# There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016 [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 22, 2016)

```
Lost in the madness that is all the <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/confirmation-of-upcoming-product-announcements/">new products over the next couple of weeks</a> is the EOS M. There will not be any EOS M announcements for Photokina, which I think is totally understandable. Nothing in the Canon lineup brings about as much hype as a new EOS 5D body.</p>
<p>The good news is that we will see a new EOS M camera and a lens announced in 2016. I suspect we’ll see it before CES 2017 which starts on January 5, 2017 in Las Vegas.</p>
<p><strong>What we know about the coming EOS M:</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>It will be a replacement to the EOS M3, but it won’t be called “M4”. Say hello to the M5.</li>
<li>It will go slightly up market from the EOS M3.</li>
<li>It will be APS-C.</li>
<li>A new lens will be announced alongside it, an EF-M 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3 IS is a good bet.</li>
<li>We cannot confirm DPAF or 4K.</li>
</ul>
<p>That’s all for now, but expect to hear some more over the coming weeks.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

No built-in EVF? Not full frame? Stupid Canon... 

Seriously, though...makes perfect sense in the context of the market. Hopefully 'slightly upmarket' means a return to the EOS firmware base of the M/M2 vs. the PowerShot firmware base of the M3/M10. Superzoom lens makes sense. Would expect DPAF (without DP RAW), probably not 4K.

People should keep in mind that the target demographic for the M line is mainly Asia, and Canon is now #3 in MILC sales in that market. IIRC, they stated they were aiming for #2 this year, but it seems they'll miss that mark.


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## sunnyVan (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

A big range zoom like this will probably be at least 500g. Camera itself is probably about 350-450g. The whole package is about 900-1000g. 

80D + 18-135=1200g. Not a huge saving in terms of weight.

Hope they manage to keep it smaller and lighter than I'm imagining. Otherwise, it won't be very attractive.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



Canon Rumors said:


> Lost in the madness that is all the <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/confirmation-of-upcoming-product-announcements/">new products over the next couple of weeks</a> is the EOS M. There will not be any EOS M announcements for Photokina, which I think is totally understandable. Nothing in the Canon lineup brings about as much hype as a new EOS 5D body.</p>



makes total sense.

Canon's competitor's in this market are the lower end M43's .. the X-A3 and the upcoming Sony 5200.

I can see a DiGiC 7 upgrade similar to the G7X.

which could go a long way of fixing some of the outstanding issues. 6-8fps RAW, faster AF,etc. would certainly put it back into the competitive market for a sub 600 body.

a 18-150 would actually be quite nice.


I could see that lens being in the 300-350g range simply because the 55-200mm is around 260g.


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## Haydn1971 (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



sunnyVan said:


> A big range zoom like this will probably be at least 500g. Camera itself is probably about 350-450g. The whole package is about 900-1000g.
> 
> 80D + 18-135=1200g. Not a huge saving in terms of weight.
> 
> Hope they manage to keep it smaller and lighter than I'm imagining. Otherwise, it won't be very attractive.



The 55-200mm is only 260g, the 18-55mm just 210g, I'd expect similar or a tad more, definitely below 300g, the M3 is only 366g, no real reason to expect anything more than 400g with EVF - so no more than 700g, almost half the weight of the 80D and 18-135 combo - which is actually 1165g


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## sunnyVan (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

Tamron has a 18-200mm for the EOS M. It weighs about 460g. This is why I'm expecting more or less the same weight. I don't mind some nice surprises though. 



Haydn1971 said:


> sunnyVan said:
> 
> 
> > A big range zoom like this will probably be at least 500g. Camera itself is probably about 350-450g. The whole package is about 900-1000g.
> ...


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## NorbR (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

Good. 
I'll keep holding on to my EF-M lenses, then, even though I don't have an M body anymore. 

Keeping the ergonomics of the M3 is good news, I've always thought it was right in the sweet spot. For me the deal breaker will be DPAF, it's time to bring this to the M lineup.


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## David (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

As much as I love Canon as a 5D2 and 6D owner, I really wonder what is the decision behind not offering a mirrorless stills camera with a FF sensor or at least a APSC enthusiast mirrorless camera with an EVF. IMHO the market is here for such a device and there is a lot of money ready to jump into a Pro or enthusiast Canon mirrorless camera. The 5DIV will be a great refined camera but too big for carrying around all day. The tech for a mirrorless camera is here and hinders me - and certainly other too - to spend another time that much money for a DSLR while mirrorless seem overdue. Do I have to conclude that I need to jump to another brand or will one of the next Canon FF DSLR cameras be that small that the difference to a comparable mirrorless camera shows as irrelevant? It is kind of difficult to understand Canon's strategy. I would like to stay with Canon but I am just not buying Canon as long as I do not see where Canon wants to go.


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## naylor83 (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



NorbR said:


> Good.
> I'll keep holding on to my EF-M lenses, then, even though I don't have an M body anymore.
> 
> Keeping the ergonomics of the M3 is good news, I've always thought it was right in the sweet spot. For me the deal breaker will be DPAF, it's time to bring this to the M lineup.



Lol, it's been time for a while now. I don't get it. They've had this brilliant technology that would have totally KILLED in a mirrorless camera, but for some obscure reason they've kept it back. Why?

Queue the Canon economics experts who can explain why it all made perfect financial sense.


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## crashpc (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

Remembering CameraStore reviews of M, I cannot wait for their M5 review ;-)


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## rrcphoto (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



naylor83 said:


> NorbR said:
> 
> 
> > Good.
> ...



a) battery life.
b) not sure how well it will work with a short registration distance mirrorless.
c) cost (if you'll note, every camera that has dual pixel is north of 1K for the body at release)


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## Bob Howland (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



Canon Rumors said:


> It will go slightly up market from the EOS M3.



How slightly is "slightly"? After using my G7X on a sunny day, I'm even more convinced that if the M5 doesn't have a viewfinder, I'm not interested.


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## Sporgon (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



neuroanatomist said:


> No built-in EVF? Not full frame? Stupid Canon...



The detachable EVF is one of the M3's best features. If you buy it all together as a kit then the EVF adds little to the price. I really enjoy being able to look down into the viewfinder, maybe because it reminds me of my Bronica days, but mainly because it's just so damned comfortable. It's also great reviewing the image that way too. (I get the Stupid Canon reference!)



David said:


> As much as I love Canon as a 5D2 and 6D owner, I really wonder what is the decision behind not offering a mirrorless stills camera with a FF sensor



I think it's down to size. Mirrorless seems to be best matched with smaller. lighter at present. 



rrcphoto said:


> b) not sure how well it will work with a short registration distance mirrorless.



You may be on to something there. It seems that the sensor in the M3 is just lifted from the 760D, so it is based on a greater distance, which then creates issues with the M lenses, vignetting being quite strong. This may be why I find I get much better results from the EF lenses ( or any other FF lens mounted via the adapter for that matter.) 

So I could see dual pixel that is based upon dslr distances giving light issues.


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## Schwingi (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

EVF or bust.


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## freejay (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

They should just put the 80D's technique into a G5X like body - maybe slightly bigger but with all the buttons and wheels + full articulating screen and an updated EVF.

What?

One can always dream...


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## H. Jones (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



NorbR said:


> Good.
> I'll keep holding on to my EF-M lenses, then, even though I don't have an M body anymore.
> 
> Keeping the ergonomics of the M3 is good news, I've always thought it was right in the sweet spot. For me the deal breaker will be DPAF, it's time to bring this to the M lineup.



I would say the M3 chassis is basically the ideal mirrorless chassis for me. Tried one out at BH Photo, and although I could use a slightly bigger grip, it's extremely comfortable and usable for a camera of that size. I would totally be all-in if they released a full-frame M3 with the Canon DSLR software instead of being like a powershot. I would really love a mirrorless 35mm f/2 or f/1.4 on that. I wouldn't even buy any other lenses for it.

I know someone brought up the price of cameras that use DPAF-- I'm sure this has a lot to do with the development costs of creating DPAF. Perhaps they could put it in cheaper cameras now because so many cameras have it? I'm sure the 1DX Mark II and 5D mark IV will pay off the DPAF development costs in no time and bring it down to even Rebel cameras, nevertheless mirrorless.


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## jebrady03 (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

Wake me when DPAF and a built-in EVF arrive. Then I'll consider re-joining the M ecosystem. Until thzzzzzzzz


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## Ozarker (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



naylor83 said:


> NorbR said:
> 
> 
> > Good.
> ...



One doesn't have to be an economics expert to understand that the economics of any camera line and the lines combined have the largest bearing on price, tech, and all other offerings. The goal is profit, and not just profit... maximizing profits and the long term growth of the company and market segment.

Now queue all the economics experts that don't understand the basic principles of business or economics. Queue especially those who would dare to call profit evil or excessive. : 

"I don't build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build." -- Ayn Rand


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## xps (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

I´d like to see an semi-pro M too. 
Look on the other brands. High quality with an Wow-effect. So why are we Canonians not allowed to say that "WOW" too when we use an M-cam??
Yes, the M-series sales well. It is an well designed cam for the "normal" point and shoot user. But you are limited if you want to do a little bit more. Why does Canon not compeed with Sony? Are they in fear, Sony will lough at their cam (exept ergonomy?


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## Talley (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



thetechhimself said:


> EF-S lineup has it's own "trinity" 10-18, 18-55, 55-250.
> EF has it's trinity, 11-24, 24-70, 70-200.
> 
> The EF-M does not.



How could you even say that? They have the 11-22, 18-55 and 55-200


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## okaro (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



thetechhimself said:


> I see a couple of other things happening eventually with the M lineup, when is the unknown. It hit me when I bought the SL1 and it's EF-S counterpart lenses... Which I may be returning shortly
> 
> EF-S lineup has it's own "trinity" 10-18, 18-55, 55-250.
> EF has it's trinity, 11-24, 24-70, 70-200.
> ...



It makes no sense to copy systems from one format to another. There is 11-22 mm, it is long enough to work as a general lens, not just as an extreme wide angle. With mirrorless it is good to travel light i.e. carry only 1-2 lenses.


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## transpo1 (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

Gee, it would be nice to have 4K video in a Canon mirrorless camera...if I had that, then I wouldn't need to buy a $3500 5DIV...oh, wait, right.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

I've been shooting with mirrorless last couple years. I found built-in EVF is very helpful. Would love to see this combo in near future - flip screen verticle & Horizontal position, joystick to move AF points and pop-up EVF


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## Alastair Norcross (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



thetechhimself said:


> Talley said:
> 
> 
> > thetechhimself said:
> ...


What is so special about a "gapless" continuity? The EF-M trinity has a slight overlap between the 11-22 and 18-55. Is there a problem with that? Neither small gaps nor small overlaps matter, unless you have OCD.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



thetechhimself said:


> Talley said:
> 
> 
> > thetechhimself said:
> ...



*gap* /ɡap/ _noun_ 2. an unfilled space or interval; a break in continuity.

Please explain how there's a gap in the 11-22, 18-55 and 55-200 range. ???


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## CaptureWhatYouSee (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



neuroanatomist said:


> thetechhimself said:
> 
> 
> > Talley said:
> ...



10-11 of course...


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## veng (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

DPAF or bust


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## Arctic-Winds (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

Finally some good news. I was beginning to despair that they'd be nothing coming soon(ish). Hopefully it'll come packaged with an inbuilt evf and decent focusing speed to make it a perfect secondary camera (for me anyway). FF isn't a dealbreaker and I don't think it will be for it's intended target audience.


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## jebrady03 (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



thetechhimself said:


> Talley said:
> 
> 
> > thetechhimself said:
> ...



Sony "crop factor" = 1.5x
Canon "crop factor" = 1.6x

10mm x 1.5 = 15mm
9mm x 1.6 = 14.4mm

About 2.75% difference. That's like a 100mm vs a 102.75mm. Not enough for as many words as you dedicated to it.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



thetechhimself said:


> You may recall back when we had only the 22, 11-22 and 18-55 we were all like, how many more times can we cover 22mm?



Who's this 'we' of whom you speak?

Consider 24mm...

11-24/4
16-35/2.8
16-35/4 IS
17-40/4
24-70/2.8
24-70/4 IS
24-105 IS
24/1.4
24/2.8 IS
24/3.5 TS-E

Is anyone complaining about the *10* current EF lenses covering 24mm, not to mention the additional *10* EF-S lenses covering 24mm (although admittedly there are some duplicate EF-S that differ by focus motor and/or IS)?


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## zim (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



freejay said:


> They should just put the 80D's technique into a G5X like body - maybe slightly bigger but with all the buttons and wheels + full articulating screen and an updated EVF.
> 
> What?
> 
> One can always dream...




Been saying the same thing since I first saw that camera. Having played with it for a few minutes the only thing I'd disagree with is 'slightly' bigger, honesty that thing is tiny, I'd be happy with twice as big all round!


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## H. Jones (Aug 22, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



zim said:


> freejay said:
> 
> 
> > They should just put the 80D's technique into a G5X like body - maybe slightly bigger but with all the buttons and wheels + full articulating screen and an updated EVF.
> ...



Give it more of a real grip and I'd be very happy. Combine the M3's grip with the G5X's body/EVF/LCD and let it swap lenses and that's a real contender there. Plus, the style is just awesome.


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## tcmatthews (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



thetechhimself said:


> jebrady03 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Yes it is expensive but it is a nice lens. I had a Canon STM EF-s 10-18 for a while and the Sony made it look broken when comparing image sharpness. At the time the EOS-m did not have a Ultra wide in the US and my old sigma was broken. I actual thing the sigma was sharper once you worked around the quirks. Just to see if it was the lens or me just noticing the stronger AA filter after extended use of my Nex6 I ended up testing the STM on my EOS-M, 60D, Rebel XS and my Nex6. It was ok stopped down and had best sharpness was on the Nex6 but the Sony lens was hands down sharper. But the Sony 10-18 has funy distortion that is correctable that may throw some people off. The Canon did not have this. From everything I have seen the EOS-M 11-22 is a better lens than the STM 10-18 but I do not know how much of that is the fact it was the only option last I checked. I sold the STM with my EOS M but I still use the Sony 10-18 on my A7II as a 14-16mm.


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



Schwingi said:


> EVF or bust.



Budget rig = EOS M10

Standard rig = EOS M3 --> soon to be EOS M5 (it would appear)

The rig most of us would love = EOS Mfancypants --> EOS M5 + DPAF + Integral EVF, hopefully with some purpose-built nano-USM lenses expressly for the EF-M mount.

Someone please call me when the third one arrives. Phone number is 1.800.FNOONEKNOWS

#Zzzzzzzzz

- A


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



H. Jones said:


> I would say the M3 chassis is basically the ideal mirrorless chassis for me. Tried one out at BH Photo, and although I could use a slightly bigger grip, it's extremely comfortable and usable for a camera of that size. I would totally be all-in if they released a full-frame M3 with the Canon DSLR software instead of being like a powershot. I would really love a mirrorless 35mm f/2 or f/1.4 on that. I wouldn't even buy any other lenses for it.



+1 (with a qualifier)

If you only need one lens -- why have a modular mount at all? 

I say that because I've been arguing that Canon needs a 'batting practice' *fixed lens FF mirrorless rig* that lets them nail form factor / ergonomics / controls / EVF / etc. before they make the major EF-(FF Mirrorless) un-undoable decisions. Follow the path of Leica Q (28mm f/1.7) or Sony RX1 platform (35mm f/2) but with 'Canon know-how', grip, feel, menus, intuitiveness, etc.

Further, going fixed lens unlocks some sweet options: bury the lens in the mount (as it were) to save overall thickness of the rig + lens, and you can drop a leaf shutter in there for a crazy 1/2000 sync speed like Sony did.

- A


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## Ozarker (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



thetechhimself said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > thetechhimself said:
> ...



Now we are all like, "Wow!" 

All implies everybody.


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## cnardo (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

From my vantage point, I rather have a new SL2 than a M5... The SL2 feels better in my hands and easier to operate. 
Anybody out there agree? Does anyone know when we can expect a SL2? Was suppose to be this year. ???


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## JPAZ (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

For those of us who got the old $199 special M1, every time I gather my gear to go, I look at my M with a couple of (actually very good) lenses plus the adapter for which the 40mm is a nice combo, and I look and look and look........Then I grab the DSLR and go. I just cannot see a very good niche for the M1, which made me forego the M2, M3, and now there will be a new M(4). It is smaller and the IQ of the M1 is pretty good but otherwise, it is limited for all but "still life" photos. I really want to have a decent mirrorless system. But, I can't see investing more in this line. 

Guess I will wait and see. But this would need to be exceptional for me to jump.


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## Etienne (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

To buy, I'll be looking for:

1. DPAF
2. DPAF with touch screen
3. Full swivel screen
4. Fix the sensor-based vignetting problem
5. Improved video quality
6..... did I mention DPAF?

Really want: Some small fast primes with IS


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



cnardo said:


> From my vantage point, I rather have a new SL2 than a M5... The SL2 feels better in my hands and easier to operate.
> Anybody out there agree? Does anyone know when we can expect a SL2? Was suppose to be this year. ???



Just curious with your SL1 vs. EOS M -- how much of that "better/easier" is due to:


An OVF's responsiveness
A chunkier grip
Rebel like controls and menus

In other words, the SL1 has a ton of 'SLR familiarity' going for it over the EOS M. What's the biggest of those three things you miss when using the EOS M?

- A


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## Woody (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

No DPAF, no touchscreen => no interest from me


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## Hjalmarg1 (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



Canon Rumors said:


> Lost in the madness that is all the <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/confirmation-of-upcoming-product-announcements/">new products over the next couple of weeks</a> is the EOS M. There will not be any EOS M announcements for Photokina, which I think is totally understandable. Nothing in the Canon lineup brings about as much hype as a new EOS 5D body.</p>
> <p>The good news is that we will see a new EOS M camera and a lens announced in 2016. I suspect we’ll see it before CES 2017 which starts on January 5, 2017 in Las Vegas.</p>
> <p><strong>What we know about the coming EOS M:</strong></p>
> <ul>
> ...


Canon, please stop releasing products that cannot compete in the market. Existing M series line-up cannot match what sony a6300 or Fuji X-T2/T10 can deliver. Don't waste your time in undermarket products


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## H. Jones (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



ahsanford said:


> H. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > I would say the M3 chassis is basically the ideal mirrorless chassis for me. Tried one out at BH Photo, and although I could use a slightly bigger grip, it's extremely comfortable and usable for a camera of that size. I would totally be all-in if they released a full-frame M3 with the Canon DSLR software instead of being like a powershot. I would really love a mirrorless 35mm f/2 or f/1.4 on that. I wouldn't even buy any other lenses for it.
> ...



I would totally buy a fixed lens with a full frame 35mm! I'd love it.

Just to clarify, I would enjoy a mirrorless due to the ability to mount my other lenses. It would be a worthwhile business investment for me to have a back-up full frame camera that can mount the lenses I need to do my job if my 1D and 5D both end up stolen. I would never use any lens but a 35mm on a mirrorless for casual use, but I could justify the purchase more if it could serve as a full-time back up. There's a lot in my job I can only do with my 70-200mm, especially when police lines are far from the actual scene, so job-wise having only a 35mm wouldn't be as much of a back-up for me.

My main reason for wanting a full frame mirrorless-style camera is for casual/vacation use though.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



Hjalmarg1 said:


> Canon, please stop releasing products that cannot compete in the market.



canon can't hear you after taking mirrorless third overall in domestic marketshare over panasonic, and over shipping enough M3 and M10's into Asia to have a nearly a 60% marketshare in ILC's for the second quarter this year.

obviously canon is competing, they just see the market a little differently than you.


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



Hjalmarg1 said:


> Canon, please stop releasing products that cannot compete in the portion of the market that I care about. Existing M series line-up cannot match what sony a6300 or Fuji X-T2/T10 can deliver. Don't waste your time in undermarket products that I have no interest in buying.



There you go. Now you're good. 

But I think you know where I'm going with this. In the mirrorless market, Canon cares less about having the most responsive, best handling, slickest feature set, fastest AF, (any) integral EVF, etc. because they'd rather dominate the low end of the market right now. And can you blame them? That's where the unit sales are.

- A


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## Woody (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



rrcphoto said:


> canon can't hear you after taking mirrorless third overall in domestic marketshare over panasonic, and over shipping enough M3 and M10's into Asia to have a nearly a 60% marketshare in ILC's for the second quarter this year.



Do you have a link for this? Thanks


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## cellomaster27 (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



ahsanford said:


> cnardo said:
> 
> 
> > From my vantage point, I rather have a new SL2 than a M5... The SL2 feels better in my hands and easier to operate.
> ...



I'm gonna butt in here. I definitely feel that the eos m is so slow to switch up settings with the limited buttons and dials. You have to rely so much on the touchscreen it's almost pointless imo. My hands gets tired soon from the awkward grip of the camera itself... although the SL1 isn't the most comfortable either: its just light. Plus, I tend to use larger and much heavier lenses than the camera itself.. I know that's probably not what it's meant for but still. and FOCUS SPEED. no comparison. period. sometimes, its so bright out that I can't really see the screen anyways. great system for <$200 (model 1) but you are getting what you pay for in terms of functionality. Stills... like still stills with focus set and turned to manual or something.. works fantastically. :


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## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



Woody said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > canon can't hear you after taking mirrorless third overall in domestic marketshare over panasonic, and over shipping enough M3 and M10's into Asia to have a nearly a 60% marketshare in ILC's for the second quarter this year.
> ...



The math is here.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=30513.0


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## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

"slightly upmarket" ... lol
stupid, Canon!

what's needed is so simple, it almost hutts: stick those 80D innards from DP-AF sensor to LP-E6N battery to full EOS firmware plus the G5X viewfinder into an M3-sized body with just a bit chunkier grip, sell it for $/€ 999, lean bak and watch as sales if EF-M lenses go through the roof and pop open vhampagne bottles every subsequent quarter, when CIPA nunbers show how Fuji and Sony APS-C sales wither away.

economics are simple. give customers the products they want and rake in the cash.


----------



## aa_angus (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*

Pardon me if this has already been answered, by why don't Canon make a proper mirrorless body? Like others, i would love to have a canon mirrorless as a backup to my 5D..but there is no option available. Why can't they manufacture a real competing mirrorless camera? Having a 6d(2) as a backup is just so boring when you already shoot with a 5.


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



aa_angus said:


> Pardon me if this has already been answered, by why don't Canon make a proper mirrorless body? Like others, i would love to have a canon mirrorless as a backup to my 5D..but there is no option available. Why can't they manufacture a real competing mirrorless camera?
> ...



sorry mate, but "you are the ONLY ONE who wants a full-featured, compact mirrorless camera ... so Canon will NOT build one for you" ... or so the CanonFanBoy-Neuroconomists say. :


----------



## aa_angus (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



AvTvM said:


> aa_angus said:
> 
> 
> > Pardon me if this has already been answered, by why don't Canon make a proper mirrorless body? Like others, i would love to have a canon mirrorless as a backup to my 5D..but there is no option available. Why can't they manufacture a real competing mirrorless camera?
> ...



You wouldn't be tempted by a fully featured, full frame canon mirrorless?


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



aa_angus said:


> Pardon me if this has already been answered, by why don't Canon make a proper mirrorless body? Like others, i would love to have a canon mirrorless as a backup to my 5D..but there is no option available. Why can't they manufacture a real competing mirrorless camera? Having a 6d(2) as a backup is just so boring when you already shoot with a 5.



Because the prosumer market is much smaller than the consumer market. This is also true for DSLRs but there Canon has the dominant market position, decades of engineering and marketing experience, established manufacturing, logistics, and marketing pipelines... Yes, much of that is transferrable to mirrorless, but coming up with a major new product line in a not-very-large and very competitive market is not exactly an immediately persuasive value proposition.

FWIW, my educated guesstimate is that for every step upwards on the product ladder your target market shrinks by approximately an order of magnitude.


----------



## Woody (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



rrcphoto said:


> The math is here.
> http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=30513.0



Thanks.

From a broader perspective, Sony was badly affected by the Kyushu earthquake in Apr 2016. Their shipment numbers in the second and third quarters (Apr-Sep 2-16) will be affected. That is also why Canon market share is able to jump from ~ 40 to 60% percent between 1st and 2nd quarter this year. It is very unfortunate but true.


----------



## mustafa (Aug 23, 2016)

*Homophone Corner*



Queue the Canon economics experts who can explain why it all made perfect financial sense.
[/quote]


Now queue all the economics experts that don't understand the basic principles of business or economics. Queue especially those who would dare to call profit evil or excessive. : 
[/quote]

I think you may mean 'cue'.


----------



## MintChocs (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



cnardo said:


> From my vantage point, I rather have a new SL2 than a M5... The SL2 feels better in my hands and easier to operate.
> Anybody out there agree? Does anyone know when we can expect a SL2? Was suppose to be this year. ???


Totally agree but I have lost hope in there being a SL2.


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



aa_angus said:


> You wouldn't be tempted by a fully featured, full frame canon mirrorless?



Me? I am more than tempted! In fact I am the ONLY OTHER person on earth - according to CanonFanBoy Neuronomics - who would be interested in and BUY one or all of the following products, if stupid Canon would only make and sell 'em ... 

1. Canon EOS M5 [APS_C mirrorless ILC] 
with functionality+capabilities exactly like 80D minus mirror, plus built-in EVF, size similar to M3, priced at USD/€ 1000 

2. Canon EOS X1 [FF mirrorless ILC]
capabilities exactly like 5D IV minus mirror, sized like Sony A7/R II, priced not higher than equivalent Sony A# model ... 
plus a lineup of optically very good, yet affordable and "as compact as possible" native lenses ... positioned exactly like EF-M lenses, only for FF image circle. 

3. Canon "RX1" [FF compact with 3x zoom]
Ultra-compact mirrorless FF cam with 5D4 DP-AF sensor and an excellent Canon 24-70mm/2.8 L IS blue-goo zoom up front (no lens mount), priced at USD/€ 2000 

I could also see "video-enhanced" variations for each of these with highest-end 4k 120fps 4:4:4 video, zebras, stripes, spots, mic jacks all over, S-log, C-log ... and 100 other shenanigans ... at a modest 100% surcharge. ;D 
Personally I would take the "stills-enhanced" version. 

But, stupid Canon does not make any of these ...yet. By the time they finally do, I will be happily using a Sony A9 + Canon EF glass. 

Stupid, Canon!


----------



## Ozarker (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: Homophone Corner*



mustafa said:


> Queue the Canon economics experts who can explain why it all made perfect financial sense.




Now cue all the economics experts that don't understand the basic principles of business or economics. Cue especially those who would dare to call profit evil or excessive. : 
[/quote]

I think you may mean 'cue'.
[/quote]

You are correct. Thank you.


----------



## Ozarker (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



ahsanford said:


> Hjalmarg1 said:
> 
> 
> > Canon, please stop releasing products that cannot compete in the portion of the market that I care about. Existing M series line-up cannot match what sony a6300 or Fuji X-T2/T10 can deliver. Don't waste your time in undermarket products that I have no interest in buying.
> ...



Bingo!


----------



## Ozarker (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



AvTvM said:


> "slightly upmarket" ... lol
> stupid, Canon!
> 
> what's needed is so simple, it almost hutts: stick those 80D innards from DP-AF sensor to LP-E6N battery to full EOS firmware plus the G5X viewfinder into an M3-sized body with just a bit chunkier grip, sell it for $/€ 999, lean bak and watch as sales if EF-M lenses go through the roof and pop open vhampagne bottles every subsequent quarter, when CIPA nunbers show how Fuji and Sony APS-C sales wither away.
> ...



Excuse me miss, your fetish is showing.  You are a very smart guy AvTvM. I just wish you would take your genius and make the product you speak of yourself. Then you wouldn't have to wait for "Stupid Canon".

I've got a challenge for you: When you can source the raw materials and manufacture every part of a pencil that will compete on the mass market with Ticonderoga I'll admit that Canon is stupid and send you all my gear.

Go find the rubber trees and process it into the material to make the erasers, develop the paint, discover how to make the metal that holds the eraser, go mine the graphite, do all these things and then manufacture a competitive pencil for the mass market. Don't forget top develop the packaging and the inks to print upon it. Don't forget to manufacture the machines to do the pencil manufacturing.

However, I think the exercise will prove that you cannot even do that. Men of ability are mostly envied and attacked by men who just can't compete... physically or intellectually.

You name a camera you want and even think you know what it should sell for to make a profit. Problem is, you know absolutely nothing about manufacturing a pencil (You could never do it. Not in your whole lifetime), much less a camera.

Rake in the cash? How much cash do you rake in wise one? Not from somebody else's ideas and products... but from what you've developed yourself. Nothing.


----------



## Ozarker (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



AvTvM said:


> aa_angus said:
> 
> 
> > Pardon me if this has already been answered, by why don't Canon make a proper mirrorless body? Like others, i would love to have a canon mirrorless as a backup to my 5D..but there is no option available. Why can't they manufacture a real competing mirrorless camera?
> ...



Glad to see you are finally starting to understand. Just go buy a Sony. Satisfy your fetish... just make sure you lock the door when you do. :


----------



## DomTomLondon (Aug 23, 2016)

I love my 5D3 and Canon lenses, but when I wanted a small, light, mirrorless walk around camera for everyday street and portrait shooting I didn't see anything interesting in the Canon department. Instead I went for a used Fuji XE1, an old 24mm and 40mm manual focus prime combo from Olympus and Voigtlander and I'm very happy with the kit.

The 5D3 is gathering dust on the shelf....


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

hehehe, Canon FanBoy. I am not in the pencil business. And i am no camera maker. Canon is. They have to deliver, what I and many others want. Or we go and buy elsewhere. Economics are fairly simple. And Canon is fairly stupid as far as their mirrorless "strategy" goes ...


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

DomTomLondon said:


> I love my 5D3 and Canon lenses, but when I wanted a small, light, mirrorless walk around camera for everyday street and portrait shooting I didn't see anything interesting in the Canon department.
> ...



According to CanonFanBoy-Neuronomics, this is just not possible! You would already be the third person here to be interested in a capable, compact, affordable mirrorless Canon camera system. But there is only ONE person on earth who wants such a camera - according to Neurocomics - and that would be me. ;D



DomTomLondon said:


> The 5D3 is gathering dust on the shelf....


same here ... except that I keep it in a dustproof container.


----------



## crashpc (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



Sharlin said:


> aa_angus said:
> 
> 
> > Pardon me if this has already been answered, by why don't Canon make a proper mirrorless body? Like others, i would love to have a canon mirrorless as a backup to my 5D..but there is no option available. Why can't they manufacture a real competing mirrorless camera? Having a 6d(2) as a backup is just so boring when you already shoot with a 5.
> ...


As for potential Canon customer, it doesn't work for me. Not even DSLS are that advanced and refined trough experiwnce, that I would buy it. They're simply not competitive enaugh for me. So I'm literally sitting here with my Nikon FX, waiting for Canon to do something, so I could buy some awesome product from them.

Count me as another person waiting for advanced Canon MILC. Now we're four. That is something... ;-)


----------



## tomsop (Aug 23, 2016)

*prepare for disappointment*

After the dpreview of the M3 the obvious question for the rumor source would be, does m5 have dpaf? The word 'slight' improvement meant no. If the specs offered half of what people want the word 'revolutionary' or similar wording would have been used. The clues are all in what was actually said and not said.


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: prepare for disappointment*



tomsop said:


> After the dpreview of the M3 the obvious question for the rumor source would be, does m5 have dpaf? The word 'slight' improvement meant no. If the specs offered half of what people want the word 'revolutionary' or similar wording would have been used. The clues are all in what was actually said and not said.



it is quite clear what's going to come. Unfortunately. M3 Mk. II ... in unicorn-pink, funky-blue and picachu-yellow. No problem at all, that Canon does suck up to their japanese school girl customers and to brand-naive "happy snappers". All I am asking is that they *also* do provide something decent to their customers who are willing to spend money on cameras *AND* lenses. They got a line-up of EF-M lenses. Japanese schoolgirls will not buy them, since they are not available in unicorn-pink. It is *us* folks, who would buy them ... if there was a good enough camera for them. Go figure!

So stupid, Canon!


----------



## JMKE (Aug 23, 2016)

One of the things i would like to see (and missing on the M3) is the support for a cable remote/trigger.
So it would be usable for timelapse stuff.

And a bit faster focusing would be nice.


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

JMKE said:


> One of the things i would like to see (and missing on the M3) is the support for a cable remote/trigger.
> So it would be usable for timelapse stuff.



M3 has WiFi ... aren't there Wifi-wireless triggers with fully programmable intervalometer function available?


----------



## d (Aug 23, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> JMKE said:
> 
> 
> > One of the things i would like to see (and missing on the M3) is the support for a cable remote/trigger.
> ...



It chews though batteries quickly enough already without being wirelessly tethered to a remote app. You'd be lucky to capture 200 shots in your timelapse before the battery needed changing, I'd say.

Also, you can add me to the list of people waiting for Canon to make a proper M-series mirrorless body. I bought the M3 second-hand several months ago, and it's one of the most frustrating bodies I've used. Which is a pity, as a couple of the lenses are really nice, and it's handy being able to mount my EF and EF-S lenses onto it as well.


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 23, 2016)

JMKE said:


> One of the things i would like to see (and missing on the M3) is the support for a cable remote/trigger.
> So it would be usable for timelapse stuff.
> 
> And a bit faster focusing would be nice.



Depending on what that "slightly upmarket" means the M5 could have a builtin interval timer like the 80D and other recent Canon DSLRs.


----------



## asl (Aug 23, 2016)

Would like DR like 80d or better.. and 4K and if possible DPAF, but is seems unlikely ?
The main reason i would buy one is that the 11-22mm lens looks impressive, always want one for portable/hiking/landscape setup and also have it be compatible with bigger lenses.
But never found the M cameras to be so tempting. I find 4K nice to have on my phone (can get some ok freeze frames from it also), so buying a camera without it seems backwards to day.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> According to CanonFanBoy-Neuronomics, this is just not possible! You would already be the third person here to be interested in a capable, compact, affordable mirrorless Canon camera system. But there is only ONE person on earth who wants such a camera - according to Neurocomics - and that would be me. ;D



Are you even aware that your excessive hyperbole, blatant misrepresentation, and constant complaining make you sound like a foolish, petulant child? 




crashpc said:


> Count me as another person waiting for advanced Canon MILC. Now we're four.



Lol. 

I would think anyone with a modicum of intelligence can grasp that the membership of this forum is not representative of Canon's overall market demographic. Rather, we are a tiny and self-selected minority of users, heavily skewed toward the higher end of the gear spectrum. For example, the two most popular topics on this forum are 'Show your bird portraits' (usually meaning long, expensive lenses) and ''Anything shot with a 1D X'. Topics about 5-series camera rumors are prevalent and run to dozens (or hundreds) of posts, topics about xxxD/Rebel camera rumors wither on the vine, if they're even started. 

In the global ILC market, mirrorless is 20-25%. Looking at post counts here, interest in mirrorless is 10-12% of the CR member base. So, in the tiny CR microcosm of higher-end users – arguably those who'd be most interested in an 'enthusiast EOS M', there's very little interest in mirrorless, and much less interest in a high-end prosumer M. 

The market demographic and economic arguments against Canon producing such a camera in the current state of the global ILC market are strong and quite clear, to anyone with the wit to comprehend them. That shouldn't stop anyone from expressing their wishes, although doing so here on this forum is little more than pissing into the wind. 




crashpc said:


> Now we're four. That is something... ;-)



Indeed – four little droplets being blown around in the breeze before falling into the ocean.


----------



## Etienne (Aug 23, 2016)

asl said:


> Would like DR like 80d or better.. and 4K and if possible DPAF, but is seems unlikely ?
> The main reason i would buy one is that the 11-22mm lens looks impressive, always want one for portable/hiking/landscape setup and also have it be compatible with bigger lenses.
> But never found the M cameras to be so tempting. I find 4K nice to have on my phone (can get some ok freeze frames from it also), so buying a camera without it seems backwards to day.


I have the M3 and the 11-22 (sold my original M). The 11-22 is a brilliant little lens, and with IS the handheld video is almost like it's on a tripod. It is tiny even with the 11-22 on it, and the 22mm f/2 fits anywhere for when the light goes low. The M3 system has it's faults, but I bought the whole system including both lenses, removable viewfinder, and EF-M to EF adapter cost me less than $1000. The adapter with the 35mm f/2 IS works brilliantly on the EOS-M3 for both photos and videos. I also like the M3 with the 100mm f/2.8L IS ... the tilt touchscreen really helps getting awkward macro shots quickly, and the 1.6x crop gives even better macro performance... nearly equivalent to cropping a macro shot from the 5DS system
4K and touchscreen DPAF would make an M5 irresistible for me.


----------



## Orangutan (Aug 23, 2016)

dilbert said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > DomTomLondon said:
> ...



There are probably many who would buy it, but that's not good enough: it has to be more profitable than other products they could choose to put R&D money into.


----------



## JMKE (Aug 23, 2016)

d said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > JMKE said:
> ...



Exactly, the battery drain. Plus for the use of triggertrap kinda stuff it would be nice as well.
It just adds to the usability. Lets wait and see what Canon brings to the table.


----------



## Etienne (Aug 23, 2016)

JMKE said:


> d said:
> 
> 
> > AvTvM said:
> ...


I have the plug-in power adapter for the EOS-M3, and have used it for hours of video at a time. You do have to mind the video time limit, and stop/start it, but for intervalometers it would continue until the card is full


----------



## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2016)

Sony has been trying now since they took over from Minolta to gain traction in the market.

first they went all in with DSLR's.. didn't work
then they went all in with DSLT's .. their marketshare "LEAPED" to 14%... 
then they went all in with E mount APS-C.. their marketshare dumped... 
then they went all in with E mount full frame.. their marketshare still languishes.

as of last year, Sony's marketshare was 14%. they had higher or just has high with DSLR's.
however, Sony's current 14% is based upon "value" which includes lenses, accessories, and camera bodies. LOL. so it's in reality even lower than this number.

Why on earth would canon follow the path of sony ... which is obviously a failed business model?

I would love a more advanced camera from Canon .. such as a SL1 like full frame mirrorless. However I can appreciate that the market simply isn't there.

It blows because all we will get is rebel like cameras in mirrorless but if you want better, vote with your feet and get something else, because it's probably not going to happen for a long time.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> Why on earth would canon follow the path of sony ... which is obviously a failed business model?



They would...if they were STUPID.


----------



## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Why on earth would canon follow the path of sony ... which is obviously a failed business model?
> ...



indeed. Olympus with all they have done, and even flooding the market with cheap E-PL's .. ONLY ships out 520K units a year.

That WAS your #2 vendor in mirrorless. a half a million units. that's all folks.


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

I still fail to see, what speaks against Canon making a worthwhile EOS M5 with extremely little R&D efort involved, just by putting 80D innards minus mirror plus EVF [e.g. G5X] into it, instead of launching yet another subpar, underspecced, lacklustre, embarassing, fun-killing piece of sh*t. 

While it may not save Canon on its own, it certainly would not bankrupt them either, if it failed and only myself and 3 others on this forum would pick it up. Right?


----------



## ashmadux (Aug 23, 2016)

AFAIC All they need to do is put back the m1 touch interface/firmware (Ui speed + AF updates of course), change that dreadful one movement screen to a full articulating version (g5), and design it in a way that it can have a nice grip like my m1 does (weight to counter the shakes). Lastly, Batteries are a huge issue, especially since no one made 3rd party ones. I have 4 opteka batteries for the m1 that last way longer than the canon garbage.

I've 'survived' for sooo long with no EVF on my m1, and it a bunch of whining on forums doesn't affect that one bit  The way it rains batteries makes it a non starter in the field.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



AvTvM said:


> In fact I am the ONLY OTHER person on earth - according to CanonFanBoy Neuronomics - who would be interested in and BUY one or all of the following products, if stupid Canon would only make and sell 'em ...
> 
> 1. Canon EOS M5 [APS_C mirrorless ILC]
> with functionality+capabilities exactly like 80D minus mirror, plus built-in EVF, size similar to M3, priced at USD/€ 1000
> ...



More predictions? Let's consult the wayback machine... 



lintoni said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Hehe, over the next few years you will think a lot about my prediction on how the transition to mirrorless cams will happen at Canon.
> ...



Nearly two years later, and *lintoni*'s prediction was spot-on.




AvTvM said:


> I still fail
> 
> Right?



Right!


----------



## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> I still fail to see, what speaks against Canon making a worthwhile EOS M5 with extremely little R&D efort involved, just by putting 80D innards minus mirror plus EVF [e.g. G5X] into it, instead of launching yet another subpar, underspecced, lacklustre, embarassing, fun-killing piece of sh*t.
> 
> While it may not save Canon on its own, it certainly would not bankrupt them either, if it failed and only myself and 3 others on this forum would pick it up. Right?



because maybe they don't see the market for it?

if you go full out, canon has alot of work to do to get battery management under wraps.

80D innards by themselves and an EVF would be sub 150 shots on a LP-17 battery, as it's even 300 on a LP-6N battery.

so yeah.. little cost?

DPAF is heavy on compute power.. you have to calculate out phase difference from ~20 million AF points.

then you have if DPAF would work on a short registration distance mount - all the microlens designs I've seen from canon, none of them have been discussing DPAF sensors. which adds in it's own set of problems.

to do it all right, canon has to make an entirely different sensor which is only for mirrorless.

they also have to do it with the proper microlenses, and also with preferably with a BSI sensor to remove more of the problem of vignetting.

they also have to completely jump up and fix the inefficiencies in DiGiC that are consuming so much battery life against their peers.


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

hehe, Neurocomics at work. Whenever you are out of argjuments, you start insulting and attacking the person. But we know you and your style. And let me tell you, I find it much more unpleasant than you may find my "petulant whining". 

The 3 cameras I suggested, are ides or call them *demands* if you prefer. Unfortunately they are no *prediction*, since I know damn well, stupid Canon will not make them.


----------



## cnardo (Aug 23, 2016)

*Re: There Will Be a New EOS M Camera Coming in 2016*



ahsanford said:


> cnardo said:
> 
> 
> > From my vantage point, I rather have a new SL2 than a M5... The SL2 feels better in my hands and easier to operate.
> ...



The OVF is just more natural after 40+ years of shooting with Canon. The chunkier grip fits my hands so much better and with a lens on the body... the balance is so much better... I use a hand grip a lot....plus a strap....so much better with the SL1 plus lens. The controls are slight bigger and more familiar as you say. I like that. One thing I do like. however, is the M3 with the 22mm Pancake lens.... great for indoor , low light and not as attention getting


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

Canon EF-M 11-22 is king of the ultrawide hill. If it were a Fuji, it would cost north of 1200 USD. If it were a Sony it would be called Zeiss and cost north of 2000. lol. 

EF-S 10-18 is optically also very good, but not equal.

http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EF-M-11-22mm-F4-56-IS-STM-versus-Canon-EF-S-10-18mm-F45-56-IS-STM__1170_0_1368_0

http://kenrockwell.com/canon/eos-m/11-22mm.htm


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> hehe, Neurocomics at work. Whenever you are out of argjuments,



The arguments stand on their own. You simply fail to accept reality.


----------



## ritholtz (Aug 23, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> Canon EF-M 11-22 is king of the ultrawide hill. If it were a Fuji, it would cost north of 1200 USD. If it were a Sony it would be called Zeiss and cost north of 2000. lol.
> 
> EF-S 10-18 is optically also very good, but not equal.
> 
> ...


That EF-M lens is really nice. Your comparison with Zeisis and Fuji is another reason to wait patiently for Canon to deliver mirrorless 80d body. Sony can't even upgrade their crap crop kit lens with expensive a6300 release.


----------



## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2016)

ritholtz said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Canon EF-M 11-22 is king of the ultrawide hill. If it were a Fuji, it would cost north of 1200 USD. If it were a Sony it would be called Zeiss and cost north of 2000. lol.
> ...



expect a G7X Mark II like M5.


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 23, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> expect a G7X Mark II like M5.



hmm, that would be EOS M10 Mk. II (no EVF)


----------



## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> While it may not save Canon on its own, it certainly would not bankrupt them either, if it failed and only myself and 3 others on this forum would pick it up. Right?



You realize you are making our point for us, right? Yes, Canon could make that rig, but they feel there's more profit elsewhere. 

I'm just surprised how focused they are on the Rebel-ish end of things -- this will be the _5th_ EOS M body (right?) and they still haven't left the photography little league yet. I would have thought by the time a 5th body came out, at least one would be in that 70D/80D level of functionality by now.

- A


----------



## LoneRider (Aug 23, 2016)

Interesting discussion.

One thing that I have yet to see is shelf space. There is only soo much shelf space Canon is going to get in the Best Buy's of the world. If they introduce another camera, which one do they pull??

As well, it would see to me, a M5 with DPAF, remote shutter and all, would convert 80D and EF[-S] lens purchases over to M5 and EF-M lens purchases.

If Canon is going to limit 5Div to protect 1DXii sales, certainly they will limit M series cameras to protect the 80D

Just my $0.02.


----------



## Tangent (Aug 23, 2016)

What I want is PDAF, a remote jack, and the double-sided lens design from the recent patent for improved sensor performance at the edges.

Also desired: a stronger onboard flash, better battery life.

I agree with what others have said that an onboard intervalometer would lessen the need for a remote switch jack. But I like shooting with a remote, and with a M setup and a travel tripod it would be good to be able to use one.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> I'm just surprised how focused they are on the Rebel-ish end of things -- this will be the _5th_ EOS M body (right?) and they still haven't left the photography little league yet. I would have thought by the time a 5th body came out, at least one would be in that 70D/80D level of functionality by now.



Well, since the double-A and triple-A ball games aren't popular enough to be network-televised, maybe it's just not worth Canon's effort to field a team.


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## 1kind (Aug 23, 2016)

So it seems everyone wants DPAF, built-in EVF and 80D specs (APS-C, 24MP)


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## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2016)

1kind said:


> So it seems everyone wants DPAF, built-in EVF and 80D specs (APS-C, 24MP)



except "everyone" in here. Isn't' the market.


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## Sporgon (Aug 23, 2016)

I wonder how many of the guys insisting on built in EVF have tried the detachable one. It's actually really neat as it can be tilted up 90 degrees, so you can look straight down, or anywhere in-between. Also it's in the middle of the camera in line with the lens and is very comfortable. I found the pop-up on the Sony horrible to hold and view being right off to the side of the camera. You then have the option of removing it and making the camera pocketable with the pancake lens.

The downside is that you can't use a decent flash with the EVF in place, and I have found that to be a problem occasionally. Also you have to buy the viewfinder with the M3 as a kit or it is too expensive, but when bought as a kit the Canon smokes the competition in terms of value for money.

DPAF would be great but I agree with rrpphoto; it may be the dslr flange distance based DPAF does;t work too well on the much shorter mirror less distance.


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2016)

Sporgon said:


> I wonder how many of the guys insisting on built in EVF have tried the detachable one. It's actually really neat as it can be tilted up 90 degrees, so you can look straight down, or anywhere in-between.



Have not tried it, in fact I've not bought into EOS-M for three reasons, and no integral EVF is one of them. If I will use a VF 99% of the time, I don't want it to be a modular component. Further, using it consumes your hotshoe, right? Pass.

Just curious, I keep trying to find AF speed and EVF lag comparisons amongst the current crop of APS-C and m43 mirrorless rigs and can never find Canon in them (andthey often are dated or only have 2-3 models compared). 

Just curious: how responsive is the AF for EOS M vs other brands, and how laggy is that EVF?

- A


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## Sporgon (Aug 23, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Sporgon said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how many of the guys insisting on built in EVF have tried the detachable one. It's actually really neat as it can be tilted up 90 degrees, so you can look straight down, or anywhere in-between.
> ...



For most GP uses the Canon EVF is basically lag free, but I'm sure it would begin to fail if you were shooting fast sports. But it is an EVF. It's so refreshing to look through a good dslr again ! 

Regarding the AF, again for GP use its pretty snappy and accurate - within the limitations of the over-sized AF area. It's not good at tracking something coming towards you fast, unless that something happens to suit the over-sized AF zone, then it can happily keep focus on a horse cantering towards you at say 15 to 20 mph. 

It's actually not a bad camera for many people, but it's not the sort that Reviewers are going to enjoy testing. 

Also I might add, from my point of view I think the 24 MP is too high for the sort of market this camera is aimed at, which I guess is reasonably casual shooting. I find I have to have the camera rock steady, or use a very fast shutter speed to get the IQ that I want. Then, with a good lens it's pretty good. I found the 16 MP crop cameras that I have used to be much better in that regard. But then I guess that's progress.


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2016)

Sporgon said:


> Also I might add, from my point of view I think the 24 MP is too high for the sort of market this camera is aimed at, which I guess is reasonably casual shooting. I find I have to have the camera rock steady, or use a very fast shutter speed to get the IQ that I want. Then, with a good lens it's pretty good. I found the 16 MP crop cameras that I have used to be much better in that regard. But then I guess that's progress.



Thanks for a great reply. Really helpful, thanks.

I will slightly disagree on the point above -- one would think it needs to outresolve a cell phone to market itself well to the social media crowd, but I could be wrong.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Aug 23, 2016)

Sporgon said:


> I wonder how many of the guys insisting on built in EVF have tried the detachable one. It's actually really neat as it can be tilted up 90 degrees, so you can look straight down, or anywhere in-between. Also it's in the middle of the camera in line with the lens and is very comfortable. I found the pop-up on the Sony horrible to hold and view being right off to the side of the camera. You then have the option of removing it and making the camera pocketable with the pancake lens.
> 
> The downside is that you can't use a decent flash with the EVF in place, and I have found that to be a problem occasionally. Also you have to buy the viewfinder with the M3 as a kit or it is too expensive, but when bought as a kit the Canon smokes the competition in terms of value for money.
> 
> DPAF would be great but I agree with rrpphoto; it may be the dslr flange distance based DPAF does;t work too well on the much shorter mirror less distance.



I really like the articulating EVF. I find I use it more on a tilt then I do straight down. on such a small camera, having a fixed EVF is just freaking awkward.


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## ahsanford (Aug 23, 2016)

rrcphoto said:


> I really like the articulating EVF. I find I use it more on a tilt then I do straight down. on such a small camera, having a fixed EVF is just freaking awkward.



Slightly OT, but on the comment of a tilting VF, I saw this hack of an older Powershot N to fashion a modern day waist-level 'faux TLR' rig and thought it was clever:

http://www.diyphotography.net/spoil-point-shoot-making-waist-level-shooter/

Okay. Back on topic, sorry. 

- A


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## rrcphoto (Aug 24, 2016)

thetechhimself said:


> 1kind said:
> 
> 
> > So it seems everyone wants DPAF, built-in EVF and 80D specs (APS-C, 24MP)
> ...



another thing to consider.

*IF* Canon considers the SIZE of the camera important. (there is a good indication they do, since they mention all the time about the size and weight of it.. especially in Japan / Asia) then the EVF is probably a no go.

Consider that it's impossible for canon to add an EVF into that camera without:

a) changing the LCD down to a 16:9 LCD (which would suck some raging feverish monkey nuts)

b) significantly increase the height and/or width of the camera.

c) drop the flash.

so canon would have to increase the size to somewhere around the same as an X-E2 to maintain the EVF, 4:3 screen and flash.







*if* canon does surmise that they feel they need to keep their MILC's small .. I can't see it.


the M3's closest competitors in terms of size is really the X-A2 and the A5100 as far as current cameras.

Neither one of them have EVF's .. hell neither of them even have an EXTERNAL EVF option.


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## Alastair Norcross (Aug 24, 2016)

DomTomLondon said:


> I love my 5D3 and Canon lenses, but when I wanted a small, light, mirrorless walk around camera for everyday street and portrait shooting I didn't see anything interesting in the Canon department. Instead I went for a used Fuji XE1, an old 24mm and 40mm manual focus prime combo from Olympus and Voigtlander and I'm very happy with the kit.
> 
> The 5D3 is gathering dust on the shelf....


Actually, even the original M is a small, light, mirrorless walk around camera for everyday street and portrait shooting. It's very good at that. The 22 F2 is excellent, as is the 50 F1.8 STM or 40 F2.8 pancake on an adapter. The original M isn't very good for fast action shooting (nor are any of the other Ms, apparently, though I haven't tried them). I have never had any trouble getting excellent street and portrait (and landscape) shots with my M. I have no idea why anyone else would have trouble either, unless they simply don't know how to use the camera.


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## AvTvM (Aug 24, 2016)

Alastair Norcross said:


> Actually, even the original M is a small, light, mirrorless walk around camera for everyday street and portrait shooting. It's very good at that. The 22 F2 is excellent, as is the 50 F1.8 STM or 40 F2.8 pancake on an adapter. The original M isn't very good for fast action shooting (nor are any of the other Ms, apparently, though I haven't tried them). I have never had any trouble getting excellent street and portrait (and landscape) shots with my M. I have no idea why anyone else would have trouble either, unless they simply don't know how to use the camera.



I agree with most you say ... my M (1st gen) has become my main camera, 5D3 sits in pelicase in closet most of the time. However, the EOS M AF system is pathetic and limiting in everyday use, even with modestly moving subjects, especuially combined with lack of a viewfinder. If one is happy with it (or M3 for that matter) it just means you have never tried a really decent mirrorless camera like A6000/A63000 or Fuji XT-1 or Oly M5 ...


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## pwp (Aug 24, 2016)

DPAF & EVF would kick a winning goal for Canon with the M5. 

But for a lot of the EVF grumblers, just get an SL1. All the EF-S options and it's just TINY! 

-pw


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## tomsop (Aug 24, 2016)

Maybe I am trying too hard to interpret what was really rumored but the word "slight' to me means no DPAF and no 80d in an eos-m body. I know we may hear more detail in the weeks to come. Right now the word 'slight' is keeping expectations at a reasonable level - which means get ready to be disappointed yet again.


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## AvTvM (Aug 24, 2016)

tomsop said:


> Maybe I am trying too hard to interpret what was really rumored but the word "slight' to me means no DPAF and no 80d in an eos-m body. I know we may hear more detail in the weeks to come. Right now the word 'slight' is keeping expectations at a reasonable level - which means get ready to be disappointed yet again.



exactly. most of us have taken notice of that not very subtle undertone. i do expect "no built-in EVF" ... "no kick-ass DP-AF" ... and overall functionality "crippled down to rebel class at best, but maybe this time no longer to powershot standards (firmware)".

it is that bleak outlook that *makes me go berser* after waiting for a "worthwhile, functionally fully competitive" EOS M body for many years.


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## Ebrahim Saadawi (Aug 24, 2016)

This complete speculation from my part but I strongly believe the next Eos M sucessor (whatever name it takes, m5) is going to be: 



1- 24.2 megapixel APS-C (80D one)

2 -Dual Pixel Auto focus system 

3 -Internal Wifi and NFC 

4 -Tiltable LCD for self and up and down

5 -Higher burst rate around 5-6fps 

6 -1080p Video MP4 and MOV up to 60p. 3.5mm microphone input.

7 -Tweaked body design for slight more control/button or two.

8- 999 USD to 1300 USD price range (with kit lens)

These 8 I am quite sure will be the in the specifications. 

Why? 

1- First of all it will use an existing Canon APS-C chip. Not have one designed and fabricated for it. So t6i or 80D. M3 already has t6i chip, so moving up market into 1000$ will surely get up the 80D sensor especially since it will give a significant pump in the AF department which is the M3's biggest critique. 80D sensor vs t6i is quite similar image but: has higher DR at low ISO and has DPAF. 

2- DPAF: beause AF is the most critisized part of the current model. 

3- Wifi\NFC because all Canon cameras have it now including a 1300D entire update from 1200D just for wifi so they thnk it's VERY important. 

4- Tiltable LCD: Of course. And it will go to selfie position for the target market as well as the useful up and down movements. 

5- 5.5fps vs 4fps with slightly larger buffer: because it's in the rebel line, and Canon always update speed with new successors apart from a few exceptions. And because it's moving up market. 

6- 1080p, 60p vs 30p: Because most Canon APS-C cameras are now 1080p 60p and no Canon APS-C does 4K. So it will have the same 80d video quality and features like decent HD with DPAF and selfie touch panel. Because it will be marketed for V-loggers. 

7- Tweaked body with more buttom or two/larger grip: Because it's moving upmarket 

8- 1000/1300$ price: because it's moving up market and rivaling Sony A6000. 


Features that are plausable but I am not sure about at all: 

1- Built-in Electronic VF

2- Anti-flicker mode 

3- Silent electronic shutter option

4- More shots per battery. 

5- 3.5mm headphone output (like 80d and up)

Fingers crossed for 1 & 4


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## rrcphoto (Aug 24, 2016)

i guess you didn't hear the "SLIGHTLY" upmarket?

the EOS-M3 is a $500 camera.


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## ashmadux (Aug 24, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> Alastair Norcross said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, even the original M is a small, light, mirrorless walk around camera for everyday street and portrait shooting. It's very good at that. The 22 F2 is excellent, as is the 50 F1.8 STM or 40 F2.8 pancake on an adapter. The original M isn't very good for fast action shooting (nor are any of the other Ms, apparently, though I haven't tried them). I have never had any trouble getting excellent street and portrait (and landscape) shots with my M. I have no idea why anyone else would have trouble either, unless they simply don't know how to use the camera.
> ...




The M1 is also my Daily Camera. Besides the 22f2 I occasionally use it with a 50 or my new 35 IS. After years of practice, I find it eternally easier to compose my images at the correct angle as I want without breaking my neck or doing yoga moves when the camera is attached to my face. Especially if you're doing anything low, which does get annoying, but it is doable.

I'm mostly perplexed with the people who say that they cannot use the camera in sunlight because that is pretty much the majority of time when I'm using the camera. What am I doing so well that I can actually still see my subjects and composite my shots zoom in 10x to make sure I'm hitting the eyes and shoot shoot shoot without getting upset and angry? I have no idea but it's been working for me. Sunday I had a shoot with the 35 on it, and the 22 just sometimes surprises the living hell out of me as the shots are almost as good as what came out of the 5 to 3 on that same day. 

I value my M1 so much as my daily that I protect it like your life depended on it. I need my equipment to work when I need it to without any fuss, and just get it done. Regardless of the AF limitations, it certainly beats my 5d3 in a flexibility being able to focus on the edges of the frame. I'm really interested to see how the 5D4's 61 points of AF, because middle of the frame af points really screw up my compositions - leading to heavy cropping of my images. Pretty damn annoying.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 24, 2016)

Sporgon said:


> I wonder how many of the guys insisting on built in EVF have tried the detachable one. It's actually really neat as it can be tilted up 90 degrees, so you can look straight down, or anywhere in-between. Also it's in the middle of the camera in line with the lens and is very comfortable. I found the pop-up on the Sony horrible to hold and view being right off to the side of the camera. You then have the option of removing it and making the camera pocketable with the pancake lens.
> 
> The downside is that you can't use a decent flash with the EVF in place, and I have found that to be a problem occasionally. Also you have to buy the viewfinder with the M3 as a kit or it is too expensive, but when bought as a kit the Canon smokes the competition in terms of value for money.
> 
> DPAF would be great but I agree with rrpphoto; it may be the dslr flange distance based DPAF does;t work too well on the much shorter mirror less distance.



I like to echo on the detachable EVF. 

I owned the detachable evf on my old RX1(see first pic below). Things I found are not function well for me. 

1. When you shoot with evf stands up at 90deg, one or two shots is fine, but when you shoot for long time it does bother my neck.
2. Pushing the shutter button is also in awkward, especially on slower shutter speed.
3. One more item to remember to carry around
4. As you mentioned, flash(it doesn't apply in my case since I don't shoot flash)
5. It doesn't look right(too me of course)


The pop-up evf, however, I feel it a great feature. It's there when you need it and it can be hide away when not in use. It keeps mirrorless body smaller and cleaner.(see 2nd pic)


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## Uneternal (Aug 24, 2016)

Still waiting for the rumored full frame mirrorless.
IF this camera is coming, please Canon, please don't mess it up and let it take EF lenses without adapter.


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## tron (Aug 24, 2016)

Uneternal said:


> Still waiting for the rumored full frame mirrorless.
> IF this camera is coming, please Canon, please don't mess it up and let it take EF lenses without adapter.


In that case there is no much gain in size. Distance between the lens and the sensor should be the same. So the camera will not be small...


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## ahsanford (Aug 24, 2016)

Uneternal said:


> Still waiting for the rumored full frame mirrorless.
> IF this camera is coming, please Canon, please don't mess it up and let it take EF lenses without adapter.



Syntax is everything: "please don't mess it up and let it take EF lenses without adapter"

Could mean: [Please don't mess it up] and [*please* let it take EF lenses without adapter], i.e. you do not think adapters are a good idea. You want to use EF lenses without an adapter.

Or it could also mean: [Please don't mess it up] [*by letting it* take EF lenses without adapter], i.e. you want to keep the rig small with purpose-built lenses for a small flange distance. EF lenses would still work, but an adapter would be required.

Please clarify -- which of the two did you mean?

- A


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## tron (Aug 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> Uneternal said:
> 
> 
> > Still waiting for the rumored full frame mirrorless.
> ...


+1 Good point. To rephrase it in a mathematical way:

(don't mess it up) and (let it take EF lenses without adapter). 

don't (mess it up and let it take EF lenses without adapter).

;D


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## ahsanford (Aug 24, 2016)

tron said:


> Uneternal said:
> 
> 
> > Still waiting for the rumored full frame mirrorless.
> ...



Exactly. When the lens gets above a standard focal length or gets faster than f/2, the size savings in mirrorless are lost. And people are 100% likely to bolt their big EF lenses on these cameras. Ask Sony users, who just demanded f/1.4 primes and f/2.8 zooms from their company.

So there is a brutal logic in simply making a full EF mount mirrorless setup. Will Canon do this? Probably not -- they have shown a love of keeping things small, which means a new 4th mount for stills just for FF mirrorless. 

- A


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## rrcphoto (Aug 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > Uneternal said:
> ...



they can create a smaller full frame camera than a 6D and 5D.

they just have to move down to rebel ergonomics .. or basically crap Sony A series cramped ergonomics to do so.

there's nothing stopping them from making a full frame EF mirrorless the size of an SL1 or even smaller.


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## Dylan777 (Aug 24, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > Uneternal said:
> ...



Agree, on top of that bigger/heavier native lenses on small body create awkward to shoot in certain situation. I do feel that on my 247GM and 70200Gm with my a7rii. This could be an issue for those with larger hands.

On the other hand, having couple small native primes( 35f2.8, 55f1.8, 28f2 and batis) feel very good as walk around combo.


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## ahsanford (Aug 24, 2016)

tron said:


> +1 Good point. To rephrase it in a mathematical way:
> 
> (don't mess it up) and let it take EF lenses without adapter.
> 
> ...



I'm personally torn on this, as is this forum to some degree (see my poll from some time ago).

Advantages of a new mount (adaptor needed to use EF glass):







[list type=decimal]

[*]A new mount allows you to make a very small form factor rig _if you choose slower/shorter lenses_ (35mm f/2, 50 f/2, etc.)
[*]You could adapt older lenses, non-Canon lenses, etc.
[/list]

Advantages of sticking with EF (no adaptor needed):






[list type=decimal]

[*]You do not need to invest/stockpile lenses in a new mount -- you just need EF.
[*]You can never leave home without an adaptor if it does not exist. The nightmare of leaving for a shoot with a mirrorless-only lens attached to the camera along with a bag of EF glass -- that you cannot use without that adapter -- cannot happen if it's a full EF mount.
[*]Canon will put a proper 5D3-sized grip on it and not hedge on grip size to keep it small for the small percentage of people who want a tiny rig. And that bigger/chunker grip might fit your same FF SLR batteries. 
[/list]

There are many other reasons for both camps but I'm foggy this morning and cannot recall them all. It's not an easy decision at all. Again, just look at how Sony is struggling to balance the needs of the 'keep it small' camp and the 'do everything my SLR can' camp.

- A


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## Ebrahim Saadawi (Aug 25, 2016)

An SL1 or Rebel body with the 5D sensor is an idea. Not probably going to happen. But an idea nonetheless. 

It would give FF image quality to the masses and those who have zero need for the greatest AF, metal grade body, too many buttons, dual cards, large buffer, etc. Those who just want a small cheap FF canon. Price at 80D point and no other product gets hurt in the line. Will it happen? No. 

Neither a FF eos m mirrorless is coming. 

To get expectations right: FF in Canon ecosystem is going to stay at DSLRs starting from the cheapest 6D MKII (then the current 6D will remain as a super super cheap FF option). And on thr mirrorless side. Canon is going to keep updating and refining the EOS m APS-C line. It will be segmented as we can see with the m10, so its segmentation and this CR rumor makea it pretty obvious Canon's next mirrorless is the next farther segmentarion of the eos m line, but starting a higher end segment, as they see people are clamouring for more advanced eos m.


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## asl (Aug 25, 2016)

Etienne said:


> asl said:
> 
> 
> > Would like DR like 80d or better.. and 4K and if possible DPAF, but is seems unlikely ?
> ...



I see lot of people like the 11-22 lens that is encouraging a bit.
I did actually consider buying it just to have it at one point, even I do not have an M. Now I all most wish I did, as it has gone up in price a bit here.
I also have have the 100mm IS L and tilt screen is something I miss a lot of times and not just for pure macro.
As 80d was released with out 4K I am really hoping for good M at this point, or else it could be years until a new Canon camera with 4K and the features I am looking for is released. (one with out the 5d price tag, 5d is also in my opinion "missing" tilt screen). If no 4K it would be necessary to look at other options than Canon when it comes to to filming 4K it seems (might be stating the obvious but..).


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## Sporgon (Aug 25, 2016)

asl said:


> I see lot of people like the 11-22 lens that is encouraging a bit.



The 11-22 EF-M is so good because it is at it best pretty well wide open, so the f/4 mark, like it's big brother, the FF 16-35 IS. A very wide lens wants to be at its best here, but especially on a high resolution crop, because you can still get ample dof (f/4 at 11 mil crop gives about from 2.5 m to infinity - _not_ based on dof tables), which results in not only a faster shutter speed for less shake and a sharper image, but also no resolution sapping diffraction.


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## ahsanford (Aug 25, 2016)

Sporgon said:


> The 11-22 EF-M is so good because it is at it best pretty well wide open, so the f/4 mark, like it's big brother, the FF 16-35 IS. A very wide lens wants to be at its best here, but especially on a high resolution crop, because you can still get ample dof (f/4 at 11 mil crop gives about from 2.5 m to infinity - _not_ based on dof tables), which results in not only a faster shutter speed for less shake and a sharper image, but also no resolution sapping diffraction.



That's lovely in principal, but I often find there is something in the foreground _and_ in the background in my UWA shooting. ;D

I hear you, though. I rarely complain about today's lenses which seem biased towards more wide-open use. It's more like 'f/4 and be there!' these days.

- A


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## AvTvM (Aug 26, 2016)

f/4 is a very slow stop. any lens should be f*cking sharp at that aperture. on crop diffraction window goes to f/5.6 to max. f/8 - so there's not much of a useful f-stop range to start with.


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## d (Aug 27, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> f/4 is a very slow stop. any lens should be f*cking sharp at that aperture. on crop diffraction window goes to f/5.6 to max. f/8 - so there's not much of a useful f-stop range to start with.



...yet I've seen really nice images taken with this lens stopped down well beyond f/8. Some photographers are evidently poorly informed about the limited usefulness of their little WA-zoom M lens. Go figure!


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## AvTvM (Aug 27, 2016)

d said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > f/4 is a very slow stop. any lens should be f*cking sharp at that aperture. on crop diffraction window goes to f/5.6 to max. f/8 - so there's not much of a useful f-stop range to start with.
> ...


i got the 11-22 and like it. of course i also take lits of images with it at f/8 and even f/11 and they turn out well. however, people not aware of diffraction's toll on sharpness at f/8 or f/11 on an APS-C sensor have little clue of the laws of optics ...


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## ahsanford (Aug 27, 2016)

AvTvM said:


> i got the 11-22 and like it. of course i also take lits of images with it at f/8 and even f/11 and they turn out well. however, people not aware of diffraction's toll on sharpness at f/8 or f/11 on an APS-C sensor have little clue of the laws of optics ...



Or we're fully aware of diffraction but would accept diffraction softness due to the odd technical reason. I was shooting Fallingwater five years ago on my old T1i and the light was very difficult. Even with ISO 100, I couldn't slow the shutter down enough to blur the waterfall due to bright sunlight, as I foolishly didn't have an ND filter on me.

_So I stopped down to f/22 and got the composition I wanted_. Was it tack sharp? No. But taking a razor sharp shot at f/5.6 or so would have looked far worse for that particular composition.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Aug 28, 2016)

ahsanford said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > i got the 11-22 and like it. of course i also take lits of images with it at f/8 and even f/11 and they turn out well. however, people not aware of diffraction's toll on sharpness at f/8 or f/11 on an APS-C sensor have little clue of the laws of optics ...
> ...



nice picture. now load that cr2 into DPP4 and run it through DLO, which will has diffraction correction, and corrects the CA I see in that picture.

and see if you like it more.


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## Hellish (Aug 29, 2016)

If this camera gets DPAF + 4k binned not cropped it will be a killer.


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## Sharlin (Aug 29, 2016)

Hellish said:


> If this camera gets DPAF + 4k binned not cropped it will be a killer.



Like there's a snowball's chance in hell that the M series will get 4K before Canon's enthusiast/prosumer DSLR lines... Especially as the M series is already known for its, um, "less-than-optimal" battery life. Also: how to make the tiny body not red hot when recording 4K... If there's something Canon does not want is repeating Sony's folly with the A6300.


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## ahsanford (Aug 29, 2016)

Sharlin said:


> Hellish said:
> 
> 
> > If this camera gets DPAF + 4k binned not cropped it will be a killer.
> ...



I didn't want to be a naysayer to the idea myself, but I find it rather amusing that a mirrorless rig would get a premium feature like 4K before it gets, say, _an integral viewfinder_. Canon does not sprint after just learning how to crawl.

- A


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## pokerz (Aug 30, 2016)

Sharlin said:


> Hellish said:
> 
> 
> > If this camera gets DPAF + 4k binned not cropped it will be a killer.
> ...


Just simply release 4k (2x crop with line skipping and pixel binning) to its Mirrroless, never overheat for 30mins record time, sounds good?


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