# APS-C Camera with an L Lens as a Kit



## Dave (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm completley torn... 

Actually I want a 7D (or successor), but I really like the 24-105L. But the problem is, if I buy a 7D body and a 24-105 seperately I'll pay (at Amazon) 2345 EUR. This is quite a lot. The problem is, that the 5D II Kit with the 24-105 is just 2555 EUR. Thats just 210 Euros more. 
I never wanted a full frame camera... but well... just about 200 bucks more fÃ¼r a fullframe body... this is hard and kind of frustrating...
The same problem comes if you want a 60D with a 15-85...

Why aren't there more different Kits?


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## PeterJ (Sep 11, 2011)

I can understand why they don't want too many variants, it would be extra stock codes for all the suppliers to carry and at the end of the day the kits are really only a starting point, you could have hundreds of kit options and many would still want something else.

The pricing above looks a little odd to me and maybe you can find a better deal on the 7D + 24-105. I'm in Australia but checking at the place I normally buy gear and converting the currency a 5D kit is 2671 Euro, not much different to above, but a 7D + 24-105 is only 2095 Euro.


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## AG (Sep 11, 2011)

There is also the other thing that seems to be over looked here.

With the full frame body the lens is 24 - 105, that parts easy enough to grasp, but on the 7D or 60D or 600D where you would have a 1.6 crop that will change the 24mm into 38.4mm, and the 105mm into 168mm.
That changes the whole dynamic of the lens.

The reason i mention this is because a lot of people that buy these crop cameras usually buy either the stock crop lenses to suit it aka the bundles or they understand that a body and a lens are 2 separate items and you can chop and change bodies as much as you need too as long as you have glass (in this case L lenses) that can transfer between the 2 formats.
Unfortunately these people are few and far between when it comes to main consumers of the sub $2K camera market.

On saying all that i don't understand why you wouldn't want a 5D2 if you can get it for not much more? unless you were needing the crop for a specific reason or needed the 720p/60 video of the 7D.


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## ecka (Sep 11, 2011)

Reasons to buy 5D2 over 7D:
better details
better high ISO
better fit with L zooms

Reasons to buy 7D over 5D2:
better AF system
better metering system
more fps
wireless flash control
cheaper

I'm not including the 1.6 crop factor for more reach, because 5D2 used with 1.4TC and 1 stop higher ISO would still give you better IQ. The choice is yours.


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## dr croubie (Sep 11, 2011)

I'll presume you've done your research and just want a 7D + 24-105 for your use (although personally i got the 15-85).

at my favourite european shop:
24-105 â‚¬1049
7D body â‚¬1329
5D2 body â‚¬1895
7D + 15-85 â‚¬1949
7D + 24-105 â‚¬2278
5D2 + 24-105 â‚¬2595
5D2 + 24-70 â‚¬2955 (for comparison)


hmmm, wow. i'd get the 5D+24-105L as well for those prices. 7D kit is only a hundred euro less than the parts, the 5D2 kit is 450 less than the sum of its parts.
of course, that's assuming noone here convinces you to get the 15-85 or 17-55 instead...


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## Dave (Sep 11, 2011)

> There is also the other thing that seems to be over looked here.


No, I'm aware of that. I'd love to take a 15-85. But I want to keep my lenses flexible. I just don't wanna buy an EFS lense, even with a crop cam. I don't want to regret buying a lense, if I go full frame one time... 

One major reason is the price... The other thing are the much better video options of the 7D. This is why I'm wating on the 5D MkIII, especially since I really wan't to have a flip screen - the problem here is, that the MkIII probably will be much more expensive than the MK II is now :-(


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## elflord (Sep 11, 2011)

> One major reason is the price... The other thing are the much better video options of the 7D. This is why I'm wating on the 5D MkIII, especially since I really wan't to have a flip screen - the problem here is, that the MkIII probably will be much more expensive than the MK II is now :-(



What are your reasons for wanting full frame ? 

Anyway, I'd say buy what goes with the camera you're getting now, and sell the EF-S lenses when you upgrade. Resale value is quite good for the higher end Canon lenses, so if you think of it as a long term rental it's not a bad deal.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2011)

A 'kit lens' bundled with a body always covers the 'general purpose' range, meaning at least moderate wide angle to short telephoto. That's why you won't see an APS-C kit with the 24-105mm - 24mm on APS-C is 'normal', not wide angle. 



Dave said:


> No, I'm aware of that. I'd love to take a 15-85. But I want to keep my lenses flexible. I just don't wanna buy an EFS lense, even with a crop cam. I don't want to regret buying a lense, if I go full frame one time...



Personally, I don't get the idea of buying a lens that's suboptimal for the camera you have, and optimal for a camera you don't have, but *might* get, someday. It's like getting your kid hiking boots two sizes bigger than their feet - sure, they'll grow into them - but there will be a lot of blisters first. 

On the same APS-C body, both the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS and the EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS outperform the 24-105mm f/4L IS. The only real rationale I can see for the 24-105mm is if you have a 7D and require weather sealing. Even so, you'd want either an EF-S 10-22mm, one of the EF-S zooms listed above, or an equivalent, to cover the wide end. I find that the 24-105mm focal range on my 7D works decently outdoors (as long as I'm not trying to shoot wide landscapes), and not well at all indoors. On the 5DII, on the other hand, the 24-105mm focal range is excellent for general purpose use. 

The high-end EF-S lenses hold their value quite well - for example, after buying a new EF-S 10-22mm and using it for about a year, I got a 5DII and 16-35mm II, so I sold the EF-S UWA zoom - for $50 less than I paid for it (and that was before the prices jumped earlier this year - today, I could have sold it for a profit). 

I'd really recommend considering the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS or the EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS, and if you go full frame someday, sell it.


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## Eagle Eye (Sep 11, 2011)

As far as resale value on lenses, I can tell you from personal experience that if you hold on to a lens for a few years, you can get almost all of your money back. In 2005, I purchased a EF 24-70mm f/2.8L, a EF 70-200mm f/4L, a EF 50mm f/1.4, and a EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro, all new from Amazon. In 2010, I sold all four lenses on Craigslist for the exact same price I paid for them. They were all in very good shape, though the two L's had both been fixed by Canon after an unfortunate five foot fall onto pavement for both of them. The bottom line is lenses don't really wear and Canon keeps increasing the cost of new lenses. I purchased a 50mm 1.2L last fall and fully expect to be able to sell it in a few years for the original purchase price. Bottom line, the EF-S 15-85 seems like an excellent lens (haven't used it), will likely not have an update in the next five years, and you'll probably be able to make back almost all your money when you choose to sell.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 11, 2011)

I bought a 24-105mm L along with my 17-55mm for my 40D, knowing the 5D MK II was coming in 3 or 4 months. (I paid $700 for a new kit lens) The 24-105mm L indeed did perform well on the 40D, but it was not wide enough for a walk around lens, so I had to carry my 17-55 and change them out.

I bought the 5D MK II the day it was announced, and it is perfect for the 24-105mm L. Recently, I acquired a 7D as a second body, and bought a 15-85mm zoom with it. That is a much handier walk around lens for outdoor use in good light.

Unfortunately, we often have to make compromises. I have a series of prime lenses for indoor low light use, so the rather slow 15-85mm doesn't get indoor use unless I have supplemental lighting like I do in my product photography studio.


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## AJ (Sep 11, 2011)

I suggest deciding on a format now and sticking with it. Either get 5D2 plus 24-105, or 7D plus 15-85.


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## Dave (Sep 13, 2011)

AJ said:


> I suggest deciding on a format now and sticking with it. Either get 5D2 plus 24-105, or 7D plus 15-85.



Yop, you're right... The problem is: The needs and requirements for new "toys" are growing fast if you surfing the net and watching videos... Actually the only thing I'm missing at a 7D or the 5D is a flip screen...

Probably I'll just wait until the next announcment from Canon... Either the 7D2 or the 5D3.


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## chrisdeckard (Sep 13, 2011)

I bought my 24-105 when I just had a Rebel XS. It was well worth the money, and it works great on a crop body. You do lost the wide angle, but for a walk around, or for many events it offers a lot of flexibility. My only problem with it is it's slow at f/4. It may not be the right lens on the right camera, but it does offer a lot in one package. I now use it on a 7D and 60D, and I'm sure I'll love it even more when we can finally get a full frame camera.

To be honest, look at the used lens market. You'll find many 24-105s out there, and it'll be easy to pick one up for a little less than a new one. That may make the difference between what you've found more enticing.

If it was a decision of $200-$300 (or the equivalent in euro) for me, I'd get the 5D2 w/lens. Again, look at the used market, you will find some great deals.

I'll agree with others, the 24mm on a crop body is too normal for many indoor situations, but it is an extremely flexible lens on either size sensor, and is probably one of the best lenses for the money. If you're shooting indoors though, go for a 24-70 f/2.8, you will be much happier.


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## Dave (Sep 13, 2011)

> but it is an extremely flexible lens on either size sensor, and is probably one of the best lenses for the mone


Yes, I thought so too. I had the 24-105 on my 350D and I think it was a great standard lense even for a crop body - at least outdoors.



> To be honest, look at the used lens market. You'll find many 24-105s out there


The "problem" is: I'm self-employed and I buy cameras & equipment via my company. And in Germany you don't need to pay VAT as a company if the VAT (in Germany 19%) is declared on the invoice.

So if a lense costs 1200 Buck (tax included) I pay actually just about 1000 Euros... The problem is: If you buy it used, you normaly get no invoice with decalred VAT. And in most of the time the used price is about 20% - 30% off the normal sales price.

I'd love to have the 15-85 but I don't understand why this is just an EF-S mount. I'm still not sure if I'll go to crop or fullframe - or even both (in a longer term). So I just don't want to buy no EF-S lenses since I want to stay flexible concerning the mount.

regards, Dave


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## AJ (Sep 13, 2011)

Then how do you know if you're going to stick to full-frame? Maybe full-frame won't be good enough for you at some point in the future, and maybe you'll upgrade to medium format someday. Shouldn't you be buying medium format lenses, to be used with adapters, just in case?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. The point is, buying a lens is not like marriage, forever till death do us part. Lenses can be sold just as easily as they are bought.

15-85 is apsc-only because it can't project a 15 mm ultrawide image on a full-frame sensor. Restricting the imaging circle has its design advantages, and makes a high-performance 6x zoom possible.


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## Stuart (Sep 13, 2011)

Get the 60D, mine almost never has anything other than the 24-105mm lens, you get the flip screen too.
or the 7D for fast frame rates.


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## 7enderbender (Sep 13, 2011)

Dave said:


> I'm completley torn...
> 
> Actually I want a 7D (or successor), but I really like the 24-105L. But the problem is, if I buy a 7D body and a 24-105 seperately I'll pay (at Amazon) 2345 EUR. This is quite a lot. The problem is, that the 5D II Kit with the 24-105 is just 2555 EUR. Thats just 210 Euros more.
> I never wanted a full frame camera... but well... just about 200 bucks more fÃ¼r a fullframe body... this is hard and kind of frustrating...
> ...



This exactly what I point out to people when the subject 7D vs 5DII comes up. It's what I figured when I was in the market for my first digital SLR last year. Only that I wanted "full frame" anyway all along which is why I waited so long to transition from film.

But in all fairness, the market is already pretty spaced out within three main SLR segments: entry level kits, mid range kits and anything that appeals to serious enthusiasts and pros willing to shell out some serious cash. I looked at the 7D briefly. The problem was that not only did I really want a 5DII but also the kit lens did not appeal to me at all. And going "L" on these crop bodies is also somewhat questionable for general photography because you'll miss out at the wide end or pay even more extra. Not that a 7D with, say a 24-70, 24-105 or 16-35 wouldn't go a long way. But you already did the math...So unless you care mostly about the long end then it makes limited sense to most people to save 300 or 400 bucks that you'll spend elsewhere.

Just my take though.


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## 7enderbender (Sep 13, 2011)

Dave said:


> AJ said:
> 
> 
> > I suggest deciding on a format now and sticking with it. Either get 5D2 plus 24-105, or 7D plus 15-85.
> ...



Just curious: what are you using now? And what are you intending to use the swivel screen for? To me this is a pretty useless feature that I hope Canon will never introduce to the 5 or 1 series (or equivalent). Another part that breaks without any normal use value. It's an SLR for a reason. "Live view" is one of those things that are really meant for very special applications. Again, just my view.


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## AJ (Sep 13, 2011)

There are a few 60D plus 15-85 kits out there, if you shop around a little. You may be able to save some dough.

e.g. here in my city
https://www.thecamerastore.com/products/kits/canon/canon-eos-60d-15-85mm-f35-56-usm


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## Dave (Sep 13, 2011)

> Just curious: what are you using now?


People always say (I also do ;-): "Don't panic. Your current cam won't stop taking pictures, right now" if they are whining about new cameras... But well my camera almost DOES. I have 350D. I'm using it half private and half for my job (flyers, marketing product photography etc.) I often come to the limits of the cam...

For that purpose APS-C would be quite enough, but a customers asked me if Icould do a small image film of their company additionaly I want to start a professional video blog. And well... for that purpose a full frame cam would be kind of nice... kind of VERY nice  

Especially at a project where you are recording yourself, a flip screen is a everything else but not "useless".



> Get the 60D


The problem is that I made a big mistake! I went to the shop and took the 7D in my hand... The next mistake I made was looking through the view finder (man! The AF of the 7D is REALLY cool, the 100% VF also)


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## dr croubie (Sep 14, 2011)

7enderbender said:


> Dave said:
> 
> 
> > AJ said:
> ...



Ditto, keep the easily-broken bits out of the pro bodies. If the 7D mk2 has a swivel screen, i'm keeping my mk1 (although i'm also another one of those "i'll move to FF when the 5d3 comes out" people).

Some times (for macro, for example) i would really really love a swivel screen because of the angles. but i'd rather invest in an external battery-powered hdmi-input screen (if one exists) or cart my laptop around, rather than lose waterproofing and ruggedness of my 7D...


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## 7enderbender (Sep 14, 2011)

Dave said:


> > Just curious: what are you using now?
> 
> 
> People always say (I also do ;-): "Don't panic. Your current cam won't stop taking pictures, right now" if they are whining about new cameras... But well my camera almost DOES. I have 350D. I'm using it half private and half for my job (flyers, marketing product photography etc.) I often come to the limits of the cam...
> ...




Dave,

All of that makes perfect sense. If your current crop camera serves you well artistically and professionally I see no reason to switch to a different format. Given your specific need for this type of video application the 60D seems like a good choice.

But here is my thought - and take it with a grain of salt because I have different applications and rarely ever do anything that resembles professional work in those areas. I always enjoyed photography and if there sometimes is something that is somewhat "professional" it's more along the lines of a "vanity business". I really don't enjoy video production so it's just family stuff for me and very rarely helping out in a pinch. Hence, I have never even tried the video capabilities of my 5DII and rather rely on my little DV camera. And when I recently helped my wife with a work project that included interviewing people I actually took a pro video camera from a local studio with me. That was way easier than trying to figure out how to use my 5DII and hook it up to decent audio equipment etc.

What I'm saying is that, yes, the new EOS cameras are being used by professional and enthusiast video folks because of the large sensors, low light capability and DOF options. But it is also pretty difficult and in the end expensive to do this right.

If I did this for money I'd have each tool fitting each need. Get the 7D or 5DII (or whatever) that you like for stills and get a decent used video cam for the other stuff. Again, my 5c based on my limited and unique experience.


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