# Chinese aftermarket guns



## dlleno (Jan 29, 2013)

We're seeing a very interesting explosion of capable and affordable after market alternatives to the genuine article. Yonguo, phottix, oloong, and triopo come to mind, all in fierce competition with each other -- all are playing leap frog as regards feature sets. Phottix is combining Nikon and Canon capabilities in one unit, I presume to cut mfg cost. The more Canon-oriented Yonguo just announced an on-board radio receiver/trigger in their very affordable (560 iii) manual gun. Oloong is said to be producing a full-featured flagship clone this year, and triopo just announced another HSS gun competing directly with Yonguo's newest 568 HSS capable gun. 

With the chinese guns, speedliters can affordably fill an apollo orb or a parabolic umbrealla, for example, with three or even six ETTL/HSS guns without breaking the bank. Yonguo in particular has an aparently large market share and reasonable reputation for acceptable reliability, from what I can tell. Their "flagship" HSS/ETTL capable gun is presently $170. 

Yonguo appears to be the chinese gun of choice for canon users, or at least they are the emerging darling. with such fierce competition it wouldn't surprise me if they produce a 568 mark ii soon, by adding the radio recever of their model 560 iii. Its an interesting show to watch, with HSS, ETTL, and integrated radio trigger capabilities appearing in the after market. And with Canon themselves asserting true radio control with their new flagship system, the days of Pocket Wizards or other expensive radio ad-ons (for speedlites), appear to be numbered.

Frankly I'm tempted not to invest any further in the Canon guns, but just keep my 580ex ii and invest in a bunch of Yonguo guns and tranceivers. The capability you get per dollar is astonishing, and the affordable reduncancy mitigates the reliability risk. Sadly I expect Canon's next move will be some sort of digital key authorization mechanism to lock down the hot-shoe ETTL and HSS communications, preventing the chinese from reverse-engineering their stuff and selling at 1/4 the cost.


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## RLPhoto (Jan 29, 2013)

I've always felt once you get to the point of stuffing 3+ Speedlites into one softbox...

Why not just use a Alienbee + Vagabond mini? Its about the same $$$, has more power and you only have to take one battery, not 3 packs for each speedlite or a box full of AA's. Sure its manual flash, sure it doesn't have HSS, and sure its alittle more heavy but It can take some serious modifiers.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 29, 2013)

dlleno said:


> Sadly I expect Canon's next move will be some sort of digital key authorization mechanism to lock down the hot-shoe ETTL and HSS communications, preventing the chinese from reverse-engineering their stuff and selling at 1/4 the cost.



I'd expect Canon to upgrade to ettl-3 sometime (with 2nd curtain remote sync) so that there's a new protocol to reverse engineer - but I doubt even Canon would get that aggressive to encrypt their camera to lens or flash communication.

Enough people with cash will still buy Canon because of reliability and cps, no matter how good the competition is - 3rd party products and Magic Lantern serve more as a buffer to prevent budget users jumping ship to another manufacturer. And if Canon cannot grab the money, they'd rather see it go to Yonguo, Sigma, ... than to Nikon instead.


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## dlleno (Jan 29, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> I've always felt once you get to the point of stuffing 3+ Speedlites into one softbox...
> 
> Why not just use a Alienbee + Vagabond mini? Its about the same $$$, has more power and you only have to take one battery, not 3 packs for each speedlite or a box full of AA's. Sure its manual flash, sure it doesn't have HSS, and sure its alittle more heavy but It can take some serious modifiers.



yea, I rather agree if the goal is manually controlled power output, if the subject distance is not that dynamic, its a prolonged shoot especially, and you don't care about ETTL or HSS, groups, and ratios all controlled via the camera LCD. Its also true that modifiers really suitable for speedlites are fewer than many realize, i.e. many of them (especially the parabolic umbrellas) rely on true bare bulb their results. 

speedliters are a different breed. they enjoy the flexibility of using multiple guns either together or assigned to different groups, they take advantage of ETTL and HSS, put guns in odd places, use small attached modifiers like flags/snoots, and they enjoy controlling everything using the camera LCD. I just think its fascinating to watch the emerging after market, which only recently is coming seriously close to duplicating the Canon flash system in areas such as ETTL and HSS and radio triggers


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## cayenne (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm still saving my nickles and dimes...and waiting and watching and trying to research.

I'm thinking at some point, I will buy my main unit, Canon Speedlite 600EX-RT Flash.....and then maybe look into the Yonguo lights...to supplement for other off camera lighting, in hopes the 600EX-RT can control them all...ETTL, groups and all that good stuff. 

I'd think it would be good to get the canon one as the main controller...and then save a bit of money on all the additional slave speedlites...

cayenne


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## dlleno (Jan 29, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly I expect Canon's next move will be some sort of digital key authorization mechanism to lock down the hot-shoe ETTL and HSS communications, preventing the chinese from reverse-engineering their stuff and selling at 1/4 the cost.
> ...


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## dlleno (Jan 29, 2013)

cayenne said:


> I'm still saving my nickles and dimes...and waiting and watching and trying to research.
> 
> I'm thinking at some point, I will buy my main unit, Canon Speedlite 600EX-RT Flash.....and then maybe look into the Yonguo lights...to supplement for other off camera lighting, in hopes the 600EX-RT can control them all...ETTL, groups and all that good stuff.
> 
> ...



exactly. if Yonguo adds onboard radio triggers to their top gun, then presumedly the the 600EX-RT will in fact control them all, plus a 580 EX ii with yonguo tranceiver attached. moreover, the yonguo on-camera transciever may already control an off-camera 600EX-RT I dont't know, but if that isn't the case today its only a matter of time before they figure it out.


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## AdamJ (Feb 15, 2013)

cayenne said:


> I'm still saving my nickles and dimes...and waiting and watching and trying to research.
> 
> I'm thinking at some point, I will buy my main unit, Canon Speedlite 600EX-RT Flash.....and then maybe look into the Yonguo lights...to supplement for other off camera lighting, in hopes the 600EX-RT can control them all...ETTL, groups and all that good stuff.
> 
> ...



As far as I know, Canon RT and Yongnuo (YN-622) radio systems are not compatible. A 622 transceiver can control any modern Canon Flash but only through another 622, not through Canon's built-in RT. Similarly, Canon's RT system cannot control a 622.


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## Marsu42 (Feb 15, 2013)

AdamJ said:


> As far as I know, Canon RT and Yongnuo (YN-622) radio systems are not compatible. A 622 transceiver can control any modern Canon Flash but only through another 622, not through Canon's built-in RT. Similarly, Canon's RT system cannot control a 622.



I'm really looking forward to someone reverse-engineering the Canon rt protocol and 3rd party rt gear is available. I hope it's possible and Canon didn't prevent it by (too strong) encryption and that the protocol itself isn't protected by patents - nowadays just about everything seems to qualify for a patent.


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## Rienzphotoz (Feb 15, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Enough people with cash will still buy Canon because of reliability and cps, no matter how good the competition is - 3rd party products and Magic Lantern serve more as a buffer to prevent budget users jumping ship to another manufacturer. And if Canon cannot grab the money, they'd rather see it go to Yonguo, Sigma, ... than to Nikon instead.


+1


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## wickidwombat (Feb 17, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly I expect Canon's next move will be some sort of digital key authorization mechanism to lock down the hot-shoe ETTL and HSS communications, preventing the chinese from reverse-engineering their stuff and selling at 1/4 the cost.
> ...


odins have second curtain remote sync already i use it with 580exII flashes
(2nd curtain doesnt work on studio strobes though  )


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## distant.star (Feb 17, 2013)

.
Guns???


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## AprilForever (Feb 17, 2013)

When I fist saw this, I thought for sure it was more spam...


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## dlleno (Feb 17, 2013)

AprilForever said:


> When I fist saw this, I thought for sure it was more spam...



I thought for sure, in a forum about speedlite rumors, folks would know what a Chinese gun was


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## Wildfire (Mar 6, 2013)

The Phottix Mitros is now available in the Philippines for 12,000 Philippine Pesos which equals about $300 USD. That seems to be the current street price of a used 580EX II which has the same capabilities.

And unlike Yongnuo they've included a USB port for firmware upgrades. I have Phottix's Strato II radio triggers and I think the build quality is decent and they are 100% reliable (never fails to fire my flashes) so I'll be selling my 430EX II and picking up this as a replacement... (more power and the flash head turns 180 degrees in both directions!)

What do you guys think?

http://journal.phottix.com/company-news/phottix-announces-mitros-ttl-flash/


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## dlleno (Mar 6, 2013)

You're raising an important point, by implication at least. The value proposition of a $300 Phottix is a bit different from that of a $167 Yongnuo. At $300 for a 580ex ii-like featureset I think I'd rather have a 580ex ii. At least the 580 can be repaired/refurbished, I assume. 

There is a price threshold which makes the China-based flash solutions attractive compared to the latest Canon solution. For me, that threshold is a bit lower than $300. That said, the Phottex featureset (including their triggers) is attractive, to be sure, which means that your decision point may be more about features than price. If you value the Phottix featureset and the ability to update the flash in the future, then your decision is pretty much made -- especially if you are already invested in their triggers and have confidence in the promise of updates. The assumption here is that investing $300 today in an updatable Phottix flash will assure compatibiilty with future Canon cameras yet to be announced and which may introduce new things, i.e. a new ETTL version. that, or it assumes that bug fixes are addressed via firmware updates. I don't have any experience with Phottix, but something tells me that the inclusion of a USB port is more about bug fixes than adding new functionality to pace the market. There's no incentive, unless they charge money for firmware updates, for them to add new features to existing hardware. i would think they would rather sell more hardware . In the Phottix model, you pay more up front and expect hardware quality to be commensurate with a long term investment. When you update you get new life out of the same hardware. Kind of like putting new ink into a worn print head. 

The Yongnuo model is different. Future proofing comes in the form of buying a new flash (the Yongnuos are just over half the cost of the Phottix). Yongnuo's quality model emphasizes initial quality and hardware repalcement under warranty, instead of firmware updates. You pay about half the cost up front, compared to Phottix (a third of the cost compared to Canon) leaving dollars on the table to invest in new hardware at a later date. When you update, you buy new hardware. kind of like replacing your ink cartridge instead of re-filling it.


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 7, 2013)

dlleno said:


> Sadly I expect Canon's next move will be some sort of digital key authorization mechanism to lock down the hot-shoe ETTL and HSS communications, preventing the chinese from reverse-engineering their stuff and selling at 1/4 the cost.


I thought Yonguo already has HSS


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## sandymandy (Mar 7, 2013)

Some Yongnuos have HSS, yes.


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## dlleno (Mar 7, 2013)

Rienzphotoz said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly I expect Canon's next move will be some sort of digital key authorization mechanism to lock down the hot-shoe ETTL and HSS communications, preventing the chinese from reverse-engineering their stuff and selling at 1/4 the cost.
> ...



Some do, yes. I don't follow your point yet can you explain what you're driving at?


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 8, 2013)

dlleno said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > dlleno said:
> ...


Not making any point, just checking if one of the Yonguo's had HSS


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## Wildfire (Mar 9, 2013)

dlleno said:


> You're raising an important point, by implication at least. The value proposition of a $300 Phottix is a bit different from that of a $167 Yongnuo. At $300 for a 580ex ii-like featureset I think I'd rather have a 580ex ii. At least the 580 can be repaired/refurbished, I assume.
> 
> There is a price threshold which makes the China-based flash solutions attractive compared to the latest Canon solution. For me, that threshold is a bit lower than $300. That said, the Phottex featureset (including their triggers) is attractive, to be sure, which means that your decision point may be more about features than price. If you value the Phottix featureset and the ability to update the flash in the future, then your decision is pretty much made -- especially if you are already invested in their triggers and have confidence in the promise of updates. The assumption here is that investing $300 today in an updatable Phottix flash will assure compatibiilty with future Canon cameras yet to be announced and which may introduce new things, i.e. a new ETTL version. that, or it assumes that bug fixes are addressed via firmware updates. I don't have any experience with Phottix, but something tells me that the inclusion of a USB port is more about bug fixes than adding new functionality to pace the market. There's no incentive, unless they charge money for firmware updates, for them to add new features to existing hardware. i would think they would rather sell more hardware . In the Phottix model, you pay more up front and expect hardware quality to be commensurate with a long term investment. When you update you get new life out of the same hardware. Kind of like putting new ink into a worn print head.
> 
> The Yongnuo model is different. Future proofing comes in the form of buying a new flash (the Yongnuos are just over half the cost of the Phottix). Yongnuo's quality model emphasizes initial quality and hardware repalcement under warranty, instead of firmware updates. You pay about half the cost up front, compared to Phottix (a third of the cost compared to Canon) leaving dollars on the table to invest in new hardware at a later date. When you update, you buy new hardware. kind of like replacing your ink cartridge instead of re-filling it.



I doubt Phottix would add features via the USB port -- my guess is they will only use it to update the flash to be compatible with new cameras/triggers.

However, Phottix stuff is durable and reliable, and I believe their customer service is good as well (though I've never had to test that out for myself). I trust the Phottix brand to the point where if a Phottix flash's features match a Canon flash but at a lower price, I would just buy the Phottix and not feel like I was settling for an inferior product.

Whereas with Yongnuo, I'd prefer to have the Canon if I could afford it.


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## smithy (Mar 9, 2013)

I've never actually owned a Canon branded speedlite - just a Sigma EF-500 DG Super and the Yongnuo 568EX (the one with HSS).

The Sigma feels like a cheap plastic toy next to the Yongnuo.

If I were shooting weddings professionally I'd probably buy Canon speedlites, but as I'm merely a serious hobbyist Canon would have to drop their prices by at least 50% to entice me to buy their flashes. I just can't see the value proposition of the 600EX-RT at nearly 5 times the price of the 568EX (in my country anyway).


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## Jel_55 (Mar 13, 2013)

I personally can't speak about the Yongnuo, but until recently I used to have a couple of Meike 580. Basically Chinese 580ex copies but with most of the advance functionality removed (and reduced power it seems). 

Like a few other people, I initialy just couldn't rationalise the cost difference between these flash units and Canon's. 

But, in my personal opinion, the old adage "you get what you pay for" is especially pertinent when it comes to flash guns. The Mieke’s I had were horribly inconsistent and unreliable. They rarely worked with other third party radio triggers (in this instance Pixel Kings). I got phenomenally frustrated with the whole set up and nearly lost interest in flash photography as I found the kit so problematic. 

In the end, I sold the lot, saved up the extra cash and bought myself the new 600EX-RT and ST-E3-RT. There is now no pain or anguish – things just work everytime. 

It seems from the forum that others have had better success than I with third party flash equipment. But from my experience, my conclusion was simple - putting a third party flashgun on my 5d Mk III, was like adding a luggage-roof-rack to an Aston Martin – cheap and does the job, but looks ugly and you’d never know what state your luggage (photos) would end up in and you’d always feel like it’s ruining/limiting the performance of the car (camera). 

Not the greatest analogy but hopefully you get the idea!


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## bycostello (Mar 13, 2013)

i like my nissin ones... but not as good as recycle time as me canon ones


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