buy this than if it was $1000 or even $500 more.
I know battery life is going to suck, but at least you aren't dead in the water. A grip will help, and PD battery bank will work. Plus you can plug into an outlet if you have that option. Would it have been nice to use the R3/1D battery or maybe a BP like the c70? Yes but then the compact size is no more. You can add battery life to an R5C, you can't remove bulk from a C70 or ungrip a R3/1D.
Based on the "compromises" I have found I love this Camera paired with an R5. In a perfect world they'd be the same camera. But essentially, the R5 is an amazing photo camera (because of IBIS) that can shoot great video for a bit. The R5C is kind of the flip of that. I guess it's fine for my workflow, because that's how I operate anyway. I never go out and say, I'm gonna do 50/50 video and photo. I actually set out with the intent of doing one or the other, and like to have the option to switch it up when needed. If I need to do both in an instant, like doing an event, I'd keep both bodies hanging off me anyway. Not for everybody, but I'm really liking the R5C after first impressions. I do want to see more reviews, and experience using it myself, but feel like I am going to love this camera.


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> You need unlimited 8k long take recording and IBIS? Really? 4k recording with IBIS isn't enough? Short run 8k recording with IBIS isn't enough? What are you filming that you absolutely need unlimited 8k long takes...but also IBIS...so neither the R5 nor the R5c meet your needs? And you need this so bad...you're still using a 5D mark III with 1080p? You need unlimited 8k with IBIS for your films but you've been getting by, for years, on 1080p with no IBIS?
> 
> When the R5/R6 first hit I was one of the people who was very upset over the thermal limits because they made the bodies practically unusable for filming of any kind. Turns out that was bad firmware and Canon fixed it rather quickly. They still have thermal limits, but they aren't that much worse than something like a Fuji X-T4. For the way most films are captured/produced, they work just fine. And if you really need long takes, you can always add an external recorder which you would probably want to do any way for long takes.
> 
> ...


I don't need 8K video directly, but I do want the 4K HQ that comes from the 8K sensor. How long can you shoot 4K HQ for? At the R5's launch if I recall it was pretty limited number of minutes you got before the camera overheated. Has this improved?

I also heard of reports where you take a bunch of photos and then switch to video only to find that the R5 won't take any video due to overheating from the photos you've taken. Is this still an issue post firmware? Has this improved?

I'm genuinely asking b/c I have found very little info on these firmware updates and what they're actually doing.. so if I can record up to 25-30min 4k HQ without thermal limits being reached, and if I can freely take a bunch of photos and then switch to video and immediately record 25-30 min 4k HQ without reaching thermal limits, then I'll buy an R5 today!

And just to let you know - I'm willing to trade off on certain things - I'm OK with the micro HDMI for instance, or the 7-8s to switch over from video to photo and vice-versa. But IBIS is something folks need for photos - you know - that other use case that we want to use this camera for. Surely you're not suggesting photographers use a gimbal for photo taking, right?


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## unfocused (Jan 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Same is true for the complaints about the R3, etc.


You and I have been on this forum for as long as anybody and it’s been the same for every Canon camera ever released. Every one is junk because it’s missing some magic spec. When Canon adds that spec there is always a new one that has to be included or the camera is “crippled.”


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## Sampetra (Jan 19, 2022)

slclick said:


> Just how would those needing IBIS even survive in the pre stabilized camera world? I know, I know, you can't miss something if it doesn't exist but at least in Stills Land, we were more than fine...we had technique. Maybe it's too much caffeine with some



Right on, we also used to ride horses instead of cars, use carrier pigeons instead of phones, and drink whiskey instead of anesthesia! Who cares if Canon removes features from the R5c that everyone expected it to have and were present in the R5? If anything Canon should remove _more!

Geeze, who even needs a camera? Back then we didn't need a machine to capture a moment in time, we had paint... we had technique._


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## reef58 (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> I don't need 8K video directly, but I do want the 4K HQ that comes from the 8K sensor. How long can you shoot 4K HQ for? At the R5's launch if I recall it was pretty limited number of minutes you got before the camera overheated. Has this improved?
> 
> I also heard of reports where you take a bunch of photos and then switch to video only to find that the R5 won't take any video due to overheating from the photos you've taken. Is this still an issue post firmware? Has this improved?
> 
> ...


Overheating can be an issue. Many folks have workarounds. The time limits are improved form the firmware updates. If you want to shoot 15 minutes or so of 8k or HQ4k without an external recorder you may run into some issues. Overall it is a great camera.


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## reef58 (Jan 19, 2022)

Sampetra said:


> Right on, we also used to ride horses instead of cars, use carrier pigeons instead of phones, and drink whiskey instead of anesthesia! Who cares if Canon removes features from the R5c that everyone expected it to have and were present in the R5? If anything Canon should remove _more!
> 
> Geeze, who even needs a camera? Back then we didn't need a machine to capture a moment in time, we had paint... we had technique._


It appears besides the Canon Cinema cameras not having IBIS, but rather digital stabilization, neither does the Red Raptor $25,000, or the Arri Alexa Mini $50,000. These cripple hammers are running amuck.


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> So let me get this straight - you've been shooting a body w/o IBIS for a decade, but the lack of IBIS in this body is a dealbreaker? And the R5 isn't an option for you because...?


So let's put it a bit differently then.
Say you've driven an older car without a CD player/MP3/SiriusXM/Navigation/etc for years
Now you want to upgrade. You obviously want to upgrade to the latest standards of car technology, right? So why would you buy a new car without all that built in infotainment, even though its now in most cars?
Same applies to IBIS. Its in almost every pro-body ILC. So why omit it here?

Let me ALSO put it another way: Canon did such a good job with IBIS on the R5 that it became the killer app. Now, why would you take the killer app away?

Finally and lastly, if this is a true hybrid, then it must meet photo and video needs. Again, understanding how good Canon's IBIS is, and recognizing that EVERY OTHER Canon R camera will surely get IBIS in the future, how is this particular camera a good solution for photographers who also want good video capabilities? Its not. Its not a hybrid camera.


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

reef58 said:


> It appears besides the Canon Cinema cameras not having IBIS, but rather digital stabilization, neither does the Red Raptor $25,000, or the Arri Alexa Mini $50,000. These cripple hammers are running amuck.


But you gotta remember we are looking at a Hybrid camera that is supposed to do both photos and video.
I agree with what you're saying for pure video cams, but this is supposed to be doing BOTH. So lack of IBIS in other Cinema cameras - which just do video - is kinda irrelevant?


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## slclick (Jan 19, 2022)

Sampetra said:


> Right on, we also used to ride horses instead of cars, use carrier pigeons instead of phones, and drink whiskey instead of anesthesia! Who cares if Canon removes features from the R5c that everyone expected it to have and were present in the R5? If anything Canon should remove _more!
> 
> Geeze, who even needs a camera? Back then we didn't need a machine to capture a moment in time, we had paint... we had technique._


As I expected, you missed a bit relevance between the words which incensed you. Typical here though.


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

reef58 said:


> Overheating can be an issue. Many folks have workarounds. The time limits are improved form the firmware updates. If you want to shoot 15 minutes or so of 8k or HQ4k without an external recorder you may run into some issues. Overall it is a great camera.


And this is why I didn't buy an R5.
Yes I know there are workarounds, like removing the battery or pulling all sorts of weird tricks.
But why do I need to do this on a pro body that will cost me at least $10K Canadian when I factor in the body, lens, batteries, battery grip and memory cards?
If I have to spend that amount of coin, I don't want to be dealing with any sort of workarounds to do what I need to do.


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> I don't need 8K video directly, but I do want the 4K HQ that comes from the 8K sensor. How long can you shoot 4K HQ for? At the R5's launch if I recall it was pretty limited number of minutes you got before the camera overheated. Has this improved?
> 
> I also heard of reports where you take a bunch of photos and then switch to video only to find that the R5 won't take any video due to overheating from the photos you've taken. Is this still an issue post firmware? Has this improved?
> 
> ...


People here don't understand what hybrid shooting means. Also I know a lot of people that earn good money with filming with sony cameras and they really use the ibis in their video work flow. Not all situations allow you to use gimbals and in that cases ibis can help in reducing time in editing avoiding software stabilisation, also ibis allows using stabilisation without cropping into an image. Thing is that filmmaking has evolved with these small cameras and some principles are not applicable to modern filmmaking. There are so many video and content creators that work as a one man band and relay on the new technologies.

I will get the R5c in about 15 days for a test and decide, between it or the R3 and R5c since R5 and R6 are missing some video features to be a real hybrid systems. 
When I saw its only 500 euros more for the R3 I think R3 is a winner.


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## cayenne (Jan 19, 2022)

SHAMwow said:


> Almost none of you WERE going to buy this camera. Almost none of you ARE going to buy this camera. Everyone simmer down here. With Canon delivering cameras like the R6, R5, R3, when they produce a product that isn't for me I couldn't care less now because they've addressed the holes in their lineup core where they were lacking. Plus, where did all the "if they added $500 for a model with a fan, I'd definitely buy that" people at? Oh wait, people just say stuff.


Actually...if this thing had IBIS.
I'd pull the trigger right now.

I'm on the sidelines waiting....thinking R5, but this one almost checked the boxes I was waiting for.

At this point, I'll decide if to wait a bit more, maybe see what the R1 has in store....or between these two.

Sure, I "can" live without IBIS...but in this day in age, we shouldn't have to.

IBIS is pretty much an expectation with cameras in this price range. It really isn't a "new shiny" so much as an expected commodity today in a higher end camera.

If they'd put IBIS in that you could lock when you didn't need it....would have been a perfect camera for myself and I'm guessing a lot of others.

C


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> I don't need 8K video directly, but I do want the 4K HQ that comes from the 8K sensor. How long can you shoot 4K HQ for? At the R5's launch if I recall it was pretty limited number of minutes you got before the camera overheated. Has this improved?
> 
> I also heard of reports where you take a bunch of photos and then switch to video only to find that the R5 won't take any video due to overheating from the photos you've taken. Is this still an issue post firmware? Has this improved?
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, you don't have ANY equipment that shoots 4k now, and you're worried about 8k oversampled 4k? All you have to do is shoot an R5 with a Ninja V+, problem solved. Many have proven you can shoot the non-HQ 4k - which is not time-limited - and get 99.9% the same result with some sharpening in post. 

"I also heard of reports where you take a bunch of photos and then switch to video only to find that the R5 won't take any video due to overheating from the photos you've taken. Is this still an issue post firmware? Has this improved?"

This is FALSE. The ONLY heat-limited modes are 120p ones, 4k HQ, 4k 60p, and 8k. The camera will never, ever stop you from shooting standard def 4k 30p/24p or 1080p. And as previously stated, you will almost certainly not see a visible difference with a processed file, which you will be doing anyway if you're shooting in CLog3/CLog.


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

unfocused said:


> You and I have been on this forum for as long as anybody and it’s been the same for every Canon camera ever released. Every one is junk because it’s missing some magic spec. When Canon adds that spec there is always a new one that has to be included or the camera is “crippled.”


I believe Canon has released three bodies over 12 years that meet the definition of "perfection":
1. Canon 5D Mark II (2008)
2. Canon 1DC (2012)
3. Canon 1DX Mark III (2021)

I believe the "crippling" is mostly due to Canon's continued efforts to protect their Cinema EOS line at all costs. This release is no different in a crowded field with the C70 and original R5 - its safe to assume that a perfect R5C may have eliminated any need to buy an R5 at all.

I do have hope for the R5 Mark II - perhaps it will be the spiritual successor to the 5D Mark II? Maybe?


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 19, 2022)

Sampetra said:


> Right on, we also used to ride horses instead of cars, use carrier pigeons instead of phones, and drink whiskey instead of anesthesia! Who cares if Canon removes features from the R5c that everyone expected it to have and were present in the R5? If anything Canon should remove _more!
> 
> Geeze, who even needs a camera? Back then we didn't need a machine to capture a moment in time, we had paint... we had technique._


IBIS isn't a revolutionary change as from horses to cars. It's more like adding cruise control to a car which already has an automatic transmission. It gets you a stop or 2, which is less effective than any lens w/IS, or you can get with little perceptible quality loss by increasing the ISO 1 or 2 stops in 99% of circumstances, or you can use a wider aperture to maintain a faster frame speed - something you may need to do anyway, as IBIS only stops camera shake, not a subject's motion!


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## entoman (Jan 19, 2022)

unfocused said:


> I simply think there is a world of difference between "nothing to be sniffed at" and "without IBIS, this camera is junk."


I completely agree. To call the R5C "junk" is clearly ridiculous - I'm not a video shooter, but it's abundantly clear that the R5C is the most affordable model for professional 8K and is highly specified for video usage.

But for stills shooters, or typical "hybrid" shooters, one of the fundamental advantages of MILCs is IBIS. Omitting it can only be for product segmentation and cost reducing purposes. The R5 is far more suited to purpose for stills shooters. Personally, even if the R5 and R5C were priced identically, as a stills shooter, I simply wouldn't consider the R5C.


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> IBIS isn't a revolutionary change as from horses to cars. It's more like adding cruise control to a car which already has an automatic transmission. It gets you a stop or 2, which is less effective than any lens w/IS, or you can get with little perceptible quality loss by increasing the ISO 1 or 2 stops in 99% of circumstances, or you can use a wider aperture to maintain a faster frame speed - something you may need to do anyway, as IBIS only stops camera shake, not a subject's motion!


I think IBIS on the R5 is a game changer, and Canon did such a good job with it that its omission from the R5C is simply absurd.
When you can take an older lens, like the original EF 50 f1.0 (which was known to be difficult to use) and achieve incredibly sharp results due to IBIS, the feature really speaks for itself.


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## cayenne (Jan 19, 2022)

vladk said:


> Those who complain about lack of IBIS - contrary to, say, SONY, almost all Canon RF L lenses have IS.
> 28-70, 50 1.2, 85 1.2 are the only exceptions. But when you shoot video with so shallow DoF, you use tripod/gimbal/stabilizer anyway.


YEs..but IBIS plus Lens IS combined is even better.

And remember, this R5C is supposed to be for both Video AND Stills.

You could lock off the IBIS if you wanted for video but switch it on for stills.....and these days, IBIS is pretty much considered a commodity at this price range for stills.


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## Sampetra (Jan 19, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> IBIS isn't a revolutionary change as from horses to cars. It's more like adding cruise control to a car which already has an automatic transmission. It gets you a stop or 2, which is less effective than any lens w/IS, or you can get with little perceptible quality loss by increasing the ISO 1 or 2 stops in 99% of circumstances, or you can use a wider aperture to maintain a faster frame speed - something you may need to do anyway, as IBIS only stops camera shake, not a subject's motion!



I don't mean to suggest that IBIS is as big a change as horses to cars, but if that's the battle you want to fight then you do you. The point here is that there is no reason to move backward and there's no motive outside of profits to remove IBIS.


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## cayenne (Jan 19, 2022)

reef58 said:


> It appears besides the Canon Cinema cameras not having IBIS, but rather digital stabilization, neither does the Red Raptor $25,000, or the Arri Alexa Mini $50,000. These cripple hammers are running amuck.


Not a fair comparison...the Reds and Alexa's are one trick pony cinema cameras.

This R5C is supposed to be a hybrid....you should have IBIS on it for the still side of the camera....just lock it off for video if you don't want it on video.
That would have made it a hybrid best of both worlds.

That's all people are saying.

In this day in age, for stills at this price...IBIS is an expected given.


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## BakaBokeh (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> I don't need 8K video directly, but I do want the 4K HQ that comes from the 8K sensor. How long can you shoot 4K HQ for? At the R5's launch if I recall it was pretty limited number of minutes you got before the camera overheated. Has this improved?


You can shoot for 25 minutes 4KHQ, and that number goes down with subsequent cool downs. I have found that the 4KHQ is less prone to (takes longer) overheating than 8K and 4K120. Firmware updates have improved recording times but not by anything significant.


Respinder said:


> I also heard of reports where you take a bunch of photos and then switch to video only to find that the R5 won't take any video due to overheating from the photos you've taken. Is this still an issue post firmware? Has this improved?


Yes, as any usage contributes to the heat budget needed for the higher bitrate recording modes. The firmware updates have significantly improved recovery times from early iterations. The best thing is you can actually have control over recovery times which wasn't an early option. Put the body on a fan, in front of an AC, in the refrigerator if you so dare and you get recording times back.


Respinder said:


> I'm genuinely asking b/c I have found very little info on these firmware updates and what they're actually doing.. so if I can record up to 25-30min 4k HQ without thermal limits being reached, and if I can freely take a bunch of photos and then switch to video and immediately record 25-30 min 4k HQ without reaching thermal limits, then I'll buy an R5 today!


No, for this specific use case I would say the R5 is not for you. If you can give up on HQ, or had a more sporadic video shooting style (short clips of 4KHQ here and there), then the R5 is wonderful. Shooting photos all day, and then shifting to video will give you a reduced video shooting budget.



Respinder said:


> And just to let you know - I'm willing to trade off on certain things - I'm OK with the micro HDMI for instance, or the 7-8s to switch over from video to photo and vice-versa. But IBIS is something folks need for photos - you know - that other use case that we want to use this camera for. Surely you're not suggesting photographers use a gimbal for photo taking, right?


I agree on the photo side, the losing of the IBIS is a bummer. On another post I said, it is one of the biggest game changers for the R5 as a "photography" camera. On video, it's nice to have, but not critical and not even preferred in some instances, which is why, in conjunction with the price point, I can understand why it was omitted.


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## 2Cents (Jan 19, 2022)

Alan B said:


>


Preordered.


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## dtaylor (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> I don't need 8K video directly, but I do want the 4K HQ that comes from the 8K sensor. How long can you shoot 4K HQ for? At the R5's launch if I recall it was pretty limited number of minutes you got before the camera overheated. Has this improved?







If you need longer takes and you need IBIS, add an Atomos Ninja V.



Respinder said:


> But IBIS is something folks need for photos - you know - that other use case that we want to use this camera for. Surely you're not suggesting photographers use a gimbal for photo taking, right?


How about using the correct shutter speed, and/or an IS lens? Which is what we were doing in Canon-land all the way up until July, 2020. (And some of us still are.)

Again I'll point out that Canon likely had no choice. "Locked IBIS" is not going to have the same heat transfer. The R5 sensor may be fantastic in IQ and capability but it runs hot as evidenced by photo mode impacting available video time. Even if someone else can do it that doesn't mean Canon's sensor runs as cool as theirs.


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> Just to be clear, you don't have ANY equipment that shoots 4k now, and you're worried about 8k oversampled 4k? All you have to do is shoot an R5 with a Ninja V+, problem solved. Many have proven you can shoot the non-HQ 4k - which is not time-limited - and get 99.9% the same result with some sharpening in post.
> 
> "I also heard of reports where you take a bunch of photos and then switch to video only to find that the R5 won't take any video due to overheating from the photos you've taken. Is this still an issue post firmware? Has this improved?"
> 
> This is FALSE. The ONLY heat-limited modes are 120p ones, 4k HQ, 4k 60p, and 8k. The camera will never, ever stop you from shooting standard def 4k 30p/24p or 1080p. And as previously stated, you will almost certainly not see a visible difference with a processed file, which you will be doing anyway if you're shooting in CLog3/CLog.


You can ad also 1080p 100/120p to this list. At least my R5 does overheat and does not wanna work in this mode when overheated.


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## BakaBokeh (Jan 19, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> Just to be clear, you don't have ANY equipment that shoots 4k now, and you're worried about 8k oversampled 4k? All you have to do is shoot an R5 with a Ninja V+, problem solved. Many have proven you can shoot the non-HQ 4k - which is not time-limited - and get 99.9% the same result with some sharpening in post.
> 
> "I also heard of reports where you take a bunch of photos and then switch to video only to find that the R5 won't take any video due to overheating from the photos you've taken. Is this still an issue post firmware? Has this improved?"
> 
> This is FALSE. The ONLY heat-limited modes are 120p ones, 4k HQ, 4k 60p, and 8k. The camera will never, ever stop you from shooting standard def 4k 30p/24p or 1080p. And as previously stated, you will almost certainly not see a visible difference with a processed file, which you will be doing anyway if you're shooting in CLog3/CLog.


I think you misunderstood the question like I initially did. He's asking if the video shooting (in 4KHQ based on the context) is hindered after shooting photos. The answer to that is, "Yes" it is. You may not be able to shoot 4KHQ after taking a bunch of pictures. But I agree that there's a bunch of misinformation that the camera overheats taking photos, or the camera is unusable. People see the overheating signal when taking photos and they panic. Nothing to worry about if you don't plan to use the higher bitrate recording modes. The overheating signal happens when taking photos only because of whatever the default recording mode is in C2 happens to be a 4K60/HQ and higher recording mode. Stick to 4K regular and below and the camera is only limited by the 29 minute limit and battery life.

I do think it's funny how people think they have to have 4K oversampled like it's always been a non-starter.


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## dtaylor (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> I believe Canon has released three bodies over 12 years that meet the definition of "perfection":
> 1. Canon 5D Mark II (2008)
> 2. Canon 1DC (2012)
> 3. Canon 1DX Mark III (2021)
> ...


Canon removed IBIS to cripple the R5c to protect their cine cameras which have...no IBIS? 

_Canon is clearly ill-fated!_

Also: if the R5c had IBIS it still wouldn't be weather sealed with a fan. Price/sealing would still sell the R5.


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## dtaylor (Jan 19, 2022)

BakaBokeh said:


> I do think it's funny how people think they have to have 4K oversampled like it's always been a non-starter.


If I can't have 8k60p RAW with IBIS, no fan, full weather sealing, and an internal battery that runs for 8 hours then I'm DONE with Canon. I'll just switch to...um...who can do that again?


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## bgoyette (Jan 19, 2022)

Sampetra said:


> I don't mean to suggest that IBIS is as big a change as horses to cars, but if that's the battle you want to fight then you do you. The point here is that there is no reason to move backward and there's no motive outside of profits to remove IBIS.


Absolutely wrong I think. It's pretty obvious there was a reason to remove IBIS. That being heat. Given that they had to re-engineer this camera specifically around heat dissipation, there's a very obvious issue with IBIS, as it limits the size and functionality of any heat sink attached to the sensor. A bigger reason, though is that big red C on the body. That means it's a "CinemaEos" product and....welll...nothing in that line has IBIS...probably for reason # 1. Frankly, Ibis is always problematic in video...it never works right, as it is really designed to stabilize the sensor for stills. We all have to step back and realize this camera is always going to be a compromise because it is a hybrid. The lead feature is 8k, unlimited record times, and Cinema Raw Light. That's the camera they are selling you. I you want that...then you live without IBIS.


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## dtaylor (Jan 19, 2022)

cayenne said:


> Not a fair comparison...the Reds and Alexa's are one trick pony cinema cameras.
> 
> This R5C is supposed to be a hybrid....you should have IBIS on it for the still side of the camera....just lock it off for video if you don't want it on video.
> That would have made it a hybrid best of both worlds.
> ...


And those people are clueless regarding the thermal issues involved.


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## unfocused (Jan 19, 2022)

entoman said:


> I completely agree. To call the R5C "junk" is clearly ridiculous...
> 
> ...one of the fundamental advantages of MILCs is IBIS. Omitting it can only be for product segmentation and cost reducing purposes...


Well, we really don't know that do we? Others have posted plausible explanations as to why it might have been a design issue.


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## unfocused (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> ...its safe to assume that a perfect R5C may have eliminated any need to buy an R5 at all...


Because I really want to carry around a wildlife-centric camera like the R5 with the added weight and bulk of the R5 Cinema.


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## Refraction (Jan 19, 2022)

It takes 8 seconds to go from photo to video or vice versa using the toggle switch with no option to go straight from one to the other...not a hybrid camera for weddings anyway.


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## Refraction (Jan 19, 2022)

WaitingForGuac said:


> As someone evaluating the R5 for stills + a _little_ bit of video (80% stills/20% video or so), I decided to wait on the R5 C just to see if the extra video features would sweeten the pot. Three points convinced me that for my use case, the R5 will be ideal:
> 
> 
> Lack of IBIS
> ...


Also you will need to wait 8 seconds when going from photo to video or vice versa.


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## NorskHest (Jan 19, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> Canon removed IBIS to cripple the R5c to protect their cine cameras which have...no IBIS?
> 
> _Canon is clearly ill-fated!_
> 
> Also: if the R5c had IBIS it still wouldn't be weather sealed with a fan. Price/sealing would still sell the R5.


It is actually weather sealed


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## privatebydesign (Jan 19, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> It is actually weather sealed


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## Cochese (Jan 19, 2022)

This comments section reads like people expecting the perfect camera in every situation. What canon gave us, as with the the previous versions of this camera, was a cinema camera that can do stills. The only difference is the base body is one that formerly had IBIS.
This isn't a major decision here. If you're a video person, get the R5C, if you're a stills person, get the R5. If you're a Hybrid person that's primarily stills, get an R5. If you're primarily video, get the R5C.
Instead we get a lot of people who'd probably have never purchased it going "well if it had this, if it had that." Same story, different camera.
Personally, I'll never buy this camera. I will however, get an R5 in the coming year.

Also, if you're a wedding photog claiming you need to shoot video in 8k60, you deserve a good face slap.


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> I think IBIS on the R5 is a game changer, and Canon did such a good job with it that its omission from the R5C is simply absurd.
> When you can take an older lens, like the original EF 50 f1.0 (which was known to be difficult to use) and achieve incredibly sharp results due to IBIS, the feature really speaks for itself.


I'm sorry, but if you literally can't get sharp results with any mechanically sound lens without IBIS assistance, you're doing photography wrong.


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## Rocksthaman (Jan 19, 2022)

I’m going to go ahead and say it….Canon over values 8k.

There’s no telling the concessions they made to accommodate, but I would have loved this camera without the fan but with the monitoring and unlimited 10bit 1080 / 4kHQ. I’m sure there’s a few people using it but, it’s not practical, or honestly all that useful.


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 19, 2022)

Sampetra said:


> I don't mean to suggest that IBIS is as big a change as horses to cars, but if that's the battle you want to fight then you do you. The point here is that there is no reason to move backward and there's no motive outside of profits to remove IBIS.


Except that, as you've been told, time and time again, the audience Canon wishes to target with this body largely doesn't need IBIS, and may not want it at all, as it is one more mechanical element that can fail in demanding usage/environmental conditions. I'm not saying you shouldn't want IBIS or be disappointed that this body doesn't include it, but the hyperbole being expressed about it in this thread is absolutely ridiculous, and I firmly believe that if it was a matter of profit and customer preference, they would put it in the body and jack up MSRP accordingly.


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 19, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> You can ad also 1080p 100/120p to this list. At least my R5 does overheat and does not wanna work in this mode when overheated.


I said 120p right in my post.


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## Sampetra (Jan 19, 2022)

bgoyette said:


> Absolutely wrong I think. It's pretty obvious there was a reason to remove ibis. That being heat. Given that they had to re-engineer this camera specifically around heat dissipation, there's a very obvious issue with ibis, and it limits the size and functionality of any heat sink attached to the sensor. A bigger reason, though is that big red C on the body. That means it's a "CinemaEos" product and....welll...nothing in that line has IBIS...probably for reason # 1. Frankly, Ibis is always problematic in video...it never works right, as it is really designed to stabilize the sensor for stills. We all have to step back and realize this camera is always going to be a compromise because it is a hybrid. The lead feature is 8k, unlimited record times, and Cinema Raw Light. That's the camera they are selling you. I you want that...then you live without IBIS.



Let's see if Canon agrees with your assessment, currently on the front page of their website:




Looks to me like they're saying that the R5C is a hybrid camera "ready for anything". A hybrid camera with no IBIS isn't exactly ready for stills photography, especially at this price point.


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## Rocco9 (Jan 19, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> I would gladly pay 500$-700$ more for ibis or ND, full hdmi and a solution where you don't turn off camera when switching from mode to mode.


Absolutely. I'm very disappointed. Much higher cost, no ND and the IBIS... really ? You took away what made the R5 a phenomenal camera. I need a second body and I have been waiting for the R5-C and now I think I might get another R5. Shooting interviews in a standard quality 4k is plenty of resolution. Since I don't shoot weddings or events, I'll stick with that. But I was waiting for another exceptional camera. The C70 might be a better choice for a filmmaker.... I guess. Happy to hear your thoughts.


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 19, 2022)

Rocksthaman said:


> I’m going to go ahead and say it….Canon over values 8k.
> 
> There’s no telling the concessions they made to accommodate, but I would have loved this camera without the fan but with the monitoring and unlimited 10bit 1080 / 4kHQ. I’m sure there’s a few people using it but, it’s not practical, or honestly all that useful.


It seems like they should really have 8k and non-8k versions of stuff and let the market decide, and classify that as a premium/aspirational feature. Honestly I would love to replace 8k with 2k for when my output is 1080p so I could "oversample" but without having to go all the way up to 4k file sizes. Similarly, having 6k video for 4k output on the R3 is an awesome feature. I shudder to think what kind of computer specs are needed to crunch 8k 60p video....I have a VERY powerful laptop (desktop replacement level) and it struggles with 4k 30p ALL-I vids.


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## LukasS (Jan 19, 2022)

Refraction said:


> It takes 8 seconds to go from photo to video or vice versa using the toggle switch with no option to go straight from one to the other...not a hybrid camera for weddings anyway.


Actually it takes ~5 sec: 



 as shown here.


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> It seems like they should really have 8k and non-8k versions of stuff and let the market decide, and classify that as a premium/aspirational feature. Honestly I would love to replace 8k with 2k for when my output is 1080p so I could "oversample" but without having to go all the way up to 4k file sizes. Similarly, having 6k video for 4k output on the R3 is an awesome feature. I shudder to think what kind of computer specs are needed to crunch 8k 60p video....I have a VERY powerful laptop (desktop replacement level) and it struggles with 4k 30p ALL-I vids.


well the new MacBooks are handling those files pretty well even with the pro chip.


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## Rocco9 (Jan 19, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> well the new MacBooks are handling those files pretty well even with the pro chip.


Agreed. Very impressive indeed !


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## peters (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> BTW - I don't think the R5 ever needed a fan at all. The 1DC never needed a fan - all it had was a very well designed heat sink. Ultimately the R5 just needed a better designed heat sink as well.


Thats true but the comparison is a bit off. The 1DC doesnt have 8k, and no 4k oversampled from 8k. It was just 4k, not even 60fps. 
In normal 4k the R5 didnt overheat as well. But oversampled from 8k is a different beast. Also the camera is much smaller and much less space for a heatsink. So I tink for realy realiable 8k and 4k60 downsampled recording a fan was necessary. I dont think they added it for fun.
Also the camera is only like 30g heavier than the R5. So I guess its a bit bulkier but still very light. Its still much lighter than a 5D IV, and half of a 1d


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## peters (Jan 19, 2022)

Rocksthaman said:


> I’m going to go ahead and say it….Canon over values 8k.
> 
> There’s no telling the concessions they made to accommodate, but I would have loved this camera without the fan but with the monitoring and unlimited 10bit 1080 / 4kHQ. I’m sure there’s a few people using it but, it’s not practical, or honestly all that useful.


4kHQ is oversampled from 8k, so it needs pretty much the same power and generates similar heat. =)


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

Rocco9 said:


> Absolutely. I'm very disappointed. Much higher cost, no ND and the IBIS... really ? You took away what made the R5 a phenomenal camera. I need a second body and I have been waiting for the R5-C and now I think I might get another R5. Shooting interviews in a standard quality 4k is plenty of resolution. Since I don't shoot weddings or events, I'll stick with that. But I was waiting for another exceptional camera. The C70 might be a better choice for a filmmaker.... I guess. Happy to hear your thoughts.


well considering the r3 is around 600euros more at-least here in croatia, that is also an option.
C70 is 300 euros cheaper, which also makes it more interesting if you are into a filmmaking, considering the price of cards to utilise the full potential of the R5c and the batteries you end up around 700 euros more for the r5c...


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## peters (Jan 19, 2022)

LukasS said:


> Actually it takes ~5 sec:
> 
> 
> 
> as shown here.


I actualy like this clear and complete cut from photo mode. 5 seconds is indeed a bit long, but still ok for me. Maybe its faster, if sensor cleanup is disabled? 
The mixed menu for photo and video was getting a bit crowded in the R5. I handled it okay with custom menus, but a clear divider between both modes is somehow quite good in my opinion =)


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## peters (Jan 19, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> It seems like they should really have 8k and non-8k versions of stuff and let the market decide, and classify that as a premium/aspirational feature. Honestly I would love to replace 8k with 2k for when my output is 1080p so I could "oversample" but without having to go all the way up to 4k file sizes. Similarly, having 6k video for 4k output on the R3 is an awesome feature. I shudder to think what kind of computer specs are needed to crunch 8k 60p video....I have a VERY powerful laptop (desktop replacement level) and it struggles with 4k 30p ALL-I vids.


The reason why the pc struggles is likely because the CPU doenst directly support decoding of 10 bit 422 in h.265. another codec should work better. Experienced it myself. I pretty much hate the performance in premiere on my pc with R5 files. My macbook is much better, though I am not yet realy used to the OS, which slows me down a lot, after 25 years on a pc =D


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## entoman (Jan 19, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Well, we really don't know that do we? Others have posted plausible explanations as to why it might have been a design issue.


Yet Nikon and Sony have brought to market professional-level cameras capable of non time-limited 8K, and that have retained IBIS. If they can do so, why can't Canon?

The only conclusion I can reach is deliberate market-segmentation. They have decided to send out a clear message (with which I have no argument) that stills shooters and casual videographers should still go for the R5, and that the R5C is not in any way aimed at them.

Many stills shooters have complained here and elsewhere that there is too much emphasis on video features in modern cameras. Likewise serious videographers would much prefer that *more* emphasis was placed on video features.

Canon seem to have provided solutions for both camps - and they have kept the cost down by using a large percentage of common components.

It's a win-win for Canon and for Canon users.


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## BakaBokeh (Jan 19, 2022)

peters said:


> I actually like this clear and complete cut from photo mode. 5 seconds is indeed a bit long, but still ok for me. Maybe its faster, if sensor cleanup is disabled?
> The mixed menu for photo and video was getting a bit crowded in the R5. I handled it okay with custom menus, but a clear divider between both modes is somehow quite good in my opinion =)


Agreed. Acceptable tradeoff for me. A dedicated menu designed and optimized for video is a plus, instead of trying to make it fit into the standard menu system. In fact, I do get confused by the menu being used for both video and photo on all other Canon bodies, because it just hides and adds features depending on the mode. I Often find myself wondering where something went, and remember "oh I have to switch to photo/video to get said feature." Plus I think firmware updates will probably bring the boot up time down.


----------



## jam05 (Jan 19, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> I would gladly pay 500$-700$ more for ibis or ND, full hdmi and a solution where you don't turn off camera when switching from mode to mode.


Nope, not hardly. You're in dreamland. Take the price of the C70 add the price of the 45mp sensor, the IBIS, newer heat dissipation for 8k60 and you're at the price of the Sony A1 or better. And for whom? Most professional photographers have more than one tool. Many of us already have and shoot with high res cameras, medium format and larger, have cameras with IBIS. So do I need another camera that has to have IBIS? Not only no, but hell no. I am never going limit myself to only one camera. Never as a musician limited myself to one instrument.


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

jam05 said:


> Nope, not hardly. You're in dreamland. Take the price of the C70 add the price of the 45mp sensor, the IBIS, newer heat dissipation for 8k60 and you're at the price of the Sony A1 or better.


I disagree, considering the R3 is that much more expensive, with more new things developed from the scratch.


----------



## entoman (Jan 19, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> I'm sorry, but if you literally can't get sharp results with any mechanically sound lens without IBIS assistance, you're doing photography wrong.



I'm afraid that you are completely missing the point, i.e. that IBIS will enable users to use slower shutter speeds (for non-action subjects), thereby enabling the use of lower ISO and resultant improvements to image quality.

It is a matter of physics, that a non-stabilised lens will result in more camera-shake, and that IBIS and OIS (preferably both, working in unison) will increase keeper rates when using slower shutter speeds.

I use a 5DMkiv with stabilised and non-stabilised zooms and telephoto primes. I also use an R5 with IBIS, and I have found that with non-stabilised EF lenses, the IBIS alone provides at least 2 stops of stabilisation. When using stabilised EF lenses I get another 2 stops of stabilisation. With my RF 800mm F11 on the R5, I can produce very sharp hand-held images of static subjects at shutter speeds as low as 1/60th, thanks to a combination of OIS and IBIS.


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## BakaBokeh (Jan 19, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> I'm sorry, but if you literally can't get sharp results with any mechanically sound lens without IBIS assistance, you're doing photography wrong.


For me the R5's IBIS was a gamechanger because you had so much less camera shake while shooting handheld. Just reviewing photos during culling sessions, I've found so many more hits than misses than ever before. I was used to finding blurrier than originally thought photos going from camera display to monitor. Getting the R5 completely changed that experience. Also, the ability to capture some low light images handheld which would previously be unheard of on prior Canon bodies.


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## trianbampol (Jan 19, 2022)

cayenne said:


> Not a fair comparison...the Reds and Alexa's are one trick pony cinema cameras.
> 
> This R5C is supposed to be a hybrid....you should have IBIS on it for the still side of the camera....just lock it off for video if you don't want it on video.
> That would have made it a hybrid best of both worlds.
> ...


But the R5c is a hybrid, it fills in the gap of what the R5 is missing. And for this price I'll take unlimited 8k/60p internal over IBIS any day. 

I've been running two R5 bodies for a year and a half and am planning on replacing my second body with an R5c because this new version solves a lot of issues in my workflow.

- I don't have to rotate bodies when one overheats while shooting photo + video in 4kHQ 
- No longer have to worry about IBIS wobbles with a wide angle lens (In lens IS + digital IS with a light crop is way better than having to deal with wobbly corners)
- Can now run an ultralight handheld rig without an Atomos bc there are no more overheating issues.

When I book a gig that prioritizes photo, I'll bring my R5. When a client needs video on set I'll use the R5c.


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## goldenhusky (Jan 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> The R1 will likely be substantially more expensive, and while I suspect it will have QPAF or some other tech equivalent to cross-type AF points and be blazing fast, I don't think the specs will be hugely different from the Z9. So, waiting for the R1 does not really make sense.
> 
> For many years, brand choice was really about lens selection. In some ways, that hasn't changed. I really like my compact 70-200/2.8 and my 28-70/2, and those aren't available for Nikon or Sony, so the R3 makes a lot of sense, to me.
> 
> Just a general comment, I don't have a horse in the video race as I don't use my ILCs for that, except a few seconds of footage I once shot on my 1D X by accident while customizing the buttons.



You would be happy with anything Canon produces at any price point isn't it? Seriously though is there anything ever Canon produced has disappointed you?


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## IWLP (Jan 19, 2022)

So what are people actually seeking here?

You want unlimited 8K, IBIS, and immediate switching from photo to video mode? Canon gave you two out of three. Yes, there's more to it with the in-depth video menu system and features in the R5C (the likely reason for the less-than-immediate switching), but for the main objections in the nine post pages I read (!) these three keep coming up.

So if you have to choose two of three: Unlimited 8K, immediate photo/video switching and IBIS, who _must have_ all three, and who is willing to pay the full price (both cash outlay and ergonomics/size) to do this? Or what's the other game in town by which you are measuring this Canon "total fail"?

For shooters who need immediate photo/video mode switching, are your clients or is your workflow demanding 8K capture? For people who need IBIS for run-and gun, _and_ unlimited 8K shooting, by the time you have a production that necessitates the 8K, are you _really _running hand-held with a non-IS lens? And if you're shooting so many stills compared to video, what about the R5 is lacking?

I think posters here have created a straw man user who _may_ exist and who needs "all of the above," but more likely, they're mad about what the R5C _is not_.

I went through this a while back with the original R came out - I was perplexed as to all it's perceived "crippled" features and it bothered me.

But then I realized you should buy a camera for what it is "is" rather than what it "is not." And if we're honest with our needs, I cannot imagine many cases where an R5 (which I actually own and use in a "hybrid" way) or an R5C would not be a good solution that produces very usable results.


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## bgoyette (Jan 19, 2022)

Sampetra said:


> Let's see if Canon agrees with your assessment, currently on the front page of their website:
> 
> View attachment 202150
> 
> ...


Yeah. You're right. Photography without IBIS? Who would even try? Recipe for Disaster. Fools Errand. Lost Cause. Imagine me, shooting for clients for over 30 years. If they only knew about the lack of IBIS on every camera I've owned (except the current one, a GFX100) they certainly would have never hired me...I might have to start sending out refunds.


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## DiXi (Jan 19, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> Canon removed IBIS to cripple the R5c to protect their cine cameras which have...no IBIS?
> 
> _Canon is clearly ill-fated!_
> 
> Also: if the R5c had IBIS it still wouldn't be weather sealed with a fan. Price/sealing would still sell the R5.



How good is the weather sealing actually? 
Any info?


----------



## monton1999 (Jan 19, 2022)

peters said:


> The reason why the pc struggles is likely because the CPU doenst directly support decoding of 10 bit 422 in h.265. another codec should work better. Experienced it myself. I pretty much hate the performance in premiere on my pc with R5 files. My macbook is much better, though I am not yet realy used to the OS, which slows me down a lot, after 25 years on a pc =D



11th generation Intel CPUs (Tiger Lake) have much better support for h.265/HEVC

They actually support hardware _decoding_ up to 8K 12bit 444 and _encoding_ up to 8k 10bit 444

Intel HW media features

Supported Encoding and Decoding Output Formats and Max Resolution


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## Sampetra (Jan 19, 2022)

bgoyette said:


> Yeah. You're right. Photography without IBIS? Who would even try? Recipe for Disaster. Fools Errand. Lost Cause. Imagine me, shooting for clients for over 30 years. If they only knew about the lack of IBIS on every camera I've owned (except the current one, a GFX100) they certainly would have never hired me...I might have to start sending out refunds.



Your condescension is noted. Now that you've shown how snarky you can be maybe you should address the issue that I presented, which is that Canon is marketing the R5C as a hybrid camera "ready for anything" while removing a major photography feature present in the R5. 

The R5C is a step backwards in the photography department, it doesn't even tread water compared to its predecessor. At $4,500 that's an issue.


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## sergeyross (Jan 19, 2022)

entoman said:


> Yet Nikon and Sony have brought to market professional-level cameras capable of non time-limited 8K, and that have retained IBIS. If they can do so, why can't Canon?
> 
> The only conclusion I can reach is deliberate market-segmentation. They have decided to send out a clear message (with which I have no argument) that stills shooters and casual videographers should still go for the R5, and that the R5C is not in any way aimed at them.


I'm certain Canon could have brought IBIS to R5C, they chose not to do so. Here's how I see this whole R5 pickle happening.

Canon developed what they thought was a revolutionary hybrid camera that could shoot 8K video - R5. It was never meant to have unlimited recordings. It was meant to give a sub-segment of photographers who also do video a taste of Canon video prowess and lure them into Cinema line.
What Canon did not anticipate was a significant backlash over overheating of the R5. Obviously blown out of proportion like anything on the web. Sony A7SIII comparison tests were humiliating for Canon even though you are comparing apples and oranges. Video camera 12mp vs primary stills 45mp.

Canon may not known about A7SIII specs or perhaps they didn't care before the release. What they certainly didn't anticipate were the side by side comparisons with Sony. Perhaps, at this moment, someone at Canon got enough justification for a new product (R5C) based on a segment of people who, as it turns out, wanted unlimited video recording in a mirrorless format. And so R5C project was greenlit internally.

Canon set an aggressive, for hardware at least, timeline to launch a modified R5 with a fan this time.
But they simple didn't want to invest the engineering cost to have active cooling work with IBIS. It all comes down to this. Canon spent a ton of R&D and development money to make R5 chassis. They want to extend those cost on another product, not engineer one from scratch.

IBIS working with active cooling required, and this is my guess, a complete or major redesign. That's huge cost, that's pushed launch date, etc, etc.
So, What Canon execs do? They, correctly, say we can't add IBIS into R5C. And they are correct. What of course they wouldn't say, is that would actually decided not to redesign the whole body to make it happen. It's a simple business decision. Rational, logical.

Why did Canon leave micro-HDMI? Again, back to chassis engineering. They wanted to lower the cost of R5C development as much as possible.
Will they introduce a better model in the future? Nobody knows.

Nikon Z9, Sony A1 8K + IBIS - those guys had it planned and designed from day 1. Canon R5 was designed for short bursts of video.
That's my take on the situation.


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## entoman (Jan 19, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> Except that, as you've been told, time and time again, the audience Canon wishes to target with this body largely doesn't need IBIS, and may not want it at all, as it is one more mechanical element that can fail in demanding usage/environmental conditions. I'm not saying you shouldn't want IBIS or be disappointed that this body doesn't include it, but the hyperbole being expressed about it in this thread is absolutely ridiculous, and I firmly believe that if it was a matter of profit and customer preference, they would put it in the body and jack up MSRP accordingly.


The problem is that there seems to be no communication between the marketing department and the design and manufacturing teams. The marketing team are calling this a "hybrid" camera that is "ready for anything". But it has been designed as a professional video camera (which doesn't need IBIS), that pays little more than lip service to stills shooters (who gain hugely from IBIS).

The moral of the story is that if you are serious about video, get the R5C, but if you are serious about stills, get the R5.

.. or if you are equally serious about stills and video, get a Z9.


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## Jethro (Jan 19, 2022)

It's amazing how much quicker you can flick through 10 pages of comments when you ignore any which include 'cripple hammer' ...


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## entoman (Jan 19, 2022)

Alan B said:


>


Yep, Gordon has produced a very thorough review of a pre-production sample of the R5C, which should be compulsory viewing for anyone thinking about buying this tool.


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## tataylino (Jan 19, 2022)

The crippled specs maybe the result of the low price?
I have worked in a design team before though it was not a camera design. The marketing team is the one giving us the specs and the target cost. After we evaluated the design, we often get back to marketing team and give them choice like "increase the target cost or remove these features". And sometimes we ask to extend the deadline or remove this feature.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 19, 2022)

goldenhusky said:


> You would be happy with anything Canon produces at any price point isn't it? Seriously though is there anything ever Canon produced has disappointed you?


What gives you that idea? I like the gear I’ve bought, because I’ve chosen carefully. For example, I never bought a 50/1.4 or 50/1.8 – I’m pretty sure I’d be disappointed with them. That’s why I only own one non-L Canon FF lens (the MP-E 65mm).

If I’m not reasonably certain I’d be happy with something, I don’t buy it. If I’m not sure one way or the other, I’ll buy it used and re-sell it if I’m not happy. I did that with the 300/4L (bought a new 100-400L), the 200/2.8L (bought a new 70-200/2.8L IS II), etc. The MP-E 65 was one of those, actually.

People who buy something then complain probably didn’t do sufficient research before the purchase. But I think most people complaining on this forum never had any intention (and/or means) of actually buying whatever product they’re complaining about.

Like people on car enthusiast forums complaining about a sports coupe with a supercharged V8 instead of a V12 when in reality they need to drive 4 kids to school and/or barely have the down payment for a Corolla in their savings.

It’s why there are a bunch of ‘if only’ comments. I’d have bought the R5C if only it had IBIS. I’d have bought the R3 if only it had more than 24 MP. In most cases, no…you wouldn’t have.


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## byjohnburns (Jan 19, 2022)

Sampetra said:


> Your condescension is noted. Now that you've shown how snarky you can be maybe you should address the issue that I presented, which is that Canon is marketing the R5C as a hybrid camera "ready for anything" while removing a major photography feature present in the R5.
> 
> The R5C is a step backwards in the photography department, it doesn't even tread water compared to its predecessor. At $4,500 that's an issue.


I guess I'm failing to see why IBIS is really that important to begin with. Everybody has their way of shooting, so not trying to discredit anyone -- I just don't really understand the outrage over it lol. For me, it's handy if I'm shooting fast action and want motion blur, and it's handy if I'm too lazy to use a tripod for an occasional long exposure. Beyond that, how often are people shooting at ridiculously slow shutter speeds? I've never wanted IBIS and in a year of owning the R5 and doing 4-5 shoots per week, I've only benefited from it twice: once when shooting Nascar and once when shooting NHRA. And I could have lived without it then.

The photo side is 100% identical to the R5 minus the IBIS. Claiming that the R5C isn't a true hybrid due to its absence of a single feature that is useless above 1/200th doesn't check out. By nature, hybrid traditionally = compromise. Think about bikes - a hybrid with shocks and thicker tires will fair better off-road than a road bike, but it won't excel at one or the other the way a road or mountain bike would. A really good one might get you 75% of the way there on both fronts (and I mean a _really_ good one). It's the way it works: I have yet to see any hybrid product from ANY industry overcome this rule.


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## scyrene (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> BTW - I don't think the R5 ever needed a fan at all. The 1DC never needed a fan - all it had was a very well designed heat sink. Ultimately the R5 just needed a better designed heat sink as well.
> 
> So there's no good excuse here for why IBIS was removed, other than finding a convenient way to differentiate the products and forcing you to buy separate photo and video products - which seems to have always been the Canon gameplan from day 1.
> *
> So does Canon really understand the market anymore?*



The 1DC was a much larger body. And it didn't have IBIS either, shock.

As to your question, they're still by far the most successful camera company, so I'm gonna guess they understand the market than you...


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## scyrene (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> So let's put it a bit differently then.
> Say you've driven an older car without a CD player/MP3/SiriusXM/Navigation/etc for years
> Now you want to upgrade. You obviously want to upgrade to the latest standards of car technology, right? So why would you buy a new car without all that built in infotainment, even though its now in most cars?
> Same applies to IBIS. Its in almost every pro-body ILC. So why omit it here?
> ...



Sounds like you're holding out for a perfect camera that cannot by definition exist. Or else you just like to moan. A very plausible explanation has been offered in this thread as to why the feature you're so upset about is missing.

And as for your apparent belief that a hybrid device must be as good at everything as specialised tools... have you looked at how anything works?


----------



## scyrene (Jan 19, 2022)

cayenne said:


> YEs..but IBIS plus Lens IS combined is even better.
> 
> And remember, this R5C is supposed to be for both Video AND Stills.
> 
> You could lock off the IBIS if you wanted for video but switch it on for stills.....and these days, IBIS is pretty much considered a commodity at this price range for stills.


So you didn't read the thread. Heat dissipation is not the same. Seems reasonable to me. But by all means believe a conspiracy theory.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> *So does Canon really understand the market anymore?*





scyrene said:


> As to your question, they're still by far the most successful camera company, so I'm gonna guess they understand the market than you...


Yes, it’s amazing how many people on this forum seem to understand the ILC market so much better than the global, multibillion dollar company that dominates that market today and has led it for the past two decades.


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## Respinder (Jan 19, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Sounds like you're holding out for a perfect camera that cannot by definition exist. Or else you just like to moan. A very plausible explanation has been offered in this thread as to why the feature you're so upset about is missing.
> 
> And as for your apparent belief that a hybrid device must be as good at everything as specialised tools... have you looked at how anything works?


You know what? If you want to be a Canon apologist then you do you. But just realize that you'll be seeing the same issues from Canon time and time again. 

If you bothered to read any of my other posts, you'll notice that Canon DID in fact make three perfect cameras - cameras without compromises: the original 5D Mark II, the 1DC and the 1DX Mark III. Canon is capable of creating a perfect camera without compromise. Want to see other cameras with little to no compromise? Look at the Nikon Z9 or the Sony A1. In Nikon's case, they removed the mechanical shutter - a feature that most folks don't care about - but they also ensured that rolling shutter would be dramatically reduced.



sergeyross said:


> I'm certain Canon could have brought IBIS to R5C, they chose not to do so. Here's how I see this whole R5 pickle happening.
> 
> Canon developed what they thought was a revolutionary hybrid camera that could shoot 8K video - R5. It was never meant to have unlimited recordings. It was meant to give a sub-segment of photographers who also do video a taste of Canon video prowess and lure them into Cinema line.
> What Canon did not anticipate was a significant backlash over overheating of the R5. Obviously blown out of proportion like anything on the web. Sony A7SIII comparison tests were humiliating for Canon even though you are comparing apples and oranges. Video camera 12mp vs primary stills 45mp.
> ...


This is absolutely the correct take. Canon clearly wanted to get something out the door as quickly as possible. And clearly from the reaction, you've got quite a few folks who will buy this camera. But given my style of run-and-gun videography + traditional photography, I'll need something with IBIS.


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## vladk (Jan 19, 2022)

Sampetra said:


> Let's see if Canon agrees with your assessment, currently on the front page of their website:
> 
> View attachment 202150
> 
> ...


LOL, you opened my eyes.
I was not aware that first Canon camera that is exactly ready for stills was made only in 2020...


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## stevelee (Jan 19, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> For all those status conscious people out there, the shutter release is red. That matches the red rings in your lenses and the red accent in the digital crown of your Apple Watch.


I looked at my watch, and there is a red ring on the crown. I had forgotten about that. Now I feel a much higher level of status.


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## dtaylor (Jan 19, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> It is actually weather sealed


I read that after posting and was shocked. Still don't know if I would trust it as much as an R5, but...impressive on Canon's part.


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## scyrene (Jan 19, 2022)

Respinder said:


> You know what? If you want to be a Canon apologist then you do you. But just realize that you'll be seeing the same issues from Canon time and time again.
> 
> If you bothered to read any of my other posts, you'll notice that Canon DID in fact make three perfect cameras - cameras without compromises: the original 5D Mark II, the 1DC and the 1DX Mark III. Canon is capable of creating a perfect camera without compromise. Want to see other cameras with little to no compromise? Look at the Nikon Z9 or the Sony A1. In Nikon's case, they removed the mechanical shutter - a feature that most folks don't care about - but they also ensured that rolling shutter would be dramatically reduced.
> 
> ...


Lol. Yup, I'm an apologist cos I don't agree with your endless and at some points nonsensical complaints. I'll admit I didn't read every word because they were pretty long posts, and there were a lot of them, and the gist has been clear.

I don't believe any camera is perfect fwiw and absolutely every product involves compromises but since you do, why didn't you but a 1DxIII, instead of sticking with your 5D3?

As others have pointed out and you've failed to respond - you claim to need this feature but must be managing without it. So it's essential or not?


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 19, 2022)

byjohnburns said:


> I guess I'm failing to see why IBIS is really that important to begin with. Everybody has their way of shooting, so not trying to discredit anyone -- I just don't really understand the outrage over it lol. For me, it's handy if I'm shooting fast action and want motion blur, and it's handy if I'm too lazy to use a tripod for an occasional long exposure. Beyond that, how often are people shooting at ridiculously slow shutter speeds? I've never wanted IBIS and in a year of owning the R5 and doing 4-5 shoots per week, I've only benefited from it twice: once when shooting Nascar and once when shooting NHRA. And I could have lived without it then.
> 
> The photo side is 100% identical to the R5 minus the IBIS. Claiming that the R5C isn't a true hybrid due to its absence of a single feature that is useless above 1/200th doesn't check out. By nature, hybrid traditionally = compromise. Think about bikes - a hybrid with shocks and thicker tires will fair better off-road than a road bike, but it won't excel at one or the other the way a road or mountain bike would. A really good one might get you 75% of the way there on both fronts (and I mean a _really_ good one). It's the way it works: I have yet to see any hybrid product from ANY industry overcome this rule.


Do a test, take your R5 use a lens without IS and IBIS turned on for few days and let's see if you gonna have the same opinion. Especially if you are shoting mostly handheld in the move. 
Afoy you do it you will notice how much ibis and is helps even up to1/400 of a sec. Depending on the lens.


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## Durf (Jan 20, 2022)

I bet there are many video junkies now wishing they wouldn't of spent so much money for the R5 and just waited for this beast instead!
Smooth play and marketing move Canon!!!! (Canon is laughing out loud)


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## reef58 (Jan 20, 2022)

Respinder said:


> I believe Canon has released three bodies over 12 years that meet the definition of "perfection":
> 1. Canon 5D Mark II (2008)
> 2. Canon 1DC (2012)
> 3. Canon 1DX Mark III (2021)
> ...


The 1dx3 is not perfect, but is my favorite camera. They are not trying to protect cinema cameras. They are different beast. Again none of the Canon Cinema cameras have IBIS.


Sampetra said:


> Let's see if Canon agrees with your assessment, currently on the front page of their website:
> 
> View attachment 202150
> 
> ...


Are you saying my 1dx3 is not a stills camera ready for anything? News to me. 

It seems to me canon split the R5 between still centric shooters and video centric shooters. If you are as tills shooter and need IBIS the R5 is great. If you are a video shooter and don't need IBIS the R5C is great.


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## goldenhusky (Jan 20, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Well I need a good Hybrid camera, with video without handicaps R5 is missing a lot of those check points. As I said unfortunately I think I will have to extend for the R3, would prefer slightly cheaper and smaller R5c with IBIS since I think Switching to another system would be a waste of money.
> Also I have 28-70 which is not stabilised and that is the lens I use for 70% of my work...Don't understand your "aggressive" attitude? So people can't be disapointed? Especially after spending a decent house with a property on the equipment in last few years?



Unfortunately that's been the attitude of some in this forum. To them everything Canon does is perfect. I am not sure if they really feel that way or just get defensive here.


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## dtaylor (Jan 20, 2022)

sergeyross said:


> I'm certain Canon could have brought IBIS to R5C, they chose not to do so. Here's how I see this whole R5 pickle happening.


Canon sensors are not Sony sensors. Canon has lagged Sony in readout speeds. While they are clearly closing that gap, the 1DX mark III/R6 and R5 sensors are their first generation which can support FF, full width, full resolution, oversampled video readout. So it's a good guess that Sony's latest generation is more power efficient than Canon's first generation with this capability.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 20, 2022)

reef58 said:


> If you are as tills shooter and need IBIS the R5 is great. If you are a video shooter and don't need IBIS the R5C is great.


If you are a video shooter who needs IBIS, too bad for you. The thing is, Canon markets to the majority. The fact that you want or need something, and that maybe you can find a couple other people on the internet who feel the same, doesn’t mean you’re in the majority.

That’s a tough pill for some people to swallow.


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## reef58 (Jan 20, 2022)

Respinder said:


> You know what? If you want to be a Canon apologist then you do you. But just realize that you'll be seeing the same issues from Canon time and time again.
> 
> If you bothered to read any of my other posts, you'll notice that Canon DID in fact make three perfect cameras - cameras without compromises: the original 5D Mark II, the 1DC and the 1DX Mark III. Canon is capable of creating a perfect camera without compromise. Want to see other cameras with little to no compromise? Look at the Nikon Z9 or the Sony A1. In Nikon's case, they removed the mechanical shutter - a feature that most folks don't care about - but they also ensured that rolling shutter would be dramatically reduced.
> 
> ...


Your definition of "no compromise" is evidently different than mine. The Z9 is a great camera and I am glad to see Nikon back in the headlines, but the camera is not perfect. It has compromises the same as any other camera. Just an example is the high speed shooting is in jpeg. Pick what you want and get the closest you can get. 

Just a quick example. I am probably going to buy a C100 MkII. Madness by today's specs for sure. Canon sent me one to try and the camera is superb for shooting video. It has some warts, but the overall function one of the best for video I have used. If I just looked at the specs it would be a hard pass in 2022. I know this thread is full flame at this point, but do keep that in mind.


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## reef58 (Jan 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> If you are a video shooter who needs IBIS, too bad for you. The thing is, Canon markets to the majority. The fact that you want or need something, and that maybe you can find a couple other people on the internet who feel the same, doesn’t mean you’re in the majority.
> 
> That’s a tough pill for some people to swallow.


Which "video" cameras offer IBIS? They offer EIS which seems to work better for video as explained by people much smarter than I. 

If you are a video shooter and need/want IBIS what is wrong with the R3, R5 or R6?


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## dtaylor (Jan 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> If you are a video shooter who needs IBIS, too bad for you.


That's not even true though. They can buy an R3, R5, or R6, and if they need long takes (really long on the R3) they can add an external recorder.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 20, 2022)

reef58 said:


> Which "video" cameras offer IBIS? They offer EIS which seems to work better for video as explained by people much smarter than I.
> 
> If you are a video shooter and need/want IBIS what is wrong with the R3, R5 or R6?


I honestly don’t really care, because I don’t shoot video. I imagine some people want 8K video in >30 minute chunks, or something like that, and also want IBIS whether for video or the stills part of hybrid shooting.

Really, my point is that Canon doesn’t need to please everyone, they need to please the majority of bona fide potential buyers for a product. The Venn diagram overlap between that group and those complaining on this forum is probably very small.


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## goldenhusky (Jan 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> What gives you that idea?



I am in this forum for at least 5 years now and I have only known you praising Canon for anything they do and vehemently defend Canon. Good for you you are doing thorough research before you buy.



neuroanatomist said:


> But I think most people complaining on this forum never had any intention (and/or means) of actually buying whatever product they’re complaining about.



That is your assumption, for e.g. I pre-ordered R5C this morning and I cancelled it. Now you may say "see you did not do your research", the only reason I pre-ordered is I want to be ahead in the queue then I came here to see what people have to say about this camera. I learnt there is no Full HDMI and IBIS. I cancelled my pre-order. To me no full HDMI is a deal breaker and IMO Full HDMI is something really simple to add when they redesigned the body to accommodate the cooling fan. Before you ask, yes I had Canon Camcorders with micro HDMI break on me and Canon' solution is replace the board, that costs a lot of $. Hence a person like me will say Canon' cripple hammer at work and your response will be "if you want full HDMI you need to spend 30 grant on a cinema camera. This Camera is not meant for you". The reality I do not have to pay even $50 more to get a Full HDMI port on any camera. It is a simple thing to add but Canon does not want to do that. From my perspective this is intentionally crippling the camera. At least with IBIS one can argue that most cinematographers do not need that but why not a full HDMI port at least?


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## byjohnburns (Jan 20, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Do a test, take your R5 use a lens without IS and IBIS turned on for few days and let's see if you gonna have the same opinion. Especially if you are shoting mostly handheld in the move.
> Afoy you do it you will notice how much ibis and is helps even up to1/400 of a sec. Depending on the lens.


I regularly use the original R as a second camera and the photos it takes are sharp as sharp can be. I shot a nonstop 3-day music festival on the R5 and lent the R to my second shooter, who was shooting with a pro camera for the first time. Comparing the files from the R5 with IBIS to the R's with no IBIS, there is no difference in terms of sharpness (resolution is obviously a different story). And I guarantee that any photo that would have been shot below 1/400th would have been blurry because of motion in front of the lens - not behind it.

IBIS is not a useless feature, but it's absolutely trivial for me personally. In the 73,000 photos I took last year, it only made a lick of difference on the two shoots I previously mentioned.

This is a bit of a sidebar however. The point to take away is that a hybrid is, by definition, neither fully one thing or the other. If you put orange juice and apple juice in a cup you're not getting 100% of either. You're getting a ratio between the two. There will be compromises, and if it wasn't IBIS it would have been something else. Look at any hybrid anything on the market and you'll find this to be true.

I think the bottom line is that if you don't want a compromise camera, you don't want a hybrid camera. There's plenty lacking on the cinema side too, if I want to hold it to pure cinema camera standards. But I don't, because there is zero expectation for this camera to be a fully fledged cinema camera.

What the R5C is is a remarkable hybrid. It appears that many people here don't want a hybrid despite saying they do.


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## Sampetra (Jan 20, 2022)

vladk said:


> LOL, you opened my eyes.
> I was not aware that first Canon camera that is exactly ready for stills was made only in 2020...



You're missing the point. The R5C costs more while removing features of the R5.

We all expected the R5C to cost more _and add features. _Not cost more, add _some _features that should have been in the R5 to begin with and _then remove existing R5 features._

Furthermore, tech moves forward. At this price point we should expect IBIS in a $4,500 camera that boasts it's a hybrid "ready for anything."

Canon removing it is a step back and they shouldn't be defended.


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## bergstrom (Jan 20, 2022)

goldenhusky said:


> Unfortunately that's been the attitude of some in this forum. To them everything Canon does is perfect. I am not sure if they really feel that way or just get defensive here.



Canon has pissed people off with the bad HDMI slot, so that might actually affect sales.


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## landon (Jan 20, 2022)

HYBRID shooters. I can't imagine you're using a camera the whole day, switching back and forward between photo/video, day in day out. Imagine the wear and tear on the camera.
Consider these combinations. 

R5, Ninja V+ and (R5)
R5, Ninja V+ and (R5C)
R5, Ninja V+ and (R1)
R5, Ninja V+ and (R3)
R5, Ninja V+ and (C70)
R5, Ninja V+ and (Komodo)


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 20, 2022)

Jethro said:


> It's amazing how much quicker you can flick through 10 pages of comments when you ignore any which include 'cripple hammer' ...


I skipped everything that said “IBIS” after page 5…

Anyone else have any thoughts on the R5C using DPAF 2 in photo mode and DPAF 1 in Cinema mode?


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## Quirkz (Jan 20, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> When people say video people don’t want ibis that is a very small group based in Hollywood, gimbals are overrated for many situations. People who buy this are the hike a mountain types that can only cary minimal gear, or people who do content gathering for news work that maybe high paced, canon misses the mark on this by removing the ibis. I shoot and do video work with motocross I legit was wanting this camera to have ibis to keep a more compact set up. Canon went cripple hammer and want people to buy both.


serious question here: Would one of the existing 4k camera with ibis then be better for your needs? Do you need 8k for news/motorcross?


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## transpo1 (Jan 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> If you are a video shooter who needs IBIS, too bad for you. The thing is, Canon markets to the majority. The fact that you want or need something, and that maybe you can find a couple other people on the internet who feel the same, doesn’t mean you’re in the majority.
> 
> That’s a tough pill for some people to swallow.


IBIS or not, here we are, remembering how many times you and others on this forum (CC: Mikehit and rrcphoto) put forward the idea that Canon didn't want or care about video in their stills cameras, and was only marketing to the majority, and if people wanted 4K (now) 8K in their still camera bodies, Canon would _know_ (Canon marketing is infallible, they would know if people wanted HQ video in stills bodies, et al.). 

Now, finally, we have the R5C, which fulfills the promise to hybrid shooters that Canon made many, many years ago with the 5D Mark II, at relatively low cost. Which proves once and for all, that video belongs in these still camera bodies as part of a hybrid approach. And the world will never be the same. (Lack of IBIS, is of course, probably an engineering necessity in this case.)

Now, Neuro, we go back a long ways, and I know you will protest, so I leave you with a quote:

_“Imaging professionals are living in a multimedia world. Gone are the days of only needing to be sufficiently equipped and skilled at video or stills,” said Tatsuro “Tony” Kano, Executive Vice President and General Manager of Canon U.S.A.’s Imaging Technologies & Communications Group._

If only Canon had realized this years ago, they would have never lost FF market share to Sony. Cheers to you and to everyone who fought over video in stills bodies- now that Canon has realized the correct path forward, we never need to debate it again. 

I say this with love and respect for the knowledge that you and others otherwise put forward on this forum.


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 20, 2022)

reef58 said:


> The 1dx3 is not perfect, but is my favorite camera. They are not trying to protect cinema cameras. They are different beast. Again none of the Canon Cinema cameras have IBIS.
> 
> Are you saying my 1dx3 is not a stills camera ready for anything? News to me.
> 
> It seems to me canon split the R5 between still centric shooters and video centric shooters. If you are as tills shooter and need IBIS the R5 is great. If you are a video shooter and don't need IBIS the R5C is great.


Canon UK said in an interview that they view the R5 and R5C like this:

The R5 is for someone that shoots 80% stills, and 20% video.

The R5C is for someone that shoots 20% stills, and 80% video.

And if you fall inbetween you might be better off with two different bodies.

So. Make of that what you will. Personally I think I’ll keep saving for an R1 since I have my c70 and R6 for now.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 20, 2022)

goldenhusky said:


> I am in this forum for at least 5 years now and I have only known you praising Canon for anything they do and vehemently defend Canon.


Stating facts, such as Canon is the ILC market leader, is not praise. 

When someone claims, “Canon is stupid for omitting (insert someone’s favorite feature here), no one will buy this camera and Canon is d00med,” pointing out the asinine nature of such a claim constitutes a ‘vehement defense of Canon’? If you say so. 



goldenhusky said:


> That is your assumption, for e.g. I pre-ordered R5C this morning and I cancelled it.


As I said, ‘most people’. Good for you, doing your research.


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## bergstrom (Jan 20, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> That's not even true though. They can buy an R3, R5, or R6, and if they need long takes (really long on the R3) they can add an external recorder.



All of these cameras have reports of lockups. Really bad of Canon to make expensive gear thats flawed.


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## danfaz (Jan 20, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> All of these cameras have reports of lockups. Really bad of Canon to make expensive gear thats flawed.


I've never had any of my cameras lock up. Just my experience, not saying there haven't been reports.


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## Jethro (Jan 20, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> All of these cameras have reports of lockups. Really bad of Canon to make expensive gear thats flawed.


Wow, you're really dredging the riverbed now, aren't you? If all Canon's recent FFM cameras are so fundamentally flawed from your point of view, maybe you'd be better off with another brand. There are some very good non-Canon bodies out there.


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## byjohnburns (Jan 20, 2022)

danfaz said:


> I've never had any of my cameras lock up. Just my experience, not saying there haven't been reports.


I did have my R lock up twice, and the R5 has once as well. Both instances were quickly solved by killing power and ejecting the battery, then booting everything back up. Crappy SD cards nearing the end of their life turned out to be the culprit -- they froze my laptop too lol. I know Manny Ortiz had the same issue using incompatible cards with the original R. 

I think the R5 has had some strange compatibility issues with certain CFExpress too. In my experience, at least when it comes to Canon, SanDisk ExtremePro is super reliable and problem-free


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## AEWest (Jan 20, 2022)

DBounce said:


> Yet somehow Panasonic has managed to figure out how to provide active cooling and IBIS in the S1H that was released 3 years ago? I’m gonna call BS on Canon’s excuse. Canon also claimed they left out IBIS because video shooters use gimbals. I wonder who’s taking stills on a gimbal?


Apples and oranges. The S1H does not do 6K at 60P, let alone 8K raw at 60P. The processing power required by the Canon is so much higher that a larger heat sink is required.


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## AEWest (Jan 20, 2022)

Respinder said:


> So let's put it a bit differently then.
> Say you've driven an older car without a CD player/MP3/SiriusXM/Navigation/etc for years
> Now you want to upgrade. You obviously want to upgrade to the latest standards of car technology, right? So why would you buy a new car without all that built in infotainment, even though its now in most cars?
> Same applies to IBIS. Its in almost every pro-body ILC. So why omit it here?
> ...


Hybrid can mean different things. I would say this camera is meant for 75% video, 25% stills. An R5 is closer to 50/50.


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## subratasenn (Jan 20, 2022)

The only thing that bothers me is the micro HDMI port. A full size HDMI port would have made the camera complete.


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## danfaz (Jan 20, 2022)

byjohnburns said:


> In my experience, at least when it comes to Canon, SanDisk ExtremePro is super reliable and problem-free


Yep, that's all I use. Could be why I've been so lucky!


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## NorskHest (Jan 20, 2022)

Quirkz said:


> serious question here: Would one of the existing 4k camera with ibis then be better for your needs? Do you need 8k for news/motorcross?


So I own 2 1dc's , 1dxmkiii, r5, 5dsr and a c300mkiii the 1dc's I use mostly for moto photo work as they just work, they worked better than the 1dxmkii that I got rid of and I will use them for long form interviews and things of that nature.

The 1dxmkiii I put on a gimbal from time to time and well its nice but it is cumbersome and only in crop mode cause the full frame is jello heaven I swear bill cosby is in my camera, the r5 which I use on cooler days or if there is rain cause well they run hot and I use for certain instances when I know it will have cooled down enough, the Ibis and DPAFv2 are untouchable for very specific moments, sometimes I like to shoot 50 1.2 on video as it really pulls you in and on the 4k 24hq mode with 50 1.2 you want (and need ) ibis and hot damn it looks amazing. gimbals fail and freak out at times, that r5 ibis does not, people forget every extra thing you attach to a camera is an additional point of failure and when you are running around you don't always want external recorder or a gimbal. 

When you work at the AMA Motocross events they are hot and it is Sonys and Panasonic's with a few reds everywhere when it is video being captured, this last year I legit ran into one other guy doing video with the r5 and he had three to use for when one would overheat, People that do work like that don't want a gimbal they want unlimited 4k with ibis in a non -cinema camera form factor, I was hopping to have this r5c replace a few of these bodies and just be on one and pair it up with my c300 for corporate and documentary work that I do but now I'm just like man I got first world problems to the max.

Canon legit became obsessed with this 8k resolution accomplishment and nothing else. I do news work as well and mostly riot coverage and I want to bring the r5 but it cannot be trusted when you are filming a police station burning, Ibis and a fan allow you to get things others cannot. They allow you to use a 135 f2 and have no shakes, for all the work I and many people do in journalism they want 4k master so they can deliver in 2k. No one really wants 8k, I mean we do but the data rates are insane, Arri has proven that amazing 4k is hard to beat. 

Did I pre order this camera yes, did i cancel the pre order after reading about the r5Cripple of the video autofocus and the removal of ibis yes I did, Do I want to buy a sony? nope, but I might. So after all that writing that most didn't read I hope people stop blanket statements on what they think others want or what would best help them do their jobs or hobbies, at the end of the day we are all humans and many of us on this forum want to create and see the world and instead of always being know it alls and assholes maybe we could take a moment and think maybe ill try to help this person or build them up instead of tearing them down


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Jan 20, 2022)

As someone who's owned a lot of Canon's cinema line, not a fan of the dual OS/menu implementation. The cinema OS is just much slower and less snappy than the photo OS. But the biggest let down is that it doesn't have custom video modes (C1, C2, C3), which will make it much slower to quickly switch multiple settings (frame rate, resolution, crop, etc). On the R5 go from 4k 120 fps 1/250 shutter H265 Clog3 to 1080p 23fps 1/50 S35 crop standard pic profile with 2 button clicks. With the R5c that'll be 10-20 clicks in a menu. 

I'm glad Canon made this camera, but just a lot of odd decisions.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 20, 2022)

So excited to be getting the R5C! My R5 will be my photo camera and the R5C will be my video. I've never used a cinema camera before and will have to learn that crazy menu system.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 20, 2022)

subratasenn said:


> The only thing that bothers me is the micro HDMI port. A full size HDMI port would have made the camera complete.


if you're really worried about the micro HDMI port, just get a jerkstopper and be at peace...


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## goldenhusky (Jan 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> When someone claims, “Canon is stupid for omitting (insert someone’s favorite feature here), no one will buy this camera and Canon is d00med,” pointing out the asinine nature of such a claim constitutes a ‘vehement defense of Canon’? If you say so.



That is too broad of a classification. Not every feature but there are very simple things as I pointed out a full HDMI port on a $4500 USD camera is a problem



neuroanatomist said:


> As I said, ‘most people’. Good for you, doing your research.



'most people' what data you have to back that claim?


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## unfocused (Jan 20, 2022)

byjohnburns said:


> ...In my experience, at least when it comes to Canon, SanDisk ExtremePro is super reliable and problem-free


 I wish. See my thread about R3 lockups, which I am going to update tonight. I had two lockups tonight using a SanDisk Extreme CF Express 256 gb card.


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## robotfist (Jan 20, 2022)

Respinder said:


> Also please note that this continued issue of feature subtraction/crippling is uniquely a Canon issue. I don't know any other company that does this. Certainly, Sony and Nikon do not. They both put their best foot forward in releasing the best products that people want to buy without the need to diminish features. Canon on the other hand keeps on doing the same thing again and again - releasing products with key features subtracted, forcing you to buy MORE products.


I disagree with this statement. Just look at the Sony FX3 for instance. Sony eliminated the evf from the a7s III and priced the camera higher. There’s also no waveform or timecode. The FX3 is an odd camera and I don’t get how it’s the better choice over an a7s III. It’s more expensive but has less features? You pay for more mounting holes, lol. As for Nikon, they have been purposely limiting their video features for YEARS in their cameras. It wasn’t until recently did they come to terms with what modern consumers want, and only because their market share was shrinking. They could no longer ignore including video features in their cameras.

One man’s perfect camera is another man’s disappointment.


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## Quackator (Jan 20, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Well I thinking more like the ibis to be like nikon's with a locking ability. And with an ability to decide to have it turned of and only lens IS on would be nice.


A free flying sensor can't be cooled as efficiently. Not at these data rates.
Among other reservations. I am happy for the chance to buy into a camera without IBIS.


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## perplex1 (Jan 20, 2022)

VERY dissapointed of the weird ass DPAF II in stills mode, and DPAF I in video mode. Why canon, for what? Its almost like you went out your way to do that to us.albeit, i don't know how that will translate in the real world. But it seems like an unecessary situation here


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## David - Sydney (Jan 20, 2022)

A dozen pages in and no one has mentioned that the R5c should be able to provide 33mp @ 60fps frame grabs. This may offset the lack of IBIS from a stills perspective. Is it correct that AF is not working at 8k60 and you will need external power supply/power bank for lens control poweer (IS/aperture etc)

It is clear that Craig removed the block on "cripple" in the forums


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 20, 2022)

byjohnburns said:


> I regularly use the original R as a second camera and the photos it takes are sharp as sharp can be. I shot a nonstop 3-day music festival on the R5 and lent the R to my second shooter, who was shooting with a pro camera for the first time. Comparing the files from the R5 with IBIS to the R's with no IBIS, there is no difference in terms of sharpness (resolution is obviously a different story). And I guarantee that any photo that would have been shot below 1/400th would have been blurry because of motion in front of the lens - not behind it.
> 
> IBIS is not a useless feature, but it's absolutely trivial for me personally. In the 73,000 photos I took last year, it only made a lick of difference on the two shoots I previously mentioned.
> 
> ...


It is not the same using a 30 mpx camera and using 45mpx camera that is the point, the why I wrote use the R5 without IS. Larger sensors benefit from having an ibis or any type of stabilization. Especially if you crop or print large print where the micro jitters are visible. 
People here don't understand what hybrid shooting means for a lot of people. 
This camera is a great solution but as a hybrid system R3 is far superior and to me the only true hybrid solution from canon but I was hoping for something like R3 in a smaller form factor. Like many of my colleagues where.


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 20, 2022)

Quackator said:


> A free flying sensor can't be cooled as efficiently. Not at these data rates.
> Among other reservations. I am happy for the chance to buy into a camera without IBIS.


Well Sony managed to pull it in a smaller body without a ventilation system in the A1 so it is obvious that is possible.


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 20, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> So I own 2 1dc's , 1dxmkiii, r5, 5dsr and a c300mkiii the 1dc's I use mostly for moto photo work as they just work, they worked better than the 1dxmkii that I got rid of and I will use them for long form interviews and things of that nature. The 1dxmkiii I put on a gimbal from time to time and well its nice but it is cumbersome and only in crop mode cause the full frame is jello heaven I swear bill cosby is in my camera, the r5 which I use on cooler days or if there is rain cause well they run hot and I use for certain instances when I know it will have cooled down enough, the Ibis and DPAFv2 are untouchable for very specific moments, sometimes I like to shoot 50 1.2 on video as it really pulls you in and on the 4k 24hq mode with 50 1.2 you want (and need ) ibis and hot damn it looks amazing. gimbals fail and freak out at times, that r5 ibis does not, people forget every extra thing you attach to a camera is an additional point of failure and when you are running around you don't always want external recorder or a gimbal. When you work at the AMA Motocross events they are hot and it is Sonys and Panasonic's with a few reds everywhere when it is video being captured, this last year I legit ran into one other guy doing video with the r5 and he had three to use for when one would overheat, People that do work like that don't want a gimbal they want unlimited 4k with ibis in a non -cinema camera form factor, I was hopping to have this r5c replace a few of these bodies and just be on one and pair it up with my c300 for corporate and documentary work that I do but now I'm just like man I got first world problems to the max. Canon legit became obsessed with this 8k resolution accomplishment and nothing else. I do news work as well and mostly riot coverage and I want to bring the r5 but it cannot be trusted when you are filming a police station burning, Ibis and a fan allow you to get things others cannot. They allow you to use a 135 f2 and have no shakes, for all the work I and many people do in journalism they want 4k master so they can deliver in 2k. No one really wants 8k, I mean we do but the data rates are insane, Arri has proven that amazing 4k is hard to beat. Did I pre order this camera yes, did i cancel the pre order after reading about the r5Cripple of the video autofocus and the removal of ibis yes I did, Do I want to buy a sony? nope, but I might. So after all that writing that most didn't read I hope people stop blanket statements on what they think others want or what would best help them do their jobs or hobbies, at the end of the day we are all humans and many of us on this forum want to create and see the world and instead of always being know it alls and assholes maybe we could take a moment and think maybe ill try to help this person or build them up instead of tearing them down


Can I ask you why didn't you go for the R3?
Asking cause it seams I will have to go with it having the same workflow like you do.
I own r5 and R6 and started to use R6 more for the video since the cool down is much faster and it actually cools down while shooting photos oppose to R5 which accumulate heat in a photo mode.
Now with r5c not fitting my needs I will have to go for the R3 which I will probably have to wait till March. But I Don't see a lot of people considering R3 here for the hybrid work flow, is there any reason for that, beside the price and the waiting time to get one?


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## Rofocale (Jan 20, 2022)

Anyone know if the dynamic range in the video is the same as it would be on the R5? I absolutely love the image I get from my C70, and it looks much nicer than that from my R5, but it would be nice to swap out the C70 for something that combines the best parts of each. Especially as the C70 has zero stills capability. Also, the C70 on a DJI Ronin RS2 is an arse to setup, a lighter load would work for me. But the colors it gets…


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## tomislavmoze (Jan 20, 2022)

Rofocale said:


> Anyone know if the dynamic range in the video is the same as it would be on the R5? I absolutely love the image I get from my C70, and it looks much nicer than that from my R5, but it would be nice to swap out the C70 for something that combines the best parts of each. Especially as the C70 has zero stills capability. Also, the C70 on a DJI Ronin RS2 is an arse to setup, a lighter load would work for me. But the colors it gets…


Since C70 is a DGO sensor it is superior regarding dynamic range to the sensor R5 and R5c share. If R5 was not good regarding colours and DR the R5c will probably also not be good. The advantage regarding image quality of the R5C compared to the R5 is dual ISO, less noise and ability to shot more codecs. But if you tried RAW on the R5 and that was not good enough compared to c70 I presume the R5c will be the same.


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## Rofocale (Jan 20, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Since C70 is a DGO sensor it is superior regarding dynamic range to the sensor R5 and R5c share. If R5 was not good regarding colours and DR the R5c will probably also not be good. The advantage regarding image quality of the R5C compared to the R5 is dual ISO, less noise and ability to shot more codecs. But if you tried RAW on the R5 and that was not good enough compared to c70 I presume the R5c will be the same.


That’s a fantastic answer, many thanks! Learning as I go. And glad that I’d be better off not shifting funds to buy a new body.


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## TravelerNick (Jan 20, 2022)

Respinder said:


> Wow - thats all I can say at this point.
> I was so looking forward to this camera, and everything in the video was going great - until, of course, he started saying "the still imaging features and operation of the EOS R5C are *nearly *identical".. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop after that. I had long predicted that IBIS would likely not make it in this camera, due to Canon's past practices of subtracting features in order to differentiate their product line. And of course, its missing. And Ill say it now - without IBIS, this camera is *junk*.
> 
> For me, this is really depressing. I'm still using my 5D Mark III from 10 years ago - not because I can't afford to buy another camera - but because I haven't found a camera that Canon has yet made that checks off all the boxes I need. All I've been waiting for since the beginning is a proper hybrid - a photo-video shooting product. Without IBIS, this product simply can't compete in the photography realm.
> ...



Does the FX6 have IBIS?

It's not very hard to make a list of features missing from Sony cameras. Sony just seems to get a pass.

DCI?
Internal raw?

The A1 is the most expensive camera in that segment.

Like a lot of things the question to ask is does it fit your needs? ND filters are more important if you're in a run and gun type situation with changing light. If that is what you face you'll want them. But that's not everybody.


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## Quirkz (Jan 20, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> So after all that writing that most didn't read


I read it all, thank you for the answer.

But next time splitting it in to paragraphs would really help making it clearer and easier for me  It's not the length of the reply, just difficult to read the single long paragraph.


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## TravelerNick (Jan 20, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Well Sony managed to pull it in a smaller body without a ventilation system in the A1 so it is obvious that is possible.



Does it do 60FPS? Does it do raw internally? Does it do DCI? You know there are reports it overheats ?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 20, 2022)

unfocused said:


> I wish. See my thread about R3 lockups, which I am going to update tonight. I had two lockups tonight using a SanDisk Extreme CF Express 256 gb card.


What makes you believe the card(s) are the cause of the lockups? You stated they occurred with other card brands, too.


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## Skyscraperfan (Jan 20, 2022)

Shouldn't it have an 1080/240p option, if it is a video centric camera?


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## peters (Jan 20, 2022)

monton1999 said:


> 11th generation Intel CPUs (Tiger Lake) have much better support for h.265/HEVC
> 
> They actually support hardware _decoding_ up to 8K 12bit 444 and _encoding_ up to 8k 10bit 444
> 
> ...


Oh nice, this looks promising!!!


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## TravelerNick (Jan 20, 2022)

peters said:


> Oh nice, this looks promising!!!



Even 10th gen laptop media decoders handled 10 bit 4.2.2 HEVC. The problem is you need something like Resolve that supports the hardware.


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## peters (Jan 20, 2022)

tataylino said:


> The crippled specs maybe the result of the low price?
> I have worked in a design team before though it was not a camera design. The marketing team is the one giving us the specs and the target cost. After we evaluated the design, we often get back to marketing team and give them choice like "increase the target cost or remove these features". And sometimes we ask to extend the deadline or remove this feature.


"Crippled specs" :-D 
Like its only a 45mp, 20fps high end photocamera AND a 8k60 RAW, 4k120 (downsampled from 8k!!!) cinema camera in a 690g compact body for under 5000 USD :-D :-D :-D Super crippled. 
All the competion is offeringmuuuuuuuuuuch better cameras with better specs for much lower prices :-D


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## peters (Jan 20, 2022)

BakaBokeh said:


> Agreed. Acceptable tradeoff for me. A dedicated menu designed and optimized for video is a plus, instead of trying to make it fit into the standard menu system. In fact, I do get confused by the menu being used for both video and photo on all other Canon bodies, because it just hides and adds features depending on the mode. I Often find myself wondering where something went, and remember "oh I have to switch to photo/video to get said feature." Plus I think firmware updates will probably bring the boot up time down.


I am right know pretty sure, that the slow switch time, was because of the sensor cleanup.
He showed the general boot time from "off" to photo oder video, and it was super fast, way under one second. Just like the R5. 
I guess it was only the sensor cleanup, while turning off, that took so long. 

On a job where I need to switch often and quick, I could just deactivate this feature and probably get this fast switch time. Although its rarely ever the case, that I need this fast switching.


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## bbasiaga (Jan 20, 2022)

cayenne said:


> Yup...that was me on the IBIS thing.
> 
> Until that blurb, I was thinking "ok, aside from a bit extra bulk and maybe a bit of weight gain...why would I take a R5 over a R5C?
> 
> ...


After watching a lot of the video crowd on YouTube, it seems that IBIS is a liability for them, causing weird artifacts when you want the camera to move, which videographers often do. Also, it seem technologically speaking they may have needed to fix the heat sync to the sensor which would make IBIS hard. I'm hoping we get a teardown sometime to show if that is the case, and what the weather sealing looks like on the fan system. 

Engineering is full of tradeoffs. Since this is video focused, they take IBIS out as that crowd will not use it often anyway. It is a hit to stills use, but really 2 stops of IBIS isn't much to lose (that's about what you get extra above the lens IS), and until the R5 came out none of the previous cameras had IBIS anyway. So its not like you CANT take photos without it. 

I think you look at these two cameras, and if you say "i shoot a lot of video but do some photography as well" the choice is clear. Similarly, if you say "I shoot a lot of stills, but do take some video work" the choice is also clear. Neither is one camera to rule them all. 

Brian


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## reef58 (Jan 20, 2022)

NorskHest said:


> So I own 2 1dc's , 1dxmkiii, r5, 5dsr and a c300mkiii the 1dc's I use mostly for moto photo work as they just work, they worked better than the 1dxmkii that I got rid of and I will use them for long form interviews and things of that nature. The 1dxmkiii I put on a gimbal from time to time and well its nice but it is cumbersome and only in crop mode cause the full frame is jello heaven I swear bill cosby is in my camera, the r5 which I use on cooler days or if there is rain cause well they run hot and I use for certain instances when I know it will have cooled down enough, the Ibis and DPAFv2 are untouchable for very specific moments, sometimes I like to shoot 50 1.2 on video as it really pulls you in and on the 4k 24hq mode with 50 1.2 you want (and need ) ibis and hot damn it looks amazing. gimbals fail and freak out at times, that r5 ibis does not, people forget every extra thing you attach to a camera is an additional point of failure and when you are running around you don't always want external recorder or a gimbal. When you work at the AMA Motocross events they are hot and it is Sonys and Panasonic's with a few reds everywhere when it is video being captured, this last year I legit ran into one other guy doing video with the r5 and he had three to use for when one would overheat, People that do work like that don't want a gimbal they want unlimited 4k with ibis in a non -cinema camera form factor, I was hopping to have this r5c replace a few of these bodies and just be on one and pair it up with my c300 for corporate and documentary work that I do but now I'm just like man I got first world problems to the max. Canon legit became obsessed with this 8k resolution accomplishment and nothing else. I do news work as well and mostly riot coverage and I want to bring the r5 but it cannot be trusted when you are filming a police station burning, Ibis and a fan allow you to get things others cannot. They allow you to use a 135 f2 and have no shakes, for all the work I and many people do in journalism they want 4k master so they can deliver in 2k. No one really wants 8k, I mean we do but the data rates are insane, Arri has proven that amazing 4k is hard to beat. Did I pre order this camera yes, did i cancel the pre order after reading about the r5Cripple of the video autofocus and the removal of ibis yes I did, Do I want to buy a sony? nope, but I might. So after all that writing that most didn't read I hope people stop blanket statements on what they think others want or what would best help them do their jobs or hobbies, at the end of the day we are all humans and many of us on this forum want to create and see the world and instead of always being know it alls and assholes maybe we could take a moment and think maybe ill try to help this person or build them up instead of tearing them down


Have you tired the electronic IS? I hear it works pretty well but there is a crop. I am certainly no IBIS/EIS guru. I mostly do tripod work.


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## reef58 (Jan 20, 2022)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> As someone who's owned a lot of Canon's cinema line, not a fan of the dual OS/menu implementation. The cinema OS is just much slower and less snappy than the photo OS. But the biggest let down is that it doesn't have custom video modes (C1, C2, C3), which will make it much slower to quickly switch multiple settings (frame rate, resolution, crop, etc). On the R5 go from 4k 120 fps 1/250 shutter H265 Clog3 to 1080p 23fps 1/50 S35 crop standard pic profile with 2 button clicks. With the R5c that'll be 10-20 clicks in a menu.
> 
> I'm glad Canon made this camera, but just a lot of odd decisions.


That is a good point, but the cinema camera have lots of programable buttons for one tough high frame rate ect.


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## ag25 (Jan 20, 2022)

After reading everything I could find about the R5c yesterday I had to weigh in with some thoughts:


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## unfocused (Jan 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> What makes you believe the card(s) are the cause of the lockups? You stated they occurred with other card brands, too.


Wishful thinking? 

Actually, I don't really think it is a card problem, but that's the "wisdom" on the internet, and it's the easiest variable to test. But, I haven't found anyone who actually has the problem with either the R5 or the R3 that fixed it by switching cards. Nor have I found anyone who fixed it by doing a factory reset of the settings or reloading the firmware, but I will probably try both of those "solutions" just to eliminate them. 

I would send it in to CPS, but I'm in the midst of the busy time of year and can't afford to be without the R3 for even a few days, since I sold the 1DxIII and almost all my EF glass. Plus, I haven't read of anyone who sent either the R5 or R3 in to Canon that had it fixed. I found last night I could simply turn the battery handle to the "remove" position and turn it back and it would reset the camera, so it now falls into the "nuisance" category, rather than the "disaster" category. I intend to keep trying different things and eliminating them one-by-one. Once things slow down a little, I will send it in to Canon, unless it gets significantly worse before then.


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Jan 20, 2022)

Canon could solve a lot of complaints if they added video back as an option in the photo OS side. Makes it a normal R5 with unlimited recording and no overheating. As-is we have to abandon the ability to simultaneously shoot photo & video (or deal with constant reboots), give up custom video modes, and supposedly give up the superior AF that comes in the photo OS compared to the cinema OS.


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## dtaylor (Jan 20, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> All of these cameras have reports of lockups. Really bad of Canon to make expensive gear thats flawed.


That's a possibility with any modern camera since their "firmware" is practically an entire OS. Pretty sure Canon will fix it in a revision. (Not defending this, I think the state of modern software development in general is horrific. But you're crazy if you think these types of issues only plague Canon.)


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## dtaylor (Jan 20, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> A dozen pages in and no one has mentioned that the R5c should be able to provide 33mp @ 60fps frame grabs. This may offset the lack of IBIS from a stills perspective. Is it correct that AF is not working at 8k60 and you will need external power supply/power bank for lens control poweer (IS/aperture etc)
> 
> It is clear that Craig removed the block on "cripple" in the forums


Is "d00med" still blocked? I'm not crazy about saying "ill fated" instead


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## dilbert (Jan 20, 2022)

This camera is clearly aimed primarily at video and stills second, as opposed to the R5 which is stills first, video secondary.


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## dilbert (Jan 20, 2022)

CanonGrunt said:


> Canon UK said in an interview that they view the R5 and R5C like this:
> 
> The R5 is for someone that shoots 80% stills, and 20% video.
> 
> ...



Exactly. If shooting stills is important to you, the R5C is not for you. it's not the camera you take birding, it's not the camera you take for photographing your kids soccer or out on a stroll around a new city. It might be the camera you use at wedding for shooting video of the ceremony plus the posed shots later.


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## cayenne (Jan 20, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> Canon removed IBIS to cripple the R5c to protect their cine cameras which have...no IBIS?
> 
> _Canon is clearly ill-fated!_
> 
> Also: if the R5c had IBIS it still wouldn't be weather sealed with a fan. Price/sealing would still sell the R5.


From what I understand, a fan does NOT pre-suppose that it is not weather sealed?

Did the R5C specs say if it has weather sealing or not?
I missed that part.

C


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## cayenne (Jan 20, 2022)

bgoyette said:


> Absolutely wrong I think. It's pretty obvious there was a reason to remove IBIS. That being heat. Given that they had to re-engineer this camera specifically around heat dissipation, there's a very obvious issue with IBIS, as it limits the size and functionality of any heat sink attached to the sensor. A bigger reason, though is that big red C on the body. That means it's a "CinemaEos" product and....welll...nothing in that line has IBIS...probably for reason # 1. Frankly, Ibis is always problematic in video...it never works right, as it is really designed to stabilize the sensor for stills. We all have to step back and realize this camera is always going to be a compromise because it is a hybrid. The lead feature is 8k, unlimited record times, and Cinema Raw Light. That's the camera they are selling you. I you want that...then you live without IBIS.


Maybe I missed it, but the only blurb I've seen or heard about removing IBIS from R5C...was a mention of something to do with people using "Cine Lenses"....?

Did anyone see anything else but this explanation from Canon?

C


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## cayenne (Jan 20, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> I'm sorry, but if you literally can't get sharp results with any mechanically sound lens without IBIS assistance, you're doing photography wrong.


It's not so much a lack of skills.
It is that you get used to IBIS being able to extend you ability to get shots you really cannot get without it.

It's almost like getting a faster lens in the sense that you can stretch the physical capabilities of your equipment that little bit more with IBIS and get the shot you just really cannot get without it.

That's the dependence I think most are speaking towards.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 20, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> That's a possibility with any modern camera since their "firmware" is practically an entire OS. Pretty sure Canon will fix it in a revision. (Not defending this, I think the state of modern software development in general is horrific. But you're crazy if you think these types of issues only plague Canon.)


One feature in most OSs that seems lacking from Canon's firmware is error logging/reporting. The problem with these lockups is that they are experienced intermittently and only by some users, which makes it very hard to determine the root cause. In the nearly two months I've had my R3, it has never locked up, while @unfocused has had it happen multiple times in a day. Does his have a hardware fault? Is it some combination of settings that cause a problem in certain situations, perhaps a particular metered exposure coupled with some exposure setting restriction or safety shift customizations? If Canon has logging in their firmware, at least a camera sent for service could be used to help identify the causative factors. But with a computer, there is onboard storage where logs can be written.


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## dtaylor (Jan 20, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> It is not the same using a 30 mpx camera and using 45mpx camera that is the point, the why I wrote use the R5 without IS. Larger sensors benefit from having an ibis or any type of stabilization. Especially if you crop or print large print where the micro jitters are visible.


I still personally shoot a 5Ds. Most of my lenses are stabilized. But the EF 24-70 f/2.8L II is not. I shoot it hand held all the time, I print large, and I have no issues with "micro jitters."

In fairness, when I overhauled my kit to the 5Ds I retained my old shutter speed habits from crop ( 1/(focal length * 1.5) ) since the pixel density was roughly the same. That said, as long as I'm careful with my technique I can shoot 1/focal length and even a bit lower and still have no motion blur or "micro jitters." But for 100% consistency I use the safe speeds.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 20, 2022)

danfaz said:


> I've never had any of my cameras lock up. Just my experience, not saying there haven't been reports.


Never had a lockup over nearly three years with an R and nearly two months with an R3. I have had an EOS M and a 1D X fail, but those were true failures not merely a lockup (the main PCB in the 1D X was replaced, I never found out what failed on the M because buying an M2 was about $20 more than the fixed-cost repair for the M).


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## DBounce (Jan 20, 2022)

AEWest said:


> Apples and oranges. The S1H does not do 6K at 60P, let alone 8K raw at 60P. The processing power required by the Canon is so much higher that a larger heat sink is required.



Ok, and Sony’s A1? What about Nikon’s Z9? All record 8K and all have IBIS. Oh, and neither require a fan and holes in the side of the camera.

I suspect we are going to see all of these issues resolved in the upcoming R1. The R1 will be my next Canon body. I’m skipping the strange variants and minor revisions to existing bodies. Until then I’ll just have to make do with my R3


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## dtaylor (Jan 20, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Well Sony managed to pull it in a smaller body without a ventilation system in the A1 so it is obvious that is possible.


Sony's sensors are not Canon's sensors. Most of what people have complained about on this forum for years has been the end result of Canon's chip fabrication being behind Sony's fabrication. Sony moved ADCs on chip long before Canon (hence the DR debates). Sony had full width, full resolution, oversampled video readout before Canon. Canon is catching up, but the 45mp R5 sensor runs hot. In terms of IQ it's a match for Sony's A1 sensor, but not in terms of power efficiency.

Your own posts confirm this where you speak about how shooting photos on the R5 keeps it from cooling down while the R6 recovers video time even while shooting stills. Stills eating into video time is one of the hints that for all its pluses, Canon's 45mp sensor is power hungry and hot. The R6 sensor is probably also hot relative to competitors, but it only has to readout 20mp, not 45mp.

I would guess these thermal issues will be resolved when Canon takes the level of design/fabrication they're using in the R3 sensor and apply it to a second generation 45/50mp sensor. For now we have the choices which we have. (And for anyone thinking "if Sony is ahead, why not jump to Sony?", I would say Canon is ahead in lens design/manufacturing, AF design, weather sealing, color science, and ergonomics. There are no perfect cameras, you have to pick your trade offs.)


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## dtaylor (Jan 20, 2022)

cayenne said:


> From what I understand, a fan does NOT pre-suppose that it is not weather sealed?
> 
> Did the R5C specs say if it has weather sealing or not?
> I missed that part.


I was wrong on that. Canon says the R5C is weather sealed despite the fan.


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## cayenne (Jan 20, 2022)

landon said:


> HYBRID shooters. I can't imagine you're using a camera the whole day, switching back and forward between photo/video, day in day out. Imagine the wear and tear on the camera.
> Consider these combinations.
> 
> R5, Ninja V+ and (R5)
> ...


Unfortunately, that requires more bulk, extra purchases, mounting gear to put it together, more cables, more batteries, etc....


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 20, 2022)

cayenne said:


> It's not so much a lack of skills.
> It is that you get used to IBIS being able to extend you ability to get shots you really cannot get without it.
> 
> It's almost like getting a faster lens in the sense that you can stretch the physical capabilities of your equipment that little bit more with IBIS and get the shot you just really cannot get without it.
> ...


The post I responded to indicated IBIS was the difference between them getting sharp shots or not with the EF 50mm f/1.0. First off, that's a huge, expensive, highly specialized lens, where if you're not deliberately shooting at f/1.0, you should pick a different one for the job. Second, the DOF at 50mm f/1.0 is less than 9 inches with a subject 10 feet away, and pre-mirrorless a photographer was much more subject to unit variation/calibration issues, so I don't doubt that it was much harder to get this lens in focus wide-open, but any mirrorless Canon should resolve that, even without IBIS. Finally, we're talking about literally one of the brightest lenses in existence - you should be able to shoot handheld indoors in ambient light with no IBIS at a shutter speed matching the focal length (1/50) at ISO 100 wide open...that's crazy, a daylight ISO indoors with no mechanical assistance. If you can't get sharp results at 1/50 (hand shake, moving car, etc.), you can go to ISO 200 (etc.) and go all the way to 1/100 for the shot, then it should be sharp, and the quality difference between ISO 100 and 200 on an R5 is minimal or nonexistent.

tl;dr - the example provided is a lens that most people should be able to shoot wide open at ISO 800 or less in almost any light where you can see your hand in front of your face and get a sharp image...so long as they know more about how to be a photographer than just clicking the shutter on the camera and hoping for the best.


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 20, 2022)

cayenne said:


> Unfortunately, that requires more bulk, extra purchases, mounting gear to put it together, more cables, more batteries, etc....


It's really not that hard. And if you're so exacting that you need unlimited 8k for long format recording, it's cheaper (and more reliable) to store the files on SSD than CF, and you're probably going to need external battery power, anyway. That's why this whining about mythical strawman hybrid shooting fantasies is ridiculous, it doesn't reflect anything someone actually does or needs to do. No one is limited by the fact that they can't hold an R5 for a full hour in a photo shooter's position with no outbound gear and get an uninterrupted 8k video...tripods or gimbals, batteries, and storage will all play a factor, at which point, the Ninja V+ is just one more thing. And having modular capabilities are a key SELLING point (not deterrence) for most actual video shooters, you can see it in the Sony ad copy as well, in addition to the hot shoe on the R3 and R5C.


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## Respinder (Jan 20, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Can I ask you why didn't you go for the R3?
> Asking cause it seams I will have to go with it having the same workflow like you do.
> I own r5 and R6 and started to use R6 more for the video since the cool down is much faster and it actually cools down while shooting photos oppose to R5 which accumulate heat in a photo mode.
> Now with r5c not fitting my needs I will have to go for the R3 which I will probably have to wait till March. But I Don't see a lot of people considering R3 here for the hybrid work flow, is there any reason for that, beside the price and the waiting time to get one?


Its funny because you and I seem to be looking at the same cameras 
I wanted to like the R3 but for me, I can't get over the 24MP. On the one hand, it may be a useful thing, as my workflow (from my current 5D Mark III) wouldn't change much and I'd be dealing with the same file sizes.

Then I watched a review last night by DP Review on the R3 - from the gist of it, seems like the R6 comes quite close in performance both in terms of high ISO and low light performance:





So given the R3's price point, I'm not sure this would work for me. I'll be waiting for the R1 as well as the R5 Mark II, and perhaps the R5C Mark II 
And perhaps there may even be a R1C eventually if Canon is successful with the R5C..


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## Respinder (Jan 20, 2022)

Wow what a day has made for me. So many emotions. When I first saw the announcement, my first post on here referred to the R5C as "junk". Of course I said that in raw emotion, and the R5C is quite a feat of engineering in general, although I am still disappointed at the same time.

Looking at all the hands-on videos last night, I think I do have a better understanding as to why Canon went with a fixed sensor vs floating sensor. And I have a much greater appreciation for what Canon has done in creating two independent video and photo environments - I do believe this is the way. While it may take time to switch over between the two environments, I don't think it will be hard for Canon to offer a future firmware update that would allow someone to take a photo from the video environment (apparently this can already be done) and vice-versa- taking a quick video from the photo environment. If not in this camera, I do see it migrating into other hybrid C cameras.

I do see Canon selling a lot of these. These cameras look very beautiful from the front, with the red accents - almost like the Ferrari of Canons. But the sideview - god that chunky side view!!  Theres a level of refinement that I would expect in every Canon model - I've often felt that Canons are so well designed that you hardly feel them in your hands. I still feel that this particular design is more unrefined - partially as this is Canon's first efforts in installing/designing a fan for a ILC body, and partially due to the limited time to get this camera to market?

I do see potential in a R5 Mark II eventually containing a better, more optimized heat management system to manage 8K workflow in a far better manner. I also see a potentially more refined R5C coming out that will have a far more refined design and updated features. I could also see an R1C along the way should Canon see success in these offerings.

For me, my issue is that the lack of IBIS will almost certainly prevent me from optimizing the run-and-gun video that I want to perform, while also still possessing a full-fledged photo camera. This video below demonstrates some of the micro-jitters that you'll see if you handhold this camera without a gimbal:





Of course a gimbal can correct all of this. But for me and how I wish to use this camera, I think taking a gimbal everywhere I go would be overkill, and theres lots of events where I cannot take a gimbal. For those in professional videography who take controlled video, I think this will be a very strong product. But for everyone else, its either the R5, or just wait for a future model.


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## jayphotoworks (Jan 20, 2022)

Hybrid's are always a compromise, but I'm curious why Canon chose these compromises here. The main criticism I have is the need to switch between photo/video OS. As a stills cameras, it is stills only as it cannot shoot video in photo mode and also doesn't have ibis. As a pro cine camera (utilizing the EOS C OS), it doesn't have NDs, utilizes a micro-hdmi port and can't autofocus the lens mount at certain resolutions since it uses the 16.7Wh LP-E6 style battery which doesn't have enough output. Most pro-cine camera take external batteries like the Canon BP-A30/A60 with up to 90Wh and some aftermarket batteries have built in D-Tap to power your FF/Wireless TX/etc. The camera's footprint itself is not exactly ergonomic either in either photo or video mode as a result.

I'm curious who the target market is for this. I give credit for them trying this approach as nobody has tried this yet. Most hybrid cameras on the market are a mix of 70% stills and 30% video more or less, but Canon tried to give it a 50%/50% mix with the photo/video side each giving up certain features. You would have to have a specific use case where you would be willing to put up with those compromises such as only wanting to carry 1 body on a job that requires both pro-stills and pro-video.

But the one positive is I think they got the price right. Any proper cine camera alone will cost way more than this and it won't be able to do any stills at all. You are mostly getting Canon's full featured cinema OS and body here along with most of what the R5 can also do in stills. Personally, I still enjoy prefer hybrids that can do mostly stills/video 70%/30% combined with a proper cine camera that can do 100% video duty. This half and half approach isn't where I would spend my money..


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## NorskHest (Jan 20, 2022)

Quirkz said:


> I read it all, thank you for the answer.
> 
> But next time splitting it in to paragraphs would really help making it clearer and easier for me  It's not the length of the reply, just difficult to read the single long paragraph.


Ha. I fixed it. I just went on a long talk to text thing and didn’t think about breaking it up


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## unfocused (Jan 20, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> That's not even true though. They can buy an R3, R5, or R6, and if they need long takes (really long on the R3) they can add an external recorder.





bergstrom said:


> All of these cameras have reports of lockups. Really bad of Canon to make expensive gear thats flawed.



@bergstrom, you are mixing apples and oranges. The lockups that I and others have experienced occurs during stills shooting. I am not aware of someone encountering a lockup while shooting video.


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## NorskHest (Jan 20, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Can I ask you why didn't you go for the R3?
> Asking cause it seams I will have to go with it having the same workflow like you do.
> I own r5 and R6 and started to use R6 more for the video since the cool down is much faster and it actually cools down while shooting photos oppose to R5 which accumulate heat in a photo mode.
> Now with r5c not fitting my needs I will have to go for the R3 which I will probably have to wait till March. But I Don't see a lot of people considering R3 here for the hybrid work flow, is there any reason for that, beside the price and the waiting time to get one?


Yes you can ask, I think the R3 is almost like a slap in the face if you're a 1D owner. There are some better things about it but it gets old buying and selling. There is no reason Canon should have crippled the read out speed of the 1dx and the R6 the way they did but they did. I wish they would have made a R6c now that would be fantastic as long as the read out speed was fixed. 

I actually just went and played with a R3 at my local camera store as the Canon rep is there and it feels quite nice and it has me thinking but the big problem I have like many people is that I don't want to buy a new computer to deal with the HEVC codec, sure I can run my atomos like I do with my 1Dx and 1Dc's but I then am trading out one for something very similar and yes I would gain IBIS but if people want to shoot in 10 bit you have to use that dreaded hevc, which I really cannot stand that if you shoot in 10 bit it is log and hevc. Why did they have to complicate it so much. I also just don't trust canon mirrorless in the conditions that I work in.

Until I see a review of a R3 in 100 degree heat and it doesn't over heat then maybe, until then I'll stick with way to many cameras. So here we are back to square one and that is first world problems.


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## NorskHest (Jan 20, 2022)

reef58 said:


> Have you tired the electronic IS? I hear it works pretty well but there is a crop. I am certainly no IBIS/EIS guru. I mostly do tripod work.


Its ok to use, I will use it at night when I have to put on fast glass with no stabe. I prefer IBIS as most probably do. People always think you should have a tripod or shoulder rig but they probably have never had to run with that stuff. 
Anyway hope all is rad


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## stevelee (Jan 20, 2022)

DBounce said:


> Ok, and Sony’s A1? What about Nikon’s Z9? All record 8K and all have IBIS. Oh, and neither require a fan and holes in the side of the camera.
> 
> I suspect we are going to see all of these issues resolved in the upcoming R1. The R1 will be my next Canon body. I’m skipping the strange variants and minor revisions to existing bodies. Until then I’ll just have to make do with my R3


“When Quinn the Eskimo gets here . . . “


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## stevelee (Jan 20, 2022)

cayenne said:


> From what I understand, a fan does NOT pre-suppose that it is not weather sealed?
> 
> Did the R5C specs say if it has weather sealing or not?
> I missed that part.
> ...


I don’t see how the fan could do much good without bringing in outside air.


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## BakaBokeh (Jan 20, 2022)

peters said:


> I am right know pretty sure, that the slow switch time, was because of the sensor cleanup.
> He showed the general boot time from "off" to photo oder video, and it was super fast, way under one second. Just like the R5.
> I guess it was only the sensor cleanup, while turning off, that took so long.
> 
> On a job where I need to switch often and quick, I could just deactivate this feature and probably get this fast switch time. Although its rarely ever the case, that I need this fast switching.


Interesting. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that the Off position is in between the two modes? So once it passes through, it automatically goes into sensor clean mode? Maybe firmware can be updated to bypass cleaning if switched from photo to video and vice versa instantaneously?

I did try to test it out on the R5 and noticed something interesting. Disabling the sensor clean on shutoff is only good for one time usage. It then resets to clean on auto-shutoff when you turn it back on again. If the R5C behaves this way, disabling sensor cleaning may not be a practical work around.


----------



## peters (Jan 20, 2022)

DBounce said:


> Ok, and Sony’s A1? What about Nikon’s Z9? All record 8K and all have IBIS. Oh, and neither require a fan and holes in the side of the camera.
> 
> I suspect we are going to see all of these issues resolved in the upcoming R1. The R1 will be my next Canon body. I’m skipping the strange variants and minor revisions to existing bodies. Until then I’ll just have to make do with my R3


Both, A1 and Z9 dont do 8k60, or am I mistaken?
Also the Z9 is much bigger, so its easier to put in a larger heatsink.
The A1 can overheat as far as I heard, but I am not sure. Its certainly an impressive camera. But than again, no 8k60, and the 4k120 is not oversampled from 8k (which is a huge feature in the R5C in my opinion). 

The S1H for example got a bit lower specs as the R5C and it also needed a fan.
The R5C is still a super duper small body - so I guess its still dificult to squeeze 8k60 and 4k120 oversampled without overheat in it, without a fan.


----------



## Jethro (Jan 20, 2022)

stevelee said:


> “When Quinn the Eskimo gets here . . . “


This should become the forum nickname for the R1 ...


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 20, 2022)

stevelee said:


> I don’t see how the fan could do much good without bringing in outside air.


Bringing in outside air doesn’t preclude weather sealing, obviously.


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## David - Sydney (Jan 20, 2022)

peters said:


> Both, A1 and Z9 dont do 8k60, or am I mistaken?


A1 tops out at 8k30 and so does the Z9 but Nikon has promised a firmware upgrade in 2022 that will increase it to 8k60.
Depending on the release schedule, Canon may be the first to market with 8k60 (with no AF) video


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## peters (Jan 20, 2022)

stevelee said:


> I don’t see how the fan could do much good without bringing in outside air.


But not INSIDE THE CAMERA. 
The fan is just cooling a copper plate which is on the backsite of the camera. 
The R5C is probably just as weather sealed as the R5


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## sergeyross (Jan 20, 2022)

Respinder said:


> given my style of run-and-gun videography + traditional photography, I'll need something with IBIS.


Exactly the same use case for me.


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## Refraction (Jan 20, 2022)

LukasS said:


> Actually it takes ~5 sec:
> 
> 
> 
> as shown here.


When shooting weddings, waiting 5 seconds to go from one to the other is not an option. Its a lifetime.


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## peters (Jan 20, 2022)

Refraction said:


> When shooting weddings, waiting 5 seconds to go from one to the other is not an option. Its a lifetime.


I dont think its actualy taking this long. Booting into any mode only takes less than one second. 
I think it only took so long in his video, because he had the sensor cleanup at shutdown set to ON. 
If you shoot a wedding, you can leave this feature off, and I guess you can switch much much faster


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 20, 2022)

Refraction said:


> When shooting weddings, waiting 5 seconds to go from one to the other is not an option. Its a lifetime.


When shooting weddings, one would hopefully have more bodies than just one R5C.


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 20, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> When shooting weddings, one would hopefully have more bodies than just one R5C.


Yeah...imagine being paid what wedding photographers do and being like "sorry I can't take any photos right now because I'm videoing the procession with my ONE camera body" or "you're going to have to choose whether I set up outside the hall for posed family portraits or recording the cake cutting because I can't bounce back and forth between the two". Heck, just for stills, most wedding photographers I have seen carry 2 bodies, one with a wide and one with a telephoto.


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## Czardoom (Jan 20, 2022)

No IBIS!!! What a rip off! It's unbelievable! Sony can do it!! 

Oh wait...my lenses all have IS...and if they didn't, I can easily get lenses with IS.

But still, it's an outrage! Why can't Canon make the exact camera I want even if the majority of video pros don't want IBIS or all the other specs that I absolutely need to produce my YouTube videos!

Yeah, I'll get that perfect A1 that cost way more than it is worth and does overheat, but who cares about that stuff! 

Mommy!!! Please make Canon give me the camera I want...Please Mommy!!


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## BakaBokeh (Jan 21, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> No IBIS!!! What a rip off! It's unbelievable! Sony can do it!!
> 
> Oh wait...my lenses all have IS...and if they didn't, I can easily get lenses with IS.
> 
> ...


haha. I admit I did experience similar albeit milder rollercoaster of emotions about the IBIS. I calmed down when I realized my lenses have Optical IS. And I can use them without IBIS. R5 won't let you use OIS without IBIS.


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## entoman (Jan 21, 2022)

BakaBokeh said:


> haha. I admit I did experience similar albeit milder rollercoaster of emotions about the IBIS. I calmed down when I realized my lenses have Optical IS. And I can use them without IBIS. R5 won't let you use OIS without IBIS.


There are plenty of Canon lenses that don't have OIS, e.g. the superb EF 180mm F3.5 macro, which has no OIS equivalent in either the EF or RF range.

... and when it comes to third party lenses, there are even more that don't have OIS, including the entire range from Laowa.

So while *you* may not own or need such lenses, there are plenty of us who do, and for us, IBIS is extremely valuable.


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## BakaBokeh (Jan 21, 2022)

entoman said:


> There are plenty of Canon lenses that don't have OIS, e.g. the superb EF 180mm F3.5 macro, which has no OIS equivalent in either the EF or RF range.
> 
> ... and when it comes to third party lenses, there are even more that don't have OIS, including the entire range from Laowa.
> 
> So while *you* may not own or need such lenses, there are plenty of us who do, and for us, IBIS is extremely valuable.


My current verdict on IBIS and it's lack thereof in the R5C is that I'm okay, actually fine without it. Current verdict, because these are based on claims, and have yet to validate them myself. It all stems from whether you plan to use this for video or photography, and if your use case is hybrid... which way do you skew? If you are only photo, or primarily photography with a little video, the R5C is not for you. Because the omission of the IBIS does indeed cripple the capabilities as a stills camera. The ability to shoot at lower shutter speeds and lower iso because the IBIS is taking care of the camera shake is incredibly invaluable. I've noticed many more sharper photos because of IBIS. 

If you primarily plan to shoot video, which is what the R5C is aimed for, then the IBIS omission is acceptable and even preferred for several cases. IBIS contributes warping and wobbling at corners on ultra-wides. I've heard professional users say they prefer the permanently set sensor than even IBIS equipped cameras that can "disable" IBIS, because even when disabled, the sensor is never perfectly locked in place as say a sensor without IBIS. Mounted to external stabilization systems like gimbals and even other cases mounting to FPV drones and car mounts, the preferred method is no IBIS at all. As the IBIS will fight and introduce unwanted artifacts.

An official Canon source also has said IBIS was also removed to help eliminate the overheating. Initially I did not believe this, but this is from an official canon source. I believe the absolute non-starter for the R5C was a camera that had overheating issues or could not run unlimited video. If IBIS had to go to make that work, that was a tough but logical decision to make.

Lastly, removal of IBIS doesn't mean the camera doesn't have any stabilization at all. It still has a couple levels of Electronic Image Stabilization that work well and have seen some pretty impressive demonstrations. In fact, using RF lenses improves the performance on the EIS. It does work in conjunction with the OIS equipped lenses, and I assume improvement on non-OIS lenses similar to how the IBIS would talk to the OIS in the R5. It does introduce levels of crop, but each user has to decide if that's a dealbreaker for themselves. For me, it's not. 

The only thing is that while the EIS can be an acceptable substitute for IBIS when shooting video, I do not think it will work as a substitute for the R5's IBIS when used for photography in the case I mentioned earlier. This is why I say, it really depends on if you plan to use this for video or photography. If video is your primary use case, the R5C is a no brainer even without IBIS. If you plan to shoot a lot of handheld photography at lower shutter speeds (low light) more so than video, stick with the R5.


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## Nathan Phillips (Jan 21, 2022)

Only issues I see is how slow it is to switch menus and maybe stabilization.

At least give us full menu (include video) like the R5 in the Photo Mode Dial and then the Cinema Menu with the Video Dial. This will give two options of video. Gives you back the autofocus the R5 has and then allows you to get fast pace photo/video work.

Photo Mode: R5 menu with both photo and video
Video Mode: R5C/C70 Menu 

Then for stabilization, give us a super 35 or super 16 advanced stabilization like the C70 has.


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## perplex1 (Jan 21, 2022)

Nathan Phillips said:


> Then for stabilization, give us a super 35 or super 16 advanced stabilization like the C70 has.


it has EIS @ 1.1 and advanced @ 1.4 crop.


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## dilbert (Jan 21, 2022)

Respinder said:


> And I have a much greater appreciation for what Canon has done in creating two independent video and photo environments - I do believe this is the way.



This is the way.


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## dilbert (Jan 21, 2022)

BakaBokeh said:


> My current verdict on IBIS and it's lack thereof in the R5C is that I'm okay, actually fine without it. Current verdict, because these are based on claims, and have yet to validate them myself. It all stems from whether you plan to use this for video or photography, and if your use case is hybrid...



If anyone says they want to buy the R5C for the primary use in stills photography then mark that comment down to them being a troll of sorts. A person serious about stills photography just wouldn't do it.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 21, 2022)

cayenne said:


> From what I understand, a fan does NOT pre-suppose that it is not weather sealed?
> 
> Did the R5C specs say if it has weather sealing or not?
> I missed that part.
> ...


see the CVP video. he says it's still weather sealed even with the fan. his video is the most thorough of all the videos so far.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 21, 2022)

perplex1 said:


> VERY dissapointed of the weird ass DPAF II in stills mode, and DPAF I in video mode. Why canon, for what? Its almost like you went out your way to do that to us.albeit, i don't know how that will translate in the real world. But it seems like an unecessary situation here



Also, the different AF has been debunked. I bet you watched that stupid MonkeyPixels video where the guy didn't even have a R5C. 

If you look at the Canon USA site under specifications, for the R5, it says "Dual Pixel CMOS AF" under the photo section. There is no I or II. Under the video section, it also says "Dual Pixel CMOS AF".

So for the R5C, on the US site, under the photo section, it says "Dual Pixel CMOS AF II". Under the video section, it says "Dual Pixel CMOS AF". So if you compare the US sites, it appears the R5C is actually better than the R5 (when it's not).

On the Europe site, for the R5C, it says "Dual Pixel CMOS AF II" for photo and "Dual Pixel CMOS AF with Eye AF and EOS iTR AF X" for video.

On the Europe site for the R5, under the photo it say s"Dual Pixel CMOS AF II" but under the video section it says "Dual Pixel CMOS AF with Eye/Face Detection and Animal Tracking AF, Movie Servo AF Manual".

So both are the same!!! The R5 and R5C have the same system.









EOS R5 Body


High Image Quality featuring a New 45 Megapixel Full-frame CMOS Sensor. DIGIC X Image Processor with an ISO range of 100-51200; Expandable to 102400*1. High-Speed Continuous Shooting of up to 12 fps with Mechanical Shutter and up to 20 fps Electronic (Silent) Shutter. Dual Pixel CMOS AF II...




www.usa.canon.com










Shop Canon Cameras, DSLR Cameras | Canon U.S.A, Inc.


Shop our selection of Cameras, . Explore specs, colors, and other features from Canon U.S.A., Inc. to find the right product for your n




www.usa.canon.com










Canon EOS R5 Specifications and Features - - Canon Europe


Canon EOS R5 specifications and key features in detail.




www.canon-europe.com










Canon EOS R5 C specifications and key features in detail - Canon Europe


The ultra-compact hybrid cinema camera with 8K up to 30 fps and VR capabilities




www.canon-europe.com


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## landon (Jan 21, 2022)

Hopefully some company comes up with a neat external battery power solution, in the size of the Samsung T1/T5.


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## perplex1 (Jan 21, 2022)

dirtyvu said:


> Also, the different AF has been debunked. I bet you watched that stupid MonkeyPixels video where the guy didn't even have a R5C.
> 
> If you look at the Canon USA site under specifications, for the R5, it says "Dual Pixel CMOS AF" under the photo section. There is no I or II. Under the video section, it also says "Dual Pixel CMOS AF".
> 
> ...


lol um no dude. I went by the actual canon engineer's on B&H's live Q&A with them. listen and weep: (timestamped @ 32:19, but he goes on @ 33:00 to say how its just like the c70 or c300mkii's AF for video))


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## adigoks (Jan 21, 2022)

dirtyvu said:


> Also, the different AF has been debunked. I bet you watched that stupid MonkeyPixels video where the guy didn't even have a R5C.
> 
> If you look at the Canon USA site under specifications, for the R5, it says "Dual Pixel CMOS AF" under the photo section. There is no I or II. Under the video section, it also says "Dual Pixel CMOS AF".
> 
> ...


same hardware. but different algorithm in different OS. i will argue that R5C will have better AF than C70 in video mode. althogh the AF behavior may differ between R5 & R5C in video mode. which is better ? im not sure just yet. the only reviews that i know doing preliminary AF test is CVP. in their test, they feel R5C is perform a bit worse than the r5.


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## CrPr (Jan 21, 2022)

BakaBokeh said:


> My current verdict on IBIS and it's lack thereof in the R5C is that I'm okay, actually fine without it. Current verdict, because these are based on claims, and have yet to validate them myself. It all stems from whether you plan to use this for video or photography, and if your use case is hybrid... which way do you skew? If you are only photo, or primarily photography with a little video, the R5C is not for you. Because the omission of the IBIS does indeed cripple the capabilities as a stills camera. The ability to shoot at lower shutter speeds and lower iso because the IBIS is taking care of the camera shake is incredibly invaluable. I've noticed many more sharper photos because of IBIS.
> 
> If you primarily plan to shoot video, which is what the R5C is aimed for, then the IBIS omission is acceptable and even preferred for several cases. IBIS contributes warping and wobbling at corners on ultra-wides. I've heard professional users say they prefer the permanently set sensor than even IBIS equipped cameras that can "disable" IBIS, because even when disabled, the sensor is never perfectly locked in place as say a sensor without IBIS. Mounted to external stabilization systems like gimbals and even other cases mounting to FPV drones and car mounts, the preferred method is no IBIS at all. As the IBIS will fight and introduce unwanted artifacts.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with you. As an 80% stills shooter I also prefer my R5 with IBIS over the new R5c. In this context I want to mention one caveat using IBIS in stills: I observed blurred corners in water-landscape pics shot free hand with a EF 16-35 f4 at 16 mm plus 6stop ND filter (f 10, about 1/4 sec. shutter speed). In the mid parts these pics are tack sharp thanks IBIS, but the corners are more than soft. I never observed this phenomen using this superb lens without such filters and shorter shutter speeds and IBIS. Therefore, a tripod will provide better results in such situations.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 21, 2022)

perplex1 said:


> lol um no dude. I went by the actual canon engineer's on B&H's live Q&A with them. listen and weep: (timestamped @ 32:19, but he goes on @ 33:00 to say how its just like the c70 or c300mkii's AF for video))


may be true. but the guy is not an engineer. he is a spokesperson. his title is officially "senior product specialist". and we have all known spokespeople to misspeak. we'll have to wait and see something official. if true, then it's disappointing.


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## perplex1 (Jan 21, 2022)

dirtyvu said:


> may be true. but the guy is not an engineer. he is a spokesperson. his title is officially "senior product specialist". and we have all known spokespeople to misspeak. we'll have to wait and see something official. if true, then it's disappointing.


yea i also googled his name, but he mentioned on Adorama's R5C live Q&A that he talks with the engineers all the time. And "senior product specialist" is not a marketing role like a spokesperson, it is pretty much what it is - a product specialist -- meaning if he's assigned to handle Q&A's for the R5C, he has in depth hands on knowledge of the product. Also the fact that there are other canon specialists, and technical advisors on these calls and do not correct him. I agree with you, it is dissapointing.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 21, 2022)

As I’ve said, video is not my thing but I get that people are disappointed the R5C video uses DPAF instead of DPAF II. Has anyone considered the possibility that DPAF II has optimizations designed for still photography that could be detrimental for video AF?

My R3 (and presumably the R5) has Servo AF for stills and Movie Servo AF for video, with separate settings. What if Movie Servo AF is actually DPAF (not II)? I’m sure Canon wouldn’t feel the need to state that, if it were true.

No idea if this is what’s going on, just suggesting an alternate explanation. Newer isn’t always better for all applications. On my R3 with my EF 600/4 II, the EF 2xIII TC is sharper than the RF 2x, and the latter has noticeable barrel distortion.


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## scyrene (Jan 21, 2022)

entoman said:


> There are plenty of Canon lenses that don't have OIS, e.g. the superb EF 180mm F3.5 macro, which has no OIS equivalent in either the EF or RF range.
> 
> ... and when it comes to third party lenses, there are even more that don't have OIS, including the entire range from Laowa.
> 
> So while *you* may not own or need such lenses, there are plenty of us who do, and for us, IBIS is extremely valuable.


And for those people there are the R6, R5, and R3.

Incidentally, and a genuine query: how well does IBIS stabilise the 180L? I have the Sigma equivalent with IS and wouldn't want an unstabilised version.


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## DBounce (Jan 21, 2022)

peters said:


> Both, A1 and Z9 dont do 8k60, or am I mistaken?
> Also the Z9 is much bigger, so its easier to put in a larger heatsink.
> The A1 can overheat as far as I heard, but I am not sure. Its certainly an impressive camera. But than again, no 8k60, and the 4k120 is not oversampled from 8k (which is a huge feature in the R5C in my opinion).
> 
> ...


The Nikon Z9 is getting 8K 60p via firmware update according to Nikon. Still has IBIS… no fan or heatsink. Amazing battery life.

Imo the R3 offers a better balance. A brand new modern sensor. Plenty of speed, good resolution, and great video. All without any issues with overheating.., which I can confirm from owning and shooting with one since release. Awesome battery life. Files that are workable in post. Best in class ISO performance. Improved dynamic range. No holes in the body or noisy fans. When the R1 is released, it will inherit the sensor tech from the R3… not the older tech from the R5/R5C.


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 21, 2022)

scyrene said:


> And for those people there are the R6, R5, and R3.
> 
> Incidentally, and a genuine query: how well does IBIS stabilise the 180L? I have the Sigma equivalent with IS and wouldn't want an unstabilised version.


The Macro 180 L was always a lens I loved on my 5D MK III & 5DsR, but it became my favorite lens on my R6. I also use a ton of FD glass on my R6 that get incredible results with IBIS. Some pretty long manual lenses too. Helped a lot with the FD 800mm L propped up on a wobbly fence. I got some fun hand held shots with the FD 35mm Tilt Shift too. There are plenty if times IBIS is just really fun to have.

That said, very much a photography feature for the most part. Can cause weird stuff in video. Would have been cool if they had IBIS & the regular video features from the R5 in the R5C in the photo mode, an OG R5 mode if you will, and you flip the switch and it disengages IBIS in cinema mode. I imagine they had to lock the sensor down to deal with the heat displacement though in 8k, or at least that was the cheaper & most efficient way to do it. It would probably have cost a thousand more to make it happen, and that’s getting out of the price point of their target audience.

Still, IBIS be fun a lot of times on the photo side.


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## Nathan Phillips (Jan 21, 2022)

perplex1 said:


> it has EIS @ 1.1 and advanced @ 1.4 crop.


Is that what the C70 has in super 16 mode? Works extremely well.


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## CanonGrunt (Jan 21, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> As I’ve said, video is not my thing but I get that people are disappointed the R5C video uses DPAF instead of DPAF II. Has anyone considered the possibility that DPAF II has optimizations designed for still photography that could be detrimental for video AF?
> 
> My R3 (and presumably the R5) has Servo AF for stills and Movie Servo AF for video, with separate settings. What if Movie Servo AF is actually DPAF (not II)? I’m sure Canon wouldn’t feel the need to state that, if it were true.
> 
> No idea if this is what’s going on, just suggesting an alternate explanation. Newer isn’t always better for all applications. On my R3 with my EF 600/4 II, the EF 2xIII TC is sharper than the RF 2x, and the latter has noticeable barrel distortion.


I’ve definitely been wondering about this. I’m betting your right that it is not optimized for the cinema OS.

The cinema department does tend to listen to complaints more than the stills department at canon, especially since they debut new cameras far less frequently. Quite a few features have been added in the cinema line via firmware updates. I’m hoping that enough requests for eye AF, and Animal AF will lead to a cinema version of DPAF 2 ending up in the R5C, C70, and C300 III & C500 II via firmware updates. But everyone that owns a canon cinema camera needs to request those features.


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## entoman (Jan 21, 2022)

BakaBokeh said:


> If video is your primary use case, the R5C is a no brainer even without IBIS. If you plan to shoot a lot of handheld photography at lower shutter speeds (low light) more so than video, stick with the R5.


I agree. If I had any intention of getting seriously into video, as a Canon user, I'd probably go for the R5C. But I'm purely a stills photographer, so I'm very happy with my R5, which is I think the best camera in Canon's stable for my wildlife, landscape and macro photography.

But none of this gets away from the fact that there are many users (e.g. wedding, event and advertising photographers/videographers) for whom it's highly desirable for a camera to be equally competent at video and stills.

And the questions still remains - if Nikon Z9 and Sony A1 can shoot continuous 8K without needing a fan, why couldn't Canon? Arguably, the Nikon doesn't need a fan simply because the larger body dissipates heat more efficiently, but the Sony is even smaller than the R5C, yet manages without a fan.

And if Sony and Nikon can do hi-end pro video work without compromising stabilisation for stills photographers, why can't Canon?

I think the truth is that Canon could easily have kept IBIS in the R5C, but chose to omit it for product segmentation and cost-reduction purposes. As a result they have produced a great hybrid camera at a price that undercuts their main competitor Sony. But in my eyes the Nikon Z9 looks a better tool, whether for stills, video or hybrid users - and it costs about the same as the R5C.


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## entoman (Jan 21, 2022)

scyrene said:


> how well does IBIS stabilise the 180L? I have the Sigma equivalent with IS and wouldn't want an unstabilised version.


When using previous firmware in the R5, I found it difficult to get sharp hand-held shots with the Canon EF 180mm F3.5 macro. So much so that I rarely used it, despite it having fabulous bokeh and being the ideal focal length for stalking insects and small reptiles. Since upgrading to firmware 1.5.0 I've noticed a significant improvement - I can now get sharp hand-held macro shots at 1/125 or even 1/60, which for me is almost a 2 stop improvement.

I don't know how the firmware and IBIS would interact with the Sigma (and Tamron) 180mm macros, but my experience with a Sigma 150mm macro was unsatisfying (too heavy, AF too slow and indecisive, prone to flare) hence buying the Canon 180mm. But I know other photographers (with steadier hands than me) who are very happy with the Sigma and Tamron macros.


----------



## Stig Nygaard (Jan 21, 2022)




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## CanonGrunt (Jan 21, 2022)

Stig Nygaard said:


>


Yeah this is a really good breakdown of why this camera is what it is, what’s there, and what’s not.


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## bgoyette (Jan 21, 2022)

cayenne said:


> It's not so much a lack of skills.
> It is that you get used to IBIS being able to extend you ability to get shots you really cannot get without it.
> 
> It's almost like getting a faster lens in the sense that you can stretch the physical capabilities of your equipment that little bit more with IBIS and get the shot you just really cannot get without it.
> ...


This I agree with...as a proud owner of a GFX100, coming from a Hasselblad H5d...I can say my approach to medium format is completely different today than it was a few years ago, largely because of that systems IBIS...being able to handhold a MF 100mp camera at 1/5 of a second almost feels like cheating...but it's possible and I do it more often than I should. That said...the big red C on this camera tells you this is a Cine product first and a still camera second, just like the R5 was a still camera first and a cine product second. None of the Cine products have IBIS...and there is a good reason for it...heat management is a higher priority, and frankly...most video professionals don't "like" IBIS...(it warps images that can be stabilized in lens or via stabilizer, and when it reaches the end of it's range it tends to "snap" back...ruining motion shots in ways that don't affect still shots. )


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## dirtyvu (Jan 21, 2022)

perplex1 said:


> yea i also googled his name, but he mentioned on Adorama's R5C live Q&A that he talks with the engineers all the time. And "senior product specialist" is not a marketing role like a spokesperson, it is pretty much what it is - a product specialist -- meaning if he's assigned to handle Q&A's for the R5C, he has in depth hands on knowledge of the product. Also the fact that there are other canon specialists, and technical advisors on these calls and do not correct him. I agree with you, it is dissapointing.


Well in the worst case, it has the cinema feature that the r5 doesn't have and that is face only (where if the person leaves the frame, it doesn't refocus). 

I don't know about the specialist thing. I watched another video with another specialist and he seems like marketing.


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## Stig Nygaard (Jan 21, 2022)

Another Q&A from ProAV:


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## unfocused (Jan 21, 2022)

entoman said:


> ...one of the fundamental advantages of MILCs is IBIS. Omitting it can only be for product segmentation and cost reducing purposes...





entoman said:


> ...I think the truth is that Canon could easily have kept IBIS in the R5C, but chose to omit it for product segmentation and cost-reduction purposes...



You've make this same claim at least twice now. Both times without a shred of evidence to support it. 

What logical product segmentation purpose would it serve? Why would Canon need to segment the R5C from the R5 by not including in-camera stabilization? If someone wants professional Cinema features *and* stabilization, then not including IBIS is going to what...drive buyers to the less expensive R5? What advantage accrues to Canon to leave it off? So they can sell a less expensive model? That makes zero sense. 

And, what does cost reduction even mean in this case? If it means including both without compromising the video features of the R5C would have raised the cost of the camera to a level that was prohibitive and priced the body out of the market, well...okay I imagine that is a possible explanation. But, how can one criticize them for that without knowing what the added cost would have been? Unless you are not disclosing your expert sources, you have zero information to base your claims on. 

Top all this off with the comments from many video-centric users that they *don't want* IBIS in the camera makes your repeating the same unsubstantiated claims only seem more and more well...unsubstantiated.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 21, 2022)

It’s funny when Panasonic did the same thing to the GH5 and GH5S everybody thought it was fantastic that they dropped the internal IS, mind you they did do a very clever implementation of different aspect ratios. 

But when others do it it is a feature, when Canon do it it is crippling. This place has become a bore.


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## dxwmedia (Jan 21, 2022)

entoman said:


> And the questions still remains - if Nikon Z9 and Sony A1 can shoot continuous 8K without needing a fan, why couldn't Canon? Arguably, the Nikon doesn't need a fan simply because the larger body dissipates heat more efficiently, but the Sony is even smaller than the R5C, yet manages without a fan.


The Sony A1 Records 8K at 4:2:0, It is also limited to 400mbps which keeps the heat build-up down. The R5 HEVC is at 1300mpbs @ 4:2:2, more than triple the A1 and that's not even talking about the RAW bitrates. That's why the A1 able to record to USH II cards cause it's not pumping out that much data compared to the R5/R5C. Plus it's not doing any internal raw or 8K external raw so the A1 is just not as demanding as the R5/R5C. You need to have the proper context when comparing different cameras. 

The cost is the main issue with the A1, I don't think it's $2600 better than the R5 even with its limitations and definitely not $2000 better than the R5C. Also not $1000 better than the Z9. 

The Nikon Z9 Max HEVC bitrate in 8K is 400mbps as well plus it has a bigger body so it can disperse that heat easily and shoot raw & Prores. I'm curious to see how well the Nikon 8K Raw format compares to Canon Raw & BRAW.


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## Quackator (Jan 21, 2022)

tomislavmoze said:


> Well Sony managed to pull it in a smaller body without a ventilation system in the A1 so it is obvious that is possible.


Sony does that at a much smaller data rate and reduced bit depth.


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## LukasS (Jan 21, 2022)

Refraction said:


> When shooting weddings, waiting 5 seconds to go from one to the other is not an option. Its a lifetime.


While I'm not pro wedding photographer, I would never go to a shoot like this with one body, and never did. Always two bodies and different lenses.

Imaging a world where R5C switches between both modes almost instantly - doesn't solve practical issues with such a workflow - ie. which mode you last used, will it work for current shot you want to record, switching settings to desired one (even with presets) will take time. 

This isn't a camera that was meant to give you full immediate access to all functionality (photo and video), nor do I see any practical application to use it like that.


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## entoman (Jan 21, 2022)

unfocused said:


> You've make this same claim at least twice now. Both times without a shred of evidence to support it.
> 
> What logical product segmentation purpose would it serve? Why would Canon need to segment the R5C from the R5 by not including in-camera stabilization? If someone wants professional Cinema features *and* stabilization, then not including IBIS is going to what...drive buyers to the less expensive R5? What advantage accrues to Canon to leave it off? So they can sell a less expensive model? That makes zero sense.
> 
> ...


Well, my "unsubstantiated claim" is of course just that - my personal opinion, I'm not stating it as fact 

Much of what you've written actually appears to be in agreement with what I opined, so perhaps we are misunderstanding each other?

Strong product segmentation has long been a feature that Canon is particularly noted for. The R5, R5C, R3 and Cinema cameras e.g. all have very distinct identities and are aimed at different different user groups. If Canon had put IBIS *and* a fan in the R5C, it would IMO have been a "better" camera (i.e. more versatile, as it would be equally suitable for stills and video)... and more competitive with the Z9 and A1.

But, it would probably have taken longer to design, been more complex to manufacture, and more expensive to produce and sell. They seem to have made an advance decision to keep the price well below that of the competing Sony a1, and omitting IBIS probably helped achieve that requirement. When producing variants and upgrades, Canon (and Nikon, Sony) often "sacrifice" some features on existing models, while adding other features, in order to more strongly differentiate models, and keep the costs competitive. Some call it "crippling" but in reality it's just clever design choices and clever marketing.

The "problem", as I see it, is that by omitting IBIS and including a fan, on one hand they are satisfying the serious videographers, but on the other hand they are disappointing those who shoot roughly 50/50 stills and video. Unlike Sony and Nikon, who pour every conceivable feature available to them into their cameras - hence the A1 and Z9, both of which have IBIS *and* very efficient but non-fan cooling systems, making them both extremely good tools for both 8K video *and* stills.


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## entoman (Jan 22, 2022)

dxwmedia said:


> The Sony A1 Records 8K at 4:2:0, It is also limited to 400mbps which keeps the heat build-up down. The R5 HEVC is at 1300mpbs @ 4:2:2, more than triple the A1 and that's not even talking about the RAW bitrates. That's why the A1 able to record to USH II cards cause it's not pumping out that much data compared to the R5/R5C. Plus it's not doing any internal raw or 8K external raw so the A1 is just not as demanding as the R5/R5C. You need to have the proper context when comparing different cameras.
> 
> The cost is the main issue with the A1, I don't think it's $2600 better than the R5 even with its limitations and definitely not $2000 better than the R5C. Also not $1000 better than the Z9.
> 
> The Nikon Z9 Max HEVC bitrate in 8K is 400mbps as well plus it has a bigger body so it can disperse that heat easily and shoot raw & Prores. I'm curious to see how well the Nikon 8K Raw format compares to Canon Raw & BRAW.


I'm a stills shooter, so I bow to your superior knowledge about video specifications and usability.

It would be interesting to know the logical processes of people when weighing up the pros and cons of the Sony A1, Nikon Z9 and Canon R5C. I suspect decisions are made primarily on the basis of compatibility with their existing lens systems. Few will actually switch brands, even if they believe doing so would be advantageous. I also wonder how the ratio of video:stills usage varies between people buying each of these cameras.

I agree about the excessive cost of the Sony A1, but at the time it was launched, it was targeting the Canon 1DXiii and Nikon D6 market, and the price was set accordingly. Now that Nikon and Canon have launched their recent models, I would expect the price of the A1 to drop quite considerably. In the UK, the R5 is currently £4300 and the Z9 is £5300. A more realistic price for the A1 would I think be around £4800.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 22, 2022)

LukasS said:


> While I'm not pro wedding photographer, I would never go to a shoot like this with one body, and never did. Always two bodies and different lenses.
> 
> Imaging a world where R5C switches between both modes almost instantly - doesn't solve practical issues with such a workflow - ie. which mode you last used, will it work for current shot you want to record, switching settings to desired one (even with presets) will take time.
> 
> This isn't a camera that was meant to give you full immediate access to all functionality (photo and video), nor do I see any practical application to use it like that.


As much as people talk about instantly flipping between photos and video in the moment, from my own experience at events, it kind of sucks. Because you often end up in the wrong mode at the wrong time. I recently did a birthday party with the chaos of adults and kids mixed together in a hectic environment. And for the perfect moments, you would like to both take photos and video simultaneously. Actually, for those moments, it would be great to be able to take photos while recording video. You can do this with smartphones.

And that's why I carry 2 bodies. If I'm doing photos, I'll have a friend do video. Or vice versa. The unfortunate thing with carrying 2 bodies is that unless you have a huge budget for everything, one body will often be much better than the other body. I wish I had 2 R5 cams but I don't.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 22, 2022)

adigoks said:


> same hardware. but different algorithm in different OS. i will argue that R5C will have better AF than C70 in video mode. althogh the AF behavior may differ between R5 & R5C in video mode. which is better ? im not sure just yet. the only reviews that i know doing preliminary AF test is CVP. in their test, they feel R5C is perform a bit worse than the r5.



I'll watch the CVP video again because I didn't catch the AF comparison between R5 and R5C.

but at the end around the 44 min mark, he says that the R5C outclasses the C70 in AF.


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## TravelerNick (Jan 22, 2022)

entoman said:


> I'm a stills shooter, so I bow to your superior knowledge about video specifications and usability.
> 
> It would be interesting to know the logical processes of people when weighing up the pros and cons of the Sony A1, Nikon Z9 and Canon R5C.



I doubt very many people will be comparing those three.

I know Sony wants people to class the A1 with the other pro models but the impression I get is most of the pros looking at it are either already Sony users or are pairing it with Sony FX video cameras.

The R5C has some serious limits related to the batteries and it seems the processor. Maybe it makes sense for a mainly video shooter. But I doubt you'll see it being used by the average PJ shooter or any of the other markets that used to be mostly stills. 

The Z9 doesn't seem to have any holes right now. It's cheaper than the A1. The R5C seems you really should budget to add at least the grip and I assume a spare battery. Pushing it pretty close to the Z9. But we don't know what NRaw will be like. They haven't really told us what the other video upgrades are supposed to be. The rumours sound good but we won't know until the firmware shows up. The Z9 is really aimed at what they think the R1 will be. Some of the features will be very useful for hybrid shooting. Grabbing 8K stills for example or the 120 FPS JPG. You'd expect the R1 to at least match those.


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## TravelerNick (Jan 22, 2022)

entoman said:


> The "problem", as I see it, is that by omitting IBIS and including a fan, on one hand they are satisfying the serious videographers, but on the other hand they are disappointing those who shoot roughly 50/50 stills and video. Unlike Sony and Nikon, who pour every conceivable feature available to them into their cameras - hence the A1 and Z9, both of which have IBIS *and* very efficient but non-fan cooling systems, making them both extremely good tools for both 8K video *and* stills.



If you believe that explain the card choice in the A1? Explain the lack of internal raw video. Explain the lack of DCI.


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## TravelerNick (Jan 22, 2022)

dxwmedia said:


> The Nikon Z9 Max HEVC bitrate in 8K is 400mbps as well plus it has a bigger body so it can disperse that heat easily and shoot raw & Prores. I'm curious to see how well the Nikon 8K Raw format compares to Canon Raw & BRAW.



Converting to HEVC requires more processing power . Likely generating more heat. It saves on card space and bandwidth. In the CineD video the Canon rep stated something like 8K HEVC was left off the R5C because the camera couldn't handle the extra requirements.


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## dtaylor (Jan 22, 2022)

TravelerNick said:


> If you believe that explain the card choice in the A1? Explain the lack of internal raw video. Explain the lack of DCI.


Some people are going to believe "cripple hammer" no matter what. It's obvious the R5/R5C sensor is not as power efficient as Sony's latest sensor, probably not even as power efficient as the R3 sensor, but it ticks all the other needed boxes (i.e. FF DPAF 8k with the readout speeds to support 60p and in 4k 120p). The R5C is pushing much higher data rates, and that's before accounting for DPAF which shoves the real, internal readout rate/processing much higher. And despite all of this, an R5C with a larger body and a heatsink might not have needed a fan and might have even had IBIS *if* Canon had limited the video...or shall I say crippled it?...like the A1 and Z9.

The people complaining about the R5C don't want a cinema camera, they want an R5 with improved video thermal limits. It was shown in tear downs that the R5's internals weren't as efficient as they could have been for heat transfer. Maybe Canon should have done an R5P release next to the R5C, replacing the original R5. The R5P could be the R5 with some physical thermal improvements for longer record times. But that's not really their management/production style, and they probably are having trouble making enough R5's as is, despite the thermal limits in video. I doubt they see much of a need to sink the costs into a revision before they do an R5 mark II. The people who can't suffer the thermal limits likely have external recorders, a 2nd body, or an R3.

I know there's someone out there with a legitimate use case where they need to carry one body, with IBIS for stills, without extra junk (ext recorder) and they want it to be an R5, but they run into thermal limits on the video side. And that does suck. Canon should have paid more attention to main board layout and heat sinks in the original R5 and R6 designs. But I doubt that was "cripple hammer", just engineers rushing to meet a deadline as evidence by beta firmware 1.0 which Canon quickly replaced.


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## entoman (Jan 22, 2022)

TravelerNick said:


> If you believe that explain the card choice in the A1? Explain the lack of internal raw video. Explain the lack of DCI.


R5C takes CFExpress-B and the latest fastest SD cards.
A1 takes CFExpress-A and latest fastest SD cards.
Z9 takes 2 CFExpress-B cards.

Doesn't that make the A1 and R5C equals in terms of recording media?

Z9 leads as both slots take the fastest currently available cards AFAIK.

Is internal RAW video really *that* important to the professional videographer, who will usually have the camera on a rig anyway?

Remember I'm not a video expert, so please correct me if I'm making the wrong assumptions... There are probably a large number of potential purchasers who are not yet video experts, but have aspirations to be, so anything that clears up misconceptions is valuable.


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## entoman (Jan 22, 2022)

TravelerNick said:


> The Z9 doesn't seem to have any holes right now. It's cheaper than the A1. The R5C seems you really should budget to add at least the grip and I assume a spare battery. Pushing it pretty close to the Z9. But we don't know what NRaw will be like. They haven't really told us what the other video upgrades are supposed to be. The rumours sound good but we won't know until the firmware shows up. The Z9 is really aimed at what they think the R1 will be. Some of the features will be very useful for hybrid shooting. Grabbing 8K stills for example or the 120 FPS JPG. You'd expect the R1 to at least match those.


Yes, I'd expect the R1 to match or beat both the A1 and Z9 in most regards, although it would surprise me if it had more than 40MP. They could give it "just" 6K video - possibly as a compromise to enable ultra-fast burst speeds. Just speculating, of course.

The price will be very interesting - I'd guess around £5500 - they have to be careful to keep the specification fairly competitive, but also have to keep it competitive in price with the Z9. If not, I think some will defect to Nikon. I personally prefer some of the Nikon Z lenses to their nearest equivalents from Canon RF, for stills work. It's a close contest and could go either way, for people willing to switch systems one way or the other.


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## stevelee (Jan 22, 2022)

dirtyvu said:


> As much as people talk about instantly flipping between photos and video in the moment, from my own experience at events, it kind of sucks. Because you often end up in the wrong mode at the wrong time. I recently did a birthday party with the chaos of adults and kids mixed together in a hectic environment. And for the perfect moments, you would like to both take photos and video simultaneously. Actually, for those moments, it would be great to be able to take photos while recording video. You can do this with smartphones.
> 
> And that's why I carry 2 bodies. If I'm doing photos, I'll have a friend do video. Or vice versa. The unfortunate thing with carrying 2 bodies is that unless you have a huge budget for everything, one body will often be much better than the other body. I wish I had 2 R5 cams but I don't.


I don’t shoot much video, so I don’t recall details. At least one camera I own allows you to take stills while shooting video. That might be the T3i. i don’t think it is true of my 6D2.


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## Chig (Jan 23, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Thanks for being a voice of reason in a sea of drama queens.
> 
> Amused by your comment about needing a lot of batteries. One of the first things I wondered about was what the battery life was going to be on this baby, especially since the battery has to run a fan and power accessories through the new hotshoe. I doubt if the external grip will fit the new design and it may not be practical even if it does.


It takes the same grip as the R5 and can be powered externally too


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## Chig (Jan 23, 2022)

CanonGrunt said:


> Really? I was hoping we’d get that over on the c70, but sadly no. Really surprised that’s it’s not in this.
> 
> Anyone know of any technical limitations as to why they would omit it from the cinema side on the R5 C?


Canon uses a different AF system for cinema because it's _better suited_ to video _ not because they can't use the stills version

The DPAF system used in their Cinema line is in no way inferior (just different) to the DPAF2 used in their stills cameras, it's optimised for Professional Cinema Production_


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## Chig (Jan 23, 2022)

vladk said:


> There is one more R5C limitation - internal battery cannot provide juice to the lens mount in its most challenging video modes. I.e. no IS or AF.
> I am curious is this resolved with add-on grip whenever we see one, or only with external power source.


The R5 grip fits but external power supply is needed for _8K/60p only_ , for all other modes including 8K/30p the internal battery is all that's needed although it won't last very long  
Also I think all cinema lenses are manual focus anyway.


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## Chig (Jan 23, 2022)

Respinder said:


> I don't need 8K video directly, but I do want the 4K HQ that comes from the 8K sensor. How long can you shoot 4K HQ for? At the R5's launch if I recall it was pretty limited number of minutes you got before the camera overheated. Has this improved?
> 
> I also heard of reports where you take a bunch of photos and then switch to video only to find that the R5 won't take any video due to overheating from the photos you've taken. Is this still an issue post firmware? Has this improved?
> 
> ...


The R5C can shoot unlimited time without overheating in all video modes including 4KHQ and if you raise your shutter speed above 1/500 you don't need ibis at all. IBIS is handy for shooting things that don't move in low light but any action photography needs high shutter speeds


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## Chig (Jan 23, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> Canon removed IBIS to cripple the R5c to protect their cine cameras which have...no IBIS?
> 
> _Canon is clearly ill-fated!_
> 
> Also: if the R5c had IBIS it still wouldn't be weather sealed with a fan. Price/sealing would still sell the R5.


Apparently the R5C has same weather sealing as the R5


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## Chig (Jan 23, 2022)

DiXi said:


> How good is the weather sealing actually?
> Any info?


Same as R5 apparently


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## unfocused (Jan 23, 2022)

Chig said:


> It takes the same grip as the R5 and can be powered externally too


That's good to know. I wonder how that grip will fit (ergonomically) on the R5 C. On the other hand, I guess the vertical controls really won't matter for video use.


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## Chig (Jan 23, 2022)

unfocused said:


> That's good to know. I wonder how that grip will fit (ergonomically) on the R5 C. On the other hand, I guess the vertical controls really won't matter for video use.


I did some video for my in-laws wedding many years ago and I automatically switched to protrait for part of it without thinking (I wasn't used to video much) which looked pretty hilarious on the play back


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 23, 2022)

Chig said:


> _The DPAF system used in their Cinema line is in no way inferior to the DPAF2 used in their stills cameras, it's optimised for Professional Cinema Production_


I’m not sure that’s true. Canon’s Rudy Winston wrote:
_Whether you’re an amateur still photographer or a one-person video production crew, focus is critical to a successful shoot. … That’s why, in 2013, Canon introduced Dual Pixel CMOS Autofocus. We believe it’s a game changer for both video and still shooters. … Dual Pixel AutoFocus first appeared in the EOS 70D. … Dual Pixel Auto Focus was later introduced to the Cinema EOS line in the C100 and C300 cameras, as well as on the 7D Mark II and several other more recent models including the EOS M5 and M6._

So, it certainly sounds like the DPAF in Cinema EOS bodies is the same DPAF on xxD and other bodies, that was introduced in 2013. That suggests it’s not specifically ‘optimized for professional cinema production’ as you stated. Has Canon stated anything that supports your statement?

Canon states:
_The latest version of this, Dual Pixel CMOS AF II, was introduced in 2020 in the Canon EOS R5 and EOS R6._

Seems to me that if there’s a MkII of DPAF, it would be an improvement over the original. Of course, as I suggested previously, those improvements may be only for still photography and may be detrimental for video AF, and Movie Servo AF in the R3, R5 and R6 may actually be the original DPAF.


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## TravelerNick (Jan 23, 2022)

entoman said:


> R5C takes CFExpress-B and the latest fastest SD cards.
> A1 takes CFExpress-A and latest fastest SD cards.
> Z9 takes 2 CFExpress-B cards.
> 
> Doesn't that make the A1 and R5C equals in terms of recording media?



Ignoring the fact the A1 costs more than the R5C type A cards max out at 160GB. That's pretty useless if you really want to record 8k. Or even really using the high FPS modes in stills. Plus they're half the speed of type B. In automotive terms it's the equivalent of putting the gas tank from a Toyota Yaris on a F150 big block V8. 





entoman said:


> Z9 leads as both slots take the fastest currently available cards AFAIK.
> 
> Is internal RAW video really *that* important to the professional videographer, who will usually have the camera on a rig anyway?



Raw has nothing to do with being on a rig. Plenty of people shoot raw stills in spite of putting the camera on a tripod. Raw video gives you some of the same advantages (and disadvantages) of raw stills. Control of WB and ISO in post.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 23, 2022)

unfocused said:


> That's good to know. I wonder how that grip will fit (ergonomically) on the R5 C. On the other hand, I guess the vertical controls really won't matter for video use.


good for if you want to make tiktok videos or IG videos


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## dirtyvu (Jan 23, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I’m not sure that’s true. Canon’s Rudy Winston wrote:
> _Whether you’re an amateur still photographer or a one-person video production crew, focus is critical to a successful shoot. … That’s why, in 2013, Canon introduced Dual Pixel CMOS Autofocus. We believe it’s a game changer for both video and still shooters. … Dual Pixel AutoFocus first appeared in the EOS 70D. … Dual Pixel Auto Focus was later introduced to the Cinema EOS line in the C100 and C300 cameras, as well as on the 7D Mark II and several other more recent models including the EOS M5 and M6._
> 
> So, it certainly sounds like the DPAF in Cinema EOS bodies is the same DPAF on xxD and other bodies, that was introduced in 2013. That suggests it’s not specifically ‘optimized for professional cinema production’ as you stated. Has Canon stated anything that supports your statement?
> ...



I remember seeing the C70 reviews and a guy mentioned how it had useful AF modes like Face Only AF where, for example, a person walk out of frame and the camera doesn't hunt and focus on the background. Something that you can do with manual focusing but is hard to do with typical camera AF. That's something the R5C has but the R5 doesn't.


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## entoman (Jan 23, 2022)

Chig said:


> Apparently the R5C has same weather sealing as the R5


Interesting point. Fitting a fan may have caused Canon to pay even *more* attention to sealing the R5C against moisture.

But dust is a different kettle of fish. The cooling fans on my PC (which is obviously always kept indoors) are always getting clogged up with caked-on dust, despite it being always in an indoor environment.

The fan on the R5C, which will probably spend most of its life being used outdoors, will clearly be exposed to a great deal more dust. It's difficult to imagine how dust can be kept away from the fan without impeding the airflow that it is designed to create. I imagine that after a few months use, the fan would get quite clogged, requiring quite regular visits to the service centre.


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## David - Sydney (Jan 23, 2022)

reef58 said:


> That is a good point, but the cinema camera have lots of programable buttons for one tough high frame rate ect.


Did you see that the Rate button can be remapped on the R5c? I wonder if it can be remapped in stills mode???


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## reef58 (Jan 23, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Did you see that the Rate button can be remapped on the R5c? I wonder if it can be remapped in stills mode???


I did not. Rejoice.


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## David - Sydney (Jan 24, 2022)

entoman said:


> R5C takes CFExpress-B and the latest fastest SD cards.
> A1 takes CFExpress-A and latest fastest SD cards.
> Z9 takes 2 CFExpress-B cards.
> 
> ...


The A1 doesn't need the fastest bandwidth/recording speeds as it is not raw. 
The R5c should be the same as the R5 in that the higher bandwith speeds will only record to the CFe card with proxies to the SD card.
I am not sure about "leadership" as it depends on whether you need to record at the higher speeds/raw or not. Note that the Ninja V+ won't record 4k120 and "only" 8k raw lite.


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## fathergll (Jan 24, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> And the price was on the low end of the predictions! For like the first time ever! Seems like a real beast of a body at that price.




I heard some insane predictions on price from some Youtube channels. Some guy was convinced Canon was going to charge $8,000.


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## cayenne (Jan 25, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> It's really not that hard. And if you're so exacting that you need unlimited 8k for long format recording, it's cheaper (and more reliable) to store the files on SSD than CF, and you're probably going to need external battery power, anyway. That's why this whining about mythical strawman hybrid shooting fantasies is ridiculous, it doesn't reflect anything someone actually does or needs to do. No one is limited by the fact that they can't hold an R5 for a full hour in a photo shooter's position with no outbound gear and get an uninterrupted 8k video...tripods or gimbals, batteries, and storage will all play a factor, at which point, the Ninja V+ is just one more thing. And having modular capabilities are a key SELLING point (not deterrence) for most actual video shooters, you can see it in the Sony ad copy as well, in addition to the hot shoe on the R3 and R5C.


It sounds like you're making excuses for Canon....and that's cool if that's what you're doing.

But with IBIS these days...its kind of an expected commodity tech in a modern camera in this price range...period.

And this would seal the deal for those wanting / needing only one camera. It was advertised to "do it all"....and it came, well....only close.


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## cayenne (Jan 25, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> No IBIS!!! What a rip off! It's unbelievable! Sony can do it!!
> 
> Oh wait...my lenses all have IS...and if they didn't, I can easily get lenses with IS.
> 
> ...


But, you forget one of the really GREAT things about mirrorless, is that with adapters, it opens up a WHOLE huge world of manual lenses, vintage lenses that can give you looks you can't get with modern ones or post really.

Those lenses, of course, don't have IS...so, IBIS is very valuable for the use of those.

cayenne


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 25, 2022)

cayenne said:


> But with IBIS these days...its kind of an expected commodity tech in a modern camera in this price range...period.


I don't agree. I guess we shall see who's correct, based on Canon's sales this year.


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## entoman (Jan 25, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> I don't agree. I guess we shall see who's correct, based on Canon's sales this year.


It all depends on whether you are viewing the R5C as a pro video tool with sub-optimal stills capability (which is what the camera is), or whether you believe the camera should reflect Canon's slightly misleading advertising that it is "ready for anything". The latter implies that the specification and performance for stills is to the same standard as for video (which it is not).

Canon themselves have said that the combination of OIS and digital stabilisation is sub-optimal for stills photography (and causes a minor crop) and that stills photographers should really be considering the R5 instead:






If you're a high end video user and *really truly need non time-limited 8K*, and are content with just OIS for stills, get the R5C.

If you're a serious stills shooter, *and* you really need the combination of IBIS and IOS for the best stabilisation for your genre of photography, or if you use non-stabilised lenses, get the R5...


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## BakaBokeh (Jan 25, 2022)

I wouldn't go so far as calling the R5C as a sub-optimal stills camera just because it doesn't have IBIS. The IBIS is great for a very unique case of low shutter speed hand-held photography. Outside of that specific case, it's just as capable otherwise. If a hybrid shooter happens to shoot video and the photography side is mainly landscapes on a tripod, or does studio work or uses strobes, IBIS usefulness diminishes and may be moot. I would not discourage them from getting an R5C if their use case doesn't need IBIS.


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## stevelee (Jan 25, 2022)

Yes, the crop is how digital stabilization works in video, whether in camera or in software on the computer. It is aligning the contents of a frame with the others, so the crop moves around. It makes no sense for still pictures that I can think of.


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## unfocused (Jan 25, 2022)

BakaBokeh said:


> I wouldn't go so far as calling the R5C as a sub-optimal stills camera just because it doesn't have IBIS. The IBIS is great for a very unique case of low shutter speed hand-held photography. Outside of that specific case, it's just as capable otherwise. If a hybrid shooter happens to shoot video and the photography side is mainly landscapes on a tripod, or does studio work or uses strobes, IBIS usefulness diminishes and may be moot. I would not discourage them from getting an R5C if their use case doesn't need IBIS.


Generally agree. I would add that unless their use case really includes a lot of high resolution video with sophisticated demands, I would not discourage anyone from getting the R5. 

As for IBIS, I would add to your comments that if people are shooting anything that moves -- birds, people, vehicles, even trees with branches and leaves -- the extraordinary stabilization of IBIS plus a stabilized lens borders on overkill in my opinion.


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## koenkooi (Jan 26, 2022)

BakaBokeh said:


> I wouldn't go so far as calling the R5C as a sub-optimal stills camera just because it doesn't have IBIS. The IBIS is great for a very unique case of low shutter speed hand-held photography. Outside of that specific case, it's just as capable otherwise. If a hybrid shooter happens to shoot video and the photography side is mainly landscapes on a tripod, or does studio work or uses strobes, IBIS usefulness diminishes and may be moot. I would not discourage them from getting an R5C if their use case doesn't need IBIS.


And this is why my control theory professor at uni would fail you instantly if you used the word 'sub-optimal' in an exam. It's a meaningless word that has a negative connotation. And you proved the original point when you said "_Outside of that specific case, it's just as capable otherwise_", which means it's below the optimum.

As people on this forum like to point out, there is no single 'best' or 'optimum' camera for everyone, so every camera is sub-optimal 

</pet peeve>


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## stevelee (Jan 26, 2022)

“Sub-optimal” is a term best saved for humorous and/or ironic purposes.


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## HurtinMinorKey (Jan 26, 2022)

I’m glad it doesn’t have IBIS, because it means I might actually receive mine within a couple months of launch.


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## entoman (Jan 26, 2022)

stevelee said:


> “Sub-optimal” is a term best saved for humorous and/or ironic purposes.


"sub-optimal" simply means "not as good as it could (or should) be" - which IMO is an accurate way to describe a camera that has taken a step backwards regarding stabilisation.

The "ready for anything" phraseology used by Canon to promote the R5C clearly implies that the camera should be "ready for any **stills** photography", as well as ready for any videography.

The R5C is likely going to be a superb tool for videographers, and a very good tool for stills photographers, but the lack of IBIS reduces its stills capabilities (at a guess, at least 1 stop less stabilisation than the "OIS with digital stabilisation", and with the penalty of minor cropping).

The IBIS + OIS stabilisation of the original R5 is class leading, and enables me to handhold as slow as 1/60 with a RF 800mm with static subjects such as perching birds. I think that's a quite amazing capability. The IBIS also means I can also handhold my non-stabilised EF 180mm F3.5 at significantly lower shutter speeds than would otherwise be possible. It's been a game-changer for me. There will be numerous other use cases where people gain significantly from having IBIS and IOS working in sync, as happens with the R5.

IMO, unless you are a really committed videographer who truly needs to shoot 8K RAW for extended interviews, the R5 is the better choice - cheaper, lighter, more compact and with better stabilisation for stills. Of course, there will be scenarios where subject movement requires a fast shutter speed and negates the advantages of IBIS, but equally there will be many scenarios where IBIS enables sharp photographs to be taken at lower ISO settings and/or slower shutter speeds.

But it's your money and your choice


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## AlanF (Jan 26, 2022)

entoman said:


> "sub-optimal" simply means "not as good as it could (or should) be" - which IMO is an accurate way to describe a camera that has taken a step backwards regarding stabilisation.
> 
> The "ready for anything" phraseology used by Canon to promote the R5C clearly implies that the camera should be "ready for any **stills** photography", as well as ready for any videography.
> 
> ...


Ken Rockwell has compared the overall IS on the R5 and the RP for the RF 800 https://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/eos-r/lenses/800mm.htm
and has concluded:

"I see only about a half stop extra improvement with the R5 even though the R5 adds in-body sensor-shift stabilization; I haven't seen the R5 IBIS to add any significant improvement to lenses that are already stabilized. The R5 is an awesome camera, but I wouldn't get one solely for the additional in-body stabilization which doesn't seem to do as much as some people hope." (click on both links to see his results on the RF 800 and other lenses.)


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## dtaylor (Jan 26, 2022)

entoman said:


> "sub-optimal" simply means "not as good as it could (or should) be" - which IMO is an accurate way to describe a camera that has taken a step backwards regarding stabilisation.


IBIS directly impacts heat dissipation. For a cinematographer having IBIS is therefore "sub-optimal."



entoman said:


> The "ready for anything" phraseology used by Canon to promote the R5C clearly implies that the camera should be "ready for any **stills** photography", as well as ready for any videography.


It is. The people complaining are making a little too much of IBIS.



entoman said:


> IMO, unless you are a really committed videographer who truly needs to shoot 8K RAW for extended interviews, the R5 is the better choice - cheaper, lighter, more compact and with better stabilisation for stills.


Exactly. The R5C is primarily for cinematographers. The R5 is primarily for photographers. But there is a great deal of capability overlap between them. And yes, the R5C is a competent stills camera. If your stills shooting consists of using Canon's stabilized RF 'holy trinity' you're not even missing out on anything. Not even weather sealing (to my earlier surprise).


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## stevelee (Jan 26, 2022)

entoman said:


> "sub-optimal" simply means "not as good as it could (or should) be"
> 
> But it's your money and your choice


None of us are as good as we could or should be. 
As for my money, neither of these cameras is on my radar as potential purchases, so that’s my choice. I shoot video very rarely, so if I had to buy one or the other, the R5 would be the obvious choice.


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## entoman (Jan 26, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Ken Rockwell has compared the overall IS on the R5 and the RP for the RF 800 https://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/eos-r/lenses/800mm.htm
> and has concluded:
> 
> "I see only about a half stop extra improvement with the R5 even though the R5 adds in-body sensor-shift stabilization; I haven't seen the R5 IBIS to add any significant improvement to lenses that are already stabilized. The R5 is an awesome camera, but I wouldn't get one solely for the additional in-body stabilization which doesn't seem to do as much as some people hope." (click on both links to see his results on the RF 800 and other lenses.)


Yes, I've seen that, and his findings with the 800mm on the R5 concur roughly with mine - I can manage sharp shots at 1/60, he can manage sharp shots at a crazy 1/30, which can probably be explained by him simply having steadier hands.

He finds about a one stop difference between using the combined IBIS and OIS of the R5 and the OIS-only of the RP. I don't have an RP available, so I can't comment. But even a one-stop advantage can make the difference between a sharp shot and an unacceptable one. Alternatively you can shoot at the same shutter speed but use a lower ISO setting, which again is a big deal for me personally.

As I've posted previously, I stopped using my *unstabilised* 180mm F3.5 with my (now sold) 5DS simply because the lack of any stabilisation in either body or lens made it virtually unusable in my quite shaky hands. On the R5, that is now my most commonly used lens - that's how good the IBIS is. Of course, it's entirely possible that someone with much steadier hands than me would see less of a difference, I can only judge from my own experience.

IF the digital stabilisation of the R5C is so good, presumably Canon will cease to to incorporate mechanical IBIS in the R1 and other future bodies, and replace it with digital stabilisation. Now that really would be interesting to see.


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## peters (Jan 26, 2022)

All this discussion about "its a bad camera because ibis is missing. I am such a professional, I need an uncompromised video and photo tool". 

Just keep one R5 and buy one R5C. Thats the perfect solution. You have the perfect photo camera with great video features with ibis, in case you realy need this. 
And you have one more video centered camera that offers unlimited recordings and everything one can wish for, except ibis. 

These high end professionals that seriously say the missing ibis is a dealbreaker, are quite just posers. If your work is that incredible important and you cant get it done without ibis, you should certainly have a second backup camera anyway.


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## yeahright (Jan 26, 2022)

entoman said:


> IF the digital stabilisation of the R5C is so good, presumably Canon will cease to to incorporate mechanical IBIS in the R1 and other future bodies, and replace it with digital stabilisation. Now that really would be interesting to see.


IBIS works DURING the time a frame is taken, digital stabilization works BETWEEN frames and is, therefore, of no use for stills photography (where only a single frame is taken, so what would you stabilize).


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## chrisrmueller (Jan 27, 2022)

peters said:


> All this discussion about "its a bad camera because ibis is missing. I am such a professional, I need an uncompromised video and photo tool".
> 
> Just keep one R5 and buy one R5C. Thats the perfect solution. You have the perfect photo camera with great video features with ibis, in case you realy need this.
> And you have one more video centered camera that offers unlimited recordings and everything one can wish for, except ibis.
> ...


Honestly, I feel similarly and that’s why I’m holding on to my R5 + Ninja V and sold off the rest of my gear for the R5C. I used an R professionally for several years and it was great despite not having IBIS, CLOG3, or full frame 4K. I’ll hold onto the R5 as a B-cam on video gigs and use the R5C as a B-cam on photo gigs. What I feel will be most profoundly useful for this new camera is the Cinema EOS firmware, with its Face Only AF, monitoring tools, and non-stop recording time with oversampled 4K and 2K. Having it all in one package without needing an Atomos will be a game changer. My work is 60/40 photo/video, and in defense of those who need IBIS, I have never done any video work where I was not on a tripod or gimbal.


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## peters (Jan 27, 2022)

chrisrmueller said:


> Honestly, I feel similarly and that’s why I’m holding on to my R5 + Ninja V and sold off the rest of my gear for the R5C. I used an R professionally for several years and it was great despite not having IBIS, CLOG3, or full frame 4K. I’ll hold onto the R5 as a B-cam on video gigs and use the R5C as a B-cam on photo gigs. What I feel will be most profoundly useful for this new camera is the Cinema EOS firmware, with its Face Only AF, monitoring tools, and non-stop recording time with oversampled 4K and 2K. Having it all in one package without needing an Atomos will be a game changer. My work is 60/40 photo/video, and in defense of those who need IBIS, I have never done any video work where I was not on a tripod or gimbal.


Jeah, thats pretty much exactly my setup 
The Ninja is also a great monitor, just a bit power hungry in my opinion. Btw, check out the latest update, it brings fan control to the atomos! 
Having 2 cameras is a matter of course. I can not take any "professional" here serious, who says he is doing such importan work, but only has one camera body. Failure or breakdowns are allways possible, so its crucial to have at least one reliable backup. Also many videojobs require 2 angles, so a second cam for b-roll is very often necessary.
The R5 and R5C are the 100% perfect combination 
Also I do a lot of travel photography, so the R5 is a perfect little tool for this. Its smaller and got the ibis for situations with bad light =)

I am not so sure what to think about IBIS for videoproduction. My handheld footage is often quite shaky, but than again the IBIS isnt that great either. It feels choppy and locks sometimes, but sometimes not. Its not realy smooth. All Cinema centered cameras also dont feature IBIS, so in this area its obviously not realy wanted. But I would have prefered if they had included it in the R5C.

I am also interested in the AF performance of the R5C compared to the R5. I hope its not notable worse, since its "only" DPAF I nad no DPAF II


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## entoman (Jan 27, 2022)

yeahright said:


> IBIS works DURING the time a frame is taken, digital stabilization works BETWEEN frames and is, therefore, of no use for stills photography (where only a single frame is taken, so what would you stabilize).


Yes I think that's correct, so digital stabilisation would only be of value for stills during bursts, and the first frame in the burst would only have OIS (assuming a stabilised lens is fitted). This just further underscores my comments that for critical sharpness with stills, IBIS is invaluable, particularly with unstabilised optics. The saving grace is that most recent EF and RF lenses have extremely good OIS, and luckily for stills shooters, the R5 is cheaper than the less suitable R5C.


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## entoman (Jan 27, 2022)

peters said:


> All this discussion about "its a bad camera because ibis is missing. I am such a professional, I need an uncompromised video and photo tool".


I would replace the word "professional" with "perfectionist" - there are plenty of non-pros who want to achieve "professional" results and the highest possible keeper rates. And to refer to people who demand the best results as "posers" is ignorant and insulting.



peters said:


> Just keep one R5 and buy one R5C. Thats the perfect solution. You have the perfect photo camera with great video features with ibis, in case you realy need this.
> And you have one more video centered camera that offers unlimited recordings and everything one can wish for, except ibis.



Yes, that would be the ideal solution, but there are many pros who haven't yet built up their business to the point where they can afford to buy both cameras. Further, there are many established and highly respected pros who like to keep their expenditure on gear quite low - e.g. Keith Cooper of Northlight, who uses an R5 as his main camera, and a RP as his secondary camera.


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## peters (Jan 27, 2022)

entoman said:


> I would replace the word "professional" with "perfectionist" - there are plenty of non-pros who want to achieve "professional" results and the highest possible keeper rates. And to refer to people who demand the best results as "posers" is ignorant and insulting.


Okay, thats true, that was a bit over the top on my end.


entoman said:


> Yes, that would be the ideal solution, but there are many pros who haven't yet built up their business to the point where they can afford to buy both cameras. Further, there are many established and highly respected pros who like to keep their expenditure on gear quite low - e.g. Keith Cooper of Northlight, who uses an R5 as his main camera, and a RP as his secondary camera.


Okay, thats certainly true.
But what also applies is: what you pay is what you get.
The R5C is without a doubt the most versatile and complete 2-in-1 camera on the market. At a rather cheap price you get 2 very very well outfitted cameras. A high end photography camera which covers any kind of phtography AND a professional small cinema camera with excellent quality.

Currently only 2 cameras on the market get close to this kind of combined feature set - the Nikon z9 and Sony a1. Which are both even more expensive. (Z9 1000 USD and a1 even 2-3000 USD more.) At a closer look, one could argue that the R5C even beats both cameras features on the video side. It offers 120p 4k oversampled from 8k (which is pretty insane!), 8k60 internal raw, better viewfinder, Time-code in, bigger codec selection, better video monitoring tools. The Sony and Nikon got a bit higher fps and are a bit more refined for photographers, especialy because they offer ibis and got 6mp more.


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## yeahright (Jan 27, 2022)

entoman said:


> Yes I think that's correct, so digital stabilisation would only be of value for stills during bursts, and the first frame in the burst would only have OIS (assuming a stabilised lens is fitted). This just further underscores my comments that for critical sharpness with stills, IBIS is invaluable, particularly with unstabilised optics. The saving grace is that most recent EF and RF lenses have extremely good OIS, and luckily for stills shooters, the R5 is cheaper than the less suitable R5C.


Digital stabilization is also of no use during bursts. Digital stabilization crops the image so that the framing stays the same from image to image when really the camera sees a different framing due to camera shake. In stills photography, even when shooting bursts, the different framing of consecutive frames is irrelevant, since you don't play the frames taken during a burst like a video but instead only select those that best capture the moment and/or are sharpest.


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## SteveC (Jan 27, 2022)

entoman said:


> Keith Cooper of Northlight, who uses an R5 as his main camera, and a RP as his secondary camera.



Wow, I have the same gear as him. I must be just as good a photographer then.

(Switching irony off!)


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## entoman (Jan 27, 2022)

SteveC said:


> Wow, I have the same gear as him. I must be just as good a photographer then.
> 
> (Switching irony off!)


Well you have the satisfaction of knowing that the gear you use is good enough for professional usage!

It's perhaps surprising how many pros use the R and RP models, but they are great for tripod work or anything else that doesn't need high burst speeds or IBIS.

Both are ideal as cheap(ish) backup bodies.


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## stevelee (Jan 27, 2022)

yeahright said:


> Digital stabilization is also of no use during bursts. Digital stabilization crops the image so that the framing stays the same from image to image when really the camera sees a different framing due to camera shake. In stills photography, even when shooting bursts, the different framing of consecutive frames is irrelevant, since you don't play the frames taken during a burst like a video but instead only select those that best capture the moment and/or are sharpest.


If you want a series of stills aligned, you do that in post, such as Photoshop. The purposes for that can include focus stacking, merging to HDR, and creating time-lapse video from stills. I can see no point in pre-cropping in the camera. The exception is for in-camera HDR, but that doesn’t involve the digital stabilization setting directly.

I took quite a few photos of the total solar eclipse in 2017. I decided to put some of them together to get a pseudo-time-lapse video. Except at totality shots were made through an extremely dark filter. So you have portions of a bright disk against a black background. Of course I used a tripod, but the sun was moving in the sky, and I wasn’t using a tracking motor. Every now and then I needed to move the camera to keep the sun in the picture. The apparent rotation of the sun would change. No “stabilization” would have taken care of that. Photoshop was completely baffled in trying to align. So I painstakingly aligned images, mostly using sunspots as a reference. The resulting video was rather crude, but the general idea worked, and I think was worth the trouble. Eclipse video


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## JN- (Jan 27, 2022)

Does anyone know if the “Slow/Fast” 4k 100/120 fps is still either line skipped or is it downsampled ?


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## SteveC (Jan 27, 2022)

entoman said:


> Well you have the satisfaction of knowing that the gear you use is good enough for professional usage!
> 
> It's perhaps surprising how many pros use the R and RP models, but they are great for tripod work or anything else that doesn't need high burst speeds or IBIS.
> 
> Both are ideal as cheap(ish) backup bodies.



That was my intent. I don't ever want the camera to be the limiting factor. I can (presumably) fix my own incompetence and improve, that way.


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## entoman (Jan 27, 2022)

SteveC said:


> I don't ever want the camera to be the limiting factor.


Yep, once we reach a certain level of competence as photographers, it's natural to desire the best available tool for the job, and not to compromise. So as a competent stills photographer, the R5 is a better fit for me than a R5C, as my interest in video is minimal. The R3 and "R1" would be even less of a compromise than the near-perfect R5, but I prefer to use an accessory grip rather than having it built-in to the camera. Also, while I'm a competent photographer, I'm not a rich one, and couldn't justify the expense of a £5000+ body.

Conversely, folk who have not reached that level of competence as photographers, often believe that a "better" camera will make them better photographers, which is rarely the case, although a better camera can improve keeper rates due to better AF, metering and fast burst speeds to "capture the moment".


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## cayenne (Jan 28, 2022)

entoman said:


> Yes, I've seen that, and his findings with the 800mm on the R5 concur roughly with mine - I can manage sharp shots at 1/60, he can manage sharp shots at a crazy 1/30, which can probably be explained by him simply having steadier hands.
> 
> He finds about a one stop difference between using the combined IBIS and OIS of the R5 and the OIS-only of the RP. I don't have an RP available, so I can't comment. But even a one-stop advantage can make the difference between a sharp shot and an unacceptable one. Alternatively you can shoot at the same shutter speed but use a lower ISO setting, which again is a big deal for me personally.
> 
> ...


Yes...BUT....

One of the GREAT thing about mirrorless cameras is the almost endless ability to adapt fully MANUAL lenses....especially vintage ones for looks which both stills and video folks enjoy.

IBIS would be an amazing option to have for that.

C


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## cayenne (Jan 28, 2022)

peters said:


> Okay, thats true, that was a bit over the top on my end.
> 
> Okay, thats certainly true.
> But what also applies is: what you pay is what you get.
> ...


As I'd mentioned earlier I the thread, if the R5C had IBIS I'd be on a waiting list now too.

And if it was just a few more dollars more...I'd lay that out happily and be on that list.

This R5C only came out like what $500-$600 more than the R5?

Hell, add another $500-$1K for IBIS, no problem. 

C


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 28, 2022)

cayenne said:


> One of the GREAT thing about mirrorless cameras is the almost endless ability to adapt fully MANUAL lenses....especially vintage ones for looks which both stills and video folks enjoy.


People still play vinyl records. Honestly, I don't get it. I'm not going to buy a horse and buggy to take my kids to school. To each their own, though.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 28, 2022)

entoman said:


> It all depends on whether you are viewing the R5C as a pro video tool with sub-optimal stills capability (which is what the camera is), or whether you believe the camera should reflect Canon's slightly misleading advertising that it is "ready for anything". The latter implies that the specification and performance for stills is to the same standard as for video (which it is not).
> 
> Canon themselves have said that the combination of OIS and digital stabilisation is sub-optimal for stills photography (and causes a minor crop) and that stills photographers should really be considering the R5 instead:
> 
> ...



then what camera do you consider a hybrid cinema camera? certainly not the a7s3 or fx3. no 24.00 fps. no timecode. no 8k. no shutter angle. no dci. only 12mp photos.

certainly not the a74. no 24.00 fps. no timecode. no 8k. no shutter angle. no dci. no 4k60 uncropped. only 5 fps in uncompressed raw shooting.

the R5 is fantastic but it doesn't have the cinema tools that make shooting easier.


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## entoman (Jan 28, 2022)

dirtyvu said:


> then what camera do you consider a hybrid cinema camera? certainly not the a7s3 or fx3. no 24.00 fps. no timecode. no 8k. no shutter angle. no dci. only 12mp photos.
> 
> certainly not the a74. no 24.00 fps. no timecode. no 8k. no shutter angle. no dci. no 4k60 uncropped. only 5 fps in uncompressed raw shooting.
> 
> the R5 is fantastic but it doesn't have the cinema tools that make shooting easier.


I haven't suggested that the R5C isn't a hybrid cinema camera, in fact I think I've made it pretty clear that I think it's a superb camera. I'm not a videographer, but the R5C seems to be near-perfect for video use, especially considering the relatively low price. The only fault I can find from a video perspective is that it lacks a full size HDMI port.

But Canon advertise it as being ready for anything, and it isn't "ready" for shooting stills with non-stabilised lenses, due to the lack of IBIS. For stills, the digital stabilisation is non-functional, so we are back to relying on OIS, which is less efficient than the synchronised OIS and IBIS of the original R5.

Instead of "ready for anything", a more accurate (though less catchy) slogan might be "class-leading for video, and adequate but not outstanding for stills"


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> Instead of "ready for anything", a more accurate (though less catchy) slogan might be "class-leading for video, and adequate but not outstanding for stills"


LOL. 

“*Wheaties. The Breakfast of Champions* Some People Who Win Some of the Time.”

“*M&Ms – Melts in Your Mouth,* *Not* Melts Somewhat More Slowly *in Your Hands* and Will Stain Your Clothes if You Wipe Those Gooey Hands on Them.”


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> I haven't suggested that the R5C isn't a hybrid cinema camera, in fact I think I've made it pretty clear that I think it's a superb camera. I'm not a videographer, but the R5C seems to be near-perfect for video use, especially considering the relatively low price. The only fault I can find from a video perspective is that it lacks a full size HDMI port.
> 
> But Canon advertise it as being ready for anything, and it isn't "ready" for shooting stills with non-stabilised lenses, due to the lack of IBIS. For stills, the digital stabilisation is non-functional, so we are back to relying on OIS, which is less efficient than the synchronised OIS and IBIS of the original R5.
> 
> Instead of "ready for anything", a more accurate (though less catchy) slogan might be "class-leading for video, and adequate but not outstanding for stills"


Again, simply ludicrous to suggest a person can't get a sharp photo without sensor and/or lens stabilization - just ask Ansel Adams, or me and my 4+ years of 5D MK IV/R shots, most of which were with unstabilized lenses walking around.

The camera can take 45 MP raw photos and shoot 8k 60p. It does not have the IBIS of an R5, or the hardcore cine features/modularity of cameras sometimes costing 5x more, but a pro need not make any quality compromises in the photos and videos they capture...as opposed to an R5 (video issues w/time limits and heat) or C70 (not full frame, no 8k). At best, IBIS would give a slightly higher percentage of sharp photos in specific situations at a slower shutter speed than without. You can still take multiple exposures, still use DPAF, still adjust your settings to a higher ISO or bigger aperture or both, use a tripod or monopod or brace yourself against something, etc. etc. etc.....


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## stevelee (Jan 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> For stills, the digital stabilisation is non-functional,


For stills, the digital stabilization makes no sense. It is a video thing.


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## chrisrmueller (Jan 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> I haven't suggested that the R5C isn't a hybrid cinema camera, in fact I think I've made it pretty clear that I think it's a superb camera. I'm not a videographer, but the R5C seems to be near-perfect for video use, especially considering the relatively low price. The only fault I can find from a video perspective is that it lacks a full size HDMI port.
> 
> But Canon advertise it as being ready for anything, and it isn't "ready" for shooting stills with non-stabilised lenses, due to the lack of IBIS. For stills, the digital stabilisation is non-functional, so we are back to relying on OIS, which is less efficient than the synchronised OIS and IBIS of the original R5.
> 
> Instead of "ready for anything", a more accurate (though less catchy) slogan might be "class-leading for video, and adequate but not outstanding for stills"


I’m not trying to defend Canon or anything, but I would argue that it will be outstanding for stills. I think the R5 has an amazing sensor and I love the images I get out it. Before the R5, I never had the privilege of using IBIS. And I am still not sure if IBIS is really doing anything for me personally because I shoot with the first edition 70-200/2.8 IS (and it’s still phenomenal).

That said, the style of photography I shoot requires me to shoot at at the slowest 1/160, so perhaps I’m not the target use case for IBIS. But as a stills camera, I believe the R5, even if it didn’t have IBIS, is amazing as a photo camera purely on the ease of use, AF, and sensor. 

I think if the use case requires really slow shutter speeds, handheld, then you could argue that it’s only adequate—but then again, were the 1DXiii, 5Div, and R only adequate stills cameras?


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## entoman (Jan 29, 2022)

chrisrmueller said:


> I’m not trying to defend Canon or anything, but I would argue that it will be outstanding for stills. I think the R5 has an amazing sensor and I love the images I get out it. Before the R5, I never had the privilege of using IBIS. And I am still not sure if IBIS is really doing anything for me personally because I shoot with the first edition 70-200/2.8 IS (and it’s still phenomenal).
> 
> That said, the style of photography I shoot requires me to shoot at at the slowest 1/160, so perhaps I’m not the target use case for IBIS. But as a stills camera, I believe the R5, even if it didn’t have IBIS, is amazing as a photo camera purely on the ease of use, AF, and sensor.
> 
> I think if the use case requires really slow shutter speeds, handheld, then you could argue that it’s only adequate—but then again, were the 1DXiii, 5Div, and R only adequate stills cameras?


I agree - the original R5 (which I own) would still be a superb camera if it didn't have IBIS. I also own a 5DMkiv and previously had a 5DS, so I'm able to make a direct subjective comparison of the stabilisation of each of these cameras.

With the R5, if you're using RF lenses in which the OIS synchronises with the IBIS, I'd estimate at least a 3 stop advantage in stabilisation, compared with using OIS stabilised EF lenses on the 5DS. That makes a huge difference in terms of being able to use slower shutter speeds and/or lower ISO, for static subjects. With moving subjects, it allows you to use smaller apertures for more depth of field, if you need it.

But the biggest advantage of IBIS is that it enables you to much more easily hand-hold non-stabilised lenses (of which I have 3). IBIS alone provides an extra 1.5-2 stops of "handholdability" with my EF 180mm F3.5L at close distances (1:2 to 1:4)

Another advantage is that IBIS allows you to stabilise completely manual lenses from Laowa, Zeiss, Samyang etc.

For context, the lenses I use include RF 24-105mm F4L, RF 800mm F11, EF 180mm F3.5L, EF 100mm F2.8L macro, T/S-E 24mm F3.5L, EF 100-400mm F4-5.6L Mkii, and Laowa 25mm F2.8 Ultra-Macro. Obviuosly the effect of IBIS varies according to which lens is used.

Undoubtedly the R5C is a much superior camera to the R5 for videography, but the camera's digital stabilisation is non-functional with stills photography, so in terms of usable shutter speeds, the R5C is probably on par with the 5DS (which is OK, but certainly not a patch on the superb OIS/IBIS of the R5).


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## entoman (Jan 29, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> Again, simply ludicrous to suggest a person can't get a sharp photo without sensor and/or lens stabilization - just ask Ansel Adams, or me and my 4+ years of 5D MK IV/R shots, most of which were with unstabilized lenses walking around.
> 
> The camera can take 45 MP raw photos and shoot 8k 60p. It does not have the IBIS of an R5, or the hardcore cine features/modularity of cameras sometimes costing 5x more, but a pro need not make any quality compromises in the photos and videos they capture...as opposed to an R5 (video issues w/time limits and heat) or C70 (not full frame, no 8k). At best, IBIS would give a slightly higher percentage of sharp photos in specific situations at a slower shutter speed than without. You can still take multiple exposures, still use DPAF, still adjust your settings to a higher ISO or bigger aperture or both, use a tripod or monopod or brace yourself against something, etc. etc. etc.....


Don't mislead - I haven't said that "a person can't get a sharp photo without sensor and/or lens stabilization", what I've said is that having OIS or IBIS (and preferably both) makes a very significant difference to the ability to hand hold at slow shutter speeds. And I'm not just talking about very slow speeds (1/30 or below) - stabilisation makes long zooms and telephotos MUCH more usuable. My rough estimates are in the post above.

Sure, you can turn the ISO up from 400 to 6400 to compensate for the lack of stabilisation with stills, if you are content with much higher noise levels and lower dynamic range. Or you could find a handy tree or lamp-post to brace yourself against, but they can be hard to come by in open situations such as deserts, beaches, grasslands...

Oh, and you are clearly unaware that the stunning landscapes taken by Ansel Adams, to which you refer, were taken on large format cameras, so the degree of magnification to produce the final prints is very low, unlike the very high magnification when enlarging a 1.5" across FF image to a 24" print! High magnification hugely exaggerates camera shake, if you didn't know.

Furthermore, for almost all of his famous landscapes, Ansel Adams had his camera mounted on a very sturdy TRIPOD. - I assume you comprehend that stabilisation is deactivated (or manually switch off) when working with tripods?

By the way, you can't "ask" Ansel Adams - unless one of your two heads is able to communicate with the deceased.


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 29, 2022)

entoman said:


> Don't mislead - I haven't said that "a person can't get a sharp photo without sensor and/or lens stabilization", what I've said is that having OIS or IBIS (and preferably both) makes a very significant difference to the ability to hand hold at slow shutter speeds. And I'm not just talking about very slow speeds (1/30 or below) - stabilisation makes long zooms and telephotos MUCH more usuable. My rough estimates are in the post above.
> 
> Sure, you can turn the ISO up from 400 to 6400 to compensate for the lack of stabilisation with stills, if you are content with much higher noise levels and lower dynamic range. Or you could find a handy tree or lamp-post to brace yourself against, but they can be hard to come by in open situations such as deserts, beaches, grasslands...
> 
> ...


The Ansel Adams bit was tongue in cheek. Clearly I know he's not alive. I mentioned tripods as a solution to make IBIS unnecessary, so I'm definitely aware of their impact on IBIS. As I said - specific situations are where IBIS shines. Your exaggerated "4 stops of ISO" example ignores aperture (though 6400 on an R5 is still very good), and yes - if you are shooting still subjects with a telephoto lens, with no IS, handheld, in the dark, then IBIS may provide some qualitative benefits. I don't know why a person who has the coin for an R5 or R5C would be doing that, but anything is possible I suppose.


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## entoman (Jan 30, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> The Ansel Adams bit was tongue in cheek. Clearly I know he's not alive. I mentioned tripods as a solution to make IBIS unnecessary, so I'm definitely aware of their impact on IBIS. As I said - specific situations are where IBIS shines. Your exaggerated "4 stops of ISO" example ignores aperture (though 6400 on an R5 is still very good), and yes - if you are shooting still subjects with a telephoto lens, with no IS, handheld, in the dark, then IBIS may provide some qualitative benefits. I don't know why a person who has the coin for an R5 or R5C would be doing that, but anything is possible I suppose.


There's nothing "exaggerated" about my example of "4 stops of ISO". If anything, it was an understatement. That degree of stabilisation is very easily attained when using the combined OIS and IBIS of the R5. Alternatively you could use that stabilisation to enable shutter speeds as low as 1/60 with a hand-held RF 800mm, as I've done many times. When you are restricted by cost and weight to using a £800 F11 lens instead of a £15,000 big white, that stabilisation makes the difference between getting a razor-sharp shot, or an unrecognisable (without stabilisation) blur.

Of course there were very sharp photographs taken long before IBIS or OIS, but they were much harder to obtain with any degree of reliability or consistency. Under-estimating the value of IBIS is as crazy as under-estimating the massive improvements in sensors or AF which we currently have.

Sorry about the "two heads" leg-pull, but with a handle like that, you asked for it


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## dirtyvu (Jan 30, 2022)

entoman said:


> I haven't suggested that the R5C isn't a hybrid cinema camera, in fact I think I've made it pretty clear that I think it's a superb camera. I'm not a videographer, but the R5C seems to be near-perfect for video use, especially considering the relatively low price. The only fault I can find from a video perspective is that it lacks a full size HDMI port.
> 
> But Canon advertise it as being ready for anything, and it isn't "ready" for shooting stills with non-stabilised lenses, due to the lack of IBIS. For stills, the digital stabilisation is non-functional, so we are back to relying on OIS, which is less efficient than the synchronised OIS and IBIS of the original R5.
> 
> Instead of "ready for anything", a more accurate (though less catchy) slogan might be "class-leading for video, and adequate but not outstanding for stills"



I think that's why the R5 will continue to exist alongside the R5C. And that the R5C isn't mean to be a R5 Mark II. I love my R5 and was more of a photographer. But having used the video more and more (and it is gorgeous on the R5), it's gotten me really interested in video and that's where the R5C (which was originally off my radar) comes in. Yes, it would've been great if the R5C kept the IBIS for the photography side of things. that's why I wouldn't replace my R5 with the R5C. 

I think if a person's focus is primarily photography with some gorgeous video, the R5 is fantastic. But if you're more video with features that made videography easier with need for high quality photography, then the R5C is great. And while IBIS is fantastic for the R5, you can still get amazing results with just lens IS because the R5 is just so fast. Of course I haven't tried the R5C but if it focuses as fast as the R5, then lens IS alone would still be great. In any case, I primarily shoot people so shooting at slow speeds doesn't help as you can't expect people to stay that steady.


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 30, 2022)

entoman said:


> There's nothing "exaggerated" about my example of "4 stops of ISO". If anything, it was an understatement. That degree of stabilisation is very easily attained when using the combined OIS and IBIS of the R5.


Most of that improvement is from the OIS. Every test I have seen shows that IBIS independently accounts for a 1 - 2 stop improvement at best. I have not seen anything suggesting that the OIS + IBIS combo is greater than the sum of its parts, either - if the former gives you 3 stops, the latter 1, the two combined give you 4, not 4.5 or 5.

As is such with the 800mm - most of the improvement comes from the OIS. I generally find Ken Rockwell's tests to be 1/2 to 1 stop better than my personal experience, so he must have steadier hands, but his tests with and without IBIS and that lens are here: https://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/eos-r/lenses/800mm.htm


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## entoman (Jan 30, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> Most of that improvement is from the OIS. Every test I have seen shows that IBIS independently accounts for a 1 - 2 stop improvement at best. I have not seen anything suggesting that the OIS + IBIS combo is greater than the sum of its parts, either - if the former gives you 3 stops, the latter 1, the two combined give you 4, not 4.5 or 5.
> 
> As is such with the 800mm - most of the improvement comes from the OIS. I generally find Ken Rockwell's tests to be 1/2 to 1 stop better than my personal experience, so he must have steadier hands, but his tests with and without IBIS and that lens are here: https://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/eos-r/lenses/800mm.htm


Yes, most of the stabilisation comes from OIS, I certainly don't dispute that. IBIS and OIS effectiveness will vary according to focal length, lens design, and how "shaky" the photographer is. I'm quite shaky, but I can still manage very sharp handheld shots at 1/60 with the RF800mm and a static subject. Rockwell clearly has less shaky hands than I do.

Note that in my original post I was talking about a *total* of 4 stops improvement, with OIS and IBIS combined. And that is an underestimate.

Note also that I deliberately ignored the option of opening the aperture, simply because it often isn't possible. I regularly work in low light conditions at dawn and dusk, and I'm nearly always shooting at full aperture already.

I'm not arguing for the sake of it, just giving my own experiences below:

My own tests, using the non-stabilised EF 180mm F3.5, show an improvement of around 1.5-2 stops, as I've posted elsewhere.

So add that to the 3-4 stops (average) of optical stabilisation that I'd estimate my more recent lenses provide (EF 100-400mm F4-5.6L Mkii, RF 24-105mm F4L, RF 800mm F11), and you get between 4.5-6 stops of stabilisation with synchronised OIS and IBIS. Canon claim up to 8 stops with certain lenses, perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but 4.5-6 stops is still pretty amazing, and personally I'd hate to lose the 1.5-2 stops that IBIS contributes to that. Which is why I find the lack of IBIS in the R5C disappointing for stills use.


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## entoman (Jan 30, 2022)

dirtyvu said:


> I think that's why the R5 will continue to exist alongside the R5C. And that the R5C isn't mean to be a R5 Mark II. I love my R5 and was more of a photographer. But having used the video more and more (and it is gorgeous on the R5), it's gotten me really interested in video and that's where the R5C (which was originally off my radar) comes in. Yes, it would've been great if the R5C kept the IBIS for the photography side of things. that's why I wouldn't replace my R5 with the R5C.


Completely agree.

The R5 and R5C will continue alongside each other, with the R5 being better for stills and less demanding video, while the R5C will be better for video and less demanding stills. That's what I've been saying all alng, although a couple of  keyboard warriors have chosen to twist it to support their own arguments


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2022)

entoman said:


> My own tests, using the non-stabilised EF 180mm F3.5, show an improvement of around 1.5-2 stops, as I've posted elsewhere.
> 
> So add that to the 3-4 stops (average) of optical stabilisation that I'd estimate my more recent lenses provide (EF 100-400mm F4-5.6L Mkii, RF 24-105mm F4L, RF 800mm F11), and you get between 4.5-6 stops of stabilisation with synchronised OIS and IBIS.


Just FYI, they don’t add linearly as you suggest. For example, IBIS alone gives 7-8 stops on some lenses. The same IBIS with some 5-stop OIS lenses doesn’t give 12-13 stops, the combo tops out at 8 stops.


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## AlanF (Jan 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Just FYI, they don’t add linearly as you suggest. For example, IBIS alone gives 7-8 stops on some lenses. The same IBIS with some 5-stop OIS lenses doesn’t give 12-13 stops, the combo tops out at 8 stops.
> 
> View attachment 202313


That's a very informative diagram, Neuro.


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 30, 2022)

entoman said:


> Yes, most of the stabilisation comes from OIS, I certainly don't dispute that. IBIS and OIS effectiveness will vary according to focal length, lens design, and how "shaky" the photographer is. I'm quite shaky, but I can still manage very sharp handheld shots at 1/60 with the RF800mm and a static subject. Rockwell clearly has less shaky hands than I do.
> 
> Note that in my original post I was talking about a *total* of 4 stops improvement, with OIS and IBIS combined. And that is an underestimate.
> 
> ...


But no one is saying you should be "happy" that the R5C doesn't have IBIS. Just that lacking it doesn't make it a shit stills camera. Doesn't make it not a hybrid. Doesn't make it crippled, doesn't make it a ripoff. This is because the things the R5C DOES give you over the R5 *are* valuable (more skewed toward the video side than some of the things it's missing), and lacking IBIS is a design choice which not only impacts heat management positively, but also directly improves video quality in certain situations. In fact, it would be fair to say that it's presence or lack thereof impacts most shooters minimally, but based on what you actually shoot, having it or lacking it may be more preferable - and now you have the choice, carried with many other considerations much more important to output quality and workflow than IBIS.

-If you value HQ video without limits, the R5C is the choice. Lenses w/OIS on the telephoto end will likely be a worthwhile focal point on building your system (if you need telephoto), and perhaps wider, if you shoot in extremely dark situations handheld.
-If you value state-of-the-art features in how stills are captured, the R5 is the choice. You might be able to save money and weight on lenses w/o OIS in the wide to short telephoto range, or if your subjects move a lot as with sports, forego OIS in your bag entirely.
-If you absolutely cannot compromise between the two for a given job because you are a professional and your clients are paying for it, and renting isn't feasible because this is too frequently the case, own one of each; good news is you can focus on good glass that will be beneficial in any scenario.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> But no one is saying you should be "happy" that the R5C doesn't have IBIS. Just that lacking it doesn't make it a shit stills camera.


Imaging a camera lacking both IBIS and an eye-level viewfinder. I suspect @entoman would suggest it may as well lack a shutter button because there’d be no point in pressing one on such a camera.


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## entoman (Jan 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Just FYI, they don’t add linearly as you suggest. For example, IBIS alone gives 7-8 stops on some lenses. The same IBIS with some 5-stop OIS lenses doesn’t give 12-13 stops, the combo tops out at 8 stops.
> 
> View attachment 202313


I heard a theory, don't know how much truth there is in it, that it's impossible to get more than 8 stops of stabilisation - something to do with the rotation of the Earth, although it does sound a bit far-fetched.

Which camera/lens combination(s) provide 7-8 stops of IBIS? I've never heard even Sony claim that much, so I'm rather sceptical!

Presumably it would have to be an extreme wide-angle lens, as it seems to be generally accepted that OIS does most of the work with long focal length lenses.


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## entoman (Jan 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Imaging a camera lacking both IBIS and an eye-level viewfinder. I suspect @entoman would suggest it may as well lack a shutter button because there’d be no point in pressing one on such a camera.


Hilarious, have a banana!


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## entoman (Jan 30, 2022)

twoheadedboy said:


> But no one is saying you should be "happy" that the R5C doesn't have IBIS. Just that lacking it doesn't make it a shit stills camera. Doesn't make it not a hybrid. Doesn't make it crippled, doesn't make it a ripoff.


Yet another example of someone deliberately twisting the words of another contributor, in a rather silly manner.

Where have I ever implied that the lack of IBIS makes the R5C a "shit" camera?
Where have I ever implied that the the R5C is "not a hybrid"?
Where have I used the term "crippled"?
Where have I called it a "rip off"?

To summarise what I've said, and I'll repeat what I wrote in my reply above to dityvu:

The R5 and R5C will continue alongside each other, with the R5 being better for stills and less demanding video, while *the R5C will be better for video and "less demanding" stills*.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2022)

entoman said:


> Which camera/lens combination(s) provide 7-8 stops of IBIS? I've never heard even Sony claim that much, so I'm rather sceptical!
> 
> Presumably it would have to be an extreme wide-angle lens, as it seems to be generally accepted that OIS does most of the work with long focal length lenses.


R3/R5/R6 with the RF 28-70/2L or RF 85/1.2 are rated for 8 stops. Those bodies with the RF 50/1.2 give 7 stops. None of those lenses have IS. So yes, it’s possible and no, it does not require a UWA lens.


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## entoman (Jan 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> R3/R5/R6 with the RF 28-70/2L or RF 85/1.2 are rated for 8 stops. Those bodies with the RF 50/1.2 give 7 stops. None of those lenses have IS. So yes, it’s possible and no, it does not require a UWA lens.


Now *that* is interesting, and to me very surprising that such a figure is possible (claimed) for IBIS alone with those lenses.
I just wish that Canon would bring out a new version of my favourite lens - the 180mm F3.5L that could manage 8 stops of stabilisation (by either method, or both).

There is of course a difference between "rated" stabilisation figures and *actual* ones - I've yet to see any video or read any article in which the reviewer has been able to match Canon's claim. It's very easy for Canon or anyone else to claim "up to 8 stops" because it's meaningless. Even a half-stop improvement qualifies as "up to 8".

But leaving aside my natural scepticism, I've been very impressed with the OIS + IBIS stabilisation of my RF 800mm F11, and the IBIS and new firmware of the R5 has finally made my EF 180mm F3.5 usable for hand-held macro.


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## stevelee (Jan 30, 2022)

entoman said:


> I heard a theory, don't know how much truth there is in it, that it's impossible to get more than 8 stops of stabilisation - something to do with the rotation of the Earth, although it does sound a bit far-fetched.
> 
> Which camera/lens combination(s) provide 7-8 stops of IBIS? I've never heard even Sony claim that much, so I'm rather sceptical!
> 
> Presumably it would have to be an extreme wide-angle lens, as it seems to be generally accepted that OIS does most of the work with long focal length lenses.


Are there other planets better suited for photography?


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## entoman (Jan 30, 2022)

stevelee said:


> Are there other planets better suited for photography?


Only James Webb has the answer to that...


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2022)

entoman said:


> There is of course a difference between "rated" stabilisation figures and *actual* ones - I've yet to see any video or read any article in which the reviewer has been able to match Canon's claim. It's very easy for Canon or anyone else to claim "up to 8 stops" because it's meaningless. Even a half-stop improvement qualifies as "up to 8".


What you call meaningless is determined based on the 55-page CIPA standard on _Measurement and Description Method for Image Stabilization Performance of Digital Cameras (Optical System)_.

Please quote from that document where the standard permits calling a half-stop improvement ‘up to 8 stops’. Don’t bother, obviously it doesn’t.

Skepticism is healthy, as long as it’s not so extreme it results in failure to accept facts. In today’s world, overdeveloped skepticism is literally deadly.


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## entoman (Jan 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> What you call meaningless is determined based on the 55-page CIPA standard on _Measurement and Description Method for Image Stabilization Performance of Digital Cameras (Optical System)_.
> 
> Please quote from that document where the standard permits calling a half-stop improvement ‘up to 8 stops’. Don’t bother, obviously it doesn’t.
> 
> Skepticism is healthy, as long as it’s not so extreme it results in failure to accept facts. In today’s world, overdeveloped skepticism is literally deadly.


Skepticism isn't just healthy, it's downright essential for survival, particularly in modern times when the truth is twisted beyond all recognition for political or commercial gain.

CIPA figures are based on laboratory testing conditions that are rarely, if ever, met in the real world. That's why, e.g. energy consumption of modern cameras tends to be overstated, shutter life is invariably underestimated, and IBIS claims are rarely matched in real-world shooting conditions.

So while CIPA figures can be useful when comparing brands or models, they are *very* much an approximation.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 31, 2022)

entoman said:


> Skepticism isn't just healthy, it's downright essential for survival, particularly in modern times when the truth is twisted beyond all recognition for political or commercial gain.


Too much of anything is unhealthy. For example, skepticism of the COVID-19 vaccines based on the belief they contain government-linked nanotrackers.



entoman said:


> CIPA figures are based on laboratory testing conditions that are rarely, if ever, met in the real world. That's why, e.g. energy consumption of modern cameras tends to be overstated, shutter life is invariably underestimated, and IBIS claims are rarely matched in real-world shooting conditions.
> 
> So while CIPA figures can be useful when comparing brands or models, they are *very* much an approximation.


In my EF-M lens testing, I found the IS on some to be more effective than Canon’s rating. In practice, I find that I get within ±1 stop of Canon’s IS rating, so I’d call that a pretty good approximation. Perhaps you have difficulty holding a camera steady (which is partly innate and partly technique), just as you apparently find it too difficult to compose shots without an eye-level viewfinder. 

Regardless, your claim that Canon could 
market a half-stop improvement as ‘up to 8 stops’ was clearly ridiculous.


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## koenkooi (Jan 31, 2022)

entoman said:


> I heard a theory, don't know how much truth there is in it, that it's impossible to get more than 8 stops of stabilisation - something to do with the rotation of the Earth, although it does sound a bit far-fetched.[..]


The earth rotation thing comes from an interview with an Olympus exec who was asked why their IS tops out at 5 stops and he responded with the rotation argument. Personally, I read it as "LOL, I'm not going to tell you, on the record, that our engineers suck or that that CIPA test methodolgy is bogus, so: the earth rotates too fast!"

And like the battery tests, the CIPA IS tests don't look anything like "we" use a camera. Canon figured out how to beat that specific test to get 8 stops.

The new Canon ILIS and IBIS systems are still very impressive and a huge real-life improvement, but not 8 stops.


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## entoman (Jan 31, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Too much of anything is unhealthy. For example, skepticism of the COVID-19 vaccines based on the belief they contain government-linked nanotrackers.


I completely agree, and you give a good example, but your comment is not contradictory to mine. Acceptance without questioning, is also unhealthy. I question many things, listen to others, and draw my own conclusions.


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## entoman (Jan 31, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Perhaps you have difficulty holding a camera steady (which is partly innate and partly technique), just as you apparently find it too difficult to compose shots without an eye-level viewfinder.


I've stated here several times that I have quite shaky hands, although a couple of years ago, in side by side rough tests with friends (using each others DSLRs as well as our own), I sometimes found my hand-holding ability (with eye-level viewing, and using 100-400mm zooms on subjects a few feet away) was greater than theirs. So I'm probably about average. I'm over 70, so obviously not as steady as some!

Yes, I've made it clear already that I find it much harder to compose via a screen compared to an eye-level viewfinder. I've never said that it's *impossible* for me or you or anyone else to get sharp and well composed shots that way, but I absolutely maintain that using a camera braced against the face will dramatically increase anyone's chances of getting a sharp image at slower shutter speeds, or with long or heavy lenses. Holding a camera at arms length is far less steady, and I'm sure this could easily be proven in a side by side test.

I also maintain that if a camera is held at arms length, it's much harder to compose, judge depth of field, bokeh, sharpness or notice distracting background elements etc, because the image on the screen is small and distant, whereas that in an EVF is magnified and (if you shut the other eye) and surrounded by a dark field which concentrates one's eye and mind on the image. A screen can of course still be used with the camera held against the waist, which makes it a little steadier, but the image still appears small compared to using a camera at the eye.

Why some people get so defensive about this and take mock offence, is beyond me. I suspect it's due to them being unable to concede that they have a weak argument.

You (and others) can argue against this until you're blue in the face, but you all know the truth - which is that an eye-level viewfinder allows a steadier camera and better conditions for analysing the image prior to capture.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 31, 2022)

entoman said:


> I've stated here several times that I have quite shaky hands, although a couple of years ago, in side by side rough tests with friends (using each others DSLRs as well as our own), I sometimes found my hand-holding ability (with eye-level viewing, and using 100-400mm zooms on subjects a few feet away) was greater than theirs. So I'm probably about average. I'm over 70, so obviously not as steady as some!
> 
> Yes, I've made it clear already that I find it much harder to compose via a screen compared to an eye-level viewfinder. I've never said that it's *impossible* for me or you or anyone else to get sharp and well composed shots that way, but I absolutely maintain that using a camera braced against the face will dramatically increase anyone's chances of getting a sharp image at slower shutter speeds, or with long or heavy lenses. Holding a camera at arms length is far less steady, and I'm sure this could easily be proven in a side by side test.
> 
> ...


Perhaps I have steadier hands than average (excess coffee consumption notwithstanding). For the EF-M 55-200mm, I was able to handhold at a full stop above Canon's 3.5-stop rating. That was on an M6, so no pressing the eyecup to my brow ridge for additional stabilization. Certainly the light weight is another factor.

You can maintain using an LCD makes composition more difficult until you're blue in the face, it remains your opinion and arguably your personal failing. You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but calling it 'the truth' is not an accurate statement. 

Having the viewfinder mask out the surrounding elements of the scene makes it easier to see what is included, yes. But conversely, it makes it harder to see what elements of the scene you're _ex_cluding. The whole point of composition is to decide what to include and what not to include, and if you can only see one of those your composition may suffer. Practically, you can zoom out and/or move the camera around to see what you'd be missing, but using the LCD with a bit of distance between you and the camera means you can immediately see what the viewfinder isn't showing you. 

Particularly when shooting on a tripod, I find the LCD _much_ easier to use than the eye-level viewfinder. Have you ever composed and focused a shot with a tilt-shift lens using the viewfinder? Not to mention that with an OVF, you have to meter separately because the lens movements muck up the TTL metering.

Speaking of being unable to admit a having weak argument, do you still claim that cameras without an eye-level viewfinder are fit only for the purpose of making technically poor, badly composed images? Maybe you conceded you were wrong, and I missed it.


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## cayenne (Jan 31, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> People still play vinyl records. Honestly, I don't get it. I'm not going to buy a horse and buggy to take my kids to school. To each their own, though.


OH of course, the name of the game is....whatever floats your boat.

I've just really become enamored lately, with shooting some of the old Helios Russian lenses. That swirly bokeh in the back is just amazing to me....and not something you can readily recreate any other way, not really even with PS and modern lenses.

There's some lenses with a painterly look....and this not only goes for stills, but also are becoming quite popular with video.

Lots of creating folks are looking for ways to get 'looks'. 

And while I love a LOT of the modern lenses, in many ways, they can be described as looking, well..."clinical".

Shooting portraits of women especially, seeing every pore isn't really what you want, and a good vintage lens can remedy that and give some interesting looks.

Having IBIS on these manual lenses (also modern ones from Laowa, their macro stuff is fun)....is a HUGE plus. It really does open up a lot of new worlds to you, often for not a high price.

But as you said, whatever floats your boat....but I would suggest that this isn't an insignificant number of folks, especially with the younger set believe it or not.

cayenne


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## entoman (Jan 31, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Having the viewfinder mask out the surrounding elements of the scene makes it easier to see what is included, yes. But conversely, it makes it harder to see what elements of the scene you're _ex_cluding. The whole point of composition is to decide what to include and what not to include, and if you can only see one of those your composition may suffer. Practically, you can zoom out and/or move the camera around to see what you'd be missing, but using the LCD with a bit of distance between you and the camera means you can immediately see what the viewfinder isn't showing you.


It isn't necessary to zoom back to see what's outside the field of view (and isn't possible with a prime). All you need to do is open the other eye.

For landscapes and several other subjects, I normally have both eyes open when making the initial framing, but then close the other eye so that I can concentrate on the resulting image.

For BIF, and other action subjects that are difficult to frame accurately, I zoom back to locate the subject, and then zoom in for the shot.

I also find it highly beneficial to have lots of megapixels, so that I can allow space around the subject - not only to compensate for inaccurate framing of erratically moving subjects, but also so that I can choose between various cropping options in post.

Using the "LCD at a bit of distance" means that it only occupies a very small area of your eye's field of view, so you can't see much in the way of detail, and can't judge focus, depth of field, bokeh remotely as well as with an EVF, which is part of the reason I use the latter and encourage others to do the same.



neuroanatomist said:


> Particularly when shooting on a tripod, I find the LCD _much_ easier to use than the eye-level viewfinder.


I have 4 tripods, and in the past used them frequently for landscapes, botany, fungi etc, but I rarely use them these days due to better noise and DR preformance with modern sensors, and the fact that I don't like to encumber myself with extra gear. If I was using a tripod, then yes I might use the screen, and use my hand to shade it from sunlight, and use the maginification feature to check details. But in practice I do most of my landscape shots handheld and use the EVF, crouching or kneeling if necessary - I don't mind getting muddy for the sake of a good photo!



neuroanatomist said:


> Have you ever composed and focused a shot with a tilt-shift lens using the viewfinder? Not to mention that with an OVF, you have to meter separately because the lens movements muck up the TTL metering.


I have no difficulty at all in composing and focusing using my TS-E 24mm hand-held, and do so very frequently. Manual focusing is easy and quick, using peaking and/or the R5 focus indicator "thingy". It does take a few seconds, but that's not as long as it would take to set up a tripod, although landscape and botanical photography is rarely a hurried experience. Don't misinterpret this as me criticising tripod use - I used them regularly when I was younger, but no longer want the encumbrance on long hikes.



neuroanatomist said:


> Not to mention that with an OVF, you have to meter separately because the lens movements muck up the TTL metering.


With an OVF that's true, although I habitually bracket my exposures anyway, so I've never found it a problem with my DSLRs. With an EVF, the metering issue with tilt/shift lenses doesn't exist, I use the histogram and bracket 2/3rds stop either side in high contrast conditions.


neuroanatomist said:


> Speaking of being unable to admit a having weak argument, do you still claim that cameras without an eye-level viewfinder are fit only for the purpose of making technically poor, badly composed images? Maybe you conceded you were wrong, and I missed it.


I was, of course, exaggerating the point in my original post, in order to stimulate a debate .

I think I've made it very clear in the posts that followed that my view is that it is perfectly *possible* to get sharp and well composed shots (under certain conditions) when composing on a screen, but that in most circumstances an EVF or OVF is a much *better* way to compose, and a steadier way to execute a photograph, when using a camera hand-held. The latter could almost certainly be proven by testing, and I've explained my reasoning for the former.

As an aside, my ideal viewfinder would be a *tilting* EVF, but I do find the rear screen much better for making menu and "quick screen" adjustments, as I don't like cycling through icons in the EVF. So the view through my EVF is usually completely unobscured, except when I activate the histogram.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 31, 2022)

cayenne said:


> OH of course, the name of the game is....whatever floats your boat.
> 
> I've just really become enamored lately, with shooting some of the old Helios Russian lenses. That swirly bokeh in the back is just amazing to me....and not something you can readily recreate any other way, not really even with PS and modern lenses.
> 
> ...


Agree! Lomo, etc., aren't unpopular. RE portraits, I haven't tried gauze or smearing vaseline on a front filter  but I have had to apply small amounts of blur in post, so I definitely get what you mean.


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## Sporgon (Feb 6, 2022)

entoman said:


> You (and others) can argue against this until you're blue in the face, but you all know the truth - which is that an eye-level viewfinder allows a steadier camera and better conditions for analysing the image prior to capture.


Personally I disagree with the last part of that sentence. When digital cameras began to get decent LV I often found, having set the picture up through the viewfinder, that when I viewed it on the rear screen in LV it was a crap picture and not worth taking. I think that the best viewfinder ‘for analysing the image prior to capture’ was probably for me the waist level finders. When composting a landscape picture, if the camera has a tilt / flippy screen I much prefer to look down on it. This is rather unfortunate as I mostly use a 5DS.
However I am short sighted and can look at the screens from very close. If someone has become long sighted through age I can imagine the rear LCD view is unsatisfactory.


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## unfocused (Feb 7, 2022)

It sounds like some people see a rear screen as *equivalent* to a viewfinder and others don't.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 7, 2022)

unfocused said:


> It sounds like some people see a rear screen as *equivalent* to a viewfinder and others don't.


I prefer to discuss that equivalence only in terms of brightness. Many so-called experts on this forum bring in technical terms like viewing magnification and refresh rate, but I think most people find those things confusing.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 7, 2022)

unfocused said:


> It sounds like some people see a rear screen as *equivalent* to a viewfinder and others don't.


Are we going to conflate equivalent and equivalence now?


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