# Article: The 5 Reasons Why I Switched Back to Canon From Sony



## Canon Rumors Guy (Mar 12, 2018)

```
There has been a lot of stories over the last year or so from people that have left Canon for Sony, only to return later. A few of the big reasons we’ve seen for the return to Canon center around support, reliability, professional services and repair times.</p>
<p>The <a href="https://petapixel.com/2018/03/10/5-reasons-switched-back-canon-sony/">latest article</a> seems to center around Canon’s industry leading video auto focus and color science.</p>
<p><strong>From PetaPixel:</strong></p>
<blockquote><p><strong>Better Color Science</strong></p>
<p>Overall, I feel Canon has much better color rendition when it comes to reproducing colors and providing natural hues in the way we expect them to look. I have spent a lot of time editing Sony video footage trying to get it to look right in post. When I shoot video with Canon Log though I simply apply a LUT (a Look Up Table file created and supplied by Canon) to my Canon video files in post and, with basically just one mouse click, I get more or less perfectly color graded Rec.709 footage. Something I can say isn’t as easily achievable with Sony. <a href="https://petapixel.com/2018/03/10/5-reasons-switched-back-canon-sony/">Read the full article…..</a></p></blockquote>
<p>As I sit here in Tanzania, I have been surprised by the number of Sony A7 series cameras I have seen on safari. However, the numbers still pale in comparison to the amount of Canon and Nikon gear I’m seeing for this type of photography.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## 9VIII (Mar 12, 2018)

It’s ridiculous that Canon is the only one with touch enabled menus.


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## Talys (Mar 12, 2018)

Color is a very good reason; also, playing with one these last few days, I find that it's harder to adjust the colors to where I want them to be in Lightroom, despite "better dynamic range". The cited "Feel in the Hand" is a big one for me, too. The Sony is weirdly awkward.

Metering is another. All of the metering modes are worse than the Canon ones, so much so that I ended up adjusting metering using the EV +/- dial before every shot.

A half-baked Flash system, lack of AF Illuminator rounds it off, and poor low-light AF round it off. I mean, they have a 2.4GHz wireless flash system.... but the $700 flash (the only full size one) doesn't work with it. What's up with that?

I am also not in love with the tilting LCD. Yes... tilt is more flexible than no tilt, but it's a far cry from 6D2's fully articulating screen; it doesn't even point forward. 

In terms of the menus/buttons... I'm actually ok with those. The whole menu/configuration thing was built by someone who doesn't actually like to take photographs, I think, because out of the box, it's horribly unusable. But with a bunch of configuration and tweaking it isn't bad. However, there is plenty that isn't intuitive.

Like why can't back-button AF also trigger AE?



9VIII said:


> It’s ridiculous that Canon is the only one with touch enabled menus.



Tell me about it. Sony has a touch screen in name only. 

During photo review, there's touch screen that lags like an old dial-up modem. You tap... wait.... wait... oh look, now the image is magnified. You can never tap giant ok/cancel buttons that are big enough to be finger friendly. And you can tap the screen to change the focus point... but not to actually take a picture.

I have no idea what Nikon screens are like now; haven't had a chance to play with a new one.



Canon Rumors said:


> As I sit here in Tanzania, I have been surprised by the number of Sony A7 series cameras I have seen on safari. However, the numbers still pale in comparison to the amount of Canon and Nikon gear I’m seeing for this type of photography.



I see more Sony cameras out there too, at popular wildlife spots. A lot of them are crop cameras with kit lenses, though, not pro bodies.

Anecdotally, I see more new Sony bodies than new Nikon bodies, with Canon dwarfing both, especially when it comes to people with telephoto lenses exceeding 100-400 or 200-500.


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## PavelR (Mar 12, 2018)

I've upgraded 1ds3 + 1d4 to A9 + A7r3 and the desired color for photos I can get in Lightroom with the same amount of work for both systems. (temperature, tint, hue of red, sometimes orange, yellow too)


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## Maximilian (Mar 12, 2018)

Must be a fake article. Nobody would be willing to switch back to Canon, especially not from Sony. 
Sony is the summit of creation. 
  :-X
[/sarc mode]


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## Hflm (Mar 12, 2018)

Talys said:


> Color is a very good reason; also, playing with one these last few days, I find that it's harder to adjust the colors to where I want them to be in Lightroom, despite "better dynamic range". The cited "Feel in the Hand" is a big one for me, too. The Sony is weirdly awkward.


Subjective, I find the A9 with grip to be really ergonomic (We use A9/A7riii and 2 5divs for weddings).



Talys said:


> Metering is another. All of the metering modes are worse than the Canon ones, so much so that I ended up adjusting metering using the EV +/- dial before every shot.


I don't have problems with metering. Why do you?



Talys said:


> A half-baked Flash system, lack of AF Illuminator rounds it off, and poor low-light AF round it off. I mean, they have a 2.4GHz wireless flash system.... but the $700 flash (the only full size one) doesn't work with it. What's up with that?


What do you mean with AF illuminator? AF assist light? I have thet with Godox x1t-s if required. Or do you mean the VF AF point illumination, which is similarly to my 5divs? Low light AF is excellent. In case I use Sony lenses which focus stopped down and need large DOF I simply press a button and Live View Effect is set to off. The lenses then focus wide open, mine at f1.4 where I get -4ev sensitivity. So where is the problem? I didn't have a single problem during last years season. Usually statements like these are made by people not using the cameras.



Talys said:


> I am also not in love with the tilting LCD. Yes... tilt is more flexible than no tilt, but it's a far cry from 6D2's fully articulating screen; it doesn't even point forward.
> 
> In terms of the menus/buttons... I'm actually ok with those. The whole menu/configuration thing was built by someone who doesn't actually like to take photographs, I think, because out of the box, it's horribly unusable. But with a bunch of configuration and tweaking it isn't bad. However, there is plenty that isn't intuitive.


Nonsense, subjective. You can program almost every thing to buttons, you have a personalized menu like with Canon where I put all the other function I need and a quick access menu. After a few gigs you know where to look for.


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## YuengLinger (Mar 12, 2018)

Who is buying the Sony? Seasoned photographers who have been limited by Canon/Nikon? Newer enthusiasts who believe they will be creating more magic with Sony?

If a lot of sales are due to marketing, what is Sony doing right and where are they reaching all these new customers?


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## PavelR (Mar 12, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> Who is buying the Sony? Seasoned photographers who have been limited by Canon/Nikon? Newer enthusiasts who believe they will be creating more magic with Sony?
> 
> If a lot of sales are due to marketing, what is Sony doing right and where are they reaching all these new customers?


I've go to Sony system, because Canon by 1dx and 1dx2 did not offer any new significant features. My reasons were:
* true silent shutter with full AF speed + usable in almost all artificial light (A9)
* histogram / zebra in VF/display (I shoot manually 98% of the time without needing to do a review.)
* Eye AF - I can recompose the image any time and AF is still stitched to eye
* blackout free VF image (is not as useful as it looks, because it displays just shot image during readout in a burst, which is pain with long exposure times)
* IBIS
* 20 fps was pleasant surprise - I did not think that it could be useful
* Nice bonus: full sensor readout 4k (A9)


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## bandido (Mar 12, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> Who is buying the Sony? Seasoned photographers who have been limited by Canon/Nikon? Newer enthusiasts who believe they will be creating more magic with Sony?
> 
> If a lot of sales are due to marketing, what is Sony doing right and where are they reaching all these new customers?



The Marketing Department at Sony certainly knows how to throw a media event: paid hotel rooms in Las Vegas, helicopter rides to the Gran Canyon, dune buggy rides, and professional photo shoot setups; but I think the majority of people switching to Sony are looking for the perfect hybrid-shooter (Full-frame, 4k video, IBIS...) and the latest alpha series of cameras are pretty close to that.


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## KirkD (Mar 12, 2018)

I personally know of several who have switched from Canon to Sony, but none who have switched back. Having said that, I suspect that the Canon-to-Sony switchers are not so much those who use Canon's higher end cameras like the 5D IV or the 1 DX, which have enough of what they want such that they are not looking elsewhere. Mid-range people like me, who shoot with the 6D camera and lower, are more likely to be a wee bit discouraged by the 6D II when they look at the just-announced Sony A7III, which has everything they wish the 6D II had. I would buy a 5D IV except for two reasons ... a) I don't need all the bells and whistles and the $$ attached to them for wildlife and nature photography and b) I'd like something just a bit smaller than even the 6D since I'm packing for days at a time. Up until the A7III was announced, I was not tempted, but unless Canon has a soon-to-be-announced full frame camera with internal image stabilization, 4K, 693 focus points, and an impressive HDR sensor (I shoot a lot in very low light or at night), then the new A7III will be very attractive to a lot of average photographers who use mid-range cameras like the 6D or crop frames like the 7D. I can see high end users switching back to Canon right now, but at the rate Sony is ramping up what it offers, the reverse switchers may become pretty sparse in about 12 months. The big plus for Canon, in my opinion, is its glass.


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## ecqns (Mar 12, 2018)

FWIW (for those who didn't go to the link) the article is comparing a 2016 Sony a6300 ($900) to a Canon 5D MkIV.


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## ecqns (Mar 12, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> Who is buying the Sony? Seasoned photographers who have been limited by Canon/Nikon?
> 
> what is Sony doing right and where are they reaching all these new customers?



I bought into Sony and a lot of others the pro architecture field did too. 

What they did right is provide a few vital features and other smaller ones (that might look like spec sheets fillers to some) that provide a big difference after all for what I do. I also like the rapid product development, things can always be improved and it's nice not having to wait around 5 years like Canon's development pace. If I shot wildlife, weddings or kids running around the backyard - maybe I would shoot something else. Nikon for adventure stuff and Fuji for street work.


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## PavelR (Mar 12, 2018)

ecqns said:


> FWIW (for those who didn't go to the link) the article is comparing a 2016 Sony a6300 ($900) to a Canon 5D MkIV.


Later says that A7RII and A7RIII does the same...


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## ImpaK (Mar 12, 2018)

I used canon system before choose A7RII from sony. Landscape is my point and DR from sony is more useful for my style that make me process faster 3 times than spend time on file from canon body.
I still use it with metabone with all canon len for waiting great DR and no crop 4K on FF canon.
Day by day my dream seem never come true from a little bit upgrade when new camera release. 
My friend from Thailand switch to Sony with the same reason, just me that still keep canon lens. One day i may full move like my friend if canon slow for upgrade their camera feature, i hope canon can learn from D850.


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## CanoKnight (Mar 12, 2018)

There's real panic at Canon over the A7 III and that's why you will see more of these Canon sponsored articles in the coming weeks and months. Their $3500 prosumer full frame pricing model is getting bust.


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## KirkD (Mar 12, 2018)

The original article was comparing a Sony a6300 with his more recently acquired Canon 5D IV ... two radically different cameras, hardly even apples to oranges comparison. Right now, my landscape photography is done with a 6D. Bird photography and videos are done with a Sony a6500, using a Sigma MC-11 adapter. Having used the two of them for almost a year now, I wasn't planning to go either direction until I saw the specs and review for the just announced Sony A7iii full frame. However, if I had a 5D IV, I'd stay with Canon. Canon still has the best glass for the money, but Sigma is producing some extraordinary optics for half of Canon's price (albeit the durability and weather sealing likely does not match Canon's). Furthermore, Sigma has just announced that they will be producing a line of lenses for Sony E mount bodies. I'd really like to see Canon go to in-camera image stabilization for the sake of reducing lens cost and sharpening the images. Lens stabilization does reduce the resolution somewhat. I was hoping to go back to Canon for my videos and telephoto usage but I cannot wait forever and the a6500 is even better in real life than I expected.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 12, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> There's real panic at Canon over the A7 III and that's why you will see more of these Canon sponsored articles in the coming weeks and months. Their $3500 prosumer full frame pricing model is getting bust.



There's real panic at Sony because Canon still totally dominates the FF ILC market, and the A7III seems to be doing nothing to change that situation. That's why you'll see more FF MILC releases from Sony on an even faster pace as they try desperately to make inroads into Canon's market share. 

See, I can make stuff up, too. Well, except for the part about Canon dominating the FF ILC market share, that is fact.


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## scottkinfw (Mar 12, 2018)

PavelR said:


> I've upgraded 1ds3 + 1d4 to A9 + A7r3 and the desired color for photos I can get in Lightroom with the same amount of work for both systems. (temperature, tint, hue of red, sometimes orange, yellow too)


?
Scott


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## scottkinfw (Mar 12, 2018)

Hflm said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Color is a very good reason; also, playing with one these last few days, I find that it's harder to adjust the colors to where I want them to be in Lightroom, despite "better dynamic range". The cited "Feel in the Hand" is a big one for me, too. The Sony is weirdly awkward.
> ...


Ouch, harsh.

Scott


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## scottkinfw (Mar 12, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> Who is buying the Sony? Seasoned photographers who have been limited by Canon/Nikon? Newer enthusiasts who believe they will be creating more magic with Sony?
> 
> If a lot of sales are due to marketing, what is Sony doing right and where are they reaching all these new customers?



I am curious as to what these limitations that are imposed by "Canon/Nikon" that induce seasoned photographers to switch? What am I missing?

Scott


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## peterzuehlke (Mar 12, 2018)

Good article. I have a similar experience, though never "left" Canon. (Been shooting small format with them since FD lenses). Shooting performance mainly with a 6D I got a Sony a6500 to be small and quiet (absolutely quiet) for certain music performances, not so much for math rock mosh pits. My primary camera is a Mark IV Canon and the Sony is my version of a leica M.
I have shot along side a number of Sony shooters (usually A7) and it seems when we are blessed shooting (sarcasm) with LED stage luminaires they always comment about knowing they are going to have trouble getting the color right. As for full frame mirrorless, don't see it, because the camera with lens is at least as large as the DSLR. 
And in low light, the 6D which is not the fastest or greatest at AF runs rings around the Sony half Frame, a6500. No reason to comment on comparing the 5D. The Sony is very accurate, (eye AF yay) but if you are shooting dance, it's like "where'd they go???"


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## Don Haines (Mar 12, 2018)

scottkinfw said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Who is buying the Sony? Seasoned photographers who have been limited by Canon/Nikon? Newer enthusiasts who believe they will be creating more magic with Sony?
> ...



Statistically, it's all noise. You have people switching from one manufacturer to another, but according to what I read somewhere, the vast bulk of people stay with whatever system they started with.

Us forum users are not an accurate reflection on reality. We obsess over things that the average user does not know about or care about, and even among us, it is only a few individuals who "up and jump ship". Forum users with multiple systems are more common, and the vast bulk are quiet. There are 14,343 forum users, and how many have said that they are switching?????


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## Ryananthony (Mar 12, 2018)

Talys said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > It’s ridiculous that Canon is the only one with touch enabled menus.
> ...



The D850 touch menu is perfect to me, No issues. Everything works as expected. I was out yesterday photographing a barn owl, and the majority of people had Nikon. When I left, there was about 10 people. 1 Canon, 1 a7rIII ( who I actually thought may of been you) and the rest Nikon. When I go today, that number may be completely different.


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## mppix (Mar 12, 2018)

The Canon vs. Sony vs. Nikon posts are always amusing. Maybe any OP should add a disclaimer like:
"Any camera system has advantages that may be more or less relevant for my shooting style. Competition improves technology."

Personally, I am less enthusiastic about Sony because they abandoned twice markets where I bought into. Also, their support was a struggle (to be nice about it). IMO the behavior of a consumer company that led them nearly to bankrupcy.
Still, its good if they pick up some market shares as it pushes others to move. However, they are not even beating Canon in the mirrorless segment. This is unfortunate because Canon has only recently committed seriously to mirrorless.

Edit (thx Neuro):
Sony is not beating Canon in the MILC market in Japan. Globally, Sony is the MILC market leader and is substantially ahead of both Canon and Olympus in that segment.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 12, 2018)

mppix said:


> However, they are not even beating Canon in the mirrorless segment. This is unfortunate because Canon has only recently committed seriously to mirrorless.



Sony is not beating Canon in the MILC market *in Japan*. Globally, Sony is the MILC market leader and is _substantially_ ahead of both Canon and Olympus in that segment.


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## Talys (Mar 12, 2018)

Hflm said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Color is a very good reason; also, playing with one these last few days, I find that it's harder to adjust the colors to where I want them to be in Lightroom, despite "better dynamic range". The cited "Feel in the Hand" is a big one for me, too. The Sony is weirdly awkward.
> ...



I agree that it's ergonomically much better with the $300 grip. The grip is also quite heavy, and once on, there is zero weight savings versus DSLR. 

I will point out that adding a grip to an a7r3 adds portrait utility, which is not present in any body other than 1D without adding a grip. And, the grip actually feels quite good in portrait orientation. However, it is an ugly grip and monstrously expensive for adding zero features. 

My fingers still bump against the lens though, and my preference is a slightly deeper grip - a la 80D.



> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > Metering is another. All of the metering modes are worse than the Canon ones, so much so that I ended up adjusting metering using the EV +/- dial before every shot.
> ...



Perhaps it is the subject and environment. I have discussed it extensively in the thread about 100-400L2 vs gmaster. 

The most significant problems are with birds against blue sky. I have tried focus linked spot metering, and even with a perfectly focused bird, exposure is often 1ev under or more. 



> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > A half-baked Flash system, lack of AF Illuminator rounds it off, and poor low-light AF round it off. I mean, they have a 2.4GHz wireless flash system.... but the $700 flash (the only full size one) doesn't work with it. What's up with that?
> ...



I'm talking about the brief pulse of a crosshatched pattern that allows AF to lock. It will work on a DSLR 100% of the time in a pitch black room. It is very useful for off camera flash photography of animals in the evening. For example, illuminated by a fireplace. 

The godox illuminator doesn't work with Sony A7r3. 



> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > I am also not in love with the tilting LCD. Yes... tilt is more flexible than no tilt, but it's a far cry from 6D2's fully articulating screen; it doesn't even point forward.
> ...



Nonsense, neither statement is subjective. The A7R3 and A9 have screens that can tilt up and down, but cannot facw forward. That is a fact. Note that I bought a 6D2 over a 5D4 because this feature is important to me. 

Secondly, the A7r3 provably has fewer buttons. Plus, you can't hit FN and then tap the option on the screen, as you can with Canon Q, which makes the number of buttons that I want even greater. It is true that the Sony is much more configurable in button layout, but the default button layout on a Sony is useful to nobody, while the default layout if the Canon is something that most Canon shooters enjoy. 

I programmed a stupid number of buttons to AF, simply because you can't grab the focus ring and turn it (they're all focus by wire). Even 'direct manual focus' requires that you AF first before the MF works. And, nearly as bad, you cannot program any button to AE + AF other than the shutter - which means you're SOL if you like back button focus and front button shutter. 

And finally, the a9/a7r3 have more buttons, but several like c4 and c3 are awkward to press during shooting. Still you did see that I said I'm ok with Sony menus, right?

Unrelated:

I'm not particularly opposed to mirrorless cameras in general. However, I don't really want a camera that is any smaller than a 6D2, or 80D at the smallest, because of the size of nearly every lens that I want to use. From my point of view, making the camera smaller is a minus, not a plus.

I think that Sony has made great strides with the a7r3, but it still has a long ways to go before it catches ip to DSLR in some important aspects for me. That isn't to say that it doesn't have some valuable features, some specifically requiring mirrorless, that I really appreciate.

I am mindful that other people have different priorities than me, and respect their opinion. I would hope that you could do the same, without looking at every comment as to other people's priorities or preferences as an attack on your preferred platform.


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## transpo1 (Mar 12, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> CanoKnight said:
> 
> 
> > There's real panic at Canon over the A7 III and that's why you will see more of these Canon sponsored articles in the coming weeks and months. Their $3500 prosumer full frame pricing model is getting bust.
> ...



Take a look at the *top 20* U.S. Amazon mirrorless best sellers at the moment and you will not see one Canon camera on there. Not one. For DSLRs, the original 6D is in the top 5 but that is the only Canon FF ILC in that list. 

I'm not going to say there's panic, but that has to concern a few people despite the fact Canon seems to win worldwide. 

(And yes, I know Amazon is not the only dealer.)


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## tmroper (Mar 12, 2018)

9VIII said:


> It’s ridiculous that Canon is the only one with touch enabled menus.



Panasonic has them too--even my cheap $500 Lumix G7. So that's really the ridiculous part, that a $2000 Sony body still doesn't have full touch technology. I mean, even cheap Sony Android phones have had full touch screens for years now! I say it's basically like AF technology--a must for a modern camera.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 12, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Take a look at the U.S. Amazon mirrorless best sellers at the moment and you will not see one Canon camera on there. Not one. For DSLRs, the original 6D is in the top 5 but that is the only Canon FF ILC in that list.



Look harder (or was clicking on the 21-40 link too difficult for you?). The EOS M100 is at #27 on the MILC list. Oh, and for some reason the EOS M50 is listed with the DSLRs (where it’s #72) and not with the MILCs. But hey, who cares about facts. :


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## transpo1 (Mar 12, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Take a look at the U.S. Amazon mirrorless best sellers at the moment and you will not see one Canon camera on there. Not one. For DSLRs, the original 6D is in the top 5 but that is the only Canon FF ILC in that list.
> ...



You're right- I meant to say "in the top 20" when I wrote my statement- which is true- and will modify accordingly. Still VERY concerning. "Canon #27 in MILC." Should I really have to click through to 21-40 to see their imaging dominance?


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## Valvebounce (Mar 12, 2018)

Hi Don. 
From memory, the same five or six over and over and over again. ;D ;D

Cheers, Graham. 



Don Haines said:


> There are 14,343 forum users, and how many have said that they are switching?????


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 12, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > transpo1 said:
> ...



Given that MILCs are generally less popular than dSLRs in the US, I doubt that Canon is or should be terribly concerned. Now, the fact that Canon has topped Sony in the domestic MILC market should have Sony VERY concerned to the point of crapping their collective pants.


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## gmon750 (Mar 13, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> There's real panic at Canon over the A7 III and that's why you will see more of these Canon sponsored articles in the coming weeks and months. Their $3500 prosumer full frame pricing model is getting bust.



Stop making stuff up. There's no "panic".


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## pwp (Mar 13, 2018)

A couple of photographers I know who have switched from Canon to Sony are both increasingly doing commissioned video projects for clients, both now at over 50%, one close to 80%. The transition started in both cases with an A7s, doing things that 1DX's couldn't manage, then further commitment to Sony with FS7 camcorders. Progressively Canon glass on the Sonys was a compromise, so there was a spend on good Sony glass. Then an A7R II just for the hell of it. Hunger for A7R III...

The 1DX's were spending a lot of time on the shelf in the studio...then eBay...transfer to Sony complete. 

FWIW I'm still a Sony free studio and likely to remain so.. My one off-brand digression has been to Panasonic, first a GH4 back in 2014 and now a G9. They're fun, light, modestly priced and much better suited to occasional video projects than my 1DX and 5D4. 

-pw


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## LDS (Mar 13, 2018)

ecqns said:


> I bought into Sony and a lot of others the pro architecture field did too.
> What they did right is provide a few vital features and other smaller ones (that might look like spec sheets fillers to some) that provide a big difference after all for what I do.



For example? And which lenses do you use?


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## BillB (Mar 13, 2018)

gmon750 said:


> CanoKnight said:
> 
> 
> > There's real panic at Canon over the A7 III and that's why you will see more of these Canon sponsored articles in the coming weeks and months. Their $3500 prosumer full frame pricing model is getting bust.
> ...



Of course there is panic, although maybe not at Canon. There is always panic on the internet. That where the clicks come from, and a lot of the posts. Who knows, maybe Chicken Little will finally be right this time.


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## Chaitanya (Mar 13, 2018)

bandido said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Who is buying the Sony? Seasoned photographers who have been limited by Canon/Nikon? Newer enthusiasts who believe they will be creating more magic with Sony?
> ...


you are forgetting about trips to Thailand as well.


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## ecqns (Mar 13, 2018)

LDS said:


> For example? And which lenses do you use?



The big reason for us is the dynamic range by far. It has flat out transformed my on set and post production workflow. Next would be the variety of lenses that could be used. I use all of the Canon TS-Es a Contax shift lens and a Sigma long zoom. The precise and always on live view works great, I don't miss an OVF at all (especially for manual focusing. The tilt screen surprisingly gets used almost on every shot. I love that the metabones has a tripod mount to better balance the heavy TS-Es (which should have a mount on the lens directly). I just shot video for the first time on a job and the s-log color LUT worked great for me in Premiere. That said, I would use the best tool for the job so if Nikon comes out with a shift lens wider than 17mm I would definitely give them a look as they have a 19mm shift now too.


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## Etienne (Mar 13, 2018)

The color science argument is bogus today.
Not long ago a popular photo site (I think it was DPR) posted a color test with photos from Canon, Nikon and Sony. A series of equivalent photos from each camera was presented and users selected their favorite without knowing which camera took the photo.
It was virtually impossible to consistently pick the photo taken by your favorite brand.


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## Etienne (Mar 13, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> CanoKnight said:
> 
> 
> > There's real panic at Canon over the A7 III and that's why you will see more of these Canon sponsored articles in the coming weeks and months. Their $3500 prosumer full frame pricing model is getting bust.
> ...



The perennial "market share" argument has always been bogus. DPR puts it to rest here: https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/0088028249/why-brand-market-share-shouldnt-matter-to-you


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## Etienne (Mar 13, 2018)

gmon750 said:


> CanoKnight said:
> 
> 
> > There's real panic at Canon over the A7 III and that's why you will see more of these Canon sponsored articles in the coming weeks and months. Their $3500 prosumer full frame pricing model is getting bust.
> ...



You could argue that "panic" is too strong a word, but the Canon team would have to be brain dead not to take notice of the A7 III


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 13, 2018)

Etienne said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > CanoKnight said:
> ...



DPR is bogus. 

I will point out (yet again) that I’m not now and never have claimed that more market share means ‘better’ cameras. People should choose the camera system that best meets their needs. It just so happens that more people have chosen Canon ILCs for well over a decade. 

But when someone makes comments such as, “...the massive Canon-to-Sony hemorrhaging that is bordering on avalanche status,” the actual data on market share is a very relevant response.


----------



## BillB (Mar 13, 2018)

Etienne said:


> gmon750 said:
> 
> 
> > CanoKnight said:
> ...



If the Canon team is sitting around waiting to see what Sony comes up with next, then they are in trouble. But I don't think that is the way it works. The key decisions are made years upstream, and play out over time. Did the public announcement of the A7III lead to any significant changes in Canon thinking? Most likely we will never know, but they probably recognized a while ago that Sony might eventually decide that it might make sense to come up with a fullframe camera that could be sold for less than $3000.


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## LDS (Mar 13, 2018)

ecqns said:


> The big reason for us is the dynamic range by far. It has flat out transformed my on set and post production workflow.



Ah, it's the DR matter....


----------



## Talys (Mar 13, 2018)

LDS said:


> ecqns said:
> 
> 
> > The big reason for us is the dynamic range by far. It has flat out transformed my on set and post production workflow.
> ...



I would like to see the sets that have so much dynamic range that the difference between 13 and 14.x is workflow-changing.

I'm not being an ass here; I just can't imagine what it is that's being photographed or videoed and what type of lighting setup there is that where extra DR would change _workflow_.


----------



## ecqns (Mar 13, 2018)

Talys said:


> I would like to see the sets that have so much dynamic range that the difference between 13 and 14.x is workflow-changing.
> I'm not being an ass here; I just can't imagine what it is that's being photographed or videoed and what type of lighting setup there is that where extra DR would change _workflow_.



I'm not going to get into this again and again - I was asked what are the reasons I switched (used Canon digital since 20D until 1Dx2 and 6D) and I answered DR being the #1 reason. In architecture and interiors, not having to over bracket and capture the necessary tones in a scene in even one exposure sometimes is invaluable. If you have to bracket you might get a great person walking through your shot you want to use but it might not be usable if it's in one of your really dark or really light frames. I've even made a mistake recently and way overexposed a shot but I was able to save it no problem (as I was working quickly and I had the LCD set incorrectly in bright sunlight). I do not do HDR or any auto software. If you don't believe me or don't care that's fine, I do what's best for me (and I don't disparage those who use different gear). If Canon somehow beat Sony on Mpix and DR in the future I'd probably go back or wait for Sony's response, but I would miss certain features I mentioned earlier.


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 13, 2018)

ecqns said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to see the sets that have so much dynamic range that the difference between 13 and 14.x is workflow-changing.
> ...



seems you didn't' read the question or comment too well.

a 1DX 2 or 5D Mark IV would hardly require any more bracketing than a top model A7R,etc.

in other words, if you needed to bracket on a 5D Mark IV, odds are you would need to bracket on a A7RIII as well.

having people in the scene is another issue, and to be honest, most photographers will shoot a burst or bracket so they can remove people from the scene. that's a pretty common technique.

So i agree with the comment really, where's the large workflow change from a 5D Mark IV DR to an A7RII or A7RIII workflow?

all of them basically have the same DR. DR complaints are basically a dead issue.

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2,Sony%20ILCE-7RM3


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## ecqns (Mar 13, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> all of them basically have the same DR.
> 
> http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2,Sony%20ILCE-7RM3



Not in the 1Dx2s I used. But for my purposes the extra pixels are just as important too, so the 5Ds is a better camera to compare to. Sometimes I need to make a big image transformation and crop out a lot of image. I went to Sony just after the 5Ds was announced.


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 13, 2018)

ecqns said:


> Not in the 1Dx2s I used. But for my purposes the extra pixels are just as important too, so the 5Ds is a better camera to compare to. Sometimes I need to make a big image transformation and crop out a lot of image. I went to Sony just after the 5Ds was announced.



so now you're changing the goalposts.


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 13, 2018)

Etienne said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > CanoKnight said:
> ...



dpreview didn't.

Since when is dpreview the defacto commentary on all things camera related?

their comments and assumption that canon is a market leader simply because of inertia is a commentary not based upon any factual statement other than their own opinion.

marketshare is certainly a valid response to the hysteria and fake commentary about panic, people leaving in droves,etc.

it's only bogus if you want to project a narrative based upon little information outside of your own desires.


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 13, 2018)

BillB said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > gmon750 said:
> ...



the A7 was always priced around $2000. why is the A7 III any different?


----------



## ecqns (Mar 13, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> so now you're changing the goalposts.



What do you mean? 40-50 mpix vs 30 is a big difference. Playing around with that chart shows that the 5Ds is almost 2 stops worst and the 5D4 is about one stop worst than the a7r3.


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## Talys (Mar 13, 2018)

@ecqns - 

There is nothing wrong with preferring a Sony. I'm happy that you like your camera and that it works for you. 

When you say _set_, _post-production_, and _workflow_, that sure sounded like an artificial scene to me, where you control lighting and direction, whether it's for photography or video. 

That said, I'm totally with rrcphoto, and while there were some great features on the A7R3, I was thoroughly unimpressed with the vaunted dynamic range. You couldn't crush overexposed whites even a tiny bit more, and the ability to lift shadows compared to any Canon full frame camera is, at best, dubious. More accurately, it was _different_ meaning that some colors and types of shadows recovered better, while others worse. I find the recovered shadows on Sony at even medium ISOs (up to 1000) to have unpleasing grain, and unpleasing color saturation, but this is simply my preference and opinion. I posted some eagle shots of Canon vs Sony in another thread to highlight what I mean.

But at the end of the day, every poorly exposed photo was still a poorly exposed photo.



ecqns said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > so now you're changing the goalposts.
> ...



The biggest difference between 42 megapixels and 30 megapixels is somewhat bigger files. In practice, you are always much better served by using the right focal length or moving than you are to cropping more deeply.

I'm not saying that most of us don't prefer more megapixels to less. But very rarely does anyone ever finish with work anywhere near 30 megapixels.


----------



## rrcphoto (Mar 13, 2018)

ecqns said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > so now you're changing the goalposts.
> ...



it's .8 EV.

if you can't get it on a 5D Mark IV in one exposure, you're not going to on a A7RIII.

also a A7RIII will be more heavily influenced on DR by how long you use the camera because it's a mirrorless camera, and the warmer the sensor the less DR it will have.


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## ecqns (Mar 13, 2018)

Talys said:


> The biggest difference between 42 megapixels and 30 megapixels is somewhat bigger files. In practice, you are always much better served by using the right focal length or moving than you are to cropping more deeply.



Well of course but in real life situations, you don't always have that luxury. Like shooting a building from across a narrow street - if I can't get it on a ladder with the 17mm TS-E either in one shot or stitched I have to use the 11-24 and point the camera up, transform and crop (which I hate doing). So in those situations I would lose about half my file. And I can get so much highlight recovery, besides spectral highlights which are fine blowing out. Maybe I'll post an example sometime. About shadow recovery, I only shoot up to 400 ISO.


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## Talys (Mar 13, 2018)

ecqns said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > The biggest difference between 42 megapixels and 30 megapixels is somewhat bigger files. In practice, you are always much better served by using the right focal length or moving than you are to cropping more deeply.
> ...



I agree with you about not having the luxury -- or ability -- to get closer in (which is what we're talking about, right?). It happens.

Having used an A7R3, 5DIV, and 6D2, though, the difference was surprisingly small to me. 

I genuinely expected to be able to crop more out of a picture, for bird photography. Is there a difference? Yes, a tiny bit. But it's really tiny. A bird that takes up 1/8 of the frame will still not be good enough to keep. A bird that takes up 1/3 of the frame will be a great shot either way. Somewhere in between, there are some photos on the A7R3 that will crop out a little nicer, but at some point with photography, I went to just wanting more photos, to wanting _better_ photos, and all those "a little nicer" scenarios are ultimately photos that make the first cull but get discarded because they really aren't good enough to share with anyone else.

Highlight recovery between the 5D4 and the A7R3 are practically exactly the same, which is to say, very little. You can't even get 2 stops out of either. Shadow recovery on from the Sony is a little more. There was that video that demonstrated it to be 1 stop more. It could well be that this is measurably the case. However, in practice, I find that it's a little _different_, as the colors on recovered shadows on Canon look different than the recovered shadows on Sony.

In some cases I like Canon better, and in other cases, Sony. But ultimately, there are zero photos that are amazing photos in my collection where I've had to recover 3 or 4 stops of shadows. Sure, sometimes a little more definition or color in the shadows improves the photo, _but never by 3+ stops_. Usually, the reason I need to recover some shadows is because I've increased contrast, where I've lost some of those shadows.


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## ecqns (Mar 13, 2018)

Talys said:


> Highlight recovery between the 5D4 and the A7R3 are practically exactly the same, which is to say, very little. You can't even get 2 stops out of either. Shadow recovery on from the Sony is a little more. There was that video that demonstrated it to be 1 stop more. It could well be that this is measurably the case. However, in practice, I find that it's a little _different_, as the colors on recovered shadows on Canon look different than the recovered shadows on Sony.



Here's an example of a terrible exposure being corrected to save a photo. Here I went with a -0.7 exposure and +53 in highlights in Capture One with the a7r2. I'd say that's a pretty decent recovery job:


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## Talys (Mar 13, 2018)

ecqns said:


> Here's an example of a terrible exposure being corrected to save a photo. Here I went with a -0.7 exposure and +53 in highlights in Capture One with the a7r2. I'd say that's a pretty decent recovery job:



Cool photo. I don't think you'd have a problem with that with a 5D4, either, though. I mean, it's clearly overexposed, but not so horribly so that everything is just blown out white. 

As an aside, using the A7R3 at the moment, one of my complaints is that I don't trust its metering, though often it's a problem of under rather than over exposure (which is a lot more correctible). I think Canon's evaluative metering or Nikon's matrix metering is just better. On the other hand, I have learned to trust that WYSIWYG viewfinder and use the thumb dial to manually adjust a lot of photos.


----------



## Hflm (Mar 13, 2018)

Talys said:


> @ecqns -
> 
> There is nothing wrong with preferring a Sony. I'm happy that you like your camera and that it works for you.
> 
> ...


In my personal use I see a clear advantage in the Sony files, which grows even more when downsizing to 30MP, giving me extra headroom in using NR if necessary. Although the PDR measures only 0.8ev less at base ISO, the biggest advantage for me is that after the first gain change (iso640) the A7riii is practically isoless until iso25600. At events I can protect highlights by underexposing deliberately with no penalty of whether I use a higher iso directly or push in post. Not so with my 5div. Photonstophotos shows that nicely in their PDR shadow improvement vs. iso settings measurements.

But the 5div performance regarding dr and iso is at a level, where it is usable for the huge majority of things you throw it at. A great camera. I like the 5divs. But I like the A9 and A7riii more, to be honest. That could change with the new Canon FF mirrorless which I certainly will buy to replace the 5divs, since I mostly use DPAF anyway to avoid AF fine tuning issues in different lighting conditions, at different distances or when using my lenses wide open when not using the center focus point. With the A9/A7riii I hardly have a single misfocused image after a wedding day at all.


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## tnargs (Mar 14, 2018)

9VIII said:


> It’s ridiculous that Canon is the only one with touch enabled menus.


What are you talking about? My wife's 2011 Panasonic G3 has full touch-screen menu control, and it wasn't the first Panasonic to do so.

How good were Canon's touch-screen menus in 2011?


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## martti (Mar 14, 2018)

*Re: Article: The story of a broken Zony Zoom.*

Canon service –especially the ones I have used in Sweden and Finland– have been prompt, professional and reasonable.


But what if you have a broken Zeiss Sony Zoom that would not focus in those countries.
There is nobody in Helsinki with an access to the machine to calibrate the lens.
In Malmö there is the service center with the facilities. My son does business with them so he knows the guys.
So, the camera was sent to Malmö and got back with a 28o euro bill.
Does it focus?
No, if the subject is too far.
It will go back to the shop and maybe before midsummer it will focus. 
Kan hända, jodå, det är helt möjligt, as they said in Swedish.


I really wanted to continue my relation with Sony cameras but it was not meant to be.
I have a very short temper with equipment that starts acting up on me...
Canon takes pictures. That's why I bought yet another one. 
The buttons also are where they should be...


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## Talys (Mar 14, 2018)

*Re: Article: The story of a broken Zony Zoom.*



martti said:


> The buttons also are where they should be...



It sounds so stupid, since you have a zillion freaking programmable buttons on Sony, but this is so true. 

Others will feel differently, I'm sure, but it's impossible to program the Sony buttons to a configuration which I actually prefer to Canon. One reason is that the number of buttons accessible by the right index finger is too small (only C1 and C2). 

Another related issue: the Canon Shutter release is much better than Sony. One thing that birders learn to do is to gently roll the finger over the shutter button instead of jabbing it down, in order to avoid torqueing the whole camera when you have a big lens on the end. Sounds dumb, but it makes a difference. But you can't do that with a Sony, because there's too deep of a ridge in the ring around the shutter.

Also, why must the Sony shutter finger dial feel so cheap?  It is particularly strange, because the same dial on the grip feels much more premium. But neither roll and click with as nice a feel as even the cheapest of Canon DSLRs.


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## 9VIII (Mar 14, 2018)

tnargs said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > It’s ridiculous that Canon is the only one with touch enabled menus.
> ...



Good for Panasonic, now where do I get a Full Frame body from them?

The fact that Panasonic (and I’ve heard good things about Olympus) can do such a good job while not being anywhere close to a market leader just makes the condition of Sony’s menus that much more embarrassing.


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## Talys (Mar 14, 2018)

9VIII said:


> Good for Panasonic, now where do I get a Full Frame body from them?



It's only for Canon that innovation requires full frame mirrorless. For every other company, any mirrorless will do.

It's a moving goalpost, after all. Before, it was always canon's lack of cheap 4k; now it's the lack of FF MILC. Next, it will be a cheap FF MILC. Then it will be no dual slots. And on and on.

To those people, I say... buy what you like, be happy with it, and if it makes you happy, go buy a new camera every year for the next thing that you have to have in order to take good photos.


----------



## martti (Mar 14, 2018)

9VIII said:


> tnargs said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...




Well, I really like taking pictures.
I am sure there are cameras that could give me the Ultimate Picture Taking Experience.
I am pretty sure that there is a reason why cats and some people are crazy for Red dots, like the ones on the Leicas.
My experience with Lumix-3 was very positive. The pictures were so beautiful.
I see my friend doing absolutely delicious videos on his Olympus gear.
My son is using my A6000, doing fine, my ex is using the pocket Sony whatever the name or number and she is happy without me, with her camera.
So good!
Right before the EOS series was introduced, I had a Nikon F3 with a 35mm f/1.4. the best film camera ever.
So I was committed to Canon. If not...who knows.
My experience with Nikon was very positive and if I did not have a hermetic Pelican case full of Canon EF/EOS gear, I'd probably be shooting with a D850. 
We can only live one life at a time.
And we can only take pictures with the camera that we have available, buttons or not. 
By the end of this year I will probably get a 5D4. 
I so like having the choice of using the 24-70 f/2.8 v.II or the old 35mm f/1.4 for evening events.
Or the worn-out 70-210 or the old 85mm f/1.2 to take portraits of people I like'n love.
It is not rational. Humans are not rational!


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## ecqns (Mar 14, 2018)

Talys said:


> don't think you'd have a problem with that with a 5D4, either, though. I mean, it's clearly overexposed, but not so horribly so that everything is just blown out white.
> 
> As an aside, using the A7R3 at the moment, one of my complaints is that I don't trust its metering, though often it's a problem of under rather than over exposure (which is a lot more correctible). I think Canon's evaluative metering or Nikon's matrix metering is just better. On the other hand, I have learned to trust that WYSIWYG viewfinder and use the thumb dial to manually adjust a lot of photos.



I don't know about that - having the extra stop of DR (especially at the high end) plus the 12 extra MPX makes a huge difference for me. In this shot I didn't have to transform and crop but it happens quite often on tight building portraits. If I had the 5Ds, I would have had the pixels but not the necessary DR, the 5Dmk4 I'd be almost there (people here say) in DR but not close in pixels. So I am comfortable saying that the Sony is by far the best tool for my job.

Then in this case, I had my 5 section Gitzo at almost full extension and I was on a step ladder. I was using the flip out screen so I could view the image from below and it was essential in this situation. The problem was I didn't have the lcd set to daylight viewing so it was overexposed, I was working quickly and by myself in this case. But the viewfinder is always spot on for me.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Mar 14, 2018)

ecqns said:


> The problem was I didn't have the lcd set to daylight viewing so it was overexposed



Is there a histogram display?


----------



## ecqns (Mar 14, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> ecqns said:
> 
> 
> > The problem was I didn't have the lcd set to daylight viewing so it was overexposed
> ...



Yes of course, but not sure if I had it on. Plus the camera was quite a bit over my head and I was using the remote to fire.
To tell you the truth, I never had that happen before so I didn't really know there was a daylight setting! I'm usually much closer to the camera or ideally tethered into Capture One.


----------



## LDS (Mar 14, 2018)

ecqns said:


> Yes of course, but not sure if I had it on. Plus the camera was quite a bit over my head and I was using the remote to fire.



That's why for architecture I still prefer an handheld spot meter, especially with TS lenses... I never trust the viewfinder nor the histogram (which may not be computed on the RAW data). But probably I'm old school as I still like to expose correctly instead of correcting in post...


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## ecqns (Mar 14, 2018)

LDS said:


> That's why for architecture I still prefer an handheld spot meter, especially with TS lenses... I never trust the viewfinder nor the histogram (which may not be computed on the RAW data). But probably I'm old school as I still like to expose correctly instead of correcting in post...



I started shooting architecture on 4x5 film so I know my way around a meter but haven't needed one in quite some time. The mirrorless viewfinder is very accurate for me. I trust you are accommodating for your lens shift on the spot meter?


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## LDS (Mar 15, 2018)

ecqns said:


> I trust you are accommodating for your lens shift on the spot meter?



It depends. It's a vignetting effect, not an overall dimming (at least with my Canon TS-E lenses). So I need to judge where it falls, and what it means for a given subject. The external meter is not deceived as the internal one could, so it's a matter of deciding which correction may be needed. My tests showed that with moderate shifting it is usually close to 0.5 stops (something more at affected edges), so most of the times can be ignored. With more tilt or shift, I'll need to take into account a correction for readings in the affected areas - dialing in a correction in the meter is not IMHO useful - I use it for filters like a PL or ND ones.


----------



## Quirkz (Mar 15, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > You're right- I meant to say "in the top 20" when I wrote my statement- which is true- and will modify accordingly. Still VERY concerning. "Canon #27 in MILC." Should I really have to click through to 21-40 to see their imaging dominance?
> ...



Also of interest is the fact that just looking at mirrorless charts or dslr charts is very misleading. They don’t include bundles. Check out the combined interchangeable lens charts and you can see that the canon t6 in kit or bundle form makes up HALF of the top 10 list. ( position 1, 3, 4, 7, 10 ). One single camera model from canon (maybe) outstrips everything else combined.

Canon still dominates. Though I am pleased to see the healthy competition in mirrorless and full frame.


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## KevinP (Mar 16, 2018)

Lots of leanings on display. I'm in the bargain shopper camp, under $1k for a body. That and a couple lenses are keeping me with Canon. Speed of AF is still in DSLR favor in the low-cost range. IBIS seems 2-4 years out for my price range. Eye AF is arriving in M50 and probably 90D, but a refurb 77D or 80D on sale for $600 seem like a better deal than waiting for a $1200+ new model, given my goals. 

Canon's DPAF speed seems like a clear priority so they can go head to head with Sony as they make more mirrorless models. The dual card slot was really a sharp move by Sony, penalizing Canon for withholding a $25 feature to push event photographers $1300 higher on the product line. 

I wonder what portion of brand preferences are driven by ergonomics. A full frame smaller and lighter than 80D is a large part of my Sony crush. There seems to be a big loyalty to the large camera body though. That size may be an important part of why Canon has been a leader. A friend pointed out that Beats by Dre has pot-metal ballast to make them feel more substantial. Fun to window shop, but back to the budget section this year.


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## 9VIII (Mar 16, 2018)

KevinP said:


> ...A full frame smaller and lighter than 80D is a large part of my Sony crush...



How long have we been hearing this now?
Put a Full Frame sensor in the SL2 Body, with or without the Mirror, it would sell very well.

My perfect camera would be an SL2, with all the extra controls and autofocus off the 7D2, and the 5DSR sensor.
I guess making a 35mm SLR that compact would still be a big challenge.

Really I still want it to be an SLR. I took a hike with my Fuji X-E2 today, people say that putting it to “EVF Only” is great for battery savings and almost as good as an SLR... Well it would be if the eyepiece sensor weren’t resting on my body the entire time that I’m walking and not taking pictures. I guess I could try moving the camera strap to only attach on one side (theoretically allowing it to stay rotated away), but right now it doesn’t look like there’s any way to consistenly get around the need to turn the camera off when you’re not actively shooting.


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## Random Orbits (Mar 16, 2018)

KevinP said:


> Lots of leanings on display. I'm in the bargain shopper camp, under $1k for a body. That and a couple lenses are keeping me with Canon. Speed of AF is still in DSLR favor in the low-cost range. IBIS seems 2-4 years out for my price range. Eye AF is arriving in M50 and probably 90D, but a refurb 77D or 80D on sale for $600 seem like a better deal than waiting for a $1200+ new model, given my goals.
> 
> Canon's DPAF speed seems like a clear priority so they can go head to head with Sony as they make more mirrorless models. The dual card slot was really a sharp move by Sony, penalizing Canon for withholding a $25 feature to push event photographers $1300 higher on the product line.
> 
> I wonder what portion of brand preferences are driven by ergonomics. A full frame smaller and lighter than 80D is a large part of my Sony crush. There seems to be a big loyalty to the large camera body though. That size may be an important part of why Canon has been a leader. A friend pointed out that Beats by Dre has pot-metal ballast to make them feel more substantial. Fun to window shop, but back to the budget section this year.



Having a consistent UI is nice if you hand off the camera to someone else often. Then you don't have to explain to people which button is for back-button focus, etc. and they don't have to go mucking around in the menus as much because the controls are as labeled. 

Sony should just assign the programmable buttons to the most used programmed setting (poll) and leave it as a default.


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## Talys (Mar 16, 2018)

Random Orbits said:


> Having a consistent UI is nice if you hand off the camera to someone else often. Then you don't have to explain to people which button is for back-button focus, etc. and they don't have to go mucking around in the menus as much because the controls are as labeled.
> 
> Sony should just assign the programmable buttons to the most used programmed setting (poll) and leave it as a default.



The Sony default button scheme is crazy, obscuring some of the best features and assigning unimportant features to a small number of custom buttons that are in the most accessible areas. So yeah, I agree on reassigning the defaults for sure.

On the other hand, it's also a camera that is attractive to a pretty diverse group of people. So, whether you want it to be a landscapes camera or a video rig or something for portraiture is gong to really change how it's configured. An intelligent way for them to do it would be to have presets for landscapes, wildlife, video, portraiture, etc.

The other thing is, there are like, 50 menu options that you have to set if you want your camera to work well. Some of the default menu option choices are baffling to me.

Every time I've seen an A7/A9 demoed, a customer seems confused about something that works in an awkward way, and the salesperson tells them, well, they can reprogram that when they first configure the camera.


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## Calaverasgrande (Jun 12, 2018)

I'm not a huge brand loyalist. However I do really enjoy the Canon system. Having worked my way up from a T2i and kit lens to a 6D and a couple L lenses. 
My sister who is a jewelry artist wants to get into doing her own product photography. Part of me really want's to recommend a Canon DSLR. For no other reason than I'd have an easier time showing her how to use it. And be better able to answer the inevitable frantic text messages if we both had similar cameras. 
But there are all these nice Sony cameras, and the newer M4/3rd cameras from Fuji, Olympus etc are pretty damn capable. (though I'm still not buying the 50mp from a 16mp sensor using IBIS).

The Canon glass is for the most part still just as great. But the development of their cameras is lagging. Not just in the sensor and DR area. The way that the camera body is laid out harkens back to the 80's. 
In fact, show a current DSLR to a millennial and they are likely to assume it's some grandpa's film camera. 
The LCD display on the top, with it's weak illumination lamp hammers this home. 
For Canon to expand it's base of users it needs to make a camera that isn't just more resolution. But more modern. The Sony A7 series just looks more like a thing that is made now (as does the new Hassleblad).


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## slclick (Jun 12, 2018)

I had my first opportunity to use a friends a6300 and found so many reasons why I love my Canons. First off was the lcd screen as I had to be in optimal light to see the image. The button/dial layout was awkward to me and the menu system was while not a Nikon like makes no sense, it easily could have been much simpler. Definitely not intuitive. The VF was brighter than my M5 and the focus points were great but thats all I could see as a benefit.Not so big on the colors either, both indoors and out. I only used one low end lens and would like more time with adapted and better glass.


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## Orangutan (Jun 13, 2018)

Calaverasgrande said:


> My sister who is a jewelry artist wants to get into doing her own product photography. Part of me really want's to recommend a Canon DSLR. For no other reason than I'd have an easier time showing her how to use it. And be better able to answer the inevitable frantic text messages if we both had similar cameras.
> But there are all these nice Sony cameras, and the newer M4/3rd cameras from Fuji, Olympus etc are pretty damn capable. (though I'm still not buying the 50mp from a 16mp sensor using IBIS).



While I'm no expert, I do want to offer an observation as you consider what to recommend to your sister. In the last few years, the main sensor differences are MP, high-ISO, and high-DR. For jewelry shots, your sister will have 100% control of the environment: she'll shoot on-tripod under controlled lighting, so ISO and DR sensor improvements are worthless. As others on the forum have written before, jewelry photography is more about skill than gear until you get to the point of using a TS lens. My advice to you for your sister: buy a used/refurb body and lens, a basic/inexpensive set of continuous lighting, and a color card. Then be prepared to spend many hours on the Internet reading-up on technique, and then more hours practicing. As her skill develops she'll figure out what upgraded gear she needs.


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## Valvebounce (Jun 13, 2018)

Hi Orangutan. 
I seem to recall product photography was discussed in great detail, with a very good argument being made on why to get a pro to do it for you (or at least someone who understands photography and lighting, like a brother!) if you want to actually sell the product, nothing hinders sales more than a poor photo! 

Cheers, Graham. 



Orangutan said:


> Calaverasgrande said:
> 
> 
> > My sister who is a jewelry artist wants to get into doing her own product photography. Part of me really want's to recommend a Canon DSLR. For no other reason than I'd have an easier time showing her how to use it. And be better able to answer the inevitable frantic text messages if we both had similar cameras.
> ...


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## Orangutan (Jun 13, 2018)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi Orangutan.
> I seem to recall product photography was discussed in great detail, with a very good argument being made on why to get a pro to do it for you (or at least someone who understands photography and lighting, like a brother!) if you want to actually sell the product, nothing hinders sales more than a poor photo!
> 
> Cheers, Graham.


Yes, but "pros" have to start somewhere. It may be foolish to rely on your own product photography without the skills, but if she's looking to build skills, she might as well practice on her own product. I would hope that a working jewelry artist would be able to tell if her early photo work was crap.


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## Talys (Jun 13, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Orangutan.
> ...



I am absolutely with Orangutan. 

The key to "doing it yourself" is to not accept a photograph that isn't as good as what a professional charging you top dollar would produce. To get there, all you need is some lighting, a roll of paper and time to learn -- and some good reading on lighting is helpful too.

If you have the will to generate good photographs, whether it's textiles or jewelry or automobiles, the subject isn't going anywhere, so given enough time, you can figure it out -- and then it will be a lot easier the next time. Product photography also has the benefit to allowing those who are learning to (generally) use continuous lights instead of strobes/flashes for difficult shots -- and then move to strobes and fancier modifiers later on. This is especially true of items like gemstones that reflect and refract light in all sorts of interesting ways.

The real argument against doing it yourself is that all the photography and lighting equipment, and in some cases, the space (if your subject is larger) is much more expensive than just having someone who does it for a living take care of it for you. But then again, if it's your hobby, there is satisfaction to being able to produce it yourself!

And if all else fails, and you don't like your photos, you can hire someone to do it on location, observe what they do, and figure out what you did wrong


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## Valvebounce (Jun 13, 2018)

Hi Folks. 
Please don’t get me wrong, we all start out somewhere, my thought is that learning (and investing a sizeable chunk of cash in) a new skill might not be the best way to sell items for your main income? 
I completely get the ‘I can do this’ attitude, there are a good many things around here that I have done with the ‘if they can do it so can I attitude.’
However, ‘I can build a gearbox and overdrive’ doesn’t seem to have given me much preparation for ‘I can skim and paint this bedroom wall!’ Apparently there are tricks of the trade I don’t know or the original (purple) paint on the wall wouldn’t be blistering under the new emulsion paint! ;D 
Apparently not everything can be done by everybody, but my outlay is under £100 to discover I can’t do this well! 

Cheers, Graham. 



Talys said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Valvebounce said:
> ...


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