# 5D3 vs D800 sales numbers



## NormanBates (May 14, 2012)

I know supply is limited for both cameras because neither Canon or Nikon can get enough cameras out of the gates to satisfy their customers, but anyway...

my theory is that, once manufacturing issues are solved, Canon will have to lower the price of their 5D3 because of low sales numbers, given that the D800 is so much better for stills in nearly every image quality metric, and its price is significantly lower too

it's happened before, in the 5D2 vs D700 battle, and in the D7000 vs 60D battle:

* July 2008: Nikon launches D700 at $3000
* Sep 2008: Canon launches much better 5D2 at $2700
* Dec 2008: D700 has fallen to $2320, 5D2 still $2700
http://camelcamelcamel.com/Nikon-12-1MP-FX-Format-Digital-3-0-Inch/product/B001BTCSI6
http://camelcamelcamel.com/Canon-21-1MP-Frame-Digital-Camera/product/B001G5ZTLS

aug-2010: Canon launches 60D at $1400
sep-2010: Nikon launches D7000 at $1200; it's better in some areas (noise, DR, color) but worse in others (mpix, video, swivel screen)
oct-2010: 60D has fallen to $1250, D7000 remains at $1200
since jan-2011: 60D almost always cheaper than D7000
http://camelcamelcamel.com/Canon-60D-3-0-Inch-18-135mm-Standard/product/B0040JHVC2
http://camelcamelcamel.com/Nikon-16-2MP-DX-Format-Digital-3-0-Inch/product/B0042X9LC4

so, here is amazon's list of best selling DSLRs
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941

when it started shipping, the D800 spent about a week in the top position, even if they never actually had it in stock
in the last week, the D800 has been hovering at 4th-5th, while the 5D3 climbed from 18th to 9th, and is back down to 16th now


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## zim (May 14, 2012)

and it's different in uk....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bestsellers-Electronics-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/14335821

and therefore probably every other country/region

do pros (being the main purchacers I'm assuming) actually buy their camera's from Amazon?

I really don't think you can go by Amazon to even estimate sales numbers


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## well_dunno (May 14, 2012)

Statistically speaking, if we do not have any reason to believe those who purchase D800 prefer Amazon whereas those who purchase 5D Mark III prefer some other pro stores, Amazon figures are still good indicatively. 

Cheers!


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## PhilDrinkwater (May 14, 2012)

zim said:


> do pros (being the main purchacers I'm assuming) actually buy their camera's from Amazon?
> 
> I really don't think you can go by Amazon to even estimate sales numbers



I think this is a significant point to be aware of. In the UK, Calumet say they do a lot of the early trade and they get a reasonable proportion of the early stock to fulfil pro orders.

Certainly that's where I got my 5dii and recently my 5diii from. They had my 5diii to me 2 weeks after I ordered it and I know a number of people buying from elsewhere haven't done that well. 

I'd buy a lens or batteries or a flash from amazon, but I wouldn't buy a camera body from them. For that I'd go a pro camera shop.

I definitely wouldn't trust the amazon rank for this kind of camera in the slightest. Maybe consumer cameras, but not semi-pro/pro. No idea about the US market - presumably B&H or somewhere would do more trade than amazon?


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## bycostello (May 14, 2012)

ton of factors in there not just competition the yen exchange rate at time of import a big one...


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## smithy (May 14, 2012)

PhilDrinkwater said:


> I definitely wouldn't trust the amazon rank for this kind of camera in the slightest. Maybe consumer cameras, but not semi-pro/pro. No idea about the US market - presumably B&H or somewhere would do more trade than amazon?


+1

When you see that the 1100D is the top selling Canon camera in the rankings, it's pretty clear what market buys their gear from Amazon.

I bought my 5D3 today (in part due to PhilDrinkwater's review, I must admit), and the manager at the camera shop I dealt with said they haven't even *seen* a production D800. It's almost what we call in the IT industry 'vapourware'. Something that gets announced, but nobody can physically obtain.


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## justsomedude (May 14, 2012)

Using Amazon sales charts as a basis for drawing consumer trend conclusions is pretty flawed. As many stated, it's one outlet, and there's not enough additional information for any real statistics to be gleaned.

That said, I bought my 5D3 on launch day from a local brick-and-mortar shop. A good friend of mine, who also does a lot of pro work, bought his from B&H.


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## PhilDrinkwater (May 14, 2012)

smithy said:


> I bought my 5D3 today (in part due to PhilDrinkwater's review, I must admit), and the manager at the camera shop I dealt with said they haven't even *seen* a production D800. It's almost what we call in the IT industry 'vapourware'. Something that gets announced, but nobody can physically obtain.



Uh oh! I hope you like it!! I tried to be as fair as possible 

I heard the same from a retailer here. They can't get hold of d800's. It just annoys people...


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## smithy (May 14, 2012)

PhilDrinkwater said:


> smithy said:
> 
> 
> > I bought my 5D3 today (in part due to PhilDrinkwater's review, I must admit), and the manager at the camera shop I dealt with said they haven't even *seen* a production D800. It's almost what we call in the IT industry 'vapourware'. Something that gets announced, but nobody can physically obtain.
> ...


So far its low light capabilities are blowing my mind - I can't understand how a camera can have this kind of performance. I feel like I'm cheating the gods of photography and light somehow.

Your review (and your style of photography) resonated with me, so I thank you. I just wish I still lived in the UK so I could tag along on one of your shoots!


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## sublime LightWorks (May 14, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> I know supply is limited for both cameras because neither Canon or Nikon can get enough cameras out of the gates to satisfy their customers, but anyway...
> 
> my theory is that, once manufacturing issues are solved, Canon will have to lower the price of their 5D3 because of low sales numbers, given that the D800 is so much better for stills in nearly every image quality metric, and its price is significantly lower too
> 
> ...



I'm curious as to how you relate position in an Amazon chart to number of camera's sold.

Let's use a simple example: The D800 is listed as 5th in that link you supplied. Did you know the 5D mk2 is listed as 23rd?

So let me ask you....do you think the D800 in 2 months has outsold all the 5D mk2's in the last 3+ years?

The Amazon list does not represent numbers of units sold, that's where you're making a mistake.


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## NormanBates (May 14, 2012)

* this is what it is: consumers buying from amazon; if you can get calumet, bhphoto, etc, to share their sales numbers, please post them here, I'd love to see them

* I won't read too much into this: I know it's just a sorting order, with no information about number of cameras sold; I won't try to compare number of D800 sold with number of 5D2 sold; I will compare number of D800 sold in the last week with number of 5D3 sold in the last week (or whatever period amazon uses; given how it moves, I'd say it's probably a week), and will only say C>N or N>C

* of course the list on the uk site is different: they don't even sell the 5D3 there yet!


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## PhilDrinkwater (May 14, 2012)

smithy said:


> So far its low light capabilities are blowing my mind - I can't understand how a camera can have this kind of performance. I feel like I'm cheating the gods of photography and light somehow.
> 
> Your review (and your style of photography) resonated with me, so I thank you. I just wish I still lived in the UK so I could tag along on one of your shoots!



<phew> 

Yes - it is amazing. Both focussing and the sensor have really allowed a new style of low light work. I can't wait to do some winter weddings with it now - it's going to be amazing! Enjoy it!

Shame you can't..


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## lady (May 14, 2012)

I spoke to the owner of the camera shop I use a couple of weeks ago about the 5D3 and I was told that both Nikon and Canon have been giving the local shops a hard time by not shipping anything to the resellers. He also mentioned that he'll get maybe 2-3 5D3s in one shipping and that's supposed to last him 2-4 weeks. Basically, both companies are trying to create an illusion of high demand for an item. There's no doubt that a lot of people are buying the 5D3, but maybe less than the constantly out-of-stock status would have you believe.

In America in the past, when Nikon releases a camera that competes with a Canon camera at a lower price, canon will match the price, and vice versa. Maybe this won't happen in Europe, but if it's a constant pattern, I can see it happening with the 5D3 in America this year.


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## TC1006 (May 14, 2012)

IMHO - I don't see Canon lowering there price anytime soon (atleast for 6 months or more). It is pretty obvious that there is a huge demand for both Canon and Nikon's and they can't manufacture them fast enough to keep up with it. Therefore, I dont see it happening anytime soon.


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## davidson (May 14, 2012)

in my mind, (and i might be very wrong here) i think that sales figures,especially for online retailers, only tell part of the story. sales figures give more of an indication of how successful the MARKETING is. Just because someone buys the camera doesnt mean they like it or that they keep it. _*FOR EXAMPLE*_ nikon can sell 100 D800's but then 80 people can return or resell them because they are dissatisfied with them. the sales figures will still show 100 sales but it doesnt say how may people actually like/keep the camera. same with canon, same with apple, same with pretty much everything.


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## awinphoto (May 14, 2012)

Canon didn't lower the 5d 2 prices until the 2.5 year mark in the cameras lifespan... That being said, I doubt canon really cares about which camera, the 5d3 or D800 sales more... Most companies such as this properly has a sale projection target... If it passes that target, in their eyes, it's a success. If it doesn't, it fails. If it's close enough to the mark, it's on track. Where exactly nikons sales matters to their projection is irrelevant. NOW... if they see a big decline once the supply and demand starts changing and there's more supply than demand, then and only then may we see change in pricing and rebates and such...


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## sublime LightWorks (May 14, 2012)

davidson said:


> in my mind, (and i might be very wrong here) i think that sales figures,especially for online retailers, only tell part of the story. sales figures give more of an indication of how successful the MARKETING is. Just because someone buys the camera doesnt mean they like it or that they keep it. _*FOR EXAMPLE*_ nikon can sell 100 D800's but then 80 people can return or resell them because they are dissatisfied with them. the sales figures will still show 100 sales but it doesnt say how may people actually like/keep the camera. same with canon, same with apple, same with pretty much everything.



It's not just that....if Amazon got 250 5D3's in and sold the say two weeks ago, and are now sold out....and they get 250 D800's in this week and sell them, where do you think the D800 is going to go in the list?

Simply put, that list does not in any way represent the total number of units sold of anything. If it did, the 5D2 would be way the hell up in the listing. That list isn't an absolute, its a sliding window reference. 4-6 weeks back the 5D3 was at the top of that list.


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## lady (May 14, 2012)

sublime LightWorks said:


> davidson said:
> 
> 
> > in my mind, (and i might be very wrong here) i think that sales figures,especially for online retailers, only tell part of the story. sales figures give more of an indication of how successful the MARKETING is. Just because someone buys the camera doesnt mean they like it or that they keep it. _*FOR EXAMPLE*_ nikon can sell 100 D800's but then 80 people can return or resell them because they are dissatisfied with them. the sales figures will still show 100 sales but it doesnt say how may people actually like/keep the camera. same with canon, same with apple, same with pretty much everything.
> ...



I'll repeat myself by saying we also don't know how many cameras are being shipped to resellers to sell.


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## Tammy (May 14, 2012)

While it can't be verified, about a month ago someone posted a thread here on CR indicating they spoke to their local shop and from pre-orders/sales their numbers were 25-1 in favor of the 5D3... no matter what country, if true, these type of figures are staggering.. and, if true, as a sample of response out there, ouch..


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## cliffwang (May 14, 2012)

zim said:


> do pros (being the main purchacers I'm assuming) actually buy their camera's from Amazon?
> 
> I really don't think you can go by Amazon to even estimate sales numbers



I am not a pro, but I am interested in 5D3 and D800. Just wonder who limits the 5D3 and D800 for PRO ONLY.

Two of my coworkers have 5D2(including me, 3 5D2), it about over than 30% of DSLR cameras owners in my company. Do you think Canon sell more 5D to PRO users? By the way, we buy stuff from Amazon.


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## unfocused (May 14, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> ...I doubt canon really cares about which camera, the 5d3 or D800 sales more... Most companies such as this properly has a sale projection target... If it passes that target, in their eyes, it's a success. If it doesn't, it fails. If it's close enough to the mark, it's on track. Where exactly nikons sales matters to their projection is irrelevant...



Exactly. This is not a war, a race or a political campaign. There is no end point where a winner gets declared. In fact, it's even more complicated because there isn't even a single product. For all we know, Canon could sell half as many 5DIIIs as Nikon sells D800s and it could still be a a tremendous success if that was what their business plan calls for. 

The horse race is entertainment for brand partisans and I enjoy it as much as anyone, but I'm under no illusions that comparative sales figures offer any sort of definitive evidence of the success of a particular product in their lineup, much less of any company overall.


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## Axilrod (May 14, 2012)

I know that my local shop hasn't even filled all of the preorders yet, and it's still backordered at B&H, so it seems to be selling pretty well from what I can tell.


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## pete vella (May 15, 2012)

the amazon top 100 list is irrelevent. say i wanted a d800 so i place the order at mutiple online retailers which ever one i recieve first i keep and cancel the rest. canon has more stock so it is easy to just place the order at one retailer and just wait , but some still play the whatever one come first game with the 5d mkiii. how many d800 buyers would buy from amazon in the first place.


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## NormanBates (May 15, 2012)

you can spin it however you want:
* if you think this information is useless, don't pay any attention, I'm sure you'll fine lots more fun elsewhere
* if you think it's an imperfect indicator of how well they're selling, and for any reason you're interested in this: D800 still 5th, 5D3 slightly up to 15th

my motivation for following this is:
* given how passionate many people feel about this, it's a fun fight to watch
* I will buy a full frame body in the coming weeks; with today's prices it would be either 5D2 or D800, the 5D3 is not an option since I think it's a lot worse than the D800 and more expensive too; but history says that when there's a simultaneous release with a clear loser that's also overpriced, in 3-6 months the price is adjusted to make it more palatable (see D700<5D2 and 60D<D7000)


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## PhilDrinkwater (May 15, 2012)

cliffwang said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > do pros (being the main purchacers I'm assuming) actually buy their camera's from Amazon?
> ...



I think you miss the point: pro retailers tend to get the larger share of the cameras *in the early days* and pros are more likely to be early adopters - if I was paying with my own money I'd wait until it dropped £500. 

That will change the sales figures early on.


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## psolberg (May 15, 2012)

different cameras, different purposes. actual numbers will never be known. But one thing is certain: neither camera is selling bad.


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## awinphoto (May 15, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> you can spin it however you want:
> * if you think this information is useless, don't pay any attention, I'm sure you'll fine lots more fun elsewhere
> * if you think it's an imperfect indicator of how well they're selling, and for any reason you're interested in this: D800 still 5th, 5D3 slightly up to 15th
> 
> ...



Well this professional is clearly choosing the loser of the two cameras as you so adequately put it... because it's AF, compared to just about any other camera out there, is, clearly, loser, so is the ISO, so is the 100% VF, so is the weathersealing, so is the frame rate, because, you know, afterall the D800 can do that with the optional battery grip, oh wait, that's _not_ shooting full frame? Crap, well if dual slots, yep that's a loser, HDR, customization, ergonomics, better all around camera, better DR and IQ past ISO 800... yep why would _ANYONE_ choose the 5d3 over the D800? **crickets**...


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## NormanBates (May 15, 2012)

well, it's not what you think, or what I think
it's what most prospective buyers think, and we won't know about that until we get a clearer picture of how it's selling (yes, sales numbers, because it's not an absolute comparison either: it's a price/performance issue, at $2700 I would also say the 5D3 is a great camera)

D800 still 5th, 5D3 down again to 16th
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941

and it's in stock at BH right now, so I guess amazon should be receiving the pretty boxes too, soon


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## awinphoto (May 15, 2012)

For some reason, I dont think pro buyers (the target audience) of the 5d3 really shop at amazon compared to other stores such as adorama, BH photo, JR, etc... I think amazon is more of the every day consumer but I could be wrong. As far as canon and nikon care, it's based off their projected targets and numbers... Dont think Canon OR nikon is really spying the other's numbers to see who sold more in what quarter... It is what it is.


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## psolberg (May 15, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> NormanBates said:
> 
> 
> > you can spin it however you want:
> ...



btw, just so you know, the D800 is also weather sealed, AF focuses with f/8 which others "superior AF" can't do which means its AF will keep working in low light when the "other" stops, also offers 100% VF, high resolution face recognition RGB metering vs not, also offers dual card slots, has HDR and 9 bracket options instead of 7, better intervalometer with direct to .mov option, and identical on higher ISO's resampled to 22MP, crop video modes, 4:2:2 HDMI out, excellent ergonomics. So let's get that out of the way. 5DMKIII has better specs in *some* areas, but it ain't the be all end all of DSLRs. Neither is the D800 but it ain't trailing anything either, just saying... 8)

Yet both of you are going in circles. Is big MP any more pointless than big ISO if that's not a priority for the photographer? no. Is high FPS any more useful if one doesn't need it? no . are 2 FPS either way going to make THAT much difference? hell no. How many people who need to shoot fast FPS aren't better served with a 8 FPS ready D700 instead for a fraction of the cost and that will smoke anything south of a 5K dollar camera? Likewise how many people really need ISO 100K or even will use it. Or how many people that get 36MP will end up needing it.

Ultimately, there is no such thing as better all around camera for everybody. that's a load of crap because the better all around camera depends on what you shoot and the answer changes based on that. What camera is the more versatile depends strictly on what areas need versatility versus what areas is trivial. Neither camera to date does it all better than the rest so why argue such idiotic thing as which is the "best all round camera". It's silly at best.

So please let's stop pretending that suddently the hallmark of versatility is a mere 6fps when flagships or even older DSLR smoke that and have for years not to mention all the great images achieved with the "SLOW" 3.9fps 5DmkII. Likewise let's not pretend the apex of versatility is having 14stops of DR and the ability to crop 1/3 of the image and beat other cameras in detail when there are these things called zoom lenses and HDR. Even meidum format.

You use whatever works for you, and that is the most versatile of YOU period. If a mere 2fps or 14MP sway you on either direction then clearly the other camera wasn't aimed at you. But it says nothing about how much of a better fit it will be for somebody else.

There isn't a loser or winner camera (well except if amazong is the official score keeper). It's just at tool. Is a hammer a loser because it can't do the screwdriver's job? Is such an argument better suited to 6th graders than grown professionals?. I think so. Let's mature here a little people. :


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## well_dunno (May 16, 2012)

Hmm, the thread seems to have gotten much longer since last time I was here. 

A few remarks:

Random sampling is used very frequently in research and unless there is a specific reason to believe the sample is not representative of the population, the results of the statistical analysis is generalizable with an error margin. If there are good reasons to think sample is not representative, it only affects the generalizability.

Thus, my hypothetical question would be in what way D800 differs from Mk 3 to affect the Amazon figures so as not to be representative. Hypothetical since I came across the page below among a few other pages which suggest the Amazon figures are weighed and tweaked to improve the sales - referring to books though:

http://www.rampant-books.com/mgt_amazon_sales_rank.htm

That sort of playing with the numbers equals zero validity for the figures. I am going to disregard them going forward... Thanks for having read thus far! 

Cheers!


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## awinphoto (May 16, 2012)

psolberg said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > NormanBates said:
> ...



I was referring to areas where the 5d3 ISN'T lesser of a camera. In some ways, such as base AF, it has been unaminously been declared faster than the D800 except in the dead of night and F8, but then again as others pointed out, it does do f8 and beyond with certain lenses and combinations. As for the 6FPS vs 4FPS or even the 8, 10, or 12, faster is better, always, but with that, a skilled photog can get by with lesser, it just takes more skill and patience. If its not needed, great, but it's a good problem to have, just like MP, DR, and ISO. I agree that there is no clear winner or loser, it's just one of the things where they are two seperate tools. For everything Nikon has an advantage, I say the canon has a seperate advantage to match. It is what it is.


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## briansquibb (May 16, 2012)

psolberg said:


> btw, just so you know, the D800 is also weather sealed, AF focuses with f/8 which others "superior AF" can't do which means its AF will keep working in low light when the "other" stops, also offers 100% VF, high resolution face recognition RGB metering vs not, also offers dual card slots, has HDR and 9 bracket options instead of 7, better intervalometer with direct to .mov option, and identical on higher ISO's resampled to 22MP, crop video modes, 4:2:2 HDMI out, excellent ergonomics. So let's get that out of the way. 5DMKIII has better specs in *some* areas, but it ain't the be all end all of DSLRs. Neither is the D800 but it ain't trailing anything either, just saying... 8)



We realise that you have moved to the D800 and you like it.

As you say we all have our likes and dislikes - and mine is more fast moving and stills orientated. So I compare the D800 to the 1D4. So your list of cons doesn't raise a glimmer of interest. Even comparing it to my 1DS3 doesn't nothing either.

So please stop the "my Nikon is better than your Canon rant"


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## PhilDrinkwater (May 16, 2012)

psolberg said:


> Ultimately, there is no such thing as better all around camera for everybody. that's a load of crap because the better all around camera depends on what you shoot and the answer changes based on that.



He didn't say "better all round camera for everybody" he said "better all round camera". You added the "for everybody". That changes things quite significantly in terms of meaning...


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## NormanBates (May 16, 2012)

well_dunno said:


> I came across the page below among a few other pages which suggest the Amazon figures are weighed and tweaked to improve the sales - referring to books though:
> 
> http://www.rampant-books.com/mgt_amazon_sales_rank.htm



* I hope they don't play with the numbers, it would ruin the only source of timely relevant data in this area...
* that link reinforces my belief that these sales rankings are based on weekly data

D800 still 5th, 5D3 falling again, 18th
and it's still in stock at BH, but out of stock at amazon, let's hope they get their shipment soon...


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## awinphoto (May 16, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> * I hope they don't play with the numbers, it would ruin the only source of timely relevant data in this area...
> * that link reinforces my belief that these sales rankings are based on weekly data
> 
> D800 still 5th, 5D3 falling again, 18th
> and it's still in stock at BH, but out of stock at amazon, let's hope they get their shipment soon...



On your first point, as it's unknown how valid those rankings are and also how many of the target audience actually buys from amazon and also regarding stock levels, I cannot speak for nikons production, but canon has 2 dedicated factories pumping them out... Also wasn't there postings on CR a week or two ago that nikon was having production problems with the AF, battery, and something else and in some stores such as amazon UK cancelling backorders of the D800? Anyways there are a few possible reasons for the varying stock levels... Personally I wouldn't get too excited until canon and nikon start releasing quarterly earning reports, but even then it may not tell you the success of each product. Everything is pure speculation at this point.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 16, 2012)

Using Amazon sales figures can be very misleading. Canon sells a body only version plus a kit version in the USA, where Nikon only sells the body only version. So far as I can tell, you cannot compare the total number of 5D MK III's to the D800's being deliivered, except that Canon has two factories producing them so they are likely producing far more cameras.


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## NormanBates (May 17, 2012)

so far sales numbers are limited by supply issues

if we believe amazon's numbers that the D800 is ranking clearly above the 5D3 (and that's a big if), then all we know is that there are more D800 than 5D3 being manufactured/shipped/sold, and that demand for the D800 is at least higher than the number of 5D3 cameras that canon can ship

that's not a lot

once supply is enough, we'll get a clearer picture of demand for each camera; I hope that's soon

D800 still 5th, 5D3 both 18th and 19th (kit, and body-only)
(I don't know how much numbers change from one position to another; I'd say a 5th sells more than a 18th+19th, but I have absolutely no idea, it could be the other way around; also, it's the first time that the kit has appeared in the top 20, I'd say it's safe to say that so far the D800 has moved more bodies than the 5D3)


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## neuroanatomist (May 17, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> if we believe amazon's numbers that the D800 is ranking clearly above the 5D3 (and that's a big if), then all we know is that there are more D800 than 5D3 being manufactured/shipped/sold, and that demand for the D800 is at least higher than the number of 5D3 cameras that canon can ship



No, *if* we believe Anazon's numbers, all we know is that _Amazon_ is selling more D800 bodies than 5DIII bodies. That says absolutely nothing about the total number of either body being manufactured/shipped/sold, and nothing about overall demand. Not sure why you'd assume that Amazon is the major retailer for cameras costing >$3000, nor why you'd assume their sales rankings are representative of the overall market.


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## NormanBates (May 17, 2012)

fair enough
I meant:
"if we believe amazon's numbers that the D800 is ranking clearly above the 5D3 [to be correct and representative] (and that's a big if)..."


edit:
D800 down to 6th, 5D3 went to 14th (kit) and 23rd (body)


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## Northstar (May 18, 2012)

> btw, just so you know, the D800 is also weather sealed, AF focuses with f/8 which others "superior AF" can't do which means its AF will keep working in low light when the "other" stops, also offers 100% VF, high resolution face recognition RGB metering vs not, also offers dual card slots, has HDR and 9 bracket options instead of 7, better intervalometer with direct to .mov option, and identical on higher ISO's resampled to 22MP, crop video modes, 4:2:2 HDMI out, excellent ergonomics. So let's get that out of the way. 5DMKIII has better specs in *some* areas, but it ain't the be all end all of DSLRs. Neither is the D800 but it ain't trailing anything either, just saying... 8)
> 
> Yet both of you are going in circles. Is big MP any more pointless than big ISO if that's not a priority for the photographer? no. Is high FPS any more useful if one doesn't need it? no . are 2 FPS either way going to make THAT much difference? hell no. How many people who need to shoot fast FPS aren't better served with a 8 FPS ready D700 instead for a fraction of the cost and that will smoke anything south of a 5K dollar camera? Likewise how many people really need ISO 100K or even will use it. Or how many people that get 36MP will end up needing it.
> 
> ...


[/quote]


Many excellent points here...good post.


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## V8Beast (May 18, 2012)

So is the moral of the story that the Rebel T3i is the world's best-selling DSLR? In other news, I've been shooting with my 5D3 for over a month now, and don't give a rat's ass how many additional copies Canon sells. Why is this even relevant? If you can't get over the fact that the 5D3 costs $500 more than the D800, just buy a D800 and be happy. Problem solved.


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## NormanBates (May 18, 2012)

as I said before:
my motivation for following this is:
* given how passionate many people feel about this, it's a fun fight to watch
* I expect the 5D3 to fall $500 or so in the coming months, IF sales numbers are low

I enjoy watching this kind of fight, other people enjoy watching cars go round and round on an oval circuit

D800 6th, 5D3 22nd and 23rd (!!!)
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941


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## V8Beast (May 18, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> * I expect the 5D3 to fall $500 or so in the coming months, IF sales numbers are low



Or given the disparity between the D800's supply and demand, maybe the D800 will increase in price by $500. I know it sounds crazy, the law of supply vs. demand be damned.


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## NormanBates (May 18, 2012)

historically, it's been the other way around, though (D7000 vs 60D, 5D2 vs D700)
but yes, I know that's also an option


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## traveller (May 18, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> NormanBates said:
> 
> 
> > * I expect the 5D3 to fall $500 or so in the coming months, IF sales numbers are low
> ...



That's already happened in the UK amd the D800 wasn't even on sale at the time... ???


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## well_dunno (May 19, 2012)

Either case, I am glad Nikon came out with D800 and I do hope it sells well - competition can only bring us better value...

Also, if the European economy continues to be the way it has been last year, Leicas might become affordable some day... :-\


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## zim (May 19, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> * of course the list on the uk site is different: they don't even sell the 5D3 there yet!



Exactly so Amazon is no indicator of 5D3 sales, daily, weekly, monthly or whatever and when it does it still wont be


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## NormanBates (May 21, 2012)

D800 6th, 5D3 23rd and 45th
both still backordered
I'd really want to see the production issues gone away..

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941/ref=zg_bs_3017941_pg_2?_encoding=UTF8


edit:
22-may: D800 5th again, 5D3 23rd and 48th


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## Invertalon (May 22, 2012)

The 5D3 is being bought up like hotcakes. You really think you will see a price drop in the next 6-months? No way.

The 5D3 is out of stock or back-ordered on many of the largest sites... The supply of the 5D3 they have got are probably MUCH larger then the D800. Canon is pumping them out in much larger numbers. The fact the 5D3 is still out of stock in many places should show you sales are strong.

The D800 is out everywhere due to good demand and poor supply by Nikon. Nikon may be out of stock everywhere much worse then the 5D3, but the 5D3 could have 300% the sales of the D800... Never know.


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## neuroanatomist (May 22, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> I enjoy watching this kind of fight



Since you're so fond of watching Amazon's Top 100 Best Selling dSLR list, I wonder if you've looked at their Top 100 Rated list? 

Canon has the top 8 positions on that list, 17 of the top 20 slots - you have to go all the way down to #19 to find the first Nikon camera on the list. Still, it sould make you happy that even there, the D800 is ahead of the 5DIII... :


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## NormanBates (May 23, 2012)

@Neuro
that's another interesting list, and I didn't know they had those too, thanks; only one Nikon in the first page, which is nearly all Canon; very impressive
still, the one that should affect prices is the sales list

-------------------------

@Invertalon
you may be right that we may not see a price drop in the next 6 months
I still expect to see one, but it is obvious that such event is just one possible outcome

the rest of your post doesn't make sense at all

"the fact that the 5D3 is still out of stock in many places" only tells me that demand is higher than supply, it says nothing about the number of cameras Canon is shipping, relative to Nikon (if anything, it tells me it's a low number, as in "it's lower than demand"; there's no other piece of information regarding numbers in that statement)

I don't know if amazon makes its list using orders or shipments
A) if it is "orders", the list tells me (many) more D800's are ordered than 5D3's
B) if it is "shipments", the list tells me (many) more D800's are shipped than 5D3's

and if it is A, the D800 would have to have a massively longer backorder list than the 5D3 for the 5D3 to actually be shipping in higher quantities
the most likely scenario, looking at that list, is that the D800 is having both more orders and more shipments than the 5D3
("most likely", not "inevitable conclusion")

(edit, 01-jun: the 1DX appeared on the list today, at 81st, so it's "orders"; no idea on how many of these orders are being cancelled, for either the 5D3 or the D800, but this confirms that there's a lot more interest in the D800 than in the 5D3; and the backorder list on the D800 would have to be HUGE for it not to be shipping more than the 5D3)

and again, the fact that they're both out of order contains no information regarding relative sales numbers

it's a mystery to me how you would look at that list and conclude that "The supply of the 5D3 they have got are probably MUCH larger then the D800"

----------------------

D800 6th
5D3 back to the first page, 19th and 48th

-----------------------

edit:

24-may: D800 5th, 5D3 23rd and 36th, everything still backordered (but good news: over at bh, the 5d3 kit has been in stock non-stop for 2 or 3 days!!)

25-may: D800 5th, 5D3 28th and 35th
26-may: D800 8th, 5D3 22nd and 49th (for D800, that's the lowest I've seen it since launch)
27-may: D800 5th, 5D3 31st and 32nd
28-may: D800 8th, 5D3 10th and 47th, and IN STOCK!! (body only version, the one that has climbed to 10th)
29-may: D800 9th, 5D3 8th and 54th; Canon on top!! but 5D3 again out of stock...
30-may: D800 8th, 5D3 12nd and 66th
31-may: D800 7th, 5D3 13th and 95th (that's well below the 30D, 40D and 50D, which for some reason still appear in the list)
01-jun: D800 7th, 5D3 15th and 51st
02-jun: D800 4th, 5D3 12th and out-of-the-list
03-jun: D800 6th, 5D3 19th and 37th
04-jun: D800 7th, 5D3 19th and 38th
05-jun: D800 7th, 5D3 19th and 30th (kit in stock)
06-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 17th and 14th (and again out of stock)
07-jun: D800 7th, 5D3 2nd and 30th (body only in stock even after order increase: finally some meaningful re-stock!!)
08-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 6th and 36th (and again out of stock)
09-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 13th and 39th (and the T4i/650D is already there: 10th)
10-jun: D800 6th, 5D3 16th and 42nd (T4i 3rd, and that's the STM kit) (5D3 falls again as stock ends; it doesn't seem to happen to the D800, which has been up there all the time and never in stock)
11-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 17th and 62nd
12-jun: D800 6th, 5D3 22nd and 60th (5D3 in stock, both body and kit, at affiliate stores that carry official price)
13-jun: D800 7th, 5D3 21st and 39th (out of stock again)
14-jun: D800 7th, 5D3 22nd and 37th
15-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 7th and 36th (5D3 in stock, both body and kit!!)
16-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 5th and 21st (5D3 in stock, both body and kit!!)
17-jun: D800 9th, 5D3 6th and 20th (still: 5D3 in stock, both body and kit!!)
18-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 6th and 35th (still: 5D3 in stock, both body and kit!!)
19-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 5th and 23rd (still: 5D3 in stock, both body and kit!!)
20-jun: D800 5th, 5D3 6th and 26th (still: 5D3 in stock, both body and kit!!)
21-jun: D800 6th, 5D3 11th and 27th (in stock but sliding down, as opposed to the D800, out of stock but always up there)
22-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 12th and 22nd (still: 5D3 in stock, both body and kit: first full week without going out of stock!!)
23-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 9th and 34th (body-only goes up as kit goes out of stock) (this suggests that 9th+34th is slightly smaller than 12th+22nd, and the slope is higher at the top)

25-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 9th and 34th
26-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 9th and 43rd (both 5D3 models still in stock, but kit only at amazon partners)
27-jun: D800 8th, 5D3 10th and 30th (both 5D3 models still in stock, but kit only at amazon partners)
28-jun: D800 7th, 5D3 9th and 32nd (both 5D3 models still in stock, but kit only at amazon partners)
29-jun: D800 9th, 5D3 11th and 33rd (body-only in stock, kit backordered)
30-jun: D800 11th, 5D3 6th and 41st (body-only in stock, kit backordered)
01-jul: D800 6th, 5D3 10th and 34th (both 5D3 models in stock)
02-jul: D800 6th, 5D3 10th and 40th (body-only in stock, kit backordered)
03-jul: D800 9th, 5D3 8th and 52nd (both 5D3 models in stock)
04-jul: D800 7th, 5D3 9th and 36th (both 5D3 models in stock)
05-jul: D800 7th, 5D3 11th and 31st (both 5D3 models in stock) (kit at slightly discounted price, $4274, just $25 below usual)
06-jul: D800 7th, 5D3 11th and 27th (both 5D3 models in stock)

also... both at slightly discounted prices: $3484 instead of $3499 and $4249 instead of $4299
same at bhpthotovideo $3484 and $4274

07-jul: D800 7th, 5D3 6th and 22nd after bigger price drop (both models in stock, at $3399 and $4199)
09-jul: D800 4th, 5D3 11th and 25th (kit in stock at $4199, body-only back at $3499 and only in stock at associate sellers)
10-jul: D800 4th, 5D3 18th and 28th (kit in stock at $4249, body-only back at $3499, only in stock at associate sellers)
11-jul: D800 5th, 5D3 21st and 23rd (kit in stock at $4249, body-only at $3484, only in stock at associate sellers)
12-jul: D800 10th, 5D3 21st and 29th (kit in stock at $4249, body-only at $3484, only in stock at associate sellers)
13-jul: D800 9th, 5D3 26th and 31st (kit in stock at $4249, body-only at $3479, only in stock at associate sellers)

14-jul: D800 7th, 5D3 21st and 13th (KIT IN STOCK AT $3999, body-only at $3484, only in stock at associate sellers)
15-jul: D800 7th, 5D3 26th and 10th (both in stock only at associate sellers; price $3199 -adorama- and $4249)
16-jul: D800 11th, 5D3 5th and 12th (both in stock only at associate sellers; price $3449 and $4249)
17-jul: D800 10th, 5D3 8th and 20th (both in stock only at associate sellers; price $3484 and $4249)
18-jul: D800 12th, 5D3 8th and 27th (body-only in stock at $3449, kit in stock only at associate sellers, $4249)
19-jul: D800 12th, 5D3 9th and 23rd (body-only in stock at $3449, kit in stock only at associate sellers, $4249)
20-jul: D800 9th, 5D3 8th and 33rd (body-only in stock at $3349, kit in stock only at associate sellers, $4249)

(also: kit out of stock but listed at $4099 directly from amazon)

21-jul: D800 11th, 5D3 8th (body-only in stock at $3349)
23-jul: D800 10th, 5D3 7th and 38th (body-only in stock, $3349, kit in stock only at associate sellers, $4249)
24-jul: D800 10th, 5D3 6th and 26th (body-only in stock, $3349, kit backordered, $4099)
25-jul: D800 5th, 5D3 6th and 32nd (D800 in stock, first time!) (body-only in stock at $3349, kit backordered, $4099)
26-jul: D800 1st, 5D3 7th and 44th (D800 sold out again) (body-only in stock at $3349, kit backordered, $4099)
27-jul: D800 4th, 5D3 8th and 49th (body-only in stock at $3499, kit in stock only at associate sellers, $4299)
28-jul: D800 5th, 5D3 9th and 42nd (body-only in stock at $3499, kit in stock only at associate sellers, $4299)

30-jul: D800 11th, 5D3 10th and 55th (body-only in stock at $3429, kit in stock only at associate sellers, $4299)
31-jul: D800 10th, 5D3 12th and 33rd (body-only in stock, $3499, kit in stock only at associate sellers, $4299)

I still think the price has to fall, but can't wait any longer: bought a 5D2, will wait and see if Canon pulls its act together, otherwise consider switching brands.

02-ago: D800 1st, 5D3 12th and 28th (D800 in stock, $2999) (body and kit in stock, $3499 and $4299)
03-ago: D800 1st, 5D3 13th and 35th (D800 in stock, $2999) (body and kit in stock, $3499 and $4299)
04-ago: D800 1st, 5D3 9th and 29th (D800 backordered again, except at affiliates at $3299) (5D3 in stock, $3499 and $4299)

06-ago: D800 6th, 5D3 16th and 43rd (5D3 in stock, $3499 and $4299)
07-ago: D800 6th, 5D3 13th and 29th (5D3 in stock, $3464 and $4299)
08-ago: D800 5th, 5D3 12th and 31st (5D3 in stock, $3464 and $4299)
09-ago: D800 6th, 5D3 12th and 27th (5D3 in stock, $3464 and $4299)
10-ago: D800 1st, 5D3 9th and 29th (D800 in stock, $2999) (5D3 in stock, $3464 and $4299)
11-ago: D800 1st, 5D3 12th and 36th (D800 in stock, $2999) (5D3 in stock, $3464 and $4299)
13-ago: D800 3rd, 5D3 13th and 49th (D800 backordered, $2999) (5D3 in stock, $3464 and $4299)
14-ago: D800 5th, 5D3 8th and 24th (D800 backordered, $2999) (5D3 in stock, $3464 and $4299)

.


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## NormanBates (Jun 11, 2012)

New signs of demand for the 5D3 slowing down:

* in the first week or two, when the 5D3 appeared in stock in an amazon affiliate store (today, "Audio Video Communication Store"), it did so at a markup price ($4500 for the lens kit, instead of $4200), but the camera nevertheless went up in the ranking. For a couple of days, the 5D3 kit has been in stock at that price, and going down in the ranking.

* in the first week or two, when an ebay dealer got hold of a 5D3, they sold it at a high premium (usually $4000 for the body only version); today, there are still a lot of listings for that kind of money, but there are also dozens of cameras on offer at a discount ($3400 or less, including shipping)
http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-22-3-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-Black-Body-Only-Latest-Model-/113297147?rt=nc&_aset=0&_dmpt=Digital_Cameras&_pcategid=625&_pcatid=782&_pdpal=1&_rptype=4295&_trksid=p5360.c0.m299.l1513&_pgn=3
e.g. this highly rated seller has "more than 10 available, 18 sold", at $3372 with free shipping:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-Body-22-3MP-Digital-Camera-/221018005874?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item3375b32172

It seems to me that those willing to pay "even more" for their 5D3 already have one. I really want Canon to solve their supply issues...


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## cliffwang (Jun 11, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> It seems to me that those willing to pay "even more" for their 5D3 already have one. I really want Canon to solve their supply issues...


I think that's not really necessary for Canon to solve the supply issue. Most Canon loyal users who need a 5D3 should have one on hand already. And now you can buy a 5D3 from anywhere. That means 5D3 supply might exceed its demand now. Why does Canon need to have more 5D3 supply? Canon will put more focus on its other new products.


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## stoneysnapper (Jun 11, 2012)

zim said:


> and it's different in uk....
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bestsellers-Electronics-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/14335821
> 
> ...



Worth pointing out that Amazon UK has not sold a single 5Diii because they have never had any to sell. I've been checking weekly if not more frequently since release on there and its never been available. One or two third party sellers have one but thats it. I'm guessing its the same with the D800 as the only sellers on Amazon again are third party and they are selling at upwards of £800 more than the retail price.


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## NormanBates (Jul 7, 2012)

The price is already starting to slide.
In the last few days, amazon has taken $25, $50, and now $100 out of the price of both the body-only and the kit.
Now two things can happen: demand may increase a lot, and it may go out of stock again, which would stop the price slide, or the increase in demand may be more modest, and the price slide may accelerate.

I think the second one is more likely, since on ebay the body-only version can be bought for $3150 shipped...


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## Abraxx (Jul 7, 2012)

What a silly thread and > meaningless. :

Oh, by the way, I raised the sales number of the 5D3 by 1 this week and I did not buy via Amazon or similar large store...! 

cheers ;D


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## markd61 (Jul 7, 2012)

NormanBates said:


> my theory is that, once manufacturing issues are solved, Canon will have to lower the price of their 5D3 because of low sales numbers, given that the D800 is so much better for stills in nearly every image quality metric, and its price is significantly lower too



Why aren't you on a waiting list for the D-800 then? ???


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## Abraxx (Jul 8, 2012)

markd61 said:


> NormanBates said:
> 
> 
> > my theory is that, once manufacturing issues are solved, Canon will have to lower the price of their 5D3 because of low sales numbers, given that the D800 is so much better for stills in nearly every image quality metric, and its price is significantly lower too
> ...



Likely because he is just a troll or realistically does know that it will Nikon take quite some time to resolve all these issues with the D800. 

@Norman
I compared these 2 cams myself extensively too, out of 3 D800 I tried, in 3 different countries (UK, Germany, Spain), from 3 different production batches, at least one of them suffered from the following defects (some of which, like the left AF, all 3 showed the defect):

- strange spots on the sensor, (dirt, oil, I don't know) out of box!
- green tint on LCD, no color accuracy (officially not acknowledged by N, though obvious!)
- AWB with green tint
- outer left AF points not working, AF point pivoting
- soft focus on left side with some lenses
- scratches on mirror, out of box!
- total camera hang ups in some configs (by now there was a firmware update, but I read that it did not solve it with all cams)
- HDMI out not working with some recorders (one dealer couldn't get it to work, well I don't need that anyway, but an example for Specsheet hype vs RL) 
- long exposure issues (see some blogs for details...this is really an ... for landscaping)
- liveview zoomed in is "wobbly" & noisy, useless for manual focusing
- moire issues
- LCDisplay frame rate very low (not a big thingy, but I think its the quality of the chosen LCD/Rendering solution chosen, which is just subpar)
- high video noise
- high mirror vibration, blurring pics
- Flashes are wirelessly not triggered reliably
- faulty battery
- misaligned pentaprism (basically more than 3 cams, because this was noticed by one dealer and he had a second D800...he shouldn't have told me...)

For several of these defects you'll easily find youtube videos and threads in Nikon forums discussing these too...

For me, it looks like Nikon currently has severe quality control issues with the D800.
Some of these obviously won't be solved by firmware and Nikon is not showing any(!) interest in acknowledging them (compared to Canon, who acted fairly quickly regarding the "little" light leak issue). Spoke with Nikon Germany sales on a fair again just recently too...which reduced my expectation that Nikon is going to do a lot about AF or other things I mentioned.
They consider most of the list as up to specs... :
To me it looks like there are many, many more issues with the new FF from Nikon compared to Canon's... and Nikon does not seem to do anything or care about several of them (except battery issues so far, where they are basically forced to). 
Put on top that, I have the impression that the German Nikon support is far worse than the Canon.
My conclusion:
I personally move the price difference now into the category "you get what you pay for".

Oh and by the way, if I expose correct, I do not need the extra DR at low ISO, but at mid to high ISO I'm happy about the extra DR (over the Nikon), because there I probably need it more often when shooting AL...
I still prefer the Canon Skin tones and the 5D3 is more responsive than the D800.
(and there is more about the 5D3, which I prefer, but thats not subject of my post here)

So no, in no way is the D800 in IQ or other aspects far superior to the 5D3. Only for controlled light situations and tripod landscaping it is, but in real life, only in these situations, and for my taste only by a small amount. In others she is NOT.

Lesson learned: stop comparing spec sheets, but rent and go out and try/compare the cams of your interest yourself.
And stop interpreting silly sales charts of Amazon, they do not tell you what the right Cam is for you!

my 2 cents ;D

PS I bought the 5D3 with a german warranty, plus my CPS dealer grants an extended Canon warranty to 3 years. 
Again, you get what you pay for


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