# More Analysis of the C100



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 29, 2012)

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<p><strong>What’s the world saying?

</strong>There is lots of opinion out there already about the new Canon EOS C100 entry level professional video camera. It looks like the camera will be in the $8000 range, though pricing hasn’t been officially announced yet.</p>
<p>The biggest difference I see on the surface, is the camera cannot take PL mount lenses. It looks like they’re only releasing an EF mount camera. Most initial opinions on the camera are quite positive, visit the sites below for some opinions. I’ll post more during the day as they start rolling in.</p>
<p><strong><a href="http://blog.planet5d.com/2012/08/canon-announces-new-canon-eos-c100-the-baby-brother-to-the-canon-eos-c300-and-the-canon-eos-c500/" target="_blank">Planet5D – C100 Impressions

</a></strong><em>“I think most of us will take that with a grain of salt. The “beginning filmmakers” part – many of us cannot afford an $8000 camera. Which is why the HDSLR line has made such an impact on filmmakers in the first place – it’s low-cost! While I agree this is the lowest price of the EOS line, many will quibble with the idea that this is priced for the beginning filmmaker.” <strong><a href="http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2012/08/29/canon-c100-leads-to-murky-future-for-mid-to-upper-range-video-hdslrs/" target="_blank">Visit Planet5D</a></strong></em></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.eoshd.com/content/8856/canon-launch-cinema-eos-c100" target="_blank">EOSHD – C100 Impressions

</a></strong><em>“Canon today launched the much speculated Canon C100, the budget version of the C300. Initially set for a price under the Sony FS700 (around $8000), the camera is double the price of a used FS100 but features built-in ND filters and the same sensor as the C300. The design and handling looks fantastic, it is even smaller than the C300 (by some 15%) but the major compromise is the codec which is now AVCHD at 24Mbit 4-2-0.” <strong><a href="http://www.eoshd.com/content/8856/canon-launch-cinema-eos-c100" target="_blank">Visit EOSHD</a></strong></em></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2012/08/29/canon-c100-leads-to-murky-future-for-mid-to-upper-range-video-hdslrs/" target="_blank">Vincent Laforet – C100 Impressions</a></strong>

<em>“Many may be taken aback with the idea of spending $7,999 on this camera at first. But if you stop to think about what you won’t NEED to buy – it can actually start to look like the C100 might just be a wiser investment long term. This camera comes ready to shoot. The ergonomics are great so you don’t HAVE to have a cage. You don’t need to buy an external audio recorder and synching software – this has XLR inputs (and stereo headphone jack as well as levels) with the handle.”  <strong><a href="http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2012/08/29/canon-c100-leads-to-murky-future-for-mid-to-upper-range-video-hdslrs/" target="_blank">Visit VincentLaforet</a></strong></em></p>
<p><a href="http://nofilmschool.com/2012/08/canon-shrinks-300-calls-it-c100-prices-it-at-8000/" target="_blank"><strong>No Film School – C100 Impressions</strong></a>

<em>“While it would have upset quite a few people, this camera should really have been the C300. Canon has a more costly camera at every price point than Sony, and for the same money you can get a camera that does 240fps at 1080 — instead of 60i at 1080. I think Canon is gambling on users buying or using this camera strictly for the white name etched into the front. There won’t be any PL mount lenses on this camera, as Canon is only introducing an EF mount version.” <strong><a href="http://nofilmschool.com/2012/08/canon-shrinks-300-calls-it-c100-prices-it-at-8000/" target="_blank">Visit NoFilmSchool</a></strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></em></p>
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## preppyak (Aug 29, 2012)

So, its basically more than double the price of the Black Magic, but without even some of the same features. Yeah; I see this camera getting buried by the competition.


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## pakosouthpark (Aug 29, 2012)

preppyak said:


> So, its basically more than double the price of the Black Magic, but without even some of the same features. Yeah; I see this camera getting buried by the competition.



+1 too much money..


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## Bob Howland (Aug 29, 2012)

"...the major compromise is the codec which is now AVCHD at 24Mbit 4-2-0."

And the codec that they didn't use, presumably because it was too expensive, is used in the Canon XF100, which costs $3000 but does 4-2-2.

The Canon marketing people are trying to be a little too clever for their own good. Basically, the C100, C300 and C500 are all about double the price they should be. Doesn't Canon realize that they have competition?


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## NormanBates (Aug 29, 2012)

The 422 codec is not any more expensive to implement: the encoder is the same "digic DV III" from the C300... and from the HF-R200 that sells for under $400 on amazon.

It'a a marketing decision to differenciate products.

And because of these decisions, this camera doesn't look good in its market. I'd rather get the FS700... and that's until the new breed of RAW cameras from small vendors hit the market, including S35 ones like the $8000 kineRAW, which should start shipping real soon


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## Axilrod (Aug 29, 2012)

They're taking preorders in Europe for 4999 Euro, which is a little over $6k US. But Vincent Laforet made some good points, you don't have to buy an external EVF ($950 for Zacuto), monitor ($300-$1500 depending on what you get, mine was $1200 with batteries), rods/mattebox ($600-$1200, plus at least a tripod plate to attach it to) for ND filters($150-$600 depending on which way you go), or an external audio recorder ($100-$300). Those accessories add up, once you factor that in it really isn't a bad deal. I've spent a fortune on accessories to make my 5DII/5DIII function like a video camera (way, way more than the cameras cost themselves).

And sure it may be 24mbps 4:2:0 to cards, but with a clean HDMI out you can record to an external recorder and who knows how good the footage will look using that method. And plus, 1.6x crop > 2.4 of the BMD cinema camera. I still think the BMD is a great deal for what it is, but I don't think it will hurt the sales of this much. 

I'm afraid I'd still be torn between this and the FS700, the 240fps is a very appealing feature and so is being able to upgrade to 4k in the future, then again who knows how much the Sony external recorder will set you back.


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## HurtinMinorKey (Aug 29, 2012)

I guess Canon heard the shots, but it looks too late. 

The kineraw s35 takes this camera to the woodshed.


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## peederj (Aug 29, 2012)

It's true this is an all-in-one, you just might want an external recorder for green screen work or anything where IQ is important because the internal codec is 4:2:0 and the HDMI out is 4:2:2. Given the external recorders are under $1000, and save you the hassle of a ProRes transcode, I see no reason to buy a C300 over this, unless you need the better timecode/SDI etc. I think most of the people running timecode are shooting on Alexa etc. not C300. The C500 will play to that crowd. But I think the C300 just reached EOL, unless they unlock the 4K inside it somehow.

The accessories you might have for 5d2/3 shooting are still going to be beneficial though. ND solids aren't the only useful filters, external audio recorders are better in numerous ways, etc. With an external video recorder you will want rigging to keep it at hand, with a Ninja 2 you can use it as a monitor for the focus puller or for scopes. That this offers hand-held run and gun so well is a major plus over the FS700, and it has much better rolling shutter performance than the BMC.

A lot of people would have preferred the EOS M mount so they could adapt anything but Canon is in business to make money and wants people to buy its lenses. You can still adapt manual Nikon lenses. There are 80M EF lenses in the world and Samyang has cheap cinema options now.

This is a nice camera and if it is $6,500 it's reasonable. $16,000 for a C300 is no longer reasonable at all, if it ever could be argued to be. That price was for rental houses I think. This is priced to own.


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## HurtinMinorKey (Aug 29, 2012)

Canon support now says that the HDMI output is 4:2:0 8 bit. 

weaksauce.


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## peederj (Aug 29, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> Canon support now says that the HDMI output is 4:2:0 8 bit.
> 
> weaksauce.



Link please.

(I see that is just from word-of-mouth on the EOSHD forum)

This published spec claims 4:2:2 color space, the press release only mentions 4:2:0 for the internal AVCHD recording.
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/professional_cameras/cinema_eos_cameras/eos_c100#Specifications


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## HurtinMinorKey (Aug 29, 2012)

It makes sense though. Giving it external 4:2:2 would all but bury the c300.


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## peederj (Aug 29, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> It makes sense though. Giving it external 4:2:2 would all but bury the c300.



Cannibalism is an essential nutrient for any company. Eat your own or be eaten by others.

I would say this camera is DOA if it doesn't have the external 4:2:2. That would be crippleware.


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## RGomezPhotos (Aug 29, 2012)

Planet 5D and Vincent LaForet link both link back to Vincent's blog...


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## Ed_jk (Aug 29, 2012)

Who in its right mind will get a C100 when there is a FS700 for the same price?
Why is it that almost nobody talks about the 2.4x crop on the black magic camera?? smells like voodoo.


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## HurtinMinorKey (Aug 29, 2012)

Because the fs700 is a completely different readout (It doesn't address rolling shutter like the c100 sensor does) and looks like junk in all the samples out there. It's got one trick: high fps. 

The BMC looks like more serious competition, but it's a small sensor, so people might differentiate on that.


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## DB (Aug 29, 2012)

Check out this from EOSHD site:

http://www.eoshd.com/content/8856/canon-launch-cinema-eos-c100


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## peederj (Aug 29, 2012)

Sebastian at Cinema5D was unequivocal that the HDMI out was 4:2:2 uncompressed:



> What's the difference to the C300?
> The C100 records in AVCHD, a codec that will downcompress your footage to a 4:2:0 color space. Weird to see that limitation while many other specs are the same. There is no HD-SDI out, but the hdmi-out will deliver 4:2:2 for a better image recorded to a disk recorder.



http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=12761

He usually gets this sort of news first for some reason, so with his report and the Canon website I have to believe it's 4:2:2 vs. what one guy said he heard from Canon Support. The support people might not be briefed very well for a camera that's not shipping till the end of the year.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 29, 2012)

Bob Howland said:


> "...the major compromise is the codec which is now AVCHD at 24Mbit 4-2-0."
> 
> And the codec that they didn't use, presumably because it was too expensive, is used in the Canon XF100, which costs $3000 but does 4-2-2.
> 
> The Canon marketing people are trying to be a little too clever for their own good. Basically, the C100, C300 and C500 are all about double the price they should be. Doesn't Canon realize that they have competition?



They do realize they have competition. Sadly they think it all comes from various divisions within Canon only!
Look at how many little basics they crippled out of the 5D3. So instead of it continuing the revolution, getting mad praise, flying off the shelves like crazy to film people, and cementing themselves as the leaders in the market and making themselves hard to over thrown, they play stupid little games with internal market segmentation plus get greedy. What a waste.


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## Axilrod (Aug 29, 2012)

This is from Canon's website:
Recording/Codec: 
Signal System: NTSC and PAL
Compression: MPEG-4 AVC/H.264
*Color Space: 4:2:2*
Maximum Bit Rate: 24Mbps
Canon Log Gamma: Available
File Format: AVCHD


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## Axilrod (Aug 29, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> They do realize they have competition. Sadly they think it all comes from various divisions within Canon only!
> Look at how many little basics they crippled out of the 5D3. So instead of it continuing the revolution, getting mad praise, flying off the shelves like crazy to film people, and cementing themselves as the leaders in the market and making themselves hard to over thrown, they play stupid little games with internal market segmentation plus get greedy. What a waste.



The 5D3 upgrades on the stills side were huge. Canon didn't know the 5DII was going to be as successful in the film world as it was, and now it seems like they just trying to keep the two separate. Even though the 5DII shot great video (at the time) in a lot of ways it just wasn't ideal for video at all. So why add killer video features to the 5DIII, a camera that was intended for stills? There is a huge segment of users that don't use the video features at all, so why make them pay for it? 

They realized how much demand there was for a large-sensor video camera and acted accordingly. It makes a lot more sense for them to make a camera that addresses the video users needs (C100) and another for still users (5D3) instead of making one half-assed, dual-purpose camera. They would have had to make a lot of compromises with the 5D3 to make both segments happy, so instead of making them share one camera they gave them each their own.


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## simonxu11 (Aug 29, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > "...the major compromise is the codec which is now AVCHD at 24Mbit 4-2-0."
> ...


+1


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## Videoshooter (Aug 29, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> <em>“Many may be taken aback with the idea of spending $7,999 on this camera at first. But if you stop to think about what you won’t NEED to buy – it can actually start to look like the C100 might just be a wiser investment long term. This camera comes ready to shoot. The ergonomics are great so you don’t HAVE to have a cage. You don’t need to buy an external audio recorder and synching software – this has XLR inputs (and stereo headphone jack as well as levels) with the handle.” <strong><a href=\"http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2012/08/29/canon-c100-leads-to-murky-future-for-mid-to-upper-range-video-hdslrs/\" target=\"_blank\">Visit VincentLaforet</a></strong></em></p>



I have to disagree with Vincent here. The only things I added to my kit for DSLR use were a LCD loupe and a Zoom H4n. Everything else (tripod, monopod, etc) I had already, and would need for any camcorder. 

With the C100, you still need a shoulder rig if you want to shoot handheld. Such a rig would need to be better balanced (= heavier and more expensive) than for DSLR, due to the greater weight. And thanks to the LCD design you might still need a monitor or EVF also when working with a shoulder mount. 

When shooting with larger lenses (such as a 70-200 or bigger) it's also likely you'll need rails and a lens support, becuase both the camera and the lens are too heavy for the lens mount. With DSLR's you can put heavy lenses directly on the tripod and the body can remain unsupported. With the C100, you're going to want that extra support gear.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 30, 2012)

Axilrod said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > They do realize they have competition. Sadly they think it all comes from various divisions within Canon only!
> ...



How much money would adding zebras and some focusing aids during shooting and a crop mode cost? I'd bet any extra cost for a bit better codec would be made up better sales.

And if they didn't care about 5D3 video then why 22MP?

And the video feature on DSLRs actually is pretty popular.


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## AG (Aug 30, 2012)

Hate to say this but the more i read about this camera the more i'm interested in it.

Sure it has AVCHD, only has HDMI out, 4.2.2 colour, only EF mount, 24,25,30fps and for some ungodly reason 60i. 

It still makes me want to take it out and have a shoot with it. Sure i love my 60D and 5D2+3 but i would also like something that feels more like a video camera while ergonomically feels like a DSLR.

DSLR shooters currently don't have clean HDMI out (on Canon) so this camera has a welcome change. 
Headphone monitoring (check), XLR inputs (check), reduced Moire and Aliasing (check), no more 12min limit on shooting (check). Theres 4 good reasons to buy one right there.

Sure its not as great as the C300 or C500 but then again its like comparing a 450D to a 1DX and complaining about the burst rate or lack of video. 

Each camera has its place and this looks like it could make video in a DSLR a secondary feature, to the joy of sooooooooooooo many photographers on here that hate that the 5D2 shot video at all.

I cant wait to get my hands on one and see what it can do.


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## expatinasia (Aug 30, 2012)

AG said:


> 4.2.2 colour



I read it was only 4:2:0 and I also read it is 24Mbit/sec which is not that great.

For this price tag, I think it is a very strange thing for Canon to do.

Personally I would take the XF 300 or 305 which are both cheaper than US$ 8,000 (or some other brand like JVC, Sony, Panasonic which have some nice pro level cameras coming out soon).


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## AG (Aug 30, 2012)

Some sites say 4.2.2 some say 4.2.0 we will have to wait and see.

As for the 24Mbit thats still faster than the Reds 24Mbyte.

Plus uncompressed HDMI out so thats kinda a mute point. 

Remember the 1DC was first announced as costing $15k, and can now be found for $9999. Lets hope the same thing happens with this camera, that may change people opinion slightly.


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## peederj (Aug 30, 2012)

The only thing that's certain with regard to the color space is that AVCHD only accepts 4:2:0 color space. So the internal recording is definitely only 4:2:0, which is about the only reason you'd want a C300 instead. 

The question under vigorous scrutiny right now is whether the HDMI output has 4:2:2 color or the half-resolution 4:2:0 color. If it cripples away 4:2:2 output to external recorders, I vote against this camera and Canon Cinema as a whole. If it allows 4:2:2, then there is no remaining resaon to shoot with a C300...you can get one of these, rent any add-ons you like and get back to the craft. If it doesn't offer 4:2:2 even externally, this camera is DOA in my view. EOS, as in End Of Story.


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## Babarous (Aug 30, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> Because the fs700 is a completely different readout (It doesn't address rolling shutter like the c100 sensor does) and looks like junk in all the samples out there. It's got one trick: high fps.



Does FS700 looks junk in this clip?

http://vimeo.com/groups/fs700/videos/46275632

Hello no ...

And lets not forget FS700 is "4K ready" with future firmware and recorder


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## Babarous (Aug 30, 2012)

AG said:


> Some sites say 4.2.2 some say 4.2.0 we will have to wait and see.



ACHD specs are 4.2.0. If it does do, 4.2.2, that would be through HDMI to external recorder


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## AG (Aug 30, 2012)

Babarous said:


> Does FS700 looks junk in this clip?
> 
> http://vimeo.com/groups/fs700/videos/46275632
> 
> ...



I have to say you missed the point he was making. You counter a comment that says all the FS700 is good at is slow-mo with a slow-mo clip.

Plus the 4K ready will more than likely involve buying a Sony proprietary external recorder. So you could be looking at another $5-8K on top of the cost of the camera. 

Suddenly putting it out of the ballpark for the people that would buy this C100 in the first place.


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## ssrdd (Aug 30, 2012)

4:2:0 color space for sharp, vivid images. what a louder bollocks, another failure from canon.

1080p- no 60p and further???
4-2-0 24mbit avchd??????????
4000$ ?????????
APS-C sensor?????????

canon completely lost its mind.


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## paul13walnut5 (Aug 30, 2012)

I don't shoot or display 4k.

I shoot stuff for TV and so most of the time don't even need 1080p.

For the folk who _really do_ shoot and display 4k then they'll want a better camera. You wouldn't buy a ferrari for a wee runabout in town.

I don't do compositing (alpha layer graphics from AE at most) and so this camera looks perfect for me!

Adult audio, fixed sensor glitches, nice layout and handling.

Blackmagic... forget it, I'll use my 2/3rds ENG instead.

RED... forget it. A) I don't want to be on a waiting list for B) an incomplete camera that C) will give me nothing but hassle when I get it.

C500 is overkill, was seriously considering the C300, but will take the C100, it does everything I need, it'll work out the box, will have decent support, and thats really all I need.

It will force my hand in switching finally from FCP7 to Premiere though. A good thing, ultimately.

DSLRs spoiled us with expectations, but folks have forgotton the law of diminishing returns. And folk who think this money is too exepensive for a camera have never priced a real tripod or professional microphone.

As a package the C100 looks perfectly pitched for owner operators who want large sensor shooting without the myriad DSLR caveats.


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## JasonATL (Aug 30, 2012)

For me, it all comes down to the price and how this camera's value stacks up against an FS100, which has almost all of the positives that the C100 does, except built-in ND and a built-in EF mount. I already have ND filters for use in DSLR video and a metabones adapter can be had for $500 - plus the FS100 has 50p/60p.

If the C100 has the same image quality as the C300, then it will beat out the FS100 at the same price (including adapter) in my eyes and might even justify a premium over FS100+adapter. But if the street price is USD8000, then I'll probably go with an FS100. Or, if I talk myself into spending USD8k, then the FS700 might be my choice. But, at that point, I really lose the form factor and might just decide that the 5D3 has a plenty good enough picture for me (which it currently does!).


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## transpo1 (Aug 30, 2012)

I agree with a previous poster- no 1080 60p is a huge deal breaker when thinking of buying an $8k camera. I'll stick with a 5Dii and maybe a 5Diii until something better comes out. Not a fan of the FS700 either- looks like video, not cinema.

*Take it from a fan and customer*, Canon- you need to *add value* to these products to get us to buy them. Customers are smarter than you think and know when they're being played. Differentiation between your camera models will only get you so far.

If you made a camera like the C100 but with 60p and 4:2:2 50Mbps codec, people would be more enthused to buy it and believe me, you want people to be _enthused_ about your products, not thinking about which feature they have to compromise on.


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## HurtinMinorKey (Aug 30, 2012)

transpo1 said:


> If you made a camera like the C100 but with 60p and 4:2:2 50Mbps codec, people would be more enthused to buy it and believe me, you want people to be _enthused_ about your products, not thinking about which feature they have to compromise on.



Those stats would effectively bury the c300. This would require somebody admitting a mistake in the pricing of the c300. This doesn't happen in Japanese corporate culture. No, instead they double down with another overpriced cinema camera. 

I still think the c300 is the best camera at its price or below, but I don't think the quality jump justifies the huge price premium.


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## Axilrod (Aug 30, 2012)

AG said:


> Some sites say 4.2.2 some say 4.2.0 we will have to wait and see.
> 
> As for the 24Mbit thats still faster than the Reds 24Mbyte.
> 
> ...



I agree, I think it will be in the $5k range. Pretty much everything in the Cinema EOS line has debuted lower than originally expected. The cinema primes were supposed to be $6800/each but they're available for preorder right under $5k.


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## Axilrod (Aug 30, 2012)

JasonATL said:


> For me, it all comes down to the price and how this camera's value stacks up against an FS100, which has almost all of the positives that the C100 does, except built-in ND and a built-in EF mount. I already have ND filters for use in DSLR video and a metabones adapter can be had for $500 - plus the FS100 has 50p/60p.
> 
> If the C100 has the same image quality as the C300, then it will beat out the FS100 at the same price (including adapter) in my eyes and might even justify a premium over FS100+adapter. But if the street price is USD8000, then I'll probably go with an FS100. Or, if I talk myself into spending USD8k, then the FS700 might be my choice. But, at that point, I really lose the form factor and might just decide that the 5D3 has a plenty good enough picture for me (which it currently does!).



I don't think it will be $8k, almost everything in the Cinema EOS line has ended up being cheaper than the announcement price.


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## Axilrod (Aug 30, 2012)

Videoshooter said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > I have to disagree with Vincent here. The only things I added to my kit for DSLR use were a LCD loupe and a Zoom H4n. Everything else (tripod, monopod, etc) I had already, and would need for any camcorder.
> ...


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## transpo1 (Aug 30, 2012)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > If you made a camera like the C100 but with 60p and 4:2:2 50Mbps codec, people would be more enthused to buy it and believe me, you want people to be _enthused_ about your products, not thinking about which feature they have to compromise on.
> ...



Agreed, it wouldn't happen in Japanese corporate culture. However, it hurts their brand loyalty in the long run and they need to hear that.


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## JasonATL (Sep 11, 2012)

Just noticed that B&H has put a $6500 pre-order price on the C100 in the U.S.

While not $8000, it is still a hefty premium over a Sony FS100, even after paying for an EF mount adapter.


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## jcs (Sep 12, 2012)

The C100 with the Atmos Ninja 2 looks like a solid combo providing 422 ProRes or DNxHD for ~$7500. For web/internet/TV, the 420 24Mbit H.264 via AVCHD container is sufficient (as it is with the 5D2 and 5D3).

422 via HDMI reported here: http://www.cinema5d.com/news/


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