# Cheap manual flash to use for fill lighting...



## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

so I have been side lighting photos of my infant daughter using a 580 exii, an umbrella, and a yongnuo 622c... and even though I can't access all the ettl features immediately (I'm pretty sure it is operator error), I think the shadows from being side lit aren't exactly what I'm looking for. 

so I wasn't too get a cheap manual flash that I can couple with my rouge flash bender to add some fill flash or maybe even side lit fromtheother side using a wire that attached to the hot shoe.

I was thinking about one of the newer brand flashes for 40 bucks, but once I nut it it will only be worth twenty bucks if I sell it. I hate losing money on gear... it drives me nuts. so I was thinking, maybe I should buy something like a 430 ex ii which will retain its value, but 200 v 40 seems like a bad use of resources. 

I see really old manual speed lites on craigslist, but the head doesn't articulate backwards... 

so the question is... what is the right price to pay for a manual flash that will only be used inside the home for fill light.


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## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

it just occurred to me that I like to shoot at f 1.8 so I use high speed sync to raise my shutter speed so it is properly exposed... and a cheap manual flash won't hss, so that won't work... unless I invest in a nd filter.


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## Skirball (Sep 19, 2013)

What's the right price to pay? As cheap as possible? Kind of a subjective question. Personally I'd go for the cheapo, if I already had a decent flash like the 580. In fact, that's exactly what I did when I had just a 580. But many would argue that you should get a 600. You're really worrying about resale value of a $40 flash? 

I don't know much about Newer, but Yongnuo has a variety of flashes from full manual no zoom, to their 580 knockoff. Choose the features you want and grab one. I have one of the ultra basic models, I usually just use it to light backgrounds or as a hair light (snooted). It works fine, it cost me next to nothing, and if I need more features I just use one of my other flashes.

Also a personal preference, but with something as sedentary as an infant I'd definitely be shooting manual anyway.

In the mean time: with a subject as small, and as stationary as an infant you should be able to use a reflector quite successfully for fill light.


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## Skirball (Sep 19, 2013)

I don't understand where the ND filter comes in.


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## 7enderbender (Sep 19, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> so I have been side lighting photos of my infant daughter using a 580 exii, an umbrella, and a yongnuo 622c... and even though I can't access all the ettl features immediately (I'm pretty sure it is operator error), I think the shadows from being side lit aren't exactly what I'm looking for.
> 
> so I wasn't too get a cheap manual flash that I can couple with my rouge flash bender to add some fill flash or maybe even side lit fromtheother side using a wire that attached to the hot shoe.
> 
> ...




Here's my take (based on some experience and experimentation with Speedlites - something I was completely new to not even 3 years ago). It's always great to have options. Having ETTL and Hi Speed Sync can be very beneficial. You may find that setting things manually is preferable. But even then it's nice to be able to control things via the camera menu. So there's you're answer if another Canon flash or fully compatible third party (such as Metz) is better than a cheap manual flash that doesn't support that nor Hi Speed sync for those saturated outdoor shoots in bright daylight.

BUT: if the goal is just to have nice fill I would start with adding a reflector to your existing setup. That usually works really well even with just one flash.

There is some good reading material available on the web and in books (e.g. Sil Arena's books or the basics covered on http://strobist.blogspot.com/ )


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## RGF (Sep 19, 2013)

as far as I know, the cheap flashes for canon are manual only. No E-ttl. YOu will need to set the power down - trial and error.


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## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

Skirball said:


> You're really worrying about resale value of a $40 flash?


 worry about the pennies and soon you won't have any... you'll have dollars.


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## bvukich (Sep 19, 2013)

Skirball said:


> I don't understand where the ND filter comes in.



He wants to shoot his 85/1.8 wide open. To keep the shutter speed below xsync, in many situations, he'd need an ND filter to achieve this.


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## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

bvukich said:


> Skirball said:
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> > I don't understand where the ND filter comes in.
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that's exactly it... so the sync speed for the mkiii is 1/200 of a second... I was shooting at 1/2500 the other day, so I think I would need a 16x nd filter.. or somewhere close to get to 1/200. 

so maybe I just buy a 430 ii. Damn it.


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## Rienzphotoz (Sep 19, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> so I wasn't too get a cheap manual flash that I can couple with my rouge flash bender to add some fill flash or maybe even side lit fromtheother side using a wire that attached to the hot shoe.


Try this ... costs only $43 http://yn.eachshot.com/product/yongnuo-yn-460-yn460-flash-speedlight-for_canon/
OR if you are willing to pay another $30 more, you can get one with a metal hot shoe, like this one http://yn.eachshot.com/product/yongnuo-yn560iii-yn-560-iii-ultra-long-range-wireless-flash-speedlite_canon/

Happy shopping


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## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

for the record, I hate typing on my phone. it is amazing y'all could make sense of the gibberish.


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## Skirball (Sep 19, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> bvukich said:
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Ok. You mentioned umbrellas, infants and sidelighting with a strobe and a modifier... I assumed you were in an indoors studio situation.


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## Skirball (Sep 19, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> for the record, I hate typing on my phone. it is amazing y'all could make sense of the gibberish.



It's not easy.


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## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

Skirball said:


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it is the living room, but the wife reneged on her agreement, so now it is called the billiard room out of spite.


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## Skirball (Sep 19, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> Skirball said:
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I feel your pain. I just moved all my camera equipment out of my ‘studio’ to put a crib in it.

So you’re shooting indoors and still pulling 1/2500? If you have (presumably sun) light that bright in your “studio” then why aren’t you using your 580 for fill light?


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## kentandersen (Sep 19, 2013)

youngnou is the way to go.

Even the cheapest brings excelent results. You can manualy adjust the amount of light even on the cheapest.

I have one, and it is perfect for most situation.


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## dexstrose (Sep 19, 2013)

You mention you didn't like the shadows. Did you play around with the light moving it closer so the light would wrap around Your daughter to get rid of unwanted shadows? 

I would also try a reflector before jumping in to get another light. You can pickup a cheap 42" 5 in one for about 18 bucks at amazon.


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## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

Skirball said:


> jdramirez said:
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it isn't that bright in the room... bright enough to get 1/250, due, but I want some of the shadows from the side lightning. I'm bored taking the same photo of my new born... this is her sleeping... and here and is sleeping... oh and this one of her sleeping is my favorite.


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## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

dexstrose said:


> You mention you didn't like the shadows. Did you play around with the light moving it closer so the light would wrap around Your daughter to get rid of unwanted shadows?
> 
> I would also try a reflector before jumping in to get another light. You can pickup a cheap 42" 5 in one for about 18 bucks at amazon.



I have such a limited amount of time to play with light source distances. two hours seems like a ton of time, but not really....


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## Skirball (Sep 19, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> dexstrose said:
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> > You mention you didn't like the shadows. Did you play around with the light moving it closer so the light would wrap around Your daughter to get rid of unwanted shadows?
> ...



If two hours seems like a ton of time then getting more lights is not the answer.


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## verysimplejason (Sep 19, 2013)

YN 560 II or III. I had one I use as my primary flash. Very cheap but very powerful. It's also easy to use. I've used one in a concert of my daughter and it can almost illuminate the whole stage. It's also very flexible that I can easily use it for macro shooting.


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## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

Skirball said:


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In baby time, it is like fifteen minutes...


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## dexstrose (Sep 19, 2013)

Maybe this could be helpful before buying another light. Gives you a basic of light modifiers. Or look for one on the inverse square law. 

http://www.adorama.com/alc/0013691/article/Light-Modifiers-AdoramaTV


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## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

dexstrose said:


> Maybe this could be helpful before buying another light. Gives you a basic of light modifiers. Or look for one on the inverse square law.
> 
> http://www.adorama.com/alc/0013691/article/Light-Modifiers-AdoramaTV



I saw something similar recently... I thought it was interesting but I don't see myself getting the 72 inch umbrella anytime soon. I'll give it a look when I'm not at work.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 19, 2013)

Window light/ambient with or without reflectors is the easiest and cheapest way to lower contrast.

The Canon 550EX secondhand is the best bang for the buck with regards HSS and unbreakable full Canon compatible bargain flashes. Get one off eBay for under $150 and sell it next year, if you want, for $140.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 19, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Window light/ambient with or without reflectors is the easiest and cheapest way to lower contrast.



+1, but you need a ff camera for that because indoors with ambient from a window you're reaching iso 1600-3200 in no time with sufficient dof & fast x-sync for portrait - I just tried that with the 60d, nice shots, but horrible noise that drowned a lot of details. Actually, that was the last drop in the bucket for me to order the 6d


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## Skirball (Sep 19, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> privatebydesign said:
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He said he was having the opposite problem, too much light. If you’re using HSS because you can’t stay below your max sync speed and shooting at ISO 1600, you’re doing it wrong.


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## Marsu42 (Sep 19, 2013)

Skirball said:


> He said he was having the opposite problem, too much light. If you’re using HSS because you can’t stay below your max sync speed and shooting at ISO 1600, you’re doing it wrong.



Wupps, I should start reading the op's posts  ... but you're correct, I just couldn't imagine this situation, at least unless you need a very fast sync speed for freezing motion.


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## jdramirez (Sep 19, 2013)

for reference, most of these are night shots indoors. I work traditional hours and with the son going down earlier and earlier, flash is a necessity. bouncing it off the walls works, but I'd like to be able to do if camera effectively. it seems like one off those things that should simply come naturally.


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## Skirball (Sep 19, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> for reference, most of these are night shots indoors. I work traditional hours and with the son going down earlier and earlier, flash is a necessity. bouncing it off the walls works, but I'd like to be able to do if camera effectively. it seems like one off those things that should simply come naturally.



Then just get the cheap manual flash, you don't need HSS.


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## FTb-n (Sep 19, 2013)

Yongnuo YN 460ii. I've collect six of these over the years and they work great. Very simple and quick to adjust power, no menus to navigate. I most often use two per umbrella (60" Photoflex in shoot-through) for main light. This way I can avoid using full power and recycle time is very quick. Easy to add a couple YN 460's on the background to either get rid of shadows or blow white backdrops out.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 20, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> privatebydesign said:
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> > Window light/ambient with or without reflectors is the easiest and cheapest way to lower contrast.
> ...



Not at all, I just shot these for this thread, I'll do some more once it has gone dark.

Late afternoon/early evening and I am getting 1/40 sec @ f2.8 with 100iso only ambient light, that is the first image. The second image is same settings but with an off camera flash on the other side of the head in ETTL. The third image, is 1/100 sec everything else the same, the point is you now have filled shadows on image left. Fourth image is 1/250 all else the same, we now have eve more contrast as the face image left is another 1 1/2 stops under the face image right.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 20, 2013)

Here is a pull back.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 20, 2013)

Now the OP is tripping over himself, you don't need HSS to overcome ambient in normal room lighting at night. Once it goes fully dark here I will redo this with a bounce card if anybody would like to illustrate that. It is very easy to less contrast while using one light in a dull room at f1.8.


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## jdramirez (Sep 20, 2013)

what aperture?



privatebydesign said:


> Marsu42 said:
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## Marsu42 (Sep 20, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Not at all, I just shot these for this thread, I'll do some more once it has gone dark.



You're actually shooting clay heads :-> ... did you make them for practice? This is a great idea, I also wanted to do that but never came around to it, that's why I have to keep asking friends of mine to pose for paramount, loop & rembrandt lighting 



privatebydesign said:


> Fourth image is 1/250 all else the same, we now have eve more contrast as the face image left is another 1 1/2 stops under the face image right.



Hmmm, this is not my recent experience - in your shot, you've got a nice window with daylight and you're shooting at rather shallow dof with f2.8.

The day before yesterday I shot in a dimly lit room in the evening with a medium window - and I needed a larger dof and a fast shutter speed because I was doing a portrait of a friend of mine with her dog on her arm. I used the ambient from the window (I didn't measure it) as shadow fill for a flash from the other side as key light - and I was @iso1600 to see any noticeable ambient effect.

I calculate: darker ambient than in your example = maybe -2 ev ... smaller aperture = another -1 to -1.5 ev. ...and that's for a "flash type" shot, a more natural "ambient style" shot would even need a higher iso setting.

I'm definitely not through trying to mix ambient & flash indoors, so I'm open to other experiences  but I think the combination of deeper dof + dim ambient in non-studio situations makes quite a difference.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 20, 2013)

> "what aperture?"



As listed f2.8. A bit later I'll do a pull back of one off camera flash with a fill reflector at f1.8 as you listed earlier.




> "You're actually shooting clay heads :-> ... did you make them for practice?"



No it is one my girlfriend made for an art piece years ago, I am always getting in trouble for using it! A far better solution is Styrofoam ones from eBay, they are less than $10 shipped and come in men's and women's styles.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=styrofoam%20heads&_fscr=1


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## privatebydesign (Sep 20, 2013)

Here is a series when it is pitch black outside.
[list type=decimal]
[*]1Ds MkIII, 50mm f1.4 settings: Camera-M mode, f1.8, 1/250 sec, 100iso; Flash-M mode 1/128 power
[*] As above with reflector
[*]1Ds MkIII, 50mm f1.4 settings: Camera-M mode, f10, 1/250 sec, 100iso; Flash-M mode 1/4 power
[*] As above with reflector
[/list]


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## privatebydesign (Sep 20, 2013)

Pull back shot first, and exposure as above 1/250 @ f1.8 with no flash.

You might have noticed the shutter shadow on the image right of the f10 shots, this is an example of the losing one stop limitation Canon warn about when using the RT system remotely on pre 2012 bodies. I am becoming convinced it is an aperture related symptom.

Whilst I did use a fancy flash for this there was absolutely no need to, even the cheapest most basic flash that offers low power (I was at 1/128th power) can shoot at f1.8 and I was only at 1/4 power at f10.

My flash mods were a Large Rouge Flashbender and for a reflector an old bit of foam core that I actually held whilst taking the reflector shots a bit further away than where I leaned it for the pull back shot.


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## jdramirez (Sep 20, 2013)

It actually sounds like my 622c might be miscommunicating with the 580 and rather than communicating via ETTL, it is simply telling the 580 to flash at full. Which is why I was going to the high speed sync. Hmm. Come to think of it, I wasn't able to access the on camera flash control when I was having these over exposure issues. So maybe I go back to the drawing board and see if I can get the right setting so I CAN shoot at 1/200th of a second and then maybe I will go ahead and get a reflector to soften some of the shadows. Ugh. I'm a straight A student that is getting a C in this course on flash... it is frustrating.


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## Skirball (Sep 20, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> It actually sounds like my 622c might be miscommunicating with the 580 and rather than communicating via ETTL, it is simply telling the 580 to flash at full. Which is why I was going to the high speed sync. Hmm. Come to think of it, I wasn't able to access the on camera flash control when I was having these over exposure issues. So maybe I go back to the drawing board and see if I can get the right setting so I CAN shoot at 1/200th of a second and then maybe I will go ahead and get a reflector to soften some of the shadows. Ugh. I'm a straight A student that is getting a C in this course on flash... it is frustrating.



What shooting mode (camera) were you using? 

The flash firing at full power shouldn't send you into high speed sync; and if you were manually bumping up the shutter speed because the flash was too powerful then remember that shutter speed doesn't really have any affect on flash below sync speed. Regardless of what the issue is, you should have to be dealing with HSS in the situation you describe.

My 622 did the same thing when I first pulled it out of the box. I'm not sure what I was doing wrong, but I played with it for awhile until I got it to fire properly with eTTL. I'm not too good with the 622 as I usually just use my manual 602s. Which, I highly recommend that you switch over to full manual, camera and flash, for these photos. Your infant is the perfect test subject for that. If you only have one flash then you can start with ambient and mix in your flash. Or pick up a cheap second flash and start playing around with studio lighting. Seriously, and infant child is about as good a test subject as you're going to get (other than yourself), so long as the flashes doesn't disturb him/her. Just make sure to use modifiers, no bare flash.


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## jdramirez (Sep 20, 2013)

we had a constipation issue with the baby last night so I couldn't see if I figured it'd the problem... but that resolved itself ask I can do it tonight.


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## jdramirez (Sep 21, 2013)

Ok... so I think there is something screwy going on with the Yongnuo's 622c's. I start them up, start the camera, the flash and I'm ready to go... and while I can get the flash to go, it isn't on ettl. So I'm flipping through the settings, manual, Av, Tv... etc... and something like 5 to 10 minutes later it finally registers. Then I have full access in camera to hss, 2nd shutter, etc. 

I then went ahead and tried to (while Ettl was active) shoot at f/1.8 and it was still OVER POWERING with light. So stopped the shutter down to f/5.6 (so basically 10X less light was going through to the sensor). And that's fine, but again... I like the shallow depth of field. I like the Yongnuo's... but not if they aren't going to work right. So I am going to see if I can get an exchange and hope the next set works better. 

Seriously... am I expecting something out of the ordinary for ETTL menu to be functional immediately after turning the devices on? It seems like an ordinary expectation.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 22, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> Ok... so I think there is something screwy going on with the Yongnuo's 622c's. I start them up, start the camera, the flash and I'm ready to go... and while I can get the flash to go, it isn't on ettl. So I'm flipping through the settings, manual, Av, Tv... etc... and something like 5 to 10 minutes later it finally registers. Then I have full access in camera to hss, 2nd shutter, etc.
> 
> I then went ahead and tried to (while Ettl was active) shoot at f/1.8 and it was still OVER POWERING with light. So stopped the shutter down to f/5.6 (so basically 10X less light was going through to the sensor). And that's fine, but again... I like the shallow depth of field. I like the Yongnuo's... but not if they aren't going to work right. So I am going to see if I can get an exchange and hope the next set works better.
> 
> Seriously... am I expecting something out of the ordinary for ETTL menu to be functional immediately after turning the devices on? It seems like an ordinary expectation.


How close was the flash and what is its minimum power? Mine was at minimum 1/128th power at f1.8 and I was using a modifier. Put the flash on minimum power in M and see if you get a good exposure, if you do then ETTL is not working, if it overexposed then you need to move your flash further away or put a ND filter on it.


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## Gary W. (Sep 23, 2013)

Hey all,

It isn't their least expensive, but close... Yongnuo yn-560III... get this with their 602 or 603 transmitter added on top of your 622 and it keeps your ability to trigger by radio. All for @ $100! Built in radio trigger in a $75 flash is hard to beat!!
http://yn.eachshot.com/product/yongnuo-yn560iii-yn-560-iii-ultra-long-range-wireless-flash-speedlite_canon/

Gary W.


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## Skirball (Sep 23, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> I then went ahead and tried to (while Ettl was active) shoot at f/1.8 and it was still OVER POWERING with light. So stopped the shutter down to f/5.6 (so basically 10X less light was going through to the sensor). And that's fine, but again... I like the shallow depth of field. I like the Yongnuo's... but not if they aren't going to work right. So I am going to see if I can get an exchange and hope the next set works better.
> 
> Seriously... am I expecting something out of the ordinary for ETTL menu to be functional immediately after turning the devices on? It seems like an ordinary expectation.



Like PbD Like PbD said, it sounds like you're overpowering the exposure. I’m kind of surprised, unless you’re shooting the strobe bare. I don’t think I’ve ever bottomed out a flash when using modifiers. Are you using a modifier? ISO 100?

But reducing the amount of light isn’t really an issue (usually it’s the opposite), especially if you want soft light. Just put another modifier in-between the flash and your main. It can be anything: a translucent piece of plastic (like from a milk jug), a tissue (don’t drape it on the flash – FIRE), a piece of tracing paper, etc. If you want hard light then just pick up a sample set of Rosco gels and use the ND filters – or buy a sheet of it. Or move the light further away, or bounce it, etc. You should have plenty of options no matter what look you’re going for.


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## jdramirez (Sep 25, 2013)

So these are the manual flash shots... with the darkest being at 1/128 and then progressing 1/64, 1/32, etc... but I really wasn't paying all that much attention to the exact power... I was just going in that direction...


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## jdramirez (Sep 25, 2013)

and here is one using the yongnuo's in ettl mode... yep... looks a lot like 1/1.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 25, 2013)

If it can do that light level in Manual, and not in ETTL (assuming you have not got FEC on) then there is something wrong with your ETTL talking, my guess would be the Yongnuo.

The cheapest way to work ETTL properly is used 550EX's. I love them and used them for years until I upgraded to the 600's. Hell I still have five 550's!


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## jdramirez (Sep 25, 2013)

and here is ettl mode with the yongnuo... looks like 1/1 or at least close to it.


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## jdramirez (Sep 25, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> If it can do that light level in Manual, and not in ETTL (assuming you have not got FEC on) then there is something wrong with your ETTL talking, my guess would be the Yongnuo.
> 
> The cheapest way to work ETTL properly is used 550EX's. I love them and used them for years until I upgraded to the 600's. Hell I still have five 550's!



I think you are right about the yongs... and what annoys me is that I paid a premium to have ettl... so I can use them as simply wireless manual triggers... but I kinda don't want to out of principle. I doubt they have a warranty, but I'm at least asking the place I bought them if there is a warranty, or a replace within this period of time, or just a return. I knew this would be a possibility when I went cheap... but I was hopeful.


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## jdramirez (Sep 25, 2013)

*MYSTERY SOLVED....*

MYSTERY SOLVED.

In short... it is the yongnuo's... but only one of them. Only one works as a transceiver... the other only works as a receiver... So I labeled them with a black permanent marker... All things considered... not the worst thing in the world... a little annoying, but I can live with it. Yes... yes... I should do manual everything... and I will when I have time... but when I'm "throwing" the baby in front of the camera and I know I have about 5 shots before she starts to yell... I will probably resort to ETTL. 

Actually the one that works only as a receiver... does work as a transmitter, but only for manual... so no ettl and it doesn't even transmit that I am hitting the on camera pilot... But if I'm stuck with them... I'm glad they kinda work.


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## Halfrack (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: MYSTERY SOLVED....*



jdramirez said:


> MYSTERY SOLVED.
> 
> In short... it is the yongnuo's... but only one of them. Only one works as a transceiver... the other only works as a receiver... So I labeled them with a black permanent marker...



Get out the 1/4" plastic colored tape and do a strip around it.

We should put this thread on the 'things to consider when purchasing speedlights' faq. Nothing against the Yongnuo's, but mix and match and having to figure it out based on model numbers just isn't my idea of fun.

Hope you found a way to reward yourself for brain teaser.


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## jdramirez (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: MYSTERY SOLVED....*



Halfrack said:


> jdramirez said:
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> > MYSTERY SOLVED.
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Well... both are transceivers... well supposed to be. So one of them is broken... but it could easily be one of them not working as a full transmitter/receiver... but without another to test, I'm not sure which one is to blame.


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## wickidwombat (Oct 5, 2013)

look at a canon ex90 it will master control your other flash
give full ettl and hss is cheap and does have enough power to give that extra fill you are chasing
they are also tiny weight next to nothing and take up little space in the bag


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## jdramirez (Oct 5, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> look at a canon ex90 it will master control your other flash
> give full ettl and hss is cheap and does have enough power to give that extra fill you are chasing
> they are also tiny weight next to nothing and take up little space in the bag



I thought about that, but I didn't want to go back to triggering my off camera flash with another speedlite like I did with my 60D. Actually, the yongnuo's weren't that bad, when they worked.


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## wickidwombat (Oct 5, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> wickidwombat said:
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> ...



i thought you wanted the fill flash too? or did you mean additional off camera fill flash?


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