# Sony Sensors Coming to Canon DSLRs? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Dec 15, 2014)

```
<p>Canon has long used Sony sensors in a lot of PowerShot cameras over the years, but never has Canon used a Sony sensor in a DSLR.</p>
<p><em>“Canon will use Sony’s new 46mp sensor as the 3rd party launch partner, maybe a little after Sony releases it in a camera of their own. Sony and Canon are partnering on many upcoming products – most recently the G7X being a prime example. Canon will use their own CFA / processing and will make a big point of colour accuracy.”</em></p>
<p>I have received this information a few times over the years, but nothing has never come to fruition, so I’ve never lent much credence to it. I would imagine joint ventures on something as expensive as sensor manufacturing would help lower costs for companies and perhaps customers as well. It’s definitely possible, but I wouldn’t write it in stone yet.  If Canon does the manufacturing of the sensor can they put their own technology into a Sony sensor, such as Dual Pixel AF?</p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7079726133/photokina-2014-canon-interview-mirrorless-in-the-very-near-future" target="_blank">Remember the recent Canon interview with DPR</a>.

</strong><strong>Q:</strong> Canon released two cameras at Photokina – the EOS 7D Mark II and PowerShot G7X. One thing we’ve learned is that the sensor in the G7X is not made by Canon. Does this represent a new philosophy at Canon?

<strong>A:</strong> We select the best sensor, whoever the manufacturer is. That’s our policy.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## jonjt (Dec 15, 2014)

I'll wait until I see what the 5D mkIV offers, before I lend any weight to this.


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## Ryan85 (Dec 15, 2014)

As long as canon continues to make very good cameras like the 1dx, 5d3, 6d,7d2, 70d and great glass I don't care what sensor they use


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## Ryan85 (Dec 15, 2014)

If 46mp happens it will be nice in a way. But those will be huge raw files to work with. Especially with stacking photos. But for landscapes and heaven Photoshop usage it'll be nice


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## ahsanford (Dec 15, 2014)

If Canon did this, DXO would implode from having no one left to pick on.

- A


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## Ryan85 (Dec 15, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> If Canon did this, DXO would implode from having no one left to pick on.
> 
> - A



Lmao good point


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 15, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> If Canon did this, DXO would implode from having no one left to pick on.
> 
> - A


 
They might have to start testing cameras rather than sensors.


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## Marauder (Dec 15, 2014)

I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.


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## jrista (Dec 15, 2014)

Marauder said:


> I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.




+1, totally agree! Canon just needs to actually compete on the larger format sensor front. I really hope they do next year...


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## SPKoko (Dec 15, 2014)

If this rumor is true, the right strategy for Sony would be to agree to sell their best and latest full frame sensors to Canon and Nikon with *the condition that they are not used in full frame mirrorless cameras, only in traditional DSLRs*. That would be a win-win situation for all the companies: Canon and Nikon could use the best sensors currently available in their cameras and Sony would keep the full frame mirrorless cameras market only for them without any competition while at the same time they would take a share of Nikon's and Canon's benefits.

However, it would be a short-term win for Nikon, Canon and the consumers in general, as Sony would get a monopoly in sensors, and we all know that monopolies are never good for anyone...


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## Ryan85 (Dec 15, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon did this, DXO would implode from having no one left to pick on.
> ...



+1


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## Ryan85 (Dec 15, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon did this, DXO would implode from having no one left to pick on.
> ...



+1


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## Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

> I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.



Competition is good for the consumer and will exist as long as consumers choose to support the competition.


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## Tavery (Dec 15, 2014)

I am new to the forum. Besides including Sony sensors, my hope is Canon includes includes Intel's RealSense in their forthcoming DSLR cameras too.


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## hoodlum (Dec 15, 2014)

Marauder said:


> I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.



Samsung is becoming the new competition for Sony sensors.


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## dash2k8 (Dec 15, 2014)

If this were true, I think it's a good thing for us. Canon sensors have been lacking in innovation for a while while Sony sensors have made huge advancements in what's possible. I like it.


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## Don Haines (Dec 15, 2014)

yes.... wait until the tech has matured to the point where the average user can't tell the difference... put lots of research into things like DPAF and bring it to market.... move your sensors to a more modern fabrication line... and throw it all away to let the competition control your destiny...... not bloody likely!


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## wickidwombat (Dec 15, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon did this, DXO would implode from having no one left to pick on.
> ...



i think thats beyond their ability


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## Marsu42 (Dec 15, 2014)

Marauder said:


> I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.



+1, but Canon needs to do something in the high res department. But if they cannot compete themselves, limited competition is better than no competition at all.

I just talked to a well-off landscape photog still shooting mf film scans as he finds they are better than a 20mp dslr for what he does. When I told him about the upcoming Sony ~50mp cameras, he was thrilled and nearly ready to dump all his Canon gear right away. As a wildlife photog, this isn't my world, but there you are.


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## bellorusso (Dec 16, 2014)

well, this will be the end for Canon.


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## Don Haines (Dec 16, 2014)

Marsu42 said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.
> ...



If they wanted too, they could produce one easily. Take a 7D2 sensor design, build the design FF size, and you have a 50Mpixel FF camera that shoots 4FPS and needs 40 shots to fill the frame buffer.

The way I figure it, Canon should have 4 FF cameras in it's lineup....
the 1D series for indestructability and speed
the 5 series aimed at weddings and "do it all"
the 6 series as a low end camera
a new series of high megapixel cameras for landscape.

Let's see what the new year brings.... I predict a massive fleet update.


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## stochasticmotions (Dec 16, 2014)

This I would love to see, doesn't stop canon from continuing to produce other sensors but this might give them a quick way to put out a high resolution camera while they continue to design their own for a next generation camera.


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## steliosk (Dec 16, 2014)

its about time!

Canon is VERY late bringing that tech to DSLRs, better late than never.

According to the competition, the overall Canon system might be great but the sensors are crap.

I was impressed after playing with a G7X which has a Sony sensor
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-powershot-g7-x/9


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## Marauder (Dec 16, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Marauder said:
> ...



That's pretty much the way I see it too. Lots of people are expecting the 5D Mark IV as also being the large MP camera, but I don't think that makes sense. If high MP was a panacea, then the D810 would stand alone in the higher mid-range FF lineup for Nikon--but they've discovered it isn't. It may be great for studio work and for landscapes, but it lacks a more moderate MP camera's "do anything, go anywhere." While the D800/D810 have been successful, they lack the flexibility that is the hallmark of the 5D Mark III. It's why Nikon has had to bring out their D750 as a "5D killer." They've lost a great deal of market share to Canon over the last 2 and a half years due to the 5D Mark III. Although I do think Canon needs to step up to the plate with a high MP camera, I don't think it will be the 5D Mark IV. I expect that to be a moderate increase on the resolution of the 5D Mark III, but with improvements in IQ, fps and buffer. The AF is already stellar, but they will incorporate the new metering from the 7D Mark II as well as a boost to the AF. 

Only time will tell but I expect the high MP camera will be the fabled 3D.


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## sanj (Dec 16, 2014)

From Industry Leaders to Industry follower. 
But whatever works as long as I get to make better photos. 

If this is indeed true, then members like jersta, dolna, dilbert, sella and many such were right.


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## ewg963 (Dec 16, 2014)

Ok I'll wait and see.


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## Joe M (Dec 16, 2014)

A Sony sensor in my Canon and one in those Nikons. So what would separate the two then other than the lens lineup? Well, those endless threads on DR would be lost to the ether. 
I know I'm being trite. I actually see nothing wrong in outsourcing if you get a better component than what you can make yourself be it the sensor or any other part of a product. As long as it's made to your requirements (e.g. I want "x" amount of DR, I want dual pixel and so forth) what's the big deal? Canon would then have to work harder at making the rest of the camera something special (along with lenses) to make people want to buy their stuff as opposed to the competition who has virtually the same sensor (read IQ). 
Let's say company "y" could make a shutter box that could provide 500k actuations. Would you care that company "y" made it for Canon or would you rather your camera stay pure and have only Canon made components? People already buy third party lenses so how is this really much different.
Not that it's likely going to happen anyway. It is a CR1 after all.


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## Don Haines (Dec 16, 2014)

To keep all this in perspective.... for decades Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Fuji, Pentax, Ricoh, and even (GASP!) Kodak cameras all used the same sensor (film) and somehow nobody came to the brilliant conclusion that since they were using Fuji film (or Kodak), they had to use the same brand camera.....


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## Ryan85 (Dec 16, 2014)

Marauder said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



+1 I'm thinking the same thing.


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## RGF (Dec 16, 2014)

jrista said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.
> ...



the sensor is only one part of the camera. The Nikon D800 and Sony A7R use the same sensor, but they are not the same camera. 

If Canon can not add value to a Sony sensor, then perhaps they should stop making cameras.


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## RGF (Dec 16, 2014)

Morgoth said:


> I don´t care if it´s canon or sony sensors as longs as they are the best sensors i can buy.
> 
> unfortunately canon has not the best sensors for some time.
> 
> ...


+1


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## dolina (Dec 16, 2014)

Does not matter where the part is sourced from so long as equals or rivals 2015 full frame bodies from Nikon & Sony.


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## dgatwood (Dec 16, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> I have received this information a few times over the years, but nothing has never come to fruition, so I’ve never lent much credence to it. I would imagine joint ventures on something as expensive as sensor manufacturing would help lower costs for companies and perhaps customers as well. It’s definitely possible, but I wouldn’t write it in stone yet. If Canon does the manufacturing of the sensor can they put their own technology into a Sony sensor, such as Dual Pixel AF?



That would truly be a killer combination. It would also mean that Canon would get money from every Sony sensor sold, including to Nikon et al, so it isn't entirely out of the question.


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## Monchoon (Dec 16, 2014)

Since Sony is selling and dissolving some (most) of their operations, plus posting a $2+ billion loss but obviously not their insurance in Japan. Could it be a possibility that Canon could acquire the Sony Sensor operation facility; Sony Sensors coming to Canon.


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## David Hull (Dec 16, 2014)

Marauder said:


> I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.


There are plenty of good sensor manufacturers out there -- even if Canon quit completely Sony would have plenty of good competition. I think that the real issue may be that Canon's architectural approach is no longer cost competitive with the fully integrated solutions. It may be that it doesn't scale well past 25 MP or so. Right now they are using an additional three chips in the 7DII that Sony doesn't have (two high speed Quad ADC chips and an FPGA to tie it all together). That stuff takes up space and costs money and battery power. 

That all assumes that there is some fact to this rumor.


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## Eldar (Dec 16, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> To keep all this in perspective.... for decades Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Fuji, Pentax, Ricoh, and even (GASP!) Kodak cameras all used the same sensor (film) and somehow nobody came to the brilliant conclusion that since they were using Fuji film (or Kodak), they had to use the same brand camera.....


Good point! 

As we have argued many times, a complete camera solution inlcudes build quality, HMI, AF system, processing quality and capacity, modes and functions and the available lens line up. In my view Canon is ahead on just about everything, except the sensor. So I would clearly welcome a 46MP/14stop DR Sony sensor in the next Canon camera.

If I got such a camera, with 1DX build quality and functionality, I would not need another camera until it broke and needed replacement (probably after I'm gone). But to trust Sony with a near monoply on sensors is a scary thought.


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## noms78 (Dec 16, 2014)

Here is how I see the 2015 lineup:

3d: 46mp sony sensor, 4k video? $4000+?
5d4: 22mp+ canon sensor? 7D2 autofocus and video? $3000-4000?
6d2: 22mp+ canon sensor?, multiple cross type AF and better center point? $2000+?


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## RGF (Dec 16, 2014)

noms78 said:


> Here is how I see the 2015 lineup:
> 
> 3d: 46mp sony sensor, 4k video? $4000+?
> 5d4: 22mp+ canon sensor? 7D2 autofocus and video? $3000-4000?
> 6d2: 22mp+ canon sensor?, multiple cross type AF and better center point? $2000+?



Possibly but IMO the 5D4 will move up to 28-30 MP and the 6D2 (in 2016) will be around 25-6 MP.


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## Bennymiata (Dec 16, 2014)

To be frank, I just want a great camera for what I normally do, and I would like more dr etc with my 5D3, and if their next model uses a Sony sensor, so what?

As long as the camera is good to use, makes great images and I can use my L lenses on it, I'll buy it, when I'm ready for a change.

Even IF Sony goes bust, I'm sure that Canon or someone else will buy the sensor division and continue supply.
Buying some sensors from Sony could be a real advantage (Sony dr etc with Canon colours, lenses and ergonomics) and give Canon some breathing room to develop the next big thing in sensors.


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## JohanCruyff (Dec 16, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> I would imagine joint ventures on something as expensive as sensor manufacturing would help lower costs for companies and perhaps customers as well. It’s definitely possible, but I wouldn’t write it in stone yet. If Canon does the manufacturing of the sensor can they put their own technology into a Sony sensor, such as Dual Pixel AF?


 
In other industries (cars etc.) it is frequent to see exchanges of know-how. 
Maybe it could be possible for Canon to supply DPAF technology and for Sony to supply DR in the same sensor.  


BTW, 46 Mpx is exactly what I need to replace my 5d classic: shooting in S-RAW, I expect to get excellent noise-free 11.5 Mpx pictures. ;D


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## dufflover (Dec 16, 2014)

Personally I don't think it will happen. They haven't cared about competing sensors for ages, I don't think they are suddenly going to now. Even though it would be nice sign anyway for them to improve on the sensor areas people are really wanting improved to match the competition.


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## Ryan85 (Dec 16, 2014)

Bennymiata said:


> To be frank, I just want a great camera for what I normally do, and I would like more dr etc with my 5D3, and if their next model uses a Sony sensor, so what?
> 
> As long as the camera is good to use, makes great images and I can use my L lenses on it, I'll buy it, when I'm ready for a change.
> 
> ...



+1


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## emko (Dec 16, 2014)

no just no i rather Canon make their own Sony equivalent sensor and then Sony will have to make something better and so on competition will make a better sensor then even what Sony has now. I can not see why Canon one of the companies with the most patents can't come up with something better then their current sensors, only thing i can think of is the cost of development/production. 

Would i buy a 5D4 with a Sony sensor? hell yea i don't give a crap about brands, product has to be good that's all that matters.


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## ewg963 (Dec 16, 2014)

emko said:


> no just no i rather Canon make their own Sony equivalent sensor and then Sony will have to make something better and so on competition will make a better sensor then even what Sony has now. I can not see why Canon one of the companies with the most patents can't come up with something better then their current sensors, only thing i can think of is the cost of development/production.
> 
> Would i buy a 5D4 with a Sony sensor? hell yea i don't give a crap about brands, product has to be good that's all that matters.


+1


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## Diko (Dec 16, 2014)

I wonder why do from time to time *CR* begins to make storms out of nothing. I presume when the visitors stats begin to go down he brings an old topic just for the sake of a few tech geeks to comment around and say old crap in a new way.

*1/* 


jrista said:


> Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.
> ...


I do agree as well. However they would need "a-pair-of-good-old-MF-L-lenses". And we have seen 0 patents so far.

*2/ *


thetechhimself said:


> Check this guy out...
> http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/?lang=en&Itemid=815
> 
> 2 Years old article the outlines what we see today (Sony making sensors for Nikon, and now some of Canon) and points to tomorrow.
> ...



Well, while true so far we know Canon IS using old-school 0.5 they are also employing new tech (although a later than others, but definitely not bad) like DualPixel. 

_*And I wonder how do you make a home-grown in-house tech go out to you competitors to produce it? 
Or you just don't - and that makes you look like everybody else.*_

*So in conclusion:* Am I getting this wrong? Or *CR* Webmaster is just making non-sense?



Canon Rumors said:


> I have received this information a few times over the years, but nothing has never come to fruition, so _*I’ve never lent much credence to it*_... It’s definitely possible, but _*I wouldn’t write it in stone yet*_.


 _Why bother then writing now_?

I leave it to you to judge on your own.


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## jasny (Dec 16, 2014)

One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.
So probably Canon will manufacture most of their FF bodies with own, home-manufactured sensors and use only Sony sensor for a special high quality (DR, high resolution) body. That makes a lot of sense because high resolution Dual Pixel FF sensor (being effectively 2 x 46 MPix sensor) would generate enormous stream of data that would need processing not only for stills but also video (scaling, denoising etc.) and AF (dual pixel, CDAF).


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## noms78 (Dec 16, 2014)

jasny said:


> One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.
> So probably Canon will manufacture most of their FF bodies with own, home-manufactured sensors and use only Sony sensor for a special high quality (DR, high resolution) body. That makes a lot of sense because high resolution Dual Pixel FF sensor (being effectively 2 x 46 MPix sensor) would generate enormous stream of data that would need processing not only for stills but also video (scaling, denoising etc.) and AF (dual pixel, CDAF).



+1

If this camera turns out to be the 3D I'm assuming it will cost more than the 5D4, which will hopefully be less than $3500. If 5D4 was $4000+ I don't think it would sell that well?


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## Keith_Reeder (Dec 16, 2014)

bellorusso said:


> well, this will be the end for Canon.



Sorry - what asinine fairy story is this a quote from?


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## dgatwood (Dec 16, 2014)

dilbert said:


> jasny said:
> 
> 
> > One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.
> ...



They wouldn't even have to do that. I don't think there's anything amazingly complex about dual-pixel from a design and fabrication point of view. I'm pretty sure Sony would already be selling chips with DPAF capabilities if they didn't have to work around Canon's patents.


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## ahsanford (Dec 16, 2014)

Diko said:


> I wonder why do from time to time *CR* begins to make storms out of nothing. I presume when the visitors stats begin to go down he brings an old topic just for the sake of a few tech geeks to comment around and say old crap in a new way.



Consider: This website is not called Canon _News_. 

- A


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## Famateur (Dec 16, 2014)

LOL...I wrote these replies yesterday afternoon but forgot to submit. Oops! Oh well...

------------------------------------



dash2k8 said:


> If this were true, I think it's a good thing for us. Canon sensors have been lacking in innovation for a while while Sony sensors have made huge advancements in what's possible. I like it.



"You keep using that word inconceivable innovation. I do not think it means what you think it means." 

If you mean _low ISO_ dynamic range, huge megapixel counts or a radical new sensor design, okay. In my book, though, DPAF is clearly in the "innovation" category.



Don Haines said:


> yes.... wait until the tech has matured to the point where the average user can't tell the difference... put lots of research into things like DPAF and bring it to market.... move your sensors to a more modern fabrication line... and throw it all away to let the competition control your destiny...... not bloody likely!



I tend to agree.

I personally hope Canon keeps its high-end sensor production in-house. If the rumor somehow is true, and Canon uses some Sony sensors in DSLRs, I highly doubt Canon would cease development of its own DSLR sensor technology. Sony is not exactly the most solvent company out there. I suspect that Canon would only use a Sony sensor A) As an interim measure while refining development/production of a Canon-made equivalent/superior sensor, or B) Because Canon is fully prepared to acquire Sony's sensor division.

On the bright side, maybe Canon could solve the greenish color cast of the Nikon/Sony sensors.


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## canonvoir (Dec 16, 2014)

Does Canon need better sensors? Yes. 

When did Canon Cameras center totally around the sensor alone? The camera is more than the sensor and Canon's package around that sensor is top notch. The 1DX is still the best sports camera made. The 5Diii is still a great camera. It is all the technologies surrounding the sensor that make a Canon camera a Canon. 

Canon using a Sony sensor will not change this fact. Look at Nikon as they have take the a7r sensor and put a better package around it. 

Who cares! Just give me a better sensor wrapped in a Canon package. 2015 will determine my next major camera purchase to add to my list. Right now, my money is on an a7rii.


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## Lawliet (Dec 16, 2014)

jasny said:


> One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.



Indeed - compared to http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2014-12-08 it would be a step or two backwards.


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## DWM (Dec 16, 2014)

Diko said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > I have received this information a few times over the years, but nothing has never come to fruition, so _*I’ve never lent much credence to it*_... It’s definitely possible, but _*I wouldn’t write it in stone yet*_.
> ...


I think you missed the point of this forum. It is called rumors for a reason. Wouldn't be much talk here if it only reported things written in stone. I think its interesting to hear peoples ideas and just maybe from time to time some Canon people will visit to see what we want them to improve.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Dec 16, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > If Canon did this, DXO would implode from having no one left to pick on.
> ...



Why? They are not a general review site, but focus on imaging and sensors.


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## jrista (Dec 16, 2014)

Diko said:


> I wonder why do from time to time *CR* begins to make storms out of nothing. I presume when the visitors stats begin to go down he brings an old topic just for the sake of a few tech geeks to comment around and say old crap in a new way.
> 
> *1/*
> 
> ...




I don't mean medium format sensors. Just larger sensors. APS-C and FF are larger, by quite a margin, than the ultra high volume market, which uses sensors a fraction the size of a fingernail most of the time. People don't realize how much larger APS-C and FF sensor are...many times larger. I consider that "larger format". Medium format is a whole different game, and that is not what I'm referring to.


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## dgatwood (Dec 16, 2014)

Famateur said:


> "You keep using that word inconceivable innovation. I do not think it means what you think it means."
> 
> If you mean _low ISO_ dynamic range, huge megapixel counts or a radical new sensor design, okay. In my book, though, DPAF is clearly in the "innovation" category.



It's certainly an interesting approach, but in my mind, innovation is more than just doing something in a new way. Innovation is defined by the "aha" moment where the advantages to the new approach are immediately so obvious that you can't imagine having done it the old way.

The thing is, Fuji showed the first compact camera with on-die phase detection AF back in 2010. Canon has been playing catch-up ever since. Yes, DPAF has an advantage over dedicated focus pixels in that you don't lose the light that would otherwise fall on half of certain pixels, though that difference will matter less and less as resolution increases—but DPAF still feels more like a way to work around Fuji's on-sensor phase detection patents while still achieving the same benefits, rather than true innovation.

If Canon wants folks like me to see them as still innovating in the area of sensors, they should:


Start with a backside illumination design.
Etch both sides of the sensor, with vias for every pixel.
Put per-pixel buffers on the reverse side of the sensor die, thus giving you a true global shutter.
Put a sizable heat sink on the reverse side of the sensor to dissipate the heat from the back-side buffers, thus reducing thermal noise.
Use one or more on-die ADC circuits for maximum accuracy and minimum noise.
Take advantage of the global shutter to *eliminate* dynamic range limitations and remove the need for setting ISO values entirely.

That last one is the jaw dropper. The benefits of a global shutter for video are obvious. The benefits for stills are even bigger, though, and I don't think anybody is really taking advantage of that yet, which seems bizarre to me.

The entire reason image sensors have limited dynamic range is twofold: because the ADC can provide only a certain number of bits of precision, and because when the full-well capacity of a pixel is exceeded, that pixel cannot hold any more photons. However, if you can get the read noise levels low enough, you can just sample the pixels several times per exposure, and sum the results in a wider register. You can then make clever use of Huffman coding or run-length encoding to minimize the impact of all those extra zeroes, and you'll be able to accurately reproduce everything from a single photon all the way up to the brightest light.

*That* would be innovation. Real innovation changes things in ways that are jaw-dropping and earth-shattering. Using DPAF to do automatic AFMA might do that, and using DPAF to correct the slightly-off phase detect focusing results after the mirror goes up might do that, but DPAF by itself doesn't do that, IMO. DPAF is clever, but it is far from pushing the limits of technology.

Just my $0.02.


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## Diko (Dec 16, 2014)

jasny said:


> One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.
> So probably Canon will manufacture most of their FF bodies with own, home-manufactured sensors and use only Sony sensor for a special high quality (DR, high resolution) body. That makes a lot of sense because high resolution Dual Pixel FF sensor (being effectively 2 x 46 MPix sensor) would generate enormous stream of data that would need processing not only for stills but also video (scaling, denoising etc.) and AF (dual pixel, CDAF).


.... You said it all by yourself:


> ... would generate enormous stream of data that would need processing not only for stills but also video...


 That means that they would have to use DIGIC CPUs sensors with DPAF (CANON sensor tech). That means they can't be SONY.




dgatwood said:


> They wouldn't even have to do that. I don't think there's anything amazingly complex about dual-pixel from a design and fabrication point of view. I'm pretty sure Sony would already be selling chips with DPAF capabilities if they didn't have to work around Canon's patents.


 +1



DWM said:


> I think you missed the point of this forum. It is called rumors for a reason. Wouldn't be much talk here if it only reported things written in stone. I think its interesting to hear peoples ideas and just maybe from time to time some Canon people will visit to see what we want them to improve.


No - I did not. Yes it is NOT a stone. Quite correct. And yet this _*rumor*_ is old as *Canon MF*. I wonder when will be next *speculation* about the old *rumor* about *it* ;-)

As for Canon reading what is going on here on this forum... You must have been reading some of my previous post here. ;-)


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## ariliquin (Dec 17, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> If Canon did this, DXO would implode from having no one left to pick on.
> 
> - A



If the shoe fits....


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## ariliquin (Dec 17, 2014)

Is this the same sensor reported here? Can we expect it will be three color sensing at each cell?: http://www.canonwatch.com/canons-upcoming-multi-layer-sensor-made-sony/


2015 could be the year of improved IQ not just MP.


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## Lawliet (Dec 17, 2014)

Diko said:


> That means that they would have to use DIGIC CPUs sensors with DPAF (CANON sensor tech). That means they can't be SONY.



Considering that phase detect on the imaging sensor is something just about every manufacturer does that's quite a bold statement.


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## dolina (Dec 17, 2014)

Having read the decline of sales of p&s and SLRs leads me to believe that cost is driving Canon, Nikon, Hassleblad and other companies to buy their sensors from Sony.

Think of it in the same way PCs in the 70s used to have multiple CPU manufacturers and now it is essentially Intel and to some extent AMD.

If this means Canon will get the technological advantage enjoyed by Sony and Nikon then good for us.


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## Famateur (Dec 17, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > "You keep using that word inconceivable innovation. I do not think it means what you think it means."
> ...



Well reasoned and compelling argument. By that definition, I'd have to agree.


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## x-vision (Dec 17, 2014)

As others, I also think that it would be great if Canon starts using Sony sensors.
At the same time, though, I have a hard time believing that it will happen.

It's maybe possible that only a single DSLR model could use a high-megapixel Sony sensor (a new 1Ds model?).
I don't see them doing an en-mass switch to Sony, though. 

According to some industry estimates, Canon's sensor business is a billion dollar business. 
Corporations just don't walk away from a business like that.


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## justaCanonuser (Dec 17, 2014)

Marauder said:


> I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.



+1 I agree, too. 

The current situation in the sensor market looks like a classic one in electronics industry: Canon has the oldest sensor production line compared with Sony and Samsung with which they leaded the pack for many years but now lost leadership. Given the current massive decline in the camera sales market (see e.g. CIPA 1933-2014 sales graph in http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html) it becomes clear why Canon currently holds back with a massive and risky investment in a completely new production line. I expect them to try to survive with their current 5 micrometer technology for bigger sensors as long as they can sell enough cameras. 

Hopefully they will keep their own sensor production and return in a few years with a then leading technology. Otherwise, on the long run, we customers will face Sony turning into a sort of Intel of sensor production, maybe Samsung as the only big competitor (the new APS sensor of the NX1 seems to be extremely good). Like in the computer market, this would slow down technological progress until something revolutionary happens: new devices such as smartphone and tablets dethrone Intel because they ignored this new market too long.


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## ahsanford (Dec 17, 2014)

I don't think Canon will use Sony sensors in pro/flagship level bodies, I just don't. Proprietary tech, pride, 'the Canon Premium', etc. all tip the scales very heavily away from bringing in Sony to assist. In _lesser_ trimlines, the large sensor compacts, possibly even a Rebel -- I think Sony involvement could occur. I know Rebels are cash cows, but Canon's pride with Rebels is far, far less.

But, in using an analogy to PCs, Apple has had to wrestle with similar tradeoffs. Switching to Intel chips was considered a massive 'pride concession' at the time, but they felt it was necessary. But it's not the same as, say, seeing Apple give up on their OS and using Windows exclusively. For a thousand reasons, Apple didn't do that, but it flags a point that's applicable here: certain aspects of the product are essential to defining their company's identity, essential to differentiation, and essential to getting the sales price they want. I would argue that sensors are near the top of that list.

- A


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## Marsu42 (Dec 17, 2014)

ahsanford said:


> Proprietary tech, pride, 'the Canon Premium', etc. all tip the scales very heavily away from bringing in Sony to assist.



Fyi: This isn't about pride, it's about making money. So on the one hand, Canon would get a dent in the "tech leader" department, but wouldn't loose a whole market segment. And if Canon's own high mp sensors would be clearly inferior to Sony, the loss of reputation would be even larger.

I find the Apple switching from PowerPC to Intel quite valid - they have their image and MacOS, Canon has their lenses, service, and usability that will keep users from jumping ship just because the sensor is the same.


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## Johnierebel (Dec 18, 2014)

Hey all. As mush as I would love Canon to use the alleged Sony 46MP sensor, it doesn't make sense for Sony to
share if they are going after the FF market. If they made a deal with Canon ( & Nikon ) that only they can make mirror less cameras with this sensor, that might work, all though that might also be considered collusion which is illegal in some countries.


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## IglooEater (Dec 26, 2014)

Maybe I'm just naive, but who makes RED's sensors, and why doesn't Canon go to them over Sony? The RED Dragon at roughly APS-H size beat out the full-frame Nikon d-810, according to ::cough:: dxomark. Anyone know, does Sony make RED's sensors too?


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## Lawliet (Dec 26, 2014)

IglooEater said:


> Maybe I'm just naive, but who makes RED's sensors, and why doesn't Canon go to them over Sony?


Who doesn't really matter - provide proper design specs and every major foundry can make the sensor.
Making sure that the device your blueprint describes actually behaves the way you want is one part of the challenge. The other would involve not infringing anyone's patents, at least not without having enough bargaining chips to deal with that.

And then there is the "not invented here"-syndrome that makes sticking to the highly serial readout and old lines appealing.


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## Diko (Jan 29, 2015)

Lawliet said:


> Diko said:
> 
> 
> > That means that they would have to use DIGIC CPUs sensors with DPAF (CANON sensor tech). That means they can't be SONY.
> ...


 Phase detect - yes. DualPixel Auto Focus however as concept has been made by ONLY one vendor of 4/3 camera.... I believe it was Fujitsu... not sure about the name.



IglooEater said:


> Maybe I'm just naive, but who makes RED's sensors, and why doesn't Canon go to them over Sony? The RED Dragon at roughly APS-H size beat out the full-frame Nikon d-810, according to ::cough:: dxomark. Anyone know, does Sony make RED's sensors too?



The vendor is *CMOSIS* ;-)


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## Lawliet (Jan 29, 2015)

Diko said:


> Phase detect - yes. DualPixel Auto Focus however as concept has been made by ONLY one vendor of 4/3 camera.... I believe it was Fujitsu... not sure about the name.



Considering that DualPixel as such has mainly drawbacks (no cross type AF, can't be read fast enough with the current architecture) I'd go rather for the effect then the specific implementation.


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