# Firmware update for 5D3 Problem? Black halos around stars in RAW



## pedro (Sep 8, 2012)

Hi,
Still enthusiastic about my 5D3 but...Did some night sky photography last night a*nd detected in all the frames black shadows around certain star clusters*, no matter what ISO setting it was.

Guess I've seen this in early reports about the 5D3 in March or April. So as I bought it exactly for this kind of photography...What can I do? Did I get a lemon? Serial number: 04230012696. bought the cam on August 27 from a retail dealer...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/7956396466/#in/photostream


Thanks for your help. Cheers, Pedro.

Here's the dpr thread about it
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&message=40779387&changemode=1


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## GuyF (Sep 8, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 Problem black halos around stars in RAW files...hmm*

The black circles seem to appear only around the stars that look to be clipped by the exposure. That may have something to do with it - possibly coupled to the amount of sharpening used too. Have you tried less sharpening? Can you give any other exif data?

Then again, maybe you've discovered a new astronomical phenomenon!


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## risc32 (Sep 8, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 Problem black halos around stars in RAW files...hmm*

I can't say but what about the fact that your points of light are ovals? I thought i'd see batwings but they all look like uniform ovals. seems weird to me, but i don't have much exp with astro work, and i usually don't do much pixel peeping. esp when it come to my astro stuff, as it's just a mess to begin with. I tend to throw standards out the window, and just hope i can get something interesting, leaving the technically awesome stuff for nasa. But there are some guys on here that are fairly heavy into this, hopefully your get some info from them. Did you use long exposure NR?


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## pedro (Sep 8, 2012)

*@GuyF, risc32* thanks for your concern. 

The phenomenum appears in RAW. 
Sharpening mode setting is the in camera setting 3.
yes, I applied long expsoure NR, after the picture was taken.

There was a firmware update (1.1.3) out by June but as far as I could read, it did not address the black halo phenomenum.

Here's a full exif sample at mRAW (or is it related to mRAW?)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/7956960556/#in/photostream

The black halos aren't "visible" at print size, but they appear as strange clusters...

Hope Canon gets this fixed by the next firmware update.
*Anyone out there having the same problems while doing night sky?

*


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 9, 2012)

There is another thread from a person seeing white X's on a black background. You might compare notes with the poster, however, he did not yet post a image. It sounds like a similar issue.


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## GuyF (Sep 9, 2012)

I took a look at your link and can only suggest the points look a bit like hot pixels (assuming not all hot pixels would go red). I'm only speculating but maybe a combination of higher ISO and long exposure has caused them to get a bit hot. 

Were you taking a number of long exposure shots in quick succession? This could produce hot pixels. Perhaps our resident guru Neuro might know.


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## wockawocka (Sep 9, 2012)

One thing to remember with any long exposure is the sensor will get hot.

Hot sensor = not good for IQ.

If this 25 second exposure was one of several you can expect to see distortions like this. Often.
The 1Ds3 did similar if you did several in a row but the distortions were red.

Try it again but give a few minutes between each. There's a very good reason why the worlds leading telescopes are supercooled with liquid nitrogen....

At ISO6400 you are pushing the sensor 6 stops harder than it's native ISO, thus 6 times the amplification, which is driven by electricity. In an enclosed space. You should really be saying 'look at how much clarity there is' rather than 'I need a firmware fix'.

Also, turn all sharpening off in camera and selectively do it instead as ANY sharpening will enhance the distortion.

There's a fine line on the 5D3 where the heat will build quicker than it will dissipate. I wouldn't go above ISO1600. Just because you have it on your camera doesn't mean to say you should be using it.


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## pedro (Sep 9, 2012)

GuyF said:


> I took a look at your link and can only suggest the points look a bit like hot pixels (assuming not all hot pixels would go red). I'm only speculating but maybe a combination of higher ISO and long exposure has caused them to get a bit hot.
> 
> Were you taking a number of long exposure shots in quick succession? This could produce hot pixels. Perhaps our resident guru Neuro might know.



You are right. I took about 45 pictures within 15 minutes, mostly way up to ISOs as high as insane 51k and 102k. Absolutely unusable, though. Well, Neuro, may have another take on that too 8)

*@wockawocka:* thanks for your input as well! I will take less pictures. I followed examples seen on flickr concerning nightphotography. But yes, I will take it slower next time. As I aimed at "testing" the ISOs for the first time outside, there was a good thread in nightphotography on here, 1Dx vs 5d3 in ISO...Your input will be considered next time I am outside. The only thing is, *that it started to look like this right after the first picture * I took...as seen in post. Therefore I cannot be a 100% sure if that is a heat issue only...or at least not while I was starting to take pictures...otherwise I just know too less about any camera tech to judge on this...Thanks anyway, your input as all the others is much appreciated! Cheers.


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## wockawocka (Sep 9, 2012)

What you're ambient temperature too.

A sensors at 15 degrees will take longer to heat up than one at 30 degrees etc.

Just keep experimenting!


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## GuyF (Sep 9, 2012)

45 long exposure shots in 15 minutes? Yeah, that oughta do it! The sensor has to cool down a bit between these types of shot.

Just because it can also do video for long periods doesn't mean the sensor is used in the same way.


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## nubu (Sep 9, 2012)

I am more or less certain that these halos are sharpening artefacts around saturated stars! Switch off any sharpening and they should go away! It has noting to do with the length of your exposures. The chip does NOT heat up during long exposures. Its heats up from frequent readouts as during live view and video! Yes the dark current is higher when the temperature is higher and my only suggestion would be to wait a few seconds after a longer period of live view but not after long exposures. Actually the chip cools during a long exposure. one can easily test this by taking long dark exposures (cap on). The signal S that you can measure is a bias level B and a time dependent dark current d times t (e.g. seconds) leading to S = B + d x t. Measure the B with a short exposure and then do multiple exposures of diffent length t. You will see that d is constant or even goes down when the camera cools in the cold outside air... (you have also to switch off long exposure noise reduction!). Better correct for the dark current by subtracting a(or many) dark picture(s) of the same length... (free DeepSkyStacker does this job nicely)


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## bkorcel (Sep 9, 2012)

I suspect that it may be an issue with light bleeding to the adjacent pixels. It becomes apparent with long exposures where stars become saturated. It could also be an impact from the antialiasing filter used in front of the chip.

Honestly the image looks great. Don't pixel peep so much and enjoy the image in its full spendor.

If you are really interested in cropping astrophotos you should consider the 60Da which removes the antialiasing filter.


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## pedro (Sep 9, 2012)

bkorcel, nubu,GuyF,wockawocka: Thank you for your inputs. I will take them into practice. It helps me a lot as I thought I had a defective device. But, as in most cases: It's always the dude behind the cam 8) What a privilege to live in this century, with helpful mates around the web! You're great folks.


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## Bosman (Sep 9, 2012)

I have just discovered this recently. I am concerned. Hasn't this been a problem on other Canon cameras in the past where there was a fix?
Check out the bright spot on her lip and veil. White orbs encircled with black. Yikes!

By the way this was a jpeg file at 1600 iso and i don't believe overheating had a thing to do with it since it was a huge place and i had ot get the bride in position on the balcony far far away.


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## wockawocka (Sep 9, 2012)

Looks like blown highlights to me. The light on the shiny point of her lip and the sequin of her veil catching it in exactly the wrong position.
It looks quite poor for ISO1600 too, (is this part of a larger image or have you pulled the exposure)?


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## Bosman (Sep 9, 2012)

wockawocka said:


> Looks like blown highlights to me. The light on the shiny point of her lip and the sequin of her veil catching it in exactly the wrong position.


Well sure it got blown in those tiny spots but being outlined in black is an artifact, un-natural to what an eye would see.


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## Aglet (Sep 9, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> There is another thread from a person seeing white X's on a black background. You might compare notes with the poster, however, he did not yet post a image. It sounds like a similar issue.



that sounds a bit more like de-bayering working around a bad pixel


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## risc32 (Sep 9, 2012)

didn't that fuji 1x100 have this same problem, and a firmware tweak helped. Actually, the first thing i thought when i saw it was that someone had cranked the "velocity modulation scanning" . it's a hold over from when i did ISF calibrations on monitors. but it still makes me wonder if they are doing something like that in firmware with these images.


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## Bosman (Sep 9, 2012)

Didn't the 7d also have this early on?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 9, 2012)

Bosman said:


> Didn't the 7d also have this early on?


The 5D MK II had issues with highlights, and was fixed in firmware. However, users have tested their 5D MK III's for the issue and haven't found it, at least not in any high percentage of the cameras.
That said, individual cameras can have a issue and need to be adjusted or replaced, it can happen. The original issue with the 5D MK II was nowhere as bad as the image with the spot on her lip, that is really bad.


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## nubu (Sep 9, 2012)

For those starting this "black orb" discussion please post a raw pic showing this somewhere. Then we can have a look at it. Posting oversharpened (e.g. default settings of unsharp masking in dpp is horrible!) jpgs does not help. I am still convinced that this is a postprocessing artfact of an highly overexposed pixel....


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## epsiloneri (Sep 9, 2012)

I agree with nubu. Looks like a postprocessing artefact (sharpening filter, NR).


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## Bosman (Sep 9, 2012)

You don't need this full version, this isn't from processing. What you see with your eye is what is there, you won't find new data that will change the fact of the black haloed circles you see. Also to be clear this is unprocessed.


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## epsiloneri (Sep 9, 2012)

pedro said:


> *Anyone out there having the same problems while doing night sky?*


Yes, I happened to take a night shot with stars using a 5D3 yesterday, and I see this precise phenomenom for saturated stars when the default sharpening is used (just tested). When I turn sharpening off, the black halos disappear. I just tried it but am to lazy to produce screenshots for you... just try it yourself. Using unsharp mask as a "sharpening" filter is particularly good at producing black halos.


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## Bosman (Sep 9, 2012)

Ok, for you who can't believe. I cannot post a 7.3 mg file here and if i shrink it to do so won't there be another reason why this is a processing issue? Sorry, i am annoyed by the comments. When i say it hasn't been processed and what is going on with images then it is still suggested i am lying and that it in fact has been sharpened, it bugs me a little. Sorry, maybe i am in a bad mood about it now.


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## epsiloneri (Sep 9, 2012)

*Re: 5D3 Problem black halos around stars in RAW files...hmm*



risc32 said:


> I can't say but what about the fact that your points of light are ovals?


Since your question hasn't been addressed yet... the 'ovals' are due to motion blur.


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## epsiloneri (Sep 9, 2012)

Bosman said:


> When i say it hasn't been processed and what is going on with images then it is still suggested i am lying and that it in fact has been sharpened, it bugs me a little.


I was commenting on Pedro's image. In your case it looks like hot pixels with demosaicing artefacts. Are the bright spots in your picture visible at the same pixel positions in other pictures taken at the same time with similar settings? There's _always_ processing going on in producing images, it doesn't need to be the _post_-processing that introduces problems.


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## wockawocka (Sep 9, 2012)

Bosman said:


> wockawocka said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like blown highlights to me. The light on the shiny point of her lip and the sequin of her veil catching it in exactly the wrong position.
> ...



Could you send me the RAW file if I sent you my details?


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## Bosman (Sep 9, 2012)

wockawocka said:


> Bosman said:
> 
> 
> > wockawocka said:
> ...


I could, just pm me. It is jpeg.


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## Bosman (Sep 9, 2012)

epsiloneri said:


> Bosman said:
> 
> 
> > When i say it hasn't been processed and what is going on with images then it is still suggested i am lying and that it in fact has been sharpened, it bugs me a little.
> ...


I am sorry, I apologize for being wrong about that. I didn't have any extra processes in camera, all that was off at the time. I have since allowed standard noise reduction in camera since it does so well. But yea I figure a firmware fix would be in order, but i don't know.


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## wockawocka (Sep 9, 2012)

Bosman said:


> wockawocka said:
> 
> 
> > Bosman said:
> ...



Ah, will need the RAW file. Jpeg compression does all kinds of crap to the file, not to mention any adjustments Canon decides to apply (even with everything switched off in camera)....which I'm sure they do.


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## pedro (Sep 9, 2012)

epsiloneri said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > *Anyone out there having the same problems while doing night sky?*
> ...



Well, yours is a very valid point. After reading the tips provided by fellow posters, I went back and put the RAW sharpness settings and unsharp masking to zero before converting the file to TIFF and: halos are gone. So there is a simple cure to all that. Then in post in CS2 I just did some unsharp masking and that was it. Very satisfied about the result halo wise. But I also will take care next time and won't do 45 shots within 15 minutes!
Here's the new sample. I took these RAWs in mRAW. 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/7963652382/#


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 9, 2012)

I went thru my 5D MK III images looking for a situation like yours, but could not find one. Here is a image of the sun reflecting off a gazing globe. Its a 100% crop, but no black ring. It is not badly blown out, but, if there were a issue, I'd expect to see it here.

This is a straight conversion from raw to jpg in LR 4, all the settings are nominal, no sharpening or NR.


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## epsiloneri (Sep 9, 2012)

pedro said:


> But I also will take care next time and won't do 45 shots within 15 minutes!


I have taken long-exposure (30s) shots continously for hours (star trails!) without noticing any significant increase in noise, so I'm not sure this is a real problem. It should be very easy to find out though: do you notice a significant noise increase in your last image (when the sensor is "heated up") compared to your first image (with the sensor still at ambient) of that 15 min interval?


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## epsiloneri (Sep 9, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Here is a image of the sun reflecting off a gazing globe. Its a 100% crop, but no black ring.


The effect is more pronounced the greater the contrast (steep brightness gradient) and smaller the blown image, i.e. stars and hot pixels are ideal to produce dark halos. The sun in your image is more extended and bright also outside the saturated region, so sharpening shouldn't produce as easily visible halos. 



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> This is a straight conversion from raw to jpg in LR 4, all the settings are nominal, no sharpening or NR.


Isn't sharpening applied when using nominal settings? (I'm not too familiar with LR4, but other software apply it by default) If you push sharpening using unsharp mask I'm sure you can produce a dark halo around the bright dot in the right hemisphere. Just to illustrate the effect. (looking closer at your image there actually seems to be a dark edge to the white spots [not the sun] - implying some sharpening may have actually taken place?)


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## epsiloneri (Sep 9, 2012)

pedro said:


> I went back and put the RAW sharpness settings and unsharp masking to zero before converting the file to TIFF and: halos are gone.


You can also reduce the halos in unsharp mask by playing with the unsharp radius, e.g. making it much bigger removes background on a larger, smoother scale. You can increase the brilliance of the stars quite a bit by doing this (by reducing the sky haze), but have to take care to not introduce artefacts on large scales, e.g. foreground objects like the mountains in your case (or the dark lanes in the milky way). You can get around this by using masks etc, but I'm starting to get off topic.


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## wockawocka (Sep 9, 2012)

Yeah lightroom has default sharpening at +25


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 9, 2012)

epsiloneri said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a image of the sun reflecting off a gazing globe. Its a 100% crop, but no black ring.
> ...


I set all the sliders for sharpening, NR, etc to zero. Other settings like brightness, highlights, etc were at the zero position.
LR does not actually have a default sharpness, you can set it and save it for different ISO levels of your cameras as well as setup it to process images with pre determined colors, etc. However, you can turn all the settings bacxk to zero. Lightroom does not actually change the image, it just saves settings for each image in a database, and they can be zeroed or changed at any time. Then, when you render a image to jpeg or other format, the settings are burned in for that exported image, but the original is unchanged.
The white spots are deposits left by birds going to our feeded, and indeed might have some black or various colors in them, so I'd not try to judge them from the photo.
As noted, I did not have a blown out image from my 5D MK III, it does a very good job of setting the exposure, and we did not have many sunny days when I was testing it.


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## Bosman (Sep 10, 2012)

Canon has asked me to send them this file i screen shot. I just sent it so maybe later today or tomorrow i'll hear back from them.


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## THX723 (Sep 10, 2012)

Curiously enough, I did come across this black halo/ring phenomenal about a month ago. It was a night shot of the city and all around the bright city lights where these mysterious black rings. It was shot in RAW. No post processing. I will post the photo after I get home tonight. 

I was a bit concerned initially (5D2 black dots?), but after a _hasty_ Google search turned up nothing, I thought pleading ignorance would be the better part of valor. The fact is this was the first run-in after thousands of pictures taken (since 1st batch release); I brushed it off and never thought of it since.


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## THX723 (Sep 11, 2012)

Here's the crop ...

Edit: Upon a bit more investigation, this black halo is NOT present when using DPP. Might this be related to Lightroom 4? Will have to go back and double check my LR4 settings and report back.


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## jrista (Sep 11, 2012)

@Bosman and @pedro:

The issue looks like either a sharpening or possibly a demosaicing artifact to me. Keep in mind that, with RAW, the Cameras "Sharpness" setting is actually applied in post, either as part of demosaicing, or simply as a base sharpness setting (depends on the RAW processor). I know Pedro used a camera sharpness setting of 3...not sure what Bosman used. I would try dropping that to ZERO, see if the problem persists. If the RAW processor factors in the camera sharpness setting during demosaicing, then that might be the problem. I would try alternate RAW processors, particularly one that allows you to configure the demosaicing algorithm, and see if that may be the problem. There are a variety of free RAW processors, some that work for windows, many that only work for Linux. At the very least, you might be able to identify a demosaicing bug to report to whoever owns the tool(s) your using...either Adobe (ACR/LR) or Apple (Aperture) (as I presume you guys are using one of those.)

(If you want to give a Linux one like DarkTable a try, you could always pick up a preinstalled Linux Virtual image for VMWare Server and use a virtual machine on your windows dekstop.)


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## Bosman (Sep 11, 2012)

I don't have extra in camera sharpening and it was a jpeg file. Still no word back from Canon about it.


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## jrista (Sep 11, 2012)

Bosman said:


> I don't have extra in camera sharpening and it was a jpeg file. Still no word back from Canon about it.



If it was a JPEG, thats a whole different story than RAW. JPEG images are inherently processed, and compressed. An in-camera JPEG with halos would indeed be Canon's problem though, which is kind of a bummer.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 11, 2012)

THX723 said:


> Here's the crop ...
> 
> Edit: Upon a bit more investigation, this black halo is NOT present when using DPP. Might this be related to Lightroom 4? Will have to go back and double check my LR4 settings and report back.


Your LR settings are indeed a issue. Reset them to zero. If you have LR set to apply a ton of sharpening on inport, reset it to apply just a little, or none at all depending on the ISO.


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## THX723 (Sep 11, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Your LR settings are indeed a issue. Reset them to zero. If you have LR set to apply a ton of sharpening on inport, reset it to apply just a little, or none at all depending on the ISO.


So I was able to verify that sharpening was deactivated completely (along with everything else). Still getting the black halo ...


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