# Canon Announces That The Powerful Professional Full-Frame EOS R3 Mirrorless Camera Is On Its Way



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 14, 2021)

> MELVILLE, NY, April 14, 2021– Canon U.S.A. Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today announced that its parent company, Canon Inc., is developing a new, high-performance professional camera — the Canon EOS R3*. When it arrives, the EOS R3 will be an outstanding complement to the three new RF lenses the company also introduced today — The Canon RF 100mm F2.8 L Macro IS USM, RF400mm F2.8 L IS USM and RF600mm F4 L IS USM.
> “The development of the Canon EOS R3 and the launch of the new RF lenses are the latest testament to the company’s commitment to professional still and video image and content creators,” said Tatsuro “Tony” Kano, executive vice president and general manager of Canon U.S.A.’s Imaging Technologies & Communications Group. “When the camera becomes available, it will pair well with each of the new RF lenses announced today. Canon is excited to share this news today, and we look forward to seeing the images captured with the new RF lenses and upcoming EOS R3.”...



Continue reading...


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## H. Jones (Apr 14, 2021)

Good grief, this doesn't answer many of my own questions!

"This camera will usher in a new category to the EOS R system, positioned squarely between the EOS R5 and EOS-1D X Mark III cameras. "

I forget who said it in the last thread, but they were bang on when they guessed that Canon was trying its best to not "replace" the 1DX immediately. 

Considering that this is a stacked sensor dual-pixel design, I definitely think the R1 is still coming further down the line with a global shutter and quad-pixel AF. The only question is if that's next year or the year after.

This is going to make my choices much more difficult. I was sold on replacing my 1DX2 with an R1, but clearly Canon isn't yet ready to call this camera a 1-series camera if they say it's between the R5 and 1DX in their lineup.


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## R1-7D (Apr 14, 2021)

Brings back eye autofocus point selection from the film EOS 3 era!!


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## CafferyPhoto (Apr 14, 2021)

Wasn't the EOS 3 the camera with Eye-Activated autofocus back in the 90s? Well played!!


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## Chris.Chapterten (Apr 14, 2021)

I wonder how much the speed and dynamic range will improve with this new stacked sensor?

I was really hoping it was a high MP body like 80mp... but given it is all about speed... I would guess a max of 50mp like the A1.. maybe less


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## H. Jones (Apr 14, 2021)

Haven't seen this photo posted anywhere, but it was in the DPReview TV first reaction video here: https://www.dpreview.com/videos/875...jordan-react-to-the-canon-eos-r3-announcement




Am I wrong to assume that the extra open space around the sensor means this has IBIS in it? It looks like it, to me.


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## sdz (Apr 14, 2021)

Canon's R&D was further along than many believed it to be. A BSI camera just pops up, unexpected, much like 8K on the R5.


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## Jethro (Apr 14, 2021)

Well, wow!


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## Jethro (Apr 14, 2021)

I'd expect any (especially professional) RF body from now on to include IBIS.


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## PiezoSwitch (Apr 14, 2021)

Here is a Canon Japan video with some imagery of the new lenses and through the lens shots from the macro lens including a demo of the spherical aberration adjustment and its effect on bokeh. There is also a bit more information about the R3 but unfortunately it's all in Japanese so perhaps someone here can translate some of it. I've primed the YouTube link to begin at 9 minutes and 26 seconds where the product information begins. The rest of the video is about the new Canon house showroom.

Canon Japan


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## H. Jones (Apr 14, 2021)

I'm still really hung up on the "between the 1DX Mark III and EOS R5," I think we may very well see the R3 coming in around $4500-5500 instead of approaching the cost of the 1DX Mark III. 

Jordan from DPReview TV noted that he was felt like one way they may differentiate it from the 1DX mark III is if it has a cheaper 12 FPS mechanical shutter mechanism like the R5, versus the expensive 20 FPS 1D shutter mechanism. That could make sense, if Canon feels confident enough in the stacked-sensor 30 FPS readout speed to mostly replace the mechanical shutter, they could save some cost on parts. Realistically, this camera doesn't need a mirror, a fancy mechanical shutter, or a huge crystal in the eyepiece, so it could very well end up being between the two cameras in cost.


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## goldenhusky (Apr 14, 2021)

I am more thrilled about the following two items.
Full-frame stacked CMOS sensor with a back-illuminated design
Eye Control AF2
I own a EOS 3 which has eye control AF (let's call it ECAF). Yeah it kind of works. I am hoping ECAF2 will be way better than the ECAF on EOS 3
My other hope is that it is at least 50 MP camera and will have IBIS


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## Maximilian (Apr 14, 2021)

Interesting move in marketing and spec. Did I miss the MP count?


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## Jethro (Apr 14, 2021)

I think the wording of the announcement points towards quite a wait before an R1 (replacement for the 1DXiii) is announced. The roadmap they are painting is R5 / R3 / 1DXiii.


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## ToddK (Apr 14, 2021)

Seeeeexy camera haha


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## Jethro (Apr 14, 2021)

No hints on the MP count ...


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## SnowMiku (Apr 14, 2021)

This could be the replacement for the 7DII if it has the equivalent MP, APS-C pro bodies may now be a thing of the past, if an R7 dosn't come out they will just have to eventully upgrade to full-frame R5 or R3 if they want the latest performance and features.


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## Maximilian (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> I'm still really hung up on the "between the 1DX Mark III and EOS R5," I think we may very well see the R3 coming in around $4500-5500 instead of approaching the cost of the 1DX Mark III.


Add at least 1k here, better 1,5k.
That‘s my take.


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## H. Jones (Apr 14, 2021)

Gordon Laing, in his video reveal of the R3's announcement, wondered aloud, "I wonder if there's some kind of physical spec limiting all three manufacturers to state 30 fps?" 

As it happens, that spec looks like it's the read/write speed of CF Express cards...which are pretty much maxed out by shooting raw 30 FPS at 45 megapixels, depending on the exact file size.

It's such a small sidenote in the video, and I doubt he knows more than we do, but I suddenly really do believe that this camera is 45-ish megapixels. If Canon went for 24 megapixels, why not blow up the FPS even higher as a statement if CF express can handle 60 FPS at 24 megapixels?


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## unfocused (Apr 14, 2021)

_"Eye Control AF may not be possible, depending upon individual characteristics or shooting conditions, and *may not be possible for users wearing bifocal eyeglasses, *certain types of sunglasses or mirror sunglasses, or certain hard contact lenses."_

Hmm...


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## Chris.Chapterten (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Gordon Laing, in his video reveal of the R3's announcement, wondered aloud, "I wonder if there's some kind of physical spec limiting all three manufacturers to state 30 fps?"
> 
> As it happens, that spec looks like it's the read/write speed of CF Express cards...which are pretty much maxed out by shooting raw 30 FPS at 45 megapixels, depending on the exact file size.
> 
> It's such a small sidenote in the video, and I doubt he knows more than we do, but I suddenly really do believe that this camera is 45-ish megapixels. If Canon went for 24 megapixels, why not blow up the FPS even higher as a statement if CF express can handle 60 FPS at 24 megapixels?


I think you might be on to something there!


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## canonnews (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Gordon Laing, in his video reveal of the R3's announcement, wondered aloud, "I wonder if there's some kind of physical spec limiting all three manufacturers to state 30 fps?"
> 
> As it happens, that spec looks like it's the read/write speed of CF Express cards...which are pretty much maxed out by shooting raw 30 FPS at 45 megapixels, depending on the exact file size.
> 
> It's such a small sidenote in the video, and I doubt he knows more than we do, but I suddenly really do believe that this camera is 45-ish megapixels. If Canon went for 24 megapixels, why not blow up the FPS even higher as a statement if CF express can handle 60 FPS at 24 megapixels?


you get to the point where aperture blades can't open and close fast enough so you would have to use stop-down AF, instead of wide open AF which would also limit then your AF sensitivity, if you needed to shoot with your lens stopped down a bit. there's also the physical time it takes to move the lens elements when you AF in between the shots as well.
So even if they get rid of the shutter, there's still at least for now, other mechanical pieces that would limit frame rates.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 14, 2021)

Here is an R3 vs 1DX III comparison where I have made the throat diameters the same.

As an aside, the visible part of the R3 battery is exactly the same shape and size as the 1D X III/II/I


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## canonnews (Apr 14, 2021)

sdz said:


> Canon's R&D was further along than many believed it to be. A BSI camera just pops up, unexpected, much like 8K on the R5.


indeed!
I would have bet money on canon not being ready to do a stacked CMOS (which by nature of how you stack a sensor, pretty much has to be BSI).
Canon skipped at least 2 steps there.

I was curious on the statement in the press release where it's simply a "canon designed sensor", however Canon UK states "The first EOS to feature an entirely new stacked BSI CMOS sensor *designed and manufactured *by Canon"

All I can say is .. well freaking done Canon.

And Sony's going .. ah crap, we thought we had them. 

Also one thing that no one has mentioned is that with a much faster scan rate, Canon can also deliver much better AF performance. when you consider that you can argue that the R5 is already class-leading in terms of auto focus, and now you're going to make it even faster. Yikes.

One thing about it - is that if Canon can do stacked CMOS sensors, then I'd say it's a very very great possibility that the R1 is going to be global shutter. There's absolutely no reason it wouldn't be.


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## miketcool (Apr 14, 2021)

I love Eye Control Focus. I can’t imagine what this is like using intelligent machine learning on top of almost full sensor AF.


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## canonnews (Apr 14, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Here is an R3 vs 1DX III comparison where I have made the throat diameters the same.
> 
> As an aside, the visible part of the R3 battery is exactly the same shape and size as the 1D X III/II/I


That's interesting. It also looks like the button layout which is certainly 1 series'ish, is a little different especially on the right hand side of the image.


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## canonnews (Apr 14, 2021)

miketcool said:


> I love Eye Control Focus. I can’t imagine what this is like using intelligent machine learning on top of almost full sensor AF.


I freaking hated it with the EOS-3 and Elan, and it's going to be worse now because I wear photochromatic progressive bifocals.


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## calfoto (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> if Canon feels confident enough in the stacked-sensor 30 FPS readout speed to mostly replace the mechanical shutter, they could save some cost on parts.


They still need a mechanical shutter unless new Canon technology can sync a flash to an electronic shutter.


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## H. Jones (Apr 14, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Here is an R3 vs 1DX III comparison where I have made the throat diameters the same.
> 
> As an aside, the visible part of the R3 battery is exactly the same shape and size as the 1D X III/II/I
> View attachment 196952



This is an excellent size. Even a few CM is going to make the R3 even more portable than the 1-series, this could probably fit in several bags that wouldn't previously accept a full-gripped camera. I almost wonder if the integrated grip is slightly smaller than an R5 with a battery grip attached? That might make a good case as to why it's a good idea to integrate it, vs the need for extra room when it's external.


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## H. Jones (Apr 14, 2021)

calfoto said:


> They still need a mechanical shutter unless new Canon technology can sync a flash to an electronic shutter.


Not really, with a stacked sensor. The A1 can flash sync at 1/200th in electronic shutter, thanks to the super-fast stacked sensor readout. I'd bet that Canon also has that in the bag, if not faster, if they were already just sitting on all this stacked sensor tech.

Again though, I'm not saying they would remove the mechanical shutter, I'm just saying that they could use a cheaper one, like an R5/R6 shutter, instead of a 1DX shutter, which would cost more to produce. Why bother with the 1D shutter in this if everything can be done well electronically?


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## tpatana (Apr 14, 2021)

Uhh... sexy...

So are we talking ~$6k? Does that mean R1 will be $8k?


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## scottkinfw (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Good grief, this doesn't answer many of my own questions!
> 
> "This camera will usher in a new category to the EOS R system, positioned squarely between the EOS R5 and EOS-1D X Mark III cameras. "
> 
> ...


Spot on. They had me until they said between the R5 and 1DXIII.
Still a lot of great features, but I'm thinking this will be around 6K to $6500.00 USD (just my guess), and I love my 1DX, and, I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve for the R5. I'm thinking that the cameras I have now are better than I am, and I have so much to learn, I'll hold off for the R1.


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## Tangent (Apr 14, 2021)

PiezoSwitch said:


> Here is a Canon Japan video with some imagery of the new lenses and through the lens shots from the macro lens including a demo of the spherical aberration adjustment and its effect on bokeh. There is also a bit more information about the R3 but unfortunately it's all in Japanese so perhaps someone here can translate some of it. I've primed the YouTube link to begin at 9 minutes and 26 seconds where the product information begins. The rest of the video is about the new Canon house showroom.
> 
> Canon Japan



Thanks for posting this link. Auto-translate widget in youtube does a pretty decent job. For the 100 macro, the quick demo of reduced focus breathing is also impressive. The video talks about release dates in July 2021 for these lenses. 

(Not to be pedantic, but here's how to get to auto-translate: Select the gear icon at page bottom, select subtitles, then you can select auto-translate, and from there you can pick the language of your choice.)


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## HMC11 (Apr 14, 2021)

Based on the R3 descriptions, the R1, when it comes out, could well be an amazing camera. Together with the new and promises lenses, the R1's appearance may also mark a tipping point in the switch from the EF to the RF system.


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## tataylino (Apr 14, 2021)

I am guessing this is supposed to be called R1 but they decided to call it R3 when they saw the spec of the sony A1.


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## dwarven (Apr 14, 2021)

The fact that they said it's positioned between the R5 and 1DX Mark III (below the 1DX) makes me think the mechanical shutter will definitely not hit 20fps. But the MP count will probably be in the 40-60 range.


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## navastronia (Apr 14, 2021)

tpatana said:


> Uhh... sexy...
> 
> So are we talking ~$6k? Does that mean R1 will be $8k?



Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're in the ballpark


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## dirtyvu (Apr 14, 2021)

tataylino said:


> I am guessing this is supposed to be called R1 but they decided to call it R3 when they saw the spec of the sony A1.


Doubt it. Remember, the rumors of the R1 was that it has a global shutter which is even faster. The R1 specs were even higher than these R3 specs


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## H. Jones (Apr 14, 2021)

My bet after this evening's reveal:

~45-50 megapixels, I lean towards 50 to add a slight step up from the R5. New sensor tech means it isn't just the same "old" 45 mp sensor from the R5.
30 FPS electronic shutter with ability to flash sync
12-14 fps mechanical shutter
8K at 30 fps with better heat control due to larger heat sinks(not that this will ever be advertised, the development announcement didn't mention video once!)
LP-E20 or LP-E19NH battery pack with USB-C charging
Flip-out screen like the R5
IBIS
Dual CF Express Type B
Some sweet new EVF with higher-res, faster refresh rate, maybe even larger
$5500
Canon does call this higher than the R5, so I do think it's safe to say this camera will exceed the R5 in ways we just can't anticipate. But in order to exceed the R5, it also definitely needs to exceed the R6. Stacked sensor tech is nice, but it's still not a global shutter. I could have seen 24 megapixels getting by if it was a global shutter, but in a stacked sensor, I really do see this being on par or slightly higher than the R5.

Depending on the quality of the electronic shutter and the dynamic range/noise that the electronic shutter can pull off, I could actually see myself replacing my 1DX2 with this, if it is 45mp. I do really want to move over to the RF mount fully and sell my EF mount gear, so if the R3 can beat my 1DX2 and R5 in many ways while being "under" the 1DX3, it could get me to make that switch.


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## navastronia (Apr 14, 2021)

Fascinating move. I think they're using the R3 to playtest the technology that will make its way into the R1. If the eye-controlled autofocus is poorly received, they may drop it from consideration for the R1, just like they dropped the touch bar from the Canon bodies after the R, when everyone hated it.

Biggest question - does this body lack IBIS? Will they justify it by saying that IBIS isn't rugged enough for a camera of this style and for sports/wildlife/journalism use?

If we have the R3 in our collective hands this fall, I wouldn't expect the R1 until mid or late 2022 at the very soonest. I hope the R1 does include both a global shutter and IBIS. That would be terrific, IMO. Those things combined with class-leading image quality and autofocus, I couldn't ask for anything else.


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## miketcool (Apr 14, 2021)

canonnews said:


> I freaking hated it with the EOS-3 and Elan, and it's going to be worse now because I wear photochromatic progressive bifocals.


I always got great results from calibrating my lenses on my EOS 3. I know it worked about 80% of the time. I imagine glasses would have made it useless.


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## Quackator (Apr 14, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Here is an R3 vs 1DX III comparison where I have made the throat diameters the same.


You forgot that EF and RF have different throat diameters,
so this is wrong in scale.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 14, 2021)

Quackator said:


> You forgot that EF and RF have different throat diameters,
> so this is wrong in scale.


I understood they were both 54mm diameter, the differences are in back focus distance, not diameter.


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## terrellcwoods (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> I'm still really hung up on the "between the 1DX Mark III and EOS R5," I think we may very well see the R3 coming in around $4500-5500 instead of approaching the cost of the 1DX Mark III.
> 
> Jordan from DPReview TV noted that he was felt like one way they may differentiate it from the 1DX mark III is if it has a cheaper 12 FPS mechanical shutter mechanism like the R5, versus the expensive 20 FPS 1D shutter mechanism. That could make sense, if Canon feels confident enough in the stacked-sensor 30 FPS readout speed to mostly replace the mechanical shutter, they could save some cost on parts. Realistically, this camera doesn't need a mirror, a fancy mechanical shutter, or a huge crystal in the eyepiece, so it could very well end up being between the two cameras in cost.


I'm wishing for that price, but I think it will be significantly more than the R5 at release. I'm thinking, unfortunately, it will be priced competitively against the Sony A1. Ouch!


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## Rumourhasit (Apr 14, 2021)

Wow I don’t even have to update my video. Thanks Canon


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## justaCanonuser (Apr 14, 2021)

CafferyPhoto said:


> Wasn't the EOS 3 the camera with Eye-Activated autofocus back in the 90s? Well played!!


Unfortunately, the eye-tracking mode doesn't really work if you wear glasses, at least with my copy of an EOS 3. The EOS 3 had a lot of pro features in a smaller body, back then. Since the R3 has a big pro body, it is no real heir of the old "3" series. Well, people don't care about the revival of product lines that faded out nearly 20 years ago...


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## Stig Nygaard (Apr 14, 2021)

My guess is R3 being the high megapixel pro camera.
The later R1 might be using the rumored 21MP global shutter sensor.

I also assume Canon generally will keep a 4 years release-frequenzy for their high-end pro camera(s). Ignoring the current scheduling chaos from COVID and general abnormalities caused by change of technology from DSLR to mirrorless, I'm guessing one camera released up to FIFA World Cups and the other body up to Summer Olympics. That could mean development-annoncements and release years like:

1DxIII: 2020 (Originally scheduled OL year)
R3: 2021-2022 (WC)
R1: 2023-2024 (OL)
R3 II: 2025-2026 (WC)

or maybe Canon take the chaotic times (including high level of technology changes and progress) as a opportunity to swap, so R3 are will be the "olympic" body and R1 aligned with WC:

R3: 2021 (rescheduled OL)
R1: 2022 (WC)
R3 II: 2023-2024 (OL)
R1 II: 2025-2026 (WC)

Yeah, all just speculations  But a global shutter sensor in R1 would clearly differentiate the R1 and R3 series.


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## justaCanonuser (Apr 14, 2021)

The most interesting news from my perspective is "...a Canon-developed, full-frame stacked CMOS sensor with a back-illuminated design..." A BSI sensor would be a real move from Canon to an - at least theoretically - improved low light performance. So they would catch up with Sonikon sensor tech in that respect. I dunno why they hesitated so long, maybe they were waiting for some patents to end (like with IBIS). So I hope BSI will later trickle down to sensors in smaller camera bodies (which I personally prefer).


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## justaCanonuser (Apr 14, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Yeah, all just speculations  But a global shutter sensor in R1 would clearly differentiate the R1 and R3 series.


I already feel a global shudder reading all those news


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## csibra (Apr 14, 2021)

I can only repeat my yesterday's comment:


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## koenkooi (Apr 14, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> I understood they were both 54mm diameter, the differences are in back focus distance, not diameter.


There are also some differences in the layout and size of the electronic connections, the bayonet is the same size, but there's more room inside the RF mount. This has been presented as a 'wider' mount, which is causing a lot of confusion.


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## Traveler (Apr 14, 2021)

Is it just me or more and more people would like to buy a flagship camera if it's not this huge body? Everyone seems to like the A1 for it's smaller size so Canon could make one camera like this. At least for "marketing" purposes.


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## Skyscraperfan (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> Is it just me or more and more people would like to buy a flagship camera if it's not this huge body? Everyone seems to like the A1 for it's smaller size so Canon could make one camera like this. At least for "marketing" purposes.


I will always prefer the bigger camera, because it is more steady, has less overheating, longer battery life, can take larger memory cards (I hate those flimsy SD cards for example) and if I spend a lot of money, I want something big and solid. Also tiny cameras look strange with a big lens mounted on them. Not only with a big white lens, but also with my bulky Tamron 15-30 for example.

A large camera also often gives you an advantage: You will be seen as "press" without even having to show a press pass. Not at the Olympics of course. When I took a helicopter ride in New York, I was given the best seat next to the pilot when they saw my large camera, although the other passengers on the back seat had paid the same price for the ticket.

Of course sometimes a small camera can also have an advantage. Sometimes you can take a small camera somewhere where they will stop you with a large camera. For people who do not know the Sony A1, it might not look like a "serious" or "professional" camera. So you might be able to take it to a music festival or into a football stadium where you might run into problems with your 1D X III. So if you have deep pockets, it would be good to have both.


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## Bahrd (Apr 14, 2021)

canonnews said:


> I freaking hated it with the EOS-3 and Elan, and it's going to be worse now because I wear photochromatic progressive bifocals.


... with different corrections for each eye.


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## Joules (Apr 14, 2021)

justaCanonuser said:


> The most interesting news from my perspective is "...a Canon-developed, full-frame stacked CMOS sensor with a back-illuminated design..." A BSI sensor would be a real move from Canon to an - at least theoretically - improved low light performance. So they would catch up with Sonikon sensor tech in that respect.


Canon has 0 catching up to do. If they can manage to further improve their current sensor performance, they will exceed Sony, not catch up to them.





__





Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review


Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.




www.dpreview.com





I think the more interesting implications here are features like the read speed and laying out the foundation for fabrication of global and quad pixel AF sensors.


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## VOTOXY (Apr 14, 2021)

My take on the R3 :

If the video specs are better or equivalent to the R5 / Sony FX3 with RAW video accross all resolutions, a nice flat profile, I will buy it.
If for photography, it has at least a 45-50mp+ sensor, with at least 20fps shooting, I will buy it no questions asked.

I have a question as I am a semi-professional :
Why everyone is talking about "global shutter", what is the big deal about that ?

Thanks a lot.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> Is it just me or more and more people would like to buy a flagship camera if it's not this huge body? Everyone seems to like the A1 for it's smaller size so Canon could make one camera like this. At least for "marketing" purposes.



Much prefer the bigger body or a body with a grip. Canon R3 and Nikon Z9 is exactly what I am wanting to use when using a big lens. The form factor of the R3 and Z9 are what pro's have been using for decades.


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## pape2 (Apr 14, 2021)

Kind of transition camera for pro shooters ,like RP and R . 4 or 5 year to next olympics is long time .
Wouldnt be supriced if it got canon designed sony sensor  Canon may putted all eggs to global sensor basket.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Apr 14, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> A large camera also often gives you an advantage: You will be seen as "press" without even having to show a press pass. Not at the Olympics of course. Why I took a helicopter ride in New York, I was given the best seat next to the pilot when they saw my large camera, although the other passengers on the back seat had paid the same price for the ticket.



Just on this point, the bigger the camera I have out with me the less I get bothered by the general public. Also helps to put a old convention name tag on.


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## PhotoGenerous (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> Is it just me or more and more people would like to buy a flagship camera if it's not this huge body? Everyone seems to like the A1 for it's smaller size so Canon could make one camera like this. At least for "marketing" purposes.


With how heavy the lenses are, I now use the battery grip because the center of mass is all off and screws with balance of the camera/lens combo. I preferred to not use the battery grip on my 5DIVs, but with the R5 I need that weight. If they made more grip extensions like they did with the R, that didn't have the battery part, I would also be satisfied with that, but that's not an option so battery grip it is.


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## Joules (Apr 14, 2021)

VOTOXY said:


> I have a question as I am a semi-professional :
> Why everyone is talking about "global shutter", what is the big deal about that ?
> 
> Thanks a lot.


A physical shutter can only go so fast, meaning it is limited in the FPS it can achieve at a given cost. It also imposes limits on the flash sync speed and has a limited life time. And it makes a noise when actuated.

An electronic rolling shutter doesn't have a life time and can allow much faster FPS. But the actual amount of time over which the image is created is greater than with a physical shutter, and different parts of the image are created at different times, causing objects in quick motion to become distorted. It is also silent.

A global shutter combines the best of both worlds. It is a Form of electronic shutter that effectively causes all areas of an image to be recorded at the same point in time. No wear, 0 distortion, super high FPS, silent, great flash sync flexibility.

Here is a great YouTube video that shows very well how a physical shutter operates, and also has a comparison of the distortion between a rolling electronic and global electronic shutter near the end:


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## navastronia (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> Is it just me or more and more people would like to buy a flagship camera if it's not this huge body? Everyone seems to like the A1 for it's smaller size so Canon could make one camera like this. At least for "marketing" purposes.



Would you be more likely to buy a sportscar if it had a smaller steering wheel?


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## navastronia (Apr 14, 2021)

Codebunny said:


> Just on this point, the bigger the camera I have out with me the less I get bothered by the general public. Also helps to put a old convention name tag on.



Thanks for the tips - I like both of those.


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## miketcool (Apr 14, 2021)

justaCanonuser said:


> The most interesting news from my perspective is "...a Canon-developed, full-frame stacked CMOS sensor with a back-illuminated design..." A BSI sensor would be a real move from Canon to an - at least theoretically - improved low light performance. So they would catch up with Sonikon sensor tech in that respect. I dunno why they hesitated so long, maybe they were waiting for some patents to end (like with IBIS). So I hope BSI will later trickle down to sensors in smaller camera bodies (which I personally prefer).


Canon has been focused on producing dual-pixel autofocus. Trying to incorporate the split lens pixels on a stacked sensor can’t be an easy task. Going quad-pixel is even harder. The benefit is with machine learning, you can rack focus perfectly without the need to do it manually. It allows the camera to track an object and keep it perfectly in focus.

Sony worked in faster throughput while Canon took the AF route. When they catch up, they should have the better technology.


----------



## MartinF. (Apr 14, 2021)

Canon for sure know the art of market- and product segmentation. Now we will have a R1 (within a year or two when the 1DmkIII sales have peaked) a R3 as "full size - integrated grip" and fully weathersealed photojournalistic workhorses that will settle in the current 1D segment. And then the R5 and R6 that settles probably both in the current 5D segment. (R6 seems to be appealing to current prof. 5D series users).
If that analyses is correct will there then be a R-body for the current 6D segement and then maybe a R-body for the current 7D segement?
That will be the "high end" of the R-series.
But how about current 80D - 90D series and the rebels?
I think I will stay with my quite new 5DmkIV and 6D and simply wait and see how the Canon R-body lineup will be, before I jump from EF to RF mount.
Interesting times in the shrinking but highly competitive and hightec. camera business


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## Maximilian (Apr 14, 2021)

In Germany you can already register at some shops for preoder and additional information on the R3.
No pricing and no further spec info though.


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## Diltiazem (Apr 14, 2021)

Canon Japan and Canon UK have mentioned, "high sensitivity" along with high speed. In the Canon world, high sensitivity means better low light and high ISO noise performance and that usually means not very high resolution. Interestingly, Canon UK says "a new era for pro sports photography and film making", I think this also rules out a very high-resolution camera. My feeling is that the resolution will be below that of R5, but higher than R6, probably around 30 MP. If Canon prices it around 5500 USD it will easily outsell a1 and Z9.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 14, 2021)

navastronia said:


> Would you be more likely to buy a sportscar if it had a smaller steering wheel?


I don't see similarity here...


----------



## Traveler (Apr 14, 2021)

PhotoGenerous said:


> With how heavy the lenses are, I now use the battery grip because the center of mass is all off and screws with balance of the camera/lens combo. I preferred to not use the battery grip on my 5DIVs, but with the R5 I need that weight. If they made more grip extensions like they did with the R, that didn't have the battery part, I would also be satisfied with that, but that's not an option so battery grip it is.


But I don't think all professionals use 400mm and 600mm lenses


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## PhotoGenerous (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> But I don't think all professionals use 400mm and 600mm lenses


I never said they did. That's an odd thought to have as a reply to my post, especially, as I understand it, people who use those lenses tend to have monopods or other methods of supporting the lens and body so clearly those would be lenses at the top of the list that I obviously wasn't talking about.


----------



## Fischer (Apr 14, 2021)

unfocused said:


> _"Eye Control AF may not be possible, depending upon individual characteristics or shooting conditions, and *may not be possible for users wearing bifocal eyeglasses, *certain types of sunglasses or mirror sunglasses, or certain hard contact lenses."_
> 
> Hmm...


No strong need for sunglasses when the viewfinder is electronic.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Apr 14, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I wonder how much the speed and dynamic range will improve with this new stacked sensor?
> 
> I was really hoping it was a high MP body like 80mp... but given it is all about speed... I would guess a max of 50mp like the A1.. maybe less



Stacked sensor cameras are not the best in DR department.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Apr 14, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Stacked sensor cameras are not the best in DR department.



That isn't necessarily true. The A1 has DR up there with the D850/Z7/Z7ii unless they are set to ISO 64. It would be more fair to say that the A9/A9II stacked sensor didn't have the best DR. I haven't read anything that suggests the technology has a DR issue. But even then, if you are shooting 30 FPS subjects the DR may not be as critical as getting the shot and the high speed cameras like the D6 and 1Dx3 have always given up MP or something to get speed.


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## Canfan (Apr 14, 2021)

Hope we see a new firmware upgrade for the R5 and R6 for improved subject recognition and tracking. My R5 does pick up some of the local wildlife.


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## navastronia (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> I don't see similarity here...



A smaller steering wheel wouldn't make a sportscar perform any better and would actually make it much harder for a driver to handle. Similarly, a more petite professional camera won't function any better than a larger camera and will also be harder for a photographer to handle.

Professional cameras are designed for sports, wildlife, and journalism, including in warzones. They should be tough and easy to grip (i.e., large enough), with distinct and tactile controls spaced appropriately.

This is all while leaving out the telephoto lens situation, which I'll let someone else explain, since I'm not a tele guy.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Apr 14, 2021)

navastronia said:


> A smaller steering wheel wouldn't make a sportscar perform any better and would actually make it much harder for a driver to handle. Similarly, a more petite professional camera won't function any better than a larger camera and will also be harder for a photographer to handle.
> 
> Professional cameras are designed for sports, wildlife, and journalism, including in warzones. They should be tough and easy to grip (i.e., large enough), with distinct and tactile controls spaced appropriately.
> 
> This is all while leaving out the telephoto lens situation, which I'll let someone else explain, since I'm not a tele guy.



For the super tele lenses there are a few reasons, some of them are historical like the bigger battery improving the AF motor speed (on the OG 1DX at least) and only on the super-tele lenses.
Then it is just easier to balance and hand held when you have more weight at your end.
When you rotate the lens on the collar you have your buttons on portrait but with no possible rain gap. They tend to have no compromise on weather sealing to match that big expensive lens, while as Canon put it the R5/R6 have 5-series and 6-series weather sealing. 
Other's will be able to chime in with their pro's for the bigger body, these are just mine. Even with smaller bodies, I've aways put the grip on, but with a pre-gripped body you do get a more compact design.


----------



## londonxt (Apr 14, 2021)

R1-7D said:


> Brings back eye autofocus point selection from the film EOS 3 era!!







I was obviously too cynical! Great news but I imagine the price point will be  I bought the EOS 3 in my early 20s I doubt i`ll be able to afford the R3!


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## highdesertmesa (Apr 14, 2021)

There are going to be some embarrassing mis-focused R3 photos. Boudoir photographers, I’m looking at you.


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## 12Broncos (Apr 14, 2021)

Is it just me, or could you do without a 'Development announcement' and just be satisfied with an announcement a week before the release? That way I'm excited for a week, instead of being teased and wait another eight months for the release announcement. 'Coming soon' that's nice, Christmas is 'coming soon' too.


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## Deleted member 381342 (Apr 14, 2021)

12Broncos said:


> Is it just me, or could you do without a 'Development announcement' and just be satisfied with an announcement a week before the release? That way I'm excited for a week, instead of being teased and wait another eight months for the release announcement. 'Coming soon' that's nice, Christmas is 'coming soon' too.



The development release of the Z9 and R3 are enough to help us plan out savings, if you are buying it, are the D6/1DxIII still better buys just now. Do we buy a Z7ii/R5 in the mean time. I mean perhaps Sony was better, just putting out the A1 and having it in peoples hands, maybe that is why we have development releases?


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## docsmith (Apr 14, 2021)

I guess I am more of a glass half full type. 

R5 is crazy amazing. Just killer in everything I have thrown at it. 

The R3 is going to be better.

...and the R1 is going to be even better. Wow. 
.
Realistically, I suspect the R3 will compete with the A1. High frame rate, high MP (60?). Unless those in the market are ready for >>>20MP, the R1 is still aimed at them, but ludicrous frame rates and other key features that really help professionals. Maybe global shutter.
This is all good.


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Apr 14, 2021)

12Broncos said:


> Is it just me, or could you do without a 'Development announcement' and just be satisfied with an announcement a week before the release? That way I'm excited for a week, instead of being teased and wait another eight months for the release announcement. 'Coming soon' that's nice, Christmas is 'coming soon' too.


The idea seems do be convincing people not to switch to Sony so fast and instead wait a few more months.

I would really like to know about new cameras very early, as it gives me the chance to make better decisions. For example if the R3 really comes out, I would already like to know a lot about the R1 that will probably arrive a few months later. It is so frustrating to buy a new camera and shortly after the same manufacturer come with a much better one. Especially if you are a hobbyist lke me who wants to use a camera for at least eight years.


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## blackcoffee17 (Apr 14, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> The idea seems do be convincing people not to switch to Sony so fast and instead wait a few more months.
> 
> I would really like to know about new cameras very early, as it gives me the chance to make better decisions. For example if the R3 really comes out, I would already like to know a lot about the R1 that will probably arrive a few months later. It is so frustrating to buy a new camera and shortly after the same manufacturer come with a much better one. Especially if you are a hobbyist lke me who wants to use a camera for at least eight years.



It's similar to having a lens roadmap for example. Helps with the purchasing decisions. Yes, it's annoying have to wait month to get the final specs but is it better not knowing anything until the release announcement?


----------



## mpmark (Apr 14, 2021)

Maximilian said:


> Interesting move in marketing and spec. Did I miss the MP count?


Canon never tell us the MP count until release day


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Apr 14, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> It's similar to having a lens roadmap for example. Helps with the purchasing decisions. Yes, it's annoying have to wait month to get the final specs but is it better not knowing anything until the release announcement?



Lens roadmap for Nikon Z was a big selling point for me, I can see exactly what is coming up. Canon having a roadmap with a 200-500 f/4.0 on it would have completely stopped me buying anything Nikon as I would have waited for it. Not that I am unhappy or planning on selling what I have. If that lens comes out, it can live on its on R3 and share the CF Express cards I have already purchased.


----------



## Sporgon (Apr 14, 2021)

justaCanonuser said:


> The most interesting news from my perspective is "...a Canon-developed, full-frame stacked CMOS sensor with a back-illuminated design..." A BSI sensor would be a real move from Canon to an - at least theoretically - improved low light performance.


Judging by Sony’s (and Nikon) move to BSI FF sensors there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of improved performance from what I can see. Crop sensors, yes.


----------



## Finn (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> I forget who said it in the last thread, but they were bang on when they guessed that Canon was trying its best to not "replace" the 1DX immediately.


I think it's more about bringing new technology to the market while not disrupting the conservative 1 series. I believe Canon is being conservative here. I welcome a 3 series camera in between the 1 series and 5 series especially if the video features are a notch above what they offer in 5 series.


----------



## eosbob (Apr 14, 2021)

This is the calm before the storm for sure. This will be a lower price point and spec pro level camera. This is a very smart move on Canon's part. I believe the flagship R1 will either be released later this year or next year for sure.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 14, 2021)

Quackator said:


> You forgot that EF and RF have different throat diameters,
> so this is wrong in scale.


Throat diameters are the same, EF vs RF.


----------



## john1970 (Apr 14, 2021)

A very interesting release for Canon. I am expecting that by Q3-Q4 2021 that there will be a high frame rate 40-50 MP cameras available to Sony, Canon, and Nikon shooters. 

My predictions:

R3: 40-50 MP BSI Stacked sensor, 30 fps electronic, 15 fps shutter, solid buffer, and top-of-the-line DPAF (released around the 2021 Olympics)

R1: 20-30 MP Global Shutter sensor, 40+ fps electronic, 20 fps shutter, unlimited buffer, QPAF (released around the 2022 Olympics)


----------



## jam05 (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Good grief, this doesn't answer many of my own questions!
> 
> "This camera will usher in a new category to the EOS R system, positioned squarely between the EOS R5 and EOS-1D X Mark III cameras. "
> 
> ...


Not as if it will be shipping tomorrow. Its a developement announcement. And if you know Canon history, units of it and the flagship will be used in Tokyo. The 1Dx2 was announced in February and in the hands of photographers in Rio. 6 months later. So chill and wait.


----------



## DBounce (Apr 14, 2021)

Diltiazem said:


> Canon Japan and Canon UK have mentioned, "high sensitivity" along with high speed. In the Canon world, high sensitivity means better low light and high ISO noise performance and that usually means not very high resolution. Interestingly, Canon UK says "a new era for pro sports photography and film making", I think this also rules out a very high-resolution camera. My feeling is that the resolution will be below that of R5, but higher than R6, probably around 30 MP. If Canon prices it around 5500 USD it will easily outsell a1 and Z9.


Strangely enough I was thinking this camera does not shoot video, as the images do not appear to show any holes for microphones.


----------



## jam05 (Apr 14, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I wonder how much the speed and dynamic range will improve with this new stacked sensor?
> 
> I was really hoping it was a high MP body like 80mp... but given it is all about speed... I would guess a max of 50mp like the A1.. maybe less


Will be sufficient resolution to match 1dx3 and use in the Olympic venues


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## jam05 (Apr 14, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Strangely enough I was thinking this camera does not shoot video, as the images do not appear to show any holes for microphones.


Its a 1dx body style with weather sealing equivalent. Why would it show holes for water egress?


----------



## DBounce (Apr 14, 2021)

VOTOXY said:


> My take on the R3 :
> 
> If the video specs are better or equivalent to the R5 / Sony FX3 with RAW video accross all resolutions, a nice flat profile, I will buy it.
> If for photography, it has at least a 45-50mp+ sensor, with at least 20fps shooting, I will buy it no questions asked.
> ...


Global shutter reads the entire sensor at once. This essentially removes the need for any mechanical shutter, meaning much higher fps are possible. Also, for video it removed the distortion that can occurs with rolling shutter when shooting fast moving objects or planning.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 14, 2021)

navastronia said:


> A smaller steering wheel wouldn't make a sportscar perform any better and would actually make it much harder for a driver to handle. Similarly, a more petite professional camera won't function any better than a larger camera and will also be harder for a photographer to handle.
> 
> Professional cameras are designed for sports, wildlife, and journalism, including in warzones. They should be tough and easy to grip (i.e., large enough), with distinct and tactile controls spaced appropriately.
> 
> This is all while leaving out the telephoto lens situation, which I'll let someone else explain, since I'm not a tele guy.


I didn't talk about tiny cameras. Just saying that there is a market for top-class camera sized something like R5. There are always people who thouht that "professional phones have to have a physical keyboard", "sports car has to have manual transmission", "electronic piano is never gonna be good enough to practise on", "proffesional cameras have to be big". But in the end, the market decides. And if there is a market for high-end but small cameras, then Canon is missing it. Canon needs to realize that a lot of people don't buy what they need. They buy what they want. And with the shrinking market of professionals, they'll need to rely more on those rich enthusiasts who always want to buy the best of the best but don't want to have this monster when their friend has A1.


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## jam05 (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Gordon Laing, in his video reveal of the R3's announcement, wondered aloud, "I wonder if there's some kind of physical spec limiting all three manufacturers to state 30 fps?"
> 
> As it happens, that spec looks like it's the read/write speed of CF Express cards...which are pretty much maxed out by shooting raw 30 FPS at 45 megapixels, depending on the exact file size.
> 
> It's such a small sidenote in the video, and I doubt he knows more than we do, but I suddenly really do believe that this camera is 45-ish megapixels. If Canon went for 24 megapixels, why not blow up the FPS even higher as a statement if CF express can handle 60 FPS at 24 megapixels?


CF express B used by Canon is more than 3 times as fast as CF express A used by Sony. Not the same write speed equivalent bus. Of course creating more heat. It has to written to disk. Thats the limiting factor along with readout. Readout is useless if the write bus cant handle the heat or speed.


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## DBounce (Apr 14, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Its a 1dx body style with weather sealing equivalent. Why would it show holes for water egress?


Why do you assume the holes would allow for water ingress? Notice the holes on the 1DXMK3, below the “EOS-1D”?
Remember IPhones are submersible to 30’ and have holes for both speakers and microphones.


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## jam05 (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Gordon Laing, in his video reveal of the R3's announcement, wondered aloud, "I wonder if there's some kind of physical spec limiting all three manufacturers to state 30 fps?"
> 
> As it happens, that spec looks like it's the read/write speed of CF Express cards...which are pretty much maxed out by shooting raw 30 FPS at 45 megapixels, depending on the exact file size.
> 
> It's such a small sidenote in the video, and I doubt he knows more than we do, but I suddenly really do believe that this camera is 45-ish megapixels. If Canon went for 24 megapixels, why not blow up the FPS even higher as a statement if CF express can handle 60 FPS at 24 megapixels?


CF express write speeds of CF express A used by Sony are not as fast as CF express B used by Canon. Of course that speed will induce heat.


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## sdz (Apr 14, 2021)

canonnews said:


> indeed!
> I would have bet money on canon not being ready to do a stacked CMOS (which by nature of how you stack a sensor, pretty much has to be BSI).
> Canon skipped at least 2 steps there.
> 
> ...


I can't say I'm a seasoned and tech savvy observer of the digital imaging market, but I suspected something like this would happen. Canon R&D may be a straight line with a positive slope in the lab, but shipping products can take great leaps that do not follow step-wise from the last product cycle. I would not be surprised if the 1R is that global shutter, quad pixel beast everyone dreams on. And it will work out of the box because that seems to be how Canon rolls. Of course, I would be wholly in the dark without the excellent reporting provided by Canon New and Canon Rumors!


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## Ozarker (Apr 14, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Its a 1dx body style with weather sealing equivalent. Why would it show holes for water egress?


Ingress. Only Sony provides a hole for egress.


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## jam05 (Apr 14, 2021)

jam05 said:


> CF express write speeds of CF express A used by Sony are not as fast as CF express B used by Canon. Of course that speed will induce heat. And all CF express cards as we know are not equivalent.


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## kaihp (Apr 14, 2021)

My bank account already started winching from the incoming of this camera. My poor poor bank acount 
R3, RF-EF adapter, CF Express cards, CF Express reader. Oh dear, my poor bank account.


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## jam05 (Apr 14, 2021)

Available at Olympic venues, July 23


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## jd7 (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> My bet after this evening's reveal:
> 
> ~45-50 megapixels, I lean towards 50 to add a slight step up from the R5. New sensor tech means it isn't just the same "old" 45 mp sensor from the R5.
> 30 FPS electronic shutter with ability to flash sync
> ...


I reckon you won't be too far wrong, although I'm not sure about the flip out screen.

I feel like this is Canon saying, see that Sony A1 over there, we can (more than?) match that with our R3, never mind what our R1 flagship will do! (In saying that, I don't mean to sound like a Canon fanboy. In fact, for my own photography needs/wants the Sony system (thanks in no small part to Sigma, Tamron and Samyang lenses available for it) seems to offer more good options for gear and much better value, so I don't mean to sound dismissive of Sony. However, it has to be said Canon does seem to be releasing a lot of excellent - albeit very expensive (at least in Australia!) - high end gear.)


----------



## DBounce (Apr 14, 2021)

I don’t think this camera shoots video. And if it does it will be extremely limited. No mention of video in the teaser and not a single microphone hole visible on the body.


----------



## usern4cr (Apr 14, 2021)

It's **great** to have a BSI stacked design - finally!
Also great to have eye tracking AF (I assume it will work fine)!

My main questions now are:
* Is there a fully articulating screen? (this is a *must* for me, personally)
* Is the back LCD bigger? (I'd really like this since the back has more area than the R5)
* Is there any (add-on) quick-connect ability to a tripod or monopod? (I guess I could tolerate the lack of this)
* (or course) What is the MP count? (I expect it to be 45MP or higher)

I was really hoping for QP (more than any other feature), but I hope the next high end body will have it.


----------



## MadisonMike (Apr 14, 2021)

If I was still shooting Canon I would be looking around for what I can sell, checking the seat cushions for spare change and looking for a second job. This would be my Camera. Other than that eye focus thing. That I hope can be disabled it is a gimmick that this camera does not need. The rest of the camera will sell it. Of course what sensor size, I know that is a big question. It will be at a minimum 21-24, which is totally fine for me. Sure those R5 50MP files look sweet, but I never complained about my current 24MP files. I know one day I will be back to Canon, it was my first camera and I have had several since. Canon is on a roll now with their current bodies.


----------



## Bahrd (Apr 14, 2021)

DBounce said:


> I don’t think this camera shoots video. And if it does it will be extremely limited. No mention of video in the teaser and not a single microphone hole visible on the body.


I would blame the rendering. Besides, the 30fps number makes it a video camera anyway...


----------



## WoodyWindy (Apr 14, 2021)

The original EOS 3 was a showcase of Canon tech at the time, eclipsing everything on the market - even the then top of line pro EOS 1n, until the EOS 1v came out. It was such an amazing camera for its time, with unmatched price/performance, that fans were constantly drooling waiting for a fantasy EOS 3D or D3 to be announced almost from the day Canon started going digital.

I think it is safe to say the EOS R3 will serve the same role, and this is (finally) the camera they have been waiting for.

That said, once it finally hit, the EOS 1v (as the "true" pro in the line) stomped all over EOS 3 performance in every way (except inclusion of eye control), and I suspect we'll see the same once the 1-class R is released. At a premium price, of course.


----------



## AEWest (Apr 14, 2021)

canonnews said:


> indeed!
> I would have bet money on canon not being ready to do a stacked CMOS (which by nature of how you stack a sensor, pretty much has to be BSI).
> Canon skipped at least 2 steps there.
> 
> ...


I am not surprised with the stacked sensor - Canon has been filing patents for this tech for some time. Petapixel showed one of these patents back in January.








Canon Patents a Combination High-Speed, High-Resolution Stacked Sensor


Normally sensor manufacturers have to choose between high speed and high resolution while also managing power consumption. Canon appears to be trying to




petapixel.com


----------



## Skyscraperfan (Apr 14, 2021)

Canon will also start a "Mobile File Transfer" app together with the R3 that can transfer files via the cellphone. That app will not be free though. I wonder how much it will cost. Somethng like that should be included if you buy such an expensive camera. Also it will only be available for iOS in the beginning. A strange move from a Japanese company.


----------



## PerKr (Apr 14, 2021)

justaCanonuser said:


> Unfortunately, the eye-tracking mode doesn't really work if you wear glasses, at least with my copy of an EOS 3. The EOS 3 had a lot of pro features in a smaller body, back then. Since the R3 has a big pro body, it is no real heir of the old "3" series. Well, people don't care about the revival of product lines that faded out nearly 20 years ago...



The old EOS-3 was similar in size to the EOS-1; built in vertical grips wasn't a thing back then, only the Nikon F5 had it. Just a few millimeters and about 100g between them. So this is actually the second revival of the 3-series. The first revival of the 3-series happened with the 5D mkIII as it got the top-level AF system (and the 6D then filled the "enthusiast FF" hole left by the 5D mkII), they just couldn't release a camera named "3D" without it actually doing 3D. 

If they get eye-controlled AF to work well, this will be a killer camera (it will be killer without the ECAF as well and for those who don't get ECAF to work it can just be deactivated). I want one. Unfortunately, I already know I can't justify buying a new one. The R5 is about $6k here and the R3 will probably be around the $8k mark, like the Sony A1. Guess the 1D replacement will be around the $10k mark.


----------



## Alan B (Apr 14, 2021)

Info on the UK's press release section

https://www.canon.co.uk/press-centr...-professional-mirrorless-for-sports-and-news/


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## unfocused (Apr 14, 2021)

Fischer said:


> No strong need for sunglasses when the viewfinder is electronic.


????


----------



## BroderLund (Apr 14, 2021)

I'm impressed how under wraps the R3 has been until this announcement. R5 was leaking way more before its development announcement.


----------



## angelisland (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> Is it just me or more and more people would like to buy a flagship camera if it's not this huge body? Everyone seems to like the A1 for it's smaller size so Canon could make one camera like this. At least for "marketing" purposes.


Are you personally in need of more than the 20 frames per second that the R5 provides?
What are people shooting at 30 frames per second? Birds? Sports? Whatever it is is there’s a good chance that it requires a big ass long and heavy lens, thus a bigger grip with vertical controls built in.


----------



## dcm (Apr 14, 2021)

Intrigued. Have used 6D/1DXII combo for years now. Had been waiting for R1 to decide between R5 and it to go with my R6. The decision just got more interesting. Hope R3 is the middle ground I’d been looking for.


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## dolina (Apr 14, 2021)

Thank you Sony for forcing competition. If it weren't for you then my prognosticating would become true


----------



## Traveler (Apr 14, 2021)

angelisland said:


> Are you personally in need of more than the 20 frames per second that the R5 provides?
> What are people shooting at 30 frames per second? Birds? Sports? Whatever it is is there’s a good chance that it requires a big ass long and heavy lens, thus a bigger grip with vertical controls built in.


As I said in another comment. There’s a lot of people who buy what they want. Not what they need. And Sony probably understood that better than Canon. 
You can see a lot of influencers being excited about the A1. It’s still a small camera but great on paper. They wouldn’t use anything like R3 or 1Dx. And other people tend to buy in brands that their favorite YouTuber uses. That’s why you can hear most young people talking about Sony rather than Canon. Maybe we don’t care about it but if canon doesn’t have enough money for R&D in ten years this may be part of it. But I can see that Canon is getting better with marketing.


----------



## Juangrande (Apr 14, 2021)

calfoto said:


> They still need a mechanical shutter unless new Canon technology can sync a flash to an electronic shutter.


I’ve been praying for exactly that lol


----------



## Manuel (Apr 14, 2021)

Thanks Canon, but I will save my money for the powerful professional EOS R1, and for the next RF 600mm f/4 mark II, ideally with the 1.4x incorporated...


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## TravelerNick (Apr 14, 2021)

They can't claim it's between the R5 and the 1DX and then price it like the 1DX. The R3 has to be cheaper. It also can't be obviously worse than the R5. There won't be obvious features from the R5 missing.

If anything they might be planning to cut the price on the R5.


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## DBounce (Apr 14, 2021)

This will come in around $5,000 and be a primarily stills focused camera with limited video features.


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## Dragon (Apr 14, 2021)

justaCanonuser said:


> The most interesting news from my perspective is "...a Canon-developed, full-frame stacked CMOS sensor with a back-illuminated design..." A BSI sensor would be a real move from Canon to an - at least theoretically - improved low light performance. So they would catch up with Sonikon sensor tech in that respect. I dunno why they hesitated so long, maybe they were waiting for some patents to end (like with IBIS). So I hope BSI will later trickle down to sensors in smaller camera bodies (which I personally prefer).


This could be the tech that the M5 II has been waiting for .


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 14, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> My guess is R3 being the high megapixel pro camera.
> The later R1 might be using the rumored 21MP global shutter sensor.
> 
> I also assume Canon generally will keep a 4 years release-frequenzy for their high-end pro camera(s). Ignoring the current scheduling chaos from COVID and general abnormalities caused by change of technology from DSLR to mirrorless, I'm guessing one camera released up to FIFA World Cups and the other body up to Summer Olympics. That could mean development-annoncements and release years like:
> ...



I think you have it backwards.

The R3 is the new sports/action/pj model.

The R1 will be the higher resolution studio/fashion/commercial photography model.

Time will tell.


----------



## landon (Apr 14, 2021)

For those with bifocals that might have trouble using Eye tracking. Here's a work around.


----------



## Dragon (Apr 14, 2021)

Diltiazem said:


> Canon Japan and Canon UK have mentioned, "high sensitivity" along with high speed. In the Canon world, high sensitivity means better low light and high ISO noise performance and that usually means not very high resolution. Interestingly, Canon UK says "a new era for pro sports photography and film making", I think this also rules out a very high-resolution camera. My feeling is that the resolution will be below that of R5, but higher than R6, probably around 30 MP. If Canon prices it around 5500 USD it will easily outsell a1 and Z9.


That depends on how you define sensitivity. By most measures, it is an area function, not a pixel function, so resolution is pretty much irrelevant. It would be interesting if this turns out to be the 100 MP monster (i.e. 200 MP with DPAF) and it still reads out that fast. That would be consistent with the big R5 leap and would have the desired effect of making Sony look "dated". It would also cause all those 7D2 whiners to have to reconsider their budget  , since the body is just about perfect for swinging big lenses and battery life should be decent. Throwing in an APS-c shooting mode with smaller files would be the coup de grace. Too early to know for sure, but the "3" moniker was used in the past for something with a lot of technological reach so many surprises could still be in store.


----------



## Rejay14 (Apr 14, 2021)

DBounce said:


> I don’t think this camera shoots video. And if it does it will be extremely limited. No mention of video in the teaser and not a single microphone hole visible on the body.


"Combined with the power of its DIGIC X imaging processor, professionals using EOS R3 will achieve next-level, high-speed photography and filmmaking."


----------



## Del Paso (Apr 14, 2021)

DBounce said:


> This will come in around $5,000 and be a primarily stills focused camera with limited video features.


In most European countries, the R5 costs $5000 (no kidding).
So, we could only dream of cheap $5000 for the R3, which, in my opinion, will be around $6500, if we're lucky...


----------



## pape2 (Apr 14, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> I think you have it backwards.
> 
> The R3 is the new sports/action/pj model.
> 
> ...


I think R1 willl be 20mpixel ,but pixel shift uses those quadbayers and makes 240mpixel picture. and with global shutter does it fast .
Maybe can even handhold shoot with wide angles.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 14, 2021)

TravelerNick said:


> They can't claim it's between the R5 and the 1DX and then price it like the 1DX. The R3 has to be cheaper. It also can't be obviously worse than the R5. There won't be obvious features from the R5 missing.
> 
> If anything they might be planning to cut the price on the R5.



The R5 is still selling way to well to come down in price any time soon. There _may_ be some temporary deals in November/Black Friday this year.


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 14, 2021)

TravelerNick said:


> They can't claim it's between the R5 and the 1DX and then price it like the 1DX. The R3 has to be cheaper. It also can't be obviously worse than the R5. There won't be obvious features from the R5 missing.
> 
> If anything they might be planning to cut the price on the R5.



I really hate to make Sony comparisons, because I know Canon doesn't spend much time worrying about the competition, but in an ideal world this would occupy the same market segment as the A9, which is only $4500. With a grip and higher res, I could see this being $5000, if it is truly between the 1D and the R5. It would make sense for me if Canon competed with both the A9 and A1 at a lower price point, and then the R1 blows both of them out of the water for $7000-8000 in a year or two.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 14, 2021)

Dragon said:


> That depends on how you define sensitivity. By most measures, it is an area function, not a pixel function, so resolution is pretty much irrelevant. It would be interesting if this turns out to be the 100 MP monster (i.e. 200 MP with DPAF) and it still reads out that fast. That would be consistent with the big R5 leap and would have the desired effect of making Sony look "dated". It would also cause all those 7D2 whiners to have to reconsider their budget  , since the body is just about perfect for swinging big lenses and battery life should be decent. Throwing in an APS-c shooting mode with smaller files would be the coup de grace. Too early to know for sure, but the "3" moniker was used in the past for something with a lot of technological reach so many surprises could still be in store.



This is the "low resolution" 30-45 MP sports/action/pj model. The R1 will be the high MP studio/fashion/commercial photography model.


----------



## landon (Apr 14, 2021)

Canon R5 firmware 1.3.1 is out. Fixes view assist issue.


----------



## Scarris (Apr 14, 2021)

I wonder if this camera would have been called the R1 had the Sony A1 not come out beforehand. I'm guessing that now Canon will make the R1 a super-expensive do it all camera that excels for all types of photography, not just sports.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 14, 2021)

Scarris said:


> I wonder if this camera would have been called the R1 had the Sony A1 not come out beforehand. I'm guessing that now Canon will make the R1 a super-expensive do it all camera that excels for all types of photography, not just sports.


I don't think the A1 influenced Canon's name choice at all. What does Sony make? Steak Sauce?


----------



## Stig Nygaard (Apr 14, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> I think you have it backwards.



Well, that's why I wrote it. Most people think opposite, but that doesn't make much sense to me.

First of all, this is following very close to the release of the 1DXIII, and it doesn't sound like it is meant to replace that.

Secondly, with the R5, Canon has demonstrated they have technology for very fast sensor-readout now, even using non-stacked design. The readout speed from R5's 45MP sensor is actually very similar to the 12MP sensor in Sony A7S3 and to the 24MP stacked sensors in the A9II (and much much faster than the 20MP sensor in R6/1DXIII). So why waste stacked sensor design on a low megapixel sensor, unless it is for a completely insane fast camera? And yes, the promised 30fps is really fast, but not _insane_ fast.

My guess is R3 could be using a stacked variant of R5's 45MP sensor design.



Michael Clark said:


> Time will tell.



Yes, we are all guessing and speculating


----------



## macrunning (Apr 14, 2021)

Canfan said:


> Hope we see a new firmware upgrade for the R5 and R6 for improved subject recognition and tracking. My R5 does pick up some of the local wildlife.


I totally agree. Small birds have been very difficult to track, even at 3-5ft away with a 24-105 lens. I'm sure many are using the big zooms and are would provide better tracking but right now my pockets are empty just from the R5 and few lenses I do have now. With that said it would seem to make sense for Canon to issue firmware updates to their cameras like Apple provides updates for it's software for it's computers. This not only extends the life of the camera but reaffirms to customers that they are dedicated to providing the very best equipment. We are no longer in just the mechanical space of cameras but the software space.


----------



## st jack photography (Apr 14, 2021)

After I shot with my Sony rx1rm2, I swore to never buy a Canon body until they got their head around a BSI sensor, so to see this brings tears to my eye.
*With innovation like this, I would love to see Canon dabble in medium format.* Affordable MF competition is low, so it might be doable if it was priced at Fuji levels (not Hasselblad.) IMO, which is fairly worthless, a Canon medium format would only need a few good, innovative lenses and competitive prices, coupled with its reputation, in order to beat the competition, which is stagnant and lackluster at present. Fuji seems to be the only real innovators in affordable MF. I think that market as a whole is ripe for innovation if the prices are good and the gear decent.
Of course, it seems everybody instead wants a ridiculous aps-c RF-mount, which makes no sense to me with mirrorless being small and light and more affordable, but there are probably reasons that a bokeh-obsessed, narrow DoF-loving, wide open shooter like me cannot see.
I doubt I will buy this, still waiting on a high MP body to replace my old 5DSr, but this gives me hope that the *high MP camera has this body shape and a BSI sensor.*


----------



## reef58 (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> I really hate to make Sony comparisons, because I know Canon doesn't spend much time worrying about the competition, but in an ideal world this would occupy the same market segment as the A9, which is only $4500. With a grip and higher res, I could see this being $5000, if it is truly between the 1D and the R5. It would make sense for me if Canon competed with both the A9 and A1 at a lower price point, and then the R1 blows both of them out of the water for $7000-8000 in a year or two.


According to people who own both who seem impartial the Canon R5 competes very well with the A9.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 14, 2021)

MartinF. said:


> Canon for sure know the art of market- and product segmentation. Now we will have a R1 (within a year or two when the 1DmkIII sales have peaked) a R3 as "full size - integrated grip" and fully weathersealed photojournalistic workhorses that will settle in the current 1D segment. And then the R5 and R6 that settles probably both in the current 5D segment. (R6 seems to be appealing to current prof. 5D series users).
> If that analyses is correct will there then be a R-body for the current 6D segement and then maybe a R-body for the current 7D segement?
> That will be the "high end" of the R-series.
> But how about current 80D - 90D series and the rebels?
> ...



The R6 is a pretty straightforward development of the direction the 6D was going. 

Other than build quality and durability the 6D Mark II (2017) was every bit the equal of the 5D Mark III (2012) save for dual card slots, 1/4000 instead of 1/8000, a _slightly_ less capable AF system, and 1/180 instead of 1/200 x-Sync. At the same time, the 5D Mark IV (2016) had increased resolution from 22 to 30 MP, then the 6D Mark II (2017) was 26 MP and, like the 5D Mark IV, included an RGB+IR light meter that the 5D III lacked.

The R6 doesn't have quite the build quality of the R5, it has no top LCD to see current settings, a lower resolution EVF and smaller rear LCD screen, and obviously no 8K video.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 14, 2021)

Fischer said:


> No strong need for sunglasses when the viewfinder is electronic.



I've never liked shooting with sunglasses on. I've always tilted them up on the top of my head while shooting and then move them back over my eyes during breaks in the action.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 14, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> The idea seems do be convincing people not to switch to Sony so fast and instead wait a few more months.
> 
> I would really like to know about new cameras very early, as it gives me the chance to make better decisions. For example if the R3 really comes out, I would already like to know a lot about the R1 that will probably arrive a few months later. It is so frustrating to buy a new camera and shortly after the same manufacturer come with a much better one. Especially if you are a hobbyist lke me who wants to use a camera for at least eight years.



Canon has been doing development announcements longer than Sony has been making ILCs. Maybe even longer than Sony has been making fixed lens still cameras.


----------



## angelisland (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> As I said in another comment. There’s a lot of people who buy what they want. Not what they need. And Sony probably understood that better than Canon.
> You can see a lot of influencers being excited about the A1. It’s still a small camera but great on paper. They wouldn’t use anything like R3 or 1Dx. And other people tend to buy in brands that their favorite YouTuber uses. That’s why you can hear most young people talking about Sony rather than Canon. Maybe we don’t care about it but if canon doesn’t have enough money for R&D in ten years this may be part of it. But I can see that Canon is getting better with marketing.


I’m guessing maybe Canon is less concerned about the “young people” who are not pros spending 7K on a camera…
I’m also guessing such a person would be fine slumming it with a $4000 20 FPS R5 .
cheers.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Apr 14, 2021)

Wow, the eye tracking AF could be a game changer. I know the old EOS 3 was limited by the preset focus points, but if this behaves more like those Tobii Eye Tracking devices, where it accurately positions the gaze bubble where you are looking then you can pinpoint exactly what you want in focus. The R5 AF is so sticky that sometimes it locks onto something that you don't want in focus and it takes a second and some effort to force it on what you really want. If you can override it with just a glance that's pretty awesome.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 14, 2021)

john1970 said:


> A very interesting release for Canon. I am expecting that by Q3-Q4 2021 that there will be a high frame rate 40-50 MP cameras available to Sony, Canon, and Nikon shooters.
> 
> My predictions:
> 
> ...



R1 will be 80-100 MP.


----------



## Refraction (Apr 14, 2021)

I have never seen so many words with so little information. Probably designed to stop people buying the Sony A1 until they see the full specs. Nice looking body though


----------



## cayenne (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Haven't seen this photo posted anywhere, but it was in the DPReview TV first reaction video here: https://www.dpreview.com/videos/875...jordan-react-to-the-canon-eos-r3-announcement
> 
> View attachment 196951
> 
> ...



At this point, I can't imagine Canon putting out any new predominately stills cameras, at least high end, without IBIS.

cayenne


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## Sidepod (Apr 14, 2021)

not mentioning any video specs? why?


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 14, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> My guess is R3 could be using a stacked variant of R5's 45MP sensor design.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we are all guessing and speculating



It's not all speculation.

"TOKYO, April 14, 2021—Canon Inc. announced today that the company is currently developing the new EOS R3 full-frame mirrorless camera, which will feature a newly developed 35mm full-frame, back illuminated, stacked CMOS sensor and a DIGIC X image processor."

The R5 sensor is not back illuminated.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Apr 14, 2021)

tataylino said:


> I am guessing this is supposed to be called R1 but they decided to call it R3 when they saw the spec of the sony A1.


Only if you have no idea about how long design & manufacturing works for these products. Also, I'm pretty sure all these companies have a pretty good idea what the others are making. If this isn't even the top of the line model that only means the R1 would kill the A1 & Z9. And then Sony would have to go back to selling life insurance & PlayStations.


----------



## DBounce (Apr 14, 2021)

Rejay14 said:


> "Combined with the power of its DIGIC X imaging processor, professionals using EOS R3 will achieve next-level, high-speed photography and filmmaking."


Yeah, that’s from the UK website. It’s also interesting that it’s using the current Digic X and not a new processor. I think that might in and of itself speak to a lack of effort in regards to video.


----------



## navastronia (Apr 14, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> The idea seems do be convincing people not to switch to Sony so fast and instead wait a few more months.
> 
> I would really like to know about new cameras very early, as it gives me the chance to make better decisions. For example if the R3 really comes out, I would already like to know a lot about the R1 that will probably arrive a few months later. It is so frustrating to buy a new camera and shortly after the same manufacturer come with a much better one. Especially if you are a hobbyist lke me who wants to use a camera for at least eight years.



I just don't buy the argument that anyone already invested in Canon gear would sooner switch to Sony (to get an a1, I suppose?) than pick up an R5. Feels unlikely.


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## DBounce (Apr 14, 2021)

Sidepod said:


> not mentioning any video specs? why?


No microphone... why?


----------



## cayenne (Apr 14, 2021)

Sporgon said:


> Judging by Sony’s (and Nikon) move to BSI FF sensors there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of improved performance from what I can see. Crop sensors, yes.


The Fuji GFX100 and 100S have the BSI Digital Medium format sensor....works pretty well there.

I'd have to think if Canon is going this route, they're seeing a benefit.


----------



## Stig Nygaard (Apr 14, 2021)

Michael Clark said:


> It's not all speculation.
> 
> The R5 sensor is not back illuminated.



Well, I didn't literately mean two R5-sensors stacked on top of each other or something. And doesn't have to be exactly 45MP either for the matter. I'm not into technical aspects of sensor design, but guessing something inheriting technology were relevant with added stacked and back-illuminated technology.


----------



## navastronia (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> I didn't talk about tiny cameras. Just saying that there is a market for top-class camera sized something like R5. There are always people who thouht that "professional phones have to have a physical keyboard", "sports car has to have manual transmission", "electronic piano is never gonna be good enough to practise on", "proffesional cameras have to be big". But in the end, the market decides. And if there is a market for high-end but small cameras, then Canon is missing it. Canon needs to realize that a lot of people don't buy what they need. They buy what they want. And with the shrinking market of professionals, they'll need to rely more on those rich enthusiasts who always want to buy the best of the best but don't want to have this monster when their friend has A1.



The a1 doesn't even have a top display. It's not a serious camera. You're absolutely correct to suggest that it's a body for "rich enthusiasts" (who chase specs) rather than professionals who want the best camera possible for their work.

People make the argument that "the market decides" every week on this forum. Yeah, definitely. I hope everyone whose needs are best met by the a1 goes ahead and _buys_ an a1. If they can afford it, that is!


----------



## navastronia (Apr 14, 2021)

DBounce said:


> This will come in around $5,000 and be a primarily stills focused camera with limited video features.


No high-end Canon body will ever again have "limited video features." The 5D mk II was 13 years ago. We expect video alongside photo.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Apr 14, 2021)

Where is this idea that a lower-numbered, higher-end, more expensive Canon camera would have worse video specs than an older, cheaper, higher-numbered Canon one coming from? Even the 1DX-series bodies had pretty good video specs compared to the lower-end bodies. The 1DX3 even has oversampled 5K video.


----------



## marathonman (Apr 14, 2021)

Genius idea to launch the R3. Focus on stills and take the pros that have little to no interest in video from 1dx range to R3. R1 has to be the absolute pinnacle of what Canon can achieve for both stills and video. Another year to cook it better won't hurt either. Also they could bump the price up for R1 when it launches and lessen any potential impact of cannibalization of cinema line.... 

These guys are too cute.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 14, 2021)

Refraction said:


> I have never seen so many words with so little information. Probably designed to stop people buying the Sony A1 until they see the full specs. Nice looking body though


Most people aren’t switching between systems just because some other company has the latest hotness. If that were true, those dummies would be switching every year or so. Not happening.


----------



## canonmike (Apr 14, 2021)

So, after reading official announcement of an upcoming EOS R3 body, with improved AF, optional eye controlled focus point selection, 30FP electronic shutter, back illuminated stacked sensor, EOS 1D style weather sealing, built in vertical grip, along with the statement that the EOS R5 was just the beginning, I cannot begin to imagine what the R1 will ultimately bring to the table. I'm now tightening my belt for this upcoming Canon roller coaster ride and holding on with both hands. Please don't let my wife see the price of this beast when it is officially published. I'm also trying to figure out which body part(s) I am willing to give up in trade for this beast. If this camera is everything they say it is, I won't mind you watching my happy dance when it becomes available. I cannot begin to justify buying it but just wanting it can sometimes be the best argument. After all guys, what do we work for if we cannot allow ourselves some nice toys here and there??? Pardon me now, while I go take measurements and make a place on the photographic bookshelf for my new EOS R3 body. I promise to keep same dusted while I wait for preorder availability.


----------



## navastronia (Apr 14, 2021)

marathonman said:


> Genius idea to launch the R3. *Focus on stills *and take the pros that have little to no interest in video from 1dx range to R3. R1 has to be the absolute pinnacle of what Canon can achieve for both stills and video. Another year to cook it better won't hurt either. Also they could bump the price up for R1 when it launches and lessen any potential impact of cannibalization of cinema line....
> 
> These guys are too cute.


The R3 is going to be the best video camera Canon has released outside one of their cinema lines. You can quote me.


----------



## PrimusDiMaximus (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> But I don't think all professionals use 400mm and 600mm lenses


In Sports most but not all...


----------



## canonmike (Apr 14, 2021)

canonnews said:


> I freaking hated it with the EOS-3 and Elan, and it's going to be worse now because I wear photochromatic progressive bifocals.


I wear eyeglasses and I personally, did not experience any eye controlled focus problems with either of my two EOS 3 film bodies. I loved and embraced the feature. However, I'm not so sure my experience with R3 will replicate my former results, as like you, my glasses are now not only progressive lenses but also transitional. If this "OPTIONAL" new feature works, that's great but that's not the reason I will be buying this body. I have no doubt that reg AF, complimented by BSI stacked sensor and high frame rates will perform just fine for me. If the eye controlled focus point selection works with my eye glasses, that will be an added bonus. I have to admit that I have never pre-ordered a camera, ever. I have always waited on the early adopters to buy, use, assess and report problems back to Canon, so they could get the bugs fixed. Then, once there was some downward movement on pricing, I would consider purchasing, right after B&H or Adorama would notify me of a promo on same. This time, once I hear and am satisfied with the specs, I plan to jump in with both feet, pay full MSRP and enjoy my new Canon Camera. I won't really be able to justify the price but I just don't care. Give it to me Canon. I've worked for it, I've earned it and I want it.


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 14, 2021)

I'll hazard an uneducated guess we get the official announcement in early June, have it for photogs to test at Olympics, and an official release in the beginning of August maybe.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 14, 2021)

navastronia said:


> I just don't buy the argument that anyone already invested in Canon gear would sooner switch to S*ny (to get an a1, I suppose?) than pick up an R5. Feels unlikely.



You must have missed all those people a couple of years ago who said they were going to go get a S*ny.



Of course, they were mostly paid trolls. Another product S*ny excels at.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 14, 2021)

Sidepod said:


> not mentioning any video specs? why?



Since they're talking about stills features, based on the R5 experience, I'd suspect it's primarily a video camera.

This camera will drop to the temperature of liquid nitrogen if you take too many stills, then shutdown until it warms up. But you can shoot 12K 120p video on it all day without it cooling off.


----------



## tron (Apr 14, 2021)

They got our money first for R then for R5. Of course they would get them for R3 before getting them for R1


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## SteveC (Apr 14, 2021)

I'm probably not in the market for this anyway, but from what I'm seeing, I wouldn't be surprised if the autofocus chokes on my scleral hard contacts.

Unless it turns out to be a unicorn at my friendly brick-and-mortar, I'll have to try it some day.


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## Ozarker (Apr 14, 2021)

This makes me happy. By the time I get ready to replace my R, there’ll be some great choices. No rush. 3 more years. Glass first.


----------



## navastronia (Apr 14, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> This makes me happy. By the time I get ready to replace my R, there’ll be some great choices. No rush. 3 more years. Glass first.


I feel this. I only last month purchased the 2 RF primes I was missing, the Samyang 85/1.4 and 14/2.8. They’re amazing, of course, on my RP


----------



## StandardLumen (Apr 14, 2021)

I'm definitely going to _want_ this camera, the question is whether or not it will be good enough to actually make me buy it, considering I own the already-great R5, and the R1 is still on the horizon.


----------



## chrisrmueller (Apr 14, 2021)

Hmmm. Maybe their intention is to break out the flagship line between the R3/R1 like they used to with the 1D/1Ds. One more for PJ/high speed work and another for studio.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> As it happens, that spec looks like it's the read/write speed of CF Express cards...which are pretty much maxed out by shooting raw 30 FPS at 45 megapixels, depending on the exact file size.


CFExpress Type-B is much faster than Type-A.
If that were the limiting factor R3 would be faster.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 14, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> ~45-50 megapixels, I lean towards 50 to add a slight step up from the R5. New sensor tech means it isn't just the same "old" 45 mp sensor from the R5.


I think either R1 or R3 has to be at least 45MP and shoot 8K RAW video.
That makes me wonder about the point of R5c.
Maybe built-in ND is enough or it will need to do 8K 60 FPS.
As much as I do not need it, IBIS + ND would be tempting.


H. Jones said:


> But in order to exceed the R5, it also definitely needs to exceed the R6


R6 has the same sensor and image processor of 1DX III which Canon claims is above R3.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 14, 2021)

VOTOXY said:


> If the video specs are better or equivalent to the R5 / Sony FX3 with RAW video accross all resolutions, a nice flat profile


I highly doubt there will be RAW across all resolutions.
Canon does not even do that in Cinema cameras.
In RAW you can choose any profile you want.


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 14, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> R6 has the same sensor and image processor of 1DX III which Canon claims is above R3.


Yeah, I get that, I just mean that I don't think Canon is expecting us to buy a $6000 version of the R6 with a built in grip. If the R3 is 20-24 megapixels at 30 fps, it will be hard to justify why you wouldn't just buy two R6 and have 20mp at 20 fps. I get stacked sensor means incredible readout speeds, and there's more to a camera than just these specs as seen in the 1dx mark III, but I do believe this will be roughly around the same resolution as the R5.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 14, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Global shutter reads the entire sensor at once. This essentially removes the need for any mechanical shutter, meaning much higher fps are possible. Also, for video it removed the distortion that can occurs with rolling shutter when shooting fast moving objects or planning.


I am not sure that a global shutter fully replaces a mechanical shutter at lower speeds.


----------



## StandardLumen (Apr 14, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> R6 has the same sensor and image processor of 1DX III which Canon claims is above R3.


It seems to me that the majority of people agree that the R5 is generally as good or better than the 1DX III, I feel like Canon's claims that the R3 will sit between the R5 and 1DX III is really more about preserving the dignity of the "1" moniker.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 14, 2021)

Traveler said:


> That’s why you can hear most young people talking about Sony rather than Canon.


I find regular people who are not into tech and do not have a lot of camera experience recommend Canon because their cameras are easier to use.
Most tech and video channels recommend Sony, but a few recognize that most people can't edit 4K on their computers recommend Canon.


----------



## Treyarnon (Apr 14, 2021)

By not mentioning any of the important specs, this is more of a teaser then a 'development announcement' - my guess is that the R3 will basically be a 'Mirrorless 1Dx3', with a few new bells and whistles of course - with the 'R1' name being held over for a high MP body like the Sony A1.

If the R3 does go high resolution, with 45+ MP, then I honestly don't know where Canon could go with the R1 (medium format maybe???)


----------



## jam05 (Apr 14, 2021)

Jethro said:


> I think the wording of the announcement points towards quite a wait before an R1 (replacement for the 1DXiii) is announced. The roadmap they are painting is R5 / R3 / 1DXiii.


For right now. "Quite a wait" may be anywhere from 6 months to 8 months. They dont want every 1Dx3 one camera owner to purchase this camera. It would seem logical for them to purchase the R1 instead. However many professionals own 2 or more bodies.


----------



## jam05 (Apr 14, 2021)

Good move maybe for multiple body owners to swap one of their 1dx3s for an R3, and then swap out the other for the R1


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## Randywayne (Apr 14, 2021)

I held off on buying the R5 (still love my 5D Mark IV, along with a Sony A7 III). I just want to know the price. If it is a little North of the R5, which I expect, I am all in, but if it is priced in 1DX territory, then, well, not gonna happen.


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## Czardoom (Apr 15, 2021)

Traveler said:


> As I said in another comment. There’s a lot of people who buy what they want. Not what they need. And Sony probably understood that better than Canon.
> You can see a lot of influencers being excited about the A1. It’s still a small camera but great on paper. They wouldn’t use anything like R3 or 1Dx. And other people tend to buy in brands that their favorite YouTuber uses. That’s why you can hear most young people talking about Sony rather than Canon. Maybe we don’t care about it but if canon doesn’t have enough money for R&D in ten years this may be part of it. But I can see that Canon is getting better with marketing.


Yes, I think there is no question that Sony has done a great job of marketing, especially with younger folks who are far more likely (I would think) to be influenced by reviewers (and reviews) on the internet and social media. They understood early that the internet was the most powerful outlet for propaganda that marketing has ever seen. How much was actually organized by Sony and how much was organized by Sony fans is hard to say, but they were (and still are) all over the forums such as this one and many others. The number of pro-Sony YouTube reviewers seemed to far outnumber the other brands - often repeating the same info word for word. Up until the release of the R5 and R6, the moment a new Canon camera was released, a dozen or more anti-Canon reviews were on the internet. Personally, I consider the propaganda techniques of the Sony fandom (whether endorsed or organized by Sony itself) to be such a turn-off that I would never buy a Sony camera again. The other reason I wouldn't buy another Sony is that I did buy the first two versions of the A7 and found that the "great specs' did not translate to being a great camera. I think time has shown that Sony makes great sensors and basically cuts corners on most other aspects of the camera. I'm sure they have improved things, but things I have experienced and read about from photographers over the years make me think that they still are cutting corners when it comes to ergonomics, dust removal, weather sealing, color science, even IBIS. I saw a really high level photographer doing a video on the essentials of post processing. One item was making sure you remove all the dust spots from your photo. I found this most surprising, until I saw that his camera was a Sony! He had more dust spots on one photo than I have in a many month's worth of photos! And now we have a class action law suit against Sony regarding their camera's shutters failing long before their supposed number of actuations. Why am I not surprised? 

As for Canon either changing the name or somehow changing their plans regarding the R3 and R1 due to trying to keep folks from buying a Sony? Please, how silly! This camera, and the upcoming R1 will have been under development for 2 or 3 years already. So, no last minute changes will have been made. Plus, anyone in the market for this type of camera will have many thousands of dollars invested in lenses - and will know that it is the lenses that make the system. If they are invested in Canon , they are not jumping to the Sony A1 or A9 because of a few glitzy specs. That's my opinion.


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## tron (Apr 15, 2021)

Treyarnon said:


> By not mentioning any of the important specs, this is more of a teaser then a 'development announcement' - my guess is that the R3 will basically be a 'Mirrorless 1Dx3', with a few new bells and whistles of course - with the 'R1' name being held over for a high MP body like the Sony A1.
> 
> If the R3 does go high resolution, with 45+ MP, then I honestly don't know where Canon could go with the R1 (medium format maybe???)


Well it is impossible to go to medium format (mount, lenses) but they could introduce global shutter and Quad Pixel AF among others (which I cannot imagine!)


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## CanonOregon (Apr 15, 2021)

goldenhusky said:


> I am more thrilled about the following two items.
> Full-frame stacked CMOS sensor with a back-illuminated design
> Eye Control AF2
> I own a EOS 3 which has eye control AF (let's call it ECAF). Yeah it kind of works. I am hoping ECAF2 will be way better than the ECAF on EOS 3
> My other hope is that it is at least 50 MP camera and will have IBIS


I know the EOS 3 eye control worked randomly depending on the user's eyes but it worked great for me! Just wish it'd come in on a camera that I don't have to hock the first born for!


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## reef58 (Apr 15, 2021)

DBounce said:


> Yeah, that’s from the UK website. It’s also interesting that it’s using the current Digic X and not a new processor. I think that might in and of itself speak to a lack of effort in regards to video.


How so are you looking for more than 8k?


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## reef58 (Apr 15, 2021)

StandardLumen said:


> It seems to me that the majority of people agree that the R5 is generally as good or better than the 1DX III, I feel like Canon's claims that the R3 will sit between the R5 and 1DX III is really more about preserving the dignity of the "1" moniker.


AS a 1dx and R5 owner I don't disagree. That being said it does have some advantages over the R5


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 15, 2021)

Czardoom said:


> Up until the release of the R5 and R6, the moment a new Canon camera was released, a dozen or more anti-Canon reviews were on the internet.


It happened with R5 and R6 as well.
I have noticed that people complain about Sony in forums but not really on YouTube.
People complain about all brands somewhat but with Canon, there is always outrage.


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## Jethro (Apr 15, 2021)

jam05 said:


> For right now. "Quite a wait" may be anywhere *from 6 months to 8 months*. They dont want every 1Dx3 one camera owner to purchase this camera. It would seem logical for them to purchase the R1 instead. However many professionals own 2 or more bodies.


Longer than that. The R3 won't be shipping until (at the very earliest) late this year, and more likely well into next year. I'd be very surprised to see an R1 in the shops before 2023. Which is more like a normal 'life cycle' for the 1DXiii (given that model was an evolutionary change from the previous model).


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## Jethro (Apr 15, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Good move maybe for multiple body owners to swap one of their 1dx3s for an R3, and then swap out the other for the R1


I think it will depend on the specs. People use 1DXs for very different purposes (different types of stills, video), and I get the impression the R3 is going to be more 'targeted' at particular users. Interesting they don't talk about video capabilities at all (it's all FPS and eye-AF), so maybe it's more stills / sports based. Details of the sensor (when it is announced or leaked) will tell us a lot more. But it's also likely they're trying out at least some of the new hardware (including their own in-house sensors) first in a body which is not the flagship pro body.


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## djack41 (Apr 15, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> I wonder how much the speed and dynamic range will improve with this new stacked sensor?
> 
> I was really hoping it was a high MP body like 80mp... but given it is all about speed... I would guess a max of 50mp like the A1.. maybe less


Only 50mp.........what a bummer!


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## DBounce (Apr 15, 2021)

reef58 said:


> How so are you looking for more than 8k?


Higher frame rates might be nice.


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## simonxu11 (Apr 15, 2021)

The R3's eye control AF is for still subjects only as far as I know.


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## canonmike (Apr 15, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It happened with R5 and R6 as well.
> I have noticed that people complain about Sony in forums but not really on YouTube.
> People complain about all brands somewhat but with Canon, there is always outrage.


I have to agree with your Canon outrage sentiment. Expanding on that, it always amazes me how so many You Tubers' quickly make excuses for any Sony shortcomings, whether perceived or real. This same camp seems to immediately seek out, in a special effort, no less, to find something, anything wrong with a new Canon offering, then wear their Canon complaint like it's some sort of badge of honor, as they look for another feature or shortcoming to trash and bash. I learned a long time ago, that in buying Canon gear, it doesn't have to beat Sony, it just has to work for me and take my existing Canon lens inventory. It never ceases to amaze me how some Sony fan boys insist their gear makes them king of the hill, while in the same breath they are challenging every single thing Canon does, in order to validate their use of Sony eqpt, rarely admitting to the fact that Canon makes some pretty great cameras and lenses. Take Hugh B of Three complainers and a Blind Elephant, for instance. Here we have an X Canon user, emphasis on the X, who exemplifies the Canon just can't get it right school of thought but oh my gosh, how he gives carte blanche while wearing blinders, to every single thing Sony does, is, has done and will be doing. I guess this is just the price that Canon has to pay for being at the top of the heap. So many just love to take a pot shot and see if they can just somehow relegate Canon to the bottom of the pile.


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## Skux (Apr 15, 2021)

This is the R1 in all but name. It makes no sense to have the R3 as well as an R1 which would have the same large integrated vertical battery grip form factor.

There could be a number of reasons for this:

- They don't want to say the 1DX3 is already superseded by this model when it's only a little over a year old

- They know they can't compete with Sony's A1 on price/features and so have given it a mid-tier designation to avoid direct comparisons

- They feel obliged to release a high-end mirrorless camera and lenses with the Olympics coming up, but don't have the 'real' R1 ready yet

I anticipate that once the R1 is released in 2-3 years' time, this model line will quietly fade away, much like the EOS R was undercooked and quickly forgotten about with the arrival of the R5.


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## gregster (Apr 15, 2021)

simonxu11 said:


> The R3's eye control AF is for still subjects only as far as I know.



Canon USA is quite clear that it works in still photo shooting (so not video) using the EVF. Whether the subject is static or not shouldn't matter.

"1During still-image shooting only, through the electronic viewfinder"





Canon U.S.A., Inc. | EOS R3







www.usa.canon.com


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## sanj (Apr 15, 2021)

reef58 said:


> How so are you looking for more than 8k?


OP does not mention 8k. There is lots more to video specs than just resolution.


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## sanj (Apr 15, 2021)

Wrong thread to mention this but the rental market - for video especially, has been wiped out for Canon in India. Replaced by Sony more than 90%.


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## bernie_king (Apr 15, 2021)

Skux said:


> This is the R1 in all but name. It makes no sense to have the R3 as well as an R1 which would have the same large integrated vertical battery grip form factor.
> 
> There could be a number of reasons for this:
> 
> ...


Remember the "crazy" R1 specs that were leaked a while ago? I'm starting to think they aren't that crazy. 

Not naming this the R1 because of the 1DX III is not a valid business reason to create a new line, so I doubt that as well. You don't hold back new technology in a highly competitive market because someone may not be happy their camera was replaced after a couple of years. They were also able to reuse much of the tech (Sensor, Processor, Software) in the R6 and R5. They have recouped their investment. The people who these cameras are designed for don't care... they don't buy them anyway. The companies that do can justify the cost by the return. An R1 will likely make that workstream more efficient which makes the cost negligible. They also don't have an ego about the number plastered on the front of the camera. They are just tools. I think the market for the R3 are professionals that buy their own gear (ie not employed by a large organization) and people like us who have enough money and passion to want a better camera but may balk at the likely $8k price tag of the R1. 

As far as the A1 goes... most direct comparisons show the R5 holding its own against the A1, this one will likely crush it. I'm quite sure Canon doesn't see the A1 as a competitor for the R1. That camera likely doesn't exist. Camera bodies are developed over years. Companies also have a good idea what their competitors are up to. You can be sure they knew the A1 was coming for quite some time. The move to mirrorless is, I'm sure, a program with multiple projects each with specific deliverables and likely is scheduled out at least 5 years. Covid likely delayed some portion of the R5/R6 projects which probably held this one up as well. Expect to see it before the Summer Olympics with a US cost of just under 6k. I expect to see the R1 arriving before the Winter Olympics in 2022 at around USD 8K.


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## Traveler (Apr 15, 2021)

Czardoom said:


> Yes, I think there is no question that Sony has done a great job of marketing, especially with younger folks who are far more likely (I would think) to be influenced by reviewers (and reviews) on the internet and social media. ... ... I'm sure they have improved things, but things I have experienced and read about from photographers over the years make me think that they still are cutting corners when it comes to ergonomics, dust removal, weather sealing, color science, even IBIS. .... If they are invested in Canon , they are not jumping to the Sony A1 or A9 because of a few glitzy specs. That's my opinion.


I couldn't agree with you more! We're on the same boat, same experience with Sony. I really wanted to go mirrorles but the A7iii was such a bad camera to me, I couldn't get over it (great tech at the time, I admit, but everything else... as you said).
But thats why I'm kinda sad that Canon doesn't do more with their marketing, it's still so old school. When you see canon and sony ad on facebook, you understand why young people go Sony.
One thing I'd slightly disagree with you is that I can really see quite some people jumping systems regardless of number of lenses they owned. I know it's stupid but it is as it is. And those people are the ones who later share their opinions on social media, etc... so.. I just don't want Canon to suffer from lack of marketing when their tech is great.


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## Chris.Chapterten (Apr 15, 2021)

djack41 said:


> Only 50mp.........what a bummer!


Haha yeah, seems a bit crazy to want more than that... but I already own an R5 and would only be interested in an R3 if it significantly increased the resolution beyond the R5 (for studio work so I don’t care about the speed side of things at all)


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## pape2 (Apr 15, 2021)

djack41 said:


> Only 50mp.........what a bummer!


Nope just 20mp sorry  This is also rumoured 120mp camera .Dual pixel 3 movevent pixel shift =120mp
20mp is enough least 10 year . How peoples view 20mp pictures when 95% peoples got no even 4k computer screen.
I think it could do lot more than 30fps ,but canon thinks 30fps is enough , Then its enough


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## ngrinerphoto (Apr 15, 2021)

CafferyPhoto said:


> Wasn't the EOS 3 the camera with Eye-Activated autofocus back in the 90s? Well played!!


Yep. Along with the Elan IIe. Still have them both. Great cameras.


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## Stig Nygaard (Apr 15, 2021)

koenkooi said:


> There are also some differences in the layout and size of the electronic connections, the bayonet is the same size, but there's more room inside the RF mount. This has been presented as a 'wider' mount, which is causing a lot of confusion.



As I remember RF was presented as a _wide _mount, but the first presented new Nikon Z-mount was presented as a _wider _mount. But since the announcements of Z and RF mounts wasn't very far apart in time, I think people got confused. But yes, EF and RF mount-diameter are exactly the same.


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## sanj (Apr 15, 2021)

Skux said:


> This is the R1 in all but name. It makes no sense to have the R3 as well as an R1 which would have the same large integrated vertical battery grip form factor.
> 
> There could be a number of reasons for this:
> 
> ...


"R1 is released in 2-3 years' time". We will see.


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## Chig (Apr 15, 2021)

SnowMiku said:


> This could be the replacement for the 7DII if it has the equivalent MP, APS-C pro bodies may now be a thing of the past, if an R7 dosn't come out they will just have to eventully upgrade to full-frame R5 or R3 if they want the latest performance and features.


7Dii fans like me don't want to "upgrade" to full frame we want a crop sensor RF camera similar to the R6 for higher pixel density.
The R5 cropped is only 17mp which is less than my 7Dii and a high mp full frame RF camera will be even more expensive than the R5 and will create huge files which will be a problem to handle.
A modified R6 with perhaps the 90D's 32mp sensor would be very easy to make and be perfect for Bird photography enthusiasts like myself and I would buy one for sure if it's a similar price to the R6
Bizarre how many people have an objection to any crop sensor RF as if it's spoiling things somehow and no we don't want RF-s lenses only full frame EF and RF telephoto lenses 
Canon can easily (and probably will) make a crop sensor version of the R6 and it should be a big seller.


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## TravelerNick (Apr 15, 2021)

Canon told you the R3 is worse than the 1DX. Compare that to Nikon that told you to expect the Z9 to be better than the D6.

If you believe the R3 is the R1 renamed that implies you think Canon would release a worse camera to replace the 1DX. Sorry that doesn't make any sense.

Likely the main reason both Canon and Nikon have held off so far is they KNOW the cameras in this class need to be at least a little better than the older DSLR equivalents. I doubt many of the buyers in this market give a damn about looking cool and fashionable with their cameras.


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## Chig (Apr 15, 2021)

Such a cool looking camera , nicer than any other for styling in my opinion and a stacked sensor too.
Also eye controlled auto focus which works pretty good on my old eos 30v and will no doubt be far better with current technology.
Wonder what other cool specs it'll have
Makes Sony's Alpha One look pretty dated and boring styling wise.

Now I'm dreaming about the R7 being like this with an integrated grip and a 30+mp stacked sensor which would be really exciting and I'd be prepared to pay a bit more than the R6's price for it too but realistically I'd be happy with an R6 fitted with an ordinary crop sensor.

Be a very interesting year for new cameras and be exciting to see what Canon , Sony & Nikon tempt us with


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## SnowMiku (Apr 15, 2021)

Chig said:


> 7Dii fans like me don't want to "upgrade" to full frame we want a crop sensor RF camera similar to the R6 for higher pixel density.
> The R5 cropped is only 17mp which is less than my 7Dii and a high mp full frame RF camera will be even more expensive than the R5 and will create huge files which will be a problem to handle.
> A modified R6 with perhaps the 90D's 32mp sensor would be very easy to make and be perfect for Bird photography enthusiasts like myself and I would buy one for sure if it's a similar price to the R6
> Bizarre how many people have an objection to any crop sensor RF as if it's spoiling things somehow and no we don't want RF-s lenses only full frame EF and RF telephoto lenses
> Canon can easily (and probably will) make a crop sensor version of the R6 and it should be a big seller.



I don't have any objection to a crop sensor RF body, I hope they do release a modified R6 with the 90D sensor for those 7DII users. But it does sound like the R3 is being marketed towards these users as they are saying the new RF superteles will pair well with it.
I hope you do get your R7 but time will tell.


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## GMCPhotographics (Apr 15, 2021)

I suspect that the R3 will have 20.1mp @ 30 fps and the R1 will have 30.1mp @ 30 fps. Assuming the evolution of the Dual digic X data throughput capabilities. It's usually the processor's through put that defines the camera's spec. Namely 600mb/s and 900mb/s. Those two figures define your mp / fps numbers, cut your pie how you market segment needs it. For Sports, up the fps ratio / reducing the max mp. For landscape, lower the fps and up the mp. Recently Canon have been matching their Mp to fps in their 1 series cameras. For cameras like the 5D / R5 range, there is a double Mp to FPs ratio.


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## pape2 (Apr 15, 2021)

pape2 said:


> Nope just 20mp sorry  This is also rumoured 120mp camera .Dual pixel 3 movevent pixel shift =120mp
> 20mp is enough least 10 year . How peoples view 20mp pictures when 95% peoples got no even 4k computer screen.
> I think it could do lot more than 30fps ,but canon thinks 30fps is enough , Then its enough


Ok i might be wrong . Maybe canon really making 100mp 30fps sport camera ,becouse they can.
Sport photogrpahers are screwed .Who ever wanna be sport photographer nerd can do their job with 70-200mm . No need tigh framing skills or talents anymore.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Apr 15, 2021)

TravelerNick said:


> Canon told you the R3 is worse than the 1DX. Compare that to Nikon that told you to expect the Z9 to be better than the D6.
> 
> If you believe the R3 is the R1 renamed that implies you think Canon would release a worse camera to replace the 1DX. Sorry that doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Likely the main reason both Canon and Nikon have held off so far is they KNOW the cameras in this class need to be at least a little better than the older DSLR equivalents. I doubt many of the buyers in this market give a damn about looking cool and fashionable with their cameras.


Well technically the R5 is positioned even lower than the R3 when compared to the 1DX iii BUT for my personal use case the R5 is a way better camera. I actually think the new stacked BSI sensor of the R3 will easily deliver better image quality than the 1DX iii. Probably it just won’t have the 20FPS mechanical shutter. It could be that this spec is the only thing about the 1DX iii that will actually make it a ‘better’ camera than the R3.


----------



## TravelerNick (Apr 15, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Well technically the R5 is positioned even lower than the R3 when compared to the 1DX iii BUT for my personal use case the R5 is a way better camera. I actually think the new stacked BSI sensor of the R3 will easily deliver better image quality than the 1DX iii. Probably it just won’t have the 20FPS mechanical shutter. It could be that this spec is the only thing about the 1DX iii that will actually make it a ‘better’ camera than the R3.



The things that make a 1DX are different than the things that make an R5. Resolution for the 1DX crowd only needs to be enough. They need speed. They need durability. They need battery life. 

An R5 that overheats is upsetting. A 1DX that shuts down gets tossed out of the moving helicopter. 

I understand what you're saying and it likely applies to me also but the things that allow Canon and Nikon to charge $$$£££€€€ for these cameras really do matter to those buyers.


----------



## john1970 (Apr 15, 2021)

With a stacked sensor with faster readout speed I would expect that the Canon R3 is very similar to the Sony A1 and the Nikon Z9. From the R5 with a traditional sensor we already know that Canon can move 12-bit RAW files at 20 fps from a 45 MP sensor. Canon typically uses CFExpress Type B card which have a two-times faster write speed than the Type A CFExpress cards found in other products. I would expect that the R3 can readily move 45 MP (or maybe more) at 30 fps (only 50% faster) and maybe at 14-bit RAW resolution? 16-bit RAW at lower speeds would be an added bonus for me.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Apr 15, 2021)

TravelerNick said:


> The things that make a 1DX are different than the things that make an R5. Resolution for the 1DX crowd only needs to be enough. They need speed. They need durability. They need battery life.
> 
> An R5 that overheats is upsetting. A 1DX that shuts down gets tossed out of the moving helicopter.
> 
> I understand what you're saying and it likely applies to me also but the things that allow Canon and Nikon to charge $$$£££€€€ for these cameras really do matter to those buyers.


What you’re saying is true, those qualities definitely make a 1DX iii more appealing to someone hanging out of a helicopter! Haha.

I just think Canon is trying to be respectful and cautious with people who just spent a lot of money on their 1DX iii. They can do this by saying the position of the R3 is lower than the 1DX iii and most likely it will miss out on some key specs that will give the 1DX iii the edge in SOME situations. But in reality the build quality, weather sealing, battery life and reliability will probably be so close to a 1DX iii that it won’t make a real world, practical difference at all. BUT, importantly, image quality is guaranteed to be superior....


----------



## canonmike (Apr 15, 2021)

reef58 said:


> AS a 1dx and R5 owner I don't disagree. That being said it does have some advantages over the R5


Interesting. Since you own both, can you share during which photo event, would you pick the 1Dxiii over your R5 body and why?


----------



## canonmike (Apr 15, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> Remember the "crazy" R1 specs that were leaked a while ago? I'm starting to think they aren't that crazy.
> 
> Not naming this the R1 because of the 1DX III is not a valid business reason to create a new line, so I doubt that as well. You don't hold back new technology in a highly competitive market because someone may not be happy their camera was replaced after a couple of years. They were also able to reuse much of the tech (Sensor, Processor, Software) in the R6 and R5. They have recouped their investment. The people who these cameras are designed for don't care... they don't buy them anyway. The companies that do can justify the cost by the return. An R1 will likely make that workstream more efficient which makes the cost negligible. They also don't have an ego about the number plastered on the front of the camera. They are just tools. I think the market for the R3 are professionals that buy their own gear (ie not employed by a large organization) and people like us who have enough money and passion to want a better camera but may balk at the likely $8k price tag of the R1.
> 
> As far as the A1 goes... most direct comparisons show the R5 holding its own against the A1, this one will likely crush it. I'm quite sure Canon doesn't see the A1 as a competitor for the R1. That camera likely doesn't exist. Camera bodies are developed over years. Companies also have a good idea what their competitors are up to. You can be sure they knew the A1 was coming for quite some time. The move to mirrorless is, I'm sure, a program with multiple projects each with specific deliverables and likely is scheduled out at least 5 years. Covid likely delayed some portion of the R5/R6 projects which probably held this one up as well. Expect to see it before the Summer Olympics with a US cost of just under 6k. I expect to see the R1 arriving before the Winter Olympics in 2022 at around USD 8K.


You may be right about R3 pricing but am hoping for $52-5495.00 USD


----------



## zim (Apr 15, 2021)

pape2 said:


> Ok i might be wrong . Maybe canon really making 100mp 30fps sport camera ,becouse they can.
> Sport photogrpahers are screwed .Who ever wanna be sport photographer nerd can do their job with 70-200mm . No need tigh framing skills or talents anymore.


Well it would explain why they didn't bother to make those converters fit!


----------



## scyrene (Apr 15, 2021)

Traveler said:


> As I said in another comment. There’s a lot of people who buy what they want. Not what they need. And Sony probably understood that better than Canon.
> You can see a lot of influencers being excited about the A1. It’s still a small camera but great on paper. They wouldn’t use anything like R3 or 1Dx. And other people tend to buy in brands that their favorite YouTuber uses. That’s why you can hear most young people talking about Sony rather than Canon. Maybe we don’t care about it but if canon doesn’t have enough money for R&D in ten years this may be part of it. But I can see that Canon is getting better with marketing.



Nonsense. What it sounds like is, you're confusing what _you_ want with what the market wants. Do you think Canon just randomly chooses what features to include? They don't do market research? Who sells more cameras, remind me?


----------



## Chig (Apr 15, 2021)

SnowMiku said:


> I don't have any objection to a crop sensor RF body, I hope they do release a modified R6 with the 90D sensor for those 7DII users. But it does sound like the R3 is being marketed towards these users as they are saying the new RF superteles will pair well with it.
> I hope you do get your R7 but time will tell.


I'd love to have the R3 but probably too expensive and I can't afford the superteles , maybe the R7 could be a budget version with smaller body with built-in grip and stacked crop senser - I can but dream and wait to see what magic Canon comes up with


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## reef58 (Apr 15, 2021)

sanj said:


> OP does not mention 8k. There is lots more to video specs than just resolution.


Which specs can the dicicx not handle?


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## reef58 (Apr 15, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Interesting. Since you own both, can you share during which photo event, would you pick the 1Dxiii over your R5 body and why?


When I am hiking during iffy weather I will take the 1dx3. If I am shooting wildlife in my blind I will usually take the 1dx3. That being said I find shooting video with the R5 better than the 1dx3. I don't find the quality better but the autofocus is better. I usually don't have oof footage with the r5, but with the 1dx3 there usually is some to cut. I don't really have overheating issues with the R5, but I usually shoot 8k DCI instead of raw. Battery life is rough with the R5 and video. I ended up buying a Jackery and solar panel for my photo blind.


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## degos (Apr 15, 2021)

scyrene said:


> Nonsense. What it sounds like is, you're confusing what _you_ want with what the market wants. Do you think Canon just randomly chooses what features to include? They don't do market research? Who sells more cameras, remind me?



Not random, but arbitrary based on their market segmentations and production capacity & investment.

Who knows, if they actually produced a camera based on thorough market research they might sell even more! I was ready to buy into the Canon MILC range three years ago and... still haven't seen a camera from them that is compelling enough.

Amongst my group of Canon-shooting colleagues, only one has bought an RF camera. One out of twenty is a poor ratio and is simply the result of wilfully ignoring what photographers actually want.

And look at the chorus of shooters crying out for DO lenses. Response? Silence. But here are some non-DO telephotos on which we stuck an RF adapter, be a good consumer and buy them.


----------



## AEWest (Apr 15, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I suspect that the R3 will have 20.1mp @ 30 fps and the R1 will have 30.1mp @ 30 fps. Assuming the evolution of the Dual digic X data throughput capabilities. It's usually the processor's through put that defines the camera's spec. Namely 600mb/s and 900mb/s. Those two figures define your mp / fps numbers, cut your pie how you market segment needs it. For Sports, up the fps ratio / reducing the max mp. For landscape, lower the fps and up the mp. Recently Canon have been matching their Mp to fps in their 1 series cameras. For cameras like the 5D / R5 range, there is a double Mp to FPs ratio.


I can't imagine it being only 20 mp. May as well get R6 with grip and be done with it. Sure, you won't get 30 fps, but still not much difference. At 20 mp, would it even need a stacked sensor?


----------



## Aaron D (Apr 15, 2021)

Gorgeous camera!


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 15, 2021)

degos said:


> Not random, but arbitrary based on their market segmentations and production capacity & investment.
> 
> Who knows, if they actually produced a camera based on thorough market research they might sell even more! I was ready to buy into the Canon MILC range three years ago and... still haven't seen a camera from them that is compelling enough.
> 
> ...


I'm seeing more and more people in my circle moving to the R5. The biggest impediment has been availability or cost. There are some older users who don't want to give up their OVF (without even trying an EVF) and that group won't buy any mirrorless camera. Considering that Canon is selling the R6/R5 faster than they can make them almost a year later tells me they did their research. You could buy a Z6 II at any random store they day they came out. Get ready for the threads about people complaining they can't get their hands on an R3. 

As far as the DO lenses, that chorus is coming from people like us... If the pros who buy the F4 lenses were clamoring for them you can bet they would be available. Canon listens to their pro customers. They are the main market for these lenses and they must not be asking for them. I do agree that the new 600/400 was a bit of a punt, but I suspect that they are a placeholder and the pros they consulted told them they liked their current lens (because they're fantastic) but didn't want to mess with an adapter if they went to RF.


----------



## kaihp (Apr 15, 2021)

Del Paso said:


> In most European countries, the R5 costs $5000 (no kidding).
> So, we could only dream of cheap $5000 for the R3, which, in my opinion, will be around $6500, if we're lucky...


$5800 here, nonetheless 


H. Jones said:


> I'll hazard an uneducated guess we get the official announcement in early June, have it for photogs to test at Olympics, and an official release in the beginning of August maybe.


"This is not the Olympics Year you're looking for". We may not have an Olympics Summer games this year at all, due to the 4th COVID wave in Japan 
Time will tell.


----------



## canonnews (Apr 15, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I am not surprised with the stacked sensor - Canon has been filing patents for this tech for some time. Petapixel showed one of these patents back in January.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hah. petapixel? I've discovered and talked about most of the stacked sensor patents including that one. You know .. the source of petapixel's article? 

No, that one wasn't the key though this here is the key to Canon doing stacked sensors:









Canon getting serious about stacked sensors


I found this interesting tidbit on BusinessWire about Canon today; SAN JOSE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Xperi Holding Corporation (NASDAQ: XPER) (“Xperi”) today announced Canon’s license of Invensas DBI hybrid bonding intellectual property (IP) portfolio to further enhance its image sensors...



www.canonnews.com


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## canonnews (Apr 15, 2021)

GMCPhotographics said:


> I suspect that the R3 will have 20.1mp @ 30 fps and the R1 will have 30.1mp @ 30 fps. Assuming the evolution of the Dual digic X data throughput capabilities. It's usually the processor's through put that defines the camera's spec. Namely 600mb/s and 900mb/s. Those two figures define your mp / fps numbers, cut your pie how you market segment needs it. For Sports, up the fps ratio / reducing the max mp. For landscape, lower the fps and up the mp. Recently Canon have been matching their Mp to fps in their 1 series cameras. For cameras like the 5D / R5 range, there is a double Mp to FPs ratio.


I don't think so.

Just because of the Olympic games 8K is a big thing.

so for one or both of them not to be able to do 8K seems like a weird omission. however canon will have to bring back mRAW and sRAW options I think.

I still haven't wrapped my head around what Canon could bring to the Olympics and then turn around and "make better" in 1-2 years for the R1.

Global Shutter is definitely in the table, because if Canon can now do stacked sensors, any limitation on global shutter sensors just literally flies out the window. There can be no DR penalty with a stacked global shutter sensor. It's just technically difficult, therefore, expensive. But people think that because the sensor is expensive, then the camera will cost thousands more, probably not really the case.

This is where I wish chipworks now techinsights was actually better at what they did as they work 10 years ago because it would be damned nice to see them take apart this R3 sensor and see how it ticks.

I have to write up a "what this means" kind of summary I think, but I have to look through patents now.. I'm late today.


----------



## peters (Apr 15, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> There are some older users who don't want to give up their OVF (without even trying an EVF) and that group won't buy any mirrorless camera.


While I switched to the R5, I must say: the viewfinder is realy disapointing. Compared to my 1DX the EVF in the R5 is reeeealy tiny. I also had a Panasonic S1H and the EVF is a night and day difference to the R5. Feels like twice the size, much brighter...
I think when Canon finaly implements a good and big(!) Viewfinder, this will accelerate the swich to mirrorless. I expect to see finaly a good viewfinder in the R1. The R3 once again looks like they implemented this ant-viewfinder from the R5. Though I hope I am wrong.
If the R3 offers the same features like the R5 but with the 1DX Buttonlayout, full-size-hdmi and (most important) non overheating 4k0 and 4khq (maybe 4k raw!) than this would be an instant buy for me. I would change one R5 in a heartbeat and keep the other one for travel =)


----------



## canonnews (Apr 15, 2021)

sdz said:


> I can't say I'm a seasoned and tech savvy observer of the digital imaging market, but I suspected something like this would happen. Canon R&D may be a straight line with a positive slope in the lab, but shipping products can take great leaps that do not follow step-wise from the last product cycle. I would not be surprised if the 1R is that global shutter, quad pixel beast everyone dreams on. And it will work out of the box because that seems to be how Canon rolls. Of course, I would be wholly in the dark without the excellent reporting provided by Canon New and Canon Rumors!


I am. I would have thought we would have seen BSI first, before Canon jumped all the way to stacked. I was waiting for that indicator to show that Canon was ready. You can't really do stacked sensors until you do BSI. (there is one method of using FSI sensors and stacked, but it's pretty complicated - no one does it)

This sensor is going to have a very low yield just because of the technologies that Canon has to bring to the table that they've never done before. it's not just a matter of shoving two chips together and calling it a day, BSI itself is a complicated process, and then on top of that you're going to do a stacked design, and usually on your second (and third layer) you have a much smaller design rules - something that Canon didn't have in house. Therefore, when Canon finally releases the R3, and you want it - preorder it fast.

We haven't seen any engineering proofs, or any IEEE papers, notta. Canon was clearly on FSI sensors even in their engineering papers.

But yes, quad pixel? on the table. Global shutter? on the table.

Global shutter is what Canon is gunning across the board for their video cameras and also their stills cameras. It allows canon to completely remove any mechanical hindrance to their cameras, improve their video cameras immensely, which of course reduces design, manufacturing, QA/QC, and also maintenance and warranty support.


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 15, 2021)

canonnews said:


> But yes, quad pixel? on the table. Global shutter? on the table.
> 
> Global shutter is what Canon is gunning across the board for their video cameras and also their stills cameras. It allows canon to completely remove any mechanical hindrance to their cameras, improve their video cameras immensely, which of course reduces design, manufacturing, QA/QC, and also maintenance and warranty support.


I 100% expect Canon to talk about "infinite shutter life" when the R1 gets announced with a global shutter some day. It's a big selling point that the camera would have absolutely 0 moving parts and (basically) just can't break on its own.


----------



## djack41 (Apr 15, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Good grief, this doesn't answer many of my own questions!
> 
> "This camera will usher in a new category to the EOS R system, positioned squarely between the EOS R5 and EOS-1D X Mark III cameras. "
> 
> ...


Maybe you should wait for the R1 ll. I'm sure it will be much more advanced than the R1.


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 15, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> I think the market for the R3 are professionals that buy their own gear (ie not employed by a large organization) and people like us who have enough money and passion to want a better camera but may balk at the likely $8k price tag of the R1.



This is where I'm at at the moment. For all my paid freelance work, I use my own gear. 

Back when I was freelancing full-time, I was more than happy to get the $6500 1DX mark II shortly after release to make the move up from the 5D mark III to a 1-series camera for my sports/breaking news work, and got plenty return on that investment. But now that I have a full-time video job with my freelance work on the side, it's a little more tricky to justify $7000-8500 on one camera for my part-time freelance work. 

That said, I do want to fully move my system to the RF mount, and have been planning on selling some of my EF line-up to move my 1D over to the RF mount when the time comes. I have some of my EF gear lined up to sell for around $6500, having expected I'd probably have to drop an extra $1000 out of pocket for a $7500 R1. If Canon releases the R3 for $5500, it will make far more business sense for me to get the R3 and use then use the extra $2000 to pick up the RF 24-70mm. 

At the end of the day, I think something like the R3 is an excellent way to help mid-level pros transition to the RF mount with extra money to spend on lenses, if it does come in under the 1DX3's price.


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 15, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Interesting. Since you own both, can you share during which photo event, would you pick the 1Dxiii over your R5 body and why?


I'm not who you're replying to, but for me I use my 1DX mark II as my wide-angle body with my EF 24-70L II, with my R5 on the RF 70-200. I don't tend to crop my wide-angle news photographs much, so I don't mind the lower resolution on it. The newspapers I work with all downscale their final images to 2000 pixels on the long end, which is only 2 megapixels anyway.

I also have been in a few situations for breaking news during an absolute downpour where I've only grabbed the 1DX mark II and ran into the rain, since I'm not very worried about a 1D camera in the rain. The R5 has never given me problems in the rain, but it's still not a 1D and in certain situations I'd rather not risk it. I have high-end weather covers, but sometimes news happens too fast to put those on.

Once or twice I've also used my 1DX2 as my primary camera on huge all-day cross-country sporting events where I know I won't need to crop, and would rather have 8000 20-megapixel raw files than deal with 8000 45-megapixel raw files. But I've upgraded my laptop and doubled all of my storage drives to make up for the doubled filesize, so it's less of a problem now.


----------



## Atlasman (Apr 15, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Well, that's why I wrote it. Most people think opposite, but that doesn't make much sense to me.
> 
> First of all, this is following very close to the release of the 1DXIII, and it doesn't sound like it is meant to replace that.
> 
> ...


I‘m thinking the same thing: a stacked variant of the R5.


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 15, 2021)

Atlasman said:


> I‘m thinking the same thing: a stacked variant of the R5.



I do think, though, that Canon might have just made the new sensor 50 megapixels just to add a bump while developing the tech more, since it is a different sensor. I know it will have incredible video, but it seemed to me like the R5's sensor was designed around having full frame 8K raw, whereas Canon barely mentioned video once in this development announcement. If I'm not mistaken, 50 megapixels on the A1 left that camera with a 1.13x crop other than downsampled 8K. Not being 100% full-frame wouldn't be a show-stopper for the R3, whereas any crop would have defeated the R5's marketing as a full-frame 8K 30 fps raw full-AF camera.


----------



## Fletchahh (Apr 15, 2021)

Chig said:


> I'd love to have the R3 but probably too expensive and I can't afford the superteles , maybe the R7 could be a budget version with smaller body with built-in grip and stacked crop senser - I can but dream and wait to see what magic Canon comes up with



I could take or leave the integrated grip, but I hope that the R7 is released, or at least announced this year. I don't know the technical hurldes or added cost associated, but maybe they could add quad pixel autofocus if it comes out after or around the same time as the R1.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 15, 2021)

Chig said:


> The R5 cropped is only 17mp which is less than my 7Dii and a high mp full frame RF camera will be even more expensive than the R5 and will create huge files which will be a problem to handle.
> A modified R6 with perhaps the 90D's 32mp sensor would be very easy to make and be perfect for Bird photography enthusiasts like myself and I would buy one for sure if it's a similar price to the R6
> Bizarre how many people have an objection to any crop sensor RF as if it's spoiling things somehow and no we don't want RF-s lenses only full frame EF and RF telephoto lenses
> Canon can easily (and probably will) make a crop sensor version of the R6 and it should be a big seller.



Actually when you run the R5 in cropped mode, it reduces the file sizes accordingly.

Though that doesn't negate your point about the expense of the camera!

It might be hard for some people to gain sympathy for that complaint if they own some of those $>10K primes, however!

On a not entirely unrelated topic, I've spotted what I believe to be an eagle's nest by the highway I commute on, so I might just set up tripod and M6-II and the 100-400 L II in a nearby turnout someday to see what comes of that--it'd be my first attempt at birding. Crop sensor camera and a full frame tele.


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 15, 2021)

Fletchahh said:


> I could take or leave the integrated grip, but I hope that the R7 is released, or at least announced this year. I don't know the technical hurldes or added cost associated, but maybe they could add quad pixel autofocus if it comes out after or around the same time as the R1.



The APS-C EOS 70D was the camera that introduced Dual-Pixel AF, followed shortly after by the 7D Mark II. I could totally see Canon introduce Quad-Pixel AF on the R7.

Although I'd love the R7 to be a crop version of whatever crazy global-shutter quad pixel sensor Canon might have for the R1, I think it's more likely to be something like a quad-pixel stacked sensor. Clearly with the R3 Canon believes the stacked-sensor design is going to be great for sports, and I can't imagine any global shutter will be cheap, even in crop. I'm more inclined to believe a global shutter will be reserved for the top of the line for the near future, and that 3-4 years from now the R5 Mark II will still be a stacked-sensor QPAF design vs global shutter.


----------



## canonnews (Apr 15, 2021)

Chig said:


> 7Dii fans like me don't want to "upgrade" to full frame we want a crop sensor RF camera similar to the R6 for higher pixel density.
> The R5 cropped is only 17mp which is less than my 7Dii and a high mp full frame RF camera will be even more expensive than the R5 and will create huge files which will be a problem to handle.
> A modified R6 with perhaps the 90D's 32mp sensor would be very easy to make and be perfect for Bird photography enthusiasts like myself and I would buy one for sure if it's a similar price to the R6
> Bizarre how many people have an objection to any crop sensor RF as if it's spoiling things somehow and no we don't want RF-s lenses only full frame EF and RF telephoto lenses
> Canon can easily (and probably will) make a crop sensor version of the R6 and it should be a big seller.


I don't think many people have a problem with a R birder camera. I think people just don't think that Canon is going to make an APS-C camera outside of that, so if you buy it.. good .. buy 2 or 3 because it may never get a Mark II.

unfortunately it's a pretty low volume camera, and is going to be considerably more expensive than you think, because without any RF-S lenses, it's ONLY for birders and telephoto starved people.

The 7D and the 90D series were never that, so, no, it will never be a big seller.


----------



## canonnews (Apr 15, 2021)

Stig Nygaard said:


> Well, that's why I wrote it. Most people think opposite, but that doesn't make much sense to me.
> 
> First of all, this is following very close to the release of the 1DXIII, and it doesn't sound like it is meant to replace that.
> 
> ...


that's a little impossible.
the reason you stack is that you split the sensor in half essentially. the top substrate is the photodiodes, the second substrate is the electronic guts.
the R5 has all that on one substrate, it's design is inherently much different than a stacked sensor. a stacked sensor because you can use different design rules on the bottom substrate is usually packed more denser with electronics, and also allows for more electronics to be included, then you ever could on a single substrate.

here's a cross section of a stacked sensor from one of Canon's patents.. as you can see it's a pretty complex beast.


----------



## Fletchahh (Apr 15, 2021)

canonnews said:


> I don't think many people have a problem with a R birder camera. I think people just don't think that Canon is going to make an APS-C camera outside of that, so if you buy it.. good .. buy 2 or 3 because it may never get a Mark II.
> 
> unfortunately it's a pretty low volume camera, and is going to be considerably more expensive than you think, because without any RF-S lenses, it's ONLY for birders and telephoto starved people.
> 
> The 7D and the 90D series were never that, so, no, it will never be a big seller.


I don't expect an R7 to cost as low as the 7D2 (even adjusting for inflation), but unless it's something like $3k I'll preorder it. And even then.... who knows.

I'll be happy to continue solely using my EF lenses for a while, the only RF lens that would tempt me would be a lens that compete with either Sony's 200-600mm or Nikon's 500mm f5.6.

Also, for QPAF on the R7 I think it also depends on how close to the R3 it's released. If they're both released at a similar time and the R7 has QPAF, then why wouldn't have the speedy and expensive R3 got it as well?


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 15, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Gordon Laing, in his video reveal of the R3's announcement, wondered aloud, "I wonder if there's some kind of physical spec limiting all three manufacturers to state 30 fps?"
> 
> As it happens, that spec looks like it's the read/write speed of CF Express cards...which are pretty much maxed out by shooting raw 30 FPS at 45 megapixels, depending on the exact file size.
> 
> It's such a small sidenote in the video, and I doubt he knows more than we do, but I suddenly really do believe that this camera is 45-ish megapixels. If Canon went for 24 megapixels, why not blow up the FPS even higher as a statement if CF express can handle 60 FPS at 24 megapixels?


That doesn’t really make sense. The fps is not limited to the card write speed but the buffer capabilities, put in a bigger buffer and it will, well, buffer.

If Canon are capable of 40fps, or whatever higher number than 30, they might well be saving that for the R1 if there is one. Canon are saying the R3 is between the R5 and the 1DX III, that implies they will make an ‘R1’. That R1 will have higher fps than the R3.


----------



## vladk (Apr 15, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> That doesn’t really make sense. The fps is not limited to the card write speed but the buffer capabilities, put in a bigger buffer and it will, well, buffer.


Or use fast enough card with fast interface and you do not need a buffer.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 15, 2021)

Skux said:


> They know they can't compete with Sony's A1 on price/features


I know you are just throwing things out there but R5 with 2 CFX cards and a heatsink or active cooling would mop the floor with A1.
Canon could easily beat A1 at that price if they wanted to.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 15, 2021)

vladk said:


> Or use fast enough card with fast interface and you do not need a buffer.


That’s not the point, the speculation was that 30fps at approximately 45mp was a hard write speed limit for CFExpress cards, I was just pointing out that even if it was, it doesn’t limit the camera fps because you have a buffer.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 15, 2021)

TravelerNick said:


> I doubt many of the buyers in this market give a damn about looking cool and fashionable with their cameras.


I do think that is an advantage that Sony has.
Z9 and R3 look professional.
A1 looks cool.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 15, 2021)

scyrene said:


> Do you think Canon just randomly chooses what features to include? They don't do market research?


Traveler was talking about marketing, not market research.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 15, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> The APS-C EOS 70D was the camera that introduced Dual-Pixel AF, followed shortly after by the 7D Mark II. I could totally see Canon introduce Quad-Pixel AF on the R7.


Also, RED Komodo is a Super 35 20 MP global shutter and Canon also has Super 35 global shutters in production.
It would not shock me to see a global shutter first appear on an APS-C sensor camera.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 15, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I do think that is an advantage that Sony has.
> Z9 and R3 look professional.
> A1 looks cool.


If Sony made an A1 in green, to match my eyes, I'd buy one.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Apr 15, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> I 100% expect Canon to talk about "infinite shutter life" when the R1 gets announced with a global shutter some day. It's a big selling point that the camera would have absolutely 0 moving parts and (basically) just can't break on its own.


It is almost certain to have IBIS so they would have to use at least one or two moving parts for
That unfortunately


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 15, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> It is almost certain to have IBIS so they would have to use at least one or two moving parts for
> That unfortunately


True, though it is entirely possible they might leave IBIS out of the R1 simply for durability, and let the R3 be an option for those who want it. It's not unheard of, considering the C70 avoided IBIS. That said, I think a lot of people will be more excited about infinite shutterlife over the possibility of IBIS failures.

Under ideal conditions you could very well see a camera with several dozen million images taken on it and no failures, whereas I've had the rare unfortune of having my 1DX shutter replaced at 400,000 before.


----------



## scyrene (Apr 15, 2021)

degos said:


> Not random, but arbitrary based on their market segmentations and production capacity & investment.
> 
> Who knows,* if they actually produced a camera based on thorough market research* they might sell even more! I was ready to buy into the Canon MILC range three years ago and... still haven't seen a camera from them that is compelling enough.
> 
> ...



Are you honestly claiming they don't do thorough market research? Really??

The rest is just anecdote. One out of twenty of the people you know is meaningless.

The chorus of shooters crying out for DO? A few vocal people on forums, you mean? Funny how you castigate Canon for inadequate research then substitute in something far inferior. There must be a reason why DO hasn't taken off the way some expected or wanted, or perhaps it will when new supertele designs come out - the 600 and 800 f/11 lenses use it, I believe?


----------



## navastronia (Apr 15, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> True, though it is entirely possible they might leave IBIS out of the R1 simply for durability, and let the R3 be an option for those who want it. It's not unheard of, considering the C70 avoided IBIS. That said, I think a lot of people will be more excited about infinite shutterlife over the possibility of IBIS failures.
> 
> Under ideal conditions you could very well see a camera with several dozen million images taken on it and no failures, whereas I've had the rare unfortune of having my 1DX shutter replaced at 400,000 before.



I wouldn't be surprised if there's no IBIS in the R3 _nor_ the R1, since Canon could justify dis-including it from both, due to durability. I hope the opposite happens, of course. Global shutter _and_ IBIS in an eventual R1 would be glorious.


----------



## scyrene (Apr 15, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Traveler was talking about marketing, not market research.



As far as I can tell, they were saying people want smaller cameras, and none of Canon's current mirrorless (FF?) lineup is small enough. My point is, that person is projecting their personal desire onto "people", and that Canon has done plenty research to determine what the market really wants.


----------



## Ph0t0 (Apr 15, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> That doesn’t really make sense. The fps is not limited to the card write speed but the buffer capabilities, put in a bigger buffer and it will, well, buffer.
> 
> If Canon are capable of 40fps, or whatever higher number than 30, they might well be saving that for the R1 if there is one. Canon are saying the R3 is between the R5 and the 1DX III, that implies they will make an ‘R1’. That R1 will have higher fps than the R3.


I agree. I think the main reason they stated that R3 is between R5 and 1DX III is to let photographers know that they have more in store, that the R camera lineup is still not complete and that they have the technology that will push the mirorless replacement for the 1DX III above R3. Be it with more fps, global shutter, better IQ, more MP, AF, something else or with all of the above

Besides if they stick with the larger form of the pro bodies, then they have more room for better batterries, heat sinks, processors.... Everything that helps with faster processing.


----------



## deleteme (Apr 15, 2021)

Perfect.
A camera rumor with no information whatsoever except the name.
An opportunity to get lathered up no end about stuff we can fight about for months.

Whoopeee!


----------



## AEWest (Apr 15, 2021)

Normalnorm said:


> Perfect.
> A camera rumor with no information whatsoever except the name.
> An opportunity to get lathered up no end about stuff we can fight about for months.
> 
> Whoopeee!


That's what gives this forum it's soul!


----------



## gatabo (Apr 15, 2021)

R1 and R3 will be officially announced together probably in July, once the 3 new lenses and the new file transfer app will be available.

I said in a different forum (DPR) that the R6 was announced together with the R5, but all the development announcements were only about the R5, I suppose Canon will play a similar trick again, this time speaking of the development of the "lower" model R3, still coming with the official announcement with both models together, the EOS R3 and the EOS R1.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 15, 2021)

scyrene said:


> As far as I can tell, they were saying people want smaller cameras, and none of Canon's current mirrorless (FF?) lineup is small enough. My point is, that person is projecting their personal desire onto "people", and that Canon has done plenty research to determine what the market really wants.



Canon has non-FF mirrorless cameras that ought to be small enough for anyone, i.e., the M series. (Just to answer the question implicitly asked by you writing "(FF?)")


----------



## marathonman (Apr 15, 2021)

navastronia said:


> The R3 is going to be the best video camera Canon has released outside one of their cinema lines. You can quote me.


I don't quote anybody. Ever.


----------



## padam (Apr 16, 2021)

navastronia said:


> The R3 is going to be the best video camera Canon has released outside one of their cinema lines. You can quote me.


Canon is very good at segmenting its models and it looks like the R5 C is also coming (it is debatable whether that is part of the cinema line as it will likely to stick to the usual codecs and operation of stills cameras) and with this new model, they are not aiming to surpass that.
The first two Sony models with stacked sensors were also heavily compromised for video, but they weren't quite this expensive either.

Maybe the reason why they don't talk about video yet is there is no headline feature like 8K.
So, if they say it is slotted under the 1DX III and also priced accordingly (like 5500$), then it's pretty likely that it won't quite have the same video features, like 60p RAW video capability, but it will be quite capable.
It may not even have a swivel screen, if their aim is maximum durability and they might try to "compensate" for that with a full-sized HDMI port.
The translation from the Japanese press release says:
"The R3 aims to be a camera that meets the needs of professionals and high amateur users who create full-scale works for both still image shooting sports and also video shooting."


----------



## Fletchahh (Apr 16, 2021)

How about this:


navastronia said:


> R3 best video outside cinema. can quote.


Is that enough context?


----------



## navastronia (Apr 16, 2021)

padam said:


> Canon is very good at segmenting its models and it looks like the R5 C is also coming and they are not aiming this model to surpass that.
> The first two Sony models with stacked sensors were also heavily compromised for video, but they weren't quite this expensive either.
> 
> Maybe the reason why they don't talk about video yet is there is no headline feature like 8K.
> ...



I would consider the R5C, should such a camera debut, part of one of the "cinema lines" I mentioned in my post. The C stands for cinema, just as it does in the C200, etc.

But to compare an R5C and the R3 anyway, the one thing we can say already is that with its stacked BSI sensor, the R3 should have fewer rolling shutter issues than anything that uses an R5 sensor, be it an R5, R5C, or otherwise. Not that rolling shutter is a major problem with the original R5, anyway, at least for video applications.


----------



## padam (Apr 16, 2021)

navastronia said:


> I would consider the R5C, should such a camera debut, part of one of the "cinema lines" I mentioned in my post. The C stands for cinema, just as it does in the C200, etc.
> 
> But to compare an R5C and the R3 anyway, the one thing we can say already is that with its stacked BSI sensor, the R3 should have fewer rolling shutter issues than anything that uses an R5 sensor, be it an R5, R5C, or otherwise. Not that rolling shutter is a major problem with the original R5, anyway, at least for video applications.


That is debatable based on the Sony A9/A1 cameras, their rolling shutter performance in video mode is pretty much the same as other newer cameras without stacked sensors (pretty much identical results to the R5), and the dynamic range was also compromised in the A9 series.


----------



## navastronia (Apr 16, 2021)

padam said:


> That is debatable based on the Sony A9/A1 cameras, their rolling shutter performance in video mode is pretty much the same as other newer cameras without stacked sensors (pretty much identical results to the R5), and the dynamic range was also compromised in the A9 series.


A quick Google search tells me this isn't true, at least as far as the Sony bodies go.
EDIT: while these are photos, and we're talking about video performance, video performance for rolling shutter depends on the speed of sensor readout of the electronic shutter, which is the same thing that impacts photo performance, with an electronic shutter.






Rolling shutter comparison of A7r4, A7s3 and A1: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review


Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.




www.dpreview.com


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## padam (Apr 16, 2021)

navastronia said:


> A quick Google search tells me this isn't true, at least as far as the Sony bodies go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe Google some more and stick to video tests, not stills 

If there is any benefit to stacked sensors for video, they are not utilised and the R3 is still sticking to a Digic X processor, so nothing new on that front.


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## navastronia (Apr 16, 2021)

padam said:


> Maybe Google some more and stick to video tests, not stills
> 
> If there is any benefit to stacked sensors for video, they are not utilised and the R3 is still sticking to a Digic X processor, so nothing new on that front.



See my edit!


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## padam (Apr 16, 2021)

navastronia said:


> See my edit!


It's still BS, here are the A1 measurements.

*8K up to 30P: *Over-sampled from 8640 x 4860 full width readout. 17ms rolling shutter. 1/57s readout speed.

*FF 4K up to 60P:* 2 x 2 pixel-binned from full width to 4320 x 2430, then over-sampled to 3840 x 2160. 9ms rolling shutter. 1/114s readout speed.

*4K 120P:* 2 x 2 pixel-binned from 7680 x 4320 window (1.12x crop) to 3840 x 2160. 8ms rolling shutter. 1/124s readout speed.

*S35 crop 4K up to 60P:* Over-sampled from 5760 x 3240 window (1.5x crop) to 3840 x 2160. 11ms rolling shutter. 1/90s readout speed.


The rolling shutter on the R5 is basically the same in these modes, except it has 4K HQ which is of course identical to 8K (the A1 has 4K HQ via HDMI).

So no, so far there hasn't been a camera where the stacked sensor actually works similarly in video mode, which implies that for video, going towards offering a global shutter (like the Komodo) may be more beneficial.


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## Mr Majestyk (Apr 16, 2021)

The mythical EOS 3D has finally been born. This has been something I never thought I'd see. I was on the fence about the R5, but knowing Canon is finally going to use stacked sensor and has resurrected eye controlled AF makes this a certain purchase. I will start a a fire sale of some old EF glass and get ready for the new RF 500 f/4 and possibly 300 f/2.8 which may come out as a zoom first.


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## navastronia (Apr 16, 2021)

padam said:


> It's still BS, here are the A1 measurements.
> 
> *8K up to 30P: *Over-sampled from 8640 x 4860 full width readout. 17ms rolling shutter. 1/57s readout speed.
> 
> ...



Without posting R5 numbers to go along with these, no one can compare rolling shutter performance in the two cameras. Saying "rolling shutter on the R5 is basically the same" isn't sufficient.


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## 01Spino94 (Apr 16, 2021)

navastronia said:


> Fascinating move. I think they're using the R3 to playtest the technology that will make its way into the R1. If the eye-controlled autofocus is poorly received, they may drop it from consideration for the R1, just like they dropped the touch bar from the Canon bodies after the R, when everyone hated it.


I think that's it exactly, just like the EOS-3 was for tech featured in the 1V and first 1D camera, and when you look even further back the way the A-1 and T-90 were also these "tweener" tech testbeds.


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## Traveler (Apr 16, 2021)

scyrene said:


> Nonsense. What it sounds like is, you're confusing what _you_ want with what the market wants. Do you think Canon just randomly chooses what features to include? They don't do market research? Who sells more cameras, remind me?


I personally don't care about this kind of cameras anyway, the R is more than enough for me. Just talking about that from a marketing perspective and what Canon could do better. A lot of people buy brands that their favourite influencers buy (I don't say it's good but it is as it is – same like some people buy cars from brands that won F1 championship). So just saying. If Canon creates a small flagship camera for those influencers it would bring them a lot of sales of RP, R, R6 etc as well. 
I agree with you that Canon know what to deliver to their current professional photographers thoug.


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## SonicStudios (Apr 16, 2021)

Are these chapters from Pulp Fiction Photography ... and the plot thickens ... R5, followed by R6, then R3 followed by R1, then R2 followed by ...


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## Chig (Apr 16, 2021)

Fletchahh said:


> I don't expect an R7 to cost as low as the 7D2 (even adjusting for inflation), but unless it's something like $3k I'll preorder it. And even then.... who knows.
> 
> I'll be happy to continue solely using my EF lenses for a while, the only RF lens that would tempt me would be a lens that compete with either Sony's 200-600mm or Nikon's 500mm f5.6.
> 
> Also, for QPAF on the R7 I think it also depends on how close to the R3 it's released. If they're both released at a similar time and the R7 has QPAF, then why wouldn't have the speedy and expensive R3 got it as well?


I agree and I think it will be a big seller , Canon have sold a lot of 7Dmark 2s and the number of people who shoot birds and other wildlife and sports is substantial and far more R7s will be sold than R3s or R1s as keen amateurs far out number the relatively small group of professionals that buy these flagships.


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## StandardLumen (Apr 16, 2021)

Someone earlier posted a size comparison between the R3 and the 1DX iii in which the R3 looked noticeably smaller, but trying to line up the mount between the R3 and R5, the R3 is considerably larger and seems like it would be just as big as the 1DX


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## Proscribo (Apr 16, 2021)

StandardLumen said:


> Someone earlier posted a size comparison between the R3 and the 1DX iii in which the R3 looked noticeably smaller, but trying to line up the mount between the R3 and R5, the R3 is considerably larger and seems like it would be just as big as the 1DX
> View attachment 196995


I think you're underestimating the size of the 1DX. It is absolutely ridiculously huge. It is no wonder those who want small (not just smaller) are amazed by A9/A1, when the other option is this.


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## Joules (Apr 16, 2021)

Normalnorm said:


> Perfect.
> A camera rumor with no information whatsoever except the name.
> An opportunity to get lathered up no end about stuff we can fight about for months.
> 
> Whoopeee!


I guess you didn't read the OP?

This is not a rumor, but an official development announcement.

We also got an image, and a good number of specs: 30 FPS, improved AF capable of detecting more subjects, weather resistance on par with the 1DX III, eye controlled AF, back side illuminated stacked shutter with confirmed improvements in rolling shutter performance.

Really, all that's missing are the sensor resolution, the video options and whether or not there is a tilty-flippy screen. Weight is secondary for a body of this type but can be assumed to be a good deal more than an R5 and good deal less than a 1DX III.


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## Chig (Apr 16, 2021)

gatabo said:


> R1 and R3 will be officially announced together probably in July, once the 3 new lenses and the new file transfer app will be available.
> 
> I said in a different forum (DPR) that the R6 was announced together with the R5, but all the development announcements were only about the R5, I suppose Canon will play a similar trick again, this time speaking of the development of the "lower" model R3, still coming with the official announcement with both models together, the EOS R3 and the EOS R1.


Perhaps it'll be the R3 and R7 announced together and the R7 may have similar body with integrated vertical grip as it's target market is sports and wildlife and maybe a stacked CMOS crop sensor.
I think Canon will hold off on the R1 for a while so it can get feedback from the R3 so that the R1 is ultra reliable and perfect for the pros that love 1DXs and more Great White RF lenses come out including the RF800L 5.6 and RF300L f2.8 both using Freznel DO elements and builtin T.Cs
I think the R1 will have basically the same body as the R3 but new twin digital processors using the latest ARMv9 chip protocols


----------



## john1970 (Apr 16, 2021)

Do people think that Canon will have the option to link exposure to the AF point in the R3 or do we think that they will reserve that feature for only a R1 body? I ask because the R3 does have a professional grade build and am trying to ascertain if Canon will also include this desired feature.


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## reef58 (Apr 16, 2021)

Proscribo said:


> I think you're underestimating the size of the 1DX. It is absolutely ridiculously huge. It is no wonder those who want small (not just smaller) are amazed by A9/A1, when the other option is this.
> View attachment 196997


It is about the same size as a 5d series with a grip. It is not the size of a basketball or something.


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## tomislavmoze (Apr 16, 2021)

Traveler said:


> Is it just me or more and more people would like to buy a flagship camera if it's not this huge body? Everyone seems to like the A1 for it's smaller size so Canon could make one camera like this. At least for "marketing" purposes.


I totally agree with you, I owned 1dx mk1 and all the 5d series and 6d series cameras including now r6 and r5 which are closer to 6d regarding size. I work on a lot of sport related project, since I’m one of the official Red Bull photographers and my cameras went trough basically all the possible conditions. Heavy rain, sand, snow, sea, high temperatures and Amazon humidity...And never did I have a problem with the 5d series regarding weather resistance, and when you put the grip the size is basically the same as the 1dx series with all the vertical functions. Also the only time I had a problem with a camera regarding water damage it was 1dx, the 5dmk3 went through the same amount of rain and survived without any damage while on the 1dx I had to replace the whole back panel. 
From my use case I can say that I trust the 5d or r5 series equally regarding resistance to outside damage.
So I don’t believe that they could not made a body with a optional grip and the same level of build quality as 1dx series. And I never understood the people that would not like to have the option of choosing to have a grip attached or not attached especially cause at least regarding the 5d if you attach the grip ergonomically there is no difference compared to 1d series. To me personally r3 would be more interesting as a camera if it had a body without a integrated grip. With the r5 or r6 I can just decide depending on the project will I put the grip cause of the long lenses, or remove it cause I need to hike 25 km to the location and think about every gram of my equipment. 
And Sony actually showed that the size does not have to be a limitation for the a amount of technology you an fit into a camera.


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## padam (Apr 16, 2021)

tomislavmoze said:


> So I don’t believe that they could not made a body with a optional grip and the same level of build quality as 1dx series. And I never understood the people that would not like to have the option of choosing to have a grip attached or not attached especially cause at least regarding the 5d if you attach the grip ergonomically there is no difference compared to 1d series. To me personally r3 would be more interesting as a camera if it had a body without a integrated grip. With the r5 or r6 I can just decide depending on the project will I put the grip cause of the long lenses, or remove it cause I need to hike 25 km to the location and think about every gram of my equipment.
> And Sony actually showed that the size does not have to be a limitation for the a amount of technology you an fit into a camera.


The R5 and R6 using the LP-E6NH have some frame rate limitations tied to the battery capacity, which wouldn't be there with the LP-E19. Maybe the thermal design is also different in general on the 1DX III (not just the heatsink) as it has no overheating issues, so different components can be spaced out more (some of the heat is generated at the memory card and battery, not just the sensor and processor).

Maybe the better quality battery is able to power all the extra electronics needed for the Eye-controlled focus and improved EVF live feed as well.
And they might have used the extra space for adding other useful features, we'll see.

Yes, I agree that a smaller body with a stacked sensor would really make use of that silent operation for things like street shooting, but using a bigger body with a different battery with higher voltage might provide other operational benefits in addition to the vertical grip and increased battery life.


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## tomislavmoze (Apr 16, 2021)

padam said:


> The R5 and R6 using the LP-E6NH have some frame rate limitations tied to the battery capacity, which wouldn't be there with the LP-E19. Maybe the thermal design is also different in general on the 1DX III (not just the heatsink) as it has no overheating issues, so different components can be spaced out more (some of the heat is generated at the memory card and battery, not just the sensor and processor).
> 
> Maybe the better quality battery is able to power all the extra electronics needed for the Eye-controlled focus and improved EVF live feed as well.
> And they might have used the extra space for adding other useful features, we'll see.
> ...


I agree, but it would ne nice to have r3 with an optional grip, and then r1 with build in.
There are definitely some limitations regarding battery performance and shutter speed, but It is mostly using the mechanical shutter. 
For the electronical one I did not have problems regarding that.
The smaller body is not only good for street photography but for a lot of professional use case scenarios where you have to carry a lot of equipment for a long period of time. For me for example when I did Red Bull X fighters it was up to 14 hours per day with small of my gear And in that case u want to have the lightest gear possible with loosing as less performance possible. A lot of sport photographers also mount their cameras for a remote usage and in that case also a smaller body is an advantage. 
Anyway I agree with you regarding reasons why integrated grip, but then again Sony managed to put a lot of amazing technology into a smaller body than the r5 without compromising a lot of things you mentioned.


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## padam (Apr 16, 2021)

tomislavmoze said:


> I agree, but it would ne nice to have r3 with an optional grip, and then r1 with build in.
> There are definitely some limitations regarding battery performance and shutter speed, but It is mostly using the mechanical shutter.
> For the electronical one I did not have problems regarding that.
> The smaller body is not only good for street photography but for a lot of professional use case scenarios where you have to carry a lot of equipment for a long period of time. For me for example when I did Red Bull X fighters it was up to 14 hours per day with small of my gear And in that case u want to have the lightest gear possible with loosing as less performance possible. A lot of sport photographers also mount their cameras for a remote usage and in that case also a smaller body is an advantage.
> Anyway I agree with you regarding reasons why integrated grip, but then again Sony managed to put a lot of amazing technology into a smaller body than the r5 without compromising a lot of things you mentioned.


Sony's IBIS is nowhere near as powerful and it has no eye-controlled focus like the R3
And in the A7SIII people complained that even though there is that nice 9.44 million dot EVF with high magnification, the full resolution is only there is playback mode, so it is kind of wasted.
With the A1 it is a bit better utilised but it is still very much a compromise: either high resolution or high refresh rate, or in case of the highest 240fps mode, it also decreases the magnification as well and so far it hasn't been confirmed if the highest resolution is as good as the playback mode.

So yes, there are plenty of things to continuously power in the R3, so even with the same battery, it probably won't have anywhere near 1DX III levels of battery life, but probably better reliability and less usability limitations thanks to the better battery and thermal design.


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## randym77 (Apr 16, 2021)

I have had problems with the 5D series weatherproofing. Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I stick with 1Dx if I'm expecting heavy rain. Even with a rain cover, I had a 5D get its shutter stuck. (It was also very windy, so some water probably got under the rain cover.) The camera was okay after I let it dry for a couple of days, but I missed some great shots.

I don't have any Canon mirrorless cameras yet, but I'm considering it. I have a Sony A9 and some lenses for it. I like the silent shutter, but otherwise I much prefer Canon. 

It does look like mirrorless is the future. Maybe I should sell my EF lenses now, before they lose all their value. ;-)


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## canonnews (Apr 16, 2021)

Fletchahh said:


> I don't expect an R7 to cost as low as the 7D2 (even adjusting for inflation), but unless it's something like $3k I'll preorder it. And even then.... who knows.
> 
> I'll be happy to continue solely using my EF lenses for a while, the only RF lens that would tempt me would be a lens that compete with either Sony's 200-600mm or Nikon's 500mm f5.6.
> 
> Also, for QPAF on the R7 I think it also depends on how close to the R3 it's released. If they're both released at a similar time and the R7 has QPAF, then why wouldn't have the speedy and expensive R3 got it as well?


I wouldn't count on it if it's low volume and Canon is no longer interested in APS-C why would they create a new sensor over the "good enough" 32MP sensor they already have.

If y'all are truly doing nothing other than chasing pixel density, then most likely the R5s or whatever it will be called if it's 100MP and hits around 8-10fps would most likely be the camera for you. Because I doubt Canon does anything more on the APS-C front.

Also north of $2500 wouldn't surprise me. IMO, they'll make it a baby 1 series, and charge you for it. they don't want to get into the APS-C game. APS-C from all the rumors we're seeing is dead to Canon.

Heck, it's essentially dead to Nikon too. Sony? hard to say, I think they update things just to shut people up by now.


----------



## canonmike (Apr 16, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> I'm not who you're replying to, but for me I use my 1DX mark II as my wide-angle body with my EF 24-70L II, with my R5 on the RF 70-200. I don't tend to crop my wide-angle news photographs much, so I don't mind the lower resolution on it. The newspapers I work with all downscale their final images to 2000 pixels on the long end, which is only 2 megapixels anyway.
> 
> I also have been in a few situations for breaking news during an absolute downpour where I've only grabbed the 1DX mark II and ran into the rain, since I'm not very worried about a 1D camera in the rain. The R5 has never given me problems in the rain, but it's still not a 1D and in certain situations I'd rather not risk it. I have high-end weather covers, but sometimes news happens too fast to put those on.
> 
> Once or twice I've also used my 1DX2 as my primary camera on huge all-day cross-country sporting events where I know I won't need to crop, and would rather have 8000 20-megapixel raw files than deal with 8000 45-megapixel raw files. But I've upgraded my laptop and doubled all of my storage drives to make up for the doubled filesize, so it's less of a problem now.


I liked your FYI, even if my question wasn't directed at you and am sure that more than a few fellow CR members will profit from your take. Real world use with the best assurance of reliability during inclement weather, can often be the driving force on what gear one uses. I, also enjoyed your no need to crop wide angle shots argument, mitigating the need for higher res capability.


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## Charlie_B (Apr 16, 2021)

john1970 said:


> Do people think that Canon will have the option to link exposure to the AF point in the R3 or do we think that they will reserve that feature for only a R1 body? I ask because the R3 does have a professional grade build and am trying to ascertain if Canon will also include this desired feature.


Isn't this on the R5 ? If you move single focus point to different areas the iso when set to auto changes depending on the focus point position, it does on my R5


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## canonmike (Apr 16, 2021)

gatabo said:


> R1 and R3 will be officially announced together probably in July, once the 3 new lenses and the new file transfer app will be available.
> 
> I said in a different forum (DPR) that the R6 was announced together with the R5, but all the development announcements were only about the R5, I suppose Canon will play a similar trick again, this time speaking of the development of the "lower" model R3, still coming with the official announcement with both models together, the EOS R3 and the EOS R1.


Pondering that thought for a moment, there are many reading your comment that hope your guess is correct.


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## canonmike (Apr 16, 2021)

tomislavmoze said:


> I totally agree with you, I owned 1dx mk1 and all the 5d series and 6d series cameras including now r6 and r5 which are closer to 6d regarding size. I work on a lot of sport related project, since I’m one of the official Red Bull photographers and my cameras went trough basically all the possible conditions. Heavy rain, sand, snow, sea, high temperatures and Amazon humidity...And never did I have a problem with the 5d series regarding weather resistance, and when you put the grip the size is basically the same as the 1dx series with all the vertical functions. Also the only time I had a problem with a camera regarding water damage it was 1dx, the 5dmk3 went through the same amount of rain and survived without any damage while on the 1dx I had to replace the whole back panel.
> From my use case I can say that I trust the 5d or r5 series equally regarding resistance to outside damage.
> So I don’t believe that they could not made a body with a optional grip and the same level of build quality as 1dx series. And I never understood the people that would not like to have the option of choosing to have a grip attached or not attached especially cause at least regarding the 5d if you attach the grip ergonomically there is no difference compared to 1d series. To me personally r3 would be more interesting as a camera if it had a body without a integrated grip. With the r5 or r6 I can just decide depending on the project will I put the grip cause of the long lenses, or remove it cause I need to hike 25 km to the location and think about every gram of my equipment.
> And Sony actually showed that the size does not have to be a limitation for the a amount of technology you an fit into a camera.


Your comment about hiking with a 1Dx is spot on and may very well temper some user's judgement about whether an R3 with integrated battery grip will work for them. I still want one, but would not be using an R3 when hiking. Heck, I wouldn't even use an R5/R6 sans grip because the bigger the cam the less mobile you are and the bigger size bodies are very difficult to protect while hiking and easily sustain damage. That is why, while not as capable, I still opt for an M50 size camera when on the trail, protected by a small Peak Design rain jacket. If it gets ruined, at least I'm only out $5-600.00 + the cost of whatever lens I might be using. In all my yrs of hiking and trail maintenance, I know of not one photographer packing a 1Dx size camera or a body with grip attached, DSLR or Mirrorless. Too big, too heavy and too expensive for trail work. I agree that I would have preferred the R3 to have optional rather than integrated grip capability but maybe Canon's reasoning here is to include necessary 4 and 8k cooling capabilities, something a larger body could accommodate. I'm anxious to see the R3 specs and pricing before making a final decision.


----------



## tapanit (Apr 16, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Your comment about hiking with a 1Dx is spot on and may very well temper some user's judgement about whether an R3 with integrated battery grip will work for them. I still want one, but would not be using an R3 when hiking. Heck, I wouldn't even use an R5/R6 sans grip because the bigger the cam the less mobile you are and the bigger size bodies are very difficult to protect while hiking and easily sustain damage. That is why, while not as capable, I still opt for an M50 size camera when on the trail, protected by a small Peak Design rain jacket. If it gets ruined, at least I'm only out $5-600.00 + the cost of whatever lens I might be using. In all my yrs of hiking and trail maintenance, I know of not one photographer packing a 1Dx size camera or a body with grip attached, DSLR or Mirrorless. Too big, too heavy and too expensive for trail work. I agree that I would have preferred the R3 to have optional rather than integrated grip capability but maybe Canon's reasoning here is to include necessary 4 and 8k cooling capabilities, something a larger body could accommodate. I'm anxious to see the R3 specs and pricing before making a final decision.


Yes. I do moderately hard hikes (up to a week alone in the wilderness) and I've found 5 series is as big as I want to carry. Even when I've had a vertical grip, I've left it at home when going hiking, and nowadays I don't bother with the grip at all, convenient though it sometimes is. 

That said, I might still consider getting an R3, keeping the R5 (or its successor, or something even smaller) as a hiking body.


----------



## Twinix (Apr 16, 2021)

I think it will get solid video features, but not something crazy way over the top. For example full size HDMI, maybe 4k 180 and certentey 5.5 or 6k 60p video.


----------



## Atlasman (Apr 16, 2021)

Twinix said:


> I think it will get solid video features, but not something crazy way over the top. For example full size HDMI, maybe 4k 180 and certentey 5.5 or 6k 60p video.


Those video specs are yesterday’s news. That wouldn’t say much about the longevity the the R3.


----------



## markko (Apr 16, 2021)

StandardLumen said:


> Someone earlier posted a size comparison between the R3 and the 1DX iii in which the R3 looked noticeably smaller, but trying to line up the mount between the R3 and R5, the R3 is considerably larger and seems like it would be just as big as the 1DX



I placed the 1DX3, R3, and R5 on top of each other and aligned them based on the inside of the mount. The R3 is larger than the R5, but the 1DX is also larger than the R3:


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## AEWest (Apr 16, 2021)

It definitely appears as though the lens mount of the R3 is shifted more to the right of the camera when facing it compared to the 1dx. That should provide even more room for holding the camera with gloves on.

Or, Canon may be introducing more fat RF lenses in the future and need that extra clearance from the grip.


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## pzyber (Apr 16, 2021)

I haven't seen it being mentioned here so far but I read on a Swedish camera site that the R3 will utilize two previous unused contacts for the RF mount. This to be able to give more power to the af-motors so certain lenses can focus quicker.

Edit:
Source (In Swedish)


----------



## Fletchahh (Apr 16, 2021)

canonnews said:


> I wouldn't count on it if it's low volume and Canon is no longer interested in APS-C why would they create a new sensor over the "good enough" 32MP sensor they already have.
> 
> If y'all are truly doing nothing other than chasing pixel density, then most likely the R5s or whatever it will be called if it's 100MP and hits around 8-10fps would most likely be the camera for you. Because I doubt Canon does anything more on the APS-C front.
> 
> ...



I'm chasing pixel density, price, and specifically a crop sensor camera. My only FF lens is the 100-400mm II, all my few other lenses are EF-S mount (such as my pair of Sigma f/1.8 zooms). I don't have more money to spend to get full frame equivalent lenses, and I don't want to get a FF camera to use it solely in crop mode apart from with my telephoto zoom.


----------



## AEWest (Apr 16, 2021)

Fletchahh said:


> I'm chasing pixel density, price, and specifically a crop sensor camera. My only FF lens is the 100-400mm II, all my few other lenses are EF-S mount (such as my pair of Sigma f/1.8 zooms). I don't have more money to spend to get full frame equivalent lenses, and I don't want to get a FF camera to use it solely in crop mode apart from with my telephoto zoom.


Canon will have to decide whether there is enough demand for a cropped RF sensor camera. They obviously have the best data for this with 7D sales info. 

It certainly hasn't been a high priority so far.


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## Fletchahh (Apr 16, 2021)

AEWest said:


> Canon will have to decide whether there is enough demand for a cropped RF sensor camera. They obviously have the best data for this with 7D sales info.
> 
> It certainly hasn't been a high priority so far.


We have a decent idea that one is coming, know it's going to be a higher end model (not a rebel replacement), but don't know specifically when, what price point, and specific features yet.


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## Chig (Apr 16, 2021)

navastronia said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if there's no IBIS in the R3 _nor_ the R1, since Canon could justify dis-including it from both, due to durability. I hope the opposite happens, of course. Global shutter _and_ IBIS in an eventual R1 would be glorious.


For Pro sports and wildlife ibis has little value and is relatively fragile so I doubt it will be in R1,R3 or R7 .
Personally I'm not interested in it as a feature for my hobby of bird photography and the IS in my EF100-400 ii works fine for when I do want stabilization


----------



## AEWest (Apr 16, 2021)

Chig said:


> For Pro sports and wildlife ibis has little value and is relatively fragile so I doubt it will be in R1,R3 or R7 .
> Personally I'm not interested in it as a feature for my hobby of bird photography and the IS in my EF100-400 ii works fine for when I do want stabilization


I can't imagine IBIS not being included in any future RF camera (expect perhaps at the very entry level, to save on costs).

It seems like an expected feature nowadays on all mirrorless cameras, and there would be howls of outrage if it were not included on high end ML cameras.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 16, 2021)

markko said:


> I placed the 1DX3, R3, and R5 on top of each other and aligned them based on the inside of the mount. The R3 is larger than the R5, but the 1DX is also larger than the R3:
> 
> View attachment 197010


The RF throat diameter is slightly larger than EF, so your 1D X III is a little oversized (or the R3/R5 are a little undersized, if you prefer) in your rendering.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 16, 2021)

I’ll be preordering the R3 on day one.


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## AEWest (Apr 16, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> The RF throat diameter is slightly larger than EF, so your 1D X III is a little oversized (or the R3/R5 are a little undersized, if you prefer) in your rendering.


I understand that the diameter for both RF and EF lens mount is 54mm.


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## Chig (Apr 16, 2021)

Fletchahh said:


> We have a decent idea that one is coming, know it's going to be a higher end model (not a rebel replacement), but don't know specifically when, what price point, and specific features yet.


Now that smartphones have taken over the market for casual photography the remaining market for ILC is solely Pros and Hobbiests with the later being by far the larger segment.
Also the area where ILCs can't be replaced by smartphones is long lens photography so the R7 has potential to be a big seller and will far outsell the R3,R1 and 1DXiii in my opinion especially if Canon make it high spec with R3 style body , stacked crop sensor , rugged design , no ibis and a competitive price similar to the R6


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 16, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I understand that the diameter for both RF and EF lens mount is 54mm.


Apologies, you’re absolutely correct. Was flashing back to early debates over the Nikon Z mount which is 1 mm larger.


----------



## deleteme (Apr 16, 2021)

AEWest said:


> That's what gives this forum it's soul!


Indeed. Note the Whoopeee! at the end.
I have whooped, now to pee.


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## deleteme (Apr 16, 2021)

"simply looking directly at the viewfinder location where they want to begin AF"

Striking a blow against those radicals who use the rear screen at arms length to frame and shoot.
Take that you communist punks!


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## sanj (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> For Pro sports and wildlife ibis has little value and is relatively fragile so I doubt it will be in R1,R3 or R7 .
> Personally I'm not interested in it as a feature for my hobby of bird photography and the IS in my EF100-400 ii works fine for when I do want stabilization


There will be ZERO cameras hereon now without IBIS.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 17, 2021)

CameraSize.com originally had R3 and Photo Rumors posted a comparison.








Canon EOS R3 pro mirrorless camera size comparisons - Photo Rumors


Here are a few size comparisons of the new Canon EOS R3 pro mirrorless camera with the other currently available cameras with built-in grips: Camerasize currently doesn’t have the Nikon Z9 listed for comparisons in their database, but here is a side by side: Via Camerasize 15% off Topaz Labs...




photorumors.com




I think they had R3 too small since the EF and RF mounts are basically the same size in real life but not in the picture.
*


https://photorumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Canon-EOS-R3-pro-mirrorless-camera-size-comparisons-3.jpeg


*


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 17, 2021)

sanj said:


> There will be ZERO cameras hereon now without IBIS.


Canon has a new patent for IBIS in smaller cameras so you may be right.
The RP body was originally too small for IBIS.
(It also would seem like a waste not to apply that research to M, Powershot, and Rebel bodies.)


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 17, 2021)

Here is the R3 next to the C70.





Compare camera dimensions side by side







camerasize.com


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## randym77 (Apr 17, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Here is the R3 next to the C70.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow. It looks tiny compared to the 1dxIII.


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## Chig (Apr 17, 2021)

sanj said:


> There will be ZERO cameras hereon now without IBIS.


Really ? 
Very few wildlife and sports photographers care about ibis and the R3,R1 & R7 look to be targeted directly at this segment. This feature is quite fragile and complex so it's just something unnecessary that might break.
Personally I'd rather have an R7 without ibis that costs several hundred dollars less and I think most people interested in any specialised sports/wildlife camera would agree but sounds like you know everything already


----------



## gatabo (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> Perhaps it'll be the R3 and R7 announced together and the R7 may have similar body with integrated vertical grip as it's target market is sports and wildlife and maybe a stacked CMOS crop sensor.
> I think Canon will hold off on the R1 for a while so it can get feedback from the R3 so that the R1 is ultra reliable and perfect for the pros that love 1DXs and more Great White RF lenses come out including the RF800L 5.6 and RF300L f2.8 both using Freznel DO elements and builtin T.Cs
> I think the R1 will have basically the same body as the R3 but new twin digital processors using the latest ARMv9 chip protocols


Sure, R3+R7 could be announced together, as could also happen that there is just the R3 announcement alone or the R3+R1, we don't know yet


----------



## pape2 (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> Really ?
> Very few wildlife and sports photographers care about ibis and the R3,R1 & R7 look to be targeted directly at this segment. This feature is quite fragile and complex so it's just something unnecessary that might break.
> Personally I'd rather have an R7 without ibis that costs several hundred dollars less and I think most people interested in any specialised sports/wildlife camera would agree but sounds like you know everything already


If this camera is designed only to professional sport shooters ,no ibis . But it might be designed for peoples who needs high megapixel too,so there would be ibis.
Canon is degreasing camera lines and making more multiuse products.
And this might be designed for 7dii users too if giving good working crop burst. R6 is for poor action shooters with f11 superteles


----------



## Traveler (Apr 17, 2021)

tomislavmoze said:


> I totally agree with you, I owned 1dx mk1 and all the 5d series and 6d series cameras including now r6 and r5 which are closer to 6d regarding size. I work on a lot of sport related project, since I’m one of the official Red Bull photographers and my cameras went trough basically all the possible conditions.
> With the r5 or r6 I can just decide depending on the project will I put the grip cause of the long lenses, or remove it cause I need to hike 25 km to the location and think about every gram of my equipment.
> And Sony actually showed that the size does not have to be a limitation for the a amount of technology you an fit into a camera.


Thanks for this comment, I was surprised how many people disagreed with me and were upset about my opinion...


----------



## Traveler (Apr 17, 2021)

Czardoom said:


> ...... They understood early that the internet was the most powerful outlet for propaganda that marketing has ever seen. How much was actually organized by Sony and how much was organized by Sony fans is hard to say, but they were (and still are) all over the forums such as this one and many others. The number of pro-Sony YouTube reviewers seemed to far outnumber the other brands - often repeating the same info word for word. ....


In my opinion, the propaganda is not done directly by Sony but Sony's marketing feeds it. Sony was ahead with the tech (no matter how bad it was) and it gave them this fanbase at the beggining. Then (unlike Canon or Nikon) they listened to the youtubers. As some of them said "it is difficult not to praise their product when they care about you unlike other who give you a sh*t.". Even if they try to be independent it always affects their altitude somehow. Some other say that if you talk about Sony on YT your revenue is much higher. So there is this circle.


----------



## Mikehit (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> Really ?
> Very few wildlife and sports photographers care about ibis and the R3,R1 & R7 look to be targeted directly at this segment. *This feature is quite fragile *and complex so it's just something unnecessary that might break.
> Personally I'd rather have an R7 without ibis that costs several hundred dollars less and I think most people interested in any specialised sports/wildlife camera would agree but sounds like you know everything already



What makes you think that IBIS is fragile? I haven't seen any evidence so far.

As someone who shoots mainly wildlife (with varying degrees of competence) I say that any amount of IBIS would be welcomed - not everything is taken at 1/2000 sec to freeze fast action especially when light starts falling or animals are in shade and you are using 800mm f8 focal length. I am not doubting your own preferences but to project those onto sports/wildlife in general is misplaced - especially when the camera is probably also used for handheld video. 
Don't forget that every manufacturer needs to widen their market as much as possible without compromising their core sector and as has been said, excluding IBIS from a flagship model would be commercial suicide for that reason. More people would welcome it than would complain and the price difference would make little to no difference in price bracket.

The one exception that I can recall has been the Panasonic GH5s (I think) which came out intended as a low light monster (only 10MP) but their reasoning was solid in that anyone using it in its intended conditions would be using gimbals anyway.


----------



## Nemorino (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> Very few wildlife and sports photographers care about ibis


A few month ago the majority of the CR user believed only very few wildlife and sports photographers would care about a mirrorless camera.
IMO ibis is more useful in milc to get a better picture in the EVF compared to DSLR.
Soon we will know if Canon has the same opinion.

Edit:
In the video linked here it is suggested to swich the IS on to improve the quality of the EVF:





Canon R5 Settings for capturing Extreme (small, fast moving) Birds in Flight


Ron over at Whistling Wings posted a new video with some amazing info on using the R5 and the RF 100-500 for birding Hope it is ok to link to Ron's Gallery - https://ronaldbielefeld.smugmug.com/Tree-swallows-2021/




www.canonrumors.com





Can't remember if he is talking about IS or IBIS but afaik the R5 uses allways both together.


----------



## sanj (Apr 17, 2021)

Why would wildlife/sports photographers not care about stabilization? And why is it fragile?


----------



## sanj (Apr 17, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Canon has a new patent for IBIS in smaller cameras so you may be right.
> The RP body was originally too small for IBIS.
> (It also would seem like a waste not to apply that research to M, Powershot, and Rebel bodies.)


I doubt if camera size has anything to do with IBIS. Note: iPhone has it!


----------



## sanj (Apr 17, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> I’ll be preordering the R3 on day one.


It has EVF.


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## Joules (Apr 17, 2021)

sanj said:


> Why would wildlife photographers not care about stabilization? And why is it fragile?


I think the reasoning doesn't work out, but it probably goes like this:

IBIS is more effective at wider focal lengths. Therefore it improves pictures taken with longer focal lengths to a lesser degree. And this is true. But jumping from that to wildlife and sports photography not benefitting from it or the respective photographers not caring isn't, in my opinion. I personally am most interested in IBIS especially in those circumstances, where every bit of stabilization is appreciated.

And fragile is also the wrong expression. It is certainly more likely to fail than no IBIS at all, just because it is complex moving electronics. "The best part is no part" after all. But that's a relative statement, and stating that it is fragile is absolut. Who cares if IBIS fails in average about every 500.000 shots, for example? Shutters fail much more frequently. We don't know the meantime between failures for Canon's IBIS implementation yet, I think. Until we do, it is best assumed that if failure was common, Canon will not put it in a 1 series equivalent body.


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## Chig (Apr 17, 2021)

sanj said:


> Why would wildlife/sports photographers not care about stabilization? And why is it fragile?


Because we use high shutter speeds to freeze motion so it isn't needed . 
Image stabilisation is only useful for counteracting camera shake for static subjects at slow shutter speeds. 
It's fragile because it has many moving parts


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## Nemorino (Apr 17, 2021)

Joules said:


> Therefore it improves pictures taken with longer focal lengths to a lesser degree


as mentioned before the improvement of the viewfinder could be more important.


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## Chig (Apr 17, 2021)

Joules said:


> I think the reasoning doesn't work out, but it probably goes like this:
> 
> IBIS is more effective at wider focal lengths. Therefore it improves pictures taken with longer focal lengths to a lesser degree. And this is true. But jumping from that to wildlife and sports photography not benefitting from it or the respective photographers not caring isn't, in my opinion. I personally am most interested in IBIS especially in those circumstances, where every bit of stabilization is appreciated.
> 
> And fragile is also the wrong expression. It is certainly more likely to fail than no IBIS at all, just because it is complex moving electronics. "The best part is no part" after all. But that's a relative statement, and stating that it is fragile is absolut. Who cares if IBIS fails in average about every 500.000 shots, for example? Shutters fail much more frequently. We don't know the meantime between failures for Canon's IBIS implementation yet, I think. Until we do, it is best assumed that if failure was common, Canon will not put it in a 1 series equivalent body.


If you're shooting fast moving objects you need high shutter speeds so ibis isn't needed as it only helps to counteract camera shake but high shutter speeds do that anyway.


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## Joules (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> If you're shooting fast moving objects you need high shutter speeds so ibis isn't needed as it only helps to counteract camera shake but high shutter speeds do that anyway.


Two points about that:

For one, the higher the shutter speed, the lesser the motion blur, sure. But it is not eliminated and so having additional factors to prevent motion from affecting the image quality can be a benefit. Especially when the light is suboptimal. Keep in mind that stabilization also improves the EVF image and the data that AF is based on.

You are certainly right that it isn't needed, but it is nonetheless helping. If the amount of that is worth the potential risk of failure during a shoot is up to the individual photographer and heavily depends on the durability of Canon's implementation - for which we have no data that I know of.

And also: don't move the goal post. You made this statement:


Chig said:


> Very few wildlife and sports photographers care about ibis and the R3,R1 & R7 look to be targeted directly at this segment. This feature is quite fragile and complex so it's just something unnecessary


Not all wildlife or sports involves rapidly moving subjects. I personally would like greater amounts of stabilization for birds sitting in branches in the shade, for example. Basically every Tele lens already has a moving, "fragile" IS unit and I think that is very much appreciated by a lot of wildlife and sports photographers. Anything that improves this existing stabilization and also adds capabilities to it (stabilization in roll and tilt) will certainly be appreciated by some.

Canon has much better data on the amount of these people and the reliability of their solutions than either of us, so what they put into their professional offering will show just how important and good that feature is for the target audience.


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## tapanit (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> Because we use high shutter speeds to freeze motion so it isn't needed .
> Image stabilisation is only useful for counteracting camera shake for static subjects at slow shutter speeds.
> It's fragile because it has many moving parts


There are many kinds of nature photography, not all of them use high shutter speeds.

As for fragility, theoretically more moving parts mean more things that can break but whether or not that is significant in practice with IBIS is an empirical question and I haven't seen many reports of IBIS breaking, so I doubt that'd really be a big problem.


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## snapshot (Apr 17, 2021)

tapanit said:


> There are many kinds of nature photography, not all of them use high shutter speeds.
> 
> As for fragility, theoretically more moving parts mean more things that can break but whether or not that is significant in practice with IBIS is an empirical question and I haven't seen many reports of IBIS breaking, so I doubt that'd really be a big problem.


without high shutter speeds and the motion that make them necessary, would high frame rates be something worth paying extra for?


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## AEWest (Apr 17, 2021)

tapanit said:


> There are many kinds of nature photography, not all of them use high shutter speeds.
> 
> As for fragility, theoretically more moving parts mean more things that can break but whether or not that is significant in practice with IBIS is an empirical question and I haven't seen many reports of IBIS breaking, so I doubt that'd really be a big problem.


I saw the Canon marketing video for the new 100mm macro. The photographer was taking handheld photos and video of insects and snakes. The images and videos were very sharp and stable, no doubt partially due to having IBIS.


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## bernie_king (Apr 17, 2021)

Nemorino said:


> A few month ago the majority of the CR user believed only very few wildlife and sports photographers would care about a mirrorless camera.
> IMO ibis is more useful in milc to get a better picture in the EVF compared to DSLR.
> Soon we will know if Canon has the same opinion.
> 
> ...


It depends on the lens. He does another video where he talks about turning OFF the IBIS for birds in flight because the IBIS fights with the Lens IS in his 600 F4 and it actually blurs the photos. I had the same issue and turning off stabilization fixed that. With lens-only IS you can overwhelm the system, but the IBIS combination makes it too strong. I really wish in those situations I could shut off the IBIS. They really need to give the option to shut one off.


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## Nemorino (Apr 17, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> urning OFF the IBIS for birds in flight because the IBIS fights with the Lens IS in his 600 F4


It will be interesting if this problem will be solved with the new RF version


----------



## canonnews (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> Really ?
> Very few wildlife and sports photographers care about ibis and the R3,R1 & R7 look to be targeted directly at this segment. This feature is quite fragile and complex so it's just something unnecessary that might break.
> Personally I'd rather have an R7 without ibis that costs several hundred dollars less and I think most people interested in any specialised sports/wildlife camera would agree but sounds like you know everything already


really?
turn the IS off all your super telephotos and tell me how that works for you.
with IBIS + IS you get a more stabilized view, allowing you to focus on your target with minimal movement. That assists with your AF tracking and also your metering, not to mention your composition. I'm also sure that Canon is quite aware of the IBIS durability if there is even an issue there. Not to mention you have IS units in the lenses too.

also if an R7 (or even an R3/R1) is ONLY used with long telephotos, then canon isn't going to sell as many as they could. So it's unwise to suggest that Canon is going to make three expensive camera bodies for one specific use case. Alot of pros still use 24-70's and even wider on the field, NBA games typically you see a lot of 70-200's, etc. you see it every Olympics, every Superbowl, etc (24-70's and even 16-35mm). it's not all about the long telelphotos.

for an R7? Canon is going to *try* to still get other people to buy it. Let's face it. 7D hasn't been a hot seller, just anecdotally, because if was; Nikon and Canon would have spent much more time in this market.
Canon created two "pro" 7D cameras (over 5 years and nothing since 2014), Nikon created 3, but went from 2007 for the D300 to 2016 with the D500. That's it for over what? 11 or so years of DSLR development? How many "pro" aps-c mirrorless is out there from the big three? 0.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 17, 2021)

sanj said:


> I doubt if camera size has anything to do with IBIS. Note: iPhone has it!


It is the ratio of sensor size to camera body size.
The iPhone camera is tiny compared to the overall size of the iPhone.
Canon's older IBIS technology would not fit in M or PowerShot cameras.
This says nothing of other IBIS technologies which Canon would not be able to use because of patent restrictions.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> Because we use high shutter speeds to freeze motion so it isn't needed .
> Image stabilisation is only useful for counteracting camera shake for static subjects at slow shutter speeds.
> It's fragile because it has many moving parts


Those are excellent points but Canon's shake mitigation is faster than most fast-moving subjects.
It is a fair question to ask whether the reduced durability is worth it for 1 stop or less or shake compensation which is about all we would get at those shutter speeds.
That being said, pro lenses tend to cost more than the camera and those have OIS.
The same claims can be made against those lenses and pros buy those without complaint.


----------



## chasingrealness (Apr 17, 2021)

pzyber said:


> I haven't seen it being mentioned here so far but I read on a Swedish camera site that the R3 will utilize two previous unused contacts for the RF mount. This to be able to give more power to the af-motors so certain lenses can focus quicker.


Now that is interesting!!


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 17, 2021)

AEWest said:


> I saw the Canon marketing video for the new 100mm macro. The photographer was taking handheld photos and video of insects and snakes. The images and videos were very sharp and stable, no doubt partially due to having IBIS.


As true as that is. I think Nemorino was talking about action sports and distant wildlife.
R5 and R6 are fast enough for insects and snakes.


----------



## chasingrealness (Apr 17, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Here is the R3 next to the C70.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This makes me appreciate my RP even more! But really I think the RP and the R3 are going to make a nice pair in my bag.


----------



## chasingrealness (Apr 17, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Your comment about hiking with a 1Dx is spot on and may very well temper some user's judgement about whether an R3 with integrated battery grip will work for them. I still want one, but would not be using an R3 when hiking. Heck, I wouldn't even use an R5/R6 sans grip because the bigger the cam the less mobile you are and the bigger size bodies are very difficult to protect while hiking and easily sustain damage. That is why, while not as capable, I still opt for an M50 size camera when on the trail, protected by a small Peak Design rain jacket. If it gets ruined, at least I'm only out $5-600.00 + the cost of whatever lens I might be using. In all my yrs of hiking and trail maintenance, I know of not one photographer packing a 1Dx size camera or a body with grip attached, DSLR or Mirrorless. Too big, too heavy and too expensive for trail work. I agree that I would have preferred the R3 to have optional rather than integrated grip capability but maybe Canon's reasoning here is to include necessary 4 and 8k cooling capabilities, something a larger body could accommodate. I'm anxious to see the R3 specs and pricing before making a final decision.


Canon M50 mark ii with an speed booster and the R3 might be the perfect duo. I have an RP and love it for what it is. Wish they had an RP sized camera with trail-worthy weather sealing, though.


----------



## Czardoom (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> For Pro sports and wildlife ibis has little value and is relatively fragile so I doubt it will be in R1,R3 or R7 .
> Personally I'm not interested in it as a feature for my hobby of bird photography and the IS in my EF100-400 ii works fine for when I do want stabilization


That's funny, whenever I have the need to shoot some wildlife, IBIS may be the most important factor in getting a sharp shot.


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 17, 2021)

canonnews said:


> really?
> turn the IS off all your super telephotos and tell me how that works for you.
> with IBIS + IS you get a more stabilized view, allowing you to focus on your target with minimal movement. That assists with your AF tracking and also your metering, not to mention your composition. I'm also sure that Canon is quite aware of the IBIS durability if there is even an issue there. Not to mention you have IS units in the lenses too.
> 
> ...


Problem is with the super-teles the IBIS and the IS start fighting each other when you are dealing with fast moving objects. The stabilization is just too strong. It's fine if you're shooting a perched bird or something relatively stationary but as soon as you start to swing that big lens it actually blurs the image even at super high shutter speeds. I end up shutting it off altogether. I never had that issue with my 1DX II. I don't have a problem with having IBIS in the camera. It's fantastic on my unstabilized shorter primes (85 1.4 ART, 135 f2, etc...) and relatively still objects, but I wish I could just shut it off and keep my lens stabilization on my 600. Before I realized the problem I was tracking short-eared owls and swung the camera quickly on the gimbal and the entire IS system in the lens just freaked out. The element started banging around inside the lens. I had to pull the battery.


----------



## canonnews (Apr 17, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> Problem is with the super-teles the IBIS and the IS start fighting each other when you are dealing with fast moving objects. The stabilization is just too strong. It's fine if you're shooting a perched bird or something relatively stationary but as soon as you start to swing that big lens it actually blurs the image even at super high shutter speeds. I end up shutting it off altogether. I never had that issue with my 1DX II. I don't have a problem with having IBIS in the camera. It's fantastic on my unstabilized shorter primes (85 1.4 ART, 135 f2, etc...) and relatively still objects, but I wish I could just shut it off and keep my lens stabilization on my 600. Before I realized the problem I was tracking short-eared owls and swung the camera quickly on the gimbal and the entire IS system in the lens just freaked out. The element started banging around inside the lens. I had to pull the battery.


There's an assumption there that the R6 or R5 to the IBIS unit in an R3,etc wouldn't be improved though.
Canon's pretty aware that panning actions would need to be handled by the IBIS + IS unit.

I do assume you are talking about an R5/R6 with a L telephoto?


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 17, 2021)

canonnews said:


> There's an assumption there that the R6 or R5 to the IBIS unit in an R3,etc wouldn't be improved though.
> Canon's pretty aware that panning actions would need to be handled by the IBIS + IS unit.
> 
> I do assume you are talking about an R5/R6 with a L telephoto?


Yes. Either of them with the 600 f4 II


----------



## Fletchahh (Apr 17, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> Problem is with the super-teles the IBIS and the IS start fighting each other when you are dealing with fast moving objects. The stabilization is just too strong. It's fine if you're shooting a perched bird or something relatively stationary but as soon as you start to swing that big lens it actually blurs the image even at super high shutter speeds. I end up shutting it off altogether. I never had that issue with my 1DX II. I don't have a problem with having IBIS in the camera. It's fantastic on my unstabilized shorter primes (85 1.4 ART, 135 f2, etc...) and relatively still objects, but I wish I could just shut it off and keep my lens stabilization on my 600. Before I realized the problem I was tracking short-eared owls and swung the camera quickly on the gimbal and the entire IS system in the lens just freaked out. The element started banging around inside the lens. I had to pull the battery.


I’m curious, which IS mode was the lens in when this happened?


----------



## reef58 (Apr 17, 2021)

Joules said:


> I think the reasoning doesn't work out, but it probably goes like this:
> 
> IBIS is more effective at wider focal lengths. Therefore it improves pictures taken with longer focal lengths to a lesser degree. And this is true. But jumping from that to wildlife and sports photography not benefitting from it or the respective photographers not caring isn't, in my opinion. I personally am most interested in IBIS especially in those circumstances, where every bit of stabilization is appreciated.
> 
> And fragile is also the wrong expression. It is certainly more likely to fail than no IBIS at all, just because it is complex moving electronics. "The best part is no part" after all. But that's a relative statement, and stating that it is fragile is absolut. Who cares if IBIS fails in average about every 500.000 shots, for example? Shutters fail much more frequently. We don't know the meantime between failures for Canon's IBIS implementation yet, I think. Until we do, it is best assumed that if failure was common, Canon will not put it in a 1 series equivalent body.


It probably has more to do with generally working on a tripod. I rarely use IS on my 500, 100 to 400 or 24-105. I don't have an issue with IBIS, but when shooting wildlife it probably will not get used much unless something jumps up unexpected and I grab the camera for a quick shot. 

The other factor is if you are shooting wildlife then the lenses being used probably have IS if needed.

That being said I would be very surprised if the R1 R3 or really any R at this point doesn't have IBIS unless it is a bare bones model.


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 17, 2021)

Fletchahh said:


> I’m curious, which IS mode was the lens in when this happened?


The time it freaked out I was in Mode 1... which was my first mistake. I never really had to fuss with that with my DSLRs, but with the IBIS combo its a problem. Mode 2 seems to allow me to Pan fine as long as I stay on an even plain. Which almost never happens with birds.


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## Fletchahh (Apr 17, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> The time it freaked out I was in Mode 1... which was my first mistake. I never really had to fuss with that with my DSLRs, but with the IBIS combo its a problem. Mode 2 seems to allow me to Pan fine as long as I stay on an even plain. Which almost never happens with birds.


Ah, that makes sense. I’ve recently switched over to mostly just using Mode 3. Framing is a little more difficult, but I haven’t had any issues with blurry photos because of the IS.

Though my setup for shooting birds is exclusively handheld with my 100-400mm II and 7D2, for what it’s worth


----------



## Chig (Apr 17, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> The time it freaked out I was in Mode 1... which was my first mistake. I never really had to fuss with that with my DSLRs, but with the IBIS combo its a problem. Mode 2 seems to allow me to Pan fine as long as I stay on an even plain. Which almost never happens with birds.


It is frustrating that Canon forces users to have IBIS in camera and IS in lenses to be only used together in R5&6 with no option to switch off IBIS but keep IS in the lens on.
Canon's lens IS has proven reliability for those times it is helpful but IBIS can be a bit problematic it seems.
A software update giving users the option to use lens IS on it's own would be helpful.
Perhaps Canon may fit IBIS to the R3 as a test run before deciding whether it's reliable enough to put in the R1
I suspect several technologies such as the Eye Controlled AF , IBIS & Flippy screen will be fitted to the R3 in a test run before the R1 specs are finalised and I think the overall design of these 2 cameras will be similar with identical bodies and perhaps the R7 will share this cool new Integrated body too ? (Personally I would love an integrated vertical grip in the R7 as I recently added a vertical grip to my 7Dii and I love the improved ergonomics and fantastic battery life)
I would think the tooling costs of each Magnesium body shell is very high so I was surprised Canon used slightly different sized bodies for the R5 & R6 given the production runs for these cameras are probably fairly small.
However they may have some clever inexpensive way of making new tooling as they seem to make a huge number of different size bodies for all their expensive Magnesium shelled bodies none of which are made in very large numbers


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 17, 2021)

Chig said:


> It is frustrating that Canon forces users to have IBIS in camera and IS in lenses to be only used together in R5&6 with no option to switch off IBIS but keep IS in the lens on.


Please raise this as an issue with Canon.
The more people who do the higher the chances of getting it fixed.
It is the last flaw that I care about in the R5.


----------



## john1970 (Apr 17, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Please raise this as an issue with Canon.
> The more people who do the higher the chances of getting it fixed.
> It is the last flaw that I care about in the R5.


How do we go about reporting this as a "bug" to Canon? I rare circumstances I to would like to be able to keep the lens IS and turn off the IBIS.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 17, 2021)

john1970 said:


> How do we go about reporting this as a "bug" to Canon? I rare circumstances I to would like to be able to keep the lens IS and turn off the IBIS.


Go to the Canon Support link on canon.com.
If your camera is not registered then ask the store you bought it from to contact Canon.


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## AEWest (Apr 17, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> As true as that is. I think Nemorino was talking about action sports and distant wildlife.
> R5 and R6 are fast enough for insects and snakes.


The challenge is that the cameras have to appeal to a broad audience. I don’t use ultra high shutter speeds but the camera has it for those that do.

I try to think of it for the broader market rather than my own specific needs.


----------



## dilbert (Apr 18, 2021)

pzyber said:


> I haven't seen it being mentioned here so far but I read on a Swedish camera site that the R3 will utilize two previous unused contacts for the RF mount. This to be able to give more power to the af-motors so certain lenses can focus quicker.



And that silver end of the new RF 400 & RF 600 will take advantage of that, meaning that the new silver end point is more than just a "built in adapter".


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## Jaysheldon (Apr 18, 2021)

All this talk about IBIS has me wondering... has anyone used an R5/R6 with an EF400mm f5.6? Does IBIS help on/off a tripod?


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## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

Jaysheldon said:


> All this talk about IBIS has me wondering... has anyone used an R5/R6 with an EF400mm f5.6? Does IBIS help on/off a tripod?


It is recommended to turn IBIS off when on a tripod.


----------



## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

Chig said:


> Because we use high shutter speeds to freeze motion so it isn't needed .
> Image stabilisation is only useful for counteracting camera shake for static subjects at slow shutter speeds.
> It's fragile because it has many moving parts


Nope. Wrong on both accounts. There are many wildlife shots that are not high speed. Of course, you realize that. And there is no proof that that IBIS will make a camera fragile. None.


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## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

Chig said:


> If you're shooting fast moving objects you need high shutter speeds so ibis isn't needed as it only helps to counteract camera shake but high shutter speeds do that anyway.





canonnews said:


> really?
> turn the IS off all your super telephotos and tell me how that works for you.
> with IBIS + IS you get a more stabilized view, allowing you to focus on your target with minimal movement. That assists with your AF tracking and also your metering, not to mention your composition. I'm also sure that Canon is quite aware of the IBIS durability if there is even an issue there. Not to mention you have IS units in the lenses too.
> 
> ...


YES


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## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

Chig said:


> Really ?
> Very few wildlife and sports photographers care about ibis and the R3,R1 & R7 look to be targeted directly at this segment. This feature is quite fragile and complex so it's just something unnecessary that might break.
> Personally I'd rather have an R7 without ibis that costs several hundred dollars less and I think most people interested in any specialised sports/wildlife camera would agree but sounds like you know everything already


Would you consider this a 'wildlife' shot? It was taken at high ISO because of low light. If I had better IBIS, I would have taken it at lower ISO. So wildlife photographers would LOVE IBIS. And yes, 'Really'.


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## Chig (Apr 18, 2021)

sanj said:


> Nope. Wrong on both accounts. There are many wildlife shots that are not high speed. Of course, you realize that. And there is no proof that that IBIS will make a camera fragile. None.


I'm really talking mostly about my branch of wildlife shooting which is birds especially birds in flight where very high shutter speeds are needed to get a sharp image even for perched birds which constantly twitch about but the same applies to any subjects that are fast moving.
Sure an elephant moves slowly but you can use any camera for slow moving subjects.
Cameras like the R3,R7 and R1 are specialist bodies designed for capturing fast moving subjects so IBIS isn't a terribly useful feature for them and any complex system will reduce reliability which for the R1 especially is very important.
No pro Canon body has yet had flippy screens for the same reason


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## Chris.Chapterten (Apr 18, 2021)

Personally, I’m hoping that the R1 has less of a focus on speed or that Canon offers an ‘R1s’. It would be nice to finally have a body with integrated grip that wasn’t so heavily targeted towards sports shooters.

Also, is 30fps a game changer compared to 20fps? Serious question, I never shoot any high speed action.. just seems overkill?


----------



## john1970 (Apr 18, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Personally, I’m hoping that the R1 has less of a focus on speed or that Canon offers an ‘R1s’. It would be nice to finally have a body with integrated grip that wasn’t so heavily targeted towards sports shooters.
> 
> Also, is 30fps a game changer compared to 20fps? Serious question, I never shoot any high speed action.. just seems overkill?


 A very fair question. I see 30 fps being used in very rare circumstances, but would be beneficial when needed such as a bird landing on a nest. I am personally hoping that the R3 comes with the 1Dx shutter rated at 20fps so that at 20 fps I get full 14 bit lossless RAW files unlike the R5. At 30 fps I would be content with 12-bit if it helps with data processing. I still hope that by June Canon lets us know something about the resolution and buffer depth of the camera.


----------



## jeliel (Apr 18, 2021)

Will Canon continue to manufacture very expensive large full frame cameras or do I have to switch to Sony?


----------



## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Personally, I’m hoping that the R1 has less of a focus on speed or that Canon offers an ‘R1s’. It would be nice to finally have a body with integrated grip that wasn’t so heavily targeted towards sports shooters.
> 
> Also, is 30fps a game changer compared to 20fps? Serious question, I never shoot any high speed action.. just seems overkill?


Every frame matters when the action is once in a lifetime moment or very fast.


----------



## Nemorino (Apr 18, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Also, is 30fps a game changer compared to 20fps?





sanj said:


> Every frame matters when the action is once in a lifetime moment or very fast.


Yes I agree, but there should be a possibility to set the rate to a smaller number for the action happening more often.


----------



## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

Nemorino said:


> Yes I agree, but there should be a possibility to set the rate to a smaller number for the action happening more often.


There indeed is an option - the camera provides a setting for frame rate. Also over time I have learnt to press the shutter, release it, keep it pressed according to the action.


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## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

Chig said:


> I'm really talking mostly about my branch of wildlife shooting which is birds especially birds in flight where very high shutter speeds are needed to get a sharp image even for perched birds which constantly twitch about but the same applies to any subjects that are fast moving.
> Sure an elephant moves slowly but you can use any camera for slow moving subjects.
> Cameras like the R3,R7 and R1 are specialist bodies designed for capturing fast moving subjects so IBIS isn't a terribly useful feature for them and any complex system will reduce reliability which for the R1 especially is very important.
> No pro Canon body has yet had flippy screens for the same reason


Canon is thinking beyond you. And they should.


----------



## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

jeliel said:


> Will Canon continue to manufacture very expensive large full frame cameras or do I have to switch to Sony?


Lovely lovely photos. I love Canon and will probably always use Canon. But after seeing your pictures I believe a compact full-frame Sony would be a better option for you. Keep up the good work sir!


----------



## pzyber (Apr 18, 2021)

chasingrealness said:


> Now that is interesting!!





dilbert said:


> And that silver end of the new RF 400 & RF 600 will take advantage of that, meaning that the new silver end point is more than just a "built in adapter".



Exactly, Canon Sweden writes on their website for the RF 600mm f4L IS USM and RF 400mm f2.8L IS USM that these new lenses features dual power focus drive which gives faster focus with compatible cameras. (Links in Swedish)

I'll also add a source on my other post.


----------



## Nemorino (Apr 18, 2021)

sanj said:


> There indeed is an option - the camera provides a setting for frame rate


Which camera? The R, R5 or R3?


----------



## jam05 (Apr 18, 2021)

Nemorino said:


> Which camera? The R, R5 or R3?


Selected Drive mode in all of those cameras and on most any high end camera. High speed continuous shooting provides the highest frame rate depending on the battery, therefore for the highest continuos a battery grip is available or built in. High 20/sec 1dx3 & high 12/sec R5,
"High speed continuous" = 20/s, "Medium speed continuous" =8/s, "Low speed continuous" =3/s and of course "Single shot"
Manual instruction below:
https://cam.start.canon/en/C001/manual/html/UG-04_AF-Drive_0130.html


----------



## canonmike (Apr 18, 2021)

Twinix said:


> I think it will get solid video features, but not something crazy way over the top. For example full size HDMI, maybe 4k 180 and certentey 5.5 or 6k 60p video.


I echo your request for full size HDMI port. With the larger body, it certainly can accommodate one. Of all the Canon film bodies I owned over the yrs, the EOS 3 was my favorite, so much so, that I owned two of them, which I mostly used for weddings.


----------



## canonmike (Apr 18, 2021)

Fletchahh said:


> I'm chasing pixel density, price, and specifically a crop sensor camera. My only FF lens is the 100-400mm II, all my few other lenses are EF-S mount (such as my pair of Sigma f/1.8 zooms). I don't have more money to spend to get full frame equivalent lenses, and I don't want to get a FF camera to use it solely in crop mode apart from with my telephoto zoom.


We have to recognize and echo your meaningful comment about, "I DON'T HAVE MORE MONEY"......we need to remember that budget constraints effect all of us on some level, especially given the current high pricing of mirrorless bodies and lenses, across all brands. For yrs, I have drooled over the latest versions of EF 500mm F4L, 600mm F4L priced in $10-15k range but even if I saw a bargain used one, for say $7k, all I could do is to say, "Boy that sure is cheap." I do own an EF version 1 500 is but was only able to purchase it after I found one used for well under $3k. Even then, I found it difficult to justify spending that much money on a lens I would only use occasionally. I filed that purchase under I just wanted it, not necessarily needed it. I hope you get your wish for a reasonably priced mirrorless Canon APSC body.


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## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

Nemorino said:


> Which camera? The R, R5 or R3?


I have the R5 and it has the option. My 1dx2 had the option. R3 is not out so no one knows but I am sure it will have the feature too. I vaguely remember 5d4 having this too. You can set the burst rate to fast or slow.


----------



## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

sanj said:


> There indeed is an option - the camera provides a setting for frame rate. Also over time I have learnt to press the shutter, release it, keep it pressed according to the action.


In other words, I always keep it on hi burst but control fps with how long I keep the shutter pressed. If I keep it on low burst but the situation demands high burst, by the time I change it, the moment would be lost. I have (many have) learnt to press it so that a single frame is shot if we so want.


----------



## john1970 (Apr 18, 2021)

pzyber said:


> Exactly, Canon Sweden writes on their website for the RF 600mm f4L IS USM and RF 400mm f2.8L IS USM that these new lenses features dual power focus drive which gives faster focus with compatible cameras. (Links in Swedish)
> 
> I'll also add a source on my other post.


 I wonder which cameras are compatible. Obviously, the upcoming R3 has the compatibility, but I wonder if the R5 also will have this benefit. Thank you for sharing the link.


----------



## Billybob (Apr 18, 2021)

sanj said:


> Lovely lovely photos. I love Canon and will probably always use Canon. But after seeing your pictures I believe a compact full-frame Sony would be a better option for you. Keep up the good work sir!


I agree that Jean Charles photos are lovely. But why would he need to move to Sony for a compact camera when the R5/R6 pair are fabulous cameras for both landscape and most action purposes? Are these amazing--multiple Camera-of-the-Year award winners--suddenly obsolete because Canon has now announced a faster camera?

No doubt that Canon will continue to update the compact cameras as well as the integrated-grip cameras so "flaws" and deficiencies in currently available cameras will be addressed. The beauty of the Canon approach is that you can choose between compact and integrated-grip cameras. Sony does not provide that choice.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 18, 2021)

Chig said:


> I'm really talking mostly about my branch of wildlife shooting ...
> Cameras like the R3,R7 and R1 are specialist bodies designed for capturing fast moving subjects so IBIS isn't a terribly useful feature


Canon can’t afford to design cameras for one specific use case. Where is your evidence that IBIS reduces reliability? Absent that, if you don’t want to use a feature then just turn it off.


----------



## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

Billybob said:


> I agree that Jean Charles photos are lovely. But why would he need to move to Sony for a compact camera when the R5/R6 pair are fabulous cameras for both landscape and most action purposes? Are these amazing--multiple Camera-of-the-Year award winners--suddenly obsolete because Canon has now announced a faster camera?
> 
> No doubt that Canon will continue to update the compact cameras as well as the integrated-grip cameras so "flaws" in currently available cameras will be addressed. The beauty of the Canon approach is that you can choose between compact and integrated-grip cameras. Sony does not provide that choice.


Yes, you are absolutely right. I felt that the Sony IQ in smaller form factors may work better for him.


----------



## usern4cr (Apr 18, 2021)

sanj said:


> It is recommended to turn IBIS off when on a tripod.


I know that the recommendation to turn IS off (in general) when on a tripod has been the default saying from manufacturers,
but I have found better performance by turning it on when on a tripod.
I use lightweight travel tripods and under high magnification I can see slight vibrations in the back LCD from any disturbances, especially wind.
The IS (OIS and IBIS) helps to eliminate this motion you don't expect to have.
YMMV


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## usern4cr (Apr 18, 2021)

sanj said:


> There indeed is an option - the camera provides a setting for frame rate. Also over time I have learnt to press the shutter, release it, keep it pressed according to the action.


On the R5 in full ES, it overrides the normal hi/mid/lo FPS settings and forces you to shoot at 20 FPS.
This is a *major* PITA for those that only want to silence the shutter sound without changing their preferred FPS.

If you have found that yours behaves differently, please let me know so I can do the same on mine.

And yes, I also use the method to hold the shutter down for the appropriate length according to the action.


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## sanj (Apr 18, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> I know that the recommendation to turn IS off (in general) when on a tripod has been the default saying from manufacturers,
> but I have found better performance by turning it on when on a tripod.
> I use lightweight travel tripods and under high magnification I can see slight vibrations in the back LCD from any disturbances, especially wind.
> The IS (OIS and IBIS) helps to eliminate this motion you don't expect to have.
> YMMV


I meant a proper, functional tripod. Sir.


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## usern4cr (Apr 18, 2021)

sanj said:


> I meant a proper, functional tripod. Sir.


So all the carbon fiber travel tripods are not proper, or functional? 
Wow, I guess I should bow down to you, "Sir".


----------



## LSXPhotog (Apr 18, 2021)

The key features I'm concerned about as a professional motorsports photographer that also shoots commercial video:

What is the sensor resolution and will there be options for physically smaller RAW files? While I love the 45mp and cRAW option the R5 brings me, the lack of any option for smaller image resolutions when shooting in RAW is unfortunate. If this camera brings us 30-50mp - which I really truly hope we don't see another 20-24mp camera - then I would love to see them bring a mRAW or sRAW option in addition to cRAW. I don't always need high resolution when I'm shooting certain car classes.
Will there be an option to manually adjust continuous shooting speeds? The R5 and R6 are stubbornly locked at 20fps or 1fps...this doesn't help me. I will often only need 10fps to get the job done, and then some cars I would LOVE to shoot at 20/30fps for all the incredible details the human eye can miss. But during a wedding...yeah, I don't need or want 20+fps at all times I need silent shutter. Taps on the shutter provide great little bursts, but during some sequences it would be nice to adjust the fps and shoot an entire part of the wedding without overloading my computer with files.
THE DEAL BREAKER FOR ME....As I move into shooting commercial video very heavily, I would love to have just ONE camera not have any potential overheating problems and be able to record indefinitely past 29:59 minutes. I really hope this camera brings unrestricted video recording to the table. All the photography features sound great, but nothing that has me eager to replace my R5...which replaced my 1DX Mark II. Bringing this to the table would help me to justify the business purchase.
Finally....IBIS. Please continue with the IBIS system, but for the LOVE OF GOD!! Let us control IBIS independently from lens IS!!! This is especially annoying when shooting video because lens IS alone doesn't show IBIS wobble...but shooting with both can sometimes show the corner wobble especially at wider focal lengths. Oh, and let us control digital IS independently from that too!! Why can I only introduce digital IS when IBIS and lens IS is turned on? I really hate some things about Canon cameras. haha
I'm sure there are a few more features here...but having unrestricted video recording is my top priority if I am adding a 3rd camera to my bag.


----------



## StandardLumen (Apr 18, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> I know that the recommendation to turn IS off (in general) when on a tripod has been the default saying from manufacturers,
> but I have found better performance by turning it on when on a tripod.
> I use lightweight travel tripods and under high magnification I can see slight vibrations in the back LCD from any disturbances, especially wind.
> The IS (OIS and IBIS) helps to eliminate this motion you don't expect to have.
> YMMV


Conventional wisdom doesn't always change as fast as technology, and in my personal experience I think this is an example of that phenomenon. When I got into photography about 20 years ago, it was very much the case that image stabilization on tripods would cause the image to drift a little, and would basically ruin photos taken with a tripod and a long shutter. With the R5, I've not experienced that problem, and in fact I agree with you that the stabilization has a noticeable benefit if there is any disturbance from things like wind.


----------



## GoldWing (Apr 18, 2021)

Why is CR posting a rumor with no specs?


----------



## Nemorino (Apr 18, 2021)

jam05 said:


> Selected Drive mode in all of those cameras and on most any high end camera. High speed continuous shooting provides the highest frame rate depending on the battery, therefore for the highest continuos a battery grip is available or built in. High 20/sec 1dx3 & high 12/sec R5,
> "High speed continuous" = 20/s, "Medium speed continuous" =8/s, "Low speed continuous" =3/s and of course "Single shot"
> Manual instruction below:
> https://cam.start.canon/en/C001/manual/html/UG-04_AF-Drive_0130.html


First thank You for the afford! But I should have mention I had the electronic shutter in mind as user4cr discribes


usern4cr said:


> On the R5 in full ES, it overrides the normal hi/mid/lo FPS settings and forces you to shoot at 20 FPS.
> This is a *major* PITA for those that only want to silence the shutter sound without changing their preferred FPS.


----------



## Billybob (Apr 18, 2021)

jeliel said:


> Will Canon continue to manufacture very expensive large full frame cameras or do I have to switch to Sony?


Love your photography. Beautiful landscape artistry as well as beautiful locations. 

The Canon R5/R6 siblings are arguably expensive--but definitely in the price range of competitive cameras--but are definitely compact. In what ways are these campact cameras unsuitable for your use purposes?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 18, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> Why is CR posting a rumor with no specs?


It’s a post about a development announcement. A real one. From Canon. Feel free to visit one of the other threads about R3 spec rumors.


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## Bdbtoys (Apr 18, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> Will there be an option to manually adjust continuous shooting speeds? The R5 and R6 are stubbornly locked at 20fps or 1fps...this doesn't help me.



There are drive modes that get you in between 1-20. However, to your point... would be nice for them to let us limit electronic.


----------



## zim (Apr 18, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> Why is CR posting a rumor with no specs?


Quite right, Canon Rumours shouldn't be even mentioning it that's for the rest of the internet to do


----------



## Billybob (Apr 18, 2021)

sanj said:


> Yes, you are absolutely right. I felt that the Sony IQ in smaller form factors may work better for him.


As a user of both Sony and Canon mirrorless, I perceive little difference in IQ and form factor between the two. There are clearly situations where one camera performs better than the other, but about 90% of the difference is due to the lens not the body. I do prefer the Canon ergonomics to the Sony's--Canon just knows how to make cameras that are just a bit more comfortable to use--but I've never had a problem with Sony ergonomics. Thus, for me the only reason to switch is if I truly needed to the performance edge that the Sony A1 offers for action photography. If I were primarily a landscape photographer, I could go either way.


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## Joules (Apr 18, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> Why is CR posting a rumor with no specs?


Be specific. This thread is about an official development announcement from Canon that included specs. Nobody knows what you are talking about, if you give no context.


----------



## john1970 (Apr 18, 2021)

Bdbtoys said:


> There are drive modes that get you in between 1-20. However, to your point... would be nice for them to let us limit electronic.


I would love to be able to set the electronic shutter to 5, 10, 15, 20 fps. For some wildlife the silent shutter is great, but I also do not need 10-15 frames that all look the same. Even an 10 vs. 20 fps would be great. I hope for the R3 they give us 10, 20, and 30 fps as options for the electronic shutter.


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## LSXPhotog (Apr 18, 2021)

Bdbtoys said:


> There are drive modes that get you in between 1-20. However, to your point... would be nice for them to let us limit electronic.


I’m specifically talking about electronic shutter, but also during mechanical shutter. You get spoiled with a 1DX where you can manually select the desired shooting speeds for each mode. It doesn’t make any sense that electronic shutter is 20fps or 1fps - nothing else.


----------



## bernie_king (Apr 18, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Gordon Laing, in his video reveal of the R3's announcement, wondered aloud, "I wonder if there's some kind of physical spec limiting all three manufacturers to state 30 fps?"
> 
> As it happens, that spec looks like it's the read/write speed of CF Express cards...which are pretty much maxed out by shooting raw 30 FPS at 45 megapixels, depending on the exact file size.
> 
> It's such a small sidenote in the video, and I doubt he knows more than we do, but I suddenly really do believe that this camera is 45-ish megapixels. If Canon went for 24 megapixels, why not blow up the FPS even higher as a statement if CF express can handle 60 FPS at 24 megapixels?


I think you're right, but not because of card throughput. While it is important, in the end there is a buffer to handle that. As an example, the CFXpress Type A cards used by the Sony A1 are only capable of 800mb/s yet it manages to write 51mp @ 30fps. Even their lossy compressed files (around 51mb @ ISO 100) are still larger than the 45mp of the Canon R5. Based on pure throughput the A1 should only be able to deliver around 16fps compressed and around 8fps uncompressed (around 102mb @ ISO 100). Since the camera can do 30fps compressed and 20fps uncompressed it is clearly the buffer that's making up that shortfall. CFExpress Type B has a max write speed of 1400mb/s so theoretically it should be able to handle much higher frame rates... add a buffer and it's likely a camera with a fast enough processor and sensor could push much higher numbers. That will be the R1


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 19, 2021)

Any news about the first firmware update?


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Apr 19, 2021)

is there any indication or rumour at all about possible resolution of the R3 sensor. Does anyone think it won't support 8K video? My thinking is if any camera will be low res it will be the R1 since it will probably be global shutter and focus more on pure performance than be a video monster. R3 will be the ultimate jack of all trades usurping the R5 in all areas of performance including video, or that's what I'm hoping for. Would hate to see the R3 turn into another 20MP camera.


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## sanj (Apr 19, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> So all the carbon fiber travel tripods are not proper, or functional?
> Wow, I guess I should bow down to you, "Sir".


If your tripod is unable to remove vibrations, it is not functional to me. Kind sir.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 19, 2021)

canonnews said:


> 7D hasn't been a hot seller,


7D is not in the top 50 on Amazon USA but it is in the top 10 on B and H.
This does not shock me because the clientele is completely different.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 19, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> Problem is with the super-teles the IBIS and the IS start fighting each other


Canon synchronizes the two.
It works pretty well on telephoto.
It sucks on wide lenses.
Canon either needs to fix their algorithm or let us turn off just IBIS while keeping lens OIS on.
They should really do both.
The only good thing is that IS is less needed for wide shots.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 19, 2021)

jeliel said:


> Will Canon continue to manufacture very expensive large full frame cameras or do I have to switch to Sony?


If you want big forearms like your avatar then you should use a heavy camera.


----------



## digigal (Apr 19, 2021)

john1970 said:


> I would love to be able to set the electronic shutter to 5, 10, 15, 20 fps. For some wildlife the silent shutter is great, but I also do not need 10-15 frames that all look the same. Even an 10 vs. 20 fps would be great. I hope for the R3 they give us 10, 20, and 30 fps as options for the electronic shutter.


I hope in a software update they give us more options for the electronic shutter for the R5!


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## jam05 (Apr 19, 2021)

LSXPhotog said:


> I’m specifically talking about electronic shutter, but also during mechanical shutter. You get spoiled with a 1DX where you can manually select the desired shooting speeds for each mode. It doesn’t make any sense that electronic shutter is 20fps or 1fps - nothing else.


The fps is dependent on the drive mode algorithm and linked to it even though fps technically dependent on shutter speed partially, it changes in continuous shooting being totally dependent on the drive mode algorithm. With WTD/write to disk completion ending the cycle. Even if electronic shutter is selected it is still within a drive mode with write to disk ending the cycle before the next frame. The Drive Mode controlling the master clock and sensor readout. A one press and hold and/or burst all controlled by the drive mode function/algorithm.


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## jam05 (Apr 19, 2021)

jam05 said:


> The fps is dependent on the drive mode algorithm and linked to it even though fps technically dependent on shutter speed partially (single shot), it changes in continuous shooting being totally dependent on the drive mode algorithm. With WTD/write to disk completion ending the cycle. Even if electronic shutter is selected it is still within a drive mode with write to disk ending the cycle before the next frame. The Drive Mode controlling the master clock and sensor readout. A one press and hold and/or burst all controlled by the drive mode function/algorithm.


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## bernie_king (Apr 19, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Canon synchronizes the two.
> It works pretty well on telephoto.
> It sucks on wide lenses.
> Canon either needs to fix their algorithm or let us turn off just IBIS while keeping lens OIS on.
> ...


Actually on the Super-Teles (500/600 F4) the systems fight each other like crazy. To a point where if you are tracking fast moving subjects you pretty much need to turn it off. This has been documented and been my personal experience as well. If my subject is somewhat static or on an even plain for panning (mode 2) it's fine, but otherwise its off and I need the shutter speeds to match. Of course, the pixel density on the R5 is so high you pretty much need high shutter speeds anyway when things move because you get blur between the pixels. Not the case with only in-lens IS. We for sure need to be able to shut IBIS off (or in lens) independently.


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## GoldWing (Apr 19, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Good grief, this doesn't answer many of my own questions!
> 
> "This camera will usher in a new category to the EOS R system, positioned squarely between the EOS R5 and EOS-1D X Mark III cameras. "
> 
> ...


Another 20MP?


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## PerKr (Apr 19, 2021)

jeliel said:


> Will Canon continue to manufacture very expensive large full frame cameras or do I have to switch to Sony?


Depends more on the lenses you intend to use though, doesn't it? The slight difference in camera body size is nothing once you slap that 400/2.8 on there. Or even an 85/1.4. But if you're happy with a first-gen A7 and a 35/2.8 and just want to say you have a _cheap_ _compact FF camera_, go right ahead and switch. At least the Sony forumites will be impressed. Other than that, stick with whatever system you fancy.


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## usern4cr (Apr 19, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> Actually on the Super-Teles (500/600 F4) the systems fight each other like crazy. To a point where if you are tracking fast moving subjects you pretty much need to turn it off. This has been documented and been my personal experience as well. If my subject is somewhat static or on an even plain for panning (mode 2) it's fine, but otherwise its off and I need the shutter speeds to match. Of course, the pixel density on the R5 is so high you pretty much need high shutter speeds anyway when things move because you get blur between the pixels. Not the case with only in-lens IS. We for sure need to be able to shut IBIS off (or in lens) independently.


Have you tried "mode 3" on your super-tele lens? My understanding of it is that it will disable OIS and IBIS until you press the shutter button to take the photo, at which time it will engage the OIS and IBIS which work together to take a single photo taking random motion into account. If you have tried this and still find the body rotation (tracking) motion is too much for the IBIS for the duration of the exposure (and you are using a very fast exposure to capture a sharp image) then I would say that either 1) you have to use an even faster shutter speed, or 2) there is indeed a problem with the programming of the IBIS in this situation, or 3) your rotation is too fast for IBIS to possibly work even with ideal programming. If 2) is the case then I'd hope Canon would fix it in a firmware update. But in any case I do agree that Canon should give you an option to enable/disable the OIS and IBIS independently so that the user has a choice (that's a simple good firmware update!).

"Choices are good!"


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## neurorx (Apr 19, 2021)

Here's hoping we have something at least in the 30-35mp with a very useable ISO about 12000. I love my R5, but would really like to be able to have a bit more low light ability. Yes you can use 12000, but I don't like to use much NR. Dance/sports-----really need to crop and shoot in really poor light sometimes.....


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## canonnews (Apr 19, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> 7D is not in the top 50 on Amazon USA but it is in the top 10 on B and H.
> This does not shock me because the clientele is completely different.


top 10 of DSLR's isn't exactly an achievement these days.

the last time I saw sales data, the numbers fall quite quickly out of the top 3. but you also snipped out the most important part of that sentence. Anecdotally because neither Canon nor Nikon who really rule that market between them basically haven't served it regularly in the near 20 years of DSLR's. Nikon produced three pro grade APS-C cameras in their DSLR history, Canon, arguably 2. Between the two of them, the last 12 years they've only produced two new cameras. if the market was thriving and profitable, and sold tons of cameras, there would be more refreshes from either company - because that's how they make money - selling everyone a new camera. Canon could have easily - EASILY made a 7D Mark III out of what was the 90D guts. they decided not to, and essentially they killed the line with the 90D. All that indicates to me is that it's not selling well.


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## canonnews (Apr 19, 2021)

sanj said:


> Yes, you are absolutely right. I felt that the Sony IQ in smaller form factors may work better for him.


you mean the camera sytem that if you mount an extender on your super telephoto that you risk detaching the lens because some idiot at Sony decided that the release should be where your fingers grip the camera?


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## Bob Howland (Apr 19, 2021)

sanj said:


> If your tripod is unable to remove vibrations, it is not functional to me. Kind sir.


Lightweight travel tripods have design compromises but that doesn't mean they aren't functional, I'd much prefer carrying a light tripod up a creek bed to photograph a waterfall than carry the 10 pound aluminum one that Lester Bogen was photographed sitting on.


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## canonmike (Apr 19, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> I know that the recommendation to turn IS off (in general) when on a tripod has been the default saying from manufacturers,
> but I have found better performance by turning it on when on a tripod.
> I use lightweight travel tripods and under high magnification I can see slight vibrations in the back LCD from any disturbances, especially wind.
> The IS (OIS and IBIS) helps to eliminate this motion you don't expect to have.
> YMMV


Echoing this comment I queried Duade Paton about this very subject. Duade is a prominent YT video creator located in Down Under, specializing mostly in bird photography. Following was first, my question followed by his response.

"Love your very informative and practical YT videos, Duade. Was wondering, when using this set up on your tripod, do you disable your lens IS setting and if not, what IS setting do you use? Always look fwd to your next video."

REPLY



Duade Paton




Mike, thanks for your comment, I never turn off the IS as I am too forgetful and would forget to turn it back on. Pretty sure it is set to IS mode 1 on my 500. Cheers, Duade

So, you can see, usern4cr, Duade agrees with you.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 19, 2021)

canonnews said:


> top 10 of DSLR's isn't exactly an achievement these days.


7D is #36 of all digital camera sales at B & H.
Whether that is good or bad depends on how many cameras sell overall and what the drop-off is between the sales rankings.
If #36 is not good then everybody except for Sony, Canon, and Nikon is in big trouble.
(Maybe not Fuji since there were some Instax cameras high up on the list.)


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## bernie_king (Apr 19, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Echoing this comment I queried Duade Paton about this very subject. Duade is a prominent YT video creator located in Down Under, specializing mostly in bird photography. Following was first, my question followed by his response.
> 
> "Love your very informative and practical YT videos, Duade. Was wondering, when using this set up on your tripod, do you disable your lens IS setting and if not, what IS setting do you use? Always look fwd to your next video."
> 
> ...


I never did either until I got the R5. Curious as to what body he's using.


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## canonmike (Apr 19, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> I never did either until I got the R5. Curious as to what body he's using.


That certainly could have some bearing on his answer. Currently, Duade is using an R6 with EF500mm F4Lis ii, using an EF-RF adapter. He didn't qualify his response but in the video he answered my query about, he was using his 5D Mark 1V with the EF 500mm. While he played with a friend's R5, I don't know if he has picked one up for personal use or not. Thx for your comment.


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## sanj (Apr 19, 2021)

Bob Howland said:


> Lightweight travel tripods have design compromises but that doesn't mean they aren't functional, I'd much prefer carrying a light tripod up a creek bed to photograph a waterfall than carry the 10 pound aluminum one that Lester Bogen was photographed sitting on.


Of course, you carry what you want. Obviously. And if the tripod does not steady the camera, it is non-functional. Obviously.


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## Joules (Apr 19, 2021)

sanj said:


> Of course, you carry what you want. Obviously. And if the tripod does not steady the camera, it is non-functional. Obviously.


There is a difference between something not functioning, and something functioning in certain conditions and use cases.

A thick, heavy tripod isn't functioning at all if you can't take it with you due to weight or size constraints, for example. And of course it can't guarantee steady images if it is positioned on vibrating surfaces, like a bridge or the deck of a ship, for example. In the former case it may nonetheless offer an improvement over handholding, so functioning, but to a lesser degree. Or functioning, but only for the brief periods were no traffic is passing by.

Don't denounce products that don't serve your niche or your specific use cases. That's not helping anybody.


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## SteveC (Apr 19, 2021)

canonnews said:


> you mean the camera sytem that if you mount an extender on your super telephoto that you risk detaching the lens because some idiot at Sony decided that the release should be where your fingers grip the camera?



Sounds like S*ny usability and ergos have not improved since I stopped buying their products twenty years ago.


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## Bert63 (Apr 19, 2021)

Traveler said:


> Is it just me or more and more people would like to buy a flagship camera if it's not this huge body? Everyone seems to like the A1 for it's smaller size so Canon could make one camera like this. At least for "marketing" purposes.




Smaller size matters until you put the lens on. Unless you walk around with a pancake lens on all the time I don‘t think camera body size matters at all.

As for the A1, the ergo is crap IMO just like most of the Sony cameras I’ve held. It’s like a little box with a hump stuck on one for your fingers to wrap around - they “feel“ horrible.


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## randym77 (Apr 19, 2021)

I, personally don't care about the size of the camera body. A lighter weight is welcome, but I don't care about the size.

IME, what people like about the A1 isn't the size, it's that it's really a flagship camera. It's meant to do everything. Action/wildlife, plus 50 MP. Canon still seems to be separating their sports/wildlife line from their studio/high res line. 

I don't mind that myself. I prefer carrying two bodies, and avoiding have to swap lenses all the time. But I could see people who just want to buy one camera preferring the A1.


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## john1970 (Apr 19, 2021)

Ergonomics is a very personal decision. I have used Sony A9II and Canon R5 bodies both with vertical grips. For me I found the Canon fit me better. The Sony was too small and buttons and dials did not line up with a position that was natural for me. For an individual with smaller hands maybe a Sony is a better choice. My first digital camera was a Nikon D200. It is absolutely amazing how technology has progressed in the last 16 years!


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## usern4cr (Apr 19, 2021)

canonmike said:


> Echoing this comment I queried Duade Paton about this very subject. Duade is a prominent YT video creator located in Down Under, specializing mostly in bird photography. Following was first, my question followed by his response.
> 
> "Love your very informative and practical YT videos, Duade. Was wondering, when using this set up on your tripod, do you disable your lens IS setting and if not, what IS setting do you use? Always look fwd to your next video."
> 
> ...


Thanks, Canonmike. You put a smile on my face!

I've been taking so many shots on my tripods over the last years and have always left all the IS on - in fact I rely heavily on it when the wind is hitting the camera & tripod. And I've never been disappointed yet with the results. And I certainly enjoy carrying a lightweight (carbon fiber if possible) tripod when I do use one, as the really heavy ones I previously had are sitting comfortably in my basement (gathering dust) or else being sold off.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 19, 2021)

randym77 said:


> IME, what people like about the A1 isn't the size


Lots of people do care about the size.
Sony at least came out with compact lenses to justify it.
However. their professional lenses are huge.


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## canonmike (Apr 20, 2021)

usern4cr said:


> Thanks, Canonmike. You put a smile on my face!
> 
> I've been taking so many shots on my tripods over the last years and have always left all the IS on - in fact I rely heavily on it when the wind is hitting the camera & tripod. And I've never been disappointed yet with the results. And I certainly enjoy carrying a lightweight (carbon fiber if possible) tripod when I do use one, as the really heavy ones I previously had are sitting comfortably in my basement (gathering dust) or else being sold off.


People can suggest different techniques but, in the end, the voice of reason based on one's own experience always trumps those suggestions. Glad leaving the "is" turned on works for you.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 20, 2021)

john1970 said:


> Ergonomics is a very personal decision. I have used Sony A9II and Canon R5 bodies both with vertical grips.


They are very different cameras.
Same with A1 and 1DX.
1DX always outsold A9 but it is getting trounced by A1.
I am not sure if just making R3 a more capable R5 or 1DX will get A1 sales numbers.
Sony does not have its own cheaper R5 to compete against and most of the people I know who bought 1DX for its video capabilities defected to C70.

PS: I heard that the reason that there was never an EOS 3D is that Canon made 3D video cameras and wanted to avoid confusion.
(An EOS 3D with 2 lenses and sensors for 3D photography and video would be pretty cool)


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## navastronia (Apr 20, 2021)

randym77 said:


> IME, what people like about the A1 isn't the size, it's that it's really a flagship camera. It's meant to do everything. Action/wildlife, plus 50 MP. Canon still seems to be separating their sports/wildlife line from their studio/high res line.



It's interesting to me that the A1 and R5 have virtually the same specs in most categories, but because Sony branded the A1 as a flagship, it has the reputation for being a do-all body. Just funny how marketing works.


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## Mr Majestyk (Apr 20, 2021)

I have the A9 and It needs the grip to have usable ergonomics IMO. I would have much preferred the A1 to have an integrated grip. It needn't be any larger that way, but it is a more robust and better sealed option than an external grip. The R3 is still much smaller than the 1DXIII, and the photos don't show it will be a lot less deep and IMO should come in around 1kg. My A9 with grip and 2 batteries is around 950g IIRC. I have the A7RIII and dislike how my pinky dangles in free air. At worst I'd have preferred to A1 body to be about 1cm taller than the A9 so my pinky would fit.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 20, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> They are very different cameras.
> Same with A1 and 1DX.
> 1DX always outsold A9 but it is getting trounced by A1.
> I am not sure if just making R3 a more capable R5 or 1DX will get A1 sales numbers.



i have a couple of observations to that, first, how do you know the sales numbers of the A1 vs the 1DX III? I’d bet there isn’t a single person on the planet that knows both those numbers.

Second, comparing 1DX III sales to A1 sales is fallacious, the 1DX III is Canons last pro body in a discontinued system, the A1 is Sonys first ‘pro’ body (which is bull but It is their first body in this price range) and there was a pent up demand from Sony users. I doubt if there are many 1DX II users selling their cameras to buy A1’s, I’d think most 1 series users looking to go mirrorless are waiting to see what Canon have in the pipeline, and that R3 looks damn interesting...


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## pape2 (Apr 20, 2021)

I wonder if its posssible with stacked sensor,wire center crop area separately. So that there would be two sensor crop sensor and frame sensor?
Would be cool have crop mode with full frame viewfinder and autofocus. Frame could be lighted 1stop darker so you see where actual phototaking area would be.


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## H. Jones (Apr 20, 2021)

Something that also just occurred to me, I wonder if Canon will advertise the crop mode on the R3 more? If the R3 is 50 mp, it will have a ~20 megapixel crop mode, which is on par with the 7D mark II. If Canon adds more support to the crop mode to stand on its own(allowing faster read/etc speeds from center of sensor only, infinite raw buffer, higher FPS, or etc), I could see Canon advertising the R3 towards birders and saying it's both a full frame camera for low light, with the reach of the 7D Mark II in good light. Especially if it comes under the price of the 1dx, it would make some marketing sense to draw in that crowd. 

I do think there's definitely a dedicated R7 crop camera coming, though. I wouldn't think a high-res crop mode would ever replace the cheaper cost of a crop sensor.


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## pape2 (Apr 20, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> Something that also just occurred to me, I wonder if Canon will advertise the crop mode on the R3 more? If the R3 is 50 mp, it will have a ~20 megapixel crop mode, which is on par with the 7D mark II. If Canon adds more support to the crop mode to stand on its own(allowing faster read/etc speeds from center of sensor only, infinite raw buffer, higher FPS, or etc), I could see Canon advertising the R3 towards birders and saying it's both a full frame camera for low light, with the reach of the 7D Mark II in good light. Especially if it comes under the price of the 1dx, it would make some marketing sense to draw in that crowd.
> 
> I do think there's definitely a dedicated R7 crop camera coming, though. I wouldn't think a high-res crop mode would ever replace the cheaper cost of a crop sensor.


R100 could have something like 80 megapixel stacked 9 rollingshutter subsensors too, what would give 1´´ crop mode. affordable cost.
Rebels arent usually under sport model resolution


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## john1970 (Apr 20, 2021)

On mirrorless cameras in crop mode the EVF automatically zooms in so the cropped sensor occupies the entire viewfinder. IMO this is one of the reasons I really enjoying using my R5 with the RF 100-500 mm lens. With the press of a button I can switch between FULL and APSC and the viewfinder automatically takes care of the rest.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 20, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> i have a couple of observations to that, first, how do you know the sales numbers of the A1 vs the 1DX III


A1 is a top seller on Amazon and B and H.
1DX III is not in the top 50.
5D and 6D are in the top 20 and they are a lot older cameras.
They always outsold 1DX but I am pointing that out to show that it is not as if all DSLR cameras have stopped selling.


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## Joules (Apr 20, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> A1 is a top seller on Amazon and B and H.
> 1DX III is not in the top 50.
> 5D and 6D are in the top 20 and they are a lot older cameras.
> They always outsold 1DX but I am pointing that out to show that it is not as if all DSLR cameras have stopped selling.


Aren't these kinds of rankings heavily weighted towards recent sales? The A1 is a much newer camera, so it would make sense to outsell existing models short term.


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 20, 2021)

Joules said:


> Aren't these kinds of rankings heavily weighted towards recent sales? The A1 is a much newer camera, so it would make sense to outsell existing models short term.


Yes, that is entirely true.
I probably did not put enough emphasis on it but to be clear my statement was about present-day sales.
I have no idea whether or not A1 has outsold 1DX III in the total number of units but it is selling as well as any new Sony camera even though it is the most expensive.
Most cameras that Canon sells are in the top 50 on both Amazon and B and H.
That includes some very old cameras.
1DX III is not in the top fifty on either.

By the way, these lists show how dominant Canon, Sony, and Nikon are and make me wonder why other companies even bother.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 20, 2021)

Joules said:


> Aren't these kinds of rankings heavily weighted towards recent sales? The A1 is a much newer camera, so it would make sense to outsell existing models short term.


It’s best to ignore the past if doing so helps support one’s current hypothesis. Or so I’ve observed.

But the 1D X III was launched after it was pretty clear Canon was shifting to R bodies and RF lenses. Makes a tough sell.


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## StoicalEtcher (Apr 20, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Yes, that is entirely true.
> I probably did not put enough emphasis on it but to be clear my statement was about present-day sales.
> I have no idea whether or not A1 has outsold 1DX III in the total number of units but it is selling as well as any new Sony camera even though it is the most expensive.
> Most cameras that Canon sells are in the top 50 on both Amazon and B and H.
> ...


I'd also question how many would buy a 1DX III via Amazon? Given at least a chunk of the 1DX III market is pros, I'd expect them to purchase through Canon pro-stores, or their employers to get them in bulk direct from Canon (that's certainly how it happens here in the UK), whereas I'd expect consumer sales to be more heavily biased to online retailers such as Amazon.

I'm not knocking Amazon, nor suggesting the A1 isn't "pro", but suspect the two cameras have different retail patterns.


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## john1970 (Apr 20, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> It’s best to ignore the past if doing so helps support one’s current hypothesis. Or so I’ve observed.
> 
> But the 1D X III was launched after it was pretty clear Canon was shifting to R bodies and RF lenses. Makes a tough sell.


Good point on the 1D X III. I had 1D X II, but did not upgrade to the III; instead I waited for the Canon R5 and am waiting to see what the official specifications are on the R3.


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## pape2 (Apr 20, 2021)

Good times just wait and watch. i got feeling this stacked sensor going to change tide.
All stuff canon been developed past 15 year and filed becouse no enough readout speed for realization, may come as one big ketchup bottle effect.


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## Ozarker (Apr 20, 2021)

pape2 said:


> R100 could have something like 80 megapixel stacked 9 rollingshutter subsensors too, what would give 1´´ crop mode. affordable cost.
> Rebels arent usually under sport model resolution


There will be no more Rebels. 7 series were not Rebels.


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## pape2 (Apr 20, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> There will be no more Rebels. 7 series were not Rebels.


Just meaned about cheap camera,yep no crop sensor rebels anymore ,but same kind of small cheap full frame R camera comes eventually.


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## SteveC (Apr 20, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> There will be no more Rebels. 7 series were not Rebels.



I could see them rebranding M series, or at least the EF-M mount, as "Rebel Mx" series, in contradistinction to the Rebel Tx models.

But I agree there won't be any more mirror-flapper Rebels.


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## TAF (Apr 20, 2021)

Ah, the perfect complement to our new lens. Wait, the firmware is supposed to work with our OTHER lens as well? That wasn't in the original design specification. Six months to write new code, minimum...


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## Joules (Apr 20, 2021)

SteveC said:


> I could see them rebranding M series, or at least the EF-M mount, as "Rebel Mx" series, in contradistinction to the Rebel Tx models.
> 
> But I agree there won't be any more mirror-flapper Rebels.


Why would they rebrand the EOS M system. It may of course be the reason why they chose to name these things the way they did, but to me (German), both the 'rebel' branding for the US and 'kiss' branding for the Asian markets just sound super cringe and add to customer confusion.

Can't they all be Canon EOS, since they all are electronic optical systems after all?


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## SteveC (Apr 20, 2021)

Joules said:


> Why would they rebrand the EOS M system. It may of course be the reason why they chose to name these things the way they did, but to me (German), both the 'rebel' branding for the US and 'kiss' branding for the Asian markets just sound super cringe and add to customer confusion.
> 
> Can't they all be Canon EOS, since they all are electronic optical systems after all?



As far as I'm concerned it's just an irritant to have an EOS 750 also be a "Rebel T6i" (and that's assuming my memory isn't faulty) but Canon seems to think the "Rebel" name helps sales here. Certainly the consumer market is used to it.

It's no worse a code switch than my having to remember to switch to metric when not on a predominantly US forum.


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## cayenne (Apr 20, 2021)

StoicalEtcher said:


> I'd also question how many would buy a 1DX III via Amazon? Given at least a chunk of the 1DX III market is pros, I'd expect them to purchase through Canon pro-stores, or their employers to get them in bulk direct from Canon (that's certainly how it happens here in the UK), whereas I'd expect consumer sales to be more heavily biased to online retailers such as Amazon.
> 
> I'm not knocking Amazon, nor suggesting the A1 isn't "pro", but suspect the two cameras have different retail patterns.


I would have not long back when I could still get tax free through Amazon.

That just recently closed up like last year for me. I now do things through the B&H store card for all my high dollar purchases, and they give it to me free of sales tax, which is nice.

That can add up to a LOT of money saved when paying $6K or more for things.

I never buy unless I have the cash saved to pay for it.....so, I buy on the card, save the tax and pay off immediately.

C


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## usern4cr (Apr 21, 2021)

cayenne said:


> I would have not long back when I could still get tax free through Amazon.
> 
> That just recently closed up like last year for me. I now do things through the B&H store card for all my high dollar purchases, and they give it to me free of sales tax, which is nice.
> 
> ...


I also have the PayBoo card from B&H and enjoy them "reimbursing" back to me the tax I do have to pay (technically & legally speaking).

But for most of my lenses, I found an even better way to save money - using CPW and their even bigger discounts (provided you're willing to wait longer to get what you want).
Just remember if you buy from their CameraCanada dealer (with a valid USA/Canada warranty) that you can't get the optional extended Canon USA warranty (which is not a biggie for me but it's best to be informed).


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## David_D (Apr 21, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> Problem is with the super-teles the IBIS and the IS start fighting each other when you are dealing with fast moving objects.


Was this with an EF or RF lens? Would it make a difference? From my limited understanding, having read the Canon marketing, the coordinated image stabilization (OIS+IBIS) only works with RF lenses. Is this a [good] reason for people with an EF 600mm to buy an RF 600mm instead? (Full disclosure: I would love to be able to afford a used EF 600mm if the price crashes when the market is flooded by people upgrading to RF  )


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## bernie_king (Apr 21, 2021)

David_D said:


> Was this with an EF or RF lens? Would it make a difference? From my limited understanding, having read the Canon marketing, the coordinated image stabilization (OIS+IBIS) only works with RF lenses. Is this a [good] reason for people with an EF 600mm to buy an RF 600mm instead? (Full disclosure: I would love to be able to afford a used EF 600mm if the price crashes when the market is flooded by people upgrading to RF  )


It was an EF lens, but I don't expect that to make a difference... at least with the current new RF Super-Teles since they were effectively the old lens with a permanently attached EF-RF converter. I wouldn't expect a rush of people buying the new RF 600 f4 for this reason. Maybe when they redesign the lens from the ground up for RF. The thing is that you used to be able to overwhelm the lens based IS system if you were moving the lens quickly and now the addition of IBIS has made the system too strong. These are big elements moving around for stabilization in the big whites. The best would be an option to turn off IBIS or OIS independently depending on the situation. If you're looking a static scene where you really don't need to move the lens much (like a perched bird) the combination is amazing. Birds in flight are a different situation.


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## Joules (Apr 21, 2021)

bernie_king said:


> It was an EF lens, but I don't expect that to make a difference... at least with the current new RF Super-Teles since they were effectively the old lens with a permanently attached EF-RF converter.


If there truly was no difference between using the RF versions of these lenses and using an adapter, I really don't see the point of them. A proper comparison will be interesting to see since at least there is the potential for differences in terms of the electronics and communications, even if they are optically the same.


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## pape2 (Apr 21, 2021)

Does back illuminating means wring under sensor is so well insulated that it can be pushed so hard that it glows from heat?


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## john1970 (Apr 21, 2021)

Joules said:


> If there truly was no difference between using the RF versions of these lenses and using an adapter, I really don't see the point of them. A proper comparison will be interesting to see since at least there is the potential for differences in terms of the electronics and communications, even if they are optically the same.


As others have pointed out, European Canon sites have mentioned that the RF versions have dual power focus drive. My guess I that this feature will allow the lens to focus at 30 fps so it can keep up with the stacked sensor in the to be released R3.


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## John Wilde (Apr 21, 2021)

DBounce said:


> I don’t think this camera shoots video. And if it does it will be extremely limited. No mention of video in the teaser and not a single microphone hole visible on the body.


The Canon Europe website states that it's "for pro sports photography and filmmaking", so it does have some video capability. It's safe to say that the focus is on photography though.


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## Joules (Apr 21, 2021)

pape2 said:


> Does back illuminating means wring under sensor is so well insulated that it can be pushed so hard that it glows from heat?


I understand it like this:

A normal sensor is constructed similar to the human eye, so that the wires/nerves are in front of the actual receptors, effectively blocking a portion of the light.

In a backside illuminated sensor, the wiring runs were you would intuitively expect it: on the side opposite of where the light hits. So it doesn't block light and also allows more complex circuits.


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## pape2 (Apr 21, 2021)

Joules said:


> I understand it like this:
> 
> A normal sensor is constructed similar to the human eye, so that the wires/nerves are in front of the actual receptors, effectively blocking a portion of the light.
> 
> In a backside illuminated sensor, the wiring runs were you would intuitively expect it: on the side opposite of where the light hits. So it doesn't block light and also allows more complex circuits.


Thanks joules 
kind of obscure engineering concept . 
Hehe i wonder if they churn out new 6dii sensor with backside wiring


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## usern4cr (Apr 21, 2021)

Joules said:


> I understand it like this:
> 
> A normal sensor is constructed similar to the human eye, so that the wires/nerves are in front of the actual receptors, effectively blocking a portion of the light.
> 
> In a backside illuminated sensor, the wiring runs were you would intuitively expect it: on the side opposite of where the light hits. So it doesn't block light and also allows more complex circuits.


Very good analogy, Joules. I've been saying for a while that I don't know how Canon could get really high MP sensors with their existing technology (with front side wiring obscuring the pixel sensors) unless they switched to BSI sensors. Now that they've switched, it probably means that one (BSI) of them in the future will be the one with really high MP count. It might even be the R3 itself - after all, it's "only" DP technology and the future QP technology will probably take more area per pixel and thus not be as appropriate for the highest MP sensor.


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## Mikehit (Apr 22, 2021)

Joules said:


> If there truly was no difference between using the RF versions of these lenses and using an adapter, I really don't see the point of them. A proper comparison will be interesting to see since at least there is the potential for differences in terms of the electronics and communications, even if they are optically the same.


I agree. The RF mount has more electrical contacts which will enable separation of things like IS and AF to enable faster response times. I have some hazy memory that at least one of the later EF superteles had additional contacts that confused some people - rumours of the Canon FF mirroless have been round for years, so it would not surprise me if the RF architecture has been on the board for 5 or 6 years and Canon have been waiting until their sensors and processors can take full advantage and in the meantime have designed later EF lenses to take advantage of it. This approach of designing lenses lenses for future bodies has been recognised for a while now.


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## canonmike (Apr 23, 2021)

john1970 said:


> As others have pointed out, European Canon sites have mentioned that the RF versions have dual power focus drive. My guess I that this feature will allow the lens to focus at 30 fps so it can keep up with the stacked sensor in the to be released R3.


I would like to see a clarification of the dual focus motors in the newly announced 4 and 600 RF teles, showing whether they actually can focus faster or not. I'm still a little surprised, given the cost of both, that no control ring was included on these lenses and have been wondering why the omission??


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## yungfat (Apr 27, 2021)

Is it because the rise of the Sony A1, so suddenly sports photographer asking for high MP camera? So everybody could just carry a single 70-200mm zoom to shoot FIFA? 

Hope the Canon went back with 1D & 1Ds strategy with R1 & R3, one for sports and one for studio. 

Cheers ~


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## EOS 4 Life (Apr 27, 2021)

yungfat said:


> Hope the Canon went back with 1D & 1Ds strategy with R1 & R3, one for sports and one for studio.


There is little chance of that since R3 is 30FPS and R1 is expected to be a 1DX replacement but I would not rule out an R3S or R1S.


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## yungfat (Apr 27, 2021)

Skyscraperfan said:


> The idea seems do be convincing people not to switch to Sony so fast and instead wait a few more months.
> 
> I would really like to know about new cameras very early, as it gives me the chance to make better decisions. For example if the R3 really comes out, I would already like to know a lot about the R1 that will probably arrive a few months later. It is so frustrating to buy a new camera and shortly after the same manufacturer come with a much better one. Especially if you are a hobbyist lke me who wants to use a camera for at least eight years.


The better camera is usually the next iteration. 

The best camera is always the one in your hand.


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## yungfat (Apr 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> There is little chance of that since R3 is 30FPS and R1 is expected to be a 1DX replacement but I would not rule out an R3S or R1S.


The 1DX has disappointed some 1Ds user (not me), but it make sense to have a pro body for studio stuff, and hope Canon is listening. 

People who never used 1D series camera will never understand that.


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## sanj (May 4, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> The Canon Europe website states that it's "for pro sports photography and filmmaking", so it does have some video capability. It's safe to say that the focus is on photography though.


There is ZERO reason to not believe it will be the very best video hybrid to date.


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## EOS 4 Life (May 4, 2021)

sanj said:


> There is ZERO reason to not believe it will be the very best video hybrid to date.


While I have zero doubts about that we do know that Nikon will be coming out with a similar camera at a similar time and the S1H is overdue for a replacement.


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