# Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 11, 2017)

```
Little bits of information are coming about Canon’s next EOS 5DS camera body are coming out. The EOS 5DS or EOS 5DS R Mark II is expected to come some time in 2018.</p>
<p>We’re told the new EOS 5DS body will not see a big bump in resolution, while the number isn’t know for sure, we’re told to not expect more than a 20% <del>10%</del> increase. Hopefully image quality is the name of the game from the new high resolution DSLR body from Canon.</p>

<p><strong>*UPDATE*</strong> <em>We had a typo in our original post, it should have read 20% and not 10%. I apologize for the mistake.</em></p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## AvTvM (Oct 11, 2017)

oO, this gives me the gooseBUMPs. ;D


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## jolyonralph (Oct 11, 2017)

Here's a prediction.

If the 5DSR II has less than 60 megapixels, the 7D Mark III will have less than 24.


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## -pekr- (Oct 11, 2017)

They still have some old testing sensors in the basement, so they want to utilise them and 5DS is the first in the line, so here we go. Hope they will also remove some connector here or there and incorporate USB 1. Some arcane video codec would be nice to have too ...


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## Maximilian (Oct 11, 2017)

As I've always said: I prefer *better* over more pixels. 

This body is not my market, so they can do whatever they want 8)


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## jolyonralph (Oct 11, 2017)

If they even keep the pixel size the same but improve dynamic range and, most importantly, sensor throughput and write speed (ie frames per second) then it'd be a killer upgrade.

There have already been rumors that they'll offer a true crop mode (where the raw files are cropped and the sensor only pushes through the cropped area so framerate is much faster) which can only be done with on-chip ADC. 

This could turn the camera into a really powerful multipurpose camera rather than just a high-resolution specialty. Which is why, if they do this, I think they won't use the name 5DSR II, but it'll be the 2D, or 8D or something like that.


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## RGF (Oct 11, 2017)

Be nice if they could separate each half of the dual pixel to work independently. Either better dynamic range or better S/N. 

Also increased buffer size and high FPS.


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## shutterlag (Oct 11, 2017)

SO, I was feeling nostalgic for my old 6D. I haven't looked at Canon much since leaving. I pulled up the specs on the 6Dii and WOW - what is Canon doing? Have they given up on competing with anyone except themselves? I had returned a 5DS back when it released, for a multitude of reasons. That's when I left the system. It will be interesting to see what they do with the DS lineup - whether they continue with the lackluster upgrades like the 6Dii or get off their high horse and actually compete for a change. I hope they do turn it around. That D850 is a beast of a camera, but in the end it's still a DSLR and with each passing quarter the exist from these older systems continues.


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## RayValdez360 (Oct 11, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> If they even keep the pixel size the same but improve dynamic range and, most importantly, sensor throughput and write speed (ie frames per second) then it'd be a killer upgrade.
> 
> There have already been rumors that they'll offer a true crop mode (where the raw files are cropped and the sensor only pushes through the cropped area so framerate is much faster) which can only be done with on-chip ADC.
> 
> This could turn the camera into a really powerful multipurpose camera rather than just a high-resolution specialty. Which is why, if they do this, I think they won't use the name 5DSR II, but it'll be the 2D, or 8D or something like that.


 Mutlipurpose and Canon is almost an oxymoron. "if you want a crop mode get a crop sensor camera"- Canon But at least it will do video (probably crappy codec and maybe 4k) and photos, that is multipurpose...


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## unfocused (Oct 11, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> Here's a prediction.
> 
> If the 5DSR II has less than 60 megapixels, the 7D Mark III will have less than 24.



That's not really a prediction, that's just math. Whatever resolution the 5Ds series has, the 7DIII will of course have the same scaled down resolution, as Canon will almost certainly continue to use the same basic sensor in both. 

The real question, I believe, is: will the 5Ds and 7DIII all share essentially the same sensor with the 80D? Or, will it be a new sensor with very similar resolution? I would hope it is the latter, and Canon takes advantage of an additional two- to three-years of sensor development in the new bodies.


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## Mikehit (Oct 11, 2017)

RayValdez360 said:


> Mutlipurpose and Canon is almost an oxymoron. "if you want a crop mode get a crop sensor camera"- Canon But at least it will do video (probably crappy codec and maybe 4k) and photos, that is multipurpose...



I wonder how many Nikon Fx users, actually use their wonderful FX camera to shoot DX? And how often?


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## SecureGSM (Oct 11, 2017)

your wish was granted. hint: 5D IV - Dual Pixel RAW 

Forget subtle focus tweaks, Canon’s Dual Pixel RAW tech can give you an additional stop in the highlights!

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2016/09/01/dual-pixel-raw-redux-forget-focus-tweaks-canons-new-tech-can-yield-an-addit




RGF said:


> *Be nice if they could separate each half of the dual pixel to work independently. Either better dynamic range* or better S/N.
> 
> Also increased buffer size and high FPS.


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## AvTvM (Oct 11, 2017)

more megapixels are not needed for an on-par Nikon D850 competitor ... but a lot else.


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## dolina (Oct 11, 2017)

The 5Ds is positioned to be the cheapest way to get 50.6MP images and is created to compete with cameras with 50-51MP image sensors found in medium format cameras.

Now, using current medium format cameras from Mamiya and Hassleblad as a pointer towards the next MP bump one would get 80MP & 100MP.

And please Canon! For heaven's put a memory card slots that read/write at faster than 167MB/s. CFast (600MB/s) and SDXC UHS-III (624MB/s) should be built-in.

And increase ISO sensitivity that is clean


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## Canoneer (Oct 11, 2017)

Makes sense. If Canon go wild on the resolution (i.e. the fabled 120MP sensor), then they'll limit the corner-to-corner image sharpness to a handful of L-series primes at F4-F9. But a full-frame sensor of 60-70MP will still be able to capitalize on the resolving power of all L-series primes, plus most of the L-series zooms. Keeping the MP bump modest also affords the 5DS II more DR, better noise management, and wider ISO range. All of those are critical if Canon wants to compete with the upcoming Sony a7R III, and the new crop medium format cameras.


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## Orangutan (Oct 11, 2017)

shutterlag said:


> WOW - what is Canon doing?


Making a lot of money. Other manufacturers, less so.



> Have they given up on competing...?


You misunderstand: Canon is a for-profit business so the word "compete" in that context is a business term, not an engineering term. We may not be entirely satisfied with some of the sensor specs of many of Canon's products, but money still talks. 

There is no doubt that certain photographers will find SoNikon compelling. If I could afford a D850 and glass I'd probably buy. But then, if I had that kind of money loose in my pockets I'd also buy a MF kit. Each purchaser must make an individual decision about which products to buy, and so far that favors Canon.


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## PRINZMETAL (Oct 11, 2017)

SecureGSM said:


> your wish was granted. hint: 5D IV - Dual Pixel RAW
> 
> Forget subtle focus tweaks, Canon’s Dual Pixel RAW tech can give you an additional stop in the highlights!
> 
> ...



I think they will make their dpaf sensor so it automatically adjusts af at various distances for all modern canon lenses. If it does this easily without hassle then why buy a mirrorless camera? The lens sizes at tele sizes are the same.


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## infared (Oct 11, 2017)

...better pixel depth and improved AF capabilities is what will attract users to this camera, even if the sensor stays at the same resolution size.
I also wish Canon would release a 5D IV with no AA filter. That would be attractive, too.


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## FramerMCB (Oct 11, 2017)

-pekr- said:


> They still have some old testing sensors in the basement, so they want to utilise them and 5DS is the first in the line, so here we go. Hope they will also remove some connector here or there and incorporate USB 1. Some arcane video codec would be nice to have too ...



;D ;D ;D


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## FramerMCB (Oct 11, 2017)

unfocused said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a prediction.
> ...



You mean like they did with the 6D Mk II?


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## ahsanford (Oct 11, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> If they even keep the pixel size the same but improve dynamic range and, most importantly, sensor throughput and write speed (ie frames per second) then it'd be a killer upgrade.
> 
> There have already been rumors that they'll offer a true crop mode (where the raw files are cropped and the sensor only pushes through the cropped area so framerate is much faster) which can only be done with on-chip ADC.
> 
> This could turn the camera into a really powerful multipurpose camera rather than just a high-resolution specialty. Which is why, if they do this, I think they won't use the name 5DSR II, but it'll be the 2D, or 8D or something like that.



You are effectively describing a 5DS2 and 7D3 in the same body, i.e. you can throw (hypothetically) ~ 350 MB/s throughput at either 60 MP x 6 fps in FF or 24 MP x 15 fps in crop.

The problem with that idea, of course, is _the mirror box and shutter don't get the luxury of a crop mode_, so this would require 1DX-level internals to cover the high speed crop use. This would quickly become a $5000+ supercamera, and possibly obviate the need for folks to have a high detail camera and an action-oriented camera. 

For those reasons, sure, moving up to a different (higher prestige) name branding is logical, but offering such a product at all is not. This is one camera that would prevent people from potentially buying two. I don't see it happening.

- A


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## rjbray01 (Oct 11, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> If they even keep the pixel size the same but improve dynamic range and, most importantly, sensor throughput and write speed (ie frames per second) then it'd be a killer upgrade.
> 
> There have already been rumors that they'll offer a true crop mode (where the raw files are cropped and the sensor only pushes through the cropped area so framerate is much faster) which can only be done with on-chip ADC.
> 
> This could turn the camera into a really powerful multipurpose camera rather than just a high-resolution specialty. Which is why, if they do this, I think they won't use the name 5DSR II, but it'll be the 2D, or 8D or something like that.



would a true crop mode mean that the cropped image filled the viewfinder ?


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## Jopa (Oct 11, 2017)

50Mpx is quite enough actually. DPAF + some DR improvements = total happiness.


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## Jopa (Oct 11, 2017)

Orangutan said:


> shutterlag said:
> 
> 
> > WOW - what is Canon doing?
> ...



It totally makes sense to compare a high-end Nikon to a low-end Canon  Don't feed the troll...


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## ahsanford (Oct 11, 2017)

rjbray01 said:


> would a true crop mode mean that the cropped image filled the viewfinder ?



No, but folks won't mind if it gets you (say) a 2x FPS boost.

But I think it would be possible to have a VF switch to drop in a crop-mode viewfinder magnifier. It would be large/bulky (or change the top VF bump shape considerably), so I don't see it happening in the production camera. That screams optional eyepiece attachment and not standard hardware to me. 

I think it would be more straightforward to simply frame the crop modes in the VF (see how the D810 does it here) and not try to magnify it.

- A


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## Hornet (Oct 11, 2017)

By now we know how to predict Canon's newest releases - just look at what other manufacturers did two years ago


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## ahsanford (Oct 11, 2017)

Hornet said:


> By now we know how to predict Canon's newest releases - just look at what other manufacturers did two years ago



We're actually quite good at predicting releases -- just the timing and name of them. 

Canon is a creature of habit, so it's not hard to see what's coming next. But I wonder (for the umpteenth time) if Canon might accelerate the 5DS2/5DSR2 to better fall in line with the 5D4 so there isn't 'feature-set envy' for shoppers. They have relative parity in the prestige sense of things, but their staggered release timing might have some folks sit on their money at the time of one being released, awaiting for the next incarnation of the other product line to possibly have that one added extra thing they wanted. 

For instance, how many folks are not getting the 5DS R they want because they're dead set the Mk II will have DPAF, on-chip ADC / better base ISO DR, DP RAW, etc?

- A


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## wockawocka (Oct 11, 2017)

Whatever they do it needs to be good.

The D850 for example really has all the bells and whistles. As a 5D4 owner I'm envious of a Nikon for the first time ever.

Whatever Canon do they really need to sort out the delay between viewing the last image shot and the god forsaken buffer.

Memory is cheap, let us take more photos in a sequence dammit. It's really insulting.

I know it's been said that Canon likes to keep lines split but the 5Div has a more useful touchscreen than the 1DX. If canon were into holding features back then they dropped the ball on that one.

Give us a bigger buffer you assholes.


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## Jopa (Oct 11, 2017)

Hornet said:


> By now we know how to predict Canon's newest releases - just look at what other manufacturers did two years ago



We also know how to predict newest troll's jokes - just look at what other trolls joked two years ago


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## AdjustedInCamera (Oct 11, 2017)

I hope this camera gets a tilty-flippy screen for two reasons:
1) It's all I ever post about on this forum 
2) It seems to me that it would be a great feature for a camera that would routinely be used on a tripod - let's you see the screen easily at any height
This would also allow the camera to better compete with D850


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## keithcooper (Oct 11, 2017)

*Yay - saves money for me *

Well, if true, it looks like my bank account will be grateful, and I can revive my 'skip every other model' policy.

The 5Ds does fine - I still don't really care about video/AF/FPS so any 'quality improvements' would have to be stunning to matter. Adding 4k, DPAF, Digic 7 and a flip out screen might appeal to enough to bump sales, but not here (YMMV)

DR arguments come mostly from those that wouldn't know what it was if it fell on them, and all too many people who whinge about the 5Ds would do better with a 5D4.

Obviously requirements differ, but the 5Ds does a good job in helping me put food on the table ;-)


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## ahsanford (Oct 11, 2017)

AdjustedInCamera said:


> I hope this camera gets a tilty-flippy screen for two reasons:
> 1) It's all I ever post about on this forum
> 2) It seems to me that it would be a great feature for a camera that would routinely be used on a tripod - let's you see the screen easily at any height
> This would also allow the camera to better compete with D850



I've come a full 180 on this feature over the years.

I can't see another Canon camera getting made without a tilty-flippy other than 1-series bodies. Whatever fears people have of them breaking at this point are dwarfed by the value they offer, especially with DPAF and the ability to shoot over your head by touch.

Unless you are exclusively a war correspondent or arctic wildlifer (or something), it's hard to build a strong case that you can't just leave an articulating screen locked in place. 

I don't want to take the thread OT over a general feature debate, but I am curious to see if (for this thread) people think the 5DS/R2 will get tilty-flippy or not. Whaddya think? 

The only way I see a 5DS/R2 *not* getting a tilty-flippy is because Canon is trying to maximize subcomponent volumes for cost and continuing to work off of the same chassis / frame as the 5D4 line.

- A


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## Pookie (Oct 11, 2017)

*Re: Yay - saves money for me *



keithcooper said:


> Well, if true, it looks like my bank account will be grateful, and I can revive my 'skip every other model' policy.
> 
> The 5Ds does fine - I still don't really care about video/AF/FPS so any 'quality improvements' would have to be stunning to matter. Adding 4k, DPAF, Digic 7 and a flip out screen might appeal to enough to bump sales, but not here (YMMV)
> 
> ...



One of the most sane comments I've heard here in a long time.


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## KeithBreazeal (Oct 11, 2017)

Since Canon introduced the camera as a portrait/landscape version, I don't see any earth shattering improvements other than sensor performance. A tilt screen would probably be welcomed by most landscape photographers when it comes to low shots. 
The "new" 5DS should be utilizing the 5D Mark IV chassis, so a couple extra features to cross over. If a tilt screen is adopted, good, but I don't think that is in the cards. I'm betting the change to a tilt screen will be the 5D mark V.


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## Talys (Oct 11, 2017)

*Re: Yay - saves money for me *



Pookie said:


> keithcooper said:
> 
> 
> > Well, if true, it looks like my bank account will be grateful, and I can revive my 'skip every other model' policy.
> ...



As opposed to...

"If Canon wants my business they have to start making cameras for benchmarks and spec sheets instead of photographers!"


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## Takingshots (Oct 11, 2017)

It doesn't matter what consumers or loyal Canon fans want .. they are not listening. I waited for 6Dmkii but its release specs disappointed me for a 2K camera. 
"Lost in transition to FF".
I thought they were going to upgrade the software ... no news on what the upgrade meant to be.


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## NancyP (Oct 11, 2017)

I could go for a 6DIII with 20-ish MP and greatly improved dynamic resolution, very low noise without banding (astro suitable) and yes, the tilty screen would be handy. I haven't gotten into the remote-viewing-on-phone thing yet.


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## unfocused (Oct 11, 2017)

AdjustedInCamera said:


> I hope this camera gets a tilty-flippy screen...



I wouldn't hold my breath. The original 5Ds shares the same body as the 5D, presumably in order to save manufacturing and design costs. It seems very unlikely that the 5Ds would get a major body redesign that differs from the 5D IV. Doing so would significantly increase tooling and manufacturing costs for Canon and likely price the 5Ds out of the market.


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## Lurker (Oct 11, 2017)

> I wouldn't hold my breath. The original 5Ds shares the same body as the 5D, presumably in order to save manufacturing and design costs. It seems very unlikely that the 5Ds would get a major body redesign that differs from the 5D IV. Doing so would significantly increase tooling and manufacturing costs for Canon and likely price the 5Ds out of the market.



Unless, of course, the 5Ds II is just the first and all future 5D cameras will use the new body and have TFS.


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## deleteme (Oct 11, 2017)

*Re: Yay - saves money for me *



keithcooper said:


> Well, if true, it looks like my bank account will be grateful, and I can revive my 'skip every other model' policy.
> 
> The 5Ds does fine - I still don't really care about video/AF/FPS so any 'quality improvements' would have to be stunning to matter. Adding 4k, DPAF, Digic 7 and a flip out screen might appeal to enough to bump sales, but not here (YMMV)
> 
> ...



Completely agree.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 11, 2017)

Going to a dual pixel system effectively doubles the number of pixels, so a increase to 60 mp requires twice the number of sub photosites, which is going to be a challenge if anyone wants to use the dual pixel utilities.


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## Diko (Oct 11, 2017)

Canon Rumors said:


> .....Hopefully image quality is the name of the game from the new high resolution DSLR body from Canon



R u kiddin' me? Like what? A little DR improvement? A little improved DR and a stop more in ISO sensitivity?!?!

The AF will be little better with touchscreen and WiFi/NFC/Bluetooth. That sounds like joke already. Just like the fact it would come with Digic 7. So what?!? :-(


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## johnhenry (Oct 11, 2017)

AdjustedInCamera said:


> I hope this camera gets a tilty-flippy screen for two reasons:
> 1) It's all I ever post about on this forum
> 2) It seems to me that it would be a great feature for a camera that would routinely be used on a tripod - let's you see the screen easily at any height
> This would also allow the camera to better compete with D850



I have the 6D II now and so far, its kinda ho hum. The tilting screen is nice as you can shoot at different positions. The touch screen? Havent even used it yet.

The magnification for looking at pictures took some getting used to


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## PureClassA (Oct 11, 2017)

A 5DSR2 with 50MP that now uses the new sensor build and DPAF would be just fine. A Cfast slot by then would also be welcome. The AF on it currently is excellent for what you use it for (not a fast action camera really anyway) but Im sure that will get a bump up too.

I'm sure they could get crazy and start climbing towards 100MP but I think we start seeing diminishing returns even for the market the current 5DSR is built for. I use mine sparingly for critical portrait work just because of the obnoxiousness of files. 20MP on the DX2 is still my go-to and perfect for general shooting.

Plus now with the 5D4 at 30MP there are multiple great options for high resolution, unless of course you do a lot of work that involves substantial cropping.


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## dak723 (Oct 11, 2017)

Hornet said:


> By now we know how to predict Canon's newest releases - just look at what other manufacturers did two years ago



That's funny! Canon's 5Ds was the highest MP FF camera when it came out over 2 years ago - and is still the highest! Guess you didn't realize how silly your statement was.

Once again CR users show their complete ignorance of physics and pretty much everything else about cameras. Big jumps in DR and ISO sensitivity? Why, didn't you know we are so close to the upper limits now that there are no big jumps (nor were there ever..). You do understand that increasing MPs will increase noise and decrease DR - unless other ways are found to increase the efficiency of the signal? So at best any improvements will be small. You do understand that even at 50+ MPs, the camera (for the most part) needs to be used on a tripod to get the full benefit of those MPs? Hand held you will continue to need to increase the shutter speed ratio - you do understand that? - to a point where adding more MPs will lead to a point of diminishing returns as you fight motion blur? Yeah, let's get an 80 or 100 MP camera that doesn't get you more appreciably more resolution than a 50 or 60 MP camera (or less, hand held) with all the negatives that come with those huge MPs in terms of processing speed and file size.


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## rjbray01 (Oct 11, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > would a true crop mode mean that the cropped image filled the viewfinder ?
> ...



thank you - the video of how the D810 does it is very cool !

PS/ I think you're a great contributor to this forum - your posts always seem to be the voice of reason to me - albeit I'm a complete amateur - but thanks, they are invariably interesting and helpful ...


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## GoldWing (Oct 11, 2017)

I'd like to see more effort put into the IDX MKIII


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## Orangutan (Oct 11, 2017)

dak723 said:


> Big jumps in DR and ISO sensitivity? Why, didn't you know we are so close to the upper limits now


I remember seeing something recently about a sensor with multiple photosites under a single microlens to provide big jumps in DR. (Effectively, single-frame HDR) This has actually been done before, and is simply a matter of will/demand/cost; i.e., it's an engineering problem, not a physics problem.



> increasing MPs will increase noise


Per-pixel? Yes. Per-scene? No.



> unless *other ways *are found *to increase the efficiency of the signal*?


Isn't that what we're hoping will come out of R and into D?


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## ahsanford (Oct 11, 2017)

GoldWing said:


> I'd like to see more effort put into the IDX MKIII



Does "effort" mean resolution? Please be specific.

- A


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## Act444 (Oct 11, 2017)

As a 5DSR owner, I would rank the following in order of importance in a version 2:

1) Better High ISO Performance/Higher ISO Limit
2) More Speed/Processing Power
3) Bigger Buffer
.......

7) Upgraded AF System (to 5D4/1DX2 level)

........

........

100) More Resolution


*TL;DR:* 50MP is plenty already. Just work on making it a more well-rounded camera and you've got a winner.


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## [email protected] (Oct 12, 2017)

Act444 said:


> As a 5DSR owner, I would rank the following in order of importance in a version 2:
> 
> 1) Better High ISO Performance/Higher ISO Limit
> 2) More Speed/Processing Power
> ...



Yeah, this is mostly right.

There are a few items people put on spec wish lists that always puzzle me. Why would I care if the chip is a Digic 7 or whatnot? Canon plainly didn't max out the Digics on the 5D Mark IV (a pair of which I love) by giving them only 7 frames per second. It could be a Digic 38, and I'm still going to be stuck with a frame rate determined by a product manager rather than an engineer. 

I think similarly about mirrorless. Don't particularly care if it has a mirror or not.

FPS between 10 and 24 gets my heart racing, as does 15 stops of DR at 400-640 ISO, or cleanish output at 16,000 ISO. These are the sorts of things that get ingrained in you as you look at 1000s of shots in lightroom that "could have been."


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## Mancubus (Oct 12, 2017)

More than all these things you guys wrote, I want a proper option to get smaller raw files.

Most of my work gets published on facebook and gets seen on small phone screens. For this stuff, 20mp is more than enough.

However, once in a while I do special photoshoots that I love to print larger, in this case the more mp the better.

As long as they don't screw up on the smaller raw quality, it would be an amazing feature. If they do it right it would also allow very high iso performance.

As for the other features, I wish they would just look at the D850 and copy as best as they can, and this camera would be the best in the market.


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## brianftpc (Oct 12, 2017)

It wont be out in time to stop my move to an a9R...and it wont have the fps to hang with it.....or low light ability


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## bhf3737 (Oct 12, 2017)

Act444 said:


> As a 5DSR owner, I would rank the following in order of importance in a version 2:
> 
> 1) Better High ISO Performance/Higher ISO Limit
> 2) More Speed/Processing Power
> ...



I own and use 5DSR as my main body and I agree with the order of importance given here. more megapixels would be welcome it it does not compromise the low and high ISO performance.
I think items 2 and 3 are doable with the use of more advanced Digic whatever and faster card slots and Canon will probably provide them.
I have taken good and acceptable pictures with 5DSR at ISO ceiling of 6400 but I cannot say that it can comfortably used in that territory. The question is that what technology Canon can bring on for better high ISO performance and raising ISO ceiling? 
These days, the most promising technology that is put into all new Canon new releases is dual pixel DPAF. I understand DPAF can help improve the AF system, tracking moving objects and AF in video. These will be welcome additions but none are core functionalities for the 5DSR as a landscape/studio camera. 
Can anyone clarify whether DPAF can help with the improved higher ISO performance? 
Can on-chip ADC technology help? Definitely yes. 
Can it drastically improve the high ISO performance? Probably no. Therefore, moderate increase of megapixels (to be ahead of marketing competition) and on-chip ADC with better signal processing software will probably deliver moderately better higher ISO performance. 
Do we need backlit sensor or similar technology for much better higher ISO performance? Probably yes. Can it be done? Probably yes, but may need huge investment in sensor manufacturing and it will translate to higher production and hence product cost. Historically, Canon usually doesn't beta-test a new sensor technology in a high-end camera. 
So the guess is that a bit higher megapixel sensor with on-chip ADC would be something to expect. It would probably be with DPAF, not because of being needed in 5DSR but because it is already part of the Canon's sensor manufacturing process.


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## RayValdez360 (Oct 12, 2017)

The camera only needs 2 things, just 3 big things. I own the 5DSR. 1. More dynamic range(less banding when pushed). 2. Some new type of sensor stability because handheld with pixel peeping is less sharp at the same shutter speeds compared to smaller megapixel cameras. I am not tripoding every shoot. 3. Better AF. I dont care abotu video or crop modes but they are welcome.


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## PureClassA (Oct 12, 2017)

GoldWing said:


> I'd like to see more effort put into the IDX MKIII



As an owner and avid lover of the 1DX2 .... what more are you looking for at this point, given it's intended use?


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## goldenhusky (Oct 12, 2017)

> I wouldn't hold my breath. The original 5Ds shares the same body as the 5D, presumably in order to save manufacturing and design costs. It seems very unlikely that the 5Ds would get a major body redesign that differs from the 5D IV. Doing so would significantly increase tooling and manufacturing costs for Canon and likely price the 5Ds out of the market.



Exactly my thoughts. Plus they will use the same grip as 5d4 as they shared it between 5D3, 5ds and 5DsR.


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## goldenhusky (Oct 12, 2017)

> I can't see another Canon camera getting made without a tilty-flippy other than 1-series bodies. Whatever fears people have of them breaking at this point are dwarfed by the value they offer, especially with DPAF and the ability to shoot over your head by touch.
> 
> Unless you are exclusively a war correspondent or arctic wildlifer (or something), it's hard to build a strong case that you can't just leave an articulating screen locked in place.
> 
> ...



I guess Canon will most likely share chassis and components as much as possible between 5D4 and 5DsR2. I will be pleasantly surprised if they go out of the way to design a new body.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2017)

RayValdez360 said:


> The camera only needs 2 things, just 3 big things. I own the 5DSR. 1. More dynamic range(less banding when pushed). 2. Some new type of sensor stability because handheld with pixel peeping is less sharp at the same shutter speeds compared to smaller megapixel cameras. I am not tripoding every shoot. 3. Better AF. I dont care abotu video or crop modes but they are welcome.



The 5DS has a 5D3-like AF system, aka something very close to the 1DX1 AF system used on sidelines for years.

Besides DPAF, which it is sure to get next time, what exactly needs improvement on the 5DS AF setup?

- A


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## goldenhusky (Oct 12, 2017)

I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
DPAF
Touchscreen

and here is my wishlist
60MP
7FPS
DR >= 5D4
Better high ISO performance
AF performance >= 1Dx2
Bigger buffer
cFast & SD UHS3 - I guess SD UHS3 is less likely
Focus stacking
USB 3.1
Vari-Angle - I guess this is also less likely

I would trade my 5D4 even if canon delivers the top 4 items on my wishlist.


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## PureClassA (Oct 12, 2017)

Why design a new body? The 5D3 body (now 5D4 and 5Ds/R) is arguably the most celebrated pro body ergonomics ever done. Why screw with what work and what your (by FAR AND AWAY) biggest customer base is happily accustomed to? If there is some need to make improvements, then fine. But change for the sake of change bears bad fruit. If it ain't broke. Dont fix it.


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2017)

PureClassA said:


> Why design a new body? The 5D3 body (now 5D4 and 5Ds/R) is arguably the most celebrated pro body ergonomics ever done. Why screw with what work and what your (by FAR AND AWAY) biggest customer base is happily accustomed to? If there is some need to make improvements, then fine. But change for the sake of change bears bad fruit. If it ain't broke. Dont fix it.



Sure, but they could make it better without blowing up the ergonomics:

Give it a tilty-flippy
Same geometry with less weight (carbon fiber?)
Same geometry with some clever thinning / polycarb cap in one area for some sweet low powered NFC functionality
Slightly different geometry (up top) to put in onboard wireless flash control
Build an arca plate into the base (a flight of fancy, but some would love that)
Integral selfie stick

...but you get the idea. They'll make the most of the main 5D3 design that they can, but there comes a point where small decisions add up (cable release port in front, onboard wifi + BT + GPS, etc., battery changes, etc.) that there's a tipping point in which you move to a new frame design. 

- A


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## PureClassA (Oct 12, 2017)

I'm good on all of that. I was referring to the physical dis cast of the body. The size and feel is ab out as perfect as you could hope for. Switching out certain parts, making it lighter, adding this or that... all fine. Keep the primary and secondary controls where they are and most importantly keep the form factor and feel identical. It will always be a winner.



ahsanford said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Why design a new body? The 5D3 body (now 5D4 and 5Ds/R) is arguably the most celebrated pro body ergonomics ever done. Why screw with what work and what your (by FAR AND AWAY) biggest customer base is happily accustomed to? If there is some need to make improvements, then fine. But change for the sake of change bears bad fruit. If it ain't broke. Dont fix it.
> ...


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2017)

PureClassA said:


> I'm good on all of that...



Right right, agree.

I also forgot: backlit keys. That would be a very nice feature that is body-shape neutral.

Possibly also some speed efficiencies for grip attachment, like quicker / less fiddly battery cover removal and hideaway in the grip. There is nothing efficient about that process at all with my 5D3. In a perfect world where flex and sealing don't matter, something quick-connect with plug and play that obviates the need stick that thing in the battery socket would be dynamite. (But I'm guessing that's a pipe dream. Just from a design perspective, threads are somewhat essential to handle body as if it were integral and rigid.)

- A


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## keithcooper (Oct 12, 2017)

goldenhusky said:


> I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
> DPAF
> Touchscreen
> 
> ...



Exactly the set of things that mean relatively little to me as a 5Ds user - sounds more like features for the 5D mk5 (apart from the 60MP)

Could this be why I have a 5Ds not a 5D4? ;-)


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## Mikehit (Oct 12, 2017)

goldenhusky said:


> I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
> DPAF
> Touchscreen
> 
> ...



And how much do you want to pay for that beast? 
A camera that has a sensor with 3 times the resolution of the 1Dx2, a sensor with higher DR than the 1Dx2 and better AF than the 1Dx2.
There are wishlists and there are fantasies.


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## Isaacheus (Oct 12, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
> ...



While not exactly the same specs, this is pretty close to the d850 in many ways, so while I don't see it as that likely, if it came out at the same price as the 5dmk4 is now (3500?), and they dropped the 5dmk4 to say 2500, that would fit in nicely. 

The better autofocus than the 1dx2 I can't see happening, but the rest seems like it would quite do-able


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## C-A430 (Oct 12, 2017)

unfocused said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a prediction.
> ...



7D2 already has better high ISO performance than 80D. 7D3 > D500 > 7D2 > 80D/70D (same high-iso noise, 80D better low-iso DR)


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## jolyonralph (Oct 12, 2017)

C-A430 said:


> The real question, I believe, is: will the 5Ds and 7DIII all share essentially the same sensor with the 80D? Or, will it be a new sensor with very similar resolution? I would hope it is the latter, and Canon takes advantage of an additional two- to three-years of sensor development in the new bodies.



Not now, it's too late for that. Other than Rebels and low-end mirrorless we won't likely see any new cameras with that sensor.


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## tron (Oct 12, 2017)

In the imaginary case that 60Mp at 7fps seem reasonable (for the next year or two) I strongly counter-propose the 50Mp at 8fps combination. 60 vs 50 is nothing important resolution-wise but 8 fps is a serious advantage for wildlife/birding photography. Just my opinion/wish. It will not be granted anyway ;D


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## bholliman (Oct 12, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> If they even keep the pixel size the same but improve dynamic range and, most importantly, sensor throughput and write speed (ie frames per second) then it'd be a killer upgrade.
> 
> There have already been rumors that they'll offer a true crop mode (where the raw files are cropped and the sensor only pushes through the cropped area so framerate is much faster) which can only be done with on-chip ADC.



+1

I'm still very happy with my 5DsR. I'm not looking for more megapixals, but if they add on-chip ADC, improve throughput and write speed and add a tilt LCD w/touchscreen, I'll send Canon more of my money.


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## glness (Oct 12, 2017)

I realize everybody has different wants and needs out of a camera like this, but for my purposes—wildlife and landscape— I wouldn't care if the resolution stayed the same. I just want competitive DR, top-notch AF and double the FPS out of a new higher-megapixel camera. Give us something that can beat or stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Nikon D850. I have the 5DS R, 5D Mark IV, and 1DX. I don't want a 20-mp camera even at 14 fps (1DX Mark II) or an APS-C camera(7D Mark II or upcoming III) for wildlife. The 5D IV and 5DS R are great, but the Nikon D850 specs out so much better. Come on Canon—give nature photographers a super high-end option. How about playing leapfrog instead catch-up. I will pay the price for quality and innovation!


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2017)

glness said:


> I realize everybody has different wants and needs out of a camera like this, but for my purposes—wildlife and landscape— I wouldn't care if the resolution stayed the same. I just want competitive DR, top-notch AF and double the FPS out of a new higher-megapixel camera. Give us something that can beat or stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Nikon D850. I have the 5DS R, 5D Mark IV, and 1DX. I don't want a 20-mp camera even at 14 fps (1DX Mark II) or an APS-C camera(7D Mark II or upcoming III) for wildlife. The 5D IV and 5DS R are great, but the Nikon D850 specs out so much better. Come on Canon—give nature photographers a super high-end option. How about playing leapfrog instead catch-up. I will pay the price for quality and innovation!



A few thoughts:

1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?! It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument. I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig. Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.

2) I keep hearing the 5DS AF needs to be improved on this thread, and I'll continue to ask how a system largely identical to the 1DX1 / 5D3 is letting photographers down. I'm not saying you're incorrect here -- I'm looking for what's missing from your perspective. Do you want more points, better spread across the frame, better tracking, etc? (Again, I'm not dismissing your point -- I want to understand the deficiency better.)

3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument. I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R). But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps. 50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, _30 x 7 is_. I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model. We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2. We may never know.

- A


----------



## Larsskv (Oct 12, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> glness said:
> 
> 
> > I realize everybody has different wants and needs out of a camera like this, but for my purposes—wildlife and landscape— I wouldn't care if the resolution stayed the same. I just want competitive DR, top-notch AF and double the FPS out of a new higher-megapixel camera. Give us something that can beat or stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Nikon D850. I have the 5DS R, 5D Mark IV, and 1DX. I don't want a 20-mp camera even at 14 fps (1DX Mark II) or an APS-C camera(7D Mark II or upcoming III) for wildlife. The 5D IV and 5DS R are great, but the Nikon D850 specs out so much better. Come on Canon—give nature photographers a super high-end option. How about playing leapfrog instead catch-up. I will pay the price for quality and innovation!
> ...



With regards to AF. I think my 5Ds has very decent AF capabilities. Compared to the 1DXII however, the AF on the 5Ds feels a bit slow, especially in low light situations. I use the 1DXII a lot more than the 5Ds, and every time I pick up the 5Ds, it feels a bit slow and unresponsive. This makes the 1DXII much more inspiring to use.


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2017)

Larsskv said:


> With regards to AF. I think my 5Ds has very decent AF capabilities. Compared to the 1DXII however, the AF on the 5Ds feels a bit slow, especially in low light situations. I use the 1DXII a lot more than the 5Ds, and every time I pick up the 5Ds, it feels a bit slow and unresponsive. This makes the 1DXII much more inspiring to use.



So your Audi is a little sluggish while your Ferrari sings. Got it. 

- A


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## glness (Oct 12, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> glness said:
> 
> 
> > I realize everybody has different wants and needs out of a camera like this, but for my purposes—wildlife and landscape— I wouldn't care if the resolution stayed the same. I just want competitive DR, top-notch AF and double the FPS out of a new higher-megapixel camera. Give us something that can beat or stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Nikon D850. I have the 5DS R, 5D Mark IV, and 1DX. I don't want a 20-mp camera even at 14 fps (1DX Mark II) or an APS-C camera(7D Mark II or upcoming III) for wildlife. The 5D IV and 5DS R are great, but the Nikon D850 specs out so much better. Come on Canon—give nature photographers a super high-end option. How about playing leapfrog instead catch-up. I will pay the price for quality and innovation!
> ...



Thank you - A, I appreciate your response.

1) Your right! It hasn't been a first choice for wildlifers, but the problem is Canon doesn't have a high MP option for wildlife photographers and Nikon has had this for years with two superb options: First the 36-MP D810 and now the 45-MP D850 with up to 9 FPS (with battery grip). Maybe Canon needs two cameras here: one that competes with D850 and another high MP "studio" camera. If Nikon can presently get 9 FPS at 45 MP, I have to believe Canon can get 10 FPS or more at 50 MP by next year.

2) The AF on the 5DS R is very good. I think they would simply need to employ the AF that is already utilized on the 1DX II and it would be even better.

3) I agree. It seems that Canon doesn't want to offer this option. I can't understand why. With their new chip technology, their incredible lens selection, and resources as a market leader, they could excel. For decades, Canon has sold its brand as "Wildlife As Canon Sees It." I would think they would want to be the leader here, yet they seem to be conceding that ground to Nikon. When—not if—Sony completes its supertelephoto lens offerings, cameras like the A9 and probably the expected new A7RIII will most likely also be other compelling choices for wildlife photographers.


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## Sharlin (Oct 12, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> 3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument. I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R). But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps. 50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, _30 x 7 is_. I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model. We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2. We may never know.



I think the 5D4 suffers from only having a single DIGIC 6+. Still, its throughput is actually pretty much in line with historical trends. If anything, it's the x0D series that's falling behind a bit.

The thing with the 5Ds is that basically any nontrivial increase of resolution and fps makes the throughput jump to levels totally unprecedented in the Canon world. I tried a few different values and at 60Mpix, only a _really_ modest increase to 5.5fps made much sense given the trends. Of course it might be that this time Canon will surprise all of us, but that would be, as I said, totally unprecedented. (I also plotted my guesses for the 7D3 and the 90D: 24Mpix*12fps and 28Mpix*8fps respectively. Full data available here.)


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## Mikehit (Oct 12, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> A few thoughts:
> 
> 1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?! It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument. I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig. Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.
> 
> ...


When it comes discussion like this, people don't think about how a camera does or does not meet their needs because what they want to see is a spec sheet that is competitive with the competition. 

Even in this thread people have spoken about 'being competitive' as if merely matching the opposition is enough. On the 5DIV and 6DII threads how many times did we read "I don't use video myself but they have to include 4k". It almost becomes meaningless. 
Canon has always done what Canon does, yet people stay with them. Mixed messages or what?


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2017)

glness said:


> 1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?! It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument. I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig. Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.



I feel same as I said before for the D810 -- it was no wildlife camera. You might reel in great shots with it, but at 5 fps in FF, you will miss moments. But I'm seeing a trend here with both the D810 and D850 being referenced: it appears you value detail over FPS disproportionately to most wildlifers I've corresponded with. Most of them want detail of course, but value cleaner high ISO and higher FPS.

So your 'grass is greener' with the D850 comments make perfect sense for your needs. Thanks for clarifying.

- A


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## ahsanford (Oct 12, 2017)

Sharlin said:


> I think the 5D4 suffers from only having a single DIGIC 6+. Still, its throughput is actually pretty much in line with historical trends. If anything, it's the x0D series that's falling behind a bit.



Lovely chart -- thank you and bookmarked.

Yes, the 5D# gets one top-line DIGIC while the 7D# line and 5DS line -- two completely different animals at different price points -- warrant two. I have ranted about this many a time.

"The 7D line needs to burn through files to keep up with that shutter/mirror box, so it must get two!"

"But the 5DS can't just get one, it would only shoot 2-3 fps in that case. That's too slow!"

Yet the 5D line isn't afforded the same courtesy and the 5D4 now sits...

(only) 2.0 fps ahead of a high res behemoth in the 5DS
(only) 0.5 fps ahead of a $2k enthusiast FF rig
2.0 fps behind a direct competitor... _who is moving 50% more pixels to boot_
7-9 fps behind the next option up the FF chain

Surely, a 30 x 9 product -- likely requiring another chip -- would have better cemented the longer-term value of the 5D4 to the market and better positioned it vs. the 6D2 and 5DS. I still don't see that as a thread to 1DX2 sales.

But this is a 5DS thread. I'll rant no longer. 

- A


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## AlanF (Oct 12, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> glness said:
> 
> 
> > 1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?! It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument. I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig. Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.
> ...



It is not universally true that wildlifers go for higher FPS and cleaner high iso over detail. It depends in what they are interested. Art Morris, a doyen of bird photography, uses a 5DIV as he specialises in bird portraits. Ari Hazeghi specialises in BIF and uses a 1DXII but concedes the usefulness of the 5DIV. Like many, if not most birders 90% of my shots are portraits not BIF. Follow our Bird Portraits thread and see that very few of the shots there depend on high FPS. I grab my 5DSR when I want the best detail or have to pick out distant birds. I tend to use a 400mm DO II with or without extenders, and this is a game changer for choice of bodies. The bare prime on the 5DSR at f/4 gives as good resolution as the lens plus 1.4x extender on the 5DIV at f/5.6, and has 1 stop advantage in either iso or shutter speed. Similarly, the 5DSR at 560mm f/5.6 has better IQ than the 5DIV with 800mm at f/8, and 1-stop advantage. The 5DSR with the 100-400mm II gives better IQ than the 400mm prime on the 5DIV.


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## traveller (Oct 13, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> Sharlin said:
> 
> 
> > I think the 5D4 suffers from only having a single DIGIC 6+. Still, its throughput is actually pretty much in line with historical trends. If anything, it's the x0D series that's falling behind a bit.
> ...


You've hit the nail on the head. Had Canon done a little more with the 5D4 specs, they would have found positioning the 6D2 a lot easier. A 9-10fps 5D4 with a better video spec and extra 'goodies' that are a bit more useful than dual pixel raw has turned out to be, would also now be looking like a stronger proposition alongside the D850. 

The impact this will likely have on the 5DS2 is that Canon reused the 5D3 body for the 5DS(R) (with dual digic and a few minor mods), so that's what's likely to happen again with the 5DS2. Maybe they can at least fit a tilting screen (if not fully articulated, due to button positioning issues), but I'm not holding my breath. Items like a bigger viewfinder and newer storage media will likely have to wait until the 5D mark 5 generation. 

Personally, I think that this is all a little too slow and stodgy, but no doubt the sales figures will prove me wrong!


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## goldenhusky (Oct 13, 2017)

keithcooper said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
> ...



5D5 with 7fps would be outdated on day one but the speed at which Canon adopting technology lately. I would not be surprised what you said becomes true


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## goldenhusky (Oct 13, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> goldenhusky said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
> ...



Given what D850 is capable of and 5DsR is a $3900 body, to me what I wish for is a realistic ask. Note that I did not ask for any video features.


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## symmar22 (Oct 13, 2017)

I use my 5DSr for its originally intended purpose (studio, architecture, interiors) on a tripod in 95% of the time. The improvements I'd like to see are mainly in the sensor tech (on chip ADC that should clean up those shadows) and improvements on the DR side. Time to move on to modern sensors Canon !

I Thinks 50Mp is pretty decent already, for studio/tripod use one doesn't need many fancy features. I came to the conclusion that a swivel screen could be very useful in my case. As a bonus, faster cards (Cfast and UHS-2) are IMO a must.

Anything else would be just for the fun.

However, considering the competition from Nikon and Sony spec wise, I hope Canon feels a bit more uncomfortable than usually, and will this time release a camera with more than minor improvements. Nikon proved despite their financial problems that they can still deliver that kind of camera with the D850, and no doubt the Sony A7R3 (or A9R) will be impressive. 

The 6D2 was not so impressive, and IMO it was a very bad move from Canon to use a cheap sensor.

Competition in industry is the only way to move, as seen recently with the Intel / AMD struggle. Intel has been delivering the same CPU with minor updates since 6 or 7 years (that's a century in computer tech), claiming that they can't do better due to technical problems.
Last summer AMD released their excellent Ryzen series for half the price of their Intel equivalents.

As a result, Intel launched within 3 months a new i9 series to compete with the Ryzen, and finally offers CPU with more than 4 cores for the masses. They could have done it before, but they didn't, only competition forced them to move their butt. A big thanks to AMD to have unlocked the CPU race again, as I am very happy Nikon delivered such a nice camera.

Hopefully the Nikon D850 and the Sony A7R3 (A9R) will have the same effect on Canon's marketing strategy.


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 13, 2017)

Guess I'm going to disagree with the previous post. Ive the 5DS which I have used for wildlife in Africa, landscape and portraits both location & studio.
I don't use it on a tripod 95% of the time too restrictive for portrait shoots (I do at least two a month), I'm generally shooting with strobes so any un-sharp shots are pilot error and Ive been impressed with the 5DS for portraiture period. Last year I used it on Safari and my only real complaint was low light where the 6D did a much better job. However cropping retained so much more detail in birds (not in flight) as it did in animals that always seem closer than they actually were. 
For landscape again the detail has often blown me away compared to the 6D and in these shots I'm generally on a tripod. However weight is an issue particularly when carrying gear all day so I upgraded to the 6D MKII and the bump in resolutions far out weighs any perceived loss of dynamic range (which I don't believe it has over the 6D scientifically tested). Sure the 6D MKII did not advance dynamic range over the 6D but in every other sense its a better camera and I'm really appreciating the articulating screen in low tripod use so I'm a happy camper. The 5D MKIV (which I regularly borrow from work) sits somewhere in the middle of these two and if I could only afford one camera it would be the choice. When I say sits in the middle it has better dynamic range but not as much resolution as the 5DS and lacks the articulating screen of the 6D MKII and both at times mean something to me. The 1D X MKII is THE sports photographers and News photographers choice and for good reason
This says something about Canon that they have provided this nuanced choice and any decision is a balanced one we never get everything we want in a single camera but the same is true in much more expensive high end movie cameras. 

As to a MKII 5DS/r. Better low light performance with less noise has to be the No.1 goal as is any overall improvement in dynamic range at least matching the 5D MKIV on which it will almost certainly share much with. Other than that only a slight MP jump as we should not forget its not simply the camera but system performance meaning the lenses as well.


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## Maiaibing (Oct 13, 2017)

AlanF said:


> I grab my 5DSR when I want the best detail or have to pick out distant birds. I tend to use a 400mm DO II with or without extenders, and this is a game changer for choice of bodies. The bare prime on the 5DSR at f/4 gives as good resolution as the lens plus 1.4x extender on the 5DIV at f/5.6, and has 1 stop advantage in either iso or shutter speed. Similarly, the 5DSR at 560mm f/5.6 has better IQ than the 5DIV with 800mm at f/8, and 1-stop advantage. *The 5DSR with the 100-400mm II gives better IQ than the 400mm prime on the 5DIV.
> *


Exactly, pixels win. And it matters in real life photography.


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## RGF (Oct 13, 2017)

glness said:


> 1) Your right! It hasn't been a first choice for wildlifers, but the problem is Canon doesn't have a high MP option for wildlife photographers and Nikon has had this for years with two superb options: First the 36-MP D810 and now the 45-MP D850 with up to 9 FPS (with battery grip). Maybe Canon needs two cameras here: one that competes with D850 and another high MP "studio" camera. If Nikon can presently get 9 FPS at 45 MP, I have to believe Canon can get 10 FPS or more at 50 MP by next year.



You will need more than FPS, you need buffer. The IDx M2 is a spoiler. Basically unlimited buffer. Okay perhaps not unlimited but a reasonable sized buffer than clears quickly. The first will require more RAM, the second may be harder without a CFast card.


----------



## infared (Oct 14, 2017)

Sharlin said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > 3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument. I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R). But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps. 50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, _30 x 7 is_. I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model. We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2. We may never know.
> ...



I like my 5DIV....the shutter speed is ok with me...I do not shoot a lot of sports and if I do I have a mirrorless that I shoot with a lot of the time that has incredible burst but smaller image capture.......but I think there is validity to your thinking for a 2nd processor..
...but Canon is never one to WOW me...for the most part...they have always been restrained. That is why I am not on the edge of my seat for their possibly 3 new FF mirrorless cameras. I am not expecting to be WOWed...but ya never know. 
I would be happy if Canon had just done a simple thing...offered the 5DIV with and without AA filter.
I know it is something small...but it would make a difference for larger prints.
Backlit keys would be a very nice little perk as I do shoot a lot of Astro. I do not need a huge magapixel camera ...Canon was right when they put the 5DIV together for me. The "all rounder" approach works.
It's a great time to be a photographer and there are many great machines to pick from. It's pretty cool.


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## Jopa (Oct 16, 2017)

symmar22 said:


> I use my 5DSr for its originally intended purpose (studio, architecture, interiors) on a tripod in 95% of the time.



The 5dsr has less "APS-C" megapixels compared to the 80d, you can definitely use it off a tripod.



symmar22 said:


> The improvements I'd like to see are mainly in the sensor tech (_on chip ADC that should clean up those shadows_) and _improvements on the DR side_.



I think you just asked the same thing twice?


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## Jopa (Oct 16, 2017)

Does 20% bump mean it's going to be the 80d sensor projected to FF?


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## Hflm (Oct 16, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> glness said:
> 
> 
> > 1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?! It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument. I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig. Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.
> ...



There was a poll at Thom Hogan's blog regarding a new Nikon camera (before the D850 came out). How that transfers to Canon is an open question, but I could image the distribution is similar:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/survey-says.html .

The percentage wanting a D5x-type body isn't that large (1.29%) compared to a D500-like body (16%). Canon certainly does similar polls and this will greatly influence the specs of the new body.


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