# The Best of Photokina 2016, and a Few Things That Make You Go Hmmmm



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 22, 2016)

```
We didn’t head to Photokina this year for a host of reasons, but we definitely paid attention to what was going on. It looks like it has been a great show with a lot of great announcements.</p>
<p>I figured I’d rank the best things we saw at Photokina, and a few things we’ll have to wait and see on. Keep in mind, beyond the EOS 5D Mark IV, we haven’t actually had our hands on any of the gear announced in Cologne.</p>
<p>You can see all the Photokina items for preorder <a href="https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/items/ci/32624/ipp/60/N/3614572237/view/GRID/bi/2466/kbid/3296">over at B&H Photo</a>.</p>
<p><strong>Top Announcements at Photokina</strong></p>
<p><strong>Fujifilm GFX 50S</strong></p>
<p>I’m so happy that the rumors of Fujifilm medium format system has turned out to be true. What excites me more is that it’s likely to come in at under $10,000 USD including a prime lens.</p>
<p>I think the sub $10,000 medium format segment is potentially bigger than some people thing and that they’re going to sell a lot of cameras. What’s most important is that Fuji must get the lenses for the system out to the market as quickly as possible, when people don’t have lens options, they tend to look elsewhere. Fuji can make great lenses, so I’m not worried about the quality of the optics.</p>
<p>The Leica S has always been my favorite “medium format” body, but I’m staying away from the system until we see a 50mp or higher sensor (I’d love to see 80mp). The lenses are absolutely stellar, as are the ergonomics of the camera, but I just can’t justify the cost for the resolution.</p>
<p>I think the GFX 50S will pass the Pentax 645 system in popularity fairly quickly.</p>
<p>Well done Fujifilm, there’s a chance you’re going to take my money.</p>
<p><strong>Canon EOS  5D Mark IV</strong></p>
<p>I count this as a Photokina announcement, and I was so impressed they were able to get it to the masses so quickly. This is obviously the only product on this list I’ve had the chance to play with, and I think it’s a great step forward for the 5D line.</p>
<p>When you release a replacement for the most popular full frame camera in the world, you’re going to get a ton of criticism along with praise. Most of the criticism has come from the videographer world, while I respect their opinions. The majority of buyers for the EOS 5D Mark IV will be using the camera for still photography, just like the previous iterations. We did some unscientific market research at Lens Rentals Canada, and more that 95% of the people that rented the 5D Mark III, did so for still photography.</p>
<p>This camera is going to be a workhorse for professionals the world over for many years to come.</p>
<p>Well done Canon, you already took my money.</p>
<p><strong>Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG Art</strong></p>
<p>It’s finally here! It seems the entire photography community has been waiting for the 85mm f/1.4 Art and the excitement for the announcement has been over the top.</p>
<p>Sigma is promising that this lens will equal the Zeiss Otus 85mm f/1.4 in optical performance, and give you the benefit of autofocus for a fraction of the cost. If Sigma gets anywhere near this claim, they’re going to have themselves a massive success.</p>
<p>We’re hoping for a new Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L III some time in 2017, because it may be hard to resist this Sigma offering.</p>
<p><strong>Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L III</strong></p>
<p>I had this preordered a week before it was announced, it’s by far the most anticipated product in my world. If this lens carries on the performance of Canon lenses released in the last couple of years, it’s going to become the best wide angle zoom in the world.</p>
<p>I’m hoping for better optical performance than the brilliant EF 16-35mm f/4L IS, with the added bonus of an extra stop of light for event photography.</p>
<p>I’ve found the EF 11-24mm f/4L to be too wide and too big for most of my uses, even though it is an amazing piece of glass.</p>
<p>I have a feeling a lot credit cards will be getting abused once this lens starts shipping.</p>
<p><strong>The Top Wait and See Announcements at Photokina</strong></p>
<p><strong>Sigma 500mm f/4 OS Sport</strong></p>
<p>The knock on Sigma has always been consistent autofocus performance. If there was a focal length where consistency is paramount, 500mm would be it. We’re hoping Sigma has improved in this area and that the brand new $6000 supertelephoto turns out to be a steal, considering the brilliant Canon equivalent is about 50% more expensive.</p>
<p>Tamron seems to have focused on AF accuracy over AF speed, and I’ve found their latest primes to be about as consistent as you can expect from a third party manufacturer. The slightly slower speed of the AF hasn’t bothered me for my shooting style.</p>
<p><strong>Canon EOS M5</strong></p>
<p>I had some initial excitement for this camera. It looks to be a lot better from a ergonomic standpoint as well as technologically. The 24.2mp sensor is a great APS-C sensor and DPAF is a remarkable technology.</p>
<p>My problem is they still haven’t addressed the lens issues with the EOS M system. This is a $1000 camera body, and as such, there should be some higher end fast primes available for it. I will never use an 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM, no matter how great it is.</p>
<p>I look forward to using the camera with an open mind and I hope we see new lenses announced in the first half of 2017 to compliment it.</p>
<p>You can sound off in the forum with your favorite products of 2016, I’m sure I have overlooked something!</p>
<p><a href="https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/items/ci/32624/ipp/60/N/3614572237/view/GRID/bi/2466/kbid/3296">Preorder all of the items announced at Photokina</a></p>
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## Dylan777 (Sep 22, 2016)

"Well done Fujifilm, there’s a chance you’re going to take my money."

I might join that list too Craig, plus native 110mm f2


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 22, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> I think the sub $10,000 medium format segment is potentially bigger than some people thing and that they’re going to sell a lot of cameras.
> 
> The Leica S has always been my favorite “medium format” body



I'd hope it would be bigger. Given that Leica previously extimated the entire global medium format market at ~6,000 units per year, it's a pretty small pie to be sliced up.


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## Aaron D (Sep 22, 2016)

Yep, some fast primes would be great for the M5. They don't have to be as stylish as the present series, either, just small and sharp.

And I hope Canon reads this: the perfect M FOUR would have a built-in viewfinder withOUT a penta-lump on top. Put it to the side for better pocket-fittability....


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## j-nord (Sep 22, 2016)

Fujifilm GFX 50S - medium format is well outside my affordability range and also impractical for most of my shooting so I don't pay much attention to it.

Canon EOS 5D Mark IV - great step forward but not quite the super all round stills camera that has me pulling the trigger.

Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG Art - great to see though not of particular use to me. Love to play with one at some point.

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L III - want, want, want, waiting to see coma tests!!!!!!

Sigma 500mm f/4 OS Sport - exactly the kind of super tele prime competition I want to see more of! Interested to see how it performs although I think a 500 f5.6 OS Sport would have been more my cup of tea (doubt they'd bother since they have the two 150-600 lenses)

Canon EOS M5 - nothing to see here but I guess its a 1/2 step in the right direction.


Next up 6DII - will Canon have any surprising specs or will it be exactly what we are expecting?


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## nightscape123 (Sep 22, 2016)

What happened to all the Tamron announcements? I thought they were supposed to announce a whole host of new lenses as well?


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## tmroper (Sep 22, 2016)

I think the Panasonic GH5 is a huge announcement. 10-bit 4K video internally at 4:2:2 in a camera that small and inexpensive is something that no one has done since the Blackmagic pocket, and many have been wanting. It sets a new bar.


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## unfocused (Sep 22, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> We're hoping Sigma has improved in this area and that the brand new $6000 supertelephoto turns out to be a steal, considering the brilliant Canon equivalent is twice the price.



Except that it isn't twice the price. $6,0000 vs. $9,000 ($8,400 CPW street price and $7,200 refurbished price). If the sigma actually sells for closer to half the price of the Canon ($4,500 street price or on special) then it could be a winner, but $6,000 is too close in price to the Canon.


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## weixing (Sep 22, 2016)

Aaron D said:


> Yep, some fast primes would be great for the M5. They don't have to be as stylish as the present series, either, just small and sharp.
> 
> And I hope Canon reads this: the perfect M FOUR would have a built-in viewfinder withOUT a penta-lump on top. Put it to the side for better pocket-fittability....


Hi,
After looking at the size of the Olympus ED 25mm F1.2 Pro (and this is for m4/3), I think if a fast mirrorless lens is going to be as big as an EF lens, I might well get an EF lens with an adapter... at least I can also use it on my DSLR.

Have a nice day.


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## asl (Sep 22, 2016)

tmroper said:


> I think the Panasonic GH5 is a huge announcement. 10-bit 4K video internally at 4:2:2 in a camera that small and inexpensive is something that no one has done since the Blackmagic pocket, and many have been wanting. It sets a new bar.



Yes, this seems impressive. I am not totally convinced to buy in to mft (yet..) but it is tempting. As video is important to my use.


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## jebrady03 (Sep 22, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG Art
> It’s finally here! It seems the entire photography community has been waiting for the 85mm f/1.4 Art and the excitement for the announcement has been over the top.
> Sigma is promising that this lens will equal the Zeiss Otus 85mm f/1.4 in optical performance, and give you the benefit of autofocus for a fraction of the cost. If Sigma gets anywhere near this claim, they’re going to have themselves a massive success.
> We’re hoping for a new Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L III some time in 2017, because it may be hard to resist this Sigma offering.



The question is, will the AF be barely better than the Zeiss Otus? I had the 50 Art tuned to my 5D Mark III and since the 5D Mark IV arrived, I haven't touched the lens because I don't want to go through the long, drawn out process of tuning the damn thing again. I too am hoping for an 85L III in the very near future. Even an 85mm f/1.4L would be fine with me. And I don't need 85/1.8 or 135/2 focusing speed, but as long as the AF speed isn't DEAD LAST in their current lineup (65 macro withstanding), I'll happily purchase it immediately.

If they can master the AF and if the busy-bokeh-bug doesn't hit the Sigma and it renders nicely (as well as the 85L II or Otus), then I won't even bother with waiting for Canon.


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## midluk (Sep 22, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> *Canon EOS M5*
> I had some initial excitement for this camera. It looks to be a lot better from a ergonomic standpoint as well as technologically. The 24.2mp sensor is a great APS-C sensor and DPAF is a remarkable technology.
> My problem is they still haven’t addressed the lens issues with the EOS M system. This is a $1000 camera body, and as such, there should be some higher end fast primes available for it. I will never use an 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM, no matter how great it is.
> I look forward to using the camera with an open mind and I hope we see new lenses announced in the first half of 2017 to compliment it.



I had a look at the M5 in cologne. Canon made the mistake to put the cameras where some flickering light was visible. The flicker in the EVF really turned me off.
And I didn't manage to comfortably use any of the wheels (definitely not the weel around the shutter button) to adjust any settings from the normal holding position of my right hand.

I was definitely considering an M5 as a smaller second camera before, but cologne has deGASed me in this regard.


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## AvTvM (Sep 22, 2016)

i do not understand the continuos wish for "some faster EF-M primes". 
My impression is it comes mainly from people who have not really thought about size and cost of such lenses. Just look at Fuji and their XF lenses. Those f/1.4 and f/1.2 clunkers are nearly as big as FF lenses and rather expensive to really expensive. I don't think many people in their right mind would be willing to shell out a grand or more a piece for big fat EF-M *CROP ONLY* f/1.4 fast primes. 

I'll much rather continue to ask Canon for a kick ass FF-sensored MILC system, fully competitive with Sony A7/R II series. Once there is an FF sensor inside that camera, we can use excellent, affordable and compact f/1.8 lenses to get the same photographic functionality than from a bigger, much more expensive crop f/1.2 lens on APS-C sensor. I would love to see that FF MILC come with a native 24/2.0 STM pancake, a 50/1.8 STM IS and a 85/2.4 IS STM prime. And if others want f/1.4 or f/0.95 lenses instead and are willing to pay through the nose for them and carry aroud OTUS-sized clunkers ... fine with me. Canon should sell these too, then.  

PS: Pending reviews and results of a personal hands-on, I am very inclined to buy an EOS M5 with 18-150. Once price has come down.  Not willing to spend a ton on crop-sensor cameras or lenses. Only other EF-M lens I'd definitely buy is a compact, moderately fast, moderately priced EF-M 80 or 85mm/2.4 IS STM.


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## josephandrews222 (Sep 22, 2016)

...any whispers about an updated G9X?


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## Tom W (Sep 22, 2016)

I share the sentiment that the EF-M lens lineup is a little short. I really don't think it would be difficult to make the modest changes necessary to 3 or 4 full frame lenses to adapt them to the EOS-M lineup. 35/2 IS, 50/1.4 or 1.8STM, 85/1.8 - these would all be welcome partners to the EF-M 22 mm lens. Something a little wider than 22 mm would also be welcome, as 22 works out to a field of view of a 35 mm on a full frame body. Something in the 15 mm range would be welcome.

A moderately fast zoom would be welcome also - say, a 15-45 f/4 IS.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 22, 2016)

unfocused said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > We're hoping Sigma has improved in this area and that the brand new $6000 supertelephoto turns out to be a steal, considering the brilliant Canon equivalent is twice the price.
> ...



Sometimes I think in Canadian pricing, I have corrected the issue.


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## gregorywood (Sep 22, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> i do not understand the continuos wish for "some faster EF-M primes".
> My impression is it comes mainly from people who have not really thought about size and cost of such lenses. Just look at Fuji and their XF lenses. Those f/1.4 and f/1.2 clunkers are nearly as big as FF lenses and rather expensive to really expensive. I don't think many people in their right mind would be willing to shell out a grand or more a piece for big fat EF-M *CROP ONLY* f/1.4 fast primes.
> 
> I'll much rather continue to ask Canon for a kick ass FF-sensored MILC system, fully competitive with Sony A7/R II series. Once there is an FF sensor inside that camera, we can use excellent, affordable and compact f/1.8 lenses to get the same photographic functionality than from a bigger, much more expensive crop f/1.2 lens on APS-C sensor. I would love to see that FF MILC come with a native 24/2.0 STM pancake, a 50/1.8 STM IS and a 85/2.4 IS STM prime. And if others want f/1.4 or f/0.95 lenses instead and are willing to pay through the nose for them and carry aroud OTUS-sized clunkers ... fine with me. Canon should sell these too, then.
> ...



I'll second this sentiment. I like the idea of the M5 and what it could be. The issue is the native glass is not that great and if I bolt on L glass with an adapter, it just gives me a slightly smaller body and slightly less weight over my DSLR package with the same glass. I'd like better native M glass, or a full frame M with an EF mount.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 22, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > I think the sub $10,000 medium format segment is potentially bigger than some people thing and that they’re going to sell a lot of cameras.
> ...



That number is extremely low. Phase One on their own moves about 5000 backs a year I've been told. Throw in Leica, Hasselblad and the best selling medium format camera the 645 and that numbers rises significantly. Price is everything on this one for Fuji.


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## Don Haines (Sep 22, 2016)

gregorywood said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > i do not understand the continuos wish for "some faster EF-M primes".
> ...


Me three!
Has anyone else noticed that there are now 2 M zooms slower than the magic F5.6 number? It's almost like Canon wants to make tiny lenses to go with their tiny camera....


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## vangelismm (Sep 22, 2016)

> I will never use an 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM, no matter how great it is.





> Those f/1.4 and f/1.2 clunkers are nearly as big as FF lenses and rather expensive to really expensive.



Ok, give me more f/2 prime lens.


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## Bob Howland (Sep 22, 2016)

Tom W said:


> I share the sentiment that the EF-M lens lineup is a little short. I really don't think it would be difficult to make the modest changes necessary to 3 or 4 full frame lenses to adapt them to the EOS-M lineup. 35/2 IS, 50/1.4 or 1.8STM, 85/1.8 - these would all be welcome partners to the EF-M 22 mm lens. Something a little wider than 22 mm would also be welcome, as 22 works out to a field of view of a 35 mm on a full frame body. Something in the 15 mm range would be welcome.
> 
> A moderately fast zoom would be welcome also - say, a 15-45 f/4 IS.



+1 on the zoom but not for the native primes. For one thing, I think you're underestimating the difficulty in converting the 35, 50's and 85mm lenses to mirrorless. Besides the EF-to-M mount adapter can always be used with those lenses and my guess is that most of the buyers of the M5 will be people who already own EF and EF-S lenses. Although I own more primes than zooms, the primes are definitely special purpose: TS-E, macro and high speed lenses left over from when I was photographing rock bands. I use zooms for more than 95% of my shots. What I really want is a 0.64X Metabones Speed Booster. If I'm going to put a 24-70 f/2.8 boat anchor of a lens on an M5, I want it to be a 24-70 f/1.8.


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## douglaurent (Sep 23, 2016)

Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.

The Canon stand was an impressive waste of space, with maybe just 1/20 of the hall that was reserved for actual camera and lens products you can test and buy. The rest was photo books, free space, movie walls, lens lineups behind glass etc. As I already own the 5D4 there was nothing new to see at all. Pretty disappointing for this huge and expensive stand, which was half of a huge hall.

The most exciting Canon products have been those you can not buy yet. They did show the 120 megapixel prototype camera in a 5D style body, which did show amazing details in their well lighted test arrangement. After asking, one can assume at some point in the future they will release 120 and also 250MP models. Just would be interesting to see if they are usable above ISO400.

In a future zone Canon also did show a 55" 8K prototype monitor, along with the new 8K video camera and 8K zoom lens. Playing with that was fun and the results do look great, although the step by far isn't as big as the step between 1080p and 4K has been before. 

At the current speed of innovation through Canon it's unlike they will sell the first affordable 8K camera before the year 2020. But you can always feel: if Canon wants to achieve something, they can do it and have the technology. It's just sad they are so slow in releasing these features, and even slower in offering great features in an affordable way.


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## unfocused (Sep 23, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.



It's the giant trade shows like Photokina that are dinosaurs. Nikon and Canon need to have a presence, but they put their big marketing dollars into more effective efforts with a better return on investment. Niche players go all out because it's a cheap way for them to make a splash, but the two major players don't really need these shows.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 23, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.



What do you think happens to the vast majority of printed brochures from trade shows? Recycled hopefully, but more likely in a landfill. Now _that's_ annoying. 

The term 'dinosaurs' is better applied to those who prefer to get their information in a printed form, rather than digitally. Doug, if you want to learn more about the city of Cologne, I recommend the Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 'C'. Oh, wait...they killed the printed version years ago.


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## Tom W (Sep 23, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> i do not understand the continuos wish for "some faster EF-M primes".
> My impression is it comes mainly from people who have not really thought about size and cost of such lenses. Just look at Fuji and their XF lenses. Those f/1.4 and f/1.2 clunkers are nearly as big as FF lenses and rather expensive to really expensive. I don't think many people in their right mind would be willing to shell out a grand or more a piece for big fat EF-M *CROP ONLY* f/1.4 fast primes.


I will point out that there are some relatively small fast primes in the Canon lineup - the 35/2 IS, the 50/1.8 STM, the 50/1.4, the 85/1.8 and the old 20/2.8. And the 22/2 EF-M is pretty small. I would say that there could definitely be some moderately fast primes designed for the mirrorless body that would be fairly small in stature. At least at the short-medium focal length range.

Granted, there won't be any 135 f/2 EF-M because there would be no size benefit gained for such a lens. Ditto the 85/1.2. But really, if you're going to go that big, get the adapter and use your EF lenses on your M5.


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## brad-man (Sep 23, 2016)

Tom W said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > i do not understand the continuos wish for "some faster EF-M primes".
> ...



Absolutely. Canon certainly has the expertise to produce small and sharp M primes between f/1.8 and 2.4. A set of 14mm, 50mm and 85mm lenses would be terribly useful and easily pocketable. Add IS if it doesn't increase the size too much. I'm not so convinced they could make a compact f/4 standard zoom, but there are always compromises. They finally built the right mirrorless, now they need to build some lenses that will take advantage of it. Unfortunately, their bean counting wizards are probably advising against it, so we'll have to wait and see.


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## dak723 (Sep 23, 2016)

It seems to be there are two major markets for the m5 - people who want a mirrorless rebel - and more advanced users that will use the m5 as a second (or third) camera. The first group - probably by far the larger group, will never buy a prime lens. They want one, maybe two at the most, lenses that will be on the camera for all types of photos and situations. So a general standard zoom and maybe a telephoto zoom. That is all they will need - and quite frankly, all I have needed for the past 25 years. The second group, Canon will assume (probably rightly so) that they already have primes if that is what they want. All they need is the adapter. If I did have primes, that's what I would use. Why in the world would I spend my hard earned money buying M primes when I already have EF primes? Because a few well-to-do enthusiasts would buy both is hardly a reason for Canon to spend the time and money on what I believe would be a very niche product. Just my opinion of course.


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## Woody (Sep 23, 2016)

What happened to this CR2 rumor:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=28160.msg555455#msg555455

"We’re told Canon will introduce two new EF-M prime lenses in Q1 of 2016. Both of these lenses will be slightly upmarket in build and design when compared to the current crop of EF-M lenses."

Sigh...


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## Luds34 (Sep 23, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> i do not understand the continuos wish for "some faster EF-M primes".
> My impression is it comes mainly from people who have not really thought about size and cost of such lenses. Just look at Fuji and their XF lenses. Those f/1.4 and f/1.2 clunkers are nearly as big as FF lenses and rather expensive to really expensive. I don't think many people in their right mind would be willing to shell out a grand or more a piece for big fat EF-M *CROP ONLY* f/1.4 fast primes.



First off, I think most people consider f/2 to be fast primes. Have you looked at "those" f/2 primes from Fuji XF? They are tiny! 43mm filter size for the 35mm? That is a small lens. FYI, it only weighs 170g.

2nd, the f/1.4 lenses are not that big, certainly no where near top full frame glass (L or Art).

Fuji XF 23mm f/1.4 - 301g, Length 2.5"
Fuji XF 35mm f/1.4 - 187g, Length 2.2"



AvTvM said:


> PS: Pending reviews and results of a personal hands-on, I am very inclined to buy an EOS M5 with 18-150.



This seems like a contradiction. So you won't mount these "clunkers" prime lenses you discuss above, but you'd use a large super zoom that's even bigger? :


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## Luds34 (Sep 23, 2016)

Tom W said:


> I will point out that there are some relatively small fast primes in the Canon lineup - the 35/2 IS, the 50/1.8 STM, the 50/1.4, the 85/1.8 and the old 20/2.8.



And think how much smaller those lenses could be if designed to only cover a crop size image circle. Or designed to use the shorter flange distance of the M mount. A hypothetical EF-M 35mm f/2 or 50mm f/1.8 could be so much smaller/lighter then the EF versions.


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## rocketsurgeon (Sep 23, 2016)

I came here hoping that somebody would defend canon against accusations of not bothering to print brochures by stating that the age of print is over and that canikon don't need to print marketing materials and I was not disappointed!


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## leGreve (Sep 23, 2016)

How come you made no mention of the Panasonic GH5 which is almost everything the Canon 5DIV isn't...

Imo, Canon has finally dropped the ball on the 5D series and I am currently selling all my Canon lenses and 5D3.
Everyone else is catching up to them and doing what they should have been.

This is what happens when you try to market yourself with 1000 different cameras around the same pricetags and with minimal differences. Stupid and f'ing bad marketing.


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## AvTvM (Sep 23, 2016)

Luds34 said:


> ...
> First off, I think most people consider f/2 to be fast primes. Have you looked at "those" f/2 primes from Fuji XF? They are tiny! 43mm filter size for the 35mm? That is a small lens. FYI, it only weighs 170g.
> 
> 2nd, the f/1.4 lenses are not that big, certainly no where near top full frame glass (L or Art).
> ...



for anything wider than 22mm i just use the fabulous EF-M 11-22 which is a small, collapsible design D 61x L 58mm and 220 grams = smaller and lighter than most Fuji primes and universally covers entire UWA focal range in one small, affordable and optically great lens. 

For UWA lenses I don't think many users really need fast glass. Exceptions being nightscape with stars and astro stuff - which i consider a very tiny niche of the market. 

The only Fuji prime that would fit in nicely into Canon EF-M lineup is the Fuji XF 35mm/2.0 (not the 1.4) because it is really small, optically on par with 22/2.0 (but not better!) and affordable. 



Luds34 said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > PS: Pending reviews and results of a personal hands-on, I am very inclined to buy an EOS M5 with 18-150.
> ...



I am interested in EF-M 18-150 to replace my EF-M 55-200 that I rarely carry along in addition to 18-55 or 11-22. Especially on my hiking/mountaineering/skiing/back country adventures I would prefer a 1-lens set up 18-150 or maybe 2-lens in combination with 22/2 or 11-22, if I also want to have wide-angle or faster glass along. 

Both lenses, EF-M 18-150 and 55-200 are physically same size and are by no means big fat "clunkers", but very compact for an APS-C zoom! D 61 x L 86.5, 300g. Of course the compromise on both is very slow f/6.3 on the long end, but i am willing to live with that, if IQ is generally good. 

For city trips I'll take 11-22 plus 18-150 plus 22/2 as a very compact, light and yet capable lens setup.

For small stage concerts I'd love to get a moderately fast tele prime like an EF-M 85/2.4. A f/6.3 zoom will require ISO 25600 and has no potential for subject isolation. An EF-M 85/1.4 or an EF 70-200/2.8 II via adapter would offer more shallow DOF, but they cost an arm and a leg and i am not willing to lug such large gear around and it also would often look too conspicuos. I would be declined access with large cameras/large lenses in many venues.


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## Woody (Sep 23, 2016)

leGreve said:


> ...the Panasonic GH5 which is almost everything the Canon 5DIV isn't...



a) For videographers.

b) GH5... preproduction..


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## douglaurent (Sep 23, 2016)

unfocused said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.
> ...



Really? To me it seems there are more people than ever at Photokina, and Canon and Nikon have more competition than ever.


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## douglaurent (Sep 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.
> ...



Ok good, so let's forbid doing any printing on this planet - because as we all know, nobody ever does read or store anything that's printed. Anyone who did ask for a brochure at Photokina stands probably threw it away after a few seconds, without being interested in the products the companies want to sell.

And even better, let's forbid making photos or videos of anything that exists already as well. Who needs it? The world will be a happier place with more limitations and less inidivualism.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 23, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...


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## douglaurent (Sep 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



It's always good to have some graphic at hand when you're running out of facts.

It is stupid not to print any brochures, when there's a clear demand for it. This is why 95% of all other photokina companies still print. It is also stupid to say "I don't need it and others don't need it as well, so you and others don't deserve it".

Fun fact, one fourth of the Canon stand was all about prints and printing.

The main point wasn't about printed brochures anyway - the issue just shows the attitude of Canon and Nikon towards customers.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 23, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> It's always good to have some graphic at hand when you're running out of facts.
> 
> It is stupid not to print any brochures, when there's a clear demand for it. This is why 95% of all other photokina companies still print. It is also stupid to say "I don't need it and others don't need it as well, so you and others don't deserve it".



As opposed to complaining about it here, which is...smart?






By the way, the only _fact_ that you presented was that Canon and Nikon are not handing out printed brochures at Photokina. Everything beyond that is your own interpretation of that one fact. Now, if you went up to the Canon booth and asked for a brochure, and they told you, "Bugger off you idiot, stop consuming oxygen that people we value actually need," then that would be another fact, and one that might actually support your interpretation.


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## AvTvM (Sep 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> ... Now, if you went up to the Canon booth and asked for a brochure, and they told you, "Bugger off you idiot, stop consuming oxygen that people we value actually need," then that would be ...



... Mr. Neuro helping out on the Canon stand. ;D ;D ;D


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 23, 2016)

After walking the halls for three days what was the best of Photokina? Well if people numbers are anything to go by the Fuji medium format system stole the show, in fact Fuji stand was well laid out and buzzing. 
Sigma stand was also busy stars being the cinematography lenses and the 85mm f1.4, Olympus had a holographic display of the yet to be shown OM-D E-M1 MKII and a new Pen PL-8. Nikon had the already released D5 & D500 plus the D3400 and the Keymission action cams (are Nikon losing the plot?) but the setting was dull and un-imaginative. Panasonic laboured on 4K (and 8K) and had the pre-requisite models on a swing over lit. 
Canon big thing was the 5D MKIV and the M5, the M5 is a much better offering than the previous M series and feels solid in the hands and had tons of interest. the 5D MKIV is well reported on these pages and I had one with me (along with a G7 X). I'm surprised no one has brought up the EF 24-105mm f4L IS USM MKII, I shot a few frames with the lens at the Expert Bar (over-crowded and poorly laid out) which housed lens, the C700, 1D X MKII and the other Canon cameras, the EF 24-105 f4L IS USM MKII will sell, sell, sell. 
Canon had half a hall with a dome showing stills & video and a lot of wasted space why they crammed everything into the Expert Bar is beyond me. Printer had minimal floor space, they had the 8K camera and the 120MP camera both showcasing whats to come. 
Overall however this was not Canon at their best and I left disappointed they under-played so much of what they can offer. 
Sony new a99 MKII was another camera that was the talk of the show and the stand (which was massive) was very busy. 
The other highlights were the drones (everywhere), action cams (GoPro stand was constantly blitzed with Hero 5 mania). 
Lastly for us Canon users Phottix have added to their Laso offering the Indra 500LC studio / location flash which is compatible with Canon radio flash system giving 500W/s TTL power, up to 1/8000s sync speed, 15 channels, 5 groups, at 100m range. The Laso is backwards compatible to older non-radio Canon flashes using a Laso receiver, I have this system and it works a treat.


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## candyman (Sep 23, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> ...........I'm surprised no one has brought up the EF 24-105mm f4L IS USM MKII, I shot a few frames with the lens at the Expert Bar (over-crowded and poorly laid out) which housed lens, the C700, 1D X MKII and the other Canon cameras, *the EF 24-105 f4L IS USM MKII will sell, sell, sell.*.............


Tell us more....and why will it sell, sell, sell....


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 23, 2016)

Lets not forget that photography is first and foremost about light. Phottix just won Photokina for me with this:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/News/News-Post.aspx?News=18979


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 23, 2016)

candyman said:


> jeffa4444 said:
> 
> 
> > ...........I'm surprised no one has brought up the EF 24-105mm f4L IS USM MKII, I shot a few frames with the lens at the Expert Bar (over-crowded and poorly laid out) which housed lens, the C700, 1D X MKII and the other Canon cameras, *the EF 24-105 f4L IS USM MKII will sell, sell, sell.*.............
> ...


The original lens was never poorly made but the new one is just like the EF 16-35mm f4L IS USM it feels much better mechanically and the bumped 4 stops stabilisation is most welcome. From what Ive seen so far the corner sharpness is much improved and the lateral CAs vastly improved I'm definitely on the waiting list for one. Im not a huge fan of the EF 24-70mm f4L IS USM which is weak at 50mm and the new EF 24-105mm f4L IS USM MKII will become my walk-around lens like its predecessor was until I bought the EF 24-70mm f4L IS USM with my 5DS. Canon knew the older lens needed improvement and from the shots I have albeit within the confines of Photokina they have responded.


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## candyman (Sep 23, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > jeffa4444 said:
> ...


Thanks, that's good to hear. I have ordered the 24-105 II on August 26th and I look forward to pick it up and use it in the field myself. It will be my walk-around lens as well.


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## Trevster (Sep 23, 2016)

> I will never use an 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3 IS STM, no matter how great it is.



I agree, I saw this lens and was like...awww, what a missed opportunity. An f/2.8 is a must for my needs. 

*The Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L III *made me drool. I'll be searching out the reviews and shots in the field for this glass.

-T


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## douglaurent (Sep 23, 2016)

By the way, the only _fact_ that you presented was that Canon and Nikon are not handing out printed brochures at Photokina. Everything beyond that is your own interpretation of that one fact. Now, if you went up to the Canon booth and asked for a brochure, and they told you, "Bugger off you idiot, stop consuming oxygen that people we value actually need," then that would be another fact, and one that might actually support your interpretation.
[/quote]

Aside from the many other facts I delivered - like Canon's big presentation of printers and printed books, which took more space than the camera hands on areas and which is a joke when they deny the future of printing - I can give you more: several types of brochures they used to do don't even seem to exist anymore as downloads, like overall camera and lens lineups. The only thing you have is their websites which will change. So in 5 years it will be impossible to read what the product lineup of today was in detail.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 23, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> ...Canon's big presentation of printers and printed books, which took more space than the camera hands on areas and which is a joke when they deny the future of printing



So you believe that choosing not to distribute paper brochures suggests that Canon is 'denying the future of printing'? Sounds like you need to get your facts straight, given that Canon's Office division is >50% larger than their Imaging division, and Canon has highlighted part of their future corporate starategy as, "_Shifting from a document printing domain to a broader business that includes commercial printing._" But hey, you go right on interepreting your few facts through the lenses of your crap-colored glasses.




douglaurent said:


> I can give you more: several types of brochures they used to do don't even seem to exist anymore as downloads, like overall camera and lens lineups. The only thing you have is their websites which will change. So in 5 years it will be impossible to read what the product lineup of today was in detail.



While that sort of historical documentation may be of mild interest in the acedemic sense, it has little practical utility. Particularly since that sort of information is not globally relevant (e.g. certain lenses are discontinued by some geographic units before others). Besides, it's a big internet, and even though websites change, there's this other thing on the internet called the Wayback Machine. So if you'd like to see the EF Lens Lineup from June, 1997 with 'NEW' lenses like the 300/4L IS highlighted, you can.


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## douglaurent (Sep 23, 2016)

Funny how simple cutting of costs through the stop of printing brochures is celebrated as a genius future move by Canon, while the same company does still use 1980 Casio top displays in their flagship cameras. 

We see a combination of arrogant company and logic consumers opinions that go under the louder crazy Trump-style consumer voices, which leads to the current state of slow innovation, increase in prices and decrease in service.

If Canon is not interested in consumers of a trade show, then they should stay at home like Apple or Samsung. If Canon thinks their flagship cameras are not wanted as video cameras, then they should be consequent and remove the video function completely, instead of doing everything just 50%. This is not my personal opinion, I rent out stuff and all 50+ people I know think the same.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 24, 2016)

Wow, 50 people. Who are your customers, but not necessarily Canon's. I wonder how many _actual_ customers Canon solicits for opinions? I'm guessing more than 50. :

BTW, your 'genius future move' comment, facetious though it is, is still just your personal opinion of that one fact. Maybe it was a cost-saving measure. Maybe it was environmental consciousness. Maybe their commercial printer failed to have the order ready in time, perhaps because that commercial printer's equipment failed. Maybe that equipment was even made by Canon. But you go right ahead and ascribe whatever motivation you want, Jon Snow. :


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## Don Haines (Sep 24, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Funny how simple cutting of costs through the stop of printing brochures is celebrated as a genius future move by Canon



I work in the electronics industry... the amount of paper used in brochures, handouts, and catalogs has plummeted over the last 10 years. This is neither new or innovative, it is business as usual.


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## Hector1970 (Sep 24, 2016)

I think Fuji have made a great move with medium format.
They are doing a great job at APS-C but are too late for full frame.
Medium Formatt will be the future as consumers want ever greater quality.
The more medium format sensors made the cheaper they will become.
They need to get new lens for the system or at least promise them.
The cost of the camera is high but it will reduce over time to sit a few grand above flagship Canon / Nikin.
There are a lot of people in the world who can afford it. 
Size won't be much larger than a Canon / Nikon full frame.


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## douglaurent (Sep 24, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Funny how simple cutting of costs through the stop of printing brochures is celebrated as a genius future move by Canon
> ...



So it is business as usual to stop making system overviews even as pdf, and stop making product brochures in more than english language even as pdf? This means 95% of the photo industry are still behind because they hand out printed brochures?

Sony gave out a brilliant 92-page system catalogue at Photokina, with lots of details you will never find if you go on a website. This is professional and complete service and serves all customers. Give some catalogue like this by Canon to any owner or potential buyer of a 5D4, and most will love and keep it, as it's a completely different feeling and insight as a website - and it will generate more sales of accessoires. Each printed copy will be worth it.


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## d (Sep 24, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Sony gave out a brilliant 92-page system catalogue at Photokina, with lots of details you will never find if you go on a website. This is professional and complete service and serves all customers. Give some catalogue like this by Canon to any owner or potential buyer of a 5D4, and *most will love* and keep it, as it's a completely different feeling and insight as a website - and it will generate more sales of accessoires. Each printed copy will be worth it.





Think you might be taking your printed materials a little too seriously there, Doug.


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## Don Haines (Sep 24, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...


About 20 years ago, electronics companies started sending out CDs and DVDs of their product lines and catalogs.... about 10 years ago they stopped sending the CDs and DVDs because there was more and better information available through the websites.... I used to have a library of HUNDREDS of parts catalogs, now I have none, yet have access to more information and faster.

Perhaps Sony did go overboard and create a promotional book for their system at Photokina, but that is not the industry trend. If the marketing people at Canon and Nikon were able to prove that the expense of designing, printing, and distributing equivalent materials would generate enough additional sales to more than offset the costs, then it is a sure bet that they would be printing them.

Most people (and particularly the younger ones) go online for their information.......


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## Aglet (Sep 24, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Where you can't find data for most electronic devices made before 1990 or even later.
i still have to retain a large library of old databooks around to assist in servicing machines that are a few decades old. Remember when everything was thru-hole?..


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## Aglet (Sep 24, 2016)

d said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Sony gave out a brilliant 92-page system catalogue at Photokina, with lots of details you will never find if you go on a website. This is professional and complete service and serves all customers. Give some catalogue like this by Canon to any owner or potential buyer of a 5D4, and *most will love* and keep it, as it's a completely different feeling and insight as a website - and it will generate more sales of accessoires. Each printed copy will be worth it.
> ...



I think Doug's got a reasonable point ..
_and he's not arguing it like he just dined on Imodium and crack._

printed brochures and catalogs have a marketing value with a different (& lasting?) impact.
And they're more acceptable to read while you're in the bathroom. ;D

not everyone wants to browse info on a friggin smartphone but many co's are adjusting their information presentations to little else.
is Canon now marketing just to those kids?


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## Don Haines (Sep 24, 2016)

Aglet said:


> d said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...


Personally, I think the balance is somewhere in the middle. I think we have gone too far..... I like a printed manual for my camera!


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## Old Sarge (Sep 24, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > d said:
> ...


Amen and Amen! But being a belt and suspenders man, I like having a pdf also.


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## douglaurent (Sep 24, 2016)

I have spent more than 10.000 bucks for the 5D4 and 1DX2 - not to speak of 100+x other Canon products I have bought - and think it would have been nice if they have invested 2 dollars to print brochures. But again missing prints are just a small piece of the Canon problem puzzle.

At each past Photokina you could have seen that Sony tried hard to keep up with Canon and Nikon, by simply releasing the best they can and adding features the others didn't have. Now for the first time this strategy had the result Sony is at Photokina and on par or better on most levels, and the only left Canon advantages are 4K 60fps in a DSLR and better video autofocus, plus a few lenses. The overall current broad impression is:

- Sony can achieve nearly everything on the highest possible standards and delivers what they have.
- Canon can achieve nearly everything on the highest possible standards and delivers only parts of that yet for strategic reasons.
- Nikon can only achieve some things on the highest possible standards, does not know how to make things better yet, and still acts as if Canon is their only competitor.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 24, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> I have spent more than 10.000 bucks for the 5D4 and 1DX2 - not to speak of 100+x other Canon products I have bought - and think it would have been nice if they have invested 2 dollars to print brochures. But again missing prints are just a small piece of the Canon problem puzzle.



If you mean, the problem you have with Canon, fine. But other than your opinion (oh, and that of a couple of people you know), where is the evidence of this 'problem puzzle' for the ILC market leader that continues to gain market share?

But hey, keep on bitching here on CR about how Canon hurt your feelings and deprived you of a brochure. I'm sure it'll help. 

Here's an idea – since Sony gave you a brochure and Canon didn't, why don't you toss all your Canon gear in the rubbish bin and buy all Sony replacements. That'll show 'em how bad they screwed up by not printing a brochure for you!


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## d (Sep 24, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Sony gave out a brilliant 92-page system catalogue at Photokina, with lots of details you will never find if you go on a website. This is professional and complete service and serves all customers. Give some catalogue like this by Canon to any owner or potential buyer of a 5D4, and most will love and keep it, as it's a completely different feeling and insight as a website - and it will generate more sales of accessoires. Each printed copy will be worth it.





douglaurent said:


> I have spent more than 10.000 bucks for the 5D4 and 1DX2 - not to speak of 100+x other Canon products I have bought...



Seems you yourself are evidence Canon don't need catalogues and brochures to make sales!


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## Don Haines (Sep 24, 2016)

Old Sarge said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...


yes!
One of the first things I did when I got my 7D2 was to print the AF manual so I could have a copy in the field..... But I also use the PDF on the computer.....

It does not have to be an "all or nothing" proposition....


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## scyrene (Sep 24, 2016)

brad-man said:


> Canon certainly has the expertise to produce small and sharp M primes between f/1.8 and 2.4.
> 
> ...
> 
> Unfortunately, their bean counting wizards are probably advising against it, so we'll have to wait and see.



Translation: it may well not be worth their while - they could do it, but might well not sell enough to bother. Call it bean counting if you like, but it's just business.

(Hopefully they will decide it is worthwhile, or if not, a third party manufacturer will).


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## scyrene (Sep 24, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> At the current speed of innovation through Canon it's unlike they will sell the first affordable 8K camera before the year 2020. But you can always feel: if Canon wants to achieve something, they can do it and have the technology. It's just sad they are so slow in releasing these features, and even slower in offering great features in an affordable way.



Most people don't have 4K tvs1 or monitors and there's very little 4K content out there2; but OMG not providing *affordable* 8K before 2020 (which is only just over 3 years away) means they're slow! Um...



1 https://www.statista.com/statistics/422402/4k-ultra-hd-tv-shipments-worldwide/ - growth in 4K sales has been substantial, but the projected share is still under 50% for 2016; given most people aren't buying a new tv every year, even at that rate, how long before most people own one?
2 http://www.techradar.com/news/television/ultra-hd-everything-you-need-to-know-about-4k-tv-1048954 "There's actually not much 4K broadcast content to be had right now".


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## douglaurent (Sep 24, 2016)

scyrene said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > At the current speed of innovation through Canon it's unlike they will sell the first affordable 8K camera before the year 2020. But you can always feel: if Canon wants to achieve something, they can do it and have the technology. It's just sad they are so slow in releasing these features, and even slower in offering great features in an affordable way.
> ...



When you think Full HD is enough, why do you shoot with cameras that have more than 2 megapixels? 8K video is just in between the 5D4 and 5DsR photos, so nothing special for all who need to crop, oversample etc etc. Photographers do always forget that filmmakers like to have the same options.

Canon is good if they release 8K in 2020, when nobody else does it by then. But unfortunately in 2020, probably 5 other companies do already have 8K cameras before Canon - who did display in 2016 they could do it. That's the lame thing about it.


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## Don Haines (Sep 24, 2016)

scyrene said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > At the current speed of innovation through Canon it's unlike they will sell the first affordable 8K camera before the year 2020. But you can always feel: if Canon wants to achieve something, they can do it and have the technology. It's just sad they are so slow in releasing these features, and even slower in offering great features in an affordable way.
> ...


I would side with Doug here..... sort of...... I think they have the ability to do it now, except for two big problems, heat and battery life. As anyone who wore the battery belt with an ENG camera knows, battery problems can be solved with an external battery.... but heat, there's another problem! How do you dissipate the heat, yet still maintain some degree of sealing? The overheating issue is what held up Canon 4K in DSLRs and will probably do the same for 8K.

4K has now become an expected feature in new cameras. Yes, it is true that most people do not have 4K displays yet (myself included), but we are not looking at a sudden shift from 2K to 4K. Gradually devices will wear out or be upgraded to new devices, and the new ones will most likely have 4K capability. Right now 2K is standard and 4K is leading edge, but eventually 4K will have become standard and 8K will be leading edge.

4K has been out for about 5 years now in consumer devices. My bet is that within 2 years we will be seeing 8K in 
consumer devices... it's already planned for phones! Will it be in the 1DX3 and 5D5? who knows..... but it will come!


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## douglaurent (Sep 24, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > I have spent more than 10.000 bucks for the 5D4 and 1DX2 - not to speak of 100+x other Canon products I have bought - and think it would have been nice if they have invested 2 dollars to print brochures. But again missing prints are just a small piece of the Canon problem puzzle.
> ...



Canon sells significantly less cameras. They have the problem, not me, because I can work with systems of many brands I own. I just would prefer to work with one brand - like anybody else who doesnt want to carry 3 cameras and 2x as many lenses for something that could have been easier.


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## douglaurent (Sep 24, 2016)

d said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > Sony gave out a brilliant 92-page system catalogue at Photokina, with lots of details you will never find if you go on a website. This is professional and complete service and serves all customers. Give some catalogue like this by Canon to any owner or potential buyer of a 5D4, and most will love and keep it, as it's a completely different feeling and insight as a website - and it will generate more sales of accessoires. Each printed copy will be worth it.
> ...



I am the best evidence why Canon needs to improve and keep up on many levels, as instead of 2x 1DXII and 3x 5D4 I have just bought ONE of each. In the last years (I do rent out as well) I also bought 60+x Sony E-Mount, Micro Four Thirds etc products I wouldn't have bought if Canon would have released similar products.


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## douglaurent (Sep 24, 2016)

Here's an idea – since Sony gave you a brochure and Canon didn't, why don't you toss all your Canon gear in the rubbish bin and buy all Sony replacements. That'll show 'em how bad they screwed up by not printing a brochure for you!
[/quote]

If you would have read my posts, you would know that missing brochures are just one example of Canon's limitation game. You can also replace it with button assignment: in a Sony camera you can choose nearly any function for nearly any button. In a Canon camera you can choose a few random functions on some random buttons. If it wasn't 2016 and wouldn't have seen what other companies do and what's possible, I wouldn't complain.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 24, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Canon sells significantly less cameras. They have the problem, not me...



True, in the absolute sense the entire ILC market is declining, due to factors outside of Canon's control. Printing brochures or putting 4K in more cameras is not going to help that. But, based on factors _within_ their control – what features they include in their cameras, how they market them, etc. – compared to their competition Canon remains the ILC market leader is gaining market share. So while the industry as a whole has a problem (everyone is selling less cameras), Canon seems to be addressing it well (they're selling more cameras than anyone else). Even to you, apparently...so your continued purchasing of their products renders your ongoing complaints meaningless.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 24, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> I am the best evidence why Canon needs to improve and keep up on many levels, as instead of 2x 1DXII and 3x 5D4 I have just bought ONE of each.



No, you're merely an anecdote.


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## arthurbikemad (Sep 24, 2016)

Makes me laugh people who go on about printed manuals in the digital age, for a start Canon are wise not printing a manual, after all the first time the firmware is updated the manual is toilet paper!


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## gsealy (Sep 24, 2016)

The 2 biggest announcements for me are the Fuji medium format GHX and the Panasonic GH5. They will be available in 2017. I'm looking forward to the reviews.


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## gsealy (Sep 24, 2016)

RickSpringfield said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <p><strong>Fujifilm GFX 50S</strong></p>
> ...



I have a Fuji X100T and it is a really great camera. People love the X-T2. This medium format GFX deserves attention.


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## Maximilian59 (Sep 24, 2016)

I was at photokina now for five days and can say: Canon has the largest area in the mid of there exhibition where nothing is shown. Really nothing but a repeating video on the wall. I estimate it is about 250 squaremeters with a black floor. Of course they have all their gear there and new bodies. But if you go to an exhibition and all you can get from a leading company is nothing to take with home, that is a pitty. Not much really new. A lot of people go there to collect bags and papers. I do expect to get printed information on an exhibition. 
Canon also makes printers. But no real specialists there. Maybe one. Hey we are not only taking pictures for our harddrives! Canon makes beamers: There were no beamers from Canon. Seems they don't want us to look at our pictures.
I am a canon shooter for 40 years and no canon basher.


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## scyrene (Sep 25, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



Well... does not having the battery life or heat dissipation sorted yet not mean they *can't* do it? (Within the constraints of a reasonable budget/form factor of DSLRs).

And aren't you kind of agreeing with me - I never said 8K wasn't going to happen (I don't think it's a big deal, and we are surely approaching the limits of visual acuity at normal distances) but queried the idea that 2020 is too late to get into it. Nikon also only put 4K into their flagship DSLRs this year. Three years for another resolution generation?


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## scyrene (Sep 25, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



I don't doubt that cropping and oversampling are useful, relevant, and important to at least some. But you stated that "affordable" 8K by 2020 would be late (too late?). I dispute that. As I say above, Nikon and Canon have only just made 4K mainstream in their top end DSLR bodies (and we're discussing DSLRs here right? The cinema line moves to a different beat). I think you're being premature. So criticising Canon (or Nikon for that matter) for not meeting your arbitrary and unrealistic deadline is a bit silly.


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## Don Haines (Sep 25, 2016)

scyrene said:


> Well... does not having the battery life or heat dissipation sorted yet not mean they *can't* do it? (Within the constraints of a reasonable budget/form factor of DSLRs).
> 
> And aren't you kind of agreeing with me - I never said 8K wasn't going to happen (I don't think it's a big deal, and we are surely approaching the limits of visual acuity at normal distances) but queried the idea that 2020 is too late to get into it. Nikon also only put 4K into their flagship DSLRs this year. Three years for another resolution generation?



I am definitely agreeing.

The battery/heat issue is, in my opinion, the big hurdle to cross for 8K video. The sensors exist now to capture it, the hardware exists now to process it real-time, and with cFast (440MB/sec) and even SD-UHS2 cards at 250MB/sec write speeds the ability to store it real time exists now. Give them a bit of time to shrink the fabrication of the video processor and they will get a boost in processing power and a reduction in power consumption, and then we should see it in Canon video cameras and then into DSLRs....


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## douglaurent (Sep 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> douglaurent said:
> 
> 
> > I am the best evidence why Canon needs to improve and keep up on many levels, as instead of 2x 1DXII and 3x 5D4 I have just bought ONE of each.
> ...



...of thousands you don't see because you don't care.


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## douglaurent (Sep 25, 2016)

Maximilian59 said:


> I was at photokina now for five days and can say: Canon has the largest area in the mid of there exhibition where nothing is shown. Really nothing but a repeating video on the wall. I estimate it is about 250 squaremeters with a black floor. Of course they have all their gear there and new bodies. But if you go to an exhibition and all you can get from a leading company is nothing to take with home, that is a pitty. Not much really new. A lot of people go there to collect bags and papers. I do expect to get printed information on an exhibition.
> Canon also makes printers. But no real specialists there. Maybe one. Hey we are not only taking pictures for our harddrives! Canon makes beamers: There were no beamers from Canon. Seems they don't want us to look at our pictures.
> I am a canon shooter for 40 years and no canon basher.



The stand was more like 50x50 square meters = 2500, not just 250 squaremeters. Didn't see an XC15 or C700, which is strange because now Photokina is clearly also a video tradeshow - which Canon supports by showing two future 8K cameras and lenses people could even test themselves. Not much logic behind the whole Canon presentation in Cologne.


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## douglaurent (Sep 25, 2016)

Well... does not having the battery life or heat dissipation sorted yet not mean they *can't* do it? (Within the constraints of a reasonable budget/form factor of DSLRs).

And aren't you kind of agreeing with me - I never said 8K wasn't going to happen (I don't think it's a big deal, and we are surely approaching the limits of visual acuity at normal distances) but queried the idea that 2020 is too late to get into it. Nikon also only put 4K into their flagship DSLRs this year. Three years for another resolution generation?
[/quote]

Nikon is way worse, they don't seem to plan to be more than #3 in the future - or simply can't do it. Problem with the latest Canon releases is: when the 5D4 and 1DX2 last until 2020, in which product Canon wants to present real fullframe 4K? In a 6D2, so that the 5D4 and 1DX2 owners are the losers, or not before 2020, 6 years after Sony? Especially when a company knows their product should be a standard for the next 4 years, they should be more careful and better over-deliver in terms of specs.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 25, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > douglaurent said:
> ...



Canon has sold well over two _million_ ILCs so far this year alone. Even a few thousand is an anecdote. BTW, where's your evidence of 'thousands' of people who share your viewpoint? Yeah, that's what I thought. You see, Canon gathers _data_ from their customers...and anecdotes ≠ data.

With each post, you most effectively demonstrate your irrelevance. Well done.


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## fingerstein (Sep 25, 2016)

No SONY A99 II? 
5D Mark IV? With that incredible mjpeg codec?


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## Mikehit (Sep 25, 2016)

douglaurent said:


> Well... does not having the battery life or heat dissipation sorted yet not mean they *can't* do it? (Within the constraints of a reasonable budget/form factor of DSLRs).
> 
> And aren't you kind of agreeing with me - I never said 8K wasn't going to happen (I don't think it's a big deal, and we are surely approaching the limits of visual acuity at normal distances) but queried the idea that 2020 is too late to get into it. Nikon also only put 4K into their flagship DSLRs this year. Three years for another resolution generation?
> 
> ...



I recall reading one interview with a Canon rep saying that 4K is not a priority because there are so few people with 4K replay capability. And given that 4K is barely on the consumer market the chance of 8K appearing any time soon to any great extent is remote (and in that I mean even 3-4 years). Are you expecting 4K to really take hold in 2019 and saying that it will be supplanted in 2020?

With HiFi as my other passion, I have seen all the hi-res formats come and go but Joe public has gone straight from CD (perfect sound forever, remember?) by-passed SACD etc and decided mpegs are good enough. There is even strong evidence that all the hi-res digital files are barely better than good ol' CD despite mega-sampling rates. And when it came to hardware (CD, SACD etc) the consumer go pissed off spending thousands on their gear only to find a better format coming out a year later. The same thing is starting to happen with cameras, and the hifi story will repeat itself - people will not buy a generation because they are waiting to see the next development.

I genuinely believe that 4K/8K etc are the new megapixel race - great for techno one-upmanship but in some ways is a solution looking for a problem. OK, as with hifi I know there are some people out there who will make use of them but how many people genuinely have the replay media to tell the difference? And will companies think it is worth spending however much it costs to incorporate this stuff into their gear to please the few people who really recognise its worth?


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 25, 2016)

Maximilian59 said:


> I was at photokina now for five days and can say: Canon has the largest area in the mid of there exhibition where nothing is shown. Really nothing but a repeating video on the wall. I estimate it is about 250 squaremeters with a black floor. Of course they have all their gear there and new bodies. But if you go to an exhibition and all you can get from a leading company is nothing to take with home, that is a pitty. Not much really new. A lot of people go there to collect bags and papers. I do expect to get printed information on an exhibition.
> Canon also makes printers. But no real specialists there. Maybe one. Hey we are not only taking pictures for our harddrives! Canon makes beamers: There were no beamers from Canon. Seems they don't want us to look at our pictures.
> I am a canon shooter for 40 years and no canon basher.


Your bang on the money. Ive been a Canon user since they brought out the FT. The stand at Photokina was frankly forgettable and the space wasted. Aside from the 5D IV and the M5 you had to go to the bar to see any other camera including the flagship 1D X MKII and the new lenses, it was packed and many people I noticed simply turned away because it was not big enough. Both Fuji and Sony by contrast had better thought out stands that displayed and encouraged the use of their cameras & lenses. 
Die-hard Canon users could not see the point of the dome (including Canon explorers) and I know two Canon explorers asked to present at Photokina only a few days before the show when they had already made other plans. 
Worse still two camera chains in the UK said forward orders for the 5D MKIV were much lower than previous Canon products because of the price and whilst other manufacturers have raised their prices they were no where near as much as Canon. 
Based on the cost of the 5D MKIV you can see the 6D MKII coming in at the price of the 5D MKIII which will make a very expensive FF entry point. Forget brochures, price is king and if you price too high people go elsewhere.


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## scyrene (Sep 25, 2016)

jeffa4444 said:


> Worse still two camera chains in the UK said forward orders for the 5D MKIV were much lower than previous Canon products because of the price and whilst other manufacturers have raised their prices they were no where near as much as Canon.
> Based on the cost of the 5D MKIV you can see the 6D MKII coming in at the price of the 5D MKIII which will make a very expensive FF entry point. Forget brochures, price is king and if you price too high people go elsewhere.



I agree price is one of the most important factors deciding what/whether people will buy. How much is down to the recent currency devaluing though? Everything is going to be more expensive in the UK for the foreseeable future.


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 25, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > I think the sub $10,000 medium format segment is potentially bigger than some people thing and that they’re going to sell a lot of cameras.
> ...


The medium format market is still small compared to DSLRs which at Photokina were estimated to have 49% of the market. However medium format is indeed growing and the new offerings from Fuji, Phase One & Hasselblad will only fuel that growth based on recent GfK data. Leica based their numbers on the market at that time and did not forsee the re-emergence of interest in medium format which owes its new found interest mainly to the Sony sourced sensors. Leica S system whilst beautifully made has not been adopted that well by pros who still stick to Hasselblad & Phase One, our systems have pretty low utilisation whilst we continue to invest in Hasselblad & Phase One.


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## JoFT (Sep 27, 2016)

jebrady03 said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG Art
> ...


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## JoFT (Sep 27, 2016)

Craig: you started the thread: Yes it was a pity not to meet you at Photokina.


I did a fairly good summary here: http://bit.ly/2cRFsF3


In terms of Canon: the M5 was just great. This is a very good answer and for me this camera seems to be much better than the Sony a6xxx ones. But still not on the level of the panasonics. But it is a different ecosystem. Let´s hope for many more and unique lenses to support this format!


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