# Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 4, 2014)

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<p>We’ve had our second report of the Canon EOS 7D being entered into inventory systems as reaching “end of life” in June. The second report comes from a distributor and not a retailer of Canon products.</p>
<p>There have been no mentions of spec lists in a whole for the upcoming and highly anticipated replacement to the EOS 7D, although there are lots of reports that the camera will be in the hands of professional photographers this month for the World Cup in Brazil.</p>
<p>More to come…</p>
<p><em>thanks Jan</em></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## sanj (Jun 4, 2014)

Its time.


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## TrabimanUK (Jun 4, 2014)

sanj said:


> Its time.



+1


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## vlim (Jun 4, 2014)

Not a surprise... Suddenly here in France its price has seen a 250€ drop off in FNAC store, just under 800€ !


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## frumrk (Jun 4, 2014)

Interesting... don't they normally have an upgraded version in place well before the EOL for a particular product is announced? Just an observation.. could this mean that there will be no direct replacement for the 7D?


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## Antono Refa (Jun 4, 2014)

frumrk said:


> Interesting... don't they normally have an upgraded version in place well before the EOL for a particular product is announced? Just an observation.. could this mean that there will be no direct replacement for the 7D?



Except the 7D EOL wasn't announced yet - it's just a rumor.


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## lholmes549 (Jun 4, 2014)

Is it not a little weird that nothing has been heard about the 7D2 if it's in the hands of pros for the world cup which starts in just over a week?
I understand that non disclosure agreements come in to play etc. but are we more likely to hear something once the world cup kicks off?
I'm not interested in buying the 7D2 but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in what Canon have come up with!


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## Phil L (Jun 4, 2014)

The day B&H announces a new 7D is available for pre order I plan to be on board. 
I still use my current 7D for wildlife action every day and if they make a great camera better count me in.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 4, 2014)

frumrk said:


> Interesting... don't they normally have an upgraded version in place well before the EOL for a particular product is announced? Just an observation.. could this mean that there will be no direct replacement for the 7D?


 
There are multiple EOL points.
End of Production. - They normally stop production on the old model and convert the production line over to the replacement model. A quantity of spare parts is stockpiled to be able to service cameras for 7-10 years. That may have been done months ago, and inventory is low enough that it can no longer be ordered from some Canon warehouses, but that will depend on which part of the world. They will all have different inventory levels.
End of Stock - When stock has dwindled to the point that a body can not be found at the various distributors and retailers, the Camera is removed from the current part of the web site to the archives. This might happen 1-2 years after production ceases.

End od Support - Spare parts have been reduced to the point where Canon can no longer repair cameras. Usually many years after production stops.


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## tomscott (Jun 4, 2014)

Didn't we all think this about 18 months ago? lol


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## TrabimanUK (Jun 4, 2014)

vlim said:


> Not a surprise... Suddenly here in France its price has seen a 250€ drop off in FNAC store, just under 800€ !



Wow! Still £950 in the UK (through official channels, though some import sites are listing it for a shade under £570).

Still looks like the 7D2 will be ariving too late for me to use on holiay though :-(


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 4, 2014)

TrabimanUK said:


> vlim said:
> 
> 
> > Not a surprise... Suddenly here in France its price has seen a 250€ drop off in FNAC store, just under 800€ !
> ...


 
If you pre-order, and its announced in August, you should have one by December.


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## unfocused (Jun 4, 2014)

lholmes549 said:


> Is it not a little weird that nothing has been heard about the 7D2 if it's in the hands of pros for the world cup which starts in just over a week?
> I understand that non disclosure agreements come in to play etc. but are we more likely to hear something once the world cup kicks off?



There were rumors that a body was being tested at the Winter Olympics, but nothing surfaced. If nothing leaked in all the months *after* the Olympics, why would there be a leak *before* the World Cup? Or...maybe rumors are just rumors.


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## ashmadux (Jun 4, 2014)

A 7d without the crappy sensor & Af issues...pure win. I miss that camera body.

70d is nice but took months of testing and CPS to get the AF it to a usable state. 70 is awesome but that plasticy body is not.


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## distant.star (Jun 4, 2014)

.
When this one goes out, there should be some kind of monument erected in the annals of photo equipment. Truly historic camera. 

Also the 5D2.


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## ahsanford (Jun 4, 2014)

This just in:

_Reports of Everyone's Patience Reaching End of Life [CR9].
_
- A


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## TrabimanUK (Jun 4, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> TrabimanUK said:
> 
> 
> > vlim said:
> ...



Unfortunately I need it for Seotember. Hey ho


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## Maui5150 (Jun 4, 2014)

In other news... Buckwheat has been shot. 

Repeat... Buckwheat has been shot


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## Maui5150 (Jun 4, 2014)

Buckwheat is dead.

https://screen.yahoo.com/buckwheat-buys-farm-000000954.html

Any news on Elvis, Janis Joplin, JFK, Lincoln, or Jesus?

Rumoring EOL for the 7D is akin to any of these... It has been in the ground for a while


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## PerfectSavage (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm so sad to hear I only have mere days left with my 7Ds as their "end of life" approaches. I guess the 2 bodies can make a nice pair of bookends and complement the door stop that I made from my 5D Mark II.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 5, 2014)

frumrk said:


> Interesting... don't they normally have an upgraded version in place well before the EOL for a particular product is announced? Just an observation.. could this mean that there will be no direct replacement for the 7D?



Yeah surprising. Maybe a surprise announcement mid-June during World Cup (for more general exposure than a camera show gives these days?) for a July 1st in stores (7D2) (in time for many summer vacations and sports and all fall sports?)???


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## dslrdummy (Jun 5, 2014)

I seem to recall people were predicting it would appear at the Winter Olympics in various pre-production forms, but nothing came of it. I will believe this one when someone says they have seen it. Meanwhile, I'm saving for it and the Sigma 300-600 sport.


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## Don Haines (Jun 5, 2014)

Not surprising..... Sales of the 7D have plummeted since the 70D came out and my guess is that they have jot made new ones for a while and internal stock is low. With the delays in the 7D2, there might even be a gap between when they run out of 7Ds and the mark 2 version is released...... That would certainly get the comments flowing from forum members....


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 5, 2014)

The 7D is so old that it's been end of life in the market place for a long time. It's been said before, it's not the camera which is dated, but the sensor inside it. It's seriously behind in iso ability and clarity at 100%. Sure the AF could do with a tweek, but I found the 7D's array to be very good.


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## justaCanonuser (Jun 5, 2014)

IF this rumor is true, the 7DII unfortunately is too late for my next trip to Norway (starting in 10 days ;-) ). Got my battered 7D Mk I and 5D3 already packed.

Btw my 4 yrs old 7D really doesn't show any signs of coming to its life's end. It survived a really hard crash on a rock and still is going rrrrr... My wife's Nikon 300D, same age, same hard use in rugged environment, died past year. First it started to throw off pieces, then its mirror got stuck @ only 90.000 shutter actuations. Cost of repair would exceed the camera's value by far. I wasn't surprised to read at DPR that Nikon had to save about 18 Mio US-$ for D600 warranty repair/replacements. Looks really like Nikon has a serious quality issue. Sad to say as an old Nikon F-series fan - still love to use my FM-2, one of the best SLRs Nikon ever made.


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## dufflover (Jun 5, 2014)

tomscott said:


> Didn't we all think this about 18 months ago? lol



LOL exactly what I was thinking.


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## justaCanonuser (Jun 5, 2014)

dslrdummy said:


> Meanwhile, I'm saving for it and the Sigma 300-600 sport.



Sigma 300-600? Did I miss something? I only know the 300-800 Sigmonster (+ Sigma's even more monstrous 200-500/2.8).


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## justaCanonuser (Jun 5, 2014)

dufflover said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't we all think this about 18 months ago? lol
> ...



Every 18 days! See this one: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19973.0


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## ahsanford (Jun 5, 2014)

justaCanonuser said:


> dufflover said:
> 
> 
> > tomscott said:
> ...



We shouldn't be surprised Canon is taking so long with the 7D2 -- after all, the original is nearly indestructible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCT-YMgjm9k

- A


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## NancyP (Jun 5, 2014)

Let's wait for the World Cup sightings.


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## Steve (Jun 5, 2014)

justaCanonuser said:


> Sigma 300-600? Did I miss something? I only know the 300-800 Sigmonster (+ Sigma's even more monstrous 200-500/2.8).



http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=21072.0

"It’s also possible that Sigma will announce something like a 300mm-600mm supertelephoto zoom lens. Although that may not come until 2015. There was no mention of whether or not the lens would have a constant aperture, or even what the aperture would be."


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## Tugela (Jun 5, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> The 7D is so old that it's been end of life in the market place for a long time. It's been said before, it's not the camera which is dated, but the sensor inside it. It's seriously behind in iso ability and clarity at 100%. Sure the AF could do with a tweek, but I found the 7D's array to be very good.



Ummm...it is not just the sensor, it as *all* the electronic circuitry in the camera that is dated.


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## pdirestajr (Jun 5, 2014)

My 7D still works.


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## Richard8971 (Jun 7, 2014)

I bought my 7D new back in late 2011 and I love this camera. After the v2.0 firmware, it is fast, has a great buffer size and supports very fast speeds of CompactFlash cards. 

Every camera has limitations, no matter what body it is. Some more or less than others, but they still exist. But here is why I love my 7D and even IF they release a 7D replacement soon, I will keep my current set-up for quite a while.

1) The image quality of the 7D is impressive, even at high ISO in decent light. If you are one who shoots constantly in low light a crop sensor is not for you anyway, so this doesn't apply to you anyway. I have hundreds of good light, high ISO (ISO-1600-3200) shots that are detailed and perfect for print, even without any kind of noise reduction done. Guys, they look great in NORMAL print sizes (even up to 11 x 14) Look if you are a "pro" and you make billboards for advertising, keep your comments to yourself. You wouldn't own a 7D or any crop body anyway, good grief. This IS NOT directed to you anyway. 

2) Even though the 70D and Nikon's latest crop body, the D7100 are impressive cameras, they cannot keep up with the OVERALL speed of the 7D, either in fps OR in clearing out the buffer quickly. That alone can make or break the nest shot.

3) The AF system on the 7D is fantastic. Even when I am using my Tamron 1.4x teleconverter, the 7D still locks on 98% even in dim light. The 7D WILL AF at f8, quite a feat in it's self, even if it's not an official spec from Canon.

4) The body and menu is still 100% modern and is build like a tank. I plan on using my 7D for years to come.

5) The last and most important. IF Canon makes a 7D replacement, I DOUBT the camera will produce an Image that is (guessing of course) $1800.00~$2200.00 BETTER than my 7D. 

Until such time that the cost to fix my 7D outweighs buying another camera body, I won't switch IF a "7D2" comes out.

Just my 2 cents, take it as that.

D


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 7, 2014)

Tugela said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > The 7D is so old that it's been end of life in the market place for a long time. It's been said before, it's not the camera which is dated, but the sensor inside it. It's seriously behind in iso ability and clarity at 100%. Sure the AF could do with a tweek, but I found the 7D's array to be very good.
> ...



The 7D actually has a better processor than the 5II of the same generation. The 7D to get it's data through put of 8fps and 18mp used a dual Digic 4 design. While the 5DIII and 1DX use Digic 5 and Dual Digic 5 designs, the through put of the Dual Digic 4 and a single Digic 5 are remarkably similar. 
Other than AF systems, a 19 point to 61 point AF system, the 7D is remarkably modern except for it's sensor. If fact much of the 5DIII's development was carried over or progressed from the ground work laid in the 7D development. The 7D really was a 1D4 lite....so one wonders if Canon has the will to put out a 7DII / 1D-X lite?


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## ahsanford (Jun 7, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > GMCPhotographics said:
> ...



A lot of people pick on its age, but if a 7D2 was offered that was _identical spec-wise to the 7D other than offering a new best-in-class APS-C sensor_, I think it would still sell like hot cakes. 

But tack on what we think they will tack on beyond the sensor (a 5D3/1DX-like AF grid, dual-pixel, video improvements, etc.) and we can start talking about such a beast eclipsing $2k and _still_ selling like crazy.

- A


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## AshtonNekolah (Jun 7, 2014)

I remember reading there will be no 7D mk2 or a camera by that name. the newer body will be digi 6 which is far ahead of the game and also, the 70d was suppose to be the new 7D new version, so if there is a replacement maybe its out already and if there is a camera coming out I dont think it will have anything to do with a 7 at all. just my 2cents, only time will tell what it really going to be.


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## Harry Muff (Jun 8, 2014)

Nikon just threw their "flagship crop DSLR" on the heap.




Sound familiar?


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 9, 2014)

AshtonNekolah said:


> I remember reading there will be no 7D mk2 or a camera by that name. the newer body will be digi 6 which is far ahead of the game and also, the 70d was suppose to be the new 7D new version, so if there is a replacement maybe its out already and if there is a camera coming out I dont think it will have anything to do with a 7 at all. just my 2cents, only time will tell what it really going to be.



The 70D shares a lot of 7D specs, which really underlines my earlier point about the 7D being a very advanced camera when it was launched. I get the impression with the 70D, it was Canon cutting into the second hand sales of the 7D. The 7D is hardly selling anymore on the new market but is selling very well on the used market. Canon only recieve income with the same of new cameras, not used ones. So the way to fix this is release a nearly identical camera with a nearly identical spec, but built to a cheaper cost base and sell it for the same price as a used 7D....and this is exactly what the 70D seems to have done. The same it true of the 6D and 5DII. 
Sure there are few minor upgrades and a few dumbed down specs, but generally this seems to have happened.

The Problem Canon seems to have with the 1DX and 7DII, is that the 1DX is still selling well and the second Canon release a 7DII, those sales will tail off pretty fast. It's just not possible to make a 7DII without it being a 1.6x version of the 1DX. The 5DIII is already a full frame 1DX lite....so a 7DII must therefore be a cropped sensor 1DX lite also. Ergo, simular frame rate, AF array and 18mp as the 1DX.


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## wickidwombat (Jun 9, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> AshtonNekolah said:
> 
> 
> > I remember reading there will be no 7D mk2 or a camera by that name. the newer body will be digi 6 which is far ahead of the game and also, the 70d was suppose to be the new 7D new version, so if there is a replacement maybe its out already and if there is a camera coming out I dont think it will have anything to do with a 7 at all. just my 2cents, only time will tell what it really going to be.
> ...



cant really argue with any of that logic but often canon don't act logically they WILL cripple the 7D2 enough that it doesnt it 1Dx sales in a big way


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## wickidwombat (Jun 9, 2014)

I'm still prepping my bomb shelter for the hysteria as the 7D2 release gets closer
anyone remember how bad this place got pre 5Dmk3?


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## Random Orbits (Jun 9, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> I'm still prepping my bomb shelter for the hysteria as the 7D2 release gets closer
> anyone remember how bad this place got pre 5Dmk3?



That was a fun time -- lots of activity. Don't think the 7D2 will generate as much traffic as 5D3. The tech is more mature now (relative to existing market offerings), and Sony's A7x, micro 4/3s, Fuji have all taken some of the market share and tech buzz.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 9, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still prepping my bomb shelter for the hysteria as the 7D2 release gets closer
> ...



There will be a number of very specific camps posting here once the specs are announced. Each camp can be quite easily predicted.
The Nikon trolls....where anything from Canon isn never good enough. 
The Canon fanboys, where everyrhing from Canon is given from the very "hand of god".
The existing 1DX users, who don't see the point of the 7DII compared to their exisiting camera.
The 5DIII users who don't care for the 1.6 crop. The 5DIII users who fancy the 1.6 crop.
The upgraders from the 70D and the side graders from the 7D.
The "we want 15 stops DR or the camera is a failure" brigade.
The people who don't have enough money to justify a 7DII.
The people who don't have any camera but like to post their opinions on forums as if they did.

you are welcome to add or delete to my list 

In the mean time....I'll be out shooting during my busiest time of the year.


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## wickidwombat (Jun 9, 2014)

Nice summary! 
I'm hoping for 5d3 body and battery and AF system new sensor better than 70d 20mp or so is fine with me
9 or 10 fps and a nice deep buffer
I'm expecting it to come in mid to high 2k range


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## Don Haines (Jun 9, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > wickidwombat said:
> ...


I'll add another category.... how about those people who say that its a camera that meets my needs, buy one, and then take great pictures despite all the naysayers.


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## Random Orbits (Jun 9, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > wickidwombat said:
> ...



LOL, I'm just hoping for a lot fewer/elimination of the unboxing videos...


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## ahsanford (Jun 9, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> The Problem Canon seems to have with the 1DX and 7DII, is that the 1DX is still selling well and the second Canon release a 7DII, those sales will tail off pretty fast. It's just not possible to make a 7DII without it being a 1.6x version of the 1DX. The 5DIII is already a full frame 1DX lite....so a 7DII must therefore be a cropped sensor 1DX lite also. Ergo, simular frame rate, AF array and 18mp as the 1DX.



Agree with the 'lite' statement, but a camera is far more than those three specs:


Consider what that 'lite'ness costs you: 
No integral vertical grip
Slower burst (presumed)
Can't get as small a DOF at the same aperture
No spot metering at any AF point
No built-for-war build quality (the current 7D is great, but I though the 1D build ways always a step up from that)



This forum is loaded full of people that reject the notion that an APS-C rig with an Xmm lens takes shots as good as a FF rig with a 1.6Xmm lens. (I don't want to start a back and forth on that here, but it's an important point in comparing 7D2's true threat to the 1DX's sales.)

So I feel that current or prospective 1DX users would feel a bit handcuffed on a 7D2 platform. As such, I see a 7D2 user not having a tremendous overlap with 1DX users, and I only see 7D2 stealing a small amount of 1DX business.

I think the 7D2's #1 value proposition is for folks where length is everything. The 1.6x either limits how expensive a supertele you need to buy (a 400mm instead of a 600mm) or it lets that 600mm do more as a 960mm FF equivalent.

So, I dont know why I have this locked in my head, but the 7D2 screams wildlife (esp. birding) to me. It sure it will do most everything else well, but the value proposition to wildlife folks for length reasons is spectacular. I don't have all the white lens prices in front of me, but getting 90-95% as good a shot as FF for half the price and weight of body + lens is a compelling sales argument.

(Another reason why the 1DX overlap is smaller than you think: 1DX users aren't looking for 90-95% as good as something -- they want the best money can buy in that format. That separates the users pretty clearly for me.)

The #2 value proposition might be 'the best camera you can buy without moving into crazy dollars' -- and that screams enthusiast (who would rarely buy a 1DX) to me.

If anything, the 7D2 might steal business from the 1DX as a _second_ body choice to complement their 1DX. Sports guys, maybe?

- A


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## ahsanford (Jun 9, 2014)

I'm also curious to see what the price will be. When I first offered that the 7D2 will cost more than the 6D, many disagreed. I still think -- depending on the features and how good the sensor is -- this camera could comfortably climb above $2K (body only) at first offering.

For certain shooters, the 7D2 is their holy grail and it represents a spectacular savings in lens costs for them. That small sliver of shooters would pay above $3k for it, I'd guess.

But, not knowing the specs and recognizing that Canon isn't building this rig _just_ for wildlife/sports folks, I'm guessing this is a $1,999 - $2,499 rig at first offering.

- A


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## dadgummit (Jun 9, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> (Another reason why the 1DX overlap is smaller than you think: 1DX users aren't looking for 90-95% as good as something -- they want the best money can buy in that format. That separates the users pretty clearly for me.)



Very true. The 5d3 is 95% of the 1Dx and it is half the cost. Once you get that good it is really expensive to get just a little better.


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## AmbientLight (Jun 14, 2014)

There is an additional factor: I don't think a 7D Mark II will make a good backup camera for someone using a 1D-X as a primary camera. As a backup for a 1D-X shooter I see two obvious choices: Either a second 1D-X or a 5D Mark III. The latter has been my choice and I am quite happy with that combination, but using my old 7D as a backup isn't something I see as adequate. There is just too much of a difference and quite frankly I don't think whatever a new 7D Mark II can deliver will make it adequate.

This may sound rather pessimistic, but I suspect a 7D Mark II will find its place in the kit of people not wanting to spend a lot of money on a camera body, but who still want to have many pro-camera features, because this is the selling point of the 7D and by replacing it Canon should be aiming at the same kind of target customers. I am just confused as to why replacing that camera takes Canon so long. To maximize on profits I expected a shorter product cycle. Ask yourselves: How many 7D users already upgraded to something else? Maybe there will be no replacement at all.


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## dufflover (Jun 16, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> The "we want 15 stops DR or the camera is a failure" brigade.



Whilst not the highest on my list, it would weaken my personal perceived value of the camera (or at least a perception of where Canon continues to head) if they could not at least match the DR of Sony sensors from *yester-year* (by the time it comes out).


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## Marsu42 (Jun 16, 2014)

wickidwombat said:


> I'm still prepping my bomb shelter for the hysteria as the 7D2 release gets closer
> anyone remember how bad this place got pre 5Dmk3?



That was mostly due to the Nikon high-dr high-mp d800 release ... unlike the 70d the 7d2 will be a stand-alone upgrade competing with nothing, question just if it will find enough buyers considering performance vs. price. Canon seems doubtful, that's why there is no 7d2 atm.



dadgummit said:


> The 5d3 is 95% of the 1Dx and it is half the cost.



But this 5% include 100% of the rgb metering, sealing, x-sync, customizability, shutter life, faster af/lens speed, higher fps


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 20, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still prepping my bomb shelter for the hysteria as the 7D2 release gets closer
> ...



No one ever mentions that the 1D-x's AI servo / face detection and colour AF tracking is noticably better than the 5DIII. Tracking wild sea birds in Ireland last week, the 5DIII's 6fps is well geared to it's AF tracking capability. While the 1D-X's 12 fps is well suited to it's improved AF capability. 
I think durability wise, I've seen enough broken 1D-X's over the last few years to know that they aren't any more robust than a 5DIII. Yes the 1Dx is slightly better weather sealed, yes there is twice the frame rate. But there is more comonality between them then would first appear. The 5DIII really is the 3D we were all asking for. I think shutter life is a mute topic, and fro a £300 fix it's a minor issue. I know guys who had their 1DX shutter crap out at only 100K....it happens. A lot of it is to do with the envirnonment it was shot with (sand is a killer on any camera) and how well treated it's been. Many pro cams get thrown around because they are pro grade and look like they can take the punishment. Most of the internal ribbon cables inside are connected using the same ones on our laptops and we generally treat them with more respect. 
Pros buy the 1D-X because they are on a 5 year turn around for their cameras. A lot of wild life guys traded up from 1DsIII's and the 1D-X makes a lot of sence. Most wedding photographers are on a 3 year replacement cycle due to the harsh condidtions. My 5DII's were in a pretty sorry state when i upgraded to 5DIII's (which still look fresh after 2 years). This is one aspect that serious hobbiests don't often consider, the longeviety and resale value of a pro item. I expect 10 years out of a lens minimum, but camera bodies are 2-3 years for me. That said, i'm very happy with my 5DIII's and would consider selling one of them and trading for a 1D-X. 
If I did, I would need to see a 5 year return on the camera. Which is a problem becuase the camera is already a few years into it's product life and i'm sure a replacement will come down the line at some point.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 20, 2014)

AmbientLight said:


> This may sound rather pessimistic, but I suspect a 7D Mark II will find its place in the kit of people not wanting to spend a lot of money on a camera body, but who still want to have many pro-camera features, because this is the selling point of the 7D and by replacing it Canon should be aiming at the same kind of target customers.



For me, a 7D is a complement to a 5D - one for reach and speed, one for low-light and image quality. I'll take one of each if they are similar enough in user interface and technology.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jun 20, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> AmbientLight said:
> 
> 
> > This may sound rather pessimistic, but I suspect a 7D Mark II will find its place in the kit of people not wanting to spend a lot of money on a camera body, but who still want to have many pro-camera features, because this is the selling point of the 7D and by replacing it Canon should be aiming at the same kind of target customers.
> ...



But...a 5DIII and a 7DII will probably cost the same as a 1D-x....


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 20, 2014)

dadgummit said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > (Another reason why the 1DX overlap is smaller than you think: 1DX users aren't looking for 90-95% as good as something -- they want the best money can buy in that format. That separates the users pretty clearly for me.)
> ...



I'd put it more at 75%. I've shot extensively with both, indoor and outdoor sports, and with regards to AF accuracy and metering accuracy, 1Dx is winning by a fairly substantial margin. In terms of AF accuracy I'd still put the 1D4 ahead of the 5D3, but not in ISO performance. That and all the other things Marsu42 listed...


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## Lee Jay (Jun 20, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > AmbientLight said:
> ...



And be many times more useful than a 1Dx.


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 20, 2014)

Lee Jay said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Jay said:
> ...



I found it less useful. I had a 7D and a 5D3 I was using, but the 1Dx replaced both. Instead of changing cameras on the sidelines or out in the field, I just kept shooting because the 1Dx did what each of those does and then even more. I realize you need a supertele, but I have several, so that's not an issue. You can't shoot with both cameras at the exact same time, so again, in my opinion, it was less useful.

The 1Dx has the speed, the AF, and the high ISO performance, all in one. Why split it all apart into two different cameras when you can do it in one? That's why a long lens on one, and a short lens on a 2nd one will always be the absolute best scenario. Affordability is another situation.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 20, 2014)

bdunbar79 said:


> The 1Dx has the speed, the AF, and the high ISO performance, all in one. Why split it all apart into two different cameras when you can do it in one? That's why a long lens on one, and a short lens on a 2nd one will always be the absolute best scenario.



That's why. I keep a 24-105 on the full-frame and a 70-200 on the crop camera.

The question was about replacing both with ONE 1Dx, not two of them.


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## Tugela (Jun 20, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> GMCPhotographics said:
> 
> 
> > The Problem Canon seems to have with the 1DX and 7DII, is that the 1DX is still selling well and the second Canon release a 7DII, those sales will tail off pretty fast. It's just not possible to make a 7DII without it being a 1.6x version of the 1DX. The 5DIII is already a full frame 1DX lite....so a 7DII must therefore be a cropped sensor 1DX lite also. Ergo, simular frame rate, AF array and 18mp as the 1DX.
> ...



A 1DX is a professional camera while the 5D and 7D are prosumer cameras. Prosumers would like to use professional cameras, but they cost too much. They whine and we see nonsense about vertical grips and 2000 focus points. Professional users use professional cameras because they cost too much, and it distinguishes them from prosumers. Both types of cameras will take equally good pictures on the fundamental principle that the quality of a picture (when intentional) is 99.9% due to the user, not the tool.

It is all about pretension folks. The "must have" features are not really "must have", they are just things to make you feel superior to "amateurs".

Given that reality, professional photographers are not going to stop buying the 1DX just because the 7D2 is released. It is just not going to happen. And in any case, new versions of the 1DX and 5D are going to appear in 2015. Canon are not going to cripple the 7D2 just to avoid competing with cameras that are due to be replaced with upgraded versions in the near future anyway. That would be stupid. The 7D2 has to be good for another three years, not another three months.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 20, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Both types of cameras will take equally good pictures on the fundamental principle that the quality of a picture (when intentional) is 99.9% due to the user, not the tool.
> 
> It is all about pretension folks. The "must have" features are not really "must have", they are just things to make you feel superior to "amateurs".



Whatever you need to believe to help you feel better about yourself, it's all good. But your 'fundamental principle' of 99.9% of image quality being due to the user is fundamentally flawed. 

What I can tell you as someone for whom bird photography is a hobby...when I switched from a 7D and 100-400L to a 1D X and 600/4L IS II, my images improved significantly 'overnight'. What changed – me as a user, or my tools? Gear matters. 

What I can tell you as a father who takes pictures of my daughters' gymnastics events...in gymnasium lighting, getting an action-stopping shutter speed with a 70-200/2.8L IS II or 135/2L requires a minimum of ISO 3200, often 6400 or 12800. When I shot with a 7D, the images were unacceptably noisy at high enough ISO, or motion blurred if I used a lower ISO. When I added a 5DII to my kit, ISO 3200-6400 gave a usable image from a noise standpoint, but the AF system couldn't effectively track the girls. With the 1D X, AF tracking is flawless and ISO 25600 gives usable results, meaning I can get 1/800 s when needed. Gear matters. 

Is it possible to take stellar, impactful images with a beat up old Digital Rebel/300D and a nifty-50/1.8? Sure. Just not of the subjects that _*I*_ choose to shoot.


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## Dylan777 (Jun 20, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Both types of cameras will take equally good pictures on the fundamental principle that the quality of a picture (when intentional) is 99.9% due to the user, not the tool.
> ...



+1000000000000000000000000000000000... with Neuro

I'm happy with 40D, 60D, 5D II and 5D III IQ, however, I'm much happier with 1DX  until 1DX II of course ;D


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## ahsanford (Jun 21, 2014)

Agree with Neuro for the most part. If you are a competent photog who pushes the limits of your gear, _reducing the limits_ of the gear will lead to better shots, less missed shots, more salvageable shots in poor light, etc. 

But if you don't understand the basics, upgrading from a Rebel to a 5D3 won't do you much good. "I don't understand the autofocus points so I get a lot of blurry shots, but wow, _look at that color..._" 

- A


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## Don Haines (Jun 21, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> Agree with Neuro for the most part. If you are a competent photog who pushes the limits of your gear, _reducing the limits_ of the gear will lead to better shots, less missed shots, more salvageable shots in poor light, etc.
> 
> But if you don't understand the basics, upgrading from a Rebel to a 5D3 won't do you much good. "I don't understand the autofocus points so I get a lot of blurry shots, but wow, _look at that color..._"
> 
> - A


I can honestly say that I really didn't understand the limits of AF until I started to get into BIF pictures.... gear does matter!


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 21, 2014)

It only matters if DxOmark says it's a better camera (sensor) than the corresponding Canon camera...At base ISO...on a tripod...downsampled to 8MP...

Whoops, sorry guys!


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## Tugela (Jun 23, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Both types of cameras will take equally good pictures on the fundamental principle that the quality of a picture (when intentional) is 99.9% due to the user, not the tool.
> ...



99% of your images could be taken equally well with that old camera. Coming up with the 1% (or whatever) where it can't, and presenting that as definitive evidence to the contrary, is poor logic and argument.

The principal determinant in the quality of an image is user input, not gear.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 23, 2014)

Tugela said:


> 99% of your images could be taken equally well with that old camera. Coming up with the 1% (or whatever) where it can't, and presenting that as definitive evidence to the contrary, is poor logic and argument.
> 
> The principal determinant in the quality of an image is user input, not gear.



In fact, they couldn't. Suggesting that you have knowledge about my image library and the conditions under which the images in it were taken is an untenable and meaningless argument. 

It's true that user input is the main determinant in the image output. But you seem to be suggesting that user input is effectively the _only_ determinant, and that's simply not the case. Gear matters, and for certain genres of photography, it matters a lot. Examples of those genres include birds (particularly in flight) and low light action shooting...both of which represent a major portion of what I shoot. For example, I routinely need high ISO – close to 40% of my images are at higher than ISO 3200; I just had a quick look at the set of images I'm currently processing, and the entire set of several hundred images ranges from a low of ISO 2000 to high of ISO 25600, with the majority being in the ISO 4000 - ISO 12800 range. Are you suggesting those hundreds of images could have been taken equally well with the 7D?

If you want to claim that gear does not matter for 99% of what _*you*_ shoot, that's fine. For all I know, 100% of your images would just look just as good if taken with a 2.1 MP Hello Kitty camera:







...but that's certainly not the case for me.


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 4, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > Both types of cameras will take equally good pictures on the fundamental principle that the quality of a picture (when intentional) is 99.9% due to the user, not the tool.
> ...



+1 

You need a good eye, of course, but without good gear you lose a lot of potential. When I switched from film to my first DSLR, that changed my approach to photography completely. Suddenly ISO 800 was useful then, and today ISO 1600 is nothing (with FF at least, not with a 7D Mark I). Comparable superfast films were crazily grainy, even an admirer of film grain needed a lot of artist's tolerance in those old days.


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## NancyP (Aug 4, 2014)

Bird photography is specialized, and better gear does add up to better shots. I don't have $20.000.00 right now to drop on a bird photography kit, so I use a $2,400.00 (price when new) kit of 60D and 400mm f/5.6L. No doubt the keeper RATE would improve with the kit costing 8 x as much, but I can still get some nice images with what I have. The pros need the reliability of a 1 series camera. I don't. If I miss a shot, I am disappointed, but I still get to eat.


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## FEBS (Aug 5, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> When I added a 5DII to my kit, ISO 3200-6400 gave a usable image from a noise standpoint, but the AF system couldn't effectively track the girls.



I've found the AF system superior on the 5D3 compared to the 7D, from the first minute onwards. Also at least 2 stops better ISO for the 5D3 compared to the 7D. The difference in fps 6 against 8 in favor of the 7D, was at the end one of the reasons I did buy a 1Dx. 

The 5D3 will stay a long time in running, till of course a much better 5D4 ;D
The 7D will be for sale within a few weeks


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## Act444 (Aug 5, 2014)

Switching from a 60D to a 6D made a HUGE difference in my shots taken at book signings, even with the same 70-200 2.8 lens. When one is not reach-limited, FF is a million times better than any crop camera. Of course, using the 6D meant needing to get a little closer to get the same shots I got with the 60D, but at least I could do so. As a bonus, 70mm is no longer super-awkward...it's actually useful!

With the ice shows, it's a different story though. I AM reach-limited in that case and the range of the 1.6x (later swapped the 60D for a 7D) is ideal. But the 7D really struggles when the lighting is poor (as is the case at many of these events). I could use the FF but that means giving up reach and more work in cropping afterwards. I really would like a 7D successor for this...the existing equipment works just fine but it would be nice to get cleaner shots without having to sacrifice anything.


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## justaCanonuser (Aug 7, 2014)

NancyP said:


> Bird photography is specialized, and better gear does add up to better shots. I don't have $20.000.00 right now to drop on a bird photography kit, so I use a $2,400.00 (price when new) kit of 60D and 400mm f/5.6L.



This is no bad combo, in particular if there is enough light. The little 400mm is a superb lens, I use it quite frequently when I do not want to carry a 500mm with me.


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