# Canon EOS Rebel T7's are Next on the DSLR Schedule [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 7, 2016)

```
<p>We’re told that the next DSLR(s) from Canon will be replacement for the EOS Rebel T6s and EOS Rebel T6i. There is currently no information or apparent plans for a direct replacement for the EOS Rebel Sl1.</p>
<p>While specifications are unknown at present, we’re told that the new Rebels will launch in a “unique way”, we’re hoping to hear soon what that means. We also don’t know if both the EOS Rebel T6s and EOS Rebel T6i will get direct replacements when the T7 series cameras come.</p>
<p>It’s our understanding that the big drop in Canon DSLR shipments have mainly been due to significant drops in Rebel series sales, 5 years ago you couldn’t keep them on the shelf at Christmas time, those times are long gone.</p>
<p>I suspect we’ll see the new Rebels at CES in January or CP+ in February.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## Chaitanya (Nov 7, 2016)

I hope Canon just keep one EOS xxxD with ergonomics of 760D. Also my friend who own 760D was always complaining of shutter lag so I hope that's fixed with 800D.


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## drmikeinpdx (Nov 7, 2016)

I like the Rebel form factor for my crop sensor bodies, so I always keep a couple of them around. I use them for walk around cameras, vacation cameras and as backup for my 5D3.

I really like the idea of the S models that have the top panel LCD display, but I am waiting to see if the next generation Rebels get the new lower noise sensors. If they do, I will pick up one in late 2017 when they start showing up in the refurbished store.


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## crashpc (Nov 7, 2016)

That's quite long time for myself hanging on original M. No M3 II(M5 without EVF)?
I'll definitely spend all my money on lenses, not having money for adequate camera body later. Also 24Mpx sweetspot is long in the tooth. How about 18/36Mpx differentiated models?


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## Ryananthony (Nov 7, 2016)

crashpc said:


> That's quite long time for myself hanging on original M. No M3 II(M5 without EVF)?
> I'll definitely spend all my money on lenses, not having money for adequate camera body later. Also 24Mpx sweetspot is long in the tooth. How about 18/36Mpx differentiated models?



24mp is long in the tooth? What crop sensor camera has more then 24mp? Let alone significantly higher like 36mp?


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## Ozarker (Nov 7, 2016)

Ryananthony said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > That's quite long time for myself hanging on original M. No M3 II(M5 without EVF)?
> ...



I think that is what his point is. The 7D Mark II has 20.2mp, the 80D has 24.2 and the 7D Mark II has 20.2mp. The T6i has 24.2mp. 

So there are two APSC cameras with more than 24mp.

It is his opinion that 24.2mp is long in the tooth for APSC bodies. OPINION. So what? 

The truth? There is no such thing as the truth when it comes to that particular opinion.

I think there will be a 30mp APSC sensor in the T7i. I'm probably wrong. More like 36mp. Who cares? It's just an opinion.


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## crashpc (Nov 7, 2016)

Ryananthony said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > That's quite long time for myself hanging on original M. No M3 II(M5 without EVF)?
> ...



That is exactly my point. No other APS camera except dead Samsung has more. Iteration after iteration, after iteration, we're hanging at 20-24Mpx. No low light beast or hi-res beast in crop camera class. That is boring, and not helping me to choose. How do you think I will upgrade when the next iteration will be again 24Mpx, or again the same FPS or whatever...


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## overniven (Nov 7, 2016)

The Rebel seems unnecessary in today's market. They need to move on getting the Rebel moved to mirrorless (ala M10, M20, M30 etc).

They just need to fix that lack of lenses problem. The adapter isn't the solution, it's a stop-gap.


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## ahsanford (Nov 7, 2016)

Ryananthony said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > That's quite long time for myself hanging on original M. No M3 II(M5 without EVF)?
> ...



Samsung's NX line (RIP) had 28 MP APS-C sensors two years ago in fact. Pretty damn good ones, if I recall.

And Sony has offered 24 MP sensors on SLRs and mirrorless APS-C rigs since _2011_.

I personally don't think chasing pixels in smaller sensors is particularly wise, but some folks (rightly or wrongly) peg the number going up as a 'must' to seem current and competitive. Some of these same folks never shoot video but still insist a new rig in 2016 must have 4K, so please take those comments with a grain of salt. :

- A


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## ahsanford (Nov 7, 2016)

overniven said:


> The Rebel seems unnecessary in today's market. They need to move on getting the Rebel moved to mirrorless (ala M10, M20, M30 etc).



The market disagrees with you. They regularly top Amazon's top sellers list. Rebels pay the bills and keep the lights on at Canon.

In fairness, that won't be forever. The market is changing, and I do believe the cell phone is devouring the standalone camera business for the non-enthusiast masses, the John Q Hockeydads and Mary P Soccermoms, if you will. _But pulling the mirror out of the Rebel line isn't going to save it_, because size isn't the reason people abandon standalone cameras. 

People abandon standalone cameras because the camera in their pocket is (nearly) as good, and that speaks to _not wanting to carry a second item around_. No amount of camera thinning from a mirrorless redesign is going to satisfy that user need.

- A


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## scrup (Nov 7, 2016)

Someone needs to cater to the entry level photographers and price point. I am glad Canon and Nikon are still in this space. Shows they are still trying to get new customers and grow "Pure" photography at the grassroots level.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 7, 2016)

crashpc said:


> Ryananthony said:
> 
> 
> > crashpc said:
> ...



24Mp is the equivalent of 62MP full frame in terms of pixel density. which is probably why you're not seeing much greater than that.


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## brad-man (Nov 7, 2016)

crashpc said:


> Ryananthony said:
> 
> 
> > crashpc said:
> ...



Considering how long we were subjected to the 18MP sensor, 24 seems pretty damn fresh to me


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## ahsanford (Nov 7, 2016)

brad-man said:


> Considering how long we were subjected to the 18MP sensor, 24 seems pretty damn fresh to me



DR is the bigger need to address than resolution, IMHO. DXO's data (throw up in my mouth noise) puts the last two rebels a whopping 2.6 EVs behind APS-C best in class.

Just dropping the 80D sensor in the next Rebels would cut that gap in half.

- A


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## douglaurent (Nov 7, 2016)

Hardly anybody who owns a DSLR and a smartphone will see the advantage of buying another Rebel model with another set of mini innovation. If Canon would be clever, they simply release all their DSLR models in mirrorless versions, and add 4K video and a lot of the many little helping workflow functions you can find in Sony, Panasonic or other manufacturer's cameras. 

This way they have a smooth transition to mirrorless, and many people will see a reason to buy a camera that has visible upgrades in workflow and at least video quality. If your smartphone records 4K videos, 1080p specs in a large camera are not sexy.

All people who own 1-5 Canon lenses also would see that buying a new camera only (instead of a complete new system) is not such a big step, and maybe even some customers lost to Sony who kept their Canon accessoires will return. An APS-C mirrorless line will EF mount will also not cannibalize the 5D4, 1DX2 etc. 

I personally will not invest in any Canon mirrorless system that doesn't take full advantage of EF lenses.


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## brad-man (Nov 7, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> brad-man said:
> 
> 
> > Considering how long we were subjected to the 18MP sensor, 24 seems pretty damn fresh to me
> ...



I agree. I would expect the new Rebel sensors to have the new chip architecture (on board ADC), though I'm less confident they'll include DPAF. Market differentiation, bla, bla, bla...


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## mitchel2002 (Nov 7, 2016)

i think a 12mp and 24mp sounds right for these


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## ahsanford (Nov 7, 2016)

mitchel2002 said:


> i think a 12mp and 24mp sounds right for these



This beginner / family SLR category unfortunately tends to stack up MP against competitors as a first or possibly second value-making/decision-making priority. I think the upsides of a 12 MP sensor (better high ISO files, more shots captured for a given size of a card, etc.) would largely be lost on such a consumer level product and would not sell well at all, even if price was discounted.

So in this market segment, people seem to offer the 'right' MP count to be comparable. Of late, that figure has been 24 MP for Canon, Sony, Nikon, Fuji, Pentax. Everyone has a 24 MP rig, so those would appear to be table stakes to join that fray with a new model.

You _can_ actually charge more to offer less pixels in APS-C, but only the speciality action market segment: enthusiast birders / wildlifers in the premium APS-C slot (D500, 7D2, etc.)

- A


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## 9VIII (Nov 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> mitchel2002 said:
> 
> 
> > i think a 12mp and 24mp sounds right for these
> ...



12MP would be very popular... if they gave it full sensor readout 4K recording.

So I would expect to see a Rebel with full sensor 4K sometime around 2030, after it trickles down from the Cinema line to the 1DX3, to the 5D6, to the 6D5, to the... What do they call it three revisions after the 90D?
And then eventually to the T14i.
Anyway, I think it's safe to say that "some day" they're going to put a 12MP sensor in a Rebel.


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## ritholtz (Nov 8, 2016)

80d sensor into Rebel with mfa, I am in. Really like Rebel size. I think Canon not offering discounts is one of the reason for sales drop. Previous rebels used to go down to $400 price point very often. New rebels are very expensive.


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## AvTvM (Nov 8, 2016)

They should make one last Rebel - small size SL2 with 80D sensor including DPAF. Then abandon Rebel lineup and xxD-line and switch to EOS M only for crop cameras, except high-speed 7D II DSLR successor. 

24 MP is just fine for APS-C, lenses to take advantage of higher rez are not there or too expensive/too large for most Rebel buyers.


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## ahsanford (Nov 8, 2016)

9VIII said:


> 12MP would be very popular with gear-savvy enthusiasts... if they gave it full sensor readout 4K recording.
> 
> So I would expect to see a Rebel with full sensor 4K sometime around 2030, after it trickles down from the Cinema line to the 1DX3, to the 5D6, to the 6D5, to the... What do they call it three revisions after the 90D?
> And then eventually to the T14i.
> Anyway, I think it's safe to say that "some day" they're going to put a 12MP sensor in a Rebel.



I corrected your post for you.  John Q Hockeydad or Mary P Soccermom really don't give a damn about full sensor readout. They want sharper / more detailed / higher % of in-focus pictures than their cell phone can generate.

So a Rebel with lower resolving power than most cell phones is highly unlikely to occur, IMHO.

- A


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## Tugela (Nov 8, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> crashpc said:
> 
> 
> > Ryananthony said:
> ...



P&S camera have much higher pixel densities than that.


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## Tugela (Nov 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> overniven said:
> 
> 
> > The Rebel seems unnecessary in today's market. They need to move on getting the Rebel moved to mirrorless (ala M10, M20, M30 etc).
> ...



People who but Rebels don't buy them because there is a mirror in it. I would hazard a guess that most of them are unaware that it uses a mirror, or that there is a difference between it and a MILC.


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## Tugela (Nov 8, 2016)

9VIII said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > mitchel2002 said:
> ...



They would be better off taking the Rebels into mirrorless IMO. Forget about 4K in a Rebel any time soon though, Canon does not have processors that are fast enough within the thermal envelope available in their cameras for a mass consumer product. Maybe with Digic 8 perhaps, but that will be 2018 or later.

Personally I think that any average Joe who buys a Rebel rather than one of the competing MILCs is making a poor and rather uninformed choice.


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## ahsanford (Nov 8, 2016)

Tugela said:


> People who but Rebels don't buy them because there is a mirror in it. I would hazard a guess that most of them are unaware that it uses a mirror, or that there is a difference between it and a MILC.



Agree completely. 

What I meant by a "pulling the mirror out of the Rebel line isn't going to save it" is that a lowering tide lowers all boats. People are not buying cameras at the same rate as last year just because it has a mirror in it, or because it's too thick. We know this because all camera sales are down in comparison to 2015, not just SLRs.

One might presume folks are not buying cameras at the same rate as last year because their cell phone is now doing a good enough job that they don't need the hassle of a standalone camera. Hence: pulling the Rebel's mirrors out is probably not going to do much to help sales.

- A


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## -1 (Nov 8, 2016)

I think while the 760D is cute its the successor would benefit from both MFA and a tilt screen instead of the swivel one. 24MP is oki for this kind of camera if the AA filter is modest in strength. Work is needed on noise and DR.


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## bardamu (Nov 8, 2016)

My first DSLR was the 550D. It was a nice intro to `real' photography.

These days I no longer use it. But not because of MP or DR or lack of 4k, etc.

What happens with the XXXD series still interests me because I'm interested in the camera market in general. But I'm not surprised that it has stagnated a bit in the last few iterations.

But really, rather than more APS-C cameras can't we get some more APS-C lenses?? It wouldn't take much Canon, how about just a 24mm equiv prime (~15mm), 35mm equiv prime (~22mm) and most importantly an update to the 17-55 IS, e.g. a weather sealed 15-45mm f/2.8 IS. If the 7D iii gets released without any more progress on crop lenses then it'll be a bit of a disgrace really.


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## -1 (Nov 8, 2016)

bardamu said:


> But really, rather than more APS-C cameras can't we get some more APS-C lenses?? It wouldn't take much Canon, how about just a 24mm equiv prime (~15mm), 35mm equiv prime (~22mm) and most importantly an update to the 17-55 IS, e.g. a weather sealed 15-45mm f/2.8 IS. If the 7D iii gets released without any more progress on crop lenses then it'll be a bit of a disgrace really.


The 7D series should be considered more of a crop replacement for the APS-H cameras, the 1D series rather than being buffed up x0Ds. Thus you should find the that main resource for lenses suitable to them is the EF ones w or w o red ring.


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## Bennymiata (Nov 8, 2016)

From my observations, being larger can be an advantage.
A lot of average people (not real photographers) buy a dslr because it looks like a real camera and they believe the quality of the photos, when the camera is permanently set one of the full auto modes, will be superior to their phone and better than from those toy cameras.
They want to look like a serious photographer, even if they aren't. 

That's why there is a good market for Rebels. Their owners reckon they look the same as a 5dwhatever.
Their reasons for buying a dslr are quite different from real enthusiasts and pros and very few of them ever buy any extra lenses or much in the way of accessories, other than a uv filter and a bag.


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## benkam (Nov 8, 2016)

Too many Rebels. The way to consumers' hearts (or wallets) is really to cut prices, possibly achievable by streamlining the product lines and therefore rationalizing production costs.

Make the decision for entry into Canon DSLR as simple as possible. Just keep two Rebel types:

1) the 700D/T5i as basic entry-level, price it as the 1300D/T6

2) the 760D/T6s as intermediate entry-level, priced as a 700D/T5i

The specs are fine. Its the slashing of prices that will for Canon hopefully stem the bleeding of their new user base and hope they later move up the range.


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## asl (Nov 8, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Personally I think that any average Joe who buys a Rebel rather than one of the competing MILCs is making a poor and rather uninformed choice.



For one camera one lens setup, it does not make sense to get a rebel at the moment. 

I am telling my self I did in 2008-2010, after that I have only bought lenses. 
Of course if the new one has the new sensor (at least the dr) and good price is could be interesting for landscape for example fully articulating screen is nice.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 8, 2016)

benkam said:


> Too many Rebels. The way to consumers' hearts (or wallets) is really to cut prices, possibly achievable by streamlining the product lines and therefore rationalizing production costs.
> 
> Make the decision for entry into Canon DSLR as simple as possible. Just keep two Rebel types:
> 
> 1) the 700D/T5i as basic entry-level, price it as the 1300D/T6



no they are not. so basically take a loss on the higher volume camera. good plan!


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## rrcphoto (Nov 8, 2016)

Tugela said:


> Personally I think that any average Joe who buys a Rebel rather than one of the competing MILCs is making a poor and rather uninformed choice.



or you are making a poor and uninformed observation.

nothing beats canon's STM lineup out there in terms of range of focal from UWA to tele for a kit. the rebels are fairly compact, weigh less than canon's xxD series cameras or above, and Canon's EF-S STM lenses are the best bang for the buck out there. you can walk away with the 24, 50, 10-18 , 18-135, 55-250 and have a credible kit and not cost a significant amount of money.

I'd argue that someone getting a T6s as a starting point and expanding their APS-C kit from there is a pretty good decision and alot more informed than your post.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 8, 2016)

asl said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I think that any average Joe who buys a Rebel rather than one of the competing MILCs is making a poor and rather uninformed choice.
> ...



for a one lens setup it doesn't make sense to get ANY ILC camera.

the entire point of an ILC is to switch lenses.


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## ahsanford (Nov 8, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I think that any average Joe who buys a Rebel rather than one of the competing MILCs is making a poor and rather uninformed choice.
> ...



I think it depends on what you value. Some folks buy a camera with a kit lens and never expect to buy another lens. Some of those folks value what is in the box on day one _as that's all they'll ever own_. In that light, an a6000 with 11 fps might make more sense than a T6i.

That said rrc, I personally agree with you. I always advise folks to go Canon or Nikon with a first ILC purchase as the ecosystem is bigger, it is future proofed for accessory / lens options, quality is better, you may know someone already with one who might loan you a lens, etc.

But my opinions are those of an overthinky enthusiast and do not for a moment represent the bread and butter prospective Rebel or D5500 buyer.

- A


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## ahsanford (Nov 8, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> for a one lens setup it doesn't make sense to get ANY ILC camera.
> 
> the entire point of an ILC is to switch lenses.



Whoa, disagree on this one. Some people get ILCs strictly for _responsiveness_ reasons (principally for pictures of their children), which an OVF/mirror setup does best --> so they buy an SLR.

Unless there is a fixed lens modern DSLR on the market that I am not aware of, those folks will likely get a Rebel or D5500.

- A


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## Luds34 (Nov 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > for a one lens setup it doesn't make sense to get ANY ILC camera.
> ...



Absolutely, I know of many casual shooters who bought a DSLR because it shoots "instantly" and allows them to photography their kids.


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## AvTvM (Nov 8, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> or you are making a poor and uninformed observation.
> 
> nothing beats canon's STM lineup out there in terms of range of focal from UWA to tele for a kit. the rebels are fairly compact, weigh less than canon's xxD series cameras or above, and Canon's EF-S STM lenses are the best bang for the buck out there. you can walk away with the 24, 50, 10-18 , 18-135, 55-250 and have a credible kit and not cost a significant amount of money.



Canon EOS M3 is much better choice than any rebel. Smaller body, less vibration, less noise, less intrusive, same capabilities (with optional EVF). 

Canon EF-M lenses cover essentially the same focal range as EF-S lenses at less bulk, typically lower price and many have even somewhat higher IQ  

EF-M 11-22 >>> cheaper and better than >>>> EF-S 10-18 and 10-22
EF-M 18-55 KIT >>> slightly smaller and slightly better than >>> EF-S 18-55 IS STM
EF-M 18-150 >>> more compact and more reach and equal IQ and lower price than >>> EF-S 18-135 
EF-M 22/2.0 >>> 1 stop faster and better IQ than >>> EF-S 24/2.8 pancake
EF-M 28/2.8 Macro >> with LED light >>> no such thing in EF-S [but EF-S 60 Macro] 
EF-M 50-200 >>> a lot more compact but 50mm less reach and 1/2 stop slower at long end than >>> EF-S 55-250 

And with tghe EF-M/EF adapter you can also use any EF-S/EF lens without loss of fucntionality, especially those with STM AF drive. 

So EOS M is much smarter choice than mirrorslapper rebel.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 8, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > or you are making a poor and uninformed observation.
> ...



except it's slower fps, smaller battery, smaller built in flash, doesn't have a fully articulated screen, is less comfortable to hold for some,etc,etc.

however yes - canon has replicated the EF-S in the EF-M ecosystem.

however I presumed the person i was replying to was suggesting "better" mirrorless cameras.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 8, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > for a one lens setup it doesn't make sense to get ANY ILC camera.
> ...



the newer 1" compacts are extremely quick and pretty good at catching movement of at least children.

if you're not going to move off the kit lens, it's highly debatable that you need an ILC nowadays which is why they aren't selling as well.


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## ritholtz (Nov 8, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > or you are making a poor and uninformed observation.
> ...


Even if you ignore mirror, rebels still shoots with more FPS than M3.


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## AvTvM (Nov 8, 2016)

ritholtz said:


> what for? Me and many othere users I know are more than happy with max. 5 fps. No problem, if [some] cameras are (much) faster. But definitely not NEEDED in majority of Rebel use cases. ;-)


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## ahsanford (Nov 8, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> ritholtz said:
> 
> 
> > Even if you ignore mirror, rebels still shoots with more FPS than M3.
> ...



Agree. Responsiveness of the OVF setup remains the killer app of the SLR over everything else. When I hand my old T1i over to family that come to visit (that's my loaner rig for beginners), if they've never shot an SLR, it shows. They marvel at how quickly it nails things -- it's a very 'capture the moment' definitive and satisfying experience.

- A


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## ritholtz (Nov 8, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> what for? Me and many othere users I know are more than happy with max. 5 fps. No problem, if [some] cameras are (much) faster. But definitely not NEEDED in majority of Rebel use cases. ;-)



You're suggesting Canon M3 being better choice than Rebels. But M3 doesn't shoot with 5 fps. Rebels shoots with 5 fps. I think rebels shoot with 3 fps in live view also.
According to dpr, For M3 burst rates drop dramatically when in AF-C mode, to roughly 1.5 fps, depending on your subject.


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## asl (Nov 8, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> asl said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...




Yes, I agree (in most cases), but it seem (there are statistics.) many still do get one camera and one lens. 
And I do not think the canon/rebels are the best in such case as canon strongest point seem to be there selection of (semi expensive although maybe cheaper that competing brands) lenses, not their cameras. I think you could get more for your money from other brands, even if you had to pay more for a good lens in such case.
This is for course my view and I am more nerd/enthusiast then the people who actually would buy one camera and one lens so may be it does not matter any way.
This might also of course change a bit with the new rebel.


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## zim (Nov 8, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> we’re told that the new Rebels will launch in a “unique way”



Through the art of interpretive dance ?

Strippers ?


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## transpo1 (Nov 8, 2016)

They'll need to have 4K video and slo-mo capabilities if they want to compete with the most popular camera in the world- the iPhone.


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## zim (Nov 9, 2016)

transpo1 said:


> They'll need to have crap quality 4K video and slo-mo capabilities if they want to compete with the most popular camera in the world- the iPhone Samsung.



Other than that I agree ;D


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## vscd (Nov 9, 2016)

@Canonrumours

Could you please always try to write down the Name of the body for countries different from the states. Like Canon 60D or Canon 700D. "Kiss" or "T7" is quite uncommon elsewhere. Thank you!


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## transpo1 (Nov 9, 2016)

zim said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > They'll need to have crap quality 4K video and slo-mo capabilities if they want to compete with the most popular camera in the world- the iPhone Samsung.
> ...



Canon would not have it any other way. Touché, sir. I stand corrected. I should have said, "if they want to compete with one of the most popular cameras in the world."


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## 9VIII (Nov 10, 2016)

asl said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > asl said:
> ...



EOS comes with a ton of options for professional tools and accessories. I think getting a low end Rebel is a much better idea than a high end Point and Shoot.
Even if you never use all the features, eventually someone else might, there's an inherent value to it that more casual hardware lacks.


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## ahsanford (Nov 10, 2016)

Timely that we're on a Rebel thread when this should drop:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/1426601517/nikon-d5600-dslr-announced-though-not-in-the-us

_Shockingly_, I see no reference to 4K recording.  

So either Nikon's huffing the same paint as Canon, or 4K is just not a must for this market segment. 

- A


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## Toni (Nov 10, 2016)

"due to significant drops in Rebel series sales, 5 years ago you couldn’t keep them on the shelf at Christmas time, those times are long gone."

For a lot of people it's a really bad idea to buy a Canon Rebel.

Canon Rebel:
Good: aps-c size sensor, body size, RAW.
Bad: really bad kit lens, no microAF, shutter lag.

Compare with a smartphone:
Good: internet connection, good lens (F2.0), easy to carry with you.
Bad: really small sensor.

A Canon Rebel vs smartphone must compete with image quality. But... With a bad kit lens? With no microAF? There's a nonsense. A lot of people will do better photos and will be more happy with a smartphone.


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## AuroraChaserDoug (Nov 10, 2016)

After lurking for the past year to keep up with the rumors, I decided it was time to chime in 
While many people are content with using their smartphones to photograph their life's events, others quickly see the limitations and look for something better. After buying a T5i (with the 2 STM lenses) for my son 14yr. old son a couple years ago, my eldest daughter noticed the limitations of her smartphone and asked for a DSLR. I bought her a refurb SL1 body from the Canon website and added my 18-55mm STM from a 70D kit that I don't use. The price was fabulous and the kit works great! She is starting to think about a telephoto lens but only after using my 70-200 to photograph bison in Canada last summer.

Most my heavily invested Canon shooting friends are telling first time buyers of DSLRs to get Nikon for best bang for buck, even with a lower quality kit lens then the STM lineup. Canon needs to keep the DSLR price entry point lower than the T6 with a good SL2 to compete with the Nikon D3xxx. A T7i/T7S seems early out of the gate unless there is some new tech to test on consumers and the SL2 next up to bat. Even so, the budget DSLR market is turning to yellow.


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## Toni (Nov 10, 2016)

AuroraChaserDoug said:


> I bought her a refurb SL1 body from the Canon website and added my 18-55mm STM from a 70D kit that I don't use.



A Canon SL1 with a 18-55mm STM lens is not really "reflex" quality image. If you like it, congratulations!

But a friend has that camera with that lens... And he is very disappointed. You can't compare that lens with usual f2.0 smartphone lens. So, it's very easy to be disappointed.


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## benkam (Nov 10, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Timely that we're on a Rebel thread when this should drop:
> 
> https://www.dpreview.com/news/1426601517/nikon-d5600-dslr-announced-though-not-in-the-us
> 
> ...



4K still at least a future version away from this market segment of entry-level ILCs. Even Sony's still at the A6300/6500 segment with 4K. Canon can be expected to first go APS-C 4K not with the Rebels but first with the "90D" and 7D Mark "III" as with Nikon's equivalents.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 10, 2016)

Toni said:


> AuroraChaserDoug said:
> 
> 
> > I bought her a refurb SL1 body from the Canon website and added my 18-55mm STM from a 70D kit that I don't use.
> ...


Rebel SL1 + 18-55STM can not make images as good as a smartphone with F2 lens? 

Let's see:

Smartphone has zero optical zoom.
Smartphone has F2 lens, but depth of field equivalent to F8 in APS-C.
Smartphone does not record in RAW.
Smartphone has high ISO with pathetic quality.
Smartphone has reasonable shutter delay, but fast focuses ONLY IN INTENSE LIGHT.

SL1 + 18-55STM has more than 3X optical zoom on the kit lens.
SL1 + 18-55STM has aperture F3.5-5.6, able to blur the background reasonably.
SL1 + 18-55STM also records in RAW.
SL1 + 18-55STM has fairly decent high ISO up to 3200.
SL1 + 18-55STM has shutter lag faster than any equivalent price smartphone, and the 18-55 STM lens focuses extremely fast.

I'm sorry if you've never used the new 18-55 STM, but I have to inform you that its performance is better (except maximum aperture) than the Canon 17-55mm, 17-85mm. Obviously, your friend may have bought a defective Rebel with a defective 18-55mm, which is of no use in judging his qualities.


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## Toni (Nov 10, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> I'm sorry if you've never used the new 18-55 STM, but I have to inform you that its performance is better (except maximum aperture) than the Canon 17-55mm, 17-85mm. Obviously, your friend may have bought a defective Rebel with a defective 18-55mm, which is of no use in judging his qualities.



If you're happy with kit lens 18-55 stm, congratulations. You know nothing about photography image quality.
With a lens like that, I prefer to don't take the photo.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 10, 2016)

Toni said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry if you've never used the new 18-55 STM, but I have to inform you that its performance is better (except maximum aperture) than the Canon 17-55mm, 17-85mm. Obviously, your friend may have bought a defective Rebel with a defective 18-55mm, which is of no use in judging his qualities.
> ...


Really?
: : : : : :
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=836&Camera=736&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=398&Sample=0&CameraComp=736&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=836&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=251&CameraComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)


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## AvTvM (Nov 11, 2016)

Toni said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry if you've never used the new 18-55 STM, but I have to inform you that its performance is better (except maximum aperture) than the Canon 17-55mm, 17-85mm. Obviously, your friend may have bought a defective Rebel with a defective 18-55mm, which is of no use in judging his qualities.
> ...



you n00b/troll. Both Canon EF-S 18-55 STM and EF-M 18-55 are the very best kit standard zooms on the market today. I have used both extensively, especially the EF-M and it is absolutely excellent IQ. Only compromise is aperture.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 11, 2016)

Toni said:


> AuroraChaserDoug said:
> 
> 
> > I bought her a refurb SL1 body from the Canon website and added my 18-55mm STM from a 70D kit that I don't use.
> ...



you're kidding right?

I mean .. seriously .. you're not comparing a f2.0 smartphone lens with a 18mm to 55mm zoom on an APS-C sensor (of any form of fashion.. ) are you? really?

and if you can't get a good image out of the SL1 and the 18-55 STM the fault firmly resides in the photographer.


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## AvTvM (Nov 11, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> Toni said:
> 
> 
> > A Canon SL1 with a 18-55mm STM lens is not really "reflex" quality image. If you like it, congratulations!
> ...



+1 ... for once I agree 100% with you d


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## benkam (Nov 11, 2016)

I've used the SL1 (or 100D) with the 18-55 STM and thought it'd be a good light, inexpensive walkaround system. Well...

- Image quality -- The 18-55 is a starter lens and it's good enough for casual shots outdoors and in good light. Most starting up should be happy with the images when compared with cell phones in those conditions. It's still favorably different. But, outdoors on a cloudy day or in poor light, I found it practically useless. The pop-up flash helps sometimes but not always gets the results you want. Also, barrel distortion at the wide end is quite bad and color fringing is present in more photos than you'd like.

- Ergonomics -- The 18-55 STM is practically weightless. It's mostly plastic and the bulk distributes the weight all over so you hardly notice it's even in your bag. But, the bulkiness for what it does also is IMO a bad fit mounted on the SL1 form factor. Of course you can make it work but the 18-55 works out better on a bigger Rebel.

- Use -- Bottom line is it's a fair weather friend. It's a starter lens, Canon will want you to buy others. If you have other lenses, I'd carry it only if I want the lightest stabilized general zoom for handheld video in good light. 

- Alternatives or complementary lenses -- Fortunately, the SL1 works great with some of Canon's cheapest and smallest primes. The SL1 is meant for the 24mm 2.8 STM pancake if what you really want is a general purpose and small, inexpensive system. The SL1 works great with the 50mm 1.8 STM, which is also a very good fit for this form factor. I'd have this on the SL1/100D most of the time as the pictures are more satisfying and also usable in more light conditions than the 18-55 STM, but with the obvious caveat that there'll be situations the 50 STM will be very restricting since it's an 80mm (with 2.8 DOF) full-frame equivalent. But, where you can have the space to work with, I've found the SL1/100D + 50 STM combo can be quite good, especially for people pictures or say sculptures or ceramics in a museum (do take care not to don't bump into anything backing up though LOL; no, seriously). Throw in the 24 STM pancake with the 50 STM and you're set for many types of photos with an inexpensive, small DSLR system. Throw in the 18-55 STM in the bag for when you expect to swap out lenses to do handheld video in good light.


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## 9VIII (Nov 11, 2016)

When I was using an 1100D beside the 5D2 I could barely tell the difference in almost any shot (posted on forums).
Eventually I got rid of the 5D2. Size, weight and cost of replacement became much more important (taking a $1,000 camera on vacation is a big risk).
For social media purposes an APS-C body may as well be Medium Format. IQ out of the cheapest Canon EOS on the market is an order of magnitude better than any application that 99% of people will ever use.


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## Mikehit (Nov 11, 2016)

benkam said:


> - Image quality -- The 18-55 is a starter lens and it's good enough for casual shots outdoors and in good light. Most starting up should be happy with the images when compared with cell phones in those conditions. It's still favorably different. But, outdoors on a cloudy day or in poor light, I found it practically useless. The pop-up flash helps sometimes but not always gets the results you want. Also, barrel distortion at the wide end is quite bad and color fringing is present in more photos than you'd like.



In what way is the lens 'practically useless' on a cloudy day or in poor light?


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## benkam (Nov 11, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> benkam said:
> 
> 
> > - Image quality -- The 18-55 is a starter lens and it's good enough for casual shots outdoors and in good light. Most starting up should be happy with the images when compared with cell phones in those conditions. It's still favorably different. But, outdoors on a cloudy day or in poor light, I found it practically useless. The pop-up flash helps sometimes but not always gets the results you want. Also, barrel distortion at the wide end is quite bad and color fringing is present in more photos than you'd like.
> ...



Useless might be too harsh a word but generally it's because I find the images not as sharp as I'd expect when I look at them on my computer. In similar conditions with the 50 STM, I'm happy with the results, so when I go out and it's a cloudy day or it's night, I suppose I personally find it "useless" in that situation because I find myself deciding to just leave the 18-55 and go with a prime. In good light, especially on a nice sunny day, they're close (but the prime still noticeably better for me) and I could choose to go with the convenience of the zoom. But again, small as it is, a bit bulky on the SL1.

The 50 STM is my default preference when using the SL1/100D but I'm always having to check my spacing, though worth it for me. You can always swap out the 24 STM for wider shots and I'd imagine for other SL1 users, the pancake is the default and the 50 the secondary. The 24/50 STM are definitely worthy complements or alternatives to the 18-55 STM. Perfect for this form factor and price range and quite easy to change. I still keep the 18-55 but it'd be for handheld video in good light.


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## AvTvM (Nov 11, 2016)

well nobody claims EF-S and EF-M 18-55 STM kit zooms to be the sharpest lenses in Canon's arsenal. Yes, decent prime lenses - anything from 40/2.8 and 50/1.8 STM upwards - are optically superior compared to kit zooms, even the best ones. 

BUT! I have no trouble getting sharp images with either 18-55 STM in any type of weather. If there is too little light, shutter times might be too long for tack sharp images and/or ISO too high and reduced contrast + noise reduction take their toll. Or captured scene itself is very low contrast due to inclement weather / poor lighting ... but that's not the kit zooms' fault. The same effect will be noticed even with a Zeiss Otus.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 11, 2016)

benkam said:


> - Image quality -- The 18-55 is a starter lens and it's good enough for casual shots outdoors and in good light. Most starting up should be happy with the images when compared with cell phones in those conditions. It's still favorably different. But, outdoors on a cloudy day or in poor light, I found it practically useless. The pop-up flash helps sometimes but not always gets the results you want. Also, barrel distortion at the wide end is quite bad and color fringing is present in more photos than you'd like.



color fringing and distortion is easily fixed in post processing. if you really want to bump up your image quality run it through DLO.
so it's hard to say that it's practically useless. unless you're doing something like comparing it to a fast prime.


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## ahsanford (Nov 11, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> benkam said:
> 
> 
> > - Image quality -- The 18-55 is a starter lens and it's good enough for casual shots outdoors and in good light. Most starting up should be happy with the images when compared with cell phones in those conditions. It's still favorably different. But, outdoors on a cloudy day or in poor light, I found it practically useless. The pop-up flash helps sometimes but not always gets the results you want. Also, barrel distortion at the wide end is quite bad and color fringing is present in more photos than you'd like.
> ...



Team: someone is bashing a kit zoom, invoking how _clouds_ and _low light_ are punishing its output... and you're taking the bait?



- A


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## benkam (Nov 11, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> well nobody claims EF-S and EF-M 18-55 STM kit zooms to be the sharpest lenses in Canon's arsenal. Yes, decent prime lenses - anything from 40/2.8 and 50/1.8 STM upwards - are optically superior compared to kit zooms, even the best ones.
> 
> BUT! I have no trouble getting sharp images with either 18-55 STM in any type of weather. If there is too little light, shutter times might be too long for tack sharp images and/or ISO too high and reduced contrast + noise reduction take their toll. Or captured scene itself is very low contrast due to inclement weather / poor lighting ... but that's not the kit zooms' fault. The same effect will be noticed even with a Zeiss Otus.





rrcphoto said:


> color fringing and distortion is easily fixed in post processing. if you really want to bump up your image quality run it through DLO.
> so it's hard to say that it's practically useless. unless you're doing something like comparing it to a fast prime.



You can't help but compare with what you can use. I look at the 24 2.8 and 50 1.8 primes, then the 18-55 kit zoom which will give 24 f4 and 50 5.6 max, look out and the sky's overcast (again) or it'll be dark soon. I'm not planning to shoot handheld video, I'm fine checking my spacing and swapping two small primes, so for my personal application, the 18-55's useless as I don't want to deal with its limitations. I leave it at home and just go with the 24/50 STM combo that I find so much superior for stills. And even on good days, I prefer the 24/50 STM and what's great is that these are inexpensive small lenses perfect for the SL1/100D in quality, size and price range. The 18-55 still finds use but mostly as a stabilized video zoom.


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## Mikehit (Nov 11, 2016)

Not to mention of course that the 18-55 (not even the SL1, for that matter) is actually _aimed _at you as a buyer. You may find use for it as a small, second compact body but you are not the primary market for it. I would say your personal views on what is acceptable is far, far higher than that expected by the target market. 
So for someone who is the target market to read comments like 'practically useless' is not really helpful to them.


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## dak723 (Nov 11, 2016)

It is possible that those complaining about the 18-55mm STM kit lens have been unlucky to have poor copies. As has been noted, the reviews for the lens are generally VERY favorable. I have used the lens myself on my SL1 and it is a very sharp lens. Image quality is essentially indistinguishable from much higher priced lenses. 

The main differences between the Rebels and higher priced APS-C cameras is NOT the IQ which is virtually identical, but in the other features and build quality.


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## Mikehit (Nov 11, 2016)

dak723 said:


> It is possible that those complaining about the 18-55mm STM kit lens have been unlucky to have poor copies.



It is possible but QC in a company like Canon is pretty good. You also need to consider the experience of the person criticising the lens then you can assume their expectations and thereby the benchmark they are using.


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## AvTvM (Nov 11, 2016)

look who's talking. absolutely clueless n00bs. why on earth dont they stick to their beloved smartphones and selfie sticks? a digital rebel plus 18-55 STM is really "throwing pearls before the swines", as we say in german. sorry, but it is really absurd to listen to those those incapable snapshooters trying to bash IQ of 18-55 STM.


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## benkam (Nov 12, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> Not to mention of course that the 18-55 (not even the SL1, for that matter) is actually _aimed _at you as a buyer. You may find use for it as a small, second compact body but you are not the primary market for it. I would say your personal views on what is acceptable is far, far higher than that expected by the target market.
> So for someone who is the target market to read comments like 'practically useless' is not really helpful to them.



I’m not bashing the 18-55 STM, it's alright in some situations but just pointing out its limitations. 

I don’t know if what I’ve said so far influences anybody’s purchase decisions here but if it does, allow me to be clear on what I think, based on my experience with the SL1 (100D):

1) If the SL1 with 18-55 STM kit zoom is all you can afford, be happy, IMO, it’s a good DSLR system and for its price range, it’s noticeably better than point-and-shoots and cell phone cameras. Consider later purchases of the 24 STM and 50 STM.

I got my 100D with the 18-55 STM priced only several euros more than the one with body only, because the latter wasn’t on sale. So it was a no brainer getting it with the 18-55. 

2) But, as of today, if you can push your budget 100 $ or euros more, there are two ways you can go:

2a) If the SL1 body only is cheaper by $50 than with the 18-55, skip the one with the kit: get the body only and pair it with the EF-S 24mm 2.8 STM from the get-go. Yes, the SL1 and 24 pancake were made for each other, period. Then, if you like portrait-type photos or just need to have that extra bit of reach while still keeping the small prime theme, line up the good old 50mm 1.8 STM if you don’t already have it. 

The SL1 is a budget DSLR and the 24 STM and 50 STM are two of Canon’s cheapest lenses and with those, if what you want is a compact, capable, affordable DSLR -- whether as a starter system or a second system -- you’re done. Enjoy taking your photos! 

2b) Here’s another alternative to consider though: If you’re looking at this extra-$100/euro price range, think again if you really want the SL1 or could instead go for the T5i/700D body with 18-55 STM. It’s bigger but the smallness of the SL1 means a fixed screen and the T5i/700D’s tilt and swivel screen is useful, for selfies or self-monitoring video or simply getting a good angle on a shot. The bigger body also balances better with bigger lenses like the 18-135, which looks and feels ridiculous on the SL1. If you get a T5i/700D on a good price with the kit zoom, go for it, as you can always consider the primes later.

That's it.


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## AvTvM (Nov 12, 2016)

mileage varies by use and user. while it will work for some people, using 2 prime lenses with 24 and 50 mm focal length is not necessarily a better solution than a 18-55 zoom lens.

i do have a few prime lenses but find myself using the 18-55 STM quite often. to me, prime lenses are specialists, one-trick ponies, exactly the right solition for a specific task, when i know in advance what that task/situation is going to be. more often, for all not-preülanned photographic situations - e.g. "walkaround" in my city or other cities, or alpine ventures/mountaineering in summer or winter - i prefer the flexibility of a zoom. often, i cannot freely chose my vantage point. if i want/need to go small and light, i want a compact camera (like SL1 or in my case an even smaller EOS M) with one compact, light, optically decent, not too expensive universal standard zoom lens on it. 

18-55 kit zooms had a poor reputation since earlier versions (pre STM) where optically mich weaker. Canon has corrected this in the current EF-S and EF-M 18-55 IS STM zooms. and nikon) 18-55 kit zooms. I find IQ astoundingly good for such small and cheap lenses. of course there are optical limits - first and foremost f/3.5-5.6 - but sharpness is no issue (unless it is a bad copy). calling current EF-S/M 18-55 STM IS zooms "useless" or "no sharp images in less than ideal weather/light" as someone did in an earlier post is totally undeserved and untrue bashing.

so my advice to (first time) Canon "Rebel" or EOS M buyers is: think about "what kind of images do you want to capture? in what types of situations? what scenes, what subjects? planned/unplanned shootings?". depending on answers, i'll recommend either 18-55 STM without hesitation and/or other prime or zoom lens/es.


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