# EOS 7D Mark II Basic Specs [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 7, 2013)

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<p><strong>EOS 7D Mark II

</strong><a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_7dmk2.html" target="_blank">Northlight</a> has received a spec list similar to what we have seen for the EOS 7D Mark II. Some of the specs are not yet written in stone.</p>
<p><strong>EOS 7D Mark II Rumoured Specs</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>20.2mp APS-C</li>
<li>12 fps is possible – target is 10</li>
<li>Video features are said to be limited by marketing (or by Magic Lantern)</li>
<li>ISO 100-2560</li>
<li>A “new” AF system, probably built on the EOS-1D X system</li>
<li>Dual Pixel AF (possibly improved)</li>
</ul>
<p>Additional Source: [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_7dmk2.html" target="_blank">NL</a>]</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## hoacker (Aug 7, 2013)

I really hope that "ISO 100-2560" is a typo with a missing digit...


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## Efka76 (Aug 7, 2013)

Looking at these specs I can not convince myself whether I would need to upgrade my current 7D:

20.2mp APS-C - 18 MP is sufficient for me. Additional 2 MP will not give any significant improvement

12 fps is possible – target is 10 - 8 FPS is also sufficient for me as I am not professional sports photographer. Also, when I was shooting rally current FPS was sufficient.

Video features are said to be limited by marketing (or by Magic Lantern) - good to have a better video quality but I rarely use this feature;

ISO 100-25600 - expansion of usable ISO would be a real advantage. Current 7D I use until ISO 1200 as higher ISO is clearly noticeable.

A “new” AF system, probably built on the EOS-1D X system - that would be really nice to have however, usually I use center point in camera for composing and then reframe the shoot.



Dual Pixel AF (possibly improved)


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## bseitz234 (Aug 7, 2013)

Well, I'm disappointed with all the rumors coming out that this is just a derivative of the 70D sensor... was really hoping for a new, smaller fab process with next-gen IQ, starting with this camera. I really have no interest in the dual pixel AF, to be honest, and I can't imagine the sports/wildlife portion of the 7D's target market really does. Maybe I'm wrong, it's probably been discussed elsewhere... oh well. 

10FPS sounds good, 12FPS sounds like it'd be shut down by the marketing team... New Phase AF sounds good, too, as long as it's a step up from the 7D and not a step backwards. Although by the time this camera is actually available I'll probably have the money for a 1Dx and it'll be irrelevant anyway.


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## AlanF (Aug 7, 2013)

Oh no. Here we go again. I originally joined Canon Rumors after finding it on Google searching for news about a 7D II a lifetime ago. Another new rumour before the last 16 or 17 page forum has ended is too much.


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## Dianoda (Aug 7, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> Well, I'm disappointed with all the rumors coming out that this is just a derivative of the 70D sensor... was really hoping for a new, smaller fab process with next-gen IQ, starting with this camera. I really have no interest in the dual pixel AF, to be honest, and I can't imagine the sports/wildlife portion of the 7D's target market really does. Maybe I'm wrong, it's probably been discussed elsewhere... oh well.
> 
> 10FPS sounds good, 12FPS sounds like it'd be shut down by the marketing team... New Phase AF sounds good, too, as long as it's a step up from the 7D and not a step backwards. Although by the time this camera is actually available I'll probably have the money for a 1Dx and it'll be irrelevant anyway.



I find it pretty likely that the 70D sensor already is using a smaller fab process - at least it definitely makes some noticeable strides in low ISO shadow noise - there is no more banding, judging from the RAW's I've reviewed, and definitely some increased headroom in when it comes to pulling shadows from low ISO RAWs. Give me that plus pro-grade AF and 10-12FPS in package smaller/more affordable than the 1D series, and I think you'd find quite a few buyers right there.


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## -Jarred- (Aug 7, 2013)

Reserving judgement until we start seeing how the RAW files look off the 70D. The rest sound like solid upgrades, 10fps is heaps and if it gets a derivative ov the 1DX AF I'd be stoked. The only thing that puts me off is the prev rumour of being delayed 'til this time next year. May consider just saving for a 5DIII.


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## schill (Aug 7, 2013)

-Jarred- said:


> The only thing that puts me off is the prev rumour of being delayed 'til this time next year.



At this point, I think I'm more interested in knowing when it's going to come out than knowing what the features are.

I'm not really looking to replace my 7D right now, but if I wanted to make a decision (spring for a 5D III, for example) it would be nice to know how long I'd have to wait. A 7D II at the end of this year I'd probably wait and see. At the end of next year I might want to do something sooner.

By the way, 10-12 fps would probably be enough to make me preorder. 8 fps on the 7D did before.


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## Don Haines (Aug 7, 2013)

1DX like focusing, 10 or 12fps, possibly improved dual-pixel autofocus.... as a 60D owner who is into wildlife photography, this is a worthy upgrade!

I am very interested to see what happens with dual-pixel autofocus.... give it enough computing power and in live-view mode it could do some impressive tracking of small birds!


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## unfocused (Aug 7, 2013)

AlanF said:


> Oh no. Here we go again...Another new rumour before the last 16 or 17 page forum has ended is too much.



Let's hope this one doesn't devolve into another full frame vs. APS-C bash-fest. (One can always dream, right?)

I'm starting to think Canon is just trying to wait out Nikon and see who blinks first. If these specs are accurate, this is a model that could easily be brought to market now if they wanted. If Nikon announces a D400 in the fall, we may see this camera announced before the end of the year. 

If Nikon continues to slow-walk the D400 (and it is older and significantly more outdated than the 7D, which still remains competitive) I could see Canon slipping a new and different sensor in this body depending on what their intelligence on Nikon reveals. 



schill said:


> At this point, I think I'm more interested in knowing when it's going to come out than knowing what the features are...if I wanted to make a decision (spring for a 5D III, for example) it would be nice to know how long I'd have to wait. A 7D II at the end of this year I'd probably wait and see. At the end of next year I might want to do something sooner.



I'm looking at it differently. The longer Canon delays, the more the 5DIII and 6D will drop in price. So, while waiting is hard, I tell myself that I've still got the best APS-C camera overall and as a consumer, I like the idea of being able to choose between a spiffy new 7DII or a nicely discounted 5DIII or 6D.


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## schill (Aug 7, 2013)

unfocused said:


> schill said:
> 
> 
> > At this point, I think I'm more interested in knowing when it's going to come out than knowing what the features are...if I wanted to make a decision (spring for a 5D III, for example) it would be nice to know how long I'd have to wait. A 7D II at the end of this year I'd probably wait and see. At the end of next year I might want to do something sooner.
> ...



I don't think we're really looking at it all that differently. I'm happy with my 7D and don't feel any real need to replace it. The 5D III has some stuff I think I'd like, but 6fps is too big a step backwards.

I am planning to play with a 5D III this weekend, though, just to see what it's like.


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## hoodlum (Aug 7, 2013)

unfocused said:


> If Nikon continues to slow-walk the D400 (and it is older and significantly more outdated than the 7D, which still remains competitive) I could see Canon slipping a new and different sensor in this body depending on what their intelligence on Nikon reveals.



Based on past history we will likely see the 70D 20mp sensor used for all crop sensors for the next 3-4 years. JPEG shooters may see incremental improvements during this period but RAW output won't change.


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## drjlo (Aug 7, 2013)

Here's hoping the new 20.2mp APS-C sensor has honest RAW IQ improvements over the old 18 mp one :-\


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## zygzag (Aug 7, 2013)

if the 7d11 comes out late 2014 as recent rumors suggest, won't it be already out of date? with new ff nex and fuji mirrorless bodies coming out that should be able to keep up af-wise, that shoot 10fps at least, who will want a large cumbersome 7d (especially considering it's supposed to have a 1d form factor)?

strikes me that the 7d2 should have come out a while back. if there isn't a substantial iq uptick or some other compelling reason to buy this body, i'm thinking canon may have missed the boat.

they're banking, and have stated as much, on slrs continuing to be the preferred body type. the rest of the market doesn't suggest the is the wave of the future.


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## 2n10 (Aug 7, 2013)

Pretty reasonable specs. One or two stops greater ISO range depending on where the expansion is sounds good. 10-12FPS is very interesting to me for some reason. A derivative of the 1DX AF system is very intriguing.

The expected time for availability will give me time to save up for it.


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## Rienzphotoz (Aug 7, 2013)

"12 fps is possible – target is 10" ... impressive.


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2013)

dilbert said:


> drjlo said:
> 
> 
> > Here's hoping the new 20.2mp APS-C sensor has honest RAW IQ improvements over the old 18 mp one :-\
> ...



*I am not arguing for more megapixels*, but the competition will have a field day from a perception standpoint. Sony had a 24 MP APS-C rig... what -- _three or four years ago?_ It's all but assured that a 30+ MP APS-C rig is coming from someone before the 7D2 is available. 

I still am not buying the rumor that the 70D sensor is the same as the 7D2 sensor. That only would have made sense if the 7D2 came out considerably in advance of the 70D, and that ship has sailed. Why a lower trimline body would get such a vital core IQ component that a far better product will get a year later makes no sense at all.

- A


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## jrista (Aug 8, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> I still am not buying the rumor that the 70D sensor is the same as the 7D2 sensor. That only would have made sense if the 7D2 came out considerably in advance of the 70D, and that ship has sailed. Why a lower trimline body would get such a vital core IQ component that a far better product will get a year later makes no sense at all.



Ditto. It doesn't seem logical for Canon to release a 7D II that didn't bring with it an entirely new set of technology, sensor included, continuing the trend started with the original 7D (do we start calling it the 7Dc for Classic, now? ;P) I also think that, whatever megapixel count is has...18mp, 20mp, or 24mp...the 7D II sensor really needs to shine. It needs to produce IQ better than the 7D and 70D that preceeded it. It needs to demonstrate Canon is still interested in their customers needs, and still capable of competing in a sensor fabrication environment riddled with far more competition and innovation than ever seen in the past.

(Not to mention the fact that a Canon employee mentioned in a DPR interview that they would be doing something interesting and innovative with the 7D II sensor not long ago.)


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## pj1974 (Aug 8, 2013)

jrista said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I still am not buying the rumor that the 70D sensor is the same as the 7D2 sensor. That only would have made sense if the 7D2 came out considerably in advance of the 70D, and that ship has sailed. Why a lower trimline body would get such a vital core IQ component that a far better product will get a year later makes no sense at all.
> ...



Double ditto. Makes complete sense, and I hope it's true the 7DmkII will be achieving a new / better Canon APS-C sensor.

Additionally, if the AF specs at the top of this thread are accurate, that is impressive. Holding out for a great new 7DmkII to be king of the APS-C field, as the 7D was in its day.

I still love my 7D.

Paul


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## unfocused (Aug 8, 2013)

pj1974 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



Triple ditto? 

Well anyway, I'm sticking to my theory. If Nikon rolls out the D400 in the next two months, I think we may see the 70D sensor in the 7D. If Nikon does nothing in the fall and Canon holds off until sometime in 2014, I think the odds of a shiny new sensor go up significantly.


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## MichaelHodges (Aug 8, 2013)

> as a 60D owner who is into wildlife photography, this is a worthy upgrade!



The 7D and 50D are upgrades to the 60D (especially for wildlife), and they're here now.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 8, 2013)

Unless, 7D II has super battery - I just don't see 12fps. It will be slower than 1D X. 10fps is fast enough for *outdoor* sports camera 

My take:
1. 10fps
2. 51-61pts AF system
3. Solid body
4. Half stop better in high ISO over current crop cameras - useable at 1600ISO


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## Don Haines (Aug 8, 2013)

MichaelHodges said:


> > as a 60D owner who is into wildlife photography, this is a worthy upgrade!
> 
> 
> 
> The 7D and 50D are upgrades to the 60D (especially for wildlife), and they're here now.


Agreed, but I tend to wait a few models between upgrades....


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## chasinglight (Aug 8, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> Unless, 7D II has super battery - I just don't see 12fps. It will be slower than 1D X. 10fps is fast enough for *outdoor* sports camera
> 
> My take:
> 1. 10fps
> ...



That would only be enough for me to upgrade IFF the IQ is better, inclusive of fixing the noisy sky issue.


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## dash2k8 (Aug 8, 2013)

Video features limited? I was hoping that this would be a 5D3 Lite in terms of video, with the new dual pixel AF. Why limit its video when it's clearly supposed to be better than the 70D and in a higher bracket? Unless of course by "limited" they mean it's much better than the 70D but crippled to be worse than the 5D3 as to not kill its own market. Here's hoping for the best...


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## AG (Aug 8, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> Unless, 7D II has super battery - I just don't see 12fps. It will be slower than 1D X. 10fps is fast enough for *outdoor* sports camera



Unless it was in a 1DX style body. Using the same LP-E4N battery too. 
So basically a 1DX just changed from a FF to a APS-C Sensor.


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## Orangutan (Aug 8, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Well anyway, I'm sticking to my theory. If Nikon rolls out the D400 in the next two months, I think we may see the 70D sensor in the 7D. If Nikon does nothing in the fall and Canon holds off until sometime in 2014, I think the odds of a shiny new sensor go up significantly.



I've always assumed that different components reach readiness at intervals. The current test-version of the 7D2 may well have the 70D's sensor in it because that's the best/closest thing they've got to the final sensor they will ultimately put in it. I certainly agree: it would be surprising, even given the history of the 18MP sensor, to have a 7D2 come out with a year-old sensor in late 2014. But they have to be ready to respond to a D400 if it comes out soon.


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## pwp (Aug 8, 2013)

That's a good spec list. I'll have one. My 1D4 is getting tired. You can be sure the sensor performance will be a significant upgrade on the 7D & incrementally improved on the 70D. It's the AF specs and the FPS specs that grab my attention. 

Just a release date now please...

-PW


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## jdramirez (Aug 8, 2013)

hoacker said:


> I really hope that "ISO 100-2560" is a typo with a missing digit...



That would sure surprise some people. I hear it is REALLY clean at 2500... at 2560 it is crap!


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## rpt (Aug 8, 2013)

7D2 is like the Higgs Boson. You know it is out there but you can't put a finger on it!


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Triple ditto?
> 
> Well anyway, I'm sticking to my theory. If Nikon rolls out the D400 in the next two months, I think we may see the 70D sensor in the 7D. If Nikon does nothing in the fall and Canon holds off until sometime in 2014, I think the odds of a shiny new sensor go up significantly.



I don't want to look a triple ditto gift horse in the mouth, but... :

I'm not certain the 7D2 is just waiting for a Canon "Execute build plan delta!" audible to be called from corporate in quick response to a Nikon offering. I'm sure they'd love to, but does it work that way?

I don't think the sensor decision (in particular) is a plug-and-play variable in the design. I'm an engineer (not a EE to be fair), but wouldn't an 11th hour sensor decision drive a lot of other issues, like processor bandwidth, LiveView control firmware, rate-limiting the shutter to not overheat the processor / fill the buffer too soon, etc. Also, doesn't the board + sensor have a specialized mount with power and heat sink considerations?

Just thinking out loud... Maybe it _could_ be as Unfocused has said if Canon's development process banked things as they went. It's possible that they have a banked 'vanilla' 7D2 design (only so-so, think '70D _plus_') ready for manufacture should Nikon offer the D400, but could concurrently be working on a more badass variant should the competition take longer with their designs... As much as we believe Canon has armies of engineers and dozen of design variants (to some extent I am sure they do), it would be horrifically inefficient to take many concepts all the way to near-production prep like that.

(...but it would SO explain why new products take so damn long with Canon. )

- A


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2013)

rpt said:


> 7D2 is like the Higgs Boson. You know it is out there but you can't put a finger on it!



No no no. Either a weather-sealed 35 F/1.4L II or a Canon 24-70 F/2.8L II _with IS_ is the Higgs-Boson.



- A


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## pwp (Aug 8, 2013)

rpt said:


> 7D2 is like the Higgs Boson. You know it is out there but you can't put a finger on it!


+1 Hah! Very good. 

-PW


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## tnargs (Aug 8, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> I still am not buying the rumor that the 70D sensor is the same as the 7D2 sensor. That only would have made sense if the 7D2 came out considerably in advance of the 70D, and that ship has sailed. Why a lower trimline body would get such a vital core IQ component that a far better product will get a year later makes no sense at all.



But the 7D wasn't the first model with the 18MP sensor. IIRC Canon said it was 'different' to prior 18 MP models, but it was pretty subtle. So why should it have to be first with the new 20 MP sensor?

If we are lucky, it will be a slightly upped version of the 20.


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## tnargs (Aug 8, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> Sony had a 24 MP APS-C rig... what -- _three or four years ago?_



1.9 years ago. Still a way to go for that series.


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## Orangutan (Aug 8, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> I don't think the sensor decision (in particular) is a plug-and-play variable in the design. I'm an engineer (not a EE to be fair), but wouldn't an 11th hour sensor decision drive a lot of other issues, like processor bandwidth, LiveView control firmware, rate-limiting the shutter to not overheat the processor / fill the buffer too soon, etc. Also, doesn't the board + sensor have a specialized mount with power and heat sink considerations?



Speculating here, and I'm not an engineer. I can't imagine how it would be very far from PnP, considering each component likely has to be designed by a separate team. My guess is that they would give each team a target range for parameters, then tweak them to make it fit together in the the last few months of design. So if they use the 20Mp sensor they might get 11.3 fps, but if they go with a new 24Mp sensor it would be (20/24) * 11.3 = 9.4 fps. But I'm just blowing smoke...

If the 70D's IQ is "reasonable" then the 7D2 would do with that sensor if it has the performance of a mini-1DX. And Canon wouldn't sell it if it were a mini 1DX with the IQ to match. If the 70D's IQ really is indistinguishable from the 60D's, it would be hard to achieve the quantity sales with the 7D2 they appear to have gotten from the current 7D.


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## candyman (Aug 8, 2013)

Why the discussion about more megapixel? Isn't the 7D (and MK II) aimed at sports / birding shooters? It already has the 1.6x crop. For me 18mp was ok. The 8 fps was ok too. Mostly I want usable ISO 6400. And 19 points AF was ok too. I wouldn't dislike the AF system of the 5D MKIII but if the 7D MK II does not have more than 19, then it is not a showstopper for me to buy the 7D MK II. I like the AF presets of the 5D MK III. Would be nice if they include this in the 7D MK II.


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## sagittariansrock (Aug 8, 2013)

unfocused said:


> I'm looking at it differently. The longer Canon delays, the more the 5DIII and 6D will drop in price. So, while waiting is hard, I tell myself that I've still got the best APS-C camera overall and as a consumer, I like the idea of being able to choose between a spiffy new 7DII or a nicely discounted 5DIII or 6D.



The thing is, even I am okay with upgrading by mid-2014, but if Canon has at least announces the 7DII by the end of this year then I can decide if I want to wait for the 7DII (if the ISO performance is significantly better than 7D then it is a cheaper option) or get the 5DIII (more expensive but definitely superior).
Furthermore, if Canon actually released it this year, then by mid-2014 the price would have come down some and stabilized.
Oh well, I think I'll just bite the bullet on the 5DIII if Adorama, etc. announces another sale- just hate to think of the hassle of selling all the EF-S lenses...

If I may ask a thread-unrelated question: Is it better to buy new from BigValue or buy refurbished direct from Canon (through CLP)? The 5DIII prices are pretty close and now Canon provides 1 year warranty on refurbs.


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## pj1974 (Aug 8, 2013)

A number of us posted on a thread some time ago (a few months?) - about the time from R&D on new technology and putting into a new DSLR, and the time between initial announcement, to production and final release.

The most knowledgable people (including some CR contributors who work in electronics / R&D) - said that the process would usually take some years with 'new technology', into something like an DSLR.

So, I believe Canon *could* have a new sensor in the 7DmkII - as well as 1 or 2 other 'great features' (eg improved AF, eg more pts and dual focus LiveView & improved optical focus).

Hoping for such a camera, sometime in 2014!

Regards

Paul


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## VanWeddings (Aug 8, 2013)

> •Video features are said to be limited by marketing



guess I was right to move away from canon, aka the crippler


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Aug 8, 2013)

dilbert said:


> > Video features are said to be limited by marketing (or by Magic Lantern)
> 
> 
> 
> To me, this is the most interesting part of the rumour. What's not clear is if the limitations are going to be software or hardware. If it is the latter then the problem has become that ML can deliver firmware that is seen by Canon to turn a cheap camera into something that can compete with the expensive ones (the EOS-C series - Cx00, 1DC.) Thus future ML firmware for the 7D2 may be able to deliver new features but it won't be able to deliver (say) RAW 4k video. If the video features are simply software limitations from marketing to prevent competition with the EOS-C series then it will be interesting to see what ML can do with it...



+++++++1

I completely understand how offering better video features might cut into sales of Canon's Cinema line. Given that, it makes sense why Canon would intentionally cripple their products. However, I think Canon needs to be careful on this front. Yes, they might sell a couple more C100's or 1DC's if they continue to go bare-bones on the video features, but I guarantee they'll sell a lot less DSLR's if they make ML impossible to use. A lot of the 5D video shooters aren't willing to jump ship for a $6,500 C100 (which doesn't even have 720p 60fps, has a lower bitrate than the 5D, and a crappy codec!). The people who are upgrading are doing so for XLR inputs & built-in NDs, which will never be on a DSLR, so why not make the minor features (headphone out, 1/47 shutter, live video historgram, etc.) standard on all Canon bodies? It's only a matter of time until Panasonic, Sony, or Black Magic truly nail it with a camera offering (i.e. no weird quarks, no ridiculous mount/sensor size, EOS mount option, same capabilities as the Mark III + ML...minus the raw of course, etc.), and Canon better pray they don't nail it with a full-frame offering. 

I think Canon (and perhaps many people on this forum) aren't ready to admit that DSLRs are now both stills and video cameras. It's definitely more profitable to keep them separate, and I get that. Yet, thanks to ML the market has changed. People now expect those features (again, minus the raw) at the $3,500 price point. Canon can fight that all they want, but the fact remains that DSLR shooters have been enjoying those features for quite a while now (who honestly does video on a Canon without ML?). Those features have come to be expected. Canon can hold out as long as they want, but that only increases the possibility of one of the aforementioned manufacturers coming away and completely robbing Canon of its entire DSLR video market. ESPECIALLY if they rid us of ML. I think everyone can at least agree that's a pretty big market to lose.


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## vlim (Aug 8, 2013)

A number of us posted on a thread some time ago (a few months?) - about the time from R&D on new technology and putting into a new DSLR, and the time between initial announcement, to production and final release.


> The most knowledgable people (including some CR contributors who work in electronics / R&D) - said that the process would usually take some years with 'new technology', into something like an DSLR.
> 
> So, I believe Canon could have a new sensor in the 7DmkII - as well as 1 or 2 other 'great features' (eg improved AF, eg more pts and dual focus LiveView & improved optical focus).
> 
> ...



I guess you're right Paul. In terms of marketing this new body has to be really well positionned ; well above the new 70d in terms of specs and price but it can't be in competition with the 5DIII even if it's a FF body (6D is not the problem, this body isn't for wildlife or sport shooting, the 5DIII can easily do it).

So i see its specs and price between those two bodies with high fps (8 to 10), great AF, high iso capabilities but not as good as the 5DIII (FF can't be matched by crop body for now), a weather sealed body and a better version of the sensor of the 70D... I don't see the Wifi in (it would be an upgrade compared to the 5DIII).


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## Pitspics (Aug 8, 2013)

canon should do the following: ;D

- don´t bring a 7d2
- instead bring the 5d3 down to 2000 and the 6d to 1200 ($/€)

result
...the 7d´ler (aps-c´ler) buy the 5d3 and getting superb image-quality. (hey, 2000 is still a lot of $$$).
...5d3 sales growing
...and with the 5d3 you have enough space/quality for cropping the image.

most of the users will be happy 8)


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## Ewinter (Aug 8, 2013)

Pitspics said:


> canon should do the following: ;D
> 
> - don´t bring a 7d2
> - instead bring the 5d3 down to 2000 and the 6d to 1200 ($/€)
> ...



having a 5d3 I can tell you that I don't have the time to crop 3000 wildlife photos and would rather use my 7d if the light's good


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## Pitspics (Aug 8, 2013)

Ewinter said:


> Pitspics said:
> 
> 
> > canon should do the following: ;D
> ...



who shoot 3000 photos at once? 
i think most of the photographers are still crop their images. no matter with which camera they were taken. (a little bit less on the right side, more center, or a little bit closer, perspective correction...)


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## stefsan (Aug 8, 2013)

Pitspics said:


> canon should do the following: ;D
> 
> - don´t bring a 7d2
> - instead bring the 5d3 down to 2000 and the 6d to 1200 ($/€)
> ...



Actually, I'm not so sure wether a price drop for the 5D to 2000$ would be enough to entice 7D users to buy into FF. Even now the price of the 5D is not the biggest obstacle, the prices of the lenses are…


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## stefsan (Aug 8, 2013)

pj1974 said:


> So, I believe Canon *could* have a new sensor in the 7DmkII - as well as 1 or 2 other 'great features' (eg improved AF, eg more pts and dual focus LiveView & improved optical focus).
> 
> Hoping for such a camera, sometime in 2014!
> 
> ...



I really hope they do have a very good new sensor for the 7DmkII. I'm still using my 7DmkI and I still like it very much – except for the excessive noise caused by the sensor/signal processing. I especially hate the banding which is often very visible (think of skies) and rather cumbersome to get rid off in post processing. :-\


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## Orangutan (Aug 8, 2013)

dilbert said:


> It is a long way from PnP. DSLRs aren't PCs and that sensor isn't plugging into a USB bus.



I certainly didn't mean literally PnP. What I meant was that I think it's unlikely that they can lock down all the specs of the individual components a year or more in advance so that each component group (sensor, firmware, AF, physical controls, body) can have exact specs to work toward. It seems much more likely that they'll tell the component teams "we'd like to have the option for 12fps if we can, but we *really* want 10fps." That tells the teams working on the hardware and firmware what to shoot for, and what management is willing to spend in development time, component cost, etc. At some point they'll start converging on the component set that marketing thinks is best suited to the market environment and target price.


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## jdramirez (Aug 8, 2013)

Pitspics said:



> canon should do the following: ;D
> 
> - don´t bring a 7d2
> - instead bring the 5d3 down to 2000 and the 6d to 1200 ($/€)
> ...



I wouldn't be happy with Canon devaluing my body that I paid a good deal more for.


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## Ewinter (Aug 8, 2013)

Pitspics said:


> Ewinter said:
> 
> 
> > Pitspics said:
> ...


Me, when I'm away shooting wildlife for two weeks


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## jrista (Aug 8, 2013)

Pitspics said:


> Ewinter said:
> 
> 
> > Pitspics said:
> ...



If I spend a full 8-10 hours in a single day photographing birds and wildlife, with 8fps and a lot of action sequences, I can EASILY fill four to six 16GB CF cards. Six full 16GB CF cards is about 3700 photos. Now, I currently use the 7D, which has an AF system that has the tendency to jump around by a small amount every frame, even when you have kept the AF point on your subject. So I have a habit of taking a minimum of 3-5 shots every time I press the shutter to ensure I get one that is in sharp focus, even when there is not any action. For birds in flight, deer prancing, coyotes running, a single action sequence can be anywhere from 10 to 30 frames, which isn't even four seconds of action.

So it isn't difficult to capture a LOT of photos if you are a wildlife or bird photographer. Actually, it is quite easy, and it takes some effort, when using a camera with a high FPS, to keep total frame count down.


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## schill (Aug 8, 2013)

stefsan said:


> Pitspics said:
> 
> 
> > canon should do the following: ;D
> ...



A 5D III could not replace my 7D for a lot of what I shoot. I would not be happy dropping from 8fps to 6fps.

For other things, I'd like to have a 5D III, but it would not be a complete replacement.


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## M.ST (Aug 8, 2013)

I agree. The posted specs match the prototype specs that is out for testing.


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## AlanF (Aug 8, 2013)

jrista said:


> Pitspics said:
> 
> 
> > Ewinter said:
> ...



The erratic AF is the worst feature of the 7D and I have the same habit of taking multiple shots to get one in focus. I still take too many on the 5D III, quite unnecessarily because of habit, as the focus is bang on every time. If the 7D II just has AF as good as on the 5D III and an upgrade in sensor noise, then I'll rush out and buy one.


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## unfocused (Aug 8, 2013)

Just a bit of idle speculating here, but I wonder if the video and stills roads, that have been converging for the past five years or so, may eventually start to diverge again.

Is it really possible to continue to produce a single DSLR body that meets the needs of stills photographers and videographers as both demand more and more sophisticated features and image quality improvements?

From the early reviews, it sounds as though the 70D focused on video improvements over stills. That's not to say it doesn't offer a lot to stills photographers, just that the real technology improvements seem to have been focused on video. 

As a completely non-technical person, I keep wondering if Canon can obtain equal or slightly better performance from the new 70D sensor while splitting the pixels into dual purposes, what kind of performance would they get if they didn't require each pixel to serve two purposes? And, having now spent so much money and effort developing their new dual-purpose pixels, would Canon be willing to leave it off of the 7D even it it would mean improvements in sensor performance for stills?

As I said, I'm coming at this from a non-technical background, but I do wonder if a 70D that is designed 60% for video and 40% for stills might be better complemented by a 7DII that is 60% stills and 40% video.


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## jrista (Aug 8, 2013)

AlanF said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Pitspics said:
> ...



Ditto! Although in the mean time, I'll be buying a 5D III in the short term. With the 7D II rumors as they are, and the release date some time middle/end of next year, a 5D III will do me FAR more good now than waiting for the 7D II (even if it has an awesome AF system.)


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## jrista (Aug 8, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Just a bit of idle speculating here, but I wonder if the video and stills roads, that have been converging for the past five years or so, may eventually start to diverge again.
> 
> Is it really possible to continue to produce a single DSLR body that meets the needs of stills photographers and videographers as both demand more and more sophisticated features and image quality improvements?
> 
> ...



I would personally like the two to diverge. I have felt for a while now that Canon has been putting too much effort into the video side of things, and not enough into the stills side of things. I would be willing to bet that if they focused video on the Cinema line, and stills on the DSLR line, they could produce better IQ in their stills products. I also bet that probably costs more than combining the R&D together into a single larger set of products.

Anyway, totally agree about the 7D II, although personally I'd prefer 80% stills/20% video.


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## docsmith (Aug 8, 2013)

Ha....I am not the only one.  

I upgraded to the 5DIII in late January from the 7D and didn't even realize until I shot with the 5DIII that I had the habit of shooting multiple shots of a scene to get the one good one. Processing the files from the 5DIII I would toggle between the shots not able to tell one from the other...they were all good. With the 7D, it was pretty obvious which ones to keep and which to purge. I am very slowly training myself out of the habit with the 5DIII, but only taking 1 or 2 shots for a scene just doesn't feel right.


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## jrista (Aug 8, 2013)

docsmith said:


> Ha....I am not the only one.
> 
> I upgraded to the 5DIII in late January from the 7D and didn't even realize until I shot with the 5DIII that I had the habit of shooting multiple shots of a scene to get the one good one. Processing the files from the 5DIII I would toggle between the shots not able to tell one from the other...they were all good. With the 7D, it was pretty obvious which ones to keep and which to purge. I am very slowly training myself out of the habit with the 5DIII, but only taking 1 or 2 shots for a scene just doesn't feel right.



I'm glad to know I'm not the only one as well.  There were a few times when I wondered if I had a bad copy of the 7D. Can't wait to get my hands on the 5D III...with the bigger sensor and some careful sneak-technique, I can only imagine what it will do for the quality of my bird photography.


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2013)

docsmith said:


> Ha....I am not the only one.
> 
> I upgraded to the 5DIII in late January from the 7D and didn't even realize until I shot with the 5DIII that I had the habit of shooting multiple shots of a scene to get the one good one. Processing the files from the 5DIII I would toggle between the shots not able to tell one from the other...they were all good. With the 7D, it was pretty obvious which ones to keep and which to purge. I am very slowly training myself out of the habit with the 5DIII, but only taking 1 or 2 shots for a scene just doesn't feel right.



I've been saying this for some time. Getting the 1DX/5D3-style AF on a crop has huge value for existing 7D owners, esp. burst / servo shooters.

At first, a loooooot of people said that the 5D3 was not worth upgrading from a 5D2 at first for sensor/MP reasons. It just didn't seem different/better _enough_ at first glance. But AF (and, to be fair, lots of small upgrades like the 100% VF, dual cards, customizable buttons, headphone jack, etc.) was such an obvious improvement that it should have been an obvious call.

I think that the 7D camp will have a similar take once the 7D2 is announced, though the starting point for AF with the 7D is much better than the 5D2 was. But, in fairness, the 7D camp is madly demanding of their AF with their wildlife / sports pursuits.

- A


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## AlanF (Aug 8, 2013)

Jrista, I gave up waiting for the 7D II at the new year and have had 7 great months with the 5D III. As I wrote, I'll buy a 7D II if it is good but it is not worth hanging around for years or many months in expectation.


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## jrista (Aug 9, 2013)

AlanF said:


> Jrista, I gave up waiting for the 7D II at the new year and have had 7 great months with the 5D III. As I wrote, I'll buy a 7D II if it is good but it is not worth hanging around for years or many months in expectation.



I agree. The original rumors stated the 7D II was due in August, but as that is clearly not going to happen, I'm going to get a 5D III. I already have the 600/4 II, and I'll order the 2x TC along with the camera, and I should be set (and if I do end up deciding to get the 7D II, I can take my time and wait to buy at the most opportune time when it drops for a deep sale.)


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## docsmith (Aug 9, 2013)

AlanF said:


> Jrista, I gave up waiting for the 7D II at the new year and have had 7 great months with the 5D III. As I wrote, I'll buy a 7D II if it is good but it is not worth hanging around for years or many months in expectation.



Exactly what I did. I took advantage of the combo discount with the 24-105 that ended Feb 2. My only complaints:

The weight
I miss the range of the 7D with the 15-85
I am sometimes less comfortable walking around with $3,500 around my shoulders
Surprisingly infrequently, but sometimes I do miss the fps and reach

Other than that, it's been great to be shooting with the 5DIII.


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## Krob78 (Aug 9, 2013)

jrista said:


> AlanF said:
> 
> 
> > Jrista, I gave up waiting for the 7D II at the new year and have had 7 great months with the 5D III. As I wrote, I'll buy a 7D II if it is good but it is not worth hanging around for years or many months in expectation.
> ...


I think the rumor was originally that it would be "announced" in August or late fall. Hearing that, I knew it would be a 2014 release date at best, probably not till end of summer... I jumped on the 5D III instead right at last Christmas and held on to my 7d. 

Six months later I sold the 7d that I swore to keep forever and haven't looked back. The 5d3 is a phenomenal camera, you'll love it! ;D

And you're right, that's my plan too, if the Mk II is worthy, I can now wait for a year for the price to drop or take advantage of another Christmas sale for the 7D MkII in December of 2014!


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## RLPhoto (Aug 9, 2013)

10 FPS and 61pt AF. This will dominate the side lines. 8)


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## Orangutan (Aug 9, 2013)

dilbert said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > What I meant was that I think it's unlikely that they can lock down all the specs of the individual components a year or more in advance so that each component group (sensor, firmware, AF, physical controls, body) can have exact specs to work toward.
> ...


Components move from R to D at different rates. It would be a major marketing disadvantage to be unable to respond to market conditions, or to adjust components, for such a long time. Here's a video of teardown of a 5D2. It looks very modular to me. Canon 5D Mark II Camera Teardown and Rebuild



> Consider that the production line will need to be setup, inventory needs to be ordered, etc.


That seems clear enough. But I still believe they can't lock down all their specs a year before they set up the production lines and order inventory. Some components have longer lead times than others.


> You can't start writing the software until you know what the hardware platform (i.e CPU) that you are targeting is known.


It happens all the time for embedded systems using cross compilers and simulators. If they didn't write the basic software/firmware in advance they'd have no way to test prototypes. Also, it would be inefficient to write the firmware from scratch for each camera, though that would be a good question for the Magic Lantern folks (how similar is the code base between models). The "Digic" processors are not unique to each model: almost certainly they have some kind of common code base, even if it's just libraries. They'll add or tweak the code base to accommodate the new attributes and go from there. Much of the operation can be simulated using synthetic input data (mechanical features being a notable exception.)



> No, it doesn't work like that. There will be performance goals, sure, but they need to be delivered upon much earlier. Consider that the camera needs to go through a testing phase to ensure that it won't melt or otherwise self destruct as a result of the owner using it in (say) Death Valley in the middle of a summer's day at maximum fps.


Sure, but they can simulate some aspects of torture testing by adding some internal heat sources to the prototypes. For the sensor, I'd bet they can do a pretty good job of calculating the thermal characteristics from known engineering data.


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## tnargs (Aug 9, 2013)

AlanF said:


> The erratic AF is the worst feature of the 7D and I have the same habit of taking multiple shots to get one in focus. I still take too many on the 5D III, quite unnecessarily because of habit, as the focus is bang on every time. If the 7D II just has AF as good as on the 5D III and an upgrade in sensor noise, then I'll rush out and buy one.



I agree. If the new 7D has its viewfinder AF as CONSISTENTLY focused as the 5D Mark III, it would be the single best improvement. The lens rentals blog showed the 5D Mark III viewfinder focus is as consistent as live view, which is a lot better than the current 7D (or 5D Mark II).


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## greger (Aug 9, 2013)

This is an interesting post. The other 7Dll post is not dead yet and is at page 18. I wonder how many posts will be started
before there is something more realistic than these sporadic faint hope posts. We will all be shooting with full frame and
won't care when new crop cameras are released. I haven't tired of my gear yet to upgrade anything so will coast along
improving my pics and reading new posts that are informative.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 10, 2013)

Of course this entire source could be some random whatever. But "I asked about the video and was told that the new sensor can easily best the C100/500, but won't be allowed to." Nice. As soon as they realize they have something big they go an squander it. Maybe in the 5D3 video pipeline they actually DO apply a Gaussian blur at some stage. How else to explain why the RAW liveview feed is 10x crisper than even clean HDMI uncompressed out?


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## jrista (Aug 10, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Of course this entire source could be some random whatever. But "I asked about the video and was told that the new sensor can easily best the C100/500, but won't be allowed to." Nice. As soon as they realize they have something big they go an squander it. Maybe in the 5D3 video pipeline they actually DO apply a Gaussian blur at some stage. How else to explain why the RAW liveview feed is 10x crisper than even clean HDMI uncompressed out?



Aye...its very curious. The fact that ML managed RAW output, yet Canon decided to skip it, also speaks volumes in and of itself. Canon could be trouncing the entire market...I wonder why they don't.


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## GMCPhotographics (Aug 11, 2013)

I'm not that particularly thrilled with the 7DII leaked specs. I think it's a camera I'll pass on and stick to my 5DIII's. Iso ability at 2 stops below a 5DIII? Nah....Same DR as all the other current Canon chips....double Nah!


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## Snapper02 (Aug 12, 2013)

I'm sure Canon is looking closely at the feedback of the Semi and Pro community on the 70D tech. What I am looking for is an electronic viewfinder, ideally an On/Off scenario where the mirror could be locked up and an electronic viewfinder would allow for a constant view of the subject during rapid fire shooting. 10-12 fps is almost useless when you loose sight of the subject.
I'm not looking for these features in a full frame either, the 1.6 crop allows my 70-200 to be a lighter weight 320mm zoom and this is something Canon cannot make. Secondly I'm hand holding down to an 10th of a second for some shots and that is something you cannot do on a full frame.
I could go on but the point is that the tech is now here to do these things and my 7D is way over it's rated shutter count and I want a replacement. PLEASE!


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## jasonsim (Aug 14, 2013)

My two cents...I think Canon is being very cautious with a potential 7D successor, so that it will not cut into their 1Dx profits. If a 7D II has 10FPS and the same basic AF as the 1Dx/5D III, I can foresee many sports pros getting one and possibly ditching the 1Dx or those still using a 1D IV will skip over a 1Dx all together. The same might apply to the wildlife crowd. 

I know for myself, that if a 7D II is released with the same 5D III AF (sans the f/8AF) and 10FPS, I would seriously consider selling my 1Dx. There is very little that would keep me from selling the 1Dx and 'hopefully' pocketing some good chunk of change ($$). 

The only feature that might not make it to a 7D II are:

1. f/8 AF
2. AF point tied spot metering
3. 1D type body with larger battery and therefore faster AF on certain lenses like the 85mm f/1.2.
4. Slightly more weather sealing
5. Higher rated shutter life
6. The two programmable buttons

I might be missing some, but those are the ones that come to mind.

--Jason


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## whothafunk (Aug 14, 2013)

sure. because 7D2 will bring FF features to the table as well, *superior* ISO on par with 1dx and overall IQ. oh yea, we must not forget more rugged body and high shutter life count. AF as well..











bollocks.


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## dgatwood (Aug 15, 2013)

Snapper02 said:


> I'm sure Canon is looking closely at the feedback of the Semi and Pro community on the 70D tech. What I am looking for is an electronic viewfinder, ideally an On/Off scenario where the mirror could be locked up and an electronic viewfinder would allow for a constant view of the subject during rapid fire shooting. 10-12 fps is almost useless when you loose sight of the subject.



That's exactly what live view on a DSLR already does. What's the benefit of an EVF when you already have a perfectly good rear screen? Also, if you have an EVF, you don't have a mirror, hence the reason we call those mirrorless cameras.


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## schill (Aug 15, 2013)

dgatwood said:


> Snapper02 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure Canon is looking closely at the feedback of the Semi and Pro community on the 70D tech. What I am looking for is an electronic viewfinder, ideally an On/Off scenario where the mirror could be locked up and an electronic viewfinder would allow for a constant view of the subject during rapid fire shooting. 10-12 fps is almost useless when you loose sight of the subject.
> ...



A view finder, OVF or EVF, is much easier to use in bright sunlight and for many people having a camera "stuck" to your face is a lot more stable than out at arms length. There are real benefits to either of these over the back LCD.

The quoted post talks about sliding/rotating a display into the OVF light path when you want EVF capabilities. This would potentially give you the best of both worlds in a single camera. OVF when you want it, EVF when you want it. I've been thinking about this myself. I doubt there are any technical reasons why this could not be done. Squeezing it in to a current body design and making it cost effective might stand in the way.


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## GMCPhotographics (Aug 15, 2013)

jasonsim said:


> My two cents...I think Canon is being very cautious with a potential 7D successor, so that it will not cut into their 1Dx profits. If a 7D II has 10FPS and the same basic AF as the 1Dx/5D III, I can foresee many sports pros getting one and possibly ditching the 1Dx or those still using a 1D IV will skip over a 1Dx all together. The same might apply to the wildlife crowd.
> 
> I know for myself, that if a 7D II is released with the same 5D III AF (sans the f/8AF) and 10FPS, I would seriously consider selling my 1Dx. There is very little that would keep me from selling the 1Dx and 'hopefully' pocketing some good chunk of change ($$).
> 
> ...



Yep, that'll be about it Jason...although I seriously doubt that the per pixel quality of a 7DII will be anywhere near that of a 1Dx or even a 5DIII. The files from the old 7D are the real weak point of the current camera and the high ISO ability is almost embarrassing in a modern context. Sure the 7DII can improve, but the recent 70D results weren't anything particularly impressive.


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## pedro (Aug 17, 2013)

*Slightly different spec's form NL yesterday:*

Some suggestions of a 20MP or 24MP 7D2 [CW]
*~24MP sensor with Dual Pixel CMOS AF*
Auto-Focus system similar to the EOS 5D Mark III (61 points)
High frame rate, 10-12 fps
“high grade” weather sealing, like Canon’s professional DSLRs
Dual Digic V+ processor
Single card slot
WiFi & GPS
Innovative video features
Price around $2000
Very good ISO performance
Looks to be broadly similar to what's been doing the rounds of late, although thats mostly been assuming a derivative of Canon's new 20MP dual pixel design.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_7dmk2.html

Just hope, Canon remain at their 20-22 MP concerning the 5Ds...


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## candyman (Aug 17, 2013)

pedro said:


> *Slightly different spec's form NL yesterday:*
> 
> Some suggestions of a 20MP or 24MP 7D2 [CW]
> *~24MP sensor with Dual Pixel CMOS AF*
> ...




Looking at it again....that is an impressive improvement for a price around 2000 dollar


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## Don Haines (Aug 17, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> whothafunk said:
> 
> 
> > sure. because 7D2 will bring FF features to the table as well, *superior* ISO on par with 1dx and overall IQ. oh yea, we must not forget more rugged body and high shutter life count. AF as well..
> ...



If they dropped the number of megapixels down to 5 or 6, they could have SUPERIOR ISO performance to the 1DX... but we can all guess how likely that is  With the same level of technology FF will always have 1 1/3 stops advantage over APS-C. Keep in mind the marketing people talk about Jpeg images.... I have no problems that an out-of-camera Jpeg from a brand new design with newer algorithms and more computing power (7D2) will get close to that of an older design, like a 2 year old 1DX (and it will be two years old or more by the time a 7D2 is released). BUT!!!! Take the RAW image from the 1DX and process it like the 7D2 RAW image, and your stop or so FF advantage is back. Even if they came out with great advances in technology that moved the 7D2 to 1 stop (or the almost impossible 2/3 stop) away from the 1DX, by the time the 1DX2 comes out, that same technology would restore the 1 1/3 stop advantage of FF, or if more advances have been made, make the gap wider.

And as far as shutter count life goes, don't forget that an APS-C shutter is smaller and lighter than a FF shutter. If all else was equal, it should be faster and last longer than an equivalently built FF shutter..... so yes, I CAN believe an 7D shutter that lasts as long as a 1DX shutter.

Weatherproofing? The only competition the 7D has in the Canon lineup is the 1DX, so having a 7D2 come close to a 1DX is reasonable.

FPS? The 60D and the 5D2 came out around the same time.... guess which one had more FPS? Heck, the 60D at 5.9 is almost as good as a 5D3 at 6.0....


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## whothafunk (Aug 17, 2013)

60D has 5.3 FPS, but I understand. doesnt the 5D3 offer same or better weather proofing as the 7D?

and i am surprised how well 7D's RAW images look, even up to 6400 ISO in comparison with the "beta" 70D.


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## whothafunk (Aug 17, 2013)

7D's JPEGs are awful though for today's standards.


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## jrista (Aug 19, 2013)

I am pleased to see that the 70D has improved in sharpness relative to the 7D. The 7D did always have soft JPEG output. It also has an AA filter that actually does the job it was tasked to do...eliminate moire. I would be curious to know how much moire the 70D has, and if it is a worthwhile cost to the improvement in sharpness.

If sensors of modern pixel pitches resolved enough spatial resolution to avoid color moire, then weakening the AA filter would be fine. But Canon keeps updating their lenses to resolve more than their latest sensors...so AA filters are still needed. Personally I am not a real fan of an overly weak AA filter, and particularly not of eliminating the AA filter at all (at least, not unless it is just an option...some types of photography definitely benefit from the lack of an AA filter.) 

I do have to say, though...those crop cameras don't compare to that really clean low-noise output of the FF 6D. If I had seven grand I thought I could part with, I'd buy a 1D X in a heartbeat. 



whothafunk said:


> 60D has 5.3 FPS, but I understand. doesnt the 5D3 offer same or better weather proofing as the 7D?
> 
> and i am surprised how well 7D's RAW images look, even up to 6400 ISO in comparison with the "beta" 70D.


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## Pi (Aug 19, 2013)

jrista said:


> It also has an AA filter that actually does the job it was tasked to do...eliminate moire.



To be more precise, the Anti-aliasing filter is designed to eliminate ... aliasing. Moire, color or not, is s special case of aliasing. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliasing


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## pedro (Aug 19, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> If they dropped the number of megapixels down to 5 or 6, they could have SUPERIOR ISO performance to the 1DX... but we can all guess how likely that is  With the same level of technology FF will always have 1 1/3 stops advantage over APS-C. Keep in mind the marketing people talk about Jpeg images.... I have no problems that an out-of-camera Jpeg from a brand new design with newer algorithms and more computing power (7D2) will get close to that of an older design, like a 2 year old 1DX (and it will be two years old or more by the time a 7D2 is released). BUT!!!! Take the RAW image from the 1DX and process it like the 7D2 RAW image, and your stop or so FF advantage is back. Even if they came out with great advances in technology that moved the 7D2 to 1 stop (or the almost impossible 2/3 stop) away from the 1DX, by the time the 1DX2 comes out, that same technology would restore the 1 1/3 stop advantage of FF, or if more advances have been made, make the gap wider.
> 
> And as far as shutter count life goes, don't forget that an APS-C shutter is smaller and lighter than a FF shutter. If all else was equal, it should be faster and last longer than an equivalently built FF shutter..... so yes, I CAN believe an 7D shutter that lasts as long as a 1DX shutter.
> 
> ...



So I just hope, Canon keep the MPs of their 5Ds in the 22 MP range or might they switch to 24 MP with the next body? Looking forward to 25kish ISO 51200, or 12.8 to 16kish ISO 51.200 in the 5DV 8)


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## tnargs (Aug 19, 2013)

Oh look ma, the pixel peepers are back. Serious photographers can leave now.


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## pedro (Aug 19, 2013)

tnargs said:


> Oh look ma, the pixel peepers are back. Serious photographers can leave now.



*@tnargs:* not pickle peepin at all, mate. as it is clear that less megapickels are crucial for high ISO IQ. look at my flickr and you know what I mean. That's among others a certain factor which puts the 1Dx above the 5DIII in high ISO IQ.


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## RGF (Aug 19, 2013)

I'dtake low MP and higher ISO. Mini 1Dx would be ideal, but I think that would be a different camera and a much higher price pt


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## jrista (Aug 19, 2013)

Pi said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > It also has an AA filter that actually does the job it was tasked to do...eliminate moire.
> ...



True, however aliasing in all its forms is not always a severe issue. Color moire, on the other hand, and moire in general, is a pretty severe problem with no real easy post-processing solution outside of manual correction on a per-instance basis...and even then, the solutions are not great. To take one of your own examples, the photo of the girl with a Foveon...I thought that photo was crisply sharp. It was aliased in a couple places, however it where aliasing occurred, it did not look any significantly worse than the kind of aliasing you get with the D800 in similar circumstances. A photo of a bird with moire, or a photo of a person with moire in the fabric of their clothing, etc. are pretty horrible problems that cannot really be fixed.


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## Pi (Aug 19, 2013)

jrista said:


> True, however aliasing in all its forms is not always a severe issue. Color moire, on the other hand, and moire in general, is a pretty severe problem with no real easy post-processing solution outside of manual correction on a per-instance basis...and even then, the solutions are not great. To take one of your own examples, the photo of the girl with a Foveon...I thought that photo was crisply sharp. It was aliased in a couple places, however it where aliasing occurred, it did not look any significantly worse than the kind of aliasing you get with the D800 in similar circumstances. A photo of a bird with moire, or a photo of a person with moire in the fabric of their clothing, etc. are pretty horrible problems that cannot really be fixed.



Aliasing cannot "be fixed", moire or not (it is a theorem). For example, the Sigma photo I posted is ruined. Who likes what is a matter of personal preference. Some like aliased images, some do not. But when you don't, you cannot "fix" them.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 19, 2013)

Pi said:


> Aliasing cannot "be fixed", moire or not (it is a theorem). For example, the Sigma photo I posted is ruined. Who likes what is a matter of personal preference. Some like aliased images, some do not. But when you don't, you cannot "fix" them.



Sure you can...


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## jrista (Aug 19, 2013)

Pi said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > True, however aliasing in all its forms is not always a severe issue. Color moire, on the other hand, and moire in general, is a pretty severe problem with no real easy post-processing solution outside of manual correction on a per-instance basis...and even then, the solutions are not great. To take one of your own examples, the photo of the girl with a Foveon...I thought that photo was crisply sharp. It was aliased in a couple places, however it where aliasing occurred, it did not look any significantly worse than the kind of aliasing you get with the D800 in similar circumstances. A photo of a bird with moire, or a photo of a person with moire in the fabric of their clothing, etc. are pretty horrible problems that cannot really be fixed.
> ...



I'm guessing you have never used LR4's moire removal brush....


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## jrista (Aug 19, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > tnargs said:
> ...



The gain used is determined by the bit depth and native full well capacity of the pixel. The 1D X, quite literally and factually, has a higher FWC of around 90,000e- BECAUSE it has large pixels. If you compare an 18mp APS-C with the 18mp FF 1D X sensor, for identically framed shots (or to use Pi's very accurate term, "equivalent" shots), the 1D X will trounce the 18mp APS-C sensor. Doesn't matter who makes it, on an equivalent basis, for identical detail, the 1D X will have several stops less noise.

Conversely, in a focal length limited scenario, the APS-C will indeed capture more detail than the 1D X. At identical subject distances, crop the 1D X and downscale the APS-C to the same image dimensions, and the APS-C will have more, sharper detail. One could also use a higher resolution FF sensor and crop to achieve reach. All of these are different usage scenarios.

So it is *not *a myth. It depends on what your goals are. In reach-limited scenarios, higher pixel density is definitely important. One could also use a high density FF sensor and downscale it to the same image dimensions as the 1D X, and get sharper results with less noise (although not necessarily as low as the 1D X). It all depends on your goals, though. If you need to print large, it is unlikely you are going to downscale your FF image such that it has the same noise as the 1D X...so the argument that a high resolution sensor is no different than a low resolution sensor is just as much a "myth".



ankorwatt said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Pi said:
> ...



Sure you do. Doesn't matter if you use an OLPF or a post-process moire removal brush. That wasn't my point, though...my point was that there ARE ways of dealing with aliasing and moire in post. It is not ideal, the results are not perfect, but neither is it impossible. 

Again...depends on your goals. A D800E, or preferably something similar from Canon, would always be my choice for landscapes. I wouldn't use such a camera for birds or anything else prone to moire. I would take a 1D X any day for night sky photography, high speed action where I can get close, etc. I'd probably take a 5D III for everything else. It all depends, man.


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## Pi (Aug 20, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Pi said:
> 
> 
> > Aliasing cannot "be fixed", moire or not (it is a theorem). For example, the Sigma photo I posted is ruined. Who likes what is a matter of personal preference. Some like aliased images, some do not. But when you don't, you cannot "fix" them.
> ...



I would put double quotes on "fix" for that.


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## Pi (Aug 20, 2013)

jrista said:


> Pi said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Fix this:






You can blur it but you cannot restore anything close to a properly sampled image.


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## scottkinfw (Aug 20, 2013)

There is that.



neuroanatomist said:


> Pi said:
> 
> 
> > Aliasing cannot "be fixed", moire or not (it is a theorem). For example, the Sigma photo I posted is ruined. Who likes what is a matter of personal preference. Some like aliased images, some do not. But when you don't, you cannot "fix" them.
> ...


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## Pi (Aug 20, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> I beg your pardon? I could give you advice on various techniques to improve the image, but what an attitude. Besides, you should remove the biggest issues first, that image has been heavily processed and that processing has almost certainly made the problem much worse and as a small jpeg much information needed to work with has been thrown away.



It does not matter, it is aliasing. 

Anyway, here is aliasing produced by the mighty Pentax 645D:






The RAW is here: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/645D/645DhSLI0100_NR_OFF.DNG.HTM. You are not going to get a better source. Try the LR moire tool and tell me how it works.


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## Don Haines (Aug 20, 2013)

Pi said:


> Fix this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't believe you guys! Some poor farmer spent months to paint that pattern on the silos and you want to remove it? shame shame shame...


Actually, the moire is so bad that it's beautiful.


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## jrista (Aug 21, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > ankorwatt said:
> ...



Q.E. is the ratio of photon strikes to electrons released. In other words, it could be considered the rate of conversion of photons to electronic charge. A higher rate does allow a lower gain...but you really need a much higher rate for it to be more meaningful than much larger pixel area. Yes, Q.E. does matter, but the amount of charge that can be held, at ANY ISO (since ISO is really just reducing maximum charge by a factor of two each stop), is fundamentally dependent upon the total surface area of each pixel.

According to sensorgen, at ISO 6400 the 1D X has a saturation charge of 1516e-, vs. the 5D III's 1079e-. That means the 1D X, DESPITE its lower Q.E., is quite literally more sensitive to light than the 5D III. As a matter of fact, it is approximately 40% more efficient. That clearly indicates that the difference in pixel area is a more important factor than a 2% difference in Q.E. You can't forget about the CFA strength either. Both the 1D X and 5D III employ a "weaker" CFA, which also has the effect of increasing sensitivity at high ISO. 

Quibbling about a 2% difference in Q.E. is largely meaningless when you actually run the numbers. When the difference in Q.E. is 10%, 20%, 35%, then we can debate the merits of a higher Q.E. in a sensor with smaller pixels. 

An interesting article on gain, Q.E., pixel area and ISO can be found at Roger Clark's site here. Roger created the concept of "Unity Gain" as a way to compare the real-world sensitivity of cameras by factoring Q.E., pixel area and CFA transmission together, as all three affect real-world sensitivity to light.


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## Pi (Aug 21, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> *QE is what counts* when we are discussing high iso results and comparing 5dmk3 and 1dx, among many other factors as raw handling, electronic, read-out noise etc etc so there are no misconceptions



As simple as that (but I would still use punctuation  ). I gave up, I hope you will succeed.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 21, 2013)

Get Mikael, PBD, Jrista and Pi in one place with a technical discussion... Time to bust out the popcorn. Someone's going to get corrected. 8)


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## Ruined (Aug 22, 2013)

Who wants to bet they will add a headphones jack and articulting screen to the 7D to make it a full video oriented camera? Would be a smart move IMO (in addition to the other features for wildlife/sports photographers)...


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