# Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 25, 2012)

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<strong>Odds & Ends


</strong>A know source has mentioned a couple of things in regards to products coming in late 2012.</p>
<p><strong>Mirrorless Announcement

</strong>I’m told that Canon’s foray into the mirrorless world will begin in August with an announcement. Photokina is in September, so it makes a lot of sense to announce at the end of summer.</p>
<p><strong>New Full Frame

</strong>A suggestion that Canon will announce an “entry level” full frame camera in the fall of 2012. A true replacement to the 5D Mark II?</p>
<p>That would bring about 4 new full frame cameras in the span of about a year if we include the coming 4K DSLR. Most assume that will be a full frame camera.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## SomeGuyInNewJersey (Mar 25, 2012)

Presuming that the entrey level ff is not going to be a mega pixel monster I'd say it is unlikly we'll see Canon releasing a high MP direct D800 competitor this year.

With the 1dx, 5d3, the 4k dslr and the entry level dslr surely they wont also put out a $3k price range full frame MP monster this year as well?


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## JR (Mar 25, 2012)

so, not further word on a high MP camera yet CR guy?


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## Drama79 (Mar 25, 2012)

an "entry level" full frame? Anyone want to play guess the spec? Will this be the 7D2?

18 MPx

less FPS than 5D3

Single card

18 focal points

$2,200. 

That's my opening offer. What's yours?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 25, 2012)

This comes from someone that is probably the most accurate of any source with stuff months off from coming to market. Specs and the like are never decided this far in advance. I have heard there are multiple camera configurations in the wild right now.

If I had to wager, a 5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality. $1999 anyone?


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## Drama79 (Mar 25, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> This comes from someone that is probably the most accurate of any source with stuff months off from coming to market. Specs and the like are never decided this far in advance. I have heard there are multiple camera configurations in the wild right now.
> 
> If I had to wager, a 5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality. $1999 anyone?



Pretty much what I said - hooray for agreement! I think with the 5D3 at $3500, you've got a nice wide window below. If I were Canon, and looking at the 5D3 profits, you could probably sell it at $2500 and get your hand bitten off...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 25, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> This comes from someone that is probably the most accurate of any source with stuff months off from coming to market. Specs and the like are never decided this far in advance. I have heard there are multiple camera configurations in the wild right now.
> 
> If I had to wager, a 5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality. $1999 anyone?


 
Possibly a 5D MK II with digic V+


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## JR (Mar 25, 2012)

...but I really want a 5DX! I love the picture of the original post!


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## frisk (Mar 25, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> If I had to wager, a 5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality. $1999 anyone?



The question would be why people should buy that instead of a second-hand 5D2.

I have a feeling that there is something missing from the story.


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## CanonCameraFan (Mar 25, 2012)

A XXXd ff model?


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## gordo (Mar 25, 2012)

I was waiting for the new Canon 5DIII but the price killed it for me. The $2,000 price point is the sweet spot for me. My big worry is they will release the T4i before and I will jump too quickly.


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## hammar (Mar 25, 2012)

I think it makes sense with a cheaper FF, same sensor as 5D3 but without the AF, fps and build. Maybe even make it compatible with EF-S in some way


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## marc_o_ (Mar 25, 2012)

There is no room for a 2000$ FF: the 5dmk*2* is already at this place. 
Canon won't spend money (research, production lines, testing, advertizing...) and time to replace an award-winning, best-selling product such as the 5dmk2.

Next annoucements will be april and september, for june and november availabilities. Seems like a nice roadmap to me (Canon mirrorless for christmas, yay ;D). This will already be 4 major photography products (1D X, 5D3, 4K and mirrorless) in a single year.

I'm hoping for a mass megapixel FF and a sport-oriented APS-C (7D2 ?) announcements during Q1 2013.


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## PerfectSavage (Mar 25, 2012)

There's no such thing as an "entry level" full-frame camera...makes zero sense marketing/business wise. The Cine-DSLR will obviously be full-frame. I can see a market for a 1DsMkIII-esque studio replacement in terms of a 3D/4D high MP monster but not suggesting that is coming, however much more market for that than cannibalizing the investment Canon has made in the 60D, 7D (7D II) etc. with a $2,400 full frame camera...UNLESS it shot only stills which would make no sense really given phones are shooting 1080P video now. The 5D3 is the "entry-level" full-frame camera if you want to use that term; and the 1Dx is the flagship full-frame camera, certainly room in between them for a studio, high MP body. There will not be a 5DX, that was a creation of this site I think, not seen anything from Canon on a "5DX", the Cine-4K DSLR is not going to be in the 5D line, it is meant for an entirely different market, the market it was announced at, Hollywood, with the C-300. There will not be a <$3000 full frame camera from Canon this year, period...if ever.


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## PerfectSavage (Mar 25, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> There's no such thing as an "entry level" full-frame camera...makes zero sense marketing/business wise. The Cine-DSLR will obviously be full-frame. I can see a market for a 1DsMkIII-esque studio replacement in terms of a 3D/4D high MP monster but not suggesting that is coming, however much more market for that than cannibalizing the investment Canon has made in the 60D, 7D (7D II) etc. with a $2,400 full frame camera...UNLESS it shot only stills which would make no sense really given phones are shooting 1080P video now. The 5D3 is the "entry-level" full-frame camera if you want to use that term; and the 1Dx is the flagship full-frame camera, certainly room in between them for a studio, high MP body. There will not be a 5DX, that was a creation of this site I think, not seen anything from Canon on a "5DX", the Cine-4K DSLR is not going to be in the 5D line, it is meant for an entirely different market, the market it was announced at, Hollywood, with the C-300. There will not be a <$3000 full frame camera from Canon this year, period...if ever.



"There will not be a NEW <$3000 full frame camera from Canon this year, period...if ever" I meant


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## johnnyblues (Mar 25, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> This comes from someone that is probably the most accurate of any source with stuff months off from coming to market. Specs and the like are never decided this far in advance. I have heard there are multiple camera configurations in the wild right now.
> 
> If I had to wager, a 5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality. $1999 anyone?



Sounds awfully like the current 5D mark 2... :


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 25, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> There's no such thing as an "entry level" full-frame camera...makes zero sense marketing/business wise. The Cine-DSLR will obviously be full-frame. I can see a market for a 1DsMkIII-esque studio replacement in terms of a 3D/4D high MP monster but not suggesting that is coming, however much more market for that than cannibalizing the investment Canon has made in the 60D, 7D (7D II) etc. with a $2,400 full frame camera...UNLESS it shot only stills which would make no sense really given phones are shooting 1080P video now. The 5D3 is the "entry-level" full-frame camera if you want to use that term; and the 1Dx is the flagship full-frame camera, certainly room in between them for a studio, high MP body. There will not be a 5DX, that was a creation of this site I think, not seen anything from Canon on a "5DX", the Cine-4K DSLR is not going to be in the 5D line, it is meant for an entirely different market, the market it was announced at, Hollywood, with the C-300. There will not be a <$3000 full frame camera from Canon this year, period...if ever.



The 5D Mark II will remain current into the fall, and for the moment it's entry level. It also sells extremely well after all these years. Reports I have from a few retailers is sales haven't slowed since the 5D3 was announced. If anything there was a surge in sales. There is definitely a market for a $2000 full frame camera.


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## Bateman75 (Mar 25, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> New Full Frame
> 
> A suggestion that Canon will announce an “entry level” full frame camera in the fall of 2012. A true replacement to the 5D Mark II?


 is the 5Dmk3 not a true replacement? is a step up in the scale compared to MK2 or down compared to MK2


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## V8Beast (Mar 25, 2012)

The big question is, how do you market an entry-level full-frame camera? If I'm an entry-level consumer that equates image quality to megapixel count, I'd expect a $2,000 camera to have substantially greater resolution than a $500 Rebel.


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## Axilrod (Mar 25, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> "There will not be a NEW <$3000 full frame camera from Canon this year, period...if ever" I meant



Uhhh, the 5DII was $2699 originally, it's happened before, why is it impossible for it to happen again?


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## Janco (Mar 25, 2012)

marc_o_ said:


> There is no room for a 2000$ FF: the 5dmk*2* is already at this place.
> Canon won't spend money (research, production lines, testing, advertizing...) and time to replace an award-winning, best-selling product such as the 5dmk2.



I think I read somewhere that 5DII will be discontinued from sometime around the end of 2012. Don't remember where I read it. But I think it was from an official source, interview or other information. Anyway then would be place for a entrylevel-FF around 2000$.


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## pdirestajr (Mar 25, 2012)

My EOS Rebel G camera with a plastic mount and 3 focus points is "Full Frame" & can take L lenses!

I think Canon can easily make a full frame DSLR "entry level" if they want to.

I like how people act like a full frame 35mm sensor is the promise land, when in reality, it's just the old (small film) standard we're trying to get back to, and expect enlargements the size of billboards.

One day canon will make a full frame digital rebel and break boundaries- the same way they made the first affordable SLRs and first sub-1000 DSLRs.


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## pdirestajr (Mar 25, 2012)

Another thing:

Why would Canon make a 4K Cinema-focused DSLR, a DSLR?

Why the need for the "R"? and optical viewfinder? Isn't the camera always going to be in live view with the mirror up?

Isn't that a waste of cost and space? If photography is secondary on that camera, I don't get the design.

And why the 1 series body with vertical grip? So odd.

Wouldn't it make more sense as a mirror less camera that had an articulating EVF, an ergonomics more like a small medium format camera?


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## Nick Gombinsky (Mar 25, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> That would bring about 4 new full frame cameras in the span of about a year if we include the coming 4K DSLR. Most assume that will be a full frame camera.



I don't think it will be full frame. It wouldn't make sense. Super35 format has a 24,89mm width, while the height varies according to the aspect ratio (1:78, 1:85, 2:35). Making it full frame would make it an odd size, and wouldn't be able to use most of the PL lenses, since they're built for that image circle.
This is why the 7D is more used for low-end pro filming than the 5D (at least here in Argentina, and that's what I do for a living), the sensor size resembles more S35 than a "full frame" one.
At most, it'll be APS-H, as the RED cameras, which crop down to actual S35 when recording video.


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## nikkito (Mar 25, 2012)

well.... it makes sense
lots of megapixels + *entry level *camera 

if you get what i mean  ;D


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## lol (Mar 25, 2012)

To those saying why do we need an new entry level full frame when we have the 5D2, I think the point is the 5D2 can't be around forever. It is time to move on.

And why entry level full frame? In the very long term mirrorless will eat away at the low end APS-C models. I think DSLRs will survive, but will be pushed higher end where current mirrorless systems have not gone, excluding the odd ball Leica anyway.

Spec wise, there is little for Canon to cut from a 5D3. It has to move on from the 5D2 otherwise there's no point, but you can't squeeze the 5D3 either.

The easy guesses would be on Digic 5. Limited to up to perhaps 4fps. Sensor derived/recycled from 1D X or 5D3 depending on how they want to play the numbers game. AF... would they go as low as keeping the 5D2 system? Or perhaps put in a 7D like system? Body style, somewhere between the 7D and 5D3. I can't see the 5D2 body kept, but they might not offer all the trimmings of the 5D3.


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## Ricku (Mar 25, 2012)

A mirrorless is only interesting if it has a full frame sensor and great ISO performance.

I hope you read this, Canon.


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## CanonCameraFan (Mar 25, 2012)

Possibly stills only ff model?


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## Haydn1971 (Mar 25, 2012)

Yay ! Here comes the 9D after all ;-)

I'm still thinking a crippled 18mpx FF sensor from the 1Dx, with crippled AF in a 5DIII body... Priced lower than the better spec AF and speed 7DII which would remain as crop and who knows what Mpx


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## zim (Mar 25, 2012)

What’s CR2 - Mirrorless Announcement and/or New Full Frame? two new cameras, shouldn’t that be two separate CR2’s or maybe one mirrorless full frame EF!! Leica watch your back wohoo  If it’s a DSLR then forget the ‘entry level’ tag I still believe there is space for an amateur enthusiasts stills photographers FF, spec as 60D (9 cross-type AF points) lets call it a 6D


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## D_Rochat (Mar 25, 2012)

Putting the term "entry level" aside, I think it's going to be a high MP body. I believe it will be almost a stripped down version of the 5D III for studio/landscape. Higher mp, improved metering, basic AF system, basic weather sealing, 3-4fps blah blah blah. I just don't think the term "entry level" belongs in the xD line. It would simply be another body with a specific use. This also continues to convince me that the 7D is being pushed to the xxD line. I know it's not a popular opinion with some, but it makes sense to me. Nothing wrong with a weather sealed 7D rebadged as a 70D.....

EDIT - I don't know why, but a release price of $2800 sticks in my head.


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## Ricku (Mar 25, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> I believe it will be almost a stripped down version of the 5D III for studio/*landscape*.


Well, then it will be very important that the camera can produce a wide amount of DR. Preferably as good as the D800 DR.

I dont think Canon has the tech for this right now.


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## ruuneos (Mar 25, 2012)

Maybe 5D*X* with 30-50 megapixels for compete against Nikon's D800.


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## Fandongo (Mar 25, 2012)

marc_o_ said:


> There is no room for a 2000$ FF: the 5dmk*2* is already at this place.
> Canon won't spend money (research, production lines, testing, advertizing...) and time to replace an award-winning, best-selling product such as the 5dmk2.
> 
> Next annoucements will be april and september, for june and november availabilities. Seems like a nice roadmap to me (Canon mirrorless for christmas, yay ;D). This will already be 4 major photography products (1D X, 5D3, 4K and mirrorless) in a single year.
> ...



People are reluctant to buy a 3.5 year old camera.

Testing?? Thanks to the internet, they have a willing supply of worthy testers... for free.
Research? They already developed the digic 5+/sensors/etc., it's just a question of price point.

Canon advertises stupidly... Didn't see t2i adverts until the t3i was out.
Speaking of stupidity, remember the 7d, t2i, t3i, and 60d?

Clearly they have no problem with redundancy... hell, they flaunt it.

An entry level FF $2k (+/- a few hundred) DSLR will sell.


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## kalmiya (Mar 25, 2012)

A darn... I was finally thinking to go for the 5D II (entry level FF ^^) and now and rumor of a new entry level full-frame... darn - couldn't you have waited a month with that rumor ?


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## V8Beast (Mar 25, 2012)

If an entry-level FF camera pans out, it would certainly explain why Canon priced the 5DIII at $3,500. It would make for a great backup body as well for those using a 5DIII as a primary body. Maybe this will be the mega-resolution FF body people are waiting for. It would make a lot of sense to pack it full of MP, regardless of whether or not it improves or degrades IQ, since it would have to lure those accustomed to getting 18 mp Rebel for $500.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Mar 25, 2012)

frisk said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > If I had to wager, a 5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality. $1999 anyone?
> ...



Yeah, I don't see the point. Well granted Canon makes nothing from second hand sales, but why not just continue the 5D2 then? (I guess because they don't want to have to keep making the old sensor and old digics)

I would try to go for a 32MP cam, with 2x2 C300-type sampled true 1920x1080 res video in a crop mode, same AF, same 6fps, same everything the 5D3 has, priced $3500 and drop 5D3 to $3000. Although there are issues with that as well at this point, that might kill 5D3 sales unless they dropped it too low in price and it's probably just not in the cards this time. Probably talking 5D4 (i bet it arrives in 2 years instead of 3.5 years).


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## Stephen Melvin (Mar 25, 2012)

Hrm. How 'bout this?

5D Mk II build
7D autofocus unit
SD card only
36mp

With the same DiGIC chip in it, that puts it at 3.6 fps. The build quality is a big part of the expense of the Mk III, and the SD card makes it more "entry level."


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## stabmasterasron (Mar 25, 2012)

Entry level FF? Maybe T4i? As someone else suggested, mirrorless will start to eat out the bottom end of the dslr market. So going upscale is the only place left for dslrs. No mirrorless system has a large sensor, yet. 

It would be killer to see the 18mpix sensor from 1Dx in a T4i. Digic 5, 4fps (12 raw depth), ISO 6400, nice video functions. $1500 with kit lens.

The only question is are there enough Rebel buyers that are sophisticated enough to know the advantages that would be there for this kind of system. My guess is no. They look at the specs of this camera, see that it isn't a significant "number jump" from the T3i and see the extra cost - then jump ship to some mirrorless system.

So, do you make it the 70D?


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## Aglet (Mar 25, 2012)

I think they've definitely left the door open for another FF body to replace the 5D2. And it'll have to be different enough to be compelling.

Give it a price tag around $2500-2700, 
single Digic 5, 
3 to 4 fps at full res of... 
7680x5120. (39.3MP)
kitted with new, lower cost 24-105 IS zoom they patented last year.

Take some nice features off the 7D/5D3 but hobble it with another low-end AF system, maybe as good as the 7D's at best. Will make a great studio cam and will be able to do basic HD video with good IQ. Maybe 720p at 60fps.

Could work as a landscaper IF they can get past the pattern noise and bump the Dynamic Range up to better than the 5D3 - good luck with that if they stick with the tech they're using now. :-\

It'll be a below-the-belt blow to the D800 and maybe help satiate those of us heavily into Canon gear and thinking of moving over to the camera with the little red slash on its handgrip.

I'll be watching for it, patient and hopeful but with a pessimistic attitude born of continual disappointment.


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## Rocky (Mar 25, 2012)

5D III sensor (to minimize developement and production cost)
40D sensor ( keep the cost low, good enough is good enough)
60D built (keep the cost low)
Micro adjustable AF ( make the most out of fast lens)
That may get us a sub $2000 FF.


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## Trev (Mar 25, 2012)

I am a bit of a dinosaur and still shoot film. I would jump at an entry level full frame digital rather than the 5D mk 2 and the reason is simple. CF cards are coming to the end of their run. My local pro photo shop only stocks the very best CF cards and they are priced very steeply as it is an old technology consumers are moving away from. I am confident the camera would last me years, I am not confident about finding reasonably priced CF cards 4 years from now.


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## Terry Rogers (Mar 25, 2012)

I think I'll jump in with my two cents.

My entry lvl full frame would be...

5dmkii sensor (to cut costs as I'm sure they have decreased manufacturing costs over the years and it's still a wonderful sensor). Alternatively, 1dx or 5d3 sensor, which ever is less expensive to manufacture. Though I think the lower MP 1dx sensor would be more forgiving to cheap lenses.
Rebel quality body with an articulating screen.
Rebel quality AF system
3-4 fps
~96% view finder
EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS kit lens; or a new, inexpensive 28 - 85ish mm f3.5 - 5.6 IS lens with silent autofocus
Digic V
Single SD slot
Small rebel level image buffer
pop up flash (with speedlight control)

If all that could be priced for $1600 (or $1250 body only), I suspect consumers would be blown away by the image quality and low light ability as compared to current rebels.

In my opinion, such a camera would place the full frame digital world into the hands of the masses. I have no doubt Best Buy sales people could be instructed to sell all the advantages full frame offers over a crop sensor.


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## yuuko (Mar 25, 2012)

A true replacement for the 5D MK 2? I thought the the 5D MK 3 was the replacement for the 5D MK 2.


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## CrimsonBlue (Mar 25, 2012)

Trev said:


> CF cards are coming to the end of their run. My local pro photo shop only stocks the very best CF cards and they are priced very steeply as it is an old technology consumers are moving away from. I am confident the camera would last me years, I am not confident about finding reasonably priced CF cards 4 years from now.


I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that CF cards are slowly being phased out. They are still faster than SD cards by a good margin and they are a staple component with most photographers. 

Maybe in 4-5 years SD will have improved even more, but I think we'll see other technologies jump into the space (cue D800 specs) before seeing the end of CF.


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## thejoyofsobe (Mar 25, 2012)

It only makes sense to have a line of less-than-5D3 FF frame DSLRs out there. without it the only source of customers who NEED to purchase EF lenses are owners of $3500+ bodies.


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## Heidrun (Mar 25, 2012)

If it had 
36 mp
5 pictures pr second
96% viewfinder
Autofocus like 5D mk III
And iso up to 12800 
I would be very happy


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## justsomedude (Mar 25, 2012)

Heidrun said:


> If it had
> 36 mp
> 5 pictures pr second
> 96% viewfinder
> ...



I think we'll be seeing something close to this, although with that high MP an FPS burst of 3-4 will be more realistic. The d800 has certainly cramped Canon's style -- this "entry level FF body" is likely their response. 

I look forward to seeing what it is!


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## stabmasterasron (Mar 25, 2012)

justsomedude said:


> Heidrun said:
> 
> 
> > If it had
> ...



Really? This would be entry level? This would be different than 5D mk iii , but this rumor is talking about an "entry level" FF. I assume entry level means something less (in specs and price) than the 5Dmkiii. The camera you are describing is not a lesser camera than the 5Dmkiii. You are compromising fps, but increasing MP - to me an even trade.

I expect to start to see FF going much further down the food chain, to start to really differentiate the entry level dslr's from the mirrorless systems. I would not be surprised to see the day when all dslr's are FF and all mirrorless are aps-c sized sensors. Maybe this is canon's plan to keep the ef-s lenses useful - create an aps-c mirrorless system and make all dslr's FF. Just my 3 cents.


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## Doodah (Mar 25, 2012)

I like where Canon is going.


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## hammar (Mar 25, 2012)

Isn't there a problem with moving FF down in lower segments due to the EF-S lenses? I guess Canon wants to continue selling these for their xxD and xxxD?

Another question regarding SD and CF cards: I just ordered a Mark III and will have the option of continue using the CF cards I now use in my Mark II or start using SD (I have no reason to use both).

Should I buy SD or CF? I imagine CF cards are more durable? Only reason for SD as far as I know at this moment is that I can use them in my MBP.

Sorry for off topic


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## VASH1291 (Mar 25, 2012)

I would definitely love to see what Canon's mirrorless offering is going to be like.


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## c.d.embrey (Mar 25, 2012)

*I'm not interested in a Full Frame Mirrorless!*

For me, the main selling point of mirrorless cameras is the small size and weight. I see no advantage of a mirrorless camera for sports, BIF, etc, a DSLR would be better for these uses. 

A small/light APS-C mirrorless camera using APS-C only lenses, from 20mm to 85mm would be perfect for PJ, street, editorial portrait and fashion, event and all around hand-held photography. To me it makes no sense to have a 12 Oz camera (a Sony NEX 7 weighs 10.3 Oz) and a 36.16 Oz EF 85mm f/1.2 lens, YMMV.


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## c.d.embrey (Mar 25, 2012)

hammar said:


> Should I buy SD or CF? I imagine CF cards are more durable? Only reason for SD as far as I know at this moment is that I can use them in my MBP.



We shot some tests on Wed, the 21st. A class 10 SD card worked fine for both stills and video.


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## lintoni (Mar 25, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> There's no such thing as an "entry level" full-frame camera...makes zero sense marketing/business wise. The Cine-DSLR will obviously be full-frame. I can see a market for a 1DsMkIII-esque studio replacement in terms of a 3D/4D high MP monster but not suggesting that is coming, however much more market for that than cannibalizing the investment Canon has made in the 60D, 7D (7D II) etc. with a $2,400 full frame camera...UNLESS it shot only stills which would make no sense really given phones are shooting 1080P video now. The 5D3 is the "entry-level" full-frame camera if you want to use that term; and the 1Dx is the flagship full-frame camera, certainly room in between them for a studio, high MP body. There will not be a 5DX, that was a creation of this site I think, not seen anything from Canon on a "5DX", the Cine-4K DSLR is not going to be in the 5D line, it is meant for an entirely different market, the market it was announced at, Hollywood, with the C-300. There will not be a <$3000 full frame camera from Canon this year, period...if ever.



I have JUST bought a digital camera... the 5D3. The only reason I've got it now was because I've just come into a bit of money. I could've afforded a digital SLR previously, but not a full frame model and did not want an APS sensor camera. Personally speaking, I would've joined the digital bandwagon years ago if there had been a decent full frame SLR at an affordable (for me) price. Shooting stills only makes perfect sense - this would be a camera aimed at photographers. Talking about what an iphone can/can't do is irrelevant. Didn't I read recently about a 40+MP phone camera? How many photographers are going to be dumping their kit in order to use the camera attached to a phone?


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## Window Frame (Mar 25, 2012)

I wonder if/how this will affect video mode, if it's included.


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## itsnotmeyouknow (Mar 26, 2012)

If Canon came out with a budget ($2000) 36 mp camera I'm not sure that it would be a good idea. A scaled back performance model with a 36mp sensor. It ain't gonna happen (having said that I'm still picking pieces of hat out of my teeth after I told someone else on another forum that I'd eat my hat if Nikon brought out a 36mp D800 it didn't taste nice either! ). 

I'm not even sure I'd want it to happen. Diffraction and distortion anyone?


----------



## D_Rochat (Mar 26, 2012)

Ricku said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > I believe it will be almost a stripped down version of the 5D III for studio/*landscape*.
> ...



I agree about the DR. I don't believe the 5DIII is a true competitor for the D800 and I think this new one will be. I don't understand why you think Canon doesn't have the tech to build a high mp sensor with good DR. For all we know, they may have been working on one for quite some time and waiting to release it. 

People are getting too hung up on the term entry level. Think of it as a lower cost FF rather than entry level. A plasticky rebel type FF isn't going to make it into the xD line. This is their "Pro" line not consumer line. I believe this will be a direct D800 competitor and they will under cut Nikon's pricing and piss in their cornflakes. Their timing kind of sucks though.


----------



## Akil Ramiah Kahlil Ifill (Mar 26, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> justsomedude said:
> 
> 
> > Heidrun said:
> ...



I have registered to this forum only seconds ago and I have been reading for years.

A low cost full frame DSLR is the way to go.
Let's face it. Mirrorless cameras are the way forward for most companies.
Full Frame is the size of Film sensors used back in the day before they were even APS-C bodies.
Canon may be seeing years ahead in the future and made a decision to introduce more Full Frame making it more affordable thus separating the Pro's from the Amateurs....Also after many said that they will not introduce a mirrorless camera....Well, they are!

Canon won't be making as many Rebels as they did in the past and they must remain at the #1 position for Professional Camera users. Remember the 5D MKII broke many records when it was launched!

This will do the same!

Thank You for making me apart of this forum I love.


----------



## danski0224 (Mar 26, 2012)

Seems to me that Canon could easily take the current 5DII sensor and an AF system patterned after the 7D, stick it into the current 5DIII chassis, price it at a little less than $2k USD and have a winner...


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## hmmm (Mar 26, 2012)

*Can's Recent prices don't suggest a bargain FF, alas*

Everything lately from Canon -- from the G1X to the 24 and 28 USM IS -- to the 5DmkIII has been much more expensive than one might have expected. If there is new "entry level" FF I would be very surprised if it broke that pricing trend. Expect an 18MP ff with 9pt AF and digic V at $2.5K. Expect the new mirrorless -- if it has a G1X size sensor -- to be at $899 for body only. And expect the EF/ef-s adapter for it to be about $300.

That is just the way Canon pricing seems to be headed. I think the wish for a ff price breakthrough from Canon is bound for disappointment. Sure hope I'm wrong about it though...


----------



## stabmasterasron (Mar 26, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > D_Rochat said:
> ...



"A plasticky rebel type FF isn't going to make it into the xD line" - No, a rebel will not be called an xD, but that doesn't mean that Canon will not put a FF sensor in a Rebel, in fact I see it as inevitable. The Rebel is getting it's lunch eaten by compact mirrorless systems. Because those systems have equal IQ and smart looking compact bodies. The Rebels will have to try much harder if it is to survive as a dslr. One way to do this is to up the IQ with a FF sensor. The other would be to put a more sophisticated focus system in it and/or make it much faster. Either way, consumers win as better tech trickles down to the masses. 

I am not suggesting that this next "entry level" FF camera will be a Rebel. It might be an xxD series camera. Either way, it is an exciting time to be a photographer hobbyist, as technology is evolving quickly and becoming more affordable.


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## tron (Mar 26, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> This comes from someone that is probably the most accurate of any source with stuff months off from coming to market. Specs and the like are never decided this far in advance. I have heard there are multiple camera configurations in the wild right now.
> 
> If I had to wager, a 5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality. $1999 anyone?



5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality = 5D2.


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## D_Rochat (Mar 26, 2012)

dilbert said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > I agree about the DR. I don't believe the 5DIII is a true competitor for the D800 and I think this new one will be. I don't understand why you think Canon doesn't have the tech to build a high mp sensor with good DR. For all we know, they may have been working on one for quite some time and waiting to release it.
> ...



I think they made the D800 as a 5D competitor, but Canon took a slightly different path with the Mark III. I see the mk III as a do it all work horse, not just a studio or landscape camera. I think this upcoming body will be the answer to the D800 and the MP hungry crowd. I also think it will be closely price but under the D800. Under 2k is a dream.


----------



## D_Rochat (Mar 26, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > Ricku said:
> ...



Maybe, maybe not. I don't see the APS-C leaving the xxD line. I do see the APS-C leaving the xD line though. As long as they weather seal the 70D, there will be demand for a crop in that form. The APS-C isn't dead yet.


----------



## Stu_bert (Mar 26, 2012)

1DX Sensor 18MP
7D AF
7D Body
Digic V not+
<$1999K

I would guess Canon will see how the market responds. Sub $2K vs high MP. Higher volume and Canon's own response to Nikon's disruptive 36MP, while they develop their own MP monster for 2013.

They've already shown they will encroach on the 1DX by putting the AF into the 5D MK III, so I don't think they will worry about using the sensor in a cheaper body. But I think they will want to protect their MK III sales. So it will have a lower MP than the MK III

I think this will mark the end of the APS-C with a xD numbering and there will be no 7D MK II, this will be handled by a 70D in 2013. With Canon shifting their prices up, then the xxD range will come in at the old price of the xD.


----------



## stabmasterasron (Mar 26, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> stabmasterasron said:
> 
> 
> > D_Rochat said:
> ...




Only reasons for crop that i know of are:
-lower cost
-able to shoot with smaller, lighter lenses

Some people have suggested that APS-C has more reach. But why could this not be accomplished with cropping in post, or in camera. In fact, when EVF become good enough to displace optical view finders, maybe there will be a switch to switch between a full view and a more "zoomed in", aps-c type of view. You could even flange up an ef-s lens if you wanted to.
But as mirrorless become more capable, I see no reason for aps-c in full sized dslr bodies. I don't think that FF is the answer to all problems in dslrs. In fact, if given the choice between a 5dmkii and a 7d, for the way I shoot, i think a 7d is more useful - simply because of its speed. But now that a 5dmkiii is available, that camera is superior to either of the other two. 

As far as the people who are saying that canon is moving up in price on the 5d line - if I am not mistaken I believe the orginal 5d introd at somewhere around $3300 - in 2005! Now taking into account inflation, and the big improvements in noise, AF, speed, video - the fact that the 5d mk iii is "only" $3499 is a miracle. OK, maybe not a miracle, but certainly not an affront to humanity.


----------



## EOBeav (Mar 26, 2012)

My 2/5 of a nickel: The new FF they are speaking of will be a 7DmkII with Digic 5-ish and ~$1999USD. After that point, I see the Rebel and xxD lines being merged into one. There might not be a point anymore to have both. Only time will tell.

I picked up my 5DmkII over the holidays when it was <~$2kUSD and came included with a couple of nice freebies. I don't know how many of those were sold, but my guess is that, like me, many people were waiting for that price point.


----------



## stabmasterasron (Mar 26, 2012)

[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. I don't see the APS-C leaving the xxD line. I do see the APS-C leaving the xD line though. As long as they weather seal the 70D, there will be demand for a crop in that form. The APS-C isn't dead yet.
[/quote]

By the way, I don't think the demand is for aps-c, I think the demand is for a capable camera at a reasonable cost. If you dropped a FF sensor in a weather sealed 70D, i don't think the sensor size would impede sales.


----------



## squarebox (Mar 26, 2012)

Terry Rogers said:


> I think I'll jump in with my two cents.
> 
> My entry lvl full frame would be...
> 
> ...



My only problem with this is that it would totally destroy the EF-S lens market. Which is what they may want to do to stem the tide of losing customers to mirrorless cameras. Unless, they are making a mirrorless camera that takes EF-S lenses. If that is the case, then you could see Canon being a leader in the market.


----------



## stabmasterasron (Mar 26, 2012)

squarebox said:


> Terry Rogers said:
> 
> 
> > I think I'll jump in with my two cents.
> ...



As far as I know there were only 2 really high quality ef-s lenses made. The 17-55 2.8 and the 10-22 WA. All others were of lesser quality - not saying bad, just not L quality type lenses. So, yes, if Canon abandons aps-c, then these lenses will be lost. But I don't think aps-c is going anywhere. It will be in at least the next generation of Rebels (most likely). And possibly in a Canon mirrorless system. 

But I do think that in the long run, aps-c will become extinct in dslr bodies. Just no reason for it. Mirrorless aps-c systems have same IQ and are much more compact. To really have product differentiation, dslr's have to offer something different. Some compelling reason to take on the extra weight and bulk of a larger body. Right now, that argument is ruggedness and speed. But mirrorless will close that gap. Only place left to go is larger sensor. Compacts can't go full frame because then they would have to have much larger lenses, negating any gains in body compactness. Imagine 70-200 2.8 IS on a nex type camera. No way that would work out.


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## D_Rochat (Mar 26, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> By the way, I don't think the demand is for aps-c, I think the demand is for a capable camera at a reasonable cost. If you dropped a FF sensor in a weather sealed 70D, i don't think the sensor size would impede sales.



People still want the APS-C for many reasons. Cost is definatley one of them, but reach is the big one. Bird and other wildlife types like the extra reach at no extra cost. They can effectively turn a 400mm to a 640mm with the APS-C. Add a 1.4 converter and you have a 896mm reach or 1280 with a 2X. 

The APS-C brigade have explained why they still want and need one on this very forum many times. Then there is also the EF-S argument mentioned above. My heart won't be broken if they do away with that sensor, I just don't think it's going to happen yet. At least not on the xxD line.


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## XanuFoto (Mar 26, 2012)

The 5D MK II is still selling well. The 5D MK III has sold very well right out of the gates. So tell me why Canon needs to make a 36 mega pixel camera???


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## D_Rochat (Mar 26, 2012)

XanuFoto said:


> The 5D MK II is still selling well. The 5D MK III has sold very well right out of the gates. So tell me why Canon needs to make a 36 mega pixel camera???



I'm with you there and I'm just waiting to get the mkIII myself, but there is a market for high mp bodies. People will buy it.


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## XanuFoto (Mar 26, 2012)

There could be a market for high MP bodies. But most Nikon wedding photogs I know say they are sticking with the D700. So this market is limited to Landscape and Studio photographers. Most serious studio guys use MF and not many Landscape photographers are money owners. So I am not sure who these High Mp buyers will be.


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## Terry Rogers (Mar 26, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> XanuFoto said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D MK II is still selling well. The 5D MK III has sold very well right out of the gates. So tell me why Canon needs to make a 36 mega pixel camera???
> ...



Agreed. I'm sure Canon will be watching Nikon eagerly to see how the d800 does. If it does extremely well, it will only be a matter of time before canon releases their own megapixel monster. If there is significant money to be made in that market, then I'm sure canon will try and get a piece of that action. Then many of those who switched systems to buy a d800 might regret their short sightedness. 

If the d800 doesn't do well, Canon will be laughing all the way to the bank.


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## CatfishSoupFTW (Mar 26, 2012)

as unlikely as a entry level fullframe, i couldnt see what they could do. maybe remove AF points? i dunno :S but i wouldnt mind that at the same time, as long as its more than the usual 9.


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## stabmasterasron (Mar 26, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> stabmasterasron said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, I don't think the demand is for aps-c, I think the demand is for a capable camera at a reasonable cost. If you dropped a FF sensor in a weather sealed 70D, i don't think the sensor size would impede sales.
> ...



But that "reach" is only because the sensor is smaller. And the optics of the camera are set up for that smaller sensor. As I said before, when EVF's take over optical view finders (yes this will happen eventually), you can still have your "crop" sensor for free, with a crop mode on the EVF and the image being automatically cropped in camera if you want it to. 

But I understand that these changes may be a long way off. And for now, yes, the reach thing with aps-c is still valid. So for the time being, aps-c has more use than just cheapness. But when faced with the problem of differentiating dslr's from compact mirrorless, will Canon keep an aps-c around just for "reach"?


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## D_Rochat (Mar 26, 2012)

XanuFoto said:


> There could be a market for high MP bodies. But most Nikon wedding photogs I know say they are sticking with the D700. So this market is limited to Landscape and Studio photographers. Most serious studio guys use MF and not many Landscape photographers are money owners. So I am not sure who these High Mp buyers will be.



I've heard the same and the new mkIII makes for the must have wedding body as well, but there's got to be a reason why the D800 is Amazon's top selling camera (not just DSLR) right now. I won't buy a mp monster, but there are people who want them for what ever reason.


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## maxxevv (Mar 26, 2012)

Terry Rogers said:


> My entry lvl full frame would be...
> 
> 5dmkii sensor (to cut costs as I'm sure they have decreased manufacturing costs over the years and it's still a wonderful sensor). Alternatively, 1dx or 5d3 sensor, which ever is less expensive to manufacture. Though I think the lower MP 1dx sensor would be more forgiving to cheap lenses.
> Rebel quality body with an articulating screen.
> ...



You know, I have almost exactly the same idea !!! 

Give and take a few minor differences in overall specifications :

- Everything you'll find in a T4i ( AF, Buffer, SD card, pop-up flash, viewfinder specs, articulated screen etc, etc... )
- In order of probability in sensor used : 5dII, 5DIII, 1DX
- Body size of the 60D
- Limited video 1080p 30fps only (no other options)
- Digic V ( not the '+' version ) 
- US$1500 (body only) 

And it'll turn the market on its head once again like how the original 300D or Rebel did!!!


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## D_Rochat (Mar 26, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > stabmasterasron said:
> ...



Time will tell.


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## XanuFoto (Mar 26, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> XanuFoto said:
> 
> 
> > There could be a market for high MP bodies. But most Nikon wedding photogs I know say they are sticking with the D700. So this market is limited to Landscape and Studio photographers. Most serious studio guys use MF and not many Landscape photographers are money owners. So I am not sure who these High Mp buyers will be.
> ...


It will be interesting to see who these buyers are. Nikon definitely gave he razor away cheap and is hoping to make money on the blades (lenses and accessories). Whether these buyers will then sepnd the money of the accessories is the issue. The money is made on lenses and flashes.


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## Terry Rogers (Mar 26, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > stabmasterasron said:
> ...



The d800 has the same "reach" as a ~15mp crop camera (same pixel density). I believe that as processor power increases (digic VI?) and memory write speed increases, cameras will be able to handle 40+mp files at 7-8 fps. Alternatively, as nikon already does, offer an aps-c crop mode (dx mode), thus taking the strain off the memory and processor power to handle extremely large files. Such a camera fitted with an f/8 sensetive autofocus point would be an increadible wildlife/nature tool. The crop "reach" and pixel density when you put on your telephotos to shoot the wildlife (with the much needed f/8 autofocus point) and the massive resolution for landscapes. The best of both worlds. All you're sacrificing is low light sensitivity (and possibly diffraction induced softness, but that's a whole other topic). If low light is your concern, then buy a 5diii. Or, offer pixel binning in the 40+mp camera when shooting small raw files (20mp?) and you could conceivably increase the low light capabilities by another stop.


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## BestExposures (Mar 26, 2012)

This post has many parts, the bottom one is my review of the 5D3 after a week with it.

1st - Ummm, Correct me if I am wrong - but the 5D3 I am holding in my hand, isn't that the replacement for the 5D2, just as the 5D2 was the replacement for the 5D?

2nd note - I read about a new lens mount, not sure why Canon (or its clients for that matter) would support that kind of idea. If Canon is going to play games, and basically require us all to buy new glass - I can tell you now that I will, as many others will, leave the Canon brand. If on the other hand, they have two models, like they do the C300 - fine, let them do whatever they want. But I made a decision to go with Canon only a few years ago, and I can easily change my decision if they plan on forcing us to reinvest into glass all over again. I would like to ask other Canon owners to stand with me, refusing to buy into a new lens mount paradigm. I will actually go so far as to contact Canon owners and do a call campaign to keep them from that product.

I like your forum, been reading it for years now. This message is for the Canon R&D guys to read carefully, not against you, as I can tell by your comment that you feel the same way about the lens mount issue. I don't even want to have to use a converter - the more points of contact, the less weather sealed it will be. But at the very least, yes, there better be a converter. And it better be free if they are going to pull this crap on us.

part 3- As for the 5D3 - I am a HUGE fan. I have been playing with it for about a week now, and I have to admit that the tweaks are very significant. The 5D2, sitting next to it on my desk is a fantastic camera as it is, we all know that, but the 5D3 is obviously a product of many peoples input, and they took it all into consideration when they released this model. I would like to see the time restriction removed for US bound models - I understand the problem in the UK. But for me, that would be a fantastic programming update, even if it costs money, because when I am shooting a wedding, I have never once been happy to stop and restart the recording. The low light is at least 3-4 stops better, and the expanded ISO range (H2) is fantastic, its nearly night vision!! I have some sample pictures, unedited because adobe is still working on the file type - but it shows how crisp, clean, vibrant the images are. But I did find a flaw.... I have already on two occasions have the lens unlock and detach from the body without warning. Something that has NEVER happened to me on any body in the history of my life - happened twice in two weeks. I will let you all know what Canon says about this. I am also working on shooting video and stills side by side with the 5D2/5D3 to show the difference. I know its just a megapixel difference, and people who count MP's as the "end all, be all of human existence" - Ferris B., I would suggest they buy the newest Nokia camera phone with over 40MP's.... but I now understand what Nikon owners were saying about quality over quantity. This 22MP sensor is fantastic. I hope those of you who that are thinking whether or not to buy one, chose to get one. Not because I own stock (which I don't) but because you will very quickly realize, as I have, that this sensor is a whole new ball game, and Canon just hit a Grand-Slam. 

I don't use a lot of HDR, but the in camera HDR is actually usable. Sure, you can blow it out of proportions and make it nasty or hard to look at, but you can control the HDR down to a normal level, all without software. I shot a few pictures at the park, and the onboard HDR actually made the shot look like a medium format quality picture. Adding just a little to the image. Side by side with the original I can see how much just a little boost can do. Most of my previous dealings with HDR were not as great. But the fact that you can control the HDR - and use it wisely or go nuts with it, there are various degrees to choose from. When you add this to the various picture styles the number of outcomes is truly infinite. I also like the fact you can have more than 3 shots in the AEB settings. without picking up the camera two feet away I think its either 7 or 9 images... ok, ok, let me look here.... ok, its 7, but each can be up to /-3, so that can go from 9 to -9!!! and another option is multiple exposures - and that has up to 9. Haven't used that yet though. 

The number of AF points is fantastic - and although I will probably never use this, you can use them to display the electronic level in the viewfinder. Thats not useful to me, but maybe someone needs that... in any case, its neat. But the other, more normal uses for those AF points are much more important and useful. It even lets you have a different set AF point for landscape and portrait. I don't think the 6D2 had that, did it? 

The Dual cards are great, and they give you a lot of options on how to use them. I personally will use one as my primary, and one as a backup of my wedding shots when a corrupted card can get you sued. This way, before you ever back up your files, you already backed up all your files. FANTASTIC. But you can also use them so that one can playback while the other records, or auto switch when one is full. Two other options that I don't quite understand fully, gotta play with it more... aw shucks, I'm gonna hate playing with my brand new camera LOL

Sorry this is so long, being my first post I wanted to really JUMP IN and get yelled at by all of you at once  JK.

Jason
Best Exposures Photography
www.bestexposures.com
Chicago, IL 





Canon Rumors said:


> <div name="googleone_share_1" style="position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;"><glusone size="tall" count="1" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/03/mirrorless-camera-new-full-frame-coming-second-half-2012-cr2/"></glusone></div><div id="fb_share_1" style="float: right; margin: 0 0px 0 10px;"><a name="fb_share" type="box_count" share_url="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/03/mirrorless-camera-new-full-frame-coming-second-half-2012-cr2/" href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php">Share</a></div><div><script src="http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/connect.php/js/FB.Share" type="text/javascript"></script></div><div class="tweetmeme_button" style="float: right; margin-left: 10px; margin-bottom: 70px;"><a class="tm_button" rel="&style=normal&b=2" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/03/mirrorless-camera-new-full-frame-coming-second-half-2012-cr2/"></a></div>
> <strong>Odds & Ends
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rpt (Mar 26, 2012)

dilbert said:


> The balancing factor here is that less experienced photographers appreciate more megapixels for greater crop flexibility to compensate for their ability to not quite get the framing right all of the time.



So true! Frame it right. It isn't that hard once you know what you want - that is the hard part .


----------



## eijnaix (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm hopping canon comes up witha retro style mirrorless and a that beat FujiFlim X-Pro1 , totally impressed with their highly rated lens and IQ except their AF system......

I'm holding it back till year end before i get that bad ass x-pro1....hope canon can come up with something


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## Marsu42 (Mar 26, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> There's no such thing as an "entry level" full-frame camera...makes zero sense marketing/business wise.



It does make sense for Canon to keep people on their eos *platform*.

Some people here constantly advise crop users to use ef L lenses, but while they are usable they actually aren't made for aps-c. So with a crop body, when the 5d2 will be phased out it's the decision: 3500 bucks for a body to start with or a crop camara with ef-s lenses? And since the competition is closing in, many people might choose the third option and jump ship to non-Canon (mirrorless) or system cameras.

We all know a body is only the start of one's investment in photography: more and better lenses are sure to follow, and there's more money to be made for Canon here than from current mass-market entry level dslrs plus your average kit lens or one 15-85 upgrade.


----------



## x-vision (Mar 26, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> There is definitely a market for a $2000 full frame camera.



Yes ... and the 5DII covers this market already. 
It will also cover it during the holidays this year and in early 2013. 

After that, the 5DIII will start dropping in price and in 18-24 months will sell (like hotcakes) for $2500. 
When the price drops to that level (and below), it will leave room in the lineup for a new $3000-3500 body with 30+ megapixels. 

So, as other posters have said, no room for a NEW $2000 FF from Canon right now - and in the next four-five years. 
Who knows after that.


----------



## flangad (Mar 26, 2012)

mirrorless: micro 4/3 or nothing.
I'm affraid Canon won't chose this way... but i strongly believe they SHOULD do!


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## randplaty (Mar 26, 2012)

x-vision said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > There is definitely a market for a $2000 full frame camera.
> ...



The 5D2 is being replaced by this camera. That means that this camera will have everything the 5D2 has plus a few extra features. I think it'll be a 5D2 + high megapixel count + 7D AF for $2500.

The 5D3 will not drop in price that far. It'll probably get to $3000 but not below that.


----------



## sphax (Mar 26, 2012)

randplaty said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...




Well would that make sense ? I mean I think the 5DmkII is still selling pretty well, and specially a lot of people (including me) were waiting for the 5DmkIII annoucement to go FF, have been disappointed by the price of it, or not rich enough to afford it, and thus bought a 5DmkII that has been for 4 or 5 years described as the best camera ever, or something like this ... if they do some kind of update of the 5DmkII they'd disappoint most of the people who went straight to the mkII when finding out they couldn't afford the mkIII ! And I don't mention the fact that A LOT of photographers are really really fine with 9 AF points ...


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## D.Sim (Mar 26, 2012)

flangad said:


> mirrorless: micro 4/3 or nothing.
> I'm affraid Canon won't chose this way... but i strongly believe they SHOULD do!



And why is that? I'd be perfectly happy if Canon came out with an APS-C/FF mirrorless


----------



## elflord (Mar 26, 2012)

D.Sim said:


> flangad said:
> 
> 
> > mirrorless: micro 4/3 or nothing.
> ...



If they did MF, then they'd add to an already mature system, whereas if they do their own, we'll have yet another mirrorless system that has a limited lens selection (like all mirrorless systems besides m43). 

Personally, I don't care -- I'm happy with m43 regardless of what Canon does.


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## D.Sim (Mar 26, 2012)

elflord said:


> D.Sim said:
> 
> 
> > flangad said:
> ...



Thats sorta my point - why would Canon want to venture into the M4/3 system, rather than sticking with and using what they already have? m4/3 or nothing seems... counterintuitive.


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## psolberg (Mar 26, 2012)

doubt canon will cannibalize its best selling camera ever...the rebel. the next body is the 7d successor. No more full frame bodies on 2012. 8)


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## wickidwombat (Mar 26, 2012)

any point hoping for a rebirth of APS-H in the mirrorless?


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## sphax (Mar 26, 2012)

dilbert said:


> frisk said:
> 
> 
> > Canon Rumors said:
> ...



Sure about that second hand thing, weird to compare these.
And of course if they can sell it, they should, but don't you think it's way easier to just lower the price of the 5DmkII ?? That camera has been a killer for four years now, so I can honestly say that it would still be pretty damn good for some years as an "entry full-frame" !! What I wanna say is that if you need an "entry" full-frame camera and don't wanna go for the expensive mkIII, then it kinda means that you can deal with only 9 AF pts IMO ... Or maybe it's just about marketting and having the new fashion, anyway ...


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## nentraC (Mar 26, 2012)

Why would canon sale a 4 year old body (5DMK2) at a price below 2000€ if they can build a cheaper FF body at the same price tag whit a biger profit. (aluminum isnted of a magnesium aloy, a little bit mor platicky,...) it add's up.

Ok for the time being til the end of the year but i don't see it further. Like some of you said Canon can't sale a 4 year old body to new customers, just to upgrader who know what they want.

Oh or a FF T4i (crazy tought i know but i can dream) i think the 7d replacement will be FF like some of you sugested.

my 2 cents


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## sphax (Mar 26, 2012)

dilbert said:


> sphax said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



My MacBookPro is 3 years old and works just perfectly although I quite push him (architect stuff ...) so guess how good it would work if I'd buy it new right now ? Although it's "already" three years old. So as I said : it's all about the new fashion, not about what people actually need. If professional photographers used the mkII for "3.5 years" I guess nowadays it's just about perfect for who's not professional. Therefore for who needs an "entry" full-frame ...


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## Caps18 (Mar 26, 2012)

Release an 'entry level' medium format, high resolution camera...


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## nentraC (Mar 26, 2012)

sphax said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > frisk said:
> ...



In anny business it's just abut the mergins a company makes. Why produce a 3.5 years old DSLR wher the mergins drop whit evry price drop if u can build a new design for less $ and get higher mergins.

+ Canon can get a big WoW efeckt whit a "new entry level FF DSLR"
A company need's top end stuff at the cuting edge of technology so they hawe a WoW efeckt in the publick and the mid rage becomes a boost in sales.

I think the mid range has the perfect ratio of mergins and sales nubers so that Canon makes the most $ at the price range of 1200-2300$


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## sarsi (Mar 26, 2012)

On the contrary, I am hoping that Canon launched a EOS 3D instead of a entry level ff camera.


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## SK (Mar 26, 2012)

I hope it's 5D Mark III minus Video. I'm sure there are many folks who want excellent still image quality but not using video function of the camera.


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## sphax (Mar 26, 2012)

dilbert said:


> sphax said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



True about the taxes and investments for a company, but pretty wrong in reality : I shall change it whenever I cannot put the last software I need in it, or whenever it will begin to slow down. So far I can use this one and the latest version of Archicad and Photoshop without any problem. So the money you think I should put in a new computer, I used it to buy a printer that I didn't have yet !
Anyway I guess you're right, I can't buy this model anymore.


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## dooboo (Mar 26, 2012)

[/quote]
Well would that make sense ? I mean I think the 5DmkII is still selling pretty well, and specially a lot of people (including me) were waiting for the 5DmkIII annoucement to go FF, have been disappointed by the price of it, or not rich enough to afford it, and thus bought a 5DmkII that has been for 4 or 5 years described as the best camera ever, or something like this ... if they do some kind of update of the 5DmkII they'd disappoint most of the people who went straight to the mkII when finding out they couldn't afford the mkIII ! And I don't mention the fact that A LOT of photographers are really really fine with 9 AF points ...
[/quote]

Just because something is selling great does not mean the company should stop making a new product. For example, just because apple sell their iPad2 in millions now didn't stop them from making a new iPad.

I think as one of the poster said, price point of somwhere 2500-2700 is missing. That would basically put this so called new FF camera right between 7D and 5DMK3 from price point.

I was thinking the same thing maybe FF body with some of the 7D AF (19 points) and lower FPS (maybe around 4.5), Digic V, stick with 3" screen, single CF card slot, etc. and price it at around 2600 +/-100 USD. I think this will keep a lot of people happy.

Canon might throw a curveball just like when they announced 7D when everyone was expecting the 7D to be the 50D replacement...but bit later announced 60D. Who knows...maybe move the xD line to the FF and whatever 7D's replacement back into the xxD line.

I am sure Canon is watching how the sales of 5D3 is for next few months. Just because something is in development does not mean they are going to market it. If this is lower priced FF, you know it can't be better than 5D3 just 7-8 months later (if fall of 2012 is true). 

In the mean time, I better get snap happy and create more work.


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## Neeneko (Mar 26, 2012)

dilbert said:


> Because the entire camera is currently 3.5 years old.
> 
> Tell me what other electronic device you would buy "new" today that was released 3.5 years ago?



This gets into the split between consumer markets and professional or industrial markets. 

For instance, I used to work for a company that made a type of game system. Our customers generally had a 3 year software upgrade cycle, and maybe a 5-8 year hardware upgrade. In general we produced new hardware models every 2-3 years but kept producing ones for much longer because customers wanted them.

Though if you want to talk consumer equipment, look at video game consoles.  The Wii and PS3 are 6 years old, you can still buy them. The XBox360 is 7 years old, you can still buy them. The PS2 is 12 years old and you can buy them new.

Computers tend to be a bad example because the whole supply chain moves, it becomes more expensive to produce older models then newer ones, so there is no economic benefit to continuing to manufacturer something using older parts, which is why you tend to see these incremental 'oh, that chip is now more expensive, well, swap it out for the newer one and that is our release this year' ones. 

You tend to get this 3 year cycle time when you are dealing with either supply chain issues, or consumer upgrade fashions. Once you get away form those two areas you start to see things that stay in manufacturing a lot longer because industrial and professional work tends to be much more stable... not to mention more grounded in 'does this spec meet need X?' as opposed to 'oh boy, more Y!', thus buyers are less willing to pay for upgrades that do not actually benefit them in some 'demonstrable to accounting' way.


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## APBPhoto (Mar 26, 2012)

It hasn't even been 30 days since latest camera hit the streets, letting info about another FF camera leak out will help stop people considering switching brands but it also has to slow down sales of new product. Why wait 90 days to let the some of kinks get flushed out before starting the whole cycle of high hopes for the everything camera?


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## Neeneko (Mar 26, 2012)

APBPhoto said:


> It hasn't even been 30 days since latest camera hit the streets, letting info about another FF camera leak out will help stop people considering switching brands but it also has to slow down sales of new product. Why wait 90 days to let the some of kinks get flushed out before starting the whole cycle of high hopes for the everything camera?



This is why I am always a bit surprised at how camera manufacturers stagger their releases the way they do. Having multiple overlapping models with erratic release schedules is just begging for the osborne effect and is kinda why so many other industries usually update their entire line at once.


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## darryl (Mar 26, 2012)

Personally I just don't see where a new FF camera fits into canons lineup. People are talking about having it be like a 5Dm*2* but with digic 5 and better AF.... No offense but thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Everyone and there mom said I love my 5Dm*2* but the AF needs work, make a better AF and I'm buying it. Hmmm I wonder if there is a camera that is like the 5Dm*2* but has better AF.....Come on people. You would seriously cannibalize the 5Dm*3* market. And lets face it. Yes there are some people who just can't make that financial reach to the 5Dm*3* but there are just as many people who really would like a $2,000 FF camera but don't want a 4 year old camera and dish out the extra dough for the 5Dm*3*.

I think people like to guess what the newest camera will be based on what they want personally and not on what would work well in the market. To all the people who say that a new $2,000 slr FF would make a killing. Your right it would. It would kill the 5Dm*3*. Unless you can tell me a way to offer a new $2,000 slr FF that differs enough in specs from the 5Dm*3* that would justify a $1,500 difference between the cameras I'm calling shinanigans.


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## maxxevv (Mar 26, 2012)

darryl said:


> To all the people who say that a new $2,000 slr FF would make a killing. Your right it would. It would kill the 5Dm*3*. Unless you can tell me a way to offer a new $2,000 slr FF that differs enough in specs from the 5Dm*3* that would justify a $1,500 difference between the cameras I'm calling shinanigans.



Just fit the FF sensor into a suitably sized body and carry all the features, build quality of the upcoming new Rebel. Keep the framerate at <=3fps. And video functions of 1 generation ago. 

US$1500~$1999 is something which the market will most probably jump on en-masse like they did with the original Rebel all those years ago at US$999/- .


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## ssrdd (Mar 26, 2012)

these guys trying very hard to make us forget how bad is 5Dmk3. So this NEW rumor...


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## D_Rochat (Mar 26, 2012)

ssrdd said:


> these guys trying very hard to make us forget how bad is 5Dmk3. So this NEW rumor...



Would you care to explain how the 5D mkIII is a "bad" camera please?


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## itsnotmeyouknow (Mar 26, 2012)

Caps18 said:


> Release an 'entry level' medium format, high resolution camera...



I'd love Canon to do that. I have the Pentax 645D which is an "entry level" medium format high resolution camera that gives great definition and sharpness. Yes it was £6300 (equivalent UK price paid in Tokyo) but that's a good price for a great camera. Mine is waiting for repair because I used a sunsling which disconnected and dropped the camera. No big damage but a few buttons no longer work and the camera doesn't register the existence of the cable release


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## Neeneko (Mar 26, 2012)

Caps18 said:


> Release an 'entry level' medium format, high resolution camera...



That would indeed be wonderful. Given the rather strong second hand market for digial backs in the $2000-4000 range, I think it can be demonstrated that a demand exists, and Canon is good at producing things at a cheap price point.

I could see an entry level medium format view camera really reinvigorating things, I could easily picture a whole new generation of photographers enjoying such a camera. It isn't going to happen, but I can dream.

Realistically, it will probably be some small company that figures out a way to sell an entry level medium format view camera. The existing players have no incentive to bring their prices down, and the big consumer companies have no real incentive to expand into markets the average consumer has never heard of..... esp if they are going to increasingly go the 5D route of merging things into a single form factor.


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## itsnotmeyouknow (Mar 26, 2012)

Neeneko said:


> Caps18 said:
> 
> 
> > Release an 'entry level' medium format, high resolution camera...
> ...



If Canon were to enter this arena, then I'd fully expect the price level to be around the same as the P 645D. Don't forget you'd also need a whole set of lenses as the image circle on EF lenses would be too small as the sensor on medium format starts at 44mm x 33mm in comparison to 36 x 24. Also at the moment Live view is not possible in medium format as all the sensors are CCD although I don't think a CMOS would be too far off if the likes of Hasselblad, Phase One and Pentax support it. 

A medium format with 40+ mp Live View and even video at around $10k would fly off the shelves. I suspect the price would be twice that at least (and about 50% more on top in UK). There is an awful amount of money to be spent on r+d for CMOS as it is and that has to be paid for.


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## Basilius (Mar 26, 2012)

*Concerning the picture, which says "5DX"*

Concerning the picture, which says "5DX":

The reason why the 1DX has the "X" in its name, is because the 1DX is the tenth camera in the 1d(s)/5d lineup. So it wouldn't make sense to call it 5DX. (Because it isn't the tenth camera, perhaps the 12th...)

kind reagards
Basilius


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## unfocused (Mar 26, 2012)

Although I have found it's usually not a good idea to bet against CR Guy's sources, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the "entry-level DSLR" concept.

But, looking at it from Canon's perspective (not from the many wish-list comments I've read) I can see it under these circumstances:

Manufacturing three full-frame sensors is inefficient and ties up fabrication resources that can be better used for other purposes. So, instead of continuing to make the 5DII sensor, maybe it makes sense to switch to the 5DIII sensor (Assuming production costs of the new sensor are not much different than those of the older sensor)

Canon does like to re-use its sensors, as evidenced by the APS-C line, so having one sensor in at least two full-frame bodies makes some sense. 

Same with the DIGIC chip. Probably cheaper to just use the DIGIC V, instead of keeping an old chip alive.

Apparently, again judging by the APS-C lineup, the incremental cost of slightly different models is not significant, so perhaps Canon would like to stretch its full frame development costs over more bodies. 

Canon doesn't seem to be concerned about cannibalization of sales from one body to another (Again, note the clustering of features with the APS-C lineup) so they may not be concerned that a less expensive full frame will cut into 5DIII territory (They don't seem to be concerned that the 5DIII will hurt the 1Dx.) 

The question, I think, is autofocus. Do they recycle the original 5D autofocus one more time? Or, do they spend the money on a new autofocus that is improved from the 5DII but not up to 5DIII standards? I'm guessing the latter, just because they probably don't think they can get away with using the same old autofocus one more time. But, that does create new costs.

Then, it's just a matter of picking and choosing which features to leave off and which ones to keep. Probably a mixture based on the incremental costs/savings from each feature. One thing they definitely will have is video capability. Anyone who thinks we will ever see a stills-only camera again is crazy. The incremental costs of video are small, but the risk of lost sales by leaving it out are huge. 

So, maybe a rebranded 5DII with a 5DIII sensor and processor, possibly with a different autofocus or possibly with the same 5DII autofocus.

Price: I would say that without a new autofocus they might bring it in for $2,200. With a new autofocus, maybe closer to $2,500. I think an under $2,000 full framer is very, very unlikely. 

Will it replace the 7D? Not in a million years. This obsession that full-frame fanboys have with APS-C is just ridiculous. APS-C fills a much-needed niche that has only gotten more significant with the killing off of the APS-H sensor. 

Perhaps in five years the technology will have advanced sufficiently to offer an all-in-one DSLR that can shoot both formats, but it isn't there yet. 

There will definitely be a 7DII and there may even be a 7DX (Enthusiast version with add on grip/Professional sports and wildlife version with one-piece integrated body and grip).


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## bvukich (Mar 26, 2012)

*Re: Concerning the picture, which says "5DX"*



Basilius said:


> Concerning the picture, which says "5DX":
> 
> The reason why the 1DX has the "X" in its name, is because the 1DX is the tenth camera in the 1d(s)/5d lineup. So it wouldn't make sense to call it 5DX. (Because it isn't the tenth camera, perhaps the 12th...)
> 
> ...



The G1X wasn't the tenth G-series camera.


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## JR (Mar 26, 2012)

If a new FF is called 5DX, I surely dont think it would be an entry level. I would see the X more for a high MP new DSLR that would complement the current lineup - ok ok guys this is wishful thinking!


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## dooboo (Mar 26, 2012)

JR said:


> If a new FF is called 5DX, I surely dont think it would be an entry level. I would see the X more for a high MP new DSLR that would complement the current lineup - ok ok guys this is wishful thinking!



How about 5DIII...remove the Mark...leaving the "Mark" for higher end model. LOL

How about little bit of MKT strategy from the Dark Side...5D Mark IIIe or s or c or whatever...LOL


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## D_Rochat (Mar 26, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Will it replace the 7D? Not in a million years. This obsession that full-frame fanboys have with APS-C is just ridiculous. APS-C fills a much-needed niche that has only gotten more significant with the killing off of the APS-H sensor.
> 
> There will definitely be a 7DII and there may even be a 7DX (Enthusiast version with add on grip/Professional sports and wildlife version with one-piece integrated body and grip).



I can't speak for others, but my view on the 7D being pushed to the xxD series isn't based on being a FF fanboy. I don't have anything against the APS-C and believe it serves a purpose. However, I've said before that Canon seems to be restructuring the xD line and with the rumoured addition of 2 more FF models, the line seems to be getting a little heavy. That's not even mentioning the 2 extra 7D models you think the will create.

Lets say the 7D replacement comes with all sorts of upgrades that make it better than the mkI but it happens to be branded as a 70D. What's wrong with that? Why would the badge make it less desirable? 

Who really knows though. We could both be way off and Canon could throw another curve ball.


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## cptobvious (Mar 26, 2012)

My prediction: Canon will put the 5D2 sensor in a 60D-like (plastic) body, with 60D-like AF. I don't think a Rebel body would be big or weighty enough to balance with many EF lenses. If they put a FF sensor in a 7D body with 7D AF, I think it would cannibalize 5D3 sales.


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## Neeneko (Mar 26, 2012)

cptobvious said:


> My prediction: Canon will put the 5D2 sensor in a 60D-like (plastic) body, with 60D-like AF. I don't think a Rebel body would be big or weighty enough to balance with many EF lenses. If they put a FF sensor in a 7D body with 7D AF, I think it would cannibalize 5D3 sales.



Rebel bodies have no trouble balancing EF lenses. I still use a 300D for most of my shooting and it handles just fine with EF lenses including some rather large ones I use.


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## unfocused (Mar 26, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Lets say the 7D replacement comes with all sorts of upgrades that make it better than the mkI but it happens to be branded as a 70D. What's wrong with that? Why would the badge make it less desirable?
> 
> Who really knows though. We could both be way off and Canon could throw another curve ball.



Well, certainly it doesn't matter what any model is called. My (over)reaction is to the minority of commenters who seem to feel that the bigger the sensor they have the more of a photographer they are. 

For the sake of argument though, I just don't see Canon re-branding the 7D as a 70D. Manufacturers don't usually take an existing product and down-brand it. They've spend the last 2 1/2 years building the 7D brand and have done a very good job of it. The 7D is a very well-positioned product that has had remarkable success and customer satisfaction. Having invested a significant amount of resources into the brand, I don't see them throwing it away.

However, you are right about the curve balls. Canon has thrown so many in the past year, I really will not be surprised by almost anything they might do.


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## takoman46 (Mar 26, 2012)

I think that if Canon brings an entry level FF body to the line up, it will be significantly crappier than even the 5DmkII. Since the 5DmkIII is obviously the successor to the 5DmkII, then an "entry level" body should logically be placed at a bar below the 5D line in performance and build quality. I wouldn't get my hopes up that this new entry level FF camera will be all that impressive. I'd expect disappointments in ISO performance, resolution, image quality, continuous shooting, and AF system at the minimum compared to the 5DmkIII. I also wouldn't be surprised if it is even set a bar below the 5DmkII in terms of ISO performance, resolution, and image quality. It also would make sense for Canon to price the camera lower than $2000. Maybe this will fill the 7D price point and the 60D successor will inherit the 7D's strengths and come in at a price point just under the new entry level FF camera?


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## Terry Rogers (Mar 26, 2012)

Well, certainly it doesn't matter what any model is called. My (over)reaction is to the minority of commenters who seem to feel that the bigger the sensor they have the more of a photographer they are. 

[/quote]

I'm not sure who the commenters you are reffering to are that implied a larger sensor makes them a better photographer. However, a larger sensor does offer several advantages that gives photographers more tools to work with. Namely, more bokeh with similar framing with the same apeture compared to a crop camera. Generally better high iso noise performance. Larger pixel size, minimizing lens imperfections and motion blur compared to a high pixel density crop camera. Do these make someone a better photographer, of course not. Do they allow more creative freedom under difficult shooting conditions? Definitely.


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## studio1972 (Mar 26, 2012)

PerfectSavage said:


> The Cine-DSLR will obviously be full-frame.



Surely it will not be full frame. The C300 isn't, after all.


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## tron (Mar 26, 2012)

I do not believe we will see an entry level FF. 5DmkII is doing fine! 
There is no point replacing it with something different mainly in ... the name!
A high megapixel camera would be perfect for studio and landscapes and prevent people from switching to Nikon. 
Also it is about time for a new high end APS-C camera (7DmkII ?)


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## lecoupdejarnac (Mar 27, 2012)

It does sound very strange with the 5DII still selling.

Unless the "entry level" full frame is also a mirrorless camera. That would be really interesting.


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## itsnotmeyouknow (Mar 27, 2012)

lecoupdejarnac said:


> It does sound very strange with the 5DII still selling.
> 
> Unless the "entry level" full frame is also a mirrorless camera. That would be really interesting.



that would really be a curveball. I wouldn't expect it, though. You'd have tp think about what lenses you would use espcially regarding flange distance etc


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## stabmasterasron (Mar 27, 2012)

takoman46 said:


> I think that if Canon brings an entry level FF body to the line up, it will be significantly crappier than even the 5DmkII. Since the 5DmkIII is obviously the successor to the 5DmkII, then an "entry level" body should logically be placed at a bar below the 5D line in performance and build quality. I wouldn't get my hopes up that this new entry level FF camera will be all that impressive. I'd expect disappointments in ISO performance, resolution, image quality, continuous shooting, and AF system at the minimum compared to the 5DmkIII. I also wouldn't be surprised if it is even set a bar below the 5DmkII in terms of ISO performance, resolution, and image quality. It also would make sense for Canon to price the camera lower than $2000. Maybe this will fill the 7D price point and the 60D successor will inherit the 7D's strengths and come in at a price point just under the new entry level FF camera?



How could it be crappier than the 5dmkii? This new entry level ff will either have the sensor of the 5dmkii (unlikely) or from the 5dmkiii or 1dx(also unlikely, i think), or it will have a completely new sensor. So if it has one of the other, current sensors and digic 5, it will be at least equal in iq to those corresponding cameras. If canon makes a new sensor, why would they make a sensor crappier than the 4 year old sensor from the 5dmkii? I don't see how any new ff camera, entry level or not would take a step backwards from the 5dmkii.


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## Musouka (Mar 27, 2012)

All the talk about an entry-level FF camera without video had me thinking.

Sony was first out of the gate with a $2000 FF camera back in August 2009 in the form of the A850. Wonder why it hasn't taken the market by storm... It also was the last FF camera from Sony to date.

A quick eBay search returned 2 results only; priced at $1600 (BO) & $1725 (Package).


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## nentraC (Mar 27, 2012)

lecoupdejarnac said:


> It does sound very strange with the 5DII still selling.
> 
> Unless the "entry level" full frame is also a mirrorless camera. That would be really interesting.



your comment got me thinking it could be the:

"Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]"

should be

Mirrorless Camera "a" New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]

whit a great video all time AF couse thers no miror in the way.


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## ssrdd (Mar 27, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> ssrdd said:
> 
> 
> > these guys trying very hard to make us forget how bad is 5Dmk3. So this NEW rumor...
> ...



its *best* for the stills, but not for video, even after 3years of its big brother..
i have been playing with it since i got one, and very much disappointed, it might be 0.5% improvement in video.
in dslr video segment , it seems nikon started the revolution and it took over it agin with d800. 5d's are all in between.

I don't use it for stills though.


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## Heidrun (Mar 27, 2012)

Terry Rogers said:


> Well, certainly it doesn't matter what any model is called. My (over)reaction is to the minority of commenters who seem to feel that the bigger the sensor they have the more of a photographer they are.



I'm not sure who the commenters you are reffering to are that implied a larger sensor makes them a better photographer. However, a larger sensor does offer several advantages that gives photographers more tools to work with. Namely, more bokeh with similar framing with the same apeture compared to a crop camera. Generally better high iso noise performance. Larger pixel size, minimizing lens imperfections and motion blur compared to a high pixel density crop camera. Do these make someone a better photographer, of course not. Do they allow more creative freedom under difficult shooting conditions? Definitely.
[/quote]


The bigger the sensor is. The more wide angel i can get


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## nentraC (Mar 27, 2012)

ssrdd said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > ssrdd said:
> ...



I just dont know when Nikon started the revolution in DSLR video, couse i tought Nikon released the D700 and it vas a great DSLR but a month or two later Canon released the 5d2 and had a great video funktion and it destrojed the D700 in sales just because of the video and its quality (ok not just video but the overall package)

So im not realy sure Nikon started the Video revolution inDSLR's


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## takoman46 (Mar 27, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> takoman46 said:
> 
> 
> > I think that if Canon brings an entry level FF body to the line up, it will be significantly crappier than even the 5DmkII. Since the 5DmkIII is obviously the successor to the 5DmkII, then an "entry level" body should logically be placed at a bar below the 5D line in performance and build quality. I wouldn't get my hopes up that this new entry level FF camera will be all that impressive. I'd expect disappointments in ISO performance, resolution, image quality, continuous shooting, and AF system at the minimum compared to the 5DmkIII. I also wouldn't be surprised if it is even set a bar below the 5DmkII in terms of ISO performance, resolution, and image quality. It also would make sense for Canon to price the camera lower than $2000. Maybe this will fill the 7D price point and the 60D successor will inherit the 7D's strengths and come in at a price point just under the new entry level FF camera?
> ...



It makes sense for it to be crappier than a 5DmkII if it is an "entry-level" FF camera. The term "entry-level" means exactly that. The "5D" line is not "entry-level" right? So it would be outlandish to think that the "entry level" FF camera would outperform the 5DmkII. Although the 5DmkII is 4 years old, it is still only 1 generation old so it is impossible for Canon to add another FF camera to the lineup that is deemed "entry level" but yet outperforms a higher end FF body that is likely still widely used by many many photographers. Let me put it this way... think back on all the technological advances in the overall DSLR lineup. Did a T3i have better image quality than a 40D? No because the T3i is "entry level" and the 40D is 1 generation older but yet one step higher in the lineup of APS-C bodies. In fact even the 20D would beat out a T3i in image quality and that's even further back in tech! So it seems like wishful thinking for an "entry level" FF camera to be equal to or better than a 5DmkII right?


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## sphax (Mar 27, 2012)

dilbert said:


> The entry level FF camera only has to be inferior to the 5D3. Thus it could be almost identical to the 5D2.



So they're gonna develop a brand new product that has "almost" the same properties of the 5DmkII ??? ... Just for people to buy it a bit more because it won't be a 4 years old design ??? ... That sounds like a huge investment for a small difference in sales !


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## danski0224 (Mar 27, 2012)

sphax said:


> So they're gonna develop a brand new product that has "almost" the same properties of the 5DmkII ??? ... Just for people to buy it a bit more because it won't be a 4 years old design ??? ... That sounds like a huge investment for a small difference in sales !



Well, I see $3500.00 USD as a pretty steep price point for a hobbyist. I paid ~$2500 USD for my 5DII, and it was a stretch.

If they had something to market at the ~$2000.00 USD price point, and if it was equal to the 5DII for image quality, it will sell.

In comparison to my old EOS 620, which was my last "full frame" camera, I do not see any problems with the 5DII AF system. Those migrating from a current "low end" DSLR will not feel the same way. Canon will have to improve the "entry level full frame" AF system from the 5DII and yet keep it far enough away from the 5DIII.


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## takoman46 (Mar 27, 2012)

dilbert said:


> takoman46 said:
> 
> 
> > It makes sense for it to be crappier than a 5DmkII if it is an "entry-level" FF camera. The term "entry-level" means exactly that. The "5D" line is not "entry-level" right? So it would be outlandish to think that the "entry level" FF camera would outperform the 5DmkII. Although the 5DmkII is 4 years old, it is still only 1 generation old so it is impossible for Canon to add another FF camera to the lineup that is deemed "entry level" but yet outperforms a higher end FF body that is likely still widely used by many many photographers.
> ...



What you just stated doesn't make any sense in the benefit to Canon in sales. If a new camera offers around the same performance as the 5DmkII at a similar price... then why would people buy it? They would just keep using the 5DmkII. So if Canon were to do exactly what you stated, they would have to spend a lot of money in developing, testing, producing, and marketing a different camera that would hurt their existing 5DmkII sales (since they are keeping the 5DmkII in production in the forseeable future). Note that Canon has not indicated that the 5DmkII will be discontinued when the entry level FF camera becomes available.


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## itsnotmeyouknow (Mar 27, 2012)

takoman46 said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > takoman46 said:
> ...



It would have to be inferior to the 5D3 in some sense as otherwise you would have many disgruntle mkIII owners (me being one of them) if a supeior model was cheaper. I wouldn't be surprised to see a FF version of the 7D. They might even call t the 7D mk II or 7DX


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## nentraC (Mar 27, 2012)

dilbert said:


> takoman46 said:
> 
> 
> > It makes sense for it to be crappier than a 5DmkII if it is an "entry-level" FF camera. The term "entry-level" means exactly that. The "5D" line is not "entry-level" right? So it would be outlandish to think that the "entry level" FF camera would outperform the 5DmkII. Although the 5DmkII is 4 years old, it is still only 1 generation old so it is impossible for Canon to add another FF camera to the lineup that is deemed "entry level" but yet outperforms a higher end FF body that is likely still widely used by many many photographers.
> ...



I think you just nailed it! +1 to you


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## danski0224 (Mar 27, 2012)

takoman46 said:


> What you just stated doesn't make any sense in the benefit to Canon in sales. If a new camera offers around the same performance as the 5DmkII at a similar price... then why would people buy it? They would just keep using the 5DmkII. So if Canon were to do exactly what you stated, they would have to spend a lot of money in developing, testing, producing, and marketing a different camera that would hurt their existing 5DmkII sales (since they are keeping the 5DmkII in production in the forseeable future). Note that Canon has not indicated that the 5DmkII will be discontinued when the entry level FF camera becomes available.



What if Canon discontinues the current 5DII?

Canon could use the current 5DIII sensor, a morphed 7D-like AF system and maybe something like no video. Throw in a current Digic5 and lower the FPS.

Then, put it all into a current chassis and sell it as a new model for $1595. The 5DII (or, another new model variant) could still be sold including 5DIII-like video features at the $1995 price point. This is actually pretty easy to do because most changes are in the firmware. Heck, Canon could include the hardware (video jacks for example) but disable it through the firmware. If you want to upgrade your "basic" FF camera, send it in to enable the firmware. This elimiantes 2 production lines and parts groupings. Win Win, as long as the firmware upgrades are possible in the future, even for second or third hand equipment. Just like computer software, there would be a point where upgrades on old gear is not possible. 

Those that need what the 5DIII offers will buy that model instead. Therefore, it will not cannibalize 5DIII sales, but rather gain sales from those that can't swing or justify the 5DIII price point but still want the full frame experience... and more importantly, may be willing to choose a different brand.

Increased production of the 5DIII sensor only lowers costs and increases market share. 

I predict that a ~$1500 basic full frame camera aimed at pictures and no (or limited) video would sell like hotcakes. What brand will release one first?

If Canon wants to increase market share, they need to do this. Once someone is invested in accessories, making a brand switch is more difficult.


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## sphax (Mar 27, 2012)

So if you sum up all of those last thoughts you had here a lot of people believe that Canon is gonna put in the market a new FF which would be better than the 5DmkII but priced around 2000$ ... I wonder how they can do that indeed, as for me the only option they have is to be better in some points (AF, processor) and worse on some others (body construction) in which case it shouldn't discontinue the sales of the 5DmkII as people could chose "do I want a better AF or a stronger body" ... 
Or maybe I'm wrong and they have some magic trick to pay for development of something better than 5DmkII and really cheaper ... but I seriously doubt it ! Why ? Can I state here that you should see the latests announcements on "better-ization" of Canon equipments ? :

- Canon 5DmkII > 5DmkIII = roughly from 1900€ to 3300€ (sorry, I'm european)
- Canon 24-70L > Canon 24-70L II = from 1200€ to 2400€
- Canon 28mm F1,8 > Canon 28mm F/2,8 IS = from 450€ to 850€
- Canon 24mm F/2,8 > Canon 24mm F/2,8 IS = from 420€ to 850€

And those were all old designs so i'm pretty curious about how they can right now make something better than 5DmkII for even cheaper than the actual 5DmkII price .... !!!!


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## danski0224 (Mar 27, 2012)

sphax said:


> so i'm pretty curious about how they can right now make something better than 5DmkII for even cheaper than the actual 5DmkII price .... !!!!



Utilization of existing components for a new model.

More parts made = lower cost per part.

Better amortization of R&D into new part.

Who knows what Canon's actual cost per unit is? Maybe, the 5DIII costs them $2k USD to make, they sell it to dealers for $3000 USD and fix MSRP at $3499. Just a guess, I have no idea. 

If Canon sells another FF camera with the 5DIII sensor, body and most of the innards, the cost of manufacturing each 5DIII just went down, so profits increase as long as sales are still made to distributors.


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## sphax (Mar 27, 2012)

danski0224 said:


> sphax said:
> 
> 
> > so i'm pretty curious about how they can right now make something better than 5DmkII for even cheaper than the actual 5DmkII price .... !!!!
> ...



Well yeah you can always make some kind of Frankenstein camera from different cameras ;D
But I guess you'll always have to develop some new once and then the price of development will have to be covered by the number of sales of course, because if you don't develop ANY new pieces how come that's a "new design" that people will wanna buy ?


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## birdman (Mar 27, 2012)

New entry level FF camera? C'mon Rumors. You must be itching for a little more traffic. 

I absolutely do NOT believe it.


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## danski0224 (Mar 27, 2012)

sphax said:


> Well yeah you can always make some kind of Frankenstein camera from different cameras ;D
> But I guess you'll always have to develop some new once and then the price of development will have to be covered by the number of sales of course, because if you don't develop ANY new pieces how come that's a "new design" that people will wanna buy ?



Frankenstein camera? I think not.

Just repackage the parts already being made.

Apple does the same stuff with the iPad. Do you *really* think there is an extra few hundred dollars worth of stuff in there from low end to high end?


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## sphax (Mar 27, 2012)

danski0224 said:


> Apple does the same stuff with the iPad.



Well everyone says here that this "entry-FF" should be more or less the same quality as the 5DmkII so you can't really compare : Apple just made a nice "four-times" multiplication on its screen resolution ... !

Anyway I think globally I just don't see the point of an entry FF who'd be about the same thing as a 5DmkII but re-designed, that's all.


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## danski0224 (Mar 27, 2012)

sphax said:


> Well everyone says here that this "entry-FF" should be more or less the same quality as the 5DmkII so you can't really compare : Apple just made a nice "four-times" multiplication on its screen resolution ... !
> 
> Anyway I think globally I just don't see the point of an entry FF who'd be about the same thing as a 5DmkII but re-designed, that's all.



And that's all Apple provided is a nice screen. Worthwhile to some? Sure. The added processing speed and battery are directly related to the screen requirements. Apple did NOT include Siri in the New Ipad, for example. So, other than the display and the stuff to run the display, there is (gasp) nothing new, yet people are lining up to buy it. (glad the smite thing is gone )

But, I do believe you missed my iPad point. The prices range from $499 to $829. The only changes are internal memory and Wi-Fi or Wi-Fi + 4G.

Do you really think there is $330 in extra parts in there? (hell no)

Do you really think they are making 6 different physical versions? (possible, but not likely)

Canon could do the same thing with a "re-vamped" "entry level" "5D" lineup.

They have the sensor. They have a current camera body. Different features enabled by processing can be disabled or locked out.

So yes, I really believe Canon could offer a stills oriented "new 5D" for $1499 if they wanted to. If the firmware side was upgradeable to enable video stuff, people would buy it. Same for AF features available within a given module.


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## danski0224 (Mar 27, 2012)

itsnotmeyouknow said:


> It would have to be inferior to the 5D3 in some sense as otherwise you would have many disgruntle mkIII owners (me being one of them) if a supeior model was cheaper. I wouldn't be surprised to see a FF version of the 7D. They might even call t the 7D mk II or 7DX



Not superior, different.


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## sphax (Mar 27, 2012)

danski0224 said:


> sphax said:
> 
> 
> > Well everyone says here that this "entry-FF" should be more or less the same quality as the 5DmkII so you can't really compare : Apple just made a nice "four-times" multiplication on its screen resolution ... !
> ...



Ah ok then for that that's for sure that Apple is screwing people when you buy versions with more memory. Everyone knows that. Just buy the basic 16Go + WiFi it's far enough (although not really with the new screen but anyway, photo forum !)



dilbert said:


> Repeat after me:
> 
> "The 5DmkII is 3.5 years old"
> 
> ...



The 5DmkII is 3.5 years old
The 5DmkII is 3.5 years old
The 5DmkII is 3.5 years old


new autofocus and sensor and most likely new body shape also or it would be not a really new design ... well, sorry but that sounds pretty expensive to me  Anyway time will tell who's right ! I bought 5DmkII and I'm freakin' happy about it


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## darryl (Mar 27, 2012)

> So yes, I really believe Canon could offer a stills oriented "new 5D" for $1499 if they wanted to. If the firmware side was upgradeable to enable video stuff, people would buy it. Same for AF features available within a given module.



No offense but that's dumb. If the product is capable of being able to do video with just a software change people will hack it and you will have video on that "still only" camera in less than a year. Magic latern. Go wiki it.

Also I think the current market trending is offer more in one product. Not less. The more one thing can do the bigger you're market becomes. Less production cost and bigger market. Win win. The 5DII made a revolutionary killing because it offered not just stills but video. People who don't care about stills bought it for the video. People who don't care about video bought it for the stills. You snagged 2 markets with just one product.


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## grahamsz (Mar 27, 2012)

I suspect a cutdown mk3 would be cheaper to produce than keeping the mk2 around. If Canon can standardize on a new Digic and on the single 22MP sensor than that'll likely save them money in the long run versus keeping the other one around.

Still I do feel like the mk3 is maybe more of a 3D than it is a 5D. I suppose in my mind I think the 5 series is a little more cutting edge and the 1s and 3s are the more refined, polished and better built big brothers. 

Another thought, how many bad pixels can a sensor have before Canon will trash it? I assume all dslr sensors have some number of black or hot pixels like an LCD might - canon most likely detect them and map them out. However I presume at some threshold, that becomes unacceptable in a pro level product. Perhaps if they dropped the resolution with some pixel binning, then could make an 11MP full frame rebel with the discarded 22MP sensors.


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## danski0224 (Mar 27, 2012)

darryl said:


> No offense but that's dumb. If the product is capable of being able to do video with just a software change people will hack it and you will have video on that "still only" camera in less than a year. Magic latern. Go wiki it.
> 
> Also I think the current market trending is offer more in one product. Not less. The more one thing can do the bigger you're market becomes. Less production cost and bigger market. Win win. The 5DII made a revolutionary killing because it offered not just stills but video. People who don't care about stills bought it for the video. People who don't care about video bought it for the stills. You snagged 2 markets with just one product.



No offense taken.

Sure, it can be hacked. I know a little (very little) about Magic Lantern, and I have no interest in it.

There are plenty of hacks or jailbreaks out there. Not everyone will take advantage of those things.

There is almost continual mention on this forum about stills and video. Some want one or the other and fewer want both.

I think that is a very logical point to provide a price break. Whether or not the logic carries through in real life, I have no idea.

I can say that if I got just the 5DIII sensor, better AF than the 5DII but not equal to the 5DIII, FPS equal to the 5DII, stick it in a 7D body so the buttons are the same and no video for ~$1500.00 USD, I'd be all over it.


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## daniemare (Mar 27, 2012)

I like this rumor. Drop a full frame sensor in a 70D body (assuming the 70D will be the usual evolutionary upgrade from the 60D, i.e. Digic 5 etc) and I will buy it in an instant. Do not really care whether its the 1Dx or 5DIII sensor.

Smaller body, built in flash, similar quality AF and weather sealing. Price $2,500 with usual kit lens. Thus $1,700 body only - heck do not even sell it body only, and get those Rebel users to upgrade. I see only minor need to rework the sizing of the view finder (doesn't even need to be 100%) and AF point spread.

Who said full frame must be pro or semi pro lumps of metal with the submersive abilities of a submarine. I use a Rebel, would love to gain the advantages of a full frame sensor, but as a pure amature and hobbyist, blazing frame rates, perfect AF tracking etc. isn't really necessary if it means I can save a bunch

I will not mind a price point engineered full framer. Canon did that with the Rebel, why not shake up the full frame market.

I cannot afford/justify a 5DIII, nor do I like the idea of a brand spanking new 3.5 year old product. In any case the 5DII & 5DIII is too big and lack a pop up flash for my uses.

The "extra" functionality from Rebel to 60D or 7D is not enough to warrant an upgrade for me. I know the 7D is fundamently different, but that is just it, I have no need for that which sets it apart. Now a REBEL FULL FRAME - that will be something I can upgrade to.


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## itsnotmeyouknow (Mar 27, 2012)

danski0224 said:


> sphax said:
> 
> 
> > Well everyone says here that this "entry-FF" should be more or less the same quality as the 5DmkII so you can't really compare : Apple just made a nice "four-times" multiplication on its screen resolution ... !
> ...



Where would be the advantage for Canon creating a weak link enabling people to hack into the firmware enabling it to shoot video? Surely there is no point having the ability if you weren't going to use it anyway? The best way to stop the hackers getting access is not to give access in the first place.


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## AJ (Mar 27, 2012)

If this is true - the 5D3/1Dx sensor with its gapless microlenses in a tuned-down body with less AF capability and single card slot (5D2)

then

the 5D3 should have been called 5Dx or 3D, and the new entry-level camera the 5D3.

Something seems wrong....


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## darryl (Mar 27, 2012)

Lots of rumors on where a new FF would fit in. Here is my take.

FF sensor in a mirrorless - Most likely of all the rumors

FF sensor in a rebel with rebel specs - Plausible but not likely

FF sensor in a 7DII - No way. You'd lose burst rate and reach. Two things that make the 7D popular today.

FF 5DMII makover - Nope... would start tredding into 5DMIII territory

FF dumbed down version of 5DMIII - Lets talk a little about this one


Initially I thought no way. This is stupid. You would definitely take sales away from the 5DMIII. Then I started to think about it. The choice of upgrading to the 5DMIII is either a yes I will or no I'll wait for something else. When people wait canon doesn't make money. You want people to upgrade. Especially if it took you 3.5 years to put out an upgrade. That is alot of time and many people would look at that and say its time for an upgrade. While I think this is more plausible than origanally I know they certainly wont release it any time soon. Right now we are still in the "early adopter" stage. Still too soon to tell how well the 5DmIII is going to do. If it doesn't do well, there is going to be a very large market that wants to upgrade their gear but doesn't have an outlet. Thats where something like a dumbed down version of 5DMIII comes in. Or you cut your prices and take a hit that way. Could be interesting.


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## stabmasterasron (Mar 28, 2012)

takoman46 said:


> stabmasterasron said:
> 
> 
> > takoman46 said:
> ...



So let me get this straight. 40D and 20D have higher iq than t3i. This is because t3i is an "entry level" cam and 40D and 20D are the next level up. Dont mean to poke a hole in your logic, but 60D and even 7D have the exact same sensor as the t3i. And I have seen many reviews, and even dpreview, says the iq between these 3 cameras are essentially identical - same sensor, so makes sense. So if I follow your logic then the 20D has better iq than the 7D. I am not saying you are wrong - maybe it does, but the 7D is certainly not bellow the 20D in the pecking order of Canon cams.


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## stabmasterasron (Mar 28, 2012)

Wow, lots of different opinions on here about what this rumor means - lots of heated discussions and it is still not a confirmed product.

Lots of people think dropping a FF sensor into a lesser body would undercut sales of the 5dmkiii. Well, do the rebels undercut sales of the 60D? Probably. Does the 60D undercut sales of the 7D, maybe somewhat. Different people have different levels of money they are willing to invest in camera equipment. If Canon's dslr offering started at the 60D, yeah they would sell many more 60D's, but they would lose many, many more customers who are not willing to pay the fee where the 60D starts. 

Bigger sensors at lower price points - this will definitely happen - sooner or later. As dslr bodies lose ground to smaller mirrorless systems, something has to be done to offer a superior product and a reason to buy a dslr over a mirrorless system. Some on here have said that FF sensor doesn't make you a better photographer. Well maybe it doesn't but there is no doubt that there is a strong correlation between image quality and sensor size - I don't think anyone will disagree with that. Higher image quality may not make you a better photographer, but it surely won't hold you back. And it might be the edge dslr's need to fend off the mirrorless for a little while longer.


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## stabmasterasron (Mar 28, 2012)

darryl said:


> Lots of rumors on where a new FF would fit in. Here is my take.
> 
> FF sensor in a mirrorless - Most likely of all the rumors
> 
> ...



FF in a mirrorless - I don't think so. Why? Because the idea of mirrorless is to miniaturize everything right? So if canon releases a mirrorless, it likely would be a compact body. FF requires larger lenses because the lens needs to project a larger image circle. So FF mirrorless would be small body and large lens. The ergonomics on this would be a nighmare. I too like the idea of having a compact FF, but having a beer can attached to a deck of cards probably won't work out well.

FF in a Rebel - probably not with this next round of rebels, but eventually yes.

FF in sub 5D mark iii - if the "entry level" ff rumor is true, this will be the case. My guess is that it will be an xxD camera, not an xxxD camera.


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## stabmasterasron (Mar 28, 2012)

AJ said:


> If this is true - the 5D3/1Dx sensor with its gapless microlenses in a tuned-down body with less AF capability and single card slot (5D2)
> 
> then
> 
> ...



No one said we were going to get a tuned down 5D3. Any more than the t3i is a tuned down 7D. They share the same sensor, but the 7D is a vastly different, more capable camera.


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## wickidwombat (Mar 28, 2012)

I think if there is going to be another FF this year it's going to be an uber MP monster not a bargain basement one


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## maxxevv (Mar 28, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> FF in a mirrorless - I don't think so. Why? Because the idea of mirrorless is to miniaturize everything right? So if canon releases a mirrorless, it likely would be a compact body. FF requires larger lenses because the lens needs to project a larger image circle. So FF mirrorless would be small body and large lens. The ergonomics on this would be a nighmare. I too like the idea of having a compact FF, but having a beer can attached to a deck of cards probably won't work out well.
> 
> FF in a Rebel - probably not with this next round of rebels, but eventually yes.
> 
> FF in sub 5D mark iii - if the "entry level" ff rumor is true, this will be the case. My guess is that it will be an xxD camera, not an xxxD camera.



If you look at what Leica has done with their manual lenses for the M9 and wrap a AF USM motor around them, are they likely to be as big as EF lenses of equivalent maximum aperture ? 

One of the reasons why EF glass has to be that big is because of the lens backplane to focal plane of sensor. The further it is, the bigger it has to be. For a mirrorless system, this distance can in theory be reduced to almost zero. Practically, about 1mm. Current EF lenses and EF-S lenses is in the range of 20-35mm. M4/3 lenses about 12-20mm. Leica somewhere in there. Flange distance does not directly co-relate to the backplane distance, though it will have some influence in the overall scheme of things. 

But it is not very likely for now that the Canon mirrorless will be FF. Too big a jump for the market to accept and also, the limited range of lenses that's specifically designed for such a 'high-end' mirrorless camera to take-off successfully. It will possibly carry the same sensor as the G1x if market penetration is the objective. However, if Canon decides to do something that turns the market on its head, and grab some of the Leica 'halo', a FF mirrorless system is not out of the question either, they have the sensors as well as the resources already. Just need to create additional adaptor mounts that allow the use of EF and EF-s lenses with full AF functionality on such a camera. 

As for a sub-5dMkIII, that's very unlikely if the market differentiation is to be achieved. For Canon, 'entry' means the lowest spec's that the market is willing to accept. And that was the same thing that prompted the creation of the original Rebel. It had the 'minimum specifications' which the market was willing to accept for the targeted market prices of sub US$1000/- back then. For this case, as it is now, the entry specifications is more or less what the current or upcoming Rebel carries if the target market price is to be US$1500-US$2000 ( which I assume is the market threshold for a 'basic' FF DSLR here). The 1100D is below 'entry' for most people, which it shows in comparison when you look at the numbers moved/sold compared to the current and past Rebel models.


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## stabmasterasron (Mar 28, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> stabmasterasron said:
> 
> 
> > FF in a mirrorless - I don't think so. Why? Because the idea of mirrorless is to miniaturize everything right? So if canon releases a mirrorless, it likely would be a compact body. FF requires larger lenses because the lens needs to project a larger image circle. So FF mirrorless would be small body and large lens. The ergonomics on this would be a nighmare. I too like the idea of having a compact FF, but having a beer can attached to a deck of cards probably won't work out well.
> ...



Yes, as i was writing my previous post, I thought of the Leica, and even wrote something about it, but erased in before I posted. It was explained to me that Leica can get away with small lenses because they are manual focus and the camera is a rangefinder. Not sure how being a rangefinder effects lens size, that is just what I was told and I never had the motivation to look any further into it. And I don't know anything about the backplane focal distance issue - I will take your word for it.

Sub 5dmkiii - I didn't not mean it would be a 5Dsomething. I meant it would be a lower specification than the 5Dmkiii - which "entry level ff" should mean by definition. Whether it makes it into something called a rebel or rebel like in specification - we will see.


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## takoman46 (Mar 28, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> takoman46 said:
> 
> 
> > stabmasterasron said:
> ...



Ok so I did a test with a 20D, 50D, T3i, and 7D shooting the same image a while back and came to my conclusion. I'm not sure if what you say is true regarding the 7D, 60D, and T3i sensor and I will have to look into that for myself. I find it very hard to believe that they all share the identical sensor. So my findings were that the 50D actually had almost identical image quality to a 7D with all the same settings. The 7D just had about 1.5-2 stops better ISO performance than the 50D. The 20D has much lower resolution at 8.2 megapixels so the resolving power is not even close to the other 3 cameras and I saw a noticeable difference in image quality between the 20D, and 50D/7D. However, the T3i just sucked horribly compared to the 20D, 50D, and 7D. My cousin has a T3i so when I get a chance, I'll take another set of comparative shots to post here. I don't my 20D, 50D, and 7D anymore though. Would you settle for 5DmkII or 5DmkIII shots? lol. I'll have to call around to see if any of my friends have a 60D or 7D for comparison. Btw, the original comparison was shot with the EF 50 f/1.2L with available sunlight on a cloudless day at ISO 100 with a tripod on all cameras. All cameras were set to identical f/stops, shutter speeds, white balance, faithful color profile, center point focus, and Raw format, throughout the range of the tests.


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## wickidwombat (Mar 28, 2012)

dilbert said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I think if there is going to be another FF this year it's going to be an uber MP monster not a bargain basement one
> ...



Too true, but its not just the D800 on its own it's target audience being primarily landscape togs means the D800 + 14-24 Nikkor make it a formidable combo at a reasonable price


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## DarkKnightNine (Mar 28, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> This comes from someone that is probably the most accurate of any source with stuff months off from coming to market. Specs and the like are never decided this far in advance. I have heard there are multiple camera configurations in the wild right now.
> 
> If I had to wager, a 5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality. $1999 anyone?




What would be the point of such a camera? Don't we already have the 5D Mark II to fill those shoes? The only things anyone were really looking for in the Mark II to Mark III upgrade were the frame rate, AF and build quality. The problem was everyone was expecting it two years ago. After fours of waiting, most were disappointed that Canon didn't use that time innovate instead fixing the obvious.


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## DarkKnightNine (Mar 28, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> PerfectSavage said:
> 
> 
> > There's no such thing as an "entry level" full-frame camera...makes zero sense marketing/business wise. The Cine-DSLR will obviously be full-frame. I can see a market for a 1DsMkIII-esque studio replacement in terms of a 3D/4D high MP monster but not suggesting that is coming, however much more market for that than cannibalizing the investment Canon has made in the 60D, 7D (7D II) etc. with a $2,400 full frame camera...UNLESS it shot only stills which would make no sense really given phones are shooting 1080P video now. The 5D3 is the "entry-level" full-frame camera if you want to use that term; and the 1Dx is the flagship full-frame camera, certainly room in between them for a studio, high MP body. There will not be a 5DX, that was a creation of this site I think, not seen anything from Canon on a "5DX", the Cine-4K DSLR is not going to be in the 5D line, it is meant for an entirely different market, the market it was announced at, Hollywood, with the C-300. There will not be a <$3000 full frame camera from Canon this year, period...if ever.
> ...




Craig, with that being said, what have you heard about sales for the 5D Mark III? Am I a sucker for being an early adopter? I get the feeling they aren't going to sell as many as their marketing people would like at the present price point and will eventually have a huge reduction in price (remembering Sigma's goof with the SD1). Canon has gotta a whiff of their own "shiite" and arrogantly thinks it's Channel No. 5. 


IMO, the 5D Mark III is overpriced for no other reason other than Canon thinks they can get away with it. Nikon took a more realistic approach with the pricing for their D800 and it seems like they care more about their customers than trying to milk them with minor overpriced upgrades.


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## DarkKnightNine (Mar 28, 2012)

Aglet said:


> I think they've definitely left the door open for another FF body to replace the 5D2. And it'll have to be different enough to be compelling.
> 
> Give it a price tag around $2500-2700,
> single Digic 5,
> ...




Being a Canon user these days means that we wait for years to be disappointed. I sold my 1D Mark IV to cover some of the cost of my 5D Mark III. The thing is I'm still not sure if I got a better camera out of the deal. Only time and shooting with it will tell. On paper I should be thrilled, but in the studio I'm just not thoroughly convinced yet. 


It seems like Canon lacks imagination. Even the C300 could have been so much more. They could have hit the ground running with that camera but instead they chose to craw into Hollywood with features already available from other manufactuers at a cheaper price. Like the new 5D Mark III, the C300 seems outrageously overpriced in this market for what it brings to the table. There's nothing in the specs that looks to the future. Instead everything seems to look to fixing what wasn't there from the past. That's why I say Canon lacks imagination. At the very least they could have included USB 3.0 (of even better Thunderbolt) connectivity in the Mark III and 1DX. They could and probably should have included an XQD memory card slot like the D4. That would have made me think they were looking toward the future. 


At this point it seems like Canon's strategy is to make us another 2-4 years to add something simple like USB 3.0, add another $500 to the price tag and call it the 5D Mark IV.


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## DarkKnightNine (Mar 28, 2012)

pdirestajr said:


> Another thing:
> 
> Why would Canon make a 4K Cinema-focused DSLR, a DSLR?
> 
> ...




Yes that would make perfect sense, which exactly why Canon is probably NOT going to make it. ;D


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## pakosouthpark (Mar 29, 2012)

OMG seriously?????? i've been waiting for this!! but i was going to buy the 5dmk2 anyways!! now i have to wait!! anyone have any ideas to when its expected the entry level full frame??


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## D_Rochat (Mar 29, 2012)

pakosouthpark said:


> OMG seriously?????? i've been waiting for this!! but i was going to buy the 5dmk2 anyways!! now i have to wait!! anyone have any ideas to when its expected the entry level full frame??



It's just a CR2 with very little and vague information. You could be waiting a long time just to be disappointed. The 5D II is still a great body and it's available now.


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## ssrdd (Mar 29, 2012)

nentraC said:


> ssrdd said:
> 
> 
> > D_Rochat said:
> ...



You might wanna check D90 which is the first dslr started 720p video recording, then the rest of....


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## Vikmnilu (Mar 29, 2012)

Dear all,

first post ever here! Quite interesting topic, as I am planning to upgrade my 10 D (yes, still with that one  soon. IN fact I almost bought a 5D mark II last night, but I lost the auction... anyway

In my opinion, an "entry level" full frame would be something like the actual 600 D with maybe some specs from a higher model (e.g. 60D-7D) but with a full frame sensor maybe taken from a mark ii or mark iii.

I kind of have different opinion about what is this entry level, it depends if it refers to entry level to FF if you are already a phtographer or to get into FF without an idea of photography. I think both are compatible, but Canon may want the second most, or both 

I am sorry, I do not see any sense (for someone who is just an amateur) in paying 2000 euros for a camera, even if it is considered here as cheap. It is true that I am actually willing to pay that myself nowadays, but after some time thinking and some years taking pictures. An entry level in that sense for me would be less than 1000 euros or max 1500 euros. I dont see any casual photographer pay more than that for a camera. Maybe some do though 

I think it is maybe not feasible, but if it has the specs of a 600 D I dont see its value higher than 1000-1200 euros.

So I guess I wil go for the mark II anyway.. or if I get crazy enough for the mark III and hoping that will last for life..... hei, if the 10D has lasted 7 years and I bought it already used.. why not? 

Cheers from Finland!

Victor


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## samirachiko (Mar 29, 2012)

The 5D MK3 is amazing! ;D However the price is scary. Tooooo expensive!!!!  If I were rich I would take it immediately. This type of camera is for a narrow niche of people. If they will make a full frame really cheap, in my opinion, they sell a lot of it. However, the 5d mk3 disappointed me a lot for the fact that he hasn't a swivel screen: after all these years of waiting this was a really important feature for a camera like this...


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## D_Rochat (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm glad they didn't put one on. It's just a feature that I'll never use and has the potential to break.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 30, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> I'm glad they didn't put one on. It's just a feature that I'll never use and has the potential to break.


A full metal body has the tendency to break, too, if you throw it under a truck. So it's about circumstances and a bit careful usage - and since I got a 60d I don't see how I could break the screen if I only turn it in safe circumstances. And if the screen is turned towards the camera for protection, it's even safer for transport in something other than a soft cushioned camera bag.


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## briansquibb (Mar 30, 2012)

Looking at other manufacturers recent offerings, we may be in for a ff Canonet priced about $1500


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## x-vision (Mar 30, 2012)

dilbert said:


> I'm somewhat puzzled by Nikon's approach to pricing of the D800. I'd really like to know how they kept it at that price when it should have gone up.
> 
> I suspect they're doing one of two things:
> 1) selling with a really really low margin
> ...



The 5DIII will very likely drop to $3000 as early as this fall, thus matching the D800 in price. 

When this happens, do you think:
1) Canon will be selling the 5DIII with a really low margin 
2) The 5DIII will be a loss leader 
3) Even at $3000, Canon will still make a hefty profit 

If you think the correct answer is 3), why do you feel 1) and 2) apply to Nikon but not Canon ??? ?
Also, do you think the 5DII, currently selling for $2200, is a loss leader for Canon?


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## elflord (Mar 30, 2012)

D.Sim said:


> Thats sorta my point - why would Canon want to venture into the M4/3 system, rather than sticking with and using what they already have? m4/3 or nothing seems... counterintuitive.



To make a compact mirrorless, they'll need to create a new mount. Flange distance of EF and EF-S doesn't work for a compact mirrorless.


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## sandymandy (Mar 30, 2012)

New Mount really sux if one day all they got is mirrorless. What to do with my lenses


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## Marsu42 (Mar 31, 2012)

x-vision said:


> The 5DIII will very likely drop to $3000 as early as this fall, thus matching the D800 in price.



... and at the same time, the D800 will drop $500, too.

I don't think the 5d3 will ever sell at the exact price as the competitor, because this would be the proof that Canon overestimated their new body and/or underestimated Nikon in the first place and their marketing department won't allow this to happen.


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## itsnotmeyouknow (Mar 31, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > The 5DIII will very likely drop to $3000 as early as this fall, thus matching the D800 in price.
> ...



At the moment the D800 is going *UP* in price in the UK. They have increased the price by £200 saying that the first price was an error. That was what the dealer I bought the mkIII from told me.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 31, 2012)

itsnotmeyouknow said:


> At the moment the D800 is going *UP* in price in the UK.



Interesting to know - so maybe it'll contradict Canon "the 5d3 is worth the price tag" marketing the other way around soon


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## Mulder (Apr 1, 2012)

i was waiting for the 5d3 and wanted it to be my entry into the FF world. all my lenses make much more sense on FF (as do all L lenses anyway). what I did not know is that it has no remote flash capability built in like my current 60D has and that is one feature that I got used to so well. somehow i always thought that the 5D has an IR transmitter build in to control external flashes... that really is a no go for me as I don't want to have a frankestein camera, it also takes a lot of spontaneity when at home. I want flash on, or flash off and no fiddle with devices in between. there is a huge price gap between the 5d3 and the 7d, enough room for another FF cam. maybe they release the 7d2 and a 7d2s, one with crop, one with ff sensor!?


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## Marsu42 (Apr 1, 2012)

Mulder said:


> i was waiting for the 5d3 and wanted it to be my entry into the FF world. all my lenses make much more sense on FF (as do all L lenses anyway). what I did not know is that it has no remote flash capability built in like my current 60D has and that is one feature that I got used to so well.


Not all L lenses make sense for full frame, esp. older ones are said to be better on crop due to problems in the corners that are cut off on aps-c!

I like the built-in flash of my 60d, too - but I have to say since it does not support high speed sync I seldom use it nowadays except for macro fill flash. The 5d3 obviously was designed having the new radio flashes in mind and thus a legacy ir controller would be superfluous from Canon's strategical point of view. I just read you cannot even assign flash exposure compensation to a button - doh.


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## Mulder (Apr 1, 2012)

> Not all L lenses make sense for full frame, esp. older ones are said to be better on crop due to problems in the corners that are cut off on aps-c!
> 
> I like the built-in flash of my 60d, too - but I have to say since it does not support high speed sync I seldom use it nowadays except for macro fill flash. The 5d3 obviously was designed having the new radio flashes in mind and thus a legacy ir controller would be superfluous from Canon's strategical point of view. I just read you cannot even assign flash exposure compensation to a button - doh.



the focal lengths make more sense IMO for a FF. take the popular 24-70 or 105 (have the latter), I would not need an additional ultra wide angle to compensate the crop, 24 on a crop is just not wide enough. with a crop sensor, you always have to carry one additional lens.

I don't use the built in flash of my 60D other than the odd fill flash, but I use it a lot to remote control my external flash. would be great if canon would have packed remote flash capabilities straight inside the body, if not IR, then the new RF tech; would even make sense from a marketing point of view as this would push sails of their new flash. if it were built in i would probably have a 5d3 on order by now.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 1, 2012)

Mulder said:


> I don't use the built in flash of my 60D other than the odd fill flash, but I use it a lot to remote control my external flash. would be great if canon would have packed remote flash capabilities straight inside the body, if not IR, then the new RF tech



The question is if this is possible at all to put a radio transmitter into a metal body and make it work like the flash-mounted version. With IR it's no problem of course.


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## Mulder (Apr 1, 2012)

> The question is if this is possible at all to put a radio transmitter into a metal body and make it work like the flash-mounted version. With IR it's no problem of course.



must be, my latop has an alluminium shell and wifi still works. prob depends on where you place the antenna, don't need to burry it deep inside.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 1, 2012)

Mulder said:


> must be, my latop has an alluminium shell and wifi still works. prob depends on where you place the antenna, don't need to burry it deep inside.



... question is: does your laptop have a *full* metal body like the 5d3, or is it more decoration with some parts left out where the antenna is? In my laptop, the antenna is in the lcd display - and that's certainly plastic over here.


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## Mulder (Apr 1, 2012)

same here, i guess a laptop has more peepholes than that forged body of the 5d3, still, I bet it would be possible, maybe behind the display, or between the body and the coating. if it were reducing the range they could even still sell the externa transmitter for peeps that need extended range. anyway, its one feature that other bodies offer and there will always be people (e.g. me) that will miss them.


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## Vikmnilu (Apr 4, 2012)

Hei!

I would definitely get the 60D if these are your only 2 options. I am sure it is a grat camera to start, kind of in the "semi-pro" or "advanced" categories. Will do great for a beginner and you will have fun. I myself bought an used 10D 7 years ago and still works perfectly. it has been a great way to learn and it is still able to take great pics with the right lenses. I am maybe too cheap but I do not see the point in spending 3500 dollars in a body only when you are just starting... 60 D and some good lenses instead. In the future you'll have the money to buy a good full frame if you feel like to.

Another option is to grab a used or new 5D Mark II. Which is what I am trying to do.. you can get it for 1500 dollars in good condition and I am sure is a great camera... I almost got one yesterday here in Finland for 1250 euros.... a pity that I could not bid in the auction!

Best,

Victor


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## CanonFanBoy (May 15, 2012)

```
A suggestion that Canon will announce an “entry level” full frame camera in the fall of 2012. A true replacement to the 5D Mark II?
```
I am wondering why Canon should spend valuable R&D time on making an entry level full-frame .... 22mpx, and crippled this features and that features????!!! Shouldn't the current 5D mkII not good enough? All Canon has to do is drop the price to $1,000 for 5DmkII to stamp off Nikon D600!


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## samirachiko (Jun 7, 2012)

Drama79 said:


> an "entry level" full frame? Anyone want to play guess the spec? Will this be the 7D2?
> 
> 18 MPx
> 
> ...




In my opinion:

*-swivel screen

-Built-in Flash

-Single card

-HD video capture

-ISO 100-6400

-100% viewfinder

-18/20 Mpx

-less FPS than 5D3

-Without all that PROFESSIONAL features of a 5D MK3

-Built in time-lapse functionality

-slot CF

-NEW FF+24-105L= $2200*


Otherwise it can not compete with a cheap FF by Nikon $1500 (only body)


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## samirachiko (Jun 13, 2012)

I really want IT!!! ^^
A camera with that features, I buy it immediately! ...


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