# Canon EOS 6D Mark II Not Coming Until Spring? [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 31, 2016)

```
We’re told that the release of the Canon EOS 6D Mark II will not happen until the spring of 2017 at the earliest. We had previously been told to expect an announcement some time in Q1 of 2017.</p>
<p>The same source says the new camera will have some new technology in it, have a 25mp sensor, dual SD card slots, a slightly  smaller form factor and a reduction in weight.</p>
<p>This feels like it’s possible, as we haven’t heard anything we’d call definitive yet. We don’t expect an abundance of information to come about until the new year.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## unfocused (Oct 31, 2016)

Stop the presses, a new release will get some new technology! That's about as safe of a prediction as possible. 

On the other hand, it will be sufficient to generate 20+ pages of comments. 

Here is my equally safe prediction. Expectations will soar among some forum members, who will then be deeply disappointed that the new technology isn't exactly what they dream up and will then insist that Canon is ******* because the company didn't build a camera to their exact hopes and dreams.


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## ahsanford (Oct 31, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>We’re told that the release of the Canon EOS 6D Mark II will not happen until the spring of 2017 at the earliest. We had previously been told to expect an announcement some time in Q1 of 2017.</p>
> <p>The same source says the new camera will have some new technology in it, have a 25mp sensor, dual SD card slots, a slightly smaller form factor and a reduction in weight.</p>
> <p>This feels like it’s possible, as we haven’t heard anything we’d call definitive yet. We don’t expect an abundance of information to come about until the new year.</p>
> <p><em>More to come…</em></p>
> <span id="pty_trigger"></span>



Not surprising. Canon seems to favor a 3-6 month window in which the higher trimline product (in this case, the 5D4) completes its global rollout before the cheaper alternative is announced. Canon does not want a single person on the fence about a 5D4 for any reason getting a 6D2 instead.

So this makes perfect sense. Complete the 5D4 rollout, and then a tilty-flippy 6D2 swoops in to collect the rest of the FF buyers in this 4 year cycle.

...with a new non-L 50 prime to go with it, one might hope. :

- A


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## ahsanford (Oct 31, 2016)

unfocused said:


> Stop the presses, a new release will get some new technology! That's about as safe of a prediction as possible.
> 
> On the other hand, it will be sufficient to generate 20+ pages of comments.
> 
> Here is my equally safe prediction. Expectations will soar among some forum members, who will then be deeply disappointed that the new technology isn't exactly what they dream up and will then insist that Canon is ******* because the company didn't build a camera to their exact hopes and dreams.



I'm much more curious how they will nerf this rig to protect 5D4 and 5DS sales:

Stick with the 1/4000 max shutter speed?
No DPAF?
No (horrifically cropped) 4K?
Only a modest AF boost over the 6D1?
Only 5 fps?
Still only one card slot?
Stick with that 1/180 flash sync?

Time will tell.

- A


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## scrup (Oct 31, 2016)

Canon waiting for Sony to shows its hand on the A7III and then it will finalize specs.


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## crazyrunner33 (Oct 31, 2016)

scrup said:


> Canon waiting for Sony to shows its hand on the A7III and then it will finalize specs.



Canon knows better than to compete against Sony in specs, Sony is a technology company that isn't afraid to take a chance and put out a product that may still need some refinement. The A6300's fast 8 month lifecycle is a perfect example, the A6500 is basically a fixed A6300.


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## Mikehit (Oct 31, 2016)

crazyrunner33 said:


> scrup said:
> 
> 
> > Canon waiting for Sony to shows its hand on the A7III and then it will finalize specs.
> ...



Should they buy the 6500 or wait another 12 months for the 6700 which fixes the bad things in the 6500? 
And the doom-mongers say Canon don't know how to run a technology release program. Sony's approach would really hack me off.


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## nightscape123 (Oct 31, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> crazyrunner33 said:
> 
> 
> > scrup said:
> ...



How is that different than canon's approach of releasing a product then waiting 4 years to fix its problems? People with the 5DIII have to deal with terrible banding noise and lower dynamic range even though it was fixed in the 6D which came out only like a year later. Technology always improves and the next version always fixes things from the previous version. It just goes a lot faster if you are releasing products every 1 year instead of every 4. Both companies cameras are capable of taking great pictures.


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## davidcl0nel (Oct 31, 2016)

Late March is Spring and the same as Q1/2017 in marketing speech, so what is this article really about? 

Or when was the last time, any product should be available on Q1, and it was really available before march or even first week in January?


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## Don Haines (Oct 31, 2016)

scrup said:


> Canon waiting for Sony to shows its hand on the A7III and then it will finalize specs.



ummmmm....... you do realize that the 6DII project started before the 6D was released? And that the hardware design is "cast in stone" about a year (or more) before the product gets released?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 31, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> scrup said:
> 
> 
> > Canon waiting for Sony to shows its hand on the A7III and then it will finalize specs.
> ...



The or More part is most likely, but tweaks to the software will be going on right up to release date. The sensor is the big lead time item.

I am pretty certain that the camera is already in production, and final assembly will start in January for a April or May release. It takes at least 12 months of production before release. Some of the parts require long lead time tooling, and design drawings must be finished before parts can be tooled. Typical production rates might be 20,000 a month for something like this, and they want at least 100,000 units ready to ship, more likely 130,000-150,000.


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## rrcphoto (Oct 31, 2016)

scrup said:


> Canon waiting for Sony to shows its hand on the A7III and then it will finalize specs.



yes, because Canon has a time machine that can go back years to re-do specs and manufacturing and procurement.


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## bokehmon22 (Oct 31, 2016)

I'm fine with waiting for 6D II with dual card slot. It might be perfect for wedding photography. Hopefully it offer more enticing upgrade than 6D to 5D IV.

It just need -4EV, 19 xtype, better ISO and dynamic range than 5D IV.

Video features 4K are nice but not neccesary. Just give us better 1080p codec.


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## ahsanford (Oct 31, 2016)

nightscape123 said:


> How is that different than canon's approach of releasing a product then waiting 4 years to fix its problems? People with the 5DIII have to deal with terrible banding noise and lower dynamic range even though it was fixed in the 6D which came out only like a year later. Technology always improves and the next version always fixes things from the previous version. It just goes a lot faster if you are releasing products every 1 year instead of every 4. Both companies cameras are capable of taking great pictures.



What you call a 'problem', 90% of people simply describe as 'the sensor'. 

Canon puts out FF rigs in a roughly 4 year cycles. That lower trimline 6D may have outperformed the 5D3 in some way, but it's a different product for different customers. But in your chain of logic where the 6D 'solved' a 5D3 'problem', were you not similarly butt-hurt that the AF got immeasurably worse with the 6D?

And there's a big difference with the Sony gear -- it overpromises and underdelivers:


Love 4K? We technically do that but it might overheat.
Love a crazy high burst rate? Our has that, but only if your AF is fixed after the first exposure.
Love pro lenses? We have those now, but we hope you like focus by wire $2,000+ lenses.
Love amazing sensors? We have those, but you have to use our knuckleheaded controls and menus.

Canon, in contrast, tells you what you'll get and then gives it to you. No, their sensors aren't best in class, but virtually everything else (service, handling, reliability, AF, lenses, flashes, etc.) is. That's good enough for me.

- A


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## MintChocs (Oct 31, 2016)

For canon users in the uk March is a bad time. It's supposedly when Brexit will formally be announced which is likely to cause a further fall in the pound. Chances are the 6Dmkii will launch at a very high price. :-\


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## transpo1 (Oct 31, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <p>We’re told that the release of the Canon EOS 6D Mark II will not happen until the spring of 2017 at the earliest. We had previously been told to expect an announcement some time in Q1 of 2017.</p>
> ...



If they want to collect the rest of the FF buyers, they should give them useable 4K in FF or 1.3 crop...in addition to a tilty-flippy


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 31, 2016)

The 6D MK1 came six months after the 5D MKIII. If Canon are working to a similar time scale then the 6D MKII would arrive in March 2017. That makes sense in terms of it coming ahead of spring and the 2017 summer holiday season. 
Who knows what Canon have planned but it would be logical to create a full-frame version of the 80D specification which would pitch the camera squarely at the Nikon 750D section of the market and thus a price hike. Whether then Canon create an entry level full-frame rebel type camera is anyone's guess but I think there is room for both without damaging 5D MKIV sales.


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## Mikehit (Oct 31, 2016)

So if they create '80D with full frame' what do you see as the differentiator between that and the 5DIV?


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## dak723 (Nov 1, 2016)

Hope the info so far is true. Would not be interested if they raise the MPs above 25 or so. Hoping for smaller and lighter. That is all I would need.


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## 9VIII (Nov 1, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> So if they create '80D with full frame' what do you see as the differentiator between that and the 5DIV?



AF sensor, buffer depth, size, materials, resolution, and MSRP on the 6D2 will probably be around $2500, so it'll be more of a "5D lite" than the current model that's more budget oriented.
They're going to have to release a Full Frame Rebel eventually, and a high price on the 6D2 would be a good indicator of that.


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## Mikehit (Nov 1, 2016)

9VIII said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > So if they create '80D with full frame' what do you see as the differentiator between that and the 5DIV?
> ...



The 80D AF is almost on a par with the 7D2 and not much behind the 5D3/5D4, resolution will be 24MP vs 30MP (little difference really) with arguably a better sensor that will offset any difference that is there, buffer depth is rather 'meh' for most photographers. And at $1,000 less than the 5DIV what you are almost creating is one camera at 2 price points. I would find that strategy hard to understand especially if, as you suggest they also create a Rebel with FF sensor (which is really where the 6D came in). It really doesn't make much sense to me.


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## 9VIII (Nov 1, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



50% less AF points is enough for marketing.
6MP less is enough for marketing.
As long as Canon can make a similar amount of money off of either camera then the details are all semantics.


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## Maiaibing (Nov 1, 2016)

9VIII said:


> 50% less AF points is enough for marketing.
> 6MP less is enough for marketing.
> As long as Canon can make a similar amount of money off of either camera then the details are all semantics.



Just give me another sensor upgrade from the 5DIV and I'll even take it with the "old" package. 4.5 fps and great center AF point goes very far. Have no issue with the 6D AF myself - not the best but easily good enough for most everything.


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## Orangutan (Nov 1, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



If they use the 70D AF it'll be good enough for me, depending on the price. It's hard to know how they're positioning the 6D-series: is it the gateway to FF, and the enticement to buy more glass, or is it the budget backup for your higher-priced body? Maybe some of both.


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## Luds34 (Nov 1, 2016)

dak723 said:


> Hope the info so far is true. Would not be interested if they raise the MPs above 25 or so. Hoping for smaller and lighter. That is all I would need.



I'm with you on the megapixels. I've been feeling ~24 is a nice sweet spot and hope they stay in that range. The current 6D isn't really all that heavy or terribly large and balances pretty well with fast glass. If it shrinks too much I wonder if that will still be the case...?

The dual card slots I find interesting. Starting to push this camera towards pros???


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## Aaron D (Nov 1, 2016)

OK I for one would really like this 6D as described - especially if it has the newer wide-dynamic range sensor technology. I'll be getting the IV for my tripod-mounted work and keep the "old" III as a carry-around camera - L-bracket will be retired. But this thing would be better in every respect than the III for a second unit - smaller, lighter, DR and it would have two cards! What's not to love? And I personally don't need speed or video, so those things are wasted on me...

A


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## Chaitanya (Nov 1, 2016)

Dual SD card slots will be certainly useful. Considering that 80D was first canon camera to implement full uhs-i slot, I dont expect dumbass Canon to implement uhs-ii spec sd slot for another 5-6 years untill when the Sd would be obsolete and new competing card format will be made available and in use in competition.


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## canonographer (Nov 1, 2016)

I'd like to see some streamlined styling changes without sacrificing ergonomics. What would make me buy it though is info through the viewfinder. Peaking, Zebras, etc.

I don't get why Canon refuses to implement what we can get from Magic Lantern, at least some of the features.


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## Ozarker (Nov 1, 2016)

crazyrunner33 said:


> scrup said:
> 
> 
> > Canon waiting for Sony to shows its hand on the A7III and then it will finalize specs.
> ...



Yes. Just gotta love a company with fast life cycles for its products just to fix what it shouldn't have released with the things that needed fixing in the first place. A6300 owners must have been thrilled.

Sony is the bomb!  Great lenses too. Very technologically advanced. :

Metabones loves Sony too.


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## whothafunk (Nov 1, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> The 80D AF is almost on a par with the 7D2


sure, if your only manner of comparing AF is by counting the AF points. other than that, it's not even close.


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## mb66energy (Nov 1, 2016)

If the 6D has a 25 MPix DPAF sensor, a tiltable screen + higher DR/less noise + non-crippled HD video + very short shutter lag ... at 2k EUR/$ possibly a good alternative to the 5D iv (4k EUR in germany) for "slow photogs" like me!
I do not need high framerates but very good IQ at moderate pixel counts (well complementing my available lenses) and a good responsiveness would help to hit the right moment.


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## Sabaki (Nov 1, 2016)

6D mark ii....

Give me more AF points. Sucks shooting people with only 11 AF points

Increase the flash sync speed to 1/200th

Similar button layout to the 7D2

New style viewfinder

Better, more fluent bulb mode

Then I'll consider getting one


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## Josh Denver (Nov 1, 2016)

if it's named 6dii canon will be obligated to implement the top requested features the current 6d lacks. If I know correctly it's AF system and single card slot and speed. These three will be addressed without a question. The question is how many more requests will they fullfil that are below these three (in obviousness/request numbers). I am sure requests for an articulating LCD were submitted since shooters saw it on 60Ds/70Ds and thought it would be logical to have in the non-tank FF Canon. If they do these, along with all the little new Canon refinements, (anti flicker, viewfinder, af button, touchscreen, new wifi/gps, new menus, new metering, etc) they have a very solid 6D update to market. 

I believe implementing 4K was a big discussion at Canon's and I have no idea how that ended, but if it had 4K it would be less of a crop than the 5DIV and has an articulating touch screen with DPAF thus can be oriented to play as the video model in Canon line up. 

The current 4K Canon has (and the only type) is huge-but-highIQ Mjpeg and it requires FAST CF cards or CFast 2.0. Would they give the 6D a CF slot for video? Or an abnormaly (for Canon) fast SD slot? It gets a bit complicated here. So sticking with 90mbps 1080p seems much easier!


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## benkam (Nov 1, 2016)

A fully articulating 3” 1.04M-dot touchscreen would be a visible and major full-frame product differentiator, and entirely doable as this already exists on the 80D and newer Rebels (the 5D IV could still claim to its fixed LCD being slightly bigger at 3.2" and higher res at 1.62-M-dot). That with dual pixel AF, nice. Expect 4K at best at the 5D IV’s level -- 30p and 1.7X crop -- but I also see Canon dropping the ability to grab 8MP stills in 4K via MJPEG and instead go with a codec that gives up that “feature” and yields smaller files.

Canon can also make a huge leap from the 6D’s 11-point, single-cross-type AF while still being scaled down from the 5D IV’s 61-point, 41-cross-type. Could be reasonable to expect a FF implementation of the 80D’s AF system but with fewer cross-types, or 45-point AF, with 25 (instead of all) being cross-types -- that is, all 15 points in the more widely dispersed center grid plus each of the middle 5-point columns of the two tighter 15-point AF areas that flank the center grid.

A 25 MP version of the 5D IV sensor, 6 fps (a de-rated version of the 5D IV’s new drive or just plug in the old 5D III drive), dual SD slots, 100% coverage OVF, a headphone jack, and all in a “smaller and lighter”, probably 80D-sized package.

All those things are practicable and would make the 6D Mark II a compelling evolutionary upgrade in its projected Spring release.


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## Random Orbits (Nov 1, 2016)

Sabaki said:


> 6D mark ii....
> 
> Give me more AF points. Sucks shooting people with only 11 AF points
> 
> ...



In other words, a 5DIV


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## Takingshots (Nov 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <p>We’re told that the release of the Canon EOS 6D Mark II will not happen until the spring of 2017 at the earliest. We had previously been told to expect an announcement some time in Q1 of 2017.</p>
> ...



That could be true. Also buyers who wait to see what is offered on the new 6D Mark ii prior to making their decision to move forward or to move away from Canon has the options to buy used/demo Sony A7Rii/A7Rs at lower prices as Sony rolled out their newer version AR7 series. Canon got to step up with their offerings to combat to be competitive.


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## jeffa4444 (Nov 1, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> So if they create '80D with full frame' what do you see as the differentiator between that and the 5DIV?


Just a few:- 
higher ISO
4K video (1080P)
61AF points (45)
Extract 8MP pictures from 4K video)
Larger LCD display
Higher display resolution
Dedicated metering processor
150,000 RGB+IR metering system (7560 RGB+IR) 
Dual card slots
21 f8 AF points
Better weather sealing
etc. 

Canon would likely limit the FPS to below 7 and the shutter would have a lower shutter life (100K vs 150K)

Apart from the sensor, GPS and Wi-Fi the current 6D is similar to the 5D MKII the world has moved on considerably since then. The price gap between the 6D & 5D MKIV is a gulf even if the 5d MKIV falls to the 5DS/r pricing so the 6D MKII will certainly increase in price that in turn would leave another gap between the 6D MKII and the 80D so ideal to place a full frame rebel with a spec. similar to the 750/760D.


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## Billybob (Nov 1, 2016)

benkam said:


> A fully articulating 3” 1.04M-dot touchscreen would be a visible and major full-frame product differentiator, and entirely doable as this already exists on the 80D and newer Rebels (the 5D IV could still claim to its fixed LCD being slightly bigger at 3.2" and higher res at 1.62-M-dot). That with dual pixel AF, nice. Expect 4K at best at the 5D IV’s level -- 30p and 1.7X crop -- but I also see Canon dropping the ability to grab 8MP stills in 4K via MJPEG and instead go with a codec that gives up that “feature” and yields smaller files.
> 
> Canon can also make a huge leap from the 6D’s 11-point, single-cross-type AF while still being scaled down from the 5D IV’s 61-point, 41-cross-type. Could be reasonable to expect a FF implementation of the 80D’s AF system but with fewer cross-types, or 45-point AF, with 25 (instead of all) being cross-types -- that is, all 15 points in the more widely dispersed center grid plus each of the middle 5-point columns of the two tighter 15-point AF areas that flank the center grid.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure why everyone is predicting dual card slots in an 80D form factor especially when the 80D only has one slot. Keeping the 6D at one card slot is a very simple why to differentiate a consumer from pro model. Also, keep the continuous rate at no more than 5fps. Psychologically--yes, I'm speaking for self and personal experience--5fps feels slow, 6fps does not. Regardless, the buffer will be absurdly small allowing no more than 3 seconds of RAW shots at 5fps, or 2secs or less at a higher continuous rate. I agree with all your other points. Improved AF is a given, but the spread of AF points is likely to remain just as compact.

1/4000s max shutter speed is a given. I think the D750 also has this limit and it is an easy feature for the marketeers to use to distinguish consumer from pro-grade cameras. Tilty, and hopefully flippy, touchscreen is a given as well. Again, this is a consumer-grade feature (although Nikon has added tilty-touchy to it's crop-sensor and pro-level D500) that will distinguish it from the 5D line. The 6D will continue without the joystick--a feature that I sorely miss on my 80D--but will likely have some form of 4K video. I suspect that it will be similar to the 5D's version since the consensus seems to be that the 5D doesn't implement 4K all that well. I doubt that the 6D will be (much) better but hardly worst. Oh, and the 6D will give up maximum possible sharpness by including an aggressive AA filter. Canon is just too conservative to risk the bane of moire haters to remove the filter.

Given the 6 month lag, Canon won't mind producing a very usable, compromised, but significantly upgraded camera as described above and in the previous post. Pro users who have worn out their previous cameras won't wait that long, and action shooters who need the higher continuous rate, buffer, and better AF will still have to purchase the 5DMIV.

For me having the improved DR of the 5D is critical. I sold my 5DMIII last year in anticipation of the IV. However, the IV is more camera than I need, especially at that price level. I thought about getting the current 6D but if the II doesn't improve the DR, I'll continue with my 80D, L lenses, and Nikon kit.


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## jeffa4444 (Nov 1, 2016)

If I was Canon this is where I would have the 6D:- 

24MP (not dual pixel)
7260 RGB-IR metering
45AF points (5 to f8)
APS-C crop mode
5fps 
1080P video over USB3.0
100% coverage viewfinder
3" tilting (up or down) LCD screen 
GPS
Wi-Fi
NFC
2xSD card slots
Increase highest shutter speed to 1/8000
Increase flash sync 
slightly smaller body with same control layout of 6D
Better weather sealing


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## Luds34 (Nov 1, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> If I was Canon this is where I would have the 6D:-
> 
> 24MP (not dual pixel)
> 7260 RGB-IR metering
> ...



Good thing you're not Canon.  

DPAF is a big feature that differentiates Canon among it's competitors. Being it's been put into any decent Camera Canon has released recently and I'd be shocked if it's left out of the 6D2.


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## hne (Nov 1, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> If I was Canon this is where I would have the 6D:-
> 
> 24MP (not dual pixel)
> 7260 RGB-IR metering
> ...



Naaaah. If I was Canon, I'd take the 80D, scale the sensor, mirror, focus screen and prism to full frame size, double the price and call it a 6DmkII.


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## benkam (Nov 1, 2016)

Billybob said:


> I'm not sure why everyone is predicting dual card slots in an 80D form factor especially when the 80D only has one slot. Keeping the 6D at one card slot is a very simple why to differentiate a consumer from pro model.



Adding a second SD slot shouldn't be that much of a challenge. Nikon's already done it even with their own FF entry-level D610. In terms of storage, that would just be Canon closing the gap with Nikon and leaving behind the basic Sony (now the A7-series I don't know how they can fit much else without first trying to put a bigger battery in there, if at all possible).

There are also other ways of differentiating a consumer and pro model, maybe with something more visible such as if/when Canon puts in a fully articulating screen in the 6D II instead of a fixed screen, like how you can easily distinguish between the 80D and 7D II.


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

I have been a broken record on how Canon dropped the ball with only a +1 fps boost to the 5D4 over the 5D3.

Now here comes the 6D2. One could now see the fps of FF rigs looking like:

5DS/R = 5 fps
6D2 = 5.5 to 6 fps
5D4 = 7 fps
1DX2 = four gajillion fps

So Canon will somewhat _have_ to do the 6D2 and 5D4 differentiation with sensor resolution, AF points, and max shutter speed. It would have been much easier to differentiate those two rigs if that 7 fps above was more like 9 fps.

- A


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## benkam (Nov 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> I have been a broken record on how Canon dropped the ball with only a +1 fps boost to the 5D4 over the 5D3.
> 
> Now here comes the 6D2. One could now see the fps of FF rigs looking like:
> 
> ...



Fair point but marketing-wise, if Canon were able to push the 5D4 to 9 fps, they might as well have broken the psychological double-digit barrier and gone 10 fps. Now that would've turned a lot more heads, although too close for comfort to the 14 fps 1DX2.

Agreed though that Canon could've bumped the 5D4's burst a bit more, and I'd say to 8 fps. That would've let them say, hey look guys, 33% increase! That would also equal the burst rate of the original 7D, known as a legit action/sports shooter, and made the 5D4 look even more flexible and yet for Canon, for model differentiation, still be a comfortable way behind the 1DX2.

In which case then we can be more optimistic that the 6D2 would indeed go up to 6 fps, as they can say, hey look, 33% increase too from 4.5, with that alternate 5D4 still a couple of fps ahead. Now what might happen instead is that the 5D4's 7 fps might give Canon reason to cap the 6D2 at 5 fps to have that speed gap, similar to that between the Rebel and the 80D.

Also, the 5DS/R "Mark II", if they keep MP not much higher and with the faster dual Digic 6+, they might be able to bump up to 6 fps and thus equal to the 5D3's speed (for those looking for a same speed, high-res 5D3 replacement), with the 5D4 still noticeably faster. Instead, the 5DS/R2 now could just stay at 5 fps.


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

As it stands, it may look like this:

6D2: 24 MP x 6 fps + 1/4000 shutter + less than 61 AF points + tilty-flippy

5D4: 30 MP x 7 fps + 1/8000 shutter + 61 AF points + 4K + many f/8 AF points + more silent shutter than 1DX2

1DX2: 20 MP x 14 fps + 1/8000 shutter + 61 AF points + 4K + many f/8 AF points + crazy shutter durability + grip + advanced metering + lots of 1D series goodies

Blue = nerfed deliberately for differentiation
Red = good 5D4 feature that won't be trickled-down to 6D2
Green = unique upside to that price point

I'm less sure about the 1/4000 vs. 1/8000. Two different crop rigs at lower price points than the 6D2 have 1/8000 shutters today.

- A


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## benkam (Nov 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> As it stands, it may look like this:
> 
> 6D2: 24 MP x 6 fps + 1/4000 shutter + less than 61 AF points + tilty-flippy
> 
> ...



With 4K, initially I thought that Canon would limit the 6D2 to 1080p but more recently I've been thinking that they won't leave 4K out of the 6D2. What a waste of possibly a "tilty-flippy" screen with expected dual pixel AF when you limit yourself to 1080p as your competitors move on to 4K from 2017 onwards. It would also give Canon a full-frame product at its price point in the 4K market currently owned by M4/3 and APS-C cameras.

I see 4K differentation still possible between the 5D4 and 6D2 with the codec. 5D4 and 1DX2 have already gone with MJPEG's massive files but they do get 8MP 4K frame grabs -- marketed as 4K for stills pros -- while the 6D2 could go with a different codec such as H.264 or another -- no 8MP grabs but smaller, more compressed video files. It would still be 30p max and 1.7X crop as with the 5D4.


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## Mikehit (Nov 1, 2016)

> What a waste of possibly a "tilty-flippy" screen



Why is 1080p a waste of a tilty-flippy screen? Most photographers don't shoot video and wold use it to get different angles.



> no 8MP grabs but smaller,


Having quality screen grabs is much more appealing in a stills-oriented camera than having better video codecs.

The 6D will NOT be a video -oriented machine. It will be for stills photographers to take video if they want to do so on occasion.


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## Refurb7 (Nov 1, 2016)

Dual card slots and a smaller, lighter body sounds perfect. If they can improve the AF and not raise the price, I'll be thrilled. Those are all of the improvements I want in a 6D2. No other technology is needed for me.


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## benkam (Nov 1, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> Why is 1080p a waste of a tilty-flippy screen? Most photographers don't shoot video and wold use it to get different angles.


4K's getting on everywhere from phones to cameras to dedicated video cameras, whether or not people actually use them now. I expect Canon to do 4K on most its products from 2017 onwards, including from the 6D2 price point and also the future 90D, 7D3, etc. My point was why would Canon waste the advantage of having a tilty-flippy screen if it sticks to old HD. 

If it was only photos, then a "tilty" screen would do but "tilty-flippy" I think would be a desired feature to shoot stills and also to monitor video, shoot vlogs, do selfies and holiday twofies for many consumers targeted in the 6D2's price point.



Mikehit said:


> Having quality screen grabs is much more appealing in a stills-oriented camera than having better video codecs.



Sure, that's one way of looking at it and what the 5D4 and 1DX2 currently offer with MJPEG 4K grabs at the cost of massive files but like I said, I'd speculate the 6D2 will be Canon's way of appealing to that section of the market who would like to take photos but also deal with more manageable video files and not that interested in doing 4K stills grabs.



Mikehit said:


> The 6D will NOT be a video -oriented machine. It will be for stills photographers to take video if they want to do so on occasion.



Canon could actually have a nice full-frame alternative for the GH4 market here if the 6D2 comes with a tilty-flippy screen and a 4K codec for more manageable video files.


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## Refurb7 (Nov 1, 2016)

nightscape123 said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > crazyrunner33 said:
> ...



I've been using the 5DIII for years and it has been banging out great photo after great photo. I never see this alleged "terrible banding noise". The dynamic range is perfect for at least 99% of the photos I make at weddings. The 5DIII is my do-everything-camera because it does everything well. I use a 6D too and have never noticed that it "fixed" anything about the 5DIII.


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## ExodistPhotography (Nov 1, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>We’re told that the release of the Canon EOS 6D Mark II will not happen until the spring of 2017 at the earliest. We had previously been told to expect an announcement some time in Q1 of 2017............



I still firmly believe it will have the exact same specs as the 80D, but full frame, alloy body and if we are really lucky a tiltty flippy screen. If it does turn out to be 25MP, then thats just marketing to make it really appear more then the 80D to newbs from a numbers standpoint. If it does have dual card slots I would be shocked, but pleased at the same time. Am hoping for a slightly smaller/lighter body that everyone keeps mentioning. Likely closer to that of the 80D.


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## Famateur (Nov 1, 2016)

As I read these discussions that center around product differentiation, I see a lot of logical hypotheses for how one might space out specs between models. They make sense...on paper...when comparing one feature set to the next.

One thing that doesn't seem to enter the conversation very often is that for many features, relative differentiation can be irrelevant if/when specs meet a certain functional capability. In other words, there comes a point when the capability of a camera meets enough needs in the overall market that it doesn't make much difference what the higher-level cameras can do. This, I would suspect, is a significant factor in the product line-up and differentiation discussions at Canon.

For pros/enthusiasts that want to squeeze out the very best/fastest from a camera, it might not be as relevant, but the more technology advances, the more relevant it will be. For the rest, that point of functional sufficiency for needs will be met much earlier.

It's one thing to risk a lower-tier model cannibalizing sales of a higher-tier model because the specs were "too close" relative to one another. It's another matter entirely when the lower-tier model cannibalizes sales of the higher-tier model because the specs meet the practical needs of most shooters across the target markets for the two tiers.

For these reasons, I suspect some features, like resolution, frame rate and AF system will plateau in order to maintain differentiation-by-user-need rather than just differentiation-by-relative-difference-to-another-model.

Does that makes sense?


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## rrcphoto (Nov 1, 2016)

benkam said:


> Canon could actually have a nice full-frame alternative for the GH4 market here if the 6D2 comes with a tilty-flippy screen and a 4K codec for more manageable video files.



why do people keep mentioning this as if it's something canon can do and just decided not to?

if they were going to do codec based 4K they would have already. they can't. it's simply not happening.


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

Famateur said:


> For these reasons, I suspect some features, like resolution, frame rate and AF system will plateau in order to maintain differentiation-by-user-need rather than just differentiation-by-relative-difference-to-another-model.



Canon is not a good/better/best/flagship FF lineup like Nikon is. Nor are they the specialized video/very good/best setup of the Sony lineup. Canon is Canon. Right now (and leaving out the aging 5D3), they are good (6D1) / all-arounder (5D4) / detail (5DS) / flagship (1DX2). It's a fairly unique portfolio in that regard.

So I'm not sure how user-specfic their FF line will be once the 6D2 drops. But they are currently on a trajectory where the 6D camp and the 5D# camp do indeed overlap in users (folks waffled on 5D3 vs. 6D just as they do now on 5D4 vs. 6D2 later), so Canon must be careful to not sex up the 6D2 too much for fear of spiking the punch for the 5D4. I see an aggressive nerfing of the 6D2 feature set in ways I outlined earlier -- they simply will not roll out a camera that does 95% as much as the 5D4 for half the price.

- A


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## benkam (Nov 1, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> benkam said:
> 
> 
> > Canon could actually have a nice full-frame alternative for the GH4 market here if the 6D2 comes with a tilty-flippy screen and a 4K codec for more manageable video files.
> ...



No basis on being so conclusive. 

Exactly the point of speculating on how the upcoming 6D2 would possibly do this.


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

Famateur said:


> For these reasons, I suspect some features, like resolution, frame rate and AF system will plateau in order to maintain differentiation-by-user-need rather than just differentiation-by-relative-difference-to-another-model.



But I firmly get your idea that there may be a future state where we don't roughly rank/peg the cameras being offered by their 'horsepower' specs like MP count, AF points, fps, etc.

Someday we could have the same sensor (or perhaps two) that go into a plurality of bodies laser-targeted for specific groups:

Standard sensor + warlike build + grip + extra CPU for high throughput and high FPS --> sports/wildlife

Standard sensor + tilty-flippy + 4K --> the video rig

Standard sensor + best possible silent shutter + onboard wireless flash controller --> the wedding rig

High res sensor + LiveView workflow streamlined for landscape/astro + astro cooler --> the tripod landscape rig


That said, I personally don't think Canon will go this far in specializing their rigs as new use-cases for photography evolve faster than they can make products for them. Also, rehashing sensor X in a $6k and a $2k body makes selling a $6k body pretty damn difficult, IMHO.

- A


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## Famateur (Nov 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> I see an aggressive nerfing of the 6D2 feature set in ways I outlined earlier -- they simply will not roll out a camera that does 95% as much as the 5D4 for half the price.
> 
> - A



I agree.

I think my main point is that people can't assume a spec will increase from one model version to the next (e.g. 6D to 6DII) just because there's functionality headroom between it and the next tier. For example, I would bet that the FPS won't move much in a 6D series body for the foreseeable future because it's already at a level that satisfies the intended market. I also highly doubt we'd see a second card slot, as one slot is all most entry-level people think they need.

Unless Canon is bold enough to move the 6D series functionally close to the 5D series (and that would defeat the purpose of the 6D's introduction as an entry-level full-frame body), I think it's safe to say that there will be much nerfing taking place. 

That said, I'd still be thrilled with a full-frame equivalent to the 80D.


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## benkam (Nov 1, 2016)

With the 5D3 and 6D, the differentiator was certainly not video. They both shot 1080p HD at 30p. That could be the case again with the 5D4 and 6D2 with 4K at 30p at 1.7X crop. I'd speculate on an eventual difference in codecs but who knows, maybe Canon just sticks with the current one.


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## AdjustedInCamera (Nov 1, 2016)

My biggest hope for this camera is a change to how I see Canon marketing their cameras. At the moment it seems, as others have pointed out, that they set the specs for the 'pros' and then create other models for consumers by cutting the specs down from there. 

I really hope that 5D/4 & 6D/2 can be very close in specs and differentiated in other ways. I think the tilty-flippy screen + new OS (with a more modern UI) would be perfect. 

As others have pointed out, this approach also opens up room for a FF below the 6D, again for consumers. I think this would make perfect sense.

This approach would also allow Canon to start taking advantage of the millions of people getting into photography by using their camera phones. Instead of seeing this as threat, this approach would see this as the phones 'seeding the camera market'. What people will want is the much better sensor in a dedicated camera device - something I assume is physically impossible on a camera because of the camera sensor's small size. The trick is to make a modern camera as easy to use as a camera phone. Touchscreens would help here.

As far as 4K is concerned. Consumers have 4K televisions now. They would be looking for a 4K camera also. Especially if the reason to go for a dedicated camera is IQ.

So basically the feature set should focus on migrating people to dedicated camera and I believe that will create a device, the 6D2, different enough from the 5D4 so as not to need to cut the specs too much.


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

AdjustedInCamera said:


> I really hope that 5D/4 & 6D/2 can be very close in specs and differentiated in other ways. I think the tilty-flippy screen + new OS (with a more modern UI) would be perfect.



Not happening, at least not at this level. Canon wants all of its SLRs to function in a similar manner (even if the specs / knobs / etc. are different from model to model):


Pros need a second body that doesn't operate/handle wildly differently from their primary body.
Lower level users with many years logged on a Rebel, 60D, etc. should not face a steep cliff learning-wise when they want to step up to a nicer camera

So I see zero chance in Canon pushing the TNT plunger on their current SLR UI -- instead, they'll favor slick functionality to add to it (use touchscreen to change AF point while camera's OVF is up against your eye, customize the 'blocks' of the back LCD display of settings, more user customizable options, etc.



AdjustedInCamera said:


> As others have pointed out, this approach also opens up room for a FF below the 6D, again for consumers. I think this would make perfect sense.
> 
> This approach would also allow Canon to start taking advantage of the millions of people getting into photography by using their camera phones. Instead of seeing this as threat, this approach would see this as the phones 'seeding the camera market'. What people will want is the much better sensor in a dedicated camera device - something I assume is physically impossible on a camera because of the camera sensor's small size. The trick is to make a modern camera as easy to use as a camera phone. Touchscreens would help here.



I've heard this as well: *a point and shoot FF rig in auto mode with a cell-phone like simple interface.* But as much as we see this (as SLR fans) sitting at a price point below a 6D2, I don't think that camera is an SLR at all:


The instagram social-media masses without photography experience (and without the patience to learn how to use one) do not want to change lenses, pay for lenses, etc. --> this points to a fixed lens camera.
Those same folks want to take these cameras into places that score huge numbers on social media, like concerts, sporting events, etc., so these cameras cannot be big --> this speaks to minimizing the size of the lens --> this again points to a fixed lens camera and possibly a camera without a mirror altogether.
Those same folks covet small DOF and bokeh because their cell phone cannot do that.

So, yes, there is a huge potential for a large sensored point and shoot, but it won't be an SLR, IMHO. A big Sony RX100 or grossly simplified RX1R would seem to be a more likely outcome.

- A


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## reef58 (Nov 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > For these reasons, I suspect some features, like resolution, frame rate and AF system will plateau in order to maintain differentiation-by-user-need rather than just differentiation-by-relative-difference-to-another-model.
> ...



One thing to keep in mind is, just because a 5d4 costs $1000 or more than a 6d2 does not mean it is more profitable.


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

reef58 said:


> One thing to keep in mind is, just because a 5d4 costs $1000 or more than a 6d2 does not mean it is more profitable.



Sure, if you just look at the camera body units. But who is more likely to buy a second FF body in a reasonable timeframe after buying their first? Who is more likely to slap more expensive L lenses on their camera because it is thought to be a finer instrument?

Pullthrough of other bigger ticket Canon hardware has got to be better for 5D4 and 5DS owners than (future) 6D2 owners. Same goes for 1DX2 owners buying even pricier things yet than the 5D4 or 5DS camp will.

- A


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## jeffa4444 (Nov 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> reef58 said:
> 
> 
> > One thing to keep in mind is, just because a 5d4 costs $1000 or more than a 6d2 does not mean it is more profitable.
> ...


There is no such thing as an average customer any longer. Workshops we have organised for non-professionals give you an insight into the money some people will spend on their hobby. Contra to that are professionals that have more bssic but high quality kits and produce amazing results. Then you can flip the above on its head. 
The 6D has to grow or it will die.


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## Kwwund (Nov 1, 2016)

Will there come a time when we buy cameras like we buy PC's? I can imagine going to the manufacturer's website, selecting a body, a sensor, memory, speed, AF capability, etc. from drop-down menus. Price is set accordingly.

This level of choice and customization is available in many technologically complex product categories, and has been for many years. If possible for autos, computers, and new home construction, why not for cameras? 

It may simplify the problem of categorizing products by user-type. Users can define their own needs and can fine tune the product to meet them. No more arguing hypotheticals on CR. Build what makes you happy.

What think?



ahsanford said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > For these reasons, I suspect some features, like resolution, frame rate and AF system will plateau in order to maintain differentiation-by-user-need rather than just differentiation-by-relative-difference-to-another-model.
> ...


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> There is no such thing as an average customer any longer. Workshops we have organised for non-professionals give you an insight into the money some people will spend on their hobby. Contra to that are professionals that have more bssic but high quality kits and produce amazing results. Then you can flip the above on its head.
> The 6D has to grow or it will die.



Whoa. I don't believe I said the 6D line should go away, or that it is not a high quality tool.

I'm saying the 5D line (in its two main forms) needs to appear sexier in comparison to substantiate its higher price, that's all. Canon can do that by making the 5D line much much better than the 6D line, it can hold back the 5D tech/cost of items they pipe into the 6D line, or -- what they will surely do -- is a little bit of both.

Agree the 6D line has to live on its own and succeed, but Canon won't let that project team run riot with blinders on to the rest of the portfolio. It needs to hit a price target, cost target, and feature set target. _That feature set target can't jeopardize pricier product sales_ -- that's why a 5D4 isn't packing 10+ fps, and that's why a 6D2 will absolutely be nerfed in some meaningful and targeted way to tip those 'I'm a 5D4 or 6D2 guy, I'm going to wait for the 6D2 announcement' people into choosing the pricier model. 

- A


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

Kwwund said:


> Will there come a time when we buy cameras like we buy PC's? I can imagine going to the manufacturer's website, selecting a body, a sensor, memory, speed, AF capability, etc. from drop-down menus. Price is set accordingly.
> 
> This level of choice and customization is available in many technologically complex product categories, and has been for many years. If possible for autos, computers, and new home construction, why not for cameras?
> 
> ...



Component by component? No. Even if there was a 'universal camera motherboard' you could plug everything into, even with just a few different variables to tweak -- sensor / CPU / LCD / buffer / grip -- you're staring at 32 models to inventory and carry. The prices would have to skyrocket to cover the excess / obsolescence of 32 discrete versions of a camera.

But your idea could work on the major fault lines that drive customer interest the most. Right now, the Nikon D5 is in two versions -- depends on the memory card you want. And both the 5DS and D800/D800E/D810 warranted more than one model on decision of an AA filter for slightly different reasons.

So it can and will continue to happen, but only for the very difficult design decisions where two camps of users are in somewhat equal proportion. I've been arguing for a universal back LCD mount for a long time so that people can snap in a tilty-flippy if they want it or leave in a vanilla fixed LCD if they don't.

- A


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## preppyak (Nov 1, 2016)

9VIII said:


> 50% less AF points is enough for marketing.
> 6MP less is enough for marketing.
> As long as Canon can make a similar amount of money off of either camera then the details are all semantics.


Add in 1 SD slot instead of 2 slots, and a 1/4000th shutter speed instead of 1/8000th and you've basically got it.


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## Billybob (Nov 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > For these reasons, I suspect some features, like resolution, frame rate and AF system will plateau in order to maintain differentiation-by-user-need rather than just differentiation-by-relative-difference-to-another-model.
> ...



You clearly don't know the Nikon lineup as well as your simplistic characterization suggests. Nikon does have a good FF camera, the D610, and a "flagship'/action camera, the D5, but then it gets murky. The next step up from the D610--at least in price--is the D750, which many argue is based on the D6XX body. Above that--again, in terms of price--is the D810. But there are many--myself and many others--who refute your assertion that the D810 is "better" than the D750. 

I'd argue that Nikon's two middle-priced cameras are both all-arounders. The D750 is faster than the D810--6.5 fps to 5 fps,respectively--, has slightly better high-ISO/low-light performance, a better AF system, lower-light sensitivity, WiFi, a tilty screen, and a built-in flash. The D810's advantages are 36MP (however, many don't consider this an advantage), a pro-build and UI consistent with the D5, an unusual ISO 64 base aperture, 1/8000 shutter, higher rated shutter durability, and faster flash sync. The D810 also does away with the AA filter (of course, many consider the missing filter a disadvantage), and can shoot 7fps in 15MP crop-sensor mode. So, unlike the high(er) resolution 5DS, the D810 can be an action camera with some limitations. 

A lot of Nikon photographers pick the D750 for its feature set as well as its price. Action photographers prefer the better continuous rate, better AF, and better low-light sensitivity. Those with a moire phobia prefer it as well. The lower price is just a nice bonus. Oh, I haven't even mentioned where the Df fits into this framework. 

Nikon was able to include so-many superior features in the less-expensive D750 because the 12MP difference, excluded AA filter, and ISO 64 setting provide the D810 a small but noticeable IQ advantage at base ISO. For most non-landscape and non-base ISO-shooting photographers, the difference is not that meaningful if at all. Hence, these photographers purchase the D810 primarily for its more rugged build and pro-layout that is consistent with Nikon pro-level cameras. 

If Canon moves the 6DMII up to 24+MP, Canon won't be able to distinguish the cameras on the basis of IQ, so it will have to rely on other "nerfing" factors to distinguish its cameras. In essence, it really must go with a good (6DMii)/better (5dMIV) distinction to keep the 6D followup from cannibalizing 5DMIV sales.


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## Ozarker (Nov 1, 2016)

reef58 said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Famateur said:
> ...



Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!. Absolutely right! Too many times people think the most expensive is the most profitable. Wrong. The sheer volume of the Rebel line sales and non-L glass probably makes them far more profitable.

You are a smart man.


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## 9VIII (Nov 1, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> AdjustedInCamera said:
> 
> 
> > I really hope that 5D/4 & 6D/2 can be very close in specs and differentiated in other ways. I think the tilty-flippy screen + new OS (with a more modern UI) would be perfect.
> ...




I agree that there's no need to change the UI, quite the opposite it would be nice if they would trickle down more of the top tier features into lower level bodies, I assume that the UI isn't a big expense on a per-unit basis.

We already know exactly what performance metrics the 6D2 is aiming for.
Just like the 6D effectively being a "budget 5D2", the only reason the 6D2 exists is to keep selling a body with the same place in the performance spectrum as the 5D3.
Take the 5D3, make it out of plastic, give it a flippy screen and wi-fi, there you go.
Look at the current price of the 5D3 at B&H, $2,499. There's your 6D2 MSRP.


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

Billybob said:


> You clearly don't know the Nikon lineup as well as your simplistic characterization suggests. Nikon does have a good FF camera, the D610, and a "flagship'/action camera, the D5, but then it gets murky. The next step up from the D610--at least in price--is the D750, which many argue is based on the D6XX body. Above that--again, in terms of price--is the D810. But there are many--myself and many others--who refute your assertion that the D810 is "better" than the D750.



The D750 is a pure hybrid of the line-leading D810 (poaching the AF in particular) and the budget D610 (resolution, 1/4000 shutter, etc.) with one loud exception -- the 6.5 fps. It's been a very successful camera, no doubt, but the sensor of the D810 is on a clearly different level, even if you don't need the pixels. (Whether you want 24 or 36 MP is a deep spiritual sort of thing for a photographer, so I won't even touch that.)

And many don't _argue_ the D750 is based on the D610. It simply is so. It's an upmarket D610 plain and simple.

I still call the Nikon lineup good/better/best despite that D750 6.5 fps distinction. It is the 'porridge is just right' camera for some who don't want the file weight and fps hit of a high MP rig, while it's also the _2nd best_ non-gripped camera for others. I stand by my prior assessment, and Nikon's pricing would appear to agree with me.

- A


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## Mikehit (Nov 1, 2016)

9VIII said:


> I agree that there's no need to change the UI, quite the opposite it would be nice if they would trickle down more of the top tier features into lower level bodies, I assume that the UI isn't a big expense on a per-unit basis.
> 
> We already know exactly what performance metrics the 6D2 is aiming for.
> Just like the 6D effectively being a "budget 5D2", the only reason the 6D2 exists is to keep selling a body with the same place in the performance spectrum as the 5D3.
> ...



But that changes the raison d'etre of the 6D. 
The 6D gave buyers a choice - you can either go sports-oriented APS-C (the 7D) or you could go landscape/portrait-oriented FF (the 6D). Did you want superior tracking or did you want superior image quality? Take your choice. 

If the 6D2 comes in at 2,500 it is no longer that FF entry-level, which way do you want your photography to differentiate decision point. It now becomes a 5D3 Mk2 and there is no entry-level FF camera at the price bracket of the 7D2 giving that same option. 
Don't forget that the 7D3 on release was the same price as the 5D4 is now so on that logic the 6D2 should be in the 1,500-1,800 bracket.


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

9VIII said:


> We already know exactly what performance metrics the 6D2 is aiming for.
> Just like the 6D effectively being a "budget 5D2", the only reason the 6D2 exists is to keep selling a body with the same place in the performance spectrum as the 5D3.
> Take the 5D3, make it out of plastic, give it a flippy screen and wi-fi, there you go.
> Look at the current price of the 5D3 at B&H, $2,499. There's your 6D2 MSRP.



Largely agree other than the sensor. Canon does not recycle FF sensors like they did in crop for so long. And some actually prefer the 6D sensor over the 5D3 sensor, so a 6D2 with a 5D3 sensor would leave quite a few upset with that offering.

But your basic premise is sound: obsolete the 5D3 and have the 6D2 fill it's current $2,250 spot in the market. Makes perfect sense.

- A


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## ahsanford (Nov 1, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> If the 6D2 comes in at 2,500 it is no longer that FF entry-level, which way do you want your photography to differentiate decision point. It now becomes a 5D3 Mk2 and there is no entry-level FF camera at the price bracket of the 7D2 giving that same option.
> Don't forget that the 7D3 on release was the same price as the 5D4 is now so on that logic the 6D2 should be in the 1,500-1,800 bracket.



Agree, but there has been a lot of chatter the 6D2 will move upmarket, likely into the spot the 5D3 serves today. 

I see Canon offering a maxed out '1DX2-lite' in a future 7D3 in the same price point as an entry-level FF rig, but the 6D2 would appear to be climbing out of the bargain basement spec sheet. Many are expecting a comprehensive AF upgrade (perhaps not 61 points, but surely more than 11!), tilty-flippy, etc. to turn it into a 'full-frame 80D' and _then_ a relatively stripped down new FF entry level might emerge.

- A


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## Luds34 (Nov 2, 2016)

Famateur said:


> I think my main point is that people can't assume a spec will increase from one model version to the next (e.g. 6D to 6DII) just because there's functionality headroom between it and the next tier. For example, I would bet that the FPS won't move much in a 6D series body for the foreseeable future because it's already at a level that satisfies the intended market. I also highly doubt we'd see a second card slot, as one slot is all most entry-level people think they need.



I don't necessarily disagree with you, in fact even hear you on the FPS. However, Canon isn't the only player in the market. It's not like they get to build out their own perfect product differentiation where each camera slots in to what they think we deserve and at what price. 

Take the current 6D's whole 11 focal points. It's obsolete on so many levels, even by Canon's own entry level Rebels now, let alone the competition. And Canon has relatively long product cycles so they need to release something that is not just competitive for a few months at release time, but something that still looks good 2, 3 years out. 

Which is why I wouldn't be surprised to see dual SD slots. It hardly costs Canon anything, and Nikon and others have dual slots available on similar market slotted and even much cheaper cameras.

In short, if Canon is going to ask $2k+ for this camera it really need to pack some of the power/features the competition is delivering on bodies they have at similar, even cheaper prices.


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## NancyP (Nov 2, 2016)

Better sensor DR, better low-light performance, 24 MP is fine - incremental changes
Flippy screen. SOOO handy for awkward shooting positions, tripod use, etc.
Keep interchangeable screens, I want the ultrafine screen because I use manual focus a lot.
Keep the small size. I am not sure that I want it shrunk to the EOS 100 microSLR size, because that won't necessarily balance with the lenses I use. But keep current size and weight. 

I suppose that I should consider the 5Dsr, but first I upgrade the 6 year old computer...


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## PCM-madison (Nov 2, 2016)

Maybe the 6D MII will be the rumored full frame mirrorless with EVF? It could get smaller and lighter without the mirror mechanism and pentaprism. Gain a built-in flash and be very different than the 5D MIV.


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## captainkanji (Nov 2, 2016)

I hope it has interchangeable focusing screens along with the usual IQ improvements. And no AA filter.


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## Alex_M (Nov 2, 2016)

.. and total *lack of weather sealing* - this on its own would be a deal breaker for many.

1/4000 max shutter speed
1/180 max x-sync speed.




9VIII said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...


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## 9VIII (Nov 2, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > If the 6D2 comes in at 2,500 it is no longer that FF entry-level, which way do you want your photography to differentiate decision point. It now becomes a 5D3 Mk2 and there is no entry-level FF camera at the price bracket of the 7D2 giving that same option.
> ...



I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
It makes sense to keep any Full Frame body with an MSRP under $2,000 in the Rebel line.

Likewise, maybe they might be better off making the 7D more capable and keeping it above $2,000. I don't know how they would differentiate between the entry level full frame and mid tier sports crop body, but it wouldn't be that hard just to launch something new and keep the 90D following the path of the 7D series.
Or they could just kill off the mid tier sports, bump the 800D upmarket, and "finally" bring back the SL series with the SL2 replacing the "upper entry" slot left by the increased price of the 800D.

Most of all I'm just curious to see what they do when they run out of numbers.


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## benkam (Nov 2, 2016)

What Canon could do if they want a true entry-level full-frame and a mid-range prosumer full-frame, they could roll out the 6D Mark II with 25MP, 6fps, improved AF, flippy screen, dual SD, 4K, same 6D-level weather resistance (so a good way behind the improved 5D4 weather sealing), and push the launch price up a bit from from the original 1799 to $1,999.

And then at the same time, take the good old 6D, do almost nothing new with it -- so still the same 20MP, 4.5fps, same AF, single SD, HD only -- put it in a plastic, er polycarbonate, body, and the only thing new being a fixed 1.04M-dot touchscreen since even the SL1/100D has one. Voila, new-build full-frame for the masses. Call it a single-digit 8D and price it at, a ground-breaking for full-frame, $999.


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## Maiaibing (Nov 2, 2016)

9VIII said:


> I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
> It makes sense to keep any Full Frame body with an MSRP under $2,000 in the Rebel line.



6D launch at far too high a price. Canon gave it a better sensor than the 5DIII, wifi and gps but it was still overpriced at ~2,100$. However at ~1,000$ its a virtual steal. Think I paid ~1,200$ for mine which I use as a very capable back-up. Best value camera Canon ever made. I think they have sold a lot after the price came down. Probably got a few Canon shooters hooked on FF and L-lenses at the same time.

I'm sure Canon will go for the same price level again (>2,000$). Just give it a better sensor than the 5DIV and I'll pick one up fast.


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## tr573 (Nov 2, 2016)

Alex_M said:


> .. and total *lack of weather sealing* - this on its own would be a deal breaker for many.




"The protection provided by the design and sealing is equivalent to that of the EOS-1N film camera; the weather-sealing standard by which other professional cameras were judged."
Source: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_the_canon_eos_6d.do

"The protection provided by the design and sealing is equivalent to that of the EOS-1N film camera; the weather-sealing standard by which other professional cameras were judged."
Source: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_canon_eos_5d_mark_iii.do

Canon's nonsense marketing speak aside, neither camera is water proof and neither camera is warrantied against water damage, so whatever. 





Alex_M said:


> 1/180 max x-sync speed.



As silly as this was as a differentiation that Canon shoehorned in, it's even sillier when people act like it makes a lick of difference. It's a sixth of a stop. For all intents and purposes it's pretty much the same as a 1/200th sync speed.


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## ahsanford (Nov 2, 2016)

9VIII said:


> I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
> It makes sense to keep any Full Frame body with an MSRP under $2,000 in the Rebel line.
> 
> Likewise, maybe they might be better off making the 7D more capable and keeping it above $2,000.



It's very hard to get and maintain $2k for a crop camera. There is a well funded birding/wildlife group that will jump at a 1DX-lite for $2500, but there aren't enough of them. So the demand for it isn't nearly as durable as (say) a wedding photographer, portrait studio, news agencies, etc.

Consider: Canon is only finishing up year two (out of presumably 5) on the market and the 7D2's price has already eroded considerably. I'm not sure how you maintain a high price on one without dramatically moving it upmarket -- go full 1DX-lite with an integrated grip, bomb-proof build, much higher fatigue rating on the shutter, etc. But even then, that climb in price will undercut its units and overall profitability will suffer. 

Nikon may actually have been wise to abandon this segment for as long as it did.

- A


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## Alex_M (Nov 2, 2016)

1. it turns out that 6D weather sealing does not live up to the expectations. see this short video for details:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6ZMJiOjFSk

2. 1/180 s X-Sync speed:

You cannot get to 1/180 if your camera aperture, ISO and shutter increments set in 1/3 of a stop and you shoot in Manual mode. the closest you can get is 1/160. so that's more like 1/3 of a stop?
to me it is more about the ability to control ambient light if I have wider range of shutter speed available to me.
Yes, HSS works well but whenever I crossed into that territory, it cost me approximatelly 2.5 stops of my speedlite power. 
And if you happen to use light meter for studio shots or for accurate ambient light metering and your light meter is set in 1/3 of a stop to match your camera settings. same issue: if you set your T=1/180 then you get ISO and F increments in 1/2 of a stop instead and wise versa. Pain in the neck.

If you shoot in AV mode and set you X-Sync to be 1/180 fixed in settings then you can still have your F and ISO set in 1/3 of a stop. 







tr573 said:


> Alex_M said:
> 
> 
> > .. and total *lack of weather sealing* - this on its own would be a deal breaker for many.
> ...


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## rrcphoto (Nov 2, 2016)

9VIII said:


> I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
> It makes sense to keep any Full Frame body with an MSRP under $2,000 in the Rebel line.



weird. because in my world $1500 is not "nearing $1000" .. 

also .. I'm sure the costs associated with it have been amortized completely out so Canon probably does not regret it at all.

they certainly aren't going to sell a new 6D mark II for your "nearing $1000" amount.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 2, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
> ...



the Yen was at a all time high when it came out.


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## tr573 (Nov 2, 2016)

Alex_M said:


> 1. it turns out that 6D weather sealing does not live up to the expectations. see this short video for details:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6ZMJiOjFSk



Like I said, Canon marketing speak aside  I wouldn't trust any camera not warrantied against water intrusion unprotected with water, unless I had insurance on it. 

We can say the 7D2 or the 5D3 is better sealed, but what does that really mean? It has more flimsy rubber gaskets that may or may not have been properly installed, and may or may not have been properly greased, and may or may not fail the first time you take it in the rain and then Canon will do nothing for you and you are out your money. I don't worry about manufacturers claims on water sealing, because I don't trust them - if they don't stand behind it, they don't consider it adequate either. 

Edit: Look at it this way - this isn't a watch where you can actually pen test it in water without getting any water inside it if the seals fail. If it fails, you're out a camera. 



Alex_M said:


> 2. 1/180 s X-Sync speed:
> 
> You cannot get to 1/180 if your camera aperture, ISO and shutter increments set in 1/3 of a stop and you shoot in Manual mode. the closest you can get is 1/160. so that's more like 1/3 of a stop?
> to me it is more about the ability to control ambient light if I have wider range of shutter speed available to me.
> ...



You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.


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## Famateur (Nov 2, 2016)

Luds34 said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > I think my main point is that people can't assume a spec will increase from one model version to the next (e.g. 6D to 6DII) just because there's functionality headroom between it and the next tier. For example, I would bet that the FPS won't move much in a 6D series body for the foreseeable future because it's already at a level that satisfies the intended market. I also highly doubt we'd see a second card slot, as one slot is all most entry-level people think they need.
> ...



Excellent points.


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## Maiaibing (Nov 2, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
> ...


Got mine 16 months ago for ~1.200$ in Europe (after VAT refund).


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## Maiaibing (Nov 2, 2016)

tr573 said:


> You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.



The line of argument here is wrong. The issue is not 1/2 or 1/3 stop or whatever. the problem is lack of shutter speed. Try shooting people dancing at a party w/180. Even 1/250 would help a lot.

I never cease to wonder how I could have 1/320 in the film days and now have 1/200-1/250 in the digital age???


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## tr573 (Nov 2, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> tr573 said:
> 
> 
> > You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.
> ...



I'm not disagreeing that very high sync speeds would be great - I'd love 1/500. I anxiously await global electronic shutters that can flash sync. I'm disagreeing that there is a practical difference between the sync speeds of the 6D (1/180) and 5D (1/200) series, because there is none. You're not freezing motion @ 1/200 that would be a blurry mess @ 1/180.


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## Ryananthony (Nov 2, 2016)

tr573 said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > tr573 said:
> ...



Hopefully this isn't too off topic or perhaps I can be lead in appropriate direction, I just googled sync speeds vs high speed sync, I'm still not making sense of it. Why do camera sync speeds matter, if you can just use high speed sync to freeze anything past the camera set sync speed. I'm obviously missing something but I've never used flash more then simple top mount ttl set up a couple times. Thanks


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## tr573 (Nov 2, 2016)

Ryananthony said:


> tr573 said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



Flash sync is the fastest shutter speed at which the shutter can be entirely open at once , so that the flash can pulse while it's fully open. Above sync speed, the shutter has to travel across the sensor/film like a slit, and the entire thing is never exposed at once. The higher you go, the smaller the slit becomes.

HSS flash will "pulse" the flash rapidly as this happens, so that it can expose the whole sensor - but you lose flash power because it obviously can't pulse multiple times at the same power it can dump it's entire charge at once at. The higher you go in shutter speed, the more power you lose, because it has to pulse more times to expose the whole sensor.


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## Ryananthony (Nov 2, 2016)

tr573 said:


> Ryananthony said:
> 
> 
> > tr573 said:
> ...



Beautiful. Thanks for the quick and easy explanation. I aprreciate it, and understand now.


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## 9VIII (Nov 2, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > I think Canon probably regrets making the 6D, it's a "single digit" camera body, market prices nearing $1,000 does not seem suitable.
> ...



Right, if it's a low unit sales segment no matter what, they should treat it more like the 1D.
Dropping the price within six months of release indicates it did not sell well, if the market is that small, maybe a $3,000 body with significantly better features is exactly what the market is looking for?
I wouldn't be surprised if competition from crazy high burst rates on mirrorless cameras is eroding the 7D2's intended price point, if the perceived value equation on the market is changing, then maybe they just need to make a more capable plastic body for less money.

Which is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for right now. 7D in an SL1 body (with a Flippy Screen).
Or the M5, but I'm going to have to look at a lot of reviews on its birding performance before I would be convinced it's actually suitable for my purposes.


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## Gnocchi (Nov 2, 2016)

Good! They should be concentrating there efforts on a 50mm replacement, not another body.


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## Alex_M (Nov 3, 2016)

Sorry, the issue is not about being unable to freeze the moment. Flash duration is less than 1/200 anyway so that does not affect the moment freezing ability  It is all about ability to control Ambient light. The faster shutter speed the higher flash to ambient light ratio and so on and so forth. 

Yes , one can meter for T=1/200 and shot in T=1/180 instead. That is possible but is annoying as...

At times I think that Canon deliberately annoys the heck out of 6D users to push them over the edge and into the 5D camp. Now, that's smart but .. annoying...  





tr573 said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > tr573 said:
> ...


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## The Flasher (Nov 3, 2016)

If rumors hold true, the dual cards and tilt screen will be enough to upgrade current 6D. Slightly faster flash sync and few more x-type af points a bonus. 4k? Meh, 6D was useless for video without the aa filter, I expect a relative bump in uselessness in mark 2.


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## ahsanford (Nov 3, 2016)

The Flasher said:


> If rumors hold true, the dual cards and tilt screen will be enough to upgrade current 6D. Slightly faster flash sync and few more x-type af points a bonus. 4k? Meh, 6D was useless for video without the aa filter, I expect a relative bump in uselessness in mark 2.



6D2 advantages over the 6D1:

*Certainly: A new FF sensor with on chip ADC
Certainly: A much better AF system*
Certainly: Touchscreen
Probably: DPAF
Probably: Tilty-flippy
Probably: Small bump in fps
Possibly: Anti-flicker mode
Possibly: 2 card slots
Possibly: 1/200 flash sync 
Possibly: 4K
Possibly: 1/8000 max shutter speed
Possibly: More f/8 AF points for wildlifer TC use

The two in bold alone will get the brand business, but surely _some_ of the 'probably' entries will happen as well.

- A


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## Herofiles (Nov 3, 2016)

Lets hope 6Dmk2 has "Low-pass Cancellation"  

I would love this, would be an awesome upgrade from 70D


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## symmar22 (Nov 3, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> tr573 said:
> 
> 
> > You actually can - once you have a flash attached, it will shoot at 1/180 in M without issue. (See attached EXIF) Yes you can't set your external meter to 1/180, but again honestly it's 1/6th of a stop. It's not going to make any difference, just meter for 1/200th and be done with it. This is a big perceived difference for some (and perhaps that makes it a shrewd decision by canon marketing to upsell people) but it's literally never caused me any grief.
> ...



Same here, how come a 1984 Nikon FM2 had a 1/250s flash sync or a 1992 Minolta Dynax 9 had a 1/300s (1/12000 max shutter speed), and Canon is still stuck with a 1/200s sync speed on the 5D series, in 2016 ?

Agreed, their shutter is very reliable, but one would assume, since the 5D 11 years ago, they could have worked a bit on improving the speed.

It can only be explained from a marketing point of view, as much as I like Canon gear, this is lame. On a 4000€ camera, one should not get the "el cheapo" flash sync. When you have to sync the camera with manual studio flashes, especially when they are radio triggered, you better stick with 1/125 or 1/160 max if you want full frame exposure.


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## Mikehit (Nov 3, 2016)

9VIII said:


> Dropping the price within six months of release indicates it did not sell well,


More likely the initial price is overinflated to take advantage of the early adopters - if it sells better than expected the shops can keep the price artificially high. But one thing you need to be aware of is that (as far as I am aware) the price Canon sells to the retailers does not change and in that respect the profit margins for Canon do not change after 6 months. What changes is the shops not making as much profit. 
If manufacturers don't factor in this 'early adopter premium' then they aren't doing their job properly.



9VIII said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if competition from crazy high burst rates on mirrorless cameras is eroding the 7D2's intended price point,



Possible but IMO unlikely. Burst rate is not the most important bit to people attracted to the 7D2 - it is the sub-1Dx AF system which mirrorless cannot yet match. And when it can, be assured Canon will be making them as well.


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## ahsanford (Nov 3, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > Dropping the price within six months of release indicates it did not sell well,
> ...



Depends on the product:


On some products, Canon insists on holding a very firm price. The 5D3 did this (with some authorized reseller shenanigans that fluttered the price until Canon crushed that practice)and the price was kept high for a very long time.


On other products, Canon got the initial pricing terribly, horribly wrong and initial sales are clearly low: the 24/28/35 IS refreshes for ~ $799, and the 24-70 f/4L IS for $1,499 are prime examples of this. Canon has no choice but to make a one-time major price change.


On yet a third bucket of products, price steadily erodes over the product lifecycle until Canon sets a 'floor' that they will not deviate until inventory is burned off. This has happened somewhat on some enthusiast bodies (6D) and also on some camera bodies that just didn't take off in the market (early EOS M models, SL1, etc.)

But I would argue a classically overpriced item on day one that is discounted intelligently to what the market will bear has _not_ been a normal move for Canon. I stand that for those who were desperately waiting for the 7D2 two years ago, Canon could have sold them a $2500 camera until pre-orders were filled and then walked the price down for the masses. Canon -- never accused of offering bargain-priced gear -- seems to avoided this predatory pricing approach.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Nov 3, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...



why do people look at the US price as if it's gospel on Canon's policy's - not to mention Canon USA street prices?

Canon USA pricing has many different variables not associated with the cost of the camera. Taxation, fuel, exchange rates, insurance, dealer %,etc,etc.

exchange rates even then gets split out for the variations in between the various global companies that make up Canon.. ie: if Canon HK starts to get too low of a price as compared to Canon USA, then Canon USA would tend to adjust their prices, because of grey market. Canon USA also has to adjust values based upon the cost of warranty parts,etc during the lifespan of the product, marketing,etc. Some of the products also were involved in patent litigation, probably also causing their prices to reflect that. Gas / Trucking and shipping prices even as they change will change Canon USA's pricing model. As we saw with the 5D Mark IV nearly half the price of the camera is the local distributor and dealer overhead.

But looking at Canon USA as the be all and end all judge of canon pricing when canon isn't a US company and thinking that it's just because of competition or how a product sells - is odd at best.


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## ahsanford (Nov 3, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> why do people look at the US price as if it's gospel on Canon's policy's - not to mention Canon USA street prices?



It's the best data I have, that's all. Your point is well made.

But in fairness, authorized US pricing is at least one step closer to Canon's will than street pricing is. 

- A


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## rrcphoto (Nov 3, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > why do people look at the US price as if it's gospel on Canon's policy's - not to mention Canon USA street prices?
> ...



the cpw graph uses street pricing which isn't the MAP price.


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## ahsanford (Nov 3, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> the cpw graph uses street pricing which isn't the MAP price.



Shut the front door. No way. Had no idea.

But surely that only speaks to those Richter/polygraph scale-like deviations from the 'main plateaus', right? The plateaus themselves one would think correspond to MAP, right?

- A


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## unfocused (Nov 3, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > the cpw graph uses street pricing which isn't the MAP price.
> ...



I think the CPW graph actually uses lowest advertised price after rebates. It's the price currently being offered on the "street," but isn't the same as CPW's own "street price," which is an unadvertised price offered directly through CPW. 

For example, the graph currently shows the 7DII at $1500, which is the lowest advertised price currently available from an authorized dealer. While the CPW "street price" of $1350 is _*not*_ reflected on the graph. I'm not sure what causes those "Richter/polygraph scale-like deviations" but that might represent dealer specials, rebates, etc.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 3, 2016)

unfocused said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



I stand corrected - I thought it was street and not MAP .. but .. MAP can't go up and down as much as graph tends to show. (sometimes up and down like a freaking yoyo).


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## unfocused (Nov 4, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



I don't know either, but things like this http://www.canonpricewatch.com/blog/2016/11/hot-rebel-t6-2-lenses-printer-for-349-ar-back-at-adorama/ could explain some of the yoyo-ing.


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