# Canon EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 18, 2014)

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<p>Below are some points sent to me by someone who says they have spoken to a person who has shot with the EOS 7D Mark II. Some of the points are a bit vague, but could bring about better information in the near future.</p>
<p>This is the first I’ve heard about a megapixel count being “quite high”, It has been expected the camera would be around 24mp.</p>
<p>Below is a direct quote of what we were told.</p>
<ul>
<li>Quite high MP count</li>
<li>Vastly improved AF performance</li>
<li>Greatly improved low light and ISO/noise performance</li>
<li>Potentially a different sensor and/or technology than expected</li>
<li>Good price point</li>
<li>Very close to ‘pro’ classification, but non-compete with flagship such as 1dx</li>
<li>Release by Fall season as expected</li>
<li>Canon holding back 7Dmk2 for a reason. I suspect 100-400 mk2 announcement, or some other coinciding situation.</li>
</ul>
<p><strong><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## timcz (Jun 18, 2014)

Ill just continue to believe nothing until I see a proper announcement. I do hope that a 100-400 v2 comes at the same time.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 18, 2014)

These two points seem antagonic:

_*Quite high MP count 
*Greatly improved low light and ISO / noise performance_

Unless we see miracles at this point: 

_*Potentially a different sensor and / or technology than expected_


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## tayassu (Jun 18, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name="googleone_share_1" style="position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;"><glusone size="tall" count="1" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=16725"></glusone></div><div style="float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;"><a href="https://twitter.com/share" class="twitter-share-button" data-count="vertical" data-url="http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=16725">Tweet</a></div>
> <p>Below are some points sent to me by someone who says they have spoken to a person who has shot with the EOS 7D Mark II. Some of the points are a bit vague, but could bring about better information in the near future.</p>
> <p>This is the first I’ve heard about a megapixel count being “quite high”, It has been expected the camera would be around 24mp.</p>
> <p>Below is a direct quote of what we were told.</p>
> ...



This sounds more like a list that is not realistic but makes all the wishes of 7D users come true... :
But if it should be correct, I would guess on:
-24 MP sensor, although I could imagine some kind of foveon technology...
-a new AF System (I don't think there was any case in which an APS-C camera adopted an AF System from a FF)
-maybe 1/2 to 1 stop max. improvement in high ISO 
-1999€/$
That would certainly be a dream camera for a lot of People, released together with the 100-400 II...

But I follow timcz in not believing anything until I see it with my own eyes...


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## lol (Jun 18, 2014)

Random speculation on my part: I wonder if a higher than expected MP count could be somehow related to some successor to the dual pixel AF system?


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## KarstenReis (Jun 18, 2014)

I would like to believe this, but at this point it seems more like a wishlist than anything else.
If someone were to design a 7D mkII in a vacuum I think this description would be what goes into the camera.



Canon Rumors said:


> Canon holding back 7Dmk2 for a reason. I suspect 100-400 mk2 announcement, or some other coinciding situation.



Is this Canon Rumors suspecting the 100-400 mkII announcement or is this the direct quote from the source?


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## alexzaidan (Jun 18, 2014)

I heard from someone who talked to photographers in the world cup that 7dmkII will come with: 

5dmkIII's autofocus 
10 fps 
20-24MP 
f8 autofocus 
1D's top plate 
Dual DIGIC 5 +


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## Chaitanya (Jun 18, 2014)

hmmm, it sounds like a wishlist of anyone who wants to see a replacement for 7d rather than a Canon camera that could light of day.


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## alexzaidan (Jun 18, 2014)

I also think it's too good to be true, but I trust the source


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## eric_ykchan (Jun 18, 2014)

We want a 7D mark 2, still waiting. We want a up to standard mirrorless camera, still waiting.


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## jebrady03 (Jun 18, 2014)

lol said:


> Random speculation on my part: I wonder if a higher than expected MP count could be somehow related to some successor to the dual pixel AF system?



That was the first thought I had as well. If I remember correctly (and it's more likely than not that I don't), I believe there were rumors of a 40mp sensor for the 70D which really just turned out to be a 20mp camera with split photodiodes.

I wonder if this is another DPAF sensor, or perhaps TPAF or QPAF or like someone else mentioned, a Foveon like sensor.


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## transpo1 (Jun 18, 2014)

4K video or not? I'm a filmmaker, so I know I'm in the minority here.

If it doesn't come with 4K H.264 or built-in RAW video, I won't even think of buying. Canon needs to step up their game for us video folks.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 18, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> These two points seem antagonic:
> 
> _*Quite high MP count
> *Greatly improved low light and ISO / noise performance_



Those are NOT opposed to each other! At the same final size, more pixels on the same size sensor will produce LESS noise at the same final level of detail, not more (this myth got started because of comparing at 1:1 rather than constant final size and detail level). The only exception is at very extreme ISOs up into the 6 digit range.


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## tayassu (Jun 18, 2014)

Jackson_Bill said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > ajfotofilmagem said:
> ...



;D ;D


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## CANONisOK (Jun 18, 2014)

Correction: This point seems contradictory:


Canon Rumors said:


> Quite high MP count
> Vastly improved AF performance
> Greatly improved low light and ISO/noise performance
> Potentially a different sensor and/or technology than expected
> ...


One of these kids is doing his own thing...


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## Orangutan (Jun 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> alexzaidan said:
> 
> 
> > I heard from someone who talked to photographers in the world cup that 7dmkII will come with:
> ...



Undoubtedly your usual source of information.


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## NancyP (Jun 18, 2014)

What is it with the "more megapixels"? This is a camera for action and wildlife photographers, not for landscape photographers. The landscape photographers already have a decent camera in the 6D, and might like something with a few more MP, to take advantage of the ever-increasing quality of lenses. The action/wildlife photographers want "more throughput (fps and buffer depth).

Someone at the camera club meeting last night pestered the local camera shop representative about the "7D2". Hey, everyone is in the dark, including the CR1 and CR2 sources.


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## TrabimanUK (Jun 18, 2014)

alexzaidan said:


> I spoke to someone who said that their brother's mother's cousin's ex-boyfriend's lover said that it would come in pink.



Pink? What's the point of that? At least white would lean towards arctic camouflage


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 18, 2014)

TrabimanUK said:


> alexzaidan said:
> 
> 
> > I spoke to someone who said that their brother's mother's cousin's ex-boyfriend's lover said that it would come in pink.
> ...



Pink would provide camouflage among the herd of unicorns where the 7DII is found.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jun 18, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > These two points seem antagonic:
> ...


I think those who want low noise at ISO100 should buy D800. The mythical 7D Mark ii is supposed to be a fast-action camera, which usually need to use ISO1600 at least. I'm sure the target audience of 7D Mark ii has more interest in ISO6400 with acceptable noise.


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## madmailman (Jun 18, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> TrabimanUK said:
> 
> 
> > alexzaidan said:
> ...



Now you are just being silly. The 7DII is a myth, whereas the unicorn is the national animal of Scotland.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 18, 2014)

NancyP said:


> What is it with the "more megapixels"? This is a camera for action and wildlife photographers, not for landscape photographers.



I would argue that wildlife and action photographers need it more than landscapers do. Wildlife and action often lead to focal-length-limited situations that result in heavy cropping. More pixels helps with that in a big way.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 18, 2014)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > ajfotofilmagem said:
> ...



Which, again, would be better with more pixels on the same sized sensor.


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## dstppy (Jun 18, 2014)

CANONisOK said:


> Correction: This point seems contradictory:
> 
> 
> Canon Rumors said:
> ...


You got it. 

1) if the above list is true, it's gonna cost
2) define 'good' --- I'm saying if this list is true, it's worth $2k . . . other people will want the price below that

Too wish-listy.


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## Don Haines (Jun 18, 2014)

TrabimanUK said:


> alexzaidan said:
> 
> 
> > I spoke to someone who said that their brother's mother's cousin's ex-boyfriend's lover said that it would come in pink.
> ...


If it is pink, then people are less likely to steal it......


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## jthomson (Jun 18, 2014)

madmailman said:


> Now you are just being silly. The 7DII is a myth, whereas the unicorn is the national animal of Scotland.



I thought the Haggis was the national animal of Scotland. ;D


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## unfocused (Jun 18, 2014)

> Canon holding back 7Dmk2 for a reason. I suspect 100-400 mk2 announcement, or some other coinciding situation.



Silly statement. 

Canon could have released a 100-400 II at any time over the past five years or so. Lens technology doesn't change that much and this lens design has probably been sitting around for quite some time, just waiting for the right time to put it into production. There is no reason Canon would need to "hold back" any camera body for a lens. 

And, what exactly does "holding back" mean? The implication is that the 7DII has been completed and ready to go for quite some time and Canon has allowed it to sit idle. Hardly a likely strategy for camera technology, which has a relatively short shelf life. Certainly all companies time their releases to obtain the maximum benefit, but that is a matter of weeks or months. To call it "holding back" reflects a gross misunderstanding of everything involved in a successful product launch.


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## sanj (Jun 18, 2014)

NancyP said:


> What is it with the "more megapixels"? This is a camera for action and wildlife photographers, not for landscape photographers. The landscape photographers already have a decent camera in the 6D, and might like something with a few more MP, to take advantage of the ever-increasing quality of lenses. The action/wildlife photographers want "more throughput (fps and buffer depth).
> 
> Someone at the camera club meeting last night pestered the local camera shop representative about the "7D2". Hey, everyone is in the dark, including the CR1 and CR2 sources.



Requirement of the marketing department. And people who want to crop excessively.


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## MintChocs (Jun 18, 2014)

Of course Canon are going to cripple this camera in some way! They can't have it eating into sales of their other cameras. Lol. I think an increase in megapixels with a small improvement in noise is probably likely to protect existing FF cameras until those FF have improved sensors. I think any new lens will be a new kit lens for it to cope with any increase in megapixels and video after all it's not just professionals who buy this camera but people with loads of spare cash.


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## Don Haines (Jun 18, 2014)

unfocused said:


> > Canon holding back 7Dmk2 for a reason. I suspect 100-400 mk2 announcement, or some other coinciding situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"holding back" could mean that production has started and they are waiting until they have sufficient stock produced and in place around the world for the release. Don't forget that it also takes time to get electronics certified in various countries and they cant ship until they can put that CSA, UL, or whatever certification on the units.


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## distant.star (Jun 18, 2014)

.
I know a guy who talked to a guy who said he heard...

She'll be coming round the mountain when she comes
She'll be coming round the mountain when she comes
Coming round the mountain, she'll be coming round the mountain,
Coming round the mountain when she comes
She'll be driving six white horses when she comes
She'll be driving six white horses when she comes
She'll be driving six white horses, she'll be driving six white horses,
Driving six white horses when she comes
And we'll all go out to meet her when she comes
Yes we'll all go out to meet her when she comes
We'll all go out to greet her, yes we will all go out to meet her,
We'll all go out to meet her when she comes
She'll be wearing red pajamas when she comes
She'll be wearing red pajamas when she comes
Wearing red pajamas, why is she wearing red pajamas,
Don’t know why but she'll be wearing red pajamas when she comes
She'll be coming round the mountain when she comes
She'll be coming round the mountain when she comes
Coming round the mountain, she'll be coming round the mountain,
Coming round the mountain when she comes
Coming round the mountain when she comes


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## kirispupis (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm just not buying that Canon is going to reveal its latest sensor technology on a crop camera. More likely I see this announced on a new 1DX or 5D3. I think the G1X II is a better model for the 7D2 and so specs like the following are the most likely.

16 MP
1-1.5 stops better than current 7D
new+improved AF system
WIFI + GPS
HDR similar to 5D3
A few other helpful doo-dads

This would hardly be an exciting camera, but I suspect it would sell decently well. Of course, I would love to be proven wrong. I am basing this off my perceived track record of Canon - that they replace very nice cameras (5D line) with newer very nice cameras and crappy ones (G1X, 7D) with similarly crappy ones.


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## Sanaraken (Jun 18, 2014)

If this is true. My money will be well spent on the 7DII and the 100-400 mk2. If the price is not to inflated on the lens.


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## stilscream (Jun 18, 2014)

Here's my guess:
9.3 fps (2 more than 70D, 3 less than 1DX)
28MP with equal or slight bump in high iso performance
Better weather sealing
4k video @24 fps, 120fps 1080 video slo-mo
$2100 starting price, falling to $1950 within 6 months.
dual digic 5 and digic 4 processor
cf and sd card slot, though sd card limits higher functionality
dual pixel AF version of the 1D4
Headphone jack
wifi and gps


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## Don Haines (Jun 18, 2014)

kirispupis said:


> I'm just not buying that Canon is going to reveal its latest sensor technology on a crop camera.



Like Digic 6? Like DPAF? Like WiFi and touchscreens?

Most new technology is introduced on the crop cameras and the p/s cameras because those are the units that are updated more often and that's where the big sales numbers are. If they waited until the next 1D? update cycle to introduce features and then let them trickle down they would be out of business


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## preppyak (Jun 18, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> "holding back" could mean that production has started and they are waiting until they have sufficient stock produced and in place around the world for the release. Don't forget that it also takes time to get electronics certified in various countries and they cant ship until they can put that CSA, UL, or whatever certification on the units.


Not to mention they've been known to have major production delays in the past year or two. It's entirely possible that the 100-400 was supposed to be done at the start of the year, but it got delayed or had issues, thus "holding back".

Seeing the features that are left off Canon cameras that are clearly there (as Magic lantern has unlocked) or that would have been simple to keep (AFMA for example), holding back could also be a marketing decision, as they want the lens and camera launched in combo for sales purposes


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## wyluncustoms (Jun 18, 2014)

*GOOD PRICING?  * 

is that the point of view of a Professional Photog. that has a 1Dx for sports... or is that good pricing for a regular consumer/hobbyist like me :-\


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## dadgummit (Jun 18, 2014)

Though I am not holding my breath it would be great if the specs listed are all true. I just hope the pro thing does not mean integrated grip.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 18, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > What is it with the "more megapixels"? This is a camera for action and wildlife photographers, not for landscape photographers.
> ...



For a given amount of energy (battery capacity) and processing capability, you can either have more pixels or a higher framerate, not both. The 1DX has a higher frame rate and lower resolution than the 5D. It'd be nice if the 7DII could match the framerate of the 1DX, but that would require the same amount of processing power (both 18MP). With the 5DIII at 6 FPS, the 7D II would have to be a bit faster for people to consider a 5DIII/7DII combo, like many people had done with the 5DII/7D.


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## alexanderferdinand (Jun 18, 2014)

IF there is a new Crop replacing the 7D, I hope Canon will show cojones.
Means: showing what is possible.
Example: double card slots- FAST ones!! Not the ancient interface for SD on the 5D3.
Or a fixed mirror, enabling a very fast framerate.
Or a lower MP sensor like the Fuji X Trans with very good high iso capabilities.

What do I expect: a new body, witch is constructed to fit in its place.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 18, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > NancyP said:
> ...



A higher frame rate doesn't require more energy for the same total number of shots, just more power. Now, if you're arguing that a higher frame rate leads to more shots, then maybe that's so, but 2,000 shots is still 2,000 shots.


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## bsbeamer (Jun 18, 2014)

transpo1 said:


> 4K video or not? I'm a filmmaker, so I know I'm in the minority here.
> 
> If it doesn't come with 4K H.264 or built-in RAW video, I won't even think of buying. Canon needs to step up their game for us video folks.



Came here to air my thoughts and agree with you 100%. The majority of people here seem to want LESS video features, but I really want to see MORE video features incorporated and the ones that are there already improved. 4K for this camera is almost a must for me to consider.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 18, 2014)

bsbeamer said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > 4K video or not? I'm a filmmaker, so I know I'm in the minority here.
> ...



I'm mostly into stills, but I need a camcorder and it turns out that there are exactly zero camcorders available with both a wide range zoom lens and an EVF at the same time. So, I was thinking of buying an SX50 (or the rumored SX60) to be my wide focal length camcorder with an EVF. However, if the 7D replacement has good video features (including a hybrid viewfinder), then I'd seriously consider using it instead of a compact hyperzoom.

4K isn't a necessity for this (for me), but it would be a nice bonus.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 18, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



Sure it does. You need more circuitry and processing power to sustain processing higher MP/sec. To sustain 12 FPS at 18 MP, you need 1Dx processing capability. More processing require larger/faster memory, processors, buses, etc. and that does take more power even when not used to to its capability. In any case, most sports users value FPS over MP. The 1DX was state of the art 2 years ago, and it uses a larger battery. D4S is 11 fps at 16.2 MP. The 5D3 already reaches 6 FPS, and if the 7DII is to improve on the 7D's 8 FPS, it'll have to get closer to 10 FPS, which is approaching the computing requirements to what the flagship cameras do, even if it remains at 18 FPS.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 18, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> Sure it does. You need more circuitry and processing power to sustain processing higher MP/sec. To sustain 12 FPS at 18 MP, you need 1Dx processing capability. More processing require larger/faster memory, processors, buses, etc. and that does take more power even when not used to to its capability.



You seem to be using the words "power" and "energy" interchangeably. Faster processing requires more power, all other things being equal, but not more energy.


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## Tugela (Jun 18, 2014)

bsbeamer said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > 4K video or not? I'm a filmmaker, so I know I'm in the minority here.
> ...



The majority of people here are not the majority of people who will actually buy this camera. Canon will cater to their customers, not people who belong to an enthusiast board.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 18, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > Sure it does. You need more circuitry and processing power to sustain processing higher MP/sec. To sustain 12 FPS at 18 MP, you need 1Dx processing capability. More processing require larger/faster memory, processors, buses, etc. and that does take more power even when not used to to its capability.
> ...



No, not interchageably. A Chevy Malibu is traveling on the highway (EPA profile) next to a Corvette. Both are going the same speed. The Corvette has lower drag and is slightly lighter, yet its highway efficiency is 29 mpg compared to the Malibu's 36 mpg. Larger components (engine, transmission, etc.) required for greater performance use more power on average and more energy over the same distance. For electronics, components spec'ed for higher performance also take more power even if they're doing the same work. They are capable of higher power consumption but will also consumer more over doing the same task at a slower rate as less capable components. Take a look at computer processors. The fastest use more power for incremental performance improvement, so the ratio of performance/(power or energy) decreases.


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Jun 18, 2014)

bsbeamer said:


> transpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > 4K video or not? I'm a filmmaker, so I know I'm in the minority here.
> ...



I make wedding films, and I'm hoping Canon delivers on the video features. My finger is twitching over the "buy it now" button for the GH4 and A7s, but I want to give Canon the opportunity to respond to those products. I don't necessarily need 4k, but I do want better DR and sharpness. The 5D with Magic Lantern is currently getting the job done, but the highlights are blown and and the detail mushy. Yes, Canon has already done it with the 1DC and C100/300, but Panasonic just did for $1,700, and Sony for $2,500. Come on Canon.


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## mine1 (Jun 18, 2014)

wyluncustoms said:


> *GOOD PRICING?  *
> 
> is that the point of view of a Professional Photog. that has a 1Dx for sports... or is that good pricing for a regular consumer/hobbyist like me :-\



Well don't forget that this camera will in no way be marketed towards a regular consumer like us. that is what the 70d and 6d are for. this will be for people that need more reach than their 1dx or more reach speed than their 5d3 gives them


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## Lee Jay (Jun 18, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Random Orbits said:
> ...



So far, so good. But using a thermodynamic analogy isn't a good idea.



> For electronics, components spec'ed for higher performance also take more power even if they're doing the same work.



In most cases, the opposite is actually true, due to thermal reasons and enabled by process technology. To have a faster device, it needs to be more efficient, not less, or it will get too hot. If it's less efficient AND doing more work, it will dissipate a lot more power, not just a little, making the thermal management more difficult.

One of the big reasons computers can get more powerful with each generation is that they consume less power per switching event. If this were not the case, we would have current generation CPUs demanding tens of kW, and burning up during POST.


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## Tugela (Jun 18, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Random Orbits said:
> ...



No you don't need a 1DX. To get 12 fps you need dual DIGIC 5+ processors, but a single DIGIC 6 can do 14 fps. That is the processor currently in point and shoot cameras. And there is almost certainly an upgraded version of DIGIC 6 in the works to provide the additional horsepower for the needs of video functions in cameras. Dual DIGIC 5+ is obsolete.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 18, 2014)

Tugela said:


> No you don't need a 1DX. To get 12 fps you need dual DIGIC 5+ processors, but a single DIGIC 6 can do 14 fps. That is the processor currently in point and shoot cameras. And there is almost certainly an upgraded version of DIGIC 6 in the works to provide the additional horsepower for the needs of video functions in cameras. Dual DIGIC 5+ is obsolete.



14 FPS at how many megapixels? DIGIC 6 is used in PowerShot G16, PowerShot N100, PowerShot S120, PowerShot SX280 HS and PowerShot SX270 HS, which are all about 12 MP. According to CanonUSA, the max sustained frame rate is closer to 9 FPS (without continuous AF)... not 14 FPS. What DIGIC 6 camera does 14 FPS at >= 18 MP?


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## Don Haines (Jun 18, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...


and don't forget variable clock speeds... when the load is low, reduce the clock speed and save energy....

and don't forget that in multi-core processors you can shut cores down when not needed, further saving energy...

you make a processor faster by shrinking the manufacturing process. Make the transistors smaller and they use less power. Make them smaller and the signals don't have as far to go and they can run faster.


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## Don Haines (Jun 18, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > No you don't need a 1DX. To get 12 fps you need dual DIGIC 5+ processors, but a single DIGIC 6 can do 14 fps. That is the processor currently in point and shoot cameras. And there is almost certainly an upgraded version of DIGIC 6 in the works to provide the additional horsepower for the needs of video functions in cameras. Dual DIGIC 5+ is obsolete.
> ...



Digic4 - can handle 5.3FPS at 18MP (60D)
Digic5 - 6 times faster than Digic4
Digic5+ - 17 times faster than Digic4
Dual Digic5+ - 34 times the computing power of Digic4
Digic6 - 20% faster than Dual Digic5+, or 41 times the computing power of Digic4

Somehow, I don't think a lack of computing power is slowing down frame rates


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## unfocused (Jun 18, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> "holding back" could mean that production has started and they are waiting until they have sufficient stock produced and in place around the world for the release. Don't forget that it also takes time to get electronics certified in various countries and they cant ship until they can put that CSA, UL, or whatever certification on the units.



I guess it's a matter of semantics. I consider "holding back" to mean you have something all ready to go and you are choosing not to release it when you could. I don't think of all the ordinary, if massive, steps needed to move a product into the release stage as holding back.

At any rate, my point was the a camera body is not going to be held back by a version II of a long-existing lens. Much more likely, that the release date of a lens, which has a far longer shelf life and much more stable development path than a camera, is going to be determined by the release date of a camera, rather than the reverse. 

All very minor points, but with forty-plus years of working in reporting and public information I get annoyed with throw-away editorial comments that have no basis in fact. 


sanj said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > What is it with the "more megapixels"?...
> ...



What's "excessively." 

Higher megapixels plays to the strengths of the 7D. Full frame will always outperform APS-C at higher ISOs and with the 6D, Canon offers an affordable full-frame sensor for that market. 

It's likely that the initial price of the 7DII will exceed the current street price of the 6D. So Canon has to target the product to audience demand.

Birders and wildlife shooters are a lucrative market that is not all that price sensitive – being comprised largely of people whose buying decisions are based on wants, rather than needs. Although most aren't going to be buying $8,000 super telephotos no matter how much they might want to.

These customers are often distance-limited and that requires cropping because you cannot get closer to the subject for dozens of various reasons. I expect people who want a bargain-priced 5DIII or 1D-X with high ISO sensitivity and low megapixels will be disappointed in the 7DII. 

But for a great many people, pairing a 24mp or more 7DII with f8 focusing and a new 100-400 zoom plus 1.4 extender and then cropping it to 10mp will be their dream combination. Maybe you feel that's cropping "excessively" but absent the ability to sprout wings and fly alongside a Osprey fishing offshore, this is likely to be the only available option for many people.


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## dickgrafixstop (Jun 18, 2014)

The more you know about photography, the less equipment you need.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 19, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



Now compare options within the same generation, and your case doesn't hold water. DIGIC 5+ is used in the 70D, 5DIII, 6D and 1DX. Unless you're counting on the 7DII to sport a DIGIC 6+... Canon has a longer pro body cycle than Nikon. But what has the D4S done compared to the D4? Same MP, 1 more FPS... To get the 7D II to get the same framerate as the 1DX, which has dual DIGIC 5+ and a DIGIC 4, it'll need that same processing ability with a smaller battery. And to get more MP at that frame rate, you'll need even more processing power. So, unless Canon leap-frogs the competition in computational efficiency, I don't expect to see a large difference in Canon's processing abilities.

You're original post:


> I would argue that wildlife and action photographers need it more than landscapers do. Wildlife and action often lead to focal-length-limited situations that result in heavy cropping. More pixels helps with that in a big way.



Wildlife/action applications have favored higher FPS to MP (1DX vs. 5DIII, D4 vs. D800). Nothing that you have posted has suggested that there isn't a trade between MP and frame rate, and most wildlife/action users favor higher FPS to MP.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 19, 2014)

dickgrafixstop said:


> The more you know about photography, the less equipment you need.



It depends more on what you shoot. My TS-E 24L II is great for architecture, my 600/4L IS II is great for birds. Is knowing more about photography going to help me use a wide TS for birds or a supertele for buildings? :

Sure...great images can be made with a beat up film camera and a 50mm lens. But not necessarily of _my_ chosen subjects.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 19, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > Tugela said:
> ...



Tugela's post implied that 1 DIGIC 6 can outdo the processing of a 1 DX (Dual DIGIC 5+). Do you disagree?


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## Don Haines (Jun 19, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Random Orbits said:
> ...


The DIGIC6 is supposed to have 20 percent more computing power than the dual DIGIC5+, so yes I agree that it is more powerful... but computing power and I/O bandwidth are two different things. I am sure that there are many instances where the extra pins of two chips are better than the faster pins of a single chip.

Computing-wise, if a 60D can handle 5.3fps at 18M, then a single DIGIC6 should be able to handle 100fps at 36Mpixels.... but there is no way the I/O of the DIGIC6 will support that so the comparison is meaningless.

about the only safe statement is that if they use dual DIGIC6 it will be faster than dual DIGIC5+.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 19, 2014)

unfocused said:


> I guess it's a matter of semantics. I consider "holding back" to mean you have something all ready to go and you are choosing not to release it when you could. I don't think of all the ordinary, if massive, steps needed to move a product into the release stage as holding back.
> 
> At any rate, my point was the a camera body is not going to be held back by a version II of a long-existing lens. Much more likely, that the release date of a lens, which has a far longer shelf life and much more stable development path than a camera, is going to be determined by the release date of a camera, rather than the reverse.



I think most companies do not hold back because it's unprofitable. Why would you delay the release of something that will get you more profit? 100-400L II rumors have been around for years. Has it been held back all this time waiting for a 7DII or is it more likely that worthy successor to the 100-400L had yet to be developed?

I remember when the 5DIII/D800 came out, and Chuck Westfall stated that Canon had high MP technologies and implied that Canon could respond quickly if the market demanded more MP. Well, it's been 2 years and still nothing. Maybe the response will come this year, but it won't be cheap and it won't be across the Canon product line (70D didn't have it, 7D won't have it [according to rumors]). People that work in PR or deal with media are there to tell the outside world what the company wants them to hear. It's in Canon's interest that we think Canon can respond to the threats of other companies (so that people don't switch away from the Canon ecosystem), but they don't tell you when.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 19, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> The DIGIC6 is supposed to have 20 percent more computing power than the dual DIGIC5+, so yes I agree that it is more powerful... but computing power and I/O bandwidth are two different things. I am sure that there are many instances where the extra pins of two chips are better than the faster pins of a single chip.
> 
> Computing-wise, if a 60D can handle 5.3fps at 18M, then a single DIGIC6 should be able to handle 100fps at 36Mpixels.... but there is no way the I/O of the DIGIC6 will support that so the comparison is meaningless.
> 
> about the only safe statement is that if they use dual DIGIC6 it will be faster than dual DIGIC5+.



Agreed.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 19, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> I remember when the 5DIII/D800 came out, and Chuck Westfall stated that Canon had high MP technologies and implied that Canon could respond quickly if the market demanded more MP. Well, it's been 2 years and still nothing.



The 5DIII has outsold the D800/E. Maybe it has 'been 2 years and still nothing' because the market HAS NOT demanded more MP.


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## Tugela (Jun 19, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > Random Orbits said:
> ...



If you are shooting regular pictures is doesn't matter what processor you use since there isn't much processor overhead.

The main use of an upgraded processor will be for (A) computationally intensive operations, such as tracking and image modification; and (B) for perfoming video processing/encoding.

The hardware encoders in the DIGIC 5 series were limited to 1080p30 at 24mbps. In DIGIC 6 that was increased to 1080p60. The DIGIC DV4 used in camcorders can additionally encode at 35 mbps through hardware. Older still cameras could generate MOV and other format files at higher bit rates, but those were prepared through firmware. If any new camera was to do better than that (such as shoot in 4K, or use hardware encoding at higher bit rates), there pretty much has to be a new processor, and it is fairly safe to say that such a processor would be significantly faster than the older ones in general processing as well. They are not going to go to all the trouble of making a processor with a new encoder and leave it with old logic and fabrication tech. They would update everything else as well.


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## Dylan777 (Jun 19, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> TrabimanUK said:
> 
> 
> > alexzaidan said:
> ...



You haven't seen my wife RX1 case yet


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## dslrdummy (Jun 19, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> TrabimanUK said:
> 
> 
> > alexzaidan said:
> ...


Or flamingos?


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## dslrdummy (Jun 19, 2014)

Presumably the rumour is meant to be "announcement" in the Fall not 'release'.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 19, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > I remember when the 5DIII/D800 came out, and Chuck Westfall stated that Canon had high MP technologies and implied that Canon could respond quickly if the market demanded more MP. Well, it's been 2 years and still nothing.
> ...



I don't disagree that Canon's strategy was wrong with the 5DIII vs. D800/E, but then why is Canon developing a high MP body now if it doesn't think it is profitable? Unless the high MP rumor is smoke in the wind and there won't be a 35MP+ Canon body at all. I take exception to what Westfall implied that Canon could respond "quickly." At 2 years and counting, it's getting close to a full product cycle.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 19, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Random Orbits said:
> ...



You don't disagree that Canon's strategy was wrong? That double negative means you think Canon's strategy _was_ wrong. Given that the 5DIII has sold better than the D800/E, please explain the flaws in Canon's strategy...

Canon is developing a high MP body? They produced a 120 MP APS-H sensor, clearly they have the capability. But if your 'evidence' for an imminent high MP body is rumor posts, we'd have seen a new 100-400L over five years ago. 

I think you miss the point. Westfall said Canon _could_ respond quickly _*if* the market demanded it_. The fact that the 22 MP 5DIII has outsold the 36 MP D800/E and a7R supports the idea that the market has *not* demanded high MP...therefore, Canon sees no need to respond, quickly or otherwise. 

Please note that 'the market' does not comprise a few complainers on Internet forums.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 19, 2014)

alexzaidan said:


> I heard from someone who talked to photographers in the world cup that 7dmkII will come with:
> 
> 5dmkIII's autofocus
> 10 fps
> ...



hmm does dual digic 5+ even have enough power for 24MP at 10fps? digic 6 is already out for many months
with all the talk about better video, I'd sooner bet digic SEVENs than digic 5+, i'm not sure but isn'd dual digic 5+ complete video read limited to about 18MP?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 19, 2014)

transpo1 said:


> 4K video or not? I'm a filmmaker, so I know I'm in the minority here.
> 
> If it doesn't come with 4K H.264 or built-in RAW video, I won't even think of buying. Canon needs to step up their game for us video folks.



Yeah and the 5D4 video better not be worse than 5D3+ML RAW! It needs 2k RAW (and not all mushed up, real, good raw, without NR and grain smushing and DR killing and so on) and 4k compressed (and again not overly DNR'ed mush where you get high contrast and sharp edges at say 3.5k res and areas of lower contrast but with detail all mushy and like 0.7k detail or something).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 19, 2014)

tayassu said:


> Jackson_Bill said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



Hah let us hope not, because he will go on about how normalization is not a valid way to compare and even if this camera does deliver better effective DR and SNR than the 7D, if it really has a ton of MP, he will insist at comparing with DxO Screen 100% views : and say the 7D2 stinks (even though the sensor might actually be awesome).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 19, 2014)

NancyP said:


> What is it with the "more megapixels"? This is a camera for action and wildlife photographers, not for landscape photographers. The landscape photographers already have a decent camera in the 6D, and might like something with a few more MP, to take advantage of the ever-increasing quality of lenses. The action/wildlife photographers want "more throughput (fps and buffer depth).
> 
> Someone at the camera club meeting last night pestered the local camera shop representative about the "7D2". Hey, everyone is in the dark, including the CR1 and CR2 sources.



Well it's wildlife guys who often love lots of MP since the get more reach.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 19, 2014)

unfocused said:


> > Canon holding back 7Dmk2 for a reason. I suspect 100-400 mk2 announcement, or some other coinciding situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe to make sure the D400 doesn't make it look silly? And if so, then delay it six more months to go with option #2 instead??


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 19, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > > Canon holding back 7Dmk2 for a reason. I suspect 100-400 mk2 announcement, or some other coinciding situation.
> ...



Or maybe to make sure it passes all the AF and usage tests at the World Cup, just to be safe so they don't have another 1D3/etc.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 19, 2014)

stilscream said:


> Here's my guess:
> 9.3 fps (2 more than 70D, 3 less than 1DX)
> 28MP with equal or slight bump in high iso performance
> Better weather sealing
> ...



not sure d5+ and d5+ and d4 can all fit in a 7D sized body
also even dual d5+ can't drive 28MP at 9.3fps
but other than the minor digic guesses, that sounds reasonable
(not sure what you mean by dual pixel AF version of the 1D4 though)


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 19, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Digic5+ - 17 times faster than Digic4
> Dual Digic5+ - 34 times the computing power of Digic4



are you sure they got dual digic to do full scaling? I know with past generations going dual seemed to only give 50-60% boost not 100%


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## Orangutan (Jun 19, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> but then why is Canon developing a high MP body now if it doesn't think it is profitable? Unless the high MP rumor is smoke in the wind


First, it's a rumor. Second, you may have misunderstood the rumor: it said "Quite high MP count." That's _quite_ ambiguous by my reading. That wording could simply mean it will be significantly higher than than 70D's MP count, say 24MP or 28MP. That's still not "quite high" relative to the entire market.

Also, as someone previously said, depending on how you think about dual-pixel tech (or possibly the next-gen multi-pixel tech) it could be perceived as extremely high MP count, even if the the resulting raw image is close to expectations.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 19, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> Now compare options within the same generation, and your case doesn't hold water. DIGIC 5+ is used in the 70D, 5DIII, 6D and 1DX. Unless you're counting on the 7DII to sport a DIGIC 6+...



I would, digic 5+ is OLLLLLDDDD, they will put a chip already YEARS old, into something that they might want to last another 3-4 years?? Heck I wouldn't be surprised a digic 7.



> Wildlife/action applications have favored higher FPS to MP (1DX vs. 5DIII, D4 vs. D800). Nothing that you have posted has suggested that there isn't a trade between MP and frame rate, and most wildlife/action users favor higher FPS to MP.



I don't believe that is the case at all for wildlife shooters, epecially not bird shooters. Maybe for sports, withing reason, though.


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## Don Haines (Jun 19, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Digic5+ - 17 times faster than Digic4
> ...


A lot depends on how the software is written and what the task is.... but there will always be overhead. My feel is that an 80 percent increase would be almost perfection.... but so much depends on the task and how parallel it can be made.

I wouldn't be surprised if the setup was dual chips, but of different types... one optimized for video and the other optimized for stills.


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## Don Haines (Jun 19, 2014)

Here's my guess:
10 fps
24MP with equal or slight bump in high iso performance
Better weather sealing
4k video @24 fps, 120fps 1080 video
$2300 starting price
Digic6 and a new video processor
Dual sd card slot
AF system like 1DX, but with fewer points
Headphone jack
wifi and gps
articulated touchscreen
wireless flash controller
Wide selection of colours (black). no pink.
still uses LP-E6 battery


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## Random Orbits (Jun 19, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> You don't disagree that Canon's strategy was wrong? That double negative means you think Canon's strategy _was_ wrong. Given that the 5DIII has sold better than the D800/E, please explain the flaws in Canon's strategy...
> 
> Canon is developing a high MP body? They produced a 120 MP APS-H sensor, clearly they have the capability. But if your 'evidence' for an imminent high MP body is rumor posts, we'd have seen a new 100-400L over five years ago.
> 
> ...



I don't think Canon's strategy was wrong at the time. Canon produced a 120 MP APS-H sensor, but at what price? I don't think they could have done it two years ago when the 5DIII came out at the D800 price. I don't think Canon could have produced the D800 two years ago at the D800 price period, which has nothing to do with whether or not the 5DIII was the right product for Canon to make.

I don't believe that Canon could have responded "quickly" if "quickly" meant a year. Now if "quickly" means 3-4 years, then yes it can respond "quickly." We'll have to see when/if a large MP body comes. If it arrives around 3-4 years after the D800, which is similar to Canon's pro product cycle length, then I would think Canon is reacting to the D800. If a high MP comes 5 or more years later (or never), then Canon decided that the high MP market was not worth its while.


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## traingineer (Jun 19, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> dickgrafixstop said:
> 
> 
> > The more you know about photography, the less equipment you need.
> ...



I thought that 600 was used for capturing images of the mystical unicorns you always talk about.


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## that1guyy (Jun 19, 2014)

stilscream said:


> Here's my guess:
> 9.3 fps (2 more than 70D, 3 less than 1DX)
> 28MP with equal or slight bump in high iso performance
> Better weather sealing
> ...



Sounds more like a wishlist than an actual guess of what Canon might do but I hope you're right. My wish list is pretty similar.


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## unfocused (Jun 19, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Here's my guess:
> 10 fps
> 24MP with equal or slight bump in high iso performance
> Better weather sealing
> ...



Very close to my earlier prediction



unfocused said:


> Note: this is not what a "wish list" but rather a prediction based on the market, competition and Canon's existing lineup:
> 
> 24 mp dual pixel APS-C sensor;
> Sensor performs marginally better than 70D sensor;
> ...



I think you are a little high on the price; I don't see an articulated screen, but I do expect a touchscreen; I think it will have both a CF and SD card slot; I wouldn't be surprised to see some new configuration on the flash that allows for greater weathersealing; but basically I think we are pretty close.


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## mkabi (Jun 19, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Here's my guess:
> 10 fps
> 24MP with equal or slight bump in high iso performance
> Better weather sealing
> ...



One can only wish... but I strongly doubt it. May be 1080/60p and quite possibly 2.5K , but definitely not 4K.
However, I am sure they may make another C version of the same camera, but expect the price to double.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 19, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> I don't think Canon's strategy was wrong at the time.



Oh, ok. When did it become wrong? When Nikon decided not to maintain two D800 models, both of which are outsold by the 5DIII, and instead are refreshing the line with a D800s, hoping that will prove more competitive? When Sony released a 12 MP version of the a7 because the 36 MP a7R was such a smashing success? 

Or maybe you're saying it hasn't become wrong yet, but will at some point in the future. If so, let me know who'll win the next Super Bowl, so I can place a bet on your 'sure thing'. :

Whatever.


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## unfocused (Jun 19, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > ...Given that the 5DIII has sold better than the D800/E, please explain the flaws in Canon's strategy...
> ...



Both Canon and Nikon responded to their customers. Nikon customers complained about Nikon's low resolution and Nikon overcompensated. 

Canon's 5DII customers complained about the weak autofocus and were convinced Canon would just keep piling on pixels at the expense of noise and high ISO performance. (Go back and read some of the forum posts before Canon released the 5DIII.

Canon overcompensated by putting in an incredible autofocus, keeping the resolution almost the same and improving ISO performance. 

Fortunately for Canon, their market research turned out to be more accurate than Nikon's. In fact, it was sufficiently accurate that they could charge a premium for the 5DIII over the D800 and still outsell Nikon by a wide margin.

I do think you will see a high megapixel body from Canon. It's just going to be in an APS-C format and called 7DII. (24mp scales out to more than 61mp in full frame). Why? Because a high megapixel 7DII plays to the format's strengths; it has a market; and it fits in with Canon's two-body strategy by nicely complementing Canon's full frame options.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 19, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Oh, ok. When did it become wrong? When Nikon decided not to maintain two D800 models, both of which are outsold by the 5DIII, and instead are refreshing the line with a D800s, hoping that will prove more competitive? When Sony released a 12 MP version of the a7 because the 36 MP a7R was such a smashing success?
> 
> Or maybe you're saying it hasn't become wrong yet, but will at some point in the future. If so, let me know who'll win the next Super Bowl, so I can place a bet on your 'sure thing'. :
> 
> Whatever.



Yeah, because market research is always right. : Because the EOS-M was such a hit in the US based on their original market analysis that the USA was part of part of M1's product launch. Because the SL1 "met" their expectations too. Whatever indeed.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 19, 2014)

What does this:



Random Orbits said:


> Yeah, Because the EOS-M was such a hit in the US based on their original market analysis that the USA was part of part of M1's product launch. Because the SL1 "met" their expectations too. Whatever indeed.



...have to do with your original assertion:



Random Orbits said:


> I don't disagree that Canon's strategy was wrong with the 5DIII vs. D800/E...



...to which I was responding?

Oh, I know – nothing. But you lost the original argument, won't acknowledge that you were wrong, and are instead moving the goalposts. 

Sorry, not going to play that game.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 19, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > I don't disagree that Canon's strategy was wrong with the 5DIII vs. D800/E...
> ...



That was an error on my part. What I meant to write was that I agreed with you that Canon probably did the right thing by making what the 5DIII what it is. However, we don't know for sure because the alternative was never produced. Who can say whether or not a Canon-like D800 would have sold as well. After all, Canon sells a lot more lower tier APS-C cameras than Nikon does even with some of the advantages that Nikon has (i.e. wider selection of crop lenses).

My original post on this topic was this:


> I think most companies do not hold back because it's unprofitable. Why would you delay the release of something that will get you more profit? 100-400L II rumors have been around for years. Has it been held back all this time waiting for a 7DII or is it more likely that worthy successor to the 100-400L had yet to be developed?
> 
> I remember when the 5DIII/D800 came out, and Chuck Westfall stated that Canon had high MP technologies and implied that Canon could respond quickly if the market demanded more MP. Well, it's been 2 years and still nothing. Maybe the response will come this year, but it won't be cheap and it won't be across the Canon product line (70D didn't have it, 7D won't have it [according to rumors]). People that work in PR or deal with media are there to tell the outside world what the company wants them to hear. It's in Canon's interest that we think Canon can respond to the threats of other companies (so that people don't switch away from the Canon ecosystem), but they don't tell you when.



My main two points were

1. I don't think Canon holds back ready-to-produce products because it is less profitable in the long run.

2. I don't think Canon could have responded to a high MP challenge as quickly as people thought. Perhaps people thought Canon could have responded in a year; I think it's closer to a full product cycle (as clarified in my latter posts).


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## pj1974 (Jun 19, 2014)

This is my prediction (which I have written before - and close to what Don has suggested in this thread)

24MP sensor
improved ISO performance at both low & hi ISOs (eg lower noise, less banding)
10 fps, with 2 options for lower fps
AF system similar to 5DmkIII (good frame coverage, extra sensitive, mostly cross type AF sensors)
DPAF (slight improvement on 70D)
Dual Digic6 processors
1xCF slot + 1xSD card slot
4k video, at least 60fps 1080 video, with headphone jack and more customisation
Touchscreen (I hope, but doubt - it will be articulated) 
wireless flash controller (probably radio)
WIFI and GPS
Similar black body / same weather sealing - including integrated pop-up flash
LP-E6 battery (optional portrait grip to house 2x batteries)
$2200 RRP


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## flyingSquirrel (Jun 19, 2014)

As others have said, the 'quite high mp' is not only vague, but is relative to other things. e.g. a MP rating could be 'quite high' for an aps-c sensor, but that same count would not be quite high for a full frame sensor. Thus, perhaps if the 7D2 were an aps-c with 24 MP, I would consider that quite high, for such a sensor size.

What is this craziness about a 120mp aps-h sensor that canon made?!! That is insane. I recently had an unsubstantiated and highly ridiculous thought, which was: What if canon brought back the aps-h 1.3x sensor for the 7D2, but with more MP? Or what if they did a new crop sensor that is just a little larger than the aps-c, to get better IQ with more MP? This is all just ramblings of an individual who obviously knows nothing about the technology..but it's fun to speculate anyway


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## Alino (Jun 19, 2014)

We will not see 7D2 to the world Cup anymore, the tester was spanish! ;D 8)


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## Don Haines (Jun 19, 2014)

Alino said:


> We will not see 7D2 to the world Cup anymore, the tester was spanish! ;D 8)


Could be worse.... Might have been Canadian and never qualified to go.....


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 19, 2014)

Alino said:


> We will not see 7D2 to the world Cup anymore, the tester was spanish! ;D 8)



oh man
and to think the very first team dumped is the one I said would win it all ;D
I guess I should've kept up with what has been going on with the team the last year and a half first hah.


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## hajiaru (Jun 19, 2014)

Canon still making cameras like it is 2008 ;D


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## privatebydesign (Jun 19, 2014)

hajiaru said:


> Canon still making cameras like it is 2008 ;D



And images have moved on in leaps and bounds since 2008?


----------

