# Upgrade advice: 6D or 5D2/3?



## nightsky87 (Nov 15, 2012)

Okay, so I know there's been a lot of topics like this recently but I believe that advice might differ from one person to another. So here goes...

First of all, I would like to emphasize that photography is strictly a *hobby* (although it does come in handy with my image processing research from time to time). My previous system was a 60D with the following lenses: EF-S 15-85, EF 50/1.4, Tamron 70-300 VC USD. The body and the 15-85 lens have already been sold to facilitate the move to FF.

For my type of photography, I enjoy doing landscapes, macro (although I use an extension tube for budget reasons), portraits (still subjects mostly... and my pet dogs!), and general travel photography.

So here's the thing. I understand that the 5D3 is by far superior in terms of AF functionality. With my 60D, I've had no problems dealing with focus though. Sure, I have a hard time tracking my running dogs and focusing spot on when there's fast motion but is that really just the difference? To give you an idea of what I've shot, here's some samples:

http://500px.com/nightsky87

Is there anything wrong with the focus on those?

On the other hand, the 6D has the WiFi functionality and low light focusing capability as well as UHS-I support for much less. So, so far I'm leaning towards that. It seems to have a similar AF as the 60D and even the controls! Before anyone says anything, I find the remote control/monitoring capability of the 60D (with a USB cable and my Nexus 7 tablet) great especially for my research work.

Finally, there's the good ol' 5D2. Is there really any reason to go for it instead of the 6D? Again I'll say this before anyone complains, I know there have been little reviews on the 6D but most seem to say that the AF system works fast so that might be good for me. So lets just work with what we know at least?

So basically, any other insights might help. Anyone?


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## wellfedCanuck (Nov 15, 2012)

I think you may be about 3 weeks early if asking for opinions on the 6D. I certainly can't provide you with expert advice, but I think at this point nobody else can, either.

(Nice photos, BTW.)


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## nightsky87 (Nov 15, 2012)

wellfedCanuck said:


> I think you may be about 3 weeks early if asking for opinions on the 6D. I certainly can't provide you with expert advice, but I think at this point nobody else can, either.
> 
> (Nice photos, BTW.)



Thanks! 

It's not really about the opinions on the camera I suppose. Maybe I should put it more concisely... Purely from a specification point of view, is there any benefit of getting the 61-pt AF vs 11-pt AF for my use? Plus other features into consideration of course.

Also, the 6D will be released early-mid December which if you include shipping (I'm not anywhere where pre-orders are available) would be just in time for the holidays. So I think I have to jump into the pre-order wagon if I'm to have the slightest chance of getting it on time.


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## wellfedCanuck (Nov 15, 2012)

nightsky87 said:


> wellfedCanuck said:
> 
> 
> > I think you may be about 3 weeks early if asking for opinions on the 6D. I certainly can't provide you with expert advice, but I think at this point nobody else can, either.
> ...



Despite some of the speculation here, I don't think anyone really knows how the AF on this camera is going to perform based on specs alone. Personally, I'm waiting for some in-depth reviews before I take the plunge.

*edit- sorry, I'm really not being helpful here. Probably someone else like Neuroanatomist could explain the technical advantage a 61pt system _might_ hold over an un-tested 11 point system.


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## nightsky87 (Nov 15, 2012)

wellfedCanuck said:


> Despite some of the speculation here, I don't think anyone really knows how the AF on this camera is going to perform based on specs alone. Personally, I'm waiting for some in-depth reviews before I take the plunge.
> 
> *edit- sorry, I'm really not being helpful here. Probably someone else like Neuroanatomist could explain the technical advantage a 61pt system _might_ hold over an un-tested 11 point system.



Yep, that's the same dilemma I have. No worries though, just looking for opinions.  And yeah, technical advantages would be great.


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## ScottyP (Nov 15, 2012)

Pending reviews it is all guessing, but it is unfortunate if you really must purchase in time for the holidays. 

First off, the 5D2 might be as good or better for less money; we don't know. 

Also, you would be buying a camera when it first comes out. It will definitely come down in price a few hundred bucks within 6 months of its release. Plus, you never know if it will have some bug, and need some high-tech aerospace duct tape retrofitted inside.


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## Borealis (Nov 15, 2012)

I had a chance to try out the 6D at a photo expo a little while ago. In terms of AF, I found the difference between the 5D3 and 6D is that the former is much more effective when tracking a subject, because of the higher density of points as well as the multiple cross-type sensors distributed throughout the array. Also, when using the outer points on the 6D, it hunted a fair bit before locking focus. Obviously this is all anecdotal evidence and should be taken with a grain of salt.

From what you describe about your typical subjects, I suspect that the benefits of the 5D3 would be a nice bonus but not critical.


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## Marsu42 (Nov 15, 2012)

ScottyP said:


> First off, the 5D2 might be as good or better for less money; we don't know.



... but the 6d will most probably have less banding than the 5d2, and Chuck Westfall predicted that the 6d has even better high iso than the 5d3. I think both is very probable, or Canon wouldn't get away with the 11pt af system.



nightsky87 said:


> For my type of photography, I enjoy doing landscapes, macro (although I use an extension tube for budget reasons), portraits (still subjects mostly... and my pet dogs!), and general travel photography.



I'd be very surprised if the 6d af wouldn't do for that, esp. if you are even somewhat ok with the mediocre tracking of the 60d. The 6d will have larger af points and better low-light capability, but for macro this probably means more inconsistent af than with the smaller points of the 5d3: for difficult spots like the small eye of an animal that is looking towards the camera, my 60d often doesn't hit the exact spot I want it to simply the af point is so large.


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## bchernicoff (Nov 15, 2012)

My upgrade path has been 7D, 5D Mk 2, and finally 5D Mk 3. My brother owns a 60D and I have used it a few times.

It really sounds like from what you describe the 6D would be the way to go based on your current needs. If you think the extra speed and AF performance of the Mk 3 could come in handy at some point, it might be worth it to wait for another $2900-ish deal to come along. The Mk 2 is a good camera, but you never really mentioned a cost concern, so I would say the newer feature set of the 6D would outweigh the cost savings. The smaller size of the 6D is probably nice too. Of course since you sold your 60D already, finding a Mk 2 would get you back in the game sooner.


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## rpt (Nov 15, 2012)

If cost is not a concern, 5D3 would be great. I got one and I love it. 6D is going to be new and will have its own teething problems. Having said all that from what you describe, any one of the three you mention would work for you.


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## daniemare (Nov 15, 2012)

I have the same considerations at hand as the release date of the 6D approaches.

This is how I aproached the dilema:

For me the 5DIII answer is simple (assuming that money IS a consideration). It is as such a performance orientated machine built from the input of many a professional, that the mere fact that you are "wondering" about this camera means it is probably more than what you need. In general, I think you will know that you need a 5DIII and thus not consider any other class.

5DII is old. I know a lot of people say that it is still a great camera, and it probably is, but I just can't look past that fact. It is difficult for me to believe that the 6D will not be better than the 5DII as an overall package even if you exclude the GPS and WiFi bells. Technology just does not work like that. And from what I understand from this forum, the AF cannot be worse than the 5DII. Yes, some people are upset about what is deemed to be only an "incremental" increae in ability, but then I come from a 500D and I am sure it will be huge. (One advantage of not upgrading every time)

So I am satisfied with my conclusion > 6D. For me it only lacks a built in flash which I will solve with a 270EXII when the 430EXII is to big.


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## papa-razzi (Nov 15, 2012)

Here is your problem - you really don't know what you are buying with a 6D if you preorder right now - and you sold your camera so you will need something soon.

6D looks good on paper and I agree with other posters that it is probably the best camera for your needs. BUT, since no one has tested the camera in depth it could also have some show-stopper issues for you. You can't know at this point. Plus if you pre-order you will pay top dollar for the camera. And the price will surely come down over time.

Here is what I suggest. Buy a 5DII - maybe even a used one - and keep it for 6 months. There are screaming deals on this camera right now. The prices on this shouldn't drop drastically over the next 6 months or so. After 6 months you can sell it for likely close to what you paid for it. Consider any difference the price of a 6 month rental. Now you will be in the position to make an informed decision, and you will likely be getting the 6D or 5DIII for a lower price. You might even like the 5DII and decide to keep it longer.

My 2 cents


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## iaind (Nov 15, 2012)

A grey import 5d3 can be had in the UK for less than £200 more than 6D list. 

Having tried both at an open day I would go for 5D3


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## Marsu42 (Nov 15, 2012)

iaind said:


> A grey import 5d3 can be had in the UK for less than £200 more than 6D list.



That's hardly a fair comparison, but I guess a frequent one if someone wants to justify buying the more expensive product :->

The 6d will be down $100+ in no time when backorders of early adopters are fulfilled, that's why it is $2099, $1995 sounds much more affordable. And there will be grey imports of the 6d, too.


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## dswatson83 (Nov 15, 2012)

Given that none of us have the 6D, it's a bit of a stretch to figure which you should own. There are some professional features and video features that the 5D mark III has that the 6D does not. If you are more of a casual, hobby shooter which it looks like you are, you will not miss most of those. However, I do think the 6D is very limited for what it offers unless you really want wifi & gps. If not, I might even recommend the Nikon D600. It did a little better for me for landscape dynamic range. No one can pry my 5D mark III from my hands but I do think the D600 beats the 6D in that segment. I did a review between the 5Dmark III and D600:

Nikon D600 vs Canon 5D Mark III Fight!

You will need mostly new lenses anyway so switching systems isn't a problem. Like I said, I love the 5D mark III over anything Nikon offers, but I am really disappointed in the 6D specs and it probably won't beat the 5D mark III in quality so I doubt we will be blown away. Even the D600 beat the 5D3 in dynamic range which you need for landscapes. Nikon lets you push the shadows 3-4 stops with hardly any noise allowing HDR levels of dynamic range without shooting HDR. I wish my 5D3 allowed that. But I don't shoot landscapes so I prefer the 5D3.

Sorry for suggesting a Nikon on Canonrumers...but I am a Canon shooter and prefer canon, i'm just not a 6D fan yet. No dual cards, only 9af points, 1/180 sync speeds...stuff like that just makes me cringe. My 5D3 rocks though.


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## Marsu42 (Nov 15, 2012)

dswatson83 said:


> There are some professional features and video features that the 5D mark III has that the 6D does not.



Since no one has reviewed the 6d with the final firmware and the "hands on" are very amateurish, it's hard to say what firmware features and customizations Canon has cut. The final decision for people w/o unlimited money will be between 5d3 and a 6d *plus* a $1000 (or $1000 better) lens. So: 5d3+Tamron 24-70 or 6d+Canon 24-70ii?



dswatson83 said:


> Sorry for suggesting a Nikon on Canonrumers...but I am a Canon shooter and prefer canon, i'm just not a 6D fan yet. No dual cards, only 9af points, 1/180 sync speeds...stuff like that just makes me cringe. My 5D3 rocks though.



The d600 is very competitive, and Nikon will probably have the edge on the 6d. But your comparison is flawed: the 6d has *11* af points (but only 1 good one, that's the problem), and 90% of users will have a very hard time to tell 1/180 6d from 1/200 x-sync 5d3 - both is rather mediocre and also below the 60d/7d.


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## dunkers (Nov 15, 2012)

For your purposes and needs, I would say either get the 5d2 or 6D. Think of it this way. If you get a 5D2 or 6D, you an use the money you saved towards some nice glass. You said you have the EF-S 15-85, EF 50/1.4, and Tamron 70-300 VC USD. 

You're no longer going to be able to use that 15-85, so you may need a standard zoom and maybe an L lens or two. You can used that saved glass to get the new 24-70 f/4L IS, which has that special macro mode on the tele end. That is a good solution to your standard zoom/macro needs. The 50 can be used for your portraits.



That aside...

The 5d3 does have more AF points, but you only really need those for sports or BIF. Although I got the 5D3 before the 6D was announced, I still wouldn't change my decision.

I shoot a lot of sports/action so I need the 61-AF system and the 6fps. However, for portraits/landscapes you don't really need those extra points or the extra burst. I used the 60D and was frustrated by its tracking capabilities.

Build-wise, the 6D is by no means a pushover. It has a magensium body with a polycarb top. Coming from a 60D, it would be an upgrade for you either way. 

Image-wise, the 6D is not going to be a slouch either. It may even be possible that the 6D has slightly better noise performance because it has less pixels crammed into it. Personally, I'm really interested in how the extra-sensitive center AF point performs. If it performs as its touted to be, that will be huge for lowlight shots.


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## bycostello (Nov 16, 2012)

you say travel photography so i'd suggest the 6d as it has gps


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## nightsky87 (Nov 16, 2012)

Great insights everyone! Thanks!

To answer some, the need for a new system isn't all that urgent. The 60D and 15-85 are technically sold but they're still staying for a few more months - its complicated. Then again, I could never resist preordering (early adopter tendencies).

There seem to be quite a lot of concern about the 6D having no reviews so barring IQ from the equation, I'm more concerned about the limitation in AF points (11 vs 61). Great to hear that for my needs 11 might be enough though. 

I forgot to mention that budget is quite limited at this point and stretching for a 5D3 would be difficult (not impossible). The move to a 5D3 would mean that I wouldn't be able to get any new lenses anytime soon. I was thinking of the 6D+Tamron 24-70 (yes I know, not as sharp as the canon 24-70 mk II) and that would stretch budget to the limit. Note again that I do *NOT* do this in any professional capacity and I don't really earn off it.

Also, about the WiFi and GPS features of the 6D, I don't really need the GPS but having WiFi seems like a good thing for me in the sense of getting remote control capabilities.

So as of now, I guess the decision is still tilting towards the 6D.  Unless someone brings up some dealbreaker. :


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## Marsu42 (Nov 16, 2012)

nightsky87 said:


> I'm more concerned about the limitation in AF points (11 vs 61). Great to hear that for my needs 11 might be enough though.



Note that the 61pt af is only for the most expensive lenses - lesser glass uses less af points, and the outer points degrade to non-cross. Grab the pdf 5d3 manual and read which class your lenses are in so you aren't disappointed. The 11pt 6d af (or all-cros 9pt af on 60d or 19pt on the 7d) work with all lenses alike.



nightsky87 said:


> I forgot to mention that budget is quite limited at this point and stretching for a 5D3 would be difficult (not impossible). The move to a 5D3 would mean that I wouldn't be able to get any new lenses anytime soon.



In that case: Just don't unless someone offers you a 5d3 for <$2300. Just imagine buying the 6d (maybe not for the early adopters price, but <$2000) and still having money left for lenses, tripods (and good heads), a large & fast uhs1 sd-card, filters (nd, polarizer), repairs for all that stuff - if that perspective lifts a weight then your decision should be easy. It's not like no one will talk to you anymore if you haven't the latest and greatest camera body, in max. 2-3 years the 5d3 will be ancient because Canon will deliver a much more competitive sensor.


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## JohanCruyff (Nov 16, 2012)

nightsky87 said:


> For my type of photography, I enjoy doing landscapes, macro (although I use an extension tube for budget reasons), portraits (still subjects mostly... and my pet dogs!), and general travel photography.
> http://500px.com/nightsky87


For macro photography, keep in mind that the depth of field reduces when you increase the sensor's size, coeteris paribus. 
You can boost ISO and use a narrow aperture because (coeteris paribus) FF sensors have less diffractions problems than APS-C ones, though.


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## sanj (Nov 16, 2012)

I saw your pictures and with it sort of understand your needs. 5d2 would be a superb upgrade for you. Regards.


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## M.ST (Nov 16, 2012)

Get the 5D Mark II with the new EF 24-70 II


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## Marsu42 (Nov 16, 2012)

M.ST said:


> Get the 5D Mark II with the new EF 24-70 II



Why would you recommend the 5d2 over the 6d? While 5d2 is rather inexpensive atm, the op stats that the does "general travel photography" and likes the wifi feature - and the sensor of the 6d will probably better then the 5d2, same goes for the af system.


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## nightsky87 (Nov 17, 2012)

All those 5D3 deals are taunting me... 

But... I think I'll stick to the 6D+Tamron 24-70 with the current budget. The 5D2 sounds like a good system but with the few hundred bucks to the 6D, I do think I can get more out of the built-in WiFi, GPS, low-light AF, high ISO performance (that comes with the newer sensor and DIGIC core), etc. It's not like I do photography to get any sort of income so a next upgrade will take years and keeping the older 5D2 doesn't seem like a good idea.



Marsu42 said:


> Note that the 61pt af is only for the most expensive lenses - lesser glass uses less af points, and the outer points degrade to non-cross. Grab the pdf 5d3 manual and read which class your lenses are in so you aren't disappointed. The 11pt 6d af (or all-cros 9pt af on 60d or 19pt on the 7d) work with all lenses alike.



I checked the manual and my lenses seem to work with the 61-pt focusing system but with fewer cross-type. Still a superior system to the 6D in that sense.

In the end, I think my decision is driven primarily by needs and budget constraints. I need a full-frame system but with my photography, as many have pointed out, AF isn't as critical. The 61-pt focus is a good bonus if I go 5D3 though. But in that case, I won't be able to afford any lenses in the near future. And what use is a good body with no good lenses right?

So with all that, I'll probably jump into the pre-order sometime soon. Hopefully there won't be any delays with the release! Thanks to everyone for their input! ;D

(There's no chance of the 5D3 crawling towards 6D prices anytime soon right? )


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## Marsu42 (Nov 17, 2012)

nightsky87 said:


> (There's no chance of the 5D3 crawling towards 6D prices anytime soon right? )



Murphy's Law: If you buy the 6d then the 5d3 will drop in price rapidly, if you wait and save the 5d3 will stay @$3000 :-> 

Ok, really, I think Canon will make sure there will remain a healthy difference no matter what, the only thing that is certain that the 6d will loose the early adopters premium like all bleeding edge tech products.


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## amazin (Nov 18, 2012)

According to what you describe, a 5D mk2 would be well suited for you. with the arrival of the 6D, you can find it at a great deal.


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