# Canon officially announces the Canon EOS R system



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 5, 2018)

> MELVILLE, N.Y., September 5, 2018 – Canon U.S.A. Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today announced the next revolution in the company’s long history of innovative and award-winning camera systems, the EOS R system featuring the newly designed RF mount. Recognizing the need to advance optical design, the Company sought to create a versatile and powerful new system that supports all current EF, EF-S, TS-E and MP-E lensesi, and also provides the optical advancements and engineering flexibility to build upon for years to come.
> 
> When Canon set forth to develop a new interchangeable lens camera system, they focused on three core optical principles: high-image quality, high-specification performance, and compact design. Recognizing that optics is the foundation for any camera system, the RF mount was conceived to open new doors in optical design. Canon’s new RF mount features the same size diameter as the EF mount (54mm) and shorter back focus distance. This allows for lenses...



Continue reading...


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## MartinF. (Sep 5, 2018)

I still have the feeling of being left behind with my 6D and my EF lenses exactly as I was in '87 with my AE1-P and my FD lenses.
I understand the need for leap jumping but damn, I hate adaptors. An how about my planned investment in a 24-70 f/2.8 II L and the 135 f/2.0 L ? Will I do that now? Probably not. Or maybe by some used ones.
My guess is, that with this launch Canon is going all in on EOS-R, and we will probably see a lot more new RF mount cameras. I will be surprised if we will ever see an 7D or a 6D mkIII. We will might see a new 5D and 1D, but that will be it. The rest will RF cameras an probably with IBIS too.
The control-ring and the control bar (replacing the control wheel) looks smart. Very smart.
I will probably keep my beloved 6D until it is totally worn out, and then buy a RF mount camera, and RF 2.0 or 2.8 "standard-zoom" and a few primes, and the reuse my old EF lenses - maybe even buy some extra adaptors to be fixed on the most used lenses.
Canon is probably doing the right thing with the RF mount - I just have to take it in.....


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## freejay (Sep 5, 2018)

This is my new tool!!! No IBIS (sad) but Eye-AF and C-Log! That's a no-brainer for me.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 5, 2018)

> An upcoming free firmware update will enable silent shutter in continuous shooting mode as well.



So the 1st batches of the camera are now out but doesn't have the latest firmware.


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## freejay (Sep 5, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> I still have the feeling of being left behind with my 6D and my EF lenses exactly as I was in '87 with my AE1-P and my FD lenses.
> I understand the need for leap jumping but damn, I hate adaptors. An how about my planned investment in a 24-70 f/2.8 II L and the 135 f/2.0 L ? Will I do that now? Probably not. Or maybe by some used ones.
> My guess is, that with this launch Canon is going all in on EOS-R, and we will probably see a lot more new RF mount cameras. I will be surprised if we will ever see an 7D or a 6D mkIII. We will might see a new 5D and 1D, but that will be it. The rest will RF cameras an probably with IBIS too.
> The control-ring and the control bar (replacing the control wheel) looks smart. Very smart.
> ...


Don't worry: A lot of photographers will keep their DSLRs and there will be new lenses for this system a long time.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 5, 2018)

~11.7MP crop mode when an EF-S lens is attached.


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## gmrza (Sep 5, 2018)

freejay said:


> Don't worry: A lot of photographers will keep their DSLRs and there will be new lenses for this system a long time.



I suspect Canon will continue to build EF lenses for a long time. Especially for the "big white" category, it will make sense to focus on EF and use an adaptor. It primarily makes sense for Canon to initially focus on the smaller lenses which will be the ones that users who value a more compact system will be looking for.

The people who should probably be more concerned are the owners of EOS M systems. The bit about support for EF-S lenses almost seems to imply that the EOS R system will have include APS-C bodies. What will happen to the EOS M range and EF-M mount?


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## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

Complete specs here:
https://store.canon.com.au/media/attachments/EOS_R_Camera_Brochure.pdf
(from https://store.canon.com.au/digital-cameras/eos-r-body.html )


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## freejay (Sep 5, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> ~11.7MP crop mode when an EF-S lens is attached.


Shouldn't that be 18.75MP? 30 / 1.6 (Canon's crop factor) = 18.75


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## AUGS (Sep 5, 2018)

freejay said:


> Shouldn't that be 18.75MP? 30 / 1.6 (Canon's crop factor) = 18.75



Actually, it is 11.7MP. You need to apply the crop factor in both axes. 30 / (1.6H*1.6V) = 11.7.


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## Haydn1971 (Sep 5, 2018)

Interesting features, especially the control ring on the lens and the touch panel on the back of the body have the potential to change how we use our cameras - I suspect Canon have no fixed long term plan with EF-M, RF or EF mounts right now, it will depend on how the market takes it, each mount will appeal to different customers and differently in each market, I see a long life ahead for all three mounts... EF-S ? I'm less convinced this will last, but again, the market will dictate! Like it, great for some coming from another brand or from crop format, but with the gear I have and my casual use, I'd have to think long and hard about moving over to a native RF set of lenses.. the real interesting development will be seeing how the more consumer and pro camera ranges develop with this new mount - because right now I'm seeing three ranges of cameras each appealing to different needs - great diversification move by Canon, good call in my eyes


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## gmon750 (Sep 5, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> So the 1st batches of the camera are now out but doesn't have the latest firmware.


They're not out yet. They've been announced, but not yet available to order. Why not wait to see what the production camera ships with?


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## VOTOXY (Sep 5, 2018)

It's a pass for me, I'll wait for the higher end model with IBIS, 2 card slots, and 1080p120.
These were the 3 features I needed along side eyeAF...
Do you guys know when can we expect an announcement of the higher end model ?


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## Isaacheus (Sep 5, 2018)

Uhs-2 looks good


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## gmon750 (Sep 5, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> I still have the feeling of being left behind with my 6D and my EF lenses exactly as I was in '87 with my AE1-P and my FD lenses.
> I understand the need for leap jumping but damn, I hate adaptors. An how about my planned investment in a 24-70 f/2.8 II L and the 135 f/2.0 L ? Will I do that now? Probably not. Or maybe by some used ones.
> My guess is, that with this launch Canon is going all in on EOS-R, and we will probably see a lot more new RF mount cameras. I will be surprised if we will ever see an 7D or a 6D mkIII. We will might see a new 5D and 1D, but that will be it. The rest will RF cameras an probably with IBIS too.
> The control-ring and the control bar (replacing the control wheel) looks smart. Very smart.
> ...



Canon just announced more EF lenses and while I'm certainly happy to see where Canon is going with this camera and the R-mount, nothing compels me to get rid of my 5DM3 just yet.

Get me a dual-slot version and better battery life and then I'll consider it. I do love the new lenses though. I suppose in a couple more years, Canon will give me reasons to upgrade.

The dSLR market is not even remotely being retired for the near future... but I do believe in 5 years (at most) will see Canon focusing most of their attention on the R market.

Great first camera mirrorless FF camera though. I look forward to seeing serious reviews of it when the production versions come out.


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## PerKr (Sep 5, 2018)

looking forward to seeing hands-ons for this. Love the mobile editing idea. But one major thing there. iPad only. wtf? I know apple products are popular among photographers and graphic designers but come on...


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## AlP (Sep 5, 2018)

EOS R System white paper with lens MTF here:

https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/misc-pages/eos-r/pdf/canon_eos_r_white_paper.pdf


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

So there *is *eye-detect AF. And no crop in 4K.
Good stuff, pity there's no IBIS, dual card and - slightly disappointing - no GPS. Still sounds like a better option against Z6, considering the lenses and AF.

But what's the price?


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## tzn (Sep 5, 2018)

VOTOXY said:


> It's a pass for me, I'll wait for the higher end model with IBIS, 2 card slots, and 1080p120.
> These were the 3 features I needed along side eyeAF...



Same here but there is one thing. I just learned that Fuji enabled 1080p120 for it's X-T2 with a firmware upgrade. Not sure if Canon usually does this or not. Also Fuji X-T3 is coming tomorrow I believe, maybe it worth to check.


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## Rubz (Sep 5, 2018)

VOTOXY said:


> It's a pass for me, I'll wait for the higher end model with IBIS, 2 card slots, and 1080p120.
> These were the 3 features I needed along side eyeAF...


Well im in the same boat, ibis and 1080p at 120 and 2 slots. And I think my long wait is over, a7 III just ticks all those boxes for me at a price lower than the "lower end' EOSR. Will take a hit on my canon EF lenses, but it is bound to happen with switchingto native RF. Nonetheless a very sexy mirrorless from canon, it will make many photographers very happy.


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## rjbray01 (Sep 5, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Well, its got most of what I was hoping for ... high resolution viewfinder, eye AF and promising/oustanding ergonomics.

I really, really hope the EVF is superfast, and the diopter adjustment is actually usable, (unlike the M5 in both cases).

But, assuming they have attended to these then ...

Whilst this is not the camera to fit to my 85mm 1.4 Art nor my 70-200 f/2.8, I think my wife would love to use it for low-weight family and travel photography when coupled with the new R 24-105 f/4.

Overall, a very good start Canon.

8.5 out of 10 on features.

And, 10 if you can bring out the same but in a 5D body size with IBIS in 2019.


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## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

AlP said:


> EOS R System white paper with lens MTF here:
> 
> https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/misc-pages/eos-r/pdf/canon_eos_r_white_paper.pdf



*Referral Denied*
You don't have permission to access "http://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/misc-pages/eos-r/pdf/canon_eos_r_white_paper.pdf" on this server.
Reference #24.9e991002.1536136903.6084cfa


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## memoriaphoto (Sep 5, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> Well, its got most of what I was hoping for ... high resolution viewfinder (really hope its very fast) eye AF and promising/oustanding ergonomics.
> 
> Whilst this is not the camera to fit to my 85mm 1.4 Art nor my 70-200 f/2.8, I think my wife would love to use it for low-weight family and travel photography when coupled with the new R 24-105 f/4.
> 
> ...



Word


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 5, 2018)

gmon750 said:


> They're not out yet. They've been announced, but not yet available to order. Why not wait to see what the production camera ships with?



If it's ready for delivery by October, then the first batches are already out of the Japan factory with an older firmware. Read the press release above, it clearly states the upcoming firmware *update* would add a currently unavailable feature.



> . An upcoming free firmware update will enable silent shutter in continuous shooting mode as well.



It's implied that the newest firmware won't make it before the shipping of the first batch/es of the body.


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## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> And no crop in 4K.



Is this confirmed?

Edit: other sites are reporting a 1.7x crop for 4k.


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## AlP (Sep 5, 2018)

bbb34 said:


> *Referral Denied*
> You don't have permission to access "http://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/misc-pages/eos-r/pdf/canon_eos_r_white_paper.pdf" on this server.
> Reference #24.9e991002.1536136903.6084cfa



Try from here:
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...cm_sp=full-frame-mirrorless-_-nav-_-resources


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## PerKr (Sep 5, 2018)

is it just me or does the BG-E22 look like it came off a different camera?


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## VOTOXY (Sep 5, 2018)

Rubz said:


> Well im in the same boat, ibis and 1080p at 120 and 2 slots. And I think my long wait is over, a7 III just ticks all those boxes for me at a price lower than the "lower end' EOSR. Will take a hit on my canon EF lenses, but it is bound to happen with switchingto native RF. Nonetheless a very sexy mirrorless from canon, it will make many photographers very happy.



About to jumpship too... Kinda fed up that Canon didn't take the lead of the market with this one.. I really hoped they did.. They had the best opportunity to do it and catch up.
Still hesitating to be honest.. but yeah, a7SIII is around the corner, and it will be groundbreaking (again) I'm sure. Might go for the combo a7RIII and a7SIII..


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## weixing (Sep 5, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> Is this confirmed?


Hi,
4K is auto cropped to "_Super 35mm-like resolution_"... may be to match the look and feel of their cinema camera output??

Have a nice day.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 5, 2018)

PerKr said:


> is it just me or does the BG-E22 look like it came off a different camera?



Yeah, the last time I saw that distended grip look on a body is when they reused the BG-E2 grip intended for the 20D/30D and made it compatible for the differently shaped 40D. The grip looks too wide for the body.


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## lucuias (Sep 5, 2018)

So


weixing said:


> Hi,
> 4K is auto cropped to "_Super 35mm-like resolution_"... may be to match the look and feel of their cinema camera output??
> 
> Have a nice day.


So 4k is crop. So sad.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> Is this confirmed?



All the official specs are online, I couldn't find anything about crop in 4K. https://store.canon.com.au/media/attachments/EOS_R_Camera_Brochure.pdf


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## Maximilian (Sep 5, 2018)

So here we go.
Prices (US) seem to be quite reasonable, but of course cheaper would have been always better .

Total bummer - again - is that the kit (body+24-105) has the same MRSP than the individual prices summed up. (forget about that single $).
The only "advantage" you get is one box instead of two. *lol


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## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

RF - manual focus by wire
Let's see how that feels.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

Ah, missed it in the new, the price is 2300 USD for body only. So is it good or bad? Looks like there must be a higher-end camera as a 5D4 successor, released later on.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

Maximilian said:


> Total bummer - again - is that the kit (body+24-105) has the same MRSP than the individual prices summed up. (forget about that single $).
> The only "advantage" you get is one box instead of two. *lol



Actually the kits are sold in separate boxes, at least the ones I've seen before.


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## weixing (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> All the official specs are online, I couldn't find anything about crop in 4K. https://store.canon.com.au/media/attachments/EOS_R_Camera_Brochure.pdf


Hi,
It's here:
http://learn.usa.canon.com/resource...eos-r/eos-r-video-operation-and-control.shtml

Have a nice day.


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## Chaitanya (Sep 5, 2018)

Some good steps forward- USB charging+ type C connection, no more passive matrix lcd info panel, substantial grip, good 4k. Will wait for a year before getting one. Also finally a UHS-II SD slot though its still single slot.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> It's here:
> http://learn.usa.canon.com/resource...eos-r/eos-r-video-operation-and-control.shtml
> 
> Have a nice day.



Right, so there is crop in 4K. A bit disappointing. But I shoot video quite occasionally and don't really care much about crop in 4K.
Anyway I'm leaning towards waiting for a more advanced release, something like 5R (which I assume they're going to be releasing instead of 5DMkV).

EOS R is a 6DMkII successor from what I gather.


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## tomscott (Sep 5, 2018)

Im very excited to have a play with this. This will replace my 6DMKII for sure.


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## 1Zach1 (Sep 5, 2018)

I’m good with the specs, but that $2300 price I’m not a fan of. I guess I’ll see what the street price ends up being and how reviews go. Might just have to hold out for the 7D3.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 5, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> I still have the feeling of being left behind with my 6D and my EF lenses exactly as I was in '87 with my AE1-P and my FD lenses.
> I understand the need for leap jumping but damn, I hate adaptors. An how about my planned investment in a 24-70 f/2.8 II L and the 135 f/2.0 L ? Will I do that now? Probably not. Or maybe by some used ones.
> My guess is, that with this launch Canon is going all in on EOS-R, and we will probably see a lot more new RF mount cameras. I will be surprised if we will ever see an 7D or a 6D mkIII. We will might see a new 5D and 1D, but that will be it. The rest will RF cameras an probably with IBIS too.
> The control-ring and the control bar (replacing the control wheel) looks smart. Very smart.
> ...


Don't worry, as others already said, I expect Canon (and Nikon) to phase out their DSLR line gradually, not disruptive. As long as they sell enought DSLRs, they will update this line, but of course it'll slow down. They really had to move seriously in the ML business, otherwise they would have killed their ILC camera production within the next years.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 5, 2018)

“I was instantly impressed with how quickly the EOS R was able to focus,” remarked celebrated fashion photographer and Canon Explorer of Light Lindsay Adler. “Whether my subject was moving or I was shooting in near-complete darkness, I had no problem getting tack-sharp focus in every shot. It was a relief to know my gear wasn’t going to hold me back from executing my vision, but instead it would really help me to execute this vision.”

Now that sounds really interesting for low light photography. People will keep complaining about no IBIS and cropped 4K, but I think the EOS R system is really worth considering it.


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## fullstop (Sep 5, 2018)

gmrza said:


> The people who should probably be more concerned are the owners of EOS M systems. The bit about support for EF-S lenses almost seems to imply that the EOS R system will have include APS-C bodies. What will happen to the EOS M range and EF-M mount?



No, all it implies is that EOS R FF bodies will have a crop mode. There will be NO RF mount APS-C bodies. 

I am an EOS M / EF-M system owner and NOT concerned at all. Everything at Canon will be exactly as during the DSLR era: 
* 1 mount and lens-lineup for APS-C: EOS M, EF-M. Priority on very compact size, decent IQ, affordable price. 
* 1 mount and lens-lineup for FF: EOS R, RF. Priority on high IQ, high performance @ significantly more size and higher price. 

Only 1 footnote: RF lenses will not be mountable on EF-M. But, so what.


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## Maximilian (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Actually the kits are sold in separate boxes, at least the ones I've seen before.
> 
> 
> Maximilian said:
> ...


The kit boxes I know (Germany) from consumer and 5D cameras have one (robust) main/outer box with weaker internal boxes (the white boxes) for body and lens.
Or even no boxes but bubble foil.
To me this is not the point, but that a kit is pointless if you don't get a price advantage - already with THE MRSP.


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## exige24 (Sep 5, 2018)

Any word on Shooting rate with DP AF dropping to 2.2 FPS? That might be a deal breaker for this particular camera.


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## sid.safari (Sep 5, 2018)

Has Canon confirmed how many still Fps this introductory model will shoot? I keep seeing 5 fps and 8 fps depending on mode. For a wildlife photographer I'm hoping it's 8 fps in servo mode because otherwise it might just be a tad slow.


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## Eno (Sep 5, 2018)

First full size sample images (they look very good IMO): https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r/#Gallery

I'm very curious, does it have a crop in 4K or it uses the whole sensor width?


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## exige24 (Sep 5, 2018)

sid.safari said:


> Has Canon confirmed how many still Fps this introductory model will shoot? I keep seeing 5 fps and 8 fps depending on mode. For a wildlife photographer I'm hoping it's 8 fps in servo mode because otherwise it might just be a tad slow.


I heard somewhere with servo and DPAF enabled it's 2.2 FPS. Hope that garbage isn't true. LOL I can live with 5.


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

exige24 said:


> I heard somewhere with servo and DPAF enabled it's 2.2 FPS. Hope that garbage isn't true. LOL I can live with 5.


It's 2.2 FPS with DPRAW (twice as big RAW file with slightly higher DR and some spatial information).


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## exige24 (Sep 5, 2018)

Kit. said:


> It's 2.2 FPS with DPRAW (twice as big RAW file with slightly higher DR and some spatial information).


Gothcha. That means it's servo that drops it from 8 to 5?


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

Maximilian said:


> The kit boxes I know (Germany) from consumer and 5D cameras have one (robust) main/outer box with weaker internal boxes (the white boxes) for body and lens.
> Or even no boxes but bubble foil.
> To me this is not the point, but that a kit is pointless if you don't get a price advantage - already with THE MRSP.



Sure the number of boxes doesn't matter.
I believe 2299 is an RRP, we'll find it down to 2100 or so with promotions and discounnts and on grey market.


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## koenkooi (Sep 5, 2018)

Eno said:


> First full size sample images (they look very good IMO): https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r/#Gallery
> 
> I'm very curious, does it have a crop in 4K or it uses the whole sensor width?



Crop, from http://learn.usa.canon.com/resource...eos-r/eos-r-video-operation-and-control.shtml


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## fullstop (Sep 5, 2018)

The White paper contains a lot of good information. Especially on the RF lenses ... comparing them to EF lenses ... in surprisingly clear language. Not seen such clean cut "direct comparison to other Canon products" before in a Canon White paper. Recommended read.
https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/misc-pages/eos-r/pdf/canon_eos_r_white_paper.pdf

@neuroanatomist you may want to have a look at p. 22ff ... the new "Thin-type" Nano USM AF drive implemented in the RF 24-105 and optical performance compared to EF 24-105/4 L IS II and EF 24-105/3.5-6.3


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## Shutter Up (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> EOS R is a 6DMkII successor from what I gather.



No. It uses the same 30MP sensor from the 5D IV but with more phase detection. You can watch, one of Canon's promo videos directly comparing the EOS R imaging processor to the 5D IV.


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 5, 2018)

Body only in the UK £ 2,349, with RF 24-105mm f4L IS USM £ 3,269. Lens on its own £ 1,119 which is £ 100 more than EF version. Expensive and as normal well above US pricing including taking taxes into consideration. I won't be early adopter.


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## crashpc (Sep 5, 2018)

The EOS R looks very nice. Not for those prices though. I wonder If I should reconsider my hate to Sony, and go A7R...


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## Eno (Sep 5, 2018)

koenkooi said:


> Crop, from http://learn.usa.canon.com/resource...eos-r/eos-r-video-operation-and-control.shtml
> 
> View attachment 180174


Thank you for the info.


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## VOTOXY (Sep 5, 2018)

koenkooi said:


> Crop, from http://learn.usa.canon.com/resource...eos-r/eos-r-video-operation-and-control.shtml
> 
> View attachment 180174


Ewwwww that's a no no for me.
Bubye Canon


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 5, 2018)

fullstop said:


> The White paper contains a lot of good information. Especially on the RF lenses ... comparing them to EF lenses ... in surprisingly clear language. Not seen anything like it before in a Canon White paper. Recommended read.
> https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/misc-pages/eos-r/pdf/canon_eos_r_white_paper.pdf
> 
> @Neuro you may want to have a look at p. 22ff ... the new "Thin-type" Nano USM AF drive implemented in the RF 24-105 and optical performance compared to EF 24-105/4 L IS II and EF 24-105/3.5-6.3



Denied access. Maybe you want to publish or offer different link


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## Hector1970 (Sep 5, 2018)

Strange the FPS is not fully clarified as it’s a major factor if you are thinking of buying . Anything less that 5fps would look very bad. 5 is not great but would work for most uses. You would thing they somehow without firmware updates get the full FPS at AI servo


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## Firillu (Sep 5, 2018)

I have to say I was keen, especially with the rumours pointing to a great solution for keeping with the EF mount. I knew that wasn't quite impossible, but adapters suck. It's not great at all.

I have a 5DIV and 7D2 and a few L-series lenses. I'm keen to replace my ageing 16-35mmL, and I know that one advantage of mirrorless and is wide angle lenses can be designed better. They don't even make one yet for the RF and am sure it will come. 

If I buy any RF lenses, I can't use them on my EF bodies. I think for the time being I won't be buying or replacing my ageing lenses.

Also, there is nothing really there for me to say I have to have - yes it might be smaller and lighter, but lenses are still big and heavy, and that is not going to change. In body stabilisation would have been great, drench proof rather then weatherproof would have been great too.

The reality is that Canon (and Nikon) are about 10 years late with mirrorless.


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## exige24 (Sep 5, 2018)

VOTOXY said:


> Ewwwww that's a no no for me.
> Bubye Canon


Glad I just love me stills. Hello Canon and a new world of AF.


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## peters (Sep 5, 2018)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> 4K is auto cropped to "_Super 35mm-like resolution_"... may be to match the look and feel of their cinema camera output??
> 
> Have a nice day.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH NO GOD DAMN IT.
This was pretty much the ONLY feature that was REALY important to my. WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY? 
And they even sell it as a cool "automatic" feature. OMFG. Just give me 4k fullframe. Why is this so god damn difficult??? ARGH. I dont even ask for 60fps... just give me a fullframe 4k image. I could have said "okay" to EVERY other missing feature...

Overall this looks like a REALY great camera, there is pretty much every feature in it that I like and the R-Mount with adapters for EF looks like a decent option for my EF lenses (better than 3rd party adapters for Sony). But WHYYYY The ****** did they not implement 4k fullframe?


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

Shutter Up said:


> No. It uses the same 30MP sensor from the 5D IV but with more phase detection. You can watch, one of Canon's promo videos directly comparing the EOS R imaging processor to the 5D IV.



Yep but having the same processor or sensor doesn't mean it's the same class as 5DMkIV. Dual card slot is a borderline to me. I believe (based on the previous rumors) there will be another 40+Mp camera with pro-facing specs. Likely with dual card slot. 

If not, I'm personally still waiting, this camera won't give me a drastic improvement in IQ, especially if it's the same sensor as my 5DMkIV.


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## exige24 (Sep 5, 2018)

Firillu said:


> I have to say I was keen, especially with the rumours pointing to a great solution for keeping with the EF mount. I knew that wasn't quite impossible, but adapters suck. It's not great at all.
> 
> I have a 5DIV and 7D2 and a few L-series lenses. I'm keen to replace my ageing 16-35mmL, and I know that one advantage of mirrorless and is wide angle lenses can be designed better. They don't even make one yet for the RF and am sure it will come.
> 
> ...




I think the adapter is a great intermediate solution as it actually adds functionality to your old lenses and is native software.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 5, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> Denied access. Maybe you want to publish or offer different link



strange. Link works for me.

how about this one?
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...cm_sp=full-frame-mirrorless-_-nav-_-resources


----------



## exige24 (Sep 5, 2018)

peters said:


> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH NO GOD DAMN IT.
> This was pretty much the ONLY feature that was REALY important to my. WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?
> And they even sell it as a cool "automatic" feature. OMFG. Just give me 4k fullframe. Why is this so god damn difficult??? ARGH. I dont even ask for 60fps... just give me a fullframe 4k image. I could have said "okay" to EVERY other missing feature...
> 
> Overall this looks like a REALY great camera, there is pretty much every feature in it that I like and the R-Mount with adapters for EF looks like a decent option for my EF lenses (better than 3rd party adapters for Sony). But WHYYYY The ****** did they not implement 4k fullframe?


Yeah that sucks, but this is their gimped version of a body. In other areas too. I think that made my wait for a pro version a lot easier. I LOVE their direction though. Dat UI and Destroyed Sony's and Nikkon's AF on their first attempt. Quite a feat. Definitively have NO desire to go to Sony now. If that was the sole purpose of this camera, mission accomplished. They showed a competitive, bright future for my lenses. Finally. Thank you Canon. Haha


----------



## fullstop (Sep 5, 2018)

Firillu said:


> The reality is that Canon (and Nikon) are about 10 years late with mirrorless.



2012. It is six (6) years "only".


----------



## Go Wild (Sep 5, 2018)

Waait....i can see in a video that there is an electronic stabilization in the sensor witch can be combined with IS in the lens, for video!! So there is in fact image stabilization in the sensor!!


----------



## exige24 (Sep 5, 2018)

Go Wild said:


> Waait....i can see in a video that there is an electronic stabilization in the sensor witch can be combined with IS in the lens, for video!! So there is in fact image stabilization in the sensor!!


I don't think that's true. They would have been blowing it up. Clip?


----------



## bitm2007 (Sep 5, 2018)

Are there likely to be any disadvantages when using EF lenses on EOS R via the mount adapter, reduced maximum aperture, crop factor, auto focus preformance etc ?


----------



## koenkooi (Sep 5, 2018)

Go Wild said:


> Waait....i can see in a video that there is an electronic stabilization in the sensor witch can be combined with IS in the lens, for video!! So there is in fact image stabilization in the sensor!!



I think that is the _digital_ stabilization, which will crop the picture slightly and move it around digitally. IIRC the newer EOS M cameras already have that.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> Denied access.


Denied _referral_.

Try "open in new private window".


----------



## Stuart (Sep 5, 2018)

If the EF adopter offers rear drop in lenses, then rear dropin lenses are not possible on the new RF lenses - might future RF lenses want to offer rear drop in lenses?


----------



## sid.safari (Sep 5, 2018)

exige24 said:


> I heard somewhere with servo and DPAF enabled it's 2.2 FPS. Hope that garbage isn't true. LOL I can live with 5.


oh wow...tell me that's not true. That's practically useless for anything moving faster then a snail.


----------



## exige24 (Sep 5, 2018)

sid.safari said:


> oh wow...tell me that's not true. That's practically useless for anything moving faster then a snail.


 It's not. It drops that low when shooting in a special kind of RAW format. I misunderstood.


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

Go Wild said:


> Waait....i can see in a video that there is an electronic stabilization in the sensor witch can be combined with IS in the lens, for video!! So there is in fact image stabilization in the sensor!!



Digital stabilization makes sense for video, it is about frame to frame variation.
It cannot work for still photography. (unless the exposure time gets subdivided)


----------



## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

peters said:


> This was pretty much the ONLY feature that was REALY important to my. WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?


Indeed. Why is this "the ONLY feature that was REALY important"?



peters said:


> Just give me 4k fullframe. Why is this so god damn difficult???


Because of the calculations involved to convert a 30x2 (DP) megapixel image to 4k. They require power, and this power is dissipated within the camera, heating it.


----------



## sid.safari (Sep 5, 2018)

exige24 said:


> It's not. It drops that low when shooting in a special kind of RAW format. I misunderstood.


yeah, as I read the specs it seems it's 8 fps for one-shot AF and 5 fps in servo AF / AE...

still not as fast as I'd hoped...and frankly as a wildlife shooter probably not better than the 5d mark iv which itself wasn't optimal.


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

bitm2007 said:


> Are there likely to be any disadvantages when using EF lenses on EOS R via the mount adapter, reduced maximum aperture, crop factor, auto focus preformance etc ?



There is no good reason why EF lens performance should degrade on a RF body, but EF lenses will not inherit new features that depend on the RF mount. (faster AF protocol (?), closing aperture blades when camera off, ... (?) .


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> So the 1st batches of the camera are now out but doesn't have the latest firmware.


It will have the latest firmware at the time of release.


----------



## exige24 (Sep 5, 2018)

bbb34 said:


> There is no good reason why EF lens performance should degrade on a RF body, but EF lenses will not inherit new features that depend on the RF mount. (faster AF protocol (?), closing aperture blades when camera off, ... (?) .


More than that, they gain parameter functionality with ring control. Beautiful, innovative and most of all useful!


----------



## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 5, 2018)

Nope. It's 10. The Panasonic Lumix G1 was first announced in October 2008.



fullstop said:


> 2012. It is six (6) years "only".


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 5, 2018)

Some of the specs that I had to comb through various pages

X-Sync 1/200
AF at up to f/11
When using the RF 24-105mm F4 L IS USM lens with the EOS R, the camera can focus in as little as 0.05 seconds with Dual Pixel CMOS AF
5,655 manually selectable AF points
Yes, any combination of RAW + JPEG possible, separate formats to separate cards possible including Dual Pixel RAW +JPEG
MF peaking
Eye Detection AF
Flicker Reduction
Shutter it says silent shutter but does not say electronic shutter
3.69 million dots EVF
4K Movie Frame Grab
4k30p 10bit 4:2:2 HDMI output
Focus Guide
Focus magnification of two to ten times — enabled in 15 steps — is easily accessed from a button on the body, and magnification steps can be quickly changed with double taps to the LCD screen.
Focus distance display setting during manual focus
Sounds like almost all buttons and dials are customizable
Most can even be assigned one function for still shooting and another during movie recording — and when you switch between still and video, the saved button customization automatically follow.
4k crop like 5D4
Movie Digital Image Stabilization - supports 5-Axis with an IS enabled lens

Overall this is a pretty decent camera for the price and can be vloggers go to camera because of the DPAF, variangle touch screen plus Canon amazing touch screen implementation

Yes 4k is cropped but I was expecting it in a prosumer camera also to differentiate the cinema line of cameras
EF-S lenses can be used even for 4k recording
5655 AF point manually selectable is a shocker for me. I have not seen any MILC so far that you can select individual AF points.
I wasn't expecting 4k30p 10bit 4:2:2 HDMI output
Focus guide will be an amazing aid for manual focusing I wasn't expecting Canon to add this in a prosumer camera
C-Log is a welcome addition


----------



## nitram (Sep 5, 2018)

Firillu said:


> The reality is that Canon (and Nikon) are about 10 years late with mirrorless.



Well considering that full frame DSLRs are only about 10-13 years old, I’d say your ‘10 years late’ doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Still, they definitely have dragged their feet but I am convinced that the true 5D replacement will come in early 2019. There are several other powerful capabilities that Canon can introduce that will make people forget about their old 5D. As for the 1D, I wonder whether Canon will update the DSLR model one final time before bringing their mirrorless version to the market. Interestesting strategy question that might depend on how well Sony’s a9 is received in the short term.


----------



## Isaacheus (Sep 5, 2018)

Coming from a half Canon, half Sony set up, Canon have done a few good things here, and a few where it looks like they dropped the ball - the next body will be a good indication of what Canon are able to do really.

The AF looks impressive but the fps lets it down from the fine print. 4k is great, especially with 10 bit 4:2:2 hdmi out, but it's heavily cropped, so kinda limits things overall. Rolling shutter sounds like it is an issue too?

The faster card slot is great, but only a single. Eye AF, but only in single shot. All the good bits seem to have a 'but' attached, at least from a features point of view.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 5, 2018)

With an EF lens and the drop in ND filter combined with video specs and 4k30p 10bit 4:2:2 HDMI output can make it a great video camera. The only down side seems to be the crop. To be fair we cannot expect all the bells and whistles on a $2300 Full frame camera.


----------



## nitram (Sep 5, 2018)

Stuart said:


> If the EF adopter offers rear drop in lenses, then rear dropin lenses are not possible on the new RF lenses - might future RF lenses want to offer rear drop in lenses?


Great question... It is almost as if they finally solved lens filter questions but at the same time created the problem once again!


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 5, 2018)

Single card slot is not a surprice for me because Canon so far has reserved that feature for higher end cameras like 7D, 5D and 1D


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 5, 2018)

Sounds like there are 3 different EF Lens adapters sold with 4 different options
Simple adapter for $99
Adapter with control ring for $199
Adapter with Drop in CPL filter for $299
Adapter with Drop in ND filter for $399
The drop in variable neutral density (ND) filter allows density to be controlled from ND3 – ND500 which is equivalent to 1.5 – 9 f-stops.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 5, 2018)

EOS R initial price of $2299 (available late October)
EOS R with RF 24-105mm F4 L IS USM Kit initial price of $3399 (available December)
RF 50mm F1.2 L USM initial price of $2299 (available late October)
RF 28-70mm F2 L USM initial price of $2999 (available December)
RF 24-105mm F4 L IS USM initial price of $1099 (available December)
RF 35mm F1.8 MACRO IS STM initial price of $499.99 (available December)
Speedlite EL-100 initial price of $199.99 (available late October)
Mount Adapter EF-EOS R initial price of $99.99 (available late October)
Control Ring Mount Adapter EF-EOS R initial price of $199.99 (available late October)
Drop-In Filter Mount Adapter EF-EOS R (CP) initial price of $299.99 (available February 2019)
Drop-In Filter Mount Adapter EF-EOS R (ND) initial price of $399.99 (available February 2019) 
Canon EF-M 32mm f/1.4 STM initial price of $479.99 (available late September)
Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS III USM initial price of $12999 (available December)
Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS III USM initial price of $11999 (available December)


----------



## nitram (Sep 5, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> The AF looks impressive but the fps lets it down from the fine print. 4k is great, especially with 10 bit 4:2:2 hdmi out, but it's heavily cropped, so kinda limits things overall. Rolling shutter sounds like it is an issue too?


Well since the top and bottom lines of the 4K crop are quite close together, one would expect significantly less rolling shutter than if the entire sensor were used. While it is annoying to have such a heavy crop, the crop does effectively reduce rolling shutter and may be an artifact of Canon’s sensor design not being able to output data fast enough. This will likely improve in the near future!


----------



## Charbax (Sep 5, 2018)

Nikon Z Reimagines Mirrorless
Canon R Reimagines Optical Excellence
Sony A didn't forget to include IBIS and a dual SD card slot.
How about 4K60? 10bit HLG? H265 and ProRes RAW? Un-cropped 4K?
Can you please Reimagine to include all that next time?


----------



## Isaacheus (Sep 5, 2018)

nitram said:


> Well since the top and bottom lines of the 4K crop are quite close together, one would expect significantly less rolling shutter than if the entire sensor were used. While it is annoying to have such a heavy crop, the crop does effectively reduce rolling shutter and may be an artifact of Canon’s sensor design not being able to output data fast enough. This will likely improve in the near future!



Yeah - I'd be keen to see improvements in this in the future (and hoping the initial reports are incorrect). I wonder if this is one of the reasons for the crop in the first place, if it is due to a slow readout. 

All in all, this is closer to what I thought the 6dmk2 was going to be. So likely a decent camera, but it does seem to be done at a certain price point. I had hoped they would pull out all the stops for the first release


----------



## nitram (Sep 5, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Some of the specs that I had to comb through various pages
> 
> AF at up to f/11
> When using the RF 24-105mm F4 L IS USM lens with the EOS R, the camera can focus in as little as 0.05 seconds with Dual Pixel CMOS AF
> MF peaking



The expanded AF aperture range was a definite feature as LiveView already worked for f/11. Nice to see it be announced all the same!

As for the lenses, I am confused whether all but the 24-105 are non full-time manual focus... One of the CanonUSA videos clealry explains how the focus ring direction can be inverted which would indicated that focus occurs by wire as is the case on the new 400 and 600s. 

Finally, MF peaking and focus direction assist looks incredible. Coupled with the auto zoom to the area selected for focus, vintage lenses will be very interesting to adapt. 

Thank you for the resume!


----------



## MayaTlab (Sep 5, 2018)

nitram said:


> This will likely improve in the near future!



A tad over-optimistic I feel. It will happen at some point undeniably (if only because 8K video demands will result in a convergence between photo and video tech on sensors). But if the 5DIV's readout speed is the best Canon do in late 2018 at a $2300 price tag, it ain't going to be significantly improved any time soon.


----------



## Tangent (Sep 5, 2018)

I'll just mention a couple things that stood out like focus peaking and display of distance information. My big unknown now is: DR at ISO 100 for stills.

...but with what I see here I'm starting to think that the mirrored dslr is going to be phased out quicker than I thought...


----------



## BRunner (Sep 5, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> ....
> Shutter it says silent shutter but does not say electronic shutter
> ....


According this it looks like fully electronic shutter to me http://learn.usa.canon.com/resource...r-whatsnew-silentshutter.shtml?categoryId=121



> What the EOS R does differently when you activate Silent Shutter is that the mechanical shutter blades remain fully open, and do not move. Instead, the shutter itself electronically stops actual image recording, scanning its surface again after the initial scanning action has begun capture of light and image detail. Because this is happening within the CMOS image sensor, it can be totally silent.
> But to achieve this, the EOS R has some distinct limitations, and EOS users who work with the camera need to be aware of them. If you activate the Silent Shutter, there are some things no longer possible (turning Silent Shutter to “disable” makes all the following available again):
> 
> No continuous shooting (single-frame shooting only)
> ...


----------



## Isaacheus (Sep 5, 2018)

Tangent said:


> I'll just mention a couple things that stood out like focus peaking and display of distance information. My big unknown now is: DR at ISO 100 for stills.
> 
> ...but with what I see here I'm starting to think that the mirrored dslr is going to be phased out quicker than I thought...



I can't see canon repeating the 6dmk2, especially where the sensor looks like it is similar to the 5dmk4, that should be a good base to start from.
All in all, this looks like it could be a great little timelapse camera, if the silent shutter is electronic rather than mechanical - any confirmation on this? Throw an adapted prime ef on there with an nd in the adapter and you're good to go


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 5, 2018)

I wonder if the touch-and-drag AF point will work while the camera is up to your eye? I can do this on the Panasonics and it makes moving the AF point across the screen a lot quicker.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 5, 2018)

BRunner said:


> According this it looks like fully electronic shutter to me http://learn.usa.canon.com/resource...r-whatsnew-silentshutter.shtml?categoryId=121



Thanks. It is nice to have electronic shutter but no continuous shooting is a bummer and the warning sounds like it is usable for still subjects only.


----------



## Timedog (Sep 5, 2018)

Wait, this has a focus guide for manual focusing?


MayaTlab said:


> A tad over-optimistic I feel. It will happen at some point undeniably (if only because 8K video demands will result in a convergence between photo and video tech on sensors). But if the 5DIV's readout speed is the best Canon do in late 2018 at a $2300 price tag, it ain't going to be significantly improved any time soon.


It's the best they can do several years ago when the 5DIV came out, as this seems to obviously be using basically the same sensor. We'll see what they've been cooking when they release a more pro body in the hopefully near future.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 5, 2018)

nitram said:


> The expanded AF aperture range was a definite feature as LiveView already worked for f/11. Nice to see it be announced all the same!
> 
> As for the lenses, I am confused whether all but the 24-105 are non full-time manual focus... One of the CanonUSA videos clealry explains how the focus ring direction can be inverted which would indicated that focus occurs by wire as is the case on the new 400 and 600s.
> 
> ...



Yes sadly all the new lenses are FBW which actually make me suspect Canon might allow a EF to RF mount conversion on these new EF 400 and 600 Version 3


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 5, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Some of the specs that I had to comb through various pages
> Yes, any combination of RAW + JPEG possible, separate formats to separate cards possible including Dual Pixel RAW +JPEG



Actually that seems to be a typo? since there is only one card slot


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2018)

Spectacular camera, stellar lenses. I think Canon found an excellent compromise between continuity and innovation, delivering a knock out punch with the new series of RF lenses. I seriously doubt I'll ever buy another DSLR, and questioning the original idea to replace my 70-200mm mark II with the new mark III in the assumption a new RF 70-200mm will be released soon.

Not concerned about the single card slot (glad to see a SD II), missing native GPS, unsure about the LCD screen. Initial reactions


----------



## Maximilian (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Sure the number of boxes doesn't matter.
> I believe 2299 is an RRP, we'll find it down to 2100 or so with promotions and discounnts and on grey market.


Sorry, but I am not talking about price level, discounts and grey market prices.
I am talking about the price for the kit compared to the individual units, not just body only.

See here:

$ 2299 MRSP for EOS R (body only), okay
$ 1099 MRSP for RF 24-105 (lens only), okay
$ 3399 MRSP for the kit (body+lens), NOT okay because
$ 2299 + $ 1099 = $ 3398 < $ 3399,
So the kit costs $1 more than the individual units ==> ridiculous
A kit should give me (buyer) at least a 5 to 10% discount over the individual units.
got it?


----------



## Ampiku (Sep 5, 2018)

If it works well with Tamron G2 24-70 VC and 70-200 VC with the EF-R adapter I think it's a buy for me.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 5, 2018)

Pricing Germany ... 


EOS R Body – €2.499* – Verfügbar ab 9. Oktober 2018
EOS R Body + RF 24-105 – €3.499* – Verfügbar ab 9. Oktober 2018
RF 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM – €1.199* – Verfügbar ab 9. Oktober 2018
RF 28-70mm f/2 L USM – €3.249* – Verfügbar ab Dezember 2018
RF 50mm f/1.2 L USM – €2.499* – Verfügbar ab Ende Oktober 2018
RF 35mm f/1.8 Macro IS STM – €549* – Verfügbar ab Dezember 2018
Mount Adapter EF-EF-EOS R – €109* – Verfügbar ab 9. Oktober 2018
Control Ring Mount Adapter EF-EF-EOS R – €219* – Verfügbar ab 9. Oktober 2018 Drop-In Filter Mount Adapter EF-EF
EOS R (V-ND) – €449* – Verfügbar ab Februar 2019 Drop-In Filter Mount Adapter EF-EF-EOS R (C-PL) – €329* – Verfügbar ab Februar 2019


----------



## Phil995511 (Sep 5, 2018)

It seems to be sadly missing the image stabilization on the case. Personally, I prefer mirrored cameras.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 5, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Yes, any combination of RAW + JPEG possible, separate formats to separate cards possible including Dual Pixel RAW +JPEG
> Actually that seems to be a typo? since there is only one card slot



I definitely saw that on one of the spec sheets and copied it. I cannot seem to find that anywhere now. May be Canon corrected it?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

Maximilian said:


> Sorry, but I am not talking about price level, discounts and grey market prices.
> I am talking about the price for the kit compared to the individual units, not just body only.
> 
> See here:
> ...



Yeah, the point is, this stuff will be available in October and the pricing is preliminary, and the kit at official and grey retailers will likely be less than separated body and lens. I'd be surprised if the numbers stay the same in October as they are now.

PS. The German prices in euro above do make sense - the kit is 200eur less expensive.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

Go Wild said:


> Waait....i can see in a video that there is an electronic stabilization in the sensor witch can be combined with IS in the lens, for video!! So there is in fact image stabilization in the sensor!!


Uses sensor detected blur (in camera body) combined with lens IS info to stabilize the image. Still requires lens IS for the process.


----------



## Maximilian (Sep 5, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Pricing Germany ...
> ...


Don't forget Germany including 19% VAT, US without VAT.
Similar MRSPs than in the classic world (EOS 6D/5D and EF lenses).
Those prices are not surprising to me. 

But as I said before: 
Cheaper is always better! (For us consumers)


----------



## MayaTlab (Sep 5, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Thanks. It is nice to have electronic shutter but no continuous shooting is a bummer and the warning sounds like it is usable for still subjects only.



I've read somewhere that electronic shutter in continuous shooting will come with a firmware update. 

But it probably won't be much useful for anything that would require continuous shooting : the scan time of the sensor will be slow and moving subjects may be deformed.


----------



## MrAndre (Sep 5, 2018)

I really like this camera. It is everything I wanted, but the price is higher than expected. This really hurts. At 2200 EUR this would have been an instabuy. But now I might have to wait for the first price drop :S


----------



## fullstop (Sep 5, 2018)

bitm2007 said:


> Are there likely to be any disadvantages when using EF lenses on EOS R via the mount adapter, reduced maximum aperture, crop factor, auto focus preformance etc ?



no disadvantages for EF lenses compared to their LiveView performance on a current DP-AF DSLR (eg. 5D IV)

But EF lens performance likely not as good as native RF lenses in any aspect that needs faster communication / 12-pins. e.g. the "enhanced IS" - needs gyrosensor in lens + faster communication channel. EF lenses don't have it. They are "legacy" as of today in relation to RF mount cameras.


----------



## padam (Sep 5, 2018)

I already know what Philip Bloom may say:


----------



## onelifesoliveit (Sep 5, 2018)

freejay said:


> This is my new tool!!! No IBIS (sad) but Eye-AF and C-Log! That's a no-brainer for me.



Eye-AF only on AF-S, no AF-C on high servo... and only 60fps on 1080p? 370 shot battery life... oh, let's not forget the pricing.. $2.299... no way man. This is too much for such a toy. I would give $1.500 at most for this entry level camera.


----------



## Liverpool FC (Sep 5, 2018)

Can't wait to see it's high iso and daynmatic range performance.


----------



## padam (Sep 5, 2018)

Liverpool FC said:


> Can't wait to see it's high iso and daynmatic range performance.



It's the basically the same as the 5D IV with a little bit of improvement in ISO performance thanks for the new Digic 8 processor.


----------



## Totoro (Sep 5, 2018)

One new feature I see in specs is 4K timelapse movie mode. Nice upgrade but I believe Nikon Z can do 8K. I wonder if there is a crop for this too.


----------



## razorzec (Sep 5, 2018)

Having seen the Official photos the camera is a stunning, solid looking, well designed and true to the EOS DSLR look which I love so much.

24-105 with 5 stop IS sounds really good of a compromise for the lack of IBIS which the fanboys over the Sony forums were (expectedly) harping in every comment section. since this is the kit lens, it also matches the need amongst vloggers who are expected to get this in kit.

While 5655 Selectable AF points is already overkill compared to the competition, I thought Canon could go even further the top with the AF points because the nature of Dual Pixel AF. Since with 100x80% coverage that's several millions worth of AF points available.

Cinema EOS style Focus guide is genius, way better approach than just relying on Focus peaking alone

Of the three adapters announced alongside the new camera, I find the one with Control ring the most useful. RF lenses have them built in. but mounting an EF lens with the control ring adapter on the EOS R makes the legacy lens behave like an RF lens. I guess that's what Canon was telling us about when they said the adapter gives existing EF lenses even more capabilities than it would otherwise with their Native mount.

Video specs handily surpasses the 5D IV, couple with that Cinema EOS style AF guide, it's like a Mini C100, And for $2299, it's a relative bargain. Youtube vlogggers definitely has found their best vlogging camera yet. 

As expected, Everyone was going crazy with the 4K crop and the lack of IBIS but completely misses the good points on the camera that was revolutionary in its on. Funny how SonyAlphaRumors made sure to enumerate all its "cons" and make sure it could list alot more of it than its pros.


----------



## wazmunstr (Sep 5, 2018)

This is a step in the right direction, but I still can't shake the feeling that we are still years behind the competition. What I am looking for is like some of the rest here, including 1080/120p, and IBIS. The A6500 includes both and is literally half the price. Is it twice the camera because it is full frame? My only solution now since I've been waiting for an announcement is the 6D MKII. I love Canon, and I love their lenses but I am hopeful this changes in the near future. I'm sure it will but at what cost?


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> Yes sadly all the new lenses are FBW which actually make me suspect Canon might allow a EF to RF mount conversion on these new EF 400 and 600 Version 3



FBW sounds scary, but then manual focus on AF lenses never felt great. The turning angle is just too small.

I hope they made their homework. If the ring feels good and the focus follows without lag, it might actually be an improvement over manual focus on EF lenses. I just learned from this video that the focus sensitivity is adjustable.


----------



## onelifesoliveit (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So there *is *eye-detect AF. And no crop in 4K.
> Good stuff, pity there's no IBIS, dual card and - slightly disappointing - no GPS. Still sounds like a better option against Z6, considering the lenses and AF.
> 
> But what's the price?



The price is $2.299 and eye-AF only works in AF-S mode. The lenses are very expensive and the camera itself is also expensive taking into account that it doesn't have IBIS, a very low battery life, single card slot, 1.6 crop in 4K.


----------



## bitm2007 (Sep 5, 2018)

MrAndre said:


> I really like this camera. It is everything I wanted, but the price is higher than expected. This really hurts. At 2200 EUR this would have been an instabuy. But now I might have to wait for the first price drop :S



Price looks very tempting in the UK, £2349.00 (including lens adapter), compared to £3250 less £250 cashback for the 5D IV.
https://www.parkcameras.com/p/10121...on-eos-r-full-frame-mirrorless-digital-camera


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 5, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> It will have the latest firmware at the time of release.



That's not what is implied in the line in the press release. Otherwise, that silent shooting feature in continuous shooting mode would have been mentioned in the specifications from the outset.


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

razorzec said:


> ... mounting an EF lens with the control ring adapter on the EOS R makes the legacy lens behave like an RF lens. ....



The control ring doesn't change the EF lens at all. Manual aperture control for instance is done on the EF body now, then on the control ring in the R setup. But I appreciate the concept.


----------



## vangelismm (Sep 5, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> I wonder if the touch-and-drag AF point will work while the camera is up to your eye? I can do this on the Panasonics and it makes moving the AF point across the screen a lot quicker.


 
They did it in one of the videos.


----------



## nitram (Sep 5, 2018)

fullstop said:


> no disadvantages for EF lenses compared to their LiveView performance on a current DP-AF DSLR (eg. 5D IV)
> 
> But EF lens performance likely not as good as native RF lenses in any aspect that needs faster communication / 12-pins. e.g. the "enhanced IS" - needs gyrosensor in lens + faster communication channel. EF lenses don't have it. They are "legacy" as of today in relation to RF mount cameras.




I agree but if the new 400 & 600 lenses are EF only, then this would seem to indicate they are not intended for ‘heavy duty work’ with the R body. DSLRs might be better suited at this point...


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 5, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> I wonder if the touch-and-drag AF point will work while the camera is up to your eye? I can do this on the Panasonics and it makes moving the AF point across the screen a lot quicker.



Based on one of the videos, you can use the touchscreen AF pt. selection even with the eye-level VF.


----------



## infared (Sep 5, 2018)

It is so hard to believe that this camera has no IBIS. Just impossible at this point in 2018 to finally enter into the mirrorless proceedings without it.


----------



## nitram (Sep 5, 2018)

bbb34 said:


> FBW sounds scary, but then manual focus on AF lenses never felt great. The turning angle is just to small.
> 
> I hope they made their homework. If the ring feels good and the focus follows without lag, it might actually be an improvement over manual focus on EF lenses. I just learned from the video at https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?bookmarks/confirm&content_type=post&content_id=740984 that the focus sensitivity is adjustable.



Adjustable focus speed is only for the 400 and 600 (I remember that one of the videos showed external switches on the big whites) or indeed for all RF lenses?


----------



## Etienne (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So there *is *eye-detect AF. And no crop in 4K.
> Good stuff, pity there's no IBIS, dual card and - slightly disappointing - no GPS. Still sounds like a better option against Z6, considering the lenses and AF.
> 
> But what's the price?



Where did you read no crop in 4K?


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

According to the video, manual focus sensitivity is in the global camera settings.


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 5, 2018)

nitram said:


> Adjustable focus speed is only for the 400 and 600 (I remember that one of the videos showed external switches on the big whites) or indeed for all RF lenses?



It's a setting on the body, so it should be for all RF lenses.


----------



## Jordanf1 (Sep 5, 2018)

VOTOXY said:


> It's a pass for me, I'll wait for the higher end model with IBIS, 2 card slots, and 1080p120.
> These were the 3 features I needed along side eyeAF...
> Do you guys know when can we expect an announcement of the higher end model ?



Well said, more hype etc etc , I wont be selling all my EF Sport big whites or my 1DX2's either ..........


----------



## syyeung1 (Sep 5, 2018)

Quick reference guide for the trolls:

No IBIS - must have feature in 2018
No dual card slot - another must have
Cropped 4K - suddenly became the most important factor
f2 zoom - too expensive, too heavy, no IS, blah blah blah
DPAF - PDAF is fast enough
Canon colors - can always achieve that in post-processing
Canon menu - can get used to it
5655 AF points - makes AF too complicated, not user-friendly
3.6M dot view finder - single biggest reason why battery life is so poor

Conclusion - another crippled offering from Canon, will be out of business soon. Better sell off all gears before it's too late!!!


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

how about dish washer and beer tap?


----------



## bergstrom (Sep 5, 2018)

Thoughts by first users screened by canon marketing


----------



## razorzec (Sep 5, 2018)

syyeung1 said:


> Quick reference guide for the trolls:
> 
> No IBIS - must have feature in 2018
> No dual card slot - another must have
> ...



+ It's using the inferior Canon sensor, it can't push shadows at +5EV 
+ No Joystick to select all those AF points.
+ Cannot shoot 20FPS, what's the use of all thsoe over 5000 points?
+ only 30fps at Internal 8bit recording. Oh my gosh, A7S3 will shoot at 4K60 with 10bit 4:2:2!
+ Obligatory Canon is crippling this camera to prevent cannibalizing their Cinema EOS line


----------



## Addnan (Sep 5, 2018)

Do we expect the EF adapter to work with third party lenses? Not sure how these things usually work.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 5, 2018)

Etienne said:


> Where did you read no crop in 4K?



It's been noted in the reviews, and is not at all surprising given the slow readout of the sensor. 120 fps topping out at 720p is a good indicator of sensor readout. It's basically the same sensor as the 5D mark IV. The reason Nikon and Panasonic have had access to faster readout sensors is because they focus their resources on fine tuning Sony sensors instead of trying to build the entire sensor from the ground up. Though, none of them are still as advance as the 5 year old Samsung DSLR.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> The price is $2.299 and eye-AF only works in AF-S mode. The lenses are very expensive and the camera itself is also expensive taking into account that it doesn't have IBIS, a very low battery life, single card slot, 1.6 crop in 4K.



Yep I've already figured the price 

Among existing Canon FF owners, I think 5DMkIV owners won't upgrade to R (some may consider it as a secondary camera). There's no or little point to change 5D4 for R. Flip screen is the only major advantage. I think R fills the gap between 6DMkII and 5DMkIV, but it's closer to 6DMkII. So 6D or 6DMkII owners may consider upgrading to R.

For those who don't have an FF, R is a great option to start. R is more expensive than 6DMkII but so much better in all areas. If its price drops to around $2000, it'll probably kill 6DII in a while.

But I have no idea how/if it's going to compete against Nikon Z6. Apart from IBIS, Z6 is weaker, and the initial Z lenses are so-so, but it's all cheaper.

Another potential rival, A7rIII has better specs but much more expensive, it's a different category.

So my feeling is, the current price is a bit too much, but only a little bit. But Canon has much more powerful marketing department than my marketing intuition, so I bet this camera will sell well.


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

Addnan said:


> Do we expect the EF adapter to work with third party lenses? Not sure how these things usually work.



That will be the same as a 3rd party lens on any new body: most likely it will work. Some might have issues.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 5, 2018)

razorzec said:


> + It's using the inferior Canon sensor, it can't push shadows at +5EV



If that is a deal-breaker, the problem is not the camera.


----------



## rsdofny (Sep 5, 2018)

Great job, Canon. When will the next APS-C ML camera come?


----------



## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

And where is my G7X III?


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

Here are some of the first hands-on videos:

Syrp
Click Mag Ep25


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 5, 2018)

The EF lenses are NOT going anywhere, at least for a very long time. Some of y'all need to relax.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yep I've already figured the price
> 
> Among existing Canon FF owners, I think 5DMkIV owners won't upgrade to R (some may consider it as a secondary camera). There's no or little point to change 5D4 for R. Flip screen is the only major advantage. I think R fills the gap between 6DMkII and 5DMkIV, but it's closer to 6DMkII. So 6D or 6DMkII owners may consider upgrading to R.
> 
> ...



The Z6 will be the main competition. The A7 III is a great camera(and no longer has the Sony flaws of overheating or star eating, and color is acceptable) and the A7R III is almost great, plus the EF comparability is decent. But the ergonomics of the Sony cameras are still not great. If a third party adapter is made for EF to the Z cameras works as well as the one for the E mount, I'll jump to the Nikon.

Edit: I should not that Sony and Canon's memory cards won't cost an arm and a leg.


----------



## rsdofny (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yep I've already figured the price
> 
> Among existing Canon FF owners, I think 5DMkIV owners won't upgrade to R (some may consider it as a secondary camera). There's no or little point to change 5D4 for R. Flip screen is the only major advantage. I think R fills the gap between 6DMkII and 5DMkIV, but it's closer to 6DMkII. So 6D or 6DMkII owners may consider upgrading to R.
> 
> ...



Since there are a lot of IS lens around, I'll trade IBIS with better AF if I am a photographer. Video is a different ball game that I don't quite understand yet.


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 5, 2018)

Secondly.... 10 bit 422 with C-Log .... that can only be recorded externally... YES! Finally! LOL. That means we finally get the long awaited 4k HDMI output! I'm hoping maybe we finally get some sort of firmware update for the 1DX2 to unlock that feature as well (it has an artificial ceiling of 1080p)


----------



## Maximilian (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Among existing Canon FF owners, I think
> ...
> For those who don't have an FF, R is a great option to start. R is more expensive than 6DMkII but so much better in all areas. If its price drops to around $2000, it'll probably kill 6DII in a while.
> ...


Quite good summary and conclusion, IMO.
The quoted part above is the key to me:
Canon is aiming at the prosumers looking for FF and wanting MILC.
They offer a body at a reasonable price with reasonable specs, and deliver a good kit lens and a small 35 mm WA standard (with macro icing on top) for the start.
The RF 50/1.2 and the RF 28-70/2.0 are expensive but aiming at studio and wedding portrait photographers to get a second market. Of course for wedding you'd go for dual card slot.

Journalists, sports and action photographers are not addressed yet.
To give them advantages over the existing DSLRs and EF lenses, they'd need ( _edit: ) native RF_ f/2.8 zooms with faster AF and maybe smaller and lighter and of course a body with dual card slot and much higher fps.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 5, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> Secondly.... 10 bit 422 with C-Log .... that can only be recorded externally... YES! Finally! LOL. That means we finally get the long awaited 4k HDMI output! I'm hoping maybe we finally get some sort of firmware update for the 1DX2 to unlock that feature as well (it has an artificial ceiling of 1080p)



Is the 1DX 2 HDMI ceiling artificial? I was under the impression it was using an older HDMI protocol.


----------



## neo302 (Sep 5, 2018)

They needed to release a super wide RF lens with that 4K 1.6 crop.
You can't vlog 4K with a 24mm lens, or a 3lb lens (28-70). The 24-105 also has a min. focusing distance of 17.71 inches...
Yes, you can adapt to an ef-s lens (no 60P) 10-18 which is much lower quality or use an other existing wider lens that will introduce noise when focusing. Unfortunately, this likely won't work for me.


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 5, 2018)

The R is not an "upgrade" to the 6 or 5 body. It's a different camera altogether. I don't think there will be much issue there. Apart from sensor resolution, the R specs are on par or better than the A7R3 and comes in for $1000 less (plus you get Canon color science which is still better than Sony's). Also there is a yet to be seen second Canon Mirrorless FF body rumored to be revealed early/mid next year that would be an even higher end model than this. I think the price is pretty much dead on. It's much more akin to the 5D4 than the 6D2 and it's only about $400 more than the 6 but $1000 less than the 5. To me it's a steal. But you have to be willing to either use adapters (for those of us who already have extensive EF libraries) or you pick up new glass (which is what I may do)

I had been waiting to se what this would look like because I wanted something compact but still FF for travel and personal use. This R checks off all the boxes and more than I suspected (with C-log 4k 10bit 422 HDMI output). Now I just need to see how much the 28-70 f2 is lol



I suspect the market share of the R will be the largest piece of that pie chart in very short order.



Quarkcharmed said:


> Yep I've already figured the price
> 
> Among existing Canon FF owners, I think 5DMkIV owners won't upgrade to R (some may consider it as a secondary camera). There's no or little point to change 5D4 for R. Flip screen is the only major advantage. I think R fills the gap between 6DMkII and 5DMkIV, but it's closer to 6DMkII. So 6D or 6DMkII owners may consider upgrading to R.
> 
> ...


----------



## ken (Sep 5, 2018)

Exciting times! I undershot my U.S. price guess by 99 bucks. But this is great news in my book... This implies to me that there will be a pro model that is almost sure to have dual cards. This price also shows a huge commitment to FF mirrorless and the RF mount.

The thing that will nag me like a bug under my skin until the pro model is out is... will they yank that sweet flippy screen away from me? Will they have the nerve to ask 3,500 for a camera and have a fixed lcd screen? Man. That rascally Canon.

Depending on reviews (and then a rental) between now and end of year, I may be getting this first model anyway. My wife would love it unless there's some usability issue that isn't obvious yet. 

And I think this price, combined with the mediocre EF refreshes, tells me where Canon sees the future leading, and that future has an RF mount on it.


----------



## Maximilian (Sep 5, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> ...
> Now I just need to see *how much *the 28-70 f2 is lol
> ...


What do you mean? IQ?
Because price and specs are out.


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 5, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> Is the 1DX 2 HDMI ceiling artificial? I was under the impression it was using an older HDMI protocol.



4k HDMI protocols were widely available at the time (I am not aware if they deliberately chose an older one) since several other cameras (sony, Panasonic, fuji) all had them for far less. Plus the much older (tech age) Canon 1DC with 2 generations older Digic chips could do it. The 1DX2 has such robust video features with CFast2 recording, but Canon choked the output and left out Log presumably so as not to "compete" with the Cinema line. 

This "new" thinking with the EOS R is very welcomed. Canon until now never seemed to understand that DSLR bodies aren't going to replace dedicated video cameras for pros. In fact, many use both in tandem. 

I just hope they can go back (because I suspect it's a firmware design) and unlock the output. If they deliberately used hardware that couldn't support it... shame.


----------



## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

A couple things I found interesting:

This appears to be using the 5D IV sensor, but it was identified in the videos as being a middle of the road camera: a good first full-frame camera for buyers (i.e. like a 6D). What does that mean for the next model up? Does the 5DS/SR (or an updated version) slot into the 5D's previous position? 
One of the videos noted that the camera used the LP-E6 so batteries from older cameras would be compatible with this, first full frame mirrorless camera. This seemed to be a strange way to phrase it to me, almost insinuating that other cameras may use other batteries. That may not be a bad thing considering the battery life being projected off of an LP-E6.
It seems to me that this is seen by Canon as a good secondary camera, and it certainly could be. The real question is where does RF go from here - what will the next body be?


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 5, 2018)

Maximilian said:


> What do you mean? IQ?
> Because price and specs are out.



I saw the R and the kit with 24-105....

Didn't see the glass individually...


----------



## ptogel (Sep 5, 2018)

Is it just me or does this feel like a mirrorless 6d. One card slot?


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 5, 2018)

ken said:


> Exciting times! I undershot my U.S. price guess by 99 bucks. But this is great news in my book... This implies to me that there will be a pro model that is almost sure to have dual cards. This price also shows a huge commitment to FF mirrorless and the RF mount.
> 
> The thing that will nag me like a bug under my skin until the pro model is out is... will they yank that sweet flippy screen away from me? Will they have the nerve to ask 3,500 for a camera and have a fixed lcd screen? Man. That rascally Canon.
> 
> ...



I can't imagine what the "pro" model would look like. Already have 30MP, 8fps, 5000AF points via DPAF, Magnesium body... What else is there? 60MP? few more FPS? 60fps slo-mo in 4K? There IS a debate to be made that the next model would be the more dedicated video machine, where we see a LOWER res sensor than this. Time will tell!


----------



## peters (Sep 5, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Indeed. Why is this "the ONLY feature that was REALY important"?
> 
> 
> Because of the calculations involved to convert a 30x2 (DP) megapixel image to 4k. They require power, and this power is dissipated within the camera, heating it.




Jeah well, its not realy the ONLY feature that could have been a dealbreaker. At least we can use EF-S lenses, so we can achieve wide-angle-4k-images. (Which was totaly impossible on the 5d iv)
I hope the rolling shutter is not so insane (and unusable) as on the 5d IV. Than it could be a decent video camera. 

I certainly like the way that canon is going and I do understand the problems that arise from a fullframe 4k readout (this is why I dont ask for 60fps at all) but at least a less insane crop factor would have been nice(like the 1,3 on the 1dx).


----------



## fullstop (Sep 5, 2018)

Where does RF go? LOL 
It is the sole and excellent standard for all future Canon FF cameras, except the few more EF DSLRs that may still appear. 

EOS R = mirrorfree 6D III [with 5D IV sensor but pedestrian fps]
next EOS R body = mirrorfree 5D V [with new, higher rez sensor and much higher fps]


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

rsdofny said:


> Since there are a lot of IS lens around, I'll trade IBIS with better AF if I am a photographer. Video is a different ball game that I don't quite understand yet.



Yeah AF seems to be a very strong point here. It looks like it'll outperform all other vlogging cameras. But I mostly shoot stills. I wouldn't mind super fast new AF but it's already great on my 5D4.

But I don't understand how people discuss and review it as if it were a pure video camera. Like in this review quoted above: 



 - that review is practically useless to me to be honest. Ok the guys who reviewed it might be concerned specifically about video, but so are commentators below. And so are many people in this thread.


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 5, 2018)

BTW - anyone seen anything on crop factor in 4k? Is it going to be crazy like the 5D4 with a similar sensor? Or will this be full readout with binning?


----------



## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> BTW - anyone seen anything on crop factor in 4k? Is it going to be crazy like the 5D4 with a similar sensor? Or will this be full readout with binning?


It's the 5D IV crop for 4K


----------



## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> BTW - anyone seen anything on crop factor in 4k? Is it going to be crazy like the 5D4 with a similar sensor? Or will this be full readout with binning?


It is going to be crazily usable with EF-S lenses.

This camera is full of trade-offs, but that's why it will sell well.


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 5, 2018)

amorse said:


> It's the 5D IV crop for 4K



Where did you find that?


----------



## onelifesoliveit (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yep I've already figured the price
> 
> Among existing Canon FF owners, I think 5DMkIV owners won't upgrade to R (some may consider it as a secondary camera). There's no or little point to change 5D4 for R. Flip screen is the only major advantage. I think R fills the gap between 6DMkII and 5DMkIV, but it's closer to 6DMkII. So 6D or 6DMkII owners may consider upgrading to R.
> 
> ...



The competitor of Z6 and EOS R is not A7r3, it is A7iii which is much better in almost every aspect than z6/EOS R (and the $1.999 price tag).


----------



## Etienne (Sep 5, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> It's been noted in the reviews, and is not at all surprising given the slow readout of the sensor. 120 fps topping out at 720p is a good indicator of sensor readout. It's basically the same sensor as the 5D mark IV. The reason Nikon and Panasonic have had access to faster readout sensors is because they focus their resources on fine tuning Sony sensors instead of trying to build the entire sensor from the ground up. Though, none of them are still as advance as the 5 year old Samsung DSLR.


Hopefully they read the full sensor for both 4K and 1080p, no line-skipping. That's Sony's secret sauce for high quality video without moire and aliasing.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> Where did you find that?


It was mentioned in one of the videos with Canon staff.


----------



## fox40phil (Sep 5, 2018)

28-70 2.0 for 3k $ and then around 3500€ maybe?! whoa! 

And how about R lenses on EF bodys?!


----------



## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> Where did you find that?






 - it doesn't call it the same as the 5D IV, but it looks pretty darn close. I could have sworn I read it somewhere, but I can't remember where. I'll touch back if I find it, but for now the Canon marketing video gives you a pretty good idea.


----------



## pitoku (Sep 5, 2018)

just I have expected... no IBIS. The Japanese don't compete against each other, they co-exist.


----------



## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

amorse said:


> - it doesn't call it the same as the 5D IV, but it looks pretty darn close. I could have sworn I read it somewhere, but I can't remember where. I'll touch back if I find it, but for now the Canon marketing video gives you a pretty good idea.


On the bright side, the camera will take an EF-S lens and if you use that to film 4K you will have a near full APS-C equivalent readout. It's certainly not the best option, but it is better than the 5D IV's implementation of 4K.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 5, 2018)

It's probably been mentioned but there are too many posts to check. In answer to an earlier question, the 5 fps is with continuous AF.


----------



## ken (Sep 5, 2018)

onelifesoliveit said:


> The competitor of Z6 and EOS R is not A7r3, it is A7iii which is much better in almost every aspect than z6/EOS R (and the $1.999 price tag).


"Better" is highly subjective. For me, it comes down to:

Stay with Canon:
pros
- get full use of my EF lenses
- get full use of my flash accessories
- menu system that I'm comfortable with
- tilty-flippy screen
cons
- lower FPS than I wanted
- eye AF limited by modes
- no dual card shooting 

Move to Sony:
pros
- better FPS
- better eye AF
- dual cards
cons
- gimps my EF lenses (or costly trade to Sony lenses)
- ~30% premium on future Sony lenses
- menu system that is a pain in the rear (to me)
- limited screen articulation (close to useless to me)

Look at the features you actually use and make your choice. For me, Canon's made a bold commitment toward the future offering that sensor at the stated price. They have convinced me they're very serious about FF mirrorless. Now they just need to make the big-boy version of FF mirrorless. I don't even care if loses a bit of resolution. And please, Canon gods... leave that tilty-flippy touchy screen magic right where it is on the next one.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 5, 2018)

But, for tracking priority' mode in AF-C, the frame rate drops to just 3 fps.


----------



## dock77 (Sep 5, 2018)

Seems like there is some type of IBIS. At least for video. Is this what others understand to be true?


----------



## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

AlanF said:


> But, for tracking priority' mode in AF-C, the frame rate drops to just 3 fps.


I saw that as well. I'm more curious about how well the AF can handle fast-moving subjects regardless of the burst speed. I think one of the videos noted that it was very capable for a stationary subject which was moving around, but I am not sure about something more demanding such as birds in flight.


----------



## criscokkat (Sep 5, 2018)

I was seriously hoping the camera/lens/adapter package would be around 3k. Looks like it's at least 3500 instead.

The a7III is looking pretty good at this point. More realistically I'll be looking at upgrading my prosumer camera setup in the spring. The a7IV should be out by then with even more refinements. I guess I'll have some serious thinking to do. At least it looks like I could use a few of my ef-s lenses on this camera, with much less resolution. The FPS leaves much to be desired if the subject is moving, and looks worse than the 80D I'm currently using.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> The R is not an "upgrade" to the 6 or 5 body. It's a different camera altogether. I don't think there will be much issue there. Apart from sensor resolution, the R specs are on par or better than the A7R3 and comes in for $1000 less (plus you get Canon color science which is still better than Sony's). Also there is a yet to be seen second Canon Mirrorless FF body rumored to be revealed early/mid next year that would be an even higher end model than this. I think the price is pretty much dead on. It's much more akin to the 5D4 than the 6D2 and it's only about $400 more than the 6 but $1000 less than the 5. To me it's a steal. But you have to be willing to either use adapters (for those of us who already have extensive EF libraries) or you pick up new glass (which is what I may do)



I don't mind using adapters as long as Canon claims they're going to work flawlessly. But as I stated in one of my previous messages, I can't find major benefits in upgrading from my 5DMkIV to R. It doesn't even look like an upgrade. Flip screen would be nice to have and that's all. I lose dual card slot and GPS and I'm not sure if R is weather-sealed better than 5D4.
Dual card slot is a kinda borderline that makes R the same class as 6DII, not 5D4.

I think Canon will never release 6DMkIII or 5DMkV. We'll have something like 5R to continue 5D line.


----------



## Act444 (Sep 5, 2018)

Can’t wait to try one. 

It cannot be a replacement for a 5D4/5DSR (not even close), waaaay too slow for anything moving/lower resolution...BUT...it *could* make a great travel camera with a compact enough lens. And unlike the M series, zero compromise on IQ - you’ve still got a FF sensor...hmm.


----------



## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

dock77 said:


> Seems like there is some type of IBIS. At least for video. Is this what others understand to be true?


IBIS for video is digital stabilization like in the 6D - it's in the white paper on EOS R which you can read here. Page 33 in the "EOS R System White Paper" link


----------



## bbb34 (Sep 5, 2018)

fox40phil said:


> And how about R lenses on EF bodys?!



That can be done with the help of a hydraulic press.


----------



## Deleted member 380306 (Sep 5, 2018)

dock77 said:


> Seems like there is some type of IBIS. At least for video. Is this what others understand to be true?



Yes it seems if you attach older lenses without IS then you have the advantage of using the camera’s 5-axis electronic Image Stabilization however as you point out that is for video only. It a shame it's not for stills as many of us were counting on the IS feature for our older lenses...


----------



## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I don't mind using adapters as long as Canon claims they're going to work flawlessly. But as I stated in one of my previous messages, I can't find major benefits in upgrading from my 5DMkIV to R. It doesn't even look like an upgrade. Flip screen would be nice to have and that's all. I lose dual card slot and GPS and I'm not sure if R is weather-sealed better than 5D4.
> Dual card slot is a kinda borderline that makes R the same class as 6DII, not 5D4.
> 
> I think Canon will never release 6DMkIII or 5DMkV. We'll have something like 5R to continue 5D line.


It's the weather sealing that I am still curious about, but obviously that's pretty hard to validate. A bit troubling that they have some different language on weather sealing than used previously (although I think that was in the leak information to be fair). Further, I haven't seen anything regarding how well that weather sealing works with the adapters, so even as a second body I'd be a bit concerned to use this as a backup to my 5D IV considering what I put that through.


----------



## BurningPlatform (Sep 5, 2018)

Looks like I'll finally upgrade my 5d mk2 and Panasonic GX80. Or maybe not, as I have some vintage lenses that get stabilized on the GX80 IBIS. Electronic stabilization, though fixing shaky footage, tends to introduce blur when used with standard 180 degree shutter speeds (at least on 25/30 fps video). But well. Difficult decisions. Maybe wait for the FF Panasonic?


----------



## nchoh (Sep 5, 2018)

gmrza said:


> I suspect Canon will continue to build EF lenses for a long time. Especially for the "big white" category, it will make sense to focus on EF and use an adaptor. It primarily makes sense for Canon to initially focus on the smaller lenses which will be the ones that users who value a more compact system will be looking for.
> 
> The people who should probably be more concerned are the owners of EOS M systems. The bit about support for EF-S lenses almost seems to imply that the EOS R system will have include APS-C bodies. What will happen to the EOS M range and EF-M mount?



I don't think that EOS M users need worry. The reason why EF-S is supported is because EF-S is pretty much EF, but restricted. Once you use the EF adaptor on the EOS R, the restriction on the EF-S lens goes away. So the addition of EF-S lenses is a freebee, other than cropping the image down (which is done in software.

The EF-M lens mount is a totally different mount from the EF-M and Canon will have to create a totally separate EFM to R adaptor. Canon would obviously not rush to do that as the EF-M selection is small and not a whole lot of M lenses are out there compared to EF, and they might also not want to do it for segmentation purposes. Or they might just release the EFM to R adaptor later.

In any case, I don't think EF-M is going away.


----------



## DaveGrice (Sep 5, 2018)

Haydn1971 said:


> ...I'd have to think long and hard about moving over to a native RF set of lenses...



Yep. Right now, I know that if I need to jump systems, my EF L glass can reasonably be adapted to other manufacturer's bodies. I don't think there'll be the same incentive for them to adapt RF glass, as that might risk a reverse migration to Canon. 

Think I'll be sitting on my current lens purchases for the next 1-2 years to see how this lays out.


----------



## DaveGrice (Sep 5, 2018)

VOTOXY said:


> ...Do you guys know when can we expect an announcement of the higher end model?...



From the immediate reactions from the Canon-faithful, I'm betting whatever that date is, it's being moved forward now


----------



## onelifesoliveit (Sep 5, 2018)

ken said:


> "Better" is highly subjective. For me, it comes down to:
> 
> Stay with Canon:
> pros
> ...


The biggest question for me is how the new camera would drive the old EF-s lenses not only in means of photo resolving ability but also AF speed. Even with native lenses (the prices of the lenses are higher than Sony), AF is limited at servo mode. This is a deal breaker for me.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

AlanF said:


> But, for tracking priority' mode in AF-C, the frame rate drops to just 3 fps.


This is the biggest negative for me, and pretty much eliminates this camera from action shooting like BIF. However, there are plenty of other uses for which I think it would be a great option. I would really like it for landscape shooting.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 5, 2018)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> Nope. It's 10. The Panasonic Lumix G1 was first announced in October 2008.



The EOS M was introduced in 2012, so actually only 4 years!


----------



## weixing (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveGrice said:


> Yep. Right now, I know that if I need to jump systems, my EF L glass can reasonably be adapted to other manufacturer's bodies. I don't think there'll be the same incentive for them to adapt RF glass, as that might risk a reverse migration to Canon.
> 
> Think I'll be sitting on my current lens purchases for the next 1-2 years to see how this lays out.


Hi,
I think Canon will still develop new EF mount lens because EF lens can work on EF/RF mount and the drop in filter is really useful.... only those special lens that can take advantage of the close flange distance will use RF mount.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Sep 5, 2018)

I am very tempted by this except for 2 reasons that I am sure will be resolved by the time a more pro R body is released:
- The 600mm mark 3 is EF just now, so until I see this on RF I can't be 100% sure
- The current body uses SD. I will wait for CFExpress so I can be sure that with a fresh start I am starting off right


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 5, 2018)

Etienne said:


> Hopefully they read the full sensor for both 4K and 1080p, no line-skipping. That's Sony's secret sauce for high quality video without moire and aliasing.



That's correct. Now I believe the 5D IV(and likely this camera) crops the sensor down to the point of 1:1 for 4K, just like Magic Lantern when recording at a custom resolution. Sony still struggled with sensor readout speed even with their secret sauce for the first couple generations of the A7R, hence why it performed better in the Super 35 crop mode, and it's part of the reason why they made the lower resolution A7S. 

Oddly enough, the D850 performs better than the A7R III, despite starting off with a similar Sony Sensor. Nikon spends most of their R&D building off the already developed Sony sensor and redesigning the pipeline, resulting in a better readout and better color. I wish Canon would follow a similar approach instead of being the jack of all trades and designing almost everything from the ground up.


----------



## weixing (Sep 5, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> This is the biggest negative for me, and pretty much eliminates this camera from action shooting like BIF. However, there are plenty of other uses for which I think it would be a great option. I would really like it for landscape shooting.


Hi,
IMHO, this is not a sport and wildlife camera... it's basically a 6D2 with C-Log 4K. I personally will wait for the next EF or RF mount 7D3 or whatever.

Have a nice day.


----------



## CanonGrunt (Sep 5, 2018)

Canon LOG, 4k 422 external 10 bit, H.264, ALL I 480 Mbps, 12 Stops Dynamic range.

4k 420 internal Mp4 8 bit ALL I 

Duel Pixel Auto Focus in 4k. Duel Pixel Focus Guide. Focus Peaking. 

UHD, unfortunately not DCI 4K, but hey you can't have everything. 

Has a mic jack. Tilty screen. 

Movie Distortion Correction & Digital 5 axis in body IS for movie recording, and Combination IS when an IS lens is attached. 

Super 35 crop in 4k, I'd have loved Full Frame or the 1.3 from the 1DC days, but at least it's not the 1.7 like the 5D4 got; and Super 35 pairs with the Cinema Cameras, so that's fine. 


This is absolutely geared towards the video community, vloggers, indie film makers, and you tubers that have been flocking to Sony & Pannasonic. This camera will sell well to this crowd, and hey, those photography features ain't bad either.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 5, 2018)

amorse said:


> On the bright side, the camera will take an EF-S lens and if you use that to film 4K you will have a near full APS-C equivalent readout. It's certainly not the best option, but it is better than the 5D IV's implementation of 4K.



True, but at that point it's better to buy the cheaper A7 III or Z6. The A7 III already has a decent adapter for EF lenses and wouldn't require investing in EF-S. The A7 III can at least hold over a Canon hybrid shooter over until there's a better hybrid from Canon.


----------



## CanonGrunt (Sep 5, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> That's correct. Now I believe the 5D IV(and likely this camera) crops the sensor down to the point of 1:1 for 4K, just like Magic Lantern when recording at a custom resolution. Sony still struggled with sensor readout speed even with their secret sauce for the first couple generations of the A7R, hence why it performed better in the Super 35 crop mode, and it's part of the reason why they made the lower resolution A7S.
> 
> Oddly enough, the D850 performs better than the A7R III, despite starting off with a similar Sony Sensor. Nikon spends most of their R&D building off the already developed Sony sensor and redesigning the pipeline, resulting in a better readout and better color. I wish Canon would follow a similar approach instead of being the jack of all trades and designing almost everything from the ground up.




Super 35 Crop according to Canon website. UHD not DCI 4k.


----------



## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveGrice said:


> From the immediate reactions from the Canon-faithful, I'm betting whatever that date is, it's being moved forward now


I don't know, part of me wonders if this was announced here as Canon's way of saying "we're making full frame mirrorless too!" I don't think this is intended to compete with the a7RIII, and I'm betting they really want to get that one right in the fine details and if that takes longer, so be it!

The EOS R looks like a great camera, but it seems to me that they put a lot of effort into the things that get noticed by buyers in a camera store, and less of the things that may be dealbreakers for forum dwellers. Really sharp EVF, faster lenses, great ergonomics - things you notice when you pick one up in a store and try to use it in a controlled environment. 

I am betting on a higher resolution version which has more of the features expected in a 5D series camera with a different battery system to accommodate the greater battery drain. If they're launching lenses not possible on EF as per their white paper, I'd bet they're planning on releasing a very high end model, but maybe need to work on a few things to create the experience of a DSLR.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 5, 2018)

neo302 said:


> They needed to release a super wide RF lens with that 4K 1.6 crop.
> You can't vlog 4K with a 24mm lens, or a 3lb lens (28-70). The 24-105 also has a min. focusing distance of 17.71 inches...
> Yes, you can adapt to an ef-s lens (no 60P) 10-18 which is much lower quality or use an other existing wider lens that will introduce noise when focusing. Unfortunately, this likely won't work for me.



Out of interest, what is the typical FF focal length equivalent used for vlogging?


----------



## scyrene (Sep 5, 2018)

ptogel said:


> Is it just me or does this feel like a mirrorless 6d. One card slot?



Just you.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonGrunt said:


> Super 35 Crop according to Canon website. UHD not DCI 4k.



They might call it the Super 35, but it's a bit tighter than that. Close to 1.7 vs. 1.5. It turns the nice 28-70 2.0 into a 47-175.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 5, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> I can't imagine what the "pro" model would look like. Already have 30MP, 8fps, 5000AF points via DPAF, Magnesium body... What else is there? 60MP? few more FPS? 60fps slo-mo in 4K? There IS a debate to be made that the next model would be the more dedicated video machine, where we see a LOWER res sensor than this. Time will tell!



Of course there are many different types of pros, but I'd look at the 1Dx2 and see what features it has that are missing here. I guess more fps, more robust construction/sealing, bigger body, better high ISO (but maybe lower resolution), different card slot(s)?


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 5, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Out of interest, what is the typical FF focal length equivalent used for vlogging?



17-40 and 16-35 are good full frame vlogging choices.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

amorse said:


> It's the weather sealing that I am still curious about, but obviously that's pretty hard to validate. A bit troubling that they have some different language on weather sealing than used previously (although I think that was in the leak information to be fair). Further, I haven't seen anything regarding how well that weather sealing works with the adapters, so even as a second body I'd be a bit concerned to use this as a backup to my 5D IV considering what I put that through.



I could only find 'dust and drip resistance' mentioned in the white paper here but it was more about the lens mount and lenses. Nothing about the camera itself. My 5D4 was in quite bad sudden weather conditions and survived and it's a major feature to me.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 5, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> 17-40 and 16-35 are good full frame vlogging choices.



Thanks.

So 24mm with the 4K crop factor is ~40mm, so just about fits in that range. But if one is just filming oneself talk, the camera can just be moved further away, right? I've never quite understood the angst about the crop thing, and there are ultrawide lenses that cover it anyhow, especially with EF-S compatibility.


----------



## Colorado (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> But as I stated in one of my previous messages, I can't find major benefits in upgrading from my 5DMkIV to R. It doesn't even look like an upgrade. Flip screen would be nice to have and that's all. I lose dual card slot and GPS and I'm not sure if R is weather-sealed better than 5D4.


The 5D4 is $3500 MSRP and you can get it for $3100. The R is $2300 and you can get it for $???? soon. The R gives you the 5D4 sensor (with maybe some processing improvements) for $1000 to 1200 less. I'm honestly shocked Canon is making a FF sensor of that quality available at that price.

That said the R is not an upgrade to the 5D4. It's clearly positioned in between the 6D and the 5D. Both with price and with features. An individual may or may not want it depending on their requirements and their current equipment.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2018)

fullstop said:


> The White paper contains a lot of good information. Especially on the RF lenses ... comparing them to EF lenses ... in surprisingly clear language. Not seen such clean cut "direct comparison to other Canon products" before in a Canon White paper. Recommended read.
> https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/misc-pages/eos-r/pdf/canon_eos_r_white_paper.pdf
> 
> @neuroanatomist you may want to have a look at p. 22ff ... the new "Thin-type" Nano USM AF drive implemented in the RF 24-105 and optical performance compared to EF 24-105/4 L IS II and EF 24-105/3.5-6.3


Yep. But I’m not seeing the ‘significant improvements in optical capability’ and ‘substantial reductions in size/weight’ that some people claimed would be the hallmark of lenses designed for FF MILCs. The RF 24-105/4 is optically pretty similar to the EF 24-105/4 II, which is pretty optically similar to its predecessor. The RF version is a little shorter than the EF MkII, and the same size as the EF MkI. 

The RF version does use a linear NanoUSM motor (good call on your part!), and it’s focus-by-wire like all the RF lenses. Do you like manual focus with FBW lenses? I have it on my EF-M lenses, and I had it on my 85/1.2L II. Personally, I think it sucks. Actually, you may not care, since you have stated you find manual focus dispensable and irrelevant.


----------



## CanonGrunt (Sep 5, 2018)

Colorado said:


> The 5D4 is $3500 MSRP and you can get it for $3100. The R is $2300 and you can get it for $???? soon. The R gives you the 5D4 sensor (with maybe some processing improvements) for $1000 to 1200 less. I'm honestly shocked Canon is making a FF sensor of that quality available at that price.
> 
> That said the R is not an upgrade to the 5D4. It's clearly positioned in between the 6D and the 5D. Both with price and with features. An individual may or may not want it depending on their requirements and their current equipment.




It's definitely for video people. It has all the features (except full frame 4k), and more that people kept complaining were not in the 5D IV at launch. The 5D4, and 1D Series are still the heavy hitting in the field photography Cameras. The better weather sealing on them and all that. More rugged. A lot more breakable parts on the R. It's definitely priced to compete in the video market. Specially against Panasonic, but Sony as well. The advantage for Canon is that a lot of video people that went over to Sony and the Panasonic GH5s were still using Canon glass on adaptors, and Canon knows that. They have a decent chance at luring many of them back in, especially with Canon Log, DPAF, Canon color, and all those other Canon specific goodies.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Sep 5, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So 24mm with the 4K crop factor is ~40mm, so just about fits in that range. But if one is just filming oneself talk, the camera can just be moved further away, right? I've never quite understood the angst about the crop thing, and there are ultrawide lenses that cover it anyhow, especially with EF-S compatibility.



The vlogging choices I gave are based on using the camera without a crop, so the 1080 mode or a 4K camera with no or little crop. It's always best to move the camera as far away from you when vlogging, but the tighter the focal length(or equivalent), the shot will have more camera shake. To me, the crop is annoying because I wouldn't want to pay the extra for a full frame and not be able to use it, plus you'd have to change lenses when switching from photos to video. For some like yourself, it may not be a problem.


----------



## transpo1 (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonGrunt said:


> Canon LOG, 4k 422 external 10 bit, H.264, ALL I 480 Mbps, 12 Stops Dynamic range.
> 
> 4k 420 internal Mp4 8 bit ALL I
> 
> ...



Overall, a positive step forward for video with this camera. This will likely stop the bleeding of mainstream video customers, vloggers, video influencers to the competition. However, without FF 4K or 60p, it probably will not win many back who have already migrated to other systems.

This is a camera meant for photographers primarily and I applaud Canon for all the photography innovation they've packed into it. Video is improved, but unfortunately still has a ways to go.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 5, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yep. But I’m not seeing the ‘significant improvements in optical capability’ and ‘substantial reductions in size/weight’ that some people claimed would be the hallmark of lenses designed for FF MILCs. The RF 24-105/4 is optically pretty similar to the EF 24-105/4 II, which is pretty optically similar to its predecessor. The RF version is a little shorter than the EF MkII, and the same size as the EF MkI.
> 
> The RF version does use a linear NanoUSM motor (good call on your part!), and it’s focus-by-wire like all the RF lenses. Do you like manual focus with FBW lenses? I have it on my EF-M lenses, and I had it on my 85/1.2L II. * Personally, I think it sucks*. Actually, you may not care, since you have stated you find manual focus dispensable and irrelevant.



I am guessing that the faster comms rate of the R mount is to remove the lag in the FBW, which should reduce the suck?


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## transpo1 (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonGrunt said:


> It's definitely for video people. It has all the features (except full frame 4k), and more that people kept complaining were not in the 5D IV at launch. The 5D4, and 1D Series are still the heavy hitting in the field photography Cameras. The better weather sealing on them and all that. More rugged. A lot more breakable parts on the R. It's definitely priced to compete in the video market. Specially against Panasonic, but Sony as well. The advantage for Canon is that a lot of video people that went over to Sony and the Panasonic GH5s were still using Canon glass on adaptors, and Canon knows that. They have a decent chance at luring many of them back in, especially with Canon Log, DPAF, Canon color, and all those other Canon specific goodies.



Agree- _decent chance_ at luring them back is the operative phrase


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## CanonGrunt (Sep 5, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So 24mm with the 4K crop factor is ~40mm, so just about fits in that range. But if one is just filming oneself talk, the camera can just be moved further away, right? I've never quite understood the angst about the crop thing, and there are ultrawide lenses that cover it anyhow, especially with EF-S compatibility.



A lot of Vloggers, you tubers, indie filmmakers, and film school kids I know (and that's a massive market) use GH5's, and those are Micro Four Thirds cameras with a hell of a cropped sensor. So no, the crop isn't that big of a limitation for shooting, people either just want to make a big deal about it, or really want Full Frame 4k like we first had Full Frame HD when the 5D2 came out, alas, crop it is for now. 

However, that seems to be how they are achieving the 5 axis in body movie stabilization and movie distortion correction by 'punching in' with a crop. So that will be a lovely trade off for some. A lot of filmmakers I know are punching in anyway in post to get rid of camera shake when they have to do run and gun stuff. So the 5 axis, and even better combination IS system on this in 4K will actually cut out a lot of post production and mis framing for the indie crowd. Not a bad compromise. 

There are lots of lovely lens options we can use with this camera thankfully. The 10-22 EF-S comes to mind.


----------



## transpo1 (Sep 5, 2018)

Colorado said:


> The 5D4 is $3500 MSRP and you can get it for $3100. The R is $2300 and you can get it for $???? soon. The R gives you the 5D4 sensor (with maybe some processing improvements) for $1000 to 1200 less. I'm honestly shocked Canon is making a FF sensor of that quality available at that price.
> 
> That said the R is not an upgrade to the 5D4. It's clearly positioned in between the 6D and the 5D. Both with price and with features. An individual may or may not want it depending on their requirements and their current equipment.



One question I haven't seen asked (though admittedly I haven't read all of the hundreds of forum pages):

Canon registered more than one FF mirrorless camera. It looks like we've got the first one, but the second one is unreleased. 

Did they decide not to release it? 

Or is it a higher end EOS-R (different sensor) that they are saving for release next year? 

I don't know much about the registration/release process and history, so feel free to chime in here, but seems like they decided to only release one camera for now and that we may get another one in 2019.

_K424
_

_Mirrorless camera_
_Full frame_
_Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed_
_Not compatible with smartphone’s Bluetooth remote control function_
_Maximum size of test image: 6720 × 4480_
_(Judging from the progress of development) Release in late 2018 to early 2019_
_K433
_

_Mirrorless camera_
_Probably full frame_
_Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed_
_Compatible with smartphone’s Bluetooth remote control function_
_Probably released in 2019_

https://www.canonrumors.com/the-full-list-of-unreleased-canon-camera-ids/


----------



## stg_george (Sep 5, 2018)

disappointed..
just a little better than 6d mark 2.. lenses are nice ,but the body..

crippled eye af (maybe will be fixed with software)
only 1080p at 60fps
4k cropped (useless for me)
5fps with AF
single sd card slot
no in body stabilization
and more..

for $2300 is not worth it ,maybe $1600/$1700

sony is looking better and better ,and no ,i'm not a fanboy ,just looking to buy/invest in a new sistem..
waiting for photokina maybe will be anything else announced


----------



## hne (Sep 5, 2018)

No lens stabilisation can compensate for camera roll. Canon's digital video stabilisation only works with lenses with IS IIRC. So no 18-35/1.8 Art with stabilisation. Would have been nice, what with the 4K crop.

Other than that, I'm pleased to see the EF-R adapter not having a rectangular hole. There goes the mirror box bokeh ball clipping for lenses faster than f/1.8! Finally!


----------



## Shutter Up (Sep 5, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> I was seriously hoping the camera/lens/adapter package would be around 3k. Looks like it's at least 3500 instead.
> 
> *The a7III is looking pretty good at this point. More realistically I'll be looking at upgrading my prosumer camera setup in the spring. The a7IV should be out by then with even more refinements. *I guess I'll have some serious thinking to do. At least it looks like I could use a few of my ef-s lenses on this camera, with much less resolution. The FPS leaves much to be desired if the subject is moving, and looks worse than the 80D I'm currently using.



Actually, Sony does not upgrade the same camera line every year. It’s a common misconception, but it is an understandable one. If you look at Sony’s A7 series timeline, It only happened once, when they released the A7 in 2013 and then A7 II in 2014. I believe there was a need for Sony at that time to market their mirrorless full-frame cameras more aggressively. After that, Sony took 4 years to upgrade from A7 II (released in 2014) to A7 III (released in 2018). In fact, Sony didn’t even announce any A7/ A7R/ A7S product in 2016. The A7S II might be the next camera to get an upgrade. It's now on its 3rd year and counting…You'll have to wait a little longer for their A7 IV release.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 5, 2018)

Colorado said:


> The 5D4 is $3500 MSRP and you can get it for $3100. The R is $2300 and you can get it for $???? soon. The R gives you the 5D4 sensor (with maybe some processing improvements) for $1000 to 1200 less. I'm honestly shocked Canon is making a FF sensor of that quality available at that price.



Maybe that's what Canon meant by saying they wouldn't mind cannibalising their own cameras. Also it may suggest they have a better sensor and camera in development to replace 5D4 eventually.



Colorado said:


> That said the R is not an upgrade to the 5D4. It's clearly positioned in between the 6D and the 5D. Both with price and with features. An individual may or may not want it depending on their requirements and their current equipment.



Yeah, it's definitely between but closer to 6D2 in my opinion.

And this review 



 agrees it's between 6D2 and 5D4 but closer to 6D2. Also they say weather-sealing is not on par with 5D4.


----------



## Aaron D (Sep 5, 2018)

Absolutely breathtaking. I hope everybody who has been gnashing their teeth about the grip can get over it now. It has a grip! And I hope everybody who wants IBIS will invest a few minutes and read Canon's white paper. If your lens has IS engineered specifically to that lens's characteristics, you don't NEED or want a redundant, unnecessary, blanket-solution IBIS mucking up rock-solid sensor location. Embrace the future or continue to grind your own pigments. (obtuse reference to painters who refuse to consider buying a camera) I'm guessing all the Pry-the-EF-from-my-cold-dead-hands crowd is already in line for a new Sony and won't be reading this blog anymore.


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## psolberg (Sep 5, 2018)

well it could be worse . As predicted expectations were far too high and people still don't get both Nikon/Canon are very conservative companies that were not going to come out with 1DX and D5s without mirror slapping day one. Sony's A7SIII is off course going to be a dazzling spectacle of specs so if you dislike sony fan comments, block them for the next few months . But regardless, everything leaked was right except it does have eye-AF. It may be only in single shot mode, but hey it's a start! no surprises on the video spec as it is the 5D4 sensor after all. Lenses are a good start, although the lineup is going to be pathetic and anemic compared to the stablished Sony for years. you're going to be adapting most of the time and better get on with the program.

Yes, 2019 will bring new models from everybody, including canon. But today this is it...., and I'm not that impressed in just about any area except the potential of the AF system but clearly the camera is holding it back with its inability to exceed 5fps with AF and deny Eye-AF except in single shot mode. I suppose video AF will be good but the crop kills it.

Lenses things look a bit more interesting. For me, the f/2 zoom doesn't really entice me as its range is too limited over what was already limited 24-70, and in that range I rather shoot 1.2 or 1.4 primes which will have far superior bokeh. Not to say some of you will not benefit from losing wide angle FOV for an extra stop and prefer zooms vs primes. That's just not me. The rest are just boring filler lenses I'll never care for, except the 1.2 prime (it better be good for the price). Looking forward to its comparisons with the 1.4 sony and the f/0.95 noct. Pixel peeping will be made great again!

The adapters look completely overpriced except for the entry level one. Feels like a pokemon game: this one has this, this one has that...but no, can't have one with both! If you care for each feature...why not just make a SKU with all of it instead of having all these damn things laying around playing a game of find the right adapter. but choice yai! 

Besides that, IMO the new mount is good news long term as it avoids clunky solutions like sticking a rear element "rear ass" inside a mount, and more compact cameras that do not look like pig snout. Best of luck to those that buy it. I'm sure it will be enjoyable.


----------



## weixing (Sep 5, 2018)

Hi,
When change lens, the sensor is covered... finally, Canon had some common sense. I hate changing lens with my M5 in the field as the sensor is fully expose to the element.

Have a nice day.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 5, 2018)

Etienne said:


> Hopefully they read the full sensor for both 4K and 1080p, no line-skipping. That's Sony's secret sauce for high quality video without moire and aliasing.


the way the sony models and the Z6 do it is they do a full 6K readout without line skipping then downscale it to 4K. There is no such thing as "full sensor" readout in video for those particular cameras as the format for 4k is 16:9. What people mean is full sensor width.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> When change lens, the sensor is covered... finally, Canon had some common sense. I hate changing lens with my M5 in the field as the sensor is fully expose to the element.
> 
> Have a nice day.


I’m not so sure. I did see that lens diaphragm closed down to protect sensor from too much light when camera powered down. But no mention that I saw of covering sensor when changing lenses. Did I miss it?


----------



## NetMage (Sep 5, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> I wish Canon would follow a similar approach instead of being the jack of all trades and designing almost everything from the ground up.



The we wouldn’t have DPAF!


----------



## bokehmon22 (Sep 5, 2018)

stg_george said:


> disappointed..
> just a little better than 6d mark 2.. lenses are nice ,but the body..
> 
> crippled eye af (maybe will be fixed with software)
> ...



Sony has the best value but I HATE their ergonomic and EVF. Those two are deal breaker for me.

There is no perfect camera, it just what you are willing to compromise.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

Other than that, I'm pleased to see the EF-R adapter not having a rectangular hole. There goes the mirror box bokeh ball clipping for lenses faster than f/1.8! Finally![/QUOTE]
Good point, it will be interesting to see some bokeh comparisons.


----------



## degos (Sep 5, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> And I hope everybody who wants IBIS will invest a few minutes and read Canon's white paper. If your lens has IS engineered specifically to that lens's characteristics, you don't NEED or want a redundant, unnecessary, blanket-solution IBIS mucking up rock-solid sensor location.



That's just an Apple-esque deflection. Ideas that couldn't be incorporated in this revision are pointless and unnecessary, until they appear in version X of the product and suddenly they're the best thing ever.

Overall this is pretty 'meh' to me, it's an overpriced mirrorless 6D2 for rich vloggers. I can see why they started with that segment of the market, and it's nice to see Canon moving into the future, but until a 7R / R7 appears then I'll not be opening my wallet.


----------



## bergstrom (Sep 5, 2018)

as much as they can market it to death as the coming greater than the messiah, it has no eye focus, which a lot of us were hoping for.


----------



## weixing (Sep 5, 2018)

bergstrom said:


> as much as they can market it to death as the coming greater than the messiah, it has no eye focus, which a lot of us were hoping for.


Hi,
It's has eye focus AF... might not be as good as Sony version, but Canon will have firmware upgrade to improve it in the near future.

Have a nice day.


----------



## weixing (Sep 5, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> I’m not so sure. I did see that lens diaphragm closed down to protect sensor from too much light when camera powered down. But no mention that I saw of covering sensor when changing lenses. Did I miss it?


Hi,
Saw this in this youtuber video: 




Have a nice day.


----------



## Freddell (Sep 5, 2018)

neo302 said:


> They needed to release a super wide RF lens with that 4K 1.6 crop.
> You can't vlog 4K with a 24mm lens, or a 3lb lens (28-70). The 24-105 also has a min. focusing distance of 17.71 inches...
> Yes, you can adapt to an ef-s lens (no 60P) 10-18 which is much lower quality or use an other existing wider lens that will introduce noise when focusing. Unfortunately, this likely won't work for me.



In fact as mentioned in the excellent Click Mag Ep25 presentation, just mount a EF-S EF-S 10-18mm f/4.5-5.6 IS STM.
The EF/EF-S adapter comes standard with the body only package. The EF-S compatibility is a killer feature.

I was shying away from 6DmkII for the bad low light performance, dynamic range, narrow auto focus compared to 6D
and the 5D mk IV does not have a tilty flippy screen and is a lot more expensive
As negative as I was regarding the EoS R, these two features make up almost everything. Not to mention the seemingly great quality of the announced lenses.

Now the remaining negative is battery life, no built in fill flash.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

degos said:


> That's just an Apple-esque deflection. Ideas that couldn't be incorporated in this revision are pointless and unnecessary, until they appear in version X of the product and suddenly they're the best thing ever.
> 
> Overall this is pretty 'meh' to me, it's an overpriced mirrorless 6D2 for rich vloggers. I can see why they started with that segment of the market, and it's nice to see Canon moving into the future, but until a 7R / R7 appears then I'll not be opening my wallet.


Your spouse will be pleased.


----------



## Freddell (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yeah AF seems to be a very strong point here. It looks like it'll outperform all other vlogging cameras. But I mostly shoot stills. I wouldn't mind super fast new AF but it's already great on my 5D4.
> 
> But I don't understand how people discuss and review it as if it were a pure video camera. Like in this review quoted above:
> 
> ...



Was this fimed using a R? Everything was out of focus and blurry..


----------



## stevewhitemd (Sep 5, 2018)

People who complain that the 'R' is just a mirrorless 6Dm2 miss the point -- that's exactly right. Canon is starting in the middle.

When Apple transitioned from PowerPC to Intel, they started at the lower end and moved up. The market supported that, and they were able to complete their transition into the higher end machines within a year. Canon will likely do the same: the R will be followed by a higher end R (or two) that are similar to (perhaps extend) the 1Dx and 5D. While I prefer that Canon leave APS-C sensors in the M series cameras, I suspect we'll see an APS-C sensor in an R series, ala a '7R', within the year as well.

This is hockey -- look where the puck is going, not where it is. Canon is starting at the level of the 6D, but that's just a start.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 5, 2018)

I stand corrected, the RF 35mm macro is 1:2, not 1:1:

Play this starting at 5:05:






- A


----------



## ecpu (Sep 5, 2018)

Well, the three major items for me didn't happen: 4K Full Frame (no crop), 120FPS 1080P and IBIS.

I just placed my A7III order. I've always used Canon cameras. This is going to be an interesting transition.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 5, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yep. But I’m not seeing the ‘significant improvements in optical capability’ and ‘substantial reductions in size/weight’ that some people claimed would be the hallmark of lenses designed for FF MILCs. The RF 24-105/4 is optically pretty similar to the EF 24-105/4 II, which is pretty optically similar to its predecessor. The RF version is a little shorter than the EF MkII, and the same size as the EF MkI.
> 
> The RF version does use a linear NanoUSM motor (good call on your part!), and it’s focus-by-wire like all the RF lenses. Do you like manual focus with FBW lenses? I have it on my EF-M lenses, and I had it on my 85/1.2L II. Personally, I think it sucks. Actually, you may not care, since you have stated you find manual focus dispensable and irrelevant.



Optically the RF is at least on par with the EF 24-105 II. And it is "a bit smaller & lighter". But "mirrorfree short FFD size advantage" apparently is not very large at 105mm focal length. Will be interesting to see whether or not Canon manages to get more size advantage for [possible future] RF 24-70/4 and 16-35/4 lenses ... and smaller primes with "moderately fast" aperture. 

Focus by wire - with a "really right" implementation [lag-free, totally responsive, smooth stepless control, no "play"] I am sure it is better than mechanical gears. Hope it is done well on the RF lenses. 

Personally I hardly ever use manual focusing. I prefer a good AF system doing its job. And yes, I'd buy lenses without focus ring if they were available.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> Saw this in this youtuber video:
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for confirming that there is sensor protector (shutter) when changing lenses. Maybe this will alleviate some of the dust issues I have heard from Sony users.


----------



## Colorado (Sep 5, 2018)

stg_george said:


> for $2300 is not worth it ,maybe $1600/$1700


I also would like to be able to buy a camera with the 5D4 sensor for $1600. Additionally, I'd like be able to buy a mirrorless camera with the 5DS sensor for the same price.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yep I've already figured the price
> 
> Among existing Canon FF owners, I think 5DMkIV owners won't upgrade to R (some may consider it as a secondary camera). There's no or little point to change 5D4 for R. Flip screen is the only major advantage. I think R fills the gap between 6DMkII and 5DMkIV, but it's closer to 6DMkII. So 6D or 6DMkII owners may consider upgrading to R.
> 
> ...


With a £ 750 price gap between the 6D MKII and the EOS-R then your prediction will likely not happen. Canon can afford to lower the price of the 6D MKII and still make good money. Secondly why buy the EOS-R and use an adaptor (another £ 100) when there are cheaper EF lenses than work fine on the 6D MKII without adaptors. 

The EOS-R will likely appeal to new users to Canon and to pros / prosumers and less so to the value customers at this point.


----------



## koenkooi (Sep 5, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yep. But I’m not seeing the ‘significant improvements in optical capability’ and ‘substantial reductions in size/weight’ that some people claimed would be the hallmark of lenses designed for FF MILCs. The RF 24-105/4 is optically pretty similar to the EF 24-105/4 II, which is pretty optically similar to its predecessor. The RF version is a little shorter than the EF MkII, and the same size as the EF MkI.
> 
> The RF version does use a linear NanoUSM motor (good call on your part!), and it’s focus-by-wire like all the RF lenses. Do you like manual focus with FBW lenses? I have it on my EF-M lenses, and I had it on my 85/1.2L II. Personally, I think it sucks. Actually, you may not care, since you have stated you find manual focus dispensable and irrelevant.



In one of the canon press clips on youtube they showed a menu on the R camera where you could reverse the focus ring and tweak its sensitivity. That combined with the option to turn on automatic zoom when doing MF sounds like an improvement over the current system. 
But the proof is in the pudding


----------



## adamfilip (Sep 5, 2018)

So far I really like this announcement.
Crazy number of AF Points. GREAT!
EYE AF. Amazing. (really the only thing i wanted)
Compatible with EF lenses, Great!
Adapter isnt that crazy expensive!
Body isnt that tiny. Ive got big hands and the Sony A7.. are too small!
over 3Million EVF Points. Great!
Faster SD. Great!
RF Lens Ring for adjustment. COOL!
-6 EV Autofocus. SWEET!
So many great things in this release.


No IBIS.. ok no biggie, my 70-200 Lens has IS already, But i hardly need IS most of the Time
No Dual Card Slots.. Ive never had a SD card fail on me, dont use the 2nd slot in my 5DM3
4K Crop? I dont really shoot video. so this doesnt bother me. but i can understand why others are annoyed

Overall Great Job canon. im switching ASAP!


----------



## bergstrom (Sep 5, 2018)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> It's has eye focus AF... might not be as good as Sony version, but Canon will have firmware upgrade to improve it in the near future.
> 
> Have a nice day.



Oh ok, i thought the official spec list didn't have it.


----------



## FramerMCB (Sep 5, 2018)

VOTOXY said:


> It's a pass for me, I'll wait for the higher end model with IBIS, 2 card slots, and 1080p120.
> These were the 3 features I needed along side eyeAF...
> Do you guys know when can we expect an announcement of the higher end model ?


Probably, realistically sometime in the first quarter of 2019 - maybe mid-to-late January (at the earliest)...


----------



## Respinder (Sep 5, 2018)

I guess you can say I've been going through a series of emotions on this camera.
First off, there were the unhappy emotions of what I did not like..
- Slow FPS
- 4K cropped video (honestly I just don't know why they do this in 2018 - if it is due to overheating, then just provide multiple options to the user (i.e. full sensor readout AND cropped video mode) - this is just THE prime example to me of Canon's "subtractive" strategy of providing less, for more cost)
- Essentially same sensor as 5D Mark IV, with possible rolling shutter issues
- The design of the camera body (just looks like a EOS 650 to me, whereas 5D and 1D look like works-of-art)
- The fact that it doesn't natively connect EF lenses
- SD card slot (it doesn't matter whether its one or two slots, but for me, I would have preferred CFexpress)
- Lack of in-body stabilization

Then I started going in-depth into the videos, and there is actually quite a lot that I DO like about this camera..
- Industry-leading AF - I want to see more tests but it looks like a win-win
- Dual Pixel Autofocus
- C-Log
- Articulating flippy screen
- Absolutely incredible RF lens selection, including 28-70 f2 and 50 f1.2

BUT, what I really find revolutionary about this camera is the user experience, enabled by the UI. First off, the UI itself is excellent - as you'd expect from a Canon. But they've really taken it up several notches with the touch-sensitive control bar and controls right on the lenses, basically allowing for enhanced control of ISO/AF/Aperture/Shutter Speed without having your eyes ever leaving the viewfinder. The ability to see the ISO changes and the way they've implemented the UI in the viewfinder is really different from how I typically use a Canon DSLR, and they've solved a ton of UX issues that I've had in general (i.e. having to take my eyes off the viewfinder and look at the buttons I'm pressing for correct selection) - I really think these enhancements make it much easier to keep your eyes in the viewfinder and make the control adjustments you need to make.

Another big thing that isn't being talked about, is the difference in size with the EF adapter versus the F adapter on the Nikon Z. Canon has managed to develop a truly slim-profile adapter that you can barely see and sits flush with the lens - I really prefer their design. I am just not sure if it is fully weather-sealed (not necessarily for this particular body but for a future pro body)

IS IT the camera for me? I would say that the R lineup is definetely for me, but in terms of the camera, I really need something with a faster FPS and full-sensor 4K output if possible. One other thing I found curious is that they call this camera the "R", with no numerical designation. What then, would the "pro" model be referred to as? An RS? RX? etc.. not sure yet.. will be interesting what Canon's roadmap reveals. But without a numbering system, I also wonder how long we will need to wait before an announcement on the next body.

I guess for me it comes down to cash - if I had the money for two cameras, I'd begrudgingly buy this now and buy a second pro body in the future. But since I can really only afford a single body at the moment, I will simply have to wait it out longer. But I do like the direction that Canon is heading into. Future is bright.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 5, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yep. But I’m not seeing the ‘significant improvements in optical capability’ and ‘substantial reductions in size/weight’ that some people claimed would be the hallmark of lenses designed for FF MILCs. The RF 24-105/4 is optically pretty similar to the EF 24-105/4 II, which is pretty optically similar to its predecessor. The RF version is a little shorter than the EF MkII, and the same size as the EF MkI.
> 
> The RF version does use a linear NanoUSM motor (good call on your part!), and it’s focus-by-wire like all the RF lenses. Do you like manual focus with FBW lenses? I have it on my EF-M lenses, and I had it on my 85/1.2L II. Personally, I think it sucks. Actually, you may not care, since you have stated you find manual focus dispensable and irrelevant.



I didn't dig as deep as to realize all the RF lenses were FBW....yuck. I'm also not too thrilled with this.


----------



## AJ (Sep 5, 2018)

FWIW I think it should be possible to adapt FD lenses to R, something that was not really possible with EF.
I'm surprised they didn't include an R-mount ultrawide in the announcement. Such a lens stands to benefit most from the new mount format.


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## Takingshots (Sep 5, 2018)

Alas, I think it is in the right step for a mirrorless FF with an adapter for my EF Canon lens. I think I will buy one. Canon should match its pricing same as Nikon Z6 and Sony A7iii. It is a little tag high when you have to add the adpater to use your lens + taxes. Canon sure know how to squeeze a few hundred more out of your pocket. Canon, if you are listening... drop your the list price with a promo. 10Q


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## nchoh (Sep 5, 2018)

54mm vs 45.5mm
20mm vs 18mm

That's the difference between Canon's R mount and Sony's E mount. If you believe https://petapixel.com/2016/04/04/sonys-full-frame-pro-mirrorless-fatal-mistake/, Sony is currently facing challenges designing better lenses due to the small diameter and shorter flange distance.

Not much specs on the Sony comms protocol but I am sure that Canon has worked out the requirements of future lenses and given the new mount a "high-speed" protocol.

So if you are jumping off to Sony, good luck!


----------



## docmandy (Sep 5, 2018)

The R used in a coal mine https://www.canon.de/pro/stories/eos-r-daniel-etter/


----------



## jpcanon (Sep 5, 2018)

Yep learned my lesson. Hard discounts on canon hardware ? BUYER BEWARE. Now I remember why I stopped visiting the tech and photog hardware geek sites 10 yrs ago when I first got my rebel T1i. My photography was a lot more happier and rewarding doing that. I only wish Canon would have given me at least a year with my new 24-70
2.8 II and 6DII... but even that apparently is too hard nowadays. Perhaps the best thing here is to delete my account here , remove this site’s bookmark and go back to taking photos. My old ass EF junk still works doing that , I think. ::shrugs::

It was a good 3 months while it lasted though, canon rumors.


----------



## Act444 (Sep 5, 2018)

Respinder said:


> One other thing I found curious is that they call this camera the "R", with no numerical designation. What then, would the "pro" model be referred to as?



Might be like the “D” in 5D. The 5R, perhaps?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2018)

nchoh said:


> I am guessing that the faster comms rate of the R mount is to remove the lag in the FBW, which should reduce the suck?


What lens-body communication is required to support manual focus (other than power)?


----------



## nchoh (Sep 5, 2018)

Act444 said:


> Might be like the “D” in 5D. The 5R, perhaps?



More likely R5... like M5.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> What lens-body communication is required to support manual focus (other than power)?


Focus position (Distance) reported to the Camera body.
Edit: also aperture required when fired and IS info.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 5, 2018)

crazyrunner33 said:


> The vlogging choices I gave are based on using the camera without a crop, so the 1080 mode or a 4K camera with no or little crop. It's always best to move the camera as far away from you when vlogging, but the tighter the focal length(or equivalent), the shot will have more camera shake. To me, the crop is annoying because I wouldn't want to pay the extra for a full frame and not be able to use it, plus you'd have to change lenses when switching from photos to video. For some like yourself, it may not be a problem.



Thanks for the explanation


----------



## sebakunstpaul (Sep 5, 2018)

"This system is a marketing tool to enforce customer brand fidelity, not made with the photog in mind at-all. This system is a self-defense system for Canon. The new enhanced lens communication that facilitate the extra control ring on the lens is actually made to make you as a user more dependent on the canon line. Once you start getting used with this control system you will find harder to use other systems and psychologically a conditioning will occur to become a canon conservative. Next is the lack of IBIS and as i noticed no mention of focus peaking. Without these features you won't be able to easily use any full manual lenses either vintage or lenses like Samyang, Laowa, or Mayer Optics and Zeiss on the more expensive side. Even if you can use them your life will continue to be harder... so you will tend to keep using Canon lenses. With this approach, Canon probably also want to secure that they can justify the extra money they charge for the lenses, the extra control ring is an exclusive feature, also they can still justify and sell the IS in each lens since no IBIS. As a side-note is interesting to see if Canon will allow 3rd party lens manufacturers like SIgma or Tamron to implement the new control ring, also is questionable if that will be even profitable for Sigma and Tamron, since those lenses would be Canon only... I think in the long run this road is a bad one for Canon, since for creators on a lower budget like myself, or young creators who want to step up their game, Sony offers a solid system, where they can start with cheap good full manual lenses, possibility to adapt almost anything efficiently, offering also a growing collection of high-end lenses. I am really disappointed by Canon. I was really open to change my plans from buying a Sony. My first conclusion would be: stay away from Canon if you value gear versatility. Even if i own 6 Canon lenses and i plan also adding one of the more advanced film EOS camera to my kit, I think in respect of full frame mirrorless a Sony camera would fit much better as a versatile workhorse, allowing me to easily use and experiment with a huge range of lenses out there in the wild, many at much lower prices, yet delivering very good image quality." 
(Actually i wouldn't be surprised if Sony execs now are rolling on the floor laughing)


----------



## DaveGrice (Sep 5, 2018)

amorse said:


> ...I don't think this is intended to compete with the a7RIII...



Lord, I hope not. It's not even really competing with the A73, despite being $300 more. 



amorse said:


> ...I am betting on a higher resolution version which has more of the features expected in a 5D series camera...



My hope as well. The EOS R isn't by itself going to be enough to retain the customer base. I'm already going to have to buy a body, with the EOS R, and adapt all my current EF L glass. Since adapting is a given, there's nothing to say that other platforms wouldn't be a better long-term option. 

Holding for the next Canon announcement, but honestly my dollars will go to whomever offers the best solution when it's time, despite my fondness for Canon.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Focus by wire - with a "really right" implementation [lag-free, totally responsive, smooth stepless control, no "play" I am sure it is better than mechanical gears. Hope it is done well on the RF lenses.


I’m not convinced it’s better than a mechanical coupling, if nothing else because of the lack of tactile feedback. There’s a reason we’re seeing more haptics in touchscreens. Implementation is also key. For example, the MF implementation on some STM lenses (e.g. the M18-150) has a variable focus throw – if you turn the MF ring rapidly, the focus throw is much shorter than if you turn it slowly. That’s hard to become accustomed to, particularly without the tactile feedback (Basically, you don’t develop the muscle memory).


----------



## takesome1 (Sep 5, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> (Actually i wouldn't be surprised if Sony execs now are rolling on the floor laughing)



If they read your post it wouldn't surprise me either.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> (Actually i wouldn't be surprised if Sony execs now are rolling on the floor laughing)


Yeah, just like they laughed when Canon launched the EOS M.


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 5, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> (Actually i wouldn't be surprised if Sony execs now are rolling on the floor laughing)



Thanks for that. You actually had me rolling on the floor laughing. Pity I had a glass of wine in my hand at the time.


----------



## Respinder (Sep 5, 2018)

Act444 said:


> Might be like the “D” in 5D. The 5R, perhaps?





nchoh said:


> More likely R5... like M5.


I doubt it.. it is not like Canon released a DSLR called the "Canon D". Something tells me this is a bit different - had Canon called this a R5 or R10 or whatever then it would've made sense, but this is different for sure.
My guess is that they will use a different naming scheme than before, perhaps aligning to Sony, and calling a "pro" version an R-X and a "sport" version an R-S


----------



## Act444 (Sep 5, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> I think in respect of full frame mirrorless a Sony camera would fit much better as a versatile workhorse, allowing me to easily use and experiment with a huge range of lenses out there in the wild, many at much lower prices, yet delivering very good image quality.
> *(Actually i wouldn't be surprised if Sony execs now are rolling on the floor laughing)*



I think some underestimate the giant Canon marketing machine. They may not be laughing for very long...

Anyway, more competition is always a good thing. And it appears that each system brings its own unique set of strengths and weaknesses that appeal to different groups of photographers. Especially now with both Nikon and Canon users needing to invest in a new lens system regardless, for those ready to leap, there’s probably no better time than now to look over at what the other systems offer and evaluate the best fit for you as a shooter. Gonna be an interesting next few years.


----------



## unfocused (Sep 5, 2018)

This seems to be a very solid offering. It won't replace my 5DIV, but at about $1,000 less, I wouldn't expect it to. Looks like Canon made reasonable compromises to keep the price competitive without sacrificing anything really important to the majority of users. I didn't really think I'd be interested in a mirrorless camera, but this has me thinking that at some point in the future I might consider moving in that direction.


----------



## Act444 (Sep 5, 2018)

unfocused said:


> I didn't really think I'd be interested in a mirrorless camera, but this has me thinking that at some point in the future I might consider moving in that direction.



Agreed. But there are still major cons to MILC that will have me sticking with DSLR (at least as my primary camera) for the foreseeable future:

1) AF tracking ability
2) FPS
3) Battery life
4) Shutter lag, especially in low light

Fix these 4 items and I will consider moving on. Item number 4 in particular is bothersome to me and I’ve missed shots on numerous occasions with my M6/M10 because of it. Does the new R address this problem?


----------



## Bob Howland (Sep 5, 2018)

It's interesting that the EF-EOS M adapter, which is basically an extension tube, is $199 US,while the basic EF-EOS R adapter, which may contain electronics, is half that price. Of course the reason may be that EOS M cameras typically don't have the power to drive the larger EOS lenses so Canon wants to discourage the use of the M adapter.


----------



## Sean C (Sep 5, 2018)

I think many of us here want a 5D level body with the advantages of a mirrorless, and this isn't that camera so it's tough to talk about what's right and wrong about it.
I'm looking for better studio flash tricks.The slower sync speed and loss of the PC port are problems.
I don't see information indicating whether it'll support 2nd curtain sync with 3rd party triggers or if that's artificially restricted to canon branded speedlights.
I don't see mention of support for something like electronic 2nd curtain to boost effective sync speed, though that is the sort of thing a firmware update could add if Canon decided to allow it. The other options suggest the hardware could do it.
I think I'll need to sit on the fence for now.

For all the talk of Sony switching - the specific situations I'd like a better tool for don't demand fast focus at all. It's tempting to buy something that metabones can adapt my EF lenses too and use that body for only those situations without investing in any glass on the other system - so I can get the shots I'm after now without having to wait. (I'm interested in pics more than gear - but I need the gear that'll make it happen) I'd continue using the 5D for everything else. Then make a call about the future once I can see Canon's direction with the bodies. (I'd hate to switch from EF - lots of money in the lenses/speedlights and I'm not a pro - just an enthusiast who got carried away)

Anyone who has tried adapting to get a second body have any luck? I've got a friend out of town with an A7RII and my adapted lenses seemed fine over a couple day visit, but that was a limited test.


----------



## Larsskv (Sep 5, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> "This system is a marketing tool to enforce customer brand fidelity, not made with the photog in mind at-all. This system is a self-defense system for Canon. The new enhanced lens communication that facilitate the extra control ring on the lens is actually made to make you as a user more dependent on the canon line. Once you start getting used with this control system you will find harder to use other systems and psychologically a conditioning will occur to become a canon conservative. Next is the lack of IBIS and as i noticed no mention of focus peaking. Without these features you won't be able to easily use any full manual lenses either vintage or lenses like Samyang, Laowa, or Mayer Optics and Zeiss on the more expensive side. Even if you can use them your life will continue to be harder... so you will tend to keep using Canon lenses. With this approach, Canon probably also want to secure that they can justify the extra money they charge for the lenses, the extra control ring is an exclusive feature, also they can still justify and sell the IS in each lens since no IBIS. As a side-note is interesting to see if Canon will allow 3rd party lens manufacturers like SIgma or Tamron to implement the new control ring, also is questionable if that will be even profitable for Sigma and Tamron, since those lenses would be Canon only... I think in the long run this road is a bad one for Canon, since for creators on a lower budget like myself, or young creators who want to step up their game, Sony offers a solid system, where they can start with cheap good full manual lenses, possibility to adapt almost anything efficiently, offering also a growing collection of high-end lenses. I am really disappointed by Canon. I was really open to change my plans from buying a Sony. My first conclusion would be: stay away from Canon if you value gear versatility. Even if i own 6 Canon lenses and i plan also adding one of the more advanced film EOS camera to my kit, I think in respect of full frame mirrorless a Sony camera would fit much better as a versatile workhorse, allowing me to easily use and experiment with a huge range of lenses out there in the wild, many at much lower prices, yet delivering very good image quality."
> (Actually i wouldn't be surprised if Sony execs now are rolling on the floor laughing)



I agree on much of your points here, apart from the Sony-parts. Personally I would never invest in Sony. They made a big mistake when they chose their FF lens mount, which is too narrow. It will be a big problem for them, and I believe it will be their loosing factor. 

Personally, I find the Nikon Z release to be better than Canons. IBIS is a big deal, and their lenses are more reasonably put together with regards to size and weight. Nikon released a road map for planned lenses, which I also think was a smart move. 

As a Canon user, I don’t see much reason to invest in the RF line in addition to the EF line I am invested in. GAS for RF killed by lack of IBIS and small and lightweight lenses.


----------



## CanonGrunt (Sep 5, 2018)

AJ said:


> FWIW I think it should be possible to adapt FD lenses to R, something that was not really possible with EF.
> I'm surprised they didn't include an R-mount ultrawide in the announcement. Such a lens stands to benefit most from the new mount format.




You can put FD lenses on EF. I’ve done it. The adapters unfortunately have added glass that is sub par compared to the lens glass. I had one of my FD lenses sent off and converted to a hard EF mount recently. It works great for a film look. There are a few places that will convert them. I have an adapter for the EOS-M mount as well for some of my other FD glass, thankfully no added glass elements are needed in the FD - EOS M adapters. Hopefully they will make an adapter that doesn’t need added glass elements in it for the RF mount.


----------



## CanonGrunt (Sep 5, 2018)

Respinder said:


> I doubt it.. it is not like Canon released a DSLR called the "Canon D". Something tells me this is a bit different - had Canon called this a R5 or R10 or whatever then it would've made sense, but this is different for sure.
> My guess is that they will use a different naming scheme than before, perhaps aligning to Sony, and calling a "pro" version an R-X and a "sport" version an R-S




God I hope the Mark 2 of this thing is called R2-D2....


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## edmund22 (Sep 5, 2018)

After an intense week of rumours I'm still sitting here, waiting for a decent 7d3.


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## nchoh (Sep 5, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> "This system is a marketing tool to enforce customer brand fidelity, not made with the photog in mind at-all. This system is a self-defense system for Canon. The new enhanced lens communication that facilitate the extra control ring on the lens is actually made to make you as a user more dependent on the canon line. Once you start getting used with this control system you will find harder to use other systems and psychologically a conditioning will occur to become a canon conservative. Next is the lack of IBIS and as i noticed no mention of focus peaking. Without these features you won't be able to easily use any full manual lenses either vintage or lenses like Samyang, Laowa, or Mayer Optics and Zeiss on the more expensive side. Even if you can use them your life will continue to be harder... so you will tend to keep using Canon lenses. With this approach, Canon probably also want to secure that they can justify the extra money they charge for the lenses, the extra control ring is an exclusive feature, also they can still justify and sell the IS in each lens since no IBIS. As a side-note is interesting to see if Canon will allow 3rd party lens manufacturers like SIgma or Tamron to implement the new control ring, also is questionable if that will be even profitable for Sigma and Tamron, since those lenses would be Canon only... I think in the long run this road is a bad one for Canon, since for creators on a lower budget like myself, or young creators who want to step up their game, Sony offers a solid system, where they can start with cheap good full manual lenses, possibility to adapt almost anything efficiently, offering also a growing collection of high-end lenses. I am really disappointed by Canon. I was really open to change my plans from buying a Sony. My first conclusion would be: stay away from Canon if you value gear versatility. Even if i own 6 Canon lenses and i plan also adding one of the more advanced film EOS camera to my kit, I think in respect of full frame mirrorless a Sony camera would fit much better as a versatile workhorse, allowing me to easily use and experiment with a huge range of lenses out there in the wild, many at much lower prices, yet delivering very good image quality."
> (Actually i wouldn't be surprised if Sony execs now are rolling on the floor laughing)



Buy the control ring adaptor and you'll have the same user experience as the RF lenses. Done.


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## captainkanji (Sep 5, 2018)

No IBIS isn’t a deal breaker for me. Would like to have it though. I’m interested in how the EVF is used for manual focus. It looked very cool in the video. The drop in filter attachment really has me sold on the idea.


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## unfocused (Sep 5, 2018)

sebakunstpaul said:


> "This system is a marketing tool to enforce customer brand fidelity...The new enhanced lens communication that facilitate the extra control ring on the lens is actually made to make you as a user more dependent on the canon line. Once you start getting used with this control system you will find harder to use other systems and psychologically a conditioning will occur to become a canon conservative...



Oh my God! How diabolical of Canon to release a camera that has features that will make people want to buy their products. Grab the pitchforks and storm the castle, we can't have that!


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## Yasko (Sep 5, 2018)

If the adaptor works perfectly with native lenses I see no downside but only upsides... one filter for them all...
Fast native lenses for the future to come on top... why not.
Longer lenses would have had a built-in adaptor anyway... only small to mid focal length really do profit from a shorter flange.


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## Respinder (Sep 5, 2018)

The more I think about it the more I wonder how perfect this camera could have been without the crop in 4K video.
However, Magic Lantern is working on a solution to bring full-sensor readout to 5D Mark IV. If this is the case, then couldn't Canon potentially fix the crop issue via a future firmware update?


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## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

Respinder said:


> The more I think about it the more I wonder how perfect this camera could have been without the crop in 4K video.
> However, Magic Lantern is working on a solution to bring full-sensor readout to 5D Mark IV. If this is the case, then couldn't Canon potentially fix the crop issue via a future firmware update?


Yes if the processing bandwidth is available. Keep in mind that Canon’s top end cameras have multiple processors. This one has a single Digic 8. Add more processors and functions equals greater cost. Look for the next R (R2?) to have two processors, higher tracking frame rate, two memory cards , more video functionality and $3500. Price


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## 1Zach1 (Sep 5, 2018)

Lack of an intervalometer is trivial, but such a weird thing not to include.


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## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

The more I think of this camera the more I find it really interesting development from Canon. 

It seems to me that this is positioned to compete against the a7III and Z6, but the use of what seems to be the 5D IV sensor is really interesting. Without that sensor (and a few other features to be fair) this seems more akin to a mirrorless 6DII, or a slight re-positioning of the middle of the line offering. One of Canon's videos even suggested that this is a good first full frame camera for buyers, which I took to mean that there will likely be more advanced cameras coming. Now that the 5D sensor has been used in this model, what goes into the next model in this line? Will that be the sensor that goes into a 5DSII (if that were still coming)? Are we talking 50 MP or more? Are we talking a chunkier camera to accept a different battery which can better manage the new power consumption needs? I also noted that this camera gets less shots on EVF than it does on back LCD, so that EVF could have a serious battery demand to maintain a fluid and acceptable response time - I wonder if some of the processing power has been held back to reduce battery drain in order to make LP-E6 viable...

The fact that Canon's "entry level" full frame mirrorless model is positioned in a somewhat more advanced position than the "entry level" DSLR offering (which was released last year) seems to imply a bit of re-jigging of what Canon thinks each market segment will accept, especially considering that a camera like the 6D would not likely be updated again for 3 or more years. I can't help but wonder what led to the decision to give it the 5D IV sensor if they were still confident in the 6DII's sensor at that entry level market position (unless this isn't the entry level market position). Or maybe the manufacturing costs for that sensor have declined and it's more feasible to include now. Interesting to try and read between the lines, never the less.


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## RayValdez360 (Sep 5, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Oh my God! How diabolical of Canon to release a camera that has features that will make people want to buy their products. Grab the pitchforks and storm the castle, we can't have that!


 It's not a feature people want because no one even heard of them before. He is basically saying they want people to be so familiar and comfortable with Canon that they wouldnt want to switch no matter how better the competition is for your workflow. When people hand me a Sony or Nikon my reaction is to put them down they are annoying to use to me. Even though they have better sensors and I love image quality.


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## sebasan (Sep 5, 2018)

Sony's trolls are working full time...


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## PureClassA (Sep 5, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Of course there are many different types of pros, but I'd look at the 1Dx2 and see what features it has that are missing here. I guess more fps, more robust construction/sealing, bigger body, better high ISO (but maybe lower resolution), different card slot(s)?



I own a 1dx2, so that's why I'am curious. I do use it for video as well, but frustrated I can't send 4k out to an external recorder. No good explanation why they locked that out. I'm hoping it can/will be added with firmware updates especially now that this camera can. But yes, better weather sealing, more FPS, etc... but if they go with an even higher res sensor, does that mean will further sacrifice crop factor for video? Or do they start binning with a full sensor readout? Do we get the Cfast2 slot there like the 1d2x?


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## JBSF (Sep 5, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Oh my God! How diabolical of Canon to release a camera that has features that will make people want to buy their products. Grab the pitchforks and storm the castle, we can't have that!



I'm amazed at the number of trolls who crawled out from under their rocks in the past week and registered on CR Forum, only to sling stuff pulled out of an orifice.


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## BeenThere (Sep 5, 2018)

edmund22 said:


> After an intense week of rumours I'm still sitting here, waiting for a decent 7d3.


There is still a market for high frame rate cameras and IMO the Canon mirrorless cameras are not going there for at least 3 years. So expect a 7d3 within the next year. Just sayin


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## john kriegsmann (Sep 5, 2018)

Read all the stuff on the new Canon EOS R, looks like a well thought out system and something as a surprise because the kept the specs under wrap so far. I have a 5D4 and see absolutely no reason to sell that to move to the new EOS R. To begin with there is only a 4-5 ounce weight difference. This is true as well for the kit 24-105 f4 lens that I bought with my 5D4 camera. What is as impressive as it is puzzling is that Canon came out with more high quality native lenses for the brand new EOS R than they did for the EOS M system which is now about five years old and still struggle. Because I am looking for a light body and lenses for travel I might by and EOS M because they finally came out with a fast 50 mm equiv.


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## Alino (Sep 5, 2018)

Excuse if it has been reported previewsly. I didn't read all!

On the white paper documentation p.30 we can read about mount adapter EF-EOS R:

"Direct mechanical and electrical coupling between the EF lens and any the new EOS R camera and any future EOS R cameras"

So, I understand that the high end future body will not have an EF native mount !!!!!


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## Yasko (Sep 5, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So 24mm with the 4K crop factor is ~40mm, so just about fits in that range. But if one is just filming oneself talk, the camera can just be moved further away, right? I've never quite understood the angst about the crop thing, and there are ultrawide lenses that cover it anyhow, especially with EF-S compatibility.



You have more depth of field when using wider crop lenses. That‘s the only drawback I can think of ..., but a substantial one. Especially when you bought expensive fast glass and you own a camera with a very capable aAF system that could handle a shallow D.O.F.

A cheap (price-wise) 10-18 EF-S and the 100$ adaptor is a no brainer for vlogging in my eyes.


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

amorse said:


> The more I think of this camera the more I find it really interesting development from Canon.
> 
> It seems to me that this is positioned to compete against the a7III and Z6, but the use of what seems to be the 5D IV sensor is really interesting.


I'd say that "positioning to compete" against particular camera bodies was not why they developed this particular camera and not how they advertise it.

The camera is positioned to represent a system that is positioned to dominate (or so Canon wants). Like EOS 650 three decades ago.

They didn't develop a new sensor for it because it is not going to sell for 5 years as usual. It will likely be replaced by two cameras (one higher-level and one lower-level) with a new sensor in two years. They did not put a 6DII sensor into it because that sensor would be a poor representation of the new system.

It will still sell well, though.



Alino said:


> Excuse if it has been reported previewsly. I didn't read all!
> 
> On the white paper documentation p.30 we can read about mount adapter EF-EOS R:
> 
> ...


_If_ "the high end future body" is an EOS R camera.


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## Respinder (Sep 5, 2018)

Kit. said:


> I'd say that "positioning to compete" against particular camera bodies was not why they developed this particular camera and not how they advertise it.
> 
> The camera is positioned to represent a system that is positioned to dominate (or so Canon wants). Like EOS 650 three decades ago.
> 
> ...



It has to be. I mean we've got 4 mounts now (EF, EF-S, RF, M) - why would Canon risk creating a fifth mount? At this point its go all the way or bust, right? (if we assume mirrorless is the future, and I'm pretty sure it is..)

I would imagine the next higher spec-d body will be somewhere between a 1D and a 5D, and then eventually a mirrorless 1D.


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## ken (Sep 5, 2018)

I may be alone here, but I wish they'd gone for a new, higher capacity battery.


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## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

Kit. said:


> I'd say that "positioning to compete" against particular camera bodies was not why they developed this particular camera and not how they advertise it.
> 
> The camera is positioned to represent a system that is positioned to dominate (or so Canon wants). Like EOS 650 three decades ago.
> 
> ...


Oh, it will sell very well. I'm not in the market really, but even I would be tempted to pick one up as a backup to my 5D IV especially if it is putting out equivalent image quality for $1000 less than the 5D IV. I've nearly lost my 5D IV on more than one occasion where I would be unable to get a reasonable replacement in sufficient time (caught a tripod leg as the rest of it heads over a cliff 2x) and I don't currently own a second body (which is something I've often considered addressing).

I think lining this up as a competitor to the Z6 and a7iii is maybe not the right way to phrase it - Canon releases what they release and assume others compete with them, not the other way around. The question here is where does this body fit in Canon's full frame mirrorless lineup/continuum: with only 1 data point we don't know if this is the top/bottom/middle line body, or if Canon will even distinguish their lineup in that way. If we assume (which may be premature to do) that the RF mount camera market positioning will be analogous to Canon's FF DSLR series, is this intended to slot into the same space as a 6D in terms of price and value, or would this slot in to a 5D position or a new position all together. The point of interest here isn't to ridicule a past release (or Canon in general) but more so to predict what could be next. If this is supposed to be a do-it-all kind of well camera, could we be looking at a heavy set, high resolution and feature rich body coming next, or could we be looking at an ultralight body, or even a ruggedized spots monster next? Or is this our feature rich camera and the FF _light_ camera coming next?

I just can't help but wonder what Canon envisions for positioning of camera lines within the RF ecosystem, and where this sits in that continuum.


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## Alino (Sep 5, 2018)

Kit. said:


> I'd say that "positioning to compete" against particular camera bodies was not why they developed this particular camera and not how they advertise it.
> 
> The camera is positioned to represent a system that is positioned to dominate (or so Canon wants). Like EOS 650 three decades ago.
> 
> ...




Yes I know, but a lot of peoples still hope the next big R will be EF native, this is the end of their dreams


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## Lurker (Sep 5, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> I still have the feeling of being left behind with my 6D and my EF lenses exactly as I was in '87 with my AE1-P and my FD lenses.
> I understand the need for leap jumping but damn, I hate adaptors. An how about my planned investment in a 24-70 f/2.8 II L and the 135 f/2.0 L ? Will I do that now? Probably not. Or maybe by some used ones.
> My guess is, that with this launch Canon is going all in on EOS-R, and we will probably see a lot more new RF mount cameras. I will be surprised if we will ever see an 7D or a 6D mkIII. We will might see a new 5D and 1D, but that will be it. The rest will RF cameras an probably with IBIS too.
> The control-ring and the control bar (replacing the control wheel) looks smart. Very smart.
> ...



Well, if it's any comfort, I'm getting my 5D IV, 24-105, 100-400 and 600EX II tomorrow. I'll have the 400 DO and a set of fast wide angle and standard zooms by Christmas (either Tamron or Canon). Maybe I'll even convince myself to pickup the new 600. Then I'll go into GAS shock for a few years. 

This equipment will all work and take beautiful photos for the rest of my life. It will likely be more capable than I am.

I'll keep an eye on this new tech and maybe pick one up and get RF mount wide angle and standard zooms instead of the EF and a second EF body. We'll see.


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## N-VB (Sep 5, 2018)

European prices just appeared Eos R body + simple adaptor is at 2 519,99 € .... which is 2,930.19$ . Same price for the 50mm f1.2. 
The 28-70 f2 is not listed yet, but i'm out of tears anyway


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## amorse (Sep 5, 2018)

ken said:


> I may be alone here, but I wish they'd gone for a new, higher capacity battery.


I think it has to be an LP-E6 for the first one - it makes it a viable secondary camera for current EF users. If I was going to buy this as a second camera for a FF DSLR I would want both units to be as cross compatible as possible. That's certainly something this camera has that competing bodies do not if your primary camera is a Canon product.

Part of me thinks they are holding back on processing power for this camera to make LP-E6 feasible in order to ease the transition for current EF users. I am betting on a different battery for a more advanced model and much longer battery life, and for that to be positioned (and priced) as a primary camera and not a secondary camera. 

But I'm with you, I'd be really nervous with the battery life projected if that's all I had with me. I love the 5D IV touch screen, but I keep it off quite often to increase battery life.


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## sebakunstpaul (Sep 5, 2018)

nchoh said:


> Buy the control ring adaptor and you'll have the same user experience as the RF lenses. Done.


I need IBIS and Focus Peaking, because i also want to use vintage lenses and modern manual lenses, i shoot many times in low and very low light,
shooting mainly B&W, so everything around color performance is a bit secondary for me.
For my main projects i would be happy with a black and white sensor, but give me ISO performance, solid IBIS and focus peaking or anything that enable easy manual focus,
i would be happy even with the oldschool splitsreen viewfinder ... my first steps in photography were on a Yashica FR.
So sadly this camera, and as appears Canon strategy, doesn't cover my specific needs.


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## MickDK (Sep 5, 2018)

nchoh said:


> If you believe https://petapixel.com/2016/04/04/sonys-full-frame-pro-mirrorless-fatal-mistake/, Sony is currently facing challenges designing better lenses due to the small diameter and shorter flange distance.


Which challenges would that be? And "currently"? That article was written by a Canon fanboy and most (if not all) points have long since been debunked (did you read the link at the end of the article - https://petapixel.com/2016/04/05/defense-sonys-pro-mirrorless-cameras/)?

I don't understand this continuing bashing of brand X from supporters of brand Y. No brand gets better by insulting or spreading myths. There is no "perfect" camera. Just use the gear that suits you and enjoy it.


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## psolberg (Sep 5, 2018)

Alino said:


> Yes I know, but a lot of peoples still hope the next big R will be EF native, this is the end of their dreams


not impossible but if they wait too long it will become an increasingly difficult choice to make: every single one of those R lenses isn't going to mount on the EF bodies. Ok now, but and as the list of updates and "unique" lenses keeps getting longer, it puts people in a tough spot: buy into EF compatibility without adapter but waving good bye to ever mounting an update or unique R lens, OR just suck it up with the adapter like everybody else.


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> So there *is *eye-detect AF. And no crop in 4K.
> Good stuff, pity there's no IBIS, dual card and - slightly disappointing - no GPS. Still sounds like a better option against Z6, considering the lenses and AF.
> 
> But what's the price?



There is a 1.7x crop in 4k also I would wait for reviews of released cameras in the open before comparing the Canon vs sony vs Nikon, plus the lenses that are missing from Sony and Nikon can be developed + then released..


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## nchoh (Sep 5, 2018)

MickDK said:


> Which challenges would that be? And "currently"? That article was written by a Canon fanboy and most (if not all) points have long since been debunked (did you read the link at the end of the article - https://petapixel.com/2016/04/05/defense-sonys-pro-mirrorless-cameras/)?
> 
> I don't understand this continuing bashing of brand X from supporters of brand Y. No brand gets better by insulting or spreading myths. There is no "perfect" camera. Just use the gear that suits you and enjoy it.



1) Because IBIS was an afterthought, the throat diameter is tight for the additional space needed to accommodate the movement of the sensor.

2) Because of the greater incident angle that a small flange distance requires, wide angle lenses are difficult to design.

The article you linked did not debunk any of the above.

I mention Sony because many here have pointed that they are moving to Sony... just a precaution to jump in with your eyes open.


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## canonmike (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonGrunt said:


> God I hope the Mark 2 of this thing is called R2-D2....


Brilliantly funny comment.


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## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2018)

After all the rumors, the leaked specs, the official release, the videos, white papers, etc. all I can say is...

Meh.

I'm looking for a FF backup to my 5Ds. I held off to see what Canon's new FF MILC would be like. If it had checked certain boxes at $2,300 it would have been an easy preorder. Instead I have no interest. Worse, I find myself wondering if Canon really is screwing up like the shills have been screaming.

When it comes to video the EOS R is dead on arrival. Reading more about it the 4k crop is closer to 1.8x than 1.7x. At that point you might as well shoot a GH5 or BlackMagic PCC. It can't do 4k/60p, it can't do 1080/120p, and it can't do 4:2:2 internal. The ONLY video feature it has going for it is DPAF. That's it.

What about stills? It does deliver the 5D4 sensor at $2,300. That's a good sensor at a good price for someone who wants Canon glass and a USA warranty. But if my backup is for stills only I can gray market another 5Ds or 5Dsr, get considerably better IQ, and save a couple hundred. Or spend a bit more on a gray market 5D4 and get higher fps. What does the EOS R bring to the table? EVFs are inferior to OVFs. I don't need Eye AF. It doesn't have IBIS for adapted glass. What does it offer me on stills? Nothing really. Don't get me wrong, it will be a solid stills camera. So if it had solid video specs it would be an easy buy. But with crippled video there are simply better options.

Right now I'm in a situation where I might as well split my kit between stills and video. Do I get an A73 since I can adapt all my EF lenses and it can serve as yet another stills backup in a pinch? (Even though I hate Sony color science and ergonomics.) Do I get a Fuji XT3 and have a Canon FF stills kit and a lightweight Fuji crop stills/4k video kit? Will Panasonic win me over with their new FF camera? I don't know. But I do know there's a high probability I will be adding non-Canon equipment soon. *And that is entirely Canon's fault.*

There's no excuse what-so-ever for crippling the video features on the R. I don't want to hear "but the 5D4." You know what would happen if the R blew the 5D4 away on video? 5D4 owners would add the R and keep shooting both, just for different things. And Canon might feel some pressure to bring out a 5D5 sooner. That would be a good thing.

For the record: I love my 5Ds and my L glass. The 5Ds model is now three years old. Go ahead and show up with a brand new D850 or A7R III. Talk about DxO scores all you want. I'll make prints all day long that match or beat them on IQ, from the lowest to the highest ISO. The IQ off that 50mp sensor with Canon's best glass in front of it is jaw dropping. It beats 6x9 film, holds its own against MF digital (in the same resolution class), and can even hold its own against 4x5 except at really huge print sizes. It's phenomenal. Even at high ISO (contrary to many reviews).

And Canon's lens library? Awesome. Best in the business.

So why did they insist on blowing it when it came to their first FF mirrorless?


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## Respinder (Sep 5, 2018)

MickDK said:


> Which challenges would that be? And "currently"? That article was written by a Canon fanboy and most (if not all) points have long since been debunked (did you read the link at the end of the article - https://petapixel.com/2016/04/05/defense-sonys-pro-mirrorless-cameras/)?
> 
> I don't understand this continuing bashing of brand X from supporters of brand Y. No brand gets better by insulting or spreading myths. There is no "perfect" camera. Just use the gear that suits you and enjoy it.



Not sure exactly what is "fanboy"-ish about the article. Its science. Smaller diameter mount means it will be harder for Sony to make more advanced lenses for the E-mount when compared to Nikon and Canon. I agree that all three manufacterers have their advantages/disadvantages, and certainly Sony will do what they need to do to offset the limitations of the E-mount, just like Nikon has been doing for years to offset the limitations of the F-mount. But to say that this is a "myth" is like saying climate change isn't real. The mount diameter is designed for APS-C sensors - not full frame, and therefore, the E-mount will suffer long-term constraints, and many years in the future Sony may need to move on to another mount design.


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

Respinder said:


> It has to be.


It can be EF-mount. Then it won't be compatible with these lenses. Or it can be R. Then it will.



Alino said:


> Yes I know, but a lot of peoples still hope the next big R will be EF native, this is the end of their dreams


The next big (or small) R will have RF mount. The next big (or small) EOS may as well be EF-native, but then it won't be called R.



amorse said:


> The question here is where does this body fit in Canon's full frame mirrorless lineup/continuum: with only 1 data point we don't know if this is the top/bottom/middle line body, or if Canon will even distinguish their lineup in that way. If we assume (which may be premature to do) that the RF mount camera market positioning will be analogous to Canon's FF DSLR series, is this intended to slot into the same space as a 6D in terms of price and value, or would this slot in to a 5D position or a new position all together.


I think that it is positioned about as the original 5D - 5DII was, and it will be replaced by at least two distinct lines: 6D- and 5D+. At the moment is definitely not positioned as a part of the current 5D line, as 5D4 has faster AF tracking burst speed and a more comfortable grip and button layout, and 5DS [R] has better resolution. It is even possible that the next 5D5 will be a DSLR, while the 5D+ mirrorless will be a replacement for the 5DS.

We are also going to see a 1D-class R camera in the future, but it may take more than 2 years from here.


----------



## Respinder (Sep 5, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> After all the rumors, the leaked specs, the official release, the videos, white papers, etc. all I can say is...
> 
> Meh.
> 
> ...



Completely agree. This intentionally crippling approach by Canon needs to stop, and we have to stop being Canon apologists, otherwise Canon will simply continue this practice infinitely. As I've said before, I have never seen a consumer electronics company who intentionally gives customers "less is more" - i.e. the "subtractive" approach, by subtracting rather than adding. A Cinema EOS camera is absolutely in a different market than a DSLR/ILC, full stop. Canon needs to wake up and realize this. There is no reason why the crop needed to be included other than to subtract features to save another market. Just like there is no reason NOT to add C-log into the 1DX Mark II (yet THIS camera has C-log - can someone please explain that to me?)

I'm in the same boat as you - trying to figure out whether to divide and conquer with one video and one stills device. But my heart is still on having a single device that can do it all. I had high hopes that this release would have been the rebirth of the 5D Mark II - the last truly amazing hybrid device, and IMO the last time Canon applied more of an "additive" strategy (i.e. add more features, rather than subtracting, in order to differentiate the market lines)

I still want to wait it out, as I think Canon did get something substantial right with this camera - the UX. I think the UX is going to be unparalleled, and that coupled with the high-quality lenses will make the R system a worthy upgrade. We just need the right R body to upgrade too. Canon - you listening?


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> You know what would happen if the R blew the 5D4 away on video?


Yes, I know: it would have dual DIGICs and sell for $3500+.


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## Respinder (Sep 5, 2018)

Kit. said:


> It can be EF-mount. Then it won't be compatible with these lenses. Or it can be R. Then it will.
> 
> 
> The next big (or small) R will have RF mount. The next big (or small) EOS may as well be EF-native, but then it won't be called R.
> ...



I think the suggestion that Canon may revert back an EF is a dangerous path at best - it risks alienating anyone who buys into RF. This is one area where I think Nikon truly got it right, as they seem very invested in the Z-mount and have made it clear that the Z-mount represents their future.

I do believe there is still room for an EF-X - the hybrid EF / RF system that has been mentioned many times on these boards. Especially when I see the back end of each RF lens there appears to be a protruding silver-colored material that looks like it was designed for such a hybrid system.


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

Respinder said:


> I think the suggestion that Canon may revert back an EF is a dangerous path at best


Except that there is no "revert back". Canon is not rushing headlong into RF, it still develops new EF lenses.


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## MayaTlab (Sep 5, 2018)

Respinder said:


> There is no reason why the crop needed to be included other than to subtract features to save another market.



There is one : this is the best Canon can technically produce at a reasonable cost now. The crop is caused by the 5DIV's sensor (comparatively) slow readout speed : if the whole sensor was read, rolling shutter, which is already excessive, would be even worse.

From what I understand sensor production needs very long lead times between decision and actual execution, and significant investments that have to provide a return on investment in a few years only. This could explain why Canon has been lagging behind for a while : they may have given priority to investments that to them make more sense, even if it means trade-offs in certain production capabilities. These days Canon gives you DPAF, which no one else has. But they also can't give you fast readout speeds.

Given the R's use of the 5DIV sensor, and its launch price tag, I wouldn't expect much progress in that area for a while. This is where it's at, and probably for longer than what some people may like.


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## N-VB (Sep 5, 2018)

oh lol BG-E22 is only 490$ and 590€
Canon just set new records in prices for the R lineup


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## justawriter (Sep 5, 2018)

Haven't had time to muck about in all the threads and supporting links yet. Has anyone looked at high ISO performance yet? Don't give a hoot about most of the tech specs, but I would like to be able to shoot pictures of black cats in a coal mine at midnight at f/8.


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## Kit. (Sep 5, 2018)

justawriter said:


> Has anyone looked at high ISO performance yet?


You can be sure that it is the same as of 5D4.

Maybe slightly better denoising in in-camera JPEGs.


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## MayaTlab (Sep 5, 2018)

N-VB said:


> oh lol BG-E22 is only 490$ and 590€
> Canon just set new records in prices for the R lineup



I'm finding lower prices, such as 330 euros. Still ridiculous .


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## miketcool (Sep 5, 2018)

Respinder said:


> The more I think about it the more I wonder how perfect this camera could have been without the crop in 4K video.
> However, Magic Lantern is working on a solution to bring full-sensor readout to 5D Mark IV. If this is the case, then couldn't Canon potentially fix the crop issue via a future firmware update?



No, and thank God Canon won’t use the entire sensor.

I’m tired of reading about the crop factor. It’s a non-issue that has become an issue in the “spec wars”. 4K cinema sensors are only around 12 megapixels. The EOS R is a stills camera. If you want high resolution stills, you use a massive sensor that has an effective video resolution of 8K. With that much data, your camera would cook trying to process a video stream.

A few Sony A series cameras allow a full sensor readout where the processor either compresses info, or samples a few pixels instead of all of them. This leaves you with video that is noisy and not sharp. It’s not turned on by default and Sony sets a 1.5x crop factor for video. Even at 1.5x crop, Sony is oversampling to 5k and bringing you slightly lossy video to a 4K codec at a rate of 8-bits.

The EOS R is cropping to 1.7x and using the least oversampling, the most direct sensor data output, and the highest data rate. This means you get HIGHER QUALITY VIDEO in this format. Canon has a successful series of Cine cameras because image matters, not silly spec sheets argued on Internet forums.

Don’t believe me? Look up the noise you get on the “uncropped” Sony mirroless cameras. It’s a mess. Why do you think it’s easy for Panasonic to output higher frame rates on a 4/3rds sensor? It has less processing to do. We live with the crop because these cameras are used primarily for stills. If you want a camera without a rolling shutter, higher color output, and less artifacts; buy a cine camera with no crop and a much lower pixel resolution sensor.


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## Isaacheus (Sep 5, 2018)

CanonGrunt said:


> It's definitely for video people. It has all the features (except full frame 4k), and more that people kept complaining were not in the 5D IV at launch. The 5D4, and 1D Series are still the heavy hitting in the field photography Cameras. The better weather sealing on them and all that. More rugged. A lot more breakable parts on the R. It's definitely priced to compete in the video market. Specially against Panasonic, but Sony as well. The advantage for Canon is that a lot of video people that went over to Sony and the Panasonic GH5s were still using Canon glass on adaptors, and Canon knows that. They have a decent chance at luring many of them back in, especially with Canon Log, DPAF, Canon color, and all those other Canon specific goodies.



I think I fit into that category - using Sony and Canon gear, with mostly Canon/sigma lenses. I like using a hybrid setup where possible. 

The r is a good step but there are still a few things that aren't as strong as my current Sony for video, namely ff 4k, and 120 fps in 1080. The colour, clog and dpaf are all good factors, but I'm unlikely to put money into something to get a side step in performance overall


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> After all the rumors, the leaked specs, the official release, the videos, white papers, etc. all I can say is...
> 
> Meh.
> 
> ...


I disagree with the 'meh' comment generally, I think it's a good release and will be a popular camera. (Although admittedly, I have a video camera for video and have zero desire to record video on an ILC.) But I commented earlier that I might get an R – the 5DsR. As you point out, a gray market copy costs less than the EOS R, and it ticks more of my boxes.


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## Talys (Sep 6, 2018)

Respinder said:


> Completely agree. This intentionally crippling approach by Canon needs to stop, and we have to stop being Canon apologists, otherwise Canon will simply continue this practice infinitely. As I've said before, I have never seen a consumer electronics company who intentionally gives customers "less is more" - i.e. the "subtractive" approach, by subtracting rather than adding.



You need to buy a computer, smartphone, tablet, or computer upgrade part.

Examples: Intel and AMD processors start at the high end, and are progressively crippled to make cheaper products. Many of their low and mid-range products have nearly identical manufacturing costs to their super-expensive manufacturing products; at a minimum, they're cheaper re-designs of higher end architectures. If you like video games, nVidia cards are pretty much the same thing. Do you really think a 1080Ti Founder's Edition costs all that much more than a 1080 to make, or for that matter, a 1070? Do you think an iPhone or iPad with 256GB of storage costs way more to make than one with 64GB of storage? 

Instead of "crippling", think of it as this: if they didn't subtract features to make a more attractive price, the only product that would be available is a much more expensive one than you'd probably want to pay, and if you did cough up the cash, you'd be paying for a lot of stuff that you didn't use.

I for one, will always support a company that builds subsets of products at lower prices, over one that provides fewer options. Quite often, I will buy something that is NOT their top of the line, because the price difference from one notch down is huge, while the real benefit to me is marginal. But I'm just fine with the company making more money from someone who is willing to pay the big leap up.

Of course, if there isn't an option that I like, it's not like I have to buy something; I'll just move right along.


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## Talys (Sep 6, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> I think I fit into that category - using Sony and Canon gear, with mostly Canon/sigma lenses. I like using a hybrid setup where possible.
> 
> The r is a good step but there are still a few things that aren't as strong as my current Sony for video, namely ff 4k, and 120 fps in 1080. The colour, clog and dpaf are all good factors, but I'm unlikely to put money into something to get a side step in performance overall



My Sony friend is struggling with the same thing. He really just wants DPAF; he also has a bunch of Canon glass, though it's a little bit dated now. He's also wondering if switching becomes an overall side step and trading some problems for different shortcomings. I figure he's waiting for me to buy one, he'll borrow it, and then go from there


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## privatebydesign (Sep 6, 2018)

The devil is in the details and the more details I learn the more I like the system.
AF at f11 so 100-400 f5.6 retains AF at 800mm!
Lens corrections for TS-E lenses
Improved IS performance on EF lenses due to improved sensor feedback.


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## Act444 (Sep 6, 2018)

miketcool said:


> I’m tired of reading about the crop factor. It’s a non-issue that has become an issue in the “spec wars”. 4K cinema sensors are only around 12 megapixels. The EOS R is a stills camera. If you want high resolution stills, you use a massive sensor that has an effective video resolution of 8K. With that much data, your camera would cook trying to process a video stream.



Also, if I understand correctly - video shooters concerned about the crop can use an EF-S 10-18mm wide lens with the adapter and boom, problem solved. Because the image is ALREADY cropped, you'll still get the wide (16-35) view.


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## peters (Sep 6, 2018)

miketcool said:


> ... I’m tired of reading about the crop factor. It’s a non-issue that has become an issue in the “spec wars”. ...


No, this is simply NOT a non-issue. I am realy hyped by this new camera and I will certainly preorder it as an addition to my lineup (especialy for travel and for video work without breaking my arms off and hustling with a realy unhandy codec). But this is REALY a BIG disapointment for me. 
I use a 1dxII (and 5dIV) on a daily basis for photo an video work. The Crop of the 5dIV is realy a problem and makes the camera (paired with the totaly unaccaptable rolling shutter and the unhandy codec) REALY a bad choice for video. And don't tell me the crop is not a problem because Cinema Cameras have it too, as they accept different lenses. The 5D cant accept APS-C Lenses - so its pretty much impossible to get ANY decent wide angled shot in 4k. The 1dx manages this better with 1,3, but its still annoying. 

At least we can use EF-S Lenses on the EOS R, so this is not THAT bad. Lets hope they fixed the insane rolling shutter because this is realy incredible bad on the 5d. 

I am still pretty unsure which EF-S Lense (with autofocus) to get for the EOS R for wide angled shots (for imagefilms, real estate and such) in 4k. Many options are either: bad, only manual focusing, not fast or realy expensive... Anyway, this is an additional investment (I hoped I could just use my incredible beautiful Tamron 15-30 with the EF to RF adapter for this. Now I need a SECOND adapter for EF-S AND a nice wide-angle APS-C lens... an investment that could probably get close to a similar sony mirrorless.....) Also I have to calculate stupid stuff to pick a lense from the box, when I mix it with the 1dxII.... 

All in all: I need TWO adapters AND a new lense - simply because they decided to leave out a feature that could have produced very nice images.


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## peters (Sep 6, 2018)

Act444 said:


> Also, if I understand correctly - video shooters concerned about the crop can use an EF-S 10-18mm wide lens with the adapter and boom, problem solved. Because the image is ALREADY cropped, you'll still get the wide (16-35) view.


This is still not as wide as other lenses (THAT I ALREADY OWN) on full-frame. Also, now I need TWO adapters, thanks to canons great policy...

Also: the EF-S 10-18 is REEEEALY an ugly lense and nothing that should be attached to an 2000$+ camera. Every 16-something L is BY FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR better. It may be good for the price, but its literaly the CHEAPEST wide-angle you could possible buy from canon. Especialy the corner sharpness and color reproduction is just bad....


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## Isaacheus (Sep 6, 2018)

Talys said:


> My Sony friend is struggling with the same thing. He really just wants DPAF; he also has a bunch of Canon glass, though it's a little bit dated now. He's also wondering if switching becomes an overall side step and trading some problems for different shortcomings. I figure he's waiting for me to buy one, he'll borrow it, and then go from there



Yeah - I picked up an a7R3 as it was/is a good fit for my specific use case, but having one system only does appeal, and this particular camera isn't going to help that. The next model up might however, and Canon are filling in the gaps that had me move over in the first place (albiet slowly filling them in)

I don't think I'll ever get everything I want in one body, it's really just figuring out where the pro/con balance lies


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## Isaacheus (Sep 6, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> The devil is in the details and the more details I learn the more I like the system.
> AF at f11 so 100-400 f5.6 retains AF at 800mm!
> Lens corrections for TS-E lenses
> Improved IS performance on EF lenses due to improved sensor feedback.



Not all the details are great unfortunately though- it looks like all the ff mirrorless cameras are hiding fine print in their specs now, Canon, Nikon and Sony


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 6, 2018)

How updated is the sensor? are they finally to the modern age of a Sony sensor or is it still same old low DR Canon as always? Gotta finally be a truly modern sensor no???

At least the video has 10bit external (that is huge) although they still seem afraid to lead the pack. Why not jump ahead and 10bit internal? 60fps 4k?
Anyway, whatever. The real question will it be poorly processed mushy 4k as typical for Canon in the past or will it be ultra crisp and artifact free mega-oversampled 4k like from Sony?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 6, 2018)

Starting the new fast zoom at 28mm is a bit of a bummer, having 24mm is awfully nice. Maybe they will also come out with say an f/2.8 one that does 24mm-70mm? It does seem that the new mount distance does allow for some potentially superb performance at the edges or for ultra fast lenses.


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## Act444 (Sep 6, 2018)

peters said:


> ... Anyway, this is an additional investment (I hoped I could just use my incredible beautiful Tamron 15-30 with the EF to RF adapter for this. Now I need a SECOND adapter for EF-S AND a nice wide-angle APS-C lens...



I thought the EF-RF adapter also took EF-S lenses? So that's only one adapter. Although if you wanted the control ring thingy AND drop-in filters, that's a different story...


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 6, 2018)

@miketcool "
A few Sony A series cameras allow a full sensor readout where the processor either compresses info, or samples a few pixels instead of all of them. This leaves you with video that is noisy and not sharp. It’s not turned on by default and Sony sets a 1.5x crop factor for video. Even at 1.5x crop, Sony is oversampling to 5k and bringing you slightly lossy video to a 4K codec at a rate of 8-bits.

The EOS R is cropping to 1.7x and using the least oversampling, the most direct sensor data output, and the highest data rate. This means you get HIGHER QUALITY VIDEO in this format. Canon has a successful series of Cine cameras because image matters, not silly spec sheets argued on Internet forums. "

What? Over-sampled video the way Sony does it has been produced crisper video, by far, than the Canon method and with less artifacts and less noise. Oversampling improves quality compared to direct read out of the Canon sort. Plus Canon does some really messy things with the video processing that turn it to mush, so far every model. If you use Magic Lantern you see how much mush they and mess they are doing to the quality, it uses so much room though that ML RAW is a pain, but you do get around the so far hideous Canon video processing in their DSLRs and get >8bits which is really important too. Sony processing for video in the camera is vastly superior so far.


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## Durf (Sep 6, 2018)

peters said:


> This is still not as wide as other lenses (THAT I ALREADY OWN) on full-frame. Also, now I need TWO adapters, thanks to canons great policy...
> 
> Also: the EF-S 10-18 is REEEEALY an ugly lense and nothing that should be attached to an 2000$+ camera. Every 16-something L is BY FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR better. It may be good for the price, but its literaly the CHEAPEST wide-angle you could possible buy from canon. Especialy the corner sharpness and color reproduction is just bad....



For many the 10-18mm stm will be just fine on this R camera. Of course it's not a high end video production lens but for average joe videos and vlogging it's a great lens IMO. I've actually got some pretty decent landscape shots with this lens stopped down a bit and I think the color and sharpness is rather good. (not perfect).

My guess is that 95% or more of those that actually buy this camera will not be high end production video makers, pro photographers, or major pixel-peepers and this camera will be great for them. (even with a 10-18 stm lens)

My other guess is that this EOS R will be one of Canons biggest sellers, perhaps of 2018 and surely going in to 2019. Can't wait to see what their higher end version will be!

This is actually the first Crop or FF Mirrorless that has really caught my attention.....(but I'm 100% happy with my current gear)


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## peterzuehlke (Sep 6, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> ~11.7MP crop mode when an EF-S lens is attached.


And the 4K video has more of a crop factor than my Sony a6500 apsc. AND NO IBIS. I have been shooting 5D 4 and Sony mirrorless when silent shooting is needed and for video for awhile now. I was hoping to go back to all Canon, but it looks like going to have wait a little longer.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 6, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Not all the details are great unfortunately though- it looks like all the ff mirrorless cameras are hiding fine print in their specs now, Canon, Nikon and Sony


As a first shot it sounds more and more impressive to me, bear in mind Canon are saying this is a mid level camera, an equivalent 5D or 1DX is going to have 'more' yet even the benchmark is giving us really nice details.

Maybe I'm a cup full kind of guy but I am really looking forwards to seeing where this goes and will almost certainly sell a 1DX MkII to get a 'pro' version as it offers so many different features.


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## sdz (Sep 6, 2018)

Colorado said:


> That said the R is not an upgrade to the 5D4. It's clearly positioned in between the 6D and the 5D. Both with price and with features. An individual may or may not want it depending on their requirements and their current equipment.



That clicking noise we heard this morning was the ratchet locking Canon products into a new price/specs/performance relationship. The open questions now are: What will the specifications be for the general FF mirrorless camera, for its top shelf mirrorless camera, for its mirrorless crop camera and for its high MP mirrorless camera? Would could Canon provide for $2,000, $3,500 and $6,000? For the 7D market, for the 5D market and the 1D market? I expect the prices for each market to remain stable. What would Canon provide for those prices when it delivers cameras meant to fill those market segments?

My evidence-free conjecture: Sensor tech (a new design) will determine the quality of the products Canon will deliver for these markets. Canon might take its time on this one.


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## miketcool (Sep 6, 2018)

peters said:


> No, this is simply NOT a non-issue. I am realy hyped by this new camera and I will certainly preorder it as an addition to my lineup (especialy for travel and for video work without breaking my arms off and hustling with a realy unhandy codec). But this is REALY a BIG disapointment for me.
> I use a 1dxII (and 5dIV) on a daily basis for photo an video work. The Crop of the 5dIV is realy a problem and makes the camera (paired with the totaly unaccaptable rolling shutter and the unhandy codec) REALY a bad choice for video. And don't tell me the crop is not a problem because Cinema Cameras have it too, as they accept different lenses. The 5D cant accept APS-C Lenses - so its pretty much impossible to get ANY decent wide angled shot in 4k. The 1dx manages this better with 1,3, but its still annoying.



The Canon EOS C300 MKII has a sensor resolution 9.84 megapixels (4206 x2340) with no crop factor as the sensor is 4K for both stills and video.

The Canon EOS 1DXMKII has a sensor resolution 20.2 megapixels (5472 x 3648) with a crop factor of 1.3x with a theoretical resolution of over 5K.

The Canon EOS 5DMKIV has a sensor resolution 30.4 megapixels (6720 x 4480) with a crop factor of 1.7x with a theoretical resolution of almost 7K.

All of the sensors are the same physical 35mm size. The difference is in pixel density. The non-cine cameras are stills cameras first, video second. The compromise is that in order to record in 4K the camera can take two routes: sample pixels from across the entire sensor while not sampling all of them, or sample pixels from the center at a 4K size (this is why you have a crop factor). The HIGHER RESOLUTION option that the processor is limited to is cropped. To get a full read out would require a larger camera body, different thermals, fans, upgraded intervals, etc. This is why Cinema cameras are huge and why an 8K sensor on a Red requires extreme cooling capabilities (not to mention the noise made by all of this) and costs $60K.

Yes, Sony lets you shoot full frame on their A-series still cameras. The compromise is that camera effectively uses smaller pixels and must compress the image by downsampling over a larger sensor. This isn't a default option and the videos on YouTube (especially low-light) show why this is a poor option for shooting. Instead of risking quality and overheating ALL FULL FRAME DIGITAL STILLS CAMERAS CROP for 4K video by default.

Complaining that Canon is holding out on uncropped 4K video to protect their Cine cameras is nonsense. They're designed to handle completely different tasks. For me, the ability to shoot high resolution, stunning stills on a professional Canon DSLR or Canon MILC, while having 4K filming abilities is a huge bonus. The crop has to do with getting a quality video from a very dense sensor. Use an EF 14mm F/2.8 for an effective 18mm distance on the 1DXMKII or 24mm distance on the 5DMKIV / R.

If you really want a small 4K video camera over a stills camera, get a micro 4/3rds sensor. Panasonic and Black Magic Design make a couple of award winning bodies that work with a range of small and inexpensive lenses that will give you the video goodies. Sure, they take subpar stills, but at least they shoot without that pesky crop factor that spec warriors argue over on high resolution Full Frame digital still cameras.


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## amorse (Sep 6, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> The devil is in the details and the more details I learn the more I like the system.
> AF at f11 so 100-400 f5.6 retains AF at 800mm!
> Lens corrections for TS-E lenses
> Improved IS performance on EF lenses due to improved sensor feedback.



I saw that also - I was wondering about the potential for an 800mm zoom with functional AF after seeing the EV-6 focusing! That's a pretty interesting proposition, despite the loss in IQ that would likely come with a 2x tele.

There are certainly things to like about it. I could see me using it as a secondary camera to my 5D IV or even as a travel camera if some smaller glass became available. It isn't a huge size savings, but I would certainly notice the difference.
Compared to a 5D IV

2 things I'm still really curious about or this camera:

AF for fast moving subjects - to be fair I don't shoot it often, but when I do I expect to have success
How's the weather sealing, and especially with EF glass on adapters - they've used some different language for weather sealing here, and I couldn't see rubber around the adapters so I wonder how it will hold up.


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## dtaylor (Sep 6, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> I disagree with the 'meh' comment generally, I think it's a good release and will be a popular camera. (Although admittedly, I have a video camera for video and have zero desire to record video on an ILC.) But I commented earlier that I might get an R – the 5DsR. As you point out, a gray market copy costs less than the EOS R, and it ticks more of my boxes.



The IQ is incredible. I have no complaints with my Canon setup as a stills system. You would have to go MF to do better.


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## psolberg (Sep 6, 2018)

Act444 said:


> Also, if I understand correctly - video shooters concerned about the crop can use an EF-S 10-18mm wide lens with the adapter and boom, problem solved. Because the image is ALREADY cropped, you'll still get the wide (16-35) view.


no. not the same. if it was the same, nobody would bother wanting full sensor width video and it wouldn't be present in Sony/Nikon/etc cameras.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 6, 2018)

Colorado said:


> I also would like to be able to buy a camera with the 5D4 sensor for $1600. Additionally, I'd like be able to buy a mirrorless camera with the 5DS sensor for the same price.



Sony A7III can be had for $1800 with edu discount and better sensor than 5D IV yet I do not want it. If you want Canon strengths, you have to compare it with Canon eco system - 5D IV, 6DII, etc.


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## Etienne (Sep 6, 2018)

psolberg said:


> the way the sony models and the Z6 do it is they do a full 6K readout without line skipping then downscale it to 4K. There is no such thing as "full sensor" readout in video for those particular cameras as the format for 4k is 16:9. What people mean is full sensor width.


Obviously full sensor readout means reading every pixel and then converting to 4K, or 1080p as required (as virtually everyone in video will understand this), which is what Sony now does. Also obviously, 4K is cropped, almost no one uses 4:3 in video.


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## dtaylor (Sep 6, 2018)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> @miketcoolWhat? Over-sampled video the way Sony does it has been produced crisper video, by far, than the Canon method and with less artifacts and less noise. Oversampling improves quality compared to direct read out of the Canon sort.



I'm watching an A7 III review right now and seeing proof that oversampling yields a superior 4k image. Super 35 4k has superior rolling shutter and very good IQ (it's also oversampled), but from this review it appears FF 4k has the best overall IQ on this camera. The gap grows as the ISO goes up.

A Metabones adapter puts the price a bit higher than the EOS R. But an EF-S wide angle puts the R behind again.

Why Canon couldn't you have just given us better video?


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## miketcool (Sep 6, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> Why Canon couldn't you have just given us better video?



Canon did and it ships next month. The EOS R shoots 4K at 10-bit 4.2.2 vs the Sony A7III oversampled 4K at 8-bit. I’ll take the extra dynamic ranger and color data for a midrange digital stills camera.


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## Perio (Sep 6, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> I disagree with the 'meh' comment generally, I think it's a good release and will be a popular camera. (Although admittedly, I have a video camera for video and have zero desire to record video on an ILC.) But I commented earlier that I might get an R – the 5DsR. As you point out, a gray market copy costs less than the EOS R, and it ticks more of my boxes.



Neuro, are you planning to replace your 1DX with 5dsR or you're adding it as a second body?


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## snappy604 (Sep 6, 2018)

so far... feels like another luke-warm release. Certainly won't be lining up to pre-order. But will keep eye open on actual real world experience / reviews... never know. Again it feels like you gained some, lost some, but don't really feel ahead somehow.


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## PGSanta (Sep 6, 2018)

As a photography enthusiast, I hate what Canon is doing; I want to decide between the RF system and the Z system relatively soonish. 

As a businessman, I think Canon is playing this perfectly. 

Canon is the dominant actor, and this release (so close to Nikon’s move) suggests they have multiple options ready to launch. The lenses released with this body suggest as much. 

I suspect we’ll see another higher end body in February/March.


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## razorzec (Sep 6, 2018)

PGSanta said:


> I suspect we’ll see another higher end body in February/March.



I think it's logical to expect Canon to roll out an EOS R with 50mp filterless sensor and a Fast action version functionally similar to 1Dx II before the Tokyo 2020 kicks in.

I hope they also roll out a mirrorless successor to 7D II.


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## bcphoto (Sep 6, 2018)

No thanks. Without a built-in tripod, drone rotors and 4 card slots this camera is DOA.


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## takesome1 (Sep 6, 2018)

razorzec said:


> I think it's logical to expect Canon to roll out an EOS R with 50mp filterless sensor and a Fast action version functionally similar to 1Dx II before the Tokyo 2020 kicks in.
> 
> I hope they also roll out a mirrorless successor to 7D II.



50mp is very doable.
1Dx II similarity may be abit agessive. The AF will be the main limitation.


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## CanonGrunt (Sep 6, 2018)

amorse said:


> The more I think of this camera the more I find it really interesting development from Canon.
> 
> It seems to me that this is positioned to compete against the a7III and Z6, but the use of what seems to be the 5D IV sensor is really interesting. Without that sensor (and a few other features to be fair) this seems more akin to a mirrorless 6DII, or a slight re-positioning of the middle of the line offering. One of Canon's videos even suggested that this is a good first full frame camera for buyers, which I took to mean that there will likely be more advanced cameras coming. Now that the 5D sensor has been used in this model, what goes into the next model in this line? Will that be the sensor that goes into a 5DSII (if that were still coming)? Are we talking 50 MP or more? Are we talking a chunkier camera to accept a different battery which can better manage the new power consumption needs? I also noted that this camera gets less shots on EVF than it does on back LCD, so that EVF could have a serious battery demand to maintain a fluid and acceptable response time - I wonder if some of the processing power has been held back to reduce battery drain in order to make LP-E6 viable...
> 
> The fact that Canon's "entry level" full frame mirrorless model is positioned in a somewhat more advanced position than the "entry level" DSLR offering (which was released last year) seems to imply a bit of re-jigging of what Canon thinks each market segment will accept, especially considering that a camera like the 6D would not likely be updated again for 3 or more years. I can't help but wonder what led to the decision to give it the 5D IV sensor if they were still confident in the 6DII's sensor at that entry level market position (unless this isn't the entry level market position). Or maybe the manufacturing costs for that sensor have declined and it's more feasible to include now. Interesting to try and read between the lines, never the less.



Honestly, they probably had a bunch of 5D4 sensors lying around. They definitely didn’t sell as many of those cameras as they intended to. The assembly line was already geared for it. Why not put it in? They will have gotten the cost down already, and Canon loves to double dip on it’s tech. And in case it flopped they wouldn’t be out that much, but that is a lovely sensor and definitely gives it a little punch out the gate with that price point.


----------



## CanonGrunt (Sep 6, 2018)

bcphoto said:


> No thanks. Without a built-in tripod, drone rotors and 4 card slots this camera is DOA.




Or a transformer grip that turns into a gimbal. God, what were they thinking over there?


----------



## Colorado (Sep 6, 2018)

bokehmon22 said:


> Sony A7III can be had for $1800 with edu discount and better sensor than 5D IV yet I do not want it. If you want Canon strengths, you have to compare it with Canon eco system - 5D IV, 6DII, etc.


Err, in case the winking smiley didn't make it clear, I was trying to point out that expecting Canon to sell a camera with a sensor from a $3100 camera in a $1600 camera is not realistic. Prices on sensors come down but not that much that quickly.


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## Respinder (Sep 6, 2018)

Talys said:


> You need to buy a computer, smartphone, tablet, or computer upgrade part.
> 
> Examples: Intel and AMD processors start at the high end, and are progressively crippled to make cheaper products. Many of their low and mid-range products have nearly identical manufacturing costs to their super-expensive manufacturing products; at a minimum, they're cheaper re-designs of higher end architectures. If you like video games, nVidia cards are pretty much the same thing. Do you really think a 1080Ti Founder's Edition costs all that much more than a 1080 to make, or for that matter, a 1070? Do you think an iPhone or iPad with 256GB of storage costs way more to make than one with 64GB of storage?
> 
> ...



When I was thinking about the "additive" vs "subtractive" approach, I specifically thought about cell phones, or more specifically, the iPhone. Whenever Apple introduces a new iPhone, they don't attempt to restrict a key feature from the phone - rather they go all out and try to cram as much as they can into each successive iteration of the phone. Same goes with Apple Watch and any other Apple product for that matter.

Same is true with Nikon and Sony. Sony for sure is using an additive approach, cramming as much tech as they can into their cameras - mostly due to the fact that they were the underdog and had to prove themselves, but even now they continue to put as many features as they can. With Nikon I think its the same thing to be honest - with the D800 they arguably took a huge risk putting a huge MP sensor into a camera like that while putting a lower MP sensor into their flagship D4. But they still went ahead with it and were able to successfully separate the two lines. While the Nikon Z certainly is missing features, I feel it is more due to Nikon's lack of R&D money vs Sony and Canon and them having to focus on specific features versus others.

With Canon, I just feel that there are outright obvious examples where features have been subtracted for no reason. Not having C-log in the 1DX Mark II is the perfect example. How do you justify putting C-log into the 5D Mark IV and now the EOS R - both which have crop and rolling shutter, but you don't put it in the 1DX Mark II which has less crop and less of a rolling shutter problem? Just makes no sense to me.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 6, 2018)

Perio said:


> Neuro, are you planning to replace your 1DX with 5dsR or you're adding it as a second body?


It would be a second body mainly for travel.


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## Colorado (Sep 6, 2018)

Respinder said:


> When I was thinking about the "additive" vs "subtractive" approach, I specifically thought about cell phones, or more specifically, the iPhone. Whenever Apple introduces a new iPhone, they don't attempt to restrict a key feature from the phone - rather they go all out and try to cram as much as they can into each successive iteration of the phone.


I'm not arguing your point about Canon but I don't think Apple is a good counter example.

Apple is a closed ecosystem, even more so than Canon. There are many features not in a iPhone that are in competitors--for example a head phone jack and removable SD card. They don't include those features because they don't think that they are needed. They have an idea on what the Apple experience is and they don't care if Samsung or another competitor offers features they don't agree are necessary. They are "Apple" and they know what their customers want and need. Canon is much the same way. They don't think IBIS is necessary. The internet commenters think that's BS. They don't really care so long as they get the market share their are hoping for. Since Canon usually dominates any market it enters, expecting them to change is likely wishful thinking.


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## razorzec (Sep 6, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> 50mp is very doable.
> 1Dx II similarity may be abit agessive. The AF will be the main limitation.



I think the AF system found in EOS R is already capable of high speed high precision burst, it's the sensor readout that needs to be improved first. 

Canon can slap a couple of Digic 8 sensors on a 1D format mirrorless body and use CFExpress to do the throughput.


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## miketcool (Sep 6, 2018)

razorzec said:


> I think the AF system found in EOS R is already capable of high speed high precision burst, it's the sensor readout that needs to be improved first.
> 
> Canon can slap a couple of Digic 8 sensors on a 1D format mirrorless body and use CFExpress to do the throughput.



Power usage is the other consideration.


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## dtaylor (Sep 6, 2018)

miketcool said:


> Canon did and it ships next month. The EOS R shoots 4K at 10-bit 4.2.2 vs the Sony A7III oversampled 4K at 8-bit. I’ll take the extra dynamic ranger and color data for a midrange digital stills camera.



You're using "oversampled" as a negative. It very clearly and visibly was a positive in the videos I looked at on YouTube. Which is contrary to what you claimed earlier. The A7 III footage was sharp and detailed.

FF 4k is also positive in terms of DoF (obvious) and a huge positive for high ISO video. Now throw in 1080p/120.

There are things to like in the EOS R. Heck, despite higher specs in the Nikon Z7 I think the R is fundamentally the better body. Nikon blew it on some key points. But the R's video specs simply fall short.


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## Talys (Sep 6, 2018)

miketcool said:


> The HIGHER RESOLUTION option that the processor is limited to is cropped. .



This!

One advantage of a crop factor is that if the stuff you want to video is small, like a bird, it behaves like, well, a crop camera  I mean, who says you always want to shoot wide?

But anyways, I'm talking out of my rear, because I've shot probably less than 60 minutes of video on a DSLR since it was possible, and have no desire to with a mirrorless. I do own thousand-dollar-ish camcorder that we use for family video type stuff, which my wife far prefers it for casual videos than camera format device. But these days, most casual videos we just take from smartphones anyways.


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## razorzec (Sep 6, 2018)

miketcool said:


> Power usage is the other consideration.



on a 1D sized body, Canon can use the large E19 battery. it should give that potential sports Mirrorless camera some good mileage.


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## Talys (Sep 6, 2018)

Durf said:


> For many the 10-18mm stm will be just fine on this R camera. Of course it's not a high end video production lens but for average joe videos and vlogging it's a great lens IMO. I've actually got some pretty decent landscape shots with this lens stopped down a bit and I think the color and sharpness is rather good. (not perfect).
> 
> My guess is that 95% or more of those that actually buy this camera will not be high end production video makers, pro photographers, or major pixel-peepers and this camera will be great for them. (even with a 10-18 stm lens)
> 
> ...


I think the EFS 10-18 is a fantastic lens for the .price and it's super light. It's a fraction of the price of the 16-35, and takes beautiful photos. It's one of my favorite EFS lenses for 80D.

I think the EOS R will be a great seller for Canon, simply because it's different. There are a lot of Canon enthusaiasts who would like to spend some money on something that isn't just another iteration of their xxD and xD collection with a bunch of spec bumps. I mean, even though I had my issues with the Sony A7R3, I certainly had a lot of fun playing with it, and mostly because it was so different.


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## syyeung1 (Sep 6, 2018)

Canon Hong Kong has released price for the body. Same Recommended Retail Price as the a7iii. Pre-order will come with free adapter (the most basic one).


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## Alino (Sep 6, 2018)

syyeung1 said:


> Canon Hong Kong has released price for the body. Same Recommended Retail Price as the a7iii. Pre-order will come with free adapter (the most basic one).



The adapter is included in the box


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## koenkooi (Sep 6, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> You're using "oversampled" as a negative. It very clearly and visibly was a positive in the videos I looked at on YouTube. Which is contrary to what you claimed earlier. The A7 III footage was sharp and detailed.
> [..]



For me 'oversampling' means sampling more than you will use in the output, but I've seen it being used to describe pixel binning and lineskipping as well. In the case of using the full sensor readout and scaling it down to 4k the algorithm used also matters. Nearest-neighbour isn't that much better than pixel binning and lineskipping. Have a look at wikipedia: Comparison gallery of image scaling algorithms

If Canon would give us full sensor readout with something akin to bicubic downscaling *and* not turn it into mush with a poor video codec a lot of people would be very happy.


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## bbb34 (Sep 6, 2018)

Oversampling means that the input rate (or resolution) is higher than the output rate (or resolution). Oversampling does not imply any method for that rate reduction. Dropping values (line skipping) does not qualify, as it reduces the input rate.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 6, 2018)

koenkooi said:


> Crop, from http://learn.usa.canon.com/resource...eos-r/eos-r-video-operation-and-control.shtml
> 
> View attachment 180174


Yes, for videographers wanting the latest 4K technology, the EOS R is underwhelming. Canon tries to sell the crop factor as an advantage for wildlife photography, but everybody knows that they simply try to protect their Cinema EOS pro series. So, I think, Sony is still where to go for those wanting the best video in a compact body. 

For me personally, this is no real drawback, since I prefer to shoot stills and do video only occasionally. For stills I am sure that the EOS R is a solid offering - not really for action such as sports or wildlife. But I decided now to wait if the prices for the EOS R camera may drop a bit. It's the new RF lenses that attract me, the fast 50 and the mouth watering 2/28-70.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 6, 2018)

fullstop said:


> The White paper contains a lot of good information. Especially on the RF lenses ... comparing them to EF lenses ... in surprisingly clear language. Not seen such clean cut "direct comparison to other Canon products" before in a Canon White paper. Recommended read.
> https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/misc-pages/eos-r/pdf/canon_eos_r_white_paper.pdf
> 
> @neuroanatomist you may want to have a look at p. 22ff ... the new "Thin-type" Nano USM AF drive implemented in the RF 24-105 and optical performance compared to EF 24-105/4 L IS II and EF 24-105/3.5-6.3



Thank you, fullstop, this is really interesting to read.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 6, 2018)

Another question for those wanting some of the new RF lenses in combo with a Sony A series camera for better video will be: are 2 mm flange distance difference enough for a working adapter? Simple mechanical solutions such as the Leica M mount to M39 adapters are no problem but for an adapter providing full electronic lens-camera communication that could be a challenge. Interesting to see if Metabones & Co will be able to come with a satisfying solution...


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## Kit. (Sep 6, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> Another question for those wanting some of the new RF lenses in combo with a Sony A series camera for better video will be: are 2 mm flange distance difference enough for a working adapter?


Not with a mount as narrow as Sony's.

Even if the flange distance difference were enough to accept bayonet tabs and electrical contacts (which it isn't), the mount throat by itself could cause vignetting with RF lenses.


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## scyrene (Sep 6, 2018)

Talys said:


> One advantage of a crop factor is that if the stuff you want to video is small, like a bird, it behaves like, well, a crop camera  I mean, who says you always want to shoot wide?



+1

I don't do video really, but if I did, it'd be mostly birds, and the crop factor works in our favour here. Given there are ways around it for the wide stuff (I know it's not ideal, but there are FF lenses going to what? 8mm? And in this case with EF-S lenses wider options aren't *too* expensive), I find the wailing and gnashing of teeth a bit much - but I accept I'm in a minority here.


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## padam (Sep 6, 2018)

Talys said:


> This!
> 
> One advantage of a crop factor is that if the stuff you want to video is small, like a bird, it behaves like, well, a crop camera  I mean, who says you always want to shoot wide?
> 
> But anyways, I'm talking out of my rear, because I've shot probably less than 60 minutes of video on a DSLR since it was possible, and have no desire to with a mirrorless. I do own thousand-dollar-ish camcorder that we use for family video type stuff, which my wife far prefers it for casual videos than camera format device. But these days, most casual videos we just take from smartphones anyways.



Let's not start glorifying this feature (why not buy an M50 then, it has an even _better _crop factor). One the one hand, almost all the Cinema line uses a sensor size not too far away from that, and now it (finally) accepts EF-S lenses, so not being able to shoot wide is less of a problem than with a 5D IV. So it is a workable limitation. Changing the Cinema 4k 1.74x to UHD 1.8x is just Canon screwing with customers, because in other aspects, this camera is so much better featured.

But just because you have crop mode, it does still lack the availability to use senses with the same field of view for stills and 4k video and FOV difference between them is really big. That's actually very annoying.

With the Sony you have perfectly usable FF AND APS-C modes(now with a touch of a button), not the mention the Clear Image Zoom, which is implemented really well - yes, in the right mode, it does make zooming with a prime possible with no quality loss at all. Of course they have many other flaws, but in this regard, they are simply better featured.

The rolling shutter not really being improved is probably an even bigger disappointment.
But even with all this crippling, it is actually a great camera for video, where whatever works that's been 'kept', it does so really well...

It's like a deserted tropical island, with a slowly growing number of more beautiful trees. But others are building forests.
Canon has one too, but it is located in a place called the "C" but they do also have a lot of EF wood populators under their disposal which can sometimes serve to the competition as well.


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## RayValdez360 (Sep 6, 2018)

Colorado said:


> I'm not arguing your point about Canon but I don't think Apple is a good counter example.
> 
> Apple is a closed ecosystem, even more so than Canon. There are many features not in a iPhone that are in competitors--for example a head phone jack and removable SD card. They don't include those features because they don't think that they are needed. They have an idea on what the Apple experience is and they don't care if Samsung or another competitor offers features they don't agree are necessary. They are "Apple" and they know what their customers want and need. Canon is much the same way. They don't think IBIS is necessary. The internet commenters think that's BS. They don't really care so long as they get the market share their are hoping for. Since Canon usually dominates any market it enters, expecting them to change is likely wishful thinking.


 Apple doesn't what the people need. Everyone individual is different. Companies like that do a low level brainwashing. They make you think what you need and dont need with flowery speeches and cool advertising. Then when they add something the competition had for years, the loyal users get amnesia of how they bashed that item or feature. I am an android and windows user for that reason. Cameras are more of a tactile tool so I stick with Canon. But we don't tell a company to tell us how to think especially when the "inferior" competition shows that the number one brand is capable of so much more plus the fact that they have so much money to do so(Canon mainly for the latter.) At the end of the day some brands are more concerned about profit and not giving us the best but most reasonable offering possible and it wont change as long as people defend business for being business.


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## Canon-Chas (Sep 6, 2018)

All I want is a* silent shutter* for wildlife photography , I hope the Pro version fulfils my needs. Sony A9 does 20 fps RAW in silent mode , but *8+* would do me.
Any ideas when the Pro version specs will be announced ?
Thanks


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## BeenThere (Sep 6, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> After all the rumors, the leaked specs, the official release, the videos, white papers, etc. all I can say is...
> 
> Meh.
> 
> ...


Canon has released an entry level mirrorless camera and and in your opinion have blown it. Do the entry level mirror slappers satisfy you? Consider waiting for a higher end model, or move on to your dream brand camera. This is the current state of things and no amout of tears or gnashing of teeth is going to change anything.


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## padam (Sep 6, 2018)

Canon-Chas said:


> All I want is a* silent shutter* for wildlife photography , I hope the Pro version fulfils my needs. Sony A9 does 20 fps RAW in silent mode , but *8+* would do me.
> Any ideas when the Pro version specs will be announced ?
> Thanks


What you need for that is a rolling shutter with a really fast readout. When you are photographing action more fps is not enough if you have a ton of rolling shutter in your images. It is for animals standing reasonably still where there might not be a huge need to that many fps so after they come up with the promised EOS R firmware update to enable silent continuous mode not sure how many fps, but it will be usable up to a point withing its limitations (again, not for action).

Currently they have the 1DXII sensor which could be updated to this, but it is not going to be hugely better than the EOS R there is still going to be rolling shutter, just less of it and if we (very vaguely) suppose the readout to be 1.5x faster because of less megapixels, so silent continous fps can be increased a bit, but not a lot.

There will be stacked sensors later on of course, but not now, this (or generally wow-ing customers with anything groundbreaking) does not seem to be a priority at this moment.

In short, if this is the one and only feature that you need, you may need an A9 because everything in it was designed with this one feature in mind.
Not only it has the stacked sensor, but the readout method uses four lines in one go, so the shutter runs at 1/160 speed which is not far off from the mechanical shutter, and coupled with the help of internal processing called "Anti-Distortion Shutter" makes it work with minor limitations for almost every situation as the AF was also designed to work together with all of this.


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## fullstop (Sep 6, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> Another question for those wanting some of the new RF lenses in combo with a Sony A series camera for better video will be: are 2 mm flange distance difference enough for a working adapter? Simple mechanical solutions such as the Leica M mount to M39 adapters are no problem but for an adapter providing full electronic lens-camera communication that could be a challenge. Interesting to see if Metabones & Co will be able to come with a satisfying solution...



In all likelihood not possible. RF are for 54mm throat width, Sony E-mount is too narrow, especially with only 2mm FFD difference.


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## MayaTlab (Sep 6, 2018)

Canon-Chas said:


> Any ideas when the Pro version specs will be announced ?
> Thanks



No idea but my little finger tells me that people hoping for an A9 competitor for the 2019 Photokina will be sorely disappointed. For that to happen Canon would need to introduce in one go, in a FF sensor, a bucketload of tech that took Sony several years of gradual improvements, most frequently starting with smaller sensors, to introduce. Highly doubtful in that time frame.


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## BeenThere (Sep 6, 2018)

razorzec said:


> I think it's logical to expect Canon to roll out an EOS R with 50mp filterless sensor and a Fast action version functionally similar to 1Dx II before the Tokyo 2020 kicks in.
> 
> I hope they also roll out a mirrorless successor to 7D II.


I think you are optimistic on the release timeframes, but yes, those models are coming.


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## BeenThere (Sep 6, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> You're using "oversampled" as a negative. It very clearly and visibly was a positive in the videos I looked at on YouTube. Which is contrary to what you claimed earlier. The A7 III footage was sharp and detailed.
> 
> FF 4k is also positive in terms of DoF (obvious) and a huge positive for high ISO video. Now throw in 1080p/120.
> 
> There are things to like in the EOS R. Heck, despite higher specs in the Nikon Z7 I think the R is fundamentally the better body. Nikon blew it on some key points. But the R's video specs simply fall short.


Video will always be a secondary and suboptimal function on a primarily stills camera. Stills will always be suboptimal on a primarily video camera. If you need pro quality output for both, then get both types of cameras. A Swiss Army knife is going to have some compromises.


----------



## Durf (Sep 6, 2018)

Talys said:


> I think the EFS 10-18 is a fantastic lens for the .price and it's super light. It's a fraction of the price of the 16-35, and takes beautiful photos. It's one of my favorite EFS lenses for 80D.
> 
> I think the EOS R will be a great seller for Canon, simply because it's different. There are a lot of Canon enthusaiasts who would like to spend some money on something that isn't just another iteration of their xxD and xD collection with a bunch of spec bumps. I mean, even though I had my issues with the Sony A7R3, I certainly had a lot of fun playing with it, and mostly because it was so different.



I think this EOS R is quite impressive, I'll be curious to see some in depth reviews on it, especially Dustin Abbott's take on it and his view on some of these RF lenses. Personally I'll wait a few years before I'll even consider buying a FF Mirrorless. I'm content and thoroughly enjoying using the gear I currently have and know I'm good for a few years with it unless I break something. I'll be more interested in a 7D3 if it has a flip screen for a 80D replacement in a few years if anything..... The 90D may be a viable option too (if they are making one?)

As far as I can see these RF lenses are VERY expensive, so I image most will be purchasing this camera as a body only w/adapter and will be using their current Canon lenses or perhaps getting the body with the RF 35mm which is only around 500.00. Geeze, the RF 24-105mm f/4 kit lens is 1100.00 bucks! It would have to be very sharp for me to justify paying that much for it!
$3500.00 for a EOS R/24-105mm lens/adapter/ is a little steep for me for an entry level FF Mirrorless Package.....

I sometimes wonder how people can afford to upgrade camera bodies or completely switch systems every 12 months or so!

I also believe this EOS R may be available around Christmas with a little price break with a couple of retailers. Those interested may want to be a little patient right now and wait until then to see if they may save a few hundred bucks on it.....

Personally if I had 2 or 3 grand stashed for a FF Mirrorless purchase from Canon I'd keep saving and wait for their next version up, I'm sure it will be a monster that'll likely blow away this EOS R, (but will probably cost near 4 grand).


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## Andrew Davies Photography (Sep 6, 2018)

Disappointed personally, as a wedding tog would love to move to mirrorless but one card slot is a no go for me and definitely not sd ( only cards that have ever failed on me have been SD ) . Will wait and see when they bring in a higher spec model.

Wedding Photographer North East & Yorkshire Northumberland & Wedding Photographer Cumbria


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## WillT (Sep 6, 2018)

I am going to give the Sony a try if it works out I will go that direction. The glass looks nice, but if I have to invest in a new mount I am not going to wait as Canon continues to drag their feet with the bodies.


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## Architect1776 (Sep 6, 2018)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> 4K is auto cropped to "_Super 35mm-like resolution_"... may be to match the look and feel of their cinema camera output??
> 
> Have a nice day.



If you want serious video then get the Canon C700.
This is a still camera with some video features for boring home movies that all but you find painfully boring. 
Those truly interested in video productions have no interest in these hybrid cameras. 
This is a still camera with video capabilities. 
I get so bored with the drivel from those who complain about still camera video. Same with ibis as optical is far superior and way more so with WA lenses.


----------



## GadgetDave (Sep 6, 2018)

Respinder said:


> When I was thinking about the "additive" vs "subtractive" approach, I specifically thought about cell phones, or more specifically, the iPhone. Whenever Apple introduces a new iPhone, they don't attempt to restrict a key feature from the phone - rather they go all out and try to cram as much as they can into each successive iteration of the phone. Same goes with Apple Watch and any other Apple product for that matter.
> 
> Same is true with Nikon and Sony. Sony for sure is using an additive approach, cramming as much tech as they can into their cameras - mostly due to the fact that they were the underdog and had to prove themselves, but even now they continue to put as many features as they can. With Nikon I think its the same thing to be honest - with the D800 they arguably took a huge risk putting a huge MP sensor into a camera like that while putting a lower MP sensor into their flagship D4. But they still went ahead with it and were able to successfully separate the two lines. While the Nikon Z certainly is missing features, I feel it is more due to Nikon's lack of R&D money vs Sony and Canon and them having to focus on specific features versus others.
> 
> With Canon, I just feel that there are outright obvious examples where features have been subtracted for no reason. Not having C-log in the 1DX Mark II is the perfect example. How do you justify putting C-log into the 5D Mark IV and now the EOS R - both which have crop and rolling shutter, but you don't put it in the 1DX Mark II which has less crop and less of a rolling shutter problem? Just makes no sense to me.



Apple may be an ok comparison for a few reasons. If you look, most of the things they "add" have been in competitors' products for years (See Samsung, Motorola, LG). Certainly they do have a few things that they have led the way on, or tried to improve on - but someone help us if Canon is ever as closed as Apple is. That being said (and I am NOT an Apple fanboy, the opposite in fact), I think that they sometimes wait and do things better than their competitors by learning what works and perfecting something. Maybe that's the Canon model. They're just slow at it.


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## Deleted member 380306 (Sep 6, 2018)

That's a beast of a camera once the 50mm lens is attach, a smaller form factor all round would have been preferred and some onboard IBIS would have made me jump NOW, will hold off and see how this pans out once people start using it and we get to read their thoughts, see their images plus find out how this camera performs in the field ref DR, low light, focusing etc etc...

Image found here: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/9/5/17822556/canon-eos-r-camera-hands-on-preview-photos


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## MickDK (Sep 6, 2018)

nchoh said:


> 1) Because IBIS was an afterthought, the throat diameter is tight for the additional space needed to accommodate the movement of the sensor.
> 
> 2) Because of the greater incident angle that a small flange distance requires, wide angle lenses are difficult to design.
> 
> ...


Don't worry. I never decide lightly on any potential costly decision  - re. (1) this doesn't seem to be a major limitation given Sony claim 5.5 stop using IBIS - and re. (2) they do have a 12-24mm F4 zoom and 3. parties offer 10mm (though F5.6). So maybe difficult but not impossible it seems.

Anyway - thanks for your thoughts!


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## amorse (Sep 6, 2018)

Architect1776 said:


> If you want serious video then get the Canon C700.
> This is a still camera with some video features for boring home movies that all but you find painfully boring.
> Those truly interested in video productions have no interest in these hybrid cameras.
> This is a still camera with video capabilities.
> I get so bored with the drivel from those who complain about still camera video. Same with ibis as optical is far superior and way more so with WA lenses.


Like you, I really don't care for ILC video - just not my thing, and not likely the best tool for the job. I'd be perfectly happy if my camera didn't even have video (not that I'm advocating for that product).

With that said though, I think there is a notable (and growing) subset of users who do want video in that form factor because it is (relatively) compact, and can generate high-quality and shallow depth of field video, and can double as a stills camera. Youtube vloggers seem to really like the ILC form factor for those reasons, and expect to hand hold the camera facing themselves with the ability to change lenses for creative footage. Obviously that is currently a small subset of the market, but recently I read an article which suggested that in some places "Youtube vlogger" is now one of the most desired career paths for children. If that's going to be a growing market segment in the future, it would be foolish to ignore it. 

Further, some of today's bigger vloggers have literally millions of people watching their videos, which are often being shot on ILCs really designed for stills. Casey Neistat has over 10 million subscribers, and while it isn't what I'd call a photography vlog, he does review gear and spreads his opinion to millions of people. There are plenty of vloggers just like him. If Vloggers are judging cameras based on suitability for vlogging and then spreading that opinion to millions of people (many of whom hoping to follow in these vloggers' footsteps), that can have an impact on consumer buying choices in time.

Again, I'm not a video person so it makes no difference to me, but ignoring the video crowd could (in the long term) have negative implications when the reviewers with millions of followers are video people. Traditional video cameras just don't fit the need or the financial capability of many users. I suspect the demands for video capability in ILCs will only get louder, despite the fact that other purposefully designed tools are available.


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## bokehmon22 (Sep 6, 2018)

Colorado said:


> Err, in case the winking smiley didn't make it clear, I was trying to point out that expecting Canon to sell a camera with a sensor from a $3100 camera in a $1600 camera is not realistic. Prices on sensors come down but not that much that quickly.



My bad. I agree with you then


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## Mikehit (Sep 6, 2018)

amorse said:


> Again, I'm not a video person so it makes no difference to me, but ignoring the video crowd could (in the long term) have negative implications when the reviewers with millions of followers are video people. Traditional video cameras just don't fit the need or the financial capability of many users. I suspect the demands for video capability in ILCs will only get louder, despite the fact that other purposefully designed tools are available.



Isn't that a bit over-dramatic? The question is not whether Canon are ignoring the video crowd, because they have a perfectly acceptable video function. The question really is when they need to have available full-frame 4K and 1080p 120pfs and blah...blah...blah..

This is so reminiscent of the mirrorless camera discussions over the last 5 years with people predicting doom and gloom because Canon did not have FF mirrorless and DID NOT DO IT RIGHT NOW! And over the last 5 years, how much have Canon lost by not having FF mirrorless? Precisely zip worth talking about. Even the M50 and 6Dii, cameras panned for the spec sheet have got some pretty impressive reviews by those who use them.

The fact is not whether it will be done but when. And every step Canon has made seems to have been judged pretty well - and yet people still talk as if Canon do not know what they are doing..


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## Durf (Sep 6, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Isn't that a bit over-dramatic? The question is not whether Canon are ignoring the video crowd, because they have a perfectly acceptable video function. The question really is when they need to have available full-frame 4K and 1080p 120pfs and blah...blah...blah..
> 
> This is so reminiscent of the mirrorless camera discussions over the last 5 years with people predicting doom and gloom because Canon did not have FF mirrorless and DID NOT DO IT RIGHT NOW! And over the last 5 years, how much have Canon lost by not having FF mirrorless? Precisely zip worth talking about. Even the M50 and 6Dii, cameras panned for the spec sheet have got some pretty impressive reviews by those who use them.
> 
> The fact is not whether it will be done but when. And every step Canon has made seems to have been judged pretty well - and yet people still talk as if Canon do not know what they are doing..



Drama is the theme of the times we are in for sure!

With all the specs on this camera I'm sure it'll will work just fine for video for 95% of the folks out there....sheesh, if you want a high end video production rig one just needs to go and buy one, this is a stills camera with "better than average" consumer grade video capabilities.

Many just hunt and thrive on things to complain about!

I do all my Youtube video's with a 2015 T6i using a 10-18mm STM lens, the IQ looks just fine to me......


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## amorse (Sep 6, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Isn't that a bit over-dramatic? The question is not whether Canon are ignoring the video crowd, because they have a perfectly acceptable video function. The question really is when they need to have available full-frame 4K and 1080p 120pfs and blah...blah...blah..
> 
> This is so reminiscent of the mirrorless camera discussions over the last 5 years with people predicting doom and gloom because Canon did not have FF mirrorless and DID NOT DO IT RIGHT NOW! And over the last 5 years, how much have Canon lost by not having FF mirrorless? Precisely zip worth talking about. Even the M50 and 6Dii, cameras panned for the spec sheet have got some pretty impressive reviews by those who use them.
> 
> The fact is not whether it will be done but when. And every step Canon has made seems to have been judged pretty well - and yet people still talk as if Canon do not know what they are doing..


I don't think it is over dramatic in the context of the comment I was replying to, and I think my comment is getting bit misrepresented here - I'm not suggesting that Canon is failing at video. Far from it. Canon will be, and has been, fine without packing every video feature into their ILCs.

The comment I was replying to made the suggestion that "Those truly interested in video productions have no interest in these hybrid cameras" and recommended that anyone who really wants video should get a C700 and be done with it. That perspective is, I think, shortsighted considering the demand for video in ILCs, and the fact that the people making recommendations (those who are shaping opinions) are biased on the need for video as it's what they're using to make their living. A C700 is not a suitable replacement for those who want a full frame video with interchangeable lenses in a relatively small package. Yes, lots of people are nitpicking over the finer details of what is "good enough" for video, but I'm not at all commenting on whether or not Canon's implementation is sufficient.

My only point here is that consideration must be given to video and it shouldn't be written off for ILCs (as I felt was suggested by the post I was replying to), not the sky is falling and Canon are leaving people out in the cold.


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## Durf (Sep 6, 2018)

amorse said:


> My only point here is that consideration must be given to video and it shouldn't be written off for ILCs (as I felt was suggested by the post I was replying to), not the sky is falling and Canon are leaving people out in the cold.



I didn't mean to sound like I was taking a swipe at ya....

When I'm out with my gear I'm 99% a stills photographer; but, on occasions I am totally glad my cameras are video capable as I do enjoy capturing certain things/memories in a video.

I'm one of those that are totally satisfied with a good 1080p HD video and don't quite understand the 4k frenzie. Me not having 4k doesn't make me feel like the world is ending or left out in any way shape or form......


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## Mikehit (Sep 6, 2018)

amorse said:


> I don't think it is over dramatic in the context of the comment I was replying to, and I think my comment is getting bit misrepresented here - I'm not suggesting that Canon is failing at video. Far from it. Canon will be, and has been, fine without packing every video feature into their ILCs.
> 
> The comment I was replying to made the suggestion that "Those truly interested in video productions have no interest in these hybrid cameras" and recommended that anyone who really wants video should get a C700 and be done with it. That perspective is, I think, shortsighted considering the demand for video in ILCs, and the fact that the people making recommendations (those who are shaping opinions) are biased on the need for video as it's what they're using to make their living. A C700 is not a suitable replacement for those who want a full frame video with interchangeable lenses in a relatively small package. Yes, lots of people are nitpicking over the finer details of what is "good enough" for video, but I'm not at all commenting on whether or not Canon's implementation is sufficient.
> 
> My only point here is that consideration must be given to video and it shouldn't be written off for ILCs (as I felt was suggested by the post I was replying to), not the sky is falling and Canon are leaving people out in the cold.



That's a fair summation. I don't think Canon has any intention of abandoning the video crowd in the EOS lines but they will include functionality that they think is robust and meets the majority need.
In the video of the launch, it was interesting that Canon made the comment to the effect of 'Our intention was never to be first but to do it when we were happy it was right'. They are building their video capabilities slowly but surely in a way that when the customer turns on [Function X] then Function X is what they will get with minimal risk of it crapping out.
I think people are confusing 'we do not have the technology yet' with 'we don't care about video and want to protect our other lines'.


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## amorse (Sep 6, 2018)

Durf said:


> I didn't mean to sound like I was taking a swipe at ya....
> 
> When I'm out with my gear I'm 99% a stills photographer; but, on occasions I am totally glad my cameras are video capable as I do enjoy capturing certain things/memories in a video.
> 
> I'm one of those that are totally satisfied with a good 1080p HD video and don't quite understand the 4k frenzie. Me not having 4k doesn't make me feel like the world is ending or left out in any way shape or form......


No offence taken at all! The tone in the forum can get a bit hostile sometimes (on both sides of the conversation), so things seem to escalate quickly. I agree on 1080p - frankly, I don't want to stream 4K; it cripples my home internet any time I watch it. I understand why some want it, but it isn't the be all and end all of video. 

I do think some of this frenzy is being driven by vloggers: making inflammatory/controversial comments draws people to their videos and generates ad revenue. Further, the reach of these people is growing rapidly - Peter McKinnon got to 2 million subscribers in just over a year (and is a Canon Vlogger no less!). Considering that they review gear based on their needs, and their needs are video, those sort of comments driving the frenzy will likely increase regardless of what the market actually demands. I think that's one of the reasons we see so many comments on lack of specific features, but see continued market dominance by Canon. Canon will respond to what sells, but regardless, the commentary will get louder as the reach of video people extend.


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## Durf (Sep 6, 2018)

amorse said:


> No offence taken at all! The tone in the forum can get a bit hostile sometimes (on both sides of the conversation), so things seem to escalate quickly. I agree on 1080p - frankly, I don't want to stream 4K; it cripples my home internet any time I watch it. I understand why some want it, but it isn't the be all and end all of video.
> 
> I do think some of this frenzy is being driven by vloggers: making inflammatory/controversial comments draws people to their videos and generates ad revenue. Further, the reach of these people is growing rapidly - Peter McKinnon got to 2 million subscribers in just over a year (and is a Canon Vlogger no less!). Considering that they review gear based on their needs, and their needs are video, those sort of comments driving the frenzy will likely increase regardless of what the market actually demands. I think that's one of the reasons we see so many comments on lack of specific features, but see continued market dominance by Canon. Canon will respond to what sells, but regardless, the commentary will get louder as the reach of video people extend.



I suspect that the majority of those that buy cameras do not purchase them depending on who's screaming the loudest on Youtube! lol

I often read comments in purchase reviews and also rely on hands on reviews like Dustin Abbott's. (or just simply use common sense) 

I bought the 6D2 a month or so after it was released regardless of all the negative Youtube and forum screaming about it and am 110% satisfied with my purchase. I actually had the money for the 5D4 but got the 6D2 instead simply because of the flip screen. I love the camera and use it almost daily.

I feel this EOS R camera is another sleeper and versitile camera but the lens pricing scares me off. If I was seriously considering buying it, it would be body only and I'd just get an adapter and use my current lenses. 

The EOS R will likely soon be considered the best FF Vlogging camera, especially for the Youtube. That forward facing screen will likely be the best selling point on this camera IMO. many will scoop it up for that reason only.....


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## amorse (Sep 6, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> That's a fair summation. I don't think Canon has any intention of abandoning the video crowd in the EOS lines but they will include functionality that they think is robust and meets the majority need.
> In the video of the launch, it was interesting that Canon made the comment to the effect of 'Our intention was never to be first but to do it when we were happy it was right'. They are building their video capabilities slowly but surely in a way that when the customer turns on [Function X] then Function X is what they will get with minimal risk of it crapping out.
> I think people are confusing 'we do not have the technology yet' with 'we don't care about video and want to protect our other lines'.


Absolutely agreed, and I'll go one step further: The EOS R will become one of the most popular vlogging cameras on the market despite it's shortcomings. It is the only full frame camera with a front facing screen and 4K. Yes, it's missing some features that the vlogging community seem to want, but it is the *only *full frame mirrorless camera that will let you record yourself while seeing your composition without additional gear - the only other camera is the 6D II. So really, vloggers who want a very shallow depth of field can choose between seeing yourself in the composition during filming, or 120 fps 1080p and full sensor 4K. If you ask a vlogger which they think will make a bigger difference to their filming, I'd probably bet a lot will pick the reversible screen - especially if they ever film away from a controlled environment hand-held. With that said, Panasonic will release a mirrorless full frame camera and likely have the flipping screen too, but we'll see what happens.


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## Talys (Sep 6, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> That's a beast of a camera once the 50mm lens is attach, a smaller form factor all round would have been preferred and some onboard IBIS would have made me jump NOW, will hold off and see how this pans out once people start using it and we get to read their thoughts, see their images plus find out how this camera performs in the field ref DR, low light, focusing etc etc...
> 
> Image found here: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/9/5/17822556/canon-eos-r-camera-hands-on-preview-photos




I'm the opposite. I would not be interested in it at all if it were smaller than it is; one of my main complaints of the A7 is that it's just too small for the lenses I want to mount, like 70-200/2.8 and 100-400, so much so vertically that I can't really use it without a grip, which basically takes away any size savings and leaves kind of odd proportions to the camera body. Also, shrinking the body would mean losing that top display, which I really, really like.


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## amorse (Sep 6, 2018)

Durf said:


> I suspect that the majority of those that buy cameras do not purchase them depending on who's screaming the loudest on Youtube! lol
> 
> I often read comments in purchase reviews and also rely on hands on reviews like Dustin Abbott's. (or just simply use common sense)
> 
> ...


Certainly not the majority, but some do! Many of those vloggers have affiliate links in their videos, so they make money off of clicks there too - I'd be really curious to see how much conversion they're actually creating. I would bet the majority of camera buyers make the decision in the camera store, and I am betting that's why the EOS R's class-leading features are targeted toward the things you notice in a store - i.e. EVF sharpness and response time, flipping screen, great ergonomics, etc.

I think you're right about the 6D II - several vloggers have come out and said the 6D II is the best vlogging camera on the market in hind sight. It comes down to full frame + reversible screen - there is no other camera on the market that has both of those features, until the EOS R that is! I am betting the EOS R ends up being a huge vlogging hit despite its shortcomings.

I was between the 6DII and the 5D IV last summer, but I went with the 5D IV. For all the flak the camera has received, I have a hard time picturing me using anything else. For me, the decision fell to DR, resolution, and durability. In all fairness, I was very close to going for the 6D II.

I'm interested in the EOS R for stills as a secondary camera to the 5D IV, but my big hesitation is what's coming next and where Canon goes from here. For instance, the R would be a great backup to my current kit (since I only have the one body now), but if Canon releases a mirrorless 5Dsr equivalent next, I may rather see the new camera act as a primary, and the 5D IV the backup. My biggest hesitation with the EOS R right now is battery life on the LP-E6N and weather sealing, especially with adapters. I shoot mostly landscapes while camping, so I need those batteries to last and I need the camera to be reliable in rain. For that, I'm waiting for the hands on reviews. Dustin is great though, I always appreciate his thoroughness.


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## nchoh (Sep 6, 2018)

Alino said:


> Excuse if it has been reported previewsly. I didn't read all!
> 
> On the white paper documentation p.30 we can read about mount adapter EF-EOS R:
> 
> ...





MickDK said:


> Don't worry. I never decide lightly on any potential costly decision  - re. (1) this doesn't seem to be a major limitation given Sony claim 5.5 stop using IBIS - and re. (2) they do have a 12-24mm F4 zoom and 3. parties offer 10mm (though F5.6). So maybe difficult but not impossible it seems.
> 
> Anyway - thanks for your thoughts!



Actually, even though (1) talks about IBIS, it is actually really about space available for the lens is reduced due to IBIS. In short, both (1) and (2) implies that Sony will have challenges going forward when trying to develop lighter, higher quality lenses.


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## dtaylor (Sep 6, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> Video will always be a secondary and suboptimal function on a primarily stills camera.



How can you look at the A7 III or just announced XT3 and say that with a straight face?

Do you know how many Canon wedding photographers would be adding an R to their kit if the R had video features similar to the A7 III? Canon wouldn't be able to make enough of them.


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## dtaylor (Sep 6, 2018)

Architect1776 said:


> If you want serious video then get the Canon C700.
> This is a still camera with some video features for boring home movies that all but you find painfully boring.
> Those truly interested in video productions have no interest in these hybrid cameras.
> This is a still camera with video capabilities.
> I get so bored with the drivel from those who complain about still camera video. Same with ibis as optical is far superior and way more so with WA lenses.



The market quite clearly says otherwise. And the C700 costs more than a lot of cars.

Also: if we are to ignore video features because this is a stills camera, then what does it offer over a 5Dsr or 5D4, both of which can be bought gray market for nearly the same price? What does it even offer over the 6D2?


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## Mikehit (Sep 6, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> How can you look at the A7 III or just announced XT3 and say that with a straight face?



For the last 5 years, sales of cameras without FF video have whupped those with it. Go figure.



dtaylor said:


> Do you know how many Canon wedding photographers would be adding an R to their kit if the R had video features similar to the A7 III?



No - do you?
My guess is it would follow the historical trend with 1080p being good enough for most of them.


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## kaptainkatsu (Sep 6, 2018)

Honestly the 4k crop isn't a huge deal. It just crops to Super35, which most cine cameras shoot anyway.


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## padam (Sep 6, 2018)

kaptainkatsu said:


> Honestly the 4k crop isn't a huge deal. It just crops to Super35, which most cine cameras shoot anyway.


Unfortunately not quite because that is 1.5x(slightly wider than Canon's APS-C size), it is more like 1.8x, so a pretty big difference. A 1DX II at 1.4x is just much better, but it's huge, heavy, uses expensive cards and batteries and has features that most people simply don't need and of course it will never get C-Log (and yet they still buy it for video, because it is still great).


But anyways, here is a short promotional video by Devin Graham:





If anyone is interested, the lenses seen in the BTS video were:
EF 11-24/4
EF 16-35/2.8 III
RF 24-105/4
RF 28-70/2 (this was his favourite)


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## -pekr- (Sep 7, 2018)

Am I alone thinking, that Canon overdone it with the buttons, modes, etc.? Looking at some videos it seems like you need 3 hands and 2 brains to remember all the possible combinations and nested modes


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## JustForFun (Sep 7, 2018)

I took out time to watch all of Canon's videos and read the white paper. The video relating to the electronic viewfinder and automatic focus cast some light on the limitations of the use of EF lenses on the RF mount. I had to watch a portion of the video about three times over to make sure I was clear in my understanding that some of the functionality of the electronic viewfinder and automatic focus will be limited to RF lenses only. 

Also, I sent an e-mail to Canon, and here is their direct quote: "You are correct. There are some features of the EOS R that will only be available with the RF lenses, such as the lens distance scale and control ring rotation. Since these products were just announced resources for them are limited. The videos and EOS R system whitepaper (HERE) are the most current information we have on the equipment. As we get closer to the release date more information will become available." 

I am sure that even using their adapters, some specialized functions that will be available using RF lenses will not be available for EF and EF-S lenses.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 7, 2018)

fullstop said:


> In all likelihood not possible. RF are for 54mm throat width, Sony E-mount is too narrow, especially with only 2mm FFD difference.



I agree. Pretty sure that Canon carefully considered how they force those who want such a lens have to buy an EOS R body.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 7, 2018)

scyrene said:


> +1
> 
> I don't do video really, but if I did, it'd be mostly birds, and the crop factor works in our favour here. Given there are ways around it for the wide stuff (I know it's not ideal, but there are FF lenses going to what? 8mm? And in this case with EF-S lenses wider options aren't *too* expensive), I find the wailing and gnashing of teeth a bit much - but I accept I'm in a minority here.



Add me to your minority report


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 7, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Not with a mount as narrow as Sony's.
> 
> Even if the flange distance difference were enough to accept bayonet tabs and electrical contacts (which it isn't), the mount throat by itself could cause vignetting with RF lenses.



I agree.


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## fullstop (Sep 7, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> I agree. Pretty sure that Canon carefully considered how they force those who want such a lens have to buy an EOS R body.



I don't think this was at the forefront of Canon's decision. More likely a "welcome side effect". Canon simply chose R mount parameters they consider optimal for their EOS R FF mirrorless system for the next 20+ years and which allow for good backwards compatibility with existing EF lenses. They know that only a tiny fraction of their customers would ever go and adapt Sony or Nikon lenses via cross-platform adapters, even if it is/were technically feasible.


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 7, 2018)

Which means that even at their first mirrorless product introduction Canon was 6 years behind.

Of course I could get even farther afield and point out that the Epson RD-1 and Leica digital mirrorless cameras were introduced over 14 years earlier (in 2004) where Panasonic's mirrorless G1 came in 2008. 

I can't help but feel a lot has changed in terms of customer expectations for imaging in the 10 years since the Panasonic G1. How we consume images is very rapidly evolving. But it matters little, I suspect. Canon will sell what it can and that will be that.



nchoh said:


> The EOS M was introduced in 2012, so actually only 4 years!


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## scyrene (Sep 7, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> At the end of the day some brands are more concerned about profit and not giving us the best but most reasonable offering possible and it wont change as long as people defend business for being business.



Nope. ALL brands (in tech at least) are equally concerned with profit. They take different strategic approaches, but the goal is the same. Sony doesn't pack loads of new features in their cameras out of a sense of charity towards their customers, they do it because they think it's the most effective way of getting more customers. Canon takes a different approach. You're letting your judgment be clouded by your personal annoyance that one brand doesn't give you precisely what you want. A lot of people do, but let's not pretend it's business insight.


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## Mikehit (Sep 7, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Am I alone thinking, that Canon overdone it with the buttons, modes, etc.? Looking at some videos it seems like you need 3 hands and 2 brains to remember all the possible combinations and nested modes


Unfortunately, if mirrorless = smaller as most people imagine and want, then that means less real estate for buttons and dials. And the smaller the button the more squidgy and harder hit right especially with gloves on. So that means a reliance on menus and multi-function buttons. 
Of the mirrorless, I like Fuji (not shot with one but it is the look of them) and Pana (which I do use) but even Pana has issues with the firmness of the button push.


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## Mikehit (Sep 7, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Nope. ALL brands (in tech at least) are equally concerned with profit. They take different strategic approaches, but the goal is the same. Sony doesn't pack loads of new features in their cameras out of a sense of charity towards their customers, they do it because they think it's the most effective way of getting more customers. Canon takes a different approach. You're letting your judgment be clouded by your personal annoyance that one brand doesn't give you precisely what you want. A lot of people do, but let's not pretend it's business insight.



And comments like Ray's (and he is far from alone) are based on the assumptions that (a) the only research and development that matters is that which appears on the spec sheet and (b) the company is holding back a shedload of market-leading technology for no other reason than to protect sales of a 3-year-old line of video cameras.


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## Aaron D (Sep 7, 2018)

OK aside from how this works as a camera, it's got to be said: that bump on top is the most poorly sculpted of all the mirrorless bodies. I know I know I know it doesn't matter—it's a camera and a tool. But look at the M5 or even the G1 X iii. Visually there is some micro encephalitis going on here.


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## padam (Sep 7, 2018)

Two more videos with more interesting details:


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## BillB (Sep 7, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Unfortunately, if mirrorless = smaller as most people imagine and want, then that means less real estate for buttons and dials. And the smaller the button the more squidgy and harder hit right especially with gloves on. So that means a reliance on menus and multi-function buttons.
> Of the mirrorless, I like Fuji (not shot with one but it is the look of them) and Pana (which I do use) but even Pana has issues with the firmness of the button push.


It isn't just about cameras getting smaller, they are also getting more complicated to set up, with more options, and the ability/need to reprogram keys etc. The good news is there is more flexibility, but the bad news is that you may need to put in some work to set the camera up the way you want it. More good news is that there will be setup suggestions available on the web for the new cameras. For example, Brian Carnathan has suggestions that I used to set up my 5DIV, which I found with a google search. Once I got the camera set up with custom modes and menus, the touchscreen controls work very well.


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## dak723 (Sep 8, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> How can you look at the A7 III or just announced XT3 and say that with a straight face?
> 
> Do you know how many Canon wedding photographers would be adding an R to their kit if the R had video features similar to the A7 III? Canon wouldn't be able to make enough of them.



No Sony for me for video for one simple reason, they still don't AF well from what I've been told. Lot's of small hunting while trying to focus. According to some, Canon with DPAF still wins on that front. I don;t have a Sony, so can't say for sure, but have compared my Canons to other mirroless brands. So, it all depends on what video features and aspects are most important to each person. For me, fosusing trumps all the codecs, bitrates and everything else where Canon is supposedly inferior.


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## dak723 (Sep 8, 2018)

Durf said:


> Drama is the theme of the times we are in for sure!
> 
> With all the specs on this camera I'm sure it'll will work just fine for video for 95% of the folks out there....sheesh, if you want a high end video production rig one just needs to go and buy one, this is a stills camera with "better than average" consumer grade video capabilities.
> 
> ...



Completely agree. I plan on doing some how-to videos for YouTube and my M5 does an excellent job. While there are obviously some video folks who are doing high-end stuff, but my guess is that most of the complainers here are essentially wannabes. The read about the latest tech and feel like if they are using it, that makes them "pros." There stuff could easily be done without 4K, without anything but the standard codecs and at 30 fps. There are so many folks who just want to boast and show-off.


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## kaptainkatsu (Sep 10, 2018)

padam said:


> Unfortunately not quite because that is 1.5x(slightly wider than Canon's APS-C size), it is more like 1.8x, so a pretty big difference. A 1DX II at 1.4x is just much better, but it's huge, heavy, uses expensive cards and batteries and has features that most people simply don't need and of course it will never get C-Log (and yet they still buy it for video, because it is still great).




I'm kind of pissed that Canon won't put c-log on the 1DX2 (as a 1DX2 owner)


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## Aaron D (Sep 28, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Am I alone thinking, that Canon overdone it with the buttons, modes, etc.? Looking at some videos it seems like you need 3 hands and 2 brains to remember all the possible combinations and nested modes



Yeah I agree. I downloaded the manual and gave myself a stomach ache trying to figure it out. Basic stuff like setting the ISO or drive mode is buried out of sight. I don't know if my brain can program the C1 mode. Really getting nervous about this now that the initial excitement is fading…….


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## Mikehit (Sep 28, 2018)

That seems to be a running issue with mirrorless cameras and may come about by the push for smaller sizes - smaller size means less real estate to put buttons and dials and what buttons you do use are either large with a positive action or small and squishy. So they usually end up with a reliance on menus with ability to program a few buttons in a way that suits the user (aayhay! look how customisable it is) I think Fuji have got the balance best but it can't be easy to design


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