# Canon releases an official statement about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 heat concerns



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 14, 2020)

> There has been a lot of concern recently about how the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6 handle heat when recording 8K and 4K video. Canon has released an official statement on the issue.
> *From Canon:*
> Details Regarding Canon EOS R5/EOS R6 Overheating During Video Recording
> The EOS R5, one of the latest additions to Canon’s full-frame mirrorless camera line, offers class-leading autofocus with high-resolution and high frame rate video recording options using the maximum width of the full-frame sensor at high bit rates. Inevitably, this combination of features has the potential to generate some significant heat, which will limit recording time.
> ...



Continue reading...


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## pmjm (Jul 14, 2020)

Still unaddressed: Can you mitigate some of these heat concerns, at least at 4K60 and below, by using an external recorder? That way at least you're offloading the h.265 compression to an external unit.


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## Gazwas (Jul 14, 2020)

Well that didn't actually say anything we didn't already know???

Canon need to manufactures an EF lens adapter with a fan to suck heat directly from the sensor for the long take video shooters.


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## .jan (Jul 14, 2020)

I've been using video capable DSLRs for a decade now and shot maybe a total of 20 minutes of video on them so naturally that's the most uninteresting news I could think of. However, it's gonna be fun seeing everyone go mad about it and construct an issue where there really is none (if you need proper heat managaement get a cinema camera ffs).


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## addola (Jul 14, 2020)

I am primarily a stills shooter, but I can see how overheating can be disappointing. I think these numbers are from a cold start. 

I wonder how it would work if I had the camera on and taking photos here and there, and then switched to shot a short video


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## Gazwas (Jul 14, 2020)

.jan said:


> I've been using video capable DSLRs for a decade now and shot maybe a total of 20 minutes of video on them so naturally that's the most uninteresting news I could think of. However, it's gonna be fun seeing everyone go mad about it and construct an issue where there really is none (if you need proper heat managaement get a cinema camera ffs).


But you've got to factor in the cumulative effect of heat build up over a period of time, not just one take.

I've pre-ordered however, I find the heat issues a very dissapointing with all these limittions.


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## TomR (Jul 14, 2020)

addola said:


> I am primarily a stills shooter, but I can see how overheating can be disappointing. I think these numbers are from a cold start.
> 
> I wonder how it would work if I had the camera on and taking photos here and there, and then switched to shot a short video



i second this as well as what happens if the ambient temp is warmer


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## Nelu (Jul 14, 2020)

addola said:


> I am primarily a stills shooter, but I can see how overheating can be disappointing. I think these numbers are from a cold start.
> 
> I wonder how it would work if I had the camera on and taking photos here and there, and then switched to shot a short video


Oh, you mean to actually use it as a photo camera, not as a dedicated video camera?
Come on, that's crazy talk! We really want those long, boring YouTube videos to get longer and higher resolution...


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 14, 2020)

4K 30p sounds good enough for me and a great option for normal people. I can understand some people want the 4k 120p option for slow motion but i'm not really sure why the limit would be an issue as how much slow motion would you want to film at once? As far as 8K, I genuinely think its an amazing achievement to have that in a mirrorless body this size and whilst I feel for those that want this feature and be able to have unlimited recording time, realistically unless the laws of physics can be changed, it's not going to happen any time soon. Sorry folks.


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## john1970 (Jul 14, 2020)

As a still shooters who hopes to use the 8K RAW at 30 fps to grab frames of fast moving subjects I am not too concerned with the recording limits. I would likely only use the function for 20-30 seconds at a time and can work within the limitations.


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## twoheadedboy (Jul 14, 2020)

All I know is I'm fucking stoked to be getting 4k 30p unlimited on my R5 as a stills photographer who has never had that capability, or could justify the cost of acquiring it.


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## slclick (Jul 14, 2020)

So, for stills only, doesn't look like anyone can find any flaws? I know, still early.


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## LDS (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Canon need to manufactures an EF lens adapter with a fan to suck heat directly from the sensor for the long take video shooters.



Probably any vortex created between lens and sensor may degrade the image quality, because of different densities. The handheld photocamera form factor + weather sealing makes really difficult to dissipate heath efficiently.


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## -pekr- (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Well that didn't actually say anything we didn't already know???
> 
> Canon need to manufactures an EF lens adapter with a fan to suck heat directly from the sensor for the long take video shooters.



But that means using only EF lens, right? I wonder, if they could solve it somehow from within the grip? There would have to be some metal part connection, to dissipate the heat though. There seems to be some strange part close to the hinge of the LCD screen. If it would be metal and not plastic, could serve the purpose with some additional tools. But what about an external recorder for such situations?


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## TomR (Jul 14, 2020)

questions unanswered:

How is over heating effected with different ambient temps? from switching from stills mode to video?

How is over heating affected with battery grip?

How is heat affected when recording to external monitor? and whats the maximum external frame rate / resolution to external? is it oversampled?


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## Gazwas (Jul 14, 2020)

I watched a viedo posted on here where by a guy who tested the R5 said 4K @ 30p was also heat limited at higher ambient temeratures.


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## Nelu (Jul 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> So, for stills only, doesn't look like anyone can find any flaws? I know, still early.


I heard about some overheating issues with animal eye detection when used on spiders


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## Steve Dmark2 (Jul 14, 2020)

If you have concerns, so wait with the pre order until an dependent reviewers have done their reviews. If you already have pre-ordered, too bad


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## fingerstein (Jul 14, 2020)

I find the heat issue very disturbing. There is a need to have this small sized camera for video work on a gimbal. Few years back I used 7DII to shoot TEDx conference. It was one time job in a life. But I did it. I'll still wait for a full frame camera with interchangeable lens that can shoot 4K/60, unlimited recording time and a decent codec. The R mount and drop in filter adapters could solve even the ND issue on DSLRs. With little money we could add that feature found in cinema cameras. But, I guess, Cannon won't offer this for a low price. 1DXIII has no issues regarding overheating. R6, instead, for less money, with the same sensor, has this problem. Finally everything is about marketing, about money. I'm happy that Canon somehow answered. It's a shame.
EDIT: overheating is real:


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## PeterParker (Jul 14, 2020)

Perhaps I'm just a crazy fanboy, but this seems... entirely reasonable and not at all out of step with what I expected? Not only that, but I actually think Canon's transparency on the matter is enormously refreshing? Am I the insane one here?

I am usually very quick to criticize large companies who fail to meet expectations or pull some pseudo bait-and-switch nonsense, but I genuinely don't believe the outsized criticism of these heat "issues" is warranted. The R5 is not -- and was never advertised as -- a C500 replacement. The spec sheet, even including these high end recording limitations, is more than I possibly could have asked for 6 months ago. What were others who are more critical honestly expecting? (This is not a pejorative statement by the way, I'm genuinely curious -- if you're disappointed by this, what were your expectations?)


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## nighthawk82 (Jul 14, 2020)

TomR said:


> i second this as well as what happens if the ambient temp is warmer


if you're out in 40C weather and need to shoot video... you can expect to shoot much less than expected. The only thing to keep in mind is how much do you need to shoot. I'm no video shooter and couldn't care much about this overheating concern, but is it really normal to want to record more than 20 minutes of 8K RAW video on a regular basis? Seriously, where in the world will you store all that data? I can understand short clips here and there, just like in movie production. But 20 minutes of 8K RAW?? Or even 4k 120fps. I think it's a very specific setting used for shooting SECONDS to then use as slow motion footage. Does anyone expect to be shooting 15 minutes of 4k 120fps footage?

Then, at the end of the day, if this overheating thing affects you regularly, you're probably chose the wrong camera to do your work with. Look towards Canon's Cinema series if you need to record so much video at such high quality without needing downtime. Their bigger form factor allows for extra cooling. If it affects you rarely, is it really an issue? And out of the times it affected you, how many of those times were of the type where it was perfectly ok to just take a break and have a chat/coffee while the camera cooled down? I think in a significant majority of cases, the number of times this overheating issue will critically cripple a user (from the correct target base for the camera) is insignificant.


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## TMHKR (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve Dmark2 said:


> If you have concerns, so wait with the pre order until an dependent reviewers have done their reviews. If you already have pre-ordered, too bad


I will never be able to understand the thought process of an early adopter.


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## Kit. (Jul 14, 2020)

So, for the R5, both line-skipped FF 4K30 and oversampled APS-C 4K30 have no heat issues?

Which means, in video mode it's actually no worse than any other weather-sealed mirrorless camera with stills ergonomics?


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## JP Davis (Jul 14, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> I find the heat issue very disturbing. There is a need to have this small sized camera for video work on a gimbal. Few years back I used 7DII to shoot TEDx conference. It was one time job in a life. But I did it. I'll still wait for a full frame camera with interchangeable lens that can shoot 4K/60, unlimited recording time and a decent codec. The R mount and drop in filter adapters could solve even the ND issue on DSLRs. With little money we could add that feature found in cinema cameras. But, I guess, Cannon won't offer this for a low price. 1DXIII has no issues regarding overheating. R6, instead, for less money, with the same sensor, has this problem. Finally everything is about marketing, about money. I'm happy that Canon somehow answered. It's a shame.
> EDIT: overheating is real:



This isn't a money issue, its a simple physics issue. Your comparison to the 1DXIII makes no sense, it is twice the size of the R5, shooting a sensor less than half the MP and at a lower resolution video. Of course it can manage heat better. You're packing a lot of processing into a much smaller space, the heat has to go _somewhere._

If this were a pure money play Canon wouldn't have introduced these features into this line at all, instead leaving it in their much more expensive cinema line.


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## unfocused (Jul 14, 2020)

I'm super happy about this. Gives people something new to complain about on the forum.


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## JP Davis (Jul 14, 2020)

Kit. said:


> So, for the R5, both line-skipped FF 4K30 and oversampled APS-C 4K30 have no heat issues?
> 
> Which means, in video mode it's actually no worse than any other weather-sealed mirrorless camera with stills ergonomics?



Well that will hardly get you clicks on your Youtube video. Better go with the fire graphics instead


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## slclick (Jul 14, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I'm super happy about this. Gives people something new to complain about on the forum.


I was wondering which issue would be first. 

"Whaaaa my finger isn't a perfect match for the battery door latch, CRIPPLE!"

"The strap lugs aren't a colorway match for my bespoke vegan turtle hair wriststrap"

"The R5 font is seriously keeping me up at night"


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## koenkooi (Jul 14, 2020)

nighthawk82 said:


> if you're out in 40C weather and need to shoot video... you can expect to shoot much less than expected. The only thing to keep in mind is how much do you need to shoot. I'm no video shooter and couldn't care much about this overheating concern, but is it really normal to want to record more than 20 minutes of 8K RAW video on a regular basis? Seriously, where in the world will you store all that data? I can understand short clips here and there, just like in movie production. But 20 minutes of 8K RAW?? Or even 4k 120fps. I think it's a very specific setting used for shooting SECONDS to then use as slow motion footage. Does anyone expect to be shooting 15 minutes of 4k 120fps footage? [..]


Not in one go, but heat is a cumulative effect, so the question is more like "How many minutes of slow-mo can I shoot in a morning in a 30C location?"
That's where the "real world reviews" come in


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## snappy604 (Jul 14, 2020)

Used to have overheat warnings on my 7D with much lower resolutions.. found a lot of the heat was the battery.. I'd swap it out and gain a bit of time.. Maybe with the external USB something could be done to further reduce. Would have to see it tested.


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## BeenThere (Jul 14, 2020)

Please cancel your preorders so that I may move higher on the list.


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## Besisika (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> I watched a viedo posted on here where by a guy who tested the R5 said 4K @ 30p was also heat limited at higher ambient temeratures.


Was it standard 4K30p or HQ 4K30p? There is a difference.


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## henrus (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Canon need to manufactures an EF lens adapter with a fan to suck heat directly from the sensor for the long take video shooters.


Wouldnt that create a lot of noise that will get recorded?


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## Dj 7th (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> I watched a viedo posted on here where by a guy who tested the R5 said 4K @ 30p was also heat limited at higher ambient temeratures.



There are two type of 4K 30p that can be recorded by the R5. One is oversampled from 8K, it has a heat limit. The other is not oversampled from 8K, it has no heat limit. You can record that for as long as you can even though you have to hit record again every 29.59 minutes just like all Canon DSLR.

The oversampled 4K 30p give more information, but the regular 4K 30p is also very good according to Canon. People are getting these two modes mixed up or thinking they are one and the same.

The basic truth according to the information we have right now is that you can record normal 4K 30p without any heat restriction. If you want anything higher than the normal 4K 30p, then you have restrictions on the R5.


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## SecureGSM (Jul 14, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Oh, you mean to actually use it as a photo camera, not as a dedicated video camera?
> Come on, that's crazy talk! We really want those long, boring YouTube videos to get longer and higher resolution...


Anything less thank 8K is not YouTube worthy not in 2020. Ask Tony and Chelsea.


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## iamjhil (Jul 14, 2020)

The real like question is how it'll work in 1-2minute bursts. I'm not sure why anyones planning to film 4k60 or 4k120 for long periods of time..


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## AEWest (Jul 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> 4K 30p sounds good enough for me and a great option for normal people. I can understand some people want the 4k 120p option for slow motion but i'm not really sure why the limit would be an issue as how much slow motion would you want to film at once? As far as 8K, I genuinely think its an amazing achievement to have that in a mirrorless body this size and whilst I feel for those that want this feature and be able to have unlimited recording time, realistically unless the laws of physics can be changed, it's not going to happen any time soon. Sorry folks.


Well there goes my plan of filming a 2 hour IMAX movie in one take with a $3,800 camera. So unfair. #sarcasm


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## Besisika (Jul 14, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Not in one go, but heat is a cumulative effect, so the question is more like "How many minutes of slow-mo can I shoot in a morning in a 30C location?"
> That's where the "real world reviews" come in


You nailed it! Your question makes totally sense to me.
Shooting 45min 8K doesn't make sense what so ever to me, regardless of who is saying it.
However, if I intend to shoot 4K120, 30sec each, how long do I have to wait between takes in order to be able to shoot for 2 hours?
I am not a slow mo guy, and won't do that, but I can understand if someone wants to.


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## Viggo (Jul 14, 2020)

If you can afford enough CFE memory to run into the heat limits all the time, you can afford a Cinema camera


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## SecureGSM (Jul 14, 2020)

henrus said:


> Wouldnt that create a lot of noise that will get recorded?


There is a little issue. You need some sort of vents to let the hot air out. See where I am going with that? It may inadvertently let a light in. Oops. I see a solution. A spiral vent / channel like around the entire adapter. Light does not travel in spirals. Reflections can be dealt with. It gonna work. I am sure Canon is across of this.


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## Kit. (Jul 14, 2020)

Dj 7th said:


> There are two type of 4K 30p that can be recorded by the R5.


Three types, actually. Two of them, according to Canon, don't overheat.


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## crazyrunner33 (Jul 14, 2020)

addola said:


> I am primarily a stills shooter, but I can see how overheating can be disappointing. I think these numbers are from a cold start.
> 
> I wonder how it would work if I had the camera on and taking photos here and there, and then switched to shot a short video



Very good question, that's what I'm curious about as well. The numbers being listed in ideal conditions make it a little concerning for run and gun video. 

I'll likely never use the 8K function except for some studio stuff here and there, but it's the concerns about overheating in 4K60p that are the issue. I was hopeful of being able to not have to carry around the GH5 with me, but it looks like I'll have to wait for that day to come.


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## Nelu (Jul 14, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> A spiral vent / channel like around the entire adapter. Light does not travel in spirals.


But water does travel in spirals. 
Am I missing the sarcasm in your comment, maybe?


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## nighthawk82 (Jul 14, 2020)

Besisika said:


> You nailed it! Your question makes totally sense to me.
> Shooting 45min 8K doesn't make sense what so ever to me, regardless of who is saying it.
> However, if I intend to shoot 4K120, 30sec each, how long do I have to wait between takes in order to be able to shoot for 2 hours?
> I am not a slow mo guy, and won't do that, but I can understand if someone wants to.


Again, real world scenarios. Would you really need to shoot 30 SECONDS of 120fps footage, for 2 hours? Firstly, the entire point of 120FPS is recording extremely short scenes for slow mo reproduction. Think Mythbusters... high speed camera to record an instant of time. If you're recording 30 seconds of continuous 120fps, I think you're already in a minority (I think even 15 seconds is pushing it). Needing to do it constantly for 2 hours (I can understand 2 or 3 retakes of an action scene... but 2 hours?) then yeah... a C500 is more up your alley.

One real world scenario I can think of... wanting to record cars drifting round a corner in slow mo. Ok... first of all... each scene is less than 10 seconds long (including lead in and lead out times). Secondly, in 15 minutes you can record 90 cars drifting around the corner before you need to take a break. Isn't that enough for a STILLS camera? If you need to record more than that, once again, it's like trying to make a Morris Minor do 300kph and log a record at Nurburgring. There are pieces of equipment DESIGNED for that sort of abuse.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 14, 2020)

Usual dopey comments by stills shooters who would never accept a stills camera that overheats under normal operating conditions but thinks it’s perfectly fine that video cameras do. 
Of course other manufactures cameras don’t overheat under normal conditions but let’s not let reality burst our our feel good bubble. 
You can’t make this stuff up. I have to find something better to do with my time.


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## another_mikey (Jul 14, 2020)

I am primarily a stills shooter too. If I use 8K it will likely be for extracting 33MB frame grab stills for faster action. Personally, I am MUCH happier they chose to make the camera as weather protected as possible instead of putting in fans and cooling slots. I can take the camera out in light rain or cold extremes and not worry about issues to the same level I would if it had open vents in it. It is after all a hybrid camera that looks to excel at stills capture, which is why I have pre-ordered one. It looks to equal or exceed every single spec on my 6 year old 5DSr that I have happily used until now. I am excited to get into some wildlife imaging with this camera that was more difficult to do with the 5DSr.

I understand that for dedicated video capture the overheating issues could be a real problem. Perhaps that means buying a dedicated video camera is a better approach?

ML


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## SecureGSM (Jul 14, 2020)

Nelu said:


> But water does travel in spirals.
> Am I missing the sarcasm in your comment, maybe?


Nope. That can be dealt with: a membane.... that’s an easy issue to deal with.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 14, 2020)

Canon spent the last six months almost exclusively promoting the video capabilities of this camera. Which part of that do some of you fail to comprehend?


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## eat-sleep-code (Jul 14, 2020)

Sure, we would all love to boast that we can shoot TBs of 8K footage non-stop. But... reality:

1.) Your CF Express card is going to limit the footage you can record anyway. Outside of Delkin's recently announced 2TB card, the cards currently are limited to 1TB and cost around $1000/each! No, you can not offload your footage to an external recorder, as far as I know, external recorders top out at 4K60. This is a bandwidth limitation of the HDMI port.

2.) Unless you are shooting a full documentary interview, why are you shooting 20 minutes straight? Again, you are going to run into storage limitations so you need to be judicious with your shots. If at a wedding, shoot the vows. Shoot the cutting of the cake. Shoot some B-roll, none of these take 20 minutes. For travel-type videography, unless you are gimbal shooting you are not going to be able to shoot 20 minutes of steady footage. For an interview -- I would ask do we really care to see it in 8K? Or is 4K30 sufficient.

3.) In a pinch you can turn off the Overheat protection, understanding that you are putting undue wear and tear on the camera.

4.) If you need more than this, consider a C500 MKII. The right tool for the right job... don't use a utility knife to perform open heart surgery.


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## PureClassA (Jul 14, 2020)

pmjm said:


> Still unaddressed: Can you mitigate some of these heat concerns, at least at 4K60 and below, by using an external recorder? That way at least you're offloading the h.265 compression to an external unit.


Any external recorder will wipe this out. I use one all the time with the EOS R and the R never gets warm and the LPE6N battery runs for hours


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## Gazwas (Jul 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Any external recorder will wipe this out. I use one all the time with the EOS R and the R never gets warm and the LPE6N battery runs for hours


Never used an external recorder so can you just record the output of the HDMI feed without ever pressing record on the camera?


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## Gazwas (Jul 14, 2020)

Besisika said:


> Was it standard 4K30p or HQ 4K30p? There is a difference.


Watched the video again and he only states 4K30p.

A person has commented about this and the guy said it was Canons specs and he wasnt sure if it was HQ version or not. Probably was the downsamples version by the sound of it which highlights the fact most Tubers are posting total rubbish about the R5.

EDIT: should have typed wasn't the downsampled version


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## koenkooi (Jul 14, 2020)

nighthawk82 said:


> Again, real world scenarios. Would you really need to shoot 30 SECONDS of 120fps footage, for 2 hours? Firstly, the entire point of 120FPS is recording extremely short scenes for slow mo reproduction.[..]



M ypersonal use case would be macro, getting slow-mo shots of various bugs doing their thing, e.g. a butterfly landing, sticking its proboscis into a flower, drinking and flying off again. Or sweat bees taking a pollen bath. Those are are hard to get right as stills, let alone video and I can do that for a long time in a row in my garden. 
Since that's my only interest in video, I won't ever look at getting a proper cine camera. And it's a niche use case for a niche hobby, so all the hand (or other body part) waving about how professionals should work doesn't matter to me, personally.

Maybe I'll never hit the overheating threshold and all this is moot, but as someone else on this forum said: you can put the condescension back in the box.


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## TMHKR (Jul 14, 2020)

Why is the article deleted? False news, or? I can't open it.


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## Gazwas (Jul 14, 2020)

henrus said:


> Wouldnt that create a lot of noise that will get recorded?


Posibly but if you are shooting work that requires these high frame rates or resolution you at least owe the production decent off camera audio.


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## scyrene (Jul 14, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Usual dopey comments by stills shooters who would never accept a stills camera that overheats under normal operating conditions but thinks it’s perfectly fine that video cameras do.
> Of course other manufactures cameras don’t overheat under normal conditions but let’s not let reality burst our our feel good bubble.
> You can’t make this stuff up. I have to find something better to do with my time.



You really do.


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## scyrene (Jul 14, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Canon spent the last six months almost exclusively promoting the video capabilities of this camera. Which part of that do some of you fail to comprehend?



And it offers betters video specs than any other camera in the category. What part of that don't you comprehend?


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## eat-sleep-code (Jul 14, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Of course other manufactures cameras don’t overheat under normal conditions but let’s not let reality burst our our feel good bubble.



I know! Not one other manufacturer of an 8K full frame mirrorless camera has this problem! Oh, because they don't have the camera offering to begin with.


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## eat-sleep-code (Jul 14, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> M ypersonal use case would be macro, getting slow-mo shots of various bugs doing their thing, e.g. a butterfly landing, sticking its proboscis into a flower, drinking and flying off again. Or sweat bees taking a pollen bath. Those are are hard to get right as stills, let alone video and I can do that for a long time in a row in my garden.
> Since that's my only interest in video, I won't ever look at getting a proper cine camera. And it's a niche use case for a niche hobby, so all the hand (or other body part) waving about how professionals should work doesn't matter to me, personally.
> 
> Maybe I'll never hit the overheating threshold and all this is moot, but as someone else on this forum said: you can put the condescension back in the box.



Very cool! It is definitely a niche use case, but would love to see the output.


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## StevenA (Jul 14, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Canon spent the last six months almost exclusively promoting the video capabilities of this camera. Which part of that do some of you fail to comprehend?



Comprehend it perfectly. Video recording at those resolutions moves a lot of data which creates a lot of heat (science). It's a small package packing a lot of technology. Which part of that do others fail to comprehend?


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 14, 2020)

Maybe Canon should just make a version of R5 with a bit bigger body, cooling fan and unlimited recording to please everyone.


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## crazyrunner33 (Jul 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Any external recorder will wipe this out. I use one all the time with the EOS R and the R never gets warm and the LPE6N battery runs for hours



The EOS R used a 1:1 4K crop to reduce overheating. The sensor readout for the R5 is a bit more of a challenge. It's the reason the Nikon Z7 and Sony A7RIII had to line skip instead of oversample like their lower megapixel counterparts.


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## crazyrunner33 (Jul 14, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Maybe Canon should just make a version of R5 with a bit bigger body, cooling fan and unlimited recording to please everyone.



Or the R6 for video people. I'd be very happy with those specs in the 1DX or full size 5D body with IBIS.


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## Nelu (Jul 14, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Maybe Canon should just make a version of R5 with a bit bigger body, cooling fan and unlimited recording to please everyone.


You mean like this?








EOS C500 Mark II


5.9K Full Frame CMOS Sensor, with support for Super 35mm and Super 16mm crop modesUser Changeable Lens Mounts which gives users freedom to use the lenses they desireNewly developed DIGIC DV 7 Image Processor, which powerfully processes high-resolution image dataCanon Cinema RAW Light and XF-AVC...




www.usa.canon.com


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 14, 2020)

StevenA said:


> Comprehend it perfectly. Video recording at those resolutions moves a lot of data which creates a lot of heat (science). It's a small package packing a lot of technology. Which part of that do others fail to comprehend?


I think when anyone, me included, sees information they are interested in, they get excited and focus on that, losing some objectivity and perspective along the way. 

I'm not in marketing but Canon could have positioned this a little better to manage expectations and focus on the R5 being a fantastic stills camera with some incredible options re 8K? 

Maybe Everyone needs to chill a little, reflect on if they got a little too excited and manage their expectations?


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## VegasCameraGuy (Jul 14, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Oh, you mean to actually use it as a photo camera, not as a dedicated video camera?
> Come on, that's crazy talk! We really want those long, boring YouTube videos to get longer and higher resolution...


You mean I can actually take pictures with it? I thought it was a video camera! LOL

B&H just shipped my 24-70mm F2.8L but still waiting on my R5 to see how hot it really gets.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 14, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Maybe Canon should just make a version of R5 with a bit bigger body, cooling fan and unlimited recording to please everyone.


Haha, dont forget a 2 TB SSD to store all the RAW footage. Oh & a battery with quadruple the capacity to cope with the extra drain.


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## davidhfe (Jul 14, 2020)

crazyrunner33 said:


> Or the R6 for video people. I'd be very happy with those specs in the 1DX or full size 5D body with IBIS.



The problem is the R6 overheats after ~40 mins at it's only 4Kp30 mode. I have zero issues with the limits on the R5 (I do think Canon messed up the marketing here) but the R6 should be the world's best vlogging camera. Unfortunately, for YT production you do need a camera that you can "set and forget". I'm starting to think the R6 is a bit of a miss in terms of overall position. It "needs" a 4K crop mode (1.3?) with unlimited recording, and ideally expanded internal codecs.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Jul 14, 2020)

TMHKR said:


> I will never be able to understand the thought process of an early adopter.




I hear you on that
I decided to wait and not preorder 
I think the R6 will be fine but have some concerns about the R5.
I’m not a videographer but was looking forward to 4K 60 nature videos. I personally have no use for 8k.

It would be disconcerting if the R5 has an issue with this even if I never plan on using 8k. I view the R5 as a professional camera and the heir to the 5D mark.

These rumors are not what I expect from a canon professional camera from a quality standpoint. So here to hoping it’s all fuss and no substance.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> but the R6 should be the world's best vlogging camera.


Why would anyone need 12 fps mechanical shutter on a "world's best vlogging camera"?


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 14, 2020)

I hope that some of the video people cancel their orders, I'm planning to order one today if I get my 5D MK IV up for sale. I did a shutter count last night, 5100 actuations.

I think that even 5 minutes of 8K would be amazing. Just a few years ago, it took a big external computer and a ton of cooling to shoot 1080P.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 14, 2020)

Dmcavoy said:


> IF YOU NEED TO RECORD 8K FOR LONGER THAN 20 MINUTES BUY A F**CKING RED CAMERA.


And make sure you have several on standby because RED's are notoriously unreliable on set....


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## Jasonmc89 (Jul 14, 2020)

Don’t forget that this type of camera is mainly used for photographs. If you want a proper video then get a C500 or something. 20 minute 8K videos is perfectly acceptable. It’s 8K in a smaller-than-DSLR camera ffs!


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## Th0msky (Jul 14, 2020)

I was very excited about the R6. I still am, but I want to use the R6 as a very good budget cinema video camera. I also think this can be the case. Although I'm not satisfied with the overheating, it's something we have to deal with otherwise I should just buy myself a cinema camera,

I also think we shouldn't adress something that hasn't been fully experienced by regular consumers other than an ambassador from Canon itself on a test model.

Though regarding the overheating issue; Would I run into this issue if I set my recording mode to 4K60 and only shoot burst shots instead of continuously shooting? Like I always use my camera to regularly make few second/minute shots. therefore I'm not concerned about the max 30min recording time, but it should not just overheat when I use this camera the way I do.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 14, 2020)

Besisika said:


> You nailed it! Your question makes totally sense to me.
> Shooting 45min 8K doesn't make sense what so ever to me, regardless of who is saying it.
> However, if I intend to shoot 4K120, 30sec each, how long do I have to wait between takes in order to be able to shoot for 2 hours?
> I am not a slow mo guy, and won't do that, but I can understand if someone wants to.


It all depends on the time to cool between shots. It takes longer to cool than to heat, so 30 sec on, 30 sec off would gradually build up heat. Depending on ambient, that might go over a hour.


----------



## JoeDavid (Jul 14, 2020)

Nelu said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing except it will probably be called the C800...


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 14, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I hear you on that
> I decided to wait and not preorder
> I think the R6 will be fine but have some concerns about the R5.
> I’m not a videographer but was looking forward to 4K 60 nature videos. I personally have no use for 8k.
> ...


The *substance* is in the article there for all to see:

Both the R5 and R6 have active thermal protection that can and will be triggered when the measured limits are reached.

I find this line critical from the article posted.

_*"Before recording starts, the EOS R5 and EOS R6 display an estimate of the recordable time based on the current camera temperature and the set recording mode." *_

If this is true, the user will know before they hit the record button what they can and cannot do in terms of record length at the selected mode. So if the user wants 15mins of 4K120 (roughly 75mins of slow motion on a 4K 24P timeline) and the Camera is showing that you have 5mins of record time you have to change the shot or wait till the Camera is ready for that workload.

I think it is still *fuss, *because the limitations are clearly stated. If the record limits in the higher resolutions do not meet some users needs they need to look elsewhere.


----------



## Nelu (Jul 14, 2020)

JoeDavid said:


> I was thinking the same thing except it will probably be called the C800...


Yeah, right?
Just because the R5 is overheating you can't call it a RED camera...unless you give it enough time and disable the overheating protection.


----------



## Aregal (Jul 14, 2020)

pmjm said:


> Still unaddressed: Can you mitigate some of these heat concerns, at least at 4K60 and below, by using an external recorder? That way at least you're offloading the h.265 compression to an external unit.


That will most likely work.

That being said...we, as consumers, are very lucky. I remember not being able to film content because my ENG camera encountered too much humidity. I remember having to cover Blackmagic and RED cameras from direct sunlight to keep the sensors cool to minimize the chance of sensor noise. Apparently, A7s were known for overheating but I was lucky enough to not encounter that issue.

The projects I shoot for work and for fun allow me to let the camera rest in between takes. Having started out with a Canon XL2 and moving on to Sony ENGs, Cinema EOS, and ARRIs, it's generlly good practice to turn off the camera in between takes...at least to save battery power.

Every camera has it's quirks. Canon could have capped shooting options to 4K 30 fullframe but they decided to go ALL-OUT and let the thing over heat.

It's up to the consumers to take that risk and I'm one of them.

Now, if I have a paid project, I will have back up cameras and back up cameras for those camera and if the budget allows, I'll hire proper cameras. 

If the R5 were a C-cam/crash cam, I'd pair it with the C500ii.

I digress but back to your comment, yes, at 4K 60p only, an external recorder may help reduce heat build up; the R5's card bay door even has heat warnings.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> I think when anyone, me included, sees information they are interested in, they get excited and focus on that, losing some objectivity and perspective along the way.
> 
> I'm not in marketing but Canon could have positioned this a little better to manage expectations and focus on the R5 being a fantastic stills camera with some incredible options re 8K?
> 
> Maybe Everyone needs to chill a little, reflect on if they got a little too excited and manage their expectations?



I've been thinking about this a ton. Imagine if Canon had said the following in it's R5 development announcement:

- High Res 12/20 shooting
- Full width 4K30/4K60
- Full array of codecs and bit rates
- 10 bit 422 internal and via HDMI
- DPAF in all modes
- Additional situational-use, high quality modes teased, including RAW and HFR. "Still being finalized based on user feedback"
- Could even voice over that this represents a shift from overly cautious to more aggressive, even if that means stressing the hardware.

The video world would have gone crazy. Canon finally is doing full width! Clean 422 10 bit 60fps! And then at launch, unveil those extra modes with an asterisk.

Based on the fact they had to release this followup statement, I think Canon got hit with a few whammies:
- The 8K leak happened way, way earlier and canon felt the need to address it for some reason
- COVID really botched their normal release plan
- Marketing over-promoted the 8K, and their was this weird drip-drip-drip of info (e.g. the Canon Australia thing) that made it SEEM like canon was doing some big hype train buildup.

The last one is a little tough because it's not canon that was overhyping, it was the photo/video circles on forums, YouTube, etc. But instead of video folks being thrilled, they feel like their cheese was moved. EOSHD was saying he wished canon hadn't included those modes and just given us what worked flawlessly. I disagree, but just saying "custom function" would have tempered some expectations greatly. "We weren't going to give you these options but our testers demanded we release them!"

The counter argument here is, of course, that this camera is likely going to be supply constrained for 6 months. If they're moving units and customers are happy that's not much of a fail.


----------



## sanj (Jul 14, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Usual dopey comments by stills shooters who would never accept a stills camera that overheats under normal operating conditions but thinks it’s perfectly fine that video cameras do.
> Of course other manufactures cameras don’t overheat under normal conditions but let’s not let reality burst our our feel good bubble.
> You can’t make this stuff up. I have to find something better to do with my time.


Rubbish comment. There is no other camera with these specs.


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## davidhfe (Jul 14, 2020)

Aregal said:


> That will most likely work.
> 
> That being said...we, as consumers, are very lucky. I remember not being able to film content because my ENG camera encountered too much humidity. I remember having to cover Blackmagic and RED cameras from direct sunlight to keep the sensors cool to minimize the chance of sensor noise. Apparently, A7s were known for overheating but I was lucky enough to not encounter that issue.
> 
> ...



Signs are pointing to this being a sensor read issue, not a compression issue. It would help, but I wouldn't expect an Atmos to give you more than a few minutes of extra 4K-Fine


----------



## sanj (Jul 14, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Canon spent the last six months almost exclusively promoting the video capabilities of this camera. Which part of that do some of you fail to comprehend?


Oh. So you did not find anything better to do? LOL


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## Aregal (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> But you've got to factor in the cumulative effect of heat build up over a period of time, not just one take.
> 
> I've pre-ordered however, I find the heat issues a very dissapointing with all these limittions.


I hear you but Canon is usually conservative with their number and estimates; eg. shots per battery with the EOS R. Hopefully they're being convservative with their "rest and resume" estimates but we'll see. Personally, I'm not too worried about the 8K/4K60/120 heat limits; I usually turn my cameras off between takes.


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## Aregal (Jul 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Signs are pointing to this being a sensor read issue, not a compression issue. It would help, but I wouldn't expect an Atmos to give you more than a few minutes of extra 4K-Fine


I thought it was write-to-card issue. IMO, I would take a heat sink over IBIS. I think IBIS will be off most of the time for me.


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## sanj (Jul 14, 2020)

Not true anymore


privatebydesign said:


> And make sure you have several on standby because RED's are notoriously unreliable on set....


Not true anymore private. I have shot 2 features, 5 music videos with RED. They are rock-solid reliable.


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## Aregal (Jul 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> 4K 30p sounds good enough for me and a great option for normal people. I can understand some people want the 4k 120p option for slow motion but i'm not really sure why the limit would be an issue as how much slow motion would you want to film at once? As far as 8K, I genuinely think its an amazing achievement to have that in a mirrorless body this size and whilst I feel for those that want this feature and be able to have unlimited recording time, realistically unless the laws of physics can be changed, it's not going to happen any time soon. Sorry folks.


I think I remember some YouTubers and critics pleading Canon to "not be afraid" and push their tech and let their cameras overheat like Sony. If true, look where we are now. Haha.


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## Aregal (Jul 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> Not true anymore
> Not true anymore private. I have shot 2 features, 5 music videos with RED. They are rock-solid reliable.


Did you have any brains on standby in case one failed?


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## Aregal (Jul 14, 2020)

TMHKR said:


> I will never be able to understand the thought process of an early adopter.


Me too but here we are. I bought the 5D4 the day it was released, no problems. I got the R the day it was release, bricked with in 48hrs. I guess I'm a sadist but I always have backups.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 14, 2020)

Aregal said:


> I thought it was write-to-card issue. IMO, I would take a heat sink over IBIS. I think IBIS will be off most of the time for me.



Different modes with the same codec/bit rate seem to have different thermal limits. To me, seems like Digic has plenty of headroom for compression tasks. But 45mp on a full frame sensor is a lot of ADC, and a lot of surface area to dissipate the heat from. 

On the IBIS thing, You can't build a camera for everyone, and the problem here is that the still-focus crowd have the holy grail of cameras in front of them, and the video-focus crowd is has a ton of compromises. I wouldn't, for instance, trade out IBIS for a sigma-fp style heat sink. And I am super skeptical of the durability of a fan.

Perfect world? Canon could have released a 5Dc with active cooling at $4500+. But that is not the world we live in.


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## Aregal (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Never used an external recorder so can you just record the output of the HDMI feed without ever pressing record on the camera?


Yup. If you hit record on the R it will trigger both the R and the NinjaV. If you hit record on the NinjaV, it will only record on the NinjaV and will not be hindered by the 29:59 internal recording limit of the R.


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## Aregal (Jul 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> I think when anyone, me included, sees information they are interested in, they get excited and focus on that, losing some objectivity and perspective along the way.
> 
> I'm not in marketing but Canon could have positioned this a little better to manage expectations and focus on the R5 being a fantastic stills camera with some incredible options re 8K?
> 
> Maybe Everyone needs to chill a little, reflect on if they got a little too excited and manage their expectations?


I honestly think they will take the R5 sensor (not IBIS) and stuff it in the 5DV and market THAT as the stills-centric body. We'll see in Aug/Sept.


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## Aregal (Jul 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> Different modes with the same codec/bit rate seem to have different thermal limits. To me, seems like Digic has plenty of headroom for compression tasks. But 45mp on a full frame sensor is a lot of ADC, and a lot of surface area to dissipate the heat from.
> 
> On the IBIS thing, You can't build a camera for everyone, and the problem here is that the still-focus crowd have the holy grail of cameras in front of them, and the video-focus crowd is has a ton of compromises. I wouldn't, for instance, trade out IBIS for a sigma-fp style heat sink. And I am super skeptical of the durability of a fan.
> 
> Perfect world? Canon could have released a 5Dc with active cooling at $4500+. But that is not the world we live in.


My concern with active cooling would be battery life. I remember the BMPCC days with its Peltier cooler. It would eat a battery and 64GB card in 15min but I got used to the workflow. Haha.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> Not true anymore
> Not true anymore private. I have shot 2 features, 5 music videos with RED. They are rock-solid reliable.







A lot depends on the model and the resolution, but there are countless examples of RED's freezing and hanging on set.


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## drama (Jul 14, 2020)

Honestly, I'm kinda bummed Canon fell into the shrill Youtuber clickbait trap. Hell, even Jared was telling people to shut up and wait for the camera. Now Canon have shown they're sweating like... well, like they've been recording at 8K for 15 minutes....

All of this noise will go away when it's been in users hands a couple of months. The all-around proposition looks incredible. This is fan entitlement / axe-grinding for clicks because it doesn't do everything, perfectly. No one camera does.


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## arbitrage (Jul 14, 2020)

Don't worry video guys...the Canon BG-E22F is coming....


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## Kit. (Jul 14, 2020)

Aregal said:


> Yup. If you hit record on the R it will trigger both the R and the NinjaV. If you hit record on the NinjaV, it will only record on the NinjaV and will not be hindered by the 29:59 internal recording limit of the R.


I'm afraid the R5 will stay in the line-skipping 4K mode (to prevent overheating) until you hit record on it. Or at least that's what Canon claims it will do.

So, while you will be able to record more than 30 minutes continuously, it won't be of 4K-oversampled-from-8K quality.


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## scyrene (Jul 14, 2020)

I'm genuinely baffled. Even by the standards of people moaning about stuff on the internet... I'll repeat what I said on another thread: when the 8K rumour first emerged (was it February?), nobody seemed to take it seriously, and naysayers including DPReview were openly suggesting it might just be a time lapse mode, or just capabl of very short clips. If you'd said back then it would be up to 20 minutes straight, people would have been pleasantly surprised. If in the interim people have convinced themselves that there would be no limitations of any kind, then that's their own naivety. You are being given MANY MORE OPTIONS THAN BEFORE. There is no perfect product. The levels of entitlement and nitpicking are trough the roof!


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 14, 2020)

arbitrage said:


> Don't worry video guys...the Canon BG-E22F is coming....
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 191339


I love it, so much better because of the bad Photoshop job


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> Oh. So you did not find anything better to do? LOL


I did. Just got back from a 25 mile bike ride. I feel much better thanks.  
Not sure why I care about any of this. Time to move on. It’ll be months before I know whether the R6 will be able to replace my current gear.


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## YuengLinger (Jul 14, 2020)

Canon is up front about it. People are not being deceived. The laws of electronics, thermodynamics still apply.

People who need to be able to shoot 4k for hours on end need to look at other options, and I guess the angriest people here are the ones who cannot afford those other options.

I see the R6 as the ultimate all-around events body, amazing for indoor shows and sports, outdoor action. Paired with the R for higher resolution portraits, heck, I'm set.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Jul 14, 2020)

I don’t think you see the concern
If the concerns are true then this is a disappointment for video users

imagine if the burst rate on your camera was limited by temperature. You would miss shots or change what you really wanted to do based on how warm your camera.

Hoping it’s not true




Ramage said:


> The *substance* is in the article there for all to see:
> 
> Both the R5 and R6 have active thermal protection that can and will be triggered when the measured limits are reached.
> 
> ...


----------



## frozengogo (Jul 14, 2020)

I work in the arctic and have to worry about my camera freezing. Now, with the R5, I won't need to go back inside to warm my camera, all I need to do is record 8k for a little bit. It might even serve as a nice hand warmer.


----------



## AEWest (Jul 14, 2020)

scyrene said:


> I'm genuinely baffled. Even by the standards of people moaning about stuff on the internet... I'll repeat what I said on another thread: when the 8K rumour first emerged (was it February?), nobody seemed to take it seriously, and naysayers including DPReview were openly suggesting it might just be a time lapse mode, or just capabl of very short clips. If you'd said back then it would be up to 20 minutes straight, people would have been pleasantly surprised. If in the interim people have convinced themselves that there would be no limitations of any kind, then that's their own naivety. You are being given MANY MORE OPTIONS THAN BEFORE. There is no perfect product. The levels of entitlement and nitpicking are trough the roof!


True. Just look at Matt Granger (Nikon guy) a few months ago assuring us it would be in MPEG, etc. 

That we can film 8K Raw with DPAF for 20 minutes is absolutely incredible and represents a huge leap forward for MILC technology.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 14, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I don’t think you see the concern
> If the concerns are true then this is a disappointment for video users
> 
> imagine if the burst rate on your camera was limited by temperature. You would miss shots or change what you really wanted to do based on how warm your camera.
> ...


how is that a disappointment? It sounds like video users are not being reasonable here.
should still shooters start complaining that we are not being given 30fps mechanical shutter speed instead of “pedestrian” 12fps and “only“ 20 FPS electronic shutter? You guys seems to Be offered up to , what, 120FPS in some Of the R5 video modes?

unfair.. what a disappointment.. Not!


----------



## fingerstein (Jul 14, 2020)

JP Davis said:


> This isn't a money issue, its a simple physics issue. Your comparison to the 1DXIII makes no sense, it is twice the size of the R5, shooting a sensor less than half the MP and at a lower resolution video.


I was making a comparison between R6 and 1DXIII, not R5: ” The Canon EOS R6 is powered by Canon's DIGIC X image processor, the same processor found in the professional Canon EOS 1DX Mark II DSLR camera. With this processor, the EOS R6 can capture images at up to 20 frames per second, although with minor caveats. ” source: https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-eos-r6/canon-eos-r6A.HTM


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jul 14, 2020)

Nelu said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not in the 20K price range tho. If the A7S will have unlimited 4K60P then i can see as a much better choice for video for those who want to shoot a full 2 hour show/concert with a camera or a tennis/football match for example.

I would choose the R5 any time simply because it's a much better stills camera. I think Canon did the best they could to offer the perfect stills/video hybrid
currently on the market. No other camera can come close and it's a shame that every Youtube video is about overheating.


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## YuengLinger (Jul 14, 2020)

I never knew that a full frame camera body was supposed to replace high-end video equipment. I see these bodies as perfect for supplementing and enhancing stories told with still photos. Whoever promised being able to make entire films with little full frame camera bodies? Or replacing something that costs 5x as much and more?


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## sanj (Jul 14, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> A lot depends on the model and the resolution, but there are countless examples of RED's freezing and hanging on set.


ZERO (in caps) in my 6 years of using RED. I generally prefer Alexia but use RED often because of fps availability and smaller form factor.


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## researcher (Jul 14, 2020)

If overheating is an issue in real life use, I'm sure some 3rd party vendor will develop a vertical battery grip with a small built-in fan & filter that can gently waft some air through the body. This presumes its an issue and there are crevices in the battery compartment that will facilitate this - won't know till we regulars get one of these in our grubby little hands.

Ultimately, all of this is irrelevant - when Canon releases the R7, the APSC-sensor version of the R-series, which will allow Rebel owners to port all their EF-S lenses to the new platform with the included EF adapter, it will shoot 4K and have a global shutter, but because if its reduced size, will be immune to heat problems. The time is coming.**

** /s


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## BigShooter (Jul 14, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> All I know is I'm fucking stoked to be getting 4k 30p unlimited on my R5 as a stills photographer who has never had that capability, or could justify the cost of acquiring it.



You can already shoot 4K 30p without any overheating issues - just buy an EOS R for a whole lot less cash.


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## sanj (Jul 14, 2020)

I am so blessed to have filmed using 400ft rolls on 35mm cameras. My left index finger would be on the on/off switch all the time. If we all learn that, the camera will not overheat, nor will the HDD get overloaded, nor will we spend hours sorting footage in edit. Of course, when we need to roll continuously we have 4k modes that do not overhead. I just do not see the problem here.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 14, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I don’t think you see the concern
> If the concerns are true then this is a disappointment for video users
> 
> imagine if the burst rate on your camera was limited by temperature. You would miss shots or change what you really wanted to do based on how warm your camera.
> ...


I get it, but I think we have to learn to work with the limitation of the hardware or storage etc.

Example: I shoot at lot airshows which can see me take 15k shots in a single day, In 2015 I learned the hard way to watch my shot counter.

It was the first time the F22 had ever performed at Abbotsford Airshow and I was super excited to finally get me own shots of this beautiful fast mover. It was a twilight show to boot so afterburners in full display. 

After getting the Jet on take off roll snapping away like a mad man on my 7D (bad crop sensor in low light, it was the tool I had at the time...)

*I get the dreaded card full display.*

I have 3 32gig cards with me that I have already filled from the Static line and Snowbirds etc etc.

I know my hit rate is 20% at best so like a idiot I am going through pictures on the back of the camera delete delete delete. While the whole time this Jet that I had waited years to not only photograph but to see is wowing the crowd with what it can do.

I have never had that happen again, and I am not looking forward to the bill for all the CFexpress storage I am going to need but it will be worth it so I do not miss the shot.

As far as the R5 goes my main concern is going to be continuous use as a hybrid. Can I be shooting say 100 pictures, see something I want to record in 4K 24 for 4 mins then switch to 4K 120 for a 30 seconds. If all of that works without the thermal protection then the Camera is perfect for me. If this cause the camera to trigger thermal protection I will be disappointed but will adapt.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 14, 2020)

BigShooter said:


> You can already shoot 4K 30p without any overheating issues - just buy an EOS R for a whole lot less cash.



The R has 1.7 crop, so thats a bit limited.


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## cornieleous (Jul 14, 2020)

Oh NO how will I ever deal with shooting un-cropped regular 4K30P indefinitely without heat problems?! Or ONLY 30 minutes of 4K60? Or ONLY 20 minutes of 8K. Just the memory card to record 20 mins of 8K or any of the over sampled 4K formats costs several hundreds of dollars at cheapest. The computer to edit fast and routinely in 8K or oversampled 4K will cost several thousand more and require multiple high end graphics cards and at least a couple dozen cores to not choke on renders and conversions. How about that 8K monitor or two? Are you complainers too cheap to buy a second body after you lay out that first 10+ grand for 8K or oversampled 4K workflow? Are you really going to shoot an interview or wedding or other long event with one camera in such ridiculous resolution? How unprofessional that will look... Is it that you must have the silly Netflix badge of dishonor on your blogging cam? All these people just continue whining mercilessly about their disappointment with no basis in reality. How come professionals who actually make impressive content seem to always embrace the limitations of cutting edge tools and still get incredible results, but for all these perpetual complainers, "it's unusable because it is not magic" and they can never produce great content? 

These cameras are some of the best anyone has released for stills AND video by any reasonable account, but somehow nothing Canon can do is ever enough. This heat issue is basic physics and there are NOT any other cameras that do it any better except the only single comparable body out there with a fan inside, and it doesn't even have 8K option (S1H). 

How can so many people be whining so hard when A) the camera has not even shipped and B) you couldn't even get close to this capability a year ago? How are you all possibly getting by with your current camera, oh the humanity! Learn something about sensors, ADC readout, integrated circuits and heat and maybe it will dawn on you this is the best possible with physics and that all products are a business and engineering compromise. Disappointed? What were you expecting?!

Haven't heard from a single productive professional with a realistic use case where this heat issue will be a problem, and Canon is the first manufacturer to be up front about it. All the lame negative youtube clickbait videos out are just getting attention and traffic to pay for their do nothing version of making a living, and bamboozling easily influenced people. The majority of these channels make their living spouting inane opinions and maximum controversy just like media. We get far more FACTS right here on a rumors site. One or two reviews or speculative videos are out with balanced intellect from professionals who actually make decent content and understand all tools have limits. No one practical is going to shoot some wedding or interview or other long event in 8K or oversampled 4K because they actually need to. Anyone doing work that REQUIRES 8K can afford more than one camera, and probably a crew, and probably has a shot list and a plan.

Why are people so entitled and spoiled these days to think every company owes them their unreasonable expectations for whatever low price they name?


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## twoheadedboy (Jul 14, 2020)

BigShooter said:


> You can already shoot 4K 30p without any overheating issues - just buy an EOS R for a whole lot less cash.



Good catch, I was imprecise. EOS R only does with 1.8x crop, 8-bit, UHD. That is even more limiting, in my mind, than how the R5 implements 8K, and none of those limitations exist at 4K 30p non-HQ.


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## koenkooi (Jul 14, 2020)

eat-sleep-code said:


> Very cool! It is definitely a niche use case, but would love to see the output.



I'll be sure to link it in the relevant section(s) here in the forums, but I have a feeling the delivery date of my pre-ordered R5 will be after the flowers stopped blooming in my garden. Just like the 100-500 (which I didn't order) would arrive after dragonfly season.


----------



## bytebuster (Jul 14, 2020)

scyrene said:


> I'm genuinely baffled. Even by the standards of people moaning about stuff on the internet... I'll repeat what I said on another thread: when the 8K rumour first emerged (was it February?), nobody seemed to take it seriously, and naysayers including DPReview were openly suggesting it might just be a time lapse mode, or just capabl of very short clips.



This is such a great point. I remember this. Most of us would have been stoked at even 10 mins of 8k footage


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 14, 2020)

proutprout said:


> This just confirms the camera is useless. It’s been presented as a revolution for video and everyone was pumped about it but it’s completely unsable in real life. To all the idiots who rushed to buy it, Cancel your order before it’s too late... The camera will be called the frying pankake...


Yeah, how dare anyone used unlimited, un-cropped, 4K 30 and 4K 24 for making videos in 2020.


----------



## Jordan23 (Jul 14, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Usual dopey comments by stills shooters who would never accept a stills camera that overheats under normal operating conditions but thinks it’s perfectly fine that video cameras do.
> Of course other manufactures cameras don’t overheat under normal conditions but let’s not let reality burst our our feel good bubble.
> You can’t make this stuff up. I have to find something better to do with my time.


There is exactly 0 FF-cameras that records 8K and 4K120P outside R5. I don't think it's another FF-camera out there that record 4K60P at 10bit 4:2:2 full width internally except 1DX 3 either. The next Sony will do it (4K60 & 120P rumored) and Nikon will follow as well. Unfortunately there's not much info about external recording on either the R5 or R6.


----------



## adigoks (Jul 14, 2020)

so if overheat control is 'on' the video quality will automatically change to 4K 30p pixel binning? if it is, then its pretty insteresting.
also ,yes we know canon choose to make R5 & R6 as proper weathershielded camera . but somehow it got me thinking, why they didnt put airflow hole below the camera and cover it with rubber cover like they did with I/O port. when user need more airflow they can just open that cover. i believe canon can do that, make it like S1H and still maintain the weather resistant. maybe canon have other things into consideration like protectic their cinema line for example. but that just a guess, im not an expert at all .


----------



## amorse (Jul 14, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> People who need to be able to shoot 4k for hours on end need to look at other options, and I guess the angriest people here are the ones who cannot afford those other options.


Not necessarily; 4k 30 without oversampling has no record limit according to this report. If people need to film beyond the constraints of heating they can use that mode. Honestly, these compromises seem pretty reasonable when you consider it is a weather sealed and highly compact body. 

If people can't live with these compromises then they'll buy something else. As always, in the end people vote with their wallets. If you need 8K raw/4K 60/4K120 with unlimited recording and no heat issues ever, they can buy a different that supports all of those... though the price point may not match.


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## fentiger (Jul 14, 2020)

lets say canon did address these issue with a cooling fan and vents.
you would be moaning about battery life fan noise and shoddy weather sealing


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jul 14, 2020)

proutprout said:


> This just confirms the camera is useless. It’s been presented as a revolution for video and everyone was pumped about it but it’s completely unsable in real life. To all the idiots who rushed to buy it, Cancel your order before it’s too late... The camera will be called the frying pankake...


As per your previous post with a similar tone which prompted numerous negative responses. You clearly dont want to purchase this camera and have your opinion which you are welcome to. 

However now you have voiced your opinion, please stop this nasty and insulting attack on a large proportion of this forum who are quite capable of seeing the pros and cons for themselves!

if you don't have anything constructive to say or a genuine question please don't post!!


----------



## snappy604 (Jul 14, 2020)

fentiger said:


> lets say canon did address these issue with a cooling fan and vents.
> you would be moaning about battery life fan noise and shoddy weather sealing



and more parts to break


----------



## Nelu (Jul 14, 2020)

proutprout said:


> This just confirms the camera is useless. It’s been presented as a revolution for video and everyone was pumped about it but it’s completely unsable in real life. To all the idiots who rushed to buy it, Cancel your order before it’s too late... The camera will be called the frying pankake...


Amen brother!
And look at this idiot trying to shoot video on a 5D Mark II, what a schmuck!:


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jul 14, 2020)

proutprout said:


> This just confirms the camera is useless. It’s been presented as a revolution for video and everyone was pumped about it but it’s completely unsable in real life. To all the idiots who rushed to buy it, Cancel your order before it’s too late... The camera will be called the frying pankake...


What is unsable?? Please don't reply. I'm sure the reply will be nasty and unconstructive like your previous posts.


----------



## snappy604 (Jul 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> As per your previous post with a similar tone which prompted numerous negative responses. You clearly dont want to purchase this camera and have your opinion which you are welcome to.
> 
> However now you have voiced your opinion, please stop this nasty and insulting attack on a large proportion of this forum who are quite capable of seeing the pros and cons for themselves!
> 
> if you don't have anything constructive to say or a genuine question please don't post!!


look at his posting history.. consistantly negative and rarely with strong arguments.. either troll or unrealistic expectations. Not sure which, but puzzling why he's here if not a troll...

I have had frustrations with Canon, but I do shoot canon and buy canon and I don't think going to another company will fully alleviate those things..it'll just be different compromises. This camera seems to address all my hesitations.. except for price, but that is my problem


----------



## sanj (Jul 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> As per your previous post with a similar tone which prompted numerous negative responses. You clearly dont want to purchase this camera and have your opinion which you are welcome to.
> 
> However now you have voiced your opinion, please stop this nasty and insulting attack on a large proportion of this forum who are quite capable of seeing the pros and cons for themselves!
> 
> if you don't have anything constructive to say or a genuine question please don't post!!


He is joking. Cant you see! Or is he not? I cant believe he can be serious....


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 14, 2020)

I thought the 8K was gonna be motion jpeg time lapse? Or for only 1 minute bursts?

You mean to tell me we can record 8K raw for 20 minutes!


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 14, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I don’t think you see the concern
> If the concerns are true then this is a disappointment for video users
> 
> imagine if the burst rate on your camera was limited by temperature. You would miss shots or change what you really wanted to do based on how warm your camera.



That's just not how video production works. You're not continuously recording long clips. Run the same clip too long in any finished product and you will quickly lose your audience. If you pay attention to professional productions even long interviews involve short clips with slight scene changes and intermixed content so the viewer doesn't fall asleep.

Heat build up could be a concern for...

A) A vlogger who literally hits record and does one long session. Note that this is amateur hour as the professional vloggers clearly edit together short clips that alter the scene/angle slightly even when they're just talking, again because the viewer gets BORED TO TEARS if you don't. Also: do these people need more than 1080p? No, no they do not. Even the YouTube 4k quality argument doesn't hold because it's a compression issue with YouTube so you can simply upscale 1080p to 4k to bypass the issue. I can think of at least one very popular/talented video production vlogger who has access to high end dedicated cinema cameras who produces his YT videos using Canon hybrid cameras at 1080p. And his videos never lack for quality. I was also under the impression that Tony and Chelsea had abandoned a m4/3 4k studio setup for a Canon FF 1080p studio setup because of DPAF.

B) A live event like a press conference. Probably being covered by someone with a dedicated video cam.

C) A live sporting event where even if you're shooting short clips, you're shooting them one on top of the other in rapid succession so heat builds up. Again, probably being covered by a dedicated video cam with B footage from cameras like the 1DX mark III and in the near future R5 and R6.

Everyone envisions themselves producing the next Indie film and gets sad because a camera has thermal limits. Yet an actual film production is the one place where the thermal limits are probably not going to matter because of the length of time between every take to check/alter sets, retouch makeup, mess with lighting, direct actors, etc.


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 14, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Yeah, how dare anyone used unlimited, un-cropped, 4K 30 and 4K 24 for making videos in 2020.
> View attachment 191346



4k 24p???? PFFFFFT! That is like SOOOO 2019, get with the program man!


----------



## adigoks (Jul 14, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> 4k 24p???? PFFFFFT! That is like SOOOO 2019, get with the program man!


2020 is *******


----------



## DBounce (Jul 14, 2020)

For those that think Sony cameras do not overheat. From Sony’s own website:

_If the temperature becomes too high, a warning icon may appear and the camera shuts down to protect the circuitry. This isn't a failure and your camera simply needs to be turned off for several minutes so it can cool down._



https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00186874


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jul 14, 2020)

If I’m angry it’s because I and others have been unrelenting attacked for doing nothing more than asking reasonable questions about overheating. It clearly is a significant issue for many of us and I think it’s reasonable to want to understand the extent of the problem. If there wasn’t a problem Canon wouldn’t be issuing guidance. 

Instead our comments have repeatedly been twisted and intentionally taken out of context in an effort to force us to defend comment We haven’t made. This has not gone unnoticed by myself and has significantly diminished my interest in participating in these forums.


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Jul 14, 2020)

I could see somebody designing a battery grip profile that has thermoelectric modules that mate with the baseplate. The modules would have the heat sink on the underside and the voltage produced by the modules would power a micro-fan. A second alternative is a simple grip type design with internal heat sinks and a battery powered micro-fan.


----------



## wockawocka (Jul 14, 2020)

'We didn't include an internal fan to keep the weight down......

.....so we recommend using an external fan'


----------



## TMHKR (Jul 14, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Why are people so entitled and spoiled these days to think every company owes them their unreasonable expectations for whatever low price they name?


YouTubers are the ones to blame. Yes, you do have some reasonable people among them, but you also have a bunch of crazed millennials who believe they're entitled to deserve that one "perfect" camera that doesn't exist, and who multiply even the smallest drawbacks ten fold. Some of them genuinely believe R5 can only be used as a doorstop because of this.


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 14, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> If I’m angry it’s because I and others have been unrelenting attacked for doing nothing more than asking reasonable questions about overheating.



OK, your first post in this thread was...



> Usual dopey comments by stills shooters who would never accept a stills camera that overheats under normal operating conditions but thinks it’s perfectly fine that video cameras do.



And you honestly can't understand why you've been 'relentlessly attacked'? You then followed your opening with...



> Of course other manufactures cameras don’t overheat under normal conditions but let’s not let reality burst our our feel good bubble.



Point me please to another manufacturer's FF, hybrid, sub-$4k camera body which does not have recording limits at 4k 60p, 4k 120p, and 8k 30p. Even the Sony A73 can overheat and it's only delivering 4k 30p at 8-bit.



> It clearly is a significant issue for many of us



Tell us why. Without calling anyone dopey. In what context will you run into these limits?


----------



## Besisika (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Watched the video again and he only states 4K30p.
> 
> A person has commented about this and the guy said it was Canons specs and he wasnt sure if it was HQ version or not. Probably was the downsamples version by the sound of it which highlights the fact most Tubers are posting total rubbish about the R5.
> 
> EDIT: should have typed wasn't the downsampled version


According to what was put by CR in this topic both standard and crop mode are good, only the oversample would generate heat.
That is good enough for my need if final production delivers that quality.
My only concern would be 4K60. I might forget about it in the heat of the moment.


----------



## TMHKR (Jul 14, 2020)

fentiger said:


> lets say canon did address these issue with a cooling fan and vents.
> you would be moaning about battery life fan noise and shoddy weather sealing


Since I work with computers since childhood, I can assure you the loudest parts and the first ones to fail are exactly the cooling fans. The smaller the fan, the faster (louder) it needs to be to effectively cool. Also, don't forget the fan would introduce some micro-vibrations, and you know what that means for image sharpness.


----------



## snappy604 (Jul 14, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I don’t think you see the concern
> If the concerns are true then this is a disappointment for video users
> 
> imagine if the burst rate on your camera was limited by temperature. You would miss shots or change what you really wanted to do based on how warm your camera.
> ...



it's... a camera with strong video capabilities, but its a camera.. there are video cameras dedicated to video without these issues.. but they have other compromises and costs.


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 14, 2020)

TMHKR said:


> YouTubers are the ones to blame. Yes, you do have some reasonable people among them, but you also have a bunch of crazed millennials who believe they're entitled to deserve that one "perfect" camera that doesn't exist, and who multiply even the smallest drawbacks ten fold. Some of them genuinely believe R5 can only be used as a doorstop because of this.



And the phenomenon is not limited to hybrid mirrorless video. This unbelievably spoiled, entitled, "woe is me the world is not perfect" mentality permeates every aspect of life today. I cannot stand the nitpicking negativity of today's culture.

Trying to stay on topic and not stray into politics or another field: compare Tony and Chelsea crying about overheating while recording 8.2k oversampled 4k 30p to Potato Jet talking about what you can accomplish with a 'lowly' M50 or 80D at 1080p. Negativity gets clicks, it's click bait cocaine to this generation, so I understand why everyone does it. But I hate it and I would rather watch Potato Jet any day because he's happy, positive, and talking about what you can do rather than crying about what you cannot.


----------



## BillB (Jul 14, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Maybe Everyone needs to chill a little, reflect on if they got a little too excited and manage their expectations?



And where is the fun in that? Just get another bowl of popcorn.


----------



## jam05 (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Well that didn't actually say anything we didn't already know???
> 
> Canon need to manufactures an EF lens adapter with a fan to suck heat directly from the sensor for the long take video shooters.


Sure, you have the Official tables with a bit more information than what has previously been floating around and paraphrased. And if recording some unusual scene longer than 30 minutes one can make appropriate plans.


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 14, 2020)

TMHKR said:


> Some of them genuinely believe R5 can only be used as a doorstop because of this.



Also: Canon has completely BLOWN IT with the doorstop market because the R5 is not heavy enough to hold larger doors against high winds. The Canon cripple hammer strikes again. Lots of people in the stills/video/doorstop hybrid market are going to abandon Canon over this and go straight to a manufacturer with heavier bodies. Canon is *******!!!


----------



## Besisika (Jul 14, 2020)

nighthawk82 said:


> Again, real world scenarios. Would you really need to shoot 30 SECONDS of 120fps footage, for 2 hours? Firstly, the entire point of 120FPS is recording extremely short scenes for slow mo reproduction. Think Mythbusters... high speed camera to record an instant of time. If you're recording 30 seconds of continuous 120fps, I think you're already in a minority (I think even 15 seconds is pushing it). Needing to do it constantly for 2 hours (I can understand 2 or 3 retakes of an action scene... but 2 hours?) then yeah... a C500 is more up your alley.
> 
> One real world scenario I can think of... wanting to record cars drifting round a corner in slow mo. Ok... first of all... each scene is less than 10 seconds long (including lead in and lead out times). Secondly, in 15 minutes you can record 90 cars drifting around the corner before you need to take a break. Isn't that enough for a STILLS camera? If you need to record more than that, once again, it's like trying to make a Morris Minor do 300kph and log a record at Nurburgring. There are pieces of equipment DESIGNED for that sort of abuse.


Me, personally, no. My shooting style doesn't need to shoot that much slow mo. 
You are right, I shoot 10sec clips 3-4 times, think about my strategy and result for 2-3min, move to next subject then shoot again. On the 1DX II, I can even take my 4K60s with a CF card and rely entirely on the camera's buffer. I bought only a 256GB Cfast last year.

However, I had a friend who manually shoots products and does it over and over again until he is happy with one take, then moves to the next step.
Yes, he is among the minority. He uses my 256GB Cfast a lot more often than me.


----------



## AEWest (Jul 14, 2020)

For those who complained that Canon was focussing on video too much for the R5, this overheating issues shows that Canon compromised in favour of stills photographers. 

By keeping out cooling fan and maintaing small camera size, there were always going to be thermal limitations with uncropped UHD video. However the current design strikes a good balance for a hybrid camera.


----------



## jam05 (Jul 14, 2020)

PeterParker said:


> Perhaps I'm just a crazy fanboy, but this seems... entirely reasonable and not at all out of step with what I expected? Not only that, but I actually think Canon's transparency on the matter is enormously refreshing? Am I the insane one here?
> 
> I am usually very quick to criticize large companies who fail to meet expectations or pull some pseudo bait-and-switch nonsense, but I genuinely don't believe the outsized criticism of these heat "issues" is warranted. The R5 is not -- and was never advertised as -- a C500 replacement. The spec sheet, even including these high end recording limitations, is more than I possibly could have asked for 6 months ago. What were others who are more critical honestly expecting? (This is not a pejorative statement by the way, I'm genuinely curious -- if you're disappointed by this, what were your expectations?)


Anyone that has expectation for an electronic device to function continuously without cooling has unusual expectations. Videographers are constantly complaining about fan noise. Their prime concern. They would prefer to limit the scene to 15 minutes than deal with constant fan noise.


----------



## Lt Colonel (Jul 14, 2020)

Viggo said:


> If you can afford enough CFE memory to run into the heat limits all the time, you can afford a Cinema camera


That's what I was thinking. I don't shoot video or really have plans to, so I'm way out of my element here, but exactly how much space would you need to hit the theoretical limit on on the chart in 8k? What would a card that size cost if it existed?


----------



## jam05 (Jul 14, 2020)

Rather limit my recording to 20 minutes than have constant fan noise due to such a tiny device. Heck my slim Surface Pro and XPS 13 have fans. And they're quite loud at times.


----------



## jam05 (Jul 14, 2020)

Thanks Canon. Rather have the real explanation than expect them to write code for a firmware update to delete the overheat warning like another mirrorless company did.


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 14, 2020)

VegasCameraGuy said:


> B&H just shipped my 24-70mm F2.8L but still waiting on my R5 to see how hot it really gets.



So hot that B&H has to ship it in special packaging which uses the same material they used on the space shuttle tiles. And that's when it's not even recording!


----------



## cornieleous (Jul 14, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> And the phenomenon is not limited to hybrid mirrorless video. This unbelievably spoiled, entitled, "woe is me the world is not perfect" mentality permeates every aspect of life today. ..........
> 
> ....[talk] about what you can do rather than crying about what you cannot.



You nailed it. These people are blowing my mind with how non-constructive and detached from reality they can be. Oddly I rarely see any of the whiners making amazing stills or video because they are too busy complaining. The R5 and R6 are amazing stills cameras that are in line with their predecessor pricing, with bonus incredible video features.


----------



## Skux (Jul 14, 2020)

Glad they released the figures so that people know what they're getting into.

Funny how 8k didn't even exist on consumer cameras until now and now that it does it's the worst thing ever. Looking at you, Sony Northrup.


----------



## AEWest (Jul 14, 2020)

Skux said:


> Glad they released the figures so that people know what they're getting into.
> 
> Funny how 8k didn't even exist on consumer cameras until now and now that it does it's the worst thing ever. Looking at you, Sony Northrup.


The funny thing is that Tony just released a video review of the Fuji XT-4. Problem aside from AF: overheating! Anywhere from 8.5 minutes to 13 minutes.

Apparently Fuji is not immune to the laws of physics either, no matter how much internet whining there is.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 14, 2020)

8K footage, looks like the exported bitrate was low but still interesting to watch. Read the description and he points to over heating but also talks about the limitation of workflow of 8K.


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 14, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> And the phenomenon is not limited to hybrid mirrorless video. This unbelievably spoiled, entitled, "woe is me the world is not perfect" mentality permeates every aspect of life today. I cannot stand the nitpicking negativity of today's culture.
> 
> Trying to stay on topic and not stray into politics or another field: compare Tony and Chelsea crying about overheating while recording 8.2k oversampled 4k 30p to Potato Jet talking about what you can accomplish with a 'lowly' M50 or 80D at 1080p. Negativity gets clicks, it's click bait cocaine to this generation, so I understand why everyone does it. But I hate it and I would rather watch Potato Jet any day because he's happy, positive, and talking about what you can do rather than crying about what you cannot.



The tragedy of that video is it's a perfectly fine message! If video is important, probably want to wait for a review. Due to COVID, there was no hands on time at the launch and so info is pretty thin.

But then they had Chelsea come out and play up this petulant/whiny attitude on camera? I've watched a lot of their videos and she is usually quite the opposite of this: measured, professional, approaches things from the point of view of a working photographer. TBH I felt kind of gross/embarrassed watching that segment and turned it off the second time she was like "but whyyyyyy." Felt way, way forced.


----------



## rbielefeld (Jul 14, 2020)

john1970 said:


> As a still shooters who hopes to use the 8K RAW at 30 fps to grab frames of fast moving subjects I am not too concerned with the recording limits. I would likely only use the function for 20-30 seconds at a time and can work within the limitations.


Therein lies the point. These cameras are tools just like any other. All tools have limitations. Use the tools within their limitations. If you want/need 8K unlimited shooting capabilities the R5 is not the tool for you. It is as simple as that. At least the options are available in the camera to do 8k and 4k120 and 4k60 and 4k30. With limitations, but they are available. So many people wanted Canon to push the limits like Sony has been doing. Well, they are pushing the limits. They put 8K video in a body that costs less than 4K USD. Don't poo poo them now for innovating. Personally, I shoot short clips and I love the fact I will be able to shoot 1-5 minute 8K videos that I can edit together with still images to make short videos to promote my tours, etc. I can't wait to gets this body in my hands and give it a go.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 14, 2020)

I don't suspect my shooting style will be susceptible to overheating. I shoot in short clips. I also typically shoot in FHD and IPB the majority of the time. I didn't like the crop in 4K for regular shooting on the EOS R, and didn't like the large file sizes on the 5DMkIV. I will probably try to shoot in 4K now that the codec is fine and the crop is gone. Although, I can still see myself using 1080p.

8K is going to be a specialty thing for extra reach, and giving me the ability to 4X zoom/pan with no loss of resolution in 4K... and even 8X zoom with no loss of resolution in FHD. I'm actually super curious about the latter. I actually look forward to doing the whole "Enhance!" joke.
The 4K120P is what I'm super excited about because the High Frame Rate modes in previous Canon's were mostly unusable to me because of the soft and grainy looking 720p and lack of autofocus.
For both of these specialty features I have no intent on filming longer than a brief moment. The 120P will likely be less than a minute. And the 8K will probably top out at 5 minutes.

I'm happy with IPB for the majority of things so I may not ever see it overheat ever. lol. If I were going to make the decision to use All-I, oversampled 4K, or extensively use 8K... this is going to be for a planned shoot. I would be story-boarding, account for time of day for lighting, etc... so I would likely have to include the heat management in the planning and execution. I'd probably pack a cooler w/ ice packs.

I can see at the worst, wedding videographers maybe having the biggest legitimate gripe. If it were me, I would honestly shoot in the lower quality 4K24p with the occasional 60FPS for slo-motion, because then I'd have unlimited shooting time and I don't think my clients are going to be able to tell the difference. If they were distinguishing clients who wanted amazing footage, then it's going to cost them. I would need to rent the proper gear for the job in that case.

The outrage is funny to me, because even on both ends of the spectrum, nobody has had the final production model in hand and people are speaking as if their viewpoint is fact. You're just going to have to use it for yourself in your specific use case or at least wait until it gets real world reviews. I fully intend on testing if I have overheating problems for my work flow. And even if it does, I already have measures in mind. My favorite is finding a convenience store and throwing the R5 in a refrigerator for a couple minutes.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 14, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> I fully intend on testing if I have overheating problems for my work flow. And even if it does, I already have measures in mind. My favorite is finding a convenience store and throwing the R5 in a refrigerator for a couple minutes.


I like it, I might finally be able to use the cooled seat in my Range Rover that my wife refuses to allow me to turn on because she is always cold


----------



## exige24 (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve Dmark2 said:


> If you have concerns, so wait with the pre order until an dependent reviewers have done their reviews. If you already have pre-ordered, too bad



*Takes Steves advice* *Camera turns out to be a game changer with some caveats* *Waits six months to get your R5*

Too bad. Haha


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 14, 2020)

Ramage said:


> 8K footage, looks like the exported bitrate was low but still interesting to watch. Read the description and he points to over heating but also talks about the limitation of workflow of 8K.


Amazing, I didn't know you could publish to 8K on YouTube. He says only 1080p, but it gives me the option to select 8K.

And here I am watching it in the corner of my 1080p work monitor.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> ZERO (in caps) in my 6 years of using RED. I generally prefer Alexia but use RED often because of fps availability and smaller form factor.


And I have a nearly 20 year old EF 50 f1.4 that focuses perfectly at f1.4 and is sharper than the 100 L macro at f5.6 and beyond and despite rolling around in a camera bag almost all that near 20 years has never had an AF or durability issue, in fact it has never had an issue of any kind. But that isn’t most peoples experience of that model lens.

Maybe you and I are just the lucky outliers.


----------



## PureClassA (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Never used an external recorder so can you just record the output of the HDMI feed without ever pressing record on the camera?


My experience is with the ATOMOS products. I have a Ninja V and my new Shogun 7 will arrive today to go with my R6. So I'm speaking for Atomos machines. 

You start and stop recording ON the external. This is why you see people talk about having a "Clean HDMI Out". Once you set the camera menu to the format you want (HD, 4K, 24p, 30p, 60p, etc...) and set your exposure. You're done. The Ninja V has a switch in the touch screen menu where you can tell it to auto detect Camera input, and in my EOS R case, the Ninja V see the 10 bit C-Log 422 coming in and adjust parameters for it instantly, provided of course you have engaged the 10 bit C-Log in the EOS R menu.

It could NOT be any easier. And with now going into CF Express Cards to get 4K60, you'll spend $600 on a couple 256MB cards - OR- You can spend $600 on a Ninja V and get 10 times more functionality and then spend $100 on a fast 1000MB (1TB) SSD... all while recording in ProResHQ which is a much smoother codec to edit in


----------



## Richard Anthony (Jul 14, 2020)

We never had this issue back in the film days , you bought a camera to take photos and that was it , I know technology moves forward but people expect too much these days .


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 14, 2020)

Since HDMI is capped to 4K60, I wonder if it's possible that a future firmware update would let the R5 output 8K or 4K120 via the USB-C port? Then you'd need Atomos to make a nice little 8K recorder.


----------



## PureClassA (Jul 14, 2020)

crazyrunner33 said:


> The EOS R used a 1:1 4K crop to reduce overheating. The sensor readout for the R5 is a bit more of a challenge. It's the reason the Nikon Z7 and Sony A7RIII had to line skip instead of oversample like their lower megapixel counterparts.


True, but bear in mind, if the recording, and thereby the encoding, is taking place OFF camera, you are cutting the processor load (and heat) DRAMATICALLY. 

That's one of the whole reasons to use externals, ESPECIALLY in smaller cameras like this. If I record internally in my EOS R, I don't think I'd even get an hour out the battery. Maybe 30-45 mins if that. Same battery, same camera, same everything, but recording externally? I shot almost 2 hours straight (ONE shot) and the LPE6N still had 30%-40% on it. (LCD screen closed and off... cuz... who needs it with a monitor unless you have to AF track)

So that right there tells you how much power and thereby heat are being consumed and generated respectively by the CPU JUST when you're asking it to do recording/encoding internally.

I'm actually THRILLED Canon left IN the oversampling feature instead of nixing it altogether because of the internal recording thermal issues. Because the camera CAN do it, but it's best to use an external device with it's own dedicated CPU and power source to handle that heavy lifting.

Oh? You wanna do it IN camera too? OK!! But you gotta respect the laws of physics and the principals of thermodynamics. Camera gonna get HOT and you'll be limited. But hey, those modes that might cause trouble INTERNALLY? Eh, almost no one ever records a SINGLE SHOT in those particular modes long enough to create that problem... unless you are deliberately trying to over heat it .... or have some BIZARRE needs... or you just don't know what you're doing... (and your internal card probably would have LONG run outta space before)

Otherwise, get a damn Shogun 7 or a Ninja V...


----------



## PureClassA (Jul 14, 2020)

I'll say this to sum up. I seriously doubt that anyone buying these cameras to use them primarily for serious video purposes (like me, I got the R6) are at all bothered by this "issue" because they are likely, mostly using external recording means, which would almost assuredly negate this whole thing.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I'll say this to sum up. I seriously doubt that anyone buying these cameras to use them primarily for serious video purposes (like me, I got the R6) are at all bothered by this "issue" because they are likely, mostly using external recording means, which would almost assuredly negate this whole thing.


I am appalled that I am only limited to 15 minute 4K120p recording.

120 FPS on a 24 FPS timeline is 5 times speed reduction.

So that translates to 75 minutes of slow motion video. There goes my allusions of making feature film length b-roll youtube videos.


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## davidhfe (Jul 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I'll say this to sum up. I seriously doubt that anyone buying these cameras to use them primarily for serious video purposes (like me, I got the R6) are at all bothered by this "issue" because they are likely, mostly using external recording means, which would almost assuredly negate this whole thing.



This is a dangerous assumption. The on chip information processing, read circuitry, and ADC are all big sources of heat. I don't think the encoding is what's at fault here, otherwise you wouldn't see unlimited (well, thermally) times in the binning and 1:1 modes. Would love to be wrong, as it'd solve the most important (oversampled 4K24/30 and 4K60) issues. An external recorder still won't give you 8K RAW nor 4K 120.


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> I am so blessed to have filmed using 400ft rolls on 35mm cameras. My left index finger would be on the on/off switch all the time. If we all learn that, the camera will not overheat, nor will the HDD get overloaded, nor will we spend hours sorting footage in edit. Of course, when we need to roll continuously we have 4k modes that do not overhead. I just do not see the problem here.



Nice story, and I heard stories about the Pony Express.

Now FF to 2020


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 14, 2020)

Kit. said:


> So, for the R5, both line-skipped FF 4K30 and oversampled APS-C 4K30 have no heat issues?
> 
> Which means, in video mode it's actually no worse than any other weather-sealed mirrorless camera with stills ergonomics?



Yes, and that means it looks like the thermals are basically where everyone else is right now.

The two modes it doesn't overheat are actually the same two modes I shoot in all the time for long events, etc. I'm either shooting 4K24 FF or using a mapped hotkey to switch to a S35 crop for a bit of extra reach when needed. You don't always get time for a lens swap in certain situations. I've read that it may overheat in these binned/cropped modes as well if the ambient temperature rises, but my Sony's aren't unlimited in 4K recording either. I've gotten the A7III to overheat under the sun in FF (which is oversampled from 6K) after about 90mins, but I've never gotten the A7RIII to overheat ever in any situation (since it is binned in FF and oversampled from 5K in S35 which I only sporadically use). This is why my A7III is always with the gimbal operator and I'm usually with the A7RIII covering the speeches, speakers, etc.

That being said, the new Canon R5/R6 shoot at a higher bitrate and bit-depth than all of the Sony's on the market. I think Canon played its cards right this time. If you think about it, it has achieved product segmentation from its cinema line without the need to reduce or exclude features. Both the thermals and retaining the 29:59 limit won't appear to be purposeful "crippling" so to speak. In fact, the R5 includes headlining features like 8K and RAW which nobody else has and is a big marketing win. It goes a long way in breaking the negative press cycle of Canon's "cripple hammer" approach.

When Sony releases their A7SIII which will be limited to probably 4K120, no internal RAW, but unlimited recording in all modes, casual observers will see the R5 w/ 45MP+8K+INTERNAL RAW and compare it with the A7SIII w/ 12MP+4K+ONLY 422 INTERNAL and quickly see who the "victor" is. Whether or not either camera is actually better will really depend on how you shoot. IMO, neither approach is right or wrong. 

On that same note, I don't agree that us who do a lot of video work on MILCs should just "Get a cinema camera.." The form factor, size and weight are entirely different and thus the production gear to support those cameras are much larger. I can pack a mini motorized slider, 3 axis timelapse moco, dji gimbal, 2 bodies and a few primes and batteries all in a Peak design backpack. For the types of work that support this type of loadout, I will also never shoot RAW and rather have a lighter weight codec that can reduce time in post and minimize storage and archival requirements.

For pre-planned content, docs and narratives, I shoot those on my RED where I can afford the 15-20 secs it takes to boot-up, the need to blackshade at different settings and ambient temps and takes v-mounts that only run 80mins or so. The menus are also complex and laggy to the point there is an iOS app (Donna Pro) that simulates the menu for DPs and ACs to practice on. Also depending on the compression ratio, minimags can fill up exceptionally quick, but a DIT is usually backing up and cycling mags. 

MILCs can do a bit of everything. It can do a bit of ENG/EFP work like a C200/C300 but with better AF and IBIS for handheld work, but doesn't have a great audio section, NDs or ergonomics like on body controls, etc. It can also do a bit pre-planned/narrative work in the realm of cine cameras with a larger sensor for better noise control and artistic DoF control, but as a result of its design limitations, are heat limited affecting shooting time because it needs to balance stills resolution. Some of this is a limit of the tech available and some of this is artificially imposed as a result of product segmentation from manufacturers.

Years ago, when the hybrid market was just getting off its feet, many of us were just discovering the equipment and workflows that suited shooting video on a MILC. But today, most of us in that market do have a clue and have found good solutions in the market (not always Canon) that fit that a video use case that isn't always "get a cinema camera". What that means is, in the past, I would need a stills body, an ENG camcorder and a cinema camera to cover 3 different types of situations. Nowadays, with compromises, A person can sometimes cover all 3 with 1 and specifically in my case, I can cover stills and ENG work with MILCs and leave shooting projects where I want RAW on a cinema camera. The real question is where you want those compromises. For myself I will mostly be going with the A7SIII only because the limitations on the R5 are an absolute deal-breaker for the type of shooting I want MILCs for and it isn't because I need a "cinema camera.." because I already have one and it isn't necessarily the best choice either.


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## davidhfe (Jul 14, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> Since HDMI is capped to 4K60, I wonder if it's possible that a future firmware update would let the R5 output 8K or 4K120 via the USB-C port? Then you'd need Atomos to make a nice little 8K recorder.



You'd need alternate display mode if you're sending video signals in a way an Atmos could pickup. I'd be surprised if the embedded USB C controller supports that. You're still limited by the heat generated from the sensor.

(I would be much more interested in writing directly to a fast 2TB SSD over USB-C)


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## PureClassA (Jul 14, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> I am appalled that I am only limited to 15 minute 4K120p recording.
> 
> 120 FPS on a 24 FPS timeline is 5 times speed reduction.
> 
> So that translates to 75 minutes of slow motion video. There goes my allusions of making feature film length b-roll youtube videos.


I know right?!?!? We got screwed!!!!!!


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 14, 2020)

Nelu said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope. Like this: Panasonic DC-S1H


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 14, 2020)

sanj said:


> Not true anymore
> Not true anymore private. I have shot 2 features, 5 music videos with RED. They are rock-solid reliable.


Wow, you used it 7 times and that's verifies overall reliability. Forget about the hundreds of other RED cameras out there.


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## davidhfe (Jul 14, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> On that same note, I don't agree that us who do a lot of video work on MILCs should just "Get a cinema camera.." The form factor, size and weight are entirely different and thus the production gear to support those cameras are much larger. I can pack a mini motorized slider, 3 axis timelapse moco, dji gimbal, 2 bodies and a few primes and batteries all in a Peak design backpack. For the types of work that support this type of loadout, I will also never shoot RAW and rather have a lighter weight codec that can reduce time in post and minimize storage and archival requirements.



I have been guilty of the "get a cinema camera" line, and I wish all the folks on video forums were as reasonable as you are. I think a lot of us stills-focused people just find ourselves at _wits end_ when video users are holding up cameras like sigma fp as an example of the innovation canon must deliver. I would love Canon to build specialized cameras for every person, but at some point folks need to either buy what's put on offer or look elsewhere—be it a cinema cam or a MILC that's more video-focused.

(I can just imagine canon releasing a sigma fp. No IBIS! Only 24mp! Doesn't even include a hot shoe! Canon isn't listening!)


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## Nelu (Jul 14, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Nope. Like this: Panasonic DC-S1H


I don’t see anything about 8K video there but if that’s the one that fits your needs just click the “Buy” button, that camera is already available.


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## PureClassA (Jul 14, 2020)

Oh look! My new Anti-Overheating device just arrived in the mail!


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> This is a dangerous assumption. The on chip information processing, read circuitry, and ADC are all big sources of heat. I don't think the encoding is what's at fault here, otherwise you wouldn't see unlimited (well, thermally) times in the binning and 1:1 modes. Would love to be wrong, as it'd solve the most important (oversampled 4K24/30 and 4K60) issues. An external recorder still won't give you 8K RAW nor 4K 120.


I see both your points. So It's a matter of which is the bigger culprit of the heating? Is it the in camera recording? Or is it the higher resolution/framerate bitrates being generated? We just don't know until it's put into practice.

I do lean towards it being the recording, so I suspect the external recorder being a viable option. But this is only because I've tested video streams to OBS for super long periods without heating being an issue. That's obviously different as I've never used the higher bitrate 8K and 4K so it could be moot. But there's something to be said about what PureClassA said, " I shot almost 2 hours straight (ONE shot) and the LPE6N still had 30%-40% on it. "

Even with the caveat of turning off the displays (which is what makes sense to do anyway), the lower battery consumption make it reasonable to assume less heat being generated. Looking forward to seeing the results.


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## TMHKR (Jul 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Oh? You wanna do it IN camera too? OK!! But you gotta respect the laws of physics and the principals of thermodynamics.


The thing here is that some YouTube "professionals" claim to know every single aspect of video production, but feel like they don't have to know jack sh** about electronics. Anyway, I skimmed through their profiles - yep, hardly a shooter at all, let alone a professional.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 14, 2020)

I just closed and deleted my DPreview account and won't visit any rumour site anymore. All is just a playground of kids.


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## Gazwas (Jul 14, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Oh look! My new Anti-Overheating device just arrived in the mail!
> View attachment 191348
> View attachment 191349


Extremely interested in your findings using the new R's with the Shogun 7 (or Ninja V).

Please start a new forum topic when your camera arrives rather than burying it here as external recording could be a great solution for 4K60p.


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## Nelu (Jul 14, 2020)

TMHKR said:


> The thing here is that some YouTube "professionals" claim to know every single aspect of video production, but feel like they don't have to know jack sh** about electronics. Anyway, I skimmed through their profiles - yep, hardly a shooter at all, let alone a professional.


Well yeah, if you don’t know your stuff, start teaching others. Who knows, they might not even notice...


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## privatebydesign (Jul 14, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> I just closed and deleted my DPreview account and won't visit any rumour site anymore. All is just a playground of kids.


Do you not see the irony of that post on a rumors site?


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> You'd need alternate display mode if you're sending video signals in a way an Atmos could pickup. I'd be surprised if the embedded USB C controller supports that. You're still limited by the heat generated from the sensor.
> 
> (I would be much more interested in writing directly to a fast 2TB SSD over USB-C)


Yeah, I'm wondering if the actual controller in the camera is up to snuff. There is something to it though because Canon has been outputting display via the USB port using the new EOS Webcam Utility Beta. If it is, it'd be perfectly viable as there are USB-C to Display Port adapters. And I'm sure it's a device Atomos could develop using a straight USB-C to USB-C transfer if the R5 could put it out.

It again goes back to what is generating the heat. I don't think a direct write to SSD would mitigate heat problems. I do agree though on the interest. That would be so much more economical than recording to CFExpress cards, and am 100% with you on that.


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## Aussie shooter (Jul 14, 2020)

TomR said:


> questions unanswered:
> 
> How is over heating effected with different ambient temps? from switching from stills mode to video?
> 
> ...


It is not unanswered. They said the camera will give you an estimated record time depending on current status. They cant exactly give you a chart with every single variable though but it should be obvious that as temps get hotter the record time will be lessened. Whetherit is a linear relationship however? Wait untill you hear some real world reports


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 14, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I like it, I might finally be able to use the cooled seat in my Range Rover that my wife refuses to allow me to turn on because she is always cold


lol. Cooled seats are the best, have them in my Q5. And Be careful. Your wife might like the R5 if it keeps her warm. More time warming her hands means less time shooting for you.


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## PureClassA (Jul 14, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> This is a dangerous assumption. The on chip information processing, read circuitry, and ADC are all big sources of heat. I don't think the encoding is what's at fault here, otherwise you wouldn't see unlimited (well, thermally) times in the binning and 1:1 modes. Would love to be wrong, as it'd solve the most important (oversampled 4K24/30 and 4K60) issues. An external recorder still won't give you 8K RAW nor 4K 120.


I’m just relaying personal experience. There’s a big, very obvious difference in power consumption (and in turn, heat generation) when recording externally vs internally on my EOS R.

My 1DX2 gets notably hotter recording 4k24 (only available internally) vs my EOS R doing the same format but with external Ninja V. The LPE6N battery in the R will almost EQUAL or OUTLAST the LP-E19 in the 1DX2 in that situation... which is NUTS.

So, based on that, I can reasonably determine just how much power is being consumed by encoding and recording, and thereby heat.

In addition, I have a MacPro that will fan blast and heat up like a stove when encoding is happening in Adobe Premier.

Recording/Encoding video is an extremely power/heat intensive process.


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## exige24 (Jul 14, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Canon spent the last six months almost exclusively promoting the video capabilities of this camera. Which part of that do some of you fail to comprehend?


Lol What an inane take. The 8k footage in every other camera overheats in 0 min.


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## miken (Jul 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> So, for stills only, doesn't look like anyone can find any flaws? I know, still early.


Well if you buy it for stills only, your lashing out two grand or more on video specs that you don't want. Which is precisely why I'm not overly enamoured with it.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 14, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Do you not see the irony of that post on a rumors site?



No, i don't. Except this one because it's a more civilised one.


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## PureClassA (Jul 14, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Extremely interested in your findings using the new R's with the Shogun 7 (or Ninja V).
> 
> Please start a new forum topic when your camera arrives rather than burying it here as external recording could be a great solution for 4K60p.


I’ll be happy to! But I will say that I have never once anyone complaining about problems recording any capable format externally. So I would bet good money right here and now that using an external recorder would almost completely eliminate (if not completely) any issues of overheating in formats capable of being send off camera... which in this case in 4k is 60p


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## SteveC (Jul 14, 2020)

miken said:


> Well if you buy it for stills only, your lashing out two grand or more on video specs that you don't want. Which is precisely why I'm not overly enamoured with it.



Not necessarily. At least part of that cost is for the sensor and fast readout speed. In fact, I suspect that had they not been interested in developing video, neither of those stills-useful features would be in this camera.

[Yes, this is the thousandth time someone has had to point this out to people who assume video adds huge $$$$ to the price of a camera with no benefit to stills shooters.]


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## Bert63 (Jul 14, 2020)

miken said:


> Well if you buy it for stills only, your lashing out two grand or more on video specs that you don't want. Which is precisely why I'm not overly enamoured with it.



I’m buying mine for stills, and maybe I’ll shoot a little video with it if the mood strikes. I actually used my EOS-R to shoot a little video today just because of all the discussion about video around here the last couple of days.

Meh.

If it’s true that you can get 35MP stills out of an 8K clip that are decent then maybe I’ll do it a little more on the R5. Certainly I’ll never come anywhere near the well-published “OH MY GOD SHE’S MELTING DOWN” limit and if for some reason I do it’s not like I haven’t been warned.

If you adjust for inflation the R5 costs about the same as the 5D4 did at launch. For that you get a fantastic stills camera that destroys the 5D4 in every single category PLUS you get a video camera that can do a whole bunch of other things most of us won’t use much at all.

You say ‘lashing out two grand or more’ on video specs you don’t want - pardon me, but I have to toss the BS flag on that. Show me another stills camera from any other manufacturer that you can get for less money than the R5 that does what the R5 can - much less for ’two grand or more’ less..

That camera doesn’t exist.

Think about what the 5D4 could do and what it cost at launch. Now adjust for inflation and look at the price of the R5. My 5D4 cost me $3586 including tax In 2016. My R5 preorder cost me just $114 more out the door.

That’s not a bargain, that’s a steal. Even if it did no video AT ALL it’s a steal.


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## PureClassA (Jul 15, 2020)

exige24 said:


> Lol What an inane take. The 8k footage in every other camera overheats in 0 min.


THIS


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## Bert63 (Jul 15, 2020)

exige24 said:


> Lol What an inane take. The 8k footage in every other camera overheats in 0 min.



lololololol


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> These rumors are not what I expect from a canon professional camera from a quality standpoint. So here to hoping it’s all fuss and no substance.



If the official statement from Canon is all fuss and no substance, then what isn't?


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## Jethro (Jul 15, 2020)

I've said it before, but is this really the only issue people have with the specs (they're all specs because no-one has reviewed a production version yet)? I can remember not all that long ago people were reacting with disbelief about 8k being available at all (let alone uncropped) partly because of … heat issues! Or that the EOS R only had cropped 4k capability. Now 8k is (world first) available for an extended period , and the inevitable (laws of physics) heat issues are recognised and addressed by the camera telling you how long you have left to shoot. 

I understand people wanting to tease out exactly what the video limits of the camera are, but presenting them as somehow a disappointment strikes me as negativity. But we're talking about the _limits _of the new class-leading camera. Everything has limits - including obviously everyone's patience.


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## Bert63 (Jul 15, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> I just closed and deleted my DPreview account and won't visit any rumour site anymore. All is just a playground of kids.



I was over at FStoppers yesterday (I drove fast and didn’t roll down the windows) and I was really disappointed in the tone of the conversations and the interaction between members. I’ve never joined, only lurked, but dang and yikes.


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## davidhfe (Jul 15, 2020)

miken said:


> Well if you buy it for stills only, your lashing out two grand or more on video specs that you don't want. Which is precisely why I'm not overly enamoured with it.





SteveC said:


> Not necessarily. At least part of that cost is for the sensor and fast readout speed. In fact, I suspect that had they not been interested in developing video, neither of those stills-useful features would be in this camera.
> 
> [Yes, this is the thousandth time someone has had to point this out to people who assume video adds huge $$$$ to the price of a camera with no benefit to stills shooters.]



The original 5D, which did not have video capabilities of any kind, launched at over $4000 in 2020 dollars. Doesn't sound like Canon is driving up the cost with video features. The 5Dmk2 was the least expensive of the 5 series, and it launched the whole DSLR video thing.

And if you're after cost reductions, you can get a camera that blows the 5D out of the water in terms of shooting performance and IQ with the R or RP, which are like 1/3 the price of that original 5D.

Edit: I would add the 5D4 is actual a clear example of a place where Canon didn't think much about the video. Video modes were a definite afterthought on that one. It's a overall strong performer, but it hasn't aged super well, especially in terms of speed and autofocus—both features that share sensor and processor needs with video. Launch price in 2020 dollars? Around $3750.


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## cornieleous (Jul 15, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Usual dopey comments by stills shooters who would never accept a stills camera that overheats under normal operating conditions but thinks it’s perfectly fine that video cameras do.
> Of course other manufactures cameras don’t overheat under normal conditions but let’s not let reality burst our our feel good bubble.
> You can’t make this stuff up. I have to find something better to do with my time.




Insulting stills photographers and asserting yourself as somehow the one who gets it and the rest of us are missing the point is a GREAT way to present yourself. Very objective and intelligent. It does reveal you are emotional, and completely ignorant of anything to do with the underlying technology while having a really loud opinion. There is nothing normal about 8K or oversampled high bitrate 4K in a MILC, it is just now barely possible. The only people calling it normal operation and acting like there is a problem are 100% unreasonable. Did you bash Sony when their first in class cameras were overheating? I am just curious... did you act like you were personally slighted by their unusable brick? Or did you understand then that technology evolves over time and the first instance is never perfect because it is NEW?

What amazing brand are you currently shooting high bitrate 8K or oversampled 4K that 'just works'? List all these wonderful manufacturers. Are you going to pay 700 bucks for enough memory card to shoot 8K for even the 20 minutes? Do you have a multi thousand dollar computer with enough cores, GPUs, SSDs, RAM to process that 8K workflow? Where are your 8K monitors? When is the last time you edited oversampled high bitrate full frame 4K60 of more than 30 minutes length? Can we see some of the projects you needed this for? Lets compare ACTUAL DATA RATES of all overheating cameras on the market so you can explain to us lowly simpletons how foolish we are. Clearly you are an expert in device physics, because anyone who knows about electronics (even the basics) knows transistors generate heat when they switch. The faster they are switching, the higher voltage and current a chip runs at, and the more of them, the hotter it gets. As such, higher rates of bits toggling is heat, and no camera brand is immune to it like you falsely state. The reason CPUs, GPUs, and every other type of ASIC or integrated circuit get so much better every couple years is because transistor voltage goes down, more are fit onto a chip with less power, and so capability vs. heat trends up- but you are clearly an expert in electronics and heat dissipation already so....

Why do you people insist on ignoring very basic PHYSICS? Or is it just that you are part of the perpetually offended crowd and nothing is ever good enough? Why ARE you wasting your time here if this camera, not even shipped yet, is such a brick of a failure?


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## Czardoom (Jul 15, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> ....Why do you people insist on ignoring very basic PHYSICS? Or is it just that you are part of the perpetually offended crowd and nothing is ever good enough? Why ARE you wasting your time here if this camera, not even shipped yet, is such a brick of a failure?



Because people are stupid.
Because people want a $10,000 camera for $3,899
Because people love to whine about things that won't actually be a problem.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 15, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> I was over at FStoppers yesterday *(I drove fast and didn’t roll down the windows)* and I was really disappointed in the tone of the conversations and the interaction between members. I’ve never joined, only lurked, but dang and yikes.


That got me, awesome


----------



## sanj (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Wow, you used it 7 times and that's verifies overall reliability. Forget about the hundreds of other RED cameras out there.


7? Guess you are clueless how long it takes to shoot a feature. Btw have you ever shot with a RED or are limited by second-hand knowledge? Suggestion: Google how many features that have been shot by RED and currently in production.


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## Bert63 (Jul 15, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> Because people are stupid.
> Because people want a $10,000 camera for $3,899å
> Because people l
> 
> ...


----------



## BeenThere (Jul 15, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> Because people are stupid.
> Because people want a $10,000 camera for $3,899
> Because people love to whine about things that won't actually be a problem.


Trolls are on a mission that has nothing to do with legitimate debate. Just ignore their posts and hopefully they will move on.


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## bhf3737 (Jul 15, 2020)

Come on guys. Canon has come from this configuration for 8K video in 2015 that had a setup that required nitrogen cooling system, a set of four external recorders in a box for recording and with fiber-optic connectivity to the camera that weighted more than 40kg to move 11 Tera-byte data per hour. 
Now in 2020 that whole gigantic system fits into the R5 camera and your right hand! That is a giant technology leap which needs to be praised rather than bashed and nagged and lashed and trashed.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 15, 2020)

sanj said:


> 7? Guess you are clueless how long it takes to shoot a feature. Btw have you ever shot with a RED or are limited by second-hand knowledge? Suggestion: Google how many features that have been shot by RED and currently in production.


People focus here, we are suppose to be either praising or bashing Canon Cameras. We can all focus on RED cameras next week


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## mppix (Jul 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> So, for stills only, doesn't look like anyone can find any flaws? I know, still early.


No in-body RF flash transmitter (does IR focus assist even work?) and flash sync speed is still 1/200


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## mppix (Jul 15, 2020)

pmjm said:


> Still unaddressed: Can you mitigate some of these heat concerns, at least at 4K60 and below, by using an external recorder? That way at least you're offloading the h.265 compression to an external unit.


Depends where the main heat problem is (sensor or chip).
Too bad they did not include HDMI2.1 ...


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I would add the 5D4 is actual a clear example of a place where Canon didn't think much about the video.



We've recently shot a movie/clip project on 5DIV with my daughter for her media school assignment.

The resulting footage was longer than all footage I've taken over the previous 4 years since I got the 5DIV.

I'll probably take a few minutes of 8K on the R5 once I've got it just to see how it's like.

I'm not telling people don't need unlimited 8K recording time. Probably some people do.

But it feels like many people here are just trying to work around their GAS by whining about the overheating problem. It's an ideal undeniable explanation on why they're not buying the R5...


----------



## reefroamer (Jul 15, 2020)

snappy604 said:


> and more parts to break


And dust being sucked into your camera body.


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## Jethro (Jul 15, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> Because people are stupid.
> Because people want a $10,000 camera for $3,899
> Because people love to whine about things that won't actually be a problem.


Not all of it is stupidity and avarice - some people are trying to tease out the limits of what is a new, exciting and heavily promoted technology. BUT, to do so on the basis that there is some sort of fundamental 'fail' going on is unhelpful from all points of view. 

The reality is that the answer to most people's questions will come in the detailed review testing that will happen when production models get into specialists' hands. That will happen soon. And as with all new technologies and features, there will be practical limits which will impact on how useful the video features will be in individual cases.

Speaking for myself, I'm much more interested in what the detailed reviews have to say about the IBIS, especially in conjunction with in-lens IS, EF / RF / 3rd party.


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## snappy604 (Jul 15, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> Yes, and that means it looks like the thermals are basically where everyone else is right now.
> 
> The two modes it doesn't overheat are actually the same two modes I shoot in all the time for long events, etc. I'm either shooting 4K24 FF or using a mapped hotkey to switch to a S35 crop for a bit of extra reach when needed. You don't always get time for a lens swap in certain situations. I've read that it may overheat in these binned/cropped modes as well if the ambient temperature rises, but my Sony's aren't unlimited in 4K recording either. I've gotten the A7III to overheat under the sun in FF (which is oversampled from 6K) after about 90mins, but I've never gotten the A7RIII to overheat ever in any situation (since it is binned in FF and oversampled from 5K in S35 which I only sporadically use). This is why my A7III is always with the gimbal operator and I'm usually with the A7RIII covering the speeches, speakers, etc.
> 
> ...



well laid out, sounds like experience. I was one that mentioned it is a camera with excellent video, but it's not a video camera. Agree, there are areas where MILCs shine and if you take the time to learn it's strengths it will be a fine camera for video.. If it isn't for you or you're not willing to adjust there are other products dedicated to video or .. you could buy several to deal with overheating ;-) (jesting.. sort of).


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## analoggrotto (Jul 15, 2020)

Has anyone seen the total trash pool that DPR has devolved into over these new cameras? It's less than a dozen people constantly slinging insults at one another repeating the same crap over and over again. I used to see this kind of stuff on automotive forums 15 years ago and would never have imagined that something as simple as an (expensive ass) camera would illicit such similar behaviour.


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## TAF (Jul 15, 2020)

How about cold? How well does the R5/6 deal with -40 temperatures? Is there a temperature where the heat dissipation from the camera balances with the environmental temperature and there is no overheating?

Maybe it will be fine for polar bear videos.


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## sdz (Jul 15, 2020)

frozengogo said:


> I work in the arctic and have to worry about my camera freezing. Now, with the R5, I won't need to go back inside to warm my camera, all I need to do is record 8k for a little bit. It might even serve as a nice hand warmer.



Once inside, you can fry eggs and bacon on it. Canon should market it as a multi-purpose tool for the landscape photographer.


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## cornieleous (Jul 15, 2020)

Ramage said:


> People focus here, we are suppose to be either praising or bashing Canon Cameras. We can all focus on RED cameras next week



Canon has red rings on their lenses so I am mad by association!


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## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> If I’m angry it’s because I and others have been unrelenting attacked for doing nothing more than asking reasonable questions about overheating. It clearly is a significant issue for many of us and I think it’s reasonable to want to understand the extent of the problem. If there wasn’t a problem Canon wouldn’t be issuing guidance.
> 
> Instead our comments have repeatedly been twisted and intentionally taken out of context in an effort to force us to defend comment We haven’t made. This has not gone unnoticed by myself and has significantly diminished my interest in participating in these forums.


That’s a twisted logic. The so called “issue” or “problem” you are referring to is there by design, documented and therefore is a limitation. Not a problem. You know, there are other limitations in our lives like for example : a speed limit restrictions on our roads. Man, I would love to travel at 160km/hour on any road. (100 miles /hour ) However there is a limit. That said, I fully envisage that a cooling EF to RF adapter will be made available relatively soon. It’s is such a great idea that I have no doubt that either Canon or a third party manufacturer will put something together rather quickly.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

TAF said:


> How about cold? How well does the R5/6 deal with -40 temperatures? Is there a temperature where the heat dissipation from the camera balances with the environmental temperature and there is no overheating?



True. But prepare a large CExpress storage. Once you're out of storage and it stops recording, the camera freezes for all eternity.


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 15, 2020)

Ramage said:


> People focus here, we are suppose to be either praising or bashing Canon Cameras. We can all focus on RED cameras next week



I think more people will be talking about RED soon that shoot video because of the upcoming Komodo that has an RF mount, a rumored Sony sensor, PDAF continuous AF, a global shutter and shoots up to 6K40 in R3D or ProRes and doesn't overheat  Also takes cfast cards and c100 batteries and doesn't need thousands of dollars in accessories to start shooting unlike a DSMC1-2 brain.


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## canonnews (Jul 15, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Usual dopey comments by stills shooters who would never accept a stills camera that overheats under normal operating conditions but thinks it’s perfectly fine that video cameras do.
> Of course other manufactures cameras don’t overheat under normal conditions but let’s not let reality burst our our feel good bubble.
> You can’t make this stuff up. I have to find something better to do with my time.



PSA. It's not a video camera. and btw, sony's have been prone to overheat with 4k30 un-oversampled at 100mb/s - but let's not let reality burst our feel good bubble.


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## canonnews (Jul 15, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


sucks to have overheating.

But you know - Sony never informed anyone to this amount of detail before release that their cameras had overheating issues. Did Fuji? the X-T4 overheats as well. I didn't see pitchforks and mass protests about that.

Life did go on, people actually used them for video. People worked around it.

Canon has overheating issues - the world stops.

I get that some are complaining that canon users are saying .. I don't see a problem here when we said there's a problem with sony. But;

the R5 is somewhat of a unique beast that is attempting video. The 4K oversampled is basically shooting at 8K and downsampling to 4k internally. we've never had a camera even come close to attempt that. 6K downsampling yes,. Not to mention, there hasn't been a small mirrorless hit these bitrates before either.

In the end of you are really wanting a video camera - there's better tools. They are surprisingly, actually called, video cameras. They are heat coold, ergonomic hunks of metal made to do the job.

I get there's a small niche that needs a) full frame b) 4k60 full width c) unlimited recording. Perhaps not a stills camera hybrid is the camera for you. at least for now.

What I think the problem is that some thought they could get the equivalent of a $20,000 cinema camera for $4,000 and are now bitter that their dreams didn't come true.

Lost in all this is that canon should be applauded still for pushing the boundaries on what is possible in an ILC. 8 Freaking Kay - is still a thing in for this camera, something quite a few didn't even think possible back in late January. (including me when I first wrote about it).


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## stevenrun34 (Jul 15, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> Well that didn't actually say anything we didn't already know???
> 
> Canon need to manufactures an EF lens adapter with a fan to suck heat directly from the sensor for the long take video shooters.


You know... that's not the craziest idea I've ever heard of. I bet someone will try it.


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## canonnews (Jul 15, 2020)

stevenrun34 said:


> You know... that's not the craziest idea I've ever heard of. I bet someone will try it.


like Canon may? 









Canon EOS R5 overheating - Is Canon working on this?


There have been reports (and mock outrage) over the 20 to 30-minute overheating limits on the EOS R5 video recording times. While typically the problem isn't doing a video continuously for 20 or 30 minutes, but the buildup of heat over time forcing the camera to shut down for a long period of...



www.canonnews.com


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## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Also: Canon has completely BLOWN IT with the doorstop market because the R5 is not heavy enough to hold larger doors against high winds. The Canon cripple hammer strikes again. Lots of people in the stills/video/doorstop hybrid market are going to abandon Canon over this and go straight to a manufacturer with heavier bodies. Canon is *******!!!


Nuh nuh nuh.... the gripped body looks the business!!


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## Drcampbellicu (Jul 15, 2020)

I don’t know why you’re rambling about “video production”
I bird, safari and scuba dive

On safari I might wait hours before I see what I’m interested in and then will shoot or video for quite sometime

eg I shot a cheetah kill. The video segments of the hunt, the eating and such were all 10 min or so segments. They were all back to back. I would not be able to just turn off my camera to cool it down.

Everyone does something different with their camera. This heating issue may or may not be an issue for folks. We will just have to see the actual reviews to get a sense of this



dtaylor said:


> That's just not how video production works. You're not continuously recording long clips. Run the same clip too long in any finished product and you will quickly lose your audience. If you pay attention to professional productions even long interviews involve short clips with slight scene changes and intermixed content so the viewer doesn't fall asleep.
> 
> Heat build up could be a concern for...
> 
> ...


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## Drcampbellicu (Jul 15, 2020)

I am primarily a photographer 
The disappointment is pretty obvious 
Many of us thought canon had truly aced the competition by introducing a camera with insane specs and no crippling
canon even made clear that the video specs were not limited in anyway before the official release.
But there maybe a subtle catch 
The thermal issues seem to be the rate limiting step

we will have to see the actual reviews to see how this plays out




SecureGSM said:


> how is that a disappointment? It sounds like video users are not being reasonable here.
> should still shooters start complaining that we are not being given 30fps mechanical shutter speed instead of “pedestrian” 12fps and “only“ 20 FPS electronic shutter? You guys seems to Be offered up to , what, 120FPS in some Of the R5 video modes?
> 
> unfair.. what a disappointment.. Not!


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## Drcampbellicu (Jul 15, 2020)

it’s the way the cameras were marketed
The video specs were the highlight and they seemed unreal...
We don’t really know how much of an issue this will be but the way that this camera was pitched is what’s causing the stir.

the R6 is even more appealing to me now given WHat we know now



YuengLinger said:


> I never knew that a full frame camera body was supposed to replace high-end video equipment. I see these bodies as perfect for supplementing and enhancing stories told with still photos. Whoever promised being able to make entire films with little full frame camera bodies? Or replacing something that costs 5x as much and more?


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 15, 2020)

Nelu said:


> I don’t see anything about 8K video there but if that’s the one that fits your needs just click the “Buy” button, that camera is already available.



You don't see overheating at 6K or even 4K in there. Nobody wants 8K anyway.


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## Nelu (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> You don't see overheating at 6K or even 4K in there. Nobody wants 8K anyway.


Suuure, you really must have great sources to know that...Can you share with us? Pretty please!!!


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## sanj (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> You don't see overheating at 6K or even 4K in there. Nobody wants 8K anyway.


hahaahaha. You funnyyyyy


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## vjlex (Jul 15, 2020)

mppix said:


> Depends where the main heat problem is (sensor or chip).
> Too bad they did not include HDMI2.1 ...


Has that been confirmed? Do you have a link? I wasn't able to find details on the HDMI version used.


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## Respinder (Jul 15, 2020)

I don’t see anything about 24p in Canon’s table - does it mean there is no overheating at 24p (8k/4K)?


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## SteveC (Jul 15, 2020)

sdz said:


> Once inside, you can fry eggs and bacon on it. Canon should market it as a multi-purpose tool for the landscape photographer.



Well, if you let it get hot enough, it can serve as a light, too.


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## korbar (Jul 15, 2020)

Respinder said:


> I don’t see anything about 24p in Canon’s table - does it mean there is no overheating at 24p (8k/4K)?


For sure 4K 24 doesn't. And this is really the primary setting a lot of video shooters will likely use for a brunt of their work. Me included.

I'm honestly surprised that I am surprised people are still talking about this. I'm a primary video shooter, and it really truly is a non-issue that the specialized codecs/settings have an upper limit for heat. Going to keep shaking my head all the way until my R5 arrives and I can go back to quietly enjoying making things. Hahaha


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## PureClassA (Jul 15, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> Because people want a $10,000 camera for $3,899


So So So wrong.... they want a $12,000 or $17,000 camera for $3899.... cuz that is what the C300Mk3 and C500Mk2 cost ..... and neither have 45MP and neither have IBIS


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## PureClassA (Jul 15, 2020)

canonnews said:


> PSA. It's not a video camera. and btw, sony's have been prone to overheat with 4k30 un-oversampled at 100mb/s - but let's not let reality burst our feel good bubble.


Exactly. Sony cameras could often double as a cattle branding iron while compressing files to compact hot garbage codecs. These same people never complained


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## PureClassA (Jul 15, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I don’t know why you’re rambling about “video production”
> I bird, safari and scuba dive
> 
> On safari I might wait hours before I see what I’m interested in and then will shoot or video for quite sometime
> ...


So dont record in 8k or the 4kHQ oversampled. Record in normal 4k. You’ll be fine. Or get an external recorder.


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## PureClassA (Jul 15, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I get there's a small niche that needs a) full frame b) 4k60 full width c) unlimited recording. Perhaps not a stills camera hybrid is the camera for you. at least for now.
> 
> What I think the problem is that some thought they could get the equivalent of a $20,000 cinema camera for $4,000 and are now bitter that their dreams didn't come true.


Agree with your statement but I am going to KEEP drilling home the external recording thing.

40K60 “unlimited” is absolutely possible with both The R5 and R6 if used with the proper professional equipment...... although no one can seem to offer any situation where anyone would shoot in such a format for THIRTY MINUTES STRAIGHT. ....

But if you need to? Buy one of these.



My R6 was on preorder the moment the link hit.


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 15, 2020)

Just a bunch of whiners that want to put in a penny and get a dollar song. Many are probably sitting in another camp jealous and spiteful as can be. Give me a break.

And I still have 4K60 that has performed without issue on the cheapest cards so I can smile.

Jack


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## bytebuster (Jul 15, 2020)

I am a current xt3 user and never realized that the overheating limits were even lower

https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-x-t4-vs-x-t3-overheating-tested/

Never ran into this probably because I typically shoot small clips (travel videos)


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 15, 2020)

bytebuster said:


> I am a current xt3 user and never realized that the overheating limits were even lower
> 
> https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-x-t4-vs-x-t3-overheating-tested/
> 
> Never ran into this probably because I typically shoot small clips (travel videos)


I think this is what most users would expect to get without overheating, short clips but some just can't wrap their head around the physics of heat transfer and generation. I guess we should be compassionate in dealing with those who are mentally challenged.

Jack


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## Cesar (Jul 15, 2020)

It's not hard to solve the overheating issue. You could attach the camera to something like a battery grip with a heat transfer pad in between or a thicker metal mount that will dissipate the heat from the camera body. The one thing I don't like about the overall specs is the 29.59min limit which I think is not related to the heat issue.


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## Cesar (Jul 15, 2020)

If Canon designed the R5 and R6 so that the heat from the processors or heat-generating components are efficiently transferred to the metal body, it will be so easy to dissipate the heat to external metal attachments. I'm sure there will soon be attachment like a battery grip with a fan inside to cool down the body.


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## degos (Jul 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> So, for stills only, doesn't look like anyone can find any flaws? I know, still early.



Umm, the fact that developing packing all that non-stills technology into it means that the camera costs over four thousand dollars?


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## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

Nelu said:


> I don’t see anything about 8K video there but if that’s the one that fits your needs just click the “Buy” button, that camera is already available.


Yeah, the following is the Micro 4/3 language for 80K/30 RAW and 4:2:2 10bit.  /S. 


MOV/H.265 4:2:0 10-Bit
6K 3:2 (5952 x 3968) at 23.976p/24.00p [200 Mb/s]


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## Bennymiata (Jul 15, 2020)

I remeber using a Sony camera that CONSTANTLY overheated when taking 4k video and it almost burned my hand.
The 30 minute limit is because of EU rules and the tax on video cameras versus still cameras.

I think the heat limits re 8k and 4k 120fps is remarkably good all things considered.


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## BigShooter (Jul 15, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The R has 1.7 crop, so thats a bit limited.


it's your skills that are limited..


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## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

exige24 said:


> Lol What an inane take. The 8k footage in every other camera overheats in 0 min.


Correction: that’s in 0 sec as in : None


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## BigShooter (Jul 15, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> Good catch, I was imprecise. EOS R only does with 1.8x crop, 8-bit, UHD. That is even more limiting, in my mind, than how the R5 implements 8K, and none of those limitations exist at 4K 30p non-HQ.


so buy an R5 and have it work for 20 minutes before it bakes itself into submission...


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## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

mppix said:


> No in-body RF flash transmitter (does IR focus assist even work?) and flash sync speed is still 1/200


I am pretty sure that the X-Sync is up to 1/250 in The First curtain electronic shutter mode? Noted that while going through the specs of R5 which is a very nice feature indeed.


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## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I am primarily a photographer
> The disappointment is pretty obvious
> Many of us thought canon had truly aced the competition by introducing a camera with insane specs and no crippling
> canon even made clear that the video specs were not limited in anyway before the official release.
> ...


++++ canon even made clear that the video specs were not limited in anyway before the official release.

A.M.: did they say that? Could you please please advise the source of this intel? Thank you. 

++++The thermal issues seem to be the rate limiting step

A.M.: do you think that overheating is a deliberate product limitation to protect their cinema line of cameras?


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## bhf3737 (Jul 15, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I don’t know why you’re rambling about “video production”
> I bird, safari and scuba dive
> 
> On safari I might wait hours before I see what I’m interested in and then will shoot or video for quite sometime
> ...



I guess what described above is an absurd scenario, perhaps only in a zoo!
I trust you have photographed a cheetah hunting in the wild, and you know that after chasing the prey, it bites to the neck and waits at least 20 some minutes to recover from the chase to cool down, and then at least 30 more minutes to eat it. The chase itself is always less than 20 seconds and these segments are not back to back. I guess the R5 with all the presumed 8K shooting limitations, can fit well to this scenario, the camera can cool down as the cheetah cools down!!


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

bhf3737 said:


> I guess what described above is an absurd scenario, perhaps only in a zoo!
> I trust you have photographed a cheetah hunting in the wild, and you know that after chasing the prey, it bites to the neck and waits at least 20 some minutes to recover from the chase to cool down, and then at least 30 more minutes to eat it. The chase itself is always less than 20 seconds and these segments are not back to back. I guess the R5 with all the presumed 8K shooting limitations, can fit well to this scenario, the camera can cool down as the cheetah cools down!!



From your description, it looks like the R5 was designed specifically for shooting feasting cheetahs.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 15, 2020)

john1970 said:


> As a still shooters who hopes to use the 8K RAW at 30 fps to grab frames of fast moving subjects I am not too concerned with the recording limits. I would likely only use the function for 20-30 seconds at a time and can work within the limitations.


Probably like a lot of stills shooters who occasionally shoots video, Im pretty happy about the video options on the R5, which on the R I haven't used much due to it being cropped a fair bit. I can see me using the 4k 30p but like you, the idea of being able to grab a frame at 35mp from an 8k video is amazing. 

The one fly in the ointment though, is currently the quality isn't good enough on the R so I have no idea how to do this and each time I upload video taken on the R to Lightroom, it tells me it isn't supported.

Any tips would be appreciated but meanwhile, I can feel a session on Google and You tube coming on to figure this out.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> I have no idea how to do this and each time I upload video taken on the R to Lightroom, it tells me it isn't supported.


Try opening your videos in Adobe Premiere, you'll find it more practical...


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 15, 2020)

BigShooter said:


> it's your skills that are limited..



Why insulting? I only pointed out the R and R6 are not quite comparable...


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## Mike9129 (Jul 15, 2020)

Would've been great to have an internal water-cooling loop hooked up to the base-plate of the camera or something similar to dissipate the heat seeing as they didn't want to have a fan or external cooling ports.

Probably wouldn't solve the problem completely, but it would open the way for accessories to be added to the bottom of the camera to act as heat sinks.

but either way, I cant see this being too much of a problem for most people. I wont be shooting in 8k pretty much ever, but the 4k 120 will get a bit of use. the amount of data that it generates, never mind anything else, is colossal.

My Inspire 2 x7 can shoot 6k RAW with similar bitrates (480gb drive fills in about 20mins), but I only use it on very special occasions when I need maximum quality, and for short 30second bursts, because its just too much data for myself, or to handover to a client.

My most used codec would be proress422 because thats generally plenty, so you can imagine with the R5, 4k with IPB compression will cover most scenarios.


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## canonnews (Jul 15, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Agree with your statement but I am going to KEEP drilling home the external recording thing.
> 
> 40K60 “unlimited” is absolutely possible with both The R5 and R6 if used with the proper professional equipment...... although no one can seem to offer any situation where anyone would shoot in such a format for THIRTY MINUTES STRAIGHT. ....
> 
> ...


I don't know. it entirely depends if they feed the HDMI port from the liveview feed.

but in reality there are a few tricks that Sony users have done - remove the battery and use USB / DC charge. open the LCD up, etc.

What's weird is that Canon is UPFRONT about all this. Sony you had to find out after you bought the camera - yet who's taking the heat? (literally)


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

canonnews said:


> What's weird is that Canon is UPFRONT about all this. Sony you had to find out after you bought the camera - yet who's taking the heat? (literally)



Maybe Canon values its reputation more than Sony, actually I appreciate it, although I don't care about the video features that much.

At the same time it's an evidence they carefully watch and listen to the photo community and are afraid of negative rants on YouTube.


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## canonnews (Jul 15, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Maybe Canon values its reputation more than Sony, actually I appreciate it, although I don't care about the video features that much.
> 
> At the same time it's an evidence they carefully watch and listen to the photo community and are afraid of negative rants on YouTube.


without a doubt.

for instance, I just checked the Sony manual states this vague stupid crap about the A7 III.

_Depending on the camera and battery temperature, you may be unable to record movies or the power may turn off automatically to protect the camera. A message will be displayed on the screen before the power turns off or you can no longer record movies. In this case, leave the power off and wait until the camera and battery temperature goes down. If you turn on the power without letting the camera and battery cool enough, the power may turn off again or you may be unable to record movies._

This is exactly what Canon is illustrating but they actually give real facts. Sony decides to not tell the users the facts. Now we have this fun stuff;

_• When the temperature of the camera rises, the image quality may deteriorate. It is recommended that you wait until the temperature of the camera drops before continuing to shoot. 

• Under high ambient temperatures, the temperature of the camera rises quickly. 

• If the same part of your skin touches the camera for a long period of time while using the camera, even if the camera does not feel hot to you, it may cause symptoms of a low-temperature burn such as redness or blistering. Pay special attention in the following situations and use a tripod, etc. – When using the camera in a hightemperature environment – When someone with poor circulation or impaired skin sensation uses the camera – When using the camera with the [Auto Pwr OFF Temp.] set to [High]. 

• Especially during 4K movie shooting, the recording time may be shorter under low temperature conditions. Warm up the battery pack or r replace it with a new battery_

So they are saying it's possible to get burned by the camera, that it will overheat and shut down during 4K recording.

So is the A7 III useless too? did I miss the memo?


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 15, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Try opening your videos in Adobe Premiere, you'll find it more practical...


Thanks for the tip, I'm currently using the creative cloud apps on a monthly subscription and Premier Pro (which is what I think you meant), isn't part of that package. Once I get my sticky fingers on the R5 and start doing more video, it may be worthwhile expanding the apps to include this & then the joy of playing to work out how to do it lol.


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## mariosk1gr (Jul 15, 2020)

I have already preordered mine but I can cancel if I want. Im in thoughts to be honest. I shoot stills but I shoot also a lot of video as most of you I believe. From my perspective Canon should include a fan inside R5. I wouldn't care if the body would be thicker! At the end they could deliver what they promised from the start! It's a serious throwback for me... and it may be addressed somehow in the future (lower bitrates, more efficiency codecs that produce less heat, etc) but nobody knows that for sure. As from a stills shooter side I can't find anything bad and this camera will dominate in stills world. DxO rated 1Dx III at 14.5 stops of DR. So I believe R5 will get a similar or not better DR performance. That translates that Canon is on par with Nikon and Sony regarding DR and with the specs of R5 is a monster of a stills camera.


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## freejay (Jul 15, 2020)

I'm a little disappointed that there are so many limits in the video modes. I also like to shoot whole concerts for bands and even with no overheating limit in some modes I still have to restart the recording every 30 minutes...
But apart from that: I'm very excited and looking forward to my R5: As a photo camera (and I will use it this way mostly) it will be absolutely great. I'm pretty sure about that!


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## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> From your description, it looks like the R5 was designed specifically for shooting feasting cheetahs.


Do you see any better use of 8K video on a safari?


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## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

miken said:


> Well if you buy it for stills only, your lashing out two grand or more on video specs that you don't want. Which is precisely why I'm not overly enamoured with it.


Could you please show us which grand in particular are video-only?


----------



## bbb34 (Jul 15, 2020)

I'm glad they didn't put a tiny fan inside. It would take volume, create a lot of noise, be power inefficient, and provide a barn door for water and dust ingress.

What's wrong with putting a fan in a grip? Or for work on a tripod, mount the camera on a large heat sink, with or without a large fan?

R5 has a metal body. I expect that Canon put considerable effort in optimizing the thermal interface between the heating parts (sensor and/or DSP), and the outer shell. I'm looking forward to see the first tear-apart video, and I would expect to find some heat pipes in there.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Thanks for the tip, I'm currently using the creative cloud apps on a monthly subscription and Premier Pro (which is what I think you meant), isn't part of that package. Once I get my sticky fingers on the R5 and start doing more video, it may be worthwhile expanding the apps to include this & then the joy of playing to work out how to do it lol.



With the creative cloud, you can install a trial version of Premiere, it'll work for a month or so. Each new yearly version will give you another trial.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jul 15, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> With the creative cloud, you can install a trial version of Premiere, it'll work for a month or so. Each new yearly version will give you another trial.


I like your logic.  I can have Premiere Rush which is probably a downgraded version of Pro but I'm not sure if this will do it.That's me sorted for a few hours messing with this. Cheers

I need to stop getting ahead of myself and overexcited as although I pre ordered the R5 and am told I am 5th on the list, I'm not that lucky and I probably won't get a unit in the 1st delivery.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Jul 15, 2020)

before the official release canon broadly communicated that there wasn’t a crop or any catch to their video specs. We were all shocked because 8k just seemed almost impossible without a catch

I didn’t suggest the overheating is on purpose and didn’t connect this camera to the cinema line. I wouldn’t but a cinema camera. I believe video and stills will merge over time but stills are the mostimportant to me





SecureGSM said:


> ++++ canon even made clear that the video specs were not limited in anyway before the official release.
> 
> A.M.: did they say that? Could you please please advise the source of this intel? Thank you.
> 
> ...


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Jul 15, 2020)

your suggestion is to buy More equipment or not use the video features that set this camera apart. That sort of defeats the purpose of buying the camera for many people:
The camera specs that got the most attention were the video specs.

I plan on getting the R6 and sticking with 4K 60. I suspect that will work for me but I understand that some could be disappointed if the R5 has a heating issue




PureClassA said:


> So dont record in 8k or the 4kHQ oversampled. Record in normal 4k. You’ll be fine. Or get an external recorder.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (Jul 15, 2020)

I disagree with you
Only lions can consistently sit around with a kill in the wild for an hour or so

cheetahs are skittish
They will kill then eat as much as possible right away. If possible they will hide their prey in a tree.

bigger cats, hyenas and wild dogs will smell the prey and take it. They will easily kill the cheetah if it resisted. They usually can’t sit around with their prey for too long. cheetahs often don’t have the luxury to cool down until after they’ve eaten and they will retreat to their den or a tree and nap with a full belly.




bhf3737 said:


> I guess what described above is an absurd scenario, perhaps only in a zoo!
> I trust you have photographed a cheetah hunting in the wild, and you know that after chasing the prey, it bites to the neck and waits at least 20 some minutes to recover from the chase to cool down, and then at least 30 more minutes to eat it. The chase itself is always less than 20 seconds and these segments are not back to back. I guess the R5 with all the presumed 8K shooting limitations, can fit well to this scenario, the camera can cool down as the cheetah cools down!!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Do you see any better use of 8K video on a safari?


Seriously, I'd probably be shooting those 12-20fps stills on a safari, and video sometimes.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jul 15, 2020)

canonnews said:


> without a doubt.
> 
> for instance, I just checked the Sony manual states this vague stupid crap about the A7 III.
> 
> ...



Sony is pretty conservative after they learned their lessons of overheating and through firmware and later camera releases. The A7M3 says you may only get 29mins of recording due to overheating at up to 104f, but in real life I’ve gotten up to an hour and a half outdoors under the sun. The same is in the a7r3 manual, 29mins, but it has never overheated on me.

With Canon none of this was known or shared until shortly after preorders opened and AFTER the CVP leak came out.At that point Canon came out and publicly made a statement.

Sony is no angel, but neither is Canon. Have we forgotten how hard Canon tried to bury the 1DM3 fiasco? Yes, our sports flagship can’t focus, but let’s tell them its the shooters fault for using the wrong settings...


----------



## analoggrotto (Jul 15, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Man, I would love to travel at 160km/hour on any road. (100 miles /hour ) However there is a limit.


Cooling system limitations may apply here too  and a multipass radiator would cause the car to take longer to warm up in the morning.

This all, of course, depends on the car.

If canon put a more aggressive heat pipe on this camera, it would be bloody murder that they couldnt let go of the 5D chunkiness (which im going to miss).

They could have really taken the market by storm offering a red-square badged "C" variation with a cooling system for an extra $1000.


----------



## Besisika (Jul 15, 2020)

freejay said:


> I'm a little disappointed that there are so many limits in the video modes. I also like to shoot whole concerts for bands and even with no overheating limit in some modes I still have to restart the recording every 30 minutes...
> But apart from that: I'm very excited and looking forward to my R5: As a photo camera (and I will use it this way mostly) it will be absolutely great. I'm pretty sure about that!


I am a photographer first as well and interested mostly in the 45MP. However, I shoot band and choir concerts quite often on my 1DX II.
If you tell us more what disappoints you most among the video limits, someone with better experience may suggest how would you use the camera once you get it. I am assuming that you want to frame, press record, take a comfortable sit, wait until the concert is finished and press stop. But I am assuming and I can be wrong.
Let us know.


----------



## Besisika (Jul 15, 2020)

This_That said:


> No interest in video whatsoever. And what videos I see around, could have taken on a phone easily.
> Srsly, why film an interview or vlog in 4k or 8k. That's just plain stupid. Fight me video fanfolk...


No fighting from my side, just opinion; you are my brother in rumor.
I don't know how to shoot interview on a phone. Your skill must be better than mine. It looks like I need to learn more.
I agree, I don't know why I would shoot an interview in 8K, unless it is a real proof that martians do exist.

4K is my standard. It sounds stupid indeed until.... I don't know if you have been in a situation where you took photos of an event, you sent JPGs over and they fell in love with your job that they ask you if you can work on one specific photo for a huge print, not Facebook like the rest of them.
This is why you shoot both A-roll and B-rolls in 4K. You create a 4K sequence and put all your clips in the timeline, in the same "format" if possible. This makes working on them a lot nicer and faster. This gives you an opportunity to export in any format up to 4K, even when the deal was for a 1080p.
When their father past away, they want to retain the best memory of him from anywhere and everywhere. You happened to be the guy who interviewed him during his only daughter wedding, when he talks how much he loves her (and you shot it on a phone). Good luck!


----------



## yungfat (Jul 15, 2020)

Due to business ethics, Canon pre-inform the heat issue, so the shooter who intended to shoot in such high resolution mode should be aware. 

However, do "S" inform you that their camera will overheated during 4k video shooting in their earlier model?


----------



## bergstrom (Jul 15, 2020)

who cares if it was a little bigger, just put a fan in!


----------



## reefroamer (Jul 15, 2020)

Small steps, people. A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. Canon has taken that step. Progress is progress. The Wright brothers' first powered flight at Kitty Hawk, NC, in 1902, was limited to ONLY 852 feet, lasted JUST 59 seconds and would easily have been captured in 8k on the R5. Fortunately, the poor brothers didn’t have to endure hours of YouTube video and endless Internet forum bashing for their huge FAIL.


----------



## Respinder (Jul 15, 2020)

korbar said:


> For sure 4K 24 doesn't. And this is really the primary setting a lot of video shooters will likely use for a brunt of their work. Me included.
> 
> I'm honestly surprised that I am surprised people are still talking about this. I'm a primary video shooter, and it really truly is a non-issue that the specialized codecs/settings have an upper limit for heat. Going to keep shaking my head all the way until my R5 arrives and I can go back to quietly enjoying making things. Hahaha


If this is the case then this is amazing news. I’m not sure why people (eg EOSHD) are getting so butthurt over this. Almost all my shooting is at 24p so this would work out perfectly for me!


----------



## drama (Jul 15, 2020)

Oh my lord. Anyone watching this should have no doubts left that Tony is being paid to be negative about Canon: 




Honestly - poo-pooed 8K said it wouldn't happen. Then said it would be timelapse, then promoted doubt around it, then focused on the overheat.

And now this - comparing these leaked specs in every way, even using coded language, to make the Sony sound superior. This is the definition of paid shilling.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> before the official release canon broadly communicated that there wasn’t a crop or any catch to their video specs. We were all shocked because 8k just seemed almost impossible without a catch
> 
> I didn’t suggest the overheating is on purpose and didn’t connect this camera to the cinema line. I wouldn’t but a cinema camera. I believe video and stills will merge over time but stills are the mostimportant to me


thank you but you have not answered my question. please be specific.:

*++++ canon even made clear that the video specs were not limited in anyway before the official release. *

A.M.: Could you please please advise the source of this intel? I do not believe that Canon ever stated *that the video specs were not limited in anyway.*

further to you recent statement:

++++ *We were all shocked* because 8k just seemed almost impossible without a catch.....

A.M.: We? who we?

++++The thermal issues seem to be the rate limiting step
and
++++I didn’t suggest the overheating is on purpose 

A.M.: so was it a rate limiting step (as in on purpose) or not on purpose? A Cripple hummer or a technolgical limitation?


----------



## TomR (Jul 15, 2020)

drama said:


> Oh my lord. Anyone watching this should have no doubts left that Tony is being paid to be negative about Canon:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tony makes a living by being wrong, this is what he said about the R5 when it what rumoured


----------



## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

Respinder said:


> If this is the case then this is amazing news. *I’m not sure why people (eg EOSHD) are getting so butthurt over this*. Almost all my shooting is at 24p so this would work out perfectly for me!


Cause they were truly and rightfully shafted by the mighty Canon. obviously their butt is hurting now. picture that


----------



## twoheadedboy (Jul 15, 2020)

BigShooter said:


> so buy an R5 and have it work for 20 minutes before it bakes itself into submission...



That's the point, it doesn't do that at 4k 30p non-HQ. Only 4k 30p HQ, 4k 60p, 4k 120p, and 8k 30p have those limitations. And as previously mentioned, video is secondary to stills for me anyway...I will probably film some concerts lasting in upwards of 2 hrs, but 4k 30p is more than sufficient for the job as I will set on a tripod and frame properly.


----------



## Twinix (Jul 15, 2020)

This_That said:


> 4k


To get a wider shot and a closeup, sharper delivered in 1080p, small reframing, digital stabilization with software etc..


----------



## BeenThere (Jul 15, 2020)

TomR said:


> Tony makes a living by being wrong, this is what he said about the R5 when it what rumoured
> 
> View attachment 191357


Duh? He is saying how great it is to use a 12 Mpixel sensor? If you only shoot video, that may work, but still shooters are going to reject this approach! Yes, Tony is Sony Blind to the obvious.


----------



## This_That (Jul 15, 2020)

Besisika said:


> I don't know how to shoot interview on a phone.


Try FILMIC Pro


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> With the creative cloud, you can install a trial version of Premiere, it'll work for a month or so. Each new yearly version will give you another trial.





Starting out EOS R said:


> I like your logic.  I can have Premiere Rush which is probably a downgraded version of Pro but I'm not sure if this will do it.That's me sorted for a few hours messing with this. Cheers
> 
> I need to stop getting ahead of myself and overexcited as although I pre ordered the R5 and am told I am 5th on the list, I'm not that lucky and I probably won't get a unit in the 1st delivery.



Whatever you do, do not touch Premier, it is an endless unstable resource hog that will drain your bank account dry in a slow death by subscription and lock you into an endless cycle of hardware upgrades that still don't fix it's inherent inability to properly process LongGOP footage. After a few years of paying for it, trying to keep it from crashing, and upgrading HW to try to make it work smoothly, and right when you have it somewhat stable Adobe forces another update onto your computer that renders your previous projects unreadable and starts the crashing and instability all over again; you will regret the day you ever discovered it.

Now with all of that first hand doom and gloom out of the way do you want to know the MUCH better alternative? It's called Davinci Resolve...completely free for life, amazing Hollywood grade color grading, NLE editing, compositing, special effects compositing, GPU accelerated rendering....the list goes on and on. And if you do reach the point in your video production career where you want to do more advanced things or if you need to process 10bit footage, then you can purchase it for a one time fee of $300 and you will get free upgrades for life.

Davinci Resolve does have a bit of a steeper learning curve...but only if you are trying to unlearn Premier Pro. It took me about a week 8hrs a day to unlearn all of my Premier Pro muscle memory and to reach equivalent efficicency in Davinci Resolve. But it was the best move I have ever made.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> who cares if it was a little bigger,


I care if it's weather-sealed.



bergstrom said:


> just put a fan in!


You put a fan on yours. Mine is better without.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 15, 2020)

drama said:


> Oh my lord. Anyone watching this should have no doubts left that Tony is being paid to be negative about Canon:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's my definition of a jerk.  I no longer view anything of his.

Jack


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> thank you but you have not answered my question. please be specific.:
> 
> *++++ canon even made clear that the video specs were not limited in anyway before the official release. *
> 
> ...



Sorry I am never going to give Canon a pass on this one. They had press releases like this:






More Canon EOS R5 specs revealed – “the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets” - Canon Press Centre - Canon Europe







www.canon-europe.com





and I quote _"EOS R5 holds its own as the lead camera in productions" _ no lead production camera in most productions would have such severe thermal constraints. I agree Canon never said specifically that 8K would be unlimited, and no one believed it would be, but so is 4K120, so is 4K60 which I use nearly all the time for gimbal work, and so is HQ 4K30. So after paying $6K for a new body and lenses the only reliable video frame rate and quality that you can get out of the R5 is the same thing you get out of the EOS R...4K 30 and written to a single card.

All Canon had to do was make an R6H version like Panasonic did, make it bigger, add a fan, give it backup video recording capabilities, and remove the recording time limit. That would have been the perfect camera.


----------



## mpmark (Jul 15, 2020)

Dont care! I'm a stills photographer, feels like I'm the last one, this will be used for still photography, nothing more. Moving to next article.


----------



## mpmark (Jul 15, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> It's my definition of a jerk.  I no longer view anything of his.
> 
> Jack


im sorry to hear you just realized that now.


----------



## This_That (Jul 15, 2020)

mpmark said:


> Dont care! I'm a stills photographer, feels like I'm the last one, this will be used for still photography, nothing more. Moving to next article.


Same, so at least 2


----------



## Paul6 (Jul 15, 2020)

Who cares I am a stills photographer


----------



## mpmark (Jul 15, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> who cares if it was a little bigger, just put a fan in!



no, dont just put a fan in it, keep it small, and no I like my camera weather sealed.

why dont you just by a proper VIDEO CAMERA and stop complaining that a photo camera should be the same as a C300 for one third the price!


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jul 15, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> It's my definition of a jerk.  I no longer view anything of his.
> 
> Jack


A truly awful and very biased video comparing 2 cameras that have 2 totally different specifications. apples and Pears? The Sony hasn't even been officially announced and both cameras have never been tested in production form.

lol, I love the suggestion their channel should be renamed Sony & Chelsea Northrup.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 15, 2020)

mpmark said:


> im sorry to hear you just realized that now.


Your assumption about now is dead wrong! 

Jack


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 15, 2020)

This is what you can expect when a camera is released during a pandemic. It's worse than a new moon. https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2014/398791/

Jack


----------



## mppix (Jul 15, 2020)

shunsai said:


> Has that been confirmed? Do you have a link? I wasn't able to find details on the HDMI version used.


Mostly








Canon EOS R5 video specs include 8K/30, 4K/120 with Raw, 10-bit H.265 and full AF


Canon has revealed the video specs of its forthcoming EOS R5, including internal Raw capture of its 8K/30p footage. There's also full-width 4K at up to 120p with 10-bit 4:2:2 recording and full AF in all modes.




m.dpreview.com


----------



## amorse (Jul 15, 2020)

bergstrom said:


> who cares if it was a little bigger, just put a fan in!


If they put a fan in, the camera won't suit previous 5D buyers as weather sealing and ruggedization are core to the use of a 5D. Instead, they'd capture the few people who really want an 8K camera, but lose those that shoot in inclement weather. I think there is more to lose than to gain for Canon in making that choice - it would leave a significant hole in Canon's broader camera lineup.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

amorse said:


> If they put a fan in, the camera won't suit previous 5D buyers as weather sealing and ruggedization are core to the use of a 5D. Instead, they'd capture the few people who really want an 8K camera, but lose those that shoot in inclement weather. I think there is more to lose than to gain for Canon in making that choice - it would leave a significant hole in Canon's broader camera lineup.



This is why I think they should have taken a page from Panasonic's playbook and made an R6H version with a bigger body and a fan, maybe they still will. The only way they will is if people talk with their wallets and sit this one out until something changes.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> This is why I think they should have taken a page from Panasonic's playbook and made an R6H version with a bigger body and a fan, maybe they still will. The only way they will is if people talk with their wallets and sit this one out until something changes.


Well, I don't want a fan and bigger body, so my wallet won't talk to that point.

Jack


----------



## bhf3737 (Jul 15, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I disagree with you
> Only lions can consistently sit around with a kill in the wild for an hour or so
> 
> cheetahs are skittish
> ...



Again, it seems that it is an imaginary scenario. Cheetahs are grassland hunters and do not climb trees! Their claws, more like dog claws, do not retract so they cannot climb!! 
My point is that unfortunately many of the usage scenarios in defense of overheating any camera (from any manufacturer) seem to be naive and unrealistic. The manufacturers trust feedback from actual users of their products; and have good idea of the practical use-cases of their goods; and develop features that match those needs; while working within the physics and thermodynamics constraints. They do not have budget, time and resources to develop features for imaginary use-cases.


----------



## eosuser1234 (Jul 15, 2020)

I wonder if you can one of those neck fans from amazon and build a hot shoe holder (3D printed), to hold it in place. 
The shooting times are plenty for me. If I was in a position to shoot something longer, I would probably rent a C series for the shoot.


----------



## dwilz (Jul 15, 2020)

I do product videos which introduce collections and show construction features. My individual clips are never over a minute long. My new R5 will be perfect for me. I'm currently using an EOS R and really liking it.


----------



## Lt Colonel (Jul 15, 2020)

Good news. With all this negativity, the price should be just about right by Christmas.  I'm a stills shooter, mostly wildlife and landscapes, and am excited about the R5 AF and FPS. I wish the R6 had a little more MPs and that would be a no brainer for me. As I mentioned, I shoot stills, but if I wanted to shoot 8K video I'm not sure I could afford the R5, the costs of very large CFExpress cards, a more powerful PC to manage the large 8K files and likely a better monitor to see the 8K goodness and additional storage to store the files. Why are hobbies so expensive? 

I wonder where all this will end? Just how much detail can the human eye/brain discern?


----------



## reefroamer (Jul 15, 2020)

im just interested in knowing what 8k camera, with unlimited recording time, everyone is planning to buy today.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

eosuser1234 said:


> I wonder if you can one of those neck fans from amazon and build a hot shoe holder (3D printed), to hold it in place.


There are more elegant solutions


----------



## amorse (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> This is why I think they should have taken a page from Panasonic's playbook and made an R6H version with a bigger body and a fan, maybe they still will. The only way they will is if people talk with their wallets and sit this one out until something changes.


Canon have made video-focused cameras in DSLR bodies in the past (i.e. 1DC) - maybe an R5C is in the cards to answer those concerns. In all honesty though, I know video is a core part of a lot of peoples workflow, but I do wonder about the proportionality of work divided between stills and video. I mean, if Canon severely compromised the stills function to manage better video features, would the camera sell better (since that's what Canon will care about and drive their decisions)? What about vice versa? 

One thing I feel pretty confident about is that the 5D series has a reasonable following for a reason: straying from or compromising that formula in any big way would be potentially disruptive. For me, loss of weather sealing could mean I wouldn't have a great upgrade path in Canon until they offer another camera with reasonably high resolution and 5D-equivalent weather sealing. While I'm only one person, and less than a drop in the pool of consumers, I strongly suspect there are a lot of other photographers out there who care more about the weather sealing than pushing past a 20 minute 8K recording limit.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

amorse said:


> Canon have made video-focused cameras in DSLR bodies in the past (i.e. 1DC) - maybe an R5C is in the cards to answer those concerns.



nah the bar is set. A high-grade video-centric camera would need to have 8K which automatically means 44.7mp like in the R5. Relatedly, A7SII is screwed and DoA because it won't have 8K with its laughable pitiful 12mp.


----------



## Jstnelson (Jul 15, 2020)

I will be using the R5 for stills, occasional 4k30, and maybe a couple minutes of 4k120 every now and then if I specifically want a slowmo shot. So I agree, I'm glad they kept the camera weather sealed/presumably cheaper in lieu of an active cooling solution for extreme video users. The camera is sounding perfect to me.

What would be cool to see, in my opinion, is something like a heat sink routed along the bottom of the camera that's hidden with a removable weather-sealed door. You can remove the door and add a battery grip w/active cooling.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Jul 15, 2020)

PeterParker said:


> Perhaps I'm just a crazy fanboy, but this seems... entirely reasonable and not at all out of step with what I expected? Not only that, but I actually think Canon's transparency on the matter is enormously refreshing? Am I the insane one here?
> 
> I am usually very quick to criticize large companies who fail to meet expectations or pull some pseudo bait-and-switch nonsense, but I genuinely don't believe the outsized criticism of these heat "issues" is warranted. The R5 is not -- and was never advertised as -- a C500 replacement. The spec sheet, even including these high end recording limitations, is more than I possibly could have asked for 6 months ago. What were others who are more critical honestly expecting? (This is not a pejorative statement by the way, I'm genuinely curious -- if you're disappointed by this, what were your expectations?)



No, you are not the insane one here. It was pretty obvious as Canon being the first one to add 8K to a mirrorless camera that there were going to be some limitations (as is true with most new tech). If we all remember, Sony ran into the same overheating issues with small recording times when first adding 4K to there A7 line of mirrorless cameras. Heck, they even had that issue with the first RX100 with 4K (5 minute max 4K recording). The R5 was never advertised as being a cinema camera, nor did Canon ever make any sort of claim that it would be. And no, no company in history has ever released a list of limitations ahead of a product launch. The fact that Canon has been 100% transparent about it since the announcement means they were never hiding or denying those limitations. 

The R5 is a worthy successor to the 5D Mark VI, and as a well rounded camera for professionals. Is it a FF cinema on cheap, no. Has any FF camera really delivered on that? Possibly only the Sony A7S II, but that isn't perfect either (hint, no camera really is).


----------



## vjlex (Jul 15, 2020)

mppix said:


> Mostly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see anything about the HDMI version in that link you sent me. If you have it available, could you quote it in a post. You're most likely right about it not being 2.1, but I want confirmation.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> and I quote _"EOS R5 holds its own as the lead camera in productions" _



Here's something else Canon says, from the same piece (my emphasis) - you seem to have "accidentally" neglected to tell the whole story:


> it’s an ideal _support filming_ camera



Are you telling us that a camera that can do 4k 10 bit for as long as it's needed and cropped/uncropped 8k 10 bit _as well_, doesn't fulfil the criteria to be a pro _support _camera?

Canon also says (my emphasis again):


> the EOS R5 is an ideal lead camera _for many productions_ but also, given its compatibility with cinema workflows, the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets



*Seems to me that they're very being clear that depending on the production, the R5 might serve as the lead device, or as a support camera.*

And at 4k, yes, if _can_ be the lead camera.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Jul 15, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> I find the heat issue very disturbing. There is a need to have this small sized camera for video work on a gimbal. Few years back I used 7DII to shoot TEDx conference. It was one time job in a life. But I did it. I'll still wait for a full frame camera with interchangeable lens that can shoot 4K/60, unlimited recording time and a decent codec. The R mount and drop in filter adapters could solve even the ND issue on DSLRs. With little money we could add that feature found in cinema cameras. But, I guess, Cannon won't offer this for a low price. 1DXIII has no issues regarding overheating. R6, instead, for less money, with the same sensor, has this problem. Finally everything is about marketing, about money. I'm happy that Canon somehow answered. It's a shame.
> EDIT: overheating is real:



It's not that Canon won't add it at a cheap price, its that its not possible to add it while also making the camera work for stills in a variety of environments (weather sealed body, small size, etc). The 1DX Mark III doesn't have issues with overheating because the body is far larger to dissipate the heat. It's purely physics. Canon made two incredible FF cameras to go along with their highly regarded RF lenses. Are they perfect? No. Is any camera perfect? At this point in time, no.


----------



## BeenThere (Jul 15, 2020)

Lt Colonel said:


> Good news. With all this negativity, the price should be just about right by Christmas.  I'm a stills shooter, mostly wildlife and landscapes, and am excited about the R5 AF and FPS. I wish the R6 had a little more MPs and that would be a no brainer for me. As I mentioned, I shoot stills, but if I wanted to shoot 8K video I'm not sure I could afford the R5, the costs of very large CFExpress cards, a more powerful PC to manage the large 8K files and likely a better monitor to see the 8K goodness and additional storage to store the files. Why are hobbies so expensive?
> 
> I wonder where all this will end? Just how much detail can the human eye/brain discern?


Why would you want to shoot 8k as a hobbiest? Who would be your audience? I doubt that most R5 buyers will ever use the 8K camera capability. Working at the bleeding edge of technology is always very expensive and fraught with difficulties. Keep it real and you will get a lot more usable material. I doubt that this Christmas will be a time for R5/6 price drops. I would not be surprised if dealers are not still on limited allocations at Christmas.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

amorse said:


> Canon have made video-focused cameras in DSLR bodies in the past (i.e. 1DC) - maybe an R5C is in the cards to answer those concerns. In all honesty though, I know video is a core part of a lot of peoples workflow, but I do wonder about the proportionality of work divided between stills and video. I mean, if Canon severely compromised the stills function to manage better video features, would the camera sell better (since that's what Canon will care about and drive their decisions)? What about vice versa?
> 
> One thing I feel pretty confident about is that the 5D series has a reasonable following for a reason: straying from or compromising that formula in any big way would be potentially disruptive. For me, loss of weather sealing could mean I wouldn't have a great upgrade path in Canon until they offer another camera with reasonably high resolution and 5D-equivalent weather sealing. While I'm only one person, and less than a drop in the pool of consumers, I strongly suspect there are a lot of other photographers out there who care more about the weather sealing than pushing past a 20 minute 8K recording limit.



I think the mass exodus to Sony is what really got Canon's attention and most of that exodus was due to video features from what I have read. Also no one is saying that people want to push past 20min of 8K recording, the problem is that 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30 is affected as well. Also you only get the listed times in the chart at 73F. I regularly shoot in 98F and 100% humidity conditions, it is unclear how bad the problem will be in real world conditions. It is also unclear if many short clips throughout a hot humid day will still lead to a thermal shutdown.

I would gladly give up weather sealing in exchange for rock solid reliable video and photo features; I can better control how much rain hits my camera than I can what temperature it is subjected to. This is why I think the true hybrid camp would be better served by a dedicated body that includes cooling and slightly larger size. No one is asking to replace a Cinema camera with a MILC...all we want is a camera that is reliable, stable, and predictable when using the features that are advertised.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 15, 2020)

On the EOS R, the settings can be changed so that the EVF and flippy screen show the live view as aperture, shutter speed and ISO are changed (Exposure Simulation). It's a great function to see what subtle changes make to the image when under or overexposing and image. Whilst it does add a little more drain on the battery, it doesn't affect it much. I scanned through the specs on the R5 and cant see that function is there but it does say there is a button that can show a preview similar to that on the 7D MKII & other cameras. It would be a shame if this feature wasn't on the R5.


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## BeenThere (Jul 15, 2020)

Sibir Lupus said:


> It's not that Canon won't add it at a cheap price, its that its not possible to add it while also making the camera work for stills in a variety of environments (weather sealed body, small size, etc). The 1DX Mark III doesn't have issues with overheating because the body is far larger to dissipate the heat. It's purely physics. Canon made two incredible FF cameras to go along with their highly regarded RF lenses. Are they perfect? No. Is any camera perfect? At this point in time, no.


Use the EF/RF filter adapter and EF lenses and you potentially have the ND drop in filter solution. More filter options are needed, but if Canon doesn’t step up with these, 3rd parties probably will.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Here's something else Canon says, from the same piece (my emphasis) - you seem to have "accidentally" neglected to tell the whole story:
> 
> 
> Are you telling us that a camera that can do 4k 10 bit for as long as it's needed and cropped/uncropped 8k 10 bit _as well_, doesn't fulfil the criteria to be a pro _support _camera?
> ...



I did not accidentally neglect anything. the logic here is an AND statement not an OR statement ....it can be a lead production camera AND it can be a support camera. The part you are conveniently neglecting to add is that it overheats in pretty much all high quality modes including 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30. The only time it will not overheat is in line skipped modes which you can already get from the EOS R and many other camera bodies.

You also keep skipping the fact that you will only get those listed times at 73F. What happens when it is 100F and 100% humidity? What happens if you just need many short clips throughout the day will it still overheat? What happens when you shoot all day for a photo shoot then need to switch over to video, how soon will it overheat? Many real world scenarios will drastically lower the listed times and no customer will care why you are standing around waiting for your equipment to start working again...they are just going to hire someone else next time.

As a photography camera the R5 and R6 are fantastic, as hybrid cameras unless plenty of real world testing reveals otherwise, on paper so far they are not reliable enough to use for hybrid paying work, its just that simple. The problem is they are both marketed as paying gig production level hybrid cameras with a heavy emphasis on video and based on the thermal limitations I disagree with this viewpoint.


----------



## canonnews (Jul 15, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> Sony is pretty conservative after they learned their lessons of overheating and through firmware and later camera releases. The A7M3 says you may only get 29mins of recording due to overheating at up to 104f, but in real life I’ve gotten up to an hour and a half outdoors under the sun. The same is in the a7r3 manual, 29mins, but it has never overheated on me.
> 
> With Canon none of this was known or shared until shortly after preorders opened and AFTER the CVP leak came out.At that point Canon came out and publicly made a statement.
> 
> Sony is no angel, but neither is Canon. Have we forgotten how hard Canon tried to bury the 1DM3 fiasco? Yes, our sports flagship can’t focus, but let’s tell them its the shooters fault for using the wrong settings...



I'm sorry when did Sony officially give a PR announcement about overheating with specific numbers? I looked a the A7 III manual and it was vague. there was no numbers. there was certainly no recycling numbers - which are important as well. and temperature cycling does happen even on Sony's because that's just the nature of thermodynamics.

Canon buried the 1D Mark III? that's why they announced publically that they were working on corrections 3 months after the camera was rolled out to the public? That's revising history some there isn't it? They released the sub mirror fix - the first of several less than two months after that. People seem to think that critical and hard to diagnose problems should be resolved immediately though. and if you have to go back 13 years to find something that Canon did partly wrong or could have done better, I think that's pretty much a win. Let's not forget that sony quickly replaced the original A7 because it had a wobbly mount (there was even a third party replacement) and bragged that the A7 II had "longer screws for a more durable mount".

This is Canon's first IBIS release and the first ever camera in existence that oversamples from 8K to 4K. Yet people expect it to work like a $20K cini camera.

and btw, preorders - aren't actually spending money. pre-orders can be easily canceled. there's a difference there.


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## nighthawk82 (Jul 15, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> M ypersonal use case would be macro, getting slow-mo shots of various bugs doing their thing, e.g. a butterfly landing, sticking its proboscis into a flower, drinking and flying off again. Or sweat bees taking a pollen bath. Those are are hard to get right as stills, let alone video and I can do that for a long time in a row in my garden.
> Since that's my only interest in video, I won't ever look at getting a proper cine camera. And it's a niche use case for a niche hobby, so all the hand (or other body part) waving about how professionals should work doesn't matter to me, personally.
> 
> Maybe I'll never hit the overheating threshold and all this is moot, but as someone else on this forum said: you can put the condescension back in the box.


Ok fine... so do you currently do any of that sort of macro stuff? How exactly? I might be wrong, but I cannot find any other full frame ILC non-cinema camera that can do 4k 120fps, let alone do it for 15 continuous minutes. So now people are bitching because Canon decided to allow 8k RAW or 4k 120fps (which no other manufacturer allows yet), but with a limitation that 99.9999% of users will be absolutely fine with. If they left the option out in order to be able to work more on getting that functionality without limitation, then people will cry foul that Canon is evil and is protecting their cinema line and how mediocre Canon is. People can never be pleased it seems. So, even though I'm still not sure how you currently get 4k 120fps for longer than 15 minutes, whatever it is you're doing, stick with it because the R5 is not designed and not able to handle that use case. If you're currently doing 4k 60fps, or FullHD 120fps to get your shots, you'll be pleased to know there's no heat limitation on those modes, so the R5 will still be an upgrade and moreover in 15 minutes you MIGHT actually get that butterfly landing within that time frame, so you can try 4k 120fps too.


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## canonnews (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I did not accidentally neglect anything. the logic here is an AND statement not an OR statement ....it can be a lead production camera AND it can be a support camera. The part you are conveniently neglecting to add is that it overheats in pretty much all high quality modes including 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30. The only time it will not overheat is in line skipped modes which you can already get from the EOS R and many other camera bodies.



The R5 is meant as is all the 5D series as ahybrid it's not going to do as well as a video camera. as a matter of fact, there isn't any hybrids that do as well as a real video camera, even though you could argue the GH5 comes closest. The amount of SDI, XLR connectors, and video specific erognomnics that exist on a video camera completely destroys any thought that serious video people should use a camera.

using a hybrid camera is just because you want the convenience. well there are downsides to convenience. and btw, you can 5.1k oversample down to 4k without limits, and also use full width line skipping without limits. you have options. Most of the times, if you are doing long running interviews, BTS's, concerts of kids, what have you - how much of that time do you actually need with full over sampled video. What the problem domain seems to be is long running video that needs the highest level of IQ and needs to be over n minutes and that it needs to be full width as well. . how of that actually exists? someone mentioned safari - that would be better off with 5.1K oversampled anyways most of the time.

and really anyone that actually thought about this at all would have naturally assumed that oversampled 4K on this camera would be limited. it's oversampling from 8K. No other camera on the planet right now does that.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I did not accidentally neglect anything. the logic here is an AND statement not an OR statement ....it can be a lead production camera AND it can be a support camera. The part you are conveniently neglecting to add is that it overheats in pretty much all high quality modes including 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30. The only time it will not overheat is in line skipped modes which you can already get from the EOS R and many other camera bodies.
> 
> You also keep skipping the fact that you will only get those listed times at 73F. What happens when it is 100F and 100% humidity? What happens if you just need many short clips throughout the day will it still overheat? What happens when you shoot all day for a photo shoot then need to switch over to video, how soon will it overheat? Many real world scenarios will drastically lower the listed times and no customer will care why you are standing around waiting for your equipment to start working again...they are just going to hire someone else next time.
> 
> As a photography camera the R5 and R6 are fantastic, as hybrid cameras unless plenty of real world testing reveals otherwise, on paper so far they are not reliable enough to use for hybrid paying work, its just that simple. The problem is they are both marketed as paying gig production level hybrid cameras with a heavy emphasis on video and based on the thermal limitations I disagree with this viewpoint.


Just an aside and Im not saying anyone is wrong as I've not followed the whole of this conversation but the Canon Statement did say that 4K 30p using the full sensor width isn't subject overheating or any limit. Whereas the R does have 4k and no heat issues but is heavily cropped?


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## Besisika (Jul 15, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Why would you want to shoot 8k as a hobbiest? Who would be your audience? I doubt that most R5 buyers will ever use the 8K camera capability. Working at the bleeding edge of technology is always very expensive and fraught with difficulties. Keep it real and you will get a lot more usable material. I doubt that this Christmas will be a time for R5/6 price drops. I would not be surprised if dealers are not still on limited allocations at Christmas.


I was surprised too. I have been shooting video for almost 15 years now and I still shoot primarily 4K. My dream of 8Ks are only for 10sec each time.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 15, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> On the EOS R, the settings can be changed so that the EVF and flippy screen show the live view as aperture, shutter speed and ISO are changed (Exposure Simulation). It's a great function to see what subtle changes make to the image when under or overexposing and image. Whilst it does add a little more drain on the battery, it doesn't affect it much. I scanned through the specs on the R5 and cant see that function is there but it does say there is a button that can show a preview similar to that on the 7D MKII & other cameras. It would be a shame if this feature wasn't on the R5.



Exposure simulation in EVF in LiveView is in all Canon cameras I know, there's no reason it's not included in the R5.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

canonnews said:


> The R5 is meant as is all the 5D series as ahybrid it's not going to do as well as a video camera. as a matter of fact, there isn't any hybrids that do as well as a real video camera, even though you could argue the GH5 comes closest. The amount of SDI, XLR connectors, and video specific erognomnics that exist on a video camera completely destroys any thought that serious video people should use a camera.
> 
> using a hybrid camera is just because you want the convenience. well there are downsides to convenience. and btw, you can 5.1k oversample down to 4k without limits, and also use full width line skipping without limits. you have options. Most of the times, if you are doing long running interviews, BTS's, concerts of kids, what have you - how much of that time do you actually need with full over sampled video. What the problem domain seems to be is long running video that needs the highest level of IQ and needs to be over n minutes and that it needs to be full width as well. . how of that actually exists? someone mentioned safari - that would be better off with 5.1K oversampled anyways most of the time.
> 
> and really anyone that actually thought about this at all would have naturally assumed that oversampled 4K on this camera would be limited. it's oversampling from 8K. No other camera on the planet right now does that.



I think the biggest problem with this type of problem is the ambiguity of it all, the chart looks great on paper but the one thing that really stands out for me is that one little number at the top of the chart 73F, and we don't even know if humidity will make that worse. I live in FL and shoot in 90+ temps and 100% humidity 8 months out of the year, my gear sits in 120F and 100% humidity cars regularly while I shoot other portions of a shoot (aerial, photography, video, underwater, etc.) so it could be hours before I need a particular piece of gear.

When they release a chart like that I immediately start to wonder how those factors will affect it in the real world, and I can't even imagine standing around on a paid shoot telling a client we need to wait for my equipment to cool down. So I think this is why people are losing their minds over this...these cameras were heavily marketed towards hybrid video/photo shooters but there are so many caveats in the video department that it's too risky to really use on a paid hybrid shoot. So in that case you are back to using something else for those scenarios and for hybrid shooters with paying clients this is a let down.

If all you need are video clips of your kids running around, or you are shooting personal projects, these are fantastic cameras, but no way would I use either of these cameras for a wedding, for a commercial promo video shoot, for a music video shoot, for pretty much any of the work that I do; there's too much of a risk of waiting for a brick to cool down.

My own personal pet peeve doesn't even have anything to do with overheating....why on earth Canon equips cameras with two card slots then only lets you create backup recordings for photography and not video is completely beyond me.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Just an aside and Im not saying anyone is wrong as I've not followed the whole of this conversation but the Canon Statement did say that 4K 30p using the full sensor width isn't subject overheating or any limit. Whereas the R does have 4k and no heat issues but is heavily cropped?



You are correct but a crop doesn't bother me or most video shooters at all. You just shoot with a wider lens. In fact my GH5 has a horrible 2X crop and it just means use a lens with twice the field of view...very easy to compensate for and the video quality is the same. I love my GH5 but it has many major limitations, everything from no AF to poor color science, all of those factors are well known, documented, and have plenty of workarounds; the problem with thermal limitations is that you have no control over the ambient temperature for most real world situations.


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## sanj (Jul 15, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Why insulting? I only pointed out the R and R6 are not quite comparable...


Right.


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## yungfat (Jul 15, 2020)

This_That said:


> Same, so at least 2



so there are 3 now


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## Arod820 (Jul 15, 2020)

.jan said:


> I've been using video capable DSLRs for a decade now and shot maybe a total of 20 minutes of video on them so naturally that's the most uninteresting news I could think of. However, it's gonna be fun seeing everyone go mad about it and construct an issue where there really is none (if you need proper heat managaement get a cinema camera ffs).


That’s why my C100 is my lockdown cover shot and my EOS R is my handheld or tight shot. This is old news really and kind of expected


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## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Why would you want to shoot 8k as a hobbiest?


To be able to keep that effing cheetah in a 4K frame when cropped, especially given the laggy EVF?


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## yungfat (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think the biggest problem with this type of problem is the ambiguity of it all, the chart looks great on paper but the one thing that really stands out for me is that one little number at the top of the chart 73F, and we don't even know if humidity will make that worse. I live in FL and shoot in 90+ temps and 100% humidity 8 months out of the year, my gear sits in 120F and 100% humidity cars regularly while I shoot other portions of a shoot (aerial, photography, video, underwater, etc.) so it could be hours before I need a particular piece of gear.
> 
> When they release a chart like that I immediately start to wonder how those factors will affect it in the real world, and I can't even imagine standing around on a paid shoot telling a client we need to wait for my equipment to cool down. So I think this is why people are losing their minds over this...these cameras were heavily marketed towards hybrid video/photo shooters but there are so many caveats in the video department that it's too risky to really use on a paid hybrid shoot. So in that case you are back to using something else for those scenarios and for hybrid shooters with paying clients this is a let down.
> 
> ...



If you like Sony, continue with Sony.

every company having different way to things that they think it’s important to them.

show respect to each others, and go with what you like.

of course your comments will be appreciated.

nothing is perfect in the world, perh we all have to learn to live with limitations especially during this pandemic time.

thanks


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## mppix (Jul 15, 2020)

shunsai said:


> I don't see anything about the HDMI version in that link you sent me. If you have it available, could you quote it in a post. You're most likely right about it not being 2.1, but I want confirmation.


It states that external recording is 4K60, i.e. hdmi 2.0 (but i have not seen a hdmi version number from canon)


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## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Sorry I am never going to give Canon a pass on this one. They had press releases like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again. Did Canon extended any promises of thermal stability? Answer is: no. More over: limitations are clearly defined in the final specification so are by design. Consider your circumstances carefully. Do not buy if in doubt.
I understand that you are disappointed.

however your logic is false and shaky:

++++ the only reliable video frame rate and quality that you can get out of the R5 is the same thing you get out of the EOS R

A.M. : incorrect. R5 offers much broader range of video frame rates, non-cropped video, etc. Define reliability please?

++++ All Canon had to do was make an R6H version like Panasonic did, *make it bigger, add a fan*, give it backup video recording capabilities, and remove the recording time limit. *That would have been the perfect camera.*

A.M. what That would do to weather sealing in your opinion? This Is not a camcorder. Remember? This is primarily a still camera With hybrid and powerful video capabilities.

R5 is obviously not a right product for you. I got it. Why wouldn’t you move on and focus on what is important to you instead. life Is good


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## eat-sleep-code (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> My own personal pet peeve doesn't even have anything to do with overheating....why on earth Canon equips cameras with two card slots then only lets you create backup recordings for photography and not video is completely beyond me.



You do realize that an SD Card is not capable of ingesting 8K RAW or 4K 120 footage, right? The solution would be dual CF Express cards. Then people would complain that you needed to drop so much money on storage. Perhaps on the 1DX mirrorless replacement, but this is not the camera for that.


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## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> im just interested in knowing what 8k camera, with unlimited recording time, everyone is planning to buy today.


What is you budget, Sir.


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## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Here's something else Canon says, from the same piece (my emphasis) - you seem to have "accidentally" neglected to tell the whole story:
> 
> 
> Are you telling us that a camera that can do 4k 10 bit for as long as it's needed and cropped/uncropped 8k 10 bit _as well_, doesn't fulfil the criteria to be a pro _support _camera?
> ...


Well said.... Or inexpensive crash cam at under US$4K...


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## SecureGSM (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I did not accidentally neglect anything. the logic here is an AND statement not an OR statement ....it can be a lead production camera AND it can be a support camera. The part you are conveniently neglecting to add is that it overheats in pretty much all high quality modes including 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30. The only time it will not overheat is in line skipped modes which you can already get from the EOS R and many other camera bodies.
> 
> You also keep skipping the fact that you will only get those listed times at 73F. What happens when it is 100F and 100% humidity? What happens if you just need many short clips throughout the day will it still overheat? What happens when you shoot all day for a photo shoot then need to switch over to video, how soon will it overheat? Many real world scenarios will drastically lower the listed times and no customer will care why you are standing around waiting for your equipment to start working again...they are just going to hire someone else next time.
> 
> As a photography camera the R5 and R6 are fantastic, as hybrid cameras unless plenty of real world testing reveals otherwise, on paper so far they are not reliable enough to use for hybrid paying work, its just that simple. The problem is they are both marketed as paying gig production level hybrid cameras with a heavy emphasis on video and based on the thermal limitations I disagree with this viewpoint.



+++++What happens when it is 100F and 100%

A.M.: did you read R5/R6 specifications at all?

*maximum humidity level: 85%*

so... Proceed with caution and at you own risk. operating Your equipment outside of ... you know the gist..


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## LesC (Jul 15, 2020)

Discussion on heat here at around 13 minute mark:


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## TMHKR (Jul 15, 2020)

Kit. said:


> To be able to keep that effing cheetah in a 4K frame when cropped, especially given the laggy EVF?


120Hz EVF is laggy?


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Again. Did Canon extended any promises of thermal stability? Answer is: no. More over: limitations are clearly defined in the final specification so are by design. Consider your circumstances carefully. Do not buy if in doubt.
> I understand that you are disappointed.
> 
> however your logic is false and shaky:
> ...



It actually never was the right product for me, the R6 was more interesting and yes you are right, based on the final specs neither are the right camera for me, and yes I am disappointed....but I do think people are unfairly giving Canon a pass just because it is Canon so I voice my opinion when that's the way it appears to me.

Canon made the choices they did, there's nothing anyone on a forum can do about it except vote with their wallets but that doesn't mean we can't also voice our frustration and disappointment at the same time which is the whole point of having a forum to begin with.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

TMHKR said:


> 120Hz EVF is laggy?



It is compared to an OVF. The lag is the main reason I still prefer my 5DIV. Anything less than 0 lag is still lag..whether it is perceptible to the human eye remains to be seen. The other reason is battery life....an OVF does not require power.


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## JCLDEV (Jul 15, 2020)

So Canon is just confirming the temp/time/cool down limits.
Just buy 6 R5’s and cycle them


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

eat-sleep-code said:


> You do realize that an SD Card is not capable of ingesting 8K RAW or 4K 120 footage, right? The solution would be dual CF Express cards. Then people would complain that you needed to drop so much money on storage. Perhaps on the 1DX mirrorless replacement, but this is not the camera for that.



I didn't say anything about 8K footage...you do realize that in no modes on the R5, R6, or 1DX III can you do backup video recording right? BTW the 1DX III has two CF Express cards and the R6 has two SD cards. It would be perfectly acceptable if 8K and 4K120 could only be written to one card due to hardware limitations, but Canon refuses to add backup recording to any of their dual slot bodies.


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## Go Wild (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I did not accidentally neglect anything. the logic here is an AND statement not an OR statement ....it can be a lead production camera AND it can be a support camera. The part you are conveniently neglecting to add is that it overheats in pretty much all high quality modes including 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30. The only time it will not overheat is in line skipped modes which you can already get from the EOS R and many other camera bodies.
> 
> You also keep skipping the fact that you will only get those listed times at 73F. What happens when it is 100F and 100% humidity? What happens if you just need many short clips throughout the day will it still overheat? What happens when you shoot all day for a photo shoot then need to switch over to video, how soon will it overheat? Many real world scenarios will drastically lower the listed times and no customer will care why you are standing around waiting for your equipment to start working again...they are just going to hire someone else next time.
> 
> As a photography camera the R5 and R6 are fantastic, as hybrid cameras unless plenty of real world testing reveals otherwise, on paper so far they are not reliable enough to use for hybrid paying work, its just that simple. The problem is they are both marketed as paying gig production level hybrid cameras with a heavy emphasis on video and based on the thermal limitations I disagree with this viewpoint.



I do understand your concerns and myself I am a bit concern also. Bu not much! Lets see...In last weekend I was shooting with the A7R3, it was near 41ºc it was sooo hot! I was shooting 4k25fps and after 15mt camera overheat! Then i grabbed the Sony Fs5 and completed the scenes before I waited about 1 hour to film again with the gimble with the A7r3. My point is....You will always get overheat with mirrorless cameras that dont have fan cooling system. And even with cooling system I believe that if the day is too hot you get overheating. So the solution is to get 1 or more cameras or to get a dedicated cinema camera to pair. The best solution is to get a C300 and this one (The R5) as a B camera....Or...to get 2 or 3 bodies R5.

I think there is a big misinterpretation of this mirrorless cameras. The R5 is a hybrid camera, this is not an A7s2 or the new A7s3 which is a dedicated video centric mirrorless. So we need to understand that the R5 will not be perfect for video! But....And this is a biig but, despite is not perfect for video, it is really a monster!!! 4k120fps....4:2:2 10 bit....Man....If I want that I must shoot with the Atomos inferno and the Sony Fs5II and even with those I only have 8 seconds recording which is the equivalent of having about 1 minute video in a 25fps timeline.

So, for me 8k is a no go. I believe I will use it sometimes, but just in very special occasions when for example I need a big crop. 20 minutos film will be more than enough.
My concerns are in 4k120fps but lets be honest...Most of the times I shoot small bursts of 120fps. usually fast scenes that only lasts about 10 seconds or so. In this scenario I will not believe I have problems during 1 day of filming....Unless it is a very hot day and then I will have problems with ALL cameras except the ones with strong cooling sistems. My advice is always keep camera out of the direct sun and use an external fan to generate external cooling. This helps a lot! And they are cheap , small and portable.

If you plan to use 4k60fps all the time and film like vlogging style...well then you have a potencial problem...

So to finnish...If you want t use mirrorless cameras to make big productions, or if you know you film a lot of time during a hole day...Then maybe you may need to think in a different camera. But, for me i have another solution! I will buy the EOS R5 and R6. If, and IF the R5 get´s too hot, I will record with the R6 at 4k25fps and I wont have too many issues. I will use the R5 to the 4k120fps and to photography. And that´s it, problem solved!!  

I am looking forward to have my new babies!


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## BeenThere (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> It is compared to an OVF. The lag is the main reason I still prefer my 5DIV. Anything less than 0 lag is still lag..whether it is perceptible to the human eye remains to be seen. The other reason is battery life....an OVF does not require power.


Everything has lag. Even light travels at a finite speed. Lag is a continuum that has various implications depending on the severity. It is one of the trade off variable, but there other important ones as well. If you are picking nits, it does require power to flip the mirror if using an SLR; but, who is picking nits.


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## PureClassA (Jul 15, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I don't know. it entirely depends if they feed the HDMI port from the liveview feed.
> 
> but in reality there are a few tricks that Sony users have done - remove the battery and use USB / DC charge. open the LCD up, etc.
> 
> What's weird is that Canon is UPFRONT about all this. Sony you had to find out after you bought the camera - yet who's taking the heat? (literally)


Have to assume that Canon will keep doing things the same way they have until now. HDMI 2.0 should be able to support all these frame rate functions (minus 8K and 4K120 of course).


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## PureClassA (Jul 15, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> your suggestion is to buy More equipment or not use the video features that set this camera apart. That sort of defeats the purpose of buying the camera for many people:
> The camera specs that got the most attention were the video specs.
> 
> I plan on getting the R6 and sticking with 4K 60. I suspect that will work for me but I understand that some could be disappointed if the R5 has a heating issue



8K and 4K120 have to be done internally, but even wih the biggest CFExpress card, you'll hit the recording limit or fill the card about the same time this single continuous shot overheating issue becomes a problem... So What are you really missing? And again, I've never run across a situation where I'd single shot 4k120 for 30 mins anyhow.

And for all the other modes, if you're buying a $600 CFExpress card at 512MB... why not just buy a $600 Ninja? You're buying other equipment anyway with CFExpress.


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## twoheadedboy (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I did not accidentally neglect anything. the logic here is an AND statement not an OR statement ....it can be a lead production camera AND it can be a support camera. The part you are conveniently neglecting to add is that it overheats in pretty much all high quality modes including 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30. The only time it will not overheat is in line skipped modes which you can already get from the EOS R and many other camera bodies.
> 
> You also keep skipping the fact that you will only get those listed times at 73F. What happens when it is 100F and 100% humidity? What happens if you just need many short clips throughout the day will it still overheat? What happens when you shoot all day for a photo shoot then need to switch over to video, how soon will it overheat? Many real world scenarios will drastically lower the listed times and no customer will care why you are standing around waiting for your equipment to start working again...they are just going to hire someone else next time.
> 
> As a photography camera the R5 and R6 are fantastic, as hybrid cameras unless plenty of real world testing reveals otherwise, on paper so far they are not reliable enough to use for hybrid paying work, its just that simple. The problem is they are both marketed as paying gig production level hybrid cameras with a heavy emphasis on video and based on the thermal limitations I disagree with this viewpoint.



It is not in any way accurate to compare the EOS R's 4k 30p (8-bit color with 1.8x crop on 30 MP sensor w/DIGIC 8 and DPAF 1) with the R5's (10-bit color with no crop on 45 MP sensor w/DIGIC X and DPAF 2).


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## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I didn't say anything about 8K footage...you do realize that in no modes on the R5, R6, or 1DX III can you do backup video recording right?


Are you sure?

As I heard, you can simultaneously record 8K RAW (to CFExpress) and 4K IPB (to SD) on R5.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I did not accidentally neglect anything.


I'm well aware of that - you _deliberately _selectively quoted content that happened to support your narrative.



Trouble with that trick is that it only works if nobody else examines the source material properly. It tends to fall over when the people you're trying to con can read.

The_ fact_ is that Canon hasn't said (only) what you're insisting they said. They've been completely clear about how the R5 might be used, and because you don't like the message, you're trying to convince _us _that they said something else.

And look how that has worked out...


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> As I heard, you can simultaneously record 8K RAW (to CFExpress) and 4K IPB (to SD) on R5.



Kit, yes I am sure, and you are correct you can record two "different" formats to two different cards but that is proxy recording, that is not backup recording. True backup recording is simply simultaneously writing the same format to both cards. Having to record in 8K RAW just to get a backup is not an acceptable alternative to just being able to write other formats to both cards. The fact you can record 8K RAW and 4K simultaneously tells me it is not a hardware limitation it's just Canon doesn't feel it's important enough to include. Sony, Panasonic, and probably other brands as well all support this feature.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> I'm well aware of that - you _deliberately _selectively quoted content that happened to support your narrative.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are absolutely right...I did pick out of the press release from Canon the part of their press release that contradicts the reality of their second press release about overheating. If I agree with the rest of a narrative but am pointing out the parts that I disagree with why would I restate the obvious? Of course they also said it could be used as a support camera..so what we all know that already, and I have no problems with that part of their narrative. A camera that overheats in 30 seconds can be used as a support camera if you only need a 29 second clip.

My point was they did not stop there and they also said it could be the primary camera for a production.....this part of their narrative does not match the part where it will probably overheat when doing the things that a primary camera on a production is expected to do based on the paper specs we have been provided so far.

And BTW it is working out for me great...my bank account and my wallet thank Canon for making it easy for me to sit this one out. If real world reports show the whole thing is overblown and Canon adds backup video recording to the R6 then I'm back in the race. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I never even intended to get the R5 all I'm pointing out is that everyone is giving Canon a pass because they are documenting their overheating issues when we all had a good laugh at Sony when they had overheating issues.

What other industry in the world would just accept overheating when using a feature that was provided by the manufacturer as normal? Would you be OK if you bought a brand new car but it came with a warning that it would overheat every 50 miles and that you would have to wait 20min for it to cool down so that you could drive 5 more miles? We all love Canon here but come on....overheating in any context means the manufacturer did not do what was needed to prevent it...just because it is documented does not mean it has to be considered acceptable.


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## twoheadedboy (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> What other industry in the world would just accept overheating when using a feature that was provided by the manufacturer as normal? Would you be OK if you bought a brand new car but it came with a warning that it would overheat every 50 miles and that you would have to wait 20min for it to cool down so that you could drive 5 more miles? We all love Canon here but come on....overheating in any context means the manufacturer did not do what was needed to prevent it...just because it is documented does not mean it has to be considered acceptable.



Your car probably WOULD overheat or malfunction if you put the pedal to the floor for 20 straight minutes...that's what 8k 30/4k 120/4k 60/4k 30 HQ represent. Powerful computers without cooling do, as well. Copiers have a "duty cycle" that represents an approx. number of pages per month they can handle, and if you repeatedly and significantly exceed that, it increases the likelihood that it will break down (and can make you ineligible for a warranty replacement of the consumables).


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> Your car probably WOULD overheat or malfunction if you put the pedal to the floor for 20 straight minutes...that's what 8k 30/4k 120/4k 60/4k 30 HQ represent. Powerful computers without cooling do, as well. Copiers have a "duty cycle" that represents an approx. number of pages per month they can handle, and if you repeatedly and significantly exceed that, it increases the likelihood that it will break down (and can make you ineligible for a warranty replacement of the consumables).



Actually it wouldn't...want to know why, because modern cars have rev limiters and speed limiters to make sure they are reliable and they do not overheat. If you drive any modern car at top speed for 20 min and it overheats then you need to get a new car because it means either the rev limiter or speed limiter are not doing their job.

I get all modern equipment has well documented constraints on use....specifically though....thermal shutdown concerns are unique because many factors can make the actual time of shutdown vary widely. You can predict a copier will break down because you printed too much, you can predict a car will break down because you ran over a pothole, you cannot predict how close you will come to a thermal shutdown prior to a video shoot.

In fact, if you drove any modern car at top speed for every single day of its existence right up until the warranty expired....if it overheated even once you would still be covered by the warranty. That's because you were still driving it within the specifications set forth by the manufacturer and those parameters are enforced by the speed limiter and rev limiter.


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## twoheadedboy (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Actually it wouldn't...want to know why, because modern cars have rev limiters and speed limiters to make sure they are reliable and they do not overheat. If you drive any modern car at top speed for 20 min and it overheats then you need to get a new car because it means either the rev limiter or speed limiter are not doing their job. I get all modern equipment has well documented constraints on use....specifically though....thermal shutdown concerns are unique because many factors can make the actual time of shutdown vary widely. You can predict a copier will break down because you printed too much, you can predict a car will break down because you ran over a pothole, you cannot predict how close you will come to a thermal shutdown prior to a video shoot.



So in bringing up "rev limiters", you're essentially arguing that the camera shouldn't have been released with the higher-res, but limited, recording modes - that's fine, but that's a difference of opinion, not a scenario where anyone's been misled. And you can actually predict how much time you have before you have to pause due to heat because the camera tells you that before you start.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> So in bringing up "rev limiters", you're essentially arguing that the camera shouldn't have been released with the higher-res, but limited, recording modes - that's fine, but that's a difference of opinion, not a scenario where anyone's been misled. And you can actually predict how much time you have before you have to pause due to heat because the camera tells you that before you start.



Yes you are absolutely correct, I believe Canon should not have released a camera that had uncontrolled heat issues. Reliability is more important to people who make a living doing this than niche features that gives you bragging rights. They could have done many things...released a separate camera with a bigger body and a fan (Panasonic S1H style), simply not included the features that it could not reliably support, or set hard limits that are so low it is more likely to hit the hard limit way before the thermal limit (i.e limit certain modes to 60s or 120s).

I do applaud them for adding a feature that seems to countdown how much time is remaining based on the current temperature, at least this adds some clarity, but you still won't have a clue what that countdown will say until you are on set and filming.

I have never said they misled anyone, Canon never said this was a Cinema camera replacement or that 8K would be unlimited, I do think they were contradictory at times by so heavily hyping video features that they knew were thermally limited, but I don't think Canon misled anyone at all....as I previously stated I just think people are taking it too easy on Canon because they documented their thermal problems but they are ignoring the fact that no other industry considers uncontrolled overheating acceptable.


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## miketcool (Jul 15, 2020)

The R5 is a killer B-Cam tool to have. I plan on using it as a cinema B-Cam when filming, but as my main stills camera when shooting. That means in documentary work, it’ll get dual use. It should be noted that “15 minutes” of [email protected] is actually an hour of playback. I have never shot a slow motion scene for longer than 1 minute.


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## twoheadedboy (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Yes you are absolutely correct, I believe Canon should not have released a camera that had uncontrolled heat issues. Reliability is more important to people who make a living doing this than niche features that gives you bragging rights. They could have done many things...released a separate camera with a bigger body and a fan (Panasonic S1H style), simply not included the features that it could not reliably support, or set hard limits that are so low it is more likely to hit the hard limit way before the thermal limit (i.e limit certain modes to 60s or 120s).
> 
> I do applaud them for adding a feature that seems to countdown how much time is remaining based on the current temperature, at least this adds some clarity, but you still won't have a clue what that countdown will say until you are on set and filming.



Considering the reports indicating preorders exceeding expectations, most people don't agree with you. I really don't get the level of vitriol surrounding the limitations - which are physical, not a "rev rate limiter". If the limitations don't suit you, don't use the formats (the lower ones are still there, including 4k 30p non-HQ), or buy a product that suits your needs more closely.


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## bergstrom (Jul 15, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> im just interested in knowing what 8k camera, with unlimited recording time, everyone is planning to buy today.



8k is so yesterday! 16k baby!! I mean where does this HD stuff stop. How many K's do you need. In 10 years time are we going to be on 32k??


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> Considering the reports indicating preorders exceeding expectations, most people don't agree with you. I really don't get the level of vitriol surrounding the limitations - which are physical, not a "rev rate limiter". If the limitations don't suit you, don't use the formats (the lower ones are still there, including 4k 30p non-HQ), or buy a product that suits your needs more closely.



Preorders don't mean anything, they can be cancelled at anytime, and most of them were probably placed well before the issues were public. It will take at least a year or two before anyone knows how severe this problem is or how many people "agree with me". Financial revenue is the ultimate indicator of worldwide pleasure or displeasure and is the only reason we even have a R5 or R6 that can be pre-ordered.

Maybe it will amount to absolutely nothing, maybe it will be a huge issue that gets so much bad press Canon finds a way to fix it via firmware or releases new hardware...there is absolutely no way this early in the game to know what will happen.

I don't consider voicing an opinion in a non derogatory way vitriol at all. Over the years I have learned plenty from forums and I've even based some of my viewpoints on other people's opinions that I decided was logical, I don't see anything wrong at all in voicing your opinion even if you have already decided a product is not for you.

I decided the R5 and R6 were not for me the minute I saw neither offer backup recording. Clearly I am in the minority and that is fine, but that doesn't prevent me from continuing to voice my opinion on where I feel they failed in the thermal control department.


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## Jonathan Thill (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Yes you are absolutely correct, I believe Canon should not have released a camera that had *uncontrolled heat issues*. Reliability is more important to people who make a living doing this than niche features that gives you bragging rights. They could have done many things...released a separate camera with a bigger body and a fan (Panasonic S1H style), simply not included the features that it could not reliably support, or set hard limits that are so low it is more likely to hit the hard limit way before the thermal limit (i.e limit certain modes to 60s or 120s).
> 
> I do applaud them for adding a feature that seems to countdown how much time is remaining based on the current temperature, at least this adds some clarity, but you still won't have a clue what that countdown will say until you are on set and filming.
> 
> I have never said they misled anyone, Canon never said this was a Cinema camera replacement or that 8K would be unlimited, I do think they were contradictory at times by so heavily hyping video features that they knew were thermally limited, but I don't think Canon misled anyone at all....as I previously stated I just think people are taking it too easy on Canon because they documented their thermal problems but they are ignoring the fact that no other industry considers *uncontrolled overheating* acceptable.


I was not going to feed the troll but "uncontrolled heat issues" WTF is wrong with your ability to understand that Thermal Protection is by definition CONTROLLING THE HEAT.

Seems like you are almost there with understanding the countdown timer and I suspect that given enough time you will get it but damn... Uncontrolled heat...


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I was not going to feed the troll but "uncontrolled heat issues" WTF is wrong with your ability to understand that Thermal Protection is by definition CONTROLLING THE HEAT.
> 
> Seems like you are almost there with understand the countdown timer and I suspect that given enough time you will get it but damn... Uncontrolled heat...



Ahh there's the vitriol...but ok...let me define uncontrolled heat issues for you: If a product cannot dissipate heat as fast as it generates it and must shut down due to overheating while using it within the manufacturers guidelines that is called uncontrolled heat issues.

Does your car overheat when using it within manufacturers specifications, does *ANY* other equipment you own overheat when using them as they were intended? Thermal protection is NOT controlling the heat..it is shutting down the camera because it cannot control the heat. Controlling the heat would be enabling sufficient cooling so that the operation of the camera was not impacted...get it now?

What would happen if nuclear reactors had to shut down every few hours due to overheating, would you think that was acceptable as long as they told you beforehand that you were going to lose power in your house?


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## jayphotoworks (Jul 15, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> As I heard, you can simultaneously record 8K RAW (to CFExpress) and 4K IPB (to SD) on R5.



Where was this posted or shared? It was originally rumored that neither the R5 or R6 can do dual card recording.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> Where was this posted or shared? It was originally rumored that neither the R5 or R6 can do dual card recording.



It is in the full spec sheet for the R5 and the 1DX III, you can do dual card recording but only if you are shooting RAW.


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## cornieleous (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> You are absolutely right...I did pick out of the press release from Canon the part of their press release that contradicts the reality of their second press release about overheating. If I agree with the rest of a narrative but am pointing out the parts that I disagree with why would I restate the obvious? Of course they also said it could be used as a support camera..so what we all know that already, and I have no problems with that part of their narrative. A camera that overheats in 30 seconds can be used as a support camera if you only need a 29 second clip.
> 
> My point was they did not stop there and they also said it could be the primary camera for a production.....this part of their narrative does not match the part where it will probably overheat when doing the things that a primary camera on a production is expected to do based on the paper specs we have been provided so far.
> 
> ...



Here we go again with '8K is normal" and should work for infinity in a tiny body for a low price. It's not just acceptable but desirable to be irrational these days, apparently. No one is giving anyone a pass and blasting generalizations about people you disagree with is never a good start. Most of us are being reasonable about a new technology while you are expecting Canon to defy the laws of physics and to personally provide you with the impossible for whatever price you think is fair. You think they should have 'done what was needed' to stop overheating even if that would require compromising the entire rest of the camera, and for what? WHO, rationally, is shooting 8K or oversampled 4K60 indefinitely? Did you whine endlessly when Sony put out one of the first 4K MILC and it overheated? Did you call it a lemon moan about it? Are you on the AMD or Intel forums complaining that you should be able to overclock to 6 GHz or else their latest chip is a lemon? Like to see the cryogenic heatsink you think they should bolt onto their processor because overclocking to the end of what is possible is "normal operation". 

Name one other camera that can shove out as much video data as the R5 will in a MILC and not overheat? There are none. The closest is the SH1, with its 6K, a fan, crappy focus, and a lot of engineering compromises and undesirable lens lineup, plus it costs more and lacks 8K. Heat is a basic problem for all electronics- lots of transistors reading out big sensors at fast rates means heat. Clearly you know nothing about the details of how anything works or why there is a limitation on the R5 and R6, albeit a pretty irrelevant one for most of us. 

Imagine you even tried to use the R5: Do you even own a multi thousand dollar computer that can handle the 8K or oversampled 4K editing workflow? I have a fairly high spec. machine with lots of CPU, GPU, SSD, and RAM, and it is not ready for 8K without lots of time spent coding proxies and a heck of a lot more SSD project space. Do you have a single 700 dollar memory card to record just 20 minutes of 8K? How many were you going to get before you invest in a dedicated cinema camera and recorder? Where are your 8K monitors? How much hard drive do you have in raid arrays? I have 32TB and that won't be enough for an 8K project of any length, especially not with all my other data and projects. 

These new R5/6 cameras can indeed be used on a production alone- by professionals with shot lists who don't just run their camera perpetually in ridiculous resolutions for long periods of time for no reason like some first day wedding photographer. The vast majority of professionals understand basic physics of electronics and that all tools have limitations. They probably have budgets to buy whatever is needed to utilize this tool realistically- like maybe a second body because even if you can shoot an 8K or 4K60 production with one camera, that is a really limited approach for most scenarios and if you are shooting a project that actually needs that resolution or rate, you probably are doing something really expensive anyway. 

From the vast majority of complaints about an unshipped camera, It seems to be only complete amateurs who want a cinema camera they can use as a GoPro who have so many problems with this release. That or youtube shills who make their living with baseless opinions and controversy (sellouts, not real creatives). Truly, no one is interested in you sitting this one out, who cares?! You act like you are so intellectually superior but didn't make one cogent argument. You are so obviously being irrational and seem to be one of those perpetually entitled negative people. As if Canon has slighted you personally. 

Your car analogy is the worst logical fallacy I have seen in a long while; what a ridiculous comparison. Brand new technology is in no way normal or perfect. If you want a comparable car analogy talk about new features that are firsts: look at how many infotainment systems have issues on first model years, or how sensing and driver assist systems of some brands were so awful as to be dangerous when first rolled out; and some still are. New features that push the envelope of what is possible are never as good as they will be with refinement- DUH! Engineering is actually pretty hard despite the spoiled masses having the result handed to them as if it was nothing. In any product be it a bridge, car, or camera, compromises must always be made to get a product to market. If I had it my way, the fruits of engineering and science would be banned and denied to the self entitled complaining masses who regard technology as magic and think they are always owed more for less. Let those whiners use sticks and stones or invent their own tools.

The bottom line is, by any reasonable accounting, these new R cameras are fantastic stills camera at the same price point roughly as their predecessors with some cutting edge, capable, and very usable video features for the vast majority of realistic use cases. Yet you present it as if its some lemon car....


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## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Actually it wouldn't...want to know why, because modern cars have rev limiters and speed limiters to make sure they are reliable and they do not overheat.


The engines don't.
The brakes do.

So, the engines go "Canon", the brakes go "Sony".


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## Tangent (Jul 15, 2020)

It wasn't that long ago that we complained when Canon withheld 4K due to overheating issues. Now Canon gives us 8K functionality but expects users to work within its limits. I prefer this latter approach. 

I think it's reasonable to expect that someone who forks over thousands for a camera body will take the time to familiarize themselves with its operational parameters. Or, more simply, RTFM. (Read The Furnished Manual -- and supporting tech notes.)


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## Booyahcasa22 (Jul 15, 2020)

I haven’t read through all the comments on this thread but did you all know that not all, or possibly any current, CFExpress cards work with 8K Raw? I was able to have hands on time today with a production unit and when I asked the Canon rep why 8K recording didn’t work he said that a lot of current CFExpress cards don’t work because the write speeds are actually much lower than what is stated. He could not recommend any current CFExpress card that would definitely work with 8K.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Here we go again with '8K is normal" and should work for infinity in a tiny body for a low price. It's not just acceptable but desirable to be irrational these days, apparently. No one is giving anyone a pass and blasting generalizations about people you disagree with is never a good start. Most of us are being reasonable about a new technology while you are expecting Canon to defy the laws of physics and to personally provide you with the impossible for whatever price you think is fair. You think they should have 'done what was needed' to stop overheating even if that would require compromising the entire rest of the camera, and for what? WHO, rationally, is shooting 8K or oversampled 4K60 indefinitely? Did you whine endlessly when Sony put out one of the first 4K MILC and it overheated? Did you call it a lemon moan about it? Are you on the AMD or Intel forums complaining that you should be able to overclock to 6 GHz or else their latest chip is a lemon? Like to see the cryogenic heatsink you think they should bolt onto their processor because overclocking to the end of what is possible is "normal operation".
> 
> Name one other camera that can shove out as much video data as the R5 will in a MILC and not overheat? There are none. The closest is the SH1, with its 6K, a fan, crappy focus, and a lot of engineering compromises and undesirable lens lineup, plus it costs more and lacks 8K. Heat is a basic problem for all electronics- lots of transistors reading out big sensors at fast rates means heat. Clearly you know nothing about the details of how anything works or why there is a limitation on the R5 and R6, albeit a pretty irrelevant one for most of us.
> 
> ...



You start off talking about 8K and ignoring all the other modes that causes it to overheat. But none of that is relevant to me, I couldn't care less about 8k; your entire narrative boils down to the fact that you agree stability should be scarified for the sake of innovation and I disagree. Canon has always been known for stability....clearly this time around they chose to sacrifice that for innovation, only time will tell if they made the right decision. The rest of your rant isn't worth reading or responding to. For me it still comes down to one simple missing feature in the R6 otherwise I would have been willing to give it a try for real world performance.


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## zim (Jul 15, 2020)

Booyahcasa22 said:


> I haven’t read through all the comments on this thread but did you all know that not all, or possibly any current, CFExpress cards work with 8K Raw? I was able to have hands on time today with a production unit and when I asked the Canon rep why 8K recording didn’t work he said that a lot of current CFExpress cards don’t work because the write speeds are actually much lower than what is stated. He could not recommend any current CFExpress card that would definitely work with 8K.


And yet what seems like the whole world is out there recording 8k and setting fire to things....


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## gmon750 (Jul 15, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> I find the heat issue very disturbing. There is a need to have this small sized camera for video work on a gimbal. Few years back I used 7DII to shoot TEDx conference. It was one time job in a life. But I did it. I'll still wait for a full frame camera with interchangeable lens that can shoot 4K/60, unlimited recording time and a decent codec. The R mount and drop in filter adapters could solve even the ND issue on DSLRs. With little money we could add that feature found in cinema cameras. But, I guess, Cannon won't offer this for a low price. 1DXIII has no issues regarding overheating. R6, instead, for less money, with the same sensor, has this problem. Finally everything is about marketing, about money. I'm happy that Canon somehow answered. It's a shame.
> EDIT: overheating is real:


The overheating is real for just about every camera that shoots 4K. 

People are just making it a bigger deal because it's Canon. It's a non-issue for most buyers of this camera.


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## Drcampbellicu (Jul 15, 2020)

We don’t have all the information but canon is implying that the camera may need to shut down due to heat. If you shoot 20 min videos then you could just switch the card out but when it’s a heat issue you have to turn off the camera and let it rest. Or use another camera 
It’s really different 



PureClassA said:


> 8K and 4K120 have to be done internally, but even wih the biggest CFExpress card, you'll hit the recording limit or fill the card about the same time this single continuous shot overheating issue becomes a problem... So What are you really missing? And again, I've never run across a situation where I'd single shot 4k120 for 30 mins anyhow.
> 
> And for all the other modes, if you're buying a $600 CFExpress card at 512MB... why not just buy a $600 Ninja? You're buying other equipment anyway with CFExpress.


----------



## GoldWing (Jul 15, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



If you shoot in the tropics as we do this issue was prevalent in the first copies of the Canon 1DXMKII's and Canon fixed it. Actually they replaced those copies so we're not aware of how they fixed it but they did. 

I would not worry as *Canon is very good at addressing issues like this and standing 100% behind the product if it has a fault. *

I would however say, there are so many better solutions for video and if you shoot in a warm or tropical climate, this should not be your first choice. 

However, if you're married to it.... Let Canon keep fixing it until it works. 

Good luck


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## sanj (Jul 15, 2020)

LesC said:


> Discussion on heat here at around 13 minute mark:


He mentions R6 is better for low light.


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## sanj (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Yes you are absolutely correct, I believe Canon should not have released a camera that had uncontrolled heat issues. Reliability is more important to people who make a living doing this than niche features that gives you bragging rights. They could have done many things...released a separate camera with a bigger body and a fan (Panasonic S1H style), simply not included the features that it could not reliably support, or set hard limits that are so low it is more likely to hit the hard limit way before the thermal limit (i.e limit certain modes to 60s or 120s).
> 
> I do applaud them for adding a feature that seems to countdown how much time is remaining based on the current temperature, at least this adds some clarity, but you still won't have a clue what that countdown will say until you are on set and filming.
> 
> I have never said they misled anyone, Canon never said this was a Cinema camera replacement or that 8K would be unlimited, I do think they were contradictory at times by so heavily hyping video features that they knew were thermally limited, but I don't think Canon misled anyone at all....as I previously stated I just think people are taking it too easy on Canon because they documented their thermal problems but they are ignoring the fact that no other industry considers uncontrolled overheating acceptable.


Noooo. I am very happy they released this. And I will create art with it very happily. Very easily. Very effectively. You can continue complaining while rest of the world runs with it.


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## sanj (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Actually it wouldn't...want to know why, because modern cars have rev limiters and speed limiters to make sure they are reliable and they do not overheat. If you drive any modern car at top speed for 20 min and it overheats then you need to get a new car because it means either the rev limiter or speed limiter are not doing their job.
> 
> I get all modern equipment has well documented constraints on use....specifically though....thermal shutdown concerns are unique because many factors can make the actual time of shutdown vary widely. You can predict a copier will break down because you printed too much, you can predict a car will break down because you ran over a pothole, you cannot predict how close you will come to a thermal shutdown prior to a video shoot.
> 
> In fact, if you drove any modern car at top speed for every single day of its existence right up until the warranty expired....if it overheated even once you would still be covered by the warranty. That's because you were still driving it within the specifications set forth by the manufacturer and those parameters are enforced by the speed limiter and rev limiter.


The 'RV limiter' is 20 mins. Simple. But very bad comparison in any case.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 15, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> We don’t have all the information but canon is implying that the camera may need to shut down due to heat. If you shoot 20 min videos then you could just switch the card out but when it’s a heat issue you have to turn off the camera and let it rest. Or use another camera
> It’s really different


If you need to shoot for 20mins then don't shoot in a mode that overheats before or close to 20mins.

What Canon has done with Thermal Protection and giving the user a rough estimate on screen how long you can shoot in a given mode means there is no logical reason to try and record 10mins of 8K when the camera is saying you have 4 mins of 8k footage available at the current temperature of the camera.

To the make the same point that has been made over and over again in this thread and I am sure in every thread discussing the thermal protection "issue". * If your needs as film maker exceed the capabilities of the R5 or R6 you will have to find a tool that can meets those needs. *


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## Bert63 (Jul 15, 2020)

sanj said:


> He mentions R6 is better for low light.



Bigger pixels = better light gathering. Not surprised - it’s reflected in the ISO ratings.


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think the biggest problem with this type of problem is the ambiguity of it all, the chart looks great on paper but the one thing that really stands out for me is that one little number at the top of the chart 73F, and we don't even know if humidity will make that worse. I live in FL and shoot in 90+ temps and 100% humidity 8 months out of the year, my gear sits in 120F and 100% humidity cars regularly while I shoot other portions of a shoot (aerial, photography, video, underwater, etc.) so it could be hours before I need a particular piece of gear.
> 
> When they release a chart like that I immediately start to wonder how those factors will affect it in the real world, and I can't even imagine standing around on a paid shoot telling a client we need to wait for my equipment to cool down. So I think this is why people are losing their minds over this...these cameras were heavily marketed towards hybrid video/photo shooters but there are so many caveats in the video department that it's too risky to really use on a paid hybrid shoot. So in that case you are back to using something else for those scenarios and for hybrid shooters with paying clients this is a let down.
> 
> ...



I've read a lot of your posts in this thread and I'm in agreement with everything your are saying (as far as I recall). Most of it is about the heat issue. What upsets me the most is that it's in 4k (I have no interest in 8K), and that 73F number and no idea when it's greater.

This was also interesting, as you pointed out:
_Richard Shepherd, Pro Product Marketing Senior Manager, said:
“With its ability to record in cinema industry-standard formats and codecs, the EOS R5 is an ideal lead camera for many productions but also, given its compatibility with cinema workflows, the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets.”_

But I haven't thought too much about the video only going to 1 card. Even in 1080 it only records to 1 card?


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## PureClassA (Jul 15, 2020)

Besisika said:


> I am a photographer first as well and interested mostly in the 45MP. However, I shoot band and choir concerts quite often on my 1DX II.
> If you tell us more what disappoints you most among the video limits, someone with better experience may suggest how would you use the camera once you get it. I am assuming that you want to frame, press record, take a comfortable sit, wait until the concert is finished and press stop. But I am assuming and I can be wrong.
> Let us know.


H


freejay said:


> I'm a little disappointed that there are so many limits in the video modes. I also like to shoot whole concerts for bands and even with no overheating limit in some modes I still have to restart the recording every 30 minutes...
> But apart from that: I'm very excited and looking forward to my R5: As a photo camera (and I will use it this way mostly) it will be absolutely great. I'm pretty sure about that!



How long are these concerts? I shoot these sorts of things regularly myself. Going over 30 mins is normal. In fact, a 30 minute concert would be rather unusual.

Can I assume then you are recording externally in that case? Or are you stopping before the limit and starting a new shot? If you're shooting these things professionally for hire, I have to imagine you're shooting externally with something like this.

If you have 60-90 min concerts, you're pushing the envelope on internal cards anyway, even if you could go that long in a single shot, provided you're shooting in 4K... not to mention the fact that the LPE6N battery wouldn't even last that long, unless you have AC power into the camera.

So again, we keep going back to EXTERNAL recording, *especially in the exact situation you just described*. Because recording video in camera at or above 30 mins triggers additional licensing fees and registrations in certain countries, and Canon isn't going to pop that ceiling on a non-Cinema line camera. And there's no reason for them to.

I shot dual cameras last week with an EOS R and 1DX2. One wide, one tight/follow. EOS R was going to the Ninja collecting a master wide shot that ran uninterrupted for the length of the performance. 90 mins. 1DX2 was recording internally... cuz that's all it can do in 4k. Start Stop Start Stop Start Stop... Pain in the ASS to then have to 1) re-encode the footage to ProRes afterward for editing and then 2) have to manually sync up all the separate clips over the master wide timeline. Otherwise, you can't multi-cam edit.

This is why I can't wait for my R6 to show up. No more problem. Two cameras that can both sling 4k out to an external. One sync "CLACK" at the beginning right after I hit record. Now I have two, synced, single, uninterrupted clips recorded on much cheaper SSDs in lovely ProResHQ 4K codec. Drop right into Adobe Premier. Smooth as silk editing with perfect ready to roll multicam editing.


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## PureClassA (Jul 15, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> We don’t have all the information but canon is implying that the camera may need to shut down due to heat. If you shoot 20 min videos then you could just switch the card out but when it’s a heat issue you have to turn off the camera and let it rest. Or use another camera
> It’s really different



Canon isn't implying. They are telling us. And it's only in a couple specific modes that will be far more seldom employed. 4k24 will be fine, 4k30 will be fine etc... The super-oversampled 4k modes may present issues at 30 mins. But SO WHAT?? Record it off camera. Done. 

A $600 512GB CFExpress card will fill up completely at 20 mins of 8K shooting. Therefore, roughly the same for 4K120. 

Again, what on earth is anyone shooting 4k120 for 20 mins straight, single clip? How often is this happening for this situation???

And if you really depend on that highly unusual need for your professional use, you are probably NOT going for an R5. You're buying a bigger Cinema camera.


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## dtaylor (Jul 15, 2020)

sanj said:


> He mentions R6 is better for low light.



Everyone believes that lower pixel density sensors are better for low light on the basis that "larger pixels collect more light." Which is true, but which ignores the reality that with gapless micro lenses the total amount of light collected will be the same for a given sensor size regardless of pixel density. This idea is then reinforced by pixel peeping, where the higher density sensor is enlarged more, and by qualitative differences in noise structure which are related to pixel density. The noise pattern in a high density sensor is sharper and therefore can appear to be more obtrusive.

In reality the noise quantity is nearly the same when images are presented at the same view size. As for the "sharper" aspect of noise on higher pixel density sensors: everything is sharper and more detailed. If it bothers you at a given view size, or in comparison to a lower density sensor at the same view size, simply trade off some of your excess sharpness/detail for a cleaner image using NR.

The other thing that everyone seems to believe is that we are making leaps and bounds in high ISO performance with each camera generation. In fact it is difficult to find a pair of FF cameras made in the last decade which show a 1ev difference at high ISO. Using DPReview's comparison tool I have to pit the Sony A7 mark II...known for having sub par high ISO for a FF sensor...against a Canon 1DX mark III. I cannot say the 1DX3 is a full 1ev better than a 5D mark III, a 6D, or a 5Ds/sR. If I pit a 5Ds/sR against much newer high density sensors in the D850 or A7rIII/rIV I'm hard pressed to see a half stop gain, which is about what I expect from an R5.

Mind you, 'common wisdom' is that the 5Ds/sR were horrible at high ISO, the Sony's are great at high ISO, and a low pixel density sensor like the 1DX mark III should wipe the floor with everything.

tl;dr - choose between the R5 and R6 for other reasons. They both will have good high ISO because they are both FF cameras. And if there is a difference to be found between them, it will likely be less than 0.5ev.

*Edit:* it's too bad Imaging Resource scaled back their operations. The Output Quality section of their camera reviews used to provide an excellent gauge of how cameras really compared at high ISO. You'll find their observations of actual prints often bucked the 'common wisdom' surrounding high ISO performance.


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 15, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> So in bringing up "rev limiters", you're essentially arguing that the camera shouldn't have been released with the higher-res, but limited, recording modes - that's fine, but that's a difference of opinion, not a scenario where anyone's been misled. And you can actually predict how much time you have before you have to pause due to heat because the camera tells you that before you start.



I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?


----------



## gmon750 (Jul 15, 2020)

Trolls and haters are out in full force. As if they're all upset about the 8K limits, conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room that in order to record 8K footage at max duration will require a 512GB CFAST card that runs about $600.

But hey... you keep pushing your agenda.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?


Sounds like a job that needs an external recorder.

Unfortunately don't think you'll get any definitive answers, not now. All we have is that chart, and observations on people who have used pre-production models.

But I would seriously use an external recorder in your use case.

Edit: I also heard that the camera will give you an estimated run time that factors in the current camera temperature.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I've read a lot of your posts in this thread and I'm in agreement with everything your are saying (as far as I recall). Most of it is about the heat issue. What upsets me the most is that it's in 4k (I have no interest in 8K), and that 73F number and no idea when it's greater.
> 
> This was also interesting, as you pointed out:
> _Richard Shepherd, Pro Product Marketing Senior Manager, said:
> ...



To be certain I emailed Canon and they said the R6 and R5 do not support backup video recording. The R5 supports proxy recording but you have to shoot in 8K to get that.




Baron_Karza said:


> I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?



Even Canon can't answer you and therein lies the problem, I have no problems with limits as long as I know what they are, but 4K60 is a very common format and there is no way to know ahead of time how long it will record in that mode.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

gmon750 said:


> Trolls and haters are out in full force. As if they're all upset about the 8K limits, conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room that in order to record 8K footage at max duration will require a 512GB CFAST card that runs about $600.
> 
> But hey... you keep pushing your agenda.



No..the elephant in the room is that it also will overheat in 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30 depending on the scenario yet this is supposed to be acceptable. Did you read the whole chart or just the lines that fit your comment? The other elephant in the room is that the entire chart is based on an unrealistically low 73F ambient temp from a cold start.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> but 4K60 is a very common format and there is no way to know ahead of time how long it will record in that mode.



Really? Not in this segment its not.

Canon is the first and only to come out with uncropped full frame 4K60 with the R5 & R6 in a hybrid mirrorless body.


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 15, 2020)

gmon750 said:


> Trolls and haters are out in full force. As if they're all upset about the 8K limits, conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room that in order to record 8K footage at max duration will require a 512GB CFAST card that runs about $600.
> 
> But hey... you keep pushing your agenda.



So are the Canon-Butt-Kissers appologizing for any flaws as not being an issues because All-Mighty-Canon-God is perfection. 

Please, what is the point of these forums if we're restricted to only be able to write positive or write negative things about products. People have differences in opinions....I was only kidding in my above paragraph. I like to play devil's advocate to get a wide range of opinions to help with my purchasing decisions. But at the same time, need to make sure to separate fact from fiction.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Bigger pixels = better light gathering.


Not true now, not true ever.

Come on: with pretty much every camera series in existence, pixel count has increased (so smaller pixels) _and at the same time, noise performance has improved._


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> This was also interesting, as you pointed out:
> _Richard Shepherd, Pro Product Marketing Senior Manager, said:
> “With its ability to record in cinema industry-standard formats and codecs, the EOS R5 is an ideal lead camera for many productions but also, given its compatibility with cinema workflows, the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets.”_


No, _I_ pointed that out.

He tried to pretend that Canon never said it, as it rather stomps on the unsupportable point he was trying to make.


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## PureClassA (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?



As Bokeh said, sounds like you want an external recording device. The money you'll spend on a capable CFExpress card for 4k60 using an ALL-I codec will be at least $300 for a 256MB card. To be safe, you'll want to buy the $600 512MB card. Wanna record for in 4k60 for 90mins+ with room to spare? Pup out $1500 for the 1TB CFExpress card. 

THEN, have fun editing 4k60 in that very robust yet unfortunately clunky codec. You'll be sending that through Media Encoder and letting your computer run over night to put it into ProResHQ so you can manipulate it without having any constant stutter in playback.

-OR-

Instead of spending all that money for ONE card, you could buy a $600 recorder that does 4k60 natively in ProResHQ with Canon C-Log 10bit 422 while using a cheap $130, 1TB SSD. (make sure you get the fastest SSD drives, not the cheapest ones). Then you also have a MUCH nicer monitor with all the bells and whistles for video recording and monitoring. Plus you don't have to wait hours and hours to re-encode your footage into a far more editing friendly format. PLUS - you can shoot on a single LPE6N battery for 90-120 mins vs recording internally at that 4k60 speed and having a battery only last a fraction of that, making you stop and reload 2-3 times IF you have the spares charged up to do it. Otherwise you may want to invest a few bucks in an AC adapter for the camera.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Did you read the whole chart or just the lines that fit your comment?


Seriously?

From you?


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## dtaylor (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?



Which hybrid, fan-less, FF camera can record 4k 60p no-crop video in 95F, noon sun weather without overheating?


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> Really? Not in this segment its not.
> 
> Canon is the first and only to come out with uncropped full frame 4K60 with the R5 & R6 in a hybrid mirrorless body.



4K60 is not uncommon at all, uncropped full frame sure that's very uncommon but what good is it if it overheats when you try to use it? When you need 4K60 which is very common there is no mode that will not overheat, that was my point.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So are the Canon-Butt-Kissers appologizing for any flaws as not being an issues because All-Mighty-Canon-God is perfection.


Why is is that dim trolls like you always equate a simple Real World understanding that nothing is life is perfect, with being a "Canon butt kisser"?

Are you really that comprehension-impaired?


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## Keith_Reeder (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> what good is it if it overheats when you try to use it?


But it doesn't do that, does it?

It _might_ get hot before you're finished (in which case, plan your shots better) but it's just as likely - probably more likely - that it won't.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> But it doesn't do that, does it?
> 
> It _might_ get hot before you're finished (in which case, plan your shots better) but it's just as likely - probably more likely - that it won't.



So you have a production model in your hand, you've shot a couple hundred hours on it in direct sunlight on 100F days and you have statistical data to backup that statement...no of course not, so in other words your statement makes no sense at all and is made strictly from a "Canon walks on water and can do no wrong" viewpoint. I get this is a Canon forum but take off the blinders and realize at least briefly that maybe just maybe overheating just might be a real problem and without real world feedback all we have to go on is what Canon has already released which is nowhere near enough information to know how bad the situation is going to get in real world use.

Do you really think it is such a minor issue when Peter McKinnon a "Canon ambassador of light" still felt he had to mention it in an otherwise glowing review of all things Canon? What that probably means is he experienced it first hand and I'm pretty sure he was not shooting 20min of 8K raw video.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> 4K60 is not uncommon at all, uncropped full frame sure that's very uncommon but what good is it if it overheats when you try to use it? When you need 4K60 which is very common there is no mode that will not overheat, that was my point.


Well there's physics involved. Full frame is a bigger sensor, more processing, more heat so there are engineering tradeoffs.

So if sensor size isn't a big deal, then I believe you could shoot in 4K60 non HQ (not oversampled) crop mode without overheating. I could be wrong, but I thought I heard this in one of the myriad videos I watched yesterday.


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## Besisika (Jul 15, 2020)

gmon750 said:


> Trolls and haters are out in full force. As if they're all upset about the 8K limits, conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room that in order to record 8K footage at max duration will require a 512GB CFAST card that runs about $600.
> 
> But hey... you keep pushing your agenda.


Not to mention that:
- the bigger the file, the more chance to loose an entire recording due to file corruption.
- the more important the file is, the more copies you should get and more copies you should store.
- the bigger the file, the longer to copy it to your computer
- the bigger the file, the harder to work with it in post, and with Premiere Pro crashing so often, the more frustrated you will be
- the bigger the file, the stronger computer you need, more money to spend on new GPU and CPU.
But hey ... everybody was awaken.

Can you imagine the amount of people who haven't shot video before (or used only camcorder) deciding to join the 8K parade, if the R5 8K was "perfect"?
I am wondering if Canon will deliver a perfect 8K R1 at a higher price.
The funny thing to me is that nobody has a production camera yet, and "everybody" feels betrayed. You didn't taste the food yet, and you yell at the cook based on the menu. He actually didn't even finished cooking it yet. He told you about it a week within the announcement and you feel offended already. 
I am wondering what happened if they didn't say anything about it, let us all pay for it then discover the so-called "fault".

Reading these complaints, I finally see what they said about us photographers being convinced that shooting a video is just pointing a camera to a subject then pressing a record button.


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## Amy Worrall (Jul 15, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> So again, we keep going back to EXTERNAL recording, *especially in the exact situation you just described*. Because recording video in camera at or above 30 mins triggers additional licensing fees and registrations in certain countries, and Canon isn't going to pop that ceiling on a non-Cinema line camera. And there's no reason for them to.



No reason, apart from they're competing with cellphones these days. My phone can record until its storage is full, in 4k.

I'm not a professional, but I am buying my first proper camera (I went with the R6) right now. A cine camera definitely wasn't on the cards — I want a camera to learn still photography, make youtube videos, and sometimes record shows for amateur theatre. While I do wish the R6 had a 4k mode that didn't overheat (like the R5 does), the 30 minute limit is actually more annoying to me, because my much cheaper multi-purpose device (cellphone) can do it. 

I'll probably buy an external recorder. But I feel annoyed that I have to


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> Well there's physics involved. Full frame is a bigger sensor, more processing, more heat so there are engineering tradeoffs.
> 
> So if sensor size isn't a big deal, then I believe you could shoot in 4K60 non HQ (not oversampled) crop mode without overheating. I could be wrong, but I thought I heard this in one of the myriad videos I watched yesterday.



According to EOSHD there is no 4K60 mode that does not have thermal limits and I think this one is the one where people will be most likely to run into thermal issues because it is the most common to use on a gimbal. Once again...no one is saying they need 30min of non stop 4K60 footage but other environmental factors may make the useable duration much shorter than that:






A closer look at the Canon EOS R5 lower quality 4K mode to avoid thermal cut-off – EOSHD.com – Filmmaking Gear and Camera Reviews







www.eoshd.com


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## dtaylor (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Actually it wouldn't...want to know why, because modern cars have rev limiters and speed limiters to make sure they are reliable and they do not overheat. If you drive any modern car at top speed for 20 min and it overheats then you need to get a new car because it means either the rev limiter or speed limiter are not doing their job.



You don't know what you're talking about here. A top speed run is one of the most stressful things you can do to a sports car due to the heat/stress encountered by the motor under sustained max rpm. And the few people who get to do it don't hold their car's top speed for 20m. You can't even get close to top speed on most race courses. Outside of sections of Germany's autobahn people generally only get to test their car's top speed if a club manages to get access to a closed freeway or an especially long runway for a day. 

Drag racing is a quarter mile burst. Race courses have turns and your foot can be on the brake as much as the gas. Even police chases don't generally see someone hold the pedal to the floor for 20 straight minutes. And yes, even exotic sports cars will suffer thermal damage in a 20m flat out run, especially in warm weather.



> In fact, if you drove any modern car at top speed for every single day of its existence right up until the warranty expired....if it overheated even once you would still be covered by the warranty.



   I've seen Ford refuse warranty service on a hard run Mustang for less. Keep in mind Ford EXPECTS you to drag and course race Mustang GT's.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Amy Worrall said:


> No reason, apart from they're competing with cellphones these days. My phone can record until its storage is full, in 4k.
> 
> I'm not a professional, but I am buying my first proper camera (I went with the R6) right now. A cine camera definitely wasn't on the cards — I want a camera to learn still photography, make youtube videos, and sometimes record shows for amateur theatre. While I do wish the R6 had a 4k mode that didn't overheat (like the R5 does), the 30 minute limit is actually more annoying to me, because my much cheaper multi-purpose device (cellphone) can do it.
> 
> I'll probably buy an external recorder. But I feel annoyed that I have to



For your use case the R6 will be perfectly fine, actually the EOS R would have even been perfectly fine.


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## Amy Worrall (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> For your use case the R6 will be perfectly fine, actually the EOS R would have even been perfectly fine.



For the recording of amateur shows, the R would probably be better. I'd still have to hook up an external recorder (because of the annoying 30 minute artificial limit), but then I could record in 4k.

I'm sure I'll love the R6, and for many other aspects of my use case it'll be wonderful


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## dtaylor (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> 4K60 is not uncommon at all, uncropped full frame sure that's very uncommon but what good is it if it overheats when you try to use it? When you need 4K60 which is very common there is no mode that will not overheat, that was my point.



There's a good chance that an external recorder will solve this. Wait until someone has the chance to test it. If it does, then you have your FF no-crop 4k 60p platform.


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## Amy Worrall (Jul 15, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> There's a good chance that an external recorder will solve this. Wait until someone has the chance to test it. If it does, then you have your FF no-crop 4k 60p platform.



Fingers crossed!


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 15, 2020)

Amy Worrall said:


> Fingers crossed!


If you don't plan to do slow motion for the shows, 4K60 might be overkill. Unless you really like a 60FPS look. Otherwise you can save yourself the headache of larger file sizes by recording at 4K24 or 4K30.


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> You don't know what you're talking about here. A top speed run is one of the most stressful things you can do to a sports car due to the heat/stress encountered by the motor under sustained max rpm. And the few people who get to do it don't hold their car's top speed for 20m. You can't even get close to top speed on most race courses. Outside of sections of Germany's autobahn people generally only get to test their car's top speed if a club manages to get access to a closed freeway or an especially long runway for a day.
> 
> Drag racing is a quarter mile burst. Race courses have turns and your foot can be on the brake as much as the gas. Even police chases don't generally see someone hold the pedal to the floor for 20 straight minutes. And yes, even exotic sports cars will suffer thermal damage in a 20m flat out run, especially in warm weather.
> 
> ...



I'm going to have to disagree, I have been in the high performance car scene for over 20 years, top speed runs are prevented by many other factors mainly the fact you can't find a driver, track, or roadway that can safely handle it. You would need an absolutely impeccable track (like the salt flats) to do a top speed run and even then it probably wouldn't be for 20 min because you would probably still run out of track.

Also, Ford refuses warranty service on hard run mustangs because they spun out, trashed the transmission, or took other actions that were out of spec for the car. I did caveat my statement that if you stay within the operating specs of the vehicle you would still get warranty service.

My original statement was specifically that the car still would not overheat in that scenario, all other factors considered equal a modern car would not overheat just by driving it at its top speed, everything else might fall off but overheating would not be the problem. If you took a modern car and put it on a lift rack and put a fan in front of it to simulate the airflow that the car would get when driving it at top speed then put the gas pedal all the way to the floor for 20min while it is in drive and has a rotational drag equivalent to the drag the car would experience at top speed on a roadway guess what.....it would not overheat.


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## Amy Worrall (Jul 15, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> If you don't plan to do slow motion for the shows, 4K60 might be overkill. Unless you really like a 60FPS look. Otherwise you can save yourself the headache of larger file sizes by recording at 4K24 or 4K30.



It's 4k30 on the R6 that I want! That's marked as being susceptible to overheating in the Canon document. I don't plan to record shows at 4k60.


----------



## Hector1970 (Jul 15, 2020)

If you are looking for a camera that shoots 8k and doesn't overheat don't buy the R5. Canon is being very upfront about it. It's saying you can do a decent amount of recording before it overheats. If you are shooting 8K in 95C buy something more suitable. This is a do it all camera so it has to have compromises especially with its size. I personally don't get the focus on video as I see alot of great photos taken with high end cameras but very little worthwhile video. Most video seems to be series of very short video edited together so I'd say the R5 would be fine for most things. 8K would be overkill for things like interviews which would of longer duration. Most people don't have 4K televisions not to mind 8k. I think a focus on better content rather than better video quality would be more worthwhile and alot cheaper.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> 4K60 is not uncommon at all, uncropped full frame sure that's very uncommon but what good is it if it overheats when you try to use it?


As far as I know, in _my_ use cases R5 won't overheat. What am I doing wrong?



herein2020 said:


> When you need 4K60 which is very common there is no mode that will not overheat, that was my point.


If you know that you need a camera that won't overheat in 4K60 no matter what, why won't you take a camera that doesn't?

Just take notice that Canon doesn't yet produce a _5D-series_ camera with 4K60 for your use cases, and move on.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 15, 2020)

Amy Worrall said:


> It's 4k30 on the R6 that I want! That's marked as being susceptible to overheating in the Canon document. I don't plan to record shows at 4k60.


 
As far as the document goes, it mentions the oversampled 4K having the limitation. I do not see anything on the non-oversampled 4K, so that might be a mode that doesn't have heat limitations. Nevertheless, if you need long uninterrupted takes, the recorder is the way to go. There are not a lot of manufacturers that don't have the internal 29 minute limit. I think Panasonic is the only one at the moment.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Kit. said:


> As far as I know, in _my_ use cases R5 won't overheat. What am I doing wrong?
> 
> 
> If you know that you need a camera that won't overheat in 4K60 no matter what, why won't you take a camera that doesn't?
> ...



I actually already have two cameras that will shoot unlimited 4K60 for hours and will not overheat. My point all along is that people make it seem like it is completely unreasonable to expect a product with advertised features to be able to provide those features without thermal shutdown concerns just because it has the Canon logo on it.

I love Canon products, I really do, I think the R5 and R6 are fantastic cameras, I do not think they will fit my use case scenarios due to their limitations and my biggest concerns aren't even thermal. That's just my opinion and stating that on a Canon forum is perfectly acceptable. I know its not a popular opinion on a Canon forum, and I'm ok with that, but when people come back with a counter argument or state flat out wrong information like "it will only overheat if you try to record 20min of 8K" or "its perfectly acceptable to release a camera that can go into thermal shutdown when using its features" then yea I feel the urge to point out that that doesn't align with people's expectations for pretty much any other product.


----------



## Jordan23 (Jul 15, 2020)

jayphotoworks said:


> Where was this posted or shared? It was originally rumored that neither the R5 or R6 can do dual card recording.





jayphotoworks said:


> Where was this posted or shared? It was originally rumored that neither the R5 or R6 can do dual card recording.


Check out number 77:


https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/products/eos/product-1/pdfs/EOS-R5-improvements-part-1.pdf


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 15, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> No, _I_ pointed that out.
> 
> He tried to pretend that Canon never said it, as it rather stomps on the unsupportable point he was trying to make.



No, he provided the link. Stop acting so childish. Plus, your point is not taken.


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I'm going to have to disagree, I have been in the high performance car scene for over 20 years, top speed runs are prevented by many other factors mainly the fact you can't find a driver, track, or roadway that can safely handle it.



What are you talking about? There are YouTube videos of people testing sports cars to their top speeds for crying out loud. I expressed that it is rare for lack of sufficient road length, and that is true, but it does happen. Clubs sometimes get access to closed freeways or really long runways. And yes, there are sections of the Autobahn where you can test most car's max speed.

There are also some examples of illegally testing and reaching a car's max speed on lengths of road which will support it, but naturally I would never condone trying such a thing.



> You would need an absolutely impeccable track (like the salt flats) to do a top speed run



You're destroying your claim to 'be in the high performance car scene' here. Salt flats are large and flat, but actually present more safety challenges than a nice stretch of modern freeway or runway. The big one being less traction. Salt flats are infamous for speed runs, but cars are also modded for those runs.



> and even then it probably wouldn't be for 20 min because you would probably still run out of track.



That was my point. Much shorter top speed runs are thermally stressful on motors and run the risk of damage. 20m...if we could setup a track to test cars at 20m max rpm/speed...would damage a lot of cars. Yet you claimed it's possible to run a car pedal to the metal, all day, every day until warranty expiration yet suffer no damage and have no warranty issues if you do. That's nonsense even with a rev limited vehicle.



> Also, Ford refuses warranty service on hard run mustangs because they spun out, trashed the transmission, or took other actions that were out of spec for the car.



Ford will refuse warranty service on a Mustang or any car that you overheated through racing. They're tracking enough information in the ECU to determine that.



> I did caveat my statement that if you stay within the operating specs of the vehicle you would still get warranty service.



Pedal to the metal max rpm for extended periods is not within the operating specs of any commercially available car or truck.



> If you took a modern car and put it on a lift rack and put a fan in front of it to simulate the airflow that the car would get when driving it at top speed then put the gas pedal all the way to the floor for 20min while it is in drive and has a rotational drag equivalent to the drag the car would experience at top speed on a roadway guess what.....it would not overheat.



Whether a car will actually get so hot as to blow something and fail mid run...on pavement or in a test with a fan...depends entirely on ambient air temperature. But even at low temperatures the motor will run temps above normal and there will be excessive wear and potential damage. At high temps...kiss it goodbye. And yes, for most cars the ECU will record enough info for the manufacturer to void the warranty. But if you think a manufacturer is going to honor a warranty on a car you've run pedal to the metal for days...go right ahead and test that theory. Just not with my car


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 15, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> As Bokeh said, *sounds like you want *an external recording device. The money you'll spend on a capable CFExpress card for 4k60 using an ALL-I codec will be at least $300 for a 256MB card. To be safe, you'll want to buy the $600 512MB card. Wanna record for in 4k60 for 90mins+ with room to spare? Pup out $1500 for the 1TB CFExpress card.
> 
> THEN, have fun editing 4k60 in that very robust yet unfortunately clunky codec. You'll be sending that through Media Encoder and letting your computer run over night to put it into ProResHQ so you can manipulate it without having any constant stutter in playback.
> 
> ...



No, that's not at all what I want.
If you read my post again, I said
I want to know the exact amount of time in minutes.


----------



## Jordan23 (Jul 15, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> There's a good chance that an external recorder will solve this. Wait until someone has the chance to test it. If it does, then you have your FF no-crop 4k 60p platform.


Canon lists what videoformats that can be put through hdmi here, 101-103:


https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/products/eos/product-1/pdfs/EOS-R5-improvements-part-1.pdf


Apperantly only Hdr-videos are listed as output via hdmi.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I actually already have two cameras that will shoot unlimited 4K60 for hours and will not overheat.


I know. Although, in your described conditions(*), I wouldn't be so sure about GH5. Its autofocus may also be not up to the task.



herein2020 said:


> My point all along is that people make it seem like it is completely unreasonable to expect a product with advertised features to be able to provide those features without thermal shutdown concerns just because it has the Canon logo on it.


My point is that if we are talking about _R5 as a product of engineering_, it's completely unreasonable to expect Canon's first attempt at mirrorless 5D-series camera to produce unlimited 8K, and quite reasonable to not expect it to produce unlimited 4K60.

If we are talking about Canon's misrepresentation of this product in its press releases _as a product of marketing_, then I can agree with you.



herein2020 said:


> I know its not a popular opinion on a Canon forum, and I'm ok with that, but when people come back with a counter argument or state flat out wrong information like "it will only overheat if you try to record 20min of 8K" or "its perfectly acceptable to release a camera that can go into thermal shutdown when using its features" then yea I feel the urge to point out that that doesn't align with people's expectations for pretty much any other product.


Except that it's not "pretty much any other product". It's a 45Mpixel FF stills camera with DPAF, AI AF, 12/20 fps shutter - and some video functionality based on this stills functionality and complementing it.

*) Edit: sorry, it wasn't yours. It was* Baron_Karza's.*


----------



## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

Jordan23 said:


> Canon lists what videoformats that can be put through hdmi here, 101-103:
> 
> 
> https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/products/eos/product-1/pdfs/EOS-R5-improvements-part-1.pdf
> ...


Apparently only HDR-video are listed _as improvements_, though.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> What are you talking about? There are YouTube videos of people testing sports cars to their top speeds for crying out loud. I expressed that it is rare for lack of sufficient road length, and that is true, but it does happen. Clubs sometimes get access to closed freeways or really long runways. And yes, there are sections of the Autobahn where you can test most car's max speed.
> 
> There are also some examples of illegally testing and reaching a car's max speed on lengths of road which will support it, but naturally I would never condone trying such a thing.
> 
> ...



I said safely test a car's top speed...street racing on YouTube is not even close to doing anything safely. My salt flat example was the fact that there is one place where you could actually safely test a car's top speed and that's where top speed runs are usually safely tested by the experts who do those sorts of things. Sure they are doing it with modded vehicles due to traction issues but it was simply an example of one of the few places in the world where it can be safely done, just like it could be safely done on a rack with simulated street conditions.

Ford and I am sure every other car maker has exceptions in their warranties stating that racing will void their warranty...once again racing is outside the acceptable use for their cars and they state that clearly.

Show me anywhere in any car warranty that states if you drive the car at top speed every single day until the warranty runs out that if it overheats they will not cover it. You keep referring to racing which is clearly a use of a car that is not covered by the warranty.

To be honest with you I actually would like to test my theory and see what would happen if the engine did blow. Would they want to cover it? Definitely not, do I think I could get it covered under the Magnuson-Moss Act, yes I do, is it even possible to safely find out, probably not. 

We are very much veering off of the topic of the R5 and R6.... so I'll put out a much simpler challenge.....show me a single common household product in anyone's house on this forum that will overheat if that owner uses the features that the product advertises it can support and is a use that is within the acceptable use for that product.


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> No, that's not at all what I want.
> If you read my post again, I said
> I want to know the exact amount of time in minutes.


You provided your use case. 4K60 shooting surfers. Both PureClassA and I thought a good solution is to use an external recorder. Sorry, if providing a workable solution is not what you wanted.

Not sure if you are just trying to make a point to bash the camera or not, but I don't see how you expect to get an answer to that specific question on a Canon Rumors forum.

As mentioned in my edit, the camera will provide you an estimated run time based on whatever shooting scenario you are in.


----------



## yeahright (Jul 15, 2020)

Many of the disappointed comments here make me critically reflect my own disappointment over the omission of GPS from the R5 because my 5D4 has it, even though I have not used this feature even once so far, and even though I am not even planning on buying the R5 anyway, because my current camera works just fine. Complaints about an unpurchased product at a level that sound like people feel personally insulted by the manufacturer because of the omission or perceived inadequacy of certain features are completely irrational.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 15, 2020)

Just got a call from my pre-order camera shop asking for my CPS #.

It seems that Canon wants to get the Camera in the hands of their CPS Members first. My Camera shop says they are expecting only 40-50% of pre-orders will be filled on the first shipment. They have 33 Pre-orders and I am #16 so I am hoping it is 50% if I do not get the CPS bump.

Good news for Canon as it appears they have a sales hit on their hands, bad new for all of us as the wait might be longer than end of July(We all knew it was coming but hoped it was not true.)

I am sure Canon is ramping up production as we speak but moving the components providers to exceed the agreed order quickly can be tricky when they world is not grip with an pandemic so in these times it will be interesting to see how fast they can fill orders.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> We are very much veering off of the topic of the R5 and R6.... so I'll put out a much simpler challenge.....show me a single common household product in anyone's house on this forum that will overheat if that owner uses the features that the product advertises it can support and is a use that is within the acceptable use for that product.


Any kind of consumer grade electrical product that works through applying a rotational force and can do it indefinitely long as far as a button is pressed or a switch is turned on. Mixers, grinders, drills, you name it.

Also, computer CPUs and SSDs, while they normally do not stop working during "normal" overheating, can switch into a less performing (and less power consuming) mode.


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## wockawocka (Jul 15, 2020)

Does the thermal limit apply if writing to an external recorder?


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## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Any kind of consumer grade electrical product that works through applying a rotational force and can do it indefinitely long as far as a button is pressed or a switch is turned on. Mixers, grinders, drills, you name it.
> 
> Also, computer CPUs and SSDs, while they normally do not stop working during "normal" overheating, can switch into a less performing (and less power consuming) mode.



I completely like that response and I agree 100% that drills, grinders, etc. can definitely overheat during normal use. Computers will not overheat as long as the ambient temps are within the manufacturers acceptable use (the fans just ramp up) but I'm not going to nitpick, I will readily admit you are correct; there are common household items that will overheat during normal use and people have come to accept that fact; mind you for $4 drill bits, not so much for $4000 camera gear, but nonetheless those were great examples.

So yea, I'm going to sit back and see how bad the overheating is during real world use and hope that they add backup video recording to the R6.


----------



## herein2020 (Jul 15, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> Does the thermal limit apply if writing to an external recorder?



I think that's a great question and if I were you I'd email Canon support and ask them. Everyone assumes an external recorder will fix the issues (as do I) but I haven't seen Canon say that. Also, most of the time the HDMI port is more limited than internal recording so while you may be dodging the heat bullet you may still have unacceptable limitations. Personally I hate external recorders and find them impractical to lug around, keep charged, etc. but many people use them with great success.

If the heat buildup is due to the sensor vs the compression an external recorder may not fix the issue.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 15, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?


R5, 95°F no shade, 4K60 has recording time of 19min 37sec before thermal safety shutdown.
Sony A7sIII 95°F no shade, 4K60 has recording time of 21min 18sec before thermal safety shutdown.

If you need to record over 25mins of 4K60 in 95°F heat you need an actively cooled video camera, Canon, Sony, etc all make models capable of those specs but nobody makes a stills orientated MILC capable of performing what you need. Whatever you get I’d suggest a $5 umbrella to help you and your camera out.


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I said safely test a car's top speed...street racing on YouTube is not even close to doing anything safely. My salt flat example was the fact that there is one place where you could actually safely test a car's top speed and that's where top speed runs are usually safely tested by the experts who do those sorts of things.



I'm not talking about 'street racing.' And I would pick a modern freeway or runway over a salt flat any day for a legal and closed off speed run. It would absolutely be safer, and 'safe enough' for a car in proper condition with a driver who is not an idiot. That's not to say you're going to live if a tire or suspension piece fails at 200 mph in your new Corvette or Porsche. But the odds of that happening are very low, and all you have to do is maintain a straight line until you've reached your top speed and can say you did it.



> Show me anywhere in any car warranty that states if you drive the car at top speed every single day until the warranty runs out that if it overheats they will not cover it.



Warranty exceptions are not nearly so specific in their wording.



> You keep referring to racing which is clearly a use of a car that is not covered by the warranty.



No, I am explicitly telling you that a sustained, max rpm, max speed run will likely cause thermal damage, up to and potentially including blowing the motor mid-run. And that manufacturers will not honor their warranties if you do this. Which is an example of a thermal limit on a product in an entirely separate industry from Canon.

We live in a universe governed by thermodynamics whether we want to film unlimited FF 8k in a fan-less camera or not.



> To be honest with you I actually would like to test my theory and see what would happen if the engine did blow.



Like I said: just not with my car 



> We are very much veering off of the topic of the R5 and R6.... so I'll put out a much simpler challenge.....show me a single common household product in anyone's house on this forum that will overheat if that owner uses the features that the product advertises it can support and is a use that is within the acceptable use for that product.



Notebook computers and smart phones can and do overheat and go into thermal protection. It's less evident because the first stage is to throttle down the chipset as opposed to giving a warning and shutting down. And most users performing most tasks aren't aware enough to recognize the down throttle. But they will also go into a warning/shutdown mode if throttling isn't sufficient given the task load and ambient temperatures. And there have been PLENTY of complaints about this over the years from people who push their computers.

If you think the complaining about Canon's thermal limits are bad now, just wait for the angry YT videos that come when millennial influencers try to edit 8k footage on their 13" MacBook Pros. APPLE IS *******.


----------



## Besisika (Jul 15, 2020)

Jordan23 said:


> Check out number 77:
> 
> 
> https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/products/eos/product-1/pdfs/EOS-R5-improvements-part-1.pdf


Thanks for sharing the link. It gives a lot of info I didn't find anywhere else.


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## Kit. (Jul 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Computers will not overheat as long as the ambient temps are within the manufacturers acceptable use


NVMe SSDs will switch into reduced performance (thermal throttling) mode if you do full speed read or write on them for too long. For some types of workloads, it might be better to select SSDs based on their thermal throttling speed, not on their max speed.


----------



## gmon750 (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So are the Canon-Butt-Kissers appologizing for any flaws as not being an issues because All-Mighty-Canon-God is perfection.
> 
> Please, what is the point of these forums if we're restricted to only be able to write positive or write negative things about products. People have differences in opinions....I was only kidding in my above paragraph. I like to play devil's advocate to get a wide range of opinions to help with my purchasing decisions. But at the same time, need to make sure to separate fact from fiction.



Other cameras (including Sony) overheat when shooting 4K. This is no different, except it also does it at 8K. Has nothing to do with being in the Canon camp... it's haters focusing on Canon for a problem common to most all other cameras as well.


----------



## WriteLight (Jul 16, 2020)

Man, I've never been so happy to have an "ignore" function as I am on this thread.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 16, 2020)

WriteLight said:


> Man, I've never been so happy to have an "ignore" function as I am on this thread.


Amen


----------



## HenryL (Jul 16, 2020)

Booyahcasa22 said:


> I haven’t read through all the comments on this thread but did you all know that not all, or possibly any current, CFExpress cards work with 8K Raw? I was able to have hands on time today with a production unit and when I asked the Canon rep why 8K recording didn’t work he said that a lot of current CFExpress cards don’t work because the write speeds are actually much lower than what is stated. He could not recommend any current CFExpress card that would definitely work with 8K.


Not news, really. On the 1D MkIII specs, only ProGrade Cobalt series, SanDisk Extreme Pro (512GB only) and Lexar 128 & 256 cards support 5.5K raw. ProGrade's website indicates the Cobalt cards do support 8K raw.


----------



## reef58 (Jul 16, 2020)

Maybe it is not the camera for you? 



herein2020 said:


> So you have a production model in your hand, you've shot a couple hundred hours on it in direct sunlight on 100F days and you have statistical data to backup that statement...no of course not, so in other words your statement makes no sense at all and is made strictly from a "Canon walks on water and can do no wrong" viewpoint. I get this is a Canon forum but take off the blinders and realize at least briefly that maybe just maybe overheating just might be a real problem and without real world feedback all we have to go on is what Canon has already released which is nowhere near enough information to know how bad the situation is going to get in real world use.
> 
> Do you really think it is such a minor issue when Peter McKinnon a "Canon ambassador of light" still felt he had to mention it in an otherwise glowing review of all things Canon? What that probably means is he experienced it first hand and I'm pretty sure he was not shooting 20min of 8K raw video.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 16, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Not true now, not true ever.
> 
> Come on: with pretty much every camera series in existence, pixel count has increased (so smaller pixels) _and at the same time, noise performance has improved._




I guess I misunderstood this and other articles on the subject.


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 16, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> I guess I misunderstood this and other articles on the subject.



Forget the theorizing and compare RAW files from different pixel pitch cameras, of the same technological generation, at the same view size (not the same magnification in PS or LR, which results in greater enlargement for the higher resolution sensor). The noise is similar with the caveat that noise structure appears sharper on the higher density sensor.

The article's error is here: _"All pixels collect the same amount of noise, but larger pixels collect more of the “good” data than smaller pixels." _

This statement is true, but it ignores that with gapless microlenses the total amount of 'good data' will be the same for two sensors of the same size regardless of pixel size.

Other than that the article also underestimates the ideal resolution required for various view sizes, but that's a separate issue.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 16, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Bigger pixels = better light gathering. Not surprised - it’s reflected in the ISO ratings.


And that is just not true. But have at it.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 16, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> I guess I misunderstood this and other articles on the subject.


That is from 2013 and is comically out of date. Sensor tech particularly space efficiency and edgeless micro lenses overcame early sensor per pixel inefficiencies.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jul 16, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Forget the theorizing and compare RAW files from different pixel pitch cameras, of the same technological generation, at the same view size (not the same magnification in PS or LR, which results in greater enlargement for the higher resolution sensor). The noise is similar with the caveat that noise structure appears sharper on the higher density sensor.
> 
> The article's error is here: _"All pixels collect the same amount of noise, but larger pixels collect more of the “good” data than smaller pixels." _
> 
> ...



I don't really believe that's true. Maybe in theory, yes, but in reality you are dealing with smaller photo diodes, smaller transistors, more prone to noise or false data.


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## BakaBokeh (Jul 16, 2020)

Worrying about the size of other peoples pixels now?

It's not the size of the pixel that matters, its how you use it.


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## Inspired (Jul 16, 2020)

So since 4k 30 does not have the overheating problem can we get unlimited recording time?


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## Bert63 (Jul 16, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> And that is just not true. But have at it.



Thanks for the correction. The sarcasm isn't necessary. I had no malice or evil intent.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 16, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Thanks for the correction. The sarcasm isn't necessary. I had no malice or evil intent.


I think some of us are little touchy, I learned something new from the links as well as the correction. 

That is a good day in my books


----------



## dcm (Jul 16, 2020)

Inspired said:


> So since 4k 30 does not have the overheating problem can we get unlimited recording time?



Not unless you want to pay a lot more. Some parts of the world tax video cameras much more than stills cameras. 30 minutes is the dividing line.









BL Blog | Online Camera Gear Rental, News, Tutorials


The BL Blog provides tips, tutorials, camera gear reviews, and inspirational articles to help you realize your creative vision. Rent cinema and photography gear online and have everything sent to your home or directly on set at borrowlenses.com.



www.borrowlenses.com


----------



## HarryFilm (Jul 16, 2020)

pmjm said:


> Still unaddressed: Can you mitigate some of these heat concerns, at least at 4K60 and below, by using an external recorder? That way at least you're offloading the h.265 compression to an external unit.




You buy a cheap USB powered aluminum or copper CPU heat sink plus fan and use double sided THERMAL TAPE (i.e. a proper thermal transfer adhesive tape!) and stick it to the left side of the R5/r6 camera.

In the old days of shooting with the Sony A7s2 camera which was KNOWN to always overheat, we also wrapped the camera in those blue-coloured flexible cooling gel packs that you buy at your local dollar store. After taking those gel packs out of a cooler filled with ice or out of a local refrigerator, we wrapped/taped them around the camera body itself so we could run the Sony A7s2 all day on multiple gel packs (about $2.00 per gel pack or $25 US total for multiple packs).

The same simple solution should work fine for the Canon R5 and R6 cameras too!

If you want to get fancy, just use a CPU cooling block and fan stuck to the hottest part of the camera and you should be fine for the whole day. A camera cage can ALSO hold one or more small and quiet USB powered fans to blow cool air onto the camera itself!

AND if you REALLY want to get fancy, do what Linus Tech Tips (LTT) did with their RED camera by using a custom computer-oriented liquid cooling system to cool the electronics. A liquid cooling system using silicone oil or mineral oil or other thermal fluid SHOULD work just fine on the Canon R5/R6 !!!

SHOULD we have to do this for ANY new camer system? No! No! and Double Hell NO!

BUT for now, as a CHEAP SOLUTION use multiple flexible blue gel packs kept in a freezer or cooler and wrap it around the camera within a simple cloth (i.e. the gel pack des NOT go right directly on the camera body but rather has a small thin cloth in-between to transfer heat at a medium rate!)

Also some aluminum or copper computer CPU heat sinks stuck to the hottest part of the cameras using double-sided sticky THERMAL TRANSFER tape should ALSO work!

V


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## PureClassA (Jul 16, 2020)

Amy Worrall said:


> No reason, apart from they're competing with cellphones these days. My phone can record until its storage is full, in 4k.
> 
> I'm not a professional, but I am buying my first proper camera (I went with the R6) right now. A cine camera definitely wasn't on the cards — I want a camera to learn still photography, make youtube videos, and sometimes record shows for amateur theatre. While I do wish the R6 had a 4k mode that didn't overheat (like the R5 does), the 30 minute limit is actually more annoying to me, because my much cheaper multi-purpose device (cellphone) can do it.
> 
> I'll probably buy an external recorder. But I feel annoyed that I have to


Welcome to the world of photography in that case! Hope you stay engaged in here and we can help you s time goes on!!

Few thoughts based your statement:

Congrats on choosing the R6. It will be an absolutely excellent camera for you and ME! I have one on pre-order. If your goal is to learn photography, the R6 is the best choice you could have made to do that. You will be very, very happy. The EOS Cinema line would be overkill and would not meet your goals.

If recording YouTube videos and basic live events is what you want, the R6 is flawlessly perfect. The overheating stories are a non-issue for you.

You will be recording in 1080p24 or 1080p30 for Youtube. Even in 4K24 or 4K30, you'll be just fine. The camera will NOT overheat in these normal, everyday recording modes of standard speeds/framerates.

Ignore the "overheating" stuff. None of it applies in real world routine situations. Only in very specific, comparably very rare instances.

If streaming/recording to YouTube, you'll probably want to invest in a good HDMI video capture device anyway. They run about $100. This will let you direct output clean HDMI to the device to record or live stream straight into your computer. This is the case with ANY camera.

Should you wish to record internally in camera, you may! But if you will do YouTube regularly, I would advise you get the capture card. The $100 is well worth it to make your life a whole lot easier.

For theater, you obviously need more than 30 mins uninterrupted. Yes, buy an external recorder or buy a dedicated Canon video camera. You don't need Cinema lines for this. 

Phones dont have the same licensing requirements as dedicated cameras. Their sensors are also microscopic compared to full frame 35mm size like the R6. There is zero comparison in image quality and versatility. You're stepping up to a real camera. It's not an all-in-one entry level machine. 

On the flip side, the R6 will have aa super sophisticated IBIS system. A $100,000 ARRI Hollywood camera does not have that. You have to strap it to a $10,000 body suit gimbal. So the phone to R6 comparison doesn't work when put into the right perspective.

Personally I've never shot a 30 minute video on my phone. They look awful when you play them back on a screen bigger than a few inches anyway. I can't say how long they go before overheating.

Anyhow, thanks for chiming in! Hope we can help out!!!! Best wishes to you in your new endeavor !! Canon Rumors forum should be a place where folks like you starting out can come and get help from us more seasoned guys and girls. Hope this helped!!


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 16, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> I don't really believe that's true.



Then you haven't compared the files.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 16, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> I don't really believe that's true. Maybe in theory, yes, but in reality you are dealing with smaller photo diodes, smaller transistors, more prone to noise or false data.


I did it myself back for the 1DS MkIII and 7D and posted here extensively. For same generation sensors the meme of pixel density = noise has been debunked by those who actually compare them for years, just take a few seconds and download some RAW files from DPReview to -rove it to yourself. If you are too lazy to do that just look at their studio comparison tool and make sure you click the ’print’ option. And if you do that remember they are all processed with ‘standard’ Adobe settings not image optimal settings, any differences can be overcome with optimal processing.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 16, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Thanks for the correction. The sarcasm isn't necessary. I had no malice or evil intent.


No sarcasm sent. It is just staggering how long these fallacies perpetuate especially when they are so easily and regularly disproven. Compare that to the number of people with opinions on an as yet unreleased cameras thermal performance!


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 16, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Maybe Canon should just make a version of R5 with a bit bigger body, cooling fan and unlimited recording to please everyone.


They already do, it’s a called a C500 MkII and costs $15,999.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 16, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> For same generation sensors the meme of pixel density = noise has been debunked by those who actually compare them for years, just take a few seconds and download some RAW files from DPReview to -rove it to yourself.



The very important parameter is the well capacity. In order to use all 14 bits, each pixel should be able to keep 16384 electrons, preferably more (as they cut some off the floor). Within that capacity, say 20000 electrons in smaller pixels don't make a big difference against say 30000 electrons in larger pixels. 30000 is a bit more granular than 20000 but not drastically (both ranges will be squeezed into 14-bit and 16384 values).
I don't know figures of well capacities of the current canon sensors, but I guess both R6 and R5 will be above 16384 or close, that's why I really hope, considering all advancements in microlenses, the R5 should be on par with the R6 in terms of the DR, and the R6 must be the same as 1DXIII.

Btw found this interesting article about DxOMark retracting their 1DXIII sensor review https://petapixel.com/2020/07/09/dxomark-admits-they-screwed-up-their-canon-1d-x-mark-iii-review/
First it shows how biased DxO is, second it's yet another confirmation R6 will be very good in terms of the DR (photonstophotos already shows that), also Canon promised a 1-stop improvement againtst the R which is quite exciting.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

BakaBokeh said:


> You provided your use case. 4K60 shooting surfers. Both PureClassA and I thought a good solution is to use an external recorder. Sorry, if providing a workable solution is not what you wanted.
> 
> Not sure if you are just trying to make a point to bash the camera or not, but I don't see how you expect to get an answer to that specific question on a Canon Rumors forum.
> 
> As mentioned in my edit, the camera will provide you an estimated run time based on whatever shooting scenario you are in.



So you cannot answer my question. You do not know and neither does anyone else. This camera is not predictable and not reliable.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> R5, 95°F no shade, 4K60 has recording time of 19min 37sec before thermal safety shutdown.
> Sony A7sIII 95°F no shade, 4K60 has recording time of 21min 18sec before thermal safety shutdown.
> 
> If you need to record over 25mins of 4K60 in 95°F heat *you need an actively cooled video camera*, Canon, Sony, etc all make models capable of those specs but nobody makes a stills orientated MILC capable of performing what you need. Whatever you get I’d suggest a $5 umbrella to help you and your camera out.



So just taking a WILD guess. Highly unreliable. Didn't even try to answer my other question - because nobody knows the answers to that either. Instead rambles on about Sony for some reason and an umbrella. I don't need an actively cooled video camera, I just want to know the answers to my questions.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

gmon750 said:


> Other cameras (including Sony) overheat when shooting 4K. This is no different, except it also does it at 8K. Has nothing to do with being in the Canon camp... it's haters focusing on Canon for a problem common to most all other cameras as well.


Just because Sony had overheating cameras for a number of generations doesn't mean it's OK. Canon never did and always said that they wouldn't come out with unreliable features but now suddenly they do. Canon "haters"??? I love my Canon cameras, but come on now. Only a fanboy would would think that every single thing about every single Canon camera is to be loved. There is likely no perfect camera for most people. It's ok to love your favorite came and still hate some things about it. Just because I hate the overheating at 4k doesn't mean I hate Canon.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So you cannot answer my question. You do not know and neither does anyone else. This camera is not predictable and not reliable.


Why? Just shoot them in 4K30. Or get a proper video camera if you want to record hours of slo-mo.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Why? Just shoot them in 4K30. Or get a proper video camera if you want to record hours of slo-mo.


Because I want to know.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Which hybrid, fan-less, FF camera can record 4k 60p no-crop video in 95F, noon sun weather without overheating?


Dude, I'm just asking how long it will record. I'm not comparing it with other cameras.


----------



## .jan (Jul 16, 2020)

Gazwas said:


> But you've got to factor in the cumulative effect of heat build up over a period of time, not just one take.
> 
> I've pre-ordered however, I find the heat issues a very dissapointing with all these limittions.


Yeah I absolutely get you. Personally I find it very disappointing that they offer any video capability at all actually. All that precious R&D money should go into better DR and battery life.
Seems like we'll both have to live with the (I assume rather capable) compromise we're being offered here.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Because I want to know.


Then test it in advance.

If you are unwilling to test it, just don't rely on use of that mode. Use another mode or bring a proper video camera.


----------



## drama (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Dude, I'm just asking how long it will record. I'm not comparing it with other cameras.


No, you're just bashing everyone making educating guesses based on details provided by the manufacturer, and saying that none of that is good enough, while being rude to everyone as well as suggesting that isn't good enough.

In which case, wait for real world reviews. Except you're likely not in the market to buy a new camera. No-one with this level of antagonism and entitlement likely is. And that's _fine._ Not everyone is. But maybe stop prolonging a pointless internet fight to make the point that the camera you don't want isn't good enough - because the bottom line is that you don't know either. Wait for reviews, and be nice in the meantime.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Why is is that dim trolls like you always equate a simple Real World understanding that nothing is life is perfect, with being a "Canon butt kisser"?
> 
> Are you really that comprehension-impaired?



I wrote that I was kidding when I wrote "Canon butt kissers". It was in response to someones remark about "trolls and haters", sort of like your response, but worse in that you are directly calling someone (me) names now - very immature and shows lack of intelligence.

I know nothing in life is perfect. Why can't you accept that not everyone is going to be happy with certain imperfections. Especially unreliable/unpredictable ones. If they make a big enough stink about it, hopefully Canon will do something about it. another thing they can do is not buy their products. I have a right to voice my opinion.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So just taking a WILD guess. Highly unreliable. Didn't even try to answer my other question - because nobody knows the answers to that either. Instead rambles on about Sony for some reason and an umbrella. I don't need an actively cooled video camera, I just want to know the answers to my questions.


No. not a wild guess, I am well positioned but obviously can't divulge the way I get this data as there are no non pre production model R5's out there and Sony are keeping the A7sIII under very tight wraps for a while yet. 

So either take my answer, realize that nobody can give you a better one (including Canon because they haven't tried it where you want to under the same conditions you would use it) or accept that to film 4K60 for 30 minutes is going to require a video camera.

The cool down and restart question is a bit more complicated and is a non linear sliding scale, the faster you restart it the less runtime you will get so unless you give me your expected down time or the expected follow on run time it is difficult to answer exactly as you keep asking. But here is a range I have garnered from my personal extended R5 use:-
1: Leave for 3 minutes you get a further 5:28
2: Leave for 5 minutes you get a further 8:57
3: Leave powered off completely for 20 minutes you get a full record time again.

I am deadly serious about the umbrella, in 95º heat you might come over all funny after 25/30 minutes...


----------



## Fanous (Jul 16, 2020)

I am a happy person, want the R5 for photography only. I never made a video longer than 5 minutes. So I can afford 8k. The ideal camera for me.


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## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Then test it in advance.
> 
> If you are unwilling to test it, just don't rely on use of that mode. Use another mode or bring a proper video camera.



I don't have one to test.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> This camera is not predictable and not reliable.



So don't buy it. When you do find a camera that will shoot 4K60 for 25 minutes in 95º temperatures without overheating please tell us what it is. Thanks.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

drama said:


> No, you're just bashing everyone making educating guesses based on details provided by the manufacturer, and saying that none of that is good enough, while being rude to everyone as well as suggesting that isn't good enough.
> 
> In which case, wait for real world reviews. Except you're likely not in the market to buy a new camera. No-one with this level of antagonism and entitlement likely is. And that's _fine._ Not everyone is. But maybe stop prolonging a pointless internet fight to make the point that the camera you don't want isn't good enough - because the bottom line is that you don't know either. Wait for reviews, and be nice in the meantime.



I'm not being rude. I just want to know how long it will record. If I knew the answers I would not have asked the questions. If you or someone doesn't know that answer that is fine too. Just say you don't know if you plan to answer. You're very judgmental. I'm not fighting. I think it's great that Canon finally has IBIS and 4K no crop.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> So don't buy it. When you do find a camera that will shoot 4K60 for 25 minutes in 95º temperatures without overheating please tell us what it is. Thanks.


OK, I'll wait for someone to give me a correct answer. Thanks.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I don't have one to test.


If you don't have one to test, you don't have one to film your surfers.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 16, 2020)

Kit. said:


> If you don't have one to test, you don't have one to film your surfers.



You are so right - I don't have a camera that will over heat and shut down at any unpredictable time in above 73F, let alone outside in 95F. Even if I do what Canon suggests to do which is to bring a Fan with me...but they won't put it in their camera. They try to address the issue: "Magnesium alloy was used in the body to dissipate heat" - really??, that is nothing new. Putting a fan in a camera can be done so that it remains weather resistance - they just can't do it without a good ROI.


----------



## yeahright (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Because I want to know.


Nobody can give you this answer, and you know that of course. Just like nobody can give you a definite number of photos you can fit on your memory card, and just like nobody can give you an exact number for the noise power your sensor produces at a particular temperature. Because the answer is: it depends on so many factors that this is not known beforehand. But that doesn't equate to unpredictability.


----------



## zim (Jul 16, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No. not a wild guess, I am well positioned but obviously can't divulge the way I get this data as there are no non pre production model R5's out there and Sony are keeping the A7sIII under very tight wraps for a while yet.
> 
> So either take my answer, realize that nobody can give you a better one (including Canon because they haven't tried it where you want to under the same conditions you would use it) or accept that to film 4K60 for 30 minutes is going to require a video camera.
> 
> ...


As comprehensive an answer as possible at this current time thank you


----------



## drama (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> You are so right - I don't have a camera that will over heat and shut down at any unpredictable time in above 73F, let alone outside in 95F. Even if I do what Canon suggests to do which is to bring a Fan with me...but they won't put it in their camera. They try to address the issue: "Magnesium alloy was used in the body to dissipate heat" - really??, that is nothing new. Putting a fan in a camera can be done so that it remains weather resistance - they just can't do it without a good ROI.



Remind me again how you aren't trolling everyone and being needlessly negative?


----------



## 2 cents (Jul 16, 2020)

I'm a 100% photographer and 0% videographer. I don't even do sports. I just wish they can make this thing cheaper with no engineering bits for video at all.

I'm in the minority am I?


----------



## Kit. (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> You are so right - I don't have a camera that will over heat and shut down at any unpredictable time in above 73F, let alone outside in 95F.


So, what's you problem then, and how can we help you solve it?



Baron_Karza said:


> Even if I do what Canon suggests to do which is to bring a Fan with me...but they won't put it in their camera.


It's just not a camera designed for your needs. It's a camera designed for my needs. Canon cannot please everyone, so they decided to please me and not you.

Life is unfair, sorry about that.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> You are so right - I don't have a camera that will over heat and shut down at any unpredictable time in above 73F, let alone outside in 95F. Even if I do what Canon suggests to do which is to bring a Fan with me...but they won't put it in their camera. They try to address the issue: "Magnesium alloy was used in the body to dissipate heat" - really??, that is nothing new. Putting a fan in a camera can be done so that it remains weather resistance - they just can't do it without a good ROI.



Just don't buy it, it looks like the R5 will bring you lots of struggle and frustration, it already started even before you've bought it. Don't buy it.


----------



## navastronia (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> You are so right - I don't have a camera that will over heat and shut down at any unpredictable time in above 73F, let alone outside in 95F. Even if I do what Canon suggests to do which is to bring a Fan with me...but they won't put it in their camera. They try to address the issue: "Magnesium alloy was used in the body to dissipate heat" - really??, that is nothing new. Putting a fan in a camera can be done so that it remains weather resistance - they just can't do it without a good ROI.



Forgive me if I missed where people recommended you do this, but surely you can just buy something else that shoots 4K60p for an unlimited duration? The R5 doesn't work for you, so, uh . . . okay?


----------



## navastronia (Jul 16, 2020)

2 cents said:


> I'm a 100% photographer and 0% videographer. I don't even do sports. I just wish they can make this thing cheaper with no engineering bits for video at all.
> 
> I'm in the minority am I?



If I had a nickel for every time someone said this, I could actually afford an R5


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 16, 2020)

navastronia said:


> If I had a nickel for every time someone said this, I could actually afford an R5



...and a grip and have enough left over to get some RF primes.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jul 16, 2020)

Last few days i figured out why the camera industry is doing so bad.
It's because 90% of customers are shooting 2 hour long oversampled 4K videos and they have not much choice.
Canon is missing the point by adding all the stills and video features in cameras. They should just focus on video. 
On Sony forums people already decided the "R5 is a failure".

A7S3 and Panasonic S1H should sell in bigger quantities than Rebels.


----------



## Quackator (Jul 16, 2020)

I don't really understand how they thought that putting 
in a marketing burner like 8k while neglecting to get
the very basics right (Full HD with good frame rates)
would be enough.

Yes, it is likely one of the best stills cameras Canon has 
ever built. But then, my bunch of Canon DSLRs still performs 
okay, and all the thing where the R5 shines don't happen at 
the moment anyway. No nightlife, no concerts, no conventions 
and tradefairs, no big weddings....

The camera would sit in a case most of the time.

At the same time my business is shifting towards video 
for quite some time already. There's little use for high
resolutions in streaming, when most people watch on 
a mobile device or a regular Full HD screen, so I couldn't 
care less for 4k, let alone 8k.

Meanwhile, Blackmagic offers the URSA 4.6k G2 with 
EF mount, featuring up to 300 fps and global shutter at
roughly the same price as the R5. No overheating, no
showstopper. Looks like this time Grant Petty will get 
my money, and I might reconsider the R5 again when it 
goes below 3k EUR and/or events and stage shows are 
taken up again. Maybe next year, maybe the year after.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Jul 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> I don't really understand how they thought that putting
> in a marketing burner like 8k while neglecting to get
> the very basics right (Full HD with good frame rates)
> would be enough.
> ...



Not everything is about streaming and video.
Some people think that the world revolves around video. The R5 is a stills camera too and needs to have plenty of other features including high resolution sensor and IBIS. Without those overheating would not be a problem.
Besides, 4K 30p and full HD does not overheating.
And 8K is useful for some, just like 4K120p is very useful. Or everything is useless if shoots less than 1 hour? 
Looks like Black Magic is better for you and thats great.


----------



## Lt Colonel (Jul 16, 2020)

2 cents said:


> I'm a 100% photographer and 0% videographer. I don't even do sports. I just wish they can make this thing cheaper with no engineering bits for video at all.
> 
> I'm in the minority am I?


I'm with you. Just take out all the video stuff and give me the R5 stills camera.


----------



## koenkooi (Jul 16, 2020)

Lt Colonel said:


> I'm with you. Just take out all the video stuff and give me the R5 stills camera.



How are you going to focus without an EVF or LCD?


----------



## bbb34 (Jul 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Meanwhile, Blackmagic offers the URSA 4.6k G2 with
> EF mount, featuring up to 300 fps and global shutter at
> roughly the same price as the R5. No overheating, no
> showstopper.



What keeps you from buying it? Is it the weight? Or the size? Or the power consumption?

BTW, it's not quite the same price.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 16, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Here we go again with '8K is normal" and should work for infinity in a tiny body for a low price. It's not just acceptable but desirable to be irrational these days, apparently. No one is giving anyone a pass and blasting generalizations about people you disagree with is never a good start. Most of us are being reasonable about a new technology while you are expecting Canon to defy the laws of physics and to personally provide you with the impossible for whatever price you think is fair. You think they should have 'done what was needed' to stop overheating even if that would require compromising the entire rest of the camera, and for what? WHO, rationally, is shooting 8K or oversampled 4K60 indefinitely? Did you whine endlessly when Sony put out one of the first 4K MILC and it overheated? Did you call it a lemon moan about it? Are you on the AMD or Intel forums complaining that you should be able to overclock to 6 GHz or else their latest chip is a lemon? Like to see the cryogenic heatsink you think they should bolt onto their processor because overclocking to the end of what is possible is "normal operation".
> 
> Name one other camera that can shove out as much video data as the R5 will in a MILC and not overheat? There are none. The closest is the SH1, with its 6K, a fan, crappy focus, and a lot of engineering compromises and undesirable lens lineup, plus it costs more and lacks 8K. Heat is a basic problem for all electronics- lots of transistors reading out big sensors at fast rates means heat. Clearly you know nothing about the details of how anything works or why there is a limitation on the R5 and R6, albeit a pretty irrelevant one for most of us.
> 
> ...



Bravo!


----------



## HenryL (Jul 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> I don't really understand how they thought that putting
> in a marketing burner like 8k while neglecting to get
> the very basics right (Full HD with good frame rates)
> would be enough.
> ...


Sounds like the Ursa is a better option for you in any case. If you don't mind, I'm curious what is driving your business shift to video? Not asking related to anything about this camera or that...just interested from the business perspective?


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 16, 2020)

2 cents said:


> I'm a 100% photographer and 0% videographer. I don't even do sports. I just wish they can make this thing cheaper with no engineering bits for video at all.
> 
> I'm in the minority am I?




I’m paying a little more than $100 more for this camera today than I did for the 5D4 at launch..

It’s a bargain.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So you cannot answer my question. You do not know and neither does anyone else. This camera is not predictable and not reliable.



Those words... do not mean what you think. But now I'm pretty sure you're just trolling. People are wasting their time with patient replies.


----------



## degos (Jul 16, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> I’m paying a little more than $100 more for this camera today than I did for the 5D4 at launch..
> 
> It’s a bargain.



Why is paying more a bargain? In general the price of technology falls over time. Except for digital cameras apparently when we should just be content in paying more with each generation?


----------



## sanj (Jul 16, 2020)

degos said:


> Why is paying more a bargain? In general the price of technology falls over time. Except for digital cameras apparently when we should just be content in paying more with each generation?


It IS a bargain. It is practically the same price, but a much-advanced camera.


----------



## sanj (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> You are so right - I don't have a camera that will over heat and shut down at any unpredictable time in above 73F, let alone outside in 95F. Even if I do what Canon suggests to do which is to bring a Fan with me...but they won't put it in their camera. They try to address the issue: "Magnesium alloy was used in the body to dissipate heat" - really??, that is nothing new. Putting a fan in a camera can be done so that it remains weather resistance - they just can't do it without a good ROI.


Your posts continue to get -------. Many people will not face overheating or know how to work around the issue. And that is who the camera is designed for. Canon must keep the majority happy. The majority will want a weather-sealed, compact camera. And nothing is unpredictable as such - it is all mentioned. Get a grip on life.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 16, 2020)

degos said:


> Why is paying more a bargain? In general the price of technology falls over time. Except for digital cameras apparently when we should just be content in paying more with each generation?



Does it? The price of a given amount of memory or processing power drops over time, but devices get more capable, so the prices eithr stay the same or get more expensive. How much was the most expensive mainstream mobile phone ten years ago? Was it more than now? (Answer: no). Plus inflation of course. Once again, a complete ignorance of reality plus a dollop of entitlement.


----------



## sanj (Jul 16, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> And that is just not true. But have at it.


Private, I respect your opinion and research on this, but the guy does say R6 is better in low light. So I am confused, Again!


----------



## Nelu (Jul 16, 2020)

sanj said:


> Get a grip on life.


Or just simply "Get a grip. A cooling one. Stop overheating"
Thanks God for the "Ignore" button, I had enough of this comedian Baron!


----------



## twoheadedboy (Jul 16, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Those words... do not mean what you think. But now I'm pretty sure you're just trolling. People are wasting their time with patient replies.



Yeah, I just set him and the other dude to ignore.


----------



## Bert63 (Jul 16, 2020)

degos said:


> Why is paying more a bargain? In general the price of technology falls over time. Except for digital cameras apparently when we should just be content in paying more with each generation?




Maybe this will help:


----------



## Quackator (Jul 16, 2020)

HenryL said:


> Sounds like the Ursa is a better option for you in any case. If you don't mind, I'm curious what is driving your business shift to video? Not asking related to anything about this camera or that...just interested from the business perspective?



a) The demise of print and the rise of online advertising leads to more "moving" content.
b) No more trade fairs. Companies used to be there to be visible. Now they need to be online with streams, webinars, Q&As to remain visible. CEO with seven branch offices, can't go to all seven xmas parties. Records video address or streams live to one after the other or all at once. Another CEO unwilling to travel to a country where he has safety concerns. Video address via Youtube. Audience reaction via return channel blasted against the studio back wall with a beamer. Anything that enhances experience and replaces in person contacts.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 16, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> Yeah, I just set him and the other dude to ignore.



Same!


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 16, 2020)

sanj said:


> Private, I respect your opinion and research on this, but the guy does say R6 is better in low light. So I am confused, Again!


Ok there are several approaches you can take to answer this question satisfactorily for yourself, but first you have to quantify ‘better’. For me it means a viewable improvement in IQ at standard screen or output sizes, for Canon it might well mean measurable on an oscilloscope. If you agree with Canon then technically they might be right, if you agree with my definition then that small a difference, ‘better’, is irrelevant.

Then you can look at the numbers on Photonstophotos.com, compare any same generation sensors from any manufacturer in the last ten years that illustrate a meaningful correlation to fewer pixels equates better high iso performance, I haven’t managed to find a set. Personally I love the site and find my actual image performance aligns very closely with their numbers and comparisons, but it is a bit scientific for a visual medium and detached from what we are actually doing.

For a true visual reference DPReview has a huge library of downloadable RAW files. Just download a few you are interested in, or that can prove or disprove an idea you have. I have downloaded loads of RAW files from them exactly for instances like this. So once you have your files you have to define a realistic comparison, for me that is same sized output, it is after all pointless comparing different pixel density sensors at a percentage value, they have to be same size, or ‘print’ value as that is what we are actually interested in seeing. If you want to print to 20” x 30” then upsize the smaller resolution etc.

You could also listen to and believe anything you are told, but if you do that consider the source, and where they got the information from. The camera industry is like every other industry, it is trying to sell product. In their case it is a tech product that few people understand the physics of and unfortunate marketing or memes that were normally started to help alleviate confusion really end up causing more confusion down the line when they become accepted norms. Things like crop camera focal lengths, we know the focal length doesn’t change but for an uneducated market it is easier to name focal lengths incorrectly rather than explain the definition of field of view. Telephoto effect/compression is another, there is no such thing but it is easier to introduce that meme and then teach it rather than explain perspective.

Now back in the day before on sensor electronics were refined to the efficient and size level they have been, and back sensor illumination was a thing, and gapless micro lens technology that focused nearly 100% of the light hitting the sensor area down into the actual photosensors regardless of the electronics also on the face of that sensor there was some truth to the idea that fewer pixels on the same area had less noise. But those improvements have been made and the light gathering efficiency of the sensors regardless of the pixel density is so close to optimal there is practically no visual difference in noise in same sized output.

Certainly I haven’t seen a difference big enough to get different pixel density cameras to cover different uses and I personally compared the 1DS MkIII and the 7D a million years ago! Since that era I haven’t seen pixel density/noise differences that can’t be post processed away, and despite my many postings illustrating that point with copious links and actual images and downloadable files I have never had anybody refute it with actual images. And I am certain that will be the case with the R5 and R6.


----------



## Quackator (Jul 16, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> What keeps you from buying it?


Grant Petty staging a camera update stream in little under 30 min from now.
Unless he reveals something even more stunning like he often does, my 
order is out tomorrow.



bbb34 said:


> Is it the weight? Or the size? Or the power consumption?


Unless you film handheld, a full rig with a DSLR/DSLM and battery eliminator 
plus V-lock battery, field monitor and audio interface isn't any smaller at all.



bbb34 said:


> BTW, it's not quite the same price.


In the end it is. Many things that require accessories on a DSLR/DSLM 
come onboard the URSA out of the box.


----------



## HenryL (Jul 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> a) The demise of print and the rise of online advertising leads to more "moving" content.
> b) No more trade fairs. Companies used to be there to be visible. Now they need to be online with streams, webinars, Q&As to remain visible. CEO with seven branch offices, can't go to all seven xmas parties. Records video address or streams live to one after the other or all at once. Another CEO unwilling to travel to a country where he has safety concerns. Video address via Youtube. Audience reaction via return channel blasted against the studio back wall with a beamer. Anything that enhances experience and replaces in person contacts.


Thank you, I appreciate the candid response. I don't think I would have considered all of those situations.


----------



## Quackator (Jul 16, 2020)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Not everything is about streaming and video.



That's why I initially had the R5 on pre-order. Using a multitalent
would have been nice to have.



blackcoffee17 said:


> The R5 is a stills camera too and needs to have plenty of other
> features including high resolution sensor and IBIS. Without those
> overheating would not be a problem.



I remember well how I've been laughed at when I stated that IBIS 
would cause massive heat problems, and that I'd rather have 
the option to buy a camera without IBIS - even at a higher price.



blackcoffee17 said:


> Besides, 4K 30p and full HD does not overheating.


FHD also doesn't do more than 60fps, and neither 4k nor FHD offer RAW.
That's what I mean by don't worry about the icing if you fail at the cake
already.



blackcoffee17 said:


> Or everything is useless if shoots less than 1 hour?



I have yet to see a video production that requires less than 
20 minutes operating time from the A-roll camera.
Remember: Framing, checking exposure, color control is
all counting into operating time already.


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> I have yet to see a video production that requires less than
> 20 minutes operating time from the A-roll camera.



In fairness Canon has never positioned this camera as A-roll for a professional "video production." They would tell you to buy their cinema cameras and if you want the R5 for B footage...maybe a little 4k 120p or 8k, or maybe a crash scene...then it 'fits into the workflow' with excellent IQ and C-log.

The complaints about overheating are coming from people who really should know better and should be looking at dedicated cinema cameras, and from people who will never push an R5 to its limits but who like to complain in our click bait social media age. For the people these cameras (R5 and R6) are aimed at, the video specs are outstanding. It wasn't that long ago that vloggers were saying the 8k would be a time lapse feature because '8k can't be done at this size/price point yet.' Now these same vloggers are whining that it can 'only' do 8k for 20m?

If I remember correctly, the 5D mark II at launch had a file sized imposed limit of 12m for 1080p footage. And there were even potential overheating issues depending on ambient conditions. Yet several high end Hollywood productions used the 5D mark II, including the TV show House for at least one entire episode.

There will always be people who complain, and people who get it done regardless. I guarantee you that somewhere out there a team of enthusiasts is planning a short length 8k film that will be shot on the R5, just to say they did it. The 20m limit won't stop them any more then it will stop pros from slipping the R5 into their workflow where appropriate.


----------



## PureClassA (Jul 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> I have yet to see a video production that requires less than
> 20 minutes operating time from the A-roll camera.
> Remember: Framing, checking exposure, color control is
> all counting into operating time already.



You're not recording when you're pre-roll checks like framing, color, exposure, etc... Therefore the camera will run all day long, or until the battery runs out. It's the active RECORDING that generates the heat. We know this factually because it's the same case with existing cameras (DSLR and MILC) when in video mode. Simply monitoring the sensor via EVF or Liveview screen takes comparably little processing power. Review my earlier posts in this very forum regarding heat and power consumption and where the vast majority of that comes from.





__





Canon releases an official statement about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 heat concerns


If you have concerns, so wait with the pre order until an dependent reviewers have done their reviews. If you already have pre-ordered, too bad *Takes Steves advice* *Camera turns out to be a game changer with some caveats* *Waits six months to get your R5* Too bad. Haha




www.canonrumors.com


----------



## BakaBokeh (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So you cannot answer my question. You do not know and neither does anyone else. This camera is not predictable and not reliable.


I showed you that the Camera will tell you how long it will record. It will even take into account the temperature, what recording modes you use. That's far more useful than any other camera with heat management issues. It's worrisome that you need to check a forum to figure out how long the camera will run for specific use cases.


----------



## Richard Anthony (Jul 16, 2020)

Here you go here is a dedicated video camera for all those moaning about the R5 /R6 , OMG I cant believe it its $5000 and doesn't take photos lol 





__





Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro | Blackmagic Design


Blackmagic Design URSA Mini Pro, the digital film camera with professional broadcast camera features and controls.



www.blackmagicdesign.com


----------



## Besisika (Jul 16, 2020)

Richard Anthony said:


> Here you go here is a dedicated video camera for all those moaning about the R5 /R6 , OMG I cant believe it its $5000 and doesn't take photos lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, you just found the best tool for them. 12K in 60fps, 110 fps in 8K and up to 220 fps in 4K Super 16. It costs only 10K
I laughed when I saw it. That is slow motion beast. Gazelle and tigers won't be fast any longer.
Enough complains guys, instead of buying two R5 and swap them one with the other to avoid overheating, just buy this beast and you are set for good.


----------



## BurningPlatform (Jul 16, 2020)

I guess photographers are happy, as there really is no hardware added to these cameras for video. Also, software is essentially free, as the same components can be used in cinema line cameras. A minor integration excercise and measuring and documenting the limits for overheating and that is all. Just as with the 5D mk 2, video is a practically free bonus.


----------



## BurningPlatform (Jul 16, 2020)

I do wonder how you would get 4k or FHD RAW out of a 45 M pixel sensor, especially full frame. Which Bayer array pixels and lines would you skip, and would you call that RAW? Or would you be happy with a really heavy crop?

R6 probably could do 4k RAW with an almost manageable crop, though.



Quackator said:


> ...
> FHD also doesn't do more than 60fps, and neither 4k nor FHD offer RAW.
> That's what I mean by don't worry about the icing if you fail at the cake
> already.
> ...


----------



## Rule556 (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?



Then you’ll be using the wrong tool for the job. I feel like you’re being deliberately obtuse. Use one of the other non-limited 4K modes, or rent a video camera designed for the job you have.


----------



## bbb34 (Jul 16, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Unless he reveals something even more stunning like he often does, my
> order is out tomorrow.



Good for you!

I still don't see the point of comparing these two cameras. They are targeting very different use cases.


----------



## Rule556 (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> So are the Canon-Butt-Kissers appologizing for any flaws as not being an issues because All-Mighty-Canon-God is perfection.
> 
> Please, what is the point of these forums if we're restricted to only be able to write positive or write negative things about products. People have differences in opinions....I was only kidding in my above paragraph. I like to play devil's advocate to get a wide range of opinions to help with my purchasing decisions. But at the same time, need to make sure to separate fact from fiction.



Well, the fact is that this is a stills camera with hybrid video capability not available anywhere at this price range. It is not a dedicated video camera. You’re expecting things from this camera it was not designed to do.

Just because you had unrealistic expectations doesn’t mean the camera is a failure, or that the people for whom this camera is perfect for, are somehow wrong.

Call me a butt kisser all you want, but as an after sales manager for a high-end luxury product company, I see this attitude all the time. Devices are designed for a particular market segment, and they may not be right for you. This doesn’t mean the product fails, it means you wish it were different. That’s all.

My guess is that this will be a hugely successful product for Canon, and its release will be seen, in hindsight, as a watershed product in this industry.


----------



## Nyarlathotep (Jul 16, 2020)

We need a Drake Equation for people who cry about the R5 "overheating." Let's call it the YouTuber Circle Jerk Equation: 

N = # of people who should be legit concerned about the R5 heat buildup over time and are are not just shitting on Canon because Canon just handed their camera's specs their ass but should also probably just buy a C100/300/500

R(d): fraction of people who actually desire the R5 for something other than mainly still photography
R($): fraction of people who can afford the R5
R(vid): fraction of people who actually need to shoot video with a tiny, weather-sealed, mirrorless, 45 megapixel camera with no fan (because it's sealed)
R(uhd): fraction of people who need to shoot anything over 1080p
R(cf.uhd): fraction of people willing/able to purchase CFExpress cards large enough to shoot a shitload of consecutive minutes of 4k 120
R(cf.8k): fraction of people willing/able to purchase CFExpress cards large enough to shoot > 20 min of 8k 30p RAW (EIGHT KAY THIRTY P RAW!)
R(pro): fraction of people who shoot video professionally and require > 20 min of 8K 
R(pro.long): fraction of people who shoot video professionally and require > 20 min of 8K and need > 20 min RIGHT NOW with no cool down because that's their only 8k camera (lolx20)

N = R(d) * R($) * R(vid) * R(uhd) * R(cf.uhd) * R(cf.8k) * R(pro) * R(pro.long) = like, 20 people probably lol

OR...you could always go get the other tiny, weather-sealed, mirrorless, 45 megapixel, 12/20 fps, 8k RAW-recording camera from sony/pentax/fuji/nikon/olympu...errrrr nm. 

The more who jump off the sooner I get mine so carry on!


----------



## jayphotoworks (Jul 16, 2020)

How come nobody has talked about the 29:59 limit, RS or battery life yet.. Come on guys/gals.. I think the thermal talk is done to death already and we need to speed up and continuing discussing all of its other flaws so we can get through all of them before we get to start all over again and talk about Sony's long list of flaws on the 28th. I might start by arguing how 12MP might be enough for stills and everything else is overkill.... . What a busy month for shooters...


----------



## davidhfe (Jul 16, 2020)

BurningPlatform said:


> I do wonder how you would get 4k or FHD RAW out of a 45 M pixel sensor, especially full frame. Which Bayer array pixels and lines would you skip, and would you call that RAW? Or would you be happy with a really heavy crop?
> 
> R6 probably could do 4k RAW with an almost manageable crop, though.



I'd very much like to see an APS-C 5.1K RAW mode on the R5. Same for the R6, though I guess the UHS-II cards aren't fast enough?


----------



## Rule556 (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Dude, I'm just asking how long it will record. I'm not comparing it with other cameras.



"Get used to disappointment." - Dread Pirate Roberts


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 17, 2020)

White version. 

Canon has made some models in different colors. Having an option to purchase these new R models in white would help the heat issue (to some degree) when using outdoors under intense sunlight.


----------



## Steve Dmark2 (Jul 17, 2020)

The guys from DPReview have finished their review of the R6, here we go:









DPReview TV: Canon EOS R6 review


The EOS R6 promises to be the full frame mirrorless camera from Canon that many have been waiting for. Does it hit the mark? We put it through the wringer for both stills and video to find out. Filmed on a pre-production Canon EOS R5.




m.dpreview.com





Cheers


----------



## BurningPlatform (Jul 17, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> I'd very much like to see an APS-C 5.1K RAW mode on the R5. Same for the R6, though I guess the UHS-II cards aren't fast enough?



I agree, that would be nice. I hope they'll add it with a firmware update later.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 17, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Since that era I haven’t seen pixel density/noise differences that can’t be post processed away



You can't postprocess away the difference between sensors. If sensor A lags behind sensor B and you reduce noise on images from sensor A, you can also reduce noise on images from sensor B and it's ahead again. Postprocessing doesn't eliminate the difference and doesn't improve sensor performance.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 17, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> You can't postprocess away the difference between sensors.


Sometimes you cannot, sometimes you can.

You can postprocess away the difference between a 8K sensor and a 4K sensor if what you want as the end result is 4K. But not if what you want is 8K.



Quarkcharmed said:


> If sensor A lags behind sensor B and you reduce noise on images from sensor A, you can also reduce noise on images from sensor B and it's ahead again. Postprocessing doesn't eliminate the difference and doesn't improve sensor performance.


If you apply the same postprocessing to your 4K sensor, you will end up with FHD, which might be not what you wanted.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jul 17, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Try opening your videos in Adobe Premiere, you'll find it more practical...


After some searching and doing a very unmanly thing, looking at the Canon EOS R manual lol, (who ever does that??  the manual is horrendous and hard to find what you want) I found the paragraph that explains how to grab a frame from a 4k movie in Camera. On the EOS R, it gives an approximately 8.3mp stills JPEG so if the R5 can produce a 35mp still the same way, I'll be a very happy man and probably actually shoot in 8K when it's possible a stills shot at 20FPS might not catch it. I don't think there is any risk either of me getting close to the 8K recording limit either.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure I'll ever have a situation where 20fps won't capture the image with the type of shots I do but it's always nice to have the extra feature for unexpected situations, maybe like a wedding, throwing the bouquet or confetti etc. It might actually mean I broaden my horizons.


----------



## freejay (Jul 17, 2020)

Besisika said:


> I am a photographer first as well and interested mostly in the 45MP. However, I shoot band and choir concerts quite often on my 1DX II.
> If you tell us more what disappoints you most among the video limits, someone with better experience may suggest how would you use the camera once you get it. I am assuming that you want to frame, press record, take a comfortable sit, wait until the concert is finished and press stop. But I am assuming and I can be wrong.
> Let us know.


You seem to think that I'm not very experienced with cameras and therefore you want to help me. I really appreciate that. But I am experienced, so I know what I'm talking about and what the limits of this camera are.

What am I most disappointed with? That they still include the 29 minutes59 seconds limit that made some financial sense in former years, but not anymore since 1 or 2 years. Now for concerts I need to by an external recorder for another 700 € or so. After paying almost 5000 € for the camera. That is really a pity... I can totally live with some heat limitations in special modes but the fact that the not heat limited modes are also limited by recording length is really disappointing. For me. I ordered it anyway, so... ;-)


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 17, 2020)

Kit. said:


> You can postprocess away the difference between a 8K sensor and a 4K sensor if what you want as the end result is 4K. But not if what you want is 8K.



I was referring rather to the noise reduction.
But with 4k/8k, that shows exactly why you can't 'postprocrosses away' the difference.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 17, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I was referring rather to the noise reduction.


That's how you reduce the "extra" noise on the 8K sensor when the resolution of the 4K sensor would be good enough for you.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 17, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> I'll be a very happy man and probably actually shoot in 8K when it's possible a stills shot at 20FPS might not catch it.



tbh it looks like an emergency replacement of high speed stills shooting for very very edge cases.
Grabbed jpegs from 8K stream may and will disappoint when compared to stills in raw format.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 17, 2020)

Kit. said:


> That's how you reduce the "extra" noise on the 8K sensor when the resolution of the 4K sensor would be good enough for you.



But the point was to do noise reduction on a poorer image so that it allegedly 'postprocrosses away' the difference. Not downsample 8k to 4k which is completely pointless in terms of this talk.

I have a 45mp low noise image, you have a 24mp high noise image. We both shot the same scene at the same time.
I don't give you my image. Now postprocess away the difference, so that a third party won't tell which one is which.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 17, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> But the point was to do noise reduction on a poorer image so that it allegedly 'postprocrosses away' the difference.


No, the point was that the modern higher-resolution sensors have the same amount of noise after postprocessing to the same final image format as the lower-resolution sensors.


----------



## Besisika (Jul 17, 2020)

freejay said:


> You seem to think that I'm not very experienced with cameras and therefore you want to help me. I really appreciate that. But I am experienced, so I know what I'm talking about and what the limits of this camera are.
> 
> What am I most disappointed with? That they still include the 29 minutes59 seconds limit that made some financial sense in former years, but not anymore since 1 or 2 years. Now for concerts I need to by an external recorder for another 700 € or so. After paying almost 5000 € for the camera. That is really a pity... I can totally live with some heat limitations in special modes but the fact that the not heat limited modes are also limited by recording length is really disappointing. For me. I ordered it anyway, so... ;-)


Aah, my bad. Since you are very experienced, you need no help. That is good.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Jul 17, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> tbh it looks like an emergency replacement of high speed stills shooting for very very edge cases.
> Grabbed jpegs from 8K stream may and will disappoint when compared to stills in raw format.


Your probably right. I've never grabbed stills from Video so cant say what they are like and will probably do high speed stills as a primary method anyway. 

I cant wait to try the R5 frame rates as although I love the R for landscape & stationary things, it drives me nuts when I try and take images of fast moving subjects even in high speed AF servo. Anything other than single shot turns out with the focus not where I want it. Maybe I'm just rubbish at panning and following a subject but the AF tracking modes on the R5 will be a game changer for me if they are as good as they look. I cant wait to get my sticky little fingers on it.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 17, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> You can't postprocess away the difference between sensors. If sensor A lags behind sensor B and you reduce noise on images from sensor A, you can also reduce noise on images from sensor B and it's ahead again. Postprocessing doesn't eliminate the difference and doesn't improve sensor performance.


You missed the point and you are wrong.

First off the most common examples and certainly the most consistent comparisons we see (DPReview) have been processed in an Adobe standard post process, my point was standard for two is not optimal for either. Process both optimally and the differences are not visible in normal output sizes. Putting in standard or consistent processing values for different sensors means you have to change the processing on both, not one, to get optimal results.

You are wrong because you absolutely can process away noise at the expense of detail given a higher resolution image. 

Look at it like this there is a range of slider settings where the output is optimal per image and sensor, at some point during that range of different but optimal settings (visible at output sized improvement) the two sensors output overlap. You can choose either file to show more detail with less noise or the other way around, but both images look the same at output size. Now the higher density sensor image will have the noise reduction set to a higher value, but does that really mean it makes more noise, after all the lower resolution sensor will have more sharpening. 

Either way it doesn't matter, the output result is visibly the same. If you don't agree show me a studio example that I can download that illustrates your point.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 17, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> You are wrong because you absolutely can process away noise at the expense of detail given a higher resolution image.



I'm right because we're dealing with the simple laws of information. Almost any processing (including noise reduction and downsampling) causes loss of information.
If sensor A and sensor B have the same resolution but different noise (A noisier than B), it's impossible to make them equal through noise reduction on A. You can de-noise A and lose information (resolution), although visually it may appear having the same noise as B. But then you can also reduce noise in B and make it even cleaner.

If A is still noisier than B but has greater resolution, you can downsample and reduce noise but again you lose information, maybe you get the same IQ as B after downsampling but it's not the original image. You can reduce both to small rectangles of 2x3 pixels (6 pixels in total) , they will look exactly the same, but what will it prove?



privatebydesign said:


> Look at it like this there is a range of slider settings where the output is optimal per image and sensor



I'm not sure what 'optimal' means here. I don't thing there's 'optimal' settings for any sensor. What you're saying means we're tweaking settings on A and B so that they both lose information, maybe in different ways, and eventually they look the same. Yeas maybe they may look very close but _one of them will lose more information than another_. So it'll never be a fair comparison.



privatebydesign said:


> at some point during that range of different but optimal settings (visible at output sized improvement) the two sensors output overlap. You can choose either file to show more detail with less noise or the other way around, but both images look the same at output size.



As in my previous message, I have a 45mp sensor and you have a 20mp sensor - please tune your setting up to get the same result on a chosen output image of 8192 x 5464 px.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 17, 2020)

Now you are changing what I said to a pathetic degree. I never said you could make all sensors equal in every aspect, with a higher resolution sensor you have the option to trade noise and detail to match noise levels of lower resolution sensors, ergo there is no noise advantage to lower resolution sensors.

By optimal processing I mean processing an image file as well as you can to get the image quality you need. Simple and practical, not theoretical and irrelevant.

But show me some examples we can all download to illustrate your point that disproves mine.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 17, 2020)

Looks like Armando just got the Production R5, wait till the end of the video


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 17, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> You can't postprocess away the difference between sensors.



There isn't much of a high ISO difference *at the same view size.*



> If sensor A lags behind sensor B and you reduce noise on images from sensor A, you can also reduce noise on images from sensor B and it's ahead again.



Except sensor A is 45mp and sensor B is 20mp. Assuming a real difference in noise quantity between them, if you NR sensor B to the same extent as sensor A then sensor B is going to be quite soft and lacking in detail.

Though, again, for the same generation there isn't really a quantity difference to speak of. There is a quality difference in that high MP noise tends to come off as sharper and can therefore seem more obtrusive. But that's trivial to fix in post.


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 17, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> If A is still noisier than B but has greater resolution, you can downsample and reduce noise but again you lose information, maybe you get the same IQ as B after downsampling but it's not the original image.



No, it's "only" as good as B. So even if we assume greater resolution = greater noise, you're not losing anything. You've got resolution at low ISO and similar noise IQ at high ISO.



> As in my previous message, I have a 45mp sensor and you have a 20mp sensor - please tune your setting up to get the same result on a chosen output image of 8192 x 5464 px.



You can't, but that's a false analogy. You're asking him to add information where non exists. Matching high ISO performance involves removing noise while retaining at least as much information as the other camera. If you have two 20mp sensors with a 1ev difference in high ISO noise it's impossible. But if you have a 45mp and a 20mp sensor with a 1ev difference in noise, it's quite doable.

But...*again*...the quantity differences aren't there, at least not to the extent people believe they are. There is literally not a 1ev difference between a 5Ds/sR and a 1DX mark III. Try it in DPReview's studio tool. Put it in RAW, then put the 5Ds/sR at any ISO you want and set the 1DX mark III 1 stop higher, Comp or Print viewing mode. The 1DX mark III is always worse meaning the difference between them is <1ev. Yet common wisdom says the former was horrible at high ISO and the latter is the gold standard.

And before you say 'Canon capped the 5Ds/sR at 12,800 while the 1DX mark III can go to 819,200" that is purely marketing driven, and also purely marketing drivel. 1DX mark III RAWs fall apart passed 51,200 and I would be hesitant to use any current FF body at 25,600. If you want 25,600 from a 5Ds underexpose 1ev and push in post. There are not separate amp stages for these ISOs in any shipping sensors, by these ISOs they are all pushing digitally any way.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Jul 17, 2020)

Awesome, more full production units in the wild.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Jul 18, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Awesome, more full production units in the wild.



Smells good! Thanks!


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 18, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> No, it's "only" as good as B. So even if we assume greater resolution = greater noise, you're not losing anything. You've got resolution at low ISO and similar noise IQ at high ISO.



When you downsample, you gain in noise reduction but lose reslution, overall you're still losing information.



dtaylor said:


> You can't, but that's a false analogy. You're asking him to add information where non exists.



That was the point exactly. And requiring one to shrink his images is also not fair 



dtaylor said:


> Matching high ISO performance involves removing noise while retaining at least as much information as the other camera. If you have two 20mp sensors with a 1ev difference in high ISO noise it's impossible. But if you have a 45mp and a 20mp sensor with a 1ev difference in noise, it's quite doable.



That's how photonstophotos and DxO do their measurements. It's ok as long we know how it's measured and the limitations of the measurements. But I was arguing over a bit different statement on manipulating sliders for some 'optimal' results from both sensors.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Now you are changing what I said to a pathetic degree. I never said you could make all sensors equal in every aspect, with a higher resolution sensor you have the option to trade noise and detail to match noise levels of lower resolution sensors, ergo there is no noise advantage to lower resolution sensors.



I was just illustrating that it's not that easy to 'post process away' the differences between the sensors.



privatebydesign said:


> By optimal processing I mean processing an image file as well as you can to get the image quality you need. Simple and practical, not theoretical and irrelevant.
> 
> But show me some examples we can all download to illustrate your point that disproves mine.



Unfortunately I only have one camera atm. We can take examples from DPR. What exactly are you suggesting to compare?


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## dtaylor (Jul 18, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> When you downsample, you gain in noise reduction but lose reslution, overall you're still losing information.



But not in relation to camera B.



> And requiring one to shrink his images is also not fair



"Fair" has nothing to do with it. And we view/print images to specific sizes. If the 20mp camera has enough resolution for your view size, then so does the 45mp one scaled down to eliminate noise.



> That's how photonstophotos and DxO do their measurements.



I'm looking at images, not graphs. PTP can yield valuable info, but an arbitrary threshold in a pixel S/N test is not a 2D photographic print.


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## dtaylor (Jul 18, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I was just illustrating that it's not that easy to 'post process away' the differences between the sensors.



When it comes to noise you honestly don't have to post process anything. Simply viewing at the same size rather than pixel peeping will result in noise appearing very similar because it is for the same sensor size.


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## Quackator (Jul 18, 2020)

bbb34 said:


> I still don't see the point of comparing these two cameras. They are targeting very different use cases.



Usable video inside the R5, and it could cover that use case as well.
*Plus* photography.


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## Quackator (Jul 18, 2020)

BurningPlatform said:


> I do wonder how you would get 4k or FHD RAW out of a 45 M pixel sensor,
> especially full frame.



Grant Petty yesterday answered that en passant as well.
The new URSA 12k downsamples from a symmetrical
sensor pattern to yet unseen color excellence.


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## Quackator (Jul 18, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> You're not recording when you're pre-roll checks like framing, color, exposure, etc...
> Therefore the camera will run all day long, or until the battery runs out. It's the active RECORDING that generates the heat. We know this factually because it's the same case with existing cameras (DSLR and MILC) when in video mode. Simply monitoring the sensor via EVF or Liveview screen takes comparably little processing power.



Magic Lantern on a 5D Mk3 is able to display the sensor temperature.
One can easily monitor how the sensor temperature increses pretty fast.
It stays at a somewhat high temperature after some time, so yes, you 
can run it all day in preview mode.

But you will have an already elevated temperature on your hands when
you finally start recording. R5/R6 are no different.


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## Quackator (Jul 18, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> In fairness Canon has never positioned this camera as A-roll for a professional "video production."



Right, BUT! You could run the 5D Mk3/4 all day without ever overheating.
A few dropped frames every 12 minutes / 4GB are much more acceptable
than 20 minute waiting intervals.

This is a big step back in usability in my eyes.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 18, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> "Fair" has nothing to do with it. And we view/print images to specific sizes. If the 20mp camera has enough resolution for your view size, then so does the 45mp one scaled down to eliminate noise.



Scaling down itself is an arbitrary process as you're trying to equalise both cameras by choosing arbitrary target size. As above, at the extremities, we can have a 3x2 px rectangle which will eliminate all the differences between the sensors, and the resolution of the sensor B (higher resolution). Why are you downscaling B to A, not upscaling A to B? Maybe we need to print very large.



dtaylor said:


> When it comes to noise you honestly don't have to post process anything. Simply viewing at the same size rather than pixel peeping will result in noise appearing very similar because it is for the same sensor size.



But why we choose the lower-mpix sensor as a target size?


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## BurningPlatform (Jul 18, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Grant Petty yesterday answered that en passant as well.
> The new URSA 12k downsamples from a symmetrical
> sensor pattern to yet unseen color excellence.



Interesting. BM sure has an interesting codec in BM BRAW. The files. though, are partly demosaiced in-camera, which probably makes these kinds of tricks possible and are a good compromise between file size and quality. I do not know the internals of the RAW format in R5, though. It seems to be Canon Cinema RAW Light, though, as the compression factor is about 1:5. (It would be cool if vendors did not call these lossy-compressed un-demosaiced or partly demosaiced formats RAW, but well, here we are and there's nothing I can do about it.) 

I *guess* pulling some kind of downsampled 4k Canon Cinema RAW (light) from the 8k R5 Bayer-sensor is a bit too processor intensive for even the R5 processor. We'll see what Canon engineers come up with in the future.


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## dtaylor (Jul 18, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Scaling down itself is an arbitrary process as you're trying to equalise both cameras by choosing arbitrary target size.



Within a given technological generation same format sensors *are essentially equal in high ISO noise performance.* They only appear unequal when you arbitrarily enlarge one more than the other, otherwise known as pixel peeping. Telling you to view at the same size and/or apply some NR before downsizing for print is not an attempt to make the sensors equal. They already are virtually equal in noise quantity. It's an attempt to get you away from pixel peeping (which is explicitly unequal), and also to explain how you can deal with the qualitative difference in noise from higher pixel density sensors (it's literally sharper).

I typically do not reference DxO because A) they are prone to error, and B) I've never cared for how they present their results (i.e. sensor scoring). But some of their tests do provide valuable insight. Do you know what their Sports test scores tell us? *That high ISO differences between FF cameras are negligible.* They show a 1/3rd stop difference between the 5Ds and 5D mark IV, and maybe a half stop between the 5Ds and 1DX mark III. This is in rough agreement with what I see when looking at DPReview RAW samples. And these aren't even of the same tech generation. The 5D IV and 1DX mark III have lower pixel densities and newer tech, and that's all the improvement they can deliver. You'll find the differences to be minor within both the Nikon and Sony lines as well.

Pixel density simply does not impact high ISO noise to the degree people believe. Nor is technology improving high ISO performance very quickly, if at all with some generations. The easy gains here were made in the 2000's. We're now at the point that photon shot noise dominates by a wide margin, and the electronics are about as good as they're going to get without active cooling or CFA removal. If you're expecting the R5 to be leaps and bounds better than the 5Ds/sR at high ISO, or the R6 to be better than the R5, you've set yourself up for disappointment. (Though, knowing how human beings perceive the world, if you believe R5/R6 high ISO will be dramatically better than any FF camera before, then you will likely experience that regardless of the truth.)



> Why are you downscaling B to A, not upscaling A to B?



If you upscale A to B the noise quantity will be nearly identical. The noise quality will be different because everything in A will be blurrier than it appears in B.



> But why we choose the lower-mpix sensor as a target size?



Because as a general rule people don't expect to make 48" prints from ISO 12,800 shots.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 19, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Within a given technological generation same format sensors *are essentially equal in high ISO noise performance.*



That's true, but the conversation somehow slipped into the high-ISO performance topic. Original post doesn't say anything about high ISO, as far as I can see. It says about postprocessing away differences between different sensors in general.



dtaylor said:


> If you're expecting the R5 to be leaps and bounds better than the 5Ds/sR at high ISO, or the R6 to be better than the R5, you've set yourself up for disappointment.



I'm hoping for a 1-stop increase at the base ISO, and I believe Canon promised that to PDR guys. Also it was repeated at B&H broadcast. I don't remember Canon has ever promised concrete figures before, so this is something. But that most likely applies to the base ISO performance.
High ISO increase would be nice but highly unlikely to expect from the R5, if its performance is close to 1DxIII.





__





Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting






www.photonstophotos.net





significant improvement can be achieved in 16-bit sensors as we can see in the chart above.

UPD: I've re-read the conversation and apparently the high ISO is mentioned there. So partially I missed the point. Still I stand you can't 'postprocess away' the difference, if there's any. And optimal slider settings don't compensate the difference either.


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## dtaylor (Jul 19, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I'm hoping for a 1-stop increase at the base ISO, and I believe Canon promised that to PDR guys.



R6 vs R5? Or both vs 5D4? I don't know if you'll get that but you might. Base ISO DR is a different beast than high ISO noise and if they improved the circuitry the R5/R6 might be better, but the 5D4 and 1DX mark III are already quite good. I suspect the R6 sensor is basically the 1DX mark III sensor, so if there's a DR improvement it may only appear in the R5.



> significant improvement can be achieved in 16-bit sensors as we can see in the chart above.



I would guess that's more about the larger MF sensor than 14-vs-16 bit ADCs.



> Still I stand you can't 'postprocess away' the difference, if there's any. And optimal slider settings don't compensate the difference either.



I don't know why you would cling to that position when you can literally download RAWs from dpreview or Imaging Resource and quickly 'post process away' small noise differences between an older, higher resolution sensor and a newer, lower resolution sensor.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 19, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> R6 vs R5? Or both vs 5D4? I don't know if you'll get that but you might.



Canon said we could expect an about 1-stop improvement in the R5 against the R/5DIV. Which is more than I hoped for. tbh it was a major factor why I preordered it. Otherwise I'd have waited for the reviews. Very rarely we get concrete figures on DR from Canon, so I trust Canon's reputation in this case. Hopefully it's all true, but I think they're scratching the very bottom already and further improvements will only come with 16-bit FF sensors.



dtaylor said:


> I would guess that's more about the larger MF sensor than 14-vs-16 bit ADCs.



Perhaps it's also a big factor, but higher bitness means the noise/fluctuations in the lowest bit are less significant, that's why 16 bit sensors have more room for noise reduction. You can see GFX 100 cropped to FF is still better than A7rIV





__





Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting






www.photonstophotos.net







dtaylor said:


> I don't know why you would cling to that position when you can literally download RAWs from dpreview or Imaging Resource and quickly 'post process away' small noise differences between an older, higher resolution sensor and a newer, lower resolution sensor.



Downsamling of the higher-res image is not a valid postprocessing - as I argued earlier in this thread, suppose you have a 20mp image and I have a 45mp image - it's your task to manipulate *your* image, not mine. 
And if you apply say some noise reduction to your image, I can also apply noise reduction to my image and I'm ahead again.


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## Starting out EOS R (Jul 19, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Canon said we could expect an about 1-stop improvement in the R5 against the R/5DIV. Which is more than I hoped for. tbh it was a major factor why I preordered it. Otherwise I'd have waited for the reviews. Very rarely we get concrete figures on DR from Canon, so I trust Canon's reputation in this case. Hopefully it's all true, but I think they're scratching the very bottom already and further improvements will only come with 16-bit FF sensors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You guys are amazing. This is possibly the longest thread I've seen and whilst you don't agree on one aspect and probably never will lol, the conversation has generally been well meaning which is welcome. I'll admit some of the stuff you've been discussing is way above my skills set but keep going it's always interesting.


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## dtaylor (Jul 19, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Downsamling of the higher-res image is not a valid postprocessing



You don't need to explicitly down sample anything. Just compare sensors at the same view size. It's pixel peeping that's not valid because it inherently magnifies one image more than another.



> as I argued earlier in this thread, suppose you have a 20mp image and I have a 45mp image - it's your task to manipulate *your* image, not mine.
> And if you apply say some noise reduction to your image, I can also apply noise reduction to my image and I'm ahead again.



So if you agree that a high MP image can take more NR than a low MP image, why are we debating this point? A 5 year old 5Ds/sR has more noise at ISO 12,800 than a 1DX mark III (by about 0.5ev). You can see that at the same view size. But it also retains more detail. So you can NR the 5Ds/sR to have the same noise levels as the 1DX mark III, yet still have at least as much if not more detail. And you can't just apply more NR to the 20mp file to "stay ahead" because it will just make it even softer compared to the 50mp file.

And this brings us all the way back to the original point: you lose nothing with higher pixel density. An R6 will not be a "low light monster" compared to an R5. They are likely to have similar high ISO performance to within 1/3ev or less. *Edit:* but even if they were different, you've got 25 extra MP to trade off in NR.

Base ISO DR is a different beast and does rely on circuit design and pixel size, so it's hard to say which will have better DR until tests come out.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 19, 2020)

We already have the core results of the R6 high iso performance as it shares the sensor to a major degree with the 1DX MkIII, and that showed no high iso improvement over the 5D MkIV.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 19, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> So if you agree that a high MP image can take more NR than a low MP image, why are we debating this point?



If you mean "downsampling = NR" it's not really a valid 'postprocessing'.
It can, but it doesn't eliminate the difference in noise - after downsampling it's not the same original image. My point was simply that you can't postprocess away the difference.



dtaylor said:


> A 5 year old 5Ds/sR has more noise at ISO 12,800 than a 1DX mark III (by about 0.5ev). You can see that at the same view size. But it also retains more detail. So you can NR the 5Ds/sR to have the same noise levels as the 1DX mark III, yet still have at least as much if not more detail.



According to PTP, they have about 0.4 stop difference at ISO 800, and just 0.2 stops at ISO 12800. But that's not just any view size, it's the size used in PTP metrics. The resulting difference may change if we change the target size.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 19, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> We already have the core results of the R6 high iso performance as it shares the sensor to a major degree with the 1DX MkIII, and that showed no high iso improvement over the 5D MkIV.



Exactly. My hope (based on Canon's remarks) was the R5 would show the DR improvement at the base ISO. I don't expect any significant improvement at high ISOs. My hope is, at high ISOs it won't have heavy banding in the shadows like 5DIV. But it wasn't promised by Canon though.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 19, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Exactly. My hope (based on Canon's remarks) was the R5 would show the DR improvement at the base ISO. I don't expect any significant improvement at high ISOs. My hope is, at high ISOs it won't have heavy banding in the shadows like 5DIV. But it wasn't promised by Canon though.


You have turned your argument about high iso noise in so many knots through the various threads you now agree with me! Pathetic. Oh and thanks for the images that proved the point you were arguing days ago when I realized it was a complete waste of time.

P.S. And no I'm not interested in rehashing it or relitigating your argumentative nonsense.


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## PureClassA (Jul 19, 2020)

Quackator said:


> Magic Lantern on a 5D Mk3 is able to display the sensor temperature.
> One can easily monitor how the sensor temperature increses pretty fast.
> It stays at a somewhat high temperature after some time, so yes, you
> can run it all day in preview mode.
> ...



I had the camera running and recording externally for 1.5 Hours STRAIGHT. Plus another 10-20 mins before hand doing ore-roll checks. EOS R never even got warm. Not remotely. And at 1080p, it is using the whole sensor. Power consumption and heat is ALL about the recording/encoding which in this case done by Atomos. And If you’re doing THAT serious of work where you are spending 20mins on pre-roll doing shot alignment etc... You are either pro enough to be shooting with a Cinema Camera or you are rolling externally.

and If you are shooting in 8k, you’re filling the card Up in 20 mins. Drone? The Pro grade Octocopter has a flight time of 20 mins. So you cant exceed that anyway. And again, who in the hell is shooting at 4k120 for 20-30mins straight??? And if that’s a routine thing for you, then you should be shooting REDs (if they dont break) or ARRI.



in


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## dtaylor (Jul 19, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> If you mean "downsampling = NR" it's not really a valid 'postprocessing'.



I don't know what your hang up is on downsampling or why you keep brining it up. If downsampling a higher MP file to the same view size of the lower MP file makes the noise visually equal, then it was literally equal to begin with at the sensor. It's not downsampling which is 'invalid', it's pixel peeping. Viewing a 45mp file at the same size as a 20mp file is no different than viewing Adox CMS 20 at the same print size as Portra 400. You can't insist on printing Adox CMS 20 twice as large...which it can handle...and then claim Adox CMS 20 has more grain.

Of course people buy high resolution systems specifically so that they can enlarge more. But nobody is expecting to make large prints from very high ISOs.



> after downsampling it's not the same original image.



A permanent resize (as opposed to a resampling to a specific device's underlying pixel/dot matrix) does change the image, but keeping the "original image" is not a goal anyone cares about.



> My point was simply that you can't postprocess away the difference.



And you are observably wrong. You absolutely can trade resolution (sampling rate) for SNR, and photography is hardly the only field where that is done.



> According to PTP, they have about 0.4 stop difference at ISO 800, and just 0.2 stops at ISO 12800. But that's not just any view size, it's the size used in PTP metrics. The resulting difference may change if we change the target size.



Only if you force the sizes to be different.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 20, 2020)

dtaylor said:


> Of course people buy high resolution systems specifically so that they can enlarge more. But nobody is expecting to make large prints from very high ISOs.



I think we're talking about the same thing but using different semantics.
What I meant was, if you have technical differences between sensors such as noise, you can't equalise them. As in my example, if sensor A is noisier than sensor B, you can't just apply noise reduction to A and tell 'now the sensors are the same'. They're not the same because postprocessing makes comparison meaningless: you can apply the same noise reduction to B and make it better again, or apply even more NR to A and make it even 'better' than B.

The same applies to downsampling (no matter from high ISO or low ISO images). Trading off resolution for NR doesn't actually make sensors 'equal'.

But in the narrow practical sense, when you need files/prints of the same size - absolutely. Yes, within some limits and _by using digital manipulation,_ _you can produce images of the same resolution and IQ from different sensors_. 
But equalisation will always come at a cost of information loss (from one sensor or both). If you consider information loss, it's evident that digital manipulation can't really make one poor sensor on par with a better sensor.


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