# 5d Mark iii sync speed



## Emeyerphoto (Jan 24, 2012)

Have there been any rumors regarding sync speed? I am a 40d shooter and I love my 1/250 sync speed. I would love to move up to a 5d in its latest form, but I would hope that they would upgrade the sync speed. I know this is a small (on the whole scheme of things) request, but one that would make me jump with both feet to the new 5d.

Thank you,


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

Haven't heard any rumors, but the 1D X only manages 1/250 s, same as the 1DsIII. I think the 5DIII will stay at 1/200 s.


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## wickidwombat (Jan 24, 2012)

i just hope it can actually use 1/200 sync without banding at the bottom of the frame


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## briansquibb (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Haven't heard any rumors, but the 1D X only manages 1/250 s, same as the 1DsIII. I think the 5DIII will stay at 1/200 s.



Strange the 1d4 is 1/300 - usefull for the 70-200 on a 1.3


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Strange the 1d4 is 1/300 - usefull for the 70-200 on a 1.3



Smaller sensor, which means a smaller shutter, and thus a shorter distance for the curtains to traverse. Thus, a faster sync speed.


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## smirkypants (Jan 24, 2012)

Honestly, you have 21 megapixels. I've always found that you can shoot at a higher speed but just frame the photo in the viewfinder in such a way that you plan on having to crop. Heck, if there's enough ambient light you often don't get any banding at like 1/400.


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## briansquibb (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> briansquibb said:
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> > Strange the 1d4 is 1/300 - usefull for the 70-200 on a 1.3
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... and the 7D doesn't get 1/300 either ....


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 24, 2012)

Because the 7D isn't a pro body. Canon differentiating the lines again, as it would be easier to do 1/300 s on APS-C than APS-H.


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## briansquibb (Jan 24, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Because the 7D isn't a pro body. Canon differentiating the lines again, as it would be easier to do 1/300 s on APS-C than APS-H.



I was using the PW last night with two off camera speedlights. The PW just took care of it all - was changing speed above and below without setting hss on the off camera 580EXs. It is a great system as it takes the burden off my old and feeble mind when trying to take pictures of over excited, hyperactive fast little dogs when lying on my stomach trying to keep the camera at their eye height.

May not be cheap but it is a great way to sync at all speeds


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## gmrza (Jan 24, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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While the 7D officially does 1/250s, if you use a manual (i.e. non E-TTL) trigger, you should be able to achieve 1/320s. - Useful if you are trying to overpower the sun.


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## briansquibb (Jan 25, 2012)

gmrza said:


> While the 7D officially does 1/250s, if you use a manual (i.e. non E-TTL) trigger, you should be able to achieve 1/320s. - Useful if you are trying to overpower the sun.



1/320 may be OK in the winter but in the full summer sun you will want up to 1/4000. So either hss or the PW route would be needed for flash


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## smirkypants (Jan 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> 1/320 may be OK in the winter but in the full summer sun you will want up to 1/4000. So either hss or the PW route would be needed for flash


Squibby, all you need is a 6 stop ND filter and you can be in the Sahara at 2.8. In the shade I generally shoot with a 3 stop ND filter at 1/250, ISO 100 at f1.8 to f2.0. Even with the Pocket Wizards I generally use the 3 stop ND because I can recycle faster.


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## briansquibb (Jan 25, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> briansquibb said:
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> > 1/320 may be OK in the winter but in the full summer sun you will want up to 1/4000. So either hss or the PW route would be needed for flash
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Is this the ND that gives infill as well 

... and to also keep the background light as well?

... and fits a large white?


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## smirkypants (Jan 25, 2012)

David Hobby (The Strobist guy) talks about using ND filters here:
http://strobist.blogspot.com/2010/06/using-nd-filters-to-kill-depth-of-field.html


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## briansquibb (Jan 25, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> David Hobby (The Strobist guy) talks about using ND filters here:
> http://strobist.blogspot.com/2010/06/using-nd-filters-to-kill-depth-of-field.html



Still dont know how to fit them to my 400 f/2.8 .... apart from which I want to be taking BIF pictures at 1/2000 or faster at f/5.6 ( for big birds).

Seems crazy to add layers of IQ destroying glass just because you cant sync the flash : : :

So I have gone the pw way and flash extender. In my thinking this is the best way without messing with the lighting - for example a stag in the dappled shade of a wood. Unless you are up tight and personal with the subject then the either the surrounding landscape lighting is destroyed or you get motion blur from having the shutter speed at the comparatively slow max sync


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## smirkypants (Jan 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Still dont know how to fit them to my 400 f/2.8 .... apart from which I want to be taking BIF pictures at 1/2000 or faster at f/5.6 ( for big birds).
> 
> Seems crazy to add layers of IQ destroying glass just because you cant sync the flash : : :
> 
> So I have gone the pw way and flash extender. In my thinking this is the best way without messing with the lighting - for example a stag in the dappled shade of a wood. Unless you are up tight and personal with the subject then the either the surrounding landscape lighting is destroyed or you get motion blur from having the shutter speed at the comparatively slow max sync


You are absolutely correct, in your case it's not a good option, but it might be for others seeking to overcome the limitations of the sync speed ceiling.


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## cpsico (Jan 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> > Haven't heard any rumors, but the 1D X only manages 1/250 s, same as the 1DsIII. I think the 5DIII will stay at 1/200 s.
> ...


I remember reading the higher flash sync is better achieved on the crop sensors


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Still dont know how to fit them to my 400 f/2.8 ....



Perhaps the drop-in filter holder in your lens? There's actually a clear filter in there now (or at least, there should be - Canon states that the optical design of the lens incorporates a filter in the holder, and they recommend either a clear filter or clear gelatin, and recommend against leaving the holder empty).


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## briansquibb (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> briansquibb said:
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> > Still dont know how to fit them to my 400 f/2.8 ....
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In those sunny days I would be using the drop in pl.


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## pwp (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> briansquibb said:
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> > Strange the 1d4 is 1/300 - usefull for the 70-200 on a 1.3
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One of the very nice things about the original 1D was the 500th shutter sync speed. I was a bit miffed when I got my 1D Mk2n with 300th sync. Yes, I'd be surprised if the 5D3 was anything faster than 200th sync.

Paul Wright


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## martins982 (Jan 25, 2012)

I wonder if they will put a built in ND filter like they have done in the G1x camera It is probably alot cheaper for them to do that than to put a very expensive high performance shutter in to to increase sync speed


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## Flake (Jan 25, 2012)

Amazing that no one has mentioned High Speed Sync! (HSS) where the camera will sync at more or less any speed you like! I've had the 5D MkII sync at 1/4000th. OK there are are downsides, like the lack of power, and the fact it makes the flash gun work hard, but it is a feature included just for this specific purpose, and you can always use multiple guns to up the power if you need.

Alternatively there's static light which needs either mains or a generator, but will overcome daylight. And as a slightly different approach, this is a problem associated with focal plane shutters, so get an adaptor and a lens with a leaf shutter, set the DSLR in bulb mode and then fire the leaf shutter which will sync at much faster speeds.

Or you use a tripod expose the sky, move the subject in, and expose for them & either do an HDR or cut & shut.

Sometimes a camera will just not be capable of doing what you want, and you have to be prepared to do a work around.


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## Emeyerphoto (Jan 25, 2012)

cpsico said:


> briansquibb said:
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I don't believe this argument. If it was better achieved on the crop sensors, then why did the EOS 1, EOS 1n, and 1V all have 1/250 sync speed? If I am mistaken, I apologize but these are film cameras so the full frame versus crop sensor frame reasoning seems odd to me. If the argument of crop sensors only achieving this sync speed, then they would all have sync speeds of 1/200 or possibly less. Could you explain further why 1/250 worked on a film camera but only full frame digital cameras only allow 1/200?


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## smirkypants (Jan 25, 2012)

Emeyerphoto said:


> zCould you explain further why 1/250 worked on a film camera but only full frame digital cameras only allow 1/200?


The sync speed is the fastest speed at which the entire sensor is exposed at once. At faster than max sync speed, only parts of the sensor are exposed at a time so if the flash fires (when it's not HSS) it gets only part of the image, and thus banding. There are two curtains that travel over the sensor that must traverse a larger distance on a full frame camera. Smaller travel distances = higher possible sync speeds.

It's as simple as that.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2012)

Emeyerphoto said:


> I don't believe this argument. If it was better achieved on the crop sensors, then why did the EOS 1, EOS 1n, and 1V all have 1/250 sync speed? If I am mistaken, I apologize but these are film cameras so the full frame versus crop sensor frame reasoning seems odd to me. If the argument of crop sensors only achieving this sync speed, then they would all have sync speeds of 1/200 or possibly less. Could you explain further why 1/250 worked on a film camera but only full frame digital cameras only allow 1/200?



Not necessarily better achieved, but easier to achieve.

Two things determine the max sync speed - the size of the sensor and the design of the shutter. The smaller the sensor, the shorter the distance the curtains must move, and thus the faster they can cover that distance. That means higher sync speeds are easier to achieve with smaller sensors. But the design of the shutter matters, too - if the curtains can move faster (lighter curtains, stronger motors), a higher sync speed is possible. That's why the 1-series models (film and digital) have higher sync speeds - they have better (and of course, more expensive) shutter mechanisms. You can see the effect of the distance the curtains need to travel when you compare the 1DIV vs. the 1DsIII - both have the highest-end shutter motors and lightest curtains (titanium, I believe), but the FF 1DsIII has 1/250 s like the film cameras you mentioned, whereas the APS-H 1D IV has a 1/300 s sync speed.

The crop bodies don't have a higher sync speed because they are consumer/prosumer models and Canon doesn't choose to put their best shutter mechanisms in those cameras. But by extrapolation from the 1DsIII to 1D IV, if that same pro-level shutter mechanism was put in an APS-C body, you'd expect a sync speed of 1/350 s or a little faster.


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## Flake (Jan 25, 2012)

Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2012)

Flake said:


> Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.



Does the G1X have a focal plane shutter? My guess based on the above is no - a 1/4000 sync speed means electronic 'curtains'.


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## Viggo (Jan 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> Flake said:
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> > Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.
> ...



I used to have a Sony compact that also synced at 1/1000s and froze action like nothing else. I understand how the shutter of an SLR works, but I have never thought of what the negative sides to an electronic "curtain" is? Can someone fill me in? Why doesn't the slr's use electronic "curtains"? You could still have the mirror and everything, right?


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## 7enderbender (Jan 25, 2012)

Viggo said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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I'm sure others will provide more detail on this but I believe it has to do with the sensor type. The G12 has a CCD sensor while the Canon SLRs have CMOS sensors. From all I know there are pros and cons to both types but what you describe is one difference where it's easier to accomplish different behaviors in one way or another.

Leaf shutters like on medium format cameras would be another option to increase sync speed.

In any case, neither have anything to do with freezing action since you can do that even at slow shutter speeds. Things like high speed sync (or high shutter sync speeds) are more important to control ambient light.


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## Viggo (Jan 25, 2012)

7enderbender said:


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Thanks, yeah, I was out with my son shooting wirless flash, and even in a normal minus daylight, I had the 580 on full power, and it wasn't exactly all I needed...


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## Flake (Jan 25, 2012)

Viggo said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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Lag is the reason for a focal plane shutter. Compact cameras continually read image data from the sensor when the shutter is pressed the sensor has to first be cleared, then allowed to expose for a set period before it's read & then wiped again, it all takes time, not a huge amount and compact cameras are much more responsive than they used to be, but still nothing like as fast as a DSLR.

Neuro I think you miss read my post, I can get the G12 to sync at 1/4000th I've no idea what the G1X will sync at just wondering as it has a much bigger sensor, and the NEX which is the nearest equivalent does use the focal plane shutter (and very noisy it is too!)


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 25, 2012)

@ Flake - I did, indeed, misread your post. Sorry! After I replied, I got to wondering if you meant with HSS?

The specs for the G1X say:

Fastest speed 
- 1/2000 sec (built-in flash)
- 1/250 sec (external flash)
- 1/4000 sec (external using high-speed synchro)


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## Flake (Jan 25, 2012)

Based on that it looks like a focal plane shutter, but the 1/2000th with the built in flash may indicate that it is capable of HSS but with limited power.


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## Viggo (Jan 25, 2012)

Flake said:


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## Emeyerphoto (Feb 7, 2012)

With the D800 release will we now see 1/250 sync speed? This camera is full frame and hopefully this debunks the idea that you can't do 1/250 in a mid-upper level FF DSLR.


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## Ryusui (Feb 9, 2012)

Who ever said you *can't* do it? As neuro said, Canon made the conscious decision not to include that speed on the 5D to differentiate it from the pro bodies.


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## briansquibb (Feb 9, 2012)

Emeyerphoto said:


> With the D800 release will we now see 1/250 sync speed? This camera is full frame and hopefully this debunks the idea that you can't do 1/250 in a mid-upper level FF DSLR.



1D4 sync is 1/300 - so why not


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## Positron (Feb 9, 2012)

7enderbender said:


> Viggo said:
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From what I understand, despite the myriad benefits of CMOS, one of their drawbacks compared to CCD is a more substantial internal capacitance that lets data "leak" into the pipeline after the sensor is turned off. This "leak" effect is not necessarily the same for all frequencies (colors of light), so there can be a color cast if using an electronic shutter with a CMOS sensor, which is why it's not done on DSLRs. A very frequent symptom of embedded systems implemented with CMOS ICs is a gradual, rather than instantaneous, turning off when the power switch is flipped (even if the switch is fully mechanical!), and if my interpretation is correct that lag in turning off is the reason that electronic shutters are a bad idea on CMOS sensors, which are in many other respects a better choice than CCDs for cameras.


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