# B&H Once again sued for discrimination



## bdeutsch (Feb 27, 2016)

B&H is once again being sued for discriminating against its employees (this time it's for discriminating against its Hispanic employees). http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/27/nyregion/bh-electronics-store-sued-for-discrimination-of-hispanic-workers.html. 

Like most pro and amateur photographers I know, I've been a loyal customer for years. But perhaps it's time we stop giving our money to companies with questionable morals and illegal conduct. 

Deutsch Photography, Inc.: NYC Wedding Photographer | Actor and Corporate Headshots NYC | Family and Baby Portraits


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## R1-7D (Feb 27, 2016)

I have heard bad things about B&H so many times. Where there is smoke there is usually fire...


I've said this a quite a few times on this forum, but it goes double right now for the American's with their high dollar: everyone should really consider shopping at The Camera Store in Calgary, AB Canada. 

They honestly give the best service out of any of the shops I've dealt with, which is pretty much all of the big ones by now. They really go to no end of trouble to help, and I've been a massive pain in the rear on multiple occasions. 

Since there's no duty on camera equipment thanks to NAFTA, might as well take advantage of the low prices while they last.


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## N2itiv (Feb 27, 2016)

I'll take that into consideration, R-1.
For now, though, I think my USD's will go to CPW. Money saved for more needed gear.


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## AlanF (Feb 27, 2016)

Do you shoot first and ask questions afterwards? Where I come from, we assume that someone is considered innocent until proven guilty.


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## Otara (Feb 27, 2016)

The article says they've already been found guilty once. Its only a question of whether they're guilty twice.

Otara


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## beforeEos Camaras (Feb 27, 2016)

I have read the article. sounds like the union using lawsuits for leverage in notations for a contract. as this this issue is only located at one of the 3 warehouses.

I buy at a brick and mortar store and pay full msrp on all my goods that I buy.

so I feel the internet is a fickle place and justice is misplaced in a storm of words and rhetoric. 

lets see what the judge and jury have to say on this matter


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2016)

Otara said:


> The article says they've already been found guilty once.



Where does it say that? It says the previous lawsuit was settled, if you believe that means they were "found guilty," there are serious gaps in your understanding.


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## RGF (Feb 28, 2016)

beforeEos Camaras said:


> I have read the article. sounds like the union using lawsuits for leverage in notations for a contract. as this this issue is only located at one of the 3 warehouses.
> 
> I buy at a brick and mortar store and pay full msrp on all my goods that I buy.
> 
> ...



just because you pay full MSRP (or more correctly MAP) does not mean the store treats its employees right. Nor do internet stores necessarily treat their employees poorly.

Needs to be judged on a case by case basis.


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## Big_Ant_TV_Media (Feb 28, 2016)

QUESTION IS?
WILL ANYBODY HERE REALLY BOYCOTT B&H AND CEASE BUYING FROM THEM AT ALL LIKE THEY SAY AND POST ON FB AND IG?
im due for monopod for my 5d3 and 7d2 too shoot sports with and new camera bag
this new accusation now has be thinking do i give them my business when it comes time too preorder
the 5d4 "whenever that is"


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## beforeEos Camaras (Feb 28, 2016)

RGF said:


> beforeEos Camaras said:
> 
> 
> > I have read the article. sounds like the union using lawsuits for leverage in notations for a contract. as this this issue is only located at one of the 3 warehouses.
> ...



true the store I buy from has 6 employees or 3 in each of the two locations.

I know most by name the store buys direct from canon. yes its pricey but I shop as best I can

at small shops and local shops I don't buy at best buy etc. but I get my needs met


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## Orangutan (Feb 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Otara said:
> 
> 
> > The article says they've already been found guilty once.
> ...



This quote is strongly suggestive of a finding of guilt or an admission of guilt as part of the settlement. I think "already" is justified, based on the article.



> Until 2012, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission had been monitoring the company’s hiring and compensation practices as a result of an earlier discrimination suit. The company settled that suit in 2009 by agreeing to pay $4.3 million to 149 employees who were paid less, withheld from promotions or denied benefits because they were Hispanic.


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## martti (Feb 28, 2016)

That's what unions are for.
For B&H this is very bad publicity and the legal consequences will cost a lot of money.
Ugly thing, racism.


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## dak723 (Feb 28, 2016)

martti said:


> That's what unions are for.
> For B&H this is very bad publicity and the legal consequences will cost a lot of money.
> Ugly thing, racism.



Yes, ugly. And not just racism, but sexism as well. Hiring only men does not quite meet the equal opportunity standards. And separate restrooms for the non-whites. Good lord, I thought we were passed that sort of crap. (no pun intended.) They will certainly not get any of my business.


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## 9VIII (Feb 28, 2016)

Last I heard unions still aren't worth what they charge.
But poor working conditions are unacceptable. It's a hard thing to judge.
Of course, maybe now is the right time for it since the idea of "just get a job somewhere else" may be excessively difficult. Laborers are probably justified in being extra protective at this particular point in history.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 28, 2016)

beforeEos Camaras said:


> I have read the article. sounds like the union using lawsuits for leverage in notations for a contract. as this this issue is only located at one of the 3 warehouses.
> 
> I buy at a brick and mortar store and pay full msrp on all my goods that I buy.
> 
> ...




Read up on their Attorney and law practice. They are basically activists taking on corporations to squeeze millions in attorney fees out of them while the workers get little or nothing.

http://www.mmsjlaw.com/


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Otara said:
> ...



Yes, I can read. Do you understand that there's a difference between settling a lawsuit and being found guilty? Are you aware that many, if not most, settlements include the accused specifically _not_ admitting wrongdoing, or that in many cases it's more cost effective for a company to settle a lawsuit (reduce litigation fees, settlement often covered by insurance) than to go to court?

So let me ask again... Where does it say that B&H was previously *found guilty*? Feel free to highlight the relevant text in the color of your choice. 

Please note I'm not excusing any such (alleged) practices. But they say that technicality is the soul of the law...


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## martti (Feb 28, 2016)

So B&H was coming out clean from the trial and decided to pay the workers 4.3 million dollars anyway?

Wow. How are they still in business?


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2016)

martti said:


> So B&H was coming out clean from the trial



So there was a trial? Well, I guess facts don't matter much to some people.


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## takesome1 (Feb 28, 2016)

I thin it is very admirable that B&H only hires Hispanic males to work in unsanitary conditions and be harassed.
I know I wouldn't want my wife or daughters working in those conditions. 
However not allowing other males from other races to be hired for those conditions is just wrong. All males should be allowed to work in those conditions not just Hispanics.

I will continue to buy at B&H. Recently I returned an item and while talking to the rep he told me there were 600 or 900 employees in the customer service department. Two complaints over the lifetime of this company is nothing.


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## Orangutan (Feb 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> martti said:
> 
> 
> > So B&H was coming out clean from the trial
> ...



The word "guilt" has meaning beyond its courtroom definition. I'll leave it to you to check various dictionaries. Since few of us on this forum are lawyers, the sense of the word should have been clear.


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## slclick (Feb 28, 2016)

Boy, I wouldn't want a jury of 'these' peers from CR. I'm with Neuro on this, we just don't know enough, this is why we have the word 'alleged' in our vocabulary. If truly found guilty, I'll never shop there again but the forum jury is a bit premature.


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## Orangutan (Feb 28, 2016)

slclick said:


> Boy, I wouldn't want a jury of 'these' peers from CR. I'm with Neuro on this, we just don't know enough, this is why we have the word 'alleged' in our vocabulary. If truly found guilty, I'll never shop there again but the forum jury is a bit premature.



We don't know enough to throw anyone in jail, but we probably know enough to withhold our business.

I wish a lawyer would chime in about it, but my understanding is that this (and the previous) were not criminal complaints, but rather civil/administrative complaints. There are formal civil procedures for adjudicating those types of complaints, not all of which require a courtroom. B&H submitted to substantial remedies (payment of $4.9 million and monitoring of hiring and compensation practices) as part of a settlement. Such steep remedies strongly suggest that B&H was afraid that worse results would emerge from the full adjudication process. While this does not imply or suggest criminal guilt, it does suggest civil/administrative culpability, and very strongly supports the non-legal use of the term "guilt."


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > martti said:
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When people start tossing out statements like 'the trial' and 'found guilty', and there are no facts to support those statements, it doesn't take a law degree – or a dictionary – to know out of which orifice they're talking. 

I'm fortunate to live in a country where the concept of innocent until proven guilty is one of the tenets of the law. I feel sorry for you if you live somewhere where mere accusation proves guilt – but I feel even more sorry for if you live somewhere where your own rights include freedoms like innocent until proven guilty, and you deny those rights to others.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> We don't know enough to throw anyone in jail, but we probably know enough to withhold our business.



I wonder how many people posting statements like that because of alleged deplorable working conditions are posting them from an iPhone, or wearing clothing/shoes produced in a sweatshop. Perhaps something to be considered over a breakfast including produce picked by migrant farmworkers accompanied by coffee made from beans harvested by child labor. 

When you're on a high horse, falling can hurt.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 28, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Read up on their Attorney and law practice.
> 
> http://www.mmsjlaw.com/



From a photographic perspective, they need serious help with their headshots. From a website perspective any link that goes to a 'coming soon' page shouldn't be there at all.

From a B&H customer perspective I have been very happy with their service for many years, though I don't understand why they ran my CC for the 1DX MkII preorder immediately, Adorama don't. (I am not prone to preordering or buying $6,000 anythings so it came as a surprise)

From an ethics point of view, most of us need to look in the mirror before casting judgements like we are prone to. How many of us have taken pictures of people clearly in need of a little help, yet all we did was took from them? How many of us are happy in our ignorance of where our meat comes from, our clothes are made, our electronics are assembled etc etc? Taking a higher moral position is an unstable stool to stand on......


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## Orangutan (Feb 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
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> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I'm not accustomed to seeing you use false dichotomy, and this is more hyperbolic than normal for you. This is not a black/white issue: you are correct that there is no reporting of a criminal conviction, or even of a trial; however, that's not the question here. If we waited for 100% proof of everything we would all die of inertia. I'd be willing to bet a few dollars that very few, if any, pharmaceutical products would stand up to that level of proof. 

While it's entirely appropriate to keep an open and skeptical mind, we often must make decisions based on incomplete evidence. A good example is global climate change: the evidence is very strong, but not 100% (in part because we have incomplete knowledge of the systems involved). Nevertheless, based on the evidence and knowledge we do have, we are obliged to take some actions.

Again, this is not about criminal procedures, though I doubt you'll listen to me. I assume you have some lawyer friends, ask them about administrative procedures -- that's what this is about.


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## Orangutan (Feb 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > We don't know enough to throw anyone in jail, but we probably know enough to withhold our business.
> ...



We cannot be perfect, we can only try to be better every day. I try to make my possessions last as long as possible (my previous cell phone lasted 7 years, my car is almost 20), and I try to make the most ethical purchasing decisions I can. There are too many people for each of us to retreat to a self-contained life: there aren't enough places to build a hovel on a few acres to scratch a subsistence life here in the U.S. -- we're all part of a system. The remedy is to build a system that addresses those (very real) inequities you mention. A critical part of that system is enforcement of laws and regulations by the U.S. Labor Department, which is precisely what we have here.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> While it's entirely appropriate to keep an open and skeptical mind...
> 
> ...I doubt you'll listen to me.



Understood. I'll leave it to you to check various dictionaries for the word, _irony_.


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## Orangutan (Feb 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > While it's entirely appropriate to keep an open and skeptical mind...
> ...



A well-reasoned reply.

Oops, forgot the <sarcasm></sarcasm>


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## kphoto99 (Feb 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > We don't know enough to throw anyone in jail, but we probably know enough to withhold our business.
> ...



So you are saying that since we can't fix everything, we should do nothing.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> A well-reasoned reply.



What would be the point? B&H settled a lawsuit in 2007, and they're being sued again now. You've decided that means they're guilty....both then and now. 

What about the similar lawsuit in 2009? The one in 2011? No reports of those being settled, or ending in a guilty verdict. But no doubt they are guilty in those cases, too, right? I mean, they _were_ accused, after all. Who needs due process?

The real jury is still out, even though you've decided the case.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Feb 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



First of all, we have to distinguish between civil and criminal cases. In civil cases, settlements are often made in order to avoid the high costs of a trial.

It can take years for a trial to be completed after all the appeals are finished, so its often cheaper to settle.

Settlements usually involve a lot of money for the attorneys and almost nothing for the individuals affected, usually $10 or less. Attorneys love this, they get 1/3 of the settlement or millions of dollars. They are always searching for someone with deep pockets that they can sue, since they are guaranteed a big payday.  Obviously, they must have a large number of people who are unhappy and willing to testify about events that sound bad once a attorney twists the story around.

This makes it difficult to determine if a company is guilty, or if they are being essentially blackmailed in a legal manner. The bad publicity surrounding a trial and the nasty but unsubstantiated accusations can cost big bucks in lost sales and a damaged company image that paying a few million dollars is chicken feed, so they pay up.

This is what will happen here. There is no criminal trial, just Attorneys asking for a few million dollars for their coffers and a few dollars each for the employees.

The business about the labor unions is a red herring, its not part of the lawsuit, just Attorneys spinning it because some will think it means something.


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## josephandrews222 (Feb 28, 2016)

R1-7D said:


> I have heard bad things about B&H so many times. Where there is smoke there is usually fire...
> 
> 
> I've said this a quite a few times on this forum, but it goes double right now for the American's with their high dollar: everyone should really consider shopping at The Camera Store in Calgary, AB Canada.
> ...



I bought the 11-22mm lens for the EOS M from Vistek (back when it was not sold in the USA, my home country).

Very happy with the service--shipped safely and quickly.

At the time the Canadian/American exchange rate was near unity...so I didn't have to think about how this all works.

Can someone help me out here?

Using an AMEX credit card (or VISA etc.) how is the exchange rate handled?

Today the rate is 1.35 (not so good for my friends in Montreal, eh?).

So a lens that costs $1,350 CDN...that I purchase online...goes for $1,000 USD?

And my AMEX credit card bill (for that lens) will be $1,000?

FWIW...the Camera Store in Calgary seems to sell/ship (online) only to Canadians/Canada.


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## Don Haines (Feb 28, 2016)

josephandrews222 said:


> R1-7D said:
> 
> 
> > I have heard bad things about B&H so many times. Where there is smoke there is usually fire...
> ...


That's right.... $1,350 Canadian will show up as $1000 U.S.

For Canadian shops that I know of, 
The Camera Store in Calgary is very reputable....
Camera Canada is very reputable (my 7D2 came from there)...
Visitek is very reputable....
Henrys is very reputable.....


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## Orangutan (Feb 28, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > A well-reasoned reply.






> B&H settled a lawsuit in 2007, and they're being sued again now. You've decided that means they're guilty....both then and now.


 In this particular reply I'm avoiding the world "guilty" since you're focusing on the legal meaning of that (conviction at trial,upheld on appeal) I've decided that they're probably culpable for the following reasons.


The Justice Department under the Bush Administration was not known for strong labor enforcement. The fact that a case was pursued at that time means the Bush Labor Department felt the case was strong. Under any administration, there's not a lot of extra lawyer-hours to pursue frivolous cases, and many legitimate cases languish for lack of time. This, alone, does not mean that they are culpable -- prosecutors have been known to be wrong, and even malicious in their accusations; however, it adds weight to the pile.
B&H accepted a settlement that was pretty harsh: not only was it a lot of money, but there was oversight. At $300/hr for lawyers, it works out to over 16,000 billable hours. You can fight long and hard for that kind of money. The fact that B&H did not is highly suggestive of concession. Again, it's not irrefutable evidence (as you've noted, people settle for a variety of reasons). However, it adds weight to the belief that B&H didn't think that 16,000 lawyer-hours would win the case for them.

As you've rightly noted, there is not sufficient evidence in the article to convict in court; however, there is enough to support the opinion that there is likely a significant amount of misbehavior or culpability. That's good enough to deflect my money to another seller.




> What about the similar lawsuit in 2009? The one in 2011? No reports of those being settled, or ending in a guilty verdict. But no doubt they are guilty in those cases, too, right?


Straw man arguments aren't necessary here. There's enough real material for a productive discussion.




> The real jury is still out, even though you've decided the case.


I've decided for myself, not on behalf of a court.


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## that1guyy (Feb 28, 2016)

Insulting post removed.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> I've decided for myself



Well, that's certainly your right. You can take your business elsewhere because of your perception of their labor practices, your feelings about the owners' religious beliefs, or an intense dislike of the shade of red used in their logo. Go, freedom!


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## gary samples (Feb 28, 2016)

I know nothing of their internal politics . I have spent THOUSANDS of dollars there with zero problems so I'm good !


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## AlanF (Feb 28, 2016)

slclick said:


> that1guyy said:
> 
> 
> > It is fitting that the Canon fanboys on this website are racists/defenders of racists as well. Not surprised.
> ...



It's a sad aspect of our internet world that there are those who are so self-confidently judgmental that they brand individuals and organizations as being racist without any worry about evidence, and bravely hide behind the cloak of anonymity.


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## Don Haines (Feb 28, 2016)

Wow! So much said with so little evidence.... and already pronounced guilty by internet.....

Anybody know the details? Not the media talking points, the real details......

How do they compare to other companies?

Have they been making progress or are they getting worse?

who cares.... pronounce guilt by internet and be done with it...


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 28, 2016)

that1guyy said:


> It is fitting that the Canon fanboys on this website are racists/defenders of racists as well. Not surprised.



I had thought only one guy on these forums had a complete inability to understand what he read, sadly I've been proven wrong, and there's at least another 1guyy here who leaps to ridiculous conclusions with all the comprehension of a bowling ball and lacks the ability to distinguish a fact from a wart on his nose. 

I suppose there are some on this forum that will take such an accusation as true merely because it was made. Personally, I find such an unfounded accusation to be reprehensible and offensive, and would in turn suggest the accuser is an unmitigated ass.


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## 9VIII (Feb 28, 2016)

that1guyy said:


> It is fitting that the Canon fanboys on this website are racists/defenders of racists as well. Not surprised.



Wow...
Just wow.

You heard it here folks, according to people on the Internet, buying Canon means you're racist.

If you love freedom and want to stop puppy abuse, you'll buy from anyone but Canon. Down with the establishment! Reject all large corporations!
(Says the people of the imaginary revolution from their iPhones, while wielding Sony branded cameras with their radical, establishment shattering Exmor sensors and freedom inducing short flange distance.)


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## josephandrews222 (Feb 28, 2016)

Don Haines said:


> josephandrews222 said:
> 
> 
> > R1-7D said:
> ...



I'm not much for warranty cards...I just checked the warranty card for my Vistek-purchased 11-22mm Canon M lens...and it a 'Canada and USA' warranty.

Is this still true for the Canon lenses sold by Vistek et. al. to those south of the border (i.e. Americans)?

The Canon warranty, for lenses purchased from authorized Canon dealers based in Canada, to Yankees like me...is honored by Canon USA?


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 28, 2016)

josephandrews222 said:


> I'm not much for warranty cards...I just checked the warranty card for my Vistek-purchased 11-22mm Canon M lens...and it a 'Canada and USA' warranty.
> 
> Is this still true for the Canon lenses sold by Vistek et. al. to those south of the border (i.e. Americans)?
> 
> The Canon warranty, for lenses purchased from authorized Canon dealers based in Canada, to Yankees like me...is honored by Canon USA?



Canon Canada is owned by Canon USA, so yes.


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## Admin US West (Feb 29, 2016)

Please be civil in your comments. I've already issues one permanent bad, and don't want others. The topic is still open for discussion, but be civil.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 29, 2016)

Canon Rumors said:


> josephandrews222 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not much for warranty cards...I just checked the warranty card for my Vistek-purchased 11-22mm Canon M lens...and it a 'Canada and USA' warranty.
> ...



In particular for the M11-22mm, I believe that when the lens was not available for sale from US retailers, Canon USA would not have honored the warranty (at least partially due to service centers not stocking lens-specific parts). Now that it's sold in the US, I'm sure they'll honor it.


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## AlanF (Feb 29, 2016)

CR Backup Admin said:


> Please be civil in your comments. I've already issues one permanent bad, and don't want others. The topic is still open for discussion, but be civil.



Just checked on the previous comments of the newly permanently banned guy. He has real form in being abusive.


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## martti (Feb 29, 2016)

*imagine...*

Now we the lowly earthlings have learned that all the fuss there is and has been about B&H discriminating women and Hispanics is either due to greedy lawyers, power-hungry trade unions and the general suspicion raised by the redness of their website. There cannot be anything wrong with B&H's practices. The 4.3 million dollars they paid before was only to...to...to...you know, to calm down the situation, buy some time and peace.
Right now, B&H has failed to deliver two out the three items I have ordered before Christmas.
It wasn't like this before. There is something bad going on there.


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## N2itiv (Feb 29, 2016)

bdeutsch said:


> B&H is once again being sued for discriminating against its employees (this time it's for discriminating against its Hispanic employees). http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/27/nyregion/bh-electronics-store-sued-for-discrimination-of-hispanic-workers.html.
> 
> Like most pro and amateur photographers I know, I've been a loyal customer for years. But perhaps it's time we stop giving our money to companies with questionable morals and illegal conduct.
> 
> Deutsch Photography, Inc.: NYC Wedding Photographer | Actor and Corporate Headshots NYC | Family and Baby Portraits



I clearly believe with others that say B&H is innocent to proven guilty. Any possible wrongdoing may become clear eventlually. My concern at this point is strictly price. I've got some pricey gear to repurchase and if Canon Price Watch can save me the money while providing the USA warranty, that's the route I need to take. These legal matters will work themselves out. On a lighter note, sales people at B&H or Adorama don't provide conversation worth the extra $150-$600 cost when purchasing from them.


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## slclick (Feb 29, 2016)

N2itiv said:


> bdeutsch said:
> 
> 
> > B&H is once again being sued for discriminating against its employees (this time it's for discriminating against its Hispanic employees). http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/27/nyregion/bh-electronics-store-sued-for-discrimination-of-hispanic-workers.html.
> ...



As for Canon Price Watch, Street Prices lately have included more B&H items than lesser known sources. In fact I picked up one two weeks ago and it shipped without issue as all of my hundreds of purchases from them have. One thing I appreciate from them is when a sale is done it's done. No endless spamming of my Inbox, no upsale phone calls.


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## mkihne (Feb 29, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > A well-reasoned reply.
> ...



Duke Lacrosse players approve this message. ;D


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## JohnDizzo15 (Feb 29, 2016)

As many others have stated, none of this means anything. Furthermore, if we are to use our moral and ethical compasses to determine where we spend our money, then you wouldn't ever be able to buy anything. You'd be living in a hut of your own making wearing whatever you could muster up from nature to use as garb. This concept of spending with only morally stellar businesses (barring a company having done anything explicitly heinous), is simply ludicrous. 

The discrimination mentioned in the lawsuit pales in comparison to the moral and ethical atrocities being committed overseas by many of the major corporations you know and love. How many items do you have in your home that say "Made In China" on them (or any other Southeast Asian country for that matter).

Another thing, WTHeck does the word "guilty" or "innocence" have to do with a civil suit? I am interested to find out whether BH is found "liable" though (not that this decision will affect my buying habits in the slightest). LOL.


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## martti (Feb 29, 2016)

...I am struggling now to make their customer service understand that I have received one of the three items I ordered and that is not good enough....they do not seem to read the messages they get at all. 
Should I try changing the language?
'Dov' is not a Hispanic name, is it


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## privatebydesign (Feb 29, 2016)

martti said:


> ...I am struggling now to make their customer service understand that I have received one of the three items I ordered and that is not good enough....they do not seem to read the messages they get at all.
> Should I try changing the language?
> 'Dov' is not a Hispanic name, is it?
> [/size]
> [/size]They used to be a lot better before.



Humour is rarely universal.........


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## AlanF (Feb 29, 2016)

mkihne said:


> neuroanatomist said:
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> > Orangutan said:
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I thought you were referring to the Anglo-French aristocracy until I googled it. Pretty nasty case and a real lesson.


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## jrista (Feb 29, 2016)

bdeutsch said:


> B&H is once again being sued for discriminating against its employees (this time it's for discriminating against its Hispanic employees). http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/27/nyregion/bh-electronics-store-sued-for-discrimination-of-hispanic-workers.html.
> 
> Like most pro and amateur photographers I know, I've been a loyal customer for years. But perhaps it's time we stop giving our money to companies with questionable morals and illegal conduct.
> 
> Deutsch Photography, Inc.: NYC Wedding Photographer | Actor and Corporate Headshots NYC | Family and Baby Portraits



A lawsuit is only an accusation, it is not proof. This is still a country where you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. This is also an environment that is increasingly hostile to employers over pettier and pettier complaints, bogus or borderline "racism" claims, etc. We need to see what the legal system actually proves here, before we judge. 

For one, I get tired of hearing about the man/woman equality issues. There are some things that simply require physical strength, and a lot of the time women just don't fit the job REQUIREMENTS in those cases. That isn't a hostile form of discrimination, it is a NECESSARY form of discrimination based on the necessities of the job and for the safety of the workers. Perhaps there may have been other positions in the warehouse not dependent upon physical strength that a woman could have been hired into...but I suspect the 101 positions filled were not those. 

I can't say anything about the rest. I've never seen those warehouse bathrooms. I've not observed the advancement policies. There may indeed be something to those complaints...but the fact is, WE DON'T KNOW YET. Those details need to come out as part of the legal process. That's why we have the legal system we do. (Although I don't feel the current federal court judges will be particularly balanced in their opinions in a case like this, as I said, the current environment is more hostile to business and overly accommodating to increasingly petty complaints of "discrimination.")


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## NancyP (Feb 29, 2016)

That being said, the packages likely get to the purchaser via UPS, often with women loaders and drivers. Most of B and H's stock is relatively small and light. I imagine that there are few packages, maybe 10% or fewer, that exceed 40 pounds, and out of shape 5'5" I can lift 40 #.


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## neuroanatomist (Feb 29, 2016)

NancyP said:


> I imagine that there are few packages, maybe 10% or fewer, that exceed 40 pounds, and out of shape 5'5" I can lift 40 #.



Yeah, but you don't have to maintain liability insurance against the possibility of suing yourself for throwing out your back, or meet the terms of that insurance.


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## AcutancePhotography (Feb 29, 2016)

It may be a minor point, but "innocent until proven guilty" is not correct.

The correct phrase and concept is that a person is "presumed innocent until proven guilty".


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## unfocused (Feb 29, 2016)

[quote author=Pogo]
We have met the enemy and he is us.
[/quote]

Not taking sides or passing judgment on this civil case. I will let the courts and lawyers sort it out. 

But...let's not forget who is really at fault here.

Consumers have become addicted to securing the lowest price possible at any cost. We buy from gray market dealers who circumvent the system just because it saves us a few dollars. We become tax scofflaws, buying from outlets that don't collect sales taxes and then we pretend we don't owe the tax. We buy from online outfits that pay nothing to support our local police, fire, schools, streets, etc.

Then we are shocked...shocked...that retailers cut costs in every way imaginable in order to compete. 

I'm no better than anyone else and I don't know what the solution is. But, I do know that the current system may be great for consumers with lots of disposable income to spend on cameras and other toys, but it is not so good for working people.


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## privatebydesign (Feb 29, 2016)

unfocused said:


> [quote author=Pogo]
> We have met the enemy and he is us.



Not taking sides or passing judgment on this civil case. I will let the courts and lawyers sort it out. 

But...let's not forget who is really at fault here.

Consumers have become addicted to securing the lowest price possible at any cost. We buy from gray market dealers who circumvent the system just because it saves us a few dollars. We become tax scofflaws, buying from outlets that don't collect sales taxes and then we pretend we don't owe the tax. We buy from online outfits that pay nothing to support our local police, fire, schools, streets, etc.

Then we are shocked...shocked...that retailers cut costs in every way imaginable in order to compete. 

I'm no better than anyone else and I don't know what the solution is. But, I do know that the current system may be great for consumers with lots of disposable income to spend on cameras and other toys, but it is not so good for working people.
[/quote]

As always there are counter points:

1/ We are addicted to the lowest prices because in real terms our wages have gone down considerably in the last 20 years.
2/ We buy grey market because despite the fear mongering they are exactly the same products made in the same factory by the same people, we are just taking advantage of currency fluctuations, like all multinationals do.
3/ We become tax scofflaws because we see corporations earning billions of dollars in profits pay zero tax. If a tax system is not seen to be fair then people will abuse it.
4/ We don't care about local services because they are well able to raise revenue via the police in fines and seizures and other unavoidable taxes. We can't avoid paying for schools (even if we don't use them) and roads because if we do we lose our homes, even if we own them outright.


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## 9VIII (Mar 1, 2016)

I say all the "Internet Shopping is Killing Retail" fluff is a bunch of hogwash.
Actually, Internet shopping is killing retail, and that's good, that's fantastic, I couldn't be happier that online shopping is killing retail. Traditional retail needs to DIE! (financially speaking)

My experience is that traditional retail means dealing with staff who are trying to shaft you and know next to nothing outside the best methods for shafting customers, and you don't even know if what you're looking for is in stock when you show up.
I know that rare exceptions do exist, but just about any retailer with a passion for their product is now online (because that's the best method of selling your product).

Prime example around here is Memory Express, a business that started with a single location in Calgary around the turn of the century and over the last decade or so has opened about a dozen clean and well staffed retail locations, and they did that by having a robust website and offering the best prices on the Internet.
Last time I tried shopping at Sears I had to argue with management just to get them to match sale prices advertised in their own national flyers.

What that tells me is we've found a wholly and entirely better way of doing retail. It just supports about 1/10th the number of retailers.
Which again is fantastic unless you're the kind of person who believes that businesses exist to find ways to employ people instead of existing to serve the customer.


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## Bennymiata (Mar 1, 2016)

9VIII said:


> I say all the "Internet Shopping is Killing Retail" fluff is a bunch of hogwash.
> Actually, Internet shopping is killing retail, and that's good, that's fantastic, I couldn't be happier that online shopping is killing retail. Traditional retail needs to DIE! (financially speaking)
> 
> My experience is that traditional retail means dealing with staff who are trying to shaft you and know next to nothing outside the best methods for shafting customers, and you don't even know if what you're looking for is in stock when you show up.
> ...



Just imagine if your wish came true and all b&m retailers went broke.
Where would you go to actually see the latest models and try them out?
When you got hungry, I guess you could hang around for a couple of days until Fedex delivered you your hamburger?


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## Orangutan (Mar 1, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > I imagine that there are few packages, maybe 10% or fewer, that exceed 40 pounds, and out of shape 5'5" I can lift 40 #.
> ...



I did a quick search and found this: 

http://www.loadmoverinc.com/mmh-women-injured-on-the-job-more-than-men-and-its-not-about-muscle-power/

It's not a foregone conclusion that women are more at-risk from this kind of work. I wish I could find the reference, but I recall hearing of one study that said women were less likely to be injured by lifting moderate weights because they were more likely to use correct technique, whereas men tended to muscle everything. Maybe you have access to research databases that would answer the question better.


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## 9VIII (Mar 1, 2016)

Bennymiata said:


> 9VIII said:
> 
> 
> > I say all the "Internet Shopping is Killing Retail" fluff is a bunch of hogwash.
> ...



I haven't handled products in person for years, living two hours from the nearest "sort of large" urban center means the only demo equipment I get to try locally is labelled John Deere. Not to mention half the stuff I'm usually looking at is only available from out of country.
And when I do try to buy something "locally" it's usually out of stock.
A few years ago I tried to buy a Canon 90mm Tilt Shift lens during the rebate period. No-one in the country had one, and when I placed a special order the retailer never called me back.

Retailers are good for either extremely common items or high priced professional services. If you're not a big customer, just take what's on the shelf or look somewhere else.
So I buy just about everything from the U.S.
And prices from the states are usually better unless the U.S. economy is in meltdown.

Ok, maybe I should specify that Canadian retail can die in a fire. Ironically U.S. retailers are rapidly expanding North because they can charge ridiculous prices because everything is so hard to find up here.
But I'm not the one making Amazon the biggest retailer in America. It just happens that online shopping is both popular and good for international customers (and rural areas in general).


And I can't wait for hamburgers to be available for order online, most drive through cashiers have terrible verbal comprehension skills, not to mention the constant pestering "would you like our deal of the week?"
And then if there's more than three people in the vehicle they probably get the order wrong.

The less people involved in purchasing things the better.


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## martti (Mar 1, 2016)

What happens when you outsource everything: https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Outsorcerer_s_Apprentice.html?id=WeXIAgAAQBAJ&source=kp_cover&hl=en


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## martti (Mar 7, 2016)

An upgrade: Four emails sent, no reaction except the automatic patellar "Dear Customer" -thing.
So I called and explained that there really was one item that was delivered which is very nice but two are still missing. It's been two weeks until this idea penetrated.


I spoke english. With my Spanish...I did not try.
He promised to get the issue settled in five working days. Whatever it may mean.


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## slclick (Mar 7, 2016)

martti said:


> An upgrade: Four emails sent, no reaction except the automatic patellar "Dear Customer" -thing.
> So I called and explained that there really was one item that was delivered which is very nice but two are still missing. It's been two weeks until this idea penetrated.
> 
> 
> ...



March is a good time for ordering and shipping from B&H with very few Jewish Holidays halting all work. L'Chaim


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## Cory (Mar 7, 2016)

The first thing I would do is move all operations out of New York. New Germany is just as bad if not worse. Probably upstate PA is the only option.


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## Zv (Mar 8, 2016)

privatebydesign said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > [quote author=Pogo]
> ...



As always there are counter points:

1/ We are addicted to the lowest prices because in real terms our wages have gone down considerably in the last 20 years.
2/ We buy grey market because despite the fear mongering they are exactly the same products made in the same factory by the same people, we are just taking advantage of currency fluctuations, like all multinationals do.
3/ We become tax scofflaws because we see corporations earning billions of dollars in profits pay zero tax. If a tax system is not seen to be fair then people will abuse it.
4/ We don't care about local services because they are well able to raise revenue via the police in fines and seizures and other unavoidable taxes. We can't avoid paying for schools (even if we don't use them) and roads because if we do we lose our homes, even if we own them outright.
[/quote]

We are addicted to finding low prices but that is also a product of the consumerist culture we have created. Yeah we probably have less money but the more bargains we buy the more competitive the market becomes and retailers will need to keep up by exploiting staff of dodging tax. This problem will only get worse unless we take a long hard look at ourselves and make some lifestyle changes and become motivated to do something politically. 

Today it's B&H, tomorrow it'll be a different company. Everyone just gets poorer as we funnel money to the top. Yet we continue down this path.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 8, 2016)

slclick said:


> martti said:
> 
> 
> > An upgrade: Four emails sent, no reaction except the automatic patellar "Dear Customer" -thing.
> ...




B&H has a person who can help out if needed, Henry Posner fills a function similar to Helen Oster at Adorama. Ask Henry for help if you can't get it resolved.


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## monkey44 (Mar 8, 2016)

A little difference between Henry and Helen, besides the spelling.

When you have an issue with Adorama, Helen gets back to you very quickly.

When you have an issue with B&H, Henry gets back to you in five or six weeks. 

This, based on personal experience - Although I believe members of the same family own each of these companies, I haven't done business with B&H in quite a while for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the after-sales CS. It once was great, years ago, now, leaves a lot on the table.


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## slclick (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm already seeing the B&H bashing and personal boycotts mentioned on other sites. Folks here do not have a corner on the market for prejudgement.


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## martti (Mar 8, 2016)

slclick said:


> I'm already seeing the B&H bashing and personal boycotts mentioned on other sites. Folks here do not have a corner on the market for prejudgement.






Up until now I have got excellent service at B&H. This is something new that I have not experienced before.
The answers I got to my emails were inadequate to say the least.

WTH should I bash B&H? I have been a returning customer for a decade there now.


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## slclick (Mar 8, 2016)

martti said:


> slclick said:
> 
> 
> > I'm already seeing the B&H bashing and personal boycotts mentioned on other sites. Folks here do not have a corner on the market for prejudgement.
> ...



My comment was in no way directed at any of yours or your situation.


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## martti (Mar 8, 2016)

slclick said:


> martti said:
> 
> 
> > slclick said:
> ...




I did not think so. Everybody is taking offence these days, so I just tried how it feels. Not worth it.
8) Peace.


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## slclick (Mar 8, 2016)

On a positive note, B&H just issued me a $80 credit and 4% rewards for a lens I purchased less than30 days ago which just went on sale. 

One polite email and, voila!

Have a great day!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 8, 2016)

monkey44 said:


> A little difference between Henry and Helen, besides the spelling.
> 
> When you have an issue with Adorama, Helen gets back to you very quickly.
> 
> ...



I've never dealt with Henry directly, but Helen has helped me out, and she was fast, as you noted. Generally, I use Adorama for new High End Camera releases simply because I've always received my new camera from the first shipment while B&H seems to have so many orders that buyers have to wait. 

I do buy plenty of items from B&H, several in the past year, and everything went smoothly.

We also have a small local camera store, I purchase full price new camera models from them as well. They only sell a half dozen of new releases like a 5D MK IV, but they get them very quickly.


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## Ozarker (Mar 12, 2016)

Orangutan said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Otara said:
> ...



I'm going to step in here. I'm an American of Mexican descent. I am not a Mexican-American. Mexican, Latino, Hispanic, Guatemalan, etc. are not races. If one studies anthropology there are but three races: Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid. There are even arguments in the field of anthropology that there are only two races: Caucasoid and Negroid. There is a vast difference between the terms ethnicity and race. Latinos come in all colors: Black, white, and Asian. Same with Mexicans. Mexican is a nationality, not a race. Mexico is largely run by Caucasians.

Someone will ask, "What about American Indians?" Asian. They came across a land bridge between Asia and North American many thousands of years ago.

"Latino" and "Hispanic" are political constructs used to divide us and used as tools by politicians to great effect. Latino? The overwhelming majority of Latin Americans are Catholic. What was the Catholic Mass given in? Latin.

Hispanic? First used politically by President Richard Nixon.

Every several years the voluntary "race" marker on forms gets bigger. More ways to divide us.

There are three races and hundreds of ethnicities. We are all human.

I have no idea exactly what goes on at B&H. Settling a case does not necessarily mean a party is guilty. At any rate, hispanic and latino are not races.

B&H will continue to get my business as well as Adorama. There are Black, White, and Asian Jews too. Jew is not a race either.

BTW, I read a lot of people in other forums calling Mexican nationals South Americans. Mexico is a part of the North American continent. They are North Americans.


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## Ozarker (Mar 12, 2016)

9VIII said:


> I say all the "Internet Shopping is Killing Retail" fluff is a bunch of hogwash.
> Actually, Internet shopping is killing retail, and that's good, that's fantastic, I couldn't be happier that online shopping is killing retail. Traditional retail needs to DIE! (financially speaking)
> 
> My experience is that traditional retail means dealing with staff who are trying to shaft you and know next to nothing outside the best methods for shafting customers, and you don't even know if what you're looking for is in stock when you show up.
> ...



Internet shopping is not killing retail. It is retail. Internet shopping is spawning sales for both brick and mortar stores (Adorama and B&H) and internet only stores.


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## martti (Apr 5, 2016)

martti said:


> An upgrade: Four emails sent, no reaction except the automatic patellar "Dear Customer" -thing.
> So I called and explained that there really was one item that was delivered which is very nice but two are still missing. It's been two weeks until this idea penetrated.
> 
> 
> ...




An upgrade. I picked up Skype and called them. A person answered the phone, looked up my emails and said "oops, I have to do something about this". And he did and I finally got the items that the French Post had failed to deliver. 

"Tombées du camion" they say about the things that get sto... you know, that vanish into another dimension where we mortals have no access. Only 'fonctionaires' do.

There is even a FB page by that name: https://fr-fr.facebook.com/TombeesDuCamion


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