# Basic questions about shooting in low light



## kat.hayes (Sep 22, 2016)

I'm very new to photography and am using a 5DM3 and a f2.8 lens. I'm trying to shoot some photos with low light indoors and outdoors in shutter priority mode. I choose a shutter around 1/1000 and an ISO around 800 and the photos are dark. 

1. Is the right way to handle this to just boost my ISO to very high levels to get my shot, even with the potential of noise? Is there anything else I can try?
2. Is the only other way around boosting the ISO with a high shutter speed to use a flash or some studio lighting?
3. Does the same concept apply when shooting in aperature priority mode. With low light and at f2.8 indoors, the photo is dark. Is the only way to handle this to boost the ISO way high?

Thanks.


----------



## Random Orbits (Sep 22, 2016)

You've fixed too many constraints: aperture, shutter speed and ISO. There is no other variable to allow a change in exposure than the one you've set, and the one you've set doesn't allow enough light to reach the sensor so you're getting dark results.

People will approach this situation differently. I prefer setting aperture and adjust the ISO to get the minimum acceptable shutter speed. Others prefer setting the aperture and shutter speed and letting to the ISO float (auto ISO).

To allow more light to reach the sensor, you either have to add light (flash) or use a lens with a larger aperture (fast prime). Or you have to increase the ISO. 800 is low for low ambient light. 3200, 6400 or 12800 are relatively common but the quality of the image suffers (including the effects of noise). That is when a flash can be helpful and allow you to shoot at lower ISOs.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 22, 2016)

1/1000 sec is extremely fast for low light, but, if that's what you need, you will need to increase the ISO by a very large amount. In low light, I try to keep my shutter below 1/160 for moving subjects, and even then, ISO can reach 25600 at f/2.8.


----------



## rpt (Sep 22, 2016)

Random Orbits said:


> You've fixed too many constraints: aperture, shutter speed and ISO. There is no other variable to allow a change in exposure than the one you've set, and the one you've set doesn't allow enough light to reach the sensor so you're getting dark results.
> 
> People will approach this situation differently. I prefer setting aperture and adjust the ISO to get the minimum acceptable shutter speed. Others prefer setting the aperture and shutter speed and letting to the ISO float (auto ISO).
> 
> To allow more light to reach the sensor, you either have to add light (flash) or use a lens with a larger aperture (fast prime). Or you have to increase the ISO. 800 is low for low ambient light. 3200, 6400 or 12800 are relatively common but the quality of the image suffers (including the effects of noise). That is when a flash can be helpful and allow you to shoot at lower ISOs.


+1

I set shutter speed and aperture and set ISO to Auto. Depending on the shot you are taking, like @Random Orbits says, I have found that lost values upto 12800 are acceptable. I don't have too many shots at 25600 but the ones I have are too grainy for me. However they convert to great B&W shots if there is sufficient contrast


----------



## applecider (Sep 22, 2016)

If you give the forum members a little more information you may get better answers.

What are you shooting, and why is a one one thousandth of a second needed? What is the current illumination, should it be modified? What distance and which lens are you using, is it a repeatable event?

If you're asking a basic exposure question then maybe wiki and study "the exposure triangle.".


----------



## Valvebounce (Sep 22, 2016)

Hi Kat. 
Random Orbits has said you fixed too many things, you are possibly thinking "but the aperture was not fixed as it was in shutter priority" and theoretically you would be correct, in more light the aperture would close to correct the exposure, it is the lack of light that has essentially "fixed" the aperture wide open at f2.8. 
I hope this helps you to understand what Random Orbits was explaining. 
Other than that everything Random Orbits says is correct. 

Cheers, Graham. 



kat.hayes said:


> I'm very new to photography and am using a 5DM3 and a f2.8 lens. I'm trying to shoot some photos with low light indoors and outdoors in shutter priority mode. I choose a shutter around 1/1000 and an ISO around 800 and the photos are dark.
> 
> 1. Is the right way to handle this to just boost my ISO to very high levels to get my shot, even with the potential of noise? Is there anything else I can try?
> 2. Is the only other way around boosting the ISO with a high shutter speed to use a flash or some studio lighting?
> ...


----------



## brad-man (Sep 22, 2016)

A useful read on the subject is_ Understanding Exposure, 3rd Edition: How to Shoot Great Photographs with Any Camera_ by Bryan Peterson. You can pick up a used copy for cheap on Amazon or ebay.


----------



## kat.hayes (Sep 22, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the responses! It sounds like I am simply shooting with too fast of a shutter speed. Like I mentioned, I am very new to this, so pardon my ignorance. I also was not clear on how high I should go with the ISO.

1. Is there a way to know how fast of a shutter you need based on the type of motion you are trying to capture, or is this just something that comes with experience? In this case I am simply trying to capture the motion of kids playing, running, etc.
2. For clarification, it was mentioned that ISO for inside ambient light is often set at 3200, 6400, and 12800. Is 12800 the highest level before noise becomes more visible? 
Thanks!


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 22, 2016)

kat.hayes said:


> Thanks everyone for the responses! It sounds like I am simply shooting with too fast of a shutter speed. Like I mentioned, I am very new to this, so pardon my ignorance. I also was not clear on how high I should go with the ISO.
> 
> 1. Is there a way to know how fast of a shutter you need based on the type of motion you are trying to capture, or is this just something that comes with experience? In this case I am simply trying to capture the motion of kids playing, running, etc.
> 2. For clarification, it was mentioned that ISO for inside ambient light is often set at 3200, 6400, and 12800. Is 12800 the highest level before noise becomes more visible?
> Thanks!



Firstly, tolerance of noise is a personal preference - I find I can use my 6D up to 6400 in some circumstances and be happy with some images that others find intolerable. You may also find that images with a high level of detail you can get away with a level of noise that would be too obvious with large blank areas (such as blue sky). 
it also depends on the intended need - internet viewing, magazine articles, posters etc. But one thing to bear in mind is that higher ISO reduces your options on recovering shadow detail in post processing and on cropping the image. 
So you have to suck it and see...but my own view is you use whatever ISO is needed to get the image - with no image you have no options at all. 

One other play-off is that noise is due to the ratio of signal (the light forming the image) and noise (artefects inherent in the camera circuitry). The higher the signal:noise ratio the less obvious noise will be. Sometimes is it better to set a higher ISO and slightly overexpose the image than it is to use a lower ISO. Again, experiment and see what you think is acceptable.



As for shutter speed, this may help to set a target 
http://www.techradar.com/how-to/photography-video-capture/cameras/best-shutter-speeds-for-every-situation-1320937


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 22, 2016)

kat.hayes said:


> 1. Is there a way to know how fast of a shutter you need based on the type of motion you are trying to capture, or is this just something that comes with experience? In this case I am simply trying to capture the motion of kids playing, running, etc.



For my kids just playing, I usually use 1/250 s which stops most motion (there will sometimes be blur of a hand/foot which is moving faster than body/head). In more specifically active situations, e.g. gymnastics or dance, I will often need 1/800 s or so to stop motion.




kat.hayes said:


> 2. For clarification, it was mentioned that ISO for inside ambient light is often set at 3200, 6400, and 12800. Is 12800 the highest level before noise becomes more visible?



That depends a lot on how you shoot, process and view your images. If you shoot RAW and process with a good RAW converter that handles high ISO well (I use DxO Optical Pro), a fair amount of noise can be reduced without substantial loss of detail. ISO 12800 should generally fine; I go up to 25600 on my 1D X, which delivers slightly better noise performance than the 5DIII. If you only plan to view images with substantial downsampling (e.g. sharing 1-2 MP images on the internet), you can go even higher for ISO settings.


----------



## Random Orbits (Sep 22, 2016)

kat.hayes said:


> Thanks everyone for the responses! It sounds like I am simply shooting with too fast of a shutter speed. Like I mentioned, I am very new to this, so pardon my ignorance. I also was not clear on how high I should go with the ISO.
> 
> 1. Is there a way to know how fast of a shutter you need based on the type of motion you are trying to capture, or is this just something that comes with experience? In this case I am simply trying to capture the motion of kids playing, running, etc.
> 2. For clarification, it was mentioned that ISO for inside ambient light is often set at 3200, 6400, and 12800. Is 12800 the highest level before noise becomes more visible?
> Thanks!



For kids in motion, I like to keep it 1/200s or faster. If they're posing, then I can drop it to around 1/60s. For indoor stuff, I tend to use a fast prime and sometimes a flash.

Noise will become more visible the higher the ISO, but it is subjective as to how much of it is acceptable. You should experiment with it to see how much you're willing to accept. I try to keep it at ISO 3200 or below, but if it has to go to 6400 or 12800 then that is what it is. IQ will decrease but a shot is better than no shot. In some cases you can bounce the flash off the ceiling and get acceptable light on the subject and drop your ISO. Higher ISOs will increase noise and decrease dynamic range which affects color quality and the "editability" of the picture. Pictures taken in low light with high ISOs will require getting exposure right because the editability decreases so much.

The nice thing about digital is that you can get feedback quickly. Experiment! You'll develop a feel for what is acceptable to you soon.


----------



## tolusina (Sep 22, 2016)

Two terms to google;
"Exposure basics"
and
"Exposure triangle".
You'll find hundreds, more likely thousands of tutorials, each written in its author's unique perspective and style yet they all arrive at identical conclusions.
Some will read like gibberish to you, you'll find the "AHA" moment you seek and need in another. Spend no time on those that make no sense to you from the beginning, it's easy to find one that fits your thought processes.

- - -
Briefly and generally, for any given media (film or digital) sensitivity (ISO), a proper exposure always requires the same amount of light.
But, lighting conditions are highly variable, generally unique to each setting.

To let more light in when less is available, increase the lens opening (aperture, smaller f-number) or increase the length of time the shutter is open.
Do the opposite under brighter lighting conditions.

Along with those considerations, the balance of the triangle you select affects depth of field and motion stopping.

Under some lighting conditions, triangle settings will be at their limits, one then has to accept depth of field and motion stopping as they are.


----------



## takesome1 (Sep 22, 2016)

Kat

You received advice, but if you got the best advice in your situation I do not know. You didn't provide enough information. First off when the light goes it is all about compromise. If you are talking a 400mm f/2.8 with IS you might get away with a 1/400 or 1/200 shutter speed. If you are using a 35mm I have gotten away with a 1/20 hand held shooting static objects. But that is too slow if something is moving. So the wider the lens the lower you can go and get a decent shot. Even at 1/20 with three shots only one may be stable enough.

I know also that he highest ISO I would really want would be 3200 on the body you are talking about. Above this you start seeing to much noise. Then you have to look at the lens you are using. Your aperture gets wider as it gets darker until you get to f/2.8. But with some lenses wide open I wouldn't be pleased at f/2.8 with the results. So can you go to f/2.8 and get decent results, probably depending on the lens.

Here are examples. I recently shot at night with my 35mm. I know my limits are 1/20, f/1.6 and iso3200. At 1/10 almost always has too much shake. I was able to shoot with moon light most of the night. But when I go out shooting wildlife I know my limits with my 500mm are 1/500, f/4 and iso 1600 even off a tripod. I am usually out of the field about 10 minutes before sunset.

So the wider the lens, the slower the shutter speed you can use and the later you can shoot.
The wider the usable aperture, the faster the shutter speed you can use.
The higher the acceptable ISO the faster the shutter speed you can use.
It all comes down compromising the aperture and iso to get a faster shutter speed.


----------



## mackguyver (Sep 22, 2016)

kat.hayes said:


> I'm very new to photography and am using a 5DM3 and a f2.8 lens. I'm trying to shoot some photos with low light indoors and outdoors in shutter priority mode. I choose a shutter around 1/1000 and an ISO around 800 and the photos are dark.
> 
> 1. Is the right way to handle this to just boost my ISO to very high levels to get my shot, even with the potential of noise? Is there anything else I can try?
> 2. Is the only other way around boosting the ISO with a high shutter speed to use a flash or some studio lighting?
> ...


I have done a lot of low light shooting, so let me share a few things. 
*First of all, while f/2.8 is fast for a zoom, it's still pretty slow for low light shooting. Fast primes f/2 and under will give you best results. 
*With Canon cameras and their current sensors, it's best to get a proper exposure in camera vs. pushing the photo in post (i.e. your dark photos). This results in less noise in the final photo.
*While Shutter Priority may feel comfortable, you will get much better results in Manual mode. Set your shutter for the subject (at least 1/60s for stationary or slow moving people, 1/100s minimum for things like dance, and 1/250s-1/500s for most sports shots, though 1/1000s may be necessary for high speed stuff. 
*It often takes a handful of test shots in M mode to get the exposure right, just leave the aperture wide open and tweak the shutter speed
*Use Auto ISO if you can get away with it
*With the 5DIII, if you use manual ISO, ISO 6400 is about the top you'll want to use
*If you have changing lighting like stage shots, use M, set manual ISO, and a medium shutter speed. Dial back & forth between slower and faster shutter speeds to adjust exposure
*If you have mixed lighting like in a theatre, either set a custom WB for the primary source, or set it to Daylight for best results as most white stage lights are between 5000-6500K
*Adding flash is a whole other discussion, but if you do, make sure you set the Flash Sync setting to 1/60-1/250s. If you leave it on Auto and use anything other than P mode, you'll end up with really slower shutter speeds as the camera will be exposing for the unlit scene. I still make this mistake sometimes when I switch back and forth. 
*On the flash part, bounce flash will generally give you nice results unless the ceiling is quite high, colored something other than white, or if you are outdoors, of course.

If you tell us a bit more about what you're shooting, we can give you more specific advice.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 22, 2016)

And this is where personal preferences come in.

I agree with a lot of your points but will comment on the following couple of points: 



 mackguyver said:


> *While Shutter Priority may feel comfortable, you will get much better results in Manual mode. Shutter priority or Aperture priority used in conjunction with the exposure compensation dial gives precisely the same flexibility as manual mode and (for me anyway) is easier to think about on the fly. Manual can be scary for people new to the skillsSet your shutter for the subject (at least 1/60s for stationary or slow moving people, 1/100s minimum for things like dance, and 1/250s-1/500s for most sports shots, though 1/1000s may be necessary for high speed stuff.
> *With the 5DIII, if you use manual ISO, ISO 6400 is about the top you'll want to use Is this specific to manual mode? As has been said above, no reason to limit yourself to 6400 and it depends on the intended use. Do you have specific demands regards noise?
> *If you have changing lighting like stage shots, use M, set manual ISO, and a medium shutter speed. Dial back & forth between slower and faster shutter speeds to adjust exposure Why not set your preferred aperture/speed and use auto ISO - or is that because of the risk you see of it exceeding 6400?
> Also, above you say set the shutter speed for the circumstances yet here you are effectively saying set the aperture? Is this specific to the situation of changing lighting?


----------



## Besisika (Sep 22, 2016)

Most probably you are going to get 100 answers for this.
That's because lowlight shooting is an art in itself.

My suggestion is to go and play with it.
Neuro's suggestion is a good starting point.

I am a hardcore manual shooter. I chimp a lot even though I am a sport photographer, that is because I want changes all the time, even when I shoot in the same place under same conditions.

Simple example: when I want to shot two players colliding to one another my shutter speed is above 1/1000sec, when I track a player just dribbling - my shutter speed is around 1/200sec, when I shoot a non moving player my shutter speed is 1/100sec. My head is doing the math constantly, when changing the ISO to balance the shutter speed - in manual mode all the time.
When I want more blurs I lower it, when I want more crisp - I increase it and I change it hundreds of a time during a full game.

But that just me and my shooting style. You have to discover what you like and the only way for you to know what you like is pre-shoot - by shooting for fun before the actual photo shoot, and vary it, you never know what you will discover, most of all when you are new: don't be afraid to make mistakes.


----------



## mnclayshooter (Sep 22, 2016)

Random Orbits said:


> The nice thing about digital is that you can get feedback quickly. Experiment! You'll develop a feel for what is acceptable to you soon.




This +1. I second the need for some experimentation to learn your gear. If you have a yard with critters in it, try going outside at dusk and shooting some shots of rabbits, birds or squirrels and experiment with the settings. Or test some settings out when the kids are just playing before bedtime etc. That way you're not "right in the moment" of an event or circumstance that you won't be able to repeat or get a second chance at. What I'm trying to say is practice when it doesn't matter, so that when it does, you have some basic experience to rely on to get things mostly right. Digital practice is extremely low cost compared to film!


----------



## Boyer U. Klum-Cey (Sep 22, 2016)

Very good question, and very good answers! Makes Forums fun, eh?


----------



## mackguyver (Sep 23, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> And this is where personal preferences come in.
> 
> I agree with a lot of your points but will comment on the following couple of points:
> 
> ...


I agree that everyone has their own style and without knowing more about the OPs subjects and such it's hard to give tailored advice. I also agree that Manual mode is scary, but I have found that Shutter Priority can be quite frustrating for many people. Low light is one of those times when M mode is almost mandatory to get the best shots.

As for ISO 6400, I think that's about the top you would want to use with the 5DIII unless you're just posting stuff on the web. I have personal preferences on noise, but most people seem to generally agree on CR and others that each body kind of has an upper limit that most people are happy with.

And on that final comment, if you have one of the more recent bodies with Auto ISO and the ability to set limits, then yes. M mode just gives you that extra bit of control and if you have the very newest bodies, or a 1D X, you can do M mode plus exposure compensation 

Ultimately, it's all about what the person feels comfortable doing, but those tips have worked well for me and M mode isn't so scary in the digital world because you can experiment without wasting tons of money on film!


----------



## takesome1 (Sep 23, 2016)

mackguyver said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > And this is where personal preferences come in.
> ...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 23, 2016)

takesome1 said:


> My biggest fear of M mode is that someday I will see bigfoot running away, grab the camera and click off a few shots, only to realize after he is gone I am 7 or 8 stops under or over exposed. In my excitement and haste I had once again forgot to adjust the settings.



That's why I recommend setting up C3 as your BEAU* Mode – settings along the lines of 1/500 s, f/5.6, and Auto ISO. Then, it's a spin of the dial to the end, and you won't miss the shot.



* Bigfoot, Elvis, Aliens and Unicorns


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 23, 2016)

mackguyver said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > And this is where personal preferences come in.
> ...



I was recently in Canada shooting grizzlies hunting using a 7D2. The weather was variable and at times shooting ISO 6400 to get the shutter speed - any less and the motion blur would make the image useless even for 'memories' but 6400 (even 12800) gave me personal images that I am very happy with. Provided I don't need to crop or recover shadows!!! 
And that, as we obviously agree, is about personal choice and how the image will be used. 

If I wanted to have them printed in a magazine the issue would be very, very different and this is why I think it would be helpful if people put their comments into perspective instead of making bald statement of 'never go above ISO of XXXXX'.

As takesome1 says, one reason I like Av is that after taking a shot the camera is always ready for the next shot (unless I have added significant compensation) especially grab shots and that is not always the case with manual. Even accepting Neuro's comments about using C3, it still depends on remembering to 'spin the dial'....


----------



## takesome1 (Sep 23, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > Mikehit said:
> ...



I think MacGuyver had very good general comments and direction to give to someone with limited experience that asks for advice without giving any detail of the exact situation.

In your bear example concerning the bear and ISO I would likely not be happy with an ISO 6400 shot. (speaking 7D II) There have been instances where I shot at ISO 6400 that the time of day, the lighting and subject gave the picture a special dreamy look. In those situations the fact that I had to shoot at ISO 6400 worked to the common good of the picture. But those are rare exceptions, generaly the pic just has to much noise. 

Even at that the comparison of shooting a 7D II vs shooting with the 5D III at ISO 6400 are not the same. Probably about a stop difference, for instance I said previously I wouldn't be happy above ISO 3200 (refering to the 5D III) this means I wouldn't be happy with the 7D II above ISO 1600. 

My prefrence for DSLR ISO limits come from my experience with DSLR's starting with the 50D and the 5 other type of bodies I have owned since. The best advice for the OP is to shoot at the diffrent ISO's and find his/her preference.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 23, 2016)

As ever in photography, the subject matter is everything. 
If someone got photographic evidence of Elvis Presley riding Shergar down the ramp of a UFO, who would give a crap about whether it was ISO 800 or 12,800? Even Nat Geo wouldn't care. 
I have some photos I will never delete because of the moment they capture even if they are too bad to show anyone else. There are some occasions I regret not taking because at the time I thought 'the ISO will be too high' or 'they are too far off for a decent shot' or some other lame excuse.

Set to Av (or manual) and auto ISO and make the decision later, I say.


----------



## Valvebounce (Sep 23, 2016)

Hi Neuro. 
I like the BEAU mode, took a few seconds before I spotted the small print. 
I thought P or even *[]* were the settings suggested to catch fleeing ladders (a thread a long time ago involving blown evidence shots)? The "camera will always get a shot" settings though not what you might use for more considered shots. 

Cheers, Graham. 



neuroanatomist said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > My biggest fear of M mode is that someday I will see bigfoot running away, grab the camera and click off a few shots, only to realize after he is gone I am 7 or 8 stops under or over exposed. In my excitement and haste I had once again forgot to adjust the settings.
> ...


----------

