# Patent: 400mm f/2.8 DO and 300 f/2.8 DO



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 29, 2018)

> The diffractive optics related patents continue to appear from Canon. This time we get a patent that covers both a 300mm f/2.8 DO and a 400mm f/2.8 DO.
> We think a slew of diffractive optics super telephotos are on the way for the RF mount and these two optical formulas may find their way to the RF mount in 2020. Perhaps alongside an EOS R version of the EOS-1D X Mark II.
> As Canon News points out, the back focus on a super telephoto lens is quite large, so these could easily be RF mount lenses.
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## xps (Nov 29, 2018)

Both lenses will be welcome in my photoequipment locker. I hope the optical quality will be on par with the existing 2.8 400/300mm lenses. Ad maybe 2 pounds lighter.


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## BeenThere (Nov 29, 2018)

Looks like future big white telephoto will be for R system. Faster frame rate R bodies will arrive about the same time.


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## ethanz (Nov 29, 2018)

What would they price a 400 2.8 DO at? $12,000+


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## Buck (Nov 29, 2018)

makes perfect sense, it will be in use at the 2020 Olympics in Canon's backyard


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## juststeve (Nov 29, 2018)

These lenses do not appear to be any shorter than the current 300/2.8 or 400/2.8. The 400/4 DO is more than a hundred mm shorter than the 363 length of the patent. So where is the benefit of DO in these patents?


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## AlanF (Nov 30, 2018)

It would be unfortunate if they were restricted to the R range. If Canon continue with DSLRs, then it would seem sensible to make large telephotos compatible with both D and R bodies.


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## Architect1776 (Nov 30, 2018)

AlanF said:


> It would be unfortunate if they were restricted to the R range. If Canon continue with DSLRs, then it would seem sensible to make large telephotos compatible with both D and R bodies.



By and large the EF mount has all the big whites. Also it would be likely camera development will be in the R mount. Yes they will sell EF mount cameras for a bit more but I see the RF mount is where the new sensors and developments will be revealed.


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## dcm (Nov 30, 2018)

Or, they could offer the new lenses in both mounts given the design.


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## timmy_650 (Nov 30, 2018)

They might be similar to existing big whites, so making them in EF might be kinda pointless.


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## [email protected] (Nov 30, 2018)

Very odd. The 400mm lens in the patent is 2 centimeters *longer* than the current and excellent 400mm f/2.8.

Why this would be put out is a bit of a mystery.


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## fentiger (Nov 30, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Very odd. The 400mm lens in the patent is 2 centimeters *longer* than the current and excellent 400mm f/2.8.
> 
> Why this would be put out is a bit of a mystery.


because the back focus of the 400 2.8 in EF form is longer, guess they can not get that any shorter for the R. so has to be added on to the lens


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## fentiger (Nov 30, 2018)

xps said:


> Both lenses will be welcome in my photoequipment locker. I hope the optical quality will be on par with the existing 2.8 400/300mm lenses. Ad maybe 2 pounds lighter.


version 3 of the 400 2.8 is 2 pound lighter than version 2. knock anther 2 pound off you have nothing left


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## jolyonralph (Nov 30, 2018)

Remember patents don't equal products!

I don't think a 400mm f/2.8DO is a realistic release considering the new version 3 400 2.8 has just been launched. A 300 2.8? Maybe. 

If Canon come out with a new pro mirrorless camera for sports/wildlife you can almost guarantee there won't be any more big white EF lenses. Canon want to push people to switch, and releasing new lenses on the old format isn't going to help that.


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## Maximilian (Nov 30, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Very odd. The 400mm lens in the patent is 2 centimeters *longer* than the current and excellent 400mm f/2.8.
> 
> Why this would be put out is a bit of a mystery.


Same mistake as often:

The "_Length of the lens: 363.53 mm_" in the patent is the length of the optical formula up to the image plane on the sensor.
So you'll have to subtract the flange distance of the camera system (44 mm @ EF, 20 mm @ RF, if I remember correctly).

This would lead to a mechanical length of the lens (barrel) of about 320 mm if its EF mount.
And then it is just about 2 cm SHORTER than the existing EF 400mm f/2.8L IS III USM (343 mm).
If it was RF mount then the mechanical size would be about the same as the existing EF lens.

A little bit disappointing IMO as I thought DO would help to reduce length more than that.


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## Bob Howland (Nov 30, 2018)

"...the back focus on a super telephoto lens is quite large, so these could easily be RF mount lenses"

After looking at the back of my lenses, particularly the position of the rear elements relative to the mount, I'm convinced that the same is true of most/all lenses over 85mm.


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## tron (Nov 30, 2018)

The tragic would be to make 500 and 600 DO lenses and make them available only in R. The 300 2.8 cannot be significantly smaller and/or lighter. I mean they may make it but its weight and size are well within the tolerance levels of most if not all photographers. The 400 saw a huge weight decrease (making it only 700grams heavier than the 400DOII f/4) so this would mostly benefit from a length decrease.

Now where are our EF 500 and EF 600 DO lenses?


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## padam (Nov 30, 2018)

tron said:


> Now where are our EF 500 and EF 600 DO lenses?


They've just made the new 400 and 600, they might update the rest as well, but are not going to make yet more versions any time soon, these might even be the last versions as the product cycle can be very long.

After the optical formula has been decided they can move over to figure out how to reduce the weight even more I think this DO stuff is probably more expensive if we compare lenses at the exact same focal length and aperture, so that means even higher pricetag over the version III EF lenses. But it will take a fair few years as Nikon Z-mount super telephotos aren't even mentioned in their 3-year roadmap (but it is a possiblity that they come out earlier than Canon because they will skip updating their F-mount super teles altogether), the newest EF lenses will probably do more than fine for the time being.


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## sanj (Dec 1, 2018)

AlanF said:


> It would be unfortunate if they were restricted to the R range. If Canon continue with DSLRs, then it would seem sensible to make large telephotos compatible with both D and R bodies.



Cant you see D = Dead?


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## RGF (Dec 1, 2018)

lens look very interesting but I wonder when/if Canon will be R series body that be able to track a subject (bird in flight, football player and shot at 12 FPS. I understand that this is not easy do on a mirrorless camera.


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## Talys (Dec 1, 2018)

RGF said:


> lens look very interesting but I wonder when/if Canon will be R series body that be able to track a subject (bird in flight, football player and shot at 12 FPS. I understand that this is not easy do on a mirrorless camera.


Automatically tracking a bird in flight isn't a super important thing. Realistically, what happens is that if the bird is small enough in the field of view where tracking is useful, the photograph won't show enough pixels of the bird to matter. The shot you really want has the bird taking up as much of the frame as is possible, and in those cases, you have to manually track (point lens at) the bird, or it will be out of the frame in a fraction of a second.

In my opinion, the more important thing for really serious BIF folks will be, if you take a RF super telephoto and stick a 2x teleconverter on it, will the future, super-pro RF body focus on a single AF point as quickly as a DSLR, and when you manually track the bird, will the AF system keep the subject in focus, especially if it is flying towards you -- for example, launching off a perch.


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## AlanF (Dec 1, 2018)

RGF said:


> lens look very interesting but I wonder when/if Canon will be R series body that be able to track a subject (bird in flight, football player and shot at 12 FPS. I understand that this is not easy do on a mirrorless camera.


All of those can be done now on mirrorless cameras. The Sony A9, for example, is in the 1DX league. Sony’s bridge RX10IV and latest RX100 can do do at 24 FPS. Olympus is no slouch either. Canon has a problem in that its DPAF has so many more AF points that it is short of processor power to analyse them quickly.


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## AlanF (Dec 1, 2018)

Talys, I used to use just centre AF for BIF. But, after finding that using all points on a mirrorless was superior I switched last month to using all points with the 5DIV and 5DSR with more success for birds flashing across the viewfinder.


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## AlanF (Dec 1, 2018)

sanj said:


> Cant you see D = Dead?


I can see D = Drone.


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## Talys (Dec 1, 2018)

AlanF said:


> Talys, I used to use just centre AF for BIF. But, after finding that using all points on a mirrorless was superior I switched last month to using all points with the 5DIV and 5DSR with more success for birds flashing across the viewfinder.


It's entirely possible that the 5D is just better at finding birds that flash across the frame better than 6D2 (or A7R3), which I just don't have good enough success on to use. I have the EOS R, but currently, I'm working on some physio/rehab before I can go out on birding adventures again, but it will be soon enough.

I will try it with the R at some point! Thanks for letting me know


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## AlanF (Dec 1, 2018)

Talys said:


> It's entirely possible that the 5D is just better at finding birds that flash across the frame better than 6D2 (or A7R3), which I just don't have good enough success on to use. I have the EOS R, but currently, I'm working on some physio/rehab before I can go out on birding adventures again, but it will be soon enough.
> 
> I will try it with the R at some point! Thanks for letting me know


Phil, get well soon and start showing us some bird photos!
The two shots you liked of the yellow-billed kite in https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...re-than-75mp-on-the-horizon-cr2.36339/page-12 were both were taken using all focus points. The points danced across the viewfinder with the bird and tracked perfectly a whole series of shots. The 5D series does have better AF than the 6D. I liked the feel of the R in the local store the other day and a future body with more mpx is on my wish list.


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## snoke (Dec 1, 2018)

Everyone talk about lens, nobody talk about camera. Interesting.

No rumor about 1DX Mark III. I say before, no 1DX Mark III. EOS R show way. Now CR agree.

EF is old. Too slow.


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## AlanF (Dec 1, 2018)

Where are these dead EF bodies?

I am hungry to devour them.


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## AlanF (Dec 1, 2018)

Don't worry, we old lions can still manage while the hyenas look on.


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## RGF (Dec 2, 2018)

AlanF said:


> All of those can be done now on mirrorless cameras. The Sony A9, for example, is in the 1DX league. Sony’s bridge RX10IV and latest RX100 can do do at 24 FPS. Olympus is no slouch either. Canon has a problem in that its DPAF has so many more AF points that it is short of processor power to analyse them quickly.


Let's hope that they can solve this problem.


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## RGF (Dec 2, 2018)

Talys said:


> Automatically tracking a bird in flight isn't a super important thing. Realistically, what happens is that if the bird is small enough in the field of view where tracking is useful, the photograph won't show enough pixels of the bird to matter. The shot you really want has the bird taking up as much of the frame as is possible, and in those cases, you have to manually track (point lens at) the bird, or it will be out of the frame in a fraction of a second.
> 
> In my opinion, the more important thing for really serious BIF folks will be, if you take a RF super telephoto and stick a 2x teleconverter on it, will the future, super-pro RF body focus on a single AF point as quickly as a DSLR, and when you manually track the bird, will the AF system keep the subject in focus, especially if it is flying towards you -- for example, launching off a perch.



Really don't understand your reply. you say tracking BIF is not important then you describe tracking BIF. Please explain how you example is not BIF?


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## Architect1776 (Dec 3, 2018)

AlanF said:


> It would be unfortunate if they were restricted to the R range. If Canon continue with DSLRs, then it would seem sensible to make large telephotos compatible with both D and R bodies.



The EF mount is history. Canon won't tell you that until more RF product is available. I see no sense at all in putting much effort into the EF system. remember they just came out with 400 and 600 EF lenses which will cover the transition period from EF to RF. The TS-E lenses were recently updated so most of the EF line is pretty current and when it starts showing any age the RF will be dominating production.


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## AlanF (Dec 3, 2018)

Architect1776 said:


> The EF mount is history. Canon won't tell you that until more RF product is available. I see no sense at all in putting much effort into the EF system. remember they just came out with 400 and 600 EF lenses which will cover the transition period from EF to RF. The TS-E lenses were recently updated so most of the EF line is pretty current and when it starts showing any age the RF will be dominating production.


The RF mount is, indeed, in all probability the future. The problem is that we live in the present and unless Canon can suddenly speed up fps and AF tracking for the R series for the next releases, we will have to live with EF for a few years yet for action work. Sony has shown fast action can be done now with a limited number of AF points and so maybe Canon will have to compromise its DPAF system to compete.


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## tron (Dec 4, 2018)

padam said:


> They've just made the new 400 and 600, they might update the rest as well, but are not going to make yet more versions any time soon, these might even be the last versions as the product cycle can be very long.
> 
> After the optical formula has been decided they can move over to figure out how to reduce the weight even more I think this DO stuff is probably more expensive if we compare lenses at the exact same focal length and aperture, so that means even higher pricetag over the version III EF lenses. But it will take a fair few years as Nikon Z-mount super telephotos aren't even mentioned in their 3-year roadmap (but it is a possiblity that they come out earlier than Canon because they will skip updating their F-mount super teles altogether), the newest EF lenses will probably do more than fine for the time being.


They may stop at EF versions III (assuming they make version III for all big white teles) for all I care. Already the version II lenses have top IQ even with 5DsR plus teleconverters. The key is to make a lighter EF500mm f/4L IS III too and maybe I will upgrade my version II in a few years (assuming the weight loss is significant). Now DO lenses is a totally different matter. The 400 DO IS II is excellent but I wouldn't mind seeing it complemented with EF 500 and/or 600 DO versions


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