# PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?



## beckstoy (Oct 22, 2013)

My cheap-o transmitter (which I paid about 20 bucks for) failed at a really important portion of a bridal shoot last night. Time To Upgrade!

What do you guys use/suggest/endorse? Why?

Thanks in advance! I value everyone's opinions here at CR forums pretty highly (...maybe a mistake..?)


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## Chris Geiger (Oct 22, 2013)

600 EX RTs. I use 4 of them. It's a great system that is much easier/faster to use then external radios.


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## privatebydesign (Oct 22, 2013)

If you are doing it for money the 600-EX-RT, it is well worth the money. I have not had a single flash failure or misfire in a year of shooting with them. Buy once, future proof yourself, get the 600's and don't look back.


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## JohnUSA (Oct 22, 2013)

beckstoy said:


> My cheap-o transmitter (which I paid about 20 bucks for) failed at a really important portion of a bridal shoot last night. Time To Upgrade!
> 
> What do you guys use/suggest/endorse? Why?
> 
> Thanks in advance! I value everyone's opinions here at CR forums pretty highly (...maybe a mistake..?)



What flashes are you using now and how to do you use them?


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## beckstoy (Oct 22, 2013)

I use 580exII's and one Yonguo (sp?) 560II


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## Maxaperture (Oct 22, 2013)

I use YN622 transceivers with 600RT and 580EXll etc on a 5Dlll, they're awesome, even if they were twice the price, AND, you get a focus assist beam.
The assist beam is great if all your flashes are off camera, something the ST-E3 sadly lacks.
Save some money, buy a set of YN622s, and a YN58EXll or two.

We'd all love 1/2 dozen 600RTs though.......


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## wickidwombat (Oct 22, 2013)

personally i use phottix odins

they are not the cheapest but they are the best
the transmitter unit has a really nice large intuitive display screen on the back which lets you control all your flash functionallity and groups etc

they also allow high speed sync with studio strobes this is an undocumented feature but still pretty cool
one cool thing with this is you dont need the expensive odin recievers on the studio light you can just use a much cheaper stratto 2!

then you can mix speedlights and studio lights and do pretty much whatever you like and control the speedlights from the back of the transmitter, the studio lights you cant control as they are hooked up with the 3.5mm audio jack


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## docholliday (Oct 22, 2013)

I use PW tt's - the ability to control lighting ratios from the camera is really nice and with the newest firmware, there hasn't been any misfires. Of course, with 580EXII's, they have interference issues unless you send them to get them modded. I prefer 430EXIIs on all the remotes instead.

Still, nothing beats trading in all the strobes for a set of 600RTs and having the radio's built-in.


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## alexturton (Oct 22, 2013)

I use 580exii's & 430exii's on Pixel Kings. Great for both manual and ETTL ratios. Get the occasional misfire though, but they are dirt cheap.


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## surapon (Oct 22, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> personally i use phottix odins
> 
> they are not the cheapest but they are the best
> the transmitter unit has a really nice large intuitive display screen on the back which lets you control all your flash functionallity and groups etc
> ...



+ 100 for me , Sir
In my Idea past 5-6 months, The Phottix Odin , 1 Transmiter and 4 Receivers are the Best for Me, Lazy Photographer , (who use E-TTL, and E-TTL II, AUTOFLASH IN THE SHOOTING MODES).After I use many High cost and the Cheapo Wireless Flashes control FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.
Yes, I get 98% Best/ Usable Flash Photos from my Phottix Odin.
Surapon


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## Jim Saunders (Oct 22, 2013)

Yuonguo has 600EX-RT clones coming down the pipe that might be worth a look, if not that then get the Canon ones and be done with it - they just plain work.

Jim


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## ScottyP (Oct 25, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> personally i use phottix odins
> 
> they are not the cheapest but they are the best
> the transmitter unit has a really nice large intuitive display screen on the back which lets you control all your flash functionallity and groups etc
> ...



Phottix also allows 2nd curtain sync off camera, which the Canon 600's cannot. Can someone explain how a 3rd party company can make a flash that can do that on a Canon camera, but Canon can't??????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???


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## Jim Saunders (Oct 26, 2013)

ScottyP said:


> Phottix also allows 2nd curtain sync off camera, which the Canon 600's cannot. Can someone explain how a 3rd party company can make a flash that can do that on a Canon camera, but Canon can't??????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???




I expect to see second curtain and wireless zoom in the next generation of Canon flashes. 

Jim


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## privatebydesign (Oct 28, 2013)

Jim Saunders said:


> ScottyP said:
> 
> 
> > Phottix also allows 2nd curtain sync off camera, which the Canon 600's cannot. Can someone explain how a 3rd party company can make a flash that can do that on a Canon camera, but Canon can't??????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???
> ...



I don't, if they were going to introduce those as features then they would have done it with the introduction of the RT system. They chose to go five groups instead of three ( much more useful to me), and built in tranceivers, an industry first.

As for the question " How can a third party introduce a feature the original manufacturer can't?" Well that isn't too difficult, Canon have to commit to full implimentation across all EOS bodies, third parties do not, Canon have to make things work 100% of the time, third parties do not, the people paying the Canon premium expect consistency and reliability, the people buying third party gear are very accepting of compatibility, reliability and consistency "issues".

If Canon can't introduce a feature they feel they can stand behind 100% now and in the future then the bean counters and lawyers won't let them release it. The third parties don't care about the camera system as a whole and really don't care if none of their gear works with next years cameras.


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## Jim Saunders (Oct 28, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Jim Saunders said:
> 
> 
> > I expect to see second curtain and wireless zoom in the next generation of Canon flashes.
> ...



I agree with you on the rest, make no mistake; I stand by my assertion that zoom and wireless second curtain sync will be in the next flash. That may be due to unresolved technical issues or an interest in having something to set the new flash apart, but I have no doubt it'll show up.

Jim


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## wickidwombat (Oct 28, 2013)

surapon said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > personally i use phottix odins
> ...



bahahahaha that rig is amazing!
i made a little rig so i could mount a flash and receiver to the base of the L bracket and use a ray flash ring flash while still firing all my remote lights and controlling it from the odin controller but its nothing like your construction master piece!


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## wickidwombat (Oct 28, 2013)

Jim Saunders said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Jim Saunders said:
> ...



i've never had any issues with remote second curtain sync with my odins what technical issues are you referring to?
I've only experienced 100% success with these things. I've had less reliability with 580ex 2 flashes in the hotshoe or optically slaved as the 580 exII have this tendency to dump full power blasts randomly which they don't seem to do when going through the odins


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## privatebydesign (Oct 28, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> Jim Saunders said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



Ah the internet and crossed conversations. 

I didn't say the Odin had an issue second curtain syncing with your camera and your flash in the old style three group mode, I said Canon probably didn't feel 100% comfortable introducing it in the newer 5 group RT system. I also alluded to any and all third party reverse engineering and work around solutions, not specifically the Odin, lets be honest as far as flash systems go they have a pretty poor record, just look at Pocket Wizard blaming the 580 EX II for their own failings as the best example.

Besides, as you point out in your reply above this one, the Odin solution is not the cheap solution, a 580EX II and an Odin cost more than a 600-EX-RT. So from a price point of view Canon vs Odin becomes a features issue, I value built in manufacturer reliability with five groups and future proofing more than second curtain sync and remote head zooming in a piggybacked old style three group third party solution.

Of course the costs workout differently for people depending on what they have already, but it is all just choices. Quite how Yongnuo expect to sell many YN-600-EX-RT flashes at $400-$450 compared to frequent sales of Canon 600-EX-RT's at $499 I am not quite sure though.

As for being sure the remote zoom and second curtain sync coming in a 610-EX-RT, well I wouldn't say categorically they won't, but even if they did it will, by previous top of the range flash life expectancy, be 5 or 6 years before they do, and as for product differentiation there are a million other things they could do to make the 600 "better" before adopting those two features, besides the lower order flashes are due for makeovers before it is. Electronic control over colour temp would be another groundbreaking first in a Speedlite, zooming to 300mm, not needing a diffuser panel to go super wide, a better implementation of their gel system complete with a good selection of auto setting or chipped gels, smooth detents for angled bounce, I can't be the only one finding the current system inefficient, how about a locking ball type mount you can unlock, position the head and re-lock with one hand? Infinite adjustment and more secure with bigger modifiers. Maybe I should write a white paper for the Canon Speedlite team


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## captainkanji (Oct 28, 2013)

I'm planning to expand my speedlite system next year. I like where the Phottix system is headed. I'm thinking about getting the Odin and a couple of Mitros flashes. Does anyone know if the Mitros has the receivers built in or will I have to get the new Mitros +? Any comments/reviews are appreciated. From what I've seen so far, it's a great system.


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## surapon (Oct 28, 2013)

captainkanji said:


> I'm planning to expand my speedlite system next year. I like where the Phottix system is headed. I'm thinking about getting the Odin and a couple of Mitros flashes. Does anyone know if the Mitros has the receivers built in or will I have to get the new Mitros +? Any comments/reviews are appreciated. From what I've seen so far, it's a great system.



Dear Sir, Mr. captainkanji
+ 10 for Phottix Odin = Wonderful Add on Flash control equipment, BUT, You have to make sure that Can Operated with Mitros Flashes----Because , When I got the New Phottix Odin 8 months ago, They supply the List of Flashes that can use with Odin.
That I only use with my Old Flashes MFG. by Canon. and some of my Old Canon Flashes Since 1999 Work fine with Odin.

Surapon


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## Chris Burch (Oct 28, 2013)

captainkanji said:


> I'm planning to expand my speedlite system next year. I like where the Phottix system is headed. I'm thinking about getting the Odin and a couple of Mitros flashes. Does anyone know if the Mitros has the receivers built in or will I have to get the new Mitros +? Any comments/reviews are appreciated. From what I've seen so far, it's a great system.



The Phottix Mitros speedlights don't have the built-in receivers other than optical TTL. The whole point of the Mitros+ is to introduce built-in receivers. That said, the Mitros+ looks to be pretty pricey for a third-party system. I have been using the Phottix Stratos II triggers for over a year now and can't speak highly enough about them, so I'm def a fan of Phottix, but surprised their new flashes are so pricey. You should definitely wait to see how the new YungNuo gear turns out for performance and price. I suspect they will be really well priced and hopefully as (or even more) solid as all of their previous gear. 

This is an exciting period because the options for remote control of speedlights pretty much didn't exist at all, and now there are lots of options on the horizon. I'll be making the same decision after the YN release myself. My current setup works great, but I would love to have remote manual power control.


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## captainkanji (Oct 29, 2013)

Cool. Thanks for the input. I'm still planning on the Odin system. The 600RTs are too expensive, so I'll probably get the Mitros or some 580ex used and they seem to be 'medium' priced. I don't have any experience with Yongnuo. Maybe if I get more than 2 speedlites and am low on cash I'll get some. I'm trying to get into Manual more anyway. Thanks again everyone. ;D


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## privatebydesign (Oct 29, 2013)

captainkanji said:


> Cool. Thanks for the input. I'm still planning on the Odin system. The 600RTs are too expensive, so I'll probably get the Mitros or some 580ex used and they seem to be 'medium' priced. I don't have any experience with Yongnuo. Maybe if I get more than 2 speedlites and am low on cash I'll get some. I'm trying to get into Manual more anyway. Thanks again everyone. ;D



Do your maths very carefully. 


Two secondhand 580EX II's will run close to $700, a two receiver one transmitter set of Odins will cost around $350, so approximately $1,050 for third party.
Two 600EX-RT's can be bought refurb from Canon with one year warranty and free shipping from as little as $400, some have got them for less, and don't forget there is no warranty on your who knows how well used 580's. An ST-E3-RT will run you $300 or so, for a total of $1,100, or $50 or so dollars difference, for a genuine Canon setup fully warrantied and future proofed.

If you already have the 580's the maths is different, but I sold some of my 550's to buy into the RT system because of the small price differential, the five group option, the warranty, the fact that I could trigger my remotes with an on camera fill (not yet possible without a clumsy workaround with the Odins) and a few other niceties.

Like I say, if you are starting a system, do the maths very carefully if you are going for a controllable radio system.


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## captainkanji (Oct 29, 2013)

Yeah. Looks like an Odin with 2 receivers and one Mitros will run me about $700. I already have the 430exII. It's a good starting point for me and is a bit pricey, but I really want the control options. The Canon system is great, I'm sure, but $1000 is definitely above what I'm willing to pay for now. It's still a while off, as I want to try and get a new 15 Macbook Retina. Gotta work more of that overtime


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## surapon (Oct 29, 2013)

Dear Sir, Mr. captainkanji
Here are the list of the Flashes that can use with Phottix Odin

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.casema.nl%2Fmmuetstege%2FOdin.html

Enjoy.
Surapon


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## captainkanji (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks for that link. It looks like pretty much any of the current Canon will work. The Mitros isn't listed though. The article was probably done before the Mitros was introduced. Phottix's official web site says that all of the Mitros flashes are compatible. The Mitros will also require a receiver. Took some digging as their website isn't very user friendly. Interestingly, most of the Yongnuo's don't work. I'm looking forward to getting some off camera practice next Spring/Summer.


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## ScottyP (Oct 29, 2013)

I just picked up 3 Phottix Mitros+ units for $319.95. Adorama had a super quick sale and dropped the price from $399.95. It must have been a very fast sale and it sold out almost immediately. They are back ordered so it will be 2 weeks before I get them. 

Pretty excited about the built in transmitter/receiver.


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## surapon (Oct 29, 2013)

captainkanji said:


> Thanks for that link. It looks like pretty much any of the current Canon will work. The Mitros isn't listed though. The article was probably done before the Mitros was introduced. Phottix's official web site says that all of the Mitros flashes are compatible. The Mitros will also require a receiver. Took some digging as their website isn't very user friendly. Interestingly, most of the Yongnuo's don't work. I'm looking forward to getting some off camera practice next Spring/Summer.



Dear Sir, Mr. Captainkanji.
One thing = Less than 50 US Dollars that you must have , when you Have Phottix Odin -= Rouge 3-1 Grid.
Please go to see my comment at the Link below, This Rogue will change your life as I did 8 months ago.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=17756.0

Have FUN, Sir,
Surapon


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## jdramirez (Oct 29, 2013)

I had a set of the yongnuo 622c's... and I'm not sure if it was a problem from day one, but one of the devices didn't respond well with ettl and only worked as a manual trigger... but when I had the other on, I had full ettl control. More of an annoyance than a problem.

I returned them... got a new set that works... so just be careful if you expect 100% consistency and reliability.


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## scottkinfw (Oct 29, 2013)

+1


privatebydesign said:


> If you are doing it for money the 600-EX-RT, it is well worth the money. I have not had a single flash failure or misfire in a year of shooting with them. Buy once, future proof yourself, get the 600's and don't look back.


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## steen-ag (Oct 29, 2013)

I use Phottix Odin with 3 receivers. It's perfect that you can set every thing in your Canon flashes, just entering the parameters on the back of Odin.


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## surapon (Oct 29, 2013)

steen-ag said:


> I use Phottix Odin with 3 receivers. It's perfect that you can set every thing in your Canon flashes, just entering the parameters on the back of Odin.




Dear Friend, Mr. Steen-ag.
Please do not forget to up-date Phottix Odin Firmware V 1.24

http://journal.phottix.com/photo-accessory-news/phottix-odin-canon-firmware-update/

Enjoy.
Surapon


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## wickidwombat (Oct 30, 2013)

captainkanji said:


> I'm planning to expand my speedlite system next year. I like where the Phottix system is headed. I'm thinking about getting the Odin and a couple of Mitros flashes. Does anyone know if the Mitros has the receivers built in or will I have to get the new Mitros +? Any comments/reviews are appreciated. From what I've seen so far, it's a great system.



I'm going to pick up a couple of mitros+ flashes in the next week or so when they are available so i'll have some feedback a little while after that. the mitros with no + do not have the receivers built in


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## wickidwombat (Oct 30, 2013)

surapon said:


> steen-ag said:
> 
> 
> > I use Phottix Odin with 3 receivers. It's perfect that you can set every thing in your Canon flashes, just entering the parameters on the back of Odin.
> ...



interesting the are advertising the higher speed sync function now with studio lights even though they have been able to do this for a while now as an undocumented feature


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## blanddragon (Oct 30, 2013)

I too use a Phottix Odin with three remotes on my 430EX IIs. It works great and I don't have any issues. Battery life is excellent and I have yet to have any range issues I've had with other systems. It just works for me. Very happy with them.


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## surapon (Oct 30, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> surapon said:
> 
> 
> > steen-ag said:
> ...



Yes, Sir, Dear Mr. wickidwombat

"ods is Overdrive Sync, a new beta function in the latest firmware. This function allows triggering delay times to be set on an Odin TCU. This can allow an increase in sync speed over standard X-Sync when using studio lights. Don’t get too excited – a number of variables come in to play: Your camera, the studio light, the power level and flash duration of the studio light can all effect the ods function. What works with one brand and model and studio light may not work with another.

A new menu has been added to the Odin – this will allow a triggering delay (in milliseconds) to be set. This takes experimentation to find the “sweet spot” in your set-up."

Yes, You are right on the target, Old News---But they try to make with all Brand name Studio lights.
Have a great day , Sir.
Surapon


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## Old Shooter (Oct 30, 2013)

ScottyP said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > personally i use phottix odins
> ...



Wow, I had no idea the 600EX-RT's wouldn't handle 2nd curtain synch off-camera!


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## privatebydesign (Oct 30, 2013)

Old Shooter said:


> Wow, I had no idea the 600EX-RT's wouldn't handle 2nd curtain synch off-camera!



Canon have never supported remote flash second curtain sync, now or in the past, if you haven't missed it so far I don't see why you should miss it in the future.............

It is a feature that is often pointed out as a serious failing of the two Canon remote systems, but who regularly uses it? Seriously, we can all point to an example or two of its use, but who *needs* it often? (If you are that one or two people please point us to a collection of examples of your uses.)


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## wickidwombat (Oct 30, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Old Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, I had no idea the 600EX-RT's wouldn't handle 2nd curtain synch off-camera!
> ...


no remote second curtain sync is a deal breaker for me
here are some examples


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## wickidwombat (Oct 30, 2013)

heres some more
all unprocessed raws just converted to jpg


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## privatebydesign (Oct 30, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> no remote second curtain sync is a deal breaker for me
> here are some examples



Every single one of those "examples" would look exactly the same with first curtain sync, you are just dragging the shutter, it doesn't make any difference if the flash fires at the beginning or end of the exposure for that type of image.


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## vlad (Oct 30, 2013)

I'm currently selling my 580 II's and PW Flex/Minis, and looking forward to buying Mitros+ to simplify things. Fewer things to carry, batteries to change, etc. If the new system works well, the only thing I will/might miss is using the PW AC3+AC9 to control power output of both speedlites and my alienbee remotely.


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## wickidwombat (Oct 31, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > no remote second curtain sync is a deal breaker for me
> ...


I disagree I find the images sharper using second curtain as the sharp image is exposed over the top of any movement blur not the other way around


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## Old Shooter (Oct 31, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > wickidwombat said:
> ...



That's the way I understand it... My goal is to resurrect my wedding business and I have visualized shots with light trails entering the image and then "popping" the B&G PJ-style... Can't do that with 1st curtain...


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## privatebydesign (Oct 31, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> I disagree I find the images sharper using second curtain as the sharp image is exposed over the top of any movement blur not the other way around



Well you might disagree, but that doesn't make you right. You have two exposures, ambient and flash, the two exposures are exactly the same, the burn in is identical with first or second curtain sync for the same ambient exposure, one is not "on top" of the other as the pixel information relays a two dimensional image, each pixels brightness is the result of the combined two exposures. Further, any movement blur is outside the sharper flash image, the pixels that record the blur are pixels that didn't get any flash exposure, so how can it matter when the flash fired?

There are a couple of good reasons for second curtain sync, but imo your examples are not one.


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## privatebydesign (Oct 31, 2013)

Old Shooter said:


> That's the way I understand it... My goal is to resurrect my wedding business and I have visualized shots with light trails entering the image and then "popping" the B&G PJ-style... Can't do that with 1st curtain...



I have done that many many times with bride and groom dance shots, often I have just used the on camera second curtain sync, until I realsied that unless the way they are dancing is important it doesn't make any difference which way the trails go! Sure for things like cars driving away with lights on from the back (from the front or side imo first curtain looks better anyway) second curtain sync is the way to go, but I have never seen a compelling wedding image that needed second curtain remote sync and there are millions of compelling wedding images out there.


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## ScottyP (Oct 31, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree I find the images sharper using second curtain as the sharp image is exposed over the top of any movement blur not the other way around
> ...



I think if a person is moving in one direction in the shot, the 2nd curtain makes a clearer image because there is a hard sharp leading edge. If the subject is not really moving in one direction, or if they are moving randomly, it would not make a difference. 

But I still can't understand why Canon couldn't make that work. Clearly it is not impossible if any 3rd party can take Canon's own equipment and not seem to struggle with it.


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## bchernicoff (Oct 31, 2013)

surapon, I love your self portrait in the bathroom mirror. If I saw this image in any other context, I would want to know the story behind it!


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## surapon (Oct 31, 2013)

bchernicoff said:


> surapon, I love your self portrait in the bathroom mirror. If I saw this image in any other context, I would want to know the story behind it!




Ha, Ha, Ha---Dear Mr. bchernicoff
Both my wife and My son do not like Photography, and Hard to convince them to shoot my Photos for the DIY.
Yes, I have no choice , and must shoot my self in the Mirror in the office Bath room-----Ha, Ha, Ha.---Sorry.
Nice to talk to you, and THANKSSSS for share your great Photography knowledge with us, and make me know some thing new, more and more.
Have a great day, Sir.
Surapon


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## wickidwombat (Nov 1, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree I find the images sharper using second curtain as the sharp image is exposed over the top of any movement blur not the other way around
> ...



ok it makes a difference WHEN the flash fires because of this
the pixels are like buckets filling up with photons, as you know, since its been done to death on these forums and then some 

so the model will get some exposure by ambient light even when standing in the shadow but this light doesn't fill the buckets very much and all of this exposure is blurry especially at 5 seconds exposure!

so in second curtain, the second exposure by the flash fills the buckets up more and all the light on the model covers all the previous blurred exposure with nice razor sharp exposure from the shadows to highlights

now with first curtain sync the flash fires at the front filling up the buckets with sharp flash exposure and any movement of the model will add smudging movement blur from the ambient continuing to expose for those 5 seconds
this has a lesser effect in the highlight areas (since the extra ambient light is not likely to be brighter than the flashed exposure) than it does in the shadow areas (where if a brighter part of the subject moves across a darker area say an arm across a dress the ambient exposure will fill up the buckets with more photons and bam some extra ghosting blur) but the net result is some movement blur smudging what was a previously sharp flash exposure.

I know i'm right on this, In summary second curtain sync WILL give you a sharper subject than first curtain for long exposures. If the model stays very still then the difference might not be too noticeable and also for shorter exposures first curtain will still be fine like in the 1/4 second exposures i have there i agree first or second probably won't see a difference. But for 5 seconds there is going to always be a degree of involuntary movement which is enough to blur the fringes of detail. 

Just because your say I'm wrong doesn't make it so


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## privatebydesign (Nov 1, 2013)

Show me. 

Show me the "deal breaker" deficiency of not having remote second curtain sync, and take a guess (it is a 50 50 chance) is this first or second curtain, are they rotating clockwise or anticlockwise? I know and I can't tell the difference between first curtain and clockwise or second curtain and anticlockwise.


I am not arguing that there is never a difference, as I said above for tail lights going away second curtain works better (but headlights coming to you first curtain works better) but the vast majority of the time there is no detectable difference unless you know the direction of travel of the subject if there is any.

P.S. Your simplistic bucket filled pixels is overlooking the fact that photons are photons, it doesn't matter to the total exposure of the pixel if the photons come from the flash or the ambient, or in which order they come, it is just a total number of photons to achieve the level of charge, and susiquently exposure, for each individual pixel.


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## StudentOfLight (Nov 3, 2013)

There is a small difference in certain situations even on static objects. I remember shooting interior shots in a kitchen and out of interest I shot with conventional and rear-curtain sync and in that situation there was more contrast on some of the shiny objects in the scene.

The only way I could explain it to myself was that the 1st curtain flash continued re-reflecting in the scene on various objects and so exposure was built up more on some shiny surfaces. Surprisingly it was not all surfaces or even all shiny surfaces. So I believe factors like object and lighting orientation can play a role in small shooting areas. In large open areas the light will obviously just disperse. Anyway, my point is that while it is possible to get better contrast with 2nd curtain, improved contrast is not guaranteed.

If there is motion in your shot then obviously rear curtain will lock final moment of your exposure and 1st curtain locks initial moment of exposure.


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## surapon (Nov 3, 2013)

Dear Friends.
Here are the Effected of 2ND. Curtain Flash control :

http://digital-photography-school.com/an-explanation-of-2nd-curtain-sync-flash-or-slow-sync-flash

http://photography.blogorganization.com/photography-tips/second-curtain-flash-for-cool-effects

http://www.beyondmegapixels.com/2013/04/creative-use-of-second-curtain-sync/

Enjoy
Surapon


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## privatebydesign (Nov 3, 2013)

Surapon,

I think most of us understand that part. 

My specific challenge is can anybody tell the difference if they don't know what the direction of travel is, if there is any travel, and can anybody differentiate first and second curtain flash if there is no movement? My assertion is no, you can't. Others seem to say there is a difference but nobody can post two images demonstrating that difference.

As nobody can so far demonstrate this difference my assertion still follows that Canon remote flash systems not having second curtain sync is not a "deal breaker", and as any possible differences are so small, even advocates can't post any examples, they are not of any consequence.

Surapon, look at the image I posted, did I use first or second curtain sync, are they rotating clockwise or anticlockwise? What is the difference?


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## ScottyP (Nov 3, 2013)

If things were reversed (Canon had 2nd curtain, and the competition did not) would those Canon owners proclaiming its irrelevance so vigorously be doing so? I do not know, but my guess is "no". ???

I don't have them yet (back ordered) but at $319 (Adorama eBay sale) my new Phottix Mitros Plus units would have to have something dreadfully wrong with them, and not a collection of tiny quibbles, to make me think I should have gotten the 600 rt's instead, given the added features, and the lower price, and the really very good Phottix name.


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## surapon (Nov 3, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Surapon,
> 
> I think most of us understand that part.
> 
> ...




Thank you, Sir Dear Mr. privatebydesign.
Sorry, I never use Second Curtain Flash Sync. in my Job ( Just 2-3 Time In my Photography Class that I went to Learn). Yes From your Beautiful Photo, Let Me see the Advantage of this System with the Imaginative Technique ( Rotation) for the best special Effect that Regular flash might not do the same.
Thanks, I have learn some thing New to day , Both from You and from all of Our CR. Friends.
Have a great Sunday, Sir.
Surapon


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## privatebydesign (Nov 3, 2013)

ScottyP said:


> If things were reversed (Canon had 2nd curtain, and the competition did not) would those Canon owners protesting its irrelevance here be doing so? I do not know, but my guess is "no". ???



What is the point of that comment? Can you illustrate the difference?

I have been a frequent supporter and happy owner of Yongnuo gear. I very strongly considered the Phottix Odin system before getting the Canon RT system. My main deciding factor was I wanted on camera flash and remote radio control, something you couldn't do with the Odin system (without a clunky workaround) until the release of the nearly unavailable and not cheap Mitros+. I wanted real world functionality the Odin system did not have, how is that being a Canon zealot? I also wanted five group functionality not three as with the Odin system, another real world identifiable function, not a "feature" that nobody can actually illustrate! Now the remote zoom functionality of the Odin system is a useful and desirable feature, I would like Canon to be able to do that, it is a feature with demonstrable use that actually makes a difference to images.

So often people who don't know better and don't have the experience are sold features as "deal breakers", well if you can't illustrate that deal breaking functionality am I wrong to point out that it probably isn't a deal breaker?


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## Lichtgestalt (Nov 3, 2013)

the YN-622C get a great addition soon.
a new YN-622C TX transmitter with LCD.

from what i read its hard to justifie the price of the odin then.

make no mistake i like the odin but the 622C are great too and a real bargain.
with the enhanced 622C TX controller they get even better.

this image shows the N (nikon) version:







features known so far

USB port for firmware updates 
3 groups Mix TTL and Manual groups 
1/3rd stop power and FEC adjustment 
Remote flash zoom in 3 groups
2nd Curtain Sync, HSS, SuperSync 
AF Assist Light 
Remote Shutter Release function 
Battery level indicator 
PC Sync Port 
Improved stability and transmission speed (especially for SB-800 user) 
SuperSync manual timing adjustment (great for studio strobes)

http://flashhavoc.com/new-yn-622-tx-has-manual-supersync-timing-adjustment/


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## jonathan7007 (Nov 3, 2013)

Couldn't find a Mitros+ "sale" on eBay in or outside the Adorama [virtual]store. Too bad to miss that unless someone knows a link that gets right to the relevant page(?) I would have probably bought at least one. I use several Phottix Odins and one StratoII and having one that can act as controller is appealing. 

Please let us know -- anyone that again sees the Mitros+ units on sale.


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## LostArk (Nov 3, 2013)

PocketWizard ControlTL radios are über alles. Even if you own 600EX flashes, the AC3 zone controller makes it faster and easier to adjust multiple flash groups (even mixing TTL and manual groups!) than using the Canon menus. I wouldn't stop using PW's even if someone gave me a 5D3 and a bunch of 600EX's. Another exclusive feature of PocketWizards are their compatibility with various Sekonic light meters - you can even adjust flash power from the light meter itself (L-478). No other radio triggers offer the functionality, versatility, and performance of PocketWizard. No other triggers make accomplishing anything with off camera flash truly effortless. In my opinion, all other triggers are ghetto jury rigs.


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## iam2nd (Nov 3, 2013)

I am facing a flash purchase decision, so this thread is relevant to me. Unlike many here, I am not on the bleeding edge of Canon bodies  I still have the lowly 1D Mark IV, which as I understand it cannot drive HSS via radio to a remote 600EX-RT, leaving only optical as being supported. Even with an STE3-RT on the body, remote radio HSS is not supported? (My backup body is even older) OR, does the user manual mean that radio HSS isn't supported only using ETTL? And that in manual flash exposure mode, HSS would work fine?

Can anyone confirm my interpretation of the 600EXRT user manual? I am looking at the Phottix Odin since it claims to support HSS via radio, but I would love if anyone has actually used HSS with the Odins on a 1D Mark IV 

Forgot to mention, my flash is a 550EX, and I'm looking to purchase two more flashes of some yet-to-be-determined brand.


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## CharlieB (Nov 3, 2013)

Getting in late I know..... I made the jump to E-TTL(ii) about two months ago, and have used the YN622.

Zero problems, easy to use, supports all current functions (important to know - no upgrades, but they're cheap).

Have had ONE issue, one time only, and I chalk it up to my own doing. Was doing a lot of switching between my 5Dii and &d with the YN622 on camera, and YN568 and YN622 off camera. The YN622 on the camera "froze". It still fired the flash and worked ETTL, but would not do zoom or other functions. This happened in extreme testing, and I blame it on all the switching, at least 30, maybe 50 times switched between cameras. During any sort of shoot, I'd be with one camera and cannot foresee switching unless of equipment failure. To clear the issue I had to do a reset on the YN622 on the camera. Takes seconds....easy... back in the game. It actually took me a while to figure out the issue, but the fix was as easier than changing lenses.


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## Lichtgestalt (Nov 3, 2013)

LostArk said:


> PocketWizard ControlTL radios are über alles. Even if you own 600EX flashes, the AC3 zone controller makes it faster and easier to adjust multiple flash groups (even mixing TTL and manual groups!) than using the Canon menus. I wouldn't stop using PW's even if someone gave me a 5D3 and a bunch of 600EX's. Another exclusive feature of PocketWizards are their compatibility with various Sekonic light meters



another?

what was the first exclusive feature?


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 3, 2013)

Lichtgestalt said:


> LostArk said:
> 
> 
> > PocketWizard ControlTL radios are über alles. Even if you own 600EX flashes, the AC3 zone controller makes it faster and easier to adjust multiple flash groups (even mixing TTL and manual groups!) than using the Canon menus. I wouldn't stop using PW's even if someone gave me a 5D3 and a bunch of 600EX's. Another exclusive feature of PocketWizards are their compatibility with various Sekonic light meters
> ...



The AC-3 zone controller. 

The PW system can also trigger monolights, and as yet there's no standalone receiver for the -RT system with a PC or hotshoe output.


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## Lichtgestalt (Nov 3, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Lichtgestalt said:
> 
> 
> > LostArk said:
> ...



so he was only comparing to the canon RT system?

because other triggers offer the same functionality.
even build in, without the need of another trigger on top.
thought the 3 dials on the AC-3 are a faster way to change settings then on most devices where you have to select the group first. 
but then i like to see +2 EV and power ratios and not just some numbers.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 3, 2013)

Lichtgestalt said:


> so he was only comparing to the canon RT system?
> because other triggers offer the same functionality.
> even build in, without the need of another trigger on top.



Are those controls as easy at the three separate physical dials on the AC3? Pressing buttons can't compare...


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## Lichtgestalt (Nov 3, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Lichtgestalt said:
> 
> 
> > so he was only comparing to the canon RT system?
> ...



i already acknowledged that above in my edit.  
thought not faster... but with more features.

i see the power ratio in manuell groups for example not only a number.

anyway... even when it´s faster to handle, that doesn´t make it exclusive.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 4, 2013)

iam2nd said:


> I am facing a flash purchase decision, so this thread is relevant to me. Unlike many here, I am not on the bleeding edge of Canon bodies  I still have the lowly 1D Mark IV, which as I understand it cannot drive HSS via radio to a remote 600EX-RT, leaving only optical as being supported. Even with an STE3-RT on the body, remote radio HSS is not supported? (My backup body is even older) OR, does the user manual mean that radio HSS isn't supported only using ETTL? And that in manual flash exposure mode, HSS would work fine?
> 
> Can anyone confirm my interpretation of the 600EXRT user manual? I am looking at the Phottix Odin since it claims to support HSS via radio, but I would love if anyone has actually used HSS with the Odins on a 1D Mark IV
> 
> Forgot to mention, my flash is a 550EX, and I'm looking to purchase two more flashes of some yet-to-be-determined brand.



I can confirm that HSS via the RT system absolutely works at all speeds in M mode on the 1D MkIV with either another 600-EX-RT or an ST-E3-RT on camera as controller. They will also work in ETTL and HSS, but the output is not entirely consistent, normally within 1/3 stop but sometimes as much as 1/2 a stop variation, which I have not found to be an issue. Another Canon no no but works in practice is the drop in sync speed, with wide apertures I don't have an issue with RT at my original sync, 1/250, but if I close down I can get a slim shutter shadow when using 1; 2/3; or even at f22 1/3 stop faster than 1/125. Again I have found this easy to work around.

I believe Canon were being overly cautious when they stated some of this stuff would not work on pre 2012 bodies. 

I came from 550EX's, I still have a few, and after much research I decided that even though I use pre 2012 1Ds MkIII's most of the time the RT system was the best solution for me. I couldn't be happier, actually I could, if Canon gave us a firmware update to give me the post 2012 flash menu, but short of that the 600-EX-RT's are what flashes should have always been. They just work, 100% of the time, I will never have firmware updates or compatibility issues, I need four AA's and I am good, no lost connections, no misfires, no start up sequencing, no calibration shots, no cables connectors or adapters, no hot shoe connectors that might be the problem, or might not. Just 100% reliability.


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## iam2nd (Nov 4, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> I can confirm that HSS via the RT system absolutely works at all speeds in M mode on the 1D MkIV with either another 600-EX-RT or an ST-E3-RT on camera as controller. They will also work in ETTL and HSS, but the output is not entirely consistent, normally within 1/3 stop but sometimes as much as 1/2 a stop variation, which I have not found to be an issue. Another Canon no no but works in practice is the drop in sync speed, with wide apertures I don't have an issue with RT at my original sync, 1/250, but if I close down I can get a slim shutter shadow when using 1; 2/3; or even at f22 1/3 stop faster than 1/125. Again I have found this easy to work around.
> 
> I believe Canon were being overly cautious when they stated some of this stuff would not work on pre 2012 bodies.
> 
> I came from 550EX's, I still have a few, and after much research I decided that even though I use pre 2012 1Ds MkIII's most of the time the RT system was the best solution for me. I couldn't be happier, actually I could, if Canon gave us a firmware update to give me the post 2012 flash menu, but short of that the 600-EX-RT's are what flashes should have always been. They just work, 100% of the time, I will never have firmware updates or compatibility issues, I need four AA's and I am good, no lost connections, no misfires, no start up sequencing, no calibration shots, no cables connectors or adapters, no hot shoe connectors that might be the problem, or might not. Just 100% reliability.



Thanks for taking the time to respond! I would much rather buy into Canon's system. If radio-based (not optical) ETTL works with the 1DMkIV and 600EXRT/STE3RT, then I agree that Canon may just be making an official support/test statement, to which I can totally understand. You have given me much to think about.


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## Meh (Nov 4, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> I know i'm right on this



And yet so wrong...


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