# Will you be disappointed if the 70d gets the same 18mp sensor?



## akiskev (Mar 24, 2013)

I want to know what this lovely community thinks about this matter!
I know I will be a bit disappointed, but don't get me wrong: I won't judge the camera just from its sensor. It can be a great DSLR no matter what sensor it will have..


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## dickgrafixstop (Mar 24, 2013)

The 7D is now nearly 4 years old. To announce a replacement without a significant technology
upgrade would be just foolish - unless you want to sell 6D's and relegate crop sensor to the
amateur market.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 24, 2013)

Do you actually believe that the number of megapixels means its the same sensor? Perhaps you think the T4i has the same sensor, after its also 18mp, and then the T5i too.
Does the G11 have the same sensor as the old Canon 5D? Both are 12 mp, as is the Nikon D700.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 24, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Do you actually believe that the number of megapixels means its the same sensor? Perhaps you think the T4i has the same sensor, after its also 18mp, and then the T5i too.
> Does the G11 have the same sensor as the old Canon 5D? Both are 12 mp, as is the Nikon D700.



We could also bring up the sensor in the 1DX. It's only 18 mp .


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## Sporgon (Mar 24, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Do you actually believe that the number of megapixels means its the same sensor? Perhaps you think the T4i has the same sensor, after its also 18mp, and then the T5i too.
> Does the G11 have the same sensor as the old Canon 5D? Both are 12 mp, as is the Nikon D700.




Good point. Who wants more than 18 mp on APS anyway ? Come to think of who wants more than 18 mp on FF *really* ;D


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## akiskev (Mar 24, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Perhaps you think the T4i has the same sensor, after its also 18mp, and then the T5i too.


I said "the same" because iq wise there is no improvement!



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Does the G11 have the same sensor as the old Canon 5D? Both are 12 mp, as is the Nikon D700.


Shocking as it may be, I've read somewhere that they differ a bit! Correct me if I'm wrong


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## akiskev (Mar 24, 2013)

GUYS! Chill!
I was referring to the generation/technology of the sensor and not to the number of the megapixels themselves! I don't care about the megapixel count as long as they are more than 8 (personally 10mp is enough for my needs).

I just want to see a "next gen" sensor by Canon though. Something that will be on par with Sony/Oly sensors.


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 24, 2013)

akiskev said:


> GUYS! Chill!
> I was referring to the generation/technology of the sensor and not to the number of the megapixels themselves! I don't care about the megapixel count as long as they are more than 8 (personally 10mp is enough for my needs).
> 
> I just want to see a "next gen" sensor by Canon though. Something that will be on par with Sony/Oly sensors.



I think I would be disappointed. Afterall, they can certainly put a next gen sensor in the camera. So yes, I'd be disappointed.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 24, 2013)

I won't be disappointed if the 70D gets the 'old' sensor, but I *will* be disappointed if the 7DII doesn't get a meaningfully improved sensor.


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## x-vision (Mar 24, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> We could also bring up the sensor in the 1DX. It's only 18 mp .



Same, four-year old, 18mp sensor = big disappointment !
New, 18mp sensor with better DR and 1+ stops better ISO = hurray!!!

P.S. It's not the number of megapixels that will disappoint but their quality. 
Bring 1DX quality to 1.6x sensors and nobody will complain that 18mp is not enough. 
(Yes, I know that this is difficult/impossible. Just giving an example here.)


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## bdunbar79 (Mar 24, 2013)

x-vision said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > We could also bring up the sensor in the 1DX. It's only 18 mp .
> ...



1+ stop better ISO than what? And the 1DX quality sensor will never be in a 70D or 7D Mark II.


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## LifeAfter (Mar 24, 2013)

akiskev said:


> I want to know what this lovely community thinks about this matter!
> I know I will be a bit disappointed, but don't get me wrong: I won't judge the camera just from its sensor. It can be a great DSLR no matter what sensor it will have..



It wouldn't be disappointing having 18mp, but being ''the same sensor'' YES, that would be DISAPPOINTING.


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## x-vision (Mar 24, 2013)

akiskev said:


> I just want to see a "next gen" sensor by Canon though. Something that will be on par with Sony/Oly sensors.



+1


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## LifeAfter (Mar 24, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> I won't be disappointed if the 70D gets the 'old' sensor, but I *will* be disappointed if the 7DII doesn't get a meaningfully improved sensor.



+1


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## heptagon (Mar 24, 2013)

1 stop ISO improvement is hardly possible. Maybe 1/2 or 1/3 stop. What would, however, be possible are 3 stops in dynamic range at ISO 100. What would also be possible is to significantly increase the number of pixels without losing sensitivity after downscaling. 

Therefore the safest bet is a higher megapixel sensor with slightly more noise and the same dynamic range after downscaling. Sad but true.


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## preppyak (Mar 24, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...


Well, people are using 6400 and 12800 comfortably on the 5DIII and 1DX, which was about a stop up from the 5dII. So, if people's cutoff point is say, 1600 with a 60D/7D, then a 3200 that looks similar would be a 1-stop improvement. Even if it's 1/2 stop, its usually enough to open up the barrier to the next ISO level

I don't doubt Canon can do it...it's just a question of where they want the 70D to fit in. Do they think making the 70D essentially what the 7D is/was right now is sufficient? For me, the answer would be no without better sensor performance. I can get a 7D for pretty cheap on the used market, rather than paying their retail price.


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## x-vision (Mar 24, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> 1+ stop better ISO than what?



Better than the current 18mp sensor - which Canon has been reusing for four years now. 



> And the 1DX quality sensor will never be in a 70D or 7D Mark II.



Canon will certainly not put the 1DX sensor in a lower camera. 

You have to realize, though, that Canon has been using a 10+ years old manufacturing process for their senors.
This has been confirmed by Chipworks, who put various Canon sensors under a microscope (literally). 

Sooner rather than later, Canon will switch to a more modern manufacturing process. 
When that happens, we'll see noticeable improvements in image quality compared to previous sensors. 

So, the question is, when will Canon make the switch?
Is it going to be with the 70D, 7DII, or some of the higher end cameras.


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## Canon-F1 (Mar 24, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Do you actually believe that the number of megapixels means its the same sensor? Perhaps you think the T4i has the same sensor, after its also 18mp, and then the T5i too.
> Does the G11 have the same sensor as the old Canon 5D? Both are 12 mp, as is the Nikon D700.



after DXOmark the results get worse from the 550D to the 650D.. so no the sensors are not exactly the same.. they are worse. :


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## simonxu11 (Mar 24, 2013)

Canon-F1 said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Do you actually believe that the number of megapixels means its the same sensor? Perhaps you think the T4i has the same sensor, after its also 18mp, and then the T5i too.
> ...


+10000


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## GaryJ (Mar 24, 2013)

LifeAfter said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > I won't be disappointed if the 70D gets the 'old' sensor, but I *will* be disappointed if the 7DII doesn't get a meaningfully improved sensor.
> ...


+1


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 24, 2013)

heptagon said:


> 1 stop ISO improvement is hardly possible. Maybe 1/2 or 1/3 stop. What would, however, be possible are 3 stops in dynamic range at ISO 100. What would also be possible is to significantly increase the number of pixels without losing sensitivity after downscaling.
> 
> Therefore the safest bet is a higher megapixel sensor with slightly more noise and the same dynamic range after downscaling. Sad but true.


+1
one stop is wishful thinking.


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## jebrady03 (Mar 24, 2013)

Absolutely I'll be disappointed if the 70D doesn't have an improved (image quality-wise) sensor. Whether I intend to buy it or not is irrelevant to my disappointment because I do intend to upgrade my 60D at some point. If it's the 70D with an improved sensor or an 80D with an improved sensor on top of the 70D's improved sensor - doesn't matter to me. As long as there are noticeable improvements each time, that's what concerns me. Otherwise, Canon is falling behind and not offering IQ in the same ballpark as the competition and ultimately, that's what I want (class leading or at least class equivalent IQ) when I do decide to upgrade.


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## steliosk (Mar 24, 2013)

same sensor = same IQ or worse (check dxo or dpreview samples where 600D has better quality than 650D)
no reason to upgrade


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## insanitybeard (Mar 25, 2013)

Yes, I think Canon needs to show it hasn't stagnated and that it is able/willing to improve this particular area of it's APS-C camera bodies. Considering how long 4 years is in technology/electronics time, I am surprised it has been this long.


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## Kathode-Ray (Mar 25, 2013)

Yes, I would be disappointed, but I think it is to be expected that it will be the same. The new Digic will improve noise behaviour a bit and Canon will probably add some new features like WiFi/GPS. Add flip-screen and support for STM lenses.

I hope they put AFMA back in the 70D... sigh...


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## Marsu42 (Mar 25, 2013)

It really depends what "the same" is, because the good ol' 18mp sensor has come a long way from the 7d (haunted by banding) to the newer Rebels with af helper pixels for lv focusing.

If they find a way to squeeze the last performance out of the tech like on the 6d (better noise patter = easier to nr, zero banding, some more dynamic range) *and* the 70d has great features *and* a very reasonable price the 70d will still be a great camera for shooting in good light. But knowing Canon that won't happen, it's either a lukewarm update *or* much more expensive than the competition d7100.


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## dizeaz (Mar 25, 2013)

I will be disappointed no matter what they release. Even if I'm not waiting for the camera nor planning to buy it.
I already made up my mind.


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## K-amps (Mar 25, 2013)

I would be ok if they gave us a 12-16 mp sensor with better shadow pull IQ and 1 stop high ISO capability... I think they could do this even with current tech they have been using... and would be disappointed if they kept the same 18mp sensor.

Personally... I'd like to see them release a 70D with 20-24mp and a 7Dii with a 14-16 mp low noise, high DR monster.


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## paul13walnut5 (Mar 25, 2013)

It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality.

I doubt the majority of target 70D users need anything more than 18MP. In fact if 1DX owners are happy with 18MP then it clearly isn't just about resolution.

Given the poor showing this sensor gets from DxO (if that matters to you, not a jot to me) then the fact that the cameras built around it can still give very good results speaks volumes for the wonders worked by the digic processors.

A newly designed 18MP with digic 6 could be really something. Even the old 18Mp with digic 6 could be something.

I am struggling to think what features canon could add that would make the camera a must have. The last must haves for me were PAL video, manual video exposure, manual audio levels, wireless flash was great, and the flip out screen really handy for video.

The 70D will have to be really something to tempt me to change, as I know the limitations and strengths of my current kit, which is why I haven't changed before now.

I'm not going to buy a 7D2 or 5D4 until my exsisting kit no longer delivers the goods. Maybe this is an old fashioned view. But then in video land I have lots of other things to buy beyond the camera and lenses (£500 for a mic, £150 for cans, £900 for tripod, £1500 for lights, £350 for audio interface, £3500 for mac and software, £1200 for RAID) incremental upgrades push a new camera down the list when what I have is working fine.


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## RS2021 (Mar 25, 2013)

With xxD bodies Canon "jumped the shark" when they updated the 50D with 60D... can't say I care that much with what they put in 70D. 

Its like parading a Granny in supermodel clothes...still wrinkled and saggy underneath


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## Area256 (Mar 25, 2013)

Having just sold a 60D, I'm not about to buy the 70D, still it would be nice to see some new sensor tech - if only because it means it'll find its way into higher end models. My money would be on the 7D2 getting the new sensor though - if the new sensor is really a lot better, than it makes sense to put it in an expensive body to get some of the R&D money back. The 70D will have to go head-to-head with the D7100, but the 7D2 as rumoured will have no real completion, so Canon can charge a lot more...


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 25, 2013)

If it is the *same* sensor, yes it'd obviously be a disappointment ... but I don't care about the "Mega Pixel" count and have no problem if it is 18 MP as long as it is a newly developed sensor.


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## Nishi Drew (Mar 25, 2013)

I think some people are missing the point about Canon using the 18mp over and over, who cares if the next camera has 18mp resolution, might as well have less, it's about how they've been using the same sensor for every release post 7D. That's insane, from 7D to 60D to every rebel and M, I have a friend's 60D on me now and good grief ISO 400 and the noise can't touch that of the 5DMk2, daylight fine, but indoor I can't just shoot at 3200 and brush up some loose noise like with the 5DII and that's even older now. Feels like sensor tech is in a standstill since 2008, of course FF beats Crop, but 5yr old FF beating the crop sensor that Canon proudly presents in 2013?? If they don't stuff something worth it in the 70D then the 7DMk2 better or.... I might just break and throw them more money for an expensive FF (cursing Canon and wishing I made the move to the dark side, Canon video hasn't budged either and just sucks compared to everyone else nowadays.)
The 5DMk3 is good but not 'that' much better over the Mk2, I'll choose that if I could spare for it, and the 1DX sure, but that's an impossible league for most.
So, YES, will be disappointed if the 70D had the same sensor


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## paul13walnut5 (Mar 25, 2013)

with x0D series looked at in isolation. At the same time they gave us the 7D, which was, and remains miles above the x0D series cameras, and perhaps after the _meh_ incremental upgrades from 20d, 30d, 40d is perhaps the camera that the 50d should have been all along.

The 60D is hard done to I think, why for example would folk who want mfa not also want a half decent AF system like they put in the 7D?

Who really uses PC synch sockets anymore? (well me, but I suspect I am an exceptional case, and I only use it occassionally)

They also gave the rebels a better AF system to give that range more seperation in the 650D.

Are and should x0D users be a protected species? do we need the x0D series at all? If the 7D2 is priced bonkers nuts then there may be a more natural place for a new x0D camera to come in.

If the 7D2 is priced well then I don't think we need a 70D.

To play devils addvocate i would be delighted if the 70D had an 8MP 16:9 sensor, like that from the c100/300.

It would satisfy my stills requirements and probably make for an ideal budget cinema EOS.


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## interpilot (Mar 25, 2013)

Yes, very much so. It's quite simple really: I'll buy one if it has an improved sensor, AFMA, and nicer (the 7d's 19pt?) AF. I don't see why any of these wouldn't happen. If they wouldn't have waited for an improved sensor, they could (would, should) have kicked a 70D out the door a year ago; if they weren't planning improved AF, they wouldn't have moved the 60D's current AF system down to the 650D.

If not, I'll probably go off in the other direction, and invest in pure shooting pleasure.. probably meaning Fuji, as soon as they add a decent longer lens. Although I am wondering if that isn't the better route to begin with .


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## interpilot (Mar 25, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> with x0D series looked at in isolation. At the same time they gave us the 7D, which was, and remains miles above the x0D series cameras, and perhaps after the _meh_ incremental upgrades from 20d, 30d, 40d is perhaps the camera that the 50d should have been all along.
> 
> The 60D is hard done to I think, why for example would folk who want mfa not also want a half decent AF system like they put in the 7D?
> 
> ...



Except that I wouldn't want a camera of those dimensions (both size and weight). If it would be 60D-like in those aspects, fine with me . But apparently, both Canon and Nikon seem to think that more "advanced" features are inherently tied to bigger and heavier bodies :-\


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## RGF (Mar 25, 2013)

If the 7D M2 has a sensor that is not improved over T4i, .... then it will be time to switch to Nikon


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## kubelik (Mar 25, 2013)

that fact that I can now buy a computer that's twice as fast and half as expensive as it was in 2009 tells me everything I need to know about how much Canon has been milking their APS-C chip. sure they've added on-chip autofocus now, but a badly implemented feature does not count as improvement.

I'm really happy to see Canon diving into a whole bunch of new areas with cameras like the EOS M and the SL1, but let's get something straight: the body development team are not (hopefully not) the same guys that are the sensor development team. so there is no justification for the near-zero evolution of Canon's APS-C sensor line.

is there anything inherently wrong with the 18 MP APS-C sensor? no. we were pretty happy when the 7D got released with it, and while it never came close to matching the 5DII's sensor, I don't think anyone really expected it to. the sensor was great then, and is just as good now as it was then. the issue to me isn't really the sensor itself, it's what it signifies from Canon. it's Canon telling us that they don't feel that they need to innovate. it's Canon telling us they think we're dumb enough to think that sticking a t5i sticker on a t4i means it's "new". it's Canon lying to us that we shouldn't judge the chip's autofocus speed on the EOS M because it's pre-production, and it'll get much faster by the time of the actual release.

I don't think the folks at Canon are stupid, but I do feel they take the liberty of thinking that their consumer base is a little dim. the t5i is definitely toeing the line of "let's see how sheep-like our customer base is" and I hope the 70D and 7DII have not been treated the same way.


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## Peter007 (Mar 25, 2013)

I bought my first DSLR a Canon 60D two years ago for a decent price with an 18 -200mm lens. It take fantastic video but lacks the auto-focus mode. The best feature by far is the articulated viewer which I use for awkward shots. After being introduced in 2010 I would expect the 70D to have better ISO performance, more auto-focus points and auto-focus during video and 7fps continuous. If it comes in a 24mp sensor I would buy it on the spot. I looked at the Canon 6D but for my liking is missing a flip up flash and the articulated viewer which are very handy.
70D with a 24mp sensor please!!


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## CanNotYet (Mar 25, 2013)

kubelik said:


> that fact that I can now buy a computer that's twice as fast and half as expensive as it was in 2009 tells me everything I need to know about how much Canon has been milking their APS-C chip. sure they've added on-chip autofocus now, but a badly implemented feature does not count as improvement.
> 
> I'm really happy to see Canon diving into a whole bunch of new areas with cameras like the EOS M and the SL1, but let's get something straight: the body development team are not (hopefully not) the same guys that are the sensor development team. so there is no justification for the near-zero evolution of Canon's APS-C sensor line.
> 
> ...


I agree fully with this. Well put, my friend!


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## Drum (Mar 25, 2013)

will anybody actually believe that it is a NEW sensor if it does have 18mp? An incremental upgrade isn't an option after 2.5 years. There also has to be some separation between the 650/700 d and the newer lines.


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## kubelik (Mar 25, 2013)

Drum said:


> will anybody actually believe that it is a NEW sensor if it does have 18mp? An incremental upgrade isn't an option after 2.5 years. There also has to be some separation between the 650/700 d and the newer lines.



the 5DIII has at least a 2/3-stop noise improvement over the 5DII, even though their pixel density is very similar. trust me, if they really put out an improved 18 MP sensor, people will give them credit where it's due.

however, if they "improve" it so marginally that it's impossible to tell, that's not called improvement, and everyone will give them the mud-to-the-face that would be deserved at that point


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## Marsu42 (Mar 25, 2013)

Drum said:


> will anybody actually believe that it is a NEW sensor if it does have 18mp?



No way - Canon will make it 19mp to keep it above the old 18mp sensors, but below the 20mp 6d :-> ... or they'll go for 25mp just for the sake of having more than Nikon's aps-c.


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## Act444 (Mar 25, 2013)

If the MP count stays at 18 MP - no. 

If the high ISO performance shows no improvement - yes.


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## Don Haines (Mar 26, 2013)

I read a rumour elsewhere that the 70D will have Digic 6 and the same sensor as the EOS-SL1.

Of course, it is just a rumour.... anyone can make up a rumour... Only time will tell.


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## TheBadger (Mar 26, 2013)

akiskev said:


> GUYS! Chill!
> I was referring to the generation/technology of the sensor and not to the number of the megapixels themselves! I don't care about the megapixel count as long as they are more than 8 (personally 10mp is enough for my needs).
> 
> I just want to see a "next gen" sensor by Canon though. Something that will be on par with Sony/Oly sensors.



Maybe we should start calling it the "7D sensor" from now on.


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## rpt (Mar 26, 2013)

No.


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## RLPhoto (Mar 26, 2013)

Nope.


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## EchoLocation (Mar 26, 2013)

Is this thread just trolling for an argument.... of course people will be disappointed if they don't start changing sensors after so many releases with the same one.
There's no chance i'm buying the 70D, so I really don't care all that much, but just for the sake of progress in the camera industry, i'd be very disappointed if they don't have something better.


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## CarlTN (Mar 26, 2013)

The 70D will get a "new" 18mp 1.6x crop sensor, and it either will, or will not, get "digic 6" processing. I'm disappointed enough, but I didn't need much more of an excuse to just go full frame...so I did. I'm keeping my "old" 50D, though. Unless the 70D inherits the "old" 7D's AF sensor, or something very very close to it, then it's not worth the upgrade to me. If it does get it, and sells for around $1300, then it just might be a great value.


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## bardamu (Mar 26, 2013)

Yeah the thread does seem pretty redundant the way it is. Perhaps a more interesting way to look at it might be: What will / should potential 70D buyers do if it somehow turns out to be a disappointment.

a) keep shooting with existing camera, don't upgrade b) Nikon D7100 or similar c) lower-tier FF (6D, 5D II, D600) d) wait on the 7D mk ii e) get a 7D f) something else

Those seem like the most obvious choices. Obviously depends partly on individual needs / existing kit.


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## K-amps (Mar 26, 2013)

kubelik said:


> that fact that I can now buy a computer that's twice as fast and half as expensive as it was in 2009 tells me everything I need to know about how much Canon has been milking their APS-C chip. sure they've added on-chip autofocus now, but a badly implemented feature does not count as improvement.
> 
> I'm really happy to see Canon diving into a whole bunch of new areas with cameras like the EOS M and the SL1, but let's get something straight: the body development team are not (hopefully not) the same guys that are the sensor development team. so there is no justification for the near-zero evolution of Canon's APS-C sensor line.
> 
> ...



+1 Well Said. 

The innovator of 2008 is the follower of 2011...


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