# 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights



## Canon Rumors Guy (Dec 14, 2011)

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<strong>Some insights</strong>

[<strong><a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html">NL</a></strong>] mentions weâ€™ll be seeing the 7D Mark II as well as a 5D Mark III by the time Photokina 2012 rolls around next September.</p>
<p>They also go on to mention that if Canon does release a higher megapixel full frame camera (30+ mp), it wonâ€™t be the 5D Mark III that gets them. The testing of higher megapixel sensors was also mentioned and itâ€™s said all of this will depend on the â€œmarketâ€.</p>
<p>With all that being said, is it being insinuated that the 5D Mark III would get the same or similar sensor to the 18mp one in the 1D X?</p>
<p>The recent price drops of the 5D Mark II (<a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=embl1215ca5d&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&BI=2466&KBID=3296">down to $1999</a> in the US) I donâ€™t think are a direct precursor to an imminent 5D Mark III announcement.</p>
<p><strong>7D Mark II

</strong>Absolutely zero information has come my way about a new 7D. What I donâ€™t think will happen is an APS-H 7D. They wonâ€™t eliminate the use of EF-S lenses on the body.</p>
<p>Iâ€™ve only heard about a 24mp APS-C, and an updated 18mp APS-C sensor. Niether of which there is much information about.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## Wahoowa (Dec 14, 2011)

I hope it'll be announced in Jan. But, realistically, I don't think it'll happen after 1DX has been available for a while.


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## lonelywhitelights (Dec 14, 2011)

a 7D 2 is an unrealistic advance right now with everything surrounding the 1Dx, the cinema cameras and all the hype surrounding the 5D III

The only reason I would look to upgrade from my current 7D to a 7D2 would be if it offered considerable improvements in low-light performance or if they radically decided to make the upgraded body full frame (which will never happen) but with the 5D II becoming cheaper by the month ($1700 here in europe) the chances are I'm more likely to buy myself a 5D II body while the price is down and while production still continues

I'm personally not hyped on the 5D III as I'm pretty sure on release it'll be out of my price range

as for the high MP sensors.... they're not really of that much interest to me. Anything around the 20mp mark on a full frame sensor is surely enough? the 1DX has proved favour of a lower MP/full frame combo.

If I were to bother with anything with a high MP count it would be one of Hasselblad's H4D systems (the 200MS is pretty incredible) but that would be if money were no object and I just wanted a new toy


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## mathino (Dec 14, 2011)

Well, I dont think Canon will announce both of them at the same time. I bet on 5D Mk III announced around summer time and 7D Mk II announced in september (if it will be).

I think that 5D Mk III wont be announced in January - before 1D-X becomes available. Depends of course on specs but it doesnt make much sense for me. They need to roll out 1 pro camera and see the numbers and response to know when they should pop out with new "affordable" FF - even if this is case when 5D Mk III will be 30+ Mpx and worse AF from 1D-X. They need to figure out with which specs (especially sensor) to bail out into production. Also they still have good numbers on current 5D Mk II so there is no rush for them. Maybe Nikon will change the game a bit with D700 successor but there is no info on that body.


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## RayS2121 (Dec 14, 2011)

RayS2121 said:


> As 2011 winds down, I wiped the profuse drooling I have become prone to since 1D-X was announced, and reassessed when â€œrealisticallyâ€ a 5D3 could be *in my hands*...not an announcement...an actual body I can unbox.
> 
> Central to the timeline is _what_ sensor Canon would use on the 5D3; would they do what they did before with 1Ds3 and 5D2 and use a similar sensor as the 1 series, though not many expected them to, not the least of which the 1Ds3 owners who doled out premium $$$? Or will they put resources into generating a redundant sensor just making minor MP tweaks and fixing a bit of ISO?
> 
> ...




Now based on CR's last post on 5D3 MP levels, there is more reason to believe what I suggested above earlier is possible with the 1DX like sensor being featured in the 5D3 replacement. In speaking about 5D3 replacement, I mean a product that will target an "*average*" 5D2 customor who had bought 5d2 at about ~$3000 pricepoint give or take a few.

We are *not* talking about the highly vocal fans who say they don't mind paying $4500 or more for more features and MP. Such a body is not a "direct" replacement to 5D2 price point. 

It may well be that Canon can easily make a 36+ MP sensor, upgrade electronics to increase data flow, engineer moderately higher ISO performace in a body. Perhaps we can wish in our wet dreams that it will shoot at blistering 12fps, upgraded AF, in a weather sealed body, that dances a jig when we whistle...such a body is likely to target a *higher price point * as previously noted by some good heads here. 

Using 1DX -like sensor will save Canon R&D dollars. By using 1DX like sensor, Canon can quickly deliver a new FF body with _lower features _ than 1DX for about~ $3000 or so. They have used similar sensors in higher/lower end bodies before ....no reason to believe they won't do it again.

But keep your chin up MP folks! Based on what Nikon does, a higher MP version may well follow, *but* at a higher price point or with limited features to maximize profits. Best!


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## AprilForever (Dec 14, 2011)

I am eagerly awaiting 7D mk II, but I won't likely be pre-ordering... Not unless it has something extra good going for it... Prolly, given my current finances, I'll need to wait until 2013 to get it anyway... 

My guess is that the 7D mk II will be announced in September... when it will actually be available is anyone's guess...


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## mathino (Dec 14, 2011)

Thats exactly close to what I think. New 5D MK III with less MPx and less noise - same sensor as 1D-X is most likely to come true. Well, I was at one Canon event last week and one guy asked Canon rep about 5D Mk III and he mentioned that there is possibility that a completly new line will be announced with different AF from current 5D Mk II and higher MPx sensor. I dont know the reliabilty of that info but it makes sense to me - especially when D800 with 36 MPx will be announced.



> Now based on CR's last post on 5D3 MP levels, there is more reason to believe what I suggested is possible with the 1DX like sensor being featured in the 5D3 replacement. In speaking about 5D3 replacement, I mean a product that will target an "*average*" 5D2 customor who had bought 5d2 at about ~$3000 pricepoint give or take a few.
> 
> We are *not* talking about the highly vocal fans who say they don't mind paying $4500 or more for more features and MP. Such a body is not a "direct" replacement to 5D2 price point.
> 
> ...


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## armando (Dec 14, 2011)

I think it's really hard to try to improve on the 7d & 5d mkii (will include the 60d) really great camera's for what they are  think everyone would love a 5d mkIII with at least one XLR input a mode that switches the sensor to an 8mp for low light  then flips back to a 30MP camera lol 

but none the less even though I love the DOF that i'm seeing; that I would love an xf100 for video and the dslr as a camera 

so... i'm happy with my 7d / 5d mkii for a couple more years


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## jbwise01 (Dec 14, 2011)

Ahh the rollercoaster ride continues... now credible sources again say that the 5D Mk III have an 18 MP sensor, likes its' 1Dx bretheren. 

An official announcement would logically take place during CES... in January 2012. It does make some sense that canon would wait until after the 1Dx is on store shelves to release news of the 5D Mk III. For a CES 12' announcement I would think its safe to assume that those who plan on purchasing the 1Dx will not be swayed by the 5D3 features, meaning the 5D3 will not exceed the 1Dx in features, so that gives us a logical place to begin guessing:

18mp
4 FPS
25600 ISO
similar UI to 1Dx
19 pt AF

all for around $2599

I would suspect a pethora of Lens announcements to accompany the 5D3 announcement as well:
24mm-70mm L II, etc...

5D3 will change the FF game... it canon bread and butter!


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## Arkarch (Dec 14, 2011)

jbwise01 said:


> so that gives us a logical place to begin guessing:
> 
> 18mp
> 4 FPS
> ...



I tend to agree, but maybe a slightly higher FPS, say 6.

Feels like a "7D" features upgrade on a higher ISO/lower noise FF body.

And yes, I do expect the CES timeframe. I have to speculate that recent price downgrades are because of "a stall" in the 5DII market - I dont have any numbers/evidence to back that up - but it stands to reason that serious buyers may be going into a wait-and-see mode until they know specs and timing of the Mark III 

I dont think retailers are trying to dump inventory because of any known information - as I am sure the 21 MP Mark II should continue to see good sales for a good while, no matter how it is positioned. Canon may already be positioning the 5DMII at a lower price point between the 7D and 5DMIII ($1499, 1999, 2499+?)

And I dont think the Mark III will canabolize the 1DX. If you have $6800 to spend on a camera, you are way beyond the Mark III announcement; unless you are in the High MP camp and then maybe you are shopping MF's. 

Just my 200 pixels.


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## pedro (Dec 14, 2011)

An 18 MP 1Dxish sensor at a moderate price point ~3k would be THE dream cam for me as an amateur. L1 50, H1 51k ISO.


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## unfocused (Dec 14, 2011)

> And I dont think the Mark III will canabolize the 1DX. If you have $6800 to spend on a camera, you are way beyond the Mark III announcement; unless you are in the High MP camp and then maybe you are shopping MF's.



I disagree and that's why I have a problem with the supposed specs. The vast majority of 1DX buyers are business buyers. In these times, every business has to keep a close watch on the bottom line. Most major newspapers today are either already in bankruptcy or heading that way. Most magazines job out their work to freelancers who have to compete with one another. Given the downward price pressure on photographers in all areas, there are very few who can afford to opt for the 1DX unless they have no choice.

So, one has to look at the features of the 1DX and figure out which features Canon has to protect. I don't have access to their market research so I won't predict what they will reserve for the 1DX and what they will allow to filter down. The remarkable similarities between the 1DX and the Nikon D4 provides a little insight into what both companies' research shows their top tier buyers want. 

I thought a clear differentiation between the 1DX and the 5D MKIII made sense. If we are to believe these latest rumors, that could be wrong. I'm skeptical, but then, I have been surprised by Canon a lot lately.


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## phischeye (Dec 14, 2011)

If Canon announces the 5DmIII in the first quarter of 2012, it might as well launch along with the 1DX. 
I agree, if they share the same sensor, it might be difficult to position them for special purposes. But as far as I understand, the the most marings come from the consumer cameras. It might well be interesting for canon to launch the 5DMIII at the same time. And the 1DX just to show what's possible for top class sports and action photographers.


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## RayS2121 (Dec 14, 2011)

Arkarch said:


> And yes, I do expect the CES timeframe....




I disagree. CES January 2012 announcements are very unrealistic... read my reasons above and at an earlier thread here:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2399.msg51182.html#msg51182

Canon can easily ride out the first half of the year on 1DX news as Nikon is playing catch up with 16mp D4 just to answer 1DX. Even if they come in quickly with D800, canon has time till Summer or Fall 2012 before the pressure mounts.

It is naive to expect 5D3 sooner, especially if Canon is planning on recycling 1DX like sensor in 5D3. Even with lower stats, 1DX buyers spending a whopping ~$7000 will be pissed off if the sensor, the central feature, the brain is the same with a cheaper cousin that is already announced. From a marketing point of view, this is *no* way for them to sell enough 1DX and they won't do it! They will wait a respectable time after 1DX is in the market before announcing another body using 1DX like sensor. Just refer to history of 5D2 and 1D series using similar sensors before... 

So if there is an announcement of 5D3 in Sept-December 2012 range, I donâ€™t expect actual shipping of 5D3 or people laying hands on it till Christmas 2012 or more realistically early 2013. We may get a lot of teasers to keep us on the hook, but I am talking about the real thing in your hand.


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## phischeye (Dec 14, 2011)

RayS2121 said:


> It is naive to expect 5D3 sooner, especially if Canon is planning on recycling 1DX like sensor in 5D3. Even with lower stats, 1DX buyers spending a whopping ~$7000 will be pissed off if the sensor, the central feature, the brain is the same with a cheaper cousin that is already announced.



I agree. It is either simultaneously or with a significant delay.


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## RayS2121 (Dec 14, 2011)

phischeye said:


> RayS2121 said:
> 
> 
> > It is naive to expect 5D3 sooner, especially if Canon is planning on recycling 1DX like sensor in 5D3. Even with lower stats, 1DX buyers spending a whopping ~$7000 will be pissed off if the sensor, the central feature, the brain is the same with a cheaper cousin that is already announced.
> ...



Actually, announcement _cannot_ be simultaneous with 1DX release cycle or even overlap it in anyway especially if 5d3 has a similar sensor to 1DX and costs half as much! Canon will have to wait for 1DX to hit the market and be in users hands (2 to 3 months?) before they announce 5D3. This is a likley scenario and would be the repeat of what they did earlier with 5D2 release ~3 years ago. That time-line automatically takes 5D3 announcement to April to November 2012. Add a few months for shipping/ store availability and you arrive at Christmas 2012 or early 2013.


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## minestrone (Dec 14, 2011)

I've had my 5D Mark II since the first week of its release (I'm sure many of you have as well). Its been years since an update. Two things that I'm already pissed off about...

1.) I don't want to wait till 2012 for a new Full Frame. 
2.) I don't want to step back in the MP count. I do products, landscapes and portraits. I don't care about FPS. I don't care about AF. Neither the original 5D or the current 5DMII were meant to be high FPS sports cameras. If you want that, buy a used 1D or a 7D.

The thought of waiting another year and having an 18MP FF is Fu*ked up. 

Here's what I want (and I'm no one special so Canon won't care)

*32MP or 36MP Full Frame Sensor*
There were plenty of talks that the L lenses wouldn't be able to handle the 21MP from the 5D Mark II but I've taken tons of photos where the sharpness has been beyond anything I could hope for. So whatever, I'm sure it'll survive 36MP and at least do an "ok" job of rendering images. 

*4 FPS at 32MP *
6 FPS at 12MP s-raw
The 6 FPS is a bonus. 4 FPS would suffice. 

*Vastly improved AF with more zone coverage.* 
The current diamond shape AF from the 5D Mark II is garbage. I think we can all agree that the 5DmIII needs better AF regardless if you want more or less MP/FPS. 

*Improved weather sealing*
I have to say though, I took my 5D Mark II into a Hawaiian rainforest and it was pouring and the camera and lens did just fine. Very humid too. On another occasion I was recording rain in a grassy field and again, the 5DmII was perfectly ok. So weather sealing on this camera is NOT bad. 

*Better ISO noise at 6400 and 12800. *
That's really as high as I ever go. If they can reduce noise by 25% in those two high ranges I'd be a happy camper. I understand that the larger the MP count the more it suffers from ISO noise. So I'm ok with whatever they can produce in this area. 

*Price: $2800* 
I'd be willing to pay $3000. Maybe I'm asking for too much and not paying enough? I don't know. I guess none of this matters since the camera looks like it'll be a MP runt.


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## photophreek (Dec 14, 2011)

A 18 mp sensor is fine. You can't print more than 10 and your eyes can't tell the difference between 21 and 32. All I want is clean files at any ISO. In addition, I want the 5d 3 to have the 7d AF system at a minimum, but better low light performance along with the custonization of the 7d. Better DLA than the 7d would be good and I don't care about fps more than the current model. 

Much to the dismay of some of the responders here, this camera will not be priced at $2500. Get ready for a $3500 price tag. If this supposed camera doesn't show up by the summer or more positive information/specs don't emerge, then the 1D X might have a permanent spot in my camera bag.


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## Minnesota Nice (Dec 14, 2011)

I'd like the 7D Mark II to have these features (totally catered to my own needs though):

Continuous AF in video
High frame rate (8FPS is already nice)
Dual Digic 5+
Weather sealing

Hmmm... That's all I can really think of aside from dual SD/Compact Flash or XQD card slots.


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## photophreek (Dec 14, 2011)

dilbert wrote:



> Why would Canon bring the 5D3 in at a price over that of the original 5D? I can see no justification for it, either in their practices nor the competitive landscape that is the current market.



Canon released the 500mm Mk II priced higher than the Mk I. In addition the 70-200 II was priced 25% more than the Mk I. If the 5d 3 sensor is the same as the 1D X, R&D can be spread out amongst more cameras.

The 5d 3 should be priced based on the compareable Nikon model or slightly higher. The feature/function set I described in my "wish list" 5d 3 would not be a $2500 camera and not too far from $3000+.


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## Zuuyi (Dec 14, 2011)

The 5D3 will not be above $3k.

The 1Dx is a pro only tool, so it's priced accordingly. But the 5d3 will be pros/semi-pros who buy it. What happen since the 5d2 was planned and came out. The economy crashed and still hasn't recovered.

The 5d3 will be right around $2500-2750.

All I want is 24+MP (I would love 30+MP but not likely), 3+ FPS (sorry I don't need more), ISO/DR/Noise Improvements, and some video improvements.

It would also be great if the offered the supposed new 24-70L as a kit lens.


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## Arkarch (Dec 14, 2011)

Zuuyi said:


> It would also be great if the offered the supposed new 24-70L as a kit lens.



Nice catch. I am expecting a "hard bundle" for the first shipments and a new 24-70L would make a bunch of sense.



RayS2121 said:


> Arkarch said:
> 
> 
> > And yes, I do expect the CES timeframe....
> ...



I read the article. But I just dont see the empathy argument to not stomp on 1DX buyers. Two different markets. 

Canon needs a major announcement at CES. Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press. The 1DX and C300 are pro offerings. A 5DMarkIII gets them news and allows them opportunity to talk more about the new lenses and 1DX as its big brother (a big plus). 

If there is a delay, I think it would be rooted in production yield concerns about the new sensor that early in release, of course after the initial 1DX ships. BTW, I do put a ton of creds into it being the same sensor for the obvious R&D and production efficiencies. Higher MP probably in R&D, but not ready this cycle.

So I'll throw - Hard Bundle $4000 (body eventually $2500-3000) shipping in mid-summer, announce CES, as the sibling to the 1DX - into the pool. 

And of course I will probably be wrong


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## RayS2121 (Dec 14, 2011)

Arkarch said:


> But I just dont see the empathy argument to not stomp on 1DX buyers. Two different markets.
> 
> Canon needs a major announcement at CES. Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press. The 1DX and C300 are pro offerings. A 5DMarkIII gets them news and allows them opportunity to talk more about the new lenses and 1DX as its big brother (a big plus).
> 
> ...



And I concur with you that you _will_ be _wrong_  

If 5D3 is announced in CES January 2012, I'll eat my hat  No 5D3 announcement before April and may be as late as end of the year around Christmas.

Canon will have stuff to show off at CES, they have just released two major cameras: 1DX and a totally new cinema system. Nikon is scrambling just to meet 1Dx and all we have from Nikon is rumors of this that or the other. Nothing CONCRETE whatsoever yet. So canon is under no major pressure. And I am sure there will be lenses annonced and more info and teasers on 1DX picture samples and "hands on" to trickle in the coming months. So Canon can keep the pot boiling for a while yet. Sucks I know, but that's marketing.


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## whatta (Dec 14, 2011)

Minnesota Nice said:


> I'd like the 7D Mark II to have these features (totally catered to my own needs though):
> 
> Continuous AF in video
> High frame rate (8FPS is already nice)
> ...



7d2 will have a new sensor for sure. Canon might "dare" to reuse the 18mp apsc sensor (5th time) in the 650d, but not for the 7d2. And maybe a new efs 15-60 f2.8 

or maybe the 650d, 700d, 70d and 7d2 will have the same apsc sensor again..


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## Arkarch (Dec 14, 2011)

RayS2121 said:


> And I concur with you that you _will_ be _wrong_



And I'll have a 1DX in my bag.

(if the 5DMark III is 2013 release)

So we both win!


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## traveller (Dec 14, 2011)

Arkarch said:


> Nice catch. I am expecting a "hard bundle" for the first shipments and a new 24-70L would make a bunch of sense.



If a 24-70 f/2.8L replacement is announced next year, then it will probably initially be made available to 1D X buyers only, but I can't see it bundled with a 5D Mk.II replacement -it would be too expensive. 



Arkarch said:


> Canon needs a major announcement at CES. Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press.



CES is not the only big show next year, there's Photokina at the end of September; traditionally, this has been the more important show (compared to the old, pre-CES integrated PMA) for announcing higher-end cameras.


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## michael6liu (Dec 14, 2011)

dilbert said:


> Zuuyi said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D3 will not be above $3k.
> ...



I would not hold my breath for 5dIII to be $2000. It will be around $2500-3000 when released. The recent price drop on 5dII has more to do with retailers during holiday season than anything. It might even go up slightly early next year until 5dIII announcement. Hopefully around CES, but more likely to be Photokina.

Sony is showing some promising results from the NEX7 but that is just one mirroless camera with a crop sensor. There are a couple of hurdles Sony needs to pass first before they can challenge Canon & Nikon:
1. Fix A77. If anything, the A77 (APS-C sensor) proves Sony is lacking in one area or the other when it comes to producing a conventional DSLR. That translates into a big unknown for their full-frame DSLR. 
2. Get the lenses on par with Canon & Nikon. What's a camera system without proper lenses to max out its potential? At this moment, NEX7 is heavily relying on lenses manufactured by others, like Leica. It is accetable for now with an adapter but what does that tell you about Sony as a brand? Is that the kind of company people wanna invest money into? There's no easy way to do this and it will take a long time.

Personally, I would not bother with a Sony full-frame even if it's priced at $2000. I have invested in Canon's gears and I have no intention of switching unless my disposable income just shoots off the roof so that I can buy Sony stuff on the side. Just like the CPU racing between AMD and Intel, AMD came up strong at one point but seems to have dialed down a bit these days. Nevertheless, the end result is that competition has created a whole bunch of happy consumers . 



> If a 24-70 f/2.8L replacement is announced next year, then it will probably initially be made available to 1D X buyers only, but I can't see it bundled with a 5D Mk.II replacement -it would be too expensive.



Agreed. Besides, every kit lens so far has IS.


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## Arkarch (Dec 14, 2011)

traveller said:


> Arkarch said:
> 
> 
> > Nice catch. I am expecting a "hard bundle" for the first shipments and a new 24-70L would make a bunch of sense.
> ...



You may be right about that. But what a way to introduce in a two-for-one; and really, it is one of major workhorse lenses 5D owners will likely have.

Personally I still want a 17-40 bundle (or 16-35 if that made bundling sense) to replace my 10-22 when I finally go FF. I got the 24-105 already, like I need another one just to buy the camera.



traveller said:


> Arkarch said:
> 
> 
> > Canon needs a major announcement at CES. Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press.
> ...



That Canon is co-op marketing flyers in regional markets with the 7D and 5DMarkII suggests that Canon sees them partially as a consumer (or at very least semi-pro) offering. Both shows arguably make sense - but CES is the bigger bang for the wider press coverage imo - you can get a Canon 5DMarkIII on CNET, CNBC, Today Show etc - and they can then may sneak a mention new lenses and the 1DX into that (though arguably the point-n-shoots will still attract the most attention). At the same time, I can not see the 1DX or C300 making any sort of press dent at CES, other than as a "what you can aspire to" trophy - much more of a Photokina / hard industry-only item. 



michael6liu said:


> Personally, I would not bother with a Sony full-frame even if it's priced at $2000. I have invested in Canon's gears and I have no intention of switching unless my disposable income just shoots off the roof so that I can buy Sony stuff on the side. Just like the CPU racing between AMD and Intel, AMD came up strong at one point but seems to have dialed down a bit these days. Nevertheless, the end result is that competition has created a whole bunch of happy consumers .



Agreed. Sony has a mountain to climb; so they need to be competitive. And they have lots of convincing to get me to part with a lens investment.


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## JR (Dec 15, 2011)

So all this could seem consistant with some other reports can Canon is looking into a high MP camera meaning it will not be the next EOS body launch. This might also suggest that if they release a high MP camera it might be more pro level (between the 5D and 1D or even a new verison of the 1D) and I recall many poeple on this forum asking for such pro level high MP camera, so this might be a good news, just with a prooduct lauch a little later then some would prefer.

Now for the 5DIII, I would buy one even if the sensor is 18MP because I would assume that the new sensor is several generation more advance than the current 21MP of the 5DII so in effect in image quality we might all be winners here. As long as we have real life resolution, ability to crop and still get amazing picture because you have enought resolution, then we should not be worried no! 

Now for pricing, a lot of folks seem to have strong opinion about the new camera pricing for the 5DIII. For me at least for the "upgrade" market, I think pricing is less important. What I mean by that is weither the price is $2200 or $2800 for example, if the 5DIII is better than the 5DII, I will by it anyway. We all have so much invested in lenses, that I dont think our price elasticity is very high!

My two cents anyway...The wait is killing me! I just want more new gadgets!


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## Wahoowa (Dec 15, 2011)

My ambition is really low. 

My wish list for 5D3:

- Improved & cleaner sensor at high ISO (1+ stop improvement over 5D2)
- 19 cross-type AF points,
- weather seal,
- LP-E6 battery pack (If they update it, just make it compatible with 7D/60D and vice versa.), and
- SD/CF slots,
- f-stop adjustable in Av mode for video (just like 5D2, whereas 7D/60D just have either full auto or full manual mode).

If 5D3 comes out with that for $2,600-$2,700, I'll buy it in a heartbeat.


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## Minnesota Nice (Dec 15, 2011)

Wahoowa said:


> My ambition is really low.
> 
> My wish list for 5D3:
> 
> ...



I'm sure it will be using that XQD card by the time it's released.


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## michael6liu (Dec 15, 2011)

Wahoowa said:


> My ambition is really low.
> 
> My wish list for 5D3:
> 
> ...



I like the first 4 points but I'm a bit greedy on ISO! 2 stops would be nice! After all these years and only a mere 1 stop increase will sure let down a lot of people. 
Throw in a wireless flash control and I don't care about SD slot or video function.


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## skitron (Dec 15, 2011)

Good news everyone waiting for the 5D3, it's announcement should happen within the next week since I finally gave up waiting on it and bit on a 5D2. Such is my luck.

Adorama has body + Canon USA warranty for $2K bundled with a Slinger bag and Red Giant Magic Bullet PhotoLooks, Text Anarchy and Knoll Light Factory for Photoshop. 

I need to do some advertising shots for my business websites as well as a series of videos and the bundled software definitely made me bite on this deal. I'm a huge Red Giant fan for their video plugins. And best of all it will get written off this tax year, despite the high likelyhood the 5D3 will appear very soon now that I bit on the old one...


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## AG (Dec 15, 2011)

Wahoowa said:


> My ambition is really low.
> 
> My wish list for 5D3:
> 
> ...



- Would like to see ISO raised by 2+
- AF agreed
- Sealing agreed
- Battery AND Body the same/similar so we can still use the BG-E6 also would be nice. Otherwise I'm just moving all my LP-E6 batteries over to my old 60D.
- Would like to keep the CF card format, One of the cut downs from the 1DX could be single not Dual CF, so that could work.
- Disagree, Learn to use manual mode


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## michael6liu (Dec 15, 2011)

dilbert said:


> michael6liu said:
> 
> 
> > I would not hold my breath for 5dIII to be $2000. It will be around $2500-3000 when released. The recent price drop on 5dII has more to do with retailers during holiday season than anything. It might even go up slightly early next year until 5dIII announcement. Hopefully around CES, but more likely to be Photokina.
> ...



OK. I get it you're a BIG fan of Sony. So what exactly are you doing here on a Canon Rumor forum? Trying to persuade people to join your cause?


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## LimeTapse (Dec 15, 2011)

I still think Canon has to respond with a sub $2K FF with cutting edge low light capabilities when I see stuff like DP's just-today released review of $1300 Sony NEX7 that now "in terms of out-and-out image quality probably the best APS-C camera yet, regardless of size" and "offering excellent high ISO performance for low light work, with quite usable results up to ISO 6400".

How will this compare with the 5MDII? Could a similar challenge of improved low light performance come from a $1800 Sony FF if they bring one out soon? Or a $2000 Pentax FF (isn't the APS-C K5's low light performance 'close' to the 5DMII)? How will a $900 Rebel T4i with Digic 5 hold up - might it be within a half stop (the 7D sensor is only a stop worse)?

That's why Canon can't price their least expensive NEW bottom-of-the-line FF at $2700, or $3500 for that matter (it almost seems that some on here don't want to see a <2K Canon FF... is that a case of 'keep the FFs out of the hands of the masses' attitude, or a case of 'I had to pay $3200 for my first FF, you should too').

Competition drives prices down, economies of scale drive prices down, a maturing market segment drives prices down. IIRC, the 5d came to market around $3299, and the 5DMII at $600 less, I am convinced they can do a 'lighter build' FF with cutting-edge low light capabilities for $1899.

And now they might just have to!


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## wickidwombat (Dec 15, 2011)

i just really really want a pro build FF with no integrated grip battery life now in modern LI batteries is fine the grip is just un-necessary bulk. We need something more like nikons D700 and upcoming D800. I'm not interested in a FF rebel no feature plastic fantastic but i dont begrudge anyone for wanting such a camera, I guess there would be some concern from a business standpoint that a cheap FF might canibalise sale on the higher end ones, maybe they are still smarting from the 5D2 cutting the legs out from under the 1Ds3


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## jweu (Dec 15, 2011)

wickidwombat said:


> i just really really want a pro build FF with no integrated grip battery life now in modern LI batteries is fine the grip is just un-necessary bulk. We need something more like nikons D700 and upcoming D800. I'm not interested in a FF rebel no feature plastic fantastic but i dont begrudge anyone for wanting such a camera, I guess there would be some concern from a business standpoint that a cheap FF might canibalise sale on the higher end ones, maybe they are still smarting from the 5D2 cutting the legs out from under the 1Ds3


I agree and think: If lenses are sharp enough for 18MP crop sensor, there lenses should be good enough for 45MP FF. So why not more Pixels at 3 images per second? Unfortunetly Canon is not reporting MTF with with 60 and 100 Linepairs per mm.


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## torger (Dec 15, 2011)

I hope they make the 7D2 a "mini 1DX", focused on superior speed AF and low light capability for the APS-C format, and keep the good build quality. I'd like to see a reduction rather than increase in megapixels -- leave the high MP count to full format (I'd love a 5Dmk3 with 36+ megapixels) and possibly lower end APS-C -- and let the "pro" APS-C camera 7D2 be an action/wildlife camera, 12 megapixels with improved noise performance would be nice.

I think it will be a smart move to have like today that 7D and 5D are complementary, so you want to own them both.


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## whatta (Dec 15, 2011)

torger said:


> I hope they make the 7D2 a "mini 1DX", focused on superior speed AF and low light capability for the APS-C format, and keep the good build quality. I'd like to see a reduction rather than increase in megapixels -- leave the high MP count to full format (I'd love a 5Dmk3 with 36+ megapixels) and possibly lower end APS-C -- and let the "pro" APS-C camera 7D2 be an action/wildlife camera, 12 megapixels with improved noise performance would be nice.
> 
> I think it will be a smart move to have like today that 7D and 5D are complementary, so you want to own them both.


+1, except no more MP into low end apsc


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## nightbreath (Dec 15, 2011)

RayS2121 said:


> Even with lower stats, 1DX buyers spending a whopping ~$7000 will be pissed off if the sensor, the central feature, the brain is the same with a cheaper cousin that is already announced. From a marketing point of view, this is *no* way for them to sell enough 1DX and they won't do it!



Agree. There's no way Canon is going down in MPx count for 5D and using the same sensor as 1D X. This would cause loosing high MPx buyers if it is not 21+ or loosing 1D X buyers if it is 18 MPx. However they can bring out a 1D IV similar sensor (some changes might be applied) and give people ~27 MPx on a full-frame.


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## Jettatore (Dec 15, 2011)

With the economy the way it is, shortening a product's life cycle is the exact opposite thing any developer should be thinking about. My bet is that 7D II doesn't see an actual shelf till the very end of 2012 or early 2013. 5D Mark III is due for release some-time in 2012. A side by side announcement or release of these two cameras (while it may very well happen) just doesn't make any sense. The 5D Mark II and original 7D were released about a year apart from each other and it would make more sense that they will continue with that trend, it worked, really well for them.

At any rate, I'm planning to upgrade to 5D Mark III (or equivalent if they end up releasing two 5D sized upgraded bodies with different names) in 2012, and 7D Mark II in 2013 or later especially I can snag it at a reduced price/find a good deal on a used copy, I'm pretty happy with the 7D as it is.


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## whatta (Dec 15, 2011)

Jettatore said:


> With the economy the way it is, shortening a product's life cycle is the exact opposite thing any developer should be thinking about.


true, but if they reuse sensor, af, digic like they do so, development is less camera by camera but more generations by generations.


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## motorhead (Dec 15, 2011)

I don't see the 18 MP 1Dx having a long life span. Canon had to produce something for the Olympics next year and this they have done. However good the camera proves to be in other areas for the photojournalists and sports togs, 18 MP is not enough in the long term to replace the higher quality 1Ds mk3.


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## KeithR (Dec 15, 2011)

minestrone said:


> I understand that the larger the MP count the more it suffers from ISO noise.


Then you _don't_ understand, I'm afraid. It simply doesn't work like that.


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## KeithR (Dec 15, 2011)

dilbert said:


> Why does the A77 sensor need improving? It is better than any Canon APS-C sensor.


Oh, _please!_ the A77's sensor is a piece of crap, and if my 7D wasn't _eminently_ able to stomp all over it - and it is - I'd throw my camera in the river.

You clearly haven't done _any_ side-by-side testing of A77 files against the Canon sensor, or you couldn't possibly believe what you wrote.


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## KeithR (Dec 15, 2011)

dilbert said:


> Or are we all stupid enough to buy anything that Canon trots out just because it has the name Canon on it?


Based on the available evidence _you_ might be, but I buy Canon gear because it's the best all-round solution by far for my photographic needs...


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## match14 (Dec 15, 2011)

KeithR said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Why does the A77 sensor need improving? It is better than any Canon APS-C sensor.
> ...



+1


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## existent (Dec 15, 2011)

If D800 rumors are true and it will be 36mp, I can't see canon releasing a second 18mpx body as the only option. But I can see it being two different cameras as it has been suggested many times before.

If they announce a 18mpx 5DmkIII, and D800 is announced as 36mpx, canon will lose lot of sales. (not necessariliy jumping ship, but people simply won't buy it). 

Only way a 18mpx ff camera will be announced first is with a new name. I can see a new body, say 6D, being announced as a ff 18mpx, high iso, great af FF camera priced at or under $2000. This way, people can still think that a 5D with a higher mpx may be coming as well.

Otherwise, I think next ff camera from canon will be a high mpx camera, call it 5dmkIII or 3D, and it will be priced $3000 minimum. 

There is easily enough gap between 7D and 1DX to fit 2 ff cameras. Having a $2k ff camera will be great for marketing, attracting newcomers and stealing customers from likes of sony. 

And lets be honest, 18mpx FF camera will be more than enough for your average prosumer... even for landscapes. If you are really dedicated and want the highest mpx you can get, then you wouldn't mind investing a bit more and going for a higher mpx alternative at around $3k... 

So to summarise, I think there are enough room for 2 FF cameras - one cheaper more general purpose, and one more specialised and more expensive. 

And just to remind again, I am basing all this to the fact that D800 will be high megapixel.


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## whatta (Dec 15, 2011)

existent said:


> So to summarise, I think there are enough room for 2 FF cameras - one cheaper more general purpose, and one more specialised and more expensive.


I agree, a relaively cheap FF (called 6d?) would definitelly have market.. I was considering, but I've invested too much in efs. Anyway next year a new body for me, hoping for a good 650d, I will not wait one more year (like for the 70d).


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## Maui5150 (Dec 15, 2011)

I am not sure the demand will be as big. 

You a lot of people are in the bigger is better category, but say 36 MP versus 21MP is 1.7x greater. That means your 32GB card you are used to shooting is now a 19GB card for all intent and purposes.

Will the Nikon allow us to have multiple levels of Raw? i.e. an 18MP Raw and a 36MP Raw.

I can see a lot of people who will need that high of resolution, but I think for many that size might start to get too cumbersome.


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## seacritter (Dec 15, 2011)

You understand that this camera will never be released until I buy the current 5D MarkII

Soooo... If you ever want to see this camera, you can all pitch in and pick me up the current 5D Mark II... I guarantee that it will come out the day after I receive the Mark II...


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## Wahoowa (Dec 15, 2011)

AG said:


> Wahoowa said:
> 
> 
> > My ambition is really low.
> ...



It's not like I don't know how to do video in manual mode. But, it's just like still, much of the time it's convenient to use Av mode. Also, in video mode, it's not like we can adjust exposure conveniently without shaking the camera.


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## jbwise01 (Dec 15, 2011)

dilbert said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > > And I dont think the Mark III will canabolize the 1DX. If you have $6800 to spend on a camera, you are way beyond the Mark III announcement...
> ...



Thats the best Answer i've found to answer the question about cannablizing the 1Dx market.

I hope most people realize the 5D3 and 1Dx aren't in the same market to begin with. There is some overlap.. yes.. but the 1Dx is gives you 3 times the capabilitiy to "capture the moment" with Higher FPS and get it market with data transfer capabilities. Of all the cameras that would eat into the 1Dx market, the 7D2 would be the one canon should worry about eating 1Dx market share, the lack of FF will probably keep that separartion clear.

I would think the 5D3 would be marketed to sell in mass quantity in an attempt by canon to overtyake the FF market. For this some features will be scaled back and it seems logical that canon would have a slim profit margin for this cam. I expect a $2499 price point with 2 digic 5's an 18 MP sensor, greatly improved ISO (for video perfromance mainly) and slight improvement in AF.


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## pedro (Dec 15, 2011)

jbwise01 said:


> I would think the 5D3 would be marketed to sell in mass quantity in an attempt by canon to overtyake the FF market. For this some features will be scaled back and it seems logical that canon would have a slim profit margin for this cam. I expect a $2499 price point with 2 digic 5's an 18 MP sensor, greatly improved ISO (for video perfromance mainly) and slight improvement in AF.



I hope this cam will materialize. Seems about perfect to me. Even if the price tag is more towards 3k. 18 MP and fine ISO's. That's all my photography needs.


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## lol (Dec 15, 2011)

I can now state with confidence the 5D3, whatever it will be, will be out very soon. How? Because I just put in an order for the 5D2...


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## jweu (Dec 15, 2011)

mathino said:


> Well, I dont think Canon will announce both of them at the same time. I bet on 5D Mk III announced around summer time and 7D Mk II announced in september (if it will be).
> 
> I think that 5D Mk III wont be announced in January - before 1D-X becomes available. Depends of course on specs but it doesnt make much sense for me. They need to roll out 1 pro camera and see the numbers and response to know when they should pop out with new "affordable" FF - even if this is case when 5D Mk III will be 30+ Mpx and worse AF from 1D-X. They need to figure out with which specs (especially sensor) to bail out into production. Also they still have good numbers on current 5D Mk II so there is no rush for them. Maybe Nikon will change the game a bit with D700 successor but there is no info on that body.



Right, the announcement of 5D Mk III will come more than Â½year after 1D-X is available. I hope, 5D Mk III is 30+ Mpx with High ISO at 20Mpx "low resolution" images.


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## jweu (Dec 15, 2011)

The modern sensors have more than 100 line pairs per mm, why don't we see any MTF data reflecting the resolution of the sensors? Why there is no vigentting information from Canon? Does Canon think we are not able to read technical data? It's unbeleavable!


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## Jettatore (Dec 15, 2011)

seacritter said:


> You understand that this camera will never be released until I buy the current 5D MarkII
> 
> Soooo... If you ever want to see this camera, you can all pitch in and pick me up the current 5D Mark II... I guarantee that it will come out the day after I receive the Mark II...



Hahahhahahaahah. I'll toss in three bucks for that effort, and I believe it too.


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## tt (Dec 15, 2011)

Does anyone have a historical perspective of previous launches/announcements around Photokina lens & specifically camera wise?


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## Zuuyi (Dec 15, 2011)

Things that won't happen.
Sub $2k 5d3.
Dual Digic 5(+) 5d3.

7d2 will have Dual Digic 5 & will be sub 2k. But not a 5d3.


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## Edwin Herdman (Dec 16, 2011)

RayS2121 said:


> Canon can easily ride out the first half of the year on 1DX news as Nikon is playing catch up with 16mp D4 just to answer 1DX. Even if they come in quickly with D800, canon has time till Summer or Fall 2012 before the pressure mounts.


These are different markets, and if Canon waits too long they'll end up second fiddle themselves.

We don't have any real data yet on the performance of the 1D X or the D4, but in reality it doesn't really matter much for those of us who won't be using those cameras.

What I think is more important is to notice that Nikon's V1 seems to have good medium to high ISO performance; so too does the Sony NEX-7. In fact their ISO performance seems close to par, or maybe even better than, some DSLRs from just a couple years ago, and in the case of the NEX-7 this is coupled with a 24MP sensor.

In short, the competition is moving quickly and so must Canon.


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## motorhead (Dec 16, 2011)

Traditionally Canon have always been last to respond to any change. But that has traditionally meant that the response has been better considered than other products, so I personally have no problem with Canon taking their time over a high MP D800 response.

We also need to consider that Japanese industry tends to be conservative and that the country is still recovering from the after effects of the Tsunami.


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## CarebbianTraveler (Dec 16, 2011)

My guess is:
APS-C cameras (7D2, T4i, 70D) get a 24MP sensor with minor other changes. T4i will arrive in February, the 7D2 later
-> A new Rebel is announced every year, and last year was the first time they haven't changed the sensor.
-> No clue about the 7D product cycle, probably 3 years as the 5D had

The 5D3 will get a >30MP sensor and some other improvements like AF and weather sealing. Announced in September
-> The 5D2 targets studio and landscape photographers, and most of them would like more MP

A new 18MP FF EVIL
I haven't heard much about a EVIL rumor in the last time, but I still believe in it. In the mean time the market is flooded with them and pretty much all sensor sized are available, except an affordable full frame camera. For lots of people their camera is a status symbol, and this would be the top of it. Besides that it would take great pictures ;-)


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## Arkarch (Dec 17, 2011)

Yeah I am in the 18 MP-likely 5DMarkIII camp with earlier announce; but

I have been mulling over an evil thought that the 1DX is the "London" camera, timed more to happen when key sports photographers / publications are in buying mode for the 2012 Olympics. And that the 5DMarkIII would come later in the year at a to-be-disclosed moderately higher MP.

I dunno.... Canon - give us a clue! Even a 'careless' comment to help guide us in this windless ocean.


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## tt (Dec 18, 2011)

I'd imagine Photokina next year we should know a lot more. In the meantime - wouldn't the 650D announcement in only 2 months or so give us an indication of how scroogeworthy they'll be with the more prosumer -> high end lines below the 1DX?


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## motorhead (Dec 18, 2011)

Arkarch,

I reckon you calling the 1Dx the "London" or "Olympics" camera is exactly right. Its designed exclusively for the photojournalist/sports togs with no thought for the studio/landscape "fine art" users at all.

It's a lovely camera, just not for me.


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