# Magic Lantern adds 1/3-1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.



## Marsu42 (Jan 17, 2014)

Breakthrough at Magic Lantern, imho this elevates it to a must-have and makes Canon look really stupid: They at last figured out what the digic registers having to do with iso are, and by fine-tuning them your camera *now gets an additional 1/3-1/2 stop of dynamic range,* no strings attached. Just use +1/3 stop of ec (ML also has ec in m mode, just like the new 1dx fw) and you're done.

This means that for example on 5d3, iso 800 with ML has more dynamic range than iso 100 with Canon :-> ... and at high iso you're getting 7% more dr which is nothing to sneeze at, esp. since it builds upon Canon's advantage vs. Nikon: [email protected] = ~8.3 & [email protected] = ~9.4 ev making good ol' Canon the superior sensor for low light high contrast shooting, esp. the newer 6d.


```
# 5D3
isos =      [ 100    200    400    800    1600   3200   6400  12800 ];
dr =        [ 10.989 10.928 10.799 10.594 10.153  9.521 8.584 7.778 ];
dr_tweak =  [ 11.371 11.334 11.239 11.028 10.598 10.017 9.131 8.360 ];
```

Read all about it here, test modules are about to be out, next coming to a nightly build near you! Here's the dev thread if you want to follow the development: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=10111.msg97780#msg97780

If you feel exposure challenged, you can use the ettr module to automatically set the exposure so it covers exactly the dynamic range of the scene with optimum snr 

Edit: Updated 5d3 numbers & changed topic, keeping the same(!) iso value the general improvement is more like 1/3ev and not 1/2ev like first reported (it's wip, people!) because the ML iso trick lowers the nominal iso a bit.


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## vscd (Jan 17, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

Now, please make it available for the 5DC, too!


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## Marsu42 (Jan 17, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



vscd said:


> Now, please make it availbale for the 5DC, too!



The 5dc (or as the hardcore 5d folks would argue: 5d ) is currently unmaintained, meaning there's no one around with this camera, some coding skills and time on his/her hands at the same time :-o ... feel free to contribute, it's not such a big deal, but it needs someone to test the new stuff and search for some digic register locations now and then.


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## K13X5C (Jan 17, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

You gotta love Magic Lantern They're doing some good work and sharing it, too!


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## AtSea (Jan 17, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

Always excited to hear about DR improvements. I went to their thread and it's far too highly technical for me to understand. I will wait for real-world photo examples and comparisons before going through with installing ML on all my cards. The difference would have to be far from negligible for me to bite. 

Don't get me wrong, love and respect the creativity and development work being done on their end, just haven't loved the interface and inherent risk, as slim as it may be.


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## cayenne (Jan 17, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

Any ideas on when this will be in at least beta for the 5D3....so that you don't have to set an irreversible boot flag on your camera, and have the slow start times for the camera?

I'm dying to try ML on my 5D3, but I'm not willing to set irreversible settings, or have my camera become slow to turn on or come out of sleep....



cayenne


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## crazyrunner33 (Jan 17, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



cayenne said:


> Any ideas on when this will be in at least beta for the 5D3....so that you don't have to set an irreversible boot flag on your camera, and have the slow start times for the camera?
> 
> I'm dying to try ML on my 5D3, but I'm not willing to set irreversible settings, or have my camera become slow to turn on or come out of sleep....
> 
> ...



Number 1 rule for open source projects: Never ask for ETA.

With that said, Magic Lantern can be turned off or even removed without much effort. But I see no reason to turn it off, the only time the boots are slow is when using the card warmup feature which I find to be very valuable. I've been using their nightly builds and RAW video for broadcast work for over six months without any issue.


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## Rockets95 (Jan 17, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

This is probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyway - is this for photo, video, or both?


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## cliffwang (Jan 17, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



crazyrunner33 said:


> Number 1 rule for open source projects: Never ask for ETA.



+1
Alex really does good job for the ML for 5D3. I have used his ML for 5D3 for about 1 year, and glad to see the improvement every month. I just cannot image how much effort he put on this project.



Rockets95 said:


> This is probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyway - is this for photo, video, or both?



This is for both. For me, ML add more valuable video feature on 5D3. It make your 5D3 like a 5000+ camera. Please check Magic Lantern website for more information.
http://www.magiclantern.fm/


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## Alver (Jan 18, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*


Magic Lantern can be turned off or even removed without much effort.
[/quote]

Do you mean ML RAW for the *5D mkIII*?! Can it really be completely removed so the camera starts without lag? Please describe how it is possible!
The impossibility of the boot flag reset (= warranty loss) ist the only thing that stops me and thousands other people from trying the ML RAW. So far I could not find any way to do it.


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## leGreve (Jan 18, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Alver said:


> The impossibility of the boot flag reset (= warranty loss) ist the only thing that stops me and thousands other people from trying the ML RAW. So far I could not find any way to do it.



We have got to kill that myth…

You will ONLY void the part of the warranty that has to do with the software and firmware of the camera.

Say fx, you install ML… and within two weeks, your accidentally break the LCD or a button comes off or what ever. Those things are still covered. It's impossible to void anything that has not directly to do with the things that ML changes.

Having said that…. I haven't had a single issue with ML on my 5D3. And since you keep ML in the SD card slot and record to the CF card slot, you can remove ML pretty easily… simply power off, remove SD card, remove battery, and you are back to the old Canon again.


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## Alver (Jan 18, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



leGreve said:


> you can remove ML pretty easily… simply power off, remove SD card, remove battery, and you are back to the old Canon again.



Not with this build, not with 5D mk III, as far as I know:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9214.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5719.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5810.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6035.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7125.0

etc.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 19, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Alver said:


> The impossibility of the boot flag reset (= warranty loss) ist the only thing that stops me and thousands other people from trying the ML RAW.



We have no way to verify that, but my personal feeling is that you're wrong here. I do hope and am confident the bootflag removal will also work on 5d3 sooner or later, but from what I read from other users on cameras that let you remove ML w/o any trace there are other issues beside that.

Often, you read FUD that ML is a "hack" and "unsafe", something might go wrong when installing it, it might interfere with normal camera operation. Once the bootflag removal is there, these arguments will pop up again, imho if you want 5d3 ml and are a "ML user type" nothing stops you from using it right now *unless* you are actually planing to sell the camera and fear the buyer complain about a 1sec boot delay. People that are just unsure and a bit uncomfortable about the whole ML thing won't change their mind anyway.


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## leGreve (Jan 19, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Alver said:


> leGreve said:
> 
> 
> > you can remove ML pretty easily… simply power off, remove SD card, remove battery, and you are back to the old Canon again.
> ...



Yes with this build also…. ML is on the SD card… not on the camera. What is done to the camera that might be irreversible is the boot flag and the boot time. But who the heck cares really… if you need a 0.2 sec. wake up time, don't mess with ML, easy as that.

If you want awesome functionallity beyond what Canon was willing to give, including filming raw video, then get ML.

Follow the ML install instructions and put ML files on the SD card.

If you some day get tired of ML again and want the original camera, just download Canon firmware 2.3 instead, and that will remove everything except the boot flag.

Stop fearing this….. ML has really improved the 5D!

Here's a couple of tests I did last year with raw:

https://vimeo.com/69840853

https://vimeo.com/70150221


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## tron (Jan 19, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Marsu42 said:


> Alver said:
> 
> 
> > The impossibility of the boot flag reset (= warranty loss) ist the only thing that stops me and thousands other people from trying the ML RAW.
> ...


It is not only the boot delay, it is the wake up delay as well and this is immensely more frustrating as I had the opportunity to experience with my 5D2. But at least with 5DMk2 I can remove it on the fly and then install it again...


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## Marsu42 (Jan 19, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



tron said:


> But at least with 5DMk2 I can remove it on the fly and then install it again...



Hmmm, I wouldn't do this since enabling the in-camera bootflag and removing it is the situation where things can really go wrong (like a power loss while flashing the fw) - unlike most routers, the camera has no "u-boot" mode so when you mis-flash it it's bricked for good.

Btw there seem to be vastly different feelings on how fast the camera should boot, I have to admit I find 1-2 sec. nothing - if I switch it on when taking it out of the bag or wherever it is and then put grab it & put it to my eye the boot process is done. If you want zero startup time simple let it go to sleep instead of turning it off. I really don't want to mindlessly promote ML, but in this case I fail to see the severe issue.


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## tron (Jan 19, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Marsu42 said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > But at least with 5DMk2 I can remove it on the fly and then install it again...
> ...


It seems you didn't read the rest of my post. I used the term wake up. I was referring to waking from sleep delay and not the power on delay.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 19, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



tron said:


> I used the term wake up. I was referring to waking from sleep delay and not the power on delay.



Sorry, I read this as wake up from power off, please forgive me misunderstanding this.

Btw another part of good news from ML development: They will be able to reverse whatever trick Canon is using to cheat with fast lenses (since these capture less light on digital than film) - apparently the method currently used has unwanted side effects, so most likely there is no need for it when shooting raw: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9867.msg96850#msg96850



> Alright, so the side effects of Canon's ISO/aperture trick are:
> - small overflow at f1.4 (0.03 stops), larger at f1.2 (I guess 0.25 stops from DxO chart, link below). This results in highlight loss in the CR2.
> - histogram gaps indicating digital scaling (not quite good for denoising algorithms)
> - possible highlight loss in some raw editors (ufraw for sure; I'll fix it in ufraw-mod). To check your favorite editor, take two test shots, f1.6 normal and with lens unscrewed by holding the DOF button, and compare the highlights.



Please note that this is ongoing development, but as the information is available in the ML forum I think some people over here will also have an interest in what's coming up next and get more interested in the ML project.


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## ejenner (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

OK, I read the whole thread, interesting. I thought it was going to be several pages of 'whole ISO's' argument, but it's worth reading through.

Looks like ML team are going to figure out exactly what Canon is doing with their sensors.


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## Sella174 (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

OK, so if I understand this "breakthrough" correctly, then RAW isn't truly RAW.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Sella174 said:


> OK, so if I understand this "breakthrough" correctly, then RAW isn't truly RAW.



Not with faster lenses it isn't  as Canon adds digital brightness to compensate for the light loss. The most "raw" you get is with full stop iso, and ML now adds about 0.5ev more dynamic range on top of that... but in the current camera generations, every "raw" image is cooked to some extent.


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## Sella174 (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Marsu42 said:


> ... but in the current camera generations, every "raw" image is cooked to some extent.



Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?


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## Marsu42 (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Sella174 said:


> Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?



They're checking every raw converter out there for regressions, no problems yet... on the contrary: Canon's own raw cooking with fast lenses might create problems, ML is giving the raw converter the real data.


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## Niki (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Marsu42 said:


> Sella174 said:
> 
> 
> > Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?
> ...



CAN ML ACHIEVE 4K WITH THE 5D M3???? if so HOW???


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## R1-7D (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

Looks like I might be reinstalling magic lantern on my 5D2. I will leave it off my 5D3 for the time being. Should be quite interesting though!


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## ejenner (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Sella174 said:


> OK, so if I understand this "breakthrough" correctly, then RAW isn't truly RAW.



In never was in the sense that some gain (at least analog, and likely some digital) and ADC conversion is applied to the voltage coming off the sensor. Plus you then have to fit the voltage reading into 14 bit digital. So there is always going to be some 'manipulation' of the signal. Raw really just means the data has not been converted to an image, lots can still go on before that (e.g. even dark frame subtraction results in a 'raw' image).


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## leGreve (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Niki said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Sella174 said:
> ...



You could but its a bit troublesome and a bit heavy to work with to be honest. And it wont be true 4K.

What you do is shoot 2.5k raw then bring it into adobe camera raw and set the output size larger than it is... Ie 4k. It should still look amazing but alas take quite a while to convert the dngs into 4k tiffs.


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## tron (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Niki said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Sella174 said:
> ...


Copied from ML F.A.Q page:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/faq.html
Troll Questions
...
I am new here I dont know anything about coding [...] I want to be able to shoot Raw and 4K
Why stop at 4k? Why not 8K? Download the 16K firmware and give it a try. Here's a sample video: Video recorded with T2i 4k Firmware


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

[quote author=Marsu42]

Btw another part of good news from ML development: They will be able to reverse whatever trick Canon is using to cheat with fast lenses (since these capture less light on digital than film) 
[/quote]

Wait, what? Can you elaborate? Are you saying that since sensor sensitivites aren't 1:1 with film speeds, canon secrets more gain to compensate? And they only do it for fast lenses? And they do it on a per aperture basis? I'd never heard of this. It seems quite weird.

And it's weirder when one considers that sensor sensitivites aren't even 1:1 with eachother. As someone who only rarely uses film, I care little whether my digital camera at ISO130 exposes the same as Plus-X to within .03 stops, for example.


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## cayenne (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



leGreve said:


> Alver said:
> 
> 
> > leGreve said:
> ...



Which 5D do you have? 1,2 or 3?

Again, I'm dying to try this ML on my 5D3, but I'm not willing to do so at this time, due to an irreversible change (the boot flag).

And, from what I've read on all the ML forums, there are lag times in boot and waking from sleep significantly *more *than .2 seconds.

If you only have one 5D3 and it is your main workhorse, these are serious issues to be concerned with. You cannot get rid of the lag by removing ML at this time, from everything I've read on the forums.

C


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## DanielW (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Marsu42 said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > I used the term wake up. I was referring to waking from sleep delay and not the power on delay.
> ...



Congratulations for the politeness!


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## AtSea (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

Is anyone able to translate into lamens' terms what their latest findings indicate/what the hurdle currently is? From my understanding they're trying to figure out exactly what Canon's processing is doing to RAW images in order to see exactly what their DR shift has done?


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## Marsu42 (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



AtSea said:


> From my understanding they're trying to figure out exactly what Canon's processing is doing to RAW images in order to see exactly what their DR shift has done?



Much simpler than that: For reasons unknown, Canon is simply throwing away 1/3-1/2 stops of dynamic range, you can recover that by changing some setting in the camera. Plus the "trick" from Canon to compensate the light loss inherent to faster lenses is not beneficial if you shoot raw, so ML is working on a way to give you the "real" raw data.


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## Woody (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Marsu42 said:


> Much simpler than that: For reasons unknown, Canon is simply throwing away 1/3-1/2 stops of dynamic range, you can recover that by changing some setting in the camera. Plus the "trick" from Canon to compensate the light loss inherent to faster lenses is not beneficial if you shoot raw, so ML is working on a way to give you the "real" raw data.



And on the 6D, one may be able to recover as much as 2/3 stop of dynamic range? Wow.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Woody said:


> And on the 6D, one may be able to recover as much as 2/3 stop of dynamic range? Wow.



Nope, it's about the same as on 5d3, about 1/2 stop - so the 6d keeps "just" the ~1ev advantage on higher iso vs 5d3... I clarified this in the first post.


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## AtSea (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Marsu42 said:


> AtSea said:
> 
> 
> > From my understanding they're trying to figure out exactly what Canon's processing is doing to RAW images in order to see exactly what their DR shift has done?
> ...



Now, could this have to do with the way the highlights or shadows are rendered 'past the brink' so to speak - Canon wasn't yet comfortable with it at those extremes so they set a limiter of sorts? 

Anyway, very excited about seeing this in action and some examples along with it. Thanks for all of the hard work, it's great news for us.


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## HadMatter (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

It says that in order to achieve the 15 stops dynamic range, you need to use this in combination with the dual ISO module. Would that result in extra noise or any other image degradation that comes from shooting in higher ISOs? What's the IQ like when using this? 

I'm very excited by this as I was quite tempted to pull the trigger on the A7R. 


(PS: Hi, I'm a long-time lurker, first time poster)


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## tron (Jan 23, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

There is no extra noise. Instead there is less. This is the concept. There is less noise so the shadows can be increased more.
But I guess the maximum DR advantage would be at ISO 100. Now I hope they do the same for 5D2...


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## East Wind Photography (Jan 23, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Marsu42 said:


> Breakthrough at Magic Lantern, imho this elevates it to a must-have and makes Canon look really stupid: They at last figured out what the digic registers having to do with iso are, and by fine-tuning them your camera *now gets an additional 1/2 stop and more of dynamic range,* no strings attached. Just use +1/2 stop of ec (ML also has ec in m mode, just like the new 1dx fw) and you're done.
> 
> This means that for example on 5d3, iso 800 with ML has more dynamic range than iso 100 with Canon :-> ... and at high iso you're getting 7% more dr which is nothing to sneeze at, esp. since it builds upon Canon's advantage vs. Nikon: [email protected] = ~8.3 & [email protected] = ~9.4 ev making good ol' Canon the superior sensor for low light high contrast shooting, esp. the newer 6d.
> 
> ...



Great report. I havent had a chance to try any of this. Wonderiing what effect all of this has on drive mode frame rates?


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## dude (Jan 23, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

Does anyone think Canon is reading this stuff because I am baffled as to why they would cut shot the DR and cheat on RAW's with fast lenses.


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## weixing (Jan 23, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



dude said:


> Does anyone think Canon is reading this stuff because I am baffled as to why they would cut shot the DR and cheat on RAW's with fast lenses.


Hi,
IMHO, commercial product don't push their product to the limit... they usually hold back to ensure reliability... it's just like computer when you can overclock the processor on your custom made PC to the limit, but most major brand PC manufacturer won't overclock the same processor on their PC to that limit.

Have a nice day.


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## funkboy (Jan 23, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



Alver said:


> The impossibility of the boot flag reset (= warranty loss) ist the only thing that stops me and thousands other people from trying the ML RAW. So far I could not find any way to do it.



A Canon rep was quoted on the record as saying something to the effect of:



> There's no way to "void" your warranty on a Canon camera. There is only the question of "covered" repairs and "uncovered" repairs. If the camera is still within the warranty period, the specific repair request you're submitting will be evaluated by the repair center as "covered" or "uncovered" based on whether the issue is determined to have been caused by a problem covered by our warranty policy.



Google it a bit & I'm sure you'll find it.

Basically it means that if you change the boot flag in all likelyhood the only warranty repair that wouldn't be covered would be if the camera was determined to be damaged by you monkeying with the firmware.

...which is a much better policy than e.g. certain Android phone makers that say "sure we'll give you the knob so you can unlock the bootloader, but don't expect us to repair your phone if the camera module dies".


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## Marsu42 (Jan 23, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



funkboy said:


> ...which is a much better policy than e.g. certain Android phone makers that say "sure we'll give you the knob so you can unlock the bootloader, but don't expect us to repair your phone if the camera module dies".



I'm sure this depends a lot on local law, but in the EU/Germany it was ruled again and again that tampering with a product doesn't automatically void all warranty even if the manufacturer says so. This esp. concerns badges "warranty void if removed", but will also apply for example to mechanical failure which has nothing to do with the installed ML.


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## Scott_McPhee (Jan 24, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*

Is this the new nightly build for the 5D3 that adds this?

Latest Build

Built on: 2014-01-24 00:11:15 +0000
Changeset: 42c206c28f3a8b33e04ac075f66526dcf55901bc

I am really interested to try this on my 5D3 as I have seen some wonderful shots taken using features such as dual ISO but just concerned, as we all are, of damage to the camera.

I work with a single 5D3 and have heard about boot times being much longer.
Also, how does any settings I have like AFMA and Canon stock settings work along with ML - are they still used?

Sorry for the questions, ML newbie here!


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## cayenne (Jan 24, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



funkboy said:


> Alver said:
> 
> 
> > The impossibility of the boot flag reset (= warranty loss) ist the only thing that stops me and thousands other people from trying the ML RAW. So far I could not find any way to do it.
> ...



I"m actually no that worried about the warranty stuff....

I'm more concerned with the long boot and wakeup times that seem to also be a permanent change even if you remove the ML software.


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## John Thomas (Jan 25, 2014)

The critical question:

*Does ML work with the latest 5D3 firmware?*

The version 1.2.3 of the firmware has enough time now in our cameras, however ML supports (AFAIS) just 1.1.3

It is so hard to fix / test it against 1.2.3?


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## flowers (Feb 2, 2014)

*Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.*



leGreve said:


> Alver said:
> 
> 
> > The impossibility of the boot flag reset (= warranty loss) ist the only thing that stops me and thousands other people from trying the ML RAW. So far I could not find any way to do it.
> ...



Actually, not correct (unless they have changed their mind at Canon). Canon firmware is still covered. It will not be covered only if Canon comes to the conclusion that the fault was directly caused by the ML firmware and not Canon firmware. A slight but important distinction.


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## flowers (Feb 2, 2014)

John Thomas said:


> The critical question:
> 
> *Does ML work with the latest 5D3 firmware?*
> 
> ...



Every new firmware is different from the previous and requires a lot of additional testing to be even remotely safe and functional.
1.1.3 with ML will give you a lot more than 1.2.3 without ML. ML is already free, you really shouldn't complain.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 2, 2014)

John Thomas said:


> It is so hard to fix / test it against 1.2.3?



It's not hard, but time-intensive because all the addresses of the Canon fw functions have changed, and some function themselves might have. As Canon provides no documentation, all this has to been done by hand which is a lot of work and no progress at all for the ML code itself.

Please visit the ML forum and volunteer to help out a couple of days for free finding these pointers, it isn't hard as you theorized, all has to be done is wading through the ROM dump doing trial & error: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum ... afterwards you can then help me comment on people's "I want free work for my 5d3 from people who cannot even afford a 6d" attitude over here


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## eyeland (Feb 2, 2014)

In regards to the boot delay, it will feel like an instant after you realize how time-consuming the RAW video post workflow is


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## East Wind Photography (Feb 2, 2014)

So is it really possible to downgrade a 5d3 from 1.2.3 to the required 1.1.3? The 1.2.3 fw docs state that it is not possible to revert back.


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## tron (Feb 2, 2014)

eyeland said:


> In regards to the boot delay, it will feel like an instant after you realize how time-consuming the RAW video post workflow is


This is comparing apples to oranges: Post workflow with shooting!

BUT, this is not the main issue with the delay. The main issue is the wake up delay (yes there is wake up delay with ML). Power off is one case, waking from sleep is 10-100 fold more often...


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## Marsu42 (Feb 2, 2014)

tron said:


> BUT, this is not the main issue with the delay. The main issue is the wake up delay (yes there is wake up delay with ML). Power off is one case, waking from sleep is 10-100 fold more often...



I have to say you're reporting this is the first time I've ever heard this - but then again, I'm on 6d where the boot delay seems to be much shorter anyway. Feel free to report your issue to the ml forum, they can probably find a way to improve sleep wakeup time - unlike the boot delay when ML gets loaded in the first place.


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## tron (Feb 2, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > BUT, this is not the main issue with the delay. The main issue is the wake up delay (yes there is wake up delay with ML). Power off is one case, waking from sleep is 10-100 fold more often...
> ...


I am saying this because I do not consider the boot time a significant issue. The issue (wake up delay) is reproducible with my 5D2 actually and the feeling is that this delay makes press the shutter button more than once to activate the camera. It was frustrating until I realized it that it was due to ML. I uninstalled ML, saw that my 5D2 is responsive and then installed ML again. It was nice to know that if I need this speed I will simply uninstall ML and then reinstall it (actually that's why I keep the .fir file with the nightly build. So no issues as long as I uninstall it when I need to


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## Scott_McPhee (Feb 3, 2014)

Some more info on a possible ML for 1.2.3 here:

https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/pull-request/354/ported-ml-over-to-5d3-firmware-123/diff


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## tron (Feb 3, 2014)

Scott_McPhee said:


> Some more info on a possible ML for 1.2.3 here:
> 
> https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/pull-request/354/ported-ml-over-to-5d3-firmware-123/diff


Very encouraging. If they also make it capable of boot flag removal I believe it will skyrocket both ML and use of 5D3 for landscapes (thanks to dual_iso module).


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## Marsu42 (Feb 3, 2014)

tron said:


> If they also make it capable of boot flag removal I believe it will skyrocket both ML and use of 5D3 for landscapes (thanks to dual_iso module).



The dual_iso module is designed for moving high-dr scenes, for landscape you want to do real bracketing as this doesn't lose detail in the highlights and shadows.


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## tron (Feb 3, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > If they also make it capable of boot flag removal I believe it will skyrocket both ML and use of 5D3 for landscapes (thanks to dual_iso module).
> ...


Yes but sometimes there are leaves that move... 
But, even with no moveable parts I still prefer to sacrifice some (slight) resolution and get a single raw file to begin with. Maybe I was talking for myself but I consider Dual_Iso a HUGE advantage of ML...


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## Marsu42 (Feb 4, 2014)

tron said:


> Yes but sometimes there are leaves that move...



Good point, as that also counts as "landscape"...



tron said:


> But, even with no moveable parts I still prefer to sacrifice some (slight) resolution and get a single raw file to begin with.



Indeed, that's why I'm so annoyed unlike the 5d3, the 6d doesn't do raw in-camera hdr (thanks, Canon!)



tron said:


> Maybe I was talking for myself but I consider Dual_Iso a HUGE advantage of ML...



It is, but dual_iso also has more noise (since it's interlaced with higher iso) and still unsolved wb issues in the acr workflow, plus it needs double the storage - once for the original cr2 to profit from cr2hdr advancements, and once again for the converted dng. For me it's best to take nice static scenes as real bracketing, but dual_iso is nice for "just gimme more dr" if the result doesn't need to have the best iq.


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## Sella174 (Feb 4, 2014)

How much of all this will be down-pulled to the EOS 5D camera?


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## Marsu42 (Feb 4, 2014)

Sella174 said:


> How much of all this will be down-pulled to the EOS 5D camera?



The 5dc? Probably nothing as it's currently in an unmaintained state - look in the ml forum if someone has stepped up since I last looked.


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## funkboy (Feb 7, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> It is, but dual_iso also has more noise (since it's interlaced with higher iso) and still unsolved wb issues in the acr workflow, plus it needs double the storage - once for the original cr2 to profit from cr2hdr advancements, and once again for the converted dng.



Any reason you wouldn't just dump the cr2 once you had the converted DNG?


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## Marsu42 (Feb 7, 2014)

funkboy said:


> Any reason you wouldn't just dump the cr2 once you had the converted DNG?



Because alex keeps improving cr2hdr all the time, next up is floating point dng because it allows more resolution from dual_iso output ... but to profit from that, you have to have the original cr2s available.


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## canonvoir (Feb 7, 2014)

Any reason why Alex hasn't be snatched up by Canon?


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## Marsu42 (Feb 7, 2014)

canonvoir said:


> Any reason why Alex hasn't be snatched up by Canon?



He likes to innovate, Canon doesn't :->


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## cliffwang (Feb 7, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> canonvoir said:
> 
> 
> > Any reason why Alex hasn't be snatched up by Canon?
> ...



lol
He might not be welcomed by Canon's firmware department because all developers there hate him.


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## funkboy (Feb 7, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> funkboy said:
> 
> 
> > Any reason you wouldn't just dump the cr2 once you had the converted DNG?
> ...



Awesome, that's really interesting. So can these cr2hd files that it puts out still be read by LR/ACR? Feel fee to point me to documentation or a FAQ or something.

I've been keeping a lazy eye on how things are coming along for the 6D (e.g. tragic lantern), wondering when it'll be stable enough for me to take the plunge...


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## cliffwang (Feb 7, 2014)

funkboy said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > funkboy said:
> ...



cr2hd will convert dual ISO cr2 file to DNG file format. Actually the converted DNG files are the files you need, not the cr2 files. However, you want to keep the cr2 files because Alex is keep improve his cr2hd program and you can always use the new version of cr2hd to get better converted DNG files.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 8, 2014)

funkboy said:


> I've been keeping a lazy eye on how things are coming along for the 6D (e.g. tragic lantern), wondering when it'll be stable enough for me to take the plunge...



Don't count on anything happening there, the 6d is unsupported in mainline ML and 6d-TL is only worked on by one person who managed to isolate himself from the rest of the devs. If you want a stable & supported ML anytime soon, definitely don't get a 6d.


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## funkboy (Feb 8, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Don't count on anything happening there, the 6d is unsupported in mainline ML and 6d-TL is only worked on by one person who managed to isolate himself from the rest of the devs. If you want a stable & supported ML anytime soon, definitely don't get a 6d.



Thanks for shedding some light on that, good to know.


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## cayenne (Feb 10, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> funkboy said:
> 
> 
> > I've been keeping a lazy eye on how things are coming along for the 6D (e.g. tragic lantern), wondering when it'll be stable enough for me to take the plunge...
> ...



What are the main models of cameras the devs are focusing on right now?


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## Marsu42 (Feb 10, 2014)

cayenne said:


> What are the main models of cameras the devs are focusing on right now?



Alex (the "main" dev) has a 60d & 5d3, 5d2 is still popular, the Rebels are supported as long as you don't get the newest one because usually not all features are ported. The "maintainted" models as per source tree are (7d/5d3 are alpha):

5D2.212
5D3.113
7D.203
50D.109
60D.111
500D.111
550D.109
600D.102
650D.104
700D.111
1100D.105


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## flowers (Feb 10, 2014)

cayenne said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > funkboy said:
> ...


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## cayenne (Feb 10, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > What are the main models of cameras the devs are focusing on right now?
> ...



Thanks.

I'm still patiently (trying) watching to see when the ML for the 5D3 gets out of alpha....and addresses the non-removable boot flag, or at the very least...the lag time the 5D3 has on boot or waken from sleep.

If that was fixed, I think I'd be loading ML on immediately and playing with RAW video...

I'm DYING to play with that...but I just gotta see the wake problems fixed first. I could live with the perm. boot flag as that my camera is out of warranty.....but I gotta have at least stock waken times.

C


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