# Which second speedlight should I buy?



## noble55 (Jan 10, 2013)

Hi,

I'm trying to work out which speedlight to buy. I currently own a 430EX II and use this with a Pocket Wizard Flex TT5 and Mini TT1 to use off camera but I now need to buy a second speedlight and maybe in a few months I'll buy a third.

My question is do I buy:
- the new 600EX-RT to future proof my setup. Obviously with the 430EX II I know that the radio functionality won't work but hopefully the next speedlight I'd buy would be another 600EX-RT so it would make the setup more flexible. I'd also sell the Flex/Mini as the 600 would be my new Master.
- another 430EX II...if I do this do I have to buy another Flex TT5 to make them both talk to each other? If I do then it seems pointless to take this option but let me know.
- a used 530EX-II and again sell the Flex/Mini.

Any comments/advice would be much appreciated!

Thanks
Zoë


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## RC (Jan 10, 2013)

How about sell your PWs and 430, then buy 2 600s.


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## noble55 (Jan 10, 2013)

Yes this could work RC as well! Can I ask what exactly is the Speedlite ST-E3-RT? Ive seen this but I'm not sure exactly what it is used for if two 600's can talk to each other via radio?


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## RC (Jan 10, 2013)

noble55 said:


> Yes this could work RC as well! Can I ask what exactly is the Speedlite ST-E3-RT? Ive seen this but I'm not sure exactly what it is used for if two 600's can talk to each other via radio?



The ST-E3-RT is the new radio transmitter to fire an off-camera 600 via radio. Its a cheaper way to add a master if you don't need an on camera flash. Its real advantage IMO is its tiny size and weight compared to a 600 mounted in your hot shoe. It has the exact same screen and menus as the 600. The only negative is there is no AF assist beam. 

I have the ST-ES-RT and absolutely love it. That might be a better route, sell your old gear and get a 600 and the ST-E3-RT.


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## noble55 (Jan 10, 2013)

Ah I see! So the only issue is I need more than one flash as I need to light interiors.

So if I had 2 x 600's and wanted them off camera I'd need the ST-E3-RT is that right?


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## RC (Jan 10, 2013)

noble55 said:


> Ah I see! So the only issue is I need more than one flash as I need to light interiors.
> 
> So if I had 2 x 600's and wanted them off camera I'd need the ST-E3-RT is that right?


Yes, or a 3rd 600 to act as master only by turning off its flash function.


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## RC (Jan 10, 2013)

Oh and another option which would be cheaper is to connect a ETTL cord from your hot shoe to a 600 and make that 600 your master to trigger the 2nd 600. 

http://ocfgear.com/cords-for-canon-ettl/ettl-cord-extra-long/


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## noble55 (Jan 10, 2013)

Ah ok this sounds great. A little cheaper and then hopefully I could add the ST-E3-RT at a later date.


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## Frage (Jan 10, 2013)

Yongnuo is the answer.


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## tortilla (Jan 10, 2013)

Frage said:


> Yongnuo is the answer.



+1

I recently got a new YN560-II for 60 € (shipping included) - can there be any photography related equipment that provides more value for the money?


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## noble55 (Jan 10, 2013)

So this is a cheaper version of the 600? Is it compatible with Canon speedlights and will work with my 430EXii?


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## awinphoto (Jan 10, 2013)

screw speedlights... sell them and get a nice strobe kit... Much MUCH more fuller and complete light... consistent output, battery packs available to take them on location... much more control... See the light... no pun intended =)


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## westr70 (Jan 10, 2013)

tortilla said:


> Frage said:
> 
> 
> > Yongnuo is the answer.
> ...



+1


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## Marsu42 (Jan 10, 2013)

noble55 said:


> So this is a cheaper version of the 600? Is it compatible with Canon speedlights and will work with my 430EXii?



Currently, no one has reverse engineered the new Canon rt protocol so 3rd party flashes are optical remote only or completely different radio trigger systems with the added bulk.



noble55 said:


> - the new 600EX-RT to future proof my setup. Obviously with the 430EX II I know that the radio functionality won't work but hopefully the next speedlight I'd buy would be another 600EX-RT so it would make the setup more flexible. I'd also sell the Flex/Mini as the 600 would be my new Master.
> - another 430EX II...if I do this do I have to buy another Flex TT5 to make them both talk to each other? If I do then it seems pointless to take this option but let me know.



Sometimes the optical link is annoying, but in 90% it works just fine for what I shoot so that I'm happy with my 600rt+430ex2 combination.

I wouldn't recommend buying a 2nd 430ex2 (with 3rd party triggers) if you need any of the "big" flash features: faster recycling time, more power (with diffuser, bounces), external power option, 200mm reflector (600rt), build-in reflector card, head can tilt a little forward, much better on-flash menu, strobe function, fec bracketing


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## noble55 (Jan 10, 2013)

Thanks Marsu42. I do need quicker recycling times so a 600 would really help with this. So if I purchased a 600 can I use the PW TT1 on my camera (5DII) and the 430 has the PW TT5 and the 600 stands alone and the two f;ashes will work together well? Or would I need an ETTL wire from my camera to the 600?


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## Marsu42 (Jan 10, 2013)

noble55 said:


> Thanks Marsu42. I do need quicker recycling times so a 600 would really help with this.



Can't comment on the pw option, but recycling time on the 600rt with an external power pack (I've got a €100 non-aa battery pack) is really impressive - but of course that doesn't help if your external 430ex2 cannot keep up if you also need that.


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## Meh (Jan 10, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> screw speedlights... sell them and get a nice strobe kit... Much MUCH more fuller and complete light... consistent output, battery packs available to take them on location... much more control... See the light... no pun intended =)



What kit do you recommend that's reasonably priced for a basic setup, reasonably portable, reasonably easy/quick to set up on location, good quality/value, etc.?


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## awinphoto (Jan 10, 2013)

Meh said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > screw speedlights... sell them and get a nice strobe kit... Much MUCH more fuller and complete light... consistent output, battery packs available to take them on location... much more control... See the light... no pun intended =)
> ...



Hey meh... Alien Bee's... White Lightnings... both can work with the vagabound battery pack... and each 1600 w/s monoblock is cleaper than the 600 series/580's, and have higher GN's and a fuller light than the 600 and 580 at it's fully zoomed maximum output... They take me seconds to set up compared to mickey mousing speedlights with speedlights softboxes... Yes, they're bigger, but they are much better impo 

edit... personally I splurged and got the white lightnings, but alien bee's share the same flash tube as the WL's and have housing made out of material that's nearly bullet proof. Drop one of these... you may have to replace a $20 flashtube... drop a 580 at the right angle, you may have to replace the entire unit.


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## Lawliet (Jan 10, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> screw speedlights... sell them and get a nice strobe kit...



Thats way to definitive for my taste - even with a quite decent strobe kit at hand my speedlights/-lites get quite a lot to do. Different tools, use what fits the situation best...


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 10, 2013)

Frage said:


> Yongnuo is the answer.



I am in the same boat. I have a 430 II and a 420, and currently use the optical trigger in the 7D.
One way (the cheaper option) will be to buy another 430EX II and the Yongnuo radio triggers (YN-622C x 3). That will set you off about $ 400-ish, be all RF. Pros: cheaper; cons: does not support high-speed sync AFAIK.
The other option is to sell everything, and go with 600RT and either get another 600RT and the replacement for 430EX when it comes out. You'd also need the new ST-E3. If you get the 600RT and keep using the optical trigger it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Pros: future-proof, best Canon has to offer in terms of features; cons: very expensive 
A middle ground is to buy a 580EX II (or two, replacing the existing 430EX II), and the three YN-622s. I might go that route and get one 580 first, and then replace my 430 later.


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## Lawliet (Jan 10, 2013)

sagittariansrock said:


> and keep using the optical trigger it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.



With the YNs that have a slave cell (or anything that has something akin to the SU-4 mode, Metz 52-AF comes to mind) one can just use the RT system in manual/auto mode. Less randomness then ETTL, and the non RT flashes simply contribute at their preset power level, ideal for lights that don't require to much nurturing.


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## Meh (Jan 10, 2013)

awinphoto said:


> Meh said:
> 
> 
> > awinphoto said:
> ...



Why did you go for the White Lightnings over the Einsteins?


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## unfocused (Jan 10, 2013)

RC said:


> How about sell your PWs and 430, then buy 2 600s.



Sometimes the first and simplest answer is the best. 

I have railed on Canon in other threads for their decision to abandon 580EXII owners and I still think it was a shortsighted and ill-advised decision, but despite that frustration, I can't advise anyone with just one strobe to buy either another 430EX or a 580EXII. 

Since you don't have a big investment in speedliites, you are better off just biting the bullet and switching to the new 600 RT. To do it right, you will probably have to quickly invest in a ST-E3-RT so you can easily and cordlessly fire both strobes off camera.

As one who owns multiple 580EX II's this isn't an economical solution for me. Instead I've opted for the Youngnuo 622-C transceivers. But, you are probably better off cutting your small losses and switching to the 600 RT.



sagittariansrock said:


> ...Pros: future-proof, best Canon has to offer in terms of features;...



Just one comment: one might have assumed that buying Canon's top-of-the-line speedlite (580EX II) would also have been "future proof" since it was hard to imagine Canon just throwing those buyers into the ditch. We were obviously wrong.

Canon made a conscious decision with the ST-E3-RT to release only half of a product (a transmitter without a receiver). They could have easily accommodated their customers by releasing a full product (transmitter and receiver) but didn't. The moral of the story: no matter what you buy, it is only "future proof" if Canon wants it to be "future proof."


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## Meh (Jan 10, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Just one comment: one might have assumed that buying Canon's top-of-the-line speedlite (580EX II) would also have been "future proof" since it was hard to imagine Canon just throwing those buyers into the ditch. We were obviously wrong.



I get where you're coming from but that might be overstated... not releasing a radio receiver is not quite throwing owners of previous Speedlites in the ditch. Your current flashes still work the way they always have and the 600EX is backward compatible with optical so you can replace a 580 if needed with no loss of functionality.

Perhaps they didn't release a receiver because they too couldn't get one to work reliably with a 580EX II due to the RF interference?


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## awinphoto (Jan 10, 2013)

Meh said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Meh said:
> ...



Hey... Back in my college days, we were able to borrow/rent equipment from the school... They had the novatrons, prophotos, WL, and a few other smaller units... I grew a fondness for how the WL's worked... Einsteins had the same output as the 1600x series WL's, and the WL's were cheaper, i was more familiar with the flashes from using them a decade ago at school, and plus when I bought them, i built them into a price I charged a commercial client for a photo shoot and so essentially they bought the lights for me. =) I'm sure the Einsteins would be even better, but so far i'm loving my strobes... Super fast recharges, allows me to be more creative and not worry if the strobes are seeing each other because they are without fail... no regrets.


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## Lawliet (Jan 10, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> That is just so wrong.



Thats quite POV dependent, isn't it? Going by the feature list you're right; but as a photographer: getting more use/value from SBs then from their Canon counterparts when using Canon cameras leaves a funny taste...


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## madmailman (Jan 10, 2013)

I already had one EX580 ii and I was looking at getting a second one. I am really glad that I found the Yongnuo kit. Instead of getting another 580, or even a 600 I got 3 YN622 flash triggers and a YN568 flash, AND saved myself $300. The YN622s so far have been very reliable and the YN568 is absolutely great especially for the price. I'm thinking of adding another 622 and 568 to my kit now. I never thought flash photography could be so much fun until I took my flash off my camera. I can really recommend the YN kits.


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## Lawliet (Jan 10, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Canon are not innocents in this though, I well remember when they changed lens mount from FD to EF, then we were hung out to dry,



Well, I have no problem using FD lenses on current bodies - they mesh fine with current versions.
But using a single legacy speedlite kills the complete RT functionality, which would have been avoided by following the FD-EF example more closely.


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## unfocused (Jan 10, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> Lawliet said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



I suppose we have to agree to disagree. My point is simply this. Canon chose to release half of a product. They released a transmitter and no receiver. There is absolutely no technical reason why they needed to do that. Indeed, Yongnuo, Pocket Wizard, etc. etc., all produce transmitters and receivers or transceivers that combine both functions. 

Canon, on the other hand, chose not to release a receiver, only a transmitter. 

This is not, in any way, comparable to complaining because Canon products are too expensive or that they failed to custom build a camera to one's specific desires. This was a calculated judgment call on their part not to offer a complete product to make their previous top-of-the-line product compatible with a new model. 

Yes, I understand that the new strobe can be used with IR control. I understand that the same features of the 580EXII exist that existed before they released the 600. 

Actually, referencing the change from the FD lens mount is a good comparison to make my point. Canon has acknowledged that they only changed the lens mount because they simply could not continue to use the same mount and keep current with technology. They did it reluctantly. 

In this case, there is no technological reason they can not produce a receiver that would work with older model strobes. They just simply decided to sell only half of a product. And yes, that does indeed leave a bad taste in the mouth.


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## Lawliet (Jan 10, 2013)

Somehow I must have missed the requirement to disable AF on all EF lenses, otherwise my point would be perfectly valid... ???

Thats the crux: one single C legacy flash and there goes the whole RT functionality. Neither as TTL nor as a simple trigger like the PWII(I) or Strato. I.e. should someone consider using RT w/o going all in he's better off buying 3rd party flashes as they remain viable.


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 11, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > This was a calculated judgment call on their part not to offer a complete product to make their previous top-of-the-line product compatible with a new model.
> ...



I think it is quite normal for people with lots of pre-RT flashes to feel frustrated that those cannot work with Canon's RT system and they will have to keep using the third party RF triggers or optical triggers. It is a small frustration though, since they don't have to give up anything- only they can't take full advantage of the new tech. While this is similar on surface to the EF/FD debacle (cannot use the new AF technology/ newer bodies) it is a much smaller problem in magnitude. And less costly to boot.
On the other hand, Canon might have had a genuine problem in making the older speedlites RT-compatible (or not) and who knows, they just might release something in the future!

I am curious though, how does using a 600-RT setup improve on using, say, YN-622s with a 580EX II? I need to make that decision, so my curiosity is not merely academic.


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## Richard8971 (Jan 11, 2013)

Easy. Grab a Speedlite 550EX. I love mine and it has done exactly everything I have asked it to do. I use it with my 7D and it keeps up with the 8fps with an external battey pack.

Oh did I mention they are a 1/4 the cost compared to the 580EX II or 600EX? 

D


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