# What's the deal with B&H being closed on weekends?



## cayenne (May 5, 2012)

Ok...I've been jumping around last few weeks...different sites, seeing deals, etc.

I noticed that a popular place, B&H seemed to be closed on weekends which seemed strange to me...I mean, even online, people are usually off and Saturday is a big shopping day.

What is their deal....why do they close on Saturdays. I mean, even on their site them say:

"Please note that B&H does not process web orders from Friday evening to Saturday evening. "

I've never heard of such a thing before.....?

C


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## neuroanatomist (May 5, 2012)

Comparative Religions class, anyone? Friday evening through Saturday evening is the Jewish Sabbath, which B&H observes (along with all the Jewish holidays through the year). They post their hours and yearly calendar, so you know when they'll be closed.


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## dr croubie (May 5, 2012)

I don't see why they have to close off internet ordering on saturdays though, seeing as it's just a script that gets processed the same as any other day. Unless their webservers are Jewish too?

(or yeah, most likely is that they just don't want to wake up Sunday morning and have a buttload of orders to get through that they didn't do on Saturday...)


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## neuroanatomist (May 6, 2012)

dr croubie said:


> I don't see why they have to close off internet ordering on saturdays though, seeing as it's just a script that gets processed the same as any other day. Unless their webservers are Jewish too?
> 
> (or yeah, most likely is that they just don't want to wake up Sunday morning and have a buttload of orders to get through that they didn't do on Saturday...)



Really - do go take that Comparative Religions class. There is a proscription against conducting business on Shabbat. 

_Lev. 23:3 
There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to HaShem.

Exodus 34:21
Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
_

Making money from Internet sales on the Sabbath consititutes 'work'. Memo to Christians - those Old Testament references apply as well, though the Christian Sabbath falls on Sunday, although the proscription is largely ignored. Atheists and agnostics - feel free to work seven days a week.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 6, 2012)

Maybe schools need to teach a little more about the world's religions, there was certainly nothing taught about them when I went to school.

I'm saying teaching about them, not teaching or pushing one or the other.


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## neuroanatomist (May 6, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Maybe schools need to teach a little more about the world's religions, there was certainly nothing taught about them when I went to school.



Benefits of a Catholic education. We had comparative religion as an requirement. In the final year, we got to choose an elective option - my choice was Theology of the Devil. Not kidding. Reading list included C.S. Lewis' _The Screwtape Letters_, among other texts.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 6, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe schools need to teach a little more about the world's religions, there was certainly nothing taught about them when I went to school.
> ...


 
I've read most of the CS Lewis novels, including the Screwtape letters, but on my own. I'm definitely at a huge disadvantage in discussing religions with anyone. 

I read almost anything I can get my hands on, but mostly old Science fiction stories and novels from the 30-s thru the 60's. I have a few thousand I bought from a estate that I put in alphabetical order by author, and added anothet thousand or so from other used book sales. I'm up to Delaney now, and might never read them all, although I've probably read 40% of them years ago.

Adorama, and our local camera store, Huppins (Onecall.com), are owned by Jews, but do not close on the Sabbath or other Religious Holidays, so obviously, their are varying degrees of how strictly they follow the rules, just as with all the other religions. I tend to admire B&H for sticking to their beliefs, and, since shippiing is not done on Saturday by most businesses anyway, its not a big deal when they are closed.


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## UrbanImages (May 6, 2012)

Having visited B&H just this past Monday, I can tell you that 85-90% of the workers in the store were obvious orthodox/Hasidic Jews. Thus with not only the owners, but most of the staff observant, it makes sense. I respect their adherence to their beliefs, not an inconvenience. I can tell you however that the store is an absolute marvel to visit. A technophiles dream really. Mid Afternoon on a Monday and it was jam packed, they could certainly spare Saturdays.

And I'm with you Neuro, 12 yrs of Catholic school you get to know what's what in regards to world religions!!


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## photophreek (May 6, 2012)

"The deal is" that B&H is owned and operated by Orthodox and Conservative Jews. The time between Friday at sunset and Saturday evening is deemed the Sabath or litrerally translated as the day of rest or the seventh day. There are 39 authorities or activities that are not allowed on the Sabath. Some Orthodox or Conservative Jews define operating electrical switches as being included in one of the 39 activites. As a result, since turning on lights in the B&H retail store or operating computers for online orders and sales involves electricity, the B&H store and online ordering are not open for business during the Sabath.

I do not observe the teachings of the Jewish faith, but I have taken the time to understand and respect the reasons why B&H is not open for business during this time. Unlike some of the posters in this thread who seem to think that it is acceptable to post disrespectful comments about B&H and it's observance of the Jewish religion. 

Notwithstanding, could we limit our posts to OOF lenses and other related photographic endeavours and refrain from posting uneducated and rude comments about someone's personal religious convictions.


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## brianboru (May 6, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



Off topic, do yourself a favor and jump ahead to the "W"s and read some Manly Wade Wellman. 

On topic, my education on the subject was a college roommate who was both Jewish (Reformed) and the campus paper's main photographer. 

Wakipedia has an interesting claim: "Surpassed only by the Diamond District in terms of Orthodox employment, the company is a vital part of the community's financial health, with hundreds of Orthodox Jews on staff."


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## Bosman (May 6, 2012)

The torah is much truer than the oral torah. I wish i could observe shabbot. I am not able to work unless i work it. If i was known for shooting the jewish community and their wedding stuff i wouldn't need the Saturday work. Alas God didn't strike David dead when he ate the show bread in the temple because in the Torah, life supersedes Torah. If one breaks the Torah to stay alive it is higher than observing and dying.


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## anthros (May 6, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe schools need to teach a little more about the world's religions, there was certainly nothing taught about them when I went to school.
> ...



Was that Catholic education administered by the Jesuits, by any chance? Mandatory comparative religion class seems (to me) like a hallmark Jesuit move--of which I heartily approve. 

I kind of respect B&H for closing on Hasidim-appropriate days; I mean, they're serious about it. Myself, I'm an atheist, but that's neither here nor there. Regardless of your belief system, a little education goes a long way. I don't mean any offense to the OP, but I can't help filing this under "'tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."


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## cayenne (May 6, 2012)

photophreek said:


> "The deal is" that B&H is owned and operated by Orthodox and Conservative Jews. The time between Friday at sunset and Saturday evening is deemed the Sabath or litrerally translated as the day of rest or the seventh day. There are 39 authorities or activities that are not allowed on the Sabath. Some Orthodox or Conservative Jews define operating electrical switches as being included in one of the 39 activites. As a result, since turning on lights in the B&H retail store or operating computers for online orders and sales involves electricity, the B&H store and online ordering are not open for business during the Sabath.
> 
> I do not observe the teachings of the Jewish faith, but I have taken the time to understand and respect the reasons why B&H is not open for business during this time. Unlike some of the posters in this thread who seem to think that it is acceptable to post disrespectful comments about B&H and it's observance of the Jewish religion.
> 
> Notwithstanding, could we limit our posts to OOF lenses and other related photographic endeavours and refrain from posting uneducated and rude comments about someone's personal religious convictions.



Interesting...thanks for all the posts......I learned something today.

I wasn't being disrespectful...just something I'd never heard of before. I've never grown up around many people of the Jewish faith...so, not something I'd have guessed off the top of my head, as that I'd never heard of this before.

I remember growing up in AR, basically...a 'notch' in the bible belt...we used to have the Blue Laws. I do remember the few stores that were opened on Sunday, had aisles....and there was no real pattern here...of things that could and could not be sold those days.

Back then...even restaurants were closed that day since they couldn't server alcohol. I used to work retail at Dillards...and it was closed on Sundays back then.

Anyway.....the blue laws have long been gone, and I'd not thought of anyone closing or not selling things due to religious reasons any longer.

Not a huge orthodox Jewish community prevalent down here in New Orleans...so, this is something I'd not run into here.

Anyway....interesting...thanks for the explanations.

I learn something new every day!!



Thanx,

cayenne


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## neuroanatomist (May 6, 2012)

anthros said:


> Was that Catholic education administered by the Jesuits, by any chance?



It was, indeed.


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## samkatz (May 6, 2012)

I think only one post seemed disrespectful, but kudos to the poster for clarifying that he simply did not understand the orthodox/hasidic jewish take on the sabbath. Even though "honor the sabbath" and the prohibition of working on the sabbath is common to Christians and jews, it's very rarely adhered to. Baptists and other Christians off course at one time kept Sundays pretty much reserved for church, hence the old "Blue Laws" that kept bars and shopping closed on Sundays.

Within the Jewish community, very few keep the Sabbath. The Orthodox and Hasidm take a very strict view. You can't work, you can't handle money or conduct business, drive a car or even turn on any electrical device(like elevator, TV, etc).. There are many "loopholes".. For example, in an Orthodox temple, non-Jewish employees might be employed to handle lighting, etc. Timers are often used on elevators, eg, you can ride in one, but can't operate it.

I give the guys at B&H a lot of credit for sticking with their beliefs. They probably lose some potential sales, not only on w/e's but on all the holidays they close. There are many holidays that most of us, including non-observant Jews such as myself, have never heard of. B&H and others probably could have found some rabbinical interpretation to say that internet sales were not really work, since presumably the website was not set up on the Sabbath and only the customers are pressing the keys. However they chose to obey what they see as their faith, and are still highly successful.

hope this gives some explanation,


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## Chadowe (May 6, 2012)

I admire B&H for adhering to their beliefs rather than bow to the almighty dollar, in fact, it's one of the major reasons I patronize them. FWIW, I also support RC Willey and Chick-Fil-A (when I can) for their same conviction towards the Christian Sabbath on Sunday. While I know it doesn't guarantee everything will always go perfectly, or even smoothly, knowing company leaders give value to doing the "right thing", will always attract my business.


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## ScottyP (May 6, 2012)

I have bought stuff from Amazon and Adorama, but I mostly buy from B&H. The prices are usually exactly the same as their competitors, but it is their site that is the real gem. 
Compare all the others and then look at the superior search interface on the B&H site. You can enter search parameters that will progressively narrow your search logically (usually) and help you drill down on what you are looking for. 

Compare that to Abe's of Maine _(sorry guys)_ who really need to upgrade their site's search system. They have overlapping search criteria, many of which were irrelevant to begin with. Just one example: When searching for a LENS, who does so based on whether they are a "photo enthusiast, an enthusiast, a semi-pro photographer, a semi-professional, a pro photographer, or a professional"? Talk about splitting hairs. Who knows what you'd be eliminating if you clicked any one or any combination of those?

I think B&H has it running so smoothly that they can take a day off every week and their automated system will still do a superior job with no one steering the wheel.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 6, 2012)

ScottyP said:


> I have bought stuff from Amazon and Adorama, but I mostly buy from B&H. The prices are usually exactly the same as their competitors, but it is their site that is the real gem.
> Compare all the others and then look at the superior search interface on the B&H site.


 
+1

The other sites are not in the same league as far as finding the product you want. Its often a ordeal to find a item on the other sites.

Finding the right memory card, for example.


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## photophreek (May 6, 2012)

cayenne wrote:


> Interesting...thanks for all the posts......I learned something today.
> 
> I wasn't being disrespectful...just something I'd never heard of before. I've never grown up around many people of the Jewish faith...so, not something I'd have guessed off the top of my head, as that I'd never heard of this before.



Great response and I learned something as well, "Blue Laws". Now I know what my father taught us growing up. I always complained to him that I wanted to go to the movies with my friends on Sunday and he would not have any part of it.


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## mws (May 6, 2012)

While born and raised Catholic with 12+ years of Catholic schooling, I no longer identify with the faith mich, I find B&H's ability to resist the all might dollar of capitalism for for their own personal beliefs a refreshing idea. I order from because I really like their site, product selection, and customer service. 

You can still place a order, it just doesn't ship until later anyway.


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## Steinn (May 6, 2012)

BH is a great company for us photographers. But they do close during jewish holidays. But they always inform when they are closed, so no problem for most of us.
Stein, 
Norway


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## RC (May 6, 2012)

Hmmm, I learned a few things from this thread, thanks all. Kudos to B&H and any other retailer who puts values and principles on top.


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## koolman (May 6, 2012)

As an orthodox Jew, I can say that I am proud to observe the Sabbath, even if it means not making money.
I find, that overall, if you live by spiritual principles, you will never lose, and on the contrary gain.


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## Fotofanten (May 6, 2012)

As an atheist, I am glad you feel that way koolman. All is good that brings joy to this life without harming others


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## NHK (May 6, 2012)

Hi, i have a little question for you guys.
As a foreign customer, when you buy gear (lens, bag...) in the NY shop (not online) is it possible to avoid international taxes and/or the New York VAT?

Thanks.


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## cayenne (May 6, 2012)

NHK said:


> Hi, i have a little question for you guys.
> As a foreign customer, when you buy gear (lens, bag...) in the NY shop (not online) is it possible to avoid international taxes and/or the New York VAT?
> 
> Thanks.



I don't know about international taxes....but as far as I know...no US city or state currently has a VAT.

There are state and local taxes, but at least at this point, when you buy online, US companies do not collect any taxes if the sale it to an address outside of that state, if said company does not have a presence in your state.

Internationally.....they won't collect it either, but I think I've heard, that if it is going to anywhere in the EU, for instance...that the authorities on that end charge the end user there for it somehow, before you receive it..? I'm guessing they're checking all international packages coming in at the border over there...?

C


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## ramon123 (May 6, 2012)

As an Orthodox Jew I am quite surprised to see what was said in this thread. I'll do my best to straighten out the comments that were made here.

1. The written Torah and the Oral Torah are one entity. The Oral Torah expounds on the Written Torah to explain what each posuk (verse) means. The Oral Torah is thousands of years old and has a Mesorah (tradition) to have come directly down from Moshe (Moses) from Har Sinai (Mount Sinai).

2. Millions of Jews keep Shabbat. There's no such things as Chassidic Jews are "serious" about it or keep it more. There is something called Halacha (Jewish Law) which dictates exactly how to keep everything including positive actions and negative prohibitions.

3. A Jew cannot have his business open on Shabbat period and that includes benefiting from it. That's why B&H are closed on Shabbat and all the Festivals.

4. Many people think that by being closed that they would lose money. Jews believe opposite, that by closing and observing what the Creator wants, He will shower down more blessing. Well lets see, I think B&H shows us what massive blessing is.

5. B&H is an Orthodox Jewish store.

Have a great day ;D


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## NHK (May 6, 2012)

cayenne said:


> NHK said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, i have a little question for you guys.
> ...



Sorry to speak of that in this thread, this will be my last answer about taxes.
My bad for the VAT, i wanted to say taxes. 
Thanks for your answer.


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## Positron (May 6, 2012)

ramon123 said:


> 2. Millions of Jews keep Shabbat. There's no such things as Chassidic Jews are "serious" about it or keep it more. There is something called Halacha (Jewish Law) which dictates exactly how to keep everything including positive actions and negative prohibitions.
> 
> 3. A Jew cannot have his business open on Shabbat period and that includes benefiting from it. That's why B&H are closed on Shabbat and all the Festivals.



I think the point was that in this day and age, many people who identify as Jewish do not fully observe the Jewish law (for example, by working on Shabbat or not keeping Kosher). Many businesses run by Jews remain open on Saturday, which is precisely why the behavior of closing a large business can create confusion amongst those who haven't been exposed to it.

It's no different from identifying as Christian but not following the literal word of the Bible (find me a single person who actually does verbatim and I will be phenomenally impressed).

It's not that Chassidim are "more serious" but rather that their dedication to observing Jewish law to as great a degree as they can manage is what drives them to identify with that group in the first place. That is to say, cause and effect are reversed here. Chassidim don't follow every word of the Torah, either. Just a much higher percentage than most other Jews do.

At the end of the day religion is a very personal thing, and one of the reasons I love living in America is that you can choose to live however you want, even if that means closing a hugely successful business every Saturday, and people may wonder why but nobody can tell you that it's not okay... that's freedom of religion. Identifying as Jewish even if you never attend synagogue, don't observe Kashrut, and work on Shabbat is also your right. As long as you eat bagels and lox. If you don't do that, then go find some other religion, because Judaism doesn't want you anymore.


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## t.linn (May 6, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Memo to Christians - those Old Testament references apply as well, though the Christian Sabbath falls on Sunday, although the proscription is largely ignored.



Not true. Christians believe that Christ freed us from the law. This is not to be confused with freedom from ethical or moral restraint, however it does mean freedom from Jewish laws like the one discussed here. The apostle Paul discusses this often in his epistles and specifically takes Judaizers (Jews who accepted Christ as Savior but also suggested that keeping the Jewish laws remained necessary) to task for distorting the gospel message.


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## ramon123 (May 6, 2012)

Positron said:


> It's not that Chassidim are "more serious" but rather that their dedication to observing Jewish law to as great a degree as they can manage is what drives them to identify with that group in the first place. That is to say, cause and effect are reversed here. Chassidim don't follow every word of the Torah, either. Just a much higher percentage than most other Jews do.



With all respect, as someone who knows about Chassidim probably a little more than you, I would have to disagree.

Orthodox Jews including Chassidim strive to and have to keep all of Jewish Law - there's no picking and choosing.


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## Positron (May 6, 2012)

ramon123 said:


> Positron said:
> 
> 
> > It's not that Chassidim are "more serious" but rather that their dedication to observing Jewish law to as great a degree as they can manage is what drives them to identify with that group in the first place. That is to say, cause and effect are reversed here. Chassidim don't follow every word of the Torah, either. Just a much higher percentage than most other Jews do.
> ...



I made no accusation of picking and choosing, nor of failing to strive to, nor even of not having to observe all tenets of Jewish law. I don't wish to start an argument, so I will drop the point here.


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## stevenrrmanir (May 7, 2012)

I am Jewish, and I do support B&H for the same reasons. There are 5 working days during the week, and then there should be a rest day! Most North Americans don't have the concept of resting! They work 24/7 and wonder why they are so burned out! Take a break!


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## roumin (May 7, 2012)

Since this thread has gone WAY offline, so here it goes.. I am a customer of B&H, but I must point out that the store's management and sales staff are predomintely orthodox jews, while lower positions are predomiently non-jews. Does anyone else see anything wrong with that? What happend to equal apportunity employment?

If this happens at chick-fil-A, then I would have a problem with them as well!

Things are not always what they seem.


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## unfocused (May 7, 2012)

This is a rare thread. It started foolish and ended up serious. Just the opposite of most of the threads on this site.

I do wonder though, if someone could enlighten me about something. (BTW, I do have Jewish friends and family, but none are Orthodox and all are about as observant as I am of Christianity – which is to say, not much.) This discussion has focused on B&H, but I believe Adorama also is owned and operated by Orthodox Jews. Yet, I notice that the two stores do not always follow exactly the same schedules and policies regarding ordering on Shabbat. 

Really, just more of an academic question because I like to learn things, but can anyone enlighten me on why Adorama might follow slightly different policies? Or, am I mistaken.


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## ramon123 (May 7, 2012)

Adorama like B&H don't process your order till after Shabbat.


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## funkboy (May 7, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The other sites are not in the same league as far as finding the product you want. Its often a ordeal to find a item on the other sites.



Agree; my standard procedure is "search for it at B&H, if they don't have it go to Adorama, if all else fails use Amazon..."


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## samuel613 (May 7, 2012)

As others have mentioned, Jewish law prohibits conducting business on the Sabbath. So both stores state clearly on their sites that they are closed Friday afternoon and Saturday. 

Regarding any apparent differences in observance of Jewish law between the two sites: the entire concept of online credit card transactions was obviously not around until very recently and it seems there either is or was a debate among Rabbinical authorities as to what, if any, parts of this online "world" is/are or is/are not problematic on the Sabbath.

Generally speaking, each Rabbi will have to decide questions in Jewish law for his own congregants. So if Adorama does do things slightly differently than B&H, then this most likely means Adorama's (management's) Rabbi ruled differently than did the one B&H consults with regards to these matters. Other possibilities exist, too, but, regardless, I would assume both stores' respective management are equally adherent to their faith in the running of their respective businesses, despite any slight difference(s) in practice and methods.



unfocused said:


> This is a rare thread. It started foolish and ended up serious. Just the opposite of most of the threads on this site.
> 
> I do wonder though, if someone could enlighten me about something. (BTW, I do have Jewish friends and family, but none are Orthodox and all are about as observant as I am of Christianity – which is to say, not much.) This discussion has focused on B&H, but I believe Adorama also is owned and operated by Orthodox Jews. Yet, I notice that the two stores do not always follow exactly the same schedules and policies regarding ordering on Shabbat.
> 
> Really, just more of an academic question because I like to learn things, but can anyone enlighten me on why Adorama might follow slightly different policies? Or, am I mistaken.


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## koolman (May 7, 2012)

This thread has gone way over to theology - which is not a bad thing sometimes, as photography is about art, and art is about expressing something internal, and spirituality and religion are primary components of internal side of a human being, aside from his physical being and possessions.

To clarify the issue of BH and Adorama's websites on Sabbath. Both these companies are owned by orthodox Jews, and both observe the Sabbath. Neither company employs people on the Sabbath.

The question of their leaving the website active on Sabbath, collecting orders that would be processed on the following Monday, is an area which could be open for scholarly discussion, as the website serves the general public, which is primarily non Jewish, and its being active does not advocate transgressing the Jewish Sabbath.

This is especially true if they state openly on the site, that all orders will be held and processed only AFTER the Sabbath.


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## Bosman (May 14, 2012)

ramon123 said:


> As an Orthodox Jew I am quite surprised to see what was said in this thread. I'll do my best to straighten out the comments that were made here.
> 
> 1. The written Torah and the Oral Torah are one entity. The Oral Torah expounds on the Written Torah to explain what each posuk (verse) means. The Oral Torah is thousands of years old and has a Mesorah (tradition) to have come directly down from Moshe (Moses) from Har Sinai (Mount Sinai).
> 
> ...


I did not mean to say the oral torah is cheap, meaningless or un-useful. Much of the oral Torah was meant to make a fence to protect the Torah. This in effect causes man to observe mans laws rather than the perfect law of God. It starts getting into washing of hands and use left hand to wash before right then eat. This is whether you believe in Yeshua (Jesus as most know him by) or not he fought the rabbi's on this matter and debated the teachers of the day on the subject of making what was easy and perfect (the Torah) and making it a burden. Most of Torah law relates to those who work in the Temple environment, the more basic laws relate to all, leaving a few things not to burben us but to protect us from harm in a world designed by God. Who better to tell you how a camera works than a manufacturer.

On another note, leaving the land fallow after 7 years of using the land to farm regenerates over that year of disuse and even the secular world finds great reward in keeping that law. The soil regains its mineral content and creates fruits and veggies beyond those over used and fertilized.


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