# Here’s a vague Canon roadmap for 2019 [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 19, 2019)

> A very vague roadmap for Canon’s 2019 came to us over the weekend. It seems like the same sort of vague roadmap that happens at internal marketing and sales meetings. Take all of this with a grain of salt.
> We’re told to expect an “exciting” new cinema camera, possible ahead of NAB in April. However, the announcement date isn’t confirmed as of yet. There has been some talk about a follow-up to the Cinema EOS C300 Mark II. We’ve heard that there could possibly be an 8K “upgrade option” for such a camera. However, that is unconfirmed at this time.
> Canon will likely announce PL...



Continue reading...


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## criscokkat (Feb 19, 2019)

I can't imagine that the first pro body in the R system will be anything like a 1dx. A 5ds replacement is much more likely, and tracking speed / fps is much less critical there as good quality pictures.

They have to get a 10 fold increase in speed on the processing power with Digic 9 to even make a run at a A9 like tracking system, or have some major major increases with the algorithms used.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Feb 19, 2019)

so I think this year will be a glass buying year for me then. A 70-200 F 2.8 is still on the wishlist


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 19, 2019)

Hi-res and high-DR body please, juicy sensor for not overcooked images, couple of long lenses for a dessert and a grain of salt, thanks.


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## Punio (Feb 19, 2019)

Canon surely must announce and release a pro camera in Q3/Q4. I highly doubt the actual release of all those new RF lenses would be in a market where you only have the R and RP to choose from...


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## sdz (Feb 19, 2019)

It would help Canon to have the IDx replacement before the Olympics. Nonetheless, the 5D replacement seems the best bet for being first to market.


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## NetMage (Feb 19, 2019)

I would like to see the 7D Mark III with improved sensor / DR and less sports focus, more all around best APS-C.


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## Architect1776 (Feb 19, 2019)

NetMage said:


> I would like to see the 7D Mark III with improved sensor / DR and less sports focus, more all around best APS-C.



I do see a need for a mirrorless APSc with a powerhouse set of features and quality to overshadow the D500. 
If canon is truly serious about Mirrorless then quit fooling around with DSLRs (Unless they can't get it right) and jump all the way in with the R cameras.
They have shown some impressive glass developments in the RF mount so now it is time to create completely dominating cameras to go with them like they did with the EOS1 when it came out 2 years after the introduction of the EOS system.


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## amorse (Feb 19, 2019)

It seems a bit early for the 1Dx iii to be the upcoming pro DSLR - that would be a year earlier than expected to align with past releases, and to align with olympics. 

I'm really curious as to what that pro body is - no doubt the longest in the tooth is the 7D, but part of me wonders if there's a shakeup coming to full frame DSLRs too. Part of me wonders if the high-resolution sensor headed for the pro-R camera coming won't turn up in this pro DSLR coming too. Nah, probably wishful thinking.


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## MaxDiesel (Feb 19, 2019)

I’d like to see a C100/C200 styled camera with an RF mount. 
This would seal my move to canons new system.


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## Chaitanya (Feb 19, 2019)

NetMage said:


> I would like to see the 7D Mark III with improved sensor / DR and less sports focus, more all around best APS-C.


Also a super deep buffer with CFexpress format support.


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## bbb34 (Feb 19, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> If canon is truly serious about Mirrorless then quit fooling around with DSLRs (Unless they can't get it right) and jump all the way in with the R cameras.



Offering a choice does not mean fooling around. Canon tries to maximize profit. Buyers are looking for what serves them best - individually. There is no camera that serves everybody.


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## NetMage (Feb 19, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> I do see a need for a mirrorless APSc with a powerhouse set of features and quality to overshadow the D500.
> If canon is truly serious about Mirrorless then quit fooling around with DSLRs (Unless they can't get it right) and jump all the way in with the R cameras.
> They have shown some impressive glass developments in the RF mount so now it is time to create completely dominating cameras to go with them like they did with the EOS1 when it came out 2 years after the introduction of the EOS system.


I don’t think mirrorless is ready or capable of competing with PDAF for sports or other high speed photography and hope for a DSLR in the next 7D.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 19, 2019)

I'm going to be really unhappy if after over a year of waiting since the release of the lukewarm EOS R that Canon finally comes up with a "pro" DSLR and it's got all the controls/features you want, but with some crazy 100MP sensor.

Crazy-high megapixel cameras are a special use case. I want a true successor to a 5D4 or IDXII sensor... Modest megapixels and great high ISO performance. Nobody needs 100MP.* Plenty of people need better low light performance.





*Yes, I know, you're the one person that really _needs_ 100MP, even though you probably really don't.


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## Philrp (Feb 19, 2019)

I'll take a shot at this too, based solely on the premise that Canon likes sales.

1- A new 7d/80d mashup is in the works. Those sell really well and likely have higher margins than Rebels
2- Canon has a ton of speciality sensor tech that they are sitting on, and a hight resolution EOS R would make sense. The 5DS has a great many fans.
3- Announcement in late 2019 of a new flagship for early 2020.


Now i wait....


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## BeenThere (Feb 19, 2019)

NetMage said:


> I would like to see the 7D Mark III with improved sensor / DR and less sports focus, more all around best APS-C.


This is not the niche of the 7D series. You are looking for an 80D replacement which probably isn’t coming. 7D is a high frame rate sports/action camera.


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## GMCPhotographics (Feb 19, 2019)

Philrp said:


> I'll take a shot at this too, based solely on the premise that Canon likes sales.
> 
> 1- A new 7d/80d mashup is in the works. Those sell really well and likely have higher margins than Rebels
> 2- Canon has a ton of speciality sensor tech that they are sitting on, and a hight resolution EOS R would make sense. The 5DS has a great many fans.
> ...



Yes, removing the mirror box and associated split mirror AF system and moving to a Software based AF system...the Rf system is a lot less mechanically complex.


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## Joules (Feb 19, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Hi-res and high-DR body please, juicy sensor for not overcooked images, couple of long lenses for a dessert and a grain of salt, thanks.


This being a Canon Camera, I don't think you have to worry about salt. There will be plenty, as usual ;D


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 19, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I'm going to be really unhappy if after over a year of waiting since the release of the lukewarm EOS R that Canon finally comes up with a "pro" DSLR and it's got all the controls/features you want, but with some crazy 100MP sensor.
> 
> Crazy-high megapixel cameras are a special use case. I want a true successor to a 5D4 or IDXII sensor... Modest megapixels and great high ISO performance. Nobody needs 100MP.* Plenty of people need better low light performance.
> 
> ...



Me too. 40 mpx or more is a hard pass for me. I'm probably going to swtich.

I think it make sense. Canon has high mpx sensor for some time now, but building a sport high FPS with good AF DPAF might be more of a challenge for them.


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## kaptainkatsu (Feb 19, 2019)

Here is my prediction. 1DX3 in spring of 2020 for the Olympics. 1D equivalent in beta test for olympics to tweak software for fall 2020 release.

I have a 1DX2 and I can see room for some improvement which I think Canon will do for the 1DX3. USB-C, 4K 10bit output via HDMI, bump to 22-24mp (likely 24 since the a9 is 24), clog. I would love to see built in wifi but I do know the reasons why its on a separate dongle. Would also love to see both slots to be the same card. I don't really see a need for more FPS but its always an arms race so I would probably expect a 2fps increase. I just don't see Canon having the tech to put all of this in a mirrorless camera just yet unless they have an ace up their sleeve.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 19, 2019)

kaptainkatsu said:


> Here is my prediction. 1DX3 in spring of 2020 for the Olympics. 1D equivalent in beta test for olympics to tweak software for fall 2020 release.
> 
> I have a 1DX2 and I can see room for some improvement which I think Canon will do for the 1DX3. USB-C, 4K 10bit output via HDMI, bump to 22-24mp (likely 24 since the a9 is 24), clog. I would love to see built in wifi but I do know the reasons why its on a separate dongle. Would also love to see both slots to be the same card. I don't really see a need for more FPS but its always an arms race so I would probably expect a 2fps increase. I just don't see Canon having the tech to put all of this in a mirrorless camera just yet unless they have an ace up their sleeve.



What about a 5D IV replacement? When do you expect that and what kind of feature?


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## Sanjeer007 (Feb 19, 2019)

kaptainkatsu said:


> Here is my prediction. 1DX3 in spring of 2020 for the Olympics. 1D equivalent in beta test for olympics to tweak software for fall 2020 release.
> 
> I have a 1DX2 and I can see room for some improvement which I think Canon will do for the 1DX3. USB-C, 4K 10bit output via HDMI, bump to 22-24mp (likely 24 since the a9 is 24), clog. I would love to see built in wifi but I do know the reasons why its on a separate dongle. Would also love to see both slots to be the same card. I don't really see a need for more FPS but its always an arms race so I would probably expect a 2fps increase. I just don't see Canon having the tech to put all of this in a mirrorless camera just yet unless they have an ace up their sleeve.


Sir,What about


kaptainkatsu said:


> Here is my prediction. 1DX3 in spring of 2020 for the Olympics. 1D equivalent in beta test for olympics to tweak software for fall 2020 release.
> 
> I have a 1DX2 and I can see room for some improvement which I think Canon will do for the 1DX3. USB-C, 4K 10bit output via HDMI, bump to 22-24mp (likely 24 since the a9 is 24), clog. I would love to see built in wifi but I do know the reasons why its on a separate dongle. Would also love to see both slots to be the same card. I don't really see a need for more FPS but its always an arms race so I would probably expect a 2fps increase. I just don't see Canon having the tech to put all of this in a mirrorless camera just yet unless they have an ace up their sleeve.


Hy broiWhat about the replacement model of Canon rebel t7i/800d releasing or other Details? DO you have any idea about when the Canon rebel T8i/Eos 850d have coming out? What's its expectation over its previous model rebel T7i/800d. I mean extra features.


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## Pape (Feb 19, 2019)

we dont need 100mpixel pictures but we need save pictures forests and meadows for tomorrow generations who may need 100mpix


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## kaptainkatsu (Feb 19, 2019)

My prediction is solely my opinion based on my user experience on the 1DX2 (200K clicks and counting), release cycles of the 1D series, what canon has put out in terms of the R Series and features a pro sports photographer would need/want in a Pro body. I don't have any industry connections or insight.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 19, 2019)

Personally, as a multiple 1DX MkII using generalist, i’d Like a 1DX MkIII with a host of upgrades and improvements along with a high MP ‘pro’ R.

I see them as complimenting each other rather than competing, anybody that says the AF in the mirrorless cameras is close to the abilities in general uses is even close to the performance of DSLR’s yet is either fooling themselves or using different cameras in different situations to me. The R doesn’t come close to the 1DX MkII AF in general shooting when the going gets a little tough, subject movement, dimmer venues, high speed tracking etc etc. but there are good applications for WYSIWYG, silent operation, flip screen, high MP, etc etc.

Next year i’d Love a 1DX MkIII and R ‘1’.


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## RayValdez360 (Feb 19, 2019)

From what I gather. Canon listens but held back on a lot of things, mainly lenses and waited until the EOS R was released. Some examples are the 50 1.2, new 85 1.2, 24-70 IS, and the 15-35 IS. So if that trend continues. Maybe they held back on the 5DS R successor as well in the same fashion and will be next.


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## hendrik-sg (Feb 19, 2019)

If the mirrorless path is not yet ready for sport application, the least sporty pro camera is the 5ds, which logically could be the first Pro R then. It's also the one that is the least up to date, with it's old style low DR sensor. 

Next logical step would be a 5div replacement, which can wait 1 more year. The 1dxiii as the most demanding one could be the last FF DSLR

Crop is less clear for me, the lineup is much more complicated and we don't know if better crop's will be R mount or if they will be M-Mount, so I would not want to guess.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 19, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Personally, as a multiple 1DX MkII using generalist, i’d Like a 1DX MkIII with a host of upgrades and improvements along with a high MP ‘pro’ R.
> 
> I see them as complimenting each other rather than competing, anybody that says the AF in the mirrorless cameras is close to the abilities in general uses is even close to the performance of DSLR’s yet is either fooling themselves or using different cameras in different situations to me. The R doesn’t come close to the 1DX MkII AF in general shooting when the going gets a little tough, subject movement, dimmer venues, high speed tracking etc etc. but there are good applications for WYSIWYG, silent operation, flip screen, high MP, etc etc.
> 
> Next year i’d Love a 1DX MkIII and R ‘1’.


How much better is the low light AF in the 1DX II than the 5DIV? Because I feel that, specifically in low light, the EOS R AF wipes the floor with the 5DIV in terms of how dark of an object it is able to focus on, and focus accurately at that.


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## Trey T (Feb 19, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I can't imagine that the first pro body in the R system will be anything like a 1dx. A 5ds replacement is much more likely, and tracking speed / fps is much less critical there as good quality pictures.
> 
> They have to get a 10 fold increase in speed on the processing power with Digic 9 to even make a run at a A9 like tracking system, or have some major major increases with the algorithms used.


If you can pick something from the 1DX, then it's the fps burst, but with some sacrifice. I predict that it will be a compact body with 6fps @ FF 35MP+ and 12fps @ cropped 25MP+, which is plausible given that the 1DX is capable of 14fps @ FF 20MP. It can very well be their MILC flagship.

I'm pretty certain that the EOS-R will all be FF and compact body, given the current trend w/ R and RP.


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## Chuckmet (Feb 19, 2019)

NetMage said:


> I would like to see the 7D Mark III with improved sensor / DR and less sports focus, more all around best APS-C.


Sounds like you are describing the current 80D.


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## degos (Feb 19, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Next year i’d Love a 1DX MkIII and R ‘1’.



"More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light."

It's the guys with the longest, most expensive kit lists that are first in line for MOAR TECHNOLOGIES!!!1!! yet stuff their signatures with profoundities.

Have you pressed a shutter button today?


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## unfocused (Feb 19, 2019)

Given that this is a CR1, I'm not really *expecting* anything. But, I would agree that the 7DIII seems like the most logical "pro" DSLR body for an update, just through a process of elimination.

1DxIII is more likely to come in 2020.
5DIV is really too recent for a replacement.
5Ds/5Dsr is the best candidate to go mirrorless. 

That leaves the 7D II as the oldest "pro" body and it is the most in need of an update. Plus, as this stage, I don't see the technology sufficiently developed to deliver the performance of either the 7d or 1D in a mirrorless form factor. Finally, Canon has to have a huge dilemma in considering the possible mirrorless future of the 7D line, as they'd have to decide whether it would be an M mount or an R mount. If and when the 7D series goes mirrorless, users are going to want to use the R mount lenses, but putting an R mount on a APS-C body could really complicate the lineup (where would that leave the 80 D?) . The most prudent choice for Canon is to wait at least one more generation to see how the mirrorless environment is shaking out before making any radical decisions on the 7D.


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## dtaylor (Feb 19, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I'm going to be really unhappy if after over a year of waiting since the release of the lukewarm EOS R that Canon finally comes up with a "pro" DSLR and it's got all the controls/features you want, but with some crazy 100MP sensor.
> 
> Crazy-high megapixel cameras are a special use case. I want a true successor to a 5D4 or IDXII sensor... Modest megapixels and great high ISO performance. Nobody needs 100MP.* Plenty of people need better low light performance.



1) Contrary to common belief, megapixels do not adversely affect high ISO performance for stills. It only seems that way because people pixel peep.

2) More importantly: there aren't any great gains left to be made in high ISO performance. All the shipping FF sensors are very close to each other, and the next generation will be very close or identical to this one. *We're bumping up against the laws of physics here* while pixel peeping images at 200% and fighting over DxO scores that indicate 1/3 stop or less difference.

Note that astrophotographers ultimately turn to speciality sensors which are tuned for their application and *which are cooled* to deal with sensitivity and noise. And even they're not gaining leaps and bounds.

If I were Canon I would introduce a 100mp sensor but with a special "low light" 25mp mode. And I would use the absolute best possible NR/scaling/sharpening algorithms...even if it meant a quad core DIGIC system...to make that mode appear to produce incredible low light images. It wouldn't _really_ be better than just doing the work yourself in PS or Lightroom, nor better than other FF sensors properly processed. But it would be enough to win over vlog reviews and get everyone talking. _"I got the Canon RsR because I have to have the best landscape and the best nighttime photos! Why didn't Sony think of this???"_

And...in fairness...if the camera does some of the PP work for you and does a good job, that's not a bad feature to have.


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## dtaylor (Feb 19, 2019)

NetMage said:


> I would like to see the 7D Mark III with improved sensor / DR and less sports focus, more all around best APS-C.



The 7D niche is sports and wildlife, so they're not pulling back from that.

That said: 
* Make whatever mods are necessary to the 80D sensor to offer 4k with DPAF even if it's cropped.
* Drop that sensor in the 7D mk II body. 24mp with improved DR and high ISO.
* Make the RAW buffer 2-3x deeper. 
* Improve iTR performance. (I like it, but it's not as sticky as Nikon's latest tracking AF.)
* Bump the fps by 2.
* Touchscreen. And if they can fully weather seal it: flip out touchscreen.

At the right price that would be a killer 7D iteration.


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## gbc (Feb 19, 2019)

If the "pro" R camera isn't shipping until 2020 I hope/think it makes sense that it would be the 5DmIV successor, doesn't it? I have the R and like it, but it's my second camera body and I can't really imagine it being more than that. But if the next one out can replace my 5DmIV, and be perfectly happy using the R as my second body for the next ten years.


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## RobbieHat (Feb 19, 2019)

My guess will be 5DSR replacement first (high MP sensor, new card technology to increase write speeds/FPS and hopefully higher DR). Goes nicely with lots of the lenses that have been announced and will sell well to studio/landscape photographers and a bunch of people that already bought the R. 

Second will be 7DII/80D replacement for mirrorless (ASP-C, FPS bump, modest bump in MP, improved AF system, improved ISO performance). This will allow Canon to sell lots of these cameras to people who have been desperately waiting for this long overdue replacement/upgrade. It will also support the sale of a bunch of R lenses (100-400, new 400, new 500, new 600 f.4s). 

I would have said this would be a trickle down camera from any new 1DxII mirrorless system but in this case with new technology I could see Canon using the other systems to perfect the professional system versus the other way around. Am probably totally wrong, but the needs/demands of true professionals for the 1Dx replacement will either make or break the system for years to come if they are truly all in on mirrorless. 

I have a good friend who has been a professional landscape photographer for years and uses the Nikon system. He has the 850 and Z7 and we are on vacation together shooting side by side (I have my older and trusty 5DSR). He hates the EVF on the Z7 with a passion and says it is not up to snuff for too many scenarios (bright daylight, night photography in particular). Canon will have to address this in the 1DX (and 5DSR and 7DII replacements) replacement at a minimum for that audience or they will really struggle to move those bodies. It is so bad that he is ready to sell his Z7 and just work with the 850 until it is improved. 

All speculation at this point but I have a wallet burning with cash for replacement lenses and systems for my style of photography. I guess I will sit on the couch for the time being until we start to get more information. 

Bob


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## Go Wild (Feb 19, 2019)

Things in perspective...If Canon takes a hole year (one more....) to send to he market a great mirrorless camera it will loose a LOT of costumers. Why? Well...it´s very predictable that Sony can send new cameras this year....There has been some talks about the new A7SIII and about the new A7r4 (I believe it´s a bit early, but Sony doesn´t have the same behaviour of Canon in releasing new cameras.) People that bought this cameras 2 years ago may have the need (or the desire) of a new camera after 2 years. In parallel, people that bought the EOS 5D S (and R) will also start thinking in a upgrade. If Sony delivers a new line of cameras before Canon and if they really respond to the "demands" of the market, or show great specs in evolution terms, well....then people wil not wait any longer for a response by Canon. And if someone buy´s a 3500$ body will not buy another one 6 months later....

For my professional needs, I do have some huge works both in stills and video coming up in middle 2019 and beginning of 2020. I can wait for Canon a little bit longer until the last quarter of the year (but not the announcement date....the release date!!!!) But i do want a LOT to exchange my Sony A7r3 for a Canon to payr with my 1dx mkII. But if Sony releases a killer machine in middle of the year....I may start thinking in a good bye Canon...But don´t want so please Canon give us some good cameras!!

Regarding the roadmap, it makes sense that the next camera to be a high resolution one in the R sistem, I do believe it will be a replacement for the 5Ds series and will be the end of the series in DSLR world. I think Canon will progressively adopt R sistem has the primarily one...I don´t see Canon releasing a new 1dxMKIII soon, although for a long time, the professional line of Canon always was the 1D series and the prosumer cameras the 5D series....So if Canon mentions a professional new camera it should be a 1D series camera....

It is my believe that canon could win a lot by reducing the different lines of cameras, they are way too much cameras....And start compacting things in less cameras!! The market has changed! Sony compacts features and they are having great results in that! 

I mentioned this in previous posts in other topics, Canon new R sistem is promising, the EOS R is a great camera for a start, the EOS RP is a great "entry level" camera....but we need the sharks Canon! Especially us, that we do make a living with cameras...we can´t stay behind competition!! 2 years earlier if we wanted a Camera that makes 10 bit 4:2:2 we can only get that on specialized cinema cameras....nowadays you get that on a panasonic gh5, on a Sony A7SII, and if you don´t need that, you can get an ATOMOS and record with HDMI output. Canon doesn´t give you any of this!! Not even the 1dx mkII! 

So don´t fool around, don´t splash specs in 4 or 5 different cameras, make 2 great cameras and you´ll have my money! Don´t make it, and Sony will have my money! This is only me talking, but I am one in a LOT on users in the market that think like this! After more that 2 years waiting for Canon response, it more than time!! And I don´t care if its mirrorless or DSLR, just send some god damn great cameras to the market!!!!!


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## privatebydesign (Feb 19, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> How much better is the low light AF in the 1DX II than the 5DIV? Because I feel that, specifically in low light, the EOS R AF wipes the floor with the 5DIV in terms of how dark of an object it is able to focus on, and focus accurately at that.


I couldn’t say as I haven’t used the two side by side, I have used the 1DX MkII and R side by side and the 1DX MkII was significantly better in bad light with distant/small subjects. I felt even the 1DX’s live view was better the the R, but that might be cognitive bias, however it wasn’t very different from either camera when using the back screen to focus.


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## PureClassA (Feb 19, 2019)

Yup, I'm hoping a for a really nice surprise out of NAB too. A new Cinema line camera COULD even mean an EOS R Cinema body (EOS RC), but don't see that as being very likely at this point. The Canon Cinema line is pretty well fleshed out right now with the C200 and C300II. 8K doesn't seem like something Canon would drive hard at right now as it's practical application is pretty limited by post production work flows. 8K throws out a TON of data and I can't even imagine the requisite amount of computer processing power it would take to edit large amounts of footage.

The only thing missing is an entry level Cinema camera in the $3500-$5000 range. Right now the C200 is $7500 just to get going (sans lens) and Canon has yet to offer a totally competitive video geared DSLR. A Canon version of the Sony A7S would sell very well even at $3300 (priced like the 5D4). But right now, there's nothing to compete with the FS5 at $4500, while the FS7 is in line with the C200 with a few more bells and whistles but not the Canon look and quality. A new C100 with 4k would seem most likely pricing in around $4500 with frame rates comparable to the Canon 1DX2. 4k 24/30/60 1080p up to 120 but then add the 4k CLog and 10bit 422 output like the EOS R. This would probably mean the C200 would need some new firmware as well or at least reserve that Clog 2 and 3 with RAW output for it over the HDMI, along with still a better viewfinder, etc...

If a new C100 emerges, there's not a whole lot of room to maneuver between it and the existing C200, spec-wise, as you can't make a 3rd iteration of the C100 and NOT have 4K this time around, which they may take the easy road and just kill off 4k60 from it and leave it at 30fps and still hold back the 120fps in 1080p


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## privatebydesign (Feb 19, 2019)

degos said:


> "More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light."
> 
> It's the guys with the longest, most expensive kit lists that are first in line for MOAR TECHNOLOGIES!!!1!! yet stuff their signatures with profoundities.
> 
> Have you pressed a shutter button today?


 yes, have you?

This is my trade and I have to invest in it, as a set of tools the investment isn’t that big, less than a decent car to drive for Uber or Lyft. Also I was using 1DS MkIII’s for 8 years so didn’t spend a dime on bodies for nearly a decade, but if I lost it all tomorrow and had to buy a camera for myself to play with I’d get a <$1,000 1DS MkIII and a 35 f2 IS and a couple of PCB Einstein’s that would cost more than the body. There is very little I shoot as a generalist I couldn’t do with that $2,000 setup, but when you go into specialities I have to invest, the fact that I have built a modest kit over the last 20 years doesn’t really deserve derision.

I can live without any new bodies or lenses or lights for the rest of my career and retirement, if that 1DX MkIII and high resoulution R came out I wouldn’t be first in line, but I’d budget for them, if they don’t I don’t care. But my point was not what I have or what i’d like, my point was that I see the systems as complimentary rather then either or. I am very looking forwards to getting a body that allows me to rear filter the 11-24 and the TS-E17 amd 15mm fisheye, why wouldn’t I? I like having new possibilities, but that doesn’t mean for one second I think I can’t live without them.

As for the signature, I have been here for years and got asked several times what gear I had, I felt it added background to my input but if people are misconstruing that as boasting i’m happy to take it down, it is a comparatively recent addition. If anybody only ever takes one thing from my years of input here I would hope it would be the ‘light’ “profundity”.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 19, 2019)

Sony is rumored to have A7SIII/A9R (36 mpx, 5.7 million dot EVF, 16 bit sensor) and maybe A7RIV.


Go Wild said:


> Things in perspective...If Canon takes a hole year (one more....) to send to he market a great mirrorless camera it will loose a LOT of costumers. Why? Well...it´s very predictable that Sony can send new cameras this year....There has been some talks about the new A7SIII and about the new A7r4 (I believe it´s a bit early, but Sony doesn´t have the same behaviour of Canon in releasing new cameras.) People that bought this cameras 2 years ago may have the need (or the desire) of a new camera after 2 years. In parallel, people that bought the EOS 5D S (and R) will also start thinking in a upgrade. If Sony delivers a new line of cameras before Canon and if they really respond to the "demands" of the market, or show great specs in evolution terms, well....then people wil not wait any longer for a response by Canon. And if someone buy´s a 3500$ body will not buy another one 6 months later....
> 
> For my professional needs, I do have some huge works both in stills and video coming up in middle 2019 and beginning of 2020. I can wait for Canon a little bit longer until the last quarter of the year (but not the announcement date....the release date!!!!) But i do want a LOT to exchange my Sony A7r3 for a Canon to payr with my 1dx mkII. But if Sony releases a killer machine in middle of the year....I may start thinking in a good bye Canon...But don´t want so please Canon give us some good cameras!!
> 
> ...



I waited and waited to upgrade my camera but I think I might be adding partially or completely switch to Sony or Pansonic if they release a 60-100 mpx pro body

Sony A7RIV/A9R/A7SIII (36 mpx 16 bit 5.76 million dot, Sony eyeAF and live tracking) is very enticing and would likely make me switch. Panasonic S1 $2500 has IBIS, ergonomic, weather sealing, 5.76 million dot EVF, good eyeAF and good 4K.


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## RobbieHat (Feb 19, 2019)

degos said:


> "More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light."
> 
> It's the guys with the longest, most expensive kit lists that are first in line for MOAR TECHNOLOGIES!!!1!! yet stuff their signatures with profoundities.
> 
> Have you pressed a shutter button today?


I have as well (on vacation and shooting quite a bit). I am not a professional but leverage good equipment (bodies and lenses) for all of the shots I do take and get (as well as print for myself, friends and family). I shoot landscape and wildlife and the body I use most is the 5DSR. I have seriously considered a shift to Nikon or Sony on numerous occasions over the past 2 years but have held off hoping Canon will catch up in sensors. They have always dominated in lens technology and due to my investment in glass I am apprehensive to switch. 

It is beyond time that they innovate, partner or buy from a superior sensor company and get that end of their equipment back in line with the leaders. They are leaders in every other aspect (ergonomics, lenses, menu systems (UI), after sales service) but resting too long on your laurels makes you a Sears, Kodak, Nokia, et al.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 19, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> 1) Contrary to common belief, megapixels do not adversely affect high ISO performance for stills. It only seems that way because people pixel peep.


What proof do you have of this? Seems pretty suspect considering that the 1DX II is an older camera than the 5DIV, yet it has a much higher ISO range, and about 33% lower resolution.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Feb 19, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I couldn’t say as I haven’t used the two side by side, I have used the 1DX MkII and R side by side and the 1DX MkII was significantly better in bad light with distant/small subjects.


This also seems really suspect to me, as the 1Dx II autofocus is rated to -3EV, compared to the EOS R at -6EV. And yes I realize the EOS R was rated with a faster lens than normally used, but even compensating for this, I think the EOS R's rating bests the 1DX II.


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## proutprout (Feb 19, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> so I think this year will be a glass buying year for me then. A 70-200 F 2.8 is still on the wishlist


Maybe with a littlebit of glue you could fix it to a M50 while waiting for a real R body. Or maybe we just could all buy glass this year, then wait 2-3 years and hope Canon releases a real R body that has 1080 @ 60 for $3899 while dropping to 720p with ef glass. That would make a lot of sense !


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## privatebydesign (Feb 19, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> What proof do you have of this? Seems pretty suspect considering that the 1DX II is an older camera than the 5DIV, yet it has a much higher ISO range, and about 33% lower resolution.


It's true. There is very little difference between a high resolution image downsampled to a lower resolution one if the sensors are the same generation and you are looking at the same sensor area.

I did and posted exhaustive testing comparing the 7D and the 1Ds MkIII at same sensor areas and the detail and noise differences were minute even in testing conditions.


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## davidcl0nel (Feb 19, 2019)

I think there will be a EOS RS (as replacement for 5DS/R) and a EOS RX (with 20+fps) at the end of the year, in the early 2020, because in summer 2020 there are Olympic games in Tokyo. Canon will never miss this chance at home!

But 1DX3 and 5D Mark 5 might be in the pipeline too, if Canon dont want a full switch to EOS R. Especially the fast fps is easier without a mirror... so maybe a "low megapixel" 24MP 20fps camera would be "sufficient" for all sporting events...
And IF there is no 5D Mark 5, there will be a EOS R2 with the successor sensor...
But I think they will do at least some years both paths, but the next DSLR camera announcements will be the last of every line. (7D4 also)...


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## twoheadedboy (Feb 19, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> I'm going to be really unhappy if after over a year of waiting since the release of the lukewarm EOS R that Canon finally comes up with a "pro" DSLR and it's got all the controls/features you want, but with some crazy 100MP sensor.
> 
> Crazy-high megapixel cameras are a special use case. I want a true successor to a 5D4 or IDXII sensor... Modest megapixels and great high ISO performance. Nobody needs 100MP.* Plenty of people need better low light performance.
> 
> ...



Just becomes it comes with 100 MP doesn't mean you have to shoot at that resolution...


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## privatebydesign (Feb 19, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> This also seems really suspect to me, as the 1Dx II autofocus is rated to -3EV, compared to the EOS R at -6EV. And yes I realize the EOS R was rated with a faster lens than normally used, but even compensating for this, I think the EOS R's rating bests the 1DX II.


All I can say is I was shooting at 1/250, f2.8, iso 6400 at the weekend and the 1DX MkII was significantly more composed in the AF department.


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## flip314 (Feb 19, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> All I can say is I was shooting at 1/250, f2.8, iso 6400 at the weekend and the 1DX MkII was significantly more *composed *in the AF department.



Pun intended?


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 19, 2019)

RobbieHat said:


> I have as well (on vacation and shooting quite a bit). I am not a professional but leverage good equipment (bodies and lenses) for all of the shots I do take and get (as well as print for myself, friends and family). I shoot landscape and wildlife and the body I use most is the 5DSR. I have seriously considered a shift to Nikon or Sony on numerous occasions over the past 2 years but have held off hoping Canon will catch up in sensors. They have always dominated in lens technology and due to my investment in glass I am apprehensive to switch.
> 
> It is beyond time that they innovate, partner or buy from a superior sensor company and get that end of their equipment back in line with the leaders. They are leaders in every other aspect (ergonomics, lenses, menu systems (UI), after sales service) but resting too long on your laurels makes you a Sears, Kodak, Nokia, et al.



I don't know if Canon is really a leader in ergonomic, menu etc. Nikon Z series is similiar to EOS R. Panasonic S1/R has better ergonomic, weather sealing, joystick, menu, fully touch screen LCD. They also have better EVF at 5.6 million EVF, a very robus IBIS with eyeAF and 4K with dual card slot for ONLY $200 more than EOS R.

Canon may a wide range of lens but it isn't like third party alternatives isn't decent either. I have been extremely happy with my Sigma 105 1.4 Art, 135 1.8 Art, 14-24 Art and Tamron 90mm and 15-30 for significant less than Canon L alternative. I've have been mostly buying third party alternative as of late and pass over Canon 85 1.4 IS. The new RF lenses is nice, but is it worth at least 1/3 more? Not for me.


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## justaCanonuser (Feb 19, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Crazy-high megapixel cameras are a special use case. I want a true successor to a 5D4 or IDXII sensor... Modest megapixels and great high ISO performance. Nobody needs 100MP.* Plenty of people need better low light performance.



You nailed it. I gonna join your club, if you allow.


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## dolina (Feb 19, 2019)

Another EF body doesn’t make sense and it appears to me just a rumor based on wishful thinking. 

Two RF bodies does make great business sense before July 2020.

RF equivalent to the D5, 1DX2 and A9. Another RF equivalent to the D850, 5Ds R and A7R3

Really wish CR had a filter to filter out Cinema EOS rumors. A lot of us are just interested with the DSLR or mirrorless.

50MP appears to be the current sweet spot for medium format cameras. So maybe a 50MP RF body with better ISO and DR?


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## PureClassA (Feb 19, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> All I can say is I was shooting at 1/250, f2.8, iso 6400 at the weekend and the 1DX MkII was significantly more composed in the AF department.


 here here. Look, the -6EV focusing capability in the EOS R is HUGE (I haven't used one, just going by whats on paper) but in real world, particularly when shooting in shooting in AF Servo Mode, I'll take my 1DX2 every day and twice on Sunday. The deeper sensitivity on a Camera like the EOS R is probably mostly useful in single shot or simple things like that. Probably less effective when chasing moving targets or takings loads of pictures. Camera for a different purpose. I'd be curious to hear from folks who have used the EOS R to get their feedback on how well that -6 works in different situations


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## PureClassA (Feb 19, 2019)

justaCanonuser said:


> You nailed it. I gonna join your club, if you allow.



I rarely reach for my 5DSR compared to the 1DX2. Beautiful images, but oh lord the file sizes... I mainly use it when I'm taking large group photos to put that extra resolve on every face as some of those images I do print at 24x36


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## dtaylor (Feb 19, 2019)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> What proof do you have of this? Seems pretty suspect considering that the 1DX II is an older camera than the 5DIV, yet it has a much higher ISO range, and about 33% lower resolution.



They're about the same at the same view size across all ISOs. The 5D IV "only" goes to 102,400 but they're both useless by that point. The two ISOs above that are gimmicks on the 1DX II and any consumer ILC which offers them.




The 5Ds has a bit more noise but renders more detail, so after PP it will produce the sharper, cleaner print. Capping it at 12,800 was a poor decision on Canon's part, as you can underexpose by 1ev at 12,800, push in post, and end up with competitive images to FF cameras that have "native" 25,600. (Native is in quotes because by these ISOs there's not much difference between what the camera is doing and a PS push.) IMHO 25,600 is a reasonable cap for any currently shipping FF body. By 51,200 everything has hideously ugly and intrusive noise.




And here's the current Sony bodies. Kinda like the 5Ds the A7r3 has a bit more noise, but also more detail, so after PP it's actually going to be the sharper/cleaner image by a bit.




Now let's put the "not a high ISO camera / old and busted Canon sensor tech" 5Ds against the "great low light / new hotness Sony sensor tech" A7s II. 5Ds isn't quite as clean but it's so much sharper, with so much additional detail that it doesn't matter. (You can't see the full sharpness/detail gap at the same view size as the Sony because the MP gap is so large.) If you NR to the level of sharpness available in the A7s II there won't be a speck of noise in the 5Ds print.


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## Hector1970 (Feb 19, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> I rarely reach for my 5DSR compared to the 1DX2. Beautiful images, but oh lord the file sizes... I mainly use it when I'm taking large group photos to put that extra resolve on every face as some of those images I do print at 24x36


The 5DSR has its supporters. I always prefer the 5D IV to it. In my two cameras the 5D IV is much better especially as the ISO rises.
The 5DSR is fine in good conditions like a studio or in good light at ISO 100.
When I'm on a photography trip I usually have both cameras and I always prefer the 5D IV.
I don't know if I have a bad version of the 5DSR.
It was a pretty early version of it.
The files sizes of raw photographs are a bit of pain when you take alot of photographs. 
I could see with small birds it might be an advantage but for me for most types of photography the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
I could only think that 100 MP would be even more of a headache.
I do think a high MP 50 or 100 will be the next mirrorless camera.
I'd prefer a Mark IV mirrorless alternative but something that could easily be seen as an improvement on the Mark IV - otherwise what is the point of mirrorless


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## PureClassA (Feb 19, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> The 5DSR has its supporters. I always prefer the 5D IV to it. In my two cameras the 5D IV is much better especially as the ISO rises.
> The 5DSR is fine in good conditions like a studio or in good light at ISO 100.
> When I'm on a photography trip I usually have both cameras and I always prefer the 5D IV.
> I don't know if I have a bad version of the 5DSR.
> ...



Yup. it's a studio camera. And it's GREAT for that. Outdoors in natural light is fine too provided you shoot in mid to lower ISOs. Tripod mounted or very capable IS lenses are a must unless you can always shoot at very fast shutters speeds. It doesn't take much motion to induce blur thanks to being so Hi-Res.

That's also why this NEW talk of Canon IBIS development make s a TON of sense in an EOS R Pro model with a 50MP+ sensor that would ostensibly be the 5DS replacement. IBIS is good for video and high resolution stills. I've never had an issue shooting handheld with normal resolution sensors like the 1DX2 or my 5D3 (Or my 6D or my 7D...or my T2i). But I've had a lot of occasions where I THINK i nailed a shot with 5DSR (handheld, looking through OVF) only to get home in Lightroom and find out, "Nope...." I never take that thing out anymore without tripods and IS glass, which mostly for me with that camera I'm doing portrait stuff, so it's the 85L 1.4 IS


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## leviathan18 (Feb 19, 2019)

so this pro end of 2019 early 2020 is the rumored dual slot camera from the other day or something else


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## Mr Majestyk (Feb 19, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> What about a 5D IV replacement? When do you expect that and what kind of feature?



There will not be a 5D5 IMO. And frankly it's impossible to say what features it's EOS R equivalent will lack compared to the competition, but it'll be a long list. It's been well over a decade since Canon delivered a class leading camera on features. If they haven't been embarrassed to change paths by now they never will. EOS RP is proof o


Kit Lens Jockey said:


> What proof do you have of this? Seems pretty suspect considering that the 1DX II is an older camera than the 5DIV, yet it has a much higher ISO range, and about 33% lower resolution.



Yet the 5DIV at high ISO is as good when resolution is equalised and better at lower ISO. 5DsR was never worse than 5D3 even at ISO6400 and massively better below that. You aren't really worse off with higher MP unless you get to crazy ISO's. A7sII with those fat pixels is king at extreme ISO but is blown away in normal range by A7RIII. Give me 48MP over 12MP for FF any day.


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## Mr Majestyk (Feb 19, 2019)

davidcl0nel said:


> I think there will be a EOS RS (as replacement for 5DS/R) and a EOS RX (with 20+fps) at the end of the year, in the early 2020, because in summer 2020 there are Olympic games in Tokyo. Canon will never miss this chance at home!
> 
> But 1DX3 and 5D Mark 5 might be in the pipeline too, if Canon dont want a full switch to EOS R. Especially the fast fps is easier without a mirror... so maybe a "low megapixel" 24MP 20fps camera would be "sufficient" for all sporting events...
> And IF there is no 5D Mark 5, there will be a EOS R2 with the successor sensor...
> But I think they will do at least some years both paths, but the next DSLR camera announcements will be the last of every line. (7D4 also)...



IMO there won't be a 5D5, what's the point. Nikon at least made the Z7 a reasonable approximation of the D850 so you can bet there won't be a DSLR replacement for the D850. They have to go all in on mirrorless. Trouble for Canon is they will be releasing supposedly better cameras around the time Sony is in its next upgrade cycle. They'll have to compete against A7RIV, not A7RIII. They'll be lucky to get a camera that could compete with the A7RIII IMO let alone A7RIV.

1DXIII will come because they are light years from that sort of performance for a mirrorless camera and the Olympics is too big to use a less than stellar camera. Even Nikon will release a D6. 1DXIII better be a beast as Sony will unleash A9II next year and it's hard to imagine how good that will be for AF. If 1DXIII is as lame an update as the 1DXII, the first 1 series that I've not bought they'll be in big trouble. I have no faith Canon can even crack the 21MP 1 series barrier or if they'll do they'll only offer 22MP.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 20, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> There will not be a 5D5 IMO. And frankly it's impossible to say what features it's EOS R equivalent will lack compared to the competition, but it'll be a long list. It's been well over a decade since Canon delivered a class leading camera on features. If they haven't been embarrassed to change paths by now they never will. EOS RP is proof o
> .



I agree. They aren't the market to make class leading camera on features and offering the best for buck. 

I suspect the 5D V/EOS R Pro will be underspec compared to the competition and overprice just like 5D IV, EOS R and 6D II. I'm definitely open to next camera from Sony A9R/A7SIII/A9 (5.76 million dot EVF, 16 bit sensor, eyeAF with live tracking) or Panasonic S1 now.


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## PureClassA (Feb 20, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> I agree. They aren't the market to make class leading camera on features and offering the best for buck.
> 
> I suspect the 5D V/EOS R Pro will be underspec compared to the competition and overprice just like 5D IV, EOS R and 6D II. I'm definitely open to next camera from Sony A9R/A7SIII/A9 (5.76 million dot EVF, 16 bit sensor, eyeAF with live tracking) or Panasonic S1 now.



I don't see how the 5D4 is either overpriced or underspeced. Same for the EOS R or 6D2. At least not for stills shooters, which is their primary market. The Canon 5D2, 5D3, and now 5D4 are still the MOST used cameras by daily professionals. The market would totally disagree. Now if we want to debate video features, that's a different story perhaps.

Canon is not a bells and whistles company. They are a quality company. And based on sales, professionals overwhelmingly agree.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 20, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> I don't see how the 5D4 is either overpriced or underspeced. Same for the EOS R or 6D2. At least not for stills shooters, which is their primary market. The Canon 5D2, 5D3, and now 5D4 are still the MOST used cameras by daily professionals. The market would totally disagree. Now if we want to debate video features, that's a different story perhaps.
> 
> Canon is not a bells and whistles company. They are a quality company. And based on sales, professionals overwhelmingly agree.



Market shares doesn't mean their recent camera isn't lackluster. They can still release lackluster camera and still has commerical success by drawing on EF lens user from early 5D2 days. They do have great professional support that's why many people are drawn to it along with legacy lens. It hard for people to switch since many don't want to part with their lens.

EOS R is $2300 camera without IBIS, dual card slot, uncropped 4K, 5D IV sensor. A7III has better eyeAF, dual card slot, 4k, IBIS, better sensor.

For only $200 more, Panasonic S1 has better build quality, weather sealing, IBIS, 4K 60, 4k 30 unlimited, build in focus stacking, high resolution mode, better eyeAF with AI tracking, dual card slot, joystick and 5.6 million EVF, faster FPS, and likely better sensor than Canon recycle 2 year old sensor.


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## Talys (Feb 20, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> They aren't the market to make class leading camera on features and offering the best for buck.


More accurately, Canon hasn't produced a camera that offers the right features and best bang for the buck *for your specific needs*.

I could turn it around and say that nobody has yet produced a mirrorless camera that has the best bang for the buck compared to Canon or Nikon DSLRs, for my the vast majority of my needs.

In many ways, the Canon mirrorless camera system -- which must include lenses and accessories and software, because you can't take photographs with just a camera body -- is a much better value than its competitors, because of the broad lens portfolio (including good, inexpensive lenses), a third party accessory ecosystem that is second to none, backwards lens compatibility for its mirrorless system that is at least an order of magnitude better than its competitors, and tethering software that is, well, at least, usable.

But even so, Canon DSLRs still work better for me, for now.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 20, 2019)

Talys said:


> More accurately, Canon hasn't produced a camera that offers the right features and best bang for the buck *for your specific needs*.
> 
> I could turn it around and say that nobody has yet produced a mirrorless camera that has the best bang for the buck compared to Canon or Nikon DSLRs, for my the vast majority of my needs.
> 
> ...



That's true. If you rely on Canon tethering, and need extensive EF lens lineup, lighting gear, then Canon it is for you.

I don't rely on Canon lighting anymore. I rely on Godox/Flashpoint for all my OCF than EX430/600 ($430 wow!). If I switch system, I just need to buy a trigger to control them.

I just need a trinity of lens (16-200mm) and fast prime (Sigma 105 1.4/135 1.8). Tamron & Tamron both provide third party alternative as -well if I decided to move. Tamron has $800 28-75 2.8 and will release 17-28 2.8.

Third party accessory is also available too for my needs - batteries, L bracket, lens filter. Everything else is not system specific - tripod, camera strap, external hard drive, USB Type C charger, SD cards. Beside camera body and lens, my most expensive accessories are my lighting kit. All my strobe and lighting is compatible with a $70 trigger.

Both Lightroom and Capture one provide extensive support for tethering option that's usable too.

While backward compatibility is nice, l also want native solution in the future. Sigma is releasing an EF-L lens adapter for the L mount Alliance while they release MC-11 and Metabone IV for it as well.

If Canon DSLR work well for you then good for you. Just use whatever you need.


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## mover (Feb 20, 2019)

My prediction is an EOS RS 50mp using the 5DSR sensor


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## PureClassA (Feb 20, 2019)

mover said:


> My prediction is an EOS RS 50mp using the 5DSR sensor



A joke, but some folks on here would believe that.


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## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Feb 20, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I can't imagine that the first pro body in the R system will be anything like a 1dx. A 5ds replacement is much more likely, and tracking speed / fps is much less critical there as good quality pictures.
> 
> They have to get a 10 fold increase in speed on the processing power with Digic 9 to even make a run at a A9 like tracking system, or have some major major increases with the algorithms used.



Owning the 5DS already ...

I'm going to guess the next EOS R more advanced model will NOT be a 5DS replacement. I think Canon needs most buyers to enjoy the ease of use and good performance. Unloading massive files and clogging Lightroom processing like molasses would not help the average shooter.

I'm hoping any changes are in card slots, frame rate, etc.. But 30 to 40 megapixels would be more than plenty.


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## PureClassA (Feb 20, 2019)

M. D. Vaden of Oregon said:


> Owning the 5DS already ...
> 
> I'm going to guess the next EOS R more advanced model will NOT be a 5DS replacement. I think Canon needs most buyers to enjoy the ease of use and good performance. Unloading massive files and clogging Lightroom processing like molasses would not help the average shooter.
> 
> I'm hoping any changes are in card slots, frame rate, etc.. But 30 to 40 megapixels would be more than plenty.



It's much more likely the PRO Model is a high-res replacement of the 5DS (I have a 5DSR too). 1DX2 people are (majority) not in the market to replace that body style. We may want a small companion body, but not a replacement. An EOS R body will never feel like and balance larger glass in hand like a 1DX2. Not ever. And no, professional 1DX2 people are not going run out and replace all their super expensive glass (think 400mm or 200-400mm) for more compact RF versions or try and strap it to some little compact MILC body.


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## peterzuehlke (Feb 20, 2019)

bbb34 said:


> Offering a choice does not mean fooling around. Canon tries to maximize profit. Buyers are looking for what serves them best - individually. There is no camera that serves everybody.


I have been seeing some tests, lately, (Fro) where the mirrorless versions of the 6d2 and 5d4 sensors are not doing as well as in the dslrs. Dslrs do have the advantage of a separate sensor for phase detect AF and more acute angle of light hitting the microlenses may have a negative effect to (cough Leica M8). I shoot mirrorless where it has advantages, but I am not sure it is competitive with dslrs yet.


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## criscokkat (Feb 20, 2019)

dolina said:


> Another EF body doesn’t make sense and it appears to me just a rumor based on wishful thinking.
> 
> Two RF bodies does make great business sense before July 2020.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty positive we'll see another R body by fall. I think it will come sooner than expected.


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## Woody (Feb 20, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I can't imagine that the first pro body in the R system will be anything like a 1dx. A 5ds replacement is much more likely, and tracking speed / fps is much less critical there as good quality pictures.
> 
> They have to get a 10 fold increase in speed on the processing power with Digic 9 to even make a run at a A9 like tracking system, or have some major major increases with the algorithms used.



Canon 1DX Mark II shoots at 16 fps 20 MP in live view. 
Sony A9 shoots at 20 fps 24 MP in live view.

Difference is about 1.5 times. How do you arrive at 10x difference?


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## Colorado (Feb 20, 2019)

Woody said:


> Difference is about 1.5 times. How do you arrive at 10x difference?


The difference between 1.5x and 10x is made up by the Sony cool factor. It's an important part of internet opinions everywhere.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 20, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> That's true. If you rely on Canon tethering, and need extensive EF lens lineup, lighting gear, then Canon it is for you.
> 
> I don't rely on Canon lighting anymore. I rely on Godox/Flashpoint for all my OCF than EX430/600 ($430 wow!). If I switch system, I just need to buy a trigger to control them.



I still like canon’s OEM speedlites, but I use them reluctantly. I also prefer third party lights (profoto).


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 20, 2019)

Woody said:


> Canon 1DX Mark II shoots at 16 fps 20 MP in live view.
> Sony A9 shoots at 20 fps 24 MP in live view.
> 
> Difference is about 1.5 times. How do you arrive at 10x difference?



The quoted post was about the tracking system, not still framerate.

I’m not sure how anyone on the outside figures the required throughput for that, though.


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## dtaylor (Feb 20, 2019)

peterzuehlke said:


> I have been seeing some tests, lately, (Fro) where the mirrorless versions of the 6d2 and 5d4 sensors are not doing as well as in the dslrs. Dslrs do have the advantage of a separate sensor for phase detect AF and more acute angle of light hitting the microlenses may have a negative effect to (cough Leica M8). I shoot mirrorless where it has advantages, but I am not sure it is competitive with dslrs yet.



Differences are slight. Another factor to consider is that the DSLR sensors are simply cooler as they're not being used in LiveView.


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## [email protected] (Feb 20, 2019)

The next significant body will be another R: no doubts about it. After ore-announcing 6 new RF lenses to be released 8+ months from now, Canon has sent out a strong message about their commitment to FF mirrorless. And being 2020 an Olympic year, preannuncino new cameras in Q3/4 and release them in H1 2020 makes total sense.
Can they afford to replace both the 5D and the 1DX with two corresponding mirrorless cameras? I honestly don’t know, but that would be certainly my ideal scenario.


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## Pape (Feb 20, 2019)

Reusing 5ds sensor doesnt sound bad joke if it comes with ibis and pixel shift and mirrorless system. lot of improvements on one step.
Earlier canon rumour told they working with 8k video R camera, compared to 8k ,sport shooting frame speed is easy trick.


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## dolina (Feb 20, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I'm pretty positive we'll see another R body by fall. I think it will come sooner than expected.


Probably the 1DX2 replacement to give Olympics photogs time to practice.


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## tron (Feb 20, 2019)

Regarding Sony's 20fps:

Uncompressed RAW drops it to ~12 or so
If you force mechanical shutter, it's limited to 5
If you use adapted lenses that must focus wide open, the burst drops variably based on the lens, generally to 12.

A lot of native lenses can only operate at a maximal rate of 15 FPS, the fastest ones actually do 20 FPS.

http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/www/support/ilc/products/ilce9/continuousshooting/en/index.html


----------



## nitram (Feb 20, 2019)

NetMage said:


> I don’t think mirrorless is ready or capable of competing with PDAF for sports or other high speed photography and hope for a DSLR in the next 7D.



I think it is but it is a more a question of processing speed. Currently, the face tracking and eye tracking is limited to 'close' range on the R and RP. To me, this indicates that the processor is likely not able to 'look' for faces and eyes everywhere on the sensor. Instead, the computational intensity is reduced by only looking for features that cover a certain portion of the sensor. I see this being fixed by either changing the algorithm to be more efficient or to have a faster processor. The problem is that the AF performance needed for a 1DXII replacement might need 4x or more Digic 8 processors and this would drain the battery like crazy. To me, Sony's processor fabrication talent has helped it beat Canon for the moment.


----------



## dtaylor (Feb 20, 2019)

Pape said:


> Reusing 5ds sensor doesnt sound bad joke if it comes with ibis and pixel shift and mirrorless system. lot of improvements on one step.



I agree. But you just know that there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth about dynamic range and high ISO if Canon reused an old sensor again. Even though the 5Ds sensor is already excellent at high ISO (and there's not much left to physically gain there), and not bad at all at 4ev of shadow latitude.

People can't get passed pixel peeping and DxO scores, hence all the memes about the current 5Ds being a "studio camera" that "needs a tripod" and "doesn't work well at high ISO." (All false.)

On top of that the 5Ds sensor doesn't have DPAF and can't do video at all. (I mean yeah...there's limited 1080p...but it's an afterthought.) I think the next R will be a high resolution model, but I can't imagine Canon will reuse the 5Ds sensor. They'll go with the 5D4 pixel architecture for DR and DPAF. Unless it's the first of their next generation architecture though I would expect severely cropped/binned 4k, if there's any 4k.

Or...maybe it will be cropped 8k.


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## dtaylor (Feb 20, 2019)

tron said:


> Regarding Sony's 20fps:
> 
> Uncompressed RAW drops it to ~12 or so
> If you force mechanical shutter, it's limited to 5
> If you use adapted lenses that must focus wide open, the burst drops variably based on the lens, generally to 12.



Ouch. I did not know that. So you get 5 fps or maybe 12/15/20 but with potential rolling shutter effects. Meh.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 20, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Ouch. I did not know that. So you get 5 fps or maybe 12/15/20 but with potential rolling shutter effects. Meh.


Both shutters roll.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 20, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> I still like canon’s OEM speedlites, but I use them reluctantly. I also prefer third party lights (profoto).



I struggle to find the value in Canon OEM speedlight. $250 for 430 EXII, 600EXII $480. If I buy a couple of 600, I would have fund the entire cost of my Godox lighting system that's more comprehensive to handle every task from shooting midday sun in HSS to wedding reception.

It doesn't provide the power of a strobe and speedlight of Godox lighting system. It's also system interchangeable with the trigger. I have yet to find any portrait or wedding photographer shooting with Canon lighting for a long time. It's mostly Godox or Profoto lately for their versatility.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 20, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> I agree. But you just know that there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth about dynamic range and high ISO if Canon reused an old sensor again. Even though the 5Ds sensor is already excellent at high ISO (and there's not much left to physically gain there), and not bad at all at 4ev of shadow latitude.
> 
> People can't get passed pixel peeping and DxO scores, hence all the memes about the current 5Ds being a "studio camera" that "needs a tripod" and "doesn't work well at high ISO." (All false.)
> 
> ...



I wouldn't be surprised if they reuse 5DSR would you? EOS R reuse 5D IV sensor, EOS RP reuse 6D II sensor. If they don't consider it as flagship camera, they may reuse it.

All the sensors we have from 2 years ago isn't bad. It just leave a bad taste when they aren't trying to improve on the sensor when many of the competitors are doing it - Sony, Nikon and Panasonic. 

I also wouldn't expect IBIS either if it's 5DSR replacement. They probably want to introduce that in a flagship camera as a selling point.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 20, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> I struggle to find the value in Canon OEM speedlight. $250 for 430 EXII, 600EXII $480. If I buy a couple of 600, I would have fund the entire cost of my Godox lighting system that's more comprehensive to handle every task from shooting midday sun in HSS to wedding reception.
> 
> It doesn't provide the power of a strobe and speedlight of Godox lighting system. It's also system interchangeable with the trigger. I have yet to find any portrait or wedding photographer shooting with Canon lighting for a long time. It's mostly Godox or Profoto lately for their versatility.



I like them largely because they’ve never failed me. They’re also interchangeable with other systems, FWIW. I used to drive canon speedights from a Sony a7Rii with yongnuo transceivers.

I’m not claiming they’re the best, just saying I like them.


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## dtaylor (Feb 20, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Both shutters roll.



In practice you almost never see the effect with a mechanical shutter.


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## dtaylor (Feb 20, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if they reuse 5DSR would you?



Yes. I think their next high resolution sensor will use the 5D IV pixel architecture if not something newer.



> All the sensors we have from 2 years ago isn't bad. It just leave a bad taste when they aren't trying to improve on the sensor when many of the competitors are doing it - Sony, Nikon and Panasonic.



Oh, I can almost guarantee you they're trying. But their "trying" involves getting passed some engineering or fabrication hurdle they're facing.



> I also wouldn't expect IBIS either if it's 5DSR replacement. They probably want to introduce that in a flagship camera as a selling point.



I imagine a mirrorless 5Ds/sr replacement would be a MSRP $3k - $3.5k camera. It would be "a" flagship camera. And while I think it's silly to say that particular sensor needs a tripod (higher shutter speeds will do), it is a sensor that benefits a lot from IS. It would be a good body to introduce IBIS.


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## PureClassA (Feb 20, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> I agree. But you just know that there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth about dynamic range and high ISO if Canon reused an old sensor again. Even though the 5Ds sensor is already excellent at high ISO (and there's not much left to physically gain there), and not bad at all at 4ev of shadow latitude.
> 
> People can't get passed pixel peeping and DxO scores, hence all the memes about the current 5Ds being a "studio camera" that "needs a tripod" and "doesn't work well at high ISO." (All false.)
> 
> ...



There is a near zero liklihood that the 5DS sensor would be reused if even only for the (most glaring) fact that Canon has moved all of its full frame fabrications (and I believe all crops as well) to on-chip ADCs. That sensor still used the older off-chip process, which is partly to blame for it’s lack of high ISO performance. A new 5DS/EOS R Pro with a similar resolution chip on the new fab should have notably better upper iso performance in terms of lower noise and like I said, that’s a chip you’d likely see IBIS employed as it makes the most sense there and that’s probably also why Canon is unclear on the release timing as they are probably trying to get IBIS into this thing


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## dtaylor (Feb 20, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> That sensor still used the older off-chip process, which is partly to blame for it’s lack of high ISO performance. A new 5DS/EOS R Pro with a similar resolution chip on the new fab should have notably better upper iso performance in terms of lower noise...



I literally just posted, in this thread, comparisons showing rough parity between 5D IV, 5Ds, 1DX II, A7 gen 3's, and A7S2. I should have included the 6D2 (off sensor ADC) and the A72 (on sensor ADC) because the 6D2 is notably better than the A72 while a bit behind the A73.

Neither ADC architecture nor sampling frequency (MP)...nor BSI for that matter...seem to impact high ISO that much for FF sensors. I would not expect anything more than fractional gains in high ISO for anyone's next sensors. But if Canon moves to on chip ADCs their next high resolution sensor should gain 1-2 stops base ISO shadow latitude.


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## kaptainkatsu (Feb 20, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> It's much more likely the PRO Model is a high-res replacement of the 5DS (I have a 5DSR too). 1DX2 people are (majority) not in the market to replace that body style. We may want a small companion body, but not a replacement. An EOS R body will never feel like and balance larger glass in hand like a 1DX2. Not ever. And no, professional 1DX2 people are not going run out and replace all their super expensive glass (think 400mm or 200-400mm) for more compact RF versions or try and strap it to some little compact MILC body.



This. People who don't daily use a 1D body comment and think that 1DX2/D5 users want a smaller body. The big body offers much more balance when using big telephotos and even the 70-200f2.8. Theres a reason why Canon released the version 3 400/2.8 and 600/4 in EF and not RF. I really hope Canon gives the version 3 treatment to the 300/2.8 in EF because I'm in the market in the next few years for a 300. EF will give me the option to use on my 1DX2, future 1dx3 and if its good enough some version of the R. Oh also the OVF is "Always on" which is great when you are running around in a field or woods or race track all day and don't have time to check and make sure your camera is not asleep.


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## scyrene (Feb 20, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> Yup. it's a studio camera. And it's GREAT for that. Outdoors in natural light is fine too provided you shoot in mid to lower ISOs. Tripod mounted or very capable IS lenses are a must unless you can always shoot at very fast shutters speeds. It doesn't take much motion to induce blur thanks to being so Hi-Res.



Erm I've shot the 5Ds extensively in all conditions and for all subjects, using it exactly as I did the 5D3, and it was fine. The 'studio camera' myth needs to die. If you pixel peep or crop a lot more, then you do need higher shutter speeds with the higher res camera, but remember its pixel density is the same as the 7D2 and nobody calls that a studio/special use camera.


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## scyrene (Feb 20, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> Market shares doesn't mean their recent camera isn't lackluster. They can still release lackluster camera and still has commerical success by drawing on EF lens user from early 5D2 days. They do have great professional support that's why many people are drawn to it along with legacy lens. It hard for people to switch since many don't want to part with their lens.



This is pretty weak imho, and doesn't explain the continued strong sales of Canon cameras year on year. Incidentally, 'lacklustre' is merely your opinion, which you're welcome to, but it doesn't have any special significance


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## peterzuehlke (Feb 20, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Differences are slight. Another factor to consider is that the DSLR sensors are simply cooler as they're not being used in LiveView.


For sure, and certainly still an issue for batteries. I would just like new tech I am spending $$$$ on to be a little better IQ not a little worse.


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## PureClassA (Feb 20, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> I literally just posted, in this thread, comparisons showing rough parity between 5D IV, 5Ds, 1DX II, A7 gen 3's, and A7S2. I should have included the 6D2 (off sensor ADC) and the A72 (on sensor ADC) because the 6D2 is notably better than the A72 while a bit behind the A73.
> 
> Neither ADC architecture nor sampling frequency (MP)...nor BSI for that matter...seem to impact high ISO that much for FF sensors. I would not expect anything more than fractional gains in high ISO for anyone's next sensors. But if Canon moves to on chip ADCs their next high resolution sensor should gain 1-2 stops base ISO shadow latitude.



I recall some years ago on here there was of course the great DR debates... ugh. And the principal issue was the additional noise being induced in the signal path between sensor and ADC. In other words the sensors themselves were not “noisy” but rather the archtecture of the pathway after it left said sensor. I also seemed to recall the noise improving measurably following the conversion to the new fab process whereby the old signal path which was the culprit was essentially eliminated. Again... Im trying recall discussions from 3-4 years ago, so I may be fuzzy. 

To be very clear, I’m not unhappy with my 5DSR. I actually love it apart from the understably huge RAW files but thats expected. 

I will say that yes, shadow recovery was notably better in similar situations and settings going from the 1DX (off chip) to the 1DX2 (on chip) in everything I shot. But you are right, the noise itself wasnt as stark a contrast however it was also noticably improved at upper ISOs (1600-6400) on my dx2


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 20, 2019)

scyrene said:


> This is pretty weak imho, and doesn't explain the continued strong sales of Canon cameras year on year. Incidentally, 'lacklustre' is merely your opinion, which you're welcome to, but it doesn't have any special significance



Strong sales doesn't mean anything to me. I don't own their shares. Canon RP may be the best Canon FF camera, but I wouldn't buy it since it doesn't meet my need. Same goes for other electronic devices like Beats headphone, MacBook, etc. I buy stuff based on my needs not what's popular.

You are also welcome to your own opinion. Just don't quote me and offer useless about opinion. I don't care about Canon Rebel, M50, RP.


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## scyrene (Feb 20, 2019)

bokehmon22 said:


> Strong sales doesn't mean anything to me. I don't own their shares. Canon RP may be the best Canon FF camera, but I wouldn't buy it since it doesn't meet my need. Same goes for other electronic devices like Beats headphone, MacBook, etc. I buy stuff based on my needs not what's popular.
> 
> You are also welcome to your own opinion. Just don't quote me and offer useless about opinion. I don't care about Canon Rebel, M50, RP.



You're missing the point, so I'll spell it out. You were basically suggesting that people continued to buy Canon bodies (after the 5D2 era??) because they were tied to the glass. I'm saying the sales demonstrate a lot of people find those bodies *do* meet their needs - glass isn't a good enough motivator to keep Canon at the top for so many years. Suggesting that they actually don't, and people are locked into a system they don't like by the lenses is to raise your idea of a good camera body to the status of universal truth. We know what your preferences are, you've repeated them enough on these forums recently. It doesn't make them any more relevant to anyone else, nor does it explain why other people keep buying things you consider inferior.


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## Larsskv (Feb 20, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> I recall some years ago on here there was of course the great DR debates... ugh. And the principal issue was the additional noise being induced in the signal path between sensor and ADC. In other words the sensors themselves were not “noisy” but rather the archtecture of the pathway after it left said sensor. I also seemed to recall the noise improving measurably following the conversion to the new fab process whereby the old signal path which was the culprit was essentially eliminated. Again... Im trying recall discussions from 3-4 years ago, so I may be fuzzy.
> 
> To be very clear, I’m not unhappy with my 5DSR. I actually love it apart from the understably huge RAW files but thats expected.
> 
> I will say that yes, shadow recovery was notably better in similar situations and settings going from the 1DX (off chip) to the 1DX2 (on chip) in everything I shot. But you are right, the noise itself wasnt as stark a contrast however it was also noticably improved at upper ISOs (1600-6400) on my dx2



Recently I got myself a 5D classic to use with Zeiss primes lenses. I have used it quite a lot, and still I haven’t had issues with either noise or lack of dynamic range. Ok, I have avoided putting it in very difficult lighting conditions, BUT, I haven’t had any issue taking the pictures I wanted to make, or from taking a photo worth taking. For most use, I think DR is the most overrated quality in a digital camera. The camera world has been stupified and lost perspective due to the hype around DR.


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## PureClassA (Feb 20, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> Recently I got myself a 5D classic to use with Zeiss primes lenses. I have used it quite a lot, and still I haven’t had issues with either noise or lack of dynamic range. Ok, I have avoided putting it in very difficult lighting conditions, BUT, I haven’t had any issue taking the pictures I wanted to make, or from taking a photo worth taking. For most use, I think DR is the most overrated quality in a digital camera. The camera world has been stupified and lost perspective due to the hype around DR.



Just to be clear (as things sometimes get skewed on here) I’m not suggesting older models were bad cameras, just that the newer processes Canon implimented 2 years ago or so have made improvements. I’ve never had a shot on any camera (and Ive had a LOT and they were all canon) be noisy to the point of distraction or unusable unless either I totally F’ed the shot or the light was so so so poor that no FF camera could have salvaged it. 

The highest number of shots I hit each year when ranked by ISO are easily 3200-6400 because of shooting live indoor dance performances with difficult lighting, no ability to strobe (cuz it’s live), and having to set minimum shutter speeds at 400-500 or so.

Both the 1DX and 1DX2 have provided very pleasing results in that dept


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## Larsskv (Feb 20, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> Just to be clear (as things sometimes get skewed on here) I’m not suggesting older models were bad cameras, just that the newer processes Canon implimented 2 years ago or so have made improvements. I’ve never had a shot on any camera (and Ive had a LOT and they were all canon) be noisy to the point of distraction or unusable unless either I totally F’ed the shot or the light was so so so poor that no FF camera could have salvaged it.
> 
> The highest number of shots I hit each year when ranked by ISO are easily 3200-6400 because of shooting live indoor dance performances with difficult lighting, no ability to strobe (cuz it’s live), and having to set minimum shutter speeds at 400-500 or so.
> 
> Both the 1DX and 1DX2 have provided very pleasing results in that dept



I wasn’t objecting to anything you said, but I can understand it if you thought so. Sorry for not being clear about it. My statement was made when I saw DR being discussed, and since I recently has reflected on the DR “issue” from a 5D classic standpoint, also owning the 5DIV and EOS R, I made a comment. It wasn’t really connected to your statement at all. 

My point is that even the 5D classic has enough DR to handle allmost every situation worth taking a picture of. Out of curiosity I looked up a D850 group and an A7RIII group on Flickr, looking for pictures that required lots of DR, and that I don’t think a Canon 5DIV would handle. After looking for quite some time, I couldn’t really find any images that I believe would be hard to take on a 5DIV, or a 6D for that matter. Those who seemed to require the most DR to make, was pushed so much I suspect the photographer to be color blind.


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## PureClassA (Feb 20, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> I wasn’t objecting to anything you said, but I can understand it if you thought so. Sorry for not being clear about it. My statement was made when I saw DR being discussed, and since I recently has reflected on the DR “issue” from a 5D classic standpoint, also owning the 5DIV and EOS R, I made a comment. It wasn’t really connected to your statement at all.
> 
> My point is that even the 5D classic has enough DR to handle allmost every situation worth taking a picture of. Out of curiosity I looked up a D850 group and an A7RIII group on Flickr, looking for pictures that required lots of DR, and that I don’t think a Canon 5DIV would handle. After looking for quite some time, I couldn’t really find any images that I believe would be hard to take on a 5DIV, or a 6D for that matter. Those who seemed to require the most DR to make, was pushed so much I suspect the photographer to be color blind.



My favorite was the DRones talking about taking pictures of coke bottles underexposed by 5 stops and the pushing it to show how great Sony was lol


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 21, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> In practice you almost never see the effect with a mechanical shutter.


While anecdotes are not data, I found that in practice you don’t see the effect much with the a9’s electronic shutter either. Granted I only used one for a week, but I shot a lot of pans.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 21, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> For most use, I think DR is the most overrated quality in a digital camera. The camera world has been stupified and lost perspective due to the hype around DR.



I don’t agree. And I bet you don’t really, either. Would you happily take a camera which records 5ev at ISO100? I wouldn’t either.

What has happened, I think, is that people have focused undue attention on differences in DR without much practical significance.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 21, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> I don’t agree. And I bet you don’t really, either. Would you happily take a camera which records 5ev at ISO100? I wouldn’t either.
> 
> What has happened, I think, is that people have focused undue attention on differences in DR without much practical significance.



Exactly. Abstract numbers on DR charts from review sites don't really matter until you actually work with cameras with different DR. I had an entertaining argument on this forum recently on this matter and I think these discussions happen here quite often.

I think the statement that 1-2 stop difference in DR 'doesn't matter in most cases' is very misleading, there's so many genres where such a difference doesn't matter at all and there are genres where it matters a lot and quite often. There may be no practical difference at all for some people and a big difference for others.

I owned different Canon cameras, worked temporarily with others and studied sample raw files, and so far 5DIV (my primary camera) is the most satisfying and the rest are hard to deal with in landscape photography. 200D (same DR as 80D) seems to be good enough, but I didn't use it much. Again that's for my workflow and for my typical shooting conditions.
If Canon releases next 5DSr replacement with no AA filter and DR at least as good as 5DIV, most likely I'll upgrade from my 5DIV. If its DR is worse, I'll think twice.


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## Nelu (Feb 21, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> My favorite was the DRones talking about taking pictures of coke bottles underexposed by 5 stops and the pushing it to show how great Sony was lol


But, but...what do you mean, that's not the right way to take photos?
Now I'm confused!


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## dtaylor (Feb 21, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> While anecdotes are not data, I found that in practice you don’t see the effect much with the a9’s electronic shutter either. Granted I only used one for a week, but I shot a lot of pans.



In fairness the A9's electronic shutter may be perfectly acceptable here. I don't have the hands on time with an A9 to judge this.

If Sony got the readout times low enough then I would have to retract my "meh" comment.


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## dtaylor (Feb 21, 2019)

Nelu said:


> But, but...what do you mean, that's not the right way to take photos?
> Now I'm confused!



Of course not. A _Canon 5D IV_ can push 5 stops  You underexpose by *SIX stops* to prove your superiority.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 21, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Of course not. A _Canon 5D IV_ can push 5 stops  You underexpose by *SIX stops* to prove your superiority.



You're making fun of something nobody does. You don't need a high DR in your camera just so that you can push underexposed images by 5 stops. You need a higher DR to have more information in shadows and highlights in _properly exposed_ shots. If you don't expose it right and adjust the exposure in postprocessing, you lose information. It normally matters in landscapes. With a higher DR you also have some room for underexposing in complex light conditions, say in concerts where the light is rapidly changing.

In the tests they push exposure just in order to reveal the information in the shadows to the naked eye and compare it between the sensors. They don't do it to simulate what's normally done in postprocessing.


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## Larsskv (Feb 21, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> What has happened, I think, is that people have focused undue attention on differences in DR without much practical significance.



Which obviously was my point.


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## Larsskv (Feb 21, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Exactly. Abstract numbers on DR charts from review sites don't really matter until you actually work with cameras with different DR. I had an entertaining argument on this forum recently on this matter and I think these discussions happen here quite often.
> 
> I think the statement that 1-2 stop difference in DR 'doesn't matter in most cases' is very misleading, there's so many genres where such a difference doesn't matter at all and there are genres where it matters a lot and quite often. There may be no practical difference at all for some people and a big difference for others.
> 
> ...



Please go to flickr and find a picture taken with a Sony sensor camera, that you wouldn’t be able to get with a 5DIV (single exposure), AND that isn’t processed to death by someone color blind, looking like a mess... such as this:


__
https://flic.kr/p/2evXABV

Those Sony sensor users still beating the DR drum after the 5DIV, and arguably 6D, has a serious lack of arguments for choosing/defending their camera system. 

Sure, some, maybe 1 in a 100, will actually need the DR advantage a D850 gives them. I belong to the people who get by with the DR from a 5D classic 95% of the time.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 21, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> Please go to flickr and find a picture taken with a Sony sensor camera, that you wouldn’t be able to get with a 5DIV (single exposure),



For proper comparison, I'd need to shoot the very same scene at the same moment from the same spot on both 5DIV and Sony, then analyse the RAW files. Images on Flickr may be HDR or exposure blended, they're relatively low resolution and not RAW. 
I know I often push the limits of my 5DIV and I can compare it to the previous Canon cameras I used. It's easy to see by histogram. Normally I shoot landscapes by histogram and I often struggle even with 5DIV.



Larsskv said:


> AND that isn’t processed to death by someone color blind, looking like a mess... such as this:
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/2evXABV



It's an interesting location but a bad photo, there are dust spots and huge lens flare that's quite disturbing, also most likely it's an HDR shot, not a single exposure. Even Nikon D850 wouldn't cope with that dynamic range in one shot. So it's a bad example, not sure what we can prove with it. If you check the latest images in the same profile, you'll find them much better.



Larsskv said:


> Those Sony sensor users still beating the DR drum after the 5DIV, and arguably 6D, has a serious lack of arguments for choosing/defending their camera system.



Again I've been a Canon shooter for many years and I can compare my first DSLR 550D with 5DIV, and also some Canon cameras in between. I'm not totally happy with 5DIV sensor but all in all it works fine for me. It is my personal preference to have at least the same sensor performance in my next camera, based on my experience with Canon - not Sony and Nikon, but with Canon. So I don't really care much how Sony users defend their system, I don't attack them so there's nothing to defend. Neither do I attack Canon users with non-5DIV sensors.



Larsskv said:


> Sure, some, maybe 1 in a 100, will actually need the DR advantage a D850 gives them. I belong to the people who get by with the DR from a 5D classic 95% of the time.



1 in 100 is 1%, but then you're saying about 95%  If 5D classic gives you what you what, there's no point in upgrading perhaps.


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## dtaylor (Feb 21, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> You're making fun of something nobody does.



The "seriousness" of the "DR issue" has been mocked many a time on this forum and on others.



> You don't need a high DR in your camera just so that you can push underexposed images by 5 stops. You need a higher DR to have more information in shadows and highlights in _properly exposed_ shots.



For the record, I was pushing shadows and blending exposures for HDR scenes when the Canon EOS 10D was _a current camera._ My portfolio includes a large number of HDR images including: 
* Bright sky/dark foreground landscapes and seascapes.
* Slot canyon landscapes.
* Real estate interiors. (Less of these versus landscapes but I've done them professionally.)
* Surfing. I bring up surf shots not because they typically blow out a Canon sensor. But you are often near the edge and if you're going to hold white foam and control specular highlights then the main subject ends up in the bottom zones. You have to bring them back up _without destroying_ their faces or black wetsuits with noise.

I just recently made a long post here where I went into what 1-3ev of DR means between shipping sensors, with practical examples. The tl;dr:
* The majority of scenes fit on either sensor type (off versus on chip ADCs).
* The majority of scenes that do not fit on one will not fit on the other.
* In between those two groups there are scenes you can do in one exposure on the newer type of sensor, but really need two on the older type.

That 3rd category doesn't happen nearly as often as portrayed.



> With a higher DR you also have some room for underexposing in complex light conditions, say in concerts where the light is rapidly changing.



What concerts are you shooting at ISO 100? On-chip ADCs help at the lowest ISOs. At high ISOs there's very little difference between on/off chip ADC sensors.



> In the tests they push exposure just in order to reveal the information in the shadows to the naked eye and compare it between the sensors. They don't do it to simulate what's normally done in postprocessing.



The problem with this is that no one stops to ask how applicable such tests are to real world photography. They just get regurgitated on forums as "Canon sensor bad."


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## dtaylor (Feb 21, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> Please go to flickr and find a picture taken with a Sony sensor camera, that you wouldn’t be able to get with a 5DIV (single exposure)...



Anyone who claims that they could is merely revealing that they don't understand this issue. The 5D4 and D8x0 bodies are separated by about 1ev on the shadow side. This doesn't mean that the 5D IV's shadows hit a brick wall. It means they cross an arbitrarily-chosen-for-the-test noise threshold.

If you can do it on the D850, you can do it on a 5D IV with a bit of NR in the shadows. No one, including the staff at DPReview and the staff at DxO, would be able to discern large prints from these cameras based on shadow detail if those prints were post processed at all.

My camera of choice, the 5Ds, is about 2.3ev shy of a D8x0. You can't PP that away. There are scenes that can be processed in one frame on a D8x0 that require two on the 5Ds to get the same shadow detail. But that is a _much more narrow band_ than people who debate DR online seem to realize or accept.


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## dtaylor (Feb 21, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> Please go to flickr and find a picture taken with a Sony sensor camera, that you wouldn’t be able to get with a 5DIV (single exposure), AND that isn’t processed to death by someone color blind, looking like a mess... such as this:
> 
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/2evXABV



I just downloaded the highest resolution file and noticed the big dust (oil?) spots. God that would trigger a good friend of mine with pro Nikon and Fuji kits. He's had oil spot issues on two Nikon bodies. I used to mess with him on shoots by going _"Wait a minute! Before we start I have to do something."_ Then I would just show him the sensor cleaning screen. 

I'm surprised my Canon didn't end up thrown in the ocean 

Side note: he shoots the Fuji more and more even though the D800E has more dynamic range. I'm not even sure if he's noticed or cared about any DR differences. OTOH he has talked extensively about the color science differences.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 21, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> The "seriousness" of the "DR issue" has been mocked many a time on this forum and on others.



There's no DR issue for me. That is, I'm not trying to convince anyone that their camera is crap because of DR or they need to switch to Sony. I've only been telling about my personal preferences and experience. In terms of the Canon roadmap, I'd be happy to see a mirrorless 5Dsr with better DR. It's an important factor for me and I wouldn't like to downgrade in terms of DR.



dtaylor said:


> I just recently made a long post here where I went into what 1-3ev of DR means between shipping sensors, with practical examples. The tl;dr:
> * The majority of scenes fit on either sensor type (off versus on chip ADCs).
> * The majority of scenes that do not fit on one will not fit on the other.
> * In between those two groups there are scenes you can do in one exposure on the newer type of sensor, but really need two on the older type.
> ...



That's probably all true for you, but in my experience, I often see histogram stretched from left to right and with bumps on the very left and the very right sides. I think the 3rd category happens quite often for me. Also higher DR means cleaner shadows even when both cameras compared are within the range. That leaves more room for image manipulation. In the end most or all current Canon FF cameras are 14 bit which sets theoretical limit of 14 stops, but the effective DR is lower because of noise. And when we compare two cameras (e.g. EOS R and RP) on the same scene, I guess we may see roughly the same histogram on both cameras, but the room for manipulation will be much less on RP because of the bigger noise.



dtaylor said:


> What concerts are you shooting at ISO 100? On-chip ADCs help at the lowest ISOs. At high ISOs there's very little difference between on/off chip ADC sensors.



Concerts are generally from ISO 400, and I rarely go above 3200. It hugely depends on the available light. 6DII catches up with 5DIV at about ISO 1600-3200 in terms of DR.


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## dtaylor (Feb 21, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> That's probably all true for you, but in my experience, I often see histogram stretched from left to right and with bumps on the very left and the very right sides. I think the 3rd category happens quite often for me.



You can have an image with a histogram that looks like that and not need a shadow push at all. Depends on the image. 

How often do you have an image that OOC has large areas of Zone 0-1 that have to be opened up into Zones 2-5? How often are you using the exp comp and shadow sliders to push shadows hard to achieve that? How often do you try to use those sliders then give up because of noise? And out of those times, how often would you have not given up on a Sony sensor?

If you're shooting a 5D4 the answer to the last question should be "never" because the 5D4 sensor has on chip ADCs. A 5ev push on the 5D4 looks very much like a 6ev push on a D8x0 body. With a bit of NR work it looks very close +6 to +6. So close that you're not going to tell them apart except while pixel peeping.

So...are you pushing shadows +6ev and then giving up and throwing the RAW away? If so then you're looking at multi exposure HDR techniques or GND filters on any camera. There's no single exposure solution to your situation. Not unless you want to hand process some B&W film for maximum DR.


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## bokehmon22 (Feb 21, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> Recently I got myself a 5D classic to use with Zeiss primes lenses. I have used it quite a lot, and still I haven’t had issues with either noise or lack of dynamic range. Ok, I have avoided putting it in very difficult lighting conditions, BUT, I haven’t had any issue taking the pictures I wanted to make, or from taking a photo worth taking. For most use, I think DR is the most overrated quality in a digital camera. The camera world has been stupified and lost perspective due to the hype around DR.



It depends on your needs. Sony eyeAF wouldn't be a priority for landscape shooter and dynamic range isn't for portrait photographer.

I shoot landscape and has to rely on luminosity mask to get greater dynamic range. I shoot environmental portraits so I can definitely use more clean dynamic range when I can't bracket my shots.

If none of the camera has features you need, save the money and just stick to 5D classic.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 21, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> In fairness the A9's electronic shutter may be perfectly acceptable here. I don't have the hands on time with an A9 to judge this.
> 
> If Sony got the readout times low enough then I would have to retract my "meh" comment.


It reads very fast; about 1/150sec too to bottom. 
It’s slower than an a9’s mechanical shutter moves (roughly 1/300sec top to bottom per imaging-resource), but 2-3 times faster than most electronic shutters (also per imaging-resource).


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## dtaylor (Feb 22, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> It reads very fast; about 1/150sec too to bottom.
> It’s slower than an a9’s mechanical shutter moves (roughly 1/300sec top to bottom per imaging-resource), but 2-3 times faster than most electronic shutters (also per imaging-resource).



So a greater chance of rolling shutter but not by much. Yeah...I'll retract my "meh" comment. There are some caveats to 20 fps on the A9 (lens; e-shutter) but it's still impressive.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 22, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> You can have an image with a histogram that looks like that and not need a shadow push at all. Depends on the image.



It depends, but it doesn't mean I don't need it.



dtaylor said:


> How often do you have an image that OOC has large areas of Zone 0-1 that have to be opened up into Zones 2-5? How often are you using the exp comp and shadow sliders to push shadows hard to achieve that? How often do you try to use those sliders then give up because of noise? And out of those times, how often would you have not given up on a Sony sensor?



I'm not very familiar with the zone system. I know how it was used in good old film days, but I'm not thinking in terms of zones. For landscapes, I use full manual mode and in-camera histogram. The histogram tells me all I need to know about future postprocessing of the image.



dtaylor said:


> If you're shooting a 5D4 the answer to the last question should be "never" because the 5D4 sensor has on chip ADCs. A 5ev push on the 5D4 looks very much like a 6ev push on a D8x0 body. With a bit of NR work it looks very close +6 to +6. So close that you're not going to tell them apart except while pixel peeping.



5DIV is clean enough. Earlier sensors show noise in the shadows and even mid-tones without pushing anything. The older the sensor is, the more noise it shows. Not a big deal, but again 5DIV is cleaner. When you start lifting shadows, the noise amplifies.



dtaylor said:


> So...are you pushing shadows +6ev and then giving up and throwing the RAW away? If so then you're looking at multi exposure HDR techniques or GND filters on any camera. There's no single exposure solution to your situation. Not unless you want to hand process some B&W film for maximum DR.



I'm pushing shadows sometimes a lot in night/astro-landscapes, not sure if it's 6 stops though. 
But again you don't need to push shadows that far in order to hit the limits of the sensors. It's just that older sensors are noisier in general and they leave less room for manipulation. Low DR, in fact, is only a consequence of noise.


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## dtaylor (Feb 23, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Earlier sensors show noise in the shadows and even mid-tones without pushing anything.



Not in excess of what would be expected for the generation of chip. ADC architecture impacts very deep shadows, not mid-tones. Whether or not a sensor has on/off chip ADCs is invisible until you push shadows more than 2ev. I'm not aware of Canon ever having a problem with noise in normal shadows or mid-tones versus the same generation from other manufacturers.



> I'm pushing shadows sometimes a lot in night/astro-landscapes, not sure if it's 6 stops though.



I doubt you're shooting those at 100 and no sensor can handle a 6 stop push at, say, 800 or 3200. On/off chip ADCs also do not matter very much by that point.



> But again you don't need to push shadows that far in order to hit the limits of the sensors. It's just that older sensors are noisier in general and they leave less room for manipulation. Low DR, in fact, is only a consequence of noise.



Low(er) DR is a consequence of a _specific type of noise_ caused by a specific architecture decision.

Sorry to nitpick, but I hate generalizations like this because they wind up being "Canon sensor bad" and "Sony sensor good." Case in point: in another thread discussing the RP I pointed out that 6D2 (and by extension RP) high ISO is much better than A72 high ISO and not too far off A73 high ISO. I got called out on that because "Canon sensor old" and "Canon sensor bad" and "Canon sensor reused" and "Canon low DR"...until I posted an example. The A7 sensors...all three generations...have a superior ADC architecture. But the 6D2 sensor architecture is superior in other ways to the first two generations.


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## Quarkcharmed (Feb 23, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Not in excess of what would be expected for the generation of chip. ADC architecture impacts very deep shadows, not mid-tones. Whether or not a sensor has on/off chip ADCs is invisible until you push shadows more than 2ev. I'm not aware of Canon ever having a problem with noise in normal shadows or mid-tones versus the same generation from other manufacturers.



I'm not actually comparing Canon sensors to other manufacturers. I was comparing old Canon sensors to the best Canon ones in terms of DR (5DIV/EOS R).

As a side note, the noise, as far as I understand, affects the whole tonal range, however the signal becomes stronger in the mid-tones so the noise is less noticeable. But on older Canon cameras you can see this fine noisy grain even in mid-tones. The noise isn't awfully bad but it's there, you can see it. It probably exists in 5DIV images too, but not really perceptible. It can be revealed if you push dehaze and/or clarity to 100. 
Shadow recovery on 5DIV is clean, but the shadows from the old sensors (e.g. 5DII) can't be pushed too far, they start producing unacceptable luminosity and colour noise from 2-3 stops. And it's the same 14 bit for many years - but ADC becomes less noisy.



dtaylor said:


> Sorry to nitpick, but I hate generalizations like this because they wind up being "Canon sensor bad" and "Sony sensor good." Case in point: in another thread discussing the RP I pointed out that 6D2 (and by extension RP) high ISO is much better than A72 high ISO and not too far off A73 high ISO. I got called out on that because "Canon sensor old" and "Canon sensor bad" and "Canon sensor reused" and "Canon low DR"...until I posted an example. The A7 sensors...all three generations...have a superior ADC architecture. But the 6D2 sensor architecture is superior in other ways to the first two generations.



I never said Canon was bad compared to Sony or bad on its own. What I was saying, I didn't feel RP meets my expectations in terms of DR. I'm ok with 5DIV and I'd expect an improvement in terms of DR from a new prospective R camera. I haven't had 6DII, but I played with its sample raw files and no, I wouldn't like to downgrade from 5DIV even as a secondary camera.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 23, 2019)

Larsskv said:


> Which obviously was my point.


I don’t think it was obvious, but I’ll agree with the sentiment.


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