# A budget EOS R body is coming in the first half of 2021 [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 2, 2020)

> The Canon EOS RP is currently the cheapest entry point for the EOS R system. It can currently be had for $999 USD.
> I have been told that Canon will introduce a new entry-level full-frame EOS R camera in the first half of 2021 and that it will come in under $999 USD.
> No specifications have been given, but you can likely expect the camera to omit things like an EVF to get costs down. Rumor has it that Sony will be doing a similar thing in the near future.
> More to come…



Continue reading...


----------



## Mark3794 (Sep 2, 2020)

Sub 999$ full frame camera... I hope they get rid of that 6D mark II sensor and i'll buy one the first day


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 2, 2020)

Full Frame, No EVF. Probably no ibis? Sounding like a compact-ish full frame M sounding thing. Cool


----------



## J9canon (Sep 2, 2020)

Any chance this will have IBIS? Hopefully, it still has uncropped 4K with DPAF. They need to release a nice pancake lens soon.


----------



## Bob Howland (Sep 2, 2020)

Sounds like the R system version of the M100/M200. Buy an EF-R adapter, a nifty 50 and/or one of the other smaller EF primes. Or maybe a 24-70 f/4


----------



## padam (Sep 2, 2020)

Perfect match for the 28-70/2


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 2, 2020)

Possibly:

Same sensor as RP or R (26 / 30mpx) because that should now be cheap enough.

DIgic X (or the Digic 9 from the M7?) capable of running animal eye AF with the older sensor.

FPS no different to the R/RP depending on which sensor used.

No IBIS

4K full width

Flash hotshoe compatible with the EFV-DC1/EVF-DC2 viewfinders.

LP-E17 battery 

Single UHS-II card slot

A new RF 24-80 f/4-5.6 kit lens


----------



## Kit. (Sep 2, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> Same sensor as RP or R (26 / 30mpx) because that should now be cheap enough.
> 
> DIgic X (or the Digic 9 from the M7?) capable of running animal eye AF with the older sensor.


I don't think the older sensor will be fast enough for that, but there's nothing wrong in reusing the 1DX III sensor again.


----------



## spomeniks (Sep 2, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> Sub 999$ full frame camera... I hope they get rid of that 6D mark II sensor and i'll buy one the first day


The fact they made the decision to put that sensor in the RP felt really rough. Doing it for the sake of having the cheapest full frame camera did not feel like a great move.


----------



## mangobutter (Sep 2, 2020)

This is EXACTLY what I want. TINY body (I MEAN TINY), NO EVF (we aren't in 1980 anymore, a 3" screen is superior to a 1" screen) and the R6 sensor. This would be the supreme leader of the Canon lineup, even vastly superior to the R5. Basically a full frame M6. Make it a flip up screen too, no flip OUT. Then offer a small pancake prime like 40-50mm 2.8. Take my MONEY ASAP.

a version w/ a recessed sensor and custom F2 lens (also recessed) would be HOT HOT HOT.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 2, 2020)

J9canon said:


> Any chance this will have IBIS? Hopefully, it still has uncropped 4K with DPAF. They need to release a nice pancake lens soon.


no way at $1K


----------



## amorse (Sep 2, 2020)

I wonder if this is the new rebel equivalent referenced previously as being a new certification. I could have sworn there was some discussion that people thought one of the two new certified bodies was a rebel equivalent because it had three variants, often referencing different naming schemes for different regions. 

Maybe one of those registrations was this camera and the other was the RF APS-C body. Moving entry level full frame below $1000 would certainly be something to talk about, but not quite a rebel price point I guess. 

Honestly though, I'd be potentially interested if the rumour was true. If it's small/light weight/cheap and even with no EVF, I could see it as a reasonable emergency backup body (depending on your shooting of course). I've done a lot of multi-day hiking with my 5DIV and have always kind of wanted a really small camera I can just throw into the bag as a backup in case the 5D goes over a cliff when I'm a few days travel from a camera store. Cheap/small/light makes it a great candidate for that, even without an EVF for me - I was really considering an M6+EF adapter for that role at one point.


----------



## mangobutter (Sep 2, 2020)

spomeniks said:


> The fact they made the decision to put that sensor in the RP felt really rough. Doing it for the sake of having the cheapest full frame camera did not feel like a great move.



Too many people cry about 6D2 sensor.. its not an issue. I was going over my Lightroom catalog yesterday that has over 200,000 photos from all kinds of cameras including the original EOS M with its super trashy 18mp sensor and the original 6D. The amount of clarity and supreme detail i was able to pull out of those files even at high ISO.. i was thinking... F those dynamic range arguments. WAY OVER BLOWN for real world scenarios. you'll almost never need that. It's nice to have but too many cry about it just cause youtubers cry about it. I was floored at how many beautiful EOS M (ORIGINAL) photos I could crank out.


----------



## mangobutter (Sep 2, 2020)

Do not need IBIS. Never have. We have great Canon engineering masterpieces with OIS built in. Like the RF 35. IBIS just makes things complicated, expensive, fragile, and prone to heat... which in turn causes NOISE.


----------



## jvillain (Sep 2, 2020)

Mark3794 said:


> Sub 999$ full frame camera... I hope they get rid of that 6D mark II sensor and i'll buy one the first day



Good new they found a pallet of old 5D MkI sensors in the warehouse and now for $1000 you can have a 12MP camera. 

Who is the demographic screaming "what we really want is a shittier camera"?. If they are really doing this then it would add fuel to the idea that they are going to dump the M line up.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 2, 2020)

Comes in a box of crackerjacks. More boxes for extra lenses.


----------



## VivaLasVegas (Sep 2, 2020)

This will be a perfect upgrade for my GF's cellphone camera. Hopefully it'll include IBIS, 3" articulating screen and a decent eye AF.


----------



## bergstrom (Sep 2, 2020)

was thinking of getting an R6, but will hold off now.


----------



## johnhenry (Sep 2, 2020)

Won't hold my breath.


The 6D was supposed to be their FF dSLR but was disappointing in many ways.


The 6D Mk2 was supposed to be better but it was a hobbled by its single card, so so number of pixels and lack of 4K video, and its auto focus cluster was basically dropped in from one of their APSC cameras.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Sep 2, 2020)

Yay, a camera unusable for those of us with 20/20 vision but who still need old-fart reading glasses 

I'll want one, though.


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Sep 2, 2020)

So many cameras


----------



## H. Jones (Sep 2, 2020)

I always love the disconnect between gearheads in camera communities and the actual market.

A full frame camera under $1000 will sell like absolute hotcakes no matter if it has a 20 megapixel sensor or the "crappy" 26 megapixel sensor from the RP again.

There are vastly more sales of cameras like the M50 from random people walking into a Best Buy or searching "camera" on Amazon than there are people who know anything about how old a sensor is, what a "full frame sensor" is, or even what dynamic range is. If you're going to complain, then clearly the camera isn't for you, it's as simple as that.


----------



## mpb001 (Sep 2, 2020)

While I still like my 5DIV, I would not mind having a small FF Mirrorless camera. I could probably live without a built in EVF but it would definitely need to have an external one. I would also be ok without IBIS if the camera was overall smaller than say the RP.


----------



## brad-man (Sep 2, 2020)

johnhenry said:


> Won't hold my breath.
> 
> 
> The 6D was supposed to be their FF dSLR but was disappointing in many ways.
> ...


If you can't get a great photo from a 6D, then you need a different hobby/profession. If you're looking for more features, then don't choose the cheapest entry level model.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 2, 2020)

I recall an interview, now at least a year old, where Canon execs said they planned to introduce models below the then current R and RP, so this is certainly plausible. No EVF says it's not for me, but by now there are at least two generations of photographers out there who have never looked into a viewfinder and Canon needs to get them addicted if the company is going to have any customers in the future.


----------



## slclick (Sep 2, 2020)

No evf says just use phone to me. I want a camera. I would tend to think it will have an evf but not much more than 2m dots. You get what you pay for although many here think they are owed more.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 2, 2020)

All these M/M7/RF-Crop/Budget R rumors make me feel:


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 2, 2020)

slclick said:


> No evf says just use phone to me. I want a camera. I would tend to think it will have an evf but not much more than 2m dots. You get what you pay for although many here think they are owed more.



The probability of both the EVF being removed as well the M series being cancelled:


----------



## 3serious (Sep 2, 2020)

Great! Now give us an RF 135 f/1.x that works with 12fps H+ and/or the RF 70-135 f/2


----------



## Aaron D (Sep 2, 2020)

mangobutter said:


> F those dynamic range arguments. WAY OVER BLOWN for real world scenarios. you'll almost never need that. It's nice to have but too many cry about it just cause youtubers cry about it.



Huge DR isn't a big deal for an RF Rebel equivalent--but the real world scenario _I need it_ for is architectural assignment photography. Sure you can do multiple exposures for blown out lights, windows, etc--and I do--but huge DR would save me a significant chunk of editing time.


----------



## Andy Westwood (Sep 2, 2020)

I tiny compact FF camera is an excellent idea; Sony are already heading that way with the new soon to be launched A7C.

May be a slightly larger M6 style body to accommodate the bigger sensor, a twisty tilt screen would be nice and with a hot shoe that could take an optional EVF like the M6 that way Canon could still cash in on accessory sales and users would at least have an option of an EVF.

I have always admired the streamline styling of the M6. I’ve never used a plug-on EVF but surely better than no option at all, or even a popup EVF rather than a popup flash.

The last time I used my M5 was last year on a family holiday in Norway before all this Covid madness. I used the EVF for most of my outdoor shots as it was simply too bright to use the back of the screen, although the back of the screen was great later for reviewing images in the shade.

I think Canon will rollout DPAF 2 on all future R models now, history shows once they update their AF system all future models come with the same AF, even entry models, for example the entry M200 in the EOS M range and even the 250D in the aging DSLR range all came with Canons latest AF system. So, I think we can expect better AF in all future Canon changeable lens cameras from now on.


----------



## usern4cr (Sep 2, 2020)

I think it's a great idea to get an even less expensive R FF body out there to encourage more people to buy into their system. I assume it'd be in a kit with a very affordable & small lens as well - perfect. I assume it won't have IBIS to keep cost down. Maybe 2 kit versions - one with a non-IS lens and one with an IS lens for 2 different price points.


----------



## Jethro (Sep 3, 2020)

It would not be for me without an EVF, but clearly there is a market for small, lightweight bodies without EVFs, so why not? This might actually say more about the long-term plans for the M range (and the rebels) than any other rumours recently.


----------



## vjlex (Sep 3, 2020)

Sounds like the Rebel R to me. It's time they move the masses over.


----------



## PhotonShark (Sep 3, 2020)

If they gave us the RP sensor, EVF and video capability inside the R6 body with R5/6 autofocus, you'd have a winner. You might even call it an R7.


----------



## Skux (Sep 3, 2020)

Still waiting for the budget lenses to match.


----------



## H. Jones (Sep 3, 2020)

An interesting discussion would be naming. R10? R100? How would they diffentiate the cheapest option now that they've moved away from the letter-based names


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 3, 2020)

Andy Westwood said:


> I think Canon will rollout DPAF 2 on all future R models now, history shows once they update their AF system all future models come with the same AF, even entry models, for example the entry M200 in the EOS M range and even the 250D in the aging DSLR range all came with Canons latest AF system. So, I think we can expect better AF in all future Canon changeable lens cameras from now on.


I guess you are saying that because of DPAF but the DSLRs does not use DPAF when shooting stills with OVF. They had they dedicated focussing mechanism which was not the same across the entire line up. May be Canon will change that following the competition but knowing Canon' history of limiting features to separate the line up I highly doubt they will offer the same AF for stills across the board. I am not saying they should offer the same AF on a camera under $1k and the $6.5k camera they can and they most likely will limit it.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 3, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> Possibly:
> 
> Same sensor as RP or R (26 / 30mpx) because that should now be cheap enough.
> 
> ...



You are greedy


----------



## fingerstein (Sep 3, 2020)

Let's see.... Can we cripple it more? Oh, yes: there are so many ports and megapixels and let's put a tiny battery... Is overheating a feature?!


----------



## slclick (Sep 3, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> Let's see.... Can we cripple it more? Oh, yes: there are so many ports and megapixels and let's put a tiny battery... Is overheating a feature?!


I don't think you understand what a budget FF camera is. Using the 'C' word just takes your comments out of the relevant discussion.


----------



## R Ramina (Sep 3, 2020)

YES! A full frame M6!!!!!


jolyonralph said:


> Possibly:
> 
> Same sensor as RP or R (26 / 30mpx) because that should now be cheap enough.
> 
> ...


----------



## Joel C (Sep 3, 2020)

Brand new R6 sitting here in the box... Unsure if I really want to open it if it's just going to overheat. Meanwhile, Canon is trying to make other cameras?


----------



## analoggrotto (Sep 3, 2020)

Would go great with a pancake!!


----------



## Eclipsed (Sep 3, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> I always love the disconnect between gearheads in camera communities and the actual market.
> 
> A full frame camera under $1000 will sell like absolute hotcakes no matter if it has a 20 megapixel sensor or the "crappy" 26 megapixel sensor from the RP again.
> 
> There are vastly more sales of cameras like the M50 from random people walking into a Best Buy or searching "camera" on Amazon than there are people who know anything about how old a sensor is, what a "full frame sensor" is, or even what dynamic range is. If you're going to complain, then clearly the camera isn't for you, it's as simple as that.


Some people have a hard time grasping that some cameras and lenses are made for OTHER people.


----------



## slclick (Sep 3, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> Would go great with a pancake!!


THIS is always a welcome notion. Until the pancake police come in and start talking flange distance and element protrusion conflicts, those party poopers.


----------



## analoggrotto (Sep 3, 2020)

slclick said:


> THIS is always a welcome notion. Until the pancake police come in and start talking flange distance and element protrusion conflicts, those party poopers.



So does the additional registration distance of an SLR make the pancake possible? I believed this but then remembered that the EF-M has the rather well regarded 22mm pancake, and Sony has one for the APS-C E-mounts.

Anyway I have the heavy duty stuff, and am hungry for a wheat and butter milk pancake, hold the sugar and syzurp (I'm on a low sugar diet).


----------



## analoggrotto (Sep 3, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Sorry, but f that mf-ing RP sensor — not unless they remove that scrambled cable channel AA filter off of it.



Maybe the R6 sensor?


----------



## Darecinema (Sep 3, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Sorry, but f that mf-ing RP sensor — not unless they remove that scrambled cable channel AA filter off of it.


It's actually really funny for me to read this comment as a few hours ago I stumbled across some photos that I did in April. I had left my 5DIV at the office and a friend urgently needed some photos shot so I borrowed my kid's RP and did the shoot. I was looking at these photos and then saw the metadata and it reminded me that I shot them on the RP and I said to myself "Holy Crap! These look really great! I didn't think the RP was that good." 

So you may feel it's a crappy sensor, but in my opinion, it still takes very nice photos.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 3, 2020)

Darecinema said:


> It's actually really funny for me to read this comment as a few hours ago I stumbled across some photos that I did in April. I had left my 5DIV at the office and a friend urgently needed some photos shot so I borrowed my kid's RP and did the shoot. I was looking at these photos and then saw the metadata and it reminded me that I shot them on the RP and I said to myself "Holy Crap! These look really great! I didn't think the RP was that good."
> 
> So you may feel it's a crappy sensor, but in my opinion, it still takes very nice photos.



I'm sorry, what were we talking about?


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Sep 3, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I'm sorry, what were we talking about?


Ignore SteveC... He’s incapable of following the connection you’ve made that you’ve found results you’re happy with from the RP sensor. That you can get good results with it despite the AA filter. I guess following a thread is hard when you’re trying so hard to stir up confrontation.

I think this is a fine example of the benefit of having back up camera bodies (even if it was your kids). It’s awesome you got them an RP. A camera is such an awesome gift.

I wonder if they will remove the AA at this “budget” price point or if that will be reserved for bodies like the R6 and up.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Sep 3, 2020)

Sony is releasing an A7c and it’s not budget at all at over $2K, but has the horrible form factor of the A6600. It’s a vloggers camera There is no word on any other entry level FF from Sony at all that would compete with a $1K EOS R camera.


----------



## vjlex (Sep 3, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> Ignore SteveC... He’s incapable of following the connection you’ve made that you’ve found results you’re happy with from the RP sensor. That you can get good results with it despite the AA filter. I guess following a thread is hard when you’re trying so hard to stir up confrontation.
> 
> I think this is a fine example of the benefit of having back up camera bodies (even if it was your kids). It’s awesome you got them an RP. A camera is such an awesome gift.
> 
> I wonder if they will remove the AA at this “budget” price point or if that will be reserved for bodies like the R6 and up.


I thought it was clear he was making a joke about being distracted by the attractive, bikini-clad subject of the photos.


----------



## Darecinema (Sep 3, 2020)

vjlex said:


> I thought it was clear he was making a joke about being distracted by the attractive subject of the photos.


I interpreted it that way as well


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 3, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> Maybe the R6 sensor?


wouldn't it then just be the R6?


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Sep 3, 2020)

vjlex said:


> I thought it was clear he was making a joke about being distracted by the attractive, bikini-clad subject of the photos.


Ah, you’re right. They’ve just been a repeat offender in rudeness lately but I apologize. The joke flew right over my head. 

Oh god, maybe I’m the one stirring confrontation. My b SteveC. I think I need time off the forum. it’s quite addicting.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 3, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> Ignore SteveC... He’s incapable of following the connection you’ve made that you’ve found results you’re happy with from the RP sensor. That you can get good results with it despite the AA filter. I guess following a thread is hard when you’re trying so hard to stir up confrontation.



Sorry, Jim you missed my joke. Of course those are good pics, and his point is well made (I'm not anti-RP sensor; I'd better not be, I have a refurb RP on order). I went, looked at them, and forgot what we were talking about. Once I looked away, I was able to remember once again.


----------



## Deleted member 384473 (Sep 3, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Sorry, Jim you missed my joke. Of course those are good pics, and his point is well made (I'm not anti-RP sensor; I'd better not be, I have a refurb RP on order). I went, looked at them, and forgot what we were talking about. Once I looked away, I was able to remember once again.


I apologized for mistakenly calling you out in another comment. Joke definitely flew over my head. I lost myself in a dark tunnel vision and now I see... I should take more breaks.


----------



## SecureGSM (Sep 3, 2020)

Joel C said:


> Brand new R6 sitting here in the box... Unsure if I really want to open it if it's just going to overheat. Meanwhile, Canon is trying to make other cameras?


Does your R6 overheat by just sitting in the box? Wow. Your place is hot. /s


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 3, 2020)

This will be a camera for the big box stores to sell to new photographers just as the digital rebel was. Its not going to be loaded with bells and whistles or super sensor or even a EVF. That does not mean it won't do a good job in the right hands, but everything possible will be cut out to get the price down. The cost to manufacture a camera is not even close to the selling price. There are so many hidden costs that bump the price up to that big figure. I think Canon would like to get a FF camera / lens kit into big box stores for <$1000.


----------



## vjlex (Sep 3, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> This will be a camera for the big box stores to sell to new photographers just as the digital rebel was. Its not going to be loaded with bells and whistles or super sensor or even a EVF. That does not mean it won't do a good job in the right hands, but everything possible will be cut out to get the price down. The cost to manufacture a camera is not even close to the selling price. There are so many hidden costs that bump the price up to that big figure. I think Canon would like to get a FF camera / lens kit into big box stores for <$1000.


I agree for the most part, but for some reason I doubt that they would risk not putting in an EVF. It seems they use different qualities of EVF. If the M50 has one, I don't see why this one wouldn't as well. I just think this will be establishing that standard, and finally transition from consumer DSLRs to mirrorless. The Rebel R.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 3, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> I apologized for mistakenly calling you out in another comment. Joke definitely flew over my head. I lost myself in a dark tunnel vision and now I see... I should take more breaks.



So, basically, if I want to understand your state of mind then, I should bolt a Tamron APS-C lens onto my R5 and get a nice uncropped image circle tunnel-vision effect?


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Sep 3, 2020)

So a cheaper RP without EVF and IBIS and likely another recycled sensor. Maybe it's better to buy the RP then!


----------



## Swerky (Sep 3, 2020)

Why would the market need an Eos r that is cheaper than the rp? Maybe, if it has features not found on the rp. Ibis? For less than 999$, could Canon release basically an Eos rp with ibis and without evf to make it a realistic offer at such a low price? With ibis it would definitely need a bigger battery. Specially if we have the option to add an external evf. Could Canon still be able to price all that for less than 999?
In any case if it turns out to be an evf less eos rp with no option for an evf, it’s a no go for me. I’ll get the Nikon Z5 to adapt my lovely voigtlander lenses.


----------



## degos (Sep 3, 2020)

Swerky said:


> Why would the market need an Eos r that is cheaper than the rp?



What an odd question.

Perhaps because $999 is still a hell of a lot of money?


----------



## Swerky (Sep 3, 2020)

degos said:


> What an odd question.
> 
> Perhaps because $999 is still a hell of a lot of money?


I’d imagine if one was on the market for a full frame camera, one would have a minimum budget to be prepared to pay. Full frame isn’t a necessity or a desire for everybody. For the same amount of money one can get a better crop sensor camera.


----------



## koenkooi (Sep 3, 2020)

mangobutter said:


> Too many people cry about 6D2 sensor.. its not an issue. I was going over my Lightroom catalog yesterday that has over 200,000 photos from all kinds of cameras including the original EOS M with its super trashy 18mp sensor and the original 6D. The amount of clarity and supreme detail i was able to pull out of those files even at high ISO.. i was thinking... F those dynamic range arguments. WAY OVER BLOWN for real world scenarios. you'll almost never need that. It's nice to have but too many cry about it just cause youtubers cry about it. I was floored at how many beautiful EOS M (ORIGINAL) photos I could crank out.



I've been going over my honeymoon (2013) pics to finally make an album out of them and the M pictures still look great. I've run a few of the high ISO (800 and up) ones through Topaz Denoise and that improved those shots even more.
But I have to say that I do like that I can raise the shadows more in photos from my RP compared to the M, black insects are really hard to expose properly. I never missed 'moar DR', but after getting it in the RP, I've started appreciating it. But for non-macro shots the original M is still more than good enough.


----------



## PerKr (Sep 3, 2020)

a $900 camera with no EVF. I fail to see how anyone can be excited by such a camera. De-featured to Olympus E-PL8 levels without the benefit of being compact unless using lenses negating any FF sensor advantage. Obviously there is demand for such a thing though considering how many here and over at SAR get über excited by suggestions of these bulky point-and-shoots.


----------



## koenkooi (Sep 3, 2020)

Swerky said:


> I’d imagine if one was on the market for a full frame camera, one would have a minimum budget to be prepared to pay. Full frame isn’t a necessity or a desire for everybody. For the same amount of money one can get a better crop sensor camera.



If we for a moment assume that Canon isn't going to make any more Ms and EF-S rebels, what would replace the $/€500 body + lens combo? Is Canon going to cede the sub-$/€1000 market to phones?


----------



## DigiAngel (Sep 3, 2020)

if they dont cripple the heck out of it, i would actually buy one for dedicated video use. dont need evf and in body stabilisation for that.


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 3, 2020)

Good news if it gets confirmed.
Also, offering a wider set of cheap prime lenses as an add-on could be a good idea, to my sense. And maybe a 24-70 F/4 or so...


----------



## BurningPlatform (Sep 3, 2020)

I wonder, what is the problem with having cameras at multiple price points, with feature lists that match the price?

Of course we can give Canon some advice about what features would be needed. I personally think that the image quality should be better than what you get from APS-C cameras and phones, otherwise the customers will be disappointed. And that's about it. That would be enough to lure people into the R eco-system.


----------



## i_SH (Sep 3, 2020)

I have one wish for a new budget camera - leave the RP design! Naturally, preserving the viewfinder!)
Of course, it would be great if the matrix on it was of a new generation and a little over 20 megapixels.
And release 17-70 / 3.5-5.6 lens!


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 3, 2020)

i_SH said:


> I have one wish for a new budget camera - leave the RP design! Naturally, preserving the viewfinder!)
> Of course, it would be great if the matrix on it was of a new generation and a little over 20 megapixels.
> And release 17-70 / 3.5-5.6 lens!


Agreed. Though, I may be wrong but isn't 17-70 an APS-C lens's range for zoom ? We're talking about FF camera here. So maybe 28-70 or 24-70 is more accurate.


----------



## Swerky (Sep 3, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> If we for a moment assume that Canon isn't going to make any more Ms and EF-S rebels, what would replace the $/€500 body + lens combo? Is Canon going to cede the sub-$/€1000 market to phones?


The way things are going, the rebel cameras are staying. We’re still not certain wether the Eos m line would be cut off. And if that’s the case can we realistically assume that Canon will only be doing full frame cameras, distributed between high end, mid range and low end?


----------



## Gino_FOTO (Sep 3, 2020)

Even cheaper full-frame than RP would be very welcome,
but I ain't that sure about APS-C body build on R system, smaller sensor was always about compromises.


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 3, 2020)

johnhenry said:


> Won't hold my breath.
> 
> 
> The 6D was supposed to be their FF dSLR but was disappointing in many ways.
> ...


6D is and will probably be the best seller FF DSLR forever (and maybe even the best FF SLR seller overall, considering the 2012-2015 "bubbled" market figures vs what's left of them now). I can't figure out what was disappointing about it. It's aged now for sure, and can be considered limited at some points if we compare it to cameras in same price range that were launched few years later, but, as it was the first affordable FF digital choice, it can't be qualified of "disappointing" in any way to my sense.
And I personally always vastly preferred the 20Mp sensor from the 6D than the 26Mp from the 6DII. To me, 30% more things with nearly no benefit is simply a loss, in the end.
The improvement of the screen features were certainly great though and the AF was also a tad better on the 6DII.


----------



## i_SH (Sep 3, 2020)

Pierre Lagarde said:


> Agreed. Though, I may be wrong but isn't 17-70 an APS-C lens's range for zoom ? We're talking about FF camera here. So maybe 28-70 or 24-70 is more accurate.


Thank)
There have been patent applications for the 17-70 and 16-60 full-frame lenses.








Canon Patent Application: Another Canon RF 17-70mm Design.


We have seen this particular focal range before. This patent application has embodiments and examples for both the EF mount and the RF mount. The focal range is a delicious 17-70 or 16-60mm and because the image height is 21.64, they are all full frame lenses. This focal length has been...



www.canonnews.com


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 3, 2020)

i_SH said:


> Thank)
> There have been patent applications for the 17-70 and 16-60 full-frame lenses.
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed, though there is a long way between patents and effective real gears. That would be interesting, if also it can be cheap enough. However, looks like Canon has decided to surprise us from now on (I'm thinking of 600mm and 800mm F/11 for instance), so why not..


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Sep 3, 2020)

Joel C said:


> Brand new R6 sitting here in the box... Unsure if I really want to open it if it's just going to overheat. Meanwhile, Canon is trying to make other cameras?


I don't know your reasons or thought process for ordering the R6 but clearly you thought there were features that would suite your needs above that of the body your already have. 
I have the R5 and despite the deluge of negative comments, decided to not listen to the you tube nay sayers and negative members on this community and actually make my own mind up. I am so pleased I did as the R5 is everything I wanted it to be and more, especially with the new firmware.

My advice for what it is worth, is, unless you are doing long high resolution video clips, I would open the box, experience the camera for yourself and make your own mind up. There will be more firmware updates which I am 100% positive will make the camera better just as they did with the R.


----------



## Fran Decatta (Sep 3, 2020)

padam said:


> Perfect match for the 28-70/2



In case that this camera have the same AF and sensor as RP camera, sadly, this match can become true for me, because I will want it as a backup camera hahahaha I was thinking in purchase an RP as backup, but if it can cost even less, better then. Will be a camera thatI only will use as an emergency hahahaha


----------



## Marximusprime (Sep 3, 2020)

Darecinema said:


> It's actually really funny for me to read this comment as a few hours ago I stumbled across some photos that I did in April. I had left my 5DIV at the office and a friend urgently needed some photos shot so I borrowed my kid's RP and did the shoot. I was looking at these photos and then saw the metadata and it reminded me that I shot them on the RP and I said to myself "Holy Crap! These look really great! I didn't think the RP was that good."
> 
> So you may feel it's a crappy sensor, but in my opinion, it still takes very nice photos.




I liked the RP when I tried it. I tested it at a botanic garden and I liked the images SOOC, kind of film-like. With the exception of one or two others, my RP images on Flickr are by far my most viewed.


----------



## i_SH (Sep 3, 2020)

Pierre Lagarde said:


> Indeed, though there is a long way between patents and effective real gears. That would be interesting, if also it can be cheap enough. However, looks like Canon has decided to surprise us from now on (I'm thinking of 600mm and 800mm F/11 for instance), so why not..


Moreover, Panasonic has already released a compact 20-60 / 3.5-5.6 full-frame lens ... Too bad our beloved Canon is lagging behind!


----------



## zonoskar (Sep 3, 2020)

R6 sensor makes sense. I doesn't really make a big difference in manufacturing cost, a FF sensor is a big slice of silicon, no matter how low-tech it is. I hope Canon makes this low-cost RF camera with the R6 sensor, digic X processor and 4 or 5 fps mechanical. They just have to make sure it does the same 4K 30p as the R6 and they can skip all the fancy modes above that (cripple hammer). no EVF, no top LCD, and no joystick. Without the IBIS it will probably also not overheat in any mode.


----------



## analoggrotto (Sep 3, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> wouldn't it then just be the R6?



In a smaller body without an EVF (or IBIS and dual cards) would not an R6 be right?


I've always sworn myself to having one camera body at a time, but this would be a good reason to have 2. 

And also, Pancakes pleasE!! There was a pancake rumor, lets see the pancake!


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 3, 2020)

i_SH said:


> Moreover, Panasonic has already released a compact 20-60 / 3.5-5.6 full-frame lens ... Too bad our beloved Canon is lagging behind!


Yes, though I already think 70mm can be short overall... Anyway, I usually prefer having fixed lenses (and 35mm is my own fav in this range).


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 3, 2020)

Darecinema said:


> It's actually really funny for me to read this comment as a few hours ago I stumbled across some photos that I did in April. I had left my 5DIV at the office and a friend urgently needed some photos shot so I borrowed my kid's RP and did the shoot. I was looking at these photos and then saw the metadata and it reminded me that I shot them on the RP and I said to myself "Holy Crap! These look really great! I didn't think the RP was that good."
> 
> So you may feel it's a crappy sensor, but in my opinion, it still takes very nice photos.


Indeed, and I will add that no FF sensor can be called crappy since at least 2012... To my sense, at worst, we only can talk about preferences.


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 3, 2020)

i_SH said:


> Thank!
> I am a photography lover and I am far from young. Considering my addictions - day trips and photography of the landscape and friends, I would like to have a lightweight set of equipment, consisting of a camera and two lenses, for example, 16 (20) -60 (70) and 70-300 ...
> I'm here  https://www.flickr.com/photos/i_sh/


Nice ! At that point I use 70-300mm and a fixed 35mm. And for specific bird shooting I use a bigger tool... ... all that put on my bicycle.  .


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 3, 2020)

Joel C said:


> Brand new R6 sitting here in the box... Unsure if I really want to open it if it's just going to overheat. Meanwhile, Canon is trying to make other cameras?


I guarantee it won't overheat if you leave it in the box.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 3, 2020)

Avenger 2.0 said:


> So a cheaper RP without EVF and IBIS and likely another recycled sensor. Maybe it's better to buy the RP then!



The sensor isn't the problem. The sensor in the RP is great. The big advantage of a new model will be the increased autofocus and tracking performance that the new DIGIC can give.

I think we're entering an era where computational power of cameras is going to be more of a selling point than the number of megapixels on the sensor.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 3, 2020)

Kit. said:


> I don't think the older sensor will be fast enough for that, but there's nothing wrong in reusing the 1DX III sensor again.



It may not be possible to do 4K full width on those older sensors - that's something that may be a sensor limitation, but there's no reason those sensors can't support animal eye AF with a better DIGIC chip because it's the DIGIC performance that's critical here. It might even still be possible to do it on the EOS R hardware if the code is optimized well enough, but certainly with a faster CPU a 'EOS RP mark II' would be able to do it fine.


----------



## Rivermist (Sep 3, 2020)

mangobutter said:


> This is EXACTLY what I want. TINY body (I MEAN TINY), NO EVF (we aren't in 1980 anymore, a 3" screen is superior to a 1" screen) and the R6 sensor. This would be the supreme leader of the Canon lineup, even vastly superior to the R5. Basically a full frame M6. Make it a flip up screen too, no flip OUT. Then offer a small pancake prime like 40-50mm 2.8. Take my MONEY ASAP.
> 
> a version w/ a recessed sensor and custom F2 lens (also recessed) would be HOT HOT HOT.


I would suggest that the one thing you do not want to take away from a system camera, cheap as it may be, is the EVF. Holding a camera up to do anything with the rear screen is punishing on the arms / hands for any length of time, the more so its there is a heavier lens or a flash unit. If there is sunlight, good luck seeing anything at all. The EVF (or conventional viewfinder for a DSLR) is the one differentiator relative to a cell phone or a point-and-shoot that makes a camera a camera, allowing the shooter to see the picture, the controls and viewfinder info and all good things while stabilizing the camera against the forehead.


----------



## esglord (Sep 3, 2020)

Canon appears to be placing high value on offering the cheapest full frame mirrorless. It makes sense that they'd aggressively go after any potentially serious beginner enthusiasts in this manner to get a couple RF lenses in their hands. Barring any revolutionary tech offered elsewhere, those users would have little incentive to switch brands when upgrading later on now that Canon has closed the gap on autofocus capability and ibis on the higher end cameras. Gotta get them invested in the system before Sony does.


----------



## stevelee (Sep 3, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> This will be a camera for the big box stores to sell to new photographers just as the digital rebel was. Its not going to be loaded with bells and whistles or super sensor or even a EVF. That does not mean it won't do a good job in the right hands, but everything possible will be cut out to get the price down. The cost to manufacture a camera is not even close to the selling price. There are so many hidden costs that bump the price up to that big figure. I think Canon would like to get a FF camera / lens kit into big box stores for <$1000.


I bought my first Rebel at H. H. Gregg when I went in one day to look at washers, dryers, and TVs. I just sort of walked by the cameras on the way in. It was cheap enough for an impulse purchase. It included accessories, and for another $100, they threw in a 75–300mm zoom. The kit lens was OK, but not great. Low light pictures were noisy. I mainly learned from it that I wanted a better Rebel and gradually some other lenses. I got a T3i and shot with it for years. From there I got a 6D2 and about six other lenses, including two Ls. If HHG had not had that display and I hadn't needed to buy stuff for the home I would move to in retirement, it's hard to say what I might be shooting now.


----------



## stevelee (Sep 3, 2020)

Rivermist said:


> I would suggest that the one thing you do not want to take away from a system camera, cheap as it may be, is the EVF. Holding a camera up to do anything with the rear screen is punishing on the arms / hands for any length of time, the more so its there is a heavier lens or a flash unit. If there is sunlight, good luck seeing anything at all. The EVF (or conventional viewfinder for a DSLR) is the one differentiator relative to a cell phone or a point-and-shoot that makes a camera a camera, allowing the shooter to see the picture, the controls and viewfinder info and all good things while stabilizing the camera against the forehead.


I used a couple S models as my travel cameras for years. Then I got a G7X II, and replaced it with a G5X II last fall. The cameras are light enough that holding them away from my face is not bad. The flippy screen is great for ceilings, domes, and inside towers. The 5 added a popup EVF. I use the screen most of the time anyway, but there are situations when it is too light to see the screen well. The EVF comes in really handy for composing then. It is not clear enough to do manual focusing. The diopter adjustment is too fussy for me to get it to look perfectly clear. (And with the DOF of the little lens, manual focusing is rarely needed.) Of the 3200 pictures I shot in Europe last fall, I'd guess that less than 10% were taken with my using the EVF, but I'm really glad it is there.

While I do use live view on my DSLR from time to time, it is usually when it is on a tripod, and only briefly otherwise. I can't imagine that I would pay for a FF sized camera without a viewfinder. Perhaps it would be like a gateway drug for newbies, just as my first Rebel was for me. Its main value was to convince me that I wanted a better camera. A mirrorless FF or APS-C camera without a viewfinder may well serve to convince people that they either want a better camera with an EVF or to quit taking pictures altogether.


----------



## fingerstein (Sep 3, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Let's see.... Can your vocabulary be any more crippled? Every post all you ever do is write about the crippled hammer.


Because "crippling" is a word associated with Canon, (un)fortunately! I remember the first time when I read about it was on an article about Canon EOS M. Canon didn't provided a way to output clean Hdmi signal for that version so people tried to install Magic Lantern with few card issues. Just a search on Google will reveal that "crippling" was used in titles by fstoppers (Canon Just Filed a Patent for a Brand New Cripple Hammer), canonwatch (Canon EOS R5: Crippled, Cropped Video, Focus And FPS Limitations, Says Matt Granger), dpreview (Will Canon Find A Way To Cripple The EOS R5? These Guys Think So), PetaPixel (Godox Flash Firmware Updates Bring Support for Canon’s Crippled Cameras)... So this is not the single word that is in my vocabulary. This is the word that Canon managed to be linked with on almost every professional site that talks about photography or video gear. But I guess it's their marketing choice. I said at the begining "(un)fortunately"... well, I think is Canon's choice to be viewed in this light and to be associated with the "crippling" word. So, în the end it might be fortunate... Because Canon leads the sales in this market even if they arr selling crippled cameras. I'm not a native english speaker so please don't be rude. Thanks!


----------



## Kit. (Sep 3, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> It may not be possible to do 4K full width on those older sensors - that's something that may be a sensor limitation, but there's no reason those sensors can't support animal eye AF with a better DIGIC chip because it's the DIGIC performance that's critical here.


The DIGIC performance is critical (in the sense that the old DIGICs would be not up to the task), but it doesn't mean that the sensor performance doesn't matter, especially for continuous autofocus.


----------



## stevelee (Sep 3, 2020)

Making fun of disabled people is a way of demonstrating your disdain for political correctness these days.


----------



## usern4cr (Sep 3, 2020)

Rivermist said:


> I would suggest that the one thing you do not want to take away from a system camera, cheap as it may be, is the EVF. Holding a camera up to do anything with the rear screen is punishing on the arms / hands for any length of time, the more so its there is a heavier lens or a flash unit. If there is sunlight, good luck seeing anything at all. The EVF (or conventional viewfinder for a DSLR) is the one differentiator relative to a cell phone or a point-and-shoot that makes a camera a camera, allowing the shooter to see the picture, the controls and viewfinder info and all good things while stabilizing the camera against the forehead.


This post about the EVF differentiating a "camera" from a cell phone got me thinking. If Canon wants to "woo" the new market of cellphone users into their R FF family, these are the very people who are used to only using the *entire camera-back* touch-screen in daylight or any other light.

So why don't you just *"Give them a cell-phone back screen"* and give them what they want. Make it look (& be as bright) as a cellphone, and *easily* interact with them like a cellphone. To them you just have added a R mount FF sensor & lens on it to take stunning pictures.

And, in the near future you could also offer an upscale(much higher price) version of this that would actually *"function as a cell-phone"*! Now they really have what they want!

Heck, if you have a entire-back touch-menu LCD that's as easy to use as cellphone users have come to expect, then *I'd be interested in buying it! *I could get by on a trip with it and not take my regular cellphone. And it'd inherently have the cellphones GPS to tag all your photos! (of course you'd have energy saving modes if you didn't want it turned on).

If you make it as compact in thickness and screen size as possible like a larger cellphone, then there's *no room for IBIS* (whether you'd like it or not). But that's OK - cellphones don't have IBIS anyway! And you have wide pancakes that don't really have to have it, and lots of IS lenses you can add. And no IBIS means you can integrate the sensor/processor/memory heat transfer efficiently to the body so you have no heating issues!

After all, if I take off the lens and put a mount-cap on the body, then it'd probably be pocketable (in a generous size pocket) and still function as a phone. Or maybe I put on a quality thin & lightweight pancake lens (as a kit option!) and it's all thin & light enough that I can comfortably use it as a phone or take pictures/video.

If you **really** wanted to knock it out of the park, then **do a deal with Apple** for it to be a full Apple designed iphone merged with a Canon designed R mount/sensor & lenses and let them design the camera processor & user interface! Now* I'd buy it *and* my 2 sons would probably buy it, too!*
One thing Apple can do is to make the user touch-screen interface fun, and make it visually stunning and *sell like hotcakes* at a premium price, with the Canon brand riding along as *top camera*!

Of course, you could also *do a deal with another major cellphone maker *to do all of this as well.

Call it the Canon "RCP" for R CellPhone, or iCamera (my favorite), AndroidR or whatever. *You'd make a *lot* of them!*


----------



## amorse (Sep 3, 2020)

Rivermist said:


> I would suggest that the one thing you do not want to take away from a system camera, cheap as it may be, is the EVF. Holding a camera up to do anything with the rear screen is punishing on the arms / hands for any length of time, the more so its there is a heavier lens or a flash unit. If there is sunlight, good luck seeing anything at all. The EVF (or conventional viewfinder for a DSLR) is the one differentiator relative to a cell phone or a point-and-shoot that makes a camera a camera, allowing the shooter to see the picture, the controls and viewfinder info and all good things while stabilizing the camera against the forehead.


I don't disagree, but it really does depend on use. I'd consider this potential body as a backup even without an EVF simply because upwards of 95% of photos I take are on a tripod and in live view. I think EVFless camera can fit some use cases, but I don't disagree that it is a fundamental change to how most users shoot.


----------



## koenkooi (Sep 3, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> This post about the EVF differentiating a "camera" from a cell phone got me thinking. If Canon wants to "woo" the new market of cellphone users into their R FF family, these are the very people who are used to only using the *entire camera-back* touch-screen in daylight or any other light.
> 
> So why don't you just *"Give them a cell-phone back screen"* and give them what they want. Make it look (& be as bright) as a cellphone, and *easily* interact with them like a cellphone. To them you just have added a R mount FF sensor & lens on it to take stunning pictures.
> 
> ...



Like this: https://www.canonnews.com/canon-patent-application-large-lcd-mirrorless ?


----------



## usern4cr (Sep 3, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Like this: https://www.canonnews.com/canon-patent-application-large-lcd-mirrorless ?


Well, the back fixed LCD is the same, but no EVF or bulge, and with as thin & flat a body as possible.

However, I'd also be interested in buying the camera you indicated with an EVF and full-back-touch-LCD R camera.


----------



## Joel C (Sep 3, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> I don't know your reasons or thought process for ordering the R6 but clearly you thought there were features that would suite your needs above that of the body your already have.
> I have the R5 and despite the deluge of negative comments, decided to not listen to the you tube nay sayers and negative members on this community and actually make my own mind up. I am so pleased I did as the R5 is everything I wanted it to be and more, especially with the new firmware.
> 
> My advice for what it is worth, is, unless you are doing long high resolution video clips, I would open the box, experience the camera for yourself and make your own mind up. There will be more firmware updates which I am 100% positive will make the camera better just as they did with the R.


Yes, I ordered the R6 to be able to shoot at higher speeds for getting images of fast moving subjects in relatively difficult lighting situations, I also have to shoot many 5-10 minute clips of video. Nothing super long, like interviews though. I use an eos R and my 6d mark ii for those along with Osmo action cams that can shoot for hours. 
I ordered this camera under the assumption that it would shoot similar video to the R, and a faster burst mode for the photos that I need to shoot. As a hybrid, that would fit right in with my work flow. Sadly, there is an issue that causes it to over heat, and would require me to bring _MORE_ cameras with me when I am off on location, and that is not a great addition when I have to do things like travel to the Netherlands to go film. 
I was kind of counting on being able to remove the 6D from my work flow along with some newer tech in a body. (It would also allow me to sell off EF lenses and move forward on more RF glass)
The Firmware for the R5 is out, and there should be firmware for the R6. Seeing the 7siii is out soon, it might be time to look into switching (which I do not want to do)


----------



## twoheadedboy (Sep 3, 2020)

Aaron D said:


> Huge DR isn't a big deal for an RF Rebel equivalent--but the real world scenario _I need it_ for is architectural assignment photography. Sure you can do multiple exposures for blown out lights, windows, etc--and I do--but huge DR would save me a significant chunk of editing time.



So you have a professional application. Why would you complain that a camera that is clearly for purely consumer pursuits doesn't suit your needs?


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 3, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> In a smaller body without an EVF (or IBIS and dual cards) would not an R6 be right?
> 
> 
> I've always sworn myself to having one camera body at a time, but this would be a good reason to have 2.
> ...



Sure, but I followed the conversation backwards but didn't see anyone mention anything about a smaller body.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 3, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> If we for a moment assume that Canon isn't going to make any more Ms and EF-S rebels, what would replace the $/€500 body + lens combo? Is Canon going to cede the sub-$/€1000 market to phones?



And that is a large part of the reason why I don't see them stopping production on entry level APS-C. Remember all of this is just RUMORS, the only one that got an explicit rating was a CR-1.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 3, 2020)

Rivermist said:


> I would suggest that the one thing you do not want to take away from a system camera, cheap as it may be, is the EVF. Holding a camera up to do anything with the rear screen is punishing on the arms / hands for any length of time, the more so its there is a heavier lens or a flash unit. If there is sunlight, good luck seeing anything at all. The EVF (or conventional viewfinder for a DSLR) is the one differentiator relative to a cell phone or a point-and-shoot that makes a camera a camera, allowing the shooter to see the picture, the controls and viewfinder info and all good things while stabilizing the camera against the forehead.



I remember many years ago being at the zoo with my DSLR (Rebel T3, at the time) and being unable to tell whether I was recording video or not, because the red dot was on the screen and I couldn't see anything on the screen. In hindsight (I was very green then) I must have had the thing set to be in liveview mode at all times or i"d have heard the mirror come down and be able to use the viewfinder when not videoing.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 3, 2020)

Kit. said:


> The DIGIC performance is critical (in the sense that the old DIGICs would be not up to the task), but it doesn't mean that the sensor performance doesn't matter, especially for continuous autofocus.



If the EOS R/RP can read from the sensor fast enough to update the back display/EVF then that data is certainly useable by the DIGIC for autofocus. Knowing people who work with this sort of AI, I can assure you that the speed and resolution of the data that's already being pushed through to update the display is more than ample for excellent eye tracking - it's almost certainly downsampled further from the EVF resolution for the AI anyway. The key factor is the performance of the CPU and of course how well the code is written. This is why the relatively old 6D II sensor is still fine for this.


----------



## Avenger 2.0 (Sep 3, 2020)

SteveC said:


> And that is a large part of the reason why I don't see them stopping production on entry level APS-C. Remember all of this is just RUMORS, the only one that got an explicit rating was a CR-1.


Indeed. Expect some APS-C RF mount camera's in the future. No or cheap EVF and cheaper RF crop lenses.
They will need those RF crop lenses anyway for their cinema RF mount camera's that have a crop sensor.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 3, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> Because "crippling" is a word associated with Canon, (un)fortunately! I remember the first time when I read about it was on an article about Canon EOS M. Canon didn't provided a way to output clean Hdmi signal for that version so people tried to install Magic Lantern with few card issues. Just a search on Google will reveal that "crippling" was used in titles by fstoppers (Canon Just Filed a Patent for a Brand New Cripple Hammer), canonwatch (Canon EOS R5: Crippled, Cropped Video, Focus And FPS Limitations, Says Matt Granger), dpreview (Will Canon Find A Way To Cripple The EOS R5? These Guys Think So), PetaPixel (Godox Flash Firmware Updates Bring Support for Canon’s Crippled Cameras)... So this is not the single word that is in my vocabulary. This is the word that Canon managed to be linked with on almost every professional site that talks about photography or video gear. But I guess it's their marketing choice. I said at the begining "(un)fortunately"... well, I think is Canon's choice to be viewed in this light and to be associated with the "crippling" word. So, în the end it might be fortunate... Because Canon leads the sales in this market even if they arr selling crippled cameras. *I'm not a native english speaker so please don't be rude.* Thanks!



Oh please.  It has nothing to do with your native tongue. (I actually had no idea English was not native for you, or did you copy & paste your apply above frame somewhere else? lol).
It has to do with every post by you using the "Cripple" word in order just to* bash Canon, for absolutely NO REASON*. If a brand has one model lowered in price, how can anyone with a sane mind think they should rightly have all the same features and specs as the more expensive one?

Just your last 3 posts (these are complete posts, so not much else to really say:

"Let's see.... Can we cripple it more? Oh, yes: there are so many ports and megapixels and let's put a tiny battery... Is overheating a feature?!" (we're talking about a BUDGET camera here, duh)

"5d mark iii had 25/30 fps în FHD, 7D mark II had 50/60 in 1080p and DPAF. Maybe a R7 would have better video options than R5... and will be less crippled... In my dreams."

"They should kill all the crippled cameras." (noting else to write in this post?)

another a few days ago:

"Let's see the price and the cripple hammer."

Stop being a Ken.


----------



## Aaron D (Sep 3, 2020)

twoheadedboy said:


> So you have a professional application. Why would you complain that a camera that is clearly for purely consumer pursuits doesn't suit your needs?


Who's complaining? Read it again.


----------



## BobbyMillette (Sep 3, 2020)

Wouldn't a budget EOS R be the RP?


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Sep 3, 2020)

Joel C said:


> Yes, I ordered the R6 to be able to shoot at higher speeds for getting images of fast moving subjects in relatively difficult lighting situations, I also have to shoot many 5-10 minute clips of video. Nothing super long, like interviews though. I use an eos R and my 6d mark ii for those along with Osmo action cams that can shoot for hours.
> I ordered this camera under the assumption that it would shoot similar video to the R, and a faster burst mode for the photos that I need to shoot. As a hybrid, that would fit right in with my work flow. Sadly, there is an issue that causes it to over heat, and would require me to bring _MORE_ cameras with me when I am off on location, and that is not a great addition when I have to do things like travel to the Netherlands to go film.
> I was kind of counting on being able to remove the 6D from my work flow along with some newer tech in a body. (It would also allow me to sell off EF lenses and move forward on more RF glass)
> The Firmware for the R5 is out, and there should be firmware for the R6. Seeing the 7siii is out soon, it might be time to look into switching (which I do not want to do)


An interesting dilemma. I'm pretty sure that the firmware released for the R5 will come to the R6 as well & if so, the R5 is now able to do 96 30 second clips of 4k HQ before it overheated which is pretty impressive and although not quite the same as you I would be surprised if limits for 5-10 minute clips were not increased after the b=new firmware. There's also the view that most people cant tell the difference between 4k HQ and 4k 30P footage when they are shown them side by side. I'm sure some people with 4k / 8k TV's may be able to tell the difference if they really look hard but I couldn't see a noticeable difference when I looked on my 4k TV. The good news is that 4k has no overheating limits as far as I'm aware.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how many stills shots can be taken before it impacts the higher resolution video side. From some reviews I have read on the R5, the number of stills shots is pretty big before it causes issues.

Tough choice but for me, I'd try the R6 and decide but that's just me lol. good luck!


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 3, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> An interesting dilemma. I'm pretty sure that the firmware released for the R5 will come to the R6 as well & if so, the R5 is now able to do 96 30 second clips of 4k HQ before it overheated which is pretty impressive and although not quite the same as you I would be surprised if limits for 5-10 minute clips were not increased after the b=new firmware. There's also the view that most people cant tell the difference between 4k HQ and 4k 30P footage when they are shown them side by side. I'm sure some people with 4k / 8k TV's may be able to tell the difference if they really look hard but I couldn't see a noticeable difference when I looked on my 4k TV. The good news is that 4k has no overheating limits as far as I'm aware.
> 
> The only thing I'm not sure about is how many stills shots can be taken before it impacts the higher resolution video side. From some reviews I have read on the R5, the number of stills shots is pretty big before it causes issues.
> 
> Tough choice but for me, I'd try the R6 and decide but that's just me lol. good luck!



I see on Facebook that some R6 owners are receiving their cameras with firmware 1.1.0 and others 1.0

Hmmm....


----------



## fingerstein (Sep 3, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> It has to do with every post by you using the "Cripple" word in order just to* bash Canon, for absolutely NO REASON*. If a brand has one model lowered in price, how can anyone with a sane mind think they should rightly have all the same features and specs as the more expensive one.
> 
> Stop being a Ken.


It's because that's what they do with the video specs... I'm still waiting to upgrade my C100II to something smaller and better... like a FF mirrorless... I have a lot of EF mount lenses, even TS-E... A lot of LP6 batteries... I look to Sony A7SIII - it's almost perfect. Sony keeps the same grip, the same batteries for all A7 series - so it's a good value; Canon makes you buy a grip for each camera model, that very soon has no value without the camera. Canon released 5D mark IV, but with impossible data rates in 4K, with only 24/25/30p and OMG, a huge crop factor... Oh, and an outdated CF Card! 1DXIII seems to be ok... but still is hard to use it as a video camera.
Then, the RF mount was promising.... Canon teased us by releasing the greatest mirrorless ever made using the advertising slogan "*Revolutionising videography. Again."* But they limited it with a fake temperature sensor and they called it "overheating". Is very frustrating to see than all my the Canon gear is dropping in price, mostly when I want to resell it. Other cameras hold up their price even if they are used. But Canon goes down in price with huge steps. This is a reality. People see that other manufacturers are more innovative and they listen to their customers so they will probably buy that, mostly if they just enter in this business with no previous investment. In the cinema world Sony released FX9 and now FX7 is coming (let's see!). FF 6K camera priced at $10,998 now on B&H. Canon released C500 FF 5.9K at $15,999! Canon is pushing our limits and is punishing it's (especially older) customers with their crippled cameras. So yes, is very frustrating. And yes, even after those limitations on R5, Canon even charge a lot for that (crippled thing). If you put in balance what each camera can do.... for the price, I think it's not worth it. As someone already said: "Why would someone buy a car that has an overheating engine?" I think this is a valid question. So, no, if it's not reliable, I'm not interested!


----------



## Iwasaki (Sep 3, 2020)

This would be a welcome backup to my R5...I really just need 2 slots, 20+MP, Same color science...Sub $1K


----------



## toodamnice (Sep 3, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> It's because that's what they do with the video specs... I'm still waiting to upgrade my C100II to something smaller and better... like a FF mirrorless... I have a lot of EF mount lenses, even TS-E... A lot of LP6 batteries... I look to Sony A7SIII - it's almost perfect. Sony keeps the same grip, the same batteries for all A7 series - so it's a good value; Canon makes you buy a grip for each camera model, that very soon has no value without the camera. Canon released 5D mark IV, but with impossible data rates in 4K, with only 24/25/30p and OMG, a huge crop factor... Oh, and an outdated CF Card! 1DXIII seems to be ok... but still is hard to use it as a video camera.
> Then, the RF mount was promising.... Canon teased us by releasing the greatest mirrorless ever made using the advertising slogan "*Revolutionising videography. Again."* But they limited it with a fake temperature sensor and they called it "overheating". Is very frustrating to see than all my the Canon gear is dropping in price, mostly when I want to resell it. Other cameras hold up their price even if they are used. But Canon goes down in price with huge steps. This is a reality. People see that other manufacturers are more innovative and they listen to their customers so they will probably buy that, mostly if they just enter in this business with no previous investment. In the cinema world Sony released FX9 and now FX7 is coming (let's see!). FF 6K camera priced at $10,998 now on B&H. Canon released C500 FF 5.9K at $15,999! Canon is pushing our limits and is punishing it's (especially older) customers with their crippled cameras. So yes, is very frustrating. And yes, even after those limitations on R5, Canon even charge a lot for that (crippled thing). If you put in balance what each camera can do.... for the price, I think it's not worth it. As someone already said: "Why would someone buy a car that has an overheating engine?" I think this is a valid question. So, no, if it's not reliable, I'm not interested!



They might buy it for it's #1 function: the best stills camera on the market that also does video.


----------



## fingerstein (Sep 3, 2020)

toodamnice said:


> They might buy it for it's #1 function: the best stills camera on the market that also does video.


I'm not in their target.


----------



## PhotonShark (Sep 3, 2020)

I still think the biggest issue with the R/RP is the form factor and the R5/6 shows that in their move back to the more traditional form factor. I really could see a lower priced model with the same form factor.

But, RP Sensor/EVF/Video. No joystick. Arrow buttons instead of third rear dial. Scene mode instead of custom modes. Improved AF.


----------



## toodamnice (Sep 3, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> I'm not in their target.



Then I would say look elsewhere.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 3, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> It's because that's what they do with the video specs... I'm still waiting to upgrade my C100II to something smaller and better... like a FF mirrorless... I have a lot of EF mount lenses, even TS-E... A lot of LP6 batteries... I look to Sony A7SIII - it's almost perfect. Sony keeps the same grip, the same batteries for all A7 series - so it's a good value; Canon makes you buy a grip for each camera model, that very soon has no value without the camera. Canon released 5D mark IV, but with impossible data rates in 4K, with only 24/25/30p and OMG, a huge crop factor... Oh, and an outdated CF Card! 1DXIII seems to be ok... but still is hard to use it as a video camera.
> Then, the RF mount was promising.... Canon teased us by releasing the greatest mirrorless ever made using the advertising slogan "*Revolutionising videography. Again."* But they limited it with a fake temperature sensor and they called it "overheating". Is very frustrating to see than all my the Canon gear is dropping in price, mostly when I want to resell it. Other cameras hold up their price even if they are used. But Canon goes down in price with huge steps. This is a reality. People see that other manufacturers are more innovative and they listen to their customers so they will probably buy that, mostly if they just enter in this business with no previous investment. In the cinema world Sony released FX9 and now FX7 is coming (let's see!). FF 6K camera priced at $10,998 now on B&H. Canon released C500 FF 5.9K at $15,999! Canon is pushing our limits and is punishing it's (especially older) customers with their crippled cameras. So yes, is very frustrating. And yes, even after those limitations on R5, Canon even charge a lot for that (crippled thing). If you put in balance what each camera can do.... for the price, I think it's not worth it. As someone already said: "Why would someone buy a car that has an overheating engine?" I think this is a valid question. So, no, if it's not reliable, I'm not interested!


i'm not even going to read your reply...lol


----------



## fingerstein (Sep 3, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> i'm not even going to read your reply...lol


Long story short: I won't spend my money on unreliable and overpriced cameras. Don't worry about that! But your attitude is like coming from Canon: "We don't want to listen. We know better." Good luck with your customers!


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 3, 2020)

toodamnice said:


> Then I would say look elsewhere.


He'd better, at last. 
Interestingly, when you take a look at this guy's messages, they are all of the same type : _I would like to buy/keep Canon... oh, but something sucks... Canon cripples and Sony/Panasonic/Anything else does better, so I'd rather buy Sony/Panasonic/Anything else..._ always nearly the same since nearly 4 years. 
I really wonder how comes he can still have any Canon camera (if ever he has) or still be interested in any Canon product... or maybe Canon is not as uninteresting to him, at least not as much as he tries to tell everybody here all the time.
And maybe, even with all those bad bad bad Canon gears, he's still having a hard time to make a decision buying something else... since 4 years ... come on !


----------



## SteveC (Sep 3, 2020)

Pierre Lagarde said:


> He'd better, at last.
> Interestingly, when you take a look at this guy's messages, they are all of the same type : _I would like to buy/keep Canon... oh, but something sucks... Canon cripples and Sony/Panasonic/Anything else does better, so I'd rather buy Sony/Panasonic/Anything else..._ always nearly the same since nearly 4 years.
> I really wonder how comes he can still have any Canon camera (if ever he has) or still be interested in any Canon product... or maybe Canon is not as uninteresting to him, at least not as much as he tries to tell everybody here all the time.
> And maybe, even with all those bad bad bad Canon gears, he's still having a hard time to make a decision buying something else... since 4 years ... come on !



S*ny must pay him well.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 3, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> Long story short: I won't spend my money on unreliable and overpriced cameras. Don't worry about that! But your attitude is like coming from Canon: "We don't want to listen. We know better." Good luck with your customers!



The R5/R6 is obviously not for you, but for many it's the camera they want. They are basically sold out at the moment.


----------



## Czardoom (Sep 3, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> It's because that's what they do with the video specs... I'm still waiting to upgrade my C100II to something smaller and better... like a FF mirrorless... I have a lot of EF mount lenses, even TS-E... A lot of LP6 batteries... I look to Sony A7SIII - it's almost perfect. Sony keeps the same grip, the same batteries for all A7 series - so it's a good value; Canon makes you buy a grip for each camera model, that very soon has no value without the camera. Canon released 5D mark IV, but with impossible data rates in 4K, with only 24/25/30p and OMG, a huge crop factor... Oh, and an outdated CF Card! 1DXIII seems to be ok... but still is hard to use it as a video camera.
> Then, the RF mount was promising.... Canon teased us by releasing the greatest mirrorless ever made using the advertising slogan "*Revolutionising videography. Again."* But they limited it with a fake temperature sensor and they called it "overheating". Is very frustrating to see than all my the Canon gear is dropping in price, mostly when I want to resell it. Other cameras hold up their price even if they are used. But Canon goes down in price with huge steps. This is a reality. People see that other manufacturers are more innovative and they listen to their customers so they will probably buy that, mostly if they just enter in this business with no previous investment. In the cinema world Sony released FX9 and now FX7 is coming (let's see!). FF 6K camera priced at $10,998 now on B&H. Canon released C500 FF 5.9K at $15,999! Canon is pushing our limits and is punishing it's (especially older) customers with their crippled cameras. So yes, is very frustrating. And yes, even after those limitations on R5, Canon even charge a lot for that (crippled thing). If you put in balance what each camera can do.... for the price, I think it's not worth it. As someone already said: "Why would someone buy a car that has an overheating engine?" I think this is a valid question. So, no, if it's not reliable, I'm not interested!



People who use the word "cripple" with Canon products are usually doing it because they don't understand physics, marketing, camera production costs, and - more often that you might think - photography. So, if you think that just because you see it on Camera forums and internet sites, that makes it acceptable - I would disagree. It usually is because the contributor has an anti-Canon agenda - and often is a Sony troll. So, if that's the group you want to be associated with, by all means, keep using that completely DISRESPECTFUL phrase. 

Canon calls the overheating in the R5 overheating because Full Frame cameras overheat when shooting video. It is not fake. It has been a problem with all brands for years. Physics demands demands it. Sony camera overheat even worse, but apparently people think that Canon is crippling their cameras while Sonys are almost perfect. Do you know why Canon has sensors that will warn you of the overheating? Do you know why the camera will shut off when it reaches a certain temperature?? It's so you don't damage your expensive new camera! And fools on the internet think that is a bad thing. Yes, Canon is conservative when it comes to the overheating issue. They want to be sure that YOU DON"T DAMAGE YOUR EXPENSIVE NEW CAMERA.

If you are dissatisfied with Canon, no one is forcing you to buy their stuff. Go buy your Sonys. Then you can go on their forums and complain about all that is sub-par with them. You may find (as other Sony owners like myself have found) that Canon's crippled cameras work a lot better and are - in the long run - a much better value and a much more reliable product. So, comparing costs is not always good measuring stick of what is the better value. Sometimes, you get what you pay for, as the saying goes.


----------



## Bert63 (Sep 4, 2020)

mangobutter said:


> This would be the supreme leader of the Canon lineup, even vastly superior to the R5.



Supreme leader?

For who exactly? For what?

Your blog link in your signature is Broken BTW.


----------



## Bert63 (Sep 4, 2020)

JIM JIM said:


> Oh god, maybe I’m the one stirring confrontation


----------



## Joel C (Sep 4, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> An interesting dilemma. I'm pretty sure that the firmware released for the R5 will come to the R6 as well & if so, the R5 is now able to do 96 30 second clips of 4k HQ before it overheated which is pretty impressive and although not quite the same as you I would be surprised if limits for 5-10 minute clips were not increased after the b=new firmware. There's also the view that most people cant tell the difference between 4k HQ and 4k 30P footage when they are shown them side by side. I'm sure some people with 4k / 8k TV's may be able to tell the difference if they really look hard but I couldn't see a noticeable difference when I looked on my 4k TV. The good news is that 4k has no overheating limits as far as I'm aware.
> 
> The only thing I'm not sure about is how many stills shots can be taken before it impacts the higher resolution video side. From some reviews I have read on the R5, the number of stills shots is pretty big before it causes issues.
> 
> Tough choice but for me, I'd try the R6 and decide but that's just me lol. good luck!


I also have the hope that the new firmware is going to solve a lot of the issues. I will be testing it over the next week in the field (am of course bringing back up cameras as I am going by vehicle) If it does really overheat, I will try to see what I can get out of the 1080p and if that is going to be good enough for my main use (which is youtube) as the compression on there is so tough, it really doesn't matter all that much. The multiple hour recovery period is what I am really shocked by, that does not seem to be reasonable at all. The tear down videos I have seen, it looks to be really cheaply manufactured, but, that also means nothing to me if it just works.

As I mentioned before, I am assuredly a huge fan of canon, that said, all of the other cameras work well. The EOS R and 6D are good examples of people trashing them and they work fine if you're not an insane person (looking at crazy high zoomed color cards for instance) I mean to say, if a persons workflow requires 16 stops of dynamic range from the camera? Seriously, buy a light. Or,do some planning ahead of time, LOL.


Here's an example photo that I need fast burst rate for. Shot in the worst light, in a dark fish room, with reflections everywhere. It's not really that in focus and I never even used this for anything. This shrimp will not be alive by the time I am in the correct country to get a shot of it again. So, hopefully the faster shutter speed will allow me to not have to drop the crazy money for the 1Dx mark iii...


----------



## jam05 (Sep 4, 2020)

jvillain said:


> Good new they found a pallet of old 5D MkI sensors in the warehouse and now for $1000 you can have a 12MP camera.
> 
> Who is the demographic screaming "what we really want is a shittier camera"?. If they are really doing this then it would add fuel to the idea that they are going to dump the M line up.


This isnt about the M line. Its about bringing over all those DSLR shooters to mirrorless


----------



## jam05 (Sep 4, 2020)

Bringing over the rest of our DSLR family to mirrorless. Educational discounts and all.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 4, 2020)

fingerstein said:


> Long story short: I won't spend my money on unreliable and overpriced cameras. Don't worry about that! But your attitude is like coming from Canon: "We don't want to listen. We know better." Good luck with your customers!



Whatever you say, Andrew Reid.


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 4, 2020)

SteveC said:


> S*ny must pay him well.


I hope for him he serves some other brands somewhere else too, in this case. He looks quite lazy to me.


----------



## yeahright (Sep 4, 2020)

Darecinema said:


> It's actually really funny for me to read this comment as a few hours ago I stumbled across some photos that I did in April. I had left my 5DIV at the office and a friend urgently needed some photos shot so I borrowed my kid's RP and did the shoot. I was looking at these photos and then saw the metadata and it reminded me that I shot them on the RP and I said to myself "Holy Crap! These look really great! I didn't think the RP was that good."
> 
> So you may feel it's a crappy sensor, but in my opinion, it still takes very nice photos.


I really don't understand why there's a surprise that the RP from 2019 can make decent photos under these (technologically) completely unchallenging conditions. Low contrast scene, so DR is easily within any sensor's capabilities, enough light, so no high-ISO noise concerns, stationary subject, so no potential AF-performance issues. It appears to me that following too many discussions on here completely distorts the expectations what even today's supposedly 'crappy' sensors are capable of.


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 4, 2020)

yeahright said:


> I really don't understand why there's a surprise that the RP from 2019 can make decent photos under these (technologically) completely unchallenging conditions. Low contrast scene, so DR is easily within any sensor's capabilities, enough light, so no high-ISO noise concerns, stationary subject, so no potential AF-performance issues. It appears to me that following too many discussions on here completely distorts the expectations what even today's supposedly 'crappy' sensors are capable of.


Some other hypotheses that may help you understand then :

- to suppose any nowadays FF sensor can be "crappy" may be the very sign of truly distorted expectations
- most people here knows how to get at least satisfying results out of any recent FF sensor/camera
- you expect to have the features/metrics you want for a much lower price than what can reasonably be expected

Wanting better is a good thing as long as it doesn't become an obsession, leading too big frustrations ... too many readings on the internet are intended to distort our expectations (probably to encourage GAS), and certainly much more than reasonable exchanges with other photographers in a dedicated forum.


----------



## addola (Sep 4, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> People who use the word "cripple" with Canon products are usually doing it because they don't understand physics, marketing, camera production costs, and - more often that you might think - photography. So, if you think that just because you see it on Camera forums and internet sites, that makes it acceptable - I would disagree. It usually is because the contributor has an anti-Canon agenda - and often is a Sony troll. So, if that's the group you want to be associated with, by all means, keep using that completely DISRESPECTFUL phrase.


 A Canon executive said DPAF was disabled in 4K on the EOS M50 due to "market position". That was clearly a business decision, not technical.


----------



## Pierre Lagarde (Sep 4, 2020)

addola said:


> A Canon executive said DPAF was disabled in 4K on the EOS M50 due to "market position". That was clearly a business decision, not technical.


What I read is "no need to make the price higher while the target won't use 4K for the main" ... that's indeed "market position".
Leaves quite a room for interpretation, don't you think ?...
And even a bigger room between a simple marketing decision and the word "cripple"...


----------



## nchoh (Sep 4, 2020)

addola said:


> A Canon executive said DPAF was disabled in 4K on the EOS M50 due to "market position". That was clearly a business decision, not technical.



I would rather have Canon survive by have good marketing sense than die off like Olympus. That way I am also able to buy the camera that fits into my budget.


----------



## Rivermist (Sep 4, 2020)

johnhenry said:


> Won't hold my breath.
> 
> 
> The 6D was supposed to be their FF dSLR but was disappointing in many ways.
> ...


I have never lost a single picture to SD card malfunction, so I see the whole single card issue as overblown for anyone other than professionals, pixel count is more than enough on the 6D II, it was already quite ok on the original 6D that I used as a second body for years. Many people buy dslrs and now milcs for photography, video is not a concern. Just saying that Canon understand their demographics and are good at producing cameras that target real photographer needs. My (recently sold, 7 year ownership) 5D mk3 served me well and the 6D as second body was an excellent price/performance product that complemented the main camera at an excellent price point relative to its capabilities.


----------



## magarity (Sep 4, 2020)

They can call this new budget model the R4000 and use plastic for everything including the mount.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 4, 2020)

magarity said:


> They can call this new budget model the R4000 and use plastic for everything including the mount.



I'll inform Canon of your decision.


----------



## Quirkz (Sep 4, 2020)

jvillain said:


> Who is the demographic screaming "what we really want is a cheaper camera"?.



Fixed that for you.


----------



## Starting out EOS R (Sep 4, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> I see on Facebook that some R6 owners are receiving their cameras with firmware 1.1.0 and others 1.0
> 
> Hmmm....


Interesting but not a massive issue as the update doesn't take long anyway. I suppose it will depend on when the cameras were shipped from Canon as maybe some were dispatched prior to the update?


----------



## Rule556 (Sep 5, 2020)

amorse said:


> Honestly though, I'd be potentially interested if the rumour was true. If it's small/light weight/cheap and even with no EVF, I could see it as a reasonable emergency backup body (depending on your shooting of course). I've done a lot of multi-day hiking with my 5DIV and have always kind of wanted a really small camera I can just throw into the bag as a backup in case the 5D goes over a cliff when I'm a few days travel from a camera store. Cheap/small/light makes it a great candidate for that, even without an EVF for me - I was really considering an M6+EF adapter for that role at one point.



I’m interested as well, but for street photography. Coupled with an adaptor and a 40mm pancake, or maybe the RF 85mm f/2... it would be unobtrusive, light, with all the advantages of full frame. A perfect second camera to my R for my shooting.


----------



## Rule556 (Sep 5, 2020)

highdesertmesa said:


> Yay, a camera unusable for those of us with 20/20 vision but who still need old-fart reading glasses
> 
> I'll want one, though.



Sigh... Yeah, I’d need an EVF.


----------



## Rule556 (Sep 5, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> Would go great with a pancake!!



Yeah, imagine a pancake 24mm f/2.8 for street shooting.


----------



## analoggrotto (Sep 6, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> This will be a camera for the big box stores to sell to new photographers just as the digital rebel was.



Are we close to the day of a $400-$800 new full frame camera?


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 6, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> Are we close to the day of a $400-$800 new full frame camera?


The new Brownie? I have my doubts.


----------



## brad-man (Sep 6, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> Are we close to the day of a $400-$800 new full frame camera?


 I am guessing $800-$900 would not be an unreasonable expectation for the next gen entry model launch price. If there is still such a thing as economy of scale in this new market, future full frame poly-carbonate rebels will come in even lower. Good times for new photographers...


----------



## analoggrotto (Sep 6, 2020)

I realize that manufacturing difficulty of sensors are inherently greater as they increase in size. 

Begun the full frame wars have. 

But can they pleeeeaaaaseee address the R5 order backlog first.


----------



## Fast351 (Sep 6, 2020)

I can't figure out what Canon is doing with this camera, IE what their intended target market is.

1) Best Buy/Costco ILC camera shoppers. Nope. Even if they want to ditch mirrors, which it seems pretty obvious what they're trying to do, there is already a well established M line that satisfies that need. Sure the lack of long reach lenses on that platform is frustrating for most, but 150mm is so much better than any cell camera that I don't think the hoardes of entry level camera buyers care.

2) Serious enthusiasts/non-pros. Nope. We already have the Canon RP and R for that. The glass is expensive enough that I don't see the RP being a significant barrier to entry.

3) FF for the budget shopper. Nope. Budget shoppers care zero about FF/crop. 

So who is this targeting? Maybe I dismissed #2 too easily and they're going to try to do a $600 body with some $200 lenses on the RF platform as a gateway drug. The only reason this makes any sense is because with the M/RF platforms there is no upgrade path like there was for EF-S to EF. But how big is this market really? Would a beginner in ILC care about full frame/RF mount? I don't see it. Maybe they're targeting existing DSLR ILC crop sensor shooters that are going to make the leap to full frame/RF? Again, how big is that market, and wouldn't that market be willing to pony up for an RF?

Only thing I can think of is that they're coming out with a line of cheaper RF lenses and need a body to go with it.


----------



## analoggrotto (Sep 6, 2020)

They could be competing with the used market and older A7 models sold at heavy discount to capture the next generation of first time *snap shooters*. (Thats what I am, but not a photographer).

Some nice budget compact lenses that really teach how light works would be a great combo.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 6, 2020)

Fast351 said:


> I can't figure out what Canon is doing with this camera, IE what their intended target market is.
> 
> 1) Best Buy/Costco ILC camera shoppers. Nope. Even if they want to ditch mirrors, which it seems pretty obvious what they're trying to do, there is already a well established M line that satisfies that need. Sure the lack of long reach lenses on that platform is frustrating for most, but 150mm is so much better than any cell camera that I don't think the hoardes of entry level camera buyers care.
> 
> ...



Even if they (casual photographers) did not care about FF/RF mount, they'll see the low price. Maybe they will never buy another camera or lens other than the kit lens. BUT, IF they stay with photography and end up enjoying it and wanting to continue and want to improve their gear, this inexpensive camera would make that possible. If there is no M system to purchase anymore, and they want a Canon camera, this is what they'll get.

Personally I would want the M to stay (to have something small when I don't want to lug around my larger gear). But with M6ii w/ viewfinder at the $1K price, it could make sense for Canon to no longer come out with newer M bodies. Then again, M50 is their best selling ILC to date. Only their research/analytics team would know best if the current M style cameras will continue, not us.


----------



## Fast351 (Sep 6, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Even if they (casual photographers) did not care about FF/RF mount, they'll see the low price. Maybe they will never buy another camera or lens other than the kit lens. BUT, IF they stay with photography and end up enjoying it and wanting to continue and want to improve their gear, this inexpensive camera would make that possible. If there is no M system to purchase anymore, and they want a Canon camera, this is what they'll get.
> 
> Personally I would want the M to stay (to have something small when I don't want to lug around my larger gear). But with M6ii w/ viewfinder at the $1K price, it could make sense for Canon to no longer come out with newer M bodies. Then again, M50 is their best selling ILC to date. Only their research/analytics team would know best if the current M style cameras will continue, not us.



Hmm, so your theory is they're going to kill the M line and transition everyone to an RF setup? Valid hypothesis, but I think that the M line is Canon's best selling ILC system right now, like you mentioned, so I have to imagine they'll at least keep going for a while with it. 

If it wasn't for the fact that I don't mind hauling around all my heavy stuff while going on vacation, I think the M line would be what I would own. Two or three native lenses, and maybe a 100-400 with an adapter, and you have a system just as capable as any DSLR setup for the price. And it's portable. 

Time will tell I guess. Interesting times we live in


----------



## spomeniks (Sep 6, 2020)

mangobutter said:


> Too many people cry about 6D2 sensor.. its not an issue. I was going over my Lightroom catalog yesterday that has over 200,000 photos from all kinds of cameras including the original EOS M with its super trashy 18mp sensor and the original 6D. The amount of clarity and supreme detail i was able to pull out of those files even at high ISO.. i was thinking... F those dynamic range arguments. WAY OVER BLOWN for real world scenarios. you'll almost never need that. It's nice to have but too many cry about it just cause youtubers cry about it. I was floored at how many beautiful EOS M (ORIGINAL) photos I could crank out.


That’s nice to hear that it rates as being better than “the original EOS M with its super trashy 18mp sensor”


----------



## Iain L (Sep 6, 2020)

I don’t know if they’ll kill M. But I’m in the Canon ecosystem because someone gave me a Rebel XTi / 400D back in the day. Then I bought better glass, then a better body and so on. With them showing all indication of slowly transitioning from EF to RF except for the new 1DX, they really need a more affordable RF body, whether that’s with a crop frame sensor or corners cut elsewhere.

The problem, though, is whether they can really cut the thing down enough to hit this rumoured $1000 price tag without making it substantially broken compared to the RP that’s not an awful lot more.


----------



## Baron_Karza (Sep 6, 2020)

Fast351 said:


> Hmm, so your theory is they're going to kill the M line and transition everyone to an RF setup? Valid hypothesis, but I think that the M line is Canon's best selling ILC system right now, like you mentioned, so I have to imagine they'll at least keep going for a while with it.
> 
> If it wasn't for the fact that I don't mind hauling around all my heavy stuff while going on vacation, I think the M line would be what I would own. Two or three native lenses, and maybe a 100-400 with an adapter, and you have a system just as capable as any DSLR setup for the price. And it's portable.
> 
> Time will tell I guess. Interesting times we live in



I have no theory. Just some contradicting thoughts making it hard to figure out what is going to happen. As mentioned before, only Canon knows what's going to happen. Or maybe even right now they don't know what is going to happen. LOL!


----------



## Bob Howland (Sep 7, 2020)

Baron_Karza said:


> Canon knows what's going to happen.


I'm pretty sure that isn't true. Canon could introduce a FF R equivalent to the M200 and an R7 body in parallel to the M system, including a new M7, and let the marketplace decide. Presumably, there will be increased revenues because of the new models, but there will also be increased costs. Which will dominate?


----------



## Fast351 (Sep 7, 2020)

Does Canon have a history of releasing two platforms and letting the market dictate which lives? (I'm asking because I truly don't know). 

If they can do it cheap enough that makes sense. No one, even Canon, knows where camera systems are going in terms of adoption. Maybe 10 years from now everyone will be shooting on Google Pixel 1234s and ILCs will be a distant memory.


----------



## Maru (Sep 13, 2020)

noone would accept a No IBIS camera in 2021... competitors have options with IBIS frankly.. this will be a bad idea.. I would think of adding IBIS and remove video features to get a photo only camera to reduce budget and a video only camera reducing to 12mp but again keepign IBIS


----------

