# right time to turn pro...?



## LewisShermer (Jun 13, 2012)

I've watched these forums for a while now although I don't ever post...

I was just wondering how everyone felt about turning pro, how it went and how it's turning out? I'm very much aware of the cons with regard to quitting a stable day job and having a guaranteed income every month with which to pay the bills but I'm also sick to death of it and the mundanity of it all.

Here's my background

18 - never touched a camera above a point and shoot 35mm but get a job as a studio assistant. worked with 5x4 cambo's and sinars & medium format hasselblads and mamiyas shooting mainly commercial product

23 - went to uni, got a degree in graphics. photography as a minor hobby. very minor.

26 - graduate, got a job as a designer but started a photography department, built it up and shoot all our product for advertising, net and brochure. mainly watches and jewellery. with the company dime i bought bowens flash heads, a canon 1Ds 3 and all the kit I wanted. cost about £8000 to set up

a couple of years ago a friend asked me if i could shoot her wedding. I'd never done it before or in fact owned a decent camera of my own so I said yes. obviously. so I went and bought a 500D and a jessops flash which was all i could afford at the time for about £800. It was a little different than shooting with the 1Ds but I got over it.

I've been doing quite a few weddings since, bought a 60D, a 7D, loads of lenses (no L's) and invested in a set up so i can shoot studio standard product shots in my kitchen (i've never charged for any work I've done for people up until I shot a rather large job for a big company last week)

my wedding shot's are ok, obviously would be better if I owned a 5Dii
my product shots are above average, obviously would better if i owned a 1Ds iii (or upcoming X)
I have a little experience with models but not much past shooting of friends that are "alt. models"

here's a bit of my portfolio : www.lewismaxwell.carbonmade.com

I'd like to actually have a conversation with someone with the experience of jacking it all in to live the proverbial dream as I sit here with my notice written out but not the guts to give it in and go it alone

help?

x


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 13, 2012)

Build a business plan and that will help you decide. It will require a bit of work, but you will come out of it understanding what to expect out of a business. 

you obviously have artistic talent and photography talent and knowledge, but running a business requires a entirely different set of skills. Taking care of the books, billings, collections, advertising, studio rentals, depreciation of equipment and dealing with taxes. Hiring a good accountant is highly beneficial, but you can do most of the work yourself. I use Quickbooks for my small business, and just go to the accountant once a year. Its a big learning experience though.


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## JerryKnight (Jun 13, 2012)

I suggest you find a local photographer or two whose work you admire, and second shoot for them as much as you can. There is so much you can learn from them, just seeing them work. If you can find mentors to teach you and critique your work, even better.


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## LewisShermer (Jun 13, 2012)

yeah, that's the scary part after worrying if I'm actually a good enough photographer, earning the money to actually pay the bills each month. invoicing, taxes, advertising... eeek.

I'll actually get in touch with some locals tonight, see if they reply. there's one I emailed about this kind of stuff previously and he just ignores me. i guess a lot of photographers don't want to give away their secrets.

I live in birmingham, It's pretty central and has a great creative sector, hopefully I can latch on to things like that. I'll need business cards for cocktail parties and a commercial website... it's all bloody money though, and I have none!


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## awinphoto (Jun 13, 2012)

Living the dream isn't easy... You have to make sure you are making enough doing photography to supplement all your income... In an era where the fine line of professional and amateur is getting thinner and thinner... Lower end cameras are getting so good and frankly it is so easy to learn, Make sure you get your portfolio as good as you can, find out what passions you have with photography... is it portraits, weddings, both, commercial, cars, advertising, product, etc... Find out what makes you unique from any other photographer and what you can bring to the table that someone would hire you over 10 other photographers placing Craigslist ads offering their services for a song and a dance. Get the basics of your business affairs in order such as equipment, printing services, pricing, operations, finances/accounting, market plan... Remember this is a business, not a hobby, and without getting that stuff figured out before hand, it will help you not become a non-profit. Lastly market market market and dont give up. It's easy to get discouraged but if you got a good market plan and keep at it, even if it feels like your getting nowhere, it will work out in the end. There's a lot of expense when dealing with a business so save up while you can. 

As far as when is a right time, a big photographer once said to keep your day job as long as it doesn't kill you. Keep it until it gets to the point you have so much photography work and it feels like either job will start to suffer if you dont drop your day job. Then is a good time to jump ship because it means you have lots of repeat work coming in, and that is what is needed to survive.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 13, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> Living the dream isn't easy... You have to make sure you are making enough doing photography to supplement all your income... In an era where the fine line of professional and amateur is getting thinner and thinner... Lower end cameras are getting so good and frankly it is so easy to learn, Make sure you get your portfolio as good as you can, find out what passions you have with photography... is it portraits, weddings, both, commercial, cars, advertising, product, etc... Find out what makes you unique from any other photographer and what you can bring to the table that someone would hire you over 10 other photographers placing Craigslist ads offering their services for a song and a dance. Get the basics of your business affairs in order such as equipment, printing services, pricing, operations, finances/accounting, market plan... Remember this is a business, not a hobby, and without getting that stuff figured out before hand, it will help you not become a non-profit. Lastly market market market and dont give up. It's easy to get discouraged but if you got a good market plan and keep at it, even if it feels like your getting nowhere, it will work out in the end. There's a lot of expense when dealing with a business so save up while you can.
> 
> As far as when is a right time, a big photographer once said to keep your day job as long as it doesn't kill you. Keep it until it gets to the point you have so much photography work and it feels like either job will start to suffer if you dont drop your day job. Then is a good time to jump ship because it means you have lots of repeat work coming in, and that is what is needed to survive.


 
Excellent advice +1


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## Jettatore (Jun 13, 2012)

LewisShermer or anyone else responding:

Nice post, would you mind posting (without lying) what your various net income levels were and currently are at all those various stages along with your approximate hours of work per week, with any special notes to potential absurd weeks/months that might have popped up (or just an exact average)/cost of your design schooling, etc.. I'd say as far as the title alone goes, the best time to turn pro was 20 years ago or likely way before that with diminishing returns forward, with the exception of the smallest few, which exist in almost any example and also in most any example can't mathematically be the average success rate and specifically have to be the minority of said example. The basic carrot on a stick formula which plagues all modern life. By the way, don't take me too seriously, I'm probably not that many steps removed from suicide and I certainly wouldn't want my jaded life perspective to disrupt you or anyone else's success. Still you brought up the thread and seem to be pretty open so if you, or anyone else responding, could go the extra mile with full honestly it would be profoundly appreciated.


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## JerryKnight (Jun 13, 2012)

LewisShermer said:


> yeah, that's the scary part after worrying if I'm actually a good enough photographer, earning the money to actually pay the bills each month. invoicing, taxes, advertising... eeek.
> 
> I'll actually get in touch with some locals tonight, see if they reply. there's one I emailed about this kind of stuff previously and he just ignores me. i guess a lot of photographers don't want to give away their secrets.
> 
> I live in birmingham, It's pretty central and has a great creative sector, hopefully I can latch on to things like that. I'll need business cards for cocktail parties and a commercial website... it's all bloody money though, and I have none!



It's unfortunate that many photographers consider their craft to be exclusive. The best way for it to work is for photographers to build a referral network. When one photographer is already booked or is not in a client's price range, they'll refer the client to other local photographers. If you can build relationships like that with photographers, they'll likely be happy to send you clients. 

There are communities of photographers out there that believe that helping each other and trading knowledge raises the quality of the entire profession, making everyone's business and artistry better. If you can find these photographers in your area, I think it will help you a lot. Don't worry too much about the ones who seem afraid to teach you anything, for fear that you'll steal some of their business. 

EDIT: The other part of the referral network is with other vendors. Make extra effort to help out florists, caterers, decorators, etc. with photos from your shoots, and it's possible they will send clients your way.


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## awinphoto (Jun 13, 2012)

Jettatore said:


> LewisShermer or anyone else responding:
> 
> Nice post, would you mind posting (without lying) what your various net income levels were and currently are at all those various stages along with your approximate hours of work per week, with any special notes to potential absurd weeks/months that might have popped up (or just an exact average)/cost of your design schooling, etc.. I'd say as far as the title alone goes, the best time to turn pro was 20 years ago or likely way before that with diminishing returns forward, with the exception of the smallest few, which exist in almost any example and also in most any example can't mathematically be the average success rate and specifically have to be the minority of said example. The basic carrot on a stick formula which plagues all modern life. By the way, don't take me too seriously, I'm probably not that many steps removed from suicide and I certainly wouldn't want my jaded life perspective to disrupt you or anyone else's success. Still you brought up the thread and seem to be pretty open so if you, or anyone else responding, could go the extra mile with full honestly it would be profoundly appreciated.



Jettatore, first let me say that I do sincerely hope you weren't serious with the suicide comment and if you weren't, that isn't the way to go about things. Income will vary depending on factors such as location, market demand and cost of living. When I first started going pro, I was maybe making around around 25k mark yearly... But for my location it allowed for relationships, house rental, car, modest equipment, etc... Landed a contract to shoot product photography on a regular and recurring situation... Got some other contracts here and there in which I could literally make as much as i'm willing to work, pay for any one job isn't spectacular, but basically is easy (for me) and easy to slam through and make money. Portraits aren't really my thing, i'm more into the commercial, architecture, advertising route... I think last year photography alone I made around 60k, give or take... that's working 5-6 days a week... This year, so far, i'm on pace to do even better assuming work level remains high. My product photography is stable, however with the bad economy, I really haven't been able to raise rates worth anything for the last 2-3 years. My other side contracts haven't had raises in rates in a really long time, but with the rise in gas, i tend to pass that onto my clients more. For where I live, we aren't rich by any means and struggle at times, but we are homeowners, reinvesting within our means for new gear when we can reasonably afford to do so and based on need, so very few splurges. I know photogs in New York and San Fran working 9-10 hour days and have little to no life but are making double i'm making if not more. With the economy and technology getting better, we have gone through the perfect storm as professional photographers... People and in my case, companies not spending in marketing or advertising, no splurge assignments, when we get hired, we are getting base prices with little frills. On top of that, just about anyone getting a costco special rebel camera can go out and get jobs at a fraction of our rates and do it because they think it's cool. It's just a big change in culture for photography and something we have to weather and get better to survive.


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## Jettatore (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks for the forthcoming input. Greatly appreciated. And no, not serious, just a disclaimer not to swallow any dripping cynicism without having salt handy. If you are already well, well on your way to being a pro, like the original poster seems to be, and you are still willing ready and able and want to become a pro, then don't let anyone's attitude, especially not my jaded attitude, alter your coarse. Realistically though, the info you just posted is exactly the kind of info than 90% or better of all wannabee pro's should swallow whole while weighing their options between photography, plumbing and underwater welding. It's also the kind of info that for profit colleges and self-serving websites tend to avoid or simply lie about in this and or similar industries, so it's value should be high, in particular to those who haven't gone as far already as the original poster has. Personally, I have zero interest in turning photography on it's own into any sort of profession. I gave the idea of wedding photography a whirl around my head a few times, went along as 2nd shooter to several weddings with a popular local (but mediocre) wedding photographer, but overall I hate the idea (I don't even like the idea of marriage itself) and that's without knowing any and all the various subtle annoyances of that business that one who hasn't done it first hand for years must surely be overlooking.

I think, much like you described about collaborating, if active Pro's and up and comers want to help desaturate their industry, they should be extremely forthcoming and open about how not so rosey it can quite more often than not be. If someone who wants to do photography as a profession rather than as a hobby, still wants to go forward after wading through honest insights, then more power to them. What I find however, in most industry, is a bunch of liars right at the gate, usually trying to sell private tuition, some tool, or some training system, or are themselves some sort of flop just making themselves feel better and completely dodging the reality of said industries or if they aren't total flops they just as often ignore their own stories factors of wild luck that helped them along the way while throwing out utter bs motivational slogans about perseverance and hard work and payoffs and what you have to look forward to after x milestone... Anyways, that was my long way of saying thank you, for being honest.


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## wickidwombat (Jun 14, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> As far as when is a right time, a big photographer once said to keep your day job as long as it doesn't kill you. Keep it until it gets to the point you have so much photography work and it feels like either job will start to suffer if you dont drop your day job. Then is a good time to jump ship because it means you have lots of repeat work coming in, and that is what is needed to survive.



IMO this is the best advice

The stress that worrying too much about money can have will cripple creativity and add alot of pressure so phase it in


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## sb (Jun 14, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> As far as when is a right time, a big photographer once said to keep your day job as long as it doesn't kill you.



There's actually more truth to this than you can even imagine. Let me challenge your thinking a little bit just for the sake of having a complete picture:

Just like yourself, a few years ago, I too was hating my day job and was eagerly awaiting the moment when I could go full time. However as I started getting more and more booked, I slowly realized that I didn't really want to do photography full time at all. Instead I found a better day job. 

To make the same income that I make now, I would literally have to break my back shooting weddings. And even then I probably wouldn't get there. And I don't want to break my back. I want to casually shoot 10-15 weddings per season and nicely supplement my income so that I can really enjoy life. At the same time I have the benefit of 2 independent revenue streams so should I lose my job, I will at least have something to fall back on. 

But it's not just about income. I made a disturbing realization that the more I was shooting for money, the more my hobby was dying. It has now been YEARS since I went out to take some pictures just for fun. It's not that I don't have time to do it - I just don't feel like it if you can believe that. And that thought saddens me, because I loved my hobby.

I'm actually in the process of writing a book about my experience and how to do things right on the first try (I don't know whether I'll try to publish it or make it available in pieces online via blog posts). It will contain all sorts of knowledge about marketing, pricing, style etc etc, but the main point will be this:

Don't just quit your job and chase some elusive dream, because you may find just as I did, that "the dream" is not necessarily a constant. Things change, and your feelings will too. Do it gradually, in a risk-free way, and at least buying gear will never be an issue because you'll have 2 salaries to pay for it, not to mention that you won't worry about paying bills.

And lastly ask yourself this - are you really at a point where your full time job is handicapping your business? If your answer is "no", you really can't justify quitting. Weddings are weekend work and there are a LOT of weekends in a year.

Cheers


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## unfocused (Jun 14, 2012)

All good advice. 

Here is something I would add: learn something about business before jumping in. In the U.S. there are extensive support networks for small business. I imagine it is the same in the UK. I'm talking about community colleges that offer free seminars in how to start a business, government agencies that also offer advice and training and what are often called Small Business Development Centers here in the U.S. Make an appointment to talk to a banker that specializes in small business. 

In other words, before starting anything, research all the business aspects. Develop a formal business plan. Most small businesses fail. Yes. That is just a fact. They fail not because the owners are not talented in their profession, but because they didn't have a solid business plan to begin with.

Oh, and one more thing: be flexible. I don't know how many small business people I have met over the years who start a business thinking they are going to focus on one area and then find, six months or so into it, that customers want something else entirely. Darwinism is alive and well in the business world. All businesses either evolve or die. Be prepared for that.


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## unfocused (Jun 14, 2012)

sb said:


> awinphoto said:
> 
> 
> > As far as when is a right time, a big photographer once said to keep your day job as long as it doesn't kill you.
> ...



Sorry for posting again immediately, but this was so insightful I couldn't help myself. Incredibly candid and honest. I salute you SB.


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 14, 2012)

This is my take. I kept my "day job" and do photography for extra $$ when I can. This way I can be a "pro" but also have superb health care insurance and a much larger salary with a 9-5. Some people can make it big time with photography, but it's not the highest paid position, ON AVERAGE, in the world. The income you make is limited by YOU. How much business can you handle and attract and how efficient is your business? It can be done, but most of the pros I know kept their 9-5 jobs for at least 2 years until they had their business all planned out and ready to go, before "releasing" into it full time. Would I love to make the same salary in photography as I do in my full-time job? Heck yes! But for me it made a lot more sense to do it this way. If you shoot weddings for awhile, those are on weekends for the most part, and you can make around $3k in central Ohio. Do one every weekend from April-October


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## Hillsilly (Jun 14, 2012)

I'm no pro photographer. Instead, I own an accounting firm. However, I have several clients who are photographers and this gives me a unique insight into how they perform financially. As you'd expect, it is a mixed bag. Some do well financially and most enjoy an at least an average income. Others wish they could be doing better. But generally, established photographers tend to have fairly consistent businesses. But it takes many years to get to reach that stage.

The interesting thing is that it is really hard to pick who will be successful financially. Sometimes it is simple things that do well. I've got one client who travels throughout rural Australia taking photos and portraits of people and then blockmounting them. There's nothing really "special" about his photos as they are almost all the same (that being said, they are good). But he's out there every day knocking on doors to get work. But I've seen other people who are exceptional photographers fail commercially. Anyway, the point I'm trying to get across is that you don't know if it is the right time until you give it a try.

If you have a good idea about how your business will run, the type of work you want to target, pricing structure, how you will gain new clients and how you will promote yourself, then you are halfway there. If you have sufficent financial resources to go a couple of lean years (and aren't afraid to risk it) then your chances of being successful increase dramatically. And while the smart thing would be to stay in your current job, realistically, at some point you will need to commit fully to the new business. If you've got everything in place now, why not make the jump?

However, be realistic. Set some objectives based on the income you need to earn. If you are nowhere near where you need to be, reassess the situation. Sometimes, no matter what you do and how hard you try, things just don't work out. Don't be too proud to give up temporarily and try again when you have some different ideas, more capital or the economy is performing better. OK, you might lose some money, but that's probably the worst that can happen. You will gain some business experience. You will gain some new ideas about photography. You will learn what its like to do it professionally. You'll know whether it is or isn't for you. But most of all, you won't be sitting around in twenty years time living in regret wishing you'd have had a go and thinking you're too old, or have too many financial commitments to take the risk.


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## V8Beast (Jun 14, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> As far as when is a right time, a big photographer once said to keep your day job as long as it doesn't kill you. Keep it until it gets to the point you have so much photography work and it feels like either job will start to suffer if you dont drop your day job. Then is a good time to jump ship because it means you have lots of repeat work coming in, and that is what is needed to survive.



Great advice! 

When you decide to make the jump, make sure to create a separate business entity for your photography endeavors to protect your personal finances from your business expenses. Sounds simple, but it's definitely something that you don't want to take for granted.


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## expatinasia (Jun 14, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> As far as when is a right time, a big photographer once said to keep your day job as long as it doesn't kill you. Keep it until it gets to the point you have so much photography work and it feels like either job will start to suffer if you dont drop your day job. Then is a good time to jump ship because it means you have lots of repeat work coming in, and that is what is needed to survive.



Totally agree, and not just for photography, but setting up any kind of business by yourself.

I started my company many years ago, was eager and hungry to do so (perhaps too much so), but I could have quite easily waited, saved more, and done both my past job and the new company work. Thankfully it all worked out ok, but if I was doing it again I would have stuck with my past job for at least 1 or perhaps even 2 years longer.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.


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## Jettatore (Jun 14, 2012)

Ok, this thread went rapidly downhill. You all quickly and quietly jumped into a pile of well thought out, nice sound rhetoric with a new popular logic of, oh just take it step by step and slowly, don't quit your day slavery..... which leads exactly to gung-ho know it all amateurs who feel beginner's enthusiasm doing just the exact opposite, and the only people actually listening to you are those that have no other choice, and feel good after having listened to this...

Ok, so that's been repeated like 10+ times now, so without simply refreshing the rhetoric, post more facts about your current salary, what level you are at and how many hours you work and where all the 'extra' unforeseen hours that you don't get paid for come from, etc., etc.,

Talk figures, numbers, hours, realities. The rest of this is fantastical rhetoric, no offense.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 14, 2012)

Jettatore said:


> I gave the idea of wedding photography a whirl around my head a few times, went along as 2nd shooter to several weddings with a popular local (but mediocre) wedding photographer, but overall I hate the idea (I don't even like the idea of marriage itself) and that's without knowing any and all the various subtle annoyances of that business that one who hasn't done it first hand for years must surely be overlooking.



Could you please expand on the "subtle annoyances"? I'd be very interested to hear about the less glittery side.


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## K3nt (Jun 14, 2012)

I'd like to latch on to what someone else was saying about how them starting to "chase the money" killed their hobby.
I've been thinking about doing more paid-for work, but what's really holding me back is the thought of me losing my hobby. Right now, I am in a happy place where my day job doesn't interfere too much and I can easily spend a weekend just photographing whatever I want. 
I am very afraid to kill the joy by trying to make a living out of it. At this point, I'd love to, but I know, for myself this is currently not worth the risk or effort.
I had a friend that was an excellent cook, and I mean brilliant, and I once asked him why he doesn't just open his own restaurant seeing how he loved it so much. His answer? "Doctors can bury their mistakes, cooks have to eat theirs." That to me, really summed it up, by making it his job, he would eventually lose the passion for it, not something I want to do.

If you still feel this is what you want and need to do, by all means, heed some of the excellent advice already given. Start slow, work your way up, don't go cold turkey on your day job just yet, get an accountant etc. 

Your work definitely shows that you have an eye for the art, so don't quit! 

Wow, that sounded really negative... it wasn't meant that way.


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## Jettatore (Jun 14, 2012)

Well, that's just what I don't know Marsu. Like I said, I already could tell I loathed it without learning the further little annoyances and 'unforeseen lost hours' without caring enough to look further. Maybe someone else can offer first hand insight but while your at it, please note hours, pay, costs, unforeseen extra work/lost hours, etc., etc. if you can handle that. Because those are the rarest of and most often lied about details when considering any career.


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## LewisShermer (Jun 14, 2012)

My day job already is photography, but the problem is working for someone else rather than for myself at the end of the day. I'd probably market the commercial aspect and the wedding sides of the business separately. no one likes a crossover do they? just sitting here at my desk retouching copious amounts of watches is killing my passion already. then when I get home I have to start work again on all the stuff I'm doing for other people. It just all seems like work work work.

I've planned out my next years photography with regards to the brands we have at work and for the next 3 months I'm shooting head on shots of watches then retouching. After that I have to photograph and put together argos pages for a month then it starts all over again. I can't just keep photographing watches. With being an in house photographer my wages aren't that great and I guess I could make a hell of a lot more doing half the work.

I shot about 100 items for the company of a friend of a friend last week and it basically doubled my salary for the month. real simple shots, glass/pottery/vases/bottles cut outs on white... a bit boring, but nether the less it may lead somewhere else. It's all lit properly with flash heads so it looks pretty good.

I have about 5 weddings lined up that I'm doing for friends for free this summer...

it just really got me thinking


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## Marine03 (Jun 14, 2012)

Hope you don't mind me asking here, but I'm helping a friend with his photography business and doing second shooter at weddings and we have a light box that we are using a lot instead of a photo booth. We think corporate events and schools would be the way to go making money off that, but how the heck does one even advertise to businesses and schools?


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## Jettatore (Jun 14, 2012)

Marine03,

Either setup up a marketing campaign, renting space at large conferences your target customer would likely attend. Or get connected directly with administrators and decision makers at said school or company. You might consider private schools and the like as public schools are being gradually but forcefully phased out by politics w/ private interests. Good luck.


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## awinphoto (Jun 14, 2012)

Marine03 said:


> Hope you don't mind me asking here, but I'm helping a friend with his photography business and doing second shooter at weddings and we have a light box that we are using a lot instead of a photo booth. We think corporate events and schools would be the way to go making money off that, but how the heck does one even advertise to businesses and schools?



Be very careful with school... lots of school districts tend to have contracts with national companies such as lifetouch, etc... Plus they kinda expect some bones thrown to the schools such as free admin and teacher photos, etc. I've heard that private schools, charter schools, and churches may be more profitable... They tend to not have long standing contracts... Good luck. 

edit.... The one exception i've seen is senior portraits... That's becoming quite profitable from what I understand and is more of a free-for-all, just remember to keep ties with the school for website/yearbook photo entry requirements.


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## Dylan777 (Jun 14, 2012)

awinphoto said:


> Living the dream isn't easy... You have to make sure you are making enough doing photography to supplement all your income... In an era where the fine line of professional and amateur is getting thinner and thinner... Lower end cameras are getting so good and frankly it is so easy to learn, Make sure you get your portfolio as good as you can, find out what passions you have with photography... is it portraits, weddings, both, commercial, cars, advertising, product, etc... Find out what makes you unique from any other photographer and what you can bring to the table that someone would hire you over 10 other photographers placing Craigslist ads offering their services for a song and a dance. Get the basics of your business affairs in order such as equipment, printing services, pricing, operations, finances/accounting, market plan... Remember this is a business, not a hobby, and without getting that stuff figured out before hand, it will help you not become a non-profit. Lastly market market market and dont give up. It's easy to get discouraged but if you got a good market plan and keep at it, even if it feels like your getting nowhere, it will work out in the end. There's a lot of expense when dealing with a business so save up while you can.
> 
> As far as when is a right time, a big photographer once said to keep your day job as long as it doesn't kill you. Keep it until it gets to the point you have so much photography work and it feels like either job will start to suffer if you dont drop your day job. Then is a good time to jump ship because it means you have lots of repeat work coming in, and that is what is needed to survive.



100% agreed


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## bp (Jun 14, 2012)

Also highly agree with the quoted part in red above.

Frankly, I think this is a horrible time to "go pro". Especially if you're just starting out and haven't developed a niche. SO MANY people nowadays come home from Wal Mart with a Rebel and a kit lens, and start watermarking every bad shot they take with "My Name Photography" and call themselves a pro and charge a fraction of what you'd need to actually make a living.

Work hard to carve out a niche. Build a reputation and become the "go-to-guy" for that niche in your area. And don't quit the day job until you absolutely have to. Aside from the security, day jobs can help pay for a lot of very nice gear.


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## Marsu42 (Jun 14, 2012)

bp said:


> Frankly, I think this is a horrible time to "go pro". Especially if you're just starting out and haven't developed a niche. SO MANY people nowadays come home from Wal Mart with a Rebel and a kit lens, and start watermarking every bad shot they take with "My Name Photography" and call themselves a pro and charge a fraction of what you'd need to actually make a living.



On the other hand, this will only get worse, won't it? So isn't the reverse thing also true - if you want to go pro do it right now, because in the future all possible niches will get more and more occupied by competition?


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## preppyak (Jun 14, 2012)

sb said:


> But it's not just about income. I made a disturbing realization that the more I was shooting for money, the more my hobby was dying. It has now been YEARS since I went out to take some pictures just for fun. It's not that I don't have time to do it - I just don't feel like it if you can believe that. And that thought saddens me, because I loved my hobby.


I had this same thing happen with my video work; I work as a video editor AND I was producing videos all weekend, and I just got burned out so quickly. It just occurred to me that I haven't done a video in my free time in 4-5 months now basically...which used to be unthinkable. Thankfully I've kept photography from becoming that, and while I did just shoot a friends wedding, I know its not something I want to do consistently for income.

Another good place to ask advice from wedding photographers is this forum: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/board/48

They've been discussing a lot of the same things you asked, and you'd probably learn a lot of the business side from there. I agree with whoever said to become a 2nd shooter for someone; it takes a lot of the risk away from you, but it gives you invaluable experience. The other thing you need to do is stop doing free work; because it will get you branded as the guy who does his work for cheap. If you want to start doing photography full-time, you need to really decide what you'll need to charge, and if you can book clients at that price.


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## adebrophy (Jun 14, 2012)

Great thread - and some wonderful advice. 

I've got to second the advice of hedging your bets and working freelance part time in parallel. I did this when I went freelance as a public relations consultant 18 months ago. I also started a sideline in photography to cater for clients that needed events or PR photos.

being that I was already going freelance in another field this means it was much easier to try photography part time but you could look at whether your current employer would be happy to employ you for 3/4 days per week instead, which could offer you the sort of flexibility that you'd need to get any critical mass on your own work. I did consider that option instead. 

A couple of resources you'll find useful on working out the business plan: 
Freelance fees guide. This website has some great resources including a (simplistic) excel calculator that you can use to try and count up the costs you'll face:

http://www.londonfreelance.org/feesguide/index.php?language=en&country=UK&section=Photography&subsect=Day/base+rates&page=Advice 

This section has some good benchmarks on what people in London are charging:
http://www.londonfreelance.org/feesguide/index.php?&section=Photography&subsect=All&subsubs=All

I think the other piece of advice I'd offer from my limited experience as a newbie is price sensibly. Digital is making this industry easier for part timers to enter but I think it does no one any good to undercut sensible rates that pros need to charge to pay for all the expenses of a viable business. Use benchmarks and then discount from there but don't go too low - no sense commoditising the rates of an industry you want to join! I tend to offer a rate that is in line with the lower end of the average pricing but make it clear to clients that I'm offering those rates as I'm a start up and make them realise that that's why I'm cheaper than the mid range pros. In other words - if you discount, make sure the client realises that that is a discounted rate in a given circumstance. Work on building trust and delivering quality and then charging a full non-discounted rates as that trust is established.


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## adebrophy (Jun 14, 2012)

preppyak said:


> sb said:
> 
> 
> > The other thing you need to do is stop doing free work; because it will get you branded as the guy who does his work for cheap.
> ...


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 14, 2012)

Jettatore said:


> Ok, this thread went rapidly downhill. You all quickly and quietly jumped into a pile of well thought out, nice sound rhetoric with a new popular logic of, oh just take it step by step and slowly, don't quit your day slavery..... which leads exactly to gung-ho know it all amateurs who feel beginner's enthusiasm doing just the exact opposite, and the only people actually listening to you are those that have no other choice, and feel good after having listened to this...
> 
> Ok, so that's been repeated like 10+ times now, so without simply refreshing the rhetoric, post more facts about your current salary, what level you are at and how many hours you work and where all the 'extra' unforeseen hours that you don't get paid for come from, etc., etc.,
> 
> Talk figures, numbers, hours, realities. The rest of this is fantastical rhetoric, no offense.



Can you please share with the group how much money you make as a professional photographer and how much time it takes you per week? Be specific. Then I'll share with you all of the financial business on my end. Thanks.


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## Jettatore (Jun 14, 2012)

Certainly, and I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread. I'm not a professional photographer. I made probably about $2,000 or so (edit: actually I think it was a decent bit less but I don't remember an exact figure) doing freelance Photography gigs last year and at this time I don't plan to do any more paid photography work, I didn't enjoy photography as a paid endeavor one bit.

The gigs were several weddings as a 2nd shooter, lasting from the morning to late evening, starting at the bride/grooms dressing rooms and ending at the toast/dance/eating session, forget what that's called (a note, free, tastey but incredibly unhealthy food was always provided, -note on two occasions the dinner food that was provided for contractor staff, DJ's photographers, etc., was not the same nice fancy food the guests were eating, but the appetizer portions of the events always were and we weren't expected to take pictures of people while they were eating). Also I got roped into doing some handful of photo-booth shenanigans that I had no interest in but offered as a favor to the person I was second shooting for, that was even more miserable than 2nd shooting, by a considerable degree, and after long I washed my hands of the entire debacle. The photo-booth gig had little to nothing to do with photography and more to do with testing my fractured, damaged level of patience, carting around a crummy makeshift curtain/stage and setting up a laptop, printer and camera, before the event: then babysit the software for the event: then pack it up and return the equipment the following day. I briefly considered just building up a portfolio of sample wedding photography, and then advertising for low cost for the first few gigs until I could demand more. The only other thing that came close to paid work was a website deal I was working on that fell through during pre-production and negotiations, where I took some preliminary images of the store/factories location to use in their marketing, but this project fell through and went completely unpaid.

Aside from that bit, since you are probably interested. I have a BFA (Bachelor's of Fine Art) as well as some trade schooling. Some decent knowledge of video editing and 3D animation, and have been studying and working behind applications like Photoshop for more than 14 years.

Photography for me will remain an interest and a hobby, and as well a tool to combine with my other casual art endeavors and occasional freelance gigs, like digital painting, websites, etc.. In general, I have grown to hate art/creativity as a buisiness/way of income and if I was forced to do it all over, I would probably have become a plumber who moonlit as hobbyist artist. I have however, dug my hole rather deep with student loan debt and now at least strive to live cheaply and survive on a small bit of inheritance and reluctantly but hopefully some future but limited freelance/contract creative gigs, (basically just looking to have a lot of free time and financially scrape by unless something more appealing presents itself). This topic however, interests me greatly, as I am interested in the salaries, lifestyles, work life, etc. of art related fields, so your promised input is very much appreciated, thank you very much in advance, cheers.


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 14, 2012)

Thank you. At least now I know you have the perspective that I was looking for. Thank you for being honest, that is respctable. This is what happened to me. I thought I'd go "pro" and have a part-time job and shoot weddings. I was making about $3000/wedding in central Ohio. Some socieconomic/geographic areas are probably markedly different from one another. My clients as you might guess, were very picky. It's their wedding, so why not? The problem I ran into is that no couple in the world wanted me to print and put the photo book together; they wanted the photos sent out and printed by a commercial company and then have me give them the book AND a CD that I made. This cost money. I was not able to build in enough cost because if I would charge, say $3500, I wouldn't get the business. I love photography deeply as a hobby and I'm glad you share this as well. I began hating weddings so bad that I began despising my hobby and wouldn't go out and shoot for fun anymore because I didn't even want to look at my camera. Granted, I did not go into the senior pictures market either, why I didn't I don't know, but I just didn't. I was able to pick up some high school sports for some minor money, maybe $80-$200/game with a CD. But the time it took me to post-process and effort to put the photo books together got me hating my hobby once again. I was and am still not a good enough photographer such that I don't have to do some medium post processing at least. So I quit for awhile. 

I came back refreshed and with a new attitude. I got a good job in my profession (analytical chemistry) and began doing it for fun again and if I felt like it, would shoot events. The thing I learned the hard way was that there was no such thing as a true professional photographer. There is no education required, no board exams, no mentor, no third party to critque. Clients who critique isn't the way to go. Mess up and word of mouth gets around and your business is hurt. It's a really tough way to go. 

I guess I was just cautioning the OP because you can really get burned if you don't ease into it. $3000 for a wedding is ok but I had to shoot around 1500 pictures and then go home and sort through everything and they had to be perfect. The sports I did for $80-$200/game was more laxed, but I had to buy an expensive camera (back then the 1D Mark III) as a tool to fit that style of photography. In a year I highly doubt I could have grossed more than $30,000 and that would have been lucky. I just didn't have the heart to do it. I'm much happier now with a full time job and doing what I'm doing. I make enough to justify high-end L lenses and high-end cameras, but I'm not bogged down in the business stuff that made me hate the hobby. 

My true only costs were a high-end computer and a great photo printer, which turned out I couldn't use much because most clients wanted the work sent out. I also always kept two pro camera bodies and most of the latest L lenses, which if you want a dollar amount there, total costs upwards of $50,000. For sports I printed my own stuff. So I don't have much to share on business expenses because I did it from home. I didn't have a studio downtown, so I guess I'm not a big business photographer, which by the way I hope someone who IS will reply here. Health insurance is a concern so had I gone 100% photography, I would have had to get into a much bigger market.

Thanks for reading.


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## LewisShermer (Jun 15, 2012)

I made about £2500 this month which will hopefully be repeat business and I had a new client on the phone this morning requesting furniture shots... hopefully there will be quite a lot of them 

I reckon I already have my niche in product photography, especially watches and jewellery, which by all accounts is hard to come by someone that knows exactly what they're doing with it regards to lighting something that small and detailed in an appropriate manner. as much as I hate doing it for my day job, if I was charging £100 (which is still quite cheap) for the simple head on or 45 degree c-clip and £300-£500 for a more artistic shot, i could live with doing 5 or 6 a day.







that's one of mine... basically, i knock out about 800 of them a year for some quite big brands. I don't get to spend the time I'd really like to on them as there's just so damn many to get through.






I do loads of that style shot for magazines like cosmo and elle...

Maybe I'm just stuck with it for life? :-\


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## LewisShermer (Jun 15, 2012)

oh, and I started a blog with the more "artistic pro" side of my work...

http://lewismaxwellphotography.tumblr.com/


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## Jettatore (Jun 15, 2012)

LewisShermer said:


> I made about £2500 this month which will hopefully be repeat business...



Not too shabby if I may say. Would you mind mentioning your aprox. total hours for this portion of income? Additionally, any details on how it is spread out would be interesting unless it's completely flexible and either up to you or worked around prior obligations (day job, etc.). Mostly I just want to know the total hours to better understand your hourly rate (aprox is fine but with consideration to what I can only describe as "invisible hours", aka, planning/phone meetings, etc.).

Finally, best of luck to you, and thank you for all the info you have put out there. May you find the best of success and reward.


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## LewisShermer (Jun 15, 2012)

i reckon i can get between 6-10 shots done, clipped and retouched per evening (7pm-1am) so maybe 10 evenings. Although product varied between real simple boxes and quite complex pottery and glass vases which require a little more thought with the lighting. i'm pretty quick at putting paths around stuff but sometimes I go a little over the top with the retouching so everything ends up a little hyper-real, which I guess adds to the charm but sometimes it just adds up the hours. there's no golden rule, some things just take longer than others and you pretty much only get out what you put in. my lighting techniques may not be the best in the world but they're not the worst and hopefully I'll learn a lot more as time goes on.

I'm itching to just hand my notice in and just go for it...


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## bdunbar79 (Jun 15, 2012)

LewisShermer said:


> i reckon i can get between 6-10 shots done, clipped and retouched per evening (7pm-1am) so maybe 10 evenings. Although product varied between real simple boxes and quite complex pottery and glass vases which require a little more thought with the lighting. i'm pretty quick at putting paths around stuff but sometimes I go a little over the top with the retouching so everything ends up a little hyper-real, which I guess adds to the charm but sometimes it just adds up the hours. there's no golden rule, some things just take longer than others and you pretty much only get out what you put in. my lighting techniques may not be the best in the world but they're not the worst and hopefully I'll learn a lot more as time goes on.
> 
> I'm itching to just hand my notice in and just go for it...



Well, the question I'd ask is can you do it right now financially? Can you keep working and be happy while photographing? If you can do it now financially, then you only live once, so do it and be happy. If you need to work longer before you get a bigger business plan, you can always do that too. Trust me, you don't know how badly right now I'd like to go to work and tell everybody to go to hell, quit, and start doing photography full time again. However, I was not in the market you are in. You can make a lot more money doing what you're doing. Make sure also you have a plan for health care. If you go for it I'm sure you'll have the board's full support, so do keep us posted!


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## LewisShermer (Jun 15, 2012)

I split my rent with my housemate and that's £375 a month, the bills come it about £200-£300 a month, I live in the uk so health insurance isn't an issue. I'd have to rent studio space as I can't just keep on shooting product in my flat and having clients around... I'd want to make at least what I make at work plus the studio rent on top so I'd be happy at £2500 a month, £30,000 to £40,000 a year would be brilliant though and make it totally worthwhile.

I'm on a 3 month notice period though so even if I handed notice in now it'd be september before I could really get going. then If i panic i have a little time to get a new job! they're always hiring at McDonald's, right?


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## Jettatore (Jun 15, 2012)

You also (I think) forfeit unemployment benefits (at least in the US).

One strategy you might want to consider, I did this myself a few years back, is to create a nice enough coushin in the bank. Let's call it a "%$&# my day job cushin (%mdjc)". If you had a coushin of money, built up in a bank account, long enough to live on that money alone at your current or similar cost of living for say (3 months, 6 months, a year, etc. etc.) that might help out a bit. It will do a lot of things for you. One you can go in and re-negotiate your day-job hours and responsibilities (or ask for a large raise, etc.), perhaps even gradually ease out as an even better paid mentor for your upcoming replacement, since you can leave in a friendly even paced manner and you have now just given yourself a nice %mdj-cushin which should add a lot of bargaining leverage when you go to talk to your current employer. I used this, not as a bargaining tool but more as a, I can and will quit at any moment and without notice so don't test me cushion. And if they just let you go outright, who cares you have alternate income and a big cushin to land on if need be, also this is less likely to even happen as it's probably cheaper for them to pay you to train someone with less experience than to find another you already ready to go and probably pay her/him more than you are currently getting (otherwise they would have likely replaced you already)...

Also, a quick note, that may or may not be relevant, possibly relevant for renting studio space? If you need a loan/mortgage for anything, new car, condo, studio, etc.. Do it now (if you must do it at all) while your employed fulltime and taking in additional income. Otherwise, you might not just get the loan if you do it afterwards.

Again, good luck, and a final thank you for all the 1st hand information you have shared. Cheers


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## V8Beast (Jun 16, 2012)

LewisShermer said:


> I'm itching to just hand my notice in and just go for it...



Your product shots are outstanding! If I got my conversion rates right, coincidentally, I made about the same amount of money as you do my first few months of freelancing. My expenses were far lower back then, so I could afford to take he risk, and I saved up enough money from my day job to cover my ass for a few months in case things didn't work out. The difference was that my day job involved working on staff at a magazine, so in order to venture off on my own as a freelancer, in the same niche field I was working in, I had to quit beforehand. 

In retrospect, it wasn't the wisest move, but the gamble paid off. I generally wouldn't recommend this, but if your day job is making you that miserable, you're willing to take the risk, and you have a safety net of cash saved, the time to take these gambles are when you're young and your financial commitments aren't as much of a burden as they are for old farts like me 

At the very least, I'd see if you get enough repeat business for a couple of months before making the plunge. Best of luck!


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## LewisShermer (Jun 18, 2012)

thanks for everyone's advice! ;D

for now I reckon I'm going to try and build up a client base before I do anything too daft. I'll have a couple of meetings with the bank to see what they say, take out as little a loan as I can to cover me and see how it goes. my boss is out of work now for two weeks so I'm running things so it shouldn't be too bad for a little while


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## Marsu42 (Jun 18, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> Your product shots are outstanding!



True and good commendation, but one thing I'll keep in mind is people saying not only your shots matter, but your whole product (from getting a call to delivering a print) as well as your ability to raise and communicate w/ clients and take care of the business side (paperwork, advertising, financing adequate gear)?


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