# Used 60D or new 650D/T4i?



## locke42 (Jun 8, 2012)

Okay, I'm in a conundrum. One which lots of people here are probably also experiencing, especially today.

Should I get the 60D (used @ $799 from Canon's used store), get the T4i/650D @ $849, or hold out a couple of months (or probably more) for the 70D?

My only camera, apart from my phone, is an SX10IS, which my cousin calls a "baby-SLR." I love it, but my experience with it has made me loathe poor low light performance with a vengeance. However, I don't know how big of a difference a new sensor will really make, and the 70D will probably be priced out of my range anyway, so that's kind of a reach.

As I understand it, the T4i and 60D are practically identical in performance now, with only a few differences between them. Do the T4i's new features (DIGIC 5, touchscreen, stereo sound) make up for losing the 60D's top LCD, better constructed body, and better battery life?

I'll probably be shooting 75% stills (probably all in RAW+JPEG Fine), 25% video, mainly of family events (35%) and landscapes (65%). 

If it makes a difference, the lenses on my current shopping list are the 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 USM and the 50mm f/1.8.


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## aznable (Jun 8, 2012)

for shooting stills the double dial in the 60D is a very nice feature, but if you are also interested in video is better to wait the in depth reviews of the 650D regarding the new hybrid af system in live view mode (with stm and us motors)


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## drjlo (Jun 8, 2012)

I have t2i as my backup body to my 5D III, and if I were you, I would NOT buy anything from Canon at this point, June 2012, with the same tired 18 MP sensor (with hybrid AF thrown in) that's already in my t2i. I've always shot RAW on t2i, and as such, I do not expect any improvement in final RAW IQ with T4i... or 60D or anything that uses the same sensor. 

If I was forced for some reason to buy a crop body right now, I would buy the Nikon D3200 for $699, which includes the 18-55 lens unlike the body-only T4i for $849.


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## locke42 (Jun 8, 2012)

aznable:
Hmm, I'm not sure how important AF in video is to me. Does it make that big of a difference?

drjlo:
No articulated screen = no purchase. That was one feature I LOVED on my SX10 IS, so I really don't want to be without it.


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## aznable (Jun 8, 2012)

locke42 said:


> aznable:
> Hmm, I'm not sure how important AF in video is to me. Does it make that big of a difference?
> 
> drjlo:
> No articulated screen = no purchase. That was one feature I LOVED on my SX10 IS, so I really don't want to be without it.



i dont know because i dont shoot video at all, we have to wait the reviews (maybe it will turn ouit in an exceptional value for videos shooting)...your canon 60D it's not going anywahere...maybe it will drop in price while waiting


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## moreorless (Jun 8, 2012)

drjlo said:


> I have t2i as my backup body to my 5D III, and if I were you, I would NOT buy anything from Canon at this point, June 2012, with the same tired 18 MP sensor (with hybrid AF thrown in) that's already in my t2i. I've always shot RAW on t2i, and as such, I do not expect any improvement in final RAW IQ with T4i... or 60D or anything that uses the same sensor.
> 
> If I was forced for some reason to buy a crop body right now, I would buy the Nikon D3200 for $699, which includes the 18-55 lens unlike the body-only T4i for $849.



Surely that depends alot on what he's after, the Canons offers quite a few specs beyond the Nikon(AF, FPS, VF) and to make the most out of those 24 MP I'd guess will need lenses that arent longer range zooms like the 15-85mm/16-85mm.


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## Albi86 (Jun 8, 2012)

25% of videos is A LOT. That alone should push you toward the 650D.

Anyway, new sensor and new processor are also quite an interesting upgrade. It's safe to assume that IQ will be a tad better. Just wait a bit for the price to drop to an acceptable level.


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## locke42 (Jun 8, 2012)

Well, most of that "25% video" comes from family events, e.g. trips to Disneyland, hanging out in the home, etc. Not really circumstances that would make video AF vital. But I do take a lot of video during those family events. Last time we went to Disney, for example, I took about an hour's worth of video, and only maybe twenty or thirty photos. Still, I don't see myself putting video features above photography features.

When I go on hikes or camping trips, I hardly take any videos at all. That's where the "75% stills" come from. I take TONS of photos during my outdoors trips. For those trips, the ratio flips completely to 99% stills, 1% video (if I take video at all). Typically the only videos I take during my outdoors trips come from my GoPro (I do a lot of extreme sports, e.g. skydiving, bungee, etc.).

As for price dropping, I don't know how much further the 60D could drop. It certainly won't drop below the T4i, and it's already only $50 more expensive.


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## Albi86 (Jun 8, 2012)

locke42 said:


> Well, most of that "25% video" comes from family events, e.g. trips to Disneyland, hanging out in the home, etc. Not really circumstances that would make video AF vital. But I do take a lot of video during those family events. Last time we went to Disney, for example, I took about an hour's worth of video, and only maybe twenty or thirty photos. Still, I don't see myself putting video features above photography features.
> 
> When I go on hikes or camping trips, I hardly take any videos at all. That's where the "75% stills" come from. I take TONS of photos during my outdoors trips. For those trips, the ratio flips completely to 99% stills, 1% video (if I take video at all). Typically the only videos I take during my outdoors trips come from my GoPro (I do a lot of extreme sports, e.g. skydiving, bungee, etc.).
> 
> As for price dropping, I don't know how much further the 60D could drop. It certainly won't drop below the T4i, and it's already only $50 more expensive.



The 650D has a new sensor and a new processor, I don't see the point of buying a 60D. Neither does Canon, as the 60Da suggests.
I meant to wait for the 650D's price to drop. Around Xmas it should be ok.


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## locke42 (Jun 8, 2012)

Christmas is too late for me. Ideally, I'd like to have a DSLR in my hands by the end of the month. July at the latest.

EDIT:
Bloody effing hell, only a 6-shot buffer on the T4i?


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## Marine03 (Jun 8, 2012)

locke42 said:


> Christmas is too late for me. Ideally, I'd like to have a DSLR in my hands by the end of the month. July at the latest.
> 
> EDIT:
> Bloody effing hell, only a 6-shot buffer on the T4i?



If you have to have a camera in the next month, I'd get a 7D through the Canon loyalty program. Find on craigslist a busted point and shoot call up canon and get a deal on a refurb. Other like for myself I'm holding out hoping for a new sensor in the 70D. 

Did I mention the pricing through CLP 
Canon 60D - $639.99
Canon 60D with 18-135 IS Kit Lens - $831.36
Canon 7D - $1,087.20


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## Overhodet (Jun 8, 2012)

It is the perfect crop Canon camera available today. Over the rebel series it has a larger capacity battery and a larger grip. LCD screen on top and larger viewfinder with a pentaprism. Dual control dials and better quality buttons and housing. The shutter sound is also much more quiet and sturdy sounding compared to the rebel series. These are the reasons why I now am on my third 60D body and I plan to keep it until the hypothetical successor comes a long 

7D has a bad screen and a non tilting screen and no volume adjustment in video recording.


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## locke42 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm honestly not holding my breath on lowlight performance from the T4i. I suspect that the major benefit will come from JPEG processing by the DIGIC 5. The question is, would I be better served relying on the DIGIC processor for noise reduction or would I get better results from using a third party program to convert RAW into JPEG? If the former, then I'll go with the T4i. If the latter, then 60D.

And what about ergonomics? I don't like the absence of the top LCD screen on the T4i, or the lack of dials. Simpler controls usually means slower usage in real world use. But then again, I've never owned a DSLR before, so I don't actually know how it affects real world use. And then there's the 6-shot buffer and less than half the battery life of the 60D. I don't do much rapid-fire photography, but I still do some (animals), and, like I said, I take lots of pictures while camping, which necessarily means being in places where I can't easily get replacement batteries.


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## Overhodet (Jun 8, 2012)

It sounds like the 60D is the right choice for you assuming the price is close to the T4i. I actually payed less for the 60D than the T4i preorder price. I have shot the Aurora with the 60D so low noise performance isn't that bad. See my blog for more details and a timelapse video.
http://overhodetcom.blogspot.com/

Edit: Aurora timelapse shot at ISO 800 and 1600
Ergonomics isn't as good on the rebel series. It is especially annoying to not have separate dials for aperture and shutter speed.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 8, 2012)

I'd go with the T4i. Even if the sensor is the same as the one used in existing Rebel/60D/7Ds, then it will be a huge increase in IQ compared to a P&S. The T4i is much more friendly for video users with auto AF. The T4i is basically a combined HD camcorder and a SLR, which is a good value and it reduces the amount of gear you'd need to do both tasks.

Battery life is so much better for SLRs compared to P&S. If that concerns you, get a spare or two. You could also shoot just RAW to increase burst rate according to the spec. I never use jpgs out of the camera anymore. Everything goes through LR, which is then used to generate jpgs after all the changes are in.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 8, 2012)

locke42 said:


> As I understand it, the T4i and 60D are practically identical in performance now, with only a few differences between them. Do the T4i's new features (DIGIC 5, touchscreen, stereo sound) make up for losing the 60D's top LCD, better constructed body, and better battery life?



No, they aren't. The 60d has, apart from the mentioned battery life, better built/sealing, top lcd & back dial at least ...
a) larger viewfinder & pentaprism
b) 1/8000s shutter,
c) 1/250s flash sync (even better than the 5d3)
d) larger buffer and better fps in raw for continuous shots (the 650d fps rate is for making multi-shot jpeg noise
reduction feasible)
e) runs magic lantern NOW (a stable digic5 port imho will take a year or so)

Ask yourself if you want video af & a touchscreen, or else get a 60d or if you have money & time to spare wait for the 70d which will have afma & mag body that was cut from the 60d to make the 7d look better.


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## preppyak (Jun 8, 2012)

Random Orbits said:


> The T4i is much more friendly for video users with auto AF. The T4i is basically a combined HD camcorder and a SLR, which is a good value and it reduces the amount of gear you'd need to do both tasks.


We assume this. Has anyone posted video of the T4i auto-focus? Cause it could be crap for all we know.



> Battery life is so much better for SLRs compared to P&S. If that concerns you, get a spare or two.


Or get the 60D, where you get 3x the battery life. For an entire weekend backpacking trip, you'll never need to change batteries with a 60D.

As was mentioned, the 60D still has a lot of nice elements over the T4i, and Magic Lantern, which is useful for its focus peaking, etc when trying to use the AF. You can get the body for $640+tax from the Canon Loyalty Program, and I believe the 18-135 kit is like $830+tax. Like you said, new, they are about the same price as the T4i, and just from the ergonomics alone I think its worth the upgrade.

I believe Canon Loyalty is also letting you add an extra lens at 20% off, so you can look through and see if there are others you'd want. I think most of the L lenses are excluded. http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subCategory_10051_10051_-1_22751?WT.mc_id=C126149#


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## locke42 (Jun 8, 2012)

What is Magic Lantern? I've only skimmed a few sites and its wiki, but I gather that it adds some significant video features?


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## preppyak (Jun 8, 2012)

locke42 said:


> What is Magic Lantern? I've only skimmed a few sites and its wiki, but I gather that it adds some significant video features?


Yeah, focus peaking is nice (allows you to see what is in focus), as are some of the other add-ons. It does some nice stuff for photos too. If you've got a Ti camera, it allows you to use the multiples of 160 for video. It allows you to control ISO in 1/3 steps, which is the only way you can use ISO 160, 320, and 640.

You can also control the video quality, you can raise the bit-rate (higher quality) or lower it (allowing you to record longer). There are a million other features, but those are the big ones I've used


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## boateggs (Jun 8, 2012)

Correct me if im wrong, but the T4i will be like other rebels and only allow full stops in ISO and shutter speed while the 60D will allow 1/3 stop increases. This and the ergonomics are why I am waiting for the 70D (I am no hurry and expect to wait until spring)


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## Marsu42 (Jun 8, 2012)

preppyak said:


> Or get the 60D, where you get 3x the battery life. For an entire weekend backpacking trip, you'll never need to change batteries with a 60D.


... unless you use a lot of video and/or IS which drains power faster - but still, I only have one battery for the 60d and it's sufficient for a day shooting 1000 shots+



preppyak said:


> There are a million other features, but those are the big ones I've used


Magic Lantern is the killer-feature firmware addon that digic4 Canons except the 7d have over the Nikon & Sony - it's a no-brainer for video (tune bitrate, modify fps, hdr video (!!!), ...), and very useful for stills (focus stacking, focus peaking, timelapses, trap focus, audio remote shot, unlimited bracketing, motion detection, ...)

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Unified


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## locke42 (Jun 8, 2012)

I asked this but I don't think it was answered:

About the DIGIC5's JPEG processing abilities (which are pretty good based on what I can see from DPReview's test shots on the G1X versus the T3i/60D/7D, can I get similar JPEG image quality from using third party programs? And if so, how? (I have Adobe CS5 Suite.)


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## Marsu42 (Jun 8, 2012)

locke42 said:


> can I get similar JPEG image quality from using third party programs? And if so, how? (I have Adobe CS5 Suite.)



My three step guide to ok pictures from the 18mp sensor:
1. shoot raw (not exceeding iso 800, max iso 1600), expose to the right avoiding highlight clipping
2. import into adobe raw 7.x (Lightroom 4 or updated PS) and use PV2012, recover highlights up to -100 ... 0,5 ev of dynamic range gained!
3. denoise only so much that your *final* output size shows the noise you can live with


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## aznable (Jun 8, 2012)

locke42 said:


> I asked this but I don't think it was answered:
> 
> About the DIGIC5's JPEG processing abilities (which are pretty good based on what I can see from DPReview's test shots on the G1X versus the T3i/60D/7D, can I get similar JPEG image quality from using third party programs? And if so, how? (I have Adobe CS5 Suite.)



if you are very good on taking thepics at perfect exposure, you can rely on jpgs.

if you are like me, better to post process the raw files


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## locke42 (Jun 8, 2012)

Okay, now I'm VERY torn. Just as I was all set to get the 60D, too.

I just played around with a Sony NEX-7, and that thing was sweet. And a hell of a lot lighter than the 60D. More expensive, but still around my price range. Image quality seems to be on par, based on DPReview. The NEX-7 has better noise reduction for JPEGs, but the 60D seems to be a tad better in RAWs.

I'd planned on getting the 60D with the 15-85mm USM lens, for a total of about $1600; the Sony is about $1200 for the body and the 18-200mm lens I'm looking at is $700.

The T4i and 70D are basically off the table now.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 8, 2012)

locke42 said:


> Okay, now I'm VERY torn. Just as I was all set to get the 60D, too.



Chances are that the 60d with a basic zoom lens is just your entrance fee into the expensive Canon dlsr world. Having more experience after a year or so, you'll want flashes, more lenses, filters, ... are you ok with buying that stuff and carrying it around? If not, don't get a Canon dslr, unlike Nikon (have a look at the d7000!) Canon is going premium price-wise, and other systems are more complete off the shelf.

Having said that, I don't regret getting the 60d, very usable and the 18mp sensor is ok if you can work around its problems. But as I wrote above dlsrs like this only shine with adequate lenses, I got the 100L (800€+50€ filter) and the 70-300L (1400€+50€ filter) for starters next to a basic flash 430ex2 (220€).


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## locke42 (Jun 9, 2012)

I don't really have an addictive personality. I'm much more of a utilitarian, i.e. whatever gets the job done easiest. In my case, I won't be doing any kind of studio photography. I'm a traveler, so I need something that can be used on the road. Like I said, 90% of the time my usage will be during family events and outdoors trips. The NEX-7 seems to be a good alternative to extremely heavy and bulky DSLRs in that regard, even if lens selection is somewhat lacking.

GAAAHHHH! I hate having to choose between two great but different products.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 9, 2012)

locke42 said:


> GAAAHHHH! I hate having to choose between two great but different products.



Next to the bulk of a dslr, the learning curve of a eos body is steep but still you'll have to learn to handle it if you didn't do this before - do you want this and have the time for it? I'm saying this because I think that using a real dslr (like the 60d, unlike the 1000d) in full-auto mode all the time is a waste, though you can use it as a point and shoot, too. People even use the 5d3 for this :-o

Somehow you're usage profile rather points at the Sony I'm sorry to say. I'd never get it because I hate electronic viewfinders, but if you even consider it and have tried it in a shop next to a Canon, maybe the smaller, simpler camera is the better option if you're ready to loose everything this great hobby has to offer :->


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## PictoPete (Jun 9, 2012)

If you get 60d body thru CLP and the 15-85/vari lens then you end up paying..
$640 for body
$512 for lens

So far $1152 + tax where applicable.
You can snag a 430EXII speedlite for $192 as well. $1254

That lens above is really all you'll need for anything, assuming a general walk-around lens. It gets great marks across the board on all the lens reviews. The flash isn't the highest-end one, but it will DEFINITELY give you lighting options where you were previously limited.

The only gotcha with the CLP discount is that you can only get lens and flash discounts if you order with a body.

Fret not about them being REFURBISHED. Some are returns. Some are overstock. Some are (barely-used) open-stock. The point is, I have no problem trusting CANON the camera-maker of this very hardware to assure that it is up to specification like a new product. So they clean everything and replace anything necessary to get it up to running as a new item would. They offer the 90-day warranty vs 1 year not as a lack of confidence but simply because it's the minimum required by law and also to give incentive to buy their NEW-listed product at the higher price if you demand the full year. The cameras look new in appearance and their packaging is the same save for a generic Canon box.

You will not be disappointed getting a refurb unit from Canon.

--

Magic Lantern for Canon dSLRs is amazing. Even if you aren't pushing cinematography as a hobby, it will give you options for when you do want to exploit video and photo even. You have nothing to lose.


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## locke42 (Jun 9, 2012)

I've decided to get the 60D. The NEX-7, I've learned, can't do some of the types of photography that I had intended on learning, i.e. long exposure and time lapse. Plus, the lens selection sucked. I hadn't realized how much it sucked until I tried looking for alternatives to its kit lens.

I already know how to use a DSLR in full manual mode, especially the 60D because my cousin got one a few months ago (a waste, IMO; he's the kind of person who doesn't have the patience to learn the manual controls, and every time I've seen him use it I cringe because it's always in automatic). I always used my old SX10 IS in full manual mode, and even with the NEX-7, when I looked at it in the store, one of the biggest draws for me was the fact that, in some ways, it offered even finer manual control and more feedback information than the 60D did (the triple dials make it really easy to change exposure settings in full manual mode, and its buttons are very customizable).

So, anyway, 60D it is.


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## PictoPete (Jun 9, 2012)

Awesome choice. Magic Lantern firmware for 60D has a built-in intervalometer function, making time-lapse more convenient should you need it.


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## locke42 (Jun 9, 2012)

PictoPete said:


> If you get 60d body thru CLP and the 15-85/vari lens then you end up paying..
> $640 for body
> $512 for lens
> 
> ...


How does the CLP work? Do I get the same discount regardless of what existing Canon I have? And does it really matter if my camera is broken or not? (My SX10 is in working order, albeit rather beat up and its lens is a bit scratched.)

I was just going to go back to the camera store tomorrow to pick it and the lens up, but if I save that much money off a refurb, then it's definitely a consideration.


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## PictoPete (Jun 9, 2012)

Read the OVERCLOCK.NET thread in detail first, but
To sum it up..
Call Canon up using the provided number then tell them you would like to go for the loyalty program. Describe them your existing camera model and problem. Then, select your choice of body, lens, etc for an SLR. Canon will then provide you the extra discount and charge it to a card and then ship. You will have to send your old camera in using a prepaid mailer sheet they email you. MAKE SURE THEY EMAIL YOU THE MAILER SHEET. There's also an express shipping option if the standard free ship isn't enough.

That's it in a nutshell, but do read the overclock.net thread first post from start to finish.


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## locke42 (Jun 9, 2012)

If the 15-85mm isn't actually included in the deal, then I "only" save about $150 or so (the discount off the body), which is only a 10% discount off the body and lens that I want. I save even less, if I have to buy a broken camera off eBay to send to them. And the savings disappear almost totally if I buy from Amazon since they don't charge sales tax or shipping. (I won't; there's a camera store here that I'd rather support with my business, but I'm just pointing it out. ;D)

I think I'll just use my SX10 for the CLP if I decide to move up to a full frame.


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## locke42 (Jun 11, 2012)

Trigger pulled!

I was originally just going to get the 60D with the 15-85mm USM and the 50mm f/1.8, but the sales guy at Samy's gave me a break on the taxes, so I bumped up to the 50mm f/1.4 USM.

Still.... my wallet's hurting!


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## Marsu42 (Jun 11, 2012)

locke42 said:


> Still.... my wallet's hurting!



Your wallet can only hurt if there's still something left in there - believe me, that'll change :-o ... the first thing I got after my 60d & first lenses was a 430ex2 flash for remote flash & high speed sync.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 11, 2012)

scrappydog said:


> Just wait until you buy your first L lens



Just wanted to mention it: There are other excellent lenses out there that create stunning images except for Canon "L", and older Canon L or even the current 17-40 aren't that stellar. I've got Canon lenses that don't have a comparable 3rd party alternative (100L, 70-300L), but others have like the Tokina 11-16, Sigma 50/1.4 and 85/1.4, Tamron 24-70/2.8 ... the only issue with your and my 60d is that it doesn't have af micro adjustment, so you have to get a lens that fits your body right from the shelf.


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## SambalOelek (Jun 11, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Just wanted to mention it: There are other excellent lenses out there that create stunning images except for Canon "L", and older Canon L or even the current 17-40 aren't that stellar. I've got Canon lenses that don't have a comparable 3rd party alternative (100L, 70-300L) (...)



In all fairness, the Sigma 105mm f/2.8 OS HSM is comparable to the 100 L, and on par mechanically and IQ-wise. It has a metal body, the 100 L is a bit on the plasticky side in my opinion. The 100 f/2.8 non-L is also at least on par IQ-wise (except the L's bokeh, which is great).


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## Marsu42 (Jun 11, 2012)

SambalOelek said:


> In all fairness, the Sigma 105mm f/2.8 OS HSM is comparable to the 100 L, and on par mechanically and IQ-wise. It has a metal body, the 100 L is a bit on the plasticky side in my opinion. The 100 f/2.8 non-L is also at least on par IQ-wise (except the L's bokeh, which is great).



Ok, I didn't make myself clear enough: I'd only recommend/get 3rd party lenses if there is a significant price or iq difference to Canon, because you'll run into less difficulties with the latter and it's valid for cps.

I had the 100 non-L macro and only switched it because the L has better sealing and is dual-usable as a portrait lens with IS and sharp f2.8 - I don't have a 70-200/2.8. I am frequently recommending the non-L for macro work, excellent lens.

At the same time, I'm always commenting on the 100L plastic fantastic build, but the iq and IS is stellar. I don't know much about the Sigma, but for currently 75€ more (Canon currently has a 70€ rebate) I'd take the Canon any day.


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## absolutic (Jun 11, 2012)

*SONY NEX*



locke42 said:


> Okay, now I'm VERY torn. Just as I was all set to get the 60D, too.
> 
> I just played around with a Sony NEX-7, and that thing was sweet. And a hell of a lot lighter than the 60D. More expensive, but still around my price range. Image quality seems to be on par, based on DPReview. The NEX-7 has better noise reduction for JPEGs, but the 60D seems to be a tad better in RAWs.



Sony NEX is excellent as a companion to one's main camera. I have Sony Nex 5n which is better in low light than Sony Nex 7, and half the price, but Sony Nex 7 is a nice choice too, on ergonomics and quality and dynamic range at low ISOs. I bring my Sony Nex 5n at night/when going out/ when I don't feel like bringing my DSLR with me. I need not worry about the noise, as it shares 16MP sensor with Nikon D7000 and Pentax K5 and Sony A models from last year, but has a weaker anti-aliasing filter, so has even better quality (check it out on DXO site). Nex 5n also has touch screen with touch screen auto focus, which Nex 7 is missing. You can spend the $650 you saving on lenses


Re: CLP: while getting 5DM2 for $1400+tax from CLP is a good deal in comparion which what you get on used market (Fred Miranda/POTN/Craigslist), getting 7D for almost $1100+tax is not a good deal, as you can get a mint used one for $1000 from all of the above forums, sometimes with extra goodies (like batteries etc). In my opinion, if you want 7D, go get used. They are all built like tanks these days and it is hard to find a bad one.ß


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## BCMAR15 (Jun 11, 2012)

Just my 2 cents, for me, 60D.

I have nothing against the new cam. Its value adds--no denying they're there--just don't fit my current needs. I would never use anything but manual focus, not matter how good the A/F is. My focus point isn't always the cam's.

I'm happy to see it, though, especially if it drives the cost of the T2i down. I do video more than stills and having B, C, D roll (different angles, audio backup) is great.

As to the 18MP sensor carry-over--GREAT! I get a LOT of B roll from other parts of the country. Having the SAME sensor in a bunch of cameras makes my post-processing a breeze. I just tell them how I what their cam--7D, 60D, 3Ti, 2Ti--set up, and it matches my stuff.


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## ashmadux (Jun 11, 2012)

*Re: SONY NEX*

In my opinion, if you want 7D, go get used. They are all built like tanks these days and it is hard to find a bad one.ß
[/quote]

Buyer beware. My 7d i bought used, has never been a champion, and is on its way back to canon for its third adjustment. I sadly can rely more on a rebel body then a 7d. My thinking is well colored at this point.

speaking of which, I am about to buy a new T2i. Great image quality, for me at the wnd of the day, is king. But admittedly the 7d is a wonderfully functioning body- sensor, not so much.


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## DB (Jun 11, 2012)

*Re: SONY NEX*



ashmadux said:


> In my opinion, if you want 7D, go get used. They are all built like tanks these days and it is hard to find a bad one.ß



Buyer beware. My 7d i bought used, has never been a champion, and is on its way back to canon for its third adjustment. I sadly can rely more on a rebel body then a 7d. My thinking is well colored at this point.

speaking of which, I am about to buy a new T2i. Great image quality, for me at the wnd of the day, is king. But admittedly the 7d is a wonderfully functioning body- sensor, not so much.
[/quote]

7D used is almost same price as 7D new.

With regard to 7D image quality (I had T2i before) it has never let me down, took these pics today: 
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=7248.0

Perhaps you were unfortunate and didn't get one that was 100%.


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## Steb (Jun 11, 2012)

One more hint for the 60D. If you shoot fast moving scenes, with the multicontroller you can select every AF point with the press of just one button. It is more complicated to switch points on the Rebel and that was my main reason for upgrading.


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## SambalOelek (Jun 11, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> SambalOelek said:
> 
> 
> > In all fairness, the Sigma 105mm f/2.8 OS HSM is comparable to the 100 L, and on par mechanically and IQ-wise. It has a metal body, the 100 L is a bit on the plasticky side in my opinion. The 100 f/2.8 non-L is also at least on par IQ-wise (except the L's bokeh, which is great).
> ...



Ok, that makes sense. The 100L is great, no question about it. It just feels a bit...tacky compared to, well, any other L-lens I can think of


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## Marsu42 (Jun 11, 2012)

SambalOelek said:


> The 100L is great, no question about it. It just feels a bit...tacky compared to, well, any other L-lens I can think of



And I'm grateful for the "tacky" build even if I make critical remarks about it, because otherwise the L with all the current Canon tech in it wouldn't be $1000 but $2000 and out of my price range.



Steb said:


> One more hint for the 60D. If you shoot fast moving scenes, with the multicontroller you can select every AF point with the press of just one button. It is more complicated to switch points on the Rebel and that was my main reason for upgrading.



One more hint: with magic lantern, you can select not only one or all af points, but many focus patterns (points to the right, left, top, down, center cross, ...).


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## Steb (Jun 12, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> One more hint: with magic lantern, you can select not only one or all af points, but many focus patterns (points to the right, left, top, down, center cross, ...).



Doesn't sound too fancy with only 9 points.  But might be a nice feature to have. ML is still on my list to look into. My understanding was that it is mostly useful for video which is not of a big interest for me, but now I am curious.


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## Jettatore (Jun 12, 2012)

Skip it all, wait and save for a used 5DII if video is a requirement, otherwise get a used 5Dc. Without question, if you can, go straight to full-frame, you've already had your intro and it was on a crop. A 7 year old full frame would be a huge upgrade, even compared to a 60D.


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## Tabor Warren Photography (Jun 12, 2012)

60D, you would be amazed at the difference in image quality from the Rebel line. Good glass of course is often what makes it or breaks it though if your looking for excellence in your images. I also own the 5DII and quite honestly they are two different tools but the best of my work often still stems from my 60D + 35mm f/1.4L combo.


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## wickidwombat (Jun 12, 2012)

Tabor Warren Photography said:


> 60D, you would be amazed at the difference in image quality from the Rebel line. Good glass of course is often what makes it or breaks it though if your looking for excellence in your images. I also own the 5DII and quite honestly they are two different tools but the best of my work often still stems from my 60D + 35mm f/1.4L combo.



they have the same sensor! you must be kidding...

same glass, same exposure settings 600D vs 60D there will be no difference in IQ

agreed there is apparently some subtle differences with the 7D due to processing


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## Tabor Warren Photography (Jun 12, 2012)

I humbly agree.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 12, 2012)

Steb said:


> Doesn't sound too fancy with only 9 points.  But might be a nice feature to have. ML is still on my list to look into. My understanding was that it is mostly useful for video which is not of a big interest for me, but now I am curious.



But the focus patterns make the crappy 9 point af workable at all, because if activating all points all over the frame at once the af usually ends up all over the place. And ml is extremely useful for still shots too, I use it all the time for focus peaking, zebras, focus stacking, trap focus, audio remote shot, timer bulb mode, unlimited automatic bracketing, ... http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Unified


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## edawg (Jun 13, 2012)

The 60D is a rockstar camera that's very versile. It's not too big like the 7D or 5D, not too small like the Rebels. The autofocus is quick and accurate enough to be used in sports. The image quality is good but the 5D destroys it in low light. Still for a canon aps-c all the sensors are the same - no variation in image quality. The flip screen is handy at times (and I don't even shoot video). The 60D is a great camera, and a really good value at so much less $ than the 7d. Just based on my experience having shot with the 60D as my travel camera over the last year.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 13, 2012)

edawg said:


> The autofocus is quick and accurate enough to be used in sports.



I agree with you that the 60d is a nice camera - except for sports: the af points are simply spread too far apart, and relying only on a single af point to do the tracking often doesn't do it. And the worst part is the crippled firmware, since you cannot customize *anything* of the af servo system - just use it or don't use it, from my experience with it I don't I'm sorry to say.

What lens did you use to shoot which type of sport that makes you say the 60d is "accurate enough"?


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## aznable (Jun 13, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> edawg said:
> 
> 
> > The autofocus is quick and accurate enough to be used in sports.
> ...



agree...using the servo and central point the AF is erratic, but the firmware it's not crippled … this kinda autofocus Always worked this way, from 40D to nowadays

the autofocus should be the same of 650D...for taking pactures, should be inferior for video


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## Marsu42 (Jun 13, 2012)

aznable said:


> agree...using the servo and central point the AF is erratic, but the firmware it's not crippled … this kinda autofocus Always worked this way, from 40D to nowadays



Well, then let me put it another way or I'm getting flamed by some well-known Canon enthusiast: The firmware of 40d-60d has only very basic features for servo af, namely turning it on or off. One thing that would be easy to implement is to tell the camera how long I can move the af frame away from the tracked object before the camera searches for a new object for lock onto.


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## alan_k (Jun 14, 2012)

I have had some issues with poor AI Servo function on the 60D, but only with fast, small objects (flying birds). Otherwise I'm pretty happy to use center point combined with back-button focus.

At least for my own use, I think I'd miss more shots from accidentally turning the mode dial and inadvertently setting it to some completely inappropriate setting than I would from some difference in AF ability. The mode dial lock was a big reason I upgraded from the t2i. That being said, I don't do much video so that isn't a factor for me.


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