# Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 23, 2014)

```
<div style="float: right; margin:0 0 76px 0px;"><a href="https://twitter.com/share" class="twitter-share-button" data-count="vertical" data-url="http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/08/update-on-the-eos-7d-mark-ii-spec-list/">Tweet</a></div>
<p>We’re going over the information we have and have noticed a few inconsistencies that we’d like to mention. We have a bit of doubt about the sensor spec we’ve listed for the camera and will work to confirm that. There is a possibility that it’s an all new 20.2MP sensor and not the same one as the EOS 70D.</p>
<ul>
<li>We’re not 100% sure about GPS, we think the camera may actually have it.</li>
<li>We mentioned radio triggering with the popup flash, but that may have been a mistake.</li>
<li>“Fine Detail CMOS Sensor” is standard Canon language for Canon sensors.</li>
<li>The camera has iTR (metering sensor-assisted servo tracking) just like the EOS-1D X</li>
<li>The camera should be compatible with f/8 lenses at the center, and maybe more points.</li>
</ul>
<p><em>Lots more to come….</em></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Diltiazem (Aug 23, 2014)

Makes sense.
I am pretty sure the camera will have Wifi and GPS.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 23, 2014)

Diltiazem said:


> Makes sense.
> I am pretty sure the camera will have Wifi and GPS.



I'm 99% sure the camera will not have wifi built-in.


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## Diltiazem (Aug 23, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> Diltiazem said:
> 
> 
> > Makes sense.
> ...


That will disappoint many.
I will be happy if its IQ is close to and AF is same as my 5DIII.


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## Don Haines (Aug 23, 2014)

What I find interesting is having an RT flash trigger and not having WiFi. They both use the same band and if the antenna works for one, it works for the other..... It just seems wrong to me.....


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## Diltiazem (Aug 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> What I find interesting is having an RT flash trigger and not having WiFi. They both use the same band and if the antenna works for one, it works for the other..... It just seems wrong to me.....



But the update says it won't have RT flash trigger.


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## Marauder (Aug 23, 2014)

•The camera has iTR (metering sensor-assisted servo tracking) just like the EOS-1D X
•The camera should be compatible with f/8 lenses at the center, and maybe more points.


All right!!! ;D


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## NancyP (Aug 23, 2014)

f/8 center point! Usable 1.4x (for f/5.6 lens) and 2x (for f/4 lens) teleconverters! 
I am having a little fun watching the rumors and fantasizing, though the 60D sitting next to my computer may feel a bit threatened. (Sensor filter surgery planned for some future date - Astro extended range H band sensitive, or full spectrum?).


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## Canon1 (Aug 23, 2014)

I'm sure canon will produce a stellar camera on all features except sensor. It's possible that the sensor is something new and revolutionary, but this is te one piece that really matters. This could either be a game changer like I believe the 5d3 was... Or it could just be a hyped up 70d. I'm hoping for the former, as I am looking for a great camera to pair with my current 5d3. 8)


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## Lee Jay (Aug 23, 2014)

24MP is better. 6000x4000 pixels just works better with my sense of mathematical beauty!

Come on, Canon, I'm tired of 3504 and 4368 pixel sensors. Heck, my compacts are 4000x3000!


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## Lee Jay (Aug 23, 2014)

What about a hybrid viewfinder for video? What about variable windowing or at least 1:1 crop more in video?


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## Keith_Reeder (Aug 23, 2014)

Canon1 said:


> but this is the one piece that really matters.



Nope.

I'd be as happy as a clam to have this camera built round the 70D's sensor (which despite all the general whining about "crappy" Canon sensors, produces _excellent_ quality files for _this_ wildlife/sport photographer - exactly the target audience for the new camera).


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## outofmyelement (Aug 23, 2014)

it just better have a new sensor


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## jseibertz (Aug 23, 2014)

Hello,
first of all, I take my Pictures with 5D MKII and MK III and owner of 7 L-lenses. During the last 2 years I did an update of my Equipment for more than 15.000 € now. Two years ago I considered to change to Nikon due to the innovations they presented with e.g. D800 or D800E especially the high resolution of the sensors. This based on the fact that I sell my pictures as prints and build up a Business with stock photos. Aside the Picture itself the technical data and expected resolutions continuously rising. At that time I thought Canon will follow Nikon and Sony and also be more innovativ.

Today I´m angry about my decision. The reasons are:
- No high resolution sensors with a quality like Nikon
- Arrogance of Canon in their behaviour with their Clients
- Price policy for new II-lenses

The high resolution and the quality of Nikon and Sony shows that this is not a game and that
high resolutions doesn´t mean low quality at low light Images.

Fact is that I will check again how much I will get for my current Canon Equipment and than I will decide if 
to switchover to Nikon

regards
Juergen


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

jseibertz said:


> Hello,
> first of all, I take my Pictures with 5D MKII and MK III and owner of 7 L-lenses. During the last 2 years I did an update of my Equipment for more than 15.000 € now. Two years ago I considered to change to Nikon due to the innovations they presented with e.g. D800 or D800E especially the high resolution of the sensors. This based on the fact that I sell my pictures as prints and build up a Business with stock photos. Aside the Picture itself the technical data and expected resolutions continuously rising. At that time I thought Canon will follow Nikon and Sony and also be more innovativ.
> 
> Today I´m angry about my decision. The reasons are:
> ...



H and G.


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## Joe M (Aug 23, 2014)

Ah. These seem a little more sensible. I wonder if RT control in-camera is even possible and if so, maybe they'll hold it off until the next 5D. I guess that would cut into sales of the transmitter though.


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## LuCoOc (Aug 23, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> jseibertz said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Could not have said it better (or shorter).

I am 100% sure the 7D will be an impressive camera. Probably like the 5D III an outstanding all arounder just with a crop sensor. Everyone who expects a sensor revolution with results better or only even close to current Canon FF-cameras will be disappointed.
Just as the current 7D this will be the only camera serious amateurs with a need for speed want. Everyone who needs top of the line IQ will get the 6D and those with deep pockets will reach for the 5D line.


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## mjbehnke (Aug 23, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> jseibertz said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...


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## jseibertz (Aug 23, 2014)

Think you are right mj, but that´s the game. 
In Germany a lot of professional photographers Change to Sony


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## East Wind Photography (Aug 23, 2014)

I really have a good chuckle at everyone ready to jump ship to Nikon over rumors and lack of innovation. I for one just want a camera that works until I choose to upgrade and that is why I chose Canon.

I know many other professionals that have gone with Nikon and switched to Canon because their equipment had become unreliable and those failures cost them big $$$...and I'm not talking about the gear.

There is a cost to pushing the envelope constantly. Canon strives to produce quality gear that wont fail when you need it most. Sure occasionally there are issues, but I hear far less griping from the Canon pros than I do from the Nikon pros. This is apparent due to Canon's lead in the market share. 

Regardless of the sensor, the 7D2 will be a much improved model and from a reliability standpoint there is no comparison between Canon and Nikon.


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## Clyde2014 (Aug 23, 2014)

Funny , all this fuss about a consumer camera . Dreamers discuss specs on plastic consumer cameras like the 7d, Real photographers just buy the pro body , ie. the Canon 1dx . Nuff said


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## Lee Jay (Aug 23, 2014)

Clyde2014 said:


> Funny , all this fuss about a consumer camera . Dreamers discuss specs on plastic consumer cameras like the 7d, Real photographers just buy the pro body , ie. the Canon 1dx . Nuff said



What a dumb thing to say.

The 7D and the 1D series have about the same ratio of plastic to metal (it's pretty high, actually).

I know lots of pros who will not use the 1D series because of the idiotic built-in grip.

The 7D will crush the 1Dx when it comes to focal length or magnification limited situations.


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## moreorless (Aug 23, 2014)

I'd argue that with a camera like this matching Nikon's pixel count at doesn't matter as much simply because its pixel density that's likely key for a lot of users, 20 MP at a 1.6 crop factor is pretty similar to 24 MP at a 1.5 crop factor.

Some new kind of sensor never seemed likely to me, especially given that multi layer sensors have traditionally had poor higher ISO performance.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2014)

jseibertz said:


> In Germany a lot of professional photographers Change to Sony



In Podunk, Michigan a lot of professional photographers have switched to watercolors and canvas. I expect that'll have about the same impact on Canon's market share.


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## aclectasis (Aug 23, 2014)

CR: "Hey, you know every slightly odd thing we said about 7DII? We are going to say the opposite now. If we're wrong, we're right"

-Kings of making a living getting webpage hits


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## crashpc (Aug 23, 2014)

aclectasis said:


> CR: "Hey, you know every slightly odd thing we said about 7DII? We are going to say the opposite now. If we're wrong, we're right"
> 
> -Kings of making a living getting webpage hits



Lol yes. CR totally looses it today


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## Don Haines (Aug 23, 2014)

Diltiazem said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > What I find interesting is having an RT flash trigger and not having WiFi. They both use the same band and if the antenna works for one, it works for the other..... It just seems wrong to me.....
> ...


Sorry, I was typing on a phone and lost the last sentence.... Which was "with the revised specs, not having either makes more sense"


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## Canon1 (Aug 23, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Canon1 said:
> 
> 
> > but this is the one piece that really matters.
> ...



This wildlife photographer has a lower tolerance for shadow noise and low detail at high ISO. I primarily shoot in low light at the bookends of the day. I'm rarely below ISO 1000, which is why I have only been shooting full frame cameras. It would be great to have the specs listed here paired with a great high ISO crop sensor. The 70d is a fine camera (and sensor) but really only shines in good light.... Of which I rarely find myself in. ;-)


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## jrista (Aug 23, 2014)

Marauder said:


> •The camera has iTR (metering sensor-assisted servo tracking) just like the EOS-1D X
> •The camera should be compatible with f/8 lenses at the center, and maybe more points.
> 
> 
> All right!!! ;D



Alrighty. Those are some good specs. I'll be really happy if Canon pushes the nicer metering system of the 1D X down the line. It's about time we all got access to that full RGB high res metering and tracking system.


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## MichaelHodges (Aug 23, 2014)

Canon1 said:


> This wildlife photographer has a lower tolerance for shadow noise and low detail at high ISO. I primarily shoot in low light at the bookends of the day. I'm rarely below ISO 1000, which is why I have only been shooting full frame cameras. It would be great to have the specs listed here paired with a great high ISO crop sensor. The 70d is a fine camera (and sensor) but really only shines in good light.... Of which I rarely find myself in. ;-)




I do like my 70D, and it's a big jump up from the 7D in IQ. But your point stands. For crepuscular shooting, there's no point in using APS-C.


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## schmidtfilme (Aug 23, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> What about a hybrid viewfinder for video? What about variable windowing or at least 1:1 crop more in video?



Actually that s what I hope for. Some say we might get a evf that can be mounted on the flash shoe. But then I ask myself where the mic goes?


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## PureClassA (Aug 23, 2014)

We won't know anything until it gets... here's my point
From CanonWatch.com today.....

"Another email from a good source. The rumor contradicts parts of the latest supposed spec list that surfaced a few days ago.

That’s what I have been told:

the EOS 7D replacement will feature a 24MP sensor (no mention if it is a new sensor tech, or not)
a new generation of Dual Pixel CMOS AF is implemented thru the sensor and via the increased CPU power of the EOS 7D replacement
the auto-focus system of the EOS 5D Mark III will be on board
GPS and WiFi will be on board
still not sure if it will be named “EOS 7D Mark II”
Thanks to the source, please send in more information if you can!"


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## Don Haines (Aug 23, 2014)

PureClassA said:


> We won't know anything until it gets... here's my point
> From CanonWatch.com today.....
> 
> "Another email from a good source. The rumor contradicts parts of the latest supposed spec list that surfaced a few days ago.
> ...


+1

The "confirmed" rumours say that it will have:
a 20.2Mp sensor and a 24Mp sensor that is somehow both new technology and the same as the 70D
It will have WiFi and it wont
It will have GPS and it wont
It will have an RT controller and it wont
It will be 10 or 12 FPS
It will have a built in flash and it wont
It will have a CF slot, a dual CF slot, and a mixed CD and SD slot (That's a lot of cards!)
It will have a fixed screen and an articulated screen
It will have a touchscreen and it will not
It will have 65 AF points, 45 AF points, and 19 AF points
It will have a 1DX top plate and it will not

and last but not least, it will be called the 7D2, the 7DX, or something else entirely....

Way to go nailing down those specifications!


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## Gary Irwin (Aug 23, 2014)

_"There is a possibility that it’s an all new 20.2MP sensor and not the same one as the EOS 70D."_

Gee, I didn't realize 20.2 MP was some kind of magic number when it came to camera sensors. 

New supporting faster/better processors and/or firmware able to provide better results? Ok. But an all new sensor that happens to match the 20.2 MP used in the 70D? Sorry...that's a stretch.


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## Azathoth (Aug 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> It will have 65 AF points, 45 AF points, and 19 AF points



129 AF points? Not bad, Canon.


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## PureClassA (Aug 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > We won't know anything until it gets... here's my point
> ...




As you can opaquely yet clearly see by being blind with two working eyes... the new Canon/Nikon/Sony/Pentax/Minolta/Olympus/Fuji/Sigma/Manfrotto/Red/BlackMagic/JVC/Walgreens Micro 4/3rds Mirrorless DSLR Subway sandwich will have f***ing EVERYTHING


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## Don Haines (Aug 23, 2014)

PureClassA said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...


Except NO APS-H sensor!!!!!!!

wait a minute....

what about that 120Mpixel APS-H sensor.......

We need to start another rumour.......


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## Ruined (Aug 23, 2014)

Word is the 7D2 will have a removable LCD screen that can double as a smartwatch.


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## bseitz234 (Aug 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> > snip
> 
> 
> Except NO APS-H sensor!!!!!!!
> ...


Like!


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## PureClassA (Aug 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
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## Diltiazem (Aug 23, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > We won't know anything until it gets... here's my point
> ...



It is fun doing the speculations. ;D
I didn't know there were two versions of 70D, one with Wifi and the other without. 
http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/280/28070D135_DL.PDF
Maybe 7DII will have two versions too and that maybe the source of some confusions.


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## wsmith96 (Aug 24, 2014)

Ruined said:


> Word is the 7D2 will have a removable LCD screen that can double as a smartwatch.



It's also a transformer so that the kiddos can have something to play with on long trips.


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## DominoDude (Aug 24, 2014)

Azathoth said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > It will have 65 AF points, 45 AF points, and 19 AF points
> ...



The good thing is that all of those AF points will be stacked on top of each other at the center of the viewfinder to satisfy the desire of those who only need the centerpoint.


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## Tugela (Aug 24, 2014)

LuCoOc said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jseibertz said:
> ...



My needs are to shoot both video and stills, and have everything compact enough to carry the camera and lenses in my backpack. For future proofing my work I require 4K video capability as a minimum in any new equipment, and I am surprised that anyone would have a lesser standard.

Right now no Canon camera meets my requirements, nor it does not like any will in the foreseeable future. It seems pretty clear that Canon do not understand the video needs of the users interested in imaging as opposed those only interested in taking stills or video. So, migration to a more forward thinking manufacturer seems like the best bet for my next equipment upgrade.


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## Woody (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Way to go nailing down those specifications!



;D ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Right now no Canon camera meets my requirements, nor it does not like any will in the foreseeable future. It seems pretty clear that Canon do not understand the video needs of the users interested in imaging as opposed those only interested in taking stills or video.



Doesn't understand...or understands quite well but has decided potential buyers with your specific needs don't constitute a fraction of the market significant enough to be worth the expenditures to meet those needs. 

I'd bet it's the latter...


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## DominoDude (Aug 24, 2014)

I hear that the boys over at Red is expecting a huge upswing of sales of the Epic Dragon. Must be that they are able to deliver all the video and stills capacity that is needed, and people don't even need to dump their L lenses.


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Right now no Canon camera meets my requirements, nor it does not like any will in the foreseeable future. It seems pretty clear that Canon do not understand the video needs of the users interested in imaging as opposed those only interested in taking stills or video.
> ...


There is a third possibility...

To do 4K right requires 4 times the computing power as 2K video. That makes a lot of heat and drains batteries fast... and there is a real possibility that the problems with dissipating the heat make it impractical in a DSLR body unless you add in heatsinks, and that is a negative to all those using it for stills. Obviously, a 1D-C has the thermal mass, battery capacity, and radiative surface to handle this, but does a smaller body?

BTW, a 1D-C at 4K 24fps writes data at 4GB per minute. That is a sustained rate of 67MB per second of Mpeg... not RAW... That's a lot of data in a hurry!


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> There is a third possibility...
> 
> To do 4K right requires 4 times the computing power as 2K video. That makes a lot of heat and drains batteries fast... and there is a real possibility that the problems with dissipating the heat make it impractical in a DSLR body unless you add in heatsinks, and that is a negative to all those using it for stills. Obviously, a 1D-C has the thermal mass, battery capacity, and radiative surface to handle this, but does a smaller body?



Does the Panasonic GH4 not do 4K right? It certainly doesn't have a large thermal mass or space for big heat sinks inside.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 24, 2014)

So basically we have no clue whatsoever.


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > There is a third possibility...
> ...


Good point, but what does it use to process the video.... discrete hardware or software? I wonder how much heat the digic chips on a Canon make running that hard..... 

Even a GoPro will shoot 4K at 15fps and not overheat, but they definitely use dedicated hardware.


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> So basically we have no clue whatsoever.


BINGO! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > We won't know anything until it gets... here's my point
> ...



yeah +1

I think sources have been shut down. You used to be able to get something useful.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



They do and if they can, so can anyone else.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> jseibertz said:
> 
> 
> > In Germany a lot of professional photographers Change to Sony
> ...



ROFLMAO ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


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## Stu_bert (Aug 24, 2014)

DominoDude said:


> I hear that the boys over at Red is expecting a huge upswing of sales of the Epic Dragon. Must be that they are able to deliver all the video and stills capacity that is needed, and people don't even need to dump their L lenses.



If you have a spare 20K to spare....


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## Stu_bert (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



GH4 has a smaller sensor IIRC....
Gigabyte switches do not consume 4x more power than a 100Mb switch I believe.
Each generation of Intel chip does more with less power.

I'm not sure therefore that the 4x increase in data bandwidth equates to significantly more power, but I might be wrong


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## Stu_bert (Aug 24, 2014)

Keith at Northlight seems to have got confirmation from a source that the specs are "pretty solid"....


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2014)

Stu_bert said:


> Keith at Northlight seems to have got confirmation from a source that the specs are "pretty solid"....


Northlight is famous for poor guesses.... they have been saying it is about to come out for two years, and after the 70D was released, they had solid rumours for the 7D2 that were lower speced than the 70D... Northlight isn't even worth reading for a laugh....


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## Khufu (Aug 24, 2014)

Diltiazem said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > PureClassA said:
> ...



The 7DX(w) will not have WiFi. There will also be a 7DX for regions where WiFi would result in legal complications; this model will also not have WiFi but for different reasons.


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## jrista (Aug 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > There is a third possibility...
> ...



It does not, however it has a considerably more advanced, lower power sensor. Canon is still using huge transistors, and they are not even the more advanced kind of high efficiency multi-gate transistors we're capable of manufacturing today. Canon is really, really, REALLY far behind on sensor tech, and even behind just on general CMOS fabrication. 

Yeah, I think a sensor fabricated with an older process using huge transistors IS going to create a lot of heat when operated at a higher speed. So I think Don's comment has a lot of merit.


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## Khufu (Aug 24, 2014)

I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2014)

Khufu said:


> I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...


When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.


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## Khufu (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Khufu said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
> ...


Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now 
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...


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## krafty (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > Keith at Northlight seems to have got confirmation from a source that the specs are "pretty solid"....
> ...



Luckily your posts keep that from happening here


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2014)

Khufu said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Khufu said:
> ...


I've been working in an electronics research lab for 35 years.... designed and built my first computer (all wire-wrap) in 1975, have designed IC's, had internet for two years before it was invented, etc etc... One finds out a lot from trade publications... and if you really want to see what's happening in sensors you should see what surveillance systems are capable of! You can get recognizable pictures of someone walking from 24,000 feet!

One of the important things learned over the years was the importance of not saying that something was impossible.... I think that one of the greatest of all technology visionary statements was in 1976 by the engineers at Texas Instruments when they released their 16K by 1 bit memory chip and said "this is it boys, throw away your design tools because this is as dense as memory can possibly be made"... and now I have a 64G micro SD card in my GoPro that is a tenth the size and a million times the capacity and a thousand times faster....


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2014)

Khufu said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Khufu said:
> ...


Seriously though, Canon is using old tech for their APS-C and FF sensors. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I seem to recall that the lithography on their sensors is at least twice the size of anyone else's... their P/S sensors are done in a different production line and the lithography is 4 times smaller....

I am hoping that with the downturn in P/S sales, that there will be space on that line to manufacture a new line of larger sensors with finer lithography. If they were to make the leap, the edges around pixels would shrink, thereby improving the sensitivity of their sensors. With finer lithography, there would now be room on the sensor for the A/D circuitry and it could be done to read an entire row or column at a time. This would shorten the analog path and reduce noise. This on-chip A/D could now run far slower that the off-chip A/D, and that also means less noise. The smaller lithography means lower power consumption, and that means less heat, which means less noise and longer battery life. Smaller lithography means that the circuitry is smaller and the electrons have less distance to go... this makes things run faster.

They have to do this at some time. The sooner the better.


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## dgatwood (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> I've been working in an electronics research lab for 35 years.... designed and built my first computer (all wire-wrap) in 1975, have designed IC's, had internet for two years before it was invented, etc etc... One finds out a lot from trade publications... and if you really want to see what's happening in sensors you should see what surveillance systems are capable of! You can get recognizable pictures of someone walking from 24,000 feet!



Adaptive optics? Because that's the only way I can think of that you could even approach a usable picture at that resolution through that much air....


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > I've been working in an electronics research lab for 35 years.... designed and built my first computer (all wire-wrap) in 1975, have designed IC's, had internet for two years before it was invented, etc etc... One finds out a lot from trade publications... and if you really want to see what's happening in sensors you should see what surveillance systems are capable of! You can get recognizable pictures of someone walking from 24,000 feet!
> ...


That was in the high arctic... much clearer air there and less turbulence. You have to go down to about 4000 feet here in Eastern Ontario...


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > Keith at Northlight seems to have got confirmation from a source that the specs are "pretty solid"....
> ...



northlight used to have the best info, some years back, then CR got all the acclaim and far more attention and ten the rumors seemed to fade away


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## x-vision (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Khufu said:
> 
> 
> > Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now
> ...



Here are the numbers (scroll down to the second table): 
http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/


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## x-vision (Aug 24, 2014)

Khufu said:


> Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers?



Don and Jrista are right. 
For their FF sensors in particular, Canon is still using an old manufacturing process. 
See the link that I posted above.


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## Lawliet (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> They have to do this at some time. The sooner the better.



Putting basically four of the current aptina sensors next to each other would be a nice start...Phase one-like resolution at 60fps.


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## crashpc (Aug 24, 2014)

x-vision said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Khufu said:
> ...



Two years old... Srsly where do you people get that fact that they don´t use 180nm or even smaller tech for new sensors? I see no hint of this or opposite....


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## rrcphoto (Aug 24, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Khufu said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



actually no one has a clue what they are using on the 70D.

and everyone uses "old tech" on their full frame sensors - the latest and greatest sony's are rolling at 180nm.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 24, 2014)

jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



hard to say. usually that is a function of "die shrinking" and die shrinking here wouldn't have a place because regardless of the geometry - the die is the same size - trace wiring is going to run the same distances regardless of the lithographic geometry. also usally these devices when shrunk run at a lower internal power - they require less - not really so with sensors, as you can't lower the voltage as that would have an effect of increasing noise percentage. Not only that but decreasing the geometry also has the effect if the wiring is the same distance, increasing the resistance, which would again be distributed as heat.

so while transistors that are switching in the millions of times per second will consume more power the larger they are, that is relatively immaterial to the other aspects of the sensor as well, and especially considering that the switching on a sensor is relatively pedestrian at best. 

Canon's never had a problem with "dark current" and heat on their sensors which is usually exhibited at long exposures and sensitive applications such as astrophotography. as a matter of fact, they've always been some of the best, and are still favoured by astro photography. 

there's also more prone to ESD, more electron loss, and a mydrid of other complexities surrounding smaller geometries - which is why you see all the ASP-C and full frame sensors using around 20+ year old lithography technology.

canon's KrF could easily handle current "high tech" sensors - but only their engineers know if there's any benefit, and i'm sure they have a better grasp on that than you and I.

with respects to the heat generation - most of that would be in DiGiC and whatever sub processor they are using for the codecs as the processors have to read through 4K worth of RAW data x 24-30 frames per second, debayer and apply tonal curves, and then write it out at 24-30 frames per second in the codec of choice.

they are image processing (or have to) around 200MB / second through the DiGiC processors - because it certainly just isn't coming off the chip and being written out onto a CF/SD card.


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## jrista (Aug 24, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



You are right, the use of the term "die shrink" was wrong. I usually say "smaller fabrication process" or "smaller transistor size". 

There are a lot of sensor patents out there, usually for smaller sensors, especially the ones that are used in mobile battery-powered devices, that are using more energy-efficient transistors. Variations of FinFET or multi-gate transistors, which have been used in CPU's now for a couple generations. I have no doubt that the DIGIC chips get very hot, but the sensors get hot as well. That's why there is an automatic shutoff for live view after an arbitrary amount of time...when the camera detects the sensor getting hot, it disables the video read, thereby disabling live view. And I believe that is just with a line-skipping read! 

A full 4k video read, or worse, a full high quality binned 4:2:2 4k video read, is undoubtedly going to create some heat. Smaller transistors alone would help with the energy dissipation, and the use of a more modern type of transistor could help further (although is probably unnecessary in a large sensor).

As for Canon's dark current, for short exposures, they don't have problems. However compared to other sensors, Canon's dark current is now becoming some of the highest. I do astrophotography myself, I spend a lot of time on AP forums. Canon is still the staple, but a hacking group recently cracked the black point clipping issue with Nikon and Sony cameras. Anything using an Exmor has lower read noise and significantly lower dark current. They are quickly becoming very popular, particularly the D7100 and one of the D5000 models (although I think the latter actually uses a Toshiba sensor.) 

Canon's technology is aging, and it is starting to show on all fronts. Even the once iron castle of Astrophotography has now been invaded by different brands.


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## tapanit (Aug 24, 2014)

Canon1 said:


> I'm sure canon will produce a stellar camera on all features except sensor. It's possible that the sensor is something new and revolutionary, but this is te one piece that really matters. This could either be a game changer like I believe the 5d3 was... Or it could just be a hyped up 70d. I'm hoping for the former, as I am looking for a great camera to pair with my current 5d3. 8)


My feelings exactly. The sensor will make it or break it for me. If it is at least as good as the 5D3 cropped down with same lens (in a focal-length-limited situation), I'll get one pretty much regardless of anything else (as long as it still costs significantly less than the 5D3). Otherwise, I'll probably pass.


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## jdramirez (Aug 24, 2014)

I'm pretty much done with aps-c cameras... but I think this is sufficiently spec'ed... but not enough to really make me want to switch... or upgrade my 2nd body (which is an aps-c... so maybe not entirely done).

I like the 1080p @ 60fps... but I was kinda hoping for a 120fps option... probably @ 720p. But no. And you may ask... why?... because I take slow motion video of my daughter's softball swing... and a few of her friends... and when you slow it the f' down... you can see the mistakes... not so much @ 24 fps... but 60 is adequate... but I wouldn't mind even slower and smoother video. 

I'm disappointed about the built in RF... I have the ST-rf-e3 (or whatever it is called)... but I wouldn't mind if rf was a common feature in all high end canon SLR's from now on. 

I'm surprised there isn't 4k... but I wouldn't want that type of file size anyway... but I'm surprised.


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## eddiemrg (Aug 24, 2014)

Too much expectation will ruin this new camera, IMHO.


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## Canon1 (Aug 24, 2014)

For me. the sensor in this camera does not need to be as good as the 5D3 with respect to high ISO (which I don't believe is possible), but to meet my expectations, the quality of the noise in high ISO must be much better then current APS-C offerings. What made the 5D3 (and 1DX) so great at high ISO was detail retention through the quality of Noise (IMO). It is a luminance noise that is quite easy to clean up in post, rather then a detail robbing color noise full of blue and red pixels... which is very difficult to correct for. I get usable images out of the 5D3 at ISO 10,000 and 12,800 frequently. Really good quality up to ISO 6400. If the 7D2 (or whatever it is called) delivers a sensor with IQ and noise quality even 1 or 1.5 stops below the 5D3... I would buy it.


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## crashpc (Aug 24, 2014)

Totally agree with "cleaning with ease". From what I´ve seen (DPR comparison tool) it would be nice to have 5D II noise, quality and lattitude. I´d pick it immediately then (if they placed it in EOS M3).


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## Chuck Alaimo (Aug 24, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> Clyde2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Funny , all this fuss about a consumer camera . Dreamers discuss specs on plastic consumer cameras like the 7d, Real photographers just buy the pro body , ie. the Canon 1dx . Nuff said
> ...



Lets also not forget that not all pros neeed the features of a 1dx, mainly the fps and the extra juju for servo tracking. A lot of pros use 5d's because of this factor - a 1dx for weddings is a bit of overkill (not that it wouldn't kick major butt!....but it would be kind of like having a a fancy fast race car but adding a governor to it so it can only reach a max speed of 70mph. For weddings I generally have my 5d3 on silent mode, and, I have been opting to just not have burst mode on at all (yeah, I could just go with servo mode and rapid fire, but I'd rather come away with 5-10 great shots of the bride coming down the aisle 50-70 rapid fire at 12 fps --- I already feel like i shoot too much at weddings and need to calm down on the shutter and be more calculated with my shots.)

So no, not all pros use a 1dx, nor do all pros need a 1dx. A good portion of that price tag is all about fps, and buffer, and AF tracking...strip that away and you get a 5 series body! There are some other bells and whisltes the 1dx has that would rock, but no, not everyone needs a machine gun of a camera...


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## x-vision (Aug 24, 2014)

crashpc said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > Here are the numbers (scroll down to the second table):
> ...



The 1DX, 5DIII, and 6D are all made on old 500nm CMOS process - whether you like it or not. 

The only newer sensor than that is the 70D sensor. 
There's no publicly available info on which process it is using.
It's possible that it's made on 180nm process, considering the dual-pixel tech.
This has not been confirmed, though.

On the other hand, even the 70D is using off-sensor A/D conversion - like all other Canon sensors. 
This is visible with the naked eye if you look at the 70D main circuit board.
It also explains the typical low DR score on DxO. 

When Canon announces a 4K/60fps video sensor (either in a DSLR or in a Cinema camera), 
this will be a sure sigh that they have moved to on-sensor ADC and newer manufacturing process.
This is when Canon's DR scores will shoot up to match/exceed the competition.

Until then, Canon will continue lagging behind Sony and Nikon in DR. 
Deal with it 8).


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## crashpc (Aug 24, 2014)

x-vision said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > x-vision said:
> ...



Of course. I take 5D III sensor as old thing in this topic. I mean newest sensors for new products. As mentioned many times, they have that tech. 

For other things it´s not that easy and there is more to it than that. If you can count, you can count that there is actually NO problem with 500nm process if you don´t push it by too fast readout. Compared (good design) with 180nm process, there is no chance to loose more than 1,5db of signal or DR. This is nothing near to two or more stops... The problem is with circuity design. Hope they solve it. I´d be happier to have this solved on 500nm - and as you can see with possible 180nm process of 70D sensor, it hasn´t been solved, because the problem is elsewhere.


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## that1guyy (Aug 24, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > There is a third possibility...
> ...


GH4 has internal 4k although it is 8 bit 4:2:0.


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