# 5DM3 is not doing all I hoped...wanting to upgrade to 1DX



## ideaworx (Jul 30, 2012)

Hey guys, maybe some insight here, maybe a good deal for someone, not sure. I purchased a 5DM3 kit at B&H on March 30, in that time I have been waiting for the mixed accessories to become available, as I typically shoot off a tripod (Using RRS brackets...Not yet available) and use a remote flash (New ST-E3-RT + 600EX's) and have just got to the season where we can do the photography that I purchased the camera for, night time tarpon fishing. We have tested the 5DM3, as it is a marvelous camera for daytime shooting, it is not delivering the results we hoped for, especially in the area of AF and IQ. When shooting at night, ISO is a big factor, and both cameras (based on results I have seen) appear to be the same, but the actual ability for the camera to focus and do it quickly, for what we are shooting, which you have a split second reaction time to capture the moment, is failing. I contacted B&H today, and they were not able to help me, in either a return or exchange, so I am asking here, if anyone has any insight on how I can deal with this (Minus just buying a 1DX on top of what I have already spent). I asked them if they could work with me, as since 3/30 i had spent $23,000 in their shop. They said it had been too long, nothing they could do. I would be more than willing to part with my equipment for a discounted price, so that I can efficiently make the needed upgrade. I am really up against a wall here as I desperately need the right tool for the job. Can anyone shed some light on this doom situation I have? Thanks in advance!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 30, 2012)

FleaBay or Craigslist, or perhaps fredmiranda.com? Basically, sell it at a bit of a loss or keep it as a backup, and buy the 1D X outright.

I was tempted by the 5DIII, but glad I held out for the 1D X.


----------



## ideaworx (Jul 30, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> I was tempted by the 5DIII, but glad I held out for the 1D X.



Delays are what scared me, didnt want to miss the height of the season here, and yeah, I bumped on that decision. :-x


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 30, 2012)

The 1D X will be a little better, but you pay a lot to gain very little. I'd rent one and see if it does the job. The AF is about 90% the same, its faster due to the higher voltage driving the AF motor in the lens, but accuracy is not going to be but just a little better. The camera settings you use can have a big impact on the type of use you are doing.
As to your old one, 3 or 4 months is a long time to hold off on a return. 
Here are a couple of suggestions:
1. Contact Henry Posner of B&H and ask him for help. He is their Goodwill Ambassador and will do anything he can. e-mail henryp[at]bhphoto.com
2. If you used a credit card, contact your credit card company and see if they can help, sometimes there is insurance that allows a return.
3. Contact KEH and Adorama. They will buy it, but you might not like what they offer.
4. Sell on craigslist, Fred Miranda, or eBay.
Note, prices have dropped, so don't expect to get near the new price when selling used. New, they are found for $3200, and as low as $3,000 on ebay.
Realistically, $2700-$2800 on craigslist or $2900 on ebay is the best you can hope for, assuming its in the box with all accessories and no mechanical scratches or damage from salt spray.
Before you sell it, RENT. Otherwise, you may find that you still do not have a solution. Also make sure you are using a fast lens, f/2 or faster is best. There again, a rental might be smart.
Also consider a more powerful strobe. There are much more powerful ones available.


----------



## Kernuak (Jul 30, 2012)

I actually found in some quick tests, that I was able to focus in light so low, that the high ISO was pretty much too noisy to use, which is a first for any camera I've owned, usually the AF falls apart first. While it was only on stationary targets (apart from some slight wind) and darker subjects were a problem due to lack of contrast, I was impressed. It did depend on the AF selection though. I think I was using single point (as opposed to spot or point assist). Light was low enough for me to drop to ISO 25,600 and f/4 @ 1/125th handheld (420mm) and still almost a stop underexposed. It was extremely noisy (so not alot of detail left), but it seemed to be in focus, although it was so dark it was difficult to tell which point of the flowers and grasses I'd focused on. To be honest, I don't know that many (if any?) cameras would be able to focus any better in such low light and few would produce cleaner images (D3s perhaps), so I'd definitely add a voice to renting first. Another possible option would be trade-in, it's worth asking anyway.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jul 30, 2012)

ideaworx said:


> Hey guys, maybe some insight here, maybe a good deal for someone, not sure. I purchased a 5DM3 kit at B&H on March 30, in that time I have been waiting for the mixed accessories to become available, as I typically shoot off a tripod (Using RRS brackets...Not yet available) and use a remote flash (New ST-E3-RT + 600EX's) and have just got to the season where we can do the photography that I purchased the camera for, night time tarpon fishing. We have tested the 5DM3, as it is a marvelous camera for daytime shooting, it is not delivering the results we hoped for, especially in the area of AF and IQ. When shooting at night, ISO is a big factor, and both cameras (based on results I have seen) appear to be the same, but the actual ability for the camera to focus and do it quickly, for what we are shooting, which you have a split second reaction time to capture the moment, is failing. I contacted B&H today, and they were not able to help me, in either a return or exchange, so I am asking here, if anyone has any insight on how I can deal with this (Minus just buying a 1DX on top of what I have already spent). I asked them if they could work with me, as since 3/30 i had spent $23,000 in their shop. They said it had been too long, nothing they could do. I would be more than willing to part with my equipment for a discounted price, so that I can efficiently make the needed upgrade. I am really up against a wall here as I desperately need the right tool for the job. Can anyone shed some light on this doom situation I have? Thanks in advance!



After having used both cameras, I think you'll be disappointed, or not as satisfied as you think you're going to be. The IQ is marginally better, ISO is marginally better, however AF is much better, and of course the fps, spot-linked metering, and weather build. But as for not delivering in IQ, if the 5D3 can't meet your IQ results, I'm afraid the 1DX won't either then. Overall they are two different cameras and people are erroneously purchasing one when they need the other. I shoot weddings and sports. Why not have both? If I only had the sports contract though, I'd still get both because the 5D Mark III is a much better sports backup then even the 1D Mark IV. The 5D3 definitely has an IQ advantage there.


----------



## risc32 (Jul 31, 2012)

i'm picturing you in the dark on a boat with your camera on a tripod trying to focus on a fish in the black water. if that is the case i'm afraid that's just never going to happen. not until they use some other focusing methods at least. B&H and Adorama are awesome, and i don't blame you for trying to return the gear, but at this point that's pretty much insane to think that they should take it back. That ship has long since sailed. I really have no idea what the shooting conditions are like, but you probably just need some lights. I couple Alien Bees einsteins( FWI a shoe mounted flash is about 60Watt seconds for comparison with every doubling of power netting you a "stop")with their lithium power supply cost almost nothing compared to the 23k you dropped on the rest of your gear. if you are in the dark it'll make more of an impact on your photos than whatever camera/lens/etc you're running. 23k=1dx+some flashes+? 
really, this does sound like interesting stuff though. night fishing and photography that is.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 31, 2012)

If available visible light won't work would you consider using an IR converted camera with battery IR source?

You have two issues, close working distance and fast moving subject, not great for low light..

perhaps a hyperfocal situation with IR soucre?

Have you had a camera deliver satisfactory results before?


----------



## ideaworx (Jul 31, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The 1D X will be a little better, but you pay a lot to gain very little. I'd rent one and see if it does the job. The AF is about 90% the same, its faster due to the higher voltage driving the AF motor in the lens, but accuracy is not going to be but just a little better. The camera settings you use can have a big impact on the type of use you are doing.
> As to your old one, 3 or 4 months is a long time to hold off on a return.
> Here are a couple of suggestions:
> 1. Contact Henry Posner of B&H and ask him for help. He is their Goodwill Ambassador and will do anything he can. e-mail henryp[at]bhphoto.com
> ...



Wow, very helpful information, I will reach out to Henry and see what can be done. Credit Card may be a good option as well. As for what I am hoping to get, I would hope for $3850, and would try and do the Camera + 24-105mm Lens Kit it came with and the BG-E11 Battery Grip, 4x Canon LP-E6 Batteries + Canon Charger + Pearstone Dual Charger + B+W Filters for 24-105(clear and uv), which would normally be $4300+$240+$650(mixed)... So $1500+/- savings(just some quick math, probably a bit askewed), and yes the whole unit is clean as can be, did not use any of the extra accessories in the box, I keep all my stuff very very very clean, probably too clean, lol. Preferably, I would like to keep the 5D for the underwater stuff I am doing, so I have a Wet Rig and Dry Rig ready at the drop of a hat. But that will just be a huge chunk to endure, but as I am learning fast in this biz, does not come cheap, nor easy  And on the note of your suggestion of the function of the 1DX, the AF being faster is what is going to make ALL the difference on me getting a shot, and not.



risc32 said:


> i'm picturing you in the dark on a boat with your camera on a tripod trying to focus on a fish in the black water. if that is the case i'm afraid that's just never going to happen. not until they use some other focusing methods at least. B&H and Adorama are awesome, and i don't blame you for trying to return the gear, but at this point that's pretty much insane to think that they should take it back. That ship has long since sailed. I really have no idea what the shooting conditions are like, but you probably just need some lights. I couple Alien Bees einsteins( FWI a shoe mounted flash is about 60Watt seconds for comparison with every doubling of power netting you a "stop")with their lithium power supply cost almost nothing compared to the 23k you dropped on the rest of your gear. if you are in the dark it'll make more of an impact on your photos than whatever camera/lens/etc you're running. 23k=1dx+some flashes+?
> really, this does sound like interesting stuff though. night fishing and photography that is.



LOL, that would be some funny stuff. Actually we are under a bridge, very dark, but in 75% of cases we are shooting into a area that has a very light ambient light coming from the actual bridge. This helps in alot of cases with being able to acquire focus, but not all. For solutions on how to light, I have that down very well actually, it is the few milliseconds of no AF that are killing me. I am trying to do some stuff with AF Lock, basically have the shot pre focused and ready, but that doesnt produce favorable results either. For the lighting I have a CB Junior bracket mounted backwards with a 600ex mounted on the end of the bracket. Strapped on the flash I use a Harbor Designs Flash XTender, which is basically just a Fenrel lens that extends out my light 2 stops. Where I get stuck, which I almost have fixed, is the pre-light for focus. So I looked into getting a SureFire flashlight, that has a attachment available for law enforcement to use for compression lighting. So when I grip the handle, it turns on the Sure Fire enough for me to get AF, and shoot. But as I said above, it is the time for AF to get with the program in some cases. With tests I have seen here and other forums, as well as my own, I am seeing just a much more intelligently focused image with opportunities that have so many moving elements, and when a 150lb fish is jumping, and all those little particles of water are going, I am trying to not miss a single particle of water from being sharp, especially up close on the fish. I have went to the extent of using Gaff tape and my 600ex and hooking it onto a piling to create a more dramatic exposure, and I can assure you one way or the other we are going to nail it, just is timing, when there is fish that bite with when we get our setup perfect, to being pointed in the right direction, haha, like the alignment of the 7 moons of Venus.



Kernuak said:


> I actually found in some quick tests, that I was able to focus in light so low, that the high ISO was pretty much too noisy to use, which is a first for any camera I've owned, usually the AF falls apart first. While it was only on stationary targets (apart from some slight wind) and darker subjects were a problem due to lack of contrast, I was impressed. It did depend on the AF selection though. I think I was using single point (as opposed to spot or point assist). Light was low enough for me to drop to ISO 25,600 and f/4 @ 1/125th handheld (420mm) and still almost a stop underexposed. It was extremely noisy (so not alot of detail left), but it seemed to be in focus, although it was so dark it was difficult to tell which point of the flowers and grasses I'd focused on. To be honest, I don't know that many (if any?) cameras would be able to focus any better in such low light and few would produce cleaner images (D3s perhaps), so I'd definitely add a voice to renting first. Another possible option would be trade-in, it's worth asking anyway.



Thanks for the insight!

And to be flat honest, the review by Andy Rouse of the 1DX, really sold me on the upgrade as well: http://www.andyrouse.co.uk/blog/223.php


----------



## ideaworx (Jul 31, 2012)

paul13walnut5 said:


> If available visible light won't work would you consider using an IR converted camera with battery IR source?
> 
> You have two issues, close working distance and fast moving subject, not great for low light..
> 
> ...



I have not considered a IR Source or any solution like this, have you had any experience with this?

And yes have had wonderful results with the camera so far, just not in this key situation. I love the camera to be honest, but just need to stick to the reasons I got it, to deliver these shots consistently.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 31, 2012)

> Have you had a camera deliver satisfactory results before?



Sorry, I meant more specifically, have you had good results shooting your 'key situation' specialist subject in the past? If so what did you use?

I'm not having a go, just thinking of alternate solutions, you are using some of the finest kit available to man.


----------



## TrumpetPower! (Jul 31, 2012)

ideaworx said:


> (Using RRS brackets...Not yet available)



Huh? I've had my RSS L-bracket for the 5DIII + BG-E11 for weeks, now, maybe over a month, and I had one for the un-gripped 5DIII for at least a few weeks before I got the one plus grip (couldn't wait).

You'll be glad to know that the BG-E11 version is awesome, fits like a glove, and actually makes the vertical grip a bit more comfortable than without. The non-gripped version is decidedly "meh."

Cheers,

b&


----------



## Sycotek (Jul 31, 2012)

Mate, I owned 2x5d3's and now a 1DX - there are massive differences in performance and IQ.

For one there is no rainbow noise in the low isos and 12K on the 5d3 is about the same as 40K on the 1DX (with better looking noise and no rainbow effect)

In good light there is no-competition in the af between 2 bodies - the 5d3 is fast - the 1dx is instant.

There is no slow down in af when in body processing is turned on or the battery levels go below 40% like on the 5D3 - the slow down in having focus priority for servo turns 5 fps to 3 - no hit on fps on the 1dx (3 cpus make sure of that)

The facial tracking and light meter on the 1DX is something else - it truly lives up to its 1Series designation.

I don't care for video so cant give input there.

Now the drawback is there is a bug with the AF on the 1DX (and it may extend to the 5D3) when shooting with the servo in low light - see my post http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=7820.0 which I am working with Canon in isolating. But setting the fps to 10 or lower - fixes 90% of the problem.

I don't own the 5d3's anymore - for Me anything above iso 400 isn't worth using, way too much pattern noise, and 3fps is useless to Me. I will be buying another 1DX shortly if Canon fix this bug.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jul 31, 2012)

Sycotek said:


> Mate, I owned 2x5d3's and now a 1DX - there are massive differences in performance and IQ.
> 
> For one there is no rainbow noise in the low isos and 12K on the 5d3 is about the same as 40K on the 1DX (with better looking noise and no rainbow effect)
> 
> ...



What are you shooting? I don't notice any difference at all in metering or IQ. In fact, the 1DX out of camera looks a bit underexposed to me. Could just be me though, but IQ? No way. You just want to see improvement in IQ, so you see it. It's human nature. Massive differences? What rainbow effect? I've been shooting two 5D Mark III's as well, since April and I have no idea what you are talking about, sorry. ISO noise about 400???? Wow, did you get bad copies?


----------



## Sycotek (Jul 31, 2012)

Fashion, and landscapes basically with the 5D3

When i took them back to the store they could visibly see the banding on the back lcd screen it was that bad. So they refunded them without question.

Some people believe i got bad copies - but I'm not game to buy a 3rd.

Metering is very very accurate on the 1DX - i believed it was 0.5 under each shot but if you look at the target points RBG values its protecting the target from blowing a channel - its rather interesting how they did it. It's not right to my eye but its correct via histo.

The 5D3 is basically identical to the 7D (which to my eye always looked good).

I've owned both so was just giving a little input to someone looking at moving up the series. It may not fall inline with everyones experiences but they are mine


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jul 31, 2012)

Sycotek said:


> Fashion, and landscapes basically with the 5D3
> 
> When i took them back to the store they could visibly see the banding on the back lcd screen it was that bad. So they refunded them without question.
> 
> ...



I agree, if your 5D3's are gone and you have a 1DX, no need at all to have a 5D3 if you don't currently have one. Here's what I'm going to do. For football and track, which are outdoors, I'll shoot with the 1DX and 1D4. For indoor sports, I'll use 1DX and 5D3. No flash allowed anywhere in indoor sports, especially college. And for night football games or night sports outside, I'll probably shoot with the 1DX/5D3 combo again. Also, I can use the 1DX/5D3 combo for weddings. My 1Ds3 is great for ISO 50-400 shots outside, and fantastic for landscapes, but that stuff doesn't make me any money. I'd like to take on senior pictures, which in that case I could use the 1Ds3/5D3 combo. However, I'm not narrow minded enough to believe that the 1DX's 18mp wouldn't be enough vs. the 5D3's 22. Time will only tell and it could very well end up I sell some cameras and get another 1DX or even a newer camera that comes out. I am impressed so far though, with the 5D3's and 1Ds3's color. I did print a few mini-posters and those 21 and 22 mp's came in handy. Sports though, who knows, I could end up having to shoot in jpeg. Canon made too many good cameras


----------



## Sycotek (Jul 31, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> Sycotek said:
> 
> 
> > Fashion, and landscapes basically with the 5D3
> ...



I love the new jpeg engine - shockingly i shoot a fair amount of work in jpeg now more so where there is good light...

esp when im sending images off at 10MP - shoot and upload no real need for processing as the body does a great job.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jul 31, 2012)

That's good to know.


----------



## trentchau (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm curious, why would you think B&H would take it back?

None the less what I'm curious about is what you were using before to do this type of photography.


----------



## ideaworx (Jul 31, 2012)

TrumpetPower! said:


> ideaworx said:
> 
> 
> > (Using RRS brackets...Not yet available)
> ...



I had not been informed it was ready to be honest, I appreciate the update. Pending my decision here, I may end up picking it up. Great to know it fits well, I expect nothing less than that from RRS, great products for sure.


----------



## ideaworx (Jul 31, 2012)

trentchau said:


> I'm curious, why would you think B&H would take it back?
> 
> None the less what I'm curious about is what you were using before to do this type of photography.



I did not expect them too, I was just curious if there was anything that can be done 

I was not doing this type of photography, I shot alot on the water, but it was during the day, and not fish, I used to shoot babes in bikinis (or less) and am just trying to settle into what I really enjoy (and what my wife approves, lol). 

Thanks everyone so far for the feedback, really informative and helpful for sure.

Cheers,

Shane


----------



## trentchau (Jul 31, 2012)

ideaworx said:


> trentchau said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious, why would you think B&H would take it back?
> ...



Heh sounds like you need a specialized camera than. Orsome hot lights for auto focus assist


----------

