# 5D3 No Longer in Production



## Mr. P (Aug 17, 2014)

I was at a major retailer today (I will leave their name out but it rhymes with 'chest guy') and I was asking them to price match the 5D3 for me. While they were looking it up they pointed out that their system indicated Canon is discontinued. 

The system said they will still have the 5D3 in stock through 2017, but could the fact that they are no longer manufacuring new units be an indication that a 5D4 is coming soon than expected? Is this just an errorr on thier part or is this something that is already known to everyone but just news to me?


----------



## Hillsilly (Aug 17, 2014)

Based on the timing of prior model releases, I suspect 2016 or 2017 is when we're likely to see a 5D4. I'd be a little surprised if turned up sooner.


----------



## Straightshooter (Aug 17, 2014)

Mr. P said:


> I was at a major retailer today (I will leave their name out but it rhymes with 'chest guy') and I was asking them to price match the 5D3 for me. While they were looking it up they pointed out that their system indicated Canon is discontinued.
> 
> The system said they will still have the 5D3 in stock through 2017, but could the fact that they are no longer manufacuring new units be an indication that a 5D4 is coming soon than expected? Is this just an errorr on thier part or is this something that is already known to everyone but just news to me?




I'll call my friend at HQ Tokyo and get back to you! 8)


----------



## x-vision (Aug 17, 2014)

Mr. P said:


> While they were looking it up they pointed out that their system indicated Canon is discontinued.



It wouldn't be all that surprising if a high-resolution 5DIV is announced at Photokina next month.
But I'd be surprised if the 5DIII is already discontinued. 
I'd fully expect that the 5DIII will continue selling alongside the 5DIV at least for a while.


----------



## Maximilian (Aug 17, 2014)

Hi Mr.P! 

I don't know how Canon is doing and planning their production cycles.
Maybe your information is right, but it's hard to believe.

I suggest, that we'll see a 1DX successor in 2015 first. 
And then - maybe in late 2015 - but more believable in 2016 a 5D3 successor.

I don't know, if it's cost effective for Canon to put a camera mordel on stock for at least 2 years. 
I think cash flow and so on is speaking against it. But maybe they need the space in their factory to built up new production lines.

My guess:
Don't expect a 5D4 too soon. 7D and 1DX successor will have the stage first.


----------



## gjones5252 (Aug 17, 2014)

Hey used to work at that which shall not be mentioned for far to long. Those numbers in that app were always a bit of a mystery who and how they got there. And while discontinue dates couldn't be trusted as a frugal the start dates could. This is why items like wii and xbox 360 would be given these random model numbers. That way it was hard to find for nosey employees wanting release dates. Discontinue dates was more so we new just when we stopped carrying it after the fact. Sometimes it would even say we still carried old tech that wAs not true. Long story short don't make your peanut utter and jelly on this bread.


----------



## Lightmaster (Aug 17, 2014)

Mr. P said:


> I was at a major retailer today (I will leave their name out but it rhymes with 'chest guy') and I was asking them to price match the 5D3 for me. While they were looking it up they pointed out that their system indicated Canon is discontinued.



they should get a better system.


----------



## K-amps (Aug 17, 2014)

Looking at Canon's refresh cycle, I find it hard for them to ship a 5d4 prior to 2016.

Having said that, if they have truly developed a groundbreaking sensor that redefines performance at this price point the way the 5d2 did, then they could surely announce one sooner, because they would not have (just taking an example here) a 7dii sensor with 14 stops of DR (  ) selling alongside a supposed higher end FF body with a lessor sensor. 

Lets see how the 7D2 measures up and decide if we want to ditch our 5d3's just yet.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 17, 2014)

March 2012 the MK III shipped, so Q1 next year is definitely a possibility unless Canon want to grab the Xmas sales. I'd doubt they would go out of stock however in August unless there's a lot to clear...

If the sensor is that much better on the 7D MK II, eclipsing the MK III and 1DX, then I can see launches in the first half of next year. Bearing in mind how much money Canon make from the MK III and the rumoured release of a new FF nikon at Photokina which I think will directly compete with the MK III (not like the D810), then I think Canon releasing a replacement in 2015 is not so far fetched....


----------



## PureClassA (Aug 17, 2014)

All depends on how much pressure Canon feels to unleash a HIgh MP competitor to to the D800 / 810. canon sales figures seem to suggest there isn't much any . That said, it would be nice to see something in that 3-4k range like the D800 that has High MP and great low light performance. 

I would agree we will see a 1DX replacement before we see another generation of the 5D or replacement


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 17, 2014)

Best Buy 'discontinued' the 5DII at least three times before the 5DIII was announced (and Canon didn't discontinue the 5DII until well after the launch of the 5DIII).

So I'd say this means nothing.


----------



## Sporgon (Aug 17, 2014)

Sounds a load of cobblers to me. The 5DIII is such a well received and successful camera the only thing that could result in a premature replacement is if the new 7DII has a radically improved sensor technology.


----------



## FEBS (Aug 17, 2014)

Mr. P said:


> The system said they will still have the 5D3 in stock through 2017, but could the fact that they are no longer manufacuring new units be an indication....



Impossible. no, but really no company can afford in a technology behaving market to place more then 2 years of stock for a product. No shareholder will accept this and no CEO would dare to. 

Remember Cisco in the '90s, the really were lucky to survive.


----------



## alexanderferdinand (Aug 17, 2014)

Canon has a lot of selfconfidence to predict the sales of this (any) item for the next 2 years.....

OR: the new 7D is that good, nobody will buy any other camera z


----------



## tron (Aug 17, 2014)

Mr. P said:


> I was at a major retailer today (I will leave their name out but it rhymes with 'chest guy') and I was asking them to price match the 5D3 for me. While they were looking it up they pointed out that their system indicated Canon is discontinued.
> 
> The system said they will still have the 5D3 in stock through 2017, but could the fact that they are no longer manufacuring new units be an indication that a 5D4 is coming soon than expected? Is this just an errorr on thier part or is this something that is already known to everyone but just news to me?


Honestly, I believe that your retailer rhymes with bed sheet...


----------



## Chisox2335 (Aug 17, 2014)

FEBS said:


> Mr. P said:
> 
> 
> > The system said they will still have the 5D3 in stock through 2017, but could the fact that they are no longer manufacuring new units be an indication....
> ...



Agreed. I'm sorry but I call bs on this story or you spoke to an incompetent employee there, which is entirely possible. No company is going to discountinue the product in August 2014 but keep enough built up inventory to sell into 2017.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 17, 2014)

dilbert said:


> To roll out new sensor technology across its line of DSLRs.



You mean the *rumored* new sensor technology which Canon may or may not have ready for production, for which we have no evidence other than rumors and patents (most of which never become products).


----------



## Chisox2335 (Aug 17, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Well against this outcome there is already the rumor that Canon will launch new models early in 2015.
> 
> Why would it do that?
> 
> ...



The information in the story doesn't jive. They wouldn't have 2.5 years of stock, especially if they were ramping up to launch and announce a 5d4. I'm not saying it's not feasible to announce another model but they won't have 2.5 years of stock on the 5d3 which is why I question the knowledge of the salesperson in the first place.


----------



## Mr. P (Aug 17, 2014)

Chisox2335 said:


> FEBS said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. P said:
> ...



I am as unsure about all this as you are but it was what I was told and what I saw when I looked at their computer system (albeit I also have doubts about the validity of their system and their employees interpretation of that system). 

However, something else to consider is that the retailers system also showed they only had 11 units of the camera in stock nationwide. 

This retailer isn't really known for selling these kinds of cameras and do not even carry any models in their retail stores. If you want to get one from them you have to order it online. 

So is it really that far fetched that a company like this could support the camera until 2017, given that they may only sell one or too models quarterly as an entire company? In that case Canon would not need an exorbitant amount of stock to keep up with this companies low demand.


----------



## e17paul (Aug 17, 2014)

If Canon don't have something up their sleeve, the high ISO performance of the D810 will give them something to think about. 
www.thephoblographer.com/2014/08/17/review-nikon-d810/#more-64169

Hopefully Canon have also accelerated to a 2 year update cycle. Meanwhile, no other lens could match my 24 IS. That and the rest of my investment keeps we with Canon.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 17, 2014)

Mr. P said:


> I am as unsure about all this as you are but it was what I was told and what I saw when I looked at their computer system (albeit I also have doubts about the validity of their system and their employees interpretation of that system).



Here's a thread about Best Buy discontinuing the 5DII a year before the 5DIII was announced. 

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=950.0

A few weeks later, it was back in stock.


----------



## East Wind Photography (Aug 17, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Best Buy 'discontinued' the 5DII at least three times before the 5DIII was announced (and Canon didn't discontinue the 5DII until well after the launch of the 5DIII).
> 
> So I'd say this means nothing.



Yes i think what it indicates is "chest guy" is discontinuing it because of poor sales. They will order one if a customer wants it.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Aug 17, 2014)

e17paul said:


> If Canon don't have something up their sleeve, the high ISO performance of the D810 will give them something to think about.
> http://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/08/17/review-nikon-d810/




Yikes! [url=http://3zgehi1uaxi23dphbrgqa50r6z.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Chris-Gampat-The-Phoblographer-Nikon-D810-high-ISO-samples-Speakeasy-Dollhouse-NYC-7-of-9ISO-128001-60-sec-at-f-1.8.jpg]This is impressive, is it?

Or this?

Looks bloody grim for 12,800 ISO, to my eyes...

This looks awful for 3200 ISO too.

Just for some perspective, here's a 100% crop of a 12,800 ISO snap out of my old 7D, straight out of DxO Optics 9 with its _standard_ (not PRIME) NR at default. 

Here's the Exif: 137mm, *f/2.8, 1/125, ISO 12,800*, Canon EOS 7D

Floodlit the subject was not. 

Don't think Canon has much to learn from Nikon in the high ISO stakes, but the reviewer looks to have a lot to learn about what to do with high ISO files...


----------



## Joe M (Aug 17, 2014)

Mr. P said:


> I was at a major retailer today (I will leave their name out but it rhymes with 'chest guy') and I was asking them to price match the 5D3 for me. While they were looking it up they pointed out that their system indicated Canon is discontinued.
> 
> The system said they will still have the 5D3 in stock through 2017, but could the fact that they are no longer manufacuring new units be an indication that a 5D4 is coming soon than expected? Is this just an errorr on thier part or is this something that is already known to everyone but just news to me?


If you'd like to know if Canon is still manufacturing the 5D3, I'd fire off an email to the production manager in Japan rather than go through the sales person at "Best Buy". 
What the "sales person" at this store really meant to tell you is that they do not sell this camera often and that _they will not be ordering new stock as it will take them forever to sell the one they have in the store (likely not before 2017)._


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Aug 17, 2014)

dilbert said:


> So you're saying that Canon wouldn't want bring out a new sensor to try and spur sales growth across their lineup?



What - you mean, follow Nikon's lead?

*Not doing them much good as far as actual sales of cameras is concerned, is it*?

You _still_ don't get it. Canon is selling more cameras than Nikon and Sony _right now_, with its existing sensors: _because most photographers don't care about, or need, the niche benefits that "superior" low ISO DR provide_. 

So this "improvement" would be an irrelevance to the majority, and will do bugger all to "spur sales growth".


----------



## Act444 (Aug 17, 2014)

Doesn't sound right...it must be some kind of mistake.

In fact, if it's Best Buy I'm almost SURE it's a mistake. Don't get me started with them...


----------



## DRR (Aug 17, 2014)

Chisox2335 said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Well against this outcome there is already the rumor that Canon will launch new models early in 2015.
> ...



I agree.

If this is true and Canon has already manufactured 2.5 years worth of 5D3 to sell alongside a 5D4, that makes them not only incredibly vulnerable to things like a firmware bug, which would need to be fixed on ALL cameras they have in stock, but it is also a huge waste of money to warehouse and ship those cameras when something new is available.

It also does not make sense to run two camera lines that are so similar from a manufacturing perspective, for 2.5 years. It would be much more efficient to put those resources into making more 5D4s or 1Dx2s or 80D or SL2 or whatever.

I don't think it's out of the question for them to announce something new even as a "speed bump", (for example, the 1D Mark IIn,) but they won't run it alongside the existing 5D3.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 17, 2014)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



So you're saying that Canon's dSLR sales are suffering because of their current sensors? Got any evidence for that? or does the evidence show that Canon's major competitor, with their 'better' sensors made by someone else, is predicting greater losses than Canon?

Still, it would be great if Canon developed a new sensor technology that would appeal to consumers and could be rolled out to spur sales across the lineup. Oh, wait...they did, with DPAF.


----------



## canon1dxman (Aug 17, 2014)

There isn't a chance in a million years that Canon will have built 30 months inventory of anything. No right minded company would even contemplate such a move for any manufactured product.


----------



## unfocused (Aug 17, 2014)

There are dozens of logical explanations for this (the clerk didn't know what he was doing; somebody mis-typed a number; an arbitrary date chosen far into the future for inventory control; etc. etc.)

The only explanation that is not logical is that Best Buy's inventory control system is directly linked to Canon's production line. Yet, that's what would be required for this to be plausible.

We can safely file this under "goofy" and move on.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 17, 2014)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



Read...then read again. Maybe the highlighted part will make it clearer. Why are their sales declining? Where is your evidence that Canon's sensors are the cause? Nikon has 'better' sensors, yet their sales are declining _more_. 



dilbert said:


> > Still, it would be great if Canon developed a new sensor technology that would appeal to consumers and *could be rolled out to spur sales across the lineup*. Oh, wait...they did, with DPAF.
> 
> 
> 
> Except that none of the full frame cameras have DPAF or do you mean to say that consumers don't buy full frame DSLRs?



Read...then read again. Maybe the highlighted part will make it clearer. How many FF cameras have been released after DPAF was introduced in the 70D?


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 17, 2014)

It would not surprise me if production on the 5D MK III has stopped, and retooling is underway for the next model. The early leaks on the 7D MK II were likely due to the same thing. However, Best Buy is well known for declaring products as discontinued, and then correcting their system.

I'm one who believes that if a new sensor appears in the 7D MK II, and it is exceptional, Canon already knows that sales will plummet on the 5D MK III and 1D X series, and will have to come out with new models. They also likely know what the competition is planning, and want to be ready. A multi layer sensor that actually works will bring more accurate colors, better saturation, and a host of new problems that we have yet to discover. It will not increase high ISO capability because of the layers, but BSI should lower noise which may help.

If you have a bridge that you want to sell, let me know


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 17, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'm one who believes that if a new sensor appears in the 7D MK II, and it is exceptional, Canon already knows that sales will plummet on the 5D MK III and 1D X series, and will have to come out with new models. They also likely know what the competition is planning, and want to be ready. A multi layer sensor that actually works will bring more accurate colors, better saturation, and a host of new problems that we have yet to discover.



If. And if the technology scales to FF. It was also previously suggested that Canon might lead off with a 'gimped' version of the new sensor tech in a 7DII/X, precisely so sales don't plummet on current FF models.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 17, 2014)

Hillsilly said:


> Based on the timing of prior model releases, I suspect 2016 or 2017 is when we're likely to see a 5D4. I'd be a little surprised if turned up sooner.



16 or 17???? Without a super high MP or high low ISO DR camera for that long?? without 4k for that long?
that would be a good way to pull an Atari

next year for sure, maybe even the spring (hopefully)


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 17, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Did you used to run Atari in the early to mid-80s??
I could swear you did.
Or was it Nokia more recently?


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 17, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I'm one who believes that if a new sensor appears in the 7D MK II, and it is exceptional, Canon already knows that sales will plummet on the 5D MK III and 1D X series, and will have to come out with new models. They also likely know what the competition is planning, and want to be ready. A multi layer sensor that actually works will bring more accurate colors, better saturation, and a host of new problems that we have yet to discover.
> ...



You can bank on that!!


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 17, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



So DPAF will be the savior??

And what about for video where they took the world by storm with the 5D2? So they sit around and wait until 2017 to put out a 5 series that does 4k (and has reasonable built-in usability features and built-in 1080p RAW)? Canon will be so beyond and afterthought by that crowd by then it won't even be funny.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 17, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> So they sit around and wait until 2017 to put out a 5 series that does 4k (and has reasonable built-in usability features and built-in 1080p RAW)? Canon will be so beyond and afterthought by that crowd by then it won't even be funny.



YAPODFC. 

Yet another prediction of doom for Canon. 

Yawn. 

:


----------



## Maiaibing (Aug 17, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> You _still_ don't get it. Canon is selling more cameras than Nikon and Sony _right now_, with its existing sensors: _because most photographers don't care about, or need, the niche benefits that "superior" low ISO DR provide_.
> 
> So this "improvement" would be an irrelevance to the majority, and will do bugger all to "spur sales growth".



Why are you so sure about this? DSLR sales are virtually collapsing. Seems likely (but not possible to verify 100%) that Canon currently is loosing market share in a rapidly shrinking market. Sounds like bad news to me.

As I see it they have every reason to do what they can here & now to regain both sales numbers and market share.


----------



## Maiaibing (Aug 17, 2014)

As previously posted in another thread; Based on previous 5D-launches we should expect a new 5D4 around 2Q 2015 with possible announcement 4Q 2014 if loaded with "new exciting" tech [5Dii-scenario with months of pre-release teasers] or 1Q/2Q 2015 if only an "update" of the 5D3 [5Diii-scenario with announcement followed by almost immediate release].

Of course past patterns may not say much about the future - but on average they seem to be far our best guide when it comes to actual camera model updates from Canon.

Personally I hope for a 5D4 loaded with "new exciting" tech, larger better high-iso sensor is essential for me, more accurate and wider focus points very important, face recognition, wi-fi & swivel screen would be nice upgrades.

Time will tell...


----------



## Hannes (Aug 17, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> So DPAF will be the savior??
> 
> And what about for video where they took the world by storm with the 5D2? So they sit around and wait until 2017 to put out a 5 series that does 4k (and has reasonable built-in usability features and built-in 1080p RAW)? Canon will be so beyond and afterthought by that crowd by then it won't even be funny.



But how big and profitable is that crowd really? What you are forgetting is the entire eco system available and in that respect canon is brilliant. Just look at the C100, who in their right mind would buy that thing when you look at the specs on paper? Yet it sells pretty well for what it is. Maybe canon has decided the enthusiast VDSLR market isn't big enough to invest lots of money on, especially when they have a cinema line. This obviously does nothing to the appeal for the vast majority of people buying a canon camera and have heard the video is good. These are the middle class moms who want to film their kids school play and if they go frivolous they might get a XXXD camera. DPAF is likely to be more important that the right codecs or 4K for what they make their money on, i.e. entry level cameras. 

The 5DII kickstarted this and laid the foundation for canon to be successful in video. Sure they aren't selling many C500 but the C300 seems to be the defacto standard in reality TV and given the majority of the programming available is in that genre Canon may actually be on to a winner.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 17, 2014)

dilbert said:


> You're focusing on the wrong part of the problem.



You're unable to answer a direct question. I asked one, your answer was a total fail, and now you want to change the subject to a question you think you do know the answer to, even though you're failing to answer your own question correctly. Sigh. 




dilbert said:


> Sales are declining so the challenge is to sell more units.
> 
> The best way to sell more units is to make the unit more attractive to buyers.
> 
> ...



Of course new technology is a good idea...necessary, in fact. To date, your whole schtick on these forums has been that Canon's sensors are inferior (because they offer less low ISO DR than SoNikon). It's been thoroughly explained to you that Canon's lower low ISO DR has been a fact for years, and they're still the market leader. You've also frequently stated that Canon's lesser low ISO DR demonstrates their failure to innovate. DPAF has been a frequent response (by me and others) to your whining, and now all of a sudden it's _your_ idea that DPAF is a great new technology, and _I'm_ agreeing with _you_??

It's sad that you can't even get your own story straight. Total metacognitive fail.


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 17, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Sales are declining so the challenge is to sell more units.
> 
> The best way to sell more units is to make the unit more attractive to buyers.
> 
> New features, be they software or hardware are a good way to make something more attractive to buyers.


so simple and so true.....


----------



## jdramirez (Aug 17, 2014)

I worked at a major electronics and appliance retailer a few years back and I noticed the 60d was discontinued. It wasn't... we got more in a few weeks later. I wouldn't believe what the computer says unless there is an announcement or a major price drop.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 18, 2014)

Hannes said:


> The 5DII kickstarted this and laid the foundation for canon to be successful in video. Sure they aren't selling many C500 but the C300 seems to be the defacto standard in reality TV and given the majority of the programming available is in that genre Canon may actually be on to a winner.



Sometimes people forget that Canon has been a huge player in video, along with Panasonic and Sony.

Canon has decided to now go after the Cinema business, and has made it a priority. It is listed in their most recent financial report as a company priority.

That is taking resources from still cameras. When the 5D MK II came out, a market soon devolped for accessories that were needed to make it a serious video camera. Now, there are large sensor video cameras from Canon which have video features included.

Before the 5D MK II, the price of entry for 2K digital video was $150K. Now, for under $20K you can get excellent equipment. DSLR video will be a feature for consumer use, and certainly PJ's and wedding professionals may use it, but the serious side of video now has access to proper equipment for a reasonable price.

Cinema has big $$ budgets, and Canon wants a large slice of that. They understand that local support located on site and in Hollywood with fast service turnarounds will mean more than a few dollars difference in price, or a difference in specifications.


----------



## slclick (Aug 18, 2014)

pish posh. anywho, they can come out with a 5D9Mk2 and I'll still be happy with mine. My 5D3 won't stop working when the successor arrives.


----------



## Chisox2335 (Aug 18, 2014)

Mr. P said:


> Chisox2335 said:
> 
> 
> > FEBS said:
> ...



I just found 11 stores within two hours of me that have it in stock. I'd venture to guess I'd find more if I extended my search further.


----------



## Etienne (Aug 18, 2014)

There has been a lot of innovation since the 5D3 was released, so Canon might release a 5DIV earlier. I love my 5D3, but I love new capabilities too, so I'm looking forward to even better high ISO, Dual pixel AF, 4K video in camera, video goodies like focus peaking and false color, and I'd welcome a swivel touch screen (I could keep it closed to protect it, and yet it would be invaluable for video and weird angles).
Let the tech wars continue, and bring on the 5D4!


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 18, 2014)

ok, thoughts...first off, best buy isn't in the market of selling pro or semi pro gear, so what some random sales clerk says is the last things I'd trust in regards to the future of a semi-ro/pro product line. 

What I love most about this is the predictability of all the responses. 

In a nutshell,

Some say this means the 5d3 will be out like tomorrow ---well, not if they have 2.5 years of stock left! If they have 2.5 years of stock left, then when will the 5d4 come out ---- in about 2.25 years! I highly doubt that.

now for all the sidebar stuff.

1dx2 before the 5d4? What are you guys smoking? Looking at the last cycle - the 1dx was announced in october of 2011 - released in march of 2012 but wasn't shipping until June. the 5d3 was announced in March of 2012 and available shortly after being announced. I would think the next cycle of updates will follow that same pattern - announce the flagship but don't release for a long time. then announce the 5d4 and have it be available shortly after the announcement. 

then the gloom and doom report, and the failed idea that canon needs to do anything for more than bragging rights ---- the market decline is not because it has no good products on it (if this were the case then I'd think nikon and sony would be holding steady, but they are losing ground) - the market is declining for a bunch of reasons - because it's hit a saturation point, also because the technology has matured, because we are in a global recession and disposable income isn't as readily available, and yes, because the market has changed. the soccer moms don't give a rats ass about DR or low ISO IQ - and they are the ones buying consumer grade cameras en mass. If sales are slipping for that market segment it has less to do with real features and more to do with how it's marketed and the actual demand for the product.

"Sales are declining so the challenge is to sell more units." 

This is true - but - this is more of a challenge for the marketing/advertising department. R&D is expensive, if sales are declining and the market is shrinking (this has happened even with the release of the A7, A7r, A7s, d4x, d810, and d610). Has any of the 6 bodies listed there jump started So-nikon-y's sales? their #'s are still just as down as Canon's. 

That don't bode well for the idea that the dumping a ton of $$$$ into R&D to put a body that has better specs on the market will be the solution to the problem of "Sales are declining so the challenge is to sell more units."

And, this one I gotta just direct quote -



dilbert said:


> So in order to keep sales up..
> - Nikon churns through models
> - Sony reinvents the camera
> - Canon does nothing except take consolation in knowing it sells more units than Nikon/Sony and just watches sales decline?
> ...



Ok, yes - nikon churns out models - I call that the - "lets piss off all those that bought d4's and d800's by launching new models with slightly improved specs and fixes to bugs in the original model approach. did it help? Not in droves because most buyers of either body aren't rushing to purchase because their d4's and d800's still have such low shutter counts - 4k or 5.5K is a lot of $$$ to spend on a marginal upgrade...

Sony reinvents the camera..... wow...hyperbole maybe a little....just a wee bit???? Yes, they are the first to put a FF sensor in a mirrorless body, but come on, this does not reinvent the camera! 

Then there's this - "Canon does nothing except take consolation in knowing it sells more units than Nikon/Sony and just watches sales decline?" Well, you said it yourself, they sold more units than sony. All of those things that sony and nikon are doing isn't helping ---- Honestly I wish it was because that would mean that the economy is rebounding and the market is shifting back to quality over quantity. A strong nikon and sony leads to a stronger canon (and vice versa). 

"Irrespective of whether or not Nikon/Sony have better or worse technology their activity keeps their models current and in the mind of consumers. Shorter product life cycles means that they can react quicker too."

WOW...I kind of already stated how I feel about that.. . but... really short product life cycles on items with high price tags don't go over well. Save the short upgrade cycles for the sub 1K market, as incremental upgrades can be more easily glossed over with big advertising and crafty marketing.

Given all the above there though, canons conservative pragmatic approach is really wise considering the market climate.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> The absence of a new lower end APS-C camera (xx0D) makes for interesting speculation that they've held off releasing a new camera because they realise there's no point in making it as the 7DII will make it seem irrelevant. When you put all of the rumors together plus this one that Canon may have stopped production of the 5D3 already then it is a bigger picture worth looking at.



Why do you persist in avoiding direct questions, making incorrect statements and refusing to admit your mistakes?

A 7DII costing over double what an xxxD model costs will make the latter irrelevant? A rumor that Canon has stopped 5DIII production based on what a Best Buy floor clerk said?

No, those are so utterly ridiculous that it's not worth discussing them further.


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> The absence of a new lower end APS-C camera (xx0D) makes for interesting speculation that they've held off releasing a new camera because they realise there's no point in making it as the 7DII will make it seem irrelevant.



WHAT?

You realize that the best selling Canon camera is the T3.... and that it outsells every other camera Canon makes combined! This is because you can get the camera and lens CHEAP!. Apparently, for the masses, cheap beats IQ hands down...

So somehow a 7D2, probably for $2500 WITHOUT a lens is going to somehow mean that there will be no more demand for a $400 camera with lens, when price seems to be the dominant market force for the masses?

Are you sure of your logic?


----------



## Sporgon (Aug 18, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > The absence of a new lower end APS-C camera (xx0D) makes for interesting speculation that they've held off releasing a new camera because they realise there's no point in making it as the 7DII will make it seem irrelevant.
> ...



You guys just don't know how to deal with a petulant, rather retarded child, do you ?

The 7DII is a *big* camera that is going to cost-a-lot-of-money, and the xxxD is a *little* camera that does not cost-as-much-money.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> ...am I just crazy?



See...there's a direct question, and I'll answer it: Yes. 

If a 'new' sensor goes into the next xxxD, it will be the 70D's sensor, not some new tech which may or may not appear in the 7DII.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> To me it seems that it is quite likely the next xxxD will have the same sensor as is in the 7DII. If they bring it out before the 7DII then maybe they think it will eat away some of the 7DII sales from the people that have a 7D now and are just looking for a camera that produces better IQ (and not necessarily better fps/AF) whereas if the first camera that 7D owners see with the new sensor is the 7DII then they stand to get more carry over sales from people who see it and say "I WANT!" (or at least that's my thinking, feel free to point out where I'm wrong.) So new sensor in new 7D model, maximise profits from upgraders buying new expensive camera that they may not need but want.
> 
> Now had they of released a new xxxD camera a month or two ago with existing sensor technology and then a few months later the 7DII comes along with a new sensor then maybe they're afraid that sales of the xxxD will stall because people will wait for xxx+1D from Canon with the same upgraded sensor tech that is in the 7DII. That would also prevent them from releasing a new xxx+1D that uses the new tech in the 7DII in the first half of 2015 because it would be too soon between models. It won't necessarily matter what is new in the 7DII just that the 7DII will have all the new stuff and people will want the new stuff in cheaper bodies and may delay purchasing decisions because of it.
> 
> ...



I think you are right!

Its a typical policy for all manufacturers, and Canon is nothing, if not consistent and conservative in their operation.


However, with DSLR sales dropping, Canon may just not want to turn out new models as fast. A new model, even if it only has a new badge on it costs a manufacturer a ton of money. Old stock must be discounted, advertising materials and media must be updated (It costs a lot of $$ to make new TV commercials). The cost of stocking warehouses with a rebadged product is also high, they have to build cameras at full speed for 3 -6 months to get them in the pipeline. Doing this every year is a business expense that drags down profits, and if it does not generate enough new sales to make a good ROI, Canon won't do it.

Canon had stated (about a year or two ago) that a new 7D would only come out when there was a significant upgrade, obviously, they have been working at finding better technology that is producible at a target cost and sell for a big profit. Once they skim the cream off the early adopters, the upgrades will trickle down to consumer models, and some of the advanced tech held back from a 7D will appear in the high end models.

Canon is very predictable.


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


much better explained.... and it does sound like a possible plan, but my bet is that the next rebel (xxxD) model will come out with the same sensor as the 70D and that the delays in the 7D2 are due to problems moving to a finer fabrication line.... but this is just a guess... I have no inside knowledge. If I did have any inside knowledge I would be silent and wouldn't speculate, so it is a safe bet that all of us who are enjoying this discussion are in the same boat


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



this is starting to make less and less sense - again, we're comparing a sub 1K body to a new body with unknown specs and prices that may land in the +2k realm. Sorry, but anyone looking for better IQ that doesn't need the fps and tracking (7d users that don't shoot sports and birds) already has an option - the 6d sits in that sweet spot for price and IQ between at close to 1.6K. Also, if your a 7d user who has patiently waited for a while now, why would they jump ship for an xxxd body? Especially if they know the 7d2 is right around the corner.

It's more likely that canon is waiting on releasing a new xxxd or xxxxd body until the holiday season because those bodies are much more likely to sell as gifts than a 2k+ pro body.


----------



## Sporgon (Aug 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



The now 18 mp ubiquitous sensor first made its appearance in the 7D. Did this next appear in a xxD or a xxxD ? I'm not sure but my guess is that is was an xxD, perhaps the 60D.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 18, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> The now 18 mp ubiquitous sensor first made its appearance in the 7D. Did this next appear in a xxD or a xxxD ? I'm not sure but my guess is that is was an xxD, perhaps the 60D.



In fact, it did appear next in the T2i/550D, but not until the following year, then in the 60D a few weeks later. It's certainly in Canon's best interest to use a sensor in multie bodies across multiple lines. 

What's crazy and illogical is to take two separate facts (that the 7DII might have new sensor tech and that there hasn't been an xxxD update this year), and draw a causal link between them. It's particularly crazy and illogical given the existence of a new 20 MP DPAF sensor that's been used in just one body to date. Canon has made APS-C sensors used in only one body, but those have all been xxxD/xxxxD bodies, where the production volume means costs are recouped without needing to 'trickle down'.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 18, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > The now 18 mp ubiquitous sensor first made its appearance in the 7D. Did this next appear in a xxD or a xxxD ? I'm not sure but my guess is that is was an xxD, perhaps the 60D.
> ...



It does sound like Canon is clamping down on costs. There have been some rumors saying that new sensor is difficult to produce, so dropping it into a low end body might have to wait until production costs drop and volume can be increased. It also differentiates the 70d line and provides a enticement for buyers to spend more money. Its hard to tell why it has not trickled down yet. I'm not sure how 70D sales stand, but, if they are relatively high, then Canon will not want to pull the rug from under high profits. Nikon has done that, and hurt profit levels.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 18, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> It does sound like Canon is clamping down on costs.



Absolutely. Their camera division is still running a small profit despite drops in sales, and that's mainly due to 'operational efficiencies' (= cutting costs).


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 18, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > It does sound like Canon is clamping down on costs.
> ...



this is pretty spot on. And to add fuel to the fire, thinking of it like this then makes it extremely unlikely that the have 2.5 years of backstock built up. That is one of the rules of having efficient inventory. An operational efficient company would never keep that much stock in inventory.


----------



## YuengLinger (Aug 18, 2014)

Act444 said:


> Doesn't sound right...it must be some kind of mistake.
> 
> In fact, if it's Best Buy I'm almost SURE it's a mistake. Don't get me started with them...



Certain b&m big box retailers understandably get aggravated with all the showcasing and price matching. The speculation the clerk was rambling on about in the original post sounds exactly like somebody unhappy with the job, unhappy with the customer, but quite happy to yank somebody's chain.


And here we are dozens of posts later.


----------



## mackguyver (Aug 18, 2014)

YuengLinger said:


> Act444 said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't sound right...it must be some kind of mistake.
> ...


B&H regularly marks out of stock items as discontinued as well, so it's not just the big box stores...


----------



## DRR (Aug 19, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> B&H regularly marks out of stock items as discontinued as well, so it's not just the big box stores...



Yes and that's more a failure of the terminology they use rather than the actual system itself. Often "out of stock" means they don't currently have it but there is an expected date when it will be in stock again. "Discontinued" does not necessarily mean "EOL by the manufacturer" it often means the scheduled shipments have been discontinued. In other words it just means, we don't have any and we don't know if/when more are coming because there's no scheduled restock date. Retail stock systems are not meant to mirror manufacturers' terminology.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2014)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Sporgon said:
> ...



My mistake. Although, back in 2000 with Canon's first dSLR (their own, that is), there was nowhere in the lineup for any trickling, because there wasn't a lineup, just the one camera. Plus, the D30's $3000 price tag certainly helped them recoup the development costs. After the D60, Canon basically created the consumer dSLR market by launching true 'consumer level' dSLRs.


----------



## pablo (Aug 19, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> My mistake. Although, back in 2000 with Canon's first dSLR (their own, that is), there was nowhere in the lineup for any trickling, because there wasn't a lineup, just the one camera. Plus, the D30's $3000 price tag certainly helped them recoup the development costs. After the D60, Canon basically created the consumer dSLR market by launching true 'consumer level' dSLRs.



In the same way that god created man, or that Isaac Newton 'invented' gravity?

Canon might have created the camera for the identified market, but they didn't create the market.
Consumer level is really just a price point for many intents and purposes, the Minolta RD cameras preceded Canon by a few years and they were based not on Dynax 9 type bodies, but the very consumer orientated vectis aps bodies and lenses.

Of course Canon were the first to put it all together in an 'affordable', compact system but they were serving a market rather than creating it.

I'll give canon credit for many innovations and for clever planned obsolescence strategies that keep us buying, but one could argue that the prevalance of expensive, small sensor bridge cameras like the Olympus e10, the Dimage 7, Nikon x800, Fuji 600 series bridge cameras etc actually created the market for consumer DSLRs.

I only say this Neuro, because although you caught up with dramatic pace, you were quite late to the party. 
'you weren't there man!' and all that.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2014)

Created...tapped...exploited...potaaayto...potahhhhto. The 'soccer mom with dSLR' stereotype came about largely due to Canon's Rebel/xxxD line. The 'pro wedding photographer with dSLR', too, when Canon released an 'affordable' FF dSLR.


----------



## drob (Aug 19, 2014)

I'd venture to say that whatever sensor is in the 7DMark2 will be held to the pro lineup. The 70D sensor will trickle down to the Rebels eventually.


dilbert said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2014)

drob said:


> I'd venture to say that whatever sensor is in the 7DMark2 will be held to the pro lineup. The 70D sensor will trickle down to the Rebels eventually.



Exactly. I suspect the 70D sensor will be in the next Rebel/xxxD. The 7DII's sensor will get there, eventually, just as the 40D AF eventually made it to the Rebel line. 

We still have only vague rumors of this 'new sensor' in the 7DII. In fact, they could just put the 70D sensor in there, with 12 fps and a new AF system based on the 1D X, perhaps with a true RGB metering sensor. Or it could be a 24 MP DPAF sensor, otherwise similar to the 70D's sensor in terms of imaging performance, with 10 fps and improved AF. Either of those would likely be lambasted by the usual suspects (DRones) on CR and elsewhere, but would be very popular with consumers (you know, those people who actually _buy_ cameras instead of complaining about them on the interwebs).


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 19, 2014)

dilbert said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Sporgon said:
> ...


Hey! That's what we need now...

An modern APS-C camera with 3Mpixels would have pixels three times larger than the pixels on a 5D3 and should beat it by a stop and a half for low light performance!  a 2Mpixel (1920x1080) sensor would beats the 5D3 by 2 1/3 stops..... how do we get the rumour started that the 7D2 will be a 2Mpixel video optimized mirrorless wifi touchscreen monster with dual microphone jacks and integrated iPhone?


----------



## pablo (Aug 19, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Created...tapped...exploited...potaaayto...potahhhhto. The 'soccer mom with dSLR' stereotype came about largely due to Canon's Rebel/xxxD line. The 'pro wedding photographer with dSLR', too, when Canon released an 'affordable' FF dSLR.



Didn't they just use film rebels?

When you bought your rebel dslr which were you? soccer mom or wedding guy? How very patronising.

Of course modesty diminishes with each dollar soent on white lenses.

I can see from your work you are clearly a pro now.


----------



## pablo (Aug 19, 2014)

pablo said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Created...tapped...exploited...potaaayto...potahhhhto. The 'soccer mom with dSLR' stereotype came about largely due to Canon's Rebel/xxxD line. The 'pro wedding photographer with dSLR', too, when Canon released an 'affordable' FF dSLR.
> ...



work kit


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2014)

pablo said:


> pablo said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



A stereotype is just that, and they exist whether you or I agree with them or not. Some even capitalize on them, go watch some MWAC Attack videos on YouTube (you might learn something about the P mode on your camera!). 

I can see from your words attitude that someone apparently pissed in your Wheaties this morning. How unfortunate.


----------



## Straightshooter (Aug 19, 2014)

pablo said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Created...tapped...exploited...potaaayto...potahhhhto. The 'soccer mom with dSLR' stereotype came about largely due to Canon's Rebel/xxxD line. The 'pro wedding photographer with dSLR', too, when Canon released an 'affordable' FF dSLR.
> ...



;D ;D ;D
+1!


----------



## psolberg (Aug 19, 2014)

pipe dream. there is nothing wrong with the 5DMkIII. As of now it has no direct competitor (that seems to change with Nikon's rumored 2-year newer D750). But even if canon wanted to release it sooner, they are unlikely to do so as they have a lot of RD investment to recoup making the 4-5 year cycle stand.


----------



## jdramirez (Aug 19, 2014)

psolberg said:


> pipe dream. there is nothing wrong with the 5DMkIII. As of now it has no direct competitor (that seems to change with Nikon's rumored 2-year newer D750). But even if canon wanted to release it sooner, they are unlikely to do so as they have a lot of RD investment to recoup making the 4-5 year cycle stand.



I'd anxious to see what will be available in the 5d mkiv, but I'm 1.5 years into owning my mkiii, and I wouldn't mind waiting another two years before I'm tempted to upgrade.


----------



## Tugela (Aug 19, 2014)

Maximilian said:


> Hi Mr.P!
> 
> I don't know how Canon is doing and planning their production cycles.
> Maybe your information is right, but it's hard to believe.
> ...



It depends on how big an advance the 7D2 is. If it is a generation change in terms of technology, you can bet that new versions of the 1D and 5D will be fast on it's heels.

I think that new versions of both the 1D and 5D will be announced in early 2015.


----------



## Sporgon (Aug 19, 2014)

Oh dear there's going to be terrible anguish, spitting feathers and general sabre rattling if the 7DII doesn't have some sensor fabrication advance similar to the Exmor. But you know I'm not really sure how much pressure there is on Canon to catch up on this. It would seem that 99% of Canon users (generically speaking) are not bothered about that particular aspect of the sensor, including many well respected professionals; certainly judging by sales there are many other features which the buying public seem to want. Certainly the amount of people using variable ISO now surprises me, but on the other hand given the performance of a camera such as the 6D I suppose that shouldn't be surprising. And when using variable ISO who wants their DR to drop by a stop or two between ISO 100 and 800 ?


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 19, 2014)

However, something else to consider is that the retailers system also showed they only had 11 units of the camera in stock nationwide. 


This retailer isn't really known for selling these kinds of cameras and do not even carry any models in their retail stores. If you want to get one from them you have to order it online. 


*Baloney!! Just check the stock online at the best buy website to see which stores have them in stock. There is the body only, and two kits available. In Los Angeles alone, there are 5 stores with the 5D MK III bodies, and 4 stores with the 5D MK III and 24-105mm L Lens Kit. (No info about how many of each they have). A quick check of New York City shows six bodies and three kits in stores. That already adds up to 18. Miami Best Buy stores have lots more in stock, and I'm sure that if I checked additional cites that there are a hundred likely more elsewhere. 
*

[/quote]


----------



## Mr. P (Aug 20, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> However, something else to consider is that the retailers system also showed they only had 11 units of the camera in stock nationwide.
> 
> 
> This retailer isn't really known for selling these kinds of cameras and do not even carry any models in their retail stores. If you want to get one from them you have to order it online.
> ...


[/quote]

I don't doubt that. I am just going by what I saw on their computer system and the sales reps explaination. I am as skeptical as anyone but I found it very interesting and wanted to hear everyone's thoughts. I live in a smaller city and there are no 5D3s in any of the stores within driving distance.

Perhaps the 11 units in their system may have just been the body only units in their warehouse, not including what they have in retail stores.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 20, 2014)

Mr. P said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > However, something else to consider is that the retailers system also showed they only had 11 units of the camera in stock nationwide.
> ...



I don't doubt that. I am just going by what I saw on their computer system and the sales reps explaination. I am as skeptical as anyone but I found it very interesting and wanted to hear everyone's thoughts. I live in a smaller city and there are no 5D3s in any of the stores within driving distance.

Perhaps the 11 units in their system may have just been the body only units in their warehouse, not including what they have in retail stores.
[/quote]

If the guy told you that they did not have them in stores, he was lying, and trying to get you to order one online. Unfortunately, salesmen resort to tricks to push a customer into buying. Its likely that he was showing you how many 5D MK III + 24-70 f/4 kits they have in stock. They might even show it as discontinued. 

The point is, you are making incorrect statements that can easily be checked. Why not do it before posting?

I went to the website and put 5D MK III bodies into my cart. They had a limit of five and a note came to call if I wanted more.


----------



## Tugela (Aug 20, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> Oh dear there's going to be terrible anguish, spitting feathers and general sabre rattling if the 7DII doesn't have some sensor fabrication advance similar to the Exmor. But you know I'm not really sure how much pressure there is on Canon to catch up on this. *It would seem that 99% of Canon users (generically speaking) are not bothered about that particular aspect of the sensor*, including many well respected professionals; certainly judging by sales there are many other features which the buying public seem to want. Certainly the amount of people using variable ISO now surprises me, but on the other hand given the performance of a camera such as the 6D I suppose that shouldn't be surprising. And when using variable ISO who wants their DR to drop by a stop or two between ISO 100 and 800 ?



That is because those who are bothered by it will be/are moving to other manufacturers. If Canon are fine with bleeding off their market base, then sure, they won't care. If all depends on if the assumption that Canon are cool with losing market share to more progressive manufacturers is true or not.

I suspect they are not cool with that happening.


----------



## jdramirez (Aug 20, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> If the guy told you that they did not have them in stores, he was lying, and trying to get you to order one online. Unfortunately, salesmen resort to tricks to push a customer into buying. Its likely that he was showing you how many 5D MK III + 24-70 f/4 kits they have in stock. They might even show it as discontinued.
> 
> The point is, you are making incorrect statements that can easily be checked. Why not do it before posting?
> 
> I went to the website and put 5D MK III bodies into my cart. They had a limit of five and a note came to call if I wanted more.



Throttle back now. We don't all jump the gun to assume we are being lied to. And I don't think there ids a really good reason why a salesman would push someone to go online... 

The information may be inaccurate but the driving force to relay said information isn't malicious.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 20, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Oh dear there's going to be terrible anguish, spitting feathers and general sabre rattling if the 7DII doesn't have some sensor fabrication advance similar to the Exmor. But you know I'm not really sure how much pressure there is on Canon to catch up on this. *It would seem that 99% of Canon users (generically speaking) are not bothered about that particular aspect of the sensor*, including many well respected professionals; certainly judging by sales there are many other features which the buying public seem to want. Certainly the amount of people using variable ISO now surprises me, but on the other hand given the performance of a camera such as the 6D I suppose that shouldn't be surprising. And when using variable ISO who wants their DR to drop by a stop or two between ISO 100 and 800 ?
> ...



You skipped a step. No, Canon doesn't want to lose market share. But...you are assuming they _are_, in fact, losing market share. Where is your evidence to support that assumption? It seems equally if not more likely that those who are bothered by a ~2-stops less low ISO DR and switched from Canon to Nikon are outnumbered by those Nikon users hoping for the true replacement to the D700 that never came, and so bought a 5DIII instead. 

As for 'more progressive manufacturers', your definition of progressive is almost as biased as DxO's Scores. DPAF...not progressive? Fluorite elements in supertele lenses, you'd think a progressive company like Nikon would have used them decades ago like Canon did...instead Nikon called them too fragile, only now they're touting the benefits of fluorite in their newest supertele lenses. Limiting the definitions of 'innovative' and 'progressive' to mean achieving more low ISO DR is typical of the biased DRivel posted by the crew of CR Forum DRones.


----------



## Sporgon (Aug 20, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Sporgon said:
> ...



In the course of my work I come across a lot of people with cameras, and not many of those are true professionals. Some are just happy snappers, or tourists, or teenagers aspiring to a better camera. The odd one is a highly successful pro who buys £250,000 yachts with loose change ( seriously). ( zigzagzoe's got a long way to go to catch up). 

Often these people will chat to me and I'll ask them why they chose Nikon, or Canon or Sony ( 'cos it's always one of these). I've never had one single person say they chose Nikon or Sony because of the extra DR that the sensor offers, or that it has more latitude and can lift shadows by five stops without seeing ugly noise. Not one. Ever. 

So although those factors are the number one priority for some, generally very vocal people, and they will move away from Canon, I would suggest they are just a drop in the ocean compared with everyone else. So although I read on CR that Canon is using the same sensor fabrication that Noah had on his Ark, I'm really not sure that Canon are going to see this as a really high priority, especially given the fact that their sales are not declining in relation to Sonikon. 

People _do_ have issues with things like trying to focus in movie mode with a dslr for instance, and Canon have done something about that. I've been surprised by the number of 70Ds I've seen given that the camera hasn't been out that long. I would say that the vast amount of casual users are going to appreciate that more than lifting underexposed areas by five stops, and they are the people who are buying most of the cameras. 

So what I'm coming round to say is I don't think the 7DII will have a radically different sensor fabrication, and I anticipate the howls of derision that are going to fill these pages from the usual sources.


----------



## brad-man (Aug 20, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



It would be interesting to find out what percentage of DSLR owners even attempt to do PP, either in jpg or RAW. I suspect the number is rather low (particularly within the single lens crowd). I am hopeful that Canon will incorporate genuine "new and improved" sensor technology in the 7D's replacement as a matter of pride, as well as an effort to maintain market share. I guess I'm just a romantic.


----------



## Tugela (Aug 21, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Sporgon said:
> ...



The average buyer does not give two hoots about any of those "technical" differences that have little impact on how they use their cameras. All they are interested in is having a capable imaging device that satisfies ALL of their needs.

For them the criteria are different. In the past they needed different cameras for stills and for video. In the past even though still cameras could shoot video, they were extremely clumsy doing it and generated less than satisfactory results. And since the average buyer was only going to invest in one expensive camera that was usually a stills camera.

Now things are different. There are cameras appearing on the market which are very capable shooting both stills and video. When the average buyer gets around to replacing his or her camera every 5 years or so, what do you thing they are going to choose, the Sony/Panasonic that does everything well, or the Canon/Nikon that only does one thing well?

There is a sea change under way in the industry. The highly specialized camera is going to become the province of professionals only. Successful consumer cameras are going to be the ones that shoot both stills and video at a high level. I see lots of people walking around with 5Ds and similar models, none of them are professional photographers, they are housewives and ordinary people. People who will want their cameras to shoot video as well. Right now most of them are not educated about what is going on in the industry because they already have their camera for now, but when it comes to replace those cameras they are going to look around to see what the competition is doing.

That is when Canon and Nikon are going to nose into the ground unless they radically change their attitude. They make most of their money off these ordinary people, and if they don't satisfy the needs of *that* market, the market will find someone else who will. The fact that Canon and Nikon sell lots of cameras today will not help them tomorrow.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 21, 2014)

Tugela said:


> That is when Canon and Nikon are going to nose into the ground unless they radically change their attitude.



YAPODFC :


----------



## npherno (Aug 22, 2014)

Tugela said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...




Nikon is much more vulnerable to a market shift, if one did occur. Sony said they wanted to be number two in the market. Perhaps that is why Nikon is releasing so many cameras? 

Sony does have some interesting cameras, and I do own an NEX. It has quirks, but takes great pictures. I believe that when Sony has a full lens lineup and fixes the rough edges around their UI and AF, Nikon and Canon could be under a lot of pressure to get _new_ (semi)professional customers. New customers will not have a bias toward mirrorless and no investment in lenses.

That said, Canon definitely pisses me off with their "nickel and diming" the customer, but they aren't going anywhere. The RX-100 is the best camera in class, but we will see how that translates to other market segments.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Aug 22, 2014)

Cannot say why I know but Canon ARE NOT replacing the 5D MKIII in the near future & certainly not leading up to Christmas / year end.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Aug 22, 2014)

Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax et al. are all aware the market is changing and the threat from smart phones is not going away. Sales are slipping and if you simply look at the CIPA graph for instance in isolation then its gloom & doom. If you go back many years the average annualized SLR / DSLR sales are around 7-8M. If you allow for the new found affluance in China, India, South American & even small parts of Africa then that number may rest between 9-10M annually. DSLRs peaked just over 16M a couple of years ago and maybe around 12M in 2014 will be sold. As the grapgh notes shipments peak in March / April and September / October so before summer & Christmas meaning the bulk are bought by snappers. 

The 7D has been in production for 5 years a lifetime in cameras, the current 5D MKIII was announced on March 2nd 2012 I cannot see Canon replacing it only after 2.5 years even though volumes are high they are no where near each Rebel which is where the "fickle" customer are and therefor have a lower effect on demand. 

Technology is moving to a point where between camera electronics and editing software many artifacts can be removed that the lens may introduce. This means simpler lenses could and are being made for consumers and they can be made cheaper. Canon could simplify the EF-S lenses and lower the prices for use with the Rebels to help stimulate demand and leave the EF and full frame system intact moving the two further apart. 

GfK state that the only sectors either holding up or growing are high end DSLRS or high end compact system cameras.


----------



## Tugela (Aug 22, 2014)

jeffa4444 said:


> Cannot say why I know but Canon ARE NOT replacing the 5D MKIII in the near future & certainly not leading up to Christmas / year end.



It depends on whether the new 7D introduces a technology generation change or not. If it doesn't there would be no pressing need to update the other high end models, but if it does you can bet that new 1D and 5D models will come not long after no matter when earlier models were released.

Anyway, the rumor was that an updated 1D would be announced first, followed by a 5D, in Q1 2015 IIRC. 

Something else you need to remember is that the 5D is (or rather was) exploiting the DSLR video market as well, and with current offerings from Panasonic and Sony it is pretty much dead in the water in that respect. I imagine that Canon management will want to do something about that sooner rather than later.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Something else you need to remember is that the 5D is (or rather was) exploiting the DSLR video market as well, and with current offerings from Panasonic and Sony it is pretty much *dead in the water* in that respect.



Interesting suggestion. Do you have any actual data to back up that claim?


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

Dr Brain, do you have any data to back up anything other than the fanboi reciepts you accumulate?

We all love canon gear. You have spent more than most on it. Great. Stop being a bully. Your cr geek status doesn;t necessarily equate to you being correct. You've been in the system what? 5 years. c'mon man. Lay off.


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Something else you need to remember is that the 5D is (or rather was) exploiting the DSLR video market as well, and with current offerings from Panasonic and Sony it is pretty much dead in the water in that respect. I imagine that Canon management will want to do something about that sooner rather than later.



+1

4K may well just be about marketing at this stage of the game. But then, isn't it all really just about marketing?
Anybody who really believes canon are giving us their best available are either deluded or about to switch to a nikon or sony camera.

It's a long ball game. But new canon cameras should be able to at least hint at being able to pick up the ball and run with it for a bit.

I'm not in the market for a new video DSLR, but if I was, I wouldn't buy anything that couldn't do 4k. Not because I need it today, but because I need a camera (system) to last me 4 years or so to be finacially viable.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

pablo said:


> Dr Brain, do you have any data to back up anything other than the fanboi reciepts you accumulate?



I make claims based on factual, verifiable data. When someone states that, "The 5D (III)...is dead in the water," as far as video use goes, I'd hope they could back that up with something other than their own opinion. For >4 years, CR forum posters (and elsewhere) have claimed Canon is '*******', 'dead in the water', etc., because other manufacturers offer sensors with more low ISO DR. The *facts* show the exact opposite...Canon continues to sell more dSLRs than any other manufacturer. 

You want to discuss facts, let's discuss them. You want to spew unsupported statements and BS, well, the Internet is free and no one can stop you from making yourself look foolish...


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

Marketing 1- 0 technology

You disagree that Canon has catching up to do all over the shop?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

pablo said:


> You disagree that Canon has catching up to do all over the shop?



I certainly disagree. For just one example, who has the most advanced image sensor phase detect AF? Does anyone else use every pixel covering ~80% of the sensor area for phase detect AF?


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

Down the list from 36MP, 4k video etc.

Live view AF... grrrrrrrrreat.

Folk serious about video don't want it. But it's great for folk upgrading from ixus compacts to mid-range DSLRs.

You are a blind fanboy my friend.

Ask canon for more. The money you spend they might listen. I suspect they value the monied amateur market above all others.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

pablo said:


> Folk serious about video don't want it. But it's great for folk upgrading from ixus compacts to mid-range DSLRs.



Canon offers DPAF as an upgrade to their Cx00 Cinema EOS cameras. So, either you or Canon know something about 'folk serious about video' that the other doesn't. Who knows more about their market...you or Canon? (In case there's any doubt in your mind, it's not you... : .)


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

Theres no doubt in my mind that if any bbc or itn news or current affairs producer I've worked with in the last 15 years thought a camera op was using AF then they would be off the set. 

But hey, you knows your business. I knows mine.


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

i.e. Canon make some nice kit. But I don't give that much of a damn what their marketing folk think I should be using. I presume they haven't phased out MF switches yet?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

pablo said:


> Theres no doubt in my mind that if any bbc or itn news or current affairs producer I've worked with in the last 15 years thought a camera op was using AF then they would be off the set.



Oh, I see. You're one of those people who believes that anecdotes = data. You should get along quite well with the CR forum DRones.


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

I use the kit I use in real life situations. Day in. Day out. Sneer at the anecdotal accounts of folk who actually use their kit in anger all you want.

5 years ago you were using a rebel. You have a high income that lets you buy fantasy kit. You have time to post a lot on here.

None of that makes you worthy of my estimation. Not that you are seeking it. But really, AF for video..... it really just doesn't work. It honestly doesn't. 

Canon have the best live view on the market.

Thats great.

For my stills stuff or when the budgets tight enough that I use my own DLSR gear for video I'll reflect on that.

Canon have the best live view af on the market...

.














.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

Not that long ago, relatively speaking, editors sneered at any photographer who chose digital over film. Everyone knew digital was no where near good enough to match film. Reflect on where those editors are today. 

Times change, but it's ok if you don't change with them.


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

what has this to do with film? I've shot on vidicon tubes, ccd, s16, s35, had, super had, hyper had, fit, cmos?... shallow analogy...

have you ever shot any video for broadcast or commercial use?

a wavy hand subject interview?

a dramatic scene with traffic in the foreground?

you don't know what you are talking about John.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

pablo said:


> you don't know what you are talking about John.



Hmmm...let's look at what I'm saying:

You're a person who shoots video. You say there's no point in AF for video shooting. 

Canon is a multibillion dollar corporation that likely spends far more on market research in a couple of days than many video professionals earn in a year. Canon offers DPAF on their professional Cx00 video cameras. 

You're welcome to your opinion. Canon obviously disagrees with you. We know who you believe, we know who I believe. 

'Nuff said.


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

John, you don't know what you are talking about.

Honestly mate.


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

answer me this John: why don't canons cine lenses have af? why dont canons broadcast eng & 2/3rds lemses have Af?


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

you were a bit slow coming back, so here's the answer...

Because canon do indeed know their market. 

The c cameras are low end. I'm not knocking them, great images, nice to use, everything you'd reasonably want apart from back focus adjust and reasobably priced servo zoom...

But they have to appeal to untrained single users, smaller production houses, so things that any trained professional would never use, like say AWB, like say, AF, like an automatic shutter speed mode (noooooooooooooooo!) crop up, because, feasibly some rich kids might fancy themselves as a dop (haha, Nobody wants to be a cameraman anymore, all these DOPs kicking around pmsl) so if these muppets add to the units sold and loser the cost for the adults then great, but John, you don't shoot serious video, or you'd know. You might have the nicest toys, but your still new to the party.

Maybe you'll use video af and stRt calling yourself a dop... why not, it's this years trick.


----------



## Sporgon (Aug 23, 2014)

@pablo,

I don't really see when you're coming from with this issue of AF video on the dslrs. Surely the vast, vast majority of these cameras are sold to the casual video user, and they want AF, preferably AF that actually works. Many have found that for 'home movies' the dslr is wholly inferior to a handycam; the DPAF goes some way to helping with this. In fact I would say it has been welcomed by the buying public. The development of the video function as part of a dslr is of no relevance to the likes of BBC or ITN surely ?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

Pablo's arguing that AF has no relevance for video, because he thinks that makes DPAF irrelevant, allowing him to conveniently ignore an area where Canon is more technologically advanced than other camera makers. It's his contention that Canon is behind in everything:



pablo said:


> You disagree that Canon has catching up to do all over the shop?



Of course, their dedicated phase detect AF is also the best in the industry, and if true the rumored 65-pt all cross-type AF combined with iTR in the 7DII/X is putting Canon even further ahead on PDAF. But maybe he thinks that has no relevance to still photography.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

Oh, and generally speaking Canon has better lenses, and more unique lens offerings. They are the only dSLR manufacturer with a radio-controlled flash system. Anyone else have a FF body that shoots 12 fps with AF between each frame? 

It baffles me that people take one area in which Canon lags behind – DR at low ISO – and somehow decide that means Canon is behind across the board, doesn't innovate, and other DRivel of that sort.


----------



## Ruined (Aug 23, 2014)

pablo said:


> you were a bit slow coming back, so here's the answer...
> 
> Because canon do indeed know their market.
> 
> ...



Hi Pablo,
I just noticed your posts and since you are on expert on pro video needs, can you (quickly) please explain why:

1. Why is the ~$50,000 C-Motion Lens Control System kit marketed with one of its primary features being enabling wireless autofocus of video lenses? Do you consider a $50,000 professional lens control product "low end"? Why did this list of Hollywood motion pictures use this system, were the crews not "pro enough" for you? - https://www.cmotion.eu/cms/page/cp/6/testimonials 

2. Why RED's newer $20,000+ cameras include autofocus?

3. When a camera is situated in an area that will likely have dangerous debris/shrapnel entering the area where the camera is located due to getting a unique perspective on a special effects explosion or the like, would you put a cameraman in harms way just so you can feel "more pro"?


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

Sporgon said:


> @pablo,
> 
> I don't really see when you're coming from with this issue of AF video on the dslrs. Surely the vast, vast majority of these cameras are sold to the casual video user, and they want AF, preferably AF that actually works. Many have found that for 'home movies' the dslr is wholly inferior to a handycam; the DPAF goes some way to helping with this. In fact I would say it has been welcomed by the buying public. The development of the video function as part of a dslr is of no relevance to the likes of BBC or ITN surely ?



correct. the contention being that neuros industry keading feature is a consumer feature. Nuero said canon know their market. you've reinforced both our points.


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Pablo's arguing that AF has no relevance for video, because he thinks that makes DPAF irrelevant, allowing him to conveniently ignore an area where Canon is more technologically advanced than other camera makers. It's his contention that Canon is behind in everything:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



if you want the best af stills performance, you will still use the ovf for now.

one swallow does not a summer make. you don't look at something like an a7 and think canon are missing a trick somewhere? it's an open question, maybe you don't, thats fine, but Neuro is a bully, I pioed up because he slapped somebody down for a turn of phrase that didn't favour canon, his personal deity.

He has some nice kit, but tats as far as I woukd go, it doesnt earn him my respect or. the right to be so arrigant and bullish. It's a see taste back to him. i don't really care all that much.


----------



## pablo (Aug 23, 2014)

Ruined said:


> Hi Pablo,
> I just noticed your posts and since you are on expert on pro video needs, can you (quickly) please explain why:
> 
> 1. Why is the ~$50,000 C-Motion Lens Control System kit marketed with one of its primary features being enabling wireless autofocus of video lenses? Do you consider a $50,000 professional lens control product "low end"? Why did this list of Hollywood motion pictures use this system, were the crews not "pro enough" for you? - https://www.cmotion.eu/cms/page/cp/6/testimonials
> ...



1) Wireless autofocus? because you want to not control focus without wires getting in the way?

is it perhaps more accurately described as manual focus operated remotely? if you have a moving subject ir moving camera, or anything between your subject and the camera af is going to goof up. 

2) When red ship cameras on time that work reliably consistently I'll pay more attention to what they do. for now they are not on my radar. sorry.

3) no. i would use a video downlink and remote controlled manual kens operations. In an eos context this can be as simple as laptop tethering and using eos utility. or use a wide angle and zone focusing. or a gopro with a fixed focus lens.


----------



## wtlloyd (Aug 23, 2014)

Oh, brother! : : :




pablo said:


> 2) When red ship cameras on time that work reliably consistently I'll pay more attention to what they do. for now they are not on my radar. sorry.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

@Ruined & wtlloyd – the professional video gear mentioned is clearly amateurish in nature, and not nearly professional enough for a really professional pro. 




pablo said:


> if you want the best af stills performance, you will still use the ovf for now.



Then please explain how Canon has 'catching up to do' in that area of the shop. Or any of the other areas I mentioned where Canon is the industry leader. I brought up DPAF as just one example of many to counter your asinine assertion that Canon is behind everywhere. 




pablo said:


> one swallow does not a summer make. you don't look at something like an a7 and think canon are missing a trick somewhere? it's an open question, maybe you don't, thats fine, but Neuro is a bully, I pioed up because he slapped somebody down for a turn of phrase that didn't favour canon, his personal deity.



Mirrorless accounts for ~10% of camera sales worldwide. Sony a7 sales represent a small fraction of that small fraction. How much of a trick do you think Canon is missing? 

Good job tossing a few insults my way, feel free to toss a few more if that helps you feel more manly or whatever.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Aug 23, 2014)

Ruined & Pablo

Civality gentlemen please!. 

Red have AF because professional stills photographers use their cameras as well as moviemakers, many are shooting small video clips as well as stills for online catalogues etc. 

EVERY SINGLE movie takes a wireless lens control system and most TV dramas and most commercials typically Arri or Preston although CMotion is used in Germany & North America. Auto Focus systems do exist but are virtually never used the main reason for that is two fold a. Actors move between marks and b. you may want to do splits French crews are renown for doing split tests to see if lenses are forward or back focus at given distances & stops often its done on a harp test. 
Many shots are done on dollies and cranes and with smaller cameras its simply not possible to use a follow-focus most of the time hence a lens control system these can be both hard-wired and wireless and cover zoom, focus & iris. 

If shots are soft trust me the focus puller takes the wrap and for that reason most dont trust AF if your using Zeiss Master Primes at T2 or faster youve got zero depth of field and regardless of the low light sensitivity of most digital film camera DOPs shoot wide open or near too often. Most of the testing time is spent marking rings to each lens and checking them on camera. 

A point missed in this discussion is a full frame Canon 5d MKIII will have less apparent depth of field than say a movie camera or the 7d for a given focal lenght & aperture thats why in Super 16 or in 2/3rds everything appeared sharp and fast lenses was the only way to get creative control so comparing movie tools to the 5d MKIII is slightly a red herring unless your comparing 65 / 70mm or Vistavision.


----------



## Ruined (Aug 23, 2014)

pablo said:


> Ruined said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Pablo,
> ...



1) The C-Motion can enable both wireless autofocus controls and it can also enable wireless manual focus controls. Such as when you want to operate a camera from 50ft away, the C-Motion system can make either of these control modes happen. There are more parameters to control in an advanced video autofocus system than just "autofocus on," and further this system with a full kit is designed to allow manual lenses to work as an autofocus lens:
https://www.cmotion.eu/shop/detail/cat/19/product/14/cfinder%20II
https://www.cmotion.eu/shop/detail/cat/20/product/12/SET%20cdisplay%20II%20+%20cdisplay%20II.ext
https://www.cmotion.eu/shop/detail/cat/6/product/2882/C1-Set%20%20Advanced%20with%20camin%203M%20and%20cworld

Note how enabling autofocus is mentioned throughout the product materials for this $50,000+ lens control system. Why would the company market this feature to professionals if it was not applicable to them?

2) Red is one of the largest players in digital video cameras right now, so your response is not applicable to the general pro market or the argument at hand.

3) This is another option, but the wireless video link and control scenario will introduce much more lag than simply enabling autofocus on the camera. Thus, you may actually get lower quality results using your much more complex setup due to lag than you would have simply using video autofocus. Therefore, if the camera's autofocus system is robust enough for the scene, it may be the superior tool for the job due to reduced lag and hence potentially higher quality results.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Aug 23, 2014)

Pablo

Suggest by the way you take a look at the films that have shot with Red cameras including films by the biggest DOPs in the industry the images from the Epic (5K) and Dragon (6K) are both right up there such as seen on Prometheus. The Dragon is currently on some pretty big films that will release in 2015 if the big studios thought they represented any kind of risk they certainly would not be using them. Sure the Arri Alexa is the current king of the professional cinematography industry (its 2K) and the two could not be more different. 
The Canon C500 or C300 is not the camera of choice for Hollywood most are used for TV with maybe action shots or where the camera is at risk shots being done by Canon C500/C300s and Black Magic cameras. The main reason for this is ergonomics and ease of use the Japanese seems to swamp their cameras with too many switches & knobs when in reality many changes can be performed in post.


----------

