# Canon EOS R5 pricing is still unknown, don’t believe the reports [CR0]



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 15, 2020)

> Yesterday a price for the upcoming Canon EOS R5 was “leaked” by an Australian retailer. The price listed was $10,499 AUD. What does that work out to in other currencies?
> 
> $6700 USD
> $9500 CAD
> ...



Continue reading...


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## xanbarksdale (May 15, 2020)

I'm guessing (hoping) that it comes in at $4500.


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## CarlMillerPhoto (May 15, 2020)

Not in a million years is it that expensive. Canon has made some gaffes, but they're not that daft to say it's targeting the 5-series market then price it double what that line typically charges. My guess is $4,499 at launch. After a couple months then it'll be selling at $4,199 or even $3,999.


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## PageWorks Studios (May 15, 2020)

ugh - I really REALLY hope you're right that $6700 isn't real. I'm thinking the mid-$3k range would be way too good to be true, expecting mid $4000's myself, too.....


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## pcgizzmo (May 15, 2020)

Do we know the week of the official announcement yet? Canon like the Energizer Bunny keeps going and going and going. I'm tired of hearing about the labor pains let's see the baby already.


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## Doug7131 (May 15, 2020)

Since Canon have basically said that the R5 is a 5D level camera I think we all guessed the price listed was wrong. It was way to close to a 1DX3 to be realistic. I'm still hopeful for a figure around £3799 in the UK.


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## Deleted member 381342 (May 15, 2020)

The pricing will also depend on what the Nikon Z8 is spec'ed and priced at. Canon don't operate in a vacuum and will price the R5 inline with what it expects all the wedding and events photographers are willing to pay and what their competitor is charging for their D850 replacement. I am certainly not expecting it priced with a 1D body, it does not have 1d body specs.


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## jam05 (May 15, 2020)

Once the "Official" price is known, it won't be a rumor any more. Because it will be "Official"


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## jam05 (May 15, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> The pricing will also depend on what the Nikon Z8 is spec'ed and priced at. Canon don't operate in a vacuum and will price the R5 inline with what it expects all the wedding and events photographers are willing to pay and what their competitor is charging for their D850 replacement. I am certainly not expecting it priced with a 1D body, it does not have 1d body specs.


Canon doesn't price anything like Nikon. It's marketed to the 5D market. Canon management has already stated that it is a 5D mk 5 mirrorless. Which leaves a huge price window.


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## Ozarker (May 15, 2020)

Anyone who took a “placeholder “ seriously...


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## H. Jones (May 15, 2020)

For me the only question on price is whether I get the R5 and a 28-70 or just the R5. If it's between 3500-4000, I'm grabbing a 28-70 as my first RF lens, but any higher and the 28-70's just gonna have to wait until 2021. Almost jumped on a like-new 28-70 for $2200, but really need to know how much the R5 is before making that decision. 

If they do price it anywhere near the 1-series, the R5 better beat my 1DX mark II for sports, that's for sure.


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## Besisika (May 15, 2020)

I was worried when I saw it on Youtube, then they changed it to something 2000 less later. 
Anyway, let's wait. I've been waiting for something finally useful from Canon and this could be it, as long as price is in the reach, given the unknown future of the world economy.


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## Andy Westwood (May 15, 2020)

Personally, I’m going to wait and see what both R5 and R6 turn out as. Price wise for the R5 I am hoping £3600 which is A7 R4 territory, but it could be more of a A7 9 II price of 4.5K, guess we will need to wait and see.

I think it is a hard one to guess which such a high spec and with possibly game changing features.


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## neurorx (May 15, 2020)

Yes I would think given the current market, pricing above $4000 would significantly limit purchases. I shoot sports and portraits mostly (and vacation landscapes) so I was hoping for an all-rounder like a 5D. I passed on the 5DIV and saved my pennies in anticipation of a technological leap with an R or 1DX3. I know I would more likely invest in the R5 at this price point and get an RF lens along with it. Pricing this at the 1DX3 level pricing, would really make me pause as I don't really care about video. I don't want the R6's 20mp as I was hoping for the 40mp crop ability. At least the 1DX3, I have assured low light ability and a tank of a camera to use with my EF lenses. I guess we all get to do, what we have been doing....waiting.....


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## Baron_Karza (May 15, 2020)

of course that $6700 USD is NO WAY REALISTIC!

$7,999 USD is more like it (8K = $8K)


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## max (May 15, 2020)

I'm still thinking that maybe as the dollar is 20% stronger to the yen that it was in 2017 and before that maybe the price could fall in the 3500USD range.

even 2900 USD is close to the same amount of yen as 3500USD 2 years ago... (close, don't take the financial analysis too seriously as there is inflation and other factors).


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## MinoltaSRT101 (May 15, 2020)

Any thoughts on the quickest way to get an R5 once they become available? Do I pre-order through a big national site like Adorama or a local camera store chain where I've been buying cameras and lenses for the past 7 or 8 years? My preference is generally to support local camera stores, but I would really like to get my hands on an R5 by early Fall, if possible.


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## mb66energy (May 15, 2020)

My guess is 4000 $ in the USA and 4500 € in Germany ... I would like to go two-identical-bodies again ... so no chance with R5.
Maybe the R6 is better suited for me if it is a low light beast with its 20 MPix plus has excellent Full HD and very good 4k video.
Plus a better chance that R6 and RP (which I own) are ergonomically more similar than R5 and RP.


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## Canfan (May 15, 2020)

The RF glass Already has a premium price. 
pricing the R bodies competitively will give them the edge. I hope they don’t make the mistake of slapping a ridiculous price tag on the R5 as that would hamper sales.They need to setup their game like the lower end R6 only get 20MP in an era of 24MP bodies.
and phones that are setting the bar higher and higher.


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## SpaceGhost (May 15, 2020)

I'll through in my guess as well. I think it'll be $3999 USD. It is targeting the 5D segment (which has come down significantly but I'm comparing to when it was new selling for $3499 USD). I'd expect some upward price creep for the R5.

If it is higher than that, I suspect it will be due to limited availability but I think it'll sell settle at $3999.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 15, 2020)

Based on the agressive pricing that Canon has used for the R and the RP, it should be in the range of USD 2995-$3495, no more. Sales are dropping for digital Cameras, people don't have a lot to spend, and it costs only a few more $$ to make than a R, plenty of profit so a high volume of sales is what they want. They have already said that they want to get lots of cameras out there, because they drive sales of the much more profitable lenses.


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## Architect1776 (May 15, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



It still needs to be $3,499.
Sell it by the millions and get the development cost paid by volume.


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## sanj (May 15, 2020)

$3499


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## timmy_650 (May 15, 2020)

I probably will depend on production levels too. If they have low amount of products but still want to release. Canon will go with a 10-30% price increase with 15% being most likely. Then in 3 months, they can drop the price/ add a rebate and sell more camera when they are available.


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## ukmdb (May 15, 2020)

It is a 1DX Spec camera if not more so wouldn't surprise me it would be that price,
So hope to god it is not though, If it is priced at £4K or less it will be a killer and I for one will get a couple straight away.


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## Crissgab (May 15, 2020)

Apparently will be around £3800 https://www.f64.ro/canon-eos-r5-body/p?utm_source=2parale&utm_medium=afiliere&utm_campaign=f38059b4b


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## Dj 7th (May 15, 2020)

Hoping it will be no more than $3500. if it is above that, I will hold on to the EOS R for a while. I am falling in love more and more with the EOS R anyway.


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## Trey T (May 15, 2020)

I’ll take half of R5 @ $3350 ... lol


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## navastronia (May 15, 2020)

OK, I'm calling it at $3795. Final answer!


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## dancan (May 15, 2020)

The most important thing is: what IQ do we get for how much money?


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## Joules (May 15, 2020)

ukmdb said:


> It is a 1DX Spec camera


It isn't though. No matching card slots (-> also no unlimited buffer if you write to both cards), no 16 FPS mechanical shutter*, no vertical grip, likely inferior ruggedness, different connectivity... Not to mention, for some folks not having an OVF is a total no go.

There’s a good chance the R5 won't have GPS either.

*EDIT: Actually, that's the wrong comparison. The 16 FPS is for the entire mirror assembly, the shutter itself is actually 20 FPS in the 1DX III. So, almost twice as fast and likely still more durable than the one in the R5. 

The R5 is a throughput monster. And it looks like Canon for once doesn't hold back on the abilities that brings to the table. But they still called it the R5 (As in 5 series pricing and segment) and said they want to target a broad customer base with it.


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## R1-7D (May 15, 2020)

I still think it is going to be a pay-to-play situation for some of the video features. You buy the camera, probably for $3499 USD, and then if you want the fancy video features you pay extra.


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## mpmark (May 15, 2020)

all the "take my money canon" posters before and now, "wait what? stop the transfer!" LOL


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## peters (May 15, 2020)

My guess is 4200€ including vat in germany and first deliveries in october/november. 

Though for me personaly even 5000€ would be worth it. I have a variety of 6-7 cameras in use for different photo and video-tasks that ALL could be replaced with 2-3 Canon R5s so I would even make some money with the switch, even if it was 5k per R4.


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## peters (May 15, 2020)

R1-7D said:


> I still think it is going to be a pay-to-play situation for some of the video features. You buy the camera, probably for $3499 USD, and then if you want the fancy video features you pay extra.


Hm I dont think this is gonna be the case. The only time this happend was the 100$ Clog upgrade for the 5D. But this wasnt realy a regular "plan" and the cost was basicaly for the hardware changes that the service need to do on the camera. I think it will be all in.


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## peters (May 15, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> If they do price it anywhere near the 1-series, the R5 better beat my 1DX mark II for sports, that's for sure.


I think the R5 will even beat the 1DX III. At least the specs we know so far speak a very clear language. 
Its faster, got a newer AF and offers a much higher resolution and more advanced video feauters. I also have the 1DX II but I have no doubt that the R5 will surpass it in pretty much every feature thats interesting for me


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## mbike999 (May 15, 2020)

I just can't see this thing being $6700 when the A7RIV is $3500.


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## peters (May 15, 2020)

mbike999 said:


> I just can't see this thing being $6700 when the A7RIV is $3500.


I have the A7RIV and 5D IV - with the specs we know so far i can see the R5 to be priced SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the A7RIV.
Given the specs we know so far, the R5 will be MUCH more powerful than the A7RIV (which is a capable camera, but certainly has its shortcomings).
The resolution of the A7 is a bit higher (though in real life this isnt as important as people think. Its very difficult to actual get images that are THAT sharp, to actualy take advantage of the 60mpixel. You need an incredible sharp lense and ideal conditions to get an actualy tack sharp image with so many pixels). But besides that, the R5 appears to be MUCH more advanced. The Video features are without doubt 2 generations ahead (even if we only consider the allready officialy noted features) and the 20fps with 45mpixel are also realy impressive on the photo-side and much better than the A7 with 10fps. And that leaves "meta" features aside, like a bad menu system, mediocre battery life, smaller lense selection, noteable worse skin colors, faster and wider service, a slow and unsharp viewfinder and display, bad ergonomics, dust collecting sensor and a smaller 3rd party accessoires selection. Dont get me wrong, the A7R IV is quite some amazing camera with a realy impressive AF system and Sensor - but its not as incredible and versatile as youtuber keeps telling us ;-)
I think the R5 may have the chance to replace a lot of photocameras in all kinds of works AND a lot of videocameras. It has the potential to be next allround-camera that the 5D II was once. In this position it can be worth quite a LOT of money.
6700$ is certainly to high, but I think a higher pricing than the A7RIV is certainly justified. Given that its very likely to be a way more capable photocamera and MUCH more powerful videocamera as well.


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## herein2020 (May 15, 2020)

R5 - $3999.00
R6 - $2499.00

The S1H which in my opinion is the most similar to the R5 was $3999 at launch.
The S1 which in my opinion is the most similar to the R6 was $2499 at launch

No other cameras in my opinion are in Canon's league so to me it doesn't make sense to compare the R5's pricing to Sony, nor does it make sense to compare it to the 5D since everything is more expensive now including lenses. Inflation and the currency exchange rates alone today compared to when the 5D launched means this body really should be over $4000USD. 

For those saying they can price it low and make up for it in volume...what volume? Dedicated cameras are targeting a rapidly shrinking pool of potential buyers, the only way Canon is going to make anything off of this camera is to price it appropriately ($4K+) and sell it on specs alone. If they really were going for "volume" the RF mount would be the same price as the EF mount lenses.


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## peters (May 15, 2020)

dancan said:


> The most important thing is: what IQ do we get for how much money?


I personaly dont think so. Pure IQ is not realy the only important factor. There is so much to a camera, especialy if you use it for hours every day. Handling, reliability, accessories, software integration, ergonomics, responsiveness, ease of use, service speed, speed, transfer speed, ports... thats one of the reasons why the 1D line is so expensive while its IQ is certainly not the best out there. (In my experience the 5D IV beats the 1DX II in image quality, one reason is the little bit higher resolution and the bit more modern processor. But I usualy prefer to use the 1D because of the amazing viewfinder and better ergonomics)


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## peters (May 15, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> R5 - $3999.00
> R6 - $2499.00
> 
> The S1H which in my opinion is the most similar to the R5 was $3999 at launch.
> ...


I agree. Though I think that the R5 got the potential to be sold in higher volume than the 5D IV - because it offers both, great photo AND great video specs. Something that the 5D IV greatly missed - the 4k video features where realy bad (VERY bad rolling shutter, unhandy codec, very big crop factor, bad audio preamp). I think the R5 is going to be attractive to a bigger audience.


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## herein2020 (May 15, 2020)

peters said:


> I agree. Though I think that the R5 got the potential to be sold in higher volume than the 5D IV - because it offers both, great photo AND great video specs. Something that the 5D IV greatly missed - the 4k video features where realy bad (VERY bad rolling shutter, unhandy codec, very big crop factor, bad audio preamp). I think the R5 is going to be attractive to a bigger audience.


I think there are two sides to that discussion. When the 5D IV launched video was not as important, and there were more potential buyers of the 5DIV than there are now. Really the only ones who suddenly started hyping video were YouTubers which then spread to regular camera buyers; who were 'influenced' by all of the YouTubers. Sony saw their window of opportunity and filled the video gap for years while Canon did nothing; but this all happened after the 5DIV launch.

Ironically Panasonic has been there all along with amazing video features in their MFT format but because it was MFT pixel peepers dismissed them and bought into the FF Sony marketing hype. The S1H and S1 was their response to that but they ******* themselves by going with a proprietary L mount and expensive new lenses.


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## Cbenedict (May 15, 2020)

I wrote this price down in Febuary and is just an educated guess but $3799 Bob!


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## DBounce (May 15, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> For me the only question on price is whether I get the R5 and a 28-70 or just the R5. If it's between 3500-4000, I'm grabbing a 28-70 as my first RF lens, but any higher and the 28-70's just gonna have to wait until 2021. Almost jumped on a like-new 28-70 for $2200, but really need to know how much the R5 is before making that decision.
> 
> If they do price it anywhere near the 1-series, the R5 better beat my 1DX mark II for sports, that's for sure.



The 28-70 is too big to make carrying it regularly practical. I’m happy with my RF 24-70. I already have the trinity, so it’s a given I will add the R5 also. I disagree with the poster who said it does not have 1D specs... I think in many ways it surpasses 1D specs. That said, I do hope if they price it in the $6k range they give it the bullet proof build of the 1Ds.


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## joestopper (May 15, 2020)

xanbarksdale said:


> I'm guessing (hoping) that it comes in at $4500.



Why?
After all it is the 5D equivalent in mirrorless (Canon language) ... so we should expect rather USD 3,500 - 4,000 ....


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## Quarkcharmed (May 16, 2020)

mbike999 said:


> I just can't see this thing being $6700 when the A7RIV is $3500.


Exactly. A7RIV is the competitor here. Also Z7 is around $3500. So it's highly unlikely the R5 will be priced significantly higher than Sony or Nikon.

In case they decide to still charge money for 8K and set it around $4500, I think I'll be switching to Sony. I don't care much about the video specs. I'm loyal to Canon but not that loyal.


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## H. Jones (May 16, 2020)

Thought that just crossed my mind: maybe if we spread 10,000 dollar price tag rumors enough Canon will *have* to announce the price, just like they did with the 8K spec clarification


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## Go Wild (May 16, 2020)

This is overpriced and I do hope it is not the correct price. If it is, it will make me reconsider the purchase. Although I do think it is a fantastic camera, this is too much for a mirrorless. The most expensive mirrorless of the market is the A9II and its priced at 5300€. I do consider the R5 superior to this one, but the price is out for about 1000€. If it´s not a competitive price that people can buy...it wont be relevant to make a hell of a camera! That´s why I don´t care about Ferrari´s, I will never going to have one!  

Well....Now, realistically...If...and IF the camera has that price, of course for what the camera give to you it´s a price that Canon can Justify. However, i think that it´s a price that the market will have trouble to justify. We are living hard days. We see brands droping prices because of bad sales. We (the photographers) are passing hard moments...Jobs cancelled and for example my friends Wedding photographers are out of job for the whole year! Canon must take into consideration the actual market situation. This is... if they are interested to get a very high sales camera...Otherwise I don´t see a lot of people buying this one. I may do it, i have skipped the 1DxIII to wayt for this one, but damn....this is too high...Yesterday I was sure I was going to buy it...But I always thought that 5300€ was the limit price...it´s 1000€ more...DO HOPE this is wrong and the price will be around 4900€ or so!  
The A7rIV is an inferior camera of course, but it´s priced 4500€....


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## Toglife_Anthony (May 16, 2020)

I was shocked at how many sites and IG stories from photographers and the like I saw reposting that article. Common sense would say Canon isn't dumb enough to price a 5D-level camera at a 1DX pricepoint. R5 would be DOA!


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## Canfan (May 16, 2020)

ukmdb said:


> It is a 1DX Spec camera if not more so wouldn't surprise me it would be that price,
> So hope to god it is not though, If it is priced at £4K or less it will be a killer and I for one will get a couple straight away.



This is the year 2020.


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## Hector1970 (May 16, 2020)

Considering professional photographers business's and wedding photographers are severely hit and will be from some time to come Canon would want to be careful with the price they do set. They will have no trouble selling the first cameras but will struggle to sell alot if they keep a pre Co-Vid 19 mindset on what price they can achieve. For alot of people buying an overpriced camera will be the last thing on their mind.


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## Quarkcharmed (May 16, 2020)

peters said:


> Its very difficult to actual get images that are THAT sharp, to actualy take advantage of the 60mpixel. You need an incredible sharp lense and ideal conditions to get an actualy tack sharp image with so many pixels


61mp against 30mp on say 5DIV gives only 41% more resolution, I don't think it takes incredible effort to get sharp images from Sony on a tripod.


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## usern4cr (May 16, 2020)

> Based on the agressive pricing that Canon has used for the R and the RP, it should be in the range of USD 2995-$3495, no more. Sales are dropping for digital Cameras, people don't have a lot to spend, and it costs only a few more $$ to make than a R, plenty of profit so a high volume of sales is what they want. They have already said that they want to get lots of cameras out there, because they drive sales of the much more profitable lenses.


I will 2nd this! I also think it will come out between $2999 and $3499. That will be a true salvo across the bow of Sony! It will more than just introduce a new body, it will also launch those coveted Canon RF lenses into eagerly waiting hands across the world!


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## tmc784 (May 16, 2020)

Set it at $3599 USD. I take it without hesitation.


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## xanbarksdale (May 16, 2020)

joestopper said:


> Why?
> After all it is the 5D equivalent in mirrorless (Canon language) ... so we should expect rather USD 3,500 - 4,000 ....



Everything in their mirrorless line is more expensive than the EF equivalent. This camera has specs that are so much better than any other camera it’s not even funny...it will be priced accordingly.


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## venusFivePhotoStudio (May 16, 2020)

In my country it appeared the price at a big Foto Video shop at the price of 4300EUR.
https://www.f64.ro/canon-eos-r5-body/p?idsku=312360&utm_source=2parale&utm_medium=afiliere&utm_campaign=9e3d046be


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## BillB (May 16, 2020)

peters said:


> I think the R5 may have the chance to replace a lot of photocameras in all kinds of works AND a lot of videocameras. It has the potential to be next allround-camera that the 5D II was once. In this position it can be worth quite a LOT of money.
> 6700$ is certainly to high, but I think a higher pricing than the A7RIV is certainly justified. Given that its very likely to be a way more capable photocamera and MUCH more powerful videocamera as well.


Well, Canon thinks it knows what costs it has to cover, and has estimates of what the price/ volume curve looks like. Unless they really overran on their development costs, my guess is they have a camera that they can make money on at a price below $4000, and maybe at $3500. I think they are going to go for volume rather than high margin on each unit.

The 5DIII came out at $3499 in 2012 and the 5DIV came out at $3499 in 2016. In today’s dollars the initial price of the 5DIII was $3900 and the initial price of the 5DIV was $3700, and volume isn’t what it used to be. My guess is that that the R5 will be $3799-3999.


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## sanj (May 16, 2020)

There are no jobs currently and I will not buy it until I need to. And if it is above $3500 I will buy it only if I get a job that truly needs me to buy it. If I analyze specs of R and job requirements, it does practically everything one may need. R5 will do it better, but business is business.


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## pcho (May 16, 2020)

I was told by local Australian retailer that the Australian retail price will be between AUS$6000-7000. If it is $6500 it will be about US$4000. Generally US prices are cheaper than Australian price even when converted to Aus price. So I suspect the retail price in US to be less than 4k. More like 3.5k
It cannot be over Aus$10,000 as that’s about the price of the 1dxmklll


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## derpderp (May 16, 2020)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> Not in a million years is it that expensive. Canon has made some gaffes, but they're not that daft to say it's targeting the 5-series market then price it double what that line typically charges. My guess is $4,499 at launch. After a couple months then it'll be selling at $4,199 or even $3,999.



$3999 is the maximum it can go in the current climate. or they could price it slightly higher, and offer an immediate trade-in discount/rebate. pricing it at $4500 would limit the potential customer base to those who are either professionals who really need the camera, or those who are well-heeled and largely unaffected by the economic downturn.


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## BeenThere (May 16, 2020)

How about a free R5 body with the purchase of any RF lens? Just as plausible.


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## herein2020 (May 16, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> 61mp against 30mp on say 5DIV gives only 41% more resolution, I don't think it takes incredible effort to get sharp images from Sony on a tripod.


I think that's Peter's point...the key word here is "on a tripod", a tripod is the last thing I'm lugging around when I'm doing a sunset swimsuit shoot half way down the beach; let alone for a model that will probably never do more than upload them to her Instagram feed at a 960x1200 resolution.

Sure you can get razor sharp images out of almost any camera; but when it needs to sit on a tripod to do so it has eliminated pretty much any scenario except nature, studio, or specific commercial work which is not a camera that is going to appeal to the masses.

I shot a runway fashion show with my 5DIV beside a photographer with a 5DS...it was almost comical how blurry his images were; we're talking a low light situation, fast moving models, and no tripod. Obviously he bought into the MP hype.


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## JeffP (May 16, 2020)

If Canon was smart and wanted to capture the full frame mirrorless market they would sell the R5 for $3,499. They wouldn't be able to keep up with production if that was the price. If they price the R5 over $5,000 they would lose tons of sales to people who are not pros.


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## degos (May 16, 2020)

BillB said:


> I think they are going to go for volume rather than high margin on each unit.



That assumes that they can manufacture the R5 in volume. If yields aren't high on that 40MP sensor then they will.not be able to chase volume.


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## rwvaughn (May 16, 2020)

MinoltaSRT101 said:


> Any thoughts on the quickest way to get an R5 once they become available? Do I pre-order through a big national site like Adorama or a local camera store chain where I've been buying cameras and lenses for the past 7 or 8 years? My preference is generally to support local camera stores, but I would really like to get my hands on an R5 by early Fall, if possible.



Never ever get a first batch product. Wait for the kinks to be worked out in the second batch.


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## Berowne (May 16, 2020)

The 6200€-Rumor is in the range of the Sony A9 II (5400€) and the Leica SL 2 (5900€), so it is not impossible.


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## sanj (May 16, 2020)

rwvaughn said:


> Never ever get a first batch product. Wait for the kinks to be worked out in the second batch.


No such logic


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## Memirsbrunnr (May 16, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Guess they already have the price for a future Canon RX1 mark I


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## scottkinfw (May 16, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


if the price really is $6700 USD, that will be a no for me, regrettably!


Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


At $6700 USD it goes head to head with the 1DX III. That doesn't seem smart at all to me.


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## Pape (May 16, 2020)

6k they dont need sell it without good profit.
R6 will be with minimal profit 2,5k . gift for poor peoples like 7d.
R and RP were made from cheap parts ,cant compare them to new cameras.
They are doing now big leap to make top quality mirrorless camera possible.


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## DylanC (May 16, 2020)

You know what I’d be happy with?

$3499 USD for 4K 60/120fps 4:2:0 RAW internal and $500 firmware upgrade for 8K 30fps internal


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## herein2020 (May 16, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Exactly. A7RIV is the competitor here. Also Z7 is around $3500. So it's highly unlikely the R5 will be priced significantly higher than Sony or Nikon.
> 
> In case they decide to still charge money for 8K and set it around $4500, I think I'll be switching to Sony. I don't care much about the video specs. I'm loyal to Canon but not that loyal.


I'm truly curious here...why would you switch to Sony? Based on your signature you have the exact same Canon body and glass that I do and I'm still getting paid every day for photography jobs using my setup; what exactly do you think you are missing that Sony will provide? No matter what the price of the R5 I have no real interest in getting it; my current setup can still handle every job I throw at it.

Now if you say you don't want weather sealing, you don't mind having your sensor last less than 2yrs, you don't like Canon's color science, you like a terrible menu system, and you want terrible ergonomics then your plan to switch makes perfect sense.


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## Michael Clark (May 16, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think there are two sides to that discussion. When the 5D IV launched video was not as important, and there were more potential buyers of the 5DIV than there are now. Really the only ones who suddenly started hyping video were YouTubers which then spread to regular camera buyers; who were 'influenced' by all of the YouTubers. Sony saw their window of opportunity and filled the video gap for years while Canon did nothing; but this all happened after the 5DIV launch.
> 
> Ironically Panasonic has been there all along with amazing video features in their MFT format but because it was MFT pixel peepers dismissed them and bought into the FF Sony marketing hype. The S1H and S1 was their response to that but they ******* themselves by going with a proprietary L mount and expensive new lenses.



Most of that happened between the 2012 launch of the 5D Mark III and the 2016 launch of the 5D Mark IV.


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## Michael Clark (May 16, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> Thought that just crossed my mind: maybe if we spread 10,000 dollar price tag rumors enough Canon will *have* to announce the price, just like they did with the 8K spec clarification



Then again, the more very high priced rumours that get circulated, the more likely it may give Canon ideas that there are enough potential buyers willing to pay that much...


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## Michael Clark (May 16, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> 61mp against 30mp on say 5DIV gives only 41% more resolution, I don't think it takes incredible effort to get sharp images from Sony on a tripod.



If you can find a Sony lens that isn't at least moderately misaligned from the factory. Just ask Uncle Roger about that.


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## Michael Clark (May 16, 2020)

My prediction is that the MSRP in the U.S. when introduced will be $3,799. After they've milked all of the early adopters and production has caught up with demand it will settle to $3,499 for the next couple of years.


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## Antono Refa (May 16, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think there are two sides to that discussion. When the 5D IV launched video was not as important, and there were more potential buyers of the 5DIV than there are now. Really the only ones who suddenly started hyping video were YouTubers which then spread to regular camera buyers; who were 'influenced' by all of the YouTubers. Sony saw their window of opportunity and filled the video gap for years while Canon did nothing; but this all happened after the 5DIV launch.
> 
> Ironically Panasonic has been there all along with amazing video features in their MFT format but because it was MFT pixel peepers dismissed them and bought into the FF Sony marketing hype. The S1H and S1 was their response to that but they ******* themselves by going with a proprietary L mount and expensive new lenses.



The vlogging market is buying FF cameras en masse? The average vlogger must have deeper pockets than I thought.


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## SteveC (May 16, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> In case they decide to still charge money for 8K and set it around $4500, I think I'll be switching to Sony. I don't care much about the video specs. I'm loyal to Canon but not that loyal.





herein2020 said:


> I'm truly curious here...why would you switch to Sony? [...]



As I had suspected all along. The people coming in from out of nowhere complaining the camera does too much...are "getting a Sony" trolls.


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## Quarkcharmed (May 16, 2020)

SteveC said:


> As I had suspected all along. The people coming in from out of nowhere complaining the camera does too much...are "getting a Sony" trolls.


Out of nowhere?  Check my profile, the number of messages and threads I've participated. 
I'm all after Canon. But $4500 USD for the R5 would be too much, and currently it's the only camera from Canon I'm interested in. There's also the prospective high-mp R5s, but it'll be of the same price as R5 or higher.


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## SecureGSM (May 16, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Out of nowhere?  Check my profile, the number of messages and threads I've participated.
> I'm all after Canon. But $4500 USD for the R5 would be too much, and currently it's the only camera from Canon I'm interested in. There's also the prospective high-mp R5s, but it'll be of the same price as R5 or higher.


++++ But $4500 USD for the R5 would be too much

A.M.: Yes.. I am glad you realise that. The question remains though: why are we even discuss this arbitrary number? It is pointless.
Anything north of US$4,000.00 in USA at launch is not going to fly in present market conditions. My bet is on around US$3,750.00 price at launch.


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## Joules (May 16, 2020)

What happened to the 'mirrorless allows for lower cost' argument? Seems to me like this is exactly what Canon are doing here. Spread out development cost over greater number of products. Which is possible since there are less body specific developments for these bodies.

The AF specifically is now software only. It all works on super high resolution DPAF CMOS sensors. No variations in spread and point type and sensitivities from model model. It's all evenly spaced pixels split in the same fashion into two photosites. I bet they don't have to put in nearly the same effort to give future bodies animal eye AF as they did for the R5. And they may even add it to the 1DX III in post, if they decide giving the LiveView more capabilities than the OVF AF won't upset too many users.

Why would an R5 cost nearly as much as a 1DX III, when it has a less cutting edge card configuration, slower and most likely less durable shutter, no mirror and corresponding CMOS AF Array, no mirror motors and no vertical grip and corresponding ruggedness?

Literally the only thing the R5 seems to have over the 1DX III in terms of hardware is an H265 encoder capable of handling 8K*. So do some smartphones. It certainly has its cost, yes. But Canon for sure would not have included that if it was a huge cost factor given the challenges of the current market situation (even pre pandemic). The M50 introduced 4K H. 264, didn't it? That's a low end model getting the first high end encoder. And here we have a high end model getting a high end encoder an assume it will add a few grant to the price? And again, they would not have needed to include that. 8K RAW would have been enough to crush everything else out there.

*Granted, it also has an EVF. But I don't know of any compelling evidence that that would add cost.


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## mpb001 (May 16, 2020)

I bought a new 5DIV in 2017 with a Canon USA warranty for $3299. It was with a Canon $200 rebate. So, I think an R5 would probably start to come in around $3599. Just my guess. Maybe the R6 around $2499.


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## peters (May 16, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> 61mp against 30mp on say 5DIV gives only 41% more resolution, I don't think it takes incredible effort to get sharp images from Sony on a tripod.


Yes, on a steady tripod and with a perfect high end lense at the sweet f-stop with very bright light and a non moving subject its certainly possible.
But in everyday situations, photographing events for example you have very rarely these conditions. I would say what I usualy achieve is something like 40mpixel "sharpness". The zoom lense I use on the Sony (GM 24-70) is probably not sharp enough to give me realy tacksharp 61mp where very pixel is truely sharp. Adding moving people and dark lighting I certainly rarely have pictures at weddings where the 61mp TRUELY make a difference. 
So the advantage of having such a high megapixel count on a Fullframe sensor isnt as big as people tend to think. Though I dont mind having it of course :-D For productshots its a gem to have. Retouching and perfect cutouts are much easier with this resolution. The 1DX II with 20mpixel for example is certainly a way worse option for studio work (though the viewfinder and overall handling is a charm).


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## peters (May 16, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think there are two sides to that discussion. When the 5D IV launched video was not as important, and there were more potential buyers of the 5DIV than there are now. Really the only ones who suddenly started hyping video were YouTubers which then spread to regular camera buyers; who were 'influenced' by all of the YouTubers. Sony saw their window of opportunity and filled the video gap for years while Canon did nothing; but this all happened after the 5DIV launch.


Ha jeah, you are right. Its hard to tell how many photographers are in reality interested in video features. The annoying youtube influencers certainly makes it look like the video feature is 50% of a professional camera :-D


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## MaximPhotoStudio (May 16, 2020)

Shouldn't this post be a CR4 because you are certain that you don't know the price?


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## HenAyr (May 16, 2020)

The CR Rating System describes CR0 as "Basically a Joke" .... so why give this topic any more undeserved oxygen ?


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## TracerHD (May 16, 2020)

My guess in €: 3.999 - 4.499

References:
5D III - 3.299 (2012)
5D IV - 4.065 (2016)
R - 3.499 (2018)
Z7 - 3.849 (2018)
A7R III - 3.499 (2017)

Lower Price because of corona, higher price because of strategy of increasing price with every new product.


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## Quarkcharmed (May 16, 2020)

Photography is only a side business for me, I make much much more through my primary job.
So it's closer to a hobby. But even then, if the R5 is $1000 more than the 5DIV, it's too much.
Note it's an 'if', in fact I don't think Canon will actually ask $4500 for it. So I'm hoping to stay with my lenses and with Canon.



herein2020 said:


> I'm truly curious here...why would you switch to Sony? Based on your signature you have the exact same Canon body and glass that I do and I'm still getting paid every day for photography jobs using my setup; what exactly do you think you are missing that Sony will provide? No matter what the price of the R5 I have no real interest in getting it; my current setup can still handle every job I throw at it.
> 
> Now if you say you don't want weather sealing, you don't mind having your sensor last less than 2yrs, you don't like Canon's color science, you like a terrible menu system, and you want terrible ergonomics then your plan to switch makes perfect sense.


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## Quarkcharmed (May 16, 2020)

For events/action/concerts that's true, but I'm shooting less and less concerts, especially in this corona year, and more and more landscapes. I've also done quite a bit of portraiture and this is also where is good to have it as sharp as possible.



peters said:


> Yes, on a steady tripod and with a perfect high end lense at the sweet f-stop with very bright light and a non moving subject its certainly possible.
> But in everyday situations, photographing events for example you have very rarely these conditions. I would say what I usualy achieve is something like 40mpixel "sharpness". The zoom lense I use on the Sony (GM 24-70) is probably not sharp enough to give me realy tacksharp 61mp where very pixel is truely sharp. Adding moving people and dark lighting I certainly rarely have pictures at weddings where the 61mp TRUELY make a difference.
> So the advantage of having such a high megapixel count on a Fullframe sensor isnt as big as people tend to think. Though I dont mind having it of course :-D For productshots its a gem to have. Retouching and perfect cutouts are much easier with this resolution. The 1DX II with 20mpixel for example is certainly a way worse option for studio work (though the viewfinder and overall handling is a charm).


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## Trey T (May 16, 2020)

I’m not buying one if it’s higher than $3500. AND no one should be either


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## peters (May 16, 2020)

Trey T said:


> I’m not buying one if it’s higher than $3500. AND no one should be either


I can replace my 1DX II, 5D IV, S1H (+lense), GH5 (+lenses) and A7R IV (+lense and batteries) with just 2 of the EOS R5 (and I would even win on all functionality and in quality). Why exactly shouldnt I make this trade, even if its coting 4500$? 
Or do I miss the irony? :-D


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## BillB (May 16, 2020)

peters said:


> So the advantage of having such a high megapixel count on a Fullframe sensor isnt as big as people tend to think. Though I dont mind having it of course :-D For productshots its a gem to have. Retouching and perfect cutouts are much easier with this resolution. The 1DX II with 20mpixel for example is certainly a way worse option for studio work (though the viewfind


As with so many magic number specifications, the practical significance of more mp is certainly debatable. Often, the questions comedown to in which use cases the difference is even noticeable and how important it is. Magic number specs are good for endless hours of fun on the internet though, DR being the classic example.


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## Joules (May 16, 2020)

BillB said:


> As with so many magic number specifications, the practical significance of more mp is certainly debatable.


There are instances in which more megapixels, more FPS, more DR and so on help. It simply comes down to the individual photographer, their experience, technique, preferences and budget how much impact a certain spec has.

There comes a point where for a majority of users there's very little improvement they'll notice. But if you have a specific use case that benefits from an improvement, that's just as well. It would be nice if we all just could acknowledge that we have different needs and not insist on having a word in what others need or enjoy or have a right to ask for. Be that more or less megapixels, more or less DR, more or less card slots, or any other quantifiable spec.


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## usern4cr (May 16, 2020)

BillB said:


> As with so many magic number specifications, the practical significance of more mp is certainly debatable. Often, the questions comedown to in which use cases the difference is even noticeable and how important it is. Magic number specs are good for endless hours of fun on the internet though, DR being the classic example.


Speaking of important things (instead of just MP comparisons), I've been looking into the issue of dust on sensors since I've heard so many stories about dust constantly getting on Sony sensors (even if they never swap lenses) and no problems on almost all the other camera makers. AFAIK Sony just uses their IBIS to shake the sensor (at relatively low cycle/sec rates) to try and get the dust off (if I'm wrong, please let me know). Olympus tried that and saw it didn't work, and pioneered piezo shake of a thin front layer at many tens of thousands of times per second which was carefully honed until the dust just fell down off it like snow. They licensed it to many others, and AFAIK Canon uses the same basic piezo technique (it's really hard to find detailed info on this with Canon, by the way).

I happen to have a EM1mark2 and after 3 years and many thousands of photos I have never once had an issue with dust on the sensor. If I switched to Sony and had to clean it before most days of important photography then I'd go absolutely nuts. So that (and no fully articulating screen) are 2 reasons I will not consider them, no matter what the MP difference and cost is.


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## Josh Leavitt (May 16, 2020)

Previous releases of the 5D series since the 5D III have launched at $3499. I think that Canon will try to make the R5 fall within the same region to the best of their ability since they've already stated that the R5 is a mirrorless replacement for the 5D series. But it could be a bit higher since Canon have declared their intentions to focus on higher-end products with greater profit margins to make up for lost revenue in these past few years (i.e. price hikes for prosumer glass and cameras), and there's also the volatility in the foreign exchange market with the current pandemic going on, so we might see some inflation adjustment. 

I think that a similar price point to the Panasonic S1H makes sense ($3999). With what we know so far, it outclasses the S1H in video, and mops the floor with it in stills; so it's arguable that an even higher launch price, say $4299, would be within reason.


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## herein2020 (May 16, 2020)

HenAyr said:


> The CR Rating System describes CR0 as "Basically a Joke" .... so why give this topic any more undeserved oxygen ?


Because we are all stuck indoors with nothing else to do other than debate a price that doesn't exist.


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## bmfotonet (May 16, 2020)

I think it will be priced at $4500 USD. I'm basing my opinion on the higher prices for the RF Lenses compared to EF Lenses. Look at current pricing for the RF 24-70 2.8 and 70-200 2.8 compared to their EF counterparts. This is going to be a high price system.


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## peters (May 16, 2020)

BillB said:


> As with so many magic number specifications, the practical significance of more mp is certainly debatable. Often, the questions comedown to in which use cases the difference is even noticeable and how important it is. Magic number specs are good for endless hours of fun on the internet though, DR being the classic example.


Jeah, couldnt agree more


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## Aregal (May 16, 2020)

MinoltaSRT101 said:


> Any thoughts on the quickest way to get an R5 once they become available? Do I pre-order through a big national site like Adorama or a local camera store chain where I've been buying cameras and lenses for the past 7 or 8 years? My preference is generally to support local camera stores, but I would really like to get my hands on an R5 by early Fall, if possible.


BestBuy; in-store pickup. That's how I got my 5D4 the week it was released in 2016. There were 3 in the LA area when I purchased mine. Within the hour, they were sold out, especially at Samy's Camera.


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## geffy (May 16, 2020)

I would like to know the price at a year after launch as that is when i might buy, once they have fixed the problems and updated the firmware


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## David Hull (May 16, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Hopefully, this thing settles out at around $3300 USD, (after perhaps an initial fleecing of the early adopters). If it doesn't it will mean that they ae raising the traditional 5D series price point.


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## sanj (May 16, 2020)

MaximPhotoStudio said:


> Shouldn't this post be a CR4 because you are certain that you don't know the price?


Exactly RIGHT


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## Rixy (May 16, 2020)

$5000 definitely


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## brad-man (May 16, 2020)

geffy said:


> I would like to know the price at a year after launch as that is when i might buy, once they have fixed the problems and updated the firmware


It'll be $3300.00 a year after release. I didn't want to keep you in suspense for that long...


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## herein2020 (May 16, 2020)

bmfotonet said:


> I think it will be priced at $4500 USD. I'm basing my opinion on the higher prices for the RF Lenses compared to EF Lenses. Look at current pricing for the RF 24-70 2.8 and 70-200 2.8 compared to their EF counterparts. This is going to be a high price system.



Finally..another voice of reason. If Canon were going for 'volume" and matching past release prices the RF mount lenses would cost the same as the EF mount. For me the RF mount lenses is the main reason I'm not interested in the R5, the price of entry into the R system includes expensive new lenses. I know there's adaptors but I only use native mounts, I don't want another piece of gear just to put the lens on the camera.



Aregal said:


> BestBuy; in-store pickup. That's how I got my 5D4 the week it was released in 2016. There were 3 in the LA area when I purchased mine. Within the hour, they were sold out, especially at Samy's Camera.



I bought my 5DIV from BestBuy as well, mainly because I buy their GeekSquad protection each time in addition to my regular insurance. I bought my 5D3 and 5D4 from there.


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## mpmark (May 16, 2020)

I honestly believe this is a marketing ploy, scare people into high prices and when it comes in at what the cost should be (5D type release price) it makes it look like a bargain.


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## joestopper (May 16, 2020)

pcho said:


> I was told by local Australian retailer that the Australian retail price will be between AUS$6000-7000. If it is $6500 it will be about US$4000. Generally US prices are cheaper than Australian price even when converted to Aus price. So I suspect the retail price in US to be less than 4k. More like 3.5k
> It cannot be over Aus$10,000 as that’s about the price of the 1dxmklll



Why should an Australian retailer know. Unless there is an official announcement no one knows the price - not even Canon.


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## mpmark (May 16, 2020)

Canfan said:


> The RF glass Already has a premium price.
> pricing the R bodies competitively will give them the edge. I hope they don’t make the mistake of slapping a ridiculous price tag on the R5 as that would hamper sales.They need to setup their game like the lower end R6 only get 20MP in an era of 24MP bodies.
> and phones that are setting the bar higher and higher.



firstly, you can't even compare a phone to a full frame sensor camera and the capabilities, regardless of MP, that's just plain dumb.
Secondly 20MP is really close to 24MP so I don't really see an issue there.


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## AEWest (May 16, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> The pricing will also depend on what the Nikon Z8 is spec'ed and priced at. Canon don't operate in a vacuum and will price the R5 inline with what it expects all the wedding and events photographers are willing to pay and what their competitor is charging for their D850 replacement. I am certainly not expecting it priced with a 1D body, it does not have 1d body specs.


But there is no Z8 to compare to...


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## analoggrotto (May 16, 2020)

This things going to be out of stock for months.


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## Deleted member 381342 (May 16, 2020)

AEWest said:


> But there is no Z8 to compare to...



Not yet no there isn't. But the point is Canon doesn't price things in a vacuum and will be aware that Nikon are working on a pro body too. The great thing for us Canon users is it does mean we will always have a $3500 competitive camera from Canon, or they wont be able to compete.


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## privatebydesign (May 16, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I think that's Peter's point...the key word here is "on a tripod", a tripod is the last thing I'm lugging around when I'm doing a sunset swimsuit shoot half way down the beach; let alone for a model that will probably never do more than upload them to her Instagram feed at a 960x1200 resolution.
> 
> Sure you can get razor sharp images out of almost any camera; but when it needs to sit on a tripod to do so it has eliminated pretty much any scenario except nature, studio, or specific commercial work which is not a camera that is going to appeal to the masses.


The difference between 30mp and 61mp when downsized to 1200 on the long side is irrelevant.



herein2020 said:


> Sure you can get razor sharp images out of almost any camera; but when it needs to sit on a tripod to do so it has eliminated pretty much any scenario except nature, studio, or specific commercial work which is not a camera that is going to appeal to the masses.
> 
> I shot a runway fashion show with my 5DIV beside a photographer with a 5DS...it was almost comical how blurry his images were; we're talking a low light situation, fast moving models, and no tripod. Obviously he bought into the MP hype.


At same sized output and cropped the same (using the same lens) there is no reason for a MP difference to be detectable regarding sharpness, handheld or not. If the guy was getting more blur than you at the same sized output he was using a longer shutterspeed, nothing else, the mp numbers just don't come into the equation like you are implying.

Images are not more blurred because they have more pixels. Having more pixels enables you to get more resolution if you use techniques that realize that potential, fast enough shutter speed/exposure time, enough contrast, good lenses etc etc. You do not need a tripod to shoot 60mp images that have pixel level detail, but not all images shot with 60mp cameras will have as much detail as they could if optimal technique wasn't used.


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## reefroamer (May 16, 2020)

My guess continues to be US$2,999. The market is shrinking and Canon has prioritized market share in full-fame digital cameras. That means higher volumes. A lower price will be a huge winner and suck the oxygen from competitors ... IF Canon production can meet demand. They have a real opportunity here to deliver a knockout product at a knockout price. That's a killer one-two punch. Now is not the time for business as usual. I think Canon completely gets this. We'll know soon enough.


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## AEWest (May 17, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> Not yet no there isn't. But the point is Canon doesn't price things in a vacuum and will be aware that Nikon are working on a pro body too. The great thing for us Canon users is it does mean we will always have a $3500 competitive camera from Canon, or they wont be able to compete.


But you mentioned that Canon has to price based on Z8 specs and price...how can they do that when there are no specs or price or even confirmation of such a camera?


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## Ozarker (May 17, 2020)

max said:


> I'm still thinking that maybe as the dollar is 20% stronger to the yen that it was in 2017 and before that maybe the price could fall in the 3500USD range.
> 
> even 2900 USD is close to the same amount of yen as 3500USD 2 years ago... (close, don't take the financial analysis too seriously as there is inflation and other factors).


But does the exchange rate really matter? It seems that Canon would price for the region regardless of exchange rate. I don't see daily, weekly, or monthly fluctuations in prices at dealers because the exchange rate has changed.


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## privatebydesign (May 17, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> My guess continues to be US$2,999. The market is shrinking and Canon has prioritized market share in full-fame digital cameras. That means higher volumes. A lower price will be a huge winner and suck the oxygen from competitors ... IF Canon production can meet demand. They have a real opportunity here to deliver a knockout product at a knockout price. That's a killer one-two punch. Now is not the time for business as usual. I think Canon completely gets this. We'll know soon enough.


Ha, market share when nobody can make anything and few people can buy it even if they do? All the companies are going to have to maximize the profit per item which means a higher price to start with until demand drops off and production and personal economies ramp up. I'd guess a longer term price at $3,499 to $3,699 and a launch price of $3,999 or more.


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## privatebydesign (May 17, 2020)

max said:


> I'm still thinking that maybe as the dollar is 20% stronger to the yen that it was in 2017 and before that maybe the price could fall in the 3500USD range.
> 
> even 2900 USD is close to the same amount of yen as 3500USD 2 years ago... (close, don't take the financial analysis too seriously as there is inflation and other factors).


Yeh that's why the 1DX III launched at $2,000 less than the MkII did!  
Launch price:
MkII $5,999
MkIII $6,499


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## Hector1970 (May 17, 2020)

This camera is coming into a very difficult market. Alot of Canon's customers who would have bought it might have second thoughts now. Wedding photographers won't exactly have spare cash at the moment. Setting the price point for this is very tricky. I'd say Canon would be looking for $4500 to $5000 for the camera but bar the initial rush may find it a difficult camera to shift at that price. Even a lower price might not be attractive for a while as people work out do they have the future incomes to spend that much money on a luxury item or a work tool. I personally will not be committing to any major spending on photography until I am sure I remain employed. We've only been 3/4 months impacted by this virus. The economic impact is to follow and its a viscous downward cycle for an extended period of time. We are way off a vaccine (we may never get a vaccine or aqcuire substantial immunity) and it will come back in waves. No people focused business is going to be the same for a while. Countries opening up now could be shut back down. It has a big chance of being endemic. People buy cameras either because its part of their job or to travel to places to take photographs or do portrait photography. It will take years for tourism to recover to what it was. It will decrease as a hobby and a business in the short term.


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## sanj (May 17, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> This things going to be out of stock for months.


I am not sure about that. Buying power is at a low currently. And we may have a world wide recession.


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## sanj (May 17, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> This camera is coming into a very difficult market. Alot of Canon's customers who would have bought it might have second thoughts now. Wedding photographers won't exactly have spare cash at the moment. Setting the price point for this is very tricky. I'd say Canon would be looking for $4500 to $5000 for the camera but bar the initial rush may find it a difficult camera to shift at that price. Even a lower price might not be attractive for a while as people work out do they have the future incomes to spend that much money on a luxury item or a work tool. I personally will not be committing to any major spending on photography until I am sure I remain employed. We've only been 3/4 months impacted by this virus. The economic impact is to follow and its a viscous downward cycle for an extended period of time. We are way off a vaccine (we may never get a vaccine or aqcuire substantial immunity) and it will come back in waves. No people focused business is going to be the same for a while. Countries opening up now could be shut back down. It has a big chance of being endemic. People buy cameras either because its part of their job or to travel to places to take photographs or do portrait photography. It will take years for tourism to recover to what it was. It will decrease as a hobby and a business in the short term.


Very likely this is what will happen. Hope not!


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## myplanet (May 17, 2020)

I think we will probably see a price of $3799-$4199, the specs just seem too good relative to the competition and like others have said, the RF lenses are a bit more expensive than their EF counterparts. The exchange rate may help such that we see it below $4K, but seems to me that it's a whole lot of camera, giving everyone everything they have asked for. It just seems likely that they would expect to get some return on their efforts. Might have had a few hundred off for Black Friday or Christmas, but with the launch date pushed back, not counting on that, maybe if they need to get their quarterly numbers up, we might see a price dip, but I won't count on it, I want it for a trip next spring, so I will wait and watch.

As far as the virus, the damage is done, it has been more media hype and politics, which have worsened the problem. Forty percent (40%) of the deaths have been nursing home patients made exponentially worse when idiots like Cuomo forced them on the nursing homes, consequentially exposing the most vulnerable patients. We are seeing it moving to folks in their late 20's-early 30's where I live, primarily because they live with their 55-65 year old parents, and the prolonged exposure is resulting in the younger generation getting it. With traditional families of parents with elementary to high school kids, the kids would have had mild disease and developed a natural immunity, like with chicken pox, increasing herd immunity. As folks get back to work and there are no significant outbreaks, they will come to realize they were hoodwinked by Faux, Birx, Dems and MSM trying to inflict as much pain on people trying to keep Trump from getting a second term. When we didn't know what we were up against, caution was warranted, but as data points became available, we needed to shift policy, not double down on bad policy. I would watch how Sweden trends over the next 3 weeks. Isolating healthy people just keeps the potential reservoir number higher, herd immunity is what is required, and Sweden was projecting they will have achieved that next week, if their numbers tail off, that will reveal the virus' natural course. Personally I don't want a vaccine, those of you that remember Swine Flu in the 70's, significant problems with the vaccine, I don't want Guillain-Barre or something else, this is a viral respiratory disease, not polio, and I trust Sabin and Salk more than the folks at CDC currently.


----------



## privatebydesign (May 17, 2020)

sanj said:


> I am not sure about that. Buying power is at a low currently. And we may have a world wide recession.


Buying power is low but so is manufacturing capacity. It's taken up to now to get a 1DX III on the shelf and 'mirrorslappers' are definitely not the in demand tool they were. I expect demand to outstrip supply on the R5 for quite a while, even to the extent of Canon artificially restricting the supply to maintain the initial premium and to keep the hype going.


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## sanj (May 17, 2020)

Crissgab said:


> Apparently will be around £3800 https://www.f64.ro/canon-eos-r5-body/p?utm_source=2parale&utm_medium=afiliere&utm_campaign=f38059b4b


Thx.


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## dcm (May 17, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I honestly believe this is a marketing ploy, scare people into high prices and when it comes in at what the cost should be (5D type release price) it makes it look like a bargain.



I doubt retailers really want to scare anybody. They want to generate interest. They want to put a price out there rather than TBD. So the safe bet is to pick a number just below the 1DXIII. Lowering the price later won't be a problem. If they advertise a price that is too low now, they could have problems later, both with Canon and the customer.


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## unfocused (May 17, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> But does the exchange rate really matter? It seems that Canon would price for the region regardless of exchange rate. I don't see daily, weekly, or monthly fluctuations in prices at dealers because the exchange rate has changed.



People are always trying to guess pricing using exchange rates. It's ridiculous. Canon is a multinational company with multinational revenues and expenses. Product pricing has to include dozens, if not hundreds, of inputs including marketing, shipping, parts, labor, distribution, retailer profit, etc. etc. It's not like the cost of putting the camera together in Japan is the only or even the major expense for a camera. The employees of Canon USA are not paid in yen. The companies that ship the product to markets worldwide are not paid in yen. The truckers that deliver the product to B&H and Adorama are not paid in yen. The ads for the product are not purchased with yen. The retailers don't figure their profits in yen. 

Exchange rate may not be *totally* irrelevant, but it's *mostly* irrelevant.


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## Eclipsed (May 17, 2020)

SpaceGhost said:


> I'll through in my guess as well. I think it'll be $3999 USD. It is targeting the 5D segment (which has come down significantly but I'm comparing to when it was new selling for $3499 USD). I'd expect some upward price creep for the R5.
> 
> If it is higher than that, I suspect it will be due to limited availability but I think it'll sell settle at $3999.


$3999 is my prediction. This won’t be about Nikon. This will be the Sony killer.


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## Ozarker (May 17, 2020)

unfocused said:


> People are always trying to guess pricing using exchange rates. It's ridiculous. Canon is a multinational company with multinational revenues and expenses. Product pricing has to include dozens, if not hundreds, of inputs including marketing, shipping, parts, labor, distribution, retailer profit, etc. etc. It's not like the cost of putting the camera together in Japan is the only or even the major expense for a camera. The employees of Canon USA are not paid in yen. The companies that ship the product to markets worldwide are not paid in yen. The truckers that deliver the product to B&H and Adorama are not paid in yen. The ads for the product are not purchased with yen. The retailers don't figure their profits in yen.
> 
> Exchange rate may not be *totally* irrelevant, but it's *mostly* irrelevant.


I agree. I once worked for Korean Circuits of America. My pay did not fluctuate with exchange rates. I was paid what the market was for my area. I assume that prices for Japanese products sold in the USA are based on what the market will bear here in the USA regardless of the exchange rate. Exchanging currencies while traveling from one country to another is something completely different. I believe that product pricing in one country has little, if anything, to do with exchange rates. Am I supposed to believe that an RF 85mm f/1.2L would be $5k in the USA if the dollar slides? I don't think so.


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## unfocused (May 17, 2020)

myplanet said:


> I think we will probably see a price of $3799-$4199, the specs just seem too good relative to the competition and like others have said, the RF lenses are a bit more expensive than their EF counterparts. The exchange rate may help such that we see it below $4K, but seems to me that it's a whole lot of camera, giving everyone everything they have asked for. It just seems likely that they would expect to get some return on their efforts. Might have had a few hundred off for Black Friday or Christmas, but with the launch date pushed back, not counting on that, maybe if they need to get their quarterly numbers up, we might see a price dip, but I won't count on it, I want it for a trip next spring, so I will wait and watch.
> 
> As far as the virus, the damage is done, it has been more media hype and politics, which have worsened the problem. Forty percent (40%) of the deaths have been nursing home patients made exponentially worse when idiots like Cuomo forced them on the nursing homes, consequentially exposing the most vulnerable patients. We are seeing it moving to folks in their late 20's-early 30's where I live, primarily because they live with their 55-65 year old parents, and the prolonged exposure is resulting in the younger generation getting it. With traditional families of parents with elementary to high school kids, the kids would have had mild disease and developed a natural immunity, like with chicken pox, increasing herd immunity. As folks get back to work and there are no significant outbreaks, they will come to realize they were hoodwinked by Faux, Birx, Dems and MSM trying to inflict as much pain on people trying to keep Trump from getting a second term. When we didn't know what we were up against, caution was warranted, but as data points became available, we needed to shift policy, not double down on bad policy. I would watch how Sweden trends over the next 3 weeks. Isolating healthy people just keeps the potential reservoir number higher, herd immunity is what is required, and Sweden was projecting they will have achieved that next week, if their numbers tail off, that will reveal the virus' natural course. Personally I don't want a vaccine, those of you that remember Swine Flu in the 70's, significant problems with the vaccine, I don't want Guillain-Barre or something else, this is a viral respiratory disease, not polio, and I trust Sabin and Salk more than the folks at CDC currently.


Wow! Just drink some Clorox and it will all be okay.


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## Ozarker (May 17, 2020)

myplanet said:


> As far as the virus, the damage is done, it has been more media hype and politics, which have worsened the problem. Forty percent (40%) of the deaths have been nursing home patients made exponentially worse when idiots like Cuomo forced them on the nursing homes, consequentially exposing the most vulnerable patients. We are seeing it moving to folks in their late 20's-early 30's where I live, primarily because they live with their 55-65 year old parents, and the prolonged exposure is resulting in the younger generation getting it. With traditional families of parents with elementary to high school kids, the kids would have had mild disease and developed a natural immunity, like with chicken pox, increasing herd immunity. As folks get back to work and there are no significant outbreaks, they will come to realize they were hoodwinked by Faux, Birx, Dems and MSM trying to inflict as much pain on people trying to keep Trump from getting a second term. When we didn't know what we were up against, caution was warranted, but as data points became available, we needed to shift policy, not double down on bad policy. I would watch how Sweden trends over the next 3 weeks. Isolating healthy people just keeps the potential reservoir number higher, herd immunity is what is required, and Sweden was projecting they will have achieved that next week, if their numbers tail off, that will reveal the virus' natural course. Personally I don't want a vaccine, those of you that remember Swine Flu in the 70's, significant problems with the vaccine, I don't want Guillain-Barre or something else, this is a viral respiratory disease, not polio, and I trust Sabin and Salk more than the folks at CDC currently.


We generally do not discuss politics here. You should take that somewhere else. This *IS NOT* a global conspiracy against Trump and is not a hoax. If it is a hoax, then Trump has bought into it hook, line and sinker to the tune of trillions of $. Just knock it off. In fact, get the heck out of here with that B.S. I come to this website to get away from crazy $%$T like that! I live in Texas, a very conservative state. We shut down too. So stop with the Liberal vs Conservative conspiracy crap. BTW: Trump is no conservative. If you think he is, then you aren't either. He's just an ignorant jack wagon. Unfortunately, I voted for him in 2016. He's been an embarrassment all along. He won't get our vote in 2020. He has ZERO class whatsoever.


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## brad-man (May 17, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> We generally do not discuss politics here. You should take that somewhere else. This *IS NOT* a global conspiracy against Trump and is not a hoax. If it is a hoax, then Trump has bought into it hook, line and sinker to the tune of trillions of $. Just knock it off. In fact, get the heck out of here with that B.S. I come to this website to get away from crazy $%$T like that! I live in Texas, a very conservative state. We shut down too. So stop with the Liberal vs Conservative conspiracy crap. BTW: Trump is no conservative. If you think he is, then you aren't either. He's just an ignorant jack wagon. Unfortunately, I voted for him in 2016. He's been an embarrassment all along. He won't get our vote in 2020. He has ZERO class whatsoever.


Save your breath. You can't fix stupid...


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## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (May 17, 2020)

Eclipsed said:


> $3999 is my prediction. This won’t be about Nikon. This will be the Sony killer.



My guess is $3500.00

And the reasoning, similar to where the 5DSR and 5D mk iv soid, but I think Canon's RF lenses are priced high enough to bring the body down lower and gain ground with lens sales.

I wouldn't call it a Sony Killer .. but I think it's going to slam the brakes on Sony sales enough to see cracks in the windshield from a head bash.

...


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## privatebydesign (May 17, 2020)

myplanet said:


> I would watch how Sweden trends over the next 3 weeks. Isolating healthy people just keeps the potential reservoir number higher, herd immunity is what is required, and Sweden was projecting they will have achieved that next week, if their numbers tail off, that will reveal the virus' natural course. Personally I don't want a vaccine, those of you that remember Swine Flu in the 70's, significant problems with the vaccine, I don't want Guillain-Barre or something else, this is a viral respiratory disease, not polio, and I trust Sabin and Salk more than the folks at CDC currently.



You can make statistics support any argument. Sweden has twice the mortality per population than the similarly sized and financed Switzerland, why would anybody hold up Sweden as an example for citizens health?

Personally I have been very fortunate in this whole thing but for those professing it was a huge overreaction by the lefties/cabal's/anti whoevers, I'd try saying that to the loved ones of the over 320,000 people who have died. I'd also like a decent explanation as to why in the richest country in the history of mankind that has less than 4% of the worlds population they account for over 31% of the infections worldwide even with the severe under testing, and if that country has the greatest health care system in the world for it's citizens why does that <4% account for 29% of the worlds fatalities?


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## Starting out EOS R (May 17, 2020)

myplanet said:


> I think we will probably see a price of $3799-$4199, the specs just seem too good relative to the competition and like others have said, the RF lenses are a bit more expensive than their EF counterparts. The exchange rate may help such that we see it below $4K, but seems to me that it's a whole lot of camera, giving everyone everything they have asked for. It just seems likely that they would expect to get some return on their efforts. Might have had a few hundred off for Black Friday or Christmas, but with the launch date pushed back, not counting on that, maybe if they need to get their quarterly numbers up, we might see a price dip, but I won't count on it, I want it for a trip next spring, so I will wait and watch.
> 
> As far as the virus, the damage is done, it has been more media hype and politics, which have worsened the problem. Forty percent (40%) of the deaths have been nursing home patients made exponentially worse when idiots like Cuomo forced them on the nursing homes, consequentially exposing the most vulnerable patients. We are seeing it moving to folks in their late 20's-early 30's where I live, primarily because they live with their 55-65 year old parents, and the prolonged exposure is resulting in the younger generation getting it. With traditional families of parents with elementary to high school kids, the kids would have had mild disease and developed a natural immunity, like with chicken pox, increasing herd immunity. As folks get back to work and there are no significant outbreaks, they will come to realize they were hoodwinked by Faux, Birx, Dems and MSM trying to inflict as much pain on people trying to keep Trump from getting a second term. When we didn't know what we were up against, caution was warranted, but as data points became available, we needed to shift policy, not double down on bad policy. I would watch how Sweden trends over the next 3 weeks. Isolating healthy people just keeps the potential reservoir number higher, herd immunity is what is required, and Sweden was projecting they will have achieved that next week, if their numbers tail off, that will reveal the virus' natural course. Personally I don't want a vaccine, those of you that remember Swine Flu in the 70's, significant problems with the vaccine, I don't want Guillain-Barre or something else, this is a viral respiratory disease, not polio, and I trust Sabin and Salk more than the folks at CDC currently.


I agree with the 1st half of your comment, Canon are in a difficult position as with the R5 specs, it is a similar proposition to the 1DX MK111 but if they price it accordingly, it won't sell but as a '5D mkiv' mirrorless replacement, the normal 5D MKIV $3500 ish price level is probably underpriced so with the current and medium financial future so uncertain, we will have to wait and see what they decide, will they price for selling loads or price for what it is and only sell low number?
I have to say the 2nd half of your comment would be better placed on a political forum and has no place on this site. I'm sure we all have our own thoughts on how respective governments have or have not performed but the Canonrumors site isn't the place to express them sorry, just saying.


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## XL+ (May 17, 2020)

peters said:


> I have the A7RIV and 5D IV - with the specs we know so far i can see the R5 to be priced SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the A7RIV.
> Given the specs we know so far, the R5 will be MUCH more powerful than the A7RIV (which is a capable camera, but certainly has its shortcomings).
> The resolution of the A7 is a bit higher (though in real life this isnt as important as people think. Its very difficult to actual get images that are THAT sharp, to actualy take advantage of the 60mpixel. You need an incredible sharp lense and ideal conditions to get an actualy tack sharp image with so many pixels). But besides that, the R5 appears to be MUCH more advanced. The Video features are without doubt 2 generations ahead (even if we only consider the allready officialy noted features) and the 20fps with 45mpixel are also realy impressive on the photo-side and much better than the A7 with 10fps. And that leaves "meta" features aside, like a bad menu system, mediocre battery life, smaller lense selection, noteable worse skin colors, faster and wider service, a slow and unsharp viewfinder and display, bad ergonomics, dust collecting sensor and a smaller 3rd party accessoires selection. Dont get me wrong, the A7R IV is quite some amazing camera with a realy impressive AF system and Sensor - but its not as incredible and versatile as youtuber keeps telling us ;-)
> I think the R5 may have the chance to replace a lot of photocameras in all kinds of works AND a lot of videocameras. It has the potential to be next allround-camera that the 5D II was once. In this position it can be worth quite a LOT of money.
> 6700$ is certainly to high, but I think a higher pricing than the A7RIV is certainly justified. Given that its very likely to be a way more capable photocamera and MUCH more powerful videocamera as well.


Hmmm, as an owner and user of the 1DXII, 5D4, 7R4, I do not think the R5 will be the "all in one"-camera. Canon would never cut theirsales of their incredible video bodies. The R5 will be the Canon "7R4", with some improvements, but also some shortcomings. The Sony has an fantastic AF system, birding is a dream with this body. But it has more noise the the 1DXII and also as the 5DIV when you go above 800 Iso - (but double the MP). The benefit of the Af system is the faster tracking when there is an inconsistent backgroung like trees, sand, rocks. 
8k is nice. But who honestly needs it today? It will take some years, the TV and display producing companies will introduce 8k in the mainstream. Some enthusiasts will be happy with it. But for the mainstream even FHD will be good for them.
I do not believe Canon will put the R5´s price about 3999$. This will be a little bit under 5000€ in Europe.


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## SecureGSM (May 17, 2020)

XL+ said:


> Hmmm, as an owner and user of the 1DXII, 5D4, 7R4, I do not think the R5 will be the "all in one"-camera. Canon would never cut theirsales of their incredible video bodies. The R5 will be the Canon "7R4", with some improvements, but also some shortcomings. The Sony has an fantastic AF system, birding is a dream with this body. But it has more noise the the 1DXII and also as the 5DIV when you go above 800 Iso - (but double the MP). The benefit of the Af system is the faster tracking when there is an inconsistent backgroung like trees, sand, rocks.
> 8k is nice. But who honestly needs it today? It will take some years, the TV and display producing companies will introduce 8k in the mainstream. Some enthusiasts will be happy with it. But for the mainstream even FHD will be good for them.
> I do not believe Canon will put the R5´s price about 3999$. This will be a little bit under 5000€ in Europe.


++++ 8k is nice. But who honestly needs it today? 

8K is useful for zooming and panning.
I am not claiming to be a videographer myself but had a number of conversations with pros re usefulness of 8K zooming and panning and takeaway from these conversations is: yes, very useful. hard to overestimate.


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## AlanF (May 17, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> You can make statistics support any argument. Sweden has twice the mortality per population than the similarly sized and financed Switzerland, why would anybody hold up Sweden as an example for citizens health?
> 
> Personally I have been very fortunate in this whole thing but for those professing it was a huge overreaction by the lefties/cabal's/anti whoevers, I'd try saying that to the loved ones of the over 320,000 people who have died. I'd also like a decent explanation as to why in the richest country in the history of mankind that has less than 4% of the worlds population they account for over 31% of the infections worldwide even with the severe under testing, and if that country has the greatest health care system in the world for it's citizens why does that <4% account for 29% of the worlds fatalities?


Well said!


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## AlanF (May 17, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> We generally do not discuss politics here. You should take that somewhere else. This *IS NOT* a global conspiracy against Trump and is not a hoax. If it is a hoax, then Trump has bought into it hook, line and sinker to the tune of trillions of $. Just knock it off. In fact, get the heck out of here with that B.S. I come to this website to get away from crazy $%$T like that! I live in Texas, a very conservative state. We shut down too. So stop with the Liberal vs Conservative conspiracy crap. BTW: Trump is no conservative. If you think he is, then you aren't either. He's just an ignorant jack wagon. Unfortunately, I voted for him in 2016. He's been an embarrassment all along. He won't get our vote in 2020. He has ZERO class whatsoever.


Well said. We don't discuss politics here but stupidity once aired has to be answered clearly and firmly.


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## dflt (May 17, 2020)

This will go around 2-3k at max.


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## JustUs7 (May 17, 2020)

Just skimming some of the chatter here and other places about pricing. Forgive me if it’s been said.

This is *not* a normal financial crisis where an economic slowdown has left people holding excess inventory and underutilized production capacity. We aren’t going to produce our way out of it and have excess supply to basically give away. All that talk is just people hoping to get something on the cheap that they normally couldn’t afford.

Production has been halted in many places. It won’t be cheap to ramp back up (outside of the cost for oil right now). Ramp up will be slow. Supply will be limited. And if demand is high from professionals, there will be a waiting list to receive.

I’m no photographer, but just eyeballIng the specs, this will be $4,000 - $4,500. Maybe as high as $5,000. There will still be delays in filling orders.


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## SecureGSM (May 17, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> Just skimming some of the chatter here and other places about pricing. Forgive me if it’s been said.
> 
> This is *not* a normal financial crisis where an economic slowdown has left people holding excess inventory and underutilized production capacity. We aren’t going to produce our way out of it and have excess supply to basically give away. All that talk is just people hoping to get something on the cheap that they normally couldn’t afford.
> 
> ...


++++ And if demand is high from professionals,

A.M.: And if not, then what?

++++ I’m no photographer, but just eyeballIng the specs, this will be $4,000 - $4,500. Maybe as high as $5,000

A.M.: is that based on your industry experience, track record of similar projects or being an industry insider?
How did you arrive at the number? Please enlighten me.

++++ All that talk is just people hoping to get something on the cheap that they normally couldn’t afford.
A.M.: Not at all. it is just that paying $5000 for a Canon 5 series is not a great idea.


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## HenryL (May 17, 2020)

I've refrained from commenting on these price speculations to this point, but I'm feeling jumpy this morning so why not? 

The camera was designed to a certain price point. Canon knows their target demographic and associated price range that group will bear, so they built this camera to include as much as they can and still fit within this range. We don't know for sure what that range is, but based on previous products yeah, as many have noted it's $3499 +/- a few hundred $. 

I don't believe that Canon will offer discounts because the economy is hurting, nor will they take part in price gouging to take advantage of any short supply. They are in the game for the long haul, and neither scenario plays out in their favor over time. Additionally, as I indicated already, they've known the price from the products inception...they likely don't have much room to make last minute changes in either direction.

IMHO, it MAY price out at $3499, likely will price out at $3799, and may go as high as $3999. Comparisons to an RF system price hike, to me, seem exaggerated. Pricing for RF lenses doesn't seem significantly higher than EF equivalents at their respective releases.

EF 24-70 2.8 L II - 2299 (per Wikipedia, DPR says it was 2200)
RF 24-70 2.8 L - 2299

EF 16-35 2.8L III - 2199
RF 15-35 2.8 - 2299

EF 70-200 2.8L II - 2499 - included here because the Mk III is identical but for some new lens coatings
EF 70-200 2.8L III - 2099 - price cut, mostly due to the lack of engineering costs in creating this version
RF 70-200 2.8L - 2699

All that is to say yeah, there may well be a slight price bump over the 2 most recent 5-series cameras, and that would be perfectly in line with the slight price bump we have seen with RF glass. The mystery will likely be over in 10 days or so - Photokina would have been next week, so I believe the wait for all the details is almost over.


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## Chris.Chapterten (May 17, 2020)

HenryL said:


> I've refrained from commenting on these price speculations to this point, but I'm feeling jumpy this morning so why not?
> 
> The camera was designed to a certain price point. Canon knows their target demographic and associated price range that group will bear, so they built this camera to include as much as they can and still fit within this range. We don't know for sure what that range is, but based on previous products yeah, as many have noted it's $3499 +/- a few hundred $.
> 
> ...


I agree with your sensible prediction


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## sanj (May 17, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> Just skimming some of the chatter here and other places about pricing. Forgive me if it’s been said.
> 
> This is *not* a normal financial crisis where an economic slowdown has left people holding excess inventory and underutilized production capacity. We aren’t going to produce our way out of it and have excess supply to basically give away. All that talk is just people hoping to get something on the cheap that they normally couldn’t afford.
> 
> ...


No.


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## Trey T (May 17, 2020)

peters said:


> I can replace my 1DX II, 5D IV, S1H (+lense), GH5 (+lenses) and A7R IV (+lense and batteries) with just 2 of the EOS R5 (and I would even win on all functionality and in quality). Why exactly shouldnt I make this trade, even if its coting 4500$?
> Or do I miss the irony? :-D


You have a lot great gears bro. I would love to see your lens collection


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## JustUs7 (May 17, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> ++++ And if demand is high from professionals,
> 
> A.M.: And if not, then what?
> 
> ...



Accounting and finance background. Work in commercial banking. Teach accounting. Seeing first hand how businesses are being impacted by the current situation.

I’m just saying the normal downward price pressures *may *not apply due to the supply disruptions. It’d be one thing if they were sitting on a surplus of inventory. They could look at their carrying costs vs their contribution margin and price to move inventory if necessary. Typically production capacity isn’t disrupted in a recession. Demand is the first to go. This is a completely different economic slowdown with supply chain disruption.

Aside from all that, you’re looking at a body with 1.5x the megapixels as the 5D4. Twice the FPS. 8k video. Some of this can’t be touched by any other camera in their lineup. Some of that seems like it commands a bit a price premium over the 5d4 debut.


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## 6degrees (May 17, 2020)

too much


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## Go Wild (May 17, 2020)

We all want that the camera be reasonably priced. But what is reasonable? Well...reasonable is the price we can reach!  For me reasonable is that the camera could cost between 4500€-5500€ in retail price in Europe (about 3500$-4500$). Don´t consider price exchange in € and $, i am just making reference points. This is the range I consider reasonable for my pocket. 

Looking to the market and looking to the cameras we have at this moment in the market, the R5 is the top of the top. No mirrorless of the market can deliver you 4k120FPS internally. No mirrorless can deliver you 8k internally. Specially and also with 4:2:2 10 bit! This is insane in a camera! If the codec is right and the quality matches the specs we have here a serious camera! From stills perspective, 20FPS and 12 fps mechanic with 43MP (most probable), with great EVF with the impressive DPAF of Canon...Can you tell me one camera that does this in the market? I believethe Canon EOS R5 cannot be compared t any other camera in the market! 

Saying that, I do think the camera will have a high price. Other consideration to make is to see the recent past and look to the 1dx mkIII. It came out with a price bump of 1000€ in comparison with the launching price of the 1dx mkII. So we can expect that Canon will make a slight bump considering the "references" of prices in the market. 

We are about to have a huge, HUGE camera that can fit either photographers and videographers. Think about it. 43mp enough for studio work and landscape. 20FPS/12FPS enough for wildlife and sports. Connectivity/weather sealing great for journalism. 

We all want a cheap camera...That´s for sure....But you can´t expect to have the best of the best with a price tag equal to a Sony A7r4....

I Believe Canon will make the price around 4500$. It will be around 5500€. And don´t think about Corona virus special prices, that won´t happen. We all know that this are not easy times, we all know that most of us will struggle to make a profit in this future times. But Canon cannot price a product thinking about that. I do think they will consider market shrinking and try to adjust price. But we all know this is premium product and it will be priced like that. 

My hopes...? That Canon gives us the lowest price possible....But honestly, right now I am more concerned with the codec, image quality and the photography specs that we don´t know. 

One thing is for sure, the announcement wont take too long, maybe in the next 15 days...All the big retailers have already prepared and are accepting pre-orders so it wont take long for us to know price and all things....

I am wishing this camera since 2017...Can´t wait for it....Just don´t make it 7000€ (6000$) Canon....For God´s sake!!!


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## SecureGSM (May 17, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> Accounting and finance background. Work in commercial banking. Teach accounting. Seeing first hand how businesses are being impacted by the current situation.
> 
> I’m just saying the normal downward price pressures *may *not apply due to the supply disruptions. It’d be one thing if they were sitting on a surplus of inventory. They could look at their carrying costs vs their contribution margin and price to move inventory if necessary. Typically production capacity isn’t disrupted in a recession. Demand is the first to go. This is a completely different economic slowdown with supply chain disruption.
> 
> Aside from all that, you’re looking at a body with 1.5x the megapixels as the 5D4. Twice the FPS. 8k video. Some of this can’t be touched by any other camera in their lineup. Some of that seems like it commands a bit a price premium over the 5d4 debut.


++++ Aside from all that, you’re looking at a body with 1.5x the megapixels as the 5D4. Twice the FPS. 8k video. Some of this can’t be touched by any other camera in their lineup. Some of that seems like it commands a bit a price premium over the 5d4 debut.
x1.5 megapickles doesn’t qualify for a nearly 30% of the price increase. Use case: 5D3 vs 5DsR 
A7r3 vs a7r4 

a bit price premium? Sure. 10% .


----------



## Dynamics-4-U (May 17, 2020)

Let´ me add a new perspective to the price seekers.
*What is the opportunity cost to go towards a "Canon-RF Eco-system" and a Canon-R5 or future Rx !*

I have a lot of EF L-Senses and had a 5D Mk4 and transitioned to the EOS-R (with mixed feelings) and
I´m like all of us curious about the final announcement 
but for me as a semi pro hobby photographer *I´m more interested what an R5 will do for me i*n Landscape, Street (Portrait) Photography, 
*and then I look for price and the total cost of ownership to transition into the RF-Ecosystem*. (am not a Vlogger)

I'm since over 25y in love with the Canon products (1st model EOS 620 AF), however t
*this time to transiition to an R5 for me means*
*you are commited to R5 + at least two-three native RF Lenses
we talk >10 grands USD 10k USD !!!*
*
Now this is the real hard money Canon wants from us and it is 
the "opportunity cost" to change to an R5 (+,- 1k USD so what) vs the next best alternative
and the higher they put the price
the more unlikely one can affort to transition to the new RF Ecosystem.*
All the Vloggers might afford a Fuji XT4 or an GH4 (good enough maybe ...)

*>10k USD what can you buy instead with the 10k is the question and have more fun and
eventually explore new landscape photography (video)!!!*

a*) A Drone for 1k USD e.g. DJI MAVIC AIR PRO 1/2" sensor with 4k and 48MP or 2k USD with cinematic look .. 
+* Re-Buy a 5D MkIV (in my case) keep old lenses (or move to Sony or Fuji)
+ the latest iMAC all in one with 5k USD

b) a Middle Frame Sensor Digital Camera with less lenses
*c) An interesting Leica SL2 (yes not as fast) and with 1 Lense for Street Lanscape where you hit 10k Grands*
d) A new car ....
e) or whatever is on your shopping list + donation to fund research against Cronoa diseas.

Just a thought to really highlight what I think, we are talking about here is not the Canon EOS R5 +/< xxx USD, in case you
don´t already heavily invested into the RF-Lense gear in hope of Canon beeing reasonable on thier Product-Development and pricing strategy.

With BR

PS: I love what I have seen so far on the EOS-R and RF-Ecosystem gives me and 
the approach Canon took in moving to mirror less, but I´m not yet hurray
as it will cost way more than a reasoable hobby photographer may afford.
(Sadly I would add, maybe I´m just not part of the target audience any more for EOS-R and RF with L-lenses ...)


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## CvH (May 17, 2020)

HenryL said:


> I've refrained from commenting on these price speculations to this point, but I'm feeling jumpy this morning so why not?
> 
> The camera was designed to a certain price point. Canon knows their target demographic and associated price range that group will bear, so they built this camera to include as much as they can and still fit within this range. We don't know for sure what that range is, but based on previous products yeah, as many have noted it's $3499 +/- a few hundred $.
> 
> ...



Well said!


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## justaCanonuser (May 17, 2020)

I have more and more the impression that the current R5 "pricing" spreading in the web is the corona fake news of camera industries.


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## justaCanonuser (May 17, 2020)

maybe we should sacrifice to Kwanon, the buddhist goddess of mercy, after which Canon was originally named, to have mercy with all of those wanting an R5 and not being able to afford Leica level price tags. Okay, let's sing along in the Janis Joplin style: oh Kwanon, would you buy me an EOS Arr Fiive...


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## jam05 (May 17, 2020)

SpaceGhost said:


> I'll through in my guess as well. I think it'll be $3999 USD. It is targeting the 5D segment (which has come down significantly but I'm comparing to when it was new selling for $3499 USD). I'd expect some upward price creep for the R5.
> 
> If it is higher than that, I suspect it will be due to limited availability but I think it'll sell settle at $3999.


$3999 = $4000 would be a bargain and pretty cheap. Anything less than $4000 would pretty much devalue it's advancement in technology and heat dissipation. Advanced smartphones have taken over the $1000 - $1500. Released at $3999 would mean a Christmas price of $3500? A bargain for a device holding equal if not better specs than a RED Dragon DSMC2 6k at pricing at $14950 without a grip and bulkier. At $4000 the device would never be "In stock". Best bet for anyone would be to preorder. One could sell one or two Canon long lenses for that price. $3999 is cheap for 8k FF with IBIS and DPAF RAW uncropped paired with any of Canon magnificent RF lenses.


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## Antono Refa (May 17, 2020)

I think the R5 will be no more than a few hundred dollars more expensive than the 5DmkIV, for two reasons.

Customers upgrading from EF to RF would make Canon a profit. That switch starts with a camera. Too high a price tag would drag that upgrade over a much longer period. E.g. I have a trinity of f/2.8L zoom lenses + 11-24mm f/4L. Of the five items (camera + 4 lenses) I could upgrade maybe two a year. So I'll have to start with an RF body and a mount adapter. The more expensive the R5 & adapter combo is, the longer I'll wait for the price to drop in order to start the process.

Second is I think Canon is testing some of the video features on the R5 prior to releasing them in a cine camera, and take it to mean Canon isn't going to charge the full premium for it. No point in not having enough testers.


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## SecureGSM (May 17, 2020)

jam05 said:


> $3999 = $4000. Maybe. Anything less than $4000 Which would pretty much devalue the advancement in technology. Advanced smartphones have taken over the $1000 - $1500. Released at $3999 would mean a Christmas price of $3500. Pretty cheap for a device holding better specs than a RED Dragon brain alone at pricing at $14950. At $4000 the device would never be "In stock". Best bet for anyone would be to preorder. One could sell one or two Canon long lenses for that price.


your assumptions doesn’t correlate very well With the YoY income growth trajectory of the target Canon 5 series camera bodies audience And number of pro level cameras sold. Use case: SONY sold 2.8M of alpha cameras in 2019 financial year. Down from around 24M of alpha cameras sold in 2010 With market likely to shrink further, do you still think that your theory holds any waters? I am sorry for being direct


----------



## davo (May 17, 2020)

HenryL said:


> I've refrained from commenting on these price speculations to this point, but I'm feeling jumpy this morning so why not?
> 
> The camera was designed to a certain price point. Canon knows their target demographic and associated price range that group will bear, so they built this camera to include as much as they can and still fit within this range. We don't know for sure what that range is, but based on previous products yeah, as many have noted it's $3499 +/- a few hundred $.
> 
> ...


A sensible well thought out post.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (May 17, 2020)

I'm a buyer at about $3500 US. I don't think Canon can sustain a price much higher than that for very long. There are just too many very capable cameras available at reasonable prices in the current market. Despite the impressive top-line video spec's, we have to assume those are going to come with some asterisks. And, as CR posters love to point out, the video market is thin. Video aside, it's going to be a pretty nice 45 MP MILC in a market where there are a number of very capable, competitively prices alternatives. Many with higher MP counts and presumably there will be more bodies coming to market long before we'll se a R5 Mark II.

Could they sell a few bodies at a significantly higher price? Sure they could. But I don't think that is the goal. The goal is to establish a new "standard" mirrorless in the same vein that the 5D was the "standard" DSLR. I don't think you acheive that with a body that sells significantly above the market. The original 5D was priced well below the market (1Ds). Not above. I'm guessing $3899/3999 and then dropping to $3499 by the end of the year.


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## carina_r31 (May 17, 2020)

I really hope this one won't be over 4.000€ at the end of the year. The R5 could be the perfect upgrade to full-frame for me, since I'm both a photographer and videographer. I won't need 8k video right now, but it could be helpful later. I want to use my next camera for a couple of years, and investing in better specs right now seems reasonable to me.


----------



## Canfan (May 17, 2020)

mpmark said:


> firstly, you can't even compare a phone to a full frame sensor camera and the capabilities, regardless of MP, that's just plain dumb.
> Secondly 20MP is really close to 24MP so I don't really see an issue there.




I’m not doing a side by side comparison of a phone to a DSLR. They both do different things. For us to continue to see professional cameras being developed in the future, we need them to remain profitable. The point stems from the rapid pace of development of phone cameras have really hurt camera sales. Because of the convenience of a single device in your pocket all the time. Most people tend to go for them. I’m in no way comparing a camera phone small sensor to a full frame sensor but recognize that with computational photography and convenience, this has been changing the way people view cameras. 20MP is not a deal breaker but is a slight step back from 24MP. 
Not everyone changes their expensive camera as frequently.


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## Canfan (May 17, 2020)

peters said:


> I agree. Though I think that the R5 got the potential to be sold in higher volume than the 5D IV - because it offers both, great photo AND great video specs. Something that the 5D IV greatly missed - the 4k video features where realy bad (VERY bad rolling shutter, unhandy codec, very big crop factor, bad audio preamp). I think the R5 is going to be attractive to a bigger audience.



Canon should price this up coming bodies competitively.
This will help propel the adoption of the R system quicker, sell more RF glass. 
will get some people to switch back.
An once again reclaim their title as King of the Hill.


----------



## peters (May 17, 2020)

Trey T said:


> You have a lot great gears bro. I would love to see your lens collection


Thank you  Jeah its somehow an addiction. But in my agency we do some different kind of work so somehow this collection turns out to be the best combination. 
5D IV and 5D III was my bread and butter for everyday shooting, productshots, business-photos, Events and weddings. One day I got a 1DX II used because video became more and more important for my work - some nice event documentations and some imagefilms where shot on the 1DX II. Its also great for event and replaced the 5D III which I sold. 
For some studio video work I grabed some Gh4 and gh5, which are very afordable used (400€ and 900€) but where great for studio work where we shoot all day long. Before that we used the 5D and 1D - but the FHD image is aweful and the 4k data rate was too much. So the GH4 and GH5 was a handy, cheap and very usefull adition for studio work with bright light and not moving subjects (so no AF needed and the bad ISO performance doesnt matter)
The 1D was replaced by the S1H which is INCREDIBLE good when it comes to image quality, codecs, ports, IBIS (!) and so on. Lowlight quality is truely remarkable. Though it was a bargain and I guess I will sell it in some time. The lack of usable AF is for me personaly quite annoying. Also I dont like the photos - so I expect it got no value over the R5. Same for the 1D - its a nice camera, but with the R5 I dont see any place for the 1D in my kit. 
The A7R IV was bought out of curiosity - I used it a lot on travel where it certainly shines because of the size. Also for some productshots where the resolution comes in handy. But the colors are realy not that great, the menus, ergonomics, dust on sensor, small viewfinder and low resolution display, laggy interface... With the R5 on the horizon I think I can easily sell the A7R IV and get a camera that is equaly small for travel and offers as well a lot of resolution for productshots. 

All in all I have close to zero doubts that I can replace ALL these cameras (1DX II, 5D IV, S1H, GH5, GH4, A7R IV) with just 2 (maybe one more as backup) Canon R5. This will be a great time, without adapting lenses, different batteries or accessories etc... 

The most important lense in my collection is the 24-70 f2,8 L II. I do 80% of my work with this lense. Second most important lense is the 15-30 Tamron VC 2,8 - great for architecture, business photos, etc. My favorite lense is the 50mm Sigma Art 1,4 - best colors, sharpness, bokeh, build quality - truely a beautiful lense. One other important lense is the 70-200 2,8L - great for a lot of thinks, including portraits, productshots or event documentation


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## BillB (May 17, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I'm a buyer at about $3500 US. I don't think Canon can sustain a price much higher than that for very long. There are just too many very capable cameras available at reasonable prices in the current market. Despite the impressive top-line video spec's, we have to assume those are going to come with some asterisks. And, as CR posters love to point out, the video market is thin. Video aside, it's going to be a pretty nice 45 MP MILC in a market where there are a number of very capable, competitively prices alternatives. Many with higher MP counts and presumably there will be more bodies coming to market long before we'll se a R5 Mark II.


The shift from the EF mount to the RF mount complicates things, but generally speaking, it is cheaper and easier to upgrade a camera within the same brand than it is to change brands. A lot of Canon owners who don’t want to pay the price of the R5 are not going to change brands, they are going to stand pat with what they have. So Canon’s challenge is not so much to stop people from jumping to Sony or Nikon as it is to convince Canon owners to buy an R5 (and there a lot of Canon owners out there to be convinced). Lower prices will sell more R5‘s but it is not so much about price competition with Sony and Nikon as it is about convincing Canon owners to upgrade.


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## Starting out EOS R (May 17, 2020)

peters said:


> Thank you  Jeah its somehow an addiction. But in my agency we do some different kind of work so somehow this collection turns out to be the best combination.
> 5D IV and 5D III was my bread and butter for everyday shooting, productshots, business-photos, Events and weddings. One day I got a 1DX II used because video became more and more important for my work - some nice event documentations and some imagefilms where shot on the 1DX II. Its also great for event and replaced the 5D III which I sold.
> For some studio video work I grabed some Gh4 and gh5, which are very afordable used (400€ and 900€) but where great for studio work where we shoot all day long. Before that we used the 5D and 1D - but the FHD image is aweful and the 4k data rate was too much. So the GH4 and GH5 was a handy, cheap and very usefull adition for studio work with bright light and not moving subjects (so no AF needed and the bad ISO performance doesnt matter)
> The 1D was replaced by the S1H which is INCREDIBLE good when it comes to image quality, codecs, ports, IBIS (!) and so on. Lowlight quality is truely remarkable. Though it was a bargain and I guess I will sell it in some time. The lack of usable AF is for me personaly quite annoying. Also I dont like the photos - so I expect it got no value over the R5. Same for the 1D - its a nice camera, but with the R5 I dont see any place for the 1D in my kit.
> ...


Interesting that your moving from a majority of DSLR's to a mirrorless. I just hope that the EVF lag has been reduced. I love my EOSR but tried shooting some ducks landing this afternoon and found it almost impossible to get a pin sharp image using an RF 70-200 at f2.8. The EVF refreshed behind the image so the ducks were never in the centre of the focus point.

I'll admit I mostly take landscapes and didn't buy the R for its fast shutter speed but hope the R5 with up to 20fps has an EVF that can keep up for the occasions I want shots of things that move.

Still want it though


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## David - Sydney (May 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Anyone who took a “placeholder “ seriously...


Well, I did and on 21 Feb as well in Australia! It is fully refundable if I don't make a purchase at time of release. 
Basically, I had a big trip planned with departure on 3-July. Clearly all cancelled now but given the expected release date in time for the Olympics then I could have just got it before the trip.

I had planned to move to RF eventually and since Canon Australia now has a 5 year warranty on lens/bodies, I have also purchased a RF70-200mm at a one-time 15% discount (and avoid possible negative exchange rate). A few months wouldn't make a big difference for me. I don't need a R5 but it would be more than good enough to prise my 5Div from my kit. Weight/size is(was) important as I traveled often with tricky flight weight/size restrictions. I am still concerned about it being too small as the 5Div is just right for my hands. A grip may be worthwhile although I haven't used one before.

If the price is crazy then I won't buy it at release and maybe get a EOS R second hand. I won't speculate about R5 (or RF 100-500mm) release price and will make a decision at the time. There is no downside for me as - thankfully - my employment hasn't been effected (yet).

People talk about exchange rates being mostly irrelevant in pricing in different markets may be true for some products. Apple had no issues to increase their macbook pro pricing by 10% in Australia recently due to exchange rates - very annoying!

Seriously, >160 posts about a clearly wrong price is surprising!!


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## neurorx (May 18, 2020)

For those of you using the R for sports, is there much EVF lag? Do you have to significantly change your technique?


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## Michael Clark (May 18, 2020)

TracerHD said:


> My guess in €: 3.999 - 4.499
> 
> References:
> 5D III - 3.299 (2012)
> ...



And yet in the U.S., the 2012 5D Mark III and 2016 5D Mark IV rolled out at the exact same price: $3,499 USD.

The EOS R in 2018 was priced at $2,299 USD.


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## unfocused (May 18, 2020)

neurorx said:


> For those of you using the R for sports, is there much EVF lag? Do you have to significantly change your technique?


I have tried to use the R for sports, but gave up as there were just too many compromises. 

Yes, the EVF lag is a problem. But there are other problems in my opinion.

Using your thumb to select the autofocus point works brilliantly under most circumstances. But not for sports. I found it very difficult to follow the action using my thumb and the autofocus did not react quickly enough even if I could manage to position the autofocus point on the action.

The ergonomics of the R are such that the tiny and crammed buttons on the back make using back button autofocus very difficult. I ended up programming both the AF/ON button and * button for back button autofocus so that if I could hit either button it would focus. It helps a little, but it's still not as natural as a DSLR. 

I expect that both of these issues will change with the R5, as it will have a joystick and it appears the backside of the body will have buttons placed similarly to the 5D. 

However, I don't expect the R5 to be a great sports camera. I think even Canon believes that DSLRs will still be superior for fast action. My guess is that if you want a good all around camera and you occasionally shoot sports, the R5 will be fine. If you are shooting sports for pay, I believe a DSLR will still suit you better.


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## Michael Clark (May 18, 2020)

brad-man said:


> It'll be $3300.00 a year after release. I didn't want to keep you in suspense for that long...



That likely depends on how long it takes production to catch up with demand at the introductory price. 

It may also depend somewhat on how much the 2020 Olympics and other major sporting events in 2020 being delayed/canceled affects sales of the 1D Mark III. If a lot of potential 1D X Mark III buyers take a pass because they don't need them in 2020 and buy R5 bodies instead, it could keep the R5 price at MSRP for longer than would otherwise be the case.

I think the first big price drop (around $300-400) may not be until the Christmas 2021 shopping season at the very earliest. It may not be until early 2022.


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## Michael Clark (May 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> The difference between 30mp and 61mp when downsized to 1200 on the long side is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> At same sized output and cropped the same (using the same lens) there is no reason for a MP difference to be detectable regarding sharpness, handheld or not. If the guy was getting more blur than you at the same sized output he was using a longer shutterspeed, nothing else, the mp numbers just don't come into the equation like you are implying.
> ...



Or maybe he was less steady holding his camera than you were.


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## privatebydesign (May 18, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Or maybe he was less steady holding his camera than you were.


Either way it's not a pixel density issue, it is a shutter speed/stability issue.


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## herein2020 (May 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> The difference between 30mp and 61mp when downsized to 1200 on the long side is irrelevant.



The difference is that one needs a tripod and one doesn't, my point was lugging around a tripod for a client that will never care that the image started out at 50MP+




privatebydesign said:


> At same sized output and cropped the same (using the same lens) there is no reason for a MP difference to be detectable regarding sharpness, handheld or not. If the guy was getting more blur than you at the same sized output he was using a longer shutterspeed, nothing else, the mp numbers just don't come into the equation like you are implying.
> 
> Images are not more blurred because they have more pixels. Having more pixels enables you to get more resolution if you use techniques that realize that potential, fast enough shutter speed/exposure time, enough contrast, good lenses etc etc. You do not need a tripod to shoot 60mp images that have pixel level detail, but not all images shot with 60mp cameras will have as much detail as they could if optimal technique wasn't used.



Everything I have ever read states that the higher the resolution sensor, the more perfect your technique has to be to prevent vibration which leads to blurriness. There are plenty of examples from reputable sources on that.


FStoppers








With Great Megapixels Come Great Responsibility: A Guide for New High Resolution Camera Owners


Larger images provide a world of options for photographers, but if you're not careful, more pixels could mean more problems. If you're one of the many photographers finding yourself with a new high resolution camera after the holidays, here's a guide to wrangling that newfound resolution. High...




fstoppers.com






And I quote: _"Because high resolution cameras resolve greater detail, there's less wiggle room for camera shake. Subtle vibration not noticeable on a 24-megapixel camera system at 100 percent might be painfully obvious on a 50-megapixel system." _

You did caveat your statement by saying same sized output and cropped the same, but pretty much every source available states higher MP cameras need to be on a tripod. Either way, doesn't matter to me, 30MP is more than enough for me, most of the time I wish it was less to save on storage space. If I get a client that needs more than 30MP I'll just rent a higher resolution camera body.


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## Michael Clark (May 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Yeh that's why the 1DX III launched at $2,000 less than the MkII did!
> Launch price:
> MkII $5,999
> MkIII $6,499



The original 1D X was launched in 2012 at $6,499 when the yen was at a historical high vs. the dollar at less than 80 yen per USD. (1D X = 520K yen)

Since mid-2014 the exchange rate has stayed fairly stable at between 100-120 yen per USD, with it mostly ranging from 105-110 over the past three years.

I think the dip to $5,999 (= 660K yen in mid-March 2016) in 2016 for the 1D X Mark II had more to do with market forces and the perceived superiority of the Nikon D5 vs the 1D X Mark II than the exchange rate. At the very least, the perception was that the D4 was still lagging behind the 1D X in terms of AF accuracy/consistency and that the D5 had at least caught up with, if not passed, Canon's 1D X Mark II.

After all, the 5D Mark III in 2012 and the 5D Mark IV in 2016 both debuted in the U.S at $3,499 USD (= 280K yen in 2012, = 385K yen in 2016).


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## Michael Clark (May 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> You can make statistics support any argument. Sweden has twice the mortality per population than the similarly sized and financed Switzerland, why would anybody hold up Sweden as an example for citizens health?
> 
> Personally I have been very fortunate in this whole thing but for those professing it was a huge overreaction by the lefties/cabal's/anti whoevers, I'd try saying that to the loved ones of the over 320,000 people who have died. I'd also like a decent explanation as to why in the richest country in the history of mankind that has less than 4% of the worlds population they account for over 31% of the infections worldwide even with the severe under testing, and if that country has the greatest health care system in the world for it's citizens why does that <4% account for 29% of the worlds fatalities?



Three primary things can point to a lot of the answer to your question:

1) Not every country is counting/reporting cases and deaths the same. Especially in countries with totalitarian governments, almost no one ever officially dies due to anything that can reflect poorly on that county's public health system and policies.

2) Americans are notoriously committed to individualism in a way that most other cultures are not. When the government tells everyone to do anything, a certain portion of Americans will do the opposite just to prove the "government can't control me", even if compliance with the government mandate would be in their better interest. In most countries the vast majority of folks go along with what their government tells them to do.

3) Americans tend to institutionalize a higher percentage of our old and infirm citizens. People also tend to live longer with chronic health conditions in the U.S. than in many other places, which means we have a higher percentage of our population that is vulnerable to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. The U.S. also has the highest incarceration rate of any industrialized nation. And our institutions also tend to be larger, on the basis of population per each location, than in other countries. Many of the cases and deaths in the United States have been concentrated in such institutions.


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## Michael Clark (May 18, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> Saying that, I do think the camera will have a high price. Other consideration to make is to see the recent past and look to the 1dx mkIII. It came out with a price bump of 1000€ in comparison with the launching price of the 1dx mkII. So we can expect that Canon will make a slight bump considering the "references" of prices in the market.



The 1D X was $6,499 USD
The 1D X Mark II was $5,999 USD at a time when the yen was at an all time high versus the USD
The 1D X Mark III was $6,499 USD 

It's my observation that the drop in price for the 1D X Mark II compared to both the 1D X and the 1D X Mark III was mostly due to the existence of the Nikon D5, which was perceived to be the only Nikon D1/2/3/4/5 series to have better AF than the concurrent Canon 1-Series. It didn't hurt that in 2016 $5,999 USD bought 660K yen, compared to the 520K yen that $6,499 USD could buy in 2012. 

In 2020, the Nikon D6 is an afterthought compared to the 1D X Mark III, and the return to pricing it at $6,499, like the 1D X, reflects that.


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## privatebydesign (May 18, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> The difference is that one needs a tripod and one doesn't, my point was lugging around a tripod for a client that will never care that the image started out at 50MP+



But that is simply not true.




herein2020 said:


> Everything I have ever read states that the higher the resolution sensor, the more perfect your technique has to be to prevent vibration which leads to blurriness. There are plenty of examples from reputable sources on that.
> 
> 
> FStoppers
> ...


You need to read better, I have underlined and put in bold the important bit. At 100 percent for a higher mp sensor means more enlargement, enlarge anything more and you get less dof and more camera movement. That is the only difference between a 24mp sensor image and a 50mp image both viewed at 100%, the 50mp image is over twice the size of the 24mp image, view them at the same actual size and any sharpness is the same given the same sensor size and camera settings.

The caveat is the key, same size image, same sized blur.


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## Michael Clark (May 18, 2020)

Trey T said:


> You have a lot great gears bro. I would love to see your lens collection



Lenses? Who's got any money left for buying lenses?


----------



## Starting out EOS R (May 18, 2020)

David - Sydney said:


> Well, I did and on 21 Feb as well in Australia! It is fully refundable if I don't make a purchase at time of release.
> Basically, I had a big trip planned with departure on 3-July. Clearly all cancelled now but given the expected release date in time for the Olympics then I could have just got it before the trip.
> 
> I had planned to move to RF eventually and since Canon Australia now has a 5 year warranty on lens/bodies, I have also purchased a RF70-200mm at a one-time 15% discount (and avoid possible negative exchange rate). A few months wouldn't make a big difference for me. I don't need a R5 but it would be more than good enough to prise my 5Div from my kit. Weight/size is(was) important as I traveled often with tricky flight weight/size restrictions. I am still concerned about it being too small as the 5Div is just right for my hands. A grip may be worthwhile although I haven't used one before.
> ...


I'm embarrassed to say that I was one of the 'muppets' who reacted to the price leak after seeing it on Tech Radar. I was sceptical but in my defence, the specs of the R5 are almost on a par with the 1DX MKIII so whilst a huge disappointment, I could sort of understand it. However after thinking about this, I was being a little naive, especially after Canon had said the R5 was a 5D MKIV equivalent. Hindsight is a wonderful thing lol.

I have absolutely no idea on what the price will be. Like you, I'm incredibly lucky as my income hasn't been affected and I know what I will go up to but I'm no longer going to speculate as it's pointless as you have said. 

There have been a few comments on the size of the R5 compared to the 5D MKIV and as someone who moved from a 7D MKII to an R, I found it very easy to adapt. The weight reduction and smaller size is brilliant, especially for travelling.

I don't use a grip and have no issues with buttons being harder to access compared to the 7D and like you I recently bought an RF 70-200MM at a good discount and love how it doesn't feel unbalanced even without the grip or collar.

It looks like the R5 is a little chunkier around the grip so this should all be to the good. I think with a little use, you will love how it feels compared to the 5D MKIV.


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## Quarkcharmed (May 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> view them at the same actual size and any sharpness is the same given the same sensor size and camera settings.


Same scene shot simultaneously will be sharper on a 50mp camera than a 24mp camera, after you downsample the 50mp image to 24mp.


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## Deleted member 381342 (May 18, 2020)

neurorx said:


> For those of you using the R for sports, is there much EVF lag? Do you have to significantly change your technique?



I use my 90D for wildlife which has the faster moving subjects of sports for the most part. But I did try my Nikon z6(my mirrorless tester) and I found the EVF was ok if just a fraction of a second off, but in both high and high+ (9 fps 14bit RAW) I was getting keepers. However, the reason I am sticking to DSLR and will be replacing the 90D with a 1d body and not a R5 is the sleep. To save battery you basically back the EVF on for 5 minutes at most so it is ready and this means you can miss something while the camera wakes up and you aren't able to just set focus on target and peak every now and then. 

As a point and shoot, indoor camera, and event camera; I think mirrorless are great. It is lovely to see your exposure and have things like EYE AF to get the best out of fast primes. But for sports and especially wildlife, I am going to be sticking to DSLR for the next decade which will mean going into mirrorless on the 3rd generation of 1 series bodies and maybe 2nd gen of RF lenses.


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## Sporgon (May 18, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Same scene shot simultaneously will be sharper on a 50mp camera than a 24mp camera, after you downsample the 50mp image to 24mp.


That's true because interpolation down has a sharpening effect. So apply same (small) amount of USM to the 24 mp and they're the same again.


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## Starting out EOS R (May 18, 2020)

neurorx said:


> For those of you using the R for sports, is there much EVF lag? Do you have to significantly change your technique?


Literally yesterday I tried using my R to shoot some ducks landing on the local pond and failed miserably due to the EVF lag.

I have to say, I don't do much shooting of moving images so am not experienced in adjusting to take account of the lag. 

However my perception is that if I was a serious sports or wildlife photographer, I wouldn't use the R. A DSLR would be better as there isn't a lag. My old 7d was excellent.
I bought the R mainly for landscapes, city scapes and travel photography so taking moving images is a rare thing for me and not a deal breaker. Apart from the lag on fast FPS shooting, I love the R and cant wait for the R5.

If it can shoot 20fps, surely the EVF lag will be sorted or at least closer to instant than the R, otherwise it will be a real negative for anyone doing sports or wildlife.


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## jeanluc (May 18, 2020)

With the global economy tanked, mass unemployment and virtually no travel for the foreseeable future, if Canon overprices these things all it will mean is there will be a lot of inventory on their balance sheet.

I think it will be priced around 3500 USD, ie right in "5D" range.

Guess we will see.


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## JustUs7 (May 18, 2020)

jeanluc said:


> With the global economy tanked, mass unemployment and virtually no travel for the foreseeable future, if Canon overprices these things all it will mean is there will be a lot of inventory on their balance sheet.
> 
> I think it will be priced around 3500 USD, ie right in "5D" range.
> 
> Guess we will see.



Personally, I don’t think so, because the things you mention are known quantities, which they can factor in when they start production. Pre orders should dictate production levels.


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## koenkooi (May 18, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> Personally, I don’t think so, because the things you mention are known quantities, which they can factor in when they start production. Pre orders should dictate production levels.



I bet production has already started to build up volume for the initial sales peak.


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## unfocused (May 18, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> ...It may also depend somewhat on how much the 2020 Olympics and other major sporting events in 2020 being delayed/canceled affects sales of the 1D Mark III. If a lot of potential 1D X Mark III buyers take a pass because they don't need them in 2020 and buy R5 bodies instead, it could keep the R5 price at MSRP for longer than would otherwise be the case...



I don't see that happening. If you need a 1Dx for sports, you need a 1Dx. If there aren't any sports to shoot, then you don't need to buy anything. An R5 is not going to be a suitable substitute and sports shooters won't have extra cash sitting around to buy a new body just to play with it.


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## unfocused (May 18, 2020)

jeanluc said:


> With the global economy tanked, mass unemployment and virtually no travel for the foreseeable future, if Canon overprices these things all it will mean is there will be a lot of inventory on their balance sheet...



Except that the target market is a market that has been least affected by the global pandemic. Travel will resume shortly and most of the unemployed are working stiffs that were never going to buy one anyway. The bulk of the market these days comes from enthusiasts with disposable income who are not as impacted by the pandemic's economic fallout. Working photographers are greatly impacted, but they probably constitute a much smaller percentage of the market than we think.


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## JustUs7 (May 18, 2020)

What I see in a lot of these price speculation threads is some variation of, “I hope the economy forces them to give these away!”

It’d be nice, but that’s not a sustainable business model. And with many factors known before any kind of mass production started, I don’t expect them to be stuck with excess supply they don’t want to carry. 

We shall see.


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## jolyonralph (May 18, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> That's true because interpolation down has a sharpening effect. So apply same (small) amount of USM to the 24 mp and they're the same again.



While the difference may not be noticable all the time, the former is *genuine* sharpness, the latter is simulated detail algorithmically generated.


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## neurorx (May 18, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Literally yesterday I tried using my R to shoot some ducks landing on the local pond and failed miserably due to the EVF lag.
> 
> I have to say, I don't do much shooting of moving images so am not experienced in adjusting to take account of the lag.
> 
> ...


Yes I am not sure what 12-20 fps would be used for if it was not sports or action of some sort.


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## unfocused (May 18, 2020)

neurorx said:


> Yes I am not sure what 12-20 fps would be used for if it was not sports or action of some sort.


However, it wouldn't be the first time a product was introduced that had a feature which turned out to be not all that useful in practice.


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## Pape (May 18, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Same scene shot simultaneously will be sharper on a 50mp camera than a 24mp camera, after you downsample the 50mp image to 24mp.


I got crazy thought ,how we even know there is different sensors.
Could be just one new generation sensor, that 84mpixel they auto downsample it for R5 45mpixel and for R6 20mpixel .
Lot cheaper just design one sensor  .
yeah i know this is silly idea.


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## Quarkcharmed (May 18, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> That's true because interpolation down has a sharpening effect. So apply same (small) amount of USM to the 24 mp and they're the same again.


They'll never be the same, no sharpening can recover information that's just not there in the 24mp image - i.e. the lack of information compared to 50mp image, even downsampled, is not recoverable.


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## bbasiaga (May 18, 2020)

If 6700usd is the price for this, then the R6 must be closer to 3k. We'll find out soon, and if true Canon will have replaced the cripple hammer with the {queue dramatic music} GREED HAMMER! Or is it the PIRACY HAMMER? If this is true, Canon will have found a way to answer everyone's deepest desires...the fully functional technology beast AND something for the Canon haters to complain about! Its a masterstroke!! Maybe the'll do one of those masterclasses sometime.

-Brian.


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## Hector1970 (May 18, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Except that the target market is a market that has been least affected by the global pandemic. Travel will resume shortly and most of the unemployed are working stiffs that were never going to buy one anyway. The bulk of the market these days comes from enthusiasts with disposable income who are not as impacted by the pandemic's economic fallout. Working photographers are greatly impacted, but they probably constitute a much smaller percentage of the market than we think.


I don't think travel will recover for a good while yet. If countries bring in 14 days quarantine for visitors they will be very little holiday travel. People will be slow to book holidays in the next 12 months. Refunds from airlines for cancelled flights have been a big issue. If social distancing is required on aeroplanes the price of flights will rocket. If the second wave is not as bad as the first there will be greater confidence. I'd say alot of the enthusiasts with disposable income are nervous about that disposable income. Anyone self-employed or running small business's have an uncertain future. I think there will be a general fall in the camera market with the R5 selling nothing like it could have if this hasn't all occured. There will be an initial burst of enthusiasm to buy but it will be few years before Canon see 5D III / IV type sales. I'm not even sure keeping the price below $4000 would make much difference. $4000 or $5000 is alot of money either way. Based on the specs its a camera that could have a long product cycle. Canon may want to start with a reasonably high price for the enthusiastic adopters to allow significant discount later to drag people in.


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## privatebydesign (May 18, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> They'll never be the same, no sharpening can recover information that's just not there in the 24mp image - i.e. the lack of information compared to 50mp image, even downsampled, is not recoverable.


Not necessarily true, remember the original point of contention was that a higher pixel sensor *alwyas needs* to be used with a tripod otherwise camera movement is visible. I pointed out that at same sized output the camera movement is the same so camera shake/subject movement is the same, it might be resolved better with the higher mp but not necessarily.

Picture this scenario, take a picture with a 6D II at a hand held speed and reproduction size you consider _just_ acceptable, by definition you are defining the airy disc size/blur arc angle, now do that with a 5DSr, there is no more detail in the 50mp image as there isn't even detail the lower mp sensor could resolve if higher technique had been used in this specific scenario, either subject and or camera movement limited the resolution before the lower mp count got close to being reached. That doesn't preclude the scenario you talked about, and Sporgon is very experienced with the 5DS, but it just isn't necessarily true in the specific scenario under discussion and is a confusing sidestep. Now at 100% the 5DSr sensor will have blur across more pixels, but the arc will be the same angle, but at the chosen output it will give no more resolution, just 'better defined' same angled blur.

One of the reasons I left Photo.net years ago was because I was pilloried in the medium format threads because I maintained, and illustrated/proved, nobody could tell the difference between a medium format 1GB film scan and a 4mp 1D when both were reduced to 720px in line images, and it was true, but they didn't like hearing that their magical _"medium format look"_ was utter bullsh!t.


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## analoggrotto (May 18, 2020)

sanj said:


> I am not sure about that. Buying power is at a low currently. And we may have a world wide recession.


I hope we can celebrate this thing being out of stock for months . And a short while of Sony alphafanoids leaving us in peace. lol


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## FramerMCB (May 18, 2020)

peters said:


> My guess is 4200€ including vat in germany and first deliveries in october/november.
> 
> Though for me personaly even 5000€ would be worth it. I have a variety of 6-7 cameras in use for different photo and video-tasks that ALL could be replaced with 2-3 Canon R5s so I would even make some money with the switch, even if it was 5k per R4.


I would tend to agree with your assessment here. Although it might edge even a little higher - towards 4399€ or 4499€


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## SteveC (May 18, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> One of the reasons I left Photo.net years ago was because I was pilloried in the medium format threads because I maintained, and illustrated/proved, nobody could tell the difference between a medium format 1GB film scan and a 4mp 1D when both were reduced to 720px in line images, and it was true, but they didn't like hearing that their magical _"medium format look"_ was utter bullsh!t.



In other words:

At 720px, a lot of information is missing. It doesn't matter much whether it's missing because the camera sensor didn't capture it in the first place, or because you threw it out in post processing whilst reducing the resolution to get your file size down.


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## SteveC (May 18, 2020)

analoggrotto said:


> I hope we can celebrate this thing being out of stock for months . And a short while of Sony alphafanoids leaving us in peace. lol



Naah, they'll be over here complaining that the camera is TOO awesome.


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## Sporgon (May 18, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> They'll never be the same, no sharpening can recover information that's just not there in the 24mp image - i.e. the lack of information compared to 50mp image, even downsampled, is not recoverable.


But when you reduce the output size to 24 mp the difference in resolution becomes too small to be seen !
First off, the 5DS doesn't resolve half as much more than a 24 mp sensor as people here seem to want to believe, but the native output size is considerably larger. The small, subtley of the details that the 5DS or SR are able to resolve beyond the FF 24 mp sensor can only been seen at the 5DS native output size. Reduce that in size and you lose it anyway.

I've been using 5DS cameras for a couple of years now, and the conclusion I have come to is that the huge native output size is good for strong cropping of the image and still retaining a large output size, and of course, printing huge prints. Even then, at normal viewing distances you will not see the difference between a good, steady 24mp FF shot interpolated up to the same output size.

So that extra "information" that the 5DS recorded isn't going to be seen at smaller sizes when compared with a 24 mp FF sensor, which in it's own right is pretty high "resolution" anyway.

What you do see is significant noise reduction, so you do get an improvement in "IQ", and that's the only way I can tell the difference, and of course that's why the 5DS / SR produce good image quality at high ISOs as long as you compare the same output size to lower mp cameras that are considered "good in low light".

On the issue of having to use a tripod for cameras like the 5DS, all I'd say is that _all_ cameras IQ benefits from a rock steady platform irrespective of the mp.


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## neurorx (May 18, 2020)

unfocused said:


> However, it wouldn't be the first time a product was introduced that had a feature which turned out to be not all that useful in practice.


That much is true.


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## H. Jones (May 18, 2020)

unfocused said:


> However, it wouldn't be the first time a product was introduced that had a feature which turned out to be not all that useful in practice.


This is an area where I think the camera's 8K raw with DPAF gives me *huge* hope for the stills shooting. If the camera can display a live video feed with autofocus while recording 8K raw at 30 FPS, there's no reason it shouldn't be able to shoot raw 45 megapixel images at 20 FPS with no delay or loss in autofocus.

That alone makes me absolutely giddy with excitement for this camera.

Another thing I'll say for that too is, I hope in mechanical shutter they briefly blackout the frame or use a continuous feed as well. I'd rather experience blackout like a DSLR than a brief incredibly irritating freezing of the frame during shutter action. Just feels more difficult to follow action when you're seeing a frozen image rather than just a brief flicker of black.


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## usern4cr (May 18, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> Another thing I'll say for that too is, I hope in mechanical shutter they briefly blackout the frame or use a continuous feed as well. I'd rather experience blackout like a DSLR than a brief incredibly irritating freezing of the frame during shutter action. Just feels more difficult to follow action when you're seeing a frozen image rather than just a brief flicker of black.


You'd rather see an image flicker & blackout in the EVF than have the frame hold the last image while it runs at (mechanical) 12 fps? Wow, I'd have never thought it would be better that way, but I've never tried it either way.

If it's going at (electronic) 20fps would you still feel the same way? I'm just curious. If you've had experience following action both ways then I find that kind of a revelation in the way I should be thinking about the EVF. I wonder what the image bending will be at (electronic) 20 fps with fast moving subjects? I assume there should be little to no bending with a mechanical shutter, right?


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## Dexter75 (May 18, 2020)

The R5 will be at least $5k. Anyone who thiks it’s launching at the same price the 5DIV with half the specs did FOUR YEARS AGO is dreaming.


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## usern4cr (May 18, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> The R5 will be at least $5k. Anyone who thiks it’s launching at the same price the 5DIV with half the specs did FOUR YEARS AGO is dreaming.


We all have our opinions. No need to be insulting.
Go ahead and expect at least $5K.
I'll go ahead and expect $3 to $3.5K.
Who cares?
Neither of us know.
But we can both be civil.


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## brad-man (May 18, 2020)

$3.5k - $4k. Just sayin...


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## privatebydesign (May 18, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> I've been using 5DS cameras for a couple of years now, and the conclusion I have come to is that the huge native output size is good for strong cropping of the image and still retaining a large output size, and of course, printing huge prints. Even then, at normal viewing distances you will not see the difference between a good, steady 24mp FF shot interpolated up to the same output size.



Exactly, much though we might like to refuse to accept that fact when people actually do the tests it is proven to be true.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-5ds-print-performance/

Bottom line, nothing beats content...


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## sanj (May 19, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> The R5 will be at least $5k. Anyone who thiks it’s launching at the same price the 5DIV with half the specs did FOUR YEARS AGO is dreaming.


Time will tell my friend.


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## MinoltaSRT101 (May 19, 2020)

Any talk of pricing of the R5 is completely speculative. My speculation is that Canon will price the R5 at $5k, but offer a $500 to $1,000 rebate until the pandemic restrictions abate. I think that temporary price point will help establish the R5 market share and still set the long term price at a point that acknowledges the significant advancement in specs that the R5 represents.


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## shawn (May 19, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> The R5 will be at least $5k. Anyone who thiks it’s launching at the same price the 5DIV with half the specs did FOUR YEARS AGO is dreaming.


People seem to think that the video specs mean Canon is trying to move upmarket, but I don't think that is the case at all. In fact I think it's the exact opposite. They're trying to draw in more downmarket customers who might be on the fence about a variety of cameras by tempting them to spend a little more for the improved video specs. If they price it too high they'll be out of reach to a lot of these downmarket customers. $5,000 is way too high, I actually expect this camera to be cheaper than the 5D IV to improve its attainability.


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## unfocused (May 19, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> This is an area where I think the camera's 8K raw with DPAF gives me *huge* hope for the stills shooting. If the camera can display a live video feed with autofocus while recording 8K raw at 30 FPS, there's no reason it shouldn't be able to shoot raw 45 megapixel images at 20 FPS with no delay or loss in autofocus...



I wouldn't make that assumption. There is a significant difference between focusing for video and focusing for stills, especially when trying to follow action.


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## SecureGSM (May 19, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Not necessarily true, remember the original point of contention was that a higher pixel sensor *alwyas needs* to be used with a tripod otherwise camera movement is visible. I pointed out that at same sized output the camera movement is the same so camera shake/subject movement is the same, it might be resolved better with the higher mp but not necessarily.
> 
> Picture this scenario, take a picture with a 6D II at a hand held speed and reproduction size you consider _just_ acceptable, by definition you are defining the airy disc size/blur arc angle, now do that with a 5DSr, there is no more detail in the 50mp image as there isn't even detail the lower mp sensor could resolve if higher technique had been used in this specific scenario, either subject and or camera movement limited the resolution before the lower mp count got close to being reached. That doesn't preclude the scenario you talked about, and Sporgon is very experienced with the 5DS, but it just isn't necessarily true in the specific scenario under discussion and is a confusing sidestep. Now at 100% the 5DSr sensor will have blur across more pixels, but the arc will be the same angle, but at the chosen output it will give no more resolution, just 'better defined' same angled blur.
> 
> One of the reasons I left Photo.net years ago was because I was pilloried in the medium format threads because I maintained, and illustrated/proved, nobody could tell the difference between a medium format 1GB film scan and a 4mp 1D when both were reduced to 720px in line images, and it was true, but they didn't like hearing that their magical _"medium format look"_ was utter bullsh!t.


++++ nobody could tell the difference between a medium format 1GB film scan and a 4mp 1D when both were reduced to 720px in line images, and it was true, but they didn't like hearing that their magical _"medium format look"_ was utter bullsh!t.

A.M.: oh, that’s heresy. how dare you!


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## privatebydesign (May 19, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> ++++ nobody could tell the difference between a medium format 1GB film scan and a 4mp 1D when both were reduced to 720px in line images, and it was true, but they didn't like hearing that their magical _"medium format look"_ was utter bullsh!t.
> 
> A.M.: oh, that’s heresy. how dare you!


 They did drum me out because of it, but I really didn't care!


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## H. Jones (May 19, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> You'd rather see an image flicker & blackout in the EVF than have the frame hold the last image while it runs at (mechanical) 12 fps? Wow, I'd have never thought it would be better that way, but I've never tried it either way.
> 
> If it's going at (electronic) 20fps would you still feel the same way? I'm just curious. If you've had experience following action both ways then I find that kind of a revelation in the way I should be thinking about the EVF. I wonder what the image bending will be at (electronic) 20 fps with fast moving subjects? I assume there should be little to no bending with a mechanical shutter, right?



So I've tried a little bit of everything since I normally use 1D cameras, use an EOS R at my day job, and have tried out the A9. Anytime the EOS R freezes the frame between shots, it just feels really unnatural to me and it honestly throws me off. It makes everything into a bit of a slideshow effect where I find my muscle memory is slightly overreacting because the image view is still showing where things were after I've already moved, versus not showing anything and letting me assume motion. It's been a big annoyance to me on the EOS R. I know this is a hugely personal preference and some may not feel the same, so this is an area where I'd appreciate a user setting to decide.

In regards to the 20 FPS electronic, I'd prefer it to work like the A9's 20 FPS. Nothing changes or slows in the viewfinder when you take a photo except for a white box around the frame. As much I did not like the A9 for other reasons, I'd say this is the best-case scenario, since having a nonstop live feed of your subject is the absolute easiest way to track your subject.

You are right though, the EOS R has a lot of warping in electronic shutter, but I hope the 20 FPS of the EOS R means they have a much faster sensor readout with less warping. Most of the assignments I do at my day job are slow-paced and I've been able to use the EOS R's silent shutter when I really need to, but most of the time I use the mechanical shutter anyway to save me from losing any images to bad warping with sudden movements.


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I don't see that happening. If you need a 1Dx for sports, you need a 1Dx. If there aren't any sports to shoot, then you don't need to buy anything. An R5 is not going to be a suitable substitute and sports shooters won't have extra cash sitting around to buy a new body just to play with it.



Maybe, maybe not. Until we're able to test the R5, no one really know for sure. Until then it's all conjecture.

I do know at least a few sports shooters who would love to have the Live View capabilities of the 1D X Mark III (because they feel they are superior to the PDAF AF system used with OVF shooting) while using an EVF. If the R5 offers that, it will be much better suited for sports than you are assuming.


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## x4dow (May 19, 2020)

people that are assuming this camera will be 6000+ because its "better than cinema cameras/wont canibalise C100/C200/etc" are forgetting the likelyhood of this camera doing 4k with line skipping and pixel binning (terrible detail/moire/iso performance at 4k). I suspect the 8k on this camera will look great, but the 4k will likely line skip (at least at 60/120p) and look terrible in comparison with the competition.

For me, as long as the 4k120 on this looks better than the sony's hd120p, i'm happy. I can live with a little moire and slight lack of sharpness.

Because the camera will likely not full readout and downsample the whole sensor into 4k (remember, they only said "no crop", if was 8k downsampled to 4k , they would have said "full sensor readout" instead of just "no crop"), this camera will be justified to be priced around 3800-4500 IMO.

I would guess that the R5 will be the "A7R" and that the R6, even if only does 4k60, will likely do so with full sensor readout and downsampling like the 1dx, making it actually the better video camera if you plan to shoot 4k24p and 4k60p. I would also not be surprised to see 5.5k raw on it (assuming it has the 20mp sensor rumored or potentially the 1dx sensor)


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> You'd rather see an image flicker & blackout in the EVF than have the frame hold the last image while it runs at (mechanical) 12 fps? Wow, I'd have never thought it would be better that way, but I've never tried it either way.
> 
> If it's going at (electronic) 20fps would you still feel the same way? I'm just curious. If you've had experience following action both ways then I find that kind of a revelation in the way I should be thinking about the EVF. I wonder what the image bending will be at (electronic) 20 fps with fast moving subjects? I assume there should be little to no bending with a mechanical shutter, right?



That all depends on the sensor's readout speed compared to the shutter curtains' transit time.

Presumably a sensor that can record the video frame rates this thing has been confirmed by Canon to be capable of will have faster readout than anything we've seen to date in the still/hybrid market space.

On the other hand, 12 fps mechanical allows about 80 milliseconds (1/12 second) per frame. Of course a large part of that will be to reset the second shutter curtain, allow the sensor to be exposed for AF/metering between each frame, reset the first curtain, etc. The fastest full frame DSLRs from Canon have had shutter curtain transit times in the 2.5-3 millisecond range. The slower entry level DSLRs have transit times around 4 milliseconds (to cover the shorter sensor height). One can probably safely assume the mechanical shutter curtains will not be much, if any slower, than the latest FF DSLRs.

So we'll just have to wait and see.


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I wouldn't make that assumption. There is a significant difference between focusing for video and focusing for stills, especially when trying to follow action.



Yet you're making an awful big assumption that the R5 won't have similar AF capability to what the 1D X Mark III in Live View has already demonstrated.


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> In regards to the 20 FPS electronic, I'd prefer it to work like the A9's 20 FPS. Nothing changes or slows in the viewfinder when you take a photo except for a white box around the frame. As much I did not like the A9 for other reasons, I'd say this is the best-case scenario, since having a nonstop live feed of your subject is the absolute easiest way to track your subject.



That's the way the 1D X Mark III does it in Live View. The screen shows a continuous video feed with no freeze or blackout. The only way to tell images are being captured is to see the buffer number dropping or the image file number ascending.


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Except that the target market is a market that has been least affected by the global pandemic. Travel will resume shortly and most of the unemployed are working stiffs that were never going to buy one anyway. The bulk of the market these days comes from enthusiasts with disposable income who are not as impacted by the pandemic's economic fallout. Working photographers are greatly impacted, but they probably constitute a much smaller percentage of the market than we think.



The big question mark is when will governments make it possible for travel enthusiasts to plan trips in confidence that they will actually be allowed to take those trips? Even if they can afford such trips, things such as automatic 14-day quarantines and inflexible airline refund policies will cause a large number of such folks to take a wait-and-see approach to resuming travel. No one wants to be halfway around the world from home when a localized/regional virus flareup strands them there for weeks.

As for working photographers, even if they are only 20% of the market for the R5 (and I think that is a bit low - pretty much everyone I know who uses a 5D Mark IV generates at least some income from using it and most generate a significant portion of their income from photography), that's a considerable amount of revenue Canon won't be seeing for quite a long while to offset the R&D and other overall program costs.


----------



## Joules (May 19, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I wouldn't make that assumption. There is a significant difference between focusing for video and focusing for stills, especially when trying to follow action.


Could you please elaborate on that? In what way do you think AF and tracking are different on a mirrorless camera between video and stills?

I'm asking because I see no difference between them. And regardless, with the performance of the 1DX III at 10 FPS and the M6 II at 30 FPS, I have little doubt AF on the R5 will be outstanding for many applications.


----------



## x4dow (May 19, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> The big question mark is when will governments make it possible for travel enthusiasts to plan trips in confidence that they will actually be allowed to take those trips? Even if they can afford such trips, things such as automatic 14-day quarantines and inflexible airline refund policies will cause a large number of such folks to take a wait-and-see approach to resuming travel. No one wants to be halfway around the world from home when a localized/regional virus flareup strands them there for weeks.
> 
> As for working photographers, even if they are only 20% of the market for the R5 (and I think that is a bit low - pretty much everyone I know who uses a 5D Mark IV generates at least some income from using it and most generate a significant portion of their income from photography), that's a considerable amount of revenue Canon won't be seeing for quite a long while to offset the R&D and other overall program costs.



I'm a working photographer (weddings only, which is the most affected category of photography) and I plan in buying 1 or 2 R5. 

Real pros have money set aside for equipment and upgrades. Which is the main target of this camera


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## x4dow (May 19, 2020)

Joules said:


> Could you please elaborate on that? In what way do you think AF and tracking are different on a mirrorless camera between video and stills?
> 
> I'm asking because I see no difference between them. And regardless, with the performance of the 1DX III at 10 FPS and the M6 II at 30 FPS, I have little doubt AF on the R5 will be outstanding for many applications.



There's a massive difference between video and stills AF. 
Video is designed to follow with smooth acelerations and decelarations, while stills afc burst is always at full speed hunting around and releasing the shutter everytime its confirmed focus. 2 completely different behaviours.


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## Joules (May 19, 2020)

x4dow said:


> Real pros have money set aside for equipment and upgrades. Which is the main target of this camera


Real pros are people. And they can be in a range of different situations, especially since this pandemic affects lives very differently depending on region and social environment. Even for those that do have money set aside, there are probably good arguments to be made for reserving that for another purpose.

Also, weddings aren't the only thing hit. Sports, theater, Events, it is all affected. The current generation of gear still covers a lot of those scenarios just fine so I doubt all real pros are equally as enthusiastic about purchasing an R5 or R6.

We've seen the arguments before that Canon doesn't just care about professionals and that enthusiasts are likely also a very big chunk of buyers. I would assume that in these times they are the ones most likely to still get an R5.


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## x4dow (May 19, 2020)

Joules said:


> Real pros are people. And they can be in a range of different situations, especially since this pandemic affects lives very differently depending on region and social environment. Even for those that do have money set aside, there are probably good arguments to be made for reserving that for another purpose.
> 
> Also, weddings aren't the only thing hit. Sports, theater, Events, it is all affected. The current generation of gear still covers a lot of those scenarios just fine so I doubt all real pros are equally as enthusiastic about purchasing an R5 or R6.
> 
> We've seen the arguments before that Canon doesn't just care about professionals and that enthusiasts are likely also a very big chunk of buyers. I would assume that in these times they are the ones most likely to still get an R5.



Sports shooters work for agencies which supply the equipment such as getty, reuteurs etc


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## Joules (May 19, 2020)

x4dow said:


> There's a massive difference between video and stills AF.
> Video is designed to follow with smooth acelerations and decelarations, while stills afc burst is always at full speed hunting around and releasing the shutter everytime its confirmed focus. 2 completely different behaviours.


Do you mean that they are different because focus pull is slower to appear more smoothly in video mode? I agree with that, but it has nothing to do with the way the AF systems works or the quality of focus it achieves.

The way I see it, in both cases DPAF is used to determine depth information and image data is used for analyses of position and relative motion of subjects. AF may not have to be confirmed for every frame in video unlike stills. But the principles for acquiring the information that focus is based in should be the same. Else that appears highly redundant to me.


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## x4dow (May 19, 2020)

Joules said:


> Do you mean that they are different because focus pull is slower to appear more smoothly in video mode? I agree with that, but it has nothing to do with the way the AF systems works or the quality of focus it achieves.
> 
> The way I see it, in both cases DPAF is used to determine depth information and image data is used for analyses of position and relative motion of subjects. AF may not have to be confirmed for every frame in video unlike stills. But the principles for acquiring the information that focus is based in should be the same. Else that appears highly redundant to me.


 Video would look terrible with photography continuous af engaged. 
There is softwarewise potential to do that (if your plan is to get 8k dci raw stills). But that AF mode will not be available in movie mode and if was, you'd be getiing 8kdci images, not full sensor 3:2. 

Note that No1 confirmed the sensor is 45MP. It could be more. Sonys ixm409 is a 56MP sensor that does 8kdci raw and capable of 120p 4k dci (line skipping). 

It wouldn't surprise me if this sensor was bigger than 45MP and pixel bin for 8k and line skip too for 4k, making it not "ideal" for video (moire, etc)


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

x4dow said:


> I'm a working photographer (weddings only, which is the most affected category of photography) and I plan in buying 1 or 2 R5.
> 
> Real pros have money set aside for equipment and upgrades. Which is the main target of this camera



Real business managers adapt to changing market conditions and may not spend money they've planned, even when they already have it set aside and could.

How many weddings do you have booked in 2020? How many of your 2020 bookings have cancelled in the past two months? How are your 2021 bookings at this point compared to your 2020 bookings this time last year? How many of them are smaller than what you shot in 2019, 2018, etc?

If you're like most, you may buy one R5 this year, but in normal times you would have bought two without even thinking that hard about it.

I'll also disagree that weddings are the most affected category. Sports has ground to a total halt. Corporate events have ground to a total halt. Weddings have slowed a LOT, but they haven't totally disappeared.


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## x4dow (May 19, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Real business managers adapt to changing market conditions and may not spend money the've planned, even when they could.
> 
> How many weddings do you have booked in 2020? How many of your 2020 bookings have cancelled in the past two months? How are your 2021 bookings at this point compared to your 2020 bookings this time last year? How many of them are smaller than what you shot in 2019, 2018, etc?
> 
> ...



You are probably right. All my affected weddings were rescheduled, not cancelled. Sure I might lose some 2021 out of being booked now with rescheduled wedding for those dates, but my 2021 will still be near twice as busy as 2019 was. I will just have very little turnover this year, but next will be maniac


----------



## Starting out EOS R (May 19, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> So I've tried a little bit of everything since I normally use 1D cameras, use an EOS R at my day job, and have tried out the A9. Anytime the EOS R freezes the frame between shots, it just feels really unnatural to me and it honestly throws me off. It makes everything into a bit of a slideshow effect where I find my muscle memory is slightly overreacting because the image view is still showing where things were after I've already moved, versus not showing anything and letting me assume motion. It's been a big annoyance to me on the EOS R. I know this is a hugely personal preference and some may not feel the same, so this is an area where I'd appreciate a user setting to decide.
> 
> In regards to the 20 FPS electronic, I'd prefer it to work like the A9's 20 FPS. Nothing changes or slows in the viewfinder when you take a photo except for a white box around the frame. As much I did not like the A9 for other reasons, I'd say this is the best-case scenario, since having a nonstop live feed of your subject is the absolute easiest way to track your subject.
> 
> You are right though, the EOS R has a lot of warping in electronic shutter, but I hope the 20 FPS of the EOS R means they have a much faster sensor readout with less warping. Most of the assignments I do at my day job are slow-paced and I've been able to use the EOS R's silent shutter when I really need to, but most of the time I use the mechanical shutter anyway to save me from losing any images to bad warping with sudden movements.


I feel like such a new boy reading all these comments but I'm glad it's not just me finding it hard to follow action through the R's EVF. Your experience with the A9 sounds like a good option as at least you can still see the subject and keep it centred. I've never used an A9 or any Sony for that matter but know currently they seem to be pretty good, subject to the R5 at least.

I'm not a pro & I'll admit I'm still learning about the different modes, mechanical, live, silent etc as I mainly do landscapes & Travel so don't shoot many action shots. 

I'd love someone to do a video tutorial about this showing what the EVF looks like in different modes, not necessarily solutions but just what it looks like as what I see may not be the same as you or other people. Obviously details on how they deal with it would be great.

I really hope the R5 has a better flow to the EVF, otherwise it won't matter what FPS it has.


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## Joules (May 19, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> 'Id love someone to do a video tutorial about this showing what the EVF looks like in different modes, not necessarily solutions but just what it looks like as what I see may not be the same as you or other people. Obviously details on how they deal with it would be great.


If you can stand his attitude, Jared Polin did a good comparison of the 1DX III and A9:






If Canon just use the 1DX III LiveView as their EVF, it should be a very big upgrade over the R.


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

x4dow said:


> Sports shooters work for agencies which supply the equipment such as getty, reuteurs etc



Maybe ten years ago. Most of Getty's sports products these days are shot by freelancers providing their own equipment and making pennies on the dollar compared to when they were staff photographers and had gear provided. Ditto with Reuters news and sports. The AP now has one staff photographer in most (but not all) U.S. States where a decade ago they had about one staffer per million residents of most states.


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## Starting out EOS R (May 19, 2020)

Joules said:


> If you can stand his attitude, Jared Polin did a good comparison of the 1DX III and A9:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheers, I did watch this but didn't equate it to the EVF lag on the R but the idea of using the live view feed as an EVF would make sense. Jared is an acquired taste but can be entertaining.
The video made me smile as it's a good job he works out to be able to hold both those cameras out front.


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

x4dow said:


> You are probably right. All my affected weddings were rescheduled, not cancelled. Sure I might lose some 2021 out of being booked now with rescheduled wedding for those dates, but my 2021 will still be near twice as busy as 2019 was. I will just have very little turnover this year, but next will be maniac



... assuming the Rona is no longer a factor. What if it sticks around for about 18 months like the Spanish Flu did a century ago? A lot of your 2020 bookings delayed to 2021 will opt for vastly scaled down weddings, and your original 2021 bookings will wait until 2022.

In some ways, we'll never return to the "normal" of before COVID-19, just like we never returned to pre-9/11/2001 "normal".


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## HarryFilm (May 19, 2020)

Just an UPDATED ESTIMATED RECORDING TIME TABLE for the Canon R5 to correct an earlier post of mine where I wrongly multiplied using bytes instead of bits (Oooops! My Bad!) This is for the Canon R5 camera for DCI 8K video recording at FULL Uncompressed RAW, 3:1 Compressed RAW and 5:1 Compressed RAW recording formats:

DCI 8K FULL RAW video at 10 Bits per colour channel (4:4:4 colour sampling at 30 bit colour) is 8192 by 4320 pixels and 35,389,440 pixels (35.38 megapixels) and 132,710,400 bytes per video frame = 3,981,312,000 bytes per second at 30 fps FULL RAW (or 3.98 Gigabytes per second!) or 238,878,720,000 bytes per minute (238.87 gigabytes per minute) of FULL uncompressed RAW recording time.

Size of CF Express Cards in Gigabytes and Calculated RAW Recording Times in minutes and seconds at 10 bits per RGB/YCbCr colour channel aka 30 bit colour:

FULL RAW using typical mathematically lossless bit-wise 2:1 LZW compression:

128 gigabytes = 50 sec
256 gigabytes = 1 min 40 sec
512 gigabytes = 3 min 20 sec

Compressed 3:1 Ratio RAW in minutes and seconds:
(algorithms used are variable but visually lossless which means the video looks really good)

128 gigabytes = 3 min 45 sec
256 gigabytes = 7 min 30 sec
512 gigabytes = 15 minutes

Compressed 5:1 Ratio RAW in minutes and seconds:
(algorithms used are variable but visually lossless which means the video looks really good)

128 gigabytes = 6 min 5 sec
256 gigabytes = 12 min 10 sec
512 gigabytes = 24 min 20 sec at DCI 8K or 98 minutes at DCI 4K at 24 to 30 fps or about 49 minutes at 4K 60fps!

If you use an external drive using a typical video-grade Four Terabyte drive, you will get about 195 minutes or 3 and a quarter hours of video at 30 fps 8K using 5:1 RAW.

I should note these are worst-case scenarios, so I expect there SHOULD BE a leeway of an extra 25% on top of the above times when filming typical action or sports video where detail is fairly limited and where motion tends to be linear.

For still images at the LIKELY 45 megapixels that will be used for this camera in stills mode, we can expect to store about about 10,500+ still images (3:2 aspect ratio) on a single 128 Gigabyte CF express card at the typical 5:1 compression ratio of the HEIF image file format.

Sooooooo, it looks like Canon has done AN OUTSTANDING JOB on FULL RAW and COMPRESSED RAW recording times for the larger 256 and 512 gigabyte CF-Express cards!

If you record only DCI 4K video multiply ALL of the above times BY FOUR !!!!!

AND .... I should note that if you use 4:2:2 H.265 DCI 8K (8192 x 4320 pixels) interframe compressed video recording, you SHOULD be able to get a fairly high record time using 50 to 150 Group-of-Frame (GOP) settings which means on a 128 gigabyte CF-Express card you should be able to get about 20 minutes minimum at the high quality pro-level video settings.

For the 512 Gigabyte cards, that's at least 50 minutes of very high quality 30 fps H.265 DCI 8K video and up to 200 minutes of 30 fps DCI 4k video or 100 minutes of 60 fps DCI 4K video and somewhere between 35 to 50 minutes of 4K at 120 fps (120 fps is very hard to compress in real time!).

That's pretty good as DCI 8K video record times for full 8192 by 4320 pixel video resolution and DCI 4K 4096 by 2160 pixel video! I should note though that H.265 is rather finicky on CONTENT DETAIL and EXCESSIVE MOTION, so your recording time mileage may vary! DO EXPECT A PLUS OR MINUS 25% leeway on either side of my above estimated 8K video record times!

This will get Sony's Goat to No End !!!

v


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## HarryFilm (May 19, 2020)

AND .... My guess on Canon R5 body-only pricing is $3949 US ($5509 Canadian or 3615 Euros) 

That's fine with us! We'll buy a few anyways for the interns!

V


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## Quarkcharmed (May 19, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Picture this scenario, take a picture with a 6D II at a hand held speed and reproduction size you consider _just_ acceptable, by definition you are defining the airy disc size/blur arc angle, now do that with a 5DSr, there is no more detail in the 50mp image as there isn't even detail the lower mp sensor could resolve



5DSr will always resolve better detail even in a shaky image. The only caveat is that the resolved detail is in the blur so not very usable.
But a 50mp camera is designed for tripod use, or very good IS, or very high shutter speeds. Otherwise, as above, all the additional resolving power goes to the motion blur.



privatebydesign said:


> One of the reasons I left Photo.net years ago was because I was pilloried in the medium format threads because I maintained, and illustrated/proved, nobody could tell the difference between a medium format 1GB film scan and a 4mp 1D when both were reduced to 720px in line images, and it was true, but they didn't like hearing that their magical _"medium format look"_ was utter bullsh!t.



The 'medium format look' could be BS, but the experiment with reduction to 720px seems kinda pointless to be honest. Better detail is where medium format shines. You reduce a large image to a ridiculously small size and claim there's no advantage. That sounds unfair


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## Sporgon (May 19, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> ++++ nobody could tell the difference between a medium format 1GB film scan and a 4mp 1D when both were reduced to 720px in line images, and it was true, but they didn't like hearing that their magical _"medium format look"_ was utter bullsh!t.
> 
> A.M.: oh, that’s heresy. how dare you!



I must lend Private my copy sometime


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## Quarkcharmed (May 19, 2020)

Sporgon said:


> But when you reduce the output size to 24 mp the difference in resolution becomes too small to be seen !



But in the previous message you said the 24mp image could be sharpened and brought to the level of downsampled 50->24mp image. So implicitly you acknowledged the difference is noticeable 



Sporgon said:


> So that extra "information" that the 5DS recorded isn't going to be seen at smaller sizes when compared with a 24 mp FF sensor, which in it's own right is pretty high "resolution" anyway.



Well if you downsample both to say 12mp, the difference will be negligible I suspect.
But the example was to downsample 50mp to 24mp and compare the native 24mp with 50->24mp downsampled.
If it's the same scene shot with the same lens, downsampled one will be sharper.

Whether it's worth or practical to have a 50mp camera is a totally different question.


----------



## unfocused (May 19, 2020)

Joules said:


> Could you please elaborate on that? In what way do you think AF and tracking are different on a mirrorless camera between video and stills?
> 
> I'm asking because I see no difference between them....





x4dow said:


> There's a massive difference between video and stills AF.
> Video is designed to follow with smooth acelerations and decelarations, while stills afc burst is always at full speed hunting around and releasing the shutter everytime its confirmed focus. 2 completely different behaviours.



Yes. Well said.

To elaborate from my point of view, it's all about the story being told. Video is all about the action, telling the story of what happens by building to the climax. Stills are all about the emotion. Freezing a moment in time and taking it out of the stream to examine as an individual slice of time. (Not that these two don't intersect). 

In a sports video, you want to capture the play, the reaction or other events as they occur. You are seeing the action unfold over time. 

Stills are all about stopping time. You want to capture the emotion on the player's face as she returns a serve. The joy on the face after a winning play. The frustration of a missed return. The look on the players face when he dunks the basketball, etc. etc. etc. Freezing time and getting a sharp image is different than following action and getting a smooth image that flows.

That's one reason why videos are generally shot at no more than twice the frame rate (1/60th of a second for example) while stills are shot at the highest possible shutter speed.

Thanks @x4dow for your reply. That's why I said there is a significant difference between autofocus for stills and video.


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## cayenne (May 19, 2020)

MinoltaSRT101 said:


> Any thoughts on the quickest way to get an R5 once they become available? Do I pre-order through a big national site like Adorama or a local camera store chain where I've been buying cameras and lenses for the past 7 or 8 years? My preference is generally to support local camera stores, but I would really like to get my hands on an R5 by early Fall, if possible.



Well, if you order through Adorama/B&H...you don't get charged sales tax.....which is nice...


----------



## usern4cr (May 19, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> So I've tried a little bit of everything since I normally use 1D cameras, use an EOS R at my day job, and have tried out the A9. Anytime the EOS R freezes the frame between shots, it just feels really unnatural to me and it honestly throws me off. It makes everything into a bit of a slideshow effect where I find my muscle memory is slightly overreacting because the image view is still showing where things were after I've already moved, versus not showing anything and letting me assume motion. It's been a big annoyance to me on the EOS R. I know this is a hugely personal preference and some may not feel the same, so this is an area where I'd appreciate a user setting to decide.
> 
> In regards to the 20 FPS electronic, I'd prefer it to work like the A9's 20 FPS. Nothing changes or slows in the viewfinder when you take a photo except for a white box around the frame. As much I did not like the A9 for other reasons, I'd say this is the best-case scenario, since having a nonstop live feed of your subject is the absolute easiest way to track your subject.
> 
> You are right though, the EOS R has a lot of warping in electronic shutter, but I hope the 20 FPS of the EOS R means they have a much faster sensor readout with less warping. Most of the assignments I do at my day job are slow-paced and I've been able to use the EOS R's silent shutter when I really need to, but most of the time I use the mechanical shutter anyway to save me from losing any images to bad warping with sudden movements.


OK, you've convinced me!  I never thought I'd say this, but I hope that Canon can see this post and decide to offer a *"EVF blackout: Enable/Disable"* menu option so that the EVF display either can, or can not, have a blackout between images. Some never want a blackout because they don't like flickering, but others don't like an 'old' image to linger while there is appreciable motion (like with BIF photos) and would rather just see a brief image (as soon as possible) and then not see anything until the next new image is displayed so that they can better track the action.


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## HenryL (May 19, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Well, if you order through Adorama/B&H...you don't get charged sales tax.....which is nice...


FWIW, B&H does charge sales tax, at least to Virginia residents. Depends on applicable state laws, but most now require this for all internet sales even if the vendor has no in-state presence.


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Well, if you order through Adorama/B&H...you don't get charged sales tax.....which is nice...



That depends on which state the item is shipped to. Both now charge me 8% sales tax because the Supreme Court says my state can force them to do that. Many other states have enacted similar rules. YMMV.


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## cayenne (May 19, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That's the way the 1D X Mark III does it in Live View. The screen shows a continuous video feed with no freeze or blackout. The only way to tell images are being captured is to see the buffer number dropping or the image file number ascending.


Why could they not do exactly this with the EVF?

C


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Why could they not do exactly this with the EVF?
> 
> C



Because the 1D X Mark III does not have an EVF, it has an OVF?


----------



## usern4cr (May 19, 2020)

Joules said:


> If you can stand his attitude, Jared Polin did a good comparison of the 1DX III and A9:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was amazed at the informative value of this video. Canon's DSLR in live view mode becomes essentially a mirrorless camera and tracked about equally as good as the A9, which seems to be the leader in continuous AF. That's pretty amazing. Now if you couple that with Canon's ability to also have an OVF for someone doing BIF where the instantaneous OVF allows for easier tracking of a randomly flying bird compared to the inherent delay of a EVF, then one could indeed argue that there is a strong reason to stay with the OVF.  

With that said, as someone joining in new to the Canon system (without EF legacy equipment) I will still focus on getting the R5, and hope that the continuous AF with their EVF is at least as good (or even better) than what they have shown in their latest DSLR liveview. It gives me great hope for something spectacular, but as always "time will tell". 

And thanks again, Joules, for posting this. Seldom has a video been so worthwhile to see.


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## Joules (May 19, 2020)

unfocused said:


> To elaborate from my point of view, it's all about the story being told.


No objections there. I got the impression that you suggested video and stills use different technologies to perform autofocus. And that got me curious.

The way I see it, they are technically the same. Video AF may accelerate and decelerate the the plane of focus less aggressively to give an impression of smoothness. But it still has to work with the same information and process it rapidly to keep track of a face, for example.


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## cayenne (May 19, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Because the 1D X Mark III does not have an EVF, it has an OVF?



I was speaking to the demo that Polin did...using live view....where it seems to have continuous tracking AF.....you see him holding the camera out doing this with live view.

My question was, if they can do this with live view...why can they not do it with EVF? Pretty much same tech I would guess?

With live view on the 1DX....the mirror is locked up right? So, with R5....no mirror, so rather than send this to screen on back ,could they not send it to the EVF...so that you'd have AF tracking and no blackout?

Just a thought.

C


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## Michael Clark (May 19, 2020)

cayenne said:


> I was speaking to the demo that Polin did...using live view....where it seems to have continuous tracking AF.....you see him holding the camera out doing this with live view.
> 
> My question was, if they can do this with live view...why can they not do it with EVF? Pretty much same tech I would guess?
> 
> ...



Who says they won't? 

Who says they can't?


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## Starting out EOS R (May 19, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Because the 1D X Mark III does not have an EVF, it has an OVF?


I'm sure there is a software fix that allows the EVF to show an uninterrupted live view while images are being taken. I'd be happy with this as opposed to the lag the R currently has.


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## SecureGSM (May 19, 2020)

FamilyGuy said:


> What I see in a lot of these price speculation threads is some variation of, “I hope the economy forces them to give these away!”
> 
> It’d be nice, but that’s not a sustainable business model. And with many factors known before any kind of mass production started, I don’t expect them to be stuck with excess supply they don’t want to carry.
> 
> We shall see.


with sales at around 25% YoY compared April 2020 to April 2019, Canon is certain to follow a sustainable business model. Austerity to the max, Sales strategy in overdrive mode, Revenue is the king. 

have a read:









More scary graphs of the state of the camera industry - Photo Rumors


The latest BCN sales data graph for April is out – the sales of mirrorless cameras in April were 26.1% compared to the same month last year. Last month (March) the comparison with last year was at 49.5%, and this month it was further reduced by another 50%… a shocking figure. Here is the number...




photorumors.com


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## [email protected] (May 19, 2020)

Canon could be very bold and do this for a ravishing £3500 body only - pull the rug under Sony and Nikon and causing a big stir in the pot and £3999 including the RF 24-105 F4 RF. Although I am likely to be wrong and could be well over £4000.00


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## Sporgon (May 19, 2020)

A was


Quarkcharmed said:


> But in the previous message you said the 24mp image could be sharpened and brought to the level of downsampled 50->24mp image. So implicitly you acknowledged the difference is noticeable



I think we are at cross purposes here, because sharpness is not resolution. I agreed with you that downsampling increases perceived sharpness, but you don't retain the difference in resolution between two same size sensors that are so close together in resolving ability anyway.

From my own expense experience in using FF digital cameras ranging from 12 to 50 mp since 2005 I have come to think of them as varying in output size rather than resolution. The larger the size of the image the more detail there is - due to the fact that image size and resolution are both down to numbers of pixels, unlike film where the image became progressively softer the more you enlarged it.

I wouldn't want to give the impression that I'm disappointed in the 5DS in any way - I'm not and they are a fantastic powerful and versatile tool in a relatively small, light package, and I'll be keeping mine a long time. But I am realistic about the fact that much of the time the massive amount of data is overkill.


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## Dexter75 (May 19, 2020)

shawn said:


> People seem to think that the video specs mean Canon is trying to move upmarket, but I don't think that is the case at all. In fact I think it's the exact opposite. They're trying to draw in more downmarket customers who might be on the fence about a variety of cameras by tempting them to spend a little more for the improved video specs. If they price it too high they'll be out of reach to a lot of these downmarket customers. $5,000 is way too high, I actually expect this camera to be cheaper than the 5D IV to improve its attainability.



cheap “downmarket” photographers looking at cameras don’t care about video. $5k is an absolute steal to the semi pro filmmakers who’s only other choice for 8k video is a $20k RED system. Why do you think Canon is playing up the video specs so much? It’s going to be at least $5k.The “downmarket” photographers will look more at the cheaper R6 and the even cheaper model that’s been rumored.


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## privatebydesign (May 19, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> cheap “downmarket” photographers looking at cameras don’t care about video. $5k is an absolute steal to the semi pro filmmakers who’s only other choice for 8k video is a $20k RED system. Why do you think Canon is playing up the video specs so much? It’s going to be at least $5k.The “downmarket” photographers will look more at the cheaper R6 and the even cheaper model that’s been rumored.


That is laughable, nobody is making a choice between a $40k (usable) RED system and an R5, they are completely different markets. Now people that use RED's might buy a few R5's as well for crash cams etc, but nobody shooting RED's gives a damn about any non C Canon as a primary camera. It's as fallacious as saying they could be looking at a Samsung phone instead of a RED.

Canon make an entire range of C line cameras and lenses to cater for your _"semi pro filmmakers" _none of whom *require* 8k, the R line of cameras isn't it, the C500 II is the current darling at $15,000 but used C100's can be had for peanuts but the C line has specs and prices at every point in between to satisfy anybody.


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## Pooshoes (May 20, 2020)

They'll price it competitively and try to sell some of that pricey RF glass. Thats where the money is.


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## Michael Clark (May 20, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> with sales at around 25% YoY compared April 2020 to April 2019, Canon is certain to follow a sustainable business model. Austerity to the max, Sales strategy in overdrive mode, Revenue is the king.
> 
> have a read:
> 
> http://[URL]https://photorumors.com...the-state-of-the-camera-industry/#more-121371[/URL]



Yeah, it won't matter that they are losing money on every sale. They'll make it up in volume!


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## Michael Clark (May 20, 2020)

Starting out said:


> I'm sure there is a software fix that allows the EVF to show an uninterrupted live view while images are being taken. I'd be happy with this as opposed to the lag the R currently has.



Please show me where they put the EVF in the 1D X Mark III? I can't seem to find it.

Seriously, It might not be that easy with the hardware used by the EOS R. If the processor can't handle the entire load of processing the image and providing real time video at the same time, it's not possible for any software update to give that functionality.


----------



## x4dow (May 20, 2020)

HarryFilm said:


> Just an UPDATED ESTIMATED RECORDING TIME TABLE for the Canon R5 to correct an earlier post of mine where I wrongly multiplied using bytes instead of bits (Oooops! My Bad!) This is for the Canon R5 camera for DCI 8K video recording at FULL Uncompressed RAW, 3:1 Compressed RAW and 5:1 Compressed RAW recording formats:
> 
> DCI 8K FULL RAW video at 10 Bits per colour channel (4:4:4 colour sampling at 30 bit colour) is 8192 by 4320 pixels and 35,389,440 pixels (35.38 megapixels) and 132,710,400 bytes per video frame = 3,981,312,000 bytes per second at 30 fps FULL RAW (or 3.98 Gigabytes per second!) or 238,878,720,000 bytes per minute (238.87 gigabytes per minute) of FULL uncompressed RAW recording time.
> 
> ...


dunno how you calculate 32MP (8k dci raw) being 4Gb per second when my A7R3 raws (42MP) were around 80Mb reach (and thats not 10 bit, its 14 if im not wrong) . 80x30 (30fps) woud be around 2.4Gb second. 
Also note that this camera does 8k raw internal, so no way its 4Gb second.


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## Dexter75 (May 20, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> That is laughable, nobody is making a choice between a $40k (usable) RED system and an R5, they are completely different markets. Now people that use RED's might buy a few R5's as well for crash cams etc, but nobody shooting RED's gives a damn about any non C Canon as a primary camera. It's as fallacious as saying they could be looking at a Samsung phone instead of a RED.
> 
> Canon make an entire range of C line cameras and lenses to cater for your _"semi pro filmmakers" _none of whom *require* 8k, the R line of cameras isn't it, the C500 II is the current darling at $15,000 but used C100's can be had for peanuts but the C line has specs and prices at every point in between to satisfy anybody.



really? Go look at how many semi pro and pro filmmakers gobbled up the 5D series DSLRs. A TON. A Red Monstro is $54k, only 35 megapixels and it’s sensor is alightly larger than the one in the R5. You don’t think filmmakers will jump all over a $5k camera that shoots 8k and 4K 120p with a 36x24 sensor and fantastic RF lenses? Please. I’m willing to bet more filmmakers buy the R5 than actual photographers, at least the first 6 months after launch. All the best goodies in the R5 are on the video side and Canon is clearly marketing it to videographers.


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## privatebydesign (May 20, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> really? Go look at how many semi pro and pro filmmakers gobbled up the 5D series DSLRs. A TON.


The 5D offered something almost unique, a comparatively massive sensor that gave real world image benefits and looks even when viewed at small sizes, 8k doesn't do that so your comparison is nonsensical.

Back then people would make do with any limitation to get the sensor size, now people don't need to do without AF, zebras, false colors, waveforms, etc etc and those tools make much more impact on their creative endeavor than shooting 8k vs 4k.

Back then those semi pro and pro filmmakers didn't have the options of the C line that they do now let alone all the other video camera options like Blackmagic, secondhand RED's, heck I've even seen pre rental ARRI's for very affordable money.


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## privatebydesign (May 20, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> really? Go look at how many semi pro and pro filmmakers gobbled up the 5D series DSLRs. A TON. A Red Monstro is $54k, only 35 megapixels and it’s sensor is alightly larger than the one in the R5. You don’t think filmmakers will jump all over a $5k camera that shoots 8k and 4K 120p with a 36x24 sensor and fantastic RF lenses? Please. I’m willing to bet more filmmakers buy the R5 than actual photographers, at least the first 6 months after launch. All the best goodies in the R5 are on the video side and Canon is clearly marketing it to videographers.


That wasn't my point! My point was nobody who is seriously in the market for a RED Monstro is going to drop that to get an R5. Sure lots of videographers will get R5's, though they will inevitably realize the MILC format still isn't optimized for them and there is a reason real video cameras aren't built like that and have better CODEC's, recording options, and I/O.


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## x4dow (May 20, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> The 5D offered something almost unique, a comparatively massive sensor that gave real world image benefits and looks even when viewed at small sizes, 8k doesn't do that so your comparison is nonsensical.
> 
> Back then people would make do with any limitation to get the sensor size, now people don't need to do without AF, zebras, false colors, waveforms, etc etc and those tools make much more impact on their creative endeavor than shooting 8k vs 4k.
> 
> Back then those semi pro and pro filmmakers didn't have the options of the C line that they do now let alone all the other video camera options like Blackmagic, secondhand RED's, heck I've even seen pre rental ARRI's for very affordable money.


no one on the market for a red is going to buy a R5 that lineskips on 4K and has 10 stops DR. people that buy red want things like high frame rates with full sensor readout, 15+ stops DR etc


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## Dexter75 (May 20, 2020)

x4dow said:


> no one on the market for a red is going to buy a R5 that lineskips on 4K and has 10 stops DR. people that buy red want things like high frame rates with full sensor readout, 15+ stops DR etc



and you know this about the R5 how? Troll...


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## x4dow (May 20, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> and you know this about the R5 how? Troll...


you expect the R5 to READ the sensor at 8k dci 120fps (reading time of less than 8ms) ?
here;'s an example of the output options of sensors.
This is a sony imx409 (able to do the same as the announced R5 specs so far)
The R5 will not have a sensor with 8k120p reading mode. if did, it would be able to do 8k120p raw
The 4k120p will not be Downsampled from 8k capture. thats not just a CPU limitation, its a sensor limitation.
In the sensor below, there's options for 8k 30, 8k 60 (upscaled from 8208x2160, just like the Sony fs700 upscales 1920x540 when shooting 480p or 1920x270 when 960p) 
4k60, 4k120 and hd240p (resampling from 3020x1006)

The 4k60/4k120 options in the sensor below are reading a 4112x2168 signal from the sensor (it can be crop, or line skipping/bining without crop).


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## HarryFilm (May 20, 2020)

x4dow said:


> dunno how you calculate 32MP (8k dci raw) being 4Gb per second when my A7R3 raws (42MP) were around 80Mb reach (and thats not 10 bit, its 14 if im not wrong) . 80x30 (30fps) woud be around 2.4Gb second.
> Also note that this camera does 8k raw internal, so no way its 4Gb second.




DCI 8k video is 8192 by 4320 pixels or a total of 35,389,440 Pixels. At 10 bits per colour channel or 30 bit RGB/YCbCr colour per pixel (1.25 bytes per colour channel) = 132,710,400 bytes (131 megabytes per frame). At 30 frames per second that is 3,981,312,000 bytes or 3.98 Gigabytes per second or 238,878,720,000 bytes per minute (238.87 gigabytes per minute)

It also depends on what type of MATHEMATICALLY LOSSLESS compression is used for RAW file format is being used. I suspect LZW for the Canon R5 as that is the easiest to implement. Again, my estimates are a WORST CASE UNCOMPRESSED SCENARIO but my math stands as previously described!

In REAL WORLD USE, that true uncompressed video frame size of 131 megabytes SHOULD be reduced to around 65 to 90 megabytes or around 2.0 to 2.5 gigabytes per second using LZW mathematically lossless RAW compression.

Soooooo, my record time estimates likely will have a positive leeway from 25% to as much as 50% more time than what was stated per each memory card size DEPENDING UPON what Canon uses for RAW compression algorithms. These calculations are WORST CASE scenarios. We won't know the actual record times until someone TRIES the R5 camera recording for real!

Since I come from an era where a Betacam SP/HD-CAM tape was only 20 minutes or 30 minutes long, I can EASILY live with these record times of a minimum 24 minutes using 5:1 compression. Since I already use a fancy 50.3 megapixel MF camera that has two internal 8 Terabyte SSD drives that is a fully RFI/EMI/RAD-hardened space-rated system, I have no need for the R5's at all so they will go to the interns once the parent company buys a few!


V


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## Starting out EOS R (May 20, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Please show me where they put the EVF in the 1D X Mark III? I can't seem to find it.
> 
> Seriously, It might not be that easy with the hardware used by the EOS R. If the processor can't handle the entire load of processing the image and providing real time video at the same time, it's not possible for any software update to give that functionality.


Lol, interesting idea but obviously physically impossible.  I think Jared Polin was using the live view feed in his video.

I was trying to say that if the live view feed could be diverted to the EVF during high FPS bursts, that would help? Im not an expert but maybe as you say, this isn't possible. I was thinking aloud as they say and maybe talking out of my a**se. 

Hopefully Canon have or will develop a way to help the EVF have little or no lag, otherwise it will mean the 12 fps performance will be worthless in the R5?


----------



## Michael Clark (May 20, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> Lol, interesting idea but obviously physically impossible.  I think Jared Polin was using the live view feed in his video.
> 
> I was trying to say that if the live view feed could be diverted to the EVF during high FPS bursts, that would help? Im not an expert but maybe as you say, this isn't possible. I was thinking aloud as they say and maybe talking put of my a**se.
> 
> Hopefully Canon have or will develop a way to help the EVF have little or no lag, otherwise it will mean the 12 fps performance will be worthless in the R5?



They obviously have a way to do this, since sending a video signal to an LCD screen is no different than sending a video signal to a miniature LCD screen (e.g. an EVF). But just because they have demonstrated they can do it with one hardware configuration using the DiG!C X processor and the sensor in the 1D X Mark III does not mean they can do it with the hardware configuration already in the EOS R. 

Just because the Chevrolet Corvette can do 0-60 in 2.8 seconds does not mean a software update will allow the Chevrolet Spark, which currently takes 10.7 seconds to accelerate to 60 mph, to match that feat.


----------



## cayenne (May 20, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> They obviously have a way to do this, since sending a video signal to an LCD screen is no different than sending a video signal to a miniature LCD screen (e.g. an EVF). But just because they have demonstrated they can do it with one hardware configuration using the DiG!C X processor and the sensor in the 1D X Mark III does not mean they can do it with the hardware configuration already in the EOS R.
> 
> Just because the Chevrolet Corvette can do 0-60 in 2.8 seconds does not mean a software update will allow the Chevrolet Spark, which currently takes 10.7 seconds to accelerate to 60 mph, to match that feat.




Please excuse me, I"m likely missing something in this...but why are you talking about the EOS "R" and not the "R5" and its potential capabilities for sending no blackout feeds to the EVF analogous to the 1DX sending it to Live View lcd screen?

Again, maybe I missed something...this thread is a bit long after all.


C


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## Michael Clark (May 21, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Please excuse me, I"m likely missing something in this...but why are you talking about the EOS "R" and not the "R5" and its potential capabilities for sending no blackout feeds to the EVF analogous to the 1DX sending it to Live View lcd screen?
> 
> Again, maybe I missed something...this thread is a bit long after all.
> 
> ...



Because one of the comments I was replying to seemed to indicate they thought the EOS R could be updated to such performance with a firmware update.




Starting out said:


> I'm sure there is a software fix that allows the EVF to show an uninterrupted live view while images are being taken. I'd be happy with this as opposed to the lag the R currently has.


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## Starting out EOS R (May 21, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Because one of the comments I was replying to seemed to indicate they though the EOS R could be updated to such performance with a firmware update.


Lol, the written word is a wonderful thing. I actually didn't think about the R being updated, Nice idea though. I was really thinking about this being on the R5. Obviously not clear enough as having an effective lag free EVF on the R5 would be more helpful with the high FPS, otherwise it may render it pointless to have it, whereas the R FPS isn't that high any way and I dont think many people buy the R for sports or action photography so whilst a nice to have, maybe not as important.
I watched an interesting YouTube video last night with a Landscape / travel Pro who has both the R & RP and he acknowledged the same issues, saying he would be buying an R5 and would probably get rid of the R as he felt the RP(currently used to vlog / b roll) whilst having lower specs is a great back up camera being almost half the price of the R so easier to replace, with only marginally less performance.
Time will tell as to what Canon's long term line up will end up looking like and what bodies survive if any are dropped.


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## koenkooi (May 21, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> [..]
> I watched an interesting YouTube video last night with a Landscape / travel Pro who has both the R & RP and he acknowledged the same issues, saying he would be buying an R5 and would probably get rid of the R as he felt the RP(currently used to vlog / b roll) whilst having lower specs is a great back up camera being almost half the price of the R so easier to replace, with only marginally less performance.
> Time will tell as to what Canon's long term line up will end up looking like and what bodies survive if any are dropped.



Was that the Brendan van Son one?


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## Starting out EOS R (May 21, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Was that the Brendan van Son one?


It was indeed. He's an entertaining guy and seems a little more normal than some of the other YouTubers. I can see his point re keeping the RP. I'm not sure I would do the same but then again, I dont make my living from photography or Youtube.


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## Michael Clark (May 21, 2020)

Starting out EOS R said:


> It was indeed. He's an entertaining guy and seems a little more normal than some of the other YouTubers. I can see his point re keeping the RP. I'm not sure I would do the same but then again, I dont make my living from photography or Youtube.



The other reason arguing against selling an RP is that it wouldn't bring in that much money, considering anyone can buy a new one for $999 or less.


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## RBSfphoto (May 21, 2020)

Regarding pricing, a while ago a camera rep told me this, Almost every camera manufacturer figures out the price point first, then figures out what features they can afford to include for that price. The exception being Leica; they build the camera they want to build and figure out the price after the fact. I suspect that Canon set the price for this camera during the development process, and the recent pandemic and other market forces won't affect the price much. That said, my guess is it comes in around $3800, but that is only a guess.


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## Dexter75 (May 22, 2020)

x4dow said:


> you expect the R5 to READ the sensor at 8k dci 120fps (reading time of less than 8ms) ?
> here;'s an example of the output options of sensors.
> This is a sony imx409 (able to do the same as the announced R5 specs so far)
> The R5 will not have a sensor with 8k120p reading mode. if did, it would be able to do 8k120p raw
> ...



that’s all pure speculation on your part. You have no idea what sensor Canon has in the R5 and what is capable of.


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## Joules (May 22, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> that’s all pure speculation on your part. You have no idea what sensor Canon has in the R5 and what is capable of.


The argument is good though. If the R5 could read and downscale the entire sensor 120 times per second, it would have 8K RAW 120p mode. Since it doesn't, 4K 120p can't be based on the full sensor resolution. So it's skipped, cropped or binned.

That's less speculation than simply a fact. Let's keep in mind that 8K 30p or 4K 120p (and 45 MP 14 bit 20 FPS for that matter) is already an insane amount of data and Canon pulling that much from the sensor makes them the unchallenged king of throughput once this minster comes out.


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## Chris.Chapterten (May 22, 2020)

Joules said:


> The argument is good though. If the R5 could read and downscale the entire sensor 120 times per second, it would have 8K RAW 120p mode. Since it doesn't, 4K 120p can't be based on the full sensor resolution. So it's skipped, cropped or binned.
> 
> That's less speculation than simply a fact. Let's keep in mind that 8K 30p or 4K 120p (and 45 MP 14 bit 20 FPS for that matter) is already an insane amount of data and Canon pulling that much from the sensor makes them the unchallenged king of throughput once this minster comes out.


Let's just say the camera could process 8k at 120fps, could the CFexpress card even cope with that amount of data?

Also, I believe the 1DX mark iii is only 12bit in 20fps mode. I would guess the R5 will also drop its bitrate for the 20fps mode.


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## koenkooi (May 22, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Let's just say the camera could process 8k at 120fps, could the CFexpress card even cope with that amount of data?
> 
> Also, I believe the 1DX mark iii is only 12bit in 20fps mode. I would guess the R5 will also drop its bitrate for the 20fps mode.



All electronic shutter modes (stills *and* video) on the 1Dx3 max out at 12-bit.


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## koenkooi (May 22, 2020)

Joules said:


> The argument is good though. If the R5 could read and downscale the entire sensor 120 times per second, it would have 8K RAW 120p mode. Since it doesn't, 4K 120p can't be based on the full sensor resolution. So it's skipped, cropped or binned.



The sensor might able to handle it, but can the DIGIC X handle it? We can't know where the bottleneck is before we see different DIGIC/sensor combinations. 
Personally, I think it's likely that the the full sensor readout tops out at 60-ish fps, but it could very well be able to do 90fps and the DIGIC X tops out at 70fps. Or the reverse.



Joules said:


> That's less speculation than simply a fact. [..]



Since we can't actually verify it, it's not a fact.


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## Starting out EOS R (May 22, 2020)

I love reading the comments that go into massive technical detail and how everyone has a different perspective. It's so impressive how much knowledge is out there. Most of it is way outside my own knowledge base. I just take pictures end of.  I'm a simple guy and if it does what it says on the tin, great, if it doesn't and I don't need it, I dont care but if I need that feature then I'll find something that does it. Simples.

It gives me a headache if I speculate too much. Hopefully all will be announced soon so why worry now lol.

Keep up the chat's as some of it is really interesting.

Cheers


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## koch1948 (May 22, 2020)

In today's economic and limited production climate, I speculate that a marketing department might offer a new camera product for sale only with the addition of a kit lens. Furthermore, the kit might also include a card and card reader. Therefore, a rumored price may sound inflated, but it may not reflect the camera body only price. At a later date, when the manufacturer can meet the production quantity demands, they could always come back and offer the camera for sale as a camera body.


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## SteveC (May 23, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> In today's economic and limited production climate, I speculate that a marketing department might offer a new camera product for sale only with the addition of a kit lens. Furthermore, the kit might also include a card and card reader. Therefore, a rumored price may sound inflated, but it may not reflect the camera body only price. At a later date, when the manufacturer can meet the production quantity demands, they could always come back and offer the camera for sale as a camera body.



That wouldn't offend me too much as I was planning to purchase with the 24-105 L. Of course, that attitude changes if that's not one of the available kits any more! 

And of course the card and card reader sound like the CompactFlash type, not the SD type (who needs a reader for an SD card?). THAT I could skip, for now.


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## koch1948 (May 23, 2020)

SteveC said:


> That wouldn't offend me too much as I was planning to purchase with the 24-105 L. Of course, that attitude changes if that's not one of the available kits any more!
> 
> And of course the card and card reader sound like the CompactFlash type, not the SD type (who needs a reader for an SD card?). THAT I could skip, for now.


I meant to say a CFExpress card which is new, and not many people have it yet.


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## HenryL (May 23, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> In today's economic and limited production climate, I speculate that a marketing department might offer a new camera product for sale only with the addition of a kit lens. Furthermore, the kit might also include a card and card reader. Therefore, a rumored price may sound inflated, but it may not reflect the camera body only price. At a later date, when the manufacturer can meet the production quantity demands, they could always come back and offer the camera for sale as a camera body.


Interesting thoughts, but to my mind that seems backwards. Because of today's economic climate, why would they limit sales to a more expensive kit option? I'm curious on the reasoning behind that idea.

Of course, I won't speak for others, but I only need the body at the moment. Sure I'll eventually pick up RF glass, but for the time being I'll continue with the lenses already in my bag.


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## Durf (May 23, 2020)

I predicted in another thread months ago the R5 would likely be 4299.00 body only; and 4999.00 with the 24-105 f/4 IS USM kit lens....I still think I'm close (all speculation of course). This price range is a step above the R and 5D4 yet below the 1DXiii. 
Canon could probably set it at 4999.00 body only and probably sell a boat load of them knowing most will likely shoot EF lenses on it and slowly merge into the RF Lens line....where the big money for them is.
We will see.....


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## usern4cr (May 23, 2020)

SteveC said:


> That wouldn't offend me too much as I was planning to purchase with the 24-105 L. Of course, that attitude changes if that's not one of the available kits any more!
> 
> And of course the card and card reader sound like the CompactFlash type, not the SD type (who needs a reader for an SD card?). THAT I could skip, for now.


I'd be surprised if they initially only sold the body as part of a kit. How often has this ever happened with the introduction of high-end bodies? (I'm guessing not often, but I'm not 100% sure). I'd probably be OK if it happened and the ket lens was the 24-105 f4 and there was a discount price for the kit vs getting them separately.

But I'd rather they offer the kit and also offer the body alone. 

What I'd *really* like is if they offered a discount %(eg: 10%) on any single RF lens if you order it with a new R5 body.


----------



## koenkooi (May 23, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> [..]What I'd *really* like is if they offered a discount %(eg: 10%) on any single RF lens if you order it with a new R5 body.



Canon already does that. Their 'virtual' kit promotion is pretty much year round, you just need to buy a camera and lens less than 90 days apart. Here's the RF50 deal, €250 cashback on the €2299 price, so a 10.9% discount.




The virtual kit promo is very slow to update, though, the RP became eligible months after I bought it. The R5 might become eligible a lot quicker being a flagship and all.


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## Starting out EOS R (May 23, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> I'd be surprised if they initially only sold the body as part of a kit. How often has this ever happened with the introduction of high-end bodies? (I'm guessing not often, but I'm not 100% sure). I'd probably be OK if it happened and the ket lens was the 24-105 f4 and there was a discount price for the kit vs getting them separately.
> 
> But I'd rather they offer the kit and also offer the body alone.
> 
> What I'd *really* like is if they offered a discount %(eg: 10%) on any single RF lens if you order it with a new R5 body.


From reading previous threads, several contributors, including myself purchased RF glass (RF70-200MM) in April to take advantage of the Canon Lens reward, so as long as the R5 is announced and ordered before 21/07/20 that should be £255 winging it's way back. That's well over 10% discount plus the sale price reduction of the lens. The lens reward is now permanent so great news!
Only selling as a Kit is unusual, especially as this is billed as a Pro body. Im sure most Pro's and amateurs who can afford this have many existing lenses and like them, if it was only sold with the 24-105f4L, I already have that lens so it would probably mean I wouldn't buy and would wait until and if it is sold as body only.
I'm not quite sure Canon would want to restrict their potential buyers like that. But what do I know, stranger things have happened.


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## Michael Clark (May 23, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Canon already does that. Their 'virtual' kit promotion is pretty much year round, you just need to buy a camera and lens less than 90 days apart. Here's the RF50 deal, €250 cashback on the €2299 price, so a 10.9% discount.
> 
> View attachment 190553
> 
> ...



That's common in certain markets, like Europe. It's much less common in other markets, such as the U.S. Only on a very odd occasion does Canon offer rebates based on purchase of two different products in the U.S. When they do, 9 out of 10 times one of those products has to be a pro grade printer.


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## usern4cr (May 23, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That's common in certain markets, like Europe. It's much less common in other markets, such as the U.S. Only on a very odd occasion does Canon offer rebates based on purchase of two different products in the U.S. When they do, 9 out of 10 times one of those products has to be a pro grade printer.


Since I'm in the US, does this mean there's almost **NO* *chance that there would be a "Virtual Kit / Lense Reward" program for the R5 within the first 6 or so months from launch?  It would be important to know either way, so I can plan my purchase(s) accordingly. 

Also, if this plan was available, can you buy your lenses *before and after* the body purchase (as long as you're within their time restriction)?


----------



## Starting out EOS R (May 23, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Since I'm in the US, does this mean there's almost **NO* *chance that there would be a "Virtual Kit / Lense Reward" program for the R5 within the first 6 or so months from launch?  It would be important to know either way, so I can plan my purchase(s) accordingly.
> 
> Also, if this plan was available, can you buy your lenses *before and after* the body purchase (as long as you're within their time restriction)?


My understanding, is that it doesn't matter what order the purchase is made as long as the 2nd purchase is within 90 days of the 1st and the claim for the reward is submitted within 30 days after the 2nd purchase. However, this info was on the Canon UK website and the bad news, is it says the promotion is via Canon Europe so not sure if it is available in the USA. Sorry


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## unfocused (May 23, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Since I'm in the US, does this mean there's almost **NO* *chance that there would be a "Virtual Kit / Lense Reward" program for the R5 within the first 6 or so months from launch?  It would be important to know either way, so I can plan my purchase(s) accordingly.
> 
> Also, if this plan was available, can you buy your lenses *before and after* the body purchase (as long as you're within their time restriction)?


Yes. No chance. I can’t recall Canon ever offering a rebate within the first six months of release. Canon does sometimes offer rebates that are “stacked” so that the more items on the rebate that you buy the better the rebate. But I haven’t seen one for a few years. If they do, all the purchases have to be on the same receipt.
With the anticipated demand and supply chain disruptions I would not expect any bargains for a year.


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## slclick (May 24, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Yes. No chance. I can’t recall Canon ever offering a rebate within the first six months of release. Canon does sometimes offer rebates that are “stacked” so that the more items on the rebate that you buy the better the rebate. But I haven’t seen one for a few years. If they do, all the purchases have to be on the same receipt.
> With the anticipated demand and supply chain disruptions I would not expect any bargains for a year.


The best possible early bargains would be Street Prices from unadvertised Dealers through Canon Price Watch with Gordon. Only way to skirt MAP.


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## Stone (May 25, 2020)

I predicted in a previous thread the price would be over $5K and I still believe that is going to be true. I got totally roasted for it. This camera could be the greatest thing since sliced bread but I still believe Canon will overprice the body. The cost of RF lenses are already proof of that. Mirrorless tech is still evolving and this camera will most likely bested by a cheaper alternative sooner than later. As I said before, If I need a new body, I'll snatch one of these from the bargain bin probably at a 50% discount or more.


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## SecureGSM (May 25, 2020)

Stone said:


> I predicted in a previous thread the price would be over $5K and I still believe that is going to be true. I got totally roasted for it. This camera could be the greatest thing since sliced bread but I still believe Canon will overprice the body. The cost of RF lenses are already proof of that. Mirrorless tech is still evolving and this camera will most likely bested by a cheaper alternative sooner than later. As I said before, If I need a new body, I'll snatch one of these from the bargain bin probably at a 50% discount or more.


Guess what? You are going to get totally roasted in this thread as well.


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