# 5DIV v 5DV v 5D-M



## Dreamer (Dec 17, 2017)

Hi Guys

Geniune question from a mere enthusiast. Recently sold my 5D3 (great camera) with a view to upgrading - as phase detect and touchscreen functionality are things I really think are useful.

My dilemma, or question, to sound less dramatic is:

I've just heard that the reality of a mirrorless camera from Canon is now very possible in the new year (2018). Does everyone think that, on balance of probabilities, this will be up to 5D3/4 quality (for ease i'll just call this 5D-M)??? I ask as I have a Panasonic G85 that I really love and really take every time I travel and just love it's functionality. I'm too lazy to lug my DLSR stuff around. 

If Canon go FF, do you think it will be with EF backwards compatibility, or will they continue to develop the M range of lenses to deal with FF???

Does anyone think that the 5D4 will be upgraded in the same year - or rather the following year - given the potential to release 5D-M in 2018. In particular, raising the bar on their touchscreen to say OLED and perhaps articulation rather than fixed????

I know there will always be technological advancements and trying to keep up is fraught with problems - particularly to the hip pocket. I guess my funds are limited, FF is my preference, but with millenial technology (read as cool stuff that is actually useful rather than making anybody a better photographer). I guess i can wait a year and continue to use my M4T G85 which is a great little product.

Thanks for your time and all thoughts are appreciated


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## slclick (Dec 17, 2017)

This is one of those posts where you will get the admonishments of how you can't shoot with a rumor, how no one really knows and it's all wild stabs in the dark, whether the flange will allow this or that, whether or not it will be based upon EF or another mount. On and on. If you have to have the latest and greatest, you will do so no matter what anyone says, right? But the 5D4 is a remarkable tool and you cannot go wrong with it even if a successor comes out. I personally don't see another 5D body until 2019. As for the M series, it's anyone's guess...not enough good info out there. Stay tuned...


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## Dreamer (Dec 17, 2017)

Thanks slckick - yeah I did wrestle with whether to post or not. It's why I tried to emphasise, for those that also really care, what their best estimate of the balance of probabilities was.

I don't need the latest and greatest - but I think phase detect and a great reticulated rear OLED screen on say, a 5D4 or better sensor, will definitely see me through to the next 5+ years. Really enjoyed my 5D3 - its a great camera, and by all reports, the 5D4 is similar.

I agree with you around the 5D4 - I would think it would be 2019-2020, judging by the 5D3 update that 5 yrs for a body seems to be the par now.

Thanks again for your thoughts


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## sanj (Dec 17, 2017)

No one knows. Everyone wants to know.

I suspect it is just a matter of time. Till then you want to be without a camera?

Right now your choice is only 5d4


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## slclick (Dec 17, 2017)

Dreamer said:


> Thanks slckick - yeah I did wrestle with whether to post or not. It's why I tried to emphasise, for those that also really care, what their best estimate of the balance of probabilities was.
> 
> I don't need the latest and greatest - but I think phase detect and a great reticulated rear OLED screen on say, a 5D4 or better sensor, will definitely see me through to the next 5+ years. Really enjoyed my 5D3 - its a great camera, and by all reports, the 5D4 is similar.
> 
> ...



As for me, I'll be milking my 5D3 for all it's worth. It's more camera than I will ever need or want and all I ever have to do to humble my G.A.S. is to look at all the amazing images from yesteryear shot with much less DR and other whiz bang features than what I have which I will never be able to duplicate.


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## Dreamer (Dec 17, 2017)

Thanks Sanj - I guess I can be without a FF for a short time. Glass lasts 3 times longer than bodies from a tech perspective (rough not scientific number). I have another camera that I find more than useful in the interim - but it does lack some magic in the underlying picture that seems to come with the combo of FF and glass (perhaps its psycho sematic, but it doesn't matter if I find it to be real)

Thanks again also Slclick - you do make a great point its not gear that makes the photo. I totally agree too - although suffer from mild GAS myself. It's more the functionality that assists, rather than underpins, the creation of the shot.

Appreciate both your perspectives


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## Don Haines (Dec 17, 2017)

At some point there will be a Canon FF mirrorless. When, is everyone's guess.

What it will not be, is compatible with the M series of lenses..... If they designed for them, the camera would vignette like crazy, and effectively make it useless to have a FF sensor in it.... The lenses will either be EF, or they will have to invent a new mount.

A new mount, with a shorter flange distance, would make wide angle lenses a bit smaller, but with just about everything else the difference would be minimal. They could also develope a tiny body (like Sony) to use, but the problem with that is ergonomics. You need the real estate for the grip and the controls.... it would suffer ergonomicaly if made smaller than the 6D.

Also, you have to remember that for those people to which small size is paramount, no FF mirrorless is ever going to be able to compete with the M series of cameras and lenses. I can see a thriving market for timy mirrorless (M series) and a 5D sized FF mirrorless with EF lenses, but is there really room for something in the middle? Sort of like APS-H sensors, despite a few very vocal affictionados, there may not be enough of a market to make it financially viable.

In the meantime, if you can get along with what you have, fine..... but if you are waiting for something new and revolutionary, remember that Canon is very conservative and you may be waiting several years. I am also waiting for a FF mirrorless from Canon, and got a 6D2 to hold me through the wait. I suspect that I will be shooting with it for several more years.

Now we wait.


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## Dreamer (Dec 17, 2017)

Don Haines said:


> _At some point there will be a Canon FF mirrorless. When, is everyone's guess.
> 
> __What it will not be, is compatible with the M series of lenses..... If they designed for them, the camera would vignette like crazy, and effectively make it useless to have a FF sensor in it.... The lenses will either be EF, or they will have to invent a new mount.
> _
> ...


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## Talys (Dec 17, 2017)

You could always get a 6DII. There are some insanely good deals, it's by most accounts superior to the 5D3 on the image department, with most of the new Canon technology/convenience stuff, and also, with the articulating screen that you desire.

If you buy the 5D successor in the future, 6DII is still a useful backup or second body.

Personally, I'm very happy with mine!


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## Dreamer (Dec 17, 2017)

_


Talys said:



You could always get a 6DII. There are some insanely good deals, it's by most accounts superior to the 5D3 on the image department, with most of the new Canon technology/convenience stuff, and also, with the articulating screen that you desire.

If you buy the 5D successor in the future, 6DII is still a useful backup or second body.

Personally, I'm very happy with mine!

Click to expand...

_
Thanks Talys - I did consider it - and I have no doubt its a great camera, but when i looked at the comparisons coldnt swing it. Cant justify being in the two camera FF realm at the minute either

ps. BUT what i should also say, if the new Canon 5D-M could bring some of the 6D11 benefits with the 5D4 sensor or better, then i'm pretty much sold


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## unfocused (Dec 17, 2017)

Trying to answer your specific questions



Dreamer said:


> ...I've just heard that the reality of a mirrorless camera from Canon is now very possible in the new year (2018). Does everyone think that, on balance of probabilities, this will be up to 5D3/4 quality (for ease i'll just call this 5D-M)??? ...



Possible does not mean definite or even probable. Only Canon knows if and when they might offer a full frame mirrorless camera. If Canon does offer a mirrorless camera, it will be of high quality because only the lucrative enthusiast market cares.



Dreamer said:


> If Canon go FF, do you think it will be with EF backwards compatibility, or will they continue to develop the M range of lenses to deal with FF???



Opinions vary on this. The last rumor (and it is only a rumor) is that Canon may offer two versions, one in traditional EF mount and one that is something else. I personally believe that Canon has too much invested in the EF mount not to make a full frame mirrorless in that mount.



Dreamer said:


> Does anyone think that the 5D4 will be upgraded in the same year - or rather the following year - given the potential to release 5D-M in 2018. In particular, raising the bar on their touchscreen to say OLED and perhaps articulation rather than fixed????



It is highly unlikely that we will see a 5DV before 2020.


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## [email protected] (Dec 17, 2017)

Remember that the current the current deals on the 6D2 are so crazy good, that you'll likely MAKE money selling it used six months from now. You can get the $2k camera for about $1.3k with grip, battery, etc. You could consider it a free rental. If something much better comes out, selling it for $1.5k is quite likely, as I bet Canon bring the price back up into the neighborhood of $100 or $200 below the introduction price. 

There's very little downside to purchasing the 6D2 right now.


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## hendrik-sg (Dec 17, 2017)

I would be careful predicting that the price for a actual model will go up significantly. this never happened as far as i know. And if they are sold now for huge discounts in big numbers, there will be many used items abailable after some time.

Maybe the cameras are not selling as expected, maybe they do all to fight against decreasing market, both are no indications that the prise will go up very soon and very much.

It's electronics and consumer goods in combination, both not known for increasing prices during product cycle. Buy it if you have use for it and can afford some loss....


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## Dreamer (Dec 17, 2017)

Thanks Unfocussed - yep pretty much agree. This speculation is all on the balance of probabilities based on available knowledge to date and competitor movements.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## rjbray01 (Dec 17, 2017)

Hi

for what its worth - and I don't think my opinions are in the majority - I would very strongly recommend you try using a mirrorless camera if you haven't already.

I have a 5Div and an M5. Gosh what a difference.

Its not the picture quality which concerns me - its the viewfinder quality.

When using the 5Div obviously you are just looking through lenses and a mirror - the picture quality in the viewfinder is fantastic ... and when you pan the lens the picture moves just like when you turn your head.

With a mirrorless camera - or at least with the M5 - the picture quality is poor and the lag when moving the camera is terrible. Also the recovery time after you take a picture is terrible - and if you want to chimp its even worse.

My view - and I get the impression that I'm perhaps in a small minority these days - is that mirrorless cameras have got a quite a way to go before the viewfinders can match their optical counterparts.

Canon have filed patents for some sort of hybrid arrangement - if that comes out then we might have the best of both worlds - but I'm not technical enought to understand what's really going on there.

I hope that's of some help - if not then apologies.


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## archiea (Dec 18, 2017)

I just watched some Jaron Lanier videos to get onto the Mirrorless rant mode.. XD

I own the 5Dmiii and the various M cameras (Original M, M3, M5). Prior to that was the 20D, 30D, 7Dmark1. I also bought my friend's Fuji X-t2 body to use the Leica M mount rangefinder lenses that I use on the canon M cameras since beside the 22mm and special purpose 11-22mm, there are no wide aperture canon M lenses. I get gorgeous photos with that combo... canon folks who want a low cost/high IQ system should look into doing that.

*Obstacles with mirrorless:*
1) Short flange for full frame necessitating a new lens mount and tech.
2) Battery drainage not just from EVF and LCD, but also from newer require features like Optical stabilization, Sensor based stabilization, wireless antenna and GPS tagging. 
3) Size expectation that they should be small, which leads to:
4) Heat dissipation from the battery heavy features mentioned above.
5) speed because of the processor heavy features (Evf, focus peaking, overlays, etc)
6) Speed because of the evf blackout for continuous shooting. 
7) 4K video for the 4K-holics

DLSR's for 10 years have enjoyed having conquered much of the above, with the 5Div adding geotagging and wireless with some battery life. We are used to seeing fast playback and no delay between features. 

It took sony up until the A7r-3 to conquer most of the above and almost bankrupting themselves. 

It takes a while to reboot a technology to offer the same efficiencies that the prior tech took decades to develop. 

Remember, it wasn't until OLED screens that we FINALLY get the black levels we used to get from Fine CRT-based displays like sony CRT XBRs. It was a reboot of the tech. 

*Canon's current Mirrorless: i.e m5*
The main issue I have with he Canon mirrorless tech is that they are crippled consumer products, not professional they way Fuji puts their best tech forward and gets even better with firmware updates. 
Canon Mirrorless can't chew gum and walk at the same time. While the card with writing, you can't zoom in the viewfinder to focus next shot. The M3 overheats in extreme use (Not extreme weather) and the electronic level freeze.
Zooming to Manual Focus takes a beat. Overall it feels like Powershot parts for the corporate parts bin were relabeled as EOS.

I believe for the canon mirrorless to work, it would have to be as disruptive as the move from FD to EF lenses. For AF Canon had to re-boot its lens format. For the issues of Flange distance and the sensor color cast and smearing from wide angle lenses along the edges, canon will have to do the same. Leica solved this by not having a having a filter stack in front of their sensor AND by incorporation micro lenses to help steer the light rays to a more perpendicular angle when they hit the sensor. Sony, instead, added the flange distance to almost EVERY ONE OF THEIR LENSES. Sony didn;t solve the problem, but they came out first! Betamax and VHS all over again!

*Fuji averted this by*
1) going APS-C to no compete with expensive full frame
2) Leapfrogged Fullframe to the nice market of Medium Format, using their aps-c cameras as test beds for what the public ants and what sells. 
3) Modeling their cameras for photographs: the xpro2 and the x-t2 are very well renowned by their photographers
4) They make the lenses. 

*So for canon to do it right:*
1) reboot EF lenses as maybe the EF-mF to make a proper mirrorless format from the ground up. 
2) Offer a converter similar to the ef -> ef-m to help folks leverage their current lenses on a new tech like the mirrorless.
3) Don't goof on "Consumer Features" like wireless, GPS tagging, focus peaking, Vectoprscopes, and the M5's drag-to-focus. Include them all. "We have a cinema line.." just add sony buyers. Use those features as gateway drugs to the Cinema line, not punishment. That what you did with your newest Live-view AF system. 
4) That being said, keep the tilting screen to just up and down, if at all, its more robust. The swing out screens are looking to be busted. It invites damage. Curious how the fuji and sony screens are doing. that being said, I LOVE the portrait tilt of the 
5) Sony's ARiii's dual USB for tethering and power is genius.... Listen to your customers, they know better than you what they want. 
6) DSLR development should happen in conjunction to their mirrorless development so that both platforms have plenty of overlap. this would help folks migrate over years because its like switching platforms...

Thats my 2 cents, Thx for reading....


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## Dreamer (Dec 18, 2017)

Wow! Thanks Rjbray and archiea.

Yes i have a Panasonic G85 - and i love it. It's the reason i really want Canon's FF mirrorless to be a real step up. I have no idea what their current mirrorless products offer - i hear good and bad (but that is the case with most camera's these days.) I went to Panny for a travel camera as the reviews were brilliant and Canon couldnt match the product offering at the time. I have no regrets. I love the mirrorless M4T set up and functionality. If the M5 was available at the time of my G85 with similar functionality - i would have bought it too. But IBIS, OLED EVF, large lens selection, 4K video et cetera. It was hard to pass up

I have a few(not as much as most here) EF lenses and want to stick with the Canon eco system. I, personally, find no merit in switching away from Canon. The make an excellent product - full stop.

Thanks for both your views - much appreciated


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2017)

Dreamer said:


> If Canon go FF, do you think it will be with EF backwards compatibility, or will they continue to develop the M range of lenses to deal with FF???



Canon's FF mirrorless ILC system will 100% allow EF lens use at day one. The only question is whether this will be enabled with a *native EF mount onboard* or a *thinner mount + adaptor* to work. 

Canon will not shoot itself in the foot with a standalone super thin FF mirrorless platform that does not have an EF adaptor. People would riot outside of Canon corporate if they pulled a stunt like that.

- A


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2017)

As far as timing of future bodies goes, I'll be *super* brave : and say a FF mirrorless ILC system will be offered before a 5D5, which one does not think we'd see until the 2020-2021 neighborhood.

_...but there's zero guarantee the first FF ILC body from Canon will have a 5D-level feature set._ If the EOS M platform is any indication, they very well may go from bottom to top. They could try to scoop up enthusiasts with a 6D-level mirrorless body before they try to court professionals with a 5D-level or 1DX-level mirrorless body.

- A


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## BillB (Dec 18, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> As far as timing of future bodies goes, I'll be *super* brave : and say a FF mirrorless ILC system will be offered before a 5D5, which one does not think we'd see until the 2020-2021 neighborhood.
> 
> _...but there's zero guarantee the first FF ILC body from Canon will have a 5D-level feature set._ If the EOS M platform is any indication, they very well may go from bottom to top. They could try to scoop up enthusiasts with a 6D-level mirrorless body before they try to court professionals with a 5D-level or 1DX-level mirrorless body.
> 
> - A



Quite a while ago, there was a rumor (or some Canon official said) that a new sensor was being developed for FF mirrorless. No guarantees, but a new sensor seems likely to be highendish.


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2017)

BillB said:


> Quite a while ago, there was a rumor (or some Canon official said) that a new sensor was being developed for FF mirrorless. No guarantees, but a new sensor seems likely to be highendish.



The 6D2 had a new sensor as well. :

But even if it was a groundbreaking new sensor, what if that nice sensor is stuck in a body with... 


Only 5 fps
Some features locked out unless you get native thin-mount lenses
A tiny viewfinder (or no integral VF at all, remember the first three EOS M models didn't have one!)
A tiny grip ill-suited for large EF glass or a large battery
Fairly inexpensive plastic body
No 4K

I'm obviously frankensteining something unattractive above, but Canon might walk before it runs in this space and put out something with relatively limited appeal just to scoop up early adopters and work out the kinks before something slick/polished is ever brought forward.

- A


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## brad-man (Dec 18, 2017)

ahsanford said:


> As far as timing of future bodies goes, I'll be *super* brave : and say a FF mirrorless ILC system will be offered before a 5D5, which one does not think we'd see until the 2020-2021 neighborhood.
> 
> _...but there's zero guarantee the first FF ILC body from Canon will have a 5D-level feature set._ * If the EOS M platform is any indication*, they very well may go from bottom to top. They could try to scoop up enthusiasts with a 6D-level mirrorless body before they try to court professionals with a 5D-level or 1DX-level mirrorless body.
> 
> - A



Then it will have a new mount and a frustratingly limited selection of slow zooms


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## Dreamer (Dec 18, 2017)

Thanks Ahsanford and others. Given i've always said this is based on the balance of probabilities, and given Canon have already taken a slow and steady approach to the development of their FF range - i would think the ability to learn from Sony and ensure it remains on top of the heap, knowing Nikon is also feverishly developing their own first FF camera, would surely mean this would be for the EF mount. 

I would also agree it's whether it would be of 5D quality that is the unknown factor here - but why wouldnt it be? Surely Sony has now reached 1D quality with its A9 in terms of speed et cetera.

I'm not sure what being late to the party would achieve for Canon at the FF mirrorless level if it's not at the level people are all now expecting. I get they fear it could mean a cannibilisation of their 5D market - but surely that wouldnt be the case, as they are market leaders. Surely all it means is that those thinking of switching to another system now remain and it gives Canon opportunity to merely further develop the mirrorless technology over a period of time?


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## ahsanford (Dec 18, 2017)

brad-man said:


> Then it will have a new mount and a frustratingly limited selection of slow zooms with their native mirrorless mount lens offerings, but a houseload of awesome professional lenses will work from day one.



Fixed that for you. 

Unlike with EOS M, which lacks high quality EF-S glass to adapt, any Canon mirrorless FF offering will have world class glass from day one.

Unless you want *world class and native mount* from day one, which (a) isn't happening and (b) won't be that small -- only a handful of lenses will lead to smaller aggregate footprint (think pancakes, 35 f/2, 50 1.8, etc.) will you actually save much aggregate space for that sexy thin mount -- _if we even get that thin mount._

- A


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