# New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 12, 2011)

```
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<p><strong>Which one?

</strong>I am 99% positive we’re going to see a new DSLR next Tuesday, all the clues are pointing that way and I’m willing to give it a [CR3] rating.</p>
<p><strong>What camera? No [CR] rating on this yet.

</strong>Everything is pointing to a new 1D series camera, I am getting zero information from sources or from anywhere else on the web about any other camera.Ã‚Â Ã‚Â We <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/03/5d3-1d5-and-1ds4-timeline-cr1/">started hearing 6 months ago</a> that the next EOS camera would be a new 1D and the bits of information are all pointing that way again.</p>
<p>For now the best spec list I have is what I posted a few days ago.</p>
<ul>
<li>16-18mp</li>
<li>Full Frame</li>
<li>ISO 51,200</li>
<li>Dual Digic V</li>
<li>Crazy frame rates of 12-14fps have been reported</li>
<li>61 AF points has also been reported</li>
</ul>
<p>Stock levels of the 1D Mark IV also point me in this direction. It seems they are very much being built to fill orders. There doesn’t seem to be any excess stock too many places.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## steven63 (Oct 12, 2011)

DigitalRev?


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## awinphoto (Oct 12, 2011)

Using a page from the Canon Playbook, I cannot see them lowering the MP from the flagship camera whether your looking at the 1ds (21mp)... then again, I could see them doing kind of what the nikon 700 does where they offer there 30mp+ regular slow mo settings or a cropped 1.3 or 1.6 version that would be eq of 16-18mp with a crazy 12-14 FPS. I also would hope the ISO could also be a tad higher, but a lot can happen for the next few weeks/months... I also hope they release the 5d with this release... if they do, that could be enough for nikon to crap their pants...


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 12, 2011)

steven63 said:


> DigitalRev?



LOL, no... never again.


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## 100 (Oct 12, 2011)

If the specs are like the ones mentioned, it sounds like a Nikon D3s competitor. 

A low megapixel FF Canon versus a high megapixel FF Nikon, if the D800 rumors are accurate. 
Didnâ€™t expect that.


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## lol (Oct 12, 2011)

Less than a week to find out... even assuming it's a 1 series that I've no intention of getting, it might give hints of what might be to come in the 5D3


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## Tarrum (Oct 12, 2011)

Hm, definitely interesting.

But if it's a 1D, it's the same amount of pixels, and maximum is ISO 51200? Or is that the highest, and then expansions like 102400?

If it's the 1Ds, it has less megapixels - makes no sense, Canon has and had the technology to put much more pixels and keep the performance great. 

I'm guessing a 1D, though am a bit disappointed, was hoping for the 1Ds.


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## Bob Howland (Oct 12, 2011)

Anybody besides me remember this?

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,528.0.html


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 12, 2011)

The signs have been pointing towards a NEW DSLR soon, Moving the 1D series to FF was just a matter of time. 

The low pixel density of a 18mp FF camera would certainly give it better low ISO capability, and might tempt me to replace my 5D MK II just to get the ISO boost, since I do a lot of low light photography. I really don't care about more FPS.

Those who shoot wildlife and birds will find such a camera to be less useful than a 1D MK IV or a 7D, with a lot fewer pixels on the target.


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## Gothmoth (Oct 12, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The low pixel density of a 18mp FF camera would certainly give it better low ISO capability, and might tempt me to replace my 5D MK II just to get the ISO boost, since I do a lot of low light photography. I really don't care about more FPS.



i canÂ´t complain about low ISO performance... 

when i read 16-18 MP i first thought this is maybe the FF model that will be placed below the 5D.
but then all points to a 1D model.


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## EYEONE (Oct 12, 2011)

If it has ISO 51200 without expansion I would expect it to have at least a H1 and H2 which would have put it at 204800. Interseting at least.

I would love to see someone crush the A77's 12fps. Just because.

Exciting!


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## qless (Oct 12, 2011)

EYEONE said:


> If it has ISO 51200 without expansion I would expect it to have at least a H1 and H2 which would have put it at 204800. Interseting at least.
> 
> I would love to see someone crush the A77's 12fps. Just because.
> 
> Exciting!


More than 9 fps on FF seems impossible with a moving mirror. A77 got a fixed one...


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## EYEONE (Oct 12, 2011)

qless said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > If it has ISO 51200 without expansion I would expect it to have at least a H1 and H2 which would have put it at 204800. Interseting at least.
> ...



The FF Nikon D3s can do 11fps.


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## Gothmoth (Oct 12, 2011)

qless said:


> More than 9 fps on FF seems impossible with a moving mirror. A77 got a fixed one...



nope... if nikon can do it canon sure can.
ok nikon 3Ds does it only in DX mode but that is more a processing problem then a mirror problem.


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## hambergler (Oct 12, 2011)

Seems like a D3S killer / D4 competitor. I really like these specs.

Pair this with a high megapixel 5D mark III and I'm in heaven. I hope it has nifty video features.


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## dgsphto (Oct 12, 2011)

This makes sense. This would be a sports, pro body camera in time for the games. 

I really wanted a high MP 5Dmk3 though! I suppose I will have to "live with"  a 5Dmk2.


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## seanmcr6 (Oct 12, 2011)

2 things.

1. As it's been mentioned countless times before....Nikon has a patent on the whole hardware cropping mode. You will NOT see this functionality in a Canon camera anytime soon.

2. It would not make much sense to create from scratch a new full frame sensor that is lower than the current chip. The 5DmkII is one of the best full frame chips made. The technology is over 3 years old now. I cannot see them engineering a brand new chip and lowering the MP count. If they put the 3 yr old chip in a 1D body, with new AF and computational power to shoot at 10fps...it would be a winner. Why spend dev time/money...retool the manufacturing...for a 16mp full frame chip? Can't see this happening. I don't need or want native 102K ISO....give me better DR.

I find the 21MPs of the 5D a sweet spot. It's high enough resolution be be used pretty much anywhere...and low enough that you aren't going to suffer file management issues or go beyond the limits of current 35mm lenses. My biggest complaint in using the 5DmkII is that the body/AF/features are nowhere as good as my 1D. I miss my 1D....

I too have been waiting since 2010 for a new 1Ds or 1D. I am happy it's finally here!!!


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## Gothmoth (Oct 12, 2011)

seanmcr6 said:


> 2 things.
> 
> 1. As it's been mentioned countless times before....Nikon has a patent on the whole hardware cropping mode. You will NOT see this functionality in a Canon camera anytime soon.



im not sure about that. 
there are plenty of canon patents and you see similiar features in non canon cameras.

but then im not a patent lawyer. 
and i donÂ´t know if canon could fill a patent that does the same but in a different way.



> 2. It would not make much sense to create from scratch a new full frame sensor that is lower than the current chip. The 5DmkII is one of the best full frame chips made. The technology is over 3 years old now.



would make sense to me if this is not a 1D model but a customer/prosumer oriented FF body.
to seperate the products a 16-18 MP FF sensor would fit.
but then i would not expect a speed of 12-14 FPS... 



> If they put the 3 yr old chip in a 1D body, with new AF and computational power to shoot at 10fps...it would be a winner. Why spend dev time/money...retool the manufacturing...for a 16mp full frame chip?



maybe they fixed the rolling shutter problem with the new design or some other shortcomings of the old sensor design. dynamic range would also not increase with your approach.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 12, 2011)

Gothmoth said:


> qless said:
> 
> 
> > More than 9 fps on FF seems impossible with a moving mirror. A77 got a fixed one...
> ...



Canon could do it? Canon has done it...with several generations of film cameras. Last time I checked, the reflex mirror didn't care whether there was a CMOS sensor or emulsion-coated gelatin behind it.


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## EYEONE (Oct 12, 2011)

seanmcr6 said:


> 1. As it's been mentioned countless times before....Nikon has a patent on the whole hardware cropping mode. You will NOT see this functionality in a Canon camera anytime soon.



I'm pretty sure that just means that Canon can't do it the same way as Nikon. If they came up with a different method of cropping the viewfinder they could do it all they wanted. That's how I understand it. Both companies have 70-200mm f2.8 IS lenses and 50mm f1.8s and 24-70mm f2.8s. But they are different designs.


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## Gothmoth (Oct 12, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon could do it? Canon has done it...with several generations of film cameras. Last time I checked, the reflex mirror didn't care whether there was a CMOS sensor or emulsion-coated gelatin behind it.



yeah damn right... i just forgot the analog days. 
which ones?

the EOS-1N RS has done 10 FPS but doesnÂ´t count.
as it had a fixed mirror.


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## sandro (Oct 12, 2011)

I wonder if it has some kind of video feature


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 12, 2011)

Gothmoth said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Canon could do it? Canon has done it...with several generations of film cameras. Last time I checked, the reflex mirror didn't care whether there was a CMOS sensor or emulsion-coated gelatin behind it.
> ...



Not sure about others, but I know the EOS 1v (the only film SLR still in the lineup) shoots at 10 fps with the grip.

True about the 1N RS. In fact, the F1 (pre-EOS, FD-mount, but also with a pellicle mirror) reached 14 fps!


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## bvukich (Oct 12, 2011)

I always wondered why they didn't have a drive mode where the mirror stays up for double or triple frames. Assuming sensor readout the shutter and write to buffer/flash could keep up, you could get 20 or 30 fps, and still get 10 FPS flashing in the viewfinder; which should be enough to track a subject under most circumstances.


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## ddg1263 (Oct 12, 2011)

I bet you this will be the 3D that was rumored so many months ago. We have a big show coming up in Hollywood on nov 3rd, and I can only imagine that it will have some unique video features with this model. Basically, I am saying it will be a low light video Ff DSLR that is one step up from the 5D. I believe the 1D and the 5D will be updated next year well after nikons releases.


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## ranplett (Oct 12, 2011)

Foveon-like 18MP 1Ds? The 1Ds is old...


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## ontarian (Oct 12, 2011)

I will buy this camera if it is in the 5k ballpark and sell one of my 2 1D4s. -self described 1D addict.


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## gene_can_sing (Oct 12, 2011)

An 18 megapixel 1D? That makes no sense as this is suppose to be the Flagship camera. An 18 megapixel Full frames sounds more like an entry level camera. It's fine for me as long as it has awesome video features. The lower the megapixel the better for video.

Also, regarding the Crop mode. Panasonic GH2 has a very good crop mode 3x, and Nikon hasn't sued them over it, so I'm sure Canon can do the same thing. The T3i has a 3x crop mode also, so I'm hoping that makes it into the high end camera (which makes sense).


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## traveller (Oct 12, 2011)

Where are the CR2 & CR3 sources? There have been some dates announced and lots of CR1 rumors, but it seems to be a bit like convicting someone on circumstancial evidence. Normally, we'd have something more substantial by now; I'm not saying that there will be no announcement on Tuesday, just that it isn't following the pattern that we've seen before (hopefully some leaked pictures/publicity materials will appear soon). 

If the spec list that CR has posted is true, then it seems to be a 1D Mk5, not a 1Ds Mk4. I can see Canon wanting to capitalise on the coming Olympics, but the 1Ds Mk3 is very long in the tooth. I hear the speculation that Canon might do away with the 1Ds line since the 5D Mk2 stole a lot of its sales, but I can't see that Canon would want to lose the premium price point by making a future 5D Mk3 the top high resolution body. 

If this is a 1 series announcement, it will be interesting to see the reaction if Nikon releases its prosumer targeted D800 at around the same time, as NR predicts. I guess we'll know in a couple of weeks...


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## nikkito (Oct 13, 2011)

From a big Swiss retailer about availability of the 1D Mk IV:

Delivery date unknown

*Neither we nor our suppliers have the item on stock. There is no information about the delivery date. It may be that the item arrives soon, or is not available over a longer period.* If this article belongs to an order with more products this article can delay the delivery. Therefore, you can always contact us for a partial delivery of reserved items to be carried out.


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## alipaulphotography (Oct 13, 2011)

All sounds pretty sudden. There was A LOT of 'no DSLR in 2011' only a couple of weeks ago. You've changed your tune. I probably will wait for a few more 'next generation' models to be released but at least there is progress.
5D mk III is still probably going to be the wedding photographers camera of choice.


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## Pajo Takamatsu (Oct 13, 2011)

seanmcr6 said:


> 2 things.
> 
> 1. As it's been mentioned countless times before....Nikon has a patent on the whole hardware cropping mode. You will NOT see this functionality in a Canon camera anytime soon.
> 
> 2. It would not make much sense to create from scratch a new full frame sensor that is lower than the current chip. The 5DmkII is one of the best full frame chips made. The technology is over 3 years old now. I cannot see them engineering a brand new chip and lowering the MP count. If they put the 3 yr old chip in a 1D body, with new AF and computational power to shoot at 10fps...it would be a winner. Why spend dev time/money...retool the manufacturing...for a 16mp full frame chip? Can't see this happening. I don't need or want native 102K ISO....give me better DR.



Just out of curiosity what does Nikon's patent on the cropping mode mean?

I've been waiting for MK3 for sometime now and it sounds like I shouldn't
wait and get into the MK2 wagon soon.

Do I read this right?


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## dr croubie (Oct 13, 2011)

Quick wikipedia-ing: the EOS 1V did 10fps on a moving mirror, the EOS1nRS did 12fps on a pellicle mirror. And the current 1Dmk4 does 10fps on a moving mirror. (and the best I can find out about the F1 is 9fps, although there probably was a motor drive for 14fps that i didn't find).
Surely it's gotta be possible to go above thiese numbers, we've had 11 years of tech since the 1V, there's got to be a more efficient motor and materials capable of the G-forces involved by now. If the mirror can do it, the rest is just software.

I definitely like the idea of the "2 frames per mirror drop" (or 3).
- Firstly, it'll have to be via a custom function, only for those who want it, because it will almost definitely reduce hit-rate (at least in the first incarnation, coding and algorithms will get better over time).
- Second, they drop the mirror in between each shot for AF-tracking. See my post elsewhere quoting canon talking about their new "dream AF in the near future". If this AF really is that good, maybe it can predictively track moving targets with only dropping the mirror after every 2nd or 3rd shot? Or it can process the images it takes quickly and has improved contrast-based AF to help it keep up without dropping the mirror?
Speculation now, of course, and it may not be in this release, but it will be in *something* within a few years, i'd bet. It'll take processing power and good coding, but it's not impossible.

As for the 18MP FF sensor, I just don't believe it one bit. There is absolutely *0%* chance they are going to drop the flagship MP-count *DOWN*, even if it does 1 million ISO as well as my 7D does iso400, it ain't gonna happen.
*If* it's 18MP, whether it's FF or APS-H, it's got a 1D-label (or 3D, or 6D, just *NOT* 1Ds or 5D).
18MP could be the "APS-H crop" mode (i'm too lazy to calculate how big an FF sensor would be for that). If they release an 18mp camera now, then they pretty much *have* to follow nikon's route with the D3/D3x and release a 30+mp 1Ds sooner rather than later, or too many actual pros will jump ship (and i'll be on ebay to get all their 1Ds3s when they do).

Alternatively, it might be an 18MP FF sensor, *iff* (which reads 'if and only if' to you non-maths nerds), it's a Foveon-type. (but will they brand it as a 54MP sensor a-la Sigma?).

And just because nikon may or may not have a patent on hardware-cropping, doesn't mean canon can't work around it. P&S cameras have had "digital zoom" for years. the 60/600D has digitalzoom/hardwarecropping for video, so some are already getting around it in some way or another.
Does nikon have the patent just for APS-C cropping? canon can get around that by using APS-H cropping, or even their own APS-C cropping (seeing as canon's APS-C is a different size than nikon's APS-C). Depends on how the patent (if it exists) is written as to how easily they can get around it.

More things to speculate on that noone's mentioned yet.
- Modularity? We can already change focussing screens, how about the whole prism (ie, to a sports-finder?). Will than affect Weather-Sealing too much?
- Flip-Screen? Is pretty much out on a pro-body, for ruggedness and sealing. How about a separete plug-in screen? Even a battery-powered screen via the HDMI plug? Pretty much the same as tethered to a laptop, just a smaller screen and more portable.
- Square sensor? You're going to lose a lot of the image circle with a 36mm square sensor. And using one to crop 36x25 and 25x36 images wastes a lot of real-estate around the edges. Very unlikely.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2011)

Pajo Takamatsu said:


> Do I read this right?



I wouldn't read anything at all into this, frankly. Less than a month ago, it was pretty much a sure thing that we'd not see a new Canon dSLR in 2011. Now, it's '99%' that we'll see one in a week? Not the sort of detail on which to base a purchasing decision, IMO.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> and the best I can find out about the F1 is 9fps, although there probably was a motor drive for 14fps that i didn't find



Yep. Here are the details. Took a hefty motor to get there...


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## dr croubie (Oct 13, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Pajo Takamatsu said:
> 
> 
> > Do I read this right?
> ...



Except: This is the first CR3 we've seen in a while with respect to bodies.
"[CR3] Treat this rumour as fact" says the image. CR-Guy is betting a lot of credibility here using the CR3 tag (although at least only saying "it's a camera but we don't know what" makes sense).
If you need it desperately within the next week, buy it now, but if you can hold off a week, i reckon it's worth a few days' wait. Even if "whatever" body is announced on monday, it probably won't be on the self much before xmas, could be a good time to pick up a cheaper 1Ds3/1D4/5D2/7D/whatever it replaces.


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## Pajo Takamatsu (Oct 13, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Pajo Takamatsu said:
> ...



Actually I can even wait 2-3 months but if the MK3 would be coming next September I'd buy it now.

I just want to get started usind a semi-pro dslr and practice my
lighting. I'm an old film shooter and can't anymore.

Kinda hungry to do some work!


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> Except: This is the first CR3 we've seen in a while with respect to bodies.



True. But then again, check out this previous CR3 on a new body - 'new body being tested in the field...final testing before announcement...we'll see the 1Ds Mark IV before the end of February.' That was February of 2010.


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## Pajo Takamatsu (Oct 13, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Pajo Takamatsu said:
> 
> 
> > Do I read this right?
> ...



So the MK2 is still the best option. I'll be waiting until the end of November to see.

I was checking out the upcoming D800 specs and seemed pretty tempting. 
Then again, I've used Canon for years and don't really wanna switch.


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## rocketdesigner (Oct 13, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Pajo Takamatsu said:
> 
> 
> > Do I read this right?
> ...



After reading this blog for quite awhile, I applaud CR for coming out with this bold prediction ... nearly a week before the scheduled event.

Whether correct or dead wrong about next Tuesday, I am glad to see someone (especially at a rumors forum) actually make an educated guess based upon evidence at hand and take the risk -- after months and months of "photo info foreplay".

Either way, next Tuesday will be an exciting day. Way to go, CR


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## gmrza (Oct 13, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> As for the 18MP FF sensor, I just don't believe it one bit. There is absolutely *0%* chance they are going to drop the flagship MP-count *DOWN*, even if it does 1 million ISO as well as my 7D does iso400, it ain't gonna happen.
> *If* it's 18MP, whether it's FF or APS-H, it's got a 1D-label (or 3D, or 6D, just *NOT* 1Ds or 5D).
> 18MP could be the "APS-H crop" mode (i'm too lazy to calculate how big an FF sensor would be for that). If they release an 18mp camera now, then they pretty much *have* to follow nikon's route with the D3/D3x and release a 30+mp 1Ds sooner rather than later, or too many actual pros will jump ship (and i'll be on ebay to get all their 1Ds3s when they do).



I tend to agree. I almost doubt that Canon would decrease the pixel density on the sensor. Given that that the 1DIV is 16MP, by purely extending the same density to full frame, you get about about 27MP. That way users who absolutely need the 1.3x crop factor could be provided with a crop mode that still delivers the same resolution as the 1DIV.

Of course, this is all total speculation.

If the 1DV does go full frame, and assuming the 5DIII has a similar resolution to the 1DsIV, I can see a 1DV/5DIII combination as being a very nice setup for a lot of people. Again, total speculation!

I can see a lot of people sitting on the fence though until Canon has revealed its full hand - 1DV, 1DsIV, 5DIII - before committing to new bodies.


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## Orion (Oct 13, 2011)

GUys concerning the Singapore "Today" paper pictured, why does it look so fake! Or did I miss something? You can plainly see a different shade of black, etc covering the lower half of the camera body. . . and I just wonder where that add came from and why it's like that. . . .


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## niccyboy (Oct 13, 2011)

rocketdesigner said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Pajo Takamatsu said:
> ...



With all due respect to CR he HAD to come up with a something in case it is launched... I think the website would lose cred if he didnt announce something with a week before the event, I think it is better for him to predict it and it not materialise rather then make it seem like he didn't know it was coming.

I hope the info is credible and we see something coming through.

There is a 95% chance I'll buy it whatever it is if it's full frame. I'm a slave to consumerism.


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## fred_jb (Oct 13, 2011)

I think this is interesting, not because I can afford to buy one (sadly I expect it will be too expensive), but because if true it may give an indication of what else is to come.

Say they split the compact body 5D line - the lower res/video optimised version might use this same 1D sensor and get a 6D designation. I can't see them producing a new sensor unique to just the low volume 1D series, so this dual use could get the volume up to economic levels.

A much higher res version with 30+MP might be the fabled 3D and could effectively replace the current 1Ds line, as I don't think Canon will again duplicate as they did with 5D II and 1Ds III. As this would be the upgrade path for most 5D II users, and compete directly with the Nikon D800, I think this sensor would achieve adequate volumes even if only fitted to this model.

This then leaves the way clear to bring out an MF competitor to top the range, perhaps using some novel and expensive new sensor technology.

Fred


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## Dave (Oct 13, 2011)

I wouldn't wonder if it es the 5D - or probably 5D plus 1DS

I was on Mediamarkt (the biggest electronic market in Germany) last week to ask for a 5D/7D (I'm still not sure which one to buy). And they recommended me to wait "a while".

I can't imagine that a small salesman know anything we don't... but well... I'm excited... Can't wait till next week.

But actually I still don't believe the low MP... (but would be happy about it ;-)

regards, Dave


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## rocketdesigner (Oct 13, 2011)

[/quote]

After reading this blog for quite awhile, I applaud CR for coming out with this bold prediction ... nearly a week before the scheduled event.


[/quote]

With all due respect to CR he HAD to come up with a something in case it is launched... I think the website would lose cred if he didnt announce something with a week before the event, I think it is better for him to predict it and it not materialise rather then make it seem like he didn't know it was coming.

I hope the info is credible and we see something coming through.

There is a 95% chance I'll buy it whatever it is if it's full frame. I'm a slave to consumerism.
[/quote]

You are right and I agree ... but at the same time, my point was at least he came out with a CR3 and did not sit on the side lines until he had more confirmation info - just to protect his backside (ala "CYA") - which far too many other people do these days.

As for me, I am a slave to new fancy toys ...


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## paffe (Oct 13, 2011)

Canon Rumors said:


> steven63 said:
> 
> 
> > DigitalRev?
> ...



Why? As I remember they did go to a Canon event and they even made a video about it. The only problem was they did not tweet about the event at the time. Nothing wrong with DigitalRev.


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## Woody (Oct 13, 2011)

It's funny that we are just a few days away from announcement and there is still no confirmed leaks about the upcoming DSLR release. Contrast this with Nikonrumors which already has a 99% confidence leak about the upcoming D800. Canon really guard their secrets well. I suspect there was a severe leak on their CMOS technology many years back.


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## mjbehnke (Oct 13, 2011)

OK, Don't laugh....... But I saw a post awhile ago that Canon had Patented a form of the Foven Sensor? If this has a new sensor, could it be the Foven type??? So the mention of 18 MP would be .. 54mp as the sensor is three layers. Now, if you pump dual DIGI V's behinf that, do you get a high FPS?? 

Once again, just my 2 cents worth!


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## spaceheat (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm sorry, but this thread is way off the mark.

All signs are pointing to a new Powershot ELPH.


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## EYEONE (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm not sure why FF 18mp is so hard to believe for the 1D. If we were talking about the 1Ds I might agree. But the 1D has always been Canon's speed machine and the 1Ds the resolution monster.

It's comparing apples and oranges.


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## HTCahHTC (Oct 13, 2011)

If it's a D3s competitor, am I the only one who's thinking it's too late? Nikon MAY announce a D4 next year. And they probably may have some killer features...?


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## Justin (Oct 13, 2011)

None of this makes a lick of sense. 1D4 is what? Less than 2 years old? 1Ds3 is ancient. 5D2 is loong in the tooth at over 3 years. This must be a joke--18mpx ff sensor? Nikon and Canon completely switch positions? I don't see it. I'm calling bluff and we'll see a high mpx merged 1 series camera. To achieve 14 fps, yeah maybe the camera will crop the sensor to 18 mpx. 

I'm going to be stunned if this rumored camera emerges.


----------



## april (Oct 13, 2011)

spaceheat said:


> I'm sorry, but this thread is way off the mark.
> 
> All signs are pointing to a new Powershot ELPH.



agree..... it could be a powershot to compete with nikon j1/v1


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## DarkKnightNine (Oct 13, 2011)

qless said:


> EYEONE said:
> 
> 
> > If it has ISO 51200 without expansion I would expect it to have at least a H1 and H2 which would have put it at 204800. Interseting at least.
> ...



Why impossible? My Canon 1D Mark IV already shoots 10fps (with a moving mirror).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2011)

DarkKnightNine said:


> qless said:
> 
> 
> > More than 9 fps on FF seems impossible with a moving mirror. A77 got a fixed one...
> ...



Does your 1D IV have the same size mirror as a FF body? In case you aren't sure, the answer is no. Do you suppose a smaller mirror can be more easily made to move faster? Simple physics tells us the answer to that is yes.

Still, as discussed above, a FF mirror can certainly hit 10 fps - Canon has done it with film cameras, and a current Nikon FF dSLR achieves 11 fps in terms of mirror movement.


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## Zuuyi (Oct 13, 2011)

I really don't care which XD model comes out. I just want them to start coming out. 1Ds means the 5D is soon. 1D means the 7D update is soon. 3D, 5D, 6D or 7D shakes up the market for the small agency pros.

I think a 7D2 is coming out soon; it has to come out before the T4i; same thing for a 60D2 or 70D. You can't have the 650D, a consumer level camera, come out with Digic 5 before the 7D & 60D2/70D has it.

I'm putting my own (CR3) on a 7D2 and my own (CR2) on a 60D2/70D before the release on the 2012 T4i.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2011)

Zuuyi said:


> I think a 7D2 is coming out soon; it has to come out before the T4i; same thing for a 60D2 or 70D. You can't have the 650D, a consumer level camera, come out with Digic 5 before the 7D & 60D2/70D has it.
> 
> I'm putting my own (CR3) on a 7D2 and my own (CR2) on a 60D2/70D before the release on the 2012 T4i.



But the PowerShot S100 already has Digic 5...

I don't see a 7D2 until 2013. But I'd put money on a new Rebel T4i/650D in 1Q2012. It could even have a new sensor -not many who'd be interested in a 7D would be troubled by a 21 MP APS-C sensor in a new Rebel. The 70D is a different matter. I see the APS-C launch order as T4i then 7D2 then 70D.


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## DarkKnightNine (Oct 13, 2011)

I really like the Nikon D3X but as a professional photographer with thousands of dollars invested in top quality L glass, it's just not possible to even consider switching. Not to mention I like and understand Canon lenses better than I do Nikon's. So whatever this new camera is, I hope it will at least be on par with or better than the Nikon D3X. I want a FF camera with great low light performance, high resolution and fast fps all in one sweet package. That's my dream camera. If this camera does all that, I'll buy two or maybe even three.


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## Babarous (Oct 13, 2011)

Gothmoth said:


> qless said:
> 
> 
> > More than 9 fps on FF seems impossible with a moving mirror. A77 got a fixed one...
> ...



D3s can't AF-C in 10 fps mode. A77 can


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## moreorless (Oct 13, 2011)

HTCahHTC said:


> If it's a D3s competitor, am I the only one who's thinking it's too late? Nikon MAY announce a D4 next year. And they probably may have some killer features...?



That surely depends on the performance? If it has 18 megapixels and superior ISO to the D3s then it may well be competitive with the D4/D4s.

Personally though I'd take rumours about exact specs less seriously than overall rumours about a DSLR. The former is always IMHO going to be much easier to keep under wraps the the latter, fewer people need to be in the know and it'll have less effect on the setup of the event.


----------



## rbr (Oct 13, 2011)

Whatever this camera is called, it definitely won't replace the current 1D4 for a lot of people. It would be a huge step down for most wildlife and some sports photographers who use telephoto lenses. Suddenly you're going to have to be 30% closer to your subjects or have to crop and get less pixels on your subject than with the current 1D4. Although I have absolutely no interest or need for a fast full frame camera, it sounds from this thread that some people want such a contraption. I hope Canon makes them happy.


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## Woody (Oct 13, 2011)

Babarous said:


> D3s can't AF-C in 10 fps mode. A77 can



A77 only AF without restriction in 8 fps, like the 7D. In 12 fps, A77 either AF (i) continuously when aperture is fixed at f/3.5 or (ii) in first single shot only.


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## Edwin Herdman (Oct 13, 2011)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The low pixel density of a 18mp FF camera would certainly give it better low ISO capability


If they're resorting to cutting the resolution for the sake of ISO we ought to be sad - for full frame, 18mp doesn't go very far. Newer technology alone should have gotten them most of the way there.

To CR guy: What, exactly, is amazing about a camera that has perhaps nearly 1/8 more resolution and 1/5 to 2/5 more shooting speed over the 1D Mark IV, yet is developed with two extra years? If these astounding (I'm sure) data throughput rates require DUAL Digic V CPUs, either they had better be cramming all sorts of extra data in those 16-18 megapixels or they had better be getting some astounding battery runtime or real-time plenoptic calculations because otherwise it would imply they haven't really gained much ground over the DIGIC IV if this weren't the case for a camera with specs essentially unchanged from 2009.

A camera with these specs would put less demand on lens resolution than my old T1i - this is not what Canon has been updating its supertelephoto line for, that seems certain.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2011)

Looks like Canon is trying to make a "speed demon" and an "owl" out of this camera. The highest MP in the FF for Canon is 21.1MP. Between 18MP (proposed) and 21.1MP, there is only a lost of reolution of 8% (linear). It is no big deal. If it give us a better noise performance at high ISO, better dynamic Range and an "insane" speed of 12-14 FPS. It may be worth to give up the 8% resolution.


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## wockawocka (Oct 13, 2011)

If it's 18mp then I doubt it is a replacement Ds model.

With Nikon having an upcoming D4x, the likes of which there is no mention I can see next weeks announcement as either a 1D5 or completely new camera altogether. Not a Ds

I hope I'm wrong as I need a replacement for my 1Ds3


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## Flake (Oct 13, 2011)

It has to be said that Canon have done a fantastic job hiding this camera, less than a week from launch & we still know nothing much about it! As a rumours site we should perhaps be looking at how they managed this, because any 5D MkII replacement is likely to be equally well hidden.


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## wockawocka (Oct 13, 2011)

Flake said:


> It has to be said that Canon have done a fantastic job hiding this camera, less than a week from launch & we still know nothing much about it! As a rumours site we should perhaps be looking at how they managed this, because any 5D MkII replacement is likely to be equally well hidden.



I bet NIkon know exactly what it is.


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## Takuma (Oct 13, 2011)

Been at the local Mediamarkt (Germany) just yesterday and while they had no 7D anywhere I was quite suprised to see the 5DII Body at 1749 â‚¬.


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## Stuart (Oct 13, 2011)

Hopes and dreams
A low cost FF - unlikely with 10fps, but sony NEX are very fast and cheap - FF for the masses - OK i'm dreaming as the rest of the camera's would be worthless.
Fourvon - possibly then MP makes sense, super DR. but again 54Mpixels being processed at 10+fps - unlikely
5Dmk3 @ 18MP - would confuse to many wedding togs untill they saw NATIVE 51200 ISO & great DR at f11 in a church.
APS- H OK but it says FF, maybe this is a mistake - rear lit APS-h with great speed and DR for olympics?
What's the hollywood event about next month, what could be released 2 weeks before that that might be releated to it?


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## wockawocka (Oct 13, 2011)

I've never really liked the 5D for weddings. Feels like a lens with a camera attached rather than a camera with a lens on it.


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## MartinvH (Oct 13, 2011)

Very plausible this rumor is CR3 because we already heard about the Canon Pro invitation in the Netherlands earlier this week on the 18 th october.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,1844.msg31590.html#msg31590

Canon would not invite professionals to an event if they have less to present like a Pro camera !

Combine that with the same rumors out of Singapore about the 18th october and together those rumors become more believable.


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## nikkito (Oct 13, 2011)

DarkKnightNine said:


> I really like the Nikon D3X but as a professional photographer with thousands of dollars invested in top quality L glass, it's just not possible to even consider switching. Not to mention I like and understand Canon lenses better than I do Nikon's. So whatever this new camera is, I hope it will at least be on par with or better than the Nikon D3X. I want a FF camera with great low light performance, high resolution and fast fps all in one sweet package. That's my dream camera. If this camera does all that, I'll buy two or maybe even three.



you can buy 4 and give one to me. Thanks in advance


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## nikkito (Oct 13, 2011)

you can all keep talking about the _wonders_ of Sony, but i would NEVER buy one. I would quit photography before having to use one of those ugly cameras


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## kirillica (Oct 13, 2011)

I agree on a hint it could be Foveon-like sensor Canon has patented. Then it's 18*3 = 54Mp, which is quite a lot. if D800 is also Foveon-like, then I assume their 36Mp should be devided on 3, which makes just 12 true Mpix. In this case new Canon-flagship will spoil D800 presentation


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## Gothmoth (Oct 13, 2011)

HTCahHTC said:


> If it's a D3s competitor, am I the only one who's thinking it's too late? Nikon MAY announce a D4 next year. And they probably may have some killer features...?



we know a S__t about the new camera but itÂ´s already too late.. yeah... :
canon should stop making cameras....




> D3s can't AF-C in 10 fps mode. A77 can



with other restrictions.. yes.

anyway. there is no lightspeed barrier that is impossible to break for canon.
12-14 frames per second are possible.


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## gmrza (Oct 13, 2011)

rbr said:


> Whatever this camera is called, it definitely won't replace the current 1D4 for a lot of people. It would be a huge step down for most wildlife and some sports photographers who use telephoto lenses. Suddenly you're going to have to be 30% closer to your subjects or have to crop and get less pixels on your subject than with the current 1D4. Although I have absolutely no interest or need for a fast full frame camera, it sounds from this thread that some people want such a contraption. I hope Canon makes them happy.



That is why I doubt a 1DIV replacement would have 18MP full frame. What sounds more plausible is the concept of the 1DIV replacement being a full frame camera with a 1.3 crop mode that yields 18MP. That would translate into just under 30.5MP in a full frame.

18MP full frame would probably result in a revolt of sports and wildlife shooters. If you use a 300mm on an APS-H sensor, you would need a 400mm on full frame. Just look at the price difference between a 300mm f/2.8 and a 400mm f/2.8.


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## NormanBates (Oct 13, 2011)

do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

and with a lower resolution it can also be faster, meaning less rolling shutter, and higher frame rates (60p not restricted to 720p)

so my bet is for a 3D, 6D or 8D with full frame, geared for video DSLR enthusiasts

(which one it is, and which price it comes out at, will probably depend on how fast it can shoot stills, and how the video is stored: if it is 1080p with a 4:2:2 codec, I expect 6D or 8D at $1500 to $2500 depending on quality of body; if it is sRAW video at 24fps, expect 3D at $4K or more)


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## Gothmoth (Oct 13, 2011)

NormanBates said:


> do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?
> 
> VIDEO
> 
> it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning



and it would fit to the 3 november event in hollywood.


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## dr croubie (Oct 13, 2011)

Gothmoth said:


> and it would fit to the 3 november event in hollywood.




But why would they announce it on Octember 18th, then announce it on November 3rd again?
Unless November 3rd is release date, and they actually have it in-stores by then?
3-weeks is still nowhere near apple's announce-to-stores speed, but it'd beat canon's latest performance with the year-long waits...


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## te4o (Oct 13, 2011)

So, do you think Canon will announce one Pro DSLR on 18 October AND another one on 3 Nov ?

I am with NormanBates - "only" 18 MP in 2011 means a lot more technology behind/among them than 21 MP in 2008. A new censor is on its way most probably. And I guess that from now on all Canons will have it in different sizes but this is just a guess. This definitely is a reason to delay announcements beyond the standard release dates.
Remember, when Ford was asked while setting up the Ford T production line whether he was guided by consumer demand he said - Ah, if I'd ask the consumers (users) what improved means of transport they need they'd say they just need faster horses... 
Do we merely talk "faster horses" here ?


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## Gothmoth (Oct 13, 2011)

canon does not have to announce 2 DSLR because they have two events.

18 october could be the announcement of the DSLR and on november 3 it could be about ron howards film project + the new camera.

a new video oriented camera would fit.

maybe ron howard used the new camera (8D?) for the imagin8tion movie?
what could be better to promote a new video DSLR camera?

just wild guesses sure...


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## niccyboy (Oct 13, 2011)

NormanBates said:


> do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?
> 
> VIDEO
> 
> ...



This could be cool. If only they could increase that FPS to stupid levels so we can have some fun like a mini phantom flex haha.

But why would they invite canon pro photographers? Wouldn't they try and get Film makers, videographers etc instead?

Most professional photographers do not also own Red Epics. Nor would most of them be in the market for them? Obviously the 50k+ price is a big stopping point, but more so... why would they need one? Combining the features into a PHOTOGRAPHIC camera yes, but what you described is a VIDEO machine... 

correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't it be presenting to the wrong audience?


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## Gothmoth (Oct 13, 2011)

niccyboy said:


> But why would they invite canon pro photographers? Wouldn't they try and get Film makers, videographers etc instead



i guess that is where november 3 comes in place....


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## ze (Oct 13, 2011)

kirillica said:


> I agree on a hint it could be Foveon-like sensor Canon has patented. Then it's 18*3 = 54Mp, which is quite a lot. if D800 is also Foveon-like, then I assume their 36Mp should be devided on 3, which makes just 12 true Mpix. In this case new Canon-flagship will spoil D800 presentation



I also think that if a new 1D Mark( ) get announced, it would be the with the new 3 layered sensor technology 18x3=54Mp. It was rumored before that we would see big improvement in dynamic range. Would this be it? We shall see.


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## dstppy (Oct 13, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> Gothmoth said:
> 
> 
> > and it would fit to the 3 november event in hollywood.
> ...



Maybe we're getting TWO bodies! ;D

What, I can be an optimist . . . hey, while I'm wishing, maybe they'll price the new full-frame DSLR under $3k


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## Fleetie (Oct 13, 2011)

kirillica said:


> I agree on a hint it could be Foveon-like sensor Canon has patented. Then it's 18*3 = 54Mp, which is quite a lot. if D800 is also Foveon-like, then I assume their 36Mp should be devided on 3, which makes just 12 true Mpix. In this case new Canon-flagship will spoil D800 presentation



Where on Earth do people keep getting this idea from? That an 18MPix Foveon-like sensor is equivalent to an (18*3) MPix "conventional" sensor?

I have seen this over and over on here recently, not just from the one poster, either.

AFAIK, 1 pixel on a conventional sensor consists of 1 each of {R, G, B} sub-pixels.

So in terms of quantity of data recorded, both are identical.

Unless I am really missing something?


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## Gothmoth (Oct 13, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor



> Comparison to Bayer filter sensors â€“ operational differences
> 
> The operation of the Foveon X3 sensor is quite different from that of the Bayer filter image sensor more commonly used in digital cameras. In the Bayer sensor, each photosite in the array consists of a single light sensor (either CMOS or CCD) that, as a result of filtration, is exposed to only one of the three primary colors, red, green, or blue. Constructing a full color image from a Bayer sensor requires demosaicing, an interpolative process in which the output pixel associated with each photosite is assigned an RGB value based in part on the level of red, green, and blue reported by those photosites adjacent to it. The Foveon X3 sensor creates its RGB color output for each photosite by combining the outputs of each of the stacked photodiodes at each of its photosites. This operational difference results in several significant consequences.
> .....
> ...



so the 3x pixel count is exaggerated for real world examples.
at least when it comes to foveon sensors.
donÂ´t know yet what canon can achive...


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## NormanBates (Oct 13, 2011)

te4o said:


> So, do you think Canon will announce one Pro DSLR on 18 October AND another one on 3 Nov ?



no, I think they'll announce a DSLR on 18 oct and a video camera on 3 nov

they may share the same sensor, but the video camera will have lots of pro features (XLR inputs, manual audio levels and headphones jack, peaking+zebras+histogram/waveform while recording, maybe even interchangeable lens mount for PL lenses, but that means APS-C sensor so let's hope not), and a price tag to match


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## NormanBates (Oct 13, 2011)

Fleetie said:


> AFAIK, 1 pixel on a conventional sensor consists of 1 each of {R, G, B} sub-pixels.



No: in a bayer sensor, each pixel (photosite) has just one color, whereas in a foveon sensor each pixel has all three colors

the 18mpix sensor in my canon DSLR has 9 million green photosites, 4.5 million red photosites, and 4.5 million blue photosites

that's why it looks so soft when debayered into an 18mpix RGB image


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## Justin (Oct 13, 2011)

OK, but it makes little sense from a product standpoint to create a DSLR just for video. No one wants that. DSLRs are form factored for still photos, hence the large expensive redrock aftermarket rigs you see everyone hauling around with a tiny dslr at the core fo them. 

While I could see all of the features you mention re: video coming in the next round of cameras, I seriously don't expect Canon to release a video-centric dslr. EF mount camcorder? Sure.

In my mind, the only way your idea works is if Canon makes the stills camera majority of this machine incredibly compelling. At 18mpx full frame I am not compelled to purchase. 



NormanBates said:


> do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?
> 
> VIDEO
> 
> ...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2011)

Fleetie said:


> AFAIK, 1 pixel on a conventional sensor consists of 1 each of {R, G, B} sub-pixels.
> Unless I am really missing something?



You are missing something. 1 pixel on a conventional CMOS or CCD sensor is one photosite, with no subpixels. Each pixel is covered by one color of the Bayer mask (R G G B). The de-mosaicing that occurs in RAW processing then uses adjacent pixels to interpolate the color for each pixel, and assign that color to the pixel. For example, take one photosite covered by a blue mask - that pixel is sensitive to blue light, and the software/firmware uses the data from the surrounding photosites to determine the actual color for that pixel. The interpolation means that some color information is lost, but the full spatial resolution is available.

Note that a similar issue comes up for the rear LCDs, where resolution is measured in 'dots'. The specs for the 5DII and 7D list LCDs with "Pixels: Approx. 920,000 dots (VGA)" although on their 5DII specs page, Canon leaves out the word 'dots' which makes it even more misleading than leaving it in. Nowhere do they tell you that dots ≠ pixels, although it's implied by 'VGA'. In fact, they count each red, blue, and green subpixel as a 'dot' so they are calculating display resolution as VGA x 3, i.e. 640 x 480 x 3 = 921,600 dots.



Fleetie said:


> Where on Earth do people keep getting this idea from? That an 18MPix Foveon-like sensor is equivalent to an (18*3) MPix "conventional" sensor?
> 
> So in terms of quantity of data recorded, both are identical.



For a Foveon-type, an 18 MP sensor is still equivalent to 18 MP in terms of spatial resolution, but unlike the conventional sensor, no color information is lost because each discrete spatial element 'sees' the full visible spectrum, with no interpolation required.

The confusion comes from the manufacturers - if they produce a 10 MP (spatial resolution) Foveon-type sensor, there are actually 30 million photosites, stacked in 10 million little columns of three. So even though it's really a 10 MP sensor, the marketing folks will obviously want to call it a 30 MP sensor, because we all know that more MP is better. :

As a side note, a Foveon-type sensor is just one way to achieve the effect, albeit a very practical way for a camera. In photomicroscopy, Zeiss has for many years produced a camera called the AxioCam, which uses a 1 MP CCD sensor plus 'tricks'. It can take 'standard' images at 1 MP with the Bayer mask and interpolate the colors. But one trick is to physically move the Bayer mask to make three separate exposures, so each pixel is exposed successively to R G B. Obvoiusly, not something that would work in a dSLR, but fixed specimens are amenable to sequential imaging like that (in fact, some current color microscope cameras are actually b/w cameras with a color filter wheel in front that rotates through R G B). Another trick ups the resolution - unlike current dSLRs, the CCD in the AxioCam has no microlenses, so each photosite only sees a small portion of the incoming light. So, Zeiss also moves the sensor around in sub-pixel increments to expose the photosensitive part of the pixel to different regions of the incoming light - a 2x2 array gives a 5 MP image, and a 3x3 array gives a 12 MP image. So, with those tricks a simple 1 MP sensor can generate a 12 MP image without any interpolated color! Of course, it takes 27 separate exposures to make that one image...


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## chito (Oct 13, 2011)

Maybe there is something to the Foveon type sensor rumor..
If digic 5 can process information 6 times faster than digic 4 (as claimed).. then why else would you need dual digic 5?

if on a 1DIV dual digic 4 has to process 16Mpix*10fps = 160Mpix/s

maaybe.. a 1DV with dual digic 5 would have to process 18Mpix*16fps*3 layers = 864Mpix/s

160 * 6 times processing speed = 960Mpix/s


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## sublime LightWorks (Oct 13, 2011)

NormanBates said:


> do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?
> 
> VIDEO
> 
> ...



This makes the most sense to me, meaning it's an ADDITION to the 1D line, not a replacement. I think we'll see another 1D as well for 2012 that the bread and butter sports shooter wants....these guys don't want to lug a 400mm if they don't have to, and if you move their system off the APS-H, they lose that 1.3 crop advantage (unless we get a crop mode built-in).

The speculated high frame rate for stills also hints at some new mechanism that probably was developed to improve the video shutter performance, with the by-product of higher still rates. Add the ISO performance for cleaner video images as well (fast shutter needs cleaner high ISO).

I think you're on to something here.


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## Warninglabel (Oct 13, 2011)

Some of you might know but I read this a few weeks ago



> Do you have thousands and thousands of dollars to spend, and also a love of super-high quality video? Then mark your calendar for November 3 when RED will be announcing details and shipping info for the new RED Scarlet video camera. RED has been making changes to the device in preparation for its debut, but CEO Jim Jannard is keeping things nice and vague for now.



This was from this post from Maximum PC http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/red_scarlet_be_officially_announced_november_3rd

This video camera is expected to sell for around $5000
and is a Still and motion camera 

Lots of stuff happening around November 3rd


----------



## Bob Howland (Oct 13, 2011)

sublime LightWorks said:


> NormanBates said:
> 
> 
> > do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?
> ...



Maybe the sports shooters' camera will be moved from APS-H to APS-C but kept at 16MP. I think you two are correct in that this camera will be an addition to the line, optimized for video and low light level shooting. I also expect its output to be 4:2:2, not Raw, and only 1920 X 1080. Raw output, especially 4k raw output, requires extremely fast storage and that level of sophistication will be reserved for camcorders that look like camcorders not DSLRs. Think competition for the Red Epic and Sony's F65.

But I also think that there will be a 1D-something, 27MP FF, introduced in the next few weeks. Whether it is a 1Ds4 or 1D5 will depend on how fast it is. If Digic 5 really can handle 480 million pixels/second, then 10FPS seems likely and 12-14FPS doesn't seem impossible.


----------



## DavidRiesenberg (Oct 13, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> In photomicroscopy, Zeiss has for many years produced a camera called the AxioCam, which uses a 1 MP CCD sensor plus 'tricks'. It can take 'standard' images at 1 MP with the Bayer mask and interpolate the colors. But one trick is to physically move the Bayer mask to make three separate exposures, so each pixel is exposed successively to R G B. Obvoiusly, not something that would work in a dSLR, but fixed specimens are amenable to sequential imaging like that (in fact, some current color microscope cameras are actually b/w cameras with a color filter wheel in front that rotates through R G B). Another trick ups the resolution - unlike current dSLRs, the CCD in the AxioCam has no microlenses, so each photosite only sees a small portion of the incoming light. So, Zeiss also moves the sensor around in sub-pixel increments to expose the photosensitive part of the pixel to different regions of the incoming light - a 2x2 array gives a 5 MP image, and a 3x3 array gives a 12 MP image. So, with those tricks a simple 1 MP sensor can generate a 12 MP image without any interpolated color! Of course, it takes 27 separate exposures to make that one image...



Isn't that what Hasselblad are doing with their "200" MP H4D ?


----------



## theuserjohnny (Oct 13, 2011)

niccyboy said:


> NormanBates said:
> 
> 
> > do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?
> ...



Pretty much this. When it comes down to it Canon is trying to please the photographers and not the filmmakers. They were caught off guard with how popular the Mark II became to video people. While Canon will continue from now on to add video to their DSLRs they're going to start to make money off of this by creating their new separate line of video camera products (hence the November 3rd event). 

Trust me I want a video DSLR as bad as the next person next to me (its why I have my Mark II). But if Canon were to hold an event for this, they would use the 7D and 5DII replacement as their flagship camera. I don't think they'll go RAW on these DSLRs (hence why they're coming out with the new video cameras to go against RED). At most these DSLRs will hopefully go up to 4:2:2. I mean at the moment 4:2:0 is great when coupled with the right software. 4:2:2 would just give it more pop and would make correction less of a pain.


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## clicstudio (Oct 13, 2011)

*I need a new 1D now! Mine has 300,000 shots already!*


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## K-amps (Oct 13, 2011)

bvukich said:


> I always wondered why they didn't have a drive mode where the mirror stays up for double or triple frames. Assuming sensor readout the shutter and write to buffer/flash could keep up, you could get 20 or 30 fps, and still get 10 FPS flashing in the viewfinder; which should be enough to track a subject under most circumstances.



+1


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## mortadella (Oct 13, 2011)

Something has to be inaccurate with those specs...

As many have already mentioned if the new camera has 16-18MP I'd be very surprised if it were to end up being a 1 series camera.

The rest of the spec list seems 1 series worthy (ISO, AF..) 

So something has to give, either the MP spec is off, or the the rumor of the camera is confirmed and the specs are a big reach. 

There have been a lot of rumors over the past 3 months or so stating we aren't going to see a new DSLR announcement this year, and before that there was talk of a new 1D, 1Ds, 5D or even a new 6D.

I'd say this could be anything I wouldn't bank on a 1D especially considering the spec list just isn't plausible. Canon isn't getting out of the megapixel race, and deep down we all know that.


----------



## Woody (Oct 13, 2011)

mortadella said:


> Canon isn't getting out of the megapixel race, and deep down we all know that.



Canon released the 10 MP S90 and G11 at a time when everyone expected them to top the 15 MP G10. The truth is no one knows anything for sure.

I'm betting on mirrorless camera. Others are praying for 1D5, 5D3, 1Ds4 etc etc


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2011)

K-amps said:


> bvukich said:
> 
> 
> > I always wondered why they didn't have a drive mode where the mirror stays up for double or triple frames. Assuming sensor readout the shutter and write to buffer/flash could keep up, you could get 20 or 30 fps, and still get 10 FPS flashing in the viewfinder; which should be enough to track a subject under most circumstances.
> ...



+0.5. I've thought about this, too...but the times when you most want a fast frame rate are with rapidly-moving subjects, and that's when you most need AF between frames. I wouldn't want 30 fps as in-focus -> a little OOF -> a little more OOF -> in focus -> etc. Heck, even the S100 I pre-ordered will hit nearly 10 fps (9.6) if it doesn't AF between shots.


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## lol (Oct 13, 2011)

On multiple shots per mirror flip, sometimes I have wondered if it would be nice to have focus bracketing if you make the assumption the tracking focus will not be 100% anyway. Perhaps user settable equivalent to a few units of micro-focus adjust either side of nominal, could be done as the tracking is done to minimise the focus travel distance.


----------



## RichST (Oct 13, 2011)

NormanBates said:


> do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?
> 
> VIDEO
> 
> it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning



True that lower mp counts are better for video, but what do you mean by easy 4-to-1 pixel binning? If it's what I'm thinking you'd needs lots of megapixels to get to 1080 (1920x4=7680, which would mean about 39mp) and wouldn't need debayering. Maybe you're thinking of what Kodak calls 2x2 binning? (which is apparently very different than what other companies refer to as 2x2 binning). I think RED uses a full scan mode on its sensors that doesn't need binning; every pixel gets read. Now some sort of crop mode with a full readout could work.


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## Meh (Oct 13, 2011)

lol said:


> On multiple shots per mirror flip, sometimes I have wondered if it would be nice to have focus bracketing if you make the assumption the tracking focus will not be 100% anyway. Perhaps user settable equivalent to a few units of micro-focus adjust either side of nominal, could be done as the tracking is done to minimise the focus travel distance.



Good idea but I wouldn't suggest "either side of normal" because that would have the focus elements moving back and forth very rapidly and would cause a lot of stops and change of direction which is hard on the motors and gears and defeats the purpose of Ai Servo which is predictive as to the direction of movement. The small adjustment you suggest for the "multiple frames between mirror flips" could just keep moving the focus elements in the same calculated direction until the next time the mirror flips down and the AF sensor can make a new focus measurement.


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## bvukich (Oct 13, 2011)

Meh said:


> lol said:
> 
> 
> > On multiple shots per mirror flip, sometimes I have wondered if it would be nice to have focus bracketing if you make the assumption the tracking focus will not be 100% anyway. Perhaps user settable equivalent to a few units of micro-focus adjust either side of nominal, could be done as the tracking is done to minimise the focus travel distance.
> ...



That's how I would see it working. Just keep moving the focus at the calculated rate until the next AF sample, and refine from there. You're still getting AF samples at 10 per second, and on a fast moving subject AI Servo would have the AF motor moving continuously anyhow. May as well get a few extra frames in there.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 13, 2011)

bvukich said:


> That's how I would see it working. Just keep moving the focus at the calculated rate until the next AF sample, and refine from there. You're still getting AF samples at 10 per second, and on a fast moving subject AI Servo would have the AF motor moving continuously anyhow. May as well get a few extra frames in there.



Makes sense. But presumably each exposure would need to end with a shutter curtain - will the shutter reset be sufficiently fast?


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## Ivar (Oct 13, 2011)

As for many here, 18MP is beyond me. 

I don't believe that Canon is going to introduce another 3rd 1-series cameras, that would be costly to manage, rather I believe the opposite meaning merge (not in the current case though). 

Now, one proposed explanation was more than 10fps for the new cam, meaning Canon is not that bad in data processing capabilities. However, 18MP is completely 180-degree turn by Canon, a slap in the face for former users. A new religion must be introduced by marketing. 

Trying to rationalize the global picture, less megapixels could explain a new 30+ (only!) 1Ds, which would have been skipped by potential buyers if the 1D was having something like 27MP (upscaled 1D MK4), fullfilling majority of users needs. The key here is to keep enough difference in MP to sell both.

For all high ISO fans - it is not the MP you are after but rather the sensor size, 30MP wouldn't make it worse than 18MP in print using the same technology, rather the opposite, more sensels enable better IQ.


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## EYEONE (Oct 13, 2011)

bvukich said:


> Meh said:
> 
> 
> > lol said:
> ...



Interesting idea. It seems like that would work to me but would the calculation require a bit of processing power by processors that are already being taxed by shooting at 20 or 30fps? Perhaps it is an easier calculation that I think. Something to consider though.


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## Ricku (Oct 13, 2011)

I can't believe that no one has stepped forth yet and confirmed or denied these rumors..?

Comeon! Theres gotta be lots of people out there who knows what is coming. Lets hear it!


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## lol (Oct 13, 2011)

Meh said:


> Good idea but I wouldn't suggest "either side of normal" because that would have the focus elements moving back and forth very rapidly and would cause a lot of stops and change of direction which is hard on the motors and gears and defeats the purpose of Ai Servo which is predictive as to the direction of movement. The small adjustment you suggest for the "multiple frames between mirror flips" could just keep moving the focus elements in the same calculated direction until the next time the mirror flips down and the AF sensor can make a new focus measurement.


I'm not sure it would be that big a hit in performance if the bracketing isn't too extreme. Remember I'm only thinking about hedging the bets on relatively small errors, say up to +/- 1 DoF worth or so, not suggesting you do a focus stack! I'm assuming there might be times where having multiple shots at different focus distances would give you a better chance of a good shot than a single conventional track, particularly if relatively shallow DoF is used.

So assuming a 3 shot tracking focus bracket, the 1st shot would under-correct for where the focus thinks the target would be. The 2nd shot would be where the target is expected, and the 3rd shot would go a bit further. Of course the position would need to be based on where the subject is predicted to be at the time of exposure. If the subject isn't changing distance fast, then it should be even easier to move around. If it is moving lens rate limited then you could have custom function options for bracket priority (spend the time to move to position before the shot) or release priority (take the shots even if desired focus point isn't reached) for example.

Stepping back a bit, focus stacking for single-shot AF would be nice too


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## iaind (Oct 13, 2011)

Ricku said:


> I can't believe that no one has stepped forth yet and confirmed or denied these rumors..?
> 
> Comeon! Theres gotta be lots of people out there who knows what is coming. Lets hear it!



Most are covered by NDA's

Can't wait to get my hands on the 1DsIV 1DV 5DIII and 7DII


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## Smith (Oct 13, 2011)

If Canon is launching a 1D with the rumored specs I suspect that this camera is focused on video. Dual DIGIC V seems like an overkill for a 16-18 megapixel sensor even with high frame rates. A lower resolution sensor would make sense if it has been designed for video applications.


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## Ghostdive (Oct 13, 2011)

Smith said:


> If Canon is launching a 1D with the rumored specs I suspect that this camera is focused on video. Dual DIGIC V seems like an overkill for a 16-18 megapixel sensor even with high frame rates. A lower resolution sensor would make sense if it has been designed for video applications.



I hope its not video. A 1D is maybe within my pricerange. And i'm more for still. If I want video I buy a cam to get the best out of it. Video on DSLR is a nice gimick, but not a must have.

A 1D with arround 21 mpix would be nice.


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## ippikiokami (Oct 13, 2011)

So can you round up the reasons why you think it's a 1d body release again? 

It's just weird to think they would release a new versions of their most updated pro body... 

1ds III, 5d2, 7d, 1d IV ... in order of oldest to newest??

Also why do you consider that the best spec list?

I'm not doubting you but I would love some references to where you are getting the info. Even if you say something like one of my most reliable informants... etc


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## unfocused (Oct 13, 2011)

I feel like I'm the only one who actually read Canon Rumors Guy's post. He gave a CR3 rating to the announcement of a DSLR of some sort and no rating to the spec list.

People are treating the spec list as though it has some validity. Maybe it does, but that was not what the original post indicated.


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## K-amps (Oct 13, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > bvukich said:
> ...



I am new to the hobby compared to you guys/pros and have probably only taken about 40k-50k digital pics so far (I have 30k on my PC plus gobs that I throw away).

In those 40-50k, not once do I remember taking a burst with an object moving towards me where I needed AF on every frame. (Not saying others don't need it), but I have never needed it... so I may be in the minority here while I say, I'd rather have 10+fps with 1-3 AF's in between.

Most of my subjects move laterally (requiring little AF adjustment in a burst situation) or are hyper-mobile hills. Now that I have said it... I suspect I am going to regret saying it


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## Gothmoth (Oct 13, 2011)

unfocused said:


> I feel like I'm the only one who actually read Canon Rumors Guy's post.






CR Guy said:


> What camera? No [CR] rating on this yet.
> Everything is pointing to a new 1D series camera, I am getting zero information from sources or from anywhere else on the web about any other camera.



so at least all seems to point to a 1D camera.
that for the guys who ask why we all discuss a new 1D model.

personally i think it will be an FF model that fits between the 7D and 5D.
but maybe thats only because i would like to see it.  

as to the spec list... i donÂ´t think itÂ´s written in stone.


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## Fred_ (Oct 13, 2011)

Did anyone notice the hunch on the viewfinder in the tease? That means full frame, I'm thinking 1DS, they won't do anything crazily unexpected with the pro segment. Big departures from the present lines are fine for people who like spec sheets, but not for people who depend on this stuff for a living. They have always put a lot of attention in having the user of the previous model be right at home on the new camera. 

Also, they have a bit of an arrogance in thinking they can make brilliant small sensors (exhibit a: 7D) with many pixels on them... so why not put some more pixels on some bigger sensors?

Except of course if they pull a full 180Â° and go the backlit sensors route. But from what I've heard, that can't really be done on larger sensors.


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## K-amps (Oct 13, 2011)

lol said:


> On multiple shots per mirror flip, sometimes I have wondered if it would be nice to have focus bracketing if you make the assumption the tracking focus will not be 100% anyway. Perhaps user settable equivalent to a few units of micro-focus adjust either side of nominal, could be done as the tracking is done to minimise the focus travel distance.



+1

Thats something I would love to have, Focus and exposure bracketing in at least 5 steps (if not 7)... Both are software driven functions and should not be a huge deal to implement.


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## Justin (Oct 13, 2011)

You are correct about the rumor categories. But We all read it. We're reacting to the notion that CR guy posted his best spec list that seems hard to believe given the current state of canon's dev. trajectory and product lineup. 

CR guy is describing a lord of darkness married with the perrenial rumored favorite canon 3D video-related rumors. First time many of us have been presented with this kind of rumor, at least in awhile. 

In any case at least there is a CR3 rumor even if it is just a marker for a new dslr. Been so sad in canon rumor land for sooooo long.



unfocused said:


> I feel like I'm the only one who actually read Canon Rumors Guy's post. He gave a CR3 rating to the announcement of a DSLR of some sort and no rating to the spec list.
> 
> People are treating the spec list as though it has some validity. Maybe it does, but that was not what the original post indicated.


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## Fred_ (Oct 13, 2011)

Justin said:


> We all read it. We're reacting to the notion that CR guy posted his best spec list that seems hard to believe given the current state of canon's dev. trajectory and product lineup.



My thoughts exactly, they would not give up the ultra high MP lineup queen, 
it's a prestige thing if not for anything else, they need it for branding reasons. A new 1D is going to come eventually, but I think people are being very happy with the mk.4 up to this point. I'm not sure there's that much need to act, especially because the people who use these things have accountants too... they don't change cameras every couple of month. Not unless the new model means a load of cash beyond what they're making right now.


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## htjunkie (Oct 13, 2011)

I know what's gonna happen, and why no one can get the specs. They are gonna make an Earth-shattering announcement: a pro body DSLR that shoots/records at about 12 MP at 30 FPS (4K video). It will shoot video in a stupidly high resolution at 30FPS, and every single frame will be big enough for a 13x19" print. 8)

</dream_mode>


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## victorengel (Oct 13, 2011)

Suddenly I no longer have any faith in CR3 ratings.


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## ippikiokami (Oct 13, 2011)

Gothmoth said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I feel like I'm the only one who actually read Canon Rumors Guy's post.
> ...



If these are directed at me.. I read the post fully, along with all the other post here almost daily since the blog was started.

Again the thing is. If there is any validity to the spec list. I would love any information at all. If it's just a amalgam of every wish list that he's gotten. Then that would be great information also. Not just. Hey These are the best possible specs (because ???).

Also ... everything pointing to 1d? So why is it different now than just a few weeks / months ago to everything pointing to no dslr? Are you getting insider information? Or is it like us that just google the heck out of internet for any possible info? Either explanation is fine. But if you do have any "exclusive" info that might point to one thing or another it would be great to just say hey. I heard it from a guy that was right in the past.

It's not like I'm even asking for things that the CR guy hasn't done in the past already. It just seems this particular post is just thrown up there.


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## ecka (Oct 13, 2011)

1] No new DSLR announcements in November-December. October is their last chance in 2011.
2] I'm pretty sure it would be a 1D5, not 1Ds4. All Canon 1D/1Ds Marks and their Digic processors had the same number. Digic5 is already here, so it must be 1D5 then 
3] Both new 1D and 5D will have the same sensor. No 6D, no 3D, no 2D, no 8D, no 4D, no any other "entry level" FF DSLR, a used 5D or 5D2 is your entry level. 5D2 should not be discontinued once 5D3 is released, big price drop expected ($2000?). I don't think that Canon could drop the APS-H just to make another, parallel FF line. It's more about sharing the same sensor and adding more features while keeping the sane price.
4] If there will be a new Canon Medium Format camera, it won't have 1Ds name on it. Different mount = different system.
5] New APS-C sensor next year for all new crop bodies - 7D2, 70D and 650D.
6] FF Foveon? Yes, please. Better details, better color, why not? But I really don't expect to see it in Canon body any time soon.
7] I could be wrong


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## NormanBates (Oct 13, 2011)

what I have in mind for a video-centric 16-18Mpix sensor is:

* it makes sense to build it for the nov3 camcorder, then put it also on a video-centric, cheaper, DSLR (shared R&D costs, not too many videocamera canibalization because of the lack of bells and whistles that the pro video guys need)

* you can do two very sensible things with such a sensor, depending on how good it is (and how expensive it is to make it):

- put it in a cheaper version of the 5D2 body (same size, same AF, same everything, but no magnesium and/or no weather sealing; also, swivel screen), call it 6D or 8D, and sell it as an entry-level full frame camera for <$2K; the video-centric sensor delivers 1080p60 4:2:2 without aliasing/moire, which is absolutely awesome, but there is no manual audio, XLR inputs, zebras, waveform, peaking, etc., so you can still sell the camcorder for 4x the price; resolution is lower, AF is old, body is weaker, so you can still sell the 5D2 for $200 more, and eventual 5D3 for $3K

- put it in a close-to-pro-but-not-quite body, with the 7D AF or better, and make it able to shoot short bursts of, say, 50 stills in a second, stored in full raw, with full electronic shutter (so it is rolling shutter, but a fast sensor designed for video could make this a very minor problem; the bigger problem, as discussed here, would be: no AF between shots unless -quite unlikely- pellicle mirror); call it 3D or 2D, and sell it for $5K, still under the videocamera price, which shoots the same video but has all the bells and whistles; it caters to a very specific niche so you also keep on selling the eventual 1D+1Ds reflesh blend (high speed, high MPix, low light, colossal price)

edit: also, for people thinking RAW video, or even 50 full raw still in a second, is too much bandwith direced to your poor CF card... yes, it is, but if you put a thunderbold port in the camera (as Canon is rumoured to be doing relatively soon) you can write directly to an external SSD drive, which brings all this closer to attainable



RichST said:


> but what do you mean by easy 4-to-1 pixel binning?



I mean: read the full 5K sensor, then average every 4 neighbouring same-color photosites (R=r+r+r+r, etc) to create a 2.5K bayer pattern; store that (which would be awesome) or, in a second step, debayer this to get a sharp 1080p image without aliasing/moire, with lower computational power required (uninformed guess; ur may require digic V to have a dedicated pipeline for averaging in the first step, but I don't think you need a lot of transistors for that)


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## Justin (Oct 14, 2011)

Amen on the Thunderbolt!



NormanBates said:


> edit: also, for people thinking RAW video, or even 50 full raw still in a second, is too much bandwith direced to your poor CF card... yes, it is, but if you put a thunderbold port in the camera (as Canon is rumoured to be doing relatively soon) you can write directly to an external SSD drive, which brings all this closer to attainable
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## RichST (Oct 14, 2011)

NormanBates said:


> I mean: read the full 5K sensor, then average every 4 neighbouring same-color photosites (R=r+r+r+r, etc) to create a 2.5K bayer pattern; store that (which would be awesome) or, in a second step, debayer this to get a sharp 1080p image without aliasing/moire, with lower computational power required (uninformed guess; ur may require digic V to have a dedicated pipeline for averaging in the first step, but I don't think you need a lot of transistors for that)



Hmm, that sounds like what Sony calls average addition, is the illustration on the left what you're thinking of?:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OF-8i5SSt8c/TmJupjVNJOI/AAAAAAAAA8M/mwjoTCKjA2E/s1600/Sony+2011_8-15.JPG

What Sony does from that point on with the pixels isn't made clear, they could be doing what Kodak does or could just be making a smaller Bayer pattern 1/9 the size of the original (which won't fix moire). What Kodak calls 2x2 binning applies the same addition idea but applies it to every pixel on the sensor, as found on page 29 of this spec sheet:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kodak.com%2Fek%2FUS%2Fen%2FKAI-10100LongSpec.htm&rct=j&q=kodak%20kai-10100%202x2&ei=qaKXTuiBOIOhsQK4hLWwBA&usg=AFQjCNGwarWPl7je696s_eaGgwSI5rFtCg

That's probably a decent way to do binning. If that doesn't work then maybe they should just pillage a few engineers from Panasonic, apparently they know a thing or two about binning


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## Mencho(22) (Oct 14, 2011)

Something is really going on...

Today i received an email from CPS Mexico with the subject "Wait for the best for profesional photographers" and this image:


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## gmrza (Oct 14, 2011)

ecka said:


> 3] Both new 1D and 5D will have the same sensor. No 6D, no 3D, no 2D, no 8D, no 4D, no any other "entry level" FF DSLR, a used 5D or 5D2 is your entry level. 5D2 should not be discontinued once 5D3 is released, big price drop expected ($2000?). I don't think that Canon could drop the APS-H just to make another, parallel FF line. It's more about sharing the same sensor and adding more features while keeping the sane price.


Basing the 1D5 and 5D3 around the same sensor would be an interesting departure, in terms of the positioning of the 5D, but more interestingly in terms of achieving economies of manufacturing scale, due to the number of 5Ds that Canon sells.

That would also preserve sales of the 1Ds line, because photographers who really need super-high resolution would not have the option of the 5D line as an alternative.

If this happens, I would expect a sensor that is shared by the 1D5 and 5D3 to be in the region of 27 to 32MP - definitely higher than 18MP.



> 5] New APS-C sensor next year for all new crop bodies - 7D2, 70D and 650D.


Has Canon painted itself into a corner here by allowing the 600D and 60D to reach the same sensor as the 7D well before Canon really needs to replace the 7D? It would be difficult for Canon to update the x0D or xx0D lines, especially with a new sensor, before releasing the 7D2.

What this all does still beg the question of is whether Canon would consider a lower MP full frame body. That is probably dependent on the economics of producing the sensor. There are probably a lot of enthusiasts who are still put off by the price of the 5D2, but who would pay a price somewhere above that of a 60D, maybe as much as a 7D for a full frame body.


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## moreorless (Oct 14, 2011)

gmrza said:


> That would also preserve sales of the 1Ds line, because photographers who really need super-high resolution would not have the option of the 5D line as an alternative.



I'm guessing that more money could potentially be lost on 5D sales(worse potential shifts to Nikons rumoureds D800) than gained on 1Ds sales though.

A 1D/1Ds merge seems like it could have the same effect with that model having FPS and a cropping mode over the 5D mk3 aswell as AF and build.

The market for ultra high megapixels in a transportable body(800-900G rather than 1200-1300g) for landscape/travel is I'd say significant.


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## John Thomas (Oct 14, 2011)

AFAIS I think that the "18MP" bit leads to a Foveon sensor. 

Which is good, imho.

But this leads also to a marketing challenge. How they will tell the people that this, compared with nowaday Bayer sensors, means very good performance? I don't see how they would overpass this learning curve of their market.

...and this is bad, imho.

Just my2c


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## Woody (Oct 14, 2011)

ecka said:


> 6] FF Foveon? Yes, please. Better details, better color, why not? But I really don't expect to see it in Canon body any time soon.



From what I hear, Foveon sensors have an issue with color accuracy. Of course, the folks who made this claim may be wrong. Or maybe Canon has a solution to this.

Then again, why does everyone think adoption of Foveon sensors is the best solution to all Canon sensor problems? Canon's dynamic range issue has more to do with their sensor electronic layout than anything else (not pixel size etc).


----------



## J. McCabe (Oct 14, 2011)

NormanBates said:


> RichST said:
> 
> 
> > but what do you mean by easy 4-to-1 pixel binning?
> ...



AFAIK, averaging isn't [necessarily] part of binning. E.g. what a former employer of mine did was add up four adjacent pixels, making up a larger more light sensitive (read: higher ISO) pixel. As light was low, burnt pixels were very rare.

[It was an intra-oral camera, so there were both sensor size issues and heating issues. I still think this could have been resolved without resorting to binning, but that's beside the issue.]

Also note averaging will soften the image.


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## te4o (Oct 14, 2011)

The tension here is building up - I could not discover any other previous thread in the forum longer than this one (except "What do you expect from the 5DIII - 18 pages) since May 2011 - I can't imagine what disappointment could follow if a rumour like this proves wrong in more than one aspect - this is quite a bit of pressure on our poor host. Let's relieve it - the 19 of October has a lot more wisdom than all our speculations. I will continue reading CR after this date even if nothing is announced.


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## ecka (Oct 14, 2011)

Woody said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > 6] FF Foveon? Yes, please. Better details, better color, why not? But I really don't expect to see it in Canon body any time soon.
> ...


Yes, but it has the potential


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## Stuart (Oct 14, 2011)

I find it interesting that the Singapore announcement talked of families of EOS devices, if a Foevon device came into the family would this matter.
The 7D was a new family member that very popular.

At the moment i'd guess that its FF Foevon with a dual digic v and there is a video version in 3 weeks in hollywood.


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## ecka (Oct 14, 2011)

gmrza said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > 3] Both new 1D and 5D will have the same sensor. No 6D, no 3D, no 2D, no 8D, no 4D, no any other "entry level" FF DSLR, a used 5D or 5D2 is your entry level. 5D2 should not be discontinued once 5D3 is released, big price drop expected ($2000?). I don't think that Canon could drop the APS-H just to make another, parallel FF line. It's more about sharing the same sensor and adding more features while keeping the sane price.
> ...



That is correct. I believe it will be around 30MP



gmrza said:


> > 5] New APS-C sensor next year for all new crop bodies - 7D2, 70D and 650D.
> 
> 
> Has Canon painted itself into a corner here by allowing the 600D and 60D to reach the same sensor as the 7D well before Canon really needs to replace the 7D? It would be difficult for Canon to update the x0D or xx0D lines, especially with a new sensor, before releasing the 7D2.
> ...


Yes, I'm expecting 7D2 to be the first (spring release season) and 70D to be the last (late summer) while 650D being somewhere in between or in a company with one of those (probably 7D2). On the other hand, all of them could be announced at the same time (spring release) and leave the late summer/autumn (photokina?) event for something else, like 5D3 if it's not coming this month .
Then again there is a problem, if a "cheap FF" will be born at 7D's price point, it could be "the end" for the 7D. I wouldn't buy a crop camera over FF for the same price. Would you?


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## NormanBates (Oct 14, 2011)

ecka said:


> Then again there is a problem, if a "cheap FF" will be born at 7D's price point, it could be "the end" for the 7D. I wouldn't buy a crop camera over FF for the same price. Would you?



Yes, if I needed better AF and a faster burst mode

but you're right: that may be a relatively small market


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 14, 2011)

NormanBates said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Then again there is a problem, if a "cheap FF" will be born at 7D's price point, it could be "the end" for the 7D. I wouldn't buy a crop camera over FF for the same price. Would you?
> ...



Canon isn't foolish - they'll want to keep a high-end crop camera. Lots of people upgrading from a Rebel/xxxD or an xxD will have EF-S lenses, and they've shown there's a demand for a top-of-the-line in the APS-C segment. The 5DII AF is already a handicap. If they release a 'cheap' FF camera, it will have many handicaps compared to the 7D line (not just a weak AF, but likely xxD build, probably only 3 fps, etc.).

Let's be honest here - many of us, as consumers, want a FF camera with pro AF, enough MP for a decent 1.3x or 1.6x mode, 8-10 fps, excellent build, and priced under $3K. Could Canon build such a camera? I bet they could. Will they? Of course not. Their goal is not to make us happy, it's to make money and turn a profit for their shareholders. As such, they will fragment the market to the largest extent possible, so they have something in every price category yet leave room for people to aspire to the next one up the line. Have $1K - get an xxD, but not the best APS-C. Have $1.5K, get a 7D, best APS-C but not FF. Have $2.5K - get a 5DII, FF but slow and weak AF. Have $4K - get a 7D _and_ a 5DII, great combination, but then you have two camera to carry, or choose one to take out. Have $5K - get the APS-H compromise, some great features, but not FF. Have $7K, get the 1DsIV (hopefully, we'll see that next, please!) - it's the top of the line. But then you need longer lenses.


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## adhocphotographer (Oct 14, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Let's be honest here - many of us, as consumers, want a FF camera with pro AF, enough MP for a decent 1.3x or 1.6x mode, 8-10 fps, excellent build, and priced under $3K. Could Canon build such a camera? I bet they could. Will they? Of course not. Their goal is not to make us happy, it's to make money and turn a profit for their shareholders. As such, they will fragment the market to the largest extent possible, so they have something in every price category yet leave room for people to aspire to the next one up the line. Have $1K - get an xxD, but not the best APS-C. Have $1.5K, get a 7D, best APS-C but not FF. Have $2.5K - get a 5DII, FF but slow and weak AF. Have $4K - get a 7D _and_ a 5DII, great combination, but then you have two camera to carry, or choose one to take out. Have $5K - get the APS-H compromise, some great features, but not FF. Have $7K, get the 1DsIV (hopefully, we'll see that next, please!) - it's the top of the line. But then you need longer lenses.



Agreed... whatever appears in the next month (or 6) will be planned to form a similar segmented market...

So roll on the next body announcments and bring on a new round of speculation...


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## gmrza (Oct 14, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> NormanBates said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...



I think the 7D also has an important place for wildlife photographers. I don't have a lot of experience with shooting wildlife, but I would say that the 7D makes a good choice for working on foot in areas where you have to carry everything, including your tent on your back. Canon will need to keep a high end APS-C camera to compete with Nikon and Sony.


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## ecka (Oct 14, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> NormanBates said:
> 
> 
> > ecka said:
> ...


That's exactly my point. Combine FF sensor with 60D body + 60D AF + 3fps and it's already better than 5D2, isn't it? However, Canon could produce a mirrorless FF camera at $2000 price point with the intention to please the videography market, while killing the M4/3 and NEX (even Leica?) at the same time. Why don't they?

EDIT:
Talking about the longer lenses. FF body with a teleconverter would give you similar (or better) result to what a crop body is capable of.


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## Tiho (Oct 14, 2011)

ecka said:


> Combine FF sensor with 60D body + 60D AF + 3fps and it's already better than 5D2, isn't it?




YouÂ´ll get FF with the same AF, worse fps + worse build quality. How is that better than 5D2?


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## EYEONE (Oct 14, 2011)

Tiho said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Combine FF sensor with 60D body + 60D AF + 3fps and it's already better than 5D2, isn't it?
> ...



Actually the 5DII only has 1 cross type AF point while the 60D has 9. So the 60D, technically, has the surperior AF system. But it's kinda like a race between two turtles...


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## ecka (Oct 14, 2011)

Tiho said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > Combine FF sensor with 60D body + 60D AF + 3fps and it's already better than 5D2, isn't it?
> ...


Well, obviously, it would have a new FF sensor, Digic5 and 60D AF is actually better. I forgot that 5D2 has 3.9fps, not 3fps, I meant to make those equal. I'm sure that for $1500 it would sell like hot cakes and nobody would care about "worse build quality".


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## caruser (Oct 14, 2011)

Couldn't they jump just a bit over this boring market segmentation thing and bring out a 5D3 with the 7D's AF just to sell more big glass?


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## Canon 14-24 (Oct 14, 2011)

Any potential lens rumors that will come with the new eos body?


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## K-amps (Oct 14, 2011)

I keep coming to this thread and see how Lack of any news/ leaks from Canon has all of us in a Frenzy here... now THAT's marketing ;D


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## Picsfor (Oct 14, 2011)

Do not think it is a 5D3, Jessops seem quite ok with stock. As are they with 60D and 7D. 1D seemed a bit more suspect...


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## EYEONE (Oct 14, 2011)

Canon 14-24 said:


> Any potential lens rumors that will come with the new eos body?



I'd love a 14-24mm f2.8L as your name suggests


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## Stuart (Oct 14, 2011)

K-amps said:


> I keep coming to this thread and see how Lack of any news/ leaks from Canon has all of us in a Frenzy here... now THAT's marketing ;D


+1, i've also bee doing my own google searches and canon news feeds hoping for somethin CR guy may have missed - can't find anything.

I couldn't afford anything up towards the high end anyway -- yet i'm still bothered - grrr, why is that?


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## niko (Oct 14, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon isn't foolish - they'll want to keep a high-end crop camera. Lots of people upgrading from a Rebel/xxxD or an xxD will have EF-S lenses, and they've shown there's a demand for a top-of-the-line in the APS-C segment. The 5DII AF is already a handicap. If they release a 'cheap' FF camera, it will have many handicaps compared to the 7D line (not just a weak AF, but likely xxD build, probably only 3 fps, etc.).
> 
> Let's be honest here - many of us, as consumers, want a FF camera with pro AF, enough MP for a decent 1.3x or 1.6x mode, 8-10 fps, excellent build, and priced under $3K. Could Canon build such a camera? I bet they could. Will they? Of course not. Their goal is not to make us happy, it's to make money and turn a profit for their shareholders. As such, they will fragment the market to the largest extent possible, so they have something in every price category yet leave room for people to aspire to the next one up the line. Have $1K - get an xxD, but not the best APS-C. Have $1.5K, get a 7D, best APS-C but not FF. Have $2.5K - get a 5DII, FF but slow and weak AF. Have $4K - get a 7D _and_ a 5DII, great combination, but then you have two camera to carry, or choose one to take out. Have $5K - get the APS-H compromise, some great features, but not FF. Have $7K, get the 1DsIV (hopefully, we'll see that next, please!) - it's the top of the line. But then you need longer lenses.



Therein lies the problem for Canon. The current strategy of segmentation (and handicapping) may no longer work, as other competitors have upped the pressure, and really taken advantage by offering more advanced features in the bodies that compete in the (higher priced) market segments.

I for one believe that a response/course correction is (over)due from Canon and that should become clear in the 
(hopefully very) near future.


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## moreorless (Oct 14, 2011)

niko said:


> Therein lies the problem for Canon. The current strategy of segmentation (and handicapping) may no longer work, as other competitors have upped the pressure, and really taken advantage by offering more advanced features in the bodies that compete in the (higher priced) market segments.
> 
> I for one believe that a response/course correction is (over)due from Canon and that should become clear in the
> (hopefully very) near future.



I wouldnt be supprized if Canon kept the same tactics but shifted advances downwards. With AF for ever they could go from 1D/1Ds merged body with full pro AF to the 5D mk3 with 7D AF and a budget FF "6D" with basic AF. The same could happen with the Crop bodies with the 7D mk2 getting full pro AF to set it appart from the 5D mk3 and the xxD the 7D's AF to set it appart from the xxxD's that remain basic.

If you merge the 1D/1Ds then superior FPS could be another way to differentiate it from the 5D mk3 to make up for the AF standards being closer.


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## K-amps (Oct 14, 2011)

Stuart said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > I keep coming to this thread and see how Lack of any news/ leaks from Canon has all of us in a Frenzy here... now THAT's marketing ;D
> ...



And someone just smited me for that observation... :-X


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## nikkito (Oct 14, 2011)

Stuart said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > I keep coming to this thread and see how Lack of any news/ leaks from Canon has all of us in a Frenzy here... now THAT's marketing ;D
> ...



you're not alone, guys ;D 8)


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## kirillica (Oct 14, 2011)

To answer what Canon can or can't, I will post one quote from friend of mine:


> Why microwave owen manufactures can't put a small battery in it, so clock won't resettled each time it's out of electricity. Sure they can. But then they have no goals to "achieve".


The same thing is happening now. Sure Canon and other parties can do a lot of good things. But they will run out of ideas (or "achievements") very soon. And even the next camera is a huge jump in technology (comparing with one was produced 3 years ago), it still has a lot of things "to be improved" in the feature.


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## K-amps (Oct 14, 2011)

Stuart said:


> K-amps said:
> 
> 
> > I keep coming to this thread and see how Lack of any news/ leaks from Canon has all of us in a Frenzy here... now THAT's marketing ;D
> ...



I tell you what... maybe we can pick up used 5d2/ 7d's at great prices once neuroanatomist upgrades to the new bodies.


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## RichST (Oct 14, 2011)

J. McCabe said:


> AFAIK, averaging isn't [necessarily] part of binning. E.g. what a former employer of mine did was add up four adjacent pixels, making up a larger more light sensitive (read: higher ISO) pixel. As light was low, burnt pixels were very rare.
> 
> [It was an intra-oral camera, so there were both sensor size issues and heating issues. I still think this could have been resolved without resorting to binning, but that's beside the issue.]
> 
> Also note averaging will soften the image.



Either averaging or summation can be used, doesn't really matter, just as long as you can get a single readout from the 4 pixels. This needs to happen before the data gets read off the sensor otherwise you won't get a speed increase. All of this of course will decrease the resolution of the image (sacrificing resolution for speed and/or better light sensitivity is the whole point)


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## dg28 (Oct 14, 2011)

Remember when they brought the EOS1V film camera out and it was the fifth Canon "1 series" camera (F1, F1n, EOS1, EOS1n then EOS1V) - well this could be the tenth "1 series" camera (EOS1D, EOS1D MkII, EOS1D MkIII and EOS1D MkIV) so what are the chances of getting an EOS1X? It's about time they'd ripped the "D" from model names and the tenth camera would be as good a time as any...

Jussthinkin'...

Neil


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## heyitslam (Oct 14, 2011)

@ Gothmoth: Thanks can you let me know where is the right thread for this question?

@ Mt Spokane Photography:
Thanks for the info. You mentioned that an initial price point of $1800
"Get that 7D and enjoy it, nothing is coming soon that would be worth upgrading, considering the $1,800 initial price, and thats without a lens."

Is this the much waited for 5dmk2 replacement?
I was also looking at the 5dmkii number of shops in Canada has it for $2000. 
I am not sure if I would want a FF or a 1.6x crop sensor in the 7d.
Reason I was leaning toward the 7d was the faster fps rate.

Any suggestion?

Thanks


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## Joseph (Oct 15, 2011)

dr croubie said:


> Quick wikipedia-ing: the EOS 1V did 10fps on a moving mirror, the EOS1nRS did 12fps on a pellicle mirror. And the current 1Dmk4 does 10fps on a moving mirror. (and the best I can find out about the F1 is 9fps, although there probably was a motor drive for 14fps that i didn't find).
> Surely it's gotta be possible to go above thiese numbers, we've had 11 years of tech since the 1V, there's got to be a more efficient motor and materials capable of the G-forces involved by now. If the mirror can do it, the rest is just software.
> 
> I definitely like the idea of the "2 frames per mirror drop" (or 3).
> ...



I don't know if someone already mentioned this , since I am commenting on this as I read it. 

But the Frames Per Second issue is not the motor in the cameras , it's the speed in which the sensor can dispurse its electrical charge , and prepare for the next shot - the sensor must drain , and refill with each image shot , and the speed of cicuitry is slowed the larger the sensor is , and the more power the CPU uses - so although they are comming up with new faster ways to charge and discharge the sensor , the MP always going up slowly balances it out from giving huge FPS increases. All we can hope for is a new rapid current charge and discharge that does not affect battery , or more seriously , sensor life span.


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## niccyboy (Oct 15, 2011)

Joseph said:


> dr croubie said:
> 
> 
> > Quick wikipedia-ing: the EOS 1V did 10fps on a moving mirror, the EOS1nRS did 12fps on a pellicle mirror. And the current 1Dmk4 does 10fps on a moving mirror. (and the best I can find out about the F1 is 9fps, although there probably was a motor drive for 14fps that i didn't find).
> ...



I did not know that. Very interesting! 

I'm curious.. So the expansion pack on the faster film cameras merely provided more power?


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## PeterJ (Oct 15, 2011)

Joseph said:


> But the Frames Per Second issue is not the motor in the cameras , it's the speed in which the sensor can dispurse its electrical charge , and prepare for the next shot - the sensor must drain , and refill with each image shot , and the speed of cicuitry is slowed the larger the sensor is , and the more power the CPU uses - so although they are comming up with new faster ways to charge and discharge the sensor , the MP always going up slowly balances it out from giving huge FPS increases. All we can hope for is a new rapid current charge and discharge that does not affect battery , or more seriously , sensor life span.


This probably needs a "citation needed" tag . Unless I'm mistaken I thought CMOS sensors were effectively a photodiode with an active amplifier, so the "refill" is caused the photoelectric effect and the discharge would consist of removing the small charge held by the inherent capacitance of the photodiode through a transistor. You need a certain number of photons of light to hit the sensor but if you're taking a 1/100s shot there's no reason each inidividual cell can't approach that in terms of fps.

General point is valid though, but it's not so much how quickly you can discharge the sensor it's how long it takes to do something useful with the output of each cell, namely taking an analog to digital conversion. That's largely a function of cost / size / power and then it has to be processed by a CPU and stored to memory fast enough which again is a function of cost / size / power.


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## Joseph (Oct 15, 2011)

niccyboy said:


> Joseph said:
> 
> 
> > dr croubie said:
> ...



I can't be certain with the film camera's - I am all digital myself - in search of the best digital technologies , and theories I can find within each of the manufacturers.

It sounds likely though - although not for the same reason , since film cameras have no sensor - 

But I can see the film cameras needing more power to flip up the mirror , advance the film , and actuate the shutter. 

In SLR's I'm sure they had to make the mirror retract mechanism stronger , needing a more powerful motor to flip it up each time , and the same with the shutter curtain - it would require a quicker , more accurate actuation as well. Then the film has to advance quick enough to keep up with everything else , while still allowing enough exposure time per frame. Man , people had to be all over high ASA (800+) films back then to keep the camera exposure on par with the shutter speeds lol , I mean if they wanted to keep increasing FPS at that point.


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## Joseph (Oct 15, 2011)

PeterJ said:


> Joseph said:
> 
> 
> > But the Frames Per Second issue is not the motor in the cameras , it's the speed in which the sensor can dispurse its electrical charge , and prepare for the next shot - the sensor must drain , and refill with each image shot , and the speed of cicuitry is slowed the larger the sensor is , and the more power the CPU uses - so although they are comming up with new faster ways to charge and discharge the sensor , the MP always going up slowly balances it out from giving huge FPS increases. All we can hope for is a new rapid current charge and discharge that does not affect battery , or more seriously , sensor life span.
> ...



I can understand that , but thats why they have the BUFFER - to store the first set of fast paced shots , I dont know if the buffers only 256mb or what , but it can be easily increased to 1GB , and can store the RAW unprocessed data while the CPU catches up - I mean the 1D series have dual processors , and memory (BUFFER) speeds are at rediculous high levels now , exceeding over 2000mhz and processing data anywhere from 20 to 160 gigabytes a second + , NOT saying this is in our cameras , but it could be if they wanted too , especially if this made the FPS count higher , I don't think they are scared to charge more for superior stats - it has to be more than just that ya know , because theres not much stopping them from increasing CPU speeds , lowering memory latencies , and adding more memory in general - it seems these are too simple of problems to be the reason FPS arent at 20fps + right now. SO WHAT IS IT CANON


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Oct 15, 2011)

Mencho(22) said:


> Something is really going on...
> 
> Today i received an email from CPS Mexico with the subject "Wait for the best for profesional photographers" and this image:



Nice find, thanks for sharing. For numerology/symbology nuts, the above logo would be implying, 3 or 8 ( EOS-3/8?) or 3-layer Foveon-type full-color RGB sensel array sensor (?).  - edited to satisfy the anal-retentive types...


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## Gothmoth (Oct 15, 2011)

Joseph said:


> dr croubie said:
> 
> 
> > i donÂ´t think thatÂ´s a problem. your on the wrong way here.
> ...


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 15, 2011)

Joseph said:


> niccyboy said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious.. So the expansion pack on the faster film cameras merely provided more power?
> ...



I don't see a reason for more power to more the mirror or shutter just _because_ the medium is film vs. digital 9assuming we're talking about a FF digital sensor). Current cameras may need less power because advances in materials used to construct the mirror and shutter have reduced the weight of those components. I suspect the main effect of the 'power booster' grips was to drive the film advance motors faster. But then, Nikon dSLRs get higher frame rates with the battery grip - however, that may not be for technical reasons, but rather for marketing reasons (i.e. to boost sales of the grips).


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## bycostello (Oct 15, 2011)

very excited...


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## Gothmoth (Oct 15, 2011)

can we stop that off topic discussion here? thanks!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 15, 2011)

Moved to a new topic.


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## bornshooter (Oct 15, 2011)

Gothmoth said:


> can we stop that off topic discussion here? thanks!


+ 1


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## Daveco (Oct 15, 2011)

As I recall, the 1nRS had 10 fps speed, and AIservo was not capable at high speed. I have to manual somewhere, and still own the camera, but I haven't used it in a lot of years.


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## trailgoer (Oct 16, 2011)

Anyone know what time the announcement is scheduled?

I have not seen that but I may have missed it.


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## mediobarco (Oct 16, 2011)

18 mpx, 3 Digit V, 1 of them only for AF. Max fps (12/14) only with the new serie II lenses.


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## djw (Oct 16, 2011)

Amazing--less than 36 hours until the 18th and no further rumour leaks. Either Canon runs a water tight ship or ...

If there is something coming, I would have thought Canon marketing would try to spice things up a bit--c'mon, Canon, that's what makes rumour following a sport!


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## Picsfor (Oct 16, 2011)

Joseph said:


> niccyboy said:
> 
> 
> > Joseph said:
> ...



To clarify, the power grip that came with my A1 allowed to wind wind the film on at a rate of 5 frames a second. There was no buffer on film it just had to be set right.

No, asa800 film wasn't needed to use it at that rate either. It was like any other situation, sunny day and you could get away with asa100. Grey miserable day and use asa800...

The problem with 5fps on film was, only 7 seconds of shooting with a 36exp film!

It wasn't the ability to do 10fps, it was the why? 3.5 seconds worth of exposures, all requiring to be developed. You would have needed multiples of bodies with lenses etc to keep up with that rate, and some one to keep changing the film.

64gb cf card will hold nearly 2000 shots from a 5D2 at full RAW mode producing images in the 20-30mb size. No change of film, body or lens required. And if the light changes, just alter the iso!

Yep, digital is much easier than film. And that's not a pop, technology has made it easier...


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## dr croubie (Oct 17, 2011)

Picsfor said:


> The problem with 5fps on film was, only 7 seconds of shooting with a 36exp film!



That's why they invented these.

But yeah, to summarise:
Film problems with fast shooting: move the mirror fast enough, advance the film fast enough.
Digital problems with fast shooting: move the mirror fast enough, read the sensor fast enough, clear the sensor to black fast enough.
And there's also AF fast enough, and adjust the exposure fast enough, for both systems.

The 1D-non-s line has a mirror that can move at 10fps, but it's a smaller mirror. It can also read and clear/reset 16MP at 10fps, with 2-year old tech.
The EOS 1V did 10 fps with a FF mirror over 10 years ago, so we know FF mirrors can at least be made that fast.

Just a comparison of bandwidths for a minute:
my 7D can do 18MP at 8fps, with a random sample of 331 .CR2 files (min 15.8, max 31.0MB) i've got handy, they average at 24MB each, so that's 192MB/s. 15-shot (rated) buffer, means 360MB (probably smaller, 256MB? because it clears space as it writes to the card). 7D announced 1st sept 2009.
I don't have a 1D4, but we'll pretend .CR2 files average out 16/18*24=21.3MB each. At 10fps, that's 213 MB/s. With a (rated) buffer of 28 raw frames, that's 598MB, so probably a 512MB buffer. 1D4 announced only a month and a half later, 20th oct 2009.

Now, in a completely unscientific comparison, courtesy of Tom's Hardware, about the time the 7D & 1D4 were announced, desktop computer RAM was just less than $100 for 6GB of ddr3-1333. 2 years later, now we get  8GB of ddr3-1866 for $75. Size up 30%, speed up 50%, cost down 25%.
So that's computer ram, of course, but gives a nice indication of trends.
Basically, what i'm saying is, that it wouldn't be much of a reach to put a 1GB (or double the 1Dmk4) buffer in tomorrow's camera, without affecting the price or size too much.

What if it's a Foveon-type, sigma-type, triple-well-non-bayer (what are we allowed to call them?) sensor, at 18MP? In short, keeping the rest the same (bits-per-pixel), it's going to triple the size of the RAW file, 60-80MB won't be unrealistic.
Triple my 7D's .CR2 average-size gives 72MB. At 12fps that gives 865MB/s. For a 12fps burst with a 1GB buffer, just over 15 shots will fill the buffer. Over-rate it for extra space gathered by emptying the buffer to the card, maybe we could get a 17-19 shot burst before that damn 'busy' light flashes.
That's barely 1.5 seconds of action. Is that acceptable? my 7D gives 2 seconds of action, the 1D4 gives nearly 3 seconds in a burst. For the theoretically-much-better colour detail from a non-bayer, there will be trade-offs, where your preference lies depends on your opportunity-costs (and I won't bore you with that, unfortunately i've got both an electrical engineering and an economics degree).


As for the issue of draining the charge and resetting to black that Joseph picked up on, I never though of it and it makes sense. Not only do you have to read the charge-level, throw it through your ADC and write to the buffer, then you have to clamp the sensor to ground to clear everything before the next frame, or you get ghosting (or just noise in general).

So, another unscientific comparison using consumer CPUs. Sept 2009 saw the release of the Core i5/7 Lynnfield on 45nm. Today we get the 32nm Sandy Bridge. Without comparing those two too much, in short, transistor sizes are going down, gate capacitance gets less so switching gets faster, power consumption goes down, etc. I've no idea what sized process Canon uses for their sensors, but it's got to be shrinking fairly quickly. Make a 5Dmk1-specced sensor using today's tech, and the noise will be noticeably lower just from the tech improvements, transistors and wiring between the photosites will be smaller, meaning relatively-larger photosites, add in gapless microlenses and any other tech canon's though of in the last 2 years that they haven't released yet, and you see where i'm going.


As for the other things, like AF. I'm not sure where I posted it previously, but you may all be interested in what the Canon Camera Museum has to say:
_Even as innovations like 45-point Area AF and cross-type AF points have led to more compositional freedom and broadened the possibilities of photography, we are still devoted to developing in the near future AF technology that will focus where you want it just by thought alone without any physical operations. This â€œdream AFâ€ will astound you all._
"Dream AF", by "thought alone". OK, i'm not imagining an ESP-Grip add on or anything. It could be the return of Eye-Control. It could also be marketing speak for some abilities i pondered earlier, like multiple-exposure-without-mirror-dropping predictive AF, or read-the-image-sensor-as-it-takes-the-frame and cross-check with the AF-sensor, and combine the two results for more accurate AF. Or it could be a pellicle mirror with full-time stills- and video-AF.

As for the other ones, move the mirror fast enough and exposure-adjustment, they're the easier of problems to overcome. Materials-engineering has advanced a lot in the 12 years since the EOS-1V, just on the mirror-alone i wouldn't doubt 20fps is possible these days with a realistic-mirror-lifetime...


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## Zuuyi (Oct 17, 2011)

My view of interest by Camera Owners by Groups:

1D & 1Ds level - want to see the new cameras so they can buy
5D & 7D level - so they can guestimate what will come with the updates of their models. And hoping they will come out soon.
60D level - for the possible used 5D or new 7D2 at a price they can afford.
TXi level - just for S&Giggles; they might go up to a new XXD/7D or used 5D2. They are just waiting to see what trickles down in April.

I personally want a 6D to come out. I can afford a little more than a 7D but I want FF. Otherwise a 60D or T3i works for me. So my next camera will be a 60D2/70D or 6D. The 7D has absolutely zero value to me; I don't need FPS.


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## niccyboy (Oct 17, 2011)

What time will the announcement be? Does anyone know?


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## Stuart (Oct 17, 2011)

So is it going to be called the 2D, leaving the 3D name for november.

damm this wait is bad, and even after this wait we need to wait for releases, reviews and trickle down.

Come on canon.....


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## cpsico (Oct 18, 2011)

In a lot of post i see people asking for more pixels, really? Btw how many of you have ever even used a 1d body? Let me say there is nothing else like it, even the dreaded 1dmkIII is a fine piece of hardware. 18 Megapixals with 12 fps is going to be fantastic!!! A 5d makes a fine studio camera, but its not very tough, and lets face it the autofocus isn't well suited for anything moving, this is a going to be a great sports,wedding camera and hopefully one that will put down all the Nikon fan boys about the d3. 

I am keeping my fingers crossed for high IQ and Dynamic range, if i want to shoot landscapes I can always break out my 5d mkII. 

What i really want is a fantastic available light camera that can focus in dim conditions without a flash !!


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