# So confused. Could you make me more?



## sanj (Nov 9, 2019)

I am an avid photographer. I make a living in movies. I direct, I cinematograph. But my real passion is photography. 
I am very excited about the Canon 1dx3. I had 1dx2, 5d4 and lenses that got stolen. I want to rebuild my gear now but do not want to spend all the money I have (daughter's college loan!). 

Although I really like the specs of 1dx3, the RF lenses attract me so much. The 50mm, the 85mm, 80-200mm. 

So here is the confusion. Part of me feels I should forget about RF lenses and reinvest in DSLR. I tell myself the 50mm EF and 50mm RF can't be so different in real life. (But I know they are!). R does not compare with 1sx3 (But feel one day soon there will be a Canon mirrorless that will beat 1dx3). 

Do any of you go through these thoughts? Any advice for me?


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## ethanz (Nov 9, 2019)

Dump Canon and get the Sony A74r. So much better. #CanonIsDoomed


What about the R does not compare well for you?


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## Quirkz (Nov 9, 2019)

My very subjective opinion would be - go cheap on the camera. Get a RP during the thanksgiving sales. Spend the extra on lenses, and leave some cash for the next gen eos R when it appears. It’s what I’d do if my 5d4 were stolen. I stick with my RP until whatever dream camera came next. Until then, I love my RF glass. 

As to the 50mm 1.2 - it’s much better than the EF... but is it much better than the sigma 1.4 art I sold to buy it? Yes, but.... It’s better, but not by so much I can easily tell in most pictures. But the native AF is magnificent.


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## jd7 (Nov 10, 2019)

Not sure that any of this is really going to help - and you've probably thought about these things already, but ... 

What is it about the 1Dx3 which appeals to you over the R for the photography you want to do? How do you feel about the R's EVF? Do you think you would use the R's eye AF a lot? Do you think you would simply enjoy picking up one camera and going out to shoot with it more than the other?

What is your budget? My view is EF lenses are generally better value than the RF lenses at the moment. Of course, you can use EF lenses on the R wtih an adapter anyway, so that may not be a big differentiating factor for you, so long as you don't mind using an adapter.

Are there any RF lenses which you would actually use which don't have something very comparable in EF? Comparing the RF 50/1.2 and RF85/1.2 to the Canon EF versions is all very well, but in my view you should also compare against third party EF lenses, the Sigma Art series being an obvious (but not the only) example. And there is also the question of what lenses produce images you simply like, regardless of which lenses test better on a bench or chart (latest doesn't have to mean greatest, especially when greatest is ultimately subjective). From what I've read and seen, to me the biggest advantage of the RF primes seems to be AF speed, giving you a greater ability to shoot moving targets at wide apertures. (I haven't used the RF lenses so I cannot speak from experience.) Otherwise, the RF 28-70/2 and the relatively light and compact RF 70-200/2.8 seem to be the two RF lenses which, at least at the moment, don't really have an EF equivalent - and of course of the RF 70-200/2.8 does have an EF equivalent if the extra size and weight isn't significant to you.

For me, I already have a DSLR and EF lenses, I prefer OVF to EVF, I am happy about the longer battery life you get with DSLR, and if I had an R I'd still shoot EF lenses at least for the most part - because of the price of the RF lenses and my view that as good as they are optically, good EF lenses are comparable in real world shooting. If I was starting from scratch now it would be harder, but I think I would end up still going with DSLR ... although I admit that RF 70-200/2.8 has got my attention (well, assuming the IQ is up to scratch when we get to see it - presumably it will be). That is just me though. There seem to be more than a few people who have moved from DSLR to the R and been very happy about it, including people like Viggo who were using 1Dx level cameras.

Anyway, it seeems to me that both DSLR/EF and R/RF have their pros and cons, at least at this point in time, so in the end you just have to pick your poison. You can produce good images either way though, so whichever you choose you can't really go that far wrong.


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## Ozarker (Nov 10, 2019)

1. Nothing appeals to me about the 1DX III over the R. They are two very different models for two different uses. I shoot portraits, not sports.
2. The R's EVF is great for me.
3. I would abosolutely prefer to pick up the R and shoot with it oner a 1DX Mark III.
4. I use the R's Eye-AF a whole lot.
5. My EF lenses were not in the same league as my RF lenses. Better value? That depends upon which lenses you are talking about.
6. Sold all my EF equipment, and I had a lot.
7. The RF 50 f/1.2L and 85 f/1.2L beat the EF 50 f/1.2L and 85 f/1.2L in my opinion.... I have never owned either EF, but have read the complaints.
8. 3rd Party: I have never owned a Sigma. I have owned a Tamton 15-30. The Tamron was nice. However, I will never buy another.
9. I don't care about test charts and prefer a vignette for my uses. I never look at test charts. Never.
10. I actually prefer the EVF over the OVF my 5D Mark III had.
11. I can't speak to whether the EF 50 f/1.2L or 85mm f/1.2L are as good as the RF versions. I can only say what I have heard others say... not even close.
12. Both EF and RF have advantages and disadvantages. For me, the advantages of the R far out weigh the advantages of my old 5D Mark III. The disadvantages of the R are minuscule compared to the 5D Mark III. Again, for my use.
13. The R serves me well.


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## Maximilian (Nov 10, 2019)

Hi sanj! 

I suppose you should ask yourself first - and also tell us - what kind of photography, what subjects, are your real passion. 
Especially when it comes to fast movements (sports, wildlife, kids) IMO the Canon EVF is not good enough yet to keep up with OFV. 
But IMO it is also clear that sooner or later the main focus of Canon will be on EOS R/RF system. 

If I were in your situation not wanting to spend too much money but beeing able to get good IQ today but also to have the possibility to improve in future I'd be confused as well.
Personally my focus is more on wildlife, sports and kids and as a 1D series is too big and expensive for me I'd turn to a 5D4 (maybe a 5D5 next year) or a 6D2 to save money for lenses.
If I was more into landscape and portrait I'd second *CanonFanBoy *who gives us a really good impression what an EOS R and RF prime can do.
But here the prime lens and it's price would make me go "Outch!". And cheaper RF lenses are not in sight yet.

So make up your mind about main subject and the lenses FL you need to cover from the start, think about budget you can effordlessly spend (now), rent/test an R and its EVF.
If you can share some results of these thoughts with us we surely can try to counsel you in a much better way.


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## docsmith (Nov 10, 2019)

Didn't your gear get stolen a couple of years ago too? If so, crazy.

This is a bit more complicated than usual as it is not just about buying the right camera, but buying into the right "system." And while many are convinced EOS-R is "the systems of the future" I do not expect the EF system to be obsolete for probably another ~10 years, maybe even 15 yrs. I just do not see Canon abandoning their high end users that buy a 1Dx3 anytime soon.

I say this as I recall your frequent Africa trips and have admired your wildlife photography. While I do not own an R, I have not seen anyone proclaiming it is better than a 1Dx for wildlife. 

So, if purchasing right now, and assuming you still shoot a lot of wildlife, I would consider two scenarios: 1) you get back into the EF ecosystem and plan on using that gear for ~10 years; or 2) you split and get a 1Dx2/3, and keep your telephoto to supertelephoto lenses as EF but replace your 5DIV with an EOS-R and go with RF lenses for UWA to general purpose. As already mentioned, if you do not mind the ergonomics, switching to Sony is an alternative depending on how brand agnostic your are.


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## Ozarker (Nov 10, 2019)

docsmith said:


> brand agnostic



That's a cool phrase. Gonna have to remember that one. +100 for originality


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## unfocused (Nov 10, 2019)

My thoughts as owner of too many cameras.

*1Dx II --* Used almost exclusively for sports. None of my other cameras match it for sports. But, it is not perfect. Autofocus could be improved and it could use more resolution. It looks like the Mark III will improve the autofocus and I hope it will improve the resolution. Frankly, if they took the 30 mp sensor of the 5DIV and R and put it into the 1Dx, I'd be happy. Still, despite whatever weaknesses it has it is absolutely the best for fast action. It is absolutely the worst choice for situations that require you to be unobtrusive. The "silent" shutter is a joke.

There are tons of little niceties with the 1D series that I tend to forget about until I try to find them on another camera – The ability to download all your settings to a card so that you don't have to redo them after it's been in the shop is one example. The complete customization of the "Q" screen is another. 

*5DIV -- *Great all-around camera. It can be used for action, but not quite up to the 1Dx due to the lower fps. Great for events, especially when you need to be discrete. The "silent" shutter isn't silent of course, but quieter than 1Dx by several multiples. The 30mp sensor of the 5D and R perform as well at high ISO as the 20 mp sensor of the 1Dx. For birds and 
and wildlife I actually prefer the 5DIV to the 1Dx II because I feel the extra resolution of the sensor outweighs the slower fps. Autofocus is essentially the same as the 1Dx II.

*R –* Over the past few months this has become my main camera, displacing the 5DIV in most cases. I have really come to love the ability to move autofocus points around using my thumb. I like it for portraits because I can nail the eyes much easier with it. For events, I feel that with the touch screen autofocus point selection it is more responsive. Also, if you need a truly silent mode, the silent shooting is actually kind of creepy it is so truly silent.

I really feel like the R has improved my composition, because I can quickly move the focus point anywhere I want. Instead of composing a shot based on where the focus points happen to be available, I can compose the shot and move the focus points to match. 

Works pretty well with birds in flight and wildlife, with some notable exceptions. With birds in flight, it can hunt for focus, causing you to miss shots. When it does find focus, it locks on very well.

What’s not to like: I can’t get the hang of using it for sports. It’s not responsive enough for my tastes and the teeny-tiny back-button focus button is impossible to find consistently.

The tiny buttons on back also mean I find myself accidentally changing the various focus selection modes at inconvenient times.

The touch bar is kind of useless to me and in fact, when I have tried to use it, I found it to be a bit buggy, working sometimes and not at other times.

The firmware update improved the eye autofocus, but not well enough to work if you are shooting more than one subject. In sports shooting, it will move off the selected subject and find another player’s eyes/face making it unreliable.

The single point selection box is too big in some case and it could use the additional smaller point that can be found on the 1Dx, 7DII and 5DIV.

*7DII –* I mention this only as a point of comparison and a bit of nostalgia for a body that Canon seems to have killed off prematurely. In short it has almost all the benefits of the 1Dx II in a crop body. I still find myself gravitating to the 7DII if I'm shooting birds in good light. That said, I've found that the extra cropping allowed by the 30mp sensors of the 5DIV and R compensate a bit. 

What good is this to you?

There is no one camera to rule them all. If you don't shoot sports, birds in flight or other fast-moving subjects, I'd recommend the R with no hesitation.If you really want the best Canon has to offer, shoot action and never need to shoot meetings or other venues where discretion is needed, the 1D series won't disappoint.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 10, 2019)

So sorry to hear about your gear, sanj. And I understand your confusion, as the Rf lenses are so very tempting: They have immediate quality, and they _seem_ to be the more future-proof investment.

However, decisions must be made. I echo above advice: In your situation, heaven forbids, wanting a single body that is robust and flexible, I'd go with a 5DIV and a few well chosen lenses. I'd go refurbished as much as possible. Then, in a couple of years, if Canon does put out the action-capable bodies we are hoping for, the 5DIV can be sold or used as a still worthy second shooter, and you can decide which EF lenses to keep and which to sell and upgrade.

Best regards!


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## docsmith (Nov 11, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> That's a cool phrase. Gonna have to remember that one. +100 for originality


It'd be fun if I could claim I came up with that, but I've heard it a few other times....


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## Ozarker (Nov 11, 2019)

docsmith said:


> It'd be fun if I could claim I came up with that, but I've heard it a few other times....


Maybe so, BUT I HEARD IT HERE FIRST!


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## Ozarker (Nov 11, 2019)

unfocused said:


> *R –* The touch bar is kind of useless to me and in fact, when I have tried to use it, I found it to be a bit buggy, working sometimes and not at other times.



At first the touch bar was useless to me. Then, through Viggo and another user, I finally found a use that works well for me:
1.Tap right = histogram on/off
2. Tap left = level on/off
3. Swipe right = magnify
4. Swipe left = unmagnify

Anyway, that works well for me. I use the magnify mode when focusing my old vintage lenses, along with focus peaking.

I love that little camera and cannot hardly wait to see what the high resolution model brings.


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## sanj (Nov 11, 2019)

Thank you ALL: CanonFanBoy, docsmith, YuengLinger, Unfocused, Maximillan, DJ7, ethanz, Quirkz. Many of you have made great points and made me re-think everything. Some very good questions asked and suggestions given. 
Unfortunately, I have yet to conclude. I have waited so many months, will give it 3/4 more and wait for the III and the new high MP R body. 

My prediction: I think Canon will win and make me buy both the upcoming cameras: III for action and video work with select EF lenses; the new R with select RF lenses. Anyways we need 2 bodies right? 

Damn I can visualize maximizing my card. :-(


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## sanj (Nov 11, 2019)

CanonFanboy thanks for sharing the lovely photos.


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## Maximilian (Nov 12, 2019)

sanj said:


> ... me buy both the upcoming cameras...
> Damn I can visualize maximizing my card. :-(


As long as you don't have to sell one of your kiddies and your daughter can still go to college…? 


> Anyways we need 2 bodies right?


In my honest opinion: Not from the start!
Even if you think you cannot decide, just do it. 
If you think you'll buy the 1DX3 anyway, go with it first and leave the high MP body (specialist) and RF lenses for later.
The 1DX3 is the much more versatile tool. And it seems the one to be released first. 
So you'll get your hands on it sooner


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## Sporgon (Nov 12, 2019)

sanj said:


> Thank very good questions asked and suggestions given.
> My prediction: I think Canon will win and make me buy both the upcoming cameras: III for action and video work with select EF lenses; the new R with select RF lenses. Anyways we need 2 bodies right?


Ha Ha Sanj, you cooked up this whole thread just so the replies would justify your desire for both ! Crafty !


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## sanj (Nov 13, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> Ha Ha Sanj, you cooked up this whole thread just so the replies would justify your desire for both ! Crafty !


Hahahahahaha. You made me laugh aloud. Let's see how it goes.


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