# First Full Frame...on a budget.



## Philshoz (Mar 27, 2015)

I always like the feedback you guys give on here.

I have a 7D and 40D and want to know what you would recommend for a lower priced first full frame body please.

Don't need video, fast fps or high ISO, just want it for good light landscapes.

I was thinking a 5D MKII.

Thanks in advance.


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## mrzero (Mar 27, 2015)

On a budget, you only have three Canon options. 6D, 5DII, or the original 5D. If you can afford the 6D, get it. The 5DII is great but the 6D does all that and then some. Prices for the 6D right now are at an all-time low. 

Some think the 6D Mark II is coming soon but I doubt it, and when it does arrive, it will be much more expensive. Also, I expect the prices for the original 6D will tick back up a little bit when that happens. So, go for it now.

If you can't afford that, then a used 5DII is the next best option. I haven't priced them out lately but I don't know that you'll save that much, and a new 6D will last longer anyway.


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## DRR (Mar 27, 2015)

I'm a proud owner of a 5DII and it's a great camera, but I will say that right now, a used 6D represents the best value in the category. I've seen used 6D's for as low as $1100 (and to be honest I don't even look that hard). 5DII's seem to be in the $900-1000 range. This is just from anecdotal observation.

Another $100-200 for the extras and improvements that the 6D offers, would seem well worth it to me.

5D is a good choice too at $400-500 but just know this is a 10 year old camera. For landscapes though, it's still a great camera, and would be a good choice to add to your kit if you want a FF option without selling what you have.

You could reasonably sell your 40D and get a 5D for a very minimal investment, and then you have two very complementary bodies in your kit.


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## Valvebounce (Mar 27, 2015)

Hi Philshoz. 
I have the same gear and have aso been wondering about FF on a budget, but was looking at the 1Ds range and wondering which would give more bang for buck, assuming I can raise the bucks! 
Not keen on the idea of a 6D due to the different ergonomics, 7D and 40D are very similar, as I'm sure you are aware, making for easy transition between the two, I would like to maintain that condition if at all possible. 
Hope you don't consider this a hijack, not my intention, rather hoping it is adding to the discussion. 

Cheers, Graham.


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## unfocused (Mar 27, 2015)

Are you in the U.S.? 

Canon Price Watch street price on the 6D is $1,249.

http://www.canonpricewatch.com/product/04039/Canon-EOS-6D-price.html

You didn't say what lenses you have. If you don't have an all around lens for full frame, you can get the 6D/ 24-105mm STM kit for $1,549 on the CPW street price offer. 

http://www.canonpricewatch.com/product/05643/Canon-EOS-6D-with-24-105mm-f3.5-5.6-IS-STM-Kit-price.html

Or, you can get it with the 24-105 "L" for $1,799.

http://www.canonpricewatch.com/product/04043/Canon-EOS-6D-with-24-105mm-f4L-Kit-price.html


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## RLPhoto (Mar 27, 2015)

I regularly see 5d2 and 5dc for 900$ & 400$. I'd definitely look into Craigslist to find some deals.


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## Philshoz (Mar 28, 2015)

Great input guys, thanks a lot.

To answer a couple of questions: I live in France and regularly use a site called Leboncoin.fr so lots of bargains to be had on there e.g.: 5d II 900€. Just checked out the 6D and they are on there for about 200€ more, so that could be the way to go.

As for my kit: 24-105 f4, 50 f1.4, 100-400 mk1, 100 macro 2.8 mk1 and a Tamron 11-18. 

I shoot mainly landscapes and surfing.


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## Sporgon (Mar 28, 2015)

Cheapest option : 5D - still very good at low ISO, 13 mp produces superb resolution when used properly, but in terms of operating system, battery etc it is out of date.

Used 5DII and used 6D seem to be about the same price ( in the UK at least - 5DII holding, 6D coming down). IMO the only reason to get a 6D over a 5DII is high ISO performance. If you want high ISO ( over 400) the 6D wins hands down. I would also say that with modern lenses the 6D AF is more accurate, or at least more consistently accurate. However you say high ISO performance and AF are not a priority, so if it were me I'd get a 5DII. 

Unlike the 5D, the 5DII is still 'up to date' in terms of operating system, rear LCD, battery etc.


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## Philshoz (Mar 28, 2015)

Thanks Sporgon. Nice link to your photos. I was at Ayesgarth last September, not a lot of water though.





Sporgon said:


> Cheapest option : 5D - still very good at low ISO, 13 mp produces superb resolution when used properly, but in terms of operating system, battery etc it is out of date.
> 
> Used 5DII and used 6D seem to be about the same price ( in the UK at least - 5DII holding, 6D coming down). IMO the only reason to get a 6D over a 5DII is high ISO performance. If you want high ISO ( over 400) the 6D wins hands down. I would also say that with modern lenses the 6D AF is more accurate, or at least more consistently accurate. However you say high ISO performance and AF are not a priority, so if it were me I'd get a 5DII.
> 
> Unlike the 5D, the 5DII is still 'up to date' in terms of operating system, rear LCD, battery etc.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 28, 2015)

Philshoz said:


> I was thinking a 5D MKII.



Nice camera, but you have to look for a really competitive used price now that the 6d is so cheap (including warranty!).

The sensor of the 6d is bumped up significantly concerning the banding even on low iso, and has better dynamic range (well, better for Canon that is). Unless you want 1/8k speed, more durable shutter and the larger 5d grip I'd say go 6d. Or, my real landscape recommendation, look for a used d800 if consider switching systems.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 28, 2015)

On a budget (that is subjective) but for outright IQ 6D, bang for the buck 1Ds MkIII.


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## Sporgon (Mar 28, 2015)

Philshoz said:


> Thanks Sporgon. Nice link to your photos. I was at Ayesgarth last September, not a lot of water though.



Thanks for that. My Aysgarth pictures were taken on the 6D 



Marsu42 said:


> The sensor of the 6d is bumped up significantly concerning the banding even on low iso, and has better dynamic range (well, better for Canon that is



I can honestly sat that I have _never_ had issues with banding on the 5DII. In practical use I find virtually _no_ difference between the 5DII and the 6D at low ISO, the tiny difference being not dynamic range, which I would say is identical, but the 6D has a little more shadow latitude. 



privatebydesign said:


> On a budget (that is subjective) but for outright IQ 6D, bang for the buck 1Ds MkIII.



When I read your post I thought 1DsIII in the UK would about £500 more than a used 6D, so I had a quick look on e bay and they have come down a fair bit now, much closer to those cameras in used prices. You've given me the idea


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## lintoni (Mar 28, 2015)

Yes, I've been looking at 1DsIII prices over the last month or two. I'm thinking that a few more might hit the market once the 5Ds/5DsR become available...


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## martti (Mar 28, 2015)

The 5DIII is already below the 2000 dollar limit and it will go further down pretty soon.
If it is beyond your scope, the 6D is your only reasonable choice. You do not want yesterday's technology.


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## privatebydesign (Mar 28, 2015)

martti said:


> The 5DIII is already below the 2000 dollar limit and it will go further down pretty soon.
> If it is beyond your scope, the 6D is your only reasonable choice. You do not want yesterday's technology.



Stop talking nonesense. The 1DS MkIII might well be 'yesterdays technology' but how many files from them have you worked? The sensor gives absolutely nothing away to the modern cameras other than high iso capabilities, indeed at the low end they are still regarded as the best IQ Canon has ever made. The AF system is leagues above the 6D system and the metering, viewfinder, build quality, and battery, amongst other things, betters both the 6D and the 5D MkIII. It is also much cheaper than a naked 5D MkIII and includes a grip.


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## Philshoz (Mar 28, 2015)

Thanks for more info but as it says in the title...."on a budget"

A secondhand 5D III over here will be at least 2,000€ in top condition.

I want to spend 1,000€ max, that's just over 1k $ right now. 

I have pointed out in other posts you are lucky in the US to get fantastic value for money when buying your kit. Spare a moment for poor old France with it's terrible €uro rates...!!

As for switching to Nikon, yikes.


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## martti (Mar 28, 2015)

1.4 kg of technology from 2008


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## martti (Mar 28, 2015)

Oui, la France...ici, on peut trouver, a ce prix-la, un 5DII si le vendeur est deseperé...
Un 5D, j'ai vu sur Leboncoin a 500 euros. On peut toujours discuter, celui avec le fric c'est lui le roi...


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## privatebydesign (Mar 28, 2015)

martti said:


> 1.4 kg of technology from 2008



And clearly you are not considering the 'budget' part of the question and you have never worked with 1Ds MkIII files.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 28, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > The sensor of the 6d is bumped up significantly concerning the banding even on low iso, and has better dynamic range (well, better for Canon that is
> ...



To clarify: I didn't say it's an "issue", but that it's "significant" . That's to me, of course, depending on shooting and post style, if you can bracket or not, ymmv.

When I had a 5d2 loan for a day and worked with the files I was very surprised that the pattern banding is just as I remember it from my 60d - if you raise shadows moderately, it shows, and if you raise 'em a lot you're a dead duck.

Say what you will about the 6d, and I'm rather critic of it - but if any data is there at the left edge of the histogram, you can expect to be able to use it. The only limit is the lack of shadow *resolution" and not noise or banding.


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## sandymandy (Mar 28, 2015)

france is in Europe so check other european countries too. UK often has great offers aswell...


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## wsmith96 (Mar 28, 2015)

I did the same a while back and bought a 5D. It was $425 and came with a bunch of accessories. It's replaced my 60D as my everyday camera. Image quality is nice, but like everyone says, the lower the ISO the better. I still get good quality at ISO 1250 to 1600, but quality improves quite a bit below 1250.

With money saved on not buying new, I bought a new 50mm f1.4 and a new 24-105L. Both perform great on this body. Of course, YMMV.

Let us know what you decided upon.


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## digital-jesus (Mar 28, 2015)

So until iso 400-800 both 5d and 5D3 have the same image quality ?


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## wsmith96 (Mar 28, 2015)

I don't own a 5D III for a continued comparison, but I have used one. From the few images that I have from the 5DIII, the 5DIII wins on resolution (obviously) but for printing up to 11"x14" I didn't see much difference. I typically don't print higher than 13"x19". With a good lens and everyday printing, I'm not sure I could tell the difference on a printed picture given the ISO was up to 800. Now past that, the 5D III is the winner hands down.

-w


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## sdsr (Mar 29, 2015)

I agree with others that the 6D would be a good choice. Here's another, rather odd (perhaps) suggestion: since you say you'll be using the camera for landscapes, you don't really need AF, right? Not sure about France, but in the U.S. the cheapest FF option for a new camera is the Sony A7 (the original, not its successor with IBIS) which, during the most recent round of Sony deals, could be bought for c. $1000-$1100 from a reputable store like B&H. With an adapter you can use any Canon EF lenses you may have (some will AF slowly but accurately, others may not AF at all, but manual focusing on mirrorless cameras with EVFs is easy) and the results will look great, especially at the low ISOs you say you'll be using (the 6D is probably better at high ISOs). And, while on the subject of going FF on a budget, note that with a camera body that makes MF easy adding FF lenses can be shockingly inexpensive if you buy old manual lenses, many of which are superb (including many made by Canon, lest anyone reading this thinks I'm trying to undermine Canon!).


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## martti (Mar 29, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> martti said:
> 
> 
> > 1.4 kg of technology from 2008
> ...



Hmmm...but I can go to eBay and look at the prices there and see that the 6D bought new is cheaper, more recent , lighter and comes with a warranty. 

See for yourself: http://www.ebay.com/bhp/canon-1ds-mark-iii


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## privatebydesign (Mar 29, 2015)

martti said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > martti said:
> ...



I was referring to your suggestion to the OP get a 5D MkIII, you then went on to say _"If it is beyond your scope, the 6D is your only reasonable choice"_, I was merely pointing out that you were wrong. There is a very good choice between the two and the 1Ds MkIII has many advantages over the 6D.


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## Hillsilly (Mar 29, 2015)

I've got an older 1Ds Mkii, which is currently selling for significantly less than your budget limit. At ISO 100 and 200, the image quality is on par with ever other Canon camera. The only reason to spend more / buy newer is if you want cleaner images at high ISOs and/or video features.

The 1Ds Mkii and newer Mkiii cameras have different feature sets to the 5Dii. Depending on your uses, they are all good choices.


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## Philshoz (Mar 29, 2015)

The budget is key.

It is pointless looking at eBay.com, sales tax, import duty makes it too expensive.



sandymandy said:


> france is in Europe so check other european countries too. UK often has great offers aswell...



I am all over the UK sites, bought my 7D from a UK supplier.

I am still favouring the 5D II, similar ergonomics as the 7D.

The hunt goes on.


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## mrzero (Mar 30, 2015)

From a practicality standpoint, for the current owner of a 7D, another plus is that the 5DII and 6D use the same battery and charger. While everyone debates the 1DsIII, just remember that it uses its own batteries and a much larger charger.


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## ksgal (Mar 30, 2015)

My thoughts. 

Just got a 'new to me' 5D mark II used, lower shutter count with grip. 

I'm still figuring out the camera, but for ergonomics, I'm coming from a 50D and it is very similar and easy for me to navigate and figure out where things are because of it. I also have a 7D mark II I got back in October. I've never used a 6D. I think not having the joystick with a 6D would frustrate the heck out of me, so I'm glad I have the 5DII. I'm not much of a landscaper, to be honest, so take it all with a grain of salt.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 30, 2015)

ksgal said:


> I think not having the joystick with a 6D would frustrate the heck out of me, so I'm glad I have the 5DII.



This is a main usability difference, but with so few af points - and the outer points very being very dodgy - I don't think it's a/the (main) drawback of the 6d. It might be a bit more annoying to move around the 1:1 preview with the cursor keys though.


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## ksgal (Mar 30, 2015)

I use the joystick a lot, more than af points. Not knocking the camera, but I also use it on the 7D2 so it is easier to switch back and forth between the same type of layout. OP has a 7D and 40D so is also use to the joystick. JMHO. YMMV.


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## Sporgon (Mar 30, 2015)

ksgal said:


> I use the joystick a lot, more than af points. Not knocking the camera, but I also use it on the 7D2 so it is easier to switch back and forth between the same type of layout. OP has a 7D and 40D so is also use to the joystick. JMHO. YMMV.



Seems like the used marketplace agrees with you. As the new price of the 6D has come down so has the second hand prices - naturally. But the 5DII hasn't continued to maintain the differential; it's held up better. so despite being out of production and not a current model a used 5DII is only a little less than a used 6D. The same if its a 6D WG. I find this quite surprising. Either it's the '5D' name or people prefer the ergonomics, 'cos it sure as hell ain't as good as the 6D at high ISO.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 30, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> Either it's the '5D' name or people prefer the ergonomics, 'cos it sure as hell ain't as good as the 6D at high ISO.



My guess is that people realize that the 6d has written "cheap" all over it - and (probably rightly so) suspect that a used 5d will hold longer than a used 6d. Indicators are the longer shutter durability (5d = 150% of 6d), slower x-sync & shutter. Last not least, of course the bigger 5d feels "sturdier" as it's bigger and has more metal components.

Still, I find that given the tech advances of the 6d paying this premium for a used 5d2 should be well considered as it makes the used 5d2 on the market seem "overpriced" to me. I know, this isn't possible on an open market, just my personal feeling


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## Sporgon (Mar 30, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Either it's the '5D' name or people prefer the ergonomics, 'cos it sure as hell ain't as good as the 6D at high ISO.
> ...



You know it wouldn't surprise me if the shutter in the 6D isn't exactly the same one as in the 5DII, and Canon just say it's 100,000 cycles or whatever, and restrict it to 1/4000 etc for marketing separation.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 30, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> You know it wouldn't surprise me if the shutter in the 6D isn't exactly the same one as in the 5DII, and Canon just say it's 100,000 cycles or whatever, and restrict it to 1/4000 etc for marketing separation.



Being at 90k with my 6d, I really, really and sincerely do hope so. Another reason for the shutter duration limitation of course are service costs (if someone manages to shoot 100k-150k inside the warranty period).

That's the general problem with these specs - you cannot tell. That's because on the same not, I have the subjective feeling that the 6d's cursor buttons and the wheel aren't exactly built for eternity (say vs. my 60d), but I could be completely wrong.


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## Sporgon (Mar 30, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > You know it wouldn't surprise me if the shutter in the 6D isn't exactly the same one as in the 5DII, and Canon just say it's 100,000 cycles or whatever, and restrict it to 1/4000 etc for marketing separation.
> ...



The rear command wheel of the 6D is my main complaint regarding the camera. I had assumed it was identical to the 60/70D because it is identical configuration. Are you saying the 60D doesn't have such a dreadful imprecise 'Fisher Price' toy feeling to it as the 6D ? 

Soon I am going to decide whether to sell the 5DII and get another 6D, so I have an identical pair, or keep the 5DII, sell the 6 and get a 5DIII. I don't find that the 5DII and 6D mix 'n match very well. Everything is purposely different on them, such as rear ergonomics, play back, flash compensation etc.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 30, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> Are you saying the 60D doesn't have such a dreadful imprecise 'Fisher Price' toy feeling to it as the 6D ?



Yes, the 60d has a snappy "click" sound to the wheel, making the feeling much more precise. Note that's just the overall feeling, and it's maybe a bit easier to blindly turn the wheel one position when in a hurry because of the better feedback. But it doesn't mean anything about the durability. I hope. 



Sporgon said:


> Soon I am going to decide whether to sell the 5DII and get another 6D, so I have an identical pair, or keep the 5DII, sell the 6 and get a 5DIII. I don't find that the 5DII and 6D mix 'n match very well.



Though call, I understand the predicament. But as 5d3 and 6d are very close in iq, and if you have a "preferred" camera and don't shoot 50/50, I'd go 5d3+5d2 because of (predicted) longer shutter and better sealing on the 5d3. And you'll have at least one camera with a decent af system :-o


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## Sporgon (Mar 31, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Are you saying the 60D doesn't have such a dreadful imprecise 'Fisher Price' toy feeling to it as the 6D ?
> ...



Well I'm appalled. Isn't the 60D about half the price of a 6D ? It probably costs Canon more to engineer that crap feeling into the wheel anyway. As a customer I acknowledge that the manufacturer will reduce features on a cheaper model; the AF system compared with the 5DIII for instance, but to fit a rear command wheel that feels like it's just come out of a Christmas Cracker when exactly the same thing is fitted to a higher standard on a much cheaper model is _annoying_. 

I had always assumed that the wheel on the 60 and 70D must be just as naf.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 31, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> Well I'm appalled. Isn't the 60D about half the price of a 6D?



Sure, but the 60d is way older, too. And I'm not sure if my feeling really relates to the build quality. But I'm happy at least someone here shares my reservation about the 6d, though obviously the raw iq is top-notch for current Canon sensor tech...


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## Sporgon (Mar 31, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > Well I'm appalled. Isn't the 60D about half the price of a 6D?
> ...



The only camera that used the smaller wheel and the eight way controller before the 6D came along was the 60D. So Canon already had this wheel/8 way controller module. Instead of simply using that module they created a version which has an inferior 'feel'. Hmmm......I think that was unnecessary.


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## siegsAR (Mar 31, 2015)

Grab the 6D. I got mine last week. Its very cheap now.

Regarding the 100k shutter for the 6D, well there's this guy that got his 6D past 600k plus before it finally failed three weeks ago.
I think Canon told him its the shutter assembly that needs to be replaced.

No bull, he's the owner of the shop where i got my 6D.


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