# Here are the first images and specifications of the Canon EOS R and the new RF mount lenses



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 1, 2018)

> The first specifications and images of the Canon EOS R and RF lenses have leaked ahead of next week’s announcement.
> *Canon EOS R Specifications*
> 
> 30.3mp Full Frame CMOS
> ...



Continue reading...


----------



## vjlex (Sep 1, 2018)

Nice! It looks good. I'm officially blown away. It's real! Glad there's a flip screen and not tilt.


----------



## 1Zach1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Excited to see what the screen blackout/follow up is like. If it can keep up with action this seems like a great upgrade for me. Really want that 28-70 F2.


----------



## filipe.ngra (Sep 1, 2018)

We only need one kidney?


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

If the price is still sub 2k (or thereabouts) as rumored, I'm buying one. That simple.


----------



## FurryMan (Sep 1, 2018)

The 28-70/2.0 does not look too big.


----------



## MNMR (Sep 1, 2018)

That looks sexy


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

FurryMan said:


> The 28-70/2.0 does not look too big.



It's big dude. Scale it to the 24-105's mount. It's big.

- A


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 1, 2018)

EV -6 ?!?!?!?!?! Holy CRAP


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Control wheel = RIP. Thought it might survive, but I guess the tilty-flippy needed some of that room.

Cards = Unknown. Looks SD sized, but how many = TBD

FPS unknown

IBIS unknown

- A


----------



## ken (Sep 1, 2018)

It's looking really good... So glad this is real.


----------



## vjlex (Sep 1, 2018)

I'm trying to figure out which gear to try and sell to subsidize what I'm guessing will be a $3000-3500 camera. I like my M3 and EF-M 22mm, but I hardly see me investing in any of the EOS M line anymore. Yet and still, I still love the compactness of that combo. Definitely time to part ways with the 5D Mark II and 80-200mm.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> EV -6 ?!?!?!?!?! Holy CRAP




Where are you seeing that?

Forgive me, missed that. Holy hell. *-6?!*

- A


----------



## rle737ng (Sep 1, 2018)

Take my money.


----------



## Inspired (Sep 1, 2018)

I had high hopes for eye-auto focus


----------



## bks54 (Sep 1, 2018)

Almost exactly same size and weight as Nikon ZZZZZZ. But definitely cuter.


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

Wait...does it have a headphone jack? 


admiralburns said:


> If the price is still sub 2k (or thereabouts) as rumored, I'm buying one. That simple.


----------



## canonnews (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> Wait...does it have a headphone jack?


side image shows a mic and headphone jack.


----------



## navastronia (Sep 1, 2018)

I wanted a nice, chunky grip 

Wish this were a pro camera. I’ll save my money until then.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Inspired said:


> I had high hopes for eye-auto focus




Spec list isn't complete yet. No mention of FPS or IBIS either.

Eye AF is a quirk of an AF system, not a topline spec anyway, isn't it?

- A


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

Is there any other camera out there with AF to EV-6? That's crazy


----------



## Tom W (Sep 1, 2018)

Very interesting. It's all about the sensor. Always is these days, but if it's of the newer generation improvements, like the 80D was over the 70D, then it will be a gem.
I'm kind of digging it so far.


----------



## Flyingskiguy (Sep 1, 2018)

Whats going on with the 100-400L II image? Is that the 2x TC stacked on one of the RF-EF adapters?

This thing is..... a pleasant surprise! -6EV?! That's night vision. Flip out screen?! NICE. It's actually a pretty small camera, but with a deep grip! New lens design language is a nice blend of sleek modern with some of the classic EF lens look.

30.3MP sensor... the 5D IV is listed at 30.4MP. Should be a new sensor then, right?


----------



## SV (Sep 1, 2018)

So far, so good - looks like a nice camera!


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Grip is smaller than I'd like (say Rebel sized) but thank goodness there is finger space for room between the grip and bigger lenses. A+ there, Sony and Nikon both ruined it there.

- A


----------



## ken (Sep 1, 2018)

Size: Width of about 136 mm × height of about 98 mm
Vs Sony A7iii: 127 x 96 mm

Sweet.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

Yah. I don’t expect decent performance, but it might lock onto something eventually.


ahsanford said:


> Where are you seeing that?
> 
> Forgive me, missed that. Holy hell. *-6?!*
> 
> - A


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Where are you seeing that?
> 
> Forgive me, missed that. Holy hell. *-6?!*
> 
> - A


 Yeah! Holy hell is right. If that's true I'm buying it just for that lol. I hate fighting low light environments I can't really strobe


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

For a small camera that grip looks about as good as it gets. Nice and deep and PLENTY of space between it and the lenses. I can see you tube going into meltdown over the next few days


----------



## HAL 9000 Mark II (Sep 1, 2018)

Looks like a very comfortable camera to hold and operate and very lightweight at 580g. Not a very pretty looking camera but who cares. The part where Canon really kills Nikon is with those lenses, impressive lens selection to start with. Will it have IBIS though, I don't think so.. they will save that for Mark II


----------



## scottvillalobos (Sep 1, 2018)

Is it just me or does the memory card door look kinda small for two cards? Do you not know how many their are?


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Control wheel = RIP. Thought it might survive, but I guess the tilty-flippy needed some of that room.
> 
> Cards = Unknown. Looks SD sized, but how many = TBD
> 
> ...



I'm thinking we gotta have IBIS here and while I'm hoping for Cfast2, I'm pretty sure I ain't gonna get it. I haven't used SD cards in a while, but if the newer ones can keep up with the read/write speeds, I'm good with that. I just prefer a more robust card (structurally) SD cards make me too nervous with their small size and generally flimsy nature


----------



## Charbax (Sep 1, 2018)

Can we have:
- 4K60
- 10bit HLG (a way to record proper HDR)
- Dual SD UHS-II card slots
- Extremely Good IBIS
- Unlimted recording (nah 30min video limit is not ok (30min tax ends end of year in Europe anyway))

And stuff I'd like too but I never see anyone else ask about:
- H265 options for all framerates and resolutions (half bitrate, same quality, faster for YouTube 4K uploading)
- Wi-Fi multi-camera live editing on the touch-screen (for example you have any phone or a gopro like wifi camera pointing at yourself which you can switch to once in a while during the interview. Or switching to another Canon R camera during interview. Or switching among several cameras while live streaming sports or concert.)
- Wi-Fi and Type-C Ethernet and Type-C LTE dongles with bonding for reliable live streaming directly from camera
- Built-in wireless microphone receiving in camera. Whatever the wireless technology. Could also be wireless microphones that later sync the audio automatically over Type-C or over Wi-Fi direct in one-click with each audio track that can be adjusted in camera and video file saved.
- In-camera basic video editing. Use phone or tablet to have a larger UI when editing in-camera. Rendering the edits at faster than real-time.
- Type-C to SSD/HDD backups and live recording.
- 4x SD cards RAID in grip to expand storage and backup.


----------



## KennyM (Sep 1, 2018)

The ranging range is 100 × width 88% of the live view video display range
UMMMM. What?


----------



## Bennymiata (Sep 1, 2018)

Interesting that they have an adaptor for M series lenses.
Perhaps the it also has a crop mode?


----------



## miketcool (Sep 1, 2018)

Can’t. Wait. Card. Ready!


----------



## bks54 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zooms seem to have 3 rings and 50 has 2?

Maybe can adjust some parameters from the lens like Samsung and Nikon Z.


----------



## james75 (Sep 1, 2018)

Is this really going to be their entry level mirrorless for 1,900??? I thought their more pro version would have the same resolution as their 5d4. If this is their entry level camera, consider me sold.


----------



## herion (Sep 1, 2018)

EF/R Adapter doesn't look as thick as the EF/EFM ... wonder if the flange distance is in the 20s....


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

KennyM said:


> The ranging range is 100 × width 88% of the live view video display range
> UMMMM. What?


I think they have fixed that. It is viewfinder coverage. 100%x88%. Very good


----------



## vjlex (Sep 1, 2018)

Some of the small things I'm happy to see:

Backlight button right next to the top-side LCD. I hope that the back buttons will be illuminated too.
Fully-articulated screen. Definitely prefer the hinge for a flipscreen than those left side buttons- never liked those (review button right next to delete button... ugh).
Good old LP-E6(N). That's awesome!


----------



## miketcool (Sep 1, 2018)

Looks like it has openings for two microphones. Noise cancelling, speaker, or stereo mics?


----------



## FurryMan (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> It's big dude. Scale it to the 24-105's mount. It's big.
> 
> - A



It looks smaller than the NOCT next door...


----------



## mpmark (Sep 1, 2018)

ok, they have one, I never buy anything first generation as the next models will be way better. I'll keep my 5d4 and change maybe a couple of version down the road once they've gone through bugs and upgrades...Since there is no native ef mount, that definite turns me away at this point.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

Certainly looking like 1card. Probably SD. For the non pro option that is fair enough. 2 would be better but reality bites


----------



## Fleetie (Sep 1, 2018)

Wow! I'm really surprised!
I like the magnesium body; my M5 feels plasticky, nowhere near as good as my much-more-expensive 5D3.
So this looks great.

And the lenses! They look great, too! And an RF 50/1.2 L?! And a smaller RF 24-105/4 L, too? And a 28-70/2?
I'm amazed!

If the RF lenses are given "L" status, that suggests to me that the body will be given full EOS firmware, not PowerShot firmware. We can hope.

I hope the quality of the EVF is up to scratch.

And does the RF 24-105/4 L have IS, or does the body have IBIS?

Exciting times! And I notice that the CR server is groaning under the load already! It's running very slow now!


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Where are you seeing that?
> 
> Forgive me, missed that. Holy hell. *-6?!*
> 
> - A



That's never been done in a wide-release production camera, so far as I know. It needs 1/8th the light of the A7R3. Nuts.

More importantly, this could portend a great improvement in the sensor. Alternately, they might be fooling around with ideas like batching pixels on the sensor as AF points, etc. I would have said it looks like they're giving us the mirrorless 5D, but the 5D's AF tech never went to -6.

Notably absent: FPS... (bad sign). When the 7D2 came out, 10fps was the second thing mentioned. 

Wonder if I have time to take pics of one of my 5D4s tonight to get an early listing out. It's unlikely to be worse fps than the 5D4, so I've nothing to lose.


----------



## bks54 (Sep 1, 2018)

herion said:


> EF/R Adapter doesn't look as thick as the EF/EFM ... wonder if the flange distance is in the 20s....


20 mm in the specs.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Grip is smaller than I'd like (say Rebel sized) but thank goodness there is finger space for room between the grip and bigger lenses. A+ there, Sony and Nikon both ruined it there.
> 
> - A




In fact, the button layout in the back appears to borrow from the SL series. Which is a good thing if you're running a Canon in that small a size. Hope the buttons are not as plastic-y.


----------



## MNMR (Sep 1, 2018)

WIth this, Canon can renew their 50mm f/0.95 Dream lens too!


----------



## ecpu (Sep 1, 2018)

Doesn't appear to have a joystick to move the focus points. I'm surprised they would leave that out.

Also, given those specs, does anyone else think this may be the "high-end" model? It almost sounds too good to be true for a $1900 camera from Canon.


----------



## miketcool (Sep 1, 2018)

Also, looks like that giant scroll wheel has been replaced with a modern trackpad strip. Slide your finger left and right, possible tap to select?


----------



## rsdofny (Sep 1, 2018)

This is the spec of the $1900 camera that Canon will put out. I am sure that you'll get your wish list item in the 2G camera for the pros. Have a good weekend.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 1, 2018)

As I mentioned in the other thread the comparative view of the two cameras is not to scale (see the flash hotshoe)

I scaled the two so the hotshoe was the same.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 1, 2018)

I think I might see stereo mics in the front.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Spec list isn't complete yet. No mention of FPS or IBIS either.
> 
> Eye AF is a quirk of an AF system, not a topline spec anyway, isn't it?
> 
> - A



The M50 has Eye AF, so it's highly possible the EOS R will as well especially seeing as it should have the same Digic 8 (or new 8+) processor.


----------



## Kev_fx (Sep 1, 2018)

I was under the impression from previous rumors posted here that Canon was releasing 2 FF mirrorless bodies, a smaller, lower megapixel and a larger, high megapixel? Has that rumor been discredited then since pictures have leaked of the EOS R and nothing else? 

As much as I'm all for size, the EOS R looks really small.. rebel sized.. I was hoping for a slight profile reduction of the 5D since I actually like the grip size on the mark IV.


----------



## james75 (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Doesn't appear to have a joystick to move the focus points. I'm surprised they would leave that out.
> 
> Also, given those specs, does anyone else think this may be the "high-end" model? It almost sounds too good to be true for a $1900 camera from Canon.



Yeah, that's my guess as well. This appears to be a mirrorless 5d4


----------



## Lee Jay (Sep 1, 2018)

I'd give $300 for sure, $500 maybe, and $700 probably not for the body only.

I'm guessing that means I won't be getting one.


----------



## miketcool (Sep 1, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> As I mentioned in the other thread the comparative view of the two cameras is not to scale (see the flash hotshoe)
> 
> I scaled the two so the hotshoe was the same.
> 
> View attachment 180023



You just showed us that the new 24-105mm lens is an EF! It has the same flange distance as the 5DMKIV!


----------



## Adelino (Sep 1, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> EV -6 ?!?!?!?!?! Holy CRAP


Holy crap Batman! Now you can capture the cape crusader himself in the darkest part of his cave.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

This is going to hurt Nikon. It will worry Sony but it will really hurt Nikon. That lens selection looks drool worthy given that we all know how quickly canon will be able to grow that range. And this is their consumer model. One can only imagine what the high end models will be like.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Doesn't appear to have a joystick to move the focus points. I'm surprised they would leave that out.



The EOS R will most likely use the touch screen to move the focus points in the EFV just like on the EOS M5.


----------



## ecpu (Sep 1, 2018)

Sibir Lupus said:


> The EOS R will most likely use the touch screen to move the focus points in the EFV just like on the EOS M5.


Is that an effective way to move the focus points? I haven't used any EOS M cameras.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

Ah well, it was a good ride while it lasted! (The speculation that is). I'm sure it'll make some people vey happy, I wish them every success.


----------



## frnd.frts (Sep 1, 2018)

Zed is dead man...


----------



## ecpu (Sep 1, 2018)

frnd.frts said:


> Zed is dead man...


Why? Nikon Z seems very similar to me. A new FF mount that requires an adapter to use existing lenses. Why would Z be dead?


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

james75 said:


> Yeah, that's my guess as well. This appears to be a mirrorless 5d4


I would imagine their higher end model with be competing resolution wise with the A7r3. So 45-50mp. Canon may just be pulling the proverbial rabbit out of a hat. They held back and held back despite incessant criticism. Perhaps they were just making sure they blew everyone away when they entered the market and if this is the prosumer sub 2k body then I think they may just do that.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Doesn't appear to have a joystick to move the focus points. I'm surprised they would leave that out.
> 
> Also, given those specs, does anyone else think this may be the "high-end" model? It almost sounds too good to be true for a $1900 camera from Canon.




The key cool feature for me for my m5 was the fact I could use my right thumb on the screen as the joystick. MUCH better than a physical joystick - which I use on a couple of 5d4s today. 

That said, I think the button on top with the red dot might be a joystick - or at least some new form of control. It's not the shutter.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Is that an effective way to move the focus points? I haven't used any EOS M cameras.



I've never heard any negative comments about that feature on the M5. But wait, you have "EOS M50" under your name???


----------



## ecpu (Sep 1, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> The key cool feature for me for my m5 was the fact I could use my right thumb on the screen as the joystick. MUCH better than a physical joystick - which I use on a couple of 5d4s today.
> 
> That said, I think the button on top with the red dot might be a joystick - or at least some new form of control. It's not the shutter.


I thought the button with the red dot was just the record video button.


----------



## tpatana (Sep 1, 2018)

So no native EF  That was one of my hopes. I don't like adapter rings 

But give crazy fps (15...20) and good video (4k60, 1080/120 or 1080/240) and I'll probably take one. Add CF+SD dual slot as cherry on top. I'd hate dual SD almost as much as I'd hate single SD.


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 1, 2018)

Kev_fx said:


> I was under the impression from previous rumors posted here that Canon was releasing 2 FF mirrorless bodies, a smaller, lower megapixel and a larger, high megapixel? Has that rumor been discredited then since pictures have leaked of the EOS R and nothing else?
> 
> As much as I'm all for size, the EOS R looks really small.. rebel sized.. I was hoping for a slight profile reduction of the 5D since I actually like the grip size on the mark IV.



Nothing said both would absolutely come at the same time. There will probably be another next year. What's confusing is that this is coming in at 30MP when rumors had two models at 24ish and 40+ish. This first release is kinda straddling the middle, so thinking the next one may even be the rumored 5DSR Mk II (mirrorless version) with a 50+ MP sensor. 

Would Canon even want to release another super high res DSLR in a 5 body if they also plan to make a high res MILC that can also accommodate EF glass natively? Seems like there would be no room for both.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Sep 1, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> T
> That said, I think the button on top with the red dot might be a joystick - or at least some new form of control. It's not the shutter.



I believe that is the video record button . My M10 has a similar button and allows for instant video recording regardless of what mode it's currently in.


----------



## ecpu (Sep 1, 2018)

Sibir Lupus said:


> I believe that is the video record button . My M10 has a similar button and allows for instant video recording regardless of what mode it's currently in.


Yea I think so too.

Also, what's that new looking button on the back right below the top LCD? it's a long thin button with some arrows? A direction pad for left/right? What would that be for?


----------



## Flyingskiguy (Sep 1, 2018)

_Rough _attempt at mocking up the size of the 28-70 F/2L on the EOS R, scaling to hotshoe (thanks jolyonralph). Big lens.


----------



## dak723 (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Is that an effective way to move the focus points? I haven't used any EOS M cameras.



Moving the AF points with the touch screen works great on the M5 - so hoping this camera will have it. It is the type of innovation that gets overlooked by the spec lovers. Not sexy, but it was a game changer for me.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Yea I think so too.
> 
> Also, what's that new looking button on the back right below the top LCD? it's along thin button with some arrows? A direction pad for left/right? What would that be for?


Curious isn't it? Unlike any button I have seen before.


----------



## Edgey72 (Sep 1, 2018)

filipe.ngra said:


> We only need one kidney?


What’s that supposed to mean??? I know you can survive perfectly healthily with one kidney, I know because my Brother gave me one.


----------



## miketcool (Sep 1, 2018)

Aussie shooter said:


> Curious isn't it? Unlike any button I have seen before.



It’s a touchpad for swiping left right. Replaced the rear wheel. 21st century tech!


----------



## Tangent (Sep 1, 2018)

bks54 said:


> Zooms seem to have 3 rings and 50 has 2?
> 
> Maybe can adjust some parameters from the lens like Samsung and Nikon Z.



Yeah, Two rings on prime lens, also wondering if that is a control ring. Then the control ring mount adapter makes more sense -- to allow control parameters through the adapter ring when using ef lenses, since obviously they don't have control ring. Interesting.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 1, 2018)

Sweet!!! Looks really nice


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

miketcool said:


> It’s a touchpad for swiping left right. Replaced the rear wheel. 21st century tech!


in that location. I know the camera is smaller but wouldn't that be a bit difficult to reach with your thumb? The rear wheel is easy to use because it is in the perfect location.


----------



## melgross (Sep 1, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> Nothing said both would absolutely come at the same time. There will probably be another next year. What's confusing is that this is coming in at 30MP when rumors had two models at 24ish and 40+ish. This first release is kinda straddling the middle, so thinking the next one may even be the rumored 5DSR Mk II (mirrorless version) with a 50+ MP sensor.
> 
> Would Canon even want to release another super high res DSLR in a 5 body if they also plan to make a high res MILC that can also accommodate EF glass natively? Seems like there would be no room for both.


Given that Canon has shown experimental 100MP sensors, and even up to 250MP sensors, I think that a ‘modern” version of their current 50.6MP sensor is more than possible. Adding the onboard amplifier as they’re finally doing adds 1.5 stops of dynamic range and noise ratio alone. Add to that a newer design to add at least another 0.5 stop, and that sensor becomes very good indeed.

But they might want a more sophisticated version with full dual pixel, etc. No reason why we shouldn’t expect that, though it will be me biting my fingernails until I see it for myself.

Love the lenses though. I hope they release a roadmap for future lenses as Nikon did. I hope these are all going to be available when the camera is, and not rolled out over a year, or more. I know Canon can produce more lenses a year than Nikon can with their new factory. Possibly that factory was built in preparation of needing a bunch of new lenses for this very purpose.


----------



## JBSF (Sep 1, 2018)

Lee Jay said:


> I'd give $300 for sure, $500 maybe, and $700 probably not for the body only.
> 
> I'm guessing that means I won't be getting one.



Or anything else that comes close to it....


----------



## miketcool (Sep 1, 2018)

Aussie shooter said:


> in that location. I know the camera is smaller but wouldn't that be a bit difficult to reach with your thumb? The rear wheel is easy to use because it is in the perfect location.



Camera is much smaller. You can reach the thumb nubbin on the 5D4, you can reach the pad.


----------



## LSXPhotog (Sep 1, 2018)

All of those lenses might end up being fly-by-wire....other than that, I'm excited. Several of these photos look incredibly photoshopped, but that could just be the low resolution.


----------



## PureClassA (Sep 1, 2018)

If this thing really pops in at under $2k, this will be pure market gold.


----------



## dak723 (Sep 1, 2018)

Wouldn't say that I was in the market for an FF camera. Many factors would have made this a no go. I sold my 6D as it was too big and heavy, so glad to see it is much smaller and lighter. Anyhting approaching the M5 is size would have been way too small for any larger lens, so that would have made me say no. The size is just a bit larger than the 77D - and very similar to my Olympus E-M1, so that really seems perfect for me. Since the lenses will have IS, IBIS is a complete non-factor for me (and I presume a very large percent of new buyers, who do not have older lenses). Eye-AF is something I would turn off immediately anyway. Two slots would be nice, but I expect one - and that is perfectly OK. Glad it soes not have too many MPs as well! If the price is really around 2K, then I may have to sell some of my old gear to make room for this one!


----------



## miketcool (Sep 1, 2018)

Tangent said:


> Yeah, Two rings on prime lens, also wondering if that is a control ring. Then the control ring mount adapter makes more sense -- to allow control parameters through the adapter ring when using ef lenses, since obviously they don't have control ring. Interesting.



Without the wheel to roll aperture, this would make sense. Maybe it could tell the variable ND to dial up or down too lol


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Yea I think so too.
> 
> Also, what's that new looking button on the back right below the top LCD? it's a long thin button with some arrows? A direction pad for left/right? What would that be for?



Yeah, I'm a bit stumped by that as well. The only possible thing I can think of is a zoom switch for a powered zoom lens like the EF-S 18-135 USM with Power Zoom Adapter PZ-E1. Canon also has a Cinema EOS lens or two with power zoom.


----------



## vjlex (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Doesn't appear to have a joystick to move the focus points. I'm surprised they would leave that out.
> 
> Also, given those specs, does anyone else think this may be the "high-end" model? It almost sounds too good to be true for a $1900 camera from Canon.


Yeah, that's my thinking too. While we still don't know the full-specs, I don't see this as the lower-end sub-$2000 offering. I think we're looking at at least $3000 for this one.


----------



## bokehmon22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Please confirm dual card slot


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Sep 1, 2018)

miketcool said:


> It’s a touchpad for swiping left right. Replaced the rear wheel. 21st century tech!



Hmm, possible. But why would you need that when you have a touch screen??


----------



## miketcool (Sep 1, 2018)

Sibir Lupus said:


> Hmm, possible. But why would you need that when you have a touch screen??



Because you can operate it while looking through the EVF.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Sep 1, 2018)

miketcool said:


> Because you can operate it while looking through the EVF.



True heh. We'll find out in a few short days!


----------



## keriboi (Sep 1, 2018)

Looks like there will be just one. Will be $3000


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Sep 1, 2018)

keriboi said:


> Looks like there will be just one. Will be $3000



Where are you seeing the price?? And it doesn't have enough MP to justify that price compared to the competition.


----------



## clicstudio (Sep 1, 2018)

I had this Pentax Auto 110 in the 80s. Looks a little bigger than the new EOS R


----------



## LSXPhotog (Sep 1, 2018)

Tangent said:


> Yeah, Two rings on prime lens, also wondering if that is a control ring. Then the control ring mount adapter makes more sense -- to allow control parameters through the adapter ring when using ef lenses, since obviously they don't have control ring. Interesting.



Good eye. Hmmm....I wonder what that is. Notice there are red lines with the text caption removed.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

I can't see canon charging 3k for a one sd card camera. They are very serious about making pro cameras that are pro grade. Given that you would have to see this as the prosumer model which SHOULD mean around 2k. Maybe a bit more but anything 3k or more would be 'pro' grade and would have 2 slots.(don't quote me on that as Nikon decided it wasn't necessary)


----------



## herion (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Is that an effective way to move the focus points? I haven't used any EOS M cameras.



I have an M5, it's really easy to move the focus point. It's even nicer on the M50...


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 1, 2018)

The goods
-6EV AF
Fully articulating touch screen is really good
Has 3 dials just awesome
Top display got an upgrade - Tony Northrup will be happy finally 
Uses LP-E6N battery
dust proof
Drip-proof
Mic Jack
Headphone Jack

Drop in filter on the adapter is nice


Unknowns. This does not mean I am expecting all these in body even if it is $3.5k just listing out the unknowns
EVF resolution
Focus magnification while manual focus
ISO range may be 40K based on data on the top display. 40K should be good for
AF performance on the EF lenses
OLAF
SD UHS I or II
FPS
Will AE and AF work on burst mode
RAW Buffer
Electronic shutter
Flash sync speed
Total shots in a single charge
IBIS
4K30 or 60p
1080p60 or 120
4K crop?
C-log?
HDMI output specs
# of shots in one charge
Focus peaking
Zebras

Negatives
All lenses looks like focus by wire?
Sounds like SD Card - not a problem if it is a $2k to $2.5k
1 card slot - not a problem if it is a $2k to $2.5k
Have to buy 3 different adapters if one where to make use of drop in ND filters and CPL.

Like many others I am also wondering what is that thing with left and right arrow?


----------



## FurryMan (Sep 1, 2018)

The 28-70/2.0 seems to take a 95mm filter. It is really not too bad.


----------



## jd7 (Sep 1, 2018)

I didn't expect to be too interested in a FF MILC but I have to admit the new lenses coming with it have certainly caught my attention! I will still needed to be persuaded about EVF (that may remain a sticking point for me as I really do prefer OVF), battery life and AF, but yeah, I've got to admit I'm feeling a lot more interested than I expected to be.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 1, 2018)

frnd.frts said:


> Zed is dead man...


nah. hardly. IMO if it had offered full EF w/o adapter compatibility it would have been more damaging. As it stands it is just a smaller mount than nikon's, farther from the sensor too (could it even see adapters made for R-Z? just wondering. Maybe it is too close, but I'm sure somebody will try and see if it can be done once all the metrics are in for all the appropriate distances and radi). More importantly it doesn't really have anything like a broader diameter for a medium format sensor or some other thing Nikon cannot copy. All 3 systems will have some lenses that are only "there" but not one lens is going to decide things. Not this early. Not for a long time.

I actually think this was the best outcome for sony/Nikon by far. Canon gets to support 3 mounts, gets to start over having to crank out natively mount glass, and as nice as the f/2 lens is, it is not impossible for either to clone and also not enough to really pull users away form the others for most of the bread and butter glass on Nikon is in fact adapted, as it will be on canon. So I don't see either camp leaving their system in mass just for one optic, and like with Nikon, I don't believe this obsoletes every canon DSLR to see a mass migration there.


----------



## herion (Sep 1, 2018)

Sibir Lupus said:


> Yeah, I'm a bit stumped by that as well. The only possible thing I can think of is a zoom switch for a powered zoom lens like the EF-S 18-135 USM with Power Zoom Adapter PZ-E1. Canon also has a Cinema EOS lens or two with power zoom.



My guess is that is the "diopter adjustment" - it's currently right underneath the EVF on the M-series (which is a major pain) - this moves it to a much more accessible position


----------



## andyhewitt (Sep 1, 2018)

F2，that is really mind-blowing.


----------



## nbaresejr (Sep 1, 2018)

IBIS or not. I’m getting worried about this. IS switch on the 35 1.8 and there looks to be a switch of some kind under the image of the camera with 24-105 attached.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 1, 2018)

Aussie shooter said:


> I can't see canon charging 3k for a one sd card camera. They are very serious about making pro cameras that are pro grade. Given that you would have to see this as the prosumer model which SHOULD mean around 2k. Maybe a bit more but anything 3k or more would be 'pro' grade and would have 2 slots.(don't quote me on that as Nikon decided it wasn't necessary)


Nikon didn't decide it wasn't necessary. They already admitted they didn't have room in an interview with a fairly well known site. Obviously they are telling themselves it was necessary about now 

this looks bigger. can it fit two XQD? not sure. It worries me they are not saying. Because after card-gate for Nikon, you'd think everybody would print it in red lettering and flashing signs: two cards!


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Doesn't appear to have a joystick to move the focus points. I'm surprised they would leave that out.
> 
> Also, given those specs, does anyone else think this may be the "high-end" model? It almost sounds too good to be true for a $1900 camera from Canon.



It does not look like a high end model to me. It looks more like a 6D type of camera.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

psolberg said:


> Nikon didn't decide it wasn't necessary. They already admitted they didn't have room in an interview with a fairly well known site. Obviously they are telling themselves it was necessary about now
> 
> this looks bigger. can it fit two XQD? not sure. It worries me they are not saying. Because after card-gate for Nikon, you'd think everybody would print it in red lettering and flashing signs: two cards!


Nikon could have gone with 2 sd cards. SD cards are getting fast enough now to handle 4k and are less prone to failure than CF CFAST or XQD so I don't see why you wouldn't go down that path if you can't fit a cfast and SD in the mall body of a mirrorless.


----------



## vjlex (Sep 1, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> It does not look like a high end model to me. It looks more like a 6D type of camera.


I wish we could get some higher res pix. I hope it has custom shooting modes. If this is under $2000, then yeah, I'm pretty much sold. I've been on the lowkey lookout for an updated second-body.


----------



## OneTrueKing (Sep 1, 2018)

Not a super fan of the design but willing to see how it actually feels in the hand. 
No Joystick - Ugh
No IBIS - Ugh (See IS on 35mm Macro) Why have it if there was IBIS?
Adapter needed for the new mount - disappointing vs the rumors (I know it was a great dream)

Not sure if I like not have a dedicated button for changing the camera's mode. 

Actual tilt screen!!! Yes!!
Decent lens starting line-up - I hope they release more than one with the camera.
Battery life will be questionable but hopefully good. I do like that they use a familiar battery though.


----------



## Chaitanya (Sep 1, 2018)

35mm FF macro out of the gate thats impressive. Now I can finally upgrade to FF setup without dumping my existing lenses..


----------



## sdz (Sep 1, 2018)

shunsai said:


> Yeah, that's my thinking too. While we still don't know the full-specs, I don't see this as the lower-end sub-$2000 offering. I think we're looking at at least $3000 for this one.



It may seem too good to be true, but Canon claimed it would innovate, compete and would not protect its existing product lines. Thus, 5D IV specs in the lesser mirrorless camera. $1,900 seems plausible, especially if Canon believes it must defend it's market position.


----------



## MrT (Sep 1, 2018)

Tangent said:


> Yeah, Two rings on prime lens, also wondering if that is a control ring. Then the control ring mount adapter makes more sense -- to allow control parameters through the adapter ring when using ef lenses, since obviously they don't have control ring. Interesting.



I agree - it looks a lot like the knurled control ring from my S100 P&S. it would provide a second control for full manual shooting (appature ring) since room on the back was at a premium. It might go along with some of the protocol discussions - a new protocol was needed to handle the extra controls


----------



## Respinder (Sep 1, 2018)

Hmmm.. not sure what to think of all of this yet. Lack of native EF support really hurts, honestly. Will have to sleep on it. :/


----------



## Sc1071 (Sep 1, 2018)

nbaresejr said:


> IBIS or not. I’m getting worried about this. IS switch on the 35 1.8 and there looks to be a switch of some kind under the image of the camera with 24-105 attached.


Plus if you look at the front of the pic of the R with the lens attached, you can make out Canon Lens RF 24-105mm 1:4 L on the front of the lens and then what looks like IS USM at the end. If so, not looking like IBIS.


----------



## dlmartin81 (Sep 1, 2018)

bks54 said:


> Zooms seem to have 3 rings and 50 has 2?
> 
> Maybe can adjust some parameters from the lens like Samsung and Nikon Z.



I wonder if they have built-in circular polarizers


----------



## psolberg (Sep 1, 2018)

Aussie shooter said:


> Nikon could have gone with 2 sd cards. SD cards are getting fast enough now to handle 4k and are less prone to failure than CF CFAST or XQD so I don't see why you wouldn't go down that path if you can't fit a cfast and SD in the mall body of a mirrorless.


yes. But from the interview they said they wanted XQD because they feel that's the future and the XFExpress compatibility via firmware. You don't need to argue with me. I think they should have put two cards because it would have saved them a ton of complains, if you don't like it, don't use the extra slot. I'm just telling you they said they didn't have the room for their target size. that's all. feel free to make what you will.


----------



## Flyingskiguy (Sep 1, 2018)

Why is IBIS assumed to be tied to the presence or lack of IS in the lens?

Sony and others have released many lenses with optical IS that works in conjunction with IBIS. Ex: Sony FE 70-200 GM OSS, FE 24-105 G OSS, Panasonic 50-200 OIS, etc.


----------



## JohanCruyff (Sep 1, 2018)

Sony is *******.


----------



## Charbax (Sep 1, 2018)

psolberg said:


> yes. But from the interview they said they wanted XQD because they feel that's the future and the XFExpress compatibility via firmware. You don't need to argue with me. I think they should have put two cards because it would have saved them a ton of complains, if you don't like it, don't use the extra slot. I'm just telling you they said they didn't have the room for their target size. that's all. feel free to make what you will.



I think there is plenty of space for 2 cards, sometimes camera companies representatives say stuff that isn't true.

I think more likely their current bandwidth system couldn't support 2 XQD cards, but it could have supported 2 SD card slots, so they should have used 2x SD cards instead of 1 XQD. Use XQD later once the bandwidth/CPU/cache/buffer etc can keep up to have 2 of them.


----------



## dlmartin81 (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Is that an effective way to move the focus points? I haven't used any EOS M cameras.



I have the M5 and it works pretty good. Actually, you can move the focus point around much faster and fluid than a joystick.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

psolberg said:


> yes. But from the interview they said they wanted XQD because they feel that's the future and the XFExpress compatibility via firmware. You don't need to argue with me. I think they should have put two cards because it would have saved them a ton of complains, if you don't like it, don't use the extra slot. I'm just telling you they said they didn't have the room for their target size. that's all. feel free to make what you will.


Not arguing. Just debating possible reasons. If they are deadest on XQD then fair enough. I wonder why they don't think SD cards will be up to scratch in the future. Technology has a way of beating the odds and I would imagine we can get a lot more out of SD's yet


----------



## sdz (Sep 1, 2018)

Flyingskiguy said:


> Why is IBIS assumed to be tied to the presence or lack of IS in the lens?
> 
> Sony and others have released many lenses with optical IS that works in conjunction with IBIS. Ex: Sony FE 70-200 GM OSS, FE 24-105 G OSS, Panasonic 50-200 OIS, etc.



Canon might believe that in camera mechanical stablization does not out-perform software stablization with lens mechanical stablization.

On the other hand, unstablized lenses would benefit from IBIS.

That's my guess at an answer to the question: Why does this camera lack IBIS?


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 1, 2018)

herion said:


> I have an M5, it's really easy to move the focus point. It's even nicer on the M50...



I second that. It is super easy to move the focus points using the touch screen as trackpad while looking through the EVF.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 1, 2018)

sdz said:


> It may seem too good to be true, but Canon claimed it would innovate, compete and would not protect its existing product lines. Thus, 5D IV specs in the lesser mirrorless camera. $1,900 seems plausible, especially if Canon believes it must defend it's market position.



Don't be suprised if they price it at ~$3k. Canon will eventually subsidize with Mail in rebate, free printer, free grip, free carepak, instant discount. So ultimately they will sell if dirt cheap and be the market leader in Full frame MILC too...


----------



## psolberg (Sep 1, 2018)

So for those of you that like to think about lens and adapters, if R's flange distance is 20mm and M is 18mm, can you make an adapter? how about if I give you an extra 2 mm to play. Yes, I'm wondering if it would be possible to see R-Z adapters. Nikon's larger throat and shorter flange (16mm) seems like the most adaptable mount of all. But could it adapt R lenses?


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 1, 2018)

Charbax said:


> I think there is plenty of space for 2 cards, sometimes camera companies representatives say stuff that isn't true.
> 
> I think more likely their current bandwidth system couldn't support 2 XQD cards, but it could have supported 2 SD card slots, so they should have used 2x SD cards instead of 1 XQD. Use XQD later once the bandwidth/CPU/cache/buffer etc can keep up to have 2 of them.



I was on NR reading through comments. I saw some people posted they prefer 1 XQD over 2 SD cards. Some others quoted if they added 2 SD card slot most likely one will be UHS 1 and that would suck. It takes for ever to clear the buffer with a UHS 1 card. From a redundancy perspective either 2 SD UHS 2 or 2 XQD would be fine and I would expect 2 card slots in a $3.5k camera. The new UHS 2 cards with speeds up to 299mbps are really nice. But one down side with pretty much all SD cards is their read and write speeds goes all over the place like sometimes at 200 mbps and then 30mpbs the next second then back to 90mbps when compared to the CF cards. I have not used any other type cards in a decade to compare. Personally I would not shoot anything with a camera that has one card slot if I am paid to shoot. People would argue there was only one film, only one card in older cameras, all true but times have changed so the technologies and people expectations. But it is highly debatable with no agreement or conclusion can be made.


----------



## KT (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> If the price is still sub 2k (or thereabouts) as rumored, I'm buying one. That simple.


and I would say dream on, the 30.3 MP sensor they have inside the R is probably a refined version of the same sensor from the 5D Mark IV. All things being equal, I doubt Canon will polish a sensor from a $3500 body and then offer it for $1900. Not to mention the R&D that went into the rest of the various systems (AF, metering, new mount, etc...)The world doesn't work like that.


----------



## scotty_dont (Sep 1, 2018)

Wait, so is the silver part on the back of the new lenses is a built in EF to RF adapter that can be moved in and out with the front ring??? Not sure I would call that "elegant", but OK.


----------



## NightPhotographer (Sep 1, 2018)

Dual pixel CMOS AF
EV -6 low brightness autofocus
Holyyyyyyy!!! My money is for Canon


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> EV -6 ?!?!?!?!?! Holy CRAP


NO KIDDING!!!


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Grip is smaller than I'd like (say Rebel sized) but thank goodness there is finger space for room between the grip and bigger lenses. A+ there, Sony and Nikon both ruined it there.
> 
> - A



... yes, there is a finger space, but it made the camera look a bit out of proportions (unpleasant) imo. Too much space on the left side, when compared with the right side - looks like immediately cut right after the lens. Also tall. Well, FF needs some size proportions, but I also want to like my camera aestheticall and it looks a bi weird. Hopefully it grows on me over time.

I also wonder about AF points selection controls - the likes of joystick, AF selection butoon, scroll-wheel. The images are small, but does it look like a scroll wheel there, or more a Rebel xy-way buttons?

We've got 5DIV in January, so will have to think about. Wanted to replace 70D with some small/cute companion for a street photography. Will wait for the M5/M6 II. EOS R, on the other side, with the price-tag and its specs - I wonder, where's the catch, as for 1900$, if right, looks like it could eat the 5DIV sales?


----------



## Tangent (Sep 1, 2018)

miketcool said:


> It’s a touchpad for swiping left right. Replaced the rear wheel. 21st century tech!



Touch pad is a good idea. But in poring over the tiny jpg it looks more like a toggle button to me. Maybe the value of the setting appears in the middle. Perhaps the default would be to set ISO, but customizable? Sort of a Quick Adjust Bar. Maybe it could be set to show camera horizontal level? Fun to speculate.


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

Flyingskiguy said:


> Whats going on with the 100-400L II image? Is that the 2x TC stacked on one of the RF-EF adapters?
> 
> This thing is..... a pleasant surprise! -6EV?! That's night vision. Flip out screen?! NICE. It's actually a pretty small camera, but with a deep grip! New lens design language is a nice blend of sleek modern with some of the classic EF lens look.
> 
> 30.3MP sensor... the 5D IV is listed at 30.4MP. Should be a new sensor then, right?


The 2x adaptor on the 100-400 is probably touting the EV -6 range. That's the equivalent of an f11 lens, so it would need high sensitivity to still work.


----------



## miketcool (Sep 1, 2018)

Tangent said:


> Touch pad is a good idea. But in poring over the tiny jpg it looks more like a toggle button to me. Maybe the value of the setting appears in the middle. Perhaps the default would be to set ISO, but customizable? Sort of a Quick Adjust Bar. Maybe it could be set to show camera horizontal level? Fun to speculate.



It may be a toggle as well. Either way I’m betting that is the new way to select left to right as the wheel once did. The iPod went from a wheel to a pad. Makes sense to me.


----------



## Isaacheus (Sep 1, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Oh my, it is aesthetically eve than M5. The proportions are terrible - cut on the right side
> 
> 
> ... yes, there is a finger space, but it made the camera look a bit out of proportions (unpleasant) imo. Too much space on the left side, when compared with the right side - looks like immediately cut right after the lens. Also tall. Well, FF needs some size proportions, but I also want to like my camera aestheticall and it looks a bi weird. Hopefully it grows on me over time.
> ...



Has the $1900 price been confirmed or is it just from last weeks rumors?


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

Liking the layout. The adoption of the M5's quick control dial with the selector button is very nice. Hope the customization goes way beyond that of the M5. If there is a M5 Mark II on the way I hope it has the same controls.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 1, 2018)

dlmartin81 said:


> I wonder if they have built-in circular polarizers


I hope not. not everybody wants a damn polarizer in the way. specially not at night.


----------



## tmroper (Sep 1, 2018)

Looks perfect to me, both the specs and the form factor (reminds me of the EOS 3--the pictures I've seen anyway, never owned one). 30MP hits the sweet spot for me, and a 24-105, 35, and 50 work perfect for me to get started (I still use the very first L lens I got, the orginal 24-105, a lot). Hope everything's actually good, and worth the wait (I've come very close to buying a Sony, but balked at the lenses).


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Oh my, it is aesthetically eve than M5. The proportions are terrible - cut on the right side
> 
> 
> ... yes, there is a finger space, but it made the camera look a bit out of proportions (unpleasant) imo. Too much space on the left side, when compared with the right side - looks like immediately cut right after the lens. Also tall. Well, FF needs some size proportions, but I also want to like my camera aestheticall and it looks a bi weird. Hopefully it grows on me over time.
> ...


I will kill 6D II sales. Better not try one out. Once you go mirrorless, you'll never want to pick up a DSLR again. Unless I'm shooting long lens sports, I choose the M5 over 80D or 7D II most of the time. The EVF is so consistent and you get to see what your exposure actually looks like. No chimping required! And when shooting in dark places or after the sun goes down there is no better option.


----------



## David Littleboy (Sep 1, 2018)

JohanCruyff said:


> Sony is *******.



Only if the price is under US$2,000 and it has IBIS. For somewhat less than US$3,000, the A7riii is looking real nice: 30MP simply isn't enough of a jump over the M5's 24, but 47MP is. And the fun Cosina lenses (40/1.2, Loxia 21/2.8, 10/12/15mm Heliars, etc.) will just work. And if the new Canon 24-105/4.0 is as nice as I hope, an adaptor might appear. Years from now, if Canon persuades Cosina to come out with it's fun lenses in an R-mount, and a high-res body comes out, things might be different here.


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

psolberg said:


> I hope not. not everybody wants a damn polarizer in the way. specially not at night.


Looks like the EF-EF-R adaptor has a version for drop in filters. Compare the cost of say a 52mm filter to an 82mm. If you lots of filters the drop in will be worth the $$$


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 1, 2018)

Isaacheus said:


> Has the $1900 price been confirmed or is it just from last weeks rumors?



$1900 is not even a rumor. Should I say wishful thinking of people? I would be pleasantly surprised if Canon priced this <$2k mark.


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> I'm thinking we gotta have IBIS here and while I'm hoping for Cfast2, I'm pretty sure I ain't gonna get it. I haven't used SD cards in a while, but if the newer ones can keep up with the read/write speeds, I'm good with that. I just prefer a more robust card (structurally) SD cards make me too nervous with their small size and generally flimsy nature


I bet that toggle with <> arrows replaces the quick control dial on the back. It also has the quick control wheel with selector button from the M5.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 1, 2018)

psolberg said:


> I hope not. not everybody wants a damn polarizer in the way. specially not at night.



There are 3 adapters. one without any filter, second with CPL and a third with drop in filters. You can pick and choose what you like. It is a smart move indeed but I wonder why the one with drop in filter cannot be used with no filters inside? If that is possible what is the need for an adapter without any filters? Dust and drip proof may be?


----------



## Dvash7 (Sep 1, 2018)

I sold all my Canon lenses except the 24-70 f/2.8 in anticipation of a FF mirrorless with no adapters.
I'm not feeling the 28-70, 28 just isn't good enough, and I don't need f/2.
Now with the confirmed adapters my last hopes are on IBIS.
If it also has no IBIS, combined with those adapters and the native 28-70, I'm just getting an A7iii.
It just wouldn't tick the right boxes for me...


----------



## RGF (Sep 1, 2018)

I did not see anything about FPS nor if AF speed is the same w/ R lenses vs EF lenses


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Doesn't appear to have a joystick to move the focus points. I'm surprised they would leave that out.
> 
> Also, given those specs, does anyone else think this may be the "high-end" model? It almost sounds too good to be true for a $1900 camera from Canon.


It might use the touch screen to move the focus points like the M5 does.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Ditboy said:


> I will kill 6D II sales.



Not if it costs $2500+. We don't know the price and we don't know major subsystem information -- IBIS, battery life with all the EVF bells / whistles on, memory cards, etc.

Remember the prior rumor said $1900 for a 28 MP camera. That rumor got the sensor wrong -- what makes you think they got the price right?

- A


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 1, 2018)

shunsai said:


> I wish we could get some higher res pix. I hope it has custom shooting modes. If this is under $2000, then yeah, I'm pretty much sold. I've been on the lowkey lookout for an updated second-body.



Yep I too wish there were better pictures. While I think this is the low end FF MILC I guess this will not be less than $2000. On the custom shooting mode I can only guess they will be there. It sounds like Canon made all dials in a way that they can be customized. Obvioulsy I am just guessing that because I do not see any marking on those dials. We will have to wait and see.


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Is that an effective way to move the focus points? I haven't used any EOS M cameras.


I have big hands and the M5 is very small, but given a decent sized body, it would work well. You can pick which quadrant you want to use. You can move the focus point with your thump while up to your eye. Think mouse vs joy stick. Very natural.


----------



## Antono Refa (Sep 1, 2018)

FurryMan said:


> The 28-70/2.0 does not look too big.



The lens diameter is twice the mount diameter, or ~100mm. That's thicker than the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM.


----------



## vjlex (Sep 1, 2018)

I wonder if this foreshadows the elimination of the EOS-M line. If they're putting all their energy into the R line, it seems like it might make sense for APS-C mirrorless moving forward to be R-mount as well. It seems like there are already almost as many R lenses as their are M.


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

Sibir Lupus said:


> Yeah, I'm a bit stumped by that as well. The only possible thing I can think of is a zoom switch for a powered zoom lens like the EF-S 18-135 USM with Power Zoom Adapter PZ-E1. Canon also has a Cinema EOS lens or two with power zoom.


Probably replaces the quick command dial on the back. Left-right, up-down, clockwise-counter-clockwise. It's all the same.


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

shunsai said:


> I wonder if this foreshadows the elimination of the EOS-M line. If they're putting all their energy into the R line, it seems like it might make sense for APS-C mirrorless moving forward to be R-mount as well. It seems like there are already almost as many R lenses as their are M.


I wouldn't think they would be introducing the EF-M 32mm f1.4 or make an EF-R to EF-M adapter. I have been saying I thought the M line would eventually replace the Rebel line, and I think these actions reinforce my theory. Don't forget there are strong rumors of a M5 Mk II also.


----------



## Jethro (Sep 1, 2018)

shunsai said:


> I wonder if this foreshadows the elimination of the EOS-M line. If they're putting all their energy into the R line, it seems like it might make sense for APS-C mirrorless moving forward to be R-mount as well. It seems like there are already almost as many R lenses as their are M.


Well, they're supposed to be releasing an M prime, so not exactly a sign of End Times.


----------



## vjlex (Sep 1, 2018)

Ditboy said:


> I wouldn't think they would be introducing the EF-M 32mm f1.4 or make an EF-R to EF-M adapter. I have been saying I thought the M line would eventually replace the Rebel line, and I think these actions reinforce my theory. Don't forget there are strong rumors of a M5 Mk II also.


Ah, right. Good point. In all the excitement, I forgot all about the EF-M32mm. I was planning to buy it, but will be rethinking that in light of the new mount. Three different mounts that share no native intercompatibility is going to be confusing.


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> The goods
> -6EV AF
> Fully articulating touch screen is really good
> Has 3 dials just awesome
> ...


<> is your new quick control dial more than likely. If so I will be interested in how it feels. One nice thing about the QCD is the "clickstops" so that you can feel how far to go. A digital dial might be hard to control.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Okay -- stepped out for some supper and a proper cocktail and now let's get into it.

[cracks knuckles]

1) I am excited. This is a huge moment for Canon, it's faithful, etc. Cannot believe it's finally here.

2) We know about (I'm guessing) 2/3 of the total launch picture right now -- what it looks like, a spread of lenses, existence of an adaptor, and -- if the specs are right -- we know what it is 'banked' to have. We still don't know a lot, though:

If Canon has another body imminently coming out alongside this first one. (Most likely not.)
Price: Feels like a 5D4 with the sensor + sealed body, but the controls are wildly different, esp. with the right thumb. And the grip is anything but built for pickle jar wielding pros. So in that regard it feels like a prosumer 6D-level experiment.
FPS / buffer: No idea what we're dealing with
IBIS: No idea if it's in there. We are reading tea leaves on two of the lenses having IS meaning that IBIS isn't on board. We'll see.
Eye AF: No Idea if it's in there.
Shutter: Max speed? Mechanical? Mechanical + E-Shutter?
Sync speed: No idea.
3) The only major major major unchangeable after this point is the physical mount itself. Canon is married to this mount (as well as EF, which is not going away) as it is committing major dollars to L level glass and an ambitious first blast of glass to the market. So that's locked in. But other things can still change with this platform:

If this body doesn't get IBIS, a future one could. Not putting it in the first model is not Canon's final word on the matter. Remember: Sony A7 didn't get IBIS until the 2nd gen.
Canon could 100% go tiny with this platform any time it wants: sprinkle a pancake here, a slow 85 f/2.8 there, and a neato 24-50 f/variable and this thing is ready to travel.
A Full EF mirrorless would be simple to do and could follow this platform to market if desired. I still contend it makes a lot of sense, esp. in the absence of a large-gripped pro body in (potentially) the first few years of this platform.
Okay, now let me have a look at this monster. 

- A


----------



## beegee (Sep 1, 2018)

With the three adapters especially the ND and the PL, does it mean the big white version IIIs are going to lose the drop in slot? Loving the prospects of this rumored device. Hopefully the FPS will be enticing or at least at the 10 FPS range.. cannot wait until the full specs are out..


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

I hope that is a thumb focus button! The thing I miss the most when I use my M5s!


----------



## neelzito (Sep 1, 2018)

What surprises me is the name. If it's just called "R" and not "R5" or something similar that indicates that they have not decided where this would sit exactly in the future line up. So this camera really might be somewhat of a test.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Getting away from specs, looking at the form of this body's design:

Delighted to see space between grip and mount. I do not need to fire up photoshop and superimpose this with a Z7 or A7 to know that Canon did a far better job here, and that this phenomenon will be far less likely to occur. Full marks here.


The grip is simply too small for my tastes -- looks Rebel-ish -- but it still looks deep enough (with the remove general bulk around the mirror) to possibly be more comfortable for fingertips than a Rebel SLR. Still, I don't want to slap my 70-200 f/2.8 on this thing. It too small to me.


The 'pentaprism' area is a fraction of the size of a FF SLR. It's a shocking side by side shot from the top in the marketing materials. Surely the same hotshoe, but speedlites will look like they are on stilts on this thing.


Canon did some 'differentiation with SLR' sort of form-dieting in specific paces completely unrelated to the mirror. Notice how the space between the pentaprism and the grip is lower than the business end of the grip. Sony runs flat across from EVF mound transition to the grip but Canon (and Nikon, btw) sculpted out material there for no obvious reason I can see. Perhaps they really want to play smaller/lighter to the hilt?


Neckstrap eyelets still haven't changed. I wasn't expecting them to, but a larger bore would have given folks more options -- C-Rings, quick connects, etc. become more direct (and don't need threaded through adaptors) with a larger lumen to hook on to.


No shots from the bottom, but the skinny adaptors without a boxy bottom imply that we'll get a vanilla threaded tripod/blackrapid/arca hole on the bottom. Surely it has to be there.
- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> The lens diameter is twice the mount diameter, or ~100mm. That's thicker than the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM.




As predicted, it's a boat anchor pickle jar shillelagh. Flyingskiguy saved me the trouble and posted this on page 4:




It is shorter than I thought it would be (looks EF24-105 ish), but diametrically it's a boss hogg. That could be a 3+ pound standard zoom, people. You might need the Lee SW150 setup (built for oversized / bulbous UWA lenses) to shoot landscapes with this thing. 

Zero chance you rest this (assembled with lens) on table and the barrel of the lens isn't propping it up.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Every lens has a textured ring around the terminal part of the lens barrel before you get to the hood attachment.










Primes have it. Zooms have it. _What is it for? _

They appear to have gone away from the textured engineering plastic I love (on the 24-70 f/4L, 100L, etc.) to more of a 'glossy matte' finish. Not a fan one bit. *Every surface of a lens barrel that doesn't have controls or rings should provide grip.* Sigma idiotically has glossy bits near the mount, and that can get slippery! I wonder if this textured surface was a relatively late add after the svelte black eveningwear look of the main surface proved to be too slippery in early reviews. 

But maybe that knurled ring ring actually does something and moves. Sets aperture for declicked movie work. Auto-snaps the VF to focus peaking mode or 5-10x manual focusing mode. Who knows?

- A


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

David Littleboy said:


> Only if the price is under US$2,000 and it has IBIS. For somewhat less than US$3,000, the A7riii is looking real nice: 30MP simply isn't enough of a jump over the M5's 24, but 47MP is. And the fun Cosina lenses (40/1.2, Loxia 21/2.8, 10/12/15mm Heliars, etc.) will just work. And if the new Canon 24-105/4.0 is as nice as I hope, an adaptor might appear. Years from now, if Canon persuades Cosina to come out with it's fun lenses in an R-mount, and a high-res body comes out, things might be different here.



I don't know that megapixels at this end are that important. Don't know exactly what Canon's initial price point will be, but I think Sony is toast. Look for Sony to move to medium format soon... where there will also be no competition in Sony's price range for bodies.


----------



## Famateur (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> But maybe that knurled ring ring actually does something and moves.
> 
> - A



This, most likely. At least in my world, knurled = it rotates. Will be fun to find out for sure, though!


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> As predicted, it's a boat anchor pickle jar shillelagh. Flyingskiguy saved me the trouble and posted this on page 4:
> 
> View attachment 180033
> 
> ...



But you know what? I happen to like big heavy lenses. I know a lot of people don't, but wow, I do!!! This is giving me the vapors! Not interested in this body at all. I'll wait to see what the higher end body has to offer. But wow!!! f/2? On a zoom? WOW!


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Few more lens comments:

1) No front views of that 35 Macro. _Might_ be illuminated like the crop ones, but there should be a button to cycle the lighting power and side (L vs. R vs. both), shouldn't there? I don't see it, but we only have one view.

2) I don't see single distance scale -- analog or digital -- on any of these. Wonder if (in its place) the EVF will tell us near/far limits of field...

3) Zoom and focus rings of the 24-105 are absolutely on top of each other. That might p--- off the gloved shooters out there, or dudes with huge hands.

- A


----------



## Famateur (Sep 1, 2018)

For those who haven't followed this forum for many years, events like these don't come around every day. take a moment to enjoy the thrill of a new, possibly landmark, release. All the build-up, speculation, ideas...that's what this site is all about, and we're enjoying it at its pinnacle right now.


----------



## Ditboy (Sep 1, 2018)

Here's another prediction. The cost of Canon FD lenses will be going up. That 50mm 1.2L lens can now be used on a full frame Canon camera again! I have bought several FD lenses in the last year to use with the M5. The R will be great for the wide glass. 24 1.4L anyone?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Ditboy said:


> I have big hands and the M5 is very small, but given a decent sized body, it would work well. You can pick which quadrant you want to use. You can move the focus point with your thump while up to your eye. Think mouse vs joy stick. Very natural.




I love love love this functionality, and found out it's not just a feature for mirrorless (tee it up exactly at 4:00 for what I mean):






_A @#[email protected] D5500 can do this._ I want this on any camera I own. My 5D3 joystick is money, but this might even be better (if well implemented).

- A


----------



## applecider (Sep 1, 2018)

Ok so some questions and I have to say I have not read the entire thread as I have been working on getting to the end of the internet and these threads really screws That up.

So the mount to EF lenses requires an adapter.... so much for sexy.

Of the new lenses the 35 macro and the 24-105 efr have IS neither of the f2 lenses do, certainly not a hard indicator for or against IBIS.

Where are all the sub ten post members of CR coming from, are they real unpaid posters?

I’m confused by the adaptor situation, EF R to EF?, same with drop in filter? Does an EF R to EFM adaptor exist outside the fertile imaginations of posters and if so why, and would that mean that video is cropped?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

shunsai said:


> I wonder if this foreshadows the elimination of the EOS-M line. If they're putting all their energy into the R line, it seems like it might make sense for APS-C mirrorless moving forward to be R-mount as well. It seems like there are already almost as many R lenses as their are M.




No. Sorry. No.

Canon's love of a market segment is not measured in how much glass it offers to it. 

Crop is Canon's bread and butter and absolutely keeps the lights on for them. Rebels are their unit monsters that fuel absurd economies of scale, the M50 is their ascendant darling, etc. Canon loves crop products.

They've just lived through fancier glass for EF-S ten years ago and realized it wasn't the right move for that market. FF became a non-$5000 thing and folks started wondering why they were sinking $1179 into a 17-55 f/2.8 IS USM that would never work on FF. Interest in higher end crop-only glass somewhat died at Canon. That doesn't mean they don't love crop and want to push the hell out of it. They just don't see a great return on investment on pricey EF-S or EF-M glass.

Canon will never be Fuji because they have a booming FF portfolio. Fuji doesn't, so they spoil their people rotten with all sorts of awesome crop glass.

- A


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

Yes, the body is exciting... but an f/2 zoom is giving me wood.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

applecider said:


> I’m confused by the adaptor situation, EF R to EF?, same with drop in filter? Does an EF R to EFM adaptor exist outside the fertile imaginations of posters and if so why, and would that mean that video is cropped?




You need an adaptor to bolt EF on EOS R. It's a thin mount body as many of us guessed. In the middle of the day Nokishita made an update from something sounding like an RF lens to EF-M adaptor into what we see in all the pics -- these adaptors are for EF to bolt on to EOS R, and the photos back that up.

The other two adaptors are presumed (but we do not know) to have captured filters inside. Not sure if these are modular (like a DI 52 in the superwhites) or if they are permanent, but one being an ND and the other being a CPL would make some sense.

- A


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 1, 2018)

Lens mount again - why is there that ugly metal ring between the lens and the body as a native solution? Looks like adapter in itself. So - no direct EF lens mount, probably disappointment to many. OTOH it seems direct mount of the EF-R lens is possible onto the EF bodies? My question is - why? In something like 10 years, DSLRs might be a second league. Is that possible, that Canon absolutly does not consider loads of their EF lens out there as a dead-end, and that even future FF MILC migt be released with a native EF mount? That would mean, that no matter what kind of the FF MILC you are going to use, your new EF-R lens will simply fit ... without an adapter ....


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Getting away from specs, looking at the form of this body's design:
> 
> The grip is simply too small for my tastes -- looks Rebel-ish -- but it still looks deep enough (with the remove general bulk around the mirror) to possibly be more comfortable for fingertips than a Rebel SLR. Still, I don't want to slap my 70-200 f/2.8 on this thing. It too small to me.
> - A



Same here, but dare we say the high end body will be bigger? I like to believe and hope so.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Famateur said:


> For those who haven't followed this forum for many years, events like these don't come around every day. take a moment to enjoy the thrill of a new, possibly landmark, release. All the build-up, speculation, ideas...that's what this site is all about, and we're enjoying it at its pinnacle right now.




Agree, it's a big day, but the pics and a spec list are not the launch. 

The launch presentation itself will be sexy and drop some knowledge we didn't know already. Looking forward to that!

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Lens mount again - why is there that ugly metal ring between the lens and the body as a native solution? Looks like adapter in itself. So - no direct EF lens mount, probably disappointment to many. OTOH it seems direct mount of the EF-R lens is possible onto the EF bodies? My question is - why? In something like 10 years, DSLRs might be a second league. Is that possible, that Canon absolutly does not consider loads of their EF lens out there as a dead-end, and that even future FF MILC migt be released with a native EF mount? That would mean, that no matter what kind of the FF MILC you are going to use, your new EF-R lens will simply fit ... without an adapter ....



Looks like they went stylistically for silver on silver.
​​​A few reasons they might do this:

1) Give a clear visual indicator to go along with the poka-yoke of stuff not clicking together. Perhaps now with a 4th mount and enthusiasts possibly bringing 2-3 different mounts to a shoot, they wanted a color code sort of reminder that 'silver goes with silver'.

2) It's possibly just a stylistic move. I'd prefer black if I'm honest.

3) I'm reaching here as this out of my wheelhouse, but _perhaps_ the two silver bits add up to the lost EF flange distance and could allow future RF lens designs to just quickly clone EF optical internals into RF specific lenses. In other words, a slice / cross-section through the silver bits could show all sorts of optical elements on some compact lenses, but on some 'EF clone' lenses, that same slice might just show air. It's possible the silver bits are the Sony GM 'lens tube' portion of some lenses. This is one way that on lenses that won't save any space at all (think pro zooms, glass longer than 100mm, etc.), Canon could easily make the same lens for EF and RF with one design team and a lot of shared componentry.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Same here, but dare we say the high end body will be bigger? I like to believe and hope so.




Has to be. Eventually folks who shoot white L lenses all day will want in on mirrorless and insist Canon resurrect their beloved 5-series / 1-series form factor. It's inevitable. They are not just being stubborn -- they're being practical. Big (unsupported) lenses needed the counterweight and grip of a larger body.

- A


----------



## Antono Refa (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> As predicted, it's a boat anchor pickle jar shillelagh. Flyingskiguy saved me the trouble and posted this on page 4:
> 
> View attachment 180033
> 
> ...



Considering the front element does not appear to be bolbous, and the lens diameter, my bet is on 95mm screw in filters.


----------



## mclaren777 (Sep 1, 2018)

-6 EV autofocus? No effing way that's legit.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> Considering the front element does not appear to be bolbous, and the lens diameter, my bet is on 95mm screw in filters.



Forgive me, I was making a joke about the SW150 because the lens barrel is so huge. 

Yes, a front filter would be a near certainty on that lens. No reason not to.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

mclaren777 said:


> -6 EV autofocus? No effing way that's legit.




By far it's the eye-popping spec of the day. If true, it's a staggering accomplishment.

- A


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Has to be. Eventually folks who shoot white L lenses all day will want in on mirrorless and insist Canon resurrect their beloved 5-series / 1-series form factor. It's inevitable. They are not just being stubborn -- they're being practical. Big (unsupported) lenses needed the counterweight and grip of a larger body.
> 
> - A



Heck! A 28-70 f/2L needs a bigger body. lol


----------



## sbbioman74 (Sep 1, 2018)

Wow -6EV?! Is it a combined value since DPAF is also there? So, the real value is -3EV? Damn!


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 1, 2018)

We could run a poll - now who thinks it has an IBIS? Knowing Canon, I would be highly surprised, if there would be no negative surprise to moan about, so my take is - no, it does not have an IBIS. What I worry about more is an AF though. With the 5DIV, focusing in LV is not well suited for even slowly moving person. I hope that this new tech is at least one generation ahead ....


----------



## Sidepod (Sep 1, 2018)

so, now all but Canon have Ibis? ... thats some big setback for sure ....


----------



## David Littleboy (Sep 1, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I don't know that megapixels at this end are that important. Don't know exactly what Canon's initial price point will be, but I think Sony is toast. Look for Sony to move to medium format soon... where there will also be no competition in Sony's price range for bodies.



Re: MP counts. If by "this end" you mean your needs, sure. But people with the 5Ds seem real happy. And decent modern glass has no trouble keeping up. So MP counts up to 50 or so make sense for folks who at least dream of really large prints. Which means the new Canon camera isn't speaking to that specific market. Perhaps not an enormous market, but a market. Add to that the folks who like ultralight primes, Leica M glass, and random funky lenses, and you're in business for the nonce. (Canon's 20mm flange distance presumably precludes Leica mount glass and much of the interesting Cosina glass. Oops.)


----------



## jeffa4444 (Sep 1, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> I'm thinking we gotta have IBIS here and while I'm hoping for Cfast2, I'm pretty sure I ain't gonna get it. I haven't used SD cards in a while, but if the newer ones can keep up with the read/write speeds, I'm good with that. I just prefer a more robust card (structurally) SD cards make me too nervous with their small size and generally flimsy nature


Sony Tough SD cards land in October. The article is on Canon Rumors. CFast are unreliable we have hundreds of them with a high failure rate much higher than SD.


----------



## crashpc (Sep 1, 2018)

Can solve that IBIS thing for ya:
No. NO! God, no!  It's not present.

Reading CR news, gives me morning wood too.

The adapter thing is not sexa at all, but with the initial lens portfolio, looks like ok.

The body is obviously rebel like, but Canon always asked a lot for their cameras. My guess is $2399 to $2499. A no go for what I need.

I further wonder if they go crazy and make EVFless version like M6 -- R6? Don't scream me out of the room for this thought. ;-)


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

David Littleboy said:


> Re: MP counts. If by "this end" you mean your needs, sure. But people with the 5Ds seem real happy. And decent modern glass has no trouble keeping up. So MP counts up to 50 or so make sense for folks who at least dream of really large prints. Which means the new Canon camera isn't speaking to that specific market. Perhaps not an enormous market, but a market. Add to that the folks who like ultralight primes, Leica M glass, and random funky lenses, and you're in business for the nonce. (Canon's 20mm flange distance presumably precludes Leica mount glass and much of the interesting Cosina glass. Oops.)



Eh. I don't know. What does "really big print" mean? Sure, there's a market, but there comes a point where the market is so tiny it doesn't count when it comes to ultimate sales. While 30mp is probably far beyond what I need (20x30 max print in my world... which prints fantastically from my lowly 5D mark III), when does a 46 vs 30mp image really start to make a difference? I have no idea. Probably doesn't make any difference at all for the vast majority. Might make a big difference to somebody that crops a lot. So yes, my needs. Problem is that a lot of people who say they need it really don't. It's kind of like buying a car that will do 200mph. We can do that, but then never go above 90mph. So what's the point of the other 110 possible mph? There really is no point except to say that we can if we really want to. 

The high end camera will probably add megapixels, but for my needs? Don't care. There's a point where mp are just a status symbol and not a functional necessity. To be honest, 99.99% of what I do is on the web anyway, so I could get by on far less than what I have. That's probably true of most. Not saying higher mp would turn me off from buying. Not at all. Just that it isn't a big consideration. The bigger consideration for me would be whether the high end camera ergonomics were right. Others have different wants. Wants and needs are two different things.


----------



## Jethro (Sep 1, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Eh. I don't know. What does "really big print" mean? Sure, there's a market, but there comes a point where the market is so tiny it doesn't count when it comes to ultimate sales. While 30mp is probably far beyond what I need (20x30 max print in my world... which prints fantastically from my lowly 5D mark III), when does a 46 vs 30mp image really start to make a difference? I have no idea. Probably doesn't make any difference at all for the vast majority. Might make a big difference to somebody that crops a lot. So yes, my needs. Problem is that a lot of people who say they need it really don't. It's kind of like buying a car that will do 200mph. We can do that, but then never go above 90mph. So what's the point of the other 110 possible mph? There really is no point except to say that we can if we really want to.
> 
> The high end camera will probably ad megapixels, but for my needs? Don't care.


30+MP also provides lots more options for cropping ...


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 1, 2018)

Charbax said:


> Can we have:
> - 4K60
> - 10bit HLG (a way to record proper HDR)
> - Dual SD UHS-II card slots
> ...


GPS? Am I the only one on earth to consider native GPS a must?


----------



## Aussie shooter (Sep 1, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> GPS? Am I the only one on earth to consider native GPS a must?


Possibly. First thing I turned off on the 7d2 and it has not been on since. Major battery drain


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

Most important news: as expected, Canon goes "SLIM" mount and parameters look "really right". 54 mm throat width (same as EF) and 20mm flange focal distance. good to go for the next 20 years!

so, as i said, Canon goes from 2 mirrorslapper mount versions for FF and APS-C (EF, EF-S) to 2 mirrorfree mount versions: RF plus EF-M . 

no, there will NOT be 4 mounts in the future. we may well have seen the last new EF- S lens launch already and i dont think we will get many ne EF lenses for the next 3 years, as Canon will be busy getting new RF glass to market.hope there will be an "official road map" as for Nikon Z. would be a "first" for Canon. 3 rd party lens makers will be busy to, trying to reverse engineer new RF mount lens protocol and AF commands. i'd sell Sigma stock if i had any. 

adapters are fine with me and i like the added drop-in filter functionality. those who want to mount EF "natively" can just leave the adapter on the camera ... or glue it into the mount, so they won't "loose it in the field". 

camera itself does look "decent": compact, just a bit bigger than I would have liked. but with good power pack LP-E6N. 

adapters are fine with me for the transitional phase.


----------



## Driftwood Project (Sep 1, 2018)

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but do I see an extra ring in the front of each lens? Do we now have manual aperture ring on the new EOS R lenses?


----------



## oXo_se (Sep 1, 2018)

It looks ok but 30 MP is a bealbreaker for me, I want 50 MP (yes I use them all) so I Think I will stay with my 5DSR until Canon realese a high MP FF mirrorless
and I think they will do that within the next 6 month, they will need somthing to compete with Z7 and A7RIII


----------



## Antono Refa (Sep 1, 2018)

David Littleboy said:


> Re: MP counts. If by "this end" you mean your needs, sure. But people with the 5Ds seem real happy. And decent modern glass has no trouble keeping up. So MP counts up to 50 or so make sense for folks who at least dream of really large prints. Which means the new Canon camera isn't speaking to that specific market. Perhaps not an enormous market, but a market. Add to that the folks who like ultralight primes, Leica M glass, and random funky lenses, and you're in business for the nonce. (Canon's 20mm flange distance presumably precludes Leica mount glass and much of the interesting Cosina glass. Oops.)



MP doesn't count any more.

The largest I ever printed was 60x40. Assuming the viewing distance is 108" (1.5 times the diagonal of the print), the required resolution is 60DPI. So the resolution needed is ~8.5MP. It was an architectural shot, so I used a tripod. I could have taken the shot with a 450D, and still crop ~30% of the frame.

One would have to be legally blind to miss the ads covering the side of a building, and that requires a whole lot more than 10MP. But...

1. One out of how many photographers prints larger than poster?

2. I'll bet those photos were taken with medium format cameras to begin with, and there poor in details. E.g. some are needed in the hair and eyes, but the skin was smoothed.


----------



## padam (Sep 1, 2018)

Driftwood Project said:


> Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but do I see an extra ring in the front of each lens? Do we now have manual aperture ring on the new EOS R lenses?


Yes, or you can customise it to do other things. Probably the same function ring as on the EF R adapter as well.


----------



## hne (Sep 1, 2018)

28-70/2L? Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch! And no mirror box bokeh ball clipping? I can feel the GAS bubbling.
Those red circles and lines to the knurly front ring makes me believe they're aperture control rings.
Another thing that strikes me as odd: That 50/1.2L lens has at least two side switches. IS?


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 1, 2018)

David Littleboy said:


> So MP counts up to 50 or so make sense for folks who at least dream of really large prints.



I have had a 5DSR for some time now, and have never, not once, made a print larger than A3.

The main reasons for buying high MP cameras are:

1) Cropping.
2) Downsampling to reduce bayer effects etc.

and, in my case, creating high-resolution zoomable images for online use.


----------



## oXo_se (Sep 1, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> MP doesn't count any more.
> .




MP Count and its not just for large prints, it gives you much more options


----------



## padam (Sep 1, 2018)

Looking at the mount I think the 28-70mm f2 is not scaled. It will be big (unsurprisingly)

Also, this is the 5D IV level camera, not the 'entry-level' one, that will come later.


----------



## KM6767 (Sep 1, 2018)

Do not understand the point of this camera, except the size! The same specs are in a 5D Mark4 even better! With a big GRIP professionally equipped for a days work in the studio or outside. The Glass is still big, of course with these f-stops. And I have to look into a flickering viewfinder instead of the the actual view through the lens. And again, I can't time a shot with a mirrorless system like it's possible on a DSLR or Rangefinder. But the real downside is the open sensor, accumulating dust with every lens change or pump of the lens. I'm a Photographer and not a sensor cleaner. I mentioned maybe a few points why canon is presenting so late this mirrorless system. I would rather see canons evolution into a different direction, but 4 now they obviously have to follow the zeitgeist ...


----------



## bhf3737 (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Every lens has a textured ring around the terminal part of the lens barrel before you get to the hood attachment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess the knurled ring is for focus as in all M lenses. But I think it also serves as a non-visual indicator when grabbing lenses. With the shape and size of the RF lenses very similar to EF, it could be confusing when having a mix of them in the camera bag. Though, just touching the rim will indicate that this is an RF lens.


----------



## scognamiglio (Sep 1, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> MP doesn't count any more.
> 
> The largest I ever printed was 60x40. Assuming the viewing distance is 108" (1.5 times the diagonal of the print), the required resolution is 60DPI. So the resolution needed is ~8.5MP. It was an architectural shot, so I used a tripod. I could have taken the shot with a 450D, and still crop ~30% of the frame.
> 
> ...


I make very large and perfect prints (140x100 cm) with the 5d mark iii. I bought some months ago the 5Dsr so I’m ready to print a billboard! 
This new mirrorless R seems great. But for now i’m Ok with my beast 5Dsr!


----------



## iheartcanon (Sep 1, 2018)

I have been refreshing this page and reading the comments since the start of the post, it really is interesting. Forgive me if I missed it somewhere or it is otherwise obvious but would the new rf lenses mount to my mark iv?


----------



## NicoN (Sep 1, 2018)

Best thing they did was removing the mode dial!
I never understood why they kept this even on the 5d series. The 1D series never had it and it was so much better (change modes remotely, no accidental changes) but I also liked the press and hold and move a dial on the 1D series which pretty much locked out all accidental changes of parameters. 
Hopes they use this feature to include unlimited (or more) custom modes, custom order of modes, TAv Mode like on Pentax and so on.
But what did they to with the space? It seems to be just the power button! 
If this is the case, I hope they include another m5/d800 function dial there on the next generation or do it like on the 1d and place buttons there which we could press in combinations.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

iheartcanon said:


> but would the new rf lenses mount to my mark iv?



no.

EF lenses can be used on RF, but not the other way round.


----------



## Sporgon (Sep 1, 2018)

So now we see where the styling of the G1Xiii came from. Or maybe this was styled from the g1Xiii 

The body is temptingly small for those of us that hike a camera around.


----------



## vjlex (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> No. Sorry. No.
> 
> Canon's love of a market segment is not measured in how much glass it offers to it.
> 
> ...



I was going back and forth on whether to get the M50 or wait for the M5 Mark II. Ultimately I decided to wait, and now this. I like the compactness of M, but if the EF-M catalog was so small and under-supported when there was only EF to compete, I don't see it increasing significantly now that it's up against EF _and_ RF.

To me an RF mount APS-C seems like a logical next step, but it's definitely too early to say for sure. And maybe you're right. Maybe market segmentation will just increase and never streamline again. I'm just thinking about all the adapters we'll end up needing: an EF -> M and RF -> M adapter for EF-M bodies; an EF -> RF adapter for R bodies, and an RF -> EF for EF bodies (has it been confirmed that RF will mount natively to EF?). Seems I have a very different idea of what "sexy" means. They've gone from one major mount (EF-S excluded) to three. That's just confusing and it makes one of the major features of buying a Canon lens (knowing it will work on virtually ANY Canon body) a little less appealing.


----------



## Otara (Sep 1, 2018)

NicoN said:


> Best thing they did was removing the mode dial!
> I never understood why they kept this even on the 5d series. The 1D series never had it and it was so much better (change modes remotely, no accidental changes) but I also liked the press and hold and move a dial on the 1D series which pretty much locked out all accidental changes of parameters.
> Hopes they use this feature to include unlimited (or more) custom modes, custom order of modes, TAv Mode like on Pentax and so on.
> But what did they to with the space? It seems to be just the power button!
> If this is the case, I hope they include another m5/d800 function dial there on the next generation or do it like on the 1d and place buttons there which we could press in combinations.



Amen. Cant stand the exposure dial on my M5, constantly bumping it by accident and over/under exposing..


----------



## AlanF (Sep 1, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> MP doesn't count any more.
> 
> The largest I ever printed was 60x40. Assuming the viewing distance is 108" (1.5 times the diagonal of the print), the required resolution is 60DPI. So the resolution needed is ~8.5MP. It was an architectural shot, so I used a tripod. I could have taken the shot with a 450D, and still crop ~30% of the frame.
> 
> ...



You must be legally blind if you don't see that it is common practice to crop and not just print the full frame. Having more megapixels is a real boon.


----------



## The Fat Fish (Sep 1, 2018)

It’s by far one of the ugliest cameras in existence but I’ll remain optimistic for the specs.


----------



## Uneternal (Sep 1, 2018)

Instant nerdgasm. 
If this camera is really gonna be below $2000 I'm buying it ASAP.
But as much as I know Canon it's rather gonna be around $2500.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

shunsai said:


> RF -> EF for EF bodies (has it been confirmed that RF will mount natively to EF?



not possible due to physics. RF lenses have shorter flange back (20mm) - cannot mount on EF (44mm). 

also: most people will only need 1 adapter: EF to RF.

and: mounting crop lenses (like EF-M) on a FF sensor camera is not of interest to majority of users.


----------



## iheartcanon (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> no.
> 
> EF lenses can be used on RF, but not the other way round.



Thanks for the response.
So no chance at all, not even an adapter or something?

Purely curious.


----------



## The Fat Fish (Sep 1, 2018)

That’s one ugly camera. Hopefully though the specs will make up for it (we have yet to confirm the 4K isn’t horribly cropped or some similar crippling).


----------



## razorzec (Sep 1, 2018)

I made some quick scale comparison between Nikon Z and Canon R and to compare their flange distance. yellow markings are for nikon, red for canon


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

i dont think canon will put a lower price (MSRP) on this camera than for 5D IV. would be really surprised if it comes in at 1999,-


----------



## Quackator (Sep 1, 2018)

The size is disappointing. I had hoped for a tool sized body.
For the rest ... time will tell.


----------



## Uneternal (Sep 1, 2018)

Judging from the pictures it also has a non crippled shutter up to 1/8000
Bluetooth, wifi, swivel screen.
Did Canon finally listen and made the perfect camera?


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

razorzec said:


> I made some quick scale comparison between Nikon Z and Canon R and to compare their flange distance. yellow markings are for nikon, red for canon
> View attachment 180036



thx, but image is not correct. RF 24-105 does NOT need the adapter (silver part).


----------



## Bangrossi (Sep 1, 2018)

From the leaked photos, I see there are no dedicated “iso”, “wb”, “drive”, “af mode”.. i need those buttons most of my works as event photographer


----------



## razorzec (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> thx, but image is not correct. RF 24-105 does NOT need the adapter (silver part).



I scaled them as accurate as I could with the flash mount as reference. 

Also the silver part there is not the adapter, it's part of the camera itself


----------



## Rakib Jibon (Sep 1, 2018)

There is no IBIS???


----------



## Kit. (Sep 1, 2018)

KM6767 said:


> Do not understand the point of this camera, except the size!


Autofocus at -6 EV.

But I don't like its buttons placement. I'd wait for a bigger one.


----------



## Ecto-1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Hyped! It actually looks pretty awesome.


----------



## Yasko (Sep 1, 2018)

Interesting times indeed. As I just bought a 6D mk II I am not in the market for this for another 2 to 3 years and I will pick myself the second or third gen of this toy.
As long as the adapter works perfectly (I can inly hope that is what Canon achieved, and I am very optimistic about it as it‘s an original one and they just can‘t mess EF lenses up and are still releasing them...) it is ok. i am no adapter fan but it seems we have to let it go .

Edit: 1/8000 shutter, 40.000 native ISO as it seems. LED shoulder display that can be „lit up“ more.


----------



## Stuart (Sep 1, 2018)

-6EV and F2 28-70 - Evening Event photography sorted.
How much for that lens though?


----------



## mb66energy (Sep 1, 2018)

I bought my M50 knowing this will - according to Murphy's Law - force the introduction of a FF mirrorless.

But no frustration anywhere because I like the M50's IQ and ergonomics despite the fact that I like real controls. Canon made the interface as good as possible for such a small camera and exploits the potential of the touch screen interface to the max. After a one-week stay in a youth hostel I enjoyed the light weight, compact size and the - for a mirrorless - very good battery life (300 shots, some videos, some substantial image review and "menu work", two bars in the batt indicator were shown at the end).

Maybe the M50 will get a big companion in the near future and I will be happy to have a sub kilogram FF alternative with all the goodies of DP-AF, FF resolution and low light IQ, Canon ergonomics (I am trained with) ...

Lens selection: If the RF 24-105 has very good and consistent IQ (over zoom range / over image up to the corners, good flare resistance) it might be "my lens" for every day use and the RF 1.8 35 macro seems to be a good alternative to the 2.8 40 pancake coming in at similar weight and size (if adaptor is included) for low light/ultra compact/very good flare resistance if it is not a true 1:1 macro with lots of lens groups.

One question: Is the ring close to the filter mount really movable or is it just for look and feel to differentiate the RF lenses from EF lenses? Hopefully it can be used to set f-stop or Exp comp or color temperature or ... - just thinking about a stop-less f-stop setting for video!

And, Canon, please give us a "setting creator software" - these cameras have so many options composing them on a 30" computer display would simplify things dramatically and give us C1 ... C9 at least via the personal menus!


----------



## JoSto (Sep 1, 2018)

The Camera is too small for me. I had the 60d and the grip just wasent tall enough. The lenses look great, I hope there will be full compatiblity with EF glass. For the future I will not buy any new EF lenses or cameras, but I will keep waiting what RF offers. I really hop for a 7d/5d size EOS R camera!


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> That’s one ugly camera. .


Saying it once was enough, fella...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

Rakib Jibon said:


> There is no IBIS???



Did anyone give you a reason to expect it?


----------



## random.lt (Sep 1, 2018)

Looks like entry level FF "Rebel" to me.
No joystick, no side buttons, small grip.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

Jethro said:


> 30+MP also provides lots more options for cropping ...


Indeed- and there's not _that_ much difference between 30 and 50 from a cropping point of view...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

Aussie shooter said:


> Possibly. First thing I turned off on the 7d2 and it has not been on since. Major battery drain


Yep - and I usually know where I am anyway...

(I _truly_ don't get the "need" for GPS in a camera...)


----------



## NicoN (Sep 1, 2018)

I hope that RF and EF lenses are compatible in a way that RF lenses would be able to screw on the EF mount mechnically. This would open up the possibility of a moving sensor like it has discussed before.
I did a quick drawing of it.
Maybe RF stands for Rear Focus and it would enable them to move the sensor in addition to the lens elements for ultra fast focusing with large tele lenses. Maybe nano USM directly in the body would be the right technology since its a high precision ultra high speed linear motor. Combined with a conventional IBIS unit on top this might not be trivial but doable.
This may also correct lens decentering by shifting the sensor or it would allow some kind of focus stacking in burst mode.

Edit: It would also be an inbuild variable macro tube for EF Lenses and might also help to lock in focus with manual lenses with moving the sensor the last bit into critical focus. So many possibilities…..Canon just do that in the 8000 USD EOS 1R !


----------



## Del Paso (Sep 1, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> That’s one ugly camera. Hopefully though the specs will make up for it (we have yet to confirm the 4K isn’t horribly cropped or some similar crippling).


Stupid Canon, they should have asked you to design it...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Every lens has a textured ring around the terminal part of the lens barrel before you get to the hood attachment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Canon bought a new milling machine?


----------



## mb66energy (Sep 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Saying it once was enough, fella...





The Fat Fish said:


> That’s one ugly camera. Hopefully though the specs will make up for it (we have yet to confirm the 4K isn’t horribly cropped or some similar crippling).



I made the experience that a lot of very useful things seem to be "ugly" but ... once you have used them I fell in love with the functional AND aesthetic design!
Same for M50: It's no beauty at first glance but using it you understand why things are shaped the way they are and you understand that the camera is not going into the way when trying to take photos.


----------



## mb66energy (Sep 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Canon bought a new milling machine?



No new milling machine, they adjusted the parameters for the milling machine of EF-M lenses!


----------



## Bambel (Sep 1, 2018)

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the 4 segment battery indicator so far..


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

Ditboy said:


> It might use the touch screen to move the focus points like the M5 does.


Lordy, I hope not - that would make it impossible to use for wildlife/bird photography...


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> no.
> 
> EF lenses can be used on RF, but not the other way round.



Isn't it actually quite the reverse? EF-R can be used on the EF bodies, but you need an adapter to connect EF lens to the new EF-R based body?


----------



## Antono Refa (Sep 1, 2018)

AlanF said:


> You must be legally blind if you don't see that it is common practice to crop and not just print the full frame. Having more megapixels is a real boon.



You have to be legally blind to miss the fact that with an entry level DSLR, you can crop 50% and print poster.

My heart aches for all the people who can't crop 75% and still print poster size.


----------



## Dvash7 (Sep 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Did anyone give you a reason to expect it?



Yes, Sony and Nikon. Honestly, if you're going to be asking for the same amount of money then you'd expect to compete on specs.
IBIS in mirrorless ILCs is a given at this point.
So, we're stuck with adapters, a 28-70 instead of a 24-70 and no IBIS? Yea, what a great way to enter the market!
Speaking as someone who's been waiting on this one for quite a while, the only way I'm not jumping to Sony is if this has IBIS.
If not, so long and thank for all the fish!


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Did anyone give you a reason to expect it?


yes. Sony and Nikon.

but i find this rather strange ... will Canon really launch a new mirrorfree camera without IBIS *and* new lenses for it without IS [except the 35/1.8 where IS is mentioned]? Especially the RF 24-105 "kit" lens ... no IS? 

Really strange. Are we sure the camera does not have IBIS?


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

psolberg said:


> Because after card-gate for Nikon, you'd think everybody would print it in red lettering and flashing signs: two cards!



Too late for Canon to do anything about it by then, though.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> yes. Sony and Nikon.



Sure, because Canon a_lways_ slavishly follows what they do...

Meanwhile, back on Earth, Canon will - as usual - have done its market research and made its decision based on its market. And - as usual - they'll prove to have gotten it right, despite what the internet has to say about it...

So - _maybe - _this camera doesn't have IBIS, but as other have said, that doesn't mean it's not coming.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

OneTrueKing said:


> No IBIS - Ugh (See IS on 35mm Macro) Why have it if there was IBIS?



Nikon produces stabilised ("VR") lenses, y'know - yet the Zs have IBIS...


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Isn't it actually quite the reverse? EF-R can be used on the EF bodies, but you need an adapter to connect EF lens to the new EF-R based body?



RF lenses focus the image at 20mm behind flange. EF mount cameras are much "thicker" [44mm from flange to sensor]. So it is physically not possible to use RF lenses on EF cameras.

But we can use EF lenses [44mm flange focal distance] on "slim" RF mount by adding a 24mm "extension tube" adapter to "bridge the gap". 

It only works one way ... ;-)


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

mb66energy said:


> I made the experience that a lot of very useful things seem to be "ugly" but ... once you have used them I fell in love with the functional AND aesthetic design!
> Same for M50: It's no beauty at first glance but using it you understand why things are shaped the way they are and you understand that the camera is not going into the way when trying to take photos.



Indeed - and we can't talk "ugly camera" without mentioning the Sony A7 series...


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

"no IBIS" - are we sure or is it only an assumption based on the 35 Macro having in-lens IS? 

Mabye - just speculating - the 35/1.8 Macro has a "specific IS" implementation [like e.g EF 100 L IS Macro lens with "hybrid IS"] that works in conjunction with IBIS or separately, but only in macro mode? Mabye IBIS is 3-axis only, not 5?

But again, just speculating.


----------



## freejay (Sep 1, 2018)

I have an idea for the strange left-right button between thump-rest and EVF: I think you will be able to quickly select what the control ring (either on the RF lens or on the EF adapter) is supposed to be doing!


----------



## AlanF (Sep 1, 2018)

Antono Refa said:


> You have to be legally blind to miss the fact that with an entry level DSLR, you can crop 50% and print poster.
> 
> My heart aches for all the people who can't crop 75% and still print poster size.



You don't appreciate that many groups of photographers, like wildlife, are often reach limited and need to crop small areas. Others need to reproduce high detail. We don't necessarily aim to print poster size even if we print at all. High resolution cameras sell well for very good reasons.


----------



## RickWagoner (Sep 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Lordy, I hope not - that would make it impossible to use for wildlife/bird photography...



The tiny size of the body and handling a long lens pretty much knocks mirrorless out for bird photography. Even crop body SLR users usually need a battery grip just for more stability with such long lenses. As cool as having the advantages of mirrorless for birds are the usability with such lenses is just not there.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 1, 2018)

I laugh at all the old people here still talking about resolution in terms of how big a print you can make. Go back to your darkroom, grandpa! 

I do primarily images for online. And with 5K+ screens (14 megapixel) becoming the norm images for screen display a 24 megapixel sensor doesn't end up giving you a great deal of crop flexibility. 40-50 megapixel sensors give much better options for cropping and/or downsampling images to be displayed at their best on a retina-style screen.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

RickWagoner said:


> The tiny size of the body and handling a long lens pretty much knocks mirrorless out for bird photography. Even crop body SLR users usually need a battery grip just for more stability with such long lenses. As cool as having the advantages of mirrorless for birds are the usability with such lenses is just not there.



Yep, true on all counts.

Most confusing, given the number of "expert opinion-havers" on here who insist that diddy little MILCs are all things to all men and "the (only) future"...


----------



## AlanF (Sep 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Indeed- and there's not _that_ much difference between 30 and 50 from a cropping point of view...


There is a significant difference between a 30 Mpx sensor with an AA-filter and a 50 Mpx without one. If there wasn't to my eyes, I would use my 5DIV all the time and leave my 5DSR at home. The pixel size alone gives 30% more linear resolution (66% area) and dropping the AA-filter a further 10% on top. My 5DSR is like having my 5DIV with a 1.4xTC built in. The 5DIV has other compensating advantages, but not resolution.


----------



## AlanF (Sep 1, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> I laugh at all the old people here still talking about resolution in terms of how big a print you can make. Go back to your darkroom, grandpa!
> 
> I do primarily images for online. And with 5K+ screens (14 megapixel) becoming the norm images for screen display a 24 megapixel sensor doesn't end up giving you a great deal of crop flexibility. 40-50 megapixel sensors give much better options for cropping and/or downsampling images to be displayed at their best on a retina-style screen.



Hey, I am with you and I am a grandpa! It's the old in mind but not in heart who are the problem!


----------



## RickWagoner (Sep 1, 2018)

My questions are

What is the DR and low light performance of the sensor? Hope Canon builds off the amazing 24.2 crop sensor than use the standard 5d4 sensor. 

Frames per second and how large of a buffer? if this comes with 7fps then forget it. 

And the most important is how long is the battery going to last? One of the worst trades offs with mirrorless is the horrible battery life they have compared to SLR's. I have hopes Canon is going to do this right with the LPE6 battery being used inside though.


----------



## symmar22 (Sep 1, 2018)

A couple of things I'd love to know : will lenses be fly by wire ? 99% of my work being on a tripod with manually focused lenses, focus by wire is for me the ultimate nightmare and is one of the main reasons I am not so excited with MILCs. I was waiting to know if Canon would go the same route as the other (though I don't know if Leica has FBW). The USM of the R-L lenses seems to tell that it will be both, USM Full Time Manual on L lenses and FBW STM on "consumer" lenses. I guess it's less of a problem with mirrorless cameras since you need power to see anything at all anyway. But my experience with my 40 mm STM has been so frustrating with manual focus, I use it only for AF handheld shots, despite it being somehow better optically than my old 45 TS-E.

Since we talk about lenses I am a bit puzzled by that recent Canon obsession wit super short macro lenses (28mm EF-M, 35mm EF-S and now 35mm R), especially considering the sub-optimal manual focus on these lenses. Plus slightly longer than normal lenses are in general more useful for close-ups.

IMHO IBIS or not is big question mark as well, from what I saw, the latest gen IBIS from Sony (will see with Nikon) work as well as classic lens IS. I like the idea of IBIS, since it doesn't force every lens to be bulkier, more fragile and the complication of the optical formula doesn't in general go with better optics. Plus as Olympus an Panasonic have shown, you can combine both. So I really hope Canon did not skip the IBIS. For me it's a real plus since I have quite a few vintage manual lenses as well. No doubt the future Panasonic FF will have it as well.

As much as I'd like to see a dual card in it, my opinion is that Canon (and Nikon) don't see these cameras as fully professional tools yet. My guess is they assume for a high end amateur market one card slot is enough, especially if the card are reliable (that is the case with SD and likely even more with XQD). Plus to be fair dual card is optimal only if the are the same speed. I personally never had a card failure (I know it can happen), but on my 5DSr, the SD is slowing down the writing so much, it's almost a joke (once again I do mostly slow photography on a tripod).

Finally about the sensor, I hope they'll have improved the 5D4 sensor, and finally removed the low pass filter.


----------



## padam (Sep 1, 2018)

Yep, both the M5 or the 5D have kind of the 'right' proportions for their respective sizes. But in real life and with a lens on, it will probably look better.

And having the same battery across most of the range is also clever.
But with the EVF I expect it do drain even faster than the 5D IV, which is also hungrier in liveview mode, around 30-40% more drain than the Mark III.
So I don't think it will be nearly as good as the newest Sony bodies.


----------



## padam (Sep 1, 2018)

symmar22 said:


> A couple of things I'd love to know : will lenses be fly by wire ? 99% of my work being on a tripod with manually focused lenses, focus by wire is for me the ultimate nightmare and is one of the main reasons I am not so excited with MILCs. I was waiting to know if Canon would go the same route as the other (though I don't know if Leica has FBW). The USM of the R-L lenses seems to tell that it will be both, USM Full Time Manual on L lenses and FBW STM on "consumer" lenses. I guess it's less of a problem with mirrorless cameras since you need power to see anything at all anyway. But my experience with my 40 mm STM has been so frustrating with manual focus, I use it only for AF handheld shots, despite it being somehow better optically than my old 45 TS-E.
> Finally about the sensor, I hope they'll have improved the 5D4 sensor, and finally removed the low pass filter.



Probably yes. But that's exactly what the EF R adapter for if you prefer to manual focus that way.

The way the video works in the Canon cameras, it doesn't make sense to remove the AA filter.


----------



## crashpc (Sep 1, 2018)

Bambel said:


> I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the 4 segment battery indicator so far..



Stupid Canon, Stupid! 


...That feel, when you reach for mouse to click on the last page, yet after the click, there is two more (new) pages making you angry, pushing you to read endlessly...


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 1, 2018)

padam said:


> Yep, both the M5 or the 5D have kind of the 'right' proportions for their respective sizes. But in real life and with a lens on, it will probably look better.
> 
> And having the same battery across most of the range is also clever.
> But with the EVF I expect it do drain even faster than the 5D IV, which is also hungrier in liveview mode, around 30-40% more drain than the Mark III.
> So I don't think it will be nearly as good as the newest Sony bodies.



5D4 battery is one big dissapointment, really. On the other hand, 5D4 has two older digic CPUs, so who knows if we can directly compare. OTOH R is going to feed EVF. We will see, but I don't expect miracles, more of recent Nikon cca 300 shots ...


----------



## Quackator (Sep 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> (I _truly_ don't get the "need" for GPS in a camera...)



Think multi-camera video and atom-clock precision timecode
across all cameras. GPS can do that.


----------



## AE-1Burnham (Sep 1, 2018)

Yesss. Take my money. When Can I order it (in Norway...)?!? Finally. Looks like it fills most needs here, and rumoured specs are sounding spot on! Memory cards are a big "?" but yeah, I am thinking as my personal camera not as my gig camera. (I no longer have to debate getting into Sony system for the advantages there and for that I am very happy!).


----------



## Antono Refa (Sep 1, 2018)

AlanF said:


> You don't appreciate that many groups of photographers, like wildlife, are often reach limited and need to crop small areas. Others need to reproduce high detail. We don't necessarily aim to print poster size even if we print at all. High resolution cameras sell well for very good reasons.



I do, same as I appreciate commercial photographers who print ads the size of a building wall. I just think they're a small niche.

Question is what you call high resolution cameras. If you mean cameras such as EOS 5Ds, yes - there's a good reason those sell well, reason being there are photographers who need that much. If you mean cameras with more than 15MP, yes - there's a good reason those sell well, reason being nobody sells cameras with lower resolution.


----------



## Mistral75 (Sep 1, 2018)

FurryMan said:


> The 28-70/2.0 does not look too big.


Approximately 10cm (max. diameter) x 14cm (length).


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Yep, true on all counts.
> 
> Most confusing, given the number of "expert opinion-havers" on here who insist that diddy little MILCs are all things to all men and "the (only) future"...



hehe. MILC supply side gets finally fixed. Sony, Leica, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic. Turning point reached. Now transition will be fast. 3 more years and 'slappers are more or less history.


----------



## Architect1776 (Sep 1, 2018)

Charbax said:


> Can we have:
> - 4K60
> - 10bit HLG (a way to record proper HDR)
> - Dual SD UHS-II card slots
> ...



Canon already makes video cameras with EF mounts with all your wishes. 
These still are still cameras with video capabilities for those who do still photography but want a bit of video. We don't want a video camera that happens to do stills.


----------



## Stuart (Sep 1, 2018)

Good idea announcing the battery pack at the same time, EVF's take a lot of power.


----------



## spandau (Sep 1, 2018)

A lot of the comments in this forum makes me think of a newborn baby getting its first feeding by its mother early but crying because her tits don't fit its mouth perfectly.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 1, 2018)

spandau said:


> don't fit its mouth perfectly.


Actually, in this case we are speaking about hands...


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

spandau said:


> A lot of the comments in this forum makes me think of a newborn baby getting its first feeding by its mother early but crying because her tits don't fit its mouth perfectly.



more like "the baby being fed 5 years late" ...

and if EOS R indeed has no IBIS ... the crying will start in earnest.


----------



## sanj (Sep 1, 2018)

Honest curiosity: What does this have that the competition does not? In my aesthetic sense, this body is ugly.


----------



## sanj (Sep 1, 2018)

Of course besides the Canon reliability.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> As I mentioned in the other thread the comparative view of the two cameras is not to scale (see the flash hotshoe)
> 
> I scaled the two so the hotshoe was the same.
> 
> View attachment 180023



wow, that mount ring/nozzle is ginormous. Looks like EOS R only had 12mm "real" flange distance and 8mm added by that extension tube.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 1, 2018)

When I got up this morning I was surprised to see that the faithful never slept last night. Postings were fast and furious all through the night. This is the most excitement that i’ve Seen on the CR forum. Pent up demand must be tremendous.

I’ve been musing about whether or not it would be optically possible to build a 1.4x teleconverter for use on EF glass that could mount to an R mirrorless body without requiring the additional EF to R adapter. Any optics designers want to take a crack at this? There is about 20mm to work with to achieve the magnification and focus shift needed.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

sanj said:


> Honest curiosity: What does this have that the competition does not?



we don't know full specs yet. Advantages i see are: 
30.3 MP sensor [instead of 24
DP-AF
-6 EV Autofocus capability [small print and caveats to be watched for] 
fully articulated LCD, left-hinged as it should be, rather than just stupid tilty-flippy [Sony, Nikon]. 

Other than that I am not even sure its got everything the competition has ...
30.3 MP @ ? fps
IBIS ?
Dual card slot? Which card type/s ?
Eye-AF ?
Buffer Depth ?
Shots per battery charge (CIPA) ?
4k/Video specs ?


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> When I got up this morning I was surprised to see that the faithful never slept last night. Postings were fast and furious all through the night. This is the most excitement that i’ve Seen on the CR forum. Pent up demand must be tremendous.
> 
> I’ve been musing about whether or not it would be optically possible to build a 1.4x teleconverter for use on EF glass that could mount to an R mirrorless body without requiring the additional EF to R adapter. Any optics designers want to take a crack at this? There is about 20mm to work with to achieve the magnification and focus shift needed.



I am sure Metabones etc. are all over it already ... 

And yes, pent up demand for decent mirrorfree FF from Canon is high. Even though some forum dwellers have been and maybe still are in denial.


----------



## Felix94K (Sep 1, 2018)

Looking at the pictures, there is a second switch below the AF/MF switch on all lenses exept the 28-70. So I think at least the other three have IS.



The 50 1.2 and 24-105 seem to be almost the same length. Very interesting since the EF 24-105 is about twice as long as the EF 50 1.2, even with an EF-RF adapter on the 50mm there would be a significant difference. I hope that means the 24-105 is smaller than its EF counterparts?



The 28-70 is definitely a lot bigger than the other lenses, although after hearing the f/2 I thought it would be even bigger.




> “Mount adapter EF – EOS R” “Control ring mount adapter EF – EOS R”


So that textured Ring ist probably called Control Ring?

Considering that the 6D Mark II MSRP is 2600 USD I would be very surprised if this one is under 2k.


----------



## JordanRushing (Sep 1, 2018)

Almost identical in size and weight to my T7i. If the remaining specs shock us and I end up getting one, at least it will be similar to what I already have.


----------



## Marc (Sep 1, 2018)

What do you think, the "Control ring mount adapter EF – EOS R" offers a control ring for all EF lenses and it looks like all ER lenses will have a control ring near the front element. Will this be a customizable function like modifying the aperture or the exposure correction?

It would be nice to read something about this.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

mb66energy said:


> I made the experience that a lot of very useful things seem to be "ugly" but ... once you have used them I fell in love with the functional AND aesthetic design!
> Same for M50: It's no beauty at first glance but using it you understand why things are shaped the way they are and you understand that the camera is not going into the way when trying to take photos.


Like the old country song said, "Keep your raving beauty and give me old heavy duty."


----------



## Maximilian (Sep 1, 2018)

I am officially quite impressed with what Canon is comming around in FF MILC.
Now let's see the full specs, the price tag and let the whine begin


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

Felix94K said:


> there is a second switch below the AF/MF switch



hmmm ... i cannot see a second switch? I only see AF/MF switch


----------



## NorskHest (Sep 1, 2018)

I just want to know why a new mount camera is being released with canons most expensive glass? Doe this imply ef will be around for 6-10 more years also all there cinema is ef I just got notification that my new 20 mm cine will be shipping soon. So will canon be abandoning those in the cinema line as well? I hope this thing has c fast.


----------



## J9canon (Sep 1, 2018)

I'm thinking RF lenses all have ND filters built-in. That's why they have an extra ring. It's the same with the mount having a built-in ND filter. Super exciting!


----------



## transpo1 (Sep 1, 2018)

So much excitement here- Canon finally comes through with FF mirrorless to go after Sony’s mirrorless dollars and risks cannibalizing their own DSLRs, as the Canon exec told us earlier in the year. At least, that’s the logline for this dramatic story 

The grip of the camera looks great- it’s unapologetically ergonomic in design.

I am disappointed about the scroll wheel though- that, to me, is an iconic Canon trademark and key differentiator with other brands- it just feels so nice. Maybe they’re saving it for a higher end model.

Key video questions are—

*4K video specs—*
FF no crop?
DPAF in 4K?
Clog?

If the first two aren’t true it will be a pass for me.

*Build quality / Weather resistance*
Drip proof? That must be a translation error- I would assume splash resistance.

Seriously, it’s wonderful to see all the giddiness on the forum this morning and looking forward to seeing what the true specs are. Thanks for being brave, Canon. It’s a big first step.


----------



## Christoph Müller (Sep 1, 2018)

The size comparison of Nokishita of the Canon EOS R with a 5D Mark IV is completely wrong!

I resized Nokishita's images to the correct size and overlayed it. The bigger red shaded camera is the 5D Mark IV. I used the hot shoe as the scale.
It also makes sense from physics that both 24-105 have the same diameter. The length is shorter exactly by the depth of mirror box the EOS R does not have.

The most impotent information for me is that the grip seams nearly the same size as the grip of a 5D Mark IV!
Very happy with that!


----------



## Felix94K (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> hmmm ... i cannot see a second switch? I only see AF/MF switch








There are definitely two switches on the left side of the lens, I'm guessing that's the 24-105 because of the focus and zoom ring.





And I'm prettty sure you can see a very small piece of a second switch, right below the AF MF switch on this top down view of the 50mm. The housing doesn't seem smooth in that area.


----------



## TMHKR (Sep 1, 2018)

EOS R rear controls identified, for those who can't see well.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 1, 2018)

Fully articulating screen ... I'm almost sold on that alone!


----------



## Etienne (Sep 1, 2018)

Felix94K said:


> Looking at the pictures, there is a second switch below the AF/MF switch on all lenses exept the 28-70. So I think at least the other three have IS.
> 
> View attachment 180038
> 
> ...



The 28-70 f/2L is big, and probably heavy, as expected. But it's a 28-70 f/2L !! That is going to be hard to resist.
Price guesses? $2500?


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

the ??? might be a "power zoom" control for (future) PZ lenses?

ouch, there is no mode dial. To me it is the fastest way to switch from Av to M or to C1-C3. And ofc I am generally very fond of AvTvM 
Why a dial and that waste of space for a simple on/off switch?


----------



## TMHKR (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> ouch, there is no mode dial.



The rear dial and its MODE button could serve that purpose, I guess? What is the purpose of this combination on M5?
Also, the < > buttons seem to be illuminated. Perhaps that "bar" really is some sort of display?


----------



## ElectroDan (Sep 1, 2018)

Camera looks good and nicely spec'd. With the new "RF" lenses listed having IS, I would venture to say the camera will not have IBIS. Works for me as long as the majority of lenses have IS, I enjoy not carrying a tripod on long walks.


----------



## bod (Sep 1, 2018)

Christoph Müller said:


> The size comparison of Nokishita of the Canon EOS R with a 5D Mark IV is completely wrong!
> 
> The most impotent information for me is that the grip seams nearly the same size as the grip of a 5D Mark IV!
> Very happy with that!
> ...



Hope that you are correct as this would be a big improvement ergonomically on other existing mirrorless body options for those EF glass users who want a mirrorless Canon body that will work well ergonomically with larger EF/telephoto lenses (not to mention the RF f2 range).


----------



## Felix94K (Sep 1, 2018)

Etienne said:


> The 28-70 f/2L is big, and probably heavy, as expected. But it's a 28-70 f/2L !! That is going to be hard to resist.
> Price guesses? $2500?


For the lens? Yeah, 2500 seems like a good guess.

I didn't realise that dial on the left ist just an on/off switch, seems like a waste of space.


----------



## Frage (Sep 1, 2018)

No comments on the small "multifunction panel" à la MacBook Pro?


----------



## Etienne (Sep 1, 2018)

Please tell me it has IBIS !!!


----------



## mikedidi46 (Sep 1, 2018)

Just curious, but have they listed a possible selling price for the camera


----------



## neonlight (Sep 1, 2018)

4 extra pins? EF certainly won't plug into EF-R. Also the interlocking arrangement has a longer top arc than EF.


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

KT said:


> and I would say dream on, the 30.3 MP sensor they have inside the R is probably a refined version of the same sensor from the 5D Mark IV. All things being equal, I doubt Canon will polish a sensor from a $3500 body and then offer it for $1900. Not to mention the R&D that went into the rest of the various systems (AF, metering, new mount, etc...)The world doesn't work like that.



Ha, "The world doesn't work like that." Thanks for getting me back to reality. 

Your logic hazards a reasonable guess. However 1) the Z6 and a73 are sub $2k and bear 6 fewer megapixels 2) The A7R2 is under 2k and bears over 40 MP 3) I said "thereabouts" 4) Canon does actually NEED prosumers to buy this camera, even if they are CANON, after all. Competitors do still exist, and this camera is unproven.

ETA: The Z7 is $3400, BUT HAS 45.7 MP.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

i find it strange, that in list of lenses, IS is specifically mentioned for the 35/1.8, but for none of the other lenses. so it does not look like a simple typo ... 

has canon not always denoted IS in the lens name?


----------



## bholliman (Sep 1, 2018)

The specs look nice. Not sure if I like the idea of a new mount, but they did succeed in making the entire package much smaller as the images side by side with the 5DIV and lenses show. I'll be interested to see the reviews on this. 

I'm happy with my current equipment, but will probably be looking at one of these or its successor in a few years.


----------



## ehouli (Sep 1, 2018)

Christoph Müller said:


> The size comparison of Nokishita of the Canon EOS R with a 5D Mark IV is completely wrong!
> 
> I resized Nokishita's images to the correct size and overlayed it. The bigger red shaded camera is the 5D Mark IV. I used the hot shoe as the scale.
> It also makes sense from physics that both 24-105 have the same diameter. The length is shorter exactly by the depth of mirror box the EOS R does not have.
> ...



It makes a lot of sense that the grip has the same size as the hypothetical specs states it will use the LP-E6N battery and the BG connector that goes inside the camera grip will require the same size.

To me, I like the way Canon handled the secrecy till the last moment and avoided costumers anxiety with weeks of speculations.

It's early to tell if the body will have two cards, but I'm 89,9% it will have SD card as market goes first, doesn't make sense to release a new system only for pros at this time, since there are lot of prosumers eager to jump to mirrorless and it will be ok for most to use SD cards readily available everywhere. Remember that 6D classic had only 1, the 7D classic had 1... so I wouldn't hold my hope very much that Canon puts 2 cards in there.

Other than that, I really think this Camera has big shoes to fill and probably won't fill them fully but close.


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

JohanCruyff said:


> Sony is *******.



But we haven't seen the official price yet.


----------



## Frage (Sep 1, 2018)

TMHKR said:


> EOS R rear controls identified, for those who can't see well.
> 
> View attachment 180043



From the Nokoshita site:

Multifunction bar installed (2nd picture image)
Canonrumors omitted it.


----------



## fegari (Sep 1, 2018)

Ok not bad Canon. If the AF performs at least as the 5D4, I'm moving to the R.

I mainly shoot with big 500/4 lenses buy always on a gimbal so the balancing issues of a huge lense on a tiny body is not an issue for me.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> But we haven't seen the official price yet.


hehe. my guess is 2990,-


----------



## Lobot (Sep 1, 2018)

I was thinking about that "slider" on the back. There is no joystick and using LCD as touchpad is problematic if you have left eye dominating. What if that "slider" is fingerprintreader type of touchpad. You really don't need much height to it for moving focuspoint up and down. It detects how your finger moves on pad from changeing position of your fingerprint.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

Frage said:


> From the Nokoshita site:
> 
> Multifunction bar installed (2nd picture image)
> Canonrumors omitted it.



quite some changes to the entire control layout ... but how could this slider bar replace (for example) the af-selector joystick? there is no vertical control


----------



## Josh Leavitt (Sep 1, 2018)

I think Canon will be in a very competitive position if this is their entry-level ($1,900) model. Even if it doesn't have the video recording FPS capabilities of the A7 III or the Nikon Z6, the 30MP sensor and DPAF will turn many heads at that price. But I'm curious as to what happened to the supposed 28MP full-frame camera we were hearing about. Is that one actually an M5 II?


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> hehe. my guess is 2990,-



IF that is the price, I don't think Sony is *******. A7III is sub 2k. 2k-ish or even $2400 is a really good place to be, for the prosumer market. Nikon Z6 is sub 2k.

As much as I want this camera, and to maintain my EF collection, I am not a pro and I don't spend 3k plus. I can get a used excellent condition a7rii for $1500, or a new a7rii or a7iii for $2k, and hold out for a "one day" future option Canon...maybe.


----------



## jd7 (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> i find it strange, that in list of lenses, IS is specifically mentioned for the 35/1.8, but for none of the other lenses. so it does not look like a simple typo ...
> 
> has canon not always denoted IS in the lens name?


IS seems to be in the name of the RF 24-105, so not just mentioned for the 35/1.8


----------



## 1Zach1 (Sep 1, 2018)

The rumors were sub-$2K, so I’m hoping that number holds true.


----------



## mpb001 (Sep 1, 2018)

I think that the camera is well spec'd for a first Canon FF mirror less. As far as IBIS goes, sure I would like to see it, but I have heard that IBIS is not as good as IS in a lens. Still, it would be nice to have and I think at some point Canon will include it because most other camera companies will offer it. If the comparison to the 5DIV is correct in size, I like it. I own a 5DIV and like it, but as a travel photographer, I see it as my last DSLR, mainly due to weight with L lenses. It will be interesting to see how the sensor performs. As far as appearance go, I find it much more attractive than Nikon Z7/6 bodies. They are pretty ugly, but a camera is a tool, not a thing to look at or ogle over. It's job is to capture good images and with the new array of mirror less L lenses, I am sure that it will do just that.


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

It seems that, once the shock and awe wears of just a tad (and to be certain, I am excited), the reality of price point sets in. That's really the question...where will it fall against it's competitors? There will be some "take my money" types, for whom there is no competition, and they've been waiting for years for this, but I think that that is a small market segment. In the real world, price matters, a lot, and especially to the "prosumer" market.


----------



## JBSF (Sep 1, 2018)

sanj said:


> Of course besides the Canon reliability.



A real hand grip. Canon color. Maybe a surprise or two (not likely at this point).


----------



## ecpu (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> It seems that, once the shock and awe wears of just a tad (and to be certain, I am excited), the reality of price point sets in. That's really the question...where will it fall against it's competitors? There will be some "take my money" types, for whom there is no competition, and they've been waiting for years for this, but I think that that is a small market segment. In the real world, price matters, a lot, and especially to the "prosumer" market.


Canon always seems to offer less for the money vs. its competitors. So, I would expect their 30MP mirrorless to be over the $2K price point. Unless all of the other specs just don't match the competition such as no IBIS, poor dynamic Range, bad 4K implementation, etc.. in which case they may price it similarly and hope the 30MP's sell it and distract from the other lacking areas.

Personally, I hope it is amazing in all aspects, even it costs more. It's worth paying for if the performance is there.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

jd7 said:


> IS seems to be in the name of the RF 24-105, so not just mentioned for the 35/1.8


 
ah thx, yes! did not see it in the first list. so 24-105 has is. 

ok, so no IBIS then. missed opportunity for Canon. probably in a Mark III then ...


----------



## Alino (Sep 1, 2018)

I expect EOS R+28-70= 5k $ (2.5k body, 2.5k lens)


----------



## Mark D5 TEAM II (Sep 1, 2018)

Meh. I was only interested in an MILC if it was in EF mount. I agree with LeeJay, these toys should be below $1K at most. Real men use OVFs.


----------



## mpb001 (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> It seems that, once the shock and awe wears of just a tad (and to be certain, I am excited), the reality of price point sets in. That's really the question...where will it fall against it's competitors? There will be some "take my money" types, for whom there is no competition, and they've been waiting for years for this, but I think that that is a small market segment. In the real world, price matters, a lot, and especially to the "prosumer" market.


I am thinking that Canon is considering the professional market with these new L lenses, even if this camera model is not the top tier model. Like so many, here, I have an investment in Canon lenses and have no intention of jumping ship. I have a feeling that Canon will likely bring back even Sony FF uses, if not for Canon ergonomics.


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Canon always seems to offer less for the money vs. its competitors. So, I would expect their 30MP mirrorless to be over the $2K price point. Unless all of the other specs just don't match the competition such as no IBIS, poor dynamic Range, bad 4K implementation, etc.. in which case they may price it similarly and hope the 30MP's sell it and distract from the other lacking areas.
> 
> Personally, I hope it is amazing in all aspects, even it costs more. It's worth paying for if the performance is there.



Actually, I agree. I WILL pay more because it is Canon...about $300-$400 more. But definitely not $500-$1400+ more. I understand that for a professional, this isn't as big of a deal, which is why I was commenting in reference to the prosumer market, and it seems to me that Canon would really want this to be a hit with the prosumer market.


----------



## MartinF. (Sep 1, 2018)

I am a bit disappointed about a RF mount and not native EF mount.
I do hope that a higher end EOS mirrorless will maintain native EF mount. 
I that is not the case, that will be my third mount sidetrack since my Canon AE1P with FD mount......


----------



## o2cui2i (Sep 1, 2018)

Is there ibis, does it have focus peaking, how many fps, how many cards and what kind ?


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> It seems that, once the shock and awe wears of just a tad (and to be certain, I am excited), the reality of price point sets in. That's really the question...where will it fall against it's competitors? There will be some "take my money" types, for whom there is no competition, and they've been waiting for years for this, but I think that that is a small market segment. In the real world, price matters, a lot, and especially to the "prosumer" market.


If you already have a lot of Canon glass, there are no real competitors in ff mirrorless. So as long as Canon is not overly greedy, they will get a lot of takers. Still will need to see real world hands on performance and hope there are no significant stumbles, but that is also true for the Z world. We know Sony and their foibles.


----------



## ecpu (Sep 1, 2018)

As far as I'm concerned, this looks like it will end up in my camera bag unless they screw up the video specs. It needs to at least match Sony/Nikon or I cannot buy it. I do too much video these days to justify having a new camera that doesn't perform in this regard. 4K, good codec, 10-bit, no crop/full sensor readout and 1080p 120 fps. This is basically the standard these days since its main competitors can do this.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 1, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> If you already have a lot of Canon glass, there are no real competitors. So as long as Canon is not overly greedy, they will get a lot of takers. Still will need to see real world hands on performance and hope there are no significant stumbles, but that is also true for the Z world. We know Sony and their foibles.



A lot of pros will pop one of these in the bag as a back up because of its light weight and small size


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> If you already have a lot of Canon glass, there are no real competitors. So as long as Canon is not overly greedy, they will get a lot of takers. Still will need to see real world hands on performance and hope there are no significant stumbles, but that is also true for the Z world. We know Sony and their foibles.



I think we agree. As long as Canon doesn't get too greedy...I'm in. 

But the idea that if you have a lot of Canon glass, that there are no real competitors, has been thoroughly disproven my amateurs and professionals alike. For example, the one lens I simply cannot part with is the 17mm TSE...which I can run on a Sony, gaining dynamic range, smaller size, resolution, etc, at a lower price point (against current Canon options). Yes, it is still not a Canon, and my preference is to stay native, but there is a dollar amount I am simply not willing to spend.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 1, 2018)

My SL-2 is 122mm X 92.6 mm X 69.8mm and 453g including battery and card. This is a bit wider and higher 136 X 98.

I do not have room for my fingers on the rear of the SL-2 and finger space on the front of the grip is poor, but the big issue is that my thump wants to hit the tough screen and move the focus point.

The extra 14mm might just make enough difference for it to fit my hand.

I am definitely interested in the ev -6 specification. I'm not interested in the new lenses except for the kit lens which does seem to make it a compact unit.


----------



## MaxDiesel (Sep 1, 2018)

Duel Pixel autofocus full frame on a gimbal! Enough said this shall be mine.


----------



## Antono Refa (Sep 1, 2018)

I didn't see any comment on this, so...

The mount inner diameter is 54 mm, same as EF, and the pins seem to be located in the same place, with additional 4 pins (looking in 1 to the left, 3 to the right).

I wrote the mount might have shorter flange, but still EF, if expanded by additional pins. Looks like I just might be right, but too bad the flange distance difference is just shy of 25mm, so that extension tube wouldn't be an adapter between EF and R.


----------



## luisbelo (Sep 1, 2018)

I’m not use to not be immediately disappointed by a Canon rumor. But they can still screw this up. 2x crop on 4K, bad codec, no IBIS; subpar dinamic range and ISO; bad autofocus with EF lenses, battery life...


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> I think we agree. As long as Canon doesn't get too greedy...I'm in.
> 
> But the idea that if you have a lot of Canon glass, that there are no real competitors, has been thoroughly disproven my amateurs and professionals alike. For example, the one lens I simply cannot part with is the 17mm TSE...which I can run on a Sony, gaining dynamic range, smaller size, resolution, etc, at a lower price point (against current Canon options). Yes, it is still not a Canon, and my preference is to stay native, but there is a dollar amount I am simply not willing to spend.


The new R camera may not cost much more than your 17mm t-s lens. Is that worth it to you?


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> RF lenses focus the image at 20mm behind flange. EF mount cameras are much "thicker" [44mm from flange to sensor]. So it is physically not possible to use RF lenses on EF cameras.
> 
> But we can use EF lenses [44mm flange focal distance] on "slim" RF mount by adding a 24mm "extension tube" adapter to "bridge the gap".
> 
> It only works one way ... ;-)



Thanks, your explanation makes sense, however it makes mi think - imagine a wedding Photographer, who would like to have DSLR + MILC as a backup body. If lens - so expensive ones - go just one way, it is a bit limiting. You can't use new 28-70/2 on your 5DIV? Not nice .....


----------



## Talys (Sep 1, 2018)

Looks great, except for the inability to mount EF lenses without an adapter, which makes me sad panda. I'm not sure how the adapter is sexy  Like everyone else, I think -6EV AF sounds downright amazing. Grip looks solid, and is it just me, or does the vertical height look taller than Nikon/Sony? That's one of my main complaints of the Sony's ergonomnics -- I really dislike the ungripped height.


----------



## bgoyette (Sep 1, 2018)

Not to reduce this down to a button, but the dedicated video start button is telling. Here’s to hoping that they follow it up with codecs in the gh5 mold.. this will be in every wedding photographer/vloggers kit, and maybe even this ancient commercial guy’s.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 1, 2018)

I can't stop thinking about 28-70 f/2 on a full frame 
I hope it's not terribly heavy.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Thanks, your explanation makes sense, however it makes mi think - imagine a wedding Photographer, who would like to have DSLR + MILC as a backup body. If lens - so expensive ones - go just one way, it is a bit limiting. You can't use new 28-70/2 on your 5DIV? Not nice .....



no big problem. In your example, the photog could either 1) put an RF lens, eg. 24-105 on the EOS R or 2) put the small EF-adapter on the camera and any EF lens from his lens park.


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> The new R camera may not cost much more than your 17mm t-s lens. Is that worth it to you?



Yes, it is, absolutely.

Your "may not" statement implies uncertainty about what the price will be; I share your uncertainty. I'm not naysaying. All I'm really stating is, let's not pretend that price doesn't matter because "there are no competitors". 

So yes, it's worth it to me to pay a bit more than my 17. I paid 2k or so for my 17. If the new "R" is 2k or thereabouts (up to $2500 or so) I WILL buy one based on what I see so far.

But if another camera can provide excellent results, superior in some measures and inferior in others, with quality build and support, and for a lower price, I'm not blind to that because I'm not a fanboy (not saying that you are). If there were a 17mm tse from another manufacturer that was (on the balance) equivalent, and cost 30% less, I would consider that too. In fact, I really can't justify Nikon for my purposes because the 19mm PC is $1000 more than the 17mm TSE...which is my whole point, actually. 

Seriously, I'm excited about the camera. I'm just saying that price matters to 95% of consumers...ask anyone who has had a marketing class.


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> no big problem. In your example, the photog could either 1) put an RF lens, eg. 24-105 on the EOS R or 2) put the small EF-adapter on the camera and any EF lens from his lens park.



Sure, and if EOS R breaks, you are finished, unless you have EF 24-70/2.8 in your arsenal too - that's twice the money


----------



## bitm2007 (Sep 1, 2018)

Why does the new Canon RF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM lens in the size comparison image look like it attached to the body using a silver mount adapter ? Surely this shouldn't be required with a RF lens !


----------



## Etienne (Sep 1, 2018)

Bonus on the LP-E6N battery. I've got at least 8 of these things from my Canon 5D II and III days.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 1, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Sure, and if EOS R breaks, you are finished, unless you have EF 24-70/2.8 in your arsenal too - that's twice the money


Lots of solutions. In transition, bring both since you probably already have the EF 24-70 f/2.8. Sooner or later you could sell the 24-70 and buy another EOS R with the money from the lens, and then sell the 5D4 and put cash in your pocket.


----------



## Woody (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Why would Z be dead?



For consumers, one key attraction of MILCs lies in the prospect of smaller and lighter setup. The new Z-mount 50mm f/1.8 lens weighs 400g, double the weight of their old F mount equivalent. Sigh


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

bitm2007 said:


> Why does the new Canon RF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM lens in the size comparison image look like it attached to the body using a silver mount adapter ? Surely this shouldn't be required with a RF lens !



yes, it does look extremely weird.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 1, 2018)

A lot of forum readers like the smallish form factor of this camera. I am not so enamoured by the small form factor. This may be the first time I would be interested in adding the grip to give me more hand space. The added battery would be a bonus for what is likely to be a power hungry beast.


----------



## Pooshoes (Sep 1, 2018)

I'm game for everything in this new package. The adaptor is no biggie, required because of the flange distance. For video will be great to have because of the ability to add the ND filters. C-log better be standard... Fingers crossed I can sell my 5DIV and afford one!


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> Sure, and if EOS R breaks, you are finished, unless you have EF 24-70/2.8 in your arsenal too - that's twice the money


i dont see a problem here, really. 

I thought you were talking Main camera = DSLR, EOS R = backup, no?
If main and backup camera fail, you are always in trouble.


----------



## Cdouglin (Sep 1, 2018)

*Battery: LP-E6N !!*

If the camera is good enough to be used a second body for weddings I like that i won't have to carry a different battery type from my 5 series


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> A lot of forum readers like the smallish form factor of this camera. I am not so enamoured by the small form factor. This may be the first time I would be interested in adding the grip to give me more hand space. The added battery would be a bonus for what is likely to be a power hungry beast.



I can see where you are coming from. If I carried a photo gear specific bag or shot in a studio I would have little use for a smaller camera.

For my purposes, it's great. I carry a briefcase / edc bag everywhere and go into the city a lot with a single bag. I want to ALWAYS have a camera with me, and for awhile this was a little Panasonic GM1 or a Fuji X-E3. Having the option to have ONE camera that can do it all and pack small and light is fantastic.

A thin and light FF mirrorless camera with a compact "all around" prime (pancake please) is ideal for my every day use, and I can slap on a zoom or a tilt shift for the days that require it. I now often carry a 6D with a 40mm pancake which I like...going even smaller and lighter, and with some additional resolution, video features and DR would be even better.

But for days where I am already going to have to carry a lot of gear and a tripod, or where I am in a studio like environment, a larger camera would actually be slightly preferable, as you mentioned. Options are good.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> I guess the knurled ring is for focus as in all M lenses. But I think it also serves as a non-visual indicator when grabbing lenses. With the shape and size of the RF lenses very similar to EF, it could be confusing when having a mix of them in the camera bag. Though, just touching the rim will indicate that this is an RF lens.




It's not for (regular) focusing -- each lens has a focus ring already!

Perhaps it's a customizable ring -- change aperture, snap into 10x/peaking mode, exposure comp, etc.

- A


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> I second that. It is super easy to move the focus points using the touch screen as trackpad while looking through the EVF.



So it works whilst looking through the viewfinder? That's good to know.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

Ditboy said:


> Looks like the EF-EF-R adaptor has a version for drop in filters. Compare the cost of say a 52mm filter to an 82mm. If you lots of filters the drop in will be worth the $$$



Hopefully they'll be cheaper than the Canon supertelephoto drop-in filters - the circular polariser is nearly £200!


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 1, 2018)

Quackator said:


> Think multi-camera video and atom-clock precision timecode
> across all cameras. GPS can do that.


Now you'll have to explain why I'd want _that..._


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> a 'glossy matte' finish.



Isn't that kind of a contradiction in terms?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> i dont think canon will put a lower price (MSRP) on this camera than for 5D IV. would be really surprised if it comes in at 1999,-




Agree, but we haven't seen all the specs yet. The Z7 is trying to be a D850 mirrorless and might fool some, but it's shackled with fine print and limitations. It's possible we've got a 5D4-like sensor here in a sealed body, but it has:

(Before people throw things at me, I'm not saying the EOS R will let us down in all of these areas, but possibly some of them.)

1/4000 shutter
5 fps with everything turned on (AF, AE each frame)
No Eye AF from the M50
1 SD card
1/160 sync
4K but no DPAF to go with it
No IBIS
Not on-chip ADC like the 6D2
No AF assist lamp compatibility with speedlites (Nikon Z did this for whatever reason)
So let's not presume it's a 5-series product until the real list comes out. I could see a stripped for cost $2000 being _possible_, but unlikely.

- A


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> It’s by far one of the ugliest cameras in existence but I’ll remain optimistic for the specs.



Genuinely intrigued: can you name a beautiful camera, please?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Isn't that kind of a contradiction in terms?




Yep. It's a luxe tweener finish between the two. It's semi-matte with some shine.

You describe it, then. 

- A


----------



## canonnews (Sep 1, 2018)

scyrene said:


> So it works whilst looking through the viewfinder? That's good to know.


yes, the canon implementation is really slick. it can be switched for left hand / right hand operation,etc.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

canonnews said:


> yes, the canon implementation is really slick. it can be switched for left hand / right hand operation,etc.



Thanks!


----------



## canonnews (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> I can see where you are coming from. If I carried a photo gear specific bag or shot in a studio I would have little use for a smaller camera.
> 
> For my purposes, it's great. I carry a briefcase / edc bag everywhere and go into the city a lot with a single bag. I want to ALWAYS have a camera with me, and for awhile this was a little Panasonic GM1 or a Fuji X-E3. Having the option to have ONE camera that can do it all and pack small and light is fantastic.
> 
> ...


you know, even a ESO+R + adapter + 40mm is still pretty compact.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Yep. It's a luxe tweener finish between the two. It's semi-matte with some shine.
> 
> You describe it, then.
> 
> - A



I wouldn't dare! But when buying paint, the one between matt(e) and gloss is 'satin'


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

Uneternal said:


> Judging from the pictures it also has a non crippled shutter up to 1/8000
> Bluetooth, wifi, swivel screen.
> Did Canon finally listen and made the perfect camera?



Nope, because there's no such thing


----------



## Karlbug (Sep 1, 2018)

I've scaled the R's hotshoe to 5D/80D's and aligned backs. (It's probably not pixel-perfect.)


----------



## CanoKnight (Sep 1, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



We don't know the 4k specs for sure yet, but from a aesthetic viewpoint I give it a solid 2/10. Looks like a cheap Rebel camera. Maybe that's what the R is for.


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

canonnews said:


> you know, even a ESO+R + adapter + 40mm is still pretty compact.



Yes, I was thinking that too. I wonder how this would compare, overall, with the new 35mm 1.8 in terms of compactness. While I like the 40, I would like it even more if it were 1.8 ! The macro part doesn't hurt either!


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Mistral75 said:


> Approximately 10cm (max. diameter) x 14cm (length).




_Do_ catch up, people.  It's not long but it's a damn linebacker diametrically -- odds of fitting in your standard 80mm lens slot in your bag are officially zero. 
Surely heavy as hell to boot. I'm geeked about the prospect of it, but I'm also wincing at the high 'reality price' that physics demands we pay for this.

​
- A


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

scyrene said:


> Genuinely intrigued: can you name a beautiful camera, please?



IMO, there are Fuji's that are close.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> more like "the baby being fed 5 years late" ...
> 
> and if EOS R indeed has no IBIS ... the crying will start in earnest.




1) As you've already said, we don't know if it does / doesn't have it yet. We do not know.

2) If we don't get it, that's not like it means that ship has sailed and the platform will never get it. A7 /A7R I didn't have it and it was added in the 2nd gen. 

3) It's possible that Canon believes that this first gen will largely be used with folks adapting EF lenses with IS (and 2 of the 4 new lenses), and that IBIS is a 2nd gen (or higher spec'd larger body to come ) sort of move for them.

- A


----------



## Architect1776 (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Why? Nikon Z seems very similar to me. A new FF mount that requires an adapter to use existing lenses. Why would Z be dead?



All your EF lenss will be fully functional. 
Nikon will have very limited functionality if any for a vast majority of F lenses. Including the huge number of AF lenses and who knows what others. 
At least every EF lens I own will work just fine and a huge giant bonus I can now use ALL my FD, FL and R lenses with no optic in the adapter to degrade the image. 
I am incredibly happy with this R series. 
Way to go Cannon


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Felix94K said:


> Considering that the 6D Mark II MSRP is 2600 USD I would be very surprised if this one is under 2k.




People aren't referring to the kit price, they are referring to the US body only price.

The 6D2 is a $1599 camera presently in the US, but we think of it how it launched at a ~$2k price point. Many people believe that this is where the action is for the enthusiast FF market.

But not knowing the specs, we could have a D850-->Z7 sort of situation here, and this might be a mirrorless 5D4 and not a mirrorless 6D2. The sensor is not always a clear tell. We need to know more about the other specs first.

- A


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Yep - and I usually know where I am anyway...
> 
> (I _truly_ don't get the "need" for GPS in a camera...)



Niche for sure, but I have done (and know people who do) nature photography for the recording of species, e.g. plants, and it would be a boon for the later submission of records to central databases. Also, when hiking it would be nice to know precisely where each shot was taken (but I don't miss the feature on my camera, which doesn't have it; my phone does though, and that can be useful).


----------



## Refurb7 (Sep 1, 2018)

The Fat Fish said:


> It’s by far one of the ugliest cameras in existence but I’ll remain optimistic for the specs.


Looks quite beautiful to me.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> IMO, there are Fuji's that are close.



Fair enough. In general, I find most cameras look more of less the same, but I'm clearly not a connoisseur


----------



## TMHKR (Sep 1, 2018)

Did anyone notice the lack of DoF preview button?


----------



## Refurb7 (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> IMO, there are Fuji's that are close.


I disagree. Fuji is just functional, not beautiful. Canon designers manage to do both functional and beautiful at the same time.


----------



## bokehmon22 (Sep 1, 2018)

[


Cdouglin said:


> *Battery: LP-E6N !!*
> 
> If the camera is good enough to be used a second body for weddings I like that i won't have to carry a different battery type from my 5 series



If it doesn't have dual card slot, I'll use it as my second body for wedding too and family vacation/engagement.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 1, 2018)

angrykarl said:


> I've scaled the R's hotshoe to 5D/80D's and aligned backs. (It's probably not pixel-perfect.)
> 
> View attachment 180053


From your scaling, I would have to say that the R has the most “wrapped finger” space of your examples. Did not expect that!


----------



## dkangel (Sep 1, 2018)

angrykarl said:


> I've scaled the R's hotshoe to 5D/80D's and aligned backs. (It's probably not pixel-perfect.)
> 
> View attachment 180053


Would have liked to see the M50 in there as well. Strictly for size comparison with the new mirrorless.


----------



## ethanz (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> _Do_ catch up, people.  It's not long but it's a damn linebacker diametrically -- odds of fitting in your standard 80mm lens slot in your bag are officially zero.
> Surely heavy as hell to boot. I'm geeked about the prospect of it, but I'm also wincing at the high 'reality price' that physics demands we pay for this.
> 
> View attachment 180054​
> - A



The 28-70 looks like a tight fit for fingers on the right hand!


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

TMHKR said:


> Did anyone notice the lack of DoF preview button?


What purpose would it serve?


----------



## Frage (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> quite some changes to the entire control layout ... but how could this slider bar replace (for example) the af-selector joystick? there is no vertical control


Via touch Display, like in the M50. I love that feature.


----------



## Yasko (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Why? Nikon Z seems very similar to me. A new FF mount that requires an adapter to use existing lenses. Why would Z be dead?



Well, apart from those wanting to continue to use their Nikon lenses Canon has some Pros and some Cons. There is the better AF of Canon, lenspark is better (in my eyes), but that doesnt change the mind of a Nikon shooter. Sensor performance is on Nikons side... I guess you‘re right. Everything will stay as it is as of now.



KT said:


> and I would say dream on, the 30.3 MP sensor they have inside the R is probably a refined version of the same sensor from the 5D Mark IV. All things being equal, I doubt Canon will polish a sensor from a $3500 body and then offer it for $1900. Not to mention the R&D that went into the rest of the various systems (AF, metering, new mount, etc...)The world doesn't work like that.



They took the sensor from the 80D and put it into the 200D, so I don‘t see why they shouldn‘t put the 5D mk IV sensor into another FF camera that costs less. Much more cost efficient than producing a whole new sensor.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Agree, but we haven't seen all the specs yet. The Z7 is trying to be a D850 mirrorless and might fool some, but it's shackled with fine print and limitations. It's possible we've got a 5D4-like sensor here in a sealed body, but it has:
> 
> 1/4000 shutter



Assuming the images are legit, it shows a 1/8000 shutter speed (and ISO 40,000, Bluetooth and Wifi).


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

TMHKR said:


> Did anyone notice the lack of DoF preview button?



no. Don't miss it, never ever use it.


----------



## Felix94K (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> People aren't referring to the kit price, they are referring to the US body only price.



Oh yes you're right, 2600$ was the kit price, 2000$ was indeed the launch price for just the Body in the US. Guess I was a bit confused by our EU prices.
2k for the EOS R still semms a little low imo, but it could be possible, well unless it's intended to be a mirrorless 5D Mk4.



ahsanford said:


> 1/4000 shutter
> 5 fps with everything turned on (AF, AE each frame)
> No Eye AF from the M50
> 1 SD card
> ...


Just a small note but the top screen says 8000 in all pictures, so hopefully not just 1/4000 shutter


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

ecpu said:


> Canon always seems to offer less for the money vs. its competitors.



Your perception must be about the bodies. It certainly isn't true when it comes to lenses.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

TMHKR said:


> Did anyone notice the lack of DoF preview button?


Don't need it with mirrorless. I have never used mine on my 5D Mark III either.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 1, 2018)

Only started today and already 21 pages???Sheesh!
I don't have time to read all 21 pages so will ask and apologise if this is repeating someone else. Does a AF at -6EV suggest a new type of sensor as well? Or do we suspect it is the 5DIV sensor?


----------



## MartinF. (Sep 1, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Don't need it with mirrorless. I have never used mine on my 5D Mark III either.


Well I like it a lot, but of course you don't need in i mirrorless, as you see the picture as it will be exposed in the EVF.


----------



## amorse (Sep 1, 2018)

Wow! I'm certainly late to the party here.

Question regarding the -6ev focusing for those with a better understanding than myself (and my apologies if it's been answered already): if the camera can focus down the -6ev, could that have implications for minimum aperture for focusing? I.e. could you potentially retain autofocus on a 100-400 with a 2x teleconverter?

Also, I'm not one to care too much on what a camera looks like, but I really like the look of this camera.


----------



## Jim Saunders (Sep 1, 2018)

28-70 f/2, quiet, discreet? Sounds like a good start for a wedding camera. Now if the b*gger thing will sync a flash to 1/1000 I might be willing to part with my 200-400 for one of these and a 100-400.

Jim


----------



## canonnews (Sep 1, 2018)

angrykarl said:


> I've scaled the R's hotshoe to 5D/80D's and aligned backs. (It's probably not pixel-perfect.)
> 
> View attachment 180053


that's a great summary image. thanks.


----------



## Deleted member 378664 (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> People aren't referring to the kit price, they are referring to the US body only price.
> 
> The 6D2 is a $1599 camera presently in the US, but we think of it how it launched at a ~$2k price point. Many people is where the action is for the enthusiast FF market.
> 
> ...


I think we can say good-bye to the DSLR classification we are used to. The mirrorless do have partly other spec sheets and will create their own classifications. We shouldn't compare the EOS R to a 6D2 or 5DIV. Instead we do have a first mirrorless FF from Canon. This one will not necessarily have the same target customers as a 6D2 or a 5DIV. Only some overlap with either of both. There will surely be some inherent mirrorless disadvantages in the years to come that many people will cause to keep their current DSLR for the time being. So there will be new target customers which can tick most of their wishboxes with an EOS R. Others will skip these first FF Mirrorless cams as long as they do not support functions they are used to on their DSLRs.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

bitm2007 said:


> Why does the new Canon RF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM lens in the size comparison image look like it attached to the body using a silver mount adapter ? Surely this shouldn't be required with a RF lens !



Isn't that just the back end of the lens?


----------



## Del Paso (Sep 1, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Your perception must be about the bodies. It certainly isn't true when it comes to lenses.


Less specs maybe, but better quality...


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> i find it strange, that in list of lenses, IS is specifically mentioned for the 35/1.8, but for none of the other lenses. so it does not look like a simple typo ...
> 
> has canon not always denoted IS in the lens name?




If it has IS, it's in the name. 

The 24-105 has IS on the spec list as well.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

1Zach1 said:


> The rumors were sub-$2K, so I’m hoping that number holds true.




That same rumor had a 28 MP sensor, which implies it was bogus.

Also, a 5D4 resolution sensor dropping into a $2k body may be wishful thinking. We'll see when the rest of the specs are outed.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

JBSF said:


> A real hand grip. Canon color. Maybe a surprise or two (not likely at this point).




100% there will be a surprise, but it won't be something horsepower related. We won't see 14 FPS or a 100 shot RAW buffer.

But the controls may have a slick hand to play. Curious to see the L-R slidey thumb sensor doodad and how it works.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Meh. I was only interested in an MILC if it was in EF mount. I agree with LeeJay, these toys should be below $1K at most. Real men use OVFs.




Then I guess real men are going extinct in 10-15 years. 

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Etienne said:


> A lot of pros will pop one of these in the bag as a back up because of its light weight and small size




...and because it uses the same batteries + same speedlites + (with an adaptor) the same lenses as the SLR on their other shoulder.

But I feel those will be early adopter pros. Many pros will hold out for a stouter grip + two cards (if we only get one) + the 5-series control wheel and more spacious button layout around the grip.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ...and because it uses the same batteries + same speedlites + (with an adaptor) the same lenses as the SLR on their other shoulder.
> 
> But I feel those will be early adopter pros. Many pros will hold out for a stouter grip + two cards (if we only get one) + the 5-series control wheel and more spacious button layout around the grip.
> 
> - A




But -6 EV AF (if real, not shackled with a lot of fine print) + truly silent shooting could make this rig a darling for wedding photographers who don't want to pop a flash or make noise during the ceremony or reception.

- A


----------



## miketcool (Sep 1, 2018)

Anyone else hope that the top LCD has a blue backlight like the EOS 3?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

luisbelo said:


> I’m not use to not be immediately disappointed by a Canon rumor. But they can still screw this up. 2x crop on 4K, bad codec, no IBIS; subpar dinamic range and ISO; bad autofocus with EF lenses, battery life...




AF will be as good as DPAF on EF lenses today. Of all the things on your list, that one will likely be a non-issue.

Here's how quickly the AF works with DPAF on an M6:






I have zero concerns there. It may be as laser fast as some higher end L's on an SLR using the optical/AF mirror setup, but that's still awfully quick.

- A


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

luisbelo said:


> I’m not use to not be immediately disappointed by a Canon rumor. But they can still screw this up. 2x crop on 4K, bad codec, no IBIS; subpar dinamic range and ISO; bad autofocus with EF lenses, battery life...



Pray tell, what is its dynamic range, and what is par?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

-pekr- said:


> You can't use new 28-70/2 on your 5DIV? Not nice .....



Just about everything new and neat that EF-M got was eventually made available in EF-S: a pancake, an inexpensive and sharp UWA zoom, a wide 1:1 illuminated macro, etc.

So there's a real chance Canon makes this f/2 zoom in EF someday.

- A


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> But -6 EV AF (if real, not shackled with a lot of fine print) + truly silent shooting could make this rig a darling for wedding photographers who don't want to pop a flash or make noise during the ceremony or reception.
> 
> - A


Color me skeptical, but I just don’t believe there will be useful -6EV AF. That’s what... 1/10 second exposure at f/1.2 ISO 102,400?


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ...and because it uses the same batteries + same speedlites + (with an adaptor) the same lenses as the SLR on their other shoulder.
> 
> But I feel those will be early adopter pros. Many pros will hold out for a stouter grip + two cards (if we only get one) + the 5-series control wheel and more spacious button layout around the grip.
> 
> - A


+ $2k in price.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> Yes, I was thinking that too. I wonder how this would compare, overall, with the new 35mm 1.8 in terms of compactness. While I like the 40, I would like it even more if it were 1.8 ! The macro part doesn't hurt either!




My 35 f/2 IS gets used 10x as often as the 40 f/2.8 STM pancake. Yes, it's bigger, but it's a stop faster, has IS, has ring USM speed, has mechanical manual, is internal focusing, takes common filter size, has a solid/fast hood attachment, etc.

Now, offer an _f/2_ pancake like EF-M has and the debate goes from no-brainer for the 35 IS to a slightly less clear choice. 

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> IMO, there are Fuji's that are close.




_...to you._ Others want a svelte concept car. Some love the orthogonal weaponry precision Leica aesthetic. Others love the 80s mojo of the Olympus rigs.

The point: until one style is clearly the winner, Canon won't dare dabble in subjective worlds. This is not what Canon does.

- A


----------



## Kit. (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Also, a 5D4 resolution sensor dropping into a $2k body may be wishful thinking.


May be. Or maybe in 2 more years this sensor ends up in Rebel-priced cameras (and Fuji would be selling a $2k medium format body).


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Refurb7 said:


> Looks quite beautiful to me.




If you find the Canon SLR design aesthetic beautiful, then yes, this is the cute little baby of that.

I tend to see ergonomics / function / thoughtfulness in Canon's design language rather than some attraction to some sexy piece of kit. So something that looks like it belongs with other Canon gear reassures me the ergonomics were not fouled up with this one. (Does that make any sense?)

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> What purpose would it serve?




Is the EVF really WYSIWYG at all times? The lens needs to use a different aperture to focus than (say) the f/11 you've got your shot composed with, right? 

(Never used a mirrorless rig for more than 5 minutes in a store -- please correct me if I've misunderstood)

- A


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Is the EVF really WYSIWYG at all times? The lens needs to use a different aperture to focus than (say) the f/11 you've got your shot composed with, right?
> 
> (Never used a mirrorless rig for more than 5 minutes in a store -- please correct me if I've misunderstood)
> 
> - A



There is a stop down for focus which occurs with some Sony lenses before the CDAF step. Similarly canon lenses focus wide open for PDAF. Either way it happens momentarily and doesn’t really affect composition.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Yasko said:


> They took the sensor from the 80D and put it into the 200D, so I don‘t see why they shouldn‘t put the 5D mk IV sensor into another FF camera that costs less. Much more cost efficient than producing a whole new sensor.




They could, but many here believe that this is $2k camera, and putting a $3k+ camera's sensor into a $2k price point would have a lot of people blow off the 6D2 (or even the 5D4 itself) in favor of this better sensor. Canon typically doesn't eat itself that way like other companies do, esp. with FF sensors.

There are crafty ways Canon could do put the 5D4 sensor into a cheaper camera, like nerfing some features, leaving key things out, etc. but they also could price it higher to level the demand and protect other lines.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Jim Saunders said:


> 28-70 f/2, quiet, discreet? Sounds like a good start for a wedding camera. Now if the b*gger thing will sync a flash to 1/1000 I might be willing to part with my 200-400 for one of these and a 100-400.
> 
> Jim




Can't really do that without a leaf shutter lens, can you? For most mortals, those are only found in fixed lens cameras and medium format.

Expect a 1/160 - 1/250 sort of sync like most SLRs.

- A


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Isn't that just the back end of the lens?




either way. that silver extension tube between "lens body" and camera looks very weird.


----------



## hmatthes (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Is the EVF really WYSIWYG at all times? The lens needs to use a different aperture to focus than (say) the f/11 you've got your shot composed with, right?
> 
> (Never used a mirrorless rig for more than 5 minutes in a store -- please correct me if I've misunderstood)
> 
> - A


My Leica Q stops down upon focus attainment. Then I might turn lens’ aperature if necessary.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Kit. said:


> May be. Or maybe in 2 more years this sensor ends up in Rebel-priced cameras (and Fuji would be selling a $2k medium format body).




Canon's still at 50% of global ILC units and sensor production prices aren't plummeting precipitously. the idea that Canon needs to go to the mattresses and Sony-up their spec-per-dollar value proposition lacks data to back it up.

I'd love it, too, but it's wishful thinking until Canon actually starts losing share. They will not rethink their gameplan while they are actively curb-stomping their foes in the market right now.

- A


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> either way. that silver extension tube between "lens body" and camera looks very weird.


Shrug, someone thought it looked good to have bare metal rather than finish towards the mount. It’s even more pronounced on the 35 (or maybe just looks so relatively).


----------



## Famateur (Sep 1, 2018)

So. Adam.

I don't want to fuel high hopes just to have them dashed...but...

That sure looks like a second switch disrupting the otherwise smooth profile on the RF 50 F1.2L. What else could it be than an IS switch?

If it truly is a 50MM F1.2L *IS* USM...

Does that change your contentment with the 5DIII?
Do you start crafting a plan to acquire the EOS R?
Do you still wait for the rumored second FF MILC body and choose between it and a possible 5DV?

I've got no interest, personally, in a prime lens (for now), but for your sake, I sure hope that really is an IS switch!


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

fullstop said:


> either way. that silver extension tube between "lens body" and camera looks very weird.




There are _two_ silver tubes I think -- one on the lens and one on the mount. Together, they kinda look like the 'lens tube' at the base of all Sony GM lenses. 

I've riffed on a clever reason Canon may be doing that, but I'm not a lens design person and it's just conjecture. I'd like someone with some better lens design acumen to dissect that for me.

- A


----------



## bhf3737 (Sep 1, 2018)

1Zach1 said:


> The rumors were sub-$2K, so I’m hoping that number holds true.


I think the price point may still be correct because it will be announced togehther with two "unique" lenses (RF 50mm f/1.2L USM and RF 28-70mm f/2L USM which are going to be pricey), therefore:
1) Those enthusiasts on budget, could possibly afford if it is at 2K max price range.
2) Those who want one or both of the unique lenses for work (wedding, etc.) will need to buy the camera, too, because you cannot mount them on DSLRs.
3) Those on GAS will definitely get both camera and lenses.
So at the end of the day, lots of camera and lenses will be sold. Higher price point for the camera itself may alienate the first group only.


----------



## nchoh (Sep 1, 2018)

padam said:


> Yes, or you can customise it to do other things. Probably the same function ring as on the EF R adapter as well.



Samsungs used to have the extra ring as a dial.


----------



## Alino (Sep 1, 2018)

The upper panel show 1/8000 at F/4? ...........................No way !!!!!


----------



## ritholtz (Sep 1, 2018)

TMHKR said:


> Did anyone notice the lack of DoF preview button?


Do we need dof button with live view showing exact picture. Not sure if lens are wide open during focusing as in pdaf.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> They could, but many here believe that this is $2k camera, and putting a $3k+ camera's sensor into a $2k price point would have a lot of people blow off the 6D2 (or even the 5D4 itself) in favor of this better sensor. Canon typically doesn't eat itself that way like other companies do, esp. with FF sensors.


If I were Canon, I would prefer to start testing new approach with releasing an "enthusiast" camera, and then release "pro" and "consumer" versions half a year to a year later.

"Enthusiast" camera is about $2500 MSRP.



ahsanford said:


> There are crafty ways Canon could do put the 5D4 sensor into a cheaper camera, like nerfing some features, leaving key things out, etc. but they also could price it higher to level the demand and protect other lines.


This particular camera seems to be nerfed in its button layout. I hope a bigger body follows.



ahsanford said:


> Canon's still at 50% of global ILC units and sensor production prices aren't plummeting precipitously. the idea that Canon needs to go to the mattresses and Sony-up their spec-per-dollar value proposition lacks data to back it up.


I don't hear new rumors about my G7X III, and it probably means that _non_-ILC market is shrinking faster than expected.


----------



## Famateur (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> If you find the Canon SLR design aesthetic beautiful, then yes, this is the cute little baby of that.
> 
> I tend to see ergonomics / function / thoughtfulness in Canon's design language rather than some attraction to some sexy piece of kit. So something that looks like it belongs with other Canon gear reassures me the ergonomics were not fouled up with this one. (Does that make any sense?)
> 
> - A



Like a carry pistol or a hammer, looks have always been near the bottom of the interest list for me on a camera. That said, the EOS R certainly doesn't look ugly to me, like some have posted.

In fact...I quite like some of the subtle design cues. For example, the way the EVF housing protrudes forward slightly, reminiscent of the pentaprism housing on a DSLR. The Nikon Z is just flat there, looking a little like something was cut off...

+1 on consistency across products that makes it "feel" like it belongs in the Canon stable.


----------



## Famateur (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Canon's still at 50% of global ILC units and sensor production prices aren't plummeting precipitously. the idea that Canon needs to go to the mattresses and Sony-up their spec-per-dollar value proposition lacks data to back it up.
> 
> I'd love it, too, but it's wishful thinking until Canon actually starts losing share. They will not rethink their gameplan while they are actively *curb-stomping* their foes in the market right now.
> 
> - A



Hahaha!!!! So glad I wasn't drinking something when I read *that *-- would've buck-snorted all over my screen. Great imagery for a marketshare discussion...


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 1, 2018)

So...

Before the announcement (well, leak)

80% of people - "If this doesn't have EF mount then I'm not interested!"

After the announcement

80% of people - "This is great!"


----------



## tron (Sep 1, 2018)

Kit. said:


> If I were Canon, I would prefer to start testing new approach with releasing an "enthusiast" camera, and then release "pro" and "consumer" versions half a year to a year later.
> 
> "Enthusiast" camera is about $2500 MSRP.
> 
> ...


You don't hear rumors about your G7X III because my G7X II wants to live more


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Famateur said:


> So. Adam.
> 
> I don't want to fuel high hopes just to have them dashed...but...




I've already answered this 10 pages ago. Go check that out.

- A


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 1, 2018)

So. Thoughts about adaptors.

One of the things a new mount brings is the ability to 100% control what lenses are produced for the system, and even adaptors for autofocus lenses. 

Right now, the EF protocol dates back to the 1980s and even those who haven't officially licenced it can reverse engineer it easily.

Now days it's trivial for a manufacturer to use encrypted communication between the body and the lens that is both hard to crack and very easy to litigate against if people have reversed it. 

If I were Canon I would make ALL RF lenses *and adaptors* require this communication, meaning the EF lenses will only work with the official Canon RF adaptors.


Now, the good news is this won't be a problem for legacy manual focus glass. Those adaptors will work regardless. 

But adaptors for Nikon lenses etc, or third party EF -> R adaptors may be unlikely.


----------



## c.d.embrey (Sep 1, 2018)

How soon until Canon makes a full range of primes? For me, big/bulky zoomz.are a deal breaker.

Is the 4k video amateur 3840×2160 (UHD) or professional 4096 × 2160 (DCI 4K)?

Is there a native 4/3 and square (1x1) crop?

The Leica L-Mount has an inner diameter of 48.8mm and a flange depth of 20.0mm. The Canon R demensions are 54mm with a flange back of 20mm. The Leica M mount is 44mm diameter with a 27.8mm flange. A Canon R to Leica M adapter is possible.


----------



## tron (Sep 1, 2018)

The new R 24-105 L IS has the exact size of the version 1 24-105 f/4L IS.
So it is not small (Rumor has it that mirror removal cannot change physics  ) So the only gain in the kit size is due to the smaller Camera only. Nice but not big deal. Now where is my EF28-70 f/2 L ?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

Kit. said:


> This particular camera seems to be nerfed in its button layout. I hope a bigger body follows.




This is more hitting form factor expectations than nerfing. You don't really nerf a grip. You make a small one for the small camp and a big one for the big camp.

You say 'I miss my bigger body, buttons, wheel, etc.' and others say 'Sweet! Tilty-flippy and they still all the buttons in there.'

- A


----------



## Viggo (Sep 1, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Do we need dof button with live view showing exact picture. Not sure if lens are wide open during focusing as in pdaf.


They frikkin’ better be! 

I was at a loss for words when I saw Nikon stop down before focusing. Absolutely useless


----------



## Famateur (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> I've already answered this 10 pages ago. Go check that out.
> 
> - A



My bad...I had read that post, but must have forgotten the part about the lens not going anywhere, thus no need to jump for the body. Great point.

I think everyone was concluding at the time that the 50 likely didn't have IS (though I could be wrong, as dozens of pages and less sleep than I should've had are blurring it all together), so when I saw those second-button-nubs sticking out, I wondered if the likely reality of IS changed anything. At least you've (likely) got a dream lens to save up for down the road for when you choose your next body...


----------



## ElectroDan (Sep 1, 2018)

Kit. said:


> If I were Canon, I would prefer to start testing new approach with releasing an "enthusiast" camera, and then release "pro" and "consumer" versions half a year to a year later.
> 
> "Enthusiast" camera is about $2500 MSRP.
> 
> Enthusiast Camera at $2500, not in any companies history. Plus it would be way above the current "Enthusiast" market


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

Viggo said:


> They frikkin’ better be!
> 
> I was at a loss for words when I saw Nikon stop down before focusing. Absolutely useless



Why? It doesn’t take the picture stopped down does it? That would be silly.


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 1, 2018)

Bummed that it's not EF mount. But whether I buy one will come down to price and video specs.

$2k price, 4k video with DPAF and FF or APS-C crop? Done.

Crippled 4k (i.e. 2x crop and no DPAF) or a much higher price? Forget it.

As a stills camera this won't do anything my 5Ds can't already do better. As a backup that can take my lenses (with adapter) and give me good 4k it definitely has some appeal. But if it can't offer acceptable 4k I might as well look to a 5D IV as a backup.

Just my humble opinion of course. I don't see everything mirrorless as "magic" and I don't care to stare through an EVF all day. So the EOS R has to offer me some capability I don't already have in a DSLR, and do so at a tempting price point.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> This is more hitting form factor expectations than nerfing. You don't really nerf a grip.


There is a "standard" right hand controls layout for the last 13 years or so. In this camera, it is broken.



ahsanford said:


> You make a small one for the small camp and a big one for the big camp.
> 
> You say 'I miss my bigger body, buttons, wheel, etc.' and others say 'Sweet! Tilty-flippy and they still all the buttons in there.'


I am not sure it would be easy to use these buttons and operate a 70-200 lens at the same time.


----------



## ElectroDan (Sep 1, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> Bummed that it's not EF mount. But whether I buy one will come down to price and video specs.
> 
> $2k price, 4k video with DPAF and FF or APS-C crop? Done.
> 
> ...



I hear that! But, you are probably not the target buyer on this one. This is for people interested in a lighter weight and smaller form factor camera. It took digital cameras about 10 years (from the first round of consumer digital) to overtake film. This year marks the 10 year of Mirrorless and it's making some serious waves if every camera manufacture is getting in at all levels. Especially when the point & shoot market is nearly dead


----------



## ElectroDan (Sep 1, 2018)

My fingers are crossed that Canon's gone dual card slots – Nikon is hearing it for not


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 1, 2018)

ElectroDan said:


> I hear that! But, you are probably not the target buyer on this one. This is for people interested in a lighter weight and smaller form factor camera.



I guess I just see things differently. Shaving a few mm's and ounces doesn't seem to be a big deal. If you want light weight and smaller form factor an EOS M kit is a feather compared to any FF kit.

Understand I'm not saying Canon has done a bad job, though how good this first camera is overall depends on specs we haven't seen yet. It will sell because there's a fascination right now with FF mirrorless and this looks to be a competitive model. I just don't get the mirrorless hype or "magic". For me the camera has to break ground on some feature/price point.


----------



## RobbieHat (Sep 1, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Eh. I don't know. What does "really big print" mean? Sure, there's a market, but there comes a point where the market is so tiny it doesn't count when it comes to ultimate sales. While 30mp is probably far beyond what I need (20x30 max print in my world... which prints fantastically from my lowly 5D mark III), when does a 46 vs 30mp image really start to make a difference? I have no idea. Probably doesn't make any difference at all for the vast majority. Might make a big difference to somebody that crops a lot. So yes, my needs. Problem is that a lot of people who say they need it really don't. It's kind of like buying a car that will do 200mph. We can do that, but then never go above 90mph. So what's the point of the other 110 possible mph? There really is no point except to say that we can if we really want to.
> 
> The high end camera will probably add megapixels, but for my needs? Don't care. There's a point where mp are just a status symbol and not a functional necessity. To be honest, 99.99% of what I do is on the web anyway, so I could get by on far less than what I have. That's probably true of most. Not saying higher mp would turn me off from buying. Not at all. Just that it isn't a big consideration. The bigger consideration for me would be whether the high end camera ergonomics were right. Others have different wants. Wants and needs are two different things.


There are plenty of users (me included) who wIll take all the usable MP we can get. It is the A7riii and D850 and 5ds market with plenty of wildlife and landscape photographers making their bread and butter with them. We print large and post in high resolution and the extra MP help with cropping in wildlife. 

Don’t knock it until you try it.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

RobbieHat said:


> There are plenty of users (me included) who wIll take all the usable MP we can get. It is the A7riii and D850 and 5ds market with plenty of wildlife and landscape photographers making their bread and butter with them. We print large and post in high resolution and the extra MP help with cropping in wildlife.
> 
> Don’t knock it until you try it.





RobbieHat said:


> There are plenty of users (me included) who wIll take all the usable MP we can get. It is the A7riii and D850 and 5ds market with plenty of wildlife and landscape photographers making their bread and butter with them. We print large and post in high resolution and the extra MP help with cropping in wildlife.
> 
> Don’t knock it until you try it.



Robbie, I didn't knock anything.  I specifically said for my needs. Of course there are people who need all they can get. Then there are people who buy it that just want to say they have X megapixels. BIg for me is 20x30. However, I think I wouldn't have any problem outputting at 30x40 (I'll actually be printing that size next week) with what I have. I'm on the portrait end of things and do post high res stuff, but have never had a problem... even when I crop big. Megapixels are not such a big deal to me.


----------



## Alino (Sep 1, 2018)

I thinck the 3rd ring on the lenses is for tweeking the ND filter via the extra pins on the mount (8 on EF to 12 on R)

For the EF lenses this 3rd ring is on the adapter (We can see 1 of the 3 adapters has a ring).


----------



## sdz (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> They could, but many here believe that this is $2k camera, and putting a $3k+ camera's sensor into a $2k price point would have a lot of people blow off the 6D2 (or even the 5D4 itself) in favor of this better sensor. Canon typically doesn't eat itself that way like other companies do, esp. with FF sensors.
> 
> There are crafty ways Canon could do put the 5D4 sensor into a cheaper camera, like nerfing some features, leaving key things out, etc. but they also could price it higher to level the demand and protect other lines.
> 
> - A




Canon Chairman and CEO:



> Our primary management goal this year is to raise our antennas high toward cutting-edge technology. It is on this point where we lag behind other companies. We will open up a research and development center in the U.S.'s Silicon Valley, where we will actively adopt new technology.



https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Co...side-the-camera-box-Canon-chief-argues?page=1

Canon's Imaging CEO:



> For those users who have the interchangeable-lens DSLRs, the purchasing cycle, to start with, was not very short, so they would use the same camera for several years. So this would also cover your next question as well. <laughter> In terms of the camera model change cycle, I think that would differ based on the characteristics of each camera. So in terms of our high-end cameras, we will do our model change when we are able to embed the functionality and performance that we are aiming for. For entry level models, of course we will do the model change when we come out with new features or new performance. But at the same time, for the entry level models there is a lot of competition, and so we also have to work on cost reductions. Once we are able to do these cost reductions, that would be another opportunity for model change.



https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...-m-enthusiasts-more-aps-c-lenses-new-printers

My take: If the EOS R will become a new platform for Canon and if Canon has achieved cost savings in its sensor production and if it has concluded that mirrorless cameras will become the predominant camera type, then the the EOS R will compare to, say, the 5D IV as a progressing technology compares to a declining technology. The new floor for Canon's high-end cameras may thus have a 30 MP sensor while also having a price meant for the 6D market segment. Canon intended to compete on price and technology.

I could not find the quote where a Canon executive stated the the Canon would no longer protect it's legacy product lines. Keeping that in mind, a 30 MP EOS R priced at $1,900 is plausible.


----------



## ElectroDan (Sep 1, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> I guess I just see things differently. Shaving a few mm's and ounces doesn't seem to be a big deal. If you want light weight and smaller form factor an EOS M kit is a feather compared to any FF kit.
> 
> Understand I'm not saying Canon has done a bad job, though how good this first camera is overall depends on specs we haven't seen yet. It will sell because there's a fascination right now with FF mirrorless and this looks to be a competitive model. I just don't get the mirrorless hype or "magic". For me the camera has to break ground on some feature/price point.


Canon is high on the customer satisfaction scale as they treat there customers very well compaired to others (not treating at all). I don't think they need groundbreaking, just a solid entry. You should try looking through an EVF for a day, you might like it. I have been all Mrrorless for 2+ years and have considered buying a Canon 6Dii or 5D but can't push myself to using a OVF again


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> _...to you._ Others want a svelte concept car. Some love the orthogonal weaponry precision Leica aesthetic. Others love the 80s mojo of the Olympus rigs.
> 
> The point: until one style is clearly the winner, Canon won't dare dabble in subjective worlds. This is not what Canon does.
> 
> - A



Correct. IMO stands for "in MY opinion". Similar statement as "to me".


----------



## infared (Sep 1, 2018)

So...perhaps there is another mirrorless body being released that will mount EF lenses directly with full capability? Adapters are usually terrible. Slow autofocus etc. I am happy with the gear that I own...this is not rockin my world!


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> My 35 f/2 IS gets used 10x as often as the 40 f/2.8 STM pancake. Yes, it's bigger, but it's a stop faster, has IS, has ring USM speed, has mechanical manual, is internal focusing, takes common filter size, has a solid/fast hood attachment, etc.
> 
> Now, offer an _f/2_ pancake like EF-M has and the debate goes from no-brainer for the 35 IS to a slightly less clear choice.
> 
> - A



Indeed, your 35 f/2 is a great lens. I use the 40 because of its size and my personal travel habits and needs...and it was $100. If it weren't for those factors, I would want the 35 f/2. 

I'm wondering how the "R" will work out with the 35 1.8 in terms of depth. Might be a great option...for me.


----------



## osendal (Sep 1, 2018)

This thread is getting out of hand, so I guess someone has done this before. But out of curiousity I had to do a really quick test of the lenses on the body for size comparison. And as someone already did (can't remember who, sorry!) I adjusted the hot shoe to be the same size.

I like the EOS R size better now. Interestingly the 50mm and 24-105 looks the same size. The perfect pair IMO. And of course the 28-70 is huge! What an amazing lens.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 1, 2018)

sdz said:


> I could not find the quote where a Canon executive stated the the Canon would no longer protect it's legacy product lines.


Of course you can't, because it doesn't exist. Apparently your personal bias is clouding your memory. A Canon exec did discuss actively pursuing the MILC market even if there is some cannibalization of DSLRs. But any Canon exec who referred to the DSLR segment – which comprises the majority of the ILC market and the majority of Canon's imaging revenue – as 'legacy product lines' would likely be summarily fired, or at best never again permitted to publicly speak on the company's behalf.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

sdz said:


> I could not find the quote where a Canon executive stated the the Canon would no longer protect it's legacy product lines. Keeping that in mind, a 30 MP EOS R priced at $1,900 is plausible.




..._if it doesn't match the 5D4 spec for spec_, sure. But if it does, it's simply not a $1900 camera. Canon doesn't launch things that take the legs out of higher priced things in a clear-cut way. There are featured based exceptions: DPAF first in the 70D while the 7D line didn't have it, 4K in M50 while the M5/M6 don't have it, sure -- that's just a feature or two. But to clone the capabilities of a rig Canon currently sells for $3100 and sell it for $1900 simply isn't going to happen.

Consider: the Nikon Z7 is a D850 'clone' at a really superficial level... _and they are asking for D850 money for it._ Canon would do the same if they cloned the 5D4 into mirrorless.

I also think that we're reading way too much into a sealed 30 MP sensor body into meaning that it's a mirrorless 5D4. We simply don't know that yet.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> Correct. IMO stands for "in MY opinion". Similar statement as "to me".




Forgive me. 100% missed that. My bad.

- A


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

All the "I'm jumping ship" talk turns out to be Sony execs jumping around wondering where they can find jobs once Canon fires the second salvo. Loving that "smaller and lighter" 28-70 f/2L. Seriously loving it. Can't wait for the reviews.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

infared said:


> So...perhaps there is another mirrorless body being released that will mount EF lenses directly with full capability? Adapters are usually terrible. Slow autofocus etc. I am happy with the gear that I own...this is not rockin my world!




Tell me that this is slow. 






Because I expect this level of performance with EOS R.

- A


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Tell me that this is slow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I have no idea how a native adapter could slow things down. Maybe the reference is to EF glass on metabones on Sony?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> All the "I'm jumping ship" talk turns out to be Sony execs jumping around wondering where they can find jobs once Canon fires the second salvo. Loving that "smaller and lighter" 28-70 f/2L. Seriously loving it. Can't wait for the reviews.




There's more to it than fast lenses, though.

If they price it at $2999 and it's a single slot without IBIS, the YAPODFC camp will come back with a vengeance.

I'm not ready to call this rig a categorical win just yet. I need to see more.

- A


----------



## psolberg (Sep 1, 2018)

RobbieHat said:


> There are plenty of users (me included) who wIll take all the usable MP we can get. It is the A7riii and D850 and 5ds market with plenty of wildlife and landscape photographers making their bread and butter with them. We print large and post in high resolution and the extra MP help with cropping in wildlife.
> 
> Don’t knock it until you try it.


agreed. There are benefits to oversampling from higher MPs, like 70-100 to say, something like 30 or 20. I don't doubt for a moment Sony, and hence Nikon will push way past 50MP on the next bump up. That's where all companies are going and there are benefits to be had for landcape folks beyond just sheer "printing big". If anybody follows the reviews of DIGLLOYD he has done many articles on oversampling, bayer pattern, comparisons with the grayscale Leica that launched a few years ago vs bayered B&W. some are behind a paywall but there were good reads for anybody who questions why the MP race will continue.


----------



## admiralburns (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Forgive me. 100% missed that. My bad.
> 
> - A



No prob sir!


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I have no idea how a native adapter could slow things down. Maybe the reference is to EF glass on metabones on Sony?




If you are going to pick on a [first party body] to [first party adaptor] to [first party lens], see if it's out of plane mechanically I guess. But to knock AF speed/consistency/accuracy vs. DPAF on a modern SLR is nonsense.

- A


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 1, 2018)

ElectroDan said:


> You should try looking through an EVF for a day, you might like it.



I have. And I don't. I thought the saving grace was exposure preview. But now that I have the 5Ds...the meter is so freaking reliable that exposure preview seems a minor benefit at best.


----------



## sdz (Sep 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Of course you can't, because it doesn't exist. Apparently your personal bias is clouding your memory. A Canon exec did discuss actively pursuing the MILC market even if there is some cannibalization of DSLRs. But any Canon exec who referred to the DSLR segment – which comprises the majority of the ILC market and the majority of Canon's imaging revenue – as 'legacy product lines' would likely be summarily fired, or at best never again permitted to publicly speak on the company's behalf.


 
What bias are you referring to?

By the way, a company does not defend product lines when it canninalizes them.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> There's more to it than fast lenses, though.
> 
> If they price it at $2999 and it's a single slot without IBIS, the YAPODFC camp will come back with a vengeance.
> 
> ...


Yes, but I was referring to the bodies as far as that goes (possible -6 ev on this one?). Just got lots of love for big heavy lenses. Anyway, I'm getting a little lost here. Hard to keep up.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 1, 2018)

Alino said:


> I thinck the 3rd ring on the lenses is for tweeking the ND filter via the extra pins on the mount (8 on EF to 12 on R)
> 
> For the EF lenses this 3rd ring is on the adapter (We can see 1 of the 3 adapters has a ring).


is that ring not to rotate the polarizer instead?


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> If you are going to pick on a [first party body] to [first party adaptor] to [first party lens], see if it's out of plane mechanically I guess. But to knock AF speed/consistency/accuracy vs. DPAF on a modern SLR is nonsense.
> 
> - A



Yup. It would simply be a 12mm(?) extension tube with electrical pass thru connections. Electrons travel at the speed of light... well, close enough.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

psolberg said:


> is that ring not to rotate the polarizer instead?



That would be nice! No hood interference!


----------



## ritholtz (Sep 1, 2018)

Viggo said:


> They frikkin’ better be!
> 
> I was at a loss for words when I saw Nikon stop down before focusing. Absolutely useless


Sony does the same thing, I think. Stops down the lens to user set aperture while focusing. Isn't it how mirror less / live view work? How does canon M shows live view image? Does it show with lens wide open. That is not What you get is what you see.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Electrons travel at the speed of light... well, close enough.



Not even remotely!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity

In a lens adapter it’s highly unlikely to make a noteworthy difference, but for the record board designers go to great lengths (pun intended) to match trace lengths for differential signals. That’s what’s happening when you see stuff like this.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 1, 2018)

Viggo said:


> They frikkin’ better be!
> 
> I was at a loss for words when I saw Nikon stop down before focusing. Absolutely useless


not sure what you mean. In the video review (I think it was dpr's) it was mentioned the camera, like others before it, will stop down as a result of you closing the iris up to a certain floor value (in EVF mode anyway). This is the so called "what you see is what you get" EFV behavior that seems popular with the crowds today as it allows you to preview the exposure and DOF. So it isn't stopping down to focus as much as it is stopping down on your command up to a certain point before it will not continue to do so. After that threshold is crossed, it acts like typical DSLRs where it will close the iris further during exposure but return to that floor. It does this off course to allow more light into the sensor for AF. I'm not sure if the behavior is the same in Live View vs EVF. What it doesn't do, at least not that I'm aware of baring a setting not shown, is act like a DSLR where the iris is always wide open even in EVF mode. While that does allow more light for AF, it also kills the WYSIWYG aspect of EVFs that make them so loved among a pretty big crowd. For me, I'm fairly neutral on this. I suppose options are always better than being forced either way however. 

Anyway I have not handled one so just going by what I've seen on these "reviews". So I could be wrong here.


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> That would be nice! No hood interference!




Sure, but then you'd need *two* filters. The CPL in the adaptor and a clear/UV on the front element of the EF lens to provide weather sealing. 

- A


----------



## sdz (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> ..._if it doesn't match the 5D4 spec for spec_, sure. But if it does, it's simply not a $1900 camera. Canon doesn't launch things that take the legs out of higher priced things in a clear-cut way. There are featured based exceptions: DPAF first in the 70D while the 7D line didn't have it, 4K in M50 while the M5/M6 don't have it, sure -- that's just a feature or two. But to clone the capabilities of a rig Canon currently sells for $3100 and sell it for $1900 simply isn't going to happen.
> 
> Consider: the Nikon Z7 is a D850 'clone' at a really superficial level... _and they are asking for D850 money for it._ Canon would do the same if they cloned the 5D4 into mirrorless.
> 
> ...



I suspect sensor size is not important in this instance. I see the EOS R and the EOS xxD as two separate but unequal platforms. The R platform points to the indefinite future. The xxD platform is becoming a legacy product line. Once, just recently, a FF camera that had a 30 MP sensor would sit near the top of the Canon FF product line. But, a new platform, need not conform to the the xxD's sensor/price relationship. I have a M50, and that camera has a lot of bells and whistles along with a 24 MP sensor. I paid $575 for a USA verson. Do 6 MP and true 4K cost $2,000?


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 1, 2018)

sdz said:


> Do 6 MP and true 4K cost $2,000?




No, of course not, but Canon's glad to charge you that much more for it. They've been doing stuff like that forever.

I'm not saying the EOS R is a $3,099 camera because that's the price of the 5D4. But it's surely not a $2k camera unless Canon leaves a lot of 5D4-level features out. They will not risk undermining the 5D4 unless (and this is a total guess) they have great market research saying that the average EOS R buyer will 1-2 really high end lenses.

- A


----------



## JBSF (Sep 1, 2018)

sdz said:


> Canon Chairman and CEO:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There may be some wishful thinking involved (I would like to see a price under $2K), but these are my thoughts also. Canon has to know that DSLR sales will decline whether they go into FF MILC both feet first or not. So why not do it, and at the same time establish that new floor? They would not only sell a huge number of this camera, but would create a painful new reality for the competition. Consumers love specs, and 30 MP looks far more attractive than 26.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 1, 2018)

sdz said:


> What bias are you referring to?
> 
> By the way, a company does not defend product lines when it canninalizes them.


Your reference to 'legacy product lines' in your misquote of a Canon statement. But maybe I'm wrong…feel free to show me a quote from Canon where they refer to product lines that comprise the majority of their imaging revenue as 'legacy'. .


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 1, 2018)

Alino said:


> I thinck the 3rd ring on the lenses is for tweeking the ND filter via the extra pins on the mount (8 on EF to 12 on R)
> 
> For the EF lenses this 3rd ring is on the adapter (We can see 1 of the 3 adapters has a ring).


I would guess it is for one of the exposure factors. Av, T, or ISO with a second factor controlled by the top body wheel, and the third fatctor floating with auto exposure. Could also be a programmable factor.


----------



## mpb001 (Sep 1, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> I am a bit disappointed about a RF mount and not native EF mount.
> I do hope that a higher end EOS mirrorless will maintain native EF mount.
> I that is not the case, that will be my third mount sidetrack since my Canon AE1P with FD mount......


I have a feeling that with these new L lenses, especially the 28-70 f2, that there may be gradual professional shift to RF lenses. It won't be over night, but over time. The Canon cameras with EF mounts will probably be phased out over a long period, until the evolution of their professional FF mirrorless line is fully developed . That's my guess.


----------



## sdz (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> No, of course not, but Canon's glad to charge you that much more for it. They've been doing stuff like that forever.
> 
> I'm not saying the EOS R is a $3,099 camera because that's the price of the 5D4. But it's surely not a $2k camera unless Canon leaves a lot of 5D4-level features out. They will not risk undermining the 5D4 unless (and this is a total guess) they have great market research saying that the average EOS R buyer will 1-2 really high end lenses.
> 
> - A



I suspect Canon wants to defend it's market position more than it want's to defend the 6D II and the 5D IV. A strong move into the mirrorless market would achieve that. The R cameras seem poised to replace the 6D and 5D lines. Why would Canon have two cameras that directly compete with two of its other cameras? That's uneconomic. That could double Canon's R & D costs while sales remain flat after the product launch.

We shall see what Canon is doing soon enough.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 1, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Not even remotely!
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity
> 
> ...



Yeah, I know. I worked 30+ years in the PCB industry where we made backplanes and multilayered boards (At that time, up to 70+ layers). Still, close enough for our purposes. It's a straight pass through. Let's not get too literal.


----------



## Tompie913 (Sep 1, 2018)

I'm a Nikon shooter, but I am really interested in this. If it does indeed cost $1900, with 30MP that is very promising. Of course resolution isn't everything, but if it has say the high ISO performance of the Z6 (and the ISO 40000 displayed in the pic is promising) and even does 8-9 FPS I might end up with this over the Z6. Especially since there will inevitably be several F-mount adapters (that will probably work as well as and cost less than Nikon's).

Let's not understate how significant a time this is for the Nikon-Canon duopoly. Both Nikon and Canon are moving to a new mount, and adapters will be available for each company's bodies for either company's legacy lenses. Suddenly, every Nikon and Canon shooter is a free agent. Neither company has captivity over its existing customer base anymore - so rather than coast along by their legacy customers, they need to actually make their new mirrorless cameras stand on their own merits.

So here's a hypothetical as to what I think Canon's strategy _could_ be. Canon, seeing that we are at a crossroads of technology not seen since the digital transition, has decided that it is going to wait for Nikon and Sony to show their hands. Then it simply goes down the speclist and one-ups both of its rivals, at a lower cost to boot. Nikon and Sony give you a 24-70 kit lens? Have a 24-105. They have 24MP? Here's 30. They want $2000? We'll charge you $1900. Profits be damned, Canon knows that in this critical moment it needs to win people over to its new system to ensure their future for decades to come. It's the razor-and-blades model, except it's body-and-lenses.

That admittedly seems a little far-fetched in a world where you would expect a product to be finalized months before its announcement, but maybe Canon waited until just now to finalize the design and this was one of several prototypes they prepared. These may not ship until next year after all. But I guess we'll see in a few days. I've already pre-ordered the Z6, but Canon has definitely piqued my interest.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 1, 2018)

c.d.embrey said:


> How soon until Canon makes a full range of primes? For me, big/bulky zoomz.are a deal breaker.
> 
> Is the 4k video amateur 3840×2160 (UHD) or professional 4096 × 2160 (DCI 4K)?
> 
> ...



It will take many years to build a set of primes comparable to today's given they are not going to solely focus on primes or zooms but a mix of both, hence gaps will be common, pervasive and similar to how sony started a few years ago. Interestingly, nikon seems more focused on primes first, but once you look at their roadmap, you see that next year they will also go mixed with the start of the "bread and butter" trio, 24-70, 70-200, both at f/2.8 and what looks to be a landscape lens lightweight, 14-30 f/4. In 2020 Nikon only spoils 3 lenses, one of which completes the 2.8 zoom trio (14-24 f2.8 refresh!!!) and keeps 3 secret only showing the slots for anybody to guess, but again we see what appears to be a mix. After that, the rest of the 8 slots all secret. Nikon had 4 mirrorless patents for primes, two of which are now "revealed": the 58 f/0.95 and the 50 f/1.2. The ones not "revealed" yet but for which there is a patent is the 36mm f1.2 and the 52 f/0.9mm. Some think the later is the NOCT but I don't buy that because in the lens designer interview, the Nikon design team was quite clear f/0.95 was not their end goal and hinted they'd go further still. The patent only supports that, and it could very well be lenses that fit one of those "secret" slots in their presentation.

off course I'd take any of these things with a grain of salt because they can always decide to swap things around due to technical, manufacturing, market/opportunity forces, or just because they feel they must.


----------



## Sultanen (Sep 1, 2018)

Until this leak I was aiming to sell my one of my 7d mk1 and My 400 F5.6 to buy a 7d mk2 but now I don't know. Would you go for 7d mk2 or EOS R paired with a 100-400 IS II(maby with 1.4TC)? I mainly shoot birds and therefore do some heavy croping. I was waiting for an announcement for 7d mk3 but that does not seem to be anything that will arrive any time soon..


----------



## sdz (Sep 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Your reference to 'legacy product lines' in your misquote of a Canon statement. But maybe I'm wrong…feel free to show me a quote from Canon where they refer to product lines that comprise the majority of their imaging revenue as 'legacy'. .


What did I misqoute?

Canon's willingness to sacrifice current product lines, by cananabalizing features and price points, tells us everything we need to know about the DSLR: It's fated to die a slow death. This view does not express bias on my part. It's just a conjecture based on my appraisal of a reality that remains unclear. Having a bias entails the presence of a prejudice that disposes me to adopt certain positions. I don't much care if mirrorless displaces mirrors. But I also do not care if mirrors remain dominate. I'm trying to make sense of reality. Nothing more.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 1, 2018)

ritholtz said:


> Sony does the same thing, I think. Stops down the lens to user set aperture while focusing. Isn't it how mirror less / live view work? How does canon M shows live view image? Does it show with lens wide open. That is not What you get is what you see.


By stopping down to the exposure aperture for the live view or EVF image, any focus breathing or front/back focus is eliminated. Also, you get to see the actual DOF.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 1, 2018)

Sultanen said:


> I mainly shoot birds


I would wait until its autofocus is tested and proved capable of shooting birds in flight.


----------



## sdz (Sep 1, 2018)

JBSF said:


> There may be some wishful thinking involved (I would like to see a price under $2K), but these are my thoughts also. Canon has to know that DSLR sales will decline whether they go into FF MILC both feet first or not. So why not do it, and at the same time establish that new floor? They would not only sell a huge number of this camera, but would create a painful new reality for the competition. Consumers love specs, and 30 MP looks far more attractive than 26.



This.


----------



## BeenThere (Sep 1, 2018)

mpb001 said:


> I have a feeling that with these new L lenses, especially the 28-70 f2, that there may be gradual professional shift to RF lenses. It won't be over night, but over time. The Canon cameras with EF mounts will probably be phased out over a long period, until the evolution of their professional FF mirrorless line is fully developed . That's my guess.


My guess is that Canon will let it play out and see where the market goes.


----------



## BillB (Sep 1, 2018)

sdz said:


> I suspect Canon wants to defend it's market position more than it want's to defend the 6D II and the 5D IV. A strong move into the mirrorless market would achieve that. The R cameras seem poised to replace the 6D and 5D lines. Why would Canon have two cameras that directly compete with two of its other cameras? That's uneconomic. That could double Canon's R & D costs while sales remain flat after the product launch.
> 
> We shall see what Canon is doing soon enough.



One part of the puzzle is how DSLRs and mirrorless will fit together in Canon's overall FF camera line. The 6DII could stay as the low cost camera, and a single 5D high megapixel DSLR might replace the 5DIV and the 5DS. That would seem to leave room for several mirrorless cameras, especially if video is emphasized.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 1, 2018)

sdz said:


> I suspect Canon wants to defend it's market position more than it want's to defend the 6D II and the 5D IV. A strong move into the mirrorless market would achieve that. The R cameras seem poised to replace the 6D and 5D lines. Why would Canon have two cameras that directly compete with two of its other cameras? That's uneconomic. That could double Canon's R & D costs while sales remain flat after the product launch.


Thanks, I knew there was a perfectly logical explanation for why Canon discontinued development of APS-C DSLRs after the launch and commercial success of the EOS M line. I'm just sure they'll do that same thing after the launch of the EOS R. 

Except, you know, they didn't...and won't.


----------



## TAF (Sep 1, 2018)

Maybe I missed it, but what sort of shutter does it have?


----------



## Kit. (Sep 1, 2018)

BillB said:


> One part of the puzzle is how DSLRs and mirrorless will fit together in Canon's overall FF camera line. The 6DII could stay as the low cost camera, and a single 5D high megapixel DSLR might replace the 5DIV and the 5DS. That would seem to leave room for several mirrorless cameras, especially if video is emphasized.


I could see it as Rj < 6D < R < 5D < Rs < 1D


----------



## JBSF (Sep 1, 2018)

Sultanen said:


> Until this leak I was aiming to sell my one of my 7d mk1 and My 400 F5.6 to buy a 7d mk2 but now I don't know. Would you go for 7d mk2 or EOS R paired with a 100-400 IS II(maby with 1.4TC)? I mainly shoot birds and therefore do some heavy croping. I was waiting for an announcement for 7d mk3 but that does not seem to be anything that will arrive any time soon..



That’s a tough call, and I’m in the same boat. I use 7D Mark 2 with 100-400 Mark 2. I would want a FF 50 MP body so that I could crop to the dimensions of APS-C and have the same approximate resolution. So I don’t know if I wait for 7D Mark 3, or for the rumored high-megapixel FF MILC. To me, one of the greatest advantages of mirrorless is that it negates the need for AFMA, which I think would be especially helpful with lenses that have long zoom ranges.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 1, 2018)

sdz said:


> What did I misqoute?
> 
> Canon's willingness to sacrifice current product lines, by cananabalizing features and price points, tells us everything we need to know about the DSLR: It's fated to die a slow death. This view does not express bias on my part. It's just a conjecture based on my appraisal of a reality that remains unclear. Having a bias entails the presence of a prejudice that disposes me to adopt certain positions. I don't much care if mirrorless displaces mirrors. But I also do not care if mirrors remain dominate. I'm trying to make sense of reality. Nothing more.


You've adopted the position that DSLRs are 'legacy', both in misquoting Canon and in your suggestion that Canon will drop 5- and 6-series line development in favor of the EOS R (in spite of manifest evidence to the contrary for APS-C lines). 

It appears that you're either unable to understand simple statements or being intentionally obtuse. Either way, further discussion on the matter of your bias is pointless.


----------



## BillB (Sep 1, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Sure, but then you'd need *two* filters. The CPL in the adaptor and a clear/UV on the front element of the EF lens to provide weather sealing.
> 
> - A


Sure, but one filter in the adapter will work with any lens you put on it, and you could just leave a clear filter on the front of each lens.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Sep 1, 2018)

EV -6 low brightness autofocus + the new 50m f/1.2! Looks a low light beast, so great. I'd add to dust-proof, drip-proof: hopefully drool-proof!


----------



## Sultanen (Sep 1, 2018)

JBSF said:


> That’s a tough call, and I’m in the same boat. I use 7D Mark 2 with 100-400 Mark 2. I would want a FF 50 MP body so that I could crop to the dimensions of APS-C and have the same approximate resolution. So I don’t know if I wait for 7D Mark 3, or for the rumored high-megapixel FF MILC. To me, one of the greatest advantages of mirrorless is that it negates the need for AFMA, which I think would be especially helpful with lenses that have long zoom ranges.


Yea, for me I don't care much for a FF camera but it on the other hand it would be nice to get the flexibility to use it for other things than shooting small birds. It semes that I'm one of very few that would have been over the moon if this was a 30MP APS-C sensor 

I think there will be a "pro" high resolution version of this camera like the Z7 for Nikon but it will probably fetch a pro price as well...

AFMA would be great to get rid of, also to be able to get that high ISO performance would be awesome. At the moment on my 7D ISO1600 is mainly unusable


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> dust-proof, drip-proof: hopefully drool-proof!



LOL


----------



## Sultanen (Sep 1, 2018)

Kit. said:


> I would wait until its autofocus is tested and proved capable of shooting birds in flight.


Yea, your right! I would probably not do a pre order in any case to let others find out those issues if they exist!


----------



## herion (Sep 1, 2018)

Tompie913 said:


> I'm a Nikon shooter, but I am really interested in this. If it does indeed cost $1900, with 30MP that is very promising. Of course resolution isn't everything, but if it has say the high ISO performance of the Z6 (and the ISO 40000 displayed in the pic is promising) and even does 8-9 FPS I might end up with this over the Z6. Especially since there will inevitably be several F-mount adapters (that will probably work as well as and cost less than Nikon's).
> 
> Let's not understate how significant a time this is for the Nikon-Canon duopoly. Both Nikon and Canon are moving to a new mount, and adapters will be available for each company's bodies for either company's legacy lenses. Suddenly, every Nikon and Canon shooter is a free agent. Neither company has captivity over its existing customer base anymore - so rather than coast along by their legacy customers, they need to actually make their new mirrorless cameras stand on their own merits.
> 
> ...



Sort of like the razor mentality - "Give away the handle for below cost because you're making money on the blades."


----------



## fullstop (Sep 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> ... Canon discontinued development of APS-C DSLRs after the launch and commercial success of the EOS M line ...


 ... no not yet. ;-)

M5/M6 and even more so EOS M50 are fairly recent only. M50 really marks the first "decent, compact and affordable" M camera. I think it has already created quite a dent in Rebel, xxD and EF-S sales. Those product lines will "go legacy"  first ... and it may be sooner than you/some here think. 

But let's see what EOS M5 II and maybe M6 II have to offer and how capable and inexpensive the next entry level body - M100 successor - will be. Might already put an end to the "Rebel Slap" ... no more SL-3, no 90D, no 78D. Almost certainly still a 7D III, but i would not bet money on ever seeing a 7D Mk. IV.


----------



## Fwiler (Sep 1, 2018)

KM6767 said:
Do not understand the point of this camera, except the size!



Kit. said:


> Autofocus at -6 EV.



And to shoot silently, and possibly much higher end video.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 1, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Why? It doesn’t take the picture stopped down does it? That would be silly.


If you choose f8 as your shooting aperture, it will stop down when you choose. So now you have to AF at f8,
Why would anyone ever design a camera that way?


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

Fwiler said:


> KM6767 said:
> Do not understand the point of this camera... except “Autofocus at -6 EV”



I don’t understand the point of Autofocus at -6 EV.


----------



## Rockskipper (Sep 1, 2018)

Sultanen said:


> Until this leak I was aiming to sell my one of my 7d mk1 and My 400 F5.6 to buy a 7d mk2 but now I don't know. Would you go for 7d mk2 or EOS R paired with a 100-400 IS II(maby with 1.4TC)? I mainly shoot birds and therefore do some heavy croping. I was waiting for an announcement for 7d mk3 but that does not seem to be anything that will arrive any time soon..


Unless this new mirrorless is way way better in the focus dept. than the M5, the focusing capabilities won't be able to touch your 7D. I've been very disappointed with the way my M5 captures wildlife on the move (or doesn't, is more like it). My 7DM2 is far superior. With my 100-400IS II, I can catch anything (almost).


----------



## Fwiler (Sep 1, 2018)

sanj said:


> Honest curiosity: What does this have that the competition does not? In my aesthetic sense, this body is ugly.


Sweet lenses!


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 1, 2018)

Aussie shooter said:


> Possibly. First thing I turned off on the 7d2 and it has not been on since. Major battery drain



True for 7d2, but the 5d4 power saving mode for god is actually effective. Not an issue anymore.


----------



## jd7 (Sep 1, 2018)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Meh. I was only interested in an MILC if it was in EF mount. I agree with LeeJay, these toys should be below $1K at most. Real men use OVFs.





ahsanford said:


> Then I guess real men are going extinct in 10-15 years.
> 
> - A


Where's the "boo" button?!!


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

Viggo said:


> If you choose f8 as your shooting aperture, it will stop down when you choose. So now you have to AF at f8,
> Why would anyone ever design a camera that way?



To alleviate focus shift, perhaps. I don’t know anything about the Nikon z system, so just a guess.


----------



## jeanluc (Sep 1, 2018)

Anything about an AA filter?


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 1, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> To alleviate focus shift, perhaps. I don’t know anything about the Nikon z system, so just a guess.



It does seem counterintuitive. If you are shooting at f/8 and you're focusing on the eyes you still would want the camera to ensure the eyes were in the center of the f/8 focus range (in general) which is what you get when it focuses as the widest aperture giving the narrowest depth of field. If you're auto focusing at f/8 then there's a good chance the center of the focus range will be randomly somewhere within the wider range.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

https://photographylife.com/what-is-focus-shift


----------



## MartinF. (Sep 1, 2018)

Sultanen said:


> Until this leak I was aiming to sell my one of my 7d mk1 and My 400 F5.6 to buy a 7d mk2 but now I don't know. Would you go for 7d mk2 or EOS R paired with a 100-400 IS II(maby with 1.4TC)? I mainly shoot birds and therefore do some heavy croping. I was waiting for an announcement for 7d mk3 but that does not seem to be anything that will arrive any time soon..





Sultanen said:


> Until this leak I was aiming to sell my one of my 7d mk1 and My 400 F5.6 to buy a 7d mk2 but now I don't know. Would you go for 7d mk2 or EOS R paired with a 100-400 IS II(maby with 1.4TC)? I mainly shoot birds and therefore do some heavy croping. I was waiting for an announcement for 7d mk3 but that does not seem to be anything that will arrive any time soon..



My quess is FF mirrorless first will take out APS-C DSLRs and then Entrylevel FF as 6D. Then later - maybe 10 years down the road there will ony be one FF DSLR in lineup - and the rest will be mirrorless.
So I would hold my horses on the 7Dmk2 and wait another half year.
For my self: I will put my wishes for a 24-70 f/2.8 mkII L and a 135L on hold until I have learned more on Canons future plans for the EF mount.
(disclamer: I am not a ML fanboy. I love my 6D, and my EF lenses, and I at this point a bit frustrated to see, that EF lenses are not natively mounted on the EOS R)


----------



## sdz (Sep 1, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Thanks, I knew there was a perfectly logical explanation for why Canon discontinued development of APS-C DSLRs after the launch and commercial success of the EOS M line. I'm just sure they'll do that same thing after the launch of the EOS R.
> 
> Except, you know, they didn't...and won't.



Check back in 10 to 15 years when KEH has these cameras for sale at a $50 price and when new mirrored cameras are nowhere on sale.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 1, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I don’t understand the point of Autofocus at -6 EV.


If I understand correctly, this is not the value of the scene luminance (in ISO 100 EV units), but the value of autofocus sensor illuminance. Which means that if you use a slower lens or a teleconverter, the ability to autofocus in the low light degrades by the corresponding amount of stops.

So, if you want to autofocus at 400/5.6 with TC 2x in twilight, you need a very sensitive AF sensor.


----------



## mikedidi46 (Sep 1, 2018)

admiralburns said:


> If the price is still sub 2k (or thereabouts) as rumored, I'm buying one. That simple.


Add me to that list, this is why I am holding off doing any upgrades until I see this live.


----------



## mppix (Sep 1, 2018)

MartinF. said:


> My quess is FF mirrorless first will take out APS-C DSLRs and then Entrylevel FF as 6D. Then later - maybe 10 years down the road there will ony be one FF DSLR in lineup - and the rest will be mirrorless.
> So I would hold my horses on the 7Dmk2 and wait another half year.
> For my self: I will put my wishes for a 24-70 f/2.8 mkII L and a 135L on hold until I have learned more on Canons future plans for the EF mount.
> (disclamer: I am not a ML fanboy. I love my 6D, and my EF lenses, and I at this point a bit frustrated to see, that EF lenses are not natively mounted on the EOS R)


Same, i was looking for some ef lens purcase(s) but was holding off until we knew about Canons ML plans. I guess I'll keep holding off for now.
Canon offers conversion of some (expensive) lenses fom EF to PL. Maybe we'll see also EF to RF conversion option. While there is no doubt this will be a sucessful Camera system, they could have handled this one better. Specifically, they have now 4 lens classes, where the crop ones are inherently neglected. on the other two, my guess is they have to put the horsepower behind RF to be competitive with Sony and EF will see only marginal updates.

Once somebody said that "Canon fails every time when they have the chance to completely take over the market". Here we go.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 1, 2018)

Kit. said:


> If I understand correctly, this is not the value of the scene luminance (in ISO 100 EV units), but the value of autofocus sensor illuminance. Which means that if you use a slower lens or a teleconverter, the ability to autofocus in the low light degrades by the corresponding amount of stops.
> 
> So, if you want to autofocus at 400/5.6 with TC 2x in twilight, you need a very sensitive AF sensor.


You’re probably right about it being sensor illuminance.


----------



## stg_george (Sep 2, 2018)

Only 1080p at 60fps ?
No 120fps ?

That's a big NO. 

Waiting for the next Sony ,probably a7000/6700 will be anounced first ..


----------



## Refurb7 (Sep 2, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I don’t understand the point of Autofocus at -6 EV.


Weddings, dark rooms, moving subjects, fast focus, and no need for autofocus assist light from a flash, etc.


----------



## Fwiler (Sep 2, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I don’t understand the point of Autofocus at -6 EV.


I quoted that, but didn't write that.
Any given Exposure Value (EV) is an absolute value. EV -6 is a fixed amount of light which is 6 stops less than EV 0.
I don't think he was referring to Exposure Compensation of the metering system, which maybe you were thinking.
I still think if this was true, there's going to be small print saying *in optimal conditions, which as we know, means rarely.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 2, 2018)

stg_george said:


> Only 1080p at 60fps ?
> No 120fps ?
> 
> That's a big NO.
> ...



Bye! Sorry to see you leave after 1 post.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 2, 2018)

Refurb7 said:


> Weddings, dark rooms, moving subjects, fast focus, and no need for autofocus assist light from a flash, etc.


I was likely misinterpreting the spec, namely as being able to autofocus in -6EV ambient, which would be pointless.


----------



## Hector1970 (Sep 2, 2018)

Seems strange to have so many details and no FPS number.
The formal announcement will be interesting


----------



## Kit. (Sep 2, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I was likely misinterpreting the spec, namely as being able to autofocus in -6EV ambient, which would be pointless.


Still not fully pointless, but of very limited use. Like shooting with flash without focus assist light.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 2, 2018)

Refurb7 said:


> > I don’t understand the point of Autofocus at -6 EV.
> 
> 
> Weddings, dark rooms, moving subjects, fast focus, and no need for autofocus assist light from a flash, etc.


An example of exposure for a -6 EV scene: 1/8 s, f/2, ISO 204,800. I suspect his point was a perfectly focused shot at an exposure like that is still going to suck.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 2, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I was likely misinterpreting the spec, namely as being able to autofocus in -6EV ambient, which would be pointless.


I don't think you were. When Canon launched the 1D X and touted its -2 EV AF sensitivity, they gave the example of shooting under a full moon. Sounds like they're talking about scene light to me. Obviously the lens matters, and Canon does qualify the spec with an f/number (was f/1.4 years back, not sure if that's changed).


----------



## DArora (Sep 2, 2018)

If Canon launches at previously suggested price point ($1900) and the read noise is as good as 5D4, I am buying it sending it for H-alpha modification.  5D4 is too expensive for that!


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

mppix said:


> Once somebody said that "Canon fails every time when they have the chance to completely take over the market". Here we go.




They don't fail at much. Again: 50% global ILC share. 

Sony made a lovely little FF mirrorless market out of nothing. Now Canon will take its 50%. It's not complicated.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Sep 2, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> An example of exposure for a -6 EV scene: 1/8 s, f/2, ISO 204,800. I suspect his point was a perfectly focused shot at an exposure like that is still going to suck.




Correct, but it's another way of saying, 'Bring this thing and the AF won't let you down for lack of light. We've overclubbed this issue so hard that the problem is for all intents and purposes eliminated.' That takes one small headache off the table for available light shooters, concert folks, etc.

- A


----------



## Otara (Sep 2, 2018)

For shooting wildlife at night -6ev will be awesome


----------



## Jethro (Sep 2, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> An example of exposure for a -6 EV scene: 1/8 s, f/2, ISO 204,800. I suspect his point was a perfectly focused shot at an exposure like that is still going to suck.


I think the point is that -6 EV is the extreme, but I can imagine lots of situations less extreme where I would want to take in natural light (ie without flash) where this sort of spec will save me. I'll (finally) need to move on from a 6D mk1 soon, and much better EV ability will be a factor in that.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Correct, but it's another way of saying, 'Bring this thing and the AF won't let you down for lack of light. We've overclubbed this issue so hard that the problem is for all intents and purposes eliminated.' That takes one small headache off the table for available light shooters, concert folks, etc.





Jethro said:


> I think the point is that -6 EV is the extreme, but I can imagine lots of situations less extreme where I would want to take in natural light (ie without flash) where this sort of spec will save me. I'll (finally) need to move on from a 6D mk1 soon, and much better EV ability will be a factor in that.


The shot below is from a Halloween storytelling lit by a hearth fire. Exposure was 1/13 s, f/2.8, ISO 102400, processed with DxO Prime NR. At web size, it's still marginal. My 1D X locked focus without a problem, despite it being -3 EV. 

I really can't see -6 EV AF being useful in 'lots of situations', but sure, once in a while it might produce a usable shot. Better to have it than not, of course.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 2, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> An example of exposure for a -6 EV scene: 1/8 s, f/2, ISO 204,800. I suspect his point was a perfectly focused shot at an exposure like that is still going to suck.


Indeed. If it's that dark, focus to infinity and keep your camera on the star tracker...


----------



## Jethro (Sep 2, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> The shot below is from a Halloween storytelling lit by a hearth fire. Exposure was 1/13 s, f/2.8, ISO 102400, processed with DxO Prime NR. At web size, it's still marginal. My 1D X locked focus without a problem, despite it being -3 EV.
> 
> I really can't see -6 EV AF being useful in 'lots of situations', but sure, once in a while it might produce a usable shot. Better to have it than not, of course.


Sure, but I'm saying the usefulness of -2, -3 or -4 EV will come about much more regularly. I don't have anything like that now, and not many of us are ever going to afford / justify 1DXs.


----------



## Etienne (Sep 2, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I don’t understand the point of Autofocus at -6 EV.


No worries, those who do understand will make good use of it.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 2, 2018)

Etienne said:


> No worries, those who do understand will make good use of it.



I’m looking forward to all these good autofocused (so presumably with moving subjects) images from -6EV scenes so I may be more learned.

Looking through that EVF is going to be a treat too.


----------



## tron (Sep 2, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> EV -6 low brightness autofocus + the new 50m f/1.2! Looks a low light beast, so great. I'd add to dust-proof, drip-proof: hopefully drool-proof!


Except a mirror-less is not dust proof when you change lenses. In contrast a DSLR is much more.


----------



## Kit. (Sep 2, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> The shot below is from a Halloween storytelling lit by a hearth fire. Exposure was 1/13 s, f/2.8, ISO 102400, processed with DxO Prime NR. At web size, it's still marginal. My 1D X locked focus without a problem, despite it being -3 EV.


If we look here, we will see that it's about the minimum AF conditions for 1D X II. -3 EV (ISO 100) at 2.8, central point only.

Have you used a f/4 lens (and/or a lower reflectance subject), the autofocus would have likely failed.



3kramd5 said:


> Indeed. If it's that dark, focus to infinity and keep your camera on the star tracker...


Unfortunately, if you do it with 400/5.6, everything closer than a kilometer will be unsharp. Even farther if you add a teleconverter.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 2, 2018)

TMHKR said:


> Did anyone notice the lack of DoF preview button?



Mirrorless doesn’t need it, if implemented well. Viewfinder can show dof.

Was disappointed to see lack of buttons, though, because I like to assign them to other stuff.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 2, 2018)

Jethro said:


> Sure, but I'm saying the usefulness of -2, -3 or -4 EV will come about much more regularly. I don't have anything like that now, and not many of us are ever going to afford / justify 1DXs.


The 6DII has -3 EV AF.


----------



## Lee Jay (Sep 2, 2018)

JBSF said:


> Or anything else that comes close to it....


Well, for $0 I can keep my 7DII and 7 lenses and occasionally use it as an EVF camera by simply attaching my Hoodman Custom Finder Kit.


----------



## JBSF (Sep 2, 2018)

Lee Jay said:


> Well, for $0 I can keep my 7DII and 7 lenses and occasionally use it as an EVF camera by simply attaching my Hoodman Custom Finder Kit.



I’m on the same page, and probably won’t buy this body, but it’s a big step for Canon. I have 7D2 (and 7D) and six lenses. FF not useful for me except possibly 50 MP body with ability to crop. Someday.


----------



## tpatana (Sep 2, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Yeah, I know. I worked 30+ years in the PCB industry where we made backplanes and multilayered boards (At that time, up to 70+ layers). Still, close enough for our purposes. It's a straight pass through. Let's not get too literal.



What the f can have 70+ layers. I can't even imagine. I've worked I think up to 12 or 14. But why you'd need 70? You really can't route those signals in 60, or 20?


----------



## Otara (Sep 2, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I’m looking forward to all these good autofocused (so presumably with moving subjects) images from -6EV scenes so I may be more learned.
> 
> Looking through that EVF is going to be a treat too.



When you go animal shooting at night for owls/possums/sugar gliders etc, currently you have to use a red torch to get AF to lock. Even with this, at times I can have trouble, and also the light can be enough to spook the animal. This -6 EV will be a godsend. Also the EVF can be a real help, as you can set it to amplify the light a lot more than a normal VF can manage, if you separate it from simulating the exposure. Currently when you set it to simulate the exposure with flash on the M5, it works, but keeps going dark as it seems to keep forgetting the flash is on. Its almost like having free NV goggles.


----------



## james75 (Sep 2, 2018)

Nokoshita has updated the specs some more. Looks like 4k 30p, full HD 60p, HD 120p for you video folks.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 2, 2018)

tpatana said:


> What the f can have 70+ layers. I can't even imagine. I've worked I think up to 12 or 14. But why you'd need 70? You really can't route those signals in 60, or 20?



Limited space, high current, controlled impedance connector farm?


----------



## Fwiler (Sep 2, 2018)

tpatana said:


> What the f can have 70+ layers. I can't even imagine. I've worked I think up to 12 or 14. But why you'd need 70? You really can't route those signals in 60, or 20?


Power plus feeds that need to be isolated. But yeah that is high. My only guess would be something custom for military where you only need a limited amount or maybe some communications equipment.


----------



## sanj (Sep 2, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> I have. And I don't. I thought the saving grace was exposure preview. But now that I have the 5Ds...the meter is so freaking reliable that exposure preview seems a minor benefit at best.


I love EVF and they will only get better.


----------



## tpatana (Sep 2, 2018)

記録媒体：SD/SDHC/SDXCカード

I guess that means no CF, and probably no dual-slot.


----------



## bitm2007 (Sep 2, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Isn't that just the back end of the lens?


Thanks. I assumed that was part of a deeper lens mount but on close inspection I think your correct. Odd that it's not colour coordinated with the rest of the lens however, maybe it's a visual reminder of the lens type being attached.


----------



## tpatana (Sep 2, 2018)

最高8コマ/秒（サーボAF時：最高5コマ/秒）
So 8fps normal, and 5fps on servo


背面液晶：3.15型 210万ドット タッチパネル
2.1Mpix touchpanel. 

But how many pixels on evf?


----------



## -pekr- (Sep 2, 2018)

james75 said:


> Nokoshita has updated the specs some more. Looks like 4k 30p, full HD 60p, HD 120p for you video folks.



Cool - no 120p FHD - I thought almost everything is ideal about this camera and here we go - certain bunch of canonites will have something to moan about. Let's add 1 SD card of old tech and it is clear, that Canon is once again *******


----------



## tpatana (Sep 2, 2018)

Spec sheet says bluetooth. Maybe for remotes?

Also mentions face-AF but not eye-AF.

UHS-I SD card


----------



## tpatana (Sep 2, 2018)

Another menu says UHS-II card, and 47 RAW pic buffer with UHS-II card.


----------



## tpatana (Sep 2, 2018)

And is this the mystical slide-thingy?


----------



## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> They don't fail at much. Again: 50% global ILC share.
> 
> Sony made a lovely little FF mirrorless market out of nothing. Now Canon will take its 50%. It's not complicated.
> 
> - A



50% ist still a fail if the opportunity is there to take and absolutely dominate an entire market and drive competitors out of business.

the opportunity was fully there in 2013. canon could have absolutely roflstomped Sony, Fuji, Nikon and the 7 mFT dwarfs back then with a RF mount FF mirrrorfree system and EOS M APS-C bodies like M5/M6/M50. virtually everything we are finally getting today was already invented and technically feasible back in 2012. even dp-af was already implemented in 2013 in the 70D.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 2, 2018)

I have seen way too little chatter about the fact we have a new 50 f1.2. It’s brand new inside right? Not just a 50 L in a new body? Why so little interest? It might the reason I would buy into mirrorless (along with weight) due to my health I can no longer carry the 1dx2 for more than 1-2 hours...


----------



## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

tpatana said:


> Another menu says UHS-II card, and 47 RAW pic buffer with UHS-II card.



i am perfectly fine with 1 slot SD, never had a SD memory card fail. 

47 Raw buffer would be great. more than twice the 5D IV ... to me that clearly indicates UHS-II or even UHS-III.

5d IV performance for comparison (CF UdMA 7 and SD UHS II and I):
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/News/News-Post.aspx?News=18912


----------



## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

tpatana said:


> 最高8コマ/秒（サーボAF時：最高5コマ/秒）
> So 8fps normal, and 5fps on servo



ouch. 5 fps in servo-AF is on the low side. looks like canon marketing nerfed EOS R even below a mirrorfree 6D ii (6.5 fps) rather than a mirrorfree 5D IV (7 fps).

Nikon Z6 was already criticized for "only" 5.5 fps in servo. lol

but, it makes a usd 1990 price point more likely.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 2, 2018)

Don’t know if this is already posted.Eos R pdf


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 2, 2018)

_Pfft!_ Only 5,665 AF points!



-6 EV confirmed, though...


----------



## Viggo (Sep 2, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> _Pfft!_ Only 5,665 AF points!
> 
> 
> 
> -6 EV confirmed, though...




Yeah, Canon even writes in their learning center article that it “potenitally has millions of AF sensors” I guess the keyword was potenitally ... but, it’s a very nice solution to just move the point wherever and not, like Nikon, where you have to scroll through hundreds of points...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> 50% ist still a fail if the opportunity is there to take and absolutely dominate an entire market



In what way is _as much market share as all of the competitors put together, not "_dominating the market"?


----------



## fullstop (Sep 2, 2018)

Keith_Reeder said:


> In what way is _as much market share as all of the competitors put together, not "_dominating the market"?



"market leader" yes. But they could be at 90% of market. Nikon die-hards 9% and Leica holding the 1% luxury segment. Fuji and Sony having left the market by now just like Samsung.


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Sep 2, 2018)

Viggo said:


> but, it’s a very nice solution to just move the point wherever and not, like Nikon, where you have to scroll through hundreds of points...



I'm still a little lairy about how easy it will be to move around the AF point field quickly though. The spec sheet says:


> AF points can be moved by touching the screen *or using the Main Dial, Quick Control Dial or cross keys*.



but they appear to be pretty small controls for man hands and sausage fingers to contend with..!


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 2, 2018)

miketcool said:


> Anyone else hope that the top LCD has a blue backlight like the EOS 3?



Not wildlife ‘togs!


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 2, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> So. Thoughts about adaptors.
> 
> One of the things a new mount brings is the ability to 100% control what lenses are produced for the system, and even adaptors for autofocus lenses.
> 
> ...





That would be one thing that would make me consider ditching Canon. I love my Canon glass, but I love my Sigma glass enough I wouldn’t want to be tethered to a system cut off from that lens innovation.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 2, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> That would be one thing that would make me consider ditching Canon. I love my Canon glass, but I love my Sigma glass enough I wouldn’t want to be tethered to a system cut off from that lens innovation.


Wonder if Sigma lenses become usable on Canon with DPAF or if it’s the same as today with DSLR and PhaseAF via VF.


----------



## cayenne (Sep 2, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> I laugh at all the old people here still talking about resolution in terms of how big a print you can make. Go back to your darkroom, grandpa!
> 
> I do primarily images for online. And with 5K+ screens (14 megapixel) becoming the norm images for screen display a 24 megapixel sensor doesn't end up giving you a great deal of crop flexibility. 40-50 megapixel sensors give much better options for cropping and/or downsampling images to be displayed at their best on a retina-style screen.



People tend to still make "real money" by sellng wall art.....you know, the stuff good enough to occupy a permanent place on the walls of your living abode?

Web shooting is transitory, but quality art for walls, lasts...and often brings in high $$'s.

Now...get off my lawn!!

JK.

cayenne


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 2, 2018)

tpatana said:


> What the f can have 70+ layers. I can't even imagine. I've worked I think up to 12 or 14. But why you'd need 70? You really can't route those signals in 60, or 20?



The most layers in a printed circuit board is 129, and it was created and released by Denso Corporation (Japan) in Chita, Aichi, Japan, on 13 June 2012. So, yes, somebody can.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 2, 2018)

fullstop said:


> "market leader" yes. But they could be at 90% of market. Nikon die-hards 9% and Leica holding the 1% luxury segment. Fuji and Sony having left the market by now just like Samsung.


That totally deserves a .


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 2, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The most layers in a printed circuit board is 129, and it was created and released by Denso Corporation (Japan) in Chita, Aichi, Japan, on 13 June 2012. So, yes, somebody can.



The “you really can’t” was a question, i.e. he was asking why 70 were needed, not if it’s possible to route with that many layers.

If you’re constrained for space and have a bunch of traces which need isolation, adding ground planes is an easy solution. Most boards I see these days have 20 layers or fewer.


----------



## Bambel (Sep 2, 2018)

After reading trough 30 pages.. some thoughts:

Market position
I think it's obvious that the R line is far away from the M line and more close to Canons FF DSLRs. And R lenses obviously more in line with EF than EF-M. If the body will really only be named "R" without number, i guess we will see more segmentation later. And like the M at the time it's a first shot and they will listen to feedback before developing a different form factor.

Lenses
Complete opposit of EF-M and a boom like 28-70/2. Would the same be (economically) possible in EF? AFAIK a lens must use a retrofocus/reverse tele for FLs shorter than the registration distance. On EF, 28 is within that range, on R it's not. All in all an impressive lineup. Maybe we will see cheaper lenses later, like variable aperture zooms and 2,8 pancakes or so. 

Mount
I was a bit surprised by that move but if it enables lenses like the 2,0 zoom it seems worth the hassle. Also, we have to wait and see what canon has officially to say about the benefits of the new mount. A shorter mount is only usefull on short focal lengths, so i guess we won't see any big whites in R anytime soon. On the other hand, Canon could someday offer a EF to R conversion simply by changing the part of the lens body that the mount sits on or by bolting on a fixed, sealed and calibrated extention tube.

B.


----------



## Marc (Sep 2, 2018)

tpatana said:


> And is this the mystical slide-thingy?
> 
> View attachment 180076


Yes I think so. The M-Fn Bar couldn't be any other thing on the body!


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 2, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> The “you really can’t” was a question, i.e. he was asking why 70 were needed, not if it’s possible to route with that many layers.
> 
> If you’re constrained for space and have a bunch of traces which need isolation, adding ground planes is an easy solution. Most boards I see these days have 20 layers or fewer.



Aerospace applications and military were our area. My brothers are the board design guys. I'm (was) the mfg. equipment and automation guy, and process troubleshooter.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 2, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> That would be one thing that would make me consider ditching Canon. I love my Canon glass, but I love my Sigma glass enough I wouldn’t want to be tethered to a system cut off from that lens innovation.



Sigma EF lenses would continue to be useable via the EF adaptors. But it may be unlikely that Sigma would be allowed to produce RF lenses. At least not for a few years.


----------



## tpatana (Sep 2, 2018)

Marc said:


> Yes I think so. The M-Fn Bar couldn't be any other thing on the body!



I'm kinda disappointed on the options. Those sound.... non-creative. If they add strange slide&touch&push -bar, it should do some cool things. Zoom-control would be interesting feature, assuming power-zoom lenses.

Or maybe EVF zoom control to help confirm focus. There's no reason why you wouldn't be able to zoom on EVF, snap to 10x and back with a swipe.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 2, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> The shot below is from a Halloween storytelling lit by a hearth fire. Exposure was 1/13 s, f/2.8, ISO 102400, processed with DxO Prime NR. At web size, it's still marginal. My 1D X locked focus without a problem, despite it being -3 EV.
> 
> I really can't see -6 EV AF being useful in 'lots of situations', but sure, once in a while it might produce a usable shot. Better to have it than not, of course.




It isn’t very often, but sometimes I find myself with the 5D4 needing to use a different light source at roughly the same distance in order to focus for a shot I’m taking. This is typically outdoors in the evening, shooting a creature. This works maybe one out of five times. So I will follow up by manually focusing, racking the focus as slightly as I can from one direction, through the proper focus, and onward a few extra ticks. This might give me eight or 10 shots, and later I can pick the one that is the best focus. That works about half or 2/3 of the time. 

For still subjects, these tactics work for the most part. But I was trying to do things like photograph bats when they come out in the evening, and of course that just wasn’t working. 

I very much appreciate -6ev.


----------



## mpb001 (Sep 2, 2018)

I think that Canon has shown some innovation with this new camera. Although it does not sport a native EF mount, the EF lens adapters are innovative, like with the drop in filter mount and the control ring mount. Even Nikon could not think of that. Then there are two small, but important things that both Nikon and Canon did get right over Sony. The inclusion of a top LCD and making the camera with a better and longer grip. That's what you get from the two top camera companies, cameras, designed with a photographers needs in mind.


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 2, 2018)

Viggo said:


> Wonder if Sigma lenses become usable on Canon with DPAF or if it’s the same as today with DSLR and PhaseAF via VF.


This is one of the reasons I would not touch a Sigma or a Tamron lens that is not “dock compatible”.... with those ones, you can easily get firmware updates.....


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 2, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Aerospace applications and military were our area. My brothers are the board design guys. I'm (was) the mfg. equipment and automation guy, and process troubleshooter.


This is now fantastically off topic, but it’s interesting so I’m going to keep at it. 

That is also my industry, in particular military comms (C4ISR). The customer is often very sensitive to layer count, because there is a relationship to yield. It’s obviously not the end all be all; a 20 layer board with micro vias and sequential laminations is probably riskier than an 80 layer simple board, but still, they don’t like it.


----------



## applecider (Sep 2, 2018)

If this cam is the prosumer camera, which way or ways will the pro bodies go?

Will a DX type have like 24 MP and a high frame rate say greater than 20 and the 5 series equivalent go for high MP and lower FPS, say 8-10 and trickle down tech, or option B might we actually get a 50MP DX with a 15+ FPS.?

Option B is too good to be true, and not in canons method of operation, and lower lighting situations sporting events etc will probably still require the lower number larger pixel solution.

And of course when?


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> This is now fantastically off topic, but it’s interesting so I’m going to keep at it.
> 
> That is also my industry, in particular military comms (C4ISR). The customer is often very sensitive to layer count, because there is a relationship to yield. It’s obviously not the end all be all; a 20 layer board with micro vias and sequential laminations is probably riskier than an 80 layer simple board, but still, they don’t like it.



I've not worked in the PCB industry since 2003 when it seems most of the board shops I serviced moved off shore. I worked for KCA (Anaheim), Multek (Irvine), and then for an equipment and material supplier/servicer in Orange (Circuit Image Systems). Also worked for a contractor I can't mention. I think Korean Circuits of America (KCA) is barely hanging on in the U.S. I'm not sure Multek is even still around. I believe their operations in Irvine moved to Guadalajara years ago, and CIS went bankrupt in 2004, I think. The founder of CIS (Marv Bain) is now deceased.

I actually built a direct impingement copper plating prototype (my design) in 2001. You know why that's important when it comes to vias.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I've not worked in the PCB industry since 2003 when it seems most of the board shops I serviced moved off shore. I worked for KCA (Anaheim), Multek (Irvine), and then for an equipment and material supplier/servicer in Orange (Circuit Image Systems). Also worked for a contractor I can't mention. I think Korean Circuits of America (KCA) is barely hanging on in the U.S. I'm not sure Multek is even still around. I believe their operations in Irvine moved to Guadalajara years ago, and CIS went bankrupt in 2004, I think. The founder of CIS (Marv Bain) is now deceased.
> 
> I actually built a direct impingement copper plating prototype (my design) in 2001. You know why that's important when it comes to vias.



I don’t know any of those shops, but we still have some regional ones like Hughes Circuits, Streamline, and TTM (was VIA systems). There are actually dozens of shops, of highly variable capability


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 3, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I don’t know any of those shops, but we still have some regional ones like Hughes Circuits, Streamline, and TTM (was VIA systems). There are actually dozens of shops, of highly variable capability



haha! I've been to Hughes! I used to service the UV exposure machines. They had Olec machines. I also used to go into Sanmina (sp?) and other shops down there (VIA systems too). It's been so long I can't remember all the names. I think most shops that didn't move off-shore are now mostly R&D and quick turn. The huge high volume shops are mostly gone. There were dozens and dozens in SoCal and the Bay Area way back when.


----------



## researcher (Sep 3, 2018)

Naive question: Since two of the new RF lenses have IS, I'm going to assume for the sake of argument the new EOS R doesn't have IBIS. 

Q: Is there some major technical impediment to making an IS version of the new 28-70mm f2? Or the old 24-70mm f2.8? Would the lens have to double in size or weight or something? I get the impression its one of the highest use lenses out there and I thought IS would be a must have and $$$-generating feature.

Just curious. 

Disclosure: I ask this as somebody who shoots only occasionally with an ancient 40D and the EFS 17-55mm f2.8 IS + 70-200mm F4 L + 50mm f1.8 Mark1 as my main glass. Not exactly cutting edge, but hey, we can dream...


----------



## infared (Sep 3, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Tell me that this is slow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. I am surprised the lens focuses that well. NOW, can you show me where The IBIS is?


----------



## tpatana (Sep 3, 2018)

I'd love to ask more about the multi-layer PCBs, but this thread might not be the right place. Should we open another thread, and/or multi-way PM messages?



researcher said:


> Naive question: Since two of the new RF lenses have IS, I'm going to assume for the sake of argument the new EOS R doesn't have IBIS.



Not certain, but the pdf didn't say so most likely no IBIS.



> Q: Is there some major technical impediment to making an IS version of the new 28-70mm f2? Or the old 24-70mm f2.8? Would the lens have to double in size or weight or something? I get the impression its one of the highest use lenses out there and I thought IS would be a must have and $$$-generating feature.



Weight, size and price go up 2-5x each time you move one stop up. So moving from F4 to F2 is probably quite expensive and heavy.


----------



## Viggo (Sep 3, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> This is one of the reasons I would not touch a Sigma or a Tamron lens that is not “dock compatible”.... with those ones, you can easily get firmware updates.....


Yup, but they never updated the 50 and it didn’t matter, they can’t fix the inconsistency


----------



## justaCanonuser (Sep 3, 2018)

tron said:


> Except a mirror-less is not dust proof when you change lenses. In contrast a DSLR is much more.


Well, that's the reason while mirrorless users always carry a battery driven pocket vacuum cleaner with them. Whenever they change lenses, you can hear that: wheeeeewhhhrrrrrr! Never heard that? In fact, mirrorless digital cameras are an invention of the secret camera and vacuum cleaner conspiracy called PanaSOnon, to boost their combined businesses.


----------



## neonlight (Sep 3, 2018)

is that Ev -6 at ISO 100 or something else?


----------



## mrpellegrini (Sep 3, 2018)

To be fair, this camera will take nice pictures and sell like hot cakes. Canon products are extremely solid performers. Lovely colors, legendary reliability, good weather sealing, perfect ergonomics, and flawless customer service are part of the equation. Specifications are not everything, but I personally think that Canon missed another opportunity to be competitive. The Canon R system only demonstrates that this brand is not willing to give us anything more than they are forced to. In this case, Sony, Fuji, and the Micro Four Thirds cameras are what forced Canon to release a full-frame mirrorless product. Will it be enough to convince people not to switch to Sony and Panasonic? Personally, I find the Canon response quite pathetic. 

_extract from fstoppers_

In my opinion, that is the boldest truth


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2018)

mrpellegrini said:


> Will it be enough to convince people not to switch to Sony and Panasonic? This camera will take nice pictures and sell like hot cakes.
> 
> _extract from fstoppers_
> 
> In my opinion, that is the boldest truth


I edited the quote to put the concepts in the logical order.


----------



## hmatthes (Sep 3, 2018)

researcher said:


> Q: Is there some major technical impediment to making an IS version of the new 28-70mm f2? Or the old 24-70mm f2.8? .


I have been told several times by several Canon folks that the developmental IS versions of the 24-70 f/2.8L never were as perfect as the non-IS since they add another unnecessary element to the optical path.
My 24-70 2.8 is near perfection and I treat it as a non-IS by being mindful of vibrations... I’m old fashioned!


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> I have been told several times by several Canon folks that the developmental IS versions of the 24-70 f/2.8L never were as perfect as the non-IS since they add another unnecessary element to the optical path.
> My 24-70 2.8 is near perfection and I treat it as a non-IS by being mindful of vibrations... I’m old fashioned!




“Unnecessary” is an odd word to use. The element is necessary if you want IS.

One could similarly say zoom lenses add unnecessary elements to facilitate zoom.


----------



## hmatthes (Sep 3, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> “Unnecessary” is an odd word to use. The element is necessary if you want IS.
> 
> One could similarly say zoom lenses add unnecessary elements to facilitate zoom.


Zoom elements are necessary to form the proper optical convergence. IS is necessary IMHO for focal lengths over 70mm being used at 1/60 second or slower. 
The IS element allows slower shutters which might be necessary for some shooters. I rarely shoot under 1/125 without a tripod. If I need slower shutters, I switch to f1.4 or f1.8 primes.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2018)

hmatthes said:


> Zoom elements are necessary to form the proper optical convergence.



Zoom elements are necessary if you want your lens to have zoom capability. The same is true for IS lenses.

To say that either are unnecessary has to be qualified by the type of lens being designed.


----------



## João Taveira (Sep 3, 2018)

It's a shame to not have the image of the grip.


----------



## beachcolonist (Sep 4, 2018)

PureClassA said:


> EV -6 ?!?!?!?!?! Holy CRAP



Says -3 elsewhere.


----------



## Groundhog (Sep 6, 2018)

beachcolonist said:


> Says -3 elsewhere.



-6EV is specified when using an f1.2 lens while the -3EV on others (say the 5D Mk. IV) are specified using an f2.8 lens which explains the different values.


----------

