# New EOS M Camera & Lens Make an Appearance



## ahsanford (Oct 7, 2015)

That looks super tiny. This almost looks like a step _downmarket_ rather than upmarket. This isn't the droid we're looking for... 

http://digicame-info.com/2015/10/eos-m-ef-m15-45mm-f35-63-is-st.html

http://photorumors.com/2015/10/07/this-is-the-new-canon-eos-mirrorless-camera-m4-with-a-new-ef-m-15-45mm-lens/

- A


----------



## rs (Oct 7, 2015)

Translated link:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdigicame-info.com%2F2015%2F10%2Feos-m-ef-m15-45mm-f35-63-is-st.html&edit-text=&act=url

From the direction of the reader, we have to provide an image of the new EOS M new lens is mounted.
Canon will soon new EOS M (name is unknown), it will announce the EF-M15-45mm F3.5-6.3 IS STM.
Details are unknown, but since the new EOS M, such as the simple and compact body, it sounds like the EOS M entry model of which had been rumored abroad. Since the lens is new 15-45mm F3.5-6.3 is attached, a possibility that this lens is the kit lens is a high likely. 
----------------------------------- 
Thank you for those who have sent images and information.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 7, 2015)

rs said:


> Translated link:
> 
> https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdigicame-info.com%2F2015%2F10%2Feos-m-ef-m15-45mm-f35-63-is-st.html&edit-text=&act=url
> 
> ...



Yep. I'm seeing chatter of this being a 'Baby EOS-M'. Yikes. Downmarket it is.

- A


----------



## rs (Oct 7, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Yep. I'm seeing chatter of this being a 'Baby EOS-M'. Yikes. Downmarket it is.
> 
> - A



That's where the bulk of the sales are, especially when it comes to cameras which are built from the ground up to be smaller than SLR's. Small, light and cheap. I wouldn't be surprised to see this become a huge success within Japan, and do well in many other markets too.


----------



## Tugela (Oct 7, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> That looks super tiny. This almost looks like a step _downmarket_ rather than upmarket. This isn't the droid we're looking for...
> 
> http://digicame-info.com/2015/10/eos-m-ef-m15-45mm-f35-63-is-st.html
> 
> ...



It's model name will be the EOS M0, since "4" is considered bad luck. Since the next model is a "0" (or "zero" for those lacking insight), it has to be a step down. Canon have decided that mirrorless is not the future and thus their strategy to fight against it is to produce pure junk that no one in their right mind would want to buy!


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 7, 2015)

Tugela said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > That looks super tiny. This almost looks like a step _downmarket_ rather than upmarket. This isn't the droid we're looking for...
> ...



The entire platform remains dead to me until I see an integral EVF and native EF-M lenses with USM. I just keep hoping each new version will offer that.

- A


----------



## zim (Oct 7, 2015)

The G5X development looks more interesting


----------



## scrup (Oct 7, 2015)

Just when i thought i knew which direction canon was going. Canon trolls us with the next iteration of the M.


----------



## Vivid Color (Oct 7, 2015)

It doesn't seem to have a hotshoe. That's really too bad.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 7, 2015)

Give them some _small_ credit here: a 15-something APS-C zoom is so much more useful than an 18-something APS-C zoom.

I have little idea why they keep pushing 18-55 for any reason other than cost. 

- A


----------



## Luds34 (Oct 7, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



+1 on the integrated EVF. 

However the USM is probably not needed. The 18-55 kit lens can focus quite fast, much faster then the original M focus system (and probably the M3 as well). There just is so little glass, not much weight, inertial to over come.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 7, 2015)

Luds34 said:


> +1 on the integrated EVF.
> 
> However the USM is probably not needed. The 18-55 kit lens can focus quite fast, much faster then the original M focus system (and probably the M3 as well). There just is so little glass, not much weight, inertial to over come.



I'm sorry, I meant a _proper_ lens: internal focusing, nearly silent focusing, fast/consistent focusing, distance scale, etc. Those are always USM lenses, so I just associated the two. If an STM lens can focus 80% as quickly at USM and give me the above features, I'd consider it.

I just want something like the 24/28/35 IS lenses in the smaller EF-M footprint. Native EF-M without an adapter for best AF speed. Basically, a 7 out of 10 lens feature-wise. That's all I need. Doesn't need to be sealed or have a red ring.

But my criteria are higher than just 'small' and 'sharp'. Features and handling matter.

- A


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 7, 2015)

put a touchscreen interface on the back, give it WiFi and the ability to connect to hotspots, and a simple browser (uploads to facebook and twitter) and I bet it will sell quite well.....

We have to remember that it is not the Pro cameras and "Big Whites" that keeps the lights on at the factory, it's the overwhelming sales of rebels and p/s cameras that makes the company profitable....


----------



## Nininini (Oct 7, 2015)

rs said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Yep. I'm seeing chatter of this being a 'Baby EOS-M'. Yikes. Downmarket it is.
> ...



Honestly, it's just a race to the bottom, similar to the smartphone market. I don't think there is much money to be made in small mirrorless systems. Japanese companies hold some very specific patents that shield them from globalisation, but those patents are about to expire.


----------



## ablearcher (Oct 7, 2015)

Don't they already have like three entry/basic level models (M, M2, M3)?? I thought that Canon dude recently said that Canon will be coming up with a serious mirrorless body everyone is waiting for. Is that it? How more basic they wanna go?


----------



## 9VIII (Oct 7, 2015)

I still wish they would sell a round camera body the same size as the back cap.
It would turn pancake lenses into pancake cameras (at lest EF-M, EF lenses would be more of a hamburger camera), it would be great for most macro work on a tripod (where the less you touch the camera the better) and it would let the 400f5.6 fit in a water bottle pouch.


----------



## FunkyCamera (Oct 7, 2015)

This is why no pros will ever switch from a proper Canon DSLR to a mirrorless - just like all mirrorless cameras this looks utterly pathetic and will probably perform even worse. Probably better than those junk toy Sonys though.


----------



## Tugela (Oct 7, 2015)

ablearcher said:


> Don't they already have like three entry/basic level models (M, M2, M3)?? I thought that Canon dude recently said that Canon will be coming up with a serious mirrorless body everyone is waiting for. Is that it? How more basic they wanna go?



He probably thought that everyone was waiting for a dumbed down version, because everyone knows (at Canon HQ at least) that mirrorless cameras are for non-serious photographers.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 7, 2015)

rs said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Yep. I'm seeing chatter of this being a 'Baby EOS-M'. Yikes. Downmarket it is.
> ...



The M3 has been out for a while now, but in Japan the M2 is selling better than the M3...and the M2 is smaller, lighter, and cheaper. What does that tell Canon?


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 7, 2015)

It seems that EF-M 15-45mm will be the first zoom lens pancake.

A camera that truly fits in your pocket?


----------



## TAF (Oct 7, 2015)

9VIII said:


> I still wish they would sell a round camera body the same size as the back cap.
> It would turn pancake lenses into pancake cameras (at lest EF-M, EF lenses would be more of a hamburger camera), it would be great for most macro work on a tripod (where the less you touch the camera the better) and it would let the 400f5.6 fit in a water bottle pouch.



That is a brilliant idea. With a remote (tethered; WiFi would eat battery too quickly in such a small form factor) EVF and shutter button, that has lots of potential for covert photography or perhaps what might be called 'better angle' work (ie: you could put the camera up high or down low, clamped to a ladder or to say a golf club thing, and take pictures comfortably).

The Canon Cap. Coming soon to Amazon...


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 7, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> rs said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...


If it had WiFi and the ability to do simple editing (crop/resize/brightness) and upload, I'd get one......


----------



## gn100 (Oct 8, 2015)

ablearcher said:


> Don't they already have like three entry/basic level models (M, M2, M3)?? I thought that Canon dude recently said that Canon will be coming up with a serious mirrorless body everyone is waiting for. Is that it? How more basic they wanna go?



To date Canon have had one line of mirrorless...... I think this is the start of splitting to 2 or more lines - this will be the baby-M, where it's all about small size. What canon have been referring to (the highly desired mirrorless), is likely to be the big brother line. This "baby-M" will compete against compact cameras for the consumer level market, whereas big-brother M will better serve the enthusiast market.

I doubt this is a "replacement" for the M3. I'm actually optimistic, as it seems Canon may have recognised there are different groups of users interested in mirrorless ...... or maybe I'm just thinking too much!!?


----------



## bf (Oct 8, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> It seems that EF-M 15-45mm will be the first zoom lens pancake.
> 
> A camera that truly fits in your pocket?


It looks collapsable to me. If it shrinks this much, I think it will sell!


----------



## casperl (Oct 8, 2015)

I also read Asian photography forum, let's just say people over there are much more enthusiastic about this news than here 

And looks like it may be called EOS M10
http://support-my.canon-asia.com/contents/MY/EN/8202260900.html


----------



## mrsfotografie (Oct 8, 2015)

Tugela said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > That looks super tiny. This almost looks like a step _downmarket_ rather than upmarket. This isn't the droid we're looking for...
> ...



Why? What's wrong with a tiny camera that has a big sensor???  ;D


----------



## Hjalmarg1 (Oct 8, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> The entire platform remains dead to me until I see an integral EVF and native EF-M lenses with USM. I just keep hoping each new version will offer that.
> 
> - A


Sony, Fuji and Olympus are way ahead in the mirrorless compact cameras. Very serous alternatives for entusiasts and travel. Canon disappoints again....
Simply they don't want to canibalize their DSRL entry level line.


----------



## mrsfotografie (Oct 8, 2015)

bf said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > It seems that EF-M 15-45mm will be the first zoom lens pancake.
> ...



It instantly reminds me of the Sony E PZ 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 OSS. That lens is a zoom-pancake. Optically it's terrible if left uncorrected by in-camera or post-processing. I suspect Canon is going down the same road wit this one...


----------



## mrsfotografie (Oct 8, 2015)

Hjalmarg1 said:


> Sony, Fuji and Olympus are way ahead in the mirrorless compact cameras. Very serous alternatives for entusiasts and travel.



+1

My Sony Alpha6000 is proving to be a very capable camera, a blessing especially now that I'm forced to leave my DSLR's at home because I'm recovering from a collarbone fracture. Image quality wise it beats Canon APS-C hands-down. That Sony sensor is fabulous.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 8, 2015)

While a reasonably priced "smallest possible APS-C sensored interchangeable lens EOS camera" with pancake kit-zoom does make a lot more sense than all those really clumsy Canon G powershots it will not do much for Canon. Target audience is not very likely to buy additional EF-M lenses. For that, they really really need a higher end, absolutely competitive EOS M "Pro" model with built-in EVF, top notch AF performance, responsiveness, user interface and control points. While still being very compact and easily affordable. 

Canon should bring both simultaneously:
* cheap, tiny baby M with pancake kit zoom and
* M "Pro" along with a new EF-M prime - ideally an ultracompact portrait tele e.g. EF-M 80mm f/2.0 IS STM 8)

That would send the right signal to the market.


----------



## Mr_Canuck (Oct 8, 2015)

I saw a sony a5000 for $399 next to an M3 for $999 today and had to laugh, or cry, or just think, c'mon Canon, get a grip on this.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr_Canuck said:


> I saw a sony a5000 for $399 next to an M3 for $999 today and had to laugh, or cry, or just think, c'mon Canon, get a grip on this.



Canon has heard you ... so the new "baby m" plus f/6.3 kitzoom might pe priced "really low" ... at 899 or 799 "only" ... ;D :  :


----------



## mrsfotografie (Oct 8, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> Mr_Canuck said:
> 
> 
> > I saw a sony a5000 for $399 next to an M3 for $999 today and had to laugh, or cry, or just think, c'mon Canon, get a grip on this.
> ...



But then, Sony makes a killing on their 'quality' E-mount lenses : My 35 F1.8 OSS and 16-70 ZA OSS for instance really were too expensive, but they do deliver optically.


----------



## WorkonSunday (Oct 8, 2015)

one clear advantage of the sony pancake over its traditionally designed older counterpart 18-55mm is the small glass elements in the lens which allows it to focus rather fast. I'm hoping canon's new pancake can do the same.


----------



## grainier (Oct 8, 2015)

That's not what we wait for you to deliver, Canon.


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 8, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> While a reasonably priced "smallest possible APS-C sensored interchangeable lens EOS camera" with pancake kit-zoom does make a lot more sense than all those really clumsy Canon G powershots it will not do much for Canon. Target audience is not very likely to buy additional EF-M lenses. For that, they really really need a higher end, absolutely competitive EOS M "Pro" model with built-in EVF, top notch AF performance, responsiveness, user interface and control points. While still being very compact and easily affordable.
> 
> Canon should bring both simultaneously:
> * cheap, tiny baby M with pancake kit zoom and
> ...


Yes, but remember..... Most of the people who buy rebels never buy another lens.... At the time they sold their 150 millionth EF lens they were at 120 million EF cameras..... We people with a bag full of lenses are the abnormalities in the general scheme of things.


----------



## lux (Oct 8, 2015)

I prefer unusual to abnormal...just sayin'


----------



## FunkyCamera (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr_Canuck said:


> I saw a sony a5000 for $399 next to an M3 for $999 today and had to laugh, or cry, or just think, c'mon Canon, get a grip on this.


Well people aren't idiots, those are clearly the prices people are willing to pay for each of the cameras. The M3 is a far superior camera and the price reflects that.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 8, 2015)

grainier said:


> That's not what we wait for you to deliver, Canon.



Who is 'we'?

There's one person on this forum who thinks the next iteration in the line should be called the EOS AvTv-M, but Canon doesn't design cameras specifically for you or me or that guy.


----------



## Nininini (Oct 8, 2015)

FunkyCamera said:


> This is why no pros will ever switch from a proper Canon DSLR to a mirrorless - just like all mirrorless cameras this looks utterly pathetic and will probably perform even worse. Probably better than those junk toy Sonys though.



Not to mention a digital viewfinder uses up battery like crazy. For all the hoopla people are making about Sony mirrorless, their battery life is pathetic.


----------



## baervan (Oct 8, 2015)

The life of a mid-level Canon user is a life of 50 shades of disappointment


----------



## SeppOz (Oct 8, 2015)

Actually I am really curious what the specs for this one will be. If Canon are going to have multiple models (higher end and entry level) running it would show that they are starting to invest more in this line that will hopefully lead to a better enthusiast model. In the mean time, I still get good use out of my M3 and M2.


----------



## Chaitanya (Oct 8, 2015)

Don Haines said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > While a reasonably priced "smallest possible APS-C sensored interchangeable lens EOS camera" with pancake kit-zoom does make a lot more sense than all those really clumsy Canon G powershots it will not do much for Canon. Target audience is not very likely to buy additional EF-M lenses. For that, they really really need a higher end, absolutely competitive EOS M "Pro" model with built-in EVF, top notch AF performance, responsiveness, user interface and control points. While still being very compact and easily affordable.
> ...


Quite true, I know a lot of camera shooter who purchased slrs just because they are cheap and since both canon and nikon have two lens kit options in India they get that as it offered a better deal. this group of users have never changed from their kit lens and are terrified to remove the lens and they think it might actually break their camera.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 8, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> grainier said:
> 
> 
> > That's not what we wait for you to deliver, Canon.
> ...



1. I do like your proposed naming scheme for the next, "hi-end" EOS M model. 

2. "We" is many gazillion potential customers globally, yes including the US. Feel free to start a poll here, how many of us would be interested to get an EOS M body higher specced than the M3 and fully competitive with any mirrorless APS-C camera offered by other vendors. Canon would definitely sell a really good number of those ... in addition to the one (1) I'd order. 8) 
Provided they make it, it is really decent and sold at a reasonable price AT LAUNCH already - for once! Rather than waiting until they have to give it away at fire sales prices ...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 8, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> "We" is many gazillion potential customers globally, yes including the US. Feel free to start a poll here, how many of us would be interested to get an EOS M body higher specced than the M3 and fully competitive with any mirrorless APS-C camera offered by other vendors.



You mean fully competitive with those other vendors' MILCs, when Canon sells more entry-level dSLRs than all those other vendors' MILCs combined?


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Oct 8, 2015)

I think Canon isn't just going down market with the EOS M series, it's going in multiple directions. The new smaller EOS M (possibly a stripped down EOS M2) with 15-45mm lens is a new entry level model while leaving the current M3 in the middle. This leaves room for a higher end model with a possible duel-pixel sensor and built in EVF. Canon could very well be doing what Nikon did for the 1 series. Nikon has the S for the entry level, J for middle, and V for the high end. This new EOS M may very well be Canon's "S" version, and if priced right it may open up the EOS M system to many more customers .


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr_Canuck said:


> I saw a sony a5000 for $399 next to an M3 for $999 today and had to laugh, or cry, or just think, c'mon Canon, get a grip on this.



I'm sure this new EOS M will be priced around $400. It'll probably be based on a stripped down EOS M2, which isn't a bad thing .


----------



## Crosswind (Oct 8, 2015)

Tugela said:


> Canon have decided that mirrorless is not the future and thus their strategy to fight against it is to produce pure junk that no one in their right mind would want to buy!



That's just pure bullshit you're talking. Have patience.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 8, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > "We" is many gazillion potential customers globally, yes including the US. Feel free to start a poll here, how many of us would be interested to get an EOS M body higher specced than the M3 and fully competitive with any mirrorless APS-C camera offered by other vendors.
> ...



From what I observe, those Canon "Rebels" aren't really selling well any more. At least not in sophisticated European markets. Enthusiasts want better specs, casual shooters/happy snappers want camera gear even smaller/lighter than Rebel and EF-S -> =mirrorless. And that's what they are buying. 

I have no doubt that DSLRs at "Rebel" level will globally be dead in the water a year or two from now. Nothing can save those puny tunnel-OVF mirror-flippers ... 

Canon should kill both EOS Rebel and the entire Powershot G lineup and offer a meaningful EOS M system to those target groups. 3 bodies at 3 pricepoints sound good as a next step: "Baby M", M3 (-> M4), and higher end "M-AvTv-Pro" would make a lot of sense. Many purchasers would also be willing to buy the one or other (additional) EF-M lens, both from existing lineup and new ones. Anything from consumer zooms like 18-200, 16-85 to additional primes - anywhere between ultra-compact and cheap "pancakes" to somewhat higher end lenses [up to about where those Fuji XF lenses are positioned]. 

Canon would be rather stupid if they'd prefer to sell G7X and cheapo Rebel bodies with 18-55 kitzoom, when they could just as well be selling higher-margin EOS M bodies and EF-M lenses and hurt Fuji + Sony at the same time ...


----------



## scyrene (Oct 8, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> I have no doubt that DSLRs at "Rebel" level will globally be dead in the water a year or two from now. Nothing can save those puny tunnel-OVF mirror-flippers ...



Even you must recognise this as hyperbole. Entry-level DSLRs are still the biggest-selling type of interchangeable lens camera, and that'll all evaporate in a year? Even two?

And since you've provided no evidence, I'll counter with anecdote: people approach me from time to time asking about getting a 'proper' camera. They always mean a basic DSLR. Often I think a mirrorless system would suit them better, but they are not interested. Partly the extra cost, and partly because MILCs are not perceived as 'proper' cameras by lay folk.

The tide may be turning, but it is slow. "Rebels" will be around for a long time yet.


----------



## casperl (Oct 8, 2015)

I think this M's target audience is obviously not for serious photographer discussing about camera spec on rumour forum...  With compact camera being replaced by smartphone, these kind of camera moved down to the consumer market. I am not on this forum long enough to know if anybody trash the design of Canon's Powershot AXXXX back then.


----------



## grainier (Oct 8, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> grainier said:
> 
> 
> > That's not what we wait for you to deliver, Canon.
> ...



Clearly, not you and me.


----------



## lw (Oct 8, 2015)

specs now leaked

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://digicame-info.com/

As of specs for the next EOS M10.
- Sensor: 18MP APS-C CMOS
- Size: 108 x 66.6 x 35mm
- Weight: 301g
- Monitor: 3 inches 1.04 million dot
- Image processing engine: DIGIC6
- AF system: Hybrid CMOS AF III (facial recognition + tracking)
- Lens Kit: EOS M10 and 15-45mm IS STM
- Double Zoom Kit: EOS 10M and the EF-M 15-45mm IS STM & 55-200mm IS STM (price $ 849.99)
Price of the EF-M 15-45mm F3.5-6.3 IS STM is $ 299.99


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 8, 2015)

scyrene said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > I have no doubt that DSLRs at "Rebel" level will globally be dead in the water a year or two from now. Nothing can save those puny tunnel-OVF mirror-flippers ...
> ...



Hey, if I don't want it then nobody does...right? :


----------



## Tinky (Oct 8, 2015)

No Dual Pixel AF. No thanks.

Canon has a belter of a technology, and they don't employ it in the one range that really needs it.

f6.3?

This is the EOS 1000n of it's day.


----------



## josephandrews222 (Oct 8, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> rs said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



My M2 is a bit smaller and a bit lighter than my M1.

My M2 focuses just a bit faster than my M1. Actually, sometimes more than a bit faster.

The M2's wifi and the iOS app to work with it are special.

Sometimes I laugh out loud (while groaning, if that makes any sense) at what I read on this forum about Canon's mirrorless efforts.

Different strokes for different folks (I guess).

I think I will sit out the M3 and wait for an M with dSLR focusing speed.

Until then, my Ms, with the 11-22mm wide-angle zoom, and 22mm pancake lenses...serve my needs quite nicely, thank you (in terms of people-oriented around-the-house and vacation photos). It is amazing how tiny they are...

Anything requiring telephoto focal lengths and precise focusing...and its back to the 5DM3...


----------



## thepancakeman (Oct 8, 2015)

So are cameras going to follow the same trend as cell phones:

Smaller, smaller, smaller...until suddenly...bigger, bigger, bigger?


----------



## Rocky (Oct 8, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> It seems that EF-M 15-45mm will be the first zoom lens pancake.
> 
> A camera that truly fits in your pocket?


I am curious about what make you say that it will be a pancake lens?


----------



## Chaitanya (Oct 8, 2015)

lw said:


> specs now leaked
> 
> https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://digicame-info.com/
> 
> ...



At that price of 300$ there is no point in getting a P&S anymore. Plus need be one can easily use all the EF/EF-S lenses with their adaptor. 

on a serious side note: I though canon had run out of those old 18MP sensors, but seems like I am wrong. ???


----------



## midluk (Oct 8, 2015)

Chaitanya said:


> At that price of 300$ there is no point in getting a P&S anymore. Plus need be one can easily use all the EF/EF-S lenses with their adaptor.
> 
> on a serious side note: I though canon had run out of those old 18MP sensors, but seems like I am wrong. ???


300$ is the lens alone, no price given for the kit. But this definitely seems to be more a P&S replacement than a DSLR replacement.

Perhaps they have forgotten about a machine that was running producing those sensors and now they have a heap of them


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 8, 2015)

Chaitanya said:


> lw said:
> 
> 
> > specs now leaked
> ...



Where does it say that it is $300? See red text above. That's a lens price.

- A


----------



## hachu21 (Oct 8, 2015)

Chaitanya said:


> At that price of 300$ there is no point in getting a P&S anymore. Plus need be one can easily use all the EF/EF-S lenses with their adaptor.
> 
> on a serious side note: I though canon had run out of those old 18MP sensors, but seems like I am wrong. ???



From Canon Watch :
The price for the double kit will be $849.99, the EF-M 15-45mm IS STM will sell at $299.99.

Two things to note: 1) the moniker EOS M10 suggests a new mirrorless line-up by Canon (entry-level line-up), 2) this is not the old Canon 18MP sensor of a few years ago. This is a new 18MP since it features Hybrid CMOS AF III.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Oct 8, 2015)

hachu21 said:


> Chaitanya said:
> 
> 
> > At that price of 300$ there is no point in getting a P&S anymore. Plus need be one can easily use all the EF/EF-S lenses with their adaptor.
> ...



1. So that might mean a $500 price for the M10 and kit lens. Hopefully that little zoom lens can prove it's worth $300 alone.

2. This new 18MP sensor may be the one going into the Rebel SL2 coming later this year.


----------



## hachu21 (Oct 8, 2015)

how many different APSC "modern"sensor so far?
- 7DmkII => 20MP dualpixel AF
- M3 / 750D / 760D =>24MP Hybrid III
- M10 => 18MP Hybrid III

unclear or what?


----------



## MintChocs (Oct 8, 2015)

Chaitanya said:


> lw said:
> 
> 
> > specs now leaked
> ...


There is no way they can run out of those 18mp sensors. It's going to take 18 years to finish the stockpile. LOL 
I would imagine the version being used has more AF points but overall the same image performance. The target market doesn't know anything about sensor tech and probably shoot JPEG.


----------



## Tugela (Oct 8, 2015)

I guess someone in marketing pointed out the obvious negative implications of calling it the M0, even though that name would be accurate


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Oct 8, 2015)

hachu21 said:


> how many different APSC "modern"sensor so far?
> - 7DmkII => 20MP dualpixel AF
> - M3 / 750D / 760D =>24MP Hybrid III
> - M10 => 18MP Hybrid III
> ...



How is it unclear?  The entry level EOS cameras get the new Hybrid AF III sensors while the "prosumer" ones like the 70D and 7D Mark II get Duel Pixel AF. I'm hoping Canon adds a new version of their duel pixel sensors to a "pro" version of the EOS M sometime in the future.


----------



## iron-t (Oct 8, 2015)

15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 seems like just a terrible lens. Limited zoom range AND extremely dim at the "long" end. On APS-C you're already on your way to substantial diffraction at f/6.3. Must be a design compromise to achieve ultimate pocketability. No thanks, Canon. Much prefer my iPhone 6+ for pocket camera duty and will go ahead and haul the 5D3 when IQ/AF are priorities.


----------



## Maximilian (Oct 8, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> ... looks like a step _downmarket_ rather than upmarket. This isn't the droid we're looking for...


Hi ahsanford! 
Hi to all other! 

Not reading through all other comments I'll make it short:

Let's hope that this "downmarket" product will cause Canon such a great success and market share that they will feel the ultimate urge to give these potentional "upmarket" consumers a real killer upmarket EOS-M that'll fullfill "our" needs (whatever you define as your needs).
Maybe in late 2016 but I'll expect 2017 at the earliest.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 8, 2015)

iron-t said:


> 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 seems like just a terrible lens. Limited zoom range AND extremely dim at the "long" end. On APS-C you're already on your way to substantial diffraction at f/6.3. Must be a design compromise to achieve ultimate pocketability. No thanks, Canon. Much prefer my iPhone 6+ for pocket camera duty and will go ahead and haul the 5D3 when IQ/AF are priorities.



Disagree. Kit zooms are typically around 3x for the FL multiplier, and Canon just (wisely) shifted the 3x to the wider side of things. A 15mm crop wide end (24mm FF equivalent) is an improvement for the tourist who can't get the entire cathedral, mountain, etc. in frame with the 18-55. Back in my rebel kit days, I was much more frustrated the 18 was not wide enough far more than the 55 was not long enough, so I see this as a positive change.

And a Canon crop sensor behind even the most inexpensive kit lens will still mop the floor with a fixed aperture, non-optically zooming iPhone 6+. Even my old T1i takes better shots than my 6+ does. The 6+ is a wonderful camera, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't remotely stack up to a crop SLR.

- A


----------



## Nininini (Oct 8, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> A 15mm crop wide end (24mm FF equivalent) is an improvement for the tourist who can't get the entire cathedral, mountain, etc. in frame with the 18-55.



These people would be much better off buying an A6000 with an actual viewfinder, a hotshoe, a better lens, and an actual grip. A 15-45 is not a convenient carry round lens. 

I have a hard time understanding the audience for this camera too. Very expensive, weird focal range for a kit lens, no viewfinder, no hotshoe, only 18MP, same horrible mount adapter that makes EF-S lenses focus super slowly. No grip, have fun mounting expensive EF-S lenses and dropping them when this 300gram thing tips over. 

Who is the audience for this thing. Suckers?


----------



## Nininini (Oct 8, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> And a Canon crop sensor behind even the most inexpensive kit lens will still mop the floor with a fixed aperture, non-optically zooming iPhone 6+.



Every dedicated camera mops the floor with a smartphone, that's not exactly an achievement, it's the point of the device. If a camera maker can't take better pictures than a smartphone maker, you should close shop.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Oct 8, 2015)

Nininini said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > A 15mm crop wide end (24mm FF equivalent) is an improvement for the tourist who can't get the entire cathedral, mountain, etc. in frame with the 18-55.
> ...



This is an entry level mirrorless camera targeted at an audience wanting to upgrade from their cell phone camera or a small sensor P&S. The 15-45mm IS STM pancake zoom lens makes the combo pocketable and less intimidating to the audience its targeted at. Canon is doing what it should have done from the beginning with the EOS M line, making multiple EOS M bodies to appeal to different audiences . Hopefully a "pro" M body will come soon as well as some more EF-M primes.


----------



## Nininini (Oct 8, 2015)

Sibir Lupus said:


> This is an entry level mirrorless camera targeted at an audience wanting to upgrade from their cell phone camera or a small sensor P&S.



Makes no sense, there are plenty of better cameras out there, with an actual viewfinder, grip and hotshoe.

Sony A6000, Panasonic GX7, etc. 

Even P&S like all of Panasonic's newest Lumix, feature a GRIP+VIEWFINDER.

It's a bare minimum nowadays.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Oct 8, 2015)

Nininini said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > A 15mm crop wide end (24mm FF equivalent) is an improvement for the tourist who can't get the entire cathedral, mountain, etc. in frame with the 18-55.
> ...



The A6000 isn't an entry level mirrorless. And if that "better lens" you're referring to is the Sony 16-50mm power zoom lens then that may not be true. Reviews has said it has vignetting and barrel distortion which when shot in RAW are far worse due to the lens correction profile not being applied. Only time will tell if Canon was able to overcome those issues with their EF-M 15-45mm lens.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Oct 8, 2015)

Nininini said:


> Sibir Lupus said:
> 
> 
> > This is an entry level mirrorless camera targeted at an audience wanting to upgrade from their cell phone camera or a small sensor P&S.
> ...



The Panasonic GX7 was not a roughly $500 camera when it came out, so again not an entry level mirrorless. Also, the GX7/GX8 and that Lumix have smaller sensors so an EVF was possible to add even though that Lumix EVF looks tiny. I do agree that they should have at least put some sort of grip on the front of the M10 though. The M10 looks to be even smaller then the M2 so the fact that Canon was able to add a popup flash to the M10 is a wonder in itself.


----------



## scrup (Oct 8, 2015)

The thing about the M line is that it appeals to existing to Canon users. They can use existing lens and equipment. But they dumbed this thing down that no existing Canon user would wanna buy this thing unless its sold at firesale prices. 

The only positive is that canon is now taking mirrorless seriously. At this rate, we might see a full frame mirrorless in 5 years.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 8, 2015)

Oh well, so now we got two overpriced entry level M's. :

" ... Going forward, and this would be a repeat of what I said before, but we will put more effort into mirrorless, and also, naturally, we will continue to expand the EF-M lens group. In the very near future, I think that Canon will come out with a mirrorless camera that you would really like."
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/09/16/canon-maeda-promises-eos-m-enthusiasts-more-aps-c-lenses-new-printers

If masaya maeda truly believes any of us would "really like" this M10 ... then Canon is in even deeper sh*t than i thought possible. I really thought he was hinting at a higher end M body. Maybe even competitive with fuji xt1, samsung NX-1 and sony a6000.


----------



## ablearcher (Oct 8, 2015)

I seriously don't get it. Whoever wanted to get a basic Canon mirrorless has already bought M, M2 and/or M3. For everyone else there is plenty of choice with good pricing. I bet those with Canon glass would've been more impressed with a more sophisticated body from Canon. I was expecting a flagship body and a price drop for current M3 (moving it to a more affordable category). Even being loaded with Canon glass, with $500 USD pricing for new M10, I'd rather look at a6000 with an adapter for my travel needs. IMO, a commitment to mirorrless platform would've been more convincing with a cutting edge prosumer body challenging tech from Sony and Samsung, rather than this unimpressive pocket weight.


----------



## crashpc (Oct 8, 2015)

Scrup: absolutely agree on that.
As a Canon user, I'm looking for even smaller and lighter device than original M, but continuing in that line, maintaining certain qualities and getting something new with new body. That should be obvious to Canon, that there is good amount of people like this.

BUT fully plastic body, no hotshoe, and "that old sensor" even when it's good enaugh, it's clearly trolling from Canon side. Sad and pathetic. I hope that the rumor is false.


----------



## H. Jones (Oct 8, 2015)

iron-t said:


> 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 seems like just a terrible lens. Limited zoom range AND extremely dim at the "long" end.



Not quite sure what you mean by limited zoom range-- the 15-45mm on 1.6x crop is 24-70mm. Sure, 55mm would have been even better on a crop lens, but I'm good with a 70mm equivalent. Plus, a 24mm equivalent is such an improvement over 29/30mm. 

My 24-70mm F/2.8 II is fantastic when I'm arriving on the scene of an emergency a and I'm not sure what to expect. It's been a great focal length for me, and I could totally see myself getting an M3 and a 15-45mm to throw in my glove compartment just in case I find myself in the middle of breaking news and don't have any of my professional gear with me. Sure, f/6.3 is super dark, but I'm confident I could make pictures with it that were much better than my cellphone.


----------



## 9VIII (Oct 8, 2015)

I wonder if it's possible that the 18mp sensor used here actually isn't the older design.
If Canon were to put out a new 18MP sensor that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, and it could even be argued that they should have a 12MP option.

I still want a 50MP APS-C body, but there's room for both.


----------



## Haydn1971 (Oct 9, 2015)

Moan moan moan - what a miserable bunch many of you are !

M10 + 15-45mm lens shows range expansion = good news that Canon has confidence in the EOS-M system, which translates to further products as the months move on - we are currently at a pace of a new lens each year, let's hope that picks up to a couple or three a year over the next few years along with a wider range of Camera products.

Good news in my eyes


----------



## Luds34 (Oct 9, 2015)

I like the name too. Kind of following both Canon's own higher number is a lower end model and the likes of Olympus (OMD EM10, 5, 1) and Fuji(X-T10 and X-T1). Would nice to see the current M3 model (midrange) become a M5 and then maybe a top of the line with built in EVF, DPAF would beomce the M1.

Like others I laugh at the thought of somewhere in a Canon wearhouse there are millions of 18mp APS-C sensors just looking for a home.


----------



## dufflover (Oct 9, 2015)

How does this actually compare to the original EOS-M that a lot of us bought (and only would've ever bought lol) at the fire sale prices? Same sensor and AF performance?
And yes they probably have just chucked in an older sensor where there are probably thousands upon thousands of them just sitting around .


----------



## SeppOz (Oct 9, 2015)

Is anyone aware of any Canon 18mp sensor that supports Hybrid AF III? If not, this may well be a new sensor if 18mp is true. Hopefully some other improvements as well.


----------



## Zv (Oct 9, 2015)

I guess it's good Canon are creating two lines for the M class. One for entry level and presumably that leaves them another to persue a higher spec body in the future. Perhaps the M4 will be FF or not but at least there are options. 

Now this M10 model does seems perplexing at first. The specs seem same as M1 or M2 but it looks like it's got the updated AF of the M3. If I'm honest that is all I ever wanted from the M in the first place. A small mirroless camera that I could chuck in a bag and take to parties to snap a few pics - something a step up from my iPhone. The M1 is so damn slow to AF it is useless for people shots unless they sit absolutely still. This thing could be just the ticket if the price is right. 

That new lens looks promising too. I remain optimistic!


----------



## hkingman (Oct 9, 2015)

Is this the ultimate freelensing machine? So cheap, it's almost disposable, yet sporting a full APS sensor without too much pixel density. 

Pair it with either of canon's cheap pancakes, the EF-S 24 or EF-40, plus Canon's awesome $50 EOS-M to EF adapter (6098B002WB). This setup is nice because it fits so well in your hand, plus great lengths for portraits. Don't bother with the 22/2...too small. 

Set manual focus and f2.8, go into C.fn and allow shutter release with no lens. Power off, remove lens, power on... enjoy your poor man's tilt-shift...! 

Personally, I like the light leak effect, but use a chopped-off neoprene lens case around it if you don't. Darn, my EOS-M1 is at work or I could post a pic or two.


----------



## Pompo (Oct 9, 2015)

another price of junk that nobody wants...what about serious mirrorless bodies?


----------



## drob (Oct 9, 2015)

I'm a happy Canon user and recently bought a used, cheap Olympus DSLR to trade in during the Samsung Ditch the DSLR event. Got a NX500 (28 megapixels) mirrorless and let me tell you it's pretty sweet. Yes it does have some limitations but overall it's small and fun to play around with. To get DSLR-like quality in such a small, light, and portable package is priceless. But again, there are draw backs and I'd never give up my 6D. However, if Canon wants in on this market, they have to bring a product that's viable. This lame 18mp afterthought seems like it's destined to sink from the start. They need to bring a product that's innovative and fresh. Same holds for their DSLRs...bring something fresh and innovative instead of just barely one-upping the competition. Canon needs to hire Sigma's boss to light the fire.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 9, 2015)

Looks like the Chick is being trashed before it is being hatched. The M (all models) has its place. They are not pro cameras. They are not sports camera. They are not super mirrorless. But they got the job done( may be AF speed is not up to some peoples standard). They are small and light. That makes them an excellent travel camera. With the 22mm f2.0,the M1 and M2 are small enough to fit into a loose dress pant or sport coat. That make it a good camera for event that you do not want to bring the DSLR. The picture quality is acceptable at ISO 1600. For the people that keep on trashing the M's, I am wondering how many of them have actually owned or used one.


----------



## drob (Oct 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Looks like the Chick is being trashed before it is being hatched. The M (all models) has its place. They are not pro cameras. They are not sports camera. They are not super mirrorless. But they got the job done( may be AF speed is not up to some peoples standard). They are small and light. That makes them an excellent travel camera. With the 22mm f2.0,the M1 and M2 are small enough to fit into a loose dress pant or sport coat. That make it a good camera for event that you do not want to bring the DSLR. The picture quality is acceptable at ISO 1600. For the people that keep on trashing the M's, I am wondering how many of them have actually owned or used one.


But who wants "acceptable"? Who wants a half-arse product? IF Canon is going to introduce a mirrorless system, why wouldn't you want it to compete with other mirrorless systems? Why release an afterthought?


----------



## Rocky (Oct 9, 2015)

drob said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like the Chick is being trashed before it is being hatched. The M (all models) has its place. They are not pro cameras. They are not sports camera. They are not super mirrorless. But they got the job done( may be AF speed is not up to some peoples standard). They are small and light. That makes them an excellent travel camera. With the 22mm f2.0,the M1 and M2 are small enough to fit into a loose dress pant or sport coat. That make it a good camera for event that you do not want to bring the DSLR. The picture quality is acceptable at ISO 1600. For the people that keep on trashing the M's, I am wondering how many of them have actually owned or used one.
> ...


SIZE is the key word. If we want the Canon mirrorless to be a super model, wit EVF, tilting screen etc. It will not be pocketatable. I am totally for a super mirrorless from Canon that has everything plus the kitchen sink. But the M's have its place as a pocketable APS-C mirrorless


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 9, 2015)

drob said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like the Chick is being trashed before it is being hatched. The M (all models) has its place. They are not pro cameras. They are not sports camera. They are not super mirrorless. But they got the job done( may be AF speed is not up to some peoples standard). They are small and light. That makes them an excellent travel camera. With the 22mm f2.0,the M1 and M2 are small enough to fit into a loose dress pant or sport coat. That make it a good camera for event that you do not want to bring the DSLR. The picture quality is acceptable at ISO 1600. For the people that keep on trashing the M's, I am wondering how many of them have actually owned or used one.
> ...



+100 Exactly they way I see it. 

Btw: i do have the M1 plus all current EF-M lenses plus EF/M adapter for my EF glass. And I am at about 20.000 shutter actuations on that M. It is my outdoor gear - hiking, mountaineering, ski touring, skiing, city trips, walk in the park, and all situations were large cameras are "unwanted or suspicious". For (indoor) events i find it almost useless because AF in poor light is just a pain. Outdoors it is a struggle to see anything on the LCD in bright sunlight/reflections. But it is cheap and small and IQ in good light is fine.

I have been waiting for and would buy a higher end M with EVF and good AF any day. But Canon has judt kept releasing one half-assed M / M2 / M3 after the other. And now an even lower M10. Quite disappointing.


----------



## drob (Oct 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> drob said:
> 
> 
> > Rocky said:
> ...



I'm not a big mirrorless guy and have never been tempted by EOS-M (mainly due to it's lackluster features) but after playing around with the Samsung NX500 (originally 799 but now $599 on sale) for a few days I can see that these are pretty feature rich devices. It is not 100% pocketable with the 18-50 lens but with a 20 or 30mm pancake it would be no problem to toss it in a pocket. With the NX500 out there and others with innovative features, why would one even consider 18mp? Seems like a step back. I know we don't have a complete spec list but generally Canon always under-wows us.


----------



## waelelgendy (Oct 9, 2015)

From my point of view, this is a smart move from Canon, if it will be introduced at a cheap price. Regular P&S market is almost dead, as phone cameras are doing a pretty good job in covering most of the consumers daily needs from a pocket camera. With cameras like the M10 and the G9, Canon is providing this market with attractive pocketable decently priced camera options that are far exceeding phone cameras in terms of image quality and performance, still they're small in size and pocketable. The introduction of the M10 will also give the M3 successor the chance to go a bit up and be competing with cameras like Sony's A6000 for example. To compete with high end APS-C mirrorless cameras, Canon already have the SL1 line. The SL1 is not a mirrorless camera, but I don't think anyone would care about that as long as it's fulfilling their needs, which I see the SL1 line is more than capable of.

With the M10, an upgrade model of the M3, and an upgrade model of the SL1, Canon will be already in a good position in the CSC market.


----------



## 5D2-shooter (Oct 9, 2015)

I want a decent Canon mirrorless as a compact alternative to my 5D2. A few years back I gave up waiting and bought a Panasonic micro 4/3 model that was very cheap. I'm still not tempted to spend serious money on any of the Canon mirrorless launched so far. It's not so much the bodies - the spec of the M3 looks pretty good apart from the inadequate autofocus - it's the lenses. Apart from the 22mm/2 they are hopeless. The zooms are bulky and the new ones only open up as far as f6.3. FFS - I don't want to have to use 800 ISO in reasonable light to get a reasonable exposure and avoid blur of moving subjects. Back in FD days I had a decent quality zoom that opened up to f4. If they can't release zooms that are reasonably compact and open up to f4 or wider let's have some a wider range of primes - preferably no wider than f2 so they are compact.


----------



## Takingshots (Oct 9, 2015)

A pocketable camera but why not consider a phone. Some phones take good pictures are as good as some of the cameras on the market...


----------



## SeppOz (Oct 9, 2015)

waelelgendy said:


> From my point of view, this is a smart move from Canon, if it will be introduced at a cheap price. Regular P&S market is almost dead, as phone cameras are doing a pretty good job in covering most of the consumers daily needs from a pocket camera. With cameras like the M10 and the G9, Canon is providing this market with attractive pocketable decently priced camera options that are far exceeding phone cameras in terms of image quality and performance, still they're small in size and pocketable. The introduction of the M10 will also give the M3 successor the chance to go a bit up and be competing with cameras like Sony's A6000 for example. To compete with high end APS-C mirrorless cameras, Canon already have the SL1 line. The SL1 is not a mirrorless camera, but I don't think anyone would care about that as long as it's fulfilling their needs, which I see the SL1 line is more than capable of.
> 
> With the M10, an upgrade model of the M3, and an upgrade model of the SL1, Canon will be already in a good position in the CSC market.



+1
Canon may well sell a lot of these to those who want something better than a phone, but still compact enough and low cost. Zoom range wider and longer than typical phone, pop up flash, and option of a small tele-zoom. Good way to get entry level customers into ILCs.
Wonder if they keep/restore the 3x centre crop video mode of the M2 that the M3 lacks. Will also be interesting to see how the AF performs given that the M3's version of Hybrid AF III has a few quirks.
Not what I am after (would really like a higher performing model than the M3) with the existing Ms, but makes sense for Canon.


----------



## bainsybike (Oct 9, 2015)

Vivid Color said:


> It doesn't seem to have a hotshoe. That's really too bad.



From the line visible on the top plate right of centre of the image, it looks as though it might have a built-in flash. If the specs are correct it's heavier than the original M, itself a pretty solid piece of kit. A flash might be the reason why.


----------



## lw (Oct 9, 2015)

bainsybike said:


> Vivid Color said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't seem to have a hotshoe. That's really too bad.
> ...



Not that it is important for the target market perhaps, but without a hotshoe there will be no way to trigger a remote flash. The M3's built in flash doesn't support wireless flash, so every reason to suspect that this won't either


----------



## jasny (Oct 9, 2015)

SeppOz said:


> Wonder if they keep/restore the 3x centre crop video mode of the M2 that the M3 lacks.


Don't think so. With Hybrid III there are simply too many "holes in the image" (masked pixels for autofocus; you can even spot them on the sensor or while processing RAW in special way).


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 9, 2015)

5D2-shooter said:


> ... - it's the lenses. Apart from the 22mm/2 they are hopeless. The zooms are bulky and the new ones only open up as far as f6.3. FFS - I don't want to have to use 800 ISO in reasonable light to get a reasonable exposure and avoid blur of moving subjects. Back in FD days I had a decent quality zoom that opened up to f4. If they can't release zooms that are reasonably compact and open up to f4 or wider let's have some a wider range of primes - preferably no wider than f2 so they are compact.



For 15-45 it is wait and see ... reviews. 
As far as the currently available EF-M lenses go, I have to strongly disagree. Got all 4 in active use and find all of them remarkably good, compact and excellent value. Speed/max. aperture is of course limited by size and weight - miracles in optics/physics are rare. 
* 11-22: best IQ and most compact APS-C UWW zoom currently on the market 
* 22/2: excellent IQ and smallest lens of its kind (with AF) on the market and very low cost 
* 18-55: best APS-C kit zoom currently on the market; smaller than EF-S STM equivalent
* 55-200: surprisingly good and compact; way smaller, lighter and better than e.g. Fuji 50-230 [f/6.7 btw!] 

overall Canon EF-M lens lineup is really good. With only 4 lenses focal lengths between 11 and 200mm are covered. Anything beyond that would either be really big and/or really expensive. An EF-M 18-135 / 3.5-5.6 may be missing for some and for me a compact portrait tele like an EF-M 80/2.0 IS STM please. 

For similar optical performance or larger aperture primes you'll pay an arm and a leg at Fuji or Zeiss Touit. And those lenses are larger/heavier ... of course. Mainly for those who still want aperture rings and distance scale windows and similar analogue cruft. Most Sony E-mount (APS-C) lenses including some with "Zeiss badge" do not offer comparable IQ and are - of course - not smaller either. AGain optiocal miracles are rare ... more often they turn out to a mirage. 

What I am waiting for is a high end M body. Built-in OVF, better AF system, better battery life, and overall size not larger than M3.


----------



## hachu21 (Oct 9, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> An EF-M 18-135 / 3.5-5.6 may be missing for some



Tamron already filled this gap with his EF-M 18-200 f/3.5-6.3


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 9, 2015)

lw said:


> Not that it is important for the target market perhaps, but without a hotshoe there will be no way to trigger a remote flash. The M3's built in flash doesn't support wireless flash, so every reason to suspect that this won't either



Canon could simply stick a tiny RT radio flash transmitter into any camera called EOS ... and call it a day. 8)


----------



## lw (Oct 9, 2015)

More images at

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://digicame-info.com/

not a pancake zoom - more like the 11-22, semi-collapsible.
Needs the room to house the IS


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Oct 9, 2015)

lw said:


> More images at
> 
> https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://digicame-info.com/
> 
> ...



Just saw this from DPReview. Good to see that they left the flip screen from the M3 and gave it a popup flash. Sort of resembles the G7X with an interchangeable lens mount . As for the EF-M 15-45mm, I was hoping it would be about as small as the EF-M 22mm F2. But then that would have meant no manual focus ring. Seeing that it is a bit bigger, I'm hoping Canon didn't have to make the same optical compromises that Sony made on their 16-50mm power zoom lens.


----------



## ashmadux (Oct 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Looks like the Chick is being trashed before it is being hatched. The M (all models) has its place. They are not pro cameras. They are not sports camera. They are not super mirrorless. But they got the job done( may be AF speed is not up to some peoples standard). They are small and light. That makes them an excellent travel camera. With the 22mm f2.0,the M1 and M2 are small enough to fit into a loose dress pant or sport coat. That make it a good camera for event that you do not want to bring the DSLR. The picture quality is acceptable at ISO 1600. For the people that keep on trashing the M's, I am wondering how many of them have actually owned or used one.




(Looks at massive collection of personal images created with m1, giggles at the naysayers)

I dont mind complaints about making a product better, but sheesh these guys in here go overboard. And like you said, most have never even touched one. Jokers.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 9, 2015)

hachu21 said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > An EF-M 18-135 / 3.5-5.6 may be missing for some
> ...



no. at least not anywhere near "acceptably well". 
That Tamron was plagued by major AF/firmware compatibility issues. And it is neither as compact nor in terms of IQ anywhere near the original Canon EF-M lenses.


----------



## Act444 (Oct 9, 2015)

I have the original M and it works well for what I use it for...but increasingly one of its biggest drawbacks for me is the lack of a flip screen. I got a chance to play around with the M3 and while I liked the added flexibility of its flip screen, it was noticeably bigger in size (and the AF didn't seem to be a big improvement). I'm in the minority but a large appeal of the original M to me was its small size. I already have my FF DSLRs if I'm going to carry around something larger...so if this new, smaller M10 has a flip screen, adds WiFi, retains the feature set of the original M, and has a reasonable price (< $500), I just might go for this one. Even with the lack of a hot shoe...if the flash has bounce capability, even better. 

I'm also intrigued by this new 15-45. My biggest frustration with the 18-55 is that I encounter numerous instances where 18 just isn't wide enough, especially when forced to hold the camera in front of me (further narrowing the FOV). However, it sucks that the 15-45 is only 6.3 at the long end (why?)...I hope the optics are at least on par with the 18-55. Nevertheless, If the M10/15-45 combo comes in at $500 or less, I just might "upgrade". (For some reason I think it'll be more though...)


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 9, 2015)

oh wow, first Canon EOS camera with a "direct phone" button. How very INNOVATIVE, Canon!  ;D






https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://digicame-info.com/


----------



## scyrene (Oct 9, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> lw said:
> 
> 
> > Not that it is important for the target market perhaps, but without a hotshoe there will be no way to trigger a remote flash. The M3's built in flash doesn't support wireless flash, so every reason to suspect that this won't either
> ...



I think some countries have restrictions on the sale and use of products containing radio transmitters, which is why they had to produce two versions of the 600EX(-RT) flash.


----------



## iron-t (Oct 9, 2015)

H. Jones said:


> iron-t said:
> 
> 
> > 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 seems like just a terrible lens. Limited zoom range AND extremely dim at the "long" end.
> ...



What I mean is that if I'm getting f/6.3 max aperture at the long end, I would expect the long end to be a bit longer than 45mm. The focal length itself isn't the problem--like you I use the 24-70mm f/2.8 II all the time. I use primes all the time too. But the last time I used any lens with a max aperture of f/6.3 it was an 18-200mm.


----------



## RobertG. (Oct 9, 2015)

It looks like a nice P&S with exchangeable lenses. With its tilt-screen it is even ready for selfies. Just price is below 500 EUR and it will become successful. For me it looks like the evolution of the PowerShot S120.


----------



## Mr_Canuck (Oct 9, 2015)

ablearcher said:


> Don't they already have like three entry/basic level models (M, M2, M3)?? I thought that Canon dude recently said that Canon will be coming up with a serious mirrorless body everyone is waiting for. Is that it? How more basic they wanna go?



Indeed.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 9, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> oh wow, first Canon EOS camera with a "direct phone" button. How very INNOVATIVE, Canon!  ;D
> 
> 
> 
> ...



BTW, the good folks at CanonWatch are alleging that the 15-45 lens is retractable. What on earth are they getting at? The pictures are already showing it in the most compact form, aren't they?

- A


----------



## crashpc (Oct 9, 2015)

Iron-t that is exactly why your 24-70 isn't pocketable. Physics. This "dim' lens still provides more light to the image sensor than what 1.8-2.8 lens from G16 does. Then you have more resolution, and the lens will be propanly significantly sharper than that one from G16. AAAAnd it will provide better image even on lower ISO speeds. I call that success, if it will be priced in G16 range, and it will compete with G7X. At base ISO speed, this one should still win, and then it should not loose. That's good position.


----------



## Mr_Canuck (Oct 9, 2015)

I'm going to sit and wait for Canon to either come up with better specified M cameras for the money they are asking, or for their existing late to the game M cameras to drop significantly in price. The M3 is a Sony a5000 from a few years back, but at twice to three times the price depending on US or Canada location. With four lenses available.

I'm super excited by the prospect of the 11-22 lens. It is the tiniest on the market for apsc. It would be a super setup for hiking. But they just need to at least catch up to the market with mirrorless. The M3 at $400 would be that, but it's a thousand bucks in Canada! They are way behind. They should be bundling the external EVF for free, not to mention the EF adapter, at better prices – in both US and Canada. I might just buy the 11-22 lens (which is cheaper in Canada go figure) and wait for either a new body or current M3 body at competitive price. I see the EVF included on the US canon site, so perhaps that is a start.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Oct 9, 2015)

Mr_Canuck said:


> I see the EVF included on the US canon site, so perhaps that is a start.



It is? I'm not seeing that on Canon's USA website on my end.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 9, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> BTW, the good folks at CanonWatch are alleging that the 15-45 lens is retractable. What on earth are they getting at? The pictures are already showing it in the most compact form, aren't they?



Yes. The image here shows the lens in "parking position". It is the same construction as in the EF-M 11-22. i like having a compact collapsed parking position - it saves space in the bag. To use the lenses you have to unlock the söiding switch and turn the zoom ring - tubus will extend and lens is ready for image capture. It is one quick twist.


----------



## MJ (Oct 9, 2015)

9VIII said:


> I still wish they would sell a round camera body the same size as the back cap.
> It would turn pancake lenses into pancake cameras (at lest EF-M, EF lenses would be more of a hamburger camera), it would be great for most macro work on a tripod (where the less you touch the camera the better) and it would let the 400f5.6 fit in a water bottle pouch.




LOOOOOOOLLL! 

that is one wicked comment!


----------



## bf (Oct 9, 2015)

There are folks who don't show up in forums. We don't know them but canon does. This camera is for them.


----------



## iron-t (Oct 9, 2015)

crashpc said:


> Iron-t that is exactly why your 24-70 isn't pocketable. Physics. This "dim' lens still provides more light to the image sensor than what 1.8-2.8 lens from G16 does. Then you have more resolution, and the lens will be propanly significantly sharper than that one from G16. AAAAnd it will provide better image even on lower ISO speeds. I call that success, if it will be priced in G16 range, and it will compete with G7X. At base ISO speed, this one should still win, and then it should not loose. That's good position.



I understand the physical limitations well enough. It's no surprise the 24-70 won't fit in my pocket. If you look at the profile shot of the M10, it looks like it won't be pocketable either but rather, similar to the M1 plus 18-55mm, maybe small enough to go in an overcoat pocket.

There are plenty of small zooms that feature a max aperture of f/5.6 at the long end, or feature a long end longer than 45mm. That is why this kit lens seems like a step in the wrong direction.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 9, 2015)

iron-t said:


> I understand the physical limitations well enough.
> 
> There are plenty of small zooms that feature a max aperture of f/5.6 at the long end, or feature a long end longer than 45mm. That is why this kit lens seems like a step in the wrong direction.



Do you? What are the physical dimensions of those 'plenty of small zooms' compared to the M15-45? I presume you're talking about lenses designed for an APS-C sensor (vs. m4/3, since the former has a 46% larger sensor).


----------



## Tinky (Oct 10, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> iron-t said:
> 
> 
> > I understand the physical limitations well enough.
> ...



how come they could manage to make compact superzooms covering 135 formats 20 years ago?
thinking of camera like the olympus mju, ricoh rz's etc...


----------



## weixing (Oct 10, 2015)

Hi,


Tinky said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > iron-t said:
> ...


 But they are not interchangeable lens... no zoom ring and etc... also, I'm sure the IQ of those super compact lens is not up to today standard.

To quickly come out will a better spec M mirrorless camera, may be Canon should just:
Take a 70D and remove the mirrorbox, prism, OVF and install an EVF. Redesign a smaller outer case (which probably mean smaller battery and not so good weather resistance) with an EOS M mount. Modified the firmware to do only live view related shooting only and instead of display on the rear LCD, display it on the EVF first. ;D

Have a nice day.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Oct 10, 2015)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Tinky said:
> ...



That...and my Olympus Stylus (aka mju) film camera with a 38-80mm zoom was f/8.9 at the long end, and the similar 38-140mm zoom was *f/11* at the long end. 

Thanks for providing a nice example of why the M15-45 is f/6.3 at the long end...seems pretty fast compared to f/11, not to mention the IQ.


----------



## dufflover (Oct 10, 2015)

I don't know if the physics will allow it but a longer FL pancake would be nice, say 40mm to 50mm as an alternative to the 22mm. Might be tough as the whole premise of pancakes is the simplistic design for a given flange distance.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 10, 2015)

dufflover said:


> I don't know if the physics will allow it but a longer FL pancake would be nice, say 40mm to 50mm as an alternative to the 22mm. Might be tough as the whole premise of pancakes is the simplistic design for a given flange distance.



An EF-M 40/2.8 should be smaller than the combination of (fulframe-capable)EF 40/2.8 + adapter ... a native APS-C, short flange back EF-M 40/1.8 IS STM should be quite compact, albeit longer/larger than 22/2.0. and a EF-M 50/1.8 IS STM should not be larger than the EF 50/1.8 ... 2 factors involved: flange distance difference and size of image circle ... might just offset each other. But just a wild guess. 

I would love to get an ultra-compact EF-M 80/2.0 IS STM ... Most likely not possible as a "true pancake" - but size up to 18-55 kitzoom would still be fine with me.


----------



## ChristopherMarkPerez (Oct 10, 2015)

Indeed. It will be interesting to see how Canon does with their new device.

In the four years I've been watching what casual tourists and serious photographers carry by way of imaging tools on the streets of Paris, the shift from DSLR to mirrorless seems nearly complete. Gone seem to be the Days of the DSLR. Sony and Olympus are the marques of choice from the looks of things. 

[snark]I've seen only one EOS-M in all this time. But... price and name might get Canon back into the game, right? Afterall, Canon told us they were going to be Number One in the mirrorless marketplace. I'll bet they know something we don't.[/snark]




rs said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Yep. I'm seeing chatter of this being a 'Baby EOS-M'. Yikes. Downmarket it is.
> ...


----------



## ChristopherMarkPerez (Oct 10, 2015)

Simple optical physics says a 50mm lens measures 50mm's from the first optical element to imaging plane (film or sensor, it doesn't matter which). That's just under 2 inches. Is that pancake enough?

In the days of DSLRs with their mirrorboxes, (slightly) inverted telephoto designs meant the length from front to back of a lens could be rather long. In these cases, complex optical designs mean that the position of the first element is many times well beyond 50mm's. 



dufflover said:


> I don't know if the physics will allow it but a longer FL pancake would be nice, say 40mm to 50mm as an alternative to the 22mm. Might be tough as the whole premise of pancakes is the simplistic design for a given flange distance.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 10, 2015)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Simple optical physics says a 50mm lens measures 50mm's from the first optical element to imaging plane (film or sensor, it doesn't matter which). That's just under 2 inches. Is that pancake enough?
> 
> In the days of DSLRs with their mirrorboxes, (slightly) inverted telephoto designs meant the length from front to back of a lens could be rather long. In these cases, complex optical designs mean that the position of the first element is many times well beyond 50mm's.



Well, i would certainly expect a potential EF-M 50/1.8 IS STM to be closer in size to the EF 50/1.8 STM (l=39.3mm, dia=69.2, filter 49mm) than to a Zeiss Otus. 
Question is, whether the reduced image circle (EF is full frame, M only APS-C) would allow an optical design that offsets the size impact stemming from difference in flange distance. Don't know, but hope it would be possible. Those advanced optical design apps are pretty powerful today.


----------



## Haydn1971 (Oct 10, 2015)

weixing said:


> To quickly come out will a better spec M mirrorless camera, may be Canon should just: Take a 70D and remove the mirrorbox, prism, OVF and install an EVF. Redesign a smaller outer case (which probably mean smaller battery and not so good weather resistance) with an EOS M mount. Modified the firmware to do only live view related shooting only and instead of display on the rear LCD, display it on the EVF first.



The sensor is in a different place on a EOS-M camera compared to an EOS camera - this is to accommodate the movement of the mirror. I see mirrorless going two ways with Canon, a DSLR sized mirrorless product using the EF mount (sensor in the same place, big space inside wasted), this will come soon and I fully expect this to be a higher end product, using a full frame sensor tech as a sample of high end EVF and other showcase technologies - whatever they may be, with a focus on both photography and 4k video. I also see a continuation of the EOS-M range, where we now have the cheap entry level "SL1" M10, we also have the "750/760D" in the M3, which will no doubt continue to add features in line with the "rebel" lines... I see also a higher end "80D/7DII" in a package not unlike the Fuji X-T1, at which point we shall start seeing greater expansion of the EF-M lens range, to include faster zooms and expand the choice of primes to something more conventional than the pancake.


----------



## crashpc (Oct 10, 2015)

I still don´t get the display part of this camera. Look at how thick and wide is LCD assembly, then look at top view of all Canon cams made that way, and then look at leaked images of M10 - top view.
Does it make sense to you?
Tried to compare if the display size is adequate and the image isn´t fake, and it seems all valid dimensions wise.


----------



## okaro (Oct 10, 2015)

iron-t said:


> I understand the physical limitations well enough. It's no surprise the 24-70 won't fit in my pocket. If you look at the profile shot of the M10, it looks like it won't be pocketable either but rather, similar to the M1 plus 18-55mm, maybe small enough to go in an overcoat pocket.



I measured from the photo that the lens would be about 42 millimeters long. That would be 19 mm shorter than the 18-55 and right between 22 mm and the 18-55 mm. Maybe it does not go easily into a pocket but if worn on the neck under the coat it won't show up too much. As to the speed the difference between f/5,6 and f/6,3 is 1/3 stop, not a huge one. 

Is there a tripod mount on the side of the body? For portrait videos?


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 10, 2015)

Pop-up evf would be nice. I like how Canon try to keep body style small.


----------



## Khufu (Oct 10, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> ChristopherMarkPerez said:
> 
> 
> > Simple optical physics says a 50mm lens measures 50mm's from the first optical element to imaging plane (film or sensor, it doesn't matter which). That's just under 2 inches. Is that pancake enough?
> ...



Sony work with the same flange distance as Canon and a LARGER sensor/image plane; anything they have out there already obviously works... and they have fantastic, stabilised 50mm and thirty-something-mm (30? 35?) Prime lenses for their nx/a system... These things make for extremely professional looking video footage from a tiny system - unfortunately Canon don't offer the leses and Sony don't offer the mic jack on their affordable/smaller models... But damn, their 50mm OSS 1.8 shoots great footage! I'm desperate for something similar to pair with my EOS M2 - the greatest of the EOS M bodies  

EDIT:
The Sony NEX thing I have also doesnt do the sensor crop thing, which is really amazing for "macro" video at the 55mm end of the kit lens on the M2... I imagine you'd get great footage of more distant things with 3x crop of a stabilised 50mm 1.8...


----------



## mrsfotografie (Oct 11, 2015)

bf said:


> There are folks who don't show up in forums. We don't know them but canon does. This camera is for them.



+1 well said.


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 11, 2015)

mrsfotografie said:


> bf said:
> 
> 
> > There are folks who don't show up in forums. We don't know them but canon does. This camera is for them.
> ...



No. Those folks will not buy ANY camera for a grand or even for 699. they spend 299 or 349 max. Including kit zoom. That's the only reason why eg a powershot s120 is still sold new and shows up prominently in amazon sales rankings. At 179,- ... For thst target group canon msrp/pricing on "entry level" gear is totally off.

People willing to spend 899 or 1099 or more on a camera generally are well informed. They do their research up front on what new camera to buy, including use of forums like this one.


----------



## mrsfotografie (Oct 11, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> People willing to spend 899 or 1099 or more on a camera generally are well informed. They do their research up front on what new camera to buy, including use of forums like this one.



Please explain the popularity of the Panasonic 'Leica's' then ;D


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 11, 2015)

mrsfotografie said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > People willing to spend 899 or 1099 or more on a camera generally are well informed. They do their research up front on what new camera to buy, including use of forums like this one.
> ...



what "popularity"?  
Totally irrelevant minority. Probably less than 0,1% market share - no matter how its tallied. 

Of the many, many people with cameras I personally know, exactly one has (or had) some Leica/Pana V-Lux. And that specific person indeed has more money than photographic smarts.


----------



## mrsfotografie (Oct 11, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> .. And that specific person indeed has more money than photographic smarts.



;D LOL ;D


----------



## Shellbo6901 (Oct 11, 2015)

zim said:


> The G5X development looks more interesting



idk the technical or size needed, but if they could take the g5x or the g3x and make the lenses they have on them into detachable lenses, and then have the options for attaching other lenses, they could give buyers a much larger range to choose from(still getting the buyers that want the auto lenses and the buyers that want to choose their lenses). Even if it means the camera would have to be larger, as of now mirrorless cameras are small enough, so the mm here and there doesn't really matter, until something WAY smaller comes about.


----------



## crashpc (Oct 11, 2015)

Here we go. So it´s the same old sensor and old focusing. I´d call that a scam. Especially when you read that introducing text.


----------



## Zanken (Oct 13, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> People willing to spend 899 or 1099 or more on a camera generally are well informed. They do their research up front on what new camera to buy, including use of forums like this one.



My personal experience with beginners wanting to 'get serious' and get a 'real camera' system is that they're often prepared to spend up to a grand personally (admittedly AUD). The same people usually ignore my recommendations to buy something compact or second hand and go right for new entry-intermediate level SLR kits that they stop taking out of a few weeks because they are 'too bulky.'

Fuji and Sony are doing well dominating the aps-c mirrorless category on the premium end, perhaps Canon sees room in the market on the cheaper end.


----------



## iron-t (Oct 13, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> iron-t said:
> 
> 
> > I understand the physical limitations well enough.
> ...



Ah, yes, thanks for the condescending tone. Clearly my expression of preference and opinion were incorrect.


----------



## casperl (Oct 15, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> No. Those folks will not buy ANY camera for a grand or even for 699. they spend 299 or 349 max. Including kit zoom. That's the only reason why eg a powershot s120 is still sold new and shows up prominently in amazon sales rankings. At 179,- ... For thst target group canon msrp/pricing on "entry level" gear is totally off.
> 
> People willing to spend 899 or 1099 or more on a camera generally are well informed. They do their research up front on what new camera to buy, including use of forums like this one.



I currently live in Asia and I know way too many people having an A6000 or equivalent but don't even ever go out of auto mode... :


----------



## bf (Oct 16, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> mrsfotografie said:
> 
> 
> > bf said:
> ...


 Pricing seems high to me. On the other hand, M3 has debuted in the US with a $100 rebate and same can happen to M10.
One more, there are some folks who pay similarly or even more for compacts like G series. I don't know them either but they may be sold on the fact of having a larger sensor at such a small body. This time they get to know the product at best buy or target.


----------



## JoeAnimIDN (May 20, 2016)

Hah! You ask for appearance? I've already made one!
Why don't canon just copy a few design from EOS M3 and make the body Wider?
Wider body means that we have more space for EVF right next to flash. The screen? Still tiltable and of course the same size!
Other Possibilities if EVF was 360° Tiltable:
Our view is blocked by cable of Mic Jack
In the picture it shows if there's Headphone Jack, I hope they're exist on M4 body.

Why Wider Body?
If we can't put the EVF on the top and want to keep the selfie screen, Why don't we give more space for EVF and Function button?
Why Built In EVF?
For me, mirrorless is a camera that doesn't have mirror but still have Viewfinder! And soon we can race againts Sony, ah just kidding!

Who is Agree with my Canon EOS M4 BODY DESIGN?
I hope we can find way to tell canon that their mirrorless has sunk and I want to help them! (We)


----------



## Mikehit (May 20, 2016)

JoeAnimIDN said:


> Hah! You ask for appearance? I've already made one!
> Why don't canon just copy a few design from EOS M3 and make the body Wider?
> Wider body means that we have more space for EVF right next to flash. The screen? Still tiltable and of course the same size!
> Other Possibilities if EVF was 360° Tiltable:
> ...



Not sure about the propeller on the back. is it an integrated drone ? ;D


----------



## AvTvM (May 20, 2016)

Eeasier: just make it like Sony A6300 only with Canon EOS UI/firmware, a good thumbwheel in back and a frontwheel and a handgrip just large enough to house a LP-E6N battery.


----------

