# Everyday camera - what to choose?



## Snzkgb (Jan 18, 2017)

I need help in choosing the right everyday camera. I already have two bodies with bunch of lenses, but this backpack is too heavy to grab it everyday, to shoot something while walking to the office or after it.

My requirements are simple: the camera must be as small as possible, but it must keep APS-C sensor and ability to mount lenses. And, of course, there is a price question (I buy almost always only used gear).

For example, SL1 can be found for as low as 300$ and EOS-M original can be found for 250$ in place where I live.
People say SL1 is a great little camera, especially paired with EF-S 24mm f/2.8 and EF-40mm f/2.8, and I like that it is really small for DSLR. On the other hand, EOS-M is much smaller, but than again the M original is maybe the slowest mirrorless camera in the world when speaking about AF speed.

So, what would you recommend?


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## Maximilian (Jan 18, 2017)

Hi Snzkgb!

As one of the 100D/SL1 + pancakes users you could expect my recommendation 

But before that you should think and tell us more about you personal requirements and preferences.

For example:

Do you need/want a viewfinder? (That'll be my #1 reason against an EOS M. Did you ever shoot in snow or at sea with just a screen?)
Do you want to also use your already available lenses? (Could be a pro for EF(-S) against EF-M mount, even with adaptor)
What focal length range is needed (with new lenses)?
If size is the main preference, did you ever think about changing to another brand? Is this an option? (e.g. Fuji)

If you could tell us then our recommendations would become more useful to you?


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## Snzkgb (Jan 18, 2017)

Maximilian said:


> Hi Snzkgb!
> 
> As one of the 100D/SL1 + pancakes users you could expect my recommendation
> 
> ...


Fuji make beautiful cameras, and I had X-T1 and X-T10 previously. But I want to stick to just to Canon now.
Focal length range is not a big question, I need something like 35mm, 50mm and 85mm equivalent, and it is just enough (i don't want to carry many lenses for everyday camera)
As for my existing lenses - they are too big and heavy, except maybe 16-35L f/2.8. 
Viewfinder is the thing I prefer to have, but I can live without it.


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## Maximilian (Jan 18, 2017)

*Re: Everyday camera *



Snzkgb said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Snzkgb!
> ...


Thanks for your reply! 
All this sounds pretty much like you really should take a closer look at the 100D/SL1.
I like it very much for its small size and still offering an OVF to me. 
AF and Sensor performance are somewhat of a compromise (when you're used to a xxD or xD body), esp. when ISO is getting higher than 1600. 
But AFAIK the sensor of the original EOS M is the same generation. 
Both pancakes are really good in IQ and only the STM AF is a little bit slow. 
I can take them around with me with an EF85/1.8 and a spare battery in a small bag.
Three lenses and a DSLR in a Lowepro Toploader 45 AW II is my whole setup for vacation (+ the charger in my luggage).

Have fun deciding


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## Snzkgb (Jan 18, 2017)

*Re: Everyday camera *



Maximilian said:


> Snzkgb said:
> 
> 
> > Maximilian said:
> ...


Thank you. It seems I should buy SL1 then.


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## WRS (Jan 18, 2017)

I have to put in a recommendation for the M5. I have owned other Canon APS-C DSLR's and currently have a 1DXII and 5DSR but I was really surprised by how small the native EOS-M lenses and overall package really are. I picked up with M5 with the 18-150 and used it on a recent family trip and came away really impressed with the IQ and ease of packing it around. I will certainly be tossing it in the car with me to take back and forth to work as my everyday camera. Of course if you like to buy used the M5 isn't really much of an option at this point. Good luck with the decision!


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## Maximilian (Jan 18, 2017)

WRS said:


> I have to put in a recommendation for the M5. ...


Please note the OP first post where he stated 


> ... And, of course, there is a price question (I buy almost always only used gear).
> For example, SL1 can be found for as low as 300$ and EOS-M original can be found for 250$...



If you could offer a M5 for slightly more than the mentioned 300$ I'd be interested, too


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## WRS (Jan 18, 2017)

Maximilian said:


> WRS said:
> 
> 
> > I have to put in a recommendation for the M5. ...
> ...



Understood but then he started talking about owning Fuji mirrorless cameras so I figured what the heck, I'll toss the recommendation out there.  In terms of fulfilling what he is looking for in a camera, minus the cost, it seemed to fit the best. Nothing worse than making a purchase and having regret because it still doesn't quite satisfy the need.


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## Snzkgb (Jan 18, 2017)

WRS said:


> I have to put in a recommendation for the M5. I have owned other Canon APS-C DSLR's and currently have a 1DXII and 5DSR but I was really surprised by how small the native EOS-M lenses and overall package really are. I picked up with M5 with the 18-150 and used it on a recent family trip and came away really impressed with the IQ and ease of packing it around. I will certainly be tossing it in the car with me to take back and forth to work as my everyday camera. Of course if you like to buy used the M5 isn't really much of an option at this point. Good luck with the decision!


Yes, I hear good things about M5, but it is way too expensive, especially for me. I definately thought about M3, but M3 is like 650$ used, which is too expensive for my third camera.


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## Valvebounce (Jan 18, 2017)

*Re: Everyday camera *

Hi 
I'd have to give that a +1. 
Having had an M1, and now having a 100D, (at least Angela has) there is in my opinion only one area where the M wins, and that is size, and then not so much if you add the adaptor for EF-s or EF lenses, image quality is probably a draw, in every other respect it looses, it is much too slow both in focusing and shutter response, the screen is hopeless unless you are indoors in a dimly lit location, it reflected wall and ceiling lights most all the time. 

Cheers, Graham. 



Snzkgb said:


> Thank you. It seems I should buy SL1 then.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 18, 2017)

I used the M and now use the M2 as a walkaround camera. The size is just right, and the native lenses are good (most of them) to excellent (the M11-22). If you must have a viewfinder, the SL1 makes sense, but for me, I want the smallest kit with the biggest sensor, and the M (except the M5) fits that bill. 

The M2 + M11-22 (or any other M lens) fits in a Lowepro Dashpoint 30 on my belt (and the M2 + M22/2 pancake fits in the Dashpoint 20). A complete M kit (body, 4 lenses, 270EX) will fit in a Think Tank Mirrorless Mover 20, which takes up less volume than my 1D X + 24-70/2.8L II. The M11-22 is by far my most-used M lens. 

On space limited or family-only trips, I now take just the M kit. On trips where I'm checking a bag and will have time for photography, I take my 1D X, several lenses, and a tripod...but I still take the M2 + M11-22 (and in that case, I also take the EF mount adapter so the M2 can serve as a failure backup to the 1D X).

Some samples... The pic of the London Eye below was taken with the camera on a Gorillapod mounted on the railing of one of the Golden Jubilee Bridges over the Thames, on what was effectively an overnight trip where I didn't check a bag and brought only the M2+11-22. The Mt. Washington shot was a family trip where I brought only the M kit. The shots of the Eiffel Tower and the Louvre were from a family trip to Switzerland/Germany/France where the M kit was used on daytime outings with the family, and the 1D X was used for evening/night solo photography outings. The GBH shot was local, when I went out to test my then-new M55-200 – I think that one shows that you shouldn't underestimate what the M-series can do!

"_London Eye_"



EOS M2, EF-M 11-22mm f/4-5.6 IS STM @ 20mm, 2.5 s, f/7.1, ISO 400

"_Mount Washington Observatory_"



EOS M2, EF-M 11-22mm f/4-5.6 IS STM @ 22mm, 1/1000 s, f/5.6, ISO 100

"_Eiffel Tower_"



EOS M, EF-M 11-22mm f/4-5.6 IS STM @ 14mm, 1/320 s, f/8, ISO 100

"_A Sense of Scale_"



EOS M, EF-M 11-22mm f/4-5.6 IS STM @ 11mm, 1/30 s, f/5.6, ISO 400

"_Down the Hatch_"



EOS M2, EF-M 55-200mm f/4.5-6.3 IS STM @ 200mm, 1/1600 s, f/6.3, ISO 800


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## Act444 (Jan 18, 2017)

I use an M10 as my everyday/travel camera and it works well. But AF continues to be its Achilles heel, especially compared to DSLRs. 

I had an SL1 and thought it was a great little camera. If you don't mind DSLR size I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.


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## slclick (Jan 18, 2017)

*Re: Everyday camera *



Valvebounce said:


> Hi
> I'd have to give that a +1.
> Having had an M1, and now having a 100D, (at least Angela has) there is in my opinion only one area where the M wins, and that is size, and then not so much if you add the adaptor for EF-s or EF lenses, image quality is probably a draw, in every other respect it looses, it is much too slow both in focusing and shutter response, the screen is hopeless unless you are indoors in a dimly lit location, it reflected wall and ceiling lights most all the time.
> 
> ...



Caveat...do you have large hands? I had a real issue with the SL1, I could not get comfortable with the ergonomics. Now, with an LCD based viewing body like the M series, that's not an issue but looking through a viewfinder and manipulating dials and buttons could cause you frustration. YMMV.


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## Snzkgb (Jan 18, 2017)

*Re: Everyday camera *



slclick said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi
> ...


Oh yes, I have very large hands. And I heard that SL1 can be a pain to handle with such hands. Tomorrow I'll try to use one, so we'll see if this is a real problem.


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## slclick (Jan 18, 2017)

Funny thing, the M5 is about the same size but the dial layout makes it much more user friendly(er) for me. Go figure.


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## Valvebounce (Jan 18, 2017)

*Re: Everyday camera *

Hi siclick. 
I have quite large hands and I found the ergonomics of the 100D easier than the M, however I much prefer a larger camera body, I briefly owned an 1100D (bought a kit to liberate a lens and some other bits) and found the size slightly better but for me a 40D or 7D is nicer to hold. Given all of that I still prefer the 100D to the M or the 1100D. 

Cheers, Graham. 



slclick said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi
> ...


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## slclick (Jan 18, 2017)

*Re: Everyday camera *



Valvebounce said:


> Hi siclick.
> I have quite large hands and I found the ergonomics of the 100D easier than the M, however I much prefer a larger camera body, I briefly owned an 1100D (bought a kit to liberate a lens and some other bits) and found the size slightly better but for me a 40D or 7D is nicer to hold. Given all of that I still prefer the 100D to the M or the 1100D.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.
> ...



M5?

Very different beast than the other M models.


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## Maximilian (Jan 19, 2017)

*Re: Everyday camera *



Valvebounce said:


> Hi siclick.
> I have quite large hands and I found the ergonomics of the 100D easier than the M, however I much prefer a larger camera body, I briefly owned an 1100D (bought a kit to liberate a lens and some other bits) and found the size slightly better but for me a 40D or 7D is nicer to hold. Given all of that I still prefer the 100D to the M or the 1100D.
> 
> Cheers, Graham.
> ...



Snzkgb, I suppose you should try and figure the ergonomics out in a brick and mortar store. 
Of course big hands could be a problem - on both M and SL1.
I personally (glove size 9) found the ergonomics on the SL1 good and much better than on any other xxxD body. 
Especially the shutter button is much closer to the center and your pointing finger doesn't have to bend that much.

If it's all about size and not viewfinder, think about a M2 because the AF should much be better than on the original M. To me this would be a dealbreaker to the M as well.


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## Snzkgb (Jan 19, 2017)

*Re: Everyday camera *



Maximilian said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > Hi siclick.
> ...


I'm already aimed at SL1, and going to buy second hand one today. I appreciate the OVF anyway, so having one is good for me.


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## FTb-n (Jan 19, 2017)

I've tried both the S100 and the G16 for small grab-shot cameras, but shutter delay and controls always throw me. Don't get me wrong, these are great little cameras, but I much prefer a DSLR with an optical viewfinder and controls that are more familiar to me (as in, more like the 5D3 and 1Dx). So I keep a 5D3 with a 24-105 f4 IS always at the ready for grab shots. I also keep the 70-200 f2.8 II on the 1Dx for the same reason. If I need to get the shot, I know how to do so quickly with either body. I simply don't use the PowerShots enough to get a shot quickly.

I recently purchased a Canon refurbished SL1 to be my compact grab-shot camera and so far am having a lot of fun with it. I purchased it with the kit lens because it was cheaper than the body-only, but I don't anticipate using it. I have the original 18-135 if I need a general purpose lens. One objective is to use this combo when fishing and when I didn't want to risk expensive gear in a small boat.

But, my main thought was to use the SL1 with the 24 and 40 pancakes. Knowing that this will limit range, it's okay for this type of shooting. I just wanted something small to have fun with.

To my surprise, I really like the 35 f2 IS on the SL1. I like this lens, but it just wasn't getting used enough since I tend to use the 24-70 2.8 more often on a 5D3. But, the SL1/35 f2 IS is a fun combo and fairly good in low light.


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## AcutancePhotography (Jan 19, 2017)

I know that the OP wants to stay Canon, but I just want to put out a good shout out for the Fujifilm X100T. That is my new carry camera and for my type of photography, it works well. It is small enough and big enough. ;D


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## Snzkgb (Jan 19, 2017)

FTb-n said:


> I've tried both the S100 and the G16 for small grab-shot cameras, but shutter delay and controls always throw me. Don't get me wrong, these are great little cameras, but I much prefer a DSLR with an optical viewfinder and controls that are more familiar to me (as in, more like the 5D3 and 1Dx). So I keep a 5D3 with a 24-105 f4 IS always at the ready for grab shots. I also keep the 70-200 f2.8 II on the 1Dx for the same reason. If I need to get the shot, I know how to do so quickly with either body. I simply don't use the PowerShots enough to get a shot quickly.
> 
> I recently purchased a Canon refurbished SL1 to be my compact grab-shot camera and so far am having a lot of fun with it. I purchased it with the kit lens because it was cheaper than the body-only, but I don't anticipate using it. I have the original 18-135 if I need a general purpose lens. One objective is to use this combo when fishing and when I didn't want to risk expensive gear in a small boat.
> 
> ...


I got second hand SL1 today, and it is in like new condition.
So far I am really amazed about just how small this camera is. And how well are all controls placed. With my big hands, I found that I can comfortably hold it.
I bought both 24/2.8 stm and 40/2.8 stm pancakes, and I cannot believe how sharp these little lenses are and how small too. 

But the new SL1 is not without a problem - it seems that sensor and prism are misaligned, so when AF blinks and tells me it is in focus, I see that it is not in focus in OVF. When I take a shot, it actually is in focus.
And when I switch to MF, and get the things in focus with MF and take a shot - it is completely missed and out of focus. Seems that tomorrow I will bring to Canon service not only my 7D and 5D2 to be tuned to my new 100-400L, but also I'll bring 100D to be aligned properly.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 19, 2017)

Snzkgb said:


> But the new SL1 is not without a problem - it seems that sensor and prism are misaligned, so when AF blinks and tells me it is in focus, I see that it is not in focus in OVF. When I take a shot, it actually is in focus.
> And when I switch to MF, and get the things in focus with MF and take a shot - it is completely missed and out of focus. Seems that tomorrow I will bring to Canon service not only my 7D and 5D2 to be tuned to my new 100-400L, but also I'll bring 100D to be aligned properly.



I presume you've tried adjusting the diopter?


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## Snzkgb (Jan 19, 2017)

neuroanatomist said:


> Snzkgb said:
> 
> 
> > But the new SL1 is not without a problem - it seems that sensor and prism are misaligned, so when AF blinks and tells me it is in focus, I see that it is not in focus in OVF. When I take a shot, it actually is in focus.
> ...


Yes, of course. This didn't help at all.


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## slclick (Jan 19, 2017)

Good luck on the next one you get after you return this one. Chances are it will be fine. Oh and yeah, those two lenses are the perfect companions.


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## Snzkgb (Jan 19, 2017)

slclick said:


> Good luck on the next one you get after you return this one. Chances are it will be fine. Oh and yeah, those two lenses are the perfect companions.


I can't return this one, because I bought it from another man, not in the store. And it is actually working.
I was prepared that something could be wrong, and I'll spend some money on repairs.


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## Random Orbits (Jan 19, 2017)

Snzkgb said:


> I got second hand SL1 today, and it is in like new condition.
> So far I am really amazed about just how small this camera is. And how well are all controls placed. With my big hands, I found that I can comfortably hold it.
> I bought both 24/2.8 stm and 40/2.8 stm pancakes, and I cannot believe how sharp these little lenses are and how small too.
> 
> ...



Have it checked out - it might not be a big deal. I noticed that I had dust trapped between the focusing screen an the prism and it was driving me nuts. I see the dust spots migrating over time across the viewfinder but they didn't show in the pictures. I decided to take it apart but just made it worse. More fiddling and the dust issue was worse. Fiddled with it once more and then I must have gotten the shims out of alignment so when I had put everything back in, it was OOF in the viewfinder but hit dead on in AF. Canon replaced the focusing screen and it was back to normal.


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## Snzkgb (Jan 19, 2017)

Random Orbits said:


> Snzkgb said:
> 
> 
> > I got second hand SL1 today, and it is in like new condition.
> ...


I've checked it - seems like someone with destructive hands tried to remove or replace the focusing screen, and little metal part, which holds the focusing screen itself is damaged and scratched. It is in the whole, though, so maybe people in service would be able to fix it and to install the focusing screen correctly. Or they'll just replace two metal parts that hold the screen, I doubt it would cost me much...except my nerves. Anyway, I knew what I was doing buying gear from hands.


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## Maximilian (Jan 20, 2017)

Snzkgb said:


> I've checked it - seems like someone with destructive hands tried to remove or replace the focusing screen, and little metal part, which holds the focusing screen itself is damaged and scratched. It is in the whole, though, so maybe people in service would be able to fix it and to install the focusing screen correctly. Or they'll just replace two metal parts that hold the screen, I doubt it would cost me much...except my nerves. Anyway, I knew what I was doing buying gear from hands.


Hi Snzkgb!

I' glad to read that the SL1 with the pancakes fits your needs. And of course I feel with you that the cam seems to be damaged.
If it is as you described - misaligned focusing screen due to wrong treatment - I guess the screen will have some scratches and the service would like to replace it. 
Something similar with my 5D3 - I scratched the screen during cleaning - did cost me some 50 - 60 € (in Germany). 
If nothing else it wrong, then you should be in the same range. Still annoying to spend extra money.
Hopefully everything else will be alright.


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## Snzkgb (Jan 20, 2017)

Maximilian said:


> Snzkgb said:
> 
> 
> > I've checked it - seems like someone with destructive hands tried to remove or replace the focusing screen, and little metal part, which holds the focusing screen itself is damaged and scratched. It is in the whole, though, so maybe people in service would be able to fix it and to install the focusing screen correctly. Or they'll just replace two metal parts that hold the screen, I doubt it would cost me much...except my nerves. Anyway, I knew what I was doing buying gear from hands.
> ...


Hi. I've get my gear to canon service centre. People there told me that SL1 needs to have focusing screen replaced and something else must be done, all work will cost me 90$. I've agreed, of course.
This little camera is very good to use, and fits it my everyday working bag like nothing in terms of size and weight.
But today I'm with all my gear in one backpack, and it is very heavy. Anyway that was the reason to buy SL1 - not to take my backpack with photo gear every day.


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## Luds34 (Jan 20, 2017)

Snzkgb said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > Snzkgb said:
> ...



Glad to hear the repair is very reasonable. Also glad to hear you are happy with the route you went. While not as small as an SL1, I used an old Rebel with the 24/40 pancake combo for a while as a "take anywhere camera" and was very satisfied with the experience. It slid in and out nicely in a little Think Tank Mirrorless Mover bag (Model 10 I believe). Ironically I've move to using a Fuji X system more for my day-to-day camera, but I do miss that Rebel + pancake combo at times. Must be the OVF.

Congrats again on the purchase and reasonable repair! Good luck!


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## Snzkgb (Jan 20, 2017)

Luds34 said:


> Snzkgb said:
> 
> 
> > Maximilian said:
> ...


Oh yes, I know that Fuji X can deliver great results, glad that you made it that way. I personally swapped Fujis back to Canon. Though I miss Fuji colors sometimes, but again I couldn't live without FF, that is why I sold Fuji. 
SL1 is extremely good though, and after repairs it works perfectly. Can't wait till Spring to get some shots of nature with that little camera while walking after work.


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## slclick (Jan 20, 2017)

Snzkgb said:


> Luds34 said:
> 
> 
> > Snzkgb said:
> ...



Wow, the steps for buying, taking to service center, getting back repaired all happened at lightspeed! Good for you!


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## Snzkgb (Jan 20, 2017)

slclick said:


> Wow, the steps for buying, taking to service center, getting back repaired all happened at lightspeed! Good for you!


It's just money, that is why getting back repaired happened so fast. If I wouldn't pay for the "emergency repairs" 30% more, than I'd probably got my camera back only after a week or so.


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## Luds34 (Jan 21, 2017)

Snzkgb said:


> Oh yes, I know that Fuji X can deliver great results, glad that you made it that way. I personally swapped Fujis back to Canon. Though I miss Fuji colors sometimes, but again I couldn't live without FF, that is why I sold Fuji.
> SL1 is extremely good though, and after repairs it works perfectly. Can't wait till Spring to get some shots of nature with that little camera while walking after work.



Don't get me wrong, I do like the Fuji but my money/heart is still in the Canon system. I just have a Fuji X-E2 (after fw 4.0 it's a very solid camera) and a few prime lenses from 12mm to 35mm. A nice little travel kit. However when I get serious/dedicated into my shooting I like to bust out the 6D. The camera has served me well other than the AF system being a bit lacking at times. So I'm really looking forward to the 6D2, a camera I think I can use for many years and be happy with.

Funny, I kind of prefer the Canon colors. With Fuji most the time I throw on classic chrome to just give it that look. But by no means are those natural colors.

Congrats on the purchase again. Makes me think I should have held on my to my EF-S 24mm just in case.


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## Snzkgb (Jan 21, 2017)

Luds34 said:


> Snzkgb said:
> 
> 
> > Oh yes, I know that Fuji X can deliver great results, glad that you made it that way. I personally swapped Fujis back to Canon. Though I miss Fuji colors sometimes, but again I couldn't live without FF, that is why I sold Fuji.
> ...


Oh yes, EF-S 24mm f/2.8 STM is very, very sharp lens. As well as EF 40mm f/2.8 STM is.
But the focusing speed is not as good as I hoped it would be. Maybe I've just been spoiled by L lenses, of course...


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## Amin007 (Jan 21, 2017)

EOS M5 EF-M 18-150mm IS STM Kit


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## Snzkgb (Jan 22, 2017)

Amin007 said:


> EOS M5 EF-M 18-150mm IS STM Kit


Too expensive.


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## Snzkgb (Jan 22, 2017)

As for conclusion - I love the SL1. Very small, very light, and image quality is good for me. Even if it would be the only one camera that I have, I would be OK with that.

This is the portrait of my cat with SL1 and 40mm STM


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## Luds34 (Jan 22, 2017)

Snzkgb said:


> Oh yes, EF-S 24mm f/2.8 STM is very, very sharp lens. As well as EF 40mm f/2.8 STM is.
> But the focusing speed is not as good as I hoped it would be. Maybe I've just been spoiled by L lenses, of course...



Yes, both very sharp lenses. Yeah, the focus speed leaves a bit to be desired. As long as you don't need to rack from MFD to infinity (or vice versa) it's okay. I figured that was the small cost to pay for such a small, sharp, and affordable lens.


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## Snzkgb (Jan 23, 2017)

Luds34 said:


> Snzkgb said:
> 
> 
> > Oh yes, EF-S 24mm f/2.8 STM is very, very sharp lens. As well as EF 40mm f/2.8 STM is.
> ...


You are right, this cost is not so big for these two lenses. Especially knowing that I've bought both for 150$ each.


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## jolyonralph (Jan 23, 2017)

If budget is tight I would suggest the EOS M3 as the best compromise at the moment, especially as you can add the external viewfinder should you need it.

One great advantage of the external viewfinder over the EOS M5 built-in is that you can angle it, it's really very flexible for shooting.

The EOS M5 is a better camera in most respects, but the M3 has a couple of advantages still so I'll keep mine when I get the M5


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## Snzkgb (Jan 23, 2017)

jolyonralph said:


> If budget is tight I would suggest the EOS M3 as the best compromise at the moment, especially as you can add the external viewfinder should you need it.
> 
> One great advantage of the external viewfinder over the EOS M5 built-in is that you can angle it, it's really very flexible for shooting.
> 
> The EOS M5 is a better camera in most respects, but the M3 has a couple of advantages still so I'll keep mine when I get the M5


I think one real advantage of M3 is its price. In any other aspect M5 is better. Especially in AF.


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