# Here are the Canon EOS R7 and Canon EOS R10



## [email protected] (May 23, 2022)

> In the next 24 hours, Canon will announce both the Canon EOS R7 and Canon EOS R10, the first APS-C sensor RF mount cameras from Canon.
> Along with the new cameras, Canon will also announce the Canon RF-S 18-45mm f/4.5-6.3 IS STM and the Canon RF-S 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM.
> Canon EOS R7 Specications
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Chaitanya (May 23, 2022)

Mockup posted here for leaked specs were pretty accurate.


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## HMC11 (May 23, 2022)

It looks like about the same size as the RP? So not quite as small as the M5 but could possibly compete in the same market if RF-S lenses are small and light enough.


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## Bob Howland (May 23, 2022)

Another rumor website has quoted dimensions. They seem reasonable except that the depth (front-rear) of both cameras seems about 10mm too large.

I wonder if the R10 will be the basis for an M10 or the M-system is truly dying.


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## lote82 (May 23, 2022)

Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like the R7 has no integrated flash anymore


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## Chaitanya (May 23, 2022)

HMC11 said:


> It looks like about the same size as the RP? So not quite as small as the M5 but could possibly compete in the same market if RF-S lenses are small and light enough.


There are photos of 2 kit lenses in OP. 18-45mm is collapsible lens and 18-150mm is quite smaller compared to Ef-s 18-135mm lens.


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## Maximilian (May 23, 2022)

Pics look interesting.

Something I don't get:
That AF/MF switch on the front side. I wouldn't want to have it there.
Why there? Why at all?
If it isn't on the RF-S lenses anymore, then make it SW in the camera menu.


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## Maximilian (May 23, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> There are photos of 2 kit lenses in OP. 18-45mm is collapsible lens and 18-150mm is quite smaller compared to Ef-s 18-135mm lens.


At least for that 18-150 I would expect similar in-body SW corrections like Canon did before with the RF. So that could lead to the smaller size, too.


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## pzyber (May 23, 2022)

I wouldn't be surprised if these will replace the R and the RP.


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## -pekr- (May 23, 2022)

F*in' boring and repeating designs - where's the M6 II design successor?


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## Maximilian (May 23, 2022)

-pekr- said:


> F*in' boring and repeating designs - where's the M6 II design successor?


Dead?


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Why there? Why at all?
> If it isn't on the RF-S lenses anymore, then make it SW in the camera menu.


I believe there are also some small RF lenses such as the 50mm/1.8 that lack an AF/MF switch. I guess the introduction of the body switch might mean other such lenses will come in the future. I hope the function of the switch will be customizable though.


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

I guess the smaller size and different ergonomics aren't great news to many 7D shooters who might have wished for more parity with the R5/R6, the way the 7D2 is almost identical to the 5D3/4.


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## Blue Zurich (May 23, 2022)

The R7 specs were CR3 and this mockup post has no rating. The specs and body style don't jive imho. Especially that dial to the right of the vf and the D pad. Oh and MF/AF switch being physical and in the front as others have chimed in about. Not buying it. The R10, sure, I get that.


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## AlP (May 23, 2022)

The lenses are tapered, so they will have a smaller diameter than the cheaper RF 50 and RF 16.
That 18-150 looks very similar to the EF-M 18-150 both in overall size and "look" from the front, but it seems like it has larger maximum magnification (see post on Digicame-info), so maybe a slightly different design.

Still surprised on how good the "mock-ups" were, assuming that the images leaked today are those of the real cameras, of course. The R7 mock-up even showed that new rear dial sticking out from the backside of the camera. Only the right side of the camera (seen from the front) was different, (maybe to avoid issues with those images?).
I do agree with previous posters that some details seem a bit off, we'll know very soon


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## Chaitanya (May 23, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> I guess the smaller size and different ergonomics aren't great news to many 7D shooters who might have wished for more parity with the R5/R6, the way the 7D2 is almost identical to the 5D3/4.


Only good thing I see is the placement of joystick and main control dial on rear panel.


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## John Wilde (May 23, 2022)

For comparison: (W X H X D)

R10 Size: 122.5 X 87.8 X 83.4mm
M50 Size: 116.3 x 88.1 x 58.7mm
R6 Size: 138 x 97.5 x 88.4mm


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## Chaitanya (May 23, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> I believe there are also some small RF lenses such as the 50mm/1.8 that lack an AF/MF switch. I guess the introduction of the body switch might mean other such lenses will come in the future. I hope the function of the switch will be customizable though.


Those RF lenses have a switch to select what the ring on lens did(Control/Focus) from the leaked photos of lenses these new lenses dont even have that option so I guess another dive into menu for users of these lenses to select Function of control ring though now they have physical selector switch for AF/MF.


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## lote82 (May 23, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> For comparison: (W X H X D)
> 
> R10 Size: 122.5 X 87.8 X 83.4mm
> M50 Size: 116.3 x 88.1 x 58.7mm


So what? Is Canon doo*** again?


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## tbgtomcom (May 23, 2022)

I still think the R10 will be the new Rebel series.


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## SHAMwow (May 23, 2022)

Hopefully canon has a trick up their sleeve with that joystick. It’s gotta have some new functionality. But I also wouldn’t be surprised. I’ve long said 7D users should be looking at the R6. Really curious now. Either gonna be a game changer or a flop I feel.


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## [email protected] (May 23, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> The R7 specs were CR3 and this mockup post has no rating. The specs and body style don't jive imho. Especially that dial to the right of the vf and the D pad. Oh and MF/AF switch being physical and in the front as others have chimed in about. Not buying it. The R10, sure, I get that.


I can't tell you how confident I am about this rumor/leak, so wouldn't make up a guess. This is the forum (and the format in which) Nokishita started posting after the twitter feed was taken down. That said, this means that someone could spoof that deliberately. I agree that the dial on the R7 is super weird, but to me that is an indication of greater likelihood of accuracy, as it's not something a person would include if they were trying to convince others it was real.

The MF/AF switch makes more sense to me as a body switch than a lens switch, as with lens switches, you need to learn a different position for each lens. I actually don't care personally, as I use back-button focus, so it's not really relevant (as do many 7D series users).


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## vangelismm (May 23, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> There are photos of 2 kit lenses in OP. 18-45mm is collapsible lens and 18-150mm is quite smaller compared to Ef-s 18-135mm lens.


Smaller as the ef-m 18-150, if not the same lens.


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

Honestly, the rear dial being around the joystick is certainly an unorthodox solution, but probably ergonomically better than its traditional position. Especially on a smaller body that couldn't fit the 5D7/7D style large dial.

BTW, I'm interested to see what buttons there are on the right shoulder of the R7, next to the mode dial. Lock and Record, maybe?

Also, I'm rather disappointed by the 2.36Mdot EVF on the R7. It's not very much for a 2022 supposed prosumer camera.


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## JustUs7 (May 23, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> The R7 specs were CR3 and this mockup post has no rating. The specs and body style don't jive imho. Especially that dial to the right of the vf and the D pad. Oh and MF/AF switch being physical and in the front as others have chimed in about. Not buying it. The R10, sure, I get that.


My understanding is these are not mock-ups. These are leaked images of the actual camera bodies.


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## Bishop80 (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Pics look interesting.
> 
> Something I don't get:
> That AF/MF switch on the front side. I wouldn't want to have it there.
> ...


If the photo is valid, then I guess Canon disagrees on the need for one and location.

When you want or need to go to MF in a hurry, there's nothing better than a physical button or switch. Somewhere, anywhere.

There are EF-M lenses with no AF/MF switch, but the M6 Mark II for example provides a handy AF/MF instead right on the back of the body to control it.


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## JustUs7 (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Pics look interesting.
> 
> Something I don't get:
> That AF/MF switch on the front side. I wouldn't want to have it there.
> ...


I find it to be great placement. Easily reachable with a middle finger. On body switch without having to look at a menu or find it on the lens is a great feature of the M6MKII. I think users of these camera will appreciate. Particularly since RF-S lenses don’t appear to have a lens switch. And some RF lenses share a focus/control ring forcing a menu dive on the RP to change from AF to MF and have peaking available.

At first glance, the RF-S lenses don’t appear to have a switch to change from focus to control. I’m wondering if they are repackaged M optics that had to change slightly due to the sensor distance.


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2022)

Bishop80 said:


> There are EF-M lenses with no AF/MF switch, but the M6 Mark II for example provides a handy AF/MF instead right on the back of the body to control it.


I was using my M6 recently, for the first time in a while, and apparently I had inadvertently set it to MF by pressing the left side of the D-pad.


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## bergstrom (May 23, 2022)

so, don't even go near the R10 as it has the crap E-17 battery. Did they not learn from the RP. Jeez!


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## bergstrom (May 23, 2022)

actually the R7 has no wheel, so don't buy that either. I mean seriously, someone at Canon R&D needs their head banged off a wall and see if sense can get through.


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## lote82 (May 23, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> actually the R7 has no wheel, so don't buy that either. I mean seriously, someone at Canon R&D needs their head banged off a wall and see if sense can get through.


You should stop hurting your brain and take a closer look ... it has a wheel!


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## bergstrom (May 23, 2022)

pzyber said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if these will replace the R and the RP.




Nope, because these are crop ones


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## pauloancarvalho (May 23, 2022)

The more impressive thing to me is that the R10 will do 4k50 and 1080p120. Anyway, as a Canon EOS R and R5 C owner, I'm not interested in any of these models, I think the Canon R5 or R6 might be a better choice for me to go along with the R5 C when the the need for a 3rd body comes solely for the fact the smallrig cages and battery grip with be compatible between camera bodies. I was hoping the R7 would be using the same body as the R6/R5 for that reason, too bad it doesn't, looks like a fantastic video camera.


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## bergstrom (May 23, 2022)

lote82 said:


> You should stop hurting your brain and take a closer look ... it has a wheel!



Its round, but its not a wheel.


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## blackcoffee17 (May 23, 2022)

I'm wondering if the R10 will have full width 4K in decent quality and with DP AF? Probably not but the Digic X gives me hope.


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## blackcoffee17 (May 23, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> Its round, but its not a wheel.



It looks like a wheel because has ridges around it.


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## H. Jones (May 23, 2022)

The aperture wheel is encircling around the AF joystick on the R7. That's what that is, full stop. 

It's a very interesting design choice that I never saw coming, but in the case of a smaller body like this, I could see it actually being successful as it means you can control both aperture and AF point without moving your thumb, which may actually be a pretty solid option for someone photographing fast action and wildlife. 

If it turns out to be horrible, well, just disable it and use the secondary top dial. I totally get the design choice on a smaller body, though. Some of those smaller cameras with the aperture wheels so far down the camera make you loosen your entire grip just to reach it.


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## Exploreshootshare (May 23, 2022)

Really love the R5 ergonomics, but it is too expensive. 
I hoped for an R7 with those same ergonomics, but now I'll just wait and see what's to come. The new dial looks a bit a strange, but also happy to test new controls. I even get along with the Touch Bar of the EOS R very well, so I'm optimistic the dial will help navigate more quickly.

An MF/ AF switch sounds great because I hate going through the menu to switch it. (e.g. with the RF 16mm). Just don't know if I like the placement of this button.


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## RayValdez360 (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Pics look interesting.
> 
> Something I don't get:
> That AF/MF switch on the front side. I wouldn't want to have it there.
> ...


Anyone doing events or fast paced run and gun jobs know that menu diving causes you to miss moments. I rather have as much buttons on the camera body as conveniently as possible


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## lote82 (May 23, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> Its round, but its not a wheel.


As already someone stated ... it's around the joystick and not where you (probably) expected it to be


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## m4ndr4ke (May 23, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> Those RF lenses have a switch to select what the ring on lens did(Control/Focus) from the leaked photos of lenses these new lenses dont even have that option so I guess another dive into menu for users of these lenses to select Function of control ring though now they have physical selector switch for AF/MF.


Those RF lenses have a switch to choose if the ring will be used for manual focus or for a customisable function, but not to pick between MF and AF.
Selecting between MF and AF already requires using the menu, so that switch on the body looks useful.
@Chaitanya customising the control ring function always required using the menu, and by default it is disabled.


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## btruo292 (May 23, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> Mockup posted here for leaked specs were pretty accurate.


I just went back and looked at the canon rumor mockups. Almost identical wow! Good job canon rumors!


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

H. Jones said:


> If it turns out to be horrible, well, just disable it and use the secondary top dial.


Agree with your post otherwise, but I don't think the R7 has a secondary top dial. Only the mode dial, the shutter button-adjacent dial ("main dial" in Canon parlance) and the rear dial around the joystick ("quick control dial"). In place of a dial there's the power switch and seemingly a couple of buttons.


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## BuffaloBird (May 23, 2022)

I really hope these pics are just mockups. The R7 design and controls look horrifying. If this is actually the final design, then this is a hard pass from me! Not at all a continuation of the past 7D line in usability and a huge step backwards.

Again, hoping these photos are nonsense.


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## H. Jones (May 23, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> Agree with your post otherwise, but I don't think the R7 has a secondary top dial. Only the mode dial, the shutter button-adjacent dial ("main dial" in Canon parlance) and the rear dial around the joystick ("quick control dial"). In place of a dial there's the power switch and seemingly a couple of buttons.


Hm, looking at it again, you might be right. The "power switch" stood out as a second top dial to me, it's in the right place, but it looks notched which does imply a power switch. 

Not sure what to make of that--even the R10 has a second top dial, which is odd if it's gone on the R7. I'd like to believe they fit it in somewhere, maybe the mode dial can be customized as a top dial? Otherwise, I guess reframing my original post, people can use the lens control ring for that.


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## xelaq (May 23, 2022)

Phew, that R7 design... well she ain't a looker, that's for sure. Curious about the R10 specs. I am still salty about my M5, but I don't hold a grudge. Let's go Canon! Price the R10 nicely and we might be friends again.


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## Maverick Inverted (May 23, 2022)

The R7 wheel kind of looks like it has a touch sensitive surface between the ridged perimeter and the joystick? If true, I wonder how that would be utilized.


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

H. Jones said:


> Not sure what to make of that--even the R10 has a second top dial, which is odd if it's gone on the R7.


I'd wager the R10 lacks a rear dial instead, so the second top dial _is_ the quick control dial. Same layout as the RP, except the power switch is moved from the left shoulder to somewhere else. My guess is it takes the place of the RP's "Lock" switch.


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## Maximilian (May 23, 2022)

JustUs7 said:


> I find it to be great placement. ...





RayValdez360 said:


> Anyone doing events or fast passed run and gun jobs know that menu diving causes you to miss moments. I rather have as much buttons on the camera body as conveniently as possible


Especially at a position where you manipulate it accidentally? I would so at that position.


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## Maximilian (May 23, 2022)

Bishop80 said:


> When you want or need to go to MF in a hurry, there's nothing better than a physical button or switch. Somewhere, anywhere.


I never wanted to go to MF or back to AF "in a hurry".
MF takes accurate operation and therefore time. Esp. when you focus by wire, which I suppose is implemented in most STM lenses. And I guess RF-S mostly have STM AF.


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## bergstrom (May 23, 2022)

blackcoffee17 said:


> It looks like a wheel because has ridges around it.



and it can spin?


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## mpb001 (May 23, 2022)

What I find a bit strange is the rather low EVF resolution. I thought that we were pretty much moved on to like 3.69 mil dot


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## jam05 (May 23, 2022)

John Wilde said:


> For comparison: (W X H X D)
> 
> R10 Size: 122.5 X 87.8 X 83.4mm
> M50 Size: 116.3 x 88.1 x 58.7mm
> R6 Size: 138 x 97.5 x 88.4mm


M6 mk II is 120mm x 70mm x 49mm. R10 won't replace that by a long shot


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## jam05 (May 23, 2022)

The Canon M6 mk II is 408gms and 120 x 60 x 49mm. With no EVF protruding to the rear. The R10 isn't going to replace that camera on a gimbal. Won't be a one to one swap out.


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## Bishop80 (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> I never wanted to go to MF or back to AF "in a hurry".


Which may be why you don't see the need for a physical MF/AF button.



Maximilian said:


> MF takes accurate operation and therefore time...


No it doesn't, not always. I think there are simply too many scenarios and subjects in the world across millions of shooters to make a generalization like that.


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## jam05 (May 23, 2022)

The R10 may be a Rebel replacement. However not an M6 mk II replacement at all with that size and EVF hump.


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## The3o5FlyGuy (May 23, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> Continue reading...





anyone else see this? they deleted it


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## Maverick Inverted (May 23, 2022)

Maverick Inverted said:


> The R7 wheel kind of looks like it has a touch sensitive surface between the ridged perimeter and the joystick? If true, I wonder how that would be utilized.


Maybe it's a dial within a dial? So you'd have two controls with different tactile feels in the same spot. So, aperture, exposure comp, and AF joystick right under your thumb.


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## jam05 (May 23, 2022)

They weren't shy about making the EVF protrude way out the rear of the body. Have fun calibrating the pitch on a compact gimbal with that one. CR can predict an M6 replacement again in the next decade.


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## Sporgon (May 23, 2022)

pzyber said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if these will replace the R and the RP.


I would.


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## fox40phil (May 23, 2022)

Why... Canon.... why no just a R6 body with R7 sensor and mechanics.... this is garbage.


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## Maximilian (May 23, 2022)

Bishop80 said:


> Which may be why you don't see the need for a physical MF/AF button.
> ...
> No it doesn't, not always. I think there are simply too many scenarios and subjects in the world across millions of shooters to make a generalization like that.


But am I allowed to make a generalization about MF and focus by wire with STM?

I wish you much fun with "focus by wire" in YOUR hurry scenario


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## EOS 4 Life (May 23, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> so, don't even go near the R10 as it has the crap E-17 battery. Did they not learn from the RP. Jeez!


I think it may share its body with the RP


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## Berowne (May 23, 2022)

Will the R7 have a new 32 Mp BSI-Sensor?


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## RayValdez360 (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Especially at a position where you manipulate it accidentally? I would so at that position.


Its called learning the layout and muscle memory. Get used to it my guy.


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## AlanF (May 23, 2022)

RayValdez360 said:


> Its called learning the layout and muscle memory. Get used to it my guy.


Accidents happen outside of muscle memory - that's why they are called accidents.


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## blackcoffee17 (May 23, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I think it may share its body with the RP



It cannot share the body with the RP because it looks totally different.


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## fastprime (May 23, 2022)

tbgtomcom said:


> I still think the R10 will be the new Rebel series.


With the built in flash, it's very much a mirrorless rebel, and not an M6 successor.

Are we thinking the RF-S glass will be able to mount on FF RF mounts or will it be crop only?


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## tbgtomcom (May 23, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> so, don't even go near the R10 as it has the crap E-17 battery. Did they not learn from the RP. Jeez!


Well if the R10 is the mirrorless Rebel then I don't see a problem here.


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2022)

fastprime said:


> Are we thinking the RF-S glass will be able to mount on FF RF mounts or will it be crop only?


Given that the registration mark on the body mount is the same as on FF RF bodies, the RF-S lenses will mount on FF R bodies and the body will automatically switch to crop mode, just as when an EF-S lens is mounted via the adapter.


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## chrisrmueller (May 23, 2022)

Very interesting. I was really hoping for the R7 to be a crop sensor in an R5 body. Was hoping to get the R7 as a backup but I feel like my muscle memory would be thrown off. It almost looks like an R with a touch dial (like early iPods) instead of a touch bar. Where are all the buttons?


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## tbgtomcom (May 23, 2022)

fastprime said:


> With the built in flash, it's very much a mirrorless rebel, and not an M6 successor.
> 
> Are we thinking the RF-S glass will be able to mount on FF RF mounts or will it be crop only?


That's an interesting question. Maybe... but you would be reduced on image resolution I'm sure. since it's only designed to target a smaller sensor size.


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## Maverick Inverted (May 23, 2022)

chrisrmueller said:


> Very interesting. I was really hoping for the R7 to be a crop sensor in an R5 body. Was hoping to get the R7 as a backup but I feel like my muscle memory would be thrown off. It almost looks like an R with a touch dial (like early iPods) instead of a touch bar. Where are all the buttons?


I'm with you...that plastic looks too shiny. I think they are up to something.


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## Bishop80 (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> But am I allowed to make a generalization about MF and focus by wire with STM?
> 
> I wish you much fun with "focus by wire" in YOUR hurry scenario


I think Canon makes physical buttons and switches for a) convenience/ease of access to commonly-used functions, or b) for speed, where digging into a menu would result in a missed shot or due to the operator losing track of a subject.

Maybe your viewpoint is that no one can focus quickly and precisely with focus by wire. I'm just saying that is a broad claim.


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## Jasonmc89 (May 23, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Another rumor website has quoted dimensions. They seem reasonable except that the depth (front-rear) of both cameras seems about 10mm too large.
> 
> I wonder if the R10 will be the basis for an M10 or the M-system is truly dying.


Dying.


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## -pekr- (May 23, 2022)

Bishop80 said:


> If the photo is valid, then I guess Canon disagrees on the need for one and location.
> 
> When you want or need to go to MF in a hurry, there's nothing better than a physical button or switch. Somewhere, anywhere.
> 
> There are EF-M lenses with no AF/MF switch, but the M6 Mark II for example provides a handy AF/MF instead right on the back of the body to control it.



I am very sensitive to the design. And also well aware that design is a highly subjective matter. But this front camera AF/MF button is really ugly. If I should suffer such a design, please finish me with the inclusion of the print button


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## jeffa4444 (May 23, 2022)

If and it’s still if these are authentic pictures of the R7 & R10 then the R7 looks like it may also have the same mechanical shutter that covers the sensor when you power off thats on the EOS R, R5 & R6. The aperture looks full frame but the sensor APS-C.


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## Maximilian (May 23, 2022)

Bishop80 said:


> Maybe your viewpoint is that no one can focus quickly and precisely with focus by wire. I'm just saying that is a broad claim.


Can you? Have you ever tried out STM lens? Have you ever done focus by wire?
I have! With several different lenses! 
And from this experience I can tell you that the limiting factor was not me.


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## Maximilian (May 23, 2022)

RayValdez360 said:


> Its called learning the layout and muscle memory. Get used to it my guy.


you better get used to ergonomic design. 
Have you ever had a T-90 in your hands before? (I have)
That was the time when these ergonomics started.
And it's ergonomics to serve the user and not the "muscle memory" to serve ergonomics layout.
Get used to good design you guy.


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## Bishop80 (May 23, 2022)

-pekr- said:


> I am very sensitive to the design. And also well aware that design is a highly subjective matter. But this front camera AF/MF button is really ugly. If I should suffer such a design, please finish me with the inclusion of the print button


Reminded me of


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## byjohnburns (May 23, 2022)

I'd have been all over either camera if they took the A7C approach with a flat top to make it as compact as possible. That's what the R lineup is missing IMO - something you can throw in an everyday sling bag like a Leica or X100V. The M6 line was great for that purpose. Given the body design of these I'll probably look elsewhere for an ultra-compact setup.


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## Andreasb (May 23, 2022)

IF these mockups are correct, then its not a 7DMKII replacement, It would have looked more like an R6. This looks more low end and smaller, looks cheaper in price. How's the AF system will be my first question, buffer second, customizability third , electronic shutter speed 4th. Low end viewfinder with blackout? ssssss........

As for the buttons and layout, mf/af button I dont care maybe the button can be reprogrammed? In the back is where it starts looking different: On/off button on the right side? As an old Nikon user all I can say is finally! Have Canon moved the scroll wheel up to the joystick? Interesting that's a closer find with my thumb then currently on the r5/6, I could maybe like that. One scroll wheel on the back top right missing, BOOOOO! The proof will be in the pudding here, will look at first reviews before I decide to buy


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

jeffa4444 said:


> If and it’s still if these are authentic pictures of the R7 & R10 then the R7 looks like it may also have the same mechanical shutter that covers the sensor when you power off thats on the EOS R, R5 & R6. The aperture looks full frame but the sensor APS-C.


The aperture is larger (not FF large though) to allow for IBIS sensor movement. The R10 lacks IBIS.


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## fastprime (May 23, 2022)

byjohnburns said:


> I'd have been all over either camera if they took the A7C approach with a flat top to make it as compact as possible. That's what the R lineup is missing IMO - something you can throw in an everyday sling bag like a Leica or X100V. The M6 line was great for that purpose. Given the body design of these I'll probably look elsewhere for an ultra-compact setup.


Would love to see Canon's answer to the A7C.


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## ata bora (May 23, 2022)

Discover the Canon EOS R7 with Rudy Winston​


----------



## Bishop80 (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Can you? Have you ever tried out STM lens? Have you ever done focus by wire?
> I have! With several different lenses?
> And from this experience I can tell you that the limiting factor was not me.


OK, we obviously disagree on the usefulness of a physical switch for AF/MF. I'm sharing my viewpoint, which differs from yours.

Do I use it constantly? No. But as several others have already commented similarly, when you need or want MF in a hurry, it's nice to have a switch. That's it. No big conspiracy. Canon made a physical switch either because people use it frequently, or because people want to access it quickly.

I think, if I'm understanding correctly, your point is that no one will need or want to jump to MF mode quickly because a focus-by-wire STM lens is too slow and unresponsive to.... what? Do you know what shot they were about to take?

If you haven't found it useful, that's ok.


----------



## Bob Howland (May 23, 2022)

ata bora said:


> Discover the Canon EOS R7 with Rudy Winston​


Thank you! Looks like my 7D is being replaced, assuming the price isn't too "Canon-typical."


----------



## AlanF (May 23, 2022)

ata bora said:


> Discover the Canon EOS R7 with Rudy Winston​


Looks very nice! Count me in. But what does 1.6x extra telephoto coverage mean? Focal length remains the same and the field of view coverage gets less, not more.


----------



## JustUs7 (May 23, 2022)

ata bora said:


> Discover the Canon EOS R7 with Rudy Winston​


But it needs to be bigger and have more buttons! And a top LCD!


----------



## Bob Howland (May 23, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Looks very nice! Count me in. But what does 1.6x extra telephoto coverage mean? Focal length remains the same and the field of view coverage gets less, not more.


Back when crop sensors were new, people insisted on thinking of them as telephoto extenders. It took years to convince them that it was actually a sensor crop. Apparently Canon has decided to resurrect the unfortunate terminology.


----------



## AlanF (May 23, 2022)

I hope you can choose less than 30 fps in electronic and 15 in mechanical.


----------



## AlanF (May 23, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Back when crop sensors were new, people insisted on thinking of them as telephoto extenders. It took years to convince them that it was actually a sensor crop. Apparently Canon has decided to resurrect the unfortunately terminology.


It's very misleading. The extra reach vis-a-vis the R5 is only 1.4x since the R5 has 45 Mpx FF vs 32.5 on the R7. Against an 83 Mpx that presumably will come out in the future, it will be the same. We will need wide telephoto lenses to take full advantage of the 32.5 Mpx.


----------



## bergstrom (May 23, 2022)

tbgtomcom said:


> Well if the R10 is the mirrorless Rebel then I don't see a problem here.



yeah but God, get rid of that lp e17


----------



## bergstrom (May 23, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I think it may share its body with the RP



yep, rp should have a proper rotating wheel too


----------



## bbasiaga (May 23, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Looks very nice! Count me in. But what does 1.6x extra telephoto coverage mean? Focal length remains the same and the field of view coverage gets less, not more.


Crop sensors are usually higher pixel density than FF sensors. Therefore, even though the field of view is smaller, there are more 'pixels per duck' on a crop sensor than a FF. The reaultimg image, when viewed at the same PPI will appear larger when taken with the same lens on an APSC sensor camera. And therefore it looks like it was taken with a longer lens. This is the 'reach' factor people talk about. 

It's actually related to pixel density and not crop factor. But the marketing does not make that clear. The reach advantage goes to zero when the pixel density is the same on both the FF and APSc sensor you are comparing. For example, the R5 would have about 17mpx when cropped to apsc size, and any apsc camera that was also 17mpx would have no reach advantage. The R7 would be roughly co.parable to a 80-90mp FF sensors sor for pixel density.


----------



## xelaq (May 23, 2022)

Eriknoteric said:


> It looks like there are only two dials on the body. To me it appears that there is only an on off switch above the af on button
> 
> I'm definitely hoping that these images are all renderings of the r10. It doesn’t make sense to me that they would give the r7 different ergonomics than the R6/5. It also looks to me that the aperture dial above the af on button is an on/off switch and not a dial. I think it would be a deal breaker for me if there are only 2 dials like on the R.
> 
> ...


Watch the video(s) above mate - it seems that this is indeed the R7. I am not quite sure where to place it. Does not seem to target the same crowd as the 7D bodywise - more like a new repackaged 90D.


----------



## AlanF (May 23, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> Crop sensors are usually higher pixel density than FF sensors. Therefore, even though the field of view is smaller, there are more 'pixels per duck' on a crop sensor than a FF. The reaultimg image, when viewed at the same PPI will appear larger when taken with the same lens on an APSC sensor camera. And therefore it looks like it was taken with a longer lens. This is the 'reach' factor people talk about.
> 
> It's actually related to pixel density and not crop factor. But the marketing does not make that clear. The reach advantage goes to zero when the pixel density is the same on both the FF and APSc sensor you are comparing. For example, the R5 would have about 17mpx when cropped to apsc size, and any apsc camera that was also 17mpx would have no reach advantage. The R7 would be roughly co.parable to a 80-90mp FF sensors sor for pixel density.


I wrote that a few posts ago.



AlanF said:


> It's very misleading. The extra reach vis-a-vis the R5 is only 1.4x since the R5 has 45 Mpx FF vs 32.5 on the R7. Against an 83 Mpx that presumably will come out in the future, it will be the same. We will need wide telephoto lenses to take full advantage of the 32.5 Mpx.


----------



## Maximilian (May 23, 2022)

Bishop80 said:


> OK, we obviously disagree on the usefulness of a physical switch for AF/MF. I'm sharing my viewpoint, which differs from yours.
> …


Of course, Canon designed this lever at that position for a certain reason: it is a good position for the majority of testers.
And maybe for you, too.
Maybe I am the minority in finding that position bad, but together with focus by wire I just don‘t get it.

And I come from the point of view, that I can do MF since I was using my fathers FTb


----------



## pauloancarvalho (May 23, 2022)

ata bora said:


> Discover the Canon EOS R7 with Rudy Winston​


Looks a great camera, what do you think the price's? If its like 1100$-1200$ maybe I'll consider it. If it's 1500$ or more I don't see a point of getting a Canon R6 instead. We'll know very soon anyway.


----------



## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> BTW, I'm interested to see what buttons there are on the right shoulder of the R7, next to the mode dial. Lock and Record, maybe?


Ah, based on the video it's _ISO _and Record, which makes sense. No dedicated Lock toggle, then?


----------



## ata bora (May 23, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Thank you! Looks like my 7D is being replaced, assuming the price isn't too "Canon-typical."





AlanF said:


> Looks very nice! Count me in. But what does 1.6x extra telephoto coverage mean? Focal length remains the same and the field of view coverage gets less, not more.



You're welcome. This short video was added 3 hours ago but was not available. I'll wait about an hour and check again.  However, it is not live at the moment. I think it was added by mistake


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## Stig Nygaard (May 23, 2022)

For those who didn't see the video before it goes/went private, here's what I got:

15mechanical/30electronic shutter
1/320 flash sync
focus bracketing
4K/60 uncropped
4K/30 oversampled from 7K
Canon Log 3, 10bit 4-2-2, timecode, no 30min limit
Full-HD/120

Mostly disappointed about the EVF spec. Especially if it doesn't have a highspeed mode (100 or 120fps), which I kind of suspect it won't have :-(


----------



## pauloancarvalho (May 23, 2022)

ata bora said:


> You're welcome. This short video was added 3 hours ago but was not available. I'll wait about an hour and check again.  However, it is not live at the moment. I think it was added by mistake


There were some comments on the video already. I commented asking if the R7 does overheat in video.


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> Crop sensors are usually higher pixel density than FF sensors. Therefore, even though the field of view is smaller, there are more 'pixels per duck' on a crop sensor than a FF. The reaultimg image, when viewed at the same PPI will appear larger when taken with the same lens on an APSC sensor camera. And therefore it looks like it was taken with a longer lens. This is the 'reach' factor people talk about.
> 
> It's actually related to pixel density and not crop factor. But the marketing does not make that clear. The reach advantage goes to zero when the pixel density is the same on both the FF and APSc sensor you are comparing. For example, the R5 would have about 17mpx when cropped to apsc size, and any apsc camera that was also 17mpx would have no reach advantage. The R7 would be roughly co.parable to a 80-90mp FF sensors sor for pixel density.


With no disrespect to @AlanF, there’s an old expression about teaching your grandmother to suck eggs. That’s what you’re doing here.


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2022)

xelaq said:


> Watch the video(s) above mate - it seems that this is indeed the R7. I am not quite sure where to place it. Does not seem to target the same crowd as the 7D bodywise - more like a new repackaged 90D.


Since the 90D was the new repackaged 7DIII that makes sense.


----------



## pauloancarvalho (May 23, 2022)

Stig Nygaard said:


> For those who didn't see the video before it goes/went private, here's what I got:
> 
> 15mechanical/30electronic shutter
> 1/320 flash sync
> ...


Are you sure it has no 30min limit? Didn't catch that one on the video.


----------



## Bob Howland (May 23, 2022)

Stig Nygaard said:


> For those who didn't see the video before it goes/went private, here's what I got:
> 
> 15mechanical/30electronic shutter
> 1/320 flash sync
> ...


More importantly, there is Rudy Winston in his Canon shirt giving us all that information.


----------



## JustUs7 (May 23, 2022)

AlanF said:


> It's very misleading. The extra reach vis-a-vis the R5 is only 1.4x since the R5 has 45 Mpx FF vs 32.5 on the R7. Against an 83 Mpx that presumably will come out in the future, it will be the same. We will need wide telephoto lenses to take full advantage of the 32.5 Mpx.


Of course you’re correct. But I don’t think it’s misleading. People that have more pixels per duck aren’t going to be upset when they find out that the wording describing how they got there wasn’t technically correct. They’ll just think, “Yay! Ducks! Look at the detail in their feathers. And half the price of the R5 too!”


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## ItRainsSmiles (May 23, 2022)

pauloancarvalho said:


> Are you sure it has no 30min limit? Didn't catch that one on the video.


Yeah, I've seen the video, too. It was said it has no 30 min video limit


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## H. Jones (May 23, 2022)

Anyone happen to take any screenshots of the video before it went private? Hitting myself that I didn't see this on here sooner.


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## Stig Nygaard (May 23, 2022)

pauloancarvalho said:


> Are you sure it has no 30min limit? Didn't catch that one on the video.


Yes, I'm sure. I still have video open and can rewatch (I think it is private for others now?)


----------



## Kharan (May 23, 2022)

ata bora said:


> Discover the Canon EOS R7 with Rudy Winston​


Please tell me that somebody downloaded it! It's the internet, things never disappear, there's always at least one person who archives stuff, right!?

No, I don't wanna wait 24 hours more or whatever


----------



## ata bora (May 23, 2022)

Kharan said:


> Please tell me that somebody downloaded it! It's the internet, things never disappear, there's always at least one person who archives stuff, right!?
> 
> No, I don't wanna wait 24 hours more or whatever


----------



## ata bora (May 23, 2022)

You're right.The only thing I will say for the video is that it is not a detailed introduction.


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## Stig Nygaard (May 23, 2022)

Stig Nygaard said:


> For those who didn't see the video before it goes/went private, here's what I got:
> 
> 15mechanical/30electronic shutter
> 1/320 flash sync
> ...



Also (not unexpected) I think the small print when showing electronic shutter said 12bit RAW. Wish it was more bits, but without a stacked sensor I guess we have to live with that.


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## fastprime (May 23, 2022)

H. Jones said:


> Anyone happen to take any screenshots of the video before it went private? Hitting myself that I didn't see this on here sooner.


Got this one


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## Tangent (May 23, 2022)

Initial impressions on R10 not already dtd

The R10 with 18-150 looks about the same size as an SL3/rebel with the 18-55 ef-s mounted
The 18-45 is sort of a zoom pancake. 2.7 inch projecting from body.
The 16 2.8 RF looks like a good 2nd lens for someone getting an M10.
The R10 seems a step back, even for entry level. It just looks stodgy. It better be cheap.
The 2 lenses are very likely imho to be cruddy optics fixed in camera.
Perhaps the M will continue as Japan-only, since it sells well there?
At the beginning Canon was showing us what nifty ideas they could implement with the new R system. Now with the R10 they are showing us how cheap and uninspiring they can be with the R mount and in-body lens extreme image correction and de-warping, with better high-ISO enabling ever crappier slow kit lenses.
Update 5/25: fwiw, After seeing the intro videos and some (small) sample images I've revised my opinion way upward. ...fwiw.


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## AlanF (May 23, 2022)

JustUs7 said:


> Of course you’re correct. But I don’t think it’s misleading. People that have more pixels per duck aren’t going to be upset when they find out that the wording describing how they got there wasn’t technically correct. They’ll just think, “Yay! Ducks! Look at the detail in their feathers. And half the price of the R5 too!”


It's not misleading to those who know what is going on. But, there's an awfully large number who don't, and you can see their posts here and in other forums (especially M4/3).


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

Tangent said:


> how cheap and uninspiring they can be with the R mount


How dare they release something that mere mortals can afford?


----------



## Skux (May 23, 2022)

Why only a 2.36m EVF though


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## mchris (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Pics look interesting.
> 
> Something I don't get:
> That AF/MF switch on the front side. I wouldn't want to have it there.
> ...


This is a good sign. May be we'll see more chip RF-S lenses in the future


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## Stig Nygaard (May 23, 2022)

Some video screenshots:

















I notice a dedicated ISO button on top...


----------



## Fletchahh (May 23, 2022)

I never ended up closing the video's page, so here's some choice stills!


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## Bob Howland (May 23, 2022)

ata bora said:


> I think it was added by mistake


And I think it was done intentionally. This sort of thing happens all the time. I ordered my 5D two days before its introduction because the sell sheet from Canon Spain appeared on the Internet.


----------



## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

pauloancarvalho said:


> Looks a great camera, what do you think the price's? If its like 1100$-1200$ maybe I'll consider it. If it's 1500$ or more I don't see a point of getting a Canon R6 instead. We'll know very soon anyway.


_No chance in hell_ it's going to be less than $1500 MSRP, especially with the component shortage and now inflation eating profit margins. The R6 is still $2500 and gives way fewer pixels per duck. I'm guessing $1600 to $1800.


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

Oh, it has Scene Modes and Creative Filters options on the mode dial. Thank goodness, I definitely wouldn't survive without those!


----------



## blackcoffee17 (May 23, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> _No chance in hell_ it's going to be less than $1500 MSRP, especially with the component shortage and now inflation eating profit margins. The R6 is still $2500 and gives way fewer pixels per duck. I'm guessing $1600 to $1800.



The R7 will be no less than $2000 in my opinion.


----------



## Bonich (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Pics look interesting.
> 
> Something I don't get:
> That AF/MF switch on the front side. I wouldn't want to have it there.
> ...


SW AF/MF switch sucks, I can tell you.
Using the 16 2.8 on the EOS R is all OK beside the missing switch.
The only workaround I can live with is BBAF.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (May 23, 2022)

pzyber said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if these will replace the R and the RP.


The original R won’t be replaced. It was a one off, introduction t the R system, camera. If anything then the R5 is already the R replacement.


----------



## Kharan (May 23, 2022)

No love for the R10 introduction video? Just noticed the thumbnail in a photo


----------



## Del Paso (May 23, 2022)

What I really hate about the EOS R is its EVF definition (3,7 million dots).
But only 2,36 for a new camera???  
Sorry Canon, but for me, the VF is a major feature in a camera, and a reason to buy or not to buy.


----------



## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

Kharan said:


> No love for the R10 introduction video? Just noticed the thumbnail in a photo


Yeah, I meant to watch it but then it was already pulled when I tried.


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## Jasonmc89 (May 23, 2022)

BuffaloBird said:


> I really hope these pics are just mockups. The R7 design and controls look horrifying. If this is actually the final design, then this is a hard pass from me! Not at all a continuation of the past 7D line in usability and a huge step backwards.
> 
> Again, hoping these photos are nonsense.


You’ve not tried it yet…?


----------



## ItRainsSmiles (May 23, 2022)

Kharan said:


> No love for the R10 introduction video? Just noticed the thumbnail in a photo


It was actually good. He mentioned how affordable it is a few times  Besides that it was announced as "not an entry level camera".


----------



## blackcoffee17 (May 23, 2022)

The lenses are a disappointment. Two very dark zooms starting at 29mm equivalent.
How could Nikon make a 24-75 with 3.5-5.6 which is the same size as Canon's 29-72?

Or how can Sigma make a very good 18-50 2.8 which weighs 290g?


----------



## Kharan (May 23, 2022)

ItRainsSmiles said:


> It was actually good. He mentioned how affordable it is a few times  Besides that it was announced as "not an entry level camera".


Thanks for the comment. Do you remember how it looked from the back? Any surprises? Does it have a video record limit?


----------



## pzyber (May 23, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> Nope, because these are crop ones


True but what I meant is that they might stop selling RP and R when these are out. R6 and R5 already exist as a fullframe replacement.



Jasonmc89 said:


> The original R won’t be replaced. It was a one off, introduction t the R system, camera. If anything then the R5 is already the R replacement.


That's what I meant, "replace" was a bit bad of a wording.


----------



## Fletchahh (May 23, 2022)

Kharan said:


> No love for the R10 introduction video? Just noticed the thumbnail in a photo


I already closed page for that one by time I noticed it was made private, sorry


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## blackcoffee17 (May 23, 2022)

ItRainsSmiles said:


> It was actually good. He mentioned how affordable it is a few times  Besides that it was announced as "not an entry level camera".



$1500 is the new "affordable"


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## ItRainsSmiles (May 23, 2022)

Kharan said:


> Thanks for the comment. Do you remember how it looked from the back? Any surprises? Does it have a video record limit?


Sorry I don't remember any details, since my mind was still at the R7 video ^^##


----------



## Bishop80 (May 23, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Of course, Canon designed this lever at that position for a certain reason: it is a good position for the majority of testers.
> And maybe for you, too.
> Maybe I am the minority in finding that position bad, but together with focus by wire I just don‘t get it.
> 
> And I come from the point of view, that I can do MF since I was using my fathers FTb


We could be putting too much faith in Canon, but I hope that they progressively make each generation of camera and body style more attuned to what users want. Of course they could still miss the mark, like with this AF/MF switch.

I don't disagree on the location. That may be a bad spot. As long as I can reach a button without finger contortion, I (my small hands) can work with it. Fat, fidgety, or forgetful fingers may disagree and need a different location, or just disable it in the menu. My 1DX Mark III has buttons everywhere, but once I programmed and learned them, they very usable.


----------



## Eriknoteric (May 23, 2022)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Some video screenshots:
> 
> View attachment 203838
> 
> ...


That is devastating. How can canon go back to not having three adjustment dials. It might be a complete deal breaker to me. For the life of me I don’t understand why canon would wouldn’t just put a crop sensor in the r6 body and call it the r7


----------



## efmshark (May 23, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> Honestly, the rear dial being around the joystick is certainly an unorthodox solution, but probably ergonomically better than its traditional position. Especially on a smaller body that couldn't fit the 5D7/7D style large dial.
> 
> BTW, I'm interested to see what buttons there are on the right shoulder of the R7, next to the mode dial. Lock and Record, maybe?
> 
> Also, I'm rather disappointed by the 2.36Mdot EVF on the R7. It's not very much for a 2022 supposed prosumer camera.


Indeed, 2.36M dot EVF (basically 1024x768) is pretty pathetic for a prosumer camera being introduced in 2022. EVF resolution should have been 3.7M dots to make R7 a good option for wildlife photographers, or 5.8M dots to make it a leader in the segment.


----------



## Skux (May 23, 2022)

Eriknoteric said:


> That is devastating. How can canon go back to not having three adjustment dials. It might be a complete deal breaker to me. For the life of me I don’t understand why canon would wouldn’t just put a crop sensor in the r6 body and call it the r7


That's what I was hoping for but this seems like a step back. Even my M6 Mark II has three dials.

The dial around the joystick is a nice idea and keeps it near the AF-on button but it's an overall reduction in utility compared to the R6. And with the low-res EVF it seems this is more like a 90D/M6ii replacement than a true APS-C flagship.


----------



## bergstrom (May 23, 2022)

pzyber said:


> True but what I meant is that they might stop selling RP and R when these are out. R6 and R5 already exist as a fullframe replacement.
> 
> 
> That's what I meant, "replace" was a bit bad of a wording.


The RP is not up to scratch and needs to be replaced with a mark II. The R6 is too expensive and too many complaints about it, so they need to do RP2 as a proper medium between the 2, better battery, proper 4k, zero overheating.


----------



## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

Skux said:


> That's what I was hoping for but this seems like a step back. Even my M6 Mark II has three dials.


However, the control ring in RF lenses balances the equation a bit.


----------



## JustUs7 (May 23, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> However, the control ring in RF lenses balances the equation a bit.


That’s exactly right. I have an RP and my wife has an M6II. The control ring on the RP is mapped to exposure comp as is the quick menu dial on the M6II. 

If you’re using primarily EF glass, then this is lost off course.


----------



## H. Jones (May 23, 2022)

I'm genuinely very interested to see how this joystick dial works in the real world. I feel like Canon had to have learned from the touch-bar to not do this kind of thing without feedback from actual users, so I'm fairly confident Canon had to have gotten good feedback on it. To me, with the closer photos, it actually looks pretty nice. Seems like there's plenty of space between the joystick and the wheel to stop inadvertent changes, and looks like a natural position for the thumb to use both while gripping the camera firmly.

Odd to me that there's no third dial, but again, the control ring on the lens can make up for that. A little annoying though when you consider the big white supertelephoto RF lenses don't have a control ring, so with those you'd be limited to the rear aperture wheel and the shutter wheel. But, if you're using the control ring adapter and EF supertelephoto lenses, you still have a third ring.

Additionally, the added "ISO" button probably means Canon expects users to change ISO the old fashioned way, using the button + shutter wheel like on EF cameras.

Overall, it seems like the intent with these cameras is to be compact and cheap over anything else. I'll be interested to see how cheap. The R10 definitely screams "$800 or less" to me, but we'll see.

I think one missed part of this is, the R5, and likely the future "R5s" or whatever it gets called, are probably somewhat compensating for the flagship crop sensor spot of the original 7D. Already tons of wildlife and sports photographers who need 1.6x are using the R5 successfully in the crop sensor mode. The "R5s" when it comes out will almost definitely have a 32 megapixel crop mode, if not higher. If they pull off a high framerate, or allow faster FPS in crop mode, that could functionally be a pro-style 7D equivalent.

That leaves more room for the R7 to be more of a 90D-style camera, with a little more compactness for those traveling and needing to save room. If that helps bring the price down, I think that honestly helps the R7 sell more to consumers in general.


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2022)

efmshark said:


> Indeed, 2.36M dot EVF (basically 1024x768) is pretty pathetic for a prosumer camera being introduced in 2022.


I don’t like the EOS R EVF, which has 3.69 million dots. The R3 with 5.76 million dots, 120 fps and OVF simulation is the first EVF I’ve used that comes close to a good OVF. 

Canon’s APS-C DSLRs never had very good OVFs, even the 7-series wasn’t great, though it was the best one in an APS-C body. Sounds like the R7 is following that path.


----------



## H. Jones (May 23, 2022)

JustUs7 said:


> That’s exactly right. I have an RP and my wife has an M6II. The control ring on the RP is mapped to exposure comp as is the quick menu dial on the M6II.
> 
> If you’re using primarily EF glass, then this is lost off course.



If you're using EF glass, the control ring adapter solves that. I love my control ring adapters.


----------



## pauloancarvalho (May 23, 2022)

I have a Canon EOS R and a R5 C and I'm a video first guy. Should I get a Canon R6 to use the same battery grip and smallrig cage as the R5 C or should I go with the R7? Something tells me the R6 is a better option even for video, but that "recording no limit" and possibly no overheating is interesting. I still think the Canon R6 is a better option to optimise the grip and cage/similar ergonomics.


----------



## Fotofriend (May 23, 2022)

I was really hoping for nicer aesthetics and design of these bodies. Especially the R10 is quite ugly IMO with this recycled and outdated design of the rebel DSLRs… never liked this unnecessary flat lip or long “roof” of the integrated flash. The M5 and M50 have much more style and show that it’s possible to integrate a flash in an elegant and stylish way that also keeps the whole body slim (less depth). And then that strange over-dimensional thumb wheel of the R7 … 
Are there any designers with taste at Canon …


----------



## blackcoffee17 (May 23, 2022)

That 4 way controller on the back of the R7 is so ugly I can't even look at it. A big wheel would be so much better


----------



## unfocused (May 23, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I don’t like the EOS R EVF, which has 3.69 million dots. The R3 with 5.76 million dots, 120 fps and OVF simulation is the first EVF I’ve used that comes close to a good OVF.
> 
> Canon’s APS-C DSLRs never had very good OVFs, even the 7-series wasn’t great, though it was the best one in an APS-C body. Sounds like the R7 is following that path.


This is probably a stupid question but does sensor size have any bearing on the electronic viewfinder resolution. In other words, is a 2.36M dot EVF the same resolution on a full frame camera as on a crop sensor camera? And, while we are on the topic, are there other factors that might make a new 2.36 dot EVF sharper than an older EVF like the R?


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2022)

JustUs7 said:


> That’s exactly right. I have an RP and my wife has an M6II. The control ring on the RP is mapped to exposure comp as is the quick menu dial on the M6II.


I have an M6, which has a 4th dial (inset in the top dial, where the dial function button is on the M6II) dedicated to EC. It’s too bad Canon dropped that with M6II, it’s quite handy.


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## unfocused (May 23, 2022)

I always enjoy new releases from Canon and the reaction on CR. I'm anxious to see the hype from Canon and the reviews once the R7 is released. The 90D would have been a great camera if Canon had given it better autofocus. If they give this the autofocus of the R5/R6 this could be a nice option. 

My initial reaction is that this is at best a refurbished purchase in 18 months or so. Certainly not a preorder purchase.


----------



## navastronia (May 23, 2022)

I don't think that aperture ring + joystick looks enjoyable to use, and I'm sure this will cost $2099, or somewhere in that ballpark. That said, it's nice just to see more cameras announced.


----------



## navastronia (May 23, 2022)

Now that this announcement is out of the way . . . Give me the R1 or give me death!


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## LSXPhotog (May 23, 2022)

These images seem extremely fake.


----------



## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> These images seem extremely fake.


Including the official intro video by Canon US’s Rudy Winston? That’s some heavy duty faking going on then.


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## LSXPhotog (May 23, 2022)

If the R7 images are actually real, Canon decided to clearly make the R7 less “professional” with its ergonomics. They removed a dial that I’ve grown extremely accustomed to being assigned for ISO. I’m also very confident now that we’re just seeing a recycled M6 Mark II/90D sensor as…which means electronic shutter will be hardly usable for action and moving subjects. I doubt that it will have improved readout speeds, but I hope. That sensor is great except for that. 

I really hope Canon didn’t just make the R7 a small little dumb camera. Because, from the looks of it, they did. I had hopes for an APS-C R6 at the very least and not an ergonomic redesign. Please let that back shot be from the R10 and not the R7!! Please let these just be fake! Haha


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## LSXPhotog (May 23, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> Including the official intro video by Canon US’s Rudy Winston? That’s some heavy duty faking going on then.


Where did you see a video?


----------



## Bob Howland (May 23, 2022)

unfocused said:


> This is probably a stupid question but does sensor size have any bearing on the electronic viewfinder resolution. In other words, is a 2.36M dot EVF the same resolution on a full frame camera as on a crop sensor camera? And, while we are on the topic, are there other factors that might make a new 2.36 dot EVF sharper than an older EVF like the R?


I can't see why sensor size would matter WRT viewfinder resolution. 24MP FF and 24MP APS-C are both 24MP. As for your second question, I haven't a clue.


----------



## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> Where did you see a video?


Linked to this very thread before it was pulled. But screenshots and discussion remain.


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## xelaq (May 23, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> Where did you see a video?


It ia still posted in this thread and was visible before ot was set to private. There should be a few screengrabs on one of the thread's pages


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## blackcoffee17 (May 23, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> Where did you see a video?



There are screenshots from the video few pages up in this thread


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## Bob Howland (May 23, 2022)

LSXPhotog said:


> Where did you see a video?


Post #85 in this thread. That's what we've been talking about for the last 80 or so postings.


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> I can't see why sensor size would matter WRT viewfinder resolution. 24MP FF and 24MP APS-C are both 24MP. As for your second question, I haven't a clue.


I guess if the viewfinder image is smaller (less magnified), like it traditionally is in APS-C optical VFs, then the apparent resolution is higher, of course at the expense of a more "tunnel-like" VF image. But I don’t know if that’s the case.


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## Shannon_S (May 23, 2022)

Hopefully these pics aren't real. The R7 might have been my first R series body for wildlife. If that is the rear controls of the R7, Canon seriously has blown it. It's too much of a downgrade from the controls on the 7D2/1DX/5D4. Let's hope they surprise us.


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## CJudge (May 23, 2022)

Stig Nygaard said:


> For those who didn't see the video before it goes/went private, here's what I got:
> 
> 15mechanical/30electronic shutter
> 1/320 flash sync
> ...


Here's hoping this is a sign that the next firmware update to the R5/6 will include a removing of the 30 limit record limit.


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## Act444 (May 23, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> Mockup posted here for leaked specs were pretty accurate.


Assuming these pictures are legit...seems to me there were folk(s) who had a "preview look" (or knew enough) and were thus able to create a more accurate representation of the final product...

I initially found it odd that the mockup somehow had a AF/MF switch in that spot (no R cameras I know of have that switch, just the DOF button), but it all makes sense now.

Anyway, I expected that this "R7" would have been much closer to the R5 in size, features and appearance, especially considering the 7D series' strong resemblance to the 5D series. Perhaps even borrowing certain features from the R3 (like eye control and vehicle tracking) to set it apart and justify its price point with an APS-C sensor. Seems to be closer to the R6 in features, but even then, there are major ergonomic differences. Not sure what they're going for here? Looks similar in size to the RP (and I notice the viewfinder sensor is on the right instead of the bottom - as an RP user, this is an inferior position). Strange design choice if it's true. Or perhaps this is meant to be the APS-C version of the R and RP release where Canon is testing the waters before they come out with the "real" ML legacy camera lines?

The "R10" appears to perhaps be, to some degree, the mirrorless successor of the 90D.

As an M-series user, neither of these bodies interest me, they are larger/heavier than I'm willing to tolerate for an APS-C sensor camera.


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## JustUs7 (May 23, 2022)

I find it interesting that many who were using pro-body DSLR’s are disappointed and are convinced that it can’t be professional because it isn’t big and clunky and covered in buttons. 

Isn’t this what mirrorless was supposed to accomplish? Smaller, more efficient, etc?


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## LSXPhotog (May 23, 2022)

I wanted a mirrorless 7D Mark II with new features. This is a plastic almost toy camera in size and buttons - let the R10 be the little guy. Haha


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## xelaq (May 23, 2022)

Act444 said:


> As an M-series user, neither of these bodies interest me, they are larger/heavier than I'm willing to tolerate for an APS-C sensor camera.


Honestly, if this is what they kill the M line off for, than it was a pretty shit deal IMO.


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## Bob Howland (May 23, 2022)

Act444 said:


> As an M-series user, neither of these bodies interest me, they are larger/heavier than I'm willing to tolerate for an APS-C sensor camera.


Looking at the size of the R10 lens mount and the body as a whole, the R10 doesn't seem much bigger than my E5, with the exception of depth (front-back). The grip on the R10 must be pretty substantial.

Correction: M5, not R5


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## Eriknoteric (May 23, 2022)

Skux said:


> That's what I was hoping for but this seems like a step back. Even my M6 Mark II has three dials.
> 
> The dial around the joystick is a nice idea and keeps it near the AF-on button but it's an overall reduction in utility compared to the R6. And with the low-res EVF it seems this is more like a 90D/M6ii replacement than a true APS-C flagship.


I completely agree this definitely feels like a big step backwards. I could get used to the new thumb wheel location. It might even be better in the long run (I doubt it) these people complaining about the Af/Mf switch are missing the forest for the trees imo. Having completely different ergonomics from the r5/6, not having a third dial, Not having a cfexpress card, and Not having a quality EVF are real issues that effectively ruin this camera for me. 

Canon could have saved a boatload on R&D by just throwing the 90d sensor in an R6 since they gave us a recycled sensor and processor anyway why not recycle a body that is tried and true as well. 

I also really do not understand the inclusion of a D-pad… the multi direction controller (joystick) and touch screen completely negate any need for it. And if canon really thought it was a necessity why not put the thumb wheel around that instead of the joystick


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## Bob Howland (May 23, 2022)

xelaq said:


> Honestly, if this is what they kill the M line off for, than it was a pretty shit deal IMO.


As I said earlier, maybe the R10 will form the basis for an M10. I'm not holding my breath however.


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

JustUs7 said:


> Isn’t this what mirrorless was supposed to accomplish? Smaller, more efficient, etc?


There were always two camps. I don’t think many Canon and Nikon pro/sumer shooters ever wanted smaller bodies at the expense of ergonomics and battery capacity. Tiny bodies were for casual shooters, until Sony very intentionally made "small, mirrorless, FF" their niche and "big clumsy DSLRs are dinosaurs" their marketing angle.


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## unfocused (May 23, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> I can't see why sensor size would matter WRT viewfinder resolution. 24MP FF and 24MP APS-C are both 24MP. As for your second question, I haven't a clue.


Well, I'm comparing the viewfinder on my wife's old 90D to the viewfinder on my R5 and the R5 viewfinder seems larger to me. So I was thinking that the 2.36M dots might be spread out over less total area on a crop sensor camera than on a full frame camera.


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## chrisrmueller (May 23, 2022)

I assume that based on


CJudge said:


> Here's hoping this is a sign that the next firmware update to the R5/6 will include a removing of the 30 limit record limit.


This would be amazing!


----------



## Fotofriend (May 23, 2022)

blackcoffee17 said:


> That 4 way controller on the back of the R7 is so ugly I can't even look at it. A big wheel would be so much better


Exactly what I thought, can‘t even look at it


----------



## chrisrmueller (May 23, 2022)

JustUs7 said:


> I find it interesting that many who were using pro-body DSLR’s are disappointed and are convinced that it can’t be professional because it isn’t big and clunky and covered in buttons.
> 
> Isn’t this what mirrorless was supposed to accomplish? Smaller, more efficient, etc?


I think what’s frustrating is that the ergonomics have changed again so users will have to learn a whole new body system. With the 7D series the ergonomics were similar to the 5D series, which was similar to the R5 and R6. You could switch back and forth without thinking. I fear this new design adds another hurdle in a professional workflow. Of course none of us have handled it so the fear and uncertainty may all be for nothing. 

If anyone is debating whether the camera can be used in a professional environment, I certainly think it can be; I used an M50 professionally alongside my other gear for a few years. Especially with 32 MP, high flash shutter sync speed, high frame rate, and presumably great autofocus.


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## Kharan (May 23, 2022)

pauloancarvalho said:


> I have a Canon EOS R and a R5 C and I'm a video first guy. Should I get a Canon R6 to use the same battery grip and smallrig cage as the R5 C or should I go with the R7? Something tells me the R6 is a better option even for video, but that "recording no limit" and possibly no overheating is interesting. I still think the Canon R6 is a better option to optimise the grip and cage/similar ergonomics.


I'd go for the R7 in a heartbeat, unless there are significant 'gotchas' on it (remains to be seen, but I doubt it), or you really, really need to have two bodies as similar as possible (and then, maybe you should consider a regular R5). The R6 is too compromised for serious video, it's at best a B-roll camera, and depending on your type of work might not be able to sub in for the A-camera if needed.


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## geffy (May 23, 2022)

meh and meh, i like the m50 and would have liked a more pro version for a saraband, will not be buying any new cameras for at least three years now


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## rontele7 (May 23, 2022)

Why do people still talk about the M6? It was an extremely unpopular and pointless camera. It didn't even have a viewfinder...

Completely irrelevant.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 23, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> What I really hate about the EOS R is its EVF definition (3,7 million dots).
> But only 2,36 for a new camera???
> Sorry Canon, but for me, the VF is a major feature in a camera, and a reason to buy or not to buy.


Maybe Canon felt that a high res EVF would be overkill for a sports/action camera. That user won't be staring through it on a tripod trying to ensure the perfect composition. It's more like, frame-subject-shoot. Then take your eye away from the camera to see what else is happening around you.

I'm more interested in the EVF delay and responsiveness.


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## Sharlin (May 23, 2022)

rontele7 said:


> extremely unpopular and pointless


According to which market research exactly?


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Well, I'm comparing the viewfinder on my wife's old 90D to the viewfinder on my R5 and the R5 viewfinder seems larger to me. So I was thinking that the 2.36M dots might be spread out over less total area on a crop sensor camera than on a full frame camera.


Yes, that’s possible. The size of the EVF display matters. It’s 0.5” in the R5/R3, no idea about the new bodies. Magnification of the EVF display also occurs, and the quality of the VF glass between the EVF display and your eye also matters.


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## fastprime (May 24, 2022)

rontele7 said:


> Why do people still talk about the M6? It was an extremely unpopular and pointless camera. It didn't even have a viewfinder...
> 
> Completely irrelevant.


You hate it so much you added it to your profile?


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> Maybe Canon felt that a high res EVF would be overkill for a sports/action camera.


So the R3 isn’t intended for sports/action? Lol.


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## Act444 (May 24, 2022)

rontele7 said:


> Why do people still talk about the M6? It was an extremely unpopular *and pointless camera*. It didn't even have a viewfinder...
> 
> Completely irrelevant.


Hardly, I still have mine. When paired with the EF-M 55-200mm it's hard to beat in terms of reach and portability...Small enough to even bring into some stadiums.


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## jdavidse (May 24, 2022)

The photo of the R7 can't be real. It looks like a rebel, not a professional wildlife camera and successor to the 7DII. If it is real, then what we are getting is yet another drastic change in controls that means it really can't be paired, workflow-wise, side-by-side with a R6 or R5. Much like Canon's experiment with the touch bar on the R, this will prove very unpopular. The 4-way controller and the whole back of the camera just scream Rebel T2i.


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## dtaylor (May 24, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> I wonder if the R10 will be the basis for an M10 or the M-system is truly dying.


I really wish Canon would keep the M system and add a few more compact primes. The original M (and similarly styled bodies) + 22mm f/2 is P&S size territory. I don't think an RF based body can match on dimensions/size/weight.

Whether or not the M survives at all likely depends on the market's response. Will M buyers flock to the new APS-C RF bodies? Or will the M still have a profitable niche?


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

rontele7 said:


> Why do people still talk about the M6? It was an extremely unpopular and pointless camera. It didn't even have a viewfinder...
> 
> Completely irrelevant.


Those last two words aptly summarize your post.


----------



## jdavidse (May 24, 2022)

chrisrmueller said:


> I think what’s frustrating is that the ergonomics have changed again so users will have to learn a whole new body system. With the 7D series the ergonomics were similar to the 5D series, which was similar to the R5 and R6. You could switch back and forth without thinking. I fear this new design adds another hurdle in a professional workflow. Of course none of us have handled it so the fear and uncertainty may all be for nothing.
> 
> If anyone is debating whether the camera can be used in a professional environment, I certainly think it can be; I used an M50 professionally alongside my other gear for a few years. Especially with 32 MP, high flash shutter sync speed, high frame rate, and presumably great autofocus.


Exactly my thoughts. I remember buying a 5DIII to shoot alongside my 7D. The two cameras felt nearly identical, and that was a great thing. Now, not only is the back dial in a different place but they have removed the shoulder dial


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## John Wilde (May 24, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> Whether or not the M survives at all likely depends on the market's response. Will M buyers flock to the new APS-C RF bodies? Or will the M still have a profitable niche?


My guess is that the M50 line will survive, because it will probably be less expensive than the R10.


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## Act444 (May 24, 2022)

dtaylor said:


> I really wish Canon would keep the M system and add a few more compact primes. The original M (and similarly styled bodies) + 22mm f/2 is P&S size territory. I don't think an RF based body can match on dimensions/size/weight.


It would be nice, but I'm not counting on it. Even though I prefer larger cameras for serious shooting, it is always handy to have something P&S-sized for travel and casual use.


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

Act444 said:


> Even though I prefer larger cameras for serious shooting, it is always handy to have something P&S-sized for travel and casual use.


Agreed. Birds in flight, R3 + EF 600/4 II. My 8th grader’s indoor graduation ceremony, R3 + RF 70-200/2.8. A classmate’s outdoor farm birthday party that my 3rd grader attended, M6 + M18-150.


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## rbr (May 24, 2022)

For me that lack of a thumb wheel is a no go. I've been using Canon EOS cameras since the 90's and using it has become second nature to me. All the Canon cameras I've owned (20 or so over the years) have had one. I was hoping that the R7 would be a good camera to pair with my R5, but I think I'll pass.


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## David render (May 24, 2022)

Canon has just bumped the sales of Sony and Nikon, these cameras are a pile of crap, I've used canon since 1980, I'm buying a Nikon Z9, and dumping my R5, these cameras are a scam, using a three year old sensor, and the screen and view finder are out of a child's toy. Is it April the first or something, these are a pile of scrap. Well done canon, you're driving your customers to Nikon and Sony.


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## David render (May 24, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> Nope, because these are crop ones


Do you mean crap ones?


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## rbr (May 24, 2022)

David render said:


> Canon has just bumped the sales of Sony and Nikon, these cameras are a pile of crap, I've used canon since 1980, I'm buying a Nikon Z9, and dumping my R5, these cameras are a scam, using a three year old sensor, and the screen and view finder are out of a child's toy. Is it April the first or something, these are a pile of scrap. Well done canon, you're driving your customers to Nikon and Sony.


I have been seriously thinking of doing the same myself, mostly to get the Nikon 800 6.3. These cameras push me further in that direction.


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## C4RBON (May 24, 2022)

No regrets whatsoever on my recent M6 mk2 purchase (get one before they’re gone!). These APS-C R mount bodies are never going to be as small as the M bodies, and thus won’t be as attractive for travel.

I hope the M system lives on. I’d be willing to pay quite a lot for a higher-end built M with IBIS.


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## Sharlin (May 24, 2022)

David render said:


> Blah blah blah


Don't let the door hit you on your way out.


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## Sharlin (May 24, 2022)

rbr said:


> For me that lack of a thumb wheel is a no go.


What lack of a thumb wheel?


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## IShootBirds (May 24, 2022)

I think we need to appreciate these cameras are clearly 90D/Rebel cameras and will be very affordable. The R7 will likely be $1399 so lets look at what you get for $1399.

15FPS mechanical (Electronic will be unusable due to lag and rolling shutter)
Buffer - Buffer is likely to be very good.
AF - Amazing eye tracking from the R5/R6, does any other cheaper camera have this?
Weather resistant.
32.5mp APSC Sensor
Dual Card Slots

There are a lot of weaknesses with this camera with the EVF, lack of third dial, terrible rolling shutter, weird button placement. But at an affordable price I suspect many people will put up with those to get the features on offer. If you can't afford an R6 what other options do you have for 15fps and animal eye tracking which are arguably very important things for wildlife.


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## Fletchahh (May 24, 2022)

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm interested in seeing how the new location of the wheel feels ergonomically. Overall I'm excited to pick this up as my new main (only) body from my 7D II, the EVF resolution is the largest concern, but it's definitely not a dealbreaker and I generally trust Canon's decision making.


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## rbr (May 24, 2022)

IShootBirds said:


> I think we need to appreciate these cameras are clearly 90D/Rebel cameras and will be very affordable. The R7 will likely be $1399 so lets look at what you get for $1399.
> 
> 15FPS mechanical (Electronic will be unusable due to lag and rolling shutter)
> Buffer - Buffer is likely to be very good.
> ...


I think what many people really want is a real successor to the 7D line and are probably willing to pay more than $1399 for it if it would be a camera that they will probably still want to own 7 or 8 years from now.


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## IShootBirds (May 24, 2022)

Yep, the EVF is the biggest cripple hammer by far. If anyone has used the R6/R5 side by side the difference in clarity and quality is huge. So, the fact the R7 is worse than the R6 means it will be very crunchy and digital. I would love to hear from RP shooters how they find their EVF.


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## vjlex (May 24, 2022)

IShootBirds said:


> I think we need to appreciate these cameras are clearly 90D/Rebel cameras and will be very affordable. The R7 will likely be $1399 so lets look at what you get for $1399.
> 
> 15FPS mechanical (Electronic will be unusable due to lag and rolling shutter)
> Buffer - Buffer is likely to be very good.
> ...


I'm doubtful the price will be that low, but if Canon did manage such a competitive price, I would definitely opt for the R7 over the R10.


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## IShootBirds (May 24, 2022)

I totally agree and that is exactly what I want, an updated APSC BSI sensor in an R6 body. However it appears Canon have not replaced the 7D2 but have replaced the 90D with the R7. The naming convention is what has made it very confusing as we all want an R7 to be a 7D3. However, Canons market research must have told them they will sell a lot more 90D/R7 at $1399 then a 7D3/R7 at $2499.


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## Skux (May 24, 2022)

Fletchahh said:


> I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm interested in seeing how the new location of the wheel feels ergonomically. Overall I'm excited to pick this up as my new main (only) body from my 7D II, the EVF resolution is the largest concern, but it's definitely not a dealbreaker and I generally trust Canon's decision making.


I can see it being useful, for me it would be much more efficient just sliding my finger sideways to change aperture rather than pulling down my thumb, especially if I'm just holding the camera with one hand.


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## IShootBirds (May 24, 2022)

Considering the 90D was $1199 3 years ago and the m6II $850 which both used the same sensor, I can't see this body being any higher than $1399-$1499. It also uses the RP EVF and is missing a number of features of more expensive gear.


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## John Wilde (May 24, 2022)

David render said:


> Canon has just bumped the sales of Sony and Nikon, these cameras are a pile of crap,


Whatever you say Karen.


----------



## Czardoom (May 24, 2022)

IShootBirds said:


> Yep, the EVF is the biggest cripple hammer by far. If anyone has used the R6/R5 side by side the difference in clarity and quality is huge. So, the fact the R7 is worse than the R6 means it will be very crunchy and digital. I would love to hear from RP shooters how they find their EVF.


Absolutely no issues with the RP's EVF. perfectly fine as I'm sure the EVF will be on these new cameras. Oh, I forgot...numbers are everything! The higher the better...even when it doesn't really matter.


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Absolutely no issues with the RP's EVF. perfectly fine as I'm sure the EVF will be on these new cameras. Oh, I forgot...numbers are everything! The higher the better...even when it doesn't really matter.


Do you shoot much fast-paced action with your RP?


----------



## drift juice (May 24, 2022)




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## vjlex (May 24, 2022)

drift juice said:


>


Thanks! I missed the earlier leaked video.


----------



## Czardoom (May 24, 2022)

As has been discussed here many times, the sales of a pro level crop camera were clearly not high enough to have a camera that fills this niche and that niche alone. The 7D series was never updated to a mark III, which it would have been if it followed Canon's typical timeline. Nikon's D500, while getting great reviews from reviewers and consumers, never got a newer generation update either. The fact that Canon released the 90D rather than a 7D III with specs that were not pro level, but higher than the 80D, seemed to indicate that a compromise between the two lines was the path that Canon considered profitable. So, it could be quite possible that the R7 follows the same strategy. Not 7D level, but more along the lines of the 90D.

Which, for me - and presumably many of us - would fit with who we are and what we actually need as photographers. I'm no pro, but an enthusiast that does a lot of bird photography. If the price is right (and a pro level camera would certainly be more than I can afford) than this may be a great fit. I will care about the AF system, not whether or not it has a MF/AF switch on the front of the camera (a no-brainer good idea, it seems to me). I will care about FPS (And that seems to be confirmed as plenty good enough.) I will care about size and weight - and unlike many others, I think the R7 is a very good size for those wanting something close to the R5 and R6 (just a bit smaller and lighter). The R10 would be a great option for me if the R7 is too pricey as it would be a wonderful size and weight paired with my RF 100-400. The R10 would also be very suitable size and weight wise with the RF 100-400. Not sure why this seems absurd to say, but I care image quality, size and weight, and AF ability, not the fact that is has a newly positioned back dial (seems like it might be a really good place for it. I often have a bit if trouble manipulating the second top dial. I always liked the second back dial on the 6D). I care about what the photos look like, not what the camera looks like. 

I sold my R6, but kept my 100-400 hoping for an RF crop camera. So, I'm looking forward to what these two cameras will offer.

But others, feel free to continue to whine and complain about the smallest little things that don't meet your personal desires. The more forum members whine and complain, the more convinced I become that Canon has made some really good decisions!


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## vjlex (May 24, 2022)

Confirmed R7 price in euros is 1500. Nice! R10 is 1200. I guess I'll be going with the R7.


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## vjlex (May 24, 2022)

The R10 video.


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## John Wilde (May 24, 2022)

vjlex said:


> The R10 video.


Adorable size.


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## JasonL (May 24, 2022)

If the R7 doesn't have a grip I'm out.


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## bergstrom (May 24, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> What lack of a thumb wheel?



just noticed it myself, what clown at canon decided to move it? What next, car makers put the steering wheel in the boot? Jeeeeeeeeeezz


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## David - Sydney (May 24, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Agreed. Birds in flight, R3 + EF 600/4 II. My 8th grader’s indoor graduation ceremony, R3 + RF 70-200/2.8. A classmate’s outdoor farm birthday party that my 3rd grader attended, M6 + M18-150.


Do 8th graders "graduate" now?


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Do 8th graders "graduate" now?


Kindergarteners “graduate” now, lol.


----------



## sanj (May 24, 2022)

I learn yet again in life not to believe 'Mr know it all's. I hope that this is a humbling moment for some on this forum. I personally do not have a need for the APSC camera currently but am delighted that it is launched. Also, no one can tell me anymore that APSC cameras do not make sense.
And, this is again a clear indication that it is bye bye DSLR. And we did not have to wait too long.


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## CaptureLightMedia (May 24, 2022)

Sweeet


----------



## CaptureLightMedia (May 24, 2022)




----------



## IShootBirds (May 24, 2022)

My take away from those videos is you can get class leading AF from a very affordable body. If you shoot in 15fps mech/CRAW on the R7 you will get a buffer of around 100 which is more than enough. In theory it won't be far off $1500USD which is pretty good for all those features.


----------



## vjlex (May 24, 2022)

I just put in a reservation for the R7 with my local camera shop. If I decide on the R10 later, hopefully I can just buy it off the self.


----------



## sanj (May 24, 2022)

AlP said:


> The lenses are tapered, so they will have a smaller diameter than the cheaper RF 50 and RF 16.
> That 18-150 looks very similar to the EF-M 18-150 both in overall size and "look" from the front, but it seems like it has larger maximum magnification (see post on Digicame-info), so maybe a slightly different design.
> 
> Still surprised on how good the "mock-ups" were, assuming that the images leaked today are those of the real cameras, of course. The R7 mock-up even showed that new rear dial sticking out from the backside of the camera. Only the right side of the camera (seen from the front) was different, (maybe to avoid issues with those images?).
> I do agree with previous posters that some details seem a bit off, we'll know very soon





John Wilde said:


> For comparison: (W X H X D)
> 
> R10 Size: 122.5 X 87.8 X 83.4mm
> M50 Size: 116.3 x 88.1 x 58.7mm
> R6 Size: 138 x 97.5 x 88.4mm


thx!


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## john1970 (May 24, 2022)

I might have considered the R7 if it was indeed a technical powerhouse with a BSI stacked sensor, CFExpress B card, high R EVF with R5 body. Money saved while I wait patiently for the R1 to be announced likely sometime in the next 6-12 months.


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## Act444 (May 24, 2022)

IShootBirds said:


> I would love to hear from RP shooters how they find their EVF.


RP user here - it is adequate and eventually I've adapted to it. It has its perks, like exposure simulation, which is surprisingly nice. It complements the camera decently enough for my needs, as I can gather useful information and feedback from it while shooting.

But for me, it's either that or the OVF on my 5D cameras (OVF is superior). I cannot compare it to other EVFs like on the newer R6 or R5.


----------



## mdcmdcmdc (May 24, 2022)

drift juice said:


>


Thanks for sharing that! I’m surprised by the price, I was expecting it to be at least $2K US.

I noticed, in response to some other questions/comments here, that it looks like the AF/MF switch on the front is customizable.


----------



## unfocused (May 24, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> As has been discussed here many times, the sales of a pro level crop camera were clearly not high enough to have a camera that fills this niche and that niche alone. The 7D series was never updated to a mark III, which it would have been if it followed Canon's typical timeline. Nikon's D500, while getting great reviews from reviewers and consumers, never got a newer generation update either. The fact that Canon released the 90D rather than a 7D III with specs that were not pro level, but higher than the 80D, seemed to indicate that a compromise between the two lines was the path that Canon considered profitable. So, it could be quite possible that the R7 follows the same strategy. Not 7D level, but more along the lines of the 90D.
> 
> Which, for me - and presumably many of us - would fit with who we are and what we actually need as photographers. I'm no pro, but an enthusiast that does a lot of bird photography. If the price is right (and a pro level camera would certainly be more than I can afford) than this may be a great fit. I will care about the AF system, not whether or not it has a MF/AF switch on the front of the camera (a no-brainer good idea, it seems to me). I will care about FPS (And that seems to be confirmed as plenty good enough.) I will care about size and weight - and unlike many others, I think the R7 is a very good size for those wanting something close to the R5 and R6 (just a bit smaller and lighter). The R10 would be a great option for me if the R7 is too pricey as it would be a wonderful size and weight paired with my RF 100-400. The R10 would also be very suitable size and weight wise with the RF 100-400. Not sure why this seems absurd to say, but I care image quality, size and weight, and AF ability, not the fact that is has a newly positioned back dial (seems like it might be a really good place for it. I often have a bit if trouble manipulating the second top dial. I always liked the second back dial on the 6D). I care about what the photos look like, not what the camera looks like.
> 
> ...


A very reasonable post.

In my opinion the biggest drawback with the 90D was the autofocus. It was still a step below the 7D II. When I bought it for my wife, I was disappointed and, even though I hate the phrase, it did seem like Canon "crippled" the autofocus on the 90D. It appears the R7 will have the same autofocus as the R5, which is a big improvement.

As for the controls and button locations, it seems as though Canon is still experimenting with the best controls for mirrorless. I do hope it will have the touch control screen of the R5, as I think it was a huge mistake to not include that on the R3. But, I agree that repositioning the back dial is not that big of a deal. It certainly would not deter me.

I'm a little disappointed in the viewfinder resolution, but I expect it will be just fine for most uses. 

Watching the Pangolin Tours video, I was a little surprised at the buffer size, which seemed small to me. For bird photography, it should be fine, but I can see hitting the max buffer shooting sports. 

I do hope it will have the option to add a shutter click to the electronic shutter as I find shooting completely silent to be quite disconcerting. 

The price seems very reasonable and in fact lower than I was expecting, although it does seem about right for the feature set. 

If you can afford an R5 or an R3 would this be a better choice? Not for me. But, for those who find those bodies too expensive, it does seem like a very reasonable price and for many R5 and R3 owners, it is low enough to consider as a second body if you want a crop sensor for "reach."


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 24, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> So the R3 isn’t intended for sports/action? Lol.


Perhaps I should have said ”for a sports/action camera not costing $6000.” Gotta shave those pennies somewhere.


----------



## Chaitanya (May 24, 2022)

ata bora said:


> Discover the Canon EOS R7 with Rudy Winston​


Anyone downloaded that video?


----------



## IShootBirds (May 24, 2022)

From that video it appears the AF is actually from the R3 and not the R5. That is, you can initiate tracking from any AF mode.


----------



## Act444 (May 24, 2022)

CaptureLightMedia said:


>


Seems like it's geared toward 7D shooters. Hard to really say without picking up or using the camera, or even seeing a comprehensive review of it, but from the specs listed in that video, it actually sounds like it might offer a decent package for that crowd. Only issue might be getting used to the new ergonomics. Not sure why they didn't keep the overall design and ruggedness of the R5 (or even the R6), though.


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## H. Jones (May 24, 2022)

Y'know, it really hadn't occurred to me until someone just mentioned it, but I actually would bet the R1 is the answer to professionals looking for reach. 

It's more than likely that the R1 is going to be a competitor to the A1 and have high speed FPS and super high resolution, especially when you consider that the R3 is Canon's current sports line.

So if the R1 ends up a quad-pixel 84mp sensor with 20-30+ FPS, it's going to totally occupy that high end wildlife/sports crowd that can afford $12,000 lenses, even if it's $8000.

Meanwhile, the R7 provides awesome reach in a low price for consumers who aren't as worried about 14 bit raw and just want that sweet 32mp 1.6x at 30 fps. With that in mind, as well as the R5's 1.6x mode, it makes more sense for the R7 to not be as professional as the 7D once was.


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## Jayman (May 24, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> Continue reading...


Pangolin Wildlife Photography on YouTube has hands on reviews of both the R7 and R10 posted.

R7: 




R10:


----------



## tbgtomcom (May 24, 2022)

Stig Nygaard said:


> For those who didn't see the video before it goes/went private, here's what I got:
> 
> 15mechanical/30electronic shutter
> 1/320 flash sync
> ...


I think it's time they put out a firmware update for the R5 then... why would the lesser cameras and the more expensive camera have no limit but the R5 and R6 are stuck with a 30 minute limit?? That's just nonsense.


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## info2x (May 24, 2022)

Certainly interesting. I was hoping for more from the R7, but it likely won't be a bad camera, just not what I want from it. I do like the dual card slots and high fps, but the buffer seems low as does the EVF resolution. Granted I haven't looked through it so what do I know.


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## geffy (May 24, 2022)

south africa, these youtubers have a few of the new cameras


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## Skux (May 24, 2022)

I like removing the 30 minute video limit, I record theatre occasionally and it's always annoying to have to attend to the camera between scenes.



IShootBirds said:


> Yep, the EVF is the biggest cripple hammer by far. If anyone has used the R6/R5 side by side the difference in clarity and quality is huge. So, the fact the R7 is worse than the R6 means it will be very crunchy and digital. I would love to hear from RP shooters how they find their EVF.


I use the M6 Mark II with the EVF which is 2.36m dots as well. It's fine for me since I'm almost always relying on AF, but you can't get a good feel of the actual sharpness without checking the LCD and zooming in.

Just saw the R10 preview video and the LP-E17 makes me a little sad. Together with the pop-up flash it's clear it's an entry-level camera... but for a much higher price.

On the other hand, the R7 looks like a decent upgrade for my M6ii, and I'll finally be able to use all the same batteries for my cameras.


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## hoodlum (May 24, 2022)

One more detail from the R7 video. 

Electronic 30 frames per second (12-bit RAW), mechanical 15 frames per second (14-bit RAW)


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## SnowMiku (May 24, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Pics look interesting.
> 
> Something I don't get:
> That AF/MF switch on the front side. I wouldn't want to have it there.
> ...


I would personally prefer a physical button for AF/MF, it's easier and quicker for me then going through the menu.


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## geffy (May 24, 2022)

R 10looks pants is it really the modern m50 it seems crippled to me, not like canon eh


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## Eriknoteric (May 24, 2022)

I was, and am concerned about not having a third dial on this body but I noticed that you can set the 4 way button to adjust ISO. I think for me personally if you could assign it to adjust the aperture it wouldn’t be a terrible consolation for not having the dial.


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## vjlex (May 24, 2022)

does no one read previous posts before posting?? there have been 3 or more posts to the same video in the past 2 pages (some even on the same page). sheesh!


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## H. Jones (May 24, 2022)

Eriknoteric said:


> I was, and am concerned about not having a third dial on this body but I noticed that you can set the 4 way button to adjust ISO. I think for me personally if you could assign it to adjust the aperture it wouldn’t be a terrible consolation for not having the dial.


This makes a lot of sense now actually. Not a totally bad tradeoff for a smaller form factor.

Also, pretty impressed the R10 has a joystick. Definitely more than just a mirrorless rebel, I see it as more of what the 60D was to the original 7D.


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## preppyak (May 24, 2022)

tbgtomcom said:


> I think it's time they put out a firmware update for the R5 then... why would the lesser cameras and the more expensive camera have no limit but the R5 and R6 are stuck with a 30 minute limit?? That's just nonsense.


Because there are tariffs that determine camera import pricing, and having that 30minute limit puts them in a different. Because its literally a software thing, they could undo it, but that may cause them issues since they will have then mis-classified the item they imported and sold.

Im honestly surprised at this point that every camera company hasnt just accepted that their digital cams are video cameras and just paid the difference to remove the limit. Especially since a camera with these specs has existed for over 5 years in the market (GH5, etc). The fact they are doing it with these lower priced cameras might be the sign they are finally doing so


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## Docofthewild (May 24, 2022)

Isn’t the AF/MF on the front just Canon’s topical depth of field preview button with a physical switch for AF/MF that you would need to reach over, hook a finger on and pull towards you to switch from AF to MF? I don’t think that will easily be nudged. I do think it would come in handy for me when I am using a macro lens for non macro stuff and want to quickly pull in for a macro shot.


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## rbr (May 24, 2022)

hoodlum said:


> One more detail from the R7 video.
> 
> Electronic 30 frames per second (12-bit RAW), mechanical 15 frames per second (14-bit RAW)


And you fill up the buffer after 30 shots in RAW. That's 1 second using the electronic shutter and 2 seconds with the mechanical.


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## SnowMiku (May 24, 2022)

With the R10 I was very impressed by the animal eye AF, it seems to be similar to the R3 focus system, but a bit disappointed in the small battery as the xx DSLRs had the bigger battery, but I guess they wanted to save that for the R7. I'm surprised they removed that 30min video time limit. I wonder if the R10 includes any weather sealing?

They also mentioned the R7 has some degree of weather sealing, but less then the R5 and R6. Will the 7DII users upgrade to the R7? Or have they got the R5 already?


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## AccipiterQ (May 24, 2022)

So is the R7 NOT BSI then?


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## IShootBirds (May 24, 2022)

You can shoot in CRAW Mechanical and should get over 100 frames on the buffer maybe slightly more which is probably close to 7 seconds which is more than enough on this level camera. Remember the 90D had 11fps and probably half the buffer or worse.


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## tataylino (May 24, 2022)

Reviews are out on YT. R10 estimated cost is 1,200.... too expensive for an entry level crop camera


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## shire_guy (May 24, 2022)

I wonder how the AF/MF control works on the front of the camera when a lens with a AF/MF switch is attached. Could it be the camera switch only turns of IBIS ?

Edit: Referring to the R7


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## 1D4 (May 24, 2022)

tataylino said:


> Reviews are out on YT. R10 estimated cost is 1,200.... too expensive for an entry level crop camera



Their estimate was a bit off...R10 is a hair under $1,000 USD. R7 $1,500.


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## bbanner875 (May 24, 2022)

Gofile - Free file sharing and storage platform


Gofile is a free file sharing and storage platform. You can store and share your content of any type without any limit.




gofile.io





The above link has both the intro videos, of R7 and R10, with Rudy Winston that were posted, to be made private quickly.


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## tataylino (May 24, 2022)

DPREVIEW site said it is $1100 with the 18-45. it is still expensive. I hope they can have an M50 price range R model


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## drift juice (May 24, 2022)

Pre orders up on B&H


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## RickWagoner (May 24, 2022)

No top screen, weak buffer, little weather resistance compared to the R6/R5...The R7 is a 90D replacement...


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## John Wilde (May 24, 2022)

tataylino said:


> DPREVIEW site said it is $1100 with the 18-45. it is still expensive. I hope they can have an M50 price range R model


In the mean time, it's a safe bet that the M50 line will continue.


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## RickWagoner (May 24, 2022)

Yeah the R7 has the same weather sealing as the 90D and it costs $1500. So for an extra $300 over the 90D you lose the top screen but gain a super fast focus system, dual card slots, shoot a bit faster but still have a weak buffer, and of course you lose the mirror. What a weirdly awesome camera, May not get all the 7d2 or 90D owners but it's a strong piece for crop mirrorless if you need the large body (like wildlife photographers do)


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## Kharan (May 24, 2022)

David render said:


> Canon has just bumped the sales of Sony and Nikon, these cameras are a pile of crap, I've used canon since 1980, I'm buying a Nikon Z9, and dumping my R5, these cameras are a scam, using a three year old sensor, and the screen and view finder are out of a child's toy. Is it April the first or something, these are a pile of scrap. Well done canon, you're driving your customers to Nikon and Sony.


You realize that the sensors on the A6100/6400/6600 and Z50/Zfc are 5 years old at least, right? And they have the same EVF resolution or worse, and worse screen resolution. Also, they don't shoot as fast, have video recording limits, and worse thermal architecture...
I mean, I'm usually hyper-critical of Canon. I see fault in everything they do. But the release of the R7/10 is, if anything, a massive kick in *everyone's* collective asses. Sony, Nikon and even Fujifilm. They've been slacking.


----------



## Kharan (May 24, 2022)

IShootBirds said:


> Yep, the EVF is the biggest cripple hammer by far. If anyone has used the R6/R5 side by side the difference in clarity and quality is huge. So, the fact the R7 is worse than the R6 means it will be very crunchy and digital. I would love to hear from RP shooters how they find their EVF.


Not necessarily. I'm far from the most refined EVF connoisseur (if it's 2.36 Mdots or higher, I'm good), but the RP's one weakness, for me, is its slow refresh rate. It looks like Canon are driving the displays on both the R10 and R7 much quicker, probably 120 FPS in performance mode, and that would be more than enough.


----------



## C4RBON (May 24, 2022)

The-Digital-Picture has reviews up for the R7 and R10:









Canon EOS R7 Review


Is the Canon EOS R7 Digital Mirrorless Camera right for you? Learn all you need to know about the Canon EOS R7 in The-Digital-Picture.com's review!




www.the-digital-picture.com












Canon EOS R10 Review


Is the Canon EOS R10 Digital Mirrorless Camera right for you? Learn all you need to know about the Canon EOS R10 in The-Digital-Picture.com's review!




www.the-digital-picture.com





I'm excited for this feature on the R7 to make its way to future FF cameras:

"Get this: the R7 has a new feature enabled by the IBIS. For most images, I want my camera perfectly horizontally level — no roll. Cameras have long featured a super-helpful electronic level that was game-changing for those of us with HLDS (Horizon Level Deficiency Syndrome). With the graphic aid shown in the viewfinder or on the rear LCD, the camera could be adjusted until the indicator showed level.

The R7 takes that feature to the next step, providing an Auto-level option that uses the imaging sensor's rotation capability to level the shot automatically. The optical path is circular, so rotating the sensor to a level position (within its degree of capability) results in a normal image that is level even when the camera is not quite so. Auto level is also a great asset to both still and video recording. I love it."


----------



## Wesley (May 24, 2022)

Kharan said:


> You realize that the sensors on the A6100/6400/6600 and Z50/Zfc are 5 years old at least, right? And they have the same EVF resolution or worse, and worse screen resolution. Also, they don't shoot as fast, have video recording limits, and worse thermal architecture...
> I mean, I'm usually hyper-critical of Canon. I see fault in everything they do. But the release of the R7/10 is, if anything, a massive kick in *everyone's* collective asses. Sony, Nikon and even Fujifilm. They've been slacking.



I've done a video stress test with the A6400 and it recorded for 5 hours straight with a power bank + internal battery and the LCD screen closed. It would definitely record longer if a larger power bank was used. 

As the Canon cameras are 3 years newer, I would expect them to be faster at the very least.


----------



## C4RBON (May 24, 2022)

From The-Digital-Picture:









Hands-On Reviews: Canon EOS R7 & R10; More RF-S 18-45mm & 18-150mm Lenses Information


Hands-On Reviews: Canon EOS R7 & R10; More RF-S 18-45mm & 18-150mm Lenses Information — The-Digital-Picture.com




www.the-digital-picture.com





*"The EOS M series remains highly popular and is not discontinued — the R10 is not a replacement for the M6 II."*


----------



## Chaitanya (May 24, 2022)

Here are full buffer specs of R7, quite disappointing buffer depth plus lack of CFx slot means its going to be long write times to card from buffer.



Edit: link to detailed spec list: 


https://downloads.canon.com/notthistime/cameras/better/EOSR7_specifications-5-22.pdf


----------



## vjlex (May 24, 2022)

As far as I can tell, no one on here has posted this video yet. The R7 looks like a winner to me!


----------



## vjlex (May 24, 2022)

Just FYI for anyone else buying in Japan:

197,780 yen R7 body only
246,180 yen for R7 RF-S 18-150mm lens kit



> 直販価格は、ボディ単体が197,780円、「EOS R7・RF-S18-150 IS STM レンズキット」が246,180円。











価格.com - キヤノン、3250万画素のAPS-Cミラーレス最上位「EOS R7」


キヤノンは、RFマウントを採用する「EOSRシステム」のAPS-Cミラーレスカメラのハイエンドモデル「EOSR7」を発表。ボディ単体と「EOSR7・RF-S18-150ISSTMレンズキット」をラインアップし、6月下旬より発売する。ミラー...




news.kakaku.com







128,480 yen R10 body only
143,880 yen for R7 RF-S 18-45mm lens kit
176,880 yen for R7 RF-S 18-150mm lens kit



> 「EOS R10」ボディ単体が128,480円、「EOS R10・RF-S18-45 IS STM レンズキット」が143,880円、「EOS R10・RF-S18-150 IS STM レンズキット」が176,880円。











価格.com - キヤノン、RFマウントの小型・軽量APS-Cミラーレスカメラ「EOS R10」


キヤノンは、小型・軽量ボディが特徴のAPS-Cサイズミラーレスカメラ「EOSR10」を発表した。ボディ単体、および「EOSR10・RF-S18-45ISSTMレンズキット」（「RF-S18-45mmF4.5-6.3ISSTM」同梱）、「E...




news.kakaku.com


----------



## xelaq (May 24, 2022)

C4RBON said:


> *"The EOS M series remains highly popular and is not discontinued — the R10 is not a replacement for the M6 II."*


I really hope it's true, but i wonder how these two systems could exists side by side. Where is the line between the two? If Canon only released the R7 then it woulf be clear, but the R10 makes it messy.

Speaking of the R10: why would you buy it of there is the RP or something like the Fuji X-S10 which offers more in a more mature APS-C system...


----------



## EOS 4 Life (May 24, 2022)

CJudge said:


> Here's hoping this is a sign that the next firmware update to the R5/6 will include a removing of the 30 limit record limit.


I would not hold my breath


----------



## AlP (May 24, 2022)

The RF-S18-150mm F3.5-6.3 IS STM seems to have the exactly same optical construction as the EF-M version. The MTF seems copy paste.

And while the latter is a nice lens for the M-system, this is not the kind of zoom one would pair with a typical 7D/D500 replacement, so that might tell where Canon sees the market for the R7


----------



## EOS 4 Life (May 24, 2022)

pauloancarvalho said:


> I have a Canon EOS R and a R5 C and I'm a video first guy. Should I get a Canon R6 to use the same battery grip and smallrig cage as the R5 C or should I go with the R7? Something tells me the R6 is a better option even for video, but that "recording no limit" and possibly no overheating is interesting. I still think the Canon R6 is a better option to optimise the grip and cage/similar ergonomics.


I would go with the R7 for sure. The rolling shutter in the R6 is a bit slow.


----------



## dirtyvu (May 24, 2022)

Dan Watson and his wife couldn't be more effusive of the new cameras!


----------



## dilbert (May 24, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> Continue reading...



EOS-M was successful for a reason. The R7 & R10 do not capture that reason.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (May 24, 2022)

David render said:


> Canon has just bumped the sales of Sony and Nikon, these cameras are a pile of crap, I've used canon since 1980, I'm buying a Nikon Z9, and dumping my R5, these cameras are a scam, using a three year old sensor, and the screen and view finder are out of a child's toy. Is it April the first or something, these are a pile of scrap. Well done canon, you're driving your customers to Nikon and Sony.


My favorite part of Canon releasing new cameras is all the insightful comments from new users on CR...


----------



## dilbert (May 24, 2022)

lote82 said:


> So what? Is Canon doo*** again?



Not unless the EOS-M market is significant enough in size. Will wait and see if Canon attempt to plug that hole in the market or just leave it, hoping for people to go for a bigger camera.


----------



## SnowMiku (May 24, 2022)

I read a bit of the R7 review and there is no option for the battery grip, interesting decision.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (May 24, 2022)

preppyak said:


> Because there are tariffs that determine camera import pricing, and having that 30minute limit puts them in a different. Because its literally a software thing, they could undo it, but that may cause them issues since they will have then mis-classified the item they imported and sold.
> 
> Im honestly surprised at this point that every camera company hasnt just accepted that their digital cams are video cameras and just paid the difference to remove the limit. Especially since a camera with these specs has existed for over 5 years in the market (GH5, etc). The fact they are doing it with these lower priced cameras might be the sign they are finally doing so


That tarrif sunset before the R3 came out


----------



## Chaitanya (May 24, 2022)

dilbert said:


> Not unless the EOS-M market is significant enough in size. Will wait and see if Canon attempt to plug that hole in the market or just leave it, hoping for people to go for a bigger camera.


Depends on how new RF-S lenses come out, if Canon releases an EF-S 55-250 equivalent for RF-S and sells a 2 lens kit for R10 then I can see R10 replacing EOS XX0D series of cameras here in South Asia.


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## blackcoffee17 (May 24, 2022)

The R7 feels a bit meh! In some ways it looks great, price is ok but feels like a missed opportunity. Low res EVF, ugly 4 way controller, soft 4K 60p.
And the lenses...disappointing. Where is a decent bright APS-C zoom or wideangle? For the M at least we had a tiny and cheap 22mm pancake,
for these the only option is the much bigger and more expensive 35mm RF.


----------



## bf (May 24, 2022)

My impressions: R7 vs. R10 have r5 vs r6 or m5 vs m50 philosophy of spec development.
Comparing 18-150 between efm and rfs mounts (on bh): RFS lens is $20 cheaper and 10g heavier! Will we see the remaining efm lenses transformed to rfs? 22f2, 11-22 etc.

No rangefinder body! While this might be attractive for an R user, still not a replacement for eos m6 user! I'll be also curious about a rangefinder, full-frame, R camera!


----------



## adrian_bacon (May 24, 2022)

I went to Canon's website and looked at them (now that they're officially announced). Looks like the the R7 is a mirrorless 90D and digic X processor with IBIS and upgraded video capabilities (Canon Log3). Not meant to be the 90D replacement, but instead the 7DII replacement using the 90D sensor (no BSI, etc). Not exactly cutting edge, but a good combination for birders, etc, and still very performant. I'm confused about the apparent lack of a battery grip accessory though. Even the 80D/90D/7D series had that. Maybe Canon hasn't announced that yet, or maybe the existing grip for the R6/R5 will also work with it. For a "pro level" it's a bit weird that there isn't one out of the gate.

The R10 looks like either the 80D or M50MkII or 77D sensor paired with Digic X. No dual card slots, no IBIS, smaller battery, more pedestrian features. etc. Smacks of entry level digital rebel, which is totally fine. At less than $1K, they'll sell a lot of them.

The R7 strikes me as the 7D line replacement and the R10 the rebel line replacement, which leaves the 80D/90D line ambiguous. Granted, the 90D blew the doors off the 7DII in many ways, but still was missing "pro level" features like dual card slots, so the R7 with dual card slots tells me this body is the "pro level" APS-C. Maybe there isn't enough differentiation between the 80D/90D and 7D series in mirrorless land to make doing a mirrorless version of them worth it, which I'd actually be fine with too as the R7 is literally a $300 difference from the 90D, so maybe the R7 is a merged 7D/90D line and what they have now is all the differentiation that will happen except maybe at some point the EF-M line replacment.

All in all, a good RF APS-C initial level set. It'll only go up from here.


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## Jonathan Thill (May 24, 2022)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The R7 feels a bit meh! In some ways it looks great, price is ok but feels like a missed opportunity. Low res EVF, ugly 4 way controller, soft 4K 60p.
> And the lenses...disappointing. Where is a decent bright APS-C zoom or wideangle? For the M at least we had a tiny and cheap 22mm pancake,
> for these the only option is the much bigger and more expensive 35mm RF.


16mm 2.8? 50mm 1.8? 14-35 f4?


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

The naysayers really are out in force! Here is an extra couple of good points for the R7:
1. Price gouging in UK has dropped to only 6% vs EU from 11% and is about the same as the US price.
2. There is a 15 shot burst pre mode for half pressed shutter at last.

The price is unexpectedly low, I was expecting R6 levels. It's on my shopping list. According to the Japanese website, availability late June.


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## HMC11 (May 24, 2022)

Not sure if it is already been mentioned. It seems that the pricing for R7 and R10 are as follows:
R7: 1350pound, 1650Euros & US$1500; R10: 900pounds, 1080Euros, US$980


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## canonnews (May 24, 2022)

Well it's interesting.

As a 30+ year Canon user - I hate the R7. There's absolutely no way i wanted that dial repositioned. Who thought of that idea? Even the muscle memory switching between R10 and R7 would be a pain in the ass. I'm not sure what the wisdom there was. Why didn't they just shove in the 1 series joystick and leave the rest of the ergos "canon standard" This reminds me of the failed MFbar on the EOS R.

The R7 and R10 look good specwise- but I would have rather had clear matching ergonomics like we "almost" had with the EF lineup with the 5D/6D and 7D/90D. They aren't "new" sensors. maybe manufacturered on a different design rule, but essentially they are the same. DIGIC X has more of an impact on how much data the camera can handle.

These two bodies caught me totally out in left field. I can't believe my judgment was so far off on this. I assumed Canon ergos to follow the R5 and R6. I didn't expect some nutbar to take over design.

The 18-45? that's just a hot mess. Nice and small and maybe it's just the same as the 15-45 but they stopped at 18 because QA is just so difficult from 15 to 18? but a 29mm to 75mm certainly isn't a nice range I want in the year 2022, not when it's competition is at 24mm. The 15-45mm once you got a good one on the EF-M was a really nice lens. Seeing that range now limited to a cerca 1990 zoom range? ick.

The 18-150 on the EF-M I loved. So I'm really interested in how this lens does. The magnification sounds fantastic. it's literally a "do-all" travel lens. if it's good - it's the lens that will sell an RF APS-C camera for me. But until there's an RF-S 11-22mm I'm certainly not moving from EOS-M

EOS-M killers? doubtful. I think they made them "just" enough different to ensure that they are not.

I'll be writing up an article on CN about this - I'll have to ask CR if he still wants me posting in here  at least there's something to talk about on Canon Land. It's certainly been slow.

oh and vote please  (Shameless plug)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1528978129997287424


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## blackcoffee17 (May 24, 2022)

Ramage said:


> 16mm 2.8? 50mm 1.8? 14-35 f4?



The 14-35 costs more than the R7 and it's not even ultrawide.


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## SnowMiku (May 24, 2022)

I have noticed that some places in Australia have the R10 for cheaper then the 90D, and the R10 comes with either an EF-RF adapter or a spare battery by redemption from Canon. The kit lens is the RF-S 18-150mm. My M5 and EF-M 18-150mm is great for portability and people don't assume I'm a "professional photographer"


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## Abbuzze (May 24, 2022)

The 18-45 seems to be a limited EF-M 15-45mm. No Idea why canon starts which such a limited Lense. The 15mm are real usefull at EOS M. If there are Image quality problems with this lense, they should the job right an build a new one. Instead of 18-45mm, Nikon offers a 16-50mm, and this lense ist even smaller!


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

canonnews said:


> Well it's interesting.
> 
> As a 30+ year Canon user - I hate the R7. There's absolutely no way i wanted that dial repositioned. Who thought of that idea? Even the muscle memory switching between R10 and R7 would be a pain in the ass. I'm not sure what the wisdom there was.


As a 55+ year Canon user - I reckon you youngsters are too set in your ways and don't have the mental adaptability of us more forward looking and modern seniors!


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## SnowMiku (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> As a 55+ year Canon user - I reckon you youngsters are too set in your ways and don't have the mental adaptability of us more forward looking and modern seniors!


I agree, the position of the wheel and joystick on the R7 looks more ergonomic to me.


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## canonnews (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> As a 55+ year Canon user - I reckon you youngsters are too set in your ways and don't have the mental adaptability of us more forward looking and modern seniors!


canon didn't really settle on an ergonomic final path until the death throes of FD though. which was the point.

since the start of EF Digital the control wheel on all Canon cameras have all been roughly in the same position.

Also people have more than one camera body. Consistency "used" to be a relatively good point about Canon - however they have never gone so far out to left field as this camera. 

Switching from an R7 to an R5 in the field will not be as easy as switching from a 7D to a 5D. It should be.

But good on you for thinking I'm a youngster.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 24, 2022)

AlP said:


> The RF-S18-150mm F3.5-6.3 IS STM seems to have the exactly same optical construction as the EF-M version. The MTF seems copy paste.
> 
> And while the latter is a nice lens for the M-system, this is not the kind of zoom one would pair with a typical 7D/D500 replacement, so that might tell where Canon sees the market for the R7


Or maybe they see the R7 for people who will mostly use long teles like the 100–500L, but want something small and compact for occasional travel/general purpose use.


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## SnowMiku (May 24, 2022)

One minor annoyance with Mirrorless compared to the DSLR for me is with the M5 I keep on bumping the buttons and turning on the EVF or LCD by accident, I've got into the habit of turning the switch off with the M5 to avoid wasting the battery, with the DSLR this didn't matter so I just leave it on through the whole shoot.


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

canonnews said:


> canon didn't really settle on an ergonomic final path until the death throes of FD though. which was the point.
> 
> since the start of EF Digital the control wheel on all Canon cameras have all been roughly in the same position.
> 
> ...


Agreed it's the easiest thing to flit from one body to the next if they have the same ergonomics and menus, and I've done that with Canon over the years. Did people cry foul when Canon ditched the Mode Dial on the R5 for a function button because they had lost the old muscle memory? Like many here, I alternate between an R6 and R5 and have muscle memory for both. Lots of us have more than one system and manage. If you don't change you don't evolve and eventually join the dinosaurs.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> As a 55+ year Canon user - I reckon you youngsters are too set in your ways and don't have the mental adaptability of us more forward looking and modern seniors!


As a 40 year Canon user, I’m pretty excited about the R7. Ergonomics always change and we humans are pretty good at adapting to new ways of doing things.

I can live with the compromises Canon made for the price point. It would be a lot harder for me to justify buying a body that did everything everybody has been hoping for but cost $2500–3000.

This is actually a very competitive offering from Canon. Compare it to the Sony a6600 or Fuji X-T4. It’s in the same price range but beats them both on features.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 24, 2022)

Any word on kits? Love to get an 18-150 with it.


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## lote82 (May 24, 2022)

I was quite disappointed when I saw the final specs of the R7. Odd ergonomics, low res viewfinder and no BSI-sensor were downers ... 
But after reading and watching the first reviews I changed my mind. There will never be the perfect camera. I think Canon did a very good job making a good compromise between 90D and 7D. As a ambitious hobbyist and regarding the surprisingly(!) low price I am more than happy!


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## jam05 (May 24, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> As a 40 year Canon user, I’m pretty excited about the R7. Ergonomics always change and we humans are pretty good at adapting to new ways of doing things.
> 
> I can live with the compromises Canon made for the price point. It would be a lot harder for me to justify buying a body that did everything everybody has been hoping for but cost $2500–3000.
> 
> This is actually a very competitive offering from Canon. Compare it to the Sony a6600 or Fuji X-T4. It’s in the same price range but beats them both on features.


What was touted here on CR as has been for over a decade, is the end to the M-series. This is not it. Neither of these cameras will replace the mirroless compact M6 mk II. At best Canon has replaced a few Rebels. The average consumers will still say "why when there are smaller compact options"


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> Any word on kits? Love to get an 18-150 with it.


Yes, it comes with 18-150 for an extra £350 in the UK and about the same number of $ and €.
ps that's about a saving of £150 on buying separately.


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## Pierre Lagarde (May 24, 2022)

canonnews said:


> This reminds me of the failed MFbar on the EOS R.


It may be even worse, because there may be no other dial left for easy exposure compensation if you feel forced to disable it.
I must say it's the first time I feel so "held back" by a feature.
I'm waiting for the user manual to see if it can be combined with held m-Fn button (or anything else) to lock/unlock it at will.
It could be ok in the field as we don't need to have unwilled exposure changes to interfere, but still, you'd be losing one button for this purpose.
But still, there is another point that is more important to me and it's the prominent shape of the "housing" of this dial : for instance, I love the way you can easily change mode with thumb on R6. This dial shaping out up of the body probably prevents from being able to do so. I bet this shape can be uncomfortable for other reasons when camera is in hand. However, a real test in the field is needed to figure this out.
At first sight at least, it really looks like ergonomists at Canon missed things (or just tried without thinking at least twice)... why didn't they simply keep the ergonomics of the R6? Adding the Iso button is a good thing though but it could have been done with R6 ergonomics as well (and would probably have been enough to have it done the right way).
Also, adding the MF/AF switch looks a bit "outdated" to me. On Nikon DSLRs I sometimes felt like using it with older AF-D lenses that can't override AF, but never with modern lenses. But maybe there could be other usages I miss. It's true that some lenses protections can hinder easy access to AM-MF button on the lens.
At this right point, this announcement and specs make me think we're more in need of a R6/R5 firmware update that adds "any starting boxe shapes" ability on tracking AF, as in the R3 and in these two new models.


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## canonmike (May 24, 2022)

While the R7 may not have a hoped for BSI sensor or super high res EVF, when I saw the low price I immed went on B&H and pre-ordered my copy. Can't wait to try it out for wildlife and sports. My only disappointment is no battery grip available at launch. I do hope that we don't have to wait 11 mos for the grip like we had to wait for the poorly supported tripod mount collar for the RF 100mm macro lens.


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## SnowMiku (May 24, 2022)

canonmike said:


> While the R7 may not have a hoped for BSI sensor or super high res EVF, when I saw the low price I immed went on B&H and pre-ordered my copy. Can't wait to try it out for wildlife and sports. My only disappointment is no battery grip available at launch. I do hope that we don't have to wait 11 mos for the grip like we had to wait for the poorly supported tripod mount collar for the RF 100mm macro lens.


According to the review on thedigitalpicture, there is no grip positioning holes for a battery grip.


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## SnowMiku (May 24, 2022)

I hope the R10 and R7 won't have the same firmware freezing issues like the other RF bodies.


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

SnowMiku said:


> I hope the R10 and R7 won't have the same firmware freezing issues like the other RF bodies.


They'll add some extra, just for you (Apologies to Philip Larkin).


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## Pierre Lagarde (May 24, 2022)

lote82 said:


> I was quite disappointed when I saw the final specs of the R7. Odd ergonomics, low res viewfinder and no BSI-sensor were downers ...
> But after reading and watching the first reviews I changed my mind. There will never be the perfect camera. I think Canon did a very good job making a good compromise between 90D and 7D. As a ambitious hobbyist and regarding the surprisingly(!) low price I am more than happy!


I won't agree on all your global impression, but I can confirm that the sensor, if it's the same as in M6 markII, is still one of the best you can find in an APS-C camera, and it's one of the good ideas to have kept it here, whatever can say naysayers about the lack of BSI. However, the R7 market positioning is coherent with the fact they won't probably be making an APS-C camera that would be detrimental to the R5 sales. I'm still not sure we'll see a real 7D line replacement, (i.e. a real high-end APS-C), in the R line-up.


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## Deleted member 381342 (May 24, 2022)

The R7 feels more like a new 90D than what I would expect of the 7D line. A successor to the 7D should be more of a baby R3 or at least matching the R5 in build.


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## vangelismm (May 24, 2022)

The rules created by some users here, stated that EF-m is not allowed to have fast zoom lens because the form factor have to remain small.
And now we have slow apsc zoom on RF, with bigger cameras than the M system.


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

jam05 said:


> What was touted here on CR as has been for over a decade, is the end to the M-series. This is not it. Neither of these cameras will replace the mirroless compact M6 mk II. At best Canon has replaced a few Rebels. The average consumers will still say "why when there are smaller compact options"


Absolutely. IF current Rebel/xxxD users move to an R10 (a big if), DSLRs will be phased out. This may be the beginning of that process, but the price of the R10 guarantees it won’t close down DSLRs or the M series. 

Those who claim the M line is dead are ignoring reality. Sadly, that’s a common failing these days.


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

vangelismm said:


> The rules created by some users here, stated that EF-m is not allowed to have fast zoom lens because the form factor have to remain small.
> And now we have slow apsc zoom on RF, with bigger cameras than the M system.


You can put any fast RF zoom on the R7 and R10 just as you could any fast EF zoom on an M with an adapter.


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

SnowMiku said:


> According to the review on thedigitalpicture, there is no grip positioning holes for a battery grip.


Ouch. Not that I have any interest in buying an R7, but if I did this would kill the deal for me.


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## lote82 (May 24, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ouch. Not that I have any interest in buying an R7, but if I did this would kill the deal for me.


Ouch. Not that I have any interest in buying any M-camera, but if I did the M6 II would be the one ... oh wait ... there is no M6 II anymore!


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## dilbert (May 24, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> Depends on how new RF-S lenses come out, if Canon releases an EF-S 55-250 equivalent for RF-S and sells a 2 lens kit for R10 then I can see R10 replacing EOS XX0D series of cameras here in South Asia.



EOS-M is not EOS XX0D.


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## xelaq (May 24, 2022)

So after reading a bit more about these cameras I not so sure where to place the R10.

The R7 seems pretty straightforward and actually well priced for what it offers. Even if some hoped for a more pro body I think it is a nice balance of features (as lote82 pointed out).

But the R10? IMO too expensive to replace the rebels, but also not a sports or wildlife camera (buffer, weather sealing, battery etc.). There is the RP for the same price which IMO makes more sense, even if its missing some of the new features like 4k video, better AF etc. Nikon Z5 is also not far of price wise. So who is this camera for? What are the competitors? Where does this leave EF-M? It is not so clear for me right now.


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## Sharlin (May 24, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> Here are full buffer specs of R7, quite disappointing buffer depth


Ehh, how exactly is *over ten seconds of shooting* *32MP (C)RAWs* at *15 frigging fps* disappointing? People's expectations are just insane these days…


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## Sharlin (May 24, 2022)

xelaq said:


> But the R10? IMO too expensive to replace the rebels, but also not a sports or wildlife camera (buffer, weather sealing, battery etc.). There is the RP for the same price which IMO makes more sense, even if its missing some of the new features like 4k video, better AF etc. Nikon Z5 is also not far of price wise. So who is this camera for? What are the competitors? Where does this leave EF-M? It is not so clear for me right now.


It's a compact jack of all trades that can be used with tiny lenses (unlike the RP) but is still compatible with the whole growing RF system. I find that actually not a bad value proposition at all. And the vastly improved AF and burst speed compared to the RP, never mind a honestly better sensor, make it in many respects the more competent camera of the two. If you want a DSLR analogy, I'd say it's closest to a 77D successor.


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## Etienne (May 24, 2022)

No in-body stabilization for the R10, a camera very likely to be used with the small unstabilized primes.
I'll never understand Canon's stinginess with features. In-body stabilization should be a standard feature of every interchangeable lens camera now, especially when IS is not offered in the small primes.


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## xelaq (May 24, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> It's a compact jack of all trades that can be used with tiny lenses (unlike the RP) but is still compatible with the whole growing RF system. I find that actually not a bad value proposition at all. And the vastly improved AF and burst speed compared to the RP, never mind a honestly better sensor, make it in many respects the more competent camera of the two. If you want a DSLR analogy, I'd say it's closest to a 77D successor.


I guess that makes sense. We will have to see what the future brings. Maybe an affordable wide angle 11-22 or similar for the wide end, and a 70-300 for the long end? It could be a nice APS-C system if Canon wants to. Shame about the missing IBIS tho, that would make it way more attractive for video. Lens IS only goes so far


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## Sharlin (May 24, 2022)

Etienne said:


> No in-body stabilization for the R10, a camera very likely to be used with the small unstabilized primes.
> I'll never understand Canon's stinginess with features.


You really think it would be a $1000 camera if it had IBIS? Maybe the next iteration will… Besides, it's certainly not "very likely" that most people who buy one will use it with primes.


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## EOS 4 Life (May 24, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> the 7DII replacement using the 90D


Canon states that the sensor in the R7 is brand new


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## Chaitanya (May 24, 2022)

dilbert said:


> EOS-M is not EOS XX0D.


in India I havent seen many people buying EOS-M as much as they bought XX0D series of cameras. R10 visually looks like a XX0D series of camera down to button placement and I suspect most consumers going to shop for camera will end up buying R10. 



Sharlin said:


> Ehh, how exactly is *over ten seconds of shooting* *32MP (C)RAWs* at *15 frigging fps* disappointing? People's expectations are just insane these days…


I didnt see cRAW no. was looking at RAW no. which seem for both mechanical shutter and electronic shutter are quite low. Only times I really use high speed shooting is to take photos of male frogs calling to get clear image of their vocal sacs fully inflated to clear mess left behind while describing morphology of said species of frog/toad. For those I do need 3-5 secs of buffer just to get that moment right.


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## Joules (May 24, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> in India I havent seen many people buying EOS-M as much as they bought XX0D series of cameras. R10 visually looks like a XX0D series of camera down to button placement and I suspect most consumers going to shop for camera will end up buying R10.
> 
> 
> I didnt see cRAW no. was looking at RAW no. which seem for both mechanical shutter and electronic shutter are quite low. Only times I really use high speed shooting is to take photos of male frogs calling to get clear image of their vocal sacs fully inflated to clear mess left behind while describing morphology of said species of frog/toad. For those I do need 3-5 secs of buffer just to get that moment right.


If it's just about getting a certain moment, you should be able to simply use the new half press pre-burst mode, which as far as I understand takes images continously and only saves those from the 0.5 seconds _just before_ you pressed the shutter.

0.5s is not much though. If that's the only setting and the viewfinder lag is noticeable, it might be a somewhat risky approach.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Yes, it comes with 18-150 for an extra £350 in the UK and about the same number of $ and €.
> ps that's about a saving of £150 on buying separately.


Yep. I saw it on the BH site. It’s an extra $400 here in the US, not a great savings from the $480 list, but it’s something.


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> Yep. I saw it on the BH site. It’s an extra $400 here in the US, not a great savings from the $480 list, but it’s something.


Canon's pricing is odd. The kit with the 18-150mm is much better value in the UK than in the US relative to the body alone. I have pre-ordered the kit.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 24, 2022)

jam05 said:


> What was touted here on CR as has been for over a decade, is the end to the M-series. This is not it. Neither of these cameras will replace the mirroless compact M6 mk II. At best Canon has replaced a few Rebels. The average consumers will still say "why when there are smaller compact options"


You sound disappointed that they didn’t announce the discontinuation of all M series today also. 

As for “why”, my answer is performance, fast AF, UHS-II slots, and compatibility with RF lenses. Size was never a consideration for me in choosing APS-C (except when I bought an M5 for traveling).


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## xelaq (May 24, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> You really think it would be a $1000 camera if it had IBIS? Maybe the next iteration will… Besides, it's certainly not "very likely" that most people who buy one will use it with primes.


I mean it would be a good way to distinguish yourself from the competition.

Also IBIS in cheaper cameras is not unheard of, as M43 shows (while tbh these IBIS units are probably a bit cheaper to manufacture).


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## tbgtomcom (May 24, 2022)

preppyak said:


> Because there are tariffs that determine camera import pricing, and having that 30minute limit puts them in a different. Because its literally a software thing, they could undo it, but that may cause them issues since they will have then mis-classified the item they imported and sold.
> 
> Im honestly surprised at this point that every camera company hasnt just accepted that their digital cams are video cameras and just paid the difference to remove the limit. Especially since a camera with these specs has existed for over 5 years in the market (GH5, etc). The fact they are doing it with these lower priced cameras might be the sign they are finally doing so


So the tariffs only apply to the R5/R6 and not the R3/R7/R10? That makes no sense.


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

tbgtomcom said:


> So the tariffs only apply to the R5/R6 and not the R3/R7/R10? That makes no sense.


The 30 minute regulation was dropped by the EU for all cameras a few years back.


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## tbgtomcom (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> The 30 minute regulation was dropped by the EU for all cameras a few years back.


Exactly my point. Why can't they just go ahead and release a firmware update to unlock the R5/R6 then since ALL the other cameras in the new lineup have the limitation removed. Aggravating.


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

There have been a host of brilliantly thought out reasons by the deepest thinkers here why the R7 is pure garbage. But, they have all missed the fundamental flaw. The lifetime of the mechanical shutter is 200,000 actuations. At 15 fps, that is only 3h 42min of actual shooting. So, for a days birding, I will wear out one in the morning and need a new one in the afternoon. Perhaps, they have reduced the burst size so it will last longer?


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## Joules (May 24, 2022)

tbgtomcom said:


> So the tariffs only apply to the R5/R6 and not the R3/R7/R10? That makes no sense.


They don't apply at all anymore. Source

The limits in most modern Canon cameras are there because Canon has some reason to leave them in. Be it differentiation against the Cinema line or pure laziness. We don't know.


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## Joules (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> There have been a host of brilliantly thought out reasons by the deepest thinkers here why the R7 is pure garbage. But, they have all missed the fundamental flaw. The lifetime of the mechanical shutter is 200,000 actuations. At 15 fps, that is only 3h 42min of actual shooting. So, for a days birding, I will wear out one in the morning and need a new one in the afternoon.


Don't forget that the R7 has a buffer that is too small to store a meaningful amount of images according to those brilliant thinkers you mentioned. So you'll only be shooting 15 fps for tiny fraction of the time, before the buffer fills and speed drops to a crawl. So you can wear out your shutter at a more leisurely pace over much more than just 3.75 hours.


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## Kharan (May 24, 2022)

xelaq said:


> So after reading a bit more about these cameras I not so sure where to place the R10.
> 
> The R7 seems pretty straightforward and actually well priced for what it offers. Even if some hoped for a more pro body I think it is a nice balance of features (as lote82 pointed out).
> 
> But the R10? IMO too expensive to replace the rebels, but also not a sports or wildlife camera (buffer, weather sealing, battery etc.). There is the RP for the same price which IMO makes more sense, even if its missing some of the new features like 4k video, better AF etc. Nikon Z5 is also not far of price wise. So who is this camera for? What are the competitors? Where does this leave EF-M? It is not so clear for me right now.


I can give you a list of reasons to choose the R10:

Smallest and lightest available RF body. That counts a lot for some of us.
Fully-developed ergonomics vís-a-vís the competition, like the A6400, Z50, and the M6II.
Plenty fast burst, indeed faster than even much more expensive bodies like the E-M1X, GH5II or A6600.
Better dynamic range than the RP. Also infinitely faster.
Unlimited, oversampled 4K recording at 10-bit (!).
*Fully articulated screen*.
The same advanced hot shoe that is on the R3 and R5C.
Decent battery life.
You get all of this for less than $1,000.
I say it's going to be a big success... well, as big a success can be in these new dark ages of photography. It'll kill almost every Rebel except the T7, which still sees some sales in emergent markets. EF-M is dead as well, except for the M50II, which will probably continue to be sold until ~2024, at which point either the R10 will be discounted, or another, lower-end body will be introduced. The combination of class-leading AF and burst rate, FAS, unlimited 4K, and access to both RF and EF lenses will make it popular. You're probably only thinking of stills, but stills-focused cameras just don't sell that much today. As a hybrid, however, it has a lot of value packed in there.


----------



## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

Joules said:


> Don't forget that the R7 has a buffer that is too small to store a meaningful amount of images according to those brilliant thinkers you mentioned. So you'll only be shooting 15 fps for tiny fraction of the time, before the buffer fills and speed drops to a crawl. So you can wear out your shutter at a more leisurely pace over much more than just 3.75 hours.


I had edited my post as you were writing this. Sorry!


----------



## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

xelaq said:


> So after reading a bit more about these cameras I not so sure where to place the R10.
> 
> The R7 seems pretty straightforward and actually well priced for what it offers. Even if some hoped for a more pro body I think it is a nice balance of features (as lote82 pointed out).
> 
> But the R10? IMO too expensive to replace the rebels, but also not a sports or wildlife camera (buffer, weather sealing, battery etc.). There is the RP for the same price which IMO makes more sense, even if its missing some of the new features like 4k video, better AF etc. Nikon Z5 is also not far of price wise. So who is this camera for? What are the competitors? Where does this leave EF-M? It is not so clear for me right now.


At launch, the RP with the non -L kit lens was $1700. The R10 with 18-45 kit lens is $1100.

Given the apparent downmarketing on badge/numbering but increasing prices of the lines (90D + $300 = R7), the R10 looks like a step towards the eventual R100 or R1000 that will eventually become price-competitive with entry-level DSLRs (which still comprise nearly half of the cameras that Canon sells).


----------



## xelaq (May 24, 2022)

Kharan said:


> I say it's going to be a big success... well, as big a success can be in these new dark ages of photography. It'll kill almost every Rebel except the T7, which still sees some sales in emergent markets. EF-M is dead as well, except for the M50II, which will probably continue to be sold until ~2024, at which point either the R10 will be discounted, or another, lower-end body will be introduced. The combination of class-leading AF and burst rate, FAS, unlimited 4K, and access to both RF and EF lenses will make it popular. You're probably only thinking of stills, but stills-focused cameras just don't sell that much today. As a hybrid, however, it has a lot of value packed in there.





neuroanatomist said:


> At launch, the RP with the non -L kit lens was $1700. The R10 with 18-45 kit lens is $1100.
> 
> Given the apparent downmarketing on badge/numbering but increasing prices of the lines (90D + $300 = R7), the R10 looks like a step towards the eventual R100 or R1000 that will eventually become price-competitive with entry-level DSLRs (which still comprise nearly half of the cameras that Canon sells).


There are a lot of good reasons here, cheers. If it had IBIS i would preorder now.

Without I need to see if I can convince my wife that the R7 is worth it


----------



## Hector1970 (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> There have been a host of brilliantly thought out reasons by the deepest thinkers here why the R7 is pure garbage. But, they have all missed the fundamental flaw. The lifetime of the mechanical shutter is 200,000 actuations. At 15 fps, that is only 3h 42min of actual shooting. So, for a days birding, I will wear out one in the morning and need a new one in the afternoon. Perhaps, they have reduced the burst size so it will last longer?


I just sold my 7DII on MPB, I had no idea what the shutter count was. They did check it : 440,000 was the count. I was quite impressed, it worked perfectly until the day I sold it and physically looked in good condition. Nor sure the R7 will be as robust.


----------



## CJudge (May 24, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I would not hold my breath


Although I wouldn't bet on it, I'm fairly optimistic. For the R10 to be limit free, while the rest of their R line-up isn't consistent is a bit odd. I would imagine they want maybe half a year of the R5C maintaining that advantage over the R5 and R6, so that anyone who made the switch doesn't feel too irked, and then they'll eventually update the firmware


----------



## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

Hector1970 said:


> I just sold my 7DII on MPB, I had no idea what the shutter count was. They did check it : 440,000 was the count. I was quite impressed, it worked perfectly until the day I sold it and physically looked in good condition. Nor sure the R7 will be as robust.


The electronic shutter of the R7 will basically never wear out mechanically. By coincidence, I just sold all my M kit to MPB. Are you in the UK as well?


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## C4RBON (May 24, 2022)

lote82 said:


> Ouch. Not that I have any interest in buying any M-camera, but if I did the M6 II would be the one ... oh wait ... there is no M6 II anymore!


There are still plenty of M6 II in stock.


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## Lightshooter (May 24, 2022)

R7 is better than R ?


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## canonmike (May 24, 2022)

SnowMiku said:


> According to the review on thedigitalpicture, there is no grip positioning holes for a battery grip.


Really. Will have to chk that out. Thx.


----------



## C4RBON (May 24, 2022)

AlP said:


> The RF-S18-150mm F3.5-6.3 IS STM seems to have the exactly same optical construction as the EF-M version. The MTF seems copy paste.
> 
> And while the latter is a nice lens for the M-system, this is not the kind of zoom one would pair with a typical 7D/D500 replacement, so that might tell where Canon sees the market for the R7





canonnews said:


> ...
> 
> The 18-45? that's just a hot mess. Nice and small and maybe it's just the same as the 15-45 but they stopped at 18 because QA is just so difficult from 15 to 18? but a 29mm to 75mm certainly isn't a nice range I want in the year 2022, not when it's competition is at 24mm. The 15-45mm once you got a good one on the EF-M was a really nice lens. Seeing that range now limited to a cerca 1990 zoom range? ick.
> 
> ...





Abbuzze said:


> The 18-45 seems to be a limited EF-M 15-45mm. No Idea why canon starts which such a limited Lense. The 15mm are real usefull at EOS M. If there are Image quality problems with this lense, they should the job right an build a new one. Instead of 18-45mm, Nikon offers a 16-50mm, and this lense ist even smaller!



From The-Digital-Picture:

The RF-S 18-45mm features a new optical design.
The RF-S 18-150mm shares the optical design of the Canon EF-M 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM, a high performing lens.









Hands-On Reviews: Canon EOS R7 & R10; More RF-S 18-45mm & 18-150mm Lenses Information


Hands-On Reviews: Canon EOS R7 & R10; More RF-S 18-45mm & 18-150mm Lenses Information — The-Digital-Picture.com




www.the-digital-picture.com


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## canonmike (May 24, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Absolutely. IF current Rebel/xxxD users move to an R10 (a big if), DSLRs will be phased out. This may be the beginning of that process, but the price of the R10 guarantees it won’t close down DSLRs or the M series.
> 
> Those who claim the M line is dead are ignoring reality. Sadly, that’s a common failing these days.


Concur. I will NOT, with a cap N be selling my M50 or EF-M lenses. Moreover, I will prob add an M6ii to my M series collection. Even if they do scrub the M series line, I will not be upset, as there will be thousands of them out there in the re-sale market for yrs to come....meanwhile, I look fwd to receiving my R7 body from B&H. Once rec'd, if I don't like it(doubtful), I'm sure I would have no trouble selling it. I'm just pleasantly surprised at the low price on the R7 body.


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## adrian_bacon (May 24, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Canon states that the sensor in the R7 is brand new


great! That should mean even better image quality performance from an already excellent (for its pixel density) sensor.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

Bob Howland said:


> Another rumor website has quoted dimensions. They seem reasonable except that the depth (front-rear) of both cameras seems about 10mm too large.
> 
> I wonder if the R10 will be the basis for an M10 or the M-system is truly dying.



The depth probably includes the extension of the EVF on the rear of the camera.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Pics look interesting.
> 
> Something I don't get:
> That AF/MF switch on the front side. I wouldn't want to have it there.
> ...



I'd much rather have a direct AF/M switch than have to go menu diving.


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## canonmike (May 24, 2022)

David - Sydney said:


> Do 8th graders "graduate" now?


Sure they do. I graduated from the my parochial school 8th grade class in 1959. No such thing as middle schools, parochial or otherwise back then, if I can still remember that long ago. During that era, they did have Public school Jr. High's, grades 7-9, forerunner of modern day middle schools. Most private schools are still grades 1-8 and 9-12.


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## Maximilian (May 24, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> I'd much rather have a direct AF/M switch than have to go menu diving.


Michael, if you scroll back, this was much discussed out pages before. 
I summarize that a switch is better than SW, position is personal taste, MF with STM and focus by wire is ... not my way to go


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## JustUs7 (May 24, 2022)

Maximilian said:


> Michael, if you scroll back, this was much discussed out pages before.
> I summarize that a switch is better than SW, position is personal taste, MF with STM and focus by wire is ... not my way to go


You should be well rested. Surely you have a few more rounds in you!


----------



## Etienne (May 24, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> You really think it would be a $1000 camera if it had IBIS? Maybe the next iteration will… Besides, it's certainly not "very likely" that most people who buy one will use it with primes.


It's the only way I would use this camera. The 16mm f/2.8 and 50mm f/1.8 would be all I'd need for travel and more, but neither have IS. It's not the end of the world, but to me it misses the mark as a lightweight affordable travel kit because there's no IS in the lenses or in the body. 
I'd rather use my phone than carry a camera like this and use a kit lens. In fact I don't know why anyone would go to the trouble and expense of the camera just to use it with the kit lens. You could put your money towards one of the top phones from Samsung, Apple, the Sony Experia or others and have a much simpler system, but to each his own.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> The lifetime of the mechanical shutter is 200,000 actuations.


Where did you see that? Was it a published spec from Canon?


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

Andreasb said:


> IF these mockups are correct, then its not a 7DMKII replacement, It would have looked more like an R6. This looks more low end and smaller, looks cheaper in price. How's the AF system will be my first question, buffer second, customizability third , electronic shutter speed 4th. Low end viewfinder with blackout? ssssss........
> 
> As for the buttons and layout, mf/af button I dont care maybe the button can be reprogrammed? In the back is where it starts looking different: On/off button on the right side? As an old Nikon user all I can say is finally! Have Canon moved the scroll wheel up to the joystick? Interesting that's a closer find with my thumb then currently on the r5/6, I could maybe like that. One scroll wheel on the back top right missing, BOOOOO! The proof will be in the pudding here, will look at first reviews before I decide to buy



The proof is never in the pudding. The proof of the pudding is in the taste. Please get your metaphors right.


----------



## Kit. (May 24, 2022)

tbgtomcom said:


> So the tariffs only apply to the R5/R6 and not the R3/R7/R10? That makes no sense.


The difference in the tariffs has been removed, but the difference in the classifications (HS codes) has not.

So, it might be possible that Canon would need to re-certify the cameras under different HS codes in some markets if it removes the limitation in a firmware update.


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## canonmike (May 24, 2022)

H. Jones said:


> I'm genuinely very interested to see how this joystick dial works in the real world. I feel like Canon had to have learned from the touch-bar to not do this kind of thing without feedback from actual users, so I'm fairly confident Canon had to have gotten good feedback on it. To me, with the closer photos, it actually looks pretty nice. Seems like there's plenty of space between the joystick and the wheel to stop inadvertent changes, and looks like a natural position for the thumb to use both while gripping the camera firmly.
> 
> Odd to me that there's no third dial, but again, the control ring on the lens can make up for that. A little annoying though when you consider the big white supertelephoto RF lenses don't have a control ring, so with those you'd be limited to the rear aperture wheel and the shutter wheel. But, if you're using the control ring adapter and EF supertelephoto lenses, you still have a third ring.
> 
> ...


Concur and at $1500.00, I'm willing to try the R7 out for myself to see if it will find a place in my backpack. At this price point, didn't need to see any reviews to make a decision. Let the naysaying begin. Pre-ordered my copy this morn from B&H. I'll make up my own mind, once I get my body.......The annual Silver Bluff Audubon Sanctuary Wood Stork Kathwood ponds feeding frenzy comes in July. Since it lasts about a month, with a little luck, I'll be using my new R7 body +RF100-500mm zoom + 1.4 Ex to capture the event.


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## canonmike (May 24, 2022)

ItRainsSmiles said:


> Yeah, I've seen the video, too. It was said it has no 30 min video limit


Watch Jared's (Polin) YT review. No recording limit. His video states they used the R7 all day with no overheating issues.


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> Where did you see that? Was it a published spec from Canon?


Specs are on the canon japan site - I use Chrome to translate.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Since the 90D was the new repackaged 7DIII that makes sense.



Except it wasn't. 

The AF system was a downgrade. 
The body material was a downgrade. 
The shutter durability rating was a huge downgrade. 
Only one memory card slot was a downgrade.
Buffer depth was a downgrade.


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

canonmike said:


> Concur and at $1500.00, I'm willing to try the R7 out for myself to see if it will find a place in my backpack. At this price point, didn't need to see any reviews to make a decision. Let the naysaying begin. Pre-ordered my copy this morn from B&H. I'll make up my own mind, once I get my body.......The annual Silver Bluff Audubon Sanctuary Wood Stork Kathwood ponds feeding frenzy comes in July. Since it lasts about a month, with a little luck, I'll be using my new R7 body +RF100-500mm zoom + 1.4 Ex to capture the event.


I'm interested in seeing whether or not the 1.4xTC is any real advantage with this high density sensor.


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> I hope you can choose less than 30 fps in electronic and 15 in mechanical.


Not sure if you found the answer to this already, but yes the R7 has H, M and L settings that give you (up to) 15/6.5/3 fps mechanical or 30/15/3 fps electronic.


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Except it wasn't.
> 
> The AF system was a downgrade.
> The body material was a downgrade.
> ...


Yes, that was my point. It wasn't an upgrade, and neither is the R7. The latter is a mirrorless 90D. There is no mirrorless 7-series, just a camera that happens to be called an R7.


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Not sure if you found the answer to this already, but yes the R7 has H, M and L settings that give you (up to) 15/6.5/3 fps mechanical or 30/15/3 fps electronic.


Thanks neuro, that's very encouraging. I wish they had similar on the R5.


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2022)

For those interested, here's the full spec sheet:



https://downloads.canon.com/notthistime/cameras/better/EOSR7_specifications-5-22.pdf


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, that was my point. It wasn't an upgrade, and neither is the R7. The latter is a mirrorless 90D. There is no mirrorless 7-series, just a camera that happens to be called an R7.


What is important here is the AF. The 90D wasn't the 7DII successor, but it is actually pretty good on IQ although its AF isn't. If the R7 has AF as good as the R5 or R6, then it is a huge leap forward because they are spectacular, maybe not as good as the R3, but still superb.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yes, that was my point. It wasn't an upgrade, and neither is the R7. The latter is a mirrorless 90D. There is no mirrorless 7-series, just a camera that happens to be called an R7.



We'll see what the AF performance looks like compared to the R5/R7. And at least it does have two memory card slots and a 200,000 shutter durability rating rather than the 90D's abysmal 120K. So it seems to be a mixed bag between the 90D and the continuation of the 7D line.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> What is important here is the AF. The 90D wasn't the 7DII successor, but it is actually pretty good on IQ although its AF isn't. If the R7 has AF as good as the R5 or R6, then it is a huge leap forward because they are spectacular, maybe not as good as the R3, but still superb.



I'm hoping increased market pressure from the competition has finally convinced Canon to stop intentionally downgrading AF systems via software in lower level models using the same basic hardware components as higher tier bodies. That seems to be the case vis a vis the R5 and R6. (Contrast that with the difference in AF performance between the 5D Mark III and 1D X, which had the same PDAF array part number, and the 5D Mark IV and 1D X Mark II, which also shared the next generation PDAF array.)

We'll see if it continues into the R7 tier.


----------



## Sporgon (May 24, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> The proof is never in the pudding. The proof of the pudding is in the taste. Please get your metaphors right.


I thought it was “the proof of the pudding is in the eating”


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

JustUs7 said:


> That’s exactly right. I have an RP and my wife has an M6II. The control ring on the RP is mapped to exposure comp as is the quick menu dial on the M6II.
> 
> If you’re using primarily EF glass, then this is lost off course.



Unless one uses the EF-RF adapter with the control ring built into it. For those who want three dials, the extra $100 is probably worth it.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

Sporgon said:


> I thought it was “the proof of the pudding is in the eating”



Taste or eating are both historical usages. But saying "the proof is in the pudding" doesn't even tell you what the proof that is in the pudding is supposed to prove? That it will rain tomorrow? That Angelina is going to divorce Kanye? That Jerry Springer is the REAL father?


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

unfocused said:


> I always enjoy new releases from Canon and the reaction on CR. I'm anxious to see the hype from Canon and the reviews once the R7 is released. The 90D would have been a great camera if Canon had given it better autofocus. If they give this the autofocus of the R5/R6 this could be a nice option.
> 
> My initial reaction is that this is at best a refurbished purchase in 18 months or so. Certainly not a preorder purchase.



Better AF and a shutter durability rating twice as high as the 120,000 actuations they gave it.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

navastronia said:


> I don't think that aperture ring + joystick looks enjoyable to use, and I'm sure this will cost $2099, or somewhere in that ballpark. That said, it's nice just to see more cameras announced.



Does the introductory price of $1,499 USD change your impression at all?


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> I guess if the viewfinder image is smaller (less magnified), like it traditionally is in APS-C optical VFs, then the apparent resolution is higher, of course at the expense of a more "tunnel-like" VF image. But I don’t know if that’s the case.



The 7D Mark II had a 1.0X VF magnification of 100% of the frame. That equates to the same size viewfinder as a FF body with 0.62X VF magnification.
The 5D Mark IV has 0.71X and the 1D X Mark III has 0.76X, so they are larger than the 7D Mark II VF, but nowhere near a factor of 1.6X larger.

For the mirrorless bodies, The R3, R5, and R6 all have 0.76X "equivalent" VF magnification.
The R7 is 1.15X, which translates to 0.72X "equivalent" FF magnification.
So the R7 EVF is even closer to the same size as the R3, R5, and R6 EVFs than the 7D Mark II OVF was to the 5D Mark III/IV OVFs.


----------



## Blue Zurich (May 24, 2022)

For me this thread ends with Micheal Clark laughing at me yet perhaps it's me laughing at Canon for putting a physical AF/MF switch on those bodies thinking if the thousands of folks wondering why their camera won't focus, lol. Fat fingering has GOT to be a consideration in ergonomics and button layout.


----------



## navastronia (May 24, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Does the introductory price of $1,499 USD change your impression at all?



I already said I was wrong about the price in my post half an hour ago - no need to laugh react my message.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

Eriknoteric said:


> And if canon really thought it was a necessity why not put the thumb wheel around that instead of the joystick



Not enough room next to the flippy-tilty screen and the memory card bay underneath the right side of the back of the camera?


----------



## navastronia (May 24, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> For me this thread ends with Micheal Clark laughing at me yet perhaps it's me laughing at Canon for putting a physical AF/MF switch on those bodies thinking if the thousands of folks wondering why their camera won't focus, lol. Fat fingering has GOT to be a consideration in ergonomics and button layout.



Yeah, he did it to me, too. Michael Clark is kind of a tool.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

navastronia said:


> I already said I was wrong about the price in my post half an hour ago - no need to laugh react my message.



So I'm supposed to instantly know the content of every post before I can react to anything as I read through 19 pages of comments? And keep straight in my memory who said what in what post number on which page... ?


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## navastronia (May 24, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> So I'm supposed to instantly know the content of every post before I can react to anything as I read through 19 pages of comments? And keep straight in my memory who said what in what post number on which page... ?



You're just rude. You waited for the price announcement and then went through the thread to call attention to anyone who guessed wrong about something. It's antisocial behavior.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

Act444 said:


> Assuming these pictures are legit...seems to me there were folk(s) who had a "preview look" (or knew enough) and were thus able to create a more accurate representation of the final product...
> 
> I initially found it odd that the mockup somehow had a AF/MF switch in that spot (no R cameras I know of have that switch, just the DOF button), but it all makes sense now.
> 
> ...



The R10 has always appeared to me to be the RF version of the Rebel series. Nothing about this news changes that.

The R7 appears to fall somewhere between a mirrorless 90D and a mirrorless 7D Mark II (or 7D Mark III if there had been one), just as many of us have been saying for quite a while.

The biggest surprises for me today were the prices. 
I expected the R10 to be about $200 less than listed, and I expected the R7 to come in at over $2K USD.


----------



## Blue Zurich (May 24, 2022)

Yeah he's has proven tool status long ago. Also those multiple replies, it's ricockulous. Moving on.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

xelaq said:


> Honestly, if this is what they kill the M line off for, than it was a pretty shit deal IMO.



Why do so many folks think the introduction of APS-C RF mount cameras mean the EOS M system is dead?

Canon has not introduced much of anything new to the EOS M line in more than a while because they've already got the products they need in the EOS M line to continue to sell them competitively against their competition for that market segment.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> Yeah he's has proven tool status long ago. Also those multiple replies, it's ricockulous. Moving on.



Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

If someone responding to your comment with a "laugh" emoticon is enough to trigger you, maybe you should stay in the nursery and let the adults there protect you from mean people like me.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

navastronia said:


> You're just rude. You waited for the price announcement and then went through the thread to call attention to anyone who guessed wrong about something. It's antisocial behavior.



No, I was too busy yesterday to spend any time here. In fact, I've been too busy for several weeks until today.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

rbr said:


> For me that lack of a thumb wheel is a no go. I've been using Canon EOS cameras since the 90's and using it has become second nature to me. All the Canon cameras I've owned (20 or so over the years) have had one. I was hoping that the R7 would be a good camera to pair with my R5, but I think I'll pass.



Isn't that a thumbwheel around the joystick? It's just in a weird place which I'm not thrilled about, but until I can try it I'm not going to say it is an improvement or a step back from previous designs. I will say I would have preferred it to have been down lower, but there may not have been enough room inside the camera with the memory card bays there.


----------



## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

navastronia said:


> You're just rude. You waited for the price announcement and then went through the thread to call attention to anyone who guessed wrong about something. It's antisocial behavior.


Michael is not rude - he is pretty direct, as usual, and he normally posts in blocks as he goes though a large backlog for him.


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## canonmike (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> I'm interested in seeing whether or not the 1.4xTC is any real advantage with this high density sensor.


Indeed, Alan.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

jdavidse said:


> The photo of the R7 can't be real. It looks like a rebel, not a professional wildlife camera and successor to the 7DII. If it is real, then what we are getting is yet another drastic change in controls that means it really can't be paired, workflow-wise, side-by-side with a R6 or R5. Much like Canon's experiment with the touch bar on the R, this will prove very unpopular. The 4-way controller and the whole back of the camera just scream Rebel T2i.



It's been my impression for a long time that Canon felt like they made the 7D Mark II _TOO MUCH_ like the 1D X/1D X Mark II at one-fourth the price and as a result lost too many 1D X sales to 7D Mark II sales from potential buyers who could have afforded the 1D X /1D X Mark II if the 7D Mark II had not existed.

So maybe they are intentionally making the R7 look and feel less like the R3/R5/R6 (and future R1) to avoid that this time? 

Many shooters who aren't trying to make a living with their cameras seem to care as much about what other shooters think of their equipment as they do about what kind of return on investment the equipment can give them. Those types will avoid the R7 like the plague because it doesn't look like it belongs to the R5/R6 "family" of bodies.

There are even a few comments earlier in this thread that reflect that perspective. They're not interested in the R7 strictly based on the fact it doesn't "look" professional. There are also comments earlier in this thread from working pros that say they care more about what a camera can do than what others might think when they see them holding it.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Michael is not rude - he is pretty direct, as usual, and he normally posts in blocks as he goes though a large backlog for him.



Thank you, Alan!


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## AlanF (May 24, 2022)

canonmike said:


> Indeed, Alan.


I did a hands on review on the 90D nearly 3 years ago, and it's interesting for me to go back to it.





__





EOS 90D - Hands on review


The 90D arrived a little late this afternoon so had time for just a few measurements. It is not very substantial and won't be useful for driving in tent pegs, but it is light. It does provide a good grip for holding telephoto lenses. The download cable is a micro USB and Canon is so mean that it...




www.canonrumors.com


----------



## takesome1 (May 24, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> It's been my impression for a long time that Canon felt like they made the 7D Mark II _TOO MUCH_ like the 1D X/1D X Mark II at one-fourth the price and as a result lost too many 1D X sales to 7D Mark II sales from potential buyers who could have afforded the 1D X /1D X Mark II if the 7D Mark II had not existed.


Probably what happened is those who could afford the 1D X bought the 7D II first thinking that it would work just fine, then realize they had bought a $1,799 body and not a $5,999 top of the line 1D X. So they bought an additional body when they bought the 1D X when they realized their mistake.

You get what you pay for, with a $1,499 camera the R7 will no doubt give you $1,499 performance. One thing about Canon, they seldom discount performance.


----------



## navastronia (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Michael is not rude - he is pretty direct, as usual, and he normally posts in blocks as he goes though a large backlog for him.


No, he's rude, as others have confirmed. Has nothing to do with responding to posts in blocks.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> Probably what happened is those who could afford the 1D X bought the 7D II first thinking that it would work just fine, then realize they had bought a $1,799 body and not a $5,999 top of the line 1D X. So they bought an additional body when they bought the 1D X when they realized their mistake.
> 
> You get what you pay for, with a $1,499 camera the R7 will no doubt give you $1,499 performance. One thing about Canon, they seldom discount performance.



My 7D Mark II is still serving me fairly well, though it is starting to show signs of the wear I've put on it over the last seven years. It's every bit as weather resistant as anything else. I've used it in deluges with zero issues. 




Do the pictures look as good as a 1D X when pixel peeping? Of course not, but no one should expect them to. But they look good enough for what I need.


----------



## takesome1 (May 24, 2022)

navastronia said:


> No, he's rude, as others have confirmed. Has nothing to do with responding to posts in blocks.


You have 755 posts, if this is the first time someone has posted a rude comment that offended you congratulations, you probably set some kind of record.

There are posters that are much more rude than Michael ever thought of being.


----------



## Hector1970 (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> The electronic shutter of the R7 will basically never wear out mechanically. By coincidence, I just sold all my M kit to MPB. Are you in the UK as well?


No -not too far away though - Ireland. At least with MPB you can get rid of the things you don't need anymore. They make a good markup but they have to deal with alot of returns etc.


----------



## mdcmdcmdc (May 24, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> We'll see what the AF performance looks like compared to the R5/R7. And at least it does have two memory card slots and a 200,000 shutter durability rating rather than the 90D's abysmal 120K. So it seems to be a mixed bag between the 90D and the continuation of the 7D line.


I wouldn’t call the 90D’s 120K shutter life “abysmal”. It was a consumer/hobbyist product. For somebody who shoots a couple hundred pics every weekend, say 20K per year, that’s a six year life. Not bad for a consumer product. 

It wasn’t meant for somebody who shoots hundreds or thousands of pics per day. Or who worries about resale value.


----------



## takesome1 (May 24, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> My 7D Mark II is still serving me fairly well, though it is starting to show signs of the wear I've put on it over the last seven years. It's every bit as weather resistant as anything else. I've used it in deluges with zero issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Do the pictures look as good as a 1D X when pixel peeping? Of course not, but no one should expect them to. But they look good enough for what I need.


 
I had two 7D II's and a 7D. I learned the lesson that you get what you pay for. The 7D II is a fine camera, but the 1D bodies were better. My 7D's always ended up at home or as loaners.


----------



## navastronia (May 24, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> You have 755 posts, if this is the first time someone has posted a rude comment that offended you congratulations, you probably set some kind of record.
> 
> There are posters that are much more rude than Michael ever thought of being.



I don't know what you think you're contributing to the conversation, but rest assured, you've failed.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

Kharan said:


> You realize that the sensors on the A6100/6400/6600 and Z50/Zfc are 5 years old at least, right? And they have the same EVF resolution or worse, and worse screen resolution. Also, they don't shoot as fast, have video recording limits, and worse thermal architecture...
> I mean, I'm usually hyper-critical of Canon. I see fault in everything they do. But the release of the R7/10 is, if anything, a massive kick in *everyone's* collective asses. Sony, Nikon and even Fujifilm. They've been slacking.


Careful! You'll confuse them with facts.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

Chaitanya said:


> Here are full buffer specs of R7, quite disappointing buffer depth plus lack of CFx slot means its going to be long write times to card from buffer.
> View attachment 203845
> 
> 
> ...



With a fast UHS-II card buffer depth is still significantly better than either the 90D or the 7D Mark II. 

I'm guessing that most sports shooters will go with mechanical shutter (to avoid rolling shutter effect). Shoot C-RAW and the buffer is much larger than the 90D/7DII/M6II.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

xelaq said:


> I really hope it's true, but i wonder how these two systems could exists side by side. Where is the line between the two? If Canon only released the R7 then it woulf be clear, but the R10 makes it messy.
> 
> Speaking of the R10: why would you buy it of there is the RP or something like the Fuji X-S10 which offers more in a more mature APS-C system...



I think Canon may be couching their bet a little based on current economic uncertainty due to the events in eastern Europe and the effect on energy prices. They can give near continuous "instant rebates" if economic conditions improve a lot easier than they can raise the price after release if things get worse.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

xelaq said:


> I really hope it's true, but i wonder how these two systems could exists side by side. Where is the line between the two? If Canon only released the R7 then it woulf be clear, but the R10 makes it messy.
> 
> Speaking of the R10: why would you buy it of there is the RP or something like the Fuji X-S10 which offers more in a more mature APS-C system...


That's like asking how can EF and RF lenses exist alongside Canon Cinema lenses? Or how can C-series video cameras exist alongside the R3/R5/R6 and 1D X III/5DIV, etc.?

They're aimed at different markets, that's how. 

The EOS-M users in this group are the exceptions to the typical EOS M system buyer.


----------



## takesome1 (May 24, 2022)

navastronia said:


> I don't know what you think you're contributing to the conversation, but rest assured, you've failed.


Well, I would say I made my point. Thanks


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

AlP said:


> The RF-S18-150mm F3.5-6.3 IS STM seems to have the exactly same optical construction as the EF-M version. The MTF seems copy paste.
> 
> And while the latter is a nice lens for the M-system, this is not the kind of zoom one would pair with a typical 7D/D500 replacement, so that might tell where Canon sees the market for the R7



Canon never really made any EF-S lenses specifically for the 7-series, either. Most of the 7D/7DII owners I know used EF telephoto lenses with them. When we wanted to shoot wider angles of view, we used our 5-series bodies.

The RF-S lenses are more geared to the R10, but Canon will use them as kit lenses for the R7, just as they used EF-S lenses like the 28-135 and later the 18-135 in 7D/7DII kits, though most 7D/7DIIs were sold body only.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

dilbert said:


> EOS-M was successful for a reason. The R7 & R10 do not capture that reason.



It doesn't seem to me that Canon is even remotely going for the same market with the R7 and R10 as the market to which they have sold (and continue, within the context of the overall drop in ILC sales, to sell) a boatload of EOS M cameras.

It also doesn't seem to me to be logical to assume that just because there are now RF mount APS-C cameras that Canon HAS to discontinue manufacture, sales, and marketing of the EOS M system.


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## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

dilbert said:


> Not unless the EOS-M market is significant enough in size. Will wait and see if Canon attempt to plug that hole in the market or just leave it, hoping for people to go for a bigger camera.



Or maybe they'll just keep selling EOS M cameras and lenses?


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> That tarrif sunset before the R3 came out



On the other hand, I can see how some government bureaucrats might get upset that a specific camera body that was sold before those tariffs ended can now be updated to eliminate the condition that exempted it from the tariff, and thus try to collect the tariff that would have been collected if the camera had that capability when the user originally bought it.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 24, 2022)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The R7 feels a bit meh! In some ways it looks great, price is ok but feels like a missed opportunity. Low res EVF, ugly 4 way controller, soft 4K 60p.
> And the lenses...disappointing. Where is a decent bright APS-C zoom or wideangle? For the M at least we had a tiny and cheap 22mm pancake,
> for these the only option is the much bigger and more expensive 35mm RF.



Canon still sells the EOS M system, too. If that's what you're into, get an M body and the EF-M 22mm.

There was never a really bright EF-S wide angle prime lens either. Or zoom for that matter. (17-55mm is more "normal" than WA on an APS-C body, in my opinion.)


----------



## Andreasb (May 24, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> The proof is never in the pudding. The proof of the pudding is in the taste. Please get your metaphors right.


I'm Swedish and I admit I get my English wrong from time to time, so I looked it up:

Merriam-Webster 
Their summary:
_Generally, the expressions are used to say that the real worth, success, or effectiveness of something can only be determined by putting it to the test by trying or using it, appearances and promises aside—just as the best test of a pudding is to eat it._


----------



## hoodlum (May 24, 2022)

It looks like more RF-S lenses are coming soon









Here is the rumored Canon EOS RF-S mirrorless APS-C lens roadmap - Photo Rumors


With the latest APS-C cameras and lenses Canon did not release any future plans. I received a tip with the Canon EOS RF-S mirrorless lens roadmap – here are the upcoming APS-C lenses: Canon RF-S 22mm f/2 STM Canon RF-S 11-55mm f/4-4.5 IS STM Canon RF-S 55-250mm f/4.5-7.1 IS STM Canon RF-S...




photorumors.com


----------



## canonmike (May 24, 2022)

AlanF said:


> I did a hands on review on the 90D nearly 3 years ago, and it's interesting for me to go back to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thx. Always enjoy your measured, thoughtful insight into any given topic....will be interesting to see how the R7 will compare to the 90D, given all the speculation about potential similarities between the two bodies. I was more than pleasantly surprised at how low the R7 price came in, causing me to whip out my CC. Ha! Will ck out your 90D review, seeing as how I have not owned that particular body. Unlike the 7Dii body, I found my gen one 7D often lacking with occasionally unexplainable soft images, especially when using the gen one EF 1.4x extender, coupled to my gen II 70-200 F2.8L. On another related front, hope that Canon is taking so long on R1 announcement because they want to get it right. Do hope we are overwhelmed with every aspect of it, except the price. I can dream, can I not?


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ouch. Not that I have any interest in buying an R7, but if I did this would kill the deal for me.



Me too, dang it! 

The rotator cuff in my right shoulder doesn't allow me to shoot vertical with the stability I'd like without a set of vertical controls. 

Oh well.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Canon states that the sensor in the R7 is brand new



They've also said the same thing about previous recycled sensors that _may_ have a slightly different filter stack in front of it.


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> Yep. I saw it on the BH site. It’s an extra $400 here in the US, not a great savings from the $480 list, but it’s something.



The 18-150 is priced for $499 at B&H when I pull it up.


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

Lightshooter said:


> R7 is better than R ?



That's about like asking if a 12mm open-end wrench is better than a 1/2" self-ratcheting box end-wrench.

That all depends upon what you want to do with it.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> The proof is never in the pudding. The proof of the pudding is in the taste. Please get your metaphors right.


That is the right metaphor. The proof is in the pudding. Quite commonly used in the US at any rate.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> The 18-150 is priced for $499 at B&H when I pull it up.


Interesting. The MSRP at the Canon USA web site is $479.99.


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> I wouldn’t call the 90D’s 120K shutter life “abysmal”. It was a consumer/hobbyist product. For somebody who shoots a couple hundred pics every weekend, say 20K per year, that’s a six year life. Not bad for a consumer product.
> 
> It wasn’t meant for somebody who shoots hundreds or thousands of pics per day. Or who worries about resale value.



Six years isn't too bad until you've been using it for over seven years and the replacement has yet to be introduced.

I've never been worried about resale value. I hold onto cameras until they're basically worthless on the used market and then give them to relatives or donate them to the local high school photography department.

I have been worried about my 7D Mark II shutter wearing out now that I've been shooting 35-50K frames per year with it since mid-2015. It's also starting to show a few more hot pixels than it used to. 

Until it came to light today that the R7 will not be provided with a grip, I had planned to order one. But my aging right shoulder can't handle shooting vertical without a set of dual controls. So I guess I'll be looking for a low mileage used 7D II to stash away until I need it.

I'm not about to start using my 5D Mark IV for the high volume telephoto work I use the 7DII to do. I only average 10-12K frames per year on the 5D IV, even though I use only it on more than half my shoots, and use it as a wide angle body on all the sports/action shoots I do with the 7DII as the primary body.


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> That is the right metaphor. The proof is in the pudding. Quite commonly used in the US at any rate.



Quite commonly misused in the U.S. that way.

Kind of like "I could care less" when they're trying to say they couldn't care less.


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> Interesting. The MSRP at the Canon USA web site is $479.99.
> 
> View attachment 203866



That is surprising. We'll see if B&H drops it to$479.99 or not.


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## neuroanatomist (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Canon never really made any EF-S lenses specifically for the 7-series, either. Most of the 7D/7DII owners I know used EF telephoto lenses with them. When we wanted to shoot wider angles of view, we used our 5-series bodies.


Of course not, but that’s a silly strawman argument since any EF-S lens can mount on any Canon APS-C DSLR (the 10D notwithstanding).

I’d argue that lenses like EF-S 17-55/2.8 and 10-22/3.5-4.5 were aimed at the same target market as the 7-series DSLRs. Those lenses had better build quality (e.g., metal mounts) and better image quality than typical crop format lenses. Furthermore, the replacement of the 10-22 with the 10-18 (plastic mount, narrower aperture, and somewhat lower IQ) suggests that target market became less important to Canon over time (an idea further supported by the lack of a 7DIII and a mirrorless R7 that isn’t that either).

Of course most 7-series users used EF telephone lenses, the only EF-S telephoto lens was the 55-250 (which itself was updated a couple of times to make production costs lower, but hey, it sported a “silver ring for a luxury touch,” said Canon).

Another key point is that I suspect those who own more than one camera body are a tiny minority of Canon shooters. Sure, there are lots of us on this forum…but we are far from typical users.


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## neuroanatomist (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Quite commonly misused in the U.S. that way.
> 
> Kind of like "I could care less" when they're trying to say they couldn't care less.


I couldn’t care less about metaphors involving pudding.


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## Czardoom (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> I'd much rather have a direct AF/M switch than have to go menu diving.


Of course, just like any reasonable person.


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## JustUs7 (May 25, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> Yeah he's has proven tool status long ago. Also those multiple replies, it's *ricockulous*. Moving on.


This can’t be in common use. Infectious Grooves fan?


----------



## Czardoom (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> The R10 has always appeared to me to be the RF version of the Rebel series. Nothing about this news changes that.


Hmmm, 15 fps mechanical/23 fps electronic...all the subject tracking of the R3...yup, that sure spells Rebel. Not!


----------



## Blue Zurich (May 25, 2022)

JustUs7 said:


> This can’t be in common use. Infectious Grooves fan?


idk, I've been using it for 30 odd years


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## takesome1 (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Quite commonly misused in the U.S. that way.
> 
> Kind of like "I could care less" when they're trying to say they couldn't care l





neuroanatomist said:


> I couldn’t care less about metaphors involving pudding.


I would say that usage is incorrect, as you could have cared even less and not have commented at all.


----------



## JustUs7 (May 25, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> idk, I've been using it for 30 odd years


That’s about right. The Plague That Makes Your Booty Move was released in 1991. Band was led by Mike Muir, from Suicidal Tendencies as a side project. The album had character dialogue between songs. “This is ricockulous! What’chyu mean!?!” was a phrase used. Only place I’ve ever heard it other than fans repeating it. Or people repeating them? Or maybe it was more common than I thought.


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## neuroanatomist (May 25, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Hmmm, 15 fps mechanical/23 fps electronic...all the subject tracking of the R3...yup, that sure spells Rebel. Not!


The $1000 price tag doesn’t spell Rebel. 

A lot of shared components with the R7. I wonder how much of the R10’s higher end feature set was driven by Canon trying to build in flexibility in response to supply shortages, minimizing the number of components.


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## unfocused (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Quite commonly misused in the U.S. that way.
> 
> Kind of like "I could care less" when they're trying to say they couldn't care less.


Sorry, but no. A quick search reveals a number of reliable sources that affirm that "the proof is in the pudding" is a perfectly acceptable phrase that grew out of the older phrase, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." Both phrases are accepted and both mean essentially the same thing. 

On the other hand, "I could care less" is obviously nonsensical. If one "could" care less it literally means one cares.


----------



## Bishop80 (May 25, 2022)

Blue Zurich said:


> For me this thread ends with Micheal Clark laughing at me yet perhaps it's me laughing at Canon for putting a physical AF/MF switch on those bodies thinking if the thousands of folks wondering why their camera won't focus, lol. Fat fingering has GOT to be a consideration in ergonomics and button layout.


Human Factors engineering has got to be a thankless job for products like cameras, unless you just knock the design out of the park. Personally, I'm not fond of buttons on top of a camera (like the flush ones that control a mode/function, not the recessed rotary dial), but nevertheless they tend to put some important ones up there. Of course, many cameras let you customize other buttons and accommodate. I find buttons or switches on the front or back of the body a bit easier to manage during hand-held scenarios. Shooting on a monopod or tripod, however, it isn't as big a hassle. However, those flush buttons on top _are_ less prone to accidental pressing.


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## EOS 4 Life (May 25, 2022)

unfocused said:


> On the other hand, "I could care less" is obviously nonsensical. If one "could" care less it literally means one cares.


I have always taken it as sarcasm.
People seem to have no problem when people sarcastically say the opposite of what they mean in other cases.


----------



## koenkooi (May 25, 2022)

unfocused said:


> Sorry, but no. A quick search reveals a number of reliable sources that affirm that "the proof is in the pudding" is a perfectly acceptable phrase that grew out of the older phrase, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." Both phrases are accepted and both mean essentially the same thing.
> 
> On the other hand, "I could care less" is obviously nonsensical. If one "could" care less it literally means one cares.


Bonus points for using ‘literally’ in this discussion


----------



## shire_guy (May 25, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Thanks neuro, that's very encouraging. I wish they had similar on the R5.



I know it's been covered before but having variable fps for electronic shutter on the R5 is probably the one thing I would like most. I guess there is no chance of a firmware upgrade - but they did give the R5 the vehicle AF upgrade from the R3.


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (May 25, 2022)

JustUs7 said:


> This can’t be in common use. Infectious Grooves fan?


... agreed ! That reminds me I need to call my hair stylist.


----------



## Aussie shooter (May 25, 2022)

I have to admit. When I saw the first image of the R7 joystick/wheel configuration, my first reaction was somewhat skeptical, but the more I look at it, the wiser it looks. It really does look like a decent canera


----------



## Aussie shooter (May 25, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Canon states that the sensor in the R7 is brand new


From the sounds of it , it is the same base sensor with improved micro lenses and circuitry (that is if I am understanding what I have heard correctly. Combined with the digic X that should see a definite improvement in performance.


----------



## john1970 (May 25, 2022)

After digesting the R7 release it appears to be a decent APS-C camera at its price point. Personally I would have rather seen a higher end APS-C camera with a stacked BSI sensor, one CFExpress lot, and a much improved buffer at 30 fps of ~100 RAW files. I would have gladly spent $2500 for such a camera, but as is I shall pass and wait patiently for a R1, which I assuming is going to be a combination of R3 and R5 with all the bells and whistles.


----------



## speg (May 25, 2022)

I can’t decide if I should go for R7 or save a bit more for R6. Can the hive mind tell me what to do? 

Reach & action are a priority. But so are sunrises with flowers.


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## JustUs7 (May 25, 2022)

speg said:


> I can’t decide if I should go for R7 or save a bit more for R6. Can the hive mind tell me what to do?
> 
> Reach & action are a priority. But so are sunrises with flowers.


I would guess APS-C can do sunrises and flowers easier than full frame can do reach. But they both look like you won’t miss any action. Unless it’s distant action, then you’re back to reach. 

If you said low light, portraits, and action, I would have said R6.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 25, 2022)

speg said:


> I can’t decide if I should go for R7 or save a bit more for R6. Can the hive mind tell me what to do?
> 
> Reach & action are a priority. But so are sunrises with flowers.


If you primarily need reach, APS-C might be better, If you primarily need wide fields and shallow DOF, FF is the better option.

I don't know how the R6 is as an action camera, but using a longer lens or extender could help partially improve the reach. Still, 32.5 MP APS-C versus 20 MP FF is a big difference in pixel density.

Ultimately they're both great cameras which will enable you to make great images. It's just a question of what properties are most important to you.


----------



## mdcmdcmdc (May 25, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> Interesting. The MSRP at the Canon USA web site is $479.99.
> 
> View attachment 203866


I wouldn't attribute this to any nefarious intent. Oftentimes, dealers have little more notice than the rest of us mere mortals when new products are announced. They might have put it into their system with incorrect or miscommunicated information.

From what I understand, official Canon dealers (at least in the USA) aren't allowed to deviate from the "official" prices. So they'll likely correct it at some point, and anybody who preorders one at $499 should only be charged $479 when it actually ships.


----------



## Kit. (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Kind of like "I could care less" when they're trying to say they couldn't care less.


Technically, they could, by not replying at all.


----------



## Del Paso (May 25, 2022)

This site is becoming far too intellectual for poor illiterate me.
I'll jump ship and visit Soni-rumors...


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

Czardoom said:


> Hmmm, 15 fps mechanical/23 fps electronic...all the subject tracking of the R3...yup, that sure spells Rebel. Not!



Competition has forced Canon to give their lower tier models more goodies than they used to.

I could have probably been a bit clearer before and said, "The R10 has always appeared to me to be the RF version of the Rebel *xx0D* series. Nothing about this news changes that."



neuroanatomist said:


> The $1000 price tag doesn’t spell Rebel.
> 
> A lot of shared components with the R7. I wonder how much of the R10’s higher end feature set was driven by Canon trying to build in flexibility in response to supply shortages, minimizing the number of components.



Ask me how much I paid (at $100 less than list price) for my first Rebel in 2008. Translated to 2022 dollars it was more than the R10.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> I would say that usage is incorrect, as you could have cared even less and not have commented at all.











The Scoop on 'The Proof Is in the Pudding'


No evidence is in there, but it was a treat to find out.




www.merriam-webster.com


----------



## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

john1970 said:


> After digesting the R7 release it appears to be a decent APS-C camera at its price point. Personally I would have rather seen a higher end APS-C camera with a stacked BSI sensor, one CFExpress lot, and a much improved buffer at 30 fps of ~100 RAW files. I would have gladly spent $2500 for such a camera, but as is I shall pass and wait patiently for a R1, which I assuming is going to be a combination of R3 and R5 with all the bells and whistles.



With a fast UHS-II card you get 187 frames shooting C-RAW at 15 fps with the R7. Using the 30 fps e-shutter you get 93 C-RAW frames, which is pretty close to ≈100.

Based on other recent Canon bodies that offer C-RAW, it's really hard to see any difference between RAW and C-Raw unless you're shooting right on the absolute edge of the camera's low light capability. For sports and wildlife shooters it's usually not quite that bad, light wise.

With the slowish readout sensor Canon used to keep the cost down, rolling shutter effect will probably be too severe to use e-shutter for most sports. Personally, I spend way too much time culling bursts taken at 10 fps. 15 fps is almost more than I want, especially with file sizes for 32MP.

I'm not sure how rolling shutter will affect birders' decision on electronic vs. mechanical shutter. But even at 30 fps and lossless RAW the 42 shot buffer is significantly larger than what the M6 Mark II, 90D, or 7D Mark II offer(ed).


----------



## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> I wouldn't attribute this to any nefarious intent. Oftentimes, dealers have little more notice than the rest of us mere mortals when new products are announced. They might have put it into their system with incorrect or miscommunicated information.
> 
> From what I understand, official Canon dealers (at least in the USA) aren't allowed to deviate from the "official" prices. So they'll likely correct it at some point, and anybody who preorders one at $499 should only be charged $479 when it actually ships.



I don't think either of us suggested anything nefarious about it at all. I was only observing that it is extremely unusual for B&H to list any Canon products at anything other than the "official" Canon price. I'd guess it almost certainly was an oversight/error/miscommunication. But it's still there for $499 today.

The contracts actually state they cant _*advertise*_ a price *lower* than the "official" price. They can sell for any price they choose above or below the official price.
They are not prohibited from advertising a price more than the official one, either.

Depending on your customer habits (i.e how much stuff you buy from B&H) you can call them and often get an unadvertised discount below the "official price", or get them to throw in an extra goodie or two, if they've got more inventory of that item than they'd prefer to have sitting in the warehouse. Right now that's not the case for much of anything made by Canon, but hopefully it will be the case again in the near future.


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## Pierre Lagarde (May 25, 2022)

speg said:


> I can’t decide if I should go for R7 or save a bit more for R6. Can the hive mind tell me what to do?
> 
> Reach & action are a priority. But so are sunrises with flowers.


They are quite in different leagues to my sense.

I'd say save even (much) more and take R5. You will have decent reach (nearly 20Mp APS-C with good pixels) and at least, everything R6 can do as well.

As said JustUs7 though, + some complements :
- if reach, and light weight/smaller body+APS-C kit lenses is the priority, take R7 (18-150 looks like a great walk around kit zoom and there's a risk you won't have as full usage of it with R6 as with R7)
- if FF is the priority (beauty of colours, more bokeh, more light, higher ISOs etc..), then take the R6

This 32Mp sensor is very good and will give you decent colours, DR and precision all the way for landscape to my sense.
I attached a basic panoramic view made with M6 mark II and 11-22 (let's hope they'll do a similar lens for R).

I'd say you probably can't go wrong with the specs of R7 if image quality is the question anyway, then, but I still think the priority may be to do serious handling test to ensure you'll be at ease with the shape of this camera. 
...


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## blackcoffee17 (May 25, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Canon states that the sensor in the R7 is brand new



Of course it is brand new but the same design as the 90D's sensor


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Another key point is that I suspect those who own more than one camera body are a tiny minority of Canon shooters. Sure, there are lots of us on this forum…but we are far from typical users.



Overall, I'd agree with you that most Canon shooters only have one body, or at least only one that they use with maybe the older model it replaced buried in a closet somewhere. But I don't think most 7D Mark II owners fell/fall into that same category. 

The 7D and especially the 7D Mark II were more specialized tools than most Canon bodies. They were optimized for sports and action, sometimes at the expense of other tasks. The x0D series were better general purpose cameras than the 7D series. At ISO 100-400 both the 80D and 90D outperformed the 7DII in terms of DR and Color Sensitivity. The Rebels, which are all that the vast majority of Canon shooters ever own(ed), are jacks of all trades as well. So are the 5-series and 6-series.


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## takesome1 (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> The Scoop on 'The Proof Is in the Pudding'
> 
> 
> No evidence is in there, but it was a treat to find out.
> ...


This site is so educational.

I suppose at some point in the past when the phrase originated someone actually tasted the pudding.

Not long ago on the forum I learned everything I needed to know about Do-nuts and Dough-nuts and cannibals eating Munchkins at Dunkin.


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## takesome1 (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Overall, I'd agree with you that most Canon shooters only have one body, or at least only one that they use with maybe the older model it replaced buried in a closet somewhere. But I don't think most 7D Mark II owners fell/fall into that same category. The body available at that time was the 70D and the only thing it would have had the 7D Mark II didn't is the flippy screen.
> 
> The 7D and especially the 7D Mark II were more specialized tools than most Canon bodies. They were optimized for sports and action, sometimes at the expense of other tasks. The x0D series were better general purpose cameras than the 7D series. At ISO 100-400 both the 80D and 90D outperformed the 7DII in terms of DR and Color Sensitivity. The Rebels, which are all that the vast majority of Canon shooters ever own(ed), are jacks of all trades as well. So are the 5-series and 6-series.


At its release the 7D II did everything the other current crop bodies did and more (the 70D). I wouldn't have called either specialized in comparison to other crop bodies. The 7D and 7D II just had a higher price point and more features. Both of the bodies you reference were released years after the 7D II so they should have had improvements.

Canon milked the 7D II for all they could. It was announced in September of 2014 and there was never another 7D update.

It isn't like the separation you have now and had with full frame. You either had high mp slow cameras or the fast 1D series.


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## Del Paso (May 25, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> This site is so educational.
> 
> I suppose at some point in the past when the phrase originated someone actually tasted the pudding.
> 
> Not long ago on the forum I learned everything I needed to know about Do-nuts and Dough-nuts and cannibals eating Munchkins at Dunkin.


This site is better than the Sorbonne, Oxford, Cambridge or Princeton.
And we benefit from lifetime membership!


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

Pierre Lagarde said:


> They are quite in different leagues to my sense.
> 
> I'd say save even (much) more and take R5. You will have decent reach (nearly 20Mp APS-C with good pixels) and at least, everything R6 can do as well.
> 
> ...



On the other hand, both an R6 and an R7 can be had for about the same price as a single R5.

The R7 looks to be a much better camera for sports/action where reach is an issue than the R6. By the time you crop the R5 to R7 size (because your lens is reach limited), you'd probably get slightly better image quality with the R5 but slightly better AF performance with the R7 (if it's true that it matches the R3 in Servo AF performance). For me, I'd rather have a slightly noisier image that's in focus than a slightly cleaner image that is slightly out of focus. YMMV.

The R6 will be a much better camera than the R7 for landscapes and flowers. It's also about as good as the R5 for those use cases unless you plan on printing/displaying very large.

You do get the best of both with the R5, but it's only one body so you'd be limited to a single lens at any given moment with no backup if you have an issue with your one camera.

Sometimes two bodies come in very handy for sports and action, especially if one is APS-C and the other is FF. Throw a telephoto on the APS-C body and a wide angle on the FF body and you can cover a lot of ground with only two lenses. Start the play with your "reach" body/lens combo and if the play comes straight towards you on the sideline swap to the "wide" body/lens combo to finish out the play. With a two camera harness it's very fast to go from using one body to the other without missing shots changing lenses.






(The image numbers are reversed because the clocks on both cameras were not perfectly synchronized and the latter shot has a slightly earlier timestamp and was automatically sorted ahead of the earlier shot before the files from all cameras were renumbered in sequence.)

Or to catch the play with the "long" setup and then get an immediate sideline reaction with the "wide" combo.


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> At its release the 7D II did everything the other current crop bodies did and more (the 70D). I wouldn't have called either specialized in comparison to other crop bodies. The 7D and 7D II just had a higher price point and more features. Both of the bodies you reference were released years after the 7D II so they should have had improvements.
> 
> Canon milked the 7D II for all they could. It was announced in September of 2014 and there was never another 7D update.
> 
> It isn't like the separation you have now and had with full frame. You either had high mp slow cameras or the fast 1D series.



The 7D Mark II was released (shipped) in November, 2014.

The 80D was released (shipped) in the Spring of 2016 barely 16 months later.

16 months is not "years", especially when the 70D was only sold alongside the 7DII for 16 months and the 80D was sold alongside the 7DII for almost 4 years (≈42 months). Even if the 7DII had only had a 4-year life cycle, it would have been sold alongside the 80D for longer (32 months) than it was sold alongside the 70D (16 months), which was right at half of its marketing life cycle when the 7D Mark II was introduced about 15 months after the 70D introduction in mid-2013. 

The "separation" between high MP slow cameras and lower MP crop bodies ended in the Spring of 2012 with the release of the 18 MP EOS 1D X at a time when the highest resolution body in the Canon inventory was 22.3MP (5D Mark III also released the same quarter). That's what Chuck Westfall included in his spiel every time he was interviewed about the upcoming release of the 1D X to replace both the 1Ds Mark III and the 1D Mark IV.

2012 was before 2014 unless you're Dr. Who, Bill & Ted, or "Doc" & Marty.


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## unfocused (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Canon never really made any EF-S lenses specifically for the 7-series, either. Most of the 7D/7DII owners I know used EF telephoto lenses with them. When we wanted to shoot wider angles of view, we used our 5-series bodies...


That's not quite correct. While the 15-85mm was not made *specifically* for the 7D, they were announced in tandem and at the time it was generally considered by reviewers that the 15-85 mm was meant to be paired with the 7D.


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

unfocused said:


> That's not quite correct. While the 15-85mm was not made *specifically* for the 7D, they were announced in tandem and at the time it was generally considered by reviewers that the 15-85 mm was meant to be paired with the 7D.



I'm sure you're correct. I thought I recalled the earliest 7D kits having the EF 28-135mm, but I guess that was the 50D. The wider range zoom lens offered with the 7D was the EF-S 18-135mm? Canon had to do something at that point about the EF-S 17-85mm, which had only been out for 5 years, but was bad to break the ribbon cable between the rear pc board and the internal pc board that controlled the AF motor and aperture with fairly pedestrian usage.

P.S. The EF 100mm f/2.8 L Macro was also introduced at the same time as the 7D...


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> I wouldn't attribute this to any nefarious intent. Oftentimes, dealers have little more notice than the rest of us mere mortals when new products are announced. They might have put it into their system with incorrect or miscommunicated information.
> 
> From what I understand, official Canon dealers (at least in the USA) aren't allowed to deviate from the "official" prices. So they'll likely correct it at some point, and anybody who preorders one at $499 should only be charged $479 when it actually ships.



Now it's showing $499 at Canon USA as well.


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## EOS 4 Life (May 25, 2022)

speg said:


> I can’t decide if I should go for R7 or save a bit more for R6. Can the hive mind tell me what to do?
> 
> Reach & action are a priority. But so are sunrises with flowers.


It sounds like the R7 would give you all of that and the R6 would give you everything except reach


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## unfocused (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> P.S. The EF 100mm f/2.8 L Macro was also introduced at the same time as the 7D...


That’s right. I forgot about that lens. As far as I know the 15-85 was never offered as a kit with the 7D although many people expected that it would be. I think the lens was too costly to be kitted with the 7D so Canon just sold it separately, even though they marketed it as a companion to the 7D.


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## neuroanatomist (May 25, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Overall, I'd agree with you that most Canon shooters only have one body, or at least only one that they use with maybe the older model it replaced buried in a closet somewhere. But I don't think most 7D Mark II owners fell/fall into that same category.
> 
> The 7D and especially the 7D Mark II were more specialized tools than most Canon bodies. They were optimized for sports and action, sometimes at the expense of other tasks. The x0D series were better general purpose cameras than the 7D series. At ISO 100-400 both the 80D and 90D outperformed the 7DII in terms of DR and Color Sensitivity. The Rebels, which are all that the vast majority of Canon shooters ever own(ed), are jacks of all trades as well. So are the 5-series and 6-series.


I think your perspective is _colored*_ too much by your own experience. When the 7D came out, there was a large price difference between it as the top APS-C body and the 5DII as the bottom FF body. The 7DII w/ a kit lens was substantially cheaper than the 6DII with lens, and the 7D/II were a much cheaper upgrade from xxxD or lower bodies because no additional lens(es) would be needed.

I suspect there were many for whom the 7D/7DII was their only camera.

*colored, you mention that xxD bodies had better low ISO DR and Color Sensitivity. That’s a forum dweller perspective. I doubt most Canon owners, including FF and even 1-series owners, know about or care about measured Color Sensitivity or are even aware of DxOMark.


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## Michael Clark (May 25, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> I think your perspective is _colored*_ too much by your own experience. When the 7D came out, there was a large price difference between it as the top APS-C body and the 5DII as the bottom FF body. The 7DII w/ a kit lens was substantially cheaper than the 6DII with lens, and the 7D/II were a much cheaper upgrade from xxxD or lower bodies because no additional lens(es) would be needed.
> 
> I suspect there were many for whom the 7D/7DII was their only camera.
> 
> *colored, you mention that xxD bodies had better low ISO DR and Color Sensitivity. That’s a forum dweller perspective. I doubt most Canon owners, including FF and even 1-series owners, know about or care about measured Color Sensitivity or are even aware of DxOMark.



I'm sure most every 70/80/90D owner that fits the profile you describe were glad those cameras had the customized automatic Scene Modes (beach, flowers, snow, night portrait, etc.) and might have chosen them over the 7-Series because the 7-Series bodies did not. They probably didn't mind only having one "C" mode on the dial, since they probably had no idea what the "C" stood for. 7D owners probably did prefer the three positions on the dial (C1, C2, and C3) and didn't mind giving up all of those various 'Auto' modes clogging the mode dial.

You can criticize my experience all you want, but unless you present factual, documented evidence to the contrary about who bought what camera models with or without kit lenses and why, and how many other bodies those buyers owned, you're just stabbing in the dark at the same time you're criticizing me for introducing anecdotal information about people I've actually known and interacted with at sporting events, concerts, festivals, etc. How many 7D/7DII owners that only had one body have you personally interacted with on multiple occasions?

New 7D Mark II (Body Only) cameras have not been available from Canon retailers for almost two years. A few dealers still have a few rare brand new 7D Mark II kits with the EF-S 18-135mm kit lens (but without the Wi-Fi card, which means these kits predate 2017 when Canon stopped shipping any 7D Mark II bodies or kits without the W-E1). That ought to tell you something about which SKU sold faster or was more in demand.

A large part of the reason 7D II was "substantially" cheaper with kit lens than the 6D with kit lens was due to the difference in the two lenses in question.

Upon introduction in 2012, the 6D *body* was priced at $1899 USD.
Upon introduction in 2014, The 7D Mark II *body* was priced at $1,799 USD.
Upon introduction in 2017, the 6D Mark II *body* was priced at $1,999 USD.

So just maybe the larger differences in the kit prices had to do with the difference between the price of the EF-S 18-135mm f/ 3.5-56 IS and the EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS?


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## Sharlin (May 26, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> I'm sure most every 70/80/90D owner that fits the profile you describe were glad those cameras had the customized automatic Scene Modes (beach, flowers, snow, night portrait, etc.) and might have chosen them over the 7-Series because the 7-Series bodies did not. They probably didn't mind only having one "C" mode on the dial, since they probably had no idea what the "C" stood for.


I'm… rather doubtful of this, honestly. I would think that most people who ever "graduate" from the entry-level models do so at a point where they don't need the hand-holding of the scene modes anymore, and for many choosing between a 7D(2) and a xxD may not have been trivial. For myself, having been in that situation (going from a 450D to a 7D vs a 60D) the two deciding factors were: a) price and b) the flippy screen. (Some years later, I anguished even more between the 80D and the 7D2, and again the main factors were the same, plus additionally the 80D's improved sensor). But of course this is too just a single datapoint.


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## Michael Clark (May 26, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> I'm… rather doubtful of this, honestly. I would think that most people who ever "graduate" from the entry-level models do so at a point where they don't need the hand-holding of the scene modes anymore, and for many choosing between a 7D(2) and a xxD may not have been trivial. For myself, who has been in that situation (from a 450D to a 7D vs 60D) the two deciding factors were: a) price and b) the flippy screen. (Some years later, I anguished even more between the 80D and the 7D2, and again the factors were the same, plus the 80D's improved sensor). But of course this is too just a single datapoint.



Even so, you still make my original point: The 70/80/90Ds were better general purpose cameras than the 7D Mark II was. The 7D Mark II was built for speed and the sensor was optimized for moderately high ISOs, all in a no-frills enclosure that could handle the kind of environmental abuse that field sports and wildlife/birding throw at a camera. It was designed to be a specific tool, rather than a more generalist camera.


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## takesome1 (May 26, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Even so, you still make my original point: The 70/80/90Ds were better general purpose cameras than the 7D Mark II was. The 7D Mark II was built for speed and the sensor was optimized for moderately high ISOs, all in a no-frills enclosure that could handle the kind of environmental abuse that field sports and wildlife/birding throw at a camera. It was designed to be a specific tool, rather than a more generalist camera.



It seems Canon didn't see it that way:
_"Professional photographers and advanced amateurs have been demanding higher performance and more diverse functions in their cameras, and Canon has answered – with the new EOS 7D."_

Released when the 50D was the highest level of APS-C: _Canon's new EOS 50D bridges the gap between the novice and the seasoned pro with a perfect combination of high-speed and quality._ 

The 7D closed that gap further for Canon, giving a body that feel in between the 50D and the 5D II.

Many complained when the 60D released that it was dumbed down from what you could do with the 50D. It was, most likely they didn't want it competing with the 7D.

The 7D line was not a specialty camera or a specific tool. Photographers that believe in the crop "reach fairy" bought in to the idea that it was a specialty animal to give more reach.

I bought in to this line and bought a 7D, after a few months I realized the illusion and bought a 1D IV. The "reach fairy" is a myth created to sell more crop bodies. 

If I would have had one thing to change in the progression I bought digital cameras I would have never owned an APS-C body. Those 4 bodies would have paid for an R3. I put the R7 on preorder on its release the other morning, I came to my senses a few hours later and canceled.


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 26, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Now it's showing $499 at Canon USA as well.
> 
> View attachment 203882


That’s strange. It says MSRP $479.99, Canon Store price $499.99.


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## neuroanatomist (May 26, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> You can criticize my experience all you want, but unless you present factual, documented evidence to the contrary about who bought what camera models with or without kit lenses and why, and how many other bodies those buyers owned, you're just stabbing in the dark at the same time you're criticizing me for introducing anecdotal information about people I've actually known and interacted with at sporting events, concerts, festivals, etc. How many 7D/7DII owners that only had one body have you personally interacted with on multiple occasions?


I am stating an opinion, that's why I used phrases like 'I suspect...' and 'I believe...' Clearly, you're also stating an opinion, and it differs from mine. But you cannot demand that I present factual evidence on unit sales data to support my stated opinion when you have none to present to support your own opinion. I have anecdotal information of my own, in that I knew/know many photographers that upgraded from a Rebel to a 7D, and some subsequently to a 7DII, and while they probably kept the Rebel in a drawer or closet as you suggested, their 7D/7DII was their primary camera, not a timeshare with a FF camera. 



Michael Clark said:


> So just maybe the larger differences in the kit prices had to do with the difference between the price of the EF-S 18-135mm f/ 3.5-56 IS and the EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS?


Gee, you can look up camera prices on the internet. You must be very proud of your Google-fu, Grasshopper. Your ineffectual sarcasm aside, obviously the difference in kit lens price is what's driving the difference in kit costs. That's exactly my point, thank you for supporting it. 

Just in case you're still missing it, the point is that if one was upgrading from a lower-tier APS-C camera to a 7D or 7DII, they would almost certainly already have a standard zoom lens to use on the 7D and could pay the cheaper body-only price. If they were buying a 7-series de novo, they would be getting a cheaper kit lens and thus a cheaper kit. But...if they were upgrading from a lower-tier APS-C camera to a 6D/6DII or buying a 6-series de novo, either way they'd need a standard zoom for their FF camera, because any EF-S lenses they had would not mount on the 6-series body. Thus, most people buying a 6-series as their first FF camera, whether as a first DLSR or an upgrade from an APS-C DSLR, would be paying a lot more than someone buying a 7-series camera whether upgrading or a first-time buyer.


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## Otara (May 26, 2022)

"you'd probably get slightly better image quality with the R5 but slightly better AF performance with the R7 (if it's true that it matches the R3 in Servo AF performance)."

This is too similar to the old '1DX AF in the 7D' talk for my liking. 

I see lots of 'borrowed from R3' talk but nothing saying 'same AF speed as R3' unless Ive missed something somewhere. Similar features and interface doesnt mean much by itself, given the very different sensors involved.

But if it is, great.


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## neuroanatomist (May 26, 2022)

Otara said:


> "you'd probably get slightly better image quality with the R5 but slightly better AF performance with the R7 (if it's true that it matches the R3 in Servo AF performance)."
> 
> This is too similar to the old '1DX AF in the 7D' talk for my liking.
> 
> ...


As I stated earlier, Canon talked up the Servo AF performance of the R3 as being significantly enhanced by the fast readout speed of the stacked sensor that allows the AF system to sample the scene at double the frequency compared to older sensor architecture. The R7 may have inherited algorithms from the R3, but it’s using them with half the data input.

Some people want to believe they’re getting the best for less money. That’s delusion, not reality. My Subaru gets me safely from point A to point B and back, but I don’t delude myself into thinking it’s a BMW.


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## Otara (May 26, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> As I stated earlier, Canon talked up the Servo AF performance of the R3 as being significantly enhanced by the fast readout speed of the stacked sensor that allows the AF system to sample the scene at double the frequency compared to older sensor architecture. The R7 may have inherited algorithms from the R3, but it’s using them with half the data input.



Thanks, I just noticed weasel words and assumed something had to give. Wondered if the smaller battery might have an impact in some way too on processing speed etc.


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## AlanF (May 26, 2022)

It looks like there has been a rush of pre-orders here for the R7 + RF 18-150mm. The pre-order for the Canon UK store is now no longer available but the body alone is, as well as the R10 kit. WEX has removed the half-price offer for the UHS-II cards with it. I got in my pre-order early on the first morning from WEX.


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## canonmike (May 27, 2022)

AlanF said:


> It looks like there has been a rush of pre-orders here for the R7 + RF 18-150mm. The pre-order for the Canon UK store is now no longer available but the body alone is, as well as the R10 kit. WEX has removed the half-price offer for the UHS-II cards with it. I got in my pre-order early on the first morning from WEX.


Curious, Alan, I just checked Canon USA site, where both are available for pre-order, priced at $1499 and $1899, respectively. Personally, I only wanted the body when I pre-ordered from B&H on day one.


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## canonmike (May 27, 2022)

Adorama hosted an R7/R10 discussion with Canon's Rudy Winston. Listening to Rudy's commentary, it was interesting to note that he said that the R7 was not intended to be a direct replacement for the 7Dii nor a successor to the 90D but rather a body that would fit in between these two offerings. In the same interview, he mentioned he doubted there would be any available battery grip for the new R7. Here's a link to the discussion with Rudy. https://www.adorama.com/car7.html. You may have to scroll down to the video link, once on Adorama's site.


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## Sharlin (May 27, 2022)

canonmike said:


> [T]he R7 was not intended to be a direct replacement for the 7Dii nor a successor to the 90D but rather a body that would fit in between these two offerings.


Which is pretty much what it appears to be. It's a logical fallacy – a false dilemma – to insist (as some do) that it must be a direct successor of one of the DSLR models (and if it's not _clearly_ a 7D2 successor then it must be a 90D successor and _obviously suck _)

If anything, the R7 could be seen as a reunification of the original xxD line that was bifurcated when Canon released the 7D and the 60D.


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## Czardoom (May 27, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> Which is pretty much what it appears to be. It's a logical fallacy – a false dilemma – to insist (as some do) that it must be a direct successor of one of the DSLR models (and if it's not _clearly_ a 7D2 successor then it must be a 90D successor and _obviously suck _)
> 
> If anything, the R7 could be seen as a reunification of the original xxD line that was bifurcated when Canon released the 7D and the 60D.


Well said. I am amazed at times at the need for so many on this forum to find these distinct comparisons and to totally compartmentalize the camera offerings. As if camera companies aren't learning things and adapting to the ever-changing market. Clearly, the sales of a high-end wildlife, sports, action camera were not enough to have them release a 7D III. The release of the 90D without also releasing a 7D III proved that, did it not? So no one should be surprised that this new mirrorless camera is not the high-end 7D successor. And yet, in some ways it is - as it inherits Canon's best AF system and subject detection, for a seemingly very low price. And in other ways it is not the successor in terms of body size and weather sealing.

A few months ago, there was a very real possibility that there would never be a crop sensor camera that would be targeted to the wildlife, sports, action shooter. Now we find this new release is a very capable crop camera for that target market (in many ways more capable than many would have have thought for the price). And are people happy...of course not. All they can do is whine and complain that it isn't the EXACT camera they wanted. Well, you know, there could easily have been no crop camera from Canon. Zip. Nothing.

My guess is that those enthusiast photographers that care about the image - about getting the shot - will adapt to whatever they think is missing in the R7 and absolutely love the positives regarding the AF system. Those that care more about the gear will continue to complain.


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## Otara (May 27, 2022)

I think the naming alone means Canon cant entirely escape these comparisons, it wasnt a coincidence that it was released as an R7 vs an R24b, and the R10 as the supposed 0D line replacement - they haven't been reunited, they've been replicated, but with some change in focus as it becomes mirrorless in a shrinking market.

But they obviously think it will get them more buyers as a halo effect than it loses from aggrieved forum members.

So for those who think it does miss fundamental aspects, its not entirely unwarranted to discuss if the emperor is missing some clothes. I did find the 80D AF irritating after the 7D2 for instance, even though in theory there were some improvements, and I dont want to repeat that experience where marketting and reality had some differences with the R3 AF claims being made.

Be nice if people were a bit less pedantic or emotive about it but it could be worse and be anime or Dr Who.


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## Sharlin (May 27, 2022)

Otara said:


> and the R10 as the supposed 0D line replacement


Supposed, maybe, but it's pretty clear that the R10 is not a xxD successor but a step below. A spiritual 77D successor I would say, even though Canon's new tech mean the AF and burst speed are totally unprecedented at that level. Taking the names too literally only serves to confuse.


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## EOS 4 Life (May 27, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> Supposed, maybe, but it's pretty clear that the R10 is not a xxD successor but a step below. A spiritual 77D successor I would say, even though Canon's new tech mean the AF and burst speed are totally unprecedented at that level. Taking the names too literally only serves to confuse.


Rudy Winston made it seem to me that the names coincide with the markets they are after.
It is still a shame to me that the R10 is not weather sealed but I foresee people using it with mostly lenses that are not weather sealed anyway like the RF 100-400, RF 600 f/11, and the RF 800 f/11.


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## Czardoom (May 27, 2022)

Sharlin said:


> Supposed, maybe, but it's pretty clear that the R10 is not a xxD successor but a step below. A spiritual 77D successor I would say, even though Canon's new tech mean the AF and burst speed are totally unprecedented at that level. Taking the names too literally only serves to confuse.


People are just too hung up on the word successor. I think Canon has made it clear that the R7 is the mirrorless camera *that occupies the same place in the canon lineup* as the 7D series did in the DSLR lineup. It is the higher end crop camera. Not as high as many 7D users would like, clearly, but this is the position it occupies whether you like it or not. The R10 occupies the position in the mirrorless lineup that the 90D does in DSLR. A mid-level crop camera. Anyone looking at the price can tell it is not a Rebel replacement, and yet people continue to stupidly make that claim. Of course, the market can change - and may continue to do so at a more rapid rate than camera companies want, but that's the lineup for now. Will their be a "Rebel" crop RF mount camera. Only time will tell, although I think it will inevitably happen. Will there be a higher crop camera than the R7? Seems quite unlikely as Canon is categorizing this as their high-end crop camera.

I'm sure the executives at Canon are shaking their heads. I'm sure many thought that giving essentially the same numbering scheme to the new mirrorless lineup would make it much easier for Canon users to transition and know where the new cameras fit into the lineup. I'm sure they thought that consumers would be smart enough that these are all new cameras and mirrorless represents an opportunity to tweak and modify what sort of spec list would go into each level and what price point was appropriate. Boy were they wrong!

So far, it seems pretty straightforward:

1= highest priced flagship (yet to be seen)
3=next in price
5=next in price
6=next in price
7=next in price
8=?
9=?
10= lowest priced (so far)

Now, we believe there will be an R and RP replacement, will they become the R8 and R9? I have no idea. Will their price necessarily fall between the R7 and R10. I would say no, not necessarily. But I think the general pattern is pretty clear.


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## Otara (May 28, 2022)

I think thats a fairly generous take on marketting strategies.

But when smart and stupid start to appear theres not much point in continuing.


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## Michael Clark (May 30, 2022)

canonmike said:


> Adorama hosted an R7/R10 discussion with Canon's Rudy Winston. Listening to Rudy's commentary, it was interesting to note that he said that the R7 was not intended to be a direct replacement for the 7Dii nor a successor to the 90D but rather a body that would fit in between these two offerings. In the same interview, he mentioned he doubted there would be any available battery grip for the new R7. Here's a link to the discussion with Rudy. https://www.adorama.com/car7.html. You may have to scroll down to the video link, once on Adorama's site.



"... a body that would fit in between these two offerings."

That's pretty much what I've been predicting for months. Just because it isn't a 7D Mark II on _every_ level does not mean it is nothing more than a 90D or M6 Mark II on _any_ level.

"... he mentioned he doubted there would be any available battery grip for the new R7."

That's quite a departure from Chuck Westfall's standard, "I am not at liberty to comment on any future products that Canon may or may not bring to the market place." Rudy has parroted Chuck at that point on more than one occasion in the past. For him to say this it seems to me to be fairly clear he is thinking, ["Not a snowball's chance in..."]


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## neuroanatomist (May 30, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> “…a body that would fit in between these two offerings."
> That's pretty much what I've been predicting for months. Just because it isn't a 7D Mark II on _every_ level does not mean it is nothing more than a 90D or M6 Mark II on _any_ level.


Was anyone predicting the successor to the 90D or 7DII would be nothing more than the 90D? 

Although not necessary for a successor as defined, in the world of consumer products a successor has improvements relative to its predecessor. The 90D improved on the 80D. The 7DII improved on the 7D. I’m not aware of any meaningful ways in which the 90D was a step down from the 80D, or the 7DII from the 7D. 

If the R7 sits between the 90D and the 7DII, then it is the successor to the 90D, but not the successor to the 7DII.


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## Michael Clark (May 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Was anyone predicting the successor to the 90D or 7DII would be nothing more than the 90D?
> 
> Although not necessary for a successor as defined, in the world of consumer products a successor has improvements relative to its predecessor. The 90D improved on the 80D. The 7DII improved on the 7D. I’m not aware of any meaningful ways in which the 90D was a step down from the 80D, or the 7DII from the 7D.
> 
> If the R7 sits between the 90D and the 7DII, then it is the successor to the 90D, but not the successor to the 7DII.



So by your definition the 60D was not the successor to the 50D?

Got it.


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## Michael Clark (May 30, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> It seems Canon didn't see it that way:
> _"Professional photographers and advanced amateurs have been demanding higher performance and more diverse functions in their cameras, and Canon has answered – with the new EOS 7D."_
> 
> Released when the 50D was the highest level of APS-C: _Canon's new EOS 50D bridges the gap between the novice and the seasoned pro with a perfect combination of high-speed and quality._
> ...



You're quoting the sales pitch, not the possible conversations from the board room that centered on what market sector each model was aimed at. All one needs to do is look at the mode dial to see the real difference in design philosophy between the two. Even though you claim the 7D Mark II could do everything the 70D and 80D could, the latter two had all kinds of Scene modes that were not available on the 7D Mark II.

The powers that be at Canon decided to split the x0D line into a more general purpose camera with more attractive pricing (the 60D) and a more robust and speed oriented line in the 7D.

I don't know where you get "the reach fairy" from anything I've said above. The advantage of the 7D concept for certain types of sports, action, and wildlife shooting was the pixel density, not the sensor size. But the smaller sensor size allowed more speed with that higher pixel density by reducing the needed data throughput at a time when data throughput seemed to drive the cost of many cameras from not only Canon but everyone else at the time.

When the 7D was introduced in 2009 Canon was still three years away from unifying the "speed" 1D line with the "resolution" 1Ds line in 2012 with the release of the 1D X.

I don't blame you at all for being disappointed with the original 7D. A lot of us were. Even though it was only 15 MP and had only 9 AF points, I got better pictures from the 50D than from the original 7D. The shot-to-shot inconsistency of the AF system was its Achilles' heel. The 18MP sensor was noisy. But it did show potential in spite of its flaws. And in spite of its flaws, it did allow one to shoot night and indoor sports under relatively dim light with a 70-200/2.8 instead of with a 300/2.8 plus another wider lens (like the aforementioned 70-200 on another body). Not only was a 7D + 70-200/2.8 cheaper than a 1D + 300/2.8 and another body with a shorter zoom, it was also a lot lighter.

The 7D Mark II was everything the 7D should have been. AF was much more accurate and consistent from shot-to-shot in Servo tracking mode. IQ was much better than the 7D. It was built like a tank and has taken punishment I'd have never though it could. For November 2014 it was a lot of camera for less than $1,800. By June of 2015 I picked mine up from B&H for only $1,499 with an extra third party Watson LP-E6N and a small/medium camera bag thrown in.


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## Michael Clark (May 30, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> That’s strange. It says MSRP $479.99, Canon Store price $499.99.



I don't see MSRP anywhere on Canon USA's site, only "Price". Have you got a link?


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## neuroanatomist (May 30, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> So by your definition the 60D was not the successor to the 50D?
> 
> Got it.


So by your definition the R7 is the successor to the 7DII?

Got it.


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## Michael Clark (May 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> So by your definition the R7 is the successor to the 7DII?
> 
> Got it.



No, I've never said that.

What I said the day of the official announcement is what Rudy Winston said in an interview later released by Adorama:

It's somewhere between a 90D and a 7D Mark II.

You're the one categorically insisting that it's a 90D successor and can't possibly be anything more than a 90D successor.


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## Michael Clark (May 30, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> That’s strange. It says MSRP $479.99, Canon Store price $499.99.



As of tonight both say $499.99


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## mdcmdcmdc (May 30, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> I don't see MSRP anywhere on Canon USA's site, only "Price". Have you got a link?







__





Shop Canon Lenses, DSLR Lenses | Canon U.S.A, Inc.


Shop our selection of Lenses, . Explore specs, colors, and other features from Canon U.S.A., Inc. to find the right product for your n




www.usa.canon.com





They're showing the same MSRP and Canon Store prices now but they were different when I posted that the other day.


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## Michael Clark (May 30, 2022)

mdcmdcmdc said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whatever the snafu, it was apparently at Canon USA, not at B&H, which does not surprise me at all. 

Canon seems to have zero concern about what kind of company their web site(s) project them to be, at least in the U.S. I can't even use Chrome (my preferred browser for most things) to shop in their store or log into my CPS account and see what is on my equipment list. I have to use MS Edge. What is on my CPS equipment list is rarely synchronized with what is on my "Registered Products" list at the general Canon USA site. When I send something in for service to Norfolk, I can't check order status using Chrome, it has to be Edge. Sometimes it doesn't even work then.


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## unfocused (May 30, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> So by your definition the R7 is the successor to the 7DII?
> 
> Got it.


A successor is simply something that follows its predecessor, there is no rule that a successor has to have every feature of its predecessor. The features of the R7 fall somewhere between the 7D II and the 90D, but more in line with the 7D. It seems to be a successor to both cameras, just as the 1Dx was the successor to two cameras.


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## AlanF (May 30, 2022)

unfocused said:


> A successor is simply something that follows its predecessor, there is no rule that a successor has to have every feature of its predecessor. The features of the R7 fall somewhere between the 7D II and the 90D, but more in line with the 7D. It seems to be a successor to both cameras, just as the 1Dx was the successor to two cameras.


Let’s hope it is simply a success!


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## JustUs7 (May 30, 2022)

unfocused said:


> A successor is simply something that follows its predecessor, there is no rule that a successor has to have every feature of its predecessor. The features of the R7 fall somewhere between the 7D II and the 90D, but more in line with the 7D. It seems to be a successor to both cameras, just as the 1Dx was the successor to two cameras.


And in many ways, it goes way beyond both of them.


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## canonmike (May 31, 2022)

AlanF said:


> Let’s hope it is simply a success!


Well said.....


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## Midge (May 31, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Since the 90D was the new repackaged 7DIII that makes sense.


Except that it wasnt as good weather seal wise.And it has only one card slot. A question for all. In the UK we are still waiting for Canon to release stock, so I would like to know what anyone who has got their hands on an R7 makes of it. I have read countless field test reports and they are so mixed regarding performance and build etc. What are your thoughts if you are a user already please?


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## takesome1 (Jun 1, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Even though you claim the 7D Mark II could do everything the 70D and 80D could, the latter two had all kinds of Scene modes that were not available on the 7D Mark II.


You are right, all the cameras at the 7D level and above do not have the Scene modes. I guess Canon assumed that if you were an advanced armature or pro you should know how to set your camera for various scenes. I find it amusing that you used that example.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 5, 2022)

takesome1 said:


> You are right, all the cameras at the 7D level and above do not have the Scene modes. I guess Canon assumed that if you were an advanced armature or pro you should know how to set your camera for various scenes. I find it amusing that you used that example.



I find it amusing that you're agreeing with my point that the 7D Mark II was a more specialized camera instead of a general purpose one like the 80D intended for a wider range of users, including less experienced shooters.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 5, 2022)

Midge said:


> Except that it wasnt as good weather seal wise.And it has only one card slot. A question for all. In the UK we are still waiting for Canon to release stock, so I would like to know what anyone who has got their hands on an R7 makes of it. I have read countless field test reports and they are so mixed regarding performance and build etc. What are your thoughts if you are a user already please?



No one who ordered a production model has gotten one yet. 

All of the reviews out there that actually tested a camera in hand did so with pre-production loaners from Canon.


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## Midge (Jun 5, 2022)

Then I guess we will have to wait just a little longer for the general release and find out for ourselves. As a 7Dmkll user this seems a natural progression IF what we are told is true regarding focus accuracy and speed, compatibility with EF glass and the sensor quality/processors are as described. Its just a big unknown as yet.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 5, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> I find it amusing that you're agreeing with my point that the 7D Mark II was a more specialized camera instead of a general purpose one like the 80D intended for a wider range of users, including less experienced shooters.


The R7 has an SCN setting on the mode dial, consistent with it being more a 90D successor than a 7DII successor.


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## takesome1 (Jun 5, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> I find it amusing that you're agreeing with my point that the 7D Mark II was a more specialized camera instead of a general purpose one like the 80D intended for a wider range of users, including less experienced shooters.



That cracks me up.
With those kind of twist or turns you must have been a gymnast in your younger days.
Or worse, a politician.

I do agree, the 80D is intended for the less experienced shooter.
At its release Canon said:
*In today’s world, where everyone is a photographer or videographer,*


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## Michael Clark (Jun 5, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> The R7 has an SCN setting on the mode dial, consistent with it being more a 90D successor than a 7DII successor.



As I've been predicting for well over a year, the R7 is a little bit of both that is somewhere between the two. Rudy Winston said the same thing last week.

Canon named it the R7 because they see it as fitting in the same market segment as the 7D Mark II did, just as they named the R5 and R6 to communicate that those cameras fit the same market space as the 5D Mark IV and 6D Mark II before them did.

Canon bases model names on market segments, not specs. They always have and probably always will.

*You can continue to deny the obvious if you wish to continue making a fool out of yourself. *

The 90D only had a 120,000 actuation shutter rating and one memory card. It had an intentionally downgrade AF system from the top APS-C AF system in the 7D Mark II. It had a smaller viewfinder than the 7D Mark II. The 90D, introduced in 2019, only has an USB 2 interface. The 90D has a polycarbonate body.

The R7 has a 200,000 shutter rating (just as the 7D Mark II did). The R7 has two memory card slots. By all reports it has the same AF software as the R3 and sensor pixel density, which contributes to DPAF performance, that is higher than the R5. It has a larger VF than the 7D Mark II, not to mention the smaller 90D VF. The R7 has an USB 3.2 interface, compared to the USB 3 interface the 7D Mark II, introduced in 2014, has. The R7 has a body made of magnesium alloy and engineering plastics. This slots it between the magnesium alloy body of the 7D Mark II (though there were external parts of the 7D Mark II body that were plastic, like the pop-up flash cover) and the polycarbonate body of the 90D.

Yes, the narrower baseline of APS-C will always result in slightly lower AF performance than FF cameras with the same level of hardware and software. But the 90D also had downgraded software and hardware compared to the 7D Mark II, which had the same software and very similar hardware, other than the narrower baseline, as the 5D Mark III and the 1D X that were both current when the 7D Mark II was introduced.

The 90D and 7D Mark II only had two continuous shooting speeds, the R7 has three, similar to the higher tier 5D Mark IV.
The R7, at $1,499, is priced exactly between the introductory prices of the 7D Mark II ($1,799) and the 90D ($1,199).


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 6, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> As I've been predicting for well over a year, the R7 is a little bit of both that is somewhere between the two. Rudy Winston said the same thing last week.
> 
> Canon named it the R7 because they see it as fitting in the same market segment as the 7D Mark II did, just as they named the R5 and R6 to communicate that those cameras fit the same market space as the 5D Mark IV and 6D Mark II before them did.
> 
> ...


Time passes. Technology improves. On certain specs, the R10 surpasses the 7DII. Even the T8i has features like 4K video and focus peaking that aren’t found on the 7DII. It’s certainly logical that newer cameras will have features not found on other cameras, even higher end models, simply because newer cameras are newer.

The R5 equals or surpasses the 5DIV on most or all specifications. The R6 equals or surpasses the 6DII on most or all specifications. The R7 sits between the 90D and the 7DII. If the R5 sat between the 5DIV and 6DII, only a fool would consider it to be a successor to the 5DIV.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 6, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Time passes. Technology improves. On certain specs, the R10 surpasses the 7DII. Even the T8i has features like 4K video and focus peaking that aren’t found on the 7DII. It’s certainly logical that newer cameras will have features not found on other cameras, even higher end models, simply because newer cameras are newer.
> 
> The R5 equals or surpasses the 5DIV on most or all specifications. The R6 equals or surpasses the 6DII on most or all specifications. The R7 sits between the 90D and the 7DII. If the R5 sat between the 5DIV and 6DII, only a fool would consider it to be a successor to the 5DIV.



Technological improvements are one thing. Product line segmentation is quite another thing.

Whether a camera has one or two memory card slots has absolutely nothing to do with technological improvements and everything to do with product line segmentation. Ditto for shutter endurance ratings when much higher ratings have been used in relatively low cost bodies for years.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 6, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> If the R5 sat between the 5DIV and 6DII, only a fool would consider it to be a successor to the 5DIV.



Well, I guess Canon's marketing department are fools, then?


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 6, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Canon bases model names on market segments, not specs.


That is a pretty good point.
Most of us expect the R1 to be over 45 MP.
That would make the R3 more of the 1DX replacement but the R1 would be targeted at the 1DX market.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 6, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> Well, I guess Canon's marketing department are fools, then?


Of course they’re not. Are you foolish or naive enough to believe that telling the truth to customers is the intent of a marketing department?

_“Canon is thrilled to announce the R7. It’s a step down from the 7D Mark II in several ways, and a step up in several others. We’re calling it the R7 because we want 7D Mark II owners to think it’s the successor to their camera, we want 90D owners to think they’re moving up a line when they’re really not, and mainly because the ILC market is swirling around in the toilet and Canon simply can’t support having so many different lines.”_

Anyone in their marketing department who wrote that would be fired. Even though it’s true. Especially because it’s true.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 6, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> That is a pretty good point.
> Most of us expect the R1 to be over 45 MP.
> That would make the R3 more of the 1DX replacement but the R1 would be targeted at the 1DX market.



I'm not sure I'd agree that the R1 will be targeted at the 1D X market, which was aimed at sports and photojournalism professionals where very high resolution is more of a disadvantage to many than an advantage.

What the R1 and the 1-Series overall seem to have in common is the cachet of being at the top of the heap in terms of a no expenses spared camera body that offers things, such as integrated vertical controls and much larger battery capacity, which no other body in the catalog does. As such, the R3 will serve one end of the 1-series market while the R1 will serve the other.

At one time that "flagship" status was mostly reserved for full time professionals shooting a wide variety of use cases: Photojournalism, sports, fashion, architecture, real estate, high end portraiture, weddings and events, etc. But many of those sectors have far fewer full time photographers than they did even a decade ago. Real estate, at least for properties below the 95th percentile, is much more often than not shot with automated 360° cameras these days. Fashion, high end portraiture, and high end commercial work has moved back to MF, though digital MF is hardly the same format size as it was with film. The wedding market has been eroded by many folks who consider their friends' smart phone images "good enough" on one end of the continuum and by "weekend warriors" willing to shoot for far less than what is needed, after expenses, to support a full time salary on 40-45 dates per year on the other end of the same continuum.

It seems to me, though I could be wrong, that the R1 will be a camera squarely aimed at the well-heeled enthusiast market which is continuing to emerge as the dominant portion of the highest tier stills camera buying sector as the rank and file sports/PJ sector continues to shrink with the demise of print journalism and the consolidation of web-based journalism with fewer and fewer staffers who are provided top end gear being replaced by more and more poorly paid freelancers who must provide their own equipment.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 6, 2022)

Michael Clark said:


> 1D X market, which was aimed at sports and photojournalism professionals


The 1DX was always much more than just that, but if you imply that the R3 is a better fit for sports and photojournalism, I very much agree.
However, plenty of sports photographers and photojournalists use the R5 right now.
By target market, I mean people who buy flagships.


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## EOS 4 Life (Jun 6, 2022)

Midge said:


> Then I guess we will have to wait just a little longer for the general release and find out for ourselves. As a 7Dmkll user this seems a natural progression IF what we are told is true regarding focus accuracy and speed, compatibility with EF glass and the sensor quality/processors are as described. Its just a big unknown as yet.


I guess it depends on what you get out of it.
I think most of us can agree that the R7 is a different camera.
For some of us, it replaces everything that we need.
For others of us, it does not.
It is the same thing with the R10.
The R3 has very little in common with the EOS 3 other than the eye-controlled autofocus but that is a stand-out feature for the EOS 3.


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## Sporgon (Jun 6, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The 1DX was always much more than just that, but if you imply that the R3 is a better fit for sports and photojournalism, I very much agree.


Quite right. In fact some of the very few genuinely professional landscape photographers, such as Sebastiao Saldago and Colin Prior use the 1DX series, despite them not being 100 mp


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 9, 2022)

pzyber said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if these will replace the R and the RP.



I would be very surprised. When was the last time an APS-C camera replaced a full frame? Totally different product lines.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 10, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> The 1DX was always much more than just that, but if you imply that the R3 is a better fit for sports and photojournalism, I very much agree.
> However, plenty of sports photographers and photojournalists use the R5 right now.
> By target market, I mean people who buy flagships.



The 1D and 1Ds were more than that. The 1D X series not so much.

In 2012 Canon made a conscious decision to design the 1D X as primarily a sports/reportage camera and move the high resolution market over to the 5-series.
The 5-series went from excellent IQ but with Rebel level AF and other prosumer level features in the 5D Mark II to a pro level AF system and features just a tic below the 1-Series with the 5D Mark III that started shipping the same month as the 1D X in March of 2012.

With the shift in the primary market for the 1-series from the ever dwindling number of full time pros, particularly those in staff positions with media companies large and small who issue company gear to them, to well financed amateurs and hobbyists, Canon seems on the verge of reintroducing a 1-series body with resolution at least as high as the R5 because some of those well-heeled enthusiasts would rather pay more for a 1-series body with 45-50 MP than pay less for a 5-series body with the same resolution and similar AF performance and only slightly fewer/lower other features.

Plenty of sports and pj photogs use the R5 now because they have to buy their own to get paid pennies on the dollar as a freelancer compared to what they were making 15-20 years ago when the company provided them with all gear. That trend was already well underway by 2012.

From this article published in 2015:
What Killed Editorial Sports Photography?: You’ve Got To Hustle As A Sports Shooter These Days​"It’s very simple. There are not many clients left who will pay for working photographers to create original content at a ballgame of any kind. The market is flooded with free or cheap wire pictures that are good enough for most end users. The ride is over. It was fun while it lasted." - Brad Mangin, who has had over 83,000 captioned images published in various top-line sports publications since 1987.

"It has been going on for some time but this “corporatization” of the sports industry has been accelerated because now corporations are in control and it is only big business and big money to them. What I have found with big money is that they want it all for themselves and very little for others." - Michael Zagaris, who started shooting for the San Francisco 49ers in 1971 and the Oakland A's in 1981 and has had his work appear frequently in Sports Illustrated, The Sporting News, Inside Sports, and used by Topps and Upper Deck.


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## Michael Clark (Jun 10, 2022)

EOS 4 Life said:


> For some of us, it replaces everything that we need.



For many of us, no single camera can do everything that we need very well. Different use cases require different tools.

In may ways, an R5 (or even an R6) + an R7 works better than a single R1 might, even though the R1 will very likely cost more than an R5 + R7 _combined. _Even an R6 + R7 may work better and cost about the same as a single R5 for those who need to shoot with different lenses mounted on two bodies at the same time.

It's not much different than how much better even a mid-grade normal zoom (24-70/4) + a mid-grade telephoto zoom (70-200/4), maybe even from a third party like Tamron or Sigma, will serve most of us better than a single 28-300mm/3.5-5.6L that costs more than the other two combined.


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## canonmike (Jun 23, 2022)

So, has anyone rec'd notification that their R7 body or kit has shipped?? Supposedly, they were to start shipping today, June 23, from various vendors, including B&H. As of late this morn, I have not rec'd any shipping info on mine. I pre-ordered early on May 24. Still shows backordered on BH site, as well as Canon USA store. Y'day, Amar Talwar of 247 media group put out a YT video, stating that he had spoken with B&H y'day, who indicated his R7 body would be shipping today. Of course, the day is not over yet, so maybe we'll see some posts from fellow CR members, indicating their R7's have shipped.


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## Kit. (Jun 23, 2022)

I was called today by a German shop about my pre-order of the R7 (without a deposit). They have received a small batch. Handed over my slot to the next in the line, as getting the camera is currently not a priority for me.


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## Stig Nygaard (Jun 23, 2022)

__
https://flic.kr/p/2ntJGVc
Just bragging about my new Canon EOS R7 which I received yesterday where I also took this shot 

A quick very early first initial immature impression:





Picked up my new EOS R7 today - Went a late visit to the nearest pond...: Canon EOS R Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review


Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.




www.dpreview.com


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## adrian_bacon (Jul 19, 2022)

I was just looking at the specs of the R10 and it occurred to me that it very well may be the intended replacement to the RP. If Canon truly isn't going to directly replace the RP with another full frame low cost body (I hope that they do, the 5DIV sensor and updated electronics would be great), the R10 very well may be it. I see the RP as the upgrade path for digital rebel and M series users because it uses the same battery, the LP-E17 and sensor aside, shares many of the same electronics. The R10 also uses that same battery and has similar resolution as other rebel and m series bodies, so very well could be the new intended gateway body to migrate users to RF mount over time.


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