# The Pros or The Enthusiasts?



## Diko (Jan 23, 2015)

What are you?

Please check *"The State of Cameras, 2015"* beforehand. Do you share the opinion of the author?

_*Updated:*_

*"What If Clients Don’t Really Need ‘Professional Photography’?"*


_*"EYETRACKING PHOTOJOURNALISM"*_ (*Please note:* _Part One in a four-part weekly series_)


*Results from Photoshelter Survey Show Photographers’ Outlook for 2015*


*EDIT:* Later posted links.


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## distant.star (Jan 23, 2015)

.
Seems like a well balanced, knowledgeable overview. Thanks.


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## wsmith96 (Jan 23, 2015)

I'm in the enthusiast category, but I'm not old as the article suggests this group to be. I'm not sure I share all of the opinions of this article, but many here on this forum have said that the money isn't what it used to be. Do you pro's out there agree that the market is getting tougher? 

-w


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## mackguyver (Jan 23, 2015)

I go back & forth between pro and enthusiast. I haven't shot full time since 2002, and had to turn down nearly all paid work last year, so I'd have to say I'm an enthusiast at the moment. With some serious rehab of my shoulders, I'm getting closer to going part-time pro again, though.

As for the work angle, it's sort of a change or die time. If you're a photojournalist, stock shooter, or someone like that, it's a rough world. If you shoot specialized subjects (real estate, expensive weddings, corporate, etc.) you can still do well, but you have to know your stuff and be able to solve your client's problems in a quick and creative way. A niche I've been able to exploit in recent times is art reproduction. Framing and lighting paintings & sculptures (especially installed art) is a complex thing in many cases, but these visual artists need photos for reproduction and advertising and will pay good money for good work. One way to get started is to shoot on commission - i.e. do the photos for the auction catalog, get a cut when it sells. This only works if the artist is good, but once your photos make one sale for them, they realize (1) your photos helped a whole lot and (2) it's much cheaper just to pay you a fee!


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## YuengLinger (Jan 23, 2015)

My concern is that with the dwindling of photojournalists, demand for rugged bodies and fast lenses will go down, and Canon will push more mediocre choices.

Yes, Canon still offers amazing stuff, but...


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## privatebydesign (Jan 23, 2015)

I am a Pro, that is, I earn all my income (nearly) from photography. As always Thom hits quite a few nails on the head, there are more than a couple of keen enthusiasts at my camera club (I have never been too self important to be in the local camera club) with much bigger investments in gear than me, and the rate that they turn it over for newer stuff never ceases to amaze me. 

I am gently leveraging into spheres that are still strong, and a few are actually growing, but the entire photographers business model has been in a state of flux for years and hasn't leveled out yet, and probably never will to the degree that it had for generations. 

But the truth is that clients that value results gravitate towards pros that can deliver, it is not about the gear (most of the time) it is about the consistency of the output. I recently did a 6 day trip to the Caribbean to shoot three villas, I was given two days at each location and it rained for three days, and I lost the batteries for my one camera before I even got there! But I delivered and the images were good enough to spearhead a new advertising campaign over and above the actual reason for the shoots. Now I am no big shot, indeed I freely admit to being an awful businessman, but my ability to deliver in adverse conditions rises me above the level of those enthusiasts who don't want the stress or have the aptitude for that kind of pressure.


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## klickflip (Jan 23, 2015)

Depends what pro area of photography your are looking at and comparing it with enthusiast etc. 
Seems like he is referring to stock and mass market subject imagery that anyone can get access to shoot. 

For me there's no contest and I would not enter into any business area that there might be. I generally choose my clients and provide specialist images that not many enthusiasts could supply. But aside from comparing what images someone can make / provide , but there's the BIG aspect of it all is proper clients will pay for a decent service, especially for unique images or knowing that someone will without fail turn out to a job and deliver effortlessly and with style evey time no matter what the brief is. Its not just about taking the pictures there's often the drama you have to create or sometimes minimise completely to make the job run how they would like. 
Then turnaround the images the next day all processed really nicely. 

Sometimes I'll quote on a city scape, city lifestyle or landscape image and be quite honest that that there are probably plenty on stock that would be good enough for there needs and budget. Unless they are really wanting to create something unique, say some models with their product in a particular place or maybe get me to push it to a particular style but if it's more general vibe image then stock will do. 

Being photographer is not just being able to take great images in the street, landscape, festival , gig etc.. thats where you learn as an amateur to deal with natural environments then next stage is to craft studio and location lighting to be able to create a particular mood , look & feel on demand no matter what the challenges are. Now thats something not many enthusiasts no matter how good can make the jump to quickly. 
Theres also the business side where being able to quote& organise shoots well comes into play, then there's the accounting side of it all. Some years its good to buy equipment and some years its better to hold off depending on tax, selling current equipment vs buying what just to or what may come out in few months.


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## Besisika (Jan 23, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> My concern is that with the dwindling of photojournalists, demand for rugged bodies and fast lenses will go down, and Canon will push more mediocre choices.
> 
> Yes, Canon still offers amazing stuff, but...


I, actually, see it in the opposite direction and share more the writer's opinion.
There was a time when I was convinced that cellphones and low end DSLR would slowly kill the pro photography, but not anymore; it would be the enthusiasts.
Not a long time ago, you would need to assist someone in order to gain access to mid-level knowledge. Talking to few pro photographers here in Montreal, they told me that they all used to assist big names before them.
You don't have to spend that many years anymore, especially if you are gifted. Given the availability of that knowledge online, provided by the pros themselves (workshop) as well as sponsors (B&H, sekonic, ...) all you need is practice and today's enthusiasts can easily access to that practice because they don't have to be paid much. In fact, they would even do it for free for the sake of chance to practice.
On the other end, customers, with their budged cuts, are willing to take that chance.
In my eyes, only high-end - high budget pro photography will survive. Here, they won't hire you unless you and your team have been proven well by solid references. You want to jump in, you will need to assist someone big in order to be "seen".
Everything else will be consumed by enthusiasts, be it a learning young photographer or an older passionate geek. 
I am one of them, photography relaxes me after long work days or weeks, so why would I refuse an opportunity to shoot? All I need is just to be able to get back some of what I paid to fund my gear - I don't have to sustain any business need. In fact, I don't even need a well-built marketing campaign: the word of mouth is enough. The more enthusiasts exist, the less customers left for the pro to sustain their businesses.

On the other end, the consumers are getting pulled into the group of enthusiasts as time goes.
So yes, I share most of his opinion.


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## Tinky (Jan 23, 2015)

I am a pro (working in video) I am an enthusiast when it comes to stills.

I laughed at the bit about his pal 'moving into' video. They are worlds apart.


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## monkey44 (Jan 23, 2015)

Without taking issue pro or con with the article or the comments above, one of the major impacts that hit the pro market (Me = a photojournalist here, but lots of Art shots and AD shoots as well) -- the fee, the pay, the amount clients are willing / able to pay for our work got fewer in number and less in fees.

Once the DSLR hit the hands of amateurs or enthusiasts - so many simply wanted to see their names in a magazine or newspaper, or anywhere else, and the fact it most often a freebie - simply KILLED the pro marker in a lot of venues. IF you hit that button enough times ( and if the quality e-venues lessened) you'll hit an image "good enough" for the web-based outlets.

THEN: The transition to internet in so many venues -- e-zones, e-news, e-ads, e-art, etc -- and the demand for quality hit the tank too. We were once paid in the area (depending ??) but anywhere from $100-$200 per shot published, and often $500 or more for a cover shot in a general subject magazine. When internet publishing and the "professional-consumer shutter-button pusher" emerged, and the magazine and news media budgets hit the tank as well, and other than high-end very established journalists, the rest simply drowned in pennies per image. 

I consider myself one of the lucky ones that survived in this field when this conflict emerged, as I had continuing /repeat clients, and in addition provided the words and images as a package, and wrote in some specialty fields that kept writers without that specific experience out of my niche ... Very lucky in one sense ... 

But, I'm pretty certain image values declined due to the web based media, which had a huge effect on the photography field ... and in some cases a by-product of that pushed a larger number of good photographers into a smaller number of "jobs" because the alternative was to change careers. Sot he competition for the available work increased. Not a great choice for some who love the work, and spent time and effort and funds gaining that education and experience.


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## eml58 (Jan 23, 2015)

An interesting article, I think nothing new here though, just a well written article.

I imagine I fall into the "enthusiast" area, with some caveats, I Photograph for my own enjoyment, I have never tried to sell what I produce, and my Photography fuels my other serious vice, travel. 

I do agree with Hogan though regards the difficulty today for the "Pro" photographers, wedding Photographers in particular, it's a pity these Guys don't get called back in to Photograph the "divorce" as well as the "Marriage", it would allow a doubling of revenue from what I can see today.

In the areas of Wildlife Photography I don't see too many "Pro" photographers surviving this Market without running "Workshops", it has become the bread & butter of their existence, actual sales of Prints a very distant second.

"Private" made a very interesting & pertinent point regards his own perceived lack of business acumen affecting his bottom line, it's the one area where I've felt I have been able to help several of my "Pro" Photographer friends, all exceptional Photographers & genuinely nice People, but as is often the case where Youth & skill are present, not had the time to develop the Business Skills to turn their Photography skills into something that makes Money, consistently. And this is not I believe a difficulty experienced by the few, It's from what I've seen affecting a lot of very talented Professional Photographers.

And Hogan's point regards Apple etc & the development of better & better phone cameras etc is to me a cause for some sadness, I like the fact that "Good Photography" still requires some skill, still requires some better equipment, for me it will be a truly sad day when someone can take an iPhone, point it in the general direction of a subject, take no trouble over focus, settings, time of day, etc etc, because no matter how badly you stuff up the shot, you can just make all the adjustments in "Post" and end up with a wonderful Image, sort of takes the shine out of why we currently enjoy what we do.


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## c.d.embrey (Jan 23, 2015)

Tinky said:


> I am a pro (working in video) I am an enthusiast when it comes to stills.
> 
> I laughed at the bit about his pal 'moving into' video. They are worlds apart.



There are many middle-of-the-road-pros *"moving into video"* as competition heats up in the stills market. They don't know much (or anything) about continuity or editing, but they have huge egos. And they whore up prices  sorta like Craig's List Wedding photographers 

BTW I'm retired IATSE. I remember one show where the script girl was arguing with the Director and DP over screen direction. She may have lost, but an hour later the DP told the Director that she was right. So they re-shot the last hours work


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## c.d.embrey (Jan 23, 2015)

eml58 said:


> And Hogan's point regards Apple etc & the development of better & better phone cameras etc is to me a cause for some sadness, I like the fact that "Good Photography" still requires some skill, ...



Time marches on! PJs are using different cameras today than what was used to shoot the US Civil War (1861-65) or the Crimean War (1853-56). Some even use iPhones  For those of you interested in *War Photography* here's a link to Wikipedia's article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_photography

BTW it takes skill/talent to get good shots with an iPhone. And there are more than a few really excellent iPhotos around. You may have even seen some without realizing it.


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## GDub (Jan 23, 2015)

I'm an amateur with skills




.


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## Diko (Jan 24, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> ...But the truth is that clients that value results gravitate towards *pros that can deliver*, it is not about the gear (most of the time) it is about *the consistency of the output*.


I myself quite share the above quoted. 



klickflip said:


> Depends what pro area of photography your are looking at and comparing it with enthusiast etc.
> Seems like he is referring to stock and mass market subject imagery that anyone can get access to shoot.
> 
> For me there's no contest and I would not enter into any business area that there might be. I will deliver effortlessly and with style every time no matter what the brief is. Its not just about taking the pictures there's often the drama you have to create or sometimes minimise completely to make the job run how they would like.
> Then turnaround the images the next day all processed really nicely.


Exactly the same here. 

And that is why I do share in about 90% the opinion on how the *Pro* & *Enthusiast* are shaped. And though *Thom* DOES put the *Enthusiast* next to *Amateur* I tend to disagree.

IMO we do have the *PRO* that works for a bare existence and *Tim Wallace* among many other colleagues do shares the opinion that commercial photography is 80% business. However I believe that every *PRO* should be also an *Enthusiast* to some extend. 

The market is oversaturated with generally the same pictures. More and more people on *FaceBook* already know how to make a descent portrait or a landscape. I hope there are enough people among you that DO recall how photos on *FB* used to look like. Then phones upgraded. DSLRs became more and more affordable. YouTube and many other tutorials were made and people learned HOW actually to make great photos. 

So general *PRO* with boring same style is not a good idea for business. True - a PRO will deliver 100% a consistent output, but at some point that very same person has to become more of a *Enthusiast* in order to experiment. That can make him/her even a trend setter. A name-brand.



c.d.embrey said:


> BTW it takes skill/talent to get good shots with an iPhone. And there are more than a few really excellent iPhotos around. You may have even seen some without realizing it.



I showed on many occasions that with an iPhone or an Android one can make photos that are impossible to be made with a DSLR with a huge LENS. Time will come soon. RAWs are already available on both platforms. Now we need I guess an iteration or two (five at most) to get the DR (I do my HDR manually with PS after a nice bracketing) and faster and more sensitive focus. 

Aside from size occasion-wise it is the same as in the article:


> I’ve written before about any animal interaction in a National Park being more likely captured by an amateur than a pro. It’s a numbers game: there are more amateurs in the park with cameras than pros. And given the rise of smartphones, that has gotten incredibly worse, as basically a pro operating in public spaces trying to take unique images is now competing against everyone, not just other pros.



Photography is not what it used to be... And it is a little mess. 

New clients sometimes believe they know what a nice photo is and ignore the consistency of the output that only a *PRO* can deliver without a risk. No matter if it rains or not.

I had a few such occasions. And I had to fix and finalize projects that were a few days away from the deadline. "Today" to deliver what some amateur had to deliver "yesterday". Or whose post production was awful or just disappeared...

Never underestimate the need of a versatile clientele ;-)

*EDIT*: <_Does anyone know how to remove the VigLinks_>


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2015)

I'm a professional...just not in the field of photography. 

I agree generally with Hogan's article, though.


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## TexPhoto (Jan 24, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> I'm a professional...just not in the field of photography.
> 
> I agree generally with Hogan's article, though.



Yup. I sell my photography, and make a very comfortable living. But these 2 things are unrelated. My stock sales pay for some of my equipment. And my sports photography business gets me into many pro and college games for free! My 9 to 5 (mostly) is 97% of my income, has insurance etc.


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## Dylan777 (Jan 24, 2015)

I consider myself as "enthusiast", not because I want to look or compete with the PRO.

I want the best gear that can provide best IQ @ the price I can afford.


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## Tinky (Jan 24, 2015)

c.d.embrey said:


> Tinky said:
> 
> 
> > I am a pro (working in video) I am an enthusiast when it comes to stills.
> ...



+1
Yes. 

I pointed out on one set that the 'DoP' was crossing the line. They replied that they thought they had been perfectly polite.

I agreed that they had been and left it at that. I was getting paid either way. Above my pay grade etc.

The DSLR revolution has spawned a many golems. I trained as a cameraman 15 years ago. Now everybody wants to be a DoP. And they 'can' learn how online.


















PMSL


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## Maximilian (Jan 24, 2015)

Hi Diko! 

Thanks for sharing that article. I think it is quite true. 

When I read through it I could find a lot statements where I could say "yes, had the same thought" or "thinking about it, yes similar opinion". 

What made me laugh and cry at the same time was this line:
"_Digital gear has been an incredibly fast moving target. Noise levels and dynamic range we thought were fine for pro work 10 years ago seem absurd these days, at least if we’re to believe all the Internet angst._"
Reminds me of some gear "enthusiasts" on this and other fora. :-X

When it comes to put me in the right place, I can clearly say: enthusiast 
(but not one of those mentioned above)


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## Lawliet (Jan 24, 2015)

Tinky said:


> I pointed out on one set that the 'DoP' was crossing the line. They replied that they thought they had been perfectly polite.



At least it's only a narrative violation, put him in the grips boots and someone's head might end up right on the mark...


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## Sabaki (Jan 24, 2015)

I consider myself an amateur/enthusiast 

There are two considerations I make when I tip my hat to the professionals and it's something that they earned through an investment of time and application of their expertise. 

1. Shooting to a brief in a limited time: Taking those sunset wedding pics or being told you only have 4 hours at a venue. Shooting a venue without the luxury of scouting a location. 
Then you still need to hit the shots as briefed by the client. 
2. On location lighting: Oh mama!!! 2, 4, 8, 12 strobes on location, getting exposure right? Experience right there. All the YouTube videos one watches cannot make you an expert on this. 

I have fairly high standards for my photography. I'm still learning so that benchmark changes as time goes on. But I can sit whole day or even a number of days somewhere and shoot. Then I can decide which images I like and delete the rest. 

A pro, who's bread and butter is wholly or partly earned through photography does not have such luxury.


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## Diko (Jan 27, 2015)

Here is some alternative *PoV*


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## AcutancePhotography (Jan 27, 2015)

I question the premise that a Professional and an Enthusiast are mutually exclusive.

Of course any discussion about professionals is worthless unless the term professional is defined. Ask three people what a professional means and you will get five answers. 

To some it is simply earning money. To others it is more complex than that. 

Me? I am just a frickin hobbyist trying to find time and money, despite real life, to do what I enjoy. ;D


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## AcutancePhotography (Jan 27, 2015)

"Thus, overall the group [enthusiasts] can almost always find something that their camera maker of choice isn’t serving them with to complain about. "

Based on this. Canonrumors.com is a site for enthusiasts. ;D


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## mackguyver (Jan 27, 2015)

AcutancePhotography said:


> I question the premise that a Professional and an Enthusiast are mutually exclusive.
> 
> Of course any discussion about professionals is worthless unless the term professional is defined. Ask three people what a professional means and you will get five answers.
> 
> ...


In some contest rules, I've read a pretty simple way to classify - at least for Americans. If you list "Photographer" as your profession on you 1040 tax form, then you are a pro. 

...and if you like taking pictures, then you are an enthusiast...or a enthusiastic pro


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## Diko (Jan 29, 2015)

mackguyver said:


> In some contest rules, I've read a pretty simple way to classify - at least for Americans. If you list "Photographer" as your profession on you 1040 tax form, then you are a pro.


 Actually that makes quite a lot of sense.


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## iaind (Jan 29, 2015)

Dylan777 said:


> I consider myself as "enthusiast", not because I want to look or compete with the PRO.
> 
> I want the best gear that can provide best IQ @ the price I can afford.


#

Couldn't agree more


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## Diko (Jan 29, 2015)

*More info on the topic*

*Study Finds that Professionally Captured Photos Are More Memorable Than Amateur Ones*







_*Original Source from NPPA*_
*Please note:* _Part One in a four-part weekly series_


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## dawgfanjeff (Jan 29, 2015)

iaind said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > I consider myself as "enthusiast", not because I want to look or compete with the PRO.
> ...



Same here...I don't feel I have anything to prove vs pros shots. I am not a wannabe. 

I'd say that (other than getting paid for it), the biggest differentiator of pro vs most enthusiasts I know is all about the consistency and dependability. We all watch golfers and think, "I can make that putt, . Yeah...but you can't make it 9/10 with millions of people watching. You hire a pro b/c they bring backup bodies, drag along a helper, and will bust their ass deliver you a great product so they can get paid and get referrals. 

I have filled in for pros on various occasions and delivered photobooks, prom pictures, etc...that people were thrilled with, and I did it for free b/c we were friends and family, but let's face it-If my camera had broken down, or it was a totally crappy day, or I were too hungover, it wouldn't have happened. 

And therein lies the biggest threat to pros I know...enthusiasts that will happily do it for free as long as it's not crucial to get the shots.


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## mnclayshooter (Jan 29, 2015)

I fall somewhere between consumer and enthusiast on his scale. 

I'm not interested in selling photos, nor do I think I'm a pro. I want to document my travels, events, life etc and do it well enough that I can be proud of it. I bought good enough equipment such that I can overcome some of the pitfalls of p/s or camera phone use but I also didn't have to sell a kidney to get it.

If I ever chose to try to sell a photo to be "pro", then I have, at least at a modest level, the right equipment to make that more of a reality than a dream.


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## Diko (Jan 29, 2015)

And EVEN more on the topic:


*Results from Photoshelter Survey Show Photographers’ Outlook for 2015*


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## mnclayshooter (Jan 29, 2015)

I had a different thought... Similar to Neuro's post. 


I am a licensed professional by day... but not in photography. However, I take photos OF my work-products for portfolio and marketing purposes ... so... am I then, by definition a "professional photographer"?


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## Tinky (Jan 29, 2015)

eh. No.

"Are you a professional photographer?"

"I'm a medical doctor who's hobby is photography"

"Ah I'm a photographer who's hobby is surgery.."


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## NancyP (Jan 30, 2015)

No surprises here, another enthusiast on board. Yes, I daydream about going to exotic places to photograph unusual wildlife, or even having extended time to camp locally and photograph ordinary wildlife. If I were to try to do something full time in conservation, I'd inevitably be looking at the science, measuring genetic diversity of local populations or some such (based on past proficiency in biomedical bench research). Photography is a hobby, a tool with which to examine the world around me, and a creative art. I admit I like learning about process and enjoy using gear (hobby), I readily admit to taking "record" shots that are not necessarily aesthetically pleasing but which demonstrate some anatomic or behavioral (or geological or...) feature of the subject, and I enjoy trying to make photos that "feel satisfying", that attempt to preserve a mood that I had while observing a scene. I am an introverted geek, not a great personality profile for running a service business. Professional photography would be a bad fit for me, and I identified at a very young age (high school) that whatever I did, I was likely to become an academic. So I am a medical doctor (pathologist) whose hobby is photography. I do some photography as part of developing a teaching image set - and I promise not to show them to you!


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## mnclayshooter (Jan 30, 2015)

Tinky said:


> eh. No.
> 
> "Are you a professional photographer?"
> 
> ...



Sorry - there was a pun intended... albeit a bad one... but none-the-less. ...shooting photos of professional work...


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## Jeffrey (Jan 30, 2015)

I'm very much the enthusiast; 1D-X with lots of glass, not interested in shooting video, travel to shoot landscape, nature, wildlife, and have no intention of trying to sell any of my work. In fact, I don't even have a website. I have no interest whatsoever in shooting weddings, portraits, and the like. 

I'm becoming a bit more careful about having to purchase the "latest and the greatest" when the 1D-X is such a great camera for the shooting I do. I'm keen on the new 600mm lens though. Simply fantastic.

Lately I've been experimenting with different papers for my Epson 3880 printer and am becoming more and more interested in printing. I don't print much except when a friend asks for a print of one of my images. 

My chances of turning pro? Zero. I'm having too much fun being an enthusiast!


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## anthonyd (Jan 30, 2015)

klickflip said:


> Its not just about taking the pictures there's often the drama you have to create or sometimes minimise completely to make the job run how they would like. Then turnaround the images the next day all processed really nicely.



+1

I am clearly an enthusiast as I spend more money on photography than I make out of it, but I do payed work when the opportunity arises. My gear is inferior to that of a pro, but all my clients have always been "impressed" by the size of my camera/lenses (which for this audience are small to average). My pictures and post-processing are probably worse than those of a good pro, but they are good enough to usually get a "wow" from people and have my pictures decorate their walls. However, I would not even want to take a job where the client needs drama or needs to minimize drama, I won't promise consistency, I won't bring a backup photographer or gear, and I will certainly not deliver processed pictures in less than a week or two. That's where the pro differs from the amateur, not the artistic ability, but the ability to treat photography as a serious profession rather than a hobby.

And one more note, I don't want to prove that I am "as good as pros", I don't have "plenty of time on my hands" and my income is certainly not disposable. I put my hard earned money into photography because it's the hobby I love, just as other people buy expensive cars, clothes, golf clubs, what have you.


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