# POLL: The 2nd ff camera in 2014 will be...



## Marsu42 (Nov 28, 2013)

What do you think - will the 6d be updated with a above-mediocre af system and dual pixel af for the masses, or will the 5d3 at last get a real sensor upgrade above the good ol' 5d2 and become the even more expensive 5d4?

Edit: I changed the poll question to make it's clear "ff in 2014" might as well be just an announcement, and actual 2014 releases might be "just" lenses. Still, the question is which ff updates comes first as this might matter to potential buyers of the current models.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 28, 2013)

If Canon considers that 6D is a "Rebel full frame" then it should be updated in a short time. If we observe that T5i has 9 focus points ALL CROSS-TYPE, we can say that 6D is experiencing shame, since in practice only has one usable focal point. It would be something like Nikon D600, has been updated D610 to correct the problem for the oil sensor.


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## Sporgon (Nov 28, 2013)

I can't see Canon announcing a 5D III replacement in 2014, - unless they have some fundamental new tech that they want to share with us.


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## Harv (Nov 28, 2013)

I don't see the 5D3 or the 1Dx being updated any time soon. That would be too short a life cycle for their pro cameras if the past teaches us anything.

I think we'll likely see the long anticipated 1Dxs, high MP camera that has been rumored for some time and possibly an updated 6D as the usual life cycle of prosumer cameras would be consistent with that.

Just sayin'


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## Axilrod (Nov 28, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> What do you think - will the 6d be updated with a above-mediocre af system and dual pixel af for the masses, or will the 5d3 at last get a real sensor upgrade above the good ol' 5d2 and become the even more expensive 5d4?



The 5D3 did get an updated sensor from the 5D2....sure it wasn't a big jump in megapixels or anything but it's definitely a better sensor overall.


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## silvestography (Nov 28, 2013)

I'd love a 6dII that's basically a full frame 70d:
- 20mp sensor (I'd be fine with the same one)
- Dual Pixel AF
- 19pt AF, but with the same -3ev sensitivity (and more spread than the current 6d)
- 5+ fps

I'd also like to see some better video features like a headphone jack and more framerates (the d5300 can do 1080 @ 60p, I don't see why a 6dII couldn't).

The 6d offers a lot more room for improvement than the 5dIII, though canon doesn't seem very committed to its entry level full frame offering to me. Only time will tell, I suppose.


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## RomainF (Nov 29, 2013)

silvestography said:


> I'd love a 6dII that's basically a full frame 70d:
> - 20mp sensor (I'd be fine with the same one)
> - Dual Pixel AF
> - 19pt AF, but with the same -3ev sensitivity (and more spread than the current 6d)
> ...



With that 6D2, 19 cross types focus points, 5fps, 20mpx and the 6D iso abilities, why would you even consider buying a 5D3 ? I don't think the 6D can get that good. 
The 5D3 should be upgraded a lot : better fps, about 8, which became a real "fast burst" mode. And then, with a 5D3 with a burst, why would you spend double $ to get a 1Dx which would only offers a somehow better AF and ISO, but not "that" better ? Then the 1Dx must be updated : 16fps, clean 12800 and faultless AF ? That'd be great but i don't see these improvements coming so early.


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## unfocused (Nov 29, 2013)

Axilrod said:


> The 5D3 did get an updated sensor from the 5D2....sure it wasn't a big jump in megapixels or anything but it's definitely a better sensor overall.



+1. I get tired of people acting like there was no improvement in sensor performance. Definitely an improvement in high ISO.



RomainF said:


> silvestography said:
> 
> 
> > I'd love a 6dII that's basically a full frame 70d:
> ...



I do doubt Canon would up the fps, unless unless they pull a "7D" on the 5DIII firmware and up the fps of the 5DIII, which is very plausible. I could see Canon at some point extending the life of the 5DIII with improved firmware...good customer relations, reinvigorates the model and buys them time.

The rest of Silvestography's list – same mp but with a dual pixel sensor and a 7D/70D type autofocus – seems very possible. 

I don't think these improvements would impact the 5DIII all that much. I suspect that the strongest selling points for the 5DIII over the 6D remain the build, ergonomics and auto-focus. (that was my case). 

People on forums worry way too much about one line cannibalizing another. Companies tend to be more concerned about preventing the competition from getting your money. 6D or 5D – in the long run what matters is they've got you hooked and know you will keep mainlining lenses and strobes until you are broke.


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## klickflip (Nov 29, 2013)

5D IVideo lol definitely!

24-28 mp sensor 2.5K video, Dual Pixel AF forsure, full raw out hdmi out, maybe dual outs for monitoring and capturing. 

Pretty much sure that they could make one now if they wanted to. 

That will leave the 6D to be like someone said a FF rebel at much lower price, maybe even $999 by end 2014. 

this may mess up the 7D2 pricing tho.. I know that a different topic but think we have to look at the bigger picture, 

So I'll add a 7D2 mid 2014 that effectively replaces the old 1D4.. which it may verywell be a reworking of that with a new sensor (maybe 28MP) at $2.5K for sports on a budget and amature wildlife etc.


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## Richard8971 (Nov 29, 2013)

Hard to say what Canon is up to. I would definitely say that a high MP, high end EOS 1Dx (not to be confused with the 1DX) is in the lineup but the second body? 

The 5D3 is still pretty much leading edge and the 6D is also pretty new so I can't imagine a "replacement" for either one anytime soon. (perhaps 2015) With the rumored 7D2 leading the APS-c lineup again I would venture a guess that a second FF body (IF one is released) would be a smaller version of the high end EOS 1Dx like the Nikon D800 or D800E.

Seems reasonable to me IF Canon follows Nikon's current offerings. Canon has been stagnant lately in terms of their camera offerings and sadly so has Nikon to a degree. 

They offer so many camera bodies that are so similar to each other it really makes you wonder why? 

Think about it. With the 60D with a 18MP sensor and shooting at 5.3fps and $600 cheaper than the 7D (not talking about sales) why would you buy the 7D? MOST people don't realize how certain features affect real world shooting, so price DOES play in in buying a first camera. Canon has so many cameras that are so similar it doesn't make sense.

I mean really? The SL1, T5i and the T3? THREE entry level cameras? Why? The T5i is a great camera, ONE entry level camera is fine, really.

Almost seems like Canon cares more about video shooting lately than they do the still segment. Hey Canon! I DON'T shoot video with my 7D! Never will! 

D


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 29, 2013)

Neither. It's "The Year of the Lens," remember? :-X


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## Zv (Nov 29, 2013)

Richard8971 said:


> Hard to say what Canon is up to. I would definitely say that a high MP, high end EOS 1Dx (not to be confused with the 1DX) is in the lineup but the second body?
> 
> The 5D3 is still pretty much leading edge and the 6D is also pretty new so I can't imagine a "replacement" for either one anytime soon. (perhaps 2015) With the rumored 7D2 leading the APS-c lineup again I would venture a guess that a second FF body (IF one is released) would be a smaller version of the high end EOS 1Dx like the Nikon D800 or D800E.
> 
> ...



Because entry level is where they make the most money and that money then gets used for R&D of the higher end stuff and new lenses. 

The SL1 is marketed at, well let's be honest, young ladies. It's a small and compact and fits in a handbag. 

The t5i is marketed at the beginner, and those on a budget that want functionality and good IQ. 

The 60/70D is for the hobbyist and enthusiast, but likely those who find the rebel a bit too small and plasticky. It fits a certain profile. I can't quite figure what myself but I'm sure it exists! 

The 7D is for serious photographers who need the speed and durability but aren't pro and don't have thousands in the bank. A poor mans sports camera. 

It's all about choice. Why are there 50 types of potato chips? Why not just one pack in one size? Some people are hungrier than others just like some photogs want more camera than others.


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## emag (Nov 29, 2013)

.....EOS 1V MkII


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## sama (Nov 29, 2013)

I guess none of the above. It could possibly be a high MP 1DXs and a FF M/mirrorless.


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## Dylan777 (Nov 29, 2013)

I don't understand this poll, since both cameras are less than 2yrs old.

2014 might be high MP FF and/or 7D II as super crop


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## 9VIII (Nov 29, 2013)

The rumor says two _announcements_ in 2014, with availability in early 2015. That is right on schedule for the 5D upgrade.


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## Ruined (Nov 29, 2013)

Canon EOS 6.5 Duo, the first ever camera with both FF *and* APS-C sensors!


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## Janbo Makimbo (Nov 29, 2013)

A 5D upgrade, its specs are dated for the pirce!!


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## Ruined (Nov 29, 2013)

On a serious note, if I had to pick between the two I'd go 5D4.

Reasoning:

* 6D does have shortcomings such as less precise AF, but it also has some new tech like wifi builtin - and arguably better low light photo IQ if you take autofocus out of the picture. Plus, for those who are not gearhounds, the less precise AF of the 6D is not really a big deal as it was used in the 5D & 5D2.

* If 6D gets a 70D-quality autofocus *and* DPAF before 5D does, that will make 5D significantly more unattractive for the price.

* Thus, if 6D is to be revised and not disrupt the pricing scheme, it would only be for minor stuff like a touchscreen in menus/preview - which does not seem worth releasing a whole new camera for, as the current AF system couldn't even handle Rebel T4i-esque liveview touch focus.

* 5D3 is a spectacular camera, but I think the low light performance could be a little better with the newer tech now available. Also it is missing builtin wifi and could benefit from DPAF if implemented in an innovative fashion. Not to mention, they could always bump the MP a bit. Would also like to see touchscreen enabled for DPAF & pinch to zoom photo preview, a bit more natural than using zoom keys and joystick.


So I think in this case they should release 5D4 before 6D2, as I think a highly enhanced 6D would result in Canon needing to drop 5D price - doubt they want to!


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## Janbo Makimbo (Nov 29, 2013)

On a more serious note.... More or less what I said!!



Ruined said:


> On a serious note, if I had to pick between the two I'd go 5D4.
> 
> Reasoning:
> 
> ...


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## alexanderferdinand (Nov 29, 2013)

None of them.
Way too early for both.
A high MP in 2014: maybe.


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## Marsu42 (Nov 29, 2013)

Ruined said:


> Plus, for those who are not gearhounds, the less precise AF of the 6D is not really a big deal as it was used in the 5D & 5D2.



... the difference to back then simply is that there is now fierce ff competition, unlike 5d1/5d2 times, so no matter how the af system rates in *absolute* terms it is so mediocre it *could* get a little refresh w/o endangering the 5d3.

A d600->d610-like 6d update with a full-cross center point and dual_pixel af would still stay way below the 5d3, but as a 6d owner I admit I don't want my investment protected a bit and don't want to see Canon go the Nikon way.


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## Niki (Nov 29, 2013)

5D4 announcement in …2014…available???


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## Rienzphotoz (Nov 29, 2013)

Neither ... the poll should have i ncluded the option "None of the above"
The reason, I feel that it won't be either of those cameras:
1. 5D MK III sells extremely well and will continue to do so in 2014.
2. 6D did not have dirty/oily sensor like Nikon D600 and will easily sell more than D600, D610, a7 & a7r combined


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## Marsu42 (Nov 29, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> I don't understand this poll, since both cameras are less than 2yrs old.



The [CR1] says so, the "2 new ff in 2014" is just the occasion to do the poll...



Rienzphotoz said:


> Neither ... the poll should have i ncluded the option "None of the above"



Umyes, sorry, you're correct - actually the succession order is the interesting thing, not if anything is actually released or announced December 31, 2014 or Jan 1, 2015. I amended the poll to make clear your vote is mainly about what comes first, that's why I didn't include a "neither" option.


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## Rienzphotoz (Nov 29, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand this poll, since both cameras are less than 2yrs old.
> ...


I see ... but I still think that with "None of the above" option, you most likely will get a better idea of what people think. Cheers


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## Marsu42 (Nov 29, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> I see ... but I still think that with "None of the above" option, you most likely will get a better idea of what people think. Cheers



Ok, I'll try to think harder next time when choosing poll options  but I cannot change the poll that way now as it would invalidate the older votes.

Btw one reason for 5d4 before 6d I forgot to mention is that imho the 6d is designed to be produced very cheap, low specs (only 1/4000s shutter, low shutter duration, plastic'ish body) and old 5d2 parts... so knowing Canon they'll just go on selling it while they make a healthy profit and until no one buys it anymore.

The 5d3 on the other hand is one of their flagship products and they probably want to keep up or be better in tech comparisons vs. the Nikon/Sony competition, even if this means an even more expensive 5d4 than the 5d3 was ($3500, shudder). RGB metering anyone?


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## Rienzphotoz (Nov 29, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> even if this means an even more expensive 5d4 than the 5d3 was ($3500, shudder).


Yikes! ... Please God no more price increases.


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## Rams_eos (Nov 29, 2013)

I would think a 6D2 make sense. It had low competition from the Dusty Nikon D600.
Now Nikon has a removed the dust and launched the D610, the life of the 6D may be less quiet. ???
I would not be surprised canon releasing a 6D2 with a few details changes (like Rebel 600D to 650D) to please the early adopters of this “consumer” FF. They have done it a lot in the past.
A new screen (maybe touch one), a slightly improved AF and some Digic improvement and, Bingo!
You have a clear winner to beat the D610 and Sony’s friends.


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## tomscott (Nov 29, 2013)

Im not sure where the 5DMKIII fails tbh... I love mine and there is very few areas I feel it needs updating. Its not even 2 years old. Stupid thread.


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## Rienzphotoz (Nov 29, 2013)

tomscott said:


> Im not sure where the 5DMKIII fails tbh... I love mine and there is very few areas I feel it needs updating. Its not even 2 years old


+1
but I would have preferred to have an in built intervalometer function in the 5D MK III


tomscott said:


> Stupid thread.


A bit harsh ... I don't think it is stupid


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## Marsu42 (Nov 29, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> but I would have preferred to have an in built intervalometer function in the 5D MK III



Magic Lantern has it.



Rienzphotoz said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > Stupid thread.
> ...



I guess what our esteemed fellow CR member probably wanted to say in his very own way would be that a replacement is stupid, not the thread about a rumor saying so.

And not to put too much a fine point on it, I'd say _pecunia non olet_ as model policy is not driven by what makes sense, but what sells for what profit.


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## Rienzphotoz (Nov 29, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > but I would have preferred to have an in built intervalometer function in the 5D MK III
> ...


Yes, but it is still in Alpha stage and one has to re-run the firmware update after every time the camera is powered off. Also, I recently installed the Alpha firmware for EOS-M and whenever I try to shoot RAW footage using the Magic Lantern intervalamoter function, I get several corrupted RAW files ... but it works fine with JPG ... so, at the moment I am not comfortable installing Magic Lantern on my main camera ... for this reason I was looking to get a used or refurbished 60D to do time lapse during my December vacation to Australia ... that brings me to the question: do you know any CR members who are Australian? coz I started this thread asking for advice http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=18339.msg341290#new 




Marsu42 said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > tomscott said:
> ...


Are you sure ;D


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## StudentOfLight (Nov 29, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> +1
> but I would have preferred to have an in built intervalometer function in the 5D MK III



Why have a firmware intervalometer when you can purchase a TC-80N3 separately for $129?


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## Rienzphotoz (Nov 29, 2013)

StudentOfLight said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > +1
> ...


Yes, I am aware of that ... in fact I am going to buy one from B&H for $42 (its the Vello version) ... bu it would have been nicer to have in-camera for these reasons:
1. Don't have to carry another additional accessory to carry

2. Don't have to worry about carrying another battery or two to make sure the accessory is working

3. It may not seem like a big deal to carry a small remote, (the Vello version is taller than the camera) but when you are already carrying lots of "small" accessories (especially during vacations), one more small thing just adds to the problem of forgetting to carry it or worse yet, losing it on the field ... having an in-camera intervelometer eliminates that problem. Basically in one word: awesome convenience .... ok that's 2 words.


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## Marsu42 (Nov 29, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Yes, but it is still in Alpha stage and one has to re-run the firmware update after every time the camera is powered off. Also, I recently installed the Alpha firmware for EOS-M and whenever I try to shoot RAW footage using the Magic Lantern intervalamoter function, I get several corrupted RAW files ... but it works fine with JPG



Please be sure to report this bug to the ml forum, right? https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/issues/new

I understand you don't want to use ml on 5d3 right now, let alone in a production camera (though you can deactivate ml anytime by pressing SET when starting the camera)... I just couldn't live with the broken auto-iso with flash, so I use it on my 6D no matter the early stage.


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## Sporgon (Nov 29, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> And not to put too much a fine point on it, I'd say _pecunia non olet_ as model policy is not driven by what makes sense, but what sells for what profit.



Exactly; that's why the 5D IV will be a very tightly guarded secret. There certainly won't be any 'announcements' regarding this untill it's about to bs launched, otherwise sales of the current - and very current at that - model would suffer.


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## Niki (Nov 29, 2013)

i think you picked the perfect day for this thread...


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## TAF (Nov 29, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > even if this means an even more expensive 5d4 than the 5d3 was ($3500, shudder).
> ...



Since I bought my 5D3 last year, the yen has fallen 25% against the US dollar. That means that Canon effectively has an additional 25% headroom available to make changes to a model before they have to increase the price.

Or more likely, they can allow a 15% cost increase to improve the next model, and then have a larger percentage profit margin on it. Win-Win.

Which makes an upgrade quite likely, if their facilities can handle it (didn't they have some problems after the tsunami?).


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## Pixel_crab (Nov 30, 2013)

The probability of a 5D MK III replacement is really slim.

I mean, based upon what we've seen in the previous years, it is just unlikely or impossible.
It took more time to replace the 60D with the 70D, the CR1 rating is appropriate here.

A high MP camera probably. But something else?... Nhaaaaa


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## unfocused (Nov 30, 2013)

TAF said:


> Since I bought my 5D3 last year, the yen has fallen 25% against the US dollar. That means that Canon effectively has an additional 25% headroom available to make changes to a model before they have to increase the price...



No. With a multinational company like Canon, the impact of the exchange rate cannot be so simply explained. They have many expenses that are in U.S. dollars, as well of dozens of other currencies. To take just one small example: all of their U.S. expenses (salaries, shipping costs, discounts to dealers, advertising expenses, etc. etc.) must be paid in U.S. dollars, which means they become more expensive when the Yen falls in value.

The U.S. market is important, but not even the largest market for Canon products any more. An ever-growing percentage of their sales comes from China, while European sales also represent a substantial portion of their market as well. Just as in the U.S., they have substantial expenses in these markets that must be paid in the local currency. 

It is a gross oversimplification to assume that changes in the exchange rate have so simple of an impact on expenses.


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## RLPhoto (Nov 30, 2013)

I see a high MP body but what I really want to see is some new glass. In particular a very fast IS Mid Telephoto prime.


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## jrista (Nov 30, 2013)

unfocused said:


> TAF said:
> 
> 
> > Since I bought my 5D3 last year, the yen has fallen 25% against the US dollar. That means that Canon effectively has an additional 25% headroom available to make changes to a model before they have to increase the price...
> ...



Canon, being a multinational company, also maintains revenues in local currencies as well. One wouldn't necessarily have to assume that Yen has to be converted to USD in order for costs to be paid in USD. It may be that some Yen does have to be converted, but it also seems logical that the increased costs due to a falling Yen wouldn't always be incurred, given that there are a number of revenues gathered, and banked, in USD by Canon's US business arms.


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## Vossie (Nov 30, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I see a high MP body but what I really want to see is some new glass. In particular a very fast IS Mid Telephoto prime.



Indeed. IF there would be a 2nd ff body in 2014, A 5Ds not replacing but living along the 5D3 would make most sense. IF Canon intends to launch a 1Ds, I could see a similar high MP sensor in a non-1 body. A replacement for any of the 3 current FF bodies would not make much sense in my view.

Although I think that the added value of a high MP body is limited (for the majority of applications the current MP counts of Canon's FF bodies would suffice), from a marketing standpoint they probably have to go for higher MPs as competition is heading there as well.


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## Moulyneau (Nov 30, 2013)

These two cameras are fairly recent and I guess there's no need for early upgrade but between the two, I think a 6D2 with beefed up AF and some minor stuff would make an easy one.


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## Marsu42 (Nov 30, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Exactly; that's why the 5D IV will be a very tightly guarded secret. There certainly won't be any 'announcements' regarding this untill it's about to bs launched, otherwise sales of the current - and very current at that - model would suffer.



Bad news for rumor sites - seems we're stuck with [CR1] about the 7d2 

Another reason for Canon not revealing anything is their reputation for delays (see 1dx), so to repair their image they'll make sure if they make a release announcement in the future the hardware is really ready - which excludes "development announcements" and such.



Moulyneau said:


> These two cameras are fairly recent and I guess there's no need for early upgrade but between the two, I think a 6D2 with beefed up AF and some minor stuff would make an easy one.



But it would also be an easy way to annoy existing customers (see Nikon's infamous d600->d610), expensive dslrs - and that includes the 6d - aren't expected to be "updated" like smartphones or Rebels. 

Canon has tremendous success with lenses doing the exact opposite - not updating them at all or only when driven by gunpoint of Sigma/Nikon. The result is that people happily buy 8-10 year old L lenses and they have a great resale value - if is becomes know the 6D is the ff Rebel buyers will be more reluctant in the future with the 6d2 after it's a year on the market.


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## Dick (Nov 30, 2013)

A mirrorless FF camera is needed. EVF + EF mount + L lenses + ... yeah, a huge pile of cash.


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## pdirestajr (Nov 30, 2013)

Dick said:


> A mirrorless FF camera is needed. EVF + EF mount + L lenses + ... yeah, a huge pile of cash.



I still don't understand the desire for a mirrorless camera to mount "huge" EF mount lenses to. Where is the benefit?

All I see is:
• Worse balance/ ergonomics
• Still not a small package
• Slower AF
• No optical VF
• Weaker battery performance

So if they were to add a mirrorless camera to their lineup, they'd have to add a 4th lens mount? Sounds like a way for Canon to just drive their business into the ground.

I'd be all for a 1 off item like the Fuji x100 or the Sony RX1 where a built-in lens can create a nice small package.

Also from reading the comments on CR for years now, I just picture every member as a giant man with huge hands that need large gripped cameras with a 70-200 2.8 mounted to feel comfortable.


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## RGF (Nov 30, 2013)

5D M4 will have a higher profit that the 6D M2.


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## tcmatthews (Nov 30, 2013)

High megapixel to go with the new lenses not directly competing with the 5d III or 6D. Possibly a full frame rebel I read a few years ago Canon had a long term goal or returning to all full frame cameras. If that is still a gole we could see the 6d sensor in a rebel body. 

Other than that I think it is too early for a 6d refresh. If it is a 5d announcement it will be a 2015 Camera supporting 4k possibly.


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## Richard8971 (Dec 1, 2013)

Zv said:


> Because entry level is where they make the most money and that money then gets used for R&D of the higher end stuff and new lenses.
> 
> The SL1 is marketed at, well let's be honest, young ladies. It's a small and compact and fits in a handbag.
> 
> ...



Yeah true, guess I didn't think of it in those terms. 

The XXD line was for years the "go to" camera for those who didn't want/couldn't afford a professional body. Once the 7D took the APS-C crown, the XXD line was slightly downgraded to what we have today. I love my 40D, it's a solid camera that handles whatever you throw at it. 

In fact, with the way they designed the 60D I was surprised that they even came out with the 70D. I was certain that they would have integrated the XXD line and the 7D line into the 7D2. Guess I was wrong. 

If they do introduce 2 more FF cameras next year it will be interesting to see what they come up with.

D


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## sagittariansrock (Dec 1, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> 6D did not have dirty/oily sensor like Nikon D600 and will easily sell more than D600, D610, a7 & a7r combined



Nikon's action was very baffling to me. I am sure they could have just fixed the issue for a lesser cost. Must have been some other reason for bringing out a D610.
Logically, neither 5DIV nor 6DII make sense so early. But then again, Canon strategists might have reasons we have no clue about.


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## Arctic Photo (Dec 1, 2013)

pdirestajr said:


> Dick said:
> 
> 
> > A mirrorless FF camera is needed. EVF + EF mount + L lenses + ... yeah, a huge pile of cash.
> ...


I am a large man but with medium sized hands only. The 5D MkIII with the 70-200 2.8 is spot on for me.

I agree totally with your statement about mirrorless, all this time I thought there was something I didn't understand since a number of members here have been arguing so strongly for it. A small camera needs to be small enough to put in the pocket to make sense. Nothing bigger than the M with the 22 prime.


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## Eldar (Dec 1, 2013)

Arctic Photo said:


> pdirestajr said:
> 
> 
> > Dick said:
> ...


A benefit of a mirror less camera concept is that you can give it the form factor you like. You can make a small FF body for use with the shorter focal lengths and many users will prefer that. But you can also make an ergonomically sensible body for use with the longer lenses. To me t is not an either/or, but a yes-please-both!


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## Arctic Photo (Dec 1, 2013)

Eldar said:


> Arctic Photo said:
> 
> 
> > pdirestajr said:
> ...


That makes sense. It really isn't about if there's a mirror or not as such. Either way I like looking through a proper viewfinder.


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## Marsu42 (Dec 1, 2013)

Eldar said:


> A benefit of a mirror less camera concept is that you can give it the form factor you like.



However, if you add a native ef mount you still have to respect the current sensor-lens distance, or you end up with eos-m and an adapter.

There are several different approaches that lead to mirrorless - 1. size, 2. no mirror-flip (more fps, shorter blackout, sturdier) and 3. evf. Yes. the latter can be beneficial if you really make use of it, unlike Sony currently does - I'd like in-vf focus peaking for shallow dof and zebras for easier exposure.


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## Niki (Dec 1, 2013)

maybe they just should announce a few firmware updates making…the 5d3…into a 5d4


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## Sporgon (Dec 1, 2013)

tcmatthews said:


> Possibly a full frame rebel I read a few years ago Canon had a long term goal or returning to all full frame cameras. If that is still a gole we could see the 6d sensor in a rebel body.



If Canon did ever state this then I would think they have changed their collective minds. 

For many people the APS sensor is more desirable: cheaper, more forgiving in practical use due to shorter focal length lenses giving more DoF, so often 'sharper' pictures. Moderate teles give the impression of much greater magnification; the list goes on. 

The same tech that is making FF cheaper is making APS better. 

We won't see a FF Rebel unless Canon marketing research has suggested it would be a big sales feature.


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## Richard8971 (Dec 2, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> We won't see a FF Rebel unless Canon marketing research has suggested it would be a big sales feature.



Ah, the big question.

I think Canon in part will be influenced by the camera offerings by companies that are taking (in my opinion) mirrorless technology a bit more serious right now. Maybe Canon has something up their "mirrorless sleeve", maybe they don't, who knows?

I think cameras like the Sony A7/A7R are going to change, for the better, how mirrorless cameras CAN be designed and SHOULD be designed. I think a lot of people were surprised by a serious mirrorless FF camera body being announced AND from a company other than Nikon or Canon. 

Here is what I see possible from a serious FF MIRRORLESS camera. I don't think you can do this with _current_ DSLR technology.

They can design a FF camera that can take APS-H and APS-C images from the same body. I am NOT talking about any kind of JPEG cropping OR IN CAMERA processing. Look, the idea is very simple. My 7D in which the full resolution of the sensor is 5,184 x 3,456 pixels, can ALSO take HD video at a resolution of 1920 x 1080. It simply uses the pixels it NEEDS, nothing more, nothing less. Now HOW it does it, is not the important part, the fact that it CAN do it, is.

So you design a 5D2 sized FF mirrorless body, one that can accept EF AND EF-s lenses. Ah, EF-s lenses on a FF camera? Not one with a mirror, but with a MIRRORLESS camera you can! There will be NO mirror to slap up and strike the rear of the EF-s lens!

So you take (for the sake of argument) a sensor that is, say 36MP (7360 x 4912), so cropped down to APS-H (the sensor would only use the pixels that would make up an APS-H sized sensor) would make it about 22MP (5867 x 3888). In APS-C mode, the sensor would only use the innermost pixels making up an APS-C sized sensor giving you a 13MP (4538 x 3029) sized image. The full crop factor would take place too. In FF mode, no crop. In the other modes, 1.3x and 1.6x respectfully.

Now, here would be the awesome part. In FF mode, the camera would take 4-6 fps. In APS-H mode, 6-8 fps and say 12-14 fps in APS-C mode. The larger images would take longer to process and would take up more buffer room. The smaller images would take up less room and could be processed faster, all in RAW format. Also, being a FF sized sensor, the pixel density would not change so the high ISO performance of the sensor would carry through (in theory) to all of the other image sizes. The advantage of such a camera would be unimaginable. All of this could be carried out by the processor to choose whatever pixels it wanted to or not. If current DSLR cpu's are fast enough to process HD video, certainly they are fast enough to make an image size smaller while retaining full image quality.

This idea is already being done by several cameras but not to this extent. The Panasonic Lumix FZ200 is a good example. It is a 12MP camera and in one particular shooting mode it shoots approx. 60 frames / sec @ 2.5MP. This CAN be done.

WILL Canon make such a camera? Don't know, but I sure hope so. But I bet that SOMEONE will and WHEN they do, it might be enough competition to get Canon and/or Nikon to take notice because you better believe that I would buy such a camera if it was in the $1800-$2400 price range. The Sony A7 is a good start and shows what can be done with mirrorless technology. This is one reason why I am excited to see where they they will go with it.

Will mirrorless cameras replace DSLR's? Not sure, DSLR's work pretty good right now the way they are.

Like has been said, maybe they would consider such a camera, maybe they won't. But maybe the MARKET will force the hand. Competition is a wonderful thing!

D


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## Traktor (Dec 3, 2013)

I can't see the 5D3 being replaced in 2014. The current 5D3 is in a sweet spot for wedding and event photographers, a market place it dominates. 22 megapixel is sufficient for this without having huge files that are a pain to work with and combined with the AF and frame rates it is superior to the D800 in this application IMHO.
It would be nice to see a high megapixel version which sacrifices the 61 point AF, frame rates and video capabilities. A 6D2 or 5Ds (whatever you want to call it) could fill this void and sell alongside the current cameras at a 5D3 price without canibalising sales too much. At the 5D3 price point I don't think you could have high res AND high frame rates - that would be more of a 1DXs thing.

Unfortunately I don't think this will eventuate. Unless you are well marketed and established, Landscape photography is not that lucrative, whereas even average wedding photographers can make decent money. There are plenty of amazing landscapers out there that don't make a cent out of their photos. The 5D3 fills the wedding/event niche very nicely and no doubt Canon's marketing department knows it. If there is demand in the studio world for a high res low fps model, then Canon may exploit that. I can only hope!


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## jrista (Dec 3, 2013)

Traktor said:


> I can't see the 5D3 being replaced in 2014. The current 5D3 is in a sweet spot for wedding and event photographers, a market place it dominates. 22 megapixel is sufficient for this without having huge files that are a pain to work with and combined with the AF and frame rates it is superior to the D800 in this application IMHO.
> It would be nice to see a high megapixel version which sacrifices the 61 point AF, frame rates and video capabilities. A 6D2 or 5Ds (whatever you want to call it) could fill this void and sell alongside the current cameras at a 5D3 price without canibalising sales too much. At the 5D3 price point I don't think you could have high res AND high frame rates - that would be more of a 1DXs thing.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't think this will eventuate. Unless you are well marketed and established, Landscape photography is not that lucrative, whereas even average wedding photographers can make decent money. There are plenty of amazing landscapers out there that don't make a cent out of their photos. The 5D3 fills the wedding/event niche very nicely and no doubt Canon's marketing department knows it. If there is demand in the studio world for a high res low fps model, then Canon may exploit that. I can only hope!



AF is extremely important in studio photography as well, though. I can't imagine any studio camera, 5Ds III or 1Ds X, not getting Canon's top of the line AF system.


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## Traktor (Dec 3, 2013)

jrista said:


> AF is extremely important in studio photography as well, though. I can't imagine any studio camera, 5Ds III or 1Ds X, not getting Canon's top of the line AF system.



If thats the case then why do a lot of studios use Medium Format systems with average AF systems?
Don't get me wrong, I am not an expert on studio work but I would have thought an improved version of the highly praised 19 point system from the 7D will destroy any of the current Medium Format AF systems and be more than good enough? Happy for people in the know to point out studio exaqmples where this AF system would not be good enough.
If someone absolutely has to have the 61 point system with a high res sensor then presumably Canon would make them fork out the 7-9 grand for the hypothetical 1DXs.

I just hope there is room in the 2014 lineup for what the 5D2 was in 2009: high resolution at the expense of speed, at a (then) reasonable price. I like Canon cameras, I am used to the GUI, they fit nicely in my hand and the controls all feel right - but it looks as though a Sony A7R with an adapter may be the thing to tide me over.


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## jrista (Dec 3, 2013)

Traktor said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > AF is extremely important in studio photography as well, though. I can't imagine any studio camera, 5Ds III or 1Ds X, not getting Canon's top of the line AF system.
> ...



In my peripheral experience with studio photography, you generally only need center point focus. You don't generally do off-centered compositions or anything like that. While the design of medium format AF systems may seem mediocre, they are very good at what they do. Similarly, the 61pt AF system has a vertical strip of five of the industries most powerful and accurate AF points, which would be a huge boon to studio work (especially in a 40-50 megapixel body). 

I don't think the grand total number of AF points don't matter all that much for a studio camera, however those five ultra precision points would be pretty awesome. That said...why develop a new AF sensor with just those five, when you already have on that is ready to go, and has all the manufacturing lined up?


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