# Ergonomics... Why you pay more for a 1D...



## clicstudio (Jun 8, 2012)

My very first Canon was a 10D with a grip in 2002... But I've been using exclusively 1D's since 2003.
And I couldn't go back to anything less...
My friend has a 5D. I love the quality but found the camera to be too small without a grip. He just received the BG-11E grip. After playing with it for a while I found the position of the buttons to be too uncomfortable and the ergonomics badly designed.
At first, you notice how flat the bottom of the grip is, it doesn't hug your hand, it is rough. The AF ON, * and grid buttons are too high and the joystick is too low. Keeping your index finger on the shutter and moving the joystick is very uncomfortable, the joystick is too low and you need to spread your fingers too much, therefore losing grip on the camera... Very bad. 
Using the camera on landscape mode, you realize the vertical version is totally off. In landscape, your thumb rests properly on a rubberized groove and the joystick is in the right position. The joystick is 1/2" inch lower on the grip compared to the camera. Meaning you have to "search" for it with your thumb to find it. It seems like a problem getting used to the different layout while shooting fast and switching from landscape to portrait... My friend is already aggravated and disappointed... I would be too...
Here is a layout comparison between a 1D X and a 5D III... The 5D is red, 1D is green.
Notice the thumb grooves and how low and awkward the 5D joystick is.
People think the 1D's are not worth the extra money... Hey, u get a 5D and get Digic 5, the same FF sensor, u get 4 extra MP, a BG-11E and still pay $3000 less than a 1D X... Well, u get what u pay for... A limited camera with bad ergonomics... 
I can't wait for my new 1D X....


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## smithy (Jun 8, 2012)

I think it's going too far to say that the 5D has "bad ergonomics". I find it immensely comfortable to use, with the only 'why did they do that' button placement being the playback zoom buttons. Yes, perhaps the 1Ds have _better_ ergonomics - and I certainly prefer the integrated grip look rather than the 'bolt-on' type - but mostly it seems like you have particular preferences that are determined by the size of your hands or simply habit.


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## Dylan777 (Jun 8, 2012)

Number 1 reason I don't buy 1D is....I CAN'T AFFORD IT ;D


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## bornshooter (Jun 8, 2012)

to say the 5d mk3 has bad ergonomics is absolute rubbish,now the d800 on the other hand...


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## Lee Jay (Jun 8, 2012)

On of the main reasons I never bought a 1D is ergonomics. The grips are too big for my hands, and the inability to remove the portrait grip for the 95% of the time I don't need it means I'm holding it and carrying it for no reason all that time.


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## westr70 (Jun 8, 2012)

smithy said:


> I think it's going too far to say that the 5D has "bad ergonomics". I find it immensely comfortable to use, with the only 'why did they do that' button placement being the playback zoom buttons. Yes, perhaps the 1Ds have _better_ ergonomics - and I certainly prefer the integrated grip look rather than the 'bolt-on' type - but mostly it seems like you have particular preferences that are determined by the size of your hands or simply habit.



I agree with Smithy. You've been using the ID for how many years and you say it's better than a camera that you've used for how long? Oh, that's right "playing with it for a while" and you decided to share your wisdom. My apologies for my sarcasm.


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## clicstudio (Jun 8, 2012)

smithy said:


> I think it's going too far to say that the 5D has "bad ergonomics". I find it immensely comfortable to use, with the only 'why did they do that' button placement being the playback zoom buttons. Yes, perhaps the 1Ds have _better_ ergonomics - and I certainly prefer the integrated grip look rather than the 'bolt-on' type - but mostly it seems like you have particular preferences that are determined by the size of your hands or simply habit.


No, I am not going too far. I am a professional photographer and I expect something professional or at least pro-sumer like a 5D to be better... 
There is always a pyramid of quality in most products. Be it cameras, electronics, cars, etc... 
The 1D's are the flagships. I can't expect a $3500 camera to look and feel as one that costs double but at least, the designers should take the time to position the buttons correctly. It doesn't cost them anything.
There are plenty of design flaws in most products in the market. I am not saying the 5D is a bad camera, just saying it has flaws that I can touch and feel as a professional photographer who, maybe, is used to expecting more...
It seems all of you 5D users fail to see the reality and can't accept the truth. 
I rented a 5D III for a whole week without a grip to see if I liked it. I was extremely happy with the quality of the camera... Build, photo quality, noise levels, focusing speed, screen... The best camera in the market so far, but this grip is just not right... It took me 5 seconds to realize there is something wrong with it. 
I am just sharing my opinion as a 12 year professional...
If you guys don't want to see it, it's not my problem cause I will never own a 5D III...
Cheers

P


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## clicstudio (Jun 8, 2012)

westr70 said:


> I agree with Smithy. You've been using the ID for how many years and you say it's better than a camera that you've used for how long? Oh, that's right "playing with it for a while" and you decided to share your wisdom. My apologies for my sarcasm.



I am not judging the camera, just the grip. The camera is by far the best on the market, for now, but the ergonomics are part of the daily use. If you shot 1000 photos a day, like I do, you would understand. Amateurs won't see it anyway...
My apologies for my sarcasm...


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## adamdoesmovies (Jun 8, 2012)

clicstudio said:


> westr70 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Smithy. You've been using the ID for how many years and you say it's better than a camera that you've used for how long? Oh, that's right "playing with it for a while" and you decided to share your wisdom. My apologies for my sarcasm.
> ...



Doing sports/action based photography, I can't see how anyone could manage to lug around a huge 1-series plus its lens all day without having serious back problems. I gave up the 1DII for the 7D, never looked back... The grip comes in handy sometimes, but usually it just makes the damn thing too big. 

That said, I enjoyed the 1 series - I've even shot some stuff on the 1DmkIV (mostly video). Obviously the image quality has the potential to be greater than any other body... but frankly I think it's more about what you've gotten used to, and what you need for the particular job you have. While the 1DmkII was every bit as fast as my 7D, better build quality, image quality, and crop factor - I was never able to shoot the whole day running around with it unless I wanted to experience extreme pain for the next several days. 6 hours and 4200 images into a tennis tournament with a 1D/70-200IS 2.8 around your neck? Screw the chiropractor, you'll need an orthopedic surgeon to correct that.


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## Lee Jay (Jun 8, 2012)

clicstudio said:


> westr70 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Smithy. You've been using the ID for how many years and you say it's better than a camera that you've used for how long? Oh, that's right "playing with it for a while" and you decided to share your wisdom. My apologies for my sarcasm.
> ...



I regularly shoot 2,000-4,000 shots in a single day, and find the 1D series to have poor ergonomics, while my 5D fits my hand like it was made just for me.


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## traveller (Jun 8, 2012)

clicstudio said:


> smithy said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's going too far to say that the 5D has "bad ergonomics". I find it immensely comfortable to use, with the only 'why did they do that' button placement being the playback zoom buttons. Yes, perhaps the 1Ds have _better_ ergonomics - and I certainly prefer the integrated grip look rather than the 'bolt-on' type - but mostly it seems like you have particular preferences that are determined by the size of your hands or simply habit.
> ...



You're trying to make it sound like you wrote your initial post to assist everyone, but I'm afraid that your tone made it come across like you were gloating at everyone who can't afford a 1D X... Rather than act defensive now, I'd suggest that you are a little bit more careful not to cause unnecessary offence in future. I would have thought that having to make your living as a photographer for the past twelve years would have made you a little bit more diplomatic.


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## Razor2012 (Jun 8, 2012)

bornshooter said:


> to say the 5d mk3 has bad ergonomics is absolute rubbish,now the d800 on the other hand...



I picked up a 800 at the trade show and I personally didn't like it that much. I don't know if it's the ergonomics or just the way it felt in my hands but definately not contoured like a Canon. It's like comparing a Xbox controller to a PS3 controller...I prefer the 360.


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## Razor2012 (Jun 8, 2012)

Lee Jay said:


> clicstudio said:
> 
> 
> > westr70 said:
> ...



Exactly, personal preference. Just because it's 'top-of-the-line' doesn't mean it's right for everyone.


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## sovietdoc (Jun 8, 2012)

Funny post, because the reason I buy 5D over 1D series is the fact that it doesn't have a grip. Oh and my 5D III is the most comfortable camera I've user used. If only they would have moved the delete button over to the right side... (I just use "Set" instead of magnify)

I shoot on hiking trips and outdoor events when you have to walk significant distances. The smaller and lighter the camera is = the better. If I could have the same IQ from a small and light point and shoot, I wouldn't even bother with a DSLR.


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## Neeneko (Jun 8, 2012)

Razor2012 said:


> I picked up a 800 at the trade show and I personally didn't like it that much. I don't know if it's the ergonomics or just the way it felt in my hands but definately not contoured like a Canon. It's like comparing a Xbox controller to a PS3 controller...I prefer the 360.



That is actually a good comparison.
While there are some generalities to ergonomics, they are not universal, and are heavily tied to familiarity. If you pick up something that has as a similar form factor to something you have a lot of muscle memory invested in it will feel off.

This is not to say that all complaints about ergonomics are just 'but it is new!', but it is an element that is important to account for.


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## awinphoto (Jun 8, 2012)

OP, you are making us professional photographers look bad and making us out to be snobs... I've shot with the 1d and 1ds series and been a working pro for the last decade. Is the 5d3 a 1dx or 1ds3? No. Does the 5d3 have a marginally better AF according to canon, maybe. Will the 1dx be better than the 5d3? Yes. With those answered, the 5d3 is leaps and bounds better than the 5d2 in almost every category. It's better than almost every camera under it. Do I expect a $3500 camera and a $300 grip to feel and act and perform like a $6900 camera? hell no. If you got the 1dx on order, kudos, but by the 5d3 being the second best camera in canon's lineup, that is no scarlet letter for this camera. It's a fine camera and very well may take as good of photos as the 1dx, it is a very very good camera.


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## Bombsight (Jun 8, 2012)

Ford vs. Chevy

Nikon vs. Canon

5DMK3 owners feeling inferior to the non-owning 1DX owners ....

What next? The p&S owners claiming the 5DMK3 IS TOO BIG? 

I think a lot of 5DMK3 owners, whining about Canon 1 series, need to shoot Olympus. I've heard of being pussy footed ..... but never pussy handed. ???

*The 1 series in NOT that heavy!*


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## distant.star (Jun 8, 2012)

.
This is funny.

Like a one-armed man arguing how much better a unicycle is than a bicycle.

Great entertainment value.


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## Razor2012 (Jun 8, 2012)

Bombsight said:


> Ford vs. Chevy
> 
> Nikon vs. Canon
> 
> ...



I've never felt inferior to non-1DX owners, nor do I whine about the 1 series.


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## RunAndGun (Jun 8, 2012)

To me, ALL of these are small and light weight compared to my primary cameras(I'm a TV photog)...

That being said, ergonomics on something like a camera that becomes an intimate part of you, an extension of you, is very important. But it's also very personal, too. What one person likes, another may not. That's one of the primary reasons I shoot with Fuji broadcast lenses over Canon broadcast lenses. I like the way the lens feels better to me. I have nothing against those that shoot with Canon glass on their cameras and there is nothing wrong with those that do choose to. They're not inferior to one another. (I know it's not a completely parallel comparison to two diff still cam series, I'm speaking of ergonomics). 

I don't have huge hands, so to me, 5 series bodies feel just fine. I'm also not shooting 1,000's of images in a day in portrait orientation, so I don't "need" a "gripped" camera, either. I have four still bodies (2 5DmkII, a 5DmkIII and an EOS 3) and non of them are gripped. The cameras still feel fine in my hand.


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## DB (Jun 8, 2012)

The original post on this thread is extremely valid - ergonomics is extremely important (why I personally choose Canon over Nikon).

I shoot with the 7D + grip and yesterday I tried a 5D2 without (even though it is slightly wider), the 7D feels more natural to hold, especially with one hand when not in use.

Seeing as new DSLR prices are so high, particularly the new accessories such as the BG-11 grip for the 5D3, why don't canon offer both 'tall' body (integrated grip) and 'regular' body options on all xD cameras? Obviously they could charge a premium, say +$500 for a tall 5D3, over a regular short body. After all, the interior tech is the same, just more magnesium alloy + weather seals. It would also kill off 3rd party 'knock-off' grip vendors.


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## Bombsight (Jun 8, 2012)

DB said:


> Seeing as new DSLR prices are so high, particularly the new accessories such as the BG-11 grip for the 5D3, why don't canon offer both 'tall' body (integrated grip) and 'regular' body options on all xD cameras? Obviously they could charge a premium, say +$500 for a tall 5D3, over a regular short body. After all, the interior tech is the same, just more magnesium alloy + weather seals. It would also kill off 3rd party 'knock-off' grip vendors.


Thats a great idea .... you're just going to have to wait 4 yrs for Canon to say you can pre-order it ... & another year to actually get it. :


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## briansquibb (Jun 8, 2012)

clicstudio said:


> I am not judging the camera, just the grip. The camera is by far the best on the market, for now, but the ergonomics are part of the daily use. If you shot 1000 photos a day, like I do, you would understand. Amateurs won't see it anyway...
> My apologies for my sarcasm...



What makes you think an amateur wont see it anyway? Why the put down of the amateur by a pro - the difference between a pro and an amateur is that the amateur does it for fun, the pro for money. Bad ergonomics would stop it being fun.

I shoot mostly in portrait and the ergonomics of the 1D are key to me.


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## Razor2012 (Jun 8, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> clicstudio said:
> 
> 
> > I am not judging the camera, just the grip. The camera is by far the best on the market, for now, but the ergonomics are part of the daily use. If you shot 1000 photos a day, like I do, you would understand. Amateurs won't see it anyway...
> ...



Also, just because a pro gets paid, that doesn't automatically make them good.


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## sovietdoc (Jun 8, 2012)

Razor2012 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > clicstudio said:
> ...



But if you get paid for your photography, it automatically makes you a pro. Regardless how horrible your photos look.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jun 8, 2012)

Well a non-gripped 5D3 sure beats the 1 series hands down for ergonomics IMO and you pay less to get the better ergonomics avoid the brick too.


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## nikkito (Jun 9, 2012)

All I want to say is that I don't care how heavy my camera is, all i care is the results i get.
I've travelled around Europe with my camera on my neck and 8 kilos of lenses on my backpack. Does my back hurts sometimes? Yes. But when I look at the pictures back at home I'm one happy camper.


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## smithy (Jun 9, 2012)

clicstudio said:


> ...I am a professional photographer and I expect something professional...
> ...it has flaws that I can touch and feel as a professional photographer who, maybe, is used to expecting more...
> ...I am just sharing my opinion as a 12 year professional...


To seemingly assume - in a camera forum of all places - that you're the only one here who has used a camera in a professional context is incredibly naive.

I've been using Canon EOS bodies continuously since the mid-90s (starting with the EOS 500), and I've never felt like any one of them has had bad ergonomics. It always take time to adjust to the feel of a new body, but really it's not that difficult (and it's advantageous to be flexible as a professional). For a creature of habit like yourself, the fact that the 1-series cameras haven't changed much in button placement over the years mean that it's the perfect solution for YOU. It's all about muscle memory. But obviously the built-in grip of the 1D cameras is going to be better than the bolt-on type, as I said in my earlier post - not just for ergonomics, but for build quality and weather proofing as well.

I have absolutely no doubt that you will LOVE your 1DX. I love the 1-series bodies - in fact I could have bought any of the currently available 1Ds instead of the 5D3 - but I'm very satisfied with my decision. There are just some places you can't go with a giant camera body unless you have a press pass...


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 9, 2012)

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still trying to figure out the POINT of the OP's post here? Looking for a reaction, what? I'm lost.


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## lonebear (Jun 9, 2012)

I couldn't agree even a teeny bit more. Anything less than 1D series must make me feel way less professional. Those small size models like Leica's must be amateurish. Couldn't believe someone would have stuck to Leica plus 50mm life long. Must be the king of amateurs, or the king of maybe ...


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## crasher8 (Jun 9, 2012)

I went from a T2i gripped to a 7D no grip. Gripping a smaller body doesn't necessarily make it more manageable but actually can create more awkward ergonomics. My 7D is just right for my man hands and I have no desire to grip it.


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## ScottyP (Jun 9, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still trying to figure out the POINT of the OP's post here? Looking for a reaction, what? I'm lost.



The OP just wants to impress on everyone listening that when he is looking to grip his rig, he requires something big and substantial, with some heft and girth to get both hands around.


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## briansquibb (Jun 9, 2012)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Well a non-gripped 5D3 sure beats the 1 series hands down for ergonomics IMO and you pay less to get the better ergonomics avoid the brick too.



I guess that statement is based on your experience which I assume doesn't include significant portait orientation.

Non gripped bodies are very difficult to move the AF point in real time when in portrait mode.


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## pwp (Jun 9, 2012)

clicstudio said:


> smithy said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's going too far to say that the 5D has "bad ergonomics". I find it immensely comfortable to use, with the only 'why did they do that' button placement being the playback zoom buttons.  Yes, perhaps the 1Ds have _better_ ergonomics - and I certainly prefer the integrated grip look rather than the 'bolt-on' type - but mostly it seems like you have particular preferences that are determined by the size of your hands or simply habit.
> ...



+1 Exactly. When you use both cameras on a daily basis in demanding high pressure environments, you notice all sorts of subtleties. The button placement of the BG-E11 is unfortunate. It's still a great camera, but the 1- Series bodies are unsurprisingly so much more refined. Interestingly the 5D3/BG-E11 is heavier, taller, thicker and overall bulkier than the 1D4. 

PW


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## pwp (Jun 9, 2012)

adamdoesmovies said:


> Doing sports/action based photography, I can't see how anyone could manage to lug around a huge 1-series plus its lens all day without having serious back problems. I gave up the 1DII for the 7D, never looked back... The grip comes in handy sometimes, but usually it just makes the damn thing too big.



Hmmm, maybe. I guess all those Canon shooters at elite sports events shooting with Mk4 & Mk3 bodies must be missing something. Expect 7D sales to surge.

PW


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## pwp (Jun 9, 2012)

traveller said:


> You're trying to make it sound like you wrote your initial post to assist everyone, but I'm afraid that your tone made it come across like you were gloating at everyone who can't afford a 1D X... Rather than act defensive now, I'd suggest that you are a little bit more careful not to cause unnecessary offense in future.



Horses for courses. I found the OP interesting and value the trouble he went to to overlay the controls of the 5D3 & the 1DX to illustrate his points. It was a well presented description coming out of direct experience. 

If it's pushing buttons for you, try sidestepping the emotion for a moment and see that he's offering a personal viewpoint that is 100% valid for him and plenty of others, but just may not mesh with everyone's position. And that's OK!

PW


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## wockawocka (Jun 9, 2012)

As a 1D owner I always dreamt of a smaller format bod.

Now I have one in the 5D3 I'd like a 1Dx thank you very much.


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## Bombsight (Jun 9, 2012)

Personally, if I pay 1,000's of dollars for a camera with a large body, I dont want to have to tighten half of it up every now & then.

Send that back breaker (1DX) to me asap, Canon! ;D


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 9, 2012)

pwp said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > You're trying to make it sound like you wrote your initial post to assist everyone, but I'm afraid that your tone made it come across like you were gloating at everyone who can't afford a 1D X... Rather than act defensive now, I'd suggest that you are a little bit more careful not to cause unnecessary offense in future.
> ...



Except that nobody cares. Anyone that has a 1D body and/or a 5D Mark III body likely isn't a novice and already knows all of this subjective garbage. And I can say that, because I do have a 1D Mark IV and a 5D Mark III. I love them both. What would I have to gain by going on a message board and starting a thread about how the 5D Mark III will never be the 1D Mark IV, etc. etc. Please don't take my post the wrong way, but really, there was no point at all considering the audience who owns these two cameras. Secondly, I did not pay what I paid for the 1D Mark IV for ergonomics. I paid for the fps, image quality, buffer capacity, autofocus speed. For ergonomics I have no problem with either the 5D Mark III or the 1D Mark IV. Like any tool, you learn how to use the tool. When I get a 1D X I certainly won't be on here flexing because I have one and paid for it for the ergonomics. In fact, I'd rather have a backup 5D Mark II in addition to my glass and other bodies instead of 1D X, at least right now. But yes, eventually I too will buy the 1D X and have it with my 5D Mark III.


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## lonelywhitelights (Jun 9, 2012)

The OP's post just seems like a blog post to me. yet he's posted it here knowing for sure he's going to get some kind of reaction.

but - he's obviously the kind of person that uses his equipment as a crutch to hold up his own personal issues with size and other inadequacies.

Look at all my amazing gear! isn't it wonderful!?... but please don't look at my photos! ever!


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## clicstudio (Jun 9, 2012)

DB said:


> The original post on this thread is extremely valid - ergonomics is extremely important (why I personally choose Canon over Nikon).
> 
> I shoot with the 7D + grip and yesterday I tried a 5D2 without (even though it is slightly wider), the 7D feels more natural to hold, especially with one hand when not in use.
> 
> Seeing as new DSLR prices are so high, particularly the new accessories such as the BG-11 grip for the 5D3, why don't canon offer both 'tall' body (integrated grip) and 'regular' body options on all xD cameras? Obviously they could charge a premium, say +$500 for a tall 5D3, over a regular short body. After all, the interior tech is the same, just more magnesium alloy + weather seals. It would also kill off 3rd party 'knock-off' grip vendors.


I thought the same... The brains can stay the same. Just add the extension... I would consider a 5D III as a backup camera if that was the case...
Cheers


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## clicstudio (Jun 9, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> clicstudio said:
> 
> 
> > I am not judging the camera, just the grip. The camera is by far the best on the market, for now, but the ergonomics are part of the daily use. If you shot 1000 photos a day, like I do, you would understand. Amateurs won't see it anyway...
> ...


I shoot girls only. 90% of the time I shoot portrait. Try shooting portrait with a grip-less camera and you will get carpal tunnel in 5 minutes. Not to mention, without a grip, the whole weight of the camera is resting on your bent wrist, like a crane. Position of your wrist is very important. A relaxed wrist will let you work better and longer...
The grip gives you more natural support and a better, well, "grip" on the camera...
:


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## clicstudio (Jun 9, 2012)

Razor2012 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > clicstudio said:
> ...


Look at my website... I assure you nobody has more fun shooting than I do... And I get paid too...


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## clicstudio (Jun 9, 2012)

smithy said:


> clicstudio said:
> 
> 
> > ...I am a professional photographer and I expect something professional...
> ...


I don't have a press pass... I shoot 70% at the studio and 30% outdoors. And 90% of the time I shoot in portrait.
Like I said before, try shooting portrait for 3 hours straight with ANY grip-less camera... Your bent wrist, your arm over the camera, your strained fingers and no support from your body... Come on! Whoever says a grip is not necessary doesn't shoot enough or doesn't want to admit it... Try putting a Canon 600 EX-RT on a grip less camera... There is NO WAY you can hold the weight of the camera without hurting yourself... Even a 70-200 2.8. Hand Held Cameras simply don't have enough support without the grip... And that is a fact...
I am not criticizing the 5D... Like I said before, it's the best camera in the market (until the 1DX comes out, of course ) Just pointing out the bad ergonomics of the buttons on the grip, ONLY, on the grip.


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## clicstudio (Jun 9, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still trying to figure out the POINT of the OP's post here? Looking for a reaction, what? I'm lost.


Not looking for a reaction. Just trying to show how even Canon can make mistakes. Ergonomics are as important in a camera as its photographic qualities.


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## clicstudio (Jun 9, 2012)

pwp said:


> adamdoesmovies said:
> 
> 
> > Doing sports/action based photography, I can't see how anyone could manage to lug around a huge 1-series plus its lens all day without having serious back problems. I gave up the 1DII for the 7D, never looked back... The grip comes in handy sometimes, but usually it just makes the damn thing too big.
> ...


Right on!


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## clicstudio (Jun 9, 2012)

pwp said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > You're trying to make it sound like you wrote your initial post to assist everyone, but I'm afraid that your tone made it come across like you were gloating at everyone who can't afford a 1D X... Rather than act defensive now, I'd suggest that you are a little bit more careful not to cause unnecessary offense in future.
> ...


Thank you PW. Finally someone sees my point. I spent time putting the "presentation" together. I don't even own a 5D III. It started with my friend complaining the joystick was off too low. I picked it up and instantly felt he was right...
People are getting defensive thinking I am bashing the 5D. I am just complaining that Canon is making design mistakes.


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## neuroanatomist (Jun 9, 2012)

clicstudio said:


> I am just complaining that Canon is making design mistakes.



Thing is, ergonomics are in the hands of the holder, and hands differ. Your very nice composite image shows that the joystick position on the 1D X lies at the junction of the 5DIII and the grip, clearly a problematic place for Canon to locate it on the BG-E11. 

Personally, I'm also waiting for my preordered 1D X - and ergonomics (including the integrated grip) are one reason I chose that over a gripped 5DIII.


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 9, 2012)

clicstudio said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still trying to figure out the POINT of the OP's post here? Looking for a reaction, what? I'm lost.
> ...



Right. I'm with you on the 1D bodies. But I just don't know that anyone was saying that Canon didn't make mistakes.


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## DarkKnightNine (Jun 10, 2012)

clicstudio said:


> smithy said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's going too far to say that the 5D has "bad ergonomics". I find it immensely comfortable to use, with the only 'why did they do that' button placement being the playback zoom buttons. Yes, perhaps the 1Ds have _better_ ergonomics - and I certainly prefer the integrated grip look rather than the 'bolt-on' type - but mostly it seems like you have particular preferences that are determined by the size of your hands or simply habit.
> ...




I would have to agree with the OP that the ergonomics of the 5D Mark III pail in comparison to a 1D Series body even with the battery grip. But like him, it is a matter of our professional opinion. No need to attack him or be sarcastic. You actually might learn something if you aren't caught up in the 5D Mk III love affair. EVERY electronic gear has it's flaws and the people who follow companies like Canon and Apple want to attack professional users for pointing out those flaws instead of having an open mind about the possibility that they might exist. That kind of blind worship doesn't help the company engineer better products and in the end, it doesn't help you as the end user either because the company feels confident they can ship just about anything and make a profit (flaws included). 


I'm using the 5D Mark III everyday in my studio until the 1DX is finally released, but is has been a love/hate relationship and I really do miss the ergonomics of my 1D Mark IV. For me (and the OP) the buttons of a 1D series just feel like they are in a better position.


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## DarkKnightNine (Jun 10, 2012)

pwp said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > You're trying to make it sound like you wrote your initial post to assist everyone, but I'm afraid that your tone made it come across like you were gloating at everyone who can't afford a 1D X... Rather than act defensive now, I'd suggest that you are a little bit more careful not to cause unnecessary offense in future.
> ...




Exactly. Why do people in this forum feel a need to attack each other personally? I almost quit coming here all together because that assinine attitude. The guy went through a lot of trouble to illustrate his point and whether you agree with his opinion or not, at least have some courtesy. Another thing I want to point out is that people are always trying to read emotions into each other's posts. I was called arrogant once by another poster because I had some doubts and questions about my 5D Mark III purchase. It was really silly because if he'd ever met me, he would know that I'm really a nice guy. Besides an arrogant person doesn't come to forums looking for answers, because he/she already think they know-it-all. lol


I'm just encouraging you guys to be respectful and not read anything extra into posts. We can have intelligent conversation, learn from each other, and disagree without being offensive as that's what forums are for. 
Thanks (MHO)


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## Razor2012 (Jun 10, 2012)

DarkKnightNine said:


> clicstudio said:
> 
> 
> > smithy said:
> ...



First of all why are you guys even getting worked up over the ergonomics between the 1 series and the 5 series? Two different bodies. So just because the buttons aren't in the same position, right away it becomes a flawed camera? You can't expect them to be the same, it's not physically possible when you are adding a grip. Really, what's there to see? It's obvious that they are two different cameras, both internally and externally. If the OP had come out and said, hey guys I've used the 5DIII and the button layout is a bit off for me, that's one thing. But to say "Well, u get what u pay for... A limited camera with bad ergonomics... ", what do you expect for a reaction?


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## Razor2012 (Jun 10, 2012)

DarkKnightNine said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > traveller said:
> ...



Maybe we need to learn how to express ourselves properly. Then I think there would be alot less fighting.


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## gary (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm somewhat surprised that no mention is made to the variance in the sizes of hands and fingers which will obviously have a considerable effect on how easy a camera is to manage. I am not a professional with a 5d111 and with a larger lens find it difficult to manage so will buy a grip to balance the weight better. The balance in the hand with a smaller lens I find fine and the buttons I find accessible. My daughter who is a professional photographer has hands and fingers that are considerably smaller than mine and finds the buttons awkward. I suspect Canon will never be able to please everyone completely, due to our differences, they are forced to place the buttons somewhere. As I mentioned on another thread it would have been helpful if all the buttons were programable and this may have helped users.


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## briansquibb (Jun 10, 2012)

gary said:


> I'm somewhat surprised that no mention is made to the variance in the sizes of hands and fingers which will obviously have a considerable effect on how easy a camera is to manage. I am not a professional with a 5d111 and with a larger lens find it difficult to manage so will buy a grip to balance the weight better. The balance in the hand with a smaller lens I find fine and the buttons I find accessible. My daughter who is a professional photographer has hands and fingers that are considerably smaller than mine and finds the buttons awkward. I suspect Canon will never be able to please everyone completely, due to our differences, they are forced to place the buttons somewhere. As I mentioned on another thread it would have been helpful if all the buttons were programable and this may have helped users.



Different hand sizes are a major point with camera bodies. My hands are very much on the large end of the scale (nearly 10-1/2 inch span) so my 7D feels tiny, even the 1 series is not very large for me - so it will clearly be that what fits me wont fit others. Same applies to weight of camera + lens.


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## JEAraman (Jun 10, 2012)

clicstudio said:


> My very first Canon was a 10D with a grip in 2002... But I've been using exclusively 1D's since 2003.
> And I couldn't go back to anything less...
> My friend has a 5D. I love the quality but found the camera to be too small without a grip. He just received the BG-11E grip. After playing with it for a while I found the position of the buttons to be too uncomfortable and the ergonomics badly designed.
> At first, you notice how flat the bottom of the grip is, it doesn't hug your hand, it is rough. The AF ON, * and grid buttons are too high and the joystick is too low. Keeping your index finger on the shutter and moving the joystick is very uncomfortable, the joystick is too low and you need to spread your fingers too much, therefore losing grip on the camera... Very bad.
> ...



I admit, the OP's post did appear boastful, but the point that the 5d3 + Grip isn't ver ergonomic is valid.. I wonder why Canon didn't make the button layouts similar. I mean they DID give the 5d3 so many of the 1DX features...why stop at the button layout.. Same way the OP layered the pics... I'm sure the designers at Canon could have easily worked something out.


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## Razor2012 (Jun 10, 2012)

JEAraman said:


> clicstudio said:
> 
> 
> > My very first Canon was a 10D with a grip in 2002... But I've been using exclusively 1D's since 2003.
> ...



Looking at those OP's overlays, a person can see that it's physically impossible to duplicate the button layout on the 5DIII body, especially when adding a grip. So with this rationale, I should be bashing the 60D for not having the same layout as the 5DIII?


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## JEAraman (Jun 10, 2012)

Razor2012 said:


> JEAraman said:
> 
> 
> > clicstudio said:
> ...




I'm sure if it were being designed from scratch, and that was what the designer had in mind, I'm sure it could be done. The whole design would change.. anyways.. the 1 Series will always have "better" ergonomics, features etc... it's their flagship camera after all..... not to mention their most elusive camera yet!


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## MacDogMcCrunchie (Jun 10, 2012)

My 1Ds III and 1D MK IV paid my mortgage and kept my kids happy in the fashion stakes so I have no complaints with the gear. However, after 3 years of abuse - the 1Ds needed updating and naturally the 5D III was the choice to select. When you have giant sausage fingers like mine - you have to use a grip otherwise you press 3 buttons at once - so my supplier ensured it came with the grip and the OP is right in the initial assessment - the joystick is in a dog awful low position - but also - 5 minutes using it you see why it has to be lower to fit the design of the 5D III and naturally - as in any profession - you adapt and move on to earn some dollars - a week on and it is second nature - the camera and grip feel very comfortable - so much so that my 1D IV now sits in the bag taking a well earned rest.


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## meli (Jun 10, 2012)

The design & ergonomics of the grip area in 1D series is an integral part of the concept for the camera sharing the same budget, resources & R&D whereas the design for any grip is kept to a minimum necessary (just styling actually) since its an accessory. 

Accessory grip ergonomics could have been resolved/updated even within the limitations imposed by the form if companies would spend for proper R&D, thing is it doesn't make sense from a market point of view. (there wont be a significant sales shift plus grips are intended as cash cows).


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## Razor2012 (Jun 10, 2012)

That's why you have a top series and the ones that fall underneath. People that need more in a camera usually move up in the scale depending on what their needs are, how much they can afford, etc. It's funny that people complain about lower tier cameras when they have the top.


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## smithy (Jun 10, 2012)

MacDogMcCrunchie said:


> My 1Ds III and 1D MK IV paid my mortgage and kept my kids happy in the fashion stakes so I have no complaints with the gear. However, after 3 years of abuse - the 1Ds needed updating and naturally the 5D III was the choice to select. When you have giant sausage fingers like mine - you have to use a grip otherwise you press 3 buttons at once - so my supplier ensured it came with the grip and the OP is right in the initial assessment - the joystick is in a dog awful low position - but also - 5 minutes using it you see why it has to be lower to fit the design of the 5D III and naturally - as in any profession - you adapt and move on to earn some dollars - a week on and it is second nature - the camera and grip feel very comfortable - so much so that my 1D IV now sits in the bag taking a well earned rest.


This is an example of good adaptability! What do you think of the 5D3 so far, having come from using the 1DS3 and 1D4?


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## MacDogMcCrunchie (Jun 10, 2012)

Personally/Historically - the 1D MK IV is the best Canon camera I have ever used as in last 2 years of day in / day out usage. It felt right in my hands and produced the goods daily. I tried the 5D3 without grip and it was too small - purely because I am fat fingered - nothing against the camera. However, with the BG-E11grip and a natural bedding in - it is without doubt the best camera / grip combination outside the 1D series. Its very solid / not flimsy and I placed a Sigma 120-300mm F2.8 OS on it and it felt very firm and handled well - which is a key element of a vertical grip combo with the larger lenses.

The 5D III is a very solid camera and ticks my box.


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## westr70 (Jun 11, 2012)

Hmmm....... can't believe this thread is still going but hey what the heck. There is good information here and while I am enjoying the 5d3 as it is, I'm getting interested in trying the grip. I have large hands and it would be interesting to have more to latch on to. I'd like to get another lens for my video work but the grip would be nice for the straight photography aspect. Decisions, decisions.


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## pwp (Jun 11, 2012)

westr70 said:


> Hmmm....... can't believe this thread is still going but hey what the heck. There is good information here and while I am enjoying the 5d3 as it is, I'm getting interested in trying the grip. I have large hands and it would be interesting to have more to latch on to. I'd like to get another lens for my video work but the grip would be nice for the straight photography aspect. Decisions, decisions.



If you have large hands the perceived ergonomic anomalies of the BG-E11 will be less noticeable than for the digitally challenged ( I'm talking finger/hand size...!). Get the BG-E11 as soon as practical. It's bulkier than previous grips but that shouldn't bother your fortunate physiology.

PW


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## hoghavemercy (Jun 11, 2012)

Does that mean the OP goes around town and looks for people who own a 5D3 and tells em "Uh you got a bad ergonomics there" hopefully somebody who happens to have a .45 and a shovel is willing to tell him otherwise.. :'(


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## sanj (Jun 11, 2012)

I think Clisstudio has a valid point of view and he has expressed it VERY well WITHOUT being rude at all. 
It this forum not about this? 
Sanjay


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## tomscott (Jun 11, 2012)

I think saying the 1DX is worth £3000 more because the ergonomics are better is a bit strong. 

You get a lot more with the 1DX in terms of features and the camera is designed for a different situation. You also get used to what you shoot too and in your case stepping from a pro camera to a 5D which is also a pro camera but on the higher scale of pro-sumer rather than pro of corse it will be different. The 1D is also designed specifically with the grip whereas the 5D isnt therfore there is only a finite amount of space on the back with the expectation of huge screens and the grip is an extra which makes things easier, but not fully integrated which makes the ergonomics harder to achieve.

But as it is a pro-sumer camera the size is important the 1D is too heavy and bulky to carry around for the more consumer side of the scale and thats whats nice about the 5D is its smaller size factor. 

Its like chalk and cheese. Also depends on what your used to and how big your hands are. Kind of a silly argument really. The 5D is best of both worlds and for 99% of people not worth 50% extra, even for a lot of pros.


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## pwp (Jun 11, 2012)

hoghavemercy said:


> Does that mean the OP goes around town and looks for people who own a 5D3 and tells em "Uh you got a bad ergonomics there" hopefully somebody who happens to have a .45 and a shovel is willing to tell him otherwise.. :'(



Well that's very sweet of you Hog Have Mercy. As well as being an undisguised flame, it almost amounts to a threat. There is absolutely no place for this sort of sentiment on CR or any list. 

PW


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## briansquibb (Jun 11, 2012)

pwp said:


> hoghavemercy said:
> 
> 
> > Does that mean the OP goes around town and looks for people who own a 5D3 and tells em "Uh you got a bad ergonomics there" hopefully somebody who happens to have a .45 and a shovel is willing to tell him otherwise.. :'(
> ...



Totally agree


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## wickidwombat (Jun 11, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > hoghavemercy said:
> ...



yeah everyone knows .45 dont have enough DR...


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## sanj (Jun 11, 2012)

LOL


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## smithy (Jun 11, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > pwp said:
> ...


I'm waiting for it to appear on DXOMark before deciding on that...


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## HarryWintergreen (Jun 11, 2012)

The old story: once you happened to get your hands on a 1D you can't help but seeing the sub-1D-bodies as a bit inferior. So keep your fingers away from it - that's at least what I do. :


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 11, 2012)

tomscott said:


> I think saying the 1DX is worth £3000 more because the ergonomics are better is a bit strong.
> 
> You get a lot more with the 1DX in terms of features and the camera is designed for a different situation. You also get used to what you shoot too and in your case stepping from a pro camera to a 5D which is also a pro camera but on the higher scale of pro-sumer rather than pro of corse it will be different. The 1D is also designed specifically with the grip whereas the 5D isnt therfore there is only a finite amount of space on the back with the expectation of huge screens and the grip is an extra which makes things easier, but not fully integrated which makes the ergonomics harder to achieve.
> 
> ...



Yes but you have to remember, most of the people who bash the 5D Mark II and 5D Mark III don't own and have never owned them. Also, the people who praise and glorify the 1D X also don't own it. Amazing.


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## Razor2012 (Jun 11, 2012)

bdunbar79 said:


> tomscott said:
> 
> 
> > I think saying the 1DX is worth £3000 more because the ergonomics are better is a bit strong.
> ...



Lol why is that? Why are 1 series owners (and soon to be 1DX owners) complaining about the 5 series? It's not like Canon came out with a new 1 series and changed the button layout, then I could see people having valid complaints. :


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## epsiloneri (Jun 11, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Different hand sizes are a major point with camera bodies. My hands are very much on the large end of the scale (nearly 10-1/2 inch span) so my 7D feels tiny, even the 1 series is not very large for me - so it will clearly be that what fits me wont fit others. Same applies to weight of camera + lens.



Aha, that explains why you claim the 400/2.8 to be handholdable _to you_


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## briansquibb (Jun 12, 2012)

epsiloneri said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Different hand sizes are a major point with camera bodies. My hands are very much on the large end of the scale (nearly 10-1/2 inch span) so my 7D feels tiny, even the 1 series is not very large for me - so it will clearly be that what fits me wont fit others. Same applies to weight of camera + lens.
> ...



Not a claim - a fact. But yes to me, even though as a pensioner I am a lot weaker than I used to be


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## pwp (Jun 12, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Different hand sizes are a major point with camera bodies. My hands are very much on the large end of the scale (nearly 10-1/2 inch span)



Brian I hope you play the piano! It would be a pity for that effortless two octave reach to go to waste!

PW


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## briansquibb (Jun 12, 2012)

pwp said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Different hand sizes are a major point with camera bodies. My hands are very much on the large end of the scale (nearly 10-1/2 inch span)
> ...



Yes I did try the piano but it is difficult when your fingers are big as well. So I did the next best thing -played rugby 

Being large is an issue which you have to get used to, an asset and a handicap at the same time - particularly with cameras as they come in one size fits all. Designing must be a nightmare - especially when the trend is getting everything small. 

To me the G12 is a good P&S whereas to others it is a brick. Canon (and other manufacturers) cannot please all because people are just different. When it comes to ergonomics it is a compromise when working out how far apart buttons should be

I am dreading the day when touch screens are the norm


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## Razor2012 (Jun 12, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



Maybe by then we'll have holographic displays.


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## smithy (Jun 12, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Yes I did try the piano but it is difficult when your fingers are big as well. So I did the next best thing -played rugby


Where I come from, playing rugby is considered far more important than playing the piano.


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## Razor2012 (Jun 12, 2012)

smithy said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I did try the piano but it is difficult when your fingers are big as well. So I did the next best thing -played rugby
> ...



Where I come from, having the wife play the organ...errr, I mean piano is priority one. ;D


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## FunPhotons (Jun 13, 2012)

Razor2012 said:


> smithy said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



Ah, _piano_, meaning soft. 

Left yourself open there, had to take it ...


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## RLPhoto (Jun 13, 2012)

1D cameras are more high speed, low drag but not so much when you lug em around all day. You'll be high drag, low speed. ;D


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## briansquibb (Jun 13, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> 1D cameras are more high speed, low drag but not so much when you lug em around all day. You'll be high drag, low speed. ;D



I take the 1D4 and 1Ds3 around all day on a BW harness all day

Today I have an outdoor modelling session this morning where I will be using the 1Ds3 and 200/f2. Probably do some landscaping after that is the weather holds up.


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## JEAraman (Jun 13, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > 1D cameras are more high speed, low drag but not so much when you lug em around all day. You'll be high drag, low speed. ;D
> ...



I want!!!!


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## briansquibb (Jun 13, 2012)

JEAraman said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > RLPhoto said:
> ...



From this morning - 1ds3, 200 @f/2.8, iso800, 1/800. With flash on PW. No pp except a little sharpening


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