# Benefits of a 600RT system ...



## J.R. (Jan 29, 2014)

Hi,

I am pleased with the Elinchroms I recently bought but am not interested in buying a battery to use them outdoors. I'm looking to invest in a speedlight system where I don't need to upgrade anything other than probably add the odd speedlight in future. 

People sing praises of the 600RT system. Can you please provide me with a link to a resource which explains the usage and the benefits of this system detail. Any other advise is most welcome. 

Thanks in advance ... J.R. 

Edit: I do have a 430EX II and have funds to get 600 EX x 2 at the moment.


----------



## Zv (Jan 29, 2014)

J.R. said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am pleased with the Elinchroms I recently bought but am not interested in buying a battery to use them outdoors. I'm looking to invest in a speedlight system where I don't need to upgrade anything other than probably add the odd speedlight in future.
> 
> ...



The benefits of the 600 EX RT is in the built in radio transceivers. If you only buy one theres not much point but if you plan on a multi speedlite set up then it becomes very useful indeed. 

For example - one 600EX on camera as master and possibly fill. One as key light and one as background separation. Then you can control the power levels for each light from the master itself. I think you can also mix ettl with manual (I could be mistaken). 

The main issue I have with this set up is cost. Three 600EX RT will set you back almost $1500!! 

There are other options that can do the same thing but cheaper. Notably Phottix Odin and Yongnuo. 

If you combine Phottix Odin with Phottix Mitros+ speedlites you get the same thing as the Canon RT system. But the two systems aren't compatible. So you have to commit to Phottix. 

See here for the full review 

http://flashhavoc.com/phottix-odin-ttl-trigger-review/

Or if you get the Yongnuo YNE3 transmitter you can use the Canon RT system and Yongnuo flashes if you want. See here. It's coming soon. 

http://flashhavoc.com/yn-e3-rt-adds-remote-manual-for-non-canon-cameras/

And the flash

http://flashhavoc.com/yongnuo-yn-e3-rt-released-yn-600ex-rt-coming/


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 29, 2014)

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-600EX-RT-Speedlite-Flash-Review.aspx

But…for outdoor use you need to consider carefully. A monolight has substantially more power than a Speedlite. While the power profiles are different enough that it's not possible to compare the GN rating of a hotshoe flash with the power rating of a monolight, a reasonable approximation is that the 580/600 flash output is in the 60-80 Ws range, compared to the 400 Ws of the Elinchrom monolight that I think you picked up. Many people who use flash to overpower sunlight with a modifier like a softbox that costs a couple of stops of light find they need to use 2-4 Speedlites in that soft box to get sufficient power.


----------



## Harry Muff (Jan 30, 2014)

If you're really serious about using a powerful strobe outdoors but without spending the thousands it usually costs, take a look at the Bowens heads and, specifically, the TravelPak that powers them outdoors. I picked up my 500R head for $525 and the battery pack for $384. I also grabbed a spare battery for it for $160.


Combined, they'll see me get north of 400 shots on location without breaking the bank. The only concessions are no modelling lamp and a longer recycling time. 


The pack is pretty small though.




Or you could blow $7000 just on a pro power pack... 8)


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 30, 2014)

J.R. said:


> Edit: I do have a 430EX II and have funds to get 600 EX x 2 at the moment.



My advice is to wait for Yongnu's recently announced 600rt clones which should cut the price to 1/3rd of the Canon original, at least judging from their recently released st-e3 clone. Your 430ex will be useless though since there are no dedicated triggers available, and the 600rts can only operate in optical *or* radio mode.



neuroanatomist said:


> Many people who use flash to overpower sunlight with a modifier like a softbox that costs a couple of stops of light find they need to use 2-4 Speedlites in that soft box to get sufficient power.



My experience is that even a single speedlite helps a lot, esp. when @max zoom setting and not being shot in hss mode - you've then got the data to raise the shadows in post, even if it's a bit of work. The downside is that shooting the flash @max power shortens the life expectancy a lot, I recently fried my 600rt for this reason after 1.5 years (but got the flash head replaced on warranty).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 30, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Many people who use flash to overpower sunlight *with a modifier like a softbox that costs a couple of stops of light *find they need to use 2-4 Speedlites in that soft box to get sufficient power.
> ...



How does max zoom on the flash head help if the flash is firing inside a softbox?

Also, when you talk about 'raising the shadows' it sounds to me like you're talking about using flash for fill, whereas I'm talking about overpowering the ambient, e.g., using strobe as key and sun as fill (part or all). Yes, a single Speedlite can work for fill, even in a softbox. However, as you say, you need to avoid HSS, and knocking bright sun down to 1/200 or 1/250 s means a narrow aperture (not usually desirable in outdoor portraiture) or an ND filter - either of which means you need even more light from the flash.


----------



## Zv (Jan 31, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Yup. We're talkin f/16 through a softbox in the middle of the day. That takes a lot of juice. For the cost of even one additional 600 EXRT speedlite it's cheaper to go with the strobes and battery pack or monoblock. 

Then again ganging 3 YN 560 III speedlites together and fire through an umbrella is also pretty cheap and portable. That's my solution.


----------



## J.R. (Jan 31, 2014)

Thanks a lot for the replies and a number of good points I've understood. I really like the 400W Elinchroms but for outdoor shooting I need a rather heavy battery which I am unwilling to lug around. 

I've ordered the pack of 600EX II x 2 plus the ST-RT-3 transmitter from B&H. Just wondering how does my 430EX-II fit into the system now. Will it work with the RT System or will I have to limit it as an optical slave?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jan 31, 2014)

J.R. said:


> Just wondering how does my 430EX-II fit into the system now. Will it work with the RT System or will I have to limit it as an optical slave?



The 430EX II will fit in nicely...if you need a paperweight or a doorstop. 

Ok, I exaggerate. But, the ST-E3-RT cannot control it at all. You could trigger it with a 600 as an on-camera master in optical mode, controlling both the 430 and the other 600. The only way to use all three flashes off camera would be to add hardware to the 430 to make it a dumb optical slave - a Sonia green optical slave trigger and a PC-to-hotshoe adapter (no other input port on the 430). You couldn't use E-TTL with that setup, only manual (the preflash would trigger the 430).


----------



## J.R. (Jan 31, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Just wondering how does my 430EX-II fit into the system now. Will it work with the RT System or will I have to limit it as an optical slave?
> ...



Haha ... Thanks Neuro, this was exactly what I was fearing. The 430EX-II will go down as another fine example of myself buying (cheaper) gear only to upgrade later with the old stuff getting redundant. 



neuroanatomist said:


> Ok, I exaggerate. But, the ST-E3-RT cannot control it at all. You could trigger it with a 600 as an on-camera master in optical mode, controlling both the 430 and the other 600. The only way to use all three flashes off camera would be to add hardware to the 430 to make it a dumb optical slave - a Sonia green optical slave trigger and a PC-to-hotshoe adapter (no other input port on the 430). You couldn't use E-TTL with that setup, only manual (the preflash would trigger the 430).



I guess it will be too much trouble. The risk/reward ratio doesn't really add up for me. I'd rather put up the 430EX on sale to partly fund the 600s I just bought.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 31, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> How does max zoom on the flash head help if the flash is firing inside a softbox? Also, when you talk about 'raising the shadows' it sounds to me like you're talking about using flash for fill, whereas I'm talking about overpowering the ambient, e.g., using strobe as key and sun as fill (part or all).



Good we talked about that  ... you're correct, I'm talking about fill as the op didn't specify what this requirements are.


----------



## Janbo Makimbo (Jan 31, 2014)

The definitive link

http://pixsylated.com/blog/canon-speedlite-slave-set-up-600ex-rt-radio-slave/


----------



## bholliman (Feb 1, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Just wondering how does my 430EX-II fit into the system now. Will it work with the RT System or will I have to limit it as an optical slave?
> ...



I just picked up my second 600EX-RT during the recent Adorama $420 sale. Now I'm experimenting with different two and three flash set-ups including my 430EXII. I can use the 430 as a third flash if I use the 600 as an optical master. I have an OC Gear 32' ETTL cable, so can use my "on-camera" master, off-camera as Syl Arena describes in his book. This works pretty well, essentially giving me the ability to actually use the master to provide more than fill light. Of course, including the 430 means I can't use the superior radio triggering with all its advantages. 

Eventually, I'll get a third 600EX and either a ST-E3-RT or the Yongnuo equivalent, but I'll work with what I have for now. I'll hang onto my 430EXII to use on-camera when I want to bounce flash and don't want to mess with multiple speedlites.


----------



## J.R. (Feb 1, 2014)

bholliman said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > J.R. said:
> ...



Thanks ... That was my impression also. I've sold the 430ex earlier today. I will get another 600 if the need arises.


----------



## Zv (Feb 2, 2014)

J.R. said:


> bholliman said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



In this day and age of built in radio tx the 430 EX II is starting to look less useful. Unless you only use one flash in ETTL on camera only, it kinda blows. Been thinking about selling mine too. My Yongnuo flashes are just way more useable.


----------



## Viggo (Feb 2, 2014)

The Elinchrom Quadra isn't very heavy, but for me the battery pack doubles as weight to avoid the whole thing flipping over. And 400ws is pretty nice in the sun where my speedlite lacks. I used to have two speedlites with triggers and that is 14 batteries that always ran out at the worst possible time, and very time consuming to charge. With the Quadra there's ONE battery and that's it. Is it cheap? Neh, but 4 speedlites isn't either...


----------



## Nicolai.b (Feb 2, 2014)

I would love to see a studio flash that´s compatible with the Canon flash system, that would be super nice!


----------



## silvestography (Feb 2, 2014)

Nicolai.b said:


> I would love to see a studio flash that´s compatible with the Canon flash system, that would be super nice!



http://flashhavoc.com/yongnuo-rt-studio-light-solution/
There might just be one in the making...


----------



## unfocused (Feb 2, 2014)

Standard warning here: Speedlites are gateway drugs. If you don't watch yourself, you'll wake up one morning with five 600 RTs next to you in bed and you won't remember how you got there. 

On a more serious note, you need to factor in battery packs when buying. I wouldn't take any Speedlite on location without a battery pack. If the Yongnuo knockoffs don't have an external battery pack option, it will greatly diminish their usefulness as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 2, 2014)

silvestography said:


> http://flashhavoc.com/yongnuo-rt-studio-light-solution/ There might just be one in the making...


That's terrific, thanks for the link - it puts Canon to shame, but on the other hand Canon should thank Yongnuo if they really pull the rt system out of isolation and marry it with studio lights.



unfocused said:


> If you don't watch yourself, you'll wake up one morning with five 600 RTs next to you in bed and you won't remember how you got there.


No way, even drunk @3%o crawling on the floor I'd realize that this adds up to too much money :-\ ... go, Yongnuo, go!



unfocused said:


> On a more serious note, you need to factor in battery packs when buying. I wouldn't take any Speedlite on location without a battery pack. If the Yongnuo knockoffs don't have an external battery pack option, it will greatly diminish their usefulness as far as I'm concerned.


... and be sure to have a good power plug attachment to the flash because if it wobbles and re-connects with the flash on it could fry it, that's why I have a burnt ext. powerpack connector on one of my 600rt units :-(


----------



## Viggo (Feb 2, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> silvestography said:
> 
> 
> > http://flashhavoc.com/yongnuo-rt-studio-light-solution/ There might just be one in the making...
> ...



I use Godox Propac PB820, and find them excellent, except the power connector, it's way too hard to pull off and push in, so I try to just leave it there as much as I can...


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 2, 2014)

Viggo said:


> I use Godox Propac PB820, and find them excellent, except the power connector, it's way too hard to pull off and push in, so I try to just leave it there as much as I can...



Praise them, that is what you *want* as there's no arresting hook - with my powerpack, the plug is too loose so it pops out now and then again, and if you're in a hurry and just re-plug it ... well, bye bye flash pcb :-(


----------



## Viggo (Feb 2, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > I use Godox Propac PB820, and find them excellent, except the power connector, it's way too hard to pull off and push in, so I try to just leave it there as much as I can...
> ...



It really should have a locking screw or something... It really needs to stay put.


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 2, 2014)

Viggo said:


> It really should have a locking screw or something... It really needs to stay put.



Indeed, I understand this is a somewhat standardized port, but for a €500 flash unit this usability is really very bothersome - even though I'm aware of the danger by now, I have no idea on how to fasten the cable on my other (working) 600ex ... duct tape might work, but not for long. Any ideas anyone?


----------



## Terry Rogers (Feb 2, 2014)

I just don't understand why Canon is not including RT capability built into their newest cameras. The 6D has wifi... why not add the necessary capability for RT triggering? I know I know.... then they couldn't sell the additional ST-E3 RT to take more money from you.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 2, 2014)

Terry Rogers said:


> I just don't understand why Canon is not including RT capability built into their newest cameras.
> 
> I know I know.... then they couldn't sell the additional ST-E3 RT to take more money from you.



Asked and answered. 

I suppose they will, eventually. They did that with their optical triggering, too, first in the 7D and now even in Rebel/xxxD bodies. But I bet they'll wait a few years, until the market is pretty well saturated (I think a 4x0EX-RT is next, then perhaps an -RT receiver to allow older flashes to be radio triggered, but those releases will be a couple of years apart, and only after that will it be built-in).


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 5, 2014)

Zv said:


> I think you can also mix ettl with manual (I could be mistaken).



You are correct - and I'd like to stress the benefits of this feature, I just experienced it today ... if some flash refuses proper ettl metering or you want to shoot it at fixed (or full) power anyway, simply set it to m flash on the master ... impossible with the old pre-rt system.


----------



## m (Feb 14, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> You are correct - and I'd like to stress the benefits of this feature, I just experienced it today ... if some flash refuses proper ettl metering or you want to shoot it at fixed (or full) power anyway, simply set it to m flash on the master ... impossible with the old pre-rt system.



Did you really need the ability to change the setting from the master unit if you want to shoot at "fixed power"?

I recently took some pictures with a manual slave fired by a ttl flash. After some initial testing, the power level of the manual flash was set and I never touched it again.


----------



## alexanderferdinand (Feb 14, 2014)

Benefit of the 600RT with a little help from china:
Soon I will buy me the Fuji X100s; so with its leaf shutter AND the possibility to fire the 600units with the Yongnuo E3 RT I am pleased with this system.
600RTs: I like them a lot. And the help from China makes them univwrsal tools.


----------



## Marsu42 (Feb 14, 2014)

m said:


> Did you really need the ability to change the setting from the master unit if you want to shoot at "fixed power"?



Yes, absolutely - with what I do (wildlife photography & animal portraiture), I often experience situations where I set ettl and realize it won't do, or have set manual and see that I'd like to shoot a couple of different settings and want to switch to ettl. Walking up to the remote flash is an option, but it costs time and disturbs the scene.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Feb 14, 2014)

m said:


> Did you really need the ability to change the setting from the master unit if you want to shoot at "fixed power"?
> 
> I recently took some pictures with a manual slave fired by a ttl flash. After some initial testing, the power level of the manual flash was set and I never touched it again.



"Fixed" as in not changing uncontrollably from shot to shot due to the vagaries of E-TTL in a multi flash setup, but not necessarily unchanged for the duration of the shoot. I recently shot a series of "corporate headshots" for a group of ~30 people. I used a four-light set up, and the hair light was a Speedlite with a Honl grid, up high on a boom. Having the ability to remotely control the power saved me from having to climb up on a ladder or lower the boom and then accurately reposition the light, as the subjects alternated between dark hair (higher power), light hair (lower power), and bald (turn the darn thing off, it's called 'chrome dome' for a reason!).


----------



## m (Feb 14, 2014)

That makes sense.


----------



## winglet (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm looking forward to trying the knock-off trigger for the 600RT's, the Yongnuo YN-E3-RT. Adds the ability to use mixed-mode with cameras other than the 5D3 and 1DX - so hopefully I can get more use with my 5D2 - but more importantly has a autofocus assist beam. I've read a couple reviews saying the AF beams are aimed a bit high but seems like a livable problems to get that capability back. 

Just waiting for it to arrive from Hong Kong. $145 bucks beats the Canon Tax, but who knows about the build quality. Should be fun to experiment with.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/YONGNUO-YN-E3-RT-Flash-Speedlite-Transmitter-for-Canon-600EX-RT-as-ST-E3-RT-/201006116366?pt=Camera_Flash_Accessories&hash=item2ecce5ee0e


----------



## alexanderferdinand (Mar 25, 2014)

My personal benefit is using the 600s with the YN E3 RT with my Fuji X100s.
Leaf shutter with manual flash- sync at 1/1000 of a second- love it.
And I dont need to walk to the flashes, I dial in the new power on the YN E3 RT.

Ah, life is good, sometimes.....


----------



## RLPhoto (Mar 28, 2014)

Reliability.


----------



## Arctic Photo (Mar 28, 2014)

I'm a novice in flash. I got the 600 to go with my 5DMkIII. I picked up the Canon radio trigger only a few days ago, partly thanks to Neuro. I am likely to get a secons 600EX sooner or later. To me it was no question about it having read about other people's experiences. The Canon system seems thought through and although you might save a couple of hundred dollars on third party solutions. I'm not sure it's worth it.


----------



## Dylan777 (Apr 18, 2014)

unfocused said:


> Standard warning here: Speedlites are gateway drugs. If you don't watch yourself, you'll wake up one morning with five 600 RTs next to you in bed and you won't remember how you got there.



  ....Although I haven't own any speedlites yet, however, I do understand your concept in my L lens situation ;D


----------

