# The Canon EOS R5 C has been rejected for Netflix Certification



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

> Netflix has rejected the Canon EOS R5C for production certification, and we’re told that Canon doesn’t have any intention to address the issue like Sony did with the FX3.
> Neither Netflix or Canon has spoken directly on why the camera was denied, but the only thing we and others can think of is that the camera lacks Canon Log-2. There may be some other image quality reason that we don’t know about. The Canon EOS R5C seems to have every other feature required by Netflix for certification.
> The Canon EOS R5 C can still be used for productions, but footage from the camera cannot make up more than 10% of the total runtime of the production.
> We’d love to hear more on this topic.



Continue reading...


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## aeronium (Sep 13, 2022)

What's the source? Or is this a rumor?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

aeronium said:


> What's the source? Or is this a rumor?


A couple of DPs have let us know in the last week or so.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 13, 2022)

Considering that Netflix usually takes 30-45 days to evaluate each camera depending on demand, I'd say Canon knew about the camera not being certified for at least the past two months. Back in April, during NAB, a lot of people asked about the certification and they've said it was under "under going evaluation".

Also, considering that both the VENICE 2 and the Alexa 35 were launched after the R5C and they are already certified, I'm pretty sure Canon just decided to not notify anyone about this - especially because being certified for Netflix original content is a big deal nowadays. They also didn't spoke up about the C200 either.


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## SnowMiku (Sep 13, 2022)

I'm curious why would a certain camera even need to be certified to film a Netflix show?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

SnowMiku said:


> I'm curious why would a certain camera even need to be certified to film a Netflix show?


It's probably about consistency and future proofing


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 13, 2022)

SnowMiku said:


> I'm curious why would a certain camera even need to be certified to film a Netflix show?


It's just a matter of quality control. Big broadcasters have been doing this for years now, in order to maximize their workflows and minimize quality gaps between productions.

As far as I know, they consider image quality (the technical standard, evaluating the signal to noise ratio, dynamic range, black levels, and the list goes on), codec (options, bitrate, color subsampling, bit depth) and also inout and output terminals. Cameras such as the C200 and Pocket 4K Cinema Camera were rejected due to the lack of timecode inputs, per example. And since the R5C does have a timecode inout and plenty of codecs, even a RAW format, my guess it that it was something regarding the image quality of the camera - and they could be spot on on the lack of Canon Log 2, since it's the required gamma for most of the certified Canon cameras on the Netflix PTA website.


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## dolina (Sep 13, 2022)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> It's probably about consistency and future proofing


I actually appreciate the strict standards Netflix & other streamers demand.

Filipino-made productions improved in image quality. Just wish Netflix et al also controlled quality of artificial light as well so that production value improves further.


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## entoman (Sep 13, 2022)

Log 2 seems an odd omission, and even odder if Canon says it doesn't intend to address that issue.


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## AustrianGeek (Sep 13, 2022)

Well - Maybe its the non full size and quite "adapter cable picky" (as far as I read) DIN 1.0/2.3 timecode port on the R5c. Or - And thats maybe even more the point - The MICRO HDMI port on a professional camera. Its just a shame that they did not include at least a Mini HDMI Port (which has to withstand the same physical stress as a full size HDMI port has to regarding the HDMI specs). Still asking myself why they did that. Its making no sense ...

Both points are not "software fixable". So no chance for Canon to solve that.


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## padam (Sep 13, 2022)

Can't wait for the Canon R5C NF edition for 6000$


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## robotfist (Sep 13, 2022)

The Netflix camera certification has become a major industry standard and a guide by which many Hollywood producers operate. Even if you have no intention to shoot something for Netflix, if you work in the entertainment business in LA, having a Netflix-approved system increases the value and usability of your camera. How Canon managed to flunk the 4K Netflix standard with a brand new, 8K sensor that shoots raw, is beyond me. I'm guessing it's because of their stubborn refusal to put Clog2 in the R5C, which effectively reduces the camera's dynamic range, making it less acceptable for HDR content. That's the only thing I can think of. The prevention of Clog 2 in the R5C is the Canon cripple hammer in full force. I own both a C300 III and an R5C, and having to explain to post facilities that they need to use two different LUTs with the footage I'm handing them is really annoying. I wish they'd just give us CLog 2 on the R5C and stop being so stingy. But alas, it's Canon. And this sort of decision is on brand for them. I really hope the Netflix decision gives them a bit of a wake-up call, but I doubt it.


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## Maximilian (Sep 13, 2022)

Just  to Netflix


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## cpreston (Sep 13, 2022)

The weird thing about the C-Log2 theory is that the RAW video is interpreted as C-Log2 footage. There is a possibility that the camera does not have the dynamic range specified by Canon for C-Log2, but I don't know why that would matter as far as netflix is concerned unless it really is just a dynamic range specification that is required for certification. Honestly, I can't imagine anybody wanting to use a Canon R5c for more than 10% of a production, though. The C500II is a much easier camera to use if somebody was set on using Canon camera. And you could still use the R5c as a crash cam or drone cam and have it match nearly perfectly.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 13, 2022)

cpreston said:


> Honestly, I can't imagine anybody wanting to use a Canon R5c for more than 10% of a production, though.


Get something like Hyperdrive or Drive to Survive and you'll see how the amount of crash cams can get over 10% real soon. That's one of the main reasons the Komodo is getting more and more popular for Netflix productions.


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## entoman (Sep 13, 2022)

Has anyone asked Canon *why* they omitted Log 2?

... and why they submitted the R5C for Netflix certification in the full knowledge that the lack of Log 2 would probably cause their application to be rejected?


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 13, 2022)

entoman said:


> Has anyone asked Canon *why* they omitted Log 2?
> 
> ... and why they submitted the R5C for Netflix certification in the full knowledge that the lack of Log 2 would probably cause their application to be rejected?


The lack of Canon Log 2 may not be the real trouble. The lack of Canon Log 2 on the R5 C can be.

The C200 is a perfect example: it lacked the Canon Log 2, but yet it was not certified due to the lack of TC I/ O.

The only odd thing about all of this is Canon's reaction for this, to not evaluate their options and just giving up entirely. Sony had their share of trouble with the FX3, but they solve all the complaints from Netflix and fixed in a firmware update, hence Netflix granting a certification.


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## Scenes (Sep 13, 2022)

It can’t be lack of CLOG 2 because the shooting specs for the C70 specify approved footage settings of CLOG 2 or CLOG 3. It wouldn’t have effected my decision to get an R5C either way but would be nice to think a firmware update could fix it.

Maybe it’s as simple as the R5C doesn’t have built in ND?

Netflix approved C70 settings:
3840 x 2160 YCC422 10 bit
XF-AVC (Long GOP is not an approved compression scheme)
Canon Log 2 : C.Gamut
Canon Log 3 : C.Gamut


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## adrian_bacon (Sep 13, 2022)

I think the whole Netflix certification thing is a load of baloney. Just do what the rest of the broadcast world does and publish minimum video specs for original productions. certifying specific cameras etc. doesn't do anything but make Netflix seem "extra". Besides, Netflix is in a heap of money trouble right now because they have real competition with other services, so why are they giving content producers reasons to pursue getting their content onto other services that don't put up such stupidity.

Just say original content to be distributed by Netflix must meet these minimum video specs, then list the specs. If content producers can produce video that conforms to those specs, great, if not, not great.


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## sirbarton (Sep 13, 2022)

Scenes said:


> It can’t be lack of CLOG 2 because the shooting specs for the C70 specify approved footage settings of CLOG 2 or CLOG 3. It wouldn’t have effected my decision to get an R5C either way but would be nice to think a firmware update could fix it.
> 
> Maybe it’s as simple as the R5C doesn’t have built in ND?
> 
> ...



Yeah it's odd. I work with Netflix and Amazon and have delivered series to both. Amazon is much more flexible and pragmatic about these things. While Netflix has always had great resources and communication about camera specs and compression/steaming codecs, some of the decisions like this on the R5C are head scratchers.

I have a C70 for personal work and I love it, but I was considering the R5C as a replacement for my C70 and DSLR. Will be curious to see if there is an answer on this soon.


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## adrian_bacon (Sep 13, 2022)

WhatDoesMStandsFor said:


> It's just a matter of quality control. Big broadcasters have been doing this for years now, in order to maximize their workflows and minimize quality gaps between productions.
> 
> As far as I know, they consider image quality (the technical standard, evaluating the signal to noise ratio, dynamic range, black levels, and the list goes on), codec (options, bitrate, color subsampling, bit depth) and also inout and output terminals. Cameras such as the C200 and Pocket 4K Cinema Camera were rejected due to the lack of timecode inputs, per example. And since the R5C does have a timecode inout and plenty of codecs, even a RAW format, my guess it that it was something regarding the image quality of the camera - and they could be spot on on the lack of Canon Log 2, since it's the required gamma for most of the certified Canon cameras on the Netflix PTA website.


Yes, but big broadcasters typically just list video specs any video they host has to conform to. They don't typically list cameras a production can or cannot use unless the broadcaster itself is the producer, and it's being edited in house by the broadcaster. If somebody makes a great show and a broadcaster wants to buy the rights, so they can broadcast or host it, they don't typically reject it because it wasn't shot on specific gear, no, they just go, "Hey, we need you to submit your content to us with these specs". To stipulate specific approved gear is to potentially dictate creative control. A DP or director or producer may be using a specific piece of gear for very specific technical or creative reasons, and to have Netflix (or any other broadcaster) come in and say "You can't shoot your show with that equipment because we don't approve of it" is ludicrous in my opinion, especially if the production is submitting finished video that they just have to distribute. No, they should just say finished video needs to conform to specs x, y, and z in order for us to host it. Again, if Netflix is the producer, that's a different story.


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## bergstrom (Sep 13, 2022)

Wasn't the R5C supposed to have bad autofocus. The slanted lens on YT did a review comparison of it.


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## Scenes (Sep 13, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> Wasn't the R5C supposed to have bad autofocus. The slanted lens on YT did a review comparison of it.


Depends how you come at it. It has the best autofocus of any Canon Cinema Camera but works very differently to how the regular R5/R6 does so can see how people might call it 'bad' if coming from a DSLR.

For the purposes of this discussion It has the best autofocus of the Netflix approved Canon cameras, put it that way.


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## rontele7 (Sep 14, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> I think the whole Netflix certification thing is a load of baloney.


100% agree. Broadcast TV has a minimum of 50mbps, which is very common and easy to achieve with any modern camera. 

News, sports, shows on cable, etc., are all around 50mbps.

The R5c can shoot up to 2600mbps, which is insane. 

Rejecting this camera seems a result of politics or ignorance, as the R5c is more than capable of producing world class content.


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## rontele7 (Sep 14, 2022)

Tim Laman, one of National Geographic's top photographers, has been shooting video on an R5C this month for a documentary. You can see it on his instagram.

You have to wonder: what does it say about Netlix that they'd turn down work from one of the most elite wildlife shooters on the planet?

To me it says much more about Netflix bureaucracy than it does about Canon.


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## DBounce (Sep 14, 2022)

robotfist said:


> The Netflix camera certification has become a major industry standard and a guide by which many Hollywood producers operate. Even if you have no intention to shoot something for Netflix, if you work in the entertainment business in LA, having a Netflix-approved system increases the value and usability of your camera. How Canon managed to flunk the 4K Netflix standard with a brand new, 8K sensor that shoots raw, is beyond me. I'm guessing it's because of their stubborn refusal to put Clog2 in the R5C, which effectively reduces the camera's dynamic range, making it less acceptable for HDR content. That's the only thing I can think of. The prevention of Clog 2 in the R5C is the Canon cripple hammer in full force. I own both a C300 III and an R5C, and having to explain to post facilities that they need to use two different LUTs with the footage I'm handing them is really annoying. I wish they'd just give us CLog 2 on the R5C and stop being so stingy. But alas, it's Canon. And this sort of decision is on brand for them. I really hope the Netflix decision gives them a bit of a wake-up call, but I doubt it.


That’s just it… the R5C does not have a brand new sensor… it’s the same sensor as in the R5. The Canon camera with a brand new Canon sensor is the Eos R3, with the first stacked design sensor from Canon.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 14, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> Yes, but big broadcasters typically just list video specs any video they host has to conform to. They don't typically list cameras a production can or cannot use unless the broadcaster itself is the producer, and it's being edited in house by the broadcaster. If somebody makes a great show and a broadcaster wants to buy the rights, so they can broadcast or host it, they don't typically reject it because it wasn't shot on specific gear, no, they just go, "Hey, we need you to submit your content to us with these specs". To stipulate specific approved gear is to potentially dictate creative control. A DP or director or producer may be using a specific piece of gear for very specific technical or creative reasons, and to have Netflix (or any other broadcaster) come in and say "You can't shoot your show with that equipment because we don't approve of it" is ludicrous in my opinion, especially if the production is submitting finished video that they just have to distribute. No, they should just say finished video needs to conform to specs x, y, and z in order for us to host it. Again, if Netflix is the producer, that's a different story.


But here's the thing: if it's a Netflix original, Netflix * is* the producer. This certification only counts towards Netflix original productions.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 14, 2022)

rontele7 said:


> Tim Laman, one of National Geographic's top photographers, has been shooting video on an R5C this month for a documentary. You can see it on his instagram.
> 
> You have to wonder: what does it say about Netlix that they'd turn down work from one of the most elite wildlife shooters on the planet?
> 
> To me it says much more about Netflix bureaucracy than it does about Canon.


If he's shooting for NatGeo, you can be 100% sure that it will go to Disney+ first. It won't be a Netflix original production by any stretch of imagination.


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

DBounce said:


> That’s just it… the R5C does not have a brand new sensor… it’s the same sensor as in the R5. The Canon camera with a brand new Canon sensor is the Eos R3, with the first stacked design sensor from Canon.



True, but there are changes as it's proven to have more stops of dynamic range than the R5 and R3.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 14, 2022)

I was talking to a really, really geek friend of mine that ran some lab tests on the R5 C, and here's his theory:

"The signal to noise ratio of the EOS R5 C sensor is not up to standard with other cameras that I've tested. There's simply too much noise on the black levels. And my bet is due to the sensor resolution (8K).

They've made improvements over the original R5, but it's not nowhere near the C70, C300 Mk III or C500 Mk II. Heck, it's not near as close as the original C500, which is a decade old camera at this point.

It looks like a Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro 12K type of situation, which was another camera with extremely high resolution that has also been rejected by Netflix without a real explanation whatsoever.

I also don't know what Canon could do about the issue in order to make it passable by Netflix standards, if my theory turns out correct. It's not a matter of firmware update, like the FX3, which had the image quality but lacked the input and output for TC."


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## 2 cents (Sep 14, 2022)

I don't do video, and wish it wasn't even an option on my cameras - so I don't know what you guys are talking about.

Having said that, I find Canon's response rather concerning. Looks like they couldn't care less. Just like they could't care less about, us, the users of their products, perhaps? 

Canon have changed lately.


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## dolina (Sep 14, 2022)

2 cents said:


> I don't do video, and wish it wasn't even an option on my cameras - so I don't know what you guys are talking about.
> 
> Having said that, I find Canon's response rather concerning. Looks like they couldn't care less. Just like they could't care less about, us, the users of their products, perhaps?
> 
> Canon have changed lately.


I am thankful Canon included video into EF bodies as it helped economies of scale thus lowering the price per unit to what we are paying then rather than nearly doubling the per unit price because far less people would be using them.

It increased the utilization of the camera.

It is like how the inclusion of a back & front camera on the smartphone drove the sales of each to more than a billion per year.

Largely fueled by people wanting better cameras on their smartphone every 2-3 years or longer.


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

2 cents said:


> I don't do video, and wish it wasn't even an option on my cameras - so I don't know what you guys are talking about.
> 
> Having said that, I find Canon's response rather concerning. Looks like they couldn't care less. Just like they could't care less about, us, the users of their products, perhaps?
> 
> Canon have changed lately.


We don’t actually know Canon’s response, we’re taking these rumours and implied responses as fact. But assuming it’s true, I don’t feel offended as an R5C user. Would it be nice, sure! But Canon have multiple Netflix approved cameras if that’s a need. The R5C was never sold as one.


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## peters (Sep 14, 2022)

bergstrom said:


> Wasn't the R5C supposed to have bad autofocus. The slanted lens on YT did a review comparison of it.


Yes, this is correct. It was the reason I sold my R5C and switched back to a second R5. (This, and the aweful battery drain). The R5 AF is noteable better and the R5C does not even offer tracking AF in 4k120, which the R5 does. 
But this cant be the reason its not Netflix approved. Most Cinema Cameras have no AF at all.

Clog 2 missing - thats also a weird reason - the R5C got internal RAW. The RAW Footage can be set to Clog 2 in post....


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

Everyone disappointed with the R5C really wants an R3. Something that they’re used too but bigger and better. People are jumping to it thinking it’s a bigger better R5 but it’s not, it’s a smaller C70 that takes pictures.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 14, 2022)

Scenes said:


> Everyone disappointed with the R5C really wants an R3. Something that they’re used too but bigger and better. People are jumping to it thinking it’s a bigger better R5 but it’s not, it’s a smaller C70 that takes pictures.


Not really. I have a R5 C. The idea of getting a R3 went through my mind and I dropped after the announcement of the R5 C.

My line of thinking was: get a R5. I've rented one and the overheat was a major issue for me. I let go. 

Then the R3 was announced, but the camera did have some issues with overheating in slow motion. I was about to pull the plug on regardless, then Canon announced the R5 C and I got it instead.

The biggest difference between the R5 C and all of the Canon's mirrorless cameras is control. When shooting slowmotion, I can choose the project frame rate (24, 30 or 60) and also how many frames I'm shooting (up to 120). On the R5 and R3 I'm stuck in project with 30 frames and shooting 120. This is far from ideal.

The other thing was the IBIS. IBIS is a major plague when rigging a camera to a vehicle, so we use fixed sensor cameras. The R5 C solves that by getting rid of the IBIS.

Again, these things are minor, but it works seamless for me and the work that I do.


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

WhatDoesMStandsFor said:


> Not really. I have a R5 C. The idea of getting a R3 went through my mind and I dropped after the announcement of the R5 C.
> 
> My line of thinking was: get a R5. I've rented one and the overheat was a major issue for me. I let go.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you're coming at it from a filmmaking point of view. In which case I'd say you're the target market. Since I got an R5C and joined a ton of 'cinema' forums half the posters are unhappy and didn't know what they were getting themselves in for.

The video OS is different, auto focus different, no IBIS, battery drain, traditional buttons on the back of the camera you've built up memory muscle for using over years the R5C isn't even aware of in video mode. If you're showing stuff to a client you can't even display photos in video mode or videos in photo mode. They'd all have been better off with an R3 that works the way they expected.

That said, if you embrace the R5C for what it is.. a small cinema camera that takes photos.. and you're used to that way of working its a different experience altogether.


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## DBounce (Sep 14, 2022)

Scenes said:


> True, but there are changes as it's proven to have more stops of dynamic range than the R5 and R3.


I have yet to see it proven to have more dynamic range than the R3. Where did you see that review? Link please.


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## josephandrews222 (Sep 14, 2022)

This thread is an example of one of the times when reading CR makes me smarter. Thanks to all of the posters here with real-world experience and the desire to share that experience, in small, easily digestible bites.


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

DBounce said:


> I have yet to see it proven to have more dynamic range than the R3. Where did you see that review? Link please.


Gerald undone video review and DP Reviews web review spring to mind. It has two stops extra usable dynamic range compared to the R5. It’s pretty well established it’s why the footage cuts so well with C70 and Red Komodo comparisons.

Edit- attaching a still from CineD going in depth on usable range tests. It's 2 stops better than the R5.
https://www.cined.com/canon-eos-r5-c-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-latitude/


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## RunAndGun (Sep 14, 2022)

Scenes said:


> Maybe it’s as simple as the R5C doesn’t have built in ND?



Lots of Netflix approved cams with no internal ND(like RED or the aforementioned FX3).


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## RunAndGun (Sep 14, 2022)

And everyone always seems to forget or just doesn’t understand, the “Netflix Approved” camera list only applies to Netflix Original programming. For example, if someone went out and shot a doc on an iPhone 4 and Netflix liked it and wanted it, it’s fine. The “standard” only applies to their produced content.


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

RunAndGun said:


> Lots of Netflix approved cams with no internal ND(like RED or the aforementioned FX3).


Fair point


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

RunAndGun said:


> And everyone always seems to forget or just doesn’t understand, the “Netflix Approved” camera list only applies to Netflix Original programming. For example, if someone went out and shot a doc on an iPhone 4 and Netflix liked it and wanted it, it’s fine. The “standard” only applies to their produced content.


I think most people here understand that. And as some industry guys have pointed out, if you’re shooting freelance in LA it’s pretty much a requirement to have a netlfix approved camera as right or wrong it’s what the market wants. For the rest of us it’s more a badge of honour and bragging rights to clients.


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## jam05 (Sep 14, 2022)

It's a B cam. Who would need to use it more than 10% on a Netflix production? Ten percent is a lot of B roll for one individual camera. Certainly wouldn't be used as a main camera for Netflix anyhow. No need to address it at the moment or ever even. Basically a nothing burger. Something for nerds to chat about.


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## jam05 (Sep 14, 2022)

Scenes said:


> I think most people here understand that. And as some industry guys have pointed out, if you’re shooting freelance in LA it’s pretty much a requirement to have a netlfix approved camera as right or wrong it’s what the market wants. For the rest of us it’s more a badge of honour and bragging rights to client


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## jam05 (Sep 14, 2022)

A freelance in LA has no requirement to have a netflix approved camera nor do many adhere to such BS. If Netflix wants your content, it won't matter. If Kevin Hart's producer says that he's gonna use some B roll from a non certified camera, that's what they do. Who you are, matters. If you're a nobody and don't know anybody then one jumps through hoops that many don't have to.


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## sirbarton (Sep 14, 2022)

The Netflix approval is a good and bad thing. As multiple people have mentioned, it really only applies to Original productions and all studios have guidelines for image acquisition. The difference is that Netflix (like most streamers) is a Studio and a Network. You can make content on lots of non-approved cameras and the Netflix "Network" can acquire the streaming rights and it doesn't matter.

But the upside is that they test cameras and they provide really succinct "best practices" on their website for all to view. It's not just something sent to produciton and post when a production starts. 

The reality is that most viewers wouldn't know the difference from a RED Monster 8K acquired program and one shot on and Alexa XT upscaled to 4K. In fact a lot of cinematographers would prefer the Alexa.


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

Thought… could it be the micro HDMI?


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

jam05 said:


> A freelance in LA has no requirement to have a netflix approved camera nor do many adhere to such BS. If Netflix wants your content, it won't matter. If Kevin Hart's producer says that he's gonna use some B roll from a non certified camera, that's what they do. Who you are, matters. If you're a nobody and don't know anybody then one jumps through hoops that many don't have to.


Just going by what Freelancers in LA have said earlier in this thread. Are you in LA yourself? I'm not, so be great to hear a different take on it if it doesn't effect your work?

"Even if you have no intention to shoot something for Netflix, if you work in the entertainment business in LA, having a Netflix-approved system increases the value and usability of your camera." - Robotfist


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## DBounce (Sep 14, 2022)

Scenes said:


> Gerald undone video review and DP Reviews web review spring to mind. It has two stops extra usable dynamic range compared to the R5. It’s pretty well established it’s why the footage cuts so well with C70 and Red Komodo comparisons.
> 
> Edit- attaching a still from CineD going in depth on usable range tests. It's 2 stops better than the R5.
> https://www.cined.com/canon-eos-r5-c-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-latitude/
> ...


Nothing you have posted compared or referenced the Canon Eos R3 in respects to the R5C. Cined has yet to do any test of Canon’s newest sensor technology that is found in the R3. I believe you are thinking of comparisons to the R5 vs R5C… of which there are numerous to choose from. Zero for the R3. That goes for Mr.Undone also.


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## Juangrande (Sep 14, 2022)

WhatDoesMStandsFor said:


> Not really. I have a R5 C. The idea of getting a R3 went through my mind and I dropped after the announcement of the R5 C.
> 
> My line of thinking was: get a R5. I've rented one and the overheat was a major issue for me. I let go.
> 
> ...


I thought IBIS was something that could be turned off. So how could that be an issue when rigging to a vehicle. Just turn it off, or am I missing something?


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

DBounce said:


> Nothing you have posted compared or referenced the Canon Eos R3 in respects to the R5C. Cined has yet to do any test of Canon’s newest sensor technology that is found in the R3. I believe you are thinking of comparisons to the R5 vs R5C… of which there are numerous to choose from. Zero for the R3. That goes for Mr.Undone also.


Yes, apologies. You're correct. But I thought it was also established in many comparisons between the R3 and R5 they had pretty much the same dynamic range? So if the R5C is an established 2 stops wider than the R5 why would a direct R5C to R3 comparison show anything different?


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2022)

Juangrande said:


> I thought IBIS was something that could be turned off. So how could that be an issue when rigging to a vehicle. Just turn it off, or am I missing something?


As I understand it turning if off just essentially parks the sensor in the middle of the magnets that suspend it. That doesn't mean it can't be jiggled around and inadversly affect the image when off in things like fast pans or car mounts - unlike an actual fixed sensor that doesn't have IBIS. I think CVP? in the UK did a great car rig comparison video showing this.


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## adrian_bacon (Sep 14, 2022)

WhatDoesMStandsFor said:


> But here's the thing: if it's a Netflix original, Netflix * is* the producer. This certification only counts towards Netflix original productions.


Then why does everybody care that they're using Netflix approved equipment in their productions if Netflix isn't already in touch with them about their production? In the hopes that Netflix will notice and pick them up first as a Netflix original? This is where I have my issue... In that case, Netflix isn't really the producer, they're just simply first in line, and should be just giving minimum video specs for finished video like most other broadcasters do. If memory serves, for standard over the air broadcast, it's 1080 in mpeg2, 8 bit 422 at 50Mbps or something like that, at least here in the US. I haven't had to submit anything for standard broadcast for a while so I could be wrong there, but what equipment you use in those scenarios is irrelevant as long as your finished video conforms. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for standardizing things across the board as it generally makes everybody's life easier, but that standardization shouldn't be in the hands of Netflix alone.


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## RunAndGun (Sep 14, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> Then why does everybody care that they're using Netflix approved equipment in their productions if Netflix isn't already in touch with them about their production? In the hopes that Netflix will notice and pick them up first as a Netflix original? This is where I have my issue... In that case, Netflix isn't really the producer, they're just simply first in line, and should be just giving minimum video specs for finished video like most other broadcasters do. If memory serves, for standard over the air broadcast, it's 1080 in mpeg2, 8 bit 422 at 50Mbps or something like that, at least here in the US. I haven't had to submit anything for standard broadcast for a while so I could be wrong there, but what equipment you use in those scenarios is irrelevant as long as your finished video conforms. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for standardizing things across the board as it generally makes everybody's life easier, but that standardization shouldn't be in the hands of Netflix alone.


Kind of going off down a rabbit hole, but you do bring up a good point. * There are (big) differences in acquisition, delivery and broadcast(to the viewer) specs.* I'd say the _majority_ of us on here don't have to worry about anything except the acquisition specs, as we're not delivering finished content(i.e: fully produced, ready-to-air shows) to networks or "airing" that finished content ourselves(in the more traditional sense, not YouTube channels, etc.).

If anyone want to have some "fun", look up the (show) delivery specs for PBS...


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 15, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> Then why does everybody care that they're using Netflix approved equipment in their productions if Netflix isn't already in touch with them about their production? In the hopes that Netflix will notice and pick them up first as a Netflix original? This is where I have my issue... In that case, Netflix isn't really the producer, they're just simply first in line, and should be just giving minimum video specs for finished video like most other broadcasters do.


Not really. A good example was The Edge of Democracy, a doc shot in Brazil. Netflix didn't have any hand on it until the post production - when they've closed the deal, they had to recut the whole doc to acomodate +90% of a certified camera. Good thing they had shot most of it on a C300 Mk II, which is certified.

So yeah, in most cases Netflix is involved from the beginning, but there are cases in which they get involved in a later stage, and this avoids extra costs in reshooting.


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## DBounce (Sep 15, 2022)

Scenes said:


> Yes, apologies. You're correct. But I thought it was also established in many comparisons between the R3 and R5 they had pretty much the same dynamic range? So if the R5C is an established 2 stops wider than the R5 why would a direct R5C to R3 comparison show anything different?
> 
> View attachment 205607


That’s not video dynamic range. That is stills.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 15, 2022)

jam05 said:


> It's a B cam. Who would need to use it more than 10% on a Netflix production? Ten percent is a lot of B roll for one individual camera. Certainly wouldn't be used as a main camera for Netflix anyhow.


Have you ever watched Hyperdrive? There's a lot of cameras placed everywhere. You can reach 10% of a whole production pretty quickly.

And I've heard there was trouble at some point, because they had to start rigging RED cameras to the cars, as at the time there was no viable alternative. And in a motorsposrt competition, rigging a fully built cinema camera can add a ton of weight to the car and be dangerous to the driver. Far from ideal.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 15, 2022)

Scenes said:


> Thought… could it be the micro HDMI?


Doubt it. If they really cared about this, they would ask for SDI in all of certified cameras.


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## adrian_bacon (Sep 15, 2022)

WhatDoesMStandsFor said:


> So yeah, in most cases Netflix is involved from the beginning, but there are cases in which they get involved in a later stage, and this avoids extra costs in reshooting.


I have no problem when they're involved from the start and are the producer. That's totally their choice then, it's the lunacy the happens when that's not the case that burns me. You gave a perfect example. Making a production do a new cut to meet some acquisition rule, way after the fact? Seriously? What would have Netflix done if most of it wasn't shot on a camera they approved of? I guess they would have had no choice but to not run it as a Netflix original, unless they only follow their own rules when it's convenient for them. This is the slippery slope that's been created.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 15, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> What would have Netflix done if most of it wasn't shot on a camera they approved of? I guess they would have had no choice but to not run it as a Netflix original, unless they only follow their own rules when it's convenient for them.


That's exactly what would happen: if they could not meet the requirements and wanted that content so bad, they would've licensed only. If they could not meet the requirements and it was something deemed not wort it, Netflix would've said 'thank you, next' and be on their way. There's simple too much content out there and there's times that they simple don't care at all.

Also, they pay a somewhat considerable amount of money for the content to be a Netflix original, so... there's that as well.


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## Scenes (Sep 16, 2022)

DBounce said:


> That’s not video dynamic range. That is stills.


Why would the R3 have significant more dynamic range in video than stills than the R5?


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## Scenes (Sep 16, 2022)

Thought.. could it be because it the R5C? can't do 4K raw? Are all the other camera's on the list capable of 4K Raw specifically? That would explain why only three 4k black magic cameras are on the list?

It could also be something as simple as the native battery life sucks with NPH batteries or that the timecode in/out port on the side is the smaller non-standard DIN variety. Either of those issues would explain why canon has no interest in 'fixing it'.

Or super optimistic tin foil hat theory - it's the battery life specifically and canon has a firmware coming to address that they haven't announced yet.


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## dolina (Sep 16, 2022)

Would not be surprised if the R5 C not being certified to be used with Netflix productions has more to do with Canon's market segmentation or hardware limitations.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 16, 2022)

Scenes said:


> Thought.. could it be because it the R5C? can't do 4K raw? Are all the other camera's on the list capable of 4K Raw specifically? That would explain why only three 4k black magic cameras are on the list?
> 
> It could also be something as simple as the native battery life sucks with NPH batteries or that the timecode in/out port on the side is the smaller non-standard DIN variety. Either of those issues would explain why canon has no interest in 'fixing it'.
> 
> Or super optimistic tin foil hat theory - it's the battery life specifically and canon has a firmware coming to address that they haven't announced yet.


Doubt it.

The TC input being non-standard is not an issue, as the FX3 don't even have a TC input and does it through USB, and the Panasonic S1H also uses a super janky fix to have TC. Battery life is not an issue as well because there's workarounds, since you could power it up through a V-mount battery or power bank if you need the extra power.

And as far as resolution goes, we have cameras capable of recording 8K (V-Raptor, Monstro and VENICE 2) and 6K (Komodo, VENICE and C500 Mk II) in that list. The thing with Blackmagic is that none of the Pocket Cinema Cameras have a TC input, and that's the main reason they are not certified. 

The URSA 12K isn't certified, which I've theorize could be the same reason why the R5 C was rejected as well - the signal on the black levels is simply too noise, which affects the dynamic range on the camera and make it unable to work on HDR productions. This has been a trend that is being discussed right now, with Fuji launching the XH2 with 8K by compromising the dynamic range and rolling shutter of the XH2S just for the sake of slappping that 8K logo on the camera. It could be something as simple as Canon wanted to slap that 8K logo on a Cinema EOS camera to reach the market fast, decided to improve on the R5 sensor but it wasn't enough for dynamic range, Netflix rejected and they decided to step back because there's nothing they could do about it.


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## WhatDoesMStandsFor (Sep 16, 2022)

dolina said:


> Would not be surprised if the R5 C not being certified to be used with Netflix productions has more to do with Canon's market segmentation or hardware limitations.


I really doubt it, because they went far and beyond to include that TC terminal on the camera, and prioritize a TC input on the C70 as well just to get that certification. Seems like they missed the point on other stuff, really.


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## DBounce (Sep 17, 2022)

Scenes said:


> Why would the R3 have significant more dynamic range in video than stills than the R5?


Lots of cameras have different dynamic range in video compared to stills. The most recent example that comes to mind is the Fuji X-H2S.


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## Scenes (Sep 17, 2022)

It makes no sense to me a sports DSLR would have more dynamic range than a cinema camera. 

I can’t 100% say it doesn’t, but just because someone hasn’t compared those models of cameras directly doesn’t mean you can’t anticipate what the result would be. 

But we’re kinda going around in circles, so I wish you well and hope you find what your looking for.


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## adrian_bacon (Sep 17, 2022)

Scenes said:


> Why would the R3 have significant more dynamic range in video than stills than the R5?


Because video typically uses a 12 bit ADC and stills use a 14 bit ADC (or more depending on the camera).

EDIT: misread your question... while it's true stills typically uses a higher bit depth ADC, video is usually pretty significantly downscaled from a higher resolution, and that has the effect of increasing the measured dynamic range due to how it's measured. For example, capturing video at 8K and output at 8K will have one measured DR number, taking that same 8K source and downscaling it to 4K, then measuring the DR again usually results in a different DR, then again, taking that same 8K source and downscaling it to 2K will give yet another DR number. The more oversampled the picture is, the higher the measured DR tends to be due to the oversampling reducing the noise levels when scaled down. There are a number of things that can affect this, but that's the general gist.


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## martin_p_a (Sep 18, 2022)

Maybe Netflix should certify their writers and show-runners, instead of the cameras.


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## koenkooi (Sep 18, 2022)

adrian_bacon said:


> Because video typically uses a 12 bit ADC and stills use a 14 bit ADC (or more depending on the camera).
> 
> EDIT: misread your question... while it's true stills typically uses a higher bit depth ADC, video is usually pretty significantly downscaled from a higher resolution, and that has the effect of increasing the measured dynamic range due to how it's measured. For example, capturing video at 8K and output at 8K will have one measured DR number, taking that same 8K source and downscaling it to 4K, then measuring the DR again usually results in a different DR, then again, taking that same 8K source and downscaling it to 2K will give yet another DR number. The more oversampled the picture is, the higher the measured DR tends to be due to the oversampling reducing the noise levels when scaled down. There are a number of things that can affect this, but that's the general gist.


Also, the video DR is measured in a different way than stills DR, so you can't 1:1 compare those numbers. I get the impression that "video people" don't care as much about "processing" being fake/bad/cheap, they just want the promised 18 stops of DR in the resulting video file, even if the raw 1:1 sensor readout can't do that without noise reduction and downsampling.


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## Drazen (Sep 19, 2022)

The whole 8K hype seems so incredibly overblown to me. Netflix is a streaming service, and with todays TV's you can barely notice a difference between 4K and 1080, let alone 4K vs 8K. I have an 85 inch 4K tv in my living room and recent 1080 content looks very good just with the built in upscaler.

On my smaller 55 inch tv, you literally can't tell the resolution apart from a normal viewing distance. I doubt many people even have room to fit a TV larger than 75-85 in their apartments, so to me 8K seems reduntant for tv productions.

And yes, I'm aware that it gives you flexibility in framing later on, but still... I think most pros will always frame their shots during the takes, rather then go wide and say "we'll figure it out later".


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## dolina (Sep 19, 2022)

Many may argue "What's the point?" but that question has been asked for decades for any tech.

I expect 8K resolution streaming to start entering the mainstream by 2026. 8K blu-ray is doubtful.

I know many will argue against this so as a hedge here is a timeline of resolution/media

- 2016: 4K blu-ray & Netflix's international expansion
- 2006: 2K blu-ray
- 1996: DVD video (720 × 480 pixels (D-1 resolution, 4:3 or 16:9))

When replacing displays it should be scheduled when format gets released and be kept as early as the next tech bump.

From a business point of view manufacturers they'd saturate the market of 4K TVs with good margins by a decade. So they need you to replace it.


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## Kit. (Sep 19, 2022)

Scenes said:


> Why would the R3 have significant more dynamic range in video than stills than the R5?


Electronic shutter, where R5 sacrifices bit depth to achieve acceptable readout speed.


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## R5R7 (Sep 19, 2022)

LoL my R5 (not sure about the R5C because I canceled my order and bought the R7 as a B cam) natively sends a C-LOG2 signal (and NOTHNG ELSE) out over HDMI. Which means anyone with a four hundred dollar Ninja V (at 12 bit 5k) or a five hundred dollar Ninja V+ (at 12 bit 5k or 10 bit 8k) can record C-LOG2 footage into the industry standard ProRes or ProRes Raw file and easily meet Netfleas' C-LOG2 requirement. I would imagine the same goes for the IBIS-stripped R5C. So the only thing preventing the R5 from being Netfleas' approved is the floating sensor, which didn't stop Netfleas from approving the less capable & small sensor Panasonic. I guess Netfleas' bizarre personal employee' bias against Dave Chappelle also translates into personal employeee' bias against camera brands? Because while the Panasonic is great little camera, it's not Netfleas certified for resolutions above 4k (yucky line skipping is Panasonic's way of achieving 6k), and therefore there is no other explanation for why it would be Netfleas-approved while the R5 is not. The rumor for why the R5 wasn't approved was because it has a floating sensor (IBIS), but guess what, so does the Panasonic. Netfleas could easily have just limited the R5's use to having IBIS disabled, like they limited the Panasonic's use to 4k resolution. If overheating and recording limits are an issue for Netfleas, they could have limited the R5 to 4k (like they did with the Panasonic) or wait for it... approve the R5 when using the Atomos recorders. Some will say that the Ninjas and Shoguns are extra accessories that shouldn't be considered, but that sounds like an elitist argument. If Netfleas can make an exception for Panasonic's line skipping above 4k and typical average quality in body audio audio amp (as compared to cinema cams), surely they can make the R5 Netfleas approved when used with a Ninja V or better external recorder, and simply specify required file formats (like they do for every other camera).


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## R5R7 (Sep 19, 2022)

Scenes said:


> It can’t be lack of CLOG 2 because the shooting specs for the C70 specify approved footage settings of CLOG 2 or CLOG 3. It wouldn’t have effected my decision to get an R5C either way but would be nice to think a firmware update could fix it.
> 
> Maybe it’s as simple as the R5C doesn’t have built in ND?
> 
> ...


The Panasonic S1H doesn't have ND. So no.


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## adrian_bacon (Sep 19, 2022)

koenkooi said:


> Also, the video DR is measured in a different way than stills DR, so you can't 1:1 compare those numbers. I get the impression that "video people" don't care as much about "processing" being fake/bad/cheap, they just want the promised 18 stops of DR in the resulting video file, even if the raw 1:1 sensor readout can't do that without noise reduction and downsampling.


True. Also, how it's downsampled can affect that as well. If you pixel bin, you'll get a different number than if you do an actual interpolated rescale using an interpolation algorithm like Catmull-Rom. A lot of different things can affect what the numbers come out to.


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## scyrene (Sep 20, 2022)

R5R7 said:


> LoL my R5 (not sure about the R5C because I canceled my order and bought the R7 as a B cam) natively sends a C-LOG2 signal (and NOTHNG ELSE) out over HDMI. Which means anyone with a four hundred dollar Ninja V (at 12 bit 5k) or a five hundred dollar Ninja V+ (at 12 bit 5k or 10 bit 8k) can record C-LOG2 footage into the industry standard ProRes or ProRes Raw file and easily meet Netfleas' C-LOG2 requirement. I would imagine the same goes for the IBIS-stripped R5C. So the only thing preventing the R5 from being Netfleas' approved is the floating sensor, which didn't stop Netfleas from approving the less capable & small sensor Panasonic. I guess Netfleas' bizarre personal employee' bias against Dave Chappelle also translates into personal employeee' bias against camera brands? Because while the Panasonic is great little camera, it's not Netfleas certified for resolutions above 4k (yucky line skipping is Panasonic's way of achieving 6k), and therefore there is no other explanation for why it would be Netfleas-approved while the R5 is not. The rumor for why the R5 wasn't approved was because it has a floating sensor (IBIS), but guess what, so does the Panasonic. Netfleas could easily have just limited the R5's use to having IBIS disabled, like they limited the Panasonic's use to 4k resolution. If overheating and recording limits are an issue for Netfleas, they could have limited the R5 to 4k (like they did with the Panasonic) or wait for it... approve the R5 when using the Atomos recorders. Some will say that the Ninjas and Shoguns are extra accessories that shouldn't be considered, but that sounds like an elitist argument. If Netfleas can make an exception for Panasonic's line skipping above 4k and typical average quality in body audio audio amp (as compared to cinema cams), surely they can make the R5 Netfleas approved when used with a Ninja V or better external recorder, and simply specify required file formats (like they do for every other camera).


Why do you keep spelling their name like that?


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## R5R7 (Sep 20, 2022)

scyrene said:


> Why do you keep spelling their name like that?


Ask Dave Chappelle


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## scyrene (Sep 20, 2022)

R5R7 said:


> Ask Dave Chappelle


Oh ok.


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## DudeInTheSky (Sep 30, 2022)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Time Code on EOS R5C drifts too much to meet SMPTE spec. I've tried to stab it like we normally do with C300s, but it's seconds off by lunch instead of a single frame. You can always make the TC accurate with an external Lock-It box, but having to rely on an external box might not meet Netflix spec.


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## stevelee (Oct 1, 2022)

Drazen said:


> The whole 8K hype seems so incredibly overblown to me. Netflix is a streaming service, and with todays TV's you can barely notice a difference between 4K and 1080, let alone 4K vs 8K. I have an 85 inch 4K tv in my living room and recent 1080 content looks very good just with the built in upscaler.
> 
> On my smaller 55 inch tv, you literally can't tell the resolution apart from a normal viewing distance. I doubt many people even have room to fit a TV larger than 75-85 in their apartments, so to me 8K seems reduntant for tv productions.
> 
> And yes, I'm aware that it gives you flexibility in framing later on, but still... I think most pros will always frame their shots during the takes, rather then go wide and say "we'll figure it out later".


I have a 65” top-rated OLED 4K set in my living room. The picture is spectacular. (And I paid less for it than I did for the 46” Sony LCD 13 years ago.) I have an Apple TV 4K, but my sources all run through my receiver whose HDMI doesn’t support transmitting 4K information. I can stream Apple TV+, for example, directly to the TV and get 4K signal, but then the sound comes from the TV speakers, not bad, but not 5.1 surround in all its glory. I have tried looking at the picture both ways, and from my viewing distance, I think I can see a bit of difference, but that may be my imagination. The upscaled 1080p looks so good that I’d rather watch it with the really good sound than see the 4K. I have a 5K monitor for my Mac Studio, and had a 5K iMac before that. Video looks great on it from two feet away, but even then 1080p shown full screen generally looks good. For streaming, I suspect that bit rate can be more meaningful that resolution, beyond a certain point. (And I am not motivated to replace my surround receiver just to stream 4K when I don’t need to upgrade it otherwise.) I do shoot 4K video on occasion with my iPhone or my G5X II and then do my framing and zooming in post and produce a 1080p product. The iPhone has a fixed wide angle, so that cropping is frequently necessary, and the G5X II zoom is not something that looks decent or much controllable while shooting. Even my older iMac would eat 4K video for lunch in FCP X so it is not a matter of file size or editing speed. I certainly don’t begrudge anyone who needs to shoot 8K. I just can’t imagine ever being one of them.


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## davision (Dec 9, 2022)

The R5 C has CLog2 in it\'s RAW Codec. So I guess that could not be the Point.


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## Scenes (Dec 9, 2022)

davision said:


> The R5 C has CLog2 in it\'s RAW Codec. So I guess that could not be the Point.


That’s not so much the R5C shoots CLog 2 as the R5C shoots raw which happens to be processed with CLog2 if you get the difference. It may look more pleasing to the eye with a different highlight roll off but it’s not magically giving the sensor extra stops of dynamic range.


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