# Canon Very Large Sensor Media Format Mirrorless 1Dx2 style Camera Seen in Wild



## HarryFilm (Apr 1, 2017)

This is a reformatted copy of an email sent to me from
colleagues in the Netherlands and Germany in Early 2017
*** CONFIRMING *** that an in-the-wild test prototype
was seen in Munich, Germany during a Football match
(that's soccer for you Americans!) that was ALSO CONFIRMED
via an earlier-in-year and later-in-year PHYSICAL closeup examination 
of a similar system to be a MEDIUM FORMAT CANON CAMERA that has 
a very large CMOS sensor in a body style very similar to a 
Canon 1Dx Mark II camera but of course larger in size 
to accommodate the larger sensor and lenses.


START OF FIRST EMAIL SENT TO ME FROM NETHERLANDS/GERMANY:
=============================================
RE: Confirmation of Canon 1Dx style body Medium format camera for 2018

This email is to confirm an 
October 2016 article from German 
camera enthusiasts group "EigenVector", 
that an in-the-wild, fully-working 
medium format Canon camera was seen 
this weekend January 6, 2017 at 
Olympiapark München stadium complex
in Munich, Germany during an indoor 
football match.

"EigenVector" member "RosenBlatt" 
spotted a noted and known European 
Canon Engineer hovering undercover
at field-side during an indoor 
football match held within the 
Olympiapark complex.

Noticing an extremely large lens 
mated to very large camera body 
that was similar in appearance to a 
Canon 1Dx series camera but larger, 
"RosenBlatt" attempted to strike up 
a conversation with said engineer but 
was hastily rebuffed and the Canon 
Engineer took hasty leave of the premises.

RosenBlatt's female companion was able 
to take photos via her own Canon 5D Mk3 
with a long lens to prove once and for 
all that Canon is now field testing a 
medium format camera. 

After examination, these photos proved 
nearly identical in looks to a camera 
present in photos and video taken in 
Japan in early summer 2016.

After an exciting day contacting 
our sources in Japan who obtained 
the original photos and video,
we are able to confirm some changes 
to specifications present in our 
earlier report.

The new specification are a 
56mm by 42mm CMOS sensor Bayer 
Pattern which is a slightly larger 
sensor on the vertical than the 
56mm by 38mm sensor outlined 
in our earlier report.

It is confirmed that this is 
a <<MIRRORLESS>> camera!

Resolution is now 8192 by 6036 pixels 
still using 16 bits per Red, Green and 
Blue colour channel coupled to a newly 
added imaging format of 4:4:4 colour-
sampled JPEG-2000 which is wavelet-
based. This has been confirmed by 
our sources!

It has also been confirmed to us 
that the JPEG-2000 format is in 
addition to the normal JPEG used 
within all current Canon DSLRs. 

It is a user selectable option 
allowing full wide gamut image 
capture using the wavelet 
compression algorithm.

Pixel size has also been confirmed 
as being 6.82 microns with an improved 
linearity of light capture giving 
low-light performance an improvement 
of 5% over the already impressive 
Canon 1Dx Mk2. 

This means lower noise in the shadows 
at the same ISO as compared to the 
1Dx Mk2.

One massive improvement for usability 
is allowing the definition of custom 
menu layouts on scrollable 25-item 
screens where common camera functions 
can be aggregated into a single place. 

Five such scrollable 25-item 
touchscreen menus can be created 
and labelled into a tabbed notebook 
style of interface.

These custom menus are created 
off-camera as a text file but can 
be imported via Wifi or via USB3.

==========================================
END OF FIRST EMAIL SENT TO ME FROM NETHERLANDS/GERMANY.




START OF SECOND EMAIL SENT TO ME FROM NETHERLANDS/GERMANY:
=============================================

Stated Specifications

Canon 1Dx-body Style with 6x4.5-type 
Medium Format Camera:

* 56mm by 42mm CMOS sensor Bayer Pattern

* 8192 by 6036 pixels (50 megapixels) 
at 6.82 microns per photosite

* Global Shutter Sensor with a 
now-specified 14.5 EV at ISO 100 
Dynamic range vs 13.5 EV for 1Dx Mk2
It was explained to us that video 
shooters could expect a true dynamic 
range of 14 stops at ISO 800 which 
is better than even the newly 
released C700 cinema camera! 
This looks well for low-light 
shooting at high ISO values 
as the EV drop-off curve is 
noted to be flatter than the 
1Dx Mk2. 

* Shutter speed at full frame is 
now an <<ASTOUNDING>> 25 fps
which is 3 fps higher than 
specified in our earlier 
2016 report!

* 4:4:4 colour sampling at 16 bits per 
channel RAW and RGB Ultra Wide Gamut 

* ISO range is ISO 100 to 51200 with 
extensions down to 50 and up to 409600

* JPEG-2000 file format wavelet based 
compression 4:4:4 colour sampling 
at up to 16 bits per channel for 
wide gamut imaging. Normal JPEG is 
still available!

* Dual pixel autofocus

* Articulated and rugged OLED 
Touchscreen with horizontal swivel 
out to left and full 360 degree 
vertical rotate with live-view at 
1920 by 1200 pixels usable for 
critical focus. Entire liveview 
screen area is touch-enabled for 
fast autofocusing over entire 
sensor area!

* Five User defined and scrollable 
25-item touchscreen menus for 
creating multiple custom camera 
option and function layouts!

* onboard GPS and 6-axis MEMS sensor 
for XYZ rotation and XYZ movement 
metadata recording on all still 
images and periodically within 
video files

* Two DIGIC processors each with an 
embedded ultra wide gamut wavelet 
image compression core and a wide 
gamut MPEG4 video compression core

* One USB3 Type-C connector, one HDMI 
connector and One RJ-45 1gb/sec
Ethernet connector

* Two C-Fast slots but NO SD card slots!

* Combined Battery and Internal hard 
drive grip accessory allowing 
<<TWO>> 63.5mm (2.5 inch?) SATA SSD 
drives for high capacity still 
photo and video file storage. 

We have confirmed that testing was 
completed with two inserted 
3-terabyte Samsung SSD removable 
storage drives!

* 802.11ac Wifi with multiple logon 
accounts to autosend and <<EXCHANGE>> 
photos too!

Two Canon MF cameras can obtain 
photos from each other via
peer-to-peer Wifi and download 
photos from external sources to 
local C-Fast cards and internal 
SSD drives!

* Confirmation that video recording 
is supported at DCI 4k (4096x2160),
UHDTV (3840x2160) and HDTV (1920x1080)
downsampled from the full sensor 
area at 24 fps, 25 fps, 30 fps, 
50 fps, 60 fps, 100 fps and 120 fps. 

HDMI output is confirmed clean of 
any overlays at 4k DCI, 3840 and 
1080 resolutions!

* We have confirmed that video 
recording has eschewed Motion-JPEG 
Intraframe compression and gone to 
Motion-Wavelet intraframe 
compression at up to 12 bits per 
channel 4:4:4 colour sampling. 

It is also confirmed to us that 
MPEG4 interframe compression at 
10 bits per channel 4:2:2 colour 
sampling is now enabled!

* Canon Clog/Clog2/Clog3 and five 
User-definable Log file entries 
are confirmed present.

* 3.5mm audio input jack is present

* We have now confirmed that a more 
expensive 120 megapixels at 8-to-10 
fps version will be released at the 
same time!

* It is confirmed that a 50mm and 85mm 
lens in addition to a 600 mm 
telephoto were tested in the wild 
with four new zoom lenses to be 
introduced at the same time for 
the new medium format mount sizes. 

It is confirmed that the lenses 
will contain on-lens LED displays 
for easy viewing of statistical 
information even in low-light 
situations!

* It is confirmed that a mid-2018 
introduction date is specified

* Price for Body-only was given as a 
range from 12000 Euros to as much as 
16000 Euros at introduction! This is 
<<VERY INEXPENSIVE>> compared with 
Hasselblad or Phase One but with 
a 25 fps burst shooting speed at 
50 megapixels!

* It has been confirmed that lenses 
will not be cheap and from 1.5x to 
3x the price of the premium EF lenses 
at equivalent focal lengths and at 
least twice as heavy! You will need 
to start working out and beef up 
your tripods!

============================================
END OF SECOND EMAIL SENT TO ME FROM NETHERLANDS/GERMANY.


As an addendum to my second email, it was outlined to me
that the primary still photo codec to be used to compress photos
is a 4:4:4 Wavelet-based JPEG-2000 codec and the colour sampling
is 16-bits per channel native BUT but user choosable downsampling
of additional 12 bits, 10 bits and 8 bits per channel.

It was also outlined to me that the primary highest-fidelity 
motion video codec is a Motion Wavelet-based ALSO with 
4:4:4 16-bits NATIVE and also user-selectable per channel 
colour sampling intraframe codec. No mention or RAW video
recording was made in my received emails but that RAW FORMAT
still photo shooting at 16 bits per channel IS AVAILABLE!.

And thirdly, it was outlined to me that the primary INTERFRAME
codec that has the longest recording times is a variation on
an H.265 codec (NOT the MPEG-4 outlined above!) that is to 
be 4:2:2 quality with an option to choose ONE OF 8-bits, 
10 bits ...OR... 12-bits per colour channel of colour sampling.
The camera NATIVELY captures at 16 bits per channel and
down-samples to the 12, 10 and 8-bits per channel.

Those bodes very well for high-dynamic range imaging
and by mentioning the specification terms of 14.5 EV 
at ISO 100, I can PERSONALLY conclude on a technical basis, 
there SHOULD BE a noise-reduction at ISO levels at or above 
6400 between 5% to 15% and more over the already 
impressive 1Dx Mk 2. This means that shooting at say 
ISO 1600 you could probably shoot a few minutes after 
sunset scene and almost NO NOISE will be seen and 
colours will still be nearly fully saturated!

And finally, it has been confirmed by my sources that 
TWO VERSIONS of the camera will be sold. A 50 megapixel
version and a 120 megapixel version to replace the 5Ds/r
camera. 

It is indeed fully mirrorless and WILL shoot a full burst
of 25 frames per second at 50 megapixels which is an 
astonishingly high speed! I hope they have the cooling 
system and battery life down pat on these cameras!

I received a range of 7 fps to 10 fps burst rate shooting speed
for the 120 megapixel version of the medium format mirrorless.

The only concern I have is paying between 12 000 to 16 000 Euros
which I think is a bit steep BUT at 25 fps at 50 megapixels it might
change the medium format game ENTIRELY especially if the body
style stays with the 1Dx Mk 2 style!

I know this may seem like an utterly unbelievable rumour
to you, but my sources are rather impressive in their contacts
SO I MUST give them the benefit of the doubt because of their 
personal and peer standing in still imaging and video engineering circles!

It looks like Canon is getting very serious about high end photography
at larger sensor sizes. I think more than a few pros would switch to
Canon MF if the body style was kept the same as the 1Dx Mk2 and
the burst shooting speed actually IS the stated 25 fps!

That speed CHANGES EVERYTHING within action sports and 
wildlife photography circles at 50 megapixels and a 120 megapixel 
version also changes everything for landscape, portrait
and fashion photographers!

**** I should note even though the above emails
**** state that photos of the prototype camera were taken
**** by 2nd/3rd parties, I DO NOT HAVE THOSE PHOTOS !!!

What do you think about the specs?

Does anybody have any 3rd party confirmation 
of these specs to share with canon rumors?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 1, 2017)

I see that term confirmed several times. Rumors of medium format Canon cameras have been around for many years. I did not see any photos of the camera, or explanation of how someone managed to look at the sensor and see its size.

Apparently, the key was a extremely large lens? As in Cinema lens? I've had medium format cameras, lenses are a little larger, but not extremely large. I have a 135mm 4X5 lens that is smaller than most lenses I have seen. Cinema and broadcast lenses tend to be on the large side.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 1, 2017)

It is confirmed that the word gullible is not in the dictionary.


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## Ryananthony (Apr 1, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> It is confirmed that the word gullible is not in the dictionary.



I was thinking it read like a bad chain email. If I don't forward it to 10 people by midnight I or someone close to me will die/ I will have bad luck/ or I'll have a bad love life for eternity.


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## Crosswind (Apr 1, 2017)

Nice april fools joke


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## HarryFilm (Apr 1, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I see that term confirmed several times. Rumors of medium format Canon cameras have been around for many years. I did not see any photos of the camera, or explanation of how someone managed to look at the sensor and see its size.
> 
> Apparently, the key was a extremely large lens? As in Cinema lens? I've had medium format cameras, lenses are a little larger, but not extremely large. I have a 135mm 4X5 lens that is smaller than most lenses I have seen. Cinema and broadcast lenses tend to be on the large side.



-----

I have to agree with you on the term "Confirmed".
I personally don't HAVE the said photos of the Canon MF
in the wild although i am TRYING to to get them!

I am relying more on the academic and working credentials
of my contacts who say THEY HAVE SEEN the photos and videos 
in question and THEY ARE suitably impressed! They have not specified 
the reasons as to WHY they haven't yet sent the photos and videos to me.

I am more and more BEGINNING to believe the veracity 
of the spec claims due to their logical nature and KNOWN
assertions by actual Canon personnel indicating that H.265
and Motion Wavelet still photo/video compression and that 
Large Medium Format Sensors have been in Canon's Research 
and Development pipeline for a few years now.

I've actually personally SEEN a gigantic sensor from Canon
that was OVER 480 MEGAPIXELS from a 202mm x 205mm 
(8 inches x 8.1 inches) chip which is somewhere around 
26,000+ by 17,000+ pixels (approximately) if I 
remember correctly which is used in Satellite 
Earth Imaging and Astrophotography.
(it was announced in 2010 and I saw it at a astro/satellite-conference)

You could shoot 60 fps at 0.3 lux and at 9 microns per pixel
the image was STUNNING !!!! Canon CAN do Medium Format,
so again, I am more and more inclined to think Canon is working
on an MF revenue generator and having MANY professional 
sports/news/fashion/portrait/wildlife photographers upgrade
to a 50 megapixel 25 fps Medium Format camera at 12 000 euros 
a pop SOUNDS LIKE a good revenue generator to me!

If the MF size L-series lenses are made REALLY GOOD then 
Canon would be RAKING IN THE REALLY BIG MONEY from 
all those full-frame to MF professional photographer upgrades! 

All I can say is that based upon all the grapevine talk I have been 
hearing within the last two years, is that a NEW high-speed flagship 
stills and video camera is on the way from Canon and it will be shooting 
50 and 120 megapixels at 16 bits per colour channel using a very large 
Global Shutter Sensor for high dynamic range!


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 1, 2017)

If you use all caps, it MUST be TRUE.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 1, 2017)

Medium and large format cameras is a dying business, they are not selling, and companies are going out of business. Canon did look at buying into a MF camera company a while back, but decided to pass.

Its no secret as to where Canon is heading, they have shown their high level plans, and its not MF cameras. Certainly, they research and evel sell one of the huge sensors, and may well be talking with the military, it falls into the area where they have put up some billions of dollars - Surveillance cameras are big profit items in the police, military, government, and large companies. Its a fast growing market.

Canon has also been pumping money into Medical imaging, an0ther area that is a growth industry. 

I can't see them spending billions of dollars developing large sensors, cameras, and lenses. They know that they would lose it all.


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## Sharlin (Apr 1, 2017)

Props for such an elaborate April Fool's story. Must have taken a while to come up with.


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## midluk (Apr 1, 2017)

This definitely gets the [CRA] (A: April) rating.


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## Woodwideweb (Apr 1, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> It is confirmed that the word gullible is not in the dictionary.



Yes it is, I just checked (sorry, can't resist a good feeder line)


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## HarryFilm (Apr 2, 2017)

midluk said:


> This definitely gets the [CRA] (A: April) rating.



----

This was NOT meant as an April Fools joke!
I received the emails quite a while ago 
in February, so I am pretty sure it wasn't 
meant for that.

My contacts are impeccable in terms terms 
of their standing in still photography and 
video engineering AND I understand there 
are both photos AND video of the events
in Europe and Japan of the actual prototype 
Canon MF cameras in question. I am TRYING 
to obtain those photos and videos and
will present them if I can get them.

The specs themselves from what 
I understand come from engineering 
drawings obtained by "Certain Sources"
to which I am not privy to.

I'm not defending these statements
merely relaying them and as many
know or believe:

"Photos and Video or it didn't happen!"

I will see if there is some ability
to get that "proof" to all of you 
here at canonrumors!


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## Ozarker (Apr 2, 2017)

I'd be happy if this were true. If it isn't, oh well. 

The problem is that this is a two kidney item and I only have one kidney remaining. That doesn't even count glass. :'(


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## Dekaner (Apr 2, 2017)

I have the Gura Gear Bataflae 32L (now the Tamrac G32). I highly recommend this bag and had no problem (well, except the weight), 2 gripped bodies, 1 non-gripped, 200-400, 70-200, 24-70, flash, extender, fisheye and a whole lot of other misc. accessories. I've also pulled out the dividers and put in a 200-400 and a 600 in it at the same time. It fits under the seat or overhead on the airplane (it's a tight fit, but it will go), has good shoulder padding, usable handles and a good waist belt. It's a bit of overkill if you're not putting a great white in it, but you could always look at the G26, which seems to simply be a bit shorter but otherwise the same.


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## eosuser1234 (Apr 3, 2017)

EF-M = EF- Medium Format. Using a the EF Canon LIFE SIZE converter (via 50mm F/2.5 Macro) , you can use your EF-M lenses on this new larger medium format sensor.


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## applecider (Apr 3, 2017)

I so hope this is true because it would be the perfect camera to get pictures of Gigantopithecus blacki, which are reportedly endemic in the pacific NW though rarely well photographed.


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## HarryFilm (Apr 3, 2017)

applecider said:


> I so hope this is true because it would be the perfect camera to get pictures of Gigantopithecus blacki, which are reportedly endemic in the pacific NW though rarely well photographed.



While there is still some debate as to whether or not Sasquatch 
(aka Bigfoot or a version of Gigantopithecus) might or might not
be real, it is rather difficult to dispute the reality of a Canon 
8 inch sensor that has 480+ megapixels in it sitting in a 
display case in front of me upon which the Canon rep standing 
in front of said display case indicated to ME personally that 
Medium Format is being looked at in the NEAR future by Canon!

An interesting conversation I had with a Canon Optics
manager that works in the Optical Microscope and 
Microcircuit Mask Printing manufacturing portion 
of Canon ADMITTED to me that 35mm/full frame 
photography is a dying industry BUT that higher 
end imaging is an area Canon has been spending
lots of Research dollars very recently.

But the interesting correlation of the above statement
is from my contacts in the Netherlands and Germany 
that have said Canon MANAGERS from Japan have 
told them that Canon is going to focus on three 
areas of imaging:

a) Grab a huge piece of the Cell Phone/Smartphone market
away from Sony my making CANON-manufactured CMOS chips 
for 4k small sensor sizes at 60 fps and 120 fps for the cheap 
and mid-tier phones that have onboard image processing.
(i.e. glue a Digic to back of sensor)

b) Manufacturing bonded-together CMOS imaging and Digic/ARM CPU
image processing cores at 2/3 inch and one-inch CMOS sensor sizes 
for flagship smartphones such as Apple and Samsung and that
SOME of these chips will be for 8k still photo and 24 to 120 fps 8k video!
i.e. 8000+ by 4500+ pixels which would be great!

c) Large Sensor EOS Sport Body Still Photo and Premium Cinema Camera
that can shoot AT OR GREATER THAN 24/25/30/50/60/100/120 fps at the 
full sensor sizes to get the professional photographers to switch over 
from 35mm/Full Frame to 65mm/70mm/4x5 Medium Format imaging.

If a large 65/70 mm sensor can image 8K+ (32, 50 and 120 megapixels)
at 24 fps and above, the pro sports, action, wildlife, news and magazine
photographers will simply have no issue with throwing anywhere from
10 000 Euros to 16 000 Euros for such high end gear.

The quality improvement of large sensors and higher frames rates
is just TOO GOOD TO PASS UP for any pro who is making a living 
at this profession. All the pro sports shooters I know want SPEED
and when I asked what would they do if Canon has a 24+ fps 
medium format camera at 50 megapixels, they said they would 
dump their 35mm gear within 30 seconds of introduction to get 
a loan for it even with the heavier lenses and bulkier camera!

That's 160 million euros spending spree for 10,000 units 
right there at first year of introduction of such a system! 
By 3rd and 4th year Canon would earn over 2 billion Euros
worldwide just for the pro photographers not to mention
bring that technology down to 120 million cell phones 
EVERY YEAR if you put 8k+ Canon image sensors in smartphones!

So YES i believe my contacts! There is just too much money 
at stake for Canon to have not done something already!

It's coming sooner or later! Canon 8K+ 2/3 inch, 1 inch 
and MF-style sizes for Smartphones and Pro cameras 
within one or two years at the most!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 4, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> It's coming sooner or later! Canon 8K+ 2/3 inch, 1 inch
> and MF-style sizes for Smartphones and Pro cameras
> within one or two years at the most!



Its no secret that Canon is working hard on 8K 2/3 and maybe super 35 sensors. They have partnered with NKG to develop them and a schedule is set.

It was also reported some time ago that Canon is entering the sensor selling business, they have already started.

Canon has been doing R&D on very large sensors, and has provided some for astronomy use. 

However, getting into the MF format business, where high MP 35mm cameras have almost killed the market, is another story. The Camera could be certainly designed, it often takes astronomical amounts of money to develop and fine tune a sensor, and Canon is geared for high volume. Then there are lenses. The EOS M has been around gor years, and lenses are appearing very slowly. You can adapt to a EF lens though. But, who would pay $50,000 for a 250 MP large format camera with only one lens available, or even two or three? Sure, they could easily make a adapter for EF lenses and crop the image to the standard FF format. I wouldn't buy that.

I just do not see a company which specializes in high volume production making a camera for a very few customers. Its not good business. There may be research going on, and even prototypes, but they will never see volume production.


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## Mikehit (Apr 4, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> If a large 65/70 mm sensor can image 8K+ (32, 50 and 120 megapixels)
> at 24 fps and above, the pro sports, action, wildlife, news and magazine
> photographers will simply have no issue with throwing anywhere from
> 10 000 Euros to 16 000 Euros for such high end gear.



The 5DSR is limited to 5fps
Apparently the 1Dx2 is limited to 20MP so that it can process and deliver 16fps.
So when, exactly, do you anticipate the processing power to deliver 24fps of a 200MP image in a body small enough to wield in the field?
I am pretty sure that every manufacturer is already trialling hard copies of fanciful lenses but at times these rumours remind me of the skunk works where trialling weird and unusual military aircraft is the UFO conspiracy theorist's dream.

Or is that what they want us to think.......[cue the theme to the twilight zone]....




HarryFilm said:


> The quality improvement of large sensors and higher frames rates
> is just TOO GOOD TO PASS UP for any pro who is making a living
> at this profession. All the pro sports shooters I know want SPEED
> and when I asked what would they do if Canon has a 24+ fps
> ...



So why not just upgrade the speed of the 5DSr (50MP) with a new sensor and keep it as 35mm DSLR?



HarryFilm said:


> It's coming sooner or later! Canon 8K+ 2/3 inch, 1 inch
> and MF-style sizes for Smartphones and Pro cameras
> within one or two years at the most!


2 years? To develop an as yet unseen processor and all the peripheries?


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## IglooEater (Apr 4, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > HarryFilm said:
> ...


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## HarryFilm (Apr 4, 2017)

----
"...So when, exactly, do you anticipate the processing power to deliver 24fps of a 200MP image in a body small enough to wield in the field?..."
----


===

I should preface the following statement in that 
I should disclose I am one of the few people on 
Earth who have access to 7 nanometre electron beam
etching machines used for prototype CPU production
...AND... that our company creates 64-bit, 128-bit 
and ultra-wide-word 256-bit CPU/GPU designs
from the ground up for aerospace, supercomputer
and "other" uses!

So I can ABSOLUTELY SAY the designs for a 
combined RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computer) 
and GPU (Graphics Processing Unit) bonded 
to a large CMOS sensor of 16-bits-per-channel 
and more are HERE AT THIS VERY MOMENT if 
Canon wants them! We'll even throw in the in-between 
liquid microchannel-based cooling system layers to 
ensure adequate cooling.

The die is usually 2/3", one-inch, 35mm or even 65mm
because we bond the gpu/risc cpu processing system 
right to the back substrate of the CMOS sensor along 
with a multi-layer active cooling system. Our usual 
temperature ranges are space-rated in an almost total vacuum 
environment from way-below-zero C up to +350 Celcius
so we KNOW it can handle harsh environments!

I know it kinda not fair to bring all this high-tech 
up here on this board this up ...BUT....since we 
do it ourselves, then it means YOU CAN BET 
that Canon is doing it too!

In terms of processing power, the math is as follows
( 8192 by 6306 pixels ) x 8 bytes per pixel (16-bits 
per RGB colour channel plus 16 bits for alpha channel 
or a distance/depth-map channel = 51,658,752 bytes per frame
x 60 fps = 3,099,525,120 bytes per second RAW transfer rate.

Our chips can do 16 gigabytes per second RAW 
so 3.1 gigs per second is PEANUTS for our gear!
So at 8 milliseconds per frame for ADC sampling 
and another 8 milliseconds for compression of a video frame
to almost any video CODEC algorithm, a single 256 megabyte
L3 cache is more than enough to handle compression
to Motion JPEG or Wavelet using a four-frame video buffer
for 60 fps video output!

You do need to change the CMOS photo-site current drain 
from line-by-line to a 16x16 pixel 2D-XY block which is 
WHY we bond the processor to the BACK of the sensor
which allows us to divide the CPU/GPU into precisely 
clocked stream processors that ONLY handle the 
incoming signals from a single 16x16 photosite 
block for ADC (Analog-to-Digital Conversion at 
24-bits per channel downsampled to 16 bits)
and further image processing! We 3D LAYER 
the stream processors since the ADC and
compression/stream processor circuitry 
is quite a bit larger than any single 
16x16 block of photosites.

The massively parallel architecture is typical 
of what NVIDIA and AMD do on the GPU cards
of desktop PC's and laptops with the only 
difference being our on-board VRAM caches,
which are HUGE!

Since we are dealing with LIMITED NUMBER of
graphics and video compression processes that 
only need to be timed down to a latency of 
8 milliseconds per frame, it's a TRIVIAL 
engineering task!

So I am more than just sure Canon 
is doing what we do simply because
WE are doing it RIGHT NOW!

Now to get the cost to below 16 000 euros
just might be a bit of an elevated effort!


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## Mikehit (Apr 4, 2017)

You really should learn how to use the quote function.....

So given that Canon build all their own sensors, and given that you are doing it already makes you wonder why Canon did not show a smidgeon of this technology in previous models. 

I know zip about sensor or processor production, but it seems what you are saying it is merely a case of them developing a new processor like yours, completely changing the architecture of their CMOS sensors. Oh...and reducing the cost about 5 to 10-fold. 
All within 2 years.


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 4, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > It's coming sooner or later! Canon 8K+ 2/3 inch, 1 inch
> ...


The C700 has a Super 35 sensor with 4K output to CFast cards and 4.5K to dedicated Codex recorder. There is a strong possibility we will see a Vistavision sensor version that will be anywhere between 6K & 8K which would put it in the same ballpark at Red Weapon. Red also have the Super 35 Helium 8K and I can see Canon trying to match that in time. 
The Vistavision format (slightly larger technically than 36X24mm) will be able to use Canon vast range of EF lenses and Leica have just announced their Cine versions of the Leica S lenses to cover up to the Arri Alexa 65 open gate area. 
I'm not convinced Canon will go medium format, even for specialists like Arri the Alexa 65 uses remounted Hasselblad, Fujinon, Pentax etc. medium format lenses as the cost to develop lenses far out-weighs the cost to develop a camera. 
Sensor fab for Canon in the third party market is one thing (they look at Sony with envy) , Medium format is another thing altogether and unlikely to be a reality.


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 4, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> You really should learn how to use the quote function.....
> 
> So given that Canon build all their own sensors, and given that you are doing it already makes you wonder why Canon did not show a smidgeon of this technology in previous models.
> 
> ...



Sorry about the quotes, that was a too-quick-of-typing-fault on my part.

---

On a general basis, Canon already has the technology
(they've demoed their technology to us and we've demoed 
our technology to them) and while I cannot be more specific 
beyond that, it was their patent for global shutter readout 
methodology that our parent company cross-licences from Canon!

Our systems CANNOT compete with Canon cost-wise!
We just don't bother and stay with high-end industrial/milspec systems!

Our markets are different BUT Canon has a few tricks
up their sleeve that will make similar technology to ours
feasible on prosumer/true professional systems costing 
anywhere between 5 000 Euros up to their Cinema 
EOS lines which can be in the 30 000 Euros range.

Unfortunately, I don't have any ties to Japanese
Canon Management and Engineers so I cannot 
comment personally on their timelines and 
future product development.

What I CAN comment on is word from friends
in the Netherlands and Germany who do have
standing with "sources" much closer to Canon 
than I would ever have. It is THEIR expertise
I am relying on. I am saying TWO YEARS because
that seems to be a timetable where something
bigger is to be released as a Flagship model
for high-speed, high-resolution imaging designed 
for higher-end professional sports, action, magazine 
photography use! 

And based upon some BASIC number crunching,
160 million Euros worth of high end large-sensor 
cameras would LIKELY be sold within 4 to 6 months.
AND 2-to-4 years after that, up to a possible
1.5 to 2.0 BILLION Euros of larger-format 
camera body and lens gear would be sold.

After development and marketing costs, 
Canon's profit margin would be likely in 
the 35%+ range besting the profit margins 
of even Apple on their very profitable iPhone gear!

When the pro photographers have been saturated
with such gear, then Canon will then dig deep to wrestle
away Smartphone camera components away from Sony
where at 120 million+ phones per year, the GROSS MARGIN
will be 15% of the average wholesale price of mid-tier 
smartphones FOR EVERY YEAR which will be in the area
of at least 500 million+ Euros for years to come! 

That is a market Canon WILL NO LONGER IGNORE! 
Powerful CMOS chips combined with GPU/CPU tech 
for 8K+smartphone cameras is the wave of the 
future for Canon! And based upon what I have
heard, something is coming SOONER rather 
than later!

I ALSO BELIEVE that the REAL target market 
is going to be mobile phones/smartphones
and any 8k+ Medium Format Still/Video 
camera is merely a test bed to shrinking
new technologies down to 1/2 inch or 
maybe 2/3 inch Canon CMOS sensors for
mid-tier and higher end smartphones.

I think they are BETTING BIG on entering
smartphone market by first going after 
pro still camera/video users with a very 
nice large-sensor medium format product
which will bring MANY ooohs and aaaahs
from the photography community AND will
ensure their upcoming combined octa-core
DIGIC Image Processor + CMOS 8K+ Sensor 
technology is viable for a broader 
consumer market.


----------



## Mikehit (Apr 4, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> I ALSO BELIEVE that the REAL target market
> is going to be mobile phones/smartphones
> and any 8k+ Medium Format Still/Video
> camera is merely a test bed to shrinking
> ...



So you are saying they will make a major commitment to develop consumer medium format digital SLR (at high risk) as a testbed for entering the 8k mobile phone market??
That is one weird strategy.

APS-C was developed before 35mm sensors purely arising from production challenges of making the first 35mm sensor. What you are proposing turns that development line on its head. Forgive my scepticism but....


----------



## jeffa4444 (Apr 4, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > You really should learn how to use the quote function.....
> ...


Your well off the mark in so many levels, size of the market, value, processing (not just taking an image but post-processing). 
Sony have four or five sensor fabs (they also bought Toshiba fabs), Canon has one and are no where near ready to challenge the smart phone market.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 4, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> I ALSO BELIEVE that the REAL target market
> is going to be mobile phones/smartphones
> and any 8k+ Medium Format Still/Video
> camera is merely a test bed to shrinking
> ...



Sorry, but it REALLY sounds like you have NO CLUE what you're talking about.


----------



## Mikehit (Apr 4, 2017)

He is one of the few people with access to 7nm electron beam etching - that narrows it down a bit as to who is talking - and he discusses on an open forum demonstrations Canon has made of their new technology, along with the licensing agreement that both companies have entered into. If I were Canon I would be rather pissed at that having a development partner's technician disclosing what we are doing (no idea what his employer would think). 
This technician then starts to make assumptions about the development timelines decided on by Canon Japan (he admits he has no contacts there), the nature of the camera market ($2 billion sales in 2 years) and the level of Canon's profit margin based on discussions with 'friends'.

I would give the comments more kudos if it was claimed to be a high-def camera for specialist work (TV cameras covering a sporting event) but to extend it to a consumer model within 2 years is not credible.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 4, 2017)

Perhaps his "Inside" information came fron tyhis Canon press release in 2015!

"
*TOKYO, September 8, 2015*—Canon Inc. announced today that it is developing a Cinema EOS System 8K camera and professional-use 8K reference display that will support the production of next-generation 8K video content, along with a still-image single-lens reflex camera equipped with a CMOS sensor featuring approximately 120 million effective pixels. Through the Company’s proprietary imaging technologies, Canon provides still and video input and output devices that will contribute to the development of imaging culture.
Canon, as a leading company in the field of imaging technology, conducts research and development into devices designed to support cinema and video production with the aim of expanding the boundaries of visual expression. Through the further enhancement of the Cinema EOS System 8K camera and professional-use 8K reference display under development, Canon aims to contribute to smooth production workflows, facilitating not only the input and output of 8K video content, but also such processes as 8K to 4K down-conversion and 4K cropping.

The Cinema EOS System 8K camera being developed will be equipped with a Canon Super 35 mm-equivalent CMOS sensor that makes possible high-resolution 8,192 x 4,320 pixel (approximately 35.39 million effective pixels) imaging performance even at a frame rate of 60 frames per second with 13 stops1 of dynamic range and a richly expressive wide color gamut. Additionally, featuring a body size that realizes outstanding mobility and a design that delivers high levels of operability, along with an EF mount that offers compatibility with Canon’s extensive interchangeable EF lens lineup,2 the camera will support diverse shooting styles and means of visual expression.
Incorporating Canon image-processing technology, the ultra-high-resolution 8K reference display currently under development will achieve high brightness, high contrast (high dynamic range) and a wide color gamut. Additionally, with a pixel density exceeding 300 pixels per inch, a level approaching the limit of human visibility, the display will make possible ultra-realistic imaging that enables the reproduction of subtle changes in light that were previously not possible. Furthermore, when used in combination with the Cinema EOS System 8K camera, the display will be capable of conveying truly impressive levels of visual expression.
Featuring a resolution of approximately 120 effective megapixels, the SLR camera now being developed will incorporate a Canon-developed high-pixel-density CMOS sensor within the current EOS-series platform, which will realize compatibility with the Company’s diverse interchangeable EF lens lineup.3 The high-resolution images that the camera will be capable of producing will recreate the three-dimensional texture, feel and presence of subjects, making them appear as if they are really before one’s eyes. The camera will facilitate a level of resolution that is more than sufficient for enlarged poster-sized printout while also enabling images to be cropped and trimmed without sacrificing image resolution and clarity.
[list type=decimal]
[*]A stop is a unit of measurement used to express dynamic range, which refers to the difference between the brightest and darkest areas of an image that can be simultaneously captured.
[*]Out of the 96 lenses that make up the EF lens lineup, 78 models (60 EF lenses and 18 EF Cinema Lenses) will be compatible with the 8K camera under development.
[*]Out of the 96 lenses that make up the EF lens lineup, 60 models will be compatible with the SLR camera under development.
[/list]
Read more: http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-developing-8k-cinema-eos-camera-120mp-dslr-8k-display/#ixzz4dIJXeIHw"
​


----------



## FramerMCB (Apr 4, 2017)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > It's coming sooner or later! Canon 8K+ 2/3 inch, 1 inch
> ...



I'm wondering if Canon, as per this [vicious] rumor of a HMP MF body, would then be developing some bigger Whites with DO glass to help reduce weight...? Who knows? The great news is: we are living in great times as photographers with all of the various technological advances happening in the technologies that go into making a photographic instrument, be it a body, sensor, processor, other electronics, screens, glass, etc...


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 5, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > I ALSO BELIEVE that the REAL target market
> ...



===

So while I do admit my PERSONAL dealings with Canon management
is pretty much non-existent, my friends are anything but unknowledgeable
about the directions of MANY camera body and sensor makers!
And I actually DO KNOW more than just a little about sensor 
technology on smartphones. I am no mere technician!

...BUT...I need not disclose too much on here
OTHER THAN TO SAY that 8K 2/3 inch CMOS sensors 
with aspherical and compound curve microlenses will 
DEFINITELY allow Canon to enter the smartphone market 
without burdening the smartphone with huge lenses!

That 41 megapixel Windows Phone from Nokia (i.e. Lumia 1020)
from 2013 had a very large and thick lens structure that is no 
longer required due to the ability of high-refractive index glass
and new types of non-hemispherical microlenses that are put 
on top of each sensor photosite to gather more light. 
This means ultra-thin lens structures and better photos 
from smartphones! Optical Zoom of course will be restricted
in scope but at such resolutions as 8k+ that might 
not be so much an issue anymore.

The key Canon feature is integration of CPU/GPU image processing,
bonded to a CMOS sensor with built-in large VRAM cache and 
micro-channel-based cooling for advanced thermal management. 
And at 8k 60 fps being the target frame rate, Sony will and SHOULD
be quaking in their boots if Canon can get the cost down to within 
10% to 20% of Sony's prices. Samsung has been itching to get out
form under Sony's dominance of smartphone camera suppliers 
and Canon is well-poised to benefit under the new management
philosophy of quicker introductions of new technologies.

This is good for all still photographers and cinematographers!

I simply relay information I have received and make comments upon
it since in my world the PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING in the form of
a real-world large-sensor MF camera with a Canon logo on it!

No need to argue the merits of my posts since it is all conjecture
until I get access to videos and/or photos of said camera(s)!

I can say that we are currently in a game of Wait and See......


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 5, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> I can say that we are currently in a game of Wait and See......



We are currently playing the same game regarding the conversion of our Sun to a red giant. 

Incidentally, the existence of a prototype means very little. Back in 2000, Canon showed off a prototype for a 400mm f/4L. No such lens saw production. In 2005, they exhibited a prototype hydrogen fuel cell in the dedicated battery grip powering an EOS Kiss Digital N (Japanese version of the 350D / Rebel XT). 12 years later, we're still using Li-based rechargeable batteries in our Canon cameras.


----------



## Don Haines (Apr 5, 2017)

A long time ago, when I was young and a lot stronger than I am now, I would go out shooting with my friend, her large format camera, heavy duty tripod, and plates of film. Fortunately, she only had 2 lenses so the load was manageable by 2 people. What I remember most about those excursions was how heavy and awkward the setup was....

40 years later, the same laws of physics still apply. Large format cameras are big and they are awkward. Lenses are HUGE! (135mm was a wide angle lens  ) By going from film to digital sensors, the manufacturing process has become quite complex and since it is for a limited market, you don't get the economies of scale for consumer goods... in other words, EXPENSIVE!!!!

I can not see how Canon could sell a large format digital camera for a reasonable price..... you are probably looking at $100,000 plus just for the body, and if you think L glass is expensive, just wait till you go large format! If you are complaining that a 1DX2 and lens is heavy, try carrying around 3 or 4 of them and that should give you an idea as to what humping around a large format camera is like.. and forget about hand held, you NEED that tripod, and it had better be a good one!

This body is most likely a research project. The market is too small to make production worth while....


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 5, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> A long time ago, when I was young and a lot stronger than I am now, I would go out shooting with my friend, her large format camera, heavy duty tripod, and plates of film. Fortunately, she only had 2 lenses so the load was manageable by 2 people. What I remember most about those excursions was how heavy and awkward the setup was....
> 
> 40 years later, the same laws of physics still apply. Large format cameras are big and they are awkward. Lenses are HUGE! (135mm was a wide angle lens  ) By going from film to digital sensors, the manufacturing process has become quite complex and since it is for a limited market, you don't get the economies of scale for consumer goods... in other words, EXPENSIVE!!!!
> 
> ...



----

While Canon a Medium Format or C700-style
65mm sensor camera IS a niche product...
BUT....when you sell a thousand C700's and 
accessories for well over $40,000, I don't
think Canon cares too much since that
sort of market penetration is considered
a fantastic success.

And lately, I've seen the C700 being ORDERED
by a LOT of TV News and Crews who have 
wanted the C700 style body for a very long time, 
so I am guessing based upon the Euro, USA 
and Asia markets, Canon has already sold at 
least 1000 of them so that's 40 Million Dollars US 
in just 6 months!

That is a LOT of very expensive cinema-style
cameras already in such a short period of time!
Can't argue with that sort of cash ESPECIALLY
since the Research and Development costs
were LIKELY less than $150 million US on 
the C700. They will recoup their costs in
less than two years at this rate!
and with a 4-to-5 year product cycle
they will be earning a gross profit of around
$350 million US just on the wildly expensive C700!

Add in a sports/action photographer-style MF body
and large lens, then Canon has a COMPLETE WINNER! 
I know from my manufacturing experience that 
Canon can definitely get a 50 megapixel MF sensor 
and body down to near 10 000 Euros.

The KEY FEATURE TO GREAT SALES is burst shooting speed!
if the spec of 25 fps at 50 megapixels and 7-to-10 fps for 
120 megapixels is REAL, it would be a MASSIVE WIN 
FOR CANON! I would buy three of them for myself 
just one minute after they were put on sale!

So if this IS REAL, then it ABSOLUTELY BETTER HAVE 
WHAT I WANT...which is that magical 25 fps
burst rate at 50 megapixels!

----

And regarding your lens size and expense issue,
I am very well aware how large and expensive 
such lenses are! I've got one downstairs where 
it literally cost us nearly $100,000 for a 4K 
Fujinon Servo Zoom lens and it is BIG and HEAVY!

On a physical basis, I can ask you to try and lug 
around an old 35 pound Sony Betacam SP camera and 
Batteries with a 20 pound sports servo lens attached 
to it onto a rolling ship or submarine or over rough terrain
AND have a 30 pound all-metal tripod strapped to your back!

Many times I was carrying WELL OVER a 
100 pounds of gear with NO HELP --- 
Just me and the "Crew"!

It really isn't that bad, just train yourself! 
Humans can EASILY carry that sort
of gear (100 lbs - 45 kg) for 10 
or more kilometres if you're well 
trained enough. People are LAZY these
days...We did it ALMOST EVERY DAY for YEARS!

My current cameras, lenses, batteries
and tripods are STILL over 60 lbs of gear
and I STILL have to take it by myself
sometimes up to 5 to 10 km over rough 
terrain (only a few times a year now!)
but now I'm 20 years older so it's a lot harder!

So....if I can still lug 60 lbs of gear around at my age
then I think Canon is MORE THAN CAPABLE of offering 
a reasonably-priced (i.e. 10 000 Euros) 1Dx sports-body-style 
Medium Format Global Shutter camera with lightweight but 
Medium Format-sized lenses!


----------



## Mikehit (Apr 5, 2017)

The question is not how good the MF camera is but what advantages it offers over the current SLR cameras. 
A big challenge with a 600mm DSLR lens is not the weight but its manoeverability - it is a challenge to track a subject and change direction with it becuase of the momentum of a large lens. Add that problem to every lens in the arsenal and it becomes impractical.
See a bit of action? Try hauling that rig up to your eye in time to get the shot.

Then you have image quality - it is really going to offer real world advantages. The market today is web viewing, not magazine spreads and posters.

The market-man's worse nightmare is people who say 'oh, yes please' when someone talks hypothetically and seeing all those numbers evaporating when they see the price and the little ergonomic issues. Not to mention the storage space and the additional computer power to process those images. 

You seem to be shifting your argument from your original claim about a consumer grade 120MP MF format to talking about the number they could sell to new organisations.Which one is it?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 5, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> You seem to be shifting your argument from your original claim about a consumer grade 120MP MF format to talking about the number they could sell to new organisations.Which one is it?



The original claim was _two_ concurrent models, trading MP for fps like the 5Ds/5DIII, both under 16,000 €. I'm not sure if he's a troll or merely gullible and clueless.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 6, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > A long time ago, when I was young and a lot stronger than I am now, I would go out shooting with my friend, her large format camera, heavy duty tripod, and plates of film. Fortunately, she only had 2 lenses so the load was manageable by 2 people. What I remember most about those excursions was how heavy and awkward the setup was....
> ...



Have you heard from Gecko45 since he went to ground? Haven't been able to locate him for quite some time. PM me if you have any information please.


----------



## pwp (Apr 6, 2017)

Hell is this thread still going? It was April 1 six days ago...

-pw


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 6, 2017)

pwp said:


> Hell is this thread still going? It was April 1 six days ago...



It was NOT an April Fool's post, NOT that that means it wasn't a FOOLISH post with highly APPROPRIATE timing.


----------



## Don Haines (Apr 6, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> I can not see how Canon could sell a large format digital camera for a reasonable price..... you are probably looking at $100,000 plus just for the body, and if you think L glass is expensive, just wait till you go large format! If you are complaining that a 1DX2 and lens is heavy, try carrying around 3 or 4 of them and that should give you an idea as to what humping around a large format camera is like.. and forget about hand held, you NEED that tripod, and it had better be a good one!



To be fair, I also can not understand why there is a market for 800+ HP cars and cars that cost over $1,000,000.... but since there is such a market and it appears to be thriving, it seems that wealth and desire triumph over common sense and practicality.... If the same holds true for large format digital cameras, then somewhere out there are the people willing to put down the big bucks.......


----------



## rrcphoto (Apr 6, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> So while I do admit my PERSONAL dealings with Canon management
> is pretty much non-existent, my friends are anything but unknowledgeable
> about the directions of MANY camera body and sensor makers!
> And I actually DO KNOW more than just a little about sensor
> technology on smartphones. I am no mere technician!



please for the LOVE OF GOD stop pressing enter after 10 words and only after paragraphs.


----------



## midluk (Apr 6, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> please for the LOVE OF GOD stop pressing enter after 10 words and only after paragraphs.


You don't like poetry? 8)


----------



## Don Haines (Apr 6, 2017)

midluk said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > please for the LOVE OF GOD stop pressing enter after 10 words and only after paragraphs.
> ...


Allow me to summarize......


HarryFilm said:


> This is a reformatted copy of an email sent to me from
> colleagues in the Netherlands and Germany in Early 2017
> *** CONFIRMING *** that an in-the-wild test prototype
> was seen in Munich, Germany during a Football match
> ...



and Midluk, it is not just poetry, it is an epic poem.....

I am amazed that one person can have so much detailed information and inside knowledge on such a major project from one of the most secretive companies out there.... Not even Ken Rockwell has such insight!


----------



## Pixel (Apr 6, 2017)

Canon doesn't build "all" of the their sensors. They build their high-end sensors but they purchase many of the sensors used in the consumer stuff from other manufacturers. 



Mikehit said:


> You really should learn how to use the quote function.....
> 
> So given that Canon build all their own sensors, and given that you are doing it already makes you wonder why Canon did not show a smidgeon of this technology in previous models.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mikehit (Apr 6, 2017)

Pixel said:


> Canon doesn't build "all" of the their sensors. They build their high-end sensors but they purchase many of the sensors used in the consumer stuff from other manufacturers.



As far as I am aware the only non-Canon sensors are in point-and-shoots while all DSLR sensors are their own.


----------



## Halfrack (Apr 6, 2017)

If Canon wants to play in the 33x44 MF space, it's fine, someone has to keep Sony on their toes. Making a sensor, but not a whole camera would make sense - products like the GFX and the X1D will help establish the market. Making a sensor that size doesn't mean Canon will come out with their own line up of cameras.


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 7, 2017)

Please note that my posts are from 
OTHER SOURCES --- NOT ME !!!!

I am just REFORMATTING text 
that comes from multiple news sources
which may or may not include people
who are IN or at least CLOSE-TO 
the Canon sphere of influence!

Since I live in North America and my sources
are in and from the Netherlands and Germany,
I am NOT privy to their personal networks
and/or workplace relationships.

I am aggregating many posts into what
many of you here call long-winded and
"poetic" to give a GENERAL overview of
what is thought to be "in-the-Wild" in 
terms of prototype Cameras and insights
into the business of photography gear
including camera bodies, lenses and 
support hardware and software.

it also means that SOME of the information
outlined here MAY BE conjecture or misguided 
viewpoints. It is NOT my job to police that!
I am merely presenting POSSIBLE EVIDENCE 
of new products coming from Canon in
the near and far future.

So don't shoot the messenger!
Stop bugging me about my formatting!
And READ the actual specifications
of what MIGHT BE coming down the 
pipeline.

I do know from our local Canon Dealer 
who has sold us four 1Dc's, two 5D's, 
some C100's, Powershots, Canon lenses
and our other OEM dealer who has sold us
Fujinon lenses up the yin-yang and 
lots of 4K monitors and a whole network 
of very powerful 4k/8k editing capable 
computing/server systems, they are BOTH
indicating that new and exciting products 
in the high end (i.e. EOS C700 Cinema 
and related gear) are coming down the
pipeline and that Canon is "Looking Into MF"
which to me sounds like it means they are 
doing it pretty soon!

This talk coincides with other talk i've heard
about an actual Medium Format body being 
seen In-the-Wild looking near-sales-ready!
It also helps that I MIGHT (not sure though!) 
be able to obtain real-world still photos and
video of an actual Medium Format Canon camera!

I CANNOT OFFER any concrete proof until 
I personally see "The Goods" myself!

So again, we will have to wait and see!

Still I like the idea of Wavelet-based (i.e. JPEG-2000)
still photos at 4:4:4 16 bits per colour channel pixel depths
for its really high dynamic range! I ALSO REALLY LIKE the 
idea of a 4:4:4 16-bits per RGB/YcbCr channel Motion Wavelet 
video CODEC and I like DEFINITELY LIKE 4:2:2 H.265 video 
at user-selectable 8, 10 and 12 bits per channel colour depths.

AND FINALLY I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE IDEA
of 25 frames per second burst shooting speed
at 50 megapixels and 7-to-10 frames per second
at 120 megapixels in a body style is said to be
the same type as but only a little larger than the 
current Canon 1Dx Mk 2. I can live with heavier and 
more expensive lenses especially since someone has
outlined to me they may be made of specialty 
very light-weight flourite glass-ceramic composite
lens elements housed in an almost all-magnesium
alloy lens barrel. That I suspect would make the lenses
for a large format 65mm Medium Format sensor almost 
the same weight as the current Canon L-series lenses!

Go for it Canon! I want this now!
The money for THREE such cameras
and lenses is just waiting for you to take it from me!

GIVE US THAT PRODUCT EXACTLY 
AS OUTLINED ABOVE and my money 
is all yours Canon !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## rrcphoto (Apr 7, 2017)

Halfrack said:


> If Canon wants to play in the 33x44 MF space, it's fine, someone has to keep Sony on their toes. Making a sensor, but not a whole camera would make sense - products like the GFX and the X1D will help establish the market. Making a sensor that size doesn't mean Canon will come out with their own line up of cameras.



what canon needs to do is to make a 300MP "full frame" sensored camera.

the medium format crop format just isn't big enough from full frame 35mm


----------



## applecider (Apr 7, 2017)

Images, images, images, you've told us they exist. 

Time to put the red meat on the table.

Plus I want to see the weightlifter sport shooter handling it. 

No pictures it doesn't exist.


----------



## IglooEater (Apr 7, 2017)

applecider said:


> Images, images, images, you've told us they exist.
> 
> Time to put the red meat on the table.
> 
> ...



Disagree. It's time to put anything on the table... all we've got so far is something any of us could have randomly typed up.


----------



## Fatalv (Apr 7, 2017)

It's amazing this thread is even 4 pages long. I've seen sci-fi movies that are more in touch with reality. I should have made popcorn first before wading through the last 4 pages 

Sadly the phrase "pics or it didn't happen" comes to mind


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 7, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> I do know from our local Canon Dealer
> ...that Canon is "Looking Into MF"
> which to me sounds like it means they are
> doing it pretty soon!



Yes, local brick and mortar shops are a highly respected and accurate source of inside information about Canon's development plans. :

Seriously, you should quit while you're behind. You succeed only in making yourself appear silly.



HarryFilm said:


> AND FINALLY I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE IDEA
> 
> Go for it Canon! I want this now!
> The money for THREE such cameras
> ...



And there it is. You're posting all this bogus information because it's your personal wet dream of product(s) you want. : : :


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 7, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > I do know from our local Canon Dealer
> ...



---

He's no "Local Yokel Dealer" --- his connections run pretty deep back in Japan!
Kinda helps that one of his relatives is a "High Honcho" AT Canon!
He's NOT saying much but he IS smiling coyly because he knows something
BIG is coming down the pipeline that we don't know anything about!
And he travels to Japan A LOT! to it's head offices and it's RnD centres
so HE of all people probably knows THE MOST even more so than probably
my Germany/Netherlands contacts...the problem is He Ain't Talking Much
but Just Smiles Coyly and Nods Head Very Slowly!

AND for you "Pics or Didn't Happen" people, I'll MAKE SURE 
I get and have a response by Tuesday April 11, 2017 from 
Germany/Netherlands as to when/if I will get access 
to those photos/videos of said prototype. 
I will PUSH THIS HARD so that we aren't 
left out of the loop anymore!

This is a hit and miss option but I think it's
time to up the ante in getting some more info!


----------



## Mikehit (Apr 7, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> Please note that my posts are from
> OTHER SOURCES --- NOT ME !!!!
> 
> I am just REFORMATTING text
> ...



I suspect that is the issue here - different ideas floating around and someone (seemingly you) stitching together different unrelated bits to create a picture you want to see. As the old saying goes - a camel is a horse designed by committee.

Have you presented this 'complete picture' to all your acquaintances to see if they agree with the information as a whole?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 7, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Have you presented this 'complete picture' to all your acquaintances to see if they agree with the information as a whole?



He probably showed his good friend the Canon Dealer with deep connections to Canon HQ, who Smiled Coyly and Nodded Very Slowly. 

It occurs to me that a slight smile and slow nod is how I humor my three-year-old when he makes outlandish claims, but that may just be a coincidence.


----------



## scyrene (Apr 7, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> Please note that my posts are from
> OTHER SOURCES --- NOT ME !!!!
> 
> I am just REFORMATTING text
> ...



There is absolutely no reason your text should be formatted differently, everyone else on here is managing to type without pressing return every few words.

As for the content, well the less said about that the better :


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 9, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > Please note that my posts are from
> ...




Actually YES! I send a reply email back with links to my posts here 
and while they are debating amongst themselves as to whether they
feel they should RELEASE the photos and videos they have, I have 
quite implored them that "Just Do It!" It's wasting everyone's time
if they don't release the goods! Again, we shall see what they say and do!

The Proof Will Be In The Pudding!


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 9, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Have you presented this 'complete picture' to all your acquaintances to see if they agree with the information as a whole?
> ...



---

Naaah! I would change that to the type of nod and smile
that one does when they KNOW SOMETHING that is secret
and aren't allowed to talk about it!

Like i've said all along, the PROOF will be in the pudding 
with pics, video and whatever else....we shall see....


----------



## Fleetie (Apr 9, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > HarryFilm said:
> ...


It annoys me when people say variations of "The proof is in the pudding".
What does that even mean? What, if you rip the pudding apart, and delve around, you're going to find some non-specific thing lurking in there that is "the proof"?

The correct proverb is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating.".

There is no "The proof is in the pudding.".

Please try to get it right. It really grates.

If you don't know the phrase correctly, then don't expose yourself by getting it wrong and looking silly.

Yes, bring on the "Dislike"s. 

Given the ludicrous content of the original post of this risible thread, I think this is fair game.

The guy's on a mushroom trip.


----------



## IglooEater (Apr 9, 2017)

Fleetie said:


> It annoys me when people say variations of "The proof is in the pudding".
> What does that even mean? What, if you rip the pudding apart, and delve around, you're going to find some non-specific thing lurking in there that is "the proof"?
> 
> The correct proverb is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating.".
> ...



Thank you, that twisted expression is very annoying

_That would explain a few things... _


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 9, 2017)

Fleetie said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > The Proof Will Be In The Pudding!
> ...



I think he got it right. _His_ 'proof' is in the pudding. Seems sweet, but there's no nutritive informative value, and if you eat too much of it, you'll likely get sick.


----------



## Orangutan (Apr 9, 2017)

Fleetie said:


> It annoys me when people say variations of "The proof is in the pudding".
> What does that even mean? What, if you rip the pudding apart, and delve around, you're going to find some non-specific thing lurking in there that is "the proof"?
> 
> The correct proverb is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating.".



For the most part I agree with you; however, bear in mind that many English-language expressions make little sense in our time, and have developed their own intrinsic meaning. The misuse of the expression only means the guy has never encountered the original expression, nor been curious about its origin. Hmmm...someone who's not curious or skeptical about what he hears...oddly, that seems to fit here.


----------



## Don Haines (Apr 9, 2017)

I have a few problems with the entire thread.....

First, Canon is a very secretive company and the release of such information (pixel sizes, frame rates, performance, etc, etc, etc), is unparalleled and flies in the face of non disclosure agreements. 

Secondly, the numbers do not make sense..... it has 5 percent better performance than a 1DX2 I per pixel, yet has twice the pixel count and 4 times the sensor area? 

Thirdly, we have a situation where one person "knows the truth" and there is no Independent confirmation......

This would be rated CR -9....... good for entertainment, but about as reliable as reports that Elvis is still alive and lives in a secret base on the far side of the moon.....


----------



## danski0224 (Apr 9, 2017)

I've been looking in pudding for years, searching for the elusive proof, and never found any. So much wasted pudding, even chocolate pudding.

Now, I learn that I should have been eating the pudding. Dammit.

Time to make a fresh batch.


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 10, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> I have a few problems with the entire thread.....
> 
> First, Canon is a very secretive company and the release of such information (pixel sizes, frame rates, performance, etc, etc, etc), is unparalleled and flies in the face of non disclosure agreements.
> 
> ...



===

Now THIS COMMENT is definitely in my area of expertise!

Light-gathering performance is not linear in most CMOS chip 
circuitry processes because of MULTIPLE issues such as the 
data transfer rate between sensor sites to CPU/GPU and the 
quality of ADC (Analog-to-Digiotal Convertor) circuits
such as would be present on such a large size MF camera.

The amount of TIME required to do any ADC, Anti-aliasing
and YCbCr/RGB pixels conversion PER FRAME! Remember,
we are also talking about around 2,5 times the amount of 
pixel data versus the 1Dx Mk2 (20 megapixels vs 50 megapixels) 
AND if that 25 fps burst shooting rate is true THEN there is
also much less time to do it in! That means a 5% announced 
quality increase is actually MUCH MUCH BETTER than 
I would have normally expected! In fact, by many
metrics, quality SHOULD BE WORSE than the 
1Dxmk2 if this Canon MF camera really does
shoot at 25 fps! If that much engineering
has gone into into to give us that much of 
a 5% quality increase such as reduced noise
levels and better low-light photography
then I think we are in for a REAL TREAT!

In terms of NDA's, our dealer has SAID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to me!
He merely nodded slowly and smiled coyly BUT IN MY BOOK that is 
good enough for me! Something BIG is coming down the pipeline
from Canon!

And my contacts in Germany/Netherlands are NOT employees 
of Canon and have NO contractual obligation to Canon AT ALL!!!
AND if they DO have the public videos of a seen-in-the-wild
camera then TOUGH BEANS! That's now public knowledge taken 
from a publicly accessible place -- Again, tough beans on that
as there is NO contractual/NDA obligation upon those persons!

And I saw the first photo via a videophone this weekend 
and I can now tell you that in my opinion, this is NOT BUNK 
and I also can give you a better description. It DEFINITELY 
looks like a beefed-up Canon 1Dx Mk2. Based upon the size 
of the hands in the photos I would say this camera is about 
1,5 to 1,75 times the width and height of the 1Dx mk2 
but not that much thicker front-to-back

I have some Canon 1Dc cameras, so I am saying
it's DEFINITELY a bigger camera but from the description
of the video as described to me (I have not seen THAT YET!) 
the weight I do not think will be an issue as I understand that 
lenses and body will be lighter-weight magnesium alloy
and lighter-weight LIKELY flourite-ceramic (i.e. PROBABLY 
alumina-like flouro-Al2 O3) lenses. Since the "Canon Engineer"
was a smallish-gentleman and was manhandling the lens/body
like it was nothing, I expect weight to be a non-issue here!

I can tell you that the lens is HUGE! Based upon
the size of Arri-65 film/cinema cameras I've used, 
I am going to estimate the sensor size would be 
considered LIKELY to be a full 65mm Arri-65 cinema 
like in size! It's a monster lens which looked like it
was probably an 85mm prime lens as a guess! 
There was NO SHUTTER NOISE as was described 
to me so it was definitely mirrorless and the live-view
screen was MUCH BIGGER than the 1Dxmk2's!

When I get the ACTUAL JPEG/MPEG photo and video files
sent by email to me I will show them here! A video phone
call does not do what I saw justice!

NOW in terms of actual specifications, it is NOT CLEAR TO ME
as to HOW those were obtained and sent to me! I cannot state
anything more on that as I simply DO NOT KNOW the background
of the rather VERY SPECIFIC CAMERA SPECIFICATIONS!
Those will need verification but based upon OTHER people's
gravevine talk I have been privy to, those specs are not
totally out-of-line from what i've heard previously.
It seems to be a Canon IMPERATIVE that full-sensor
size shooting burst rate was ALWAYS MEANT to be
at least 24/25 frames per second at 50 megapixels!
I've been told Canon wants to COMPLETELY OWN
the pro sports/action/wildlife photography side of 
things and a 25 fps MF camera would DEFINITELY DO THAT!

...AND...

I've also heard they want to bring down the prices 
of Phase One/Hasselblad portrait/landscape quality 
downto less stratospheric price levels! And a 120 
megapixels (7-to10 fps) 1Dx Mk2 style body at 
10 000 to 16 000 Euros would ALSO do that!

So in my books, this is now a CR-1 rumour!

So phooey on you "Proof is in the Pudding" naysayers
which is actually a North American expression
anyways, not a Euro expression!

I'm eating' the pudding because right now it looks delicious!

Kudos to Canon --- My money is waiting for you to take it!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 10, 2017)

:


----------



## tpatana (Apr 10, 2017)

Alea iacta est. The beer has been cast.


----------



## Don Haines (Apr 10, 2017)

The proof IS in the pudding, and since it is pistachio pudding, the proof is NUTS!


----------



## Don Haines (Apr 10, 2017)

Fleetie said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > The Proof Will Be In The Pudding!
> ...


some of the butchered versions of sayings are better than the original....

"All's well that ends well" becomes "All's well that ends"
"Necessity is the mother of invention" becomes "Necessity is a mother"


----------



## Fleetie (Apr 10, 2017)

I think maybe someone had had a little too much cider! :-[

I apologise for the rant, earlier, everyone.


----------



## IglooEater (Apr 10, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> This would be rated CR -9....... good for entertainment, but about as reliable as reports that *Elvis is still alive and lives in a secret base on the far side of the moon.....*



You never know..... someone on the internet says he received an anonymous email from someone who says they saw pictures once of something that might not disprove it.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 16, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Have you presented this 'complete picture' to all your acquaintances to see if they agree with the information as a whole?
> ...



Surely this connected man could help us find Gecko45. Find Gecko45 (in charge of Canon's company secrets) and we reveal the true identity of the leaker.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 16, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I have a few problems with the entire thread.....
> ...



Are you Gecko45? I've been trying to contact you for years. Please PM me.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 17, 2017)

Internet Commando protecting Canon's secrets while putting them all on display with a coy smile and nod.


----------



## rrcphoto (Apr 18, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> This is a reformatted copy of an email sent to me from
> colleagues in the Netherlands and Germany in Early 2017



you shouldn't have reformatted it 

in reality, there's nothing stopping canon from making larger than full frame sensors.

back in the early days of full frame (and they may still be doing it) canon full frame sensors were made up of three stitched exposures on the wafer.

a larger than full frame sensor is 4 stitched images. that's exactly how sony makes them now.

aps-h was chosen originall as the largest non-stitched sensor canon could create.

so if we look at 4x aps-h that's how much canon *could* make with existing processes and still be rather economical. the yields would be less because you have more surface area for imperfections.

29mm x 18.5mm = 55mm x 36.5mm stitched approximately 

this would be slightly smaller when you move it to the 645 ratios of the 55x40mm 100mp sensor used by phaseone and hassy, but if you used it as a 3:2's ratio the same as canon's other sensors, you're pretty damned close to the same perspective.

the ultimate 1Ds replacement? given the large throat, and ALSO the large registration distance of the EF mount - could a mirrorless 1Ds with an EF mount that also excepts - EF-X lenses work with it? if it's an EF lens, it goes down to 35mm full frame image size in "crop mode" - approximately a 1.5 crop.

keep in mind that the EF mount has a 54mm throat diamater, with a registration distance of 44mm. this is more than enough "room" to host a larger sensor. if it's mirrorless you don't need to support the large mirror required for the optical viewfinder.

the image sensor could easily have around 45mp DPAF (current 5D Mark IV) to around 75mp (5Ds) to also around 180MP if they choose to use the 120MP 5Ds Mark II sensor in it.

a full .75 Full frame cropped camera with 180MP, cropped down to 120MP in EF lens mode with canon's ergonomics, large battery of a 1 series body for under 10k would probably simply remove the entire market. Canon would drop the mic, walk off the stage and everyone else try to decide what other jobs they are going to go into. I'm not sure Canon would be that predatory - they aren't by nature unless it's against their core business lines.

Conversely if that's what the 120MP DSLR that canon stated is IN development is - then we've have a 120MP medium format with a 80MP EF crop mode. oh woe.

The EF mount can adapt every single medium format type except leaf shutter lenses, so still having a high degree of medium format compatibility.

After musing and writing it all out - it wouldn't surprise me if canon WAS testing such a beast, this would however go through ALOT of field testing IN field testing, they'd probably be using older tech DIGIC's, heat spreaders, etc making the camera beefier than the production unit. Certainly possible - however still probably falling flat on the need in the market for such a camera. 

however Hassy and Fuji may have dusted off these projects again. with canon's DPAF sensors. the newer DIGIC 7 that is 16 times faster than DIGIC 6, there's the potential of doing alot more but still with current EOS technology to reduce the overall unit cost.

I'd sell my first born for such a camera -just don't tell her that, it was her birthday today.


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 19, 2017)

TO: rrcphoto

---

So I have some VERY exciting news coming from 
my Netherlands/Germany contacts who have told 
me a big leak from THEIR sources is coming out
AFTER NAB 2017. Evidently, an entire "Leak Video"
has been produced by their sources showcasing 
the new Canon 50 megapixel and 120 megapixel
Medium Format cameras in the WILD! So it looks 
like BOTH VERSIONS are coming at the same time! 
This video is said to contain footage filmed in Japan 
and in Germany and one of the segments purports 
to show a DETAILED CLOSE-UP interior and exterior 
view of a pre-production 50 megapixel mirrorless 
Medium Format sensor test model within a large 
1Dx-mk2 style sports body with a large 
prime lens attached!

It is also been disclosed to me that seven test images 
were obtained. Three 4:4:4 16-bits per colour channel 
JPEG-2000 format Wavelet compressed image files
were each obtained from the 50 megapixel and 
the 120 megapixel model. 

One RAW unprocessed photo was also obtained from 
the 120 megapixel model at full resolution. I do NOT
KNOW the description or content of the imagery 
or where the photos were taken! It was disclosed
to me that Canon will at least ANNOUNCE the 
cameras sometime in 2nd quarter 2018 with 
sales starting by 4th Quarter 2018 or 1st quarter 2019.
I suspect that the 2018 Winter Olympics will 
be used for real-world testing of prototypes!
This differs from earlier notes to me where
an earlier announce date was envisioned.

It was finally disclosed to me that the sources 
have PHYSICAL PROOF that the 50 megapixel 
burst shooting rate is indeed Global Shutter-based 
25 frames per second on both RAW and JPEG-2000! 
I do NOT have the tested burst frame rate of the 
120 megapixel model except that a 7-to-10 frames 
per second also using Global Shutter Mirrorless 
was mentioned.

Since Extraordinary Claims have been made, 
I asked for extraordinary proof and it SEEMS 
I am to be obliged after NAB 2017!

If I do receive those images and/or video,
I will post them here or at least provide links.
As a note I have had NO confirmation, nor any
information from ANY Canon Dealer nor from
ANY of our other video products dealers.
So whatever is coming down the pipeline,
I can say that everyone in the OFFICIAL 
Canon world is sealing their lips tightly!

Again, we shall see IF the Proof really IS in the Pudding!

--

ON a technical note:

I have seen single pass CMOS chips from Teledyne-Dalsa
the size of an entire 8.5x11 inch sheet of paper at 16k+
resolutions so NO STITCHING of chips is required these days.

Arri DOES do that sort of stitching you describe with
their Alexa-65 cinema camera which I think is technically 
a Philips Semiconductor or related company manufactured 
sensor (not sure though!). They would do that for ease of 
manufacture which means some considerable cost savings. 

For a company like Canon, I don't think this will be 
an issue since they HAVE their OWN sensor fabs 
and a 65mm MF sensor can easily fit on 200mm 
silicon discs at a reasonable cost and
since the sensor photosites at 65 mm MF
would be quite large, they don't need a 
fancy UV-based lithographic process for
the chips which would reduce costs by
an enormous amount!

Canon is NOT Intel, who spends 4 billion
US dollars on a single CMOS Computer CPU Fab. 
Canon doesn't need Intel's 14 nanometre CPU-making 
processes and DOES NOT need 300mm substrates!

The much cheaper CMOS Fabs on 200mm 
silicon discs at 45 or 90 nm chipmaking 
processes would be just fine for Canon!

For cooling, I fully expect a powerful passive
cooling system will be used using lots of internal
heat sinks and a sealed air-or-liquid thermal 
exchange system. I don't think we will see
vent holes or fan-based cooling.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Apr 19, 2017)

Wow, this is some rumor!

Jack


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 19, 2017)

Jack Douglas said:


> Wow, this is some rumor!
> 
> Jack



---

I agree that is QUITE THE UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMOUR 

...BUT.... 

since my contacts within the Netherlands and Germany 
have been 90% right in the past, I am going to give 
them the benefit of my doubt.

If I see a decently produced video and 
some real-world photos then we can go 
from CR-5 to CR-1.

from a BUSINESS STANDPOINT, i think this
makes perfect sense because at a 10 000 to
16 000 Euro price point, I do know a LOT of
professional sports/wildlife photographers 
would almost immediately switch to ANY 
25 fps 50 megapixel camera!

And if such a 25 fps 50 megapixel camera 
came from Canon in a pro-level 1Dxmk2-like 
body style then Nikon and Sony might as well 
pack up and go home, as Canon would just 
OWN ALL OF THAT MARKET!

It's the 25 fps that kills it!
It's the one feature in any
Medium Format sensor that
would cause Canon to take 
over almost ALL Sports/Wildlife 
still/video imaging within two years!

If this "New Canon MF Camera Rumour" 
is true at 25 fps 50 megapixels at 4:4:4 
16 bits per channel RAW and JPEG-2000 
Wavelet image file formats, then everyone 
else BECOMES DEAD IN THE WATER !!!!!!!!!!!

I can barely keep the excitement in check
until after NAB 2017 when this "Video Leak"
is purported to be released!

I'm Crossing My Fingers!


----------



## rs (Apr 19, 2017)

I thought the agreement was all of these shenanigans finish at noon on the 1st?


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 19, 2017)

rs said:


> I thought the agreement was all of these shenanigans finish at noon on the 1st?



---

Please be aware I have 25+ years of high end
video and still photography experience going back 
into the analogue 1980's! I also have DECADES of 
CPU/GPU systems design experience and also 
DECADES of low-level software systems 
programming experience.

I think it is QUITE LIKELY I might just 
have A LOT MORE INDUSTRY CONTACTS 
AND EXPERIENCE than you do when
it comes to the electronics world
rumour mill. My contacts run DEEP
into the LARGEST electronics and 
aerospace companies in the world!
Some are at the SENIOR-MOST
EXECUTIVE SUITE LEVEL!

At this point, I am going to give my 
Netherlands and Germany contacts
the BENEFIT of the doubt.

While this rumour is TRULY UNSUBSTANTIATED,
I will STILL give it some HIGH PERSONAL CREDENCE
due to the seniority of said contacts being employed by
and/or affiliated with notable users and purchasers of 
very high end video/still photography equipment!
Since the purchasing budgets of these concerns 
TEND to run into the tens of millions of Euros,
I think they might HAVE AN INSIDE TRACK as 
to what might REALLY be coming down the pipeline!

And this being the "CanonRUMORS" website,
I will stick with my contacts having valid enough
information that Canon MF 25fps 50/120 megapixel
large-sensor camera systems coming real-soon-now,
is a rumour that just MIGHT HAVE some CR-1 or 
CR-2 water in the bucket!

Again, we shall see and may the 
Pudding Proof be a very tasty one!


----------



## Mikehit (Apr 19, 2017)

50MP burst at 25 frames per second? To put that in perspective, that is 5x the data throughput as the 1Dx2 (20MP, 14fps) - and given that they kept the 1Dx2 at 20MP to permit the processor to manage 14fps that is a huge leap. You also need to consider that they are limited by the speed at which the card can write data.
Either the buffer is only 5 frames (0.2 seconds, no good for wildlife) or they have multiple processors which means a significantly bigger camera. And who has developed a new CF card for that speed?


----------



## Aglet (Apr 19, 2017)

but it would not be as impressive as the LS911 for sheer size of sensor.
If size matters and you wanna get BIG, don't putz around. 

http://largesense.com/












does raw 4k video too.


----------



## mb66energy (Apr 19, 2017)

@Aglet:
Funny camera, sensor is larger than my notebooks screen ...
Only drawbacks: 12MPix only + monochrome only.
But using the unique look with large format lenses + tilt / shift + 4k movie + RGB colors with RGB filter sets would make the use of such a anachronistic dinosaur cam an adventure! But the price near 100 000 $ is a little bit too high at the moment


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 19, 2017)

Still we have only a big wall of words and NO pictures. So I will share a PICTURE.


----------



## Orangutan (Apr 19, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Still we have only a big wall of words and NO pictures. So I will share a PICTURE.



Yeah, but at least he concedes that it's an extraordinary claim and requires extraordinary evidence. He also claims the evidence will come soon after NAB, so we get to poke fun at the claims for another few weeks; after that, he'll either have the goods or he won't. If we don't see evidence by mid-May I think the CR Supreme Court will be ready to hand down a ruling of "shenanigans."


----------



## Hector1970 (Apr 19, 2017)

I'm sure it's not beyond the bounds of possibilities Canon are looking at medium format and I'm sure a group like the military might order a very specialised type of camera with an extra large sensor and a high frame rate. However the whole tread and the information in it sounds like coming from someone with an over active imagination and is probably finding this thread very funny.
Maybe the camera is being used to photograph UFO's.


----------



## Orangutan (Apr 19, 2017)

Hector1970 said:


> Maybe the camera is being used to photograph UFO's.



Get real! Everyone knows that UFO's appear only on Sony sensors.


----------



## NancyP (Apr 19, 2017)

I could go for a 4" x 5" sensor weighing under 5 pounds. Even monochrome. Semi-affordable, though.


----------



## rrcphoto (Apr 19, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> TO: rrcphoto
> 
> ---
> 
> ...



I'm sorry I can't read your S___. use proper sentences in here. Please and thank you.


----------



## rrcphoto (Apr 19, 2017)

Hector1970 said:


> I'm sure it's not beyond the bounds of possibilities Canon are looking at medium format and I'm sure a group like the military might order a very specialised type of camera with an extra large sensor and a high frame rate. However the whole tread and the information in it sounds like coming from someone with an over active imagination and is probably finding this thread very funny.
> Maybe the camera is being used to photograph UFO's.



I'm thinking elvis has one already.


----------



## scyrene (Apr 19, 2017)

Orangutan said:


> Hector1970 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the camera is being used to photograph UFO's.
> ...



I was gonna say, this is the perfect camera for photographing Bigfoot :


----------



## Don Haines (Apr 19, 2017)

scyrene said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Hector1970 said:
> ...


but unlike bigfoot, only one person claims to have seen the camera....


----------



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 19, 2017)

Well this thread was a fun read, I missed it from a few weeks ago.

As far as we know, there are only 2 DSLRs and 1 Cinema EOS camera coming the rest of the 2017.


EOS 6D Mark II
EOS Rebel SL2
Cinema EOS C200 (won't be C100 Mark III)

If that changes, we'll let you know.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 19, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> As far as we know, there are only 2 DSLRs and 1 Cinema EOS camera coming the rest of the 2017.



So that means this 120 MP medium format mirrorless with a full complement of lenses is coming in 2018, right? Well, at least the 50 fps frame rate will come in handy to capture the droplets of rainbow juice in unicorn farts. I assume the new system will come with a 1000mm f/4...as we all know, unicorns are skittish creatures.


----------



## HarryFilm (Apr 19, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> Well this thread was a fun read, I missed it from a few weeks ago.
> 
> As far as we know, there are only 2 DSLRs and 1 Cinema EOS camera coming the rest of the 2017.
> 
> ...



====

****************
***** SPECIAL NOTE: The math stated below is WRONG!
***** A second comment below this message gives a full explanation
***** as to why, but this message will be left AS IS for posterity's sake!
***** "HarryFilm"
**************** 

As per a previous poster I am CONCEDING that my statements are UNSUBSTANTIATED and as of yet UNCONFIRMED! ...BUT....on a personal level, I do must give some considerable weight to those rumours due to the credibility and credentials of the Netherlands/Germany contacts. Again, we shall about how much proof is in the old pudding and do wait and see until after NAB 2017.

On another subject, in terms of speed of 25 fps burst rate, the math is as follows:

8192h x 6036v pixels = 49,446,912 pixels 
at 48 bits per pixel (16 bits per RGB/YCbCr colour channel)

= 148,340,736 bytes per frame x 25 fps 

= 3,708,518,400 bytes per second or about 3.7 Gigabytes per second RAW.

from a computing perspective even at the 700 MHZ to 1.5 GHZ of most ARM-based CPU chips such as the DIGIC-6 and DIGIC-7, one only needs four gigabytes of DRAM or VRAM to hold that before writing out to SSD/Flash Cards in 30 seconds or less on the cheaper Flash Cards. To add four gigabytes of VRAM and a decent interface between the memory and the DIGIC chip would be less than 75 Euros for Canon!

The fastest Flash Cards that could still be considered affordable are around 100 megabytes per second with the best at 160 megs per second. With dual cards you could stripe/interleave the image writing and move 4 gigabytes from VRAM to Fast Flash in 10-to-15 seconds or less which on a technical basis for RAW uncompressed format is pretty good!

For Wavelet based JPEG-2000 images 10:1 to 30:1 compression rates, I will calculate a rate of less then 5 seconds to transfer 4 gigabytes to interleaved fast dual Flash Cards. If the SATA interface option is true, then write speeds of 500+ megabytes per second would be possible so two or three seconds for four gigabytes of RAW images when using striped mode is all that would be needed in terms of write time. (i.e. two SATA drives writing at same time). JPEG-2000 compressed images would have an unlimited write time at 25 fps at 10:1 to 30:1 compression rates to SATA drives.

Again, this is NOT a technically difficult thing to do. In my own workplace we transfer multi-terabyte video files and even whole PETABYTE (1000 Terabyte files!) in mere tens of seconds using multiple 100 gigabit Ethernet connections and RAID-0-to-RAID-5 drives. So for a company as big as Canon, this is not a big deal to accomplish at a reasonable price. This is probably ONE REASON why one of the specifications that was emailed to me indicated that an attached twin-drive SATA interface was available so that 4 gigabytes worth of 25 fps RAW image files could be transferred to disk in less than 3 to 5 seconds. That's an EDUCATED GUESS on my part but my calculations seem to hold up when I look at them a few times.

Again, we shall see soon enough......


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## Fleetie (Apr 19, 2017)

_8192h x 6036v pixels = 49,446,912 pixels __at __*48 bits per pixel*_
_(16 bits per RGB/YCbCr colour channel)= *148,340,736* bytes per frame x 25 fps = 3,708,518,400 bytes per second _
_or about 3.7 Gigabytes per second RAW._


Surely that should be 296,681,472 bytes per frame, i.e. a factor of 2 more than you claim?
Which in turn gives 6.9GB (GiB) per second?


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## Mikehit (Apr 19, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> On another subject, in terms of speed of 25 fps burst rate, the math is as follows:
> 
> 8192h x 6036v pixels = 49,446,912 pixels
> at 48 bits per pixel (16 bits per RGB/YCbCr colour channel)
> ...



Striping images to dual cards? Have you ANY idea how a professional photographer works? 
From what you say, without striping, shoot 1 second of 25 fps and it takes 15 seconds to write to the card? Either I misunderstand what you are talking about, or you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to understanding that photographers actually need....

'pretty good' won't cut it. 

So let me ask a simple question, 25 frames per second at 50MP per frame, 3 seconds shooting raw, requirement of a 60-frame buffer cleared within (for example) 5 seconds? (most people say with a CFast card the 1Dx2 is essentially unlimited shooting capacity.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 19, 2017)

Fleetie said:


> Surely that should be 296,681,472 bytes per frame, i.e. a factor of 2 more than you claim?
> Which in turn gives 6.9GB (GiB) per second?



Surely you're not questioning his DECADES of experience and copious EXPERTISE in this subject matter?


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## Don Haines (Apr 19, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Fleetie said:
> 
> 
> > Surely that should be 296,681,472 bytes per frame, i.e. a factor of 2 more than you claim?
> ...


Now now..... play nice....

besides, aren't we talking 
about 50 FPS anyway?

That gives us 13.8GB
of data per second so
it would be quite 
unreasonable to expect
on-the-fly compression
of the raw files.

A fast memory card
will let you store about
0.16GB per second, 
but you can stripe 
them to improve 
throughput so having
eight of them would
allow you to store the
images at 1.28GB per
second, and if you had
ninety of them you
could keep up with a
full speed burst.

Of course, nobody is
going to put 90 memory
cards into a camera,
but eight is practical. 
when it is time to move
the images to your
computer, just put a 
card into the reader
and download the files,
then another card, and
another, and another
until the eight cards are
read, and then run a
program to re-assemble
the images, and off you 
go!


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## HarryFilm (Apr 20, 2017)

Fleetie said:


> _8192h x 6036v pixels = 49,446,912 pixels __at __*48 bits per pixel*_
> _(16 bits per RGB/YCbCr colour channel)= *148,340,736* bytes per frame x 25 fps = 3,708,518,400 bytes per second _
> _or about 3.7 Gigabytes per second RAW._
> 
> ...



===

Ooops! You Are Correct! Mea Culpa!

For some DUMB REASON I gave the 24 bit colour (i.e. 3 bytes per pixel) value rather than the 6 bytes per pixel value. I will let the above message stand as is to allow for corrections by others SO HERE IS THE CHANGED MATH:

8192h x 6036v pixels at 16 bits (2 bytes) per colour channel = 48 bit colour
or 6 bytes per pixel = 49,446,912 pixels (48 bits per pixel) 

= 296,681,472 bytes per frame x 25 fps

= 7,417,036,800 bytes per second or 7.4 gigabytes per second

which means 8 gigabytes of VRAM (about 140 euros) would be needed to store 1 second of burst rate RAW format images. So, for the typical 3 second burst that means 24 gigabytes or about 420 euros worth of VRAM which is a bit suspect but still technically doable for Medium Format RAW image writing.

For image writing speed at 160 megabytes per second for the FASTEST Flash Cards, let us assume that a dual fast card using interleaved writing of whole images will be used where Image #1 goes to Card Slots #1 and Image #2 goes to Card Slot #2 at the same time. So for 3 seconds of imagery (75 RAW photos at 25 fps) at 160 megs/second it would take 75 seconds to dump to two fast flash cards.

YES! I concede that sounds a bit ridiculous there!

Hmmm....at 500 megabytes per second dual SATA SSD drives for 24 gigabytes worth (75 raw images - 3 Seconds of RAW format burst rate imagery) the write time would be about 24 seconds for a dual SATA SSD drive system.

For JPEG-2000 4:4:4 48-bit colour Wavelet compressed images at 10:1 compression we would be looking at less than three seconds to dump 75 images (3 seconds at 25 fps) to the dual SATA SSD!!! That looks doable!

OK! I ALSO CONCEDE this is starting looking a bit more and more ridiculous...but who knows...maybe someone at Canon could have thought up something to counter the math I have calculated so far.

Comments and Flames here on in are all welcome!


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## HarryFilm (Apr 20, 2017)

TO: neuroanatomist and Don Haines:

Now you're just getting cheeky with the text formatting there (which I've changed by the way!)  ;-)  

So again, I will concede the math is starting to look a bit suspect at the moment for allowing a 25 fps RAW Canon Medium Format Large-Sensor camera to exist but for JPEG-2000 4:4:4 48 bit colour it would be TECHNICALLY DOABLE using twin SATA drives embedded within the grip assembly. 

Hmmm....looks like we shall have to see what gives with my sources and their "Leak Video" and what sort of explanation is forthcoming from them and the video....!!!!

So keep your fingers crossed until after NAB 2017....!!!


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## Don Haines (Apr 20, 2017)

To be fair, there probably are a few prototypes out there..... but usually prototypes do not result in a commercial product, usually they are about learning...

I, for one, expect to see a FF canon mirrorless camera in a relatively short time. It would make sense that the prototypes for them are in a body that is physically larger than the final product would be... and I would expect to see frame rates of 50FPS.

As to storage, I would expect to see a cross between compact Flash and a SS drive. If you can do 90MBps on a micro-SD, then something the physical size of a CF card (with a lot more pins than an SD card) should be able to hit GB speeds.

Anyway, none of us know what the future will bring, particularly since Canon is so secretive, but it is a lot of fun speculating and I hope all realize that the ribbing here is in good humour.


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## HarryFilm (Apr 20, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Fleetie said:
> 
> 
> > Surely that should be 296,681,472 bytes per frame, i.e. a factor of 2 more than you claim?
> ...



===

For MikeHit and Neuroanatomist:

I very much know how pro photographers work and such a scenario is UTTERLY UNACCEPTABLE to them...That's fine to point out as it brings up some important points to address as part of an UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMOUR.

Ergo, your point is well taken and such a long write time would likely be a HUGE PROBLEM for most pros! That said, I suspect something interesting will happen and the supposed upcoming "Leak Video" may or may not address this!

So keep the educated comments coming because THIS IS GETTING INTERESTING!


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## Don Haines (Apr 20, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> TO: neuroanatomist and Don Haines:
> 
> Now you're just getting cheeky with the text formatting there (which I've changed by the way!)  ;-)
> 
> ...


Harry, I would love to be wrong, and I hope you know that it is all kidding. If you are ever in Ottawa, Canada, stop by for a beer, or even a shot of maple vodka!


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## Don Haines (Apr 20, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Fleetie said:
> ...


At some point, it could be time to start forgetting about memory cards and go with internal SS storage, and for getting the data off-camera, wireless has a long way to go. (we are playing with wireless at 120GHZ in the lab), and there is always LiFi......


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## HarryFilm (Apr 20, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > TO: neuroanatomist and Don Haines:
> ...



===

Thank you! As an aside I am in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada and only 3000km+ from Ottawa, but I film EVERYWHERE in the world! My contacts in the Netherlands and Germany, are still fairly major people within the Hollywood and Eurosports video and still photography world AND FOR THE NEXT TWO WEEKS (i.e. until after NAB 2017!), I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Something is coming! I don't really know much! Only What is Presented Here!
...BUT....it's probably "Gonna Be Reeeeeaaaal Good!"

We shall see.....  ;-)


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## HarryFilm (Apr 20, 2017)

OH WOW !!!!!!

Look what Sony has brought to the table TODAY!!!!

20 FPS at 24.2 megapixels!!!

Can Canon be far behind ??? 25 fps at 50 megapixels ??? !!!

===

SONY NEWS:

Link to original story:
http://www.canonrumors.com/off-brand-sony-announces-the-a9/


Groundbreaking Full-frame Mirrorless Camera Delivers Unmatched Speed, Versatility and Usability

World’s First1 full-frame stacked CMOS sensor, 24.2 MP2 resolution
Blackout-Free Continuous Shooting3 at up to 20fps4 for up to 241 RAW5/ 362 JPEG6 images
Silent7, Vibration-free shooting at speeds up to 1/32,000 sec8
693 point focal plane phase detection AF points with 60 AF/AE tracking calculations per second
Extensive professional features including Ethernet port for file transfer, Dual SD card slots and extended battery life
5-Axis in-body image stabilization with a 5.0 step9 shutter speed advantage

NEW YORK, Apr. 19, 2017 – Sony Electronics, a worldwide leader in digital imaging and the world’s largest image sensor manufacturer, has today introduced their new revolutionary digital camera, the α9 (model ILCE-9).


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## Orangutan (Apr 20, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> even a shot of maple vodka!



Maple vodka!  Say it ain't so! What a horrible waste of ambrosia! True vodka's greatness comes from the fact that it distills epic misery from a humble yet reliable source of sustenance.


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## Aglet (Apr 20, 2017)

NancyP said:


> I could go for a 4" x 5" sensor weighing under 5 pounds. Even monochrome. Semi-affordable, though.



"affordable" is... ya, sorry. I don't think they'll get the cost down a whole lot for the 4x5" but it should be out later this year and looks somewhat more _tote-able_... ?? 
Mid 5 digits in usd$..?

The *9x11 inch COLOR* sensor looks like a special order
see VERSIONS near bottom of this page:

http://largesense.com/products/8x10-large-format-digital-back-ls911/

experimental *color-wheel* for those who need color stills:
http://largesense.com/products/color-wheel/

Ya, it's expensive, but so's a Hassy. 
I think the LS would be a lot of fun to shoot with tho.


*4x5 (5x5) inch later this year* in monochrome with possible color version
somewhat more portable

http://largesense.com/products/4x5-large-format-digital-back-ls55/


*4x4" 200MP* in musing-stage but would be a very nice alternative to a film back for some work.

http://largesense.com/products/4x4-200-mega-pixel-large-format-digital-back-monster-ls44/


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## Aglet (Apr 20, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> OH WOW !!!!!!
> 
> Look what Sony has brought to the table TODAY!!!!
> 
> ...



yes?
Sounds like Sony put buffer memory right on the sensor assembly... and lots of it!
How would Canon decide to read and store image data on their MFD unit, similar system to Sony with lots of sync'd ADCs?


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## scyrene (Apr 20, 2017)

Orangutan said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > even a shot of maple vodka!
> ...



I thought it sounded nice :-\


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## HarryFilm (Apr 20, 2017)

Aglet said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > OH WOW !!!!!!
> ...



---

This is an EASY task, we do it on our own systems here at work!

We bond an ARM-type processor Core-or-16 directly to a CMOS sensor adding an in-between liquid cooling layer containing microchannels. (You need to licence the microchannel cooling technology patents from IBM but it's fairly cheap!) and etch in Static RAM right next to the ARM CPU/GPU components running at the same clock speed. Hellish Expensive for so much static ram (16 gigabytes) to do but since our systems cost $750,000 US+ PER camera they're not in the same league as Canon!

Canon could do the same but use L3-type off-cpu VRAM cache which is a LOT CHEAPER to BUILD than Static RAM memory running at the same speed as the cpu core. For cooling, some machined aluminum fins bonded directly to the the chip assembly along with solid copper OR aluminum piping connected to the outer body SHOULD be enough to cool the system using radiative heat transfer methods without using vent holes thus keeping the weather sealing that Canon is well-noted for in it's 1Dx-style cameras.

AND based upon what I have heard from MORE THAN ONE SOURCE, Canon will do exactly that in using a stacked CMOS sensor bonded to an ARM CPU/GPU (DIGIC-7/8?) and off-chip L3-style VRAM cache (4-to-8+ gigabytes?) with attached piping and then radiative cooling to outer body...We shall see if that's true......!!!!!!!


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## HarryFilm (Apr 21, 2017)

On a slightly different tack, since NAB 2017 is right around the corner all these new camera announcement will likely prove or disprove SOME of the statements I have made within this thread. So we shall take a most-close look and dissect all the upcoming manufacturer announcements.


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## Orangutan (May 2, 2017)

HarryFilm said:


> On a slightly different tack, since NAB 2017 is right around the corner all these new camera announcement will likely prove or disprove SOME of the statements I have made within this thread. So we shall take a most-close look and dissect all the upcoming manufacturer announcements.



Harry, it's been almost 2 weeks, are there any updates?


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## Monchoon (May 20, 2017)

Orangutan said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > On a slightly different tack, since NAB 2017 is right around the corner all these new camera announcement will likely prove or disprove SOME of the statements I have made within this thread. So we shall take a most-close look and dissect all the upcoming manufacturer announcements.
> ...



Harry where are those updates on this? :


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## Don Haines (May 20, 2017)

Monchoon said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > HarryFilm said:
> ...



I talked to friend who knows someone who works for Canon as a photocopier repairman, and he says that he saw a camera that was significantly larger than a cell phone, so that confirms the rumor......


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