# CANON 5DS REVIEW BY FERNANDO GUERRA



## surapon (Mar 27, 2015)

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/yourspace/newsletter/newsletter_march_4_15.do?utm_source=newsletter_march_4_15&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter

Enjoy.
Surapon


----------



## old-pr-pix (Mar 27, 2015)

Interesting, thanks, Surapon. His negative comments about medium format implied he was totally unaware of the Pentax 645Z; but, I guess that's understandable. A quick check of tilt-shift lenses for 645Z implies Pentax never thought of using the 645Z for architectural work. There is an absolute dearth of workable lenses. Even Schneider doesn't seem to offer a T/S in Pentax 645 mount. (Pentax does have T/S for some of their other mounts.) 

So, for now, the 5DS is looking good. Have you decided whether or not to go with the AA filter version?


----------



## sanj (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks Surapon for the post. I hope all he is saying is true. I would be delighted if it was true. But as of now this sounds too much like a commercial:

"After the original 5D, the Mark II was a big step and the Mark III was another huge step." Huge step?? Huge??

"...the JPEGs were really quite good… maybe good enough that you don’t have to open the RAW files." Hahahaha. A professional of that level who will certainly have to adjust blacks and whites in the kind of photos he takes, can afford not to shoot in RAW??

"It’s very fast and we can shoot ISO 3200 with no problem at all; even [up to] 6400.” No problem at ISO 6400 in 5ds? Really??

"I was trying it with my computers and there was no slowing down at all." 50mp will not show his computer down at all? ' At all'?


----------



## Ph0t0 (Mar 27, 2015)

old-pr-pix said:


> A quick check of tilt-shift lenses for 645Z implies Pentax never thought of using the 645Z for architectural work. There is an absolute dearth of workable lenses. Even Schneider doesn't seem to offer a T/S in Pentax 645 mount.


+1
I totally agree. 
There are a lot of people saying how the 645Z is a great landscape camera that are completely ignoring the lack of wide and TS lenses. 
I'm a landscape photographer and I mostly work in the mountains and print large. So the detail that 645Z provides would be great, but I also do most of my work with 17mm TS-E and 24mm TS-E II when shooting closer to the roads. And 14mm 2,8 and 16-35mm f4 when I'm higher in the mountains and need to travel light. I'm sorry to say that Pentax doesn't offer any lenses equivalent to these. And for the me, not being able to go wider than 22mm (35mm equivalent) or not be able to use TS is a deal breaker.
So I'm really looking forward to getting the 5DSr and the new 11-24mm.


----------



## tinkertinker (Mar 27, 2015)

old-pr-pix said:


> Interesting, thanks, Surapon. His negative comments about medium format implied he was totally unaware of the Pentax 645Z; but, I guess that's understandable. A quick check of tilt-shift lenses for 645Z implies Pentax never thought of using the 645Z for architectural work. There is an absolute dearth of workable lenses. Even Schneider doesn't seem to offer a T/S in Pentax 645 mount. (Pentax does have T/S for some of their other mounts.)
> 
> So, for now, the 5DS is looking good. Have you decided whether or not to go with the AA filter version?




"His negative comments about medium format implied he was totally unaware of the Pentax 645Z?" 
?? 
i don´t think so. it´s just:
the PENTAX 645z is the less attractive MF-system for a architectural photographers; small sensor, no T/S-lenses, no lenses at all (only the discontinued 24mm- which is effectively also long too)

pentax and hasselblads are for portrait and studio photographers!

linhof, arca, sinar, alpa are amazing view-camera-systems
but heavy, slow, and for some.. expensive.

thanx surapon for the post.

sanj: I was wondering (a little disappointed) too as he mentioned the markIII was a HUGE step.....


----------



## surapon (Mar 27, 2015)

Dear Friends.
Thank you so much to reply and comments the article of Mr. Fernando Guerra---Sorry, I can not comment of The big sensor of Medium Format camera, Because I never use one of DSLR---Yes, I use to use Film Camera 120 before , that about 1,000 years ago.
Yes, I already place the order of 5DS = $ 3699 US Dollars + The Battery Grip of 5D MK III = $ 250 US Dollars for this beautiful Monster 50 MP.
But If Canon Make 1DS XX = 50 MP, I will buy her too, Because I love the Handle of 1DS Body in all weather.
Have a great Weekend, Sir.
Surapon


----------



## lilmsmaggie (Mar 27, 2015)

Uh, I beg to differ on the heavy and slow reference to large format unless you're referring to 8X10 and ULF cameras. A 4x5 view camera is light and versatile. Maybe something like the Ebony SW23 or a Chamonix 045n-2. I owned the later. The Chamonix i's built using carbon fiber and wood, weighs less than my 5D MK II. 

Fast? For landscape work, shouldn't you be taking your time anyway. Yeah, windy conditions could be a problem with the dark cloth but you can't beat LF for movement versatility. You can get digital backs, scanning backs (yeah, getting very expensive) and adapters for DSLR's, or you can DIY

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/canon-view-camera.html


Just say'n




tinkertinker said:


> old-pr-pix said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting, thanks, Surapon. His negative comments about medium format implied he was totally unaware of the Pentax 645Z; but, I guess that's understandable. A quick check of tilt-shift lenses for 645Z implies Pentax never thought of using the 645Z for architectural work. There is an absolute dearth of workable lenses. Even Schneider doesn't seem to offer a T/S in Pentax 645 mount. (Pentax does have T/S for some of their other mounts.)
> ...


----------



## Frodo (Mar 27, 2015)

sanj said:


> Thanks Surapon for the post. I hope all he is saying is true. I would be delighted if it was true. But as of now this sounds too much like a commercial:
> 
> "After the original 5D, the Mark II was a big step and the Mark III was another huge step." Huge step?? Huge??
> 
> ...



Yes, read more like a commercial. Completely agree with the comment about jpegs. As well as:
"I don’t use a tripod a lot."
Well, you will not get the maximum sharpness of that sensor without a tripod when shooting at dusk, in interiors at low ISO.

I'd like more critical evaluation on a "professional" network.


----------



## Click (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks for posting Mr Surapon. Very interesting.


----------



## msm (Mar 27, 2015)

sanj said:


> But as of now this sounds too much like a commercial



Isn't that the entire purpose of the explorer of light project? Canon has a big well polished marketing department working hard to worsen your and others' G.A.S.

Though sometimes they seem to step on some brown matter:
http://www.canonwatch.com/little-bit-canon-see-impossible-humor/


----------



## mustafa (Mar 27, 2015)

Frodo said:


> Yes, read more like a commercial. Completely agree with the comment about jpegs. As well as:
> "I don’t use a tripod a lot."
> Well, you will not get the maximum sharpness of that sensor without a tripod when shooting at dusk, in interiors at low ISO.


Looks like he should invest in a cable release, too.


----------



## tinkertinker (Mar 27, 2015)

lilmsmaggie said:


> Uh, I beg to differ on the heavy and slow reference to large format unless you're referring to 8X10 and ULF cameras. A 4x5 view camera is light and versatile. Maybe something like the Ebony SW23 or a Chamonix 045n-2. I owned the later. The Chamonix i's built using carbon fiber and wood, weighs less than my 5D MK II.
> 
> Fast? For landscape work, shouldn't you be taking your time anyway. Yeah, windy conditions could be a problem with the dark cloth but you can't beat LF for movement versatility. You can get digital backs, scanning backs (yeah, getting very expensive) and adapters for DSLR's, or you can DIY
> 
> ...




hi lilmsmaggie,
yes I´m absolutely on your side;
it´s so wonderful working with a view-camera under the black cloth!
and your Chamonix 045n-2 is an absolute beauty!
but for daily hard work it´s far more productive working with a DSLR,
a geared head and a bubble level, and some TS-e lenses.
the tse17 was the reason why I dropped my sonar f2 
(again, I think of satisfying customers)


----------



## Zeidora (Mar 27, 2015)

I agree that going beyond TS-E lenses, LF is the answer, not MF. I shoot with Arca 4x5" and frequently have movement in two front axes, occasionally even all three. And then there is the option for back movements as well. The creative possibilities and optical adjustment options go WAY beyond SLR/MF.

Re speed, I can get a snapshot with basic set-up mounted in about 3-5 minutes. When starting out of backpack on a flashed macro shot, it takes 30-45 minutes for set-up. Keeper rate is by far higher than with even the most careful SLR shots.

I have the 5dsr with battery grip on order.


----------



## lilmsmaggie (Mar 27, 2015)

Agree 



tinkertinker said:


> but for daily hard work it´s far more productive working with a DSLR,
> a geared head and a bubble level, and some TS-e lenses.
> the tse17 was the reason why I dropped my sonar f2
> (again, I think of satisfying customers)


----------



## ecqns (Mar 27, 2015)

As a working architectural photographer I find many things in this "article" that cause me to doubt it's usefulness. 

- using iso 3200 & 6400
- not using a tripod all the time 
- shooting & delivering jpgs to clients 
- shooting with a crop ratio applied 

These and other images online I've seen from same photographer are not at the level my clients expect. 
I mean if canon pays me and gives me a camera I'd say what they want but there's nothing here that relates to professional architectural photography.


----------



## keithcooper (Mar 28, 2015)

*Re: CANON 5DS "REVIEW" BY FERNANDO GUERRA*

As another 'working architectural photographer' I also read this with interest... ;-)

I don't have a problem with using higher than base ISO settings and sometimes don't use a tripod - it depends on what you're shooting and what's needed. Not all architectural work is standing around producing giant files, and I've long disliked tripods for my landscapes (never bought into the 'slowness' argument). So, I'd strongly identify with much of what's said...

Not convinced I'd be inclined to send jpegs out of the camera, but the real bit that seemed to come directly from marketing was the stuff about crop modes - which seem to be predicated on using DPP (OK you do need it for pre-production cameras)

I use the TS-E17 and 24 a lot, but if I want something longer I can use a 1.4x TC with not a lot of loss of quality, or even one of my M645 lenses with a shift adapter. 

So, it's interesting to see how the marketing department has spun this one. Looking forward to trying it myself -)

BTW Thanks for the mention of my home-brew Canon/5x4 adapter, but it really was just an experiment to play with movements. The mirror box gets in the way too easily, and I can't use it with short enough focal length lenses for my liking. 
Still, enough to remind me that LF and film have no real part in my actual business ;-)


----------



## keithcooper (Mar 29, 2015)

dilbert said:


> I wonder how long it will be before people talk using words like his to describe moving from FF DSLRs to other, smaller, formats.


Depends on what's being sold ;-)

I've given interviews in the past and seen some of my words morph to bring them more 'on message'. Not always an issue, but definitely something I watch for if my name is going to be mentioned.

In this case, it's only really the crop use that doesn't ring true for me.


----------



## erjlphoto (Mar 30, 2015)

Fernando,

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Looks like Canon had photographers like you in mind with the 5s.
From the pictures posted, I like your work very much.

Good Shooting!


----------



## Diltiazem (Mar 31, 2015)

"_ I was looking at those books for details, of course, but also I had all the detail I wanted in the shadows, so I was getting things [in the pictures] that I don’t get with the Mark III. That, for me, was huge because you can have a lot more leeway._"

Better DR than 5DIII ?


----------



## NancyP (Mar 31, 2015)

Hey Keith, that looked like a fun experiment! The "use a MF lens with TS adapter" would seem more applicable, and might be interesting for those who have MF lenses gathering dust in their storage, but if you don't have MF lenses or need really wide TS, why bother with adapters when Canon has made good equipment already?


----------



## ecqns (Mar 31, 2015)

In this article and other marketing materials by Canon I am dumbfounded by the quality of the samples they use to feature these cameras. I really wonder how these decisions are made. Even recently I saw much more interesting and technically appropriate samples from the new Sony 35mm Zeiss lens. 

And from an architectural point of view I'd say 90% of images are made on a tripod. Quick details or documentation don't need to be on a tripod but just about everything else is.


----------



## keithcooper (Mar 31, 2015)

NancyP said:


> Hey Keith, that looked like a fun experiment! The "use a MF lens with TS adapter" would seem more applicable, and might be interesting for those who have MF lenses gathering dust in their storage, but if you don't have MF lenses or need really wide TS, why bother with adapters when Canon has made good equipment already?



I do have a set of M645 lenses that I use with a shift adapter, but I've found I don't have enough use for shifted longer focal lengths to buy new ones ;-) Although, if they do actually update the TS-E45, I might well get one, since the quality is likely to be very high.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/lenses/m645-shift.html

Tilt is a somewhat different matter - it's not something I make much use of at the wider end (maybe sometimes to photograph walls/ceilings/floors).


----------



## keithcooper (Mar 31, 2015)

ecqns said:


> ... And from an architectural point of view I'd say 90% of images are made on a tripod. Quick details or documentation don't need to be on a tripod but just about everything else is.


Completely agree - I may dislike using tripods for landscape, but for -paying- architectural work it's likewise 90%+

That said, I feel that learning to use a shift lens hand-held has worked wonders for my visual perception of verticals and composition ... YMMV ;-)


----------



## ecqns (Mar 31, 2015)

keithcooper said:


> That said, I feel that learning to use a shift lens hand-held has worked wonders for my visual perception of verticals and composition ... YMMV ;-)



I started photography using large format mostly so when I shoot landscapes I personally get better results working slow. When I shoot quickly I don't like what I get as much as when I use a tripod and work more deliberately. But I do shoot street/landscapes with the 45mm TS-E handheld too and like what I get using tilt for selective selective focus. 

But for architecture I work with slow shutter speeds so its usually a tripod and I'm fine with that.


----------



## keithcooper (Mar 31, 2015)

ecqns said:


> keithcooper said:
> 
> 
> > That said, I feel that learning to use a shift lens hand-held has worked wonders for my visual perception of verticals and composition ... YMMV ;-)
> ...


Yes, likewise for the architectural work.

I've heard of the 'more deliberate' thing for landscape for a long while but whenever I've tried it, it just irritated me more than helped... :-(

I guess it's because unless I'm waiting for light, all my favourite (daylight) work has had an element of immediacy. Almost like street photography, but on a 'bigger scale'.

I realise that's not the received wisdom in this area, but never mind ;-)


----------



## Dig_it (Apr 2, 2015)

ecqns said:


> As a working architectural photographer I find many things in this "article" that cause me to doubt it's usefulness.
> 
> - using iso 3200 & 6400
> - not using a tripod all the time
> ...



This is a good discussion!

Also, as a working architectural photographer, I agree with some of your comments, however IMHO Fernando Guerra is a phenomenally talented and prolific architectural photographer whose work complements beautifully the work of contemporary Portuguese and Spanish architects. He is at least in same class as Iwan Baan and Helene Binet, and one of the world's very best.

That aside -

His jpeg comment is disingenuous - I couldn't imagine a professional using jpeg only except for the most quick and dirty jobs (storage is so cheap, why restrict yourself?). By his own admission he works quickly and doesn't always nail the exposure so it would seem quite restrictive to only shoot jpeg. White balance correction is also an important part of post production and while in theory you could dial in the correct WB each time, I can't see this happening. It's just one extra parameter to worry about while shooting and very difficult to balance the colour on a series of shots after the fact with JPEG.

Shooting without tripod is indeed possible in many circumstances with negligible penalty however every thing has its time and place - I doubt he would shoot handheld after dusk or in a very low light interior. 

I think composing with crop mode might come in handy sometimes, but again for flexibility it would be better to capture the shot in full resolution, even if just to give some breathing room for framing once the image has been straightened etc. (which undoubtedly is almost always needed when shooting architecture handheld).

There is an application for ISO 3200 or 6400 for architecture, albeit somewhat limited - aerial photography most notably at night, or possibly other low light photography where it is desirable to freeze the motion of people etc. This is a strong point of FG's work - you can see many instances of low light with non-blurry people (I don't think they are necessarily standing perfectly still!).


----------



## ecqns (Apr 2, 2015)

Dig_it said:


> however IMHO Fernando Guerra is a phenomenally talented and prolific architectural photographer whose work complements beautifully the work of contemporary Portuguese and Spanish architects. He is at least in same class as Iwan Baan and Helene Binet, and one of the world's very best



I don't know about that. I've seen work from those mentioned and wondered if they could have shot on a day with better light or been more interesting in post production. I think travel schedules for some of the big time people could be an issue. About the article - I saw samples that were much less precise than what I've come to expect and produce in my market.


----------



## StudentOfLight (Apr 3, 2015)

keithcooper said:


> ecqns said:
> 
> 
> > ... And from an architectural point of view I'd say 90% of images are made on a tripod. Quick details or documentation don't need to be on a tripod but just about everything else is.
> ...


+1 & +1 = +2


----------



## StudentOfLight (Apr 3, 2015)

ecqns said:


> Dig_it said:
> 
> 
> > however IMHO Fernando Guerra is a phenomenally talented and prolific architectural photographer whose work complements beautifully the work of contemporary Portuguese and Spanish architects. He is at least in same class as Iwan Baan and Helene Binet, and one of the world's very best
> ...


I'd be interested to see some of your work. Could you share a link to your portfolio? Do you blog about some of your images? I'm interested in the thought process when creating an image.

I mainly shoot events/portraiture and I've only shot RE/architecture/interiors casually, but am looking to develop my skills. At the moment I'm predominantly using the 16-35mm, 24mm lenses and 8mm fisheye for interiors.

Best regards,
O


----------



## sanj (Apr 3, 2015)

*Re: CANON 5DS "REVIEW" BY FERNANDO GUERRA*



keithcooper said:


> As another 'working architectural photographer' I also read this with interest... ;-)
> 
> I don't have a problem with using higher than base ISO settings and sometimes don't use a tripod - it depends on what you're shooting and what's needed. Not all architectural work is standing around producing giant files, and I've long disliked tripods for my landscapes (never bought into the 'slowness' argument). So, I'd strongly identify with much of what's said...
> 
> ...



How different you and I are in these points. Totally opposite! Perhaps I do not have your experience and am too insecure.


----------



## keithcooper (Apr 3, 2015)

*Re: CANON 5DS "REVIEW" BY FERNANDO GUERRA*



sanj said:


> keithcooper said:
> 
> 
> > As another 'working architectural photographer' I also read this with interest... ;-)
> ...



Perhaps a different collection of experience, but the landscape thing comes partly from how I see them and the light.

There is a look at some of my ways at looking at a scene (and time taken) in an article I wrote about the making of a print, right from driving along and deciding I liked the view (yes, sometimes my 'deeper meaning' really is that simple ;-)

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/photo-tips/making_a_picture.html

I know the approach won't suit everyone, but I like it ;-)


----------



## sanj (Apr 3, 2015)

*Re: CANON 5DS "REVIEW" BY FERNANDO GUERRA*



keithcooper said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > keithcooper said:
> ...



Thank you. Lovely picture. In bright light I would not use a tripod (but would opt for a lens with IS). When light is low, I would whenever can use a tripod. That helps me get small aperture and low ISO.


----------



## benperrin (Apr 5, 2015)

Unfortunately this was more of a commercial than a review. Still waiting on a price in Australia. I'm wanting to make a pre-order on the R version but no one will tell me their price.


----------



## ecqns (Apr 8, 2015)

*Re: CANON 5DS "REVIEW" BY FERNANDO GUERRA*



keithcooper said:


> I use the TS-E17 and 24 a lot, but if I want something longer I can use a 1.4x TC with not a lot of loss of quality,



Hi Keith,

You mention using the 1.4xTC - do you find that it gives good results? I bought a Contax 35mm PC - I guess I should rent a TC and see which is better. I do like the 24mm ergonomics much better than the Contax.


----------



## ReTake (Jun 3, 2015)

I'm surprised that he didn't comment on the only 5 fps shooting rate. I'm going to talk about that in a review I'll post shortly after shooting with it for a couple of days last week.


----------



## ecqns (Jun 4, 2015)

ReTake said:


> I'm surprised that he didn't comment on the only 5 fps shooting rate. I'm going to talk about that in a review I'll post shortly after shooting with it for a couple of days last week.


But what does fps have to do with architectural photography? Could be 1 fps and it would be fine. 
BTW for the last few months I've been shooting jobs with the a7r and it's by far the best camera I've used for architecture. I don't think I'll go back to a Canon body even if they improve the DR. The Sony has many other little features that make shooting architecture so much easier - plus the sensor recovery is unbelievable.


----------



## ReTake (Jun 4, 2015)

ecqns said:


> ReTake said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised that he didn't comment on the only 5 fps shooting rate. I'm going to talk about that in a review I'll post shortly after shooting with it for a couple of days last week.
> ...



FPS doesn't have anything to do with architectural photography, but it was a review of the 5DS, not a review of the 5DS as an architectural tool.


----------



## ecqns (Jun 4, 2015)

ReTake said:


> FPS doesn't have anything to do with architectural photography, but it was a review of the 5DS, not a review of the 5DS as an architectural tool.



I believe a review from an architectural photographer pretty much shows it from the perspective as someone using it for architecture. I don't look at camera reviews from wedding or events people to get an idea of what a camera will do for architecture work.


----------

