# Are These The Next Canon Cameras To Be Announced? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 14, 2018)

```
We were sent the following information about what may be the next Canon cameras to be announced. I don’t think these will be the big announcements for Photokina. We’re all hoping for a big splash from Canon fpr the marquee photographic trade show.</p>
<p><strong>EC801 – Canon Powershot SX740</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>40x Zoom travel compact</li>
<li>1/2.3 Sensor</li>
<li>Touchscreen</li>
<li>GPS</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>EC804 – Canon PowerShot G7 X Mark III</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>4.2x Zoom</li>
<li>1″ sensor</li>
<li>DPAF</li>
<li>4k Video (no DPAF)</li>
<li>GPS</li>
<li>This camera features a new Canon 1″ sensor</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>EC811 Canon EOS M5 Mark II</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>28.3MP APS-C mirorless camera</li>
<li>[email protected] video and DPAF.</li>
<li>This camera features a new Canon APS-C sensor</li>
</ul>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## Dvash7 (Jun 14, 2018)

So these three PLUS lenses PLUS a FF mirrorless? Why am I skeptical...


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 14, 2018)

The last rumor said 'prosumer mirrorless' which doesn't necessarily mean FF MILC. Thus...the M5 MkII.


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## jolyonralph (Jun 14, 2018)

If the M5 II is released this year then there's a great deal more chance that the new DSLR this year will be the 7D III rather than the 90D. I can't see them launching a 90D with DPAF 4K without updating the 7D line first.

And yes, this does really make it less likely we'll see a FF mirrorless this year.

Perhaps it's not Sony that Canon are worried about, but Panasonic & Fuji.


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## Etienne (Jun 14, 2018)

I hope they go all-in with the M5 mk II: in body IS, good usable 4K, change to the flippy screen seen on the M50.
Add the rumored 32mm f/1.4 and the package is starting to look pretty good: 11-22 IS; 22mm f/2; 32mm f/1.4; 55-200 (wish they'd up the game on this lens with a metal mount and a little faster). I could easily live with that for lightweight travel.


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## docsmith (Jun 14, 2018)

_"Are These The Next Canon Cameras To Be Announced?"_


Yes...


What did I win????


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## MGE (Jun 14, 2018)

With a 28 MP sensor, surely Canon isn't going to just crop in for 4K on the M5 Mark II, right? That would be even less active sensor area than on the M50. DPAF in 4K is a big step up, but not if it's deployed on an effectively >1-inch sensor. With no crop, I'd probably still buy it even if they used the MJPEG codec, whereas if there's a huge crop, they'd have to throw in the moon (10-bit, Canon log, etc.) for me to care. 

Needless to say, that's speaking just for me and just from a video perspective, since my still needs are pretty nicely covered already. But I hope the recent rumor that Canon wants to improve video specs will be reflected in this release. If a new M5 portends that a FF mirrorless model (which I'd probably be interested in from a stills perspective, even if it had only rudimentary video) is a 2019 or later release, I hope they get aggressive with mirrorless ASP-C in the meantime. The M50 was in many ways more competitive with the original M5 than line-up placement might have indicated, so maybe there's hope they'll try to offer a clear jump with the new model.


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## melgross (Jun 14, 2018)

Actually, these are what the market wants. Canon seems to be doing better then their rivals in these areas, so it makes sense for these. As the M5 is pretty popular, this should continue the momentum of what’s become the most popular (and fastest growing) mirrorless family.

I don’t think this precludes an FF mirrorless this year. Canon’s statement for fowards growth is almost the exact opposite of Nikon’s. While Nikon is in cut costs and hold profits mode, Canon did say that their goal was to increase marketshare through new product introduction and increased R&D. That’s what we want to hear.


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## melgross (Jun 14, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> The last rumor said 'prosumer mirrorless' which doesn't necessarily mean FF MILC. Thus...the M5 MkII.



Don’t forget that to Canon, the 5D mk IV is a prosumer camera as well.


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## Uneternal (Jun 14, 2018)

> Actually, these are what the market wants.



Are they? In the price rankings here in Europe, 6 of 10 cameras in the top 10 are a full frame with A7 III ranking first. That doesn't tell you about actual sales but the interest of people (clicked offers).


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## RGF (Jun 14, 2018)

I would like to hear (translated into ENglish) the product planning discussions are Canon.

Especially now that the Nikon D850 is such a big hit. How and when will Canon reply?

36 MP?
Dual pixels with each half at a different ISO? That would be very interesting!
Hopefully the 5D Mark V (If I can call it that ) will have 10 FPS, a large buffer (30+ shoots), cfast card, ..

I can dream ...


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## siegsAR (Jun 14, 2018)

Had an M5 almost a year now, loving it so far. If they put good 4K30 w/ DPAF + proper flip screen. I would surely buy it.

But honestly, 1080p120 is more useful for me, in fact I'd prefer it over 4K.


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## jalps (Jun 14, 2018)

An M5 mk II w/ 4k DPAF would pull a huge share of the 80D market, myself included, looking for a more lightweight and compact option. Add the articulating screen and now I can keep my big lenses but add some of the EF-M to my kit for a more compact setup. That would be amazing!


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## rrcphoto (Jun 14, 2018)

Etienne said:


> in body IS


not going to happen, not sure why people keep wishing this.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 14, 2018)

jalps said:


> An M5 mk II w/ 4k DPAF would pull a huge share of the 80D market, myself included, looking for a more lightweight and compact option. Add the articulating screen and now I can keep my big lenses but add some of the EF-M to my kit for a more compact setup. That would be amazing!



I can imagine that if the M5 Mark II gets 4K + DPAF and a non crop that canon is going to update the entire lineup from start to finish .. FAST.


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## slclick (Jun 14, 2018)

I love my M5, that being said, if it was improved, sure, I'd upgrade.


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## Talys (Jun 14, 2018)

slclick said:


> I love my M5, that being said, if it was improved, sure, I'd upgrade.



I've almost bought an M5 so many times. Perhaps I will purchase an M5Mk2!


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## jalps (Jun 14, 2018)

Talys said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > I love my M5, that being said, if it was improved, sure, I'd upgrade.
> ...



I feel the exact same way. I don't seen enough of a difference over my 80D to justify the move, but a Mk2 would probably push me over the edge.


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## Kit. (Jun 14, 2018)

Uneternal said:


> Are they?


Aren't they?



Uneternal said:


> In the price rankings here in Europe, 6 of 10 cameras in the top 10 are a full frame with A7 III ranking first. That doesn't tell you about actual sales but the interest of people (clicked offers).


In which "price ranking" can I click on a G7X III offer?


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## edoorn (Jun 14, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> The last rumor said 'prosumer mirrorless' which doesn't necessarily mean FF MILC. Thus...the M5 MkII.



on the other hand, the rumor about mirrorless before that (somewhere end of May) mentioned full frame again, so I guess no one knows


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## ahsanford (Jun 14, 2018)

jalps said:


> An M5 mk II w/ 4k DPAF would pull a huge share of the 80D market, myself included, looking for a more lightweight and compact option.



+1. This would be a landgrab for the amateur videographers, but presumably the _90D_ will get the similar 4K + DPAF treatment when it comes out next year.

- A


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 14, 2018)

Hopefully the M5 will be a more rugged and better built body with some weathersealing. Also Canon should improve the battery door in a way that the hinge is not right next to the tripod mount, making it impossible to change battery on a tripod.
For example Sony A6xxx series have a nice solution.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 14, 2018)

Uneternal said:


> > Actually, these are what the market wants.
> 
> 
> 
> Are they? In the price rankings here in Europe, 6 of 10 cameras in the top 10 are a full frame with A7 III ranking first. That doesn't tell you about actual sales but the interest of people (clicked offers).



link?

i just went to amazon.de and amazon.fr and saw no such thing.

funny thing is the best selling compact system camera in amazon.gr which is usually VERY sony weighted is the EOS-M50, the M10 being 5th. Sony takes spot 2,3 and panasonic takes spot 4.


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## brad-man (Jun 14, 2018)

While I am a happy M5 owner, there are certainly a few things that could be improved. Global electronic shutter (not happening anytime soon) and fully articulating rear screen would be at the top of my list. However, if Canon releases a v2 of this camera before releasing a quick medium telephoto prime as well as a quicker and higher quality telephoto zoom, my head will explode.


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Jun 14, 2018)

As I'm realizing the joy that is my M50 and my introduction to the EF-M system, I have to admit Canon feels like a sleeping mirrorless giant that has been making moves behind the scene. I already want what the M5 II could be compared to the M50 (better build, more control dials, more pro features, etc.). I just sincerely hope it isn't the "big" mirrorless camera they're planning on releasing this year.


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## Tugela (Jun 14, 2018)

* watches the ball continue to bounce *


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 14, 2018)

melgross said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > The last rumor said 'prosumer mirrorless' which doesn't necessarily mean FF MILC. Thus...the M5 MkII.
> ...



Good point!


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Jun 14, 2018)

brad-man said:


> While I am a happy M5 owner, there are certainly a few things that could be improved. Global electronic shutter (not happening anytime soon) and fully articulating rear screen would be at the top of my list. However, if Canon releases a v2 of this camera before releasing a quick medium telephoto prime as well as a quicker and higher quality telephoto zoom, my head will explode.



I 2nd this...The rumored 32mm f/1.4 sounds promissing...and might be a good pair for the M5 II. But the line still leaves a lot to be desired. 

Others might know, but I really don't think the EF-M mount will cover FF. I hope Canon reserves the EF-M mount for APS-C to keep things small and compact...and just makes FF mirrorless with the normal EF mount. I already have one adapter for EF to EF-M...I don't want to have to get yet another to use my EF glass on a FF mount....


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## Etienne (Jun 14, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > in body IS
> ...



In body IS gives IS to every non-IS prime. Is it really that hard to understand why people would want that?


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## Sharlin (Jun 15, 2018)

Etienne said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



You can want all you want but it's simply not realistic. Trying to predict future Canon offerings and idly fantasizing about a "perfect" Canon camera are two different things.


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## Talys (Jun 15, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Uneternal said:
> 
> 
> > Are they?
> ...



What is a "price ranking"?

I will assume it does not mean, most expensive = top ;D


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## Sharlin (Jun 15, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> jalps said:
> 
> 
> > An M5 mk II w/ 4k DPAF would pull a huge share of the 80D market, myself included, looking for a more lightweight and compact option.
> ...



+2. Almost certainly going to share the same sensor and main features, just like the M5 does with the 80D.


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## bdbender4 (Jun 15, 2018)

Bundle an M5 upgrade with the new 35mm f/1.4 lens?? ;-)


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 15, 2018)

Etienne said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



In body vibration would give massages to everyone. I bet some people want that, too.

I don’t think either of those is more likely than the other.


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## Etienne (Jun 15, 2018)

Sharlin said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



Not realistic? 
So only Sony can do in-body IS, and they do it really well.
You think very little of Canon, and expect less.

BTW ... if you don't like it, you can turn it off.


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## pj1974 (Jun 15, 2018)

I have a Canon M5, as well as a Canon 80D (and a number of older DSLRs, etc). While I generally prefer the 80D (for a number of factors including ergonomics, battery life, lens compatibility, etc).

However, I bought the M5 for 3 specific reasons:

1) Samyang / Rokinon 12mm f/2 (a great lens for astro photography)
2) When I need / want to take along a smaller camera / lens combo
3) I bought it 2nd hand, but in as new condition, for a very low price (along with 15-45mm, 18-55mm, and 18-150mm lenses).

If Canon update the M5 with certain goodies that will be of value to me, I will probably sell my M5 (with 18-55mm) and upgrade to the M5 II. I would make some $ selling the M5 on the current 2nd hand market.

Most important aspects to me would be good sensor / IQ, at least as good ergonomics and potentially better AF (e.g. low light, etc).

PJ


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## melgross (Jun 15, 2018)

Uneternal said:


> > Actually, these are what the market wants.
> 
> 
> 
> Are they? In the price rankings here in Europe, 6 of 10 cameras in the top 10 are a full frame with A7 III ranking first. That doesn't tell you about actual sales but the interest of people (clicked offers).



Looking at the numbers, which I don’t have right now, but were on Thom Hogan’s site, Canon’s mirrorless line moved to number one, and is the fastest growing. Sony may have one or two cameras that, themselves, rank higher, but overall, Canon is beating them, after having been criticized as not getting into it early enough. Canon’s marketshare is rising faster too.

I have big hopes here. The new M5 II looks good. When we see all the final specs, we’ll know,what advances Canon fit in, other than what we know now. I still think this leaves room for a FF model.


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## melgross (Jun 15, 2018)

brad-man said:


> While I am a happy M5 owner, there are certainly a few things that could be improved. Global electronic shutter (not happening anytime soon) and fully articulating rear screen would be at the top of my list. However, if Canon releases a v2 of this camera before releasing a quick medium telephoto prime as well as a quicker and higher quality telephoto zoom, my head will explode.



Oh, I hope not. We really don’t want exploding heads, talking heads, yes.


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## melgross (Jun 15, 2018)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> brad-man said:
> 
> 
> > While I am a happy M5 owner, there are certainly a few things that could be improved. Global electronic shutter (not happening anytime soon) and fully articulating rear screen would be at the top of my list. However, if Canon releases a v2 of this camera before releasing a quick medium telephoto prime as well as a quicker and higher quality telephoto zoom, my head will explode.
> ...



Canon said that that mount won’t cover FF. That horse is out of the barn, and running.


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## Otara (Jun 15, 2018)

M5 II improvements Id like:

Can use the bluetooth remote.
Faster AF/tracking.
Bigger battery/grip.
True silent shooting.
Digital zoom for video (like 200D)
Stronger tripod mount (plastic around mine has cracked)
USB charging option
Ability to record when using phone app.
Lockable exposure dial or less exposed.
Ability to turn off auto VF switch sensor but still use info button to switch VF/screen view 
Ability to lock various controls to not change b/w VF and screen (maybe this can be done already?) eg ISO.

Obviously there are others but these are some I see mentioned less often. If some of these can be done and Ive missed how, be v.grateful to be corrected!


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## deleteme (Jun 15, 2018)

No one has mentioned a larger battery.
If we could get to 500-600 CIPA rated exposures we would all be happier.


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## slclick (Jun 15, 2018)

jalps said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > slclick said:
> ...



If I already had the 80D I wouldn't have gotten it, my purchase had nothing to do with it being ML.


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## Talys (Jun 15, 2018)

slclick said:


> jalps said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



I have, and love an 80D. 

The reason I have wanted an M5 is 100% GAS. There is no intelligent reason for me to buy one, other than that I want to buy one 

I would probably leave it in my car, and discover every time I wanted to use it that the battery was at 8%. :'( Not because I rarely use a camera that I have with me in the car, but because I have my 6D2 with 100-400II with me in the car most of the time =X And, in the long periods between real use, the battery would trickle down.


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## [email protected] (Jun 15, 2018)

I sold my M5 after a few months. Gave it a go and liked it. But I need a very fast-acting camera. Turn on/focus/shoot should be extremely fast. I found the M5 sluggish, the AF not quite as fast in some situations, and - most annoyingly - the camera seemed to have about 90 percent of the computing power it needed. When I used my thumb on the screen to move the focus point, I detected occasional lags. 

It took me weeks to get comfortable enough with it to realize just what was happening, but then was maddening when it did. I've been waiting since for a new one to improve that speed performance. If it has 12fps and the sensor tech that goes into the 5D4, then I might buy it as the action body that my 5D4 is really not. Much will be determined by FPS and sensor IQ for me. Other features are nice, but if it isn't close in those categories, I'll wait for the full frame mirrorless, provided those specs are within throwing distance of the Sony equivalents. And provided Canon actually comes out with something before my kids have grandkids.

-tig

PS: As a side note, I've loved Sigma glass for some time, but I'm really emphasizing it now in lens choices, as it'll allow me to use my main glass on Sony with the new Sigma adapter. This might be my mirrorless hedge, as no one can really know how slow Canon will be.


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## Chaitanya (Jun 15, 2018)

Etienne said:


> I hope they go all-in with the M5 mk II: in body IS, good usable 4K


Since we are talking about camera Haters, this won't happen neither will adoption of USB Type-C port or UHS-II SD slots or adoption of OLED/eInk instead of prehistoric passive matrix LCD for info panel. 
Soup Nazi from Seinfeld:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2lfZg-apSA


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## fullstop (Jun 15, 2018)

Chaitanya said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > I hope they go all-in with the M5 mk II: in body IS, good usable 4K
> ...



yes, Canon Powershot firmware is only in its 4th generation. It will need at least another 4 generations until some of those points are implemented. Canon and the 21st century are not really in sync yet.  ;D


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 15, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> I sold my M5 after a few months. Gave it a go and liked it. But I need a very fast-acting camera. Turn on/focus/shoot should be extremely fast. I found the M5 sluggish, the AF not quite as fast in some situations, and - most annoyingly - the camera seemed to have about 90 percent of the computing power it needed. When I used my thumb on the screen to move the focus point, I detected occasional lags.
> 
> It took me weeks to get comfortable enough with it to realize just what was happening, but then was maddening when it did. I've been waiting since for a new one to improve that speed performance. If it has 12fps and the sensor tech that goes into the 5D4, then I might buy it as the action body that my 5D4 is really not. Much will be determined by FPS and sensor IQ for me. Other features are nice, but if it isn't close in those categories, I'll wait for the full frame mirrorless, provided those specs are within throwing distance of the Sony equivalents. And provided Canon actually comes out with something before my kids have grandkids.
> 
> ...



Can't see it being an action body tbh. More a jack of all trades. Probably a very good jack of all trades but that is it


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## -1 (Jun 15, 2018)

I'm into stills, mostly and think that the difference between the M5 and M50 should be bigger to justify the former. If I were to upgrade my original M. A M5 Mark II would be welcomed, not saying that I would buy one though...

Let's hope that Canon continues to focus on IQ and not starts o obsess themselves on winning the specs war on all fronts! The last Japanese attempt to win world domination, with friends did not end well!

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eos5dmkii&attr13_1=canon_eos70d&attr13_2=canon_eosm5&attr13_3=canon_eosm50&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=compare&widget=1&x=-0.34378423139625536&y=-0.05421728833051816


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## jolyonralph (Jun 15, 2018)

For me the biggest drawback of the EOS M5, and it's one I'm sure that none of you even realised is a problem, is the lack of support for USB tethered shooting. 

Wifi shooting just isn't good enough for multi-shot macro photography (slow, unreliable, extremely limited software support). I'd love to be able to control the camera on a Stackshot Pro using Helicon Remote, but no, i have to stick with a heavy DSLR because Canon doesn't support USB tethering.


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## fullstop (Jun 15, 2018)

Other people have noted no support for USB tethered shooting as well. 
One of many problems of the "4th generation crippled" Powershot firmware.


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## SRSW (Jun 15, 2018)

Ohhh yes! This could be my next personal camera - exciting! Great share!
Scott.


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## BillB (Jun 15, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Other people have noted no support for USB tethered shooting as well.
> One of many problems of the "4th generation crippled" Powershot firmware.



why do you keep quoting yourself? Just curious.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 15, 2018)

The new M50 has the EOS firmware again so most likely the M5 II will have that too.


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## jolyonralph (Jun 15, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The new M50 has the EOS firmware again so most likely the M5 II will have that too.



Does the M50 support USB-tethered shooting?


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 15, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> blackcoffee17 said:
> 
> 
> > The new M50 has the EOS firmware again so most likely the M5 II will have that too.
> ...



I don't have the M50 but i was told USB-tethering works perfectly.


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## Deleted member 380306 (Jun 15, 2018)

Despite all these comments and spec rumours I have little faith in Canon delivering anything worth while, it's just more camera's from a company that many of us are frustrated with yet that frustration is never listened too, I'll wait for news of the FFML but I know it will be a long wait with the result no doubt being a cut down version of what we want...


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## Orangutan (Jun 15, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> just more camera's from a company that many of us are frustrated with yet that frustration is never listened too,


What stops you from buying some other brand, then?


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## Deleted member 380306 (Jun 15, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> TonyPicture said:
> 
> 
> > just more camera's from a company that many of us are frustrated with yet that frustration is never listened too,
> ...



Large investment in class and camera TBH and I hope that they'll actually deliver a FFML that is useful, failing that I'll agree it's time to look elsewhere as a friend has sold up and jumped over to the Sony A73 he's very happy with his new investment and hasn't missed his 6d2 yet...


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## Orangutan (Jun 15, 2018)

TonyPicture said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > TonyPicture said:
> ...


I guess I don't understand: how you, as an individual, choose to spend your money is not of concern to Canon. They're interested only in the aggregate expenditure (and profits). So far, they've done better on that than other brands. Like you, I don't have the money to maintain multiple kits from different manufacturers, but I don't see that as Canon's fault or problem: they make their product choices, then I decide how (or if) to spend my money.


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## melgross (Jun 15, 2018)

If it doesn’t support tethered shooting, I wouldn’t be surprised. These aren’t intended as studio cameras, or even location oriented for production useage.

These are on the hand street, candid and walking around cameras. They’re small and lightweight for that purpose. Using them tethered basically defeats the purpose of the M series.


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## unfocused (Jun 15, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> TonyPicture said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...



Honestly, I have an even more basic lack of understanding. I don't understand what people are looking for in a camera. I like my toys as much as the next guy, or else I wouldn't be on the is forum. But, I can't figure out what it is that people think they are missing. 

From a work standpoint, yes, there are some aspects that I would like to see improved because they might help me get better shots (autofocus for example), but even in those aspects, I know that any technological improvement is only going to make a marginal difference and the thing that will really help is my improving my own skill set.

A camera is a pretty basic instrument. It takes pictures. I can't help thinking that all the things that people feel Canon is deficient in really aren't going to make any difference at all in the quality of their work.


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## unfocused (Jun 15, 2018)

melgross said:


> If it doesn’t support tethered shooting, I wouldn’t be surprised. These aren’t intended as studio cameras, or even location oriented for production useage...



When people start complaining about niche uses like tethered shooting, they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something to be unhappy about.


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## unfocused (Jun 15, 2018)

Talys said:


> I have, and love an 80D.
> 
> The reason I have wanted an M5 is 100% GAS. There is no intelligent reason for me to buy one, other than that I want to buy one



Finally, someone on this forum who is honest.


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## kiwiengr (Jun 15, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> TonyPicture said:
> 
> 
> > just more camera's from a company that many of us are frustrated with yet that frustration is never listened too,
> ...



Apparently most of the people who comment on this forum have given up on Canon and, thus, presumably buy other product.

Prior to the news release in respect of the 70~200 2.8L III, most were saying there could not be much to do in order to upgrade a damn fine lens. After the release there were multiple complaints about the lack of change.

It would seem that most are Canon bashers, aka trolls....


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## blackcoffee17 (Jun 15, 2018)

kiwiengr said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > TonyPicture said:
> ...



I think the majority were still expecting a more significant update, if not optically then in other ways. For example a new feature, a filter window in the hood, updated IS, something. Not just some coatings and a paintjob.


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## fullstop (Jun 15, 2018)

@unfocused 
a camera that does not consistently work as (reasonably) expected will ruin all the creative ideas, all the effort, all the time and energy i have invested to create a certain image and/or capture the right moment.

just a slight back-focus that went unnoticed during the shoot, and bang that stunning portrait of the stunning model is ... useless, garbage, not sharp where it should be. my Canon EOS M is a simple device. i know, it cannot capture a leopard jumping to kill that monkey, but i would expect, that the darn AF field marking on the touch LCD is NOT smaller than the actual AF field used to focus. it drives me nuts, when it focuses on a fence in the background rather than on the face in the foreground, although the (single point) af field is right there and does not extend beyond that face. shot ruined. not my fault. gear fault, stupid Canon's fault. 

or why no usb tether in the current "flagship" canon EOS mirrorless cam M5 but no prob on even low level DSLRs. why freaking limited awful dumbed-down p&s powershot firmware in any EOS camera, especially in one that costs a grand? 

correct, not everybody will ever use every feature, but still. i want to work WITH my tools to get the imagrs i'd like to get, not having to work AROUND my tools limitations or FIGHT the tools weurdnesses. so, in short: strong criticism more than justified. and no need to constantly lowball expectations and pre-emptively apologize "infallible" Canon.


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## Don Haines (Jun 15, 2018)

melgross said:


> If it doesn’t support tethered shooting, I wouldn’t be surprised. These aren’t intended as studio cameras, or even location oriented for production useage.
> 
> These are on the hand street, candid and walking around cameras. They’re small and lightweight for that purpose. Using them tethered basically defeats the purpose of the M series.




Tethered shooting is so 2017....


Wireless! That's the way to go! Your camera is going to have WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity, and quite realistically, it will be the same basic code on all the Canon cameras at the core of the functionality...


As to the concept of using such a small camera in a "tethered" shoot, when shooting a performance the audience finds it distracting when I stand in front of the band and take pictures, but with a "tethered" camera I can bury it among the gear and it is out of sight..... and with an M sized camera, I can clip it to a microphone stand, put it on the piano, clip it a music stand, or give it it's own stand and, being so small, the audience does not realize that it is there....


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## jolyonralph (Jun 15, 2018)

unfocused said:


> When people start complaining about niche uses like tethered shooting, they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something to be unhappy about.



Bullsh*t. 

You may not think it's important, and in fact I stated as such in my message. But for me this isn't a minor complaint, it's a critical application for how I wish to use the camera. 

I have no doubt that it would have almost zero commercial loss to Canon if they don't have decent tethering.

And from all accounts the M50 does, so the M5 II should too.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 15, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > When people start complaining about niche uses like tethered shooting, they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something to be unhappy about.
> ...



that's actually good news. i didn't know that and went looking for information:

_10. Send images to smartphone WHILE shooting through the app or EOS utility
The EOS M50 has the ability to continuously send images to your smartphone while you are shooting. You are then able to see at a glance what you have taken, what is sharp and what can be transferred to social platforms later on. *The camera is also the first EOS M-series camera that can also take advantage of Canon’s EOS Utility software, so that you are able to be tethered to a computer and use the large screen of your computer to accurately grab focus and fire the camera. This is great when you are shooting flatlays at home, where the camera is at an awkward position. Nearly all camera functions are available with EOS Utility and you can even fire the shutter from the software as well!*_

http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2018/eos-m50/eos-m50-listicle.shtml

that was actually important for me as well, because it allows the EOS-M's to be used as pretty much the go-to deep sky astro cameras.

that makes the M5 Mark II by itself a pretty much a mandatory "must upgrade"

My understanding when Magic lantern went hunting for a solution with the original M's and tethering that it was a problem with EOS utility more than the M's themselves. Both sides must have gotten fixed in some of their sub releases for this to work.


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## Talys (Jun 15, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



I actually don't care about smartphone tethering (not that this isn't important to other people), but tethering to PC using the full desktop application, and being able to set camera exposures and check focus on a laptop is critical to me.

In a heartbeat, I would buy a 1D priced Canon if there were that had wireless tethering that is as fast as today's USB2 tethered speeds. I would probably buy a 5D priced Canon if one came out where the USB tethering to a PC were at similar speeds to UHSII cards (like, 300MB/s using a USB3 tether).


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## melgross (Jun 15, 2018)

blackcoffee17 said:


> kiwiengr said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...



As always, I think we should wait until the tests are in. This lens is already superb. The question of what they needed to do isn’t something we can guess at.

Slight improvements in focus consistency, IS, contrast, flare, etc. All of that can be improved just enough to make the lens noticeably better. Internal changes to the mechanics won’t be advertised in a quick marketing blurb, but can also make a noticeable difference. We don’t need a completely revised optical formula every time. The closer one gets to perfection, the less one can do to improve it further, without a radical re-do, which could bring the price way up.

Notice that the price is just about where it was. I was very surprised to see that. I thought we would be looking down the barrel of $3,000, considering how much more the II was over the I.


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## melgross (Jun 15, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > When people start complaining about niche uses like tethered shooting, they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something to be unhappy about.
> ...



I honestly don’t find tethering, for this camera, to be a selling point for 99.99% of the buyers of it.

I’m not saying that I’m against it, just that it isn’t what people are going to be concerned about. You’re one of that small few.


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## Durf (Jun 15, 2018)

Talys said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > jolyonralph said:
> ...



There's times where I will happily take the time to tether to my 15" laptop rather than using the small screen on my phone via wireless. I've got a 15ft usb cord in my kit just for this purpose. 
Recently I set up to take a series of sunset shots and took all the shots tethered about 12ft away from my camera sitting in a lawn chair with my laptop on my lap and eating pretzels and having a beer all at the same time! LOL


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## Etienne (Jun 15, 2018)

melgross said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



You know the selling points for 99.99% of buyers? Wow, you must know a lot of people!


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## jolyonralph (Jun 15, 2018)

melgross said:


> jolyonralph said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



I do wish people actually read what others say before commenting. I said right at the very start that I may be the only person concerned about this (clearly I'm not, but there aren't many of us).


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## fullstop (Jun 15, 2018)

Canapologists reading and thought process stops the very second they come to the conclusion "oO, somebody seems to be criticising Canon here! Switch into combat rebuttal mode now!".  :

Like some sort of Pavlov's reflex.  

That's why i sometimes feel as if i were amongst Canon marketing people / and or shills only.


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## BillB (Jun 15, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > jolyonralph said:
> ...



It can be difficult to keep track of the bidding by page 5, especially when there are several threads addressing deficiencies of various Canon M series cameras.


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## BillB (Jun 15, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Canapologists reading and thought process stops the very second they come to the conclusion "oO, somebody seems to be criticising Canon here! Switch into combat rebuttal mode now!".  :
> 
> Like some sort of Pavlov's reflex.
> 
> That's why i sometimes feel as if i were amongst Canon marketing people / and or shills only.



Quite a few stopped clocks around here that always give the same answer.


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## Talys (Jun 15, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Canapologists reading and thought process stops the very second they come to the conclusion "oO, somebody seems to be criticising Canon here! Switch into combat rebuttal mode now!".  :
> 
> Like some sort of Pavlov's reflex.
> 
> That's why i sometimes feel as if i were amongst Canon marketing people / and or shills only.



No, you're just amongst some people who value different things than you. I suspect that you genuinely don't believe that there exist photographers who think that DSLRs are better tools than mirrorless cameras for some applications, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary - like the world cup sidelines if you turn on your TV. How many mirrorless cameras do you see there being used by the paid, professional photographers? That's not tribalism or brand loyalty - it's a simple matter of the best tool for the job at hand.

You also think it's ok for you to regurgitate the same stuff all the time, but if people replying to you using the same arguments, you accuse them of being Canon shills. By that token, are you a Sony marketing person and/or shill?

I'm here because I happen to like Canon gear and enjoy talking about photography what might come down the pipe. Why are you?


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## HarryFilm (Jun 15, 2018)

It looks like ONE of a previous announcements was PARTIALLY CONFIRMED today ( Friday, June 15, 2018) where Apple SUDDENLY ANNOUNCED a megadeal with Oprah Winfre and her production company to supply original programming for iTunes and a multitude of other Apple systems. In terms of money, it will only be about a $500 million to $1.5 Billion dollars deal, so it's really JUST A DROP IN THE BUCKET for Apple and it was NOT what I was expecting --- I was expecting a MUCH BIGGER DEAL !!! Like Apple is buying ALL of Canon for $55 Billion !!!

See following link:
https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/celebrity/oprah-winfrey-signs-mega-deal-apple-original-programming-n883656

Now, My OTHER announcement about an APS-C M5-lookalike SEEMS to also be coming true...No specific details in the main page product announcement but I do expect to see 10-bit 4:2:2 60 fps 4k video and either short flange distance OR a specialized NEW full electrical compatibility pass-through signalling and mounting accessory made by Canon for full frame lenses to go onto the new M5 lookalike! (great for low-budget production cinematographers!)

Again, at Photokina 2018 i DEFINITELY expect to see an XC-15-like one inch sensor interchangeable lens that is a combined 4K video and 20+ megapixel stills camera system perfect for film students and outdoor/harsh environment photographers!


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## Mikehit (Jun 15, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Canapologists ...



Its taken you two incarnations and three years to come up with that? How very clever of you.

I've just come up with a word to describe your diatribes....Canawhiney.


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## fullstop (Jun 15, 2018)

i am here 
1. to learn as early as possible what Canon *may* bring next. Yes, I realize it's rumors. 
2. because i am a paying Canon customer and like to share what I like and dislike about their products
3. because I have the same right as everybody else to express my opinion and criticize any company's strategies, practices and products 
4. definitely not be an "apologist". LOL. Not for Canon, and not a single bit more for Sony, Nikon, Fuji and the 7 sensor dwarfs 
5. to take part in more or less founded speculation about where (stills) imaging gear and the market as a whole is going
6. not to troll in the sense that I would write things solely to rile up others. But I don't mind if my opinions often do so. 

;D


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## Don Haines (Jun 15, 2018)

melgross said:


> blackcoffee17 said:
> 
> 
> > kiwiengr said:
> ...



It will be interesting to see how the AF speed fares.....


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## Don Haines (Jun 15, 2018)

Durf said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



HA!

I was doing the same thing from my hammock in my gazebo..... while outside the mosquitoes whined..... well, not quite the same thing, no beer and pretzels, I had beer and potato chips.....


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## Durf (Jun 15, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Durf said:
> 
> 
> > Talys said:
> ...



Yes, beer goes great with potato chips too!!! 

Sometimes it's quite nice to kick back and relax and having a large laptop monitor to dial in settings while taking multiple shots of one subject as the light changes....

I found a 15ft usb cable on amazon for 10 bucks! It sure does come in handy occasionally.

10 bucks well spent!


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## Mikehit (Jun 15, 2018)

fullstop said:


> i am here
> 1. to learn as early as possible what Canon *may* bring next. Yes, I realize it's rumors.  OK
> 2. because i am a paying Canon customer and like to share what I like and dislike about their products Fair enough. But you make assumptions about Canon's motives then criticise Canon's actions based on that hypothesis - have you ever heard of the 'straw man' argument? You also use those assumptions to say they don't know what they are doing, but they clearly do or they would stay as the number one for so long -that is not to say they are doing everything right but it means they are doing more things right than they are doing wrong. And you also ciriticise them based on your narrow egotistical view of what Canon should be giving to you personally - and instead of admitting that you take the line that you speak for untold millions.
> 3. because I have the same right as everybody else to express my opinion and criticize any company's strategies, practices and products Yes, you do. But the statments you make to support your POV show a total ignorance of product development and marketing.
> ...


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## Don Haines (Jun 16, 2018)

Durf said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Durf said:
> ...



I have an "active" 50 foot USB cable which gives me a lot of flexibility. I find that the wireless range of Canon cameras is around ten to 15 feet, so this gets me more range. I have also never connected a phone to the cameras as I find the small size of the screen to make it not worthwhile, but an iPad screen is a whole different story!


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## Talys (Jun 16, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> Durf said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Me too, and I use it. Sadly, I sent my 80D, a couple of strobes on stands, and a Microsoft Surface Book flying once when I tripped on the wire, sent everything crashing into everything else 

Amazingly, everything still worked afterwards, including the Surface Book, which dropped on the ground hard enough to separate the screen from the base. I would love a super-fast wireless instead of that cable.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 16, 2018)

fullstop said:


> i am here



...to be a Canowhiner. 

Mikehit definitely nailed it.


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## cellomaster27 (Jun 16, 2018)

Face palm......... did I have my hopes up way too much for a FF mirrorless?? wow... I don't like Sony but what other options is there? I want a canon full frame mirrorless!! :'( :'( :'(


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 16, 2018)

cellomaster27 said:


> Face palm......... did I have my hopes up way too much for a FF mirrorless?? wow... I don't like Sony but what other options is there? I want a canon full frame mirrorless!! :'( :'( :'(




No. Canon will release a FF mirrorless sooner rather than later. As for Options. You could get a Leica. or go all out with something like a GFX 50. Even better than FF. Or just get the Sony.


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## dak723 (Jun 16, 2018)

cellomaster27 said:


> Face palm......... did I have my hopes up way too much for a FF mirrorless?? wow... I don't like Sony but what other options is there? I want a canon full frame mirrorless!! :'( :'( :'(



And you can't wait another year or less? The rumors from the very start were for an announcement by the end of 2018 and release in 2019. A few rumors have mentioned a possible 2018 release. 

For heaven's sake, I thought people whining "Are we there yet?" were all under 12.


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## melgross (Jun 16, 2018)

Etienne said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > jolyonralph said:
> ...



I know enough people to know that almost none uses tethering. It’s really not that hard to extrapolate out. I get it that when someone wants a feature, they think that a lot of others do.


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## melgross (Jun 16, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > jolyonralph said:
> ...


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## Talys (Jun 16, 2018)

melgross said:


> Etienne said:
> 
> 
> > melgross said:
> ...



I would be surprised if only 1 user out of a _thousand_ who buy $1k+ cameras ("prosumer") thought tethering was a useful feature. 

I think that if the interest were that low, major camera manufacturers wouldn't be ensuring that some form of tethering capability was available for its cameras, and go to the effort of updating the tools to ensure compatibility every time there are major OS version changes that require it.


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## melgross (Jun 16, 2018)

Talys said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > Etienne said:
> ...



Once you put a computer into a product, you’re compelled to just lump more features in. Look at the menus. Pages and pages of mostly useless features. But it costs almost nothing to add them, once it’s just software. So sure, companies add features that almost no one uses, or even knows about - just because...

And tethering just sounds like a cool thing to have.


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## mb66energy (Jun 17, 2018)

Having some Canon glass I am really interested in a new solid body (200D and EOS M are my latest cameras and while fairing well not the most solid kind of bread) since the release of the 5D Mark iii .
At the moment I cannot see really interesting bodies from Canon - M50 seems to be o.k., but the only advantages compared to a 2nd 200D are EVF for some video work and the compatibility to Canon FD lenses.

But after looking at some FF work with the 5D (i) I am longing for the FF look with an updated sensor and full compatibility with my existing lenses + EVF for video + possibility to use older glass.

At the moment (lasting ~ 5 years) Canons product line saves a lot of money for me. Which is there just waiting to be spent.

Because of a missing 50mm lens with good MFD and distance scale I ordered the Yongnuo 1.8 50mm ii lens while waiting for a stabilized 50mm lens from Canon with f/1.4 max aperture. In terms of lenses for me the same situation ....


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## bwud (Jun 17, 2018)

melgross said:


> Once you put a computer into a product, you’re compelled to just lump more features in. Look at the menus. Pages and pages of mostly useless features. But it costs almost nothing to add them, once it’s just software.



Hmm.

We make software-defined radio products, developing from the circuit-board level up. The software effort almost always costs more than the hardware effort. 

Sure, software is more easily mitigated in mass production due to the low recurring costs, but "almost nothing" is a vast understatement. You have to develop a feature, integrate that feature into the code load, regression test to ensure nothing went wrong with the rest of the code - which it will so then you'll have to trouble shoot and repeat until regression testing passes. It's labor intensive.


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## Adelino (Jun 17, 2018)

melgross said:


> Talys said:
> 
> 
> > melgross said:
> ...



Plus it would be a huge feature for those who do use. But I agree probably very few people use it.


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## Talys (Jun 17, 2018)

bwud said:


> ... regression test to ensure nothing went wrong with the rest of the code - which it will so then you'll have to trouble shoot and repeat until regression testing passes.



People who aren't in the product/software development industry don't consider regression testing =X 

As you add stuff, you need to make sure it doesn't break stuff that's already there and working, and as a product becomes more complex, this becomes more and more time consuming and complicated, both to test and fix. What sometimes sounds very simple to someone unfamiliar with the project may actually add weeks of work.

In a hypothetical world, we like to think of abstraction that allows all of the different parts fit into each other using defined interfaces, and in this universe, you can change/upgrade any subassembly as long as its external interfaces remain unchanged. But in the reality of complex products, this is a fantasy.


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## Orangutan (Jun 17, 2018)

Talys said:


> bwud said:
> 
> 
> > ... regression test to ensure nothing went wrong with the rest of the code - which it will so then you'll have to trouble shoot and repeat until regression testing passes.
> ...



And if you're an honorable company, you also have to support your product by developing correct, well-written documentation, and by training your human support staff. Every feature adds incrementally to the cost of the device, as does every support call for a poorly-implemented or poorly-documented feature.


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## fullstop (Jun 17, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> Every feature adds incrementally to the cost of the device,



exactly. As I've been saying all along re. "adding video recording feature to stills cameras".


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## Orangutan (Jun 17, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Every feature adds incrementally to the cost of the device,
> ...



This is 100% true; on the other hand, failure to add video recording to a modern stills camera will hammer sales (and provoke lots of WTF! from reviewers). As you correctly suggest, it's a cost-benefit analysis: adding video clearly adds cost, but also adds far more benefit by helping to maintain sales. Increased sales has the side-effect of reducing per-unit R&D costs, which can lead to some combination of reduced prices and increased profits.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 17, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Every feature adds incrementally to the cost of the device,
> ...



Exactly. You evidently think the cost of production solely drives the MSRP. You've been missing the point all along.


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## Kit. (Jun 17, 2018)

melgross said:


> Once you put a computer into a product, you’re compelled to just lump more features in. Look at the menus. Pages and pages of mostly useless features. But it costs almost nothing to add them, once it’s just software. So sure, companies add features that almost no one uses, or even knows about - just because...
> 
> And tethering just sounds like a cool thing to have.


But tethering is not "just a feature in menu". It's an extensive modification of all software parts responsible for _hard realtime_ performance of a camera (which by itself is hard to write).

Without knowledge of Canon source code, I would guesstimate it for at least one man-year to write (and test) for one camera type, and at least one man-month to update it for a new camera model.

But I'm just a programmer, not a project manager, so my estimate is better to be multiplied by Pi.


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## slclick (Jun 17, 2018)

It seemed for a while, we had pretty decent conversations here about why some forumites wanted/needed mirrorless. Now we have regressed to the point where, folks just have GAS and can't give rational arguments and are debasing dslr's as if they do not allow the opportunity to take good images. Sorry, but if your images suck, it's you.


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## Durf (Jun 17, 2018)

slclick said:


> It seemed for a while, we had pretty decent conversations here about why some forumites wanted/needed mirrorless. Now we have regressed to the point where, folks just have GAS and can't give rational arguments and are debasing dslr's as if they do not allow the opportunity to take good images. Sorry, but if your images suck, it's you.



Many are psychologically traumatized if you do not praise and worship the mirrorless camera....


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## jolyonralph (Jun 17, 2018)

slclick said:


> It seemed for a while, we had pretty decent conversations here about why some forumites wanted/needed mirrorless. Now we have regressed to the point where, folks just have GAS and can't give rational arguments and are debasing dslr's as if they do not allow the opportunity to take good images. Sorry, but if your images suck, it's you.



75% of my images are shot on a DSLR (5DSR), the rest on mirrorless (mixture of Sony and Canon)

There are many things the DSLR does a lot better right now, if I want to ensure fast autofocus, fast tracking of moving subjects or I simply need 50 megapixels (which isn't really anything to do with the mirror), then I go for the 5DSR.

There are plenty of other reasons for using the mirrorless. I'm pretty sure the mirrorless will reach and surpass the level of focus speed and tracking that existing DSLRs do pretty soon. They have the advantage of having the full image data available to the CPU for processing, so if you're tracking a bird in flight the system of the future knows it's a bird, it knows that the head needs to be kept in focus, and if a future system does what it should do, and your lens can keep up, every shot you take of that bird in flight will be in focus. We already have focus modes for mirrorless where the eyes are detected and kept in focus. You simply can't do that with a DSLR, unless you run it in live view mode, but guess what that is...

For now, mirrorless has some catching up to do, and there are still things a traditional DSLR does better. But mirrorless has the potential to not just catch up but overtake the DSLR on pretty much everything except battery life (can't fight physics)

I wonder in ten years time how many here will be using DSLRs still?


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## Isaacheus (Jun 17, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > It seemed for a while, we had pretty decent conversations here about why some forumites wanted/needed mirrorless. Now we have regressed to the point where, folks just have GAS and can't give rational arguments and are debasing dslr's as if they do not allow the opportunity to take good images. Sorry, but if your images suck, it's you.
> ...



Just out of curiosity, what mirrorless cameras are you using currently? 

I agree with you; I think that mirror-less is getting close, but certainly not the miracle over dslr that some statements would make them out to be. I find that in my situation, the balance has tipped and the current mirror-less offerings (sony FF in this case) work better for what I want, although if the dslr bodies had a few features that the mirror-less offer, then it would really be about a dead heat between the two setups. I would have likely stayed with canon all round rather than using a mix


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 18, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> although if the dslr bodies had a few features that the mirror-less offer, then it would really be about a dead heat between the two setups.



For those such as me who sometimes prefer EVF and other times prefer OVF, I think an SLR configured with an accessible EVF could be a compelling option. Using proximity sensors it could engage lockup mode when you put your eye to the EVF, and reflex mode when you put your eye to the OVF. (Alternately maybe there is a way to mechanically insert a screen in the optical path to use the same VF for both, but it would probably be prohibitively complicated.)

That would be a best of both worlds configuration, minus the ability to make a locally thinner camera body. For some, size is the holy grail, but IMO those folks are better served with smaller sensors and smaller lenses to cover them than by chasing an inch or so at the lens mount and pairing a full frame format with a relatively slow lens to keep the size down.


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## RGF (Jun 18, 2018)

to me the differences between mirrorless and dSLR weight (mirrorless wins, hands down) and functionality. The latter could be a tie but right now the clear winner for my type of photography (wildlife, big glass - mostly) is dSLR.

If Canon had a mirrorless that would accept current lens, and EVF that matched OVF (a challenge, I know), same/similar AF, DR, FPS (ML could win this due to lack of a mirror), then I would be interested.

The form of the camera is less important to me than its features. Size (and hence weights) is a double edged sword, I like feel of the 1D sized camera but not the weight of it.


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## Woody (Jun 18, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> EC811 Canon EOS M5 Mark II
> 28.3MP APS-C mirorless camera
> [email protected] video and DPAF.
> This camera features a new Canon APS-C sensor



I will be keen on this camera *ONLY IF* its dynamic range matches that in the latest Sony/Nikon APS-C sensors.


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## Kit. (Jun 18, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> You simply can't do that with a DSLR, unless you run it in live view mode,


Of course, you can.

You can use a dedicated "AI vision" sensor at the bottom of the mirrorbox. Nikon already did something like that in F5 (a film camera).


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## Talys (Jun 18, 2018)

RGF said:


> to me the differences between mirrorless and dSLR weight (mirrorless wins, hands down) and functionality. The latter could be a tie but right now the clear winner for my type of photography (wildlife, big glass - mostly) is dSLR.
> 
> If Canon had a mirrorless that would accept current lens, and EVF that matched OVF (a challenge, I know), same/similar AF, DR, FPS (ML could win this due to lack of a mirror), then I would be interested.
> 
> The form of the camera is less important to me than its features. Size (and hence weights) is a double edged sword, I like feel of the 1D sized camera but not the weight of it.



This describes me, precisely


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## fullstop (Jun 18, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> For those such as me who sometimes prefer EVF and other times prefer OVF, I think an SLR configured with an accessible EVF could be a compelling option. Using proximity sensors it could engage lockup mode when you put your eye to the EVF, and reflex mode when you put your eye to the OVF. (Alternately maybe there is a way to mechanically insert a screen in the optical path to use the same VF for both, but it would probably be prohibitively complicated.)
> 
> That would be a best of both worlds configuration, minus the ability to make a locally thinner camera body. For some, size is the holy grail, but IMO those folks are better served with smaller sensors and smaller lenses to cover them than by chasing an inch or so at the lens mount and pairing a full frame format with a relatively slow lens to keep the size down.



To me it is exactly the other way round. A big camera with mirror is "worst of both worlds". 

A small mirrorless body would be best of both worlds to me. Most of the time I'd be using it in a small setup with compact f/4 zooms or even ultra-compact, moderately fast primes. And when needed, but only then, I can put battery grip, rigs, cages of any sort and size for any sort of purpose on it. It is so easy to make a camera physically bigger but impossible to make it physically smaller. 

Size is not everything, but I will happily take smallest possible size, as it does not mean "sacrifice" in IQ and/or performance.


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## Mikehit (Jun 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Size is not everything, but I will happily take smallest possible size, as it does not mean "sacrifice" in IQ and/or performance.



And that is what many mirrorless -obsessed forget. Make it physically as small as possible you end up with tortuous menus and little squishy buttons instead of easy-to-adjust dials and large click-stop buttons. Making adjustments with dials and solid-feel buttons is easy without taking the camera from my eye and that is the sort of 'performance' important to me and to many others. Not to mention in cold weather wearing gloves.


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## Kit. (Jun 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> To me it is exactly the other way round. A big camera with mirror is "worst of both worlds".
> 
> A small mirrorless body would be best of both worlds to me. Most of the time I'd be using it in a small setup with compact f/4 zooms or even ultra-compact, moderately fast primes. And when needed, but only then, I can put battery grip, rigs, cages of any sort and size for any sort of purpose on it. It is so easy to make a camera physically bigger but impossible to make it physically smaller.


The "worst of both worlds" is a camera that is is small enough to make its controls uncomfortable, but still not small enough to comfortably fit into your pocket.

And that's exactly what your "small mirrorless body" is.


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## fullstop (Jun 18, 2018)

it does not need to fit in my pocket. As long as it fits into a LowePro Dashpoint 30 with a compact zoom or a prime lens i am fine. Dashpoint is attached to left front strap of my backpack. Works perfectly well - hands-free and camera always readily available when needed. And if camera + lens are light enough, you won't notice the extra weight on one side. 

As to physical control points / ergonomic layout: not trivial to do "really right" on a smaller body, but possible. Innovative Canon should/will be able to get it done, if they really focus on it. Not to forget: touch LCD and smart display of info in viewfinder helps a lot towards that objective.


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## Kit. (Jun 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> it does not need to fit in my pocket.


Then it doesn't need to be small.

Either it fits in my pocket, or it fits in my Tamrac Evolution 9.

Or it stays in the car.


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## Mikehit (Jun 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> it does not need to fit in my pocket. As long as it fits into a LowePro Dashpoint 30 with a compact zoom or a prime lens i am fine. Dashpoint is attached to left front strap of my backpack. Works perfectly well - hands-free and camera always readily available when needed. And if camera + lens are light enough, you won't notice the extra weight on one side.
> 
> As to physical control points / ergonomic layout: not trivial to do "really right" on a smaller body, but possible. Innovative Canon should/will be able to get it done, if they really focus on it. Not to forget: touch LCD and smart display of info in viewfinder helps a lot towards that objective.



'small' means different things to different people - give us dimensions.
So you want a FF camera with lens to fit in a Dashoint 30 - a bag that is too small to even take an Olympus EPL-7 as many would want it? And no second lanes? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAJ7XSx-6C4

Your comments get more ludicrous as you go on.


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## Durf (Jun 18, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > it does not need to fit in my pocket. As long as it fits into a LowePro Dashpoint 30 with a compact zoom or a prime lens i am fine. Dashpoint is attached to left front strap of my backpack. Works perfectly well - hands-free and camera always readily available when needed. And if camera + lens are light enough, you won't notice the extra weight on one side.
> ...



WOW! one could fit a gopro and a couple of batteries in that bag!

Awesome!


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## Cory (Jun 18, 2018)

Really gave the M50 a good go, but went back to 100% DSLR for a few reasons. To make a short story shorter - simplicity won out and I'm now all DSLR all the time. 
On a side note, and probably more my fault than anything else, but I did an event on Saturday and did a remarkable 4 minute interview with a superhero-of-epic-proportions Veteran and must have not turned on the mic. I'm a little beside myself and that may have not happened if I wasn't fiddling with 2 ****** cameras.
To say "******" is sugar-coating my real thoughts on this. I nearly threw up.


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## Ian_of_glos (Jun 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > For those such as me who sometimes prefer EVF and other times prefer OVF, I think an SLR configured with an accessible EVF could be a compelling option. Using proximity sensors it could engage lockup mode when you put your eye to the EVF, and reflex mode when you put your eye to the OVF. (Alternately maybe there is a way to mechanically insert a screen in the optical path to use the same VF for both, but it would probably be prohibitively complicated.)
> ...


I agree completely, but luckily there are some very small, mirrorless cameras available that can easily slip into your pocket for those occasions when you do not want to carry around an interchangeable lens camera with a selection of lenses. The Sony RX100 looks particularly interesting and now that the price of the RX100 mk 3 has just fallen it makes it a very attractive option.
When image quality is more important than convenience many of us have already invested in a large selection of Canon DSLRs, lenses and other accessories that more than meet our needs.
The mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras fall somewhere in the middle - too large to fit in your pocket but not yet able to match a DSLR for durability or for the range of lenses and other accessories.


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## melgross (Jun 18, 2018)

Kit. said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > Once you put a computer into a product, you’re compelled to just lump more features in. Look at the menus. Pages and pages of mostly useless features. But it costs almost nothing to add them, once it’s just software. So sure, companies add features that almost no one uses, or even knows about - just because...
> ...



As a programmer then, you should know that much of that development is valid for a number of different cameras, lowering the cost per product. While each camera is different, they share enough code to spread those costs around. And incremental features cost far less.


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## Kit. (Jun 18, 2018)

melgross said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > But tethering is not "just a feature in menu". It's an extensive modification of all software parts responsible for _hard realtime_ performance of a camera (which by itself is hard to write).
> ...


That's what I said. Not less than one man-month to adapt the existing tethering implementation code for a new model in the line. Still ~10x cheaper than to develop it from scratch, still not cheap enough to put it into every camera line.


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## Orangutan (Jun 18, 2018)

Kit. said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > Kit. said:
> ...



Maybe a lot less than that -- possibly just hours, or even just the addition a few items to static array initialization. If you want to dig in you might look at the source code for this project (I have not). 

http://digicamcontrol.com/cameras


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> A small mirrorless body would be best of both worlds to me.



Well, it would be the best of one world, not both , since to have any of the discriminating features you need a mirror. I understand you don’t like OVF and sensors purpose built for given functions, so obviously you wouldn’t be in the market for the configuration I described.

Here you go: small mirrorless body. It even takes interchangeable lenses.
https://www.amazon.com/Canon-EOS-Mirrorless-Camera-Body/dp/B01LWUQDHJ




fullstop said:


> . And when needed, but only then, I can put battery grip, rigs, cages of any sort and size for any sort of purpose on it. It is so easy to make a camera physically bigger but impossible to make it physically smaller.



Yes, you can’t make a camera smaller. Similarly, adding size doesn’t add functionality. 

While I’m not a video guy so have never done it, adding cages and ribs sounds like a pain. Personally, I’d rather own two cameras (one big, one small) than try to build one up on a case by case basis. I fact, I have cameras in three sizes: 1Dx, 5D3, and the mirrorless camera I’m typing this reply on. It fits in my pocket, but barely!


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## Orangutan (Jun 18, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> fullstop said:
> 
> 
> > To me it is exactly the other way round. A big camera with mirror is "worst of both worlds".
> ...


This is the heart of the matter: with AvTvM/Fullstop, his world *is* all worlds.


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## fullstop (Jun 18, 2018)

Sony RX-1R II will easily fit in a Lowepro Dashpoint 30. 
Have not tried Sony A7 1st gen with 35/2.8, but it might just fit as well. 

As I have repeatedly written, I would consider Sony A7 (1st gen, not Mk. II or III) size or even a bit smaller a "SMALL" FF mirrorless camera size. 

Or in other words, I am looking to buy a mirrorless cam that is the exact opposite of a Panasonic GH5: 
* "big" FF sensor in a small shell
* optimized for stills, nothing "videotic"
* range-finder form factor preferred, instead of "mini DSLR" 
* smart pop-up EVF [as on Sony RX-100 Mk. 6) instead of ugly "Quasimodo viewfinder hump" 
* best available battery pack that will fit - instead of a whimpy LP-E12 


Now, is this "precise enough" for you? 

If not, I can happily supply a longer , precise list of "target specs". ECF v2.0 is one of them, instead of AF-selector nipple. Saves precious space on a small camera body.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 18, 2018)

That’s quite alright. Seemingly every post has new desirements (pop up EVF is new to me), and the crack development teams at Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Hasselblad, PhaseOne, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax, etc. who monitor you as a spokesman for the market are getting stressed out by all the engineering changes. Plus they don’t want to marketingnerf their cameras just to make them small.


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## Talys (Jun 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Sony RX-1R II will easily fit in a Lowepro Dashpoint 30.
> Have not tried Sony A7 1st gen with 35/2.8, but it might just fit as well.
> 
> As I have repeatedly written, I would consider Sony A7 (1st gen, not Mk. II or III) size or even a bit smaller a "SMALL" FF mirrorless camera size.
> ...



So, go buy it:


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## fullstop (Jun 18, 2018)

too big, heavy and expensive. And no EVF. Leica M is essentially a mechanical camera with "electronic film" in it. I want an electronic camera with no mechanics in it.


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## Durf (Jun 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> too big, heavy and expensive. And no EVF. Leica M is essentially a mechanical camera with "electronic film" in it. I want an electronic camera with no mechanics in it.



You should consider switching over to Nikon....


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## ahsanford (Jun 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> too big, heavy and expensive. And no EVF. Leica M is essentially a mechanical camera with "electronic film" in it. I want an electronic camera with no mechanics in it.



That's not an M. It's a Q. It has an EVF.

But yes, it has a mechanical shutter and is not the lightweight little plastic thing you want.

- A


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## fullstop (Jun 18, 2018)

Leica Q? And where is the EVF? ;-)

That Nikon D70 is ... too old.


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## ahsanford (Jun 18, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Leica Q? And where is the EVF? ;-)



You could Google it, you know. :

- A


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## fullstop (Jun 18, 2018)

ah yes make me google that leica POS. It has a viewfinder. And a bolted-on 28 mm lens. No lens mount. Fail. 

And if I were to waste that amount of money on a fixed lens camera I'd definitely take the Sony RX-1R II over that Leica thing.


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## puffo25 (Jun 19, 2018)

Hi, I a am wondering if it is true that we have to wait at least 1 full year (or longer) before see the new high end Canon flagship top notch camera to replace the EOS 1 DX Mark II

According to this link http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-1d-x-mk3-info-rumours/ this should happen NOT before end of 2019....

Anyone has any info on this or possible some interesting early specs?

The current camera is great BUT Nikon seams a bit better in the darklight/low light conditions and so I hope the new Canon will focus improvement in that area.

Regards.
Andrea


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## BillB (Jun 19, 2018)

fullstop said:


> ah yes make me google that leica POS. It has a viewfinder. And a bolted-on 28 mm lens. No lens mount. Fail.
> 
> And if I were to waste that amount of money on a fixed lens camera I'd definitely take the Sony RX-1R II over that Leica thing.



I would never buy a Q, but I do find the design tradeoffs intriguing. FF, small, light, great IQ, and no bump on the top. You can't swap lenses, but you can crop and zoom with your feet. What is the killer lens that you would want to be able to put on a Q anyway? It would add weight and bulk, just a question of how much. And I could never trust a popup viewfinder design. Compared to that, battery size is no big deal.


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## fullstop (Jun 19, 2018)

ofc only my personal preference: but i do find cameras with a fixed lens a perversion, especially when it is a prime focal lens and not even a zoom. 

"zoom with your feet" = sometimes possible, but often not. 
"crop" = hardly ever as good as getting the desired framing "optically" at time of capture; to me really only a last stop measure in "focal length limited situations". 

Which lens I would like to use on a small FF mirrorless cam? Any! By mounting them on lens mount. 

My lens preferences are 
* 3 "as compact as possible" constant f/4 zooms - e.g. EF-X 16-35, 24-70, 50-150 all IS STM of course
* plus a set of 3 ultra-compact primes eg. : EF-X 20/2.8 (my "landscape and indoors pancake"), EF-X 40/2.0 [my "walkaround pancake"], 85/2.4 IS STM [my "portrait ultra-compact"]. 

Done. Will not buy any other lenses, only rent on the rare occasions when I really need them. 

PS: I like what Samyang has started with their new AF lenses. Their AF 24/2.8 is right down my alley in terms of size and price.


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## BillB (Jun 19, 2018)

fullstop said:


> ofc only my personal preference: but i do find cameras with a fixed lens a perversion, especially when it is a prime focal lens and not even a zoom.
> 
> "zoom with your feet" = sometimes possible, but often not.
> "crop" = hardly ever as good as getting the desired framing "optically" at time of capture; to me really only a last stop measure in "focal length limited situations".
> ...



Cropping does produce a hit on IQ, but how important is it if you have a couple of dozen megapixels and you are not making prints larger than A3? It is about tradeoffs.


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## Kit. (Jun 19, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > melgross said:
> ...


That's just a Windows PC client.


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## Orangutan (Jun 19, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Kit. said:
> ...


Yes, but it gives you a clue regarding the API. If you want info from the other perspective, look at the Magic Lantern source and discussion forums -- that'll tell you how much internal similarity there is from one model to the next. The few times I've looked at ML, most of the discussion is about figuring out how to hook in to the firmware of a new model, not how to get it to work once hooked.

Anyway, you made an off-the-cuff guess as to how much time/effort would be involved, and I pointed you to resources that would give you more information about what would really be involved. It's up to you now to decide whether you want to be informed or not.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 19, 2018)

fullstop said:


> My lens preferences are
> * 3 "as compact as possible" constant f/4 zooms - e.g. EF-X 16-35, 24-70, 50-150 all IS STM of course
> * plus a set of 3 ultra-compact primes eg. : EF-X 20/2.8 (my "landscape and indoors pancake"), EF-X 40/2.0 [my "walkaround pancake"], 85/2.4 IS STM [my "portrait ultra-compact"].



You could make them even smaller and lighter as fixed focal length, fixed small aperture, fixed focal point non-IS “solid state” lenses to go along with your distaste for moving parts!




fullstop said:


> Done. Will not buy any other lenses, only rent on the rare occasions when I really need them.



Boy, sounds like a customer I’d want to cater to


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 19, 2018)

puffo25 said:


> Hi, I a am wondering if it is true that we have to wait at least 1 full year (or longer) before see the new high end Canon flagship top notch camera to replace the EOS 1 DX Mark II
> 
> Anyone has any info on this...?
> Andrea



Hi Andrea - 

Canon could announce a 1Dxiii or 1Dsiv or 1M or whatever today. At this point, predictions are based on past trends, not inside information.


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## fullstop (Jun 19, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Boy, sounds like a customer I’d want to cater to



hmmm ... so you are saying ... Canon does not need customers willing to purchase 1 Canon EOS FF mirrorless camera + 3 EF-X f/4 zooms + 3 EF-X primes ... and then take some break ... until next body upgrade ... 
;D ;D ;D

Well methinks not even Canon would be so stupid and arrogant.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 19, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Boy, sounds like a customer I’d want to cater to
> ...



I missed that it was six lenses, not three.


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## Keith_Reeder (Jun 19, 2018)

fullstop said:


> hmmm ... so you are saying ... Canon does not need customers willing to purchase 1 Canon EOS FF mirrorless camera + 3 EF-X f/4 zooms + 3 EF-X primes ... and then take some break ... until next body upgrade ...
> ;D ;D ;D


No, he's just saying that _he'd_ like customers that easy to please...



> Well methinks not even Canon would be so stupid and arrogant.


There's _very_ little about Canon's behaviour to suggest that they're either.

Forum members, though? Plenty of evidence.


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## fullstop (Jun 19, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I missed that it was six lenses, not three.



yep. f/4 for zooms, f/2.8 or a bit faster for primes.


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## Durf (Jun 19, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Boy, sounds like a customer I’d want to cater to
> ...



Constantly wishing and hoping for things that don't exist can be a bit frustrating and often simply just a waste of time. 

It would probably be best to enjoy using and getting the most out of the gear that you do have and possibly working towards upgrades that actually do exist in this reality.


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## fullstop (Jun 19, 2018)

Durf said:


> It would probably be best to enjoy using and getting the most out of the gear that you do have



I do.



Durf said:


> and possibly working towards upgrades that actually do exist in this reality.



I don't. I boycot them. Until they do.


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## Kit. (Jun 19, 2018)

Orangutan said:


> Kit. said:
> 
> 
> > Orangutan said:
> ...


If you had a clue about the efforts involved to create a server for such API in hard-realtime environment, you wouldn't try to point me to a Windows PC client.



Orangutan said:


> If you want info from the other perspective, look at the Magic Lantern source and discussion forums -- that'll tell you how much internal similarity there is from one model to the next. The few times I've looked at ML, most of the discussion is about figuring out how to hook in to the firmware of a new model, not how to get it to work once hooked.


For which model exactly did Magic Lantern implement tethering that was absent in the stock firmware?

And Magic Lantern gives you no guarantee at all that what they do won't break things.



Orangutan said:


> Anyway, you made an off-the-cuff guess as to how much time/effort would be involved, and I pointed you to resources that would give you more information about what would really be involved.


They give _zero_ information on the topic.


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## unfocused (Jun 19, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > Kit. said:
> ...



You are kind of rude considering I think he was trying to be helpful.


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## Orangutan (Jun 20, 2018)

Kit. said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > snip
> ...


That's not the question. The question is how hard is it for Canon to make the change, given that they have all the engineering specs and source code. That Windows client and ML firmware might give you important indirect information. I have not looked at their code, but I pointed them out to you because you seemed interested. If you look at their source code you might well find the clues you're looking for. Until then, your claims are just speculation.

My speculation is that they choose their CPUs in part to make model changes easier and more robust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIGIC


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## stevelee (Jun 20, 2018)

Of these three cameras, the one that might interest me is the G7X Mark III. If it is enough of an upgrade for the money, it is likely the next camera I will buy, probably before my next big trip, whenever that might be.

I've been extremely pleased with the G7X II and am in no rush to upgrade it, so if and when for an upgrade can be decided when I have much more information.

I have no need or interest in a new DSLR or mirrorless body any time in the foreseeable future. The new 100-400mm is my new toy, and if I need anything longer, I'll get a 1.4X for it, but don't anticipate that. My next lens purchase will be the 16mm-35mm f/4, since I don't have anything wider for FF than 24mm.


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## rrcphoto (Jun 20, 2018)

everyone has gone crazy over the M5 Mark II and no one has really commented on the fact that this will be Canon's first fully made 1" sensor camera.

Canon making competitive 1" sensors with DPAF could change the narrative for those cameras especially if they manage to keep the costs low especially with Sony's now costing $1200 a pop for a RX100


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## rrcphoto (Jun 21, 2018)

Kit. said:


> melgross said:
> 
> 
> > Kit. said:
> ...



ML did a review of the tethering problem when the M came out. I can't find the thread anymore or the comment, but I recall it being a problem with the legacy code in EOS Utility, that it was built for a 30 fps framerate, and the M's were faster than that in liveview (60 i believe, with the M5 up to 120 fps), and there was a huge complexity for the change, so Canon simply to get the camera out elected to disable tethering in the camera itself was their prognosis.

also at the time ML stated that they would NEVER re-enable a feature that Canon disabled.


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## fullstop (Jun 21, 2018)

yep. Typical ML. No balls. One of the reasons i never cared about ML and don't respect them really. I like the Yongnuos, Meikes and Samyangs much better in that respect. They don't give a damn if some Canon lawyer sends a letter or not.


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## BillB (Jun 21, 2018)

fullstop said:


> yep. Typical ML. No balls. One of the reasons i never cared about ML and don't respect them really. I like the Yongnuos, Meikes and Samyangs much better in that respect. They don't give a damn if some Canon lawyer sends a letter or not.



And you know all this how?


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## fullstop (Jun 21, 2018)

it is evident. 

ML don't touch this [!D eeries cams for example], ML don't do that [re-enabling certain functions when nerfed by Canon], ML knee jerks as soon as Canon all but bats an eye.


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## BillB (Jun 21, 2018)

fullstop said:


> it is evident.
> 
> ML don't touch this [!D eeries cams for example], ML don't do that [re-enabling certain functions when nerfed by Canon], ML knee jerks as soon as Canon all but bats an eye.



Thank you. And the part about how the other guys don't care whether a Canon lawyer sends them a letter or not?


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## fullstop (Jun 21, 2018)

i very much doubt Yongnuo, Meike or Samyang got official licenses for IP from Canon.  
While I don't work for any of them, I'd be very surprised if they not all have gotten some "love letters" from Canon legal department/lawyers on various occasions. Not on Valentine's day, but following their product announcements.


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## BillB (Jun 21, 2018)

fullstop said:


> i very much doubt Yongnuo, Meike or Samyang got official licenses for IP from Canon.
> While I don't work for any of them, I'd be very surprised if they not all have gotten some "love letters" from Canon legal department/lawyers on various occasions. Not on Valentine's day, but following their product announcements.



Thanks for clearing that up. Fantasy letters.


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