# 5D Mark III Brief Specs? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 26, 2012)

```
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<strong>From Aquatech

</strong>On the <a href="http://www.facebook.com/pages/AquaTech/267894565157">Aquatech Facebook page</a>, they have said the 5D Mark III will be 22mp and shoot at 7.5fps. They say it’s “directly from Canon”.</p>
<p>A few issues I have with this.</p>
<ul>
<li>Housing companies are notorious for “leaking” information for traffic, which I just did.</li>
<li>Any old staff member may have updated the Aquatech status.</li>
<li>NDAs exist with third party manufacturers.</li>
</ul>
<p>It could be legit. I’ve heard 21-22mp a lot. The frames per second is a new one.</p>
<p><em>thanks Zac</em></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## waving_odd (Jan 26, 2012)

Canon Rumors said:


> Housing companies are notorious for “leaking” information for traffic, which I just did.



+1


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 27, 2012)

Can someone explain why Canon would provide any information to a waterproof housing manufacturer in advance of the release of a new camera, other than detailed engineering drawings and specifications for the external dimensions and button placements on that camera?


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## V8Beast (Jan 27, 2012)

Regardless of whether this rumors is valid or not, all the recent rumors that the 5DIII will remain in the 21-22 mp range sounds logical. To me, that implies that it will be an evolution of the current 21 mp sensor, which makes perfect sense. The 5DII has a badass sensor and overall IQ that's still on par with the best offerings on the market. 

All Canon has to do with the 5DIII is slightly improve the DR and ISO, while substantially improving the AF, and it will have a winner on its hands.


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## traveller (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Can someone explain why Canon would provide any information to a waterproof housing manufacturer in advance of the release of a new camera, other than detailed engineering drawings and specifications for the external dimensions and button placements on that camera?



I was just thinking that myself... But I would be very impressed if their technicians could work out the sensor resolution and frame rate from this information!


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## tooslick2k (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Can someone explain why Canon would provide any information to a waterproof housing manufacturer in advance of the release of a new camera, other than detailed engineering drawings and specifications for the external dimensions and button placements on that camera?



As a Florida Scuba Photographer, I would think in order to build a watertight case they would need to have the model on hand. Building cases have to be perfect so that you can maintain button functionally and a perfect fit to seal the case. 

just my thoughts anyways


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## kevl (Jan 27, 2012)

Match this with a pro level AF system and it will be simply irresistible!


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## kevl (Jan 27, 2012)

tooslick2k said:


> As a Florida Scuba Photographer, I would think in order to build a watertight case they would need to have the model on hand. Building cases have to be perfect so that you can maintain button functionally and a perfect fit to seal the case.
> 
> just my thoughts anyways



+1 

One would think that it would have to be an actual working model in order to do testing as well. 

Kev


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## Gothmoth (Jan 27, 2012)

oh my.. i can hear the noobs already scream....

_what only 22mp.. where is the progression? i can´t crop with only 22mp._

8)


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## tooslick2k (Jan 27, 2012)

dilbert said:


> Why isn't this CR0?



It has the potential of being true. We know the model is out being tested, why not supply it to the companies that create waterproof cases for them?

Apple does it when they release a new iPhone, they give a model to Otterbox so that the day it goes on sale you can order the protective casing at the same time.


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## D_Rochat (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm curious to see what type of AF system they'll have to go with that 7.5fps. If it's anywhere close to a 19 point system, that would further imply that there may in fact be a 7D/5D amalgamation. I know, I know. They need an APS-C.... EF-S.... blah blah blah. Time will tell.


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## bvukich (Jan 27, 2012)

*Here's my "top secret" leaked spec list.*

The 5DII replacment body will be:
Black or black-ish
Take still pictures, and probably video
Will most likely not use film
If digital, I have it on good authority the sensor will be larger than m4/3, but smaller than 645
Feature Auto-Focus
Will probably be EF mount
Will almost certainly be branded as Canon
Might have some type of removable flash memory based medium for picture storage
Will prominently feature button(s) <-note the plural, for key functions like taking a picture or changing setting

You heard it here first folks... :


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## TexPhoto (Jan 27, 2012)

"Housing companies are notorious for “leaking” information for traffic, which I just did."

Damn housing companies. Publishing speculative information that is not confirmed! Reminds me of another site I frequent... Hummmm...


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 27, 2012)

kevl said:


> tooslick2k said:
> 
> 
> > As a Florida Scuba Photographer, I would think in order to build a watertight case they would need to have the model on hand. Building cases have to be perfect so that you can maintain button functionally and a perfect fit to seal the case.
> ...



Maybe so. If that's the case, this leak has probably guaranteed that the next time Canon has a new camera they want to make a housing for, they won't get the camera in advance. Of course, their competitors _will_ get the model in advance and have the case ready around launch...and that can't be good for the company who leaked the infomation. I suspect that the company in question would have known this, they would have counted on it, and not allowed the leak (which is why I clearly cannot choose the wine in front of them; dizzying, isn't it?).


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 27, 2012)

bvukich said:


> Will prominently feature *button(s) *<-note the plural, for key functions like taking a picture or changing setting



But no knobs, switches, or levers? I declare shennigans!


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## D_Rochat (Jan 27, 2012)

bvukich said:


> *Here's my "top secret" leaked spec list.*
> 
> The 5DII replacment body will be:
> Black or black-ish
> ...



What fun would Canon Rumors be without the rumors?  That's the whole point of the site! 

And Auto-Focus hasn't been confirmed yet.....


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## waving_odd (Jan 27, 2012)

kevl said:


> tooslick2k said:
> 
> 
> > As a Florida Scuba Photographer, I would think in order to build a watertight case they would need to have the model on hand. Building cases have to be perfect so that you can maintain button functionally and a perfect fit to seal the case.
> ...



So how about those companies like Radio Popper, Pocket Wizard, Nissin, etc??

Do they need to have a working 5D III in order to do their testing?

How about the LockCircle company who makes the expensive body cap?


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## bvukich (Jan 27, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> What fun would Canon Rumors be without the rumors?  That's the whole point of the site!
> 
> And Auto-Focus hasn't been confirmed yet.....



Oh trust me, I love me some rumors... But I'd agree that this one is just a ploy for attention, like many of them are.

Good call on the AF, my "source" can neither confirm nor deny the existence of AF ;D


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Can someone explain why Canon would provide any information to a waterproof housing manufacturer in advance of the release of a new camera, other than detailed engineering drawings and specifications for the external dimensions and button placements on that camera?



Canon recently held a briefing on the new body with marketing spiel to affiliated companies. They maybe just gave one briefing to everyone regardless of individual need. That said, that meeting was under full NDA. The specs seem bizarre (why make 22MP when you already have a new 18MP one which is close?) and 7.5fps might be just enough to be too much for the 1DX. I mean the specs sound awesome, but curious for Canon.

Only thing I can think of is the 36MP (?) D800 got Canon scared and they went all out, 1DX whatever, on this and that they wanted Aquatech to leak this info too.

Probably easier to believe Aquatech was pulling a stunt though, but IMO that just makes them look bad, but I guess they figure greater upside from traffic vs any losses from disgust over the tactic.


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## bvukich (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> bvukich said:
> 
> 
> > Will prominently feature *button(s) *<-note the plural, for key functions like taking a picture or changing setting
> ...



If it doesn't have dials or sliders, I'm not buying it!


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 27, 2012)

TexPhoto said:


> "Housing companies are notorious for “leaking” information for traffic, which I just did."
> 
> Damn housing companies. Publishing speculative information that is not confirmed! Reminds me of another site I frequent... Hummmm...



That's fair.  Except I'm not selling you anything other than what you come to the site for.


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## tooslick2k (Jan 27, 2012)

waving_odd said:


> kevl said:
> 
> 
> > tooslick2k said:
> ...



Have any of those companies made camera specific accessories? I would think a water tight case is more important to start working on prior to the camera launch than others. 

But again it just my opinion, i dont claim to have any inside knowledge why Canon would choose one company over another. All we know with certainty is that there are 5d3 models out there being tested who gets the exclusive model before release to make a product for it isnt something i have intel on.


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## wickidwombat (Jan 27, 2012)

I don't really see the 5D and 7D line merging as they will occupy very different price points, the 5D will debut at 3k or more the 7D will sit under 2k. the lower end of the market is where there will be a shakeout especially with mirrorless on the way. the xxxxD xxxD and xxD line occupy a space that will really only fit one low end DSLR once the mirrorless moves in i think mirrorless will wipe out the xxxxD and xxxD lines leaving the xxD as the entry level DSLR with the 7D remaining the weather sealed crop flagship
then I am hoping they bring out a new small form factor APS-H 
2 FF bodies 1 APS-H and 2 APS-C bodies plus the new mirrorless I dont think they will produce a MP monster this round I tihnk they will wait and see the fallout from the D800 with its rumoured lack of high iso performance that will upset alot of Nikon wedding photogs


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## Orangutan (Jan 27, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> I'm curious to see what type of AF system they'll have to go with that 7.5fps. If it's anywhere close to a 19 point system, that would further imply that there may in fact be a 7D/5D amalgamation. I know, I know. They need an APS-C.... EF-S.... blah blah blah. Time will tell.



If it shoots 7.5fps then buyers are going to expect to use it for "action" shots, and it will almost require a significantly better AF. I'd go so far as to say that it would need to be the "FF 7D" that a lot of people want.


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## Minnesota Nice (Jan 27, 2012)

7.5fps at 21-22MP?

Sounds nice but who knows, I'm guessing the burst rate wont be that high but it's just speculation really.


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## smirkypants (Jan 27, 2012)

I have to say, I did not expect 7.5 FPS. I think I'll buy one... maybe two.


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## Orangutan (Jan 27, 2012)

And if this is actually a "FF 7D," that just leaves one hole in the pro line-up: a high-MP studio cam. Maybe that's the real 5D3, and this is the 7D2?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 27, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> I have to say, I did not expect 7.5 FPS. I think I'll buy one... maybe two.



The implication is that based on this rumor, you expect it now? :

18 MP x 12 fps / 2 Digic5+ = 108 MP/s per chip / 22 MP = 4.9 fps (or 5.7 fps for JPG). 7.5 fps means dual Digic5 at least. IMO - unlikely.


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## 00Q (Jan 27, 2012)

bvukich said:


> *Here's my "top secret" leaked spec list.*
> 
> The 5DII replacment body will be:
> Black or black-ish
> ...



+1

Any other news that are in the "rumour" department should NOT be believed. This post should be a CR0 as someone has put it. never believe in rumours.


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## Arkarch (Jan 27, 2012)

Leaks (a bit of info) and tip-offs (visit this area at this time) are bread and butter in some industries such as entertainment and politics. I have been on a few stunts myself. Usually done to measure reaction; blunt competition; gain attention; or win support. Probably not planned - but probably not pursued anymore as violation. Secrecy is breaking. The camera is obviously done - its just the media roll-out thats left to do.

If the recent news is correct, I suspect the camera is very near release and we'll know a whole bunch very soon.


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## AG (Jan 27, 2012)

Orangutan said:


> And if this is actually a "FF 7D," that just leaves one hole in the pro line-up: a high-MP studio cam. Maybe that's the real 5D3, and this is the 7D2?



No if that was the case the 5D3 would be the Huge MP, the 7D2 would be the king of Crop and this would be a 6D or similar and be priced in between the 2.

HIGHLY unlikely. 

Its more likely the 5 and 7 will merge, and they will make the XXD series the new 7D but with swivel screen. 

That also then leaves room for the mythical 3D mega MP monster people seem to be demanding too. (although i can't see that happening either, if you want a high MP camera invest in MF instead).


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## m3tek44 (Jan 27, 2012)

We all know 2012 is going to exciting year for all...... Finally. I just hope they don't charge arm and leg for it. :-*


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## iP337 (Jan 27, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> ...the lower end of the market is where there will be a shakeout especially with mirrorless on the way. the xxxxD xxxD and xxD line occupy a space that will really only fit one low end DSLR once the mirrorless moves in i think mirrorless will wipe out the xxxxD and xxxD lines leaving the xxD as the entry level DSLR with the 7D remaining the weather sealed crop flagship



Not to get too far off subject but I also like the idea of the xx00D being replaced by a mirrorless EF mount body, but I don't see it replacing the xx0D, Here's what I'd like to see for the EOS line: xx00D(APS-C Mirrorless)$1000, xx0D(APS-C Entry)$1000, x0D(APS-C Flagship)$1500, 7Dmk_(APS-H Sport)$2000, 5Dmk_(Full Frame Studio)$3000, 1Dx_(Full Frame Flagship)$6000.

To get back on track, if 5Dmk3 is the new Studio Cam, I doubt it would be 7.5fps; I believe it will have 22Mp but with something like 4fps and though I hope for a Pro-AF system I don't expect it on the 5D, I expect something like 9 cross-type AF points.


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## Wrathwilde (Jan 27, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> I have to say, I did not expect 7.5 FPS. I think I'll buy one... maybe two.



If you buy two you could get 15 fps, you just need to practice your framing by feel instead of by sight. And if they're $3K a piece you'll save $800 and get 1 fps over the 1D X.


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## Daniel Flather (Jan 27, 2012)

A waterproof case company that is leaking something, that sounds bad.


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## D_Rochat (Jan 27, 2012)

Wrathwilde said:


> smirkypants said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say, I did not expect 7.5 FPS. I think I'll buy one... maybe two.
> ...



Excellent point. You would also get 44mp. Take that D800!


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## te4o (Jan 27, 2012)

Daniel Flather said:


> A waterproof case company that is leaking something, that sounds bad.


 ;D That sounds really bad - but see, a Canon photographer in Kenya gets "shot" too, doesn't that sound bad too?
And both do this with such a nonchalance as if there is no NDA in this world. 
I am with Arkarch - the camera is done, the rest is a theatre stage... Enjoy the epilogue !


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## keithfullermusic (Jan 27, 2012)

00Q said:


> bvukich said:
> 
> 
> > *Here's my "top secret" leaked spec list.*
> ...




It's canonrumors.com not canonnews.com.


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## simonxu11 (Jan 27, 2012)

keithfullermusic said:


> 00Q said:
> 
> 
> > bvukich said:
> ...


Well Said!!
Then let's hope Canon can release a 8-600mm F2.0L IS weight less than 350g cost $500 ;D ;D


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> smirkypants said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say, I did not expect 7.5 FPS. I think I'll buy one... maybe two.
> ...



You didn't calculate that right. I'd say it's more like 18MP x 14 fps / 1.5 (since they do NOT get a 1:1 digic:speed ratio) / 22MP = 7.6fps.

(Or 50D speed at 27MP and some other data hint at support for perhaps up to 32MP at 50D speed.)

And also don't that dual-digic wouldn't be impossible, the regualr digic chips have all cost nothing much, even the lowest priced P&S has had one. Maybe digic 5 in plus version costs a bit more but still. 7D had dual digic. At worst it wouldn't raise price much from the extra chip alone itself. More expensive are faster shutter/mirror box or perhaps extra amounts of fast buffer memory and such, but most of all probably say a 4fps vs an 8fps FF mirror box is the real cost.


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## maciej.urbanski (Jan 27, 2012)

Let me throw-in my calculation.
In image processing algorithms such as ones used in cameras we do have linear scaling. So adding second CPU gives almost 100% more processing bandwidth. In most cases workload distribution is extremely simple - schedule processing to first free CPU. In short: two Digics - twice FPS.

Since 1DX has 14FPS (with mirror lockup, see here) and 18MP it means that one Digic5+ can do *126MP/s* (=18*14/2).

If 5Dmk3 would have 22MP with 7.5FPS it would need *165MP/s.* It's either two Digic5+ (not probable), significantly less per-pixel processing (even less probable, since processing is done in ASIC it would new Digic HW version) or either MP or FPS is incorrect.

Just for comparison: using 18MP sensor with one Digic5+ gets 7FPS which is optimal from development point of view (reusing sensor from 1DX and one Digic5+).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2012)

maciej.urbanski said:


> Let me throw-in my calculation.
> In image processing algorithms such as ones used in cameras we do have linear scaling. So adding second CPU gives almost 100% more processing bandwidth. In most cases workload distribution is extremely simple - schedule processing to first free CPU. In short: two Digics - twice FPS.
> 
> Since 1DX has 14FPS (with mirror lockup, see here) and 18MP it means that one Digic5+ can do *126MP/s* (=18*14/2).
> ...



Nope, check out all the past cameras generations and you'll see that adding a dual-digic in all cases only gave 50% rather than 100% boost.


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## briansquibb (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> smirkypants said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say, I did not expect 7.5 FPS. I think I'll buy one... maybe two.
> ...



Why not - the cheap 7D has dual processors??


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## VerbalAlchemy (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> [I suspect that the company in question would have known this, they would have counted on it, and not allowed the leak (which is why I clearly cannot choose the wine in front of them; dizzying, isn't it?).


I'm rather surprised no one's remarked on the Princess Bride reference. 

Inconceivable!


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## lol (Jan 27, 2012)

We don't know the maximum potential of the processors. The 1D X is only telling us a minimum power the processors are capable of. Even if there are two of them in there, it doesn't mean you have to use them to 100%. There *might* be enough power in a pair of them to cope with a hypothetical 22MP at 7.5fps, and they just have some processing power left over on the 1D X. 

Assuming the body as 22MP at 7.5fps, is this close enough to the "3D" people want? Assuming the AF is up to scratch of course. You can add me to the camp of why 22MP if they already done an 18MP FF sensor, unless it is to help prevent the deep pocketed uninformed from MP confusion with the lower bodies (18MP APS-C)?


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## Wrathwilde (Jan 27, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Why not - the cheap 7D has dual processors??



Exactly, and It wouldn't surprise me if the 5DMK2 is actually cheaper for Canon to build than the 7D. I know there are fewer sensors per wafer in production, but I seriously doubt they cost Canon more than a few dollars more per chip than the 7D's sensor, and by every other measure the 7D is a better built camera. So either it's a wash in cost to produce, or, more likely, the 7D actually costs Canon more per camera.


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## pakosouthpark (Jan 27, 2012)

these days are getting really exciting, with every other day 5d mkiii rumours  LOVE IT!

not always the best rumours though.


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## maciej.urbanski (Jan 27, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Nope, check out all the past cameras generations and you'll see that adding a dual-digic in all cases only gave 50% rather than 100% boost.


I've checked:
5Dmk2 - single Digic4: approx. 82,3 MP/s processing
1Dmk4 - double Digic4: approx. 160 MP/s processing (80MP/s per Digic4)
7D - double Digic4: approx. 145MP/s processing (72.5MP/s per Digic4)

In future - please check your facts before responding.


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## NotABunny (Jan 27, 2012)

maciej.urbanski said:


> Since 1DX has 14FPS (with mirror lockup, see here) and 18MP it means that one Digic5+ can do *126MP/s* (=18*14/2)



There is another possibility: the DIGIC5 can do more than 126 MP/s and the reason for "only" 14 FPS of 1DX is not the processing power (but either mechanical or electrical).


For example, Canon says that:



> http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/news/canon_reveals_flagship_eos_1d_x.do
> 16-channel readout to facilitate a high speed continuous shooting at up to 14 frames per second (fps)



So, the limit is not the processing power.


Interestingly enough:



> http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2012/digic_processors.shtml
> A DIGIC 5 processor is approximately six times faster than DIGIC 4. A DIGIC 5+ is approximately three times faster than DIGIC 5, and 17 times faster than DIGIC 4.



(There doesn't appear to be a DIGIC 4+)


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## jimmy156 (Jan 27, 2012)

I don't understand why people think the 7d replacement would be full frame.

If canon bought out a FF 22mp, Pro AF, 7-8fps 7dII at the same SRP of the original 7d, who would pay more then double that for a 1dX?

If canon do bring out another highish fps FF camera, it wont be called the 7dII (or the 5dIII for that matter). They might do this, call it something else, end the 7d line and bring the 70d/80d up to fill the gap. but i doubt it.


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## Rank_90 (Jan 27, 2012)

jimmy156 said:


> I don't understand why people think the 7d replacement would be full frame.
> 
> If canon bought out a FF 22mp, Pro AF, 7-8fps 7dII at the same SRP of the original 7d, who would pay more then double that for a 1dX?
> 
> If canon do bring out another highish fps FF camera, it wont be called the 7dII (or the 5dIII for that matter). They might do this, call it something else, end the 7d line and bring the 70d/80d up to fill the gap. but i doubt it.



I think the 7D Mk II needs to be put to bed now. In my view Canon would be mad to bring out the 7D Mk II as sales are still doing well and its not nearly reached its end of life. It doesn't need to be replaced or upgrades right now. Its serving its purpose on the market so Canon wont touch it just now.

The 5D Mrk III or the 5D X (who knows what they will call it) will be cam on the leaked pics. Thats what the majority of people know/think so can we kill the full frame 7D II idea as its a little off the mark.

Thanks,


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 27, 2012)

maciej.urbanski said:


> Since 1DX has 14FPS (with mirror lockup, see here) and 18MP it means that one Digic5+ can do *126MP/s* (=18*14/2).



Depends on the card they use - if it's the XQD, fine, but if it's a regular CF keep in mind that the 14 fps speed of the 1D X is limited to JPG only, which is why I stated, "_18 MP x 12 fps / 2 Digic5+ = 108 MP/s per chip / 22 MP = 4.9 fps (*or 5.7 fps for JPG)*_."



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Nope, check out all the past cameras generations and you'll see that adding a dual-digic in all cases only gave 50% rather than 100% boost.



That's a confound - the limitation probably isn't the Digic processor(s), it's the mirror. Even on the 1D X, the Digic5+'s aren't the whole story, else why is 12 fps the max for RAW and 14 fps is only JPG? That speaks to a buffer/card speed limitation.

Regardless, I doubt we'll see two Digic processors in a 5-series camera, and I really doubt we'll see 7.5 fps. But...I'd like to be proven wrong!


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## parsek (Jan 27, 2012)

A mere 22MP output would be incredibly disappointing for me, despite how great the rest of it will turn out. It would make me drop my plans of upgrading to the 5D Mark III entirely. Unless of course it has 18+ f-stops of dynamic range.


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## JR (Jan 27, 2012)

parsek said:


> A mere 22MP output would be incredibly disappointing for me, despite how great the rest of it will turn out. It would make me drop my plans of upgrading to the 5D Mark III entirely. Unless of course it has 18+ f-stops of dynamic range.



I see this a bit differently. Having a 22MP sensor is probably the best chance we have to see some tangible ISO improvement in the 5D mkIII with a new processor, as opposed to getting a super high MP sensor like 36MP and having ISO performance remains the same or even beeing less then today.

Of course all this are compromise, but we have to assume Canon will pick the compromise that suit the most people so as to generate the most sales...

Jacques


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## Orangutan (Jan 27, 2012)

jimmy156 said:


> If canon bought out a FF 22mp, Pro AF, 7-8fps 7dII at the same SRP of the original 7d, who would pay more then double that for a 1dX?



As Canon discovered with the 5D2, it's not about profit margin alone, it's about (profit margin) x (units sold). Sure, you don't want to cannibalize sales from a camera with a much higher profit margin...unless you can sell enough extra units to make up for it. It's well-understood (or at least widely reported) that P&S sales account for vastly more sales and profits than DSLR's, even with much lower profit margin; that same reasoning applies within the DSLR line. It's all about maximizing profit and, if they believe they can do that with a 7d2, or a 5d3 that's essentially a FF 7D, they will.



Rank_90 said:


> I think the 7D Mk II needs to be put to bed now. In my view Canon would be mad to bring out the 7D Mk II...Its serving its purpose on the market so Canon wont touch it just now.



The 7D's Nikon competitor, the D300s, has apparently been retired in preparation for the D400. We can only assume that the D400 is designed to take the "best sports crop" title away, so the 7D may not be serving its purpose on the market much longer. 

To many the 1D+1Ds merger was a surprise; perhaps we shouldn't be surprised by more surprises. ;D


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## simonxu11 (Jan 27, 2012)

parsek said:


> A mere 22MP output would be incredibly disappointing for me, despite how great the rest of it will turn out. It would make me drop my plans of upgrading to the 5D Mark III entirely. Unless of course it has 18+ f-stops of dynamic range.


Well, it cannot satisfy everyone


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## traveller (Jan 27, 2012)

I've tried to do all the calculations based upon previous Digic generations, but I've found that it's very difficult to come up with precise figures for processing power. Take the Digic 4 generation: 

1D Mk4 = 16MP x 10fps = 160/2 = 80MP/s
7D = 18MP x 8fps = 144/2 = 72MP/s
60D = 18MP x 5fps = 90MP/s 

So there's a range from 72 - 90MP/s that they Digic 4 seems to be capable of processing; so are the 1D X's Digic 5+s at the higher end or lower end of their capability range? There is also the complicating factor that the 1D X has a separate Digic 4 processor dedicated to AF and metering. It could be entirely possible that a camera using dual Digic 5 for both image processing and AF & metering, might only be capable of 7.5fps. Alternatively, this could be all that marketing would allow for a sub-1D series full frame camera. Of course, it is far more likely that this rumour is total BS!


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## zim (Jan 27, 2012)

The 7D2 will be so water proof it won't need a housing. so it must be the 5D for all you fair weather photographers out there


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## AprilForever (Jan 27, 2012)

Orangutan said:


> jimmy156 said:
> 
> 
> > If canon bought out a FF 22mp, Pro AF, 7-8fps 7dII at the same SRP of the original 7d, who would pay more then double that for a 1dX?
> ...



If Canon merges the 7D/5D lineup into a full-frame 5DX, Nikon D400 sales will skyrocket. Many people will rush to buy them. Likely, many of these will be Canon owners... :'(


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 27, 2012)

Orangutan said:


> It's well-understood (or at least widely reported) that *P&S sales account for vastly more* sales and *profits than DSLR's,* even with much lower profit margin



I love how people state assumptions as facts. I have this old cheat sheet of phrase translations for scientific writing; a couple of those phrases apply here:


"It's well undersood..." = "I think..."
"It's widely believed..." = "A couple other people think so, too..." (It's an old sheet - today, "I read it on the Internet..." is probably more apt.)

So, P&S sales account for more profit than dSLR sales? Do you have evidence to support this claim? I'm going to guess no...and I'm saying that because Canon has presented that the true situation is the opposite of what you state - and getting more opposite by the quarter. The screenshot below is a slide from Canon's 3Q11 financial presentation (that's the most recent one posted, you can find them all here), and I've highlighted the relevant part with a red oval. 

According to Canon, in 3Q11, dSLR sales accounted for 29% of units sold, but 72% of revenue from camera sales. If you look back historically (presentation materials at the link above), you can see that over the past several years, both the dSLR percentage of units sold and the percentage of camera revenue from dSLR sales has increased substantially (for example, 5 years previous to to 3Q11, dSLRs accounted for 12% of units and 34% of revenue).

On a side note, if you look at those numbers - more than a 100% increase in dSLR share of camera sales and revenue over the past 5 years - and also consider the overall dSLR market share, which went from a near tie to Canon dominating, it's easy to see how Canon could (and arguably should) feel that they have had a winning strategy for the past several years, and thus easy to see how they can justify sticking to that same strategy. I'm not saying they _should_ do that, but that's definitely the easy road, especially for a conservative company.


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## sjprg (Jan 27, 2012)

As a landscape photographer. if Canon dosen't get off their arrogant position and give us some info on the
1DS-IV, I for one am off to the Nikon D800 (36MP). I'll keep my 1DS-III as a backup. I don't need another PJ camera, but I would like a 40MP+ camera.


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## Orangutan (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> I love how people state assumptions as facts. I have this old cheat sheet of phrase translations for scientific writing; a couple of those phrases apply here:
> 
> 
> "It's well undersood..." = "I think..."
> "It's widely believed..." = "A couple other people think so, too..." (It's an old sheet - today, "I read it on the Internet..." is probably more apt.)



Dude, you've really been getting a snarky edge lately. No, I don't have any proof, which is why I explicitly said that it's been "widely reported." Calm down a bit. If you have better evidence, great, please present it. Not all of us have jobs that let us spend our days searching for Canon sales figures. My point still holds: it's not about per-unit profit margin, it's about overall profit. If Canon believes a certain strategy will lead to a higher overall profit, they will follow that strategy.

P.S. Neuro makes an *excellent* point about science writing, and I would never have used such sloppy language in a serious forum. It really is important to use precise, meaningful / non-weasel language in "real" science writing. Neuro, you are right to point this out, but relax with the snark.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 27, 2012)

@ Orangutan - sorry, I do realize that came off as directed at you, didn't mean it that way. I've read the same thing many places (those were the 'people', didn't mean to shoot the messenger!), and looking at the numbers, 5 years ago it was true - it's just not the case any more, and Canon obviously knows that.


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## parsek (Jan 27, 2012)

JR said:


> parsek said:
> 
> 
> > A mere 22MP output would be incredibly disappointing for me, despite how great the rest of it will turn out. It would make me drop my plans of upgrading to the 5D Mark III entirely. Unless of course it has 18+ f-stops of dynamic range.
> ...



Well I completely agree on your assessment. I just happen to be one of those photographers, who for most of my landscapes do not care for improvements in ISO, since I almost exclusively shoot at ISO 100. If I have problems with movement I never go beyond ISO 500, and find the quality acceptable for smaller prints. I would be absolutely fine with ISO handling remaining at the current level of MkII, if I could get twice the MP count and higher dynamic range to go with it. But then again, I dont do concert photography any more. I understand that low light high ISO perfection is a holy grail to many. Just like processing power is. I am just looking for a different kind of camera.


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## bigblue1ca (Jan 27, 2012)

sjprg said:


> I would like a 40MP+ camera.



May I suggest a Hasselblad?


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## bigblue1ca (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> On a side note, if you look at those numbers - more than a 100% increase in dSLR share of camera sales and revenue over the past 5 years - and also consider the overall dSLR market share, which went from a near tie to Canon dominating, it's easy to see how Canon could (and arguably should) feel that they have had a winning strategy for the past several years, and thus easy to see how they can justify sticking to that same strategy. I'm not saying they _should_ do that, but that's definitely the easy road, especially for a conservative company.



I would think that anecdotal evidence supports the DSLR portion of Canon's overall camera revenue is growing as well, and I assume Nikon for that matter too. All you have to do is look around and you'll see that traditional P&S cameras are slowly disappearing from the general public. I know I used to go to any number of events: grads, concerts, parties, bars, parks, beaches, etc. and you'd see lots of people with their P&S cameras. 

Now, I seldom see my non-photographer friends with P&S cameras, the reason is obvious, why carry a P&S when you have a iPhone, Andriod, or Blackberry. So now they use their phones to take their snap shots and those who don't use their phones have DSLR kits (Rebel). In fairness I still see some P&S cameras, but it certainly seems that the middle ground between phones and DSLRs is disappearing. 

Having said that I recently bought a waterproof/shockproof P&S camera for a vacation in Mexico, but all I used it for was snorkelling. I'll take it skiing with me at Spring Break, next winter on my next trip to the Caribbean, and in the summer I'll use canoeing at the lake with my kids (it's not unheard of for us to dump occasionally ). In the mean time, my kids use it, it's actually good for them, it's shockproof to 6'6"/2m.


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## simonxu11 (Jan 27, 2012)

sjprg said:


> As a landscape photographer. if Canon dosen't get off their arrogant position and give us some info on the
> 1DS-IV, I for one am off to the Nikon D800 (36MP). I'll keep my 1DS-III as a backup. I don't need another PJ camera, but I would like a 40MP+ camera.


Well, I think it's too early to get any info of 1ds iv,at most you will hear some rumors from other sources, but they won't be solid!
From Canon?? Their new flagship is not on the market yet and you want some info of the next flagship model??
Like other said there are some brands do offer 40mp+ cameras, if money isn't the problem!
Or just go for Nikon!


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## Bengt Nyman (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Can someone explain why Canon would provide any information to a waterproof housing manufacturer in advance of the release of a new camera, other than detailed engineering drawings and specifications for the external dimensions and button placements on that camera?


Because there are no such drawings. Products are designed on 3D CAD. You either send out the complete 3D CAD assembly model, and only a complete idiot would do that, or you send out a prototype 5DIII. There are many 5DIII out there right now, in different configurations, for test and evaluation.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 27, 2012)

Bengt Nyman said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Can someone explain why Canon would provide any information to a waterproof housing manufacturer in advance of the release of a new camera, other than detailed engineering drawings and specifications for the external dimensions and button placements on that camera?
> ...



Makes sense. But CAD programs I've worked with in the past have all had the capability to output files with the information specified. For example, Canon publishes graphics like this:







Which appear to have come from 3D CAD programs.

In the past, I've designed custom items to meet certain needs, and the engineering firms I worked with preferred the CAD output rather than a physical template, although the latter was desired at the prototype testing stage.


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## Bengt Nyman (Jan 27, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> All Canon has to do with the 5DIII is slightly improve the DR and ISO, while substantially improving the AF, and it will have a winner on its hands.


It is painful for us still photographers to learn that we hardly count any more. 90% of the efforts going on at Canon to develop the 5DIII has to do with pimping the 5D to become a sexier, cheap 5D video camera. I don't want no cheap video camera, less than half of which is designed to do high IQ still photography. Unfortunately Canon is doing the same with the 1DX. Yes, and Nikon is doing the same. Leica is no solution with the industries worst dynamic range and heavy handed, exaggerated contrast and saturation. I am beginning to think that if the camera has built in video, don't even consider it. Why? Because half the money you pay for the camera goes to subsidize the guy who buys if for video. I want the very best still camera. You want video? That's your problem.


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## Bengt Nyman (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Bengt Nyman said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...


Of course the underwater people would rather have the 3D CAD data as well as a prototype. Canon would be fools to give CAD data outside a need to know basis. That's why they got a camera, and still abused the nondisclosure agreement.


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## awinphoto (Jan 27, 2012)

Bengt Nyman said:


> V8Beast said:
> 
> 
> > All Canon has to do with the 5DIII is slightly improve the DR and ISO, while substantially improving the AF, and it will have a winner on its hands.
> ...



It's not that the majority of the client base wants or needs video, the simple fact that the majority of it's client base for the 5d and 1d cameras are professionals and like it or not, the professional industry is becoming more multimedia driven. Not many professional photographers have grandeous visions of buying it and pumping out feature films, but for many photographers, it's proven invaluable sales tool... Wedding photographers, photojournalists (2 main target audience of the 5d), commercial photography (what client would turn down a 2-3 minute video they can shove on their website for a shoot you're doing ANYWAYS for a few hundred dollars/thousand dollars? They cant even hire a videographer for as cheap) 

What extra bells and whistles do you really want out of stills camera? High ISO... that's debatable and except for extreme situations, Noise is typically more than acceptable, especially coming from the film days where shooting over ISO 1000 was almost taboo. More DR.. ok... every camera always seems to have some improvement in those two arenas... What else? Built in pocket wizards? 61 pt AF? auto white optimizer and D-min optimizer? Most other stuff is labeled "gimmicks and fluff"... so what would you "as a stills only" photographer want/need that you dont have right now? I think we should be grateful that we continually get new features and upgrade in quality... In the film era... you couldn't get upgrades in slide film past ISO 25-50 on average... You'd buy a brick of film, test the first few rolls just to get the perimeters on how to shoot the rest of the brick... I'm not saying we have to embrace video... it's there, if you dont need it, dont use it, no harm no foul... But to harp over it's existence seems futile and a waste of energy.


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## wellfedCanuck (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > It's well-understood (or at least widely reported) that *P&S sales account for vastly more* sales and *profits than DSLR's,* even with much lower profit margin
> ...



Blah, blah, blah. There you go with your fancy facts and logic again. This is the INTERNET, man, get with it! You're supposed to win an argument by talking over the other fellow- completely ignoring his more salient points while demanding that he respond to each and every one of yours. Then you *escalate*. With each round- raise your voice, use CAPS and lots of exclamation points until you're shouting him down and questioning his intellect/parentage/genetic fitness. From there you transition into obscure and absurd threats. Tell him that you've traced his IP and that you intend to track him down and kick his scrawny ass!! 

Geez, do I really have to spell EVERYTHING out to you?!!!


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## Daniel Flather (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > It's well-understood (or at least widely reported) that *P&S sales account for vastly more* sales and *profits than DSLR's,* even with much lower profit margin
> ...




I have zero proof, or any official stats to back this up, but I'll comment anyways, I think many PS sales are being eaten by phones.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> That's a confound - the limitation probably isn't the Digic processor(s), it's the mirror. Even on the 1D X, the Digic5+'s aren't the whole story, else why is 12 fps the max for RAW and 14 fps is only JPG? That speaks to a buffer/card speed limitation.
> 
> Regardless, I doubt we'll see two Digic processors in a 5-series camera, and I really doubt we'll see 7.5 fps. But...I'd like to be proven wrong!



If you look at all the past bodies pairings it always been seen dual digic givin 50% not 100% and it's been remarkably consistent. I don't think it's possible for them to get double processing speed by using two and something about how they have to be tied together always seems to hold it back 50%.

Anyway that said, I do doubt 7.5fps as well. THAT is one single spec that could pressure the 1DX a lot unless they tossed rubbish AF into the 5D3 of a level they probably don't dare. Plus a 7.5fps mirror box/shutter assembly would cost a bit more to make than a 6.3fps one. I don't think using dual-digic would necessarily be a shock, the only reason it might be is because it's modern day Canon, but even with the 7D they showed they would be willing to not be entirely ridiculous about things. That said I believe my numbers hold for the speed of the chips and that they can drive 6.3fps at around 30MP and won't even need dual digic 5+.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2012)

traveller said:


> I've tried to do all the calculations based upon previous Digic generations, but I've found that it's very difficult to come up with precise figures for processing power. Take the Digic 4 generation:
> 
> 1D Mk4 = 16MP x 10fps = 160/2 = 80MP/s
> 7D = 18MP x 8fps = 144/2 = 72MP/s
> ...



also D4: 50D 15.1MP * 6.3fps = 95MP/s from single
compared to 1D4 ahout 1.68x ratio

or digic 3:
1D3 10*10=100 from dual
1Ds3 21.1*5 = 105 from dual
40D 10*6.3 = 63 from single
about 1.66x ratio

anyway it is all a bit more variable actually, true
and a bit hard to judge actual factor, but it might well be better than 1.5, true too, although maybe not likely better than 1.75?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2012)

Personally I'd make it something like 30MP, 6.3fps, give it 1D4 AF or something better than 7D and worse than 1DX, video without moire.


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## thepancakeman (Jan 27, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> People trying to sort out major hints given on one forum where one member has seen and held the new camera, one possible guess for specs is apparently:
> 
> roughly 30MP, 6fps, AF better than 7D and worse than 1DX, video without moire
> 
> If so, those would be some nice specs (assuming everything works) and, on paper at least, make the D800 seem worse.



Now that is a camera I'd buy! (It's only $899, right? : )


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2012)

thepancakeman said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > People trying to sort out major hints given on one forum where one member has seen and held the new camera, one possible guess for specs is apparently:
> ...



More like $699 max. 

OK let us say $2700-$3700. (less than the 1DX because a 6fps FF shutter/mirror cost a lot less to make than 12fps version and sports guys want 8fps min these days and this won't hit the magic number and it won't have the same weather sealing, 100% VF, voice notes, etc.)

Although, someone pointed out that the hint giver also said that some might still prefer 1Ds3 over the new body, not just 1D2,1D3,1DX so it can't just be about the speed then since the 1Ds3 is slow and since the specs above sure seem way better to me than the 1Ds3, sadly, maybe they are just a dream (at least in Canon land).

Maybe it is 18MP, 3.9fps and crippled 7D AF heh.


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## briansquibb (Jan 28, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> thepancakeman said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



I bought a 1ds3 for the IQ instead of going for a new 1DX - I dont need a 1DX as I also have a 1d4 and a 5DII.

FWIW I did a comparison between the 1ds3 and the 5dII and the 1ds3 still is king at skin tones. 
FYI The 1Ds3 AF beats the 7D AF - and that is what was being suggested by Neuro as an option
FYI The 1Ds3 is faster than the 5DII at 5fps 

I can only assume you haven't used a 1Ds3 from your comments


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> FWIW I did a comparison between the 1ds3 and the 5dII and the 1ds3 still is king at skin tones.
> FYI The 1Ds3 AF beats the 7D AF - and that is what was being suggested by Neuro as an option
> FYI The 1Ds3 is faster than the 5DII at 5fps
> 
> I can only assume you haven't used a 1Ds3 from your comments



The hinter said 1Ds3 compared to the NEW body not to the 7D or 5D2. And 6fps is faster than the 1Ds3. And 30MP would be more detail than the 1Ds3. AF half-way between the 7D and the 1DX would probably be better than the 1Ds3 or at least a match. And then add in much improved video and liveview and UI and that wouldn't leave much for the 1Ds3 to be better at. Things like skin tones and low ISO shadows and so on, who knows, the hinter wasn't commenting on things at level.

Just to make it clear the hinter has not posted in this thread or even ever on CR AFAIK.

I was just saying that the 30MP, 6fps, half-way between 7D and 1DX AF suggestion probably wouldn't match the hints given after all.


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