# An open letter to Canon regarding the Canon RT system



## virsago_mk2 (Feb 3, 2013)

To whom it may concern at Canon Inc.,

I am writing this email to express my disappointment with the Canon RT system, particularly the Canon Speedlite 600EX-RT & ST-E3 RT units.

Recently I just purchased a pair of Canon Speedlite 600EX-RT & one ST-E3 RT for my lighting equipment to complement a pair of my Canon 5D mark III & several Canon L lenses.
Prior to that, I was using Speedlite 580EXII, 580EX, 430EX & Phottix Odin radio trigger for most of my off-camera flash photography work.

Just FYI, I decided to sell the above equipment, particularly the Phottix Odin system, to purchase the Canon RT system. Because I thought that using the new Canon RT system with simplified Canon system will help my photography productivity, especially when using off-camera flash.

I found that 600EX-RT & ST-E3 RT system failed to meet my expectations. While there are many improvements compared to the previous generation Speedlite, I found that the Canon RT system has so many limitation that makes it inferior compared to the competitor products, such as Phottix Odin radio trigger system I was using before.

Below are the two major limitations on the Canon RT system that I am really frustrated about:

*1. Lack of wireless 2nd curtain sync.*
This feature should be easy to be implemented into the Canon RT system. But I am very surprised that Canon decided not to implement 2nd curtain sync in wireless mode. The competitor's products such as Phottix Odin have this feature. I find that the 2nd curtain sync is a very important feature, especially on my photography work. Why would Canon not include this feature, is beyond a common sense & it is unforgivable.

*2. Lack of slave zoom control from the transmitter.*
Again, this is a feature that the competitor's products like Phottix Odin managed to execute perfectly. Phottix Odin allows the user to change the zoom setting of the slave units from the transmitter.
By having the ability to set the zoom setting of the slave units directly from the transmitter, the user do not required to walk around & manually change the zoom setting on each flash unit. This process will make the photography work much more time-efficient.

I have invested so much money on the Canon DSLR & equipments. I was always happy using the Canon DSLR, but this is the first time I have ever felt that Canon has chosen to become arrogant & give the customer an inferior product / system. Even though I am currently still using pair of my 600EX-RT & ST-E3 RT system for my photography works, I am highly considering to go back to the Phottix Odin system, due to the two major limitations on the Canon RT system I stated above.

However, I still have a little bit of faith in Canon RT system. The Canon RT system has a very great potential if Canon can remove the two major limitations above.

I sincerely hope, or rather *HIGHLY DEMAND*, that Canon would release a firmware upgrade for the 600EX-RT & ST-E3 RT to add these features:

*1. Add wireless 2nd curtain sync.
2. Add slave zoom control in the transmitter unit.*

If somehow Canon failed to deliver the firmware updates containing the features above, I am definitely going to *GET RID* of my Canon RT system and go back to the competitor's product, the *Phottix Odin*.

Yours sincerely,


A Canon user from Australia


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## steen-ag (Feb 3, 2013)

Hallo Down Under.

I fully agree. But I think you should have read the specs for the Canon RT System before you sold the Phottix Odin.

I have also bought the Photix Odin system and it works very fine and you save a lot of time by setting the slaves from the Phottix Odin


with regard
Steen Aage Nielsen
DEnmark


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## Rienzphotoz (Feb 3, 2013)

While I can understand your requirements, I find it hard when people buy expensive gear without checking what it can and cannot do. That's pretty foolish. 
Its not like Canon claimed that those features are available in their RT systems and then did not deliver ... you cannot blame Canon for that.


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## RMC33 (Feb 3, 2013)

Bummer man. I love my 600's. I would sell the ST e3 RT though. It has little to no value in the RT system and a 3rd speed light would do you much more good. Just re-buy the Odin triggers if you need them till canon either firmwares the flash or release some new system that has it.

Also, no Canon wireless system (optical or RT) has ever supported 2nd curtain. Hence why these companies like Phottix stepped in to make triggers. Same goes for the zoom control. In all the reviews I read the two listed grievances were the only ones that made any appearance.


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## Menace (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm satisfied with my Phottix gear. 

Yours is probably a rare occasion when Canon branded products are not necessarily best for camera bodies / speedlites.


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## pwp (Feb 3, 2013)

Another case of buyers regret... It's tough when it bites you. There's a lesson there in reading up on all the specs. You'll do it in the future.

When I make a change to a new way of doing things, I always keep the old hardware until the new stuff is fully bedded down and my familiarity with it is at a level that is professionally appropriate. That may take weeks or months.

It would have been cool if the 600RT system did everything you needed it to, but as you have specific needs that the Odins will achieve, get some more, put this all down to experience and get on with what you do best...shooting great images.

-PW


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## Quasimodo (Feb 3, 2013)

Given that the situation is as it is, would you reccomend the phottix odin, or the pocket wizard plus III? Do they pretty much have the same capabilities (apart from phottix is sender, and separate receivers, and the pw is transeiver). The price of the pw is just a tad more than the phottix, but I have the impression that most people in here have gone with the pw...


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## JerryKnight (Feb 3, 2013)

And how exactly are you expecting Canon to release a firmware update for a flash and/or transmitter? That's basically a recall situation, which they would only do for defects. So don't hold your breath on that.

I would have thought the outrageous pricing would have been the first big clue that Canon is arrogant about their flashes. You can get a lot of third party equipment (ie. Yongnuo + Phottix) for the price of the bare basics in the RT system.

But it's good that you're posting here about these deficiencies. Maybe people who are considering the RT's without carefully comparing specs will see this and go with other flashes, and that will eventually send a much louder message to Canon.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2013)

virsago_mk2 said:


> I found that 600EX-RT & ST-E3 RT system failed to meet my expectations.



In hindsight, Canon's rt system probably isn't designed for large studio setups, but as a more reliable version of the old optical system plus the "group flash" feature to quickly set up some flash lighting on the road as an added incentive.

After all Canon is a mass manufacturer and always balances price (as high as possible), reach (as large as possible, from Rebel to 1DX) with cost (support, development for an ettl-3 system with remote zoom & 2nd curtain remote sync). Plus Canon's profits seem to be doing ok even w/o being overly innovative...


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## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2013)

This thread is a cross-post, more responses here (why do people think their thread is so important to justify posting it multiple times?): http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=12740


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## Rienzphotoz (Feb 3, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> This thread is a cross-post, more responses here (why do people think their thread is so important to justify posting it multiple times?): http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=12740


Could be an oversight or some technical problem from the user end ... it happned to me once, I posted something 4 times due to some problem with my internet connection, I did not realise until someone pointed out and I deleted 3 of them ... not all of us are tech savvy ... so give him the benefit of doubt.  Peace


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## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is a cross-post, more responses here (why do people think their thread is so important to justify posting it multiple times?): http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=12740
> ...


Probably not, he cross-posted it in different equally appropriate sections, probably to gain the widest reach for this open letter. I'm not really infuriated  but I just noticed it so the mods can merge the threads - it's more productive to see all answers at once.

Btw: I'm not arguing that people handling dslr equipment and doing postprocessing should be able to use a bb system :->


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## wockawocka (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm sure there was a very good reason for lack of 2nd curtain sync. I doubt it's something they overlooked.

Honestly though, we have wireless flashes. Good ones too (I have six 600EX-RT's) so I think you're nit picking in an extreme way...good to comment but write an open letter to Canon...c'mon?


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## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2013)

wockawocka said:


> Honestly though, we have wireless flashes. Good ones too (I have six 600EX-RT's) so I think you're nit picking in an extreme way...good to comment but write an open letter to Canon...c'mon?



A good point for a pressing open letter would be to ask Canon how they can consider the 600rt flashes a *system* with just two parts available, no in-camera rt control, no 430ex2 successor, no receivers for legacy speedlites or studio flashes... and a st-e3 unit w/o focus assist beam.


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## Rienzphotoz (Feb 3, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...


I agree


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## davidbellissima (Feb 3, 2013)

Quasimodo said:


> Given that the situation is as it is, would you reccomend the phottix odin, or the pocket wizard plus III? Do they pretty much have the same capabilities (apart from phottix is sender, and separate receivers, and the pw is transeiver). The price of the pw is just a tad more than the phottix, but I have the impression that most people in here have gone with the pw...



Phottix Odin are totally different to the PW Plus III. Way more control capability on the Phottix Odin. Some key features where the Phottix Odin shines is the ability to remotely set the power of the flashguns (in manual and TTL), zoom their heads, set second curtain sync. The Odins are very, very good and ultra reliable.


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## Quasimodo (Feb 3, 2013)

davidbellissima said:


> Quasimodo said:
> 
> 
> > Given that the situation is as it is, would you reccomend the phottix odin, or the pocket wizard plus III? Do they pretty much have the same capabilities (apart from phottix is sender, and separate receivers, and the pw is transeiver). The price of the pw is just a tad more than the phottix, but I have the impression that most people in here have gone with the pw...
> ...



Ok, thanks


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## AvTvM (Feb 3, 2013)

I would extend the letter to Canon.

They really need to 
1. add second curtain sync to radio wireless [and optical wireless too]
2. add zoom head control over radio wireless
3. finally introduce cost-effective RT-receivers that allow full integration of 580EX II and 430EX II into a radio wireless setup
4. quickly introduce 440EX-RT, reasonably priced! 
5. introduce an improved ST-E3 RT Mk. II with laser-diode AF assist 
6. build RT-master commander into all pro and semi-pro cameras [7D II, 5D IV, 1D-whatever, the one after 1D-x]

I will start buying RT-gear, once items 1-3 are provided.


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## RMC33 (Feb 3, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> I would extend the letter to Canon.
> 
> They really need to
> 1. add second curtain sync to radio wireless [and optical wireless too]
> ...


 
Canon has never had 2nd curtain synch on any system. The only feasible way to add it would be via option3. Zoom via RT would be nice. The RT system was JUST introduced this year. I would not be shocked if canon has something to hook older systems in the works. Cost effective? Who knows.


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## David Hull (Feb 3, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> wockawocka said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly though, we have wireless flashes. Good ones too (I have six 600EX-RT's) so I think you're nit picking in an extreme way...good to comment but write an open letter to Canon...c'mon?
> ...



This is the biggest one for me, lack of the focus assist on the ST-E3. That would have come in handy this weekend. Work around: Carry a small LED flashlight $8, Buy another 600EX $599. It is my understanding that Canon recommends the latter.


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## RMC33 (Feb 3, 2013)

David Hull said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > wockawocka said:
> ...



After reading about the Focus assist (I was about to buy one) I just said screw it. I honestly don't understand why Canon did that when the ST2 had it. Either way Ill be buying a 3rd 600 soon. Love the LED Flashlight Idea...


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## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2013)

RMC33 said:


> I honestly don't understand why Canon did that when the ST2 had it. Either way Ill be buying a 3rd 600 soon.



There's your answer.


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## RMC33 (Feb 3, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> RMC33 said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly don't understand why Canon did that when the ST2 had it. Either way Ill be buying a 3rd 600 soon.
> ...



Haha true. I honestly do not mind though as a 3rd flash (my poor 580 EX just died...) would be useful now and again.


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## Rienzphotoz (Feb 3, 2013)

I am very happy with both my 600-EX-RTs and the ST-E3-RT ... they deliver every single time without fail. I think Canon did a very good job ... Canon did not make any false claims about this product ... it delivers what Canon said it would.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> 1. add second curtain sync to radio wireless [and optical wireless too]
> 2. add zoom head control over radio wireless
> 3. finally introduce cost-effective RT-receivers that allow full integration of 580EX II and 430EX II into a radio wireless setup
> 4. quickly introduce 440EX-RT, reasonably priced!
> ...



Btw - that is really conclusive, fell free to post it to the official Canon forum & post the link here ... but since Canon probably already thought of all the above it won't have any immediate effect.


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## Lawliet (Feb 3, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> In hindsight, Canon's rt system probably isn't designed for large studio setups, but as a more reliable version of the old optical system plus the "group flash" feature to quickly set up some flash lighting on the road as an added incentive.
> [/quote
> 
> I consider it quite handy for large setups - more groups and autoflash to uncouple strobes within a group. The latter making it easier to get even illumination from ex. ambient lights.
> ...


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## FunPhotons (Feb 4, 2013)

On remote zoom, do people really use that? Since the lights are usually statically set up you just set the zoom as you're setting up then forget it. And at that you probably don't need much control. Since I"m using an umbrella or softbox I just put it on a wide setting, if I remember at all. 

On 2nd curtain, yeah too bad, but seriously how often do you use that? How often with remote flashes? I haven't used it yet, if I really wanted it for remote I'd use a long cord, and not write an 'open letter' to Canon.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 4, 2013)

FunPhotons said:


> On 2nd curtain, yeah too bad, but seriously how often do you use that?



Far too seldom as I recently discovered, I'll change that in the future.



FunPhotons said:


> How often with remote flashes?



Never, Canon doesn't support it :-o ... but for posed action photography this is a drawback.



FunPhotons said:


> if I really wanted it for remote I'd use a long cord



Well, your assistant could bring an ettl cable drum for one flash, but the idea is to use multiple flashes...


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## AvTvM (Feb 5, 2013)

as matter of fact, I would prefer 2nd curtain sync as default setting. There are far less situations where 1st curtain sync is really required. Almost all the time, 2nd curtain sync woul do the job.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 5, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> as matter of fact, I would prefer 2nd curtain sync as default setting. There are far less situations where 1st curtain sync is really required. Almost all the time, 2nd curtain sync woul do the job.



I expect the reason first curtain sync is the default is to avoid the issues of second curtain sync when photographing (still) people. If ambient light is low (as it often is when needing flash), shutter speeds are longer, and there's a noticeable lag between the E-TTL preflash and the second-curtain flash - that often results in people blinking during the flash exposure, and a few people with closed eyes in a group photo.


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## RLPhoto (Feb 5, 2013)

I'm planning to replace my 580 EXII's with 600RT's because the 580's optical system didn't do 2nd curtain anyway. If I'm in serious need for 2nd curtain for a off-camera flash shoot, I'd just take my strobes.


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## AvTvM (Feb 5, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> I expect the reason first curtain sync is the default is to avoid the issues of second curtain sync when photographing (still) people. If ambient light is low (as it often is when needing flash), shutter speeds are longer, and there's a noticeable lag between the E-TTL preflash and the second-curtain flash - that often results in people blinking during the flash exposure, and a few people with closed eyes in a group photo.



yes, valid point.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 5, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> that often results in people blinking during the flash exposure, and a few people with closed eyes in a group photo.



Excellent point, can you specify from your experience (or anyone else) what the slowest shutter time is that is still very likely to prevent people from blinking before the exposure is done? Maybe 1/60s? Or even slower?


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## Lawliet (Feb 5, 2013)

That depends on the camera - estimate about 1/10s for the blink reflex, that time has to accomodate the release lag and the exposure time. I.E. the extremly fast 1Dx with a wide open lens allows for longer second curtain exposures then its cousins with more muted mirror slaps and an aperture that takes its time to close. For me 1/15 works most of the time with the 1D/7D series. YMMV.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 5, 2013)

Lawliet said:


> That depends on the camera - estimate about 1/10s for the blink reflex, that time has to accomodate the release lag and the exposure time. I.E. the extremly fast 1Dx with a wide open lens allows for longer second curtain exposures then its cousins with more muted mirror slaps and an aperture that takes its time to close. For me 1/15 works most of the time with the 1D/7D series. YMMV.



Thanks, but that raises some more questions (I really didn't think about this whole issue yet):

* Wouldn't a large open aperture mean a longer release lag than a small aperture that already is at the setting the shot will be taken with ... you're writing it the other way around?

* Is the aperture shutting much of a lag at all in comparison to the camera mirror lag? 

* If the mirror speed has such an influence, why is the shutter lag on both the 5d3 and 6d 60ms? Or is this information (from http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-6D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx) wrong?


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## Lawliet (Feb 6, 2013)

I meant wide open as in set to its largest aperture - That 24-70IS set to f/4 or f/5.6 should be faster then the 50/1.2 set to 3.5. (assuming similar mechanics)

For the other points: the 1Dx has that CF that switches between constant shutter delay and fastest release. Which suggests there some kind of artificial regulation in effect; and the max difference indicates about 10-12ms(IIRC) for aperture actuation. About a quarter of that cameras overall release time.


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## unfocused (Feb 6, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> A good point for a pressing open letter would be to ask Canon how they can consider the 600rt flashes a *system* with just two parts available...no receivers for legacy speedlites or studio flashes...



I've been beat up by some on this forum for raising this in the past, but I still feel strongly about it. Canon released only half a product with its radio transmitter. Who releases a transmitter with no receiver? By doing so, Canon undercut it's loyal customers and sent them to competitors. I would have (reluctantly) paid a premium for a Canon-branded receiver to use with 580EXII and the ST-E3-RT along with the 600-RT. 

Instead, they've driven me to the Yongnuo 622C (which is very good) and to the used market for future purchases of 580EXIIs. It was a shortsighted strategy on Canon's part.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 6, 2013)

unfocused said:


> It was a shortsighted strategy on Canon's part.



It's a well known problem long-term strategic benefits don't show in quarterly profit reports, and many shareholders are only interested in short-term stock profits.

But I agree what Canon is currently doing isn't very clever, they're risking even their recent "Canon is expensive, but best" image by releasing half-baked products like the 600rt flash "system" or the 6d camera. But the recent interview with their exec suggests they know by now they have to do innovate a bit more than just adding radio tech to the 580ex or re-releasing the 5d2 as the 6d...


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## Area256 (Feb 6, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> I am very happy with both my 600-EX-RTs and the ST-E3-RT ... they deliver every single time without fail. I think Canon did a very good job ... Canon did not make any false claims about this product ... it delivers what Canon said it would.



As much as I don't like the lack of 2nd curtain sync, etc. I think Canon did a reasonable job with the system. They are, as far as I know, the only company to incorporate a radio transceiver into a flash. Which is saying something. I'm kind of surprised no 3rd party manufacture, and no other camera manufacture has copied the system. Not having to deal with separate radio transmitters would be awesome for quick setups (and to avoid having to charge extra sets of batteries). 

I don't really expect them to make the system comparable with older flashes or other brands, after all they want to sell as many 600EX-RTs as possible. And I also fully expect them to hold out on the 440EX-RT as long as they can; after all they have no real competitor for this kind of integrated system yet - and the market rules.

I'm currently on the edge between using the RT system for convenience, or going with Phottix to get second curtain sync and studio strobe compatibility... I am disappointed they didn't put 2nd curtain sync in, since then I would have been sold on day one - but for most people I suspect it's a great product. 

Having said that, I'm all for writing Canon to ask them to add these features. It may do nothing, but at least it'll make them aware of the demand, and maybe the next generation of flashes will address those issues.


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## brad goda (Feb 11, 2013)

Yes 2nd curtain and remote zoom control would be nice to have...
more so a battery level indicator would be very practical... or when ETTL flash was fired what power output from flash was used... longer operational range or the ability for add on antenna ... or RGB flash tubes that can be set for AWB or manual Kelvin and HUE...
and 200,400 or 800 w/s output... on and on..
I gotta say Canon moves forward to improve its products and they did a great job with the new EX system. If you dont see what you need from the EX system now... wait a bit... they might add features... 
personally the EX system is great... radio telemetry all built in. no need for radios dangling about.

ONE pet peeve I DID have was the controller COULD have had a tilting feature... while on the top of my ladder and the camera set high up I cant see the top of the controller.... so i used off camera cable to view.... DUH!!! I could have just used the cameras view finder on "off camera flash" setting... oh well... live,, make mistakes... and learn...


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