# Likeliness of on-chip A/D converters in the next 5D & 6D bodies?



## pedro (Feb 3, 2016)

I just wondered, if that is the current sensor tech to be applied in Canon's FF body line-up or if this feature will remain a characteristic asset of the flag ship line only? Or is it too early for any guess work? Thanks for your opinions.


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## Don Haines (Feb 3, 2016)

pedro said:


> I just wondered, if that is the current sensor tech to be applied in Canon's FF body line-up or if this feature will remain a characteristic asset of the flag ship line only? Or is it too early for any guess work? Thanks for your opinions.


my bet5 is that it starts showing up everywhere....


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## Larsskv (Feb 3, 2016)

I guess that for manufactoring purposes, it makes more sense if the new sensors will be like the new one in the 1DXII, on chip. It will be better for Canons competitiveness as well.


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## pedro (Feb 3, 2016)

Too bad that there aren't any real low light field test reports available as of today. Are there any estimates on how much improvement in RAW (e.g. ISO 12800-51200) will be achievable by using on chip A/DCs in comparison to the former model?


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## Stu_bert (Feb 5, 2016)

Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 5, 2016)

Stu_bert said:


> Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more?



Non-recurring costs of setting up a new fab are very high. Once that investment is made, recurring costs ought not be significantly higher than off-chip.


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## kphoto99 (Feb 5, 2016)

Stu_bert said:


> Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think



This is Canon, so the on chip adc will not show up on the 80D. Cost does not have anything to do with it.
Do you think that the joystick on the back of the 7D costs much? It didn't show up on 70D when the 7D AF moved to 7D (neither some of the software options of the 7D AF, and that has zero cost since it is already written).


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## rrcphoto (Feb 5, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


> Stu_bert said:
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not really. and canon didn't set up a new fab.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 5, 2016)

Last September, the Canon Photography chief (Now Canon President) said the following. I would expect to see mostly on-chip for models that were not already being prepared for release. The on-chip A/D sensors were most likely the ones they currently use from Sony.

"DE: This is actually a very technical question. I’m not sure if it’s one that you would be free to answer or not, but with sensor technology some have pointed to the analog-to-digital conversion implementations being very critical for image quality and dynamic range. Can you tell us whether Canon currently uses on-chip or off-chip A/D converters?

MM: *Right now, we use both on-chip and off-chip*, but recently I made the decision going forward to concentrate on the on-chip.

DE: Mm-hmm. Yes.

MM: The intent is to increase the performance. In terms of cost, this may be a little negative, but in terms of the direction to take, this will make us more competitive.

DE: So the net cost, the combined cost of the sensor and separate A/D is less than a sensor with A/D on it. Ah, I didn’t realize that!"


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## brad-man (Feb 5, 2016)

Has it been confirmed that the sensor in the 1DX mkll does in fact have an onboard AD converter?


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## Bennymiata (Feb 5, 2016)

The 1dx2 does have on-chip A/D as well as a cooling pipe to keep the sensor cool.


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## brad-man (Feb 5, 2016)

I have read of both of those features as well. However, I don't recall the source(s) as being particularly reliable. Can you point me in the right direction for reliable confirmation?
The best I could find was an interview by Ari Hazeghi with Chuck Westfall:

"AH: In addition to the very modest increase in resolution from 18 to 20 Mega-pixels, what improvements have Canon made to the CMOS image sensor that would translate to a higher image quality when shooting in RAW (CR2) format?

CW: In addition to the first implementation of Dual Pixel CMOS AF in a full frame image sensor, the EOS-1D X Mark II showcases the latest Canon image sensor technologies such as new photodiode construction, new color filters, and _greater photo-electric conversion efficiency_. In plain English, the new image sensor delivers higher image quality at all ISO speeds for both RAW image data and JPEG files."

It's not clear to me how that greater efficiency is achieved.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 5, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


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Relative to recurring costs? Because that was the essence. Once the infrastructure investment is made, be it building a new fab, building new tooling, or whatever, using it is relatively cheap in this case, no?


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## Famateur (Feb 5, 2016)

I haven't seen any official announcement that the 1DXII sensor uses on-chip ADC, but maybe I missed it. It seems to me that because it wasn't touted in the official release, ADC is not on-chip.

Given Canon's acknowledgement that they were going to specifically address the aspects of resolution and sensitivity in separate bodies (e.g. 5DS for resolution and another body for sensitivity), it would be a shock to me if the 5DIII successor did no use on-chip ADC. I suspect that body was the source of the 15-stop dynamic range rumors.

For the 6DII, it could go either way. The 6D came out with a slightly better sensor than the 5DIII. Instead of a limited sensor, lower-market product positioning for the 6D was accomplished through limited feature set (e.g. non-metal construction, basic AF system, etc).

Remember also that the 70D was the vehicle for introducing Dual Pixel AF, now seen in the 7DII and 1DXII. That technology was excluded in subsequent Rebel and EOS M bodies, "trickling" up instead. It's possible sensor advancements will appear in the 80D and later show up in the 5DIII successor and/or 6DII.

I'm still not convinced that Canon will be able to do both high-sensitivity and DPAF in the same sensor. My hunch is that it's a trade-off. It would not surprise me if the 5DIII successor has a high-sensitivity on-chip ADC sensor without Dual Pixel AF.

My own preference? I just want a full-frame equivalent of the 70D with ISO performance on par with or slightly better than the 6D. If they can do that with the added benefits of on-chip ADC, all the better.


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## Famateur (Feb 5, 2016)

Then again, there's the C300 Mark II, touting 15 stops of dynamic range AND Dual Pixel AF. Maybe both will be seen in the 5DIII successor after all! Put in the articulating touch screen, and I would probably opt to save up for it over picking up a 5DIII at a discount upon release.


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## rrcphoto (Feb 5, 2016)

3kramd5 said:


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a) they didn't build a new fab .. they would have announced that, and it would have been in their reports.

b) they had a 180nm sensor line already with copper BEOL.

c) the equipment used by modern full frame sensors is 20+ years old, the cost is negligible.


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## 3kramd5 (Feb 6, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


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So, taking all that at face value, is there a cost driver to not putting ADCs on chip?


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## Stu_bert (Feb 6, 2016)

brad-man said:


> I have read of both of those features as well. However, I don't recall the source(s) as being particularly reliable. Can you point me in the right direction for reliable confirmation?
> The best I could find was an interview by Ari Hazeghi with Chuck Westfall:
> 
> "AH: In addition to the very modest increase in resolution from 18 to 20 Mega-pixels, what improvements have Canon made to the CMOS image sensor that would translate to a higher image quality when shooting in RAW (CR2) format?
> ...



there was at least one other quoted in the 1DX II announced thread, but here's the one from a UK photo magazine (ADC on sensor)

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/reviews/dslrs/canon-eos-1d-x-mark-ii-review


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 6, 2016)

brad-man said:


> I have read of both of those features as well. However, I don't recall the source(s) as being particularly reliable. Can you point me in the right direction for reliable confirmation?
> The best I could find was an interview by Ari Hazeghi with Chuck Westfall:



The interview was with Canon Photography Chief Masaya Maeda last Fall. I'm not sure why you think he is not reliable. He was recently promoted to Canon President. It was widely posted and commented on.

Scroll down to the paragraph just below the new printer photo.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/09/16/canon-maeda-promises-eos-m-enthusiasts-more-aps-c-lenses-new-printers


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## Stu_bert (Feb 6, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Last September, the Canon Photography chief (Now Canon President) said the following. I would expect to see mostly on-chip for models that were not already being prepared for release. The on-chip A/D sensors were most likely the ones they currently use from Sony.
> 
> "DE: This is actually a very technical question. I’m not sure if it’s one that you would be free to answer or not, but with sensor technology some have pointed to the analog-to-digital conversion implementations being very critical for image quality and dynamic range. Can you tell us whether Canon currently uses on-chip or off-chip A/D converters?
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Thanks Mt Spokane, that key bit is of course the "concentrating on". Doesnt mean the true entry level will get it immediate, but based on that I would be more doubtful that the 6D does not get the same....

It will be interesting once the reviews of production cameras are in, but if the *reason* that Canon didnt introduce the ADC was only sensor cost then I think they have misjudged their userbase a little. I suspect Maeda-san is playing it (cost) down a lot (and there's more to it)....


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 6, 2016)

dilbert said:


> Canon faces competition from sensor IQ output across its entire range of products.
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> The only way to respond to that is by moving the ADC onto the sensor and doing other things to improve IQ.
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I agree, he is planning to use the technology on new models. He also likely ordered the rumored testing of Sony sensors telling his staff to use them if they could not put the technology into Canon sensors. That usually causes the stogy types to move (a little).

I have little doubt that there is a engineering issue, its the foot dragging in management. Canon emphasizes cost control as a way of life. Everything about a product is optimized for cost effectiveness. Not one penny goes into the cost of a product without a management review. This results in Canon's ability to make a profit when others are losing money. However, they must eventually bite the bullet and put tech into cameras even if it costs $0.25 more.


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## pedro (Feb 6, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> dilbert said:
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;D


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## K-amps (Feb 6, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ....... However, they must eventually bite the bullet and put tech into cameras even if it costs $0.25 more.



Someone please tell Canon, I am willing to leverage that cost by a factor of 1000.

I will gladly pay an extra $250 if the next 5d/6d etc gets us Landscape guys, lower noise at base iso.


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## brad-man (Feb 6, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> brad-man said:
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I read that interview and while I don't distrust what he says, I am very skeptical of the timeframe. I understand he has committed to "a likable M" with more lenses and onboard ADC for new sensors, but when is that going to happen? Is the new 1DX the first? That interview was posted in the middle of September. In my world, "the very near future" has already past


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## ritholtz (Feb 6, 2016)

Canon UK says:
"Next generation of professional image quality in the EOS line-up. With enhanced light collecting performance and the ability to convert this light into digital signal, this sensor delivers a high-sensitivity performance reducing noise in both high and low ISO speeds, along with high latitude to pull details in dark areas."

They never mentioned about pulling details from shadow before.


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## Ozarker (Feb 7, 2016)

kphoto99 said:


> Stu_bert said:
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> > Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think
> ...



Don't need a joystick on the 70D. It has a touchscreen that works very well and is far easier and quicker to use than the joystick.


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## rs (Feb 7, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


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Yes, arguably a touchscreen is better for some users in some scenarios. However, good luck selecting AF points when shooting with the OVF.


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## zim (Feb 7, 2016)

rs said:


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Was just about to post the same, I really like the idea of having a touch screen when using 'Q' but with my eye to the viewfinder I can't imagine anything better than the ergo of the 7D# 5D# maybe I have a poor imagination ;D


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## kphoto99 (Feb 7, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


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I guess you have the ability to use your nose to select AF points on the touchscreen.


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## hmatthes (Feb 7, 2016)

"Don't need a joystick on the 70D. It has a touchscreen that works very well and is far easier and quicker to use than the joystick."

I would dearly love the joystick on my 70D because I am constantly rotating it to use portrait orientation with the battery grip... a joystick right where my thumb lives, regardless of orientation, is my dream.

Please Mr. Canon-san, put a joystick on the 5Div and Ill move back to FF!


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## Ozarker (Feb 8, 2016)

rs said:


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Obviously you have no idea how the touchscreen works. 

The camera senses when the face gets close and turns the touch screen off instantly. Turns it back on instantly when you pull the face away. Touch capability is reactivated by pushing the "Q" button. Settings NEVER get changed by the nose or face.

As far as selecting AF points... it works just like any other camera. The OVF is used for AF point selection if you want or the screen can be used to select the AF point.

You boys really ought to study a little before commenting about what you erroneously "think or believe or have been told" a camera does vs what it actually does.

Those are just plain ignorant comments. Not stupid, just ignorant.

Just where do you men get these wild eyed ideas about touch screens? Obviously not from personal experience. You just dream them up, I guess.

The good news is that ignorance can be fixed. Stupid is forever.


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## Proscribo (Feb 8, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> ...
> The camera senses when the face gets close and turns the touch screen off instantly. Turns it back on instantly when you pull the face away. Settings NEVER get changed by the nose or face.
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AFAIK 70D doesn't even have a sensor to detect whether you're looking through VF or not. However it still doesn't change settings when poking around, which is exactly the problem! You see, the point was that you can't use the screen to change AF point while looking through the VF, and that with joystick it's a lot easier than with wheels or D-pad.


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## Ozarker (Feb 8, 2016)

Proscribo said:


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Yes, the 70D has the sensor. I own one, do you? To reactivate the screen you press the "Q" button. (Wow, the screen becomes active again just like the 5D III!)

On your other point: HUH? Why or how would anyone want to change the AF point via the screen while looking through the viewfinder? You aren't making sense. That is impossible.

When looking through the viewfinder one can see the points and can change them that way... using wheels or D-pad. 

I have no idea why one would think a joystick would be easier. I cycle through the points much quicker with the wheels than with the joystick. I do it the same way on my 5D III even though it has a joystick. The joystick is a slow choice for cycling through AF points. The wheels are much faster. Maybe change is really difficult for some and making stuff up is their coping mechanism.

Not having the joystick doesn't cripple the 70D at all. Everyone likes what they like. Gotta have a slow joystick? Don't get a 70D.

However, making stuff up out of thin air is just...  goofy. (Nose changes settings, have to use the screen to change AF points, wheels are difficult, joystick is faster, camera doesn't sense when the face is close and eye is looking through the viewfinder etc...)

You boys must be trolling, right?


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## kphoto99 (Feb 8, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


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Obviously you can't detect sarcasm. Not being able to detect sarcasm is an early indication of Alzheimer's, better get that check.

And as far as being familiar with touch screen on Canon, I have used the M, the T4i and the 70D. 

As somebody already pointed out, the discussion is about the joystick and that the touch screen does not replace the joystick when using the OVF. Stop being such a fanboy.


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## Ozarker (Feb 9, 2016)

kphoto99 said:


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NO!


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## Stu_bert (Feb 9, 2016)

brad-man said:


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Not sure if this is the case, but the various YouTube videos which mentioned on sensor ADC have been withdrawn. Chuck Westfall, Canon USA has, according to Dpreview, gone back to product engineering in Japan as he was not briefed about the ADC (got all this from FM forums)...


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## rrcphoto (Feb 9, 2016)

as an fyi.. there's some pictures out there of the various sensors, and it's certainly not the same old same old..

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=28984.msg576917#msg576917


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## nvsravank (Feb 10, 2016)

Ok I think you finally got the point but I have to disagree with you on the use of the joystick vs wheel. 
When you nine points or so cycling through the points was a no brainer. But with the 60+ focus points, it takes forever. And moving vertically or side to side is not as simple. With the joy stick it becomes much easier while shooting OVF style. You can control it more intuitively. And since it has directional ability you can even go diagonal. Getting it right using a wheel is nearly impossible I would think. If it is a clickty wheel like the back dial you can do it, but even then it wouldn't be as easy as the joystick. 




CanonFanBoy said:


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