# Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 27, 2013)

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<p><strong>What’s coming this year

</strong>A very reliable source has told us what Canon has planned in 2013 as far as product launches go. This is looking to be a slower year for new Canon products, especially when compared to 2012.</p>
<p>None of this includes new Cinema EOS products.</p>
<p><strong>Cameras

</strong>There will be 3 DSLRs launched in 2013, two of them will be “entry level” and one will be “mid level”. The two entry level cameras will probably be a new Rebel and a 70D.</p>
<p>The midlevel camera is probably the EOS 7D Mark II. This camera will get its own launch festivities sometime in the second half of 2013 we’re told.</p>
<p>There will also be one new EOS-M body, which is a pretty logical step forward for the platform.</p>
<p><strong>Lenses

</strong>4 new EF lenses will be launched in 2013, there was no mention of exactly which lenses it would be. We all know the usual suspects, and everything points to a new 100-400L and that would sit nicely next to a new 7D.</p>
<p>We’re hoping to get a more detailed breakdown of the upcoming lenses soon.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Pitbullo (Jan 27, 2013)

Oh well... my rebel still works perfectly. ;D


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## LuCoOc (Jan 27, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> everything points to a new 100-400L



I believe in a 100-400 L II when I see it. This lens is the successor of the _never going to be updated_ 24-70 2.8 IS / II here on CannonRumors :


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## candyman (Jan 27, 2013)

It would be nice to have an update on the 50mm f/1.4 - at least I am curious about it.


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## pedro (Jan 27, 2013)

candyman said:


> It would be nice to have an update on the 50mm f/1.4 - at least I am curious about it.



What would be the improvement in a new 50 f/1.4 have over the old one? 
As an amateur the current lens works pretty well for me. Took a picture just yesterday. Very low light. Only source was a flatscreen. No NR applied.




Z96A3292bNoNRBWcropDEFKLEIN by Peter Hauri, on Flickr


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## xps (Jan 27, 2013)

*7 D II in the 2. half of 2013 -> :'(

The 100-400 L successor will be a favorite for me, because my >10 year old pulling zoom 100-400 is sometimes hard to handle if it is cold. But it will be much more expensive....*

I am for a little while in the hotel @ Kitzbuehel (Austria (Europe)), freezing a little bit, because it is very cold here on the venue. 
Seen Arni, and 2 persons that carry interresting Canon Cameras and lenses. But they turned away, when they saw that I was interrested in their gear. 2 Mid sized bodies with a lot of lenses. One big lens with an bulge on the beginning near the Cam. One mid sized turning zoom. 
They used an handheld laptop to look at the pictures the other photographer made, when the skiiers passed. Taking the temperature and measuring something with an sensor that was glueing on the Lens. 

Today it is more easy to shoot, the speed is moderate. Yesterday, my 7D and my 60D had some problems with the horrible speed of the skiers. Many unsharp pics...

But one photographer had an super zoom: Green, very fat. Seems to be very heavy. And mounted on an special tripod. This guy moved around "Rumpelstilzchen". Using an big Nikon.


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## -Jarred- (Jan 27, 2013)

xps said:


> *7 D II in the 2. half of 2013 -> :'(*


*

Yeah, more time to save I 'spose!*


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## honsten (Jan 27, 2013)

Son of a.... Two more bodies with the 18mp sensor until the 7D2 by the sounds of it.


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## xps (Jan 27, 2013)

-Jarred- said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > *7 D II in the 2. half of 2013 -> :'(*
> ...


*

In another forum they suppose >2500$ for the MK 2.  I hope they will be wrong with this rumor*


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## candyman (Jan 27, 2013)

pedro said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > It would be nice to have an update on the 50mm f/1.4 - at least I am curious about it.
> ...



Nice shot.

I started with the 50mm and 7D. I tested the Canon and didn't like it. I ended up with the Sigma. The Sigma is great on APS-C but not such a great performer when using with the 5D MKIII. So I checked 3 copies of the Canon on the FF. Below f2 not very sharp. So, I am still waiting what Canon can offer in a new model. Just curious.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

xps said:


> In another forum they suppose >2500$ for the MK 2.  I hope they will be wrong with this rumor



It really depends on what the level definition is - looking a the prices for "top-level" cinema eos & 1dx $2.5k might still qualify for mid-level, esp. if a $1.5k 70d is now "entry level" :-o

I wouldn't be surprised if the new cameras are either very expensive (7d2) or very gimmick-oriented (70d = 60d + wifi + gps + afma + touchscreen). After all the very plain 6d is $2000, so a more af/fps/fw-capable camera that only lacks high iso performance should be at least as expensive.


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## chauncey (Jan 27, 2013)

I think that...the best thing would be that if someone would make an adapter to allow canon lenses to be used on Nikon bodies, you would see a sales drop in Canon bodies.
Canon is taking waaay too long to get their proverbial $hit together.


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## ronderick (Jan 27, 2013)

Let's see... 100-400 f/4-5.6L IS II, 14-24 f/2.8L, and TSE-90 f/2.8L, and TSE-45 f/2.8L.

That's four, right?


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## Quasimodo (Jan 27, 2013)

chauncey said:


> I think that...the best thing would be that if someone would make an adapter to allow canon lenses to be used on Nikon bodies, you would see a sales drop in Canon bodies.
> Canon is taking waaay too long to get their proverbial $hit together.



It never takes long.....


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## HarryWintergreen (Jan 27, 2013)

Canon seems to be thinking they float outside evolution.


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## taz (Jan 27, 2013)

Here is what i think: ;D

Rebel: 1200d (new sensor, low specs) and 70d (same 18 mpix sensor with 19 AF points, more fps, wifi and gps, video button, touch screen)

Mid level: 7d with new sensor and new specs. 

2014: rebel/700d with the sensor from the "7D version 2".


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## -Jarred- (Jan 27, 2013)

xps said:


> -Jarred- said:
> 
> 
> > xps said:
> ...


*

Surely they wouldn't price it above the 6D?*


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

-Jarred- said:


> Surely they wouldn't price it above the 6D?



Of course they would, the 6d is entry level (it just happens to be full frame), the 7d is medium to pro (sports/wildlife aps-c) ... the 1.6x lens magnification is the reason many photogs have a 7d even if they could easily afford a 5d3.

Think of the price difference of a 300mm lens to a 300x1.6 ~= 500mm lens - that's the amount of money you can save when buying aps-c over ff, and Canon know they can add a part of the difference on top of the 7d2 price.


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## bardamu (Jan 27, 2013)

2nd half of 2013 eh? Hangin' out for that 7d mk ii... assuming it lives up to expectations I've decided that it is the most logical upgrade path for me... my 550D has taken a beating and now has a dead pixel and some posterisation issues with the LCD screen, not to mention I'm after some higher level specs in a few areas. Still a very handy camera though.

I guess if my 550D kicks the bucket I'll have to replace it with a 600D, which are dirt cheap these days, or a 7D classic maybe. I suppose if the 7D mk ii delivers what we hope for then it might be worth waiting for. I'm guessing a price of $2200-$2300, surely the price can't go too close to that of the 5D mk iii...


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## Don Haines (Jan 27, 2013)

If we assume no sensor improvements, we get the following:

Look at the T4i. You can't pimp it out much more. The only things missing are wireless and GPS. Other than that, it has every function canon has for a camera. If there was a new rebel, you have to add this. This leaves the 70D with the only possible improvements over the new rebel as better build, shoulder display, and the reintroduction of AFMA. Since they said it would be incremental improvement..... No new sensor.... 

The 7Dii, if it is to better than the 70D, would have to be dual processors for higher fps....plus all the 70D functions except for tilt/swivel screen.

The problem is that I can pick up an Olympus E-M5 that beats the iq of any canon APS-c camera and they are supposed to be introducing an even better successor to the E-5 ..... Or I can go Panasonic......or I can go Sony..... Or I can go Nikon.... Canon is now positioned at the bottom of the APS-c world for iq and even micro four thirds is beating it. A new sensor is long overdue and no upgrade will be worth it until they release one. I just hope they do it before we add iPhone to the list of cameras with better sensors.


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## Sphyn0x (Jan 27, 2013)

taz said:


> Here is what i think: ;D
> 
> Rebel: 1200d (new sensor, low specs) and 70d (same 18 mpix sensor with 19 AF points, more fps, wifi and gps, video button, touch screen)
> 
> ...



I hope there will be no touchscreen. Regular swivel screen is enough.


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## FunPhotons (Jan 27, 2013)

Well that's too bad - no high MP body, but good for my wallet I guess. 

If they release a new 100-400 I'll get it though.


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## motorhead (Jan 27, 2013)

So no response to Nikons D800e any time soon then! I'm not surprised, because historically Canon do like to take their time. Hopefully it means that when we do see a new IDs or its equivalent it will have been worth the wait and does not instead mean that they have no idea how to outdo the D800E!


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## Don Haines (Jan 27, 2013)

Sphyn0x said:


> I hope there will be no touchscreen. Regular swivel screen is enough.


You will probably see touch screens on everything now. It's easier on the design process to have a common screen across bodies and cheaper for mass production. It also means less different parts in a repair depot. You can always turn the touch functionality off....


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## well_dunno (Jan 27, 2013)

dilbert said:


> I wonder what Nikon's roadmap is and how their competitive launch will compare to Canon's...



Probably a D7000 replacement one could expect, over at nikon rumors news as this one are showing up:
http://nikonrumors.com/2013/01/21/nikon-d7000-listed-as-discontinued-in-australian-retailer.aspx/

I wonder whether they are looking into something more like the 5Dmk3 - D800/e, for the good and bad, does not seem to be aimed at the same market segment and as much as Canon needs a direct competitor to D800, Nikon would need a direct competitor to 5Dmk3... At least the idea comes to mind...


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## Woody (Jan 27, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> If we assume no sensor improvements, we get the following:
> 
> Look at the T4i. You can't pimp it out much more. The only things missing are wireless and GPS. Other than that, it has every function canon has for a camera. If there was a new rebel, you have to add this. This leaves the 70D with the only possible improvements over the new rebel as better build, shoulder display, and the reintroduction of AFMA. Since they said it would be incremental improvement..... No new sensor....
> 
> ...



Well said. I've replaced my APS-C stuff with the Oly OM-D E-M5.


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## K-amps (Jan 27, 2013)

-Jarred- said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > -Jarred- said:
> ...


*

They would not want to limit themselves by what size sensor they put in the 6D... other functionality also affects price... not just sensor size.

I am of the opinion that the 6D should have been named the 8D... this would have allowed them to up price the 7dii.... but they can always break the rules of pricing smaller model numbers less than larger numbers... 

They will break naming conventions if they see it makes them more money...*


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## Dukinald (Jan 27, 2013)

xps said:


> -Jarred- said:
> 
> 
> > xps said:
> ...


*

So for me, this would be an end of year purchase as I'm not an early adopter.

Oh well, if the price is what you've indicated, the 6D will be the update path for me.*


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## Don Haines (Jan 27, 2013)

Woody said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > If we assume no sensor improvements, we get the following:
> ...


I'm wondering about the e-5 successor.... The 50-200 is a nice chunk of glass and the 12-60 is nothing to sneeze at either..... Just wished they had a 400 or 500 for birding/wildlife


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## Bob Howland (Jan 27, 2013)

After the introduction of the Metabones Speed Booster, I have to wonder if Canon will introduce a version of their own for M-bodies and EF lenses. Conceivably, they could make one with 0.62996 magnification (1.5874 crop factor) while increasing the aperture by 1-1/3 stops, an improvement of 1/3 stops over the Metabones.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

Somehow, I feel like Canon should skip 2013 and go right to 2014 :-o


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## TrumpetPower! (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> -Jarred- said:
> 
> 
> > Surely they wouldn't price it above the 6D?
> ...



I don't have a 7D. But what I've heard and read from those who have both it and a 5DIII, even using the same lenses for little birdies when they're distance-limited with both bodies, the 5DIII still beats the 7D. I've heard from more than one person who had both with the intention of using them for different stuff...and who ditched the 7D (either altogether or to pay for another 5DIII).

Even though the cropped image from the 5DIII doesn't have as many megapickles as the still cropped image from the 7D, the image quality is at least comparable, with the nod perhaps going to the 5DIII. But, more importantly, even though the frame rate is lower for the 5DIII, the autofocus system is so much better that you get a higher percentage of keepers.

So, if you want something better than a 7D, consider a 5DIII.

One would assume, of course, that the 7DII would have the same autofocus as the 5DIII and the frame rate of the 7D and image quality up to current standards, which would obviously tip the scales back to the 7DII for distance-limited photography. But I think it's also safe to assume that the 5DIV will again jump ahead, and that the two will continue to play leapfrog.

Cheers,

b&


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## xps (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Somehow, I feel like Canon should skip 2013 and go right to 2014 :-o



+1 ;D


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## pdirestajr (Jan 27, 2013)

How about we all just go shoot photographs with the cameras and lenses we have right now, and meet back here in a year! Doesn't look like much of anything interesting will be happening, and to me that's actually fine- I don't have to spend any money for a few minutes!

The technology is really getting good, upgrades are so minor these days, there's no real excuses left.

I think I'll buy an X100s though just to satisfy my sickness.

Cheers!


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## emko (Jan 27, 2013)

do you guys think the new 100-400 will again be with this push zoom?


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## xps (Jan 27, 2013)

I had an interresting talk with five Japanese tourists at the winners ceremony. 
They had professional Nikon and Canon cameras and told me that Nikon will release a top Crop Camera in spring this year and update their Nikon 100-400 pedant (80-400 or so). 

The Canon 7D2 will be priced much higher than an D300 successor, near the 5D3 . 
The Camera will be an class for its own. A small 1Dx. Fast AF and high fps. A special product for all persons that will need high speed and do not have the money for an 1Dx.
The Canon successor of the 100-400 will be at 270.000-300000 Yen. 

One of them said, that in Japanese photography chatrooms many think, that Canon should buy some of the parts at thrid party companies. Today the Sony chip is much better than Canons. 
And if Canon will not change their strategy, they will be soon in financial problems


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## xps (Jan 27, 2013)

emko said:


> do you guys think the new 100-400 will again be with this push zoom?



I got the information that there will be an rotating zoom. But much higher priced than the 100-400 L (Rumors from Japanese tourists that are photographic enthusiasts)


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## candyman (Jan 27, 2013)

xps said:


> I had an interresting talk with five Japanese tourists at the winners ceremony.
> They had professional Nikon and Canon cameras and told me that Nikon will release a top Crop Camera in spring this year and update their Nikon 100-400 pedant (80-400 or so).
> 
> *The Canon 7D2 will be priced much higher than an D300 successor, near the 5D3* .
> ...




I would consider to upgrade my 7D to a 7D MK II but I am not that desperate to pay almost 3000 euro


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## garyknrd (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm tired of waiting. I shoot wildlife and have two great canon lenses. But also have the same ones in Sigma mount for Pentax. I am buying the new k-5 II and a grip. Shelving the new CAnon 500 II until I can get a decent crop body. Screw em.


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## xps (Jan 27, 2013)

candyman said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > I had an interresting talk with five Japanese tourists at the winners ceremony.
> ...



This is really true. IMO Canon knows that enthusiasts will buy their Cameras. (Like we need the newest smartphone, even if it is not better than the predecessor. And they know that it is very expensive to change the equipment in lenses to another product line.
So the success will be guaranteed


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 27, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> The problem is that I can pick up an Olympus E-M5 that beats the iq of any canon APS-c camera and they are supposed to be introducing an even better successor to the E-5 ..... Or I can go Panasonic......or I can go Sony..... Or I can go Nikon.... Canon is now positioned at the bottom of the APS-c world for iq and even micro four thirds is beating it.



From a DxO-minded, sensor-only viewpoint, sure. But what's the lens selection like over there? I think you know the answer, as a few posts later, you wish for a 400mm lens.


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## Don Haines (Jan 27, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > The problem is that I can pick up an Olympus E-M5 that beats the iq of any canon APS-c camera and they are supposed to be introducing an even better successor to the E-5 ..... Or I can go Panasonic......or I can go Sony..... Or I can go Nikon.... Canon is now positioned at the bottom of the APS-c world for iq and even micro four thirds is beating it.
> ...



As I am fond of saying, it is a camera system, not just a sensor. For my needs and preferences, I greatly prefer the ergonomics of the non-rebel canons. Four thirds and micro four thirds have nothing that compares to Canon Lglass, particularly when you get past 200mm..... For birds and wild animals there is nothing that compares to long glass, with canon I can dream of a 600 f4, not so with the others. A 60D and a 400 5.6 beats anything micro four thirds can offer to me.... A 5Diii and a 600f4 would be nirvana (nerdvana?)

Right now the sensor is the weak part of the chain, but even so the system beats the competition for my needs.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 27, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Right now the sensor is the week part of the chain, but even so the system beats the competition for my needs.



+1


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## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

TrumpetPower! said:


> I don't have a 7D. But what I've heard and read from those who have both it and a 5DIII, even using the same lenses for little birdies when they're distance-limited with both bodies, *the 5DIII still beats the 7D*.



What you have heard and read is absolutely correct. The 5D3 puts the 7D to shame ... 1.6 crop factor notwithstanding!



TrumpetPower! said:


> I've heard from more than one person who had both with the intention of using them for different stuff...and *who ditched the 7D (either altogether or to pay for another 5DIII)*.



I'm one of these people ... I ditched the 7D because the 7D was only gathering dust ever since I got the 5DIII. I used the funds I got from the sale of the 7D to get a 6D instead (as a second FF body) - I click half my pics when I travel for "work" and where I go to there is sufficient dust to clog up most vacuum cleaners ... leave alone a little camera sensor, so changing lenses in the field is next to impossible. 



TrumpetPower! said:


> One would assume, of course, that the 7DII would have the same autofocus as the 5DIII and the frame rate of the 7D and image quality up to current standards, which would obviously tip the scales back to the 7DII for distance-limited photography. But I think it's also safe to assume that the 5DIV will again jump ahead, and that the two will continue to play leapfrog.



I hope so but doubt that ... Canon has been screwing up the latest offerings to the extent of crippling them "substantially" (the 6D is a case is point - only 11 AF points, less than even the 7D). Some important cog in the wheel will, surely, be missing!


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## 20Dave (Jan 27, 2013)

xps said:


> In another forum they suppose >2500$ for the MK 2.  I hope they will be wrong with this rumor



I have a hard time believing that. The 7D was $1,700 when introduced. History of the XXD series was that the new models come out near the introductory price of the previous model. At $2,500, that would be too close to what the 5DIII will be at the same time. I can't imagine what whiz-bang features would prompt me to buy a crop camera that is roughly the same price as a 5DIII. If Canon wants to squeeze money out of a top-of-the-line APS-C camera, my uneducated guess is that it would come in slightly under $2k. I would put the Vegas over/under at $1,899.

Dave


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## sanj (Jan 27, 2013)

No need to worry too much. 
We do not know what Canon will announce in the next two months leave alone what if will announce in the entire year...!!!

I doubt Canon will let Nikon have a high megapixel camera and it not for over two years...!!


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## xps (Jan 27, 2013)

20Dave said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > In another forum they suppose >2500$ for the MK 2.  I hope they will be wrong with this rumor
> ...



I hope you will be right.
But there several persons think that the fast AF and fst fps are more worth then 2000€


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## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

sanj said:


> No need to worry too much.
> We do not know what Canon will announce in the next two months leave alone what if will announce in the entire year...!!!



You forgot to mention ... at what price! ;D



sanj said:


> I doubt Canon will let Nikon have a high megapixel camera and it not for over two years...!!



Don't get your drift


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## Stu_bert (Jan 27, 2013)

Guess I'll be spending most of my cash on trips around the globe using my "outdated" kit but still taking great shots... (that's the camera, not me ;D)

It will be interesting if a 7D MK II has better sensor tech and how that will sit with the 5D / 1Dx - that's a balancing game for Canon. In that respect, I think Nikon have had an advantage being able to implement it across most of their range. Canon has a more tricky introduction. They could bring in something more expensive than a 1Dx (High MP) with better sensor tech without too many issues as it will not have the same high frame rate.

That gives them another challenge with the 7D II - if it matches the AF of the 5D III and has better sensor tech, then will they "hold back" to ensure it does not offer a compelling alternative to the 5D / 1Dx, or will they follow Nikon and accept cannibalism across their ranges? I guess they might, but balance it by pricing it above the 5D III and below the 1Dx with a higher MP body to redress the "balance" in the Pro range...

I'm guessing a 7D II in the autumn above the 5D III and a High MP announced at CP+ 2014


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## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

20Dave said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > In another forum they suppose >2500$ for the MK 2.  I hope they will be wrong with this rumor
> ...



+1

I don't see how many people people will be queuing up for the 7DII if it were even close to the 5D3. 

It will, I believe, be for less than the 6D.


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## ddashti (Jan 27, 2013)

Finally some CR2 level news! The 7D Mark II and the 100-400L would be an expected combination from Canon.
As for the rebels, is a new one really needed every year? It doesn't seem like they're upgrading them that much...


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## zim (Jan 27, 2013)

1200D, 18mp + Digic 5 = same image quality as 650D maybe wifi for a bit of bling would I think be rather good to great for the base level DSLR offering.
As for AF points who knows what is going through their heads with that one but I’d guess 11 with one cross type. It should be 11 cross but they have screwed up so much higher up the food chain there’s no chance of that.
Whilst they lag behind on sensors they should be really pushing those other differentiators in a system like ergonomics and AF performance and yet these are the things they cripple or are at best inconsistent with in the upgrade paths


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## samkatz (Jan 27, 2013)

Pleaaase give us a new 100- 400 IS L lens..

I've been saving my *unemployment check*s


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## Quasimodo (Jan 27, 2013)

With the APS-H seemingly being dead as far as rumors are concerned, there is a void for those who want excellent IQ and the range given by crop sensors. I am betting the 7D II will kick some serious ass, the price notwithstanding.


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## distant.star (Jan 27, 2013)

.
So glad to hear about this great new source!

I'm off to find some Japanese tourists with cameras! I'm guessing the ones carrying high end equipment have the best intel?

Will report back on my findings!


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## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

J.R. said:


> It will, I believe, be for less than the 6D.



Not necessarily, at least not the starting price. Canon's strategy is to use a ridiculously high release price, then wait until all early adopters suckers paid up, then lower the price, wait some again and repeat until the camera body is phased out. And there will be early 7d2 adopters because of the crop factor, €1000 more or less doesn't exactly matter for many people who are able to afford Canon tele primes.


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## RS2021 (Jan 27, 2013)

distant.star said:


> .
> So glad to hear about this great new source!
> 
> I'm off to find some Japanese tourists with cameras! I'm guessing the ones carrying high end equipment have the best intel?
> ...



*Chuckle* ;D


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## RS2021 (Jan 27, 2013)

pedro said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > It would be nice to have an update on the 50mm f/1.4 - at least I am curious about it.
> ...



Cool shot, but what is that in the foreground! Looks like a cabbage!


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## RS2021 (Jan 27, 2013)

ronderick said:


> Let's see... 100-400 f/4-5.6L IS II, 14-24 f/2.8L, and TSE-90 f/2.8L, and TSE-45 f/2.8L.
> 
> That's four, right?



Oh grow up!!!! ;D


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## RS2021 (Jan 27, 2013)

emko said:


> do you guys think the new 100-400 will again be with this push zoom?



the "new" 100-400L has been dragged out for effect so many times on rumor forums debating if it "will be" this or that is like debating if people from Oklahoma have a dominant left or right brain.


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## RS2021 (Jan 27, 2013)

xps said:


> I had an interresting talk with five Japanese tourists at the winners ceremony.
> They had professional Nikon and Canon cameras and told me that Nikon will release a top Crop Camera in spring this year and update their Nikon 100-400 pedant (80-400 or so). Canon...[redact] will be soon in financial problems



Bwahahahah! So I take it this rumor is "JT3?" 



xps said:


> emko said:
> 
> 
> > do you guys think the new 100-400 will again be with this push zoom?
> ...



I don't know about your Japanese tourists, but I asked the homeless guy in front of the City Hall, and he was fairly certain it will be remote-controlled accordion design and will come with a dedicated Organ-Grinder monkey.


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## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Jackson_Bill said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > TrumpetPower! said:
> ...



That would be a fair assessment if the AF demands were not too stringent.


----------



## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > It will, I believe, be for less than the 6D.
> ...



I guess they can also afford the 1DX and wouldn't care about the latest crop cam


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 27, 2013)

Many interesting comments, largely correct from despondent APS-C devotees. Some thoughts on this announcement:


For those arguing the 7D2 can't have a higher price than the 6D, I'd _strongly_ reconsider that position: 

First, by the time the 7D2 will come to market (if this report is accurate) the 6D may drop under $2k. 



Second, the 7D and proposed 7D2 is not a 'nice' or mid-level camera. It is a top of the line feature set for the smaller sensor. The idea that a smaller sensor makes it a second class citizen is absurd -- IQ / DOF impact / noise are very important _but they are not everything_. That smaller sensor is not solely a takeaway -- it buys you range and burst rate. Pro sports shooters and birders love both of those things. Also, serious amateurs / enthusiasts can use the crop range multiplier to get into long glass without having to take out a loan; my friend has the money for a 5D3 but only cares about crop length as it keeps him in the $1k-2k lens range and not in the $6k-10k lens range. For that reason APS-C is, and will remain, financially vital -- even after FF sensors come down in price.



Third, a rhetorical argument to be fair, but aren't premiums and price points king these days? Hell, a high end Ford can cost more than an entry level Audi, right? 



As such, a state of the art 7D2 coming out for less than a +1 year old 6D would boggle my mind. 




From an EF lens perspective, only 4 lenses is disappointing:


One of them is *100% likely* to be the (non-L) 50mm IS to replace the venerable 50mm F/1.4. Whether the new one will still offer F/1.4 or more likely F/1. 8 or F/2.0 remains to be seen, but it will 100% likely have IS. This is assured because the 50 F/1.4 (along with the stellar 85mm F/1.8 ) is next in line after the 24 IS, 28 IS and 35 IS lenses to get updated. The 50 IS will be a massive upgrade over the 20+ year old 50 F/1.4, I have no doubt. As such, I'm looking forward to it.

For those doubting how much nicer the new 50 IS will be over the 50 F/1.4, think again. It will have internal focusing, near-L build quality and far better IQ and focusing. I have said and will continue to say that my 28 IS punches it weight against L lenses brilliantly.


_Only four_ is disappointing to me in that I am eager to see _new L primes in these same wide/standard lengths_ that hopefully have IS. But only 4 new lenses would say that it's not happening this year. If I had to guess, 2 of the four will be the aforementioned non-L 50 and 85, and there has been a fair amount of info to suggest the others would likely be an ultrawide zoom (the mythical 14-24) and something longer like the 100-400 or (finally) the 200-400/1.4x.


One possible theory for so few lenses? All of their lens designers and manufacturing capacity are likely committed to building up the EOS-M lens portfolio. Roll your eyes all you want, but that mount is here and it needs glass to be successful. I'd be stunned if there wasn't a 55-250-like option and a macro lens for EOS-M in the next 12-18 months. There's even value for the 'serious tourists' to go after an EOS-M variant of the EF-S 10-22. Sure, the EOS-M has an adapter, but that was aimed at us -- the serious users who want a small second body. But if you are a new camera owner, why take a camera the size of a deck of cards and bolt thick adapters and thicker (and more expensive) EF lenses to it? EOS-M needs its own glass offerings, and quickly if Canon is to catch up in mirrorless.





It continues to shock me that Canon is top of the line for lenses, AF, and ergonomics (in my opinion), yet it continues to have poor sensors compared to the competition. I don't put too much faith in those DXO scores, but the dynamic range data out there, particularly in low ISO, gives compelling reason that Sony/Nikon sensors are a _solid_ step ahead of Canon's. Heck, in some of these tests we're seeing lower price point sensors beat the Canon counterparts (D600 trumping the 5D3, for instance).


As always, this is fun to chat about. None of this is changing my affiliation for a host of reasons, btw. On aggregate, as many have said, I'm using the right system.

- A


----------



## xps (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > It will, I believe, be for less than the 6D.
> ...


+1


----------



## EOBeav (Jan 27, 2013)

pedro said:


> What would be the improvement in a new 50 f/1.4 have over the old one?



Build quality, plain and simple. Actually, all they'd have to do is make that inside barrel out of something a little more solid than plastic, and the problem would be solved.


----------



## xps (Jan 27, 2013)

Ray2021 said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > I had an interresting talk with five Japanese tourists at the winners ceremony.
> ...



:


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jan 27, 2013)

Jackson_Bill said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > TrumpetPower! said:
> ...



That may be true for the 5D3/7D, but is not true with the 1DX/7D.


----------



## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Jackson_Bill said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson_Bill said:
> ...



Nice shot ... but the point I'm trying to make is that the AF of the 5D3 is way much better than the 7D and will result in more keepers.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 27, 2013)

From J.R.: _Nice shot ... but the point I'm trying to make is that the AF of the 5D3 is way much better than the 7D and will result in more keepers._.

Agree, but is there any doubt that the 7D2 will be given the 1DX / 5D3's awesome AF system? Not for me. I think it's a lock.

I'm not saying the 7D2 is getting two DIGIC chips or the 1DX's dedicated metering system, but I think the AF will be top of the line. It's an action camera, so it needs great AF and they happen to have one ready to go. Further, it will commonize the user experience for shooters who bounce between FF and APS-C bodies.

- A


----------



## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> Agree, but is there any doubt that the 7D2 will be given the 1DX / 5D3's awesome AF system? Not for me. I think it's a lock.



Considering Canon crippled the 6D to only 11 AF points with only 1 Xtype point, I don't think it is a given. As I mentioned in my earlier posts ... something somewhere will surely be missing. 

1DX AF system in the 7D2 ... I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## kia (Jan 27, 2013)

hi . so what happened to that high megapixel ff camera that was going to be anounced ??


----------



## Bob Howland (Jan 27, 2013)

J.R. said:


> Jackson_Bill said:
> 
> 
> > J.R. said:
> ...



The AF demands would have to be very stringent indeed. I've yet to find a situation where my 5D3 would focus but my 7D wouldn't, at least with a "reasonable" amount of light. Mostly I use the 7D as a 1.6X teleconverter when shooting outdoor sports, a role for which it is admirably suited. I think that 7D images are better than cropped images from a 5D3 or using a teleconverter and a 5D3, except maybe with my 300 f/2.8. I have noticed that 7D images have more contrast and less dynamic range than 5D3 images.

I'm waiting for the Canon M1, the professional model in the M series. With no mirror to move, 24FPS might be possible.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jan 27, 2013)

J.R. said:


> Considering Canon crippled the 6D to only 11 AF points with only 1 Xtype point



I just would like to point out that like the 5d2, the 6d has *no* real cross af point at all @f2.8, but if the horizontal-only f2.8 line cannot lock falls back to the less precise f5.6 overlay x-point. Thanks, Canon.


----------



## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Bob Howland said:


> The AF demands would have to be very stringent indeed. I've yet to find a situation where my 5D3 would focus but my 7D wouldn't, at least with a "reasonable" amount of light.



If you do not find the AF of the 5D3 vastly different then maybe ... well, what can I say :-\ 

My mileage with the 5D3 is much better as compared to the 7D ... I don't print large so I don't really need the extra MP the 7D has to offer.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Considering Canon crippled the 6D to only 11 AF points with only 1 Xtype point
> ...



Sorry to go off-topic, but to speak to the prospects of the 7D2's AF system, consider from the FF world:

1DX: State of the art 61/41 AF system, state of the art metering with dedicated processor, fastest burst
5D3: State of the art 61/41 AF system*, but something like the current 7D's metering**, good burst
6D: Nerfed AF system (limited options), but something like the current 7D's metering**, slowest burst

* Yes, I realize that this royally p----- off 1D users accustomed to exclusive tech. As a 5D3 owner, I absolutely love this call.

** I don't study metering as often, but the specs seemed numerically similar if not identical from what I've (admittedly briefly) read.

So wouldn't it be logical for the following arrangement?

7D2: State of the art 61/41 AF system, but something like the current 7D's metering, fastest burst
70D: Ok AF system (decent but not 1DX/5D3), but something like the current 7D's metering, good burst
700D: Nerfed AF system (limited options), ??? for metering and slowest burst
XXXXD: Worst of everything, might spontaneously explode from users having even modest burst rate hopes

I fully understand why the 6D was nerfed. Great AF takes hardware (and therefore cost) to pull off, and they wanted (a) to get the 6D cost down and (b) protect the 5D3 as the all-around popular/mainstream FF choice. Mission accomplished on both fronts, but the D600 has far more AF points (albeit all within a hair of center) to sell against the 6D as a result.

But the 7D2 (a) will not be cheap (see my post on Page 5) and (b) is not in any way competing with the 5D3 unless you are the most discriminating pixel peeper who doesn't mind teleconverters or madly expensive long glass.

So give the damn 7D2 the AF system it ought to have -- the best one!

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 27, 2013)

Hypothetically, if a _spectacular_ -- I mean game-changingly better -- APS-C body were offered... That with glass of length X that took shots as well as a great FF camera did with glass of length 1.6X...

Wouldn't that be a camera worth $3k? Hell,_ $4K?!_ As nuts as that sounds, think of the money saved on buying X length glass instead of 1.6X length.

Just saying. :

- A


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm telling you guys, you're gonna want that cowbell on the 7D Mark II.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2013)

pedro said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > It would be nice to have an update on the 50mm f/1.4 - at least I am curious about it.
> ...



1. AF that doesn't break when you look at it
2. AF that is not based-upon mid-1980s AF precision and has full ring USM speed


----------



## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Jackson_Bill said:


> I don't have a 5Diii but I've been thinking about it. Is the AF for the Group C lenses really that much better than the 7Ds? It seems like they're cross type, if I'm reading the manual right. As far as 61 vs 19 points are concerned, I'm usually using spot focus in the center (or maybe spot with af point expansion) for anything in motion.



Yes it is better. 

Group C lenses have 41 x-type AF points against the 19 of the 7D. The 19 AF points of the 7D cover roughly the same area of the frame as the 5D3 but the extra AF points of the 5D3 result in better AF performance overall when using the AF expansion mode and even otherwise.


----------



## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> Hypothetically, if a _spectacular_ -- I mean game-changingly better -- APS-C body were offered... That with glass of length X that took shots as well as a great FF camera did with glass of length 1.6X...
> 
> Wouldn't that be a camera worth $3k? Hell,_ $4K?!_ As nuts as that sounds, think of the money saved on buying X length glass instead of 1.6X length.
> 
> ...



Yeah ... hypothetically ... if you wanted to kill off the 1DX with its measly 18.1MP


----------



## RS2021 (Jan 27, 2013)

Of the listed productline, only 7D II is credible. 

The current 7D is ageing and the time is ripe for a newer version. Placing the 5D3 AF system in the new 7D2 would be a no brainer. They are likely to put the WiFi and GPS also on 7D2 from the 6D platform. 

By the time the 7D2 actually materializes, Canon would have extracted what they can out of the marketing from 5D3 and 6D...not that 7D clients would ever view these as overlapping. 

In general, Canon tends to split the techs among bodies (overlapping or not) and then move them across the board.

As for the lenses, 35L II is a possibility. I simply don't see near term 14-24L nor the 100-400L II.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2013)

honsten said:


> Son of a.... Two more bodies with the 18mp sensor until the 7D2 by the sounds of it.



http://www.canonwatch.com/category/rumors/


----------



## J.R. (Jan 27, 2013)

Ray2021 said:


> In general, Canon tends to split the techs among bodies (overlapping or not) and then move them across the board.



But Canon doesn't ... insofar as AF systems go or else even the Rebels would be arriving with the eye-controlled AF of the EOS-3 

Even the 19pt AF of the 7D was and is exclusive to it ... Just sayin


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 27, 2013)

Ray2021 said:


> Of the listed productline, only 7D II is credible.
> 
> The current 7D is ageing and the time is ripe for a newer version. Placing the 5D3 AF system in the new 7D2 would be a no brainer. They are likely to put the WiFi and GPS also on 7D2 from the 6D platform.
> 
> ...



As much as I want wifi and (especially) iPhone liveview on my 5D3, I'm not convinced the new 6D wireless stuff is a shoe-in for all models down the road.

For the 70D, I'd expect wifi for certain. Eventually on the XXXD bodies as well. No brainer.

But I seem to recall that pro-bodies (for now, let's put the 7D2 in that bucket) having such a reliance on magnesium housings that they were problematic from a wireless antenna standpoint. The 6D is much more plastic than magnesium, and that may not just be for cost. The cheaper build decision may also have paved the way for wifi to work effectively.

So if you had to choose wifi _*or*_ better materials for shock resistance and weather sealing -- what would you go with on the 7D2? As much as I want wifi, build quality is paramount to me.

- A


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2013)

FunPhotons said:


> Well that's too bad - no high MP body, but good for my wallet I guess.
> 
> If they release a new 100-400 I'll get it though.



Maybe 7D2 is 32MP, APS-H, 8fps, 5D3 AF, high-quality HD video, Exmor-like low ISO DR new process sensor that also has high ISO DR at least as good as 1DX. 
Well one can sail off into fantasy land. It is a nice place. ;D 
And maybe it is a real place.

10fps,24MP,APS-C,5D3AF, new process sensor is perhaps more likely


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2013)

TrumpetPower! said:


> I don't have a 7D. But what I've heard and read from those who have both it and a 5DIII, even using the same lenses for little birdies when they're distance-limited with both bodies, the 5DIII still beats the 7D. I've heard from more than one person who had both with the intention of using them for different stuff...and who ditched the 7D (either altogether or to pay for another 5DIII).
> 
> Even though the cropped image from the 5DIII doesn't have as many megapickles as the still cropped image from the 7D, the image quality is at least comparable, with the nod perhaps going to the 5DIII. But, more importantly, even though the frame rate is lower for the 5DIII, the autofocus system is so much better that you get a higher percentage of keepers.



I've had both. Not even close to reality. I had to sell my 7D to help fund the 5D3 but I do still miss the extra reach I got. I compared them side by side both under strict lab conditions and shooting birds in the field and the 7D absolutely put more detail on birds when using the same lens on both cams.

And for shooting birds sitting in trees among branches and so on that, along with surfing, was the one place where I didn't find the 5D3 did any better (for most other things the 5D3 AF does seem to do a lot better though).


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2013)

xps said:


> I had an interresting talk with five Japanese tourists at the winners ceremony.
> They had professional Nikon and Canon cameras and told me that Nikon will release a top Crop Camera in spring this year and update their Nikon 100-400 pedant (80-400 or so).
> 
> The Canon 7D2 will be priced much higher than an D300 successor, near the 5D3 .
> ...



Interesting. I mean there is no way those people likely have any inside information whatsoever. That said, those comments sound fairly reasonable all the same.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2013)

J.R. said:


> 20Dave said:
> 
> 
> > xps said:
> ...



-1

the 70D will be for those people and the 7D2 will be the one that crazy delivers but you pay for it a bit more


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2013)

J.R. said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > J.R. said:
> ...



$2500ish and $5500ish are still rather different sums of money!

1DX has a LOT less reach than the 7D

1DX is a giant brick


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 27, 2013)

EOBeav said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > What would be the improvement in a new 50 f/1.4 have over the old one?
> ...



part of the problem is likely the AF design itself too though, it was the first clutched non-ring USM lens.... and also the last.


----------



## hmmm (Jan 27, 2013)

*"*There will be 3 DSLRs launched in 2013, two of them will be “entry level” and one will be “mid level”. The two entry level cameras will *probably* be a new Rebel and a 70D.

The midlevel camera is *probably* the EOS 7D Mark II. This camera will get its own launch festivities sometime in the second half of 2013 we’re told.

...4 new EF lenses will be launched in 2013, there was *no mention of exactly which lenses it would be**"*

*==> This may be reliable source; even so, what has he/she really told us? Specifically? ...not much.* ???


----------



## RS2021 (Jan 27, 2013)

hmmm said:


> This may be reliable source; even so, what has he/she really told us? Specifically? ...not much. ???



That's why this is a rumor site. It gives us something to speculate about.

Also, us expecting a major EF lens release and dSLR body every second sunday is rather laughable.

Also, CR clearly did not consult those Japanese tourists from the earlier post... they clearly have more firmer answers ;D


----------



## ewg963 (Jan 27, 2013)

LuCoOc said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > everything points to a new 100-400L
> ...


+1


----------



## ewg963 (Jan 27, 2013)

Freelancer said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > candyman said:
> ...


+1


----------



## ewg963 (Jan 27, 2013)

ronderick said:


> Let's see... 100-400 f/4-5.6L IS II, 14-24 f/2.8L, and TSE-90 f/2.8L, and TSE-45 f/2.8L.
> 
> That's four, right?


I'm liking the possibilty of a 100-400mm (I'm dreaming again) and the 14-24mm to rival the Nikon's version.


----------



## ewg963 (Jan 27, 2013)

pdirestajr said:


> How about we all just go shoot photographs with the cameras and lenses we have right now, and meet back here in a year! Doesn't look like much of anything interesting will be happening, and to me that's actually fine- I don't have to spend any money for a few minutes!
> 
> The technology is really getting good, upgrades are so minor these days, there's no real excuses left.
> 
> ...


+1


----------



## David Hull (Jan 27, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > The problem is that I can pick up an Olympus E-M5 that beats the iq of any canon APS-c camera and they are supposed to be introducing an even better successor to the E-5 ..... Or I can go Panasonic......or I can go Sony..... Or I can go Nikon.... Canon is now positioned at the bottom of the APS-c world for iq and even micro four thirds is beating it.
> ...



You mean from a hyperbole and BS viewpoint since with the exception of a few very specially concocted test scenarios, the “IQ” of all these cameras, including those from Canon will be indistinguishable.


----------



## tt (Jan 27, 2013)

So for those of us where it isn't obvious what the 4 lenses might be - in decreasing order of likelihood:

1) Non-L 50mm IS f 1.4-1.8 to replace the venerable 50mm f 1.4
- With the pancake 40mm, and the nifty 50mm, do they keep the 50mm as is or make a little refinement to it too? Could they do much for the price?

2-4/5) Successor /replacement to the 85mm f/1.8, 24mm, 28mm, 35mm

?


----------



## sdsr (Jan 27, 2013)

ewg963 said:


> Freelancer said:
> 
> 
> > pedro said:
> ...



Better control of coma would be nice, too.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 27, 2013)

tt said:


> So for those of us where it isn't obvious what the 4 lenses might be - in decreasing order of likelihood:
> 
> 1) Non-L 50mm IS f 1.4-1.8 to replace the venerable 50mm f 1.4
> - With the pancake 40mm, and the nifty 50mm, do they keep the 50mm as is or make a little refinement to it too? Could they do much for the price?
> ...




Again, from a feature set / modernization perspective, the new 50 IS will blow the 50/1.4 out of the water. Better build, better focusing, IS, faster focusing, better fringing, etc. From a pure sharpness and max aperture perspective, the new 50 IS may not offer that much. 

But it will be pricey. I'd guess $700-800 in line with the other new non-L IS primes.

- A


----------



## sdsr (Jan 27, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> It continues to shock me that Canon is top of the line for lenses, AF, and ergonomics (in my opinion), yet it continues to have poor sensors compared to the competition. I don't put too much faith in those DXO scores, but the dynamic range data out there, particularly in low ISO, gives compelling reason that Sony/Nikon sensors are a _solid_ step ahead of Canon's. Heck, in some of these tests we're seeing lower price point sensors beat the Canon counterparts (D600 trumping the 5D3, for instance).



How many of those complaining about Canon's "poor" sensors have done a real world comparison as opposed to reading lab reports? I own a 5DII and a Rebel and recently rented a 5DIII and, together, a 6D and Nikon D600 and spent a few days switching between the D600 and 6D. Not once did I think the image created by the D600 looked better than its 6D counterpart, (I tend to prefer the colours conjured up by Canon, and I'm inclined to attribute the greater sharpness of the Canon photos to the superiority of the Canon lenses, but who knows?), and I found the D600 a pain to use. The Nikon sensor may have superior dynamic range, but I was able to restore detail to blown-out highlights in LR4 at least as well in the 6D as I was in the D600. The D600 may allow for better detail retrieval at the opposite end of the spectrum, but that's not something I tend to do and in the couple of photos I tried the differences struck me as trivial. Others may feel different, depending on how/what they shoot. But I certainly didn't come away from the experience with sensor envy, let alone Nikon lens envy (as for Nikon's ergonomics...); rather, I just bought a 6D. 

(I have no comment on the relative virtues of current crop sensors; I used to own a Pentax K-5, which probably had the best sensor of any crop DSLR, slightly better in low light than that in my Rebel - the trouble is, you have to put up with inferior focusing, generally inferior lenses etc., etc.)


----------



## Radiating (Jan 27, 2013)

Canon Rumors said:


> <div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;\"><glusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=12748\"></glusone></div><div style=\"float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;\"><a href=\"https://twitter.com/share\" class=\"twitter-share-button\" data-count=\"vertical\" data-url=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/?p=12748\">Tweet</a></div>
> <p><strong>What’s coming this year
> 
> 
> ...



Predictions:

100-400mm f/4.0-5/6 IS L - same image quality at f/4.0 as the old 70-200mm f2.8 L IS Classic (better than the current version but worse than the 70-200mm f/2.8 IS)

50mm f/1.8 IS 

35mm 1.4 L II (Sigma beater)

14-24mm f/2.8 L


----------



## dtaylor (Jan 27, 2013)

candyman said:


> It would be nice to have an update on the 50mm f/1.4 - at least I am curious about it.



That lens was updated. Strange though, Canon is stamping "Sigma" on the side ;D


----------



## RS2021 (Jan 27, 2013)

Radiating said:


> Predictions:
> 
> 100-400mm f/4.0-5/6 IS L - same image quality at f/4.0 as the old 70-200mm f2.8 L IS Classic (better than the current version but worse than the 70-200mm f/2.8 IS)
> 
> ...




I can only see the 35L II coming true...the rest is La-La land delirium


----------



## RS2021 (Jan 27, 2013)

dtaylor said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > It would be nice to have an update on the 50mm f/1.4 - at least I am curious about it.
> ...



Get your city water checked...they are putting something in it


----------



## xps (Jan 27, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> xps said:
> 
> 
> > I had an interresting talk with five Japanese tourists at the winners ceremony.
> ...



Well, this forum is contains rumors. 
You are right, no one (or nearly no one) knows, what is fact and what Canon will really do.
But, sometimes you meet persons that live near the factory and know persons that work there (e.g. relatives,.... even if these products they produce are under NDA) or work for an company that delivers something for a new product. Or sometimes you accidently see a new product.... You know, what I mean.
So, if there are some tourists, that are working as photographers for an big japanese magazine, i tend to think, that these persons have more truth in their rumors, than others.


----------



## Jesse (Jan 27, 2013)

Only 4 lenses?

Better include 45mm TS-E L
14-24L
50 1.4 IS


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 28, 2013)

Ray2021 said:


> Radiating said:
> 
> 
> > Predictions:
> ...




Not at all. The new 50 IS is a hammerlock this-year lens. They are knocking those lenses out with regularity now. 

The only question is what the max aperture will be -- 1.8 or 2.0. 

- A


----------



## Sphyn0x (Jan 28, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> Ray2021 said:
> 
> 
> > Radiating said:
> ...



Also price is the question, for me..
It would by nice for about $500


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 28, 2013)

Sphyn0x said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Ray2021 said:
> ...




No such luck. Each of the three other IS refreshes were something like $700-800 at first offering. 

- A


----------



## bestimage (Jan 28, 2013)

hope they use improved sensor also what about fat megapixel camera like rumored 1Dxs or D3


----------



## RS2021 (Jan 28, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> Ray2021 said:
> 
> 
> > Radiating said:
> ...



My comment was limited to 50mm 1.8 with IS he lists...which is still zero chance. The f/2 50mm IS has been long rumored and will not be a huge surprise.


----------



## Wildfire (Jan 28, 2013)

pedro said:


> What would be the improvement in a new 50 f/1.4 have over the old one?
> As an amateur the current lens works pretty well for me. Took a picture just yesterday. Very low light. Only source was a flatscreen. No NR applied.



I've seen about five 50mm 1.4's for sale on the local craigslist recently with broken AF motors.

An update with a true USM motor and better sharpness wide open would be welcome.


----------



## RGomezPhotos (Jan 28, 2013)

I try not to put too much stock into rumors this early in the game. But it's nice to get some kind of idea where things MIGHT go in the year...

2012 was a big year for Canon, so I wouldn't be too surprised if they throttled back a bit for 2013. Let us not forget... The 5D Mark III won camera of the year from several big-name magazines and websites for 2012. The 1DX and 1DC are damn fine cameras. So with that, I'd be fine with Canon releasing some great low and mid-range bodies and some refreshed lenses for 2013. It can't always be high-end every year. I know people want that 'perfect' camera... Which will never exist. 

I am not surprised that the big MP is not on the list. I think it will be announced sometime during the year and will probably be available by spring/summer 2014. The 1DX is a hella of a camera, but not really a 1Ds Mark III replacement. Who needs 12fps for fashion and beauty work.

I think 2014 is going to be a HUGE year for Canon. The big MP camera will be out of the gate first and a few months later, the 5D Mark IV with some tech of the big MP will be out. Canon may have two cameras competing for yearly awards in 2014...


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## x-vision (Jan 28, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> -Jarred- said:
> 
> 
> > Surely they wouldn't price it above the 6D?
> ...



Of course they wouldn't. 

The 7DII will be cheaper than the 6D. That's for sure.

There's a reason the 6D is named '6D': to signify that it is positioned above the 7D.
The marketing message here is that a FF camera is a always a step up from a crop camera, regardless of specs. 

This message is needed to assert the premium-ness of FF; without it, it's hard to charge a (hefty) premium for FF.


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## RS2021 (Jan 28, 2013)

RGomezPhotos said:


> I think 2014 is going to be a HUGE year for Canon. The big MP camera will be out of the gate first and a few months later, the 5D Mark IV with some tech of the big MP will be out. Canon may have two cameras competing for yearly awards in 2014...



I lost you when you said 5D mark iv in 2014... 

So they release 5D3 just in 2012 and you predict a mark 4 in just two years in 2014? Just don't visit Vegas without supervision


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## jasonsim (Jan 28, 2013)

I don't think a 7D II will be cheaper than a 6D. Though I do think it will MSRP for less than the 5D III started out at. My guess is around $2500, if it has 10 FPS and an AF system matching the 5D III's. The 6D remember uses the more consumer grade body; fiberglass-type material. The 7D II should come with a mag-alloy body like the 7D has now. Remember that the 7D MSRP'ed at 1699.00. 

On another note, does anyone think that one of the 4 lenses could be a 135mm f/1.8L? That would really be the only lens I'd be interested in.

Thanks and kind regards,
Jason S.



x-vision said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > -Jarred- said:
> ...


----------



## c.d.embrey (Jan 28, 2013)

x-vision said:


> The 7DII will be cheaper than the 6D. That's for sure ...
> 
> ... This message is needed to assert the premium-ness of FF; without it, it's hard to charge a (hefty) premium for FF.



The 6D is nothing but a FF Rebel (entry level camera), while the 7D is a semi-pro camera several steps removed from a Rebel. I'm sure that there are many people who want/need an APS-C camera, like birders, who will pay extra to get what they want/need.


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## RS2021 (Jan 28, 2013)

jasonsim said:


> On another note, does anyone think that one of the 4 lenses could be a 135mm f/1.8L? That would really be the only lens I'd be interested in.



Hate to be the grinch, but there is no chance....the current 135L is the darling of the community and canon doesn't tinker with things that are doing well. They have other more pressing fish to fry...a long long list of fishes before they get to 135L.


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## J.R. (Jan 28, 2013)

jasonsim said:


> I don't think a 7D II will be cheaper than a 6D. Though I do think it will MSRP for less than the 5D III started out at. My guess is around $2500, if it has 10 FPS and an AF system matching the 5D III's. The 6D remember uses the more consumer grade body; fiberglass-type material. The 7D II should come with a mag-alloy body like the 7D has now. Remember that the 7D MSRP'ed at 1699.00.



IMHO the 7D2 will be cheaper because Canon, being Canon will cripple it. Also, I would guess that there is a prestige issue involved with the naming of the cameras - 1D, 5D, 6D and 7D. 

If Canon specs it the way people want - 1DX AF, 10FPS, 24MP, better sensor, better build, it would end up being a replacement of the 1D-IV which will surely be priced over and above the 5D3 (in the region of 4K+).

I feel that Canon might just dump the 7D series (or make minor upgrades) and come up with a completely new APS-C or APS-H format camera with the 2D/3D/4D "titles" available - The 1D-IV APS-H crowd has been really unhappy when Canon seemingly abandoned the APS-H format - maybe it will be back in a new avatar.


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## x-vision (Jan 28, 2013)

jasonsim said:


> My guess is around $2500, *if it has* 10 FPS and an AF system matching the 5D III's.



Yes ... but it won't.

Like many others, you are expecting the 7D to be a 1DIV replacement - with top-of-the-line AF, 10fps, etc..
Canon might come up with such a camera ... but this won't be the 7DII.

The whole point of 7D-series is to provide advanced specs at an affordable price. 
So, one thing that we can be certain about the 7DII is that the price will remain basically the same. 
This in turn means that the 7DII won't be spec'd much differently than the 7D.
There's only so much that Canon can squeeze into a $1700-1800 camera.

Again, the 7DII won't be a 1DIV replacement. 
It will be a 7D replacement - with a better sensor, tweaked 19-point AF system, silent shutter, etc..
There's going to be a surprise feature of some sorts - like color-based AF tracking or some WiFi gizmo. 
Other than that, though, the 7DII will be a refined version of the 7D.
It won't somehow morph into a 1-series ... at a 4x lower price. 

Anyway. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.


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## -Jarred- (Jan 28, 2013)

x-vision said:


> jasonsim said:
> 
> 
> > My guess is around $2500, *if it has* 10 FPS and an AF system matching the 5D III's.
> ...



This is my theory too. In fact I don't believe they'll even put the WiFi/GPS features in that the 6D got, purely because they'll have to do away with the built in flash - which to date is a FF only thing.

I reckon it'll be similarly priced to the 6D, maybe slightly cheaper with nothing really surprising feature wise - a modest increase in processing, MP count, AF and fps. Perhaps dual card slots.

Happy to be wrong in terms of the specs, would put it out of my pricerange which would be disappointing though.


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## V8Beast (Jan 28, 2013)

What, no 5D4 yet ;D? What a bunch of slackers.


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## Chosenbydestiny (Jan 28, 2013)

c.d.embrey said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > The 7DII will be cheaper than the 6D. That's for sure ...
> ...



Like I've said before, it's nowhere close to a rebel. They'd have to take away the ergonomics, the magnesium body parts that it does have, the top LCD screen, the thumb wheel, adjustable kelvin, AFMA, etc etc. If you've owned a 7D before, it feels very very similar in size and weight. The button layout is more like the 60D, quality of the photos is closer to 5D mark III, and the AF is closer to the 5D mark II. The only ONE feature that it takes from a rebel series is the 1/4000th sec shutter speed, and that is ALL. You'd also have to throw a POS built-in flash to throw it below the pro level. Every other feature is brand new like the way the zoom button works, wifi, and gps. Entry level FF makes more sense as you can see it as a stripped down base model luxury car. But it's very far up from being a rebel.


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## sanj (Jan 28, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



Right

on all

points!


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## adhocphotographer (Jan 28, 2013)

Not regretting getting the 5d mkiii now rather than wait for the 7d mk ii... it will be priced a little above the 6d i think, give people the option ff/specs... just my 2 cent!


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## M.ST (Jan 28, 2013)

Wake up Canon: We will have the 7D Mark II now and not in in a few month.

While the Canon are dreaming from Hollywood (expensive video cameras) Nikon is going to bring a D4X on the market and blow the Canon guys away from the professional sector.


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## J.R. (Jan 28, 2013)

sanj said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > J.R. said:
> ...



My problem with this hypothesis is that the expectations are for a 1D-IV spec camera for $ 2,500. It is just not going to happen. The 1D-IV spec camera is unlikely to be a 7D2. 

I'm expecting only sensor updates to the 7D (maybe 1 stop of DR), WiFi, GPS alongwith minor tweaks on the AF.


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## J.R. (Jan 28, 2013)

M.ST said:


> Wake up Canon: We will have the 7D Mark II now and not in in a few month.
> 
> While the Canon are dreaming from Hollywood (expensive video cameras) Nikon is going to bring a D4X on the market and blow the Canon guys away from the professional sector.



Why can't we keep Nikon out of this? 

Nikon was supposedly blowing Canon out of the professional sector with the d800 - didn't happen. Won't happen with the D4X either.


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## carlosmeldano (Jan 28, 2013)

these are just rumors... just check all the rumors from 2012, mostly the same as this: nothing more than speculation... I don't really understand why this is a CR2...

serious rumors will only surface a few days/weeks before releasing the new camera...


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## Marsu42 (Jan 28, 2013)

carlosmeldano said:


> serious rumors will only surface a few days/weeks before releasing the new camera...



A serious rumor imho isn't a rumor anymore - Canon simply is very secretive and never leaks any information on purpose to generate interest or divert attention from the competition (unlike other large companies), a habit that falls in line with them being a candidate for the "most conservative company of the world" award.


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## carlosmeldano (Jan 28, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> A serious rumor imho isn't a rumor anymore - Canon simply is very secretive and never leaks any information on purpose to generate interest or divert attention from the competition (unlike other large companies), a habit that falls in line with them being a candidate for the "most conservative company of the world" award.



I meant that all rumors leaked more than 1-2 weeks before camera release couldn't be taken seriously.


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## sanj (Jan 28, 2013)

carlosmeldano said:


> these are just rumors... just check all the rumors from 2012, mostly the same as this: nothing more than speculation... I don't really understand why this is a CR2...
> 
> serious rumors will only surface a few days/weeks before releasing the new camera...



my point too!


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## Sith Zombie (Jan 28, 2013)

dilbert said:


> I wonder what Nikon's roadmap is and how their competitive launch will compare to Canon's...



I'm guessing they're competitive will be.... actually competitive.


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## dlleno (Jan 28, 2013)

carlosmeldano said:


> these are just rumors... just check all the rumors from 2012, mostly the same as this: nothing more than speculation... I don't really understand why this is a CR2...
> 
> serious rumors will only surface a few days/weeks before releasing the new camera...



yea its a CR2 because the source is known, not because the known source has guarenteed insider information


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## dlleno (Jan 28, 2013)

20Dave said:


> ... If Canon wants to squeeze money out of a top-of-the-line APS-C camera, my uneducated guess is that it would come in slightly under $2k. I would put the Vegas over/under at $1,899.
> 
> Dave



which is, at this moment, what one can get a 6D for today via amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-20-2-Digital-Camera-3-0-Inch/dp/B009B0MZ8U


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## dlleno (Jan 28, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> I'm not saying the 7D2 is getting two DIGIC chips or the 1DX's dedicated metering system, but I think the AF will be top of the line. It's an action camera, so it needs great AF and they happen to have one ready to go. Further, it will commonize the user experience for shooters who bounce between FF and APS-C bodies.
> - A



7D already has two DIGICs, but no third one dedicated to metering as in the 1DX


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## J.R. (Jan 28, 2013)

dlleno said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not saying the 7D2 is getting two DIGIC chips or the 1DX's dedicated metering system, but I think the AF will be top of the line. It's an action camera, so it needs great AF and they happen to have one ready to go. Further, it will commonize the user experience for shooters who bounce between FF and APS-C bodies.
> ...



+1 

Just to provide more completeness ... the 7D sports DUAL DIGIC-4s as opposed to DUAL DIGIC-5+ processors (for sensor) and one DIGIC 4 processor dedicated exclusively for metering in the 1DX.


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## ahsanford (Jan 28, 2013)

dlleno said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not saying the 7D2 is getting two DIGIC chips or the 1DX's dedicated metering system, but I think the AF will be top of the line. It's an action camera, so it needs great AF and they happen to have one ready to go. Further, it will commonize the user experience for shooters who bounce between FF and APS-C bodies.
> ...



I stand corrected. Thanks. 

Metering has always been a knowledge gap for me. I didn't even know that spot metering only works on the center AF point for all bodies (except for 1-series) until this past summer. I was spot metering off-center AF point faces in backlit situations only to get dark silhouettes, ha. 

I'd give vital organs for that at-AF-point spot metering, but I understand that is one of many things the 1DX's dedicated metering chip does. 

- A


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## Radiating (Jan 28, 2013)

x-vision said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > -Jarred- said:
> ...



Canons latest strategy has been to markup all new products 30% for the first 7 months. I predict the 7d will go for $2000, msrp, and sell for a minimum advertised price of $1800 at launch. Making it cost $100 less than the 6D


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## dlleno (Jan 28, 2013)

J.R. said:


> Just to provide more completeness ... the 7D sports DUAL DIGIC-4s as opposed to DUAL DIGIC-5+ processors (for sensor) and one DIGIC 4 processor dedicated exclusively for metering in the 1DX.



I think we can expect the dual DIGIC architecture of the present 7D to extend into the 7D2. What they do with it is another matter! As I read through the thread I find essentially two 7D2 camps: interestingly enough most seem to use the 6D price point as the point of interest when speculating about the 7D2 price:

Camp cripple says that the 7D2 will represent only incremental improvements to the 7D in both the AF and metering systems. It will have a new sensor but nothing else will be really spectacular about it because 5D3 and 1DX sales ,as well as the FF reputation, must be protected. The 7D2 will be priced at or lower than the 6D because no FF body should ever cost less than even the best crop body, and because cost is always inversely proportional to the integer painted on the outside. The sensor might have better DR than the present crop sensors but it won't threaten any of the FF sensors. 20Dave, J.R., x-vision, to name a few, are in this camp. Variations on this theme include the suggestion that a greater feature set would start to look like a 1D4 successor, in which case it cannot possibly be named '7'.

my observation here is that the 7D itself was disruptive and this discription of the 7D is not. while certainly believable, a 7D2 with the above features would be a enormous yawn. It does, however, fit the more traditionally perceived Canon approach and marketing strategy. 

Camp wow says that Canon wants to continue leading in this segment, and that they will pull out all the stops (bonus quiz question: who can describe the origin of that expression without looking it up?) to produce essentially a 5D3-featured body with 10-ish fps in a 7D style crop body. Price likely to be in between the 6D and the 5D3 because the market will accept a full featured crop body named with a single digit. Not many will care that the flagship crop costs more than a entry level FF, and no one will be confused about the numbers painted on the side. marsu42, k-amps, xps, quasimodo, ahsanford, ray2021, LetTheRightLensin, and some random set of Japanese tourists, are in this camp. 

my observation about camp wow is that such a camera does not necessarily have to be perceiced or positioned as a 1D4 successor. If Canon is really both insistant and succesful in driving the pro wildlife and sport 'togs to the 1DX (and to longer gla$$) , and if the 1DX really does represent the amalgamation of the 1D and 1Ds bodies, AND if APS-H is really dead, THEN you have more room for a 1.6x crop body with some wow, and without confusion as to its positioning. The 7D itself was very disruptive in this regard -- for the first time painting a single digit onto the side of a non-FF body.


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## pierlux (Jan 28, 2013)

Rumorwise, I think we're talking about the wrong camera here. Let's evaluate the information we have. The "very reliable source " says that "There will be 3 DSLRs launched in 2013, two of them will be “entry level” and one will be “mid level”."

Then CR guy comments that "The two entry level cameras will probably be a new Rebel and a 70D... ...The midlevel camera is probably the EOS 7D Mark II"

So, the source is simply stating "2 x entry and 1 x mid", the rest being CR speculation. At least this is the way I understand it. CR guy, can you confirm?

Should this be the case, I respectfully disagree. The two entry level cameras may likely be the T3 (1100D) and T4i (650D) replacements, I wouldn't call a 70D "entry level". I understand the plastic 60D has lowered our expectations, nevertheless I would rather file the xxD line under the "mid level" class of dSLR. Consider many pros have used, and some still use, the 40D, one of the best crop dSLR ever. No, firmly no, "entry level" is not the class to place the 70D in.

Therefore, it is more likely that we'll see the T5(?) (1200D), T5i (700D) and 70D announced in 2013, no 7D mark II for the current year. Note that I would be very happy to be proved wrong by facts, since I'm really wanting the 7D2 to be available the soonest, but I doubt we'll see it delivered before 2014.



xps said:


> I had an interresting talk with five Japanese tourists at the winners ceremony.
> They had professional Nikon and Canon cameras and told me that Nikon will release a top Crop Camera in spring this year and update their Nikon 100-400 pedant (80-400 or so).
> 
> The Canon 7D2 will be priced much higher than an D300 successor, near the 5D3 .
> ...



Makes perfect sense to me, +1 for the Five Japanese Tourists. Canon won't repeat the aberration of placing 4 aps-c cameras in the market, 3 of which having he same sensor, separating the top one from the cheapest by only a few hundred $. That's why they were someways forced to break one of the 60D legs by dropping AFMA and magnesium alloy body. So here's what the possible roadmap may be in 2013 for EOS bodies, assuming the "very reliable source" is correct:

1. The T3 (1100D) replacement with the already overused 18MP sensor, which would be a significant improvement over the current 12 MP one. In this way, Canon would painlessly get rid of the 18 MP sensors they still have in stocks. The T3 was marketed March 2011, its predecessor was June 2008: only two formers don't make a statistic, so the next one (T5, 1200D ?) could be any date.

2. The 70D. It will be likely given back the magnesium alloy body and AFMA, plus all the bells & whistles we've been rumoring about in this thread and before. The major question is about the sensor: will Canon stick again to 18 MP, will they dare shrinking 24MP in an old tech sensor, or will they deliver the rumored new tech sensor with a MP count and a read noise adequate to compete with, or hopefully better, today's aps-c rivals? Let's hope it's the latter.

3. The T5i (700D) with the same sensor as the 70D in a Rebel body, keeping the approx 1-year life cycle typical of the Rebel line.

As concerns the 7D Mark II, my guess is that it will be a pro camera with improved AF over the 7D, an insane 12-14 fps, dual Digic (maybe we'll see the "VI" debut) and all the stuff needed to justify its price which will be close to that of the 5D III, maybe something less (but I wouldn't be much surprised if it is going to be even something more), to be marketed in 2014. Regarding the price, don't forget the 7DII is going to partially fill the gap left by the gone aps-h line.



Don Haines said:


> Right now the sensor is the weak part of the chain, but even so the system beats the competition for my needs.



Totally agreed. But, over time, the weak link in the chain must be reinforced, otherwise the link fails, the chain breaks and the system goes down as a whole. I'm sure there's more than one trick up Canon's sleeve in this respect, the only question is how long will it take to translate into production what R&D is for sure already testing. I would also include the possibility for Canon to pay Sony the royalties and use their patented technology, which doesn't necessarily imply they will pay forever, but only until they can match or surpass the competitors with proprietary tech. Again, the FJT may be right...


----------



## c.d.embrey (Jan 28, 2013)

J.R. said:


> Why can't we keep Nikon out of this?



How about talking about the Panasonic GH3 ??? A M4/3 camera that's gennerating a lot of interest from pros. It has a magnesium wethersealed body for less than $1,300.00  It has 1080/60p 50Mbps IPB and 24p 72Mbps ALL-I video (better video specs than a 5D3  ).

And unlike the Canon 7D2 and the Nikon D4 the GH3 is actually available *NOW*. 

*I just saw this.* A GH3 used on safari http://www.naturalexposures.com/corkboard/testing-panasonics-newest-micro-four-thirds-camera-the-gh3/ Check-out the first photo, this looks like a great birder/nature camera


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## bseitz234 (Jan 28, 2013)

dlleno said:


> and that they will pull out all the stops (bonus quiz question: who can describe the origin of that expression without looking it up?)



I believe it's from pipe organs, if I'm not mistaken?


----------



## dlleno (Jan 28, 2013)

pierlux said:


> ...I'm really wanting the 7D2 to be available the soonest, but I doubt we'll see it delivered before 2014.



that would be sad indeed, and by the time 7D2 emerges, the 7D would be an ancient relic of pre-modern technololgy! 



> As concerns the 7D Mark II, my guess is that it will be a pro camera with improved AF over the 7D, an insane 12-14 fps, dual Digic (maybe we'll see the "VI" debut) and all the stuff needed to justify its price which will be close to that of the 5D III, maybe something less (but I wouldn't be much surprised if it is going to be even something more), to be marketed in 2014. Regarding the price, don't forget the 7DII is going to partially fill the gap left by the gone aps-h line.



fair comments, to be sure; I'll join you in hoping 7D2 comes before 2014, and I'm officially putting you into "camp wow"   You're the only one so far who has suggested, along with me, that the presumed demise of APS-H and the announced amalgamation of 1D and 1Ds into the 1DX creates more "room" for a full featured crop body without confusion as to the numbers painted on the side. I also tend to suggest that those who lean towards the conservative/incremental/yawn approach for the 7D2 may not be noticing that:

1. the third camera in the rumor is refered to as "mid level". What is the mid (price) point between between a rebel and a 1DX? hmm.......its just below that of the 5D3.

2. the 7D intro was distruptive in that it assigned a single digit to a crop body. For me, there is no reason why such a wow crop body could not have a 7 painted on the side.


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## c.d.embrey (Jan 28, 2013)

pierlux said:


> Rumorwise, I think we're talking about the wrong camera here ...
> 
> ... The two entry level cameras may likely be the T3 (1100D) and T4i (650D) replacements, *I wouldn't call a 70D "entry level*".



I agree, the 70D isn't entry level.



> I understand the plastic 60D has lowered our expectations, nevertheless I would rather file the xxD line under the "mid level" class of dSLR. Consider many pros have used, and some still use, the 40D, one of the best crop dSLR ever. No, firmly no, "entry level" is not the class to place the 70D in.



I'm still making $$$ with a 40D and 85mm f/1.8  I had planned to buy an EOS 60D, but then Canon released the POS 60D  , so I passed. I'm hopeing that the 70D will be a worthy replacement for the 40D.


----------



## dlleno (Jan 28, 2013)

bseitz234 said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > and that they will pull out all the stops (bonus quiz question: who can describe the origin of that expression without looking it up?)
> ...



yep! prizes awarded at the door thank-you very much for playing  . more specifically the expression arises from the fact that "pulling out a stop" opens up a particular (and specific) set of pipes to acheive the particular goals of the performer (avoiding jargon here...). pulling out "all" the stops is equivalent to making the organ as loud as physically possible and/or all the voices/pipes/reeds/whatever contributing to the sound.


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## pierlux (Jan 28, 2013)

c.d.embrey said:


> I'm still making $$$ with a 40D and 85mm f/1.8  I had planned to buy an EOS 60D, but then Canon released the POS 60D  , so I passed. I'm hopeing that the 70D will be a worthy replacement for the 40D.


I'm sure it will. But be prepared to unstitch from around as many $$$ as the current 7D...


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## Quasimodo (Jan 28, 2013)

fair comments, to be sure; I'll join you in hoping 7D2 comes before 2014, and I'm officially putting you into "camp wow"   You're the only one so far who has suggested, along with me, that the presumed demise of APS-H and the announced amalgamation of 1D and 1Ds into the 1DX creates more "room" for a full featured crop body without confusion as to the numbers painted on the side. 
[/quote]

Uhhh... page 4 on this thread.. My words were, if not insightful, at the very least the same essence...

"With the APS-H seemingly being dead as far as rumors are concerned, there is a void for those who want excellent IQ and the range given by crop sensors. I am betting the 7D II will kick some serious ass, the price notwithstanding."


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## dlleno (Jan 28, 2013)

to be sure *quasimodo *, insightful indeed my oversight! thanks for the catch! thats three of us thus far


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## Quasimodo (Jan 28, 2013)

dlleno said:


> to be sure *quasimodo * so noted and thanks for the catch! thats three of us thus far



LOL!

But to be serious for a little while. I think this is a valid question. Although Canon officially did not count the 7D as a professional camera it was used by many professionals as a second camera. I have heard virtually no rumors that pulls in the direction of a 1D V, and according to the various pages I read it is sorely missed. I think we are in for a positive surprise (except for price, which I believe will be stiff). I think that it is not impossible that the new 7D II might be a cropped 1Dx, and that the traditional 7D might be replaced by upgraded Rebels...?


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## c.d.embrey (Jan 28, 2013)

pierlux said:


> I'm sure it will. But be prepared to unstitch from around as many $$$ as the current 7D...



After seeing the lack-luster POS 60D. I have my doubts about Canon and the xxD line.

Prices of many cameras will keep climbing, as long as the US Dollar stays depressed. Nothing new here.


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## ahsanford (Jan 28, 2013)

Quasimodo said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > to be sure *quasimodo * so noted and thanks for the catch! thats three of us thus far
> ...



I'd go the other way, actually. I see 1DX as the end-all-be-all for action shooters, so I think that _an even faster burst_ camera based off of APS-H isn't what's missing now. I'm not saying that sports shooters and birders don't miss their APS-H length, but the 1DX greatly improved so many things that _perhaps _the APS-H folks will quiet down some.

As far as those with the budget for the 1DX who feel it is lacking, I keep hearing of studio/landscape shooters who care less about frame rate and much more about even better IQ / DR and many, many, many more megapixels. 

As far as the 7D2 being anything other than APS-C, I'm not hearing a word of it. The 7D is the standard bearer for that sensor-size. The thought of 7D2 having APS-H is simply not going to happen -- the brand is synonymous with APS-C and represents a key part of Canon's strategy:


Tents up the APS-C market into various price points as a sort-of-pro camera.
Serves as the premium option that gets the best APS-C sensors before being disseminated to XXD and XXXD bodies.
Gives Canon the enthusiast market, and justifies the continued production of the more expensive EF-S lenses like the very good 10-22 and 17-55 F/2.8 IS.

Just my two bits. I'd love to see Canon get brave with the 7D2, but too many downstream pieces of their puzzle rely on it having a best-in-class APS-C sensor to hold serve in this market.

- A


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## Marsu42 (Jan 28, 2013)

c.d.embrey said:


> Prices of many cameras will keep climbing, as long as the US Dollar stays depressed. Nothing new here.



Keep your head up, you could do worse - like living in Europe with the current € crisis :-\


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## dlleno (Jan 28, 2013)

the organ pipes are resonating with your reasoning *quasimodo * -- funny: I had typed "junior 1DX" in my previous epistle but then changed it to "5D3 features in a crop body with higher fps". If we accept the premise we have both noticed, then quite a logical conclusion is that 7D2 could very well be a page turner instead of a yawn. All the necessary R&D efforts can be leveraged from other bodies -- only the sensor is apparently changing. Moreover how "7D ish" is that -- to introduce a brand new sensor with such a body? it would make logical and poetic sense, at least to me   lol lol. and don't forget that "mid level" price is, well, half way between Rebel and 1DX..... hmmm..... fingers on the calculator now.... yup thats higher than the 6D.

It should be a walk in the R&D park to borrow the 5D's AF and metering systems, drop into a dual DIGIC<something> architecture of the 7D, and call it something maybe even 7D2. The unanswered question is essentially how much crippling Canon will do in order to protect other FF bodies. 


it will be most interesting to see which camp, the "wow camp" or the "cripple camp" does the snoopy dance when the 7D2 is introduced. 

+ 1 also to *ahsanford * re: positioning and justification of a flagship APS-C body and continuation of the 7D isms that made the original a success.


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## RS2021 (Jan 28, 2013)

My 2 cents:

It will remain APS-C just to maximize reach for teles as 7D has evolved into a semi-pro range especially for wild-life and sports folks...one reason why I think Canon will not go APS-H as this will cut down on reach for these users and also APS-H will generate less sensor units sensor area for price.

As for what sensor tech:

Option 1: Canon may use the same sensor in the 7D2 as in the anticipated full frame high MP sensor (somewhere in the ~36 to 45 MP range, adjusted to APS-C size). If true, this would likely auger a higher price for 7D2 as they can't low ball the price too much in this scenario.

Option 2: Alternatively, they may just use older sensor tech but with all the bells and whistles including superior AF system, build, wifi, gps, multiple card slots etc... or some combo of that. Using the existing sensor tech would probably help keep the price down a bit.

Given 7D branding under 6D, Canon may use the older sensor tech and use the price savings on more updated features and still debut 7D2 around the same price as intro 6D. 

First option is more daring, second one is more safe as they have to keep pricing in mind.

Difficult to say which way Canon will go.


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## dlleno (Jan 28, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> Just my two bits. I'd love to see Canon get brave with the 7D2, but too many downstream pieces of their puzzle rely on it having a best-in-class APS-C sensor to hold serve in this market.
> 
> - A



just thinking about your comment here. yea, even if Canon *could * produce a 7D2 page turner, they probably *wont't * IF the new sensor technology isn't up to it. that may be the gating factor here -- if the 7D2 turns out to be a yawn it may be because they couldn't produce a best-in-class sensor for it.


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## dlleno (Jan 28, 2013)

Ray2021 said:


> Option 1: Canon may use the same sensor in the 7D as in the anticipated full frame high MP sensor


the same sensor technology, I'm sure you mean. yes that would be a worthy competitor, to be sure. If such a pixel density is worthy of a high MP high dollar FF body, then the technology would turn heads as a crop. unfortuantely, the chatter re: a 2013 big MP camera has gone cold, which suggests to me that maybe the sensor isn't ready, and 7D2 will have to use something else...


> Option 2: Alternatively, they may just use the 6D sensor


that would probably be a yawn, i.e. in APS-C form the 6D sensor technology would be only a small improvement over the current 18mp. But you may be right here: Maybe 7D-7D2 will be more like the 5D2-5D3 -- feature set improvments much stronger than the sensor improvements, causing many to scoff and then come back to realize how capable the camera really is. 



> Given 7D branding under 6D, ....



to me it is not a given that 7D branding is "under" 6D at least in price. It is today, thats true, but 7D is just a name, for pete's sake, synonomous with flagship APS-C. If they want to make 'flagship APS-C" a true "mid level" camera then it will be priced above the 6D and outrun the 6D in every way except IQ/ISO on acccount of the FF sensor. 

[/quote]


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## RS2021 (Jan 28, 2013)

Agreed dlleno...plus you got what I meant by 6D sensor....existing 6D-like "tech" with high ISO capabilities but obviously with more pixels.


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## brad-man (Jan 28, 2013)

You guys are bringing me down. While I expect the 70D to be a yawn (souped up T4i w/WiFi & GPS, probably still no AFMA), I would be surprised if Canon _would_ release the 7Dll without new sensor tech. I live in the world where Canon has better tech, they're simply milking the market for what it's worth. If they really don't have the new sensor ready, then it wont come out until the 5DlV, which certainly wont be this year...


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## Quasimodo (Jan 28, 2013)

dlleno said:


> the organ pipes are resonating with your reasoning *quasimodo * -- funny: I had typed "junior 1DX" in my previous epistle but then changed it to "5D3 features in a crop body with higher fps". If we accept the premise we have both noticed, then quite a logical conclusion is that 7D2 could very well be a page turner instead of a yawn. All the necessary R&D efforts can be leveraged from other bodies -- only the sensor is apparently changing. Moreover how "7D ish" is that -- to introduce a brand new sensor with such a body? it would make logical and poetic sense, at least to me   lol lol. and don't forget that "mid level" price is, well, half way between Rebel and 1DX..... hmmm..... fingers on the calculator now.... yup thats higher than the 6D.
> 
> It should be a walk in the R&D park to borrow the 5D's AF and metering systems, drop into a dual DIGIC<something> architecture of the 7D, and call it something maybe even 7D2. The unanswered question is essentially how much crippling Canon will do in order to protect other FF bodies.
> 
> ...



LOL. and to Ahsanford. I never intended to say that it will be in a APS-H size.. I do not believe that. I believe that we just might see a killer 7D which will de facto make the demand for the APS-H non-existant..?


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## pdirestajr (Jan 28, 2013)

Lots of discussions on if APS-H is really dead, or has an opening to return...

I always wonder about this because didn't Canon put an H marking on their new fish-eye zoom? Kinda odd to add for just one discontinued camera isn't it?


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## Marsu42 (Jan 28, 2013)

pdirestajr said:


> Lots of discussions on if APS-H is really dead, or has an opening to return...



Why would Canon do that - it's loose-loose for them, they'd sell less expensive tele lenes for the well-off people while loosing ef-s compatibility and alienating the 7d crowd who bought a 17-55 or 10-22 lens.

The only reason for Canon would be if the competition went ahead and many Canon users would consider switching, but in Nikon-land it's also either 1.5x crop or ff.


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## Quasimodo (Jan 28, 2013)

pdirestajr said:


> Lots of discussions on if APS-H is really dead, or has an opening to return...
> 
> I always wonder about this because didn't Canon put an H marking on their new fish-eye zoom? Kinda odd to add for just one discontinued camera isn't it?



Interesting point, as the 8-15 is from 2011, i.e. quite new and a while after the release of the 1D iv... Hmmm... However, there is virtually no mention of a whift of a rumor concerning the release of a APS-H sensor, at least not that I have seen.


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## RS2021 (Jan 28, 2013)

For those of you wishing for the return of APS-H in the 7D2:

APS-H was a stop-gap. 

Remember the "frankenmonster" FD autofocus lens that Canon made before the arrival of EF bodies? See pic below. That was a stop-gap. 

Just the same, APS-H was a stop-gap... till full frame sensors became more affordable. Now that FF has acheived more market penetration and come down in price since early years, the stop-gap will die.

So let's move on. 
APS-H is dead.
Dead, dead, dead.


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## wickidwombat (Jan 29, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> pdirestajr said:
> 
> 
> > Lots of discussions on if APS-H is really dead, or has an opening to return...
> ...



because no competition have anything like APS-H, the image quality drop vs full frame is minimal unlike the wonderfull APS-C.

I really believe canon missed an opportunity to storm the mirrorless market, they should have made the EOS M APS-H and the EF-M mount APS-H with a crop mode for use of EF-S lenses. 
Instead the horse took off last and is still running the wrong direction!

Basically anything APS-C can do APS-H can do better apply any tech increase to both formats and APS-H will win hands down all the time the marginal additional crop factor of APS-C is not enough to counter the significant benefits of the larger format. And same goes FF is better than both although the gap between FF and APS-H is not as vast as to APS-C

I believe the 7DII will still be APS-C but I think it would be awesome if they made it APS-H with an APS-C crop mode that came with an increase FPS say 6 FPS APS-H and 9 FPS APS-C crop mode then people wont cry about not being able to use the EF-S lenses. If it used a digic 5+ like the 5Dmk3 and had say a 22MP APS-H sensor it would give about a 13MP APS-C image in crop mode with 5Dmk3 build quality. forget the gimmicks like flippy screens, wifi and gps leave all that for the other models, and of course dual card slots and a revamped AF system.

something like this would be a perfect complement to my 5Dmk3

However what is concernng by canons own naming convention the 7D2 sits behind the 6D... and since the 6D is somewhat underwhelming in everything other than the sensor department I am afraid the 7D2 will be another dropped ball.


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## garyknrd (Jan 29, 2013)

Ray2021 said:


> For those of you wishing for the return of APS-H in the 7D2:
> 
> APS-H was a stop-gap.
> 
> ...



What you talking about Willis....


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## rpt (Jan 29, 2013)

garyknrd said:


> Ray2021 said:
> 
> 
> > For those of you wishing for the return of APS-H in the 7D2:
> ...


Wow! Somebody other than me using that line! Way to go!
Well, that said, the facial expression needs to made with that line for the full impact...
:


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## gravy (Jan 29, 2013)

They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!


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## wickidwombat (Jan 29, 2013)

gravy said:


> They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!



last time i suggested that I got clubbed like a baby seal by the crop club...


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## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2013)

Ray2021 said:


> As for what sensor tech:
> 
> Option 1: Canon may use the same sensor in the 7D2 as in the anticipated full frame high MP sensor (somewhere in the ~36 to 45 MP range, adjusted to APS-C size). If true, this would likely auger a higher price for 7D2 as they can't low ball the price too much in this scenario.
> 
> ...




I think most of us on this forum would bet large sums of money that the 7D2 will have a brand spanking new APS-C sensor. Option 2 would absolutely blow my mind if it happened, esp. considering that the 7D AF is fairly well regarded for its place in the big SLR food chain.

(In hindsight, Option 2 would have been an _killer_ mid-lifecycle upgrade to the 5D2. Imagine a better AF system dropped into the 5D2 in mid-2010. I think it would have been a hit -- call it a 5D(2.5).)

Canon may nerf (or, as some have said 'cripple') the 7D2 in some aspect, but as the flagship APS-C offering, they can't keep recycling that 18 MP sensor any longer. Isn't that the same kind of sensor quality as the EOS-M and T4i / 650D? 

I just don't see that happening. My guess is new APS-C and more pixels. 24 MP is the APS-C top of the line for resolution right now, right? Isn't that what Sony and Nikon are offering now? Seems a reasonable number to start with. 

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2013)

Quasimodo said:


> LOL. and to Ahsanford. I never intended to say that it will be in a APS-H size.. I do not believe that. I believe that we just might see a killer 7D which will de facto make the demand for the APS-H non-existant..?



Understood -- apologies, I misread you.

I guess I never really saw the 7D as a threat to the 1D4 users. Ferrari owners would generally not get jealous of a Camaro, even if it is shinier, newer, etc.  (just making a point, pls don't start a car flame war)

I just see the 1DX ending any and all sports/action complaints for... at least a little while. 

- A


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## gravy (Jan 29, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> gravy said:
> 
> 
> > They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!
> ...



maybe this time they wake up and smell the 70D and won't be so hostile.


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## V8Beast (Jan 29, 2013)

If APS-H is dead, them I'm a proud necrophiliac ;D


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## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2013)

V8Beast said:


> If APS-H is dead, them I'm a proud necrophiliac ;D



Well, I guess that makes you 1.3x bigger than the rest of the necros out there. 

(Had to.)

- A


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## Brock (Jan 29, 2013)

gravy said:


> They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!



I don't think that would be a good idea. There's a big price gap between them.

Many people buy the X0D model because the grip on the Rebels are too small & don't want/care about long photo bursts or full weather sealing.

If Canon doesn't have the X0D, then people will migrate to the Nikon D7x00, because it will fulfill their needs for less $$$.


I think Canon might increase the 7D II's price (like they did the 5D Mark III) because It is a pro camera.

But I don't think their Rebel & X0D will change much in price, because they compete in a very price sensitive market against Nikon (who could be considered to have the better cameras in that segment currently, especially if the D7000 successor comes out soon).


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## dave (Jan 29, 2013)

I am pretty sure the term 'roadmap' is not strictly speaking semantically spot on and has created a confusing thread, which I have conveniently summarised thus:

In all reality Canon is following what might be termed the 'mapless, whimsical camera and lens development path', which would be great except the lanterns lighting their way are all powered by nasty third party and counterfeit batteries so they keep going out. On the rare occasion when their lanterns do work the dynamic range of the product developers is such that they immediately become blinded and any logical thoughts (i.e. the 'actual' roadmap) are immediately blown out (sorry).

Subsequently this has the net effect of leaving them (Canon) absolutely bereft when it comes to find the right proverbial tails (7D2, 14-24) to pin on their donkeys (us). The problem is by the time they finally have the tails the donkeys might have all run away (to Nikon, Sony or Kodak).

See! Not roadmap...narrative.


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## fonts (Jan 29, 2013)

Brock said:


> gravy said:
> 
> 
> > They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!
> ...


 
I think opposite. Think of it like this (there's also a recent thread with this view) - If Canon stopped milking, and started Under Promise - Over Deliver they would DOMINATE the market. It is NOT a good thing when people can't tell the difference between Nikon or Canon...It means no one is revolutionizing. No one is going out of there way to make and BREAK expectations. 

If they kept the Rebel line (which is always increasing in price for some reason....) took out the X0D line. That would be all they need to start taking over when it comes to first buyers. 

They also need to start standardizing their sensors, AF, etc. Start BRANDING the company's name. Stop making spin offs of "that" sensor/AF/etc. and start making it throughout the lineup. It wastes people's time, and R&D money when they come out with a different versions to sidetrack the product. 

Basically what I'm trying to get at is this. 

4 camera Line Up:
Rebel
5D/6D Equiv
7D Equiv
1D Equiv


That might be hard to grasp because then you get into pricing confusion. That mainly will come because of how APS-C and FF are at the moment. The rebel will have APS-C to keep price down for sure. Then Everything else should have FF, because by now they should already have been able to figure out how to only use the center to give the reach of crop by now (I mean seriously). 

People are probably wondering than how will they be different if they all have the same sensor and AF.

3 main areas:
1 - CPU power & efficiency + buffer
2 - Shutter Speed
3 - MP 

So as you go up the line Rebel - 7D equiv - 5/6D equiv - 1D equiv then all three areas will get better. At this point people will ask well I don't want 50000000000+ MP because noise will increase and buffer speed will decrease....well honestly this isn't how you should be looking at it. Instead ask why hasn't there been any push to technology so that as MP increases noise and buffer doesn't get worse. Seriously the price for these equipments as much and even MORE than the best computer you can build out there. 

Pricing - This is difficult, but if either Canon or Nikon started this revolutionary way of business than they can ultimately (well somewhat as consumers are the ones that determine the price) price it to whatever they want. But let's just give reasonable prices.

The Rebel needs to be able to have an easy point of entrance. Right now the current T4i sells for about $800 (way overpriced for what you get, that's why people still buy the T3i over it) so I say for something that will actually be VERY good and revolutionary than at most $800 for it would be better for that camera. 7D equiv $1400; 5/6D equiv $2600; 1D equiv $6000

The pricing section isn't what I'm trying to get at, just giving numbers because I know people will ask.

Now when it comes to system updates (ie Mark ii) then things will make A LOT more sense since most of the technology is shared in the lineup. So as they improve on sensors and AF (and not incremental, but actual improvements) then all they have to do is refresh the lineup. 


This will make Canon the best ever, period. Customers will know that this company won't chimp off and let them down, Canon will stop wasting money of random incremental and sidetracked R&D and FOCUS on actual "Evolution & Revlotion" products. There will be a clear difference of what you would get with Canon vs another brand.

Thanks,
Jonathan Liz-Fonts


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## wickidwombat (Jan 29, 2013)

dave said:


> I am pretty sure the term 'roadmap' is not strictly speaking semantically spot on and has created a confusing thread, which I have conveniently summarised thus:
> 
> In all reality Canon is following what might be termed the 'mapless, whimsical camera and lens development path', which would be great except the lanterns lighting their way are all powered by nasty third party and counterfeit batteries so they keep going out. On the rare occasion when their lanterns do work the dynamic range of the product developers is such that they immediately become blinded and any logical thoughts (i.e. the 'actual' roadmap) are immediately blown out (sorry).
> 
> ...



Actually since they just keep recycling good ol 18MP croppy they are more akin to stuck on a roundabout going
around and around and around and around....  the map blew out the window a few towns back...


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## dave (Jan 29, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> dave said:
> 
> 
> > I am pretty sure the term 'roadmap' is not strictly speaking semantically spot on and has created a confusing thread, which I have conveniently summarised thus:
> ...



My story was good, but I think you're right... the map's probably being used as coaster in one of the pubs in Port Hedland..


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## dave (Jan 29, 2013)

fonts said:


> Brock said:
> 
> 
> > gravy said:
> ...



Jonathan, I am sure that you a way smarter than I am, but I am struggling to follow.

I am getting that the Canon should make 4 cameras at any time and they should all be the same, except for price and name.


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## Marsu42 (Jan 29, 2013)

wickidwombat said:


> because no competition have anything like APS-H, the image quality drop vs full frame is minimal unlike the wonderfull APS-C.



Well, I understand your point and I'd probably even buy an enthusiast aps-h camera - but as discussed all over expanding the dslr market share doesn't seem to be Canon thinking, for them it's most important to grab as much money as they can get away with while while keeping a strong position in the pro/cps-segment - and the latter is mostly ff :-\


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## xps (Jan 29, 2013)

*New PowerShots for CP+, no DSLRs.......*

_*New PowerShots for CP+, no DSLRs.*_



_*200-400 4.0 L *_
Who has the money to pay for it....


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## xps (Jan 29, 2013)

Does anybody know, if Canon will allow AF with lenses that hat an beginning aperture of 8.0? Or will this not be happening?

Is Nikon allowing it?


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## J.R. (Jan 29, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Well, I understand your point and I'd probably even buy an enthusiast aps-h camera - but as discussed all over expanding the dslr market share doesn't seem to be Canon thinking,* for them it's most important to grab as much money as they can get away with while while keeping a strong position in the pro/cps-segment* - and the latter is mostly ff :-\



I wish Canon had done that by not discontinuing the 1D-IV :'(


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## Brock (Jan 29, 2013)

fonts said:


> Brock said:
> 
> 
> > gravy said:
> ...



Making full frame sensors is expensive, that's why they cost so much.

They can make over quadruple the number or APS-C sensors out of the same wafer size as full frame. e.g. 60D APS-C = 14.9x22.3mm = 332.27sq mm. 5D III FF = 24.0x36.0mm = 864 sq mm. A 300mm wafer has about 70,500 sq mm.

With the number of cameras they sell, I think it's very unlikely they would see any cost savings with a single sensor design. More likely they would lose a lot of money.

Which makes it very unlikely they would ever drop their prices as low as you're suggesting. Realistically they'll stay the same or see a slight bump. They'll likely try to keep the Rebel & X0D series close to the D5X00 & D7X00 series (if not slightly lower, which they traditionally are by about $100).

If they eliminated the X0D model, they are also eliminating any (semi)affordable DSLR with a good grip.

A Rebel for $600-950 vs a 7D II for $1700-2200 is a huge price difference. It leaves a big gap for Nikon to fill w/ a $1200-1500 D7000 successor (which has a good grip & feels more solid than a Rebel).

If they don't have a 70D they have no D7000 successor equivalent & they lose all customers who think the Rebel is too small but don't want to spend 140+% more $$$ (than a X0D or D7X00) to get in a 7D successor.

If they really wanted to stand out from the pack, what they could do is increase the size of their APS-C. All APS-C sensor are not the same size despite sharing the same name. Canon could make a APS-C sensor that, while still smaller than full frame, is larger than Nikons 1.52X Crop factor. That's the only way I can see them drawing out 500nm sensors. That would create a problem w/ the current crop sensor lenses causing vignetting however, so that's unlikely to ever happen.

Unless, they could just have the camera shoot a lower megapixel crop of the larger APS-C if it detects a older crop lens is attached, and if a full frame or newer crop lens is attached then it shoots the full sensor at a higher MegaPixel. That would be interesting. Dollars to donuts it won't happen though.


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## fonts (Jan 29, 2013)

> Making full frame sensors is expensive, that's why they cost so much.
> 
> They can make over quadruple the number or APS-C sensors out of the same wafer size as full frame. e.g. 60D APS-C = 14.9x22.3mm = 332.27sq mm. 5D III FF = 24.0x36.0mm = 864 sq mm. A 300mm wafer has about 70,500 sq mm.
> 
> ...



I know where you're getting at, but like I said the price section isn't what I was trying to get at. It's the way of thinking that I am trying to show you. Most of us are use to seeing a Rebel , then a X0D, then XD, all having incremental upgrades. But instead of that, why not have a Rebel line that isn't crippled. See you're scared that Nikon will have an advantage of that middle price ground with something "similar". But think about it, no one will have anything similar to this idea I'm trying to get. This is why it's bad for us consumers when we can't tell the difference between Nikon and Canon products, no one is revolutionizing the market.

The cost of FF is expensive, but that doesn't necessarily make a product expensive. The cost of R&D and these random sidetracked "improvements" to the cameras they're doing is what's really making a camera expensive. Instead of wasting time and money with "middle ground" products they will focus on just 4 line product, which in itself will lower costs. Also think about it, if Canon stopped crippling their lines, how would you think of Canon now? A lot more people would get Canon, which in turns means Canon makes more of the Rebels which will keep cost per item lower. 

Rebel would be the best entry camera, not being crippled in sensor and AF designs, but being limited by the 3 main areas I suggested. All the way up 1D which would have the MP needed for product shooters but not sacrifice the speed and noise quality everyone else would need. Think about it, people shouldn't have to choose anymore, the only reason we do is because no one is bringing or creating anything new to the plate.

You get me?


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## TrumpetPower! (Jan 29, 2013)

fonts said:


> I know where you're getting at, but like I said the price section isn't what I was trying to get at.



You've actually put the cart before the horse. Apple has clearly shown that price strategy comes first when figuring out model differentiation.

Take a look at any of their product lines, and you'll see they almost always have four different models with fairly uniform spacing of the price between each. They then have a similar type of overlap between product lines -- MacBook Air => MacBook Pro => iMac => Mac Pro.

The net result is that it's easy for a customer to mentally slot into a broad category of desired product, easy to figure out which model fits the budget, and then -- and this is key -- the price points are closely spaced enough for the customer to reasonably imagine stretching a bit and buying the next model up.

That is, if you want to have a laptop and your budget is $1,000, the MacBook Air is right there for you. But just $100 more gets you twice the flash ("disk") storage, an easy upsell. Or $1,200 gets you the entry-level MacBook Pro, with much more impressive specs and not all that much more heft.

Viewed from that perspective, Canon's got it pretty close to right. The Rebel line needs some cleanup; they should ditch the T3 and drop the price of the T2i and do a bit of rounding; I'd put it at T2i @ $600 => T3i @ $700 => T4i @ $1000. When the T5i comes out, price it at $1,100 and drop the prices of the others by $100, retire the T2i, and continue that pattern. I'd drop the 60D, call the rumored 70D an 8D instead and price it at $1200. The 7DII keeps the 7D price at $1600 (and the 7D goes away), then the 6D @ $2100, drop the 5DII when stock runs out, and the pro-level stuff they can price however they want. You're then left with three Rebels and three xD models for the masses, with gradual price jumps along the way. Funky branding and pricing is probably a bit of a plus for the top end, which is why the huge leaps and lack of naming consistency isn't a problem for the 5DIII and 1Dx and anything else (like the super megapickle studio camera) that might come along.

In tabular form:

T2i : $600
T3i : $700
T4i : $1000
----------------
8D : $1200
7D : $1600
6D : $2100
----------------
(pro stuff however it falls out)

Cheers,

b&


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## fonts (Jan 29, 2013)

TrumpetPower! said:


> fonts said:
> 
> 
> > I know where you're getting at, but like I said the price section isn't what I was trying to get at.
> ...



I guess I see what you're saying, but still I'm not here for the pricing. If you feel like that's more important than ok...but what I'm trying to get at is the product line. And just because there's only 4 product lines doesn't mean they can't sell the last generations product line to fall in between the price gaps, but again pricing isn't my main subject.

You still need the "cart" even with a "horse"......


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## dlleno (Jan 29, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > because no competition have anything like APS-H, the image quality drop vs full frame is minimal unlike the wonderfull APS-C.
> ...



+1 on these points. The money grab occured by moving the pro sports/wildlife segment away from H and into FF plus longer gla$$. to the extent that this remains Canon strategy, there is room to address the enthusiast/sports/wildlife segment with a full featured APS-C camera priced between the 6D and 5D3 (lets remind ourselves that the CR2 rumor mentioned a 'mid level' camera). The attractivness of such a high priced APS-C camera is worth debating, to be sure, i.e will Canon produce a worthy sensor.


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## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2013)

dlleno said:


> +1 on these points. The money grab occured by moving the pro sports/wildlife segment away from H and into FF plus longer gla$$. to the extent that this remains Canon strategy, there is room to address the enthusiast/sports/wildlife segment with a full featured APS-C camera priced between the 6D and 5D3 (lets remind ourselves that the CR2 rumor mentioned a 'mid level' camera). The attractivness of such a high priced APS-C camera is worth debating, to be sure, i.e will Canon produce a worthy sensor.



You are spot on.

Of course, Canon can move us to larger sensors _only so much_ because of that glass reason you mention. 

For instance, let's say Canon offered an 'affordable medium format rig' and tried to do to veteran FF shooters what the 6D was meant to do to veteran APS-C shooters. Even if the camera's quality / value proposition was solid, verteran FF shooters might not be so excited to buy something longer -- say a 70-200 -- just to have the length we need to cover a family birthday. And hell, we'd need the Sigma 200-500 monster just to shoot a school play. 

I know they wouldn't be physically compatible with the mount if they actually did this, but I think you gather what I mean. Bigger sensors = bigger/pricier glass to do the same focal length job as before.

So bigger sensors are great, but if they force us to buy fundamentally pricier glass to do what we could before with less expensive glass, some folks might not be so enthused.

Hence, APS-C will be here for a very long time.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2013)

TrumpetPower! said:


> fonts said:
> 
> 
> > I know where you're getting at, but like I said the price section isn't what I was trying to get at.
> ...



+10 if I could. Very insightful.

I think we all, as users, wrestle with the premise that Canon has so many product lines -- see chart graphic from http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/rumours.html (also attached at bottom)

It's fun for us to make sweeping simplifications to portfolios -- and what you propose is indeed the Apple go-to gameplan.

But with camera owners, I'm sure there is a Canon marketing guy who could bury us with market segmentation data to imply that each and every SLR bucket they offer is vital, financially viable, and useful.

Think of each of these segments and what differentiates them:


XXXXD: Cost cost cost. "I cannot buy a film camera any longer", "my high school student son wants to pick up photography", etc.



XXXD: A few key consumer level niceties: touch screen, swivel screen, so-so AF for video. "I just want it to take nice pictures, and occasionally a video", "Do I need a longer lens? Maybe...", etc.



XXD: A thicker grip (I hear this often), top LCD for quick adjustments, less reliance on auto modes. "I've been shooting a while now", "I felt limited by my older camera", etc.



7D: Serious shooters and some pros who see APS-C as a strength and not a liability. Better build. Fast burst. "This is the best tool for birding", "I need high burst rate to cover sports for the local paper", "I really like tweaking my lens AF", etc.



6D: Serious shooters who _do_ see APS-C as a liability but don't want to pay for all the bells and whistles. "I have always wanted a FF camera", "It's not the highest end, but you should _see _the pictures I get with this."



5D3: Pros, videographers, well-funded enthusiasts, etc. who will pay for IQ and build quality but do not require the apocalypse proof build, cost or size of 1D bodies. "It's solid and doesn't let me down", "Shoosh, we're filming right now", "[Quiet shutter noise at wedding]", etc.



1DX: Those people. "Welcome to my studio", "We're invading Asia. Thought I'd tag along", "It was this or the obsidian steering wheel for my yacht" :



Personally, I see the XXD group as the one that makes the least sense -- not in terms of value but in terms of overlap with other offerings. I personally jumped from a T1i to a 5D3 this past year (file me under enthusiast) and found the jump to be an easy one. I already had a bunch of lenses and only the 10-22 was a casualty of the move.

But I'm sure we all have our thoughts on segmentation.

- A


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## dlleno (Jan 29, 2013)

yea I can only imagine the cost of a medium format equivalent of the 600mm F/4. not just the focal length changes to something close to 800, but the image circle is now proportionally larger as well (so the glass elements themselves are larger and most costly to produce), not to mention the optical requirements to deal with the higher resolution. the beast would be $100k for petes sake. 

Not many medium formatters shoot wildlife, lol  , but that does illustrate the cost benefits of a C lens --


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## Athlon (Jan 29, 2013)

Nobody's cheering for the upcoming EOS M?
I wasn't really turned off by the slow AF that was pointed out by reviewers, but if that's addressed in the next iteration (and that'll prolly be the biggest improvement), I'll surely buy it.


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## Quasimodo (Jan 29, 2013)

Athlon said:


> Nobody's cheering for the upcoming EOS M?
> I wasn't really turned off by the slow AF that was pointed out by reviewers, but if that's addressed in the next iteration (and that'll prolly be the biggest improvement), I'll surely buy it.



Give me an optical vf and I will buy it!


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## wickidwombat (Jan 29, 2013)

Quasimodo said:


> Athlon said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody's cheering for the upcoming EOS M?
> ...



what I have discovered that is bugging me most about the M right now is no way of attaching an intervalometer!
i dont really care about optical VF on this camera or even the af speed doesnt bug me but I want to use it mainly for timelapse  roll on a stable ML release hopefully that will unleash the power


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## fonts (Jan 30, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> TrumpetPower! said:
> 
> 
> > fonts said:
> ...



Yes someone probably would show that how things are setup it will show that they make profit...but that's a given. They are milking the products which in turn give us either the same or a very very small step towards new technology. But what I'm proposing is another way of thinking, and in a sense it's how Apple is but I don't want to associate it with Apple because of the negative psychology that it can impose with certain consumers.


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## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2013)

fonts said:


> Yes someone probably would show that how things are setup it will show that they make profit...but that's a given. They are milking the products which in turn give us either the same or a very very small step towards new technology. But what I'm proposing is another way of thinking, and in a sense it's how Apple is but I don't want to associate it with Apple because of the negative psychology that it can impose with certain consumers.



Agree again, but Apple wasn't the market leader when their great innovation model kicked in. They said they would chase blue water innovations through 'user needs' rather than 'market expectations'. That distinction is important.

Canon will never do that in an most areas b/c that's not what people expect of a leading camera company. There are expectations of use across a number of segments, so the needs of segment A drive the needs of segment B. Canon's rather vanilla (but capable) entry into mirrorless shows this -- they went for a straightforward smaller camera based on technology they know tons about (APS-C), with menus, interface etc. borrowed from other Canon offerings. None of us should have been surprised by that.

But now look at the Apple-like blue water innovation entry Canon dropped earlier this month, the Powershot N:

http://photorumors.com/2013/01/07/canon-announced-powershot-n-elph-130is-a2600-a1400-compact-cameras/

It's not going to rock the world of an SLR shooter, but I challenge anyone to tell me:


What photography market segment does it go in?
Who is the target demographic?
What do you compare this to?

And there you have Canon, in one smaller camera, being a little brave. It's not going to change our world, but where there are no expectations, interesting products can arise. Sadly, this is Canon's very limited sliver of opportunity on the 'where the hell did that come from?' innovation front.

- A


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## fonts (Jan 30, 2013)

ahsanford said:


> fonts said:
> 
> 
> > Yes someone probably would show that how things are setup it will show that they make profit...but that's a given. They are milking the products which in turn give us either the same or a very very small step towards new technology. But what I'm proposing is another way of thinking, and in a sense it's how Apple is but I don't want to associate it with Apple because of the negative psychology that it can impose with certain consumers.
> ...



True, but that is why they need to do something different. You're also right on this being their opportunity, and honestly I think their in the BIGGEST point in their timeline to decide whether they will lead by a large margin or be muddied down with the rest. Canon is huge, and they sell (from what I can remember reading) the most but we're no longer in an age where we can say well "Buying Nikon/Canon will be better" even Sony (I should say definitely) is starting to creep up into that conversation, and given the way things are, they MIGHT pass it. I might not saying Canon is dieing or whatever, that isn't what I'm getting at. I just wish that a leading company will start loving what they make, and actually lead by revolution and not by how big their margins are. Yes they are a company...but not all companies operate on only making the biggest profit. (not pointing to you, just expressing my thoughts)


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## dave (Jan 30, 2013)

fonts said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > fonts said:
> ...



I don't think you give them enough credit.

Personally I feel Canon is pretty much better sensors away from being easily ahead.

I prefer:

- Their lenses (IQ)
- Their variety and range
- Their ergonomics (and LCD's on the DSLR's)
- The latest autofocus technology
- Their service and support
- Their reliability

Lets look at some absolute benchmarks they have laid out this last year or so:

- 24-70mmL ii
- the 500mm and 600mm version ii's
- the autofocus in the 1D X and 5D 3

I know people often sook about Canon's lack of a killer ultra wide zoom, but I rate the 14L and 17 TS-E as fantastic lenses.

Yes, their sensor tech could be improved but most other things are pretty rosy!


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## fonts (Jan 30, 2013)

> I don't think you give them enough credit.
> 
> Personally I feel Canon is pretty much better sensors away from being easily ahead.
> 
> ...



I do give them credit. Even though I don't own the AF of 1Dx/5D3 I know it's the best on the market. I also do love their lenses. I'm not trying to say they are a bad company or are going to die. I'm just trying to get to a new way of thinking. 

Idk I feel like I'm repeating myself too much :/ Ill back down as it seems that I'm failing at portraying my vision.


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## dave (Jan 30, 2013)

fonts said:


> > I don't think you give them enough credit.
> >
> > Personally I feel Canon is pretty much better sensors away from being easily ahead.
> >
> ...



I'm not being critical of you , it's just I imagine that being a camera company (even a good one) and trying to please everyone is impossible. I think one of the biggest issues for most people (e.g. me) is how much the technology they desire will actually cost them. I'd prefer to pay a bit less...but then I'd just buy more :


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## Brock (Jan 30, 2013)

fonts said:


> > Making full frame sensors is expensive, that's why they cost so much.
> >
> > They can make over quadruple the number or APS-C sensors out of the same wafer size as full frame. e.g. 60D APS-C = 14.9x22.3mm = 332.27sq mm. 5D III FF = 24.0x36.0mm = 864 sq mm. A 300mm wafer has about 70,500 sq mm.
> >
> ...



There's a limit to volume savings. Canon is only able to fab X amount of sensors. If they can sell them all for $200-800 but they sell them for $50-200 instead there's no benefit, just loss.

There's also the issue of pixel size. If they put FF sensors into APS-C cameras & just cripple it with firmware, it's not just the cost of the FF sensor they're losing, it's the megapixel race. FF sensors have much larger pixel sizes, bigger microlenses for better high ISO performance. But that also means if you used the same design on an APS-C camera you'd end up w/ a 6ish MP camera which consumers would look at as if Canon is nuts, trying to rip them off, is 1/4 the resolution of Nikon's APS-C.

Hackers would love it I'm sure. They'd likely find a way to activate the whole sensor.

Canon's current R&D method is working for the most part, they're just dragging their feet switching to a smaller fab; because they already own their own 500nm. The rest of their tech is evolving fine though. Autofocus (sensitivity, accuracy, recognition, & prediction), video, touch screen, & color accuracy are all areas they've stayed ahead of Nikon.

I understand you'd like to see generational leaps closer to what you see in the computer industry, but with Cameras they can't use the same model. Their material costs are higher & their volume is lower.




TrumpetPower! said:


> fonts said:
> 
> 
> > I know where you're getting at, but like I said the price section isn't what I was trying to get at.
> ...



While I agree with the reasoning behind your argument for the most part, I think raising the price of a rebel to $1,100 is a bit much, considering the D5X00 launches at less than $900. 


One of the reasons Canon continue to outsell Nikons is price. They usually launch very close in price, but then Canon drops their price in 3 months & then again in 6; making them the cheaper alternative. The fact they can do this while still making their cameras in Japan (as opposed to China like Nikon) is impressive in itself, imo.


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## fonts (Jan 30, 2013)

> There's a limit to volume savings. Canon is only able to fab X amount of sensors. If they can sell them all for $200-800 but they sell them for $50-200 instead there's no benefit, just loss.
> 
> There's also the issue of pixel size. If they put FF sensors into APS-C cameras & just cripple it with firmware, it's not just the cost of the FF sensor they're losing, it's the megapixel race. FF sensors have much larger pixel sizes, bigger microlenses for better high ISO performance. But that also means if you used the same design on an APS-C camera you'd end up w/ a 6ish MP camera which consumers would look at as if Canon is nuts, trying to rip them off, is 1/4 the resolution of Nikon's APS-C.
> 
> ...



Of course the Rebel line should be a crop sensor to save money. But anything after that it should be FF which can then turn into APS-H/C so that users that want to you it for reach they can. Most of the drawbacks associate with that is because we are still seeing the same technology of sensors but with this drive set of making the best than technology will improve to the point where it would minimize or wipe the current negatives to it. 

And crippling firmware is the opposite of where I'm getting at. As you would get higher up the line the things that would change are processor power/efficiency, MP, and Shutter (FPS, etc)


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## dlleno (Jan 30, 2013)

fonts said:


> ...They are milking the products which in turn give us either the same or a very very small step towards new technology.


 
or, the incremental or small steps forward are a reflection of their real technology and mfg capabilities


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## dlleno (Jan 30, 2013)

someone mentioned that Canon could do something bold and tool up with the largest possible APS-C sensor that would accept an APS-C lens, in order to squeeze every possible bit of IQ. Sort of a "get as close to H" as possible. 

While the motivation for this is admirable, and conceivably there may very well be some largish C sensor size that would still provide all the various geometries in the mirror box required to accept the C lens mount. I rather suspect, however, that Canon has boxed themselves out of such a possibility due to the existing (and expanding) APS-C lenses which, by virtue of their 1.6x design point, do not have sufficient image circle IQ to support anything larger. for example, as cool as it would be to have the 10-22 suddenly turn into a 14-32 FF equivalent instead of the present 16-35, I wonder what the edges would look like...


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## iP337 (Feb 3, 2013)

Here is what I expect for Canon's near future lineup:
[list type=decimal]
[*]EOS-Rebel T3i $500
[*]EOS-M $800
[*]EOS-Rebel T4i $800
[*]EOS-100D(M2) $1000
[*]EOS-10D(Rebel T5i) $1000
[*]EOS-8D(70D) $1500
[*]EOS-9D $1500 (Pro APS-C or Full Frame EOS-M)
[*]EOS-6D $2000
[*]EOS-7D $2500
[*]EOS-7D C $3000(7D/5D body with C100 sensor)
[*]EOS-5D $3500
[*]EOS-3D $4500(40+ MP in 1Dx body)
[*]EOS-1D X $6500
[*]EOS-1D C $12000
[/list]

What do you guys think? I think it would clean stuff up quite nicely then they could just start adding new marks to new models, I also think it gives multiple choices in the same price ranges and they would like it to keep higher prices bodies from slipping


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## dave (Feb 3, 2013)

When was the last time an integrated grip body was $4500?

With the new tech it would be an about-face from existing pricing trends.



iP337 said:


> Here is what I expect for Canon's near future lineup:
> [list type=decimal]
> [*]EOS-Rebel T3i $500
> [*]EOS-M $800
> ...


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## iP337 (Feb 3, 2013)

dave said:


> When was the last time an integrated grip body was $4500?
> 
> With the new tech it would be an about-face from existing pricing trends.



Ah, I guess you're right. It doesn't necessarily need an integrated grip but I think I remember the 1D MarkIV hitting that MSRP before being discontinued and I assume it will priced above the 5D yet still have to compete with Nikon's $3000 high megapixel camera so I figured what better way than to give it a higher grade feel but pixels that small and a resolution that high I doubt Image Quality and Shoot Features would be close enough to 1D X's price range. 

Hmm the more I talk about this the more I think it'll end up being something like a 5D3 body with just a new 40+MP sensor for $4000 like a "4D" or "5D3s" lol. Hey, h.265 just got ok'd too and they promise 4k with it so maybe that's what Canon is waiting for; a 5D3 with a 44MP sensor and 4K H.265 video with 4fps bursts and a 4" LCD screen called the EOS-4D LOL Japan would hate it ;-P


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