# best quallity ,full framecanon dslr choice ?



## sharagim1 (May 8, 2011)

i"m new member but i check this website everyday since last year for find new rumors news about new dslr,lens,
anyway ,now i do have canon 7d, ad some lens like 70-200,2.8 usmll ,10-22 ultrawide, 85mm1.8, 28-135,
now i"d like to buy proffational dslr (full frame) , thta"s very bad sitution for me, 
5d markll is almost 3 years o the market asnd 5d marklll will be comming a couple of month later, 
also i like to but 1ds marklll ,but the new one will be cooming ,,,,,,,
please give me some idea what should i do, i have to wait or buy one of them,
thanks for any idea


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## HughHowey (May 8, 2011)

You should sell me your lenses and buy a Nikon.


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## akiskev (May 8, 2011)

HughHowey said:


> You should sell me your lenses and buy a Nikon.


Such an idiotic idea. 
You should sell them to me!


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## mreco99 (May 8, 2011)

If you need it now, buy it now. if you dont need it now, wait.
Everything will be cheaper in the future.


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## LuCoOc (May 8, 2011)

mreco99 said:


> If you need it now, buy it now. if you dont need it now, wait.
> Everything will be cheaper in the future.



you can do that. both current full frame cameras (5D II and 1Ds III) deliver impressive image quality.
however if you want to wait you could also buy a used 5D I and sell it when a 5D III or 1Ds IV comes out. you won't loose much money that way if at all because your 5D I's value isn't influenced by any product anouncements.


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## gene_can_sing (May 8, 2011)

Just WAIT. 

You have a 7d camera that works. Cannon needs to be forced to bring new stuff out, and the only way to do that is to make them lose money. 

At least for video (my main concern), they are LONG overdue on fixes for their cameras. The next 5D3 NEEDS to be a huge jump for video.

If you are a stills photographer, the cameras coming out won't be as huge of a jump.

If you really need a camera, then get one, otherwise, everyone should just stop buying stuff and the new stuff will come quicker. I guarantee that. Simple laws of economics.


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## zerotiu (May 9, 2011)

sharagim1, we are on the same boat. I own T2i tho. I know this situation "tortures"  . My opinion is, just wait and use your 7D OR if you have more monye, buy a used 5D2, sell it again after 5D3 is announced (but if you do this, your 10-22 will be useless)


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## ronderick (May 9, 2011)

mmm... the more I reply to these sort of questions, the closer I get to coming up with some set doctrine.

@ Sharagim1: Since you already have a 7D (which is the top of the line for APS-C bodies), I'd say you can afford to wait. Your lens collection also gives ur 7D the capabilities to take good pictures over a wide range (16mm - 320mm on 35mm equv.).

I think at this point, you'll have to make the decision of whether you want to keep both APS-C line and FF line, or discard APS-C and go for complete FF lineup, or remain with APS-C. 

Again, for those who only have an entry-level body and 1 or 2 EF-S lens, the burden isn't as heavy; however, if you are considering about FF all the way, you'll probably have to consider how you can unload ur EF-S lens for a good price and acquire the EF lens for ur upcoming EF. All these require some planning (mapping, actually) and finding buyers for your gears in advance.

In ur case, the only one you have to deal with is the 10-22mm, since ur other lens would work on the FF bodies. Of course, if the health of ur wallet isn't an issue, you can keep the 10-22 permenantly attached to your 7D, and simply acquire 5D2/5D3 and an ultrawide EF lens (or if you want, u can replace ur 28-135mm with the 24-105/24-70).

PS: We'll be lucky if we get new FF camera body announcements by the end of the year (supplies? I think there's going to be even more problems with rolling blackouts during the summer seasons when power use is higher than usual).


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## steven63 (May 11, 2011)

If you can wait, wait. The 7D is a fine camera in its own right (I own it also). I love the focus system! I've done ALOT of reading about Canon's next DSLR moves and it sounds like they are on the verge of some major changes. Such as doing away with the 1.3 crop and making aps-c and h sensors exclusively. That puts the 1dmkv into the FF range (with 10fps!) and the 1dsmkiv into a higher end system exclusively for studio use? 

I think the 5dmkiii is going to be a very special camera by taking the position of the 1dsmkiii - the mkii already sucked away it's sales. I'm waiting for it to come out because I also want a FF dslr to compliment my 7d.

If they give the 5dmkiii the 7d's focus systems, an iso push and a couple frames per sec I'd buy it in an instant.

Just my thoughts...


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## Bruce Photography (May 11, 2011)

This post is just answering just this one person's situation and without even knowing his financial sensitivity. In my case I own all of his same lenses and I have both the 7d and the 5DMK II. Without know how you use your camera I can only tell you that the full frame 5DMK II does always produce the finer detailed images that I am looking for in photography especially when I use a tripod and of course RAW format. I have a problem with 7D noise above ISO 250. I can minimize it in software but then I sacrifice some degree of sharpness or detail. It is not bad but an APS-C sensor is less than half the mm2 area of a full frame image sensor.

However I do use my 7D for situations where I want to use wireless flash without having to use something seperate on my hot shoe. I also use the 7D when I need to do birding with my larger telephotos to get the almost free 1.6x crop factor. I'm sure the next version of the 7D will really address the ISO factor noise. By the way you can reference the noise difference in Pop Photography reviews of the 7D, 50D, 60D, and the 5DMK II. The 5DMK II noise numbers are awesome. Even the 50D numbers for noise are better than the 7D as well as the 60D.

So while I don't know many things about your usage and other factors, I can still recommend getting a 5D MK II now with a kit lens of the 24-105L. Sure there might be other versions in the future, but this is a proven combination right now. If I could have only one camera and one lens, this would be the combination. Then dump the 28-135 -- it will be a joke after you try the 24-105L. If you keep both cameras (I think that is a good idea - a good backup is always wise), you can use the 10-22 (cropped 16-35) on the 7D and the 24-105 on the 7D becomes 38 - 168 which is a very useful size for event photography. Also that lens is black and somewhat small and doesn't draw as much attention as my white lenses.

Someday you may want some prime wides but this is another discussion.


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## sharagim1 (May 11, 2011)

Bruce Photography said:


> This post is just answering just this one person's situation and without even knowing his financial sensitivity. In my case I own all of his same lenses and I have both the 7d and the 5DMK II. Without know how you use your camera I can only tell you that the full frame 5DMK II does always produce the finer detailed images that I am looking for in photography especially when I use a tripod and of course RAW format. I have a problem with 7D noise above ISO 250. I can minimize it in software but then I sacrifice some degree of sharpness or detail. It is not bad but an APS-C sensor is less than half the mm2 area of a full frame image sensor.
> 
> However I do use my 7D for situations where I want to use wireless flash without having to use something seperate on my hot shoe. I also use the 7D when I need to do birding with my larger telephotos to get the almost free 1.6x crop factor. I'm sure the next version of the 7D will really address the ISO factor noise. By the way you can reference the noise difference in Pop Photography reviews of the 7D, 50D, 60D, and the 5DMK II. The 5DMK II noise numbers are awesome. Even the 50D numbers for noise are better than the 7D as well as the 60D.
> 
> ...


very great info, about 5d mark ll,just problem is at this time i"m not sure is the right time for buy 5d mark ll or no? i"d like to buy canon lens 24-70 ,but after install on the 7d isn"t give me good range. this time is very confusing me for get anything and i heard till next year 5d markll doesn"t come to the market, , i don"t know about about 1ds marklll replace ment?


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## dstppy (May 11, 2011)

Bruce Photography said:


> I have a problem with 7D noise above ISO 250.



Is this super low light? I see no such issue with the 60D in most situations up to 800. I'm a bit fussy about softness or noise as I'm a neurotic pixel-peeper :-\ Any chance there's something wrong with the 7D?


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## neuroanatomist (May 11, 2011)

dstppy said:


> Bruce Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I have a problem with 7D noise above ISO 250.
> ...



Cue Paul Simon..."_One man's ceiling is another man's floor._"

Personally, I don't like to go above ISO 800 on my 7D (compared to a usable ISO 3200 on my 5DII). DxO does a very good job at reducing the noise without sacrificing sharpness (much better than DPP, IMO).


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## NormanBates (May 11, 2011)

(sorry, wrong thread)


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## te4o (May 12, 2011)

I wonder about the general tone in this community: whenever someone new appears and asks Buy or Wait, the main trend in the recommendations is: *buy* - current cameras are just as great as they could be. I'd say: DON'T BUY ANY NEW Canon high-end DSLR now, if you need one - look for a 2hand. Business for Canon should be as tough as possible - there's no place for sympathy. Lifting prices alone should be a NoBuy-Signal. Do you all get your income increased? I don't.
So, whoever really needs a camera, doesn't stop here to ask this question. And whoever asks - doesn't need it urgently! 
I suggest to everyone reading: stop asking the question like should I buy the 5D2 now. Would you buy a computer designed 2006-7 and released 2008?


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## 87vr6 (May 12, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> DxO does a very good job at reducing the noise without sacrificing sharpness (much better than DPP, IMO).



I'm a huge fan of DxO


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## sharagim1 (May 12, 2011)

I'd say: DON'T BUY ANY NEW Canon high-end DSLR now, if you need one - look for a 2hand. Business for Canon should be as tough as possible -

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the problem is i seached alot for any website , all the used 5d markll looks like brand new price, $2300, $2100, $2000
the diffrence just $200 or $300
is realy worth for buy canon 5d mark ll used the same as new price almost?


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## gene_can_sing (May 12, 2011)

te4o said:


> So, whoever really needs a camera, doesn't stop here to ask this question. And whoever asks - doesn't need it urgently!
> I suggest to everyone reading: stop asking the question like should I buy the 5D2 now. Would you buy a computer designed 2006-7 and released 2008?



This is so TRUE of the current Canon line-up. OUTDATED and in need of a re-fresh. DON'T BUY. If everyone did that, the 5D3 will come out faster. DON'T BUY.


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## Macadameane (May 12, 2011)

gene_can_sing said:


> te4o said:
> 
> 
> > So, whoever really needs a camera, doesn't stop here to ask this question. And whoever asks - doesn't need it urgently!
> ...



Computers aren't the same as cameras. Comparing them is like apples and oranges.

If everyone did that, the 5D3 would come out faster? That could be true, but it would be only a small update. Also, by saying "don't buy" you are also saying, "stick with what you have, limit your potential". If you have a need, buy it.

I want the 5D3 (which I do plan on buying) to be a nice upgrade, not an incremental upgrade.


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## steven63 (May 12, 2011)

"Computers aren't the same as cameras. Comparing them is like apples and oranges."

I have to disagree with that statement. Essentially a digital camera IS a computer. They have processors (DIGIC III, IV, etc.) and rely on circuits to operate effectively. Computer processing speed doubles every two years according to Moore's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law). I would think this would apply strictly to a cameras ability to process data twice as fast every two years and not for frame rates (a mechanical function). So while we wouldn't expect the 5dmkiii to double it's frame rate from a mechanical point of view - necessarily, it could very easily process the data from the sensor twice as fast! Thus, allowing for a faster shutter speed since the processor can keep up AND since Canon has already proven they can make a mechanical shutter at 10fps...it isn't a stretch to ask for a full frame camera to do 8fps with current technology. 


So why wouldn't it be logical to expect a camera's abilities to increase substantially every couple years? Note, I didn't say double every two years, but a substantial increase. The only mechanical portion of the DLSR is the shutter and since manufacturers can get those to 10fps and computer power doubles every 2 years...well I think I made my point: The 5dmkiii should be a substantial increase in ALL areas. Anything less and I would question if Canon is holding back.

Lenses are another issue altogether. There is no physics law describing the ability of optical performance over a given period of time (that I know of). Therefore, while DSLR performance from a technological point of view can double every two years, lense abilities cannot. I guess that's why buying an 'L' lense will hold its value for years.

But knowing a DSLR is essentially a computer why do we have such outrageous prices for used models? A used 5dmkii (or any used camera for that matter) selling for almost what a new one sells for is a crime imo. As someone above me said, you wouldn't buy a 2008 model computer for todays prices.


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## Macadameane (May 12, 2011)

People aren't constantly developing software for DIGIC processors. Desktop computers are pushed to be faster because people are constantly developing applications to push limits.

Can a camera processor be faster yearly? Sure it can. Does it need to be? No. I love my 8 fps on my 7D, but there is more than processor speed that I care about. If canon is trying to release pro cameras constantly, it will hurt them. How many people on this forum alone are still carrying a 5D classic, a 40D, or even an older Rebel. They still get the job done! Desktop computers don't always have this luxury. As technologies improve, if you want newer software, you must upgrade. Whereas with a camera, you can still take great photos even with an "outdated" camera.


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## neuroanatomist (May 12, 2011)

steven63 said:


> So while we wouldn't expect the 5dmkiii to double it's frame rate from a mechanical point of view - necessarily, it could very easily process the data from the sensor twice as fast!



That seems consistent. The 5DII processes data twice as fast as the original 5D, and while the frame rate only went up by 0.9 fps, the 5DII sensor produces 60% more image data per frame. 



steven63 said:


> it isn't a stretch to ask for a full frame camera to do 8fps with current technology.



I should think not, since Nikon's D3s offers 9 fps from a FF sensor (albeit one with only 12 megapixels).



steven63 said:


> But knowing a DSLR is essentially a computer why do we have such outrageous prices for used models? A used 5dmkii (or any used camera for that matter) selling for almost what a new one sells for is a crime imo. As someone above me said, you wouldn't buy a 2008 model computer for todays prices.



True - but that 2008 model computer might have some trouble running the current OS and software, whereas a 2008 dSLR can still take good pictures.


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## steven63 (May 12, 2011)

"True - but that 2008 model computer might have some trouble running the current OS and software, whereas a 2008 dSLR can still take good pictures."

I build my home computers and the last time I threw one together was 2009. I bought a very good processor and top of the line video card and RAM. It runs like a raped aped still today and there isn't any software on the market it can't handle flawlessly, but I couldn't sell it today nearly what I paid for it.

I don't point that out to rebut your statement so much as I do to bolster my position that 'old' cameras fetching a premium are overpriced - but for perhaps a good reason. I think it is precisely because Canon (and Nikon) do not come out with new models every few months that keeps the prices of their older products high.

Could they produce a camera every 6 months with 1/4 more processing speed and thus larger sensors with faster shutters? Yes, I believe they can. Can the market support it? No I don't think so. Camera buyers are far fewer in number than home computer buyers (some homes have 2-3 computers) so it wouldn't make sense for them to introduce a bunch of new upgrades so often.

So they wait 2-3 years and introduce an upgrade that is not up to the potential of the processors abilities according to Moore's law. For instance the next 5dmkiii could realistically have a 30mp sensor (conservatively, according to Moore's law) and a 10fps shutter mechanism but will it? I doubt it. I guess that's my main point: they could double their sensors abilities every 2 years but instead we have incremental improvements across a series of levels of camera bodies and be charged a premuim for the increase. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative; nor am I trying to say I hate Canon and their products. To the contrary. I Just don't think we are getting the true potential of the DSLR product.


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## sharagim1 (May 13, 2011)

i just bought canon 5d mark ll today $2499 and it"s brand new,
when i check the battery info i saw shutter count: 400
shouldn"t be 0 or is not bigh deal?
is it possible after shooting alot , bring the shutter count to the minimum? (with new firmware)?
thanks for any response.


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## neuroanatomist (May 13, 2011)

sharagim1 said:


> i just bought canon 5d mark ll today $2499 and it"s brand new,
> when i check the battery info i saw shutter count: 400
> shouldn"t be 0 or is not bigh deal?
> is it possible after shooting alot , bring the shutter count to the minimum? (with new firmware)?
> thanks for any response.



If you're seeing that under Battery Info, that just indicates the shutter count for that charge on the battery. It returns to zero when you charge the battery. I'm not sure why it didn't start at zero - sounds odd (and $2499 is a bargain today) - did you buy from a reputable dealer?

The actual shutter count (as recorded by the camera and read out using software like EOSInfo) cannot be reset (or if it can, I have no idea how, but the idea is that it's like the odometer on your car...).


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## NotABunny (May 13, 2011)

steven63 said:


> I Just don't think we are getting the true potential of the DSLR product.



Medium frame cameras take photos with 16 bits of tonal range (just 2 bits more than FF and APSC cameras), at a rate of barely more than 1 per second, and sell at tens of times more than FF and APSC cameras. So, the *true potential of a camera*, could be to take *better photos*, not faster and with more pixels.



steven63 said:


> Could they produce a camera every 6 months with 1/4 more processing speed and thus larger sensors with faster shutters?



Ah, you believe that sensors are small because the microprocessors are slow. You really have to stop thinking at cameras like they are computers and microprocessors, and see that they are optical devices (limited by advances in optical and mechanical engineering) designed to count photons (that have certain spectra).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-frame_digital_SLR


> Production costs for a full-frame sensor can exceed twenty times the costs for an APS-C sensor. Only 20 full-frame sensors will fit on an 8-inch (200 mm) silicon wafer, and yield is comparatively low because the sensor's large area makes it very vulnerable to contaminantsâ€”20 evenly distributed defects could theoretically ruin an entire wafer. Additionally, the full-frame sensor requires three separate exposures during the photolithography stage, tripling the number of masks and exposure processes.



Camera development depends on how photosite technology scales to a smaller size and a smaller readout time per bit of tonal range, and also depends on other electronics (not the microprocessor) and mechanical advances (like the shutter and autofocusing mechanism).


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## sharagim1 (May 13, 2011)

neuroanatomist said:


> sharagim1 said:
> 
> 
> > i just bought canon 5d mark ll today $2499 and it"s brand new,
> ...


i bought it from west camera .after buy 5d mark ll, when i came back to home, the new battery wasn"t charge full(like other new camera) and i just charge a littele bet, ho do i see the shutter count in 5d mark ll?


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## neuroanatomist (May 13, 2011)

sharagim1 said:


> i bought it from west camera .after buy 5d mark ll, when i came back to home, the new battery wasn"t charge full(like other new camera) and i just charge a littele bet, ho do i see the shutter count in 5d mark ll?



The batteries do not come pre-charged. In fact, it would be bad if they did, as storing a Li-ion battery with a full charge for a long period of time (such as on a store shelf) is bad for the battery. But I would think the bettery would still not show a shutter count when you inserted it. It's possible that event though you bought it 'new', it was opened and used in the store.

You can use EOSInfo to see the shutter count.


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## Admin US West (May 13, 2011)

sharagim1 said:


> i bought it from west camera .after buy 5d mark ll, when i came back to home, the new battery wasn"t charge full(like other new camera) and i just charge a littele bet, ho do i see the shutter count in 5d mark ll?



The 5D MK II comes with a battery, did West Camera sell it separately? If it was sold separately, something sounds wrong. 

The camera is able to read the serial number of the battery, and to record the number of shutter actuations between battery recharges. This is how it determines the health of a particular battery.

A battery shutter count as noted would only tell you how many shutter operations that battery has. 

To use the EOS info tool, you must first install the canon software because it uses the drivers from Canon. You cannot get the information from the camera without using this or similar software.

Also be aware, if you put a memory card in a new camera without first formatting it outside the camera, it will start numbering images with whatever number was last used with the card, or, if the internal camera image number is larger, it will use that. Sometimes buyers use a card from their current camera, and see the first image from their new camera has a high number.


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## sharagim1 (May 13, 2011)

no, west camera didn"t sale separte battery and 5d mark ll, they sold me on the box everything together, i google searched for where will be showing shutter count in 5d mark ll, but i found thise camera and another dslr brand (1d old model) doesn"t show the shutter count.
i don"t know this is the right answer or something els


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## Admin US West (May 13, 2011)

sharagim1 said:


> no, west camera didn"t sale separte battery and 5d mark ll, they sold me on the box everything together, i google searched for where will be showing shutter count in 5d mark ll, but i found thise camera and another dslr brand (1d old model) doesn"t show the shutter count.
> i don"t know this is the right answer or something els



The 5D MK II will NOT show the shutter count, none of them do. However, it is recorded internally, and a software program is available free to read the shutter count. Neuro provided a link to it, it is called EOS INFO and it reads information like shutter count not otherwise available. Unforyunately, newer cameras have locked it out, but it works with the 5D MK II just fine.

Here is the link again. http://astrojargon.net/EOSInfo.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

Remember to install the Canon software first.


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## sharagim1 (May 13, 2011)

scalesusa said:


> sharagim1 said:
> 
> 
> > no, west camera didn"t sale separte battery and 5d mark ll, they sold me on the box everything together, i google searched for where will be showing shutter count in 5d mark ll, but i found thise camera and another dslr brand (1d old model) doesn"t show the shutter count.
> ...


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## DJL329 (May 14, 2011)

steven63 said:


> "Computers aren't the same as cameras. Comparing them is like apples and oranges."
> 
> 1. I have to disagree with that statement. Essentially a digital camera IS a computer.
> 
> ...



1. A digital camera *has* a computer inside, but it is *not* a multi-function device, like a 'desktop computer.' It's more comparable to a 'gaming' system (PS, XBox, etc.): a single-function device, which use proprietary hardware and, like cameras, get updated much less frequently.

2. Because computers are general function devices that use _standardized_ hardware and there is a lot of competition. Another reason is that the system vendors (HP, Dell, IBM, etc.) don't have to design and build their own processors: Intel and AMD take care of that, and their head-to-head competition drives design and keeps prices down. Canon and Nikon know that you're not going to take your lenses and mount them on some start-up company's camera, so they don't have to release new cameras as often. Since they're both making lots of money, they have no reason to change. [If all lenses fit on all cameras _without_ an adapter, and all of a sudden a new company came along and started rolling out new cameras on a faster schedule with new features, Canon and Nikon would be forced to change.]

3. Supply and demand. People can sell products (new or used) for whatever the market will bear. If no one was willing to spend that much money for a used camera or lens, the prices would be lower. It also shows the lack of homework that people do, especially when you see someone buy used equipment on places like ebay for close to or even *more* than a new item.


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