# Bad Photography Rant



## distant.star (Jul 19, 2013)

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I know there are charlatans with cameras all over the place. And I know this isn't a forum for ranting about bad "photographers," but let this be a caution that if you don't have definite skills (and most here certainly DO) that it's not nice to take money from people for bad pictures.

Recently a member of my family I haven't seen in several years gave me a CD full of jpg images taken by a "professional" photographer. This person was paid $100 for two hours work taking pictures of two teen-age daughters and a couple of family portrait shots out on a seashore location. She dumped all the image files on a CD and gave them to my family member. She had been "recommended" by a hair dresser my aunt uses. Looking at the photographer's Web site she indicates she went to art schools and shot for magazines for several years. I wasn't exactly sure what my aunt wanted when she handed me the CD and asked me to "develop" the pictures and select the best 10 for printing.

Overall, the images are awful. Out of focus, grainy, even badly tilted horizons. The photographer used a Nikon D800 with a Tamron 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 lens. A little research suggests it is an inexpensive lens that has a reputation for generating noise on its own. The shoot day turned cloudy with a breeze and misty rain. Setting were typically ISO 2000 around f/4.5 to 5.6. Flying hair can be a good effect, yet this photographer made no attempt not to have it flying across their faces. There are dogs in some pictures (on laps, being held, etc.) and they look scared -- a look I've never seen in a dog's eyes. I was angry when I looked at the pictures and realized she took money from my aunt for this. She even had the audacity to include a document releasing the images for print -- but reassuring that she retained all rights.

When I talked with my aunt she finally admitted she was deeply disappointed with the pictures. She thought perhaps she may be wrong and the pictures really were good, but she wanted me to see them. I had to confirm for her that bad pictures are simply bad pictures. I did soften it by suggesting maybe the photographer was trying for a "soft focus" look with the girls. Also, maybe the tilted horizons were purposed to add "drama." I told her there wasn't much I was going to be able to do but that I would pick the best 10 and have them printed by a good printer.

I cleaned up the files as best I could -- sharpening, noise reduction, horizon straightening, etc. The lens even had mustache distortion that had to be corrected! Then I sent them off to Bay Photo for printing on metallic paper. I'm hoping for the best.

Sorry for the big rant, but bad photography is unfair, and it makes me angry. Not only is the $100 (plus cost for printing) gone, but the expectation of great pictures of cherished family members has also been stolen. The kids and their parents don't live on the seashore, and they can't be reassembled for a do over.

I've often encouraged inexperienced photographers here to take opportunities given -- but only with the explicit understanding that clients know what they can expect. If you're going to present yourself as a seasoned professional, you must produce professional results!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 19, 2013)

Unfortunately, there are a ton of self proclaimed professionals out there. Some of them have talent, and some don't. There are also some larger photo studios that fall in the same category.

What can I say... A person who pays $100 for a session is usually not going to get the same results as they would from a top notch photographer, and should expect to get the kind of images you described. People want to believe that they will get the same quality for a much lower price, it just doesn't happen. Its no different than sending money to Nigeria in order to retrieve millions of dollars held in your name, some people talk themselves into believing.

I see people advertising all the time on our local craigslist, even posting horrible quality images as proof of their expertise. I doubt if they would even recognize quality work.

Finding the right photographer is something that takes some effort and research, as well as deciding just how important the occasion is and how much you are willing to pay.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 19, 2013)

You get what you pay for.


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## Drizzt321 (Jul 19, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> You get what you pay for.



That's unfortunately somewhat what I was thinking when I read this. At the same time, you're right. There are far too many people with a fancy camera who feel they can take photos, get paid, and do as little work as possible (sounds like she shot and burned to CD there on the spot, and did nothing else). While I sympathize that it's a highly competitive space and people need to eat, there's still a certain minimum amount of quality/value that needs to be delivered and one should not be trying to make a living at it without being able to meet those.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 19, 2013)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> What can I say... A person who pays $100 for a session is usually not going to get the same results as they would from a top notch photographer, and should expect to get the kind of images you described. People want to believe that they will get the same quality for a much lower price, it just doesn't happen. Its no different than sending money to Nigeria in order to retrieve millions of dollars held in your name, some people talk themselves into believing.
> 
> I see people advertising all the time on our local craigslist, even posting horrible quality images as proof of their expertise. I doubt if they would even recognize quality work.
> 
> Finding the right photographer is something that takes some effort and research, as well as deciding just how important the occasion is and how much you are willing to pay.



I'm sorry for the situation in which your aunt found herself, but unfortunately, I have to agree with the above sentiment. You generally get what you pay for, and $100 for a 2-hr shoot and digital copies of the images is dirt cheap, actually cheaper than dirt cheap. 

A few years ago we went to Martha's Vineyard with our eldest daughter (our only child at the time, she was 18 months old), and booked a ~2 hr shoot with a photographer whom I'd researched. The weather ended up mirroring your aunt's - overcast and breezy initially, then drizzle which became light rain. She shot along the beach and by the lighthouse first, and once the rain started she moved us to the veranda of the hotel. We got many excellent shots from the session. For comparison, we paid $500 for the session and another $300 for the full res digital copies with rights.


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## Harry Muff (Jul 19, 2013)

"Professional" just means that someone gets paid for what they do, it doesn't mean they are any good at it. 

Can we have a look at the photos?


To be fair, $100 is peanuts, but if you accept a job then you should give it your best.


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## JPAZ (Jul 19, 2013)

There are some very skillful working folks out there who do the school photos, etc. But I've seen some truly marginal to awful shots of newborns, graduations, and family events. Having a couple of lenses and a camera body might be the tools one needs to call themselves professional, but some semblance of skill is also required.

Hey, if someone has a scalpel (and a really good scalpel), would you let them take out your appendix just because they have the best tools? : Or would you rather have someone with lesser tools who knows how to do it?


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## Skulker (Jul 19, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> You get what you pay for.



I'm not at all sure you do always get what you pay for, but I am sure you seldom get better than you paid for.

It's a shame the OP's aunt is unhappy, clearly she expected decent shots for her money. And she should of got them. Unfortunately a lot of people would be happy with poor quality shots and would not know the difference.


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## Dylan777 (Jul 20, 2013)

@ OP - any photos as s sample? I want to see it beacuse I after 6yrs in college, I don't make $100/hr. I can see my new carreer here


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## Menace (Jul 20, 2013)

$100 is way too cheap for a two hour session - but I do feel sorry for your aunt.

Personally, I'd be embarrassed to hand over sub par photos to a client even if I was shooting for a charity and giving my time and effort for free. I take pride in my work and have a (good) reputation to maintain - shoddy work is a no no! 

I'm sure your aunty will do plenty of research before hiring her next photographer. Thanks for sharing the experience though.


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## dirtcastle (Jul 20, 2013)

An uneducated customer is destined to get ripped off.


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## LarryC (Jul 20, 2013)

It's not just photographers. I have to agree with the poster above that you do NOT always get what you pay and only but rarely get more than what you pay for. It may be a little harsh, but I have little sympathy for people who hire any sort of professional trade person, be it photographer, decorator, hair stylist or any other "skill" professional without knowing the quality of the work that person can produce only to find out the "friend of a friends' hairstylist" turns out to be a hack. It does not matter what they charge or what their credentials are, it matters that you take the time to find out they can deliver a satisfactory quality product.


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## Zv (Jul 20, 2013)

That sucks. And it's not like you can get a refund. 

All this is doing is devaluing the industry. Diluting it with subpar quality and charging what is really a pittance does nobody any good. You should leave some comments on her website. Word of mouth is a powerful thing. You've already told everyone around you. She won't last long. 

It angers the hell outta me that I can't get any clients even though I would bend over backwards delivering the highest quality images I could. Then only take payment once the client is 100% satisfied.


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## DJD (Jul 20, 2013)

The portrait as envisioned by the pigeon when he commissioned the work...







The portrait as delivered by the hipster street photographer claiming to be a portrait artist. 

Just a little humor.
Cheers,
DJD


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## nsurg (Jul 20, 2013)

This stuff drives me nuts too.
I have a work colleague who on his first week of a new job showed up and literally removed the currently hanging art (very high quality, expensive stuff) and hung up his own photography sh** on the wall. Exclusively landscapes, and lovely places--but very pixelated, blurry photos with poor WB and oversaturated, even by an amateur's standards. I suppose his skill set is being able to pay for the vacation to the lovely location, pay for a midrange slr and kit lens handheld, and enough motivation to print the stuff. Then he went on to take photos of local areas (he had just moved to this job) which to him were probably interesting but to anyone else are not even worthy of a second glance. Also hung up. He then asked a coffee shop if he could hang up some photos and was so brash as to make his own handouts for his "gallery debut" as he called it, and encouraged all his work colleagues to attend. I live in a very high-end art community, and it was embarrassing.
It turns out his arrogance didn't end there... sigh. I guess I prefer some humility. It turns out his photography would be one of the least annoying things about him.


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## fugu82 (Jul 20, 2013)

Sad to say, JDJ, but your deliberate attempt at bad photography is actually kinda cool. The sad, hazy life of Columba livia.


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## jhaces (Jul 20, 2013)

DJD said:


> The portrait as delivered by the hipster street photographer claiming to be a portrait artist.



Antonin Kratochvil would have something to say about that!


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## distant.star (Jul 20, 2013)

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I appreciate the comments. Not looking for sympathy or solutions. It's just a cathartic thing for me.

As for the "get what you pay for" I agree with that, but it's beside the point. My aunt doesn't know enough about photography to know if $100 was a good or bad deal. Her hopes could have been raised just as high by an amateur who claimed to be a great photographer and showed up with pro looking equipment and a dominant attitude.

I just feel bad that anyone gave her reason to have high expectations and then dashed them. I guess I'd be a little more outraged if she had paid $1000 instead of $100, but the money isn't the issue.

As for seeing the pictures as someone asked, that would not be professional of me. But thanks for asking.


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## Tabor Warren Photography (Jul 20, 2013)

distant.star said:


> .
> As for seeing the pictures as someone asked, that would not be professional of me. But thanks for asking.



Kudos to you. I was wondering how you would handle that. 

I had a similar experience to your Aunt and it bothered me to the extreme that now I am a wedding and portrait photographer vowing to not let that happen to any of my family, friends, and now, clients. I too take great pride in my work and am always improving. I probably should have just vented years ago. lol

Cheers,
-Tabor


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## distant.star (Jul 20, 2013)

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Good for you, Tabor. That makes me feel better!




Tabor Warren Photography said:


> distant.star said:
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## Don Haines (Jul 20, 2013)

There is a wonderful statement..... "self evaluation is fraught with peril" I teach canoeing in my spare time.... You would not believe the number of "experts" who have not learned basic skills. Photography is no different.

When evaluating yourself, you need to compare yourself to the right people. If I compare myself to most friends, then I am a wonderful and skilled photographer. If I compare myself to the people on this forum, I have a lot to learn. As a "professional", this person should be comparing the self to other professionals, hanging around with them, and learning.


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## Don Haines (Jul 20, 2013)

Tabor Warren Photography said:


> distant.star said:
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I have been asked (by friends) to photograph weddings, and said "NO!, I shoot wildlife.... I would suck at weddings"... and then asked the bride how she would feel if after the wedding shoot she found out half the pictures were of squirrels and ducks..... Hire me and that's what you will get....

It's not enough to get a good photographer, you need to find a good photographer for the subject matter.


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## Tabor Warren Photography (Jul 20, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> There is a wonderful statement..... "self evaluation is fraught with peril" I teach canoeing in my spare time.... You would not believe the number of "experts" who have not learned basic skills. Photography is no different.
> 
> When evaluating yourself, you need to compare yourself to the right people. If I compare myself to most friends, then I am a wonderful and skilled photographer. If I compare myself to the people on this forum, I have a lot to learn. As a "professional", this person should be comparing the self to other professionals, hanging around with them, and learning.



SO TRUE!

I often find myself comparing the works from my business to others in various cities nearby. Often, it's easy to criticize someone else's images, (and sometimes the photo is just bad). Just as I feel good about myself, I come on here or view the works of some of my favorite modern day wedding photographers AND I'm humbled again. Still, we all have to learn at some point, but it was almost two years before I really began to charge for my services. Even at the first wedding I was asked to shoot, I was hesitant and mentioned my limitations, but hey, I did my best, gained more wedding gigs from it, and off I went.

Peace,
-Tabor


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## tiger82 (Jul 20, 2013)

distant.star said:


> .
> 
> Looking at the photographer's Web site she indicates she went to art schools and shot for magazines for several years. I wasn't exactly sure what my aunt wanted when she handed me the CD and asked me to "develop" the pictures and select the best 10 for printing.



Can you share the website link?


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## J.R. (Jul 20, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> There is a wonderful statement..... "self evaluation is fraught with peril" I teach canoeing in my spare time.... You would not believe the number of "experts" who have not learned basic skills. Photography is no different.
> 
> When evaluating yourself, you need to compare yourself to the right people. If I compare myself to most friends, then I am a wonderful and skilled photographer. If I compare myself to the people on this forum, I have a lot to learn. As a "professional", this person should be comparing the self to other professionals, hanging around with them, and learning.



Top Post!


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## Daniel Flather (Jul 20, 2013)

Dylan777 said:


> @ OP - any photos as s sample? I want to see it beacuse I after 6yrs in college, I don't make $100/hr. I can see my new carreer here



The Op's photog did not earn $100 an hour either. 100/2=50 the last time I checked, also factor in any travel costs and time if any. I'm not defending the OP's photog in any way!


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## LewisShermer (Jul 21, 2013)

How do we know if we're good photographers or not? I hate charging for shooting anything which is why I'll never be a professional outside of the place where I work (where I'm actually a professional photographer) Weird. Who can judge us and how much we're worth?


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## m (Jul 21, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> Who can judge us and how much we're worth?



Those who we take the images for.


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## GuyF (Jul 21, 2013)

I live right next to a shopping centre and often see some "professional" with a setup consisting of a few boxes and cushions for the subject to sit on. They're armed with an entry-level DSLR and kit lens stuck on a small tripod (hey! they've got a _tripod_, how pro is that!!). I suppose they're just maximising profits. There is a board with example shots too - you know the type, bland images of kids against a white background. Honestly, it's just a conveyor belt of mediocrity. Plus they appear to charge about £45 a pop.

I'm not bashing entry level gear (clearly you can take very acceptable images with it) but I feel the end product from these goons is so poor yet people seem to lap it up. Is a grandparent really going to criticise any picture of their beloved progeny?

I know I could do so much better but have to consider if people would actually pay more when they're already happy with, for want of a better word, crap? I suppose you get what you pay for, especially at a makeshift "studio" in a shopping centre.

We should start asking these "professionals" how they achieve such bland results. Maybe stand next to him with a t-shirt that says, "Never pay for crummy photos".

Let the backlash begin!.


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## Hannes (Jul 21, 2013)

Can I suggest this website for a bit of a snigger about bad photography? http://youarenotaphotographer.com/


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## Don Haines (Jul 21, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> How do we know if we're good photographers or not? I hate charging for shooting anything which is why I'll never be a professional outside of the place where I work (where I'm actually a professional photographer) Weird. Who can judge us and how much we're worth?



But even if we are a good photographer at one thing, it does not mean we are good at another. For instance, my work photography is documentation. I have lots of time to set up, to get angles right, to deal with reflections, depth of field, etc etc... I think I am good at it. Put me in a wedding and you are looking at a disaster. I have no idea what the flow should be, everything is too rushed and chaotic for me, I really don't like crowds, I don't know how I would handle the pressure..... it would not be good. (I have a lot of respect for good wedding photographers who can deliver quality out of all that panic)

On the other hand, I can float motionless in a canoe and slowly inch my way towards a turtle, or sit still until the ducks ignore me... a very valuable skill in nature photography yet completely useless for that wedding photographer.

My Dad was a police photographer. His pictures were technically perfect. Perfect exposure and focus. Family pictures looked like mug shots or a police lineup 

General evaluation is not an easy task....


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## MrFotoFool (Jul 21, 2013)

The best way to evaluate a photographer is to look at their website or portfolio. Any smart customer should be able to judge the quality they can expect from that. Customers should also enquire at photo labs or camera stores who those people would recommend. I work at a major Southwest US photo lab and customers regularly ask us for recommendations for a photographer. Since most of the local pros use us, we can recommend two or three names who are ideal for the kind of shoot they are looking for.


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## GuyF (Jul 21, 2013)

Hannes said:


> Can I suggest this website for a bit of a snigger about bad photography? http://youarenotaphotographer.com/



Superb! There is hope for us all!!!


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## Don Haines (Jul 21, 2013)

GuyF said:


> Hannes said:
> 
> 
> > Can I suggest this website for a bit of a snigger about bad photography? http://youarenotaphotographer.com/
> ...



Thanks for the link... the pictures inspire me to burn my copy of photoshop and has given me the confidence to shoot in manual focus with my glasses off...


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## tiger82 (Jul 21, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Thanks for the link... the pictures inspire me to burn my copy of photoshop and has given me the confidence to shoot in manual focus with my glasses off...



LOL, not to mention manual mode!


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## thepancakeman (Jul 21, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > How do we know if we're good photographers or not? I hate charging for shooting anything which is why I'll never be a professional outside of the place where I work (where I'm actually a professional photographer) Weird. Who can judge us and how much we're worth?
> ...



This is so true. Somehow I seem to do a good job with sports photography, but people think that means I can do other types of shooting as well, which is mostly VERY not true. I spent a week in Yellowstone and didn't get a single decent landscape photo. 

My wife does some event photography and I tag along to play backup. We get the pictures back and her's are "Wow, that looks like a great event!" and mine are "Look--people standing around."


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## Jay Khaos (Jul 21, 2013)

My opinion is that photography is an art form like any other—whether you're a graphic design, chef, photographer, painter, etc—what is "good" is subjective. Often times a well-lit, perfectly exposed, nicely framed photo just happens to appeal to no one (even if the photographer loves it), while at the same time, a horrible instagram camera phone shot is made into prints and, receives a million "likes" and ultimately results in a year's salary for the owner...

Same goes for graphic design (that's my full-time job). What I consider great, well-executed, _functional_ design is almost NEVER valued by the client. Because it's not what they had in their head before coming to you, even if it accomplishes their overall message/goal 100x as effectively as their stupid idea. They end up paying a ridiculous amount of money for something that is BS and borderline embarrassing to put my name on.

But I guess my point is, that has taught me that just because I don't value something doesn't mean it's not valuable—and I don't feel as guilty as I did in the beginning. On the same token, I don't feel as defeated when a client dislikes something that I love. I think it's almost necessary to get to that point before you can start defining a style that meets your standards and also appeals to someone who doesn't necessarily care about the factors that define "good" by your peers in whatever art form you're doing.


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## Hannes (Jul 21, 2013)

Jay Khaos said:


> Same goes for graphic design (that's my full-time job). What I consider great, well-executed, _functional_ design is almost NEVER valued by the client. Because it's not what they had in their head before coming to you, even if it accomplishes their overall message/goal 100x as effectively as their stupid idea. They end up paying a ridiculous amount of money for something that is BS and borderline embarrassing to put my name on.


Then you'll be pleased that the guys I linked earlier have a sister site called http://youarenotagraphicdesigner.com/


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## jdramirez (Jul 21, 2013)

She could have looked at a portfolio. Caveat emptor. The buyer has all the power when the market is saturated with purveyors of this craft. 

I may do some sports photography here and there, and that can be a challenge because maybe the kid doesn't play that game or gets hurt early in the game. So your time may be wasted, but I'd rather waste my time than offer a bad product. But she could have done like most people buying images have done for hundreds of years and simply purchased the images she liked that were printed for her. Then she pays $100 for good stuff... and not stuff that could have been done with... well... with inferior equipment. 

It's unfortunate, but she can do what all unsatisfied customers have done for thousands of years... and complain. The CD and the images you provided me are awful. I would like a refund. Maybe she gets it... maybe she doesn't. But it is important for the consumer to speak up.


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## jdramirez (Jul 21, 2013)

there's someone locally who is taking wide angle infinite depth photos and then applying a soften filter around the person and saying that he/she is willing to photograph their senior photos or special events. And the person is undoubtedly using their own kids as models... and these kids are not model level... and I'm not trying to be mean, because we all have to start somewhere, but this person is not only jumping the gun... they are jumping at On (for on your mark...)


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## Menace (Jul 22, 2013)

Hannes said:


> Can I suggest this website for a bit of a snigger about bad photography? http://youarenotaphotographer.com/



There is hope for me yet!


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## LewisShermer (Jul 23, 2013)

I hate hate hate hate people that do exactly what I'm going to do next and obviously some bad karma is coming my way for doing this but...

I really really really worry sometimes about the standard of my photography and I get all nervous before shoots and worry if I'm really worth the modest price I sometimes charge for weddings and model shoots (free for friends, £200 for friends of friends, £400 for people I don't really know). I know a lot of people will have a go at me for "degrading the industry" but I'd rather help people out when they're not the most well off rather than lining my own pockets... It also gets me out of buying a wedding present.

With that said about my own feelings of photographic inadequacy I then come across this: http://www.yourclassicmoments.co.uk/

That makes me feel that I'm actually pretty ok: www.lewismaxwell.co.uk


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## jdramirez (Jul 23, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> With that said about my own feelings of photographic inadequacy I then come across this: http://www.yourclassicmoments.co.uk/
> 
> That makes me feel that I'm actually pretty ok: www.lewismaxwell.co.uk



I concur with your assessment of your classic moments.


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## Jay Khaos (Jul 23, 2013)

Hannes said:


> Jay Khaos said:
> 
> 
> > Same goes for graphic design (that's my full-time job). What I consider great, well-executed, _functional_ design is almost NEVER valued by the client. Because it's not what they had in their head before coming to you, even if it accomplishes their overall message/goal 100x as effectively as their stupid idea. They end up paying a ridiculous amount of money for something that is BS and borderline embarrassing to put my name on.
> ...



LOL.. I saw that a long time ago but had forgotten about it. This one's especially nice.


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## cayenne (Jul 23, 2013)

Folks, I think this 1st video (in a series definitely WORTH watching), pretty much explains it all, when you need to know what it takes to be a professional photographer:

MWAC Attack-Episode 1: The Camera


Remember, if you wanna be a "Pro", make sure and use the "P" setting on your camera, as that THAT is the professional setting on your cameras.

Of course, most all of the quality folks here on the list knows this already.



cayenne

ps. Do make sure and give this whole episode a watch, and the next ones are pretty 'informative' too.


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## Don Haines (Jul 23, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> LewisShermer said:
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> > With that said about my own feelings of photographic inadequacy I then come across this: http://www.yourclassicmoments.co.uk/
> ...



Are you sure that someone didn't hack into the website and insert those pictures to drive away customers?


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## Don Haines (Jul 23, 2013)

cayenne said:


> Folks, I think this 1st video (in a series definitely WORTH watching), pretty much explains it all, when you need to know what it takes to be a professional photographer:
> 
> MWAC Attack-Episode 1: The Camera
> 
> ...



She does not know enough to realize how little she knows....

P.S. the AUTO setting on the dial is for taking pictures of cars......


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## LewisShermer (Jul 23, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > Folks, I think this 1st video (in a series definitely WORTH watching), pretty much explains it all, when you need to know what it takes to be a professional photographer:
> ...



Is she trolling?? I think she is... she must be... mustn't she??? maybe the American humour is a lot more subtle than us Brits give it credit for? Have the Americans been taking the piss out of us all this time?


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## cayenne (Jul 23, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > Folks, I think this 1st video (in a series definitely WORTH watching), pretty much explains it all, when you need to know what it takes to be a professional photographer:
> ...



Well, don't stop at episode 1. I've always been a bit afraid of posing, and well, Missy just tells how easy it can be!!

MWAC Attack- Episode 2: Family Posing That's REAL

The next one is on accessorizing...and now I know how important it is for a professional photographer to have their camera strap match their photo bag.

No wonder I've never felt the confidence to ask for the big dollars!! I just did NOT look the part!!!

C


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## Don Haines (Jul 23, 2013)

One of the things that gets me is people posting shots like this one and then goin on about how beautiful and majestic the eagle was as it gracefully soared above the field.

(The eagle is the tiny speck in the middle of the picture.... good luck identifying it  )


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## thepancakeman (Jul 23, 2013)

cayenne said:


> Don Haines said:
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Missy MWAC’s (Mom With A Camera) real identity is Cheri Frost from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Missy MWAC’s (MWACAttack) very fast grown internet fame came from a series of four videos that lightly made fun of stay at home mothers that think they are photographers just because they own a higher end camera.


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## LewisShermer (Jul 23, 2013)

thepancakeman said:


> cayenne said:
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Not only was she taking the piss out of us, she was bullying us too (

http://socialposer.com/social-media-bullying/


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## cayenne (Jul 23, 2013)

thepancakeman said:


> cayenne said:
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> > Don Haines said:
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Say what you will, but I am looking forward to winding my way through the informational videos till I can get to the wedding and senior ones...those look amazing!!

C


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## magic koala (Jul 23, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> jdramirez said:
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Truly frightening photography. Surely this is not a serious website.


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## Don Haines (Jul 23, 2013)

Interestingly enough, there is an add shown in this thread.... It shows a silver adaptor from one thread size to another with a blue background. The picture is not in focus and the image is very noisy..... you can take better pictures with a camera phone...

Perhaps this shows how rampant bad photography is...


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## Drizzt321 (Jul 23, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Interestingly enough, there is an add shown in this thread.... It shows a silver adaptor from one thread size to another with a blue background. The picture is not in focus and the image is very noisy..... you can take better pictures with a camera phone...
> 
> Perhaps this shows how rampant bad photography is...



Leaving aside the focus, I'm wondering if some of that is due to craptastic nature of GIFs with their very limited color palette available.


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## Don Haines (Jul 23, 2013)

Drizzt321 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Interestingly enough, there is an add shown in this thread.... It shows a silver adaptor from one thread size to another with a blue background. The picture is not in focus and the image is very noisy..... you can take better pictures with a camera phone...
> ...


They don't even bother to save the image in a format where it looks semi-decent....complacency...


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## Drizzt321 (Jul 23, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Drizzt321 said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



No, most likely it's because it has the widest possible compatibility and is likely a holdover from waaay back in the day in early adserving. Plus, maybe it's the default output for the adserver that's being used, and the advertiser didn't change it. Whatever.


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## papa-razzi (Jul 24, 2013)

Many industries have well known certifications that businesses and/or individuals can obtain that represent a well know standard of skill, knowledge, and capability. For example, in the networking industry Cisco certifications represent a level of accomplishment and competence in certain areas of network administration, security, etc. Employers value these certifications.

I am not aware of something similar in the professional photography industry. If there is, it isn't widely marketed to the point the general public is aware.

For example, if WPPI was able to market a certification program so that those looking for a wedding photographer felt it necessary to find one with this certification to feel comfortable they were getting a true professional, then a lot of the unqualified photographers would be more easily identifed.


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## cayenne (Jul 24, 2013)

papa-razzi said:


> Many industries have well known certifications that businesses and/or individuals can obtain that represent a well know standard of skill, knowledge, and capability. For example, in the networking industry Cisco certifications represent a level of accomplishment and competence in certain areas of network administration, security, etc. Employers value these certifications.
> 
> I am not aware of something similar in the professional photography industry. If there is, it isn't widely marketed to the point the general public is aware.
> 
> For example, if WPPI was able to market a certification program so that those looking for a wedding photographer felt it necessary to find one with this certification to feel comfortable they were getting a true professional, then a lot of the unqualified photographers would be more easily identifed.



In the tech field, the certification is pretty easy...there is generally ONE right way to do things.

I'm not sure how this would work for Photography or other "Artistic" things, where much of the value and appreciation of the final product is *subjective*.

While there are lots of _wrong _answers for photography, as we've seen on this thread and all around us, there is seldom one _right _answer for something, and it is quite difficult to test and certify or license something that doesn't really have one right answer....

C


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## wsmith96 (Jul 24, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> With that said about my own feelings of photographic inadequacy I then come across this: http://www.yourclassicmoments.co.uk/
> 
> That makes me feel that I'm actually pretty ok: www.lewismaxwell.co.uk



I took your experience and decided to visit the classic moments site as well... and I agree with you that it makes me feel better.


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## florianbieler.de (Jul 24, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> With that said about my own feelings of photographic inadequacy I then come across this: http://www.yourclassicmoments.co.uk/



This is... fcuk I can't even find any words, this is practically ONLY point and shoot without any feel for the moment, how people should look on pictures or technical settings of the camera which honestly doesn't even look like its more than a 1000D with kit lens. And that horror for prices like these. No wonder there is no more reference, this is just shameful. Just sayin'.


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## jdramirez (Jul 24, 2013)

papa-razzi said:


> Many industries have well known certifications that businesses and/or individuals can obtain that represent a well know standard of skill, knowledge, and capability. For example, in the networking industry Cisco certifications represent a level of accomplishment and competence in certain areas of network administration, security, etc. Employers value these certifications.
> 
> I am not aware of something similar in the professional photography industry. If there is, it isn't widely marketed to the point the general public is aware.
> 
> For example, if WPPI was able to market a certification program so that those looking for a wedding photographer felt it necessary to find one with this certification to feel comfortable they were getting a true professional, then a lot of the unqualified photographers would be more easily identifed.



You don't need a certification, you show your photos, your portfolio. I'm sure Ansel Adams had to whip out a few images back in the day. Heck... Leonardo Da Vinci probably had to "show" his stuff before getting the sisteen... or however it is spelled.


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## jdramirez (Jul 24, 2013)

cayenne said:


> papa-razzi said:
> 
> 
> > Many industries have well known certifications that businesses and/or individuals can obtain that represent a well know standard of skill, knowledge, and capability. For example, in the networking industry Cisco certifications represent a level of accomplishment and competence in certain areas of network administration, security, etc. Employers value these certifications.
> ...



True... and proficiency with gear doesn't mean you have a good eye to know what MUST be shot. 

I was watching a program about the national geographic photographers and how they just knew when they had to take a shot... and some of the photos are some of the most memorable in recent history. Also... those certifications are just a way for some companies to make money. They are rarely non-profit.


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## jdramirez (Jul 24, 2013)

florianbieler.de said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > With that said about my own feelings of photographic inadequacy I then come across this: http://www.yourclassicmoments.co.uk/
> ...



Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.

H. L. Mencken

I think the site is in Britain... but still... there are some tacky people out there who just don't know "what good is" and consequently keep these people in business. 

At least the images are different... god awful, but different.


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## Grumbaki (Jul 25, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> papa-razzi said:
> 
> 
> > Many industries have well known certifications that businesses and/or individuals can obtain that represent a well know standard of skill, knowledge, and capability. For example, in the networking industry Cisco certifications represent a level of accomplishment and competence in certain areas of network administration, security, etc. Employers value these certifications.
> ...



Sixtine Chapel was Michaelangelo no da Vinci. Just sayin'

You point is fully valid. If I buy a car I do a test drive. It's not the car I'm gonna get but I test the general quality level.
Consummers should always look at references before buying. If they agreed after seeing such a book then it's pure market theory in action. If the book is falsified (work from others) then that's pure fraud and this is actionnable. If they don't ask to look at a portfolio then they can blame themsleves.

Sounds harsh but nannying consumers has to stop somewhere.

PS: for those who speak about certification, there's something like that over here in China. As there can't be purely objective criterions for photography as an art, this is just pure nepotism and/or bribery.


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## jdramirez (Jul 25, 2013)

Grumbaki said:


> Sixtine Chapel was Michaelangelo no da Vinci. Just sayin'



Yeah... Mike had a better portfolio...


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## florianbieler.de (Jul 25, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> florianbieler.de said:
> 
> 
> > LewisShermer said:
> ...



There's a whole lot more on the facebook page, I wonder where he or she got "learned" how to do colorkeys, they make no sense at all, i mean the people black and white and the surroundings in color? It's a shame for the whole professional level of photography.


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## distant.star (Jul 25, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> Grumbaki said:
> 
> 
> > Sixtine Chapel was Michaelangelo no da Vinci. Just sayin'
> ...



Funny thing.... Mike's "portfolio" was in sculpture, not painting. He was essentially a sculptor, not a painter. He mightily resisted doing the Sistine work -- was finally forced to do it for political expediency. And like all of us, he learned a lot!


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## YuengLinger (Jul 25, 2013)

Any photographer fretting about the ocean of bad stuff on the web and locally has too much time on his/her hands.

Do the best restaurants in town pull their hair out because convenience stores sell stale pre-packaged sandwiches?

Photography in the USA is now the #1 home based business. Welcome to the new normal.


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## captainkanji (Jul 25, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> With that said about my own feelings of photographic inadequacy I then come across this: http://www.yourclassicmoments.co.uk/



Wow. Those are not photos I would expect from a professional photographer. Maybe I've been looking at the outstanding work of people on this forum for too long and I'm being too unrealistic about the ability of photographers out there. If I'm hiring a photographer, I expect to get work better than what an amateur like me could do.


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## dryanparker (Jul 25, 2013)

All of the substandard work out there should make those who clearly win on expertise, vision and ability thrilled to know that winning new business should be fish in a barrel.

The problem is you're then tasked with convincing people with no recognition of expertise, vision or ability that it's worth the added cost.

The reality is, as others have alluded to, that there is a market for this stuff. Sad to say, but many people shop on price alone, and in the end, they might actually be happy with the results. They simply don't know the difference, and they probably don't care.

I'd recommend finding a better market!


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## UrbanImages (Jul 25, 2013)

There are many fly by night photographers and even if they went to "school", it doesn't guarantee that they are any good. I'm self taught, started shooting film 20 yrs ago as a teenager and it took a lot of trial and error. i don't profess to be the best however I've learned that creativity, thinking outside the box and the knowledge of your equipment trump all. My ex girlfriend's cousin got TERRIBLE photo's of her wedding, they were using old Rebels with garbage lenses and shooting in preset mode. My business partner's BFF is precisely one these, to the point where we don't allow her to use our studio anymore because we don't want her bad photography associated with us. As far as pricing goes, i have a "friends and family" rate that I use with complicit understanding that they are not to disclose it. It's been successful and has brought us a lot of business at full rate. This economy has turned a lot of hobbyists into "professionals" and it has had negative effects. :-\


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## distant.star (Jul 25, 2013)

YuengLinger said:


> Photography in the USA is now the #1 home based business. Welcome to the new normal.



Is this something you're saying to make a point or is it a fact?

If this is factual, I'd love to know the source for the data.

Thanks.


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## jdramirez (Jul 25, 2013)

distant.star said:


> YuengLinger said:
> 
> 
> > Photography in the USA is now the #1 home based business. Welcome to the new normal.
> ...



don't believe him... it is still prostitution. :/


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## Drizzt321 (Jul 25, 2013)

Well, ya'll can feel a bit better, while the lighting and exposure seem ok (probably choose #4 and #13 lighting settings from the Standard Photographers Handbook </sarcasm>), it's just....no. http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/2013/07/21/alice-in-wonderland/


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## tolusina (Jul 26, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loH7FEsThbw


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## jdramirez (Jul 26, 2013)

tolusina said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loH7FEsThbw



I enjoyed that very much.


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## LewisShermer (Jul 26, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> tolusina said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loH7FEsThbw
> ...



I enjoy hot chicks with big cameras.

I was once at a gig and there was a hot chick shooting with an old medium format hasselblad that looked like she had no idea what she was doing. She was hot.


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## jdramirez (Jul 26, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > tolusina said:
> ...



attractive women doing anything is usually interesting... look at two girls and a cup. if people are willing to watch that...


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## Menace (Jul 26, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > tolusina said:
> ...



I like big chicks and hot cameras too


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## GlassEye (Jul 27, 2013)

OK,
This thread has degraded to the point that ...


I will need to follow it more closely ;D


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## Sith Zombie (Jul 27, 2013)

cayenne said:


> Folks, I think this 1st video (in a series definitely WORTH watching), pretty much explains it all, when you need to know what it takes to be a professional photographer:
> 
> MWAC Attack-Episode 1: The Camera
> 
> ...



... Speechless lol


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## Don Haines (Jul 27, 2013)

Sith Zombie said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > Folks, I think this 1st video (in a series definitely WORTH watching), pretty much explains it all, when you need to know what it takes to be a professional photographer:
> ...


She may know enough about photography to be able to make fun of beginners, but she knows nothing about how to be a professional photographer.

Here's a tip Missy..... As a professional photographer, one of the major requirements is to be able to sell your services and skills to the public. Making fun of them is NOT going to increase your client base.


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## pj1974 (Jul 27, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> Sith Zombie said:
> 
> 
> > cayenne said:
> ...



Oh dear... Deary deary deary me. What a scary thought - she thinks she is a good professional photographer, and gives out advice like: "you don't need to know about exposure or f-stop or shutter speed". "Just let the camera do it all for you, cameras are so smart these days"!

lol!! 

Does Missy even have a portfolio we can critique? I'm glad she's happy with her photography, but I'm 99% sure her photos are not high standard. Pretty much anyone can take a photo and sell it (eg $1 for each photo) - somewhat fulfilling the definition of 'professional' (ie making money from this activity) but that says nothing about the quality.

PJ


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## jdramirez (Jul 27, 2013)

pj1974 said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Sith Zombie said:
> ...



Wow. P... as is pstupid. That video drove my wife and daughter out of the room.


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## Don Haines (Jul 27, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...


She is making fun of people, it isn't real. She is mocking beginners.


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## jdramirez (Jul 27, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > pj1974 said:
> ...



I saw that other people said that... and I'll believe you... but if it wasn't... oh my.


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## Zv (Jul 27, 2013)

jdramirez said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > jdramirez said:
> ...



Wtf! I watched it and as difficult as it was, I actually made it to through the first diabolical episode. Made me want to throw up. It's just her voice, it's so annoying. I'm guessing she is not actually a professional (shudder) photogr.... Yuk I can't even say that word now!


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## rpt (Jul 27, 2013)

I thought it was tongue in cheek...


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## jm977 (Jul 27, 2013)

tolusina said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loH7FEsThbw



Please tell me that Missy is a parody of all the "professionals" out there. There are too many like her out there that we don't need her adding to the mix. What some people will do to get their face on youtube. She won. She got me to look. I just don't know whether to laugh or cry though.


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## jdramirez (Jul 27, 2013)

rpt said:


> I thought it was tongue in cheek...



I'd put 'something' in her mouth... but it would just to keep her from talking.


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## distant.star (Jul 27, 2013)

.
Update:

Prints arrived from Bay Photo, and my Aunt is satisfied with them.

All's well that ends (as this thread probably should).


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## Don Haines (Jul 28, 2013)

distant.star said:


> .
> Update:
> 
> Prints arrived from Bay Photo, and my Aunt is satisfied with them.
> ...


Probably a good thing. BTW, my old camera (Olympus) has an A mode.... I presume it stands for Amateur...


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## oscaroo (Jul 28, 2013)

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/bundeena/beauty-treatments/uber-shots/1024033016

:'(


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## rpt (Jul 28, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> distant.star said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


My AE1 has an A mode. It stands for Awesome!


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 29, 2013)

distant.star said:


> .
> I know there are charlatans with cameras all over the place. And I know this isn't a forum for ranting about bad "photographers," but let this be a caution that if you don't have definite skills (and most here certainly DO) that it's not nice to take money from people for bad pictures.
> 
> Recently a member of my family I haven't seen in several years gave me a CD full of jpg images taken by a "professional" photographer. This person was paid $100 for two hours work taking pictures of two teen-age daughters and a couple of family portrait shots out on a seashore location. She dumped all the image files on a CD and gave them to my family member. She had been "recommended" by a hair dresser my aunt uses. Looking at the photographer's Web site she indicates she went to art schools and shot for magazines for several years. I wasn't exactly sure what my aunt wanted when she handed me the CD and asked me to "develop" the pictures and select the best 10 for printing.
> ...



agreed, that said $100 isn't exactly a lot for two hours of shooting and, if it had been for carefully sorted and processed RAWs which would take hours more to do, it would be insanely cheap

what is bad is that many of that type get more clients and press than some really skilled people with solid equipment, but a lot of it is just how much gumption and what sort of a promoter you are, as with well I guess many things in life


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