# Bring Back Karma – NOW!



## unfocused (Mar 27, 2012)

I just spotted this on another thread:



> Gee I miss the karma system... some of the comments are just getting out of hand -_-



I too have noticed the amazingly rapid degeneration on this site since Karma was dropped. People suddenly feel the urge to insult one another, use negative stereotypes and call each other names. I'll bet if you did a word search on "fanboy" in the last week you'd find the frequency about 10 times what it used to be. 

In less than two weeks this site has gone from one of the most civil and helpful forums on the web to sinking down there with so many other sites on the web, where drive-by comments, name-calling and denigrating other users is the order of the day. 

Time to admit the experiment was a failure and bring back the Karma. Whatever its flaws. It worked.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 27, 2012)

I think that the influx of new posters and trollers is bringing it on. New members are good to have, but trollers make me disgudsted. rather than Karma, just ban them.


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## thepancakeman (Mar 27, 2012)

Actually I just started a different thread on the same topic (the rapid degeneration of this forum) but was blaming it on new traffic due to the 5D3. However I threw a mention of the karma system in there as well.

Not sure what the cause is, but we definitely seem to be in a downward spiral around here.


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## well_dunno (Mar 27, 2012)

I think the karma system also was affected by the trolls. smite rate had increased lately for posts that were basically stating opinions...

I hope it goes over when the hype cools down!..

Perhaps bringing back the karma but increase the number of posts after which one can smite or applaud could improve the situation?


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## RC (Mar 28, 2012)

Only bring back the Karma if it can be reconfigured which I understand at this point it is very limited.

If you could see what posts you got dinged or applauded for plus you were prevented from dinging the same post (and maybe poster) over and over then I might be interested

What I learned in the last several weeks was, if you post your opinion (or preference) and in a non-threating way, you will get smitten by someone.


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## mrmarks (Mar 28, 2012)

It's better to have more moderators than the so-called karma system. The karma system is open to abuse by irresponsible and immature members and can be unfair to many. Just my 2 cents


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## CrimsonBlue (Mar 28, 2012)

Maybe it's just the threads you're reading. I think people have been pretty civil now that the 5D is finally shipping. Fewer people will be frothing at the mouth about the 1DX lag time so hopefully it's smooth sailing. 

Karma never seemed to be a deterrent for idiotic behavior anyway. I for one am glad it is gone.


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## pwp (Mar 28, 2012)

Yes, now that the dust has settled on the 5D3 launch, you'll see a big drop in flaming posts, drive-by shootings and hype fueled antagonism. But it's as easy to ignore as inbox spam. You just don't give it an atom of your attention.

It's a simple matter just to skim straight past the negativity and focus on the quality contributions. It's interesting, if you look for sh.. chances are you'll find plenty of it. But if you put your attention on the gold, chances are that's what you'll see. So like life...

Since the welcome demise of the karma system I've seen an increased willingness from posters to express an opinion, and offer a sometimes unique & personal viewpoint. How good is that?

Karma or no karma...you're always going to get a percentage of trolls and flamers. If you don't give them any fuel, the fire soon goes out. 

Thanks here to the mods.

Paul Wright


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## JR (Mar 28, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I think that the influx of new posters and trollers is bringing it on. New members are good to have, but trollers make me disgudsted. rather than Karma, just ban them.



+1. I for one am glad Karma is gone. I think it was used for the wrong purpose. If people become insulting, maybe instead we could report them to the site master and have a system to ban them instead, but I would keep Karma out if it was up to me...


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## shtfmeister (Mar 28, 2012)

I think it helped keep things civil. i think it should be brought back.


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## dstppy (Mar 28, 2012)

shtfmeister said:


> I think it helped keep things civil. i think it should be brought back.



I disagree. It definitely had a chilling effect on my posts. It was abused by cowards that couldn't civilly disagree with you or support why.

Honestly, look at how many smites Neuro got . . . how is that possible for a real content contributor?


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## wickidwombat (Mar 28, 2012)

i think trolls wre responsible for most smiting, maybe the cutoff for being able to give karma should need like a minimum of 100 post count, something high, as trolls would likely get bored or banned before they get that many posts

I liked karma


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## Wrathwilde (Mar 28, 2012)

dstppy said:


> Honestly, look at how many smites Neuro got . . . how is that possible for a real content contributor?



I believe Neuro's Karma was still to the positive, and reasonably balanced, so I look at is it as his being a respected, if sometimes contentious, member of this forum... one I'd probably enjoy having lunch and discussing photography with. I'd be much less inclined to do so with someone who had all positive Karma, or all smites. The first because they only play the safe, consensus, view... the latter, because they are likely just as unpleasant, ignorant and obstinate in real life.

_*I would like to see Karma/Smite reinstated, as I believe it helped identify trolls*_. I used it as a reference often, I figure if the community consensus had a persons Karma/Smite reasonably balanced then that person was worth having a dialog with. On the other hand if the person had 50 smites and only 4 Karma, then I know that person is likely a troll and I can save my breath trying to engage in a reasonable dialog with them. 

As it stands now, there seems to be a number of trolls still operating, and now I have no way to identify them at a glance, so we all risk getting sucked into the pot they are stirring... out of ignorance or amusement.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde


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## AprilForever (Mar 28, 2012)

Wrathwilde said:


> _*I too would like to see Karma/Smite reinstated, as I believe it helped identify trolls*_. I used it as a reference often, I figure if the community consensus had a persons Karma/Smite reasonably balanced (or Karma rich) then that person was worth having a dialog with. On the other hand if the person had 50 smites and only 4 Karma, then I know that person is likely a troll and I can save my breath trying to engage in a reasonable dialog with them.
> 
> As it stands now, there seems to be a number of trolls still operating, and now I have no way to identify them at a glance, so we all risk getting sucked into the pot they are stirring... out of ignorance or amusement.
> 
> ...



I was not a troll, but had a lot more smites than cheers. This was because of the position I chose concerning the 7D, 7D mk II, APS-C vs APS-H, MP vs ISO, MP vs DR...

The smiting being gone is perhaps a good thing. Perhaps not, but, it seemed to me that I got randomly smitten even when I had not posted...


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## shtfmeister (Mar 28, 2012)

Wrathwilde said:


> _*I too would like to see Karma/Smite reinstated, as I believe it helped identify trolls*_. I used it as a reference often, I figure if the community consensus had a persons Karma/Smite reasonably balanced (or Karma rich) then that person was worth having a dialog with. On the other hand if the person had 50 smites and only 4 Karma, then I know that person is likely a troll and I can save my breath trying to engage in a reasonable dialog with them.
> 
> As it stands now, there seems to be a number of trolls still operating, and now I have no way to identify them at a glance, so we all risk getting sucked into the pot they are stirring... out of ignorance or amusement.
> 
> ...



what he said


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## solarpos (Mar 28, 2012)

The system was seriously flawed and brought out the worst in people with their anonymous online strong arm/bully attitudes. 

Examples:
I love my 7D so I'm automatically an asshat/idiot to 50% of the populace and I'm not going FF so I'm an idiot/asshat to another large portion of CR forumites. I don't give the 'correct' responses to why I like/love my gear to even those who like/love the same gear so I am a noob etc etc. 

I am a photographer, not a photographer like you or like you but my own style with my own experiences and knowledge base. Hate me for it? Well the smite system supports that hate. 

Thank you for removing it.


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## JR (Mar 28, 2012)

dstppy said:


> Honestly, look at how many smites Neuro got . . . how is that possible for a real content contributor?



Where is Neuro! Did not see him post in several days...I hope all the smites did not get to him! Come back!


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## jrista (Mar 28, 2012)

Karma is really a sketchy thing, and difficult to nail down whether it was valuable or not. I was pretty even with karma for a while, and when I started bringing science, math and a little factual reference to the table, my smites grew to double my applauds. I don't think people like having their shiny, etherial wonder-worlds where everything they believe in their heads is also exactly true in reality (be it about something they hate or love), and when someone bursts that bubble with a little honesty or truth, they smite smite smite! I'd figure thats how a guy like Neuro has 80% as many smites as he has applauds...people don't like having their fanciful bubbles burst, even if they are burst with factually valid information.

I personally ignored karma most of the time. In some cases you might see someone with 5 applauds and 50 smites and their posts were pretty reasonable, just not what people wanted to hear. In other cases you might see someone with 50 applauds and 5 smites, and they were a raging troll. Then there were the even keelers like Neuro, or briansquibb (who seemed to have a null rating at all times, equal applauds as smites), when most of the time he was just trying to keep the mood light, and half the rest of the time he was keeping people honest.

I think a better system might be a LIKE system, with a "reported violations" rating off in some other place (i.e. the Like and Report Violation links far away from each other.) Likes can only be positive, and would generally only be given when someone posts something useful. Reports, if done right, would be harder to issue and hopefully would only be used in cases where someone was blatantly a troll out for lulz, or other offenses. Both rankings would be shown, kind of like applaud and smite, but hopefully "reports" would be far less frequent in most cases.


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## kdsand (Mar 28, 2012)

Perhaps if everyone could see how often you smite others in addition to your actual karma points and posts. If its apparent someone is just here to bash others then.... 
*OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! *


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## pwp (Mar 28, 2012)

JR said:


> dstppy said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, look at how many smites Neuro got . . . how is that possible for a real content contributor?
> ...



Where is Dr Neuro? He's probably got a life. And a professional life. 
The experience behind the quality of his endlessly generous posts has to come from somewhere. 
He's probably working!

Paul Wright


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## D_Rochat (Mar 28, 2012)

mrmarks said:


> It's better to have more moderators than the so-called karma system. The karma system is open to abuse by irresponsible and immature members and can be unfair to many. Just my 2 cents



Agreed. I haven't noticed a higher amount of nasty posts since karma was removed. In fact, I've noticed the opposite. To be fair though, it may be partially due to the 5D craziness settling. Just don't feed or encourage the trolls and they'll move on. Unfortunately the Internet is full of <insert choice word> and they'll never go away completely.


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## D_Rochat (Mar 28, 2012)

kdsand said:


> Perhaps if everyone could see how often you smite others in addition to your actual karma points and posts. If its apparent someone is just here to bash others then....
> *OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! *



I like it! Take away the gutless anonymity and we would have seen fewer smites.


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## kdsand (Mar 28, 2012)

pwp said:


> JR said:
> 
> 
> > dstppy said:
> ...



So naive -- the entity you call Neuro is actually just a brain in a box that slowly gains control of people for its own nefarious purpose. :'(


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## D_Rochat (Mar 28, 2012)

kdsand said:


> pwp said:
> 
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> > JR said:
> ...


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## JR (Mar 28, 2012)

you guys are funny!


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## kdsand (Mar 28, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> kdsand said:
> 
> 
> > pwp said:
> ...



Lol

Please someone Photoshop a camera and flash into its hands!


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## kdsand (Mar 28, 2012)

It would be a hoot and a half if administration set the picture as his profile and wait to see his reaction.


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## neuroanatomist (Mar 28, 2012)

JR said:


> Where is Neuro! Did not see him post in several days...I hope all the smites did not get to him! Come back!



LOL. On vacation, visiting family in CA.



Wrathwilde said:


> ...one I'd probably enjoy having lunch and discussing photography with....



If you're ever in Boston, let me know!


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## well_dunno (Apr 17, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> i think trolls wre responsible for most smiting, maybe the cutoff for being able to give karma should need like a minimum of 100 post count, something high, as trolls would likely get bored or banned before they get that many posts




I totally agree, but can we make the minimum 1500 posts? That would leave you, Neuro, Mt Spokane and Brian as the only ones potentially guilty on smites. ;D Just being silly!


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## Marsu42 (Apr 19, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> I like it! Take away the gutless anonymity and we would have seen fewer smites.



The problem does not seem to be that there wouldn't exist ideas for a working implementations of a Karma-like system, but that the current system doesn't allow for them due do "black box" design and nobody seems to be around to expand it. 

Actually it would be quite an honor to program a system that credits good posts, keeping trolls away but still prevents newbies to get stomped for being clueless and at the same time reflects the credibility of acknowledged experts. Since nobody ever came up with a working system, I guess it's safe to say that this is something to get a phd for.

Because even quick fixes for more accountability didn't seem to be doable, after this time w/o karma I think the site does better than before, but I said that before a lot of times. Trolls cannot take over if there is enough healthy substance, and this is clearly the case in this forum.


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## kdsand (Apr 19, 2012)

Lets have something _implying_  during registration - the existence of an automatic tipping point whereas trollish behaviour will result in mandatory late night visitation by - volunteers. 
Including of course mugshot <photoshoped> pictures taken of previous offenders looking like they went one round to many in the ring with Rockey. 
A forum hall of shame would be a hoot and a half. We could use volunteered pictures.
;D


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