# Two more EOS R bodies are coming in 2021 [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 30, 2020)

> I have been told that Canon’s roadmap shows two more EOS R bodies are to be announced and released in 2021.
> Both of the cameras were given “internal names”, with no mention of specifications or where the cameras would sit in the lineup.
> If you look at it logically, there are probably 3 possibilities for the three cameras.
> Since there won’t be a direct EOS R replacement (EOS R6 will likely take its place), we can rule out that as a possibility.
> ...



Continue reading...


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## SecureGSM (Apr 30, 2020)

R1 and R5s


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## usern4cr (Apr 30, 2020)

R5s/R3 would be extremely welcome to hear, and I guess we have many months to come of whispers & hints for it. R1 might be more for professionals or those that like a larger body with embedded lower grip (which I don't). The main question for me will occur when the R5 is available to preorder/order, since there may be a higher MP option to wonder about.


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## Del Paso (Apr 30, 2020)

Presently, only 2 R bodies are really missing, namely the R 1 for sports photographers, and the EOS 5 Ds replacement, the EOS Rs.
An additional low-cost R already exists, so, no need for another one.


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## dancan (Apr 30, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> Presently, only 2 R bodies are really missing, namely the R 1 for sports photographers, and the EOS 5 Ds replacement, the EOS Rs.
> An additional low-cost R already exists, so, no need for another one.


This makes much sense and from the two bodies (R1 and Rs) the Rs is even more urgent.


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## Mark3794 (Apr 30, 2020)

Eos R1 with 1Dx Mark III internals and a EOS R5s with a 83 mpx sensor developed from the 32 mpx APS-C.


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## Architect1776 (Apr 30, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



This is great news.
An R6 with 36 MP sensor range would be perfect.
Does not need the hyper speed or 8K but all the AF features included (In fact every R should have that as standard).
Cost: $1,400.00
Just a good solid performer. like the FTb was.
Then a very inexpensive R in the $800.00 range with the AF features and 4K but again all the extra bells and whistles removed.
All MUST have full wireless connectivity though as Canon just showed.


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## Ruiloba (Apr 30, 2020)

R1 will be a dream for wildlife


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## Stuart (Apr 30, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> _but with how the EOS R5 is looking, I could see such a body being pushed further into the future. _



But Sony won't stand still, they are unlikely to abandon the market so will be also releasing a R5 competitor soon.


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## DBounce (Apr 30, 2020)

The R5 will be a preorder for me. I already own the trinity. Hard to know what to make of a R1... my 1DXMK2 was magical... but due to its size and weight it only traveled on deliberate shoots. The size/weight is the EOS R means it goes along for the ride more frequently than the 1 series did.


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## DBounce (Apr 30, 2020)

Stuart said:


> But Sony won't stand still, they are unlikely to abandon the market so will be also releasing a R5 competitor soon.



Sure, but will it bring tech that is so ahead of the R5 that it warrants a switch to E-Mount? I think Sony messed up with the E-mount.. it’s too small to allow for effective IBIS.. they just won’t admit it. Don’t hold your breath for R5 crushing specs from Sony.... you might be disappointed.


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## Sharlin (Apr 30, 2020)

An R1 is not going to come this year. An RP replacement is much, much more likely. The R and RP were always going to be just about getting something to market while continuing to develop the real deals. I wouldn't be surprised if Canon is going to try to get a sub-1k FF camera on the market


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## derpderp (Apr 30, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> R5s/R3 would be extremely welcome to hear, and I guess we have many months to come of whispers & hints for it. R1 would be great, but the price may be a bit more than many, including me, find easy to justify. The main question will occur when the R5 is available to preorder/order, since there may be a higher MP option to wonder about.



$6000-7000 is a good price range i think. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.


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## derpderp (Apr 30, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> This is great news.
> An R6 with 36 MP sensor range would be perfect.
> Does not need the hyper speed or 8K but all the AF features included (In fact every R should have that as standard).
> Cost: $1,400.00 *$1999*
> ...



FTFY. Anything above 24mp and I'd expect the price to be around the $2000 price bracket. Given it's Canon, probably another couple hundred dollars above that.


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## canonnews (Apr 30, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> R1 and R5s



Agreed.

we're going to differ from Craig, and as we suggested in our article on this .. a R1 and an R5s would be the most likely.

Canon got a blessing in disguise from all the nightmares of 2020 - the Olympics moved to 2021.

The R5, while a completely capable body does not have the interconnects and also the ergonomics of a true professional canon camera.

This is an opportunity for Canon - I doubt very much that with another year to the Olympics that they still won't have a sports camera for the games and that they allow Sony to have the only mirrorless sports camera there. (yes I know you can flip up the mirror on the 1DX Mark III.. but it doesn't have a viewfinder then)


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## koch1948 (Apr 30, 2020)

I often read rumors about future EOS R bodies. Does anyone have any rumors about an upcoming EOS 5D Mark V body?


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## bbasiaga (Apr 30, 2020)

Koch,

I think there is a lot of speculation on whether there will even be another 5D body. Or if mirrorless is just the future. We'll see. 

For one of these bodies, could it be the long anticipated 7d successor equivalent? I'm not sure what that would even look like. Something with high speed shutter and increased pixel density, perhaps sacrificing some video features. 

-Brian


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## JustAnotherCanonShooter (Apr 30, 2020)

R3/R5s is what I would like to see. R5 is awesome, no question, but as a still photographer, I just don't need all that 8K video functions, and you bet the R5 will price that in. So instead of paying for something I don't need, I'd much rather throw my money towards a high pixel count, because that's a function that I'd actually use.


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## chasingrealness (Apr 30, 2020)

I’m really excited about the R5, but I only really shoot photos, so an R5s or something of that nature being on the roadmap would definitely make me stop and think about waiting for that to drop. But it would have to have competitive dynamic range, IBIS an equivalent autofocus system to what the R5 is promising for me to really buy in. Maybe I’m just getting lazy but I think AF is a major part of the mirrorless value proposition. Super high resolution is great, but if you don’t nail focus then it’s wasted. Fingers crossed that Canon has finally retired the cripple hammer.


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## i_SH (Apr 30, 2020)

I wonder whose matrix on the MAVO Edge camera (https://www.dpreview.com/news/52730...-cinema-camera-can-shoot-8k-prores-raw-at-up- to-75-fps)?
If the matrix of the R5 camera is at the same level, then the R5S camera will probably be able to provide the same shooting speed of 12/20 fps as the R5 camera?


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## mclaren777 (Apr 30, 2020)

This is making me increasingly nervous about the possibility of a 5DV getting released.


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## Whowe (Apr 30, 2020)

There was a rumor [CR2] that Canon would have four (4) full frame bodies announced this year.









Canon will release four new full-frame cameras in 2020 [CR2]


We have been working hard trying to piece together a Canon roadmap for 2020 in regards to camera bodies, and we think we have most of it figured out. The follow



www.canonrumors.com





One was the 1Dx with two R bodies (R5, R6). That still leave one possibility for this year?!? Or does this rumor indicate that schedule may have slid to 3 this year and 2 next year?

Looking at that Rumor from January, it looks like the 4 that were expected may have been the 3 announced and a new low price option, sub $1000. That would make me think the 2 R bodies next year are the lost cost option and the 83MP R5s/R3 model.


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## BillB (Apr 30, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> I often read rumors about future EOS R bodies. Does anyone have any rumors about an upcoming EOS 5D Mark V body?


No rumors, but some fantasies have been posted.


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## Treyarnon (Apr 30, 2020)

While we don't know the full story on the R5 and R6 - from the latest news it looks like the R5 is going 'up market' from the 5D level - If this is true, then Canon will really need a '5D' level mirrorless.

By this I mean something full frame, awesome image quality, 5D level ruggedness, good AF system and dual card slots - and on the market somewhere around the £3k point, plus or minus a bit. [If the R5 is approaching the £4k price point, then this is not the '5D' level that we all know and love - and would also give lie to the idea that video specs doesn't drive the price point].


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## IcyBergs (Apr 30, 2020)

Treyarnon said:


> While we don't know the full story on the R5 and R6 - from the latest news it looks like the R5 is going 'up market' from the 5D level - If this is true, then Canon will really need a '5D' level mirrorless.
> 
> By this I mean something full frame, awesome image quality, 5D level ruggedness, good AF system and dual card slots - and on the market somewhere around the £3k point, plus or minus a bit. [If the R5 is approaching the £4k price point, then this is not the '5D' level that we all know and love - and would also give lie to the idea that video specs doesn't drive the price point].



Canon has said the R5 is a 5D level mirrorless.


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## Bert63 (Apr 30, 2020)

Never mind all that - open pre-orders for the R5 so I can start complaining about my ship date.


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## usern4cr (Apr 30, 2020)

DBounce said:


> Sure, but will it bring tech that is so ahead of the R5 that it warrants a switch to E-Mount? I think Sony messed up with the E-mount.. it’s too small to allow for effective IBIS.. they just won’t admit it. Don’t hold your breath for R5 crushing specs from Sony.... you might be disappointed.


I don't agree with the gist of your comments. Sony doesn't have to convince Canon people to switch to Sony - they already have the biggest share of FF mirrorless and are going strong. While Sony's smaller E mount is restrictive for the most ideal FF lens design, they have developed surprisingly excellent lenses across the vertical market from affordable to professional. Their willingness to open their mount to other lens makers has allowed the addition of Sigma, Tamron, Zeiss and others which has brought even more appealing and affordable lenses to their lineup. IMHO their combined extensive lens lineup will be their strongest selling point for years to come. They have also developed excellent eye tracking AF, high quality sensors at a wide range of resolutions, and (arguably) competent enough bodies at a wide vertical range of cost. While I agree that their IBIS is not as competent as others, they have shown that over time they can and will improve it.

However, I have grown to absolutely love and rely upon a fully articulating screen and that alone means I will not consider buying into the (current) Sony FF system. I also have heard too many reports of the lower build quality in their bodies, with significant problems with their sensors continually attracting dust, poor water sealing, uncomfortable ergonomics to many, and their menu system is much more randomly scattered and frustrating than it should be.

I am looking forward to Canon's imminent R5 and hopeful R5s/R3 to buy into their system with better build quality & ergonomics, fully articulating screen and even better top end lenses. Hopefully I will continue to be delighted with their system for decades to come.

In FF mirrorless I don't see Canon overtaking Sony easily or quickly, but I do see them fighting it out for years to come. It will make Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic and Fuji(below & above FF) have to improve their systems continuously to stay competitive. And all of us photographers (still buying traditional cameras) will be happy no matter which system we have.


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## Ozarker (Apr 30, 2020)

Stuart said:


> But Sony won't stand still, they are unlikely to abandon the market so will be also releasing a R5 competitor soon.


Sony doesn’t have to leave the market. The market just simply leaves Sony, or not. The ILC market was already abysmal before the virus. Now the whole world economy is in the abyss.


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## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Apr 30, 2020)

*Canon leap-frogged to 8K video ... what about a high resolution 5DSR replacement that isn't just 100 megapixels, but pushes to 200 megapixels?

And I'd see little need for video features .. but either way is fine.*


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## mpmark (Apr 30, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> R1 and R5s



Not a chance for R1 yet, the 1Dx just got released.


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## David the street guy (Apr 30, 2020)

JustAnotherCanonShooter said:


> R3/R5s is what I would like to see. R5 is awesome, no question, but as a still photographer, I just don't need all that 8K video functions, and you bet the R5 will price that in. So instead of paying for something I don't need, I'd much rather throw my money towards a high pixel count, because that's a function that I'd actually use.





chasingrealness said:


> I’m really excited about the R5, but I only really shoot photos, so an R5s or something of that nature being on the roadmap would definitely make me stop and think about waiting for that to drop. But it would have to have competitive dynamic range, IBIS an equivalent autofocus system to what the R5 is promising for me to really buy in. Maybe I’m just getting lazy but I think AF is a major part of the mirrorless value proposition. Super high resolution is great, but if you don’t nail focus then it’s wasted. Fingers crossed that Canon has finally retired the cripple hammer.



This is also how I feel about the new R5.

I've been waiting for something like this camera, but I won't buy it, because I don't need (and don't want to pay for) all these video capabilities.

I hope Canon will listen to the needs of all those photographers who don't vlog or video. There is certainly a place in the market for a camera really photography-orientated (is this a word?), with all it's technology invested towards that goal. And I want it as robust as a hammer!


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## Paul6 (Apr 30, 2020)

R5 stils only would be perfect for me, all the video stripped out, and hopefully a reduced price


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## mpmark (Apr 30, 2020)

R6 - fast lower budget birders/sports
R5 - does it all
R5s - a studio and landscape dream (high MP, lower shutter speeds)


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## canonnews (Apr 30, 2020)

JustAnotherCanonShooter said:


> R3/R5s is what I would like to see. R5 is awesome, no question, but as a still photographer, I just don't need all that 8K video functions, and you bet the R5 will price that in. So instead of paying for something I don't need, I'd much rather throw my money towards a high pixel count, because that's a function that I'd actually use.



side note.

I have no idea who started this R3 stuff.

I really doubt it will EVER be an R3. wouldn't even make sense.


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## canonnews (Apr 30, 2020)

Whowe said:


> There was a rumor [CR2] that Canon would have four (4) full frame bodies announced this year.
> 
> http://[URL][URL]https://www.canonr...ease-four-new-full-frame-cameras-in-2020-cr2/[/URL][/URL]
> 
> ...


except the R1 was already "told" last September to japan newspapers that the flagship 1 series camera was coming in 2021.
also a race to the bottom isn't great for profits.
Canon wants to convince people to come from the EF mount. obviously cheap (see RP) didnt' really do much to help that.


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## canonnews (Apr 30, 2020)

Paul6 said:


> R5 stils only would be perfect for me, all the video stripped out, and hopefully a reduced price



stills only would be crippled for stills if you wanted it cheaper, otherwise.. just don't use the video?


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## canonnews (Apr 30, 2020)

David the street guy said:


> This is also how I feel about the new R5.
> 
> I've been waiting for something like this camera, but I won't buy it, because I don't need (and don't want to pay for) all these video capabilities.
> 
> I hope Canon will listen to the needs of all those photographers who don't vlog or video. There is certainly a place in the market for a camera really photography-orientated (is this a word?), with all it's technology invested towards that goal. And I want it as robust as a hammer!


this isn't reality though. there's not much in an R5 that is "video only" and you're not really paying for "those video features".

https://www.canonnews.com/public-outcry-too-much-video-in-the-canon-eos-r5


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## davidhfe (Apr 30, 2020)

canonnews said:


> side note.
> 
> I have no idea who started this R3 stuff.
> 
> I really doubt it will EVER be an R3. wouldn't even make sense.



Agree that a "R5s" is more likely just due to history (1Ds, 5Ds) but slotting a very high megapixel camera (if canon goes with a monster 120+ sensor in this case) in between the 5 and the 1 would seem to make sense, especially if the price needs to be above the 5.

Canon has the opportunity to revamp their scheme (aside from the 1 and 5, which have strong market associations). If there was market confusion about the 5/5s, this would resolve it.


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## Deleted member 68328 (Apr 30, 2020)

Thanks Craig!
Any news whether the 5D Mark V is coming? Also, do you think we can expect the voice memo feature that the R5 seems to have?
Thanks.


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## bbasiaga (Apr 30, 2020)

canonnews said:


> this isn't reality though. there's not much in an R5 that is "video only" and you're not really paying for "those video features".
> 
> https://www.canonnews.com/public-outcry-too-much-video-in-the-canon-eos-r5


I suppose one argurment could be they could maintain the 20fps with a lower powered (presumably less expensive) processor and heat removal system, cheaper card slots,etc. But I suspect that the pricing of these components are only a very small factor in the final price determination. 

-Brian


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## BillB (Apr 30, 2020)

Paul6 said:


> R5 stils only would be perfect for me, all the video stripped out, and hopefully a reduced price


If you are looking for a good stills camera and don’t want to spend a lot of money the Canon R is worth a look. Rugged and a lot of frames per second would cost money, whether or not the put the video in.


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## SecureGSM (Apr 30, 2020)

mpmark said:


> Not a chance for R1 yet, the 1Dx just got released.


Oh yeah... there is a chance. a Low latency EVF, 20+ FPS /w mechanical shutter, True silent, low rolling electronic shutter, 1 series ergonomics and ruggedness, excellent AF Including R5 level eye AF, will ensure that 1D product line is a history.
1Dx III is the last of its kind. it Was released as Canon needed a flagship rig for 2020 Olympics and it was obviously in development long time before R5. So why not?
there is something else that has not been quite discussed yet. I recall a Canon engineer mentioned in an interview that RF mount capabilities have not been truly unleashed yet. I expect that upcoming RF telephoto primes will utilise yet to be revealed fast auto focusing capabilities and further improved tracking. Likely will require multiple AF motors And dual focusing group. Anyway.. this will further accelerate R1 adoption.
R1 will likely be somewhat more expensive than 1dx3 At around $6,950.00-$7,250.00 RRP
1dx 03 will continue selling well at around $4,800-$5500 price and will remain to be the major differentiator and a consideration for 1D to R1 upgraders and net new 1 series buyers including cross brand upgrades.


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## herein2020 (Apr 30, 2020)

R5s (high megapixel R) and something to replace the RP is my vote. The R6 is clearly more video focused with the 20MP sensor, but it leaves a resolution gap in the product line as well as a place for an entry level FF (1 card slot, 26MP resolution, 4K30FPS video, $1499 price tag)

IMO an R1 release would be too soon after the 1DXIII release...it would cannibalize their 1DXIII sales and would be a second niche body that would only appeal to a select few; even fewer when you take into account that you would have to get the sports shooters to switch to an EVF and do they even have a sports R mount lens (100mm-400mm) in their lineup yet? Nothing makes sense about releasing an R1 so soon.

What makes sense to me is leaving the RP for their entry level FF until a refresh next year and adding a high resolution option for landscape photographers the same year.

I'm sticking to my original predictions list and adding dates and prices


R1 - 1DX Mirrorless Replacement (2023+)
R5 - 5D Replacement (2020) ($4999)
R5S - 5DS Replacement (2021) ($5200)
R6 - Video focused body but with less resolution to protect the R5 (2020) ($2499)
R8 - Entry level FF Canon Mirrorless (aka RP Mark II) (2021) ($1499)


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## cayenne (Apr 30, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> I often read rumors about future EOS R bodies. Does anyone have any rumors about an upcoming EOS 5D Mark V body?



I"m putting my money on the bet that there never will be one....the "5" series, mostly likely ...is going mirrorless only from here on.

At least, that's my best guess. I don't see them doing any further work on new EF lenses either, although the currently ones will continue to be manufactured and supported for awhile to come, but I think the writing is on the wall for the future of DSLRs for Canon going forward and it isn't a positive one.

Just my $0.02,

cayenne


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## Architect1776 (Apr 30, 2020)

derpderp said:


> FTFY. Anything above 24mp and I'd expect the price to be around the $2000 price bracket. Given it's Canon, probably another couple hundred dollars above that.



Possible, but I can dream Canon just overpowering on price as well to flood the market especially with the mid level camera on price.


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## SecureGSM (Apr 30, 2020)

canonnews said:


> side note.
> 
> I have no idea who started this R3 stuff.
> 
> I really doubt it will EVER be an R3. wouldn't even make sense.


Canon made their decision the moment R5 / R6 naming conversion was announced. 
5s / 5sR branding is a well recognised name. Why would Canon drop what works and invest in a new R3 convention?
There is no point..


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## cayenne (Apr 30, 2020)

David the street guy said:


> This is also how I feel about the new R5.
> 
> I've been waiting for something like this camera, but I won't buy it, because I don't need (and don't want to pay for) all these video capabilities.
> 
> I hope Canon will listen to the needs of all those photographers who don't vlog or video. There is certainly a place in the market for a camera really photography-orientated (is this a word?), with all it's technology invested towards that goal. And I want it as robust as a hammer!




This has been beat to death on another thread.

The video capabilities do not add really an appreciable cost to the camera, in fact...the video features may be driving strides FOR the still functionality.

And remember, we've yet to hear exactly what the stills specs will be on this puppy....the last release was the one that should have been at the video conference (NAB?)....so they had that all ready to go.

Let's be a bit patient to hear when they release the stills specs and see where it was.

Did you also not want the 5D2 or the 5D3 because it had video capabilities you'd not use?

These days....and again this was on the other thread....there's really not much of a market other than very niche for cameras that are ONLY stills with no appreciable video capabilities built in. If they did a stills ONLY camera, chances are it would be more $$$ that the hybrid ones, since it is more niche market and would not have the pricing advantage of volume sales.

HTH,

C


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## davidhfe (Apr 30, 2020)

bbasiaga said:


> I suppose one argurment could be they could maintain the 20fps with a lower powered (presumably less expensive) processor and heat removal system, cheaper card slots,etc. But I suspect that the pricing of these components are only a very small factor in the final price determination.
> 
> -Brian



The 20fps and 30fps are going to be roughly equivalent in terms of load. Remember the 30fps video is sampling a smaller number of pixels (DCI 8K is like 35mp) and the video, mechanical, and electronic modes may all have different bit depths as well. Additionally, the class-leading AF I am expecting out of the R5 is also going to be very processor intensive.

The bottom line that CN was making in the original post, you probably need roughly the same read and processing performance for the stills and video modes. There's very little extra BOM cost to add video once you have a camera with these stills specs.


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## Jack Douglas (Apr 30, 2020)

M. D. Vaden of Oregon said:


> *Canon leap-frogged to 8K video ... what about a high resolution 5DSR replacement that isn't just 100 megapixels, but pushes to 200 megapixels?
> 
> And I'd see little need for video features .. but either way is fine.*



*And I'd see little need for 200 MP ...* 

Jack


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## AEWest (Apr 30, 2020)

cayenne said:


> This has been beat to death on another thread.
> 
> The video capabilities do not add really an appreciable cost to the camera, in fact...the video features may be driving strides FOR the still functionality.
> 
> ...


I agree - improvements in video only add to stills capability, eg higher frame rates, more sophisticated autofocus.


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## Drcampbellicu (Apr 30, 2020)

For years this forum made fun of ibis and mirrorless 
It’s fun to see how the forum users now see a benefit to ibis and can finally see that mirrorless is the future

in just another year or so we will see folks adapt to the smaller bodies as well. the R5 is a break from the bulky slr bodies that folks swear is the only way forward




DBounce said:


> Sure, but will it bring tech that is so ahead of the R5 that it warrants a switch to E-Mount? I think Sony messed up with the E-mount.. it’s too small to allow for effective IBIS.. they just won’t admit it. Don’t hold your breath for R5 crushing specs from Sony.... you might be disappointed.


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## herein2020 (Apr 30, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> For years this forum made fun of ibis and mirrorless
> It’s fun to see how the forum users now see a benefit to ibis and can finally see that mirrorless is the future
> 
> in just another year or so we will see folks adapt to the smaller bodies as well. the R5 is a break from the bulky slr bodies that folks swear is the only way forward



I still do not like mirrorless for photography and couldn't care less about IBIS for photography either. I am not a fan of the EVF especially the lag, mirrorless battery life, camera size, or pretty much anything mirrorless for photography. Also, no one has mentioned eye fatigue...staring at a tiny LCD screen so close to your eye for hours on end has to be more tiring than a more natural OVF. I love my 5DIV and will keep it until the mirror goes out.

With that being said, mirrorless is fantastic for video, I don't use the EVF, video is usually short clips anyway so battery life isn't as much a problem, and for longer events you can usually plug into a power source somewhere. Also, the small size is great for gimbal work; which is why I love reading about the R5's features but plan on getting the R6 and the C200. For the work I do, a lot of b roll is shot handheld (no time to setup and balance a gimbal) so IBIS is important to me as well.

The major shortcomings of my GH5 is AF, currently I have to shoot everything using manual focus, the color science out of the GH5 is terrible except in perfect lighting, and in low light it gets noisy fast even when using ETTR; so getting DPAF, 4K60FPS, dual card slots, Canon color science, and a 20MP sensor in a mirrorless body is a big deal to me.


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## Pixel (Apr 30, 2020)

I still think the R1 is a no-brainer and now with the Olympics pushed back, that makes 2021 a perfect launch year for a pro mirrorless.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 30, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> For years this forum made fun of ibis and mirrorless
> It’s fun to see how the forum users now see a benefit to ibis and can finally see that mirrorless is the future
> 
> in just another year or so we will see folks adapt to the smaller bodies as well. the R5 is a break from the bulky slr bodies that folks swear is the only way forward


Although I have owned M’s since they came out I am under no illusions about MILC or DSLR limitations and see myself owning both for the foreseeable future because each has strengths and weaknesses, I hate EVF lag and limited DR and the point at which EVF’s have the latency and DR our eyes do is outside my lifetime.

IBIS is just another feature, I’ve gotten along without it fine for the last 40+ years but when I get it I’ll happily use it, however it won‘t be the deciding factor on what model of camera I do get.


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## Eclipsed (Apr 30, 2020)

Stuart said:


> But Sony won't stand still, they are unlikely to abandon the market so will be also releasing a R5 competitor soon.



Sounds like Sony will be chasing Canon now, instead of the other way around.


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## scyrene (Apr 30, 2020)

chasingrealness said:


> Fingers crossed that Canon has finally retired the cripple hammer.



Fingers crossed people retire that awful phrase.


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## [pod] (Apr 30, 2020)

Canon looks like is being embraced.


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## mpmark (Apr 30, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Oh yeah... there is a chance. a Low latency EVF, 20+ FPS /w mechanical shutter, True silent, low rolling electronic shutter, 1 series ergonomics and ruggedness, excellent AF Including R5 level eye AF, will ensure that 1D product line is a history.
> 1Dx III is the last of its kind. it Was released as Canon needed a flagship rig for 2020 Olympics and it was obviously in development long time before R5. So why not?
> there is something else that has not been quite discussed yet. I recall a Canon engineer mentioned in an interview that RF mount capabilities have not been truly unleashed yet. I expect that upcoming RF telephoto primes will utilise yet to be revealed fast auto focusing capabilities and further improved tracking. Likely will require multiple AF motors And dual focusing group. Anyway.. this will further accelerate R1 adoption.
> R1 will likely be somewhat more expensive than 1dx3 At around $6,950.00-$7,250.00 RRP
> 1dx 03 will continue selling well at around $4,800-$5500 price and will remain to be the major differentiator and a consideration for 1D to R1 upgraders and net new 1 series buyers including cross brand upgrades.



So why not? I don't know, maybe cause Canon invests in a new camera system every 4 years to get a return? They will NOT release a new flagship and then cannibalize it. that is BAD business practice.
If that doesn't make sense to you I don't know what does. Please give me an example when Canon has released a new camera and then less then a year later out did it. We are seeing the 5D equivalent for the mirrorless line because the 5D is due for refresh, so is the 6D, the refresh is happening in mirrorless mount. The 1D line just got a refresh, wont happen my friend.


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## melgross (Apr 30, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> This is great news.
> An R6 with 36 MP sensor range would be perfect.
> Does not need the hyper speed or 8K but all the AF features included (In fact every R should have that as standard).
> Cost: $1,400.00
> ...


I thought we already knew that the R6 would have a 20mp sensor. If so, how could it replace the R with a 30mp sensor. Where does this 36mp sensor for the R6 come from, other than your desire for it?


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## melgross (Apr 30, 2020)

Stuart said:


> But Sony won't stand still, they are unlikely to abandon the market so will be also releasing a R5 competitor soon.


Sony can’t abandon the market because they effectively have nothing else.


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## davidhfe (Apr 30, 2020)

melgross said:


> I thought we already knew that the R6 would have a 20mp sensor. If so, how could it replace the R with a 30mp sensor. Where does this 36mp sensor for the R6 come from, other than your desire for it?



The general consensus is that the R's sensor was heavily derived from the 5D4's, as opposed to any master plan about what MP is "right" for that segment. It could simply be that the R nameplate will be "retired" and not "replaced". I do think that the R6's sensor at 20mp seems low, but the reality is canon can't create a sensor for every camera, and 20-26mp is becoming a pretty standard resolution across a lot of prosumer and above bodies (Fuji XT, A7II/II, Z6, even Leica) so as long as the R6 has additional features to make up for being at the low end of the MP heap it should be fine. 12/20 shooting, class leading AF, lots of 4K modes would certainly do the trick.

It would also more clearly differentiate the R5's sensor. The 5D4's bump was nice, but 30 was a sort of weird resolution at the time. Not low enough to give the camera serious speed vs competitors, not high enough to differentiate from a raft of 24mp sensors. Remember that unlike previous canon models, the R5 and R6 are rumored to have equivalent shooting speeds, so differentiation on MP is more important than in the past.


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## ColinJR (Apr 30, 2020)

In an ideal scenario (for me), an R5 would be a great companion to an R5s. As is, I'll be lucky to afford an R5 to complement my R... But who am I kidding? I'm not going to want to use the R after upgrading!


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## davidhfe (Apr 30, 2020)

melgross said:


> Sony can’t abandon the market because they effectively have nothing else.



I'm sure PS5 webcams would sell well


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## davidhfe (Apr 30, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Fingers crossed people retire that awful phrase.



Please let this be the case. Not only is it naive, it's super problematic.


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## herein2020 (Apr 30, 2020)

melgross said:


> Sony can’t abandon the market because they effectively have nothing else.


Technically Sony could....they have everything else from TVs to Playstations. Even if they never make another camera they will still make money off of the sensors that they sell to camera makers. If this camera venture starts becoming unprofitable I can definitely see them moving on. I don't think it will happen anytime soon but I definitely think cameras are a very small part of their total revenue.


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## Juangrande (Apr 30, 2020)

Stuart said:


> But Sony won't stand still, they are unlikely to abandon the market so will be also releasing a R5 competitor soon.


Except it will be too small in the hands, have poor ergonomics, lousy menu system, and smaller lens mount so harder to design quality glass. If Canon can close the small DR gap then Sony has no advantage really. The eye focus which is now universal with the top 3 brands and a slight bump in DR were the only advantage they had. I’ll stick with Canon.


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## davidhfe (Apr 30, 2020)

Juangrande said:


> Except it will be too small in the hands, have poor ergonomics, lousy menu system, and smaller lens mount so harder to design quality glass. If Canon can close the small DR gap then Sony has no advantage really. The eye focus which is now universal with the top 3 brands and a slight bump in DR were the only advantage they had. I’ll stick with Canon.



And honestly, Canon closed the DR gap sufficiently with the 5D4 sensor. I will always take more DR (please!) but at this point the ~half stop advantage at base ISOs is going to be less important than the rest of the camera's features. This whole "canon DR sucks" thing is a hold over from the 5D3 (and, lol, my 60D which was banding city even at a 2 stop push).


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## londonxt (Apr 30, 2020)

Oh R3 how I long for you


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## BillB (Apr 30, 2020)

melgross said:


> Sony can’t abandon the market because they effectively have nothing else.


Well, Sony has walked away from several things over the years.


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## cayenne (Apr 30, 2020)

londonxt said:


> Oh R3 how I long for you



Ok, I must have missed something.

Is there a "R3" that has been announced? IF so can someone point me to the links so I can read up on what the specs on THAT are going to be?

Is this supposed to be something above the R5?


C


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## Doug7131 (Apr 30, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> in just another year or so we will see folks adapt to the smaller bodies as well. the R5 is a break from the bulky slr bodies that folks swear is the only way forward


Thanks for letting us know. Unfortunately, the last checked my hands were the same size as they were when I bought my 7D which I find extremely comfortable to hold for long periods of time. The ergonomics of a camera, is for me, the most important aspect of a camera. It’s the reason I will never buy a Sony body until they create a camera that doesn’t have the ergonomics of a brick.


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## londonxt (Apr 30, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Ok, I must have missed something.
> 
> Is there a "R3" that has been announced? IF so can someone point me to the links so I can read up on what the specs on THAT are going to be?
> 
> ...



I owned the legend that was the EOS 3, have been waiting for digital version ever since!


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## VICYASA (Apr 30, 2020)

Who cares what the "names" are or numbers... 5s 6s, 7s... We aren't fisting each other, gentleman. SPECS. That's what matters!


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## londonxt (Apr 30, 2020)

Its about blood line, I want to taste eye controlled focussing again!


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## scyrene (Apr 30, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> For years this forum made fun of ibis and mirrorless
> It’s fun to see how the forum users now see a benefit to ibis and can finally see that mirrorless is the future
> 
> in just another year or so we will see folks adapt to the smaller bodies as well. the R5 is a break from the bulky slr bodies that folks swear is the only way forward



This is a rather biased account of what has been said on the forum for the past few years. Nobody made fun of IBIS, and most people accepted the tenet 'mirrorless is the future'. Some people questioned if IBIS was necessary given Canon's excellent in-lens IS, and especially reacted negatively to people coming here and saying if Canon did not add IBIS (and other features competing brands had) then they were ******* etc. As for the future being mirrorless, it was declared imminent at least ten years ago, but still hasn't come to pass. Most people were not saying never, but when? Certainly not until now, and probably not for a little while yet.

As for size, there are good reasons to favour bigger bodies. If you think 'mirrorless = small' and 'small = better' then you've neither considered the fundamentals of mirrorless much, nor do you do more than a subset of types of photography. Hint: big lenses don't balance well on tiny bodies (heat dissipation and battery size are other factors, though less so as time goes on).


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## mpmark (Apr 30, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> This is great news.
> An R6 with 36 MP sensor range would be perfect.
> Does not need the hyper speed or 8K but all the AF features included (In fact every R should have that as standard).
> Cost: $1,400.00
> ...



The R6 is reported to be 24MP, plastic body, 12/20fps, not as high MP as you mention.


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## victorshikhman (Apr 30, 2020)

After all is said and done, the original R is going to be a very affordable, mid-range do it all workhorse for years to come. All these new bodies coming along are going to be great, but pricey. Only thing really missing from the R is a joystick and IBIS, but lens+electronic stabilization will be good enough for most scenarios. I'll be happy to pick up a refurb for $1k-1200 once all you deep-pocket hotshots upgrade to the R5/R6/R1


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## SteveC (Apr 30, 2020)

mpmark said:


> The R6 is reported to be 24MP, plastic body, 12/20fps, not as high MP as you mention.



No, it's reported as 20MP.

He's expressing a wish they'd bump the sensor size. I wish they would, too. As it is right now, given the choice between an R6 with that sensor and an RP, I'll take the RP.

Hopefully the R5 is priced such that, that won't be an issue.


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## H. Jones (Apr 30, 2020)

I really think Canon has the right idea with the R5. I was never a mirrorless fan, tried the A9 when it got released and did not enjoy that experience at all, but last June my workplace picked up an EOS R and I've used it on almost all of my slower-paced assignments. In difficult lighting situations absolutely nothing compares to the EVF, which have gotten really good at this point and I'm excited to see the R5 viewfinder. The EOS R's crippling flaw to me as to why I never got one was always the ergonomics(touchbar/D-pad), single SD card slot, and the viewfinder delay after shooting.

Realizing that even 8K raw on the R5 has DPAF, I'm entirely sure at this point that this camera will be capable of doing no-delay full DPAF during 20 FPS silent shooting. It makes perfect sense, 30 FPS with AF in 8k vs 20 FPS with AF at 45mp would be a pretty even tradeoff, 10 FPS in exchange for the full resolution of the sensor. At the very least, I can't imagine 12 FPS will have a delay, and that by far already beats my 5D mark III.

One of the smart things with the R5 is that the 5D series is much more capable of being taken over by mirrorless than even the 1D right now. I've been considering a replacement for my 5D mark III for a long time, and had been starting to get tempted by the 5D mark IVs we use at work. Though I'm a diehard fan of my 1DX mark II, I would love a smaller body to always keep on me and for travel/family, and already the R with the 35mm f/1.8 is really not much bigger than the Fuji X100V, which is a camera I was considering picking up solely for those uses. The 5D mark III isn't very fun to shoot sports with anyway and is relegated to just being my wide angle camera on any fast action, so even if the EOS R5 can't keep up with my 1DX I'm sure it will totally blow the 5D mark III out of the water in those uses and be a great second body to the 1DX or primary body on vacation.


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## Jack Douglas (Apr 30, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Although I have owned M’s since they came out I am under no illusions about MILC or DSLR limitations and see myself owning both for the foreseeable future because each has strengths and weaknesses, I hate EVF lag and limited DR and the point at which EVF’s have the latency and DR our eyes do is outside my lifetime.
> 
> IBIS is just another feature, I’ve gotten along without it fine for the last 40+ years but when I get it I’ll happily use it, however it won‘t be the deciding factor on what model of camera I do get.



Exactly. And those that defended DSLRs in the past were reacting largely to asinine comments from some folk who's daddy/mommy must have had shares in some mirrorless company. By and large CR folk are just reasonable and not prone to jumping on/off bandwagons. Both formats have a place for now. 

BTW older eyes don't tolerate as much as younger eyes and we have yet to see the effect of long term screen viewing on populations.

Jack


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## CTJohn (Apr 30, 2020)

No one mentioning a mirrorless version of the 7D. Why not? I've got to think there's a market for a very high frame rate mirrorless, even with a cropped sensor.


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## mpb001 (Apr 30, 2020)

I am reading a lot about an assortment of various R and M series cameras supposedly coming out in 2020, but except for the R5 and possibly R6, I see little information or proposed release dates. The R6 is supposed to come out in May 2020, however I have not seen any images of this phantom model. I think that Canon should focus on what they can realistically offer the public in 2020 before they start talking about 2021. I realize that the world has changed in only a few months due to the virus. Maybe Canon and others should just shelve the idea of releasing cameras this year altogether. Its not like people really need these cameras and since travel has been curtailed, not a lot of travel photography will probably happen until 2021 anyway. Just my opinion.


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## Jack Douglas (Apr 30, 2020)

mpb001 said:


> I am reading a lot about an assortment of various R and M series cameras supposedly coming out in 2020, but except for the R5 and possibly R6, I see little information or proposed release dates. The R6 is supposed to come out in May 2020, however I have not seen any images of this phantom model. I think that Canon should focus on what they can realistically offer the public in 2020 before they start talking about 2021. I realize that the world has changed in only a few months due to the virus. Maybe Canon and others should just shelve the idea of releasing cameras this year altogether. Its not like people really need these cameras and since travel has been curtailed, not a lot of travel photography will probably happen until 2021 anyway. Just my opinion.


Wow, how would you know what people need? 

Jack


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## AEWest (Apr 30, 2020)

CTJohn said:


> No one mentioning a mirrorless version of the 7D. Why not? I've got to think there's a market for a very high frame rate mirrorless, even with a cropped sensor.


I don't believe they will ever come out with RF-S type cropped sensor lenses. At the time, full frame sensors were very expensive to manufacture so it made sense to have another type of more affordable camera lens combo.

With the current contraction in the camera market (even prior to Covid), it makes little sense to come out with yet another lens line. EOS-M will be the mirrorless crop camera from Canon going forward.


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## researcher (Apr 30, 2020)

Since we're at the Speculation Carnival, I'm gonna aim my dart at the prospect of an R7 - APSC version. It won't have all the features and functions of the top end, but will allow legacy crop sensor camera users to use their lenses with the new body/R-system. M-system, schmem system...


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## navastronia (Apr 30, 2020)

I'm cool with the R1 landing in 2021, or even later, but Canon would be wise to think about how long they really want to cede the pro mirrorless world to other brands.


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## Juangrande (Apr 30, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> And honestly, Canon closed the DR gap sufficiently with the 5D4 sensor. I will always take more DR (please!) but at this point the ~half stop advantage at base ISOs is going to be less important than the rest of the camera's features. This whole "canon DR sucks" thing is a hold over from the 5D3 (and, lol, my 60D which was banding city even at a 2 stop push).


And for me personally I almost never shoot without off camera strobes even outdoors so DR isn’t an issue for the way I work anyway.


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## Kit. (Apr 30, 2020)

researcher said:


> Since we're at the Speculation Carnival, I'm gonna aim my dart at the prospect of an R7 - APSC version..


Then R8 as a MFT version and R9 as a 1" version.


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## reefroamer (Apr 30, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I don't believe they will ever come out with RF-S type cropped sensor lenses. At the time, full frame sensors were very expensive to manufacture so it made sense to have another type of more affordable camera lens combo.
> 
> With the current contraction in the camera market (even prior to Covid), it makes little sense to come out with yet another lens line. EOS-M will be the mirrorless crop camera from Canon going forward.


With the EF-RF adapter, is there any reason the existing EF-S lenses (eg. 10-22m, 18-135mm) couldn’t be used on a crop-sensor R body? I can use both of these EF-S lenses , with the adapter, on my RP body. I would think the same would apply for use with a crop sensor R-mount body that could be equivalent to a 7D3. Use the M6II sensor. Canon would not have to commit to special crop lenses on a crop R body. Seems like most people here really want a crop R body for the extra reach with telephoto EF or RF glass. Nevertheless, Canon my be finished with crop sensor bodies outside the EOS-M lineup.


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## AEWest (Apr 30, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> With the EF-RF adapter, is there any reason the existing EF-S lenses (eg. 10-22m, 18-135mm) couldn’t be used on a crop-sensor R body? I can use both of these EF-S lenses , with the adapter, on my RP body. I would think the same would apply for use with a crop sensor R-mount body that could be equivalent to a 7D3. Canon would not have to commit to special crop lenses on a crop R body. Seems like most people here really want a crop R body for the extra reach with telephoto EF or RF glass. Nevertheless, Canon my be finished with crop sensor bodies outside the EOS-M lineup.


I believe Canon would like to whittle down the number of mounts from four to two in the next few years - RF and M for their ILCs.


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## Kit. (Apr 30, 2020)

reefroamer said:


> With the EF-RF adapter, is there any reason the existing EF-S lenses (eg. 10-22m, 18-135mm) couldn’t be used on a crop-sensor R body?


Yes, and the reason is the lack of a crop-sensor R body.



reefroamer said:


> Canon would not have to commit to special crop lenses on a crop R body.


Canon does not have to commit to a crop R body as well, if those lenses still work on a FF R body in the crop mode.


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## RobbieHat (May 1, 2020)

Ruiloba said:


> R1 will be a dream for wildlife


I think the specs on the R5 are already a dream for wildlife photographers. I am certainly planning to buy it and use it for that. What more are you seeking for a wildlife rig?


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## Ruiloba (May 1, 2020)

RobbieHat said:


> I think the specs on the R5 are already a dream for wildlife photographers. I am certainly planning to buy it and use it for that. What more are you seeking for a wildlife rig?



High detail even in high iso where most of the wildlifer's strugle (like from 1600 and above) wich comes with less megapixels sensor as the 1dx does. Mpx also deals with us as we usually try to burst a bird in flight (for example) and this means a lot of photos wich traduces into a lot of GB and PC load times, needs for bigger storage in the PC and bigger cards for the camera .. Less megapixels also helps with the buffer.. And probably helps also to better fps on the viewfinder for better tracking.

More robust body to compensate the weight of long lenses. Bigger battery with more volts for faster focusing.... It involves a lot of things..

Oh god and please! Better frame rate when the flash/trigger is connected! Also the ability to shot in silent shutter with flash/trigger


Im sure im skipping some things but that ones comes to my mind right now..

Btw : we are still waiting for those big whites on Rf and the 2x and 1.4x teleconverters. The Rf 100-500 at 7.1 is so limited

R5 bigger pro's are that those who crop their photos (i try to avoid..) have more room and also the inbody 1.6x gives you a nice 18mpx for those who need extra reach and dont crop or cant crop (like for contest)


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## Aussie shooter (May 1, 2020)

You would have to Assume an R1 and a hi res R5. I think the RP remains as a decent entry level RF body for now and does not need to be given an immediate facelift. Or in theory canon may even be able to lower the price of the original R and have that as an entry level model and the R as a bargin basement entry level model. But I still think they need a crop sensor 'R7'. But I get the feeling they have chosen not to go down that path. So I could see the lineup being R1, R5, R5s, R6, Ra, R and/or RP.


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## mpb001 (May 1, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Wow, how would you know what people need?
> 
> Jack


You are right. I probably should have said what people want. People always want something...


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## Aussie shooter (May 1, 2020)

RobbieHat said:


> I think the specs on the R5 are already a dream for wildlife photographers. I am certainly planning to buy it and use it for that. What more are you seeking for a wildlife rig?


It's a build quality thing. There are others as well but an R1 will be a tank. I am sure the R5 will be tough but it wont be as tough.


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## davo (May 1, 2020)

My choice would be an R5L......Same camera with No 8K, No 4K120, Lower megapixels sensor for incredible low light performance. ( Could even lose the CFexpress) that's my dream camera. The R6 lacks the design features of the R5 I want ( I'm using a 5DIII currently)


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## Cat_Interceptor (May 1, 2020)

A genuine replacement for the 7D II. Canon would be bloody mad to not do it.


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## joestopper (May 1, 2020)

derpderp said:


> $6000-7000 is a good price range i think. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.



No.
The 5DS(R) wasn't twice as much as the 5DIII, so why would the R5S be twice of R5?


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## unfocused (May 1, 2020)

I love these threads. It's like telling a six-year-old that Santa is going to bring him something special. All of a sudden wishes go wild. Then when the actual present arrives, we will get a bunch of people whining about how Canon didn't give them what they wanted. 

Once the R5 and R6 are announced, we will have a much better idea of where the holes in the lineup might be. Looking at the rumored specs for the R5 and R6, it doesn't appear that either one really works as a replacement for the RP or the R. 

If they don't keep the R and RP in the lineup, then it seems logical that the new bodies will be designed to fill the price points that these cameras currently meet. Forum dwellers get caught up in specs, but Canon is more interested in hitting specific price points.


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## canonnews (May 1, 2020)

mpb001 said:


> I am reading a lot about an assortment of various R and M series cameras supposedly coming out in 2020, but except for the R5 and possibly R6, I see little information or proposed release dates. The R6 is supposed to come out in May 2020, however I have not seen any images of this phantom model. I think that Canon should focus on what they can realistically offer the public in 2020 before they start talking about 2021. I realize that the world has changed in only a few months due to the virus. Maybe Canon and others should just shelve the idea of releasing cameras this year altogether. Its not like people really need these cameras and since travel has been curtailed, not a lot of travel photography will probably happen until 2021 anyway. Just my opinion.



weird. where is canon talking about 2021?


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## canonnews (May 1, 2020)

CTJohn said:


> No one mentioning a mirrorless version of the 7D. Why not? I've got to think there's a market for a very high frame rate mirrorless, even with a cropped sensor.



See R5 for high frame rate camera.
Or M6 Mark II
Or M7 or M5 Mark II or whatever it will be called. 
or heck the 1DX Mark III I here does pretty good too.

Canon has high frame rate covered in spades.


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## canonnews (May 1, 2020)

mpmark said:


> So why not? I don't know, maybe cause Canon invests in a new camera system every 4 years to get a return? They will NOT release a new flagship and then cannibalize it. that is BAD business practice.



They aren't.

Some of their professional photographers will prefer the 1DX Mark III. Others will prefer the R1.
The users will choose, Canon will offer the choice.

See how that works?


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## herein2020 (May 1, 2020)

mpb001 said:


> I am reading a lot about an assortment of various R and M series cameras supposedly coming out in 2020, but except for the R5 and possibly R6, I see little information or proposed release dates. The R6 is supposed to come out in May 2020, however I have not seen any images of this phantom model. I think that Canon should focus on what they can realistically offer the public in 2020 before they start talking about 2021. I realize that the world has changed in only a few months due to the virus. Maybe Canon and others should just shelve the idea of releasing cameras this year altogether. Its not like people really need these cameras and since travel has been curtailed, not a lot of travel photography will probably happen until 2021 anyway. Just my opinion.


That's crazy talk, I've been waiting 4yrs for Canon to get their mirrorless video act together, now I'm really glad that a GH6 did not get released and that the S1H uses an L mount or I would have already further committed to the Panasonic system.

There is no way Canon will wait another year to release these bodies nor should they; BTW Canon has not officially announced anything for 2021 the only place you will find any mention of 2021 is on rumors sites. Pandemic or not, unless there is some major limitation in the R6 I'm buying one as soon as it is available and will use whatever is left of this pandemic lockdown to learn the camera inside and out, get accessories for it, and prepare my video workflow around it.


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## Treyarnon (May 1, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I'm sticking to my original predictions list and adding dates and prices
> 
> 
> R1 - 1DX Mirrorless Replacement (2023+)
> ...



See, this is what is worrying me - I am worried you might be right!
Those prices are CRAZY. 
If you are a pro stills shooter, the price of entry into the R system is going to be £5k???

Sorry, Canon - that would be a big no for me. I don't want a Sony, but Sony can sell similarly specified cameras under £3k. That is the market Canon needs to hit (AKA traditional 5D market)


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## Treyarnon (May 1, 2020)

canonnews said:


> this isn't reality though. there's not much in an R5 that is "video only" and you're not really paying for "those video features".
> 
> https://www.canonnews.com/public-outcry-too-much-video-in-the-canon-eos-r5


Lets see how much that R5 costs shall we?


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## SecureGSM (May 1, 2020)

mpmark said:


> So why not? I don't know, maybe cause Canon invests in a new camera system every 4 years to get a return? They will NOT release a new flagship and then cannibalize it. that is BAD business practice.
> If that doesn't make sense to you I don't know what does. Please give me an example when Canon has released a new camera and then less then a year later out did it. We are seeing the 5D equivalent for the mirrorless line because the 5D is due for refresh, so is the 6D, the refresh is happening in mirrorless mount. The 1D line just got a refresh, wont happen my friend.


There is a commercial wisdom that it is better to have your own product impending on the existing product line rather than some other company cannibalising your products market share.
can I ask you a simple but rethorical question :
Do you think that Canon RF glass cannibalising on Canon EF line of products.
think of R1 as an extra level above 1D.
it will be well differentiated by AF capabilities, video capabilities, sensor resolution and certainly price.
I can commercially proof that R1sales would no longer affect adoption rate of 1D camera provided the above differentiation was maintained.


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## herein2020 (May 1, 2020)

Treyarnon said:


> See, this is what is worrying me - I am worried you might be right!
> Those prices are CRAZY.
> If you are a pro stills shooter, the price of entry into the R system is going to be £5k???
> 
> Sorry, Canon - that would be a big no for me. I don't want a Sony, but Sony can sell similarly specified cameras under £3k. That is the market Canon needs to hit (AKA traditional 5D market)


I hope I'm wrong, but with those specs it makes sense. Also, I don't think those prices will last long, they will be the early adopter fee; but for all others you'd have to be willing to wait at least 6 months to benefit from a price drop. And actually, the price for entry will be far higher if you want to go with native R mount lenses. Otherwise you are stuck with EF lenses and the adapter.

Another pricing clue, although I'm not sure how accurate it is; I've seen the lensrentals rental price compared to the 1DXIII's rental price several times now, below is a quote from fstoppers:

_Pricing remains a mystery. Major retailers say “Coming Soon.” Interestingly, however, Lens Rentals has it listed at $271 per week (hat tip to docsmith). Given that the 1D X Mark III is $347 per week, a little bit of math puts the R5’s retail price a shade over $5,000. So, $4,999? _

I do not think the Sony comparison however is entirely fair, I've picked up a couple of Sony's in the retail stores just to hold them and to try to see what all the fuss is about....the build quality, ergonomics, menu system, color science, etc. etc. is night and day vs. a Canon. So yes..Ford makes tons of cars that go from point a to point b, but that does not mean that BMW needs to compete with them on price.


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## yestostills (May 1, 2020)

Yes, finally. R5s/R3. What a concept, still cameras for still photographers. I’m in.


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## yestostills (May 1, 2020)

JustAnotherCanonShooter said:


> R3/R5s is what I would like to see. R5 is awesome, no question, but as a still photographer, I just don't need all that 8K video functions, and you bet the R5 will price that in. So instead of paying for something I don't need, I'd much rather throw my money towards a high pixel count, because that's a function that I'd actually use.


As a broadcast videographer I agree. I need a stills camera not another video camera.


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## canonnews (May 1, 2020)

Treyarnon said:


> Lets see how much that R5 costs shall we?



The cost of the R5 has nothing to do with the fact that little in the R5 is expensive due to video.


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## canonnews (May 1, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> _Pricing remains a mystery. Major retailers say “Coming Soon.” Interestingly, however, Lens Rentals has it listed at $271 per week (hat tip to docsmith). Given that the 1D X Mark III is $347 per week, a little bit of math puts the R5’s retail price a shade over $5,000. So, $4,999? _



Roger responded to this in a dpreview thread, he stated it was essentially a placeholder.


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## yestostills (May 1, 2020)

canonnews said:


> The cost of the R5 has nothing to do with the fact that little in the R5 is expensive due to video.


I’ve always been curious to know if Canon has a break down of the cost of the engineering manpower hours and technical design and hardware development for the video component in a still camera.


----------



## deleteme (May 1, 2020)

Ahhh, something to dream about other than disease.


----------



## canonnews (May 1, 2020)

yestostills said:


> I’ve always been curious to know if Canon has a break down of the cost of the engineering manpower hours and technical design and hardware development for the video component in a still camera.


there's little hardware in the R5 that is solely dedicated to stills. as we took great pains to break down in our article about it.


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## rwvaughn (May 1, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> I often read rumors about future EOS R bodies. Does anyone have any rumors about an upcoming EOS 5D Mark V body?


While Canon has said (though some time ago) that there would be a successor to the 5DIV. If the R5 sells successfully in large numbers I would believe that would make a 5DV even less likely to appear. If people move to mirrorless in large numbers it's less incentive for DSLR's to continue to be made. I'm not a fortune teller though. Just my thoughts.


----------



## SteveC (May 1, 2020)

Treyarnon said:


> Lets see how much that R5 costs shall we?



Utterly illogical.

Whatever the price turns out to be, you can't use the number as proof that it's due to a bunch of video features you don't want. Because in many cases the video feature uses physical capabilities that are also used by the stills capabilities you want. Removing the video capability would entail removing part of the stills capability. The video is riding piggyback.

Or maybe it's the stills capability that is riding piggyback on the video capability.

Either way, imagining the camera would be significantly cheaper by separating them out is sheer fantasy.

Yeah, so to get the stills stuff you want you will HAVE to put up with those video capabilities. Not because Canon is a bunch of meanies, but because those stills features are interdependent with the video ones.


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## SteveC (May 1, 2020)

rwvaughn said:


> While Canon has said (though some time ago) that there would be a successor to the 5DIV.



And maybe the R5 is it.


----------



## SteveC (May 1, 2020)

I gotta say I find this a refreshing break.

We've gone from "cripple hammer" "gonna buy a Sony" to "this camera does too much."


----------



## AlanWill (May 1, 2020)

An EOS-R7 please!!! I have been hoping for another top-end crop sensor RF mount to replace my aging 7DII. 24Mp would be fine with fast autofocus tracking, low-noise, and high frame-rate.


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## deanmejos (May 1, 2020)

I'm thinking about the low-cost R body...not that I wanna buy it, but I'm just thinking about it. How about making a M6-like FF body? 

External/Optional EVF
LP-E17 battery
single SD card slot
26MP again
a bit faster shooting speed
priced like the current RP or less

that should get people in the Canon/FF system especially if Canon also releases pancake lenses to go with it


----------



## bigbadhenry (May 1, 2020)

AlanWill said:


> An EOS-R7 please!!! I have been hoping for another top-end crop sensor RF mount to replace my aging 7DII. 24Mp would be fine with fast autofocus tracking, low-noise, and high frame-rate.


I'm looking for a replacement for my 7DII and it needs to be below £2000 or I'll not buy.


----------



## CvH (May 1, 2020)

Doug7131 said:


> Thanks for letting us know. Unfortunately, the last checked my hands were the same size as they were when I bought my 7D which I find extremely comfortable to hold for long periods of time. The ergonomics of a camera, is for me, the most important aspect of a camera. It’s the reason I will never buy a Sony body until they create a camera that doesn’t have the ergonomics of a brick.



I have small hands. I like the small size and weight of my R, but the buttons and dials are better layout on the 5D3, and is much more comfortable to hold for long period of time. The new R5 looks similar in size to the R but hopefully Canon improves on the economic!


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## Quarkcharmed (May 1, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> R5 - 5D Replacement (2020) ($4999)
> R5S - 5DS Replacement (2021) ($5200)


For 5k USD, thanks, but it'd be cheaper to switch to Sony A7RIV including trading Canon lenses in for Sony equivalents.

I don't expect R5/R5s to be much more expensive than its direct competitor.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (May 1, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Utterly illogical.
> 
> Whatever the price turns out to be, you can't use the number as proof that it's due to a bunch of video features you don't want. Because in many cases the video feature uses physical capabilities that are also used by the stills capabilities you want. Removing the video capability would entail removing part of the stills capability. The video is riding piggyback.
> 
> ...


Exactly.. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.


----------



## derpderp (May 1, 2020)

joestopper said:


> No.
> The 5DS(R) wasn't twice as much as the 5DIII, so why would the R5S be twice of R5?



because i was referring to the R1?


----------



## derpderp (May 1, 2020)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Exactly.. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.


Some ppl still think the video and still specs of HYBRID cameras nowadays can be separated at will. TBH, if they want still capabilities only, they can go to pentax. oh wait...


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## mb66energy (May 1, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> This is great news.
> An R6 with 36 MP sensor range would be perfect.
> Does not need the hyper speed or 8K but all the AF features included (In fact every R should have that as standard).
> Cost: $1,400.00
> ...



The R6 feature set proposed by you makes a lot of sense and if the pricing is in the region of 1400 $ it might be a good start in a two body two lenses setup - two R5 are maybe too expensive for me. I have the money but it is overkill for what I do.


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## Joules (May 1, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I gotta say I find this a refreshing break.
> 
> We've gone from "cripple hammer" "gonna buy a Sony" to "this camera does too much."


Seriously!

But the arguments are more ludicrous now than ever. At least wanting more FPS or more DR could be justified by personal wants.

But wanting to remove video from a mirrorless is like wanting to remove the EVF... And the high speed tracking and stills shooting. And of course nobody wants to give those up. It's wanting to eat the cake and have it too.


----------



## brad-man (May 1, 2020)

All this talk just backs up my position. Some folks are just plain crazy...


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## Ozarker (May 1, 2020)

Treyarnon said:


> Those prices are CRAZY.
> If you are a pro stills shooter, the price of entry into the R system is going to be £5k???


Um, no. Maybe for you? A mistake is commonly made that what we personally think we need is what everyone else needs or wants. A professional is not defined by what he carries anymore than the gear defines the carrier. From where do you get the foggiest notion that entry level for pro stills shooters is $5k (or pounds) for a body? There are professionals doing fantastic work with far less. It isn't about the gear.


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## Ozarker (May 1, 2020)

brad-man said:


> All this talk just backs up my position. Some folks are just plain crazy...


Yup. Cabin fever, I guess.


----------



## scyrene (May 1, 2020)

Ruiloba said:


> High detail even in high iso where most of the wildlifer's strugle (like from 1600 and above) wich comes with less megapixels sensor as the 1dx does.



The rest of what you say is fair enough, but this is not really true - higher res means higher noise (at a given ISO) per pixel, but not per image, and normalising (i.e. outputting to the same size as a lower res sensor), you can expect more detail, as the smaller pixels are able to resolve more (and you can apply finer noise reduction).


----------



## BillB (May 1, 2020)

Joules said:


> Seriously!
> 
> But the arguments are more ludicrous now than ever. At least wanting more FPS or more DR could be justified by personal wants.
> 
> But wanting to remove video from a mirrorless is like wanting to remove the EVF... And the high speed tracking and stills shooting. And of course nobody wants to give those up. It's wanting to eat the cake and have it too.


Some people are in sticker shock before anybody knows what the sticker price is.


----------



## peters (May 1, 2020)

Del Paso said:


> Presently, only 2 R bodies are really missing, namely the R 1 for sports photographers, and the EOS 5 Ds replacement, the EOS Rs.
> An additional low-cost R already exists, so, no need for another one.


I absolutely agree and hope for a high resolution R and a robust R1
I also would be interested in an even more video centered R model. Maybe with a lower MPixel count and better low light performance. Though the R5 is pretty much all I ever wanted.


I think that more cheaper R models are also very realisticaly. Canon got a LOT of cheaper DSLRs with quite some (maybe unecessary) segmentation. The 2000D, 4000D, 250D, 800D, 77D are all very similar and all in the lower price sector. They share a very tight market. So I think the R series will see also quite some more entry-level cameras.


----------



## derpderp (May 1, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> R5s (high megapixel R) and something to replace the RP is my vote. The R6 is clearly more video focused with the 20MP sensor, but it leaves a resolution gap in the product line as well as a place for an entry level FF (1 card slot, 26MP resolution, 4K30FPS video, $1499 price tag)
> 
> IMO an R1 release would be too soon after the 1DXIII release...it would cannibalize their 1DXIII sales and would be a second niche body that would only appeal to a select few; even fewer when you take into account that you would have to get the sports shooters to switch to an EVF and do they even have a sports R mount lens (100mm-400mm) in their lineup yet? Nothing makes sense about releasing an R1 so soon.
> 
> ...



$4999 for R5? lmao. $3999 is much more realistic.


----------



## joestopper (May 1, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I love these threads. It's like telling a six-year-old that Santa is going to bring him something special. All of a sudden wishes go wild. Then when the actual present arrives, we will get a bunch of people whining about how Canon didn't give them what they wanted.
> 
> Once the R5 and R6 are announced, we will have a much better idea of where the holes in the lineup might be. Looking at the rumored specs for the R5 and R6, it doesn't appear that either one really works as a replacement for the RP or the R.
> 
> If they don't keep the R and RP in the lineup, then it seems logical that the new bodies will be designed to fill the price points that these cameras currently meet. Forum dwellers get caught up in specs, but Canon is more interested in hitting specific price points.



I am wondering whether there will be any future FF R body without IBIS? My guess would be no. While IBIS would be optional on M bodies. What are the guesses?


----------



## AEWest (May 1, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I hope I'm wrong, but with those specs it makes sense. Also, I don't think those prices will last long, they will be the early adopter fee; but for all others you'd have to be willing to wait at least 6 months to benefit from a price drop. And actually, the price for entry will be far higher if you want to go with native R mount lenses. Otherwise you are stuck with EF lenses and the adapter.
> 
> Another pricing clue, although I'm not sure how accurate it is; I've seen the lensrentals rental price compared to the 1DXIII's rental price several times now, below is a quote from fstoppers:
> 
> ...


I don't think you can use the rental rate to estimate the price in this instance. The reason is scarcity: very few R5s will be available at launch but Lens Rentals has likely been promised some of those. So they will take advantage of the huge demand and get away with a high rental rate. Once supply catches up, I would expect the rental rate to fall.


----------



## AEWest (May 1, 2020)

joestopper said:


> I am wondering whether there will be any future FF R body without IBIS? My guess would be no. While IBIS would be optional on M bodies. What are the guesses?


I believe the base model RP or successor won't ever have IBIS to help keep price down.


----------



## koenkooi (May 1, 2020)

AEWest said:


> I don't think you can use the rental rate to estimate the price in this instance. The reason is scarcity: very few R5s will be available at launch but Lens Rentals has likely been promised some of those. So they will take advantage of the huge demand and get away with a high rental rate. Once supply catches up, I would expect the rental rate to fall.



Roger from Lensrentals has said on DPreview that that rate is just a placeholder.


----------



## mpmark (May 1, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> There is a commercial wisdom that it is better to have your own product impending on the existing product line rather than some other company cannibalising your products market share.
> can I ask you a simple but rethorical question :
> Do you think that Canon RF glass cannibalising on Canon EF line of products.
> think of R1 as an extra level above 1D.
> ...



I tend to agree with your argument, alhough in Canon's case going if we go by history I dont see that happening. I hope I am wrong, I wouldnt be buying their flagship 1d mirrorless anyway but it would honestly surprise me if they released a 1dx level camera in the mirrorless line so soon after the 1dxiii. My guess is they release it 2 years from now but I could be wrong. The Sony A9 line may change that. But Canon did mention that they believe the OVF is still king when it comes to sports photography as EVF has the lag. That's their words not mine. Like I mentioned, I dont see it any time soon.


----------



## cayenne (May 1, 2020)

CTJohn said:


> No one mentioning a mirrorless version of the 7D. Why not? I've got to think there's a market for a very high frame rate mirrorless, even with a cropped sensor.



I think general consensus seems to be leaning towards the "M" series of cameras, being the APS-C camera line going forward....?

At least that's my take on it from the past month of reading here....

C


----------



## usern4cr (May 1, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I tend to agree with your argument, alhough in Canon's case going if we go by history I dont see that happening. I hope I am wrong, I wouldnt be buying their flagship 1d mirrorless anyway but it would honestly surprise me if they released a 1dx level camera in the mirrorless line so soon after the 1dxiii. My guess is they release it 2 years from now but I could be wrong. The Sony A9 line may change that. But Canon did mention that they believe the OVF is still king when it comes to sports photography as EVF has the lag. That's their words not mine. Like I mentioned, I dont see it any time soon.


Now that the Olympics have been delayed until Summer 2021, I expect Canon will introduce their R1 flagship body sufficiently before those Olympics so that they can claim FF mirrorless and DSLR bragging rights throughout the Olympics. If they don't do this, they will miss a golden opportunity to do so.


----------



## herein2020 (May 1, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Now that the Olympics have been delayed until Summer 2021, I expect Canon will introduce their R1 flagship body sufficiently before those Olympics so that they can claim FF mirrorless and DSLR bragging rights throughout the Olympics. If they don't do this, they will miss a golden opportunity to do so.


Companies do not release products just for "bragging rights". There are a long list of reasons why it would not make sense the main ones being there are no long R mount lenses, EVF lag, just released the 1DX III, there is no real competitor to the 1DX at the Olympics anyway, a 1 year delay is nowhere near enough time to bring a new camera of that caliber to market, and the list goes on.


----------



## peters (May 1, 2020)

usern4cr said:


> Now that the Olympics have been delayed until Summer 2021, I expect Canon will introduce their R1 flagship body sufficiently before those Olympics so that they can claim FF mirrorless and DSLR bragging rights throughout the Olympics. If they don't do this, they will miss a golden opportunity to do so.


I would hope so, though I am not realy sure this is going to happen. The main reason are the missing telephoto lenses. EF lenses can be adapted to RF realy well, but I am not sure If the olympic Photographers would like to do this or if they prefer a native mount liek on the 1DX III. The electronic viewfinder could be realy nice for sports photogaphers though. Time wilt ell


----------



## unfocused (May 1, 2020)

joestopper said:


> I am wondering whether there will be any future FF R body without IBIS? My guess would be no. While IBIS would be optional on M bodies. What are the guesses?


I agree. In fact, if they took the R, gave it IBIS, added the single point spot autofocus point and a second card slot (which I really don't think is all that important but some people do) they could call it good and sell it for not much more than the original R.


----------



## Ozarker (May 1, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Companies do not release products just for "bragging rights".


Thank you. I never understood the "bragging rights" perspectives. Canon produces to outshine and compete. Canon isn't a child on the playground. My mama always told me that bragging is bad form. There's always somebody that comes along with something newer and shinier.  Products speak for themselves. Canon doesn't spend millions of dollars producing a new product just to brag.


----------



## Ozarker (May 1, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I agree. In fact, if they took the R, gave it IBIS, added the single point spot autofocus point and a second card slot (which I really don't think is all that important but some people do) they could call it good and sell it for not much more than the original R.


Yes. I would upgrade just for IBIS because I have 40 something lenses without IS. It works great on the wife's Olympus, but the crop factor makes it a no-go for me.


----------



## usern4cr (May 1, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Companies do not release products just for "bragging rights". There are a long list of reasons why it would not make sense the main ones being there are no long R mount lenses, EVF lag, just released the 1DX III, there is no real competitor to the 1DX at the Olympics anyway, a 1 year delay is nowhere near enough time to bring a new camera of that caliber to market, and the list goes on.


Did I say it was "just" for bragging rights? No, I didn't. You want hype so that you can sell product - bodies & lenses. You can no more claim for sure that they won't introduce the R1 for the Olympics than I can for sure claim that they will. And ditto for the lenses they introduce at that time.

We will both see if they do a year from now.


----------



## privatebydesign (May 1, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Thank you. I never understood the "bragging rights" perspectives. Canon produces to outshine and compete. Canon isn't a child on the playground. My mama always told me that bragging is bad form. There's always somebody that comes along with something newer and shinier.  Products speak for themselves. Canon doesn't spend millions of dollars producing a new product just to brag.


What other rational is there for the EF 50L f1.0? Or the NIKKOR Z 58mm f/0.95 S Noct? Companies often compromise aspects of an overall design specifically so they can hit new highs in benchmark metrics, that's why we get disclaimers like '* according to in house testing as of xxxx'.


----------



## SteveC (May 1, 2020)

peters said:


> I absolutely agree and hope for a high resolution R and a robust R1
> I also would be interested in an even more video centered R model. Maybe with a lower MPixel count and better low light performance. Though the R5 is pretty much all I ever wanted.



Please tell me you are NOT going to demand that Canon sell a video-only camera without all those damn stills features you don't want to pay for.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 1, 2020)

melgross said:


> I thought we already knew that the R6 would have a 20mp sensor. If so, how could it replace the R with a 30mp sensor. Where does this 36mp sensor for the R6 come from, other than your desire for it?



And you are the expert on the future?


----------



## Architect1776 (May 1, 2020)

mpmark said:


> The R6 is reported to be 24MP, plastic body, 12/20fps, not as high MP as you mention.



Yes it is. The gap between that and the R5 does not make any sense.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 1, 2020)

mb66energy said:


> The R6 feature set proposed by you makes a lot of sense and if the pricing is in the region of 1400 $ it might be a good start in a two body two lenses setup - two R5 are maybe too expensive for me. I have the money but it is overkill for what I do.



I am just looking at the huge MP gap of 20 to a possible 45mp. It does not make sense in today's competitive business. Looks like R5 is great then the cripple hammer came out for the R6. Just does not make sense.
Canon needs to absolutely dominate in features and price at all levels.


----------



## peters (May 1, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Please tell me you are NOT going to demand that Canon sell a video-only camera without all those damn stills features you don't want to pay for.


:-D :-D :-D no, of course not ^^ 
though I think there could be a camera like the Sony a7s, which got a lower megapixel count but impressive lowlight features =)


----------



## privatebydesign (May 1, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Yes it is. The gap between that and the R5 does not make any sense.





Architect1776 said:


> I am just looking at the huge MP gap of 20 to a possible 45mp. It does not make sense in today's competitive business. Looks like R5 is great then the cripple hammer came out for the R6. Just does not make sense.
> Canon needs to absolutely dominate in features and price at all levels.



Nikon Z6 24mp
Nikon Z7 45mp

Sony A7 III 24mp
Sony A7R IV 61mp

What competition are you looking at where it doesn't make sense?


----------



## Ozarker (May 1, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> What other rational is there for the EF 50L f1.0? Or the NIKKOR Z 58mm f/0.95 S Noct? Companies often compromise aspects of an overall design specifically so they can hit new highs in benchmark metrics, that's why we get disclaimers like '* according to in house testing as of xxxx'.


I don't think they are for bragging by the companies as much as it is consumers who want to brag they have the fastest or bestest this or that. I think a lot of people buy things for status just because they can. I recall a young man once showing me his new sunglasses way back in the early 1980s. Just another pair of sunglasses to me. Then he said, "You know what those cost me? $375 bucks!" So who's the braggart? The sunglass company or the sucker?  He didn't appreciate my laughter. There's a fine line between bragging and showcasing. Bragging: 1*.excessively proud and boastful* talk about one's achievements or possessions


----------



## richperson (May 1, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Companies do not release products just for "bragging rights". There are a long list of reasons why it would not make sense the main ones being there are no long R mount lenses, EVF lag, just released the 1DX III, there is no real competitor to the 1DX at the Olympics anyway, a 1 year delay is nowhere near enough time to bring a new camera of that caliber to market, and the list goes on.



I'm not sure. Seems like most of the work has already been done with the 1DXiii. IF (big IF) the EVF on the R5 is quick and not laggy, then all you do is take the R5 body, redesign the bottom to build in the battery grip, add the AF point mover from the 1DXiii and then use the mechanical shutter and sensor from the 1DXiii. It seems like the only thing you would have to do that is new is the body, and that shouldn't be that challenging. All the guts exist in the 1DXiii and R5.

Not to mention that Canon seems to come out with new 1DX variants before the Olympics (as does Nikon) so bragging rights (marketing) are certainly a consideration.

And, as a sports shooter with a 1DXiii, I would really like to have a sports camera for my 28-70mm f/2 and my 85mm f/1.2 as my short camera depending on the sport. If the rumored 70-135mm f/2 becomes reality even more so.


----------



## BillB (May 1, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> And you are the expert on the future?


Around here, CR3 is a working approximation of what will be.


----------



## cayenne (May 1, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I don't think they are for bragging by the companies as much as it is consumers who want to brag they have the fastest or bestest this or that. I think a lot of people buy things for status just because they can. I recall a young man once showing me his new sunglasses way back in the early 1980s. Just another pair of sunglasses to me. Then he said, "You know what those cost me? $375 bucks!" So who's the braggart? The sunglass company or the sucker?  He didn't appreciate my laughter. There's a fine line between bragging and showcasing. Bragging: 1*.excessively proud and boastful* talk about one's achievements or possessions



There's a LOT of companies across many industries that have "halo" products....the ultra high end stuff, that most people can't afford, BUT...they are there to draw attention to the company's other products and it does help sell stuff.

Ford has had the GT40...and I think they're about to come out with it again.
Heck, Chevy has the Corvette ZR1
Dodge used to have the Viper....

Those are car examples (hey, who doesn't like a good car example?)......but you see the same thing in many other company's products.

YES, there are some people that buy them....some can afford as that what is a fortune to some, is pocket change to others.
Some save and save and get their dream item...
Others just *drool*.....or some just aren't interested in that stuff.

But call it bragging rights, or call it a halo products....most all company's have a top of the line "something"....and it helps the prestige of their whole line.

C


----------



## TinTin (May 1, 2020)

Regarding the comments concerning a sports-oriented mirrorless body for the Olympics rescheduled to 2021, it has to be borne in mind that there's still an element of doubt about whether these games will take place at all.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...reliant-on-covid-19-vaccine-senior-ioc-member
And, even more pessimistic:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...unlikely-to-happen-in-2021-virus-experts-warn

As a Japanese company, Canon will be very aware of this situation and of the fact that the Japanese had originally wanted to carry on regardless in 2020, then had to postpone, and that, more recently, having thought they'd got the virus under control, Japan has suffered something of a second wave.

If the sports-oriented body is already in development and planned for 2021 release, then the possibility of an Olympics in 2021 is well and good. If, however, the sports-oriented body is no more than an idea, I can't see that Canon would want to do a rushed job to produce a camera for an Olympics which might not happen.


----------



## Ozarker (May 1, 2020)

cayenne said:


> There's a LOT of companies across many industries that have "halo" products....the ultra high end stuff, that most people can't afford, BUT...they are there to draw attention to the company's other products and it does help sell stuff.
> 
> Ford has had the GT40...and I think they're about to come out with it again.
> Heck, Chevy has the Corvette ZR1
> ...


I agree. I just don't call it bragging by a company.


----------



## BeenThere (May 1, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I agree. I just don't call it bragging by a company.


“Showcasing “ is much nicer.


----------



## unfocused (May 1, 2020)

TinTin said:


> Regarding the comments concerning a sports-oriented mirrorless body for the Olympics rescheduled to 2021, it has to be borne in mind that there's still an element of doubt about whether these games will take place at all.
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...reliant-on-covid-19-vaccine-senior-ioc-member
> And, even more pessimistic:
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...unlikely-to-happen-in-2021-virus-experts-warn
> ...


Good points.

I really don't think people who talk about an R1 for the Olympics in 2021 or whenever really have a clue what they are saying. With a 1Dx or similar body, you can hand it to photographers a few weeks or months before the Olympics and professional sports photographers will be able to use it without many concerns. That's because the basics don't change that much and they can pick it up without having to spend a lot of time fiddling with it. Not true of a mirrorless body, which will be significantly different than a DLSR. 

I can't imagine many professionals using a new R style body at an event like the Olympics. It's just too much of a risk. Let's say the Olympics do take place in the summer of 2021. To give photographers a level of comfort they need to shoot the Olympics, the body would have to be available six months to a year out. Sure, Canon could release something around the time of the Olympics and hand out a bunch of them for photographers to try out, but I suspect that only those who are sponsored by Canon would actually use it and then only as a backup or second camera. 

Makes more sense for Canon to release the R1 body during a regular sports season, so photographers can try it out over the course of a season, rather than rolling the dice on a once every four/five years event.


----------



## Ozarker (May 2, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> “Showcasing “ is much nicer.


Well, that's exactly what it is.


----------



## BillB (May 2, 2020)

We really 


unfocused said:


> Makes more sense for Canon to release the R1 body during a regular sports season, so photographers can try it out over the course of a season, rather than rolling the dice on a once every four/five years event.


At this point, we don‘t know much about the AF and EVF of the R5, and we don’t know how close Canon is to having the AF and EVF ready for the F1. So technical Issues may be a factor in the timing of the R1.


----------



## davidhfe (May 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Nikon Z6 24mp
> Nikon Z7 45mp
> 
> Sony A7 III 24mp
> ...



This exactly. A 30 mp sensor wouldn't be a meaningful enough differentiation between cheaper or more expensive offerings, especially when the R6 is rumored to have 12/20 shooting and pretty solid video capabilities.


----------



## richperson (May 2, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Good points.
> 
> I really don't think people who talk about an R1 for the Olympics in 2021 or whenever really have a clue what they are saying. With a 1Dx or similar body, you can hand it to photographers a few weeks or months before the Olympics and professional sports photographers will be able to use it without many concerns. That's because the basics don't change that much and they can pick it up without having to spend a lot of time fiddling with it. Not true of a mirrorless body, which will be significantly different than a DLSR.
> 
> ...



I agree with your logic for the bulk of the photos/photographers, but Canon has used its sponsored photographers to carry new gear on a second body at events like the super bowl etc. just so they can talk about it. I agree you won't see a majority in the photo pit, but it does provide a good chance to show it can do the job if you give it as a second to your explorers of light.


----------



## canonnews (May 2, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> Companies do not release products just for "bragging rights". There are a long list of reasons why it would not make sense the main ones being there are no long R mount lenses, EVF lag, just released the 1DX III, there is no real competitor to the 1DX at the Olympics anyway, a 1 year delay is nowhere near enough time to bring a new camera of that caliber to market, and the list goes on.



hah. when it comes to the Olympics they sure do.

And Canon was rumored to be already bringing the R1 out in 2021 so how is that "nowhere near enough time"?


----------



## canonnews (May 2, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Good points.
> 
> I really don't think people who talk about an R1 for the Olympics in 2021 or whenever really have a clue what they are saying. With a 1Dx or similar body, you can hand it to photographers a few weeks or months before the Olympics and professional sports photographers will be able to use it without many concerns. That's because the basics don't change that much and they can pick it up without having to spend a lot of time fiddling with it. Not true of a mirrorless body, which will be significantly different than a DLSR.
> 
> I can't imagine many professionals using a new R style body at an event like the Olympics.



The people that were talking about an R1 in 2021 was I think the Nikkan had the article last September. So this isn't a "new idea".

The article states that prototypes were already tested .. and this is in September of 2019.

while the AF may be different - I would imagine that an R1 would have the same ergonomics as the 1DX Mark III - it would insanity to have otherwise. Canon has had the same 1 series ergonomics for basically all of 20+ years now. They aren't going to change from that because it's mirrorless.

and just to make mention - Canon was expecting to let loose with a TON of R5's during the games to professionals, so obviously they felt that even with the dramatic change in ergonomics from the 1 series and 5 series that they'd still have a lot of people using the cameras.

Also in the 1DX Mark III - AF cases, and AF operation for mirrorless is nearly the same as through the phase detect AF. So canon is already working on making a seamless professional transition to mirrorless with the 1DX Mark III.

and this is important. People that are used of the 1DX Mark III would most likely find the transition to an R1 to be pretty seamless because I would imagine the case situated AF that already exists in the 1dX Mark III would simply be there on the R1 with improvements for performance, accuracy,etc.


----------



## sanj (May 2, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Good points.
> 
> I really don't think people who talk about an R1 for the Olympics in 2021 or whenever really have a clue what they are saying. With a 1Dx or similar body, you can hand it to photographers a few weeks or months before the Olympics and professional sports photographers will be able to use it without many concerns. That's because the basics don't change that much and they can pick it up without having to spend a lot of time fiddling with it. Not true of a mirrorless body, which will be significantly different than a DLSR.
> 
> ...


Not really. I can (and am sure many others can) pick up any Canon camera (if they have learned 1dx2 or 3 very well) and figure any other camera within a few hours.


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## sanj (May 2, 2020)

canonnews said:


> The people that were talking about an R1 in 2021 was I think the Nikkan had the article last September. So this isn't a "new idea".
> 
> The article states that prototypes were already tested .. and this is in September of 2019.
> 
> ...


I don't think so. We will both know one day!


----------



## slclick (May 2, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Canon made their decision the moment R5 / R6 naming conversion was announced.
> 5s / 5sR branding is a well recognised name. Why would Canon drop what works and invest in a new R3 convention?
> There is no point..


They did a bang up job with the EOS 3. It fit well in the naming convention back then. Sliding one in now is still a better nomenclature move than all the crazy they did with the M line.


----------



## slclick (May 2, 2020)

What is this 'interesting' notion that software, software design and testing, new hardware compatibility with said software, paying the software engineers paychecks etc etc etc.... doesn't cost anything? I read the canonnews article and thought there are some holes here. I'm sure Canon bean counters would love it to be 'free'.


----------



## canonnews (May 2, 2020)

slclick said:


> What is this 'interesting' notion that software, software design and testing, new hardware compatibility with said software, paying the software engineers paychecks etc etc etc.... doesn't cost anything? I read the canonnews article and thought there are some holes here. I'm sure Canon bean counters would love it to be 'free'.


depends.
Do you live in a world where they start from scratch with every new camera for firmware? As I mentioned, having a photo only camera doesn't mean that canon doesn't sell any hybrid cameras.

Also we do mention firmware specific features but what firmware specific features are limited to recording of video only?

while there are more test points, most of the software is legacy - built upon existing software code. While there will be new stuff for the R5; h.265 and h.264 firmware to hardware testing would have been already done. any normal object-orientated programming, it should be very little to implement. for a photo only camera, wouldn't result in any real savings outside of test staff, and most of that was already done prior as most of those functions would have been black box tested.

also how many of those video features would have to test as "new firmware" versus how much new code for new AF routines, etc that require significant regression and environmental testing? how much are the specific limited amount of new video only features in relation to the testing and development of the entire camera?


----------



## Starting out EOS R (May 2, 2020)

I love the comments and discussions that result when Canon Rumours Guy Releases a new rumour. It's great to hear the different things members have experienced and quite often I learn something new. However........

I bet Canon Rumours Guy falls around laughing when he releases a rumour like this one and watches everyone go off on wild speculation, complaining that Canon are not listening and releasing the camera specs they want when they want it, analysing every element of the release, commenting, sometimes negatively about individuals comments etc.

Who cares what the next camera body will be called, I certainly dont as long as it does what I want it to. Yes it may have elements of specification I don't need but ultimately Video and stills use the same sensor, EVF and screen, so logically if like the R5 the sensor is able to deliver massive video specs, doesn't that mean it will be transferred to stills performance as well at a reasonable level?

If your waiting for the perfect spec, you will be waiting for a very long time as I bet there are very few people who find every element of a camera specs meet everything they want. There is always a compromise of some sort or another.

Anyhoo, rant over, carry on everyone and continue entertaining. Gotta Love it lol


----------



## Duckstalker (May 2, 2020)

I wish that they would make a super small body that similar to the sigma fp and another pancake lens like the EF 40mm f/2.8.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 2, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Nikon Z6 24mp
> Nikon Z7 45mp
> 
> Sony A7 III 24mp
> ...



Those are competition. Both higher than 20 mp.
Also Note I said DOMINATE not match their lame offerings.
Matching is losing.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 2, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Those are competition. Both higher than 20 mp.
> Also Note I said DOMINATE not match their lame offerings.
> Matching is losing.


Sensor resolution is only one metric out of many others to consider. according to your logic, if R5 was released with 40MP sensor , less than 45MP competition has to offer, do you think it would be “losing it”?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (May 2, 2020)

canonnews said:


> any normal object-orientated programming, it should be very little to implement.



Just as a side note, because I mostly agree with you otherwise.
First I doubt Canon uses OOP in their camera firmware. And even if they do, the code reusability has little to do with the paradigm. It's more about proper design and modularity. 
In embedded software engineering there's usually many dependencies on h/w which makes it harder to make it abstract and reuse. Reusability comes from abstraction, and abstraction usually comes at a cost of performance.


----------



## davidhfe (May 2, 2020)

slclick said:


> What is this 'interesting' notion that software, software design and testing, new hardware compatibility with said software, paying the software engineers paychecks etc etc etc.... doesn't cost anything? I read the canonnews article and thought there are some holes here. I'm sure Canon bean counters would love it to be 'free'.



Of course it's not free. But it's also only part of the equation. This is grossly oversimplified (and has been said 100x on these very forums!), but:

Figure out how much additional revenue those features will bring:
- Additional unit sales
- Additional accessory and lens sales
- Etc (any other customer lifetime value stuff)

Now add up all the associated costs of those features
- Additional hardware+firmware engineering
- Added part cost (mic pickup, etc)
- Added support costs
- Etc (codec licenses, etc)

All canon has to ask themselves now is: Do the costs of bringing these features outweigh the additional revenue? Literally every camera mfgr has had to run this cost/benefit, and literally every mfgr has decided the revenue wins, for the vast majority of their products.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 2, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Sensor resolution is only one metric out of many others to consider. according to your logic, if R5 was released with 40MP sensor , less than 45MP competition has to offer, do you think it would be “losing it”?



Whatever is needed for 8K FF, no.
The R5 stomps the a9 into oblivion.


----------



## SUNDOG04 (May 2, 2020)

cayenne said:


> There's a LOT of companies across many industries that have "halo" products....the ultra high end stuff, that most people can't afford, BUT...they are there to draw attention to the company's other products and it does help sell stuff.
> 
> Ford has had the GT40...and I think they're about to come out with it again.
> Heck, Chevy has the Corvette ZR1
> ...


Each person is different. I am perfectly happy with my 174hp Civic. Doesn’t draw attention or get noticed. I like the low profile. For those with the attention getters, if that what makes you happy, fine, enjoy your product.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 2, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Whatever is needed for 8K FF, no.
> The R5 stomps the a9 into oblivion.


a9 being positioned as an action / sports camera competing with Canon 1 series cameras. Not 5 series. its all good though..


----------



## usern4cr (May 2, 2020)

canonnews said:


> The people that were talking about an R1 in 2021 was I think the Nikkan had the article last September. So this isn't a "new idea".
> 
> The article states that prototypes were already tested .. and this is in September of 2019.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this thoughtful, informed and well written reply that shows that not only is there the "possibility" of Canon having R1's in the hands of many of their professional photographers in the 2021 Olympics, but also shows evidence that it might even be "probable".

It is refreshing when replies can be presented in such a way as to show respect to those they may not agree with, instead of simply saying that they "don't have a clue for what they are saying".

Well done.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (May 2, 2020)

it’s funny to see the reaction but it’s true 

this forum has been
1. A bit too apologetic to canons failings over the past few years. Their products were falling behind
2. Dismissive of the technology advances that were coming elsewhere simply because cabin didn’t have products with them
3 it’s natural to love what you know but it’s been weird to see how rigid some folks have been. Eg autofocus. AI based AF is absolutely important and canon was behind with these tracking systems. Yet some forum users would say canon had the best AF but they just use single point AF. 
I am a birder and scuba photographer. I understand that many forum users here want big bodies but there’s a large market for smaller bodies with good ergonomics. The R5 seems to be a step in that direction. I suspect canon sees a market for a body that size and when the forum users here actually use it they will transition. RF lenses will be smaller and balance better with these smaller bodies

just my 2 cents from watching this forum for years. I am very excited to see canons return to the technological forefront With class leading products.

cant wait



scyrene said:


> This is a rather biased account of what has been said on the forum for the past few years. Nobody made fun of IBIS, and most people accepted the tenet 'mirrorless is the future'. Some people questioned if IBIS was necessary given Canon's excellent in-lens IS, and especially reacted negatively to people coming here and saying if Canon did not add IBIS (and other features competing brands had) then they were ******* etc. As for the future being mirrorless, it was declared imminent at least ten years ago, but still hasn't come to pass. Most people were not saying never, but when? Certainly not until now, and probably not for a little while yet.
> 
> As for size, there are good reasons to favour bigger bodies. If you think 'mirrorless = small' and 'small = better' then you've neither considered the fundamentals of mirrorless much, nor do you do more than a subset of types of photography. Hint: big lenses don't balance well on tiny bodies (heat dissipation and battery size are other factors, though less so as time goes on).


----------



## Architect1776 (May 2, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> a9 being positioned as an action / sports camera competing with Canon 1 series cameras. Not 5 series. its all good though..



The 5 shoots action better than the a9. If that is the Sony best action then the lower level Canon smokes the Sony best action camera.


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## unfocused (May 2, 2020)

richperson said:


> I agree with your logic for the bulk of the photos/photographers, but Canon has used its sponsored photographers to carry new gear on a second body at events like the super bowl etc. just so they can talk about it. I agree you won't see a majority in the photo pit, but it does provide a good chance to show it can do the job if you give it as a second to your explorers of light.


Oh, I agree with that. I fully expect that if a 1 series mirrorless is ready by the time the Summer Olympics finally take place Canon will be promoting the hell out of it. What I took issue with is the idea that Canon would be preparing an "R1" for actual day-to-day, event-to-event use by professional photographers tasked with covering the Olympics and that would somehow be driving the development timetable of the still mythical R1. 

It's a rather subtle distinction, but the point is that those who think Canon is rushing to get an R1 body ready for use by professionals at the Olympics aren't thinking about the dynamics of the Olympics, which is a unique venue that carries high risk for photographers who are under pressure to get the shots. One of the reasons Canon released the 1Dx III when they did was so that photographers would have it in hand and be totally comfortable with it well in advance of the Olympics. And that's a line that photographers were already intimately familiar with. 

In addition, people conveniently ignore the unique challenges that the RF mount presents. I've shot sports trying to use the R as a second body. While the adapter works flawlessly with EF glass, switching back and forth is a pain in the ass, as is carrying duplicate lenses for both mounts. This won't prevent Canon from heavily promoting the R1 when it is ready , whether at the Olympics or other venues, but it will seriously hamper the ultimate adoption of the RF mount for everyday use by professionals.


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## AccipiterQ (May 2, 2020)

The 5r IS the high megapixel body. There's no 5dIV replacement in the r line yet


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## Ozarker (May 3, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> The 5r IS the high megapixel body.


nope


AccipiterQ said:


> There's no 5dIV replacement in the r line yet


see 5R


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## SecureGSM (May 3, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> The 5 shoots action better than the a9. If that is the Sony best action then the lower level Canon smokes the Sony best action camera.


Uhm, you are still missing a few points.
1. A9 offers a blackout free continuous shooting
2. A9 offers an excellent subject tracking in Continuous shooting
3.A9 offers a very low latency EVF
4. A9 offers good battery life
5. A9 has been released back in May 2017 and R5 has not been released yet

it remains to be seen if Canon addressed the above points in R5
However, please note that Canon advised that R5 is not being positioned as a sport / action camera. Let’s be realistic here.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (May 3, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Uhm, you are still missing a few points.
> 1. A9 offers a blackout free continuous shooting
> 2. A9 offers an excellent subject tracking in Continuous shooting
> 3.A9 offers a very low latency EVF
> ...


All very good points. We don't know how the R5 will handle action just yet...


----------



## scyrene (May 3, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> it’s funny to see the reaction but it’s true



To paraphrase Lisa Simpson, just because you say something is true, doesn't make it so.



Drcampbellicu said:


> this forum has been
> 1. A bit too apologetic to canons failings over the past few years. Their products were falling behind
> 2. Dismissive of the technology advances that were coming elsewhere simply because cabin didn’t have products with them
> 3 it’s natural to love what you know but it’s been weird to see how rigid some folks have been. Eg autofocus. AI based AF is absolutely important and canon was behind with these tracking systems. Yet some forum users would say canon had the best AF but they just use single point AF.
> I am a birder and scuba photographer. I understand that many forum users here want big bodies but there’s a large market for smaller bodies with good ergonomics. The R5 seems to be a step in that direction. I suspect canon sees a market for a body that size and when the forum users here actually use it they will transition. RF lenses will be smaller and balance better with these smaller bodies



1. A matter of opinion; I disagree. As for 'falling behind' - that is once again a skewed interpretation. In some areas they were, in others they were ahead. But naturally the fans of other brands who came here only concentrated on the former. Not to mention, they were ahead in the one area that really matters to them, sales - there's no need to put all the bells and whistles into a product that is already selling well. That's no apologetics, it's just reality.
2. Perhaps; I think 'dismissive' is unfair, but to repeat - they were also patiently pointing out that Canon doesn't need to do everything every other brand is doing; that's not how business or technology works.
3. The AI AF thing has only blown up in the past year or two, as far as I can see. I don't recall anybody on the forum complaining about the 1Dx's AF compared to other brands'. But then I wonder how many pros are relying on AI AF, I suspect it's more important to enthusiasts. As for size, nobody denies there's a market - ironically seemingly a big one - for small bodies. But endlessly people have come here and told those of us who'd like cameras to retain their current ergonomics (with big lenses especially) that we're wrong, and that mirrorless means bodies must get smaller, and that smaller is intrinsically better. Incidentally, there's no size advantage for RF with telephoto lenses. They've managed to reduce the weight of the latest big whites, and when they release RF superteles I'm sure the same will be true, but this has nothing to do with the mount. Clearly if the biggest lenses get smaller (or at least lighter), smaller bodies will balance better. But asking for at least one bigger body isn't denying those who want smaller ones.

I think you're missing the broader point which is, most of what you perceieve as defensive or regressive has merely been a reaction to trolling - and a lot of it is genuinely that - for years about Canon's 'weaknesses', especially compared to Sony. When ten sockpuppet accounts pop up every year and spout the same claptrap, it's bound to lead to polarisation, but even then, mostly the reaction was patiently explaining how and why things are a bit more complex than e.g. 'IBIS is better, Canon NEEDS it NOW' etc etc.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (May 3, 2020)

It seemed like there were more canon trolls on the forum than anything. The canon enthusiasts I know were not defensive about canon at all. They were unhappy with products that were lacking innovation for years. It started slowly but the last 2 years they got really upset about this. They wanted canon to do better so that they could have but a better product. Most of them have several L lenses like me which creates a barrier to switching. I think canon knows that our lens investment creates a barrier to users switching. That can lead to less customer centric behavior because the competition has to be so much better to entice folks to switch platforms.

this forum just didn’t reflect the mood I sensed anywhere in the real world. My safari group was concerned that canon was falling behind. My scuba groups were already dismissive of canon and their segmentation strategy. I can go on. But on this forum their was this hostility to the fact that canon had a brewing problem. I mostly saw canon trolls who seemed to say that everything canon made was fantastic. The 6d mark 2 was a disappointment and the R on its release was a unpolished recycled part product. The canon trolls will just say it’s all terrific and folks rush out and buy these substandard products at ridiculous prices. Canon built an amazing reputation for innovation a decade ago and that reputation helps fuels sales. But 1-2 years ago was a real low point. I am happy that I didn’t switch as I see canons upcoming products. Their new products show that we’re paying attention to where the market is going. I suspect that they fell behind on some technology and used their amazing brand strength to mitigate defections while they worked on new products.

but this forum over the past 2 years just seemed defensive. Canon is number one and anything that canon doesn’t offer is just stupid or niche. That’s why they don’t offer it!
That was the canon troll attitude here



scyrene said:


> To paraphrase Lisa Simpson, just because you say something is true, doesn't make it so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





scyrene said:


> To paraphrase Lisa Simpson, just because you say something is true, doesn't make it so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SecureGSM (May 3, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> It seemed like there were more canon trolls on the forum than anything. The canon enthusiasts I know were not defensive about canon at all. They were unhappy with products that were lacking innovation for years. It started slowly but the last 2 years they got really upset about this. They wanted canon to do better so that they could have but a better product. Most of them have several L lenses like me which creates a barrier to switching. I think canon knows that our lens investment creates a barrier to users switching. That can lead to less customer centric behavior because the competition has to be so much better to entice folks to switch platforms.
> 
> this forum just didn’t reflect the mood I sensed anywhere in the real world. My safari group was concerned that canon was falling behind. My scuba groups were already dismissive of canon and their segmentation strategy. I can go on. But on this forum their was this hostility to the fact that canon had a brewing problem. I mostly saw canon trolls who seemed to say that everything canon made was fantastic. The 6d mark 2 was a disappointment and the R on its release was a unpolished recycled part product. The canon trolls will just say it’s all terrific and folks rush out and buy these substandard products at ridiculous prices. Canon built an amazing reputation for innovation a decade ago and that reputation helps fuels sales. But 1-2 years ago was a real low point. I am happy that I didn’t switch as I see canons upcoming products. Their new products show that we’re paying attention to where the market is going. I suspect that they fell behind on some technology and used their amazing brand strength to mitigate defections while they worked on new products.
> 
> ...


++++ It seemed like there were more canon trolls on the forum than anything.

A.M.: this is a Canon centric internet resource. Majority of forum regulars are Canon enthusiasts and supporters. Not trolls. Trolls aren’t helpful. Majority of forum members are Tremendously helpful. Are you?


----------



## BillB (May 3, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> but this forum over the past 2 years just seemed defensive. Canon is number one and anything that canon doesn’t offer is just stupid or niche. That’s why they don’t offer it!
> That was the canon troll attitude here


So you have your notions and others have theirs. You were disappointed in recent Canon offerings, others not so much. As I remember it, most of what you call trolling consisted of persons disagreeing with what somebody else previously posted. To me that is not trolling.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (May 3, 2020)

Didn’t categorize the users as trolls. And I understand that you don’t see my view as helpful
Why?




SecureGSM said:


> ++++ It seemed like there were more canon trolls on the forum than anything.
> 
> A.M.: this is a Canon centric internet resource. Majority of forum regulars are Canon enthusiasts and supporters. Not trolls. Trolls aren’t helpful. Majority of forum members are Tremendously helpful. Are you?


----------



## Drcampbellicu (May 3, 2020)

Fair
But over the last 2 years I would notice that when anyone posted a grievance or concern about canon that 20 or so folks would just start attacking them. Many of the canon grievances or concerns where pretty mainstream concerns IMO. 

So it made me wonder. Is this forum a canon is the greatest echo chamber?
It’s easier to talk about it now because I think most would agree that canon is in a much better position 2020 with exciting products. 2 years ago I don’t think that excitement was there...there was some concern or head scratching 




BillB said:


> So you have your notions and others have theirs. You were disappointed in recent Canon offerings, others not so much. As I remember it, most of what you call trolling consisted of persons disagreeing with what somebody else previously posted. To me that is not trolling.


----------



## joestopper (May 3, 2020)

TinTin said:


> Regarding the comments concerning a sports-oriented mirrorless body for the Olympics rescheduled to 2021, it has to be borne in mind that there's still an element of doubt about whether these games will take place at all.
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...reliant-on-covid-19-vaccine-senior-ioc-member
> And, even more pessimistic:
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...unlikely-to-happen-in-2021-virus-experts-warn
> ...



Canon had never built a major product for a specific event. While it would be an additional benefit to introduce a new product at such an event, it is by no means driven by it. Life and work is more than just Olympics. There are tens of thousands of professionals out there who embrace the newest high-end mirrorles - regardless of Olympics. And Canon knows that. And that is why they will release it as soon as they have a product together that will meet expections of a 1-eries. Olympics or not.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 3, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Uhm, you are still missing a few points.
> 1. A9 offers a blackout free continuous shooting
> 2. A9 offers an excellent subject tracking in Continuous shooting
> 3.A9 offers a very low latency EVF
> ...



And your point?
It is very old as it was not any real upgrade from the I version.
1DX MIII goes 20 fps as well
NO latency in the viewfinder.
much better battery life 
Far more rugged build 
Infinitely more native lenses.


----------



## AEWest (May 3, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> And your point?
> It is very old as it was not any real upgrade from the I version.
> 1DX MIII goes 20 fps as well
> NO latency in the viewfinder.
> ...


Not to mention an unlimited buffer and cfast cards...


----------



## SecureGSM (May 3, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> And your point?
> It is very old as it was not any real upgrade from the I version.
> 1DX MIII goes 20 fps as well
> NO latency in the viewfinder.
> ...


Did you forget what your original statement was?

+++ The 5 shoots action better than the a9

A.M.: how 1DxIII is a “5” Series camera?

+++ It is very old as it was not any real upgrade from the I version.
A.M.: what is? A9 is the original A9. It was released in 2017. Not an upgrade.

+++NO latency in the viewfinder

A.M.: are you taking 1DxIII? Why?
We are looking at Canon mirrorless 5 series vs A9.

+++much better battery life

A.M.: are you referring to 1DxIII again? Or to yet to be released R5?

+++++Infinitely more native lenses.

A.M.: are you saying that there more native (RF) glass available now than in Sony E mount?

I get your point: Canon system is better. Sure.
however, your idea that “ The 5 shoots action better than the a9” has nothing to do with reality I am living in. In my reality Canon 5 Series mirrorless cameras are yet to be released.


----------



## Ruiloba (May 3, 2020)

I wish that the R5 is an sport/action camera but i doubt it is blackout free. Also the R9 has no rolling shutter wich is such a great future for wildlife (if i could shoot silent without rolling shutter this will be my main shutting mode)


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## Czardoom (May 3, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> It seemed like there were more canon trolls on the forum than anything. The canon enthusiasts I know were not defensive about canon at all. They were unhappy with products that were lacking innovation for years. It started slowly but the last 2 years they got really upset about this. They wanted canon to do better so that they could have but a better product. Most of them have several L lenses like me which creates a barrier to switching. I think canon knows that our lens investment creates a barrier to users switching. That can lead to less customer centric behavior because the competition has to be so much better to entice folks to switch platforms.
> 
> this forum just didn’t reflect the mood I sensed anywhere in the real world. My safari group was concerned that canon was falling behind. My scuba groups were already dismissive of canon and their segmentation strategy. I can go on. But on this forum their was this hostility to the fact that canon had a brewing problem. I mostly saw canon trolls who seemed to say that everything canon made was fantastic. The 6d mark 2 was a disappointment and the R on its release was a unpolished recycled part product. The canon trolls will just say it’s all terrific and folks rush out and buy these substandard products at ridiculous prices. Canon built an amazing reputation for innovation a decade ago and that reputation helps fuels sales. But 1-2 years ago was a real low point. I am happy that I didn’t switch as I see canons upcoming products. Their new products show that we’re paying attention to where the market is going. I suspect that they fell behind on some technology and used their amazing brand strength to mitigate defections while they worked on new products.
> 
> ...



It seems like what you are saying is: 
1) those that complained about Canon were being accurate and justified, and
2) those that were happy with Canon and thought their products were better than the competition were wrong and "trolls."

And you wonder why people responded to opinions such as this defensively and even with some anger?

You say, "The 6d mark 2 was a disappointment," as if this is a fact. In my opinion, based on comments on this and other forums, most 6D users are very happy with the camera and found that it performed better than they expected.

You say, "the R on its release was a unpolished recycled part product," Unpolished? What exactly does that mean, and whatever it does to you, it is just your opinion, not fact. You can say that they used the same sensor as the 5D IV, that is accurate, to call it recycled is not. You could also quite accurately state that many camera makers use the same sensor in different models or from one generation to the next. You could also say that Canon used their best sensor from the 5D IV in a camera that was considerably cheaper in the R. 

You say, "The canon trolls will just say it’s all terrific and folks rush out and buy these substandard products at ridiculous prices." Again, you state that the products are substandard as if it is a fact. Kind of odd as many photographers would say that Canon color is the best. And that Canon ergonomics are the best or at least equal to Nikon. That Canon menus and ease of use is industry leading. Is having a fully articulated screen substandard? It's one of the reasons I bought the R. Is having a sensor dust screen substandard? Simple as this spec is, it is one of the main reasons I bought the R. Perhaps all the other brands that don't have this dust screen are substandard? So, apparently, the areas that Canon specs are not equal to other brands over-rides areas that they do as well or better. Maybe, just maybe, some of those Canon trolls you mention are merely pointing out instances where the complainers are unable to articulate their thoughts in a realistic way - confusing fact with opinion. Or ignoring all aspects of a camera and just singling out the areas that they think should be improved. 

Your use of the word "ridiculous" when it comes to price is once again just your opinion. If Canon's prices were actually ridiculous to most camera buyers, it seem unlikely that they would lead the world in sales year after year. Arguably, price is the biggest factor when people make purchases. The question isn't always, how is the price compared competitor's similar models. The question, for many is, is the product worth the price? Personally, having bought Canon and Sony FF cameras over the past 7 or 8 years, I am quite happy to pay a higher price for the Canon as I have found them to be superior products in terms of durability, dependability and the quality of various specs. (Sony for example, as has been well documented, has had sensor dust and over-heating issues). In my opinion, one reason Sony cameras are cheaper than the competition, is that they are made cheaper than other brands in many ways. 

As an R owner, I compared the R with similar products from other brands. In my opinion, there were more plusses with the R that made me decide to buy it over less expensive Sony or Nikon cameras. Again, comments on forums indicate that most users finds the camera to be better than they thought it would be and are very satisfied. Apparently, this makes us trolls or Canon defenders because we don't agree with you. 

It seems to me, that you are prone to the same lack of perspective that afflicts many forum users. "What I want must be what others want. What I think is most important others must think is most important."


----------



## koch1948 (May 3, 2020)

DBounce said:


> The R5 will be a preorder for me. I already own the trinity. Hard to know what to make of a R1... my 1DXMK2 was magical... but due to its size and weight it only traveled on deliberate shoots. The size/weight is the EOS R means it goes along for the ride more frequently than the 1 series did.


I also find the weight of the EOS-1D X Mark II to be quite heavy. However, many of the RF "L" lenses seem to be heavy. if it were me, I would want proper balance between camera body and its RF "L" lenses. Thus, I would not want a camera body which is too lightweight. It will be interesting to read up on the EOS R5 camera body weight when the final specifications are published.


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## Architect1776 (May 3, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Did you forget what your original statement was?
> 
> +++ The 5 shoots action better than the a9
> 
> ...



I doubt Canon themselves would be lying about the R5 performance.
Sony a9II 24mp, video 4K 30p, 20 FPS electronic, 10 FPS mechanical, eye AF, Primitive contrast AF, 2 slow SDXC.
Canon R5 45mp +-, video 8K 30p, 4K 120p, 20 FPS electronic, 12 fps mechanical, Eye AF and animal body, head and eye AF, industry leading DPAF in ALL modes including 8K Dual cards including 1 CFExpress.

Sony's best pro is easily outclassed by Canon's advanced enthusiast mirrorless. Even the Canon 1DX MIII easily outclasses the a9II being a DSLR in most every aspect.
Finally Canon has far more lenses for every condition.
Canon does not need Native RF lenses to lead in that ALL EF and EFs are 100% compatible with the RF as if native. And the RF lenses are rapidly coming and are industry leading designs that Sony is incapable of making due to the minuscule lens mount. At least Nikon got that right.


----------



## DBounce (May 3, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> I also find the weight of the EOS-1D X Mark II to be quite heavy. However, many of the RF "L" lenses seem to be heavy. if it were me, I would want proper balance between camera body and its RF "L" lenses. Thus, I would not want a camera body which is too lightweight. It will be interesting to read up on the EOS R5 camera body weight when the final specifications are published.



The lenses I have seem balanced enough on the R, so I’m not concerned with balance on the R5. In any case there will be a handgrip.


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## Ozarker (May 3, 2020)

DBounce said:


> The lenses I have seem balanced enough on the R, so I’m not concerned with balance on the R5. In any case there will be a handgrip.


I simply keep my right hand on the body and my left under the lens. Balance isn't a problem. I did the very same thing when using a big lens (EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II) on my 5D Mark III. In my opinion, the "balance" argument people are making is way over blown. Attach any big lens to any camera body and the balance point is always going to be somewhere out on the lens and never at the mount. Just move the left hand to the balance point and all is good. Seems simple enough to me, but it sounds difficult for many. Throw on a 400mm - 800mm lens and the weight of the body really doesn't matter, in my opinion, when it comes to balance. If it ain't on a tripod, the left hand is supporting the lens anyway.


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## Fischer (May 3, 2020)

chasingrealness said:


> I’m really excited about the R5, but I only really shoot photos, so an R5s or something of that nature being on the roadmap would definitely make me stop and think about waiting for that to drop. But it would have to have competitive dynamic range, IBIS an equivalent autofocus system to what the R5 is promising for me to really buy in. Maybe I’m just getting lazy but I think AF is a major part of the mirrorless value proposition. Super high resolution is great, but if you don’t nail focus then it’s wasted. Fingers crossed that Canon has finally retired the cripple hammer.


Canon upgraded the AF for the 5DS/R (far better than the 5DIII) so more likely they will step AF up than down with the next high MPIX model.


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## Fischer (May 3, 2020)

mpmark said:


> R6 - fast lower budget birders/sports
> R5 - does it all
> R5s - a studio and landscape dream (high MP, lower shutter speeds)


Just like the 5DS/R was as good or better than the 5DIII in all aspects except a litte less FPS a mirrorless 5RS will do everything the 5DIV does - and then some. It will be faster, have more FPS, have better AF etc. Like the 5DS/R it will therefore be a do-all camera for those who want the MPIX advantage it brings to stills, but probably with less video options than the 5R and maybe slightly less FPS.


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## usern4cr (May 4, 2020)

Fischer said:


> Just like the 5DS/R was as good or better than the 5DIII in all aspects except a litte less FPS a mirrorless 5RS will do everything the 5DIV does - and then some. It will be faster, have more FPS, have better AF etc. Like the 5DS/R it will therefore be a do-all camera for those who want the MPIX advantage it brings to stills, but probably with less video options than the 5R and maybe slightly less FPS.


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## navastronia (May 4, 2020)

Ruiloba said:


> I wish that the R5 is an sport/action camera but i doubt it is blackout free. Also the R9 has no rolling shutter wich is such a great future for wildlife (if i could shoot silent without rolling shutter this will be my main shutting mode)



I expect the R1 will have no-blackout shooting and limited rolling shutter.


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## Drcampbellicu (May 4, 2020)

it’s honestly not me or what I want
The industry and real world folks that shoot with canon have all thought that canon was slipping or something the past few years. They’re all super happy that the upcoming products look great and innovative 

But this forum just sometimes feels like a fanboy forum and not something more levelheaded. I am glad If you love everything canon has made and think it’s flawless. My take home point remains.



Czardoom said:


> It seems like what you are saying is:
> 1) those that complained about Canon were being accurate and justified, and
> 2) those that were happy with Canon and thought their products were better than the competition were wrong and "trolls."
> 
> ...


----------



## SecureGSM (May 4, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> I doubt Canon themselves would be lying about the R5 performance.
> Sony a9II 24mp, video 4K 30p, 20 FPS electronic, 10 FPS mechanical, eye AF, Primitive contrast AF, 2 slow SDXC.
> Canon R5 45mp +-, video 8K 30p, 4K 120p, 20 FPS electronic, 12 fps mechanical, Eye AF and animal body, head and eye AF, industry leading DPAF in ALL modes including 8K Dual cards including 1 CFExpress.
> 
> ...


Wow... I am really hesitant to say this: please stop throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks.
it did not work. You obviously not an action or sport photographer. Your understanding of action / sport camera requirements is lacking
I get that you like Canon. So do I. But please stop embarrassing yourself as you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sony A9 has “Primitive contrast AF”?
Just what the hell are you smoking? 
its all PDAF and fast


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## unfocused (May 4, 2020)

Is it just me, or are the arguments getting more and more ridiculous on this thread? I know that's pretty typical once you get past two or three pages, but it seems like it is getting worse. Maybe it's lockdown frustration.

At this point no one has any clue if the R5 and R6 will be fantastic or not. How about we give it a few months (hopefully) for an actual announcement and reviews and then we can all resume the fighting.


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## ramen2hot (May 4, 2020)

Canon EOS R6
What I really want is better build quality than the EOS R, even if it's by a little


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## Mr Majestyk (May 4, 2020)

Well where is the 7DII replacment, surely madness to not have an AP-C RF mount by 2021. I have ZERO interest in EOS-M system, so don’t let that be the only APPS-C system. Nikon and SOny have APS-C Canon would be foolish not to do the same. EOS-M lens system will always be lame compared to RF. EOS R7 and EOS R5s would be my guess and EOS R1 in 2022 maybe a bit earlier if they can have it ready for Winter Olympics. EOS R9 makes sense for RP replacement.


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## geffy (May 4, 2020)

I doubt anyone can see beyond the r5 just now with most people running down their existing equipment with a long term view to down sizing due to the economy, the R is a bargain just now that should cover the time till the new bodies drop in price, glad i bought the m50's too, the glass i have is permanent and the bodies are secondary , just my lock down thinking


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## unfocused (May 4, 2020)

ramen2hot said:


> Canon EOS R6
> What I really want is better build quality than the EOS R, even if it's by a little


What do you find lacking in the build quality of the R? I've used one for nearly a year, and while there are many things I'd like to see improved, build quality isn't even on the list.


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## derpderp (May 4, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Wow... I am really hesitant to say this: please stop throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks.
> it did not work. You obviously not an action or sport photographer. Your understanding of action / sport camera requirements is lacking
> I get that you like Canon. So do I. But please stop embarrassing yourself as you have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> ...



Don't get too worked up over his comments. It's pretty obvious that he was just reciting specs without actually using any of those cameras. The A9II and its predecessor are excellent sports cameras, but they do suffer from banding in certain scenarios. The blackout free EVF is a real achievement for mirrorless cameras. Sony's AF is STILL market leading, but Canon is rapidly catching up. I'm personally very excited about the R5; hopefully it'll be released soon so that I can compare it with my experience with Sony cameras.


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## derpderp (May 4, 2020)

unfocused said:


> What do you find lacking in the build quality of the R? I've used one for nearly a year, and while there are many things I'd like to see improved, build quality isn't even on the list.





ramen2hot said:


> Canon EOS R6
> What I really want is better build quality than the EOS R, even if it's by a little



He probably wants an all metal EOS R camera. Might I suggest a Leica?


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## ramen2hot (May 4, 2020)

unfocused said:


> What do you find lacking in the build quality of the R? I've used one for nearly a year, and while there are many things I'd like to see improved, build quality isn't even on the list.


Replacement of touch bar
Improved button placement
TBH, similar to the R5 from the outside


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## derpderp (May 4, 2020)

ramen2hot said:


> Replacement of touch bar
> Improved button placement
> TBH, similar to the R5 from the outside



ahhh..... those are actually 'ergonomic' changes, rather than 'build quality' changes. I have an EOS R and I do agree that the touch bar is largely useless. I would love to have a traditional joystick instead for quick AF point shifts.


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## Starting out EOS R (May 4, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I simply keep my right hand on the body and my left under the lens. Balance isn't a problem. I did the very same thing when using a big lens (EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II) on my 5D Mark III. In my opinion, the "balance" argument people are making is way over blown. Attach any big lens to any camera body and the balance point is always going to be somewhere out on the lens and never at the mount. Just move the left hand to the balance point and all is good. Seems simple enough to me, but it sounds difficult for many. Throw on a 400mm - 800mm lens and the weight of the body really doesn't matter, in my opinion, when it comes to balance. If it ain't on a tripod, the left hand is supporting the lens anyway.


I Agree, I have an RF 70-200 F/2.8L on my R and find it fine. I've even taken off the tripod collar as the lens is shorter when at 70mm & it doesn't need it. Even at 200mm it's fine secured to the tripod on the camera fixing. As you do, I just have my left hand under the lens when not on a tripod & I don't use an extension grip either. The R5 looks slightly chunkier and may be a little heavier so all to the good. As I've said before, people obsess too much about detail instead of just getting on with things lol


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## 12Broncos (May 4, 2020)

They're having a hard enough time releasing the R5, no less two other cameras. Release the R5 then think about other cameras.


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## degos (May 4, 2020)

sanj said:


> Not really. I can (and am sure many others can) pick up any Canon camera (if they have learned 1dx2 or 3 very well) and figure any other camera within a few hours.



It's a lot more nuanced than "I know where the ISO button is located". It takes a lot of shooting to become familiar with how the AF behaves and fails, or what ISO is best under certain lighting.

Just like moving from one generation of a Corvette to another.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 4, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Wow... I am really hesitant to say this: please stop throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks.
> it did not work. You obviously not an action or sport photographer. Your understanding of action / sport camera requirements is lacking
> I get that you like Canon. So do I. But please stop embarrassing yourself as you have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> ...



It is NOT DPAF thus is worthless primitive crap by comparison.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 4, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> It is NOT DPAF thus is worthless primitive crap by comparison.


I said: PDAF. Phase-Detect Auto Focus. This is exactly the type of auto focus being used by 1D series Canon cameras for OVF focusing. 

DPAF, as we know it, so far has been more precise but also quite a bit slower in current Canon implementation.
Anyway, I strongly suggest that you should stop embarrassing yourself. You are obviously not up to speed with technology. Not too worry. It’s all good.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 4, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I said: PDAF. Phase-Detect Auto Focus. This is exactly the type of auto focus being used by 1D series Canon cameras for OVF focusing.
> 
> DPAF, as we know it, so far has been more precise but also quite a bit slower in current Canon implementation.
> Anyway, I strongly suggest that you should stop embarrassing yourself. You are obviously not up to speed with technology. Not too worry. It’s all good.



I am tired of Sony apologists who just cannot admit Canon as far as true innovation leads the pack and the R5 is confirming this in a HUGE way.


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## SecureGSM (May 4, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> I am tired of Sony apologists who just cannot admit Canon as far as true innovation leads the pack and the R5 is confirming this in a HUGE way.


I am a Canon apologist If that matters to you. However your perception of R5 being a sport camera is incorrect.


----------



## richperson (May 4, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Oh, I agree with that. I fully expect that if a 1 series mirrorless is ready by the time the Summer Olympics finally take place Canon will be promoting the hell out of it. What I took issue with is the idea that Canon would be preparing an "R1" for actual day-to-day, event-to-event use by professional photographers tasked with covering the Olympics and that would somehow be driving the development timetable of the still mythical R1.
> 
> It's a rather subtle distinction, but the point is that those who think Canon is rushing to get an R1 body ready for use by professionals at the Olympics aren't thinking about the dynamics of the Olympics, which is a unique venue that carries high risk for photographers who are under pressure to get the shots. One of the reasons Canon released the 1Dx III when they did was so that photographers would have it in hand and be totally comfortable with it well in advance of the Olympics. And that's a line that photographers were already intimately familiar with.
> 
> In addition, people conveniently ignore the unique challenges that the RF mount presents. I've shot sports trying to use the R as a second body. While the adapter works flawlessly with EF glass, switching back and forth is a pain in the ass, as is carrying duplicate lenses for both mounts. This won't prevent Canon from heavily promoting the R1 when it is ready , whether at the Olympics or other venues, but it will seriously hamper the ultimate adoption of the RF mount for everyday use by professionals.



I completely agree with everything you said. Excited to see an R1 come out, but a lot will have to change to make it a compelling choice over the 1DXiii. A lot of those challenges I'm not really convinced they will overcome. There are just some physical realities of working with a live OVF view that would be hard to even match, let alone overcome.


----------



## richperson (May 4, 2020)

koch1948 said:


> I also find the weight of the EOS-1D X Mark II to be quite heavy. However, many of the RF "L" lenses seem to be heavy. if it were me, I would want proper balance between camera body and its RF "L" lenses. Thus, I would not want a camera body which is too lightweight. It will be interesting to read up on the EOS R5 camera body weight when the final specifications are published.



Each person views this weight balance differently, but I have use both my 1DXii and my R (with battery grip) with my 400mm f/2.8 and really don't mind either. To me, the existence of the battery grip is what makes the biggest amount of difference, not so much the weight. Sure, the balance changes somewhat, but not to the point I notice it. That might be different from someone with less . . . girth than I have.


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## Architect1776 (May 4, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I am a Canon apologist If that matters to you. However your perception of R5 being a sport camera is incorrect.



Let us see, 12fps beats the crap out of Sony a9II at 10fps.
Both have 20 fps electronic.
Canon has better tracking per specs.
The DPAF is the AF fastest system available and the smoothest and most accurate.
So either the R5 is not for sports and the far lesser a9II then qualifies as a distant second not for sports.
Or the R5 is for sports and the a9II is a distant second for sports.


----------



## jolyonralph (May 4, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Let us see, 12fps beats the crap out of Sony a9II at 10fps.
> Both have 20 fps electronic.
> Canon has better tracking per specs.
> The DPAF is the AF fastest system available and the smoothest and most accurate.
> ...



A9 has no blackout. R5 almost certainly will. Which is why the A9 II will remain the leader until the EOS R1 is launched.


----------



## BillB (May 4, 2020)

richperson said:


> I completely agree with everything you said. Excited to see an R1 come out, but a lot will have to change to make it a compelling choice over the 1DXiii. A lot of those challenges I'm not really convinced they will overcome. There are just some physical realities of working with a live OVF view that would be hard to even match, let alone overcome.


This is why I wonder when we are going to see an R1. It may be a while, I think.


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## richperson (May 4, 2020)

BillB said:


> This is why I wonder when we are going to see an R1. It may be a while, I think.



The first reviews of the R5 will likely tell us how long it will be before we see an R1. From my R sports use, the biggest issues are EVF lag and battery life/EVF not falling asleep and waking slowly. If you are shooting with two bodies, you cannot pull up one and wait a second for the EVF to wake. And running the EVF full time drains the battery.


----------



## Czardoom (May 5, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> it’s honestly not me or what I want
> The industry and real world folks that shoot with canon have all thought that canon was slipping or something the past few years. They’re all super happy that the upcoming products look great and innovative
> 
> But this forum just sometimes feels like a fanboy forum and not something more levelheaded. I am glad If you love everything canon has made and think it’s flawless. My take home point remains.



 I have to laugh because I thought I had made my points clear. And yet, it seems as if you completely missed the point. Not just missed the point, but misinterpreted the points. I will try to make it clearer.

Many folks reply to criticism of Canon - not because they feel the need to defend everything about Canon, but because folks present opinion as fact, or totally exaggerate their criticisms. We may even agree with some of the criticisms, but react to those unfair and exaggerated claims. Such as, "The industry and real world folks that shoot with canon have all thought that canon was slipping..." 

Should we ignore something that is an obvious exaggeration? "All"? All Canon shooters think Canon was slipping? Even a quick reading of forum comments clearly give you the evidence that some Canon shooters are happy with their cameras and don't agree that Canon is slipping. So, if I reply to that, does that make me a fanboy? Or does it make me level-headed when I point out that it is more accurate for someone to say, "I, and some photographers I know think Canon was slipping."

You also misrepresent what I say with your comment that I, "love everything canon has made and think it’s flawless." Nowhere did I say anything even remotely like this. Here is what I actually wrote, "So, apparently, the areas that Canon specs are not equal to other brands over-rides areas that they do as well or better. Maybe, just maybe, some of those Canon trolls you mention are merely pointing out instances where the complainers are unable to articulate their thoughts in a realistic way - confusing fact with opinion. Or ignoring all aspects of a camera and just singling out the areas that they think should be improved."

Not only do I not say that Canon cameras are flawless, but I clearly mention "areas that Canon specs are not equal to other brands..." Nowhere do I say that I love everything Canon has made. I guess I should just let that go. Don't want to make it seem like replying and trying to set the record straight makes me a fanboy. 



Drcampbellicu said:


> it’s honestly not me or what I want
> The industry and real world folks that shoot with canon have all thought that canon was slipping or something the past few years. They’re all super happy that the upcoming products look great and innovative
> 
> But this forum just sometimes feels like a fanboy forum and not something more levelheaded. I am glad If you love everything canon has made and think it’s flawless. My take home point remains.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 5, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Let us see, 12fps beats the crap out of Sony a9II at 10fps.
> Both have 20 fps electronic.
> Canon has better tracking per specs.
> The DPAF is the AF fastest system available and the smoothest and most accurate.
> ...


Are you not listening? Stop pretending you even understand what you are saying. You have no slightest idea of what makes a great sport camera.

+++++ Canon has better tracking per specs.

A.M:
1. per specs??? Are you even serious?
You are talking about non released, untested camera.
2. what are those “tracking specs”??


----------



## Architect1776 (May 5, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> A9 has no blackout. R5 almost certainly will. Which is why the A9 II will remain the leader until the EOS R1 is launched.



How do you know?


----------



## Drcampbellicu (May 5, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> I have to laugh because I thought I had made my points clear. And yet, it seems as if you completely missed the point. Not just missed the point, but misinterpreted the points. I will try to make it clearer.
> 
> Many folks reply to criticism of Canon - not because they feel the need to defend everything about Canon, but because folks present opinion as fact, or totally exaggerate their criticisms. We may even agree with some of the criticisms, but react to those unfair and exaggerated claims. Such as, "The industry and real world folks that shoot with canon have all thought that canon was slipping..."
> 
> ...




it’s never helpful to get lost in someone else’s narrative. My point remains..
the R5 is the most exciting camera of 2020 by fat. It’s exciting despite being based on things that many on this forum have been bashing for years now.

ibis
Mirrorless 
Smaller/lighter form factor: it’s not a big dslr 
Canon is moving towards AI based AF
Video is a key selling point

this camera takes everything that Sony was winning sales on and appears to do match or leapfrog it. It means that there’s value in moving in that direction. I’m glad it happened and I think more folks will warn to this once they use a refined canon product with them.


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## Foa2020 (May 5, 2020)

Sigh. Canon can go on like this with 10 more new bodies and lenses. I need real world reviews of the R5 / C300 III to read any more news on future promises without getting irritated. Now it is showtime.


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## SecureGSM (May 5, 2020)

Foa2020 said:


> Sigh. Canon can go on like this with 10 more new bodies and lenses. I need real world reviews of the R5 / C300 III to read any more news on future promises without getting irritated. Now it is showtime.


Show time?
Here are some facts for you regarding how pandemic affected economy and life in Australia. A country with population around 25 million people.

Mr Morrison, the Prime Minister of Australia, said today that the current restrictions are costing the economy approximately $4 billion a week.

"By the end of the day, more than a million Australians will have had the claims process for jobseeker. Around 5 million are estimated to be on JobKeeper," said Mr Morrison.

One million Aussies are accessing their own superannuation early.

Around 340,000 businesses are accessing $7 million in cash flow assistance.
PM Scott Morrison outlined some rough figures on job losses, which equate to well over a million people.

In industries most heavily affected by restrictions – such as hospitality – as many as 708,000 jobs have been lost.

In construction, it's 120,000 jobs.

In Retail, it has been 146,000 jobs.

In arts and recreation (like tourist activities and museums) it is 180,000 jobs.


----------



## Drcampbellicu (May 5, 2020)

I don’t think he meant to disparage suffering due to covid
There’s just a lot of excitement for these new products. Folks have been waiting for canons true response to the mirrorless movement for years and it’s nigh

That’s the positive way I look at it



SecureGSM said:


> Show time?
> Here are some facts for you regarding how pandemic affected economy and life in Australia. A country with population around 25 million people.
> 
> Mr Morrison, the Prime Minister of Australia, said today that the current restrictions are costing the economy approximately $4 billion a week.
> ...


----------



## Foa2020 (May 6, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Show time?
> Here are some facts for you regarding how pandemic affected economy and life in Australia. A country with population around 25 million people.
> 
> Mr Morrison, the Prime Minister of Australia, said today that the current restrictions are costing the economy approximately $4 billion a week.
> ...


----------



## SecureGSM (May 6, 2020)

Please read:
Now it is not a good time for introduction of any products apart from WFH essentials or enterprise products that assist enterprises adapting to so called “New normal”. Or a medical tech targeting pandemic. 
let’s be realistic here


----------



## derpderp (May 6, 2020)

Doug7131 said:


> Thanks for letting us know. Unfortunately, the last checked my hands were the same size as they were when I bought my 7D which I find extremely comfortable to hold for long periods of time. The ergonomics of a camera, is for me, the most important aspect of a camera. It’s the reason I will never buy a Sony body until they create a camera that doesn’t have the ergonomics of a brick.



Actually, having used both the Sony A7R4 and the EOS R, I can say with certainty that there's next to no appreciable difference in ergonomics between the two.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 6, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Actually, having used both the Sony A7R4 and the EOS R, I can say with certainty that there's next to no appreciable difference in ergonomics between the two.


Apparently, the grip is pretty tight on SONY cameras. Don’t trust the same issue exists on Canon R
https://2.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS560x560~forums/61029201/a86b15b163ad416a863dcd6d2daea846


----------



## derpderp (May 6, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Apparently, the grip is pretty tight on SONY cameras. Don’t trust the same issue exists on Canon R
> https://2.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS560x560~forums/61029201/a86b15b163ad416a863dcd6d2daea846



The A7R4's grip is significantly improved over previous generations. However, your experience may vary depending on hand size / finger thickness / lens used. For my set up, A7R4 + 20mm F1.8, it has worked well for me without my fingers getting trapped.


----------



## jolyonralph (May 6, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> How do you know?



Well, Canon are marketing it as a 5D-range camera, I think if they were targeting it as a A9 killer then this would already have leaked. 

Let's see how well it works. In reality 20fps shooting with blackout may not be that different to 20fps shooting without.


----------



## cayenne (May 6, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Please read:
> Now it is not a good time for introduction of any products apart from WFH essentials or enterprise products that assist enterprises adapting to so called “New normal”. Or a medical tech targeting pandemic.
> let’s be realistic here




Well, let's be fair to everyone.

Not everyone has lost their job or doesn't have savings.

There's nothing wrong with that either. 

Every company out there is going to struggle to come back and avoid going out of business. If canon is going to sell cameras to keep from going out of business (yes, I know they have their hands in other areas of business)....then there is nothing wrong with that.

Even before the pandemic, there were haves and have nots.....that's the nature of life.

This pandemic is horrible, yes, even 1 life lost is too much, however....life must go on. It has with past pandemics and will with this and future ones.

Trying to go on with life is not wrong, it is not disrespectful for those we've lost....it is just a fact of life.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 6, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> Well, Canon are marketing it as a 5D-range camera, I think if they were targeting it as a A9 killer then this would already have leaked.
> 
> Let's see how well it works. In reality 20fps shooting with blackout may not be that different to 20fps shooting without.



My point is for a 5D type camera it looks to substantially outperform the a9II. So what will the 1D mirrorless look like? It will be some kind of monster, 16 fps mechanical shutter, faster than 20 fps electronic shutter you are reaching 24p video.


----------



## jolyonralph (May 7, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> My point is for a 5D type camera it looks to substantially outperform the a9II. So what will the 1D mirrorless look like? It will be some kind of monster, 16 fps mechanical shutter, faster than 20 fps electronic shutter you are reaching 24p video.



EOS R1 will obviously have a bigger body with integrated grip giving a far more useful battery life, it will have the pro features missing from the R5 such as ethernet port and the new touch control from the 1DX III. It will be more robust, better weather sealing, and have a shutter rated for a longer life. If we're very lucky Canon it may have a global shutter sensor.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 7, 2020)

jolyonralph said:


> EOS R1 will obviously have a bigger body with integrated grip giving a far more useful battery life, it will have the pro features missing from the R5 such as ethernet port and the new touch control from the 1DX III. It will be more robust, better weather sealing, and have a shutter rated for a longer life. If we're very lucky Canon it may have a global shutter sensor.



Global shutter will be an absolute dream come true. Then put it on every other Canon camera.


----------



## cayenne (May 7, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Global shutter will be an absolute dream come true. Then put it on every other Canon camera.




Can someone give me a quick idea on what is different about a "global shutter" is vs the usual ones we all seem to be currently using?

What is different on it physically as well as functionally?

Sorry for what must sound like a noob question, but I keep seeing the terms thrown around and don't know what is different about that shutter.

I'm familiar with the effects of a non-global shutter when shooting video and moving the camera where you get the jello effect....but don't quite know what a global shutter would look like vs the curtain ones I've seen demonstrated, etc....

Thank you in advance,

c


----------



## koenkooi (May 7, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Can someone give me a quick idea on what is different about a "global shutter" is vs the usual ones we all seem to be currently using?
> [..]



A global shutter is a fully electronic shutter where every pixel stops its sampling at the same time. So you can have really slow readout of the sensor with no jello effect since 'capture' and 'readout' are now separate, independent operations.

From what I've read the extra on-sensor elements needed for current global shutter designs take away about a stop of light, so the DR and low-light crowd will need some extra convincing


----------



## Architect1776 (May 7, 2020)

cayenne said:


> Can someone give me a quick idea on what is different about a "global shutter" is vs the usual ones we all seem to be currently using?
> 
> What is different on it physically as well as functionally?
> 
> ...



In simple terms the global shutter does the whole sensor at once instead of starting at one side or top and reading the sensor a line at a time. This removes the distortion of a moving subject that occurs.
The old leaf shutters in cameras like the RB67 are a mechanical equivalent.
There are far more technical explanations that put one to sleep.
B&H has a good article on this.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/video/tips-and-solutions/rolling-shutter-versus-global-shutter


----------



## privatebydesign (May 7, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> The old leaf shutters in cameras like the RB67 are a mechanical equivalent.


Kind of, but not really. Global shutters have the potential to be vastly better than leaf shutters which in actuality act like reverse grad neutral density filters because it takes time for the shutter petals to travel the distance they have to, they also impact depth of field because they act as a second aperture opening.

Of course global shutters require more complicated sensor circuitry that limits resolution and increases cost. Current tech doesn't point to global shutters for stills orientated cameras any time soon particularly at the sensor resolutions the pro/am stills cameras are putting out now.


----------



## koenkooi (May 7, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Kind of, but not really. Global shutters have the potential to be vastly better than leaf shutters which in actuality act like reverse grad neutral density filters because it takes time for the shutter petals to travel the distance they have to, they also impact depth of field because they act as a second aperture opening.
> 
> Of course global shutters require more complicated sensor circuitry that limits resolution and increases cost. Current tech doesn't point to global shutters for stills orientated cameras any time soon particularly at the sensor resolutions the pro/am stills cameras are putting out now.



...and cue shot panning over to the R6 rumour on the frontpage


----------



## privatebydesign (May 7, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> ...and cue shot panning over to the R6 rumour on the frontpage


I don’t see R6 and global shutter in the same thread. Although the R6 is slated to be a low mp a global shutter doesn’t fit in with the suggestion of the R6 being a comparative budget model as there is no way around the added cost and complexity needed on the sensor for a global shutter, and if it is a 20mp camera it makes little sense to have not put that in the 1DX III, that would have been a feature that would have sold a lot of 1D series cameras.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 8, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Kind of, but not really. Global shutters have the potential to be vastly better than leaf shutters which in actuality act like reverse grad neutral density filters because it takes time for the shutter petals to travel the distance they have to, they also impact depth of field because they act as a second aperture opening.
> 
> Of course global shutters require more complicated sensor circuitry that limits resolution and increases cost. Current tech doesn't point to global shutters for stills orientated cameras any time soon particularly at the sensor resolutions the pro/am stills cameras are putting out now.



As I said, similar.


----------



## BillB (May 8, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I don’t see R6 and global shutter in the same thread. Although the R6 is slated to be a low mp a global shutter doesn’t fit in with the suggestion of the R6 being a comparative budget model as there is no way around the added cost and complexity needed on the sensor for a global shutter, and if it is a 20mp camera it makes little sense to have not put that in the 1DX III, that would have been a feature that would have sold a lot of 1D series cameras.


It wouldn’t be the first time that Canon introduced new technology well down the food chain.


----------



## Pixel (May 8, 2020)

We've all been speculating (including myself) that the pro body would be called the R1. Now that I sit and think about it, wouldn't the correct name be EOS 1R?


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

mpmark said:


> R6 - fast lower budget birders/sports
> R5 - does it all
> R5s - a studio and landscape dream (high MP, lower shutter speeds)



You have no clue what birders want if you think they'll settle for 20 MP.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

Pixel said:


> I still think the R1 is a no-brainer and now with the Olympics pushed back, that makes 2021 a perfect launch year for a pro mirrorless.






usern4cr said:


> Now that the Olympics have been delayed until Summer 2021, I expect Canon will introduce their R1 flagship body sufficiently before those Olympics so that they can claim FF mirrorless and DSLR bragging rights throughout the Olympics. If they don't do this, they will miss a golden opportunity to do so.



That's making a big assumption that "pushed back" doesn't morph into "cancelled altogether." There are already rumblings that 2021 might not happen.

If that were the case, putting out two new sports focused bodies during an 18 month time period when top level sports aren't even being contested at anything approaching normal levels of frequency could be disastrous for Canon.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I'm cool with the R1 landing in 2021, or even later, but Canon would be wise to think about how long they really want to cede the pro mirrorless world to other brands.



What, exactly, does the α9ii offer that the EOS R5 doesn't at least match? Based on the miniscule improvement between the α9 and α9ii, what will the α9iii include to place it ahead of the R5?

Canon doesn't have to have an R1 to challenge the α9 series. It appears the R5 is going to do that quite well, thank you.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

Juangrande said:


> And for me personally I almost never shoot without off camera strobes even outdoors so DR isn’t an issue for the way I work anyway.



Which makes the camera you need totally irrelevant to the camera spec fanboys.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

herein2020 said:


> I hope I'm wrong, but with those specs it makes sense. Also, I don't think those prices will last long, they will be the early adopter fee; but for all others you'd have to be willing to wait at least 6 months to benefit from a price drop. And actually, the price for entry will be far higher if you want to go with native R mount lenses. Otherwise you are stuck with EF lenses and the adapter.
> 
> Another pricing clue, although I'm not sure how accurate it is; I've seen the lensrentals rental price compared to the 1DXIII's rental price several times now, below is a quote from fstoppers:
> 
> ...



On the other hand, the R and RP currently rent from lensrentals.com at $88 and $74 per week, respectively. That would imply that, compared to $347/wk for a $6,499 1D X Mark III, they should be priced at $1,648 and $1,386, respectively. Yet current market price for the R and RP are $1,800 and $999. The R rents for only 19% more than the RP, yet costs 80% more to buy. There are more market forces at work driving lensrentals rates for certain items than how much the initial purchase cost is. The EOS Ra, for instance, rents for $145/wk! Does it cost 65% more than an EOS R? No, it's only 39% more expensive to buy at $2,499. Based on their current difference in purchase price, the Ra should rent for $122/wk compared to the R at $88/wk.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Roger responded to this in a dpreview thread, he stated it was essentially a placeholder.



Yeah, but you can't do the same thing when comparing currently offered products, either. Please see my comment directly above this one. The comparative purchase prices of the Ra, R, and RP do not line up very well with the comparative weekly rental prices of the same three items at lensrentals.com.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

canonnews said:


> there's little hardware in the R5 that is solely dedicated to stills. as we took great pains to break down in our article about it.



I think the entire point is that there are a lot of other factors beyond cost of components that go into the sale price. Market forces can very often be a much greater influence than the costs of R&D, production, and distribution. Sure, they've got to sell things for more than it costs them to make them, but the question of "how much more" is often determined by external factors.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

mpmark said:


> I tend to agree with your argument, alhough in Canon's case going if we go by history I dont see that happening. I hope I am wrong, I wouldnt be buying their flagship 1d mirrorless anyway but it would honestly surprise me if they released a 1dx level camera in the mirrorless line so soon after the 1dxiii. My guess is they release it 2 years from now but I could be wrong. The Sony A9 line may change that. But Canon did mention that they believe the OVF is still king when it comes to sports photography as EVF has the lag. That's their words not mine. Like I mentioned, I dont see it any time soon.



Canon doesn't need an R1 line to challenge the Sony α9 series. The R5 is going to do that rather well.


----------



## canonnews (May 9, 2020)

BillB said:


> It wouldn’t be the first time that Canon introduced new technology well down the food chain.


global shutter needs a stacked sensor to pull it off well. the technology that canon has revolving around current global shutters in production are video centric only. taking two subsequent frames does not work for stills but does for video.


----------



## canonnews (May 9, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I think the entire point is that there are a lot of other factors beyond cost of components that go into the sale price. Market forces can very often be a much greater influence than the costs of R&D, production, and distribution. Sure, they've got to sell things for more than it costs them to make them, but the question of "how much more" is often determined by external factors.


hahaha .. oh man that was a bad typo. I mean dedicated to "VIDEO"


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> Yes it is. The gap between that and the R5 does not make any sense.



It's called the EOS R. It has 30.3 MP and currently sells for around $1,799. It will not disappear from the catalog anytime soon.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

BillB said:


> We really
> 
> At this point, we don‘t know much about the AF and EVF of the R5, and we don’t know how close Canon is to having the AF and EVF ready for the F1. So technical Issues may be a factor in the timing of the R1.



If the 1D X Mark III in Live View is any indication, that part is ready now.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> a9 being positioned as an action / sports camera competing with Canon 1 series cameras. Not 5 series. its all good though..



That may be where Sony wants to position it, but what does the α9ii offer that the R5 doesn't favorably compare in terms of performance, ergonomics, durability, etc?


----------



## SecureGSM (May 9, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That may be where Sony wants to position it, but what does the α9ii offer that the R5 doesn't favorably compare in terms of performance, ergonomics, durability, etc?


Sony A9:

1. Confirmed nearly lag free EVF
2. Confirmed blackout free EVF
3. Confirmed excellent continuous AF tracking. 

R5: unconfirmed.
According to Canon, R5 is not being positioned as a sport / action cam. That’s likely a hint.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

canonnews said:


> hahaha .. oh man that was a bad typo. I mean dedicated to "VIDEO"



Point still stands. Market forces have a huge influence on pricing. It's not just about the cost of production plus a set markup rate.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Sony A9:
> 
> 1. Confirmed nearly lag free EVF
> 2. Confirmed blackout free EVF
> ...



On the other hand, 

We do know that the current α9ii is limited to 10 fps with mechanical shutter (and that the rolling shutter effect is fairly noticeable at 20 fps electronic shutter). The R5 is advertised to be capable of 12 fps mechanical and 20 fps electronic shutter. Rolling shutter effect remains to be seen, but with a sensor readout speed capable of 4K 120fps it should be no more of an issue than with the current Sony that maxes out at 4K 30/FHD 120.

We do know that current 5-Series bodys are at least as durable and weather resistant as the α9 bodies. And that's being generous to the Sony bodies.

Based on the Live View performance of the EOS 1D X Mark III, we know that Canon has demonstrated the ability to address all three of the points you raise. It remains to be seen how much of that will wind up in the R5, but with the current state of the ILC market, it would be rather foolish of Canon to not come at least fairly close with the R5 to the standards they have demonstrated there.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 9, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> On the other hand,
> 
> We do know that the current α9ii is limited to 10 fps with mechanical shutter (and that the rolling shutter effect is fairly noticeable at 20 fps electronic shutter). The R5 is advertised to be capable of 12 fps mechanical and 20 fps electronic shutter. Rolling shutter effect remains to be seen, but with a sensor readout speed capable of 4K 120fps it should be no more of an issue than with the current Sony that maxes out at 4K 30/FHD 120.
> 
> ...


Michael, based on assumptions only. Let’s see what R5 EVF performance really is for a fast action. Need some solid facts that are none at this stage. 
According to photorumors, R5 to be anounced on the May 16, 2020. Let’s wait and see.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Michael, based on assumptions only. Let’s see what R5 EVF performance really is for a fast action. Need some solid facts that are none at this stage.
> According to photorumors, R5 to be anounced on the May 16, 2020. Let’s wait and see.



8K 30 and 4K 120 are more than assumptions. They've been announced by Canon. There's a minimum technical capability in terms of sensor readout speed needed to support such video frame rates which directly translates to EVF performance.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> It seemed like there were more canon trolls on the forum than anything. The canon enthusiasts I know were not defensive about canon at all. They were unhappy with products that were lacking innovation for years. It started slowly but the last 2 years they got really upset about this. They wanted canon to do better so that they could have but a better product. Most of them have several L lenses like me which creates a barrier to switching. I think canon knows that our lens investment creates a barrier to users switching. That can lead to less customer centric behavior because the competition has to be so much better to entice folks to switch platforms.
> 
> this forum just didn’t reflect the mood I sensed anywhere in the real world. My safari group was concerned that canon was falling behind. My scuba groups were already dismissive of canon and their segmentation strategy. I can go on. But on this forum their was this hostility to the fact that canon had a brewing problem. I mostly saw canon trolls who seemed to say that everything canon made was fantastic. The 6d mark 2 was a disappointment and the R on its release was a unpolished recycled part product. The canon trolls will just say it’s all terrific and folks rush out and buy these substandard products at ridiculous prices. Canon built an amazing reputation for innovation a decade ago and that reputation helps fuels sales. But 1-2 years ago was a real low point. I am happy that I didn’t switch as I see canons upcoming products. Their new products show that we’re paying attention to where the market is going. I suspect that they fell behind on some technology and used their amazing brand strength to mitigate defections while they worked on new products.
> 
> ...




The 6D Mark II was a disappointment only to those who judged it solely based on the spec sheet and technical measurements published by sites like DxO and photons to photos that often make mountains out of molehills in terms of minor performance differences. To those who use it, the 6D Mark II has a reputation as a pretty good camera and there is much quality work that has been done with it.


----------



## Michael Clark (May 9, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> If it ain't on a tripod, the left hand is supporting the lens anyway.



Monopod: "(cough, cough)"


----------



## SecureGSM (May 9, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> 8K 30 and 4K 120 are more than assumptions. They've been announced by Canon. There's a minimum technical capability in terms of sensor readout speed needed to support such video frame rates which directly translates to EVF performance.


Ah, not really sorry. You are talking video where an immediate, real time position of your subject is not that extremely important you are following your subject and keep framing regardless of latency level. The issue is:how fast can you get the pixel red and displayed in your EVF? How close is the EVF performance to a latency free optical viewfinder.
Again. All based on assumption. Show me the real thing.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 9, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> It's called the EOS R. It has 30.3 MP and currently sells for around $1,799. It will not disappear from the catalog anytime soon.



No IBIS and other new features putting it near the bottom just above the RP.


----------



## SecureGSM (May 9, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> No IBIS and other new features putting it near the bottom just above the RP.



5d4 sensor was used in R and 6DII sensor was used in RP. these two are light years apart. like chalk and cheese. like 1.5 stop of Dynamic range difference at ISO 100, R RAW files are much more manageable than RP at low ISO. just more latitude in there. FPS numbers are different.


----------



## Architect1776 (May 10, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 5d4 sensor was used in R and 6DII sensor was used in RP. these two are light years apart. like chalk and cheese. like 1.5 stop of Dynamic range difference at ISO 100, R RAW files are much more manageable than RP at low ISO. just more latitude in there. FPS numbers are different.



Like I said, just above the RP.


----------



## martin_p_a (May 11, 2020)

Pixel said:


> We've all been speculating (including myself) that the pro body would be called the R1. Now that I sit and think about it, wouldn't the correct name be EOS 1R?



Well, we have R5 and the rumored R6... logic strongly suggests that the numeral goes after the letter for their mirrorless line, as opposed to before, like it does for DSLR (6D, 5D, 5Ds/sr, 1D, 1DX)


----------



## CDR (May 12, 2020)

My biggest concern as a wildlife photography enthusiast is the lack of a suitable apparent FF option on the roadmap. The APS-C 7D mk 11 is very long in the tooth and the R6 with 20MP will not allow for any / much cropping. Yes, the R5 will be great inclusion to the line but hey how many of us will be able to afford it now with all the video bells and whistles! I would love an economy / down-tuned version of the R5, but would still lack a long and brighter enthusiast zoom like Sony has with the 200-600. Can't see the RF100-500 with F7.1 at the long end being a real option to be honest, ho hum...


----------



## Drcampbellicu (May 12, 2020)

I think we are going to have to spend the cash for the R5 or wait for the later models. RF high end bodies might be like their lenses: fantastic but not cheap.

if the R6 is good enough then I’ll get it to tide me over. But I suspect that I will splurge and get theR5 if they keep the price under 4K. The R5 sounds like it’s clearly targeted towards the higher end with better sealing and a better EVF per the rumors. The better EVF might be a key decider when they actually come out

I’m just excited that we have serious options coming. The original R was not a serious option for me and my 7d mark2 needs replacement.



CDR said:


> My biggest concern as a wildlife photography enthusiast is the lack of a suitable apparent FF option on the roadmap. The APS-C 7D mk 11 is very long in the tooth and the R6 with 20MP will not allow for any / much cropping. Yes, the R5 will be great inclusion to the line but hey how many of us will be able to afford it now with all the video bells and whistles! I would love an economy / down-tuned version of the R5, but would still lack a long and brighter enthusiast zoom like Sony has with the 200-600. Can't see the RF100-500 with F7.1 at the long end being a real option to be honest, ho hum...


----------



## cayenne (May 12, 2020)

CDR said:


> My biggest concern as a wildlife photography enthusiast is the lack of a suitable apparent FF option on the roadmap. The APS-C 7D mk 11 is very long in the tooth and the R6 with 20MP will not allow for any / much cropping. Yes, the R5 will be great inclusion to the line but hey how many of us will be able to afford it now with all the video bells and whistles! I would love an economy / down-tuned version of the R5, but would still lack a long and brighter enthusiast zoom like Sony has with the 200-600. Can't see the RF100-500 with F7.1 at the long end being a real option to be honest, ho hum...



So...what exactly IS your price range?

There's lots of speculation that the price could be in the $3500 range.

Is that too much for you?

I've heard the range of prices many are expecting is $3500-$4000.

So, if you could buy it for $3500....would $500 more knock it off your radar?

From what I can tell the $3500 range, in todays dollars will be somewhat comparable to when the 5D3 or 5D4. came out with....and both of those, had great video as an addition to their stills capabilities.

Did you rail at the prices then?
Did you complain about the video on them then?

Just some food for thought.

And if nothing else let's see what the prices IS when they actually hit the streets.

Photography has never really been a cheap hobby (or profession)....I'd not expect it to be much more so in today's dollars and market either, for what you get.

Just my $0.02,

C


----------



## Drcampbellicu (May 12, 2020)

If the R5 is released at 3500 then I would be pleased and certainly buying
But I wouldn’t be shocked if it’s much more than that. Of course no one knows.




cayenne said:


> So...what exactly IS your price range?
> 
> There's lots of speculation that the price could be in the $3500 range.
> 
> ...


----------



## SteveC (May 12, 2020)

CDR said:


> Yes, the R5 will be great inclusion to the line but hey how many of us will be able to afford it now with all the video bells and whistles!



Again with this???


----------



## navastronia (May 12, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Again with this???



There's so much whining and so little understanding of how much including video in these bodies could ever hinder their stills work or increase the price of the camera.

If having video in the R5/R6 bothers y'all so much, maybe it's time to go back to film, hmm? Keep your precious stills shooting pure? I'm being facetious, but why not? It'll even slow down your workflow so you have more time to compose correctly, shooting images you never crop


----------



## Pixel (May 14, 2020)

martin_p_a said:


> Well, we have R5 and the rumored R6... logic strongly suggests that the numeral goes after the letter for their mirrorless line, as opposed to before, like it does for DSLR (6D, 5D, 5Ds/sr, 1D, 1DX)


But I remember Canon saying their "pro" bodies will always be referred as an "EOS 1" The original pro film body was the EOS 1, the original pro digital body was the EOS 1D. They've yet to make or announce a "pro" mirrorless body whether it be in the R line or the M line because the R5 is clearly not a pro body. 
I'm still betting on EOS 1R.


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## martin_p_a (May 14, 2020)

Pixel said:


> But I remember Canon saying their "pro" bodies will always be referred as an "EOS 1" The original pro film body was the EOS 1, the original pro digital body was the EOS 1D. They've yet to make or announce a "pro" mirrorless body whether it be in the R line or the M line because the R5 is clearly not a pro body.
> I'm still betting on EOS 1R.




Canon also said the R5 was a “5-series” body:



> "It's aimed at that level of the market. This isn't a replacement for the 5D Mark IV or anything like that. But this is a mirrorless 5-series, it's aimed at that segment of the market."
> 
> David Parry
> Canon's Product Marketing Specialist
> Interview here​



and yet the numeral is after the letter unlike the 5D before.

For the R1 (or 1R), as long as they’re using the same numeral, wherever it is placed, it would still refer to the EOS 1, so I don’t think that argument holds a lot of ground.

Marketing-wise, I feel calling it 1R in a sea of R5 and R6 (and whatever else comes) would be confusing to the customer who’d be calling it R1 anyway (or alternatively would be calling the R5 “5R”).

not that the name is of any importance. We’ll see what they go with in due time.


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