# Black bar on photo?



## tpatana (Nov 23, 2015)

Today shoot I got couple times black bar on the photo. At random times, and no clue why that might have happened. I had 2 strobes, so can't think they both would time incorrect, so that leaves either the camera or the triggers, and I'm betting 90% that it's the triggers but would be nice to know for sure. Those are the Yongnuo 622s.

I'm not shooting at HSS, these were at 1/200. And the black bar is on image bottom, so sensor top. I'm thinking the curtain started to close already when it flashed, so was the camera curtain too early or the flash-trigger too late?

Anyone else had similar ones?


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## Valvebounce (Nov 23, 2015)

Hi tpatana. 
It does look like shutter to me, l had this with a film EOS. Alternatively were you by any chance in second curtain sync, I've heard people say that some of the 3rd party flashes or triggers don't sync properly in second curtain sync. 
Could it be the rear mirror (the one for the AF sensor) not flipping up properly? 
Whatever is going on unless you can be completely sure it is the flash it looks like a trip to Canon might be in your future! 

Cheers, Graham.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 23, 2015)

I think it's a late triggering issue. With 3rd party triggers, it's best to allow a 'cushion' below max sync speed. I suspect 1/3-stop isn't always enough. Unless you're really trying to knock back the ambient (which you should be able to control in a studio setting), 1/160 or 1/125 should be safe.


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## GammyKnee (Nov 23, 2015)

I've certainly seen that same thing from a sync issue. With my Yongnuos and fresh batteries I can pull off 1/200 most of the time with my 5DIII (my 5DII is a bit less forgiving) , but sod's law dictates that if a mis-sync is going to happen, it'll hit a shot I want to keep. So just as Neuro advised, 1/160 is my go-to speed.


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## Pookie (Nov 23, 2015)

That's your shutter for sure...


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## FEBS (Nov 23, 2015)

GammyKnee said:


> I've certainly seen that same thing from a sync issue. With my Yongnuos and fresh batteries I can pull off 1/200 most of the time with my 5DIII (my 5DII is a bit less forgiving) , but sod's law dictates that if a mis-sync is going to happen, it'll hit a shot I want to keep. So just as Neuro advised, *1/160 is my go-to speed*.


+1
for 5D3, I never go higher then 1/160, because I do see sometimes the curtain, but not as much as show in your photo. Maybe as mentioned already, you need fresh batteries in the triggers. I know the YN622 is even working correctly on the 1Dx (for which I normaly use 1/200 as highest shutterspeed). So if fresh batteries don't help, I think you must let your camera check.


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## kaihp (Nov 23, 2015)

Flash too late for shutter for sure. Had the same on the 3P rf-triggers for my studio lamps (yes, Chinese). I think I ended up going down to 1/100sec to be absolutely sure, but this depends on how quick (or slow) your triggers are.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 23, 2015)

Let's be clear, because if I were the OP reading this thread the statement from Graham (Valvebounce) and the ambiguous possible confirmation from Pookie would make me nervous. There is no reason to suspect a mechanical problem with the camera. As Pookie's states, you're seeing the shutter in the image, but that's a timing issue with your triggers. The 1D X has a 1/250 max sync, I can shoot at that shutter speed with an ST-E3-RT + 600EX-RT setup, but when using PocketWizards that was not completely reliable, 1/160 was what I used for that.


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## tpatana (Nov 23, 2015)

Ok, thanks. Good to know it's nothing serious. Have to use 1/160 next time. Haven't gone through all the pics, but I think there was 3 occurrences in about 1100 pics. 

I wonder if this is related to the fact that I was using 1 TX and 2 RX, instead of the normal 1-1 -configuration. I don't remember seeing this before.


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## Pookie (Nov 23, 2015)

Didn't think that was ambiguous at all... if you see your shutter you'd naturally back down the speed to confirm it's disappearance or shutter malfunction. All I thought the op wanted was confirmation it was indeed the shutter. It does look as if he has a knowledgeable setup.


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## RGF (Nov 24, 2015)

I have seen similar problem when I was above the max synch speed with off brand flashes set to manual mode.

As NA says, if you are below the Synch Speed, probably a timing issue with the flash or triggering mechanism.


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## jus2sho (Nov 29, 2015)

Definitely a shutter issue.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 29, 2015)

Pookie said:


> That's your shutter for sure...





jus2sho said:


> Definitely a shutter issue.


No, it is the third party trigger timing.

It is a phenomena common among cheaper third party radio triggers when used at max sync speed, intermittent images with a bar/shutter shadow. The timing of the flash sequence is absolutely critical for max sync flash and is one area where the cheap triggers cut corners.

If your max sync speed is 1/200 then try 1/125, 2/3's stop slower, and I am sure it will never happen, at 1/160, 1/3 stop slower, it might happen occasionally but nowhere near as often.

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2010/01/know-your-sync.html
http://neilvn.com/tangents/high-speed-flash-sync/


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 29, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> If your max sync speed is 1/200 then try 1/125, 2/3's stop slower, and I am sure it will never happen, at 1/160, 1/3 stop slower, it might happen occasionally but nowhere near as often.



He was 1/3-stop below his 1D X's max sync of 1/250 s.


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## tpatana (Nov 29, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > If your max sync speed is 1/200 then try 1/125, 2/3's stop slower, and I am sure it will never happen, at 1/160, 1/3 stop slower, it might happen occasionally but nowhere near as often.
> ...



And it happened ~3 times in ~1100 pics (@1/200), so can't say it being a problem really, more a curiosity that what is the problem, plus trying to make sure something is not starting to fail. But next time I'll probably use 1/160 anyway.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 29, 2015)

tpatana said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



And if he'd been two thirds under it would of happened even less. I use PCB Einsteins via their wireless triggers and always (in the studio) use 1/160, 2/3 stop below my 1Ds MkIII's max sync, for maximum issue free syncing. Of course in a studio it is easy to control the ambient so the shutter speed is not that important, outside when we want to use max sync it can be an issue and then I will normally move to the 600-EX-RT's.


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## FTb-n (Nov 30, 2015)

I often shoot with 4-6 Yongnuo YN565EXII flashes, each on its own YN622c trigger (2 per umbrella for key and fill, maybe 1-2 more on the backdrop). I'm using a 5D3 and at most venues, I have no problems with these triggers at 1/200. Many times I'll drop it down to 1/160, but I like to start at 1/200 to test the reliability of the triggers.

There is one venue, conference rooms at an ice rink, that will sometimes give me problems and I need to drop it down to 1/125 or play with the channel. This is very odd in that issues I run into seem to be venue related. My guess is that 2.4 mhz Wifi, wireless mic, or other radio signals are affecting the triggers, which operate at the same frequency.

When I do have a sync issue, it rarely affects more than one flash and never leaves me with a totally black bar. I'm curious. Did you have a trigger on each flash or one trigger driving both (or maybe the second on optical slave)?


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## tpatana (Nov 30, 2015)

FTb-n said:


> When I do have a sync issue, it rarely affects more than one flash and never leaves me with a totally black bar. I'm curious. Did you have a trigger on each flash or one trigger driving both (or maybe the second on optical slave)?



That shoot I had 2 triggers, one on each strobe, plus they were both on optical slave so even if one of them missed the signal, both would flash.

I get completely black occasionally, but that one happens usually if I slam down the shutter. If I half-press, wait for focus, and then full-press, it almost never happens.


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## FTb-n (Nov 30, 2015)

tpatana said:


> FTb-n said:
> 
> 
> > When I do have a sync issue, it rarely affects more than one flash and never leaves me with a totally black bar. I'm curious. Did you have a trigger on each flash or one trigger driving both (or maybe the second on optical slave)?
> ...


When you initially depress the shutter, the YN622 sends signals to adjust the flash settings, including zoom (if it exists). Maybe "slamming" the shutter results in a timing issue with the flash responding to these signals before firing. Just a guess.


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## tpatana (Nov 30, 2015)

FTb-n said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > FTb-n said:
> ...



Yea, I've guessed something similar. As long as I remember that, it doesn't happen too often.


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## tpatana (Dec 7, 2015)

Had another shoot today, was using 1/160 and had this occur 3 times in ~900 shots. So it's still there, probably just have to admit that the Yongnuos are almost reliable but not 100%.


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## d (Dec 7, 2015)

Just to add another data point; I used to encounter the same issue with my Yongnuo 602 triggers with a similar regularity - i.e. every few hundred images I might see the shutter in a shot. Just one of those things.

And FWIW, in the studio I've been working in where we use Broncolor Scoro packs triggered by their RFS Transmitter, we have to run the Canon cameras at 1/3 - 2/3 slower than their stated max flash sync speed to avoid regular issues like this as well.


d.


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## FTb-n (Dec 8, 2015)

tpatana said:


> Had another shoot today, was using 1/160 and had this occur 3 times in ~900 shots. So it's still there, probably just have to admit that the Yongnuos are almost reliable but not 100%.


For $40 per transceiver, I'd say that's pretty good. I also suspect that no radio trigger system is 100%.

For what it's worth, I had more issues with a PC sync cord misfiring than I've had with my YN622's.


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