# Canon Looking Into a New Mount System



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 22, 2014)

```
<p>According to an interview with Mr Makoto Sakaeta Masaya, the managing director of Canon Image Communication Business Division. Canon is exploring the possibility of a new lens mount. I suspect its application would be for a full frame mirrorless system of some kind.</p>
<p><strong><a href="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20140918_667456.html" target="_blank">Read the Interview</a> (Google Translated)</strong></p>
<p>Source: [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/mirrorless.html" target="_blank">NL</a>] via [<a href="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20140918_667456.html" target="_blank">DCW</a>]</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## docsmith (Sep 22, 2014)

When I first saw this rumor I assumed a smaller sensor. But a FF sensor? Trying to take advantage of of the decreased flange distance with mirrorless? I imagine that could allow for a decrease in the size of the optical elements. 

I have to admit, the thought of a new mount that could someday make my EF gear less valuable is terrifying. Considering I am now mostly set with EF gear, let's hope it still has 2 generations of bodies that work with it.


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## Woody (Sep 22, 2014)

I look at the size and weight of the Sony FE 70-200 f/4 OSS lens designed for their mirrorless A7 family, and I shudder. What's the point of going mirrorless if the telephoto lenses don't shrink in size and weight?

I think I will like to stick to OVF. Thank you very much.


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## Don Haines (Sep 22, 2014)

dilbert said:


> Whoa!
> 
> All those EF, EF-S (and EF-M?) lenses may be about to become dinosaurs like the FD did back in the 80s. I wonder what the perceived design flaw is? Or how does it need to be improved?
> 
> But surely if they're looking at a new mount system then they're also looking at a new style of camera to mount it on, no?



I can see it being something similar to with the EF-M, where you can still use your legacy glass if you have the adaptor mounted to give you the same flange distance....


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## IsaacImage (Sep 22, 2014)

Hopefully it's going to be a -Medium format / Full frame mount.


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## Viggo (Sep 22, 2014)

Replace all three other with one new, Well ok, but please don't be stupid and add a forth, stupid stupid stupid...


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## MintChocs (Sep 22, 2014)

A new mount means more profit for Canon(and if there is one thing you can be sure of, that is Canon always maximises profit), you would have to buy new lenses plus new cameras. They would more than likely make it extremely difficult for third party lens manufacturers to produce lenses for it.


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## moreorless (Sep 22, 2014)

IsaacImage said:


> Hopefully it's going to be a -Medium format / Full frame mount.



That was the first thing that came to mind for me, that Sony CMOS MF sensor does seem to make it more likely that another big player(Sony, Nikon, Fuji, etc) might give MF a try which could well have Canon looking to respond.

If it were a FF mirrorless mount(can the EF-M mount take FF? I remember seeing some analysis that it could) my guess would be that Canon would come up with something similar to the EF-M setup at the moment. Maybe a body that offers a bit more control but generally a system aimed a keeping things small with a handful of compact lenses rather than a full system which would be kept for DSLR's.

One thing I'm starting to wonder as well is whether the cheap EOS M stock in the west isn't just as was first suspected a case of Canon selling unwanted product but rather a direct plan to devalue the mirrorless market? how long has it been since the big EOS M price drops? almost a year? I can see the logic to doing this as it avoids pushing DSLR prices too low whilst Canon don't have to recoup a relatively small investement(by the standard of other companies) in mirrorless. Could they try something similar with FF? introduce a basic beyond below the 6D.


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## Phenix205 (Sep 22, 2014)

Good step forward. The M system is a total flop.


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## fox40phil (Sep 22, 2014)

A mirroless fullframe camera would be so nice! please with a EF adapter with AF.


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## moreorless (Sep 22, 2014)

Phenix205 said:


> Good step forward. The M system is a total flop.



2nd best selling mirrorless camera in Japan last year if I remember correctly, significant seller in the west at its lower price.


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## Bob Howland (Sep 22, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> According to an interview with Mr Makoto Sakaeta Masaya, the managing director of Canon Image Communication Business Division. Canon is exploring the possibility of a new lens mount. I suspect its application would be for a full frame mirrorless system of some kind.



As somebody who lived through the Canon FD to EF mount transition, I would be very surprised if the new mount was for a FF mirrorless system that was incompatible with tens of millions of EF lenses. I can, however, see them reducing the sensor to flange distance to 22-24mm and introducing a series of compatible lenses as well as an adapter to use existing lenses. However, the interview mentioned new communications protocols. Communications are largely a firmware function although it remains to be seen if existing lenses can be reprogrammed to that extent.

The M-mount, with a 58mm throat diameter, is unfortunately not that much smaller than the EF mount. The MFT mount, on the other hand, has a 38mm throat diameter and the NX system a 42mm throat diameter. If Canon wants to imitate these systems then, yes, they might introduce a smaller lens mount.


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## Maximilian (Sep 22, 2014)

WOW!

It seems that finally the big heavy dinosaur is starting to move.
The only thing I can interpret into this rumor is, that they needed to see the success of Sony on FF mirrorless to understand that the customer have already seen the advantages in body and lens size as well as easier and more performant optical design.
If they'll also prevent some EF adaptor for the old lenses to make the system change easier for the current Canon DSLR owners I think the finally did understand the desire of a lot of people in the market.

But even if this is true I still see some time to pass until the system is worth a closer look. 
Not because of performant bodies but because of a system with some really performant lenses. 
But an EF adaptor surely would help here. Although the size advantage would become irrelevant then.


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## Maximilian (Sep 22, 2014)

dilbert said:


> I wonder what the perceived design flaw is? Or how does it need to be improved?


I do not see any kind of design _flaw_ with the actual mounts. Except for EOS M which is not designed for FF.
(That was really a flaw, combined with that possible decision now)

And the improvement is easy to see:
FF mirrorless allows a shorter distance between lens and focus plane.
Therefore you no longer need that retro focus. The optics becomes easier to design and you'll get a design/size advantage. 
With adaptor you still have the possibility to use old EF lenses, like on an EOS M or like Olys MFT system (M Zuiko) with the old FT Zuiko lenses.

Pretty exactly what I praise since I understood the principle of mirrorless systems.
But I wanted FF and I do not want a Sony FF. (But that's my personal taste).


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## LDS (Sep 22, 2014)

Woody said:


> What's the point of going mirrorless if the telephoto lenses don't shrink in size and weight?



Please explain how they could when the laws of optics dictates lens size and distance for a given image circle, focal length and maximum aperture. Sure, some advance in optics like diffractive lens can help to reduce size and weight - but unless you can change light itself, there isn't much you can do.

A mirrorless camera may be smaller because you can remove the pentaprism, and the mirror, but its lenses size will still be a function of the sensor size.


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## Bob Howland (Sep 22, 2014)

According to Neuro, who presumably measured the appropriate cameras, the throat (inner) diameter of the EOS-M mount is 43mm while the EF throat diameter is 51mm. The 58mm figure is apparently for the outside of the mount, which could vary from camera to camera.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19596.msg369987#msg369987


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## SPKoko (Sep 22, 2014)

moreorless said:


> can the EF-M mount take FF? I remember seeing some analysis that it could



I have also seen some discussions about that. The EOS M review in dpreview says:



> The EF-M mount is 58mm in diameter, with a flange distance of 18mm from the bayonet to the sensor. As the image above clearly shows it's matched specifically to the APS-C sensor size. So don't expect a future full frame EF-M mount camera - it's not going to happen.



But I believe that it is possible. If you review the table of Lens Monts in Wikipedia, you will see that the Sony E-Mount has a Thread Diameter of 46.1 mm and a Flange Focal Distance of 18mm. The EF-M mount, with the same Flange Focal Distance and a wider (58mm) Thread Diameter should be even more capable of hosting a Full Frame sensor...


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## moreorless (Sep 22, 2014)

Bob Howland said:


> The M-mount, with a 58mm throat diameter, is unfortunately not that much smaller than the EF mount. The MFT mount, on the other hand, has a 38mm throat diameter and the NX system a 42mm throat diameter. If Canon wants to imitate these systems then, yes, they might introduce a smaller lens mount.



I wonder actually whether the reverse might be true for a FF mirrorless system. Look at this shot of the internals of the RX1 lens...







That's one heck of a big rear element(looks too large to fit in a regular E-mount), I'm no optics expert but I wonder whether its there to help deal with the issue of extreme light angles hitting the sensor? certainly the RX1 lens seems to be more compact for its specs than any of the FE lenses(the 35mm f/2.8 is about the same size but a stop slower with worse macro ability, the new 35mm 1.4 far larger).

So perhaps whilst it may technically be possible to fit FF coverage into an EF-M lens its actually a better option to go with something that has a larger mount diameter to allow for a big correcting rear element and so smaller lenses?

m43 might have a smaller mount size but relative to the sensor size its actually a lot larger than the the Sony FE system.


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## mirrorless (Sep 22, 2014)

Eos M-Mount inner Diameter is 46mm.. Sony E-mount is about the same.

Canon Eos-M is actually a pretty good camera. Lenses are very good compared to price. But Eos-M should have viewfinder and AF could be little faster. Shutter speed- and exp compensation disks would be nice too ...

I hope Canon will make new (more pro) Eos-M body.. Photokina was disappointing from that perspective


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## DRR (Sep 22, 2014)

Here is my initial, (fabricated) roadmap of what I think Canon will do. Keep in mind this is pure speculation but it's fun to wonder 

First, they are going to move all Rebels and lower end SLRs to mirrorless technology. They won't be the small mirrorless cameras like we see today, but rather, mirrorless technology in a larger, comfortable, camera, with an APS-C sensor. Think of something the size of a Rebel of today, but thinner, since we don't need the mirror box anymore. "Full size" mirrorless. These cameras will use the .... EF-M mount. That's right, Canon's bastard system will eventually become its standard. Of course we know EF-M can retain full EF and EF-S compatibility with an adapter so that won't be an issue at all. It will also give Canon an easy way to move beyond EF and EF-S while maintaining its stable of EF lenses, which is the system's primary selling point. 

They will cease making EF-S lenses in favor of the EF-M. By standardizing on EF-M for APS-C, they can create two very distinct lines of cameras - an SLR-style (but thinner) line for mass consumption (this would effectively replace the Rebel line, and would sell great in the US/Europe) and then a much smaller, MILC line (that will sell great in Asia, and replaces the EOS-M). This gives Canon two camera lines for two very distinct world markets, but they have the benefit of sharing the same mount, 

For semi-pro and some pro applications, that is where we will see the new mount, for FF mirrorless, with a reduced flange distance from EF/EF-S. Let's call it, EF-X. EF-X will be a FF mirrorless mount, enabling the 5D Mark V and the 6D Mark III to use the new EF-X lenses and also, with an adapter (like EF-M,) will allow full backward compatibility with existing EF/EF-S lenses. So you might buy a FF Mirrorless 6D Mark III with a kit 20-135mm f/4 IS lens in an EF-X mount, but with an adapter, you would also be able to retain full compatibility with your existing L glass with no optical penalty.

Canon will, for a long time, still retain a line of pro cameras with a mirror box with a full EF mount, but as progress marches on, this will be sunsetted as the EF-M and EF-X mounts gain momentum. This is similar to how they transitioned from film bodies to digital bodies. You can still buy a EOS 1v brand new if you like, I expect they will maintain cameras with native EF mounts for a while.

So in the future I can see them transitioning to

Consumer line - New "Rebels" APS-C with EF-M mount in larger form factor, full EF/EF-S compatability with adapter

Consumer mirrorless - New "EOS-M" APS-C with EF-M mount in small form factor, full EF/EF-S compatability with adapter

Pro line - New FF Mirrorless with EF-X mount in larger form factor, full EF/EF-S compatibility with adapter

Legacy line - DSLR with mirrorbox with EF mount

Just my opinion. Don't take it too seriously!


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## SPKoko (Sep 22, 2014)

DRR said:


> Here is my initial, (fabricated) roadmap of what I think Canon will do. Keep in mind this is pure speculation but it's fun to wonder



I like your speculation and it kind of makes sense. But, why not just release mirroless Rebels exactly like the ones that we have today and with EF-S mount but just change the OVF with an EVF and add DPAF? Advantages:

* The costs would be lower (no mirror, no AF module, no need to calibrate the mirror/AF system, less need of after-sales support)
* The ergonomy/handling of the camera would be better than the typical mirrorless camera
* Fully native (not via adapters, that always create additional problems) compatibility with current EF-S and EF glass!

And for those who want small & pocketable, seriously develop the EOS-M system and provide that alternative!


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## tculotta (Sep 22, 2014)

Whatever the plan and roadmap encompass, I find it hard to believe that part of the plan would be to "obsolete" (used as a verb) the one hook that keeps many of us firmly entrenched in the Canon camp: our investments in glass. Whatever is done, there must be a grandfathering of the existing lenses to keep people in the Canon stable and make their investment in glass usable on a go forward basis, until such time as the user chooses to buy new glass rather than being forced to make a choice based upon interoperability.


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## hachu21 (Sep 22, 2014)

DRR said:


> Here is my initial, (fabricated) roadmap of what I think Canon will do. Keep in mind this is pure speculation but it's fun to wonder


Nice roadmap! But where do you fit the future 7D mkIII (crop sensor pro-body)?


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## DRR (Sep 22, 2014)

hachu21 said:


> DRR said:
> 
> 
> > Here is my initial, (fabricated) roadmap of what I think Canon will do. Keep in mind this is pure speculation but it's fun to wonder
> ...



I haven't thought that far into it 

My initial thought here would be it would be a hybrid - I would say it would be a crop sensor but with the new mount (EF-X).

My reasoning being, that for this market you would probably be needing and using many telephoto lenses and it doesn't make sense to develop telephoto EF-M primes. (Just as it doesn't make sense right now to develop telephoto primes for EF-S, there just isn't a large enough market to make sense). I assume this would be technically feasible, and would be similar to how EF lenses work now on crop sensor cameras - the image circle would simply be too large for the sensor and the image would crop. Rather than "matching" like EF-M would with APS-C, or EF-X with FF mirrorless.

Fun discussion.


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## AvTvM (Sep 22, 2014)

Of course Canon will need to have 4 types of mounts/lenses for a transitional period to move from DSLRs to mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras. Just like Sony. Nikon is currently at 3 mounts (FX, DX, CX) and will need 1 or 2 more) ... and anybody else out there.

*APS-C: *
EF-S will be succeeded by EF-M as Rebel DSLRs are phased out. Anything a Rebel can do today is easily possible in an mirrorless EOS-M body. Bodies will come in 2 flavors: without EVF for the most compact size like today's EOS-M and M2. And a line of higher end, slightly larger bodies with EVF. 

There will be NO fat mirrorless cams ... "Rebels" without mirror, with EVF and native EF-S mount, since that concept ("SLT") combines the worst of both worlds and therefore has UTTERLY FAILED for Sony [A-mount cameras]. The transition is pretty painless, since all EF and EF-S lenses ever produced can be used on EF-M mount cameras using a simple extension tube adapter which retains all properties of the respective lens (AF, IS, 2-way communication with camera body), although lenses with STM AF-drive will work best with the MILCs AF-system. The adaptetr already exists: EF/EF-M adapter sold for too much money by Canon and in cheaper versions by thirdparty copycats.

*FF: *
exactly the same transition will happen, but it will be a bit more drawn out. DSLRs will be replaced by at least as powerful FF MILCs with new "EF-X" mount to take advantage of the shorter flange distance. All EF-lenses ever manufactured can be used by means of a simple extension tube EF/EF-X adapter (without optical elements). First MILCs will be catering to high-res/studio type applications until AF-systems will surpass the best DSLRs phase-AF capabilities. AF all over the frame, incredibly hig AF-speed, incredibly good tracking capabilities plus built-in 100% precision. The last DSLRs to be phased out will be 1D-X and 7D II successors, which are more frequently used in fast-action, reach-limited scenarios. But thanks to the easy adapters, the transition is pretty much painless - other than the 1987 move from FD to EF. 

Potential for Canon is massive. Just like the ski industry ... first everyone bought regular skies, once the market slumped due to saturation and bored-to-hell consumers, the industry finally innovated and introduced carving skies .. everybody bought new ones ... next came "rocker" skies ... everybody bought new ones again ... or is renting them  

*MILCs promise not only new sales but much more PROFITABLE sales
*On top of this comes the fact, that future mechanics-free, solid state, purely electronical/digital mirrorless cameras are a heck of a lot CHEAPER to produce compared to electro-mechanical DSLRs with mirrors, submirrors, separately mounted phase-AF sensro, viewfinder prism ... and other parts, that need to be preciely finetuned and potioned relative to each other, down to 1/100 of millimeters. MILCS can easily and entirely be manufactured and quality-controlled by 100% robo-factories. Hardly any labor costs involved. AT the same time, makers can sell MILCs as "new" and "with unique advantages" (smaller, lighter, faster, more capable, better AF, better IQ thanks to vibration-free electronic shutter units and no moving parts, totally silent, .... etc. ) at prices AT LEAST AS HIGH as more-expensive to build, similarly capable DSLRs. 

The EOS-M flopped inititially, solely because it was TOO WEAK a product at TOO high a price. It delivered LESS photographic use (no viewfinder at all, less control/points, less AF-performance, less battery charge, etc.) than similarly priced [USD 800] DSLRs. 

*Size? 
*Everywhere on earth - including North America - the overwhelming majority of peolpe wants a tool with a given functionality to be as small as possible - as long as it is large enough to still handle reasonably well ... factoring in new user interfaces. Otherwise we all - including US citizens - would still be using cell phones like these:





instead of iPhones or other contemporary smartphones. 

*In short:*
[list type=decimal]
[*]yes, mirrorless is the future, DSLRs will be dead
[*]yes, for a transition period Canon will have to maintain 4 different lens mounts ... 2 for APS-C and 2 for FF cameras 
[*]yes, Canon will soon enough manufacture lenses in EF-M mount for APS-C and EF-X (or whatever they choose to call it] mount for FF-sensored cams and shut down production of EF- and EF-S lenses

[/list] ;D


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## SPKoko (Sep 22, 2014)

tculotta said:


> Whatever the plan and roadmap encompass, I find it hard to believe that part of the plan would be to "obsolete" (used as a verb) the one hook that keeps many of us firmly entrenched in the Canon camp: our investments in glass. Whatever is done, there must be a grandfathering of the existing lenses to keep people in the Canon stable and make their investment in glass usable on a go forward basis, until such time as the user chooses to buy new glass rather than being forced to make a choice based upon interoperability.



+1000

With Nikon and Sony having better sensors, Sony and m4/3 having better size and Nikon having similar glass choices, a forced mount change ala FD->EOS would strongly alienate Canon's user base and it would be a suicide for Canon. That is why a mirrorless Rebel makes so much sense together with a slow but continuous development of the EOS M system (the backup/long term plan).


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## roxics (Sep 22, 2014)

This is a money move for Canon. The EF mount is no longer under patent and as a result third parties like Black Magic / RED are free to use it on new cameras. Creating a new mount means that once again Canon can lock their users down to only their cameras if they want to use new Canon lenses.


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## Steve (Sep 22, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> *Size?
> *Everywhere on earth - including North America - the overwhelming majority of peolpe wants a tool with a given functionality to be as small as possible - as long as it is large enough to still handle reasonably well ... factoring in new user interfaces. Otherwise we all - including US citizens - would still be using cell phones like these:
> 
> 
> ...



Counterpoint:


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## SPKoko (Sep 22, 2014)

roxics said:


> This is a money move for Canon. The EF mount is no longer under patent and as a result third parties like Black Magic / RED are free to use it on new cameras. Creating a new mount means that once again Canon can lock their users down to only their cameras if they want to use new Canon lenses.



I only see benefits to Canon and Canon users if other vendors adopt the EF mount. Olympus and Panasonic both benefit for contributing to a common ecosystem.

Sigma with their Art lenses is more dangerous to Canon than camera vendors adopting the EF mount...


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Sep 22, 2014)

This is good news if it is indeed in reference to a FF mirrorless mount. Canon really can't shrink camera and lens size down if they're forced to maintain the EF flange distance. They'd be smart to follow Sony's lead in regard to the A and E mount, as the lack of a good mirrorless system is holding Canon back IMO. 

And it won't be hard at all for Canon to offer an EF adapter for this new mount.


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## Khalai (Sep 22, 2014)

roxics said:


> This is a money move for Canon. The EF mount is no longer under patent and as a result third parties like Black Magic / RED are free to use it on new cameras. Creating a new mount means that once again Canon can lock their users down to only their cameras if they want to use new Canon lenses.



That would upset so many Canon customers leading to a financial suicide for Canon, rendering them unpredictable and unreliable company. EF mount may evolve, keeping legacy lenses still functional, but I hardly doubt, they will abandon it for good.


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## AvTvM (Sep 22, 2014)

Counterpoint to counterpoint:




+





vs.


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 22, 2014)

DRR said:


> Here is my initial, (fabricated) roadmap of what I think Canon will do. Keep in mind this is pure speculation but it's fun to wonder
> 
> First, they are going to move all Rebels and lower end SLRs to mirrorless technology. They won't be the small mirrorless cameras like we see today, but rather, mirrorless technology in a larger, comfortable, camera, with an APS-C sensor. Think of something the size of a Rebel of today, but thinner, since we don't need the mirror box anymore. "Full size" mirrorless. These cameras will use the .... EF-M mount. That's right, Canon's bastard system will eventually become its standard. Of course we know EF-M can retain full EF and EF-S compatibility with an adapter so that won't be an issue at all. It will also give Canon an easy way to move beyond EF and EF-S while maintaining its stable of EF lenses, which is the system's primary selling point.
> 
> ...


Half the fun I have on CR is seeing what other people dream up. Of course there's great technical Q&A, advice, info and heated debates about what's really going on... but me, I'm a dreamer :-D

Just to throw a couple more crazy figures out there...

MFD MILC: The "EF-X" mount where "X" = ????

56mm image circle, Physical Backwards compatible to EF and EF-S
Sizing is so that on the EF-X system, EF = 1.3xCrop , EF-S = 2xCrop
This still allows up to 5mm of shift with the TS-E 17mm and 24mm II 
New TS-E 135mm (replacing 90) and 60mm (replacing 45) also to have at least 5mm of shift.
New AF primes to cover 56mm. (e.g. 45mm, 70mm, 180mm)
New AF zooms to cover 56mm. (e.g. 18-35, 35-120mm)
Possibly use aspect ratio other than 3:2 ... maybe a 16:10, 19:10 or 21:10 for Cine 4/6/8K.


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## roxics (Sep 22, 2014)

SPKoko said:


> I only see benefits to Canon and Canon users if other vendors adopt the EF mount. Olympus and Panasonic both benefit for contributing to a common ecosystem.
> 
> Sigma with their Art lenses is more dangerous to Canon than camera vendors adopting the EF mount...



But neither Olympus nor Panasonic were market leaders at the time and still aren't. They had to try something radical and new. Canon is your typical slow moving behemoth in this market. Their goal is slow and steady and to protect their dominance as much as possible.

I don't diagree that third party lenses are probably a bigger pain for them, but if they can kill two birds with one stone, they will. While also offering a full electronic adapter for backward compability with EF and EF-S lenses potentially.


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## Ripley (Sep 22, 2014)

+





vs.


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## rrcphoto (Sep 22, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p>According to an interview with Mr Makoto Sakaeta Masaya, the managing director of Canon Image Communication Business Division. Canon is exploring the possibility of a new lens mount. I suspect its application would be for a full frame mirrorless system of some kind.</p>
> <p><strong><a href="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20140918_667456.html" target="_blank">Read the Interview</a> (Google Translated)</strong></p>
> <p>Source: [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/mirrorless.html" target="_blank">NL</a>] via [<a href="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20140918_667456.html" target="_blank">DCW</a>]</p>
> <p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>



in no place in this interview was full frame mentioned - just the reverse - the intent of the interview was that things should be made smaller - such as 1" sensor / m43's as the quality of those sensors improve.

not to mention the current EF-M throat dimension once you remove the baffling can already support a full frame sensor.

full frame doesn't do anything for the miniturization of the "system" which is what Masaya was talking about.

everyone's running amok on this thread - and there's no indication whatsoever that canon's making a bigger than APS-C MILC.

(the only thing that would make sense for bigger than APS-C would be medium format)


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## that1guyy (Sep 22, 2014)

There will probably be an adapter of some sort to connect EF lenses to the new mount. Similar to Sony's A to E adapter right?


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## Haydn1971 (Sep 22, 2014)

Whilst I agree with some opinion that EF-M will extend to include an entry level camera, I'm not convince that it will completely supersede the medium to high end current EF-S/EF APS-C cameras - I do see "mirrorless" coming to body's that eventually replace the x0D/7D ranges.

New mount ? Three possibilities, in order of probability

1, Most likely a new smaller mount for a 1" sensor in the style of Pentax/Nikon
2, Full frame mirrorless not for mainstream but for cinema ranges, offering logic control for powered zoom and focus
3, Least likely a larger than full frame Mirrorless for high end 8k+ cinema and a high end medium format range


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## Stephen Melvin (Sep 22, 2014)

Woody said:


> I look at the size and weight of the Sony FE 70-200 f/4 OSS lens designed for their mirrorless A7 family, and I shudder. What's the point of going mirrorless if the telephoto lenses don't shrink in size and weight?



It's for the shorter lenses. Look at Leica lenses sometime. Their normals and wides are positively tiny, compared to Canon's. Look at Canon's 24mm f/1.4, which is a giant compared to the 50mm f/1.4. Doesn't that seem backward? That's because it. But it's necessary, due to the mirror.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 22, 2014)

35mm sensor + 35, 50, and 85mm : : :


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## rrcphoto (Sep 23, 2014)

Stephen Melvin said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > I look at the size and weight of the Sony FE 70-200 f/4 OSS lens designed for their mirrorless A7 family, and I shudder. What's the point of going mirrorless if the telephoto lenses don't shrink in size and weight?
> ...



There's the crux for the majority of the buying public - they dont' care for primes. get a few kit lenses and they are good.


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## EchoLocation (Sep 23, 2014)

It seems like a lot of the CR regulars are choosing to ignore this thread.
Only 3 pages about a possible new [email protected]!
This is crazy news. Didn't Canon just create the M mount? Why would we need a m43 focused mount when they just made the EOS-M system?
Is this just purposeful misinformation? The only reason I could see the need for any new mount is if the M mount can absolutely not take FF and they need to want to make smaller lenses and bodies which accommodate FF(or hopefully larger(not holding my breath)) sensors.


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## moreorless (Sep 23, 2014)

rrcphoto said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <p>According to an interview with Mr Makoto Sakaeta Masaya, the managing director of Canon Image Communication Business Division. Canon is exploring the possibility of a new lens mount. I suspect its application would be for a full frame mirrorless system of some kind.</p>
> ...



One possibility would be as I mentioned that Sony by shoehorning FF lenses into a mount ment for ASPC lenses has actually compromised its FE system.

Again look at the RX1 one lens design with the massive rear element...







Maybe FF mirrorless size saving would be greater with a larger mount that can allow such big rear elements to avoid issues with light dropoff and boarder softness?

I'd agree people have run riot with any idea of FF mirrorless but I wouldn't say its impossible, beyond the above point remember of course that the EF-M system is quite limited anyway so linking it to a FF mirrorless one wouldn't really matter that much. Personally I see relatively little benefit of linking even the larger E-mount system, all the FE lenses are large an expensive and don't see like something an ASPC user would buy unlike the EF mount that offers quite a few lenses attractive to ASPC users,

Besides that and MF another possibility I spose is a system more like the Nikon 1 and targeting it with lenses like the new 70-300mm Nikon have just released as a small action/wildlife camera.


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## AvTvM (Sep 23, 2014)

moreorless said:


> Maybe FF mirrorless size saving would be greater with a larger mount that can allow such big rear elements to avoid issues with light dropoff and boarder softness?



no MAYBE there. The BIGGER the freakin' hole in the body compared to sensor inside is, the EASIER it is to design 

*optically better* and/or 
*smaller and lighter* and/or 
*less pricey*
 lenses. 

Sony/Zeiss FE lenses are so ridiculously expensive and huge, because that mount hole is simply too small relative to the FF sensor inside. Sony made a huge mistake using the APS-C sized E-mount hole as basis for their new FF mirrorless line. It is a totally unnecessary weak spot built-in from the very start and this achilles heel will hurt them ever more year after year, as competitors will come to market with better, cheaper and more compact lens ranges for FF sensored MILCs. 

Canon EF-M lenses are so damn small, damn good and downright cheap, because the EF-M mount - like all current Canon mounts EF7EF-S/EF-M - has a really generous clearance and is very well-sized relative to the sensor inside [and to the chosen flange distance]. And no, EF-M cannot possibly handle an FF sensor in an uncompromised, meaningful and quality fashion. Luckily Canon has repeatedly also stated this and will not compromise on that one. 8)


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## J.R. (Sep 23, 2014)

Canon is looking to shut up the "Canon isn't innovating" brigade ;D

The last line takes the cake though - 



> And so on the products that you intend to produce a new fun as an interchangeable lens system, _please keep looking forward to it_.



Now, I know that it is a translation but I couldn't resist.


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## moreorless (Sep 23, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> moreorless said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe FF mirrorless size saving would be greater with a larger mount that can allow such big rear elements to avoid issues with light dropoff and boarder softness?
> ...



I wouldn't be surprised, to me the whole FE system looked like it was thrown together in a bit of a mad rush to be first to market and could potentially highlight why that isn't always a good idea. You look back to the AF revolution and the EF mount was actually quite late to the party but ended up dominating by providing better performance.

On other difference I could see with a Canon FF mirrorless system would be that unlike Sony it likely wouldn't be trying to replace FF DSLR's but rather aiming for specifically at the small camera market. Sony are IMHO clearly trying to use this system to makeup for their failure to build more market share with the FF A-mount, Canon aren't in that situation. I could see the end result being rather similar to the EOS M system, for the kind of market who buys a camera like that(generally in Japan) the lenses are very well targeted, especially in terms of not crippling kit options the way Sony tend to, I could see a similar kind of lineup for a FF system, half a dozen or so lenses would probably give most users what there after(normal/UWA zooms, f/2 primes plus maybe a short f/2.8 macro) anything else could be adapted from EF.


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## studio1972 (Sep 24, 2014)

Seems strange to me that Canon hasn't done more with their current mirrorless system. If you look at what Fuji are doing with a crop sensor, but pro level lenses and ergonomics. The problem with Canon mirrorless isn't that the sensor is too small (in fact, aps might turn out to be the optimum sensor size for mirror less), it's that they've made no effort to produce a system with fast lenses and pro level bodies.


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## RAKAMRAK (Sep 24, 2014)

I hope it is mirrorless fullframe system like A7 etc. I have been looking at this lightweight camera for sometime, but do not know the quality of their lenses so did not want to make the jump. If this new canon system gives me a lightweight mirrorless fullframe - it would be so great for my hiking - every oz. counts.


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## DRR (Sep 24, 2014)

studio1972 said:


> Seems strange to me that Canon hasn't done more with their current mirrorless system. If you look at what Fuji are doing with a crop sensor, but pro level lenses and ergonomics. The problem with Canon mirrorless isn't that the sensor is too small (in fact, aps might turn out to be the optimum sensor size for mirror less), it's that they've made no effort to produce a system with fast lenses and pro level bodies.



I think they are (rightfully) hesitant to do that, as it's their golden goose. The EOS-M was them dipping their toes in the water and "beta testing" the EF-M mount, which I think could become the future native mount for all APS-C.

Canon is a big enough company, with a loyal enough user base, that they don't need to do what Fuji is doing right now. They can cede that market to the Fuji and the Sony, because once the market settles down and Fuji and Sony and Samsung have found the "magic formula" of what types of cameras people want, Canon can put their full weight behind doing the same thing except with a Canon nameplate, and full EF/EF-S compatibility, and then just steamroll the competition.

That is to say, Canon's strategy is not to tire themselves out with a flurry of punches early, but wait and play defensively until their opponents tire, saving their money and learning their opponents weaknesses, and when the time is right, go for the knockout blow.

It is just a market timing strategy, they are not neglecting the market.


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## studio1972 (Sep 24, 2014)

DRR said:


> studio1972 said:
> 
> 
> > Seems strange to me that Canon hasn't done more with their current mirrorless system. If you look at what Fuji are doing with a crop sensor, but pro level lenses and ergonomics. The problem with Canon mirrorless isn't that the sensor is too small (in fact, aps might turn out to be the optimum sensor size for mirror less), it's that they've made no effort to produce a system with fast lenses and pro level bodies.
> ...



I don't think that's a sensible strategy. I sold my canon gear and moved to Fuji, as I didn't want to wait for years for Canon to make a move, and Fuji have rewarded my leap of faith with great cameras like the XT1 and lenses like the 56mm 1.2. Many others are jumping ship now and if Canon leave it too long, it might be too late for them to join the party. Just look what happened to Kodak!


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## Tugela (Sep 24, 2014)

Maximilian said:


> WOW!
> 
> It seems that finally the big heavy dinosaur is starting to move.
> The only thing I can interpret into this rumor is, that they needed to see the success of Sony on FF mirrorless to understand that the customer have already seen the advantages in body and lens size as well as easier and more performant optical design.
> ...



Ya. The only problem that is has just begun to move, which means that in three years they will be where everyone else is today 

And by that time everyone else would have moved on.


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## Tugela (Sep 24, 2014)

studio1972 said:


> Seems strange to me that Canon hasn't done more with their current mirrorless system. If you look at what Fuji are doing with a crop sensor, but pro level lenses and ergonomics. The problem with Canon mirrorless isn't that the sensor is too small (in fact, aps might turn out to be the optimum sensor size for mirror less), it's that they've made no effort to produce a system with fast lenses and pro level bodies.



But they made a white one? Is that not good enough to demonstrate their technological prowess?


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## Maximilian (Sep 25, 2014)

Tugela said:


> Maximilian said:
> 
> 
> > But even if this is true I still see some time to pass until the system is worth a closer look.
> ...


Totally agree. That's what I meant in my second paragraph:
We'll have to be patient until and we'll have to judge when something is released.


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## Sella174 (Sep 26, 2014)

studio1972 said:


> I don't think that's a sensible strategy. I sold my canon gear and moved to Fuji, as I didn't want to wait for years for Canon to make a move, and Fuji have rewarded my leap of faith with great cameras like the XT1 and lenses like the 56mm 1.2. Many others are jumping ship now and if Canon leave it too long, it might be too late for them to join the party. Just look what happened to Kodak!



Same here ... and now it seems that those few EF(-S) lenses I haven't yet sold won't be usable as-is when/if Canon finally brings a decent mirrorless camera to market.


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## Busted Knuckles (Sep 27, 2014)

I must apologize for this event - it was triggered when I finally broke down and bought the M a few weeks ago. 

I am truly sorry for triggering this cataclysm.


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