# Canon EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM on the Way [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 19, 2016)

```
<p>It looks like we’re going to get a new 85mm lens from Canon. We’ve been trying to nail down exactly what the lens would be, and we finally have.</p>
<p>The Canon EF 85mm f/1.4L IS USM will be announced in 2017, though we’re still trying to nail down an estimated announcement timeframe.</p>
<p>We don’t know if the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS will be a replacement for the EF 85mm f/1.2L II or an addition to the lineup.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## mb66energy (Nov 20, 2016)

Hopefully it
(1) isn*t above 1kg
(2) doesn*t cost above 1200 EUR
(3) doesn't have a 86mm filter thread
(4) doesn*t have a meager max reproduction ratio of 1:8

Still waiting for sth. similar in the 50mm region!


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## Act444 (Nov 20, 2016)

If true, this would be the fastest IS lens they've put out.

Sigh, if only it were 50mm...


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## James Larsen (Nov 20, 2016)

That would be incredible! Man, as long as its not priced incredibly high, I'll definitely be looking into getting one of these...
Wow I'm really excited!!! ;D


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## YuengLinger (Nov 20, 2016)

A very close MFD would be wonderful too! Wow. IS! Hmm...


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## cellomaster27 (Nov 20, 2016)

Now THIS is exciting!!! 85mm (best focal distance ever for portraits - the 135mm), F1.4 (good enough for me), and with IS! With currently used systems for improved focus motor and build quality and improved optics, it'll smash the third party lenses! Hopefully it'll have weathersealing!


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## mitchel2002 (Nov 20, 2016)

cellomaster27 said:


> Now THIS is exciting!!! 85mm (best focal distance ever for portraits - the 135mm), F1.4 (good enough for me), and with IS! With currently used systems for improved focus motor and build quality and improved optics, it'll smash the third party lenses! Hopefully it'll have weathersealing!


me 2
very exciting


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## DrToast (Nov 20, 2016)

Very interesting. I was just pricing the 85mm f/1.2 the other day. Now I'll have to wait and see how this one looks.


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## Camerajah (Nov 20, 2016)

So when will the 50mm f1.4L be out


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## Ozarker (Nov 20, 2016)

Might just be in my Christmas stocking next year! This focal length is on my short list along with 35mm prime.


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## hendrik-sg (Nov 20, 2016)

this is great news,

let's hope it will compare to the Sigma optically, have best possible AF and IS on top, great

Regarding the price of the 35mm 1.4, it will not come for free


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## jebrady03 (Nov 20, 2016)




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## Mac Duderson (Nov 20, 2016)

YES! And then 28mm 1.4 IS Please! ;D


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## Joe M (Nov 20, 2016)

Well, it's about time. I think I could live with f1.4. I sure would love a little more sharpness and faster focus though. I don't expect a cheaper lens though because once you stuff image stabilization into it along with maybe some BR glass, that ought to be worth something, literally. I never owned the current lens and have a good friend who lets me borrow his. Yeah, nice guy to do that eh? Of course I love the lens but if it could be a little sharper, faster and stabilized. Here's hoping this new one comes out soon and is as good as I would like. My friend will not have to sweat when I take his lens for a day anymore.


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## hmatthes (Nov 20, 2016)

I've rented the 85/1.2 and loved it -- but the focus needed steady deliberation or a steady hand & manual focus. But the results were worth it. I shoot the wonderful 85/1.8 nearly everyday and it is my goto for portrait work.
I am excited for a 85/1.4 for even better control of critical focus than the 1.2 but better results than the 1.8 (already super).
I'll order one upon announcement unless they get greedy. The 85/1.8 is still THAT GOOD and the results are perfect. Hard to explain spending large sums of money to get one stop improvement unless it's corner-to-corner is perfection!


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## wtlloyd (Nov 20, 2016)

Awesome. These specs really hit the sweet spot. Hopefully below $2K on introduction.


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## Etienne (Nov 20, 2016)

Well that's some good news!
It's very likely to be awesome.
Price is the big question now.


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## H. Jones (Nov 20, 2016)

If there really is a 85mm f/1.4L IS I see no reason why we won't have a 50mm f/1.4L IS as well. 

Sounds like an incredible lens either way! Bring it on.


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## Etienne (Nov 20, 2016)

H. Jones said:


> If there really is a 85mm f/1.4L IS I see no reason why we won't have a 50mm f/1.4L IS as well.
> 
> Sounds like an incredible lens either way! Bring it on.



I agree ... I'm far more interested in a 50mm f/1.4 IS than an 85, 
but this bodes well for a future 50!


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## H. Jones (Nov 20, 2016)

I think the best prime combo for me would be this lens and a 35mm f/1.4L II. I'm more of a zoom guy but I could see myself really using these two.


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## mclaren777 (Nov 20, 2016)

Crap, I ordered the new Sigma 85mm Art yesterday.

I'm probably going to cancel my order and wait for this one.


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## infared (Nov 20, 2016)

I love my 85mm f/1.2L lens...I know it suffers from CA, is slow to focus, etc. but it is just such a unique lens that I doubt that I will want to replace it....
Plus I love to look at how Canon attached the electrical contacts right to the glass to enable such a bokeh monster to function on the camera. ...It's pretty cool! ;D


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## Maiaibing (Nov 20, 2016)

mclaren777 said:


> Crap, I ordered the new Sigma 85mm Art yesterday.
> 
> I'm probably going to cancel my order and wait for this one.



Yup. Same situation here. IS alone will make it worth the wait. Sounds promising as a forerunner to both 50L and 135L updates.


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## Act444 (Nov 20, 2016)

Nevertheless, I'm using the 100 2.8 Macro IS which currently lives on my 5DSR and love that perspective for portrait shots. The IS is EXTREMELY helpful for hand-holding with the high resolution. This new 85, assuming it comes to fruition, could be a candidate as a lens to permanently attach to the 5DSR for portraits, freeing up the 100 once again. Although I really do like the 100mm perspective...but having two extra stops could be huge in certain situations.


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## NorbR (Nov 20, 2016)

Wow. 
A CR3 about a new 85mm? 1.4 *and* IS? Now that's a nice thing to wake up to on a Sunday morning ;D

Looking forward to more info on this one. As usual, price and weight are major question marks ... and personally I'm really hoping for the BR stuff to find its way into this lens. In fact, and I may be in the minority here, but I care about BR more than I care about IS for this one. Of course I won't complain if both are present 8)


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## mclaren777 (Nov 20, 2016)

Yeah, here's my thinking...


If I keep my order for the Sigma 85mm Art, it'll cost me just over $1300.
Then next year, I might be able to sell it for $1000, which would be a loss of $300.
If I decide to cancel and just rent the Sigma, I can only rent it three times before the new Canon 85mm comes out to save any money.

So the question is: will this lens come out in the spring or the fall?


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## Ryananthony (Nov 20, 2016)

mclaren777 said:


> Yeah, here's my thinking...
> 
> 
> If I keep my order for the Sigma 85mm Art, it'll cost me just over $1300.
> ...



I think you are better off purchasing the sigma and then selling it. First of all, we don't know when in 2017 the new Canon 85 will arrive. I personally would rather be shooting an 85 then waiting for one. Secondly, if the thought of renting it is an actual option for you, why limit yourself to maybe 3 weeks of 85 shooting for $300 when you could possibly shoot with it for almost a year before the Canon arrives. 

I have been fighting back and forth with possible retrying to Sigma 35 and purchasing the Sigma 85, or going with the tamrons. The more I put it off the more I start to lean to towards the Canon 35Lii and then now, the new 85LIS. It will cost me far more money, but I think the future proofing of Canon lenses, and the MTF charts to keep up with the ever growing MP counts will be worth it in the long run.


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## mclaren777 (Nov 20, 2016)

Ryananthony said:


> The more I put it off the more I start to lean to towards the Canon 35Lii



Without question, you should buy the 35mm II. I think it's the best lens Canon has ever made.


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## MaxFoto (Nov 20, 2016)

WTF Canon? The 200 1.8 goes to F/2, the 50 1.0 to 1.2. And now the same to the legendary 85 1.2L?? WTF???
Whats the point of having a large diameter lens mount if you're not gonna take advantage?


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## MrFotoFool (Nov 20, 2016)

It does seem odd they would go to f1.4, since the current f1.2 is a major selling point over the Sigma. I have the older (non art) Sigma and am very happy with it.


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## Antono Refa (Nov 20, 2016)

I bet a bunch of primes will be upgraded at once.

With Yongnuo copying the cheap primes (the 50mm f/1.4 & 85mm f/1.8 rumored, and 100mm f/2 announced), Canon has to take a step forward, a la the 24mm, 28mm, and 35mm.

The competitors are in with good 50mm & 85mm lenses. As I said before, as the competitors excel in sharpness, rather than bokeh, I think it might be possible Canon will release new lenses that excel in sharpness and continue making the current f/1.2 models.


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## 9VIII (Nov 20, 2016)

This is Canon telling people they don't need IBIS.

I hate to say it, but we probably have Sony to thank for spurring Canon on to develop something like this.

IS has been around for decades and never used on a lens faster than f2.8 other than the 35mm f2 IS from 2012 (or the Supertelephoto 200f2IS).
Is this really the first time anyone has thought that f1.4 with IS would be useful?
Highly doubtful, but I'm guessing Canon either worked overtime to make it happen or is just more willing to make the necessary compromises because the competition for this product is on the market right now.

Of course one might wonder if people won't just use this with IBIS as well, but I guess the question becomes "how long of an exposure is really useful".


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## Berowne (Nov 20, 2016)

Dont believe it until I see it. And if it comes, then the Price will be beyond the 35LII. Anyway nothing for me, perfectly satisfied with the 85/1.8.


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## Larsskv (Nov 20, 2016)

infared said:


> I love my 85mm f/1.2L lens...I know it suffers from CA, is slow to focus, etc. but it is just such a unique lens that I doubt that I will want to replace it....
> Plus I love to look at how Canon attached the electrical contacts right to the glass to enable such a bokeh monster to function on the camera. ...It's pretty cool! ;D



+1. I agree with you. From what I have seen from never 85mm lenses, they lack something essential when compared to the 85L II. They might be a little sharper wide open, but they don't produce the better image. 

I guess I will try this new 85L, but I will keep the old one if the new lens has a different overall rendering.


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## Chris Jankowski (Nov 20, 2016)

MaxFoto said:


> WTF Canon? The 200 1.8 goes to F/2, the 50 1.0 to 1.2. And now the same to the legendary 85 1.2L?? WTF???
> Whats the point of having a large diameter lens mount if you're not gonna take advantage?


Large diameter lens mount has little to do with it. 
The lenses you mentioned: 50/1.0, 200/1.8 and 85/1.2 all come from the film days. Film, being generally limited to 400 ISO, required super bright lenses to allow one to photogrph in limited natural light.
These lenses represented the effort to make them bright at nearly any cost. This is why they are so heavy, unwieldy, with atrotious AF speed, horribly soft out of centre, and huge amount of distrtions. Also extremely expensive.
With digital cameras that produce high quality low noise images at 3200 ISO, it simply makes no sense to design these monsters.


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## pokerz (Nov 20, 2016)

Nice upgrade for 85mm
Someone said IS costs hundreds for Canon, so 2000 USD for 85.4 IS and 2800 for 85.2 IS are reasonable


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## Maiaibing (Nov 20, 2016)

The only "worry" I have is that Canon is planning a "discount" 85mm IS-model like 35mm f/2 IS and will still have the f/1.2 as their high end offering. 50mm f/1.4 is sitting there already, so this could turns out not to be an "L" lens but to be a replacement for the 85mm f/1.8 instead.

Give me the quality of 35mm L II and I could not care less about the last half stop (not 100% true, but close enough).


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## ntt2007 (Nov 20, 2016)

I would be very sad if canon discontinued the 85 1.2 lens, many others out there will feel the same. Hopefully they will not do that. IMO, making an 85 1.2 IS will be heavy and costly, maybe hard to build as well, so they split into two new lens:
- 85 1.2 III to be the new king in portrait photography with better focusing and optic improvement. F1.2 AF lens is something many other lens maker are dreaming of, why would Canon quit it. No way!
- 85 1.4 IS to compete head on with sigma Art and other third party guys in term of optical quality and beat them with IS as there is no 85mm 1.4 lens with IS.

However, this is just my dream, because it is costly to produce and maintain two high quality 85mm lens at the same time.( Sorry for my bad English.)


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## David (Nov 20, 2016)

As far as I read on the WWW a f1.4 lens with image stabilization is technically not possible due to too large maximum aperture.


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## Haydn1971 (Nov 20, 2016)

The real news here is the IS at f1.4 ! I'd imagine this to be in additional to the f1.2, which will be retained. This will hopefully open the prospect of a 50mm f1.4 IS and hopefully for my price range a cheaper slower IS 50mm and 85mm lens in the form of the 35mm f2 IS


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## wockawocka (Nov 20, 2016)

Interesting if true, I'd prefer to of seen a 1.8 IS and a mkiii 1.2 with a rear focusing unit. The size and weight at a biggie for me.


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## PureClassA (Nov 20, 2016)

I haven't read back through everything but I LOVE THIS!!

Canon now has a 50MP 5DSR and a 30MP 5D4 and they will only get greater pixel density as time goes on.

Canon recognizes that we can't ALWAYS be shooting with tripods, which are otherwise necessary to take full advantage of 50MP. At the sacrifice of a half stop, we get IS on Canon's most popular (I think...) portrait prime. For guys like me who shoot the 5DSR, that's huge. I mostly shoot the 135L because I love the look and 85L 1.2 is about the same DOF when factoring focal length differences. But it's not always practical to shoot tripod mounted, nor can one always ensure being able to use much higher than normal shutter speeds to compensate short of dialing the ISO higher and higher which you prefer NOT to do when shooting for portrait.

If they can produce this lens with a a bit shorter minimum focusing distance, this will be a total homerun beyond belief. Between this rumor and possible new 135L and still waiting for a new 50L .... oh man, Canon is getting some money from me again next year and 2018. I JUST bought the new 35L II after spending 10 days with it from CPS.


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## pixel8foto (Nov 20, 2016)

Chris Jankowski said:


> MaxFoto said:
> 
> 
> > WTF Canon? The 200 1.8 goes to F/2, the 50 1.0 to 1.2. And now the same to the legendary 85 1.2L?? WTF???
> ...



+1

Also the resolution of today's sensors reveals the limitations of those older designs and pushes the market for lenses which will resolve >35/50Mpix at 35mm.


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## Antono Refa (Nov 20, 2016)

Chris Jankowski said:


> MaxFoto said:
> 
> 
> > WTF Canon? The 200 1.8 goes to F/2, the 50 1.0 to 1.2. And now the same to the legendary 85 1.2L?? WTF???
> ...



IIRC, 1600 ASA film was common back in the day, though I was told it couldn't be enlarged as much.


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## Viggo (Nov 20, 2016)

Wow, I'm thinking this will be my next lens to buy. It will for sure follow the recipe for the 35 L II, and be completely epic. 8)


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## SPL (Nov 20, 2016)

Boooo, not f/1.2! (Hey that rhymes), no seriously, this looks to be an awesome lens!, with IS!


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## JRPhotos (Nov 20, 2016)

Why would the not go with 1.2? Is this not a replacement for that lens?


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## Ozarker (Nov 20, 2016)

I see a lot of people disappointed that this lens isn't going to be f/1.2.

What I'm wondering is this: 

1. Will the one stop matter at all since there will be IS?
2. Will the f/1.4 cause bokeh to not be as nice?

I honestly don't know. 

I don't think bokeh will suffer, but I don't know enough. Somebody here will know. The focal length is still nice for f/1.4.

I've dreamed of having the 85 f/1.2L. The only things that have kept me from it are the reputed slow focus and what looks like a very vulnerable rear element.

If the focus is much faster, the bokeh very nice, and the rear element not so exposed to damage I'm thinking this might really be a winner. Hope so anyway.


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## Viggo (Nov 20, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I see a lot of people disappointed that this lens isn't going to be f/1.2.
> 
> What I'm wondering is this:
> 
> ...



It's no where near a full stop slower. One stop slower than 1.2 is 1.8.

I see a difference that matters in the dof and therefor separation between the 200 f1.8 and the f2. However, the quality of the bokeh and eveything else is much better with the f2. Same goes for the 50 f1.0 vs f1.2. So I'm sure that will also be the case with the new 85.

Make no mistake, Canon knows that people love the 85 L because of bokeh despite other things not being that great. They will not release a new lens that doesn't do well with bokeh. The 35 L is much sharper and better than the mk1, yet it's equal or better bokeh.


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## drmikeinpdx (Nov 20, 2016)

Too late Canon! I bought the Tamron 85mm f/1.8 stabilized lens and it works great for me.

BTW, I'm keeping my old Canon 85mm f/1.8 to use on my Rebel class bodies when I don't need my pro gear. It works great in that role!


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## TeT (Nov 20, 2016)

hendrik-sg said:


> this is great news,
> 
> let's hope it will compare to the Sigma optically, have best possible AF and IS on top, great
> 
> Regarding the price of the 35mm 1.4, it will not come for free



Not cheap, should not have a problem v the sigma (see 35 1.4 L II)


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## TeT (Nov 20, 2016)

Canon is tough to figure out: IS on the 85 1.4, why no IS on the recent 35 L II?

Who knows what the 50 will have? Would YOU want to place that bet? Not me...


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## Viggo (Nov 20, 2016)

TeT said:


> Canon is tough to figure out: IS on the 85 1.4, why no IS on the recent 35 L II?
> 
> Who knows what the 50 will have? Would YOU want to place that bet? Not me...



My guess is that the 35 L II is already big and heavy and it's the same aperture as the old one with shorter mfd. if it had IS also it would be too big, heavy and expensive for the majority who would sacrifice IS for the things mentioned.

The 85 L is big and heavy, and a newer better corrected version would be even bigger. So they go down on aperture to include both much better IQ and implement IS without charging double for a giant lens.


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## Ozarker (Nov 20, 2016)

Viggo said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > I see a lot of people disappointed that this lens isn't going to be f/1.2.
> ...



I was wrong. Thanks!  Wouldn't one full stop slower than f/1.2 be f/2.8? I might not know what I am doing reading the scale. Nope, I'm wrong again. Thanks again! I see now how f/1.8 is correct. From wiki:


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## LSXPhotog (Nov 20, 2016)

The new Sigma 85mm f/1.4 Art is shipping (mine arrives Monday) and then Canon Rumors makes this post...great. LOL 

I'm looking forward to the Art lens, but if I have any issues with AF, the Canon may end up replacing it.


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## LordofTackle (Nov 20, 2016)

Viggo said:


> TeT said:
> 
> 
> > Canon is tough to figure out: IS on the 85 1.4, why no IS on the recent 35 L II?
> ...



Also, IS is less important on a WA lens (35 1.4) than on a telephoto lens (85 1.4).

I am probably going for the 85 1.2 II now anyway since I can get it for approx. 1200€. The new version, if and when it shows up, will be most likely twice that amount! plus, I really like the pictures the Mark II produces.


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## JRPhotos (Nov 20, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I see a lot of people disappointed that this lens isn't going to be f/1.2.
> 
> What I'm wondering is this:
> 
> ...



I haven't had a need for IS in the 85 1.2L; I don't know visually how much of a different 1.4 - 1.2 would be but for my cake smash sessions and these types of shots I like to shoot at 1.2.


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## infared (Nov 20, 2016)

Larsskv said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > I love my 85mm f/1.2L lens...I know it suffers from CA, is slow to focus, etc. but it is just such a unique lens that I doubt that I will want to replace it....
> ...



Oh..yes..I forgot the "II"..that is the lens that I own, too...
I agree with your outlook...It might be a case where it is worth owning one of the newer supersharp and fast-focusing f/1.4 (the Sigma or the Canon), and keep this f/1.2 because there is something so so special about it. It make magical images:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5787/22164166955_14c9af78a9_o_d.jpg


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## Etienne (Nov 20, 2016)

f/1.4, at 85mm, is more than enough for pretty much any use. In fact I think 1.8 is plenty. 
Personally I'm tired of seeing head shots where only the eyes are in focus. It's getting dreary.

Most studio portraits are shot between f/4 and f/8 ... the backdrop does plenty of subject isolation. 
Subject isolation by large aperture is more relevant in the field where you often cant use a tripod, and things move fast ... hence IS (no tripod), and large aperture (to isolate the subject). This new lens will be great for that. 
Whole body subject isolation is another good use of the f/1.4


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## Viggo (Nov 20, 2016)

Etienne said:


> f/1.4, at 85mm, is more than enough for pretty much any use. In fact I think 1.8 is plenty.
> Personally I'm tired of seeing head shots where only the eyes are in focus. It's getting dreary.
> 
> Most studio portraits are shot between f/4 and f/8 ... the backdrop does plenty of subject isolation.
> ...



You totally forgot us, the people that shoot people in the field in any location with light. Quite a few strobists that like to control both focal length and aperture to include or exclude background ..


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## grainier (Nov 20, 2016)

JRPhotos said:


> Why would the not go with 1.2? Is this not a replacement for that lens?



Probably they discovered that the elements that need to be stabilized are too heavy in 1.2.


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## grainier (Nov 20, 2016)

mb66energy said:


> Hopefully it
> (2) doesn*t cost above 1200 EUR



I would worry about it not costing 2000+


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## Ryananthony (Nov 20, 2016)

grainier said:


> mb66energy said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully it
> ...



I'm pretty positive we will see it for more then 1900 eur. Closer to 2100 eur wouldn't surprise me.


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## Etienne (Nov 20, 2016)

Viggo said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > f/1.4, at 85mm, is more than enough for pretty much any use. In fact I think 1.8 is plenty.
> ...



How does f/1.4 with IS not serve you?


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## mb66energy (Nov 20, 2016)

grainier said:


> mb66energy said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully it
> ...



My first calculation was 400EUR (1.8/85) + 300EUR for IS + 300 EUR for 1.8 -> 1.4 upgrade + 200 EUR for some optical refinements. Compared to a 1.4 35 II (1870 EUR here in Germany) it is much easier to construct because you do not rely on heavy retrofocus constructions.
But maybe I have to correct it to 1600 EUR (settled price after 6 months) / introduced at 2kEUR.

The largest concern I have is that this lens is a beast in terms of size and mediocre close focus distance. I would pay 500 EUR for compactness and 1:4 max reproduction ratio.


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## mb66energy (Nov 20, 2016)

grainier said:


> JRPhotos said:
> 
> 
> > Why would the not go with 1.2? Is this not a replacement for that lens?
> ...



I think it is the thickness of lens groups if you go to larger apertures. Increased diameter means thicker lenses because you need the curvature radii. If there is no space left between lenses you have to redesign the whole bunch of lenses maybe do some tricks with retrofocus designs.
But mass is a concern in terms of actor size and POWER CONSUMPTION. So maybe both parameters lead to the decision to do a moderate f/1.4.


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## Berowne (Nov 20, 2016)

mb66energy said:


> grainier said:
> 
> 
> > mb66energy said:
> ...



Nikon 35/1.4 and 85/1.4 are similar expensive. This will also be true for Canon. So one should expect a new Canon EF 85/1.4L USM in a similar Price-range as the Canon EF 35/1.4L II USM. A Canon EF 85/1.4L IS USM should be more expensive as the new 35L. 

I expect ca. 2500€.


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## jdavidse (Nov 20, 2016)

LSXPhotog said:


> The new Sigma 85mm f/1.4 Art is shipping (mine arrives Monday) and then Canon Rumors makes this post...great. LOL
> 
> I'm looking forward to the Art lens, but if I have any issues with AF, the Canon may end up replacing it.



For those about to buy an 85, this might be the way to do it. For a few hundred bucks in lost value, you can evaluate the Sigma for about a year or so (I am guessing it will take some time to for the Canon to both come to market and fall in price). Sell the Sigma at a loss when you see the reviews on the new Canon, assuming its that much better. This way you can put to rest any doubts that may linger about a comparison between the two.

One of the big issues I have with the sigma is the size. I have faith that Canon can come in at or under the size of the 85 1.2. If they can do that, and match the quality of the 35 1.4LII, then I will pay up. My dream would be dual 5DIVs with these two lenses!


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## Joe M (Nov 20, 2016)

JRPhotos said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > I see a lot of people disappointed that this lens isn't going to be f/1.2.
> ...



@5', approx. .85" vs. 1"[email protected]', approx. 3.5" vs. 5",..... @20', approx. 14" vs. 17" All in all, pretty darn small differences depending of course upon your needs. The current lens is amazing in terms of course it's ability to use f1.2 but probably more for it's silky bokeh, as shown in your excellent example. I would expect Canon to do nothing less with the new lens than to match the current silky smoothness.


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## Viggo (Nov 20, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



It adds weight I really don't need, I'm NEVER shooting speeds where I need IS, I would rather have the 1.2.


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## wockawocka (Nov 20, 2016)

The 85L is gorgeous as is, just needs faster focusing and a more narrow lens hood.

I can understand the 1.4 and IS in that it'll end up being the same size and weight as the 1.2L but a 1.4L would do me without IS. Weight is a premium when you're shooting 12-14 hours at a wedding.

Hopefully the 1.8 USM will be a big enough improvement not to bother.


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## ScottyP (Nov 21, 2016)

I have never had an f/1.2 lens, but I have had f/1.4 and f/1.8 lenses. I am sure there is a difference but honestly I find I stop the lenses I have down a bit sometimes just because the DOF gets too shallow. There are really only very few shots I find more appealing with someone's eye(s) in focus but their ears blurred away. Certainly there are shots where it works, and people into photography appreciate the technical aspect of it, but for the most part I think it can look a little distracting and unnatural sometimes if overused. Can make you want to rub your eyes. My family and friends who are not into photography see the more extreme examples of shots like that and wonder if focus was somehow off or something.

I would be very happy to have an image stabilized prime from Canon at 85mm, and I can't imagine being disappointed that it may be f/1.4 v. f/1.2.


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## syder (Nov 21, 2016)

Viggo said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > Viggo said:
> ...



But anyone shooting video is probably at 1/50 or 1/60 (depending on region). At those speeds IS absolutely does make a difference if you aren't on a tripod.

The current options are the Canon 85 1.2 that doesn't have IS, the Zeiss 85 1.4s (Milvus/Otus) neither of which have IS or AF, the Samyang 84 1.4 which doesnt have IS and is manual focus, the Sigma 85 1.4 which doesn't have IS, and the tamron 85 1.8 IS which does have IS, but is 2/3 of a stop slower and lacks the magic bokeh of other options. So unless I'm missing something this would be the fastest stabilised 85mm lens in an EF mount.

For video this lens could absolutely hit it out of the park, particularly when paired with DPAF.


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## Etienne (Nov 21, 2016)

syder said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



IS is very important for handheld video but it has nothing to do with shutter speed. Even if you shoot your video at 1/4000 shutter speed, you still need IS to smooth out the video.


----------



## Viggo (Nov 21, 2016)

Etienne said:


> syder said:
> 
> 
> > Viggo said:
> ...



Of course, but not sure why video shooting has anything to do with my post. The only lens I use IS on ever is the 200 when shooting with a strobe and the ambient is low enough for syncspeed.


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## -1 (Nov 21, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I was wrong. Thanks!  Wouldn't one full stop slower than f/1.2 be f/2.8? I might not know what I am doing reading the scale. Nope, I'm wrong again. Thanks again! I see now how f/1.8 is correct.


Sure you was wrong. That's a constant... ;-) F stops ain't that hard though since it simple as double of the relative area of the aperture and that is a factor of the squarerot of 2 witch is 1.41. Hence the standard aperture series of 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8...


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## GMCPhotographics (Nov 21, 2016)

wockawocka said:


> The 85L is gorgeous as is, just needs faster focusing and a more narrow lens hood.
> 
> I can understand the 1.4 and IS in that it'll end up being the same size and weight as the 1.2L but a 1.4L would do me without IS. Weight is a premium when you're shooting 12-14 hours at a wedding.
> 
> Hopefully the 1.8 USM will be a big enough improvement not to bother.



I've not found my 85mm f1.2 II L particularly slow to focus, it's faster than the 50mm f1.2 L in both it's lock on and focus. But due to it's fly by wire design, there is a no mechanical link in the AF system so there is a slightly odd feeling to it's AF and sometimes a very slight latency. I love my 85mm f1.2 II L...it's an astonishing lens and in the right hands...produces some breath taking results. But it's not an easy lens to master. 

I have never felt the need for an IS unit in this lens and I've been shooting professionally with it for well over 10 years. Its out of focus rendering is exceptional and the angle of view is perfect for head and shoulders portraits in available light. I did a wedding in Canterbury Cathedral's crypt by candle light and flash photography was banned. My metering was 1/80th @ f1.2 @ iso 1600. The files were very clean and looked amazing. 
My blog for this wedding is available here:
http://www.gmcphotographics.co.uk/blog/?p=754

I use the hood from the TSe 45mm instead of the stock hood. It fits perfectly and it's half the length.


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## tron (Nov 21, 2016)

mb66energy said:


> Hopefully it
> (1) isn*t above 1kg
> (2) doesn*t cost above 1200 EUR
> (3) doesn't have a 86mm filter thread
> ...


My guess is you will be only partially satisfied.
(1) Most probable. Is would add some weight but the reduction to 1.4 will counteract it.
(2) Now way. You cannot possible believe that. Just compare 35mm 1.4 L vs 35mm 1.4 L II. The 85 1.2 is close to 2K. 1.4 would be c heaper but adding IS and modern design would negatea this. Expect similar price tag. You can also compare 28 2.8 vs 28 2.8 IS and 35mm 2.0 vs 35 2.0 IS.
(3) 86mm???? I didn't even know there were 86mm filters. How did you come with this number? 85 1.2L has a 72mm filter. I cannot see how a 85mm 1.4L IS would move over this or at least over 77mm...
(4) Not sure but probably. A 1:5 seems reasonable but that's a GUESS!


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## ExodistPhotography (Nov 21, 2016)

Act444 said:


> If true, this would be the fastest IS lens they've put out.
> 
> Sigh, if only it were 50mm...



50mm f/1.4 IS is likely to come soon too.. Until then the 50mm f/1.8 STM is amazingly sharp for $125 bucks..

But this is likely a non L USM lens as the current EF 85mm f/1.8 USM was released back around 1992. 

Its very likely the 50 f/1.4, 85 f/1.8 and 100mm f/2 will all be updated to have IS much like the 24, 28 and 35mm (non-L) USM lenses were updated to IS and modern body style back in 2012. Why they have been taking so long to update them is a bigger question..


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## NorbR (Nov 21, 2016)

tron said:


> (3) 86mm???? I didn't even know there were 86mm filters. How did you come with this number? 85 1.2L has a 72mm filter. I cannot see how a 85mm 1.4L IS would move over this or at least over 77mm...



Both the Sigma Art and the Zeiss Otus have 86mm filter size. So his worries on that issue are not unfounded ...


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## Antono Refa (Nov 21, 2016)

ExodistPhotography said:


> Its very likely the 50 f/1.4, 85 f/1.8 and 100mm f/2 will all be updated to have IS much like the 24, 28 and 35mm (non-L) USM lenses were updated to IS and modern body style back in 2012. Why they have been taking so long to update them is a bigger question..



I don't know why, but with Yongnuo about to sell copies of the 50 f/1.4, 85 f/1.8 and 100mm f/2, Canon will have to upgrade those lenses.

If Tamron can make an 85mm f/1.8 VC, I bet Canon would make new 85mm f/1.8 & 100mm f/2 with IS.


As for the 50mm f/1.4, I know nothing of lens design. Could someone explain to me why is it possible to make a 200mm f/2 lens with IS, but not a 50mm f/1.4?


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## Alex_M (Nov 21, 2016)

Do not bet your house on that. Canon could not care less about what Tamron and Yongnuo are doing. Not at this stage. 



Antono Refa said:


> ExodistPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Its very likely the 50 f/1.4, 85 f/1.8 and 100mm f/2 will all be updated to have IS much like the 24, 28 and 35mm (non-L) USM lenses were updated to IS and modern body style back in 2012. Why they have been taking so long to update them is a bigger question..
> ...


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## can0nfan2379 (Nov 21, 2016)

Some of my most favorite pictures have been taken with the 85 1.2L II.

I'm totally fine if they make it 1.4L. The other things I would like would be completely internal focusing, weather sealing and BR optics to reduce CA.

I can't wait to see what actually comes to market.


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## photojoern.de (Nov 21, 2016)

That lens has potential to be the new prime standard portrait photography lens. 1.4 is very wide open and the IS is genious for low light. A compelling combination. Love the prospects!


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## Etienne (Nov 21, 2016)

Viggo said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > syder said:
> ...



My comment was a response to this: "But anyone shooting video is probably at 1/50 or 1/60 (depending on region). At those speeds IS absolutely does make a difference if you aren't on a tripod."


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## FramerMCB (Nov 21, 2016)

cellomaster27 said:


> Now THIS is exciting!!! 85mm (best focal distance ever for portraits - the 135mm), F1.4 (good enough for me), and with IS! With currently used systems for improved focus motor and build quality and improved optics, it'll smash the third party lenses! Hopefully it'll have weathersealing!



In all likelihood it will smash 3rd-party lenses in price as well. (Excepting the Zeiss 85mm OTUS) I would not be surprised to see it with an initial price tag easily north of $2K USD.


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## LordofTackle (Nov 21, 2016)

FramerMCB said:


> cellomaster27 said:
> 
> 
> > Now THIS is exciting!!! 85mm (best focal distance ever for portraits - the 135mm), F1.4 (good enough for me), and with IS! With currently used systems for improved focus motor and build quality and improved optics, it'll smash the third party lenses! Hopefully it'll have weathersealing!
> ...



Since the 85/1.2 II is still in that price region (in germany around 1800€) I expect that new lens to come in at far north of 2000€/$...probably even close to $3000 :/


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## JRPhotos (Nov 21, 2016)

LordofTackle said:


> FramerMCB said:
> 
> 
> > cellomaster27 said:
> ...


I doubt it'd be more than $2100 USD.


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## GMCPhotographics (Nov 21, 2016)

It's a pity it's not an f1.2 design...in that regards...it's a step backwards. The current model seems to invent light from no where and it's so bright...it can't be used wide open outdoors on sunny days. It's also got a minimum aperture of only f16. 
Sure...adding an IS unit will keep the video guys happy...which is probably the 2nd crowd that it needs to please. It's pretty much a given that it'll have the blue goo over one of the internal elements to reduce purple fringing and it'll have a newer 9 blade diaphragm...and that it'll have the latest coatings and fluoride surfaces. It'll probably have a traditional mechanical AF linkage too. It's likely to be a show stopped in terms of wide open sharpness and the measure-baters are sure to be pleased. 
BUT...losing the f1.2 aperture is a real pity...it set this lens apart in the market place and still isn't matched by any of its rival marques. Personally, I think Canon should have made both the the 35mm II L and 24mm IIIL f1.2 lenses as well. But it's not to be. 
I understand that the level of engineering to make an f1.2 lens is a lot more than f1.4 and there is a law of diminishing returns. There is a certain prestige that Canon gains from making such a stunning and impressive optic. But I guess these days...Canon doesn't need to make that kind of statement any more.


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## chrysoberyl (Nov 21, 2016)

NorbR said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > (3) 86mm???? I didn't even know there were 86mm filters. How did you come with this number? 85 1.2L has a 72mm filter. I cannot see how a 85mm 1.4L IS would move over this or at least over 77mm...
> ...



The Samyang 85 1.2 also has the 86mm filter size.

Speaking of which, I'm surprised there isn't any mention of the Samyang in this thread. The ePHOTOZIne review is quite positive. I'll admit this is a reviewer I don't know well, but it reads like a reasonable, if limited, review.


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## Maiaibing (Nov 21, 2016)

GMCPhotographics said:


> BUT...losing the f1.2 aperture is a real pity...it set this lens apart in the market place and still isn't matched by any of its rival marques. Personally, I think Canon should have made both the the 35mm II L and 24mm IIIL f1.2 lenses as well. But it's not to be.



I understand your feelings. But no one can seriously claim they can eyeball a 85mm f/1.2 picture from a 85mm f/1.4 picture.


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## pokerz (Nov 21, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > BUT...losing the f1.2 aperture is a real pity...it set this lens apart in the market place and still isn't matched by any of its rival marques. Personally, I think Canon should have made both the the 35mm II L and 24mm IIIL f1.2 lenses as well. But it's not to be.
> ...


Then what was the reason for Canon's f1.2 len?


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## GMCPhotographics (Nov 22, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > BUT...losing the f1.2 aperture is a real pity...it set this lens apart in the market place and still isn't matched by any of its rival marques. Personally, I think Canon should have made both the the 35mm II L and 24mm IIIL f1.2 lenses as well. But it's not to be.
> ...



Are you saying you cant see the difference between a 50mm f1.4 USM image and one from a 50mm f1.2L? I certainly can. I can also see the vast difference between a 50mm f1.0L image and a 50mm f1.2L image. I can certainly see th difference between a Nikon 85mm f1.4 and Canon 85mm f1.2 image...it's not differentiate.


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## Besisika (Nov 22, 2016)

Finally they came up with something that can beat my beloved lens.
I clearly see 3 scenarios where no lens can beat this one, provided good sharpness.

1 - outdoor night portraiture. Daylight shooters won't be interested in IS as they have plenty of light. However at night, when only street lights are available 1.4 is most welcomed. And actually, it is not because of the subject, rather it because of the background. My approach is to put the subject in "absolute" dark, light by a video light to aid focusing and for fill light and use a flash for key light. However, wanting to have low ISO bokeh suffers. And by bokeh I mean the circles created by shallow DOF. With the current non-IS version, sometimes my bokeh looks like I am drunk when looking at my photos, because of ghosts. The flash will freeze the subject micro movement but the IS will handle the background bokeh.
This will apply to shooting weddings in big locations when wanting to preserve the background exposure (not to contaminate with strobe).

2 - Video shooting. If you think you are going to shoot handheld video with an 85 1.4 IS you are greatly mistaken, even if they are going to use the fabulous IS on the 100 2.8L. I guarantee after 1min you will begin see clear movement, due to focal length and weight. However, for monopod, which is the way event videographers at that focal length really do, this lens will be the king. 
As someone gave an example earlier, a typical event low light is 1/60th, f1.4, ISO 1600. Video noise at that ISO is quite acceptable. you will be very surprised how much depth of field you have for a full body shoot, and yes DPAF will help very much.

3 - finally, the future of indoor event shooting; which is simultaneous video and photo.
At 1/60th sec you will be able to shoot video, slide it out of the monopod, put a flash trigger and within 10sec able to shoot photo, with perfect background exposure and IS.

Maybe just my eyes but I don't really see difference between 1.2 and 1.4 at 85mm, I tested it.
I don't know about 50mm, I don't own ones. 
I am certain though that 35mm 1.4 and 1.6 are totally different. I think, I tested that one as well.


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## docsmith (Nov 22, 2016)

People...people...people....

The answer is so obvious....

EF 85 f/1.4 L IS USM is not replacing the EF 85 f/1.2 II.....the EF 85 f/1.0 will ....

f/1.4 for those that want it... f/1.0 to stake a flag pole as the best lens company out there.  

We can dream, right?


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## pwp (Nov 22, 2016)

pokerz said:


> Then what was the reason for Canon's f1.2 lens?


There was probably a bit of "oneupmansship" by Canon and also the fact that for most projects where high quality was essential, photographers were restricted to 100 iso film. Very bright lenses were helpful. That reason is now ancient history of course.

-pw


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## drjlo (Nov 22, 2016)

I love the look of 85L II images, and if Canon had kept same optics and just added IS, I would have bought it. :'(


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## Jopa (Nov 22, 2016)

Nice. With the new Canon 85 IS I'll be having five 85mm lenses total


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## geekpower (Nov 22, 2016)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > GMCPhotographics said:
> ...



you can't seriously claim that the difference between the 50 f/1.4 and the 50 f/1.2L is solely the 1/3 stop in aperture. even the 50 f/1.2L and 50 f/1.0L differ by far more than the 2/3 stop max aperture. they are 3 different lenses with different characters.

take an 85mm lens focused at 8 feet, and the dof will be 2.3" at 1.2 and 2.6" at 1.4. yes, 0.3" can make a difference in some photos, but canon is obviously betting that most people would happily trade that for IS that lets them shoot a lower iso and get a better looking picture overall.


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## 9VIII (Nov 22, 2016)

docsmith said:


> People...people...people....
> 
> The answer is so obvious....
> 
> ...



Nope, dreaming can't break physics. It's impossible to make an 85f1.2 on the Nikon F mount, and f1.2 is probably the widest that an 85mm lens can go on the EF mount. When the electronic contacts have to be glued to the rear element on the current 85f1.2, I'm betting there's no possible way to go wider at that focal length.

So, given how much smaller the lens is anyway, maybe they can make a 50mm f1.0 IS?

While they're at it, an EF-M 18mm f1.0 IS would be really nice.


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## Maiaibing (Nov 22, 2016)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > GMCPhotographics said:
> ...


No. Just read what I wrote, which is clear enough.


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## Maiaibing (Nov 22, 2016)

9VIII said:


> docsmith said:
> 
> 
> > People...people...people....
> ...


Not sure I can follow your line of argument. What metrics are you using for this calculation?


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## jolyonralph (Nov 22, 2016)

It's a genius move by Canon. Everyone who wants a decent portrait lens will buy the new 85mm f/1.4L IS, but those who already have the 85mm f/1.2L will probably have to keep both, just to be safe


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## Viggo (Nov 22, 2016)

Maiaibing said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > docsmith said:
> ...



Big aperture, big hole in the lens. Camera mount hole smaller than what a 85 f1.0 would be.


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## 9VIII (Nov 22, 2016)

Viggo said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > 9VIII said:
> ...



Ok, so according to this: http://www.naturfotograf.com/lens_spec.html
There's an old Nikkor 85f1.0 with a 48mm inner throat (apparently it's a macro lens without focusing capabilities), which would still fit within the EF mount, so using whatever design that lens is maybe it's possible, regardless it's really pushing the limits.
I don't know the formula used to determine the exit diameter, it sounds like that aspect of a lens is variable to some degree, but we know for sure that Caonon is already approaching the boundaries with existing designs and it's a good question whether or not they can go much further.


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## jeffa4444 (Nov 22, 2016)

Canon are almost certainly doing a 85mm f1.4L IS to combat Sigma who,s Art series lenses have been a thorn in Canon & Nikon side. 
Canon have done a 85mm f1.0 lenses before as we know and their is more logic in replacing the f1.2L lens with this aperture and creating three choices with whole stop differences. Don't expect the 1.4L to be cheap though my bet is it will be in the Euro 1,800 - 2,000 region or £ 1,600 - 1,800 much like the 35mm f1.4L II.


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## tron (Nov 22, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> Canon are almost certainly doing a 85mm f1.4L IS to combat Sigma who,s Art series lenses have been a thorn in Canon & Nikon side.
> Canon have done a 85mm f1.0 lenses before as we know and their is more logic in replacing the f1.2L lens with this aperture and creating three choices with whole stop differences. Don't expect the 1.4L to be cheap though my bet is it will be in the Euro 1,800 - 2,000 region or £ 1,600 - 1,800 much like the 35mm f1.4L II.


When Canon did a 85mm f1.0 ?


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## LordofTackle (Nov 22, 2016)

I was wondering the same...maybe he mixed it up with the 50mm?


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## j-nord (Nov 22, 2016)

tron said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > Canon are almost certainly doing a 85mm f1.4L IS to combat Sigma who,s Art series lenses have been a thorn in Canon & Nikon side.
> ...


I think he might be mistaken. There may still be room for a f1.2, f1.4 IS and f1.8. But I'm skeptical that a f1.2 could sell at a higher price point than a f1.4 IS @ $1200-1600


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## Random Orbits (Nov 22, 2016)

jolyonralph said:


> It's a genius move by Canon. Everyone who wants a decent portrait lens will buy the new 85mm f/1.4L IS, but those who already have the 85mm f/1.2L will probably have to keep both, just to be safe



+1. I was thinking the same thing.


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## FramerMCB (Nov 22, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> Canon are almost certainly doing a 85mm f1.4L IS to combat Sigma who,s Art series lenses have been a thorn in Canon & Nikon side.
> Canon have done a 85mm f1.0 lenses before as we know and their is more logic in replacing the f1.2L lens with this aperture and creating three choices with whole stop differences. Don't expect the 1.4L to be cheap though my bet is it will be in the Euro 1,800 - 2,000 region or £ 1,600 - 1,800 much like the 35mm f1.4L II.



It will be quite a bit more than the 35mm f1.4L II. More glass, bigger lens (=more materials), IS, and demand. While I'm sure there is plenty of demand for the 35mm lens/focal length. I would bet the demand for an excellent 85mm with a wide aperture AND IS, and because of it's focal length, will have a broader appeal/demand. I would be highly surprised, if this lens gets made - based loosely on this rumor, that it would be less then $2000USD at introduction. In fact, it's not beyond possibility that it comes in around $2200-2400USD.


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## FramerMCB (Nov 22, 2016)

pokerz said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > GMCPhotographics said:
> ...



Because they could design and make it, knowing if they did it right (which they most certainly did) that it would be a good seller for them. I'm sure they went into designing it, knowing they could sell them and make a profit.


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## AJ (Nov 22, 2016)

I'm really surprised by this.

I was expecting the 85/1.8 to be replaced by an affordable 85/2 IS, and I thought they'd leave their 85/1.2 mk 2 alone. Just like 35/2 IS and 35/1.4 mk 2.

Strange. Curious.


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## GMCPhotographics (Nov 22, 2016)

FramerMCB said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > Canon are almost certainly doing a 85mm f1.4L IS to combat Sigma who,s Art series lenses have been a thorn in Canon & Nikon side.
> ...



I think you'll find that the retail cost will have very little to do with the component cost or the build cost. Most of the inflated prices are to re-coup their R&D cost and it's also what ever the buying market will bare...which has shown that people will pay large sums and in large quantities for exotic optics.


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## wockawocka (Nov 22, 2016)

AJ said:


> I'm really surprised by this.
> 
> I was expecting the 85/1.8 to be replaced by an affordable 85/2 IS, and I thought they'd leave their 85/1.2 mk 2 alone. Just like 35/2 IS and 35/1.4 mk 2.
> 
> Strange. Curious.



Nah, the 85L ii needs faster focusing and it needs to drop the focus by wire. Plus, blue goo to give CA free F/1.2


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## grainier (Nov 22, 2016)

pokerz said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > GMCPhotographics said:
> ...



Because Nikon is 1.4.


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## GMCPhotographics (Nov 22, 2016)

grainier said:


> pokerz said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



I don't understand your train of thought. So Nikon releases an inferior and less bright variant to Canon's pre-existing lens (a lens linage which goes back to pre-AF days) and re-design it to compete with that? That's a step backwards, not forwards.


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## Antono Refa (Nov 22, 2016)

AJ said:


> I was expecting the 85/1.8 to be replaced by an affordable 85/2 IS, and I thought they'd leave their 85/1.2 mk 2 alone. Just like 35/2 IS and 35/1.4 mk 2.



My thoughts are:

1. Tamron has an 85mm f/1.8 VC, I see no reason for Canon to go f/2.

2. With Yongnuo selling copies of the EF 85mm f/1.8, I don't see Canon waiting much longer with the upgrade.

3. My impression is the 85mm f/1.8 isn't up to today's high res sensors.

So I'd expect a new EF 85mm f/1.8 IS USM coming soon.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 22, 2016)

What if this rumored lens isn't an EF 85mm f/1.4L IS lens, but rather an EF-M 85mm f/2.4 IS? Clearly, that's a lens for which there would be millions thousands hundreds at least one buyer. 

;D


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## rrcphoto (Nov 22, 2016)

GMCPhotographics said:


> grainier said:
> 
> 
> > pokerz said:
> ...



optics and physics may have a play here?

the back element of an 85 1.2 "just" fits inside the EF mount throat.

however if there's a middle IS element, wouldn't it have to be larger to compensate for the shift of the elements?


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## sdsr (Nov 22, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> My thoughts are:
> 
> 1. Tamron has an 85mm f/1.8 VC, I see no reason for Canon to go f/2.
> 
> ...



Re 2 - is that lens anywhere near as good as the Canon 85 1.8?

Re 3 - Your standard of "up to" may be higher than mine, but I'm impressed by the performance of the Canon 85 1.8 when I attach it to my Sony a7r (36 MP) & a7rII (43 MP), for all that I prefer to attach my Canon FD 85L and several other old MF 85mm lenses to them (the latter's IBIS is handy); I guess the 85 1.8could be a bit sharper wide open, but the only flaw I notice is the well-known purple fringing issue that plagues the EF 85L too.


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## Antono Refa (Nov 22, 2016)

sdsr said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > My thoughts are:
> ...



The Yongnuo 50mm f/1.8 is about as good, I'd say its safe to say the 85mm f/1.8 would be as well.



sdsr said:


> Re 3 - Your standard of "up to" may be higher than mine



The photozone review of the 85mm f/1.8 shows the center resolution peaking at ~3,400 LW/PH, while the 11-24mm f/4L review shows the center resolution (and I am looking at the 21MP section) peaking at ~3,700 LW/PH.

So my impression is Canon could improve the the 85mm f/1.8's resolution.


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## AJ (Nov 23, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> AJ said:
> 
> 
> > I was expecting the 85/1.8 to be replaced by an affordable 85/2 IS, and I thought they'd leave their 85/1.2 mk 2 alone. Just like 35/2 IS and 35/1.4 mk 2.
> ...



Maybe it'll be f/1.8 rather than f/2.
Mind, you, the Tamron comes in at 750 USD. A Canon variant would likely be around 1000 USD.
The current Canon 85/1.8 costs around 420 USD (Currently on sale at 350 USD; I paid about 350 CAD for mine back in the day). 
So if they keep the aperture at f/1.8 and they add IS, then the price of the lens should be about double to triple that of the current lens.


----------



## Antono Refa (Nov 23, 2016)

AJ said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > AJ said:
> ...



That wouldn't surprise me.

For starters, it is in Canon's interest to sell new & improved lenses for a much higher price, as long as the market bears the new price. All the more so if can keep on selling the current 85mm f/1.8, just like it does the previous 24mm-28mm-35mm & 75-300mm lenses.

Then the 85mm f/1.8 was made in 1992 (and possibly recycling some of the FD 85mm f/1.8's design and manufacturing facilities), so Canon had plenty of time to return the investment and lower the lens' price.


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## jolyonralph (Nov 23, 2016)

This is somewhat of an aside, but I tried both the Yongnuo 50mm and the Canon 50mm f/1.8 II on the Sony A7RII with the Metabones adaptor and the Yongnuo would not focus properly, constantly seeking and failing to lock, while the noisy but reliable Canon worked fine.

Full marks to Yongnuo for knocking out cheap lenses with reasonable optics, but there are differences.


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## MintChocs (Nov 23, 2016)

mclaren777 said:


> Crap, I ordered the new Sigma 85mm Art yesterday.
> 
> I'm probably going to cancel my order and wait for this one.


You might want to consider the "look" of the lens rather than just because it has IS. With a lot of portraits the colour rendition, bokeh, micro contrast play an important part in choosing a lens. Canon may have included IS only to help sell more lenses so it might be wise to wait and see.


----------



## ExodistPhotography (Nov 23, 2016)

Antono Refa said:


> [
> 
> So my impression is Canon could improve the the 85mm f/1.8's resolution.



I agree....

It can be improved, it is a old lens released back in 1992 and it shows. I own this lens and while it does hold up very good on say the 6D and 5D3, it start showing its age on the 5DSr, IV and all the current APS-C bodies with high density pixel pitches.. That and Chroma is a huge issue plus it needs stopped down to f/2.8 to become sharp. This is the lens that I am thinking they will update next IMHO.. Followed by the non-L 50 and 100mm lenses.. I do hope for IS though like on the EF 35mm f/2 IS USM lens that was released late 2012..


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## Antono Refa (Nov 23, 2016)

MintChocs said:


> mclaren777 said:
> 
> 
> > Crap, I ordered the new Sigma 85mm Art yesterday.
> ...



Good point, but time table has to be considered as well.

This is a rumor.

As stated, the spec might be wrong, so when the lens comes out, it might not be a lens he would like to buy.

Then it would take a while until the lens is announced, then it might be a few months until the lens hits the shelves.

So it might be smarter to buy the Sigma now, wait till the reviews are out, wait for the price drop, then trade in.


----------



## ExodistPhotography (Nov 23, 2016)

Besisika said:


> Finally they came up with something that can beat my beloved lens.
> I clearly see 3 scenarios where no lens can beat this one, provided good sharpness.



Another thing everyone is missing here is that becuase higher MP cameras have smaller pixels, at the pixel level lenses without IS start to show softness and blur. The whole rule of thumb about just shoot faster then 1 over your focal range falls a part the more dense the pixel pitch. So while many may want f/1.2 from a bokeh point of view a f/1.4 with 4 stops of IS becomes a more logical choice for high MP cameras. That and seriously the current 85mm f/1.2 is F'n huge.. Putting IS in that thing would make it almost as large as the 200 f/1.8L LOL.. No portrait photographer would want to ever hand hold that thing more then a few minutes at a time.. 

So that said, its very likely Canon will go to f/1.4L with IS and also go to f/2 & IS on the non-L 85mm Lenses..


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 23, 2016)

JMZawodny said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > optics and physics may have a play here?
> ...



I think he meant the rear element would need to be larger _in diameter_ to accommodate the shifting elements within the lens.


----------



## Luds34 (Nov 23, 2016)

ExodistPhotography said:


> Antono Refa said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



I too tend to agree, it could be a bit sharper. 

Although I want to point out that this is a lens that sharpens up quite a bit by just stopping down a little. There is probably decent copy variation out there as well so I'll consider myself lucky. I never shoot the lens wide open as I've never been happy with the look. However, just stopping down to f/2 makes a world of difference in my experience and that is where I use the lens the most.

The biggest flaw with this lens is the CA, purple fringing in my opinion.

This is a tough one for me. I'd like to eventually upgrade to the latest/greatest tech in a new 85mm of some sort but I have a feeling it won't ultimately result in me creating better images and I'll end up disappointed with a bit of buyers remorse.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> JMZawodny said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



correct the rear element would have to be bigger to handle the fact that the elements in front of it are shifting.


----------



## Machaon (Nov 23, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> We don’t know if the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS will be a replacement for the EF 85mm f/1.2L II or an addition to the lineup.



Canon's new blue-refraction technology produces magnificent optical improvements to the old lens designs.
I hope the new 85mm f/1.4L is built as a replacement for the f/1.2L II.
The current lens shows really dramatic chromatic aberration wide open, more than many of its high-end competitors, and would really benefit from the new coatings.
That might once again justify its price point in the current market.
The Sigma 85mm Art lens has probably forced Canon's hand here. In competition with the current Canon lens, the Sigma would no doubt own the market.
But if Canon offered an optically equivalent lens, I would accept their price premium if only for the fact that one could rely on the native EOS autofocus at wide-open apertures.
As for the addition of IS, I am currently ambivalent. On the one hand, it increases cost and can degrade image quality. On the other hand, the shooting envelope available for - say - 5D Mark IV with 85 mm wide open at f/1.4 and 4-stop IS creates interesting creative opportunities in low light. Maybe that is enough to sway my thinking.
I wait with interest...


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## Machaon (Nov 23, 2016)

Chris Jankowski said:


> With digital cameras that produce high quality low noise images at 3200 ISO, it simply makes no sense to design these monsters.


Unless, of course, you are after the unique creative control over depth of field that wide apertures provide.
There is absolutely still a place for f/1.2.


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## AvTvM (Nov 24, 2016)

EF 85/1.4 L IS with stellar performance makes sense. ever higher rez sensors (5DS/R) and increased competition by Sigma. it will be successor to 85/1.2 L, with a drawn-out "soft fade-out" of the f/1.2. At 85mm focal length, f/1.4 provides ample potential for DOF magic. 

Other than this, updates for aging 50/1.4, 85/1.8 and 100/2.0 have become urgent. canon will likely follow the path they took with 24/28/35 IS. so, a EF 50/1.4 L IS as "flagship 50" to (soft) replace 50/1.2 may be next. 

3 EF prime lens collections:
• L "Luxurious": 14/2.8 III, 24/1.4 II, 35/1.4 II, 50/1.4 IS, 85/1.4 IS, 135/2.0 IS, 200/2.0 IS II 
• P "performance": 24/2.8, 28/2.8, 35/2.0 IS, 50/1.8 IS, 85/1.8 IS, 100/2.0 IS
• U "ultra compact": 24/2.8 STM pancake, 40/2.8 STM pancake, 50/1.8 STM, 85/2.4 STM 

sounds logical, right? Well, expect Canon to do something completely different, not so logical. 


plus of course an ultra compact EF-M 85/2.4 STM IS.


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## Besisika (Nov 24, 2016)

ExodistPhotography said:


> Another thing everyone is missing here is that becuase higher MP cameras have smaller pixels, at the pixel level lenses without IS start to show softness and blur. The whole rule of thumb about just shoot faster then 1 over your focal range falls a part the more dense the pixel pitch. So while many may want f/1.2 from a bokeh point of view a f/1.4 with 4 stops of IS becomes a more logical choice for high MP cameras.



Good to know!


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Nov 25, 2016)

Besisika said:


> ExodistPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Another thing everyone is missing here is that becuase higher MP cameras have smaller pixels, at the pixel level lenses without IS start to show softness and blur. The whole rule of thumb about just shoot faster then 1 over your focal range falls a part the more dense the pixel pitch. So while many may want f/1.2 from a bokeh point of view a f/1.4 with 4 stops of IS becomes a more logical choice for high MP cameras.
> ...



Just to split hairs...the pixels aren't actually smaller...they are just more tightly packed together and more of them. The actual dimensions of the pixels are the same and have been for a long while. The lenses over those pixels are smaller though. In the early days of CMOS sensors, the micro lenses had spaces between them, but since the 5DII, Canon micro lenses have been gapless. 

Human hands can only hand hold to a certain resolution (60 lines pre m/m) so go beyond that figure and it's just not possible to hand hold it any more. The upper shutter speeds aren't really that helpful because they are simulated speeds using a slower shutter movement but a narrower slit between the shutter blades. So there is an upper limit on usable shutter speed too. An IS unit can help, but there comes a point where a sturdy tripod is needed for absolute sharpness. Ideally...one without a central column. This is why you will see any half descent landscape photographer using a tripod in 99% of their work.


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## AvTvM (Nov 25, 2016)

cannot follow. pixel pitch is smaller when 50 million rather than 18 million are crammed onto the same physical sensor space. "gapless" has been the norm for microlenses for many years now. ever smaller pixel pitch is taking its toll in visible diffraction losses on IQ at apertures as low as f/8 on FF sensors and lower on smaller sensors.

shutter times are not "similated" but real. no matter how exactly they are achieved. shutter and mirror shock vibrations however are real and have more impact on small pixel pitch hi-rez sensors. tripod alone is not enough. delayed exposure / silent mode / electronic first curtain are also needed. 

hopefully solid state mirrorles cameras with global electronic shutter and absolutely no moving parts inside will soon put an end to all vibration-induced problems. mirrorslappers wont ever get there.


----------



## GMCPhotographics (Nov 25, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> cannot follow. pixel pitch is smaller when 50 million rather than 18 million are crammed onto the same physical sensor space. "gapless" has been the norm for microlenses for many years now. ever smaller pixel pitch is taking its toll in visible diffraction losses on IQ at apertures as low as f/8 on FF sensors and lower on smaller sensors.
> 
> shutter times are not "similated" but real. no matter how exactly they are achieved. shutter and mirror shock vibrations however are real and have more impact on small pixel pitch hi-rez sensors. tripod alone is not enough. delayed exposure / silent mode / electronic first curtain are also needed.
> 
> hopefully solid state mirrorles cameras with global electronic shutter and absolutely no moving parts inside will soon put an end to all vibration-induced problems. mirrorslappers wont ever get there.



I assume that by similated you mean Simulated and not some kind of Borg assimilation thing. 

The max real shutter speed of canon's old cloth shutters was 1/60th sec. This was the fastest that the shutter rolls could actually move. The fast speeds were made up with the phasing between the two cloth blinds...simulating a faster shutter. The newer twin vertical blades operate in the same way. I don't know what the actual fastest native shutter speed is, but it isn't going to much different due to the mechanics. The twin vertical blade shutter calculates it's shutter speed by the time between the two vertical curtains falling...but the blades themselves don't actually move any faster past a certain shutter speed. 

Global shutters also work in a similar way, the don't turn on the whole shutter at 1/2000th of a second. An active pulse is run through the shutter making a "pretend shutter blind". Some video guys say that they get weird registration artifacts when using a global shutter. Parts of the frame move before the sensor pass has completed making weird and odd movements between frames. 

Pixel pitch and pixel size are two completely different metrics. Pixel pitch is the distance between the center of one pixel and the center of the next. This is why this metric reduces as more pixels are crammed on to a sensor surface area. Each time that more pixels are etched onto a sensor, the lenses that covers them get smaller and more bunched up. It's the size of these micro lenses that cause more or less photons to hit the pixel, so smaller micro lenses creates more iso noise than larger ones, not the pixels. The pixels underneath the micro lenses are a lot smaller than most people realize. There is little benefit in making them bigger because it's the micro lenses that are doing most of the light gathering work here. The pixel size on Canon CMOS DSLR cameras hasn't changed much over the years.


----------



## AvTvM (Nov 25, 2016)

even with a kickstarter project global shutters can do 1/500.000s ... real. not simulated. 100% mechanics-free. solid state. 

https://m.dpreview.com/news/3183042217/chronos-high-speed-camera-hits-crowdfunding-goal-in-record-time

i want a solid state ff mirrorless camera with global shutter from canon. 1/8000s or even 1/4000s would be fine alteady with me. i am easy to please.


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## GMCPhotographics (Nov 26, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> even with a kickstarter project global shutters can do 1/500.000s ... real. not simulated. 100% mechanics-free. solid state.
> 
> https://m.dpreview.com/news/3183042217/chronos-high-speed-camera-hits-crowdfunding-goal-in-record-time
> 
> i want a solid state ff mirrorless camera with global shutter from canon. 1/8000s or even 1/4000s would be fine alteady with me. i am easy to please.



Looks great, I'll look forwards to playing with one someday


----------



## JMZawodny (Nov 26, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> JMZawodny said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



I understand, but if the shifting was effective the final aperture should be sufficient.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Nov 26, 2016)

JMZawodny said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > JMZawodny said:
> ...



Makes sense.


----------



## rrcphoto (Nov 27, 2016)

JMZawodny said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > JMZawodny said:
> ...



wasn't the question / supposition.

do the elements behind the IS unit have to be larger to compensate for the shifting elements?

and if so, is there physical room in an EF mount for that to happen?


----------



## Maiaibing (Nov 27, 2016)

Besisika said:


> So while many may want f/1.2 from a bokeh point of view a f/1.4 with 4 stops of IS becomes a more logical choice for high MP cameras.



You get more blur @f/1.2. But not necessarily better bokeh than @f/1.4...


----------



## mb66energy (Nov 27, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> even with a kickstarter project global shutters can do 1/500.000s ... real. not simulated. 100% mechanics-free. solid state.
> 
> https://m.dpreview.com/news/3183042217/chronos-high-speed-camera-hits-crowdfunding-goal-in-record-time
> 
> i want a solid state ff mirrorless camera with global shutter from canon. 1/8000s or even 1/4000s would be fine alteady with me. i am easy to please.



I like solid state solutions too. But the Chronos achieves the 1/500 000 shutter speed only at the highest framerate ... showing 640x96 pixels. This is 1/20 of its sensor area which is 1/12 of FF sensor area. A FF sensor needs 240 times the time for global shutter which is 1/2000 theoretically. I am shure that this simple calculation is o.k. because speed is limited by the capacity of the sensor which is proportional to the sensor area. Charging and discharging large capacities requires comparatively large electric currents which may induce side effects disturbing IQ.

Only some tricks like dividing the sensor in different sections where global shutter is applied simultanously might help to make global shutter for FF sensors possible (the short exp times you and I want). Maybe this will come with still higher integration of electronics on the sensor die.


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## AvTvM (Nov 27, 2016)

mb66energy said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > even with a kickstarter project global shutters can do 1/500.000s ... real. not simulated. 100% mechanics-free. solid state.
> ...



I would accept a measly 1/4000s global shutter on an FF sensor. Should work easily ... 1/500.000s * 1/12 = plenty of leeway for 1/4000


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## scyrene (Nov 30, 2016)

Act444 said:


> Nevertheless, I'm using the 100 2.8 Macro IS which currently lives on my 5DSR and love that perspective for portrait shots. The IS is EXTREMELY helpful for hand-holding with the high resolution. This new 85, assuming it comes to fruition, could be a candidate as a lens to permanently attach to the 5DSR for portraits, freeing up the 100 once again. Although I really do like the 100mm perspective...but having two extra stops could be huge in certain situations.



One advantage of a macro lens is the superior sharpness wide open (not that the others are soft, but macro lenses tend to be sharper). I've seen some excellent portrait work done with the 100L macro.


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## Act444 (Nov 30, 2016)

Yeah, that 100 is definitely sharp...to put it in perspective, I often use the 5DS R and 5D3 as a pair...The 5DSR pictures are often sharper and crisper AT 100% - WITH the highly demanding 50MP sensor - than the 5D3 pics are at 100% at 22MP with the 24-105 at its long end. That was a real eye-opener for me...


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## scyrene (Dec 1, 2016)

Act444 said:


> Yeah, that 100 is definitely sharp...to put it in perspective, I often use the 5DS R and 5D3 as a pair...The 5DSR pictures are often sharper and crisper AT 100% - WITH the highly demanding 50MP sensor - than the 5D3 pics are at 100% at 22MP with the 24-105 at its long end. That was a real eye-opener for me...



The 100L macro is probably my favourite lens. Not that I use it all the time, but when I come back to it, it never ceases to impress me, and its value-to-image-quality ratio is excellent. And in addition to macros and portraiture, it makes a pretty good, if slightly long, all round lens.


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## infared (Dec 3, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Act444 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, that 100 is definitely sharp...to put it in perspective, I often use the 5DS R and 5D3 as a pair...The 5DSR pictures are often sharper and crisper AT 100% - WITH the highly demanding 50MP sensor - than the 5D3 pics are at 100% at 22MP with the 24-105 at its long end. That was a real eye-opener for me...
> ...



Good point. I am usually amazed at the sharpness and contrast in the images that I get with mine. That lens is impressive.
....but the dreamy bokeh from my 85mm f/1.2L II grenade is also quite impressive for different reasons and uses. I am sure that this new iteration of the 85mm w/IS 8), will be impressive....but the current version will remain the sought-after classic that it is.


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## Etienne (Dec 3, 2016)

I have a dream ...

... that it will be 600g, and $1200


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## tron (Dec 3, 2016)

Etienne said:


> I have a dream ...
> 
> ... that it will be 600g, and $1200


Ntriiiiiin it's the wake alarm ;D


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## vscd (Dec 3, 2016)

scyrene said:


> One advantage of a macro lens is the superior sharpness wide open (not that the others are soft, but macro lenses tend to be sharper). I've seen some excellent portrait work done with the 100L macro.



I don't think this has something to do with beeing a macro, but of course sharpness is the most important point on such lenses. So they usually perform good in this regard. I also own the 100L which is a hell of a lens for the price (L, weathersealed, HybridIS, sharp...), but don't forget: even if the 100L is sharp wide open, the 85L II is *sharper* stopped down to f2.8


----------



## Jopa (Dec 3, 2016)

Etienne said:


> I have a dream ...
> 
> ... that it will be 600g, and $1200



By todays definitions a 600g 85mm lens is a sign of not-so-good optics  Look at the Otus / Milvus / Sigma etc... 1kg is a must. And the price - $1200 is good for Sigma. For a "prime brand" it's going to be at least $1800. 

If we see an 85mm Canon lens for $1200 / 600g it won't be worth buying most likely


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## Talley (Dec 3, 2016)

So I have the 85 ART and it's AF is rock solid and the thing is darn sharp and the bokeh is very good. So I'm 100% happy and initially I was thinking OOOoooo I want the IS canon version.

But shooting people I tend to be in the 1/160min range anyway so then it's like... well you just KNOW canon's version will be 2200 so I won't upgrade.

The end.


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## ktatty (Dec 3, 2016)

Its about time !


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## infared (Dec 4, 2016)

Talley said:


> So I have the 85 ART and it's AF is rock solid and the thing is darn sharp and the bokeh is very good. So I'm 100% happy and initially I was thinking OOOoooo I want the IS canon version.
> 
> But shooting people I tend to be in the 1/160min range anyway so then it's like... well you just KNOW canon's version will be 2200 so I won't upgrade.
> 
> The end.



(I think you meant 1/160sec  )
I have the 80-200 f/2.8L IS when I need fast focus...and have the Canon 85mm f/1.2L II when I need more subject separation, bokeh and sometimes downright magic....So I have this focal length somewhat covered for my needs...
I do own the 20mm, 35mm & 50mm Sigma Arts, though....and find them to be incredible glass for the price once carefully calibrated on the Sigma Dock for my 5DIII. I am sure that your 85mm Art must be fantastic...I would not lose any sleep over a super expensive lens that "may" be released in 2017. "A bird in the hand..."


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## Alex_M (Dec 4, 2016)

My Sigma 85 Art is still on back order. There is no stock in Australia with first shipment expected to hit the country on the 16th of December 2016 in extremely limited quantities. The second shipment is expected to arrive on 15-25th of January 2017. At this stage it looks though that I am going to receive my lens in Jan 2017. I preordered the lens in the first week of November.


----------



## Etienne (Dec 4, 2016)

Jopa said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I have a dream ...
> ...



It was a nice dream while it lasted!


----------



## Etienne (Dec 4, 2016)

tron said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I have a dream ...
> ...



Is there a snooze button for that?


----------



## slclick (Dec 4, 2016)

This and the 135 f/2L would be a great 1-2 punch for portraits or indoor action.


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## Hjalmarg1 (Dec 4, 2016)

mitchel2002 said:


> cellomaster27 said:
> 
> 
> > Now THIS is exciting!!! 85mm (best focal distance ever for portraits - the 135mm), F1.4 (good enough for me), and with IS! With currently used systems for improved focus motor and build quality and improved optics, it'll smash the third party lenses! Hopefully it'll have weathersealing!
> ...


Count me in! But I hope that it's not heavier than the current 85L, and priced around the Nikon/Sony rivals, filter isn't larger than 77mm 6mm filter and with reproduction ratio of 1:8 or better. Then, my 100L will be for sale.


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## Hjalmarg1 (Dec 4, 2016)

Etienne said:


> Jopa said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...


Nikon and Sony rivals are around USD 1600-1800 so, Canon will never be cheaper :-\ :'(


----------



## mb66energy (Dec 4, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> [...]
> 
> I would accept a measly 1/4000s global shutter on an FF sensor. Should work easily ... 1/500.000s * 1/12 = plenty of leeway for 1/4000



I wasn't clear enough: 1/500 000 is achieved for the lowest resolution which has the twentieth path of Chronos'sensor so the effective size is 1/20 * 1/12 = 1/240 of effective size of a FF sensor - the 1/500 000 s should be multiplied by 240 (~250) so we are at 1/2000 theoretically.
(Electric) capacities are a bad problem in fast systems so maybe 1/500 is realistic for the high quality read out of a FF sensor. Good for film but less for using f/2.0 at 12:00 AM at sunny skies.

On the other hand just that would help to perform slower shutter speeds without moving parts while a mechanical shutter is involved for faster exposures.


----------



## mb66energy (Dec 4, 2016)

Jopa said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I have a dream ...
> ...



I agree but wouldn't say "a 600g 85mm lens is a sign of not-so-good LENS" - I "only" have and use the EF 2.0/100. Optically a dinosaur but 85...135mm are a very "kind" range for lens designers: retrofocus isn't necessary, CA isn't that problematic (except LOCA at high apertures). Start with the EF 2.0/100 and try to fiddle around with newer glass types including organic compounds/coatings/aspherical lenses. It should be possible to add 50g to the current lens (460g) to reduce LOCA and increase the contrast at f/2.0. Add 100g for IS if you find a good optical formula which allows use of an existing lens group for IS. Her you are: 610g for an improved EF 2.0/100 which is still a stunning lens optically, mechanically and size wise! Give it a price tag of 800 EUR (twice the price of the existing version) - and Canon should be fine, users of the lens too.

Maybe it is a market decision that only large lenses can be labeled with 1.5k ... 4k $/EUR. An example for a similar development (speaking only for germany: The same "illness" leads to larger and heavier cars which keep prices high but efforts to reduce fuel efficiency low. O.k. fuel efficiency has been increased, but a 2 ton car needs twice the energy to accelerate to 50 km/h compared to a 1 ton car.


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## davidcl0nel (Dec 4, 2016)

The 35 II is also very very expensive and "light" - this one has an IS (really?... Not the first CR3 which isn't true) - so its unique on the market and can be easily above 2000€ also.
The shrinking market will also be more and more an issue, I think all replacements wll be much more expensive... development costs divided by the expected sales... the current ones can sold for the the manufacturing cost + profit without extra evelopment costs.


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## leethecam (Dec 4, 2016)

I have and love my 85L 1.2

However it does exhibit an annoying quirk, (which Canon confirmed is not a fault and their test lens exhibited similar, albeit slightly less at the cost of less sharpness...)

i need to hve different MF settings from F1.2 through to F4, (after which is is quite stable).

It's not a big deal as I only use this lens in the studio and I have a note of 4 different MF settings taped to the lens hood so I can adjust when I change aperture.

It would be great if the new lens handled this better.


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## vscd (Dec 4, 2016)

leethecam said:


> i need to hve different MF settings from F1.2 through to F4, (after which is is quite stable).



Can you specify this a little more? Do you mean the written distances on the display don't match the real distances? Why don't you use autofocus?


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## AvTvM (Dec 4, 2016)

maybe he is talking about focus shift? focus changes somewhat with aperture. 

Using manual focus I see no issue there. I look thru the viewfinder and turn the ring until the image is sharp where I want it. Same in Live View on Display - for critical focus using 5x and 10x magnifying view. When I change aperture, I need to check and make sure, focus is still perfect. So what, no big deal, at lest not in stills photography. In AF mode it is a problem, because all Canon EOS only autofocus with lens wide open. There is no way to AF at working aperture. 

And distances printed on lens are useless and irrelevant in this respect anyways.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 4, 2016)

vscd said:


> leethecam said:
> 
> 
> > i need to hve different MF settings from F1.2 through to F4, (after which is is quite stable).
> ...



I assume he's talking about needing different AFMA settings based on aperture, due to (as AvTvM states) focus shift. It's a known issue with the 50L, I haven't heard of that as a major issue with the 85L, and I haven't experienced it with my copy.


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## AvTvM (Dec 4, 2016)

confusing thing is, he talks about MF, which i assumed to stand for "Manual Focus".

AFMA values are only needed for Autofocus.

maybe he is referring to video - changing aperture while recording ... ?


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 5, 2016)

"MF settings" = microfocus adjustment settings, I think. But I suppose we could speculate all night...


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## leethecam (Dec 5, 2016)

To end the confusion - I meant Micro Focus. (Sorry. On another forum we all use MF as shorthand for that, so it carried across here).

When I talked with Canon they admitted there is an aperture issue here with microfocus. Mine is worse than their test copy, but my less is sharper, (like, it's REALLY sharp...) They say it can be an issue with any large aperture prime lens to more or less extents.


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## vscd (Dec 5, 2016)

leethecam said:


> To end the confusion - I meant Micro Focus. (Sorry. On another forum we all use MF as shorthand for that, so it carried across here).
> 
> When I talked with Canon they admitted there is an aperture issue here with microfocus. Mine is worse than their test copy, but my less is sharper, (like, it's REALLY sharp...) They say it can be an issue with any large aperture prime lens to more or less extents.



I'm curious... can't you focus stopped down? Never tried, but should work (with some Exposurecompensation if needed.


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## AvTvM (Dec 5, 2016)

ah, thanks for clarification. i was used to acronym AFMA for af microfocus adjustments.

i have no firsthand experience with 85/1.2, but focus shift appears to be present to some degree in many wide aperture lenses, especially visible on short focus distances. BUT ... the way to avoid/lessen focus shift issues in lens design seems to be "floating element" design and to my knowledge, both EF 85/1.2 and 50/1.2 are floating element designs ... and yet there are many reports re. focus shift with 50/1.2, but not many re. 85/1.2 II !?

Zeiss states with respect to their (manual focus only) ZE 85/1.4:

"Fast lenses of this optical design (without floating elements) shift the focus due to spherical aberration when the f-stop is changed. This phenomenon is especially visible on closer object distances and cannot be influenced. The AF system of most camera models does not respect those characteristics of a lens. The focus is measured and confirmed by the focus indicator as if the lens has been stopped down to f/5.6.

source: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Zeiss-85mm-f-1.4-ZE-Planar-Lens-Review.aspx


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## AvTvM (Dec 5, 2016)

vscd said:


> I'm curious... can't you focus stopped down? Never tried, but should work (with some Exposurecompensation if needed.



using manual focus: yes
in autofocus: no
Canon EOS bodies will always use wide open aperture in autofocus mode ... and EF lenses have no aperture ring to manually set aperture ...


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## YuengLinger (Dec 5, 2016)

leethecam said:


> To end the confusion - I meant Micro Focus. (Sorry. On another forum we all use MF as shorthand for that, so it carried across here).
> 
> When I talked with Canon they admitted there is an aperture issue here with microfocus. Mine is worse than their test copy, but my less is sharper, (like, it's REALLY sharp...) They say it can be an issue with any large aperture prime lens to more or less extents.



Which other forum uses MF for AFMA???

The rest of the photography world, textbooks, Photoshop books, user manuals for lenses and bodies, youtube videos, Kelby and Linda.com videos...MF is manual focus.


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## infared (Dec 5, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> vscd said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious... can't you focus stopped down? Never tried, but should work (with some Exposurecompensation if needed.
> ...



With a modern Canon EF AF lens...on a Canon "mirrored" camera the aperture in the lens remains open to its widest aperture during MF or AF. That is so that you can see clearly at the brightest opening, see to compose and see the focus chosen (AF) or to see the point of focus that you create (MF).
This is an "automatic' aperture" lens. It keeps the aperture open and it closes down to your actual setting only at the moment of exposure. You can push in you DOF preview button in MF or AF mode to close does the lens aperture see your actual depth of field at any time.
Some modern MF lenses have electrical contacts and have automatic aperture and are compatible with your camera system. Such as Zeiss. They make the lens with your camera mount and include the electronics so that you have the benefit of auto aperture and the use of your DOF preview button.. Vintage adapted lenses and some "modern" 3rd-party lenses have no electrical contacts for your camera, but can be mounted and used on your camera and therefore you are n "full" manual mode. When you close down the aperture on the lens your view darkens (less light through the lens), and your DOF increases...but it gets very difficult to see and/or pick a point of focus. These are "non-automatic"(or "fully" manual), lenses. Theses lenses are difficult to work with at smaller apertures on a DSLR with the mirror down. If you put the camera in live-view, the mirror is up and the camera sensor can brighten the scene so that you can see what you are doing, but only on the rear screen, as you are directly seeing the feed from the sensor. . You cannot get a brighter view through the viewfinder.
Mirrorless cameras excel with vintage and MF lenses with no electrical contacts as you are looking in a viewfinder (and/or the rear LCD), that is a view of the actual sensor and it automatically can brighten the image for you to "see" to compose and focus.
It gets complicated with all the choices out there. LOL!


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## AvTvM (Dec 5, 2016)

infared said:


> This is an "automatic' aperture" lens. It keeps the aperture open and it closes down to your actual setting only at the moment of exposure. You can push in you DOF preview button in MF or AF mode to close does the lens aperture *see *your actual depth of field at any time.



"*see*" - yes. 
But to my knowledge the camera will still AF with fully open aperture, no matter whether DOF preview button is pressed or not. 

The only workaround I know of for the entire problem of focus shift on Canon cameras with EF lenses is using (different) AFMA settings at different apertures. Which is, what the guy asking seems to be doing. Of course it is not really an "elegant" solution in the field.


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## infared (Dec 5, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> infared said:
> 
> 
> > This is an "automatic' aperture" lens. It keeps the aperture open and it closes down to your actual setting only at the moment of exposure. You can push in you DOF preview button in MF or AF mode to close does the lens aperture *see *your actual depth of field at any time.
> ...



Quite honestly, I did not know that focus point could "shift" due to aperture change???
Is that a quirk of the mechanics of this particular lens? ...or is it a universal truth (physics) for all lenses?


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 5, 2016)

infared said:


> You cannot get a brighter view through the viewfinder.



Actually, with lenses faster than f/2.8, you _can_ get a brighter viewfinder by swapping out the stock focusing screen. A Super Precision Matte screen will show you the actual brightness and DoF of a fast prime, whereas the stock screen limits you to the brightness and DoF of ~f/2.8. The trade off is that slower lenses (f/5.6) will be darker with the precision matte screen than the stock screen.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 5, 2016)

infared said:


> Quite honestly, I did not know that focus point could "shift" due to aperture change???
> Is that a quirk of the mechanics of this particular lens? ...or is it a universal truth (physics) for all lenses?



https://photographylife.com/what-is-focus-shift


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## jeffa4444 (Dec 5, 2016)

First the new 35mm f1.4 now a 85mm 1.4. These will be followed by a 24mm, 50mm and possibly a 135mm all at f1.4, why? 

As Cine lenses they would all be T1.5 and consistent and maybe they will also throw in an 18mm f1.4 / T1.5 and form part of a new set for the flagship C700 with a full -frame / Vistavision sensor.


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## tron (Dec 5, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> First the new 35mm f1.4 now a 85mm 1.4. These will be followed by a 24mm, 50mm and possibly a 135mm all at f1.4, why?
> 
> As Cine lenses they would all be T1.5 and consistent and maybe they will also throw in an 18mm f1.4 / T1.5 and form part of a new set for the flagship C700 with a full -frame / Vistavision sensor.


Hmmm if this means they will make also an EF 18mm f/1.4L then I am all in since it will be a super astro lens


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## AvTvM (Dec 5, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> First the new 35mm f1.4 now a 85mm 1.4. These will be followed by a 24mm, 50mm and possibly a 135mm all at f1.4, why?



* 24/1.4 II - done, will not be replaced any time soon. What for?
* 35/1.4 II - done
* 50/1.4 IS - way overdue
* 85/1.4 IS - coming
* 100/2.0 IS - would be really nice! 
* 135/1.4 IS - can't see them making one of those 

why? Because they want to get rid of f/1.2 lenses. Not enough profit in them. If they get away charging 80% of f/1.2 price for a much lower cost f/1.4 ... there you got the "why".


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## tron (Dec 5, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > First the new 35mm f1.4 now a 85mm 1.4. These will be followed by a 24mm, 50mm and possibly a 135mm all at f1.4, why?
> ...


For worst coma ever...


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## vscd (Dec 8, 2016)

infared said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > vscd said:
> ...



That's known to us, I think. My question was if you're able to focus while holding down the DOF-Preview button. If it's not working you could stop down the lens and release the bajonett s bit, keeping the camera the aperture down without electronic contacts --> there you have your manual lens.

Greetings


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## chrysoberyl (Dec 8, 2016)

tron said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > jeffa4444 said:
> ...



Agreed. Plus the large vignette.


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## ZachOly (Jan 7, 2017)

What's the best guess for an announcement date?


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## tron (Jan 7, 2017)

ZachOly said:


> What's the best guess for an announcement date?


Somewhere between Jan 1st and Dec 31st ;D

P.S 2017-2097 ;D ;D


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## pokerz (Jan 9, 2017)

I bet 1000 more for an IS, sounds great and fair


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## jeffa4444 (Jan 10, 2017)

Hjalmarg1 said:


> mitchel2002 said:
> 
> 
> > cellomaster27 said:
> ...


I would definitely be in the market for the 85mm f1.4L IS but not at the expense of my 100mm f2.8L Macro. That lens is great for insects on plants & distance to get enough light, plus its a super sharp 100mm regular lens. Different tools for different jobs.


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## darynthe (Feb 21, 2017)

Ok, I am scared. That lens looks a lot like the 1.2. Are they discontinuing it? No!!! :'(
If my copy breaks I assume the price for used ones will sky rocket. I will have to be extra super careful with it now. The stuff of nightmares. I am just... it's the only lens I use.


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## YuengLinger (Feb 21, 2017)

darynthe said:


> Ok, I am scared. That lens looks a lot like the 1.2. Are they discontinuing it? No!!! :'(
> If my copy breaks I assume the price for used ones will sky rocket. I will have to be extra super careful with it now. The stuff of nightmares. I am just... it's the only lens I use.



Buy a couple now as backups. Use them once in a while to prevent lens atrophy. Should be good as long as the ef mount...

I'm guessing Canon will service them for another decade.

And maybe you'll like the never version better! Dam those tears, dude/tte.


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## Viggo (Feb 22, 2017)

jeffa4444 said:


> Hjalmarg1 said:
> 
> 
> > mitchel2002 said:
> ...



Have a thorough look at the Zeiss 100 f2.0, a full stop brighter than your 100 L and does 1:2 mag ratio and is EPIC image quality. I've thought selling mine since it's manual focus only, but there is nothing good to replace it with, and when I try it "for one last time" it's just too good to get rid of.


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## Shane1.4 (Mar 3, 2017)

Any news on this??? Would love to have one in my hands in the new few months once weddings start up again...


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## hubie (Mar 3, 2017)

I am also eager to hear more "news" about this. Two of my friends are gonna marry this year... this lens, although I expect it to be overpriced for me, could end up in my bag as well as a fullframe camera, my first one .


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## vscd (Mar 22, 2017)

Viggo said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > Hjalmarg1 said:
> ...



Guess why your Zeiss 100 f2.0 is one stop brighter than a 100L... because it offers no real 1:1 ratio. If it would off a real 1:1 is would be at a very low T-Stop (add a distancering to try out). In fact the Canon 100L 2.8 IS is way better than the Zeiss. It offers autofocus, stabilization and a full 1:1 Magnification for a lower price. I like Zeiss, but I would never take the old 100f2 over a 100L...


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## Viggo (Mar 22, 2017)

vscd said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > jeffa4444 said:
> ...



If you're always shooting 1:1, or a lot, sure! But for everything else, for example portraits, the Zeiss looks much nicer, the microcontrast and colors are much nicer with the Zeiss, and stop it down to 2.8 and there's hardly a contest. It's a reason they skipped the makroplanar name with the Milvus, people see it as a poor macrolens instead of one of the most epic "everything"-lens and portrait lens without a mfd.


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## mikekx102 (Mar 27, 2017)

This is a lens I'm checking Canon Rumors for daily. I can't wait for it to get released. I do find it interesting that they are moving from f1.2 to f1.4 in this lens. But in the 50mm, they are looking at an f1.0 design. Perhaps because it is a 50mm and (probably) won't have IS, it just works better with a larger aperture.

Is there any new info on an announcement date?


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## ntt2007 (Jun 17, 2017)

June 2017 is nearly end but no infor about releasing day for this lens. I hope we can hear something after the 6d2 announcement.


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## Ozarker (Jun 21, 2017)

Bueller, Bueller, Bueller...


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## LonelyBoy (Jul 3, 2017)

Ain't nobody here but us crickets.


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## Maiaibing (Jul 4, 2017)

AvTvM said:


> Zeiss states with respect to their (manual focus only) ZE 85/1.4:
> 
> "Fast lenses of this optical design (without floating elements) shift the focus due to spherical aberration when the f-stop is changed. This phenomenon is especially visible on closer object distances and cannot be influenced. The AF system of most camera models does not respect those characteristics of a lens. The focus is measured and confirmed by the focus indicator as if the lens has been stopped down to f/5.6.


85L has a floating element to counter the focus shift. So does the 35L. Its only the 50L that does not (still no focus shift, when you shoot a lens wide open).


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