# Neutral Density Filters - HELP !



## PikkieChick (Jul 29, 2014)

Hi there
Looking at buying my first batch of ND filters. Thought that a Hoya 3 stop and 6 stop would be a good start. My question is - can I stack these to achieve 9 stops using either a 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM or EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM.

I understand that the 16-35mm might vignette badly with stacked filters. Does anyone have experience with this ?
Also that many lenses you can't actually go up to 9 stops as wide angle lenses sometimes will give you an x in your image at much lower than 9 stops.

Help and feedback please. Maybe the slim B+W might be an option, but any better with vignetting ? Can u stack a hoya + a slim B+W on top (as I understand the slim B+W doesnt have the thread on top)


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## lintoni (Jul 30, 2014)

You are very likely to get vignetting on ultra wide angle lenses. Have you considered a filter system like Lee's?


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## FEBS (Jul 30, 2014)

On an APS-C body, you will not have that big issue of vignetting. However on a FF it will be there with both lenses, and for sure with the 16-35. On FF, and <24mm and a variable ND filter you can already see the Maltezer cross after 3 to 4 stops of reduction. I didn't test with stacked ND filters as I have a 2, 3, 6 and 10ND. If possible take the ND filter as slim as available but keep yourself to the good brands like B&W.


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## pablo (Jul 31, 2014)

Buy single filters.

You have spent a lot of money else where, buy the single filters in various strengths. If you already have a polariser (which you should) I would skip the ND2 or 3 and go straight for a nd64 and an ND1000.

I would not stack them as you can get funny casts (funny casts already on the ND1000s) and risk your expensive filters binding.

Buy at the biggest thread size you need and step them down rather than buying for each lens.


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## surapon (Jul 31, 2014)

PikkieChick said:


> Hi there
> Looking at buying my first batch of ND filters. Thought that a Hoya 3 stop and 6 stop would be a good start. My question is - can I stack these to achieve 9 stops using either a 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM or EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM.
> 
> I understand that the 16-35mm might vignette badly with stacked filters. Does anyone have experience with this ?
> ...



Dear Friend.
Get 82 mm. filter and Filter adapter 82 mm to 77 mm :
http://www.amazon.com/Tiffen-77VND-VARIABLE-FILTER-Camera/dp/B004Z55VP0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406826925&sr=8-1&keywords=variable+nd+filter

Or 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/609253-REG/Singh_Ray_RT_86_77mm_Vari_ND_Variable_Neutral.html

Enjoy
Surapon


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## daemorhedron (Jul 31, 2014)

I agree, get big filters and use adapters. Also, I use the FOTGA Variable ND filter with absolutely no regrets. Cost me $10 on eBay.


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## Lyle Krannichfeld (Jul 31, 2014)

If you're shooting landscapes, I'd strongly suggest the LEE system. Game changer for landscape images.


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## tetten (Jul 31, 2014)

Don't waste your money on screw on ND filters. You will quickly get annoyed having to screw on and off filters while taking test shots and exploring compositions and will just frustrate yourself. Instead do like a couple people have already recommended, get a Lee filter holder system and get slide in square filters. This will also provide the opportunity to purchase wide-angle adapters for the Lee system, which will help reduce vignetting which you are concerned about. Keep in mind though it will probably be more expensive than thread on filters or cheaper filter systems, however the price difference is justified in its superiority, performance, and options.

Also I would recommend against Vari-ND filters, I have a Singh-Ray vari ND and haven't used it since I first tested it, I prefer to shoot wide angle landscape and nature shots and the vignetting + horrible looking double polarizer cross effect renders it basically useless for what I like to shoot. I am sure some out there find good uses for it, but for for me its been a complete waste of $300 or whatever I spent on it.

If you do decide to shell out for the Lee system you will have to get one of the specially designed 10 stop filters to use with it, since they have a foam seal to prevent light leakage around the filter. Several manufacturers offer filters like this, just look around at reviews and see what is good and available, the Lee Big Stopper has been hard to get a hold of in the past.


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## Otter (Jul 31, 2014)

PikkieChick said:


> Hi there
> Looking at buying my first batch of ND filters. Thought that a Hoya 3 stop and 6 stop would be a good start. My question is - can I stack these to achieve 9 stops using either a 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM or EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM.
> 
> I understand that the 16-35mm might vignette badly with stacked filters. Does anyone have experience with this ?
> ...



Hey Pikkie, definietly go with the Lee filter system with the wide angle adapter. I have it as well as many other people I know and it's great. Do not go and buy $10 filters from somewhere. You get what you pay for and cheap filters change color over the time. You've spend all that money on nice 24-70mm glass, don't put something cheap in front of it. 
When buying ND grads, I suggest a Lee set of 3 hard or soft grade. You save a lot if you buy a set of 3. I believe they run around $230 something when a single is $120. Whether you go hard or soft, is up to you depending on what kind of landscape you shoot. I have 1-3 stop soft and a 3 stop hard. If you are just looking for a solid ND grad filter(not graduated) and a lot of stops go for the 10 stop Big Stopper(1 filter 1 slot). They also have a 6 stop little stopper if 10 stops is too much. You can see the difference between the two here: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYxc_G12ogM

Some people will get a 6 then stack something on top. It all depends on your style of shooting and what you are looking to achieve. There is definitely no one stop does it all filter as I'm sure you know. I've been picking away at my filter collection over the years as they are not cheap, but I use different filters for different situations. I even dropped and broke a big stopper once while shooting. :/ I did like it so much I replaced it though. 
You will get vingetting. With 2 slots on my 16-35mm I get a bit of vingetting at 16mm. 20mm is fine with 2 slots. This comes with the territory and is pretty much unavoidable when you get really wide. This can be fixed in lightroom pretty easily anyhow. To give you an idea, I shoot with a 16-35mm F/4L. I put a Lee holder on the end with 2 slots plus a B+W 105mm Kaesemann Circular Polarizer Extra Wide MRC Filter and I can get to 20mm without vingetting. Below 20, vingetting will show up however.


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## KarstenReis (Jul 31, 2014)

I too would also echo what others have been saying about the Lee filters. I just purchased the 24-70 2.8 II and had a similar decision to make. I ended up going with the Lee 100mm system. While more expensive I think in the long run I will use it more and it will produce better images. So far I have the Big Stopper and a 105 mm polarizer that uses an adapter to screw on to the front of the system. I will be getting a neutral density grad filter soon. Will update when I use the system in a few days.


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## M_S (Jul 31, 2014)

I just bought a Lee filter system and I am really shocked about the build quality of that system. The adapter ring has a faulty finish with markings on it, which then were fixed with a pen as a cover up. After returning that adapter ring I got another one just like it. I conacted the manufacturer which explained to me that these markings are caused in the manufacturing process, quote: "The marks inside the ring are voids left during the anodising process. The rings are suspended in the solution by small wire 'hangers' and these leave voids where they touch the metal."
This I never have seen from any other manufacturer. 
See picture for this.
Above all my 0.9 ND pro glass came with tiny specles of yellow finish on the glass right under the yellow label. This goes well 30mm into the middle of the glass. On a glass worth of 200 Euros. Also not what I would call high end. This is just bad quality so far. I haven't given up on it completely but one more of this stuff not gone through the quality control or badly produced and I will send the whole shabbang back.


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## M_S (Jul 31, 2014)

Here is what I am referring to:


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## M_S (Jul 31, 2014)

and another one


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## brad-man (Jul 31, 2014)

M_S said:


> I just bought a Lee filter system and I am really shocked about the build quality of that system. The adapter ring has a faulty finish with markings on it, which then were fixed with a pen as a cover up. After returning that adapter ring I got another one just like it. I conacted the manufacturer which explained to me that these markings are caused in the manufacturing process, quote: "The marks inside the ring are voids left during the anodising process. The rings are suspended in the solution by small wire 'hangers' and these leave voids where they touch the metal."
> This I never have seen from any other manufacturer.
> See picture for this.
> Above all my 0.9 ND pro glass came with tiny specles of yellow finish on the glass right under the yellow label. This goes well 30mm into the middle of the glass. On a glass worth of 200 Euros. Also not what I would call high end. This is just bad quality so far. I haven't given up on it completely but one more of this stuff not gone through the quality control or badly produced and I will send the whole shabbang back.



As you have supplied wonderful photos of Lees shoddy workmanship in the manufacturing of your filter system, could you please supply a photo that was ruined by this inferior system?

No? I didn't think so.

@ OP: Agree with others who recommend Lee Filter System. Though they are pricey at the start, if you're in this picture thing for the long haul, they are actually the best investment for quality and versatility.


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## Otter (Jul 31, 2014)

M_S said:


> I just bought a Lee filter system and I am really shocked about the build quality of that system. The adapter ring has a faulty finish with markings on it, which then were fixed with a pen as a cover up. After returning that adapter ring I got another one just like it. I conacted the manufacturer which explained to me that these markings are caused in the manufacturing process, quote: "The marks inside the ring are voids left during the anodising process. The rings are suspended in the solution by small wire 'hangers' and these leave voids where they touch the metal."
> This I never have seen from any other manufacturer.
> See picture for this.
> Above all my 0.9 ND pro glass came with tiny specles of yellow finish on the glass right under the yellow label. This goes well 30mm into the middle of the glass. On a glass worth of 200 Euros. Also not what I would call high end. This is just bad quality so far. I haven't given up on it completely but one more of this stuff not gone through the quality control or badly produced and I will send the whole shabbang back.



I have no complaints about the build quality of any of my Lee products. I dropped and broke a big stopper which is my fault. Maybe it's just me but if I have holes in my adapter ring, it doesn't bother me. To be honest, I never even looked at mine for imperfections. As long as it stays on the end of my lens and does what it is supposed to do, that's enough for me. 
I do think if you are paying 200 Euros for a filter and it has yellow dots over any part that is in the field of view, it should be sent back.


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## Valvebounce (Aug 1, 2014)

Hi brad-man. 
If it were my new kit it wouldn't be about spoiled pictures so much as expensive gear not up to standard. It is not unusual for the anodising support wires to leave marks, but for gear at this price point, a second dip with a repositioned support would have alleviated the problem and proved the quality of the product! 
If your going to play the big bucks game, you have to do big bucks quality, not just on bits of it but all of it! 

Cheers Graham.



brad-man said:


> M_S said:
> 
> 
> > I just bought a Lee filter system and I am really shocked about the build quality of that system. The adapter ring has a faulty finish with markings on it, which then were fixed with a pen as a cover up. After returning that adapter ring I got another one just like it. I conacted the manufacturer which explained to me that these markings are caused in the manufacturing process, quote: "The marks inside the ring are voids left during the anodising process. The rings are suspended in the solution by small wire 'hangers' and these leave voids where they touch the metal."
> ...


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## M_S (Aug 1, 2014)

brad-man said:


> As you have supplied wonderful photos of Lees shoddy workmanship in the manufacturing of your filter system, could you please supply a photo that was ruined by this inferior system?
> 
> No? I didn't think so.



Some expect a bit more of the gear they with their hard earned money buy, I guess. Like something they come to expect from other manufacturers: deliver flawlessly when it comes to such things as basic chemical treatments to an adapter ring. Never had that from any other manufacturer.
Let's say it this way: If you buy a car and it already has markings on the finish and the window is a bit broken or you can't get some color finish off of it, then you take it home anyways without questioning that for a second? Really odd attitute I must say. What "show me your pics" has got to do with that, is beyond me...

I did send the ND glass back for a replacement. Fingers crossed...


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## sagittariansrock (Aug 1, 2014)

PikkieChick said:


> Hi there
> Looking at buying my first batch of ND filters. Thought that a Hoya 3 stop and 6 stop would be a good start. My question is - can I stack these to achieve 9 stops using either a 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM or EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM.
> 
> I understand that the 16-35mm might vignette badly with stacked filters. Does anyone have experience with this ?
> ...



Hello PikkieChick

You do not get an X with regular ND filters (as you suggest stacking), whatever the focal length. Those "Maltese crosses" are exclusive to Variable ND filters as some of the member have mentioned.

I use the vaunted Lee system, but sometimes all you need is a quick reduction in light so you can shoot wide open. In that case. there is no real problem to stacking two ND filters, provided the following:

1. Buy good quality filters with minimal color cast- B+W or Heliopan, ideally. Top quality Hoya should be fine, too.
2. Make sure the filters work with your widest lens (in this case you're buying for 82mm filter threads, so that's fine).
3. Try to see if you can find slim mounts.
4. Make sure you have filter wrenches, cost only a few bucks.
5. Don't overtighten.
6. Expect some mechanical vignetting (no light due to the rim of the filters obscuring) up to 17-18mm, and probably some optical vignetting (reduced light due to reduced transmission in filter periphery) up to 20mm (probably correctable in post).

Now, if you find you are using 9 stops pretty frequently, or feel the need for graduated ND filters, then moving to the excellent Lee system makes a lot of sense. However, the Lee system is more bulky, expensive and the glass Big Stopper makes me nervous the minute I take it out of its tin.
So I would go ahead with the Hoya filters for now and maybe make a decision on the Lee system down the road if necessary.


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## Otter (Aug 1, 2014)

M_S said:


> brad-man said:
> 
> 
> > As you have supplied wonderful photos of Lees shoddy workmanship in the manufacturing of your filter system, could you please supply a photo that was ruined by this inferior system?
> ...



I am on the fence between the two parties speaking of the quality of these filters. I think we are talking about the difference of spots being on the disc breaks versus being on the outside of the car. If I have spots on my disc breaks(adapter), I do not care, if it's on the body(filter), there's a problem. If the wide angle adapter has some marks from being dipped a certain way, it really does not matter at the end of the day. You're just nitpicking at this point. Probably because you are unhappy with yellow spots on your very expensive pro filter. I would definitely send back the filter though. Unacceptable, whether it shows up in your shots or not. It may even be at the pixel level(noise) but you would be able to notice a difference if you put the two side by side and went over them with a fine tooth comb. Regardless at the 200 pound price point it shouldn't be happening. I have heard Lee has been really upped their production of their filters and that the quality is dropping a bit due to the mass production.
For the record, I have the Lee foundation kit, big and little stopper and a good amount of grad filters. I didn't go with their CPL because there is better on the market. I'm not sure if this makes me biased or not...


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## mackguyver (Aug 1, 2014)

If you don't want to spend all that cash for the Lee system, I can recommend the Tiffen ND filter kit:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/674667-REG/Tiffen_82NDK3_82mm_Digital_Neutral_Density.html

It's worked well for me for a couple of years now and the filters stack fine on their own or with my B+W XS-PRO C-PL, which is usually what I stack them with. Here are some sample shots from another ND filter thread:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=16796.msg414553#msg414553


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## brad-man (Aug 2, 2014)

M_S said:


> brad-man said:
> 
> 
> > As you have supplied wonderful photos of Lees shoddy workmanship in the manufacturing of your filter system, could you please supply a photo that was ruined by this inferior system?
> ...



Reading your post made me examine my one OEM Lee adapter and it also has the marks from anodizing. I would never have noticed them otherwise. I do not feel that they will effect the performance in any way. The adapters are, however, completely overpriced. If you decide to keep the system (which I would strongly recommend) you can purchase additional adapters of various sizes for different lenses from "the filter dude" on ebay for $25. They also have marks (as do all anodized products if you look closely enough) but no "worse" than Lees.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/the.filter.dude/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
I have never needed to use Lees warranty, but have never heard any complaints, so I'm sure they will send you a new filter.


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## PikkieChick (Aug 2, 2014)

Hi Everyone - thankyou for all of your help and comments, very helpful. As I travel, ALOT, the Lee filter system isn't possible. Would be lovely, but not possible. I've got a B+W Polariser already and have opted for hi end Hoya screw in filters, 3 and 6 stop. Will play with these for a bit and when I stop travelling might get a lore permanent system ! Fun times ahead !


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## kaihp (Aug 4, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> If you don't want to spend all that cash for the Lee system, I can recommend the Tiffen ND filter kit:
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/674667-REG/Tiffen_82NDK3_82mm_Digital_Neutral_Density.html
> 
> It's worked well for me for a couple of years now and the filters stack fine on their own or with my B+W XS-PRO C-PL, which is usually what I stack them with. Here are some sample shots from another ND filter thread:
> http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=16796.msg414553#msg414553



Alas, I cannot recommend Tiffen's ND0.9 filters as it reduces the contrast quite a lot.

Bryan Carnathan found the same thing in his 10-stop ND filter test


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## M_S (Aug 4, 2014)

Got my replacement adapter ring from my dealer. Great service btw: Calumet. From all the adapters I got, this looks ok. Still has those marks on either side, but not some specles or material damage as the other ones.

The ND pro glass looks ok too now, no yellow specles. I will look at that a bit closer when I have time.

So far I have then: 
* W/A adapter ring
* CPL adapter ring
* filter folder
* ND 0.9 por glass

Next will be either another ND 0.9, a little stopper or a big stopper. Haven't found any realiable info about color casts about the higher ND ones. 
Finally after that some soft grades an I am done.


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