# The Future of the Flash? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 18, 2011)

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<p><strong>New Flash system in late 2011/early 2012

</strong>Canon going radio trigger wireless?</p>
<p>That’s the latest bit of info sent this weekend.</p>
<p>Canon will release a new flagship flash, as well as a replacement to the 580 EX II.</p>
<p>The flagship flash will have new features unseen in a Canon Speedlite before. No word on whether or not it would have some video features.</p>
<p>The ST-E2 will remain current, however a new radio trigger will be launched alongside the flashes.<strong></p>
<p></strong>First time submission, so take it with a grain of salt.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## kubelik (Jul 18, 2011)

radio system that works with legacy IR would be pretty sweet, especially if it also bumps up the power from the 580s ... having constant lighting for video would be very cool as well, especially if it actually comes from the main lamp position, rather than another LED embedded below the main flash housing.


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## idigi (Jul 18, 2011)

Well, it ought to be CR2 by now. We've heard about it in April: http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/04/video-flash-nab-more/ ; then, in May: http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/05/radio-in-new-canon-flashes-cr2/

It's about time for Canon to release that new flash


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## shima (Jul 18, 2011)

There is only one feature I'm so so much missing with the 580 II: A battery indicator...


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## Bob Howland (Jul 18, 2011)

As somebody who owns four 550EX flashes used as slaves to a 580EX2, I very much hope that Canon introduces a small and cheap interface module that can be attached to the foot of a slave and allow it to be used with a new flash system.

Also, there is a "low energy" version of Bluetooth that seems custom designed for this application: low power requirements, fairly low data rates and low latency.


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## V8Beast (Jul 18, 2011)

Radio triggering is long overdue in an OE Canon flash. I'll buy three or four of these suckers if they become a reality. The mere existence of devices like Radio Poppers and Pocket Wizards proves that the demand is there. The TTL metering with the current Speedlites works very well, IMHO, but the line-of-sight and range limitations of the infrared interface is a major hassle in the field. Just like IS lenses meant that it was no longer necessary to invest in a third-party gyro stabilizer, I hope a new generation of radio Canon flashes means we won't have to spend big bucks on third-party triggers like Radio Popppers anymore.


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## J-Man (Jul 18, 2011)

I agree,long over due!!!
The system would have to be robust and easy to use, with at least 3 zones, otherwise I'll stick with my PW's.


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## gmrza (Jul 18, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> As somebody who owns four 550EX flashes used as slaves to a 580EX2, I very much hope that Canon introduces a small and cheap interface module that can be attached to the foot of a slave and allow it to be used with a new flash system.
> 
> Also, there is a "low energy" version of Bluetooth that seems custom designed for this application: low power requirements, fairly low data rates and low latency.



The idea of a radio receiver for existing flash units would make sense for most of us who have existing E-TTL2 Speedlites. I just fear that it may not make sense for Canon, who would like to sell us new Speedlites!

Given the cost of Pocketwizards, there is little commercial incentive for Canon to build a receiver for existing Speedlite users.


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## kawasakiguy37 (Jul 18, 2011)

Canon better do this, because Nikon definitely will. The only problem I see is not being compatible with third party flashes (unless they release their own receivers). Id hate to have to use two systems for my PCB lights + speedlights....


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## NXT1000 (Jul 19, 2011)

yeah it is about time they build a next gen flash, 
one that use lithum ion battery, much like the one on their dslr. 
where is the zoom function that cover 24-200mm? 
what about build in one touch diffuser so that we do not have to put some tuppleware on top of it and look funny and unbalance. 
what about using carbon fiber to make it strong and light, what about solving the problem that shooting portait, the flash make ugly shadow on left and right, much like sony solution, not the best, but better than nothing. flash head can bend from very far away from lens to close to lens, like mechanical snake.
and what about making one without battery, taking power from the dslr, in emergency or for people who want light flash. 
what about flash with built in gps. 

i honestly do not expect much from canon flash engineers, the history of canon flash is not one of innovation and excellent. i expect the third party to innovate and bring flash to the next level.


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## Edwin Herdman (Jul 19, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> Also, there is a "low energy" version of Bluetooth that seems custom designed for this application: low power requirements, fairly low data rates and low latency.


Huh, BLE ("Bluetooth low energy") mode only has a 6ms claimed latency time. That should be fast enough.


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## CatfishSoupFTW (Jul 19, 2011)

oh great... i had plans on getting the 580ex II but now with this info, i dont know anymore. I will need it for a job coming in the next few months.. D: maybe i will just rent until then.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 19, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> As somebody who owns four 550EX flashes used as slaves to a 580EX2, I very much hope that Canon introduces a small and cheap interface module that can be attached to the foot of a slave and allow it to be used with a new flash system.
> 
> Also, there is a "low energy" version of Bluetooth that seems custom designed for this application: low power requirements, fairly low data rates and low latency.




I'm not sure what you intended here? Bluetooth range is very limited, not the several huindred feet needed. Bluetooth latency in actual practice is also a concern, the rated but never quite achieved 6ms (more than 1/200 sec) would seem to be a big issue as well.


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## anthony11 (Jul 19, 2011)

_Canon will release a new flagship flash, as well as a replacement to the 580 EX II._

As well as? This is written as though the 580 EX II isn't the (surprisingly weak) flagship now.


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## Bob Howland (Jul 19, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > As somebody who owns four 550EX flashes used as slaves to a 580EX2, I very much hope that Canon introduces a small and cheap interface module that can be attached to the foot of a slave and allow it to be used with a new flash system.
> ...



According to the Wikipedia page on Bluetooth Low Energy, the range is 200M or about 660 feet. The 6ms latency is from an unconnected state and I think that a master flash/camera and slave flash will be "connected" most of the time. Also, 6ms is considerably shorter than most pro camera's shutter lag (40ms for the Nikon D3s and 55ms for the 1DMk4) and a motor driven camera at 10FPS will have a time between shots of 100ms. 

Incidentally, the Wikipedia page is considerably more informative than bluetooth.com. If you have a better source please let us know about it.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 19, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Howland said:
> ...



I hope it happens, but I believe that a 15M range is what we will see, not 200m. *Wikipedia had 50m in two spots and 200m range in another, just pick the one you want to believe!*
From wikipedia:
Bluetooth low energy (BLE) is a feature of Bluetooth 4.0 wireless radio technology, aimed at new, principally low-power and low-latency, applications for wireless devices[1] within a short range (Up to 50 meters / 160ft  -see table below). This facilitates a wide range of applications and smaller form factor devices in the healthcare, fitness, security and home entertainment industries.

There are no actual BLE products yet, but Bluetooth ver 2 was supposed to have a 30m range, but in the real world, 10 meters is the best I've seen, so i would expect no more than 15 m if 50m is the max possible range.

As for a 200m range, there are two mentions of 50m, and one of 200m in the article. as the spec options are defined.

I would still be concerned about latency, particularly any variation in latency, a 0.1ms variation would be a failure.

A 55 ms lag time in shutter opening is a red herring, it does not lag the signal to the flash unit by 55ms. The EX580 II flash durations are given below. Do you believe that the signal is sent to the flash 55ms before the shutter opens?? With a typical 0.1ms duration, the flash would fire 54.9 ms before the shutter opens.



1/1 power = 1/1000 second
1/2 power = 1/2000
1/4 power = 1/4000
1/8 power = 1/9000
1/16 power = 1/15000
1/32 power = 1/21000
1/64 power = 1/30000
1/128 power = 1/35000


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## Bob Howland (Jul 19, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Bob Howland said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



I never noticed the 50M range mentioned, so I guess we'll have to wait and see. As for variation in latency, we seem to be making different assumptions about how the communications channel would work. I am assuming that the master strobe/camera and the slave flash(es) will be in more-or-less constant communication, perhaps establishing a communication session when the shutter is first pressed. (That's where the latency comes into play.) The master would have to give the slave(s) two types of information: (1) setup and (2) fire/stop firing. The application data rate is 0.26Mbps which means that each bit has a duration of 3.85usec. If we assume that the setup information is a 256-bit word (it could be shorter), that word would last 492usec. If we assume that the fire and stop-fire commands are both 32-bit words (they also could be much shorter), then their duration is 123usec. That is slightly less than 1/8000 sec. It seems like there is lots of time to do what needs to be done.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 20, 2011)

Bob Howland said:


> It seems like there is lots of time to do what needs to be done.



Bob, I hear you, but I'm a doubter.

I do hope that BLE takes off and has good range. I want it built into my hearing aid!


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## ianhar (Aug 24, 2011)

any update on the new flash system?


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## hhelmbold (Aug 24, 2011)

> Canon better do this, because Nikon definitely will. The only problem I see is not being compatible with third party flashes (unless they release their own receivers). Id hate to have to use two systems for my PCB lights + speedlights....



I don't think Nikon will... they already have  Unfortunately I have to admit that Nikon is definately ahead in the Speedlight war... BUT Nikon's SB-900 has been out for quite some time and Canon can only improve on this.

In a way I must actually say that I don't mind a new Canon speedlight NOT being compatible with older versions, if it means we'll get a new amazing technology that works really well, whatever it would be. With time there will be 3rd party vendors making some kind of trigger that will make it compatible.


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## patz (Oct 2, 2011)

If they're going to use radio trigger wireless in the new flash, does it mean there won't be remote shutter release button which feature in 230ex ii and 380ex?

I want 430ex flash with remote shutter release button feature. I don't want to buy RC1 or RC6. Should I wait til next year? When do they usually announce new stuff? and How much can we trust the news source?

Thanks a lot.


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## dr croubie (Oct 2, 2011)

patz said:


> If they're going to use radio trigger wireless in the new flash, does it mean there won't be remote shutter release button which feature in 230ex ii and 380ex?
> 
> I want 430ex flash with remote shutter release button feature. I don't want to buy RC1 or RC6. Should I wait til next year? When do they usually announce new stuff? and How much can we trust the news source?
> 
> Thanks a lot.



I don't see why you don't want an RC-6, best $20 i've ever spent, and not much bigger than a $1 coin or two. And you can't really use the flash-as-remote and flash-as-flash at the same time for self-portraits, unless you're damn quick in repositioning it (or yourself) after pressing the button.
Still, if you take that into account (or shoot things like macro where you need a remote release and flash) it could still save you $20.

Not sure if there's a regular pattern with flashes, the 320 and 270v2 only just came out, i'd guess the 580v3 (or 600+?) would be announced with a new 1D/5D body.
The 430 was June 05, 430v2 June 08, so it's "due" for replacement this year, but everything's been changed around a bit lately, so you might be waiting a while. 580v2 is just as old, maybe the replacements for both will get announced at the same time (with radio release? inbuilt in next 1D line?)


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## patz (Oct 2, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> I don't see why you don't want an RC-6, best $20 i've ever spent, and not much bigger than a $1 coin or two. And you can't really use the flash-as-remote and flash-as-flash at the same time for self-portraits, unless you're damn quick in repositioning it (or yourself) after pressing the button.
> Still, if you take that into account (or shoot things like macro where you need a remote release and flash) it could still save you $20.


I'm using 600D. I thought if I set up the wireless, when I press the the remote shutter release button (on the flash like 320ex) it will trigger the camera to shoot the picture. The slave flash (same 320ex) will also fire the flash. That's why I though buying only an ext flash which has remote shutter release function would be enough. 

When do Canon usually announce their new stuff? If it's Jan or Feb, I think I can wait.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 2, 2011)

NXT1000 said:


> yeah it is about time they build a next gen flash,
> one that use lithum ion battery, much like the one on their dslr.



First, a high power fast discharge lithium battery has to be invented, and engineers have been unsuccessful doing it for several years now. 

A powerful flash requires a high current to get a fast recycle time. Its ok if you don't mind several seconds between flashes, and a low powered flash, but not for a professional level high powered flash with rapid recharge.

Its nice to criticise a company for not inventing a flash with a non-existennt battery, invent one and you will be rich overnight.

This is one of the things that also makes electric cars powered by lithium-Ion batteries expensive. They must put a large number of expensive batteries in parallel to get the high current rates.

I could just hear the cries when a flash that needed six of those $100 camera batteries in parallel came out.


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## dr croubie (Oct 3, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> First, a high power fast discharge lithium battery has to be invented, and engineers have been unsuccessful doing it for several years now.
> This is one of the things that also makes electric cars powered by lithium-Ion batteries expensive. They must put a large number of expensive batteries in parallel to get the high current rates.



Actually, i've worked with electric cars (more specifically, the chargers for them), and the batteries are all in series, not parallel. The cells are 2.5-3.5 volts or so, in series to make a 12V battery, in series to make about 350-400V or so in the car. Only the cells are made of a few batteries in parallel, think of how many you can fit in 1/4 of a 12V car-sized battery.
Take one 12V battery, and its short-circuit current is about 4000 Amperes. As in, don't drop your spanner, you won't find it again. Or your arm. (Ask a guy called Peter from Valence about that).

There's also different types of batteries. Lithium, Lithium Ion, Lithium Polymer.
Lithium are what your normal AA batteries are, non rechargeable, and probably 20-30 different flavours of chemical inside.
Lithium Ion is what's in your mobile phone. High internal resistance makes for useless in flashes. Only paralleling a few of them into a 3V cell (then seriesing them into a 12V car-sized battery) works for current cars like the Miev and Leaf, but it ain't the best solution.
Lithium Ion-Polymer are the next gen, and stupidly expensive, but they'll be in the next lot of cars once tech improves and the price comes down.

hmmm, back to flashes? problem is, the way they're built right now is with 4xAA batteries in series to make 6V. Put Lithium-* batteries in there, and the recycle will be too slow, they only work as well as the weakest cell, unless they're all together in one pack, with a BMS and can self-balance when they charge.
It *is* possible to make a custom-sized battery pack (like in your camera), even making them 2V or 3V and parallel for higher current, but then you lose the ability to use AA cells, and you'd definitely have to increase the smarts in the flash to monitor the charge level, and you'd pretty much have to bring a spare to any semi-important shoot...


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