# ND Filter for video - how to use?



## schemula (Feb 23, 2012)

I shot an interview a while back, and I messed up.

I rented an Arri 3 light kit and set everything up and, wow, it was nice and bright, and for some brain fart of a reason, turned the shutter speed up, and it was strobe and stutter looking. 

So, I obtained a 1.8 (10-stop) ND filter.

I don't own the light kit, so... I whipped up this quick test by just leaving the white balance to auto, and messing with just the shutter speed. For video I will want 1/60, but for this test I just ended up at 1/80. I have a small "daylight" fluorescent desk lamp and just shot straight into it.

*These are just the raw shots:*
No ND Filter
*
ND Filter
*

*For these I sampled the red circle area with the white eyedropper in Photoshop Levels:*
No ND Filter
*
ND Filter
*

Not too bad really. 

In the first batch, within reason, the detail came out close and in the corrected set it was not hard to almost get the white matched up. Not perfect, for for the small amount of work I put into it, pretty close.

What are some production tips I might can use to make this ND filter work? I won't know if 1.8 is too dark until I get the light kit again. I doubt the light kit will be as bright as shooting straight into this desk lamp and I still have aperture and ISO settings to futz with to keep the shutter dialed in at 1/60. I could use a custom white balance. What else?

I use a T2i and a 70-200mm f2.8 L Lens. At some point I will want to use these larger apertures to get that DSLR shallow DoF, so I just left the lens at 2.8 for this test.


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## cinema-dslr (Feb 25, 2012)

you should leave your shutter on 1/60th
As for the ND filter a variable ND filter is a simple way to control the light so you can keep your diafragma at 2,8.
With fixed ND filters a range of 0,5 to 6 stops is a lot more helpful than a 10stop
Of course lowering the light levels is also a way to go.


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## Cornershot (Feb 25, 2012)

Not sure what you're saying here. Are you having problems with flicker from the cfl's? The ND filter just allows you to keep your aperture wide open typically when shooting in very bright light like a sunny day. The variable NDs allow you to dial in how much light reduction you need. I've never used the Arri lights so don't know what kind of ballast they use. I've never had flicker issues with Kinos. Just drop your shutter speed.


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## Yoshiyuki Blade (Feb 25, 2012)

I personally like to shoot a neutral reference for WB with the filter on and set it in the camera before recording (I have a WhiBal and it works great). With AWB, daylight looks ok without a filter but there's a cool color cast with filter on. I have a Hoya Pro1-D ND x16 (4 stops) btw. With a neutral reference, both of them look pretty much the same and the colors look great.


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## cinema-dslr (Feb 25, 2012)

The poster had no ND on this particular shoot but wanted to shoot with diafragma 2,8 because of DOF.
He accomplished this by setting his shutterspeed at a high number.
For video this can give problems with light setups because they are transmitting at a freq. of 50/60Hz (depending were you are on this blue globe).


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 25, 2012)

Your white balance is off because the 10-stop ND filter has a warming effect (my B+W 77mm and Schneider 82mm 10-stoppers do).


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 25, 2012)

I doubt that a lighting kit used indoors will produce anough light to require a ND filter to let you use a lens wide open. It will certainly not be a 10 stop ND filter. ND's come in handy in bright outdoor sunlight to allow you to use a wide aperture and thus achieve shallow depth of field. At ISO 100, you probably will not be able to use f/2.8, even without the ND filter.


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## Lyra Video Productions (Feb 26, 2012)

I agree with previous poster--if you can, get a variable neutral density filter. This will let you keep the same shutter, aperture and iso (more or less) and only change your neutral density--it feels much the way you would adjust the iris ring on a normal video camera. If it's not too late and you have the funds, i'd say return the one you got and get a variable filter.

If that's not a choice, remember, you don't have to depend solely on the camera/filters to adjust the intensity of light--doing something simple like moving a light forward or back can make a huge light intensity difference--not to mention those kits always come with scrims to cut light output (at least a little). Good luck.


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## schemula (Feb 26, 2012)

Thanks for the replies.

Yeah, to clarify, I now know to keep the shutter at 1/60, but after I set the lights up, it was too bright and I foolishly upped the shutter speed which introduced the strobing effect. The lights themselves had nothing to do with the strobing.

So, in an effort to make 1/60 work I got this ND filter, which, once I saw it, immediately suspected was going to be too dark, and I have read about the color cast.

In this case it was a small room, so moving the lights back was not an option, though I could have should have used scrims.

I may return this filter (it was $184) and pick up a variable or a couple of filters that are less strong.

Living and learning.

Thanks!


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## NormanBates (Feb 26, 2012)

check out this:
http://www.similaar.com/foto/tuten/630.html

and this (specially the color cast tests at the end, but also the sharpness issues of the LCW fader ND -and most faders, actually- in case you're considering one of those):
www.similaar.com/foto/lenstests/lenstestsn.html


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## Cornershot (Feb 26, 2012)

Actually, all cfl's do flicker or strobe. You can really see it on the cheaper lights and if your power source isn't good or your batteries are low. It also depends on the ballast they use.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 26, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> check out this:
> http://www.similaar.com/foto/tuten/630.html
> 
> and this (specially the color cast tests at the end, but also the sharpness issues of the LCW fader ND -and most faders, actually- in case you're considering one of those):
> www.similaar.com/foto/lenstests/lenstestsn.html



If renting lights, try to get some that have less light or adjustable output, you do not want to use ND filters except as a last resort. 

Filming surfing in Hawaii, you have no control over lighting and must use ND's, but in a studio, you should be able to control the lighting, and dimmer lights are better on everyone.

I still have some 1500 watt tota lights I used in the early days of video camcorders. They fry everything in a small room.


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## Positron (Feb 26, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Your white balance is off because the 10-stop ND filter has a warming effect (my B+W 77mm and Schneider 82mm 10-stoppers do).



That doesn't sound very "neutral" at all! Do all 10-stoppers have that problem? And if so, why?


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## Kernuak (Feb 26, 2012)

Positron said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Your white balance is off because the 10-stop ND filter has a warming effect (my B+W 77mm and Schneider 82mm 10-stoppers do).
> ...


I haven't used them, but I think it is one of the pitfalls of the high stop ND filters. I've certainly come across similar reports with the Lee Big Stopper.


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## NormanBates (Feb 26, 2012)

when you're filtering a lot of light out, all ND filters have some color cast
my cheap tiffen have nearly no cast indoors, but they have some IR issues
http://www.similaar.com/foto/lenstests/lenstestsn.html
(the resolution tests, indoors, show no cast; the outdoor tests go green-ish as I increase filtration and stack glass; as shown there too, it's easily corrected by using custom white balance)

the higher-end tiffen NDs solve part of that issue, but again not all
http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2010/02/10/filtration-beware-of-the-reaper-of-cheap-glass/

and they're not extremely expensive, but not cheap either
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004W2NDIS/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=similaar-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B004W2NDIS


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## schemula (Feb 26, 2012)

Cornershot said:


> Actually, all cfl's do flicker or strobe. You can really see it on the cheaper lights and if your power source isn't good or your batteries are low. It also depends on the ballast they use.



These test pics are just my desklamp. I'm not using CFLs otherwise.

For the video I'm using one 650w and two 300w ARRI tungstens.

I'm going to exchange the ND filter for a less powerful one and try to avoid it by using the scrims and a softbox or maybe a 300w fill and scrimmed 300w key or something.

Last shoot was kinda rushed. Trying to plan out how to handle the next one.

I think all these 10 stop one have some sort of cast. The one I got is a nice B+W one, but, it's too much I think.

Avoiding it sound like a nice plan. I don't need to stay at f2.8, but do want some DoF effect.

Thanks, I got some good ideas/knowledge from this thread.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 26, 2012)

Positron said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Your white balance is off because the 10-stop ND filter has a warming effect (my B+W 77mm and Schneider 82mm 10-stoppers do).
> ...



I think so. 

Lee doesn't seem to publish transmission curves, but for the Big Stopper they warn, "U_se of the Big Stopper may result in a slight colour cast._" 

B+W does publish transmission curves (one reason I like them - you know, up front, what you're getting), and it's clear that with the 110 (10-stop) and to a lesser degree with the 106 (6-stop) filter, there's increased transmission in the red area of the spectrum. B+W calls this out in their description of the 106 stating, "_Because of its higher transmission in the red beyond 660 nm, this filter brings a slight warm tone to color photographs. If this effect is undesirable, a B+W UV-/IR-Blocking Filter 486 in front of the neutral density filter (not behind it!) remedies that situation._" For the 10-stop filter, they indicate that the warm tone is slightly stronger than with the ND 106.

You can see the warmer tone below, top shot is no filter, bottom is the 82mm 10-stop ND from Schneider Optics (parent company of B+W and the only 82mm screw-in 10-stop filter available, AFAIK). As you can see, I use the 10-stop to blur out the people walking through the shot, cars going by, etc.


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## Axilrod (Feb 27, 2012)

cinema-dslr said:


> you should leave your shutter on 1/60th



1/60th if he's shooting 30fps, but 1/50 for 24fps.


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## Positron (Feb 28, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Positron said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



That's actually pretty dramatic, but since it's very even across the frame I'd assume it can be pretty much completely corrected with a white balance adjustment. Personally, I actually like the colors on the bottom image more, but that's not the point. Did you use manual WB for those? I feel like auto would have picked up on such a large color shift.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2012)

Positron said:


> That's actually pretty dramatic, but since it's very even across the frame I'd assume it can be pretty much completely corrected with a white balance adjustment. Personally, I actually like the colors on the bottom image more, but that's not the point. Did you use manual WB for those? I feel like auto would have picked up on such a large color shift.



Actually, it was Auto WB (which I typically shoot because I always shoot RAW). But the difference in the camera-selected WB is minor - the no-filter shot was 5034 K and 0 tint, and the 10-stop ND shot was 4996 K and +4 tint. Setting them alike doesn't change the differential, although you are correct in that it could be corrected with a WB adustment. But in this case, I completely agree...I prefer the warmer tone anyway!


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## cinema-dslr (Feb 28, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> cinema-dslr said:
> 
> 
> > you should leave your shutter on 1/60th
> ...



As i see it the problem of the original poster was about the strobing effect due to higher shutter settings.
This has al to do with the freq. of the powergrid and nothing to do with the prefered shuttersetting for motionblur.
All light sourches directly connected to the powergrid will resonate at 60hz(50hz in europe) that is why if i'm shooting in the usa i would have to use 1/60th even when i'm shooting 25p.
Maybe that is the reason some people experience light flicker in the US when shooting 24p at 1/50th


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## Lyra Video Productions (Feb 28, 2012)

schemula said:


> ...it was nice and bright, and for some brain fart of a reason, turned the shutter speed up, and it was strobe and stutter looking.





cinema-dslr said:


> Axilrod said:
> 
> 
> > cinema-dslr said:
> ...



Maybe the OP can clear it up, but I'm pretty sure in this case he was talking about the stutter you can get from using very high shutter speed, not related to the grid. You'd even get this shooting outside. I shoot a lot at 1/50th (or 1/48th with magic lantern) and 24p and don't have trouble at all with tungsten or other constant light sources.


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## schemula (Mar 3, 2012)

Lyra Video Productions said:


> Maybe the OP can clear it up, but I'm pretty sure in this case he was talking about the stutter you can get from using very high shutter speed, not related to the grid. You'd even get this shooting outside. I shoot a lot at 1/50th (or 1/48th with magic lantern) and 24p and don't have trouble at all with tungsten or other constant light sources.



Yes my problem was specifically related to the faster than 1/60 shutter speed and not the lights. I upped the shutter speed to deal with the fact that my scene was a little too bright. I forget what I used, but it was in the 1/200 range and as long as the subject was still, it was ok, but any side to side movement, and oh man, awful.

The light kit I rent is an ARRI tungsten constant light source.

I've decided to buy the light kit and solve this from the light side. I was not happy with the ND filter color cast and while I may get a less drastic ND filter, I'm going to move to a softbox and scrims and maybe a dimmer or two to get control over the lights.

I'd like to stay under ISO 400 with a 1/60 shutter speed (or 1/50 for 24p) and in the 2.8 to 4 aperture range. But I think attacking this from the light side is going to be the way to go.

Thanks.


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## Lyra Video Productions (Mar 4, 2012)

schemula said:


> Lyra Video Productions said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the OP can clear it up, but I'm pretty sure in this case he was talking about the stutter you can get from using very high shutter speed, not related to the grid. You'd even get this shooting outside. I shoot a lot at 1/50th (or 1/48th with magic lantern) and 24p and don't have trouble at all with tungsten or other constant light sources.
> ...



Good decision, I think. And I think if you use a softbox that should cut enough light to not need ND inside. I find dimmers are helpful for adjusting back light--just keep in mind that when you dim tungsten it gets a warmer color temp so you may need to get a new white balance if you dim drastically. If you do any outside shooting at all though, you'll eventually want to get a variable ND so you can get those wide apertures in bright light.


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