# Photokina 2010 Report



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 21, 2010)

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<p><strong>Photokina 2010 Report</strong></p>
<p><strong>12:25 – The FujiFilm FinePix 100 via Mr Blurry Cam</strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<div id="attachment_5059" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 585px"><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/x100-2.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-5059" title="x100-2" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/x100-2.jpg" alt="" width="575" height="429" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Size comparison the X100 beside my Canon M9 :)</p></div>
<p>I hate taking images with my phone, the blurry cam was in full effect.</p>
<p>The X100 is drawing a lot of attention. Fuji had semi working X100 on display for the world to see.</p>
<p><strong>Hybrid Viewfinder

<span style="font-weight: normal;">Holy cow, that is amazing. Seriously, it’s beautiful. I’ve heard someÃ‚Â inappropriate (for this site)Ã‚Â phrases to describe the new hybrid viewfinder. I tend to concur. </span></strong></p>
<p><strong>How Much?!

<span style="font-weight: normal;">Initial reports of the pricing were high. We can expect the camera to cost “around $1000 USD” and “around 1000 Euro”.</span></strong></p>
<p>The pricing isn’t finalized, but that’s directly from Fuji.</p>
<p><strong>Fit and Finish

<span style="font-weight: normal;">No, it’s not built like a Leica M9, but it’s still very nice. I couldn’t take the camera off the tripod to check how it feels. It looks a little bit on the plastic side. It’s a nice size though. </span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-weight: normal;">I’m more positive about it now that I see the pricing.</span></strong></p>
<p><strong>12:20 – EOS 60D</strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<div id="attachment_5057" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 585px"><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1002930.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-5057" title="L1002930" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1002930.jpg" alt="" width="575" height="383" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">EOS 60D</p></div>
<p>Lots of heated talk has been bandied about in regards to this camera. People have directly compared it to Nikon’s well specced D7000. Fairly or unfairly, that’s the way it is.</p>
<p>My impressions of the camera.</p>
<p>I love the way it feels, it’s really made for larger hands and for people that want a camera that is well thought outÃ‚Â ergonomically. The camera feels solid, I can say I do not miss the skeleton of the 50D. The control wheel on the back is very intuitive and responsive. As is the center button inside the wheel.</p>
<p>The LCD screen is big and beautiful. The articulatingÃ‚Â mechanismÃ‚Â is very solid, Canon has always designed them well.</p>
<p>It was a bodychecking party around the 60D, so I didn’t get to spend much time with it. My first impressions of the camera are very positive.</p>
<p>For anyone considering a T2i, check out the 60D too.</p>
<p><strong>12:00 PM – PowerShot SX 30 IS</strong><strong>

</strong><strong> </strong></p>
<div id="attachment_5055" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 585px"><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1002936.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-5055" title="L1002936" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1002936.jpg" alt="" width="575" height="383" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">PowerShot SX30 IS</p></div>
<p>A camera I have called “absurd” obviously peaked my interest. The PowerShot SX 30 and it’s 35x zoom (24mm-840mm).</p>
<p><strong>Hands on Mini Preview

<span style="font-weight: normal;">The camera is a lot lighter than the previous cameras in the SX line. That’s largely due to being a lithium-ion battery instead of 4 AA’s I suspect. With the lighter weight, the camera doesn’t feel quite as solid as it did.</span></strong></p>
<p>I was unable to put an SD card into the camera as Canon locks that sort of thing down. I’m really eager to see how well it works at 840mm.</p>
<p>Below is a shot giving you an idea what 840mm looks like on the LCD screen. I am zoomed into the head above the purple blotch in the background. One the screen, the images appeared sharp. The IS seems to be very functional.</p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<div id="attachment_5054" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 310px"><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1002938.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-5054" title="L1002938" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1002938.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="450" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">SX30 IS Zoomed to 840mm</p></div>
<p>I don’t think I’m going to call the camera “absurd” anymore. I’m looking forward to seeing real world images from it.</p>
<p><strong>11:30 AM

<span style="font-weight: normal;">Back at the press center after spending the morning with Canon, Fujifilm, Topaz Labs and Sigma. The Canon area is obviously a zoo and since I’m a nice guy, I don’t knock people over to get to a camera.</span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-weight: normal;">What I could not find was the 4K camera or the white concept camera. I will go back and have another look. Their area is huge.</span></strong></p>
<p><strong>9:00AM – </strong>I’ve arrived at the press center and just trying to find my bearings. The show opens shortly and I want to be the first to hit the Canon booth. I’ll spend a fair bit of time this morning there. I’ll move onto others in the afternoon.</p>
<p>I’ll also take some time to find the weird, wild and wacky.</p>
<p>I’ll be posting pictures and all that jazz along the way. This is the first time I’ve done this, so it’ll be a learning experience for sure.</p>
<p><strong>Forum Thread: </strong><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,191.0.html"><strong>http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,191.0.html</strong></a></p>
<p>I’ll be choosing random people that participate in a positive way on the forums today for a free CR T-Shirt, I may even upgrade them to golf shirts or maybe even a hoody.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## that1guy (Sep 21, 2010)

Awww saweeet! I wanna hoodie. I live in Seattle and I could wear that thing a lot. So, will you be updating this thread w/ new info as you see it, or will you post separate threads for everything new? Have fun!
Oh, almost forgot, will you be able to upload photos on the fly as well?


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## gabriele (Sep 21, 2010)

Can't wait to hear other news from you! I'm so envy I wanted to be there so bad, but I'm stuck in Italy at the moment.
I'm really interested in the Canon EF 14-24mm f/2.8L USM and in the Sigma 85mm f/1.4...I try to not be interested in the 24-70 f/2.8L IS USM because I got this year the not IS version.
Try to get some gadget for us followers and have fun! ;-)


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## Anastas (Sep 21, 2010)

I hope Canon have something in their sleeves and show it in the last moment :


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## lotus (Sep 21, 2010)

Great job CRguy! It must be great fun to be there! 

Can't wait to get some wonderful news from Cologne when I wake up tomorrow in the Golden State


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## MCK (Sep 21, 2010)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p><strong>Photokina 2010 Report</strong></p>
> <p><strong>9:00AM â€“ </strong>Iâ€™ve arrived at the press center and just trying to find my bearings. The show opens shortly and I want to be the first to hit the Canon booth. Iâ€™ll spend a fair bit of time this morning there. Iâ€™ll move onto others in the afternoon.</p>
> <p>Iâ€™ll also take some time to find the weird, wild and wacky.</p>
> <p>Iâ€™ll be posting pictures and all that jazz along the way. This is the first time Iâ€™ve done this, so itâ€™ll be a learning experience for sure.</p>
> ...




Good luck hunting


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## that1guy (Sep 21, 2010)

So when do they let you in? I'm dying to hear about what you see, but it's getting late here. Almost 1am but I keep putting off going to bed so I can find out what is all there


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## suhtnaka (Sep 21, 2010)

Please ask necessarily! Why they still are so ignorant towards geotagging? There is no useable solution or any interface for it, to use an external solution. 1,000 â‚¬ for the bad solutions with an WTF and an Dawntech, may not be a serious suggestion from Canon?


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## dewa (Sep 21, 2010)

looking forward to some interesting news.
Was planning to go to Cologne two weeks ago but something comes up.
Have fun!


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## Peerke (Sep 21, 2010)

Did you see that 46 MP foveon X3 sensor on the new Sigma? Talking about resolution on APS-C size!  And the 150 macro with OS. I just bought the one without .


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## lesleyp (Sep 21, 2010)

I'm sure you could surprise us with some very new interesting info about the upcoming gear and stuff ! 
Enjoy!


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## ronderick (Sep 21, 2010)

I'm just dying to hear about their plans for the 1DsIV.... that thing is a bit overdue... :'(


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 21, 2010)

Craig, ask around for the most obvious question we all have: what is the "second body" to be released by Canon in time for Photokina? 5D2n, 5D3 or the rather unnecessary 2000D? Also, I hope you brought a CF card along, try to shoot test photos using the new lenses on display like the fishy zoom and that overpriced white L zoom. Harangue the Canon reps on when we can see changes in the product planning department . Maeda and Westfall should be also kicked upstairs, hehe. TIA


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## lightingbryan (Sep 21, 2010)

**CR** you said people that participate in a positive way will get a shirt. Do you mean like this: I noticed to tagged this Photokina post as a 1ds mark 4 post. Is this a hint? Did you find something out? Ps I need to know about the possiblity of a new flash. A 680ex? If there is not one at the show I will buy a 580ex ii today!!! Thanks you are amazing


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## Axtstern (Sep 21, 2010)

Some hint for the life after Photokina:

Close to Cologne Central station are 2 Used camera shops, if I remember correct one is under the arches of a small railroad bridge close the train station

Foto Lambertin 

StraÃŸe Wallrafplatz 
PLZ/ Ort 50667 KÃ¶ln 


the other one is here:

FOTO GREGOR GmbH
Neumarkt 32-3450667 KÃ¶ln

Phone: 0221/925766- 11/-33

Open:
Mo.- Fr. 9:30 Uhr - 19:00 Uhr 
Sa. 9:30 Uhr - 18:00 Uhr

For anything Digital these shops are not realy interesting but sometimes they have highly interesting analog dinosaurs from Soviet Rusia or former East Germany. Got a 40 year old 13x18 cm Backplane camera there for arround 50 Euro some time ago.

Oh and a wise word of warning: If you order a beer in a pub in Cologne and it is served in a glass which looks like from a toy kitchen or being made for children hands than it is KÃ¶lsch. The natves in Cologne insist that it is beer but this is highly disputed by the other Germans living not in or arround of Cologne. 

regards


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## richy (Sep 21, 2010)

Would love to know what the 70-300L means for the future of the 100-400L! A raw file from the 120mp would be sweet but I know it wont happen. It would be so nice if canon could give us some idea of their lens roadmap as we would be able to buy with less worry and more accuracy but again it aint happening  

Thanks for keeping us updated and enjoy the show!


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## Stuart (Sep 21, 2010)

Peerke said:


> Did you see that 46 MP foveon X3 sensor on the new Sigma? Talking about resolution on APS-C size!  And the 150 macro with OS. I just bought the one without .


Yeah, love it, but divide by 3 (15.3 Mpixel), as a normal pixel site has RGB in one pixel.

CR Guy were eager to hear what you see and want some Canon surprises


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## richy (Sep 21, 2010)

If sigma have managed to make a true 15mp foveon sensor without stupid noise levels that would be truly awesome. 

I wonder if canon would ever go down that route? not for the 1d but maybe the 1ds? Theres no doubting there is merit in the idea, its just the execution.


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## Peerke (Sep 21, 2010)

> Yeah, love it, but divide by 3 (15.3 Mpixel), as a normal pixel site has RGB in one pixel.



True, but the resolution will be better, the colors will be more accurate, the .... (I almost sound like a Siggy rep., sorry). Read this link to see the differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor#Comparison_to_Bayer_filter_sensors_.E2.80.93_operational_differences

The only thing I don't understand is that the camera only takes CF type I. Curious if Sigma can handle the delivery this time. 
Also a pitty that you can't use good Canon glass on this one. I think with a resolution like that (again it is better than the resolution of a 50D) one need very good glass for optimal results.


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## jius (Sep 21, 2010)

Whats the 60D like for practicality function with the flip-out screen? If the screen is extended out to the left, does it get in the way of your left hand for quick focus adjustments, zooming etc? Or would you have to hold it underneath the lens a little more? I'm thinking if when you are shooting high crowd shots or low level and need to make quick adjustments - does not 'get in the way' a little - or do you not notice any difference. I like the idea of the articulated screen and manual mic so considering this more than the 550D, but still little bit of me thinking 7D.


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## Jan (Sep 21, 2010)

So no 2000D / 1Ds MkIV / 5DMkIII / 3D from Canon... 
I kinda expected this but it's still a little disappointing... :-\


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## Peerke (Sep 21, 2010)

> So no 2000D / 1Ds MkIV / 5DMkIII / 3D from Canon...
> I kinda expected this but it's still a little disappointing...



My thoughts too. I was expecting a surprise, but unfortunately I have to wait until Canon makes me a low noise low MP and low $$ FF camera :.


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## AprilForever (Sep 21, 2010)

I love my old pentax spotmatic. I love that the shutter dial always changes the shutter, the aperture ring on the lens always changes the aperture. And that's about all the buttons there are!The Fuji camera seems to be a welcome step back in this direction. Maybe Canon will make a similar camera ;Da...


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## justingreen19 (Sep 21, 2010)

Only the 60D? What a let down. :-[


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## richy (Sep 21, 2010)

cf type one would only exclude microdrives right? Theyre not really mainstream like they used to be.

As for more mp the better, 15mp is plenty, I'd take awesome color at 15mp over mediocre at 45mp. I never got (beyond the obvious marketing) why siggy made so much out of having all three photosites on top of each other but then quoted the resolution for photosites not pixels. Yes it makes a bit more sense then bayer 'guess the other 2 color technique) but personally I'd love to see them go to bat with this as a 15mp 'full colour' awesome camera. Remember fuji and their two sized pixel malarky, great idea but it was always better at half res then full voodoo res.

So CR guy  any word from canon abt lens announcements, 20-60 2.0 IS please


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## kubelik (Sep 21, 2010)

the fact that the X100 is going to be priced closer to $1K makes a lot more sense ... which is promising, because then Fuji will sells lots of these, and canon will have further impetus to get in on the action in this market segment.

I'm rather impressed by the amount of glass on the SX30 IS ... but a little disappointed that it's using a 1/2.3" rather than 1/1.6" sensor. I know thats how it gets the zoom range, but still ...


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

kubelik said:


> I'm rather impressed by the amount of glass on the SX30 IS ... but a little disappointed that it's using a 1/2.3" rather than 1/1.6" sensor. I know thats how it gets the zoom range, but still ...



Yeah. Great on a sunny day in an open setting. Else, oh the noise, the noise Noise NOISE! (Echoes of Dr. Seuss)...


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## ngiaquinto (Sep 21, 2010)

Are there any special presentations by Nikon or Canon? If so what time. I am curious to see if Nikon releases there supposed "Q" EVIL camera (Doing so would only cause Canon to follow shortly behind, especially before the Holidays).

I'm also praying for a wave of announcements by Canon.

WHERE IS THE 24-70 2.8 IS!? OR Canon EVIL Camera


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## richy (Sep 21, 2010)

Theres normally big leaks in the 24 hrs before launch so I'm guessing we wont be seeing anything big from canon soon  
I dont buy the whole canon doesnt need the 1ds4 as nikon is pants argument because the d3x is a solid camera, I can understand them stretching a cycle to include a new feature or for financial reasons, but by now they have to be starting to think about the 1ds5, the 1ds4 should be pretty much ready to roll. 

As for siggy glass and the foveon sensor, very fair point, fuji uses the nikon mount right? sensible choice, although I can see it would be embarassing for a major glass maker like sigma to use a nikon mount. Sigma glass can be pretty good, the problem is the fact it can also be poor and some of the build quality is abysmal. At least sigma cranking out better sensors pushes canikon to do the same!


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## winsum (Sep 21, 2010)

I've been waiting for months for this event to hear something about 5D MkII and EF 24-70 f2.8 upgrades. Seems like its time to buy the old stuff


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## MadButcher (Sep 21, 2010)

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/photokina2010/Canon/

indeed nothing new 

I seriously thinking about to switch to Nikon (D700), as many pro's did.
The AF of a 5D mk2 is not what I want.


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## danmix (Sep 21, 2010)

what's the conversation around the sigma SD1. with 46mp, and the 50/85 combo, at the right price may cause a move from Canon. Also the schneider TS lens and Samayng 35mm look interesting as well. Do you expect any announcements from Canon at any stage during Photokina


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## richy (Sep 21, 2010)

I cant see a 5d3 coming out before a 1ds4 unless it keeps the same sensor or doesnt have the same sensor as the 1ds4 (unlikely as canon seem to be moving towards minimising the # of sensor designs).

As for moving to Nikon and a d700, its a great camera but often it works out that switching to a 1d4 is abt the same as an upgrade as replacing the canon glass (depending on how much glass you have). Given the costs involved renting or borrowing one to play with would be good  

I am a little shocked that theres been no big announcements so far.

Would love to see a file from the s30, 840mm on a tiny sensor must be nutso quality  

Any chance CR guy can get some shots with the 70-300L @300mm?


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## DeeWee (Sep 21, 2010)

I could be persuaded to contribute positively in exchange for a reward upgrade from the golf shirt to, let's say a Leica M9 body (would provide my own lens), thanks! I promise I will never use it randomly as a p&s camera, fine art portrait and female body studies exclusively...


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## Mr.Magic (Sep 21, 2010)

Come on Canon, why not catch up on Nikon...? Just make a decent FF with low MP -> less noise, and for less money. This is really a disappointment.
I heard in my camera shop various rumours from the sales men (i know, don't trust them), but 1 was always coming back for the last 3 months: Canon would introduce a new FF camera for not that much money after the summer.
Might there still be a possibility of an announcement today, or this evening at Photokina? (Probably I'm still hoping for something that won't come)

What I do like: specs of D7000, 3D lens for new four thirds panasonic, SD1 dslr, sony nex line-up, however, I will conitunue to shoot canon, we all will, won't we


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

MadButcher said:


> indeed nothing new



Not true! There's plenty of new stuff. There's the 60D, the G12, the SX 30, and the S95. And that doesn't even begin to cover it. CRguy didn't even bother to report the great new Canon calculator offerings!!

Oh, wait, you mean there's nothing _exciting_. Well, hard to argue with that... The G12, yawn. The SX 30, gimmicky. The 60D, plasticky, gimmicky, and downgrady. The S95, nice - that's why I just bought one (but it's still not exciting, and I would have bought the S90 if the S95 wasn't out).



MadButcher said:


> The AF of a 5D mk2 is not what I want.



What, you don't like the AF of the original 5D? Canon must like it, they gave it to the 5DII as well. They gave a better AF system to the 40D - so good that they kept it for the 50D and the 60D. Woot. I secretly think the next body from Canon will follow suit from the 50D -> 60D 'upgrade' and they will release a 7DII with a plastic body and the 60D's (I mean, 40D's) AF system. But they'll put a 25 megapixel sensor in it, which will make it soooooooo much better.


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## MLWadester (Sep 21, 2010)

I think the SX30 has some legit advantages. I'm really excited to see the HS in action on it especially at the 840 mm and I'll enjoy seeing how consumers react to the lithium-ion battery.

As for the 60D I think it is a huge disappointment that Canon has really let a lot of people down with. Single SD card slot, plastic body, the fact that you have to push a button in order to turn the selector dial, a back down of 5.3 fps, and the fact that it is the same 9 point AF. I like the articulating screen but who doesn't? Outside of that I think it is a blown up T2i. Pretty unimpressed, overall. I think the fact that the D7000 is coming with dual SD slots, magnesium, 6 fps, 39 AF points, subject tracking AF, and their 2 user settings all for only $100 more. This all before it is even out. I think Canon has really dropped the ball on this one.

For the X100, I like the design. Although I don't think the retailer that I work for will ever have one in stock I would enjoy toying with one. Incredibly surprised by Fuji coming out with something so refreshing.


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## Mr.Magic (Sep 21, 2010)

Actually, we are complaining (and we have our decent reasons to do so), but if you look at Nikon, they also didn't release the successor of the D700, or any full frame camera in general...

It's just that the 60D is not as good as the D7000, but there will be enough potential photogs to use it, as said by CR Guy, it looks really good in ergonomics, the screen, etc!
But for me, it's about FF, which both major camera manufacturers did not release. Well, it might be a disappointment, but Nikonians do have the same situation...

What I also like, is the new SX30, apparantly great IS (what I didn't expect).
Other new compacts: s95 and G12 is just the addition of video, which is also a bit of a disappointment...

Things to remember: No FF at all was released... :-\


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## richy (Sep 21, 2010)

The 60d was always going to be tough to position as the 7d was awesome for very little cost (from a professional perspective, I think I paid 1200 usd after bing cashback and canon rebate) so after giving it a great sensor and the screen they had to criple it somehow. I think if canon are to continue down the road of only having a few sensor designs I would expect them to continue moving product lines about. Lines are somewhat blurred, the 7D wasnt a full step up from the 50D, more a half step, so the xxd range had to take a small hit to make enough distance between it and the 7d for both to sell. I think they made their lives difficult by making the t2i so good (for the money). 
The 5d2 af was half heartedly upgraded from the 5d, but its far from bad. Many pros (myself included) have no issues with it assuming you accept it only has one great af point. That sensor for that $ is awesome, they had to put a semi crippled af in otherwise who would buy the 1ds3? If you want better af the answer is easy, canon already made that camera, the 1ds3. Otherwise moving to Nikon is a valid move assuming you dont have a lot of $ in glass.

Re no (exciting) announcements , very true, I was looking for new glass and new bodies and besides the already announced 60d there wasn't any. 

The fuji had me up until I saw fixed lens. No doubt this is an ideal camera for some people but I would pay an extra $250 for it to have a lens mount and them release a eqivilent 24mm 1.8. 35 1.8, 50 1.4, 85 1.4 and 135 2.0. 
5 lenses and that body could make them some money! Failing that they could make one prime and something like a 24-85 1.8 or 2.0 zoom (oly make 2.0 zooms so not impossible) , then the only thing left is ensuring the af is decent and its a great camera


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 21, 2010)

*Photokina 2010 Continued*


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<p><strong>The bad

<span style="font-weight: normal;">A little unexpectedly, Canon is quite coy with all their new gear.</span></strong></p>
<p>I cannot touch the following stuff (I missed a press event with Canon yesterday). Remember I AM on my honeymoon. :)</p>
<ul>
<li>EF 8-15 Ã‚Â f/4L</li>
<li>EF 70-300 f/4-5.6L IS</li>
<li>EF 300 f/2.8L IS II</li>
<li>EF 400 f/2.8L IS II</li>
</ul>
<p>The 4K Prototype camera is unavailable to see, as is the white concept camera that were at Canon Expo in NYC.</p>
<p><strong>Now onto stuff I can touch</strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
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<div id="attachment_5062" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 585px"><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1002949.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-5062" title="L1002949" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1002949.jpg" alt="" width="575" height="383" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">The Canon Mouse Calculator</p></div>
<p><span style="font-weight: normal;">This this is asÃ‚Â beautifulÃ‚Â in person as it is on the internet. Apparently you can type on the keypad and populate an Excel spreadsheet cell. You psyched? Canon never forgets accountants are people too.</span></p>
<p><strong>The Canon G12</strong></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1003086.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-5064" title="L1003086" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1003086.jpg" alt="" width="575" height="383" /></a>

<span style="font-weight: normal;">I played with the G12 and the P7000 from Nikon. I am giving an unbiased mini-review of the 2 cameras.</span></strong></p>
<p>I much preferred the G12, it’s a far more refined product. It feels better in the hand and is much betterÃ‚Â ergonomically. The Nikon has the feeling of buttons and dials everywhere. If you put the 2 cameras side by side and play around with them. I do believe most people are going to agree.</p>
<p>We’ll have to wait on the image quality showdown.</p>
<p><strong>PowerShot S95

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<p><strong> </strong></p>
<div id="attachment_5065" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 585px"><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1003006.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-5065" title="L1003006" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1003006.jpg" alt="" width="575" height="383" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">I'm going to buy the S95</p></div>
<p><span style="font-weight: normal;">I ran into Are from </span><a href="http://www.akam.no"><span style="font-weight: normal;">www.akam.no</span></a><span style="font-weight: normal;">,Ã‚Â a Norweigan photography web site. He let me play around with his S95 loaner from Canon Norway. I must say Canon has indeed fixed the issue of the rear wheel being too loose. On that alone, I will be buying the S95. I loved the S90 outside of that.</span></p>
<p><strong>More Canon Photos</strong></p>
<p><strong>
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				The Canon Mouse Calculator
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				Howabout when we can buy a Summilux 50?!
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				I’m going to buy the S95
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<p></strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p>More to come later on today. My head is spinning, there’s so much to see!</p>
<p><strong>Leica</strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong></p>
<div id="attachment_5082" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 585px"><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1003016.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-5082" title="L1003016" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/L1003016.jpg" alt="" width="575" height="383" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Howabout when we can buy a Summilux 50?!</p></div>
<p></strong></p>
<p>I will be posting about the Leica booth later today. I was able to play around with the Noctilux as well as a few other M lenses on my wishlist.</p>
<p>Their booth was busy and quite classy.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


----------



## richy (Sep 21, 2010)

I just saw the con't blog. 

Its harsh they wont let you try those lenses, some sites have preproduction sample reviews already. Don't they know who you are lol! Would have loved to see some samples. They must have pretty much finalized the design already as its due to RTM soon right? 

Thanks for all the pictures! Enjoy that honeymoon.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

neuroanatomist said:


> CRguy didn't even bother to report the great new Canon calculator offerings!!



CRguy didn't even bother to report the great new Canon calculator offerings!! I was wrong - he just did. And I must say...WOW! A mouse that's also a calculator. A calculator that's also a mouse. Just...WOW. I am so blown away by this that I don't even know what to say! How many decimal places do I need to express my amazement at this incredible new device from Canon? I tell you, even a 1DsIV priced less than a T2i couldn't beat this new device for the #1 spot in Canon's product line.


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## jmin916 (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Any sense of when the S95 will be available to the public? I've been impatiently awaiting its arrival! ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*



jmin916 said:


> Any sense of when the S95 will be available to the public? I've been impatiently awaiting its arrival! ;D



??? I've had mine for over two weeks...ordered it from Adorama, they had it in stock then. They're out now, but B&H has them...


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## Mellowyellow888 (Sep 21, 2010)

Is there any big announcements planned today?

I'm salivating over the prospects that there will be a 24-75mm IS...


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

Mellowyellow888 said:


> Is there any big announcements planned today?



The calculator-mouse not doing it for you?!?


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## markfoster50 (Sep 21, 2010)

Great report , but am I the only one who feels a little underwhelmed by Canon so far? 
I am the owner of a 5D MK II and a 1ds MKIII and I love the new 8-15mm wide angle zoom but where is the replacement for the 1DS MKIII? I believe that this is now the oldest in their line yet is their top of the range camera. With the improvements made with the later released cameras isnt it about time that we saw those improvements passed onto their top professional camera? And for them not to let you touch the new lenses. shame on you canon!


----------



## Etienne (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

So far not much of interest to me. What would excite me?:

New 50mm 1.4
35 1.4 L mark II (maybe with IS for video)
5DIII or the mythical 3D with improved AF, and wireless flash control built in
A light weight 200mm 2.8L IS or 135 2.0L IS
New flash (680?)


----------



## jmin916 (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

I've been tracking on Amazon and they continue to say "Temporarily out of stock". Also, I figured once the S95 was out, the price of the S90 would drop and that hasn't happened yet...


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## richy (Sep 21, 2010)

markfoster50 said:


> Great report , but am I the only one who feels a little underwhelmed by Canon so far?
> I am the owner of a 5D MK II and a 1ds MKIII and I love the new 8-15mm wide angle zoom but where is the replacement for the 1DS MKIII? I believe that this is now the oldest in their line yet is their top of the range camera. With the improvements made with the later released cameras isnt it about time that we saw those improvements passed onto their top professional camera? And for them not to let you touch the new lenses. shame on you canon!



Couldn't agree more. I realise not everyone is waiting for the same cameras, but I had really hoped for a top end camera and some new glass, or even for some sample shots & reviews of the new glass. I'm working on my budgets for next year and theres a fair chance mamiya / phase one or pentax may get a sizeable chunk of change instead of canon.
Whilst I can't deny I am practically wetting myself at the thought of a calculator mouse to go with my canon coffee mug it would have been great to see one or two more announcements from Canon (or even nikon just to bug canon). 
The 1ds3 is a solid piece of kit but the 5d2 and 7d have some nice features the 1ds3 lacks. The screens alone are a big difference. 
If canon are holding off a 1ds4 to either see what nikon does next or because they think nikon doesnt have anything great they are mistaken. I could swap to a brace of d700's or a d3 and d3x tomorrow and not miss a beat. Nikon going fx (after saying for years it wasn't important) was great for canon users as it pushed canon. Sony make an awesome cheap ff cam but I dont see canon undercutting it, there are basic economies with sensors that size and they will slowly drop in price but Im not expecting a 9d? with say a 14-16mp sensor for 7d money. The 5d2 is too well placed and priced for them to need to go cheaper. A 5d2n is always a possibility! 
Nothing from sony at the show? wonder if canon will revive their pellicle design now sony is 'borrowing' it.


----------



## Justin (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Seeing all those super teles in a row like that makes me want to sell my house. Glad you are there Craig. I'm enjoying your updates. Too bad you can't play with any of the new lenses. Maybe they will bring them out later for people to try. Wish another body or announcement had been made. Oh well. Enjoy all the other cool stuff from Canon's competitors too!


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## del1rium (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Canon Mouse Calculator?  WTF???
What's about 1Ds Mk4?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*



jmin916 said:


> I've been tracking on Amazon and they continue to say "Temporarily out of stock". Also, I figured once the S95 was out, the price of the S90 would drop and that hasn't happened yet...



"Temporarily out of stock" is like pre-ordering. The are getting them in periodically, but shipping out to fulfill already-placed orders, so the item is never actually available for immediate purchase. That's pretty common with popular new products. But it's no more expensive at B&H, shipping is free, and they've got them now. It is definitely a nice little camera - very convenient for those times when I can't bring the 7D and a bag full of lenses.

Also, Richard Franiec just started shipping his grip for the S95...


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 21, 2010)

Man, that new 400/2.8L USM Mark II is awesome. Just saw the pic on DPR, the guy was holding it in one hand and it looked so small, like it was an f/4 prime! Hats off to Canon for the 25% reduction in weight. 8)


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## nocojoe (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

You have pretty hands


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## davidchang (Sep 21, 2010)

I cant wait for your full 60D review! my 50D got stolen (including 3 lenses :'( )and a replacement is overdue.


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## CAT in HAWAII (Sep 21, 2010)

gabriele said:


> Can't wait to hear other news from you! I'm so envy I wanted to be there so bad, but I'm stuck in Italy at the moment.
> I'm really interested in the Canon EF 14-24mm f/2.8L USM and in the Sigma 85mm f/1.4...I try to not be interested in the 24-70 f/2.8L IS USM because I got this year the not IS version.
> Try to get some gadget for us followers and have fun! ;-)


Wow! An I'm "STUCK" in Hawaii,,, ok well, I live here,,, but still
CrWIFE honeymoon,,, wow,,, and she's letting you out of her "site" ,,, ok, couldn't resist,,, 

Anyway, good reports so far,,, I noticed nothing on the "new camera", so,,, we wait! 
Have an awesome time!!!!


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## Son of Daguerre (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Regarding the *X Mark I Mouse*, when are we _Amerikaner_s going to get it?! :-[

As for the G12 vs. P7000, I think the Nikon model looks a bit anorexic, and I want heft, coming from the 1.3lb SX10 IS... debating between G12 and GF1 with a kit lens.

And I live in New York - I need that hoodie :-*


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## Son of Daguerre (Sep 21, 2010)

The 60D looks kinda nice. Craig, how's the weight compare to the 7D? I've got NM, you see.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

Son of Daguerre said:


> The 60D looks kinda nice. Craig, how's the weight compare to the 7D? I've got NM, you see.



Based on the specs, the 60D is about 5 oz lighter than the 7D. Maybe _that's_ why Canon decided to leave out AF Microadjustment from the 60D feature set - to save weight...


----------



## CameraAddict (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

The S95 is available at places like Best Buy. I saw one at the store on Wednesday.

Apparently, it's not widely available yet...


----------



## CameraAddict (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Just wondering, CR. Have you ever seen a Nikon product that you thought was better than the Canon product? ;-).

An "unbiased" comparison of the 60D versus the D7000 would be interesting!


----------



## Son of Daguerre (Sep 21, 2010)

neuroanatomist said:


> Based on the specs, the 60D is about 5 oz lighter than the 7D. Maybe _that's_ why Canon decided to leave out AF Microadjustment from the 60D feature set - to save weight...



Ho-hum. I've used the 7D and it is a bit heavy (the guy who owned it had a BG-E7 on it, which added a bit of weight). Thank God for autofocus. It's not impossibly heavy for me (I held it with a 580EX II, and that was kinda uneasy), but if the 60D was noticeably lighter, I'd consider it.

I can check out the specs meself, Doc  I wanted to know if it _felt_ much lighter...

But thanks. :


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

Son of Daguerre said:


> I can check out the specs meself, Doc  I wanted to know if it _felt_ much lighter...
> 
> But thanks. :



LOL, well, I'd guess it _feels_ about 5 oz lighter.  Seriously, though, since the weight difference isn't huge, how it feels is going to depend a lot on the ergonomics of the body in your hands, right? Your best bet is to grab ahold of one and see for yourself. Adorama has them in stock, so Best Buy and local brick-and-mortar stores won't be too far behind...


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## Son of Daguerre (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*



CameraAddict said:


> Just wondering, CR. Have you ever seen a Nikon product that you thought was better than the Canon product? ;-).
> 
> An "unbiased" comparison of the 60D versus the D7000 would be interesting!



Trust me, we'll have it.


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## Son of Daguerre (Sep 21, 2010)

neuroanatomist said:


> LOL, well, I'd guess it _feels_ about 5 oz lighter.  Seriously, though, since the weight difference isn't huge, how it feels is going to depend a lot on the ergonomics of the body in your hands, right? Your best bet is to grab ahold of one and see for yourself. Adorama has them in stock, so Best Buy and local brick-and-mortar stores won't be too far behind...



Ah, Adorama has 'em? Maybe I'll take a 30-minute ride to Manhattan.


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 21, 2010)

richy said:


> As for siggy glass and the foveon sensor, very fair point, fuji uses the nikon mount right? sensible choice, although I can see it would be embarassing for a major glass maker like sigma to use a nikon mount.



Fuji didn't just use an F mount, they bought bodies from Nikon. The Fuji S5 Pro is a Nikon D200 with Fuji sensor and electronics. The Fuji S2 Pro was based on the Nikon N80.


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## MintMark (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a comparison that includes the new Panasonic GH2 as a smaller option. I'd like to see whether the image quality is comparable.


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## olav (Sep 21, 2010)

Maybe Canon waits for the end of Photokina to show the 1ds mk4!
ihope that they renew their flagship soon, since it it isn't the best anymore.
And it's sad that yyyyou don't get to play with their lenses or save pictures on your card, makes me almost think their afraid of the results if people take a quick shot without really knowing the camera.


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## Grendel (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*



jmin916 said:


> Any sense of when the S95 will be available to the public? I've been impatiently awaiting its arrival! ;D


Huh ? Bought one three weeks ago at my local dealers (Oregon Camera). 5% cash discount 

Calculator mouse, eh ? Very usefull... How much is it, $500 ?


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## Son of Daguerre (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*



MintMark said:


> Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a comparison that includes the new Panasonic GH2 as a smaller option. I'd like to see whether the image quality is comparable.



GH2 ain't too small, buddy!


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## tzalmagor (Sep 21, 2010)

Canon has already announced five lenses to be released this year (70-200mm f/2.8 IS II, 70-300mm f/4-5.6L, fisheye zoom, and upgrades to 300mm & 400mm primes), and made early announcements on the 400mm & 500mm primes to be released next year.

I'm uncertain why Canon didn't wait with the announcements for Photokina, but based on the last decade, five lenses is on par for Canon, so I would think any additional lens announcements at Photokina would be a surprise, rather than the expected.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

tzalmagor said:


> ...based on the last decade, five lenses is on par for Canon, so I would think any additional lens announcements at Photokina would be a surprise, rather than the expected.



Wait, wait - you mean that they _aren't_ going to announce a 24-70mm f/2.8L IS?!??!? I thought that was 'for sure, take it to the bank...'


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## that1guy (Sep 21, 2010)

Kind of a bummer w/ them being coy. Is there going to be another announcement later in the show perhaps? 

Ohh, and have you gotten to check out the Schneider lenses for Canon yet?

I saw you got to hold the S95. Thanks for letting us know that they fixed the wheel...good news!


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## backshot_especiale (Sep 21, 2010)

The new Fuji looks great and it's in my price range, if it is around Â£1000. Its my favorite field of view to shoot with too, just wide enough to give a different perspective to what you see with the eye. There is beauty in keeping things simple, clean and functional.

I really like the look of the new layout to the G12 it gets more fun to use each revision since the G7, which has served me very well mine even went for a dip in the sea and still works. I'd really like to see what Canon could do with some development on lens(es?) for a G12s. 

Whatever next? Digital Medium Format rangefinder anyone? It'd be well out of what I could afford but I'm sure people that could would love one.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 21, 2010)

BTW, CRguy, thanks for the quick note on the SX 30 IS - it did seem gimmicky, but that's based on spec and _assumptions_ about real-world performance. If the 840mm end is good, that makes the camera a lot more interesting! Canon's restriction on inserting a memory card for a quick test bites, I must say. 

This is one heck of a lot of glass!


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## kubelik (Sep 21, 2010)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Man, that new 400/2.8L USM Mark II is awesome. Just saw the pic on DPR, the guy was holding it in one hand and it looked so small, like it was an f/4 prime! Hats off to Canon for the 25% reduction in weight. 8)



noticed that too ... that's awesome. it's going to be a wallet-buster, and unfortunately it will probably be worth the price (which makes it even harder to say no to)


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## MintMark (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*



Son of Daguerre said:


> MintMark said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a comparison that includes the new Panasonic GH2 as a smaller option. I'd like to see whether the image quality is comparable.
> ...



Looks pretty small in this image compared to a 60D (from the gh2 preview on dpreview)... just over half the weight too.

http://a.img-dpreview.com/previews/PanasonicdmcGH2/images/comparedto60d.jpg

I realise it's not as small as the GF1 or Sonys, but it's got the new sensor and I want to see how the images compare.


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## Fairbanks (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Huh?  "EF 8-15 f/2.8L" I'm pretty sure it's EF 8-15 f/4L. The stop-darker lens makes me care very little about upgrading my 15mm 2.8 fisheye.


----------



## Canon 14-24 (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Do you think we'll still see any new announcements of SLRs or lenses?


----------



## Peerke (Sep 21, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Did you really fly al the way from Canada to Colone to see all of this great Canon stuff?  I hope you will have fun on the other stands.

What a disappointing day (lets make it a disappointing year). Well, at least it was good for my wallet and I can save a bit more for my dream low noise, not so much MP, low cost FF wonder camera from our Canon friends.


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## cal_gecko (Sep 21, 2010)

Very interested in some real world reviews of the 60D .. I was anxiously waiting for one with the hopes of taking it with me on a trip to Alaska last month.. but due to the delayed release, I ended up going with a 7D instead.. I'm now wondering if I should sell the 7D and get the 60D if it has pretty much all the same (and more) features.. ? The SX also looks very interesting and potentially tempting, for when I don't feel like lugging around a DSLR. Thanks for the consistently awesome reviews!


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## that1guy (Sep 22, 2010)

cal_gecko said:


> Very interested in some real world reviews of the 60D .. I was anxiously waiting for one with the hopes of taking it with me on a trip to Alaska last month.. but due to the delayed release, I ended up going with a 7D instead.. I'm now wondering if I should sell the 7D and get the 60D if it has pretty much all the same (and more) features.. ? The SX also looks very interesting and potentially tempting, for when I don't feel like lugging around a DSLR. Thanks for the consistently awesome reviews!



I would keep the 7D. It is a far better camera on a few levels, and with the hit (albeit probably small) that you will take when you sell it, you might only get $100-200 back in your pocket and be stuck with a camera that is not as good. Just keep it and go take pictures  Enjoy!


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 22, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

There's a lot of neat stuff there, quite a few cameras on show for the sub-DSLR-price crowd. Though I wonder if they couldn't actually do something smaller and more integrated - from a business perspective, Canon probably would point to the shaky phone shot and say "see, he needed a S95" but it's still extra bulk. It would be interesting to see if Canon and Nikon would get into the phone market somehow - perhaps designing modules for other manufacturer's phones, not sure. A good camera phone with sensible controls, IS, and a large sensor would be a great idea I think. Sony has a good foot in the door anyway.

Out of everything shown there (aside from the 60D obviously) I'm probably most excited about that calculator mouse. Granted I don't use spreadsheets all that much, but it would be handy for the times I do. Bye-bye Microsoft Calculator! I'd need to be able to plug it into a front USB plug of my computer though...haven't looked into using multiple mice at once.


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## sampsonphoto (Sep 22, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Just wanted to say thanks for being the eyes and ears of Photokina for those of use that can't make it in person. 

Since any exciting new announcements by Canon seem unlikely, I'd love to hear more about Fuji's X100, which seems to be a show stealer in my opinion, at least from the photos and videos I have seen of it. 

Also, I think I seen a couple of images of the newer Canon 300 & 400mm lenses on display. Any chance you will get a hands on with these to tell us about how they feel compared to the older versions?

Thanks again, and happy Honeymoon!


----------



## richy (Sep 22, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

It looks like canon has all the toys locked away. Thats really poor. 

CRGuy, is there anything from the MFD crowd, like a pentax 645d to play with? or the newer hassie backs? Did the Leica booth have the s2 to play with?


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## DJL329 (Sep 22, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

Honeymoon, shmoneymoon ... get to work! 

Tell Canon we want a new 50mm EF f/1.4!


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## unfocused (Sep 22, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

I'd sure like to hear some reports about what lenses Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, etc. are showing. 

What's this new Sigma 120-300 mm 2.8 sigma look like? 

Please ask the Tokina people if the 100-400 IS lens will ever materialize.

And what's the story with these Samyang lenses?


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## richy (Sep 22, 2010)

that1guy said:


> cal_gecko said:
> 
> 
> > Very interested in some real world reviews of the 60D .. I was anxiously waiting for one with the hopes of taking it with me on a trip to Alaska last month.. but due to the delayed release, I ended up going with a 7D instead.. I'm now wondering if I should sell the 7D and get the 60D if it has pretty much all the same (and more) features.. ? The SX also looks very interesting and potentially tempting, for when I don't feel like lugging around a DSLR. Thanks for the consistently awesome reviews!
> ...



Definately keep the 7d. Unless you have a real need for the articulated screen, since you already have the 7d its not worth changing. Its not like the difference in price would buy a decent lens. It might not even get you a midrange flash.


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## richy (Sep 22, 2010)

http://www.ronmartblog.com/2010/09/canon-shows-off-1ds-mark-iv-photo-at.html

FWIW not sure if its been mentioned here before but heres a picture from a 1ds4  Just need the specs now lol


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## tzalmagor (Sep 22, 2010)

neuroanatomist said:


> tzalmagor said:
> 
> 
> > ...based on the last decade, five lenses is on par for Canon, so I would think any additional lens announcements at Photokina would be a surprise, rather than the expected.
> ...



As I stated before (though I don't recall using the words 'for sure, take it to the bank...') I think Canon will, only *next* year.


----------



## size (Sep 22, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Continued*

I think it's a mistake :
It is the 8-15 F4 L USM 

I'm waiting for it....


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## DeeWee (Sep 22, 2010)

*Re: Photokina 2010 Report Continued*

Thanks for covering a bit of Leica show, that was classy


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 22, 2010)

tzalmagor said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > tzalmagor said:
> ...



Yeah, I was being sarcastic. Sorry! But I do recall the same thing (they'll release it *next* year) being said in 2009...


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## tzalmagor (Sep 22, 2010)

neuroanatomist said:


> tzalmagor said:
> 
> 
> > As I stated before (though I don't recall using the words 'for sure, take it to the bank...') I think Canon will, only *next* year.
> ...



Not by me.


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## peejay (Sep 22, 2010)

This is really so disappointing.

I've been holding off making a decision to buy a camera because the 1ds life cycle is due. I've been renting and wasting money. Right now I really think Canon sucks - time for me to jump to Medium Format Digital I think.

Surely, there's no way that they'd make an announcement at the end of the show and lose out on the exposure. Corporate a-holes don't do surprises bigger than calculator mouses. Their blood is too thick, cold and slimy.


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## richy (Sep 22, 2010)

Ah well, I guess thats it, back to waiting. Whens the next likely time for announcements? Next Feb?

Thanks to Mrs CR guy for letting him attend PK on your honeymoon. 

I guess since no 1ds4 (besides a picture taken on one) its time to test the s2 against the h4d40 and the phaseone 645. Anybody got experience of these?


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## richy (Sep 22, 2010)

peejay said:


> This is really so disappointing.
> 
> I've been holding off making a decision to buy a camera because the 1ds life cycle is due. I've been renting and wasting money. Right now I really think Canon sucks - time for me to jump to Medium Format Digital I think.
> 
> Surely, there's no way that they'd make an announcement at the end of the show and lose out on the exposure. Corporate a-holes don't do surprises bigger than calculator mouses. Their blood is to thick and slimy.



I'm thinking the same, posted the same time as you! Looking to use it for studio / outdoor portraits / wedding formals etc. Which way you leaning? Leica, hassie, leaf, contax or P1?

I'm begining to think central shutter is a must, syncing at 1/800 - 1/1600 and being able to work in film is great. 

I know the 1ds4 would be more flexible but I can keep my current dslrs for flexibility and add the mfd when its easiest to do so.


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## that1guy (Sep 22, 2010)

Thanks for checking out the Schneider lenses. Man, they are huge! Did they give you any kind of estimated price on those things?

All I have to say about Sigma is "wow." That is crazy that they didn't know what one of their own products was. It's funny, your experience with their people matches my experience with their products; hit or miss. It's a shame really, as they do have some neat technology. Did they have any sample prints from that new 15'ish MP Foveon camera (SD1 I believe)? If so, what did you think of them?


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 22, 2010)

richy said:


> Many pros (myself included) have no issues with it assuming you accept it only has one great af point. That sensor for that $ is awesome, they had to put a semi crippled af in otherwise who would buy the 1ds3?



Nikon doesn't seem to have any problem with using the same metering and auto focus on ALL their pro cameras. Why can't Canon do the same? Why can't the 7D have the same focus and metering as a 1D IV? If they did this than the 60D could have the improved focus developed for the 7D (if the 7D had 1D IV focus) and the T2i could use the 40D focus. Three segments - consumer, prosumer and pro. Nikon only has two segments - consumer with SD cards and Pro with CF cards and the best metering and focus.

I'd buy a fully pro 5D MII over a 1Ds III because of lighter weight, while others would buy 1Ds III because of tougher build. Nikon gives you the choice between a D700 and a D3s, and both sell well! But it seems like I'll have to buy the D700 replacement (D800?) if I want a Pro Camera in a Small Body, because Canon has stopped listening to their customers who aren't interested in V-DSLRs.


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## J (Sep 22, 2010)

I emailed Canon USA about the AWESOME calculator mouse. Here is their reply:



> Dear [name removed]:
> 
> Thank you for contacting Canon product support. We value you as a Canon
> customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you with your
> ...



It's too bad. I might have to import one from Canon UK, where it looks like they will carry it. I think it would be a great nerd gift. I personally could use it in my day job...


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 22, 2010)

richy said:


> I'm thinking the same, posted the same time as you! Looking to use it for studio / outdoor portraits / wedding formals etc. Which way you leaning? Leica, hassie, leaf, contax or P1?
> 
> I'm begining to think central shutter is a must, syncing at 1/800 - 1/1600 and being able to work in film is great.
> 
> I know the 1ds4 would be more flexible but I can keep my current dslrs for flexibility and add the mfd when its easiest to do so.



Schneider is making a Tilt Shift for the Phase One/Mamiya, here's the brochure http://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/Schneider-120mm-TS.pdf One more reason to move to MF digital/film.

Last years CaNikon with this years MF would make a good combo. If you have never shot tethered into Phase One Capture One you have no idea what you are missing (C1 works with DSLRs too).


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## peejay (Sep 22, 2010)

richy said:


> peejay said:
> 
> 
> > This is really so disappointing.
> ...



Sucks don't it?

Not sure. I'm not particularly enamored by any of the cameras, except for the Leica S2. Pricey though, right?

I like the Hasselblad, I've found a very decent price on an HD3-39 but I'm not sure about the closed system and I prefer the look of the files form the Phase backs which I've used a fair bit. The Hasselblad H System I like but I'm not so sure of the backs...

It's looking like the Mamiya/Phase option I think, Or a V series Blad, but I would rather AF. I find the Mamiya a rather dull and uninspiring camera. The contax 645 was/is nice, but I don't want to invest in a redundant system. Blad V Series seems like a safe choice but I really could do with AF and a zoom...not that AF speed is that quick on the MF cameras, but it's nice to have the accuracy (hopefully) hat AF gives.

The Leaf AFi was a very interesting and a really possible route, shame it didn't work out. I've used the Leaf backs a fair bit though and find the colour and tone flat in comparison to the Phase backs.

So, I think it needs to be a Phase back but I'm not convinced by any one camera system yet. Shame when the system is a rather hefty investment.

I hate decisions like this, but I'm not waiting any longer for this damn Canon camera. And the extra I will spend I will gain in quality so I'm fine with that and I need to invest for tax reasons too.

So with all that in mind...I have no idea.

And you? What system do you like and are drawn too?


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## peejay (Sep 22, 2010)

c.d.embrey said:


> Last years CaNikon with this years MF would make a good combo. If you have never shot tethered into Phase One Capture One you have no idea what you are missing (C1 works with DSLRs too).



You're right. Capture One is nice to use, but for Canon, the results are far greater shooting tethered into DPP. It just looks how it's suppose to. I don't like the way Capture One renders the Canon files, flatter, off colour, depending of corse which shooting profile you are using.

Shame DPP is such a slug to use.


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 22, 2010)

peejay said:


> You're right. Capture One is nice to use, but for Canon, the results are far greater shooting tethered into DPP. It just looks how it's suppose to. I don't like the way Capture One renders the Canon files, flatter, off colour, depending of corse which shooting profile you are using.
> 
> Shame DPP is such a slug to use.



I have no problem getting a look the client likes with C1. But I do like DPP, and do use it to convert/correct some things I shoot on location. Too bad that Canon hasn't put the effort into developing what could be a really superior program.


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## gabriele (Sep 23, 2010)

About the new Sigma 85mm f/1.4...I've read what you wrote and this is the second time they behave like this!
When I went to the italian Photoshow there was the Sigma stand and they said they didn't know ANYTHING
about a Sigma 85mm f/1.4...I don't get how it is possible that other people know more than people working
at Sigma...maybe they hire people just for the show?
I mean before it was just presented but not on their website but now it's there they should, they must know
anything about it and it's so weird that they didn't even present it officially at Photokina, I really don't get it! :-\


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## peejay (Sep 23, 2010)

c.d.embrey said:


> peejay said:
> 
> 
> > You're right. Capture One is nice to use, but for Canon, the results are far greater shooting tethered into DPP. It just looks how it's suppose to. I don't like the way Capture One renders the Canon files, flatter, off colour, depending of corse which shooting profile you are using.
> ...



No, nor I. But I find after tweaking the Capture One file to look like the DPP file, the quality takes a slight dip. Detail in shadow and highlight is never the same. DPP just works. But I've devised a system that bypasses DPP for editing and viewing just purely for ease of use.


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## richy (Sep 23, 2010)

Re nikon af, its the same af sensor but the motors arent as good on the d3 and to make it fair you need to understand that the difference between the d700 and d3 doesnt need to be as big as the difference between the 5d2 and 1ds3 because the price difference isnt as great. Canon could have done it but my bet is marketing and the bean counters decided that hobbling the 1ds3 sensor was win win compared to say producing a 5d2 with maybe 16mp and better af because its a marketing win to offer 21mp @ that price and a manufacturing win because they are using stuff already in the parts bin. Canon chose to go great hi res sensor and mediocre af, nikon chose a mediocre res (not disrespecting the quality of it) sensor and great af. Neither put all their best stuff in the midrange cameras nor will they normally go toe to toe. The d3 isnt a 1ds3, the d3x is what it lines up against. The d3 goes up against the 1d3/4. The 1d4 puts more pixels on a given target, the d3 is cleaner for a given 100x100 pixel grid. The actual affect of the noise increase isn't much because the pixels themselves are smaller, people rant about how a 12mp sensor is better then a 24 for noise but make two equal size prints and see, whilst the variance per pixel will be higher @ 24mp the impact of that variance will be lower on a pixel basis as the pixels are smaller. I'm not saying canons way is better or worse, its just a different approach which does have merit. Once you see 16x20 prints from both the difference in noise is minimal (but it is there, although you are into noise vs pixelation).

Re tethering, tried it with dslrs, its alright but not normally something id do outside of product shots. The closed vs open debate is interesting, I can see the logic in the closed system as its hopefully easier to avoid compatibility issues. the new $13k 31mp hassie might be a game changer. The markets getting interesting in the 10k range and those top flight dslrs will have to make some jumps to keep in that price range.


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## peejay (Sep 23, 2010)

Oh wow, that HD4 31 changes things....

Canon better make a move or there's no contest.


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## richy (Sep 23, 2010)

exactly  1d4 shooters wouldnt switch but 1ds4 buyers are prime targets. Admittedly you are probably still looking at spending 40-50k to get 2 bodies, accessories and lenses, but thats down a lot from a few years ago where to do it properly you needed 90-140k.


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 23, 2010)

peejay said:


> Oh wow, that HD4 31 changes things....
> 
> Canon better make a move or there's no contest.



Prices are coming down fast. The Mamiya DM 22 with Leaf back is *$9,995.00*. With22 megapixel sensor, and true 16 bit/channel Raw files will give better images than 1Ds III or Nikon D3x for not much more money. BTW the DM 22 comes with a 80mm f/2.8 D Series Lens. 

What will the 1Ds IV or Nikon D4 cost? Are the prices staying the same, going up or going down?


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## Ronaldo (Sep 23, 2010)

Tokina AT-X 17-35 F4 Pro FX


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 24, 2010)

c.d.embrey said:


> What will the 1Ds IV or Nikon D4 cost? Are the prices staying the same, going up or going down?


Compared to that DM 22, downward, which is all that matters. The battle is increasingly being waged and won in 35mm format - what used to be 35mm format territory is now being won by even cell phone cameras. I'm not sure what the point of that Mamiya - Leaf combination is. You get just a 22mp sensor made with older technology, a bigger box than a DSLR, and lenses even heavier, with less utility, and more expensive than full-frame ones made by 35mm format manufacturers.


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## richy (Sep 24, 2010)

Edwin Herdman said:


> c.d.embrey said:
> 
> 
> > What will the 1Ds IV or Nikon D4 cost? Are the prices staying the same, going up or going down?
> ...



You get a sensor over twice the size. This affects things like DOF and voodoo micro contrast. You also get 16bit, true 16 bit not padded 14 bit, no AA filter!! You also get a different approach. I'm not a huge rangefinder fan because the lenses dont suit me, but when you talk to RF fans about why they spend 10x the cost of a dslr on a camera with less features they usually talk about how it makes you see and how it changes the way you shoot. I shoot an rz67 from time to time and have done for years, and the fact that you don't just blast away with it does change your shooting. Having a huge ass WLF is awesome as well. I'm not saying that plonking a 1ds next to a dm22 is going to be a hands down win every time to the dm22, but the point is that its a different approach and for some people and some uses it is better. 
The big thing for everyone here is that whilst there has been a degradation of the pricing in low and mid range dslrs there hasn't really in the 1 series. Having the pressure of MFD will either force a price shift or it will force some serious evolution of the cameras. The 1ds is vulnerable, its not mainly a sports camera, its a studio camera primarily which is one area the mamiyas would do very well against it. Tethered with great lighting the mamiya would deliver amazing quality files. As for weddings and events, then you are looking at 9k for a canon or 13k for a hassie, now thats a serious question whereas before it was 9k or 40k. This can only be good!!


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 24, 2010)

richy said:


> I'm not saying that plonking a 1ds next to a dm22 is going to be a hands down win every time to the dm22, but the point is that its a different approach and for some people and some uses it is better.


My point is still that when people describe the "allure" or "feeling" of MF, gut or otherwise, I can't help but think there's nothing concrete to MF's credit over 35mm, besides 100mm+ lenses being considered close to normal. There's been a huge gap in quality between APS-C and 35mm "full frame" sensors for years, but the medium format companies don't have the systems integrated, or (from what I understand) designed - even, according to a number of folks, the R&D put in the sensors themselves - well enough to do much more than keep pace with 35mm cameras in terms of image quality, let alone in features. True 16-bit? Man, feels like the early 1990s again.

In any case, slow is not the goal of photography. Instantaneous is. If I want slow I plonk on the TS-E and compose through the viewfinder (curse you, Canon, for not letting it focus past infinity!), and focus with Live View - that's plenty slow for me. I almost did that tonight in the dark, though I just slapped the focus to infinity and bracketed some shots. Of maybe 95% of my photography recently (which is pretty non-serious at this point), a third are still life (stuff for eBay, a frog sitting on a chair outside), and two thirds are straight architectural / landscape. So yeah, I do slow already, and I don't like slow as a goal of technique - being an artist means, to me, that you sometimes get a flash of inspiration and by the time I've fetched my camera enough time may have passed that the moment to frame what I've seen is gone. I don't like fiddlefarting around with the autofocus - sometimes yes, sometimes no - on my T1i, and I don't like the thought of spending a hundred Benjamins on a system which it is not clear has a system as up to date, just because Live View has become standard and I should manually focus. I would rather have the option and keep my money. Older methods shouldn't be forced in any situation. (I'm sure I'm showing off my MF ignorance a fair deal here; I'm trying to be balanced, but I've seen and heard enough to be fairly certain that MF systems are years behind 35mm ones, in specifics and in general.) To be sure, I agree with the "start simple" method of learning photography (95% of all my pictures have been done with two primes, the TS-E and the 50mm f/1.4, which I shot exclusively when starting out; just as importantly, I started with a relatively simple camera), but that's something different.

We can talk about studio photographers, but a 35mm camera gives somebody an edge in freedom of motion. That is a monetary proposition. Who wants to be stuck inside when you can be outside, anyway? Being stuck to a studio - tethered to a computer like the bad old days of scanning backs - immediately puts such a system at a disadvantage in locking out event / wedding photographers, who are very close in some ways to a studio photographer (imo) and more likely to do have business interests in both fields. If anything I think it's more likely for a person to be a traveling photographer with a studio business on the side, rather than the other way around. There isn't any reason there cannot be a camera that suits their needs in the studio and in the field.



> The big thing for everyone here is that whilst there has been a degradation of the pricing in low and mid range dslrs there hasn't really in the 1 series. Having the pressure of MFD will either force a price shift or it will force some serious evolution of the cameras.


I think the evidence is pretty clear that DSLRs have cut the knees out from under the MF market, and now they're working on the stumps. A $3K premium for no apparent benefit in functionality on old-fashioned bodies that seem (almost channeling Ken Rockwell there) based on 20 year old designs and late-adoption leftovers from DSLR design, and which furthermore don't really seem to provide knockout quality (on average) compared to 35mm format with all the new bells and whistles, doesn't seem a good overall investment to me. Medium Format does more than respectably well in DxOMark, but when cameras (or I should say backs) are released that infrequently, your investment and competitiveness with cameras that are much more up-to-date are endangered by the end of the term more than if you had bought a cheaper DSLR body.

Simple economic sense would seem to validate your claim that this pressure - and expanded options - is good for the market, but consider: MF buyers recently seem to have been faced (from what I gather) with the most uncertain future in assured supplies of equipment, with most MF manufacturers going out of business yet still likely employing experts in the field who would be assets to 35mm development. Who wants to buy into MF when it's uncertain that the manufacturer will survive from this year to the next?

There was a lot of clucking in certain quarters about video on DSLRs, and there still are many problems with it, but people are putting it to good use, and finding new excitement and new blood in photography than ever before (and the numbers on the explosion of EOS DSLRs confirms this). The 35mm manufacturers seem to be inundated with requests for new features like never before, and compromises may start to become fewer as the 35mm market is trending towards professionals and enthusiasts. In some ways it seems like a continuation of the split between point and shoot 35mm cameras and SLRs from some years ago; a 35mm SLR never really could be underspecced compared to a point-and-shoot, or overspecced compared to any other 35mm camera; the major differences mainly were the results of mechanical differences, like interchangeable lenses, film winders even.

But now even 35mm format cameras are fighting to stay relevant when even point-and-shoot cameras can have sophisticated movie modes and other features - cell phones are following quickly. You don't need a winder anymore to take rapid bursts of pictures. I think the energy is coming from the bottom of the price range on up, and certainly price competition follows as well. Canon whet my appetite with the T1i, and now they've got me suckered into looking at upgrading already. This is what we've seen play out with the D7000 versus the 60D: a "lower tier" camera introduction was seen popularly as a victory against a the latest offering in a repositioned formerly semipro line. I have argued against too much focus on the cyclical updates causing people to spend too much money on cheap cameras, but at least users have the option of setting their own update cycled. You can update every year if you need to (and have a plan to justify it, like selling the old model) or you can update every three. This is pretty good compared to most MF systems where your next upgrade will be never, because the manufacturers have closed up shop.

Sorry for the extreme length of the post, and for anything unfair I said.


----------



## richy (Sep 24, 2010)

Nothing unfair 
35mm has oodles of functionality that MF doesn't have and for a lot of photography thats a deal breaker. Sorry if my ridiculing myself over the benefits of MF didnt come through enough  Many tech heads talk about microcontrast and 16bits when defending MFD, beyond no AA filter I have no idea why there is a difference. Most of my experience is MF film not the digital side, I do shoot 35mm digital (hence me being on a canon forum lol) and lots of my income comes from what that digital can do. You are entirely correct that it gives so much freedom that you lose with MF. However, for some forms of photography there are still some advantages to MF. If I chose to buy something it comes out of my pocket and therefore my kids pockmets yet I keep a 6x7 system because it can give great results. Canon have been saying they have slayed MF for years but theyre still designing new MF cameras. Sure theyre smaller companies and there has been market contraction, but MF has one important irrefuteable advantage. The sensor or film is much larger therefore more light for digital pixels. I wouldnt be considering dropping 40k on a system if i didnt think it was worth it, i would be shooting with a $20 zenit if i thought it would deliver results lol.
For landscapes and ever portraits MF is great, despite what people say they are handholdable, and syncing at 800 or 1600 is awesome. HSS doesnt cut it. Its at best a bodge job. Really syncing at 1/800 is awesome. 
As a wedding tog all I can say is I like how things are heading and canon are going to lose my money to mamiya. The 5d2 and 7d offer me enough to get that side of the job done, if 2xmfd is going to be in the same ballpark as a brace of 1ds4's then awesome. 
I'm not attempting to convert anyone else but I love the best of both worlds.
On the upgrade front, the systems are pretty robust to that, I dont see the mamiya p1 system dieing out in the next 10 years and part of the attraction is the longevity. I might have killed my dslrs within 12 months of shooting but the mf kit is running smooth 8 years later without any maintenance. contax 645 is dead, pentax i wouldnt bet on but mamiya and hassie should be around for a while.
Its also worthwhile considering why leica went doubleframe with the s2. The af is much better as well these days so thats some added functionality.


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## richy (Sep 24, 2010)

Sorry just reread.

The goal of photography is instantaneous? Do you feel thats universal? Its an interesting statement and Im not questioning the validity of it. Its just totally different to how I view the goal. 

Re tethering, it depends on the situation, it can be quite liberating knowing you can be seeing the work on a calibrated 30inch monitor as you are shooting, but primarily the benefits come down to making life easier. I love being a photographer, but i love it more when its easier! 

Plus its optional tethering, you can when you want, or you can tether 'in the wild' to a laptop or you can shoot on the back. Its just added flexibility. I find myself tethering the dslrs more for landscape stuff these days.


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 24, 2010)

Edwin Herdman said:


> ..., I can't help but think there's nothing concrete to MF's credit over 35mm, ... well enough to do much more than keep pace with 35mm cameras in terms of image quality, let alone in features.



What CaNikon has a 53.9x40.4 mm 60.5mp sensor ? 



> ...(I'm sure I'm showing off my MF ignorance a fair deal here; I'm trying to be balanced, but I've seen and heard enough to be fairly certain that MF systems are years behind 35mm ones, in specifics and in general.)



Many times the focus sensor isn't where you want it to be, so you focus and recompose. The problem is that after you have focused on the eye and recomposed the focus is off slightly. Well the Hasselblad True Focus refines the focus using a yaw sensor. Read about it here http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/apl.aspx Does CaNikon have anything like this?



> We can talk about studio photographers, but a 35mm camera gives somebody an edge in freedom of motion.



Ever shoot with a medium format camera? I prefer a Medium Format over a CaNikon Pro Body (with built-in grip). I find them more ergonomic. But a 5D or D700 is better than both.



> I think the evidence is pretty clear that DSLRs have cut the knees out from under the MF market, and now they're working on the stumps.



A lot of Pros disagree with you. MFD sales are good.



> A $3K premium for no apparent benefit in functionality ... furthermore don't really seem to provide knockout quality (on average) compared to 35mm format with all the new bells and whistles, doesn't seem a good overall investment to me ...



Once again, have you ever used a MFD? If you haven't how do you know that your statements are true? BTW the wants/needs vary from photographer and many Pros think MFD is a good investment YMMV.



> Simple economic sense would seem to validate your claim that this pressure - and expanded options - is good for the market, but consider: MF buyers recently seem to have been faced (from what I gather) with the most uncertain future ...Who wants to buy into MF when it's uncertain that the manufacturer will survive from this year to the next?



Fuji owns Hasselblad and isn't going anywhere. BTW Fuji released a MF Film camera last year, an it is selling well. Phase One owns Mamiya and Leaf, it isn't going anywhere either. 

BTW Leica has their new S2, so I guess they think the MFD market will survive. And Pentax announced at Photokina that the 645D will be available worldwide. 



> ... In some ways it seems like a continuation of the split between point and shoot 35mm cameras and SLRs from some years ago; a 35mm SLR never really could be underspecced compared to a point-and-shoot ...



Terry Richardson and Juergen Teller made their reputations using Film P&S cameras. Nothing wrong with a P&S if you have something to say and talent.



> But now even 35mm format cameras are fighting to stay relevant when even point-and-shoot cameras can have sophisticated movie modes and other features - cell phones are following quickly. ... This is pretty good compared to most MF systems where your next upgrade will be never, because the manufacturers have closed up shop.
> 
> Sorry for the extreme length of the post, and for anything unfair I said.



Yes the market is changing, and someone will become famous shooting advertising campaigns with a phone. But large companies like Kodak and Dalsa continue to develop MF sensors for use by MFD manufactures. MFD isn't going away anytime soon!

BTW Hobbyists,Wedding photographer, Photo Journalists and Commercial Shooters all have different wants/needs. One size doesn't fit all. Always use the right tool for the job ... and sometimes a 4x5 Film Camera is the right tool ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 24, 2010)

c.d.embrey said:


> Yes the market is changing, and someone will become famous shooting advertising campaigns with a phone.



It's been done with an iPhone. Of course, keep in mind that in addition to a 3 megapixel cell phone camera, the shoot used thousands of dollars worth of lighting gear and relied heavily on post-processing.


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## unexposure (Sep 24, 2010)

There's at least one big plus to own a MF-Cam as a studiophotographer. It just impresses your customers more than some "casual-dslr". Loads of customers which buy studioportraits, weddingportraits, etc. own one of the "beginners dslrs" which, you must admit this, look pretty the same compared to a 5D MKII/D700 in the eyes of someone whos not that interested in cameras. MF is just another "Level" to show of how pro you are.


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## richy (Sep 25, 2010)

unexposure said:


> There's at least one big plus to own a MF-Cam as a studiophotographer. It just impresses your customers more than some "casual-dslr". Loads of customers which buy studioportraits, weddingportraits, etc. own one of the "beginners dslrs" which, you must admit this, look pretty the same compared to a 5D MKII/D700 in the eyes of someone whos not that interested in cameras. MF is just another "Level" to show of how pro you are.



For some reason people always ask me if my rz if a video camera?


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 25, 2010)

neuroanatomist said:


> It's been done with an iPhone. Of course, keep in mind that in addition to a 3 megapixel cell phone camera, the shoot used thousands of dollars worth of lighting gear and relied heavily on post-processing.



There have been many iPhone photos and videos posted on the net, Chase Jarvis has been shooting with an iPhone for quite a while - he even has had a book published of his iPhone photos.

What I was thinking of was the next *Terry Richardson* using a camera phone, something like a 12 megapixel Nokia N8, with a 5.4mm Zeiss lens and Xenon flash. A serious camera, not a toy ;D

In the 1990s Terry Richardson was shooting editorial fashion with a Yashica T4 P&S film camera. In the 2010s someone will get a Vogue cover using a phone.


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## NHUSA (Sep 28, 2010)

Doesn't the 60D use the metering or some other system to help with autofocus? This may be the difference between the 60 and 50D. I have tried out the 60 at Best Buy and it seemed pretty nice. I was hoping for a "smaller" version of the 7D AF system. Does this "Frankenstein" have any parts that did not come from another EOS camera...aside from the articulating screen?


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 30, 2010)

NHUSA said:


> Doesn't the 60D use the metering or some other system to help with autofocus? This may be the difference between the 60 and 50D. I have tried out the 60 at Best Buy and it seemed pretty nice. I was hoping for a "smaller" version of the 7D AF system. Does this "Frankenstein" have any parts that did not come from another EOS camera...aside from the articulating screen?


Metering determines how the image will be exposed - too long, too short, or whatever is considered "right." Autofocus may be helped out by the current metering system (introduced with the 7D, called iFCL, or a 63-zone "Focus, Color, Luminance" system, basically it's just a newer system) but autofocus has a specific subsystem. Does one system help the other? Dunno to be honest.

The 60D's autofocus is its own beast. It has fewer AF points than the 7D (9 cross-type compared to 19 if memory serves), but, like the 7D, the center one is "additionally sensitive at f/2.8 or faster," which wasn't the case with any previous non-professional (not the 7D, not the i.e. the 1D / 1Ds series), affordable camera. The autofocus points also may be a different size, which has its own repercussions. (Edited to clarify.)

The 60D isn't a 'frankencamera' at all; it just has a bunch of familiar-looking specs. The actual parts involved are far different than they might seem. (I remember smiling a few months ago at a DP Review article saying they would be surprised if such-and-such company designed a "totally new viewfinder unit" for a certain camera.)


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 30, 2010)

A quick detour to the "medium format sucks" post I made and abandoned a while ago:


c.d.embrey said:


> > I think the evidence is pretty clear that DSLRs have cut the knees out from under the MF market, and now they're working on the stumps.
> 
> 
> A lot of Pros disagree with you. MFD sales are good.


A lot of Pros likely were disappointed when their suppliers bit the dust. Scrolling to the end of this page:


> In 2008, the last year the [medium format] market was tracked, it was 6,000 units. There's no reason to assume 2009 was any better, the MF market shrank every year for the preceding 2 decades, at a a rate of 30%year.


Joseph S. Wisniewski makes a lot of other relevant points, so there's no reason to rehash them here.

I will be happy to acknowledge that there may be some handling advantage on some bodies. After all, one of the major reasons people still buy video cameras instead of DSLRs is that the form follows the function (more stable shooting orientation). But MF needs more than ergonomic bodies to stay relevant - especially when there are ergonomic breakthroughs of a different sort with flip phones and as video plays a more important role (not saying that a MF camera with a handle + video wouldn't be more comfortable to run 'n' gun movies with than a Canon DSLR, but that's not a universal design and in any case there won't be any epic length tracking shots with those wide MF lenses - I'm sure they're perfectly good for many common film shots though, which tend to be wider).

For what it's worth, the last medium format body I saw being used (a few months ago in Boston) looked exactly like any other DSLR, just slightly chunkier. I only can be sure it was MF because I made a guess it was and asked the guys pushing the cart it was laid on.


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## ageha (Sep 30, 2010)

Edwin Herdman said:


> The 60D's autofocus is its own beast. It has fewer AF points than the 7D (9 cross-type compared to 19 if memory serves) but the center one is "additionally sensitive at f/2.8 or faster," which wasn't the case with any previous non-professional (i.e. the 1D / 1Ds series), affordable camera. The autofocus points also may be a different size, which has its own repercussions.


7D's center focus point doesn't benefit from lenses faster that f/5.6? It's not a f/2.8 AF cross sensor?


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 30, 2010)

Sorry, somehow I left out the part where I intended to write "non-professional, *before the 7D* (aside from the 1D / 1Ds).

Yes, the center point of the 7D is additionally sensitive with lenses faster than f/2.8, like the 60D. These are the two new non-$4000+ cameras that have it (I think the 1D Mark IV has it as well, maybe the Mark IIIs). It has more sensors than the 60D overall, and you can read some impressions on these forums about how its tracking and overall accuracy compares to the 7D.

When in doubt, look up a page of specifications on DP Review! I make mistakes. Correcting that one, though, thanks!


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## Rocky (Oct 1, 2010)

Edwin Herdman said:


> The 60D's autofocus is its own beast. It has fewer AF points than the 7D (9 cross-type compared to 19 if memory serves), but, like the 7D, the center one is "additionally sensitive at f/2.8 or faster," which wasn't the case with any previous non-professional (not the 7D, not the i.e. the 1D / 1Ds series), affordable camera. The autofocus points also may be a different size, which has its own repercussions.



60D has the same focusing system as the old 40D and the 50D. 9 point all cross ,with extra sensor for lens faster than f2.8 at the middle sensor.


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## Grendel (Oct 1, 2010)

Doesn't mean that it's 100% the same, sensors may have been tweaked. Also, the software that drives the system is in the 4th or 5th generation, Canon may finally have implemented a PID controller making the AF micro adjustment obsolete.


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## richy (Oct 2, 2010)

I remember when they released the 5d2 they said it had virtually the same af sensor as the 5d BUT that the chip that did the maths (as opposed to the sensing) was much faster. Its probably 50% marketing and 50% fact.


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