# The World's Largest Ultrahigh-Sensitivity CMOS Image Sensor



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 18, 2018)

```
Canon has posted an article about what they claim is “The World’s Largest Ultrahigh-Sensitivity CMOS Image Sensor”. You can see by the image above that the sensor dwarfs the Canon EOS Rebel T3i (600D).</p>
<p>This large image sensor was <a href="http://global.canon/en/news/2010/aug31e.html">announced back in 2010</a>.</p>
<p>As <a href="https://www.canonnews.com/canon-whitepaper-the-worlds-largest-ultrahigh-sensitivity-cmos-image-sensor">noted by Canon News</a>, this sensor has no real impact on modern sensor technology, but it does show Canon’s ability to scale an image sensor up to a massive size.</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<p><strong>From Canon Global:</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>A certain level of light is required when shooting with a digital camera or camcorder, and without it, images cannot be captured due to insufficient sensitivity.</p>
<p>In the pursuit of further improving the sensitivity of imaging elements, Canon has embraced the challenge of achieving higher levels of sensitivity and larger element sizes while maintaining high-speed readout performance, and has succeeded in developing the world’s largest class of CMOS image sensor measuring approximately 20 cm square. At present, the standard diameter of the silicon wafers on which CMOS sensors are fabricated is 12 inches (approx. 30 cm). As such, a 20-cm-square sensor is the largest size that can be manufactured based on these dimensions, and is equivalent to nearly 40 times the size of a 35 mm full-frame CMOS sensor.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Increasing the size of CMOS sensors entails overcoming such problems as distortion and transmission delays for the electrical signals converted from light. To resolve these issues, Canon not only made use of a parallel processing circuit, but also exercised ingenuity with the transfer method itself. As a result, the sensor makes possible the shooting of video at 60 frames per second with only 0.3 lux of illumination (approximately the same level of brightness as that generated by a full moon).</p>
<p>Possible applications for this ultrahigh-sensitivity CMOS sensor include the video recording of celestial objects in the night sky, nocturnal animal behavior and auroras, and use in nightwatch cameras.</p>
<p>When installed in the 105 cm Schmidt camera at the Kiso Observatory operated by the University of Tokyo’s Institute of Astronomy, the ultrahigh-sensitivity sensor made possible the world’s first video recording of meteors with an equivalent apparent magnitude of 10, a level so dark that image capture had not been possible until now. As a result, the sensor provided proof that the frequency with which faint meteors occurred coincided with theoretical estimates to date. By supporting more detailed recording and statistical analysis of meteors, the technology could lead to an increased understanding of the influence that meteors may have exerted on the development of life on Earth. <a href="http://www.canon.com/technology/future/cmos.html">Read the full article</a></p></blockquote>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span></p>
```


----------



## Hector1970 (Jun 18, 2018)

I expect this sensor in the 5DSR II.
It better have 4K too.
It could a have large touch screen at the back of it.
In fact there would be room for a 12” computer.
It would be great for manual focussing


----------



## Nitroman (Jun 18, 2018)

I wish Canon or somebody would release a slide in digital back for my 5x4 camera. It could be like a Polaroid back, but have large lcd screen. ;D


----------



## unfocused (Jun 18, 2018)

It is really a shame that Canon is unable to innovate.


----------



## IglooEater (Jun 18, 2018)

This is so going into HarryFilm’s new Medium format rig


----------



## swithdrawn (Jun 18, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> It better have 4K too.



I'm sure it would, but it would have a crop factor of 1 million, and I bet the rolling shutter would be terrible.


----------



## KeithBreazeal (Jun 18, 2018)

I can see the 8x10 format making a comeback. This is awesome news!!!


----------



## Aaron D (Jun 18, 2018)

All I can say is it had better use an EF lens mount.


----------



## hne (Jun 18, 2018)

KeithBreazeal said:


> I can see the 8x10 format making a comeback. This is awesome news!!!



At 8" square, it doesn't really fill that format. I guess geometry would allow for 3 5x4 sensors per wafer however. Not bad either.


----------



## KirkD (Jun 18, 2018)

unfocused said:


> It is really a shame that Canon is unable to innovate.



Yeah. It is just more of the same-nothing new.


----------



## SV (Jun 18, 2018)

I'll wait until they have the full frame sensor


----------



## scottburgess (Jun 18, 2018)

KeithBreazeal said:


> I can see the 8x10 format making a comeback. This is awesome news!!!



Based on the numbers provided, a 200mm x 200mm square sensor would cost about $75,000 if produced in large quantities--probably closer to $750,000 for a smaller run since fabrication set-up is divided across fewer units. CMOS unit costs after set-up are proportional to the cube of the die area. So get out your checkbook, you crazy fool!

The reason no one makes true 6" x 7" or 8" x 8" sensors is that there is no real market for sensors over $30,000. The CMOS cost curve has largely bottomed out at the 28nm scale. If you want large format for landscape or architectural work, a quality scanner back is the affordable solution for the foreseeable future.

Scott


----------



## RGF (Jun 18, 2018)

Oh boy, large format digital


----------



## Yasko (Jun 18, 2018)

Imagine the dof with a 50 1.4 that would cover this sensors possible image circle... surreal images :
Like... 12 to 15 mm '35 mm' equivalent? ;D just guessing...


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 18, 2018)

This, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is proof that 1)-canon does not innovate, 2)-there is a new short flange mirrorless Mount, 3)-that there is no FF mirrorless camera coming, and 4)-that Canon is *******!

Oh yes, almost forgot.... that they are noti working on a 50F1.4 IS


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 18, 2018)

I guess the “out” is the unqualified “ultra high sensitivity”?

http://largesense.com/products/8x10-large-format-digital-back-ls911/


----------



## Cariboucoach (Jun 19, 2018)

I would be willing to bet this will go on their mirrorless camera, M5 Mark XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX!


----------



## TAF (Jun 19, 2018)

I wonder which satellite this is used in?

Of course, a satellite is a mirrorless camera. Somewhat larger than desirable for pocket use, but none the less, mirrorless. (who says mirrorless is only for size)

OTOH, it doesn't have interchangeable lenses, so it's a Powershot.


----------



## maxfactor9933 (Jun 19, 2018)

4k full sensor readout plz


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 19, 2018)

TAF said:


> Of course, a satellite is a mirrorless camera.



Lol.


----------



## hendrik-sg (Jun 19, 2018)

It's not nearly mirrorless, it hat 18 mirrors. But wait, this are lens mirrors not a camera mirror (which is what matters). It's great for all, it has a relatively compact camera. And for those who need it for fu**ing, where size matters, it's specially great ;D

an what's the best, it's really exclusive, not every common sheikh can afford one. This needs a nice oil gusher running quite a while


----------



## Talys (Jun 19, 2018)

I wonder what a piece of glass for that thing costs


----------



## photonius (Jun 19, 2018)

digital Kirlian photography anyone


----------



## BeenThere (Jun 20, 2018)

If this was built under contract for some industrial or government user, then Canon probably earned a profit on the endeavor. If it was built using R&D funds, then there was probably (IMO) a better place to spend the money. But now they have some bragging rights for whatever that is worth. Obviously a very small market for this sensor.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 20, 2018)

IglooEater said:


> This is so going into HarryFilm’s new Medium format rig



--

Well now that you said it, I CAN MOST DEFINITELY SUGGEST TO YOU that indeed Canon is looking how they would layout multiple Medium format sensors of DCI 8k (8192 x 4380 pixels) of 56mm x 42mm size. Here is the below graphic used for suggested layout of the chips on 300mm silicon wafers. The aspect ratio difference of 1.89 imaging photosite vs the actual 4:3 sensor aspect ratio is PROBABLY due to the in-between-lines-of-photosites being using for DPAF or specialty edge detection or OTHER colour-filters photosites (i.e. extra Yellow channel?)

Cost of course is about $3500 to $4000 US per chip BUT they could get it down to $2500 US with a bit of extra quality control technology applied to the manufacturing process!

In case you're wondering, my sources say that the new Canon MF sensor's physical size is indeed 56mm x 42mm BUT that the imaging photosite aspect ratio of 8192 by 4380 is due to photosites used by a DPAF-like mechanism and/or a POSSIBLE extra colour channel being added for better colours AND/OR used for better low-light performance (i.e. NO colour filter on photosite for PURE luminance information capture!)

I just don't know all the specifics yet!


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 20, 2018)

hendrik-sg said:


> But wait, this are lens mirrors not a camera mirror (which is what matters).



My post was tongue in cheek, but regardless the way JWST selects focus is unlike a mirrorless camera in that pointing is achieved by a separate unit than those used for imaging. It’s more like a rangefinder.



HarryFilm said:


> Here is the below graphic used for suggested layout of the chips on 300mm silicon wafers. The aspect ratio difference of 1.89 imaging photosite vs the actual 4:3 sensor aspect ratio is PROBABLY due to the in-between-lines-of-photosites being using for DPAF or specialty edge detection or OTHER colour-filters photosites (i.e. extra Yellow channel?)



In between lines used for DPAF? Yah no.

The best way to explain weirdness in that graphic is that the guy who fired up google slides to lay it out isn’t very detail oriented. Couldn’t even bother to spell check!


----------



## slclick (Jun 20, 2018)

It makes the Rebel look Presidential.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 20, 2018)

Guys, this was announced in 2010.

https://global.canon/en/news/2010/aug31e.html


----------



## scyrene (Jun 20, 2018)

hendrik-sg said:


> It's not nearly mirrorless, it hat 18 mirrors. But wait, this are lens mirrors not a camera mirror (which is what matters). It's great for all, it has a relatively compact camera. And for those who need it for fu**ing, where size matters, it's specially great ;D
> 
> an what's the best, it's really exclusive, not every common sheikh can afford one. This needs a nice oil gusher running quite a while



This raises the question, if you mount a mirror lens on a mirorless camera, does it cease to be mirrorless? *Robot brain explodes*


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 20, 2018)

scyrene said:


> hendrik-sg said:
> 
> 
> > It's not nearly mirrorless, it hat 18 mirrors. But wait, this are lens mirrors not a camera mirror (which is what matters). It's great for all, it has a relatively compact camera. And for those who need it for fu**ing, where size matters, it's specially great ;D
> ...



A good question to reflect on.....


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 20, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> If this was built under contract for some industrial or government user, then Canon probably earned a profit on the endeavor. If it was built using R&D funds, then there was probably (IMO) a better place to spend the money. But now they have some bragging rights for whatever that is worth. Obviously a very small market for this sensor.




definitely a small market for large sensors, but when you are sending things into orbit you expect astronomical prices


----------



## MrToes (Jun 20, 2018)

This is old news! DP review had an article about it eight years ago. 
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7964414898/canonlargestsensor


----------



## kaihp (Jun 20, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> Well now that you said it, I CAN MOST DEFINITELY SUGGEST TO YOU that indeed Canon is looking how they would layout multiple Medium format sensors of DCI 8k (8192 x 4380 pixels) of 56mm x 42mm size. Here is the below graphic used for suggested layout of the chips on 300mm silicon wafers. The aspect ratio difference of 1.89 imaging photosite vs the actual 4:3 sensor aspect ratio is PROBABLY due to the in-between-lines-of-photosites being using for DPAF or specialty edge detection or OTHER colour-filters photosites (i.e. extra Yellow channel?)



Excuse me, but that's not how chips are (normally) placed on a wafer. They are placed in a strict Manhattan corner-to-corner pattern, so you can run a (diamond) saw through on both the horizontal and vertical.

If there is enough economic incentive (and at this size of dies, there probably is), you could make a setup as shown in the graphic. It would 'just' require a very different handling of the wafer at the dicing (sawing) and picking stage.
I've just never seen a setup like this in the real world.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 20, 2018)

kaihp said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > Well now that you said it, I CAN MOST DEFINITELY SUGGEST TO YOU that indeed Canon is looking how they would layout multiple Medium format sensors of DCI 8k (8192 x 4380 pixels) of 56mm x 42mm size. Here is the below graphic used for suggested layout of the chips on 300mm silicon wafers. The aspect ratio difference of 1.89 imaging photosite vs the actual 4:3 sensor aspect ratio is PROBABLY due to the in-between-lines-of-photosites being using for DPAF or specialty edge detection or OTHER colour-filters photosites (i.e. extra Yellow channel?)
> ...



Here’s the thing:
Harry Film either has people trolling him, or, more likely he invents his sources and the reference material. His claims are typically outlandish and rife with technical errors, but it’s all in good fun.


----------



## Talys (Jun 20, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> definitely a small market for large sensors, but when you are sending things into orbit you expect astronomical prices



Good one ;D


----------



## scyrene (Jun 20, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> it’s all in good fun.



That's a very charitable interpretation.


----------



## Diko (Jun 20, 2018)

Really?!? I wonder where were marketing departments of Canon USA and Japan sleeping.

Come on this is like eight years old. I was already on board even though my registration here is one year later.

The new big boss promised innovations. He delivered some like Canon 5D4's new sensor tech which compared to the previous ones was tremendously better. Still not the best but better. 

The question however remains: why now? It's like reminding to everyone now we were doing some R&D back then and that's what we got "back then". Either they are coming out next month with something tremendously new when awesome or this is the most retarded strategy marketing move I've ever seen.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 20, 2018)

kaihp said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > Well now that you said it, I CAN MOST DEFINITELY SUGGEST TO YOU that indeed Canon is looking how they would layout multiple Medium format sensors of DCI 8k (8192 x 4380 pixels) of 56mm x 42mm size. Here is the below graphic used for suggested layout of the chips on 300mm silicon wafers. The aspect ratio difference of 1.89 imaging photosite vs the actual 4:3 sensor aspect ratio is PROBABLY due to the in-between-lines-of-photosites being using for DPAF or specialty edge detection or OTHER colour-filters photosites (i.e. extra Yellow channel?)
> ...



---

Sony and Philips do non-square layouts on larger sensors and other DSP circuits... I HAVE SEEN THAT in the Netherlands when I got to take a tour of a DSP chip making facility. I am assuming the diamond-tip sawing stations can cut linear strips so long at least one axis is straight.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 20, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> kaihp said:
> 
> 
> > HarryFilm said:
> ...



---

I should note everyone that the chip layout is from my Euro-sources which THEY MADE -- their English is only decent-enough or simply outright terrible. I would expect that and even I didn't notice the mistakes pointed out by an earlier forum poster.

Anyways.... NO! I DO NOT make up my sources ....BUT.... they are -S-O-U-R-C-E-S- which means PLURAL! That also means the information is disparate and unconfirmed so I personally cannot vouch for their accuracy....BUT....very much like detective work, when you start seeing multiple "witnesses" tell the same story, it means you need to take a closer look at what is being discussed to find some commonalities.
(i.e. what "sources" are MY SOURCES using?) Reporting is all about fact-finding and correlation....AND...while correlation does not necessarily specify causation, you ALSO cannot ignore many correlations either!

Sooooo.........All I can say with reasonable confidence, is that Canon IS TESTING a medium format around 50 megapixel, high frame rate (20 fps to 25 fps burst rate) stills camera with DCI 4K full-sensor sampled 4:2:2 video! I expect an official announcement sometime in February to April 2019.

I can ALSO STATE with reasonable confidence that an update or replacement for the Canon XC-15 camera is PROBABLY headed for a Photokina 2018 announcement. It is probable that it will be a one-inch sensor and will have 10-bit 4:2:2 interframe 60 fps encoded video AND will have an interchangeable lens system.

And finally, a short-flange APS-C sensor mirrorless that looks like an Canon M5 may also be announced either at Photokina or soon after.

THOSE are what MANY of MY SOURCES are saying! 

Again, WE SHALL SEE WHAT HAPPENS !!!


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 21, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Here’s the thing:
> Harry Film either has people trolling him, or, more likely he invents his sources and the reference material. His claims are typically outlandish and rife with technical errors, but it’s all in good fun.



The trick is, to keep making claim after claim after claim, and eventually you will get one right, and then you can claim that you knew.....

For instance:
I know that the next camera Canon releases will be mirrorless.
I know that the next camera Canon releases will be a powershot.
I know that the next camera Canon releases will be the 7D3
I know that the next camera Canon releases will be an upgrade of the 5DS
I know that the next camera Canon releases will be a FF DSLR
I know that the next camera Canon releases will be a crop DSLR

and, in the insanely unlikely scenario, I know that the next camera Canon releases will be an APS-H DSLR with the 200Mpixel sensor.


So.... next one anounced, remember, I predicted it!


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 21, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > kaihp said:
> ...



Perhaps you have real sources, and perhaps English isn’t their strong suit. However you represent them as engineers, and one trait engineers typically share is attention to detail. One trait Europeans typically share is fluency in multiple languages. A European engineer misspelling “format” is highly unlikely. Format in German is format. Format in Dutch is formaat. Format in French is format. Format in Italian is formato. Format in Croatian is format. Format in Spanish is formato. Format in Czech is formát. Format in Swedish is formatera. It’s never fromat. You’ll find that aspect is similarly never apsect.

If you really have someone sending you this stuff, take it with a mountain of salt; you’re probably being trolled.


----------



## kaihp (Jun 21, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> kaihp said:
> 
> 
> > Excuse me, but that's not how chips are (normally) placed on a wafer. They are placed in a strict Manhattan corner-to-corner pattern, so you can run a (diamond) saw through on both the horizontal and vertical.
> ...



You're missing the point. Wait, you not only missed the board, but the entire planet.

Chips aspect ratios are based on the ratio of IOs vs core area, and in case of sensors, they are defined by how to want the image to look like (e.g. 3:2 or 16:9 aspect). An extreme case are DRAM chips.

The point is that the saw goes through from side to side of the wafer. Now do that on your diagram, and count how make sensors are left working.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 21, 2018)

9. What do I win?


----------



## Valvebounce (Jun 21, 2018)

11 work, is there a prize


----------



## Aglet (Jun 22, 2018)

KeithBreazeal said:


> I can see the 8x10 format making a comeback. This is awesome news!!!



you can see it here _now_ if you have enough scratch for that itch.. ;D

http://largesense.com/


----------



## Aglet (Jun 22, 2018)

Nitroman said:


> I wish Canon or somebody would release a slide in digital back for my 5x4 camera. It could be like a Polaroid back, but have large lcd screen. ;D



They've got something you might like too.

http://largesense.com/products/4x5-large-format-digital-back-ls45/


----------



## TAF (Jun 22, 2018)

Well, on reflection, I stand corrected.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 22, 2018)

Aglet said:


> KeithBreazeal said:
> 
> 
> > I can see the 8x10 format making a comeback. This is awesome news!!!
> ...



 I thought this was really cool until I found the $106,000 price. Ouch! Still cool, but unobtainable for mortals. Neuro probably keeps one on a shelf in the laundry room.


----------



## Don Haines (Jun 23, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Aglet said:
> 
> 
> > KeithBreazeal said:
> ...



WAIT A MINUTE!

The Canon sensor is the worlds largest at 20cm square, but this 8X10 sensor would be 20cm by 25cm.....

Something does not compute


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 23, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...



Actually, if you follow the link I posted on the second page, you’ll see that it’s actually 9X11


----------



## Valvebounce (Jun 23, 2018)

Hi Don. 
I think you missed the Ultrahigh-Sensitivity bit! ;D

Cheers, Graham. 



Don Haines said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 25, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Aglet said:
> ...



---

The silicon wafers used by my "Fabs" are either 200mm or 300mm ...BUT... there are also 500mm sizes for specialty systems (i.e. very large vector-based CISC/RISC/DSP chips aka Array processors) which need a very large die size. I think I remember seeing that 500mm one at one of Lockheed Martin's subsidiaries who made custom chips for government customers. Curtis Wright and of course Teledyne-Dalsa also are starting to use larger than 300mm wafer sizes.

The largest sensors can be multi-chip OR single-die slices and if I remember correctly the largest single die slice is a 340mm by 340mm for a 16k by 16k resolution satellite-specific CMOS chip -- I think it was made my Thales or Dassault for a French commercial imaging satellite. Because it used outside-of-sensor-area DSP circuits, it needed to be 34cm by 34 cm in order to fit on a 500 mm wafer. Last i heard is the company was selling 16k x 96k images at 15000+ Euros per area scan and that they are booked solid for satellite time! SOMEONE HIGH UP is most certainly booking up all the time so that no-one else gets the imagery!

---

Now those of you wondering about my sources...A source BY DEFINITION is generally unconfirmable and untrustworthy! You need MULTIPLE SOURCES to confirm ANY rumour of any type! Ergo, I like to cultivate multiple anonymous "sources" which hopefully have "real data" which can at the very least, be cross-checked and correlated to come up with a MOST-LIKELY SCENARIO. I have television media training (i.e. a Diploma in Broadcast Television) which means I was taught to DIG DEEP and CORRELATE MULTIPLE DATA SOURCE so that any given "fact" can be given a specific weight. SOME SOURCES are "Better" than others so I give them more weight. Other sources are newer and have no track record with me and I give hem much less weight. 

I also have enough technical education that I can at least Quantify the legitimacy of SOME TYPES OF TECHNICAL DATA specifically relating to camera gear, imaging sensors, computer processing techniques and technology, computer memory and online/offline storage systems and aerospace/UAV/drone systems. THOSE are in my area of expertise. 

Soooooo......using a simple spreadsheet and a basic 1-to-10 weighting system you give ALL facts a weight based upon the NUMBER of disparate sources that are giving said fact out (i.e. Canon is testing an MF camera!). If 7 sources out of 10 are giving me that fact, and 4 of those sources are in Japanese sensor engineering related to or known by people at Canon or its subsidiaries, then I can use a Mean and Average-based scoring system to tell me that BY WEIGHTED AVERAGE, a lot of high quality sources are telling me Canon is making a big sensor! Then If at least two OTHER sources from say....a flourite-related sub-systems manufacturer and a magnesium/aluminum tubing supplier tells me something of a certain diameter and length is going to certain factories in Japan, then I need to add that weight in too!

Ergo, Canon is a making VERY BIG LENSES for a VERY BIG SENSOR and it's for a near 65mm system....Sooooo...SEE how this works?...Correlation MAY HAVE a specific causation and by digging even further, I get to see if a specific causation is actually related to said correlations...i.e. Canon is making a large-sensor MF Stills or Video Camera and thus needs big tubed-lenses, lots of heavy indium-coated flourite glass, big magnesium bodies and big sensors !!!


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jun 25, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> Now those of you wondering about my sources...A source BY DEFINITION is generally unconfirmable and untrustworthy!



Please cite your multiple definitions which on weighted average return “unconfirmable and untrustworthy” as defining characteristics of “source.”


----------

