# How much better would the 5D mkIV have to be for you to upgrade from your mkiii?



## jdramirez (Jul 18, 2013)

I'm a recent 5D mkiii cult member and I really like it. I'm not quite sure that I buy into all the hype that full frame takes your photos to the next level and you'll look back at your old crop sensor photos with disgust and loathing. But I do like the mkiii. I feel it is a more than adequate upgrade from my 60D and it was well worth the money it cost to upgrade (Cost of mkiii minus the money I received from the sale of my 60D). 

I haven't fully tested the low light performance of the mkiii though I will acknowledge it is superior to the 60D and the frames per second is more than satisfactory, and the auto focus is excellent... Basically I don't have any REAL complaints about the mkiii where as I did have some issues with the 60D (not afma, low light performance, rubber grips starting to come off, etc.) and I didn't want to upgrade to the 5D mkii because of the AF performance and the lack of the cross type peripheral AF points and the meh shots per second rate. 

But my contention is that the 5D mkiii is practically the perfect mix of performance and durability for me. So why wouldn't I keep it for 7 years (when then mkV is released and presumably the mkiii is about to die)? What features would drive me to consider upgrading prematurely and by extension, what features would drive yall to upgrade?

The launch price for the mkiii body was $3500 which sounded astronomical at the time. If the mkiv's launch price is $4000, but you sell the mkiii for $1700 making the upgrade "only" $2300.

So the aforementioned question is 'How much better would the mkiv have to be for you to upgrade from the mkiii'? And I'm sorry that this basically excludes all non-mkiii owners, but ya'll haven't drank the Kool-aid yet.


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## maxpayne (Jul 18, 2013)

I will upgrade if it can improve iso 25600 to be as clean as iso 6400 
Wifi + GPS is nice to have & I think canon will include these anyway, just look at the trend with 70D.
For AF system, I hope canon can make all of the current 61 point to be cross type.


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## RGF (Jul 18, 2013)

Either I want more MP or better low light. But for low light I have the 1Dx, so that leaves more MP.


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## dirtcastle (Jul 18, 2013)

1. More dynamic range
2. Drop some weight 0.5lb (8oz)
3. Video: native RAW, 1080/60p, and improved audio recording
4. Wifi
5. Horizon level guide


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## Harry Muff (Jul 18, 2013)

dirtcastle said:


> 5. Horizon level guide






Confused by this. The 5D3 already has a built in spirit level for both the screen and viewfinder.




Anyhoo, only thing I would like on my 5D3 is the 6D's WiFi. It looks like fun.


Other that that, just the usual higher ISO, less noise please Canon. I'm good with the current MP.


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## Aglet (Jul 18, 2013)

5d3's feature set and hi iso seems just fine if I were to have one but I won't buy another Canon any-body until their base ISO is as least as clean and low noise as it is in a $400 Nikon d5100. Flame away, I'm wearing my zirconia coat.


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## dirtcastle (Jul 18, 2013)

Harry Muff said:


> dirtcastle said:
> 
> 
> > 5. Horizon level guide
> ...


Thank you for pointing this out. I just found it in the manual. Now I can check it off my list.


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## Grumbaki (Jul 18, 2013)

To upgrade it on launch day? All of the above plus DR and dual CF slots.

To upgrade to it in general? One of my bodies to die. Preferably the 60D not the 5d3.

The idea beyond is that now that I got used to it, I dont even think about going back. Or maybe Lubitel/Diana.


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## infared (Jul 18, 2013)

1. Two stops improved noise performance.
2. Improved Dynamic Range
3. Two Compact Flash card slots that operate at equal rates
4. Expanded AF points
5. Higher Silent Frame Rate

I do not have the need for a larger file.


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## tnargs (Jul 18, 2013)

I don't even have a 5D, but I already know my answer to this one. NOTHING would make me upgrade, because I keep my bodies for 2 generations between upgrades.

I consider it absurd to be desperately chasing the next model when I already have the current model.


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## Alrik89 (Jul 18, 2013)

I miss the vote for "16 stops of dynamic range!!!!1111"


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## PhotographiesND (Jul 18, 2013)

As I like to do macro photography, I am exepected for :
- a better dynamic range
- a higher raw file (a bigger sensor)

I would like also :
- A radio controller for flash
- A pop-up flash
- A better weight balance with grip

=> In my mind, the 5DM3 is a really good product but not enough finished


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## BozillaNZ (Jul 18, 2013)

1. properly illuminated VF (i.e. previous 1D like)
2. better vertical grip integration to body
Bonus for more dynamic range, maybe 14 stops?

If those 2 can me meet I will be interested in getting a 5D again.


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## Zv (Jul 18, 2013)

I've decided to skip the 5DIII upgrade and wait to see if the 5D4 will be a big enough leap forward to even consider upgrading. Quite happy with the Mk2 right now. 

Things I would like to see in a 5D4 are WIFI (I think all cameras should have this including the EOS M2), a new improved sensor, two stops better high ISO usability (three or four better than the 5D2), 8fps, 1/250 or above X-sync (keep dreaming!), built in radio transceiver for off camera flash (never going to happen!), a bigger better higher resolution touchscreen, a way to toggle functions like enabling back button focus using a dedicaded fully programable button or two, 4 custom mode dial settings and a shed load of DR to shut all these DR freaks up for good! 

Amen.


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## mrsfotografie (Jul 18, 2013)

Zv said:


> I've decided to skip the 5DIII upgrade and wait to see if the 5D4 will be a big enough leap forward to even consider upgrading. Quite happy with the Mk2 right now.



I concur.

So I choose "2 stops of improved and usable ISO performance (low light capabilities)" compared to the MkIII to make me upgrade to a MkIV from my MkII.

Going from a MkII to a MkIII is not worth it IQ-wise.


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## Ricku (Jul 18, 2013)

No pattern noise in the shadows, and a hefty bump of dynamic range. Preferably even better than SoNikon's D800-sensor.

That would be enough to make me upgrade.

It is quite simple really, but apparently not so simple for Canon's engineers?


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## JohanCruyff (Jul 18, 2013)

What about a "Nikon-D7100-like" crop-shooting mode? 

To me it would make definitely more sense on a FF body: shooting @ 14 MPixel rather than 24 (=APS-H)with much faster FPS and AFpoints covering all the reduced frame.


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## Bob Howland (Jul 18, 2013)

I would upgrade for some combination of much better dynamic range, better high ISO image quality, more pixels and higher FPS, in decreasing order of importance. I don't expect these improvements to be compelling enough to upgrade until the 5D5.


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## DigiAngel (Jul 18, 2013)

the only real reason i upgraded from the mk II was the one billion times better autofocus system of the mk III. 

other than that i was pretty statisfied even with the mk II so i dont think i´ll buy a mk IV.

but if i would do, i´d like:
- better high iso performance
- better dynamic range
- a second fast storage card slot
- faster liveview af
- maybe a radio controller for speedlites, if the whole system comes for a reasonable price

what i really dont need for my work are higher pixel counts and faster framerates.


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## Marsu42 (Jul 18, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> And I'm sorry that this basically excludes all non-mkiii owners, but ya'll haven't drank the Kool-aid yet.



Imho everybody who though about getting a 5d3 and then, considered the price, opted to skip it or go for a 6d/5d2 can have some valid opinion on this? So for me spending €3000+ on a 5d4 I'd like to have:

* red af servo indicator like they managed on the 1dx, but obviously weren't able to to on the 5d3
* spot metering linked to af point - yes, "1d feature", but should be very helpful for high contrast tracking
* rgb metering like Nikon & Canon 1d
* built-in rt controller (saving €300 st-e3 price & bulk)
* higher dynamic range at all iso, iso/res could stay as it is as far as I'm concerned


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## Dylan777 (Jul 18, 2013)

Voted: 2 stops of improved and usable ISO performance (low light capabilities). Others are not important to me.


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## Vossie (Jul 18, 2013)

+ video AF (similar to 70D)
+ RT flash controller built-in

Eye-control AF (such as my EOS 3 has) would also be nice to quickly select an AF point without having to use the joy-stick.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 18, 2013)

I'm happy with 5D3. I could use it until it dies.


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## beckstoy (Jul 18, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I'm happy with 5D3. I could use it until it dies.




+1

Love my 5DM3!


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## cervantes (Jul 18, 2013)

For 2300$ i would upgrade if 5DIV was the 1DX without the battery grip.


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## infared (Jul 18, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I'm happy with 5D3. I could use it until it dies.



There is a LOT to be said for that... I love mine, too!


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## steliosk (Jul 18, 2013)

- swirl screen (its a low angle and a video tool gddamn it)

- higher dynamic range (thats critical)

- noiseless shadows when pushed up in post processing (way too critical, although ML does a GREAT job while canon genius firmware developers can't)

- faster AF in live view (its a shame for a $ 3000 equipment to have the same performance like 450D which was the first LV camera with AF (when shutter pressed) back in 2007)

- dual and FAST SD cards (get rid of this expensive stupid and outdated CF junk)

- wireless flash triggering would be nice (600D has one, and the pro series does not?)


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## Rienzphotoz (Jul 18, 2013)

Hmmm? :-\ ... since it is a few more years before the 5D IV arrives, I would rather wait and see what new progress is made in the world of camera bodies.


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## kaihp (Jul 18, 2013)

steliosk said:


> - dual and FAST SD cards (get rid of this expensive stupid and outdated CF junk)



Allow me to politely disagree. If a 5D4 would come with SD card slots only, I would avoid it for that single reason, regardless of anything else.

But then again, I don't think I would be in the market for a 5D4 - I'm totally happy with my 5D3


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## awinphoto (Jul 18, 2013)

It would have to cook a mean steak and brew a superb cup of coffee. lol. At this point in a year or two or three we will see in what ways I feel limited and go from there, but as of now things are going great.


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## cayenne (Jul 18, 2013)

Hmm...is there actually rumors of a 5D4 coming, so soon after the 5D3 release?

Me? Well, I think if they put native RAW video out via the HDMI or USB 3.0 or other output they come up with into an external recorder, that might sway me....

cayenne


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## bvukich (Jul 18, 2013)

kaihp said:


> steliosk said:
> 
> 
> > - dual and FAST SD cards (get rid of this expensive stupid and outdated CF junk)
> ...



Sorry for a lame "me too" post... But yeah, me too.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 18, 2013)

Two stops of ISO? I don't think that's theoretically possible. 1/2 stop of ISO is a big difference.
The difference between the original 5D and the 5D MK III is less than 1 stop. The original 5D is the lowest scoring Canon FF sensor (as far as high ISO is concerned) that DXO has measured.

Even the 1D X is a hair less than 1 stop better than the original 5D.


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## ND40 (Jul 18, 2013)

The 5D3 is a terrific camera as is! My only real wish is that it were slightly smaller and lighter.


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## rpiotr01 (Jul 18, 2013)

I'm going to skip a cycle regardless, but I would hope to see some new sensor tech to keep up with what Sony is doing, as well as support for replacing focus screens.


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## seamonster (Jul 18, 2013)

A crop mode and *Drop the AA filter*, yo. 3 pages in and i'm surprised nobodys mentioned this.


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## jdramirez (Jul 18, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Two stops of ISO? I don't think that's theoretically possible. 1/2 stop of ISO is a big difference.
> The difference between the original 5D and the 5D MK III is less than 1 stop. The original 5D is the lowest scoring Canon FF sensor (as far as high ISO is concerned) that DXO has measured.
> 
> Even the 1D X is a hair less than 1 stop better than the original 5D.



I believe what I meant was if the mkiii is usable at iso 6400, then the mkiv would be usable at 25600.


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## Daniel Flather (Jul 18, 2013)

None of the items on the list would make me jump to the MK4 (2 stops of DR ain't gunna happen), but if Canon could somehow make their camera render yellows that are closer to the scene, that would be nice.


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## jasonsim (Jul 18, 2013)

Only thing that would make me consider a new 5D would be higher resolution (i.e. 36MP like D800) and faster drive (i.e. 8FPS+). Then I would not need to have a 1Dx or a new crop (i.e. 7D II or 70D).


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## Canon1 (Jul 18, 2013)

For me it is all about high ISO image quality. I don't need more megapixels... (fewer would be ok even) Unless there is a dramatic improvement in High ISO image quality I would probably hold off on the IV (if there is one). 

I still think the D3S is king when it comes to high ISO images. 1DX is really really close. This is the area I would like camera manufactures to continue to focus on.


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## AvTvM (Jul 18, 2013)

I will buy a 5d IV if it 
* has a sensor and IQ at least as good as nikon D800
* wifi + gps
* fully articulated display
* fully functional Auto-ISO
at a price not higher than D800


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## jdramirez (Jul 18, 2013)

everyone wants to sleep with their neighbors wife, but from an outside perspective, they both just lay there like a sack of potatoes unless you know what you are doing.


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## Canon1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Two stops of ISO? I don't think that's theoretically possible. 1/2 stop of ISO is a big difference.
> The difference between the original 5D and the 5D MK III is less than 1 stop. The original 5D is the lowest scoring Canon FF sensor (as far as high ISO is concerned) that DXO has measured.
> 
> Even the 1D X is a hair less than 1 stop better than the original 5D.



I would disagree with this. the 5DIII is one full stop better then the 5DII. (Shooting RAW) Testing has shown this as well as my real world experience. The 5DIII is at least 2 stops better then the 5DC.


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## cayenne (Jul 18, 2013)

bvukich said:


> kaihp said:
> 
> 
> > steliosk said:
> ...


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## Etienne (Jul 18, 2013)

5DIII is a great all-round camera, but of course I could be tempted to upgrade.
Smaller and lighter, improved DR and high ISO performance
Improved video performance with features like focus peaking, false color, really good AF.

To be honest, I'll probably add a crop body to my 5DIII, and/or C100 mark II if it's really good. Pretty happy with stills, but could use improvements in video area.


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## tron (Jul 18, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> Voted: 2 stops of improved and usable ISO performance (low light capabilities). Others are not important to me.


Me too


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## tron (Jul 18, 2013)

bvukich said:


> kaihp said:
> 
> 
> > steliosk said:
> ...


How about dual CF cards ?


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## mingyuansung (Jul 18, 2013)

I would like to see high ISO performance not just by software enhancement but physical sensor improvement. That will be hard probably. More highlight detail like 1DsII. Personally do not care too much about wifi or gps or video. How about a body can actually focus well when I use F1.2 without micro focus adjustment? Even with the current adjustment, I can adjust center point, then how about other focus point? I will use manual focus, yet the live view is slow. As a non professional user, I might cut down my upgrade practice in the future since Canon never give us all they have. Canon is so smart at making money by giving us little by little.


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## smithy (Jul 18, 2013)

None of those things by themselves would be enough to motivate me to upgrade... in fact, even all of them put together probably wouldn't be enough.


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## Skulker (Jul 18, 2013)

smithy said:


> None of those things by themselves would be enough to motivate me to upgrade... in fact, even all of them put together probably wouldn't be enough.



same for me really. The 5D3 is pretty good as far as I'm concerned. Improved IQ will always be welcome of course, and the improved ISO might be the most tempting. But I tend to use the 1Dx for that sort of thing.

Guess the 5D3 suits me pretty well and can do what I want. Maybe when I've had it a few years and feel I could make use of something better then I will look to upgrade.


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## RGF (Jul 18, 2013)

Total package is key

Improve AF to match 1Dx, dual CF card slots, GPS would be nice, 

Either high MP camera or better low light (min 2stops)


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## gbchriste (Jul 18, 2013)

None of that. I was superbly happy with the 5D2 except for the often flaky AF performance. That was my sole driving decision in going to the 5D3 and boy have I ever been happy with it. IQ and ISO performance are more than adequate for my tastes. I was always hesitant to take the 5D2 up to ISO 3200 but don't even blink when shooting 6400 on the 5D3. I love the menu interfaces and customizability of the buttons. Accuracy of AI Servo mode compared to 5D2 is in a completely different universe. I'll shoot the 5D3 until it dies.


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## CANONisOK (Jul 18, 2013)

Where is the radio button for "it doesn't matter, i'm not upgrading"?

The only true limitation in _my_ current setup is *me*, not my 5D3! I will happily skip whatever comes next and keep working on the true bottleneck.


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## steven kessel (Jul 18, 2013)

Geeze, I still haven't taken advantage of all of my 5Diii's capabilities. I'm running the camera at about a 20k photos per year rate, so I guess I'll have to do something in 6 or 7 years. Meanwhile, I'm good.


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## Pi (Jul 18, 2013)

tron said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Voted: 2 stops of improved and usable ISO performance (low light capabilities). Others are not important to me.
> ...



Make it 5. Or wait, 10. The problem is, there is no room for more than 1 stop, unless the Bayer design is replaced by something else. Then maybe 2.

My answer is: 2 more stop of DR, and I will bite. Until then, I will keep shooting with my 5D2. I did not even bother with the latest 6D/5D3 deals which would allow me to upgrade at no cost, maybe even with a profit. Not that the 6D/5D3 are not better, just not better enough _for me _ to bother (I do not shoot action).


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## luciolepri (Jul 18, 2013)

Lower red noise, improved DR and video performances (ML-style features, Vari angle LCD, Dual Pixel AF).
Global shutter would be great...
Since it should come out next year, I also wonder if new cameras will use the new H265 codec for video compression. It is claimed to be 5 times better than H264...

As far as stills are concerned, I'd really really like the evaluative metering to have a limit to the priority it can give to the zone where the AF sets the focus.


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## tnargs (Jul 19, 2013)

Mirrorless with 4Mp tilting EVF and better-than-III AF and near-silent shooting

Focus peaking

Same size as 6D


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## jdramirez (Jul 19, 2013)

tnargs said:


> Mirrorless with 4Mp tilting EVF and better-than-III AF and near-silent shooting
> 
> Focus peaking
> 
> Same size as 6D



Do you really think the mkiv is going to be a mirrorless camera? I'm not asking you what you want in your next camera... which is what many of yall are answering... but what in the MKIV will drive you to replace it over the mkiii...


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## Chosenbydestiny (Jul 19, 2013)

tnargs said:


> Mirrorless with 4Mp tilting EVF and better-than-III AF and near-silent shooting
> 
> Focus peaking
> 
> Same size as 6D



The 6D doesn't feel as good as the 5D3 does in my hands, a personal opinion but I think most would agree. The weight is just right for most of the popular L lenses as well.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 19, 2013)

Canon1 said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Two stops of ISO? I don't think that's theoretically possible. 1/2 stop of ISO is a big difference.
> ...


 
I'd be happy to see some reliable test results other than those of DXO. DXO has a pretty good and accurate test capability. What many of us do not like is their self assigned sensor ratings which reflects some unknown weightings that may or may not reflect our actual usage. The accuracy of their basic test results though is well accepted.

I've had the original 5D, two 5D MK II's and two 5D MK III's. and I'd love to be able to say my MK III's are full stop better than my MK II's. But that's only wishful thinking.

There are well done accurate measurements at DXO of the high ISO capability of various sensors, the range is much narrower than people think.

Here is their high ISO rating of CMOS Sensors RAW output since 2004. I did not include the CCD sensor from the original 1DS MK I, (ISO 954) because it was a different technology.
From the lowest to the highest CMOS FF sensor, the difference is about one stop. 

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Ratings/(type)/usecase_sports


EOS 5D - ISO 1368

EOS 1Ds MK II - ISO 1480

EOS 1DS MK III - ISO 1663

EOS 5D MK II - ISO 1815

EOS 5D MK III - ISO 2293

EOS 1D X - ISO 2786

EOS 6D - ISO 2340


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## privatebydesign (Jul 19, 2013)

One thing that has improved two stops over the life of these ff cameras is the software. 

I can use images shot two stops under exposed at max iso now, I couldn't a few years ago. I don't need a new camera, I just have to throw down $150 every year or two to get better and better software that enables ever higher iso performance.


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## EvillEmperor (Jul 19, 2013)

I shoot sports and I'm young and I wasn't able to afford the 1D X (that was never an option) and I had used my school's 7D for a while, and I knew the day the MK III was announced that I would get it one day. I got it a year later and I'm very happy. The only thing I would wish for would be higher FPS, maybe a little lighter, and if the SD slots would be faster. The FPS I find is too slow for baseball, because for a pitcher and batter I don't need continuous auto focus, and I find with 6 fps it's harder to make contact with the ball with the bat. It works great indoors, where the AF doesn't slow down at all, unlike the 7D while shooting.


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## jdramirez (Jul 19, 2013)

EvillEmperor said:


> I shoot sports and I'm young and I wasn't able to afford the 1D X (that was never an option) and I had used my school's 7D for a while, and I knew the day the MK III was announced that I would get it one day. I got it a year later and I'm very happy. The only thing I would wish for would be higher FPS, maybe a little lighter, and if the SD slots would be faster. The FPS I find is too slow for baseball, because for a pitcher and batter I don't need continuous auto focus, and I find with 6 fps it's harder to make contact with the ball with the bat. It works great indoors, where the AF doesn't slow down at all, unlike the 7D while shooting.



for baseball, tripod mount, focus manually or spot focus, and have a wired release and time it right. the more you watch, the more you practice, the easier it gets.


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## tpatana (Jul 19, 2013)

Give me most of these and I'll consider:

1: Two (or more) stop improvement on ISO
2: 720p240 (I'd be ok with 1080p240 too)
3: 10fps+ (and naturally plenty of buffer, ~20+ would be nice)
4: Dual-CF slots with separate data channels for writing (so it could flush buffer to both cards, roughly doubling the speed it can empty the buffer)
5: Integrated grip (=1D style body (I know Canon don't want this, they want 1D to look the king))

Not so important but nice to have:

6: GPS/Wifi
7: Dual-pixel AF -thingy
8: Wireless video link for GoogleGlass (or similar), so you could use live-view shooting while watching the scene through your video glasses. Nice for composing/shooting when you must hold the camera at a funny angle/position and can't use the OVF.
9:Couple GBs of internal memory for those moments when you MUST take the shot and you're either just filled your card or were exchanging the card for a fresh one. Such shouldn't happen to a professional, but it does happen to me.
10: 3G/4G modem and capability to upload directly to the service/system of your choice. (I take this back, no respectable photog would upload without editing, only for mag/paper if you must send it right away for the editor)

I'd pay some money if they add all those.


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## skfla (Jul 19, 2013)

tpatana said:


> Give me most of these and I'll consider:
> 
> 1: Two (or more) stop improvement on ISO
> 2: 720p240 (I'd be ok with 1080p240 too)
> ...



Dude, I'm curious-are you serious or is this american sarcasm/irony?


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## Maxaperture (Jul 19, 2013)

I moved on (ASAP) from a 7D to a 5DII, and then exchanged that for a 5DIII when I could afford it.
I love it, I feel really spoilt, and we mustn't forget how fast this incredible technology is moving.
However, I do have one disappointment, the focus points, if they could just spread them out 
63 points are superb to have, and as we all know, they're seriously effective. But it would be fantastic if they were spread over a larger percentage of the frame.


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## Canon1 (Jul 19, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon1 said:
> 
> 
> > Mt Spokane Photography said:
> ...



I as well have owned these three generations of cameras and my opinion is based solely on real world experience. I really don't hold much stock in tests that DXO or any other outfit performs. They are a nice comparison on paper but once you get out into the field that "testing" doesn't always hold true.

Perhaps I should elaborate on my statement. I believe that the 5DIII is a full stop better then the 5DII regarding noise for a couple of reasons. The type of noise between these two cameras is very different. The 5DII has colorful noise which in my opinion eats up detail and is not that easy to eliminate in post without even more detail loss. The 5DIII has strictly luminance noise (in the usable iSO range) which is much more easy to eliminate in post and the detail retention is much much better. Images shot at ISO 6400 with the 5DIII are often better out of camera then ISO 3200 of the 5DII. Then because the noise is easier to manage there is even a larger divergence. 

I find that I rarely apply NR on images shot at ISO 3200 or below. It almost looks to me as if the luminance noise of the 5DIII resembles sharpening artifacts. Either way I'm confident shooting at 1-2 stops higer in ISO with my 5DIII then my 5dII. Hopefully this explanation helps clarify where I am coming from with my comments. Happy shooting.


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## mrsfotografie (Jul 20, 2013)

mrsfotografie said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > I've decided to skip the 5DIII upgrade and wait to see if the 5D4 will be a big enough leap forward to even consider upgrading. Quite happy with the Mk2 right now.
> ...



On second thought maybe a 1D style body would be an upgrade ergonomically (haven't ever used one so can't really say). However for this reason a 1D series body is quite possibly the next step in my upgrade path although it really is a lot of money. I expect the 5D series to remain the more compact form factor it is now.


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## rpt (Jul 20, 2013)

I would not upgrade to a 5DIV. My second body will be a crop camera - possibly after 2 to 3 years. Replacement of the 5DIII will be much later. Even if the 5DIV had all those listed, I'd stay with my 5DIII.


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## danski0224 (Jul 20, 2013)

I still haven't figured out how to use all of the stuff in the 5DIII, so an upgrade wouldn't make much sense for me.

If there is an update for the 1DsIII, and if I could afford it, that would pique my interest.


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## jdramirez (Jul 20, 2013)

rpt said:


> I would not upgrade to a 5DIV. My second body will be a crop camera - possibly after 2 to 3 years. Replacement of the 5DIII will be much later. Even if the 5DIV had all those listed, I'd stay with my 5DIII.



I believe we are in the same boat. It's a nice boat though.


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## rpt (Jul 20, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > I would not upgrade to a 5DIV. My second body will be a crop camera - possibly after 2 to 3 years. Replacement of the 5DIII will be much later. Even if the 5DIV had all those listed, I'd stay with my 5DIII.
> ...


My perspective is that I got myself a professional camera (now some of these 1D folks may object but I am "standing my ground"  technically I am sitting but wth!) and I am going to need that time to use all the features including the ones that ML unlocks! Dual ISO! Wow! Hmmmmm back to the topic - yes, it will take me time to accumulate the moolah to get to the next FF.


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## Krob78 (Jul 20, 2013)

infared said:


> 1. Two stops improved noise performance.
> 2. Improved Dynamic Range
> 3. Two Compact Flash card slots that operate at equal rates
> 4. Expanded AF points
> ...





> 5. Higher Silent Frame Rate


Agree with everything here but the higher silent frame rate would be really great! I've thought that since day one!


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## Zv (Jul 20, 2013)

mrsfotografie said:


> mrsfotografie said:
> 
> 
> > Zv said:
> ...



I don't think the 5 series will ever have the built in battery grip design as the 5D line was created just to make FF more compact. Personally the 1D style body just seems too big and would just take up room in my bag!


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## AlanF (Jul 20, 2013)

I love the 5D III. It will serve me for many years. My next upgrade will be a 7D II to complement the 5D III if the sensor is improved.


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## tpatana (Jul 21, 2013)

skfla said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > Give me most of these and I'll consider:
> ...



I'm a Finnish guy, not American. And yes, I'm serious.

Tell me one of those that shouldn't be in 5D4? I know the #5 is out of reach for political reasons, but all others should be fine.


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## bdunbar79 (Jul 21, 2013)

tpatana said:


> skfla said:
> 
> 
> > tpatana said:
> ...



TWO stops improvement on ISO? What does that mean? At the high end? If that happens, then Canon will also have made flying cars and microwaves that serve you your dinner straight from the kitchen into the living room, where you are watching your $150 93-inch LED TV. None of those items you listed make any sense at all.


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## drmikeinpdx (Jul 21, 2013)

More dynamic range would be appreciated. And focus points farther out from the center of the frame. I'd like the ability to make the focus points light up whenever I wanted for low light photography.


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## noisejammer (Jul 21, 2013)

I use my 5D2 for landscape work and have a good selection of Zeiss glass. Autofocus is thus totally irrelevant in my manually focused, live view, 0.1-shot-per-minute world. Since the 5D3 didn't offer much in the way of meaningful improvement - particularly resolution, dynamic range and low ISO noise, I decided to sit on my hands.

The cameras I have are still way better than I am and I don't want another camera that does the same job. If Canon releases something with a combination of enhancements that are _significant to me_, I'll take it. If not, my 5D2 / 1D4 / Fuji X-E1 combination is more than sufficient.

If - given the rapid development of the mirrorless segment this is a very big "IF" - there's a successor to the 5D4 (for lack of a better name), it will doubtless be quite a different animal from the 5D2. It might even be interesting.


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## scottkinfw (Jul 21, 2013)

This will sound "out there" but what would really be hot would be a built in AFMA system that automatically calibrated each lens to each body (say like FoCal) with the touch of a button. That way, before you go on a shoot, you push a button, it autocalibrates exactly, no targets needed. I would also like to see some really great new sensor technology.

I do love my 5DIII


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## birtembuk (Jul 21, 2013)

5D3 is a great camera but I have the same remarks than some about DR, banding and low light focusing ability. I will watch closely the development of the "3D". If this hypothetical one leaves up to expectations and is in a 5D form factor, I'd upgrade and complement it with a 7D2 for high fps. Let's see what's coming up in the next 6/8 months.


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## Cannon Man (Jul 21, 2013)

The 5D line will always be worse than the 1D line. I will never downgrade.


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## alexanderferdinand (Jul 21, 2013)

Bigger buffer and/or a fast interface on both cards.


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## Zv (Jul 21, 2013)

scottkinfw said:


> This will sound "out there" but what would really be hot would be a built in AFMA system that automatically calibrated each lens to each body (say like FoCal) with the touch of a button. That way, before you go on a shoot, you push a button, it autocalibrates exactly, no targets needed. I would also like to see some really great new sensor technology.
> 
> I do love my 5DIII



I would love that feature! Might not be all that impossible. Maybe one day we will look back and laugh at ourselves for manually calibrating our lenses!


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## jdramirez (Jul 21, 2013)

Zv said:


> scottkinfw said:
> 
> 
> > This will sound "out there" but what would really be hot would be a built in AFMA system that automatically calibrated each lens to each body (say like FoCal) with the touch of a button. That way, before you go on a shoot, you push a button, it autocalibrates exactly, no targets needed. I would also like to see some really great new sensor technology.
> ...



I liked calibrating, but that would be a great upgrade. I also like the one suggestion of making it Google glass compatible. I really miss the articulating screen from my 60d.


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## rs (Jul 21, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > scottkinfw said:
> ...


AFMA is only needed due to slight tolerances between the relative position of the sensor and AF chip, and the alignment of the secondary mirror. If DSLR's used on-chip AF (which is possible even with a reflex mirror) there would be no requirement for AFMA.

We already have what appears to be a good on-chip PDAF system appearing in the 70D, so why couldn't the semi-translucent main mirror just let what AF light passes straight through it go direct to the main sensor instead of to a dedicated AF sensor down below via a secondary mirror?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 21, 2013)

rs said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > Zv said:
> ...


 
AF Speed. The on chip AF does speed up live AF to merely slow from painfully slow. Its still not comparable to conventional PD AF and worthless for fast moving targets. .

Hopefully, they can do something about it to speed it up, but on FF with even more pixels, it takes a more powerful processor just to stay the same.


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## rs (Jul 21, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> rs said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...


The X100S seems to do a reasonable job with its own PDAF sensor. If this 70D on chip PDAF really is slow even in photography mode (as far as I know its geared up for video by attempting to replicate smooth focus pulling), I can't see any reason why the second generation dual pixel AF sensor together with suitably powerful dedicated AF processing can't get this one cracked. The Samsung Galaxy S4 has a 1.9GHz quad core processor, so an upcoming top end mobile processor branded as DIGIC for AF could well do the trick.


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## pedro (Jul 21, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> TWO stops improvement on ISO? What does that mean? At the high end? If that happens, then Canon will also have made flying cars and microwaves that serve you your dinner straight from the kitchen into the living room, where you are watching your $150 93-inch LED TV. None of those items you listed make any sense at all.


Half a stop to 3/4 stop of IQ improvement at ISO 25.600 and 51.200 in RAW by 2015/16? Likely? I think, the main challenge here will be sensor fabrication tech, improved DIGICs and MPs. What I really would like to see is Canon staying at 22.3 MP in the 5Ds


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## And-Rew (Jul 21, 2013)

Hasn't the 5D3 only just really reached the masses in a reliable supply?
First few firmware updates completed and all that?

Oh well, i suppose that sort of thing had to start at some point after the first member on here actually owned one.

For me, not likely to be upgrading to anything any time soon - due to austerity provisions being in place (unemployed!) Also, quite enjoying Street Photography with my Fuji X-Pro 1, people don't seem to get as 'offended' with that camera as they do with the 5D2 and 24-105!

just remembered, I'd have to upgrade my computer as well, as i'm well entrenched into Adobe LR, and my computer won't go newer than V.4.

Well, time to go, blue hour is rapidly approaching and school hols are here - the teeny bike park down the marina is just begging to have a camera pointed at it


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## thelebaron (Jul 21, 2013)

for those clamoring for an integrated battery grip, why is a separate model not good enough?


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## alew3 (Jul 21, 2013)

Wouldn't make me upgrade. But the mkIII should have had USB3/Thunderbolt port for faster tethering / image downloads! Not sure why USB3 didn't make it.


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## jdramirez (Jul 21, 2013)

And-Rew said:


> Hasn't the 5D3 only just really reached the masses in a reliable supply?
> First few firmware updates completed and all that?
> 
> Oh well, i suppose that sort of thing had to start at some point after the first member on here actually owned one.


The point is that the mkiii is really really good and there are few, if any, complaints that it seems to suggest that the mkiv has to borderline incredible to really see value in upgrading. 

So what borderline incredible feature do you as a MKIII owner would cause you to spend $2500 on an upgrade. For many of us, the answer is that there are no upgrades that we can foresee that will push us into an upgrade.


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## jdramirez (Jul 21, 2013)

thelebaron said:


> for those clamoring for an integrated battery grip, why is a separate model not good enough?



I know... I don't see what the big deal is. Just buy the Canon grip if that is REALLY the only thing that is missing from the mkiii. I personally prefer the size of the body without the grip. It isn't like you CAN'T buy a grip...


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## rs (Jul 21, 2013)

alew3 said:


> Wouldn't make me upgrade. But the mkIII should have had USB3/Thunderbolt port for faster tethering / image downloads! Not sure why USB3 didn't make it.


USB 3 is rare to find on cameras because image downloads from current CF cards don't warrant anything more than USB 2.

Current CF cards top out at about 100 megabit/second. Thunderbolt 2 runs up 20 Gb/s. USB 3 runs up to 5 Gb/s. The antiquated USB 2 system runs at 10% of that speed, 480Mb/s - still about 5 times faster than current high end CF cards.


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## pedro (Jul 21, 2013)

62% in the poll voting for a two stop ISO improvement...

Maybe an improvement of 2 two stops DIVIDED in 4 ISO marks is realistic: half a stop of IQ improvement at ISO 6400, ISO 12800, ISO 25600, ISO 51200 each? All this gives us a quite usable ISO 102.400 ;-) Concerning high ISO performance, any 1Dx upgrade (announced by Q3 2015?, could make 5DIV a Q2 2016 announcement) will slightly set the stage for what might be expected high ISO IQ wise.


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## kaihp (Jul 22, 2013)

rs said:


> alew3 said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't make me upgrade. But the mkIII should have had USB3/Thunderbolt port for faster tethering / image downloads! Not sure why USB3 didn't make it.
> ...



Erh, no. The top-end CF cards (like the Lexar 1000x) tops out at just under 100MB/s, ie 800Mbit/s. Also, USB2 is horribly inefficient so 480Mbit/s is "guaranteed not to exceed numbers" not real-life numbers.
I haven't looked into the USB3 protocols, so I don't know if they reduced the overheads.


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## tpatana (Jul 22, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > skfla said:
> ...



?

I'd be happy to hear your reasoning why none of those make no sense, because for me they do.

As for ISO, let's say 5D4 ISO25k looks as clean as 5D3 ISO6400. That's bit stretch, I agree, but I thought the idea of this thread was to make a wish list. The other points are really nothing special, don't you think?

Let's check (I'd be really happy to hear your counter-arguments, instead of just saying "make no SENSE!!!" without any words to back up)

#2: 720p240 is not that much really, pure data-wise it's only double compared to 1080p60, which is standard in any camcorder nowadays. Doubling data-speed is nothing in electronics, happens roughly every 3 years. And I'd take 720p240 any day instead of 1080p60, if I could choose, but of course different people have different needs.

#3: 10fps+ This is trivial, 1DX already goes 12/14 fps, so nothing new here.

#4: Saving to two cards is nothing special either, but it needs own controllers for both channels to maximize the speed. Basically same idea than RAID-0 in PC world.

#5: Again trivial, but this one doesn't happen for Canon line-up reasons, they don't want 1D-style bodies for 5D-series.


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## tpatana (Jul 22, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> thelebaron said:
> 
> 
> > for those clamoring for an integrated battery grip, why is a separate model not good enough?
> ...



Good point actually. I just can't imagine using body without grip, so I'd be happy to get the bigger one to start with. Especially as the grip wastes lot of space with the connection and such, they could add wifi/gps/bt/LAN-port and such easily if they saved that much space.


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## pedro (Jul 22, 2013)

tpatana said:


> TWO stops improvement on ISO? What does that mean? At the high end? If that happens, then Canon will also have made flying cars and microwaves that serve you your dinner straight from the kitchen into the living room, where you are watching your $150 93-inch LED TV. None of those items you listed make any sense at all.
> 
> I'd be happy to hear your reasoning why none of those make no sense, because for me they do.
> 
> As for ISO, let's say 5D4 ISO25k looks as clean as 5D3 ISO6400. That's bit stretch, I agree, but I thought the idea of this thread was to make a wish list. The other points are really nothing special, don't you think?



That's why I'd go for a half of a stop improvement at each ISO setting up from 6.4k to 51k in RAW. An improvement like this would make a difference even at 102k.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Jul 23, 2013)

I'm gonna take a different track on this topic. And here you go. I will upgrade - and why - well because it looks as though the 5d series release cycle will match my own cycle for body replacement. So unless they take the 5d in a totally different direction I will most likely be looking to replace my mk3 right around when the mk4 is released. 

With that said, I really think all of you are jumping the gun on this topic. It's just way too soon to say yes or no. Little things like, who knows what Canon R&D is up too. Will it be digic 6 or digic 7 by then? The processor alone with no other improvements may be worth the upgrade. With that said though, it would more than likely have more improvements than that. 

Another funny thing here --- I did see many say - I won't get it unless it's sensor is as good as the d800 - isn't that setting the bar low? Won't nikon have a d900 by then? And, if canon is going big MP, won't there be a body there for those that want/need more than 22MP's. So should we even be comparing the 2? 

anyway you hack it though, I thin this topic is way premature. Let's see what the 7d2 has in store for us, and the big MP body. And even after that, watch what pops into the rebels and XXD series bodies. then we can revisit this next year, but even then may be too soon.


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## bdunbar79 (Jul 24, 2013)

tpatana said:


> bdunbar79 said:
> 
> 
> > tpatana said:
> ...



Reasoning? Because 1. We're talking about a 5D-series body, and 2. Do you even have any idea how difficult and probably unfeasible it would be to improve the 5D3's high ISO capabilities, by two stops? Certainly not soon.

It's a great wish list sure, but it sounds like, I want to the 1Dx features in a lower end cam body wish list. Maybe, who knows?


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## kcwizard72 (Jul 24, 2013)

What I would like is for Canon to stop making excuses for in body stabilization and include it with the Mark IV. If Canon supposedly has the best in house engineers in the business, then there is no reason, besides charging more for IS lenses, to have the best in body stabilization on the market. If Sony and others can do it, then Canon should be able to PERFECT it. It is about time for them to get back to the front of the pack instead of releasing things AFTER a competitor does.


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## tpatana (Jul 24, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> It's a great wish list sure, but it sounds like, I want to the 1Dx features in a lower end cam body wish list. Maybe, who knows?



I'm sure Canon hasn't stopped the 1D-series development either, so in ~3 years I assume there'll be 1DX Mark II, and that'll leave room for 5D4 to step up. Of course they don't want 5D-series to be too good, because it would reduce the 1D sales, but it can't be too lousy either or people from that target segment will jump for D900.

And if you compare 5D3 against older 1D models, maybe it'd land between 1D3 and 1D4, and actually 1D4 isn't that much better in most features.

So I don't see why 5D4 wouldn't be close to the current generation 1DX features. It is (at least for now) the next best thing after 1D series. Of course if they introduce e.g. 3D series to fill the gap better, that would mean 5D series must be less than that.

Unfortunately there's quite plenty politics too, with roadmap planning and such. Many things in consumer electronics are not done what's best for the consumers, but what's best for the company.


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## pedro (Jul 29, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > bdunbar79 said:
> ...



Well, I just wonder, how half a stop in RAW would look in the 5DIV if I got these results with my 5D3 last week. Insanely high ISOs 51.2k! If it improves half a stop I am happy, so as I hardly will be ugrading to the next body version I better wonder, how an additional half a stop in high ISOs might look by let's say 2018/19? 8) samples below shot at 51k : and some very low candle light...




Z96A5407bTLKlein by Peter Hauri, on Flickr




Z96A5407bTLBWKleindefCrop by Peter Hauri, on Flickr


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## alexanderferdinand (Jul 30, 2013)

Much bigger buffer, AF linked th spot- metering.
2 fast CF-slots would be fine too.


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## PhotoCat (Jul 30, 2013)

Absence of noise in shadow area at ISO100!

2 stops higher dynamic range from ISO100-ISO3200


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## tron (Jul 30, 2013)

alexanderferdinand said:


> Much bigger buffer, AF linked th spot- metering.
> 2 fast CF-slots would be fine too.


+1 These are trivial to implement in 5DIV since the technology exists now. I agree 100%


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## paolotaverna (Jul 30, 2013)

for me to move
1- A lot better dynamic range at least 2 or 3 stops (light years away from Nikon). And good performance(no noise!! at low isos

2- Continue improving focusing speed and accuracy (transferred from Nikon and canon as still lots to do!!!!)

3- Include native stuff like interval shooting, time lapse,...just the basic and simple things really!

Something that would never happen...sensor statbilzation?


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