# New Macpro teased at Mac Conference



## cayenne (Jun 10, 2013)

Wow...this is certainly something *DIFFERENT*!!

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/

Seems powerful enough, and they're going to have you add functionality by using the 6x Thunderbolt2 connectors, but wow...interesting tube shaped computer!!!

Thoughts?

cayenne


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 10, 2013)

My Impression was $$,$$$
Sounds impressive though. The tube shape might be optimal for cooling.


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## Dianoda (Jun 10, 2013)

Interesting design, but it's a workstation - and if there was ever a use-application where the size of the box was not a primary concern, it's workstations. All those custom parts means you can pretty much forget expandability. No displayport or DVI, so you are pretty much limited to thunderbolt displays (or HDMI). Performance sounds pretty great for the size. Built-in bluetooth 4.0 and ac wifi is nice. What'll it cost? I assume unreasonable amounts of money.


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## mws (Jun 10, 2013)

Looks cool. Looks expensive, but cool.


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## xps (Jun 10, 2013)

Dianoda said:


> Interesting design, but it's a workstation - and if there was ever a use-application where the size of the box was not a primary concern, it's workstations. All those custom parts means you can pretty much forget expandability. No displayport or DVI, so you are pretty much limited to thunderbolt displays (or HDMI). Performance sounds pretty great for the size. Built-in bluetooth 4.0 and ac wifi is nice. What'll it cost? I assume unreasonable amounts of money.



Extraordinary. indeed. Not only the design and the performance. Maybe the price too. 
And: Apple products are not built to get upgraded part by part. They are upgraded by a new model.
I´m no Apple fan. But they create extraordinary products. .


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## Click (Jun 10, 2013)

mws said:


> Looks cool. Looks expensive, but cool.



+1


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## Niki (Jun 10, 2013)

I want one


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## RLPhoto (Jun 10, 2013)

The whole point of the Mac pro was expansion and customization. This looks every time you need to upgrade, bam! Back to apple to charge you more $$$$.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 10, 2013)

Yeah, that's nice and all. WHERE IS MY &$%#+*^ NEW 17" MACBOOK PRO?!?


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## enraginangel (Jun 10, 2013)

Dianoda said:


> Interesting design, but it's a workstation - and if there was ever a use-application where the size of the box was not a primary concern, it's workstations. All those custom parts means you can pretty much forget expandability. No displayport or DVI, so you are pretty much limited to thunderbolt displays (or HDMI). Performance sounds pretty great for the size. Built-in bluetooth 4.0 and ac wifi is nice. What'll it cost? I assume unreasonable amounts of money.



They have usb3 and thunderbolt for expansion. 

You can connect (mini) displayport through the thunderbolt ports. You can also convert thunderbolt to dvi, vga, hdmi, firewire 400/800, ethernet, usb2/3 etc. with a $29 dongle. You can also daisy chain thunderbolt devices. As far as expandability goes, everything will be external. You'll just need to plunk down $10,000 or whatever the hell it will cost to max out everything from the getgo.


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## gkaefer (Jun 10, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> My Impression was $$,$$$
> Sounds impressive though. The tube shape might be optimal for cooling.



rather €€,€€€


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## TAF (Jun 10, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> My Impression was $$,$$$
> Sounds impressive though. The tube shape might be optimal for cooling.



No, just $,$$$ 

If they are consistent, it will be between $3,000 and $4,000.

I wonder if this is the first product that will be made in Foxconn's new Detroit factory?


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## privatebydesign (Jun 10, 2013)

As I don't do video or gaming my thoughts are I will get a current Mac Pro, use the current expansion card system when needed and keep buying cameras with sub 30MP resolution. Which all works fine and dandy and plenty fast enough for me.

The strongest selling point for me for the current form factor is that customisation and upgrading are very cheap, that won't be true of the new models with graphics capabilities I will never use for years.


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## papa-razzi (Jun 11, 2013)

enraginangel said:


> They have usb3 and thunderbolt for expansion.
> 
> You can connect (mini) displayport through the thunderbolt ports. You can also convert thunderbolt to dvi, vga, hdmi, firewire 400/800, ethernet, usb2/3 etc. with a $29 dongle. You can also daisy chain thunderbolt devices. As far as expandability goes, everything will be external. You'll just need to plunk down $10,000 or whatever the hell it will cost to max out everything from the getgo.



Very cool design. Design is what Apple is good at. They make nice products, and everything works and plays well together - as long as it is all from Apple.

They have optimized the design for their product, which will look cool in product photos and in the show room - but the expansion is, as you mention above, all through connectors. This means cables everywhere, connected to a bunch of devices (external HD's, DVD readers/burners, etc), many will have to be plugged into their own power. If you expand this thing much, I envision a spyder web of cords and cables and a handful of devices cluttering the workspace. So, in the end, is a cool looking and small CPU with a bunch of cables and external devices sitting around the workspace better or worse than the current big and clunky MacPro with everything self-contained within for the most part.

Meh


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 11, 2013)

A cylinder that's 6.6" in diameter and 10" tall!!! That's pretty damn small - definitely an amazing design, a desktop computer with ample power, that's the size of two Kleenex boxes stacked up. Wow.

I sill want a new 17" MBP, though... I expect that at some point soon, LCD panel makers will come up with a 17" retina display, then Apple will bring the big boy back to the lineup.


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## DanThePhotoMan (Jun 11, 2013)

Just incase anyone wants to check it out, they have a good bit of the specs for it on the website:

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/

It sort of reminds me of a small trash can haha. I really like that they made the body aluminum.


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## ahab1372 (Jun 11, 2013)

Who else is reminded of the Cube? Just with rounded corners (didn't Apple have a patent on that?)


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## paul13walnut5 (Jun 11, 2013)

New mac pro? Still no mercury engine option. Looks like a thermos. Made in the usa and so hopefully more reliable (my mac pro is on 2nd RAID and 3rd gfx card) if only there was a decent version of fcp to run on it.

I still think my next suite is going to be a pc.


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## kyswarts (Jun 11, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yeah, that's nice and all. WHERE IS MY &$%#+*^ NEW 17" MACBOOK PRO?!?



Exactly!!! 

I have a late 2011 Macbook Pro 17". Wonderful laptop but I want to know there is a new one when I look to upgrade


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 11, 2013)

TAF said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > My Impression was $$,$$$
> ...


 
It has dual 6 core Xenon E5 processors, which alone can set you back from $400 up to $1600 each in bulk, Dual video GPU's, with 6GB VRAM, another $ 600-1200, Expensive ECC Memory, SSD storage, 1GB Drives was rumored, 
Apple does not sell things for just the cost of the components. $3k might be for a crippled one, but I doubt it.

You don't suppose that early adopters will pay more ... nah, only Canon does that.


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## Rienzphotoz (Jun 11, 2013)

Impressive looking little thing that seems to pack a punch.


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## eml58 (Jun 11, 2013)

My Current MacPro left me no Change from USD$11K, so I'de expect the new Machine to be similarly priced, from Base maybe 4k through to Max everything 12k, but what an amazing design, won me, I've been waiting for 3 years for Apple to get their act together & design the new MacPro, worth the wait from what I can see in this.

Someone mentioned Cables earlier, there's a gazilion cables coming out of my Current MacPro, just like there would be if it were a PC, you have to hook up a Monitor, but your Printer will work WiFi/Blue Tooth, only extra cabling I can think of at present is DVD Reader/Writer, so I don't really see Cabling as any more of an issue than current.

I imagine the Apple haters will, other than hate the thing because it's ?? round, will feel it was designed by Steve, with an Oujia Board input.

I'm sold, only issue I have with the whole thing is it's not available until late this year.


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## AudioGlenn (Jun 11, 2013)

I like it but my current machine is still running fine and will last me (hopefully) another 3-4 years...just enough time for this newly designed model to mature a little more before I upgrade.

12-core 2.93 GHz 2010 Mac Pro
3-drive RAID 0 for big data (Pro Tools sessions, Lightroom Catalog, Final Cut Events/Projects)
3x8GB OWC RAM
120GB OWC SSD

(forgive me if that was boastful but I do love my gear =)


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## Halfrack (Jun 11, 2013)

I think my only issue is that they're teasing these now, and expect folks to be ok with the wait. Apple historically says here it is, you can buy it tomorrow/next week/next month... I don't see it being able to hold enough RAM, like 64gb or higher, so you're doing 16gb RAM sticks? That and AMD does single socket CPU's with 16 cores, so doing 2x 6 core is (fill in here)....

This also kills the ability to rack mount them, as Apple killed the xServe. It should also help push down the price of thunderbolt options, as we're getting screwed with the huge markup to plug in anything currently. I still want a 4k Apple Thunderbolt display with a built-in 1-2gb graphics card.


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## pwp (Jun 11, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> New mac pro?
> I still think my next suite is going to be a PC.



We are platform agnostic here with three PC's (Win 7) and two Macs. I've got to tell you the PC's are the go-to machines when there is work to be done. Apple is losing the plot. I expect we'll be all-PC sometime in 2014. The only keeper may be the MB Air...so light for travel.

-PW


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## bchernicoff (Jun 11, 2013)

Dianoda said:


> No displayport or DVI, so you are pretty much limited to thunderbolt displays (or HDMI),



Oh, really? I own each of these and they work great through the Thunderbolt port on my MacBookPro.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10246&cs_id=1024606&p_id=6007&seq=1&format=2

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10246&cs_id=1024603&p_id=9475&seq=1&format=2


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## paul13walnut5 (Jun 11, 2013)

pwp said:


> paul13walnut5 said:
> 
> 
> > New mac pro?
> ...



Realisically, for me, I went to Mac's because my college trained on macs using Final Cut Pro (as in the first time round) and although I grew to love the design and the transparacy of the OS, I really started using macs because of final cut. This stayed with me in my University job where the labs were all mac and they paid for me to do my certified pro certificates, when I moved to my current job it was a no brainer to spec a mac suite, as well as the mini, macbook pro and imac I've had at home. All running FCP of various generation.

So when Mac screwed FCPX, I had no reason to buy a mac again. Long may my desktop run (I would say run well, but its trashed one RAID and it's on its 3rd graphics card) and my imac run at home (runs sweet and fast) but as I'm not tied to FCP anymore I can buy the most powerful machine I can afford, and that is always always always going to be a PC. And as I'll be running Adobe Premiere from now on, it will be a PC with a mercury engine card.

I bought my girlfried an ipad mini for her birthday, and I love my iphone, these devices are great, and they are the future of apple. It seems a total oxymoron for Apple to launch such a powerful machine whilst stabbing their pro users in the back over software.

During the keynote video I counted at least 3 times when 'firewire' was used when he meant 'thunderbolt'.
And that just about sums apple up these days.


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## miah (Jun 11, 2013)

eml58 said:


> My Current MacPro left me no Change from USD$11K, so I'de expect the new Machine to be similarly priced, from Base maybe 4k through to Max everything 12k, but what an amazing design, won me, I've been waiting for 3 years for Apple to get their act together & design the new MacPro, worth the wait from what I can see in this.
> 
> Someone mentioned Cables earlier, there's a gazilion cables coming out of my Current MacPro, just like there would be if it were a PC, you have to hook up a Monitor, but your Printer will work WiFi/Blue Tooth, only extra cabling I can think of at present is DVD Reader/Writer, so I don't really see Cabling as any more of an issue than current.
> 
> ...



I'm with *eml58*, I have a MacPro now and can't wait to get the new, faster model. The only material difference is that the drives (optical and storage) must move out , which allows the new machine to be smaller and run cooler/quieter. Putting the drives inside was necessary with the older model, pre-Thunderbolt, since internal SATA connections were at the time the fastest available.

I don't know what "work" *pwp* is referring to; my current MacPro with SSD chews up pretty much anything and this new model will do so in spades. Yes, it will likely be pricey, but so are big white lenses.

*paul13walnut5*, I'm sorry to hear you've had issues with your MacPro's RAID and graphics card, but those are distinct from the computer itself. I've had no problems with my MacPro, any of its third-party parts, or any of the over 30 other Macs I've purchased over the years. They've proven their reliability again and again in a heavy-use work environment. Finally, opinions on FCPX vary. I personally don't do video (yet), but I know a lot of folks who at first didn't like the X version of FCP, but with its updates have come around to loving it. Either way, these machines are not just video editors. 

I'd suggest withholding judgment until this thing hits the shelves and we can see how it actually performs and integrates with our peripherals. If Intel can finally get Thunderbolt off the ground (now with version 2 when there's still a dearth of version 1 peripherals available), we'll finally be cookin' with gas.


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## bchernicoff (Jun 11, 2013)

M4X said:


> As an audio engineer relying on pci-express expansion cards and working on pro tools this new mac pro without any expansion card slots is a pile of crap.
> 
> I can see lots of studios moving to windows because of this.
> 
> form cripples function.



http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/Thunderbolt/PCIe_Chassis/Mercury_Helios


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## paul13walnut5 (Jun 11, 2013)

miah said:


> *paul13walnut5*, I'm sorry to hear you've had issues with your MacPro's RAID and graphics card, but those are distinct from the computer itself. I've had no problems with my MacPro, any of its third-party parts, or any of the over 30 other Macs I've purchased over the years. They've proven their reliability again and again in a heavy-use work environment. Finally, opinions on FCPX vary. I personally don't do video (yet), but I know a lot of folks who at first didn't like the X version of FCP, but with its updates have come around to loving it. Either way, these machines are not just video editors.



I am just a video editor though, and Apples USP for me was FCP. I know Apple aren't building a machine just for me. And there's a lot of video editors on the same boat  
The only thing realistically that specifically only Apple could do for me was FCP.

Had they at least been able to spec a mercury engine card without adding $1500 on to the price of a tower then I may have been tempted to stay with Apple as a platform.

The RAID was a G raid, and the graphics card was the stock part supplied (then replaced at cost, despite later recall, by apple) and what is a tower other than the sum of it's parts? I'm not expecting apple to apologise, or for you to apologise on apples behalf, no more than I expect you, as somebody who hasn't personally done any video, to tell me, a video editor with 12 years final cut experience, what I should be editing on.


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## RLPhoto (Jun 11, 2013)

I need to upgrade. I've just realized my machine still has an Intel E6600 from 2006. 7 years of PC service. :|


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## Niterider (Jun 11, 2013)

So it is a workstation with the ability to be customized similar to a laptop. Great thinking Apple.... I'll pass


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## Pixel_crab (Jun 11, 2013)

I don't need a designed machine in my studio, I need a tool, that works and runs Logic Pro and Pro Tools and the Adobe CC.

An upgradeable computer is the strict basis, this MacPro is far away from beeing a professional tool.
Based upon the cycle of life of a SSD, we can pretty much guess that the hard drives will be dead within 3-4 years (shorter life cycle). 
This is not a professional computer, but a design "thing" that does not comply with what's needed in a proper studio with recording, video rendering and so on (yes it will do on short term, but in 2017, I would'nt like to put €€, €€€ in another machine just because that one is outdated).
What about my old soundcard? Graphic cards?
I don't want "thunderbolt ports", they are specific to Apple and 50€ for adaptators are just a big insult to people working on multiple platform.

PS: I am an Apple fan, but stop all the hype around any product they make.


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## RGF (Jun 11, 2013)

Cost could derail the purchase for me. Not only the cost of the tube, but the extra expense of having thunderbolt accessories. Current monitors are use DVI (I think - NEC spectraview) so unless they can be connected, will be a very hard decision to go with the Mac Pro for me


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## cayenne (Jun 11, 2013)

Dianoda said:


> Interesting design, but it's a workstation - and if there was ever a use-application where the size of the box was not a primary concern, it's workstations. All those custom parts means you can pretty much forget expandability. No displayport or DVI, so you are pretty much limited to thunderbolt displays (or HDMI). Performance sounds pretty great for the size. Built-in bluetooth 4.0 and ac wifi is nice. What'll it cost? I assume unreasonable amounts of money.


I currently use a Thunderbolt to Displayport adapter to run my Dell U2711 monitor from my macbookpro (late 2011).


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## cayenne (Jun 11, 2013)

M4X said:


> bchernicoff said:
> 
> 
> > M4X said:
> ...



You don't have any NAS disk systems running RAID outside of your computers' cases???

That's pretty common these days, rarely do you depend on the disk drives internal to the computer case....at least in my experience with anyone doing serious data storage, redundancy and even backup (mirrored RAID disk systems, tape, etc).


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## Niterider (Jun 11, 2013)

cayenne said:


> M4X said:
> 
> 
> > bchernicoff said:
> ...



NAS Systems are more for the home user, not for professional use. If this is a professional workstation as it is marketed to be, no one in their right mind would use an external raid array. Too much too loose. Much better off getting a workstation that has advanced raid controllers in order to adequately support a large internal hd array. Anyways, my bet would be the mainboard in this computer wont support past raid 5. 

But then again, anyone serious about doing "serious data storage" uses server racks. Totally different ballpark and not applicable to this thread. 

All this computer is is a overpriced cylinder with decent components and NO ability to expand in the future. But hey if you want to throw away $3-4k be my guest. I could build a computer with a Xeon E5-2687W for considerably less than this costs.


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## Aglet (Jun 11, 2013)

It's a gorgeous and well-spec'd piece of hardware, impressive.

I don't accept the gripes people make about it not being internally capable of holding all their (old) add-ons. Serious users usually have serious hardware OUTside of the CPU box; now you just HAVE to do it that way.. not that big a deal. (it's only money) This new machine is just a processing pipe.

What would make me hot for this hardware is if it would actually boot Snow Leopard! The various lions all suck in comparison and I'm not holding out a lot of optimism for Mavericks getting back to anywhere near the power-user-friendly abilities of 10.6.x. 
I've been working with, and on, macs since '85 and agree with many of the other old dogs who swear by 10.6; and swear at Apple for taking away so many useful features from those older OSes in the later versions. 

Those of you new to the Apple experience don't know what you're missing.

I'll still plug away on my 2010 27" iMac running 10.6 for a few more years of stills editing and my i7 mini server is adept at handling the various other tasks, including day-to-day usage and running 10.8 for what few applications need the newer OS.

I'll likely get a hankering for a nice 4k display tho, and then I'll have to decide what platform I'll use at that time.


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## woodymirag (Jun 11, 2013)

I purchased a Mac Pro back in 2007. I pretty much maxed it out at the time with dual quad-core Xeons, 4 SATA 750GB drives and the Apple RAID card. Editing video (FCP), audio (Adobe Audition from CS5.5), and of course RAW photos (Adobe Camera Raw) from my 5DIII, what is shocking to me is how fast, reliable, and robust this machine has turned out to be, even to this day. Yeah, at the time of purchase, I was planning on doing video card upgrades and other expansion over the years, but I really haven't done it. It hasn't been that necessary.

Sure, I dropped upwards of $8K on this machine at the time, but it has lasted me 6 years and continues to perform quite admirably. It has never needed repair, and it's running all the time. I like that!

So, I am not that concerned about the new Mac Pro and expandability. If I decide to pillage my bank account for an upgrade (maybe after Canon releases a high megapixel SLR!), I will just try to max out everything I can afford, then leave the machine plugging away for hopefully another 6-7 years. I do require a CD/DVD drive for media creation, but otherwise, it's hard to complain with credibly about the specifications and myriad port flexibility.

I am by no means purely in the Apple camp having run an IT department for over a decade with mixed Windows flavors and Macs. I see (and hear from users!) both sides. What we've noticed is that even to this day, even our fastest Windows units still benefit from a Symantec Ghost re-imaging of the hard drive every 18 months or so. Maybe this isn't as necessary with Windows 8, but it is with previous flavors. We have not had this kind of issue with the MacOS, particularly the second half releases of Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion. Anyway, the Win/Mac thing is a tired old argument, and few in one camp are ever convinced by folks in the other camp. Personally, I don't care. But I think Apple has the edge at the moment with OS technology, performance, and reliability. If Mavericks is stable, the new Mac Pro is pretty compelling.

One other item on the new Mac Pro: Someone in the thread mentioned rack-mountability (or lack thereof). Funny, I thought of that the moment I saw the black cylinder form factor. I bet right now there are companies out there figuring out ways to get this into a rack. First one to market will make a bundle!


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## dirtcastle (Jun 11, 2013)

Even if Apple had decided to make the new Mac Pro more adaptable and customizable, it would still be A LOT cheaper to build a custom PC. I definitely prefer OS X to Windows, but for a video/graphics workstation computer, all I care is that the operating system is stable.

I've been spec'ing custom PC builds. It takes a bit of work and research for someone who has never assembled a computer from scratch (me). But I can build a monster video workstation for under $4k. I can build EXACTLY what I want without arbitrary limitations. Hell, I could even do a Hacktintosh if I couldn't live without OS X.

BTW, I also still rock that late-2011 17" MBP. Unfortunately, that is not something I can build myself ;-)


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## cayenne (Jun 11, 2013)

Niterider said:


> cayenne said:
> 
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> > M4X said:
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Funny, in my server environments...we have SAN storage...effectively NAS....

Very seldom n the high end systems I work on for my day job, do I rely on servers with internal storage....and I'm talking multi-multi-terrabytes of data. Per server.

I'm quite used to using off server storage, with different RAID levels....different filesystems, etc. I'd say it certainly is professional in level to have your storage external to your CPUs.


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## Niterider (Jun 11, 2013)

cayenne said:


> Niterider said:
> 
> 
> > cayenne said:
> ...




Kinda funny when you omit my comment about how this is not applicable to servers and your entire response is about servers... 

There is no use arguing apples and oranges.


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## AudioGlenn (Jun 12, 2013)

M4X said:


> As an audio engineer relying on pci-express expansion cards and working on pro tools this new mac pro without any expansion card slots is a pile of crap.
> 
> I can see lots of studios moving to windows because of this.
> 
> form cripples function.



In some ways I agree. I'm running a Pro Tools HD Native Rig (PCIe card, not thunderbolt) and I don't want to have to buy an external PCIe chassis to hook up. If I ever move up to HDX, I'd have no choice. Moving to PC is not an option for me as I run Final Cut X as well.


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## cayenne (Jun 12, 2013)

Niterider said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > Niterider said:
> ...



Server is just another name for a computer.....what do you differentiate on...form ? Function? Capability?

I have a number of computers I use at home that are pretty high end, and different form factors...which criteria would you use to differentiate them from server to 'normal' computer?

C


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## privatebydesign (Jun 12, 2013)

With regards Apples, the subjects of the thread, a server is easily defined as any Apple computer running the server software.

When they do run the software they show up as servers, not as glorified shared folders on a network.


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## captainkanji (Jun 12, 2013)

I've been slowly moving into the Apple camp over the last few years. So far, it's the iPhone 5 and an iPad Mini. I'm really interested in the Mac book pro for Lightroom on location. They are a bit out of my price range at the moment so I'm thinking about getting a Mac Mini just for LR and converting my catalog. I haven't used an Apple computer since the Apple IIe and need to learn the ropes. I'm more excited for IOS 7 ;D


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## paul13walnut5 (Jun 12, 2013)

Lightroom will run as well on a cheaper pc, the mac mini is handy for certain things, a basic imac may be better value overall though.


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## Grumbaki (Jun 13, 2013)

captainkanji said:


> I've been slowly moving into the Apple camp over the last few years. So far, it's the iPhone 5 and an iPad Mini. I'm really interested in the Mac book pro for Lightroom on location. They are a bit out of my price range at the moment so I'm thinking about getting a Mac Mini just for LR and converting my catalog. I haven't used an Apple computer since the Apple IIe and need to learn the ropes. I'm more excited for IOS 7 ;D



I'm a long time mac fan but I'll advise against buying a mac mini if you are planning to use it with a DSLR. Even good mac mini are average at best as soon as you have a consequent photo library and do moderate editing (aperture + nik).

On the other hand I don't think mac pro are a necessity if you're not into heavy video editing or 3d rendering. My maxed out iMac 27"mid 2012 model is breezing through all my needs while running other heavy lifting (encoding, 1080 movie running not to get bored, compressing the exports and so forth). A lower model would thus probably be adequat for non gratuitous use.

TLDR: Serious hobbyist to stills only pros = iMac.


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## RGF (Jun 13, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> My Impression was $$,$$$
> Sounds impressive though. The tube shape might be optimal for cooling.



Not just the cost of the tube, but the cost of all the thunderbolt devices!! Seagate Backup Plus with thunderbolt is $230 while $90 with USB 3.0. That is $140 per device. Hope the costs come down soon.


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