# Full frame mirrorless market share: Canon already has 22% of the market in Japan



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 7, 2018)

> BCN rankings have released the latest numbers for the full frame mirrorless camera market in Japan, and Sony’s near 100% market share took a big hit after the release of the Canon EOS R and the Nikon Z series cameras.
> *Full frame mirrorless market share breakdown (Japan):*
> 
> Sony 67%
> ...



Continue reading...


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## Talys (Nov 7, 2018)

Not bad. I wonder how Canon got 0.1% the month before EOS R launched


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 7, 2018)

But, how do you intrepret the figures? A bunch of pre-orders all dropping in a few days do not equal market share, except for those few days. I expect the number to drop as potential Canon buyers get their camera. After a year, what will the figure look like? Canon also knows this, so expect to see more camera variations and more lenses pushed out as soon as they can get them ready.


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## BillB (Nov 7, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> But, how do you intrepret the figures? A bunch of pre-orders all dropping in a few days do not equal market share, except for those few days. I expect the number to drop as potential Canon buyers get their camera. After a year, what will the figure look like? Canon also knows this, so expect to see more camera variations and more lenses pushed out as soon as they can get them ready.


I think there is a lot of uncertainty about what happens next. Sony, Canon and Nikon all have to think about maintaining/growing sales and what it is going to take to make that happen. We shall see.


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## Ozarker (Nov 7, 2018)




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## eyeheartny (Nov 7, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon also knows this, so expect to see more camera variations and more lenses pushed out as soon as they can get them ready.



Good for us! I can't wait for more lenses. Based on the performance of my RF 50 I am just salivating to see what comes next.


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## JBSF (Nov 7, 2018)

I'm curious why Nikon didn't get nearly the bump that Canon got. From reviews to date, it seems that the Z7 is a great camera. Does Canon have that much greater of a following in Japan than Nikon?


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## knight427 (Nov 7, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> But, how do you intrepret the figures? A bunch of pre-orders all dropping in a few days do not equal market share, except for those few days. I expect the number to drop as potential Canon buyers get their camera. After a year, what will the figure look like? Canon also knows this, so expect to see more camera variations and more lenses pushed out as soon as they can get them ready.



It's sales in a month. For every 100 FF mirrorless cameras sold in Japan in October, 67 were Sony, 22 were Canon, 11 were Nikon (roughly). It will change every month, influenced heavily by whoever is launching a new product that month.


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## BillB (Nov 7, 2018)

JBSF said:


> I'm curious why Nikon didn't get nearly the bump that Canon got. From reviews to date, it seems that the Z7 is a great camera. Does Canon have that much greater of a following in Japan than Nikon?


Well, if there are more Canon owners than Nikon owners and Canon owners are buying the R and Nikon owners are buying the Z.... Price might have something to do with it too.


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## docsmith (Nov 7, 2018)

I forget...but I am pretty sure these are based on "shipped" units, not "sold." Thus, Canon/Nikon can have quantities shipped in months before the cameras were available to the public. 

If so, these initial numbers reflect more of expected demand than actual demand. Give them awhile and those two will meet. But initially, it is really what demand planners for retailers expected to sell.


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## tmroper (Nov 7, 2018)

The Sony "installed base" of FF is still pretty big, and I'd like to see a chart comparing total units going forward. More like X% of the world is currently using Android, iOS, etc. Although, I realize it's more difficult to determine when sold units are actually being used, vs broken, in the land fill, etc.


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## snappy604 (Nov 7, 2018)

hope its not so successful they don't have a good xmas / boxing day sale ;-)


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## canonmike (Nov 7, 2018)

BillB said:


> I think there is a lot of uncertainty about what happens next. Sony, Canon and Nikon all have to think about maintaining/growing sales and what it is going to take to make that happen. We shall see.


Concur. Gotta love that all the mfgs are now putting pressure on Sony and each other, as well. Works for me.


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## captainkanji (Nov 7, 2018)

I want to thank Sony. Without them, we wouldn’t have this new mount. I think Canon may actually be taking this seriously.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 8, 2018)

JBSF said:


> I'm curious why Nikon didn't get nearly the bump that Canon got. From reviews to date, it seems that the Z7 is a great camera. Does Canon have that much greater of a following in Japan than Nikon?



Price is a factor in sales volume, and the Z7 was not as well received by reviewers based on its price. At $1200 more than the R, it should perform much better than it does. Its a fine camera, but pretty much overpriced as most new camera releases are.

Then, they must divide sales between the Z6 and Z7 with a fixed number of Nikon users, each one will be limited in initial sales volume.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 8, 2018)

docsmith said:


> I forget...but I am pretty sure these are based on "shipped" units, not "sold." Thus, Canon/Nikon can have quantities shipped in months before the cameras were available to the public.
> 
> If so, these initial numbers reflect more of expected demand than actual demand. Give them awhile and those two will meet. But initially, it is really what demand planners for retailers expected to sell.



Not shipped units but sold units. BCN has deals with a large percentage of the larger camera retailers and receives sales figures from them. They don't provide data on cameras only, but all kinds of products, appliances being a big part of their market info.

You may be thinking of CIPA.


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## Woody (Nov 8, 2018)

Sony better be afraid, be very afraid.


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## djack41 (Nov 8, 2018)

JBSF said:


> I'm curious why Nikon didn't get nearly the bump that Canon got. From reviews to date, it seems that the Z7 is a great camera. Does Canon have that much greater of a following in Japan than Nikon?


Maybe because Canon has the a much larger market share of DSLR users and they are already invested in Canon lenses.


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## Woody (Nov 8, 2018)

captainkanji said:


> I want to thank Sony. Without them, we wouldn’t have this new mount. I think Canon may actually be taking this seriously.



The slow evolution to MILCs is inevitable simply because the manufacturing process is mostly automated, thus lowering the production cost.


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## Talys (Nov 8, 2018)

JBSF said:


> I'm curious why Nikon didn't get nearly the bump that Canon got. From reviews to date, it seems that the Z7 is a great camera. Does Canon have that much greater of a following in Japan than Nikon?



My speculation: Autofocus on the Z7 doesn't feel very good with adapted (Nikon) lenses, while adapted Canon lenses feel great on the EOS R. That greatly limits the number of people will buy one as another camera that will work well with their existing gear.


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## jd7 (Nov 8, 2018)

Talys said:


> My speculation: Autofocus on the Z7 doesn't feel very good with adapted (Nikon) lenses, while adapted Canon lenses feel great on the EOS R. That greatly limits the number of people will buy one as another camera that will work well with their existing gear.


I haven't personally tried a Z6 or Z7 but from everything I have read, I agree. It seems Canon has done a pretty good job of making it about as easy possible for existing Canon users to transition to the R system (given Canon decided to go for a new mount).


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## Uneternal (Nov 8, 2018)

After all the bad reviews, a lot of people saying its the worst Canon ever and Sony fanboys picking on the EOS R for no fullframe 4K and no IBIS... the camera STILL sells like hotcakes and almost took a fourth of the market share from Sony. 
Again: We are talking about ONE camera model that IMHO is even slightly overpriced vs 6-7 models from Sony in every price category. And this in just 2 months... Thats a hard pill for Sony fans to swallow.


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## mb66energy (Nov 8, 2018)

Tough times for Sony being the only producer of FF mirrorless in the sub 4k $/EUR region. But I think they tried to keep their users by providing fine lenses for their system in the last two or three years and I think they will survive on the long term with a 20-30% market share which means maybe a 50% drop of sold units ... because a lot of Nikon and Canon users have not switched and waited for a FF system from their own brand. This might double the units sold per month (just a rough estimate).

I often thought about buying a Sony FF mirrorless with adapter for my EF glass but this resulted in 1500 EUR / $ investment, a "mixed up" system and the need to process files in another software - I use Canons DPP and I am very satisfied with it. So I tryed the 5D classic second hand for 500 $/EUR and while it was a good experience the modern APS-C cameras have similar IQ so it was not the quantum leap IQ wise. So I was patient enough to wait what happens.

I am not shure if the EOS R is the right camera for me but I enjoy to have the option to buy one if I go FF again and - what is an incredible positive for me and what I wished for 10 years: An f-stop ring around the lens base ... coming true with the right adaptor. Lens wise I am well equipped for my needs so I do not depend on new RF lenses except maybe an RF 35-105 f/2.8 IS but maybe to boring for the market ...


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## memoriaphoto (Nov 8, 2018)

captainkanji said:


> I think Canon may actually be taking this seriously.



RF 50/1.2 , 28-70/2

Did you have doubts about that?

;-)


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## Memirsbrunnr (Nov 8, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> But, how do you intrepret the figures? A bunch of pre-orders all dropping in a few days do not equal market share, except for those few days. I expect the number to drop as potential Canon buyers get their camera. After a year, what will the figure look like? Canon also knows this, so expect to see more camera variations and more lenses pushed out as soon as they can get them ready.


I would prefer a price drop instead. It si holding me back from buying one ATM


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## Maximilian (Nov 8, 2018)

Sony is *******


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## mirage (Nov 8, 2018)

Great times! 5 companies making mirrorfree FF camera systems now for us to choose from. FINALLY! More choice. More competition. Better cameras and lenses. Lower prices and lower priced cameras and lenses will follow soon. Right direction, keep going!


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## Del Paso (Nov 8, 2018)

Maximilian said:


> Sony is *******


So sad, so sad, I could almost cry...if I didn't have my EOS R to console me!


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## Stuart (Nov 8, 2018)

This sounds very good for Canon, I hope there are a lot of early adopters and then prices drop a bit.


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## docsmith (Nov 8, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Not shipped units but sold units. BCN has deals with a large percentage of the larger camera retailers and receives sales figures from them. They don't provide data on cameras only, but all kinds of products, appliances being a big part of their market info.
> 
> You may be thinking of CIPA.


Thanks. I was trying to figure out how Canon had two monthly time points and Nikon three when the cameras were announced but not actually shipping (at least here in the US, not sure about Japan, but assume similar) until early October (Canon) and late September (Nikon). Its a small thing, but I like to understand what I am looking at.

From the translation of the BCN article below, I think the answer is pre-orders. Canon and Nikon where making pretty significant in roads based on pre-orders and then actual sales (online-in store). 

From the translation of the article....
_According to the BCN rankings, Sony had secured nearly 100% of its share until July 18, but the sales share of the two companies rose by the pre-sale of Nikon Z7 in August and the book sales of Canon EOS R in September. In October, both companies in Canon and Nikon reached 32.6%._


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## Treyarnon (Nov 8, 2018)

Sorry, but this is a total smokescreen. Of course Sony would have 100% market share when they have this particular market to themselves - and of course that share will drop as others arrive at the party. 

However what is NOT shown in the graphic? Actual number of units sold, and this is really all that matters. One assumes that this omission was on purpose?


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## Treyarnon (Nov 8, 2018)

JBSF said:


> I'm curious why Nikon didn't get nearly the bump that Canon got. From reviews to date, it seems that the Z7 is a great camera. Does Canon have that much greater of a following in Japan than Nikon?



The Z7 should be better than the EOS R -> its an extra 50% more money.

I have not been looking as closely on the Nikon as the R - so apologies if I'm missing something, but my take is that compared the the EOS R, the Z6 is a little under featured, and the Z7 a little over priced. I am also a little intrigued as to how Nikon plans to introduce a more pro orientated body into their line. You can take the Z7, and add a second card slot and secondary controls on the external battery grip, improve the AF tracking ... but would you then sell this camera alongside the Z7, or replace it?
I expect all of these first generation cameras from Nikon and Canon to have relatively short shelf lives, but the Z7 could be particularly short. Or does the existance of the Z7 indicate that the 'pro body' is a while off for Nikon??


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## BillB (Nov 8, 2018)

Treyarnon said:


> Sorry, but this is a total smokescreen. Of course Sony would have 100% market share when they have this particular market to themselves - and of course that share will drop as others arrive at the party.
> 
> However what is NOT shown in the graphic? Actual number of units sold, and this is really all that matters. One assumes that this omission was on purpose?


If you are big on conspiracy theories. Not a good idea to assume it is on purpose when incompetence is an explanation.


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## jeffa4444 (Nov 8, 2018)

Treyamon has a point. I would be interested in units sold not % as the market may have grown for mirrorless at the expense of DSLRs or high end compacts.


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## dak723 (Nov 8, 2018)

djack41 said:


> Maybe because Canon has the a much larger market share of DSLR users and they are already invested in Canon lenses.



Yes. Despite the constant crying on internet forums about changing brands if not satisfied, photographers buying a FF camera will already be invested in a system and rarely switch brands. Even if not invested heavily, photographers probably have already discovered which brand is their favorite - or handles in the way they are used to. I prefer Canon color - and am used to Canon's ergonomics - so I would not even consider Nikon (ands especially Sony) if looking to go mirrorless FF. My guess is that most folks are like me - not choosing a brand due to loyalty, but because our experience has already determined which brand we consider better than the others for our use.


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## Woody (Nov 8, 2018)

mirage said:


> Currently all the percentage numbers are meaningless. Only really interesting thing would be *ACTUAL UNITS SOLD [all SKUs lumped together] year-to-date 2018* broken out separately for each of the following current mirrorfree FF camera models...
> Unless BCN provides those numbers, they can shove their "market shares", percentages and "sales rankings" up their own rear.



Does any of the companies (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax) provide these numbers?

BCNRanking has been providing Japanese market shares statistics for many different products over a very long time (I believe since 1981). If you have doubts about their reliability, you should not believe ANY numbers provided by Sony/Nikon/Canon etc since they too do not give a breakdown on the actual number of units sold.

But I suppose these doubts are raised because Sony is no longer the leader?


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## amorse (Nov 8, 2018)

This is the fist data we've seen in the full frame mirrorless market with more than one brand active, and it is only the percentage of sales to one brand or another over that period in one country - not number of units in hands, not the total number of units moved, and not necessarily reflective of people switching between brands. We don't know if the increase in marketshare for Canon/Nikon is due to new entrants to the full frame mirrorless market, or movement from Sony. It is really hard to determine true marketshare from this data, but it does indicate that Canon had a better start than Nikon since they both start from zero. 

As we've seen plenty of times before, camera manufactures get a huge uptick in sales when they release a new body. We saw full frame market share leaders flip between Canon (October 2017), Nikon (January 2018), and Sony (August 2018) over the last 13 months, coinciding with each company releasing a full frame camera shortly before (6DII, D850, A7III). It makes sense that Canon would receive that many sales, but whether sales continue will be more telling. 

With that said, I got to play with an EOS R last week and while it seemed fine, it didn't knock my socks off, but I'd chalk that up to lack of familiarity with the body. The lens offerings are what make the R exciting to me - the fact that Canon is making RF lenses that they couldn't/wouldn't for EF makes the R an enticing product. I would bet that adding a higher-end model will pump the tires on those sales quite a bit. Time will tell.


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## mirage (Nov 8, 2018)

Woody said:


> Does any of the companies (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax) provide these numbers?
> BCNRanking has been providing Japanese market shares statistics for many different products over a very long time (I believe since 1981). If you have doubts about their reliability, you should not believe ANY numbers provided by Sony/Nikon/Canon etc since they too do not give a breakdown on the actual number of units sold.
> But I suppose these doubts are raised because Sony is no longer the leader?




BCN etc. do not need "numbers from manufacturers". They get them directly from retail channel. And while I do have some doubts in general re. reliability of their data, that is not my main point here.

What I really criticize is these guys feeding some kind of utterly useless "pseudo data" in the form of "sales rankings" and "% market share" to the media who then publish them with the most catchy and idiotic headline they can possibly think of. I find this misleading, inappropriate and extremely unprofessional conduct.

Either they provide real data, hard numbers [units] that is useful to anybody interested in the subject matter at hand - or if not prepared to give it "for free", then they better just shut up and keep selling it quietly to their corporate clients.

PS: I hold even less sympathy for Sony than for Canon. And more importantly, I don't care a bit about "who leads". Don't own stock of any them. All I want is a "compact, decent, affordable" FF mirrorfree system. By whomever.


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## Del Paso (Nov 8, 2018)

My speculation is that there will be soon very attractive cashbacks or discounts by Sony to protect their jeopardized market share, and also additional EOS R bodies and lenses by Canon. On the field of lenses, it will be hard to compete with Canon.
The empire strikes back!


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## eosuser1234 (Nov 8, 2018)

It is not any scientific study or anything, but on a recent trip to Yodobashi one of the largest camera stores in Tokyo, the mirrorless section had a good number of people looking at product (Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Nikon), while the DSLR section had zero. Yes zero. Was in the area for about 30 minutes on a Sunday.


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## esimmons (Nov 8, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> But, how do you intrepret the figures? A bunch of pre-orders all dropping in a few days do not equal market share, except for those few days. I expect the number to drop as potential Canon buyers get their camera. After a year, what will the figure look like? Canon also knows this, so expect to see more camera variations and more lenses pushed out as soon as they can get them ready.


bingo! that's not market share, it's sales volume for a short period of time.


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## mclaren777 (Nov 8, 2018)

50% for Canon is conservative. I think 70% is more likely.


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## esimmons (Nov 8, 2018)

JBSF said:


> I'm curious why Nikon didn't get nearly the bump that Canon got. From reviews to date, it seems that the Z7 is a great camera. Does Canon have that much greater of a following in Japan than Nikon?


i think it mainly has to do with availability to the consumer. this is just sales volume information over a very short period of time, not real market share. canon starting shipping units out in october, whereas nikon isnt shipping until november, if memory serves. regardless of exact dates, canon got thier units out a bit quicker hence the higher buy rate. expect november to be a huge month for nikon though.


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## esimmons (Nov 8, 2018)

mclaren777 said:


> 50% for Canon is conservative. I think 70% is more likely.


too high imo. the market is about to be saturated with offerings from at least 4 major manufacturers now, so market share will be tough to come by. i'd say 35-50% is pretty reasonable. dont forget, nikon has 2 models to canon's one, at the moment. not to mention sony's established lineup. plus whatever panasonic comes up with.


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## esimmons (Nov 8, 2018)

BillB said:


> Well, if there are more Canon owners than Nikon owners and Canon owners are buying the R and Nikon owners are buying the Z.... Price might have something to do with it too.


it's availability. canon was shipping in oct, nikon not till nov. nov should be big for nikon


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 8, 2018)

Woody said:


> The slow evolution to MILCs is inevitable simply because the manufacturing process is mostly automated, thus lowering the production cost.



While more and more production is automated, its pretty much the same for all recent Canon cameras. 

Mirrorless cameras have fewer parts, and should cost less to make, but they sell for higher prices. Compare a 6D MK II to the EOS R, or the Canon SL2 to the EOS M6.

Mirrorless cameras are way overpriced, but still sell well.


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## bokehmon22 (Nov 8, 2018)

Woody said:


> Sony better be afraid, be very afraid.



Sony has alot of competitions - Canon, Nikon, Panasonic. The same can be said about Canon & Nikon. 

If they didn't get enough switcher when they are the only player in FF mirrorless, it's going to be harder to get convert.


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## takesome1 (Nov 8, 2018)

These are meaningless fluff numbers.
There is no way to tell how many of he Canon and Nikon sales might have been Sony sales had they not released bodies.


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## esimmons (Nov 8, 2018)

captainkanji said:


> I want to thank Sony. Without them, we wouldn’t have this new mount. I think Canon may actually be taking this seriously.


don't forget panasonic (and partners i forget!) who started this ball rolling with m4/3.


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## esimmons (Nov 8, 2018)

Woody said:


> Sony better be afraid, be very afraid.


i'd be shocked if they hadnt been planning for this day years ago. it was only a matter of time before they weren't the only fish in the pond. notice all the new sony models coming out right before canikon announced their offerings?  yeah they'll lose market share, but they knew it wouldnt last forever.


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## mirage (Nov 8, 2018)

Sony's chances to become a stronger #2 than Nikon ever was during last 10 years are fully intact. All they need to do is turn some attention to their APS-C mirrorfree lineup: top crop A7000 + updated and less expensive (!) A6### and A5### bodies to compete with Canon M50, M5/M6 Mk. II ... plus a few decent and affordable (!) E-lenses ... while Nikon still has nothing at all in mirrorfree APS-C ... and mirrorslappers dying fast left and right ... might give Sony around 35% total ILC market share. Canon 45%. Rest for Nikon and 7 dwarfs. I don't believe the Pana Leica L-mount thing will really take off.


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## Architect1776 (Nov 8, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Wow in a month nearly a quarter market share. That is impressive, guess the Japanese know something about great cameras that many here in the USA seem to be missing. Then to have 50% market share by this time next year sounds like some pretty impressive product in the pipeline including wow lenses, which we already have seen a sample of and the bodies will likely be as impressive including the amazing DPAF perhaps improved. Can't wait to see!!!!!!!!!!


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## Architect1776 (Nov 8, 2018)

JBSF said:


> I'm curious why Nikon didn't get nearly the bump that Canon got. From reviews to date, it seems that the Z7 is a great camera. Does Canon have that much greater of a following in Japan than Nikon?



Perhaps the Canon is part of the EOS system and fully compatible with all the EF/EF-s products, actually improving the performance and features of current EF/EF-S lenses where the new Nikon is not nearly as backward compatible. Nikon Z products appear to really be good and there is a good chance that Sony will fall sharply to #3 because of the small limiting lens mount that is smaller than even the Canon M mount. Sony sensors are not nearly as good as fanboys make them out to be as DR and other factors are very close to what Canon now produces and fall behind in many cases to canon at higher ISO's. I look at the charts and Canon DR is better in nearly every instance at higher ISO's. Then add the incredible DPAF that no one else comes close to having and the color science of the camera and what is there not to like. Finally you have the widest range of lenses available and for me I can't wait to get my FD/FL and old R lenses on the new R cameras. What an impressive list of options with the new R system that just can't be touched by Sony with Nikon coming in second in the field. They have a great product and look to be serious this time about not clinging onto old obsolete technology and 30 years late embracing the future. 
Exciting times are coming!!!!!!!!!


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## mirage (Nov 8, 2018)

I expect Sony to take #2 slot from Nikon if it has not happened already. Z6/Z7 will not save Nikon #2 position. No entry in APS-C mirrorfree will make Nikon lose #2 slot.


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## vaotix (Nov 8, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> But, how do you intrepret the figures? A bunch of pre-orders all dropping in a few days do not equal market share, except for those few days. I expect the number to drop as potential Canon buyers get their camera. After a year, what will the figure look like? Canon also knows this, so expect to see more camera variations and more lenses pushed out as soon as they can get them ready.



Yeah. This article is super misleading. Canon doesn't have 22% of the market. The EOS R made up 22% of FF mirrorless camera sales for the month of October. The article here at Canon Rumors makes it seem like 22% of all FF cameras ever sold in Japan now belong to Canon after the EOS R launch.


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## jebrady03 (Nov 9, 2018)

Looking at market share RIGHT NOW is about the most ignorant possible way to evaluate performance. It's absolutely stupid. But, it should be monitored because... Volume is the only thing that matters until market share doesn't change drastically from one week or month to the next. The Z6 is coming soon and shortly thereafter, Panasonic is dropping two cameras and it's anticipated that the A7SIII is coming and possibly something from Sigma. Once all that happens, and assuming Canon doesn't bring an upmarket mirrorless FF, then you can look at Market Share. Until that time, the market is growing (in volume and offerings) and changing rapidly.
Do yourselves a favor, monitor volume instead. If you want an additional data point, evaluate it in the context of the entire FF ILC market (ie, including DSLR)


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## Mbell75 (Nov 9, 2018)

Woody said:


> Sony better be afraid, be very afraid.



Its Japan, no one cares about Japan except the Japanese lol. Hows it selling in the US? B&H , Adorama and everyone else couldn't keep the a7iii in stock up until a few weeks ago. The EOS R has been out for a month and it hasn't even hit low stock...


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## mb66energy (Nov 9, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> While more and more production is automated, its pretty much the same for all recent Canon cameras.
> 
> *Mirrorless cameras have fewer parts, and should cost less to make, *but they sell for higher prices. Compare a 6D MK II to the EOS R, or the Canon SL2 to the EOS M6.
> 
> Mirrorless cameras are way overpriced, but still sell well.



... but what if these parts are more expensive? I do not know the prices of high res OLED displays but if I look at the prices of the EVFs for EVF-less Canon M cameras I do not understand the relatively low price of the M50 ... or the M50 is the first "only-moderately-overpriced" EOS M series camera 

Maybe the prices for the OLED micro displays came down within the last year so I would compare the SL2 more to the M50 which are similarly priced (at introduction) while the M50 has an enhanced sensor, up to 10 fps and e.g. the digital balance as benefits.


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## koenkooi (Nov 9, 2018)

Mbell75 said:


> Its Japan, no one cares about Japan except the Japanese lol. Hows it selling in the US? B&H , Adorama and everyone else couldn't keep the a7iii in stock up until a few weeks ago. The EOS R has been out for a month and it hasn't even hit low stock...



As I said before: That's a relative measure, not an absolute one. If, for example, Sony ships 100 A7IIIs to a store which has 120 (pre)orders and Canon ships 200 Rs for 130 (pre)orders, which company did better? Your metric implies that Sony would've done 'better', since they sold out and the Rs didn't.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 9, 2018)

Mbell75 said:


> Its Japan, no one cares about Japan except the Japanese lol. Hows it selling in the US? B&H , Adorama and everyone else couldn't keep the a7iii in stock up until a few weeks ago. The EOS R has been out for a month and it hasn't even hit low stock...


In Japan, MILCs outsell DSLRs whereas in the US, DSLRs outsell MILCs by 3:1. So who cares about Japan? Anyone who wants to make _intelligent_ comments about MILC sales. 

By your logic, the Nikon D850 must be the most popular camera ever… It was out of stock everywhere in the US for most of 2018. 

If Sony and Nikon want to lose sales by inadequately supplying retailers, that's their problem. Canon is smarter.


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## Random Orbits (Nov 9, 2018)

mb66energy said:


> ... but what if these parts are more expensive? I do not know the prices of high res OLED displays but if I look at the prices of the EVFs for EVF-less Canon M cameras I do not understand the relatively low price of the M50 ... or the M50 is the first "only-moderately-overpriced" EOS M series camera
> 
> Maybe the prices for the OLED micro displays came down within the last year so I would compare the SL2 more to the M50 which are similarly priced (at introduction) while the M50 has an enhanced sensor, up to 10 fps and e.g. the digital balance as benefits.



Eventually they will be cheaper, but right now there is a lot of cost associated with NRE and reducing power consumption. Reusing parts already designed (i.e. mirrorboxes) is cheaper because EVFs are still improving and there's a lot of NRE associated with that . Once EVFs get retina-like with a high frame rate with low power consumption, then the prices will really start falling.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 9, 2018)

Jap


neuroanatomist said:


> In Japan, MILCs outsell DSLRs whereas in the US, DSLRs outsell MILCs by 3:1. So who cares about Japan? Anyone who wants to make _intelligent_ comments about MILC sales.
> 
> By your logic, the Nikon D850 must be the most popular camera ever… It was out of stock everywhere in the US for most of 2018.
> 
> If Sony and Nikon want to lose sales by inadequately supplying retailers, that's their problem. Canon is smarter.



I believe that camera sales in Japan are a advanced look at what sales around the world will look like in the coming years, that seems to have been the case over the last 50+ years. Japanese photographers have a reputation for being very discerning about their photography equipment, and they take good care of it as well. For camera manufacturers, there is real competition to achieve the best sales in Japan and to have the best product. In the past, the Japanese have also led the way in adoption of small products. I think that's changing.


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## Talys (Nov 9, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Jap
> 
> 
> I believe that camera sales in Japan are a advanced look at what sales around the world will look like in the coming years, that seems to have been the case over the last 50+ years. Japanese photographers have a reputation for being very discerning about their photography equipment, and they take good care of it as well. For camera manufacturers, there is real competition to achieve the best sales in Japan and to have the best product. In the past, the Japanese have also led the way in adoption of small products. I think that's changing.



While I generally agree with respect to photography equipment, there are some cultural and practical differences (like available storage spaces) in the Japanese and North American markets, though. I'm amazed at how many people I've met who, when asked why they bought a particular DSLR, even a $300 one from Costco or Best Buy, tell me simply, "I wanted something that looks like a real camera".


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## Roy2001 (Nov 9, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> But, how do you intrepret the figures? A bunch of pre-orders all dropping in a few days do not equal market share, except for those few days. I expect the number to drop as potential Canon buyers get their camera. After a year, what will the figure look like? Canon also knows this, so expect to see more camera variations and more lenses pushed out as soon as they can get them ready.


Further more, is that 22% market share from 5D4/6D2 volume, or is it from Sony FF volume. That is a big question.


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## mb66energy (Nov 10, 2018)

Random Orbits said:


> Eventually they will be cheaper, but right now there is a lot of cost associated with NRE and reducing power consumption. Reusing parts already designed (i.e. mirrorboxes) is cheaper because EVFs are still improving and there's a lot of NRE associated with that . Once EVFs get retina-like with a high frame rate with low power consumption, then the prices will really start falling.



Good point - I think OLED displays are good at the moment but they are no well proven standard tech if it comes to "retina-like" resolution and color fidelity. If they have invested a lot of NRE (now I now what it stands for  ) production quality will be very high at low cost and low variance of the products and your prognosis comes true: "Very cheap" mirrorless cameras.

Actually I know the price of one OLED display of 1.5 inch diagonale with a fat amount of 128 x 128 pixels: Its 25 EUR/$, colors are good for a thermal imager I am building but maybe only mediocre for photographic applications. It starts with 64000 colors only by the used controler chip. So I expect a 1024 x 768 pixel OLED with photographic color quality like that of the M50 is more like 50-90 EUR/$ (for Canon's purchase dept.) - and we pay 70 ... 130 EUR/$ for it if its inside the camera.


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## dak723 (Nov 11, 2018)

Roy2001 said:


> Further more, is that 22% market share from 5D4/6D2 volume, or is it from Sony FF volume. That is a big question.



This is MIRRORLESS FF sales. It has nothing to do with 5D4 or 6D2. In October 2018 in Japan, of all of the FF mirrorless cameras sold, Sony sold 67%, Canon 22.1% and Nikon 10.4%. All in all, I would say Sony would be quite happy that they still sold 3 times as many FF cameras as Canon in a month where Canon debuted their brand new camera.


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## scyrene (Nov 11, 2018)

Mbell75 said:


> Its Japan, no one cares about Japan except the Japanese lol. Hows it selling in the US? B&H , Adorama and everyone else couldn't keep the a7iii in stock up until a few weeks ago. The EOS R has been out for a month and it hasn't even hit low stock...



And only Americans think America is all that matters


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## snoke (Nov 11, 2018)

Canon always be #1. Many existing user.

Canon need small % existing buy EOS R and it beat Sony/Nikon.


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## NetMage (Nov 12, 2018)

dak723 said:


> This is MIRRORLESS FF sales. It has nothing to do with 5D4 or 6D2. In October 2018 in Japan, of all of the FF mirrorless cameras sold, Sony sold 67%, Canon 22.1% and Nikon 10.4%. All in all, I would say Sony would be quite happy that they still sold 3 times as many FF cameras as Canon in a month where Canon debuted their brand new camera.


Like you a quick read is easily misinterpreted.
What was meant is what cameras were not purchased by Canon R purchasers? Was it Canon 5/6 or Sony that lost sales?


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## Roy2001 (Nov 22, 2018)

dak723 said:


> This is MIRRORLESS FF sales. It has nothing to do with 5D4 or 6D2. In October 2018 in Japan, of all of the FF mirrorless cameras sold, Sony sold 67%, Canon 22.1% and Nikon 10.4%. All in all, I would say Sony would be quite happy that they still sold 3 times as many FF cameras as Canon in a month where Canon debuted their brand new camera.


The point is, if SONY sales number is stable, and EOSR+5D/6D = 5D/6D before EOSR released, then Canon is not taking market share from SONY.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 22, 2018)

Roy2001 said:


> The point is, if SONY sales number is stable, and EOSR+5D/6D = 5D/6D before EOSR released, then Canon is not taking market share from SONY.


You seem to have missed the point. *FF MILC market share.* Prior to the EOS R and Nikon Z, Sony effectively had 100% of it. Now, they have less.

You might wish to discuss FF ILC market share (i.e. FF DSLR + FF MILC), but the way BCN reports data, that cannot be determined so any statement you may make about Japan FF ILC market share is pure speculation. But Sony's loss of domestic FF MILC market share to Canon and Nikon is a fact.


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