# This is what we know Canon will be announcing for Photokina



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 21, 2018)

> Photokina is just over a month away, and Canon’s announcement plans haven’t exactly come into focus yet. There are the obvious products enthusiasts want Canon to announce, and then there is the reality.
> Below is the gear we know for certain Canon is going to announce ahead of the September tradeshow.
> *We’ve got at least 3 lenses coming.*
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## BeenThere (Aug 21, 2018)

Time for the chorus to chime in with the D-Word.


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## Kit. (Aug 21, 2018)

What about G7X III?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 21, 2018)

Kit. said:


> What about G7X III?



Let me find out.


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## djack41 (Aug 21, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> Time for the chorus to chime in with the D-Word.





BeenThere said:


> Time for the chorus to chime in with the D-Word.


What is the D-Word?


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## Swp (Aug 21, 2018)

No new 135mm?


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## ykn123 (Aug 21, 2018)

djack41 said:


> What is the D-Word?


Canon is *******


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## sdz (Aug 21, 2018)

If Canon could not produce the mirrorless FF cameras for the Christmas season, the company lacked one key incentive for announcing them in September.

Oh well....


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## Chaitanya (Aug 21, 2018)

What about new flash to replace either 270ex II or 320ex? That could be exciting announcements if they come with RT support.


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## Ozarker (Aug 21, 2018)

ykn123 said:


> Canon is *******


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2018)

Re: the 90D/7D3/5DS2 not coming this year? It should not surprise us. 

Re: the three lenses coming... yay, I guess? Folks should be excited about that EF-M prime, as I believe it's the first time Canon has ever made a crop-specific lens faster than f/2.8 before. One might read that as at least a tiny commitment to enthusiasts in the crop space, but I highly doubt we'll see Canon go all Fuji X with EF-M and offer a boatload of lenses like this.

Re: FF Mirrorless, there's a hole in the 'better than Rebel' release calendar from now until the middle of next year. It simply must arrive in that window.

- A


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## Deleted member 378664 (Aug 21, 2018)

sdz said:


> If Canon could not produce the mirrorless FF cameras for the Christmas season, the company lacked one key incentive for announcing them in September.
> 
> Oh well....


after Christmas is before next Christmas 

Are the kind of cameras, most of us here expect, really typical Christmas presents?


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## hmatthes (Aug 21, 2018)

I've chosen to stay a Canon shooter but I need another body NOW. Choices are: (1) buy a 5D-IV which is great but long-in-the-tooth; or (2) wait for FF ML or new 5DS-II or Leica compact FF ...


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> I've chosen to stay a Canon shooter but I need another body NOW. Choices are: (1) buy a 5D-IV which is great but long-in-the-tooth; or (2) wait for FF ML or new 5DS-II or Leica compact FF ...



The 5D4 is mid product cycle -- you won't see a 5D5 for a good 2+ years. Are you worried about its value dropping precipitously, or does it lack some functionality that you need?

The 5DS2 will possibly come next year, but not imminently. 

FF mirrorless may be the soonest to arrive, but it may simply be feature-wise on par with the 5D4 or 6D2 (with newer sensor tech, surely), depending on price point. There's no guarantee Canon will lead with a high end FF mirrorless offering.

If you have a pressing near-term need and you are not a working pro, considering renting to get through your pressing need. If you are pro, I'd liken this to your car breaking down and _you kinda need a car to get to work_. If your livelihood is at stake, I'd just get a solid body that prioritizes your biggest needs and not overthink it.

- A


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## Etienne (Aug 21, 2018)

I'll be looking closely at the Nikon FF mirrorless options. Canon could take more than another year to bring something to market. It may just be a development announcement in January, which can mean 1 to 2 years before it's in your hands. Canon can be surprisingly slow, in fact some people have been waiting for an update to the 50 f/1.4 for the better part of a decade!


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## Etienne (Aug 21, 2018)

I may finally jump ship this year. I've already sold my 5D3, 70-200L f/2.8 IS II, 16-35 f/2.8 II, and 50 f/1.4. I'm just using a T7i, 77D, M3, M6 and assorted lenses for the time being. I miss the full frame but I've been holding out for news from Canon on a possible new FF mirrorless.
Jumping to Nikon or Sony won't be too hard at this point.


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## Uneternal (Aug 21, 2018)

No new camera this year and Canon will be pretty much screwed this festival/xmas season.
With Sony probably lowering their prices by at least 200 bucks and people probably already preordering the new Nikon next month - Good luck...
I don't know if it's so smart waiting till next year if the mirrorless war is already on and so many pros already switched to Sony cause Canon keeps the rumor machine going since at least 2 years but still has no competeting product against Sony A7II/A7III, also cause the 6D2 was a massive letdown.

Personally, I'm a big Canon fan. But if they don't WANT to make money it's their fault. I'm really tempted to jump on the Sony wagon.


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## SV (Aug 21, 2018)

Guess I'll just have to live vicariously though Nikon's upcoming FF Mirrorless announcement...Hope they get a good one!


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## takesome1 (Aug 21, 2018)

Looks like nothing of interest is going to be announced. 
My bank account is safe.


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## mensaf (Aug 21, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Let me find out.


Super excited for the 32mm F1.4. I'm hoping it has IS.

Fingers crossed the G7X mkiii is announced as well. Need that dpaf an the portability would be nice. Thanks for the updates.


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2018)

Uneternal said:


> No new camera this year and Canon will be pretty much screwed this festival/xmas season.
> With Sony probably lowering their prices by at least 200 bucks and people probably already preordering the new Nikon next month - Good luck...
> I don't know if it's so smart waiting till next year if the mirrorless war is already on and so many pros already switched to Sony cause Canon keeps the rumor machine going since at least 2 years but still has no competeting product against Sony A7II/A7III, also cause the 6D2 was a massive letdown.
> 
> Personally, I'm a big Canon fan. But if they don't WANT to make money it's their fault. I'm really tempted to jump on the Sony wagon.



Making profit vs. moving units / gaining share are two very different approaches. Canon has perfected the former (long product lifecycles with well maintained price) while Sony is aggressively pushing the latter (short lifecycles and FF bodies priced to move).

If you believe the company that is bending over backwards investment-wise / product development-wise to get you to buy their camera is a better long-term investment, you should switch to Sony right now. Do it.

I would prefer to see them bending over backwards to _*support*_ their products and improve the ergonomics/controls/interface, not induce buyer's remorse with constant new offerings that undermine my resale value, etc.

Sony has some compelling horsepower-per-dollar under the hood. But, in a way, that Ferrari handles/drives like s---- and it's not as reliable as my Canon (perhaps Mercedes in this analogy). Until that changes, I wouldn't touch their gear with a ten foot pole.

- A


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## robinlee (Aug 21, 2018)

Boo Canon, if you delay you better make it worth it...


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## CanoKnight (Aug 21, 2018)

djack41 said:


> What is the D-Word?


Dead. Canon is dead, as in "They're dead, Jim". Now Sony can plow ahead with the A7III unchallenged. Just makes my decision to get the A7III that much easier.


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## Tangent (Aug 21, 2018)

Seems to me that Canon is getting better at keeping secrets.


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## ecpu (Aug 21, 2018)

What I don't understand is... why be so unbelievably secretive about FF Mirrorless... given their position vs sony and nikon, wouldn't a "leak" or development announcement be a good thing? I mean, if people knew the camera was coming, surely they would be less likely to jump ship?

Personally, I need something with much better video capabilities than my 6DII and I just like what mirrorless cameras have to offer. I consider switching to sony every day because as far as I can tell... we could very well be nowhere near a FF mirrorless from canon.


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## fullstop (Aug 21, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> Dead. Canon is dead, as in "They're dead, Jim". Now Sony can plow ahead with the A7III unchallenged. Just makes my decision to get the A7III that much easier.



I thought Sony is about to be challenged seriously by Nikon come August 23? 
Rather than going Sony NOW I'd definitely wait a few more days to see more clearly what exactly Nikon's got ...


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## Dantana (Aug 21, 2018)

I'm super curious about a Canon FF mirrorless, but I'm confused by some of the responses here.

There is talk of the Christmas season ans losing Pros in one fell swoop. I don't think these things go together. Seems like an updated M5/M6 would be a Christmas hit and that a Full Frame pro setup would be on a separate timeline. Then again, I'm not a pro, so maybe they wait for Christmas sales. Seems unlikely though since it's a business expense.


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## Bambel (Aug 21, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Folks should be excited about that EF-M prime, as I believe it's the first time Canon has ever made a crop-specific lens faster than f/2.8 before.



EF-M 22/2,0?

But this 32/1.4 is as well on my list..

B.


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## Cochese (Aug 21, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> I've chosen to stay a Canon shooter but I need another body NOW. Choices are: (1) buy a 5D-IV which is great but long-in-the-tooth; or (2) wait for FF ML or new 5DS-II or Leica compact FF ...



What... Long in the tooth? I don't follow on that sentiment. It's an amazing camera and it takes amazing photos. And syncing it up to my phone and editing using Photoshop express while on the road is amazingly easy.


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## transpo1 (Aug 21, 2018)

ecpu said:


> What I don't understand is... why be so unbelievably secretive about FF Mirrorless... given their position vs sony and nikon, wouldn't a "leak" or development announcement be a good thing? I mean, if people knew the camera was coming, surely they would be less likely to jump ship?
> 
> Personally, I need something with much better video capabilities than my 6DII and I just like what mirrorless cameras have to offer. I consider switching to sony every day because as far as I can tell... we could very well be nowhere near a FF mirrorless from canon.



Unfortunately, that's the sad truth. A development announcement with some specs would be perfect, because it tells us what to expect and whether it will be worth the very...long...wait.

If Canon's not going to bother including uncropped FF 4K with a decent codec for instance- not worth the wait. 

Similarly for photographers, it should give them a hint as to whether to expect a new mount or EF.


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## amorse (Aug 21, 2018)

ecpu said:


> What I don't understand is... why be so unbelievably secretive about FF Mirrorless... given their position vs sony and nikon, wouldn't a "leak" or development announcement be a good thing? I mean, if people knew the camera was coming, surely they would be less likely to jump ship?


I think this is because Canon isn't worried about people jumping ship and this could be because the perceived trend of people jumping ship could be a bit overstated. Maybe Canon thinks the working professionals, who may not necessarily be the vlogging/forum dwelling type, prefer familiarity and reliability to the additional benefits that mirrorless brings them. Maybe they just don't feel that threatened - they are the only ones with Canon's sales data, so they'd be in the best position to judge how big of a risk waiting actually is.


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## transpo1 (Aug 21, 2018)

Dantana said:


> I'm super curios about a Canon FF mirrorless, but I'm confused by some of the responses here.
> 
> There is talk of the Christmas season ans losing Pros in one fell swoop. I don't think these things go together. Seems like an updated M5/M6 would be a Christmas hit and that a Full Frame pro setup would be on a separate timeline. Then again, I'm not a pro, so maybe they wait for Christmas sales. Seems unlikely though since it's a business expense.



A new M5 with weather resistance and uncropped DPAF 4K and a swivel screen would be welcome. I'd have a hard time not picking one up.


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2018)

ecpu said:


> What I don't understand is... why be so unbelievably secretive about FF Mirrorless... given their position vs sony and nikon, wouldn't a "leak" or development announcement be a good thing? I mean, if people knew the camera was coming, surely they would be less likely to jump ship?



Nikon is staring at major mount migration like EF was 30+ years ago. F mount glass will work on this new mirrorless platform... _but not all of it. _

It vaguely smells like a heckler, far away, shouting _'F mount is going awaaaay'_, 'F mount is the new Sony A mount', etc.

It's not true in any imminent sense, of course. But it introduces the reality of two mounts, two different lens portfolios, one more thing to think about when loading up for a shoot, etc. and -- critically -- the kernel of doubt that the gear you currently own may need to be sold off to get native mirrorless mount glass and a cleaner/better/higher-performing existence in the new platform.

Canon could be so very tight-lipped on all this for a host of reasons. But an interesting theory is that they are waiting for Nikon to announce a thin mount mirrorless, they will let that uncertainty/unease I mentioned develop, and then they'd drop the hammer with a thin mount FF mirrorless body *and* a full EF mount mirrorless body: 'EF is here to stay -- period. We may dabble with a few thin-mount smaller lenses, but all that great EF glass is not only 100% compatible on day one, we will continue to maintain the EF portfolio as our #1 highest quality lens family.' That's a compelling message to pros who do. not. give. two. s---s. about their gear taking up an inch less space in their bag than it did last year.

Anyone Nikonians might overreact to a thin mount + adaptor (only) mirrorless option might find such a move from Canon attractive enough to convert.




- A


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## amorse (Aug 21, 2018)

Dantana said:


> I'm super curious about a Canon FF mirrorless, but I'm confused by some of the responses here.
> 
> There is talk of the Christmas season ans losing Pros in one fell swoop. I don't think these things go together. Seems like an updated M5/M6 would be a Christmas hit and that a Full Frame pro setup would be on a separate timeline. Then again, I'm not a pro, so maybe they wait for Christmas sales. Seems unlikely though since it's a business expense.


Agreed. Full frame cameras don't tend to appear in my house under the Christmas tree - they come into my house under the cover of darkness so as to avoid inevitable conversations on spending habits. 

I'd assume working professionals upgrade as they need to - either the current kit stops working or the demands of the job change and no longer fit the current kit.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 21, 2018)

ecpu said:


> What I don't understand is... why be so unbelievably secretive about FF Mirrorless... *given their position vs sony and nikon*, wouldn't a "leak" or development announcement be a good thing? I mean, if people knew the camera was coming, surely they would be less likely to jump ship?


Canon's position is that they sell more ILCs than Sony and Nikon combined. Is that what you meant?


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2018)

Bambel said:


> EF-M 22/2,0?
> 
> But this 32/1.4 is as well on my list..
> 
> B.



I stand corrected. I always blow past the pancakes, which is a mistake b/c this is one case the EF-M version got a faster speed than the EF-S and EF versions.

- A


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## zim (Aug 21, 2018)

amorse said:


> Agreed. Full frame cameras don't tend to appear in my house under the Christmas tree - they come into my house under the cover of darkness so as to avoid inevitable conversations on spending habits.


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## Bambel (Aug 21, 2018)

mensaf said:


> Super excited for the 32mm F1.4. I'm hoping it has IS.



I hope it won't. The 22/2.0 is so small because the whole lens is moved for fucusing. If you add IS it will be a huge retrofocus design. It's also cheaper but i fear it will be expensive anyways. The 22/2 needs much less glass and is already €250. 

B.


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## ecpu (Aug 21, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon's position is that they sell more ILCs than Sony and Nikon combined. Is that what you meant?



I was thinking more that they 1.) don't have a competitive FF mirrorless (sony), and 2.) they aren't even teasing or hyping one up (nikon).

Overall sales figures aside, I'm not sure ignoring a market segment is a good idea (if that turns out to be what they're doing).


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2018)

Bambel said:


> I hope it won't. The 22/2.0 is so small because the whole lens is moved for fucusing. If you add IS it will be a huge retrofocus design. It's also cheaper but i fear it will be expensive anyways. The 22/2 needs much less glass and is already €250.
> 
> B.



I think it will be about as big as Sigma's 30 f/1.4 for crop, or about as big as Canon's 35 f/2 IS:
https://www.the-digital-picture.com...Images.aspx?Lens=824&LensComp2=0&LensComp=838

As the 24/28/35 IS lenses showed, IS adds a little weight but doesn't require a large lens to pull off. (But that said, the rumor says this new EF-M 32 f/1.4 will be without IS.)

- A


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## fullstop (Aug 21, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Re: the three lenses coming... yay, I guess? Folks should be excited about that EF-M prime, ...



Not "excited" at all. Only interested to see how big and expensive the EF-M 32/1.4 is. 

I avoid sinking more money into crop-only lenses. Even more so, when finally an additional mirrorfree FF system comes to market. In my view it makes immeasurably more sense to buy/use a good, compact and inexpensive FF-capable 50/1.8 rather than buying crop-only f/1.4 lenses. Same reason why I have zero interest in Fuji crop system with expensive crop glass. 

P.S: That said, I would still consider purchase of a compact, decent, affordable EF-M 85mm f/2.4 IS STM since there is no alternative to get that FOV plus IS and aperture *in a compact way* for EOS M-system. It would have to come with IS and STM AF and be much smaller and better IQ [less bokeh fringing] than EF 85/1.8 with EF-M adapter.


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Not "excited" at all. Only interested to see how big and expensive the EF-M 32/1.4 is.



My guess = as big as the 35 f/2 IS and about $499 - 599. They won't shoot for the moon price-wise. Why?

1) They haven't asked for a $799+ EF-S lens in ages. I think they've abandoned the notion that folks will pump big dollars into crop-only glass -- at higher prices, FF compatibility becomes a buying consideration and folks prefer EF compatiblity.
2) It's STM.
3) Canon sells a simple double gauss 50 prime with f/1.4 for $329 today. It can be done.

- A


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## fullstop (Aug 21, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon's position is that they sell more ILCs than Sony and Nikon combined. Is that what you meant?



Canon sells most, yada yada, yawn. You may start to re-consider your incessant use of that line of argumentation, when Sony already sells more FF ILCs in the USA.


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## fullstop (Aug 21, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> My guess = as big as the 35 f/2 IS and about $499 - 599. They won't shoot for the moon price-wise. Why?
> 
> 1) They haven't asked for a $799+ EF-S lens in ages. I think they've abandoned the notion that folks will pump big dollars into crop-only glass -- at higher prices, FF compatibility becomes a buying consideration and folks prefer EF compatiblity.
> 2) It's STM.
> ...



That Sigma 30/1.4 without IS and crop-only currently is listed from € 439. Yikes. Don't think SIgma sells a lot of those. LOL.

I'll never buy yet another 50mm FOV equivalent crop lens for anything ,ike 599. Not even with IS.
I'd be willing to consider an EF-M 85/2.4 IS STM at 399 or less. 

And gazillions of other potential customers may see it the same way.


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## Bambel (Aug 21, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I think it will be about as big as Sigma's 30 f/1.4 for crop, or about as big as Canon's 35 f/2 IS:
> https://www.the-digital-picture.com...Images.aspx?Lens=824&LensComp2=0&LensComp=838
> 
> As the 24/28/35 IS lenses showed, IS adds a little weight but doesn't require a large lens to pull off. (But that said, the rumor says this new EF-M 32 f/1.4 will be without IS.)
> ...



Unfortunately, the Sigma isn't in thedatabase but, the 35/2 is.

BTW: is 32mm a FL that benefits from a short flange distance?

B.


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## Etienne (Aug 21, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Canon sells most, yada yada, yawn. You may start to re-consider your incessant use of that line of argumentation, when Sony already sells more FF ILCs in the USA.



Sony claimed top spot last week .... https://www.dpreview.com/news/09472...-full-frame-interchangeable-lens-camera-sales

Sony takes 5 of 18 awards at EISA ... https://www.dpreview.com/news/0238379267/sony-takes-five-at-the-2018-19-eisa-awards


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## fullstop (Aug 21, 2018)

Bambel said:


> BTW: is 32mm a FL that benefits from a short flange distance?



Yes. It should. Would they make it a 32/*1.8* it could likely be almost as tiny and inexpensive as the 22/2. But, oh no, it's gotta be f/1.4 because a few forum denizens and reviewers have incessantly flagellated Canon EF-M lens lineup for "not having any fast primes". lol.


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## Mikehit (Aug 21, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Canon sells most, yada yada, yawn. You may start to re-consider your incessant use of that line of argumentation, when Sony already sells more FF ILCs in the USA.



let's see if they can maintain that shall we before we write of Canon.
And Canon does not really care about USA. It looks globally.


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## woodman411 (Aug 21, 2018)

Uneternal said:


> No new camera this year and Canon will be pretty much screwed this festival/xmas season.
> With Sony probably lowering their prices by at least 200 bucks and people probably already preordering the new Nikon next month - Good luck...
> I don't know if it's so smart waiting till next year if the mirrorless war is already on and so many pros already switched to Sony cause Canon keeps the rumor machine going since at least 2 years but still has no competeting product against Sony A7II/A7III, also cause the 6D2 was a massive letdown.
> 
> Personally, I'm a big Canon fan. But if they don't WANT to make money it's their fault. I'm really tempted to jump on the Sony wagon.



Have you seen Canon prices recently? 5d4 bodies on eBay brand new were going for $2150 a few days ago gray market (they're up slightly now, but that just means it's heading down again soon), that's a7iii territory! 6d2 bodies going for close to $1,000. EF 24-70 f/2.8 II and 70-200 f/2.8 II going for less than $1,500. Prices fluctuate, gray market, but still, these are brand new. The IQ-to-value proposition heavily favors Canon over Sony.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 21, 2018)

ecpu said:


> What I don't understand is... why be so unbelievably secretive about FF Mirrorless... given their position vs sony and nikon, wouldn't a "leak" or development announcement be a good thing? I mean, if people knew the camera was coming, surely they would be less likely to jump ship?
> 
> Personally, I need something with much better video capabilities than my 6DII and I just like what mirrorless cameras have to offer. I consider switching to sony every day because as far as I can tell... we could very well be nowhere near a FF mirrorless from canon.



I've never understood why people compare two cameras that are primarily still cameras with video capability if they're only concerned about video.

Whether Canon or Sony, for shooting video: Get a video camera!


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## Mikehit (Aug 21, 2018)

woodman411 said:


> Have you seen Canon prices recently? 5d4 bodies on eBay brand new were going for $2150 a few days ago gray market (they're up slightly now, but that just means it's heading down again soon), that's a7iii territory!



Since when has ebay been any mark of product value? 5DIV prices have hardly shifted here in UK for 2 years which suggests ebay, even at those prices, is no threat at all so they do not need to drop prices. 



woodman411 said:


> The IQ-to-value proposition heavily favors Canon over Sony.


And it has done for what, 7 years? And Sony has still hardly made a dent in its market position globally. Considering the number of times this has been mentioned I find it astounding that people able to work a compute cannot understand one thing: statements like yours prove that the spec sheet is not the main buying driver for most people. Sure, some will be turned but they are clearly in the minority.


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## Michael Clark (Aug 21, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> I've chosen to stay a Canon shooter but I need another body NOW. Choices are: (1) buy a 5D-IV which is great but long-in-the-tooth; or (2) wait for FF ML or new 5DS-II or Leica compact FF ...



If it's just a stopgap measure, get a 6D Mark II. It's much cheaper and it's newer. You'll probably recover a higher percentage of what you paid if you sell it when the camera you're waiting on comes along because the 6D Mark III isn't expected until about 2022. Plus it's usually easier to sell lower priced cameras used than higher priced ones, as there is less perceived "risk" by the buyer.

All forum bashing aside, mostly by those who have never even seen one in person, those who shoot with them like them.

The AF is an entirely higher level than the 6D you're currently using, the image quality is as good as the 6D (within the margin of what Uncle Roger likes to say, "It's measurable in a lab, but you'll probably never notice it.").


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## Michael Clark (Aug 21, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> let's see if they can maintain that shall we before we write of Canon.
> And Canon does not really care about USA. It looks globally.



Yeah, I mean only roughly half of all ILCs sold worldwide are sold in the U.S., right?


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 21, 2018)

ecpu said:


> I was thinking more that they 1.) don't have a competitive FF mirrorless (sony), and 2.) they aren't even teasing or hyping one up (nikon).
> 
> Overall sales figures aside, I'm not sure ignoring a market segment is a good idea (if that turns out to be what they're doing).


I don't think they're ignoring it, they just want to be the last ones to the table. They did that with the EOS M, and five years later the M line became the best selling MILC line globally (granted, it helps that Canon has only one line).


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2018)

Bambel said:


> Unfortunately, the Sigma isn't in thedatabase but, the 35/2 is.
> 
> BTW: is 32mm a FL that benefits from a short flange distance?
> 
> B.



Yes. It won't remotely be as big as the adapted 35 f/2 you showed. I'd imagine it would look about as big on the EOS M as that 35 f/2 lens without the adaptor. But it won't be a pancake. It'll be a stout little nugget, but surely smaller than the EF (or adaptor) mounted size of that lens.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 21, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> Yeah, I mean only roughly half of all ILCs sold worldwide are sold in the U.S., right?


Apparently you pull your "facts" from the same nether orifice AvTvM gets his...or maybe you get yours more locally and someplace cleaner, say...from a box of Cracker Jacks. Regardless, according to CIPA for the 6-month period we're talking about, 18% of ILCs went to the Americas (which comprise more than just the US, last time I checked).


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## ahsanford (Aug 21, 2018)

Oh snap. Nokishita just posted the mother lode of Nikon FF mirrorless leaks. Looks fairly legit.

https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...ave-finally-leaked-mother-lode-of-info.35634/

(comment there, not on this thread -- thx)

- A


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## Don Haines (Aug 21, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Apparently you pull your "facts" from the same nether orifice AvTvM gets his...or maybe you get yours more locally and someplace cleaner, say...from a box of Cracker Jacks. Regardless, according to CIPA for the 6-month period we're talking about, 18% of ILCs went to the Americas (which comprise more than just the US, last time I checked).


That’s right! Some of them go to Canada where we take pictures of maple syrup and beavers in the snow


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## fullstop (Aug 21, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Apparently you pull your "facts" from the same nether orifice AvTvM gets his...or maybe you get yours more locally and someplace cleaner, say...from a box of Cracker Jacks. Regardless, according to CIPA for the 6-month period we're talking about, 18% of ILCs went to the Americas (which comprise more than just the US, last time I checked).



reported for totally unnecessary personal attacks.

geographic distribution for FF ILCs would be interesting, but not available from CIPA. 

For Europe I would also not be too sure about Canon's lead over Sony for FF ILCs in 2018. I assume Sony is still behind, otherwise they would for sure have bragged about it. But by how much (units and value) would be really interesting. 

And whether or not Canon being "last to the FF mirrorfree party" is ontentional or not, is also highly questionable. Even then, they would be well served by giving clear abd official information to their customer base, which direction and timeframe they are heading re. mirrorfree FF system if they want to stop the increasing bleeding and perception that they are just laggards, rather than self-proclaimed "leaders".


----------



## Adelino (Aug 21, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> That’s right! Some of them go to Canada where we take pictures of maple syrup and beavers in the snow


Do you ever get beavers with maple syrup?


----------



## hmatthes (Aug 21, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> The AF is an entirely higher level than the 6D you're currently using, the image quality is as good as the 6D


Thank you -- I've never used the 6D-II. I'll borrow one from CPS and giver 'er a go...


----------



## Ozarker (Aug 21, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> I've chosen to stay a Canon shooter but I need another body NOW. Choices are: (1) buy a 5D-IV which is great but long-in-the-tooth; or (2) wait for FF ML or new 5DS-II or Leica compact FF ...



5D IV "long in the tooth" LOL! wow. You're right. It would probably hold you back. You should absolutely go buy the Leica.


----------



## gn100 (Aug 22, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> A new M5 with weather resistance and uncropped DPAF 4K and a swivel screen would be welcome. I'd have a hard time not picking one up.


I'm the same - exactly what I'm looking for .... Im keen for something small but lack of weather resistence is my main concern. I really like the tilt and swivel screens as well. 

Would also be nice to have a higher quality 24-70 (or similar) equivalent lens ..... oh, and IBIS too would be nice (but less likely)!


----------



## Woody (Aug 22, 2018)

Same here. Very excited about the EF-M 32mm f/1.4 lens. 

Hopefully it's available by end Sep-2018. Please, pretty pretty please.


----------



## woodman411 (Aug 22, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Since when has ebay been any mark of product value? 5DIV prices have hardly shifted here in UK for 2 years which suggests ebay, even at those prices, is no threat at all so they do not need to drop prices.
> 
> 
> And it has done for what, 7 years? And Sony has still hardly made a dent in its market position globally. Considering the number of times this has been mentioned I find it astounding that people able to work a compute cannot understand one thing: statements like yours prove that the spec sheet is not the main buying driver for most people. Sure, some will be turned but they are clearly in the minority.



First of all, I'm really sorry you can't get USA prices in the UK. To make it worse, we usually don't pay any sales tax either (or VAT). And we have Greentoe and CanonPriceWatch, who usually can match gray market prices from authorized Canon retailers, plus no sales tax. Does that make it worse for you?  Anyway, I was responding to a post that said Canon will have a hard time (selling cameras) this shopping season. My point was, no they wont - if Canon is competitive with Sony at the same price points, how much more so at lower ones.


----------



## transpo1 (Aug 22, 2018)

ecpu said:


> I was thinking more that they 1.) don't have a competitive FF mirrorless (sony), and 2.) they aren't even teasing or hyping one up (nikon).
> 
> Overall sales figures aside, I'm not sure ignoring a market segment is a good idea (if that turns out to be what they're doing).



Canon's position is that *they're about to* sell *less FF* ILCs than Sony and Nikon combined. 

Fixed this for you, Neuro


----------



## rightslot (Aug 22, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Possibly we can give Canon a bit of credit here. Canon is a more conservative company than Nikon and certainly more conservative than Sony or Fuji. 

But just because they don't allow "leaks" does not mean that they are not SERIOUSLY working to get it done. Watch. When they put out the new hardware it will be a bit more simple to use, more intuitive and easier to handle (physically). 

Times are changing. But since this camera stuff is not actually revolutionary but evolutionary WE WHO HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE should be able to chill a bit.


----------



## Woody (Aug 22, 2018)

Allow me to repeat this:

"Canon — Initially a follower in film SLR, eventually a leader in autofocus SLR; then a follower in DSLR that again flipped to leader; then a follower in mirrorless which may be flipping to leader. Sense a pattern there? *Canon isn't generally the first mover, but when they move they move. I think that anyone who underestimates the EOS M and whatever full frame mirrorless Canon decides to produce needs to rethink their position.* I'd call Canon opportunistic and well managed. I wouldn't call them the innovator that's going to trigger the next changeover in camera designs by leading the way, but they are *quick to understand when that changeover is occurring*. *Follower that becomes a Winner*."
- http://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/who-leads-who-follows-who.html


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## rightslot (Aug 22, 2018)

Couldn't agree more. Let's wait and see ---qui sequitur longe cognoscit


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Canon's position is that *they're about to* sell *less FF* ILCs than Sony and Nikon combined.
> 
> Fixed this for you, Neuro


Why are you here? I'm surprised you haven't bought Sony yet. No, not a Sony MILC...Sony. The company. After all, between gambling and the stock market your clairvoyance should have made you richer than Warren Buffet married to Jeff Bezos. Buying Sony (or Canon, but why would you want _them_) should just be pocket change for you.


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## justawriter (Aug 22, 2018)

I saw a glimmer of the future the other day. There was a petapixel article comparing Sony and Canon AF or IS or something with sample photos. The article said whatever it was was about the same for both companies. But at least half the comment section was all about "Why are the colors in the Sony photos so shitty?" Once the mirrorless hype is no longer a factor, Sony is in deep doo-doo.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2018)

fullstop said:


> reported for totally unnecessary personal attacks..


How about this? You stop posting made-up sh!t, and I'll stop calling you out on the fact that your posts stink. 

Meanwhile, why don't you explain how my 'personal attacks' against you are unwarranted, but you feel perfectly within your rights to insult entire age groups and ethnic groups. 

Yeah, that's what I thought.


----------



## vjlex (Aug 22, 2018)

I wonder how many hundreds of dollars the EF-M 32mm f/1.4 will be? Maybe I'll have to sell my 50mm f/1.8 STM that it would be replacing to offset it. I guess I better start setting my loose change aside.


----------



## transpo1 (Aug 22, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Why are you here? I'm surprised you haven't bought Sony yet. No, not a Sony MILC...Sony. The company. After all, between gambling and the stock market your clairvoyance should have made you richer than Warren Buffet married to Jeff Bezos. Buying Sony (or Canon, but why would you want _them_) should just be pocket change for you.



Hey, no need to get angry just because I'm right


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Hey, no need to get angry just because I'm right


I'm not angry at all. Clearly your clairvoyance leaves much to be desired.

You knew I'd say that, didn't you?


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## eosuser1234 (Aug 22, 2018)

We all know normal P&S digital cameras have been taken over by cellphone market. APS-C only has so much longer life until cellphone cameras, sensors, and their in phone processing have pushed APS-C aside, and FF and MF are what photographers want. This is evident by the slowing of M4/3 cameras and 1" inch sensor projects being called off. Photographers who want to take nice photos will continue to invest in new equipment as it evolves to meet their evolving definition of standards and being better than their fellow lense buddies. For everyday people a cellphone is meeting their current needs with satisfactory quality, and portal to their favorite online social platform. The statistic of Sony being the top FF market leader is interesting indeed. I still am holding out for Canon to hit a home run in the next 18 months, but I must admit when I see photographers gather here in Japan, everyone (yes everyone Nikon guys and girl, and Canon Guys and Girls, and Pentax guys and girls) goes to the guy with the Sony product to ask him about his Sony.


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## Don Haines (Aug 22, 2018)

Adelino said:


> Do you ever get beavers with maple syrup?


Maybe........


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## UserM4 (Aug 22, 2018)

What's with people's ultimatums that Canon had better bring out a FF mirrorless immediately or else they're gonna jump ship and that Canon's going to be in financial ruin? Lol. Isn't it your loss if you jump and when Canon brings out their FF and it's just everything you've ever wanted? Not to mention that although camera tech may advance every year, lenses really don't. And Canon lenses are just about the best there are for the money. And Sony, having a lot of sales, well of course they did. They release a new camera every couple of years. And since mirrorless tech seems to have advanced so quickly, they had no choice. Not to mention that they've been at it with FF mirrorless for quite some time now. But when mirrorless technology plateau's then what? Are people going to raise their pitchforks? They can't just polish an old turd and hope it'll sell. Eventually people will catch on. There's really nothing wrong with a long life cycle. As long as the new model has truly advanced and refined. Sony is far from refined if you ask me. As a Sony dealer, I can tell you that they lack in so many departments that other lines in their company is utter garbage. Up until a few years ago, Sony was a Playstation company first, then everything else (tv, portables, audio, car, cameras) a distant second. And in those other departments, they're severely x10^3 mismanaged. Look, products go in cycles and one year, brand x will be on top. Then next year, brand y. The year after that, brand z. Internally, it takes times to R&D for a revolutionary product. And good things come to those who wait.


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## Mr Majestyk (Aug 22, 2018)

Very lame offerings overall if this is it. Two unaffordable lenses and no cameras. Oh well Nikon hasn't disappointed at least.


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## Mikehit (Aug 22, 2018)

Adelino said:


> Do you ever get beavers with maple syrup?



Only when they are wrestling.


----------



## Mikehit (Aug 22, 2018)

woodman411 said:


> First of all, I'm really sorry you can't get USA prices in the UK. To make it worse, we usually don't pay any sales tax either (or VAT). And we have Greentoe and CanonPriceWatch, who usually can match gray market prices from authorized Canon retailers, plus no sales tax. Does that make it worse for you?  Anyway, I was responding to a post that said Canon will have a hard time (selling cameras) this shopping season. My point was, no they wont - if Canon is competitive with Sony at the same price points, how much more so at lower ones.



That makes no difference to my point. FYI, the grey market goods in UK are generally about 20-25% cheaper than the High Street which sorta suggests they are avoiding VAT, which matches your description of prices in the US and how a shop can offer at grey market prices. But that does not avoid the fact prices of 5DIV in UK have been relatively stable for the last 2 years, nor does it avoid the fact that relying on ebay prices to support an argument is dodgy in the extreme.
And my point is that Canon clearly does not need to reduce its prices (if it did they would have done so) yet Sony with supposedly superior products need to reduce theirs to compete with Canon.

That is the problem with the market - it gives a genuine picture of what the population as a whole thinks of a product. I am not saying that Canon does not need to respond because it clearly does. My point is, and always has been, that the urgency with which they need to respond is far, far lower than the doom-mongers, Sony fanboys, and geen-eyed Sony wannabes (those wishing Canon would copy them) make out.


----------



## Architect1776 (Aug 22, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> I've chosen to stay a Canon shooter but I need another body NOW. Choices are: (1) buy a 5D-IV which is great but long-in-the-tooth; or (2) wait for FF ML or new 5DS-II or Leica compact FF ...



Do you "Need" another body or just want one to help with GAS. I believe most are bought because of want not need unless it is broken or some esoteric feature not on the current camera. I am sort of glad Canon is waiting still. Let Nikon get the rave reviews then let canon look and see what is there and features. Perhaps they will listen regarding desires this time and provide them with the next go around of bodies. They still have the best lenses.


----------



## sdz (Aug 22, 2018)

Photorex said:


> after Christmas is before next Christmas
> 
> Are the kind of cameras, most of us here expect, really typical Christmas presents?



No, they are not, now that you mention it.


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## Stuart (Aug 22, 2018)

It seems bad that Canon don't look to compete at this time, instead they are releasing lenses that are shorter and lighter. 
Will this be enough to stave of the reignited Nikon interest and their new enabling mount?


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## rrcphoto (Aug 22, 2018)

It's a curious silence from the rumor mill to what Canon will be coming out with this photokina. I don't think Canon has ever done a photokina without somewhat of a splash on a camera body of some sort. So for them to go into PhotoKina and the last biannual one at that with nothing but lenses, seems, well odd.


----------



## IWLP (Aug 22, 2018)

I'm much less concerned about Canon's mirrorless entry and much more worried about the lack of updates in the APS-C mirrorslapper space.

I have a 70D that I would like to replace (ergonomic issues), but I have a hard time spending money to replace it with a 7D Mark II, which was last iterated 4 years ago. In that timeframe, Nikon released the very compelling D500, leaving Canon's wide-spaced iterations looking more than a little flat. With the ongoing consumerization of the X0D line, I need something that is made for adult-sized hands with modern amenities and image quality. Four plus years to iterate a semi-pro body falls flat for me, especially since the 7D to 7d II release gap saw Nikon sit on a venerable line of DSLR bodies itself. If Canon does prefer to let the market move before it makes its play, it's past time.

And no, I don't want to jump to full-frame, which totally blows up my lens configuration. My employer would not appreciate the whole thought of "yes, I need this $3500 camera body, but then I need an extra $5000-$8000 worth of lenses to get me back to where I am today." It's a bit of a hard sell.

$.02


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## MrAndre (Aug 22, 2018)

After thinking about it, I am guessing that Canon’s new mount to Ef adapter just is not good enough yet. 

They know that this adapter working 100% is the best bet to make people stay with canon, because the lens ecosystem is Canon’s number one selling point.

Sitting on a finished camera and waiting for its specs to fade in comparison does just not sound plausible to me!


----------



## Mikehit (Aug 22, 2018)

MrAndre said:


> After thinking about it, I am guessing that Canon’s new mount to Ef adapter just is not good enough yet.
> 
> They know that this adapter working 100% is the best bet to make people stay with canon, because the lens ecosystem is Canon’s number one selling point.
> 
> Sitting on a finished camera and waiting for its specs to fade in comparison does just not sound plausible to me!



I am not sure what your point is.


----------



## transpo1 (Aug 22, 2018)

Very interesting report over on the Sony sites- I'm interested to know what everyone thinks of this 

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-now-has-40-of-the-us-full-frame-market-share/

*Sony Market Share By Percentage 1H 2018
BrandU.S. Dollar Share*

Sony 40%
Canon 33%
Nikon 26%

Source: The NPD Group, Inc., U.S. Retail Tracking Service, Detachable Lens Camera, Sensor Size: Full Frame, Based on Dollars Share, Jan.- Jun. 2018.


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## amorse (Aug 22, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Very interesting report over on the Sony sites- I'm interested to know what everyone thinks of this
> 
> https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-now-has-40-of-the-us-full-frame-market-share/
> 
> ...


I think it makes sense - Sony has released 2 FF cameras recently, while Canon has released 0 - of course they will sell more immediately following a release. The surprising part for me is how low Nikon is with the D850 release being relatively recent, and receiving significant praise. 

Considering that the D850 has been called the best camera ever built by a number of blogs/vloggers/media outlets, the fact that it hasn't turned the tides at all for Nikon tells me that spec measuring doesn't have much of an impact on sales. Further, Nikon made the same announcement in December last year and in that short period of time they've fallen to 26% - it shows how transient these type of statistics are.

This data is sales in one country over 6 months, for one subsegment (Full frame). Canon still holds ~50% of the whole market because they sell so many cameras around the world in all segments. As I've said before, when Sony holds over 50% of the whole market for a whole Canon release cycle, then Sony would be clearly leading the pack. Until then it's anybody's guess.


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## transpo1 (Aug 22, 2018)

amorse said:


> I think it makes sense - Sony has released 2 FF cameras recently, while Canon has released 0 - of course they will sell more immediately following a release. The surprising part for me is how low Nikon is with the D850 release being relatively recent, and receiving significant praise.
> 
> Considering that the D850 has been called the best camera ever built by a number of blogs/vloggers/media outlets, the fact that it hasn't turned the tides at all for Nikon tells me that spec measuring doesn't have much of an impact on sales. Further, Nikon made the same announcement in December last year and in that short period of time they've fallen to 26% - it shows how transient these type of statistics are.
> 
> This data is sales in one country over 6 months, for one subsegment (Full frame). Canon still holds ~50% of the whole market because they sell so many cameras around the world in all segments. As I've said before, when Sony holds over 50% of the whole market for a whole Canon release cycle, then Sony would be clearly leading the pack. Until then it's anybody's guess.



There's another way to interpret this as well- Sony has the lead with FF because they're the only ones who have FF MILCs. These are cameras with new technology that are more lightweight (at least, the bodies are) and with EVFs suitable for video shooting. The tech is new, and educated FF buyers seem to want it. 

Once Nikon, and finally, Canon, come out with their FF MILCs, we'll see whether Sony can maintain that lead. 

My hope is that Canon and Nikon pull out all the stops (no pun intended) in regards to features and specs, especially in regards to video, and fulfill the legacy of the late, great 5DII's FF video features, which started the HDSLR revolution. If they can also give us competitive DR and low light along with FF 4K 60p and Clog, not many people will care about Sony anymore.


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## nchoh (Aug 22, 2018)

amorse said:


> I think it makes sense - Sony has released 2 FF cameras recently, while Canon has released 0 - of course they will sell more immediately following a release. The surprising part for me is how low Nikon is with the D850 release being relatively recent, and receiving significant praise.
> 
> Considering that the D850 has been called the best camera ever built by a number of blogs/vloggers/media outlets, the fact that it hasn't turned the tides at all for Nikon tells me that spec measuring doesn't have much of an impact on sales. Further, Nikon made the same announcement in December last year and in that short period of time they've fallen to 26% - it shows how transient these type of statistics are.
> 
> This data is sales in one country over 6 months, for one subsegment (Full frame). Canon still holds ~50% of the whole market because they sell so many cameras around the world in all segments. As I've said before, when Sony holds over 50% of the whole market for a whole Canon release cycle, then Sony would be clearly leading the pack. Until then it's anybody's guess.



Sony sold 40% of FF by $ for H1. Canon sold 33%.

It's not a good trend for Canon but, there are a few points worth considering...

Sony and Canon are about the same size. Sony is basically an electronics company while Canon is an imaging company. I am sure that Canon will not just let Sony eat its lunch.
Canon still doesn't have a FF mirrorless in the market. If they had a competitive product, I am sure that they would capture top spot.
Based on Canon's history and the position of FF mirrorless, Canon is probably making sure it gets it right before releasing it's FF mirrorless.


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## UserM4 (Aug 22, 2018)

nchoh said:


> Based on Canon's history and the position of FF mirrorless, Canon is probably making sure it gets it right before releasing it's FF mirrorless.



I'm not in the market so it's easy for me to say but I would rather see Canon bring out a no compromise camera later than a place holder now. I'm hoping that they are still ran by engineers rather than accountants. But a public company has to stay relevant so it wouldn't surprise me if they introduced one real soon but with a few key features missing.


----------



## mppix (Aug 22, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> I've chosen to stay a Canon shooter but I need another body NOW. Choices are: (1) buy a 5D-IV which is great but long-in-the-tooth; or (2) wait for FF ML or new 5DS-II or Leica compact FF ...



Long story short, the 5D IV (and 6D II) are among the finest cameras out there (among several others). Both can make you famous. Like any camera, they have limitations that one can effectively mitigate by knowing their gear.

I don't hesitate to recommend the 5DIV (that I own). Waiting is always an option but we rarely get what we want/exprect..
Then, Leicas are different. To me, they are the trophy-wife equivalent - you'll like the "night" but she ain't going to "cook".


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## mppix (Aug 22, 2018)

amorse said:


> I think it makes sense - Sony has released 2 FF cameras recently, while Canon has released 0 - of course they will sell more immediately following a release. The surprising part for me is how low Nikon is with the D850 release being relatively recent, and receiving significant praise.
> 
> Considering that the D850 has been called the best camera ever built by a number of blogs/vloggers/media outlets, the fact that it hasn't turned the tides at all for Nikon tells me that spec measuring doesn't have much of an impact on sales. Further, Nikon made the same announcement in December last year and in that short period of time they've fallen to 26% - it shows how transient these type of statistics are.
> 
> This data is sales in one country over 6 months, for one subsegment (Full frame). Canon still holds ~50% of the whole market because they sell so many cameras around the world in all segments. As I've said before, when Sony holds over 50% of the whole market for a whole Canon release cycle, then Sony would be clearly leading the pack. Until then it's anybody's guess.



Interesting but does not say much without access to the actual market report. Googling "The NPD Group, Inc., Full frame cameras" results in a range of 2018 articles where either Sony or Nikon celebrates the No. 1 spot. I guess it's like the stock (or currency exchange) market. If you look at the right window and segment, everyone is a winner.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2018)

MrAndre said:


> After thinking about it, I am guessing that Canon’s new mount to Ef adapter just is not good enough yet.
> 
> They know that this adapter working 100% is the best bet to make people stay with canon, because the lens ecosystem is Canon’s number one selling point.
> 
> Sitting on a finished camera and waiting for its specs to fade in comparison does just not sound plausible to me!


But you think Canon being unable to successfully design an empty tube with a female EF mount on one end, a male 'EF-X' mount on the other end, and a mechanical lens release switch on the side and maybe a tripod foot *does* sound plausible?!?!? 

Sheesh.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> There's another way to interpret this as well- Sony has the lead with FF because they're the only ones who have FF MILCs. These are cameras with new technology that are more lightweight (at least, the bodies are) and with EVFs suitable for video shooting. *The tech is new,* and educated FF buyers seem to want it.


There are lots of ways to interpret any piece of information, but some are logical while others are nonsensical. The tech has been around since Sony launched the a7 and a7R in 2013. Hardly new. Yet only now (in one country, for a short time period) is Sony ahead of Canon for FF ILC revenues. The tech isn't different, what's changed is the recent launch of zero FF ILCs by Canon vs. 2 FF ILCs from Sony – one at <$2K (and lower cost is what buyers really want, your "educated buyers" tripe notwithstanding).


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 22, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> But you think Canon being unable to successfully design an empty tube with a female EF mount on one end, a male 'EF-X' mount on the other end, and a mechanical lens release switch on the side and maybe a tripod foot *does* sound plausible?!?!?
> 
> Sheesh.


Jeez there Neuro..... chill out! It's not that simple..... There have to be 11 wires in it too!


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Jeez there Neuro..... chill out! It's not that simple..... There have to be 11 wires in it too!


Meh. My grandma and her soldering gun could take care of that.


----------



## mppix (Aug 22, 2018)

Stuart said:


> It seems bad that Canon don't look to compete at this time, instead they are releasing lenses that are shorter and lighter.
> Will this be enough to stave of the reignited Nikon interest and their new enabling mount?



If a company like Nikon changes mount, it surely ignites interest but we'll have to see whether it enables. Overall, Nikon DSLR seem to be harder to adapt for mirrorless (F-mount limitations, only contrast AF). It would nearly seem as Nikon feels the pressure of falling market shares resulting in a need to innovate. Change the mount is certainly a risk and there is an even bigger risk to depend on supplied key technologies: sensors with compelling AF, and potentially even the 5-axis stabilization. I'm sure there is a logic but it would certainly seem as if the only supplier is becoming the main competitor. 
(Disclaimer: I have no information who produces the Nikon MILC sensor or in-body stabilization but would be -very- surprised if it was Nikon)

Canon is different - they seem to either develop in-house or not offer a feature. Then, EF is not really a technical limit, e.g. a 5D IV without mirror (but good EVF) could actually be a compelling product. EF lenses are used across the industry in fotos and video (Canon sold, by far, more EF lenses since 1987 than Nikon sold Nikkor lenses since 1959). For Canon, there is even more at stake and waiting may very well be the best bet. Its entirely possible that they have 2 MILC tooled up (or 1 where the mount can be changed) and are fine-tuning their marketing strategies.


----------



## tron (Aug 22, 2018)

I believe they try to make the exactly opposite convertor. To connect the poor little silly new future short lenses that they will supposedly design for the delight of a few forum users to the classic forever living EF mount


----------



## tron (Aug 22, 2018)

And, they use their time to design the new super 7DMkIII and 5DsRII cameras. Because, no matter what internet surfers - and not necessarily Canon users - say the above cameras would sell a lot!


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## mppix (Aug 22, 2018)

tron said:


> I believe they try to make the exactly opposite convertor. To connect the poor little silly new future short lenses that they will supposedly design for the delight of a few forum users to the classic forever living EF mount


Technically, it is possible to fit a pancake inside a 5D once you remove the mirror 



tron said:


> And, they use their time to design the new super 7DMkIII and 5DsRII cameras. Because, no matter what internet surfers - and not necessarily Canon users - say the above cameras would sell a lot!


Ditto to that.


----------



## zim (Aug 22, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Jeez there Neuro..... chill out! It's not that simple..... There have to be 11 wires in it too!



right that's it, if it doesn't have at least 15 they'll still be playing catch-up with the market leader so I'm offtt. Cnon.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2018)

zim said:


> right that's it, if it doesn't have at least 15 they'll still be playing catch-up with the market leader so I'm offtt. Cnon.


Yeah, Canon needs more wires to improve their lens DR.


----------



## brad-man (Aug 23, 2018)

Since it seems very unlikely that Canon will be releasing a FF MILC this year, I don't understand why this thread was put in the _Bodies _section. It should have been placed in the _Lens _category, since the real headline is they're going to release a frickin' EF-M f/1.4 lens! It's not a Sony GM or Zeiss that'll cost $1000+. It's not a puny little micro 4/3 from Fuji. It's a Canon crop f/1.4! History in the making...


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 23, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> That makes no difference to my point. FYI, the grey market goods in UK are generally about 20-25% cheaper than the High Street which sorta suggests they are avoiding VAT, which matches your description of prices in the US and how a shop can offer at grey market prices. But that does not avoid the fact prices of 5DIV in UK have been relatively stable for the last 2 years, nor does it avoid the fact that relying on ebay prices to support an argument is dodgy in the extreme.
> And my point is that Canon clearly does not need to reduce its prices (if it did they would have done so) yet Sony with supposedly superior products need to reduce theirs to compete with Canon.
> 
> That is the problem with the market - it gives a genuine picture of what the population as a whole thinks of a product. I am not saying that Canon does not need to respond because it clearly does. My point is, and always has been, that the urgency with which they need to respond is far, far lower than the doom-mongers, Sony fanboys, and geen-eyed Sony wannabes (those wishing Canon would copy them) make out.



The prices of grey market goods in the US are not based on avoiding VAT.

The U.S. has no VAT nor any other form of national sales/consumption tax. All sales taxes are assessed at the state and local level and vary greatly, but it is rare for the rate to be greater than 10% anywhere. Some places they are much less. When ordering from an online seller that does not have a physical presence in the state to which the item is being delivered, there is very often zero sales tax on the item at all.


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## transpo1 (Aug 23, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> There are lots of ways to interpret any piece of information, but some are logical while others are nonsensical. The tech has been around since Sony launched the a7 and a7R in 2013. Hardly new. Yet only now (in one country, for a short time period) is Sony ahead of Canon for FF ILC revenues. The tech isn't different, what's changed is the recent launch of zero FF ILCs by Canon vs. 2 FF ILCs from Sony – one at <$2K (and lower cost is what buyers really want, your "educated buyers" tripe notwithstanding).



So you’re saying that if Canon launched the 6DII now, they would be outselling Sony? That seems quite a dubious claim  (Also, quite interesting that Nikon has not been #1 in FF sales in the U.S. in the past year with its D850, since that was a recently released FF camera and by your standards, “newness” is what counts.)

Low cost here is not the issue because Canon has two FF cameras well below the $2K mark- the 6D and 6DII @ $999 and $1599. And actually, you can even buy a 6DII with 24-105L lens for $2499- quite a steal! The equivalent Sony A7III package would run you over $3K. So given all of that, it seems extremely unlikely Sony is selling just on cost either. 

And I quote from Nikkei Asian Review, for anyone who missed it:

_“Canon will shift more of its focus to mirrorless cameras, a change in strategy spurred by sharp growth in the market. [...]

With mirrorless cameras rapidly gaining popularity and rivals like Sony breaking into SLRs, Canon decided it must ‘actively roll out products for a growth market even if there is some cannibalization,’ Sakata said.”_

So there it is. It is Sony’s overall package of FF mirrorless tech in a small package that is getting the dollars, and we can surmise that specs such as DR, low light capability, and 4K video play a big part. 

(Anecdotally, two photographer friends in NYC just had a choice to make to buy their first FF cameras- it was between Nikon, Canon, and Sony- one even remarked how she loved the Canon colors, etc. But eventually they both chose Sony A7IIIs on the basis of DR, low light capability, and value.)

Maybe it’s true that the novelty of mirrorless and value of better specs will wear off eventually, but so far, in the first half of 2018, they have not. 

Nonsensical argument? Nope- pretty sound reasoning here actually- And I actually backed it up with a quote.


----------



## Michael Clark (Aug 23, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Apparently you pull your "facts" from the same nether orifice AvTvM gets his...or maybe you get yours more locally and someplace cleaner, say...from a box of Cracker Jacks. Regardless, according to CIPA for the 6-month period we're talking about, 18% of ILCs went to the Americas (which comprise more than just the US, last time I checked).



And apparently your ability to spew poorly conceived sarcasm far exceeds your ability to perceive it.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> So you’re saying that if Canon launched the 6DII now, they would be outselling Sony? That seems quite a dubious claim  (Also, quite interesting that Nikon has not been #1 in FF sales in the U.S. in the past year with its D850, since that was a recently released FF camera and by your standards, “newness” is what counts.)


Have you tried shopping for a D850 in the past 6 months? They've been backordered at all major online retailers (although there are a few 3rd party sellers on Amazon selling them for several hundred dollars over MSRP). Kinda hard to sell cameras if they're not available, 'eh?

If Canon had launched a 6DIII at the beginning of the year, I'd bet real $$$ we'd not have seen Sony announcing a lead in FF ILCs in the US for 1H18.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> And apparently your ability to spew poorly conceived sarcasm far exceeds your ability to perceive it.


LOL. Try to be more clear with the intent of your sarcasm, mate. Mikehit stated that Canon doesn't care about the US, so your sarcastic reply that 50% of ILCs are sold in the US came off as something you believed, stated in sarcastic tone. Now, it seems you're backpedaling when presented with the actual facts.


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## dak723 (Aug 23, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> There's another way to interpret this as well- Sony has the lead with FF because they're the only ones who have FF MILCs. These are cameras with new technology that are more lightweight (at least, the bodies are) and with EVFs suitable for video shooting. The tech is new, and educated FF buyers seem to want it.



Well, you might say "educated FF buyers," but as someone who believed the Sony hype a couple years ago, I would say "gullible suckers..."


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## 3kramd5 (Aug 23, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Company A’s position is that they're about to sell *FEWER* FF ILCs than Company B and C combined.



Fixed this for you, transpo


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## transpo1 (Aug 23, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Have you tried shopping for a D850 in the past 6 months? They've been backordered at all major online retailers (although there are a few 3rd party sellers on Amazon selling them for several hundred dollars over MSRP). Kinda hard to sell cameras if they're not available, 'eh?
> 
> If Canon had launched a 6DIII at the beginning of the year, I'd bet real $$$ we'd not have seen Sony announcing a lead in FF ILCs in the US for 1H18.



Well, low FF sales numbers due to lack of manufacturing capacity are still low FF sales numbers- it still counts. Or rather, it doesn’t count- for Nikon. 

As for the 6DIII, if it were a 6DIII without a mirror and with the specs I mentioned, I’d say your wager would be right.


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## amorse (Aug 23, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> So you’re saying that if Canon launched the 6DII now, they would be outselling Sony? That seems quite a dubious claim


The 6DII certainly got a bad rap, just like the 6D, but let's not forget that even the 6D was the leading full frame camera in sales on Amazon at one point. Canon even credited their hold on top marketshare in October of 2017 to strong sales of the 6D II, yes, only 3 months after the 6D II was released.



transpo1 said:


> Also, quite interesting that Nikon has not been #1 in FF sales in the U.S. in the past year with its D850, since that was a recently released FF camera and by your standards, “newness” is what counts.


Not true - D850 started shipping in September 2017, and were 1st in full frame by December 2017 or 8 months ago. Also, it was the NPB group that made the claim - the same company claiming Sony's achievement now for full frame. 

So to recap, Canon releases a full frame camera (6DII) and then claims keeping top market share because of it's positive sales. Later, Nikon releases a full frame camera, and then claims top market share. Later still, Sony releases 2 full frame cameras, and then claims top market share. This seems like a trend - releasing a full frame camera results in a short term increase in full frame sales.



transpo1 said:


> And I quote from Nikkei Asian Review, for anyone who missed it:
> 
> _“Canon will shift more of its focus to mirrorless cameras, a change in strategy spurred by sharp growth in the market. [...]_
> 
> _With mirrorless cameras rapidly gaining popularity and rivals like Sony breaking into SLRs, Canon decided it must ‘actively roll out products for a growth market even if there is some cannibalization,’ Sakata said.”_


Canon did announce their interest in putting emphasis on the mirrorless market in late February 2018. By July of this year Canon claimed top spot in mirrorless for Japan with the m50 - very much in line with their plan to shift to mirrorless. Frankly, if Canon can say "we want to shift emphasis to mirrorless" then be first in mirrorless only 6 months later, that actually speaks pretty highly of their success.

I'm not trying to insinuate what is better or what people want more, I'm just trying to show that the data all of this is based on is flawed - it's a snapshot in time. Longer term data helps to show what actual marketshare looks like, and for total marketshare Canon still has nearly 50% of the market as of August 1, 2018, and has held the top share for 15 years now. Sony could continue to grow and gain marketshare in more areas, but selling the most of one thing for a short period is not at all indicative of selling a lot of things for a long time.


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## bokehmon22 (Aug 23, 2018)

nchoh said:


> Sony sold 40% of FF by $ for H1. Canon sold 33%.
> 
> It's not a good trend for Canon but, there are a few points worth considering...
> 
> ...




Sony has a high resolution EVF 240 fps. If they can incorporated that and learn from Nikon and make a more ergonomic weather seal camera body - watch out. Tamron and Sigma commitment to E lens make it easier to switch too.


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## Bennymiata (Aug 23, 2018)

To me, mirrorless cameras are just a new fashion that so many people are really keen to jump on the bandwagon, otherwise they won't look "hip".
I've got an M5 and love it, and I've used Sonys, but in the cut and thrust of event photography, NOTHING beats a good DSLR. 
Mirrorless cameras are just too slow to react. By the time you push the shutter button and actually get the photo taken, you've lost the shot, or it's blurry because the af hasn't hunted enough to get the perfect focus but reckons that because you're pushing the shutter so hard and for so long, it better take SOMETHING.
My 5d3 is virtually instantaneous with a focus hit rate around 99%.
Maybe because I was brought up using film, but spraying and praying (if you can see much through the viewfinder with a mirrorless) isn't my style and I like to wait for the perfect moment. I usually bring home anywhere from 500 to 2,500 shots from a job, and if I sprayed and prayed, I'd have to go through tens of thousands of shots!

Obviously my needs are nothing like other peoples, but in the years to come, I can see people going back to mirrorslappers.
Nothing is as satisfying to shoot with and nothing is as comfortable to hold in your hand all day as a good DSLR.
IMHO.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Well, low FF sales numbers due to lack of manufacturing capacity are still low FF sales numbers- it still counts. Or rather, it doesn’t count- for Nikon.


Oh, agreed. But the point remains – Canon, no new FF, Nikon, one unavailable new FF, Sony 2 new FF. Easy to claim victory when no other teams show up at the match. Educated forum members see that for the hollow (local and likely transient) victory that it is.


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## Kit. (Aug 23, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Oh, agreed. But the point remains – Canon, no new FF, Nikon, one unavailable new FF, Sony 2 new FF. Easy to claim victory when no other teams show up at the match. Educated forum members see that for the hollow (local and likely transient) victory that it is.


Still, it means that "novelty" sells quite well.

Maybe it's time for Canon to create a "Youtuber" series of cameras, with cool specs, poor reliability, short market life, and PrintPublish button.


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 23, 2018)

Etienne said:


> I'll be looking closely at the Nikon FF mirrorless options. Canon could take more than another year to bring something to market. It may just be a development announcement in January, which can mean 1 to 2 years before it's in your hands. Canon can be surprisingly slow, in fact some people have been waiting for an update to the 50 f/1.4 for the better part of a decade!


I decided to take a time tunnel approach to Canon, traveled back to Canon's ML age and got two mirrorless Canon 7 bodies plus three original Canon rangefinder lenses. Canon's RF 1.4/50mm lens from early 60s e. g. does not need any upgrade. Great gear for having fun in the street, you simply shoot even without chimping on LCD screens - it's all about imagination. You can have even more fun when you enter a fancy Leica shop with that gear and ask for a fitting lens cap. And the best thing about this gear is: you can't vlog! It protects you from making yourself one of those clowns flooding all channels with their brainless blah blah.


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## memoriaphoto (Aug 23, 2018)

If the extra wait means two card slots and efficient Eye-AF, then I have no problem waiting another year. The Nikon Z release with only one card slot and no Eye AF sounds like a textbook failure of epic proportions.


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## Mikehit (Aug 23, 2018)

If Canon really wanted 2 card slots they would have built that in at the start - waiting for response to the Nikon'slack of card slot tells no-one anything more than everyone knew anyway in that some people consider it essential, some do not. If they have designed it with one slot, a few comments on social media will not change that design decision. 

And you make it sound like adding eye AF is something you wake up one morning and decide to add it. People have managed for decades without it, and although it would be great to have it is not one of those make-or-break decisions to delay one of the most anticipated announcements for Canon in years.


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## fullstop (Aug 23, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Oh, agreed. But the point remains – Canon, no new FF, Nikon, one unavailable new FF, Sony 2 new FF. Easy to claim victory when no other teams show up at the match. Educated forum members see that for the hollow (local and likely transient) victory that it is.



1. Just admit all you Canon Defense Leaguers - you would have called me really bad names, had I said Sony would ever be #1 in FF ILCs in the US for any half year. 
2. I think Sony will very likely also be #1 in FF ILCs for full year 2018.
3. If Nikon can deliver sufficient numbers of Z6/Z7 mirrorfree cameras to the US before end of 2018, I think they will be #2 for FF ILCs. ANd Canon #3. 
So well deserved, stupid errrm "innovative" Canon.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> And you make it sound like adding eye AF is something you wake up one morning and decide to add it. People have managed for decades without it, and although it would be great to have it is not one of those make-or-break decisions to delay one of the most anticipated announcements for Canon in years.


well to be fair canon is already exploring / augmenting AF with eye detection, as they just started to do that in the EOS-M50.
As DiGiC's get faster and faster, I would imagine more AF options will be available.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 1. Just admit all you Canon Defense Leaguers - you would have called me really bad names, had I said Sony would ever be #1 in FF ILCs in the US for any half year.
> 2. I think Sony will very likely also be #1 in FF ILCs for full year 2018.
> 3. If Nikon can deliver sufficient numbers of Z6/Z7 mirrorfree cameras to the US before end of 2018, I think they will be #2 for FF ILCs. ANd Canon #3.
> So well deserved, stupid errrm "innovative" Canon.


who really cares about a small segment of the ILC marketplace? in a market that only makes up 20% of the overall market? when you start to look that detailed, dramatic shifts are to be expected.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2018)

memoriaphoto said:


> If the extra wait means two card slots and efficient Eye-AF, then I have no problem waiting another year. The Nikon Z release with only one card slot and no Eye AF sounds like a textbook failure of epic proportions.


only for spec sheet watchers.

I'm sure the Z bodies will do well, they have nikon ergonomics, and like canon, nikon has a huge huge huge customer base to draw from. the only question with respects to nikon is that they always seem to have delivery issues in getting cameras out the door (or lenses as well at times) which create huge problems with massive backorders.


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## mpmark (Aug 23, 2018)

Etienne said:


> I may finally jump ship this year. I've already sold my 5D3, 70-200L f/2.8 IS II, 16-35 f/2.8 II, and 50 f/1.4. I'm just using a T7i, 77D, M3, M6 and assorted lenses for the time being. I miss the full frame but I've been holding out for news from Canon on a possible new FF mirrorless.
> Jumping to Nikon or Sony won't be too hard at this point.



don't let the door hit you on the way out...


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## mpmark (Aug 23, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 1. Just admit all you Canon Defense Leaguers - you would have called me really bad names, had I said Sony would ever be #1 in FF ILCs in the US for any half year.
> 2. I think Sony will very likely also be #1 in FF ILCs for full year 2018.
> 3. If Nikon can deliver sufficient numbers of Z6/Z7 mirrorfree cameras to the US before end of 2018, I think they will be #2 for FF ILCs. ANd Canon #3.
> So well deserved, stupid errrm "innovative" Canon.



sure, canon have no clue what they are doing, that is why the last 13 years running they have sold the most cameras each year. get a life buddy.


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## Etienne (Aug 23, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> I decided to take a time tunnel approach to Canon, traveled back to Canon's ML age and got two mirrorless Canon 7 bodies plus three original Canon rangefinder lenses. Canon's RF 1.4/50mm lens from early 60s e. g. does not need any upgrade. Great gear for having fun in the street, you simply shoot even without chimping on LCD screens - it's all about imagination. You can have even more fun when you enter a fancy Leica shop with that gear and ask for a fitting lens cap. And the best thing about this gear is: you can't vlog! It protects you from making yourself one of those clowns flooding all channels with their brainless blah blah.



Some people belong in the past ... enjoy.


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## Etienne (Aug 23, 2018)

mpmark said:


> don't let the door hit you on the way out...



Fanboyz are so sensitive


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## amorse (Aug 23, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 1. Just admit all you Canon Defense Leaguers - you would have called me really bad names, had I said Sony would ever be #1 in FF ILCs in the US for any half year.
> 2. I think Sony will very likely also be #1 in FF ILCs for full year 2018.
> 3. If Nikon can deliver sufficient numbers of Z6/Z7 mirrorfree cameras to the US before end of 2018, I think they will be #2 for FF ILCs. ANd Canon #3.
> So well deserved, stupid errrm "innovative" Canon.


I wouldn't have called you bad names, but I wouldn't call myself a "Canon Defence Leaguer" either. It makes no difference to me who is in the lead - I'm happy with my equipment and use it regularly. In fact, I think it is possible that Sony holds that title all year depending on what happens in the next few months.

My comments here are entirely based on what we know right now and what recorded history has told us. Considering that the title for most FF sales over the last 12 months seems to have been attached to who releases more cameras, it would stand to reason that with Nikon releasing 2 full frame cameras at once in the near future they could certainly take the first overall in full frame depending on when these cameras to market. If they can get these things on store shelves, they should have a good opportunity to take the lead. That could, however, be complicated if Sony releases the a7Siii soon, then both companies would have fresh releases. 

Canon, on the other hand, doesn't appear to have any FF cameras in the pipeline for 2018, so I would suspect that they won't hold first for full frame in 2018. As soon as they release another full frame camera (2019 maybe?), I'd bet on them to re-take the lead. Again, this is a good sound byte for Sony, and it is certainly an achievement for them, but I don't think it is indicative of a monumental shift in the industry - at least not yet. It could certainly happen, but we need longer term data to be sure.

None of this, however, impacts my impression of my gear. I love my 5D IV and I can honesty say I wouldn't trade it for any camera on the market. It works for my needs, and I don't think I can blame my gear for any lost images at this point.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 23, 2018)

I don't expect Canon's 1st FF mirrorless to be any better than Nikon Zs. Period!!!


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## fullstop (Aug 23, 2018)

hehe, Canons inability to deliver mirrorfree FF system buys Sony another year of market leadership in FF ILC in the USA, probably also in Asia and maybe even in Europe. 

In Europe Sony's biggest problem is not product specs or perception, but lacking presence in sales channels [for FF ILCs] - they simply are under represented, both in online shops as well as in the remaining, hi-end brick&mortar stores. In Central Europe Sony tried sort of an Apple approach with mainly "flagship stores" in major cities, but it has not worked for them. Sony brand name does not have sufficient cachet any longer. 

CaNikon's luck, otherwise ... *******.


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## robotfist (Aug 23, 2018)

mpmark said:


> don't let the door hit you on the way out...



What door? Canon’s doors fell off the hinges a long time ago. I actually think they’re using tent flaps now.


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## litecc (Aug 23, 2018)

Hey Admin, any word on the upcoming cinema camera (presumably the c300 mkiii)? I've heard we won't get anything until after Photokina, but do you think it will be announced before the new year?


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## hmatthes (Aug 23, 2018)

mppix said:


> a 5D IV without mirror (but good EVF) could actually be a compelling product.


I wholeheartedly agree AND I want to remain a Canon person. I love CPS and the community.
I really want the mirrorless 5D-IV and hope that the announcement is both soon and not disappointing.
This might sound like blasphemy but I just placed an order for the Nikon Z-6 with 24~70 f/4, F adapter, two (expensive) XQD cards plus reader. 
24 mp is plenty and priced at $3,100 -- hard to beat. Delivery in November. 
If our mirrorless 5D-IV is announced and measures up, I will place a first day order -- no doubts at all. And cancel the Z-6 order.
Let's hope that I cancel the Nikon...!


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## herion (Aug 23, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> The prices of grey market goods in the US are not based on avoiding VAT.
> 
> The U.S. has no VAT nor any other form of national sales/consumption tax. All sales taxes are assessed at the state and local level and vary greatly, but it is rare for the rate to be greater than 10% anywhere. Some places they are much less. When ordering from an online seller that does not have a physical presence in the state to which the item is being delivered, there is very often zero sales tax on the item at all.



Unfortunately, it's happening less and less often. New rules are in place that charges the buyer's state/local sales taxes even on internet sales...


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2018)

mppix said:


> (Disclaimer: I have no information who produces the Nikon MILC sensor or in-body stabilization but would be -very- surprised if it was Nikon)



I think most would believe this Z7 Nikon sensor is either the same one in the D850 or heavily based upon it. 45 MP x 9 fps in two different cameras screams out 'reused componentry', right?

- A


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> I wholeheartedly agree AND I want to remain a Canon person. I love CPS and the community.
> I really want the mirrorless 5D-IV and hope that the announcement is both soon and not disappointing.
> This might sound like blasphemy but I just placed an order for the Nikon Z-6 with 24~70 f/4, F adapter, two (expensive) XQD cards plus reader.
> 24 mp is plenty and priced at $3,100 -- hard to beat. Delivery in November.
> ...



Whoa. So all of these Z6 limitations are okay to you?

Single card
12 fps is only possible with compressed RAW and locked exposure. Only 9 fps with uncompressed RAW (and exposure may still be locked, we don't know).
(Z7 info, not confirmed on Z6 -->) -3EV AF sensitivity may only be possible with f/2 or faster lenses, i.e. possibly only with primes
Only -2 EV AF sensitivity unless in 'low light mode' and we don't know what / how that works, what glass can use that, etc.
330 shots per charge
IBIS is somewhat limited with the adaptor (wasn't sure if it was only 3 stops with adapted glass or only 3 axes of control)
I hope you like it, but we don't even have the manual yet to really see what we're getting. It would appear this camera feels a lot more like the A7 _*I and II*_ models with respect to fine print than the III models. Caveat emptor!

- A


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## blackcoffee17 (Aug 23, 2018)

That Nikon 500mm 5.6 PF looks amazing. The MTF chart is basically perfect and it weights as much as a 70-200 zoom. Plus it's shorter than Canon's pretty small 400mm 5.6. Truly amazing!


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> That Nikon 500mm 5.6 PF looks amazing. The MTF chart is basically perfect and it weights as much as a 70-200 zoom. Plus it's shorter than Canon's pretty small 400mm 5.6. Truly amazing!



The issue is not the size or MTF chart -- we have tiny DO lenses as well.

It's that they are selling a compact 500 prime for $3600. That's no joke.

- A


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## blackcoffee17 (Aug 23, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> The issue is not the size or MTF chart -- we have tiny DO lenses as well.
> 
> It's that they are selling a compact 500 prime for $3600. That's no joke.
> 
> - A



Exactly! I think that price is amazing. The Canon 400 DO is a magnificent lens but it weights significantly more and it's double the price of this 500mm.
It's funny how Canon started developing DO lenses and it was the first to launch one many years ago, yet it's Nikon who has more on the market and there is another one coming soon.


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Exactly! I think that price is amazing. The Canon 400 DO is a magnificent lens but it weights significantly more and it's double the price of this 500mm.
> It's funny how Canon started developing DO lenses and it was the first to launch one many years ago, yet it's Nikon who has more on the market and there is another one coming soon.



And a 200-500 f/5.6 IS impossibly being offered for $1400.

But I'll defer to the birders and wildlifers on this. It could be the 100-400L II and 400 DO II are simply a higher class of instrument than the Nikon counterparts.

- A


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## amorse (Aug 23, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> And a 200-500 f/5.6 IS impossibly being offered for $1400.
> 
> But I'll defer to the birders and wildlifers on this. It could be the 100-400L II and 400 DO II are simply a higher class of instrument than the Nikon counterparts.
> 
> - A


I'm no birder, but every time I compare the 200-500 vs the 100-400L IS II on the digital picture, it seems like the 100-400 L II is notably superior. I don't know if that translates to real world results, however.


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## blackcoffee17 (Aug 23, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> And a 200-500 f/5.6 IS impossibly being offered for $1400.
> 
> But I'll defer to the birders and wildlifers on this. It could be the 100-400L II and 400 DO II are simply a higher class of instrument than the Nikon counterparts.
> 
> - A



The 100-400 II is surely a higher grade lens than the 200-500. Better built, faster AF and amazing macro mode. 
The Nikon 500 PF looks like a high end Canon L grade lens tho.


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## ashmadux (Aug 24, 2018)

_"We’re told that Canon will not announce another DSLR in 2018. That means no EOS 90D, no EOS 7D Mark III and no replacement for either EOS 5DS series cameras is coming this year."_


Dear lord, Canon makes me soooo angry. This damn company takes too damn long to update it's products. The 7d2 is STILL on the market!?!??! *Just...abominable*. It' was already old news with a crap sensor AT LAUNCH.

I'll have to get a M50, becasue it was already marked for purchase anyways and it's needed. But god help me ill never buy a 5d4. Too old, too old tech. My trusty 5d3 has to keep deleivering (luv it tho  )


This leaves sony with yet more space for another upgrade/iteration before you even hear of a new canon camera.

I'm in disbelief that this is what canon has turned into.


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The 100-400 II is surely a higher grade lens than the 200-500. Better built, faster AF and amazing macro mode.
> The Nikon 500 PF looks like a high end Canon L grade lens tho.


The Canon is definitely the better lens, but on the other hand, the Nikon is $500 less, 100mm longer, and with 2.5X zoom is easier to design than the Canon at 4X zoom.... That said, either one is a fine lens and to go longer in the Canon or Nikon ecosystems, you are going to need at least 4X the cash..... They are both as long as you can go without risking divorce


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## MNMR (Aug 24, 2018)

I can imagine why canon is still not jumping in to mirorless seas. First they already have lens mount with perfect size. As well they have f1.0, f1.2 lenses. Even flange distance is not so bad comparing Dslrs. Maybe the sensor is not the best yet in terms of noise and low light. But yes, time changes so Canon should not silently sleep if they don't want lose their evaluation. Even if Nikon fails with first Z release, their next product can be a lot stronger, and it is danger. Don't forget Sony which leads the train.


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## HankMD (Aug 24, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> That Nikon 500mm 5.6 PF looks amazing. The MTF chart is basically perfect and it weights as much as a 70-200 zoom. Plus it's shorter than Canon's pretty small 400mm 5.6. Truly amazing!


I can see lots of birders, especially the more mobile type, going with a lighter, moderately long lens. Performance with extenders remains to be seen, though.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2018)

MNMR said:


> Even if Nikon fails with first Z release, their next product can be a lot stronger, and it is danger. Don't forget Sony which leads the train.


Or the Nikon Z could go the way of the Nikon 1. I doubt it, but time will tell. 

Meanwhile, which train is Sony leading? Well, they were leading the APS-C MILC train, but the EOS M line made Sony's engine jump the tracks.


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## Takingshots (Aug 24, 2018)

As always Canon wait to evaluate what competitors are offering. This time Nikon is offering Z6 for just under $2,000. Canon - say What? Again we do not know yet how good is Z6 or Z7....
It will be interesting to see if Canon can compete and OFFER better specs for the same pricing. OR if they still think their sales are untouchable or won't be affected?


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## amorse (Aug 24, 2018)

Takingshots said:


> As always Canon wait to evaluate what competitors are offering. This time Nikon is offering Z6 for just under $2,000. Canon - say What? Again we do not know yet how good is Z6 or Z7....
> It will be interesting to see if Canon can compete and OFFER better specs for the same pricing. OR if they still think their sales are untouchable or won't be affected?


I'm sure they are evaluating what competitors are offering, but I doubt they'll change course based on it for the next release. I would have to assume that nearly any course correction at this point would mean really pushing back any release date. I would bet their full frame mirrorless is 99% ready to go, and they are letting Nikon have all the hype for now. Why bother competing for the same attention when you can wait for the Z6/7 hype to die down (and let the reviewers take their toll) then make an announcement with everyone paying attention? For all we know, Canon may be waiting until Sony announces the a7Siii and then let the hype die down for that too. After that, it may be a little while before another full frame gets announced from Sony or Nikon (nearly all full frame lines from both companies would have recently been updated) so Canon could end up with the last word for while. Holding all of the attention may be more important to Canon than being first to market.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2018)

Takingshots said:


> It will be interesting to see if Canon can compete and OFFER better specs for the same pricing.


So in your mind, being competitive equates to offering a better spec list. You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion...even if history and market data disagre with you.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2018)

amorse said:


> Holding all of the attention may be more important to Canon than being first to market.


Winning in the market is likely most important to Canon. Remember how many people (well, forum people) complained that Canon was so late to the MILC market, how they would fail and were ******* because they had no MILC offerings? Five years later, they make the globally best-selling line of MILCs.


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## amorse (Aug 24, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Winning in the market is likely most important to Canon. Remember how many people (well, forum people) complained that Canon was so late to the MILC market, how they would fail and were ******* because they had no MILC offerings? Five years later, they make the globally best-selling line of MILCs.


Absolutely winning the market is the priority - what I was trying to say was Canon may believe that they are better positioned to do that by holding all the attention rather than being first to market.

With respect to being the best-selling line of MILCs - I had thought Canon's M50 took top sales position in only Japan - I wasn't aware that it was world wide? Regardless, people criticize Canon like crazy for not being able to innovate, but then Canon CEO Fujio Mitarai says "we're going on the offensive in mirrorless" and Canon takes the crown less than 12 months later. That says quite a lot about Canon's perception of and ability to meet the demands of of the market. Obviously Fujio didn't come to that realization in the meeting where he was quoted - they've been heading toward that end-game for a while now.


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## MNMR (Aug 24, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Or the Nikon Z could go the way of the Nikon 1. I doubt it, but time will tell.
> 
> Meanwhile, which train is Sony leading? Well, they were leading the APS-C MILC train, but the EOS M line made Sony's engine jump the tracks.


I agree with your opinion too.


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## scyrene (Aug 24, 2018)

UserM4 said:


> I'm not in the market so it's easy for me to say but I would rather see Canon bring out a no compromise camera later than a place holder now.



Newsflash: there is no such thing as a no-compromise camera. Or a no-compromise anything, actually. EVERY product is the result of numerous compromises.


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## amorse (Aug 24, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Newsflash: there is no such thing as a no-compromise camera. Or a no-compromise anything, actually. EVERY product is the result of numerous compromises.


Absolutely agreed. This camera will compromise on plenty of things and there will be people who are very frustrated and others who are very satisfied. I don't think it is possible for Canon to build one camera that this forum would be unanimously in favour of because many of the desires are mutually exclusive or contrary. People are going to freak out no matter what Canon releases.


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2018)

amorse said:


> Absolutely winning the market is the priority - what I was trying to say was Canon may believe that they are better positioned to do that by holding all the attention rather than being first to market.
> 
> With respect to being the best-selling line of MILCs - I had thought Canon's M50 took top sales position in only Japan - I wasn't aware that it was world wide? Regardless, people criticize Canon like crazy for not being able to innovate, but then Canon CEO Fujio Mitarai says "we're going on the offensive in mirrorless" and Canon takes the crown less than 12 months later. That says quite a lot about Canon's perception of and ability to meet the demands of of the market. Obviously Fujio didn't come to that realization in the meeting where he was quoted - they've been heading toward that end-game for a while now.


It is a very good bet that Canon has known for quite a while what the competition is coming out with, and an equally good bet that they are at least 4 years into the developement of their mirrorless FF camera. I rather doubt that they are jiggling time lines because of the competition..... if their camera is better, they want it out now to dissuade people from going elsewhere, if it is worse, the want it out now because of the embarrassment of releasing an inferior camera after the competition releases a better one.

Odds are, they are either finalizing the software and getting the last bugs out before the big announcement, at which point production starts, or production has already started and the announcement is imminent


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## transpo1 (Aug 24, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Oh, agreed. But the point remains – Canon, no new FF, Nikon, one unavailable new FF, Sony 2 new FF. Easy to claim victory when no other teams show up at the match. Educated forum members see that for the hollow (local and likely transient) victory that it is.



Yeah, but educated forum dwellers also know that Canon would not be making any FF MILC moves at all if it weren’t for Sony’s success


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 24, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Yeah, but educated forum dwellers also know that Canon would not be making any FF MILC moves at all if it weren’t for Sony’s success


Not necessarily. For a company that makes both APS-C and FF DSLR's, and more recently launched what has become a very popular and profitable line of APS -C MILCs, a FF MILC is a very logical evolution. Sony's success in that market subsegment may have caused Canon to accelerate their timeline, but I highly doubt that Sony's recent success is the reason Canon started working on developing a FF MILC. Nor was Sony the main driver for the EOS M, since prior to that time both Olympus and Panasonic had more of the MILC market than Sony.


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## Mikehit (Aug 24, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> It is a very good bet that Canon has known for quite a while what the competition is coming out with, and an equally good bet that they are at least 4 years into the developement of their mirrorless FF camera. I rather doubt that they are jiggling time lines because of the competition..... if their camera is better, they want it out now to dissuade people from going elsewhere, if it is worse, the want it out now because of the embarrassment of releasing an inferior camera after the competition releases a better one.
> 
> Odds are, they are either finalizing the software and getting the last bugs out before the big announcement, at which point production starts, or production has already started and the announcement is imminent



I recently came across one rumor from late 2015 saying that the release of Canon's MILC was delayed due to as-then unspecified technological issues. So maybe (just maybe) they had some hurdles to overcome and tested them out in the M5/6/50 cameras?


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## Michael Clark (Aug 24, 2018)

Dylan777 said:


> I don't expect Canon's 1st FF mirrorless to be any better than Nikon Zs. Period!!!



It really doesn't have to be. As long as it is just as good, or a mixed bag - better in some ways, not as good in others - those already invested in the Canon ecosystem of lenses and flashes will more likely go with the Canon product.


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## Don Haines (Aug 24, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> I recently came across one rumor from late 2015 saying that the release of Canon's MILC was delayed due to as-then unspecified technological issues. So maybe (just maybe) they had some hurdles to overcome and tested them out in the M5/6/50 cameras?



Yes....

DPAF is fairly mature now and beats the competition..... is it time for QPAF?

Just imagine the impact Canon would have on the industry if it released a QPAF camera with hybrid IBIS/OS stabilization!


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## Michael Clark (Aug 24, 2018)

herion said:


> Unfortunately, it's happening less and less often. New rules are in place that charges the buyer's state/local sales taxes even on internet sales...



True, but it is rarely more than 10% and it is a state/local tax, not a national VAT or consumption tax. Up to 10% sales tax does not explain a 15-20-25% difference in the price of gray market goods compared to authorized sellers of the same products in the U.S. That's what the comment to which I was replying suggested.


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## mppix (Aug 28, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> I wholeheartedly agree AND I want to remain a Canon person. I love CPS and the community.
> I really want the mirrorless 5D-IV and hope that the announcement is both soon and not disappointing.
> This might sound like blasphemy but I just placed an order for the Nikon Z-6 with 24~70 f/4, F adapter, two (expensive) XQD cards plus reader.
> 24 mp is plenty and priced at $3,100 -- hard to beat. Delivery in November.
> ...



The Nikon MILCs surely look attractive. I'd call for caution, tough - A couple of years from now, CaNikon are likely head-to-head independent how these first releases look like. Then, the Nikon MILCs are also nice products (as are Nikon DSLR). Tough one.


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