# TheDigitalPicture.com: 5Ds vs 5Ds-R crops posted



## StudentOfLight (Jul 3, 2015)

The guys at TDP have posted resolution-chart crops of one of the sharpest lenses available, the Canon EF 200mm f/2 L USM lens, tested on both the Canon EOS 5ds and 5Ds-R. You can take a look by following the link:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=980&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=458&CameraComp=979&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0


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## BeenThere (Jul 3, 2015)

Thanks for the link. I'm seeing a slight increase in contrast at the finest line spacing for the R. Not much else.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2015)

Keep in mind with comparisons such as this that the files are processed identically, which is not the same as _optimally_. The AA-filtered images can have more sharpening applied, due to the predictable nature of the softening from an AA filter.


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## StudentOfLight (Jul 3, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Keep in mind with comparisons such as this that the files are processed identically, which is not the same as _optimally_. The AA-filtered images can have more sharpening applied, due to the predictable nature of the softening from an AA filter.


I will be getting the 5Ds. I'll manage sharpening in post. Camera will hopefully do a good job of managing moire on clothing. ;D


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## longtallkarl (Jul 3, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Keep in mind with comparisons such as this that the files are processed identically, which is not the same as _optimally_. The AA-filtered images can have more sharpening applied, due to the predictable nature of the softening from an AA filter.



hi neuro,

are you saying that the aa filtered images can have more sharpening applied than the aa cancelled images? if so, can you explain further? i'd love to find an excuse to stop waiting for the 5dsr and just get a 5ds. 

thanks,

-karl


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## heptagon (Jul 3, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Keep in mind with comparisons such as this that the files are processed identically, which is not the same as _optimally_. The AA-filtered images can have more sharpening applied, due to the predictable nature of the softening from an AA filter.



Sharpening increases noise. Even if the sharpness can be restored, it won't be the same. The question to ask is: "Will I ever NEED the AA filter?"


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 3, 2015)

heptagon said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Keep in mind with comparisons such as this that the files are processed identically, which is not the same as _optimally_. The AA-filtered images can have more sharpening applied, due to the predictable nature of the softening from an AA filter.
> ...



mostly not as the test shots done so far suggest that moire is not really a problem in urban environments with modern facades with that very dense sensor. Same as D810 ... 

I think the AA filter might only be important for fashion, certain product photography and some (very few) repetitive patterns in nature like this bird feather example that someone had (have not seen it by myself). Does someone have a link to this picture ???


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## sanj (Jul 4, 2015)

I suspect Canon is expecting the R to sell more, that is why holding back on it's release. Making people buy the S for now.


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## 1982chris911 (Jul 4, 2015)

sanj said:


> I suspect Canon is expecting the R to sell more, that is why holding back on it's release. Making people buy the S for now.



Well my local dealer has a waiting list for the DsR while the Ds is in stock... Also confirmed that DsR sales are very high - actually more than MK3 sales in the beginning


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## Sporgon (Jul 4, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Keep in mind with comparisons such as this that the files are processed identically, which is not the same as _optimally_. The AA-filtered images can have more sharpening applied, due to the predictable nature of the softening from an AA filter.



+ 1. A key point to remember when choosing between the two cameras. Will you be able to see any difference after applying _appropriate and optimal_ sharpening.


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## StudentOfLight (Jul 5, 2015)

Sporgon said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Keep in mind with comparisons such as this that the files are processed identically, which is not the same as _optimally_. The AA-filtered images can have more sharpening applied, due to the predictable nature of the softening from an AA filter.
> ...


+1, Sharpening is likely one of the last operations I do in post-processing. Unless I'm shooting for web use, I either do it with batches of images, or for really important images, one at a time. Whether I was using the 5Ds or the 5Ds-R I would go through the same process and there would be no difference in workflow, probably only the distance I would move a couple of sliders. Since I need to move the slider anyway, and since most of the time I can synch settings across numerous images, I don't see the value to me having the -R version.


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## sulla (Jul 5, 2015)

heptagon said:


> The question to ask is: "Will I ever NEED the AA filter?"



Indeed. I have seen Moiré in a very very few cases with the 5D1 and also in very very few cases with the 5D3, in both cases with studio portraits at clothes. The 5D1's Moiré was pretty harsh (very strong Moiré lines), but it still could be corrected within LR with ease. The 5D3's Moiré was much more gentle, and likewise easy to remove in post.

The point I want to make is that

also AA-filtered sensors do show Moiré from time to time and
Moiré is not seen often in images and
as Bryan at the-digital-image points out, with the 5DsR he had to work very hard to capture it, because he needed perfect focussing, the right Av and also the right perspective to bring it out. But there are cases where the Moiré in the 5DsR will be harsh (bird feathers). In those situations, also the 5Ds and likewise the 5D3 will show Moiré, though a bit more gently.

Thus, if I were to buy a 5Ds, I would go for the R-version and deal with Moiré in post whenever I should encounter it.

Bottom line, I guess Chuck Westfall's advice is wise: If you're a wedding photographer and thus dealing with fine fabrics a lot of the time the 5Ds will be the better choice. In environents like landscape where regular patterns are not common, then the 5DsR might be the preferred camera.


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## candc (Jul 5, 2015)

the 5ds and 5dsr were added to the studio test scene at dpr. the only place i could see any moire was on the illustration in the upper left and it seems to show on all the cameras compared in the scene depending on what part you select. seems you have to look hard to find it. i don't think it would be noticeable in real world shooting at normal viewing size.

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/5


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## AdamF (Jul 5, 2015)

If you want to see moire and compare images, look here:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-5Ds-R.aspx


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## K (Jul 24, 2015)

I'm going to add my long-winded $0.02


First, this is yet more vindication for Canon that the AA filter is still a good thing for PRO photography. It is a relief that, while Canon takes a beating on the internet, they still retain some sense of practicality for real professional photography and do not completely appeal to the hordes of electronics enthusiasts across the internet who are amateur photographers at best.

The moire test images clearly shows the effects of moire in real world images. Hey, where's all the Nikonians who constantly preach that "moire doesn't happen anymore with higher megapixels" ...especially certain popular Youtube video bloggers. Really? Canon has 50MP, and moire still exists, so there goes that load of BS. When it came to Nikon and their fan base, there was widespread acceptance of the loss of the AA filter with pretty much ZERO comparisons or real discussion showing the consequences of removing it. Instead, they boasted of the extra "sharpness"...

In the Canon world, we see a more honest, professional and open debate with real examples. 


I do think that the 5DSR sales will easily surpass. But that's the marketplace. And Canon is going to feed it. But we should be happy they are offering the regular 5DS.


NOW...onto the comparison.


On the test images for IQ - *I think they are so close that it makes no sense to go with the 5DSR. *

If there was a considerable difference, something easily noticeable - then one could argue about the added IQ on the R. But they are almost identical. The gain is practically zero. Only someone with O.C.D. might let it bother them.


They are so close in fact, that I'm willing to bet differences in LENS will have more impact on image-to-image comparisons than the sensors themselves.

In other words, you can buy two 70-200's, identical models - mount them and there is a good chance differences in the lenses will have more impact. How the AFMA is set will also matter. Shooting test charts is the best way to analyze since more variables can be controlled, but even then the slightest vibration, being 1mm off - just about anything tiny can have more of an impact. I'm not bashing their tests. I'm sure these were locked down on steady mounts and many test shots taken. Just illustrating how minimal the difference is.


In the real world, the wind blowing a little will change the moisture in the air and make a bigger difference on a landscape shot. 

I don't know, maybe it's me - but the 2nd midframe image looks better for the 5DS than the 5DSR. The rest the 5DSR has a very minuscule advantage on.



Ok, all that said, for my money - the 5DS is the better choice. I get all the resolution, all the awesomeness, and I get to dodge moire in certain situations. Plus it is a little cheaper too. What is not to like?


After all, is this not supposed to be a studio and landscape camera?


If one is taking a landscape photo to blow up large, can you imagine having that ugly moire shown on the bricks in that one image? That is unacceptable. All these megapixels, all this and that goes out the window when an image is made amateur, and is ruined by ugly artifacts like that. I don't know how some people can go on and on about things like "dynamic range" and endlessly debate all this BS about how important that stuff is for their landscapes - but they do all their shooting with a non-AA filtered camera. Dynamic range to them is the end all be all. Meanwhile, they either have ugly moire in their images OR they have to photoshop it - mangling the image, OR they just have to choose a different shot entirely to avoid moire. So much for high resolution when you have to essentially damage the detail doing a very difficult fix on moire.



Or how about for studio shots of models? These can be blown up to large posters. Many fabrics cause moire. 


The 5DS is the winner.


I think the real pros out there have already bought the 5DS and are happily shooting away. The huge wait lists and demand for the 5DSR is from the amateur, electronics enthusiasts out there. Well played Canon. Serving both interests.


As for the 5DSR, I think the question should be reversed. These tests show how the AA filter is an advantage. It should be shown (If it can), how the 5DSR can help in a practical way in terms of increased detail with the cancellation or no-AA.

I haven't seen it yet. And judging from the test images so far, the advantage is almost nil.


As they say, better to have and not need, then need and not have.


Particularly when you lose nothing.


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## massive (Jul 24, 2015)

K said:


> I think the real pros out there have already bought the 5DS and are happily shooting away.
> The huge wait lists and demand for the 5DSR is from the amateur, electronics enthusiasts out there.



can you point to your sources for this info?


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## Ruined (Aug 2, 2015)

K said:


> I'm going to add my long-winded $0.02
> 
> 
> First, this is yet more vindication for Canon that the AA filter is still a good thing for PRO photography. It is a relief that, while Canon takes a beating on the internet, they still retain some sense of practicality for real professional photography and do not completely appeal to the hordes of electronics enthusiasts across the internet who are amateur photographers at best.



I completely agree that the 5DS is aimed at pros and the 5DSR is aimed at enthusiasts/consumers. No pro in their right mind is going to risk losing that one perfect shot to moire or other artifacting just to gain an imperceptible sharpness increase. It doesnt matter if it happens infrequently, if it has the potential to happen just once and ruins an otherwise marketable shot, then it is not worth the 2% sharpness increase. Worse yet, if it happens and your client notices before you do perhaps due to volume, it will leave you an an even worse situation.

I would also argue the AA filter is the correct way to do things from an image sampling standpoint as well.


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## PureClassA (Aug 2, 2015)

Lord knows I have a lot of respect for the knowledge and opinions of guys like Neuro, but as a 5DSR owner since the day it got released, I've shot a lot in studio with it against a variety of clothing. I have yet to generate the negative artifact. Now, I wont tell you it's a lot sharper than then 5DS, I have not compared them myself. I'd say at this point, reading what I have, I'd be happy with either version. In fact the only moire examples Ive seen from a 5DSR also showed on the 5DS, granted it was not as severe. 

A few days ago Amazon had 16 in stock after a month of none. Probably all gone by now. Obviously Canon misjudged the demand of both versions in opposite directions. 

PS - let's knock off the petty crap about pros buying AA filter and amatuers not. That's ridiculous and it's as wrong and childish as the people whose entire life boils down to DR. Let's please not drag this intellectual dicussion down that road too


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## scyrene (Aug 15, 2015)

Moiré or not, given how similar they are, why pay more for one than the other? I'm still hoping to get the 5Ds. Even if the -r did produce sharper images (and I'm unconvinced), is it worth another couple of hundred quid? (That's the RRP difference here, although the 5Ds has dropped a lot more since release, so it's now up to ~£500 at one retailer). I don't think so.


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## Sporgon (Aug 15, 2015)

scyrene said:


> Moiré or not, given how similar they are, why pay more for one than the other? I'm still hoping to get the 5Ds. Even if the -r did produce sharper images (and I'm unconvinced), is it worth another couple of hundred quid? (That's the RRP difference here, although the 5Ds has dropped a lot more since release, so it's now up to ~£500 at one retailer). I don't think so.



There's a good comparison between the various 5 series, including the s and sr at on landscape, by Tim Parkin.

https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2015/07/testing-the-canon-5dsr/

I have found this to be a very good 'real world' test; the only one to show the magenta colour cast of the 5DII compared with the others in fact. 

I don't think Canon misjudged anything: they have purposely held volume of the higher priced r version back initially to create more demand, just as Nikon did with the 'e'. The extra £200 on top of the price will be a nice little bonus for Canon. However if the Nikon D800 is anything to go by those who buy the 'r' will still get their £200 back in used value even five years from now. 

Look at the on landscape article, you'll see that moire isn't just limited to repeating patterns. 

Personally I'll be going for the 5Ds version - unless I decide on taking a naustalgic trip down memory lane and get the new Pentax FF camera complete with Exmor R when it is introduced. Although that BLS is hardly setting the world on fire so far.


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## AprilForever (Aug 15, 2015)

Seems to me looking at the TDP pictures that the moire subjects were showing moire in both the 5ds and the 5dr. Also seemed the 5dr looked a lot better for landscape. As far as feathers, I am a bird photographer, but, this sort of camera is not really a bird photography camera anyways, either s or r. Also, one is rarely taking pictures of a few feathers filling the frame, so the moire would be far less likely. However, as I mentioned, that is a moot point because these really are not the cameras for bird photography anyways.


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## Ruined (Aug 16, 2015)

AprilForever said:


> Seems to me looking at the TDP pictures that the moire subjects were showing moire in both the 5ds and the 5dr. Also seemed the 5dr looked a lot better for landscape. As far as feathers, I am a bird photographer, but, this sort of camera is not really a bird photography camera anyways, either s or r. Also, one is rarely taking pictures of a few feathers filling the frame, so the moire would be far less likely. However, as I mentioned, that is a moot point because these really are not the cameras for bird photography anyways.



I guess my issue is, based on what I've seen, when very minor sharpening is applied to the 5DS it looks virtually identical to the 5DSR. But, when there is a subject with moire, the 5DS looks better than the 5DSR. I have not seen a case where the 5DSR looks substantially better than the 5DS, but I have seen cases where the 5DS looks substantially better than the 5DSR due to moire.

So I am not sure what you are really getting with the 5DSR aside from a moire-prone camera and a lighter wallet.

When prices drop a bit, the 5DS is what I will be pulling the trigger on. Should be an awesome pairing with the 7D2.


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## Maiaibing (Aug 16, 2015)

The IQ difference between the two is much smaller than people here make it into. 

In the US the 5DS is by far the best value offer of the two given the current grey market price differential. Seems a no-brainer to me.

You get marginally sharper pictures with just a tiny bit less noise with the "R" and a few more problems with Moiré than with the 5DS. But its not like the 5DS is not sharp or has lots of noise or is immune to Moiré. Test shots are great at revealing these small differences. But can anyone here claim they would be able to eyeball the difference between the two just seeing a picture?? As someone - correctly - noted, lens variations may easily be as important.

I may get an excellent one-off offer for a 5DSR next week for a little more than the 5DS. So if I get one of these its going to be the 5DSR only because I got lucky and expect it will be a better sell one day.


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## Maiaibing (Aug 16, 2015)

Ruined said:


> I have seen cases where the 5DS looks substantially better than the 5DSR due to moire.



Anything comparable except for test charts?


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## Maiaibing (Aug 24, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> I may get an excellent one-off offer for a 5DSR next week for a little more than the 5DS. So if I get one of these its going to be the 5DSR only because I got lucky and expect it will be a better sell one day.



Just got a mail offering me a 5DRS just shy of 3.300$ 

Too tempting to pass - even if the 5DIV may be around the corner. 

Lets see if I can post something later this week. 8)


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## StudentOfLight (Aug 24, 2015)

Maiaibing said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > I may get an excellent one-off offer for a 5DSR next week for a little more than the 5DS. So if I get one of these its going to be the 5DSR only because I got lucky and expect it will be a better sell one day.
> ...


Congrats on your purchase. I can tell your excitement. LOL


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