# 7D focusing question??



## marcm1 (May 4, 2011)

I bought the camera when they first released them and also bought the 70-200 2.8 L lens non IS. I have tried micro focusing the lens but still get no sharp images from it. I also at times while taking pictures it will totally blur then after pushing the button down a couple of times it will refocus and seem to act fine. It is set up on the center focus and almost all pictures taken in manual mode. All I take is pictures of my daughters and some of their sports activites. Any ideas what I should look at doing as far as should I send it in for Canon to look at it? I have a friend who has a older 20D and it takes ALOT sharper images than this thing does. Any suggestions will help.

Thanks


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## jepicard (May 4, 2011)

Having experienced foucusing issues out of the box with a 24-70 + another friend with similar issues with a 70-200 2.8 V II, and a friend who recently sent his 7D and lenses in for servicing, cut to the chase and send in the lens and body especially if they are under warranty.

Service is remarkably fast and in the cases cited above, solved the focusing issues.

J


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## DockNorth (May 4, 2011)

I am going to assume you know your way around the camera but...before we go to far lets check. Are you pushing the button down halfway before you take a picture to give it a chance to focus on the subject? If you are doing this and the lens is still not focusing or it is possibly hunting a lot (in good light and with a stable, non-moving object to focus on) then you need to send the camera and lens back for a check and adjustment.

Manufacturers have tolerances to allow for small differences in lens/camera combinations but the allowable tolerances are very small and unless you are specifically looking for focus issues - very closely - you will not notice any problems on a set that is within tolerances.

If you are doing everything right and it is not focusing on a repeatable basis then the camera/lens have issues.


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## K3nt (May 4, 2011)

Another thing to test is to enable the full 19 AF points and shoot in Full Auto mode. Can you get any sharp images that way? It is probably a silly test but...


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## epsiloneri (May 4, 2011)

*Re: 7D focusing question??*

So many things could be wrong that it is very hard to help you in a forum short of you giving an extensive and detailed report. E.g.: Is it really AF that is poor, or is it something else? (motion blur, poor optics, too high expectations, etc.) Some things to consider:

* Is there a sharp focused point in the image that doesn't coincide with your intended location of focus?
* Are the 20D pictures actually sharper, or is it just that the pixel density of that camera is so much lower?
* Do you get sharp images if you use a tripod and focus with live view?

I'm not saying the AF isn't bad, it's just hard to judge without more info.


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## DRD photo (May 4, 2011)

I have a similar issue with my Canon 7D and a 70-200mm f4 L lens in which the lens will lock focus about 30% of the time on auto-focus. I have tried several different lighting situations and contrasting images, but the lens hunts back and forth too much and when it locks focus, it has back focused when it beeps to shoot. In manual mode trying to catch sports, or kids in action would produce blurred images because you would have to constantly move the focus ring manually to keep focus and that is not easy. The lens is under warranty so I am sending both the lens and the body in to be re-calibrated together. This is the only lens that I have had focusing issues with, but as a whole I shoot with the center point selected at the widest aperture, of if there is enough light I stop down a little to get a sharper image. oddly enough I have a sigma 150-500mm lens which I have had no focusing issues with my 7D. Hope this helps a little.


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## awinphoto (May 4, 2011)

marcm1, It may be a silly question, however what shutter speed are you shooting at. Keep in mind, with the 70-200, at 200, with no IS, the slowest you can handhold shoot is 1/200. If you are shooting indoors, it can be difficult balancing fast shutter, aperture, and iso. Also assuming you are shooting at high ISO and high shutter, what NR do you have your camera set at? In any case, do you use a supplemental flash unit to add more light or just shoot as is available light? It is easy for anyone to throw darts at the board and give advise without having a chance to be there to help you but either way, check those settings, shoot outdoors which may eliminate that low light situation JUST TO SEE if it is the lens or a camera setting. IF the lens still cant handle plenty of light and all AF settings are reset as needed, then it's the lens. If it works great outdoors or at least you can get a proper MA and good repeatable autofocus, then it's a light issue. I hope this helps


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## Admin US West (May 4, 2011)

marcm1 said:


> I bought the camera when they first released them and also bought the 70-200 2.8 L lens non IS. I have tried micro focusing the lens but still get no sharp images from it. I also at times while taking pictures it will totally blur then after pushing the button down a couple of times it will refocus and seem to act fine. It is set up on the center focus and almost all pictures taken in manual mode. All I take is pictures of my daughters and some of their sports activites. Any ideas what I should look at doing as far as should I send it in for Canon to look at it? I have a friend who has a older 20D and it takes ALOT sharper images than this thing does. Any suggestions will help.
> 
> Thanks



If I understand you correctly, You have owned the camera and lens for two years, so you know best what to expect of the lens. If your other lenses do fine, and that one has troubles, sent it in for repair.


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## marcm1 (May 4, 2011)

I do alot of cheerleading pictures of my girls and mostly all in manual and all above 500 speed, iso will vary due to lighting and aparture is usually in the 2.8 to 4 range, it's not that I have a sharp area in one spot which is due to it focusing on a wrong aboject or something it will just go totally blurred inside my window I'm looking through when I depress the button 1/2 way while trying to get it focused on where I am aiming.

But I just shot some picutres of a friend daughter for prom and used this lens and a 15-85 lens inside and outside in shadows and in light and I have never gotten since I have owned this camera a true sharp crisp picture from anything, I have messed around with the lens on my tripod and microadjusted for the best picture which is a -2 on the lens. If I need to send it off then now is the time during my off season on my girls.


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## awinphoto (May 4, 2011)

Assuming there is plenty of light that you are able to use without dropping shutter speeds, and if you cant get focus on ANY lens as you said, I would suggest sending your lenses and camera into canon for them to take a look. What focus mode do you use? What setting is your NR set at? If you cannot even micro-adjust, then I would be grasping at straws without physically seeing your camera and settings and troubleshooting in person. Hopefully canon's techs can help. Sorry to hear about your problems.


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## steven63 (May 4, 2011)

You didn't state your camera knowledge so I'm not looking to offend you but try setting the camera on shutter priority and setting your shutter to at least 1/200th for action shots. If you are shooting indoor in low light up your ISO to compensate (don't worry about the noise just try to see if you can get a focused shot). Then set it to full auto and take another photo. If those both come out blurry you've likely got a calibration issue.


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## marcm1 (May 5, 2011)

My camera knowledge is very new, this is the first dslr camera I have ever owned. I do up the ISO all the way to 6400 if needed in some lighting and sometimes it will be alot lower it depends on the light, I try to keep ISO low so to keep the noise down and play with the aperture usaully at 2.8 because it doesn't matter if the background is fuzzy because I'm shooting up close cheerleading pictures and I try not to drop below 500 shutter speed for the action shots as long as I can keep the meter in the middle at the bottom of the window. The NR is set to default I have never messed with it. I have only used my main settings and not wandered into changing any major settings in the camera so I won't mess anything up. I will look at camera tommorrow and see what the NR is set on. As before in earlyer post I usaully have just the center focus dot up because I'm trying to get one person in focus most of the time.

But even with setting it to auto I still don't get sharp pictures, they are always kind of soft as I would discribe them. I know different lenses need to have the micro adjustment set up for each lens to match it to the camera. I try to do alot of reading and look at the forum post before I attempt anything. 

I appreciate everyone's post and I hope I don't seem to stupid about this stuff just trying to learn as much as I can as I go by reading alot of stuff.

Thanks.


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## maharzan (May 5, 2011)

Hi there,

I am so much on the same path. I am very new to photography. I bought 7D more than a year back because I heard its video capability (PAL/NTSC stuff) was very good. better than 5D MkII (at least the frame rates). I was looking to have a still camera with video capability back then as I was tired to carrying 2 cameras around (Still/Video). I never owned a DSLR as well so I just jumped in, risked by money to get a 7D. Who ever thinks, a 1800$ camera will have flaws?? 

I mainly used the camera for video and occasionally took photos. I was never professional so, all I did was manual focus, adjust aperture and shutter speed to I could get the meter to 0 (recommended exposure?). I always got soft image too and I blamed myself all this time as it was very difficult to focus. I mean, even if you feel its focused in the LCD or view finder, when you look into the computer, I always saw photos were out of focus.

Recently, I bought 35mm 1.4L Canon and videos / photos were soft with this lens too. Unfortunately, I live abroad and Canon warranty has already expired. I don't know what to do. I have learnt a lot during last 2 months as it was too much why a 1800$ camera isn't giving me sharp images as I see in flickr or other forums. I have been experimenting a lot but sometimes I feel like I get sharper images and sometimes it looks like its front focusing. At least when I shoot my MBP's keyboard, when I focus on say Y key, the focus is actually on the N key. I even did MA but then I just reset it to 0. I took several pictures outside and they seem good. I will still need to experiment more and practice focusing.

Anyway, the point is, can you post pictures of what you are getting? I might also take some pictures later and post. I am not sure what to do at this point. I can't take it to Canon for sure at least not without paying another 300-500 bucks. Any pointers is every helpful.


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## maharzan (May 5, 2011)

Actually, can you do this? Get on a tripod, use 7D to picture same object and also use another camera you said, 20D and take a picture. I want to see how different they are. I am really considering getting another camera at this point. AF in 7D is complicated and even though they say its the best, who cares if a simple person cannot shoot a focused image.


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## Viggo (May 5, 2011)

Are you using Ai Servo or One shot? If Ai Servo, what's your Custom Functions set up like? For instance, many people set the Sensitivity to +2 "to make it focus faster" this will only make your AF jump around and not track the subject at all.

The other thing often done wrong is using one single AF point with no assist-points, use surrounding points and sensitivty set to -1. Allow 0.5 second to lock and start tracking.


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## maharzan (May 5, 2011)

I don't use auto focus. I am using AI Servo but all settings are default. I just tested few shots of an object and every time I hear that beep (half pressed), I take the pictures. I see that not all images are sharp. perhaps like 2 out of 5.


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2011)

maharzan said:


> I don't use auto focus. I am using AI Servo but all settings are default. I just tested few shots of an object and every time I hear that beep (half pressed), I take the pictures. I see that not all images are sharp. perhaps like 2 out of 5.



This doesn't make sense to me. How can it be that you, "don't use autofocus," but are using AI Servo, which is an autofocus mode? Also, in AI Servo mode there is no focus confirmation, so when you half press the button there should not be a beep.

Ok, looking back at a previous post:



maharzan said:


> Who ever thinks, a 1800$ camera will have flaws??



Any piece of equipment can have flaws. Sometimes there's a defect, other times the flaw is with the design, or a lack of proper understanding of the capabilities of the device.



maharzan said:


> I was never professional so, all I did was manual focus, adjust aperture and shutter speed to I could get the meter to 0 (recommended exposure?).



Honestly, that sounds like how many pros shoot - full manual exposure and manual focus. They do it successfully because they've been shooting like that for a long time (I'm certainly not a pro, but I started shooting with film SLRs in the days before autofocus was even available - automatic aperture control was the latest and greatest innovation). But shooting like that takes skill and an understanding of the limitations of your gear (more below). The automatic and semi-automatic modes do make it easier for a novice/amateur to get better images.



maharzan said:


> I always got soft image too and I blamed myself all this time as it was very difficult to focus. I mean, even if you feel its focused in the LCD or view finder, when you look into the computer, I always saw photos were out of focus.



The resolution of your computer display is much higher than the camera's LCD. The on-camera review is a bad place to judge sharpness, as only significantly misfocused images will be obvious. Note that there's a substantial difference between actively focusing (either through the viewfinder or using Live View) and reviewing an image. Actively focusing (racking back and forth and centering on the best focal plane) can be quite accurate, especially in live view. But, depending on your lens, that process might not be very accurate using the viewfinder.



maharzan said:


> Recently, I bought 35mm 1.4L Canon and videos / photos were soft with this lens too.



This is one of those limitations I mentioned. Old film cameras had focusing screens with a split screen and microprism collar to aid in manual focusing. More importantly, current cameras are geared for consumers using consumer lenses and autofocus. One problem with slow lenses (e.g. kit zoom lenses with f/5.6 max apertures) is that the viewfinder is very dim with those narrow apertures. So, camera makers use focusing screens that are microetched to result in a brighter viewfinder. That sounds good, but the consequence is that the viewfinder can only show the depth of field of ~f/2.8. So, with your 35mm f/1.4L, the real DoF is much thinner than what you're seeing in the viewfinder (i.e. something can look perfectly in focus in the viewfinder, but actually be out of focus). Live View does actually show the true DoF for fast lenses, which is why it's better to use Live View for manual focusing. For some cameras, users can change the focusing screen (for my 5DII, I have the EG-S focusing screen, which shows the true DoF of fast lenses, but then slow lenses are dark). The 7D does not have a user-replaceable focusing screen (at least, that's Canon's position, although there are 3rd party screens available, great care is needed to avoid damaging the transmissive LCD). 

Bottom line, with the 7D and a fast lens, meaning a wider max aperture than f/2.8, you're better off using a properly microadjusted autofocus, or manual focus with Live View and 10x magnification, than trying to manually focus through the viewfinder.



maharzan said:


> At least when I shoot my MBP's keyboard, when I focus on say Y key, the focus is actually on the N key. I even did MA but then I just reset it to 0. I took several pictures outside and they seem good. I will still need to experiment more and practice focusing.



Here's another area of not understanding exactly how the system works. You look in the viewfinder, put the AF point rectangle over what you want to focus on (the Y key), half-press the shutter button to AF, then take the picture. The problem is that the actual AF point on the AF sensor is larger than the little box that represents it in the viewfinder. _You_ know what feature you're trying to focus on, but the camera does not. In your example, the actual AF sensor might be covering the from the F6 key down to the N key, and from the R key to the I key horizontally. The camera is going to lock onto an area of high contrast anywhere in it's sensitive area, but in your test the whole area has highly contrasting lines (black keys with a silver surround, at least on my MBP), so the AF systems doesn't know where to lock focus.

I posted some examples of this on another forum thread, where the issue was a fast lens (135mm f/2L) lens supposedly focusing inconsistently, but in reality the lens and AF system were doing their job correctly, but the 'test' was not set up correctly (just like yours wasn't).

Hope some of that helps...


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## maharzan (May 6, 2011)

> This doesn't make sense to me. How can it be that you, "don't use autofocus," but are using AI Servo, which is an autofocus mode? Also, in AI Servo mode there is no focus confirmation, so when you half press the button there should not be a beep.



Okay, that might not have been explained in photography terms.  I am using AI Servo as I saw few people recommended that settings. But I guess I am not using it at all. I just had that settings. I am using manual focus/viewfinder and when I half press the button, if an item is in focus, I hear that beep sound and a green dot. Then I take the photo. In my last test, I found that out of 5 shots, only 2 were sharp. Its bit sad to have to shot a 5 times to get one good shot. If its that moment you want to shoot, you have a chance you miss it.

I now know that all products have flaws. I didn't know that before as I expected certain value of product to be perfect. Why bring it in the market if its flawed? Don't you think? Probably in the ideal world. 

Thank you for the examples. I will keep trying it. I am a minimalist person. I mean, focusing on a viewfinder, and clicking a picture, should be as easy as that, you know. The only problem probably is the focusing beep I get. I need to ignore that lol. I really don't like the sound of that Servo motor on auto focusing nor I really like zooming 10x focusing and clicking. Its just too much of clicking, at least when you have that few seconds to take that picture and then in day time, you don't even see that LCD screen properly.


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## maharzan (May 6, 2011)

Ok, another question. Does this happen on other bodies too? Since many people are actually saying I get sharper images in other bodies like the 20D. Wanted to know what difference there is. 

The example you posted, neuroanatomist, seems to be happening on my keyboard tests. Its not an ideal test but in real world as you say, aren't perfectly aligned. I have shoot quite some pictures and I have been really sad that few of my 'best' pictures aren't focused due to the same reason. Like I shot a spider one time and the spider wasn't focused but the web was. When viewing in the LCD it seemed focused. When see that, you don't take another picture.  Other few pictures which I like are the same. My wife on side of a statue and parts of statue are actually in focus instead of my wife. I mean its really ridiculous not being able to get that perfect focus you know.  I have been hiding the fact that I own a 7D because when people invite to take pictures, I don't want to be ashamed of not getting a sharp picture.


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## awinphoto (May 6, 2011)

maharzan said:


> Ok, another question. Does this happen on other bodies too? Since many people are actually saying I get sharper images in other bodies like the 20D. Wanted to know what difference there is.
> 
> The example you posted, neuroanatomist, seems to be happening on my keyboard tests. Its not an ideal test but in real world as you say, aren't perfectly aligned. I have shoot quite some pictures and I have been really sad that few of my 'best' pictures aren't focused due to the same reason. Like I shot a spider one time and the spider wasn't focused but the web was. When viewing in the LCD it seemed focused. When see that, you don't take another picture.  Other few pictures which I like are the same. My wife on side of a statue and parts of statue are actually in focus instead of my wife. I mean its really ridiculous not being able to get that perfect focus you know.  I have been hiding the fact that I own a 7D because when people invite to take pictures, I don't want to be ashamed of not getting a sharp picture.



There I think lies the problem... Focusing through the viewfinder on these large megapixel cameras manually and waiting for a beep, unless you got the focus on the spot focus within the focus point, it will generally get you "within the ballpark" however if you want to do manual focus, that's is why they created the live view mode with magnifications. That is probably the only way you MF with consistency. Remember, digital is getting beyond the capabilities of film and so every flaw in focus will be even more apparent. 

Your camera has a great AF system, probably the best AF system except for the 1D cameras. I would recommend you would use AF to get more consistent focusing. If the AF doesn't quite get the precision in focus, thats when micro-adjust comes into play. This isn't necessarily a camera or a lens issue, it's a user situation knowing how to get the most of the equipment. Any under focus or over focus from when you manual focus and just slightly bump the focus ring milliseconds after hearing the beep, that will cause focus issues when zoomed at 100%.


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## maharzan (May 6, 2011)

Thanks awinphoto. Looks like that will be my last option. I will keep practicing manual focus till then. I do use AF points just not that AF mode in the lens. Not many pros use AF I suppose. I used to use the Live View but it ate lot of batteries and I came to know later that many pros actually use viewfinder just like old times.  I switched to that later. If it doesn't work, well, I will just stick to Live View.


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## Admin US West (May 6, 2011)

It sounds like you have your camera set to autofocus with AI-Servo and are using the manual override to focus. Then, as soon as you half press the shutter, your autofocus takes over and changes the focus point.

Be sure you have the switch on the lens set to manual focus, mount the camera on a sturdy tripod, use liveview at 5 or 10 X, and focus on the point you want to be sharpest. You are seeing the actual image on the LCD, so what you are seeing is what you will get.


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## awinphoto (May 6, 2011)

scalesusa said:


> It sounds like you have your camera set to autofocus with AI-Servo and are using the manual override to focus. Then, as soon as you half press the shutter, your autofocus takes over and changes the focus point.
> 
> Be sure you have the switch on the lens set to manual focus, mount the camera on a sturdy tripod, use liveview at 5 or 10 X, and focus on the point you want to be sharpest. You are seeing the actual image on the LCD, so what you are seeing is what you will get.



No, what i got from his post was his lens was on MF however the AF in camera is still active, so the point(s) he has his AF set to will beep when the MF "hits" the focus point, however doing that for percise focusing is not very accurate because of the human element of not completely stopping when the beep sounds... even a fraction of a second delay from the beep sound to when your fingers stop turning the focus dial, it will show OOF even though you got the focus confirmation. 

maharzan, I'm a pro and I use AF most of the time. The only time I use manual focus, to be honest, would be product shots, or professional commercial shoots where I trust the model to hold still enough so I can get focus using live view. Even with that, with people i'm sure you know when zoomed in 10x the slightest flinch or movement within your subject can screw up your focusing. 

The 7D was praised because it was a great stride on Canon's behalf on catching up and in some reviews, beating nikons AF system on the nikon D300s. To disregard the AF all together, on this camera, would be like buying a top of the line video HD camera and shooting at SD. Plus, any mis-focus will be even more dramatized because of the high MP. Focusing in the viewfinder was a common practice with early DSLR's and film cameras, however you cant really do that anymore because of the medium.


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## neuroanatomist (May 6, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> scalesusa said:
> 
> 
> > It sounds like you have your camera set to autofocus with AI-Servo and are using the manual override to focus. Then, as soon as you half press the shutter, your autofocus takes over and changes the focus point.
> ...



I had the same initial thought as Scalesusa (and hoped the lenses being used like that had FTM, even though it's still not a good idea to manually focus while the AF motor is active). But I think you're right - MF set on the lens trumps AI Servo mode on the camera, and in that case a focus confirmation beep would sound. 

*maharzan*, I do really think you should practice with and start using autofocus. Awinphoto is correct that manual focusing is difficult to get right with current dSLRs, and as I pointed out above, the focusing screen on your 7D will not give accurate results for manual focusing in the viewfinder at apertures wider than f/2.8.


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## maharzan (May 7, 2011)

Thanks for all the posts you guys are making. Its helping me. Yesterday, I had to go shoot my cousins marriage. Like I said I am no pro, and I occasionally use my came, if not at all for some months. This time I used Auto focus fully. It takes so much time to manual focus. 

I took around 600 images but threw out 200 of them, blurry and unwanted images. Most of them seems to be pretty sharp but due to low light inside, I had to bump up ISO / lower Shutter speed at 2.8 and 3200/6400 ISO were very grainy. I will never shoot at these ISO. I am using a 17-55mm f2.8.

With few same position images I shot, like I said before, even in AF, I got one sharp image out of 3 or 4 shots. I am posting this particular shot as it seems to describe the problem I am trying to explain. The 'sad' face was perfectly in focus but the 'smiley' face is not, which is pretty bad as I took like 3-4 of these shots and all smiley faces weren't at 100% focus.


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## maharzan (May 7, 2011)

Note, when not zoomed 10x in the LCD, they look absolutely great.


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## awinphoto (May 7, 2011)

maharzan said:


> Note, when not zoomed 10x in the LCD, they look absolutely great.



From what you were describing earlier with your keep rate, I'm glad to see the percentage go up overall. With that second "smiling" photo, on my iPhone it was kinda hard to see if the lens kinda backfocused cause some of the hair seemed in focus but not the eyes. Do you chimp the shots during the shoot? (review pictures and zoom all the way in after the picture was taken) to see if they are in focus? It kinda slows you down a bit however it zooms you in deeper than live view can and you may get a better idea on focus (however the monitor screen will be the final judge). What aperture were you shooting at? 2.8? 4? Just curious. Regarding the low light, that's a constant battle for working photographers on a daily occasion. There's good plug-in for photoshop if you have photoshop. Speaking of post production, sometimes you can underexposed upwards to 2 stops you can bump up the exposure in post however I would leave this as an exemption to the rule. Sometimes the grain will be lower that way rather than the pure digital noise by the camera. 

Keep practicing with af, use selective af rather than full zone af or 9 point af. The 4-5 point sometimes can be hit or miss depending on the depth of the subject/face/whatever. I would use primarily single point or the spot single point to nail focus however they can be tough on constantly moving subjects. Keep working at it and good luck. Feel free to email me if you keep having problems or questions.


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## maharzan (May 7, 2011)

Yes, Its very hard to see the difference in the LCD in day time. I reviewed 2-3 times to find that the difference. Took another shot and that was also out of focus (similar), I couldn't ask them to sit there for more that 5 shots you know. 

1st: ISO 200, 55mm f2.8 1/1000
2nd: ISO 200, 46mm f2.8 1/1000

These photos were taken outside, so no low light here.  I am just using 2.8 as I love it. hehe.

Looks like it front focused. I see her few hairs are focused, nothing else in that 2nd photo.

I use single point AF with that rectangle and move around to focus particular object.


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## bvukich (May 7, 2011)

maharzan said:


> Looks like it front focused. I see her few hairs are focused, nothing else in that 2nd photo.
> 
> I use single point AF with that rectangle and move around to focus particular object.



It definitely looks like it front focused. Maybe 1.5-2", I bet her left shoulder is in focus.


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## maharzan (May 7, 2011)

Yea, its a bit frustrating to not have a 'great' shot perfectly focused. Any tips on overcoming this?


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## unfocused (May 8, 2011)

My personal opinion is that this is a depth of field issue. One shot in focus, one shot just slightly out of focus. Or more accurately, one shot slightly mis-focused. 

I note that you were shooting wide open (2.8 at 1/1000) I'd bet that if you shot it at 1/250th at 5.6 her entire face would be in focus. It's hard to get autofocus perfect since the camera has to pick something to focus on and the camera can't really tell the difference between a nose and an eye. Practicing will help, but under real-world conditions, it's still hard to get it perfect every time.

Good news is that the only person who will notice will be you and only when you pixel-peep. Give them a print and it will look perfect. 

One way to feel better about this problem. Go take a look at Robert Frank's "The Americans" and see how many of his pictures were tack sharp. Didn't stop him from producing what may be the most significant photo book of the 20th century.


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## Orangutan (May 8, 2011)

unfocused said:


> My personal opinion is that this is a depth of field issue.



Agreed. You need to perform basic tests for front/back focus to assure yourself that there's nothing wrong.

Can anyone suggest a good testing methodology? A quick Google search yielded two: 

http://www.focustestchart.com/focus21.pdf
http://www.leongoodman.com/d70focusnew.html

They're written for Nikon, but should work fine for your 7D.


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## maharzan (May 8, 2011)

Cool.. I will keep practicing and see where I get to. Thanks again all of ya.


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## Admin US West (May 8, 2011)

You will find some good ideas and a workable autofocus microadjust chart here.

http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/focus-chart

Be sure to read the article first, understanding how the test chart works with your camera will help you get the best results. One of the many things to think about when testing autofocus is knowing exactly where your camera is going to focus. Unfortunately, some test charts cause people to have difficulty because their camera may not focus in the right spot. Then, we here complaints about erratic focus.

Focus can definitely be erratic, but make sure its not the test chart or subject causing it.


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## chriswatters (May 9, 2011)

When using a lens with a large aperture, and therefore a shallow depth of field, I have gotten similar results when my camera (a T2i) is set for One Shot AF. I suspect that my problem is that I do not fully release the shutter between shots. Any small change in distance can put the subject out of focus. Adjusting the zoom can also affect focus. Because the camera has already locked focus, it does not refocus until I fully release the shutter. To solve this problem, I either use Servo AI or make sure that I fully release the shutter between shots.


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## Admin US West (May 9, 2011)

chriswatters said:


> When using a lens with a large aperture, and therefore a shallow depth of field, I have gotten similar results when my camera (a T2i) is set for One Shot AF. I suspect that my problem is that I do not fully release the shutter between shots. Any small change in distance can put the subject out of focus. Adjusting the zoom can also affect focus. Because the camera has already locked focus, it does not refocus until I fully release the shutter. To solve this problem, I either use Servo AI or make sure that I fully release the shutter between shots.



Using a tripod will help immensely. You are trying to get the sharpest possible image, so any movement at all should be minimized.


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## chriswatters (May 9, 2011)

scalesusa said:


> Using a tripod will help immensely. You are trying to get the sharpest possible image, so any movement at all should be minimized.


A tripod might help in many situations, but it would be counter productive in mine. Most of the motion is on the part of the subject, and that requires more mobility on the part of the camera. 7 month old badies don't sit very still, even when you ask them nicely. 

Shutter speed is effective in freezing motion in the X and Y directions. The focus problems comes from motion in the Z direction. The methods that I mentioned seem to be helping in my case, but I am open to other suggestions.

I also realize that the problem could be avoided by increasing the depth of field, but an out-of-focus background is also desirable. Compromises must be made. Improvements in technique help in balancing those compromises.


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## maharzan (May 10, 2011)

Yea I have tried micro adjusting only to later disable it all. It seems to focus right. The only thing I am concerned is sometimes it focuses great sometimes not. And then, I have to yet to get sharpest of images like I see on flickr or other forums with the same gear/settings.  I guess people use more lights. Thats the only thing I think I am missing.


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## justsomedude (May 12, 2011)

maharzan said:


> The only thing I am concerned is sometimes it focuses great sometimes not. And then, I have to yet to get sharpest of images like I see on flickr or other forums with the same gear/settings.



Welcome to the world of the 7D. See my post *here*. And these articles *here*, and *here*, and *here*, and *here*. Then cry when you realize you're outside of your return window. But there's always warranty service if you want to start down that road.

Best of luck on your search for 7D sharp focus. 

:'(


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## Admin US West (May 13, 2011)

justsomedude said:


> maharzan said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing I am concerned is sometimes it focuses great sometimes not. And then, I have to yet to get sharpest of images like I see on flickr or other forums with the same gear/settings.
> ...



I've heard others comment about the accuracy of focus for the 7D. I did not have the issue with mine once I learned to use it, but at first, half my images were out. 

Still, it seems that others see the same issue.

Here is a link to some analysis. The data used for the analysis is pretty thin, and carrying out a analysis based on a trickle of data is a bit suspect, but, there may be something there.

For the most part, the data shows that the lens and not the camera determines accuracy of focus.

http://nikonrumors.com/2011/03/28/auto-focus-accuracy-a-scientific-cross-brand-analysis-guest-post.aspx


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## mogud (May 13, 2011)

This topic seems to be, along with the "wait or bite" 7DII question, the most frequent topic/problem regarding the 7d. Not trying to generalize any here, but I get the impression that most OOF questions come from users who have graduated from Rebel models to the 7d. These cameras are completely different beasts with the 7D being "the" beast. I used the 50d for quite a while and got very frustrated with the 9 point system. Before the 50d, I shot manual focus film cameras with no IS. The 7d is not an automatic point and shoot camera. As a matter of fact, I think it's a pretty poor PS camera. It's also not a great center focus camera IMHO. The focusing system in the 7d is amazing and once mastered, images are very sharp. I needed to MA my 24-105 by -1. I've never had an OOF shot and the camera is very consistent. I move the focus point where I want it to be for every shot I take. I've disabled zone and auto 19 pt focusing. If the OP has not read and re-read the manual completely and understood and practiced using the camera, then this camera will give you soft images all the time. Hopefully, the OP's problem with the camera can be resolved - best of luck.


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## marcm1 (May 13, 2011)

We'll seeing how I started this question LOL, 

I shoot photos of my daughters doing cheerlaeding which has to be the worst sport to have to take pictures at due to bad lighting and quick speeds needed and also not allowed to use a flash at all. I try to stay above 500 shutter speed, My 70-200 2.8 is usually wide open at 2.8 and the ISO I try to keep low but alot of times 2000 to 6400 if needed for exposure. I have it set to center point auto focus, AI servo, and low speed continous shooting. I haven't tried changing any other settings down in the menu due to not really knowing what they do. Is there some other main settings that would really help with taking pictures such harsh places to take pictures. I usually try to adjust my pictures by trying to keep the exposure level indicator in the middle and make any adjustments with ISO, aperture or shutter speed if needed last option to keep above or at 500 speed to keep n motion blurr down.

Any suggestions would be GREAT !!!!!

Thanks.


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## neuroanatomist (May 13, 2011)

marcm1 said:


> I shoot photos of my daughters doing cheerlaeding which has to be the worst sport to have to take pictures at due to bad lighting and quick speeds needed and also not allowed to use a flash at all. ...My 70-200 2.8 is usually wide open at 2.8 and the ISO I try to keep low but alot of times 2000 to 6400 if needed for exposure. I have it set to center point auto focus, AI servo, and low speed continous shooting. I haven't tried changing any other settings down in the menu due to not really knowing what they do. Is there some other main settings that would really help with taking pictures such harsh places to take pictures.



One thing that would help would be a faster lens. The 135mm f/2L is often recommended for low-light sports shooting, if 100mm would work there's also the much less expensive 100mm f/2. 

In terms of settings, AI Servo is best. You might consider AF point expansion (if the camera can't focus using the selected AF point, for example if the whole AF point is covered by a monochromatic part of a jersey), adjacent points will be used. If you have a fast CF card, you might consider high-speed continuous, as it will likely increase the chance of capturing a good facial expression, etc., at the cost of having more pics to sort through. The other AF settings to explore are the tracking sensitivity (C.Fn III-1) and tracking method (C.Fn III-3). How you set those depends on how you shoot. If your primary objective is to capture images of your daughters, setting sensitivity to slow and method to 1: continuous AF tracking priority. Those settings will result in the 7D trying to maintain focus on the initial subject, ignoring other cheerleaders who move into the frame or pass in front of your subject.

If you don't already, consider shooting in RAW. Although your buffer will fill faster (fewer shots in a burst), you'll have much more flexibility to adjust exposure in post processing, and noise reduction (important if you're going that high with ISO on a relatively noisy camera like the 7D) will be better. Consider DxO for post processing - IMO, it does a much better job of noise reduction than DPP.


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## motorhead (May 13, 2011)

As far as using DPP for noise reduction I totally agree Neuroanatomist. In fact I'd go further - it is also poor at sharpening in my opinion. I love it for RAW conversion and refuse to use anything else, but I have third party Photoshop plug-ins for both noise reduction and sharpening.


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## neuroanatomist (May 13, 2011)

motorhead said:


> As far as using DPP for noise reduction I totally agree Neuroanatomist. In fact I'd go further - it is also poor at sharpening in my opinion. I love it for RAW conversion and refuse to use anything else, but I have third party Photoshop plug-ins for both noise reduction and sharpening.



You convert your RAW images to JPGs using DPP, and then you open the JPGs in Photoshop and perform NR and sharpening? If so, that's not really optimal - NR works better on the RAW image. That's one main reason I use DxO for RAW conversions (another is the lens-specific corrections that are based on empirical testing of specific lens+body combinations). If you're interested, I previously posted a comparison of DPP vs. DxO.


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## awinphoto (May 13, 2011)

mogud said:


> This topic seems to be, along with the "wait or bite" 7DII question, the most frequent topic/problem regarding the 7d. Not trying to generalize any here, but I get the impression that most OOF questions come from users who have graduated from Rebel models to the 7d. These cameras are completely different beasts with the 7D being "the" beast. I used the 50d for quite a while and got very frustrated with the 9 point system. Before the 50d, I shot manual focus film cameras with no IS. The 7d is not an automatic point and shoot camera. As a matter of fact, I think it's a pretty poor PS camera. It's also not a great center focus camera IMHO. The focusing system in the 7d is amazing and once mastered, images are very sharp. I needed to MA my 24-105 by -1. I've never had an OOF shot and the camera is very consistent. I move the focus point where I want it to be for every shot I take. I've disabled zone and auto 19 pt focusing. If the OP has not read and re-read the manual completely and understood and practiced using the camera, then this camera will give you soft images all the time. Hopefully, the OP's problem with the camera can be resolved - best of luck.



+1 It has one heck of a learning curve, especially moving up from the XXD series or rebels, however, once mastered, it can be a workhorse of a camera...


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## awinphoto (May 13, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> marcm1 said:
> 
> 
> > I shoot photos of my daughters doing cheerlaeding which has to be the worst sport to have to take pictures at due to bad lighting and quick speeds needed and also not allowed to use a flash at all. ...My 70-200 2.8 is usually wide open at 2.8 and the ISO I try to keep low but alot of times 2000 to 6400 if needed for exposure. I have it set to center point auto focus, AI servo, and low speed continous shooting. I haven't tried changing any other settings down in the menu due to not really knowing what they do. Is there some other main settings that would really help with taking pictures such harsh places to take pictures.
> ...



Just remember that with faster lenses (to compensate for low light, focus will be razor thin and focus will be even more critical so the focus system will be even more important to figure out. If you dont fully master the focus system, with a faster lens you may find even more OOF shots. That being said, the AF would be aided with more light to the AF sensor, however you still need to master focusing... 

One suggestions for mastering focus, or at least worked for me, even if you dont like birds, bird photography. Go to a lake or park, birds are constantly moving and wont stay still, if you're still and on a bench, sometimes they will come close to you... You will know if you lock focus on the eyes by looking at the feathers... If sharp, the feathers around the eyes will be razor sharp. If not, you should be able to see on the bird where the feathers are sharp and where they aren't and if you see a pattern of the focus being behind the eyes or in front, then it's a MA issue... If it's occasionally off, then it could be that you need to work on your reflexes... Also remember, at times, even though you have a 70-200 f2.8, sometimes, in some situations, 1/500 may not be fast enough, especially for motion blur. That will be fast enough for camera shake, but NOT motion blur in some situations. Sometimes 2.8 may not be fast enough for the situation you are shooting... That's a situation of learning your equipment and capabilities and knowing if you need to plunk more money on faster gear.


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## Pax (May 13, 2011)

So excited top of the range 7D> The strap alone is enough to make ones head turn. Being new to DSLR What can go wrong. The results I got were so disappointing I asked my self Is the image this bad because its digital 
When I shot Film the image was so sharp it would cut my eye. The lovely (I thought ) composed tripod picture looked so fuzzy a fly would not land on it . I did not like to blame the equipment (shucks the best that could be bought) so I believed. and anyway if my staff blamed their tools, their quality or ability would have been debatable.
I was happy to accept, may be the Sigma 150_500 ,canon 15 _85 canon70_300( I was told these are not Pro lenses.) BUT Canon 70_200 2.8 is 11 USM I believe Canon flagship not to forget the 100 2.8 Macro L. I shoot in raw (some one said that is the way to go ) I also heard that raw is not sharp it needs finishing. Well when I open this 23odd meg file BaaBaBAAAA with a fanfare and music the apple opens the very colorful blurry image .When I press the sharpen key. Oh My.........the computer shuts down It tells me please that it has been used up I have sent the body and 15-85 in for repair or new firmware that is how I found your contact. It looks like this is a problem with all 7d . Has the Eos1D Mk1v got the same handicap? I don't want to be disappointed again .If the camera did what the brochures ? This 7D will always have a place in my heart even if it is in a display cab-net
Very sad
paddy


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## awinphoto (May 13, 2011)

Pax said:


> So excited top of the range 7D> The strap alone is enough to make ones head turn. Being new to DSLR What can go wrong. The results I got were so disappointing I asked my self Is the image this bad because its digital
> When I shot Film the image was so sharp it would cut my eye. The lovely (I thought ) composed tripod picture looked so fuzzy a fly would not land on it . I did not like to blame the equipment (shucks the best that could be bought) so I believed. and anyway if my staff blamed their tools, their quality or ability would have been debatable.
> I was happy to accept, may be the Sigma 150_500 ,canon 15 _85 canon70_300( I was told these are not Pro lenses.) BUT Canon 70_200 2.8 is 11 USM I believe Canon flagship not to forget the 100 2.8 Macro L. I shoot in raw (some one said that is the way to go ) I also heard that raw is not sharp it needs finishing. Well when I open this 23odd meg file BaaBaBAAAA with a fanfare and music the apple opens the very colorful blurry image .When I press the sharpen key. Oh My.........the computer shuts down It tells me please that it has been used up I have sent the body and 15-85 in for repair or new firmware that is how I found your contact. It looks like this is a problem with all 7d . Has the Eos1D Mk1v got the same handicap? I don't want to be disappointed again .If the camera did what the brochures ? This 7D will always have a place in my heart even if it is in a display cab-net
> Very sad
> paddy



Here we go again.... =) Anywho... are you shooting on full zone AF? How much have you played with this camera? Do you use single spot or expanded AF? I think the 100 macro and 70-200 would have a far greater sharpness and keeper rate than the 15-85, however there are sooo many variables and issues, it is something where we would have to know more about the situation to diagnose what is going on... The AF system is a beast but to get the most out of it, you need to learn it more. Feel free to post more specifics... This camera, for the density of the sensor, is getting greater than films density at similar crops so focus will be magnified. Is part of the image in focus or completely 100% blurry?


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## Admin US West (May 13, 2011)

Pax said:


> It looks like this is a problem with all 7d . Has the Eos1D Mk1v got the same handicap? I don't want to be disappointed again .If the camera did what the brochures ? This 7D will always have a place in my heart even if it is in a display cab-net
> Very sad
> paddy



I have used many DSLR's over the years. Film images looked sharp, until I scanned them and put them on a large monitor like my digital photos, then they were obviously inferior.

I ordered a new 7D when they were announced, and when mine arrived, I went to a local park and tried shooting some ducks and seagullys flying around. Every shot was out of focus. So, I expermented with the settings, and found that I had just used the green box thinking that on a new camera, that was a good place to start. Wrong! It was all the wrong settings for birds flying, and the camera was focusing on the nearest object, which may not have been where I wanted it to focus. My second try was much better, and my third try, the camera did a near perfect job of focusing. All the out of focus shots were due to my error.

I did not keep the camera though, but returned it, because I just preferred my 5D MK II for all around shooting, and the 7D was too expensive for a backup. i bought a nice used 40D for a backup. I eventually bought a used 1D MK III for a 2nd camera, and far prefer it to the 7D, but thats just a personal preference. I keep my 100-400mmL on the 1D, they seem to me to have been made for each other.


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## neuroanatomist (May 13, 2011)

Pax said:


> Canon 70_200 2.8 is 11 USM I believe It looks like this is a problem with all 7d . Has the Eos1D Mk1v got the same handicap? I don't want to be disappointed again .



Depends on what handicap you're talking about. There are a lot of things that can cause a blurry image, and as has been noted, the 7D has a very sophisticated AF system with many settings and permutations. If it's a case of user error, then yes, the 1DIV will have the same handicap, unless you hand it to someone else. Hopefully, Canon can fix your problem, if there is one. Personally, my 7D delivers amazingly crisp images, and while I realize that defects can occur in any manufacturing process, a statement like, "_It looks like this is a problem with all 7d,_" is patently wrong.


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## awinphoto (May 13, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Pax said:
> 
> 
> > Canon 70_200 2.8 is 11 USM I believe It looks like this is a problem with all 7d . Has the Eos1D Mk1v got the same handicap? I don't want to be disappointed again .
> ...



I couldn't have said it better myself.


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## justsomedude (May 13, 2011)

It's unfortunate to see this thread go down the similar path as those over at DPreview.com, which is an attitude of condescension and arrogance to those who complain of soft focus. I'm truly amazed when I see posts pointing the blame at users who "haven't learned" how to use their 7D properly, "haven't read the manual", or are just simply too stupid for a "beast" such as the 7D after starting on a Rebel. But when *guys like Darwin Wiggett are reporting the exact same issue*, it's hard for me to believe that he's a retard who has no idea how to use a camera.

This type of approach to users who clearly have repeatable problems with auto-focus is not only unhelpful, but says far more about those who are unable to provide legitimate advice, than those complaining of OOF images. You get great images on your 7D? Great, that doesn't mean everyone else with an AF problem is a moron. 

*Tripod Focus Test, with remote shutter release* >> http://akphotodenver.com/images/7Dlenstest.jpg (note: I never - ever - had this problem on my 40D).
*Sample Gallery *>> http://www.akphotodenver.com/client/claire/ (note: Almost every image is focused on baby's eyelid, yet every image is clearly front focused 2-3 inches - especially at full res. I used excessive clarity adjustments in some instances to try and hide the poor focus)

I have used a 10D, then a 40D, before ultimately upgrading to my 7D. Never in my experience with digital cameras have I ever had to deal with so many non-keepers than I have with my 7D. I shoot 99% of the time in full manual, custom preset, or aperture priority mode. The bulk of my images are One Shot focus in the single shot shooting mode, with a manually selected single point of focus used (I just don't like the zone modes). My 10D and 40D made tack sharp images using this approach, yet applying the same method to the 7D yields atrocious keeper rates.

I'd really be amazed that Canon would release a product that is so advanced that it takes a special person to learn how to use it. That is simply a poor business model to implement. "Yeah, we know most manufacturers sell products where you can open a camera box, put on a lens, select a manual focus point and shoot a sharp image - but - NAAAAH... we would NEVER want our camera to do THAT!" I mean, do you really want me to believe that "typical" use of the 7D SHOULDN'T yield good results? Come on.

___________________________________
PS: I have a slew of sequential images that I submitted to Canon with my latest return to service. Focus is all over the map in sequences of 6-8 shots, even with selected focus point on exact same subjcet - exact same distance from lens. I'll post them when I get home tonight for review/comment.


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## neuroanatomist (May 13, 2011)

justsomedude said:


> This type of approach to users who clearly have repeatable problems with auto-focus is not only unhelpful, but says far more about those who are unable to provide legitimate advice, than those complaining of OOF images. You get great images on your 7D? Great, that doesn't mean everyone else with an AF problem is a moron.



Hopefully no one here is stating that. I know that I'm not. But the other side of the problem is a lack fo details from some posters with the problem. "My 7D takes blurry pictures." "Doctor, I don't feel well." Neither statement provides sufficient details to identify the nature of the problems. I'd certainly be happy to provide legitimate advice, given more information. 

In another forum a user complained about his new 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II - he tried three copies of the lens, and on all three of them, "_the bottom of the picture was out of focus_." It turned out the lenses were fine, and the real problem was that he wasn't expecting the substantial amount of foreground blur that results from 200mm f/2.8 (a lot of background blur too, obviously, but he was expecting that so he didn't complain about the top of the picture being OOF as well). But it took a fair bit of digging and back and forth questioning to get to that conclusion. Now he's happy with his lens.

The moral is that sometimes the equipment is to blame for the problem, sometimes the user is to blame, and sometimes neither is doing anything wrong, but the user's expectations aren't in line with the capabilities of the equipment.


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## awinphoto (May 13, 2011)

justsomedude, I hope you dont take my posts the wrong way either. Over the years, I know a lot of people who really dont spend time with their gear to really appreciate it and master it... Too many times they will take a handful of frames, say it's crap, move on, and post on blogs everywhere "this camera is horrible, yada yada yada"... Too many times people who are the fence will read posts and make judgements about something without knowing the full discussion without trying out and mastering the equipment beforehand. 

I'm familiar with your situation and post and your need for MA. I dont know what happened since we last posted, however if you need to send equipment in to make sure it's fully up to par with Canon, great... however after that point, it may not be an equipment problem but a user problem if it still exists. Personally, I've gone from using 4x5's to medium format to digital... I've used the first nikon digitals plus canon's first D60 through 10D to 30D to 50D to 7D... I've also shot with the 1d and 1ds... the 7D is the first camera in which i had the feeling of "holy crap, I need to grow into a better photographer to make the most out of this camera". Like scaleusa, my first photoshoot everyshot with my 7D was OOF... it was horrible... I thought I had a bad camera... I learned all the settings, all the modes, learned which i like better than others for how I shoot... I upped my ante and shoot daily with the camera, and now it's rarity i get OOF shots unless its an extreme low light situation or when I'm pushing my lenses to the limit regarding light vs speed. 

I will concede that there are bad copies of every camera, however if after you send your camera in to get checked (with lenses), then I think it's either a situation where someone almost needs to fully spend the time to master the equipment, check your expectations, and or move to better equipment. As i've said in other posts, if you or anyone have questions, feel free to ask and or email me before giving up on a camera which may or may not be the problem.


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## unfocused (May 13, 2011)

justsomedude, you may have some legitimate concerns, but when you resort to bigoted, inappropriate stereotyping rather than logic to make your point, it causes me to write you off.

Perhaps you should spend a little time at this site: http://www.r-word.org/


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## mogud (May 14, 2011)

It's disappointing that respondents on this forum have to resort to silly comments to try and get their point across. I like my 7d. I get great tack sharp pictures from it. If that's not the case with some users, then maybe all the people who are dissatisfied should buy/use other cameras and be happier. I think I'll stop posting here and forget offering my $0.02. Enjoy your cameras everybody and "have a nice day".


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## unfocused (May 14, 2011)

> I think I'll stop posting here and forget offering my $0.02



I hope you'll reconsider. I hate for the jerks to win.


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## Pax (May 14, 2011)

It was invigorating to get your prompt response
Having photographic experience since 1964(that was when Kodak Type3 ortho film was around) look it up
I tried 1)Center pin focus
2)Mirror lock
3)Shutter 2000+
4)Max light
5)Weighted down Tripod out of the wind( we don't have earth tremors here)
6)Lowest ISO
7)External shutter release
8)Manual and auto focus
I felt the problem not auto focus or the non Pro lenses. Through the eye piece the image is outstanding. 
Help me if I am wrong The problem is between capturing and storing the info. May be a fine adjustment. 
I am pleased to hear that the density on a sensor is greater than a transparency. That is a great plus for HDR
I on my 7D Color gradation delicate.... shadow to three quarter tone smooth.... quarter tone to hi-lite...catch light snappy.
a bit disappointed with the soft shades around the molding of face and skin tones. any help. besides portraiture mode.
Please give your input I enjoyed your constructive criticism Now your superior advice.
A new body for me end, mid 2012? The new 5D or Eos1D When the new models come out.
low light wild life..........sports including fast martial art movements. 
I am re inspired with MY 7D. maybe it can sleep on the pillow with me again and not go to the display cabinet
Will let you know what results when it gets back
thanx
pax


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## marcm1 (May 14, 2011)

Hey Neuroanatomist.

I have 3- Sandisk Extreme 4 8gb. 45mb/s cards would I be better off shooting in RAW then?


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## Admin US West (May 14, 2011)

Pax said:


> It was invigorating to get your prompt response
> Having photographic experience since 1964(that was when Kodak Type3 ortho film was around) look it up
> I tried 1)Center pin focus
> 2)Mirror lock
> ...



Are you able to post some images so we can see what the issues are? Unfortunately, its is not easy for most of us to see well enough thru the eyepiece to determine if the focus is right on. 

As far as Digital being better than slide film, its not that simple. Digital has many strong points, and so does film. There is always a tradeoff of some sort. Which ever looks better to you is the correct choice for you, but I might like something else better. Its not a matter of right or wrong, just of personal choice. 


Did you try manual focusing using liveview? Using the same settings, while on a tripod, turn on live view, and use the magnification control to view the image at 5X or even 10X. Then, see if you can manually focus the image to be sharper. If you can make a improvement, then by adjusting the AF microadjust forward or backwards, you can improve focus for that distance to subject, and likely at all distances. When using live view, you are seeing the image right off the camera sensor, while thru the eyepiece, it can be focused differently, but that is unusual. Camera makers sometimes use small shims under or above the focus screen to correct this.

As far as skin tones, that can be caused by the lightinng, cameras are often not as good at guessing colors as we would like. A camera photosite only sees black and white, so there is a complex algorythm in the processor that constructs the colors to be like the original, or sometimes not.

If the photo was taken using raw, then there is leeway for quite a bit of adjustment in processing to get the look you want. Some processing software will remember this and import your images with the same adjustments every time, but you do have to turn that setting on.


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## justsomedude (May 15, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> I dont know what happened since we last posted, however if you need to send equipment in to make sure it's fully up to par with Canon, great... however after that point, it may not be an equipment problem but a user problem if it still exists. ...As i've said in other posts, if you or anyone have questions, feel free to ask and or email me before giving up on a camera which may or may not be the problem.



Thanks for the detailed response Awin. If my post seemed to be exuding frustration, it's because it was.  I've just seen enough of the "you-just-don't-understand-the-ultra-advanced-7D-to-use-it-properly" comments strewn about the internet on this issue, and I have little to no patience for them; regardless of how "helpful" the poster's intent may be. With respect to additional details, I've sent the body back twice now. The first service resulted in no change, while the second trip proved to establish consistent and tack sharp focus with my 2 kit lenses (28-135 and 18-55) and my L series 70-200 f/2.8 II. 

Curiously, the problems remain with my 50mm. MF adjustments fix the problem, but, and this is where it gets really weird, for only a short period of time. After a random time period (sometimes a few minutes, a few hours, or even a few days), the focus goes bonkers again. I explained this to the Canon service tech., and he was baffled. Now, both my 50mm and the 7D are at Canon Irvine (at this very moment) to try to get to the bottom of this.

The saddest situation, however, is my Tokina 11-16mm. No type of MF adjustments can fix this baby. When paired with the 7D it is just a total nightmare. Focus is sometimes spot on, and then sometimes totally out the window. There appears to be no rhyme or reason as to if/when/where it will focus, and it's driven me to madness. Selected points will "lock" focus with 100% consistency, it's just that the resultant photo is rarely actually "focused" (a total mish-mash of front/back focus). After a visit to THK service in California, the lens returned with a note saying "no work required - meets all manufacturer specifications." I even called and got to speak with a Tokina tech. directly who said the 11-16mm should have no issue pairing with the 7D. I've sent this letter/info on to Canon with its latest service, but not the lens, since I'm sure they won't touch non-Canon lenses. This is the same 11-16 that performed flawlessly on my 40D. So, to me, this seems very very bizarre.

Anyway - that's where I'm at. 3 of 5 lenses are now great. 50mm is so-so, but unreliable enough to be useless on paid gigs. Tokina 11-16mm is totally useless, and will probably be sold if there are no improvements after the latest 7D service visit. 

However, I am more hopeful now than I have been regarding my future with this body. A recent shoot at a nearby racetrack with my 70-200 has really boosted my spirits. Even at 160th with AIservo and panning, she grabbed focus superbly. >> http://www.akphotodenver.com/client/mra711/download/7Dhope.jpg

Hopefully, all gets corrected in time. I'm not bailing on Canon, or this body, just yet. I'll keep you posted.


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## maharzan (May 15, 2011)

Whatever great 7D is on paper, it shouldn't be so tedious to get that sharp focus while other cameras seems to do it in instant. Afterall, so many people in so many forums cannot be wrong, you know. If they get sharp pictures easily on 40D,Xsi etc, it shouldn't be so hard on the great 7D. I just feel something is wrong. I never had any experience on other DSLRs but even cameras I used back then (analog) was easy to focus, even if it was manual. I just hate having to spend 30 secs trying to get a sharp focus or 4-5 shots to get 1 good shot. With technology, things should be easier and faster not the other way around. I am definitely going to consider another body in near future. Life should be easy you know.


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## awinphoto (May 15, 2011)

justmedude, thanks for your response regarding your camera situation. While I have used the 28-135 and have my preconceived notions on that lens, I'm glad the camera was repaired to work well with that lens. Regarding the 50mm... which 50mm is it? The 50mm 1.2 was very shaky on my camera with a low keeper rate when I tested it through CPS, however on my 1.4, while plagued with the crappy micro motor, is more consistent. The 1.8, while I honestly cant say I've used that lens, it is what it is... The 1.2 i've heard lots of complaints about the focus issue so i'm sure it's the lens, however it cannot confirm or deny if it is a lens defect or not. 

Regarding the 11-16 tokina... dont get me wrong, i used to love tokina's... That was one of my favorite lenses out of college because they offered lenses I could afford on ebay with a small budget, especially on the wide end. I haven't played with the lens you got so i cant speak for it, however you said you had great photos with it with the 40D and now you cant with the 7D? While I doubt canon would be willing to adjust the tokina to meet the cameras sensor for optimum focus, that's a tough one. If MA doesn't work for you... well lets put a hypothetical out there... is the OOF consistant... Lets say you shot a similar scene over and over and over with that lens, is the area in focus (that you were intending to be OOF) is that scene consistantly in focus meaning the AF is working properly however with the combination of the sensor and the lens, it is outside the range of MA allotment? Or is it sometimes front focusing, sometimes backfocusing, just all over the place? I guess that would be the first place I'd check is the see the consistency of the focus issue. In that case, i would have to say perhaps there is a possible fix... If not and it's all over the place, I would have to say it's a compatibility issue. 

I have heard hints through the intrawebs that some lenses have certain issues with compatibility with newer bodies, for evidence of that see the issues about some of the older canon lenses and tamron lenses not seeing the correct ID's of the lenses in the metadata... Without being there and seeing the situation myself it's pure speculation on my part so dont get me wrong.

I dont mean to come off on a "its the operators problem, stupid" attitude, sometimes we all get lemon equipment, however I also came from humble beginnings during and out of college with little money to start my gear, using my first credit card to buy my 10D and shopping for lenses on ebay because that's all i had to start with. I had lenses and equipment that had issues and I couldn't afford to fix them so i had to learn to overcome it... Sometimes I feel people give up too quickly without putting in the time to learn to overcome obstacles. Then when people start blanket stating their in the heat emotions on the internet about equipment that may or may not be true and or thought out, I think it does the internet community a dis-service in that regards. I hope to hear back from you regarding your issues.


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## awinphoto (May 15, 2011)

maharzan said:


> Whatever great 7D is on paper, it shouldn't be so tedious to get that sharp focus while other cameras seems to do it in instant. Afterall, so many people in so many forums cannot be wrong, you know. If they get sharp pictures easily on 40D,Xsi etc, it shouldn't be so hard on the great 7D. I just feel something is wrong. I never had any experience on other DSLRs but even cameras I used back then (analog) was easy to focus, even if it was manual. I just hate having to spend 30 secs trying to get a sharp focus or 4-5 shots to get 1 good shot. With technology, things should be easier and faster not the other way around. I am definitely going to consider another body in near future. Life should be easy you know.



I understand where your coming from, however hindsight is always 20/20 in regards to photography and camera gear. With the 7D it magnifies so much more due to all the extra MP that any and every little flaw in focus and or lens will be that much more magnified. I had the pleasure a few months ago to run into a CF card with pictures I didn't delete yet which were from my old 30D and sigma tele lens... During the time when I had that camera, it seemed to constantly pop out amazing photos one after another, however looking back at that card and photos, now with my increased expectations, I would be ashamed to show any of those photos on my portfolio due to stuff I may not have noticed during my time using that camera. It doesn't mean the camera was bad, but my increased expectations of me, of my current gear, of my skill set has changed. Comparing different, especially older generations of cameras is apples to oranges due to that same reason. 7D is a beast of a camera, but on the same note, any slight issue will be that much more magnified.


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## bvukich (May 15, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> I understand where your coming from, however hindsight is always 20/20 in regards to photography and camera gear. With the 7D it magnifies so much more due to all the extra MP that any and every little flaw in focus and or lens will be that much more magnified. I had the pleasure a few months ago to run into a CF card with pictures I didn't delete yet which were from my old 30D and sigma tele lens... During the time when I had that camera, it seemed to constantly pop out amazing photos one after another, however looking back at that card and photos, now with my increased expectations, I would be ashamed to show any of those photos on my portfolio due to stuff I may not have noticed during my time using that camera. It doesn't mean the camera was bad, but my increased expectations of me, of my current gear, of my skill set has changed. Comparing different, especially older generations of cameras is apples to oranges due to that same reason. 7D is a beast of a camera, but on the same note, any slight issue will be that much more magnified.



Nail, head, hit.


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## maharzan (May 15, 2011)

Do you guys have sample photos so I can check how sharp you guys can get and what you did to take those photos? That might help.


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## justsomedude (May 15, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> Regarding the 11-16 tokina... dont get me wrong, i used to love tokina's... That was one of my favorite lenses out of college because they offered lenses I could afford on ebay with a small budget, especially on the wide end. I haven't played with the lens you got so i cant speak for it, however you said you had great photos with it with the 40D and now you cant with the 7D? While I doubt canon would be willing to adjust the tokina to meet the cameras sensor for optimum focus, that's a tough one. If MA doesn't work for you... well lets put a hypothetical out there... is the OOF consistant... Lets say you shot a similar scene over and over and over with that lens, is the area in focus (that you were intending to be OOF) is that scene consistantly in focus meaning the AF is working properly however with the combination of the sensor and the lens, it is outside the range of MA allotment? Or is it sometimes front focusing, sometimes backfocusing, just all over the place? I guess that would be the first place I'd check is the see the consistency of the focus issue. In that case, i would have to say perhaps there is a possible fix... If not and it's all over the place, I would have to say it's a compatibility issue.
> 
> I hope to hear back from you regarding your issues.



Awin, thanks again for the detailed reply - your patience and help is MUCH appreciated.

So, some more detail... the 50mm is the cheapie 1.8 (yes, I'm on a budget). But even with that said, I really wouldn't expect such glaring inconsistencies in sequential photos. Check the following full resolution samples (and note, all three are sequence photos, with a good pause between shots for reacquiring focus)...

http://www.akphotodenver.com/images/7D

These are all handheld images, One Shot focus, single shot "sequence" mode, with manually selected single point of focus (center point). On the microwave images, the vertical black/white edge of the clock/panel was used as contrast line for focusing. One could argue the slow-shutter speed was the problem, but the exact same issue appeared moments later when I took photos of a pay phone outside my window at blazing fast shutter speeds. On the pay phone images, the text of the word "phone" in the pay phone booth was the area used for focus. The lens is wide open on all shots where (yes, I know) the 1.8 performs poorest with "sharpness." Still, this level of inconsistency seems outside the realm of "normal performance" for me. Heck, if this IS indeed "normal" for the cheapie 1.8, please let me know, and maybe I just need to drop the dollar on the 1.4. Thoughts? Metadata is unedited and available if you choose to download the images. Also - these exact images were sent to Canon on CD with the current service visit.

Now, on to the Tokina. The performance actually IS somewhat front-focus consistent. At 0-MF, the lens bumps infinity up a little bit, throwing everything beyond 4'-5' out of focus. Everything within that distance is tack sharp. Manual focus at infinity allows proper focus to be achieved. Furthermore, adjusting MF to +20 seems to help... somewhat. Performance is vastly improved with center-point focus, but the outer points are still bonkers. Infinity focus is achieved for that center point (somewhat) consistently, which leads me to believe the Tokina is possibly outside the MF range. Is this fixable? Yet, the issue with the outer points leads me to believe a possible lens ID issue might also be at play. Tokina samples are available at the same link above.


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## motorhead (May 15, 2011)

Justsomedude,

I've carefully examined all your examples and apart from random sharpness variations which I'd suggest are caused by hand holding the camera, they all seem reasonable. Certainly I have worse examples shot using Canon "L" glass handheld. It does not take much to just take that edge off. The only one I'd have reshot immediately would be the gym shot. 

Remember none of us stand still when we shoot. We might think we do, but in reality we all sway slightly.

To fully test for front/back focusing issues try shooting using a tripod, so that camera movement is completely ruled out as a possible cause. Apart from my motorsport images I use a tripod for everything, and for the bikes/cars I use a monopod! I've had too many otherwise good compositions lost due to camera movement.


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## justsomedude (May 15, 2011)

motorhead said:


> Justsomedude,
> 
> I've carefully examined all your examples and apart from random sharpness variations which I'd suggest are caused by hand holding the camera, they all seem reasonable. Certainly I have worse examples shot using Canon "L" glass handheld. It does not take much to just take that edge off. The only one I'd have reshot immediately would be the gym shot.



Thanks for the critique, motorhead - it is much appreciated. Although how can camera shake be entering in as a factor at 1/6400 of a second shutter speed (as was used in the pay phone photos)? Also, every Tokina image was with a tripod - and the interior ones all used a remote shutter release cable. You really would not have re-shot this one - where the focus point was the microwave clock? > http://www.akphotodenver.com/images/7D/Tokina_no_focus-8280.jpg To me that seems unacceptably blurred. Sh*t, I can't even read the time on the clock. But maybe my expectations of sharpness are too high? 

The bulk of my frustration is mainly coming from the change in performance from 40D to the 7D. I even went back to my older Lightroom imports and found that I had far better consistency with focus shot-to-shot on the 40D with the same lenses than the 7D. Perhaps I'm just seeing more "faults" due to the pixel density of the 7D? If that's the case, I guess I can learn to live with it.


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## neuroanatomist (May 15, 2011)

justsomedude said:


> You really would not have re-shot this one - where the focus point was the microwave clock? > http://www.akphotodenver.com/images/7D/Tokina_no_focus-8280.jpg To me that seems unacceptably blurred. Sh*t, I can't even read the time on the clock. But maybe my expectations of sharpness are too high?



I sure would have... The shot linked above looks severely front-focused. The cabinetry to the right of the dishwasher and the left edge of the fridge actually look in focus, and when I look at the EXIF, a Subject Distance of 1.13 is reported (in meters, I believe), consistent with extreme front focus. That's even more evident in shot -8283, where the clock is unreadable, but the words on the ice maker in the left door of the fridge are legible. THe AFMA of +20 is also consietent, and as you say, not enough - the lens and body need to be calibrated together (which Canon won't do for a 3rd party lens, and Tokina might not be able to adjust the lens enough (and I don't think they'd touch the body).


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## awinphoto (May 16, 2011)

justsomedude said:


> Awin, thanks again for the detailed reply - your patience and help is MUCH appreciated.
> 
> So, some more detail... the 50mm is the cheapie 1.8 (yes, I'm on a budget). But even with that said, I really wouldn't expect such glaring inconsistencies in sequential photos. Check the following full resolution samples (and note, all three are sequence photos, with a good pause between shots for reacquiring focus)...
> 
> http://www.akphotodenver.com/images/7D



justsomedude,

thanks for sharing your photos... as neuro mentioned, it does appear to be severely front focused however i'm not sure about your options regarding the tokina lens. If there is any consolation prize, you can live with it, call it art, and charge 3x the price =). I used to have quite a selection of sigma lenses once I started upgrading my gear from the 10D to 30D... Once I moved to the 50D I joined CPS and still am with CPS. Ever since then I only have 1 sigma lens left (10-20mm) which I will keep until I make the leap into full frame completely. The reason I did that was in the long run, if i needed anything fixed within canon, it's just one company to deal with than sigma (and or tokina, tamron, etc)... If you have a full MA and you still cant get + or - 20 something doesn't seem right. IF and that's a big IF it is the case and there is a severe incompatibility, I would ask if you still have your 40D and if it still works great with the 40D. If you got rid of the 40D, just asking, but is there a chance it was dropped or something happened to maybe loosen an element to cause it to be so far off? Just trying to rule that situation out. 

Regarding the 50mm 1.8, I cant say I've used that lens so I cant speak for that lens... From what reviews i read, it was a good bang for your buck lens with the 1.4 and 1.2 being just a tad sharper overall which speaks a lot for a lens averaging just about $100. The 1.4 is a good lens, however in another forum post, i gave my 2 cents on that lens... It's sharp from 1.8 and up... however the crappy micro usm causes me to almost wait a second or two to allow the lens to fully catch up to me shooting which is ok for portraits, so-so for event photography, however for fast shooting, is a nightmare. It's a lens issue for that lens. Also the focus mech for the 1.2 I tested left me wanting a lot (A LOT) more. I dont know if the 1.8 issue is because you're shooting to fast (not fully waiting on the focus beep) like my 1.4 has or if it is a MA issue. That's one of those hands on things I couldn't tell ya unless i'm there. As far as upgrading, i would wait and see if and when the 1.4 gets replaced. Then I'd buy one once they are out and reviews come back glowing. 

You mentioned you sent in your camera again... I hope you sent all your lenses in because I would hate for the adjustments they made last time to make the 28-135 and the other lens to get screwed up just to make the 50mm up to par. As always, if you have any more questions or concerns, feel free to email me or post a message for me.


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## awinphoto (May 16, 2011)

justsomedude... Just thinking about your tokina situation... The general rule of thumb has been, with 3rd party lenses, to go to camera stores and test several versions of the lens to get the sharpest because QC and repairs would be so troublesome, however in the terms of camera upgrade that gets thrown out of the water since it's pairing with a new camera. When I moved to the 7D, my sigma 135-400mm lens, while having sharp images, especially on continuous focus, just couldn't keep up with the 7D... it was always half a second (or longer) behind and couldn't catch up when I needed the shot, it wasn't there... So it gave me the excuse to upgrade to the 70-200 L... it doesn't have the extra 200mm which i only used once in a blue moon to be honest with myself but was faster, lighter, and an L lens in quality, construction and optics. I understand the tokina is a nice lens, and given the product production, perhaps that could give you an excuse for another lens? If not anything but selling that lens for full market price on craigslist (there's always suckers) and buying a brand new lens in which you can test at the camera store. I know that's not the suggestion you're hoping for but for what it's worth. If not, try sending to a local camera store that does repairs... see what they offer since they aren't necessarily brand exclusive. Maybe it could be something simple we aren't noticing.


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## justsomedude (May 16, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> justsomedude... Just thinking about your tokina situation... The general rule of thumb has been, with 3rd party lenses, to go to camera stores and test several versions of the lens to get the sharpest because QC and repairs would be so troublesome, however in the terms of camera upgrade that gets thrown out of the water since it's pairing with a new camera.



Awin and Neuro - thanks for the responses. I don't think I'm going to kill myself over the Tokina clarity, it's just not worth it. Once I get the 7D back and (hopefully) all my lenses check out OK, I'll give the Tokina one more visit to THK service. If that doesn't fix it, off to the auction block she goes... maybe for a canon 17-55 EF-S, we'll see.

But one last item of concern: what are your thoughts on the vertical "light" band I've been finding in some of my images (I forgot to mention it before)?

http://www.akphotodenver.com/images/7D/band1.tif (warning - 51 MB file!)
http://www.akphotodenver.com/images/7D/band2.tif (warning - 51 MB file!)

This is almost more troublesome than the damn focus issues!


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## awinphoto (May 16, 2011)

justsomedude said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > justsomedude... Just thinking about your tokina situation... The general rule of thumb has been, with 3rd party lenses, to go to camera stores and test several versions of the lens to get the sharpest because QC and repairs would be so troublesome, however in the terms of camera upgrade that gets thrown out of the water since it's pairing with a new camera.
> ...



I see that the 2 images were taken with the 70-200 2.8... Does this banding show up in every picture with every lens in the same location? OR, does it come up in a certain lens combination? That's an interesting phenomenon.


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## justsomedude (May 16, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> I see that the 2 images were taken with the 70-200 2.8... Does this banding show up in every picture with every lens in the same location? OR, does it come up in a certain lens combination? That's an interesting phenomenon.



So far I've only seen it with the 70-200, but then again, I haven't looked through enough photos yet to be sure. Also, it's inconsistent even with the 70-200, and only appears with certain types of lighting. Odd. I'll dig some more into my archives and see what I can find.


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## awinphoto (May 16, 2011)

justsomedude said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I see that the 2 images were taken with the 70-200 2.8... Does this banding show up in every picture with every lens in the same location? OR, does it come up in a certain lens combination? That's an interesting phenomenon.
> ...



Take a look to see if you can see it on any other images on other lenses... perhaps it could be a light leak with the lens but if it is with other lenses, then it could be with the sensor...


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## justsomedude (May 16, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> justsomedude said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



Boom... there it is with the 50mm. Didn't take much searching in my 7D test archive to find one either. Note, exposure and contrast have been modified to make the "band" stand out more. http://www.akphotodenver.com/images/7D/50mm_band.jpg 

I'm finding that it's most obvious in any image that has consistent exposure (meaning little detail) along the right side of the frame. So anything with sky, clouds, or as in this case a uniform wall, it becomes very apparent. 

Man, I just have to laugh at this point. I really have no idea WTF is going on with Canon QC. At this point I'm ready to just dropkick this 7D out the window, take the insurance money, and get a 5D. This is getting f*cking ridiculous. Although if I were smart, I'd learn my lesson and go to Nikon. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment.


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## justsomedude (May 19, 2011)

*Update...* 

Canon has had my 7D exactly one week, and I have not yet received a service update from them. I actually see this as a *good* sign, because when they did their (in)famous "electrical adjustments to the AF assembly", the entire process - door to door - was ten days. The fact that they've had it a week already indicates to me that they must be doing some serious work and/or investigating. In my past dealings with their Irvine service facility, this is the longest I've gone without getting some type of automatic email update. 

Fingers crossed that they are working to get her in tip top shape!


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## awinphoto (May 19, 2011)

justsomedude said:


> *Update...*
> 
> Canon has had my 7D exactly one week, and I have not yet received a service update from them. I actually see this as a *good* sign, because when they did their (in)famous "electrical adjustments to the AF assembly", the entire process - door to door - was ten days. The fact that they've had it a week already indicates to me that they must be doing some serious work and/or investigating. In my past dealings with their Irvine service facility, this is the longest I've gone without getting some type of automatic email update.
> 
> Fingers crossed that they are working to get her in tip top shape!



I'm glad they are taking their time with the camera rather than doing a rush job. I've spent time thinking about your striping issue (banding) and since it's in a particular area, I would hate to think it's a bad sensor... I know they issued (a while ago) a firmware update that dealed with some banding issues, however if you have a fully up to date firmware, then I dont want to do the disservice and make suggestions without really looking at the camera and knowing the situation first hand. 

Fingers crossed and give us updates as you get your camera back.


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## justsomedude (May 24, 2011)

awinphoto said:


> I've spent time thinking about your striping issue (banding) and since it's in a particular area, I would hate to think it's a bad sensor... I know they issued (a while ago) a firmware update that dealed with some banding issues, however if you have a fully up to date firmware, then I dont want to do the disservice and make suggestions without really looking at the camera and knowing the situation first hand.
> 
> Fingers crossed and give us updates as you get your camera back.



Awin,

Here is my latest, and hopefully final, post on this issue. The 7D and 50mm arrived back from Canon yesterday, and both are performing well. A few notes...

*1) * The 7D was reported to be totally within specification. However, Canon did note in the service list that "electrical adjustments" were performed on the sensor. In my first round of tests, the bright vertical band is totally gone. So whatever the "electrical adjustments" were, it appears to have solved the problem. I don't know how it can be "within spec" yet warrant "electrical adjustments", but whatever, it's working - so I'm not going to bitch about their reporting details.

*2) * Since the 7D was JUST in for the AF issue a month ago, I decided to send along my worst Canon performer for this round of service - the 50mm. It turns out the AF board IN the lens was fried. Canon replaced it free of charge.

*3) * As of now, all of my Canon lenses focus very well with my 7D, and I am now a very happy 7D owner. The Tokina AF is still atrocious, and I have just packaged it for a trip out to THK in California.

This AF board issue leads me to wonder - am I frying my AF boards as a function of my own usage procedures? I realize that it is considered VERY bad practice to swap lenses with a camera body powered ON. However, the primary concerns with swapping a lens with a body in the ON position is attracting dust on a positively charged sensor (at least from what I could find). The second biggest concern I could find through my searching seems to be limited reports of frying IS systems on high end IS lenses. The least reported issue is frying an AF board (I actually found no reports of this issue due to hot-swapping lenses, so I guess I'm reporting it now). 

I know I am not the most diligent at turning OFF my body when swapping lenses, but I am thinking I may have fried the AF boards of my Tokina and 50mm by swapping my lenses out improperly. What are your thoughts on this?


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## neuroanatomist (May 24, 2011)

justsomedude said:


> The 7D and 50mm arrived back from Canon yesterday, and both are performing well. ...I am now a very happy 7D owner.



That's great news!



justsomedude said:


> I know I am not the most diligent at turning OFF my body when swapping lenses, but I am thinking I may have fried the AF boards of my Tokina and 50mm by swapping my lenses out improperly. What are your thoughts on this?



I'm also not terribly diligent about avoiding hot-swapping, but it hasn't (yet) caused any apparent issues. At least they fixed it gratis - I'd be annoyed to be charged a few tens of dollars to repair a lens that only costs a few tens of dollars...


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## awinphoto (May 24, 2011)

I'm glad they got it to work well with your canon lenses... Regarding the AF board... a year/year and a half ago or so I sent in my 7d and 17-40 in to be cleaned through CPS and asked for them to double check focus to make 100% I was getting the sharpest images with the lens, might as well... When they came back, the camera was notated that it was within specs however they said there was an issue with the computer chip with the 17-40 and they replaced it/fixed it for free. I dont recall bad focus before i sent it in, i just wanted to double check it, however it is fixed and i haven't had problems since. Regarding the computer chips goes, (AF chips), computer techs treat electricals with gloves and sterile environments, however we, as photographers, aren't nearly as protective of our lenses (especially the electrical contacts) nearly as much. That being said, I'm 100% confident the contacts are protected to an extent to account for this.

Your 50mm 1.8... is that a metal mount or a plastic mount? I've heard of the AF motor frying.... the 50 1.4 is infamous for that (for people who shoot constantly with that lens)... and that lens is almost 3x the price of the 1.8. So... given that, with this lens I wouldn't be as concerned as I would if it happened to my 17-40 or 70-200, etc... 

Lastly, I wouldn't lose sleep over the turning off your camera when changing lenses, etc... I dont do that, but then that could account to my 17-40mm never mind.. haha. But then again I haven't had problems since so who knows. Use your best judgement. If you're in a dry climate with a lot of static electricity, then by all means... if you're in a moist climate, then maybe not so much... You know denver better than I do but keep us updated as you see fit. Keep in touch with your ventures.


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## justsomedude (May 24, 2011)

Thanks for the replies Neuro and Awin. I have a few projects in the coming days, maybe I'll post up the results... in happier threads.


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## DarStone (May 24, 2011)

Hmm, sounds like a problem my brother had with his 7D, ultimately he sent it in to Canon,they updated the firmware and said something about a motherboard issue, it corrected his focus problem and they covered it under warranty.


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## ronderick (May 25, 2011)

Thanks for sharing the experience justsomedude.

My gears will probably go in for maintenance sometimes in June, and I think I should ask the techs to specfically exam my camera's AF (getting a few front-focusing issues recently - don't know if it's just my bad focusing skills or problems with lens/body).


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## maharzan (May 25, 2011)

Cool. I would love to see the new results.


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## K3nt (May 31, 2011)

Just thought I'd chip in with some worthless information.  
Hot-swapping lenses is mostly electrically ok, not the safest way but shouldn't be the culprit. The connectors are protected. What I would worry about is how does the camera react to the change in focal length vs AF motor drive current. 
Some of the AF motors require a slightly different power level, if the camera does not detect this properly when hot-swapping you may indeed burn out the AF motor or associated control electronics. 
Sometimes I forget too, but then I just switch the camera off with the lens off and when attached I switch it back on.
This may or may not be the issue but I have seen this same thing with other 'hot-swappable' electronics when the current requirement changes between components.


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## justsomedude (Jun 3, 2011)

maharzan said:


> Cool. I would love to see the new results.



As promised, I'm posting a follow-up shot from my 7D with a 50mm f/1.8 lens after returning from Canon service. Focus point was on the vertical part of the kettlebell handle, and auto-focus was used. The hand and handle are all damn sharp. This was shot at f/5 - in hindsight I should've stopped it down more to get the entire kettlebell in the DOF. Oh well. 100ISO, with a very tiny amount of USM applied in post.

_click for full-res_




Sorry for the watermarks, but since I'm selling it as a stock image, I have to limit useage.


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## unfocused (Jun 3, 2011)

Nice shot. How'd you light it?


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## justsomedude (Jun 4, 2011)

unfocused said:


> Nice shot. How'd you light it?



Thanks unfocused! 

This shot was lit with two off-camera speedlights triggered by the cheapie Yongnuo RF602 radio triggers. 

The main light was a Canon 580exII bounced off a white umbrella. It was located just above and behind the camera position, about 4' off the gym floor. The umbrella was angled at an approximate 45-degree down angle and aimed directly at the kettlebell/hand area. 

The side light was a Vivitar 285HV gelled red using the old DIY credit card gel holder trick (which only works on the Vivitars). The speedlight was 90-degrees off the camera position, about five feet to the left of the kettlebell. It was mounted on the Yongnuo radio shoe, which was attached to a Gorilla pod. The flash head was no more than 18" off the floor, and aimed directly at the kettlebell - or just five-to-ten degrees to its left (into the image).

Sorry, but I don't remember the power settings on the speedlights. I need to start taking better notes of my setups. :/ 

Here's a graphical depiction:


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## justsomedude (Jun 13, 2011)

After experiencing various AF problems with my Tokina 11-16mm, I finally sent it in to THK Photo Products (Tokina's US servicer) in California for service/repair. It looks like Tokina is quasi-acknowledging a compatibility issue with the 11-16mm lens and the 7D. Here is the first response I received from the THK service representative in my email correspondence with him on June 13, 2011:

[quote author=THK Photo Products]In regards to the Tokina 11-16mm lens you sent in for repair, my technician has informed me that it was necessary to send your lens back to the factory in Japan.

We can offer you a replacement lens or arrange for a refund from the place of purchase.[/quote]

After replying that I would love a replacement (as I truly love the lens), I asked the service rep if a replacement would definitely solve my problem - as I would like to avoid a repeat of the same AF issue. Here is his response:

[quote author=THK Photo Products]Japan has found that when using this lens on the 7D, it works best when used in the Center Focus Mode. In the 19 point AF mode, the camera will automatically focus in on what ever is nearest in the frame, and this can cause soft images., However, when using the Center Focus Mode, the camera will focus in of the center of the subject without any problem.

We will replace the lens for you immediately.[/quote]

However, it is not clear why my original lens would have to be sent back to Japan, unless there is some type of update required on earlier models of the 11-16mm to make it compatible with Center Focus Mode on the 7D.

Anyway, it looks like this should solve my OOF problems, and I'm looking forward to receiving the replacement lens (even if it means I can't use the other focus points). I do love the Tokina 11-16mm, and am glad THK was prompt and responsive to my service request.

Hopefully others will find this information useful.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 13, 2011)

[quote author=THK Photo Products]In the 19 point AF mode, the camera will automatically focus in on what ever is nearest in the frame, and this can cause soft images.[/quote]

Gee, you mean Tokina has discovered the normal behavior of automatic AF point selection? Regarding Automatic AF point selection Mode, Canon states, "_When working with non-moving subjects in the One-Shot AF mode, the EOS 7D starts with all 19 AF points active. The camera will then use the point or points which â€œseeâ€ the nearest subject with adequate detail._" I'm not sure what Tokina thinks the problem is here...


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## justsomedude (Jun 13, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Gee, you mean Tokina has discovered the normal behavior of automatic AF point selection? Regarding Automatic AF point selection Mode, Canon states, "_When working with non-moving subjects in the One-Shot AF mode, the EOS 7D starts with all 19 AF points active. The camera will then use the point or points which â€œseeâ€ the nearest subject with adequate detail._" I'm not sure what Tokina thinks the problem is here...



Neuro,

Maybe I should've been clearer in my original post, but the problem I experienced was in manual AF point selection mode. Manually selecting any of the outside AF points would result in no-focus, and the lens would automatically focus on whatever was nearest to it. So, even if I had selected a distant object with an outside focus point - if something was closer - the lens would focus on that.

That, to me, is a problem - but can be overcome as long as the user is aware of the limitation.


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## unfocused (Jun 13, 2011)

Okay. I was confused too. Because I was also thinking: "isn't that what autofocus does anyway?"

Glad you clarified that. I'm a big fan of the Tokina 11-16. At the risk of unleashing a firestorm of Canon lens fetishists, I have to say I think it's a better lens than the Canon 10-22. I'm going to have to try the center-point focus now. I guess usually, with a lens that wide, I haven't found focus to be as critical, so haven't really noticed the problem. Now, I'm curious.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 13, 2011)

justsomedude said:


> ...the problem I experienced was in manual AF point selection mode. Manually selecting any of the outside AF points would result in no-focus, and the lens would automatically focus on whatever was nearest to it. So, even if I had selected a distant object with an outside focus point - if something was closer - the lens would focus on that.



Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense and also clarifies Tokina's response. It sounds like an issue with Tokina's reverse-engineering of the Canon AF systems not playing nicely with the 7D's AF system. That's a risk with 3rd party lenses, especially for bodies released after the lens. IIRC, in some cases Sigma offered to re-chip lenses in some situations, to correct problems of that nature. Maybe Tokina can/is working something out...which would be good, because by all accounts the 11-16mm is a very nice lens.


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## justsomedude (Jun 13, 2011)

unfocused said:


> Okay. I was confused too. Because I was also thinking: "isn't that what autofocus does anyway?"
> 
> Glad you clarified that. I'm a big fan of the Tokina 11-16. At the risk of unleashing a firestorm of Canon lens fetishists, I have to say I think it's a better lens than the Canon 10-22. I'm going to have to try the center-point focus now. I guess usually, with a lens that wide, I haven't found focus to be as critical, so haven't really noticed the problem. Now, I'm curious.



Unfocused... I totally agree, and feel the Tokina 11-16mm is far superior to the Canon 10-22mm. I've owned both, and after comparing the CA and clarity between the two, I found that the Canon was no match for the Tokina (at least on my 40D). I'm hoping the replacement lens brings similar performance to my 7D.

Regarding the focus issues I had, check some samples on my website. Look for "Tokina" in the title of the problem images.


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## ams (Jul 30, 2011)

I have a hard time getting a sharp image with my new 7D. None of the Sigma lenses I'd used with my old Canons work (looks like I need a major eye exam, even on auto-focus!) and I was told by my local Canon dealer that only the new Canon lenses are compatible. I've rented some Canon lenses, and the images are good, but I wouldn't call them razor sharp. Looks like I'm going to need new lenses. Does anyone have recommendations? For a start I'm looking for a wide angle zoom (12-24 range) and a general zoom (24-200 range).


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 30, 2011)

ams said:


> I have a hard time getting a sharp image with my new 7D. None of the Sigma lenses I'd used with my old Canons work (looks like I need a major eye exam, even on auto-focus!) and I was told by my local Canon dealer that only the new Canon lenses are compatible. I've rented some Canon lenses, and the images are good, but I wouldn't call them razor sharp. Looks like I'm going to need new lenses. Does anyone have recommendations? For a start I'm looking for a wide angle zoom (12-24 range) and a general zoom (24-200 range).



Any Canon EF lens is compatible, they have been made for many years now. The really old FD, and FL lenses are not compatible, and will not even mount to your camera. Older sigma EOS compatible lenses may be incompatible electronically with Digital SLR's, so watch out with used Sigma lenses, try them if in doubt.

The high resolution of the camera body means that to get sharp images when you view them 1:1, the AF must be near perfect. The camera has a facility called Autofocus micro adjustment, and I do it on all my lenses. On the 7d, it makes a huge difference to just tweak the setting by 2 points.

There are lots of writeups on how to do this, here is my favorite for adjusting your body to your lens.

http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/focus-chart

You have two options, one is to adjust the body for all lenses, the second is to adjust it for each lens.

I always adjust it for each lens. for zooms, I use the longest focal length. Always adjust at maximum aperture.

**************************************************

The second thing is to realize that the tiny pixels in a 18 mp sensor are more susceptable to shaking motion of the camera, so if you do not have IS, or have it tripod mounted, keep the shutter speed to 1/triple the actual focal length as a mimimum. Conventional wisdom is to use 1/equavalent focal length.

So, for a 100mm lens and no IS, use 1/320. Conventional wisdom would say 1/160 sec, and that works well on the lower MP cameras. You can experiment to find what works for you.

If your subject is moving, much higher shutter speeds may be required to freeze action.


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