# Canon EOS 90D and Canon EOS M6 Mark II announcements coming at the end of August



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 8, 2019)

> We’ve been reporting for quite some time that the Canon EOS 90D and Canon EOS M6 Mark II would be announced on or around August 28, 2019. Nokishita further confirms these reports.
> This is the full list of products being announced at the end of August including the official announcements for two new RF mount lenses.
> 
> *Canon EOS 90D*
> ...



Continue reading...


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## LSXPhotog (Aug 8, 2019)

So what does this mean for the M5 Mark II? I personally don't really want the M6 because I like having a built-in viewfinder.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 8, 2019)

LSXPhotog said:


> So what does this mean for the M5 Mark II? I personally don't really want the M6 because I like having a built-in viewfinder.



I'm not too sure.


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## Bahrd (Aug 8, 2019)

LSXPhotog said:


> So what does this mean for the M5 Mark II? I personally don't really want the M6 because I like having a built-in viewfinder.


Well, it will sport an ECF...


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## Trey T (Aug 8, 2019)

I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.


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## caffetin (Aug 8, 2019)

m6 II,do you think it will be good for macro photo.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 8, 2019)

caffetin said:


> m6 II,do you think it will be good for macro photo.



With a macro lens attached... yes.


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## caffetin (Aug 8, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> With a macro lens attached... yes.


ef mount?


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## Kit. (Aug 8, 2019)

Trey T said:


> I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.


I would very suspicious of any camera created "immediately".

On the other hand, it would not surprise me if M6 II were _the_ mirrorless equivalent of 90D.


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## canonical (Aug 8, 2019)

caffetin said:


> ef mount?



EF-M 28/3.5 is a native macro lens with built-in ring light, very compact, good IQ, well affordable.
Otherwise EF-S 60/2.8 is a great macro lens with nice FL [FOV eq. to 96mm], works well on my EOS M with EF/EF-M adapter and is still acceptably compact. 
And all EF 100mm/2.8 Macro lenses will also work via adapter. 100L is an excellent macro lens.


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## canonical (Aug 8, 2019)

Kit. said:


> I would very suspicious of any camera created "immediately".
> 
> On the other hand, it would not surprise me if M6 II were _the_ mirrorless equivalent of 90D.



nope. no viewfinder. What "we" (some of us) are waiting for is a KILLER EOS M5 II, every bit as good as a (not coming) EOS 7D III should have been. But priced at 999. ;-)


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## amorse (Aug 8, 2019)

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing where they position the 90D and M6II. I'm betting that this will be the indicator for where Canon plans to head with several lines.


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## neo302 (Aug 8, 2019)

90D better have clean HDMI out


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## privatebydesign (Aug 8, 2019)

neo302 said:


> 90D better have clean HDMI out


Or what?


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## canonical (Aug 8, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Or what?



or Canon is *******. for sure!


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## Adelino (Aug 8, 2019)

Trey T said:


> I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.


A major flop just gives Canon LESS incentive to produce ANY camera.


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## Danglin52 (Aug 8, 2019)

It will be interesting to see what Canon delivers in this round and the next R series. I have stayed with Canon because of reliability, incredible lenses, and support (CPS). Basically, the entire eco-system rather than just one component. I do believe that Canon has fallen behind the times with bodies and would like to have advantages like faster frame rates, accurate Eye tracking for both humans / animals, high resolution / fast refresh EVF, improved sensors and other technologies that have been implemented. I was really hoping for an M5 II that would clean up all of the things I don't like about the original M5 - mainly performance and AF. I am not sure I would give up my 1dx II and big lenses, but the X-T3 is calling me as a higher end replacement for the M5. Yes, I know they are not considered in the same class for comparison, but I like the performance and portability of the X-T3. I would have already purchased a A9 or similar with adapted lenses if AF performance for wildlife was not an issue. To the answer of the "or what" post above, you vote with your dollars.


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## codynpatterson (Aug 8, 2019)

Kit. said:


> I would very suspicious of any camera created "immediately".
> 
> On the other hand, it would not surprise me if M6 II were _the_ mirrorless equivalent of 90D.


Let's restate that, RF mirrorless equivalent immediately. Lol. M mount isn't a long term solution. One mount for both is.


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## djack41 (Aug 8, 2019)

Kit. said:


> I would very suspicious of any camera created "immediately".
> 
> On the other hand, it would not surprise me if M6 II were _the_ mirrorless equivalent of 90D.


"Focus" is not the same as "create".


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## amorse (Aug 8, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Or what?


or ELSE!


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## Kit. (Aug 8, 2019)

codynpatterson said:


> Let's restate that, RF mirrorless equivalent immediately.


Not feasible. RF "equivalent" of 90D would cost 1.5x-2x as much, not including the difference in the lens costs. If 90D were a flop, its RF "equivalent" would be too.



djack41 said:


> "Focus" is not the same as "create".


Where did you find that "focus"?


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## amorse (Aug 8, 2019)

Trey T said:


> I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.


I don't know, if they mess up the 90D after so much time in development, the last thing I want them to do is smash out a mirrorless version as quickly as possible. Rushing rarely results in great products, but often results in monumental failures.


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## EduPortas (Aug 8, 2019)

Bleh. If they can mass market a FF camera at US $1300 (EOS RP) they sure as hell can make a decent 7D Mark III.

I'll stick with my 7DM2 for as long as I can.

This forum has documented lots of you guys are still using the _original_ 7D every day, either for work or pleasure. My anecdotal experience confirms this.

Stepping down to a 90D does not seem like a wise choice.


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## canonical (Aug 8, 2019)

amorse said:


> I don't know, if they mess up the 90D after so much time in development, the last thing I want them to do is smash out a mirrorless version as quickly as possible. Rushing rarely results in great products, but often results in monumental failures.



If past versions are any indicator, then sensor and DIGIC will likely be same in both M6 II and 90D. And both were certainly NOT rushed, but are due for quite some time now.


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## canonical (Aug 8, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> Stepping down to a 90D does not seem like a wise choice.



why not wait for specs? Moniker on badge is not important. Innards are.


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## neo302 (Aug 8, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Or what?



That will be lame with what many other cameras are offering and I won’t buy it.


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## jjct (Aug 8, 2019)

Is this Canon's big August announcement? What happened to "reclaiming the megapixel crown" and "getting into the spec wars"?


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## Kit. (Aug 8, 2019)

jjct said:


> Is this Canon's big August announcement? What happened to "reclaiming the megapixel crown" and "getting into the spec wars"?


Nothing, of course. Everyone knows that every Canon announcement is the last one.


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## haggie (Aug 8, 2019)

canonical said:


> why not wait for specs?




in reply to 



EduPortas said:


> I'll stick with my 7DM2 for as long as I can.
> ...
> Stepping down to a 90D does not seem like a wise choice.




Why wait for specs, canonical? Do you expect the 90D to match or even surpass the 7D Mk II as an action camera?

You cannot realistically expect that Canon will deliver a camera named *xx*D and priced at around USD 1400.00 to be as good an action camera as a camera from the *x*D-series that had a higher introduction price of around USD1700,00 in 2014? 
If anything, Canon will not do this even if they could! If the 90D would outperform the 7D Mk II it would then Canon would give it a name in the xD series (not in the xxD-series) for the simple reason that these sell at a higher price level. 

And knowing Canon, the 90D will not even match the 7D Mk II in important areas. Don't forget a mirrorless action camera is on the way, no doubt - perhaps even a cropped sensor body. Canon does not want to raise the bar too high for their first step in this area, and therefore alone the 90D will not be comparable to the 7D Mk II.

I have no doubt that the 90D will turn out to be a potent all-rounder and will also have nice performance for action photography (the 80D is not bad either). But in both ergonomics and AF-performance (both of which are essentiel for a top ection camera), the 7D Mk II will certainly not be surpassed.

So EduPortas has a valid point to hold on to his 7D Mk II: the 90D will not be a step up and at this point there is no mirrorless alternative for cropped action photographers.


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## amorse (Aug 8, 2019)

canonical said:


> If past versions are any indicator, then sensor and DIGIC will likely be same in both M6 II and 90D. And both were certainly NOT rushed, but are due for quite some time now.


Oh, I agree. But if it isn't right on these two cameras, I highly doubt a rushed camera body would do better! 

I think the original poster is trying to insinuate that a failure here might wake Canon up to change their course on what they release. I'm not sure that's realistic, but I think we can be confident that Canon takes the time they feel they need on just about everything. Also, I don't believe that we have an accurate view of how much time it takes to go from a concept camera to a released product. If (and that's a big if) the failure of the 90D were to actually result in Canon saying "we need to change our philosophy" I would bet it would be a while before we as consumers saw the fruit of that philosophical change. The closest thing to immediate release could be over a year after a philosophical change.


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## amorse (Aug 8, 2019)

jjct said:


> Is this Canon's big August announcement? What happened to "reclaiming the megapixel crown" and "getting into the spec wars"?


They've had a floating timeline for the high resolution body for quite some time. Some said end of 2019, others said early 2020. As for spec wars, who knows if and when that happens - it's a rumour after all. For all we know that rumour could be based on recent direction from leadership Canon (meaning it will be a while before that filters down into products) rather than sales staff (meaning products are nearly ready to go). Rumours like that are so vague that it's really hard to predict timelines.


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## BillB (Aug 8, 2019)

amorse said:


> They've had a floating timeline for the high resolution body for quite some time. Some said end of 2019, others said early 2020. As for spec wars, who knows if and when that happens - it's a rumour after all. For all we know that rumour could be based on recent direction from leadership Canon (meaning it will be a while before that filters down into products) rather than sales staff (meaning products are nearly ready to go). Rumours like that are so vague that it's really hard to predict timelines.


True enough. On the other hand, the megapixel count on a new aps-c sensor will tell us something about the megapixel count on the new hires camera, but won't tell us much on when it will show up


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## Chaitanya (Aug 8, 2019)

canonical said:


> EF-M 28/3.5 is a native macro lens with built-in ring light, very compact, good IQ, well affordable.
> Otherwise EF-S 60/2.8 is a great macro lens with nice FL [FOV eq. to 96mm], works well on my EOS M with EF/EF-M adapter and is still acceptably compact.
> And all EF 100mm/2.8 Macro lenses will also work via adapter. 100L is an excellent macro lens.


There are tonne of options for EF mount macro lenses going from .5x to 5x mag ratio and in variety of focal lengths from 15mm to 180mm. Its basically pick your poison.


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## victorshikhman (Aug 8, 2019)

Canon is just a master of product segmentation. Of course, they won't launch a 90D and M5ii together - these two models would more directly compete with one another. What were we thinking? So, they'll launch a 90D now, the M6ii - which is targeting the more casual market, a less intimidating step up from a cell-phone - and probably stagger the M5ii release a year from now, using the by then proven 90D sensor, of course, and whatever else they can develop over the next year.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2019)

neo302 said:


> That will be lame with what many other cameras are offering and I won’t buy it.


You should tell Canon that. I’m sure they’ll care.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2019)

Trey T said:


> I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.


Never fear. After the 90D comes out, I’m sure you can find some ‘reviews’ that trash it thoroughly. I’d recommend starting with DPR to provide you with some good confirmation bias.


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## snappy604 (Aug 8, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> Bleh. If they can mass market a FF camera at US $1300 (EOS RP) they sure as hell can make a decent 7D Mark III.
> 
> I'll stick with my 7DM2 for as long as I can.
> 
> ...




I went from original 7d to 80d and it was an improvement.


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## -pekr- (Aug 8, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> I'm not too sure.



Just a wild idea, but - do you think it is possible Canon would merge M5 and M6 lines? Design wise M6 feels being more a "rangefinder" camera and they could just provide it with a pop-up EVF? Most probably not going to happen, as M5 was kind of popular in itself. On the other hand, if there is no 7DIII coming, and just 90D is going to be released, maybe Canon is doing some camera consolidation? Well, maybe M5 II will just come later ...


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## tron (Aug 8, 2019)

Trey T said:


> I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.


The proper response to this sick statement would be:

"I hope the high megapixel Rs would be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a 5DsR Mark II."

But that would make two sick statements, so NO to both statements.


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## dtaylor (Aug 8, 2019)

Trey T said:


> I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.



OK seriously: what is it with the Mirrorless Cult? It's getting to the point where mirrorless shooters are expecting a spaceship to appear in the sky to transport them and their Nikes to a planet with nothing but super model filled national parks, leaving the heathen mirror slappers behind. And of course if that UFO isn't filled with Canon mirrorless cameras then *CANON. IS. *******.

DSLRs still out sell mirrorless cameras, and do so by wide margins in north America and Europe.* There is still a large market of people who want the DSLR form factor and an OVF. Yes, yes, sooner or later those sales will cross over. And guess what? Even then, for years, there will still be a market for DSLRs. Mirrorless is not a paradigm shift, and quite frankly it still, after a decade of being developed and pushed, still has some cons vs SLRs. We can nitpick the small differences between the two designs, but honestly if you can't get the shot with a 7D mark II or a 90D...you're probably not going to get it with mirrorless either.

The entire ILC market is experiencing severe contraction as people rely more and more on phones. And let's face it, there's also a bit of consumer exhaustion with all the photos out there. Hoping for the 90D to flop is the same as hoping you have a smaller market with fewer options, from Canon or any manufacturer, in the future.


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## 12Broncos (Aug 8, 2019)




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## dtaylor (Aug 8, 2019)

haggie said:


> You cannot realistically expect that Canon will deliver a camera named *xx*D and priced at around USD 1400.00 to be as good an action camera as a camera from the *x*D-series that had a higher introduction price of around USD1700,00 in 2014?



Isn't Canon famous for releasing *5*D cameras that turned out to be equal/better landscape/studio cameras than the *1*D bodies, and at cheaper prices?


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## dtaylor (Aug 8, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Never fear. After the 90D comes out, I’m sure you can find some ‘reviews’ that trash it thoroughly. I’d recommend starting with DPR to provide you with some good confirmation bias.



I've seriously wondered what metric DPR would push if Canon were to introduce a generation of sensors with higher DR than Sony. _We have to admit that this new Canon quad-pixel architecture delivers 20 stops DR vs Sony's 15, but have you seen the DxO color depth score? Sony is still 0.2 bits ahead at base ISO. We're not sure you're going to want a Canon with poor color bit depth like that.  _


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## tron (Aug 8, 2019)

For my needs I would ask the following 7DII capabilities (that do not exist on 80D) to be transferred to 90D as I find them very useful for birding:

The same number and kind of programmable buttons
Spot-AF
(At least) The same AF coverage.


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## tron (Aug 8, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> I've seriously wondered what metric DPR would push if Canon were to introduce a generation of sensors with higher DR than Sony. _We have to admit that this new Canon quad-pixel architecture delivers 20 stops DR vs Sony's 15, but have you seen the DxO color depth score? Sony is still 0.2 bits ahead at base ISO. We're not sure you're going to want a Canon with poor color bit depth like that. _


Well the only metric DPR will not use for obvious reasons is Canon's success!


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## Jasonmc89 (Aug 8, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> Bleh. If they can mass market a FF camera at US $1300 (EOS RP) they sure as hell can make a decent 7D Mark III.
> 
> I'll stick with my 7DM2 for as long as I can.
> 
> ...



What makes you think it’s a step down?


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## Jasonmc89 (Aug 8, 2019)

jjct said:


> Is this Canon's big August announcement? What happened to "reclaiming the megapixel crown" and "getting into the spec wars"?




That’s a completely different model...


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## Reflex (Aug 8, 2019)

The main spec I'm looking forward for the 90d is the FPS number, because if 10 FPS or above are confirmed, we can assume 3 things :
- that it will have a nice and fast AF, probably as fast as 7d2 
- the return of the joystick in a xxD body
- AF sensitivity set ups

That would make sense

If lower than 10, then complete different story... Can't wait to know the exact FPS number.


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## Canon1966 (Aug 8, 2019)

I would love a Canon camera with Sony specs...


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## Eersel (Aug 8, 2019)

The 90D needs to be an absolute beast.

No exceptions.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Aug 8, 2019)

Kit. said:


> I would very suspicious of any camera created "immediately".
> 
> On the other hand, it would not surprise me if M6 II were _the_ mirrorless equivalent of 90D.


I doubt it, i bet it would be the M5 mark ll


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## MiJax (Aug 8, 2019)

Its hard to see a direction with Canon's lineup strategy, it just seems so disjointed. Hopefully this isn't very accurate.


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## tron (Aug 8, 2019)

Reflex said:


> The main spec I'm looking forward for the 90d is the FPS number, because if 10 FPS or above are confirmed, we can assume 3 things :
> - that it will have a nice and fast AF, probably as fast as 7d2
> - the return of the joystick in a xxD body
> - AF sensitivity set ups
> ...


Yes the joystick is very important. I have forgotten to mention it. Rumors have mentioned 10fps so I took it for granted.


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## canonical (Aug 8, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Just a wild idea, but - do you think it is possible Canon would merge M5 and M6 lines? Design wise M6 feels being more a "rangefinder" camera and they could just provide it with a pop-up EVF?



that was my hope as well - capable M5 in M6 form factor, but with built-in pop-up EVF. Does not look like it though. CR rumor says "EVF kit available" - I take this to mean an external, optional EVF. EVF-DC1 or 2 ... or a new one has to be purchased ... maybe with higher res and/or (even) less lag.


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## canonical (Aug 8, 2019)

MiJax said:


> Its hard to see a direction with Canon's lineup strategy, it just seems so disjointed. Hopefully this isn't very accurate.



it is very clear to see. Moving towards 2 mirrorfree product lines: EOS M (APS-C) and EOS R (FF). During transition a few breadcrumbs towards dying DSLR lines. A "rebel kiss Joey" here, a 90D there, a 1Dx III to cap it off and call it a day.


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## -pekr- (Aug 8, 2019)

canonical said:


> that was my hope as well - capable M5 in M6 form factor, but with built-in pop-up EVF. Does not look like it though. CR rumor says "EVF kit available" - I take this to mean an external, optional EVF. EVF-DC1 or 2 ... or a new one has to be purchased ... maybe with higher res and/or (even) less lag.



Noticed the mention of external EVF. Was just hoping for an eventual pop-up form (even if it would not mean M5/M6 line merge). The reason is my schizophrenia towards the studio gear. External EVF means no hot-shoe available. But well, I would still prefer M6 to M5 design wise, even if I would be supposed to use only a back LCD, when doing occassional strobe lightning. Pop-up EVF would be nice though. The question is, if it can be of identical quality/size to eventual external one ....


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2019)

canonical said:


> it is very clear to see. Moving towards 2 mirrorfree product lines: EOS M (APS-C) and EOS R (FF). During transition a few breadcrumbs towards dying DSLR lines. A "rebel kiss Joey" here, a 90D there, a 1Dx III to cap it off and call it a day.


Do please let us know when the EOS M line starts outselling the ‘rebel kiss Joey’ line, will you? That hasn’t happened yet, even in Japan where MILCs are most popular. But keep on saying it, as you’ve been doing for years now. Someday maybe you’ll be right!


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## privatebydesign (Aug 8, 2019)

neo302 said:


> That will be lame with what many other cameras are offering and I won’t buy it.


So what?


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## trounds (Aug 8, 2019)

Can't wait to see final specs on both 90D and M6-mk2. 
I plan to purchase both!!!  (Although, no plans on getting rid of my 7d-mk2 anytime soon)


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## navastronia (Aug 8, 2019)

Canon is treading water until the high MP and pro RF bodies are ready. These other 2 will sell, but they aren’t going to set the world on fire, so it would be wise to temper expectations. Those hoping the 90D will perform like a 7DIII are going to be bummed, I think.


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## gsealy (Aug 8, 2019)

I am very near to pulling the trigger on a Fuji X-T3, which is one heck of a camera that sells for about $1500. But I am going to give Canon a chance with the 90D. So I will be looking at the specs and reviews with a lot of interest.


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## Durf (Aug 8, 2019)

Many that will buy the 90D in my opinion will likely be those already shooting on the 80D, 70D, Rebel camera's etc. If the 90D is spec'd out better than the 80D, which it highly likely will be, means this 90D will probably be a big success. I think the 80D is one of Canon's all time best APS-C DSLR Camera's ever made....soon to be 2nd best to the 90D.
Of course the 90D will be bashed and complained about by the normal crowd of negatives but I bet those that actually get it and put it to use longer than a week or two (more-so than youtube reviewers) they will love it.
The 90D will only be a compromise to those looking for a 7Dii replacement....I was waiting for the 7Diii, but I suppose the 90D will eventually be what I replace my 80D with. (Mirror-less is not in "my" future for photography).


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## tron (Aug 8, 2019)

I hope that half or one year after 90D Canon introduces 7DIII just like they introduced 7DII a year after 70D.

One can only hope...


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## Ale_F (Aug 8, 2019)

No mention of the megic things: dual slot and IBIS.
In some market it's important to have a 2019 model. No specs useful , but the 2019 model.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 8, 2019)

snappy604 said:


> I went from original 7d to 80d and it was an improvement.



Unless you mainly shoot non-action/non-wildlife at ISO 400 and lower, the 80D was not nearly as big an improvement over the 7D as the 7D Mark II was.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2019)

Ale_F said:


> No mention of the megic things: dual slot and IBIS.
> In some market it's important to have a 2019 model. No specs useful , but the 2019 model.


Yeah, Canon is always releasng the two-year old model. For some reason, the majority of camera buyers like it that way, which is why Canon dominates the ILC market, as they’ve done for >16 years. 

That was your point, wasn’t it?


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## flip314 (Aug 8, 2019)

Durf said:


> Many that will buy the 90D in my opinion will likely be those already shooting on the 80D, 70D, Rebel camera's etc. If the 90D is spec'd out better than the 80D, which it highly likely will be, means this 90D will probably be a big success. I think the 80D is one of Canon's all time best APS-C DSLR Camera's ever made....soon to be 2nd best to the 90D.
> Of course the 90D will be bashed and complained about by the normal crowd of negatives but I bet those that actually get it and put it to use longer than a week or two (more-so than youtube reviewers) they will love it.
> The 90D will only be a compromise to those looking for a 7Dii replacement....I was waiting for the 7Diii, but I suppose the 90D will eventually be what I replace my 80D with. (Mirror-less is not in "my" future for photography).



As someone who loves my 80D, I'm not expecting the 90D to be a significant upgrade. They might at 4K video or something like that, but I'm not even sure what I'd ask for as an improvement, honestly.

I myself am more likely to grab the RP and keep the 80D as a second body... Though eventually I'd like to end up with the RP + some better EOS R camera, so we'll see what order I end up upgrading in... Luckily I'm not in a rush and can wait to see what comes out, especially since I'm waiting for the RF 24-70 f2.8 IS... For me that's the killer lens that will draw me into the R ecosystem.


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## snappy604 (Aug 8, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Unless you mainly shoot non-action/non-wildlife at ISO 400 and lower, the 80D was not nearly as big an improvement over the 7D as the 7D Mark II was.



I'm not a dedicated wildlife photog, but I do take quite a bit of wildlife pics.

For me the 7D mk2 felt like a minor improvement over the 7D at a highish (at the time) cost. The image quality/dynamic range/low light performance, focus points, tilty screen, etc were noticeable improvements on the 80D from the 7D. ..

The burst rate and weather sealing were probably my main concerns.. but found it was fast enough for most things for me and I was more careful in bad weather. I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but the other capabilities more than made it better than an original 7D (which is what was being said)... probably less so for a 7D mk2.


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## wsmith96 (Aug 8, 2019)

Wonder what the odds are that canon would release the M6 with an R mount and make an adapter to support Ef-m lenses. That would make a nice tie in to get a common mount across the board. Just a thought.


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## masterpix (Aug 8, 2019)

Trey T said:


> I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.


I wonder why anyone wish others to fail? As you know, Canon is commited to their R line and develop a growing line of RF lenses. So why "wish" that the DSLR will be a "flopp"? By the way, anger attitude generate wrinkls on people face if you haven't noticed that already.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 8, 2019)

wsmith96 said:


> Wonder what the odds are that canon would release the M6 with an R mount and make an adapter to support Ef-m lenses. That would make a nice tie in to get a common mount across the board. Just a thought.


Zero.


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## TrubadorPhotography (Aug 8, 2019)

I've been following CR for quite sometime, but only now joined the forum.

As someone who got into the DSLR realm only 5-½ years ago with my current Rebel T3i and a handful of basic lenses, I have been anxiously waiting for this 80D/7D replacement model for over a year.

I would consider myself an advanced amateur, and am wanting to take the next logical step up. I'm not quite at the level of needing to go deep into the 5D/6D FF world (financial-wise and otherwise). And, IMHO, the mirrorless industry is still in its infancy.

Getting a top-of-the-line crop sensor DSLR, plus getting a few more new/better EF lenses (I already bought my first L lens secondhand - the 70-200 F/2.8 for half the price), including the Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 (to step up from my Nifty-50), Tamron 18-400mm F/3.5-6.3, plus a decent macro lens and a decent wide-angle lens for landscape photography.

I figure that if my abilities over the next 5 years take the next logical step (in becoming a part-time professional), it is then that I'll move up to a FF, with mirrorless technology being much more mature by then. I could imagine an well-tested "R-5D" with an EF adapter as being my next step up in 2024.

So, for me, this "90D" will work perfectly for me. Been chomping at the bit for many months now.


----------



## Jethro (Aug 8, 2019)

navastronia said:


> Canon is treading water until the high MP and pro RF bodies are ready. These other 2 will sell, but they aren’t going to set the world on fire, so it would be wise to temper expectations. Those hoping the 90D will perform like a 7DIII are going to be bummed, I think.


Probably best to wait and see the actual specs first? If these include new sensor technology (and this is probable if the 90D is intended to take over the 7D series' position) then it points to where the new EOS R cameras are going, ie the sensor is likely to be a cut down version of the same or similar sensor for use on a high MP / pro EOS R camera. Same for the M6ii. That's the exciting prospect with these for non-APSC users.


----------



## Jethro (Aug 8, 2019)

TrubadorPhotography said:


> I've been following CR for quite sometime, but only now joined the forum.
> 
> As someone who got into the DSLR realm only 5-½ years ago with my current Rebel T3i and a handful of basic lenses, I have been anxiously waiting for this 80D/7D replacement model for over a year.
> 
> ...


Have you thought about the EOS RP? EF lenses work great on it and the EOS R with the adaptor. You're absolutely in the middle of the demographic that Canon wants to encourage into FF mirrorless, hence the pricing on the EOS RP (and the cut-down 5Diii which is the EOS R for those with a bit more money to spend).


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Aug 8, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Unless you mainly shoot non-action/non-wildlife at ISO 400 and lower, the 80D was not nearly as big an improvement over the 7D as the 7D Mark II was.



I’m not so sure.. I chose the 80D over the 7D2 and I’m glad I did. I may get ever so slightly fewer sharp images, but I can crop more and I can push shadows more. Which is a big deal in wildlife shooting.


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## mpb001 (Aug 9, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> Bleh. If they can mass market a FF camera at US $1300 (EOS RP) they sure as hell can make a decent 7D Mark III.
> 
> I'll stick with my 7DM2 for as long as I can.
> 
> ...


----------



## Aussie shooter (Aug 9, 2019)

jjct said:


> Is this Canon's big August announcement? What happened to "reclaiming the megapixel crown" and "getting into the spec wars"?


The 90d and m62 are going to have a 32.5mp 1.6x crop sensor. If that is not winning the mp war or engaging in a spec war i don't know what is.


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## mpb001 (Aug 9, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> Bleh. If they can mass market a FF camera at US $1300 (EOS RP) they sure as hell can make a decent 7D Mark III.
> 
> I'll stick with my 7DM2 for as long as I can.
> 
> ...


How do you know using a 90D would be a step down without knowing the true specs yet? My hunch is it will have much better DR than a 7D as well as other improved features, especially if Canon is considering making the 90D an amalgamation of an 80D and 7DII.


----------



## djack41 (Aug 9, 2019)

I hope the camera can equal the performance of the excellent Nikon D500. The venerable 7D2 simply fell behind. The AF needs an big upgrade. The rumor suggest a lot of MPs, so hope the buffer is adequate. And Canon, please remove the AA filter!


----------



## Woody (Aug 9, 2019)

So, we won't be seeing an update to the M5? Sigh.


----------



## styoda (Aug 9, 2019)

Trey T said:


> I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.



There is a mirrorless version, It's called the Canon EOS M6 Mark II


----------



## Aussie shooter (Aug 9, 2019)

mpb001 said:


> How do you know using a 90D would be a step down without knowing the true specs yet? My hunch is it will have much better DR than a 7D as well as other improved features, especially if Canon is considering making the 90D an amalgamation of an 80D and 7DII.


As we keep telling the sony tribe, there is far more to a camera than DR. I am sure the 90d will be a good camera but in a lot of areas(what many of us consider the most important areas) it will likely be a step down. Things like build quality and robustness do not come cheap


----------



## wsmith96 (Aug 9, 2019)

Woody said:


> So, we won't be seeing an update to the M5? Sigh.


Maybe not this round


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 9, 2019)

Two questions 
1. Are these two going to have the same sensor?
2. If they are, is it the new sensor tech that's rumoured for the next high-mp R body?


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## wsmith96 (Aug 9, 2019)

tron said:


> I hope that half or one year after 90D Canon introduces 7DIII just like they introduced 7DII a year after 70D.
> 
> One can only hope...


They probably will, it’ll just be mirrorless


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## Durf (Aug 9, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> I’m not so sure.. I chose the 80D over the 7D2 and I’m glad I did. I may get ever so slightly fewer sharp images, but I can crop more and I can push shadows more. Which is a big deal in wildlife shooting.



I got the 80D when it first came out over the 7D2 also, mainly for the flip and touch screen. I use it for wildlife photography and it actually does quite well. I've got some rather amazing images with it using the Canon 70-300L and Sigma 150-600. It's a VERY capable wildlife camera. I'm very seldom out in nasty rainy weather so it not being full weather sealed is not an issue for me.
If the 90D is weather sealed and shoots 10fps or better, I can see several 7D2 shooters going for it.


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## drd79 (Aug 9, 2019)

Who cares? EF-M is dead, and EF is not too far behind. If they made cameras that weren't 5 years outdated the day they were released, maybe they wouldn't be hemorrhaging customers at an astonishing rate. Just food for thought...


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## jvillain (Aug 9, 2019)

drd79 said:


> Who cares? EF-M is dead, and EF is not too far behind. If they made cameras that weren't 5 years outdated the day they were released, maybe they wouldn't be hemorrhaging customers at an astonishing rate. Just food for thought...


Black Magic just announced their 6K pocket cinema camera with EF mount for $2500 USD. I bought my R back when people were still believing that it actually shot 4K. In fact that was the primary reason I had bought it. That will do as my stills shooter and my 80D as my back up stills shooter for the next 10 years. But with the new BM announcement I am no longer waiting for Canon to finally release a hybrid camera capable of 4K. I have very likely bought my last Canon camera.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 9, 2019)

jvillain said:


> Black Magic just announced their 6K pocket cinema camera with EF mount for $2500 USD. I bought my R back when people were still believing that it actually shot 4K. In fact that was the primary reason I had bought it. That will do as my stills shooter and my 80D as my back up stills shooter for the next 10 years. But with the new BM announcement I am no longer waiting for Canon to finally release a hybrid camera capable of 4K. I have very likely bought my last Canon camera.


I’m not a video guy so I’ve never really paid attention. Does the EOS-R’s much maligned crop in 4k use a smaller portion of its sensor than a non-cropped S35 sensor?


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 9, 2019)

drd79 said:


> Who cares? EF-M is dead, and EF is not too far behind. If they made cameras that weren't 5 years outdated the day they were released, maybe they wouldn't be hemorrhaging customers at an astonishing rate. Just food for thought...


Sorry, but your thoughts seem to have succumbed to starvation on the ‘food’ you provide. Canon’s ILC market share 10 years ago was ~44%, 5 years ago it was ~47%, and currently it’s ~49%. In case you don’t understand numbers, that means Canon is gaining net customers, not losing them. 

Thanks for sharing yet another opinion from someone who fails to grasp reality.


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## mpb001 (Aug 9, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> As we keep telling the sony tribe, there is far more to a camera than DR. I am sure the 90d will be a good camera but in a lot of areas(what many of us consider the most important areas) it will likely be a step down. Things like build quality and robustness do not come cheap


I am a Canon user 5DIV and a Rebel SL1. Both very different grades of cameras. I used the SL1 for a trip to Europe and shot with it in drizzle one day and it never had a problem. From what I read the forthcoming 90D will have weather seals. My hunch is it will be a more robust build than previous models in that series, especially if there will not be another 7D upgrade. Just my two cents.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon’s ILC market share 10 years ago was ~44%, 5 years ago it was ~47%, and currently it’s ~49%. In case you don’t understand numbers, that means Canon is gaining net customers, not losing them.



... It could mean they’re losing fewer customers.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 9, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> ... It could mean they’re losing fewer customers.


Absolutely true!


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## canonical (Aug 9, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sorry, but your thoughts seem to have succumbed to starvation on the ‘food’ you provide. Canon’s ILC market share 10 years ago was ~44%, 5 years ago it was ~47%, and currently it’s ~49%. In case you don’t understand numbers, that means Canon is gaining net customers, not losing them.
> Thanks for sharing yet another opinion from someone who fails to grasp reality.



nope. It does not mean they are "gaining net customers". market share is about revenue, not about number of customers. Does not matter whether their revenue is achieved with 1 customer or with a million. Canon's had less (imaging) revenue each year for the last 5 years, they just managed to lose less than total erall market was shrinking.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 9, 2019)

Canonical, I hope you are not an accountant by trade. Let’s look at the corresponding EBITDA numbers for imaging divisions. Shall we...


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 9, 2019)

canonical said:


> nope. It does not mean they are "gaining net customers". market share is about revenue, not about number of customers. Does not matter whether their revenue is achieved with 1 customer or with a million. Canon's had less (imaging) revenue each year for the last 5 years, they just managed to lose less than total erall market was shrinking.


Canon (and really, everyone but Sony) uses unit sales to determine market share. In other words, 49% of ILCs sold in 2018 were made by Canon, and based on Canon’s IR info and CIPA data, they’re still at 49% for 1H19. 

As you say, market _share_ is relative, everyone is losing sales in a contracting market, Canon is losing fewer sales so they are gaining relative to other ILC makers.


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## canonical (Aug 9, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Canonical, I hope you are not an accountant by trade. Let’s look at the corresponding EBITDA numbers for imaging divisions. Shall we...



well, you are obviously not an accountant. Otherwise you'd know that EBITDA and market share are two totally different concepts. A company could have 100% market share and still have a massively negative EBITDA. Or a very high EBITDA and yet a tiny market share. 

Also, meaningful EBITDA comparisons are not possible for imaging gear makers based on publicly available data. It starts with the different businesses they lump into "imaging division" and does not end there.


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## masterpix (Aug 9, 2019)

Well, I have the original 7, and it works wonderful (and so will for many more years), however there are a few features that it lacks, DPAF for one, multiple exposure, less number of focusing points, only 7FPS, and maximal sensor sensitivity. I was hoping for 7Dm3 to upgrate the sensor capabilities, but since I don't own Canon, I am not the one making the commercial descisions there, and will inspect the 90D when it comes out and choose when and what to upgrade. One good thing that any camera will do is to reduce the price of the 7Dm2 (which may play a part in the descision making). Our wish as photographers are different at times than those of the manufactors, and in the end, it is a compromise between our needs and the option that the tool gives us.


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## Pape (Aug 9, 2019)

I bet 90d got better specs that 7d2 . 
canon just got no desing resources atm to make strong and sealed camera. Maybe 5 year later there willl be 7d mirrorless


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## SecureGSM (Aug 9, 2019)

canonical said:


> well, you are obviously not an accountant. Otherwise you'd know that EBITDA and market share are two totally different concepts. A company could have 100% market share and still have a massively negative EBITDA. Or a very high EBITDA and yet a tiny market share.
> 
> Also, meaningful EBITDA comparisons are not possible for imaging gear makers based on publicly available data. It starts with the different businesses they lump into "imaging division" and does not end there.


that was my point. re-read your post.. you were referring to revenue as a metrics then talked about market share... you are obviously confused.

here is what you said:

market share is about revenue, not about number of customers.

*complete utterly non-sensual drivel.*

there is a market share by revenue and market share by units sold and market share by customers and market share by numbers of a brand Trolls and Shills coming to CR website.

I dare to say that SONY is the global market share leader by numbers of Trolls and Shills at this site. here you have it, my friend.

keep trolling.


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## 4D (Aug 9, 2019)

Wouldn't it be great if the expected 90D skewed heavily towards a camera for us dinosaurs, you know, people that use their camera 99.9999% of the time for taking photos through a big, clear optical viewfinder. Since it could be one of the last DSLR iterations, it makes sense to us, maybe not Canon, to buy a durable camera that comfortably lasted 10 years, and for Canon it would encourage us to keep buying EF lenses.

To save costs and tilt the feature set in favour of a camera closer to what we would expect in a 7DIII, they could leave out all but the most basic of video features, whatever those are, just 1080 22.1 frames, 1.45 cropped, whatever, who cares. There are plenty of other options for those that want high-tech video that many don't need or want.

Then we could get something that wildlife photographers want - a robust camera with decent weather sealing, not necessarily the best, 10+ frame rate and a bump in decent lowlight performance to very usable at 12,800 (happy now at 6400 on 77D). That's about all I want.

I'm sitting waiting patiently with my 7D not doing much unless I'm in a game park, because we use my wife's 77D most of the time because the sensor in lowlight is just so much better. The 77D is a great camera, but it's hers because of the modes on dial, sport etc!, and a touch too small for my preferences.

I swing daily on whether to go for R/RP, downsize to M5 II, or go with a 90D, but what I most want for the next few years is something to match my 100-400 mkII.

I just got my daughter to buy the M50, which seems a great camera for everyday stuff, but holding the 100-400 on it is a joke, and I can definitely say looking at birds and wildlife through the viewfinder all day will not be pleasant. So it's put me off going RF.

Of course, this wish is way too late now, but if by chance they've been reading threads here I think they might have determined an "old-school" inspired DSLR with a great new sensor would go down a treat with the wildlife set for many years.


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 9, 2019)

mpb001 said:


> I am a Canon user 5DIV and a Rebel SL1. Both very different grades of cameras. I used the SL1 for a trip to Europe and shot with it in drizzle one day and it never had a problem. From what I read the forthcoming 90D will have weather seals. My hunch is it will be a more robust build than previous models in that series, especially if there will not be another 7D upgrade. Just my two cents.


I have little doubt that it will be more robust than the 80d. But I also have no doubt it will be less robust than the 7d2. Will likely also lack dual digics. Maybe won't have two card slots(hope I am wrong there). Joystick? shutter life? It won't be as customizable(if nothing else because it will lose real estate on the left hand side for buttons). There are many ways it can improve on the 80d and still fall short of the truly professional quality body the 7d2 is.


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## -pekr- (Aug 9, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I have little doubt that it will be more robust than the 80d. But I also have no doubt it will be less robust than the 7d2. Will likely also lack dual digics. Maybe won't have two card slots(hope I am wrong there). Joystick? shutter life? It won't be as customizable(if nothing else because it will lose real estate on the left hand side for buttons). There are many ways it can improve on the 80d and still fall short of the truly professional quality body the 7d2 is.



According to specs speculated, it looks to be more in a 7D territory, than it ever was in the 80D territory - dual digic, dual card slot? IIRC never was the case with the xxD line. Weather sealing should be imo OK. Wonder about the joystick. Maybe Canon is trying to create kind of Nikon 500/850 universal soldier.

But - if new 90D does not kind of replace 7DII, I wonder what data Canon had, to give-up on what many ppl might think as a successful model. For me, a bit surprising ...


----------



## canonical (Aug 9, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> there is a market share by revenue and market share by units sold and market share by customers



would you mind providing links to this form of "market share" for Canon and imaging gear industry?

if anybody is trolling here, than it is you.

"market share" is typically based on revenue. Canon and some others in the industry trying to base "market share" on "units shipped" (as opposed to sold to customers) irrespective of price (revenue) is rather atypical and definitely less useful as a measure than revenue based market share. CIPA stats therefore provided both poeces of information: units shipped and revenue (based on some form of ex-factory pricing) - but unfortunately they do not break it down by member company in their published reports.

so there you have it. now keep on beancounting and have a grat day.


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 9, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> According to specs speculated, it looks to be more in a 7D territory, than it ever was in the 80D territory - dual digic, dual card slot? IIRC never was the case with the xxD line. Weather sealing should be imo OK. Wonder about the joystick. Maybe Canon is trying to create kind of Nikon 500/850 universal soldier.
> 
> But - if new 90D does not kind of replace 7DII, I wonder what data Canon had, to give-up on what many ppl might think as a successful model. For me, a bit surprising ...


I don't really get it either. If they had to merge two lines to simplify things it would makemore sense(to me, obviously not to canon) to retain the 7 series and merge the 80 d and 77d. But I don't have access to their books.


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## Joules (Aug 9, 2019)

Out of curiosity, is there anything out there that shows just how much worse the 80D is at handling bad weather than the 7D II? As I don't have any truly weather sealed lenses (Sigma 150-600mm C has a rubber gasget at least) and no interest in getting wet myself, I only used my 80D in drizzle. But I did that with my T3i as well without issues, and that had no sealing at all.

Seeing how well the EOS R handled the recent weather sealing test despite having pretty minimalistic sealing according to the lens rentals disassembly got me wondering.

Maybe there is less difference between the 7D II and lower cost models than some might think. At any point, we get into the territory where the question becomes "Is it good enough for most people?", like with DR and so many specs. I guess Canon knows the answer and thinks that to few people care enough about weather sealing under really extreme conditions but are willing to pay a premium so large it pushes the price past FF mirror less offerings.

Also, it seems a lot of people have had either some gripe about softness with their 7D II or moan about the superior AF in the D500. Probably just a loud minority. But the 80D seems to get far less criticism, at least on this forum. If Canon are not interested in putting much money in DSLR specific R&D anymore, it makes sense to focus on the less picky market segment.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 9, 2019)

canonical said:


> would you mind providing links to this form of "market share" for Canon and imaging gear industry?
> 
> if anybody is trolling here, than it is you.
> 
> ...


i am a sales exec if that matters qualified in Financial Selling and Client Value Method s a part of my professional studies.

when you are saying "typically" it is obviously typical to yourself. this is what matters to you, personally, to AvTvM/ Canonical.
and this is where your ever confused state of mind is originated from: this world is not what you think it is. hence you keep changing your forum identities one after another after another. nothing works out and none seems to understand your twisted logic or rather lack of thereof.
bye...


----------



## Aussie shooter (Aug 9, 2019)

Joules said:


> Out of curiosity, is there anything out there that shows just how much worse the 80D is at handling bad weather than the 7D II? As I don't have any truly weather sealed lenses (Sigma 150-600mm C has a rubber gasget at least) and no interest in getting wet myself, I only used my 80D in drizzle. But I did that with my T3i as well without issues, and that had no sealing at all.
> 
> Seeing how well the EOS R handled the recent weather sealing test despite having pretty minimalistic sealing according to the lens rentals disassembly got me wondering.
> 
> ...


Short of putting a hose on them I can't give you a demo but the 7d2 is sealed to the 1d level. I am not sure exactly what level the 80d is but I would guess around the 6d level. So third tier. But there are more things than just weather sealing to robustness. More metal, less plastic. Everything inside built just that little bit stronger. All components that bit better quality. These are the areas I imagine the 90d will fall short. 
It will absolutely be good enough for most people though. Especially enthusiasts. Not sure how many pros will get it as a serious second body


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 9, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> i am a sales exec if that matters qualified in Financial Selling and Client Value Method s a part of my professional studies.
> 
> when you are saying "typically" it is obviously typical to yourself. this is what matters to you, personally, to AvTvM/ Canonical.
> and this is where your ever confused state of mind is originated from: this world is not what you think it is. hence you keep changing your forum identities one after another after another. nothing works out and none seems to understand your twisted logic or rather lack of thereof.
> bye...



Did your professional studies include any lessons on respect to others?


----------



## Talys (Aug 9, 2019)

canonical said:


> "market share" is typically based on revenue.



It actually isn't. There are countless examples of where that just isn't so, like a search engine's marketshare, where how many people use it is much more important than how much revenue is generated, or soda on a grocery store shelf, where marketshare reflects unit volumes, or fast food restaurants, where the most important metric is the number of visits. Or television shows, where marketshare reflects viewership.

I'd argue that as an enthusiast, I'm more interested in which system has larger user base than which system sells the most dollars of stuff each year, because more users make it easier for me to buy or sell used equipment.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 9, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Did your professional studies include any lessons on respect to others?



there is nothing disrespectful in pointing out that Canonical keeps changing identities and keep coming back again and again with confused ideas centered around his own unique (well, twisted) understanding of reality. not sure what part of the world you are coming from, perhaps that justifies your perception..


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## dtaylor (Aug 9, 2019)

canonical said:


> "market share" is typically based on revenue.



Any time I've encountered the term "market share" without a qualifier it has referred to units sold or to customers, and that's across multiple industries.


----------



## haggie (Aug 9, 2019)

haggie said:


> in reply to
> 
> 
> Why wait for specs, canonical? Do you expect the 90D to match or even surpass the 7D Mk II as an action camera?
> ...






dtaylor said:


> Isn't Canon famous for releasing *5*D cameras that turned out to be equal/better landscape/studio cameras than the *1*D bodies, and at cheaper prices?



Yes, dtaylor, the 5D is a fine camera for the purposes you describe: landscape, studio and I myself will even add: for occasional action stills. The 1D-series is the action-beast with terrific performance for action photography. Although the 5D-series is 'derived from' the 1D to some extent, the 5D does not match the 1D as an action camera, let alone that it surpasses the 1D. 
The 5D is a (very capable) all-rounder. But in the areas that are important for an action camera (e.g.AF), it falls short of the 1D.

The 90D will be an allrounder because the rumoured specs and all other 'leaks' show clearly it is aimed at a multitude of users (both stills and video). No all-rounder can match the 7D Mk II as an speedy action camera. Just like the 5D never matched the 1D as an action camera.
So anyone with a 7D Mk II will not get a better action camera with the 90D. That was my initial post. 
Thanks for effectively confirming my point.


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## Hector1970 (Aug 9, 2019)

I will be interested in the 90D when it comes out.
Image quality at higher ISO's will be interesting. I'm not sure how much effort Canon want to put in to make this camera better than a 7DII.
Personally I think I would have a problem replacing a 7DII with a camera with the same FPS.
Most sport I do in broad daylight with fast lens so I can keep the ISO reasonable at high shutter speeds. Mine is getting close is about 4.5 years old, well battered but keeps on working.
If after 5 years Canon bring out a near identical camera in terms of FPS when they could go to 12 or 14 FPS it would be a disappointment to me.
There would be alot of other buyers it would be attractive too especially people looking to upgrade XXD cameras but I'm well past that.
I may be tempted to keep saving and wait for the 1DX III or the first mirrorless 1X series.


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## tron (Aug 9, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> I will be interested in the 90D when it comes out.
> Image quality at higher ISO's will be interesting. I'm not sure how much effort Canon want to put in to make this camera better than a 7DII.
> Personally I think I would have a problem replacing a 7DII with a camera with the same FPS.
> Most sport I do in broad daylight with fast lens so I can keep the ISO reasonable at high shutter speeds. Mine is getting close is about 4.5 years old, well battered but keeps on working.
> ...


Aren't 10fps enough? I use my 7DII at 8 fps max in order to prolong continuous shooting time.


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 9, 2019)

Hector1970 said:


> I will be interested in the 90D when it comes out.
> Image quality at higher ISO's will be interesting. I'm not sure how much effort Canon want to put in to make this camera better than a 7DII.
> Personally I think I would have a problem replacing a 7DII with a camera with the same FPS.
> Most sport I do in broad daylight with fast lens so I can keep the ISO reasonable at high shutter speeds. Mine is getting close is about 4.5 years old, well battered but keeps on working.
> ...


Interestingly enough the fps don't bother me at all. Unlike many I have no interest in more than 10fps(and yes I shoot wildlife including BIF). It just becomes too much crap to sort through for that one good shot.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Aug 9, 2019)

If it has the sports specs equal or slightly better than an 7D mII combined with on improved 80D, I will get one. and postpone going for a eos R and get the eos R II when it comes out.


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## AprilForever (Aug 9, 2019)

They should just call it the 7d mk iii. Nix the xxd line. I feel like Canon is trying to push 7d shooters up to fullframe and does not care what we want or think. I feel for all the fans of APS-H... Canon needs a pro-level crop camera, not this nerf nonsense.


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## neo302 (Aug 9, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> So what?


Useful


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 9, 2019)

canonical said:


> would you mind providing links to this form of "market share" for Canon and imaging gear industry?
> 
> if anybody is trolling here, than it is you.
> 
> "market share" is typically based on revenue. Canon and some others in the industry trying to base "market share" on "units shipped" (as opposed to sold to customers) irrespective of price (revenue) is rather atypical and definitely less useful as a measure than revenue based market share.



So, top business publications like Nikkei are trolling?


> There is a new Nikkei article on the latest global camera market share - here is the recap: the digital camera market is down 22% for 2018, the top five companies hold 85.2% *market share with a total of 20,290,000 units* (-22.2%):
> 
> Canon 40.5 % (+ 3.9)
> Nikon 19.1 % (- 2.7)
> ...



Top market research firms like IDC are trolling?







BCN reports their rankings as percent of units sold in Japan. As I stated, Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc., focus on unit sales.

Canon:


> Looking at interchangeable-lens cameras, in addition to market contraction centered on entry-class DSLRs, in 2018 we launched three new products that led to a high level of sales in the second quarter of last year. As a result, *unit sales* for the second quarter this year were down 22% to 1.08 million.
> Against this backdrop, we successively launched strategic full-frame models into the mirrorless camera market from the second half of last year. The introduction of a high-end model, further heightened our presence in the market and at the same time had a positive impact on overall sales of our mirrorless cameras.
> On the other hand, in the full-frame category of the market where price competition is increasing, as a result of prioritizing profitability, *unit sales* were below our target. However, for interchangeable-lens cameras overall, our *unit sales* were in line with our plan. As a result, we retained our full-year projection for unit sales. In terms of revenue, we did lower our projection to reflect a change in product mix to our plan. However, in the second half of the year we will stimulate sales through the launch of new lenses.



Nikon:


> But a recent interview given to Nikkei by Nikon CEO Toshikazu Umatate seems to ring a slightly more hopeful tune.
> 
> When asked what he thought about the “very harsh” digital camera environment, Toshikazu-san began by admitting that things have been tough. “Our *unit sales* decreased to less than one-sixth in comparison to fiscal 2012 which is the recent peak year,” he told the publication, “[and] there may be more downside risk ahead.”



In the digital imaging business, there seem to be only two places where market share represents revenue – in Sony’s IR material and press releases, and in the AvTvM Universe. And of those two, only one actually exists in the real world.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 9, 2019)

neo302 said:


> Useful


As opposed to the standard _‘it had better have X feature or else_’?


----------



## shakedong93 (Aug 9, 2019)

TrubadorPhotography said:


> I've been following CR for quite sometime, but only now joined the forum.
> 
> As someone who got into the DSLR realm only 5-½ years ago with my current Rebel T3i and a handful of basic lenses, I have been anxiously waiting for this 80D/7D replacement model for over a year.
> 
> ...


Get RP you won’t regret it! I can’t believe you can stand T3i that long.. i shoot more portrait, I absolutely can not stand SL2, and I’m not regretting the upgrade... especiallly for the price. (Greentoe accept my offer &1069 with adapter)


----------



## criscokkat (Aug 9, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> According to specs speculated, it looks to be more in a 7D territory, than it ever was in the 80D territory - dual digic, dual card slot? IIRC never was the case with the xxD line. Weather sealing should be imo OK. Wonder about the joystick. Maybe Canon is trying to create kind of Nikon 500/850 universal soldier.
> 
> But - if new 90D does not kind of replace 7DII, I wonder what data Canon had, to give-up on what many ppl might think as a successful model. For me, a bit surprising ...


If it uses XQD cards, I'm ok with one slot. The chances of failure are very small to begin with. Coupled with the fact that the XQD uses a different writing sequence much more like a PCIe internal SSD drive if there is a failure it's usually on a block level where only one or two individual pictures might be corrupt, not the whole card like with older media.


----------



## Otara (Aug 9, 2019)

Joules said:


> Out of curiosity, is there anything out there that shows just how much worse the 80D is at handling bad weather than the 7D II? As I don't have any truly weather sealed lenses (Sigma 150-600mm C has a rubber gasget at least) and no interest in getting wet myself, I only used my 80D in drizzle. But I did that with my T3i as well without issues, and that had no sealing at all.



I have done extensive practical testing by flooding my 7D in an underwater housing and dropping/submerging my 80d in a rockpool as well as using them both and a 7D2 in rain many times.

In both cases with saltwater they were damaged but did surprisingly well, still turning on etc, and the leaks were minor but unfortunately ultimately lethal. The 7D also survived various splashes with saltwater before its final immolation but Im pretty sure that was dicing with disaster.

Have never had any problems with rain other than a button not responding till it dried on my 6D. My 100-400mm II was also submerged in the seawater rockpool and still works perfectly 2 years later.

Dont do what I do, but many concerns about rain and weather are a bit overblown, saltwater is the real killer to worry about no matter what you're using and even there its surprising how well they do if you're not completely homicidal towards cameras like I appear to be. Dust/sand and powder is a whole other story too.


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## BroncosFan (Aug 9, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> OK seriously: what is it with the Mirrorless Cult? It's getting to the point where mirrorless shooters are expecting a spaceship to appear in the sky to transport them and their Nikes to a planet with nothing but super model filled national parks, leaving the heathen mirror slappers behind. And of course if that UFO isn't filled with Canon mirrorless cameras then *CANON. IS. *******.
> 
> DSLRs still out sell mirrorless cameras, and do so by wide margins in north America and Europe.* There is still a large market of people who want the DSLR form factor and an OVF. Yes, yes, sooner or later those sales will cross over. And guess what? Even then, for years, there will still be a market for DSLRs. Mirrorless is not a paradigm shift, and quite frankly it still, after a decade of being developed and pushed, still has some cons vs SLRs. We can nitpick the small differences between the two designs, but honestly if you can't get the shot with a 7D mark II or a 90D...you're probably not going to get it with mirrorless either.
> 
> The entire ILC market is experiencing severe contraction as people rely more and more on phones. And let's face it, there's also a bit of consumer exhaustion with all the photos out there. Hoping for the 90D to flop is the same as hoping you have a smaller market with fewer options, from Canon or any manufacturer, in the future.



Yeah, I don’t get this whole mirrorless revolution either. I guess to some folks, when they pick up something different everything that came before it is just useless. I’m very much in the newer isn’t always better camp myself.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 9, 2019)

BroncosFan said:


> Yeah, I don’t get this whole mirrorless revolution either.



It’s not a revolution...


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## stevelee (Aug 9, 2019)

canonical said:


> "market share" is typically based on revenue.



Sometimes. I don't read Sony press releases, so this board is where I see that meaning the most. Most of the time when I see the term without other qualifiers, context suggests that it means units sold. Companies will brag about units shipped, which may mean there are many, many units in warehouses and sitting on store shelves. Getting into an argument over which common definition of a term is valid makes a whole lot less sense than just saying what you mean in the first place.

Several years back I recall reading that Apple did not have a huge share of the smart phone market. Samsung had better numbers, but still not huge. But the report went on to say that Apple and Samsung accounted for 134% (or something like that) of the profits.


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## TenPoundTabby (Aug 9, 2019)

I too am looking forward to the 90D. On a Rebel T5 right now. 

I also don't get the mirrorless cult. Some people are unhinged, hoping that Canon flops with the 90D just so they can have more one fewer camera with a mirror. It's creepy, the limitless hate for something that doesn't affect their lives at all. You people, please see a doctor. 

Also, the people threatening Canon demanding feature X or feature Y, or you will raise your tiny fists in the direction of Canon HQ and post angry crap on the interwebz. Ooooohhh. Canon's shaking in their shoes. Please see a doctor, too. 

And yes, I can stand (OHMYGOSH) using a T5. I know, it's like how can I SURVIVE using something that isn't the latestgreatestshinytech??? 

Maybe it's because I'm sane.


----------



## sdz (Aug 9, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Or what?


He'll not buy it?


----------



## stevelee (Aug 9, 2019)

Three weeks ago at the supermarket I bought two boxes of Crunch and Munch. I consumed the contents while watching TV a few nights. So last week I was going to buy a couple more boxes. I went to the same shelf. Not only were there no boxes of Crunch and Munch, but there was no bare shelf space and no price label for it. There was in fact no kind of caramel corn, Cracker Jack, or anything like that. At checkout I was asked as usual whether I found everything, and I reported the sudden disappearance. A manager was summoned, and the database showed no such product. He concluded that they must not carry it any more.

Now I'm not as fussy as you guys. I'm not demanding the caramel over the butter toffee flavor or even a particular brand or even whether it has nuts or what kind. But at least I can sympathize a bit more with those of you who demand some feature, and plan to make major financial transactions of selling and buying and jumping among ships accordingly if it doesn't appear in accord with your timetable. I do find it hard to believe that everyone else has quit eating caramel corn, Cracker Jack, and the like, besides me.


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## dtaylor (Aug 9, 2019)

haggie said:


> Yes, dtaylor, the 5D is a fine camera for the purposes you describe: landscape, studio and I myself will even add: for occasional action stills. The 1D-series is the action-beast with terrific performance for action photography.



You're missing the point. Originally the 1D series was both: 1D for action, 1Ds for high resolution landscape/studio. Canon eventually made the cheaper 5D series the landscape/studio camera.

The post I was responding to claimed that Canon would never make a 90D good enough to serve as a 7D mark III because Canon would never do 'something like that', make a cheaper series replace a more expensive one. But they have. And let us not forget that the xxD series was once everything people came to expect the 7D series to be: tough sealed magnesium bodies, action orientated, etc. Canon introduced the 7D so that they had room to make the xxD series more 'prosumer' orientated. Who is to say they aren't merging the lines again and the xxD won't be every bit as tough as the 7Ds were?



> The 90D will be an allrounder because the rumoured specs and all other 'leaks' show clearly it is aimed at a multitude of users (both stills and video). No all-rounder can match the 7D Mk II as an speedy action camera.



And what if the 90D uses the rumored M6 II sensor and can do 16 fps (mirror up) with AF/AE? Then what?

The badge is not 'magic'. The specs determine what the camera can do.


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## dtaylor (Aug 9, 2019)

TenPoundTabby said:


> I also don't get the mirrorless cult. Some people are unhinged, hoping that Canon flops with the 90D just so they can have more one fewer camera with a mirror. It's creepy, the limitless hate for something that doesn't affect their lives at all. You people, please see a doctor.



It's getting so bad that soon we're going to have to form a group to defend mirror slapper rights  



> And yes, I can stand (OHMYGOSH) using a T5. I know, it's like how can I SURVIVE using something that isn't the latestgreatestshinytech???



The T5 uses the 18mp sensor that originated in the 7D, right?

I tend to overhaul my entire kit and then shoot for years. I shot on a 10D and 20D longer than I probably should have (still have the 10D and it still works), then jumped to a 7D that I used for nearly a decade. My next overhaul was straight to 50mp FF. Now I fell in love with the IQ you get from high resolution FF. But that 18mp crop sensor filled multiple 17x22 albums with sharp, detailed prints.

I can remember when the 11mp 1Ds was the greatest thing in 35mm and 18mp would have been the domain of MF digital backs that were ISO limited to 200 or less (practically). Now you have to "tolerate" an 18mp sensor with a much greater ISO range.

Some people don't know what they have or how far photography has come.


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## dtaylor (Aug 9, 2019)

stevelee said:


> I do find it hard to believe that everyone else has quit eating caramel corn, Cracker Jack, and the like, besides me.



Clearly you've jumped timelines. What were cameras like in your timeline? In ours web sites like DPReview push nothing but Canon cameras based on their OxD Appealing Color Science scores. Us Sony fans keep trying to talk about dynamic range and keep trying to get a fair review, but nobody will hear it


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## LensFungus (Aug 9, 2019)

According to Sonyalpharumors Sony will launch most likely two new APS-C E-Mount cameras at the end of the month. Once more new Sony stuff when Canon had the same plan. While my normal reaction for the last weeks was that Canon wouldn't get bashed by photography pages / people for their two upcoming cameras, I do think that now it's pretty obvious that people will compare the Canon 90D / M6 Mark II with the Sony APS-C flagship. I know, different cameras, but hey it's the internet, so they will compare like they did it before with Sony A73 + Fujifilm X-T3 or Sony A7R2 + Canon 5D4.

In other news: I just want my Canon M6 Mark II.


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## Trey T (Aug 9, 2019)

styoda said:


> There is a mirrorless version, It's called the Canon EOS M6 Mark II


Can you specify how much equivalent it is to the 90D?


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## TrubadorPhotography (Aug 9, 2019)

Jethro said:


> Have you thought about the EOS RP? EF lenses work great on it and the EOS R with the adaptor. You're absolutely in the middle of the demographic that Canon wants to encourage into FF mirrorless, hence the pricing on the EOS RP (and the cut-down 5Diii which is the EOS R for those with a bit more money to spend).





shakedong93 said:


> Get RP you won’t regret it! I can’t believe you can stand T3i that long.. i shoot more portrait, I absolutely can not stand SL2, and I’m not regretting the upgrade... especiallly for the price. (Greentoe accept my offer &1069 with adapter)





BroncosFan said:


> Yeah, I don’t get this whole mirrorless revolution either. I guess to some folks, when they pick up something different everything that came before it is just useless. I’m very much in the newer isn’t always better camp myself.



I have no interest, at this time, in getting into the mirrorless realm while it's still in it's infancy. When it has matured, proven it's abilities, improved it's specs, and dropped in it's price, THEN maybe get into it. And, at that point, I will have grown in my own abilities as a photographer and delving into well-established FF mirrorless would make more sense (to me, at least). Which is why I think in 4-5 years a mirrorless 5D-type camera from Canon with an EF adapter could make perfect sense (and that's if I want to go the full "pro" route).

I bought my T3i new in March of 2014. It was my first DSLR. At the time, it really came down to either Canon or Nikon (kinda like the Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus of the camera world... it's a strained analogy, I know, but you kinda get the point). I had already gravitated toward Canon having used their P&S camera, plus they had the better lens reputation. I narrowed it down to three models: the new T5, the older T3i and the new SL1. The T5 did not have an articulating LCD screen, and that was a big issue for me, while the specs difference compared to the T3i were not that much of a deal-breaker. I went into a Fry's to put my hand on the SL1 and it was waaaay too small for my hands. So I went with the T3i, got the kit lens, and a couple other EF lenses (including the Nifty-50).

I was prepared to move up to the 80D a little over a year ago, but then the rumors started swirling about it's soon-coming replacement. I waited while the rumors continued, and instead bought my L lens (which I love) and a Rokinon aspherical wide angle (that I'm not happy with).

I'm not at the stage in my abilities (and needs) to go FF like a 5D or 6D. Moving into the top-of-the-line crop-sensor makes the most sense for me (ability-wise and cost-wise). That meant either the 80D or the 7D. Now that I was proven wise to wait as the soon-coming "90D" will be a merged upgrade of those two models. $1400-1500 body-only fits my nitch. Anything above my T3i's barely 4-fps is a major bonus for action shots. Most of the new specs being floated around for the new "90D" sound great to me.

You'll see the link to my (for now) Flickr page in my signature, below. The "Portfolio" album will give you an idea of things I shoot.


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## Trey T (Aug 9, 2019)

masterpix said:


> I wonder why anyone wish others to fail? As you know, Canon is commited to their R line and develop a growing line of RF lenses. So why "wish" that the DSLR will be a "flopp"? By the way, anger attitude generate wrinkls on people face if you haven't noticed that already.


70%+ gave thumbs up and look at all of the following consensus.


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## Trey T (Aug 9, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> OK seriously: what is it with the Mirrorless Cult? It's getting to the point where mirrorless shooters are expecting a spaceship to appear in the sky to transport them and their Nikes to a planet with nothing but super model filled national parks, leaving the heathen mirror slappers behind. And of course if that UFO isn't filled with Canon mirrorless cameras then *CANON. IS. *******.
> 
> DSLRs still out sell mirrorless cameras, and do so by wide margins in north America and Europe.* There is still a large market of people who want the DSLR form factor and an OVF. Yes, yes, sooner or later those sales will cross over. And guess what? Even then, for years, there will still be a market for DSLRs. Mirrorless is not a paradigm shift, and quite frankly it still, after a decade of being developed and pushed, still has some cons vs SLRs. We can nitpick the small differences between the two designs, but honestly if you can't get the shot with a 7D mark II or a 90D...you're probably not going to get it with mirrorless either.
> 
> The entire ILC market is experiencing severe contraction as people rely more and more on phones. And let's face it, there's also a bit of consumer exhaustion with all the photos out there. Hoping for the 90D to flop is the same as hoping you have a smaller market with fewer options, from Canon or any manufacturer, in the future.


For some of us that uses DSLR to shoot video more than photos, are you saying that we can't demand for mirrorless? I mean, after all, when shooting video, it's practically a mirrorless device to capture the video. So why not push it a bit further and demand for the removal of the mirror?


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 9, 2019)

Trey T said:


> For some of us that uses DSLR to shoot video more than photos, are you saying that we can't demand for mirrorless? I mean, after all, when shooting video, it's practically a mirrorless device to capture the video. So why not push it a bit further and demand for the removal of the mirror?


Because there is room for both.


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## Trey T (Aug 9, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Because there is room for both.


of course! what did you assumed?


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## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

snappy604 said:


> I'm not a dedicated wildlife photog, but I do take quite a bit of wildlife pics.
> 
> For me the 7D mk2 felt like a minor improvement over the 7D at a highish (at the time) cost. The image quality/dynamic range/low light performance, focus points, tilty screen, etc were noticeable improvements on the 80D from the 7D. ..
> 
> The burst rate and weather sealing were probably my main concerns.. but found it was fast enough for most things for me and I was more careful in bad weather. I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but the other capabilities more than made it better than an original 7D (which is what was being said)... probably less so for a 7D mk2.



Can you honestly say you think the 80D AF system is in any way comparable to the 7D Mark II AF system, much less better? Have you ever actually looked through a 7D Mark II viewfinder? Not to mention the additional AF configuration options in the 7D Mark II menu that are absent in the 80D AF menu.

The only place the 80D has better sensor performance (IQ/DR/etc.) is below ISO 400. That's not where most sports/action/wildlife photographers live. Above ISO 800 the 7D Mark II has better DR and, more importantly for low light/high ISO performance, significantly better S/N ratio.

Please stop repeating what the youTube sensationalists spew in order to generate more clicks without actually doing your own homework.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

snappy604 said:


> I'm not a dedicated wildlife photog, but I do take quite a bit of wildlife pics.
> 
> For me the 7D mk2 felt like a minor improvement over the 7D at a highish (at the time) cost. The image quality/dynamic range/low light performance, focus points, tilty screen, etc were noticeable improvements on the 80D from the 7D. ..
> 
> The burst rate and weather sealing were probably my main concerns.. but found it was fast enough for most things for me and I was more careful in bad weather. I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but the other capabilities more than made it better than an original 7D (which is what was being said)... probably less so for a 7D mk2.



No one said the 80D was not an improvement over the 7D, which had a few glaring weaknesses.

I'm saying the 7D Mark II was a more significant improvement over the 7D than the 80D was unless your primary concern is DR below ISO 400.

The 7D Mark II has a better, more sophisticated, more configurable AF system than the 80D. By all indications the "90D" is going to have the same 45-point AF system that the 80D has.

At ISO 800 and above the 7D Mark II sensor outperforms the 80D's, particularly in terms of S/N ratio. That's where sports/action/wildlife photographers often live.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

wsmith96 said:


> Wonder what the odds are that canon would release the M6 with an R mount and make an adapter to support Ef-m lenses. That would make a nice tie in to get a common mount across the board. Just a thought.



Zero.

Because the lugs on the R mount extend more than 2mm behind the flange, and the throat diameter of the R mount is larger than the throat diameter of the EF-M mount, that is physically impossible. The lugs of an R lens would hit the mounting flange on an EF-M camera before the lens was far enough back for the flange on the R lens to be only 2mm in front of the flange on the EF-M camera.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 9, 2019)

Trey T said:


> For some of us that uses DSLR to shoot video more than photos, are you saying that we can't demand for mirrorless?



Asking for additional mirrorless bodies and hoping that a new SLR model will fail so that Canon abandons all SLR development are two different things.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> I’m not so sure.. I chose the 80D over the 7D2 and I’m glad I did. I may get ever so slightly fewer sharp images, but I can crop more and I can push shadows more. Which is a big deal in wildlife shooting.



Are you typically shooting below ISO 400? If not, you might be surprised that the 7D Mark II sensor outperforms the 80D above about ISO 800.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

Woody said:


> So, we won't be seeing an update to the M5? Sigh.



At least not one announced by the end of August. Presumably these will not be the last new products Canon ever introduces.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

mpb001 said:


> I am a Canon user 5DIV and a Rebel SL1. Both very different grades of cameras. I used the SL1 for a trip to Europe and shot with it in drizzle one day and it never had a problem. From what I read the forthcoming 90D will have weather seals. My hunch is it will be a more robust build than previous models in that series, especially if there will not be another 7D upgrade. Just my two cents.



More robust than the SL1 does not necessarily mean as robust as the 7D Mark II.


----------



## neo302 (Aug 9, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> As opposed to the standard _‘it had better have X feature or else_’?


I’m providing feedback around important features I’m looking for. I want to buy Canon, but won’t if they don’t provide what I need. You obviously don't appear to care what people are looking for or helping Canon profits. I’m not a sheep.


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## snappy604 (Aug 9, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Can you honestly say you think the 80D AF system is in any way comparable to the 7D Mark II AF system, much less better? Have you ever actually looked through a 7D Mark II viewfinder? Not to mention the additional AF configuration options in the 7D Mark II menu that are absent in the 80D AF menu.
> 
> The only place the 80D has better sensor performance (IQ/DR/etc.) is below ISO 400. That's not where most sports/action/wildlife photographers live. Above ISO 800 the 7D Mark II has better DR and, more importantly for low light/high ISO performance, significantly better S/N ratio.
> 
> Please stop repeating what the youTube sensationalist spew in order to generate more clicks without actually doing your own homework.




first off.. that's a shitty assumption "Please stop repeating what the youTube sensationalist spew in order to generate more clicks without actually doing your own homework." . Everything I said was 100% my experience, I have had this for a few years now. I also had a 7D mk1 for 6+ yrs. The comment was against a 7D mk1... as I indicated and you mis-read.


Michael Clark said:


> Can you honestly say you think the 80D AF system is in any way comparable to the 7D Mark II AF system, much less better? Have you ever actually looked through a 7D Mark II viewfinder? Not to mention the additional AF configuration options in the 7D Mark II menu that are absent in the 80D AF menu.
> 
> The only place the 80D has better sensor performance (IQ/DR/etc.) is below ISO 400. That's not where most sports/action/wildlife photographers live. Above ISO 800 the 7D Mark II has better DR and, more importantly for low light/high ISO performance, significantly better S/N ratio.
> 
> Please stop repeating what the youTube sensationalists spew in order to generate more clicks without actually doing your own homework.






You have two very different posts near each other.. won't quote both.. but my premise was replying to 'EduPortas' who said "
This forum has documented lots of you guys are still using the original 7D every day, either for work or pleasure. My anecdotal experience confirms this.

Stepping down to a 90D does not seem like a wise choice." 

going from a 7D mk1 to a 90D would not be stepping down, an 80D was a big improvement over the 7D Mk1.

this is 100% my experience. your comment is lazy/shitty "Please stop repeating what the youTube sensationalists spew in order to generate more clicks without actually doing your own homework.".. . I only rarely look at youtubes about cameras and only if I'm trying get a grasp of capabilities. I owned/own a D60 (6mpx!), several G series, 40D, 7D mk1 (over 6yrs of heavy use) and an 80D (3yrs or so). I speak from my experiences and I know it won't fit everyone's needs, but it's not re-hashed from others..

as for your comments about 7d Mk2 vs 80D.. yes the differences from a 7D mk2 vs an 80D are much less, but it doesn't negate the 80D from taking pretty decent wild life pics and having added capabilities. The advantages of a 80D over a 7D mk1 are huge!, over an 7D mk2.. it's a harder discussion, but 80D is much cheaper and is a good camera.. which is my premise. Will the 90D be 7D III level for some of the people that push it to the max? probably not, but it will be pretty good.





this was on my 80D.. it tracks fairly well, good DR etc. This image is even lower quality than it should be as it was re-processed from FB.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

4D said:


> Wouldn't it be great if the expected 90D skewed heavily towards a camera for us dinosaurs, you know, people that use their camera 99.9999% of the time for taking photos through a big, clear optical viewfinder. Since it could be one of the last DSLR iterations, it makes sense to us, maybe not Canon, to buy a durable camera that comfortably lasted 10 years, and for Canon it would encourage us to keep buying EF lenses.
> 
> To save costs and tilt the feature set in favour of a camera closer to what we would expect in a 7DIII, they could leave out all but the most basic of video features, whatever those are, just 1080 22.1 frames, 1.45 cropped, whatever, who cares. There are plenty of other options for those that want high-tech video that many don't need or want.
> 
> ...



Well, compared to the original 7D, the 7D Mark II is already the robust camera you describe. It's an entirely different class of camera than the original 7D.

If Canon does not introduce a 7D Mark III (which by definition would be a DSLR - any mirrorless replacement for the 7D Mark II would not be a "Mark" anything) I'm sure there are many 7D Mark II users that will continue to use then until they give up the ghost and are no longer repairable.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> According to specs speculated, it looks to be more in a 7D territory, than it ever was in the 80D territory - dual digic, dual card slot? IIRC never was the case with the xxD line. Weather sealing should be imo OK. Wonder about the joystick. Maybe Canon is trying to create kind of Nikon 500/850 universal soldier.
> 
> But - if new 90D does not kind of replace 7DII, I wonder what data Canon had, to give-up on what many ppl might think as a successful model. For me, a bit surprising ...



I'm surprised by both Canon's and Nikon's decisions to abandon the 7D Mark III and the D500 replacement, respectively. Apparently they both think the future of such cameras is in the new mirrorless mounts.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

Joules said:


> Out of curiosity, is there anything out there that shows just how much worse the 80D is at handling bad weather than the 7D II? As I don't have any truly weather sealed lenses (Sigma 150-600mm C has a rubber gasget at least) and no interest in getting wet myself, I only used my 80D in drizzle. But I did that with my T3i as well without issues, and that had no sealing at all.
> 
> Seeing how well the EOS R handled the recent weather sealing test despite having pretty minimalistic sealing according to the lens rentals disassembly got me wondering.
> 
> ...



By most accounts from those that have actually used both, the D500 seems to have a slightly better AF system than the 7D Mark II. I've not shot with a D500.

The 7D Mark II *definitely* has a better, more configurable AF system than the 80D. I have shot with both of them.

The reason you don't hear folks complaining about the 80D AF system compared to the Nikon D5600 or D7500 is because AF performance is not usually one of the most important features to typical 80D or D7500 buyers.


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 9, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Zero.
> 
> Because the lugs on the R mount extend more than 2mm behind the flange, and the throat diameter of the R mount is larger than the throat diameter of the EF-M mount, that is physically impossible. The lugs of an R lens would hit the mounting flange on an EF-M camera before the lens was far enough back for the flange on the R lens to be only 2mm in front of the flange on the EF-M camera.



What? Are you saying, that it is not technologically solvable to offer EOS-R with an APS-C chip? Any such idea has imo nothing to do with an M mount and its parameters. And that's what I understand wsmith96 was asking for - to break the compatibilty with an EOS-M and make it a history ....


----------



## 3kramd5 (Aug 9, 2019)

Trey T said:


> of course! what did you assumed?


I didn’t assume; I observed that you wish the DSLR line to fail.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Aug 9, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Are you typically shooting below ISO 400? If not, you might be surprised that the 7D Mark II sensor outperforms the 80D above about ISO 800.



I can shoot at anything all the way up to iso 2000 and get keepers. I’ve read that is the case but one thing I’ve noticed is the quality of colours from the 80D sensor. Processed shots still look nicer to me from the 80D! 

Here’s an example of an iso 2000 shot, the file size had to be reduced to upload it here too!


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## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

Memirsbrunnr said:


> If it has the sports specs equal or slightly better than an 7D mII combined with on improved 80D, I will get one. and postpone going for a eos R and get the eos R II when it comes out.



Which is precisely why Canon will not give you the option of a 90D that is an improvement over the 7D mark II for sports. We're already pretty sure the 90D will only have a marginally updated version of the 80D's 45-point AF system, rather than an update of the 7D Mark II's more configurable 65-point (all cross-type) AF system.

They want to sell R lenses now, not later.

Most shooters such as you already have plenty of EF lenses in your bag. Canon seems convinced that as soon as DSLR shooters buy an R body, they'll start replacing their EF glass with R glass en masse.


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## Trey T (Aug 9, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> I didn’t assume; I observed that you wish the DSLR line to fail.


What did I say that make you observed that I hope it will "fail" (your word, not mine) w/ its DSLR line?


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 9, 2019)

Trey T said:


> What did I say that make you observed that I hope it will "fail" (your word, not mine)?



“I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.”

One might be able to claim a difference in degree between “flop and fail,” but not when qualified with the second half of your hope.


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## Trey T (Aug 9, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> “I hope this 90D will be a major flop for Canon, forcing them to create a mirrorless equivalent immediately.”
> 
> One might be able to complain a difference in degree between “flop and fail,” but not when qualified with the second half of your hope.


If you hear the truth, by me articulating it, would you still accept that you're wrong, or at least listen?


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 9, 2019)

Trey T said:


> If you hear the truth, by me articulating it, would you still accept that you're wrong?



Of course, I have no problem accepting and admitting to faults. 

If you can articulate how a product which is such a market flop that it forces the company to immediately pivot to another product isn’t a “failure,” I'm happy to say I’m wrong.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 9, 2019)

neo302 said:


> I’m providing feedback around important features I’m looking for. I want to buy Canon, but won’t if they don’t provide what I need. You obviously don't appear to care what people are looking for or helping Canon profits. I’m not a sheep.


You’re providing feedback to other users on features important _to you_, and you’re not providing it to anyone who can act on your feedback. In regard to the cameras supposedly being announced this month, your feedback is irrelevant since it’s far too late to change anything about them. 

Canon doesn’t really care if you don’t buy Canon, you’re one person. Canon has a long history of making cameras that the majority of ILC buyers want to purchase. They’ve done so successfully for >16 years without your feedback.

I can’t speak for others, but I’m not especially concerned about Canon’s profit. It’s solid enough that there’s no worry about them exiting the ILC market. Regardless, as an individual you are essentially irrelevant to their profit. 

It’s good to know you’re not ovine. Otherwise I’d be quite curious about a keyboard that works for hooves.


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## Hector1970 (Aug 9, 2019)

tron said:


> Aren't 10fps enough? I use my 7DII at 8 fps max in order to prolong continuous shooting time.


No for me not enough for sport. In fast moving sports it can be difference between capturing something and not
Yes the number of photos is a pain but worth it if you capture that moment.
The pro capture feature that Olympus have would be very useful on a mirrorless high FPS from Canon.


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## unfocused (Aug 9, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Which is precisely why Canon will not give you the option of a 90D that is an improvement over the 7D mark II for sports. We're already pretty sure the 90D will only have a marginally updated version of the 80D's 45-point AF system, rather than an update of the 7D Mark II's more configurable 65-point (all cross-type) AF system.
> 
> They want to sell R lenses now, not later.
> 
> Most shooters such as you already have plenty of EF lenses in your bag. Canon seems convinced that as soon as DSLR shooters buy an R body, they'll start replacing their EF glass with R glass en masse.


Wow! That’s a whole lot of speculation without any real knowledge. Canon is holding back on features for an APS-C DSLR because they think that will cause customers to rush out and buy a full frame mirror less camera and a slew of lenses all of which would require an investment of several multiples more than the DSLR. 

Yeah I’m sure that’s canon’s strategy.


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## masterpix (Aug 9, 2019)

Trey T said:


> For some of us that uses DSLR to shoot video more than photos, are you saying that we can't demand for mirrorless? I mean, after all, when shooting video, it's practically a mirrorless device to capture the video. So why not push it a bit further and demand for the removal of the mirror?


Well, that brings up the long dispute of "why shoot video with a DSLR when you have a special video canera" such as the C200? Which is, in more than once sense a mirrirless camera.

By the way, I had a differnt idea, why not a "selective" mirror on the DSLR, such mirroers are mede so when you put them in a specific charge, they become morror and when you don't they are blank. I think that this can be a good solution, though never tried it myfelf


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## LensFungus (Aug 9, 2019)

I'd like to point out that if the 90D for whatever reason becomes a flop at specs, Canon will do nothing because they don't care. I'd like to point out that if the 90D for whatever reason becomes a flop at sales, Canon will just lower the price a little bit faster than they intended to do. There is no reality where Canon will give us a mirrorless 90D sooner.


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## mpb001 (Aug 9, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> More robust than the SL1 does not necessarily mean as robust as the 7D Mark II.


Yes, that’s true, especially if the 90D is all polycarbonate. Maybe it will be something like a mix of some metal and some polycarbonate, like Nikon does with some models. I guess we will see shortly.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> What? Are you saying, that it is not technologically solvable to offer EOS-R with an APS-C chip? Any such idea has imo nothing to do with an M mount and its parameters. And that's what I understand wsmith96 was asking for - to break the compatibilty with an EOS-M and make it a history ....



No. I'm saying the geometry of both the EF-M mount and the R mount mean a 2mm thick adapter without optics is physically impossible.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> I can shoot at anything all the way up to iso 2000 and get keepers. I’ve read that is the case but one thing I’ve noticed is the quality of colours from the 80D sensor. Processed shots still look nicer to me from the 80D!
> 
> Here’s an example of an iso 2000 shot, the file size had to be reduced to upload it here too!



I'm pretty sure no one has said you can't get any keepers with an 80D. What we have been saying is that overall, the 7D Mark II is more optimized as a sports/action/wildlife camera than the 80D while also acknowledging that the 80D is also better at some other tasks.

Beyond that, anyone who uses a Canon DSLR at one of the "+1/3 stop" ISO settings (i.e 125, 250, 500, 1000, 2000) obviously doesn't understand how Canon artificially pull/pushes non full-stop ISOs. When using ISO 2000, for instance, the sensor is using analog amplification for ISO 1600, then digitally pushing exposure by 1/3 stop _after_ ADC, which also pushes all of the noise by 1/3 stop. As a result, ISO 3200 is about as clean with Canon sensors as ISO 2000 is. In fact, under typical conditions ISO 1250 can be cleaner than ISO 125! Shooting at "+1/3 stop" ISO settings is the equivalent of shooting at the next lower full stop ISO and exposing to the left by 1/3 stop. Shooting at -1/3 stop ISO settings (e.g. 160, 320, 640, 1250, etc.) is the equivalent of shooting at the next highest full ISO setting and shooting 1/3 stop to the right.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 9, 2019)

snappy604 said:


> first off.. that's a shitty assumption "Please stop repeating what the youTube sensationalist spew in order to generate more clicks without actually doing your own homework." . Everything I said was 100% my experience, I have had this for a few years now. I also had a 7D mk1 for 6+ yrs. The comment was against a 7D mk1... as I indicated and you mis-read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can claim you were talking to another user here, but the (same) comment you quote (twice) above was in reply to a comment you made that was a direct reply to a comment I made comparing the 7D Mark II to the 80D. More than once in your reply you said that the 7D Mark II was not as much of an improvement over the 7D as the 80D was an improvement over the 7D.


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## Jasonmc89 (Aug 9, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> I'm pretty sure no one has said you can't get any keepers with an 80D. What we have been saying is that overall, the 7D Mark II is more optimized as a sports/action/wildlife camera than the 80D while also acknowledging that the 80D is also better at some other tasks.



I completely agree on the sports/action front but I thought we were talking about ISO.


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## snappy604 (Aug 10, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> You can claim you were talking to another user here, but the (same) comment you quote (twice) above was in reply to a comment you made that was a direct reply to a comment I made comparing the 7D Mark II to the 80D.


you really need to learn to read.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 10, 2019)

snappy604 said:


> you really need to learn to read.



Based on the maturity level displayed in your posts, I was doing 10,000 pages of collateral reading a semester in grad school a decade before you were born.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 10, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> I completely agree on the sports/action front but I thought we were talking about ISO.



We are.


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## Jasonmc89 (Aug 10, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> We are.
> 
> View attachment 185959



N


Michael Clark said:


> We are.
> 
> View attachment 185959



The difference in DR between the two models isn’t really noticeable in real world photographs. Like I said, the quality of the colours from the 80D files when you have to increase the exposure or push the shadows is better. I prefer the files from the 80D.


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## Durf (Aug 10, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> I can shoot at anything all the way up to iso 2000 and get keepers. I’ve read that is the case but one thing I’ve noticed is the quality of colours from the 80D sensor. Processed shots still look nicer to me from the 80D!
> 
> Here’s an example of an iso 2000 shot, the file size had to be reduced to upload it here too!



With my 80D noise becomes a major issue at ISO's above 1250, and even at ISO 1250 there's quite a lot of noise in most of my shots. I can clean the images up quite well at ISO 1250 but anything over that becomes a major task in post. ISO 2000 on my 80D is basically unusable. (I'm shooting in the woods all the time and dealing with major highlights and shadows in each image also). 
I've noticed if I'm shooting birds or airplanes in low light with the sky as a background, shots at ISO 2000 are sometimes usable/savable.
I've been heavily using my 80D since it was released in 2016, I pretty much know every trick/setting with it to get the most out of it. 
Regardless, some of the best wildlife shots I've ever got has been with the 80D.....


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## dtaylor (Aug 10, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The only place the 80D has better sensor performance (IQ/DR/etc.) is below ISO 400. That's not where most sports/action/wildlife photographers live. Above ISO 800 the 7D Mark II has better DR and, more importantly for low light/high ISO performance, significantly better S/N ratio.



Out of curiosity I used the DPReview comparison tool to compare high ISO RAWs from both, and I honestly can't find a meaningful difference. Perhaps there's a DxO graph that says there should be a difference, but it's not one I could pick out of randomly shuffled prints.

Then again, I don't see much difference between any of the latest APS-C sensors with the exception of Fuji. The real jump in high ISO comes from going to FF, with Fuji crop looking like it's in between a typical crop and typical FF sensor.

Sensors have been pretty efficient at capturing and counting photons for a while now. For a given format (given sensor size), I would not expect any major gains in high ISO. I don't think the coming 90D or M6 II will 'blow away' either the 7D2 or 80D in terms of high ISO. If you're pushing their limits now, then go FF.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 10, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Out of curiosity I used the DPReview comparison tool to compare high ISO RAWs from both, and I honestly can't find a meaningful difference. Perhaps there's a DxO graph that says there should be a difference, but it's not one I could pick out of randomly shuffled prints.



Yah, there’s a significant difference between ‘measurable’ and ‘visible’.


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## snappy604 (Aug 10, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Based on the maturity level displayed in your posts, I was doing 10,000 pages of collateral reading a semester in grad school a decade before you were born.



you continue to display that maturity well...


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 10, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Yah, there’s a significant difference between ‘measurable’ and ‘visible’.


Yup. Hence why the whole Sony fanboy arguments based around DR are so much tripe. You notice a meaningful difference between a mediocre crop sensor(such as the 7d2 has compared to newer generation sensors) and a top of the line new gen FF sensor because you are looking at 3 stops. Current gen FF sensors are within a stop or so and in the real world you see very little difference in the hands of a capable photographer


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## EduPortas (Aug 10, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> What makes you think it’s a step down?



The name.


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## EduPortas (Aug 10, 2019)

mpb001 said:


> How do you know using a 90D would be a step down without knowing the true specs yet? My hunch is it will have much better DR than a 7D as well as other improved features, especially if Canon is considering making the 90D an amalgamation of an 80D and 7DII.



It's a step up for 80D users, but 7DM2 owners are a completely different set of buyers.

If Canon intend to merge both series they would be wise to call this model by a completely new nomenclature.

But they won't, because a 7D Mark III *will* come out for Tokyo 2020 Olympiad. If it does not, I'll eat my shoe.


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## EduPortas (Aug 10, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Short of putting a hose on them I can't give you a demo but the 7d2 is sealed to the 1d level. I am not sure exactly what level the 80d is but I would guess around the 6d level. So third tier. But there are more things than just weather sealing to robustness. More metal, less plastic. Everything inside built just that little bit stronger. All components that bit better quality. These are the areas I imagine the 90d will fall short.
> It will absolutely be good enough for most people though. Especially enthusiasts. Not sure how many pros will get it as a serious second body



This is spot on. It's very difficult to actually explain why the 7D series is so beloved to someone who has never handled one.

There's a very distinct difference between the 80D and the 7DM2. It's not just specs. It feels better and respondes quicker. Everything is exactly where you need it to be. No fluff. It just shoots and makes your job easier (two card slots helps a lot). 

One often overlooked fact about the 7Dm2: it has a special shutter mechanism shared only with the 1D series, according to Imaging Resource. This results in less vibration and a longer shutter life.


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## Otara (Aug 10, 2019)

Not everyone who has a 7D2 has loved it over the 80D. I liked the tilt screen and sensor of the 80D and its better video. If it had the 7D2's AF options, Id probably have preferred it overall. Even the expanded AF would probably been enough.

Will be very interesting to see the balance with the 90D.


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 10, 2019)

Otara said:


> Not everyone who has a 7D2 has loved it over the 80D. I liked the tilt screen and sensor of the 80D and its better video. If it had the 7D2's AF options, Id probably have preferred it overall. Even the expanded AF would probably been enough.
> 
> Will be very interesting to see the balance with the 90D.


If you bought the 7d2 as a video camera I'd say you bought wrong. If you haven't and are just referring to your final choice being the 80d then no surprises there. None of us are talking about the 7d2 as a video camera. It isn't. We are talking about it as a 7d2 and why the 90d will be a step down from it in it's capacity as a pro aps-c action stills camera.


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## Otara (Aug 10, 2019)

I had both at the same time, till the 80D died as I described earlier, still have the 7D2. Predominantly stills, but like the all rounder aspect of video as well.

Your step down isnt everyones, it depends on what you liked about it.


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 10, 2019)

Otara said:


> I had both at the same time, till the 80D died as I described earlier, still have the 7D2. Predominantly stills, but like the all rounder aspect of video as well.
> 
> Your step down isnt everyones, it depends on what you liked about it.


Obviously. Which is why everyone has been saying it will be a step down in some aspects. Not all. But there is no way it can be considered a replacement for a 7d2 as it cannot do what a 7d2 can in respect to durability. It can for an 80d however. Ergo it is a step down from a 7d2 overall and a step up from an 80d overall.


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## Jasonmc89 (Aug 10, 2019)

Durf said:


> With my 80D noise becomes a major issue at ISO's above 1250, and even at ISO 1250 there's quite a lot of noise in most of my shots. I can clean the images up quite well at ISO 1250 but anything over that becomes a major task in post. ISO 2000 on my 80D is basically unusable. (I'm shooting in the woods all the time and dealing with major highlights and shadows in each image also).
> I've noticed if I'm shooting birds or airplanes in low light with the sky as a background, shots at ISO 2000 are sometimes usable/savable.
> I've been heavily using my 80D since it was released in 2016, I pretty much know every trick/setting with it to get the most out of it.
> Regardless, some of the best wildlife shots I've ever got has been with the 80D.....



I agree, with the harshest of shadows and highlights it will struggle. Nail the exposure in camera (no so easy in forests, I know!) though and you can push the iso a lot more!


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## -pekr- (Aug 10, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> It's a step up for 80D users, but 7DM2 owners are a completely different set of buyers.
> 
> If Canon intend to merge both series they would be wise to call this model by a completely new nomenclature.
> 
> But they won't, because a 7D Mark III *will* come out for Tokyo 2020 Olympiad. If it does not, I'll eat my shoe.



If 7D III will come as you suggest, then 90D specs are unprecedented in terms of the xxD line of cameras imo - dual slots, dual Digic? But who knows, maybe Canon wants to more differentiate 77D to 90D lines. What I expect (not that it matters) is, that there is not going to be a 7D III as we know it, but later on, there is going to be high performance R camera instead. On the other hand and according to rumours, 1D III seems to be planned, so who knows, maybe even the 7D III gets released in the end.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 10, 2019)

Can I just quickly share my view on the "7 III to be or not not be" issue....

assuming Canon solved the sensor readout speed issue (there are indications this has been solved), then a MILC 51.2MP FF Canon R camera at @10fps would be equivalent to what 7D II offers in terms of speed and resolution.. if so, then a weather proofed to the level of 5D body, FF R camera can serve the 7D II purpose with certain limitations around: battery life, EVF instead of OVF (well, tough luck really, we have to adopt..), with added benefits of Eye AF, better tracking (potentially, not in current Canon implementation - which is a big one for a wildlife / sport shooters), live histogram, and so on and so forth).. so.. due to higher readout speed capabilities, the high frame rate feature previously available in either APS-C format or a lower resolution FF there is a clear use case for a universal semi-pro 50-ish MP FF camera with either 10-20 FPS crop readout mode or 10-12-ish FPS in a FF read out mode.
I dare to say, that due to Canon sensor technology, advancements and APS-C vs FF sensor price convergence, the price / performance advantage of high FPS semi-pro camera like 7D II vs FF 5Ds/R is no longer the case.


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## Otara (Aug 10, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Obviously. Which is why everyone has been saying it will be a step down in some aspects. Not all. But there is no way it can be considered a replacement for a 7d2 as it cannot do what a 7d2 can in respect to durability. It can for an 80d however. Ergo it is a step down from a 7d2 overall and a step up from an 80d overall.


 
Well it will be a potential replacement for me, and I think Ive done some fairly extensive practical testing when it comes to durability with both. But I respect that for you the build of the 7D2 is a significant factor, and that it is presumably irritating that this has a fair chance of being deprioritised with this next model.


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 10, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Can I just quickly share my view on the "7 III to be or not not be" issue....
> 
> assuming Canon solved the sensor readout speed issue (there are indications this has been solved), then a MILC 51.2MP FF Canon R camera at @10fps would be equivalent to what 7D II offers in terms of speed and resolution.. if so, then a weather proofed to the level of 5D body, FF R camera can serve the 7D II purpose with certain limitations around: battery life, EVF instead of OVF (well, tough luck really, we have to adopt..), with added benefits of Eye AF, better tracking (potentially, not in current Canon implementation - which is a big one for a wildlife / sport shooters), live histogram, and so on and so forth).. so.. due to higher readout speed capabilities, the high frame rate feature previously available in either APS-C format or a lower resolution FF there is a clear use case for a universal semi-pro 50-ish MP FF camera with either 10-20 FPS crop readout mode or 10-12-ish FPS in a FF read out mode.
> I dare to say, that due to Canon sensor technology, advancements and APS-C vs FF sensor price convergence, the price / performance advantage of high FPS semi-pro camera like 7D II vs FF 5Ds/R is no longer the case.



So the basic idea might be to have enough high resolution FF chip and allow something like a crop mode (reading-out just a part of the frame), hence reaching even higher read-outs (fps)?

Such scenario might actually work and imo is more than probable, if new Canon sensor tech is coming and if it fulfils those needs. It is more than probable, due to some other factors:

1) I don't think 7D III is probable in an M mount form, due to the ergonomy ppl are expecting, unless Canon would decide to make the body bigger, which then denies an overal M advantage.

2) APS-C in an R body - I think it is possible, but most think that it is not probable scenario and I can agree, that it might not happen too.

3) 90D being a merge of xxD and 7D lines is a possibility, but what about the price? If it is going to be more expensive, than historically xxD line was, ppl might refrain from an upgrade of their xxD bodies. If it is cheaper than 7D line was, Canon would lose some money here.

So yes, high megapixel, high performance R body might be an answer. OTOH - the same could be said about the 1DX III - rumours are, that it is still going to be a DSLR, so who really knows what's the answer for a 7DII replacement .....


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## SecureGSM (Aug 10, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> So the basic idea might be to have enough high resolution FF chip and allow *something like a crop mode* (reading-out just a part of the frame), hence reaching even higher read-outs (fps)?
> 
> Such scenario might actually work and imo is more than probable, if new Canon sensor tech is coming and if it fulfils those needs. It is more than probable, due to some other factors:
> 
> ...



... *something like a crop mode:* is already available.. this is my point. an EF-S lens attached to Canon R via EF-to RF adaptor being recognised and camera sets itself in "Crop" mode. so.. 50-ish MP FF camera body with faster readout in FF or even just crop mode is all you need
1. you are correct.
2. not happening - FF R system body in a crop mode instead.. please see above.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Aug 10, 2019)

Otara said:


> Well it will be a potential replacement for me, and I think Ive done some fairly extensive practical testing when it comes to durability with both. But I respect that for you the build of the 7D2 is a significant factor, and that it is presumably irritating that this has a fair chance of being deprioritised with this next model.


Very irritating. But there is no way they can keep the price down and specs up without sacrificing build quality.


----------



## haggie (Aug 10, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> You're missing the point. Originally the 1D series was both: 1D for action, 1Ds for high resolution landscape/studio. Canon eventually made the cheaper 5D series the landscape/studio camera.
> 
> The post I was responding to claimed that Canon would never make a 90D good enough to serve as a 7D mark III because Canon would never do 'something like that', make a cheaper series replace a more expensive one. But they have. And let us not forget that the xxD series was once everything people came to expect the 7D series to be: tough sealed magnesium bodies, action orientated, etc. Canon introduced the 7D so that they had room to make the xxD series more 'prosumer' orientated. Who is to say they aren't merging the lines again and the xxD won't be every bit as tough as the 7Ds were?
> 
> ...



Apparently you are missing your own point, dear dtaylor.

I wrote "_You cannot realistically expect that Canon will deliver a camera named *xx*D and priced at around USD 1400.00 to be *as good an action camera *as a camera from the *x*D-series_..." and then you replied with a comparison about a landscapeing/studio camera (5D), derived from an action camera (1D). 

Apparently you also missed that I explicitly wrote about action photography, not the landscaping/studio that you introduced and based your wrong conclusion on. 
But your comparison does show something that we can use for our expectations of the 90D as an action camera: just as the 5D is no better action camera than the 1D (your comparison, not mine), so will the 90D not be a better action camera than the 7D Mk II. 

I really do not see why you want to argue that statement by introducing irrelevant comparisons and misrepresenting the specifics of what I wrote. 
And also, I never said Canon could not make the 90D to be a good all-round camera; in fact I wrote that I expected the opposite to be the case .........

So once again, especially for you I will repeat what I wrote: 
the 90D will never match the 7D Mk II as an action camera, let alone that the 90D will be an improvement on the 7D Mk II for action photography.

PM To refresh your memory, I wrote that in reply to an earlier post that expected the same from the 90D and drawing the conclusion "_I'll stick with my 7DM2 for as long as I can_".


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## blackcoffee17 (Aug 10, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Can I just quickly share my view on the "7 III to be or not not be" issue....
> 
> assuming Canon solved the sensor readout speed issue (there are indications this has been solved), then a MILC 51.2MP FF Canon R camera at @10fps would be equivalent to what 7D II offers in terms of speed and resolution.. if so, then a weather proofed to the level of 5D body, FF R camera can serve the 7D II purpose with certain limitations around: battery life, EVF instead of OVF (well, tough luck really, we have to adopt..), with added benefits of Eye AF, better tracking (potentially, not in current Canon implementation - which is a big one for a wildlife / sport shooters), live histogram, and so on and so forth).. so.. due to higher readout speed capabilities, the high frame rate feature previously available in either APS-C format or a lower resolution FF there is a clear use case for a universal semi-pro 50-ish MP FF camera with either 10-20 FPS crop readout mode or 10-12-ish FPS in a FF read out mode.
> I dare to say, that due to Canon sensor technology, advancements and APS-C vs FF sensor price convergence, the price / performance advantage of high FPS semi-pro camera like 7D II vs FF 5Ds/R is no longer the case.



A FF 51.2MP FF R camera with 10fps will be way out of the 7D's price range, i would say more than double. One of the main selling points of the 7D was that you got almost a mini 1DX for less than third of the price.


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## SecureGSM (Aug 10, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> A FF 51.2MP FF R camera with 10fps will be way out of the 7D's price range, i would say more than double. One of the main selling points of the 7D was that you got almost a mini 1DX for less than third of the price.


yep, it may be in US$2500+ territory. but previously was available in FF at 1D level only. how much was that? you know, right..
so, my point is: price is converging.. not much of a difference as in 7D II vs 1Dx II. as per above.


----------



## neo302 (Aug 10, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> You’re providing feedback to other users on features important _to you_, and you’re not providing it to anyone who can act on your feedback. In regard to the cameras supposedly being announced this month, your feedback is irrelevant since it’s far too late to change anything about them.
> 
> Canon doesn’t really care if you don’t buy Canon, you’re one person. Canon has a long history of making cameras that the majority of ILC buyers want to purchase. They’ve done so successfully for >16 years without your feedback.
> 
> ...


Funny at the reaction from wanting clean hdmi out is. I guess I’m the only one that wants it and anyone else that does is just one person that Canon doesn’t care about. If that is the mentality that you allegedly have insight to, I really don’t feel good about that hubris mentality which has led to the decline of major corporations over time.


----------



## EduPortas (Aug 10, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> If you bought the 7d2 as a video camera I'd say you bought wrong. If you haven't and are just referring to your final choice being the 80d then no surprises there. None of us are talking about the 7d2 as a video camera. It isn't. We are talking about it as a 7d2 and why the 90d will be a step down from it in it's capacity as a pro aps-c action stills camera.



And yet it's still a decent video machine thanks to its DPAF system.
Pair it with a 18-135 STM lens and Canon's own power zoom add-on and you've got a nice setup.


----------



## Architect1776 (Aug 10, 2019)

neo302 said:


> 90D better have clean HDMI out



I believe so. They got the laundry working again.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Aug 10, 2019)

Everybody seems to be forgetting that the 90D is rumoured to have 2 digics. Doesn’t sound like a normal 80D upgrade to me. We’ll see soon enough..


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 10, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Everybody seems to be forgetting that the 90D is rumoured to have 2 digics. Doesn’t sound like a normal 80D upgrade to me. We’ll see soon enough..


It seems to me it was mentioned 12 posts ago.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 10, 2019)

haggie said:


> I wrote "_You cannot realistically expect that Canon will deliver a camera named *xx*D and priced at around USD 1400.00 to be *as good an action camera *as a camera from the *x*D-series_..." and then you replied with a comparison about a landscapeing/studio camera (5D), derived from an action camera (1D).



Don't be obtuse. You know I was talking about the *s variant* of the 1D series.



> Apparently you also missed that I explicitly wrote about action photography, not the landscaping/studio that you introduced and based your wrong conclusion on.



The question is whether or not Canon would make a lower tier/price point body an equal or better replacement for a once upper tier/price point function. The answer is yes, they have.



> I really do not see why you want to argue that statement by introducing irrelevant comparisons and misrepresenting the specifics of what I wrote.



You're the one introducing misrepresentations.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 10, 2019)

neo302 said:


> Funny at the reaction from wanting clean hdmi out is. I guess I’m the only one that wants it and anyone else that does is just one person that Canon doesn’t care about. If that is the mentality that you allegedly have insight to, I really don’t feel good about that hubris mentality which has led to the decline of major corporations over time.


Wanting a feature is perfectly reasonable. Threatening consequences if you don’t get that feature is silly. Unless you happen to own a few million shares of CAJ, your threat is meaningless. Neither Canon nor anyone on this forum care if you buy the 90D, buy a Nikon D500, or buy a soggy piece of toast.


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## digigal (Aug 10, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> This is spot on. It's very difficult to actually explain why the 7D series is so beloved to someone who has never handled one.
> 
> There's a very distinct difference between the 80D and the 7DM2. It's not just specs. It feels better and respondes quicker. Everything is exactly where you need it to be. No fluff. It just shoots and makes your job easier (two card slots helps a lot).
> 
> One often overlooked fact about the 7Dm2: it has a special shutter mechanism shared only with the 1D series, according to Imaging Resource. This results in less vibration and a longer shutter life.



I just retired my 7DMKII to back up status, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because it has over 380,000 clicks on a shutter rated for 200,000! That camera has been to seven continents, the Arctic and Antarctic, and Africa multiple times and only had routine sensor cleaning. Best, most reliable piece of equipment I've ever owned. Bought another one a couple of months ago because I can't keep waiting forever waiting for Canon to come out with a better camera to replace it. 
Catherine


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## trounds (Aug 10, 2019)

It is very interesting reading all the coments, mostly disliking what the rumored specs of the 90D are going to be. Personally, I have multiple caneras and use the one that fits the work I'm going to do. I'm sure that Canon has done its homework and the 90D will end up being a success, even if it isn't what everyone is looking for. Reguardless of the end resulting specs, I am very excited to give this camera a try with and open mind.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 10, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Did your professional studies include any lessons on respect to others?



You think after years of spamming these forums with nonsense, the person they were addressing deserves any respect?


----------



## scyrene (Aug 10, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Wanting a feature is perfectly reasonable. Threatening consequences if you don’t get that feature is silly. Unless you happen to own a few million shares of CAJ, your threat is meaningless. Neither Canon nor anyone on this forum care if you buy the 90D, buy a Nikon D500, or buy a soggy piece of toast.



Now I want toast


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 10, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> N
> 
> 
> The difference in DR between the two models isn’t really noticeable in real world photographs. Like I said, the quality of the colours from the 80D files when you have to increase the exposure or push the shadows is better. I prefer the files from the 80D.



So is there no difference "noticeable in real world photographs" or is the 80D better "when you have to increase the exposure or push the shadows"?

Please make up your mind.

Or is that you want to deny any measurable difference that shows the 7D Mark II is slightly better than the 80D at ISOs above 400 while still maintaining that the 80D is noticeably better in processing?


Which looks better in processing is as much about the different algorithms being used for each sensor by the specific raw conversion application as it is about the sensor itself. When using Canon's _DPP 4, _I find the capabilities of the 7D Mark II every bit as good as the 80D at high ISO settings. YMMV.

Here are some "real world photographs" shot under pretty crappy lighting.

Image taken under extremely poor limited spectrum flickering lighting at a high school football stadium. ISO 3200, f/2.8, 1/800, 200mm. Shot with an EOS 7D Mark II + EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II. Processed with Canon's _DPP 4. _(Brightness +0.67; CT set at 3700, WB set at -1B, -2M; Standard PS; gamma adjusted +3, 0, 0 to crush the shadows in the background outside the stadium; Contrast -1, Shadows +1, Highlight -2 (to preserve details in white jerseys), color saturation -2; NR 8 (Lum), 10 (Chr); extensive HSL adjustments in blue and purple bands to reduce color casts on white nylon jerseys created by the limited spectrum lighting.) Cropped from 5472x3648 (3:2) to 3270x2453 (4:3)(62% diagonal linear, 40% areal).



Same stadium and camera/lens, but shot at a slightly brighter spot near the 50 yard line. ISO 3200, f/3.2, 1/500 at 200mm. Processed with Canon's _DPP 4. _(Brightness +0.33; CT set at 3700, WB set at -1B, -2M; Standard PS; gamma adjusted +3, 0, 0; Contrast -1, Shadows +1, Highlight -2 (to preserve details in white jerseys), color saturation -2; NR 8 (Lum), 10 (Chr); extensive HSL adjustments in blue and purple bands to reduce color casts on white uniform created by the limited spectrum lighting.) Cropped from 3648x5472 (2:3) to 3483x4644 (3:4)(81% areal) .



But then again, even the 7D can do pretty well at ISO 3200 with enough light. EOS 7D + 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II at 200mm. ISO 3200, f/2.8, 1/1600. Processed with Canon's _DPP 3. _I'm too lazy to reinstall DPP 3 just to look up the processing settings I used back in 2013, but I seem to remember having to pull, not push, on this one. The singer was illuminated by a bright spotlight, the rest of the stage was not and I was using slower Tv on the other members of the band. (The full sized uncropped image was too large for the limits here on CR. This is an uncropped version downsized from 3456x5184 to 1536x1024.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 10, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Yah, there’s a significant difference between ‘measurable’ and ‘visible’.



Agreed. But when someone claims one sensor is "noticeably better" than another and the measurable data shows otherwise...


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 10, 2019)

Otara said:


> I had both at the same time, till the 80D died as I described earlier, still have the 7D2. Predominantly stills, but like the all rounder aspect of video as well.
> 
> Your step down isnt everyones, it depends on what you liked about it.



Which kind of proves the point about which is more robust than the other. 

The 80D has a shutter rating of 100,000
The 7D Mark II has a shutter rating of 200,000

Additionally, the 7D Mark II has a superior AF system and a superior light meter (150,000 RGB+IR pixels in 252 zones vs. 7560 RGB+IR in 63 segments). These things are important when shooting sports/action in dim light. The color metering is critical when shooting straight to JPEG to meet tight publishing deadlines.


----------



## Otara (Aug 11, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Which kind of proves the point about which is more robust than the other.
> 
> The 80D has a shutter rating of 100,000
> The 7D Mark II has a shutter rating of 200,000
> ...



It was just luck it wasnt the 7D2 instead, you might have missed how it happened and the general point I was making. Many of the things you're listing are claimed specs vs reality. In my view they often arent so meaningful in practise. I still have to watch for the same situations with metering but overall its very reliable for either. Shutter counts are still ultimately a matter of trust and luckily are generally vast underestimates. Durability is still extremely good even with the so called flimsy 80D, but the same issues with be lethal for either.

Much of it is more about piece of mind in my view.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 11, 2019)

Otara said:


> It was just luck it wasnt the 7D2 instead, you might have missed how it happened and the general point I was making. Many of the things you're listing are claimed specs vs reality. In my view they often arent so meaningful in practise. I still have to watch for the same situations with metering but overall its very reliable for either. Shutter counts are still ultimately a matter of trust and luckily are generally vast underestimates. Durability is still extremely good even with the so called flimsy 80D, but the same issues with be lethal for either.
> 
> Much of it is more about piece of mind in my view.



You can claim it is just a spec, but here's the reality of the 80D shutter life versus the reality of the 7D Mark II shutter life. A 7D Mark II has a better chance of making it to 500,000 actuations than an 80D has of making it to 150,000.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Aug 11, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> You can claim it is just a spec, but here's the reality of the 80D shutter life versus the reality of the 7D Mark II shutter life. A 7D Mark II has a better chance of making it to 1,000,000 actuations than an 80D has of making it to 150,000.


Unless the three samples of 7D2 which made it over 500,000 made it to exactly 1,000,000, I’m not convinced the evidence supports that claim.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 11, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Unless the three samples of 7D2 which made it over 500,000 made it to exactly 1,000,000, I’m not convinced the evidence supports that claim.




I missed there were no data on the right for the bottom line.

So let's change it to a 7D Mark II has a better chance of making it to 500,000 actuations than an 80D has of making it to 150,000.


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## Otara (Aug 11, 2019)

I think that might be confusing absence of data with a finding. Theres very different sample sizes.

If you take a look at the 60D or 70D with larger samples, you see a much closer match in overall patterns to the 7D2, with the majority of failures at 10-35k, and a fair chance of some very good numbers afterwards. Still not a completely fair comparison given lots of caveats (user base, age rates, selection bias etc) but interesting.

Using that data I have a 44% chance of getting 250k-500k with a 70D and a 58% chance with a 7D2. I mean sure its measurable, but they're both pretty awesome in my view.


----------



## Lee Jay (Aug 11, 2019)

canonical said:


> nope. no viewfinder. What "we" (some of us) are waiting for is a KILLER EOS M5 II, every bit as good as a (not coming) EOS 7D III should have been. But priced at 999. ;-)



I would only be interested in that if the viewfinder were about a million times better than the ones in the R and RP. Those are just awful, compared side-by-side with my 7D Mark II. Blurry when panning, low-res, brightness doesn't match the scene, crushed blacks, blown whites - close to unusable in difficult conditions.

Oh, and I'd need at least 1,000 shots + 3 hours of viewfinder on time per battery charge.


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## dcm (Aug 11, 2019)

M6 II could be an interesting upgrade for my M3 which usually carries the 11-22. Passed on the M50 and was going to wait for the M5 II to complement my M5. May have to seriously consider this once when we know a bit more about it.


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## dtaylor (Aug 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> I would only be interested in that if the viewfinder were about a million times better than the ones in the R and RP. Those are just awful, compared side-by-side with my 7D Mark II. Blurry when panning, low-res, brightness doesn't match the scene, crushed blacks, blown whites - close to unusable in difficult conditions.
> 
> Oh, and I'd need at least 1,000 shots + 3 hours of viewfinder on time per battery charge.



This is my problem with mirrorless and why I wish Canon would put their up coming high resolution sensor in a 5Ds/5DsR mark II. I can shoot through an EVF, and in some situations even appreciate the exposure preview. But I generally prefer an OVF.

Every year EVFs are "as good as an OVF!" and then the next year there are improvements, and we hear again how "this time it really is as good!" I guess one year they might finally be right


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 11, 2019)

scyrene said:


> You think after years of spamming these forums with nonsense, the person they were addressing deserves any respect?



Spamming with nonsense? Even if your arguments might be actually wrong, it does not mean you are necessarily spamming or trolling. So yes, I actually think, that even then you are entitled for a non-arrogant response.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 11, 2019)

Otara said:


> I think that might be confusing absence of data with a finding. Theres very different sample sizes.
> 
> If you take a look at the 60D or 70D with larger samples, you see a much closer match in overall patterns to the 7D2, with the majority of failures at 10-35k, and a fair chance of some very good numbers afterwards. Still not a completely fair comparison given lots of caveats (user base, age rates, selection bias etc) but interesting.
> 
> Using that data I have a 44% chance of getting 250k-500k with a 70D and a 58% chance with a 7D2. I mean sure its measurable, but they're both pretty awesome in my view.




So again, when there is more than anecdotal evidence from a sample size of one (yourself) that shows the one you don't like is better at something than the one you do, you say it's not that significant and they're almost the same. On the other hand, if the one you like _seems to you_ to do something a little better when you use it, that's a qualitative difference. Got it.

There's a pretty significant difference between a chance something will happen 44% of the time and something will happen 58% of the time. Just ask any actuarialist. Vegas sports books make a killing out of the 4% difference between 48% and 52%.

Even with the 60D/70D, the 50% line is around 250K.
For the 7D Mark II the 50% line is between 500K-1M.

That's a big difference.

That does not mean the 60D/70D/80D are garbage. They're very good cameras that are more robust than lesser models in the Rebel line.

But in terms of durability, the 7D Mark II is in an entirely different class than the x0D series. At the time Roger Cicala tore one down in 2014, he said it was the most weather resistant camera he had come across. That would include the 1D X. That would include the 5D Mark III. That would include the 70D and 60D. He's published teardowns on all of them before he did the 7D Mark II.


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## Otara (Aug 11, 2019)

Numbers like 44 vs 58 are very meaningful if I buy a thousand units. If I buy one, the odds arent really that different in my view, and other factors matter more to me. If they're important to you, thats fine too, it really depends what scale you're using and what rating the other factors might hold, like weight or cost.

I understand that the difference in construction durability is important to you. To me they end up in the same class from a practical perspective, as I explained earlier - mostly fine in rain, dead in seawater to over-summarise. The vulnerabilities are essentially the same to me.

But Im repeating myself, so its probably just value differences or the like.


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## scyrene (Aug 11, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> Spamming with nonsense? Even if your arguments might be actually wrong, it does not mean you are necessarily spamming or trolling. So yes, I actually think, that even then you are entitled for a non-arrogant response.



Interesting how you're prepared to give a very generous pass to one of the most disruptive and least contributory members of this forum, defending or excusing years of bad behaviour, but immediately accuse others of 'arrogance'. I think it's clear where you stand.


----------



## haggie (Aug 11, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> You're the one introducing misrepresentations.



No, dtaylor, you are misrepresenting what I wrote - and clearly want to keep doing so. But in case you just don't understand:
I wrote "_You cannot realistically expect that Canon will deliver a camera named *xx*D and priced at around USD 1400.00 to be as good *an action camera *as a camera from the *x*D-series that had a higher introduction price of around USD1700,00 in 2014_?"
after the sentence "... _Do you expect the 90D to match or even surpass the 7D Mk II as an action camera_?"
and after that I used the word "action" another three more times.

Yet, you chose to take the sentence "" out of thay context of action photography and write some general remark suggesting (but not actually claiming ... clever) that the 90D could well outperform the 7D Mk II. 
I already showed that your comparison confirms my point in the situation of the 90D vs. the 7D Mk II for action photography.




dtaylor said:


> The question is whether or not Canon would make a lower tier/price point body an equal or better replacement for a once upper tier/price point function. ....


No, it was not. That was the point at hand that you introduced to misreperesentation the text I wrote for whatever reason you have.



dtaylor said:


> Don't be obtuse. You know I was talking about the *s variant* of the 1D series.


Don't be a wise guy. You could have read that I wrote about action photography, because I used the word "action" 5 (!) times in my post. That should be enough for everybody to get the context right.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 11, 2019)

haggie said:


> No, dtaylor, you are misrepresenting what I wrote - and clearly want to keep doing so. But in case you just don't understand:
> I wrote "_You cannot realistically expect that Canon will deliver a camera named *xx*D and priced at around USD 1400.00 to be as good *an action camera *as a camera from the *x*D-series that had a higher introduction price of around USD1700,00 in 2014_?"



Do you think the words _"action camera"_ are magical or something? That by merely uttering them your bald assertion becomes a fact?

Would Canon build a lower tier camera that is equal to or better than a previous higher tier camera for a particular category of photography? The answer is that *they have* in response to market conditions, and if the market dictates it *they will do so again.* They respond to the market, not to your personal _"woe is me, the sky is falling!"_ narrative. Just off the top of my head the 5D series took over studio/landscape from the 1Ds series. Go back to the film days and for a full year and a half the EOS 3 blew away the EOS 1 series for action photography. And if we get down to it, the 7D2 itself is practically a 1D IV at a far lower price point. The very camera you're crying about is itself an example of Canon doing something you claim they would never do! 

I do not know that the 90D will be the equal of the 7D2, but neither do you know that it will be the lesser. Perhaps it's time to be quiet until it is released. Then you can make your judgement based on the actual camera and not on some inane narrative you've pulled out of thin air.

I don't know which is worse: the Sony fans, or the _woe is me, Canon will never do what I want_ crowd.


----------



## neo302 (Aug 11, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Wanting a feature is perfectly reasonable. Threatening consequences if you don’t get that feature is silly. Unless you happen to own a few million shares of CAJ, your threat is meaningless. Neither Canon nor anyone on this forum care if you buy the 90D, buy a Nikon D500, or buy a soggy piece of toast.


My consequences were that I simply wouldn’t buy it which I only said after I was asked. Amused at the manipulation and the sensitivity. I also never asked if anyone cared as I surely don’t care if you or anyone cares if I buy it.


----------



## Memirsbrunnr (Aug 11, 2019)

EduPortas said:


> It's a step up for 80D users, but 7DM2 owners are a completely different set of buyers.
> 
> If Canon intend to merge both series they would be wise to call this model by a completely new nomenclature.
> 
> But they won't, because a 7D Mark III *will* come out for Tokyo 2020 Olympiad. If it does not, I'll eat my shoe.


Just in case, I would suggest to select the smallest best digestible of your pairs of shoes..


----------



## Memirsbrunnr (Aug 11, 2019)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Everybody seems to be forgetting that the 90D is rumoured to have 2 digics. Doesn’t sound like a normal 80D upgrade to me. We’ll see soon enough..


especially if it is a double 8?


----------



## Lee Jay (Aug 11, 2019)

Having read the discussion, let me chime in with that I have a 7DII at home and an 80D at work. I've done some ultra-high contrast shooting with the 80D at base ISO because of the supposed better base-ISO dynamic range, but I found that the extra, while there, wasn't usable. This is because at least my copy has a very odd sort of banding in the deep shadows where the noise level is different in different rows leading to having to clip the blacks back to about the same place I have to do so on the 7DII images. So I haven't found the 80D's extra dynamic range to be realizable.

Fortunately, base-ISO DR is something I so rarely need that I just shoot HDRs on my 7DII when I need it. At 10fps, I can literally get a 3-shot, 2 2/3 stop HDR (0, +1 1/3, -1 1/3) in 0.2 seconds. That gives me 14+ stops of actually-realizable DR quite easily. And while LR's panorama merging is quite useless, the HDR merging is decent if the steps are close enough together.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 11, 2019)

neo302 said:


> My consequences were that I simply wouldn’t buy it which I only said after I was asked. Amused at the manipulation and the sensitivity. I also never asked if anyone cared as I surely don’t care if you or anyone cares if I buy it.


That and it will be lame compared to the competition. Personally, I don’t think a lack of clean HDMI out would make a DSLR lame, but that’s probably because I don’t ever shoot video with a DSLR so I have no need to output it.


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## canonical (Aug 11, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> the 7D2 itself is practically a 1D IV at a far lower price point



sure. sensor size don't matter. lol. dream on. half-format. half-brained. half-witted. lol.


----------



## canonical (Aug 11, 2019)

scyrene said:


> the most disruptive and least contributory members of this forum,


wow, sounds impressive! seems like an achievement deserving of all the respect a town like Scyrene, Alabama can muster. lol.


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## canonical (Aug 11, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> That and it will be lame compared to the competition. Personally, I don’t think a lack of clean HDMI out would make a DSLR lame, but that’s probably because I don’t ever shoot video with a DSLR so I have no need to output it.



Canon does not care about your totally insignificant personal wishes, desires and dreams. Clean HDMI out is essential in every mirrorflapping DSLR in order to watch your insignificant stills images on your Sony TV. in 4k of course. lol.


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## stevelee (Aug 11, 2019)

I wondered about that. Since I never hook a camera up to a TV, I have been wondering why clean HDMI would be important. I occasionally shoot video, but just pop the memory card into the computer and and transfer it with the stills.

I vaguely recall that I might have hooked a camera up to Mother's TV many years ago to show her some pictures, but the connection wouldn't have been HDMI.


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## Lee Jay (Aug 11, 2019)

canonical said:


> sure. sensor size don't matter. lol. dream on. half-format. half-brained. half-witted. lol.



For numerous reasons, I prefer a 7DII over a 1DIV, and I came from full-frame.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 11, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> For numerous reasons, I prefer a 7DII over a 1DIV, and I came from full-frame.


Yes but compared to the contemporary 7D, image quality wasn’t one of them.


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## BurningPlatform (Aug 11, 2019)

canonical said:


> Canon does not care about your totally insignificant personal wishes, desires and dreams. Clean HDMI out is essential in every mirrorflapping DSLR in order to watch your insignificant stills images on your Sony TV. in 4k of course. lol.


Usually "clean HDMI out" means tnat you can output the live signal through the HDMI port to an external recorder, uncompressed, without any overlaid information. I think there are many cameras tbat can play back stills and video through HDMI to a TV without overlayed information but that is not sufficient for "clean HDMI out". Thus, it only matters if you are going to use an external HDMI recorder from the likes of Atomos or Blackmagic.


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## canonical (Aug 11, 2019)

th


BurningPlatform said:


> Usually "clean HDMI out" means tnat you can output the live signal through the HDMI port to an external recorder, uncompressed, without any overlaid information. I think there are many cameras tbat can play back stills and video through HDMI to a TV without overlayed information but that is not sufficient for "clean HDMI out". Thus, it only matters if you are going to use an external HDMI recorder from the likes of Atomos or Blackmagic.


thx. i know. but don't care at all about video stuff. i'd like to buy a compact, capable, affordable, pure stills-optimized camera without any video recording and devoid of HDMI connectors, whether they be "clean " or "dirty".


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## Ozarker (Aug 11, 2019)

drd79 said:


> Who cares? EF-M is dead, and EF is not too far behind. If they made cameras that weren't 5 years outdated the day they were released, maybe they wouldn't be hemorrhaging customers at an astonishing rate. Just food for thought...


Here's some food for thought for you: The whole got dang ILC market is hemorrhaging customers. The. Whole. Market. Yet, Canon seems to be losing less than everyone else. Sony is losing market share, BTW. Canon continues to gain.

EF-M will live on. So will EF, especially for those who do not wish to pay the thus far (except the RF 35mm) prices for high end RF L glass.

I just sold my 5D Mark III, EF 35mm f/1.4L II, EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II, EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II, and EF 135mm f/2L. All of it sold in less than 30 hours. I think I got very fair prices and it has paid for my R, RF 24-105 f/4L (sold at a profit), and RF 28-70mm f/2L, along with a new speedlight and Bowens mount 60" modifier. It may also pay for an RF 85mm f/1.2L unless I decide to wait on the RF zoom that I hope will also be f/2. Does that prove your point in any way? No.

Canon will keep making EF glass for a very long time because they are stellar lenses in their own right and are now a bargain compared to RF L glass... and adapt perfectly to the R series without a hitch. As far as your claim that Canon releases cameras that are outdated by 5 years upon release, well the market says different. Sony isn't as popular nor as magical as some of you shills like to push.

Up until about a month ago, Sony users had to buy Nikon or Canon adapters to get any lens longer than 200mm for their magic cameras. Personally, I think Canon is going to make both Sony and Nikon struggle as miserably as Ricoh Pentax in short order. When that happens, the Sony trolls will evaporate because, well, they will have finally realized they spent a lot of money on a sinking ship.


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## Ozarker (Aug 11, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> Canonical, I hope you are not an accountant by trade. Let’s look at the corresponding EBITDA numbers for imaging divisions. Shall we...


Gotta hand it to him though... it is cute how he has to keep changing his handle every couple of months, claiming there is a problem with this website that forces him to do so. Shall I screenshot the PM he sent me about that? Funny how nobody else runs into that problem. His style changes a tiny bit each time, but he's still easy to spot.


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## Ozarker (Aug 11, 2019)

jvillain said:


> Black Magic just announced their 6K pocket cinema camera with EF mount for $2500 USD. I bought my R back when people were still believing that it actually shot 4K. In fact that was the primary reason I had bought it. That will do as my stills shooter and my 80D as my back up stills shooter for the next 10 years. But with the new BM announcement I am no longer waiting for Canon to finally release a hybrid camera capable of 4K. I have very likely bought my last Canon camera.


The R doesn't shoot 4K? Hmmmm.... I wonder why it is in my menu of choices then.  Go buy what suits your needs and be happy. Nobody cares.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 11, 2019)

drd79 said:


> Who cares? EF-M is dead, and EF is not too far behind. If they made cameras that weren't 5 years outdated the day they were released, maybe they wouldn't be hemorrhaging customers at an astonishing rate. Just food for thought...


I love the way so many posters are in complete denial.

The EOS M line is the best selling MILC on the planet in several markets, who would kill that cash cow?


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## dtaylor (Aug 11, 2019)

canonical said:


> sure. sensor size don't matter. lol. dream on. half-format. half-brained. half-witted. lol.


*Is there not an age limit for posting on this forum?*

Go back in time before the 7D2 and ask haggie if the 7D series would ever have the AF or weather sealing of a 1D series camera, and I'm sure the answer would have been _Canon would never do that!_ And yet there's the 7D2 with the best weather sealing Lens Rentals ever saw and a 65pt 1-tier AF sensor.

And in this case yes, a 2014 APS-C sensor is a good match for a 2009 APS-H sensor.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 11, 2019)

canonical said:


> th
> 
> thx. i know. but don't care at all about video stuff. i'd like to buy a compact, capable, affordable, pure stills-optimized camera without any video recording and devoid of HDMI connectors, whether they be "clean " or "dirty".



It’s even full frame. You’re welcome!









Ansco Tegra Prestige 280s 35mm Film Camera


Buy Ansco Tegra Prestige 280s 35mm Film Camera featuring Built-In 28mm f/9.5 Lens, Fixed Focus, Fixed Aperture, Automatic Exposure, Built-In Flash with Red-Eye & Fill Modes, Panoramic Mode, Self-Timer, Built-In Lens Cover and Hood, Automatic Film Winding, DX Code Sensor, Requires Two AA...




www.bhphotovideo.com


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## Ozarker (Aug 11, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> It’s even full frame. You’re welcome!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a great condition Canon A-1 and a couple of Mamiya cameras I'll sell him. FF and stills optimized. The Canon even has the motor winder.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 12, 2019)

Otara said:


> Numbers like 44 vs 58 are very meaningful if I buy a thousand units. If I buy one, the odds arent really that different in my view, and other factors matter more to me. If they're important to you, thats fine too, it really depends what scale you're using and what rating the other factors might hold, like weight or cost.
> 
> I understand that the difference in construction durability is important to you. To me they end up in the same class from a practical perspective, as I explained earlier - mostly fine in rain, dead in seawater to over-summarise. The vulnerabilities are essentially the same to me.
> 
> But Im repeating myself, so its probably just value differences or the like.



Vegas loves people who think that way.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 12, 2019)

canonical said:


> sure. sensor size don't matter. lol. dream on. half-format. half-brained. half-witted. lol.



An APS-C sensor is not half the size of an APS-H sensor. It's roughly 81% in linear terms and 66% in areal terms. That's less than the comparative difference between an APS-H sensor and a FF sensor (an APS-H sensor is 77.5% the linear size of a FF sensor and 60% the areal size of a FF sensor).


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## Michael Clark (Aug 12, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Yes but compared to the contemporary 7D, image quality wasn’t one of them.



The difference is not as much as one might think. There's less than one-half stop difference in all of the measured metrics at DxO between the APS-H 1D Mark IV and the APS-C 7D Mark II until you get out to ISO 25600. Dynamic range difference is greater than S/N, TR, or CS, and it's not that big a difference:




The difference between the 1D Mark IV and the 1D X mark II is much greater than that between the 7D Mark II and the 1D Mark IV.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 12, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The difference is not as much as one might think. There's less than one-half stop difference in all of the measured metrics at DxO between the APS-H 1D Mark IV and the APS-C 7D Mark II until you get out to ISO 25600. Dynamic range difference is greater than S/N, TR, or CS, and it's not that big a difference:
> 
> View attachment 185979
> 
> ...


But you used the 7D MkII, I said compare the 1D MkIV to its contemporary, the 7D, and you have a stop of difference at 1600 and the difference just gets greater from there. From personal experience with both I know the 7D IQ was much more challenged in poor light at 1600iso than the 1D MkIV. So that single stop was very noticeable and 1600iso is hardly extreme when talking sports in poorly illuminated stadiums etc.

Comparing different generation cameras is largely pointless, sensors get better. Are current sensors better than older bigger sensors? I'd hope so! Are they good enough for any single users output? Only they can answer that.


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## Lee Jay (Aug 12, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Yes but compared to the contemporary 7D, image quality wasn’t one of them.



Actually, image quality in many of my situations was one of them.

I feel like I gave up very little since my full-frame fast medium lens choice was going to be the 24-70/2.8 and I instead got the Sigma 18-35/1.8. That 1 1/3 stop advantage mostly makes up for the sensor size difference. Also, I'm commonly focal-length-limited and the higher pixel density of the 7DII over the full-frame options (except the 5Ds) gives me more pixels on my target in those cases. Finally, one of my favorite lenses is the 8-15/4L on crop. There's no full-frame equivalent other than cropping from full-frame and, again, that often results in fewer pixels in the final image.

There are of course some situations where full-frame would provide better image quality, but in my situation those are fewer than you'd think. I know since I shot full-frame for 10 years before getting the 7DII.


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## Otara (Aug 12, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Vegas loves people who think that way.



I think its just a matter of different priorities rather than having to get into this kind of insult, but I guess we're done either way.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee Jay said:


> Actually, image quality in many of my situations was one of them.
> 
> I feel like I gave up very little since my full-frame fast medium lens choice was going to be the 24-70/2.8 and I instead got the Sigma 18-35/1.8. That 1 1/3 stop advantage mostly makes up for the sensor size difference. Also, I'm commonly focal-length-limited and the higher pixel density of the 7DII over the full-frame options (except the 5Ds) gives me more pixels on my target in those cases. Finally, one of my favorite lenses is the 8-15/4L on crop. There's no full-frame equivalent other than cropping from full-frame and, again, that often results in fewer pixels in the final image.
> 
> There are of course some situations where full-frame would provide better image quality, but in my situation those are fewer than you'd think. I know since I shot full-frame for 10 years before getting the 7DII.


And again, you are comparing the 7D MkII to the 1D MkIV, which I have pointed out isn't a relevant or fair comparison. If you were a 1D MkIV owner when the 7D MkII came out, 5 years later, then the sensor tech had moved on enough to make IQ a non issue behind the choice. 

However the differences between the IQ of the 1D MkIV and it's contemporary 7D were noticeable in 2009, the pixel density wasn't there and the Sigma 18-35/1.8 didn't exist.

What I was trying to point out was saying the APS-H sensor size wasn't that useful because a 5 year younger camera with a smaller sensor was nearly as good is kinda silly. In the height of the sensor development generation I find it more surprising that the older APS-H sensor is still measurably (though arguably not visibly) 'better' than the five year younger sensor.


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## Lee Jay (Aug 12, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> And again, you are comparing the 7D MkII to the 1D MkIV,



No, you are. I'm comparing to the available full frame options such as the 5D3, 5D4 and 1Dx.


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## styoda (Aug 12, 2019)

Trey T said:


> Can you specify how much equivalent it is to the 90D?


You'll see when they both get announced.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 12, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> But you used the 7D MkII, I said compare the 1D MkIV to its contemporary, the 7D, and you have a stop of difference at 1600 and the difference just gets greater from there. From personal experience with both I know the 7D IQ was much more challenged in poor light at 1600iso than the 1D MkIV. So that single stop was very noticeable and 1600iso is hardly extreme when talking sports in poorly illuminated stadiums etc.
> 
> Comparing different generation cameras is largely pointless, sensors get better. Are current sensors better than older bigger sensors? I'd hope so! Are they good enough for any single users output? Only they can answer that.
> 
> View attachment 185980


Your response was to a comment comparing the 1D Mark IV to the 7D Mark II, not to the original 7D. "Contemporary" in such a context can be taken to mean "current at the time this is written" and thus a reference to the 7D Mark II.

If you had wanted to be clear that you were referring to the original 7D, perhaps you should have used the phrase, "... compared to the 1D Mark IV's contemporary, the 7D's image quality..."

In which case my response would have been more along the lines of, "Who said anything about the 7D?"

You can respond all you want that it's not fair to compare the 2014 7DII to the 2009 1DIV, but that is what was being discussed: A lower tier model in 2014 was the near equal of a higher tier model from 2009.




dtaylor said:


> Do you think the words _"action camera"_ are magical or something? That by merely uttering them your bald assertion becomes a fact?
> 
> Would Canon build a lower tier camera that is equal to or better than a previous higher tier camera for a particular category of photography? The answer is that *they have* in response to market conditions, and if the market dictates it *they will do so again.* They respond to the market, not to your personal _"woe is me, the sky is falling!"_ narrative. Just off the top of my head the 5D series took over studio/landscape from the 1Ds series. Go back to the film days and for a full year and a half the EOS 3 blew away the EOS 1 series for action photography. And if we get down to it, the 7D2 itself is practically a 1D IV at a far lower price point. The very camera you're crying about is itself an example of Canon doing something you claim they would never do!






canonical said:


> sure. sensor size don't matter. lol. dream on. half-format. half-brained. half-witted. lol.






Lee Jay said:


> For numerous reasons, I prefer a 7DII over a 1DIV, and I came from full-frame.


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## Don Haines (Aug 12, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I love the way so many posters are in complete denial.
> 
> The EOS M line is the best selling MILC on the planet in several markets, who would kill that cash cow?


The answer is simple.

Because I want to pay three times as much to get a camera that is too big for my needs and will end up sitting at home while I use my phone instead.

Seriously though, for the vast bulk of the market, FF cameras and fast lenses are more than they are willing to spend, and the price/performance/size of the M cameras fits the bill perfectly.

Also, a 1DX2 and a 24-70F2.8 does not fit into the hatch of my kayak


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## dtaylor (Aug 12, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Seriously though, for the vast bulk of the market, FF cameras and fast lenses are more than they are willing to spend, and the price/performance/size of the M cameras fits the bill perfectly.



I still have the original M + 22mm + 18-55 IS. I have to admit that it is a fun, easy to carry camera which never the less produces solid 16x20 prints and even larger. The 18-55 is surprisingly good for a 'kit lens' and the 22mm...well...I wish Canon would introduce a few more fast pancake primes of that caliber.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 19, 2019)

Trey T said:


> If you hear the truth, by me articulating it, would you still accept that you're wrong, or at least listen?


Still waiting on that articulation.


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## Quirkz (Aug 19, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Then again, I don't see much difference between any of the latest APS-C sensors with the exception of Fuji. The real jump in high ISO comes from going to FF, with Fuji crop looking like it's in between a typical crop and typical FF sensor.



Im not entirely convinced by this. With my Fuji x-e3, I found that it overstated its iso compared to my canon cameras. Shooting both at identical exposures and iso resulted in the image about half a stop darker on the Fuji. Once you pushed the exposure to match the images, noise got a lot closer. Plus it seemed there was some softening of high detail as if there were always some noise reduction, even when switched off.

I wish I still had my m5 to do some comparison shots to show.


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 19, 2019)

Quirkz said:


> Im not entirely convinced by this. With my Fuji x-e3, I found that it overstated its iso compared to my canon cameras. Shooting both at identical exposures and iso resulted in the image about half a stop darker on the Fuji. Once you pushed the exposure to match the images, noise got a lot closer. Plus it seemed there was some softening of high detail as if there were always some noise reduction, even when switched off.
> 
> I wish I still had my m5 to do some comparison shots to show.


I often wonder how much of that is truly “overstating” of ISO rating and how much is variation in T-stops.


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## haggie (Aug 19, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> *Is there not an age limit for posting on this forum?*
> 
> Go back in time before the 7D2 and ask haggie if the 7D series would ever have the AF or weather sealing of a 1D series camera, and I'm sure the answer would have been _Canon would never do that!_



Kindly leave me out of your 'discissions' with others: you do not know me and your replies to my earlier post showed you are not interested either. 

That you need this forum for confirmation was already clear; now you also showed your vindictive side.


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## Quirkz (Aug 19, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> I often wonder how much of that is truly “overstating” of ISO rating and how much is variation in T-stops.



Hmmmm that’s an excellent point I’d not considered.


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