# Teardown: The Canon EOS R5 gets an autopsy



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 10, 2020)

> Here we have our first teardown of the Canon EOS R5, and it will give you some idea in how Canon has chosen to control heat. There are a few design choices that I find interesting.
> 
> The thermal pads on the CPU don’t cover the full CPU
> Aluminum was used instead of copper, though there is added cost and complexity of working with copper.
> ...



Continue reading...


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## PGSanta (Aug 10, 2020)

Interesting


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## jolyonralph (Aug 10, 2020)

There are reports that CFExpress cards heat up when in the slot even when not being used. I haven't got an R5 and can't verify this one way or another so perhaps someone who does can reply whether this is true or not.

If not it's just some careless coding by Canon where they're detecting card present for cutoff limits rather than card is set for recording.


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## kten (Aug 10, 2020)

I'd guess aluminium vs copper is far down the chain of limiting factors, conservative measures in firmware prob being much greater, besides that sheet is so thin it would doubtful make as much difference and the TIM type and thickness they use probably has more limiting effect I suspect. Nowhere for the heat to go and is so thin and of negligible mass prob here to stay though as doesn't look like much space. Some Canons have a lot more room behind the sensor and no IBIS and I've seen active cooling mods for astro where a large heatsink/cold finger with or without heatpipes etc depending on space is installed and active cooling applied at some position. Keeps weather sealing if done right but doubt you could do it with IBIS even if had the space.


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## VICYASA (Aug 10, 2020)

Can't wait to hear the pontifications of all you camera designers and developers... the incredible musings of expertise from this short video.


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## miketcool (Aug 10, 2020)

I’m fine with the cutoffs. This isn’t a cinema body. It isn’t an A-Cam or B-Cam body. This is for specialty situations, or for those of us that mix a little video with photo work. I prefer Canon protecting the longevity and reliability of the camera and sensor. I like knowing that this will be the same on every job.


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## kten (Aug 10, 2020)

miketcool said:


> I’m fine with the cutoffs. This isn’t a cinema body. It isn’t an A-Cam or B-Cam body. This is for specialty situations, or for those of us that mix a little video with photo work. I prefer Canon protecting the longevity and reliability of the camera and sensor. I like knowing that this will be the same on every job.


That and ergo of two of my main reasons for choosing and sticking with Canon and I feel most folks probably appreciate their conservative nature. However they [most userbase] are not the ones who make the most noise. Don't get me wrong I do think they [canon] have their faults but the R5 debacle isn't one of them (on the hardware front anyway, you could argue how it was marketed and teased didn't outright cause it but didn't help things).


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## shawn (Aug 10, 2020)

This thing is jam packed with tech. To truly solve the heating issue in this form factor probably requires technological advancement in semiconductors, not much Canon could do by the looks of it. Sure they could engineer something crazy but the issue will be solved in time by the technology itself. Once semiconductors get to 5nm we'll probably see cooler running chips.


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## KeithBreazeal (Aug 10, 2020)

I was wondering where the thermal sensors are. If the CFexpress card is generating substantial heat, maybe pulling the card and cooling it would speed up the recovery time. I would like to see a test that measures the CFexpress card temp when the R5 thermal sensors trigger a shut down.


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## Big_Ant_TV_Media (Aug 10, 2020)

Would adding thermal paste help the camera ?


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 10, 2020)

BigAntTVProductions said:


> Would adding thermal paste help the camera ?



better to add a fan


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## cornieleous (Aug 10, 2020)

I can't get through a single thing from EOSHD. That guy is so full of ego and states his opinions as facts without sufficient logic or substantiation. Having a following doesn't make someone right. He typically makes emotional stabs at anyone in his forum who dares to disagree with him, however civilly they are discussing a matter.

As for making assumptions on the teardown and materials of R5? Are any of these talking heads or random people with angry opinions (because they can't buy a cinema camera for $4000) actually electronics engineers or have ever done a thermal analysis? If so, I expect more rigor than they are presenting. I have plenty of knowledge in this area and will leave it at that, but I'm not here making speculations despite my knowledge. Unless I know the power dissipation of all components in all modes, the thermal resistivity in each material, and run a 3D thermal analysis myself, I know better than to guess. There is no point acting like we know what the problem fully is. Sure, testing might yield some results, but people acting like Canon are idiots are being unfair....The assumption that armchair engineering is better than a dedicated team that cares about the product at Canon is ridiculous.

Regarding calling for legal action because people cannot read a spec sheet? Good luck in court with that weak argument and your 'righteous' anger. Pretty hard to make a legal case when you were told prior to purchase there are limits with the camera video modes, and that other camera activity could also downgrade the recording time.

Yes, if all you care about is a dedicated video camera that does all this incredible footage in a tiny MILC body, it is not for you, grab a Sony and enjoy life and 12MP stills. You are also unrealistic for thinking a full frame high MP camera with IBIS in a weather sealed body would NOT have some heat issues doing all that. As the mirrorless 5D5 this camera delivers incredible stills and light duty video. I'm having a blast with it and already producing great images.

Certain people always focus on the negative and are always victims no matter how much logic is applied.


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## BeenThere (Aug 10, 2020)

Bring on the armchair camera designers.


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## kten (Aug 10, 2020)

BigAntTVProductions said:


> Would adding thermal paste help the camera ?


Not really since all TIM does is increase efficiency of heat transfer vs no interface metal<air>metal where you get a buildup. In this case there is no significant thermal mass to transfer heat into nor space to get something in there.

Adding fan means you need more airflow room and vents in body for intake and exhausts in other words turn it into a cine cam and lose weather sealing. Canon make those already, problem solved. The better solution IMHO at the risk of sounding like Apple is make users realise they are expecting it to be something it isn't. It is a nice optional extra with limits made more severe so as not to harm the longevity or primary functions of niche it is aimed at (a stills cam that has amazing lightweight hybrid vid capabilities. Need primarily heavy lifting vid centric work get something else).


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## Chaitanya (Aug 10, 2020)

Thermal pads(once Canon seems to be using(compared to Hitachi HM03 and other graphite pads) are not a good medium to transfer heat, for low power components like RAM, VRM they are fine for higher power components they literally are $hit compared to decent thermal paste.


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## SteveC (Aug 10, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Regarding calling for legal action because people cannot read a spec sheet? Good luck in court with that weak argument and your 'righteous' anger. Pretty hard to make a legal case when you were told prior to purchase there are limits with the camera video modes, and that other camera activity could also downgrade the recording time.



They were also told it could be used _as a backup camera_. Now maybe it's me but I can't imagine someone grabbing a camera that's been assigned a backup role and then running around and shooting a bunch of stills with it, so even the "it heats up shooting stills" complaint seems a bit off to me even though it's factual, because why would you be shooting stills with your backup camera anyway?

Of course when someone pointed out "backup camera" then the kvetching moved on to needing to footnote it.

These people are determined to whine and bitch about this thing because it is not something that it isn't and was never meant to be.


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## bbasiaga (Aug 10, 2020)

The insides of these things are absolutely astounding to me. Look at how much goes in to it, and how tightly designed every component has to be. Wow. 

Brian


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## genriquez (Aug 10, 2020)

The author of the article plans to go to court if Canon doesn't do a recall.

EOSHD author: "Canon promised us 8k video"
Judge: "Did they warn you about the heat limitations in an official press release?"
EOSHD author: "Yes and I blogged about it. So I bought one and complained to Canon."
Judge: "Did you buy one after you read the press release?"
EOSHD author: "Yes and I tried 8k video and it doesn't work when it's hot. I demand a recall"
Judge: ...

My theory is still that the temperature limit is there to protect the CFexpress card. Even if it's not being recorded to the internal temperature can be enough to corrupt data. There's so much processing going on in this small form factor.


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## Dinami (Aug 10, 2020)

I expected better from you canonrumours. "Why does none of this matter when recording externally?" Because when you record to an atomos for example, its pure HDMI out. The cameras processor is no longer compressing/processing the video for storage. 

Its why the atomos records to prores or whatever other codecs that comes with it. Because it is the EXTERNAL RECORDER DOING THE PROCESSING OF WHATEVER COMES OFF THE SENSOR. I thought this was basic knowledge for anyone intending to use the camera for videography.

Why then does the camera overheat faster with CF cards installed even externally? There could be a bug where the cf card continues to heatup even when not in use, just like how nvme ssds heat up sometimes even when you arent using them with your PCs. I believe canon COULD possibly fix this in firmware? Although im not 100% on whether this is possible since im not an expert. So perhaps Canonrumours could do without spreading misinformation if they dont even know why cameras dont overheat when recording externally?


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## Bert63 (Aug 10, 2020)

I'm calling Noctua.


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## Bert63 (Aug 10, 2020)

genriquez said:


> The author of the article plans to go to court if Canon doesn't do a recall.




He seems to be a bit of a little drama princess.

" So it is very confusing to me why it is on shop shelves marketed as a professional C300 III B-cam! "

I never heard/read anything of the sort.


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## lbeck (Aug 10, 2020)

Imagine when people start using the R5 to take real pictures and video instead of stupid half baked tests with YouTube analysis for the masses.

That'll be the day ...


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## flip314 (Aug 10, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> There is definitely no venting for heat to escape



If there was any venting, the camera would get eviscerated for its lack of weather-proofing...


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## mppix (Aug 10, 2020)

miketcool said:


> I’m fine with the cutoffs. This isn’t a cinema body. It isn’t an A-Cam or B-Cam body. This is for specialty situations, or for those of us that mix a little video with photo work. I prefer Canon protecting the longevity and reliability of the camera and sensor. I like knowing that this will be the same on every job.


Poor/mediocre cooling certainly does not promote longvity.


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## TAF (Aug 10, 2020)

That was fascinating. My guess is that Mod 2 will contain an aluminum plate that sticks through the back under the LCD (weather sealed, of course), with conductive tape to the heat sink at the next layer. That should get more of the internal heat out. You'll just have to leave the LCD deployed to permit better airflow.

Then Canon can come out with the CFcooler(R) Card for the second slot. And actively cooled card that chills the connector to assist in heat removal, as well as cooling the card mounting area. With a new card door so the heat sink can stick out into free air. With a gasket, of course.

After all, no one needs two cards, but having the second slot will be convenient place for the accessory cooling adapter (Canon, $499, in stock in 2022).


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## sanj (Aug 10, 2020)

So many knowledgeable people in this forum. Nice! I learn from you all.


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## marathonman (Aug 10, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I can't get through a single thing from EOSHD. That guy is so full of ego and states his opinions as facts without sufficient logic or substantiation. Having a following doesn't make someone right. He typically makes emotional stabs at anyone in his forum who dares to disagree with him, however civilly they are discussing a matter.
> 
> Certain people always focus on the negative and are always victims no matter how much logic is applied.



Well said.
I can't quite imagine living life in as negative a frame of mind and as permanently indignant as Mr Reid is. Really.
It feels like he believes Canon owe him something because he named his 3rd rate blog after them 

What a time to be alive, with so many great options. If you can't work around the strengths and weaknesses of the R5, then there are many other great options to choose from. And yes, they too have pros and cons that need to be considered.


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## cornieleous (Aug 10, 2020)

Chaitanya said:


> Thermal pads(once Canon seems to be using(compared to Hitachi HM03 and other graphite pads) are not a good medium to transfer heat, for low power components like RAM, VRM they are fine for higher power components they literally are $hit compared to decent thermal paste.



Notice the massive soldermask pads on the circuit board surrounding the Digic? That is likely a copper fill . Do you have information about the processor thermals that we don't? Unless you presume to be performing a full thermal analysis in 3D and about to deliver your detailed conclusions, comparison to your computer processor are useless. All this armchair speculation will go nowhere.


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## mppix (Aug 10, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> He seems to be a bit of a little drama princess.
> 
> " So it is very confusing to me why it is on shop shelves marketed as a professional C300 III B-cam! "
> 
> I never heard/read anything of the sort.








Canon UK on EOS R5: “shoots comfortably on high-end production sets – ideal partner to C300 Mark III” – Why overheating is unintentional – EOSHD.com – Filmmaking Gear and Camera Reviews







www.eoshd.com


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## Bert63 (Aug 10, 2020)

mppix said:


> Canon UK on EOS R5: “shoots comfortably on high-end production sets – ideal partner to C300 Mark III” – Why overheating is unintentional – EOSHD.com – Filmmaking Gear and Camera Reviews
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Never saw the claim until now, and he's still a drama queen. (he got promoted after I read that article)...

" It makes a lot more sense to use the Panasonic S1H or Sony A7S III instead. "

Then by all means, have at it. While you pursue your lawsuit.


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## mppix (Aug 10, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Never saw the claim until now, and he's still a drama queen. (he got promoted after I read that article)...
> 
> " It makes a lot more sense to use the Panasonic S1H or Sony A7S III instead. "
> 
> Then by all means, have at it. While you pursue your lawsuit.


Yes, he is a dramaqueen and I dont see a HW recall or lawsuit happening.
However, I also think Canon underengineered the thermals for whatever reason (partially confirmed by the teardown) and dropped the ball when they led the announcement with video specs.
Just my 2c.


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## NorskHest (Aug 10, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I can't get through a single thing from EOSHD. That guy is so full of ego and states his opinions as facts without sufficient logic or substantiation. Having a following doesn't make someone right. He typically makes emotional stabs at anyone in his forum who dares to disagree with him, however civilly they are discussing a matter.
> 
> As for making assumptions on the teardown and materials of R5? Are any of these talking heads or random people with angry opinions (because they can't buy a cinema camera for $4000) actually electronics engineers or have ever done a thermal analysis? If so, I expect more rigor than they are presenting. I have plenty of knowledge in this area and will leave it at that, but I'm not here making speculations despite my knowledge. Unless I know the power dissipation of all components in all modes, the thermal resistivity in each material, and run a 3D thermal analysis myself, I know better than to guess. There is no point acting like we know what the problem fully is. Sure, testing might yield some results, but people acting like Canon are idiots are being unfair....The assumption that armchair engineering is better than a dedicated team that cares about the product at Canon is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Andrew whines a lot, he thinks he has done wonders for the film world. Maybe back in the day when people were hacking 5d's his blog was relevant but now he is just a human that bitches. Yes I am critical of canon but I also will not being buying canons mirrorless bodies. They will not work for me or probably for humans that do work similiar to what I do so people like me use 1d's and cinema bodies and or a7's. Back to your point of Andrew always whining, I wonder if he actually films or captures anything worth a shit? Yes it is good to have people to go after companies and keep them honest but his R5 bitching is like a breakup gone waaaaay bad, he is soooooooo butt hurt


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## Mike9129 (Aug 10, 2020)

Someone get LTT on this so he can watercool it


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## cornieleous (Aug 10, 2020)

Complete and likely useless speculation here, but:

I am fairly sure CFExpress uses SERDES 8b10b or 128b/130b encoding for AC line balancing. On some SERDES interfaces, idle characters must flow for skew sync and clock recovery which in this case would essentially be running the card when doing nothing. The data rate never changes even when idle and channel bonded. Perhaps there is a reason to stay in this idle mode at all times rather than disable interfaces to the cards completely. Also once hot, the cards are not going to cool just sitting there in a little toaster slot. Anyone an expert at the latest CFExpress application and physical layer? That would be actually a useful discussion since we know the cards in simple tests are part of the issue. In the end, even this will be speculating and just about useless compared to knowing the full details of the engineering compromises Canon was faced with.

A lot of Nikon users on various retailer reviews stated their CFE cards getting HOT in readers even with small transfers. I think CFE may have been necessary for the data rates needed, but a bad choice. Not sure if the SD slot is showing the same issues when doing 4K60 IPB. Mine overheated predictably, but did not seem to warm until placed in the sun and ran at high rate video. I don't even have CFE, readers or GPUs enough for 8K yet. 4K60 will be plenty for my needs. In most cases if I need slow mo, it doesn't have to be 4K or full frame, and I have several other products for that.

I'm fairly confident Canon can improve this situation, even more confident it was not deliberate (deliberate is a 30 minute recording limit). In the meantime, it is _already _a great camera for it's intended use, and the best hybrid on the market.


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## cornieleous (Aug 10, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Andrew whines a lot, he thinks he has done wonders for the film world. Maybe back in the day when people were hacking 5d's his blog was relevant but now he is just a human that bitches. Yes I am critical of canon but I also will not being buying canons mirrorless bodies. They will not work for me or probably for humans that do work similiar to what I do so people like me use 1d's and cinema bodies and or a7's. Back to your point of Andrew always whining, I wonder if he actually films or captures anything worth a shit? Yes it is good to have people to go after companies and keep them honest but his R5 bitching is like a breakup gone waaaaay bad, he is soooooooo butt hurt



Yep and even despite the attitude I am willing to listen if he does produce rigorous results, but right now it seems vindictive and speculative. 

I am totally with everyone frustrated that there is not yet a perfect hybrid, and even with those who think Canon could have put a smarter tone on the advertising, but they never really misled anyone, marketing is always fluff designed to make you feel like the product will make you a better person or artist. The fact that spec sheets and wording were out about the real capabilities prior to purchase tells me people had enough info to realize this is not a reliable video workhorse. Although, when you look at memory card price and an Atomos is cheaper, with better codecs and a monitor, seems that could fix the problem for many who just want the HQ4K modes. Maybe Canon will have a hardware or firmware or both improvement, but the situation is already vastly better for the camera in all uses that when this controversy first started.


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## DBounce (Aug 10, 2020)

miketcool said:


> I’m fine with the cutoffs. This isn’t a cinema body. It isn’t an A-Cam or B-Cam body. This is for specialty situations, or for those of us that mix a little video with photo work. I prefer Canon protecting the longevity and reliability of the camera and sensor. I like knowing that this will be the same on every job.



Do you own the R5?


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## DBounce (Aug 10, 2020)

Speaking from the comfort of my armchair, I can say it’s clearly defective if just scrolling through menus can cause a device to overheat and shut down. Is there any product outside of this where anyone can site this as acceptable behavior? And if no, why is it acceptable here?


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## koch1948 (Aug 10, 2020)

As an EOS 5D Mark IV replacement, I assumed the the EOS R5 would be approximately the same physical size as the EOS 5D Mark IV. However, for some reason Canon engineers chose to make this new camera body more compact. It seems like a larger body would have allowed space for additional heat mitigation design.


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## SteveC (Aug 10, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Speaking from the comfort of my armchair, I can say it’s clearly defective if just scrolling through menus can cause a device to overheat and shut down. Is there any product outside of this where anyone can site this as acceptable behavior? And if no, why is it acceptable here?



I don't think it's doing that though--It's locking you out of high end video, perhaps, but it's hardly turning into a brick.


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## nchoh (Aug 10, 2020)

Chaitanya said:


> Thermal pads(once Canon seems to be using(compared to Hitachi HM03 and other graphite pads) are not a good medium to transfer heat, for low power components like RAM, VRM they are fine for higher power components they literally are $hit compared to decent thermal paste.



And where would the thermal paste transfer the heat to??? It basically boils down to... if you don't or can't vent the camera, then you it doesn't matter how much or how good your thermal paste is.


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## skid (Aug 10, 2020)

Hi all, just got account approved and want to share some more information after dig into the shared video.

On the reply section of the shared video's original site, there's a link posted by the uploader which links to their taobao site (very large chinese site for e-shops, similar to alibaba but more reliable and focus more on individual needs). The link, are offering hardware upgrading service for r5's cooling ability for 500CNY, and the service will begin in mid August.

I not promoting their business, but this got my attention and found more information about this guy and what are they saying on chinese geeks site.

Again, I don't recommend doing the same thing, which might break your warranty, but you might find it interesting:

I found their discussion on this site: https://forum.xitek.com/thread-1894934-1-1-1.html about R5's hardware with overheating issue. The poster ( not the shared video uploader) saying that" it looks like a PCB is covering the CPU which does not help with heat rejection. The metal plate for heat rejection is designed between the mother board and CMOS. Only a small pice of paste is used between CPU and the metal plate which doesn't help that much." ALSO, " the guy (video's uploader) added a grease pad between the plate and CPU, made it absorbing the heat more evenly and helped a lot. Just by doing that, (In a different video) the R5 was able to record 8K for 15 minutes(without overheating sign), turned off, and let the camera to take a 10 minutes break. Then was able to record 8K, until the card is filled (512GB, 27minutes of recording --- found it on the post below)." Here's the uploader's original post btw: https://tieba.baidu.com/p/6848700307?pn=1

their conclusion: " - just simply adding the grease pad does help a lot.
-Might be better by using copper plate instead of aluminum for where the CPU is covering.
- CPU was around 40 ℃, which creates more heat than CF express card.
- the firmware is limiting the device. (since, after he added that pad. He was able to record longer 8K footage, but still overheat eventually. But after overheating, he left R5 under AC that R5's body is REALLY REALLY cold and still, he could only got 5 minutes of 8K or 10 minutes of 4K. "

that's pretty much what I got from the uploader's posts. Hope it could help or just ....entertain you a bit?

Oh, btw, they also found one cooling module originally designed for smartphone works very well on R5's back. One got an hour of 4K60 without overheating sign, and the body was still touch cold. Remember that fan module on the form a few days ago? That helps.


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## nchoh (Aug 10, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> As an EOS 5D Mark IV replacement, I assumed the the EOS R5 would be approximately the same physical size as the EOS 5D Mark IV. However, for some reason Canon engineers chose to make this new camera body more compact. It seems like a larger body would have allowed space for additional heat mitigation design.



Given that the thermal mass of air is not a lot, without any venting, more space would only mean a slightly longer time for the camera to heat up.


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## SteveC (Aug 10, 2020)

nchoh said:


> And where would the thermal paste transfer the heat to??? It basically boils down to... if you don't or can't vent the camera, then you it doesn't matter how much or how good your thermal paste is.



It might, though, if the issue is that whatever part it is that is at issue can't even lose heat to the rest of the camera without it--in other words, if it cannot even access the heat sink that is inside the camera with it.


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## Hector1970 (Aug 10, 2020)

Hopefully Canon can get the overheating issue fixed. You'd get sick of listening about it. 
I have a 1DXIII and the CF Express card hasn't overheated but I haven't done video with it.
It obviously has a much bigger body to dissipate heat
But in the Card Reader its gets red hot. It's metal and seems to heat up an awful lot.
I wonder would it be cooler if it the card was more plasticy. 
I wonder about the longevity of CF Express cards.
It will be interesting if its just a software fix or whether they make a hardware fix.


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## nchoh (Aug 10, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Speaking from the comfort of my armchair, I can say it’s clearly defective if just scrolling through menus can cause a device to overheat and shut down. Is there any product outside of this where anyone can site this as acceptable behavior? And if no, why is it acceptable here?


Which Sony camera are you speaking of?


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## Aaron D (Aug 10, 2020)

This is a tangent, but what does an 8K camera cost that _doesn't_ overheat? I really don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised at 5 digits. So add an Atomos or maybe buy a couple R5's (so one could be cooling while you're filming with the other) and I bet you're still ahead.

Yeah I know I should do my homework before posting.


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## Glfrost (Aug 10, 2020)

There is a possibility that additional thermal attention on Processor may have been helpful, but the heat issue is from the CF Express card and a known issue. Comparing design of 1 DX Mk3 May be helpful for future.


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## Vertex Imagery (Aug 10, 2020)

In 2018, did Apple fix overheating issues in a MacBook with a firmware update caused by a faulty thermal sensor?


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## nchoh (Aug 10, 2020)

Glfrost said:


> There is a possibility that additional thermal attention on Processor may have been helpful, but the heat issue is from the CF Express card and a known issue. Comparing design of 1 DX Mk3 May be helpful for future.



I believe that the heating issue is only speculative and if is true only contributes to main heating issue which is the heat generated by the CPU. In short, when the CF Express card is bypassed, the CPU doesn't have to work as hard to crunch the numbers required by CFE, so it can run longer without overheating.


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## nchoh (Aug 10, 2020)

Glfrost said:


> There is a possibility that additional thermal attention on Processor may have been helpful, but the heat issue is from the CF Express card and a known issue. Comparing design of 1 DX Mk3 May be helpful for future.


The 1DX Mk3 is only a 20 MP camera, so the CPU only has half as many pixels to process. Sony does a nice little trick which is to create the A7S3 with only 12 MP, so that there is no additional pixel processing needed which lowers the heat generated even more.


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## arthurbikemad (Aug 10, 2020)

I'm gonna use a chilled cucumber, I think there is room, my plan is to open up the flux chamber and wedge the cucumber between that and the digicdudarthingymajig, this way the cucumber will soak up all the heat and I can remove and rinse later. No problem, well small problem, ain't got me pre order yet, balls to you Canon, wtf is taking so long, how am I going to be able to blog the crap out of this thing in the English winter, I mean it's never gonna overheat is it!

No I'm just kidding, but, on a serious note, I've never seen so much BS online about a camera ever, all these high end wedding togs moaning about this and that, heat warnings and so on, half of them didn't even know the effects of the shutter mode they use on gear they already own but have concerns about shit they will certainly never use, 8k being one of them, plus they fail to see that some of the R5 issues they raise are already in the camera they have been using for the last two years hahaha, kills me, it just goes to prove ignorance is bliss.

What also tickles me is these highend photographers seem to be on a budget too, not only do they not want to shell out a few grand on an R5 and suck it and see but they also can't afford to splash out on a dedicated video camera to shoot these high end wedding movies that are SOO much the norm these days, and in bloody 8k too, then they go on to say, well, I shoot maybe 1200 shots a gig and give 1199 to the customer, damm these guys are good, and all on a 1200D for 279.99.



Oh and one more thing, I tried to put minds at rest, with my well informed knowledge (Canonrumors.com) but they just call me a liar, or more to the point Canon a liar, I like to think you can't argue with drunk people no more than you can ignorance haha Personally I think the camera is performing exactly as documented.


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## nchoh (Aug 10, 2020)

SteveC said:


> It might, though, if the issue is that whatever part it is that is at issue can't even lose heat to the rest of the camera without it--in other words, if it cannot even access the heat sink that is inside the camera with it.


And where would the heat sink vent to? If the camera is sealed, then the heat still stays in the camera. The heat sink can spread the heat around inside the camera body, but that only gets you so far before the entire of the inside reaches the same critical temperature. That the R5 is already so cramped, means that there is not a lot of space for the heat sink to work anyways.

Looking a bit further... you will notice that there isn't much space behind the sensor. There is that aluminum plate that is blocking (?) the heat to the sensor. If the heat were to be vented in front of the senor, then it would end up in the lens.Long story short; there isn't a lot of space to disperse the heat to, so really a fancy solution like thermal paste to conduct heat to a heat sink would be an expensive was of effort.

BTW, thermal paste is used to ensure heat connectivity between the CPU and the heat sink. Since a heat sink would be fairly useless, then thermal paste is moot. Some have mentioned seeing huge copper pads used a heat sinks which makes way more sense.


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## genriquez (Aug 10, 2020)

BigAntTVProductions said:


> Would adding thermal paste help the camera ?



I'm not sure how it works with cameras, but my gaming laptop needs to be repasted at least once every year.


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## SteveC (Aug 10, 2020)

nchoh said:


> And where would the heat sink vent to? If the camera is sealed, then the heat still stays in the camera. The heat sink can spread the heat around inside the camera body, but that only gets you so far before the entire of the inside reaches the same critical temperature. That the R5 is already so cramped, means that there is not a lot of space for the heat sink to work anyways.



Yes, I understand that, but some heatsink is better than no heat sink at all.


----------



## kten (Aug 10, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> This is a tangent, but what does an 8K camera cost that _doesn't_ overheat? I really don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised at 5 digits. So add an Atomos or maybe buy a couple R5's (so one could be cooling while you're filming with the other) and I bet you're still ahead.
> 
> Yeah I know I should do my homework before posting.


there are cheap options such as Z CAM E2 F8 which is nowhere near likes of RED Monstro sensor cams so you can get for significantly under 5 digits for the camera. However once you add on all the plates/handles/cage bits, batteries, monitors, storage, matte box, sound hardware and so on it adds up to silly money regardless. Most who need 8K on tap no matter if cam is coming from cold off state or has been used etc will be using such cameras and have all that stuff and the price is normal and factored in to budgets thus this is blown out of proportion as R5 isn't designed for use on set.

The R5 8K is more of an optional thrown in on top of the real bread and butter stills and low level video (think wedding guys or vloggers or whatever), just a gimmick and not really aimed at people who need it generally. A nice extra but not really core feature and if they left it out the marketing pitch no-one could have complained really. Most who need it won't be using such a camera [r5] on jobs that require "just works" 8K. Even if the r5 did it without overheating they'd still pale in comparisson on dedicated cine cam features and accessory concerns, battery and how it fits into workflow on so on.


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## AlP (Aug 10, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> Complete and likely useless speculation here, but:
> 
> I am fairly sure CFExpress uses SERDES 8b10b or 128b/130b encoding for AC line balancing. On some SERDES interfaces, idle characters must flow for skew sync and clock recovery which in this case would essentially be running the card when doing nothing. The data rate never changes even when idle and channel bonded. Perhaps there is a reason to stay in this idle mode at all times rather than disable interfaces to the cards completely. Also once hot, the cards are not going to cool just sitting there in a little toaster slot. Anyone an expert at the latest CFExpress application and physical layer? That would be actually a useful discussion since we know the cards in simple tests are part of the issue. In the end, even this will be speculating and just about useless compared to knowing the full details of the engineering compromises Canon was faced with.
> 
> ...



Likely 128b/130b as CFExpress uses a PCIe 3.0 bus. But as I am not working on PCIe bus implementations I can't answer about the idle mode part.

Anyway, maybe I should sue detergent companies because after using their detergent nothing looks as polished as in their ads...
Seriously, going to court because a product is within its specifications?

There are two common themes on those sites:

1. "What all EOS R5 owners have in common is that they have paid a lot of money for a professional video tool" (citing EOSHD)
2. Canon should have learnt from XY/used method XZ in order to properly design the camera

That is equivalent to saying Canon doesn't know the target audience of its products and that they don't have the engineering capabilities to design the product in a different way. Nonsense. Apart from overestimating the importance of one's own field (all R5 owners? seriously?)
The R5 is a stills camera first even im Canon marketing might initially have suggested that it has a different focus by pointing out capabilities no other hybrid camera has (it's marketing after all).

And after having received my R5 I can confirm that it is a formidable tool for photography (didn't test the video modes as I don't really care that much about video), even after the limited time I was able to use it. This is a no-compromise stills camera, and a massive upgrade from the EOS R (and the 5D4 as well)

And to go back to the teardown: It's packed with electronics, just compare the inside of the R5 to the sparsely populated circuit board of the EOS R, who is about the same size and had to deal with a lot less data and functionality. And, in my opinion, not having any heat spreading parts (the aluminum plates are shields, they would be ineffective as heat conductors) was likely a design choice. A 5-10 mm thicker camera weighing 100 g more would likely have had enough space for such parts, but that would not have been a good choice for a photo-oriented camera. It would have been in S1H territory, and I think Canon knows very well which is the larger market.
And, it could still be that Canon has been conservative with the firmware, or hasn't yet optimised it fully. 
We'll see, in the meantime I will continue taking pictures while others complain.


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## nchoh (Aug 10, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Yes, I understand that, but some heatsink is better than no heat sink at all.


 Please look at my original reply and the comment that prompted it.

I did not say that there shouldn't be a heat sink. I asked where would thermal paste transmit heat to. In such a small enclosure, there are other ways of dissipating heat. As mentioned by someone, there are some copper pads attached to the CPU. A heat sink that would use thermal paste would be too big for the camera.


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## tcphoto (Aug 10, 2020)

Wasn't it Peter McKinnon that took apart his 1DxIII...how many others will follow?


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## marathonman (Aug 10, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Bring on the armchair camera designers.



It's almost like you see the future ;-)


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## kten (Aug 10, 2020)

AlP said:


> Likely 128b/130b as CFExpress uses a PCIe 3.0 bus. But as I am not working on PCIe bus implementations I can't answer about the idle mode part.
> 
> Anyway, maybe I should sue detergent companies because after using their detergent nothing looks as polished as in their ads...
> Seriously, going to court because a product is within its specifications?
> ...


I'd argue it does low level video, the very niche hybrids are aimed at, just as well as stills from the testing and content made on it I've seen (don't own R5 yet and happy with R for now). If most demanding thing you're doing is stuff like freelance ad spots kind of video then the R5 is more than enough camera and will work for you until the cows come home IMHO. People like Jeff Cronenweth are not shopping for R5's for use in work anytime soon which is the way the youtube influencer crowd act. The youtube drama drives clicks which is the real reason for the outrage. All the traffic and ad money along with competitors pay some of those influencers, or at least they don't want to bite the hand that feeds and would rather keep their sponsors sweet is real motivation behind this I suspect. Lets face it their business is youtube clicks and gaming the algorithm and knowing how to capture and grow an audience of consumers, they are not experts in the theme of their channels generally. Comp guy channels have very low knowledge compared to industry folks, vid and photo channel guys have lower ability than high production value set folks and so on generally, same for all the other niches but consumers are their market NOT really experts in those fields who generally don't take advice from youtube folks but rather from within their industry.


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## Able (Aug 10, 2020)

skid said:


> Hi all, just got account approved and want to share some more information after dig into the shared video.
> 
> On the reply section of the shared video's original site, there's a link posted by the uploader which links to their taobao site (very large chinese site for e-shops, similar to alibaba but more reliable and focus more on individual needs). The link, are offering hardware upgrading service for r5's cooling ability for 500CNY, and the service will begin in mid August.
> 
> ...


 Solid first post. Well researched and informed. Well worth the read if anyone skimmed over it


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## Mackman (Aug 10, 2020)

One thing I haven’t heard discussed is the operating temp for the cfexprsss card. It’s only up to 70 degrees c. SD card is 85 degrees c. That means the camera must shut down earlier to avoid possible data loss if a cf express card is installed. Remove the card and it probably had a much higher operating limit. And the rate you dissipate heat is proportional to the temperate difference between the object and the environment. Which means without the card it can get hotter and thus shed heat faster likely at a rate equal to the heat generated while recording. Hence the unlimited recording time without the card installed.


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## VICYASA (Aug 10, 2020)

Why not put one of those cold thingies you put in the freezer that your wife gives you after she punches you in the face, emasculating and castrating you of your self worth, inside the camera? Like a mini one that stays cold forever and ever.


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## DBounce (Aug 10, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I don't think it's doing that though--It's locking you out of high end video, perhaps, but it's hardly turning into a brick.


This camera is purposely crippled to segment it from the cinema line. It’s not a limitation of the hardware, it’s a choice to protect the cinema line. I’m not sure why anyone skills be ok with that. Especially when Canon marketed this camera as a pro video tool that could be used along side the C300 Mk3.


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## olympus593 (Aug 10, 2020)

Let the moddings begin!


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## cornieleous (Aug 10, 2020)

DBounce said:


> This camera is purposely crippled to segment it from the cinema line. It’s not a limitation of the hardware, it’s a choice to protect the cinema line. I’m not sure why anyone skills be ok with that. Especially when Canon marketed this camera as a pro video tool that could be used along side the C300 Mk3.


Broken record is broken. We get it, cripple hammer, canon is *******, this camera is unusable. I'll let you finish this list, I'm going to go take stills with my R5 and sell some more prints.


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## londonxt (Aug 10, 2020)

Can I have it after?


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## nchoh (Aug 10, 2020)

Able said:


> Solid first post. Well researched and informed. Well worth the read if anyone skimmed over it


So, in the video, modders are using a metal separator as a heat sink. That means that the heat of from the CPU will transfer over to the sensor. I wonder if that will impact the life of the sensor and essentially the camera.


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## nchoh (Aug 11, 2020)

DBounce said:


> This camera is purposely crippled to segment it from the cinema line. It’s not a limitation of the hardware, it’s a choice to protect the cinema line. I’m not sure why anyone skills be ok with that. Especially when Canon marketed this camera as a pro video tool that could be used along side the C300 Mk3.


Really?

Imagine if Canon put in a perfect heat sink. Then all the heat generated in the CPU would be thrown against all the boards, connectors and components in the vicinity. The R5 would be able to records hours and hours of video, but
then we would see a problem of R5s failing after extended video recording use. Based on the design considerations, I don't think that Canon purposely crippled the camera. It's a stills camera first and foremost. If you want a long recording video look at the video cameras that are on the market from Canon and Sony. OMG, they are bigger for heat dissipation. Duh!!


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 11, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Yes, I understand that, but some heatsink is better than no heat sink at all.


Actually @SteveC in this case I think no heatsink is better. 

Increasing the surface area by using a heatsink is helpful to pull the heat away from the heat source but if that heat is trapped in the body it will just add to the time required to cool the system after it has been heat soaked.


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## SteveC (Aug 11, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Actually @SteveC in this case I think no heatsink is better.
> 
> Increasing the surface area by using a heatsink is helpful to pull the heat away from the heat source but if that heat is trapped in the body it will just add to the time required to cool the system after it has been heat soaked.



So you'd rather leave the heat entirely within the component that is probably the one that imposes the limit? How will you cool that component off (or let it cool down) in any kind of timely fashion if there's nowhere for its heat to go to? (Interestingly, that reminds me of what we have right now--a camera that claims to be overheated but doesn't feel very warm to the touch, and then takes forever to cool off.)

At least the body of the camera (which is most likely the heatsink in question) does have a surface on the outside.


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## nchoh (Aug 11, 2020)

SteveC said:


> So you'd rather leave the heat entirely within the component that is probably the one that imposes the limit? How will you cool that component off (or let it cool down) in any kind of timely fashion if there's nowhere for its heat to go to? (Interestingly, that reminds me of what we have right now--a camera that claims to be overheated but doesn't feel very warm to the touch, and then takes forever to cool off.)
> 
> At least the body of the camera (which is most likely the heatsink in question) does have a surface on the outside.



What are your design considerations? Magnesium alloy body. Weather sealed.
If you are designing with the above 2 considerations, then you know that without any specifically designated way of removing heat from the camera, it will take a lot of time for the heat to slowly dissipate through the camera body.

The next question to ask is, how much heat is being generated and how how do you want the heat to be dissipated? If you use less than the whole body to dissipate the heat and the amount of heat is significant, you will have a part of the camera that is really hot. Hot enough to burn your hands. 

So if the rate of heat generation is greater than the rate of heat dissipation, you will have an issue of over heating.

As mentioned by Ramage, if you spread the heat around in the camera, then the cooling down time will be longer, all things being equal.


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## Jonathan Thill (Aug 11, 2020)

SteveC said:


> So you'd rather leave the heat entirely within the component that is probably the one that imposes the limit? How will you cool that component off (or let it cool down) in any kind of timely fashion if there's nowhere for its heat to go to? (Interestingly, that reminds me of what we have right now--a camera that claims to be overheated but doesn't feel very warm to the touch, and then takes forever to cool off.)
> 
> At least the body of the camera (which is most likely the heatsink in question) does have a surface on the outside.


If it was up to me (which it is not) I would rather there was no mode that pushed the Camera to its thermal limit so no overheating was observed. Canon would be called out for not pushing the tech forward and the same people (Not including you in this) that appear to be outraged about documented limits will be outraged that Canon is protecting its cinema line. 

My educated guess is Canon is going to address the long cool off times, but leave the current limits pretty much as is. They know what the thermal limits of the components are and are likely not willing compromise them.

I am sure Canon went to great lengths in EVT, DVT and PVT to ensure the hardware was working as expected. Canon made a big mistake in allowing the Camera to hit thermal limits, I think they looked at how MOST peolpe use the Camera and thought people would be happy.

If I had a dollar for every Youtuber that did an overheating test by running the Camera till it overheated I would own 2 R5's


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## dominic_siu (Aug 11, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> There are reports that CFExpress cards heat up when in the slot even when not being used. I haven't got an R5 and can't verify this one way or another so perhaps someone who does can reply whether this is true or not.
> 
> If not it's just some careless coding by Canon where they're detecting card present for cutoff limits rather than card is set for recording.


I tried shooting some 4K120fps footage and the CFExpress card heat up substantially.


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## Otara (Aug 11, 2020)

My understanding is that some pads are just as good these days, if not being changed a lot. We're also not talking laptops or desktops, but something intended to be far more rugged.

Fascinating to see how quickly 'overclocking' is turning up, time will tell how much room there is for it, and what price might be paid for doing it.


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## nchoh (Aug 11, 2020)

dominic_siu said:


> I tried shooting some 4K120fps footage and the CFExpress card heat up substantially.



I am curious as in the video, the CFE slot is on the same board and very close to the CPU. This might be causing the CFE card to heat up.


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## DBounce (Aug 11, 2020)

nchoh said:


> Really?
> 
> Imagine if Canon put in a perfect heat sink. Then all the heat generated in the CPU would be thrown against all the boards, connectors and components in the vicinity. The R5 would be able to records hours and hours of video, but
> then we would see a problem of R5s failing after extended video recording use. Based on the design considerations, I don't think that Canon purposely crippled the camera. It's a stills camera first and foremost. If you want a long recording video look at the video cameras that are on the market from Canon and Sony. OMG, they are bigger for heat dissipation. Duh!!



I honestly don’t believe that overheating has anything to do with this. I think it’s merely a deliberate crippling. With no memory card the camera does not overheat. It can run for hours. It can output 4K HQ for hours. Worst still I think Canon could enable 8K raw output on the R5... the HDMI port can support 8K @30p. Canon just choose not to.
We know Canon deliberately cripples cameras.... Who can forget the missing 24p debacle? Or the missing log? I’m not sure why so many are acting like the idea of Canon deliberately crippling a camera is preposterous?


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## SecureGSM (Aug 11, 2020)

DBounce said:


> I honestly don’t believe that overheating has anything to do with this. I think it’s merely a deliberate crippling. With no memory card the camera does not overheat. It can run for hours. It can output 4K HQ for hours. Worst still I think Canon could enable 8K raw output on the R5... the HDMI port can support 8K @30p. Canon just choose not to.
> We know Canon deliberately cripples cameras.... Who can forget the missing 24p debacle? Or the missing log? I’m not sure why so many are acting like the idea of Canon deliberately crippling a camera is preposterous?


You forgot to mention missing fan, XLRs and inbuilt ND filters... Canon is horrible. We know that. Now... why are you still wasting your time posting on a Canon forum?


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## marathonman (Aug 11, 2020)

DBounce said:


> This camera is purposely crippled to segment it from the cinema line. It’s not a limitation of the hardware, it’s a choice to protect the cinema line. I’m not sure why anyone skills be ok with that. Especially when Canon marketed this camera as a pro video tool that could be used along side the C300 Mk3.



Breathe. Repeat after me.
"When there's motion, you can't tell".....


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## vjlex (Aug 11, 2020)

An interesting observation was made in the thread created before this one:


mkamelg said:


> After pausing at 01:58 and using Google Translate from the smartphone level, I learned that the EVF installed in this Canon camera model is the Sony ECX339A https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201805/18-049E/


According to specs for the EVF, it's actually capable of 240 fps.


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## analoggrotto (Aug 11, 2020)

vjlex said:


> An interesting observation was made in the thread created before this one:
> 
> According to specs for the EVF, it's actually capable of 240 fps.


Canon was fast with THAT cripple hamper


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## SecureGSM (Aug 11, 2020)

vjlex said:


> An interesting observation was made in the thread created before this one:
> 
> According to specs for the EVF, it's actually capable of 240 fps.


CR0:: R1 will have a 240 fps EVF mode option.


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## Otara (Aug 11, 2020)

DBounce said:


> I honestly don’t believe that overheating has anything to do with this. I think it’s merely a deliberate crippling. With no memory card the camera does not overheat. It can run for hours. It can output 4K HQ for hours. Worst still I think Canon could enable 8K raw output on the R5... the HDMI port can support 8K @30p. Canon just choose not to.
> We know Canon deliberately cripples cameras.... Who can forget the missing 24p debacle? Or the missing log? I’m not sure why so many are acting like the idea of Canon deliberately crippling a camera is preposterous?



Similar reason to why so many are sure of it, just the flip side. 

If limiting it was the primary goal, it seems like quite the oversight to allow unlimited external recording. Not to mention even making 8K RAW available in the first place.


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## marathonman (Aug 11, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> Canon was fast with THAT cripple hamper



I love hampers.
Maybe it was to protect it from overheating and frying your eyes ;-)


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## flip314 (Aug 11, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> Canon was fast with THAT cripple hamper



There's a difference between what the display may support and what the camera can actually drive... It's not enough that the display can refresh at 240fps, you have to be able to sample the sensor that often and process/push pixels to the display


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## lightingb (Aug 11, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Speaking from the comfort of my armchair, I can say it’s clearly defective if just scrolling through menus can cause a device to overheat and shut down. Is there any product outside of this where anyone can site this as acceptable behavior? And if no, why is it acceptable here?


I can confirm this. I went thr2the menus a few hours to look at all the settings. In the end the record time (high modes) had zero 0:00 recording time left.


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## Cryhavoc (Aug 11, 2020)

Chaitanya said:


> Thermal pads(once Canon seems to be using(compared to Hitachi HM03 and other graphite pads) are not a good medium to transfer heat, for low power components like RAM, VRM they are fine for higher power components they literally are $hit compared to decent thermal paste.



True but thermal paste can dry and loose its transfer ability over time. Not good to build in a maintenance item that would require a trip to the service facility in 5 years. High content silver paste requires many heat/cool down cycles before it becomes most effective. Head pads are the least invasive method to allow a good contact medium inside a camera.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 11, 2020)

I don't have any issue with the record limits. I am disappointed that shooting stills can impact that limit significantly. I doubt I would shoot more than 5 minutes of video at any one time, but if you give me an 8K record facility which I can't use once I've been shooting stills for a couple of hours, then yes, I am disappointed at that.

If it then takes tens of minutes to cool down before I could use any video, well then for wildlife, you've likely lost that opportunity.

Mine arrives today. Yes I ordered it knowing these limits. I just find it out of character for Canon on the stills to video impact, and hope they can adjust through firmware that a little bit, so I can just use the 8K video after shooting stills, and the cool-down period is reduced... And yes, I will test it to see where the truth is. I would be more than happy to come back here and report I can still do both.

Could a vent not be weather sealed, if you only had to use it to cool down the camera, and at all other times it was sealed. Are not the ports on the camera the same situation? Could a vent not take a similar approach (open it if conditions allow, else shoot till hot, then vent briefly)? It would not help with the heat build up, but maybe Canon decided the body is ok to dissipate some heat, but too much and you'd likely impact stills shooters holding it all day?

Re CFExpress - based on a Delkin Engineering PDF I posted a link to in another thread here, their cards support power management, but not clear if everyone (anyone?) implements this - which could explain why idle in a PC or R5 is still generates heat. You could power down at the link (PHY) if you are ok to accept a small delay when you need to write to it (for stills I guess that might reduce the number of shots you can shoot before the buffer fills).

Also the Delkin cards have power modes (4). The default does not throttle I/O, there is a "Light" mode but alas no details as to whether this would maintain the 325MBps required for the higher video modes.

The Delikin has a temp sensor on the card and will throttle i/o itself, so the card will protect itself.

HDMI is uncompressed. The HQ modes over HDMI to the Atomos still do downsampling from higher resolutions and thus require Digic.

Internal use H264 or H265 which requires HW support to do it in real time. Interestingly, the H265 doesnt appear to change that heat envelope much (8 bit is 264, 10bit 265 and those modes don't seem to change the record times much), so well done Canon, your Digic implementation is very good. 

By the time you have the Ninja, the additional batteries, the cables, the cage, the SSD card, probably another 700-800 bucks onto the total. Not a dealbreaker for some, but a bit cumbersome if you just want to take small clips and otherwise continue to take stills (and more weight consideration if you are flying).

The Atomos Ninja cannot support 8K nor likely 4K120 - neither the Canon nor Ninja have HDMI 2.1, so that's internal or nothing. There is an 8K modules coming for their Neon range.


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## Cochese (Aug 11, 2020)

I don't honestly think it would have bothered a single person if they had made the body of the camera like, 1/8 an inch bigger allowing for a larger heatsink, possibly allowing longer run times.


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## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> There are reports that CFExpress cards heat up when in the slot even when not being used. I haven't got an R5 and can't verify this one way or another so perhaps someone who does can reply whether this is true or not.
> 
> If not it's just some careless coding by Canon where they're detecting card present for cutoff limits rather than card is set for recording.


CFexpress cards, SD cards all get extremely hot. Even in a card reader. CFexpress cards and SD cards do not have a sleep mode. This is why electronic equipment with card readers and memory devices have FANS. Heat disipation. Canon and Sony have both repeatedly said this. I don't know why people continuosly expect engineering miracles.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> I don't have any issue with the record limits. I am disappointed that shooting stills can impact that limit significantly. I doubt I would shoot more than 5 minutes of video at any one time, but if you give me an 8K record facility which I can't use once I've been shooting stills for a couple of hours, then yes, I am disappointed at that.
> 
> If it then takes tens of minutes to cool down before I could use any video, well then for wildlife, you've likely lost that opportunity.
> 
> ...


Every single CFexpress card and SD card I've ever had has always gotten hot. Along with the card readers. Nothing new. Pay close attention to your operating limits 32 - 104 F. Once the device reaches 104 F a cool down timer is initialized. My suggestion if you're going to do long recording is to measure your R5 temp with the LCD open with a FLIR or infrared thermometeras some are begining to do. Don't wait until you get an alert. By that time you're probably at 95 F. You can't use your hand as a thermometer as some have done.


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

Someone in another CR article mentioned that the online Owner's Manual no longer has the table listing how long it's expected to record due to heat issues. Maybe this is a sign the firmware fix is coming out very soon...


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## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

KeithBreazeal said:


> I was wondering where the thermal sensors are. If the CFexpress card is generating substantial heat, maybe pulling the card and cooling it would speed up the recovery time. I would like to see a test that measures the CFexpress card temp when the R5 thermal sensors trigger a shut down.


It's already been done. And guess what, the CFexpress card was 103.6 or 104 F. The exact operating limit of the device. It has already been noted that the cards get hot. I suppose that's why Canon suggest using a fan if attempting to do continuous long recording.


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## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Someone in another CR article mentioned that the online Owner's Manual no longer has the table listing how long it's expected to record due to heat issues. Maybe this is a sign the firmware fix is coming out very soon...


The recording limits are in the manual still. And the operating temperature also. The operating temperature limit is 104 F. The device can get well over that temperature. And the Cards have already been measured reaching at least 104 F in an couple of online Youtube videos already. At one time Dan Watson measured both Canon and Sony cameras reaching well over 129 F in the sunlight however. Still thats way over the operating limits without a Fan. I've ordered 2 IC fansink cooling fans for mine. I will do some measurements with a FLUKE IR thermal imaging device to determine precisely the temps before the alert comes on and what temperature it comes on.


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

jam05 said:


> The recording limits are in the manual still. And the operating temperature also. The operating temperature limit is 104 F. The device can get well over that temperature. And the Cards have already been measured reaching at least 104 F in an couple of online Youtube videos already. At one time Dan Watson measured both Canon and Sony cameras reaching well over 129 F in the sunlight however. Still thats way over the operating limits without a Fan. I've ordered 2 IC fansink cooling fans for mine. I will do some measurements with a FLUKE IR thermal imaging device to determine precisely the temps before the alert comes on and what temperature it comes on.



that's not what I am talking about. the table similar to this DPR table is what is now gone:


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## analoggrotto (Aug 11, 2020)

marathonman said:


> I love hampers.
> Maybe it was to protect it from overheating and frying your eyes ;-)



 you saw what I did there.

Right now the only bloody cripple hamper is the low stock preventing me from buying one of these buggers


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

I'm getting to the manual from below where the link text is worded as :here" (CR)

"
*The Canon EOS R5 manual is available for download*
By Canon Rumors | July 28, 2020 | Canon EOS R

Canon Europe has made the manual for the Canon EOS R5 available for download.
You can grab it here."


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## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Because EOSHD never actually measured the device temperature. They are merely speculating. And have actually errored in their speculation. The device can get extremely hot. Period. And CFexpress cards and SD cards don't have sleep modes. They get hot still when not in use if merely sitting in a card slot. The cards have been pulled out and measured in several Youtube videos already. Reaching well over 104 F when not in use. Most all electronic devices get hot. That's why CPUs and ICs have cooling, fansinks, and FANS. Oh and yes smartphones too. They've been known to catch fire and banned from airlines at one time.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 11, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> that's not what I am talking about. the table similar to this DPR table is what is now gone:


What page number was it in the original? I ask because I don’t ever remember seeing a red table in a Canon manual, lots of black ones but never a red one.


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## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

Dinami said:


> I expected better from you canonrumours. "Why does none of this matter when recording externally?" Because when you record to an atomos for example, its pure HDMI out. The cameras processor is no longer compressing/processing the video for storage.
> 
> Its why the atomos records to prores or whatever other codecs that comes with it. Because it is the EXTERNAL RECORDER DOING THE PROCESSING OF WHATEVER COMES OFF THE SENSOR. I thought this was basic knowledge for anyone intending to use the camera for videography.
> 
> Why then does the camera overheat faster with CF cards installed even externally? There could be a bug where the cf card continues to heatup even when not in use, just like how nvme ssds heat up sometimes even when you arent using them with your PCs. I believe canon COULD possibly fix this in firmware? Although im not 100% on whether this is possible since im not an expert. So perhaps Canonrumours could do without spreading misinformation if they dont even know why cameras dont overheat when recording externally?


Precisely except one small detail. Most CFexpress cards and SD cards do not have a sleep mode. They are themselves electronic devices that do not power themselves down or OFF merely when not being written to. The SD card receives power from the card reader or host.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> What page number was it in the original? I ask because I don’t ever remember seeing a red table in a Canon manual, lots of black ones but never a red one.


That table is a Canon


privatebydesign said:


> What page number was it in the original? I ask because I don’t ever remember seeing a red table in a Canon manual, lots of black ones but never a red one.


That table is a Canon separate release to I believe Canon UK.


----------



## pmjm (Aug 11, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> There are reports that CFExpress cards heat up when in the slot even when not being used. I haven't got an R5 and can't verify this one way or another so perhaps someone who does can reply whether this is true or not.
> 
> If not it's just some careless coding by Canon where they're detecting card present for cutoff limits rather than card is set for recording.



When I have my CFExpress card in the reader connected to my computer, even without accessing the drive, it's ridiculously HOT to the touch after just a few minutes.

Now I know these are really high performing cards but this seems like a major issue in the industry's choice of using CFExpress.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


I don't find anything unusual. Tiny heatsink with thermal pads. That's about all one can do. The heat has to dissipate however. Without a fan, it doesn't matter how much heat sink or thermal padding one has, that heat has to go somewhere else. Or the camera will be a little oven if allowed to video continuously and write to a card. With a fan and no vent it would be similar to a little air fryer. Simple. Not rocket science. Oh and let's not talk about Sony. Their camera gets well over 129 F at times also. Sony just merely bypasses the operating threshold with it's Auto Temp (HIGH) setting. Nothing new here. Plan your work accordingling or use a main camera for continuous recording if one doesn't want to use an Atomos V. A Cine camera. If one is doing extensive video recording why not have an external recorder anyhow? They aren't that expensive. The drives are like $65 to $99.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> What page number was it in the original? I ask because I don’t ever remember seeing a red table in a Canon manual, lots of black ones but never a red one.



There are over 900 pages....how am i to know which page, lol 

"the table similar to this DPR table is what is now gone" The similar content of the table, not the color of the table, is missing now.

Also, the recovery time table is missing now too.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 11, 2020)

lightingb said:


> I can confirm this. I went thr2the menus a few hours to look at all the settings. In the end the record time (high modes) had zero 0:00 recording time left.



Did the camera "shut down"? From your description, no--it just wouldn't let you record video in the fancy modes.

But it was otherwise a perfectly usable _hybrid camera_ at that point, as it would take some video and as many pictures as you want.

Him talking about "shutdown" is ludicrous, and you shouldn't have agreed with him.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

Oh and yes Admin, the SD card and CFexpress card electronics are continuosly powered up while in the card slots. They don't shut down or go into a powered down mode and then magically power themselves up like the LCD can do. Take one out and put your IF thermometer on one. You'll be surprised.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> There are over 900 pages....how am i to know which page, lol
> 
> "the table similar to this DPR table is what is now gone" The similar content of the table, not the color of the table, is missing now.
> 
> Also, the recovery time table is missing now too.


That red table did NOT come from the manual. It was a Canon media alert. Here is the Canon Media Alert in PDF.


https://www.photoxels.com/photography/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Canon-EOS-R5-and-R6-Overheating-Media-Alert.pdf


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 11, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> There are over 900 pages....how am i to know which page, lol
> 
> "the table similar to this DPR table is what is now gone" The similar content of the table, not the color of the table, is missing now.
> 
> Also, the recovery time table is missing now too.


My point was it hasn't been taken out because it was never in there. Why say stuff you can't back up? You are just making shit up because you are pissed and you hope somebody will listen to you, grow up, Canon aren't going to give you a camera because you think you have some legitimate gripe, you don't.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

jam05 said:


> That red table did NOT come from the manual. It was a Canon release to certain Canon website. Not Canon USA. I believe it was Canon UK. I had my manual when that table was released. It was NOT from the Canon EOS R5 advanced user manual.



No kidding. Re-READ WHAT I WROTE: 

_"the table similar to this DPR table is what is now gone" The similar content of the table, not the color of the table, is missing now._


Similar does not mean the EXACT table. It was a table that had pretty much the same content, maybe slightly different wording.

Example:

"You are not reading this carefully, which is why you do not understand this"

"If you do not read this carefully, you will not understand this "

*SIMILAR*:
_adjective_

resembling without being identical.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 11, 2020)

jam05 said:


> That table is a Canon
> 
> That table is a Canon separate release to I believe Canon UK.


I know, I was just getting him to a point I could prove he is making stuff up.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 11, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> No kidding. Re-READ WHAT I WROTE:
> 
> _"the table similar to this DPR table is what is now gone" The similar content of the table, not the color of the table, is missing now._
> 
> ...


Do you have any proof whatsoever it, or something similar, was ever in any version of the manual?


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> My point was it hasn't been taken out because it was never in there. Why say stuff you can't back up? You are just making shit up because you are pissed and you hope somebody will listen to you, grow up, Canon aren't going to give you a camera because you think you have some legitimate gripe, you don't.


Well how am I to back it up when it's not there anymore. Why would I be making shit up when it was someone else who noticed it missing 1st not me. Don't now why you're so pissed off and decided to attack me for no good reason. gee wiz


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> My point was it hasn't been taken out because it was never in there. Why say stuff you can't back up? You are just making shit up because you are pissed and you hope somebody will listen to you, grow up, Canon aren't going to give you a camera because you think you have some legitimate gripe, you don't.



Here, look at post 228. I'm not making up shit. relax. wtf is wrong with you today...

Link


----------



## NorskHest (Aug 11, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> You forgot to mention missing fan, XLRs and inbuilt ND filters... Canon is horrible. We know that. Now... why are you still wasting your time posting on a Canon forum?


Why must you act like the Richards at EOSHD


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 11, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Here, look at post 228. I'm not making up shit. relax. wtf is wrong with you today...
> 
> Link


That is just a link to the same table, it isn't a link to a copy of the manual you say is now missing. I'm sorry but you are just making this stuff up.


----------



## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

Admin: Can you please republish this PDF Canon USA Media Alert


privatebydesign said:


> That is just a link to the same table, it isn't a link to a copy of the manual you say is now missing. I'm sorry but you are just making this stuff up.


It was a Canon Media Alert not from a manual. LOL. However the Canon USA site page is down. Here's the entire media alert in pdf form

CanonU.S.A.,Inc.MediaAlert


https://www.photoxels.com/photography/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Canon-EOS-R5-and-R6-Overheating-Media-Alert.pdf


----------



## leviathan18 (Aug 11, 2020)

With a magnesium body why not run heat pipes to the body itself and use it as a massive heatsink. I have been thinking also you could use the battery compartment as an air chamber with the grip, there are many ways to create a body that dissipates heat.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

Woke up to hysterical ranting in some parts.. decided to come here.

I wrote up my thoughts on all this. I don't think it's as simple as some are attempting to make it out to be.









Chinese engineer updates the EOS R5


In a Baidu post, a Chinese engineer takes apart an EOS R5 and finds some curious problems with heat management. From the images, the CPU and memory, while they get hot, do not have a direct path to the magnesium shell from the top as there is a daughterboard sitting in between the path. While...



www.canonnews.com


----------



## jam05 (Aug 11, 2020)

For those that need the Canon U.S.A. Inc. Media Alert with the Overheating times heres the pdf file. Don't forget to use your IR thermometer or FLIR and measure the camera temps. Don't just simply let the camera reach 104 F and wonder why the times don't match any of the tables. And that includes the cards.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

leviathan18 said:


> With a magnesium body why not run heat pipes to the body itself and use it as a massive heatsink. I have been thinking also you could use the battery compartment as an air chamber with the grip, there are many ways to create a body that dissipates heat.


it would work if you weren't concerned about people getting burned.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> That is just a link to the same table, it isn't a link to a copy of the manual you say is now missing. I'm sorry but you are just making this stuff up.


No, post 228 does not have the table. 228 is what I said to look at (not 229). It's a link to someone else saying he cannot find it anymore. My point is I AM NOT THE ONE that started saying/asking if it is missing. Sorry you got off the wrong side of the bed.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Admin: Can you please republish this PDF Canon USA Media Alert
> 
> It was a Canon Media Alert not from a manual. LOL. However the Canon USA site page is down. Here's the entire media alert in pdf form
> 
> ...



Wow, nobody here understands the difference between "similar" and "exactly the same".

It's like I'm talking English to a cat.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 11, 2020)

For those that want the first R5 manual, document CT2-D091-A you can find it here



https://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/9/0300039689/01/EOS_R5_Advanced_User_Guide_v1_EN.pdf



For those that want to compare it to RevB you can find that that document CT2-D091-B pretty much anywhere.

@Baron_Karza, you are going across multiple threads making false and incorrect accusations. The chart, or something similar, was never in either version of the manual, so IT HAS NOT BEEN TAKEN OUT! Whether you started it or not you are the one perpetuating it across threads, what you are saying it is not true.

If you want to continue I'd suggest you find the table in the first manual to prove it, or something similar, is/was there, I gave you the link.


----------



## skid (Aug 11, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Woke up to hysterical ranting in some parts.. decided to come here.
> 
> I wrote up my thoughts on all this. I don't think it's as simple as some are attempting to make it out to be.
> 
> ...



Ya, that might be the combination of all factors. 
Just want to add something, which he mentioned in the post later. " he was recording 15 minutes of 8K without the overheating sign. He shut off the camera and rest for 10 minutes, and then was able to record 8K until his 512G CFE is filled ( 27 minutes of recording)"


----------



## miketcool (Aug 11, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Do you own the R5?



I do. It’s exactly what I wanted. I wanted my 5Dmkiv to be as big as my EOS R. I expect this to be as reliable as all my 5D’s.




mppix said:


> Poor/mediocre cooling certainly does not promote longvity.



This is a photography tool first. Look at the sensor resolution, shutter speed, and photography features. Canon has a cinema line. In order to keep this at budget as a midrange professional camera, the engineers avoided exotic and unproven cooling techniques that would be required to keep this weather sealed.

When it hits a safety limit, the camera shuts off to protect the longevity of the sensor and components. I expect to get 4-5 years without a major issue, unacceptable hot pixels, or performance degradation.

I’m excited to have a lightweight professional body I can use in hot and humid environments for art prints. If I wanted to shoot primarily video, I would pick up a cinema body. I’m excited to mix in some BTS with my photography work. This is a stellar tool.


----------



## fingerstein (Aug 11, 2020)

There's still hope: maybe Magic Lantern is not dead... or maybe one engineer will save the day in S01EP12.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 11, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> For those that want the first R5 manual, document CT2-D091-A you can find it here
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The CONTENT is still THERE! Look at the very last 2 bullets on page 902. It doesn't cover all modes, but 8K and 4K60.

WTF would I want to make up stuff like that? Don't understand why you keep arguing with me and you keep getting so mad. Having a bad day I guess. WTF did I ever do to you.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 11, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> The CONTENT is still THERE! Look at the very last 2 bullets on page 902. It doesn't cover all modes, but 8K and 4K60.
> 
> WTF would I want to make up stuff like that? Don't understand why you keep arguing with me and you keep getting so mad. Having a bad day I guess. WTF did I ever do to you.


What a complete croc, you said "_the table similar to this DPR table is what is now gone_". Now you are saying bullet points that are still there were there? Listen to yourself, just listen to yourself...


----------



## SteveC (Aug 11, 2020)

canonnews said:


> it would work if you weren't concerned about people getting burned.



If the shutdown temp is in fact 104 degrees at the key components, that's not an issue.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 11, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> What a complete croc, you said "_the table similar to this DPR table is what is now gone_". Now you are saying bullet points that are still there were there? Listen to yourself, just listen to yourself...



From what you say, he's continuing to be someone well worth being on my ignore list.


----------



## David_E (Aug 11, 2020)

Anyone else here *not* lying awake at night wondering what's inside their R5?


----------



## SteveC (Aug 11, 2020)

David_E said:


> Anyone else here *not* lying awake at night wondering what's inside their R5?



Dark matter. And dark energy.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

SteveC said:


> If the shutdown temp is in fact 104 degrees at the key components, that's not an issue.


you want to grip tightly 104 degree'ed metal? and i doubt it's that high. the EU is apparently legislating a far lower external temperature on equipment.

Oh you are talking 104F .. which of course no one in the world uses really.

that's40 degrees.

" A burn is damage to your skin caused by a temperature as low as *44 degrees Celsius* (109.4 Fahrenheit) for a long time. "

so if thermally the outside temp gets above 40 degrees it's a problem.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 11, 2020)

104 F would feel warm to the touch. It's only 5+ degrees F above body temperature. You make it sound like you'd get burns off of it.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 11, 2020)

NorskHest said:


> Why must you act like the Richards at EOSHD


Because it was a joke? Thought it was a bit obvious. No?


----------



## leviathan18 (Aug 11, 2020)

canonnews said:


> it would work if you weren't concerned about people getting burned.



put the heat pipes to places where you don't grip like the bottom of the camera (laptops get much hotter and I don't see people making a fuzz over it) and you can create more surface area at the bottom using slots (fins) 

With heat pipes, you remove heat much better from the component, and with an all-metal body, you can dissipate to the exterior.


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 11, 2020)

lightingb said:


> I can confirm this. I went thr2the menus a few hours to look at all the settings. In the end the record time (high modes) had zero 0:00 recording time left.


You’re saying the camera shut down without taking pictures or video?


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

leviathan18 said:


> put the heat pipes to places where you don't grip like the bottom of the camera (laptops get much hotter and I don't see people making a fuzz over it) and you can create more surface area at the bottom using slots (fins)
> 
> With heat pipes, you remove heat much better from the component, and with an all-metal body, you can dissipate to the exterior.



heat pipe works if you don't have a sealed enclosed space. otherwise, it's just another radiator inside of the camera.

again, size, weight etc is a criteria for a stills camera, that shoots video as well.

because of thermal conductivity with a solid metal and the relative size of a camera, it's unlikely if you sink to any one area versus another it's going to make a dramatic difference.

this isn't a computer, it's not a laptop. they have fans. you don't grip hard on them for hours on end. if you did you'd get burned. especially if they didn't have active ventilation.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

SteveC said:


> 104 F would feel warm to the touch. It's only 5+ degrees F above body temperature. You make it sound like you'd get burns off of it.


actually you start to feel pain at 44c or 111f.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 11, 2020)

leviathan18 said:


> put the heat pipes to places where you don't grip like the bottom of the camera (laptops get much hotter and I don't see people making a fuzz over it) and you can create more surface area at the bottom using slots (fins)
> 
> With heat pipes, you remove heat much better from the component, and with an all-metal body, you can dissipate to the exterior.


This is actually totally sensible solution. Anything under 50C is not hot to touch. Is warm to hot but not burning. Attaching an L-plate with fins will further assist cooling down camera faster if heat was directed to the bottom plate.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> This is actually totally sensible solution. Anything under 50C is not hot to touch. Is warm to hot but not burning. Attaching an L-plate with fins will further assist cooling down camera faster if heat was directed to the bottom plate.


50c would cause low temperature burns. 48C is the maximum if you only hold it for up to 10 minutes.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 11, 2020)

canonnews said:


> 50c would cause low temperature burns. 48C is the maximum if you only hold it for up to 10 minutes


Ok 48C. You do not hold camera by bottom plate for more then 10 minutes when you shooting. Of course. Furthermore, a battery grip with an active exhaust fan inbuilt can be utilised to cover the bottom plate ( hot plate) and vent the hot air out


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Ok 48C. You do not hold camera by bottom plate for more then 10 minutes when you shooting. Of course. Furthermore, a battery grip with an active exhaust fan inbuilt can be utilised to cover the bottom plate ( hot plate) and vent the hot air out


the bottom plate is most likely not thermally isolated from the rest of the camera. the camera is not getting re-designed.
48C will cause burns if you hold the camera for more than 10 minutes. if you heat one part of the solid magnesium alloy shell, the rest of it will heat up as well.

which means you really can't go above around 40C .. and then there's this EU regulations that are taking effect in 2021 that apparently lower the operating temperature as well.


----------



## pmjm (Aug 11, 2020)

flip314 said:


> If there was any venting, the camera would get eviscerated for its lack of weather-proofing...



My proposal is to put a vent on the bottom but have it sealed by attaching the battery grip.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 11, 2020)

canonnews said:


> the bottom plate is most likely not thermally isolated from the rest of the camera. the camera is not getting re-designed.
> 48C will cause burns if you hold the camera for more than 10 minutes. if you heat one part of the solid magnesium alloy shell, the rest of it will heat up as well.
> 
> which means you really can't go above around 40C .. and then there's this EU regulations that are taking effect in 2021 that apparently lower the operating temperature as well.


It is partially correct but the larger the area that dissipate heat the faster the surface will cool down and it won’t be as hot. Let’s think about it from thermodynamics perspective. Camera radiates a certain amount of energy that used to hit a mass. The larger the mass and heat dissipation surface the cooler the camera is. Fins and active cooling (Via attached battery grip with active cooling fan) will reduce surface temperature. Fast. I am not an expert in thermodynamics but from what I know: it makes sense.


----------



## pmjm (Aug 11, 2020)

nchoh said:


> And where would the thermal paste transfer the heat to??? It basically boils down to... if you don't or can't vent the camera, then you it doesn't matter how much or how good your thermal paste is.



If it could direct the heat to the chasse, it passively radiates into the air around the camera.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> It is partially correct but the larger the area that dissipate heat the faster the surface will cool down and it won’t be as hot. Let’s think about it from thermodynamics perspective. Camera radiates a certain amount of energy that used to hit a mass. The larger the mass and heat dissipation surface the cooler the camera is. Fins and active cooling (Via attached battery grip with active cooling fan) will reduce surface temperature. Fast. I am not an expert in thermodynamics but from what I know: it makes sense.


Possibly. Another problem may be the assembly of such a unit and the fact that a heat pipe will radiate heat internally as well. and there's not enough room to put any sort of heat piping over the processor and memory because of the daughterboard.

it also doesn't get around the fact that the cards seem to be playing a huge issue in this as well. considering the camera can record for up to 4 hours without a card in it.

if this is the case, which it seems likely, then it really doesn't matter of the CPU,etc is cooled any better, because the problem is the cards.

So I don't know .. but it really doesn't matter what we think - the camera simply isn't designed in such a way.

however EOSHD's take was extremely unwarranted IMO.


----------



## David - Sydney (Aug 11, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> The Atomos Ninja cannot support 8K nor likely 4K120 - neither the Canon nor Ninja have HDMI 2.1, so that's internal or nothing. There is an 8K modules coming for their Neon range.


I read today that there are no certified HDMI 2.1 cables yet.. that they won't be available before the end of the year and so some current ones will work and others might not. PS5 etc will drive these requirements but they are bleeding edge. Can't imagine that Canon would include a HDMI2.1 port on this basis.


----------



## jeliel (Aug 11, 2020)

What about some R4 and R7, for example ? I mean R5 & R6 without video stuff ? It would be cheaper for people like me who don't give a ... about video ...


----------



## AaronT (Aug 11, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> I'm calling Noctua.


Wrong, everyone knows that you need one of these. Noctua is too noisy and will screw up the sound during video recording!


----------



## PerKr (Aug 11, 2020)

jeliel said:


> What about some R4 and R7, for example ? I mean R5 & R6 without video stuff ? It would be cheaper for people like me who don't give a ... about video ...



It has been explained time and time again that this would not yield a lower cost product. If anything, such a camera would be niche enough to warrant a higher price. If you don't want video, just don't use the video functions and be happy about not needing to consider whether a camera does 1080 or 4K.


----------



## JTPhotography (Aug 11, 2020)

R5 is pure junk. I smoke and after shooting only 3 landscape images with shutter speeds of greater than a half second, I can light a cigarette by sticking it in the big card slot.


----------



## Berowne (Aug 11, 2020)

I hope Roger will show us a teardown of the R5 (and of course the new Sony A7S III) soon. Wonder what he will tell us.


----------



## DBounce (Aug 11, 2020)

Otara said:


> Similar reason to why so many are sure of it, just the flip side.
> 
> If limiting it was the primary goal, it seems like quite the oversight to allow unlimited external recording. Not to mention even making 8K RAW available in the first place.


That’s the type of thing that probably slipped through the cracks. It was not immediately discovered even after release. As for allowing 8K... it was provided for marketing purposes. And crippled to ensure it would be useless in any practical application. Explain why it cannot be outputted via HDMI since the port allows up to 8K @30p? Because this feature was deliberately crippled. It’s just there to grab headlines.


----------



## DBounce (Aug 11, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Admin: Can you please republish this PDF Canon USA Media Alert
> 
> It was a Canon Media Alert not from a manual. LOL. However the Canon USA site page is down. Here's the entire media alert in pdf form
> 
> ...


Conveniently, in the estimated recovery times section, they do not in fact list any recovery times... just partial recovery times. If they had listed the actual time (2 or more hours) needed for a full recovery everyone would realize these features are not really intended to be usable.


----------



## Eclipsed (Aug 11, 2020)

nchoh said:


> And where would the heat sink vent to? If the camera is sealed, then the heat still stays in the camera. The heat sink can spread the heat around inside the camera body, but that only gets you so far before the entire of the inside reaches the same critical temperature. That the R5 is already so cramped, means that there is not a lot of space for the heat sink to work anyways.
> 
> Looking a bit further... you will notice that there isn't much space behind the sensor. There is that aluminum plate that is blocking (?) the heat to the sensor. If the heat were to be vented in front of the senor, then it would end up in the lens.Long story short; there isn't a lot of space to disperse the heat to, so really a fancy solution like thermal paste to conduct heat to a heat sink would be an expensive was of effort.
> 
> BTW, thermal paste is used to ensure heat connectivity between the CPU and the heat sink. Since a heat sink would be fairly useless, then thermal paste is moot. Some have mentioned seeing huge copper pads used a heat sinks which makes way more sense.


Thermal mass like copper pad is essentially useless unless it take the heat somewhere else. Same for conductive paste.
Granted if a chip has a hot spot a pasted plate can get the heat away from that spot but that’s different from getting heat out of a plastic box for more than 10 minutes of continuous operation.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Aug 11, 2020)

JTPhotography said:


> R5 is pure junk. I smoke and after shooting only 3 landscape images with shutter speeds of greater than a half second, I can light a cigarette by sticking it in the big card slot.


 What do you smoke?..


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 11, 2020)

jam05 said:


> Because EOSHD never actually measured the device temperature. They are merely speculating. And have actually errored in their speculation. The device can get extremely hot. Period. And CFexpress cards and SD cards don't have sleep modes. They get hot still when not in use if merely sitting in a card slot. The cards have been pulled out and measured in several Youtube videos already. Reaching well over 104 F when not in use. Most all electronic devices get hot. That's why CPUs and ICs have cooling, fansinks, and FANS. Oh and yes smartphones too. They've been known to catch fire and banned from airlines at one time.


They (Delkin) support power modes and you can disconnect at the the PHY - physical layer, to further reduce power draw. The also have lower power states when writing if the OS supports. I couldn't find an equivalent spec for Sandisk, Sony, Prograde, WISE or Lexar, but I assume it is part of the CFExpress standard precisely because they know their devices get hot...

I equate disconnect or low power modes as a sleep mode.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

JTPhotography said:


> R5 is pure junk. I smoke and after shooting only 3 landscape images with shutter speeds of greater than a half second, I can light a cigarette by sticking it in the big card slot.


you should pay extra for that.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> They (Delkin) support power modes and you can disconnect at the the PHY - physical layer, to further reduce power draw. The also have lower power states when writing if the OS supports. I couldn't find an equivalent spec for Sandisk, Sony, Prograde, WISE or Lexar, but I assume it is part of the CFExpress standard precisely because they know their devices get hot...
> 
> I equate disconnect or low power modes as a sleep mode.


yeah, I'd be curious about a power sleep mode. There must be one in the specification.

that would be better than powering it off programmatically because then any maintenance the card controller is doing can finish gracefully before going to sleep.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 11, 2020)

canonnews said:


> yeah, I'd be curious about a power sleep mode. There must be one in the specification.
> 
> that would be better than powering it off programmatically because then any maintenance the card controller is doing can finish gracefully before going to sleep.


If it's NVMe, it has a shutdown command. If a camera can use it to tell the card to "sleep", does the card need its own "power sleep mode"?


----------



## bandido (Aug 11, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> There are reports that CFExpress cards heat up when in the slot even when not being used. I haven't got an R5 and can't verify this one way or another so perhaps someone who does can reply whether this is true or not.
> 
> If not it's just some careless coding by Canon where they're detecting card present for cutoff limits rather than card is set for recording.


What about the R6? That one only uses SD cards but still suffers from overheating in certain recording modes.


----------



## visionrouge.net (Aug 11, 2020)

Check what's Andrew Reid tried.
Only displaying the wi-Fi menu, without a single frame recorded or photo taken on his desk; and the camera already overheating!


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 11, 2020)

visionrouge.net said:


> Check what's Andrew Reid tried.
> Only displaying the wi-Fi menu, without a single frame recorded or photo taken on his desk; and the camera already overheating!



Overheating or showing a warning that it might overheat in the future when using video? Could it still take stills and record in the regular 4k modes? If so, it didn't overheat.


----------



## visionrouge.net (Aug 11, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Overheating or showing a warning that it might overheat in the future when using video? Could it still take stills and record in the regular 4k modes? If so, it didn't overheat.


Saying recording limit is 10mn,
and still counting down.. Until this reached 0mn, just playing with the Wi-Fi menu.
So 0 min could be recorded, without recording anything.
The camera was still operating on other mode. 

There is a strong suggestion that a counter start more than an actual heat sensor to shut down the recording.

Whatever cooling device you are using, the maximum time is always the same and based on time the camera is on "video preview" mode. 
It's consistent with Canon official statement. No one was able to record more than one Canon stated. It's even too consistent for being based on temperature readings.

(The Wifi menu is a screen layer on the video feed)


----------



## scyrene (Aug 11, 2020)

DBounce said:


> This camera is purposely crippled to segment it from the cinema line. It’s not a limitation of the hardware, it’s a choice to protect the cinema line. I’m not sure why anyone skills be ok with that. Especially when Canon marketed this camera as a pro video tool that could be used along side the C300 Mk3.



Ignoring the tired conspiracy theory, you're sidestepping the question you're replying to. You stated something that was untrue (that the camera locks due to 'scrolling through menus'), and now you're doubling down rather than acknowledging you were incorrect. But you know what you said wasn't true, you're just here to spout unhinged nonsense.


----------



## scyrene (Aug 11, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I am not an expert in thermodynamics but from what I know: it makes sense.



LOL


----------



## scyrene (Aug 11, 2020)

jeliel said:


> What about some R4 and R7, for example ? I mean R5 & R6 without video stuff ? It would be cheaper for people like me who don't give a ... about video ...



Not this again!


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 11, 2020)

visionrouge.net said:


> Check what's Andrew Reid tried.
> Only displaying the wi-Fi menu, without a single frame recorded or photo taken on his desk; and the camera already overheating!


Yep makes total sense... Camera can record for 4 hours without the cards but that totally common use case of sitting on a wifi screen trying to connect for an hour is not working....

EOSHD and Andrew need to be discounted for the complete horseshit they/he are. 

The thermal protection is part of the R5/R6 design. Hopefully Canon has learned from this release and will limit innovation in all future releases because the internet cannot read a fucking manual.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 11, 2020)

Kit. said:


> If it's NVMe, it has a shutdown command. If a camera can use it to tell the card to "sleep", does the card need its own "power sleep mode"?


Well the Delkin has lower power modes so you can throttle the I/O and supports different power states, as it depends on where it is being used. It also mentions the equivalent of shutdown which is the disconnect programmatically at the PHY layer. One assumes you can reverse that. PCs have different power saving modes, so not surprising that extends to other devices depending on where you might deploy them.

Oh and the Delkin supports TRIM also, so that would be interesting if the Camera has to do that every so often....

But either way, whether you do a lower power mode or shutdown equivalent, to save some power and thus heat, that only solves it for people who use an external recorder, which kind of defeats the purpose of internal recording for those of us who don't need to do lots of video, but would like to do some!


----------



## Bert63 (Aug 11, 2020)

AaronT said:


> Wrong, everyone knows that you need one of these. Noctua is too noisy and will screw up the sound during video recording!
> View attachment 192083




I see what you did there.


----------



## nchoh (Aug 11, 2020)

pmjm said:


> If it could direct the heat to the chasse, it passively radiates into the air around the camera.



Sorry you are not clear. I'll assume that you mean the camera body (chassis).

If you mean to use the body as a the main source of heat dissipation, then it depends on the amount of heat generated and the thermal conductivity of the magnesium alloy body, which is relatively low. Then you have to figure in the dynamics of the heat transfer all around the camera. Because the thermal conductivity of the camera is low, heat will escape to the rest of the internals of the camera, resulting the in same situation. Then if you want to solve that problem, you will have to insulate the heat generating piece (the CPU) which then for a smallish camera adds bulk. Then if you are successful with insulating the CPU and then transfer the heat (also insulated) to the chassis, the user would then burn their hands?


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Well the Delkin has lower power modes so you can throttle the I/O and supports different power states, as it depends on where it is being used. It also mentions the equivalent of shutdown which is the disconnect programmatically at the PHY layer. One assumes you can reverse that. PCs have different power saving modes, so not surprising that extends to other devices depending on where you might deploy them.
> 
> Oh and the Delkin supports TRIM also, so that would be interesting if the Camera has to do that every so often....
> 
> But either way, whether you do a lower power mode or shutdown equivalent, to save some power and thus heat, that only solves it for people who use an external recorder, which kind of defeats the purpose of internal recording for those of us who don't need to do lots of video, but would like to do some!


TRIM is usually only needed if you delete.

The powersaving / NVMe mode though COULD be useful if you switched the camera to ECO mode.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 11, 2020)

nchoh said:


> Sorry you are not clear. I'll assume that you mean the camera body (chassis).
> 
> If you mean to use the body as a the main source of heat dissipation, then it depends on the amount of heat generated and the thermal conductivity of the magnesium alloy body, which is relatively low. Then you have to figure in the dynamics of the heat transfer all around the camera. Because the thermal conductivity of the camera is low, heat will escape to the rest of the internals of the camera, resulting the in same situation. Then if you want to solve that problem, you will have to insulate the heat generating piece (the CPU) which then for a smallish camera adds bulk. Then if you are successful with insulating the CPU and then transfer the heat (also insulated) to the chassis, the user would then burn their hands?


Mag Alloy is low, but it's still better than air.

but yes, the better you make the heat transfer the risk of burns occur. Everyone also keeps mentioning this new EU law, but i'll be damned if i can find it. I'd love to see what is coming into effect.


----------



## nchoh (Aug 11, 2020)

DBounce said:


> I honestly don’t believe that overheating has anything to do with this. I think it’s merely a deliberate crippling. With no memory card the camera does not overheat. It can run for hours. It can output 4K HQ for hours. Worst still I think Canon could enable 8K raw output on the R5... the HDMI port can support 8K @30p. Canon just choose not to.
> We know Canon deliberately cripples cameras.... Who can forget the missing 24p debacle? Or the missing log? I’m not sure why so many are acting like the idea of Canon deliberately crippling a camera is preposterous?



With no memory card, the CPU does not do any processing to write to the memory card, hence the CPU will run cooler.


----------



## nchoh (Aug 11, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Mag Alloy is low, but it's still better than air.
> 
> but yes, the better you make the heat transfer the risk of burns occur. Everyone also keeps mentioning this new EU law, but i'll be damned if i can find it. I'd love to see what is coming into effect.



Heat conductivity through air is low, but do remember, air has convection as well to move heat around.

Best solution is to reduce the heat generated.

Designing a camera to mechanically remove the heat is tough. Your article on the heat removal adapter shows that Canon has thought through the issues.


----------



## arthurbikemad (Aug 11, 2020)

I wonder if all this R5 heat talk has caused the internet to go into meltdown, I mean those servers kick out some heat right, but no one cares, no wonder they run internet cables under the ocean, bloody well need to so they stay cool...


As someone who owns a grip for the R5 and a spare battery, I do wonder, when my pre order finally ships and my credit card also reaches temperatures close to the core of the camera shooting 8k I wonder how I will feel about my new purchase, am I going to go to a shoot and have other photographers laugh at me and say, look at that idot with an R5, what a moron, he will be done in 16 mins (or less) as his camera will overheat, that said sat here in 36deg C heat I do wonder....will it.... maybe Mr Canon should help us all understand what's what, rather than leave the internet buzzing with all these mixed feelings, I for one do wish they would, or is this one of those Cameras that will always be a subject of HOT debate?

Even though she is bad, and does not mix well with others, I still love her, desire her, and I will, have her....my love, come home to me... #R5.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 11, 2020)

canonnews said:


> TRIM is usually only needed if you delete.
> 
> The powersaving / NVMe mode though COULD be useful if you switched the camera to ECO mode.


You never delete pictures or videos on your camera???


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 11, 2020)

scyrene said:


> LOL


And what part makes you LOL exactly?


----------



## SteveC (Aug 11, 2020)

DBounce said:


> This camera is purposely crippled to segment it from the cinema line. It’s not a limitation of the hardware, it’s a choice to protect the cinema line. I’m not sure why anyone skills be ok with that. Especially when Canon marketed this camera as a pro video tool that could be used along side the C300 Mk3.



So you've pivoted from it being useless because it overheats, to some wild conspiracy theory that the camera only pretends to overheat because of the cinema line?

Yeesh.


----------



## vignes (Aug 11, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I can't get through a single thing from EOSHD. That guy is so full of ego and states his opinions as facts without sufficient logic or substantiation. Having a following doesn't make someone right. He typically makes emotional stabs at anyone in his forum who dares to disagree with him, however civilly they are discussing a matter.
> 
> As for making assumptions on the teardown and materials of R5? Are any of these talking heads or random people with angry opinions (because they can't buy a cinema camera for $4000) actually electronics engineers or have ever done a thermal analysis? If so, I expect more rigor than they are presenting. I have plenty of knowledge in this area and will leave it at that, but I'm not here making speculations despite my knowledge. Unless I know the power dissipation of all components in all modes, the thermal resistivity in each material, and run a 3D thermal analysis myself, I know better than to guess. There is no point acting like we know what the problem fully is. Sure, testing might yield some results, but people acting like Canon are idiots are being unfair....The assumption that armchair engineering is better than a dedicated team that cares about the product at Canon is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


so A7Siii is not weather sealed?


----------



## Sean C (Aug 11, 2020)

tldr: real world SSD/USB flash differ in heat dissipation; do Cfast cards?

Die shrinks in the flash and controller, controller design and firmware power management all make a power draw/heat dissipation difference. I've noticed that in at least SSDs and USB memory sticks.

Cooler cards would also use less battery power, which is at a premium for mirrorless cameras.

Are some Cfast cards more power efficient than others both at idle and while in use?
If not, is this something card vendors could develop in firmware? (with or without coordination with camera manufacturers)


----------



## DBounce (Aug 11, 2020)

SteveC said:


> So you've pivoted from it being useless because it overheats, to some wild conspiracy theory that the camera only pretends to overheat because of the cinema line?
> 
> Yeesh.


My opinion evolves as new information becomes available. As nothing from freezing... to blowing cold air into the body through the open lens mount... to ice cubes... and even prayer seems to be able to increase recording times or reduce recover times, I am left to conclude that one of the following must be true:

A. Canon has specifically added limits within the firmware to prevent full use of these features.

Or

B. Canon has constructed the body of the R5 from an alien alloy, shared with them as part of “the good package “.

You pick the more likely option.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 11, 2020)

Sean C said:


> tldr: real world SSD/USB flash differ in heat dissipation; do Cfast cards?
> 
> Die shrinks in the flash and controller, controller design and firmware power management all make a power draw/heat dissipation difference. I've noticed that in at least SSDs and USB memory sticks.
> 
> ...


Y


Sean C said:


> tldr: real world SSD/USB flash differ in heat dissipation; do Cfast cards?
> 
> Die shrinks in the flash and controller, controller design and firmware power management all make a power draw/heat dissipation difference. I've noticed that in at least SSDs and USB memory sticks.
> 
> ...


You're right, but I wonder how small the CFE market is, in comparison to the SSD/USB Flash drive, and therefore how much incentive there is. Camera manufacturers don't have too many choices for high speed internal cards. What would motivate CFE vendors to produce a better thermal product?

I wonder if Canon would be prepared to say, use Brand X and get 20 mins, or use Brand Y and get 30 mins. Canon is making a recommendation, and then if Brand Y doesnt last as long as Brand X.....

I would hope Canon looked at this, and when they did there wasn't much difference.

Still, hopefully I will have a Sony CFE in 2 days, so I am happy to post if this gives different times...


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 11, 2020)

DBounce said:


> My opinion evolves as new information becomes available. As nothing from freezing... to blowing cold air into the body through the open lens mount... to ice cubes... and even prayer seems to be able to increase recording times or reduce recover times, I am left to conclude that one of the following must be true:
> 
> A. Canon has specifically added limits within the firmware to prevent full use of these features.
> 
> ...


or

C. None of the above


----------



## Greywind (Aug 11, 2020)

The way thermal pads were placed is so wrong that it feels conspiracy. The placement of components does not look like Canon is trying to mitigate overheating as well. 
Some small modification in design might improve this: dedicated thin heat pipe (like the one in smartphone) for CPU. Or 3mm thicker body for space of thermal management.
I got the implication that Canon just don't want R5/R6 to be too good. Well they are a company after all and money talks.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 11, 2020)

Greywind said:


> The way thermal pads were placed is so wrong that it feels conspiracy. The placement of components does not look like Canon is trying to mitigate overheating as well.
> Some small modification in design might improve this: dedicated thin heat pipe (like the one in smartphone) for CPU. Or 3mm thicker body for space of thermal management.
> I got the implication that Canon just don't want R5/R6 to be too good. Well they are a company after all and money talks.



You joined just to troll.


----------



## Greywind (Aug 11, 2020)

SteveC said:


> You joined just to troll.


I joined to give my opinion. If you want to discuss, feel free to point where I'm wrong. I'm open to reasonable criticism.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 11, 2020)

SteveC said:


> You joined just to troll.


And to join my ever growing ignore list

Not sure if I said it before, but I really do wonder if the people on everyone's ignore lists are just disagreeing with each other...


----------



## SteveC (Aug 11, 2020)

Greywind said:


> I joined to give my opinion. If you want to discuss, feel free to point where I'm wrong. I'm open to reasonable criticism.



Reasonable criticism? For a totally unreasonable allegation of conspiracy? Where does one start?

Troll.


----------



## raptor3x (Aug 11, 2020)

SteveC said:


> So you've pivoted from it being useless because it overheats, to some wild conspiracy theory that the camera only pretends to overheat because of the cinema line?
> 
> Yeesh.



The design shown in the teardown is indeed somewhat bizarre. At the very least, Canon clearly did not prioritize thermal management in the camera's design.


----------



## VictraBarca (Aug 11, 2020)

SDExpress here we comeeee


----------



## scyrene (Aug 11, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> And what part makes you LOL exactly?



Perhaps the second follows from the first...


----------



## scyrene (Aug 11, 2020)

Greywind said:


> I joined to give my opinion. If you want to discuss, feel free to point where I'm wrong. I'm open to reasonable criticism.



You didn't make any substantive points. To paraphrase an old quote, you're not even wrong. "It feels like conspiracy" isn't worth criticising.


----------



## HarryFilm (Aug 12, 2020)

VICYASA said:


> Can't wait to hear the pontifications of all you camera designers and developers... the incredible musings of expertise from this short video.




Right On Here! Since we actually DID DESIGN and BUILD a three million dollar 131,072 by 131,072 pixel CMOS image sensor on an ultra large 400mm Si-substrate glued to a large plate of micro-channel embedded Al2O3 ceramic which melts at about 2072 degrees celcius ... AND a 50.3 megapixel Global Shutter IP69/Milspec 810-G rated combined Stills/video system.... I think I can DEFINITELY chime in on HOW Canon could fix this!

First thing they need to add is a long term heat sink that is of enough mass and such a poor conductor of heat that it can ABSORB heat continuously and dissipate it ever SLOOOOOLY for many hours (12 hours+)!

You need basically an interior shell of molded LI-900 Silica Tile within the back of the camera about 5mm thick that wraps around and/or encases only the rear of the camera and into the battery and card slot compartments. 

A series of thermal transfer plates made of solid copper that are attached with a long-lasting thermal paste from the CPU(s), from the memory card slots and battery compartments will move heat via solid copper metal tubing that is embedded into the LI-900 silica.

It quite quickly transfer thermal energy into the ceramic tile very much in the same manner as the old U.S. Space Shuttle Heat Shield tiles did when that spacecraft re-entered the atmosphere and superheated the tiles to 1650 Celcius. So much heat was ABSORBED yet you could STILL TOUCH the corners of the tiles with your bare fingers!

Just based upon some observations and math from the OP's teardown, we could use LI-900 tile at 5mm thick to absorb about 12 hours MINIMUM worth of heat (i.e. 145,000 joules for a typical 40 watt ARM/Canon DIGIC cpu per hour is my estimate) if you use a heat sink mass that is 5mm thick like LI-900 Silica glass ceramic within a body the size of the Canon R5 which will STILL allow normal handheld operation for that entire period.

NO OTHER passive or active cooling would be needed!

The silica radiates heat so slowly that a simple external metal tube that goes from the interior of the LI-900 tile to a 2 cm square metal plate on the bottom of the camera could cool down the camera enough after the 12 hours of solid operation that it would be ready for use the next morning. To get EXTRA heat sink ability just use a thicker tile at up to 10mm thick.

At 0.144 grams per cubic cm, it is so light you can embed lots of it into the NEW R5 or R1 cameras!

Use a thicker ceramic plate at say 10 mm thick and we could get a full 24 hours worth of operation at full DCI 8k 30 fps or 120 fps DCI 4k recording on the Canon R5.

LI-900 Silica tile -- Try it Canon!

V


----------



## visionrouge.net (Aug 12, 2020)

Ramage said:


> EOSHD and Andrew need to be discounted for the complete horseshit they/he are.
> 
> The thermal protection is part of the R5/R6 design. Hopefully Canon has learned from this release and will limit innovation in all future releases because the internet cannot read a fucking manual.


Canon publish with each JPG a temperature reading, so you may want to try it yourself... You just need to read the EXIF data.

*Indoors, during the evening we conducted the test as follows:*

*We observed 30 Celsius (86F) with the camera switched on from cold for the first time indoors (ambient temp 27C)*
*We observed 46 Celsius after 5 minutes in stills mode, with no video recorded and one photo.*
*We set the intervalometer to take one still every 5 minutes (JPEG)*
*The temperature remained at a very steady 46C, however after 30 minutes the “Video Restricted” status activated in stills mode, with no video recorded whatsoever, and the internal camera temps still at 46C.*
*So the temperature didn’t increase whatsoever but the high quality video modes still went into lockdown.*

Which part of the Canon manual explain this?
No video taken whatsoever, only one picture every 5mn.
But camera goes into heat protection BS and can't record any video!!!!???

You may want to rethink your blind love for Canon.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 12, 2020)

visionrouge.net said:


> Canon publish with each JPG a temperature reading, so you may want to try it yourself... You just need to read the EXIF data.
> 
> *Indoors, during the evening we conducted the test as follows:*
> 
> ...


Wow that is fascinating... So the temp sensor the "test" is reading is static at 46c. Wonder what the other sensors are reading?

Oh wait I do not give a shit...

I am going to go use my beloved R5, now if only I can find it with my poor eyesight.


----------



## visionrouge.net (Aug 12, 2020)

This "test" sensor, as you call it, is the one stopping the camera from recording.
It's not a static 46C.
You may want to find your glasses and read the full article.


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 12, 2020)

visionrouge.net said:


> This "test" sensor, as you call it, is the one stopping the camera from recording.
> It's not a static 46C.
> You may want to find your glasses and read the full article.


No I said... The sensor the "Test".... was reading was static at 46c. I used quotes because I think the "test" is flawed. 

Just like my "test" using my own exif data is flawed because the "Camera Temperature" is reading from where???

My reported Camera Temperature is 36c, the back of the camera read 32c and the CFexpress card is 47c




Edit: I forgot to mention I would rather bathe my cat while naked then read anything on EOSHD...

Have a nice day


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 12, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Perhaps the second follows from the first...


The second part.. as in: “...it makes sense..”?
I gather, It likely doesn’t make sense to yourself. Hence your elaborate post explaining where in your opinion I was mistaken.
Opinions may differ.


----------



## visionrouge.net (Aug 12, 2020)

Good that you checked on your side following EOSHD advise, hope you can recover faster than a overheating R5.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 12, 2020)

Ramage said:


> Edit: I forgot to mention I would rather bathe my cat while naked then read anything on EOSHD...


Bizarre analogy but funny


----------



## Del Paso (Aug 12, 2020)

cornieleous said:


> I can't get through a single thing from EOSHD. That guy is so full of ego and states his opinions as facts without sufficient logic or substantiation. Having a following doesn't make someone right. He typically makes emotional stabs at anyone in his forum who dares to disagree with him, however civilly they are discussing a matter.
> 
> As for making assumptions on the teardown and materials of R5? Are any of these talking heads or random people with angry opinions (because they can't buy a cinema camera for $4000) actually electronics engineers or have ever done a thermal analysis? If so, I expect more rigor than they are presenting. I have plenty of knowledge in this area and will leave it at that, but I'm not here making speculations despite my knowledge. Unless I know the power dissipation of all components in all modes, the thermal resistivity in each material, and run a 3D thermal analysis myself, I know better than to guess. There is no point acting like we know what the problem fully is. Sure, testing might yield some results, but people acting like Canon are idiots are being unfair....The assumption that armchair engineering is better than a dedicated team that cares about the product at Canon is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


This is THE post I've been waiting for!
Thank you!


----------



## Greywind (Aug 12, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Reasonable criticism? For a totally unreasonable allegation of conspiracy? Where does one start?
> 
> Troll.


Thermal pads on RAM but no thermal pad on CPU. Generally, CPU run much hotter than RAM.
Also the way they place thermal pads of RAM partly cover CPU's surface is either carelessly or conspiracy.
I'm doing camera and phone repair, something look quite obvious to me, might not be so obvious to other, I guess.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 12, 2020)

Greywind said:


> Thermal pads on RAM but no thermal pad on CPU. Generally, CPU run much hotter than RAM.
> Also the way they place thermal pads of RAM partly cover CPU's surface is either carelessly or conspiracy.
> I'm doing camera and phone repair, something look quite obvious to me, might not be so obvious to other, I guess.


no thermal pads on CPU: there is a PCB board directly above the CPU. are you suggesting to have thermal pad installed on top of the CPU and transfer the heat to the PCB above? not a good idea.. in my opinion, it would make sense to have thermal pad installed from the opposite side of the CPU board and transfer heat to the chassis..
I


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 12, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> Right On Here! Since we actually DID DESIGN and BUILD a three million dollar 131,072 by 131,072 pixel CMOS image sensor on an ultra large 400mm Si-substrate glued to a large plate of micro-channel embedded Al2O3 ceramic which melts at about 2072 degrees celcius ... AND a 50.3 megapixel Global Shutter IP69/Milspec 810-G rated combined Stills/video system.... I think I can DEFINITELY chime in on HOW Canon could fix this!
> 
> First thing they need to add is a long term heat sink that is of enough mass and such a poor conductor of heat that it can ABSORB heat continuously and dissipate it ever SLOOOOOLY for many hours (12 hours+)!
> 
> ...


How expensive is the LI-9000 (let's ignore the costs to implement it into a body)? And how big would the tile need to be at 5mm thickness?

Then you would need to factor in multiple copper pipes (CFE, Digic, Memory, Not sure whether you can for the sensor given IBIS), so at least 3 copper pipes)?

Plus the CFE generates a lot of heat from what others are saying as I don't think it has any other choice but to heat up it's metal casing.

And out of curiousity, if the Silica tile is exposed to the outside, does it dissipate any quicker? If Canon used it in the bottom of the body, would that help dissipate quicker? If I understood you correctly, it wouldn't be hot to the touch, but would increase the bottom of the case by 5mm? Is the tile sturdy in all other respects?

Finally, your solution is perhaps a little high end. The R5 is not intended to be a 8k video workhorse, I think many would be happy to shoot stills, shoot HQ video, shoot stills and the only limit is the max record times. I'd be fine with that. Is there anything you know which may not be as costly as the ceramic tiles?


----------



## Greywind (Aug 12, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> no thermal pads on CPU: there is a PCB board directly above the CPU. are you suggesting to have thermal pad installed on top of the CPU and transfer the heat to the PCB above? not a good idea.. in my opinion, it would make sense to have thermal pad installed from the opposite side of the CPU board and transfer heat to the chassis..
> I


Then it's hard to explain why thermal pads on RAM then? And it's still better to have the heat on PCB than on CPU. The solder lead can withstand at least 200 Celsius and up to 350 depend on the type they use. Components like resistors, coils, capacitor could withstand the heat better than CPU.
But you got a good point, there is a bigger chasis underneath that CPU, maybe it's better to dissipate the heat to there. But the right way to do so is flipping the CPU board so the top of CPU touch that bigger chasis. Because disspate thru the PCB itself is not so effective.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 12, 2020)

Greywind said:


> Then it's hard to explain why thermal pads on RAM then? And it's still better to have the heat on PCB than on CPU. The solder lead can withstand at least 200 Celsius and up to 350 depend on the type they use. Components like resistors, coils, capacitor could withstand the heat better than CPU.
> But you got a good point, there is a bigger chasis underneath that CPU, maybe it's better to dissipate the heat to there. *But the right way to do so is flipping the CPU board so the top of CPU touch that bigger chasis.* Because disspate thru the PCB itself is not so effective.


It may work. however, I am under an impression that the biggest issue here is the CFE cards are running very hot.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Aug 12, 2020)

miketcool said:


> I’m fine with the cutoffs. This isn’t a cinema body. It isn’t an A-Cam or B-Cam body. This is for specialty situations, or for those of us that mix a little video with photo work. I prefer Canon protecting the longevity and reliability of the camera and sensor. I like knowing that this will be the same on every job.


Absolutely!


----------



## vjlex (Aug 12, 2020)

Ramage said:


> I forgot to mention I would rather bathe my cat while naked then read anything on EOSHD...


Your cat wears clothes? I thought they always bathed naked.  I'll see myself out...


----------



## canonnews (Aug 12, 2020)

Greywind said:


> Thermal pads on RAM but no thermal pad on CPU. Generally, CPU run much hotter than RAM.
> Also the way they place thermal pads of RAM partly cover CPU's surface is either carelessly or conspiracy.
> I'm doing camera and phone repair, something look quite obvious to me, might not be so obvious to other, I guess.


they aren't thermal pads. Why the blazes would you have thermal pads when a daughter card is sitting on top of them? What do you want to do? cook the daughter card?

I updated our article...









Chinese engineer updates the EOS R5


In a Baidu post, a Chinese engineer takes apart an EOS R5 and finds some curious problems with heat management. From the images, the CPU and memory, while they get hot, do not have a direct path to the magnesium shell from the top as there is a daughterboard sitting in between the path. While...



www.canonnews.com





This is why the bullshit spewing from a certain source is rediculous and bordering on libel and if Canon gets annoyed enough, legal trouble.

and here's the image you should carefully look at


----------



## Greywind (Aug 12, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> It may work. however, I am under an impression that the biggest issue here is the CFE cards are running very hot.


Could be, I'm hoping that someone open the camera and operate it without fully attached (that's how we test a camea after replacing a component) while having a fan blowing in. That would point out which part generate most heat and whether the recording limit is in the hardware or in the firmware


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Aug 12, 2020)

canonnews said:


> they aren't thermal pads. Why the blazes would you have thermal pads when a daughter card is sitting on top of them? What do you want to do? cook the daughter card?
> 
> I updated our article...
> 
> ...


I think that certain source is damn close to having Canon spend a boat load of money on it. 

They will either buy him or sue him.


----------



## maxfactor9933 (Aug 12, 2020)

I think it is possible to put an aluminium sheet in between the chip and the back of the flip screen body to have better heat conductivity between the chip and camera body. 
but it might make the camera too hot to touch or may cause other issues. I am pretty sure that they have tried and tested all possible options. interestingly they could have made this camera like 2 mm thicker and make enough room for a proper heatsink.


----------



## visionrouge.net (Aug 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> they aren't thermal pads. Why the blazes would you have thermal pads when a daughter card is sitting on top of them? What do you want to do? cook the daughter card?
> 
> I updated our article...
> 
> ...


Actually, there is a metal layer between the pad and the second board on top.

So, the 2 pads ARE thermal pad. The guy who open it even added some thermal paste to touch the processor also as Canon did not.
It's a very weird choice indeed.

The worst is that the recording time did not increase despite a actual thermal measurement completely acceptable for any electronic component.

The most acceptable explanation is that Canon put a timer to stop recording anyway after a certain duration, whatsoever the temperature.
IT may explain why there is no thermal management on the design. 
If the recording time is always cut off, there is no need to go for something sophisticated.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 13, 2020)

visionrouge.net said:


> The worst is that the recording time did not increase despite a actual thermal measurement completely acceptable for any electronic component.
> The most acceptable explanation is that Canon put a timer to stop recording anyway after a certain duration, whatsoever the temperature.
> IT may explain why there is no thermal management on the design.
> If the recording time is always cut off, there is no need to go for something sophisticated.



you've been listening to EOSHD too much.

you do realize that a heat sink in a sealed space, and a CPU in a sealed space will heat up to the ambient air temperature in the sealed space the same? the core temperatures will be the same?

a heat sink makes zero difference when there's no airflow.


----------



## analoggrotto (Aug 13, 2020)

I used to enjoy Andrew Reid's commentary and articles but I worry that eoshd may now have come down with a case of Canon Derangement Syndrome.


----------



## visionrouge.net (Aug 13, 2020)

canonnews said:


> you do realize that a heat sink in a sealed space, and a CPU in a sealed space will heat up to the ambient air temperature in the sealed space the same? the core temperatures will be the same?
> 
> a heat sink makes zero difference when there's no airflow.


Airflow if the best to cool down, I will be agree on that, but this metal part is still useful to bring heat all over the body and increase the overall air exchange with the outside air.

Any heat sink will help reducing temperature exchange and avoid a very hot spot which could be dramatic.

I have such metal part on top of my computer SSD, and there is no airflow from the fan there. It's designed by DELL. You can clearly see the pad and the metal part on top of it. There is a plastic cover on top of this, so no air is actually running around.

I also design time-lapse system without any cooling and adding such pad between the warm spot to diffuse it all over the enclosure clearly helps reducing heat.
My electronic is completely sealed.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 13, 2020)

visionrouge.net said:


> Airflow if the best to cool down, I will be agree on that, but this metal part is still useful to bring heat all over the body and increase the overall air exchange with the outside air.
> 
> Any heat sink will help reducing temperature exchange and avoid a very hot spot which could be dramatic.



Yes, but once that air heats up, even the heat sink will heat up and the two will reach the same temperature. Once that does, it stays there. the cool down time will be very long. in the end, it doesn't buy you much. The delta T between that and the outside ambient temperature will slowly decrease over time, with or without a heat sink. Heat sinks are good for spiky heat - but sustained heat such as recording for minutes of video? it's not going to work. yes ideally, spreading the heat over the camera body is the ideal solution, however, I"m not convinced they are entirely legally allowed to do that.

On top of that, the cards are a major source of heat - this which we know because the damned camera records for hours without the cards in.

A camera is not going to run super hot. It simply can't .. again, something EOSHD can't comprehend, you're not going to run it much past 50C because of the thermal characteristics of a CMOS sensor and the fact that people have to hold these cameras in their hands for long durations of time.

If you have active cooling and/or are allowed to actively shunt as much heat as possible to the outside, then your design rules are different.

Also - be aware that the temperature reading that Andrew is using is what Canon calls the "EFIC temp" which is for speedlights and lens interface, and not the core CPU cores, or even sensor. There is a correlation, but that depends on body design. In other words, it's not like measuring core temp on a processor.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 13, 2020)

Greywind said:


> Then it's hard to explain why thermal pads on RAM then? And it's still better to have the heat on PCB than on CPU. The solder lead can withstand at least 200 Celsius and up to 350 depend on the type they use. Components like resistors, coils, capacitor could withstand the heat better than CPU.


what are you talking about here? MTBF significantly degrades with temperature increase.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 13, 2020)

visionrouge.net said:


> Actually, there is a metal layer between the pad and the second board on top.


An RF shield?



visionrouge.net said:


> So, the 2 pads ARE thermal pad. The guy who open it even added some thermal paste to touch the processor also as Canon did not.
> It's a very weird choice indeed.
> 
> The worst is that the recording time did not increase despite a actual thermal measurement completely acceptable for any electronic component.


I don't see why it should have increased. I'd say it's lucky that it _didn't decrease_.



visionrouge.net said:


> The most acceptable explanation is that Canon


...has better understanding of thermal management of their cameras than some random "Chinese engineers".


----------



## bbb34 (Aug 13, 2020)

Seeing the pictures, I think most of the heat load is conducted by the metal layers in the PCBs.


----------



## HarryFilm (Aug 13, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> How expensive is the LI-9000 (let's ignore the costs to implement it into a body)? And how big would the tile need to be at 5mm thickness?
> 
> Then you would need to factor in multiple copper pipes (CFE, Digic, Memory, Not sure whether you can for the sensor given IBIS), so at least 3 copper pipes)?
> 
> ...




===

Okie Dokie! I did some further asking of our mechanical and materials engineers.

The LI-900 silica heat sink manufacturing costs in Canadian dollars at our own facility requires $75,000 for cryogenically-hardened Tool Steel machined mold that has a 10 by 10 part matrix (i.e. 100 heat sinks in one mold) which takes about 48 hours to CNC-machine properly to 1/10,000th of an inch tolerances (2.5 microns) and then we cryogenically surface harden the tool steel mold by dipping the mold into liquid helium for a specified period of time.

The ceramic matrix interior composite which is a very poor conductor of heat BUT is able to ABSORB a very high number of Joules per hour per cubic millimetre costs us $30 CAN ($23 US) per stamped/baked part. The thin outer heat shield layer is silicon/boron composite which prevents heat from radiating from the interior is another $10 to bake it on at a 1.5mm or 2mm thick layer.

Then you need to run solid copper heat transfer pipes from the parts being cooled (i.e. the CPU, RAM, memory cards, battery, etc) into the middle of the ceramic matrix composite thermal absorbent compound and ANOTHER separate set of heat pipes (i.e. with a gap in between the other set of heat input pipes) that runs from the interior out to a 2 cm square copper plate (or other thermal transfer metal plate material) that is at the bottom of the camera so it dissipates the ABSORBED heat over a long period of time to the outer camera surface.

For strength reasons (i.e. the LI-900 tile is quite weak structurally), we encase the entire tile in high strength heat resistant HDPE (High Density Polyethylene) plastic which melts at about 270 Celcius. Since the magnesium body of the Canon R5 camera has a DIFFERENT thermal expansion coefficient than the ceramic heat sink, you also have to "float" the entire heat sink within the R5 body usually via attaching it to the internal body via flexible silicone rubber gaskets.

AND....after a bit more in-depth of a look-see at the R5 camera tear down, the copper heat transfer pipes MUST be a minimum of 3mm diameter going from the copper plates attached to the CPU's and other hot parts AND that means there MUST be at least 3 mm thick surrounding encasement of heat-keeping ceramic matrix composite on all sizes. The key point is that the ceramic tile and copper heat pipe creates a large thermal differential between the CPU's (and other hot parts!) which gets ABSORBED into the interior ceramic matrix composite of the heat sink tile which continuously absorbs heats but POORLY radiates it.

That heat slowly and eventually finds itself moving over and transferring to the second set of embedded ceramic-gapped output copper heat transfer pipes which then moves the heat out to the 2 cm square metal heat output block on the bottom of the camera.

The thermal mass of the interior ceramic is such that almost 5 million joules of heat (about 60 watts) can be kept within and NOT pass through the outer 2mm thick heat shield layer for up to 24 hours! By covering BOTH sets of copper input and output heat transfer pipe with a thin layer of heat shield ceramic (i.e. a one-mm thick layer of silicon/boron), the heat STAYS in the pipes as it transfers from the hot CPU into the ceramic interior of the heat sink for a long period of time ranging from 12 to 24 hours.

That absorbed heat eventually saturates the heat sink and that thermal energy MUST SLOWLY migrate over to the second set of embedded heat pipes which then moves the heat outwards to the bottom-of-camera radiative thermal plate while the camera is working AND when it is shut off.

Along with the outer heat shield layer, it means a 10 cm by 6 cm by 15 mm thick (total weight is around 200 grams worth of ceramic and copper pipe) of LI-900 tile could easily ABSORB the 160,000 Joules per hour the Canon DIGIC CPU's and other hot parts tend to give off as heat. AND ... it could absorb it for about 12 hours to 24 hours for my estimate at FULL DCI 8k 30 fps and DCI 4K 120 fps continuous recording before the camera would start to get really warm to the touch.

The Total Cost for LI-900 tile-like material plus copper plates and embedded copper heat transfer pipes and ceramic heat shield outer layer plus HDPE casing is $120 Canadian per part or about $90 US at a run of 5000 heat sink parts. The cryo-hardened molds tend to lasts for about 20,000+ stampings so that's two million camera heat sinks. Not too bad at all for a mere $75,000 worth of tool steel and CNC machining/cryo-hardening!

If Canon does a run of 100,000 heat sink parts per order, that cost drops STEEPLY to about $60 US per heat sink tile and copper piping because you can buy copper and ceramic matrix powder at a discount at those volumes!!!

SO YES! Canon could EASILY do this! They don't even need to use expensive silica ceramic composite matrix as the heat absorbent material for the tile. Just use the SAME ceramic material used in electrical resistors that you buy for 25 cents! With some Canon Research and Development scientists and elbow grease, they could bring down the cost of adding a SUPERB 12 to 24 hour endurance super heat sink into an R5 or R1 camera down to less than $25 US!

I would be more than HAPPY to pay an extra $25 to get a slightly thicker Canon R5 and R1dx with such 12 to 24 hour DCI 8K / 120 fps 4k video recording heat wicking capability AND its weather sealing kept intact!

GO DO IT CANON !!!

You've GOT the technology AND the scientists!

YES YOU CAN DO IT CANON !!!

V


P.S. I just realized you also NEED encase the INTERIOR of the battery compartment AND the insides of the memory card slots with uncoated copper or aluminum thermal transfer plate so as to wick lots of heat away from the heated-up battery and memory card via direct contact heat transfer into the heat sink tile using copper heat transfer pipes that are round or flat ribbon in form AND have been coated with silicon/boron heat shield layering. Canon can do some thermal transfer modelling in CATIA CAD/CAM/FEA software (or whatever they use for 3D CAD!) to ensure that the heat transfers into the heat sink quickly, stays there and transfers only slowly out to the bottom of the camera.

V


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 13, 2020)

Cryhavoc said:


> True but thermal paste can dry and loose its transfer ability over time. Not good to build in a maintenance item that would require a trip to the service facility in 5 years. High content silver paste requires many heat/cool down cycles before it becomes most effective. Head pads are the least invasive method to allow a good contact medium inside a camera.


Canon could have used Graphite pads with improved conductivity instead of the thick ones that are seen right now. Though in that case they would have had to increase thickness of the mag body just enough to make good contact with the heat generating components.


----------



## Stu_bert (Aug 14, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> Okie Dokie! I did some further asking of our mechanical and materials engineers.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for the additional information, very interesting!

You should share with Canon - not cause I think they will retrofit it - just they might consider it for future products. Thanks again.


----------



## Greywind (Aug 14, 2020)

canonnews said:


> what are you talking about here? MTBF significantly degrades with temperature increase.


My point is the camera is heated anyway then CPU should have the priority on heat dissipation over other components, except the sensor.
And MTBF degrades with temperature increase then Canon should improve the heat dissipation then? 2 hours completely turn off to back to cold start is just weird.
Please reminds that even your oven could not hole the thermal that good. You could try this at home, turn the oven to 60-70 Celsius (the temperature when recording 8K) for 30min, then turn it off and measure after 1 hour, 2 hours.


----------



## koenkooi (Aug 14, 2020)

Greywind said:


> My point is the camera is heated anyway then CPU should have the priority on heat dissipation over other components, except the sensor.
> And MTBF degrades with temperature increase then Canon should improve the heat dissipation then? 2 hours completely turn off to back to cold start is just weird.
> Please reminds that even your oven could not hole the thermal that good. You could try this at home, turn the oven to 60-70 Celsius (the temperature when recording 8K) for 30min, then turn it off and measure after 1 hour, 2 hours.



When I turn off my oven it starts actively venting the hot air. That fan stays on for quite a while.


----------



## zim (Aug 14, 2020)

Greywind said:


> My point is the camera is heated anyway then CPU should have the priority on heat dissipation over other components, except the sensor.
> And MTBF degrades with temperature increase then Canon should improve the heat dissipation then? 2 hours completely turn off to back to cold start is just weird.
> Please reminds that even your oven could not hole the thermal that good. You could try this at home, turn the oven to 60-70 Celsius (the temperature when recording 8K) for 30min, then turn it off and measure after 1 hour, 2 hours.


I don't think my oven goes down that low


----------



## HarryFilm (Aug 15, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Wow, thanks for the additional information, very interesting!
> 
> You should share with Canon - not cause I think they will retrofit it - just they might consider it for future products. Thanks again.




Down below is an attached JEPG image that details an OPEN SOURCE hardware design under GPL-3 licence terms that is for a general purpose heat sink applicable to still cameras, video cameras, smartphones, tablets, standalone computers, embedded devices and peripherals with ALL them being of any form factor and design!

You can use multiple thermal conductor and/or thermal insulator materials which SHOULD BE MATCHED to the thermal radiation rates of the components, the heat transfer pipe/plate pathways and the desired amount of thermal storage capacity for the camera runtime required.

Again .... THIS IS AN OPEN SOURCE GPL-3 hardware design created by me on August 13, 2020 and is free for use under open source GL-3 licence terms!

OF COURSE YOU MUST DO YOUR OWN THERMAL ANALYSIS, SIMULATION AND TESTING before you make your products using this or derived design available for sale or use as this design is a mere unfinished testing and design prototype and has NO WARRANTY and NO expressed or implied fitness-for-use made by me HarryFilm! This means Use and/or Modify it at your Own Risk and Own liability! I ain't responsible in any form or manner for what happens!

V


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## AlanF (Aug 15, 2020)

Harry
I have completely misunderstood your design and its concepts. The LI-900 you propose to use is a a very efficient insulator of very low thermal capacity, so it isn't a heat sink, it just greatly slows down heat transfer without absorbing heat. If it surrounds copper, it will keep the copper hot, and if the copper is in contact with the heat producing components, it will keep them hot. So please explain what is going on so even I can understand it. 
Thanks


----------



## Greywind (Aug 15, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I know you signed up just a few days ago and this shit is all you post about. Hope Sony is paying you well.


Well, currently I do paid works with a Nikon Z6 and a D800, film cameras for hobby includes Canon F-1New, AE-1 which is FD, EOS-1 which is EF and a AF35M which is Canon PnS.
I have other cameras of different brands but I think you don't really care about those. I do camera repair both film and digital as side job, and of course have stripped down some Canons to their shutter blades and mirror box.
I used to have some Sony actually about 1 year ago and have Canon DSLR from time to time.
Is that enough for you to stop blindly giving people name tag ?
Is this a forum where people share their opinions or anything not-praising Canon is considered hostile?


----------



## Greywind (Aug 15, 2020)

zim said:


> I don't think my oven goes down that low


Mine got 50 and 75 Celsius mode. Well I don't think it's that accurate but generally in that ballpark.



koenkooi said:


> When I turn off my oven it starts actively venting the hot air. That fan stays on for quite a while.


Mine does not have fan but I forgot my pizza there for 1-2 hours, it's quite cold when come out.


----------



## Greywind (Aug 15, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Yes, but once that air heats up, even the heat sink will heat up and the two will reach the same temperature. Once that does, it stays there. the cool down time will be very long. in the end, it doesn't buy you much. The delta T between that and the outside ambient temperature will slowly decrease over time, with or without a heat sink. Heat sinks are good for spiky heat - but sustained heat such as recording for minutes of video? it's not going to work. yes ideally, spreading the heat over the camera body is the ideal solution, however, I"m not convinced they are entirely legally allowed to do that.
> 
> On top of that, the cards are a major source of heat - this which we know because the damned camera records for hours without the cards in.
> 
> ...


True that the CPU's core temp is different with what you can measure on its surface. There are some sensor inside the CPU package providing those info. 
I'm just unsure the Temperature in the EXIF of JPEG file point to which part of the camera.
And Andrew keep complaining about CPU surround by RAMs while it's quite a general design not only in camera but in PC and phone, to maximize speed, minimize interference.
But, after seeing Sigma Fp, I think there are other way to work out the heat which Canon could apply for R5. Sigma Fp do RAW internal, fullframe 4K with much smaller body size compare to R5.


----------



## Kit. (Aug 15, 2020)

Greywind said:


> My point is the camera is heated anyway then CPU should have the priority on heat dissipation over other components, except the sensor.


Where can the CPU dissipate the heat in a weathersealed body, except toward the sensor?



Greywind said:


> And MTBF degrades with temperature increase then Canon should improve the heat dissipation then? 2 hours completely turn off to back to cold start is just weird.


Maybe because it's not true? DPReview says that half an hour is enough.


----------



## adigoks (Aug 15, 2020)

i have some speculation that i want to share

the other major source of heat could be from voltage regulator or VRM. this module is needed to regulate voltage & electric current to other component such as CPU, RAM, Storage, etc.

this part is gonna be hot all te time while the system is on. in PC you can find it on motherboard around the CPU socket and on Graphic Card .
those VRMs are usually covered by heatsink like this






or in Graphic Card it looks like this





if not cooled properly VRM can become hotter than the other electronic parts like CPU,GPU or RAM.



after searching for canon tear down image. in canon R5 , one of the VRM is located in here





the specification about R5's VRM can be found here

i hope someone can confirm it . also i hope someone can make some minor customization to cover it with termal pad + thin aluminium/copper plate to see if its help or not.


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## Greywind (Aug 15, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Where can the CPU dissipate the heat in a weathersealed body, except toward the sensor?
> 
> 
> Maybe because it's not true? DPReview says that half an hour is enough.


Weather sealed is different from heat sealed, think about your cooker, heat transmit quite well through there but it's quite weather-sealed if your lid is closed properly.
After 30min, you could record high quality again, but not up to the 25-30min that Canon state, you will get like 2-5min something after 30min rest (completely off).


----------



## Kit. (Aug 15, 2020)

Greywind said:


> Weather sealed is different from heat sealed, think about your cooker, heat transmit quite well through there but it's quite weather-sealed if your lid is closed properly.


Not quite getting the analogy. Are you saying that a watersealed camera could conduct heat better if it were immersed in water instead of being handheld?



Greywind said:


> After 30min, you could record high quality again, but not up to the 25-30min that Canon state, you will get like 2-5min something after 30min rest (completely off).


Again, that's not what DPReview is saying.


----------



## Greywind (Aug 15, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Not quite getting the analogy. Are you saying that a watersealed camera could conduct heat better if it were immersed in water instead of being handheld?
> 
> 
> Again, that's not what DPReview is saying.


Well, a lot of other sources disagree with Dpreview then.
As for weather sealed and heat, what I mean is in 3 ways of heat transfer: conduction, convaction, radiation. Weathersealing reduce convaction to minimum, but it does not neccessary reduce conduction.


----------



## pulseimages (Aug 16, 2020)

BigAntTVProductions said:


> Would adding thermal paste help the camera ?


Does Elmer's Glue make that?


----------



## lawny13 (Aug 16, 2020)

Haha... I think accusers of canon regarding this overheating thing are going overboard, and are just forgetting to look at things in relative terms when I comes to purchasing. What is the number one rule when considering a product and it’s value?? Compare it to other products on the market.

1. The R5 can do everything the A7R4 and Z7 can do in terms of video without overheating, and more(albeit with the overheating and limitations).

2. Want better video specs and this want to compare it to the A7SIII?? Fine do so. But the A7SIII is the opposite of the R5z great for video but worse for stills (12MP).

So, besides complaining that the R5 isn’t a unicorn, what is the best option for you? A7R4, Z7, A7SIII, or R5???? Cause those are the options right?


----------



## lawny13 (Aug 16, 2020)

Greywind said:


> Well, a lot of other sources disagree with Dpreview then.
> As for weather sealed and heat, what I mean is in 3 ways of heat transfer: conduction, convaction, radiation. Weathersealing reduce convaction to minimum, but it does not neccessary reduce conduction.



But how are you proposing to perform this conduction? Doesn’t sound like you are considering this like an engineer.

Sure you can cool the body... but you would still have to properly conduct the heat from the sensor to the body well. But bear in mind that even if this were the case, the path would be a two way street.

Say that you had thermal paste on the processor, and a food heat pipe connected to it leading it to be hard coupled to a copper body. Then the heat from your hands holding the camera, and external environment would also transfer heat to the processor. Additionally it can be a hazard of the amount of heat from the processor got too high. Like my old Mac used to get up to 100 C on a hot day before shutting I self off. It got fairly toasty.

I am fairly sure canon considered all the various possibilities, and converged on this.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 16, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> Haha... I think accusers of canon regarding this overheating thing are going overboard, and are just forgetting to look at things in relative terms when I comes to purchasing. What is the number one rule when considering a product and it’s value?? Compare it to other products on the market.
> 
> 1. The R5 can do everything the A7R4 and Z7 can do in terms of video without overheating, and more(albeit with the overheating and limitations).
> 
> ...



Under many if not most circumstances the R5 is as good or better a video camera as the A7SIII. Yes, there are some ways it is worse.

From what I have heard there is NO way in which the A7SIII is a better or equal camera for stills, than the R5.

Conclusion: If you absolutely MUST take unlimited length takes or frequent short takes in very high quality video modes, at least those that the A7SIII offers (it doesn't offer as many), then buy the A7SIII. Otherwise, get an R5 or R6.


----------



## SteveC (Aug 16, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> But how are you proposing to perform this conduction? Doesn’t sound like you are considering this like an engineer.
> 
> Sure you can cool the body... but you would still have to properly conduct the heat from the sensor to the body well. But bear in mind that even if this were the case, the path would be a two way street.
> 
> ...



+1 I don't know of any passive system that is a heat diode, allowing heat to travel in only one direction. Though I suppose a Peltier could be considered passive (no moving mechanical parts, but it does consume electricity).


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## analoggrotto (Aug 16, 2020)

Calling this an autopsy is also quite misleading and degrading to the camera who's wait lists are still growing.


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## SteveC (Aug 16, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> Calling this an autopsy is also quite misleading and degrading to the camera who's wait lists are still growing.



Yes it aint dead.

Well, maybe the one he opened is dead, but it wasn't dead before he opened it. "Vivisection" would have been a better word for it.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Aug 17, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> Haha... I think accusers of canon regarding this overheating thing are going overboard, and are just forgetting to look at things in relative terms when I comes to purchasing. What is the number one rule when considering a product and it’s value?? Compare it to other products on the market.
> 
> 1. The R5 can do everything the A7R4 and Z7 can do in terms of video without overheating, and more(albeit with the overheating and limitations).
> 
> ...



A camera that is STILL first, but the only stills camera that has 8K.


----------



## HarryFilm (Aug 17, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Harry
> I have completely misunderstood your design and its concepts. The LI-900 you propose to use is a a very efficient insulator of very low thermal capacity, so it isn't a heat sink, it just greatly slows down heat transfer without absorbing heat. If it surrounds copper, it will keep the copper hot, and if the copper is in contact with the heat producing components, it will keep them hot. So please explain what is going on so even I can understand it.
> Thanks




OOOOPS !!!! --- I must bow down to your notes about the problems with my earlier proposed heat sink design.

I put it out there for giggles mostly until my actual degree-carrying colleague reviewed it on the weekend and made it known to me after noting your detail that yes the LI-900 fibrous silica tile material would be an insulator of the copper heat transfer plates and pipes and would stay hot as will the components such as CPU, RAM, memory card, battery, etc.

It seems if you use FIBROUS silica (or any other fibrous material), very little heat transfer would take place as it becomes an insulator. The heat transfer would NOT be fast enough from the component to the interior of the heat sink to cool the CPUs and/or any other camera components just as you outlined earlier!

My earlier design would ONLY WORK once temperatures quite exceeded hundreds of degrees kinda frying the camera cpus. Evidently, this design, if you used LI-900 as the heat sink material, ONLY WORKS for spacecraft or for environments where huge heat differentials are required for the LI-900 tile to act heat-sink-like. (i.e in excess of 500 Celcius!).

You need to use a more modern thermally conductive material such as those below as the thermally absorbent interior heat sink material:

Diamond – 2000 – 2200 W/m•K. ...
Silver – 429 W/m•K. ...
Copper – 398 W/m•K. ...
Gold – 315 W/m•K. ...
Aluminum nitride – 310 W/m•K. ...
Silicon carbide – 270 W/m•K. ...
Aluminum – 247 W/m•K. ...
Tungsten – 173 W/m•K.
Graphite 168 W/m•K
Zinc 116 W/m•K

or

Carbon-Carbon Ceramic Composite
Borosilicate Glass
Fire Brick Compound
Porcelain Ceramic

Anyways, a revised version of the design is noted with the changes using more contemporary heat sink material such as actual Carbon-Carbon composite, Solid BoroSilicate Glass or even Fire Brick or Porcelain ceramic compounds!

Soooooo, I DO MUST SAY OOOOPS! That was my earlier mistake!

P.S. Hey Canon! WHERE is our f/4-to-f/5.6 135mm-to-650mm Sports Zoom Lens in RF, EF mount and PL mount? (along a removable rocker-switch zoom/iris/focus servo motor handgrip!)


Oh Well --- ONTO THE NEXT DESIGN OF MINE! ;-)  ;-)

V


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## analoggrotto (Aug 17, 2020)

Canon, where's the pixel shift feature? I want to see what that sensor can really do!


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## BeenThere (Aug 17, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> Canon, where's the pixel shift feature? I want to see what that sensor can really do!


A feature without much practical significance. I doubt it would see much use on a 45 Mpixel sensor Camera.


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## analoggrotto (Aug 17, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> A feature without much practical significance. I doubt it would see much use on a 45 Mpixel sensor Camera.


It's a party trick but looks awesome on the A7R4. I like to do night time extended exposures from time to time and could make good use of it


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## Greywind (Aug 17, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> But how are you proposing to perform this conduction? Doesn’t sound like you are considering this like an engineer.
> 
> Sure you can cool the body... but you would still have to properly conduct the heat from the sensor to the body well. But bear in mind that even if this were the case, the path would be a two way street.
> 
> ...


You may overestimate the "two ways street". Your hand's temperature is under 37 C most of the time, the environment's should be even lower .etc
The inner temperature of camera ranging from 42-67C (according to EOSHD, but take it as grain of salt). So the inner is always hotter and heat from hot to cold, not the other way.
Unless you use your camera near a volcano, or in Sahara, of course.
The only normal scenario that heat conduction make external heat flow inside camera I could think of is having sunlight directly on the camera but it's a small use case and could be avoided.
Take a look at Sigma Fp, it uses its case for heat dissipation, and though much smaller it does not overheat when do 4K, RAW, internal record.
I also believe that Canon engineer should know more than me, and could do better than Sigma, but they don't, or not yet.


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## lawny13 (Aug 18, 2020)

Greywind said:


> You may overestimate the "two ways street". Your hand's temperature is under 37 C most of the time, the environment's should be even lower .etc
> The inner temperature of camera ranging from 42-67C (according to EOSHD, but take it as grain of salt). So the inner is always hotter and heat from hot to cold, not the other way.
> Unless you use your camera near a volcano, or in Sahara, of course.
> The only normal scenario that heat conduction make external heat flow inside camera I could think of is having sunlight directly on the camera but it's a small use case and could be avoided.
> ...


Inadmissible that I thought of the Sigma Fp. But basically I concluded that it was comparing apples to oranges. You seem to be implying that the sigma wouldn’t overheat if it were doing 4k120p or 8k or oversampled 4K full width???

Sorry but that is rubbish. If you look at the specs of the sigma it is a 24 MP camera, and it doesn’t give you 4k60p or any of the video modes that the R5 overheats in. Not at all.

Short of someone showing me a 3D thermal simulation of both cameras to prove that one cooling solution is better than the other I simply won’t buy that one is better than the other.

I work as a mechanical designer for earth observation instruments. It is for this reason why I am a little allergic for arm chair engineers to claim that those designing a product somehow botched things. You start of with a given set of parameters, a budget and a deadline and you aim for it. You aren’t allowed to chase some golden product cause you will very likely end up overshooting some of those parameters.

like did you see how much space there was in the year down? Think sigma’s sort of passive grill approach would have worked here? Just look at the geometry. The Sigma doesn’t even have an EVF.


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## Greywind (Aug 18, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> Inadmissible that I thought of the Sigma Fp. But basically I concluded that it was comparing apples to oranges. You seem to be implying that the sigma wouldn’t overheat if it were doing 4k120p or 8k or oversampled 4K full width???
> 
> Sorry but that is rubbish. If you look at the specs of the sigma it is a 24 MP camera, and it doesn’t give you 4k60p or any of the video modes that the R5 overheats in. Not at all.
> 
> ...


At least Sigma show that high quality 4K 30p RAW would not overheat in smaller form-factor. And you don't use VF much while video recording. And about 24MP of Fp, R6's overheating situation is even worse than R5 with 20MP.
I don't know whether with adding passive grill, if design as good as Sigma, could R5 do 8K or 4k120p non-overheating, but 4K HQ non-overheating would be within reach. And even 8K or 4K120p would have longer recording time and much lower cooldown time.


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## lawny13 (Aug 18, 2020)

Greywind said:


> At least Sigma show that high quality 4K 30p RAW would not overheat in smaller form-factor. And you don't use VF much while video recording. And about 24MP of Fp, R6's overheating situation is even worse than R5 with 20MP.
> I don't know whether with adding passive grill, if design as good as Sigma, could R5 do 8K or 4k120p non-overheating, but 4K HQ non-overheating would be within reach. And even 8K or 4K120p would have longer recording time and much lower cooldown time.



oh? Within reach? What are you basing this on if I may ask? Cause somehowI think you aren’t fully appreciating whatI said in the first place.

Like your comment about not needing EVF for video... remember I said parameters need to be addressed? Your EVF comment kills any point in discussing this with you further cause the R6 and R5 are first and by far STILLS CAMERAS first.

I spend the day with the kids at the zoo on a bright day shooting the R5. It would have been absolute crap without an EVF and shooting the sigma 150-600 adapter to it.

As for your comment on the R6. The same applies, parameters. I am not going to start making assumptions regarding what the engineers encountered and the choices they had to make during the design. ButI do know that the R6 does 20 fps in e-shutter mode with very well controlled rolling shutter indicating high readout speeds, which means more heat. It also has IBIS (does the sigma FP). Not to mention it is pretty much a mini 1DXIII at the price point of $2.4k, and thus I am not surprised if some compromises needed to be made to get it there.The R6 is by far a better still camera than the FP. I mean consider that the FP doesn’t even have a mechanical shutter making it very bad for stills.

I would have to judge the R6 against things like the A7III and Z6 because those had the same design intent. And I honestly haven’t looked at that cause I was interested in the R5.


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 18, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> Inadmissible that I thought of the Sigma Fp. But basically I concluded that it was comparing apples to oranges. You seem to be implying that the sigma wouldn’t overheat if it were doing 4k120p or 8k or oversampled 4K full width???
> 
> Sorry but that is rubbish. If you look at the specs of the sigma it is a 24 MP camera, and it doesn’t give you 4k60p or any of the video modes that the R5 overheats in. Not at all.
> 
> ...



R6 is only 20MP and overheats.


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 18, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> oh? Within reach? What are you basing this on if I may ask? Cause somehowI think you aren’t fully appreciating whatI said in the first place.
> 
> Like your comment about not needing EVF for video... remember I said parameters need to be addressed? Your EVF comment kills any point in discussing this with you further cause the R6 and R5 are first and by far STILLS CAMERAS first.
> 
> ...



and the FIRST "stills" camera to put in 8K, because hey, that is what make a stills camera so great. No other stills camera has a VIDEO feature so great. Makes TOTAL sense....gimmick...


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## Stu_bert (Aug 19, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> R6 is only 20MP and overheats.


Did you say you were thinking of buying an R6 or am I just imaging that?


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## Stu_bert (Aug 19, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> and the FIRST "stills" camera to put in 8K, because hey, that is what make a stills camera so great. No other stills camera has a VIDEO feature so great. Makes TOTAL sense....gimmick...


Fine, for you it is a gimmick. Canon decided they wanted to include it. Don't buy it. Don't buy the R6 if it doesnt suit your needs. Every manufacturer is completely honest and transparent about every product they produce. Whatever company you work for, I am sure they are the same. Perfect products which has made them market leaders.... 

Honestly, what are you hoping to achieve here in this forum?

Have you fed back to Canon that you are dissatisfied with their new products? Constructively?

I have fed back some concerns based on my use of the R5. I will be interested in their reply. I am conducting testing of it for my use-cases. And ultimately I will decide if that makes the R5 worth it. Others, like you will do the same....


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## Stu_bert (Aug 19, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> I work as a mechanical designer for earth observation instruments. It is for this reason why I am a little allergic for arm chair engineers to claim that those designing a product somehow botched things. You start of with a given set of parameters, a budget and a deadline and you aim for it. You aren’t allowed to chase some golden product cause you will very likely end up overshooting some of those parameters.


To be fair, it is a forum on a rumours site. When qualified people share their views, i do tend to attach more weight to them. For some of the rest of us, I think we just want to try and fix something, even though in truth we probably can’t. 

You’re probably going to get quite frustrated here, sorry!


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## Greywind (Aug 19, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> oh? Within reach? What are you basing this on if I may ask? Cause somehowI think you aren’t fully appreciating whatI said in the first place.
> 
> Like your comment about not needing EVF for video... remember I said parameters need to be addressed? Your EVF comment kills any point in discussing this with you further cause the R6 and R5 are first and by far STILLS CAMERAS first.
> 
> ...


Calm down. 
First thing first, R5/R6 is very good still camera, nobody argue about that so far.
Second, "overheating" does not show any impact in taking stills, therefore is non-issue when taking photos.

And "overheating" is what impact/hinder/restrict video recording. Therefore, the context of the discussion is about video recording. And I don't see much use case of EVF in video recording, I stated about that in my previous post : "you don't use VF MUCH while video recording". There might be some use case but not the majority. And that's in video recording context. 
And about assumptions, we discuss possibility based on common knowledge, based on trusted reviewer, based on available product. It's not 100% precise but it's creditable.
For example, Gerald Undone show that R5/R6 need a 2 hours resting, completely turn off to fully recovered and get the full video recording advertised. For reference, my boiling kettle (1kW) don't need 2 hours to cooldown from 100 Celsius to drop to room temp. My kettle does not have any special mechanism to cool down. I might do a heat up to 60-70 and test later to much sure how long it needs to 30 (also blocking convaction) if you want something precise. Or you could do that yourself. 
That's a creditable assumption based on trusted source (Gerald Undone) and your own common knowledge (boiling water).
Not so arm chair engineer, I guess.

And of course, if you only shoot STILL, don't care about video limitation then move on, don't pay attention to my post. We have no common interest in discussion.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 19, 2020)

Greywind said:


> At least Sigma show that high quality 4K 30p RAW would not overheat in smaller form-factor. And you don't use VF much while video recording. And about 24MP of Fp, R6's overheating situation is even worse than R5 with 20MP.
> I don't know whether with adding passive grill, if design as good as Sigma, could R5 do 8K or 4k120p non-overheating, but 4K HQ non-overheating would be within reach. And even 8K or 4K120p would have longer recording time and much lower cooldown time.


Well again, to be fair, you’re not sure whether such a design could fit in an r5 without some other compromise. The truth is, we don’t know. Maybe their design is better than Canon for some use cases. Maybe it will influence a future Canon design. People with their wallets will ultimately decide...

Sigma has also delayed their FF foveon camera - again, we don’t know other than it didn’t meet their criteria. Maybe Canon thought theirs achieved their criteria. Purchasers must decide if it meets theirs.

Oh and re VF. Hmmm. For actual videographers, sure. But one might add they are likely to use an external monitor. For a hybrid camera with IBIS I wonder if the EVF might be easier to use than the rear screen. I haven’t tried yet, but I think maybe just like I use the evf for stills I might use it for video....


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## Stu_bert (Aug 19, 2020)

Greywind said:


> Calm down.
> First thing first, R5/R6 is very good still camera, nobody argue about that so far.
> Second, "overheating" does not show any impact in taking stills, therefore is non-issue when taking photos.
> 
> ...


A kettle has a completely different set of design criteria. I’m not sure that’s a good comparison....

It is a discussion forum, but can I ask, are you even a prospective buyer? If no, then what is the basis for your interest?

CFE cards, depending on their manufacturers seem to be designed for max 70-90 degrees operations, thus there is a warning that when used quite a bit, don’t touch it, let it cool down. A lot quicker btw, than your kettle.... 

Maybe the DPR testing thread will identify what is happening but I still doubt it will change much about the r5 - but it is interesting reading.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 19, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> It's a party trick but looks awesome on the A7R4. I like to do night time extended exposures from time to time and could make good use of it


I’ve not read much about it, apols, but how does it cope with moving subject, especially with longer exposures?

Sorry, off topic I know....


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## Greywind (Aug 19, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> A kettle has a completely different set of design criteria. I’m not sure that’s a good comparison....
> 
> It is a discussion forum, but can I ask, are you even a prospective buyer? If no, then what is the basis for your interest?
> 
> ...


A kettle is of course totally a different design, it's just a block of mass not optimizing to dissipate heat at all, or even to keep heat. 
If something have heat to dissipate but disspate heat slower than a kettle then it's either design wrongly or intentionally. 
That's the idea of the comparision. 
And please, when you turn off a camera, CFE not work or should not work. When turn off camera consume very very very low power that you could consider it does not generate heat. If it does, something is wrong here. The comparision with the kettle is just that two heated things got cool down. The R5/R6 need 2 hours, the kettle you could see for yourself. Then you got the idea (in ballpark) how good the thermal design of those cameras is.
And just try to record video while looking thru EVF, you will understand why.


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## analoggrotto (Aug 20, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> I’ve not read much about it, apols, but how does it cope with moving subject, especially with longer exposures?
> 
> Sorry, off topic I know....


It doesent, its for static subjects like architecture. And its useless for anything that even remotely moves. The feature would be highly desirable for the contemplating landscape photographer (as long as the sky and foliage arent moving either). Otherwise, it has very limited use cases, the effect can be simulated with a non shifting camera with multiple slightly offset shots and some photoshop trickery. 

I'm still getting the R5 for stills when my number in line is called, then I can continue selling off my EF gear.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 20, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> It doesent, its for static subjects like architecture. And its useless for anything that even remotely moves. The feature would be highly desirable for the contemplating landscape photographer (as long as the sky and foliage arent moving either). Otherwise, it has very limited use cases, the effect can be simulated with a non shifting camera with multiple slightly offset shots and some photoshop trickery.
> 
> I'm still getting the R5 for stills when my number in line is called, then I can continue selling off my EF gear.


Gotcha, thanks. It was the comment “ night time extended exposures” which made me think they had managed to do something clever to overcome movement. My bad.

I remember Uwe Steinmueller on digital outback photo site championing the high resolution shooting in bursts, never tried it, but thanks for the reminder.


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## Stu_bert (Aug 20, 2020)

Greywind said:


> A kettle is of course totally a different design, it's just a block of mass not optimizing to dissipate heat at all, or even to keep heat.
> If something have heat to dissipate but disspate heat slower than a kettle then it's either design wrongly or intentionally.
> That's the idea of the comparision.
> And please, when you turn off a camera, CFE not work or should not work. When turn off camera consume very very very low power that you could consider it does not generate heat. If it does, something is wrong here. The comparision with the kettle is just that two heated things got cool down. The R5/R6 need 2 hours, the kettle you could see for yourself. Then you got the idea (in ballpark) how good the thermal design of those cameras is.
> And just try to record video while looking thru EVF, you will understand why.


Ok, now I am with you I think....

But we are led to think the R5/R6 have been designed to dissipate heat slowly - whether that is as CanonNews suggested due to an imminent EU law, whether that is because of previous experience with direct sunlight causing problems, or what, we don't know.

Your counter was that the Sigma achieves this in a smaller package without the overheat issues. It can record up to 2h (not sure if that is a battery or card limit or heat), but to UHS II (as SSD although interesting is not so relevant for comparing) it has bitrates up to 1670Mbps which is higher... It is also right on the cusp of what a UHS II can do (210MBps) - based on this link (https://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/r...eme-pro-300-mbs-uhs-ii-64gb-sdxc-memory-card/)

So whether this means the larger sensor, the CFE, the PCIe chipset, the encoding in the R5 vs the Sigma, the case design or all of the "above" contribute - again, we don't truly know.

Btw, armchair refers to someone who doesnt actually do that activity. Armchair Travellers don't travel, Armchair Landscape Photographers don't actually do landscape photography, and thus an armchair engineer doesn't actually design similar solutions to a camera.

Re CFE - sorry, misled you. I meant the CFE card cools considerably quicker than your kettle when either in camera or outside.

Re 2hrs, yes, I am doing tests which do seem to confirm that. Others have found the time may be significantly less (DPR), which is interesting. Btw, a single source, even one who you consider reliable in my book does not equate to "fact". I need several different sources, we are all human...

And as you are a Z6 / D800 shooter, as I asked earlier "but can I ask, are you even a prospective buyer? If no, then what is the basis for your interest? ". It is a forum, you have as much right as anyone here, but as I wrote to Baron_Karza, "what do you hope to achieve here?"


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## Stu_bert (Aug 20, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> It doesent, its for static subjects like architecture. And its useless for anything that even remotely moves. The feature would be highly desirable for the contemplating landscape photographer (as long as the sky and foliage arent moving either). Otherwise, it has very limited use cases, the effect can be simulated with a non shifting camera with multiple slightly offset shots and some photoshop trickery.
> 
> I'm still getting the R5 for stills when my number in line is called, then I can continue selling off my EF gear.


Oops, missed 1 question. Are you selling your EF bodies or lenses as well? Just curious. I will probably offload 5x series bodies & R bodies (just not in HK), but I doubt I will change many EF lenses for an RF equivalent. Not challenging your decision I hasten to add....


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 20, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Fine, for you it is a gimmick. Canon decided they wanted to include it. Don't buy it. Don't buy the R6 if it doesnt suit your needs. Every manufacturer is completely honest and transparent about every product they produce. Whatever company you work for, I am sure they are the same. Perfect products which has made them market leaders....
> 
> Honestly, what are you hoping to achieve here in this forum?
> 
> ...



Thanks for your concern, but I don't need your help to tell me what to purchase and not to purchase. 

Honestly, what are you hoping to achieve by replying directly to my posts?


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## Baron_Karza (Aug 20, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Did you say you were thinking of buying an R6 or am I just imaging that?


yes


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## analoggrotto (Aug 20, 2020)

Stu_bert said:


> Oops, missed 1 question. Are you selling your EF bodies or lenses as well? Just curious. I will probably offload 5x series bodies & R bodies (just not in HK), but I doubt I will change many EF lenses for an RF equivalent. Not challenging your decision I hasten to add....


No worries, I will change everything except my 100mm F2.8L because theres no direct replacement yet and my 200mm F2.0L as it was very expensive and quite perfect. I also have a 300mm F2.8 which is seldom used now so I might as well see how well it works with an R5.


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## visionrouge.net (Aug 21, 2020)

For these interested on the matters,
s 100% sure the overheating shutdown is fake.
Removing the battery cell that hold the time gives plenty f of extra recording time. The overheating shutdown is completely fake and only based on time.


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## Greywind (Aug 21, 2020)

visionrouge.net said:


> For these interested on the matters,
> s 100% sure the overheating shutdown is fake.
> Removing the battery cell that hold the time gives plenty f of extra recording time. The overheating shutdown is completely fake and only based on time.


Good news, but did you do it yourself or some link?


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## visionrouge.net (Aug 21, 2020)

The infamous Andrew... 
I can't post link here without getting banned.
Try "EOSHD" under google
It's actually the same Chinese guy as last time.
There are plenty of new temperature measurement that shows that Canon did a great job at keeping all temp under control.
Just a software that time the video usage to shut it down.


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