# Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 16, 2013)

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<p><strong>Sony A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras

</strong>I realize these aren’t made by Canon, but I believe this is a significant enough development in photography equipment to be worthy of a mention here.</p>
<p>For the last few years, I have heard continuously from readers how much they desired a full frame mirrorless camera kit that didn’t cost what a small car does (sorry Leica). Many times I’ve been asked if Canon is developing such a camera, and judging by Canon’s lacklustre commitment to the EOS M line, it appears that definitely is not coming to fruition anytime soon.</p>
<p>Sony has been a leader in moving the mirrorless segment forward, and these two new full frame cameras will only bolster their position in a growing (albiet slowly) market. These cameras are capable of taking lenses from Nikon, Leica, Zeiss and yes, even Canon. You can get one and grow into the system even if you don’t currently have any Sony lenses by using great adaptors. Sony plans to have 15 FE mount lenses in the lineup by 2015. That is the type of commitment consumers want in a system.</p>
<p>The megapixel debate? As I’ve said previously, I used to not care about megapixel count until I used the Nikon D800, the files are remarkable and I’m more than happy to have the extra pixels. Canon is not only behind Nikon in this regard, they’re now getting trumped by the 36.4mp A7R.</p>
<p>I have preordered the A7R and I think a lot of Canon folks will be following suit.</p>
<p>Your move Canon…..</p>
<p><strong>Preorder</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><strong>Sony A7R Body $2298 <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008112-REG/sony_ilce7r_b_a7r_mirrorless_digital_camera.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296" target="_blank">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="ttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FRDUZUK/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00FRDUZUK&linkCode=as2&tag=canorumo-20" target="_blank">Amazon</a></strong></li>
<li><strong>Sony A7 Body $1698 <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008114-REG/sony_ilce7_b_a7_mirrorless_digital_camera.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296" target="_blank">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FRDUZXM/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00FRDUZXM&linkCode=as2&tag=canorumo-20" target="_blank">Amazon</a></strong></li>
<li><strong><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&docId=1001426001&linkCode=ur2&pf_rd_i=sony%20a7&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=1633060542&pf_rd_r=001PVA50N4NSNJXGB9SE&pf_rd_s=auto-sparkle&pf_rd_t=301&tag=canorumo-20" target="_blank">View all Sony FE Lenses & Accessories at Amazon</a></strong></li>
</ul>
<p>The Sony Press Release after the break….</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<p>SAN DIEGO, Oct. 15, 2013 – Sony’s new A7 and A7R digital cameras are the world’s smallest full-frame interchangeable lens models 2. Highly anticipated by professional photographers and imaging enthusiasts alike, the two new cameras offer an unmatched combination of creativity, customizability and portability.</p>
<p>The A7R model features a 36.4 effective megapixel 35mm Exmor® CMOS sensor – the highest resolution sensor in the history of Sony’s A line – with no optical low pass filter for added resolving power and increased image detail. The A7 model boasts an impressive 24.3 effective megapixel 35mm Exmor® CMOS sensor and an innovative fast Hybrid AF system.</p>
<p>Each camera is equipped with advanced imaging features including a powerful new BIONZ® X processor; fast AF capabilities; a clear, bright XGA OLED Tru-finder, full HD 60p video recording, Wi-Fi® and NFC connection, dust-and moisture- resistance and more.</p>
<p>“With these new A7 camera systems, Sony has completely redefined the look and feel of a professional-grade digital camera,” said Mike Kahn, director of the interchangeable lens camera business at Sony Electronics. “The A7 and A7R cameras are significantly smaller, lighter and more portable than any other full-frame interchange lens camera yet deliver image quality, power and performance that professionals and enthusiasts crave.”</p>
<p>Both cameras feature full customization and control to meet the needs of the most demanding photographers. There are 9 different customizable buttons and 46 assignable functions that can be adjusted based on shooting preferences, including fully customizable front and back dials, a rear control wheel and an exposure compensation dial 3. Users can preview all changes to photographic settings in real-time on the high-contrast, 2.4 million dot XGA OLED Tru-Finder or the high-resolution tiltable 3” LCD screen.</p>
<p>The new cameras share a powerful new BIONZ X processor that accurately reproduces details in textures in real-time via extra high-speed processing capabilities, and allows for exceptional low noise performance in all types of lighting conditions. Additionally, the powerful processor combined with the advanced, high resolution sensors allow both cameras to shoot pro-quality Full HD video (AVCHD progressive, 1920x1080p @ 60p) with richly detailed colors and ultra-low noise.</p>
<p>Clear Image Zoom has been enhanced for video recording as well, allowing for powerful close-up shots without sacrificing pixel count. Other pro-style movie features include an audio recording level control and display plus a “live” HDMI® output for passing through video to an external monitor or recording device.</p>
<p>The new cameras both have on-board Wi-Fi and NFC capabilities for instant image sharing and transfer to compatible smartphones and tablets. The A7R and A7 models can access Sony’s platform of PlayMemories™ Camera Apps, allowing users to add new effects, filters, utilities and more. This platform includes new ‘Multiple Exposure’ app, which automatically combines sequential exposures into one creative shot, and ‘Smart Remote Control’ 4, which allows for direct control of exposure and shutter speed from a connected smartphone and is particularly useful for self-portraits or group shots 5. Find out more at www.playmemoriescameraapps.com .</p>
<p>The new A7 and A7R cameras each have a tough, magnesium alloy build and are dust and moisture resistant for standing up to some of the toughest weather conditions.</p>
<p><strong>A7R Camera</strong></p>
<p>Designed for professional photographers and highly advanced enthusiasts, the new A7R model is the world’s smallest and lightest full-frame interchangeable lens camera2.</p>
<p>It has an impressive 36.4 effective megapixel full frame sensor and no optical low pass filter, ensuring that the extraordinary resolving power is fully realized and resulting in an unprecedented level of detail and clarity in images.</p>
<p>The camera features a new Fast Intelligent AF technology that delivers blazingly quick, accurate autofocus. Additionally, there are a total of three selectable sizes for the Flexible Spot AF frame, minimizing the risk of accidentally focusing on the wrong target.</p>
<p><strong>A7 Camera</strong></p>
<p>Offering an exciting entry into the world of full-frame photography, the A7 camera features an advanced 24.3 effective megapixel full-frame Exmor CMOS sensor paired with the powerful new BIONZ X processor.</p>
<p>The exciting new camera has an innovative Fast Hybrid AF system that combines phase- and contrast-detect AF methods to ensure speedy, accurate autofocus. It can also shoot at up to 5 fps continuously with non-stop AF tracking, allowing it to keep pace with fast-moving athletes, wildlife or energetic children.</p>
<p><strong>New Sony A Lenses and Accessories</strong></p>
<p>There are a total of 5 new full-frame E-mount lenses designed to take full advantage of the powerful imaging capabilities of the A7R and A7 cameras, including mid-range zoom lenses from Sony and Carl Zeiss, two bright Zeiss Sonnar T*™ prime lenses and a premium-quality G Lens™ telephoto zoom. Sony’s growing E-mount interchangeable lens lineup now consists of 21 different lenses including the new full-frame models.</p>
<p>In addition to the new lenses, there are also two new-generation mount adaptors that give photographers the ability to utilize full-frame Sony A-mount optics on the A7 and A7R cameras. The LA-EA3 adapter simply adds compatibility for existing A-mount lenses the new cameras, while the LA-EA4 model adds the ultra-fast focusing and shooting capabilities of Sony’s innovative Translucent Mirror Technology.</p>
<p>There is also a new vertical grip (VG-C1EM) that offers greater comfort during vertical shooting and can accommodate two separate NP-FW50 batteries for extended battery life and shooting time. A new BC-TRW compact external battery charger that quickly charges batteries and is great for travel, and FA-CS1M off camera shoe allows the use of external flashes (HVL-43M, 20M) in off-camera wired applications. Additionally, the new LCS-ELCA premium soft leather carry case protects the A7 and A7R cameras from scuffs and marks while being carried.</p>
<p><strong>Pricing and Availability</strong></p>
<p>The Sony A7R and A7 full-frame interchangeable lens cameras will be available for purchase this December</p>
<p>The A7R camera will be offered as a body-only for about $2300.</p>
<p>The Sony A7 compact system camera will be offered with a 28-70mm F3.5 – F5.6 full-frame lens (model SEL2870) for about $2000. It will also be offered as a body-only for about $1700.</p>
<p>The versatile new LA-EA3 and LA-EA4 mount adapters will be available in December for about $200 and $350, respectively.</p>
<p>The new VG-C1EM vertical grip and LCS-ELCA premium case will also be available in December for about $300 and $ 140, respectively.</p>
<p>The new camera and all compatible accessories will be available at Sony retail stores (www.store.sony.com) and other authorized dealers nationwide.</p>
<p>Please visit www.blog.sony.com for a full video preview of the new Sony A7R and A7 full-frame cameras and follow #SonyAlpha on twitter for the latest A camera news.</p>
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## TijmenDal (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Good for you to show this here. And good that you're honest in saying Canon and Nikon have been slacking; because they realle have. They really need to step up their game. Fuji and Sony are leading the way for what I think is the future of camera's.


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## torger (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

For us landscape photographers the wait for a high megapixel body with state-of-the-art dynamic range to be used with lenses like the TS-E 24 II has been tough. But now it's possible at last, with a Sony!


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## captainkanji (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I'm glad they released this. It increases competition and might get Canon to release some new models they've probably been sitting on. Of course, I have no intention of every buying a Sony, but I like that they are good, which forces Canon to be good. I'm sure when Canon finally releases their large MP camera, I won't be able to afford it anyway, so it doesn't really concern me, unless it trickles down to the lower end models. Good for Sony.


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## J.R. (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

all these new cameras are great. However, the breaking point will only arrive if and when Sony can come up with lenses as good as the 24-70 II, 70-200 II, etc. 

For me there is no point buying a Ferrari chassis and pairing it with a Mazda engine. 

As a second / travel kit probably it is great but the lens collection is too small to be a primary kit. I might consider it once the option for the lenses grow in time. 

Cheers ... J.R.


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## torger (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I could potentially buy it with a metabones adapter just to use it with my Canon lenses for landscape photography, and then sell the body when/if Canon comes up with something at the same level of performance. The big investment is in lenses.

I think Canon big megapixel is still quite far away, and I doubt that the first camera will be as good in the dynamic range department as Sony.

Canon have some really great lenses though just waiting to be used with a great sensor. With Canon's own bodies it's like using a Ferrari engine (lens) on a Mazda chassis (camera)...


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## e17paul (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I'm very very tempted. The A7 is a similar price to the 6D & D600, it may become cheaper once the launch hype dies down. The limited choice of FF lenses makes me hold back, but that will change. A-mount lenses would not have the weight and size advantage of a mirrorless lens. If Sony publish a lens roadmap (as Fuji do), then it will give confidence in the platform. 

In addition to the Sony & Sony Zeiss AF lenses, there is an easy opportunity for Voigtlander and Zeiss to produce E-mount versions of their M-mount lenses. The flange spacing must be similar, it's a simple hardware difference. If all that falls into place, and I'm satisfied with the EVF when I try it, then I will have a lot of eBaying to do.

I'm not selling my 6D and EF lenses/adapter yet, but I'm thinking about it. The 6D was the smallest, lightest FF camera apart from Leica. It isn't now.
[Edit: I should have said digital camera, and with interchangeable lenses]

This is the kind of announcement that can herald a sea change in market share, as the change to AF in the '80s saw Canon catch up with Nikon, leaving olympus and others in the dust. On the other hand, it was Minolta (now Sony) who kicked off the AF revolution, canon followed along with the others.


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## J.R. (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



torger said:


> I could potentially buy it with a metabones adapter just to use it with my Canon lenses for landscape photography, and then sell the body when/if Canon comes up with something at the same level of performance. The big investment is in lenses.
> 
> I think Canon big megapixel is still quite far away, and I doubt that the first camera will be as good in the dynamic range department as Sony.
> 
> Canon have some really great lenses though just waiting to be used with a great sensor. With Canon's own bodies it's like using a Ferrari engine (lens) on a Mazda chassis (camera)...



1DX a Mazda chassis ... I'm glad if it works for you!


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## Northstar (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

4fps...boring.


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## torger (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> 1DX a Mazda chassis ... I'm glad if it works for you!





It depends on genre. Canon has always been great for journalism, action, wildlife, ie the high ISO lower res department. This new A7R is not at all that competitive in these genres by the way, too slow.

For still life and landscape you can sure call the 1DX a mazda chassis when you compare with the current competition. Today I shoot most of my landscape with a digital medium format system, but is also interested in a smaller lighter system in some conditions. I don't like to drop down to 18 megapixel and a base ISO dynamic range worse than a medium format digital back from 2004 when doing so though.


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## infared (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> all these new cameras are great. However, the breaking point will only arrive if and when Sony can come up with lenses as good as the 24-70 II, 70-200 II, etc.
> 
> For me there is no point buying a Ferrari chassis and pairing it with a Mazda engine.
> 
> ...



I agree... I have an extensive FF kit ( 5DIII ten lenses from fisheye to 300mm) L glass, Zeiss, best Sigmas...
I also have an extensive MFT kit (E-M5 E-P5..11 lenses from fisheye to 350mm equiv.) all the good AF primes etc.
Sony, classically release great tech in a body and mediocre glass...but they are making more of an effort this time and stocking up on the Zeiss lenses now and upcoming in the next couple of years. As it stands right now..with my advancing age...I can see me in 2-years time, when the next Sony A 36MP body is released with Phase Detection AF, faster frame rate,better VF, 3rd party manufacturers are providing great lenses, the body is improved: just selling off both of my kits and buying into one high-rez kit from Sony.... I am not into slapping MF lenses onto a camera (for the most part...)...but I can see a lot of people abandoning CAnon/Nikon right now who are into the MF thing and never looking back.
It is amazing..the stupidity and arrogance of Canon/Nikon regarding the mirrorless format....mind boggling.
The M is CRAP. Pathetic effort. The V cameras..not much better for serious photographers.
I have an E-P5 with the VF-4 and the photo experience is amazing to say the least...it trumps optical in many ways for me. It is more fun and exciting to use and soooooooo much lighter and smaller!!!! Sony is coupling 36MP capture with all that I just mentioned...Who could not want that!!!?????
I can see in 3 years the Sony A7r system being everything MFT is today...with great glass that is WAY smaller than the current FF CAnon/Nikon glass. MFT is currently an impressive, small, fun system....with very decent capture and a plethora of lenses and more every day... Looks like Sony is the only one embarking on marrying the best of both worlds. 
Canon and Nikon look VERY foolish today. It's also completely inexcusable.
I saw this coming, did you see this coming?????? How could Canon not have an offering by NOW??????????
Just my 2 cents.


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## AquaGeneral (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

With the A7R having a sensor with the effective megapixels close to the D800, and the A7 being close to the 5D Mark III it really makes me exited to think about how Nikon and Canon are going to push themselves.

I bought the EOS M while it was ~$300 at B&H a month or so ago. The biggest problem with it is the delay from taking a picture after another. 

I read somewhere on a DxOMark article that Canon is behind the competition with there sensors due there factory not being as up to date. I'd like to know if anyone knows anything about the state of Canon's sensor fabrication plant.


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## spinworkxroy (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

i'll be honest..
I too am going to get the A7R. Simply because it is what i have been waiting for in a long time.
I'm a Canon fan and i have tons of Canon glass and accessories etc..
But i always thought the weight of the 5D3 was a little too much for me and since i'm not a professional, i don't "need" a professional camera do i.
I have since also made the decision to switch to Sony. I love my 5D3 and all my L glass but somehow the A7R with good zeiss glass…i couldn't see a reason why i needed to keep my canon gear.
I am in fact going to sell away everything and move to Sony by next year once the zeiss 24-70 is launched
Noting against Canon, but i think they are indeed lacking behind in the mirrorless market. I have the M, it's a joke..and with nothing new anytime soon, i can't wait…
Yes i know Canon has something planned, new manufacturing proces, new sensor etc..but by the time they release all that, the competition is yet again few steps ahead..


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## infared (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



spinworkxroy said:


> i'll be honest..
> I too am going to get the A7R. Simply because it is what i have been waiting for in a long time.
> I'm a Canon fan and i have tons of Canon glass and accessories etc..
> But i always thought the weight of the 5D3 was a little too much for me and since i'm not a professional, i don't "need" a professional camera do i.
> ...


You go Boy! LOL!
I am going to be a little patient..but I am definitely headed toward the same boat. How can you not, unless you are a pro who specifically needs certain parts of a pro system. I think when the next Sony body is released and there are many more lenses available is when I will jump. I am skipping eBay too, with their ridiculous percentages...do you know of any forums to sell gear on and just use paypal??????


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## e17paul (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AquaGeneral said:


> With the A7R having a sensor with the effective megapixels close to the D800, and the A7 being close to the 5D Mark III it really makes me exited to think about how Nikon and Canon are going to push themselves.
> 
> I bought the EOS M while it was ~$300 at B&H a month or so ago. The biggest problem with it is the delay from taking a picture after another.
> 
> I read somewhere on a DxOMark article that Canon is behind the competition with there sensors due there factory not being as up to date. I'd like to know if anyone knows anything about the state of Canon's sensor fabrication plant.



I'm content with the number of pixels, for most purposes we have more than I feel the need for. I'm more interested in high ISO performance, and dynamic range at all ISO settings.

I've heard that the updated Eos M firmware gives faster AF, is that the cause of delay from one picture to the next? This may be solved by the 70D sensor. I trust Canon more than Sony on lens design & manufacture, but Sony more than Canon on electronic sensor design and manufacture.


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## zim (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

phew... glad the Canon higherarchy don't frequent these pages otherwise there would be a shed load of Seppuku going on at head office  ;D


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## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zim said:


> phew... glad the Canon higherarchy don't frequent these pages otherwise there would be a shed load of Seppuku going on at head office  ;D


Oh, I am sure they are fully aware of the widespread disappointment in their sensor development. They don't need to read these forums to know that.  .. But what can they do? Perhaps they really don't know how to build a new sensor with higher DR and no shadow banding? Perhaps it's nearly impossible to get around the patent of the Exmor sensor?

I actually feel kinda sorry for them, but I'm not sticking around to wait. I have preordered the A7R. It's the new Canon body I've been waiting for.


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## J.R. (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Funny how many people want to jump ship in a few years because Sony is supposedly to be the next big thing. Everyone has expectations that Sony will have great glass to go with the mirrorless in the near future. Canon will simply stand still ... eh? 

With such great expectations from a company that is not even making a profit on the electronics division, people around here tend to think that Canon, the largest Camera selling company for the past decade, won't come up with something comparable, if not better.


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## bchernicoff (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I'm really surprised that only the A7 has phase detect AF. If you get the A7R, you are stuck with contrast detect AF only. That's a hell of a trade off to get more megapixels. With Sony's history of sub-par E mount lenses, they are going to have to demonstrate they can make lenses that are good enough for a 36mp sensor before I would buy one. I guess the folks that are planning to use Leica lenses with an adapter won't care about AF at all though...


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## infared (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> Funny how many people want to jump ship in a few years because Sony is supposedly to be the next big thing. Everyone has expectations that Sony will have great glass to go with the mirrorless in the near future. Canon will simply stand still ... eh?
> 
> With such great expectations from a company that is not even making a profit on the electronics division, people around here tend to think that Canon, the largest Camera selling company for the past decade, won't come up with something comparable, if not better.



Or...they could end up like Blackberry...asleep at the wheel. Time will tell.


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## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> Funny how many people want to jump ship in a few years because Sony is supposedly to be the next big thing. Everyone has expectations that Sony will have great glass to go with the mirrorless in the near future. Canon will simply stand still ... eh?
> 
> With such great expectations from a company that is not even making a profit on the electronics division, people around here tend to think that Canon, the largest Camera selling company for the past decade, won't come up with something comparable, if not better.


Jump ship? I guess you missed the part about this camera being able to use lenses from Nikon, Leica, Zeiss and Canon.

I am not jumping ship. I am simply not buying another body from Canon until they release a high resolution, high DR camera, in a light and affordable package.

The A7R will keep me entertained until then.


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## lonelywhitelights (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



spinworkxroy said:


> i'll be honest..
> I too am going to get the A7R. Simply because it is what i have been waiting for in a long time.
> I'm a Canon fan and i have tons of Canon glass and accessories etc..
> But i always thought the weight of the 5D3 was a little too much for me and since i'm not a professional, i don't "need" a professional camera do i.
> ...



No need to get rid of all your Canon glass, with an adaptor for the Sony you could keep using them and save yourself A LOT of money. That Sony/Zeiss glass is even more overpriced than Canon glass !


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## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



bchernicoff said:


> I'm really surprised that only the A7 has phase detect AF. If you get the A7R, you are stuck with contrast detect AF only. That's a hell of a trade off to get more megapixels. With Sony's history of sub-par E mount lenses, they are going to have to demonstrate they can make lenses that are good enough for a 36mp sensor before I would buy one. I guess the folks that are planning to use Leica lenses with an adapter won't care about AF at all though...


Could not care less about the AF. I have my 5D3 for such things.

The A7R will give me everything I've been missing with Canon. A big load of MPs and lots of dynamic range. I will be using it for traveling, studio work, landscapes, still life and architectural work. None of which requires state of the art AF.

Oh, and I do love that it's small.


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## AquaGeneral (Oct 16, 2013)

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e17paul said:


> AquaGeneral said:
> 
> 
> > With the A7R having a sensor with the effective megapixels close to the D800, and the A7 being close to the 5D Mark III it really makes me exited to think about how Nikon and Canon are going to push themselves.
> ...



I was far too brief with my post. I was supposed to write a few more thoughts. I agree that the pixel count is great as it is. I meant to add that the Canon sensors are generally beaten in dynamic range, low light performance and such by sometimes much cheaper Nikon cameras. I admit that I am using DxOMark my primary source. I have seen quite a few side-by-side comparisons between a 5D Mark III and the D800. The D800 picks details the Canon barely sees, but of course the Canon does a very good job with the number of pixels it can work with.

Unfortunately those are the feelings I have even with the EOS M firmware update. I do use my 5D Mark III significantly more than my EOS M. I guess the EOS M's performance is definitely good enough once I am used to it.

With Canon's internal "big megapixel sensor" developments, I really am looking forward to see how much they are pushing in their sensor development.


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## Dylan777 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I'm not sure what to say :

I will not sell any of my Canon gear until I hand-on A7 + Zeiss 50mm f1.8. Below are few photos taken with my RX1. This is why I want compact camera but delivers high IQ in any light condition.


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## ksagomonyants (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I know people buy/sell on fredmiranda.com. although I've never done that. 

So, just to clarify for myself. Are these cameras fully compatible with any EF lenses, Zeiss T lenses and have in-body image stabilization? Wondering how AF would work on these bodies with Canon lenses. I guess until recently a lot of third party lenses had issues with AF on Canon/Nikon bodies. 




infared said:


> spinworkxroy said:
> 
> 
> > i'll be honest..
> ...


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## mountain_drew (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



torger said:


> I could potentially buy it with a metabones adapter just to use it with my Canon lenses for landscape photography, and then sell the body when/if Canon comes up with something at the same level of performance. The big investment is in lenses.
> 
> I think Canon big megapixel is still quite far away, and I doubt that the first camera will be as good in the dynamic range department as Sony.
> 
> Canon have some really great lenses though just waiting to be used with a great sensor. With Canon's own bodies it's like using a Ferrari engine (lens) on a Mazda chassis (camera)...


Not gonna happen. The speed booster works on crop sensors.

Is my Speed Booster® or Smart Adapter™ compatible with full-frame camera bodies?
Smart Adapter™ I, Smart Adapter™ II and Speed Booster® are NOT compatible with NEX full-frame camera bodies. If the full-frame camera body is configured to auto-crop mode, cropping will be automatically applied and only the center of the frame will be used.


----------



## schmidtfilme (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Funny how many people want to jump ship in a few years because Sony is supposedly to be the next big thing. Everyone has expectations that Sony will have great glass to go with the mirrorless in the near future. Canon will simply stand still ... eh?
> ...



Could you provide a link to that adapter? Is it supporting AF or MF only?


----------



## Ewinter (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Totally getting one of these for use with old film lenses and peaking for video and an every day camera for when the 1dx is overkill


----------



## preppyak (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Hopefully this is the watershed moment for Sony and they start delivering quality lenses across the price spectrum. Most of their zooms are not well regarded, and the primes are limited as well. If they and Sigma can deliver a half dozen lenses that can match optical performance of a D600 or 5DIII system, they'll have a winner. If not, they'll remain a niche.

Cause right now a lot of their lenses struggled on the NEX-7, so I can only imagine what the A7r will do to them


----------



## torger (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I think this is the adapter: http://www.metabones.com/sony/buy-eos-nex-adapter

Focusing performance etc won't be great of course, but I would be using this camera for landscape and still life (for hand-held action and high ISO Canon is very competitive indeed already), ie manual focus via live-view off a tripod.

Say if it's 1 year until Canon releases it's first big megapixel, and it still lacks in DR (I think it will), and then 2 more years before they become competitive at that point. Having an A7R meanwhile at the same time as say a 5D mark III and use Canon glass via adapter seems like a quite good idea. Sure an extra body on the side only for landscape/still life is an expensive solution, but looking the pile of L glass the main cost is there, not in the bodies, and you would get some residual value off the Sony when selling it second hand when you can get a Canon of corresponding functionality.

Saying that this camera is slow and and focusing performance sucks is missing the point. What we should be excited about is that high resolution high DR sensor and the ability to use our excellent Canon glass with it. If you don't desire this resolution or DR then you don't need to look at it.


----------



## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



schmidtfilme said:


> Could you provide a link to that adapter? Is it supporting AF or MF only?


I still don't know the name of the adapter. Haven't gotten that far yet, but here is a video of a guy using the 17-40L on the A7R, with AF and everything. 

Fast forward to 11:20. (but I recommend watching the entire video).

Sony A7 & A7R Hands-On Field Test


----------



## EchoLocation (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I just pre ordered the a7 and 28- 70 kit lens from Sony.com here in China. 
The a7 and the 28-70 Kit lens are $1860 here in China, which is actually 130 dollars less than in America.
I'm very excited to get some old Takumars or 1.2 manual focus vintage glass and have some fun.
I doubt I will ever buy another DSLR again.


----------



## Zv (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

4 fps for the A7R and 5 fps for the A7 according to the video on Sony's blog. The A7 is coming in at $1698 body only. If was to choose between them I'd go for the A7, seems like a pretty good deal. I don't need 36MP, 24 is fine. 

I'd have to sell something though to fund it. Maybe my EOS M and 7D? Could be a possibility but I don't really need it yet! 

Come on Canon, do something.


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



lonelywhitelights said:


> No need to get rid of all your Canon glass, with an adaptor for the Sony you could keep using them and save yourself A LOT of money. That Sony/Zeiss glass is even more overpriced than Canon glass !



Putting an adapter + L lens(es) on A7 or A7R would kill the primary purpose of mirrorless. You might as well stay with Canon DSLR + L lenses.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

It ups the game a bit for sure. Sony have been ploughing their own furrow and seem to abandon technoogies as quickly as they develop them, no SLT here by the looks of it.

Canon also have they advantage that an EF lens will work on any EOS camera is well established with plenty of choice from budget to high performing.

The Sony idea of letting you fit the APS-C lenses with cropping is a goody (as do Nikon, I appreciate the mirror on 135/leica/minature format EOS cameras prohibits this)


----------



## AvTvM (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

@Dylan: Congrats on your order! Hope your A7 will be delivered to you soon and look forward to reading about your hands-on experience with it! ;-)



Dylan777 said:


> Putting an adapter + L lens(es) on A7 or A7R would kill the primary purpose of mirrorless. You might as well stay with Canon DSLR + L lenses.



I disagree on this one. A small camera allows for a small & light package, when heavy lenses are not needed. When heavy (tele) lenses are reuqired, the package will not be small and light any longer. But I do not need to buy and operate to different cameras from different manufacturers with differen user interfaces in parallel. But only one. I will definitely keep and use my 70-200 II with an adaptor on an A7/R .. if I get one. Wilol still wait somewhat, to see what IQ and performacne are like. And also, beacuse I would like the 24-70 Zeiss as standard walkaround zoom lens. Right now, the only native lens available with the A7R is the 35/2.8 which I do not care for at all and certainly not at a price of 800 Euro.


----------



## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> lonelywhitelights said:
> 
> 
> > No need to get rid of all your Canon glass, with an adaptor for the Sony you could keep using them and save yourself A LOT of money. That Sony/Zeiss glass is even more overpriced than Canon glass !
> ...


Not if you want high resolution, loads of DR and no shadow banding.


----------



## J.R. (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > lonelywhitelights said:
> ...



Roger Cicala's take on lens adapters... There is no free lunch

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters


----------



## symmar22 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Fun that the most exciting thing since a long time on this forum is a Sony camera. I must admit I am excited too, I would have preferred a decently priced High Mpx Canon reflex, but I start to wonder if it will ever happen. The A7r seems so cheap for the sensor it offers, it will probably be my next camera to finally upgrade from my ageing 5D2s. This should be a decent performer to use my TS-E collection for architecture.

The more it goes, the more Canon shows it's lack of creativity, and IMO they should be careful if they want to stay on the podium in the future. While they recycle their old components into a not-so-new camera or make version 4 of the same old lens, other brand are actually creating exciting new products and guess what ? Decent prices. 
Canon is definitely becoming the Japanese Leica, for its conservatism and price policy.

Sony has definitely played a nice move. I'm afraid as too often, Canon will come too late, too expensive and not daring enough.


----------



## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



The things mentioned in that article are irrelevant in actual shooting. The amount of 'give' or misalignment between a regular lens mount and a lens already far exceeds any additional misalignment that would be added by the use of an adapter.

In any case, teleconverters already do this (in addition to putting more optics in the way), and those using technical cameras deal with this with every single lens they use.

Additionally, if you're a landscape photographer (where the edges of the photo actually matter), you tend to shoot stopped down enough that any misfocus due to lens/mount alignment is unnoticeable anyway, even at the highest resolutions.


----------



## alexanderferdinand (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Owning a lot of Canon equipment I have to say: thank you Sony, being such a good competitor!!!
And as we have seen with the new flashes with built in radiotransmitters: lets see, what the old lady C. does!


----------



## Cali_PH (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



torger said:


> For us landscape photographers the wait for a high megapixel body with state-of-the-art dynamic range to be used with lenses like the TS-E 24 II has been tough. But now it's possible at last, with a Sony!



That's exactly what I've been thinking, and the lighter body will help a bit on my long hikes. Not too many people seem to be thinking about this camera this way, but I think that's because there don't seem to be too many people here who's primary interest is landscape. I've rented the D800 and loved the sensor performance at low iso, but didn't like much of the rest of it...weight, size, UI, zooming in to manual focus was blurry, etc. This basically eliminates a lot of the those issues.

I'll wait to see how it performs before buying one, and if I do I won't be selling all my Canon gear. I've read the sensor was optimized for the shorter flange distance for native lenses, being mirrorless. I'm wondering if that has any negative effect when you put an adapter and other glass on it. I've also heard conflicting info about any kind of remote shutter capability, which is almost essential for how I shoot.

I'm also curious about the 
Playmemories App" app capabilities, which I just read about. It apepars to be a store for apps to download to the camera. Could lead to interesting possibilities, such as on-board time lapse.


----------



## Promature (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



infared said:


> I am skipping eBay too, with their ridiculous percentages...do you know of any forums to sell gear on and just use paypal??????



Try Amazon. I've used them in the past and their percent is about 6% and that includes the credit card fees.


----------



## MLfan3 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

only one negative point of this camera is the poor video codec AVCHD and lack of ML.
I am definitely getting the A7 , not the A7R ,which has very poor AF(I tried it at Sony dealers meeting here).
Oh and, the 55mm f1.8 is an incredibly sharp prime, and the 70-200mmf4 is a bit better optically than the EF70-200mmf4LIS or Nikon AFS70-200mm f4VR.
the main reason why I personally avoid the R version is that the R has very slow AF (identical to the AF of the NEX7), the Alpha 7 has PDAF , not as fast as that of the A99v but close.
however, if you can wait , wait till Feb, you will be shocked to see the New Alpha 9 , which will have 4k video with in body SSS, and very very fast PDAF to fully optimize it.
so wait till next CES


----------



## Woody (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



symmar22 said:


> Sony has definitely played a nice move. I'm afraid as too often, Canon will come too late, too expensive and not daring enough.



That was what happened with the EOS M...

I am not entirely happy with the current state of the art for EVF. Will skip a few generations and see what we get then...


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



MLfan3 said:


> only one negative point of this camera is the poor video codec AVCHD and lack of ML.
> I am definitely getting the A7 , not the A7R ,which has very poor AF(I tried it at Sony dealers meeting here).
> Oh and, the 55mm f1.8 is an incredibly sharp prime, and the 70-200mmf4 is a bit better optically than the EF70-200mmf4LIS or Nikon AFS70-200mm f4VR.
> the main reason why I personally avoid the R version is that the R has very slow AF (identical to the AF of the NEX7), the Alpha 7 has PDAF , not as fast as that of the A99v but close.
> ...



I'm glad to hear that. 

How would you compare AF speed of A7 to RX1?

Thanks


----------



## J.R. (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Ricku said:
> ...



You know better than Roger does... WOW! 

Good luck!


----------



## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Woody said:


> symmar22 said:
> 
> 
> > Sony has definitely played a nice move. I'm afraid as too often, Canon will come too late, too expensive and not daring enough.
> ...


You sure? The EVF in A7 / A7R is a new OLED-model. Diglloyd reported that it's the best EVF so far (of any camera brand).

I'm fine with that. I'm quite happy with the EVF in the "aging" Fuji x-pro1.



J.R. said:


> You know better than Roger does... WOW!
> Good luck!


Thanks.

Arrivederci.


----------



## HankMD (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> Funny how many people want to jump ship in a few years because Sony is supposedly to be the next big thing. Everyone has expectations that Sony will have great glass to go with the mirrorless in the near future. Canon will simply stand still ... eh?
> 
> With such great expectations from a company that is not even making a profit on the electronics division, people around here tend to think that Canon, the largest Camera selling company for the past decade, won't come up with something comparable, if not better.


Nokia belatedly tried and failed with its phones. Microsoft may yet fail (or already has). They shared the common characteristic of being big and content, while the smaller companies (Apple, Google) struggled with small market shares. Of course camera tech evolves at a slower pace, and unlike Nokia Canon has irreplaceable techs in the high end of the spectrum. So the worst that'll happen is become a niche company like Leica. But that's no consolation for enthusiasts who expect more.


----------



## infared (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*




spinworkxroy said:


> No need to get rid of all your Canon glass, with an adaptor for the Sony you could keep using them and save yourself A LOT of money. That Sony/Zeiss glass is even more overpriced than Canon glass !



I think you are missing the point....the reason to get into a mirrorless system is to HA a smaller lighter kit AND have high resolution capture....I should be able to shave pounds off my kit and have a much smaller backpack....
Lenses can be made a lot smaller.


----------



## Woody (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> You sure? The EVF in A7 / A7R is a new OLED-model. Diglloyd reported that it's the best EVF so far (of any camera brand).



It's the same EVF as the one in Olympus E-M1.

Current EVF technology still cannot match the dynamic range and colors as the human eye (OVF).


----------



## bholliman (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

This is a significant announcement. Sony and Fuji are making rapid advancements on ILC's that are making them excellent alternatives to DSLR's, at least for non-action shooters.

I just purchased a 6D 9 months ago and am very happy with it, so I will not be looking for another camera for several years. I am also heavily invested in Canon EF lenses. If I were just now looking to upgrade to FF, the A7R would receive heavy consideration.

We still need to see how these cameras test once they are in users hands, but based on Sony's recent history, I imagine they will be great cameras.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...


Unfortunately, Roger is right. The tolerances add to any misalignment already in a lens mount, and Canon makes those mounts to extreme accuracy, almost impossible to measure.

Many adapters are Chinese made, and the accuracy of the mounts is not up to par.

The Nikon mounts are one of the parts Nikon has kept in house, because of the extreme tolerances required.


----------



## jrbdmb (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Woody said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > You sure? The EVF in A7 / A7R is a new OLED-model. Diglloyd reported that it's the best EVF so far (of any camera brand).
> ...



For me it isn't the colors / dynamic range of EVF but the inability to track moving subjects accurately. Or is it a given that action / sports photographers will continue to stick with traditional DSLRs?


----------



## Etienne (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Interesting for sure, but where are the equally interesting lenses?

If they had a couple of really good pancakes, or even just a good 24 2.8 IS, and a 35 or 50 f/2 IS ready to go, I'd be on it like white on rice. But it's still a mirrorless waiting game for me.


----------



## bholliman (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



MLfan3 said:


> Oh and, the 55mm f1.8 is an incredibly sharp prime, and the 70-200mmf4 is a bit better optically than the EF70-200mmf4LIS or Nikon AFS70-200mm f4VR.



I always heard that Canon's 70-200's were the best optically. Are there any side-by-side tests comparing the Canon 70-200mm f/4 IS to the Sony equivalent on a common body?


----------



## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Woody said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > You sure? The EVF in A7 / A7R is a new OLED-model. Diglloyd reported that it's the best EVF so far (of any camera brand).
> ...


On the other hand, in an OVF you wont get candy like focus peaking and focus magnify.

I love those features when shooting fast glass (f/1.2 - f/2.8 ). In many cases this is more reliable than AF i.m.o. Perhaps not as fast, but if top speed is what you need, then this camera might not be your cup of tea.


----------



## J.R. (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



bholliman said:


> MLfan3 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh and, the 55mm f1.8 is an incredibly sharp prime, and the 70-200mmf4 is a bit better optically than the EF70-200mmf4LIS or Nikon AFS70-200mm f4VR.
> ...



The amount of misinformation in this thread is unbelievable!


----------



## J.R. (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



bholliman said:


> This is a significant announcement. Sony and Fuji are making rapid advancements on ILC's that are making them excellent alternatives to DSLR's, at least for non-action shooters.
> 
> I just purchased a 6D 9 months ago and am very happy with it, so I will not be looking for another camera for several years. I am also heavily invested in Canon EF lenses. If I were just now looking to upgrade to FF, the A7R would receive heavy consideration.
> 
> We still need to see how these cameras test once they are in users hands, but based on Sony's recent history, I imagine they will be great cameras.



With a new mount? What's the guarantee that the mount will not be changed 2 years from now?


----------



## J.R. (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > Ricku said:
> ...



It ain't


----------



## sdsr (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



e17paul said:


> AquaGeneral said:
> 
> 
> > I bought the EOS M while it was ~$300 at B&H a month or so ago. The biggest problem with it is the delay from taking a picture after another.
> ...



The EOS M I bought from B&H during the sale came with the new firmware and it still had a maddening lag; for that reason, along with the unreliable focusing and lack of a viewfinder, I recently sold it. Yes, it can take excellent photos, and yes, in that sense it was an amazing bargain, but for me it wasn't worth the annoyance; compared to my Olympus E-M5 the whole experience was an irritating joke. Surely Canon can do better; perhaps they will.


----------



## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sdsr said:


> The EOS M I bought from B&H during the sale came with the new firmware and it still had a maddening lag; for that reason, along with the unreliable focusing and lack of a viewfinder, I recently sold it. Yes, it can take excellent photos, and yes, in that sense it was an amazing bargain, but for me it wasn't worth the annoyance; compared to my Olympus E-M5 the whole experience was an irritating joke. Surely Canon can do better; perhaps they will.


Of course Canon can do better. But tbh, I think they are somewhat terrified of the mirrorless market. The EOS M is a living proof of that.

I think it's all about desperately trying to protect and stick to their current market segmentation.

But dear Canon, now Sony (and soon others) is going to take a bite of your lunch.


----------



## qianp2k (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



torger said:


> I could potentially buy it with a metabones adapter just to use it with my Canon lenses for landscape photography,



It seems metabone EF-FE adapter is not available yet. They only have EF-NEX adapter at this moment.


----------



## Lichtgestalt (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

coud not care less about sony bodys or the few sony lenses.
1000$ for a 50mm f1.8 ... yeah sure.

but at least competition is good.


----------



## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



qianp2k said:


> torger said:
> 
> 
> > I could potentially buy it with a metabones adapter just to use it with my Canon lenses for landscape photography,
> ...


I think I have mentioned this already. But look around 11:25 in this video. EF 17-40L being used and autofocused on the A7R.

Sony A7 & A7R Hands-On Field Test


----------



## msm (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Lichtgestalt said:


> coud not care less about sony bodys or the few sony lenses.
> 1000$ for a 50mm f1.8 ... yeah sure.
> 
> but at least competition is good.



Gladly paying it if it performs great wide open!


----------



## Eldar (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Canon, I hope you´re not missing this wake-up call as well ... Our patience is not endless!


----------



## fotoray (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Do Canon EF and EF-S lenses both fit these cameras? Good possibility without a mirror?


----------



## zlatko (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> sdsr said:
> 
> 
> > The EOS M I bought from B&H during the sale came with the new firmware and it still had a maddening lag; for that reason, along with the unreliable focusing and lack of a viewfinder, I recently sold it. Yes, it can take excellent photos, and yes, in that sense it was an amazing bargain, but for me it wasn't worth the annoyance; compared to my Olympus E-M5 the whole experience was an irritating joke. Surely Canon can do better; perhaps they will.
> ...



Canon is actually making money on electronics, even while the camera market is shrinking. Sony, on the other hand, is losing money. Lots of it. Sony's electronics division has lost $8.5 billion. The reason they are still in business is that they make money on insurance (mostly) and movies and music. Otherwise they would be in a deep hole. 

Canon isn't desperate or terrified about anything. They are doing quite well with a wide range of popular products. Nearly every videographer I see is shooting Canon and has 2 or 3 Canon bodies and a bag full of Canon lenses. The EOS M is proof of nothing more than a first effort.

I hope the A7/A7r is a huge success as it is a great idea. The size, features and pricing look just right.


----------



## sdsr (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

These comments - from a Nikon 800E/Olympus M43 user - seem fairly sensible (in case you don't know of him, his comments and reviews are usually well worth reading):

http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/10/16/sony-a7-a7r/


----------



## J.R. (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > sdsr said:
> ...



Wait ... You haven't heard of Blackberry or Nokia yet  ... These two cameras (lenses unknown) spell doomsday for Canon :


----------



## silversurfer96 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

This looks tempting... Even has a battery grip to go with it. Sure... If I could, I would grab one, but that would be at a different time. Like another responder, I just got my dream camera/lens combinations. I would be using it for some time before looking here. In fact, I will not look.


----------



## Albi86 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Praise to CRguy for posting this. 

Yes, these cameras are great. Maybe they won't be the greatest thing yet, but hey, it's a world first. The system will mature over time - which means more lenses too. Samyang has announced that in 2 months time they will release an FE version of 5 of their lenses. With metabones adapters you can use any Canikon lens and even keep AF capability. If Sigma starts producing their new lenses in FE mount, even better if it's covered by their mount conversion service, I'll be all in.

I'm in the crowd of those who wanted a M9-like camera but had no intention whatsoever to shell out $7K. Sony has made it for only $1.7K, and that fills me with excitement about the future - at the point that I'm not sure I'll invest another penny on a DSLR system. 

Recent history teaches that companies uncapable or unwilling to keep the pace of progress (Kodak, Nokia, Blackberry, etc etc) are ******* to pay the price for it. Here's hoping to see a response from Canikon.


----------



## JohnDizzo15 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

The last few major Sony developments are great for the industry and for the consumer as many have stated. However, I don't think that this is necessarily going to draw as many DSLR customers away from Canon as some in this forum believe (and the ones that are lured away may find it isn't necessarily going to meet all their needs). 

As others have stated, the lens selection is terrible. For those who are excited about adapters to mount EF lenses while retaining AF, all other current examples of this are almost completely worthless if AF speed is of concern to the type of work you do. I was one of the people that was completely stoked when Metabones announced the speed booster which I almost bought along with the NEX-7. They also claim to retain AF functionality on EF glass but state very clearly that it is not anywhere near fast enough for most applications. YouTube videos seem to support this statement if you haven't checked it out. 

If Sony, Metabones, or any other company is able to make an adapter that truly allows usable AF retention, then you can count me in for one as well. But until that issue is solved, my feeling is that the people that are heavily invested in the Canon or Nikon ecosystem will not be quick to jump ship as most of us aren't looking to manually focus (for all intents and purposes) all of our glass. This is not to say there are not some people that would be completely fine with this. 

Regardless, if the price comes down a bit, I may not be able to resist just picking one up to have that oh so sweet 36 mp sensor in my bag as I could still put that to good use in some instances.


----------



## cliffwang (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> I think I have mentioned this already. But look around 11:25 in this video. EF 17-40L being used and autofocused on the A7R.



No kiding. ItIf EF lens can be mounted on Sony's camera bodies and keep the AF, I think I will at least give Sony a try.


----------



## iowapipe (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



JohnDizzo15 said:


> The last few major Sony developments are great for the industry and for the consumer as many have stated. However, I don't think that this is necessarily going to draw as many DSLR customers away from Canon as some in this forum believe (and the ones that are lured away may find it isn't necessarily going to meet all their needs).
> 
> As others have stated, the lens selection is terrible. For those who are excited about adapters to mount EF lenses while retaining AF, all other current examples of this are almost completely worthless if AF speed is of concern to the type of work you do. I was one of the people that was completely stoked when Metabones announced the speed booster which I almost bought along with the NEX-7. They also claim to retain AF functionality on EF glass but state very clearly that it is not anywhere near fast enough for most applications. YouTube videos seem to support this statement if you haven't checked it out.
> 
> ...



Nicely put, thank you. It is exciting news and I have enjoyed my RX100 for what it does. 
These innovations will hopefully push the whole industry toward better endeavors.


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## noncho (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I'm much more interested in RX10, it's like upgraded Canon Pro1, series which everybody of the SLR makers are avoiding.


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## bgran8 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



cliffwang said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > I think I have mentioned this already. But look around 11:25 in this video. EF 17-40L being used and autofocused on the A7R.
> ...



I just put in my order for one. I have wanted a high-megapixel camera for landscapes for a while, and it looks like this will work. 

My concern is that my 17-40 is my go-to lens, but I am wondering how it will resolve 36 megapixels. I typically shoot at f11 to get the best resolution out of the extreme corners on this lens (FYI). Any input? 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



bgran8 said:


> cliffwang said:
> 
> 
> > Ricku said:
> ...


Well, I think the 17-40L kinda struggles on the 5D3 and 5D2. And I think it might be even worse on the 36mp A7R.

However, the guy who made the hands on video review of the A7R, seemed to like the results from the 17-40L..


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## lecoupdejarnac (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I'm definitely going to buy an A7r, but not right away. Probably in about a year I'll sell my 5DII and get one of these, after the metabones AF adapter is tested with more Canon lenses and the firmware is updated.

Canon is either too hesitant to do anything that might cannibalize their own DSLR sales, or perhaps they're just not very innovative anymore. Either way, I wouldn't expect them to come out with a small, lightweight FF camera like this for several years.


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## zlatko (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



CanonPekka said:


> zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > Ricku said:
> ...


I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech. It's amazing, especially as to resolution, dynamic range and color resolution. No problems with it at all. I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.


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## drjlo (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



JohnDizzo15 said:


> my feeling is that the people that are heavily invested in the Canon or Nikon ecosystem will not be quick to jump ship as most of us aren't looking to manually focus (for all intents and purposes) all of our glass. This is not to say there are not some people that would be completely fine with this.
> 
> Regardless, if the price comes down a bit, I may not be able to resist just picking one up to have that oh so sweet 36 mp sensor in my bag as I could still put that to good use in some instances.



While I agree not too many would "jump ship," I can see many people having both Canon and Sony bodies for their L glass collection, e.g. myself. 

Sure, AF will be slow via Metabones and L glass, but if I'm shooting landscape with L glass on that 36 MP D800e sensor, who cares. The fact is Nikon bodies can't take L glass, adapter or not. I for one would love to see the results from my Canon TS-E 24 MM II on that 36 MP sensor. The other thing is, if Canon had come out with something like A7 or A7r, the price would be way higher than what Sony is charging. I figure, I will wait a year or so, buy the A7r after price comes down and while on some Holiday sale ;D


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## Ricku (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech. It's amazing, especially as to *resolution, dynamic range* and color resolution. No problems with it at all. I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.


You need to add more :-*  :   ;D -faces when you tell a joke.


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## zlatko (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech. It's amazing, especially as to *resolution, dynamic range* and color resolution. No problems with it at all. I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.
> ...


100% serious. I'm making great photos with Canon. Their sensor technology proves itself week after week. Also, Canon service is phenomenal. I broke 2 lenses in an accident last week and received them fixed by Canon in just 7 days door to door; that includes shipping time and a 3-day holiday weekend.


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## JohnDizzo15 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



drjlo said:


> JohnDizzo15 said:
> 
> 
> > my feeling is that the people that are heavily invested in the Canon or Nikon ecosystem will not be quick to jump ship as most of us aren't looking to manually focus (for all intents and purposes) all of our glass. This is not to say there are not some people that would be completely fine with this.
> ...



Agreed on all points.

I too am very enthused about the thought of using all three of my TSEs, the Zeiss 50/2, and a ton of legacy lenses that would work insanely well on a Sony body of this type (focus peaking, etc). Only problem is, I don't want to pay 2300 to use just those lenses for very specific instances as I would still prefer my 5D3 for everything else. As such, the A7r would be very limited in scope for the types of work I would be doing with it which wouldn't justify the initial price tag. Much like you, I will wait to see what type of price drops occur in a year before I would seriously consider it. 

Also, if Canon announces their big megapixel body between now and then, I would be more than willing to shell out at least 2-3 times the price of the A7r to be able to have something native for all my glass that has all of the ergonomics I am accustomed to. So a few things have to occur before I am willing to consider having the Canon and Sony bodies running side by side.


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## SpaceGhost (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I am also a big Canon guy but my loyalty extends only as far as Canon gives back. I do feel that lately Canon has been moving much slower. I have been much more excited about Sony's developments. However, I feel better equiped with my pro gear (what I rely on) coming from Canon, but my secondary camera stuff (like my travel stuff) HAS moved to Sony, particularly the NEX-7 with the Sigma 19mm lens.

My only disappointment is the lack of quality lens from Sony for the NEX line without adapters (or doesn't cost way too much for a secondary body).

I have to say, that the Sony a7R looks very intriguing and the launch lens all look great too, much better (and more expensive) than the NEX launch but seems to be a better match. I currently plan on buying a7R as a holiday gift to myself, because I of course earned it! Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

Ironically, I like the retro look, I may get less looks from thieves hopefully.


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## Ricku (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > zlatko said:
> ...


Ah. Well, opinions doesn't change facts. The fact is that Canon is way behind in both resolution and DR.

Dynamic range is the worst. Canon haven't improved on base ISO since the 5D2, and they haven't even figured out a way to get rid of the shadow banding.

But It's cool that you are cool with that. I guess it depends on personal standards really.. I mean, some people thinks that the output from a Powetshot camera is fantastic.  Good for them! Good for you.


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## baervan (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

excuse me for the perhaps stupid question, but why Sony produced these cameras with the E mount, don't they have already full frame lenses on the A mount? wouldn't it make more sense to give it a native A with already available lenses instead a mount for which they still have to come out with some? I mean the current E mount line is only crop isnt it?


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## Dylan777 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



baervan said:


> excuse me for the perhaps stupid question, but why Sony produced these cameras with the E mount, don't they have already full frame lenses on the A mount? wouldn't it make more sense to give it a native A with already available lenses instead a mount for which they still have to come out with some? I mean the current E mount line is only crop isnt it?



SIZE is matter...in mirrorless world small body + small lens = win


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## zlatko (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > Ricku said:
> ...


I really don't experience any of those issues. No shadow banding, etc. Base ISO has never been a problem. High ISO has steadily improved. And dynamic range is excellent. Canon may not meet the standards of some anonymous people, but it meets the standards of a long list of renowned photographers, and a much longer list of not-renowned but very good working photographers and videographers. I don't buy the arguments about dynamic range. As I remember, color slide film (Kodachrome, Ektachrome, Velvia, etc.) had the "worst" dynamic range, and yet it was used by some great photographers (with great results) and praised in publishing, advertising, fine art, etc. The quest for infinite dynamic range, infinite ISO, etc., is a worthy one, but sensors long ago met the technical threshold for high quality work. So it's really not a worry.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



torger said:


> For us landscape photographers the wait for a high megapixel body with state-of-the-art dynamic range to be used with lenses like the TS-E 24 II has been tough. But now it's possible at last, with a Sony!



It's pretty ridiculous that the company that had once been THE only player in the FF game will now be the last to offer a super high MP, high low ISO DR body (Nikon has had one for a long while and SONY now has one, Canon.... chirp chirp chirp). Many said this was coming, the fanboys called them trolls. Well who proved to be the real trolls in the end? Canon went from being all about engineers to being all about business majors and marketing types and milk, milk, milk. It's not like Canon couldn't have done things, they just decided they didn't have to, they told us they were a decade ahead and needn't bother doing anything....

And the thing is, there is an adapter for Canon glass for this new Sony so for static or relatively static work there is basically all but zero cost to play. You just buy and adapter and maybe a spare battery and you are set to go, using all of your current lenses with it. I suppose Canon might not care that much though since they probably make more off of glass than bodies (?).

Not sure I'd instantly jump on this since perhaps canon finally gets sensors with better DR next year?

Maybe this prompts them to give a development announcement very soon to prevent people from blowing their money on this Sony?

You could keep a 5D3 for movies and action stills and general stuff and all your Canon glass and then add a Sony with adapter for all your landscape and other such photography. I already see many Canon people putting in orders for the new Sony.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> all these new cameras are great. However, the breaking point will only arrive if and when Sony can come up with lenses as good as the 24-70 II, 70-200 II, etc.
> 
> For me there is no point buying a Ferrari chassis and pairing it with a Mazda engine.
> 
> ...



But that's the whole point. You don't have to get rid of your Canon stuff or add new Sony lenses (at least for static stuff) just get the metabones adapter and all your lenses work on this body (even with AF, although it will be too slow for action and perhaps some, if not all, wildlife shooting).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



torger said:


> I could potentially buy it with a metabones adapter just to use it with my Canon lenses for landscape photography, and then sell the body when/if Canon comes up with something at the same level of performance. The big investment is in lenses.
> 
> I think Canon big megapixel is still quite far away, and I doubt that the first camera will be as good in the dynamic range department as Sony.
> 
> Canon have some really great lenses though just waiting to be used with a great sensor. With Canon's own bodies it's like using a Ferrari engine (lens) on a Mazda chassis (camera)...



+1


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## zlatko (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



baervan said:


> excuse me for the perhaps stupid question, but why Sony produced these cameras with the E mount, don't they have already full frame lenses on the A mount? wouldn't it make more sense to give it a native A with already available lenses instead a mount for which they still have to come out with some? I mean the current E mount line is only crop isnt it?


The A mount is full-frame but the lenses are made for a greater distance from sensor to lens. E mount lenses are made for a shorter distance. I guess the E mount circle is big enough for full-frame, not just crop (?).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Funny how many people want to jump ship in a few years because Sony is supposedly to be the next big thing. Everyone has expectations that Sony will have great glass to go with the mirrorless in the near future. Canon will simply stand still ... eh?
> ...



+1

5D3 handles action stuff fine, does movies (WITH ML RAW as well as anything) 

A7R gives you super DR for landscape work

sure it would be much nicer to have it in one body (especially since it might be tough to take full advantage of the extra reach for wildlife due to the AF being slow with Canon lenses when used on the A7R) but in the meantime it at least gets your top quality landscape type stuff covered well and WITH Canon glass so it's not a big deal move

when Canon releases one then sell this (or, if Canon simply won't bother with better DR or decides to make it 1DsX $8000 type deal only, then just keep using this for the next few years and forget about buying another Canon body for at least five more years)


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



torger said:


> I think this is the adapter: http://www.metabones.com/sony/buy-eos-nex-adapter
> 
> Focusing performance etc won't be great of course, but I would be using this camera for landscape and still life (for hand-held action and high ISO Canon is very competitive indeed already), ie manual focus via live-view off a tripod.
> 
> ...



+1


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## verysimplejason (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

This would be a perfect 2nd camera for me. My canon lenses wont be wasted, spectacular DR, compact, almost no effect on my workflow and can still switch back seamlessly to Canon if and when it offers a better option... What's not to like? Time to save some extras again...


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## Woody (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> SIZE is matter...in mirrorless world small body + small lens = win



Only to some extent. Sony's upcoming E-mount 70-200 f/4 OSS and 70-200 f/2.8 zooms are not any lighter than Canon's counterpart.


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## wickidwombat (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

i'm pretty interested in the 7R and the 55 f1.8 as a combo since currently all 50mm lenses for canon stink IMO
and of course an adapter to use all my canon glass. I wont be getting rid of my canon stuff anytime soon though but something like this has potential! I have less than 0 interest in a canon high MP body if it is a 1D sized brick if it was 5Dmk3 size id be keen.

while this thread has been based entirely on specs of sensors AF tech details etc I havent seen any feedback on how the thing handles, ergonomics UI etc? anyone thats spent some time with one care to comment on the useability of this beast compared to say a 5Dmk3?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> schmidtfilme said:
> 
> 
> > Could you provide a link to that adapter? Is it supporting AF or MF only?
> ...



The A7R video looks a bit aliased but the A7 looks better than any Canon DSLR native video and they didn't play market segment games with zebras, peaking, etc. etc. (5D3 with ML RAW is very likely still better though)


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> lonelywhitelights said:
> 
> 
> > No need to get rid of all your Canon glass, with an adaptor for the Sony you could keep using them and save yourself A LOT of money. That Sony/Zeiss glass is even more overpriced than Canon glass !
> ...



??? How?

It means you finally Exmor DR for shooting and you don't have to sell Canon glass and try to buy Nikon lenses.


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## wickidwombat (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

oh and if zeiss make a 55mm f1.4 otus with AF for this puppy i think it will be impossible to turn down


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech. It's amazing, especially as to resolution, dynamic range and color resolution. No problems with it at all. I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.



Wow, how much does Canon pay you to shill for them?? How is 2.5 stops worse DR, 50% less MP and modestly less color resolution, truly amazing, world beating?? How is not having improved DR or MP for more than half a decade very pleasing sensor improvements from generation to generation (OK at high ISO maybe, but not at low ISO).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > zlatko said:
> ...



Sure you can take nice photos with a Canon DSLR and maybe they have good service but what does that have to do with top DR, resolution, color sensitivity?? You should run for political office  ;D.


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## zlatko (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > Ricku said:
> ...



The point is that they offer a great system backed by great service. It's not about scoring high on a gear test site. It's about actual use by photographers in a great many applications. Again ... Canon sensors may not meet the standards of some anonymous people, but they meets the standards of a long list of renowned photographers, and a much longer list of not-renowned but very good working photographers and videographers. How is that possible? The reason is that sensors long ago met the technical threshold for high quality work. At this point, worrying about the optimal sensor is about as productive as worrying about the optimal color of one's underwear.


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## deleteme (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



JohnDizzo15 said:


> (and the ones that are lured away may find it isn't necessarily going to meet all their needs).
> 
> As others have stated, the lens selection is terrible. For those who are excited about adapters to mount EF lenses while retaining AF, all other current examples of this are almost completely worthless if AF speed is of concern to the type of work you do.



The appeal for me is a quasi-open system that allows me to choose what sensor to attach to what lens. IOW, I would be very happy to attach my Canon 17 TS-E onto a 36MP FF camera AND also be able to use the Nikkor 14-24 f2.8. My style of photography is tripod mounted, Live View focus images. AF would be nice with the Nikkor but as I am never shooting action or BIF it is not an issue for me.
For events where snappy AF and cool lenses are required I would choose the Olympus as the lenses and the larger DOF would get me more keepers. The AF is fast enough to keep up with wedding action so, for me, that would be ideal.

As noted, depending on the style of photography one would make different choices.

I am also confident that Sony will offer a better lineup of lenses but I am also confident that people will whine about the price.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> At this point, worrying about the optimal sensor is about as productive as worrying about the optimal color of one's underwear.



Maybe for you, but not for everyone including skilled and serious photographers. And I be willing to be that even you could make use of more DR from time to time if you had it.

Sure you can take endless photos where you don't need it, but why be limited to those endless scenarios when there are endless others where it would make a difference?

And saying that you don't need more is one thing and fine enough but making it sound like Canon is class leading in MP and DR and has been making big strides each recent generation is another thing and it's factually not true.


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## zlatko (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech. It's amazing, especially as to resolution, dynamic range and color resolution. No problems with it at all. I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.
> ...



Canon pays me zero. I pay them. Is everything about scoring highest on a few select parameters on a gear test site? What about the rest of the system, from the option to switch to a _smaller_ raw file size to certain unique lenses to ergonomic factors to color when photographing humans (not test charts)?

How is it that some people find a car to be excellent for their needs when it doesn't have the biggest engine, fastest acceleration, heaviest towing capacity, shortest braking, highest headroom, etc.? How can anyone be happy with a car that isn't the absolute best in the world in every parameter we choose to measure?


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## roguewave (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > zlatko said:
> ...



I also find your logic confusing, to say the least - unless you are not entirely honest about who pays who between you and Canon .

First you rave about Canon's "car" having an amazing "engine". As soon as people show that the engine lacks compared to the competition, you sidestep the point and talk about the warranty service. Or that the engine does not matter, only the whole car does. I don't necessarily disagree, but the original argument was about the engine .


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## Dylan777 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > lonelywhitelights said:
> ...



A bulky lens on a tiny body, that's how you kill the primary purpose of mirrorless.

I don't give a dam about DR(current 5D III & 1D X are fine), I bought A7 for one reason: 35mm sensor in tiny body so I can carry around.


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## ksagomonyants (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Loyalty to Canon comes not only from their products but also from their customer/technical support. Sony's customer support is known to be bad and one doesn't want to wait 1-2 months for their DSLRs/mirrorless cameras to be fixed. 

I'd personally wait for Canon's response to this announcement. Will see what their anticipated high MP camera is going to bring, and it seems it'll be released faster than we thought. Apparently the regular 3-4 year cycles for DSLR releases will be gone soon.


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## zlatko (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > At this point, worrying about the optimal sensor is about as productive as worrying about the optimal color of one's underwear.
> ...



As I said, Canon's DR meets the standards of a long list of renowned photographers, and a much longer list of not-renowned but very good working photographers and videographers. Could one use more DR? Of course. We can always use more of _everything_. I could use the 36mp and low-ISO DR of the D800, but then I'd have to put up with with other aspects of that system (which for me outweigh the benefit). I might find a use for a car that can tow a house, but that might not be the car I want to buy. 

Photographers choose gear based on how it meets their actual needs, not based on "endless other scenarios" where some other gear might perform better some day. The new Sony A7 will fit some scenarios wonderfully, but perhaps not others. Should an A7 buyer worry that the A7 won't meet endless other scenarios where some other camera might be better? I don't think so.

I didn't say or make it sound that Canon is "class leading" in MP or DR. I did say that each generation of camera has met my needs better than the previous one and that the things that some anonymous people complain about are just not an issue for me.


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## zlatko (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



roguewave said:


> zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > LetTheRightLensIn said:
> ...



Wow, you're going to keep running with this baseless insult about payment?! This is a serious problem with online forums — anonymous people don't feel bound by norms of civility; instead they feel at liberty to make up lies about others. 

Canon's "engine" works just fine. I stand by that. For proof, just look at the work of some rather good photographers and videographers who use Canon. Don't make me make a list of them ... because it would be _very_ long. One doesn't judge a camera system by the unseen work (or constant complaints) of anonymous people on the Internet.


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## rpt (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



paul13walnut5 said:


> It ups the game a bit for sure. Sony have been ploughing their own furrow and seem to abandon technoogies as quickly as they develop them, no SLT here by the looks of it.
> 
> Canon also have they advantage that an EF lens will work on any EOS camera is well established with plenty of choice from budget to high performing.
> 
> The Sony idea of letting you fit the APS-C lenses with cropping is a goody (as do Nikon, I appreciate the mirror on 135/leica/minature format EOS cameras prohibits this)


+1 

And don't forget what ML can do! Dual ISO and other stuff... I am waiting for their next release on the 5D3 even if it is another Alpha release.


----------



## roguewave (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> roguewave said:
> 
> 
> > zlatko said:
> ...



Well, I thought a smiling face was enough to indicate that I was joking along the lines of LetTheRightLensIn's words. If it wasn't, I apologize - I was joking and I didn't mean to insult you.

However, that does not mean that I agree with you. If you had initially said that Canon's engine "works just fine", that's one thing. Instead, you had made claims that it's "amazing", in areas like DR, resolution, which clearly aren't its strenghts.

I agree that many distinguished photographers have great success with Canon... but that does not prove that the sensor is amazing. As you said yourself, photographers judge the complete system. I am sure they chose Canon for other reasons and not because their sensor's DR and resolution are so great.

So, while I have no reason to draw conclusions about payment, your claims and your reluctance to admit the obvious as far as the "engine", do make you look biased toward Canon.


----------



## verysimplejason (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that's according to your requirements (or definition for that matter) but not for most of us. For me, it's being able to serve as a backup body and as an able, compact walk-around body. You can buy a compact lens or two and yet have it take a bulky lens when you need it. I imagine, it'll also be a good landscape body when you want something lighter but doesn't mind the bulk while retaining or getting better IQ. E.g., my backpack is big enough to contain a DSLR but I would like to keep the weight down as much as possible to preserve my back. Yup, a native, light compact lens might do it, but my 17-40mm seems light enough for me and my wallet.


----------



## gmrza (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



ksagomonyants said:


> Loyalty to Canon comes not only from their products but also from their customer/technical support. Sony's customer support is known to be bad and one doesn't want to wait 1-2 months for their DSLRs/mirrorless cameras to be fixed.
> 
> I'd personally wait for Canon's response to this announcement. Will see what their anticipated high MP camera is going to bring, and it seems it'll be released faster than we thought. Apparently the regular 3-4 year cycles for DSLR releases will be gone soon.



That is what I am hoping - that Canon will respond. Competition is the best thing for a market.
Sony has an uphill battle on its hands as it is behind on service and overall system - photographers buy into a system (which includes flash systems, speciality lenses etc.) not just one body.

I see small mirrorless bodies only addressing a portion of the market - mainly where portability trumps ergonomics and features. Beyond that, the ergonomics of a full-size DSLR body with a vertical grip provide the best package for serious enthusiast and professional use - providing a good control layout and a physically balanced package which works well with large lenses.
For those who have to make do with what they can fit into an airline baggage allowance, or even a backpack which they can shoulder for days on end, this smaller kind of camera is a godsend. A smaller, less obtrusive system is also a boon to street photographers, who dislike the intimidating appearance of professional DSLRs.


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## RobertP (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Can someone explain the advantage of mirrorless cameras to me. If I'm having to tote a big lens to get 24-70 and f2.8 then I'm not going to buy into a system just to get a smaller camera body. I always thought Canon's EF to M lens adaptor was a silly idea. It seemed to offer photographers a way to combine the inferior performance of the M1 with the bulk of an APS-C.

I actually don't want a 24-70. I like taking pictures inside churches - I like medieval architecture - so I want something wider than 24 on a quiet camera that works well in low light. If the Sony's get great reviews and a decent wide angle lens was available from somewhere then I might be tempted but at the moment my Christmas present list still has a 5Dmk iii and a 16-35 lens on it.


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## zlatko (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



roguewave said:


> zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > roguewave said:
> ...



The topic of "payment to shill" isn't really funny, so I didn't take it as a joke. When it comes up, it appears to be a baseless attempt to undermine my statements and attack my character. As I'm not anonymous, I respond to that as I did.

I'll qualify my initial statement that DR, resolution and color are "amazing" with Canon gear by saying they are amazing _to me_. I don't claim they are "class leading" or whatever. But they are amazing to me because I know where we've been with DR, resolution and color in the past, and the technology has come a long way since then, to the point that it is amazing to me and meets my needs amazingly well. Based on that, I am "biased" toward Canon ... to the point that I willingly buy and use their gear (as many other people here do). 

I expect the A7/A7r to be amazing too, but not because of DR, resolution or color — none of which I have complaints about with my current gear. Instead, the amazing part is the dramatic reduction in full-frame camera size & weight.


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## mwh1964 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Would rather get the Fuji X100s.


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## Dylan777 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



mwh1964 said:


> Would rather get the Fuji X100s.



It's fun to shoot with this retro camera: http://dylanphotography.phanfare.com/6246818


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## drjlo (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> A bulky lens on a tiny body, that's how you kill the primary purpose of mirrorless.
> 
> I don't give a dam about DR(current 5D III & 1D X are fine), I bought A7 for one reason: 35mm sensor in tiny body so I can carry around.



Metabones EF adapter will be tons of fun, but portable FF still would be my main reason for buying A7/A7r as well. It's always awkward and a pain to bring my 5D III with a couple of L glass to non-paid, "casual" events/outings. The EOS-M is good, but in the end, it really is no FF, esp. in low-light indoor setting. 

My bone with Sony A7r is how large that Zeiss 55 f/1.8 is, far from pocketable, not to mention the $1000 price. That 35 f/2.8 size would be more to my liking, but f/2.8?? I'm not married to Zeiss and would rather see a compact 35 to 50 mm fast prime with AF for A7 from Sony, or better yet somebody like Sigma, at more like $500, which is where the Sony A-mount 50 f/1.4 goes for.. Sigma ART FE 35 f/1.4, anybody?


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> Is everything about scoring highest on a few select parameters on a gear test site?



No, but you seem to think so since you apparently need to try to cover up if any particular aspect of a Canon is not as good. I mean you were the one who wasn't talking about the overall system or the UI or any of that but tried to imply Canon has been making huge and general strides with each model in terms of the sensor and that the sensors are state of the art for detail and DR and color sensitivity.

[quote What about the rest of the system,[/quote]

I don't know, but you were not talking about the rest of the system in the message that we were all countering.



> from the option to switch to a _smaller_ raw file size



Which isn't really a true RAW and is not all that small for the number of MP it delivers and is useless for maximizing reach without wasting space storing garbage outer areas of the frame. Honestly, I'd rather have the crop options the other brands allow. Full quality cropped RAWs so you retain full everything for reach but don't waste space on excess around the frame edges when you are shooting in distance limited scenarios.



> to certain unique lenses



Yes they do but what does that have to do with your claims that Canon has been making big strides with each body release in terms of MP,DR, color sensitivity when they have not improved any of that for well over half a decade and have gone backwards in terms of color sensitibity? With your making it sound like Canon is right there at the top for DR, MP, color? What else do we expect you to mean you brag on about how Canon is amazing for DR, resolution and color in response seeming to try to counter that Canon sensors are behind?



> to color when photographing humans (not test charts)?



Not every shot has to be of either a typical Caucasian face or of a test chart.



> How is it that some people find a car to be excellent for their needs when it doesn't have the biggest engine, fastest acceleration, heaviest towing capacity, shortest braking, highest headroom, etc.?



Nobody said it wasn't. You started off by claiming that a Toyota Camry has a more powerful engine than a Ferrari F1 car. Sure the Toyota may be fine for most and better for most even but it sure doesn't have a less powerful engine.



> How can anyone be happy with a car that isn't the absolute best in the world in every parameter we choose to measure?



I think we can. I'm not sure you can since you seemed unwilling to admit that any parameter on your equipment might not be the best and when you did you then insisted that the difference could never matter to anyone in any scenario unless they were some slobbering test chart reader. You basically made it sound like any competent photographer, any 'real' photographer would never care. Don't toss rocks if you live in a glass house.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...




Well it all depends upon what your primary purpose for mirror less is. For a Canon user it changes the mount difference in a way that allows one to use Canon lenses on a superb low ISO sensor and that may be the primary interest that this is mirrorless for some.


----------



## e17paul (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



drjlo said:


> My bone with Sony A7r is how large that Zeiss 55 f/1.8 is, far from pocketable, not to mention the $1000 price. That 35 f/2.8 size would be more to my liking, but f/2.8?? I'm not married to Zeiss and would rather see a compact 35 to 50 mm fast prime with AF for A7 from Sony, or better yet somebody like Sigma, at more like $500, which is where the Sony A-mount 50 f/1.4 goes for.. Sigma ART FE 35 f/1.4, anybody?



The reasonably small and fast lens already exists at 35mm, but unfortunately it's fixed to the front of the RX1/RX1R. Maybe Sony will see the light and release it as an E-mount 35/2 for the A7. 

Unfortunately, AF causes lenses to be bigger. My MF Olympus (full frame) SLR lenses are tiny compared to AF Canon SLR lenses. MF Leica lenses will continue to be tiny compared to Sony's AF lenses for the A7. For those happy with MF, I would be surprised if Voigtlander missed the opportunity to release E mount versions of their M glass.


----------



## EchoLocation (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Canon's sensor tech is fine, but there is certainly not a consensus that it's the best(at least outside of this forum.)
I have been very interested in the M9 for a long time, but for a plethora of reasons it was a no go for me.
The sensor tech of Sony has been much hyped since the D800/D600 and I'm extremely pleased to have an extremely modern 24mp sensor, with focus peaking, in a size smaller than any other FF camera on the market.
While this is not going to replace a DSLR for professional use in many cases, I think it will be a huge hit among enthusiasts(and pros) who want a fun camera to travel with or carry around everyday.
As others have noted earlier, you can just buy this camera and use it with your Canon EF lenses, along with other lenses you might have around too(or any other lens you'd want to buy.)
For anyone criticizing this camera, remember this, it features the most modern sensor available at the lowest price available for a FF, all in the smallest size of any FF camera on the market(besides RX1.)
If you don't like it, you certainly don't need to buy it, but I find this camera to be MUCH more exciting than any other camera i've seen in a long, long while.


----------



## Pi (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



EchoLocation said:


> Canon's sensor tech is fine, but there is certainly not a consensus that it's the best(at least outside of this forum.)



How diplomatic!


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## AvTvM (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I wait for sony to bring an A9 in spring 2014. Sensor with 36 MP and on-sensor PDAF powerful enough to drive tracking AF at 8fps. Plus 5-axis in-body stabilizer. Priced below 3k. That will make me switch. I am amateur enthusiast. I want to deal with only one camera system at a time. I want the camera to be as small and light as possible, so i can go really go light when no heavy lens is required. Street, travel, city, mountaineering. And fast enough to track moving subjects and get some action as well. 

I never use manual focus. Been there, done that last century, won't ever go back. 
I want "AF-only" lenses without any manual focus facility. Make 'em lighter, smaller, better weathersealed (IP67) optically decent and keep prices reasonable.
My preferred setup would be 3 tiny pancakes - a 20/4.0, a 40/2.0 and a 85/2.0. all with super fast and precise ring-USM. None of them more expensive than € 300. i don't care for zeiss labels on grossly overpriced sony lenses. 800 bucks for a slow 35/2.8 and 1000 for a 55/1.8? they gotta be joking! 

My idea is more along the lines of the canon EF 40/2.8. small, light, optically good enough for 36 MP ... at 170 euro.


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## zlatko (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > zlatko said:
> ...



You've twisted my points so much that it's hard to recognize some of the points you're attacking. The fact that Canon sensor tech is too "old" or unsatisfactory for some anonymous people on the internet is not worth this lengthy discussion. I'll just repeat that I find the DR, resolution and color to be amazing, along with other factors, and yes I have seen each generation of cameras improve in image quality. Canon also works for a long list of renowned photographers, as well as for a much longer list of not-renowned but good photographers. They buy Canon gear because it meets their needs, sensor tech and all. _It meets their needs_ — how great is that? And some of them choose Canon for very demanding work. Their work is in magazines, books, ads, fine art, videos, etc., everywhere. Some people treat DR and resolution as the _ENTIRE_ engine, when these are only parts of the engine.


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## 9VIII (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Woody said:


> Ricku said:
> 
> 
> > You sure? The EVF in A7 / A7R is a new OLED-model. Diglloyd reported that it's the best EVF so far (of any camera brand).
> ...



I'm still confused about why people would think that looking at the subject through the lens makes the camera take a better picture...




LetTheRightLensIn said:


> zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech. It's amazing, especially as to resolution, dynamic range and color resolution. No problems with it at all. I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.
> ...



Oh boy, better tell everyone with a Nikon D4 to toss their cameras, given that it has 1.3 stops less DR than the D800 and more than 50% less MP. Obviously it's a vastly inferior camera.
Now, take that garbage D4 and compare it with the even worse 1Dx, which would you rather have?

Canon sensors are still competent in DR. Maybe not competitive, but they really don't need to be when the rest of the system is so well rounded.
If (and I really need to stress "_if_") the DR of competing sensors goes to something like 20 stops, that would be a big deal, but as is the difference between the best there is and Canons recent offerings is still only about 20%. I don't think they've missed the boat quite yet.


----------



## Kwanon (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I'm not sure yet if Sony releasing these cameras is going to play out right for everyone.

For the hobbyist this is really good but it might hurt the development of the high end market. Or boost it who knows..

Leica will have to make their customers think hard why their product costs 2/3 more than these and innovate and make their products worth the money.


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## RGomezPhotos (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Funny that a post that creates a firestorm of conversation comes from a Sony announcement 

I was reading about these cameras on alpharumors.com and you know what they were complaining about? "It's ugly!" Okay, probably not the type of photographers I'd be hanging out with...

One word: Impressive. What can I say bad about it? That it's a Sony product vs. a Canon one. That's pretty much it.

The Fuji X100S. Leaf shutter lens. But fixed. Sony RX1. Full Frame. Also fixed lens. While I shoot mostly with my 50mm, I want options. I think the Sony A99 might be better than the Canon 5D MKIII. But limited lens availability. The pros of the A99 aren't enough to limit lens compatibility.

I've been eyeing that new Zeiss 55mm ever since they announced it a year ago. And my assumptions are right: Impressive. Seeing pictures done with the D800 is truly fantastic. It truly gets close to Medium Format quality. But only in resolution. Tonal Range is still the Medium Format domain. And what I'm hoping the big MP from Canon will challenge. And I think it will. It HAS to if it wants to be relevant.

It all boils back down to what's most important in a photographer's gear bag: lenses. And with the lenses that Sony is coming out with these new cameras is impressive. I don't care about adapters. I'll never use them. I'm a Zeiss follower and extremely happy they will be offering a 55mm f1.8 with this camera. The Zeiss 24-70 f4 could be cool. Though for $1200, it should be f2.8. But not bad.

Canon isn't sweating. They are the 800lb gorilla. Though I think they missed an amazing opportunity. They really slacked on the EOS-M and the mirrorless market. And the A7R looks to be a damn fine high MP camera equally capable with the Nikon D800. At $800 less. 

I'm hoping Canon will announce their high MP camera next week at PhotoPlus in NY. Though I doubt it. We all know it will be released within a year. We're just getting too much info on it. And Zeiss wouldn't have released their 55mm f1.4 without the big MP Canon being on the horizon. Though I'm sure they'll get lots of Nikon D800 users lining up for it in the meantime.

As a fashion professional who uses Canon, I still don't see enough to switch. Yet. Lots of things to consider still: lens availability and quality, peripherals (flashes and trigger/receivers). I couldn't see myself having my 5D MK II and one of these Sony's as a backup. At the very minimum, I would need the lens adapter AND remember two different menu systems. Not to mention compatibility issues with peripherals. So I'd have to completely switch. And this system has a long way to go to be considered by serious pros. Once they get peripheral compatibility, this would be an awesome setup. Especially for travel.

If I were a person upgrading to FF or a new pro, I would have to seriously consider these cameras. I would love to get the A7R with the Zeiss 55mm f1.8 as my everyday and travel setup. I'd also use it for events that I shoot for fun. My 5D would only be used for real shoots. And really, would start collecting dust. The A7R I see as a camera I could keep for just these purposes for the next 3 - 5 years. Easy.

Sony is going to OWN the mirrorless market for the next 6 - 9 months with these cameras. They might even make camera of the year by Popular Photography. Wouldn't be surprised.

While I can't even think about buying either of these cameras anytime soon, it opens a whole bunch of possibilities for other manufacturers. It raises the bar for both Nikon and Canon. 2014 WILL be Canon's year. But I think Sony just nailed 2013...


----------



## Apop (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

This is some really interesting news,

Originally i was looking to pick up a 6d or 5d to complement the 1div on a upcoming trip, But this kind of got me thinking about an a7r with metabones as 'back up' and high res camera.

Just need to wait and see how focus capabilities are , it doesn't have to be fast, just decent enough to take a picture of walking subjects

any users of a nex series with metabones (smartadapter,not speedboost) ?


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## sanj (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Why does anyone think these are 'back up' cameras?


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## pedro (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sanj said:


> Why does anyone think these are 'back up' cameras?



From a Canonite's point of view I can imagine, that these bodies cover just a certain area: more MP, better DR and less weight, therefore the use of this term. But: one has to deal with two different systems as well.

I am looking forward to how these announcements will affect Canon's next moves. Hopefully they slow down the insane price tag increases of late. Anyway, the 5D3 is way enough camera for me as an amateur. 

ISO 51200, this past Monday:



Z96A6810bdEFKleinBWMaster by Peter Hauri, on Flickr


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## sanj (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Awesome photo Pedro


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## JoeDavid (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

If reviews show the 36MP model to have as good a dynamic range as the Nikon D800/E I'll probably buy one and an adaptor for EOS lens. For most landscape photography manual focus is fine. I'm tired of waiting on Canon to deliver a truely impressive sensor update. They appear to be doing nothing to address noise or dynamic range. I shoot RAW so I really don't care what the latest DIGIC <fill in the blank> chip can do to give the appearence of a decent sensor in JPEG images...


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## jd7 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

These new FF mirrorless cameras are certainly interested, but I'm with the crowd who is yet to be convinced. The main thing which attracts me - and most other people I think - to mirrorless is having a lighter and somewhat smaller camera. All the excitement about the Sony's got me interested in their weights so I came up with this comparison:

Sony a7	475g v Canon 6D 800g (with battery and memory card)

Sony + 35 f/2.8 595g v 6D + Canon 35 f/2 IS 1135g	(Sony weighs 52.42%; 540g lighter)
Sony + 35 f/2.8 595 v 6D + Canon 40 f/2.8 930 (Sony 63.98%; 335 lighter)
Sony + 55 f/1.8 755 v 6D + Canon 50 f/1.8 930 (Sony 81.18%; 175 lighter)
Sony + 24-70 f/4 OSS 905 v 6D + Canon 24-70 f/4 IS 1400 (Sony 64.64%; 495 lighter)
Sony 70-200 f/4 OSS 1315 v 6D + Canon 70-200 f/4 IS 1560 (Sony 84.29%; 245 lighter)
Sony 70-200 f/2.8 SSM 1975 v 6D + Canon 70-200 f/2.8 IS 2290	(Sony 86.24%; 315 lighter)

So, the Sony a7 saves up to 500g (50%) at the shorter FL, dropping to around 300g or less (15%) at the longer FL. The a7 kit ranges from 600g to about 2kg, while the 6D kit ranges from 1kg to over 2kg.

For the weight savings of the Sony, I have to give up an OVF (I guess some may saying I'd be gaining an EVF, but that's not how I see it), and I expect some battery life (I'm assuming that because of the OVF). And I would currently have a very limited "native" lens selection (will have to see how well adapters work to enable use of other lenses). And is there anything else I'd be giving up too? Ergonomics? AF? I guess we'll have to wait until people have the Sony's in there hands and we get some "real world" info. (And yes, I'm well aware the 6D's AF has it's limitations! But still, the question remains how the Sony's AF will compare.)

Like I said, the a7 and a7r are interesting. I'm looking forward to hearing more once people have had time to shoot with them for a while. But I remain to be convinced! 

And for further comparison:

Olympus OM-D EM-5 430g v Canon 6D	800g 

EM-5 + Olympus 17 f/1.8 550 v 6D + Canon 35 f/2 IS 1135 (EM-5 48.46%; 585g lighter)
EM-5 + Panasonic 25 f/1.4 630 v 6D + Canon 50 f/1.8 930 (EM-5 67.74%; 300 lighter)
EM-5 + Olympus 12-40 f/2.8	812 v 6D + Canon 24-70 f/4 IS 1400	(EM-5 58.00%; 588 lighter)
EM-5 + Olympus 40-150 4-5.6 620 v 6D + Canon 70-200 f/4 IS 1560 (EM-5 39.74%; 940 lighter)
EM-5 + Panasonic 35-100 f/2.8 790 v 6D + Canon 70-200 f/2.8 IS 2290 (EM-5 34.50%; 1500 lighter)

So, the EM-5 saves generally saves at least 500g (close to 50%) at the shorter FL, increasing to around 1.5kg (65%!) at the longer FL at f/2.8. Or if you prefer, EM-5 kit ranges from 550g to 800g while the 6D kit ranges from about 1kg up to well over 2kg. Sure, the EM-5 has a smaller sensor which will give up some IQ under some conditions but still, if weight (and I assume size) is your concern, the EM-5 offers a substantial gain to offset whatever else you lose.

I think if I could afford it, I'd have a 5DIII and an EM-5 ... but for now I think I'll just be sticking with my 6D (and my old 7D).


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## Apop (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I hope the Metabones smart adapter will support af ( even if it's slow )
I wonder if the camera store was using smart adapter or speed booster

The idea of using canon glass on a 36 mp sensor without aa filter sounds pretty good.
20 frames at 4fps for the a7r if i remember correctly , is also pretty good imo


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## Pi (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



jd7 said:


> EM-5 + Olympus 40-150 4-5.6 620 v 6D + Canon 70-200 f/4 IS 1560 (EM-5 39.74%; 940 lighter)
> EM-5 + Panasonic 35-100 f/2.8 790 v 6D + Canon 70-200 f/2.8 IS 2290 (EM-5 34.50%; 1500 lighter)



You should compare the 35-100 f/2.8 to the 70-200 f/4 IS (the latter is even faster) or to the 70-300 non L.


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## JoeDavid (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I'm also interested in the RX-10 all-in-one as a travel camera when photography is not the primary reason I'm traveling (i.e., business or family travel). It uses the 1" sensor but, with a Carl Zeiss 24-200mm equivalent lens and constant f2.8 aperture, I might pick one up if it has a good review.


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## Dylan777 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sanj said:


> Why does anyone think these are 'back up' cameras?



+1...I don't get it either. Especially "I don't need new Zeiss FE lenses beccause they over priced". Better yet "I already have huge collection of L lenses"


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## Rienzphotoz (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



pedro said:


> ISO 51200, this past Monday:
> 
> 
> 
> Z96A6810bdEFKleinBWMaster by Peter Hauri, on Flickr


Superb!


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## Ricku (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



pedro said:


> ISO 51200, this past Monday:
> 
> 
> 
> Z96A6810bdEFKleinBWMaster by Peter Hauri, on Flickr



That is a very nice image Pedro, but it doesn't bring anything to this discussion. It only demonstrates what we already know. The 5D3 is an excellent camera for low light shooting. If you like high ISO stuff and want to use your camera as some kind of "military night vision device", then the 5D3 is truly great.

It's resolution and the low ISO performance I am pissed about, especially since I take 90% if my shots below ISO 400.

There haven't been any real improvements in these areas since the 5D2, and even those improvements were kinda incremental. :-\


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## JEL (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I've followed these forums and this site for a while (lots of good info, thanks  ) but I had to register when I saw a post about a Sony mirrorless camera...

I've had one...

Worst piece of **** ever!

Change lens 1 time and dust has already settled on the sensor.
That, in my opinion, is an absolute reason for NOT considering a mirrorless camera if you're serious about your photo-quality.

I'm talking from experience. Mirrorless is not worth a damn thing. You might as well get a pocket-cam then.

I don't work for Canon (or Nikon or Sony or any other cam-manufacturer), but I do have experience with both DSLRs, SLRs and Sony's mirrorless, so I hope nobody will get offended by my 2 cents worth here.

Happy shooting 
(don't get a mirrorless, you'll regret it (even if it's from Canon, should they ever decide to produce such ****, which I hope they never do)


----------



## Albi86 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



JEL said:


> I've followed these forums and this site for a while (lots of good info, thanks  ) but I had to register when I saw a post about a Sony mirrorless camera...
> 
> I've had one...
> 
> ...



Sooooo... dust gets on the sensor while you change lens and you blame the camera? 
And you registered for the urge to say this?


----------



## Ricku (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



JEL said:


> I've followed these forums and this site for a while (lots of good info, thanks  ) but I had to register when I saw a post about a Sony mirrorless camera...
> 
> I've had one...
> 
> ...


Hmm. I'm getting this strange kind of feeling that you don't really like mirrorless cameras.


----------



## torger (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



JEL said:


> (don't get a mirrorless, you'll regret it (even if it's from Canon, should they ever decide to produce such ****, which I hope they never do)



Unfortunately(?) the DSLR concept is as dead as CRTs (you know those big fat TVs and computer screens) was in the early 2000s, but they don't know it yet. DSLRs will hang on for as long EVFs and on-sensor focusing is not as good for the photojournalists and action photographers, but then they will disappear in favor of mirrorless.

It will be interesting to see who will be leading this unavoidable shift in technology. Currently it seems like Sony has the lead.


----------



## JEL (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Albi86 said:


> Sooooo... dust gets on the sensor while you change lens and you blame the camera?
> And you registered for the urge to say this?



Yes, sorry if I stepped on your toe or something, but without the mirror the sensor is wide open and that's just not a clever design. Like I said, I'm talking from experience here. Don't be a fool and fall for this 'fancy smartness' just because I did. DSLRs work. They're tried equipment with a good and stable track-record. I don't care if you go ahead and blow your money on a mirrorless, but I felt a warning was in order. Take it or leave it. Peace out dude! 



Ricku said:


> Hmm. I'm getting this strange kind of feeling that you don't really like mirrorless cameras.



You're like a psychic 
You're right. Mirrorless is a consumer-trick. It sounds really cool, but they never mention the side-effects.



torger said:


> Unfortunately(?) the DSLR concept is as dead as CRTs (you know those big fat TVs and computer screens) was in the early 2000s, but they don't know it yet. DSLRs will hang on for as long EVFs and on-sensor focusing is not as good for the photojournalists and action photographers, but then they will disappear in favor of mirrorless.
> 
> It will be interesting to see who will be leading this unavoidable shift in technology. Currently it seems like Sony has the lead.



There might be a group of people who will switch to, or start with, mirrorless. Each to his/her own.
Fact is mirrorless has this major side-effect which WILL ruin your photos.
The choice is obviously your own 
But mirrorless is not a clever design.


----------



## qwRad (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Very interesting release. Would be a great and light high system for wide landscapes while hiking with a 17mm TS-E or even the suggested dark horse Nikon 14-24 f/2.8. With the long teles (especially fast) the weight savings aren't that great and of course there's the issue of AF for tracking etc.

From the video http://youtu.be/bnvgceTEV3c that was linked to this thread a while back I have two issues though.

1) The shutter sound is quite loud vs. the recent silent modes from Canon. This I can live with.

2) Battery-life just plain sucks. The reviewer says "under 300 shots" with the A7r which is just laughable. Imagine a a week long hiking trip or even a weekend trip. All the weight you save vs. a 5D3 for example would be negated by all the batteries you would have to lug around...


----------



## ahab1372 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



JEL said:


> [...] DSLRs work. They're tried equipment with a good and stable track-record. [...]


So were horse and carriage


----------



## 9VIII (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I think the overall design of the A7 is pretty good. It has four wheels on it and a bunch of custom buttons. That's four wheels that can be used for ISO, white balance, and who knows what else. Hopefully that sort of design catches on. The placement of the shutter button is odd, but I guess it's not the end of the world. (and the mode dial has custom settings!)
As long as I get aperture control it should work as well as my 5D2 for indoor shots on a tripod. I actually like that it uses an adapter because that means there's always a tripod foot attached to the lens instead of hanging off the bottom of the camera, which usually feels a lot less sturdy. And it has Wi-Fi to control your shot remotely, it would be great to be able to see what you're doing from in front of the camera.
As appealing as all this is, having all your lenses work natively can be a big deal, and Canon has most of the same features. The big question really is what the price of the big MP from Canon will be. If they put it in the 1D price bracket it's not going to be much of a contest.


----------



## JEL (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



ahab1372 said:


> JEL said:
> 
> 
> > [...] DSLRs work. They're tried equipment with a good and stable track-record. [...]
> ...



Well, choice is good.
Informed choice is very good


----------



## BJDrew (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I know this is somewhat off-topic, but I really do appreciate the heart-felt and honest post about the Sony camera system. From someone so important to the Canon information "engine" - it means a lot. I hope it means a lot to Canon as well. Thanks again.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



torger said:


> the DSLR concept is as dead as CRTs (you know those big fat TVs and computer screens) was in the early 2000s, but they don't know it yet.


What a shame, Canon & Nikon should have hired you for your incredible foresight and the ability to predict future.


----------



## JohnDizzo15 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

None of this is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is, every photog has a differing set of needs. These new Sony developments will be perfect for some and not so much for others.

Assessing these new bodies and coming to the conclusion that they will inevitably replace the current form of DSLRs or render Canon bodies obsolete merely exhibits a lack of understanding of EVERY shooter's needs and a very narrow perspective. No one here can possibly account for all the variances of work or preference that exist out there. 

The A7 and A7r will blow many people away. Conversely, they are still flawed in many ways that make them impractical for many applications such as AF speed with EF lenses, a max flash sync speed of 1/160 (a huge deal to those who shoot anything other than natural light), 300 or less shot battery life, amongst other things that may or may not be found as they start to get into people's hands. 

Either way, these bodies are huge advancements in technology and the mirrorless market. I love that they exist now, and I too am on the fence about getting one as a completely separate kit for working on personal projects with specific lenses (wouldn't make sense for me as a second body for paid work). However, there are still major issues that need to be resolved before it could be viewed as what is going to completely destroy the Canon user's need for their current DSLR or the general DSLR form factor as we know it.


----------



## Albi86 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> torger said:
> 
> 
> > the DSLR concept is as dead as CRTs (you know those big fat TVs and computer screens) was in the early 2000s, but they don't know it yet.
> ...



Well, can't be quite a prophecy, but similarities do exist.

I remember people complaining about low refresh rate and ghosting, inconsistent white point and color reproduction, narrow angle of view, etc etc. Also back then there were hardcore CRT users who snubbed the first generations of LCD displays and swore that they would never truly compete with catodic tubes... and look at the world now.

Human beings love simple novelties but are genetically programmed to refuse big changes. But changes do happen, and people/companies who don't keep the pace are left behind. We now praise Sony for being ahead of the competition, but it's the same Sony which saw its domination of TV market being eaten up by Samsung. And the list is long....


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



JEL said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > Sooooo... dust gets on the sensor while you change lens and you blame the camera?
> ...



Operator error maybe?


----------



## JohnDizzo15 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Good points Albi. 

I do not doubt that mirrorless will be there one day as well. But that day is not today nor is it the official release date of these bodies. I personally do not care whether it is a big change or not. I do not merely hold onto the kit I have because it is what I have always been used to and fear change. There are fatal flaws in the A7 and A7r for my needs (native lens options, flash sync, and battery life) that will not allow me to put all my eggs in that basket to make it my body in my primary kit at present. I long for the day that those issues are solved and I can whole-heartedly make an uncompromised jump. Until then....


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Looks like mini 1D X ;D

Attach EF adapter and 85L II to it, you wouldn't be able to tell the diff. :  :-\


----------



## Albi86 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



JohnDizzo15 said:


> Good points Albi.
> 
> I do not doubt that mirrorless will be there one day as well. But that day is not today nor is it the official release date of these bodies. I personally do not care whether it is a big change or not. I do not merely hold onto the kit I have because it is what I have always been used to and fear change. There are fatal flaws in the A7 and A7r for my needs (native lens options, flash sync, and battery life) that will not allow me to put all my eggs in that basket to make it my body in my primary kit at present. I long for the day that those issues are solved and I can whole-heartedly make an uncompromised jump. Until then....




I do agree with you that the A7's are not the perfection. The thing here is a bit more subtle: considering that this technology will probably mature and see many more manufacturers joining the arena, will they be the majority in a few years? Is it sensible to keep investing in a DSLR, or is it better to start investing in one of these new systems?

A funny thing is that many people have been preaching the demise of APS-C for years. The advent of mirrorless FF, imho, could make APS-C the only segment where DSLR will still be dominant.


----------



## drjlo (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> Looks like mini 1D X ;D
> 
> Attach EF adapter and 85L II to it, you wouldn't be able to tell the diff. :  :-\



Don't know about you guys, but it's totally nuts to buy a $$$ "compact" FF camera, then turn around and add a brick to it. I do wish Sony had utilized all that extra dead space inside the large grip to fit a larger battery. Oh, well, I guess you can't have it all.


----------



## Ricku (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I will never buy that grip. But I can see how it comes in handy for some lengthy studio work.

In a studio it doesn't matter if the camera looses it's compactness. 

When you are done, just leave the grip in the studio.


----------



## waving_odd (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



e17paul said:


> If Sony publish a lens roadmap (as Fuji do), then it will give confidence in the platform.



http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/evolution/e_roadmap/images/roadmap_img_03.jpg


----------



## Ricku (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

All those overlapping focal lengths. :-\








Luckily, Samyang is brining all their razor sharp primes to the table in 2 months, including the 14mm!


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> Looks like mini 1D X ;D
> 
> Attach EF adapter and 85L II to it, you wouldn't be able to tell the diff. :  :-\



It's amazing how Sony got 35mm sensor in a tiny body. As you can see, olympus om-d e-m5 Vs A7/A7R body size.

I just don't see the point of buying 17.3 x 13mm system anymore. My 2 cents: Sony will release more FE lenses at much faster rate than other companies. Why? Sony has Zeiss doing lens design for them.

See video here: Sony Alpha A7 A7r preview


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> All those overlapping focal lengths. :-\
> 
> 
> 
> ...



manual focus or AF?


----------



## Ricku (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> manual focus or AF?


Samyang lenses are all manual. Not that it matters much at 14mm and 24mm. 

I can personally testify to the sharpness of the 14mm. It's easily on par with the 14L. Razor sharp and razor cheap too.

It does have some issues with moustache distortion, but it can be corrected with a profile in lightroom.


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > manual focus or AF?
> ...



Direct mount? or you need an adapter for it? thx


----------



## Ricku (Oct 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Yeah they will all be native. News here: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/miracle-five-primes-for-the-a7-a7r-coming-in-two-months-form-samyang/


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> Yeah they will all be native. News here: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/miracle-five-primes-for-the-a7-a7r-coming-in-two-months-form-samyang/



Thanks for the info.


Little concern about the size though


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## jd7 (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Pi said:


> jd7 said:
> 
> 
> > EM-5 + Olympus 40-150 4-5.6 620 v 6D + Canon 70-200 f/4 IS 1560 (EM-5 39.74%; 940 lighter)
> ...



Hi Pi

I probably shouldn't have used specific comparison set ups in the way I did - it's hard enough to directly compare set ups even when the sensor size is the same (debates about bokeh, how important different amounts of noise are in the "real world", sharpness, etc, etc), let alone when it's not. 

I assume you mean the Canon 70-200 f/2.8 IS is "faster" than the mFT 35-100 f/2.8 in the sense the Canon 6D set up would allow shallower of depth of field. Which is obviously an argument for using one of the comparisons you suggest. On the other hand (and I'm sure you know this already), if shutter time is important (eg shooting action), the Canon 70-200 2.8 should give the same shutter time as the mFT 35-100 2.8 at a given ISO, so in that sense they're comparable. But then other factors come in too, eg if shooting action, you might actually want to _preserve _depth of field (to have multiple players, or player plus ball or whatever, in focus) which would mean having to close down the aperture somewhat on the Canon, leading to a longer shutter time. Of course, the Canon set up has lower noise so you could compensate by increasing the ISO and, based on current gen sensors at least, get back to the same shutter time and still be in front on IQ ... although you'd have given up some portion of the Canon's IQ advantage.

Of course, if I'd applied that reasoning consistently, I'd have compared the EM-5 + 12-40 2.8 with 6D + 24-70 2.8, and the EM-5 + Panasonic 24 1.4 with 6D + 50 1.4 ...

Another example problem in my comparisons - it may not be "fair" to compare the Sony 55 1.8 lens against the Canon 50 1.8 II. I'm expecting the Sony 55 1.8 will be a "better" lens, eg sharper, better build quality. No doubt there could be arguments over some of the other comparisons too!

I guess my point was just to give some very rough and ready comparisons of vaguely comparable set ups, and make the point that mFT offers a significant weight saving (and I believe size too) compared with 35mm DSLR so I can see why people are attracted to it despite its limitations/disadvantages, but the situation seems different comparing 35mm mirrorless and 35mm DSLR. The weight savings of 35mm mirrorless aren't as significant (especially as focal length increases), so to the extent 35mm mirrorless has other limitations/disadvantages compared to 35mm DSLR, I'm yet to get all that excited about 35mm mirrorless at least at this point. Time will tell I guess.


----------



## Pi (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



jd7 said:


> I assume you mean the Canon 70-200 f/2.8 IS is "faster" than the mFT 35-100 f/2.8 in the sense the Canon 6D set up would allow shallower of depth of field. Which is obviously an argument for using one of the comparisons you suggest. On the other hand (and I'm sure you know this already), if shutter time is important (eg shooting action), the Canon 70-200 2.8 should give the same shutter time as the mFT 35-100 2.8 at a given ISO, so in that sense they're comparable.



No, I meant "faster" as allowing more light to reach the sensor, resulting in less noise. 

Lenses do not have shutter time. "Given ISO" is meaningless when comparing different formats. You want to get the same noise, and same DOF. You shoot at 200/5.6 on FF (with whatever ISO you find appropriate, say 1600), and at 100/2.8, at say, ISO 400. You get the same total light, more or less the same noise away from the deep shadows, but FF will resolve considerably more. So the 70-200/4 actually lets 1 stop more light to reach the sensor than the 35-100/2.8. 

Or just take a look at those two lenses. The 70-200 has a larger front element (for a telephoto lens, this more or less determines the physical aperture).


----------



## jd7 (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Pi said:


> jd7 said:
> 
> 
> > I assume you mean the Canon 70-200 f/2.8 IS is "faster" than the mFT 35-100 f/2.8 in the sense the Canon 6D set up would allow shallower of depth of field. Which is obviously an argument for using one of the comparisons you suggest. On the other hand (and I'm sure you know this already), if shutter time is important (eg shooting action), the Canon 70-200 2.8 should give the same shutter time as the mFT 35-100 2.8 at a given ISO, so in that sense they're comparable.
> ...



Ah OK, you meant "faster" in that sense.

Going back to what I said in my last post - am I right in saying that if shooting the same scene, the Canon 6D + 70-200 2.8 set up is going to require about the same shutter time to expose the scene as the EM-5 + 35-100 2.8 set up if both cameras are set at the same ISO? (I know I'm generalising a bit - not worrying about things like differences in T stops, and the way different manufacturers cite ISO.) I take your point that lenses don't have a shutter time - but I'm comparing the two set ups as a whole. And I take your point that in absolute terms, the Canon set up lets in more light in a given time - but it also has to expose a larger surface area. That larger surface area provides benefits such as lower noise, but has other effects too such as giving a different depth of field. That does bring us back to the position in my earlier post, doesn't it?

I have to say I've always struggled with comparing systems with different sensor sizes. If I'm missing something, I'm happy to learn!


----------



## privatebydesign (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



jd7 said:


> I have to say I've always struggled with comparing systems with different sensor sizes. If I'm missing something, I'm happy to learn!



Read this, it is the bible for comparing systems. 

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



qwRad said:


> 2) Battery-life just plain sucks. The reviewer says "under 300 shots" with the A7r which is just laughable. Imagine a a week long hiking trip or even a weekend trip. All the weight you save vs. a 5D3 for example would be negated by all the batteries you would have to lug around...



Yeah, it's not a weight savings thing. But it sure is a getting more MP and more DR and still being able to use Canon lenses thing (although Lens Rentals did cast some doubt on using adapters).


----------



## Pi (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



jd7 said:


> Ah OK, you meant "faster" in that sense.
> 
> Going back to what I said in my last post - am I right in saying that if shooting the same scene, the Canon 6D + 70-200 2.8 set up is going to require about the same shutter time to expose the scene as the EM-5 + 35-100 2.8 set up if both cameras are set at the same ISO?



You are right but you have no reason to shoot at the same ISO. In light limited conditions, you can shoot with a larger sensor at a higher ISO. Noise (photon one) is not created by the ISO. 

It is like having a car with 3 speeds vs. a car with 6 speeds. You do not use the same speed, say, 3, under the same conditions just because they are numbered the same. 



> I take your point that lenses don't have a shutter time - but I'm comparing the two set ups as a whole. And I take your point that in absolute terms, the Canon set up lets in more light in a given time - but it also has to expose a larger surface area. That larger surface area provides benefits such as lower noise, but has other effects too such as giving a different depth of field. That does bring us back to the position in my earlier post, doesn't it?



More light comes with less DOF (assuming the same QE, etc.). There is no other way. That is why the best way is to think in equivalent terms. 100/2.8 on m43 is like 200/5.6 on FF. Same DOF, same FOV, same noise, same diffraction softening (but different resolution in general). In that sense, 70-200/4 is 1 stop faster that the 35-100/2.8 which is 70-200/5.6 equivalent. BTW, the recent m43 bodies have really good sensors. 

Do not mention this to an m43 (only) owner. This makes them mad. They would insist that the 35-100/2.8 is 70-200/2.8 equivalent. 



> I have to say I've always struggled with comparing systems with different sensor sizes. If I'm missing something, I'm happy to learn!



Joe's essay, linked above, is an excellent read. Joe actually posted here a few months ago.


----------



## jd7 (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



privatebydesign said:


> jd7 said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say I've always struggled with comparing systems with different sensor sizes. If I'm missing something, I'm happy to learn!
> ...



Thanks PBD. I had a quick look at the link but it looks like I'm going to have to put a bit of time aside to read the whole thing! I'll get there though - it looks interesting.


----------



## jd7 (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Pi said:


> jd7 said:
> 
> 
> > Ah OK, you meant "faster" in that sense.
> ...



Thanks Pi. I'm still struggling but I think I'm starting to get it. If I understand, 100/2.8 on m43 is equivalent to 200/5.6 in terms of the photographic characteristics you mentioned, including in terms of the total light falling on the sensor. However, because the 35mm sensor has a larger surface area, the intensity of light is less and hence the exposure is less - meaning you need either a longer shutter time or a higher ISO to achieve the same exposure. And then, if shutter time is a limiting factor, it just comes down to the fact the 35mm sensor can use a higher ISO without noise become (more of) a problem - and as you say, since the sensor has that "gear", use it!



> Do not mention this to an m43 (only) owner. This makes them mad. They would insist that the 35-100/2.8 is 70-200/2.8 equivalent.



Awww, but it would be fun! 



> I have to say I've always struggled with comparing systems with different sensor sizes. If I'm missing something, I'm happy to learn!





> Joe's essay, linked above, is an excellent read. Joe actually posted here a few months ago.



Will give it a read! Hopefully by the time I've read that I'll finally understand all this properly.


----------



## moreorless (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



ahab1372 said:


> JEL said:
> 
> 
> > [...] DSLRs work. They're tried equipment with a good and stable track-record. [...]
> ...



More like the difference between a car and a motorbike.

The big misperception a lot of people seem to have for me is that mirrorless at some point replacing DSLR's when the latter offer no viewfinder/AF/battery advantage means that the kind of mirrorless systems we currently see will dominate.

I'd argue that todays mirrorless market is really the story of manufacturers who lost out on the DSLR market looking to chase the previously underserviced compact high quality market. This market didn't just appear out of nowhere, you had systems like the Contax G offering something similar pre digital. These camera's didn't kill off the market for larger FF bodies though which offered balance with larger lenses and a lot of space for controls.


----------



## mememe (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> It's amazing how Sony got 35mm sensor in a tiny body. As you can see, olympus om-d e-m5 Vs A7/A7R body size.



That's pretty easy if there is no need for a mirror or any optical viewfinder...


----------



## Dylan777 (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



mememe said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > It's amazing how Sony got 35mm sensor in a tiny body. As you can see, olympus om-d e-m5 Vs A7/A7R body size.
> ...



Yeap....its' easy for you and me to say.


----------



## roguewave (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> The topic of "payment to shill" isn't really funny, so I didn't take it as a joke. When it comes up, it appears to be a baseless attempt to undermine my statements and attack my character. As I'm not anonymous, I respond to that as I did.
> 
> I'll qualify my initial statement that DR, resolution and color are "amazing" with Canon gear by saying they are amazing _to me_. I don't claim they are "class leading" or whatever. But they are amazing to me because I know where we've been with DR, resolution and color in the past, and the technology has come a long way since then, to the point that it is amazing to me and meets my needs amazingly well. Based on that, I am "biased" toward Canon ... to the point that I willingly buy and use their gear (as many other people here do).
> 
> I expect the A7/A7r to be amazing too, but not because of DR, resolution or color — none of which I have complaints about with my current gear. Instead, the amazing part is the dramatic reduction in full-frame camera size & weight.



Most of us on this forum give credit to Canon where it is deserved, both explicitly and implicitly by buying their products. This is not bias, because most people at the same time acknowledge areas where Canon could improve.

Bias is when somebody has a history of controversial statements, praising everything Canon all the time, even where they currently fall short of the competition. It should not come as a surprise to you when people start questioning your motives, even if the joke itself was not funny or appropriate, for which I apologized. Btw., I was not the one who said it first.

Anyway, I think this discussion is not contributing to the thread, so I suggest we stop it at this point .


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

while is for sure an interesting development, earth shattering it is not. The prelude to the demise of the dslr market, it is not. If mirrorless can get off the ground and run, if people buy into it at this price then we will see interesting developments. But, markets are weird - and the camera market is especially weird nowadays (screw mirrorless, and FF, and anything that isn't a cell phone - many say the whole upper end of the camera market will crumble because consumers are more and more opting out of having a stand alone camera at all because their cell phone is right there - so the race for quality may be lost for the bulk of the market in favor of ease of use and networking. Yes, any slr with wifi now can be run with the cell phone, and images can easily be shared via social networks...but that's like 3 steps more than just snapping the shot with the cell phone - which is what the vast majority want. 

With a consumer market increasingly ditching cameras for cell phones, this widens the gap in IQ which I think will make life a little easier for pros. But, not easy for a mirrorless system like this. I think Sony may have put the cart before the horse here. The A7 and A7r do _*on paper look*_ impressive, but without more glass it will be a hard sell. And as many pointed out, while its a FF sensor, there are many little known things that suck about it (battery life of up to 300 shots...SD cards...), and the unknown - how does the EVF perform? I have toyed with a sony mirrorless and an olympus -- the olympus EVF wasn't as bad as the sony, you could tell it was an electronic translation of the world though - while the sony - I really did not like looking through the EVF, maybe it was because it was lower light, but there was a huge delay in what was seen vs what was happening - which says to me ---- mirrorless is a long way from taking over the market!


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## Ricku (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

First RAW files available online.

Not sure how to process them though. ;D

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/exclusive-first-sony-a7r-raw-files-for-download/


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## privatebydesign (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> First RAW files available online.
> 
> Not sure how to process them though. ;D
> 
> http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/exclusive-first-sony-a7r-raw-files-for-download/



Convert to DNG.


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## zlatko (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



roguewave said:


> zlatko said:
> 
> 
> > The topic of "payment to shill" isn't really funny, so I didn't take it as a joke. When it comes up, it appears to be a baseless attempt to undermine my statements and attack my character. As I'm not anonymous, I respond to that as I did.
> ...



Of course Canon can improve. That's not the point. Every company can improve on some things, including Canon. I don't praise everything Canon all the time, so you must have mistaken me for someone else. I don't care for the EOS M's autofocus. I wish that Canon offered mirrorless cameras similar to the A7, X100S, X-Pro1 and EM-1. I wish the 5D3 had AF points that light up properly. I wish the latest firmware update didn't introduce a problem with flash. I wish they made a better 50/1.4 & 50/1.8. If I thought long and hard, I might find a few other things to criticize. None of them is a big deal for me.

My statements are only controversial in the sense that they go counter to the complaints of a few anonymous people on the internet who seem to make very problematic photos (banding, shadow noise, limited DR, etc.) and blame them on Canon's technology. Ardent critics of Canon's sensors are typically anonymous people whose credibility can't be assessed. Such critics promote the idea that their technical problems would be solved if only Canon did something like some competitor, and yet such critics don't seem to have the sense to solve their problems by buying the products of that competitor.

My statements reflect my personal satisfaction with the current state of Canon's technology. And they are supported by many other photographers choosing Canon despite Canon not ranking highest on some chart on a testing site. Canon may not be "class leading" on some technical parameter, but there are plenty of excellent, talented, knowledgeable, non-anonymous, even "class leading" photographers who choose Canon over competitors.


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## roguewave (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



zlatko said:


> Of course Canon can improve. That's not the point. Every company can improve on some things, including Canon. I don't praise everything Canon all the time, so you must have mistaken me for someone else. I don't care for the EOS M's autofocus. I wish that Canon offered mirrorless cameras similar to the A7, X100S, X-Pro1 and EM-1. I wish the 5D3 had AF points that light up properly. I wish the latest firmware update didn't introduce a problem with flash. I wish they made a better 50/1.4 & 50/1.8. If I thought long and hard, I might find a few other things to criticize. None of them is a big deal for me.
> 
> My statements are only controversial in the sense that they go counter to the complaints of a few anonymous people on the internet who seem to make very problematic photos (banding, shadow noise, limited DR, etc.) and blame them on Canon's technology. Ardent critics of Canon's sensors are typically anonymous people whose credibility can't be assessed. Such critics promote the idea that their technical problems would be solved if only Canon did something like some competitor, and yet such critics don't seem to have the sense to solve their problems by buying the products of that competitor.
> 
> My statements reflect my personal satisfaction with the current state of Canon's technology. And they are supported by many other photographers choosing Canon despite Canon not ranking highest on some chart on a testing site. Canon may not be "class leading" on some technical parameter, but there are plenty of excellent, talented, knowledgeable, non-anonymous, even "class leading" photographers who choose Canon over competitors.



We are starting to converge in our opinions . I agree that every company has strengths and weaknesses and I agree with your Canon wish-list.

We still differ in that you refuse to acknowledge that Canon sensors need improvement. If you just argue against the extreme opinions of a few Canon haters, I have no objection. However, you seem to indicate that Canon sensors are great the way they are. It may not be important to you, but other people wish for better IQ in the 70D, for example. While dual pixel AF is a great feature, the IQ apparently has not really improved compared to the old sensor from years ago. Landscape photographers may wish for more resolution and DR on their FF cameras. These expectations are not unreasonable, if the competition was able to deliver on them.

These points are more or less general consensus rather than just complaints of a few anonymous people. True, distinguished photographers don't waste their time critisizing Canon sensors, but neither do they sing accolades - because they are too busy shooting . That does not mean that they are perfectly happy with these sensors and do not wish for improvements. As long as the sensor is not so bad as to be a dealbreaker, people would continue choosing Canon products for other reasons. Some great photographers may use the 50/1.4 - and yet you yourself admit that it could be better. Similarly, the fact that great photographers use Canon sensors does not mean that the sensor problem does not exist. More so, the sensor that particularly needs IQ improvement is the APS-C sized one, which is less frequently used by the pros.

I believe that the problematic photos you mentioned are simply used to emphasize and demonstrate the problem, just like a brick wall photo is used to evaluate distortion and does not represent the photographer's actual art.

I also agree with you that Canon can't and needn't top every chart on every testing site. On the other hand, when after years of stagnation, their APS-C sensor is outperformed by almost every other company's sensor and even by the smaller MFT sensors, I find that frustrating.


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## HankMD (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> All those overlapping focal lengths. :-\
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My Japanese is rather limited but the roadmap above does promise a wide-angle zoom, a fast prime, and a macro lens for 2014.


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## moreorless (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Chuck Alaimo said:


> while is for sure an interesting development, earth shattering it is not. The prelude to the demise of the dslr market, it is not. If mirrorless can get off the ground and run, if people buy into it at this price then we will see interesting developments. But, markets are weird - and the camera market is especially weird nowadays (screw mirrorless, and FF, and anything that isn't a cell phone - many say the whole upper end of the camera market will crumble because consumers are more and more opting out of having a stand alone camera at all because their cell phone is right there - so the race for quality may be lost for the bulk of the market in favor of ease of use and networking. Yes, any slr with wifi now can be run with the cell phone, and images can easily be shared via social networks...but that's like 3 steps more than just snapping the shot with the cell phone - which is what the vast majority want.
> 
> With a consumer market increasingly ditching cameras for cell phones, this widens the gap in IQ which I think will make life a little easier for pros. But, not easy for a mirrorless system like this. I think Sony may have put the cart before the horse here. The A7 and A7r do _*on paper look*_ impressive, but without more glass it will be a hard sell. And as many pointed out, while its a FF sensor, there are many little known things that suck about it (battery life of up to 300 shots...SD cards...), and the unknown - how does the EVF perform? I have toyed with a sony mirrorless and an olympus -- the olympus EVF wasn't as bad as the sony, you could tell it was an electronic translation of the world though - while the sony - I really did not like looking through the EVF, maybe it was because it was lower light, but there was a huge delay in what was seen vs what was happening - which says to me ---- mirrorless is a long way from taking over the market!



One thing that's notable to me is that after all the years of hype the A7 really isn't THAT much smaller and lighter than the 6D, a camera that offers more in the way of controls, a top plate LCD and a larger battery. Could it be that because the sensor makes up a larger percentage of a mirrorless body and a good eye level viewfinder is desired by higher end FF users that a lot of the size advantage of mirrorless is removed?

Lens balance with something like a 24-70mm F/2.8 is likely to be an issue but personally I get the impression that a lot of Sony's announced lens lineup has rather modest specs not because there need to balance the system but because there needed to play up size difference.

It seems to me that there might still be potential for a FF DSLR smaller than the 6D as well with features more inline with the A7.


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## Ricku (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



moreorless said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
> 
> 
> > while is for sure an interesting development, earth shattering it is not. The prelude to the demise of the dslr market, it is not. If mirrorless can get off the ground and run, if people buy into it at this price then we will see interesting developments. But, markets are weird - and the camera market is especially weird nowadays (screw mirrorless, and FF, and anything that isn't a cell phone - many say the whole upper end of the camera market will crumble because consumers are more and more opting out of having a stand alone camera at all because their cell phone is right there - so the race for quality may be lost for the bulk of the market in favor of ease of use and networking. Yes, any slr with wifi now can be run with the cell phone, and images can easily be shared via social networks...but that's like 3 steps more than just snapping the shot with the cell phone - which is what the vast majority want.
> ...


If Canon released a high resolution, high DR, full frame sensor in a small and light package _(similar to the EOS SL1) _at an affordable price _(Not Leica or 1D price tag)_, I would be all over it!

But let's face it. They won't. 

I've preordered the A7R, and I intend to use it with my EF lenses. But I'm also going to buy a couple of native lenses, in order to have the size advantage when I want it. Perhaps two from Zeiss and then the ultra cheap but ultra sharp Samyang 14mm for landscapes.

I will not buy another camera from Canon until they get back on the iron throne of innovation and image quality. That's all I have to say.


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## Seta (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I sold my 5D mkII three weeks ago, will keep the money to get the Sony a7; I do macro photography and I am already using Canon MP-E and Canon macro lenses on NEX-5n via Metabones adapter.

I would buy the a7r but electronic first shutter curtain is a must for me and the a7r does not have it.

The superior dinamic range of Sony sensors is important to me and a reason I will not look back at Canon for a long time.


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## seacritter (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

If you do a bunch of macro, a smaller sensor is preferred. Just for the dof. I've been shooting with the Mark II for a while. I just switched my macro work to the GF6 with the 60mm macro. The extended dof is really welcome.

On the other hand... for my other stuff, I'm really getting excited about the 36mp Sony. Especially if I can use an adapter and all of my "L" glass. I've been a Canon shooter for a long time, but they don't seem to be keeping up with everyone else. If the Sony will give me the option of all glass...


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## AvTvM (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Seta said:


> I would buy the a7r but electronic first shutter curtain is a must for me and the a7r does not have it.



according to the specs listed in the table here: 
http://www.photoreview.com.au/reviews/advanced-compact-cameras/interchangeable-lens/first-look-sony-ilc-a7#Full_Review
the A7R (but not the A7) does have an "Electronic front curtain shutter". And X-sync is 1/250 vs. 1/160s for the A7.


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## TokyoDekopon (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> according to the specs listed in the table here:
> http://www.photoreview.com.au/reviews/advanced-compact-cameras/interchangeable-lens/first-look-sony-ilc-a7#Full_Review
> the A7R (but not the A7) does have an "Electronic front curtain shutter". And X-sync is 1/250 vs. 1/160s for the A7.


That specs table on photoreview.com is wrong. 
The following specs comparison is the correct one which is in line with the specs from Sony website.
http://photographylife.com/sony-a7-vs-a7r


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## AvTvM (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



TokyoDekopon said:


> ...
> The following specs comparison is the correct one which is in line with the specs from Sony website.
> http://photographylife.com/sony-a7-vs-a7r



Thanks! 

so,
A7 = Electronic first shutter curtain and 1/250s X-Sync 
A7R = mechanical shutter and only 1/160s X-Sync


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## Pi (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



seacritter said:


> If you do a bunch of macro, a smaller sensor is preferred. Just for the dof. I've been shooting with the Mark II for a while. I just switched my macro work to the GF6 with the 60mm macro. The extended dof is really welcome.



How can the sensor size determine how deep DOF you can get? You can always control it with the aperture. The most important difference would be what the effective FL of that lens is compared to whatever macro lens you use with the Canon. Even the higher pixel density is not as important since you are diffraction limited.


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## sdsr (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Pi said:


> More light comes with less DOF (assuming the same QE, etc.). There is no other way. That is why the best way is to think in equivalent terms. 100/2.8 on m43 is like 200/5.6 on FF. Same DOF, same FOV, same noise, same diffraction softening (but different resolution in general). In that sense, 70-200/4 is 1 stop faster that the 35-100/2.8 which is 70-200/5.6 equivalent. BTW, the recent m43 bodies have really good sensors.
> 
> Do not mention this to an m43 (only) owner. This makes them mad. They would insist that the 35-100/2.8 is 70-200/2.8 equivalent.



That may all be true, even the bit about making m43-only owners mad (I have two FF Canons and an Olympus E-M5, so I'm not in that category and don't know anyone who is), but I think it misses the point. What matters (well, to me, at least) isn't whether m43 enthusiasts should stop saying that their 25mm 1.4 = 50mm 1.4 FF, but the extent to which you can approximate on an m43 the photos you take with, say, a FF Canon, and how the whole experience of taking the photos compares. To the extent you can approximate, the weight comparisons posted above retain their point (give or take a lens or two). To the extent you can't, the question becomes whether the difference in image quality is offset by the differences in weight, ergonomics, etc. I can't remember what prompted me to rent an E-M5 (skepticism, probably), but I was amazed by close the images it makes can get when using the better m43 primes (sometimes barely distinguishable, if at all, all aided by such factors as superior IS and focusing accuracy for static subjects); I wouldn't have bought one otherwise. 

But don't tell this to a dslr owner who hasn't used a top-of-the-line m43 camera; it makes them mad....


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## Pi (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sdsr said:


> That may all be true, even the bit about making m43-only owners mad (I have two FF Canons and an Olympus E-M5, so I'm not in that category and don't know anyone who is), but I think it misses the point. What matters (well, to me, at least) isn't whether m43 enthusiasts should stop saying that their 25mm 1.4 = 50mm 1.4 FF, but the extent to which you can approximate on an m43 the photos you take with, say, a FF Canon, and how the whole experience of taking the photos compares. To the extent you can approximate, the weight comparisons posted above retain their point (give or take a lens or two).



Actually, no. You can also "approximate" what brighter lenses can do on the same format, by using slower lenses, like the 40mm. You do not "approximate", you just accept the results as good enough for your specific purposes. There is also the mirrorless factor which helps with wide primes but the latter is not restricted to m43 as of this week. 

Now, if you really want to approximate (what a lowly f/4 zoom on FF can do), you buy some monster like the Olympus 14-35mm f/2.0. It is $800 more expensive that the already overpriced 24-70/4 IS, not to mention the 24-105, and 50% heavier, and larger. Or, you buy the Olympus 35-100mm f/2.0. It is an 1.65kg monster selling for $2.5K only. The Canon 70-200/4 IS weighs and costs less than half of that and is even smaller. The m43 fans would tell you: those are f/2 zooms, show me an f/2 FF zoom. Well, unless you print that f/2 on your photos, they are f/4 equivalent zooms. 



> To the extent you can't, the question becomes whether the difference in image quality is offset by the differences in weight, ergonomics, etc.



I agree with that, but this is a different topic. Most normal people would agree that the difference in IQ bewteen their cell phone and a dSLR is not worth it.


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## sdsr (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> I just don't see the point of buying 17.3 x 13mm system anymore.



I do, provided size/weight matters - it's still the best affordable compact system. As far as I can tell there are no pre-existing really small FF Sony or Minolta lenses, prime or zoom, and the new lenses announced for this system aren't small either; and as far as I can tell, there's no such thing as a small FF zoom of any focal length, period (is such a thing physically possible?). So, if you want to retain compactness, you're limited - barring unknown future developments - to whatever small third party lenses you can attach (assuming they work well via adapters - and given how fussy 36mp sensors seem to be (see comments by Roger Cicala et al.), that's quite an assumption).

What's more, Sony has shot itself - or its customers - in the foot by not providing what has hitherto been a major selling point of Sony dslrs: in-body image stabilization. Until now, any lens you attached to a Sony FF digital camera (or aps-c dslr) benefited from image stabilization; unsurprisingly, Sony's A-mount lenses don't have IS - they don't need it. That's all changed now, of course, so in situations where IS is needed, unless you add a third party lens with IS or wait and buy new Sony lenses with IS, you'll need to use a tripod (as a tip-off, Sony adds a tripod mount to the adapter you'll need to attach A-mount lenses); and if you're going to use a tripod, there goes the size advantage and then some. 

If these cameras had IS and an A-mount, I would pre-order one too (I wouldn't care if that required them to be a bit bigger; for me, size is the least of the advantages of ditching the mirror). Instead, I'll wait and see if Sony makes a mirrorless FF A mount camera (at least one A mount camera will allegedly be announced early next year). Until then, my Canon FFs and Olympus m43 will do just nicely....


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## sdsr (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Pi said:


> sdsr said:
> 
> 
> > What matters (well, to me, at least) isn't whether m43 enthusiasts should stop saying that their 25mm 1.4 = 50mm 1.4 FF, but the extent to which you can approximate on an m43 the photos you take with, say, a FF Canon, and how the whole experience of taking the photos compares. To the extent you can approximate, the weight comparisons posted above retain their point (give or take a lens or two).
> ...



I think this has become a disagreement over use of "approximate". You seem to be looking for a lens that's a mechanical exact equivalent (I'm familiar with the lenses you're referring to above and I don't disagree with your point). I was using it in the sense of "closely resembling" - I was referring to the resulting images, not how you achieve them - not "exactly the same". For instance, although we're often told that m43 isn't good for shallow focus/background blur (this matters to me as I like taking very close-up "portraits" of flowers and other small things with blurred-out backgrounds), I've been pleasantly surprised by just how easy it is to conjure it up with the right combination of lens and relative distances. If I put the Olympus 60mm macro lens on my E-M5, I can create, say, flower portraits that look similar to flower portraits taken with my 100mm L on my 6D or 5DIII (though to get comparable blur I'll have to get closer); the relative weight of the equipment isn't similar at all. That's all I meant. (If I thought they looked *the same* I wouldn't keep the heavy FF stuff.)


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## Pi (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

If you forget for a moment about the format differences, it is 2 stops. We all know what that means. Sometimes it matters little, sometimes - a lot. That was my point. 

Of course, the size would be different, not always in favor of the smaller sensor; and the price would be different - again, not always in favor of the smaller sensor. The m43 system have many more lenses designed for it than the Canon/Nikon crop systems but the good ones are very expensive for their _equivalent _ apertures.

Another difference: f/3.4 on FF would be much sharper than the eq. f/1.7 on m43, and then you have all those problems with microlens vignetting at fast apertures.


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## Dylan777 (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sdsr said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > I just don't see the point of buying 17.3 x 13mm system anymore.
> ...



I take a lot of photo with my 5D III + 50L + 85L II + 24-70 II. Is there an "IS" on any of these?


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## sdsr (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> sdsr said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



I wrote "in situations where IS is needed". If you never need it and wouldn't benefit from it, well, good for you. Either way, the size issue remains - just how much difference does the body size make if you're using something as big and heavy as the 85LII or 24-70 II, and what would the ergonomics be like of attaching one of those to a small body?


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## Dylan777 (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sdsr said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > sdsr said:
> ...



At least, you and I have this in common. I hate it, therefore, I'll get some Zeiss FE primes: 14,16 or 17mm, 55mm, and 85mm. That's all I need in compact system.

Everything else: 5D III + 24-70 II, 135L, 70-200 and 300mm f2.8 IS II (maybe x2 TC).


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## Pi (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sdsr said:


> What's more, Sony has shot itself - or its customers - in the foot by not providing what has hitherto been a major selling point of Sony dslrs: in-body image stabilization.



A very good point, the m43 system has IS in their current bodies.


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## seacritter (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Pi said:


> seacritter said:
> 
> 
> > If you do a bunch of macro, a smaller sensor is preferred. Just for the dof. I've been shooting with the Mark II for a while. I just switched my macro work to the GF6 with the 60mm macro. The extended dof is really welcome.
> ...



The larger the sensor the shallower the depth of field. Yes, aperture controls dof, but we start off with dof because of sensor size. You can get a shallow dof with a point-and-shoot, but only extended out all the way with the smallest aperture that it has. On the other side, the dof on a medium format is always incredibly shallow. This is just physics...


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## Pi (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



seacritter said:


> Pi said:
> 
> 
> > seacritter said:
> ...



It is mostly wrong, sorry. Sensor size can determine how shallow DOF you can get with a lens made on this planet but sensor size does not limit you how deep DOF you can get. The latter is limited by diffraction.


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## moreorless (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> If Canon released a high resolution, high DR, full frame sensor in a small and light package _(similar to the EOS SL1) _at an affordable price _(Not Leica or 1D price tag)_, I would be all over it!
> 
> But let's face it. They won't.
> 
> ...



Two different issues there really, I can understand buying the Sony for maximum image quality from your existing lenses but I wouldn't rule out Canon(or Nikon) releasing a smaller FF DSLR within the next 18 months, its not like this Sony release was a secret.


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## privatebydesign (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



seacritter said:


> The larger the sensor the shallower the depth of field. Yes, aperture controls dof, but we start off with dof because of sensor size. You can get a shallow dof with a point-and-shoot, but only extended out all the way with the smallest aperture that it has. On the other side, the dof on a medium format is always incredibly shallow. This is just physics...



NO NO NO NO NO. I have tried desperately hard to stay out of the thread but that is too much.

DOF is determined by two criteria, f stop and reproduction ratio.

Put the same lens on a crop camera and a ff camera and take a shot from one position, a typical set magnification size macro scenario (1:1, 1:2, etc). Make two prints the same size of your entire two shots and the crop camera print has LESS DOF! The ff shot has a lot more fov but that is not the talking point here. Sensor size is only relevant in dof figures to work out reproduction magnification, in and of itself sensor size is irrelevant.

Please read the secion marked *Relationship of DOF to format size* here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field


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## AvTvM (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Don't care what it's called as long as i get more background blur and more main subject pop at a certain focal length and aperture, distance lens to attractive subject and distance subject to obnoxious, ugly background. Which means i'd rather drop dead than buying another aps-c camera or even worse a thumbnail sized micro thirds camera. Now, when there are finally 36 delivious millions of pixels available in a small package. 

And if more dof is needed, i'm going to close down the aperture all the way to f/11 on a full- bore sensored- camera rather than being limited to f/5.6 on a quarter-sized sensor for fear of freakin' diffraction.

So much for dof in my shooting.


----------



## Rocguy (Oct 19, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Anybody want to buy my 6D body? 

This, especially the A7r, seriously interests me. Seriously. 8)


----------



## JEL (Oct 20, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> Operator error maybe?



If it is, then only the mirrorless seemed to notice  

A sensor that isn't covered by its mirror, all things being equal, obviously will gather dust much faster than a sensor only exposed for the short moments the mirror is switched up.


----------



## NormanBates (Oct 20, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

If you're going to compare which camera will give you shallower DoF, you have to do it for a given FoV. It makes no sense to compare different pictures (say, a portrait and a medium shot).

If you had to take a portrait, and could use different cameras, what would DoF be like on each of them? Well, it depends on sensor size and f-stop. Period.
The following options will give you exactly the same picture, in terms of FoV, DoF, exposure
* 50mm lens set at f/5.6, 1/50s and ISO 1600 on a full frame camera 
* 31mm lens set at f/3.5, 1/50s and ISO 600 on an APS-C camera 
In all three cases, field of view, depth of field and exposure will be absolutely identical. And also compression, face distortion because of perspective, size of out-of-focus highlights... The images will be basically identical, except for whatever differences in sharpness and detail the different sensors and lenses introduce.

Proof here:
http://www.similaar.com/foto/doftest/doftest.html


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## verysimplejason (Oct 20, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rocguy said:


> Anybody want to buy my 6D body?
> 
> This, especially the A7r, seriously interests me. Seriously. 8)



After using their A77 and the 6D, I'd gladly buy your camera for the right price. Only problem might be is I don't know where you are. I'm here in Malaysia as an expat.


----------



## Pi (Oct 20, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



NormanBates said:


> If you're going to compare which camera will give you shallower DoF, you have to do it for a given FoV. It makes no sense to compare different pictures (say, a portrait and a medium shot).
> 
> If you had to take a portrait, and could use different cameras, what would DoF be like on each of them? Well, it depends on sensor size and f-stop. Period.
> The following options will give you exactly the same picture, in terms of FoV, DoF, exposure
> ...



That would be an evidence, not a proof , but there is no FF shot on that page, and no 31/3.5 on crop?


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## drjlo (Oct 20, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Finally, a review of Sony A7r with sample photo's that look like the specs say they should, with both Zeiss FE 35 mm and 55 mm. 

http://briansmith.com/sony-a7r-field-test/


----------



## Pi (Oct 21, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



drjlo said:


> Finally, a review of Sony A7r with sample photo's that look like the specs say they should, with both Zeiss FE 35 mm and 55 mm.
> 
> http://briansmith.com/sony-a7r-field-test/



Thank you for posting this. Very interesting photos but those neon colors and harsh processing do not give a good impression of what this setup can do.


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## ahab1372 (Oct 21, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



privatebydesign said:


> seacritter said:
> 
> 
> > The larger the sensor the shallower the depth of field. Yes, aperture controls dof, but we start off with dof because of sensor size. You can get a shallow dof with a point-and-shoot, but only extended out all the way with the smallest aperture that it has. On the other side, the dof on a medium format is always incredibly shallow. This is just physics...
> ...


Yes, for the same shooting distance you are right, for the same framing however, FF needs longer lens or or shorter distance, resulting in a shallower DOF. I think that is what most people mean, even if they don't have the correct explanation


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Oct 21, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Apparently Nikon is slated to announce a Full Frame mirror less in less than a month which is a very interesting/nice development ... I really wanted Canon/Nikon to come up with a full frame DSLR coz I'd feel a lot more comfortable in investing in Nikon gear than Sony ... but if Canon does not announce something similar I'll happily buy the Nikon FF mirrorless ... but if Canon announces one before the Nikon is available for purchase I'll wait for Canon ... and I don't really care if its a retro design or not as long as it is relatively small size with small prime lenses ... putting zoom lenses or bigger lenses on mirror less cameras defeats the purpose of "small form factor" ... I'm also hoping the Nikon version will have better battery performance then the Sony.


----------



## EchoLocation (Oct 21, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

the Nikon rumor is extremely exciting. Nikon's current sensors are pretty awesome, and having the 16mp D4 sensor in a small size would be a real gift from Nikon, especially if it is a reasonable price! 
I know others disagree, but personally I love Nikon's lens lineup too. They have great colors, decent prices, some interesting exotics, nice vintage pieces, and perform pretty well. Having their lens lineup, sensor performance, AF, all with a smaller form factor would be awesome!!!
I hope Canon has something to counter these new cameras soon! the more competition the better!


----------



## drjlo (Oct 21, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



EchoLocation said:


> the Nikon rumor is extremely exciting. Nikon's current sensors are pretty awesome, and having the 16mp D4 sensor in a small size would be a real gift from Nikon, especially if it is a reasonable price!


Well, apparently the Nikon will not be mirrorless and will have a pentaprism, with standard F mount. Weight will be 765g, so it's not going to be very small, either. 

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/10/20/update-the-new-full-frame-retro-nikon-camera-will-have-f-mount-and-pentaprism.aspx/#more-65640


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## Ricku (Oct 21, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Nikon, Canon.. They are in the same boat. Terrified of making a high end mirrorless. 

Sony and Fuji will continue to eat their lunch.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Oct 21, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> Nikon, Canon.. They are in the same boat. Terrified of making a high end mirrorless.
> 
> Sony and Fuji will continue to eat their lunch.


Yeah right! :


----------



## ptortora (Oct 21, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I've been a Canon loyalist for many years and I currently shoot a portion of my work with a 1DX and a 5DIII. Although I'm very pleased with both of those bodies, I do feel Canon needs to step up their game. Seems to me that they are falling behind more and more (sensors, dynamic range, slow development of other formats such as mirroless, etc...). I've used D800's, Hasselblad H4's and Phase One in addition to my Canons. When you get a taste of the extended dynamic range, the magic of their tonality (especially from the medium format sensors) and the ability to crop, you get spoiled by what those products have to offer (in my opinion). As stated in this post by so many other Canon users, I too will be ordering a Sony A7R as I feel it will bring mirrorless a large leap forward and I like Sony's comprehensive commitment to the format (15 lenses by 2015, etc) and their aggressiveness. I wish it was Canon offering such a product but once again, it appears that they are at the tail end so for me, the days of product loyalty are becoming less and less important. Naturally, it's all about the image first, the technology is just the means to the end, but it sure was convenient during the days of old when you could lean on one of the major brands to get there. At this point, it's too early to tell if Sony's new announcements will live up to the hype but if it does, Sony should up their market share amongst serious enthusiasts and professionals. Hats off to Sony!


----------



## SiliconVoid (Oct 21, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Sad so many people today think every new model has to have the latest gadget in order to be functional - and then base superiority on whether another manufacturer has the same gadgets in their new model.
It really does not matter what some 3rd party service says about sensor performance, especially when the measurement data is taken out of the camera before it is processed and does not represent the data the user would ever have access to. The reality is that in the field it is function, ergonomics and experience that allow you to get the image - not one more stop of DR or more MP.. To that end you still see more Canon equipment in the field than any other manufacturer.

In reading comments here and other forums regarding the new Sony body, I do not think people realize how crappy AF performance is going to be using other lenses than the new Sony lenses.. That realization along with the plethora of older 3rd party lenses will mean - manual focusing - which is even crappier using an EVF.. Mirrorless bodies are neat and all, certainly a means of access to more lenses than any one manufacturer ever dreamed of, but it is of limited benefit and not a functional substitute for an OVF and dedicated AF sensor.

As for the excitement over body size... all any manufacturer needs to do is drop pop-up flashes, drop 3.x" displays, drop the gadgetry that provides no benefit to actual photography (GPS, WiFi, etc) and maybe even ditch video recording (though that does not effect camera size other than another button, but is less than ideal with a ~2" lcd) and there would be plenty of room to shrink the body size around a FF sensor, mirror, and OVF.

In reality it is the average consumer today wanting any gadget they think will take the photo for them and tell everyone else they were there that prevents manufacturers from producing small foot print DSLRs - - NOT the current technology.


----------



## sandymandy (Oct 23, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Canon plz we are waiting omg omg omg omg omg omg


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## J.R. (Oct 23, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sandymandy said:


> Canon plz we are waiting omg omg omg omg omg omg



Haha ... I though am not too keen on the A7R. This MP monster will need the best of the best lenses and exceptionally good shooting technique. A tripod may also be necessary which makes the smaller form factor irrelevant. It could very well end up like the D-800E with users as frustrated and emotional as the lady in your photograph ;D 

I'm not too sure you'll be able to extract the best out of the A7R with lenses that are used with adapters. The use of an adapter will deteriorate lens performance which, even if very slight, will result in a hit on the IQ. Unless Sony matches these cameras with exceptional native lenses, I don't see the A7R going anywhere.


----------



## J.R. (Oct 23, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



bassfield said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > sandymandy said:
> ...



I much rather believe Roger's take on that - 

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters



> In the examples above, though, center resolution is pretty much unchanged, it’s only when you get away from center that you start to see issues. So someone shooting portraits and centered subjects is unlikely to notice an issue. A landscape photographer, though, would likely see some problems along the edges of the image.
> 
> Putting a great lens on your camera via an adapter might still be better than an average native-mount lens. On the other hand, that great lens certainly wouldn’t be as good as it would be on its native-mount camera.



: :


----------



## CarlTN (Oct 23, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I am very underwhelmed by this new Sony full frame mirrorless camera announcement. Agree with others who wonder if you could make use of the 36 MP on such a camera. 

Frankly only committed landscape photographers can make full use of high resolution images, where the entire frame is sharp. Certainly there's no "crop advantage" to higher resolution sensors, unless that is the kind of photography you're doing. Otherwise your DOF is not deep enough...only part of the image is making full use of the resolution (if even that). This means a heavy tripod always being used, cable release or some kind of remote delay, etc. How many of the above Sony enthusiats who are so lady gaga over this new Sony, are going to shoot that way? I say very few. As for the DR of the sensor...I get plenty with my Canon. If I need more, there's always multi-shot HDR. But my Canon's sensor does something only perhaps the D4's sensor does...deliver very low noise in the highly desired ISO range between 1000 and 10,000. The D800's sensor can't begin to do that, not at the pixel level anyway. Downsampling doesn't count because if you do that, suddenly that high rez sensor isn't so high rez anymore.

Not saying Canon shouldn't strive for sensor improvement, but to eagerly pine over an overpriced toy like this Sony mirrorless camera, is folly. It's a halo product meant to empty the pockets of those who have deep ones, just like the RX1. Currently the price has come down to the $2400 range at B&H. YAWN.....


----------



## J.R. (Oct 23, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



CarlTN said:


> It's a halo product meant to empty the pockets of those who have deep ones, just like the RX1. Currently the price has come down to the $2400 range at B&H. YAWN.....



NO! B&H is citing the price as $ 2,798. This is without any OVF or EVF which cost $598 and $448 respectively ... So basically, the price at which you get the RX1 + OVF is $3,396 = OUCH! 

BTW, I have no clue as to why the EVF is cheaper when it is alleged to be WAAAAAY better than the OVF!


----------



## Pi (Oct 23, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

There is crop advantage of high resolution sensors. It is less than many believe, but it is there. In limited reach situations, macro included, it is real. This is what crop cameras are used for, after all. Heavy tripods, etc., are no more needed that they are for crop cameras.


----------



## CarlTN (Oct 25, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> CarlTN said:
> 
> 
> > It's a halo product meant to empty the pockets of those who have deep ones, just like the RX1. Currently the price has come down to the $2400 range at B&H. YAWN.....
> ...



That was the price that came up in my google search...


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## CarlTN (Oct 25, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Pi said:


> There is crop advantage of high resolution sensors. It is less than many believe, but it is there. In limited reach situations, macro included, it is real. This is what crop cameras are used for, after all. Heavy tripods, etc., are no more needed that they are for crop cameras.



But a crop camera only uses the middle, where the lens is sharpest. If reach advantage is all you want, certainly use a crop camera. The "crop flexibility" is what I was talking about...of having 36 MP on full frame. How many of your wildlife telephoto shots are going to use the resolution down to the pixel level of the sensor...outside of the center of the image, on a full frame camera? I say none. Show me one if you disagree. Make it a D800E image done with a telephoto lens longer than 200mm, where post sharpening of half pixel radius (and a value under 35 to 40) actually adds detail rather than noisy scribbly artifacts...to that image in the outer periphery outside the 1.5x crop image area.

As for macro shots...the only way to get a truly sharp macro shot, from corner to corner of the image, is with focus stacking...which is cheating.


----------



## sdsr (Oct 26, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



verysimplejason said:


> After using their A77 and the 6D, I'd gladly buy your camera for the right price. Only problem might be is I don't know where you are. I'm here in Malaysia as an expat.



I'm not sure what you didn't like about the A77, but a huge problem with Sony's fixed translucent mirror cameras, such as the A77 and the FF A99, is that less light reaches the sensor, which presumably explains in large part why the resulting images are so noisy. One reason why I was interested in the A7, before I learned that unlike all previous Sony A cameras it would have no IBIS, was the prospect of trying some highly regarded Minolta lenses and I decided to stick my toe in the water a couple of days ago by buying the entry level A58 (it nevertheless gets rave reviews in some quarters) and a Minolta 50mm prime, but was so appalled by the noise (even at ISO 400 you wouldn't want to crop much) that I returned it the next day (noise is a problem with the A99 too, I understand, though obviously to a lesser extent). The A77 is doubtless a better camera in other ways, but it was a huge relief to return to my Olympus OM-D, 6D and 5DIII (and not just because of the image quality). Whatever other flaws the A7 may have, presumably such noise isn't one of them.


----------



## sdsr (Oct 26, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> Don't care what it's called as long as i get more background blur and more main subject pop at a certain focal length and aperture, distance lens to attractive subject and distance subject to obnoxious, ugly background. Which means i'd rather drop dead than buying another aps-c camera or even worse a thumbnail sized micro thirds camera. Now, when there are finally 36 delivious millions of pixels available in a small package.
> 
> And if more dof is needed, i'm going to close down the aperture all the way to f/11 on a full- bore sensored- camera rather than being limited to f/5.6 on a quarter-sized sensor for fear of freakin' diffraction.
> 
> So much for dof in my shooting.



While it may be true that it's easier to blur out backgrounds using a FF camera, many seem to underestimate what you can achieve with said "thumbnail" M43 sensors. Here are a couple of photos (JPEGs unaltered, aside from size, from the camera; haven't had time to process the raw files yet) I took walking home from work a couple of days ago with my Olympus OM-D E-M5 + Olympus 75mm. The beet colored mass is a row of large coleus plants growing in planters along a narrow busy street in the middle of Philadelphia, the green in the background is from trees lining the street a block away, the grays are a department store, the circles are streetlights, traffic, etc. But you might not immediately know from the first one, shot at 1.8. You can see a bit more easily in the second photo, shot at 2.8. And if you go here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157636955871633/

you'll see some photos I took with the same camera and the Olympus 45mm 1.8 lens in a liquor store a couple of months ago while waiting for the other half to finish shopping. Not the ultimate in blur, perhaps, but not bad for a thumbnail....


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## Pi (Oct 26, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sdsr said:


> While it may be true that it's easier to blur out backgrounds using a FF camera, many seem to underestimate what you can achieve with said "thumbnail" M43 sensors.



You can get background blur with a cellphone camera as well, if you focus real close.


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## CarlTN (Oct 26, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Pi said:


> sdsr said:
> 
> 
> > While it may be true that it's easier to blur out backgrounds using a FF camera, many seem to underestimate what you can achieve with said "thumbnail" M43 sensors.
> ...



I once commented to my friend that I liked the bokeh of one of his shots, and he laughed and said "you like the bokeh of the iPhone"? I said, "yes...I should sell all my camera gear now!"


----------



## l_d_allan (Oct 27, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Roger Cicala at LensRentals wrote an interesting article about:
"There Is No Free Lunch, Episode 763: Lens Adapters"
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters

Overall, he notes that any adapter will detract from image quality. He was writing about non-optical adapters that are hollow.

In the subsequent blog comments, the question came up about Sony adapters for the A7 series. My reading is that you could count of some image quality degradation. 

How much? The article wasn't encouraging, but it depends on your expectations. It certainly put a damper on this Canon owner's interest with a significant investment in FF EF L lenses. YMMV.

I couldn't tell if the Sony adapters were optical (with one or more lenses) or hollow, and functioning as a "pass-thru" for electrical signals. Maybe I didn't read the article closely enough.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Nov 29, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Watch from 0.50 to 1.10 mins and from 15.25 mins ;D
Sony A7 vs. A7R Hands-on Review


----------



## LightandMotion (Dec 2, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

There is no loss of IQ that I can tell
My initial impressions of the A7R with the metabones adaptor and canon glass:

http://www.lightandmotionphotography.com/section467038_273521.html


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Dec 2, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



SiliconVoid said:


> Sad so many people today think every new model has to have the latest gadget in order to be functional - and then base superiority on whether another manufacturer has the same gadgets in their new model.
> It really does not matter what some 3rd party service says about sensor performance, especially when the measurement data is taken out of the camera before it is processed and does not represent the data the user would ever have access to. The reality is that in the field it is function, ergonomics and experience that allow you to get the image - not one more stop of DR or more MP.. To that end you still see more Canon equipment in the field than any other manufacturer.
> 
> In reading comments here and other forums regarding the new Sony body, I do not think people realize how crappy AF performance is going to be using other lenses than the new Sony lenses.. That realization along with the plethora of older 3rd party lenses will mean - manual focusing - which is even crappier using an EVF.. Mirrorless bodies are neat and all, certainly a means of access to more lenses than any one manufacturer ever dreamed of, but it is of limited benefit and not a functional substitute for an OVF and dedicated AF sensor.



I don't think you realize that people are not going to dump their 1DX for sports for the A7R they are just desperate to get more MP and DR from some scenarios and this A7R will allow that, using Canon lenses, for tripod-based, slow, landscape work where none of that stuff you go on about is the end of the world. Would it be nicer to have the sensor in a 5D3 body, of course, but Canon doesn't make it and at least this ties one over a little longer and lets you get certain types of shots just fine.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Dec 2, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> sandymandy said:
> 
> 
> > Canon plz we are waiting omg omg omg omg omg omg
> ...



Early reports coming in are that the Canon lenses are doing just fine on it and that people are getting sharper results at the edges with 24-70 II on it than a native 24-70 nikkor on a D800. Early reports have been very positive as to how all sorts of Canon lenses are working out on it.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Dec 2, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



CarlTN said:


> I am very underwhelmed by this new Sony full frame mirrorless camera announcement. Agree with others who wonder if you could make use of the 36 MP on such a camera.
> 
> Frankly only committed landscape photographers can make full use of high resolution images, where the entire frame is sharp. Certainly there's no "crop advantage" to higher resolution sensors, unless that is the kind of photography you're doing. Otherwise your DOF is not deep enough...only part of the image is making full use of the resolution (if even that). This means a heavy tripod always being used, cable release or some kind of remote delay, etc. How many of the above Sony enthusiats who are so lady gaga over this new Sony, are going to shoot that way? I say very few.



Oh come 36MP is not THAT high on FF. It's lower density than APS-C has been for ages and people whip off 100% crisp shots hand-held on those plenty often enough all the time.

not sure what you mean by the crop advantage thing, why wouldn't you get more pixels per duck with it? (assuming fast enough shutter and proper focus, granted this camera, with the AF, there are many wildlife shots where it might be a bit rougher going, although you could certainly pull it off at times no doubt although in not quite as a painless and ideal fashion)


----------



## Traktor (Dec 4, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I think what Sony have done is brilliant. In Australia, Sony are offering a free metabones adapter by redemption. I have too many lenses to consider a switch to Nikon and there is no way a Nikon mount could ever take a Canon lens, but with the Sony I can get an A7R and use my existing lenses with it. Of course the autofocus is slow, so for certain things I would keep my 5D2 and 24-105 combo at least initially.
If the E mount 24-70 F4 lens is a good one (and you would expect it will be) when funds allow I would get that as a walkaround, with my other lenses to be used for slow landscape/tripod work as mentioned by someone else above. The 5D2 would then be sold.

They have given me an option that doesn't involve thousands of dollars to change systems straight away. I can keep a foot in either camp and simply buy the most appropriate body at the time. If Sony keep producing brilliant Zeiss lenses for the system AND stay ahead in the body/sensor game, then eventually I'll end up with more native lenses. And just like that, Sony have converted me.

I'm not sure that there would be many people who would be looking at a $2300 36 megapixel camera as their first camera purchase. The target market are going to be enthusiasts and professionals who would already be heavily invested in either the Canon or Nikon systems. Therefore this is a smart move by Sony, who realised they would have to do something different to get CaNikon users to switch.

When you think about it, an A7R with a 24-70 will cost only fractionally more than a D800E body only and take pretty much any lens - sweet!


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 4, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Sold my Nikon D7100 & 18-300 and just ordered the Sony a7 with the kit lens (28-70mm) ... will try to get the metabones EOS adapter ... I stopped buying sony products a very long time ago due abandoned product lines ... hope they keep to their word this time.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 4, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> Sold my Nikon D7100 & 18-300 and just ordered the Sony a7 with the kit lens (28-70mm) ... will try to get the metabones EOS adapter ... I stopped buying sony products a very long time ago due abandoned product lines ... hope they keep to their word this time.



I decided to go down to local Sony store to test out A7. They only have the kit lens 28-70 display with A7. My 1st impression is AWESOME. 

1. AF speed is FAST - I mean from close-up to far away. My 2 cents, you should have no problem shooting subject running across with single shot. The A7 seems to have faster AF than my Fuji x100s - indoor. I was testing at f5.6 etc...on the kit lens. I'm sure Zeiss 35 and 55mm will be better - can't be worst right?

2. Body seems to be very solid - not as my RX1. Maybe A7r

The Electronic view finder and grip make the body thicker. Since they don't have Zeiss FE 55mm(the lens I really want to test-out) in store, the store manager let me use the Sony/Zeiss 50mm crop lens on A7, the weight feels really good. Again, this is crop lens.

The 28-70 kit lens is reallllllllllyyyyyyy light


----------



## Traktor (Dec 4, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Thanks for the pics. I haven't had a chance to look at one yet, but by those pictures it looks as though I will need to get a battery grip, or it will be too small in my hands, like my partners 550D. 
I'm not really interested in compactness and really like the feel of a DSLR in my hands. I've had a look at the 5D3 and it feels superb, but it doesn't have a 36 megapixel 14 stop DR sensor!


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## Dylan777 (Dec 4, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Traktor said:


> Thanks for the pics. I haven't had a chance to look at one yet, but by those pictures it looks as though I will need to get a battery grip, or it will be too small in my hands, like my partners 550D.
> I'm not really interested in compactness and really like the feel of a DSLR in my hands. I've had a look at the 5D3 and it feels superb, but it doesn't have a 36 megapixel 14 stop DR sensor!



WARNING: if you don't like compact body size, STAY AWAY from Sony mirrorless A7 series, RX1, RX100 II ;D

It will be very interesting when Sony/Zeiss releases some FE UWA f4 IS lenses for A7 series. I really think Sony hits a home run on A7 series. Can't wait for what Sony/Zeiss have to offer on lenses up coming years :


----------



## eml58 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sandymandy said:


> Canon plz we are waiting omg omg omg omg omg omg



Hilarious, and unfortunately, too the point.

I think it may be a long wait for a similar piece of gear from Canon, Mirrorless does seem to be something Canon want to be in because everyone else is, but they concentrate on the FF DSLR market and possibly intend to remain that way for some time.

The news on new M disappointed me and I went and purchased the a7r, I like what I see so far, some things I'm not so happy with (The EVF takes some getting used to when you've never used one before), but I feel that way about my 1Dx & 5DMK III as well, but I do think Sony have a reasonable winner in the a7r, it's such a pity they decided to bring it to market with such abysmal support, in Singapore when I picked up the a7r they had just the Zoom Kit lens from Sony, or the Zeiss 35, which is a lovely Lens. I think if you stick to the Zeiss Lenses that will become available for the a7r over the next 12 months or so the Sony becomes a viable system, won't replace the 1Dx in any way, but might replace the 5DMK III.


----------



## Ruined (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I still don't understand who these full frame mirorrless cameras are aimed at, aside from a hobbyist with a lot of money to burn.

-Average consumer, it is too expensive
-Camera-oriented gadget freak, would probably rather have a cameraphone like the Lumia 1020
-Compact camera fan, the zoom lenses are too big to truck around - all these pics don't look much smaller than a 6D w/ lens.
-Professional, would rather have a real DSLR with viewfinder through lens, more physical buttons, big lens selection, bigger body to grip

So what is left for this camera? Hobbyists with a lot of cash? I guess that is the market they are going for.


----------



## RobertP (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ruined said:


> I still don't understand who these full frame mirorrless cameras are aimed at, aside from a hobbyist with a lot of money to burn.
> 
> -Average consumer, it is too expensive
> -Camera-oriented gadget freak, would probably rather have a cameraphone like the Lumia 1020
> ...


So the same people that buy 70Ds and 6Ds then. You'd never catch Canon testing the market with a new camera and lens mount *koff" EOS M *koff*. The A7 seems to have had a successful launch. If it keeps going then new lenses and new bodies will follow.


----------



## Zv (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I recently had a play about with an A7 in a store. Seems like a nice, medium sized camera. Decent weight to it and solid build. The only issue I had with it was the EVF. I don't think I could get used to it. It's not as "instant" as OVF. There's a small but noticeable lag, you know you're looking at a screen. Maybe I'm just not used to it but I also don't think it would be all that great for any real demanding work. I guess a lot of landscapers won't care about EVF though.

Do Mirrorless cameras need EVF?? Seems to me if you're gonna view the live image you might as well do it on the larger, clearer and better LCD on the back. I love Magic Lantern's "magic zoom" function on the EOS M. Seriously awesome feature. Don't miss the viewfinder all that much. 

Also not related but it was lying next to the A7 was the Nikon Df. Has anyone else tried moving those dials with one hand?? Impossible! They're all locked with a metal pin that you push down, it's a two handed affair!! All advantage of dials LOST! Fail.


----------



## weixing (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Hi,
Try out the Sony 7R... quite like the build and the design, but don't like to the EVF (especially in low light) and also the shutter release... the first time I press the shutter, I thought something had fallen off the camera...  I still prefer the feel of my 6D silent shutter.

Have a nice day.


----------



## EchoLocation (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ruined said:


> I still don't understand who these full frame mirorrless cameras are aimed at, aside from a hobbyist with a lot of money to burn.
> 
> -Average consumer, it is too expensive
> -Camera-oriented gadget freak, would probably rather have a cameraphone like the Lumia 1020
> ...


I bought one. i'm a 32 year old who has been in to photography since learning in a darkroom in the early 90's with my mom's old Minolta.
For years, i was dissatisfied with digital cameras because of their poor image quality and generally stayed away. In 2008 I bought a top of the line Sony Cyber Shot for a 3 month backpacking trip to South America. In 2010 I was in Hong Kong traveling and finally bought a Canon DSLR. I was excited to have better image quality. i was never happy with APS-C, the crop factor, and always wanted the best low light abilities. I traveled for about 10 months using the 550D and taking tons of photos.
After I finished traveling I wanted something to better suit my 24-105 lens, so I traded up to a used 5DC but it always seemed a little antiquated(terrible AF and back screen.)
So, I bought a used D700 and 24-70 2.8 for the AF and image quality. It was simply amazing, but after traveling in Japan for a month last year, my shoulders and back were sore every day from hanging 5 pounds around my neck and shoulders for 8 to 10 hours a day of walking around and sightseeing. Additionally, I like to carry a camera in my bag and when I walk to my work, or come home I like to take some pictures. This is at night and poor image quality annoys me, but my D700 took up my WHOLE backpack and made it a chore to carry, the opposite of fun.
So, I have been eagerly awaiting something that offers top of the line image quality, but in a size that doesn't hurt my shoulders and back. Something that is manageable.
Sure, my D700 is fantastic, and If I had to have the best chance of getting the picture, i'd use that(mostly because of the AF and great ergonomics), but, I simply never carried it in my bag, so I was never able to use it.
If I go to local game, or I just want to go out for a few hour and shoot some pictures, I can use my D700 no problem. but for carrying daily in my backpack, backpacking, hiking, or for my wife, the a7 is 1000x times better.
I don't make money on my photos... but I do enjoy doing it. And I could never say I enjoyed carrying my D700 around.
i bought my a7 last week. I got a small very high quality case for it and it now sits in my backpack every day.
When I go to work, or go out, I ALWAYS have it now. I don't even notice it's in my bag. 
So now, photography can be a fun hobby for me again, instead of a (literally) pain in the neck, back and shoulders.

And, this is saying nothing about how AWESOME the a7 is at manual focusing. This is something I loved about my early days but had totally lost using DSLRs. I Love slowing down a little bit, composing my shots, using focus peaking and magnification and focusing myself! Despite it's small size, the a7 does have all the manual controls, knobs and buttons of a normal DSLR. The layout and programmable buttons are far easier and more useful to me than the D700 or 5DC. The Sony a7 is the closest thing to the old school shooting experience I have seen outside of the Leica. 

In all, I'd say the a7 is for anyone who appreciates having absolute top image quality but doesn't want to carry a huge DSLR. This could be anyone.


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## Zv (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



EchoLocation said:


> Ruined said:
> 
> 
> > I still don't understand who these full frame mirorrless cameras are aimed at, aside from a hobbyist with a lot of money to burn.
> ...



I also enjoy the odd manual focusing only I went the cheaper route of -

EOS M + FD adaptor + $90 Canon FD 50 1.4 (found on ebay) + Magic Lantern. 

I also have zebras and focus peaking and manual only fun but for a fraction of the cost. Sure it's not FF but with a few tweeks in LR images come out just fine.

Just sayin.

Seems a bit strange to buy a $1500 digital camera just to use it as a manual focus only camera. Are you planning on buying additional E mount lenses with it?

Tell you what, have a look at this set of images I took. Some were with the EOM & 22mm f/2 and others were with my 5D2 & ... well if I told you that it would make it too easy. Try and see which ones are which! 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/zanjum/sets/72157637909346605/


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## AvTvM (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



EchoLocation said:


> In all, I'd say the a7 is for anyone who appreciates having absolute top image quality but doesn't want to carry a huge DSLR. This could be anyone.



+1 exactly! 


Sony A7/R compared to Canon EOS 6D (smallest Canon FF-DSLR)

Sony A7R + FE 24-70/4 OSS (SonyZeiss) = 895 g 
Canon 6D + EF 24-70/4 IS = 1370 g
Size comparison: http://j.mp/1dDS5hu

Sony A7R + FE 35/2.8 = 527 g
Canon 6D + EF 40/2.8 = 900 g
Size comparison: http://j.mp/1dliIKV


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## Ruined (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I don't see from your pictures, with lens attached, how a 3% reduction in depth and 10% reduction width turns a dslr from 'huge' into compact. If anything it looks like it would take up nearly the same amount of space with lens in the bag but have an inferior grip. Less weight is nice, but when you are talking 900g vs 550g with lens, I think even the weakest person would be okay with either.

on the other hand, slap a 70-200 f/2.8 on both and I think you will see the ergonomics of the a7 fail big time!


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## Albi86 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ruined said:


> I don't see from your pictures, with lens attached, how a 3% reduction in depth and 10% reduction width turns a dslr from 'huge' into compact. If anything it looks like it would take up nearly the same amount of space with lens in the bag but have an inferior grip. Less weight is nice, but when you are talking 900g vs 550g with lens, I think even the weakest person would be okay with either.
> 
> on the other hand, slap a 70-200 f/2.8 on both and I think you will see the ergonomics of the a7 fail big time!



Maybe a 70-200/2.8 is not the go-to lens for everybody? Most of my shots are either <100mm (95%) or >200mm (5%). I'm keeping my DSLR for use with telezooms, but I'm happily in the process of swapping my other lenses for an a7 body and I preordered the Zeiss 24-70/4. 

EchoLocation has nailed it perfectly. Hike up and down mountains for a whole day and see if you don't notice the difference - and it has nothing to do with physical strength, since you don't hike naked holding an empty backpack.

It might not reflect your own priorities, but for many people it has been a blessing. I don't know why in this forum people think that their experiences/preferences must be the rule for the whole world.


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## LightandMotion (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Been shooting all week with it now. Dynamic range over a stop better than my 1dx. Noise is similar. 

Summary from a Canon Landscape Photographer

Sony A7R Cons:

- Needs battery grip to balance EF lenses properly.
- Slow autofocus with Metabones Adaptor. One shot AF is slow and AI servo is not accurate.
- Only 4 fps, so not suitable for sport 
- Battery charger not included. The battery charges from either an AC or USB source, in camera. Separate charger is $79. If you have a battery grip and don’t have a separate charger, you need to remove the grip and place individual batteries in the camera body to charge.

Sony A7R Pros:

- When used with native FE lenses there is fast and accurate AF. It is a perfect setup for street photography. Remove the grip, and you’re good to go incognito.
- Fantastic Sensor with great dynamic range. Arguably the best of any current DSLR.
- Low noise. ISO up to 51200, still very usable
- 36.4 megapixel sensor – over 50% more than any current Canon DSLR sensor. 
- When used with a grip, EF lenses (up to 100mm) balances well.
- Excellent EVF, Easy to manual focus with focus magnifier
- Customizable buttons and controls.
- Cost $2398.00 AUD – likely to be 1/3 the price of any future large megapixel Canon offering.

In Summary:

A great addition to the kit of any current Canon Landscape Photographer, particularly if your clients favour large prints. You can use all your existing favourite EF lenses, and manual focus is easy and quick. Factor in the cost of a grip, extra battery and an external charger though.


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## AvTvM (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ruined said:


> I don't see from your pictures, with lens attached, how a 3% reduction in depth and 10% reduction width turns a dslr from 'huge' into compact. If anything it looks like it would take up nearly the same amount of space with lens in the bag but have an inferior grip. Less weight is nice, but when you are talking 900g vs 550g with lens, I think even the weakest person would be okay with either.
> 
> on the other hand, slap a 70-200 f/2.8 on both and I think you will see the ergonomics of the a7 fail big time!



yes, I agree to some point. I've deliberately picked the "worst possible view on size".  
In front or rear view one gets a better sense, just how much smaller an A7/R is compared to even the smallest FF DSLR, even with lens mounted. Much less obtrusive too (important to me for street shooting and other situations). 

Main issue are the lenses. Neither Canon nor Sony have the kind of pancakes/ultracompact lenses to go "small and light" - sole exception the EF 40/2.8 which I really like. The Sony FE 35/2.8 is ok for me sizewise, but not pricewise [not even with Zeiss written on it]. Unfortunately no wide angle pancake (e.g. 20/4) or ultra-compact tele (e.g. 85/2.8) on either side (yet). 

70-200 ... depends. I use it quite a bit tripod mounted ... then it will be just fine on an A7/R with adapter. Hand-held I'll have to try it, once I get my hands on an A7/R. Bigger issue for me is the (apparently) extremely slow AF (if at all working) via adapter ... and in poor light on top. 

Reported A7/R shutter noise irks me as well. Was really hoping for a silent "concert cam". Looks like the mirrorslappin' 5D III in "silent" mode is a better option for that. Too bad!


----------



## Ruined (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> Ruined said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see from your pictures, with lens attached, how a 3% reduction in depth and 10% reduction width turns a dslr from 'huge' into compact. If anything it looks like it would take up nearly the same amount of space with lens in the bag but have an inferior grip. Less weight is nice, but when you are talking 900g vs 550g with lens, I think even the weakest person would be okay with either.
> ...



I see where you are going, and the A7 would be truly smaller with a pancake, but that limits your photography to primes which is not ideal IMO. The size of the FF zooms appear to defeat the purpose of a mirrorless camera, unlike the APS-C mirrorless zooms which actually are quite compact.

In terms of the 70-200 2.8, I struggle with that lens handheld on a rebel, so I don't know how I'd possibly handle it on an a7. I am good with it on the 6d-5d etc though.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



eml58 said:


> Hilarious, and unfortunately, too the point.
> 
> I think it may be a long wait for a similar piece of gear from Canon, Mirrorless does seem to be something Canon want to be in because everyone else is, but they concentrate on the FF DSLR market and possibly intend to remain that way for some time.
> 
> The news on new M disappointed me and I went and purchased the a7r, I like what I see so far, some things I'm not so happy with (The EVF takes some getting used to when you've never used one before), but I feel that way about my 1Dx & 5DMK III as well, but I do think Sony have a reasonable winner in the a7r, it's such a pity they decided to bring it to market with such abysmal support, in Singapore when I picked up the a7r they had just the Zoom Kit lens from Sony, or the Zeiss 35, which is a lovely Lens. I think if you stick to the Zeiss Lenses that will become available for the a7r over the next 12 months or so the Sony becomes a viable system, won't replace the 1Dx in any way, but might replace the 5DMK III.



As of right now, there is no other camera can replace 1D X eml58 ;D

As an owner of 5D III, I do agree with you A7 series is good candicate to replace 5D III in slower shooting. Wedding shooter might be able to get away with just two A7 plus some of these lenses: Zeiss 35mm, 55mm, 85mm, and 135mm. The weight reduction will be HUGE.


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## Random Orbits (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> ...
> 
> yes, I agree to some point. I've deliberately picked the "worst possible view on size".
> In front or rear view one gets a better sense, just how much smaller an A7/R is compared to even the smallest FF DSLR, even with lens mounted. Much less obtrusive too (important to me for street shooting and other situations).
> ...



I picked up a EF 28 f/2.8 IS when it went on sale for 350, and it is much smaller than my other lenses. Only had took a couple snaps to make sure that it was functioning ok and to set the AFMA roughly, but I was impressed by its compact size and IQ. Never tried the EF 40 f/2.8 but it is even smaller. So a set of compact primes (24 f/2.8 IS, 28 f/2.8 IS, 35 f/2 IS, 40) exist for the EOS system. The difference in body size is not that significant to me because it's really lens + camera that matters, and if it doesn't fit in a pocket, then I'll be bringing a camera bag anyway.

The thing that bothers me, is that the lenses being offered for the A7/A7R are slow and expensive. 35 f/2.8, 28-70 (f/4-?), 24-70 f/4, 50 f/1.8... I see the advantages for landscape users like LightandMotion, because he can get a high IQ FF sensor at a good price and does not need AF. And those that have lots of vintage glass can use them with appropriate adaptors, but how big are these market segments? The slower lenses allow them to be more compact, but restricts their use indoors in ambient light. I'd rather use a 35 f/1.4 at ISO 3200 rather than a 35 f/2.8 at ISO 12800, where noise and DR suffer significantly. And the faster the glass, the larger the lens, and the less advantage the mirrorless system has.

I'm all for mirrorless versions of the 5D, 6D, etc in due time. Without a physical shutter, the sync speed and frame rate can increase. Focus peaking will be nice but only if the EVF reaches the quality/responsiveness of the OVF. More MP in smaller packages with higher frame rates will require more processing power, and battery chemistry has not changed. It's not surprising that these mirrorless offerings have abysmal battery life' they're using the same technology as DSLRs, their batteries are smaller and the electronics are active all the time. Unfortunately, there aren't any good technologies to replace Li-ion, so the battery will need to be bigger.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



LightandMotion said:


> Sony A7R Cons:
> - Battery charger not included. The battery charges from either an AC or USB source, in camera. Separate charger is $79.



On top of crap battery life, you have to plug the camera in to charge the battery…Sony, WTF?!?


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## Eldar (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



neuroanatomist said:


> LightandMotion said:
> 
> 
> > Sony A7R Cons:
> ...


I´m not sure this is a bad thing. A camera like this will attract a different user community than a 1DX. These users will not fire off high fps series shooting wildlife, birds or sports, but rather use it as a walk around on a vacation, for family arrangements, street photography etc. That will primarily mean single shots and not in the thousands. And they will have easy access to a computer with USB or use the same USB charger they have for their mobile phone, which again requires less hardware and they can charge it every night.

At the moment it does not appeal to me though, but you never know ...

Elm58; It will be interesting to read your views on this camera, when you´ve had it for a while. You seem to be a more extreme user than most


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Eldar said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > LightandMotion said:
> ...



Personally when walking around on vacation, if I'm out walking around, I want my camera with me, and if I'm not out walking around, I'm sleeping. On many vacations, I average well over 300 shots per day - kinda hard on a 200 shot battery, right? When out shooting landscapes/architecture, I use battery power at a faster rate than the number of shots would imply, due to time spent composing, tilting and shifting in Live View.

OTOH, having the ability to charge via USB in addition to a standalone charger is a nice feature, given that there are charging stations in airports, etc. (in fact, in a park in downwotn Boston, there are chairs with solar-powered USB chargers!).


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## Eldar (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



neuroanatomist said:


> Personally when walking around on vacation, if I'm out walking around, I want my camera with me, and if I'm not out walking around, I'm sleeping. On many vacations, I average well over 300 shots per day - kinda hard on a 200 shot battery, right? When out shooting landscapes/architecture, I use battery power at a faster rate than the number of shots would imply, due to time spent composing, tilting and shifting in Live View.


But you´re not the average user, are you


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## Albi86 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



neuroanatomist said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



If you don't mind carrying around a truckload of equipment, surely carrying just an extra battery won't be a deal breaker?


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Eldar said:


> But you´re not the average user, are you



True…but then, I'd say very few 'average users' buy $2300 cameras.


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## Ruined (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Eldar said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Personally when walking around on vacation, if I'm out walking around, I want my camera with me, and if I'm not out walking around, I'm sleeping. On many vacations, I average well over 300 shots per day - kinda hard on a 200 shot battery, right? When out shooting landscapes/architecture, I use battery power at a faster rate than the number of shots would imply, due to time spent composing, tilting and shifting in Live View.
> ...



But, the average user buys a $500 Rebel SL1 or uses their cellphone 

Hence, my questioning of who exactly this camera is designed for. Average folks won't buy it, pros wouldn't depend on it, so all that is left is the wealthy hobbyist category. That is pretty niche IMO.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Eldar said:


> But you´re not the average user, are you



True…but then, I'd say very few 'average users' buy $2300 cameras. 



Albi86 said:


> If you don't mind carrying around a truckload of equipment, surely carrying just an extra battery won't be a deal breaker?



It's not carrying the extra battery, so much as having to use the camera to charge it. If the battery is built in, fine, but for an item with a removeable, rechargeable battery to ship withouth a standalone charger is just annoying. It's more personaly preference than anything - if I shot tethered all the time, being able to plug the camera in without spending extra money for a separate AC adapter would be annoying. 

But there's also this:



LightandMotion said:


> If you have a battery grip and don’t have a separate charger, *you need to remove the grip and place individual batteries in the camera body to charge*.



Does that sound convenient to you? It sounds like a real PITA to me. 



Ruined said:


> But, the average user buys a $500 Rebel SL1 or uses their cellphone
> 
> Hence, my questioning of who exactly this camera is designed for. Average folks won't buy it, pros wouldn't depend on it, so all that is left is the wealthy hobbyist category. That is pretty niche IMO.



Agreed. Anyone thinking the a7R is going to have a major effect on Canon dSLR sales is crazy or under the influence of mind-altering substances.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



neuroanatomist said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > But you´re not the average user, are you
> ...


Carry 1 or 2 extra batteries not going kill you in term of weight neuro. If average user can spend $2300 on a body $79 shouldn't be an issue. I do agree with you Sony should include standard wall charger.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> Carry 1 or 2 extra batteries not going kill you in term of weight neuro.



Not worried about the weight - worried about how many hours I wouldn't be able to use the complex $2300 camera because it was tied up doing the job of a simple, cheap battery charger.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



neuroanatomist said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > Carry 1 or 2 extra batteries not going kill you in term of weight neuro.
> ...


With all respects neuro, you should test drive a7 before we are getting into long discussion here.


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## Eldar (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...


And, looking at your gear list, I suspect you would find the funds to buy a charger and an extra battery


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## Albi86 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



neuroanatomist said:


> It's not carrying the extra battery, so much as having to use the camera to charge it. If the battery is built in, fine, but for an item with a removeable, rechargeable battery to ship withouth a standalone charger is just annoying. It's more personaly preference than anything - if I shot tethered all the time, being able to plug the camera in without spending extra money for a separate AC adapter would be annoying.



I agree with you that not including a battery charger was unelegant. Even more unelegant is selling one for 79$. Seems that sony has stepped up their engineering department but not the marketing guys. However, I imagine third-party units will storm the market pretty soon.

The good news about a battery grip is that it completely discharges 1 battery before touching the other. This is a very good thing, because it means that at the end of the day you won't have 2 half dead batteries.

Anyway the battery life should be >300 shots if you don't keep the LCD on all the time. It's nothing like a good DSLR, but it covers reasonably for 1 day, even more if you have a second battery.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Albi86 said:


> The good news about a battery grip is that it completely discharges 1 battery before touching the other. This is a very good thing, because it means that at the end of the day you won't have 2 half dead batteries.



Interesting! The Canon discharge both batteries during shooting - when I used a (non-integrated) grip, I had four batteries so I could swap both at the end of the day.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ruined said:


> Eldar said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



i think this hits the nail right on the head.


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## Dylan777 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Eldar said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Yes indeed ;D

My recent purchase 300mm drained my photography account really good.


----------



## LightandMotion (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rista Jukku said:


> I read at http://www.sensorgen.info that the same sensor in Nikon D800 has two stops advantage regarding dynamic range compared with 1dx and at 100iso, are you saying that your Sony camera performing differently than the Nikon D800 when it comes to dynamic range?



Never used a D800E. Just a real world comparison side by side on a landscape shoot.


----------



## eml58 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



neuroanatomist said:


> LightandMotion said:
> 
> 
> > Sony A7R Cons:
> ...



Yes, that threw me as well, I spent 10 Minutes ripping the Box apart thinking "no way", but seems Sony found a way.

The other thing that threw me initially was no software out of the Box to handle Files from the Camera, your on your own and that truly is "WTF".

If you shoot RAW your choices are to download some hopeless Sony thing called "SonyHomeWhatever" which only allows you to view your files, crop and make very minor adjustments, but doesn't allow you to save the file in any other format or method, completely useless (This was my experience, there may be software out there that I wasn't able to locate).

Initially LR didn't handle the Sony RAW file from the a7r either, but the new Adobe 5.3 Release fixes that.

I do like the Camera, I feel it has potential in my own case as a back up to the 1Dx, perhaps a replacement for the 5DMK III in some scenarios, But Sony have sort of crippled the release by it's poor management of support gear, Lenses in particular.

In fact I need to clarify my thought re the 1Dx, I don't see the a7r ever being a back up to the 1Dx, what I meant to say was I see the a7r as a reasonable system camera (with some Lenses) to do the things I currently want to do with the 5DMK III, in particular the form factor & the 36MP sensor hopes. My biggest current "don't like" would be the EVF, never used one before and not so keen at this point, time might rectify that, we'll see.

But I'm happier with the a7r than I ever was with the Leica M9, except the Leica Lenses of course, but with the a7r + Zeiss Glass you have best of both worlds, Beautiful Glass that Auto Focusses on a 36MP Sensor, worth giving a try I think & hopefully Canon some where down the track go one better now that Sony have to some degree shown it can be done.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ruined said:


> I still don't understand who these full frame mirorrless cameras are aimed at, aside from a hobbyist with a lot of money to burn.
> 
> -Average consumer, it is too expensive
> -Camera-oriented gadget freak, would probably rather have a cameraphone like the Lumia 1020
> ...



I agree for now, although:

eventually the EVFs could be better than optical VFs, it could help get one to higher fps for less money (mirror assembly is one the parts that has some real cost to it), with the space savings maybe you fit 1 series battery power into a nice 5D-sized body, once dual-pixel AF is fully perfected maybe the AF would be just as good

as for the A7R and canon users:
I think it's all about the sensor (awesome) and the mount (takes Canon lenses with an adapter) and the mirrorless aspect (other than it helped insure Canon lenses would work) is an afterthought at best and a negative at worst.


----------



## Traktor (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

LightandMotion,

Thanks for the review. Is the autofocus with Canon EF and metabones at least accurate?


----------



## Zv (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Sorry but am with Neuro on this one regarding battery life. 

300 shots or less?? That is absolutely useless as an all day walkaround camera. Extra batteries? Forget that. Based on that performance I would need to buy at least 4 additional batteries just to get a decent number of shots. (Not to mention the additional cost of buying some chargers). I recently went to Kyoto and took about 800 shots with just one battery and it still had juice at the end of the day. 

And battery grip negates the size and portability advantage. I like my cameras ungripped. 

I don't think this is replacing DSLRs just yet.


----------



## LightandMotion (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Traktor said:


> LightandMotion,
> 
> Thanks for the review. Is the autofocus with Canon EF and metabones at least accurate?



With the 16-35 II, 50 f1.2 and 100 f2.8IS It is accurate once it locks on. There is also AF microadjustment if needed.


----------



## Dylan777 (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Zv said:


> Sorry but am with Neuro on this one regarding battery life.
> 
> 300 shots or less?? That is absolutely useless as an all day walkaround camera. Extra batteries? Forget that. Based on that performance I would need to buy at least 4 additional batteries just to get a decent number of shots. (Not to mention the additional cost of buying some chargers). I recently went to Kyoto and took about 800 shots with just one battery and it still had juice at the end of the day.
> 
> ...



Tracking moving subject, yes, no where near DSLR. Everything else, I wouldn't say that. IQ could easily out perform any Canon current DSLR.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Zv said:


> Sorry but am with Neuro on this one regarding battery life.
> 
> 300 shots or less?? That is absolutely useless as an all day walkaround camera. Extra batteries? Forget that. Based on that performance I would need to buy at least 4 additional batteries just to get a decent number of shots. (Not to mention the additional cost of buying some chargers). I recently went to Kyoto and took about 800 shots with just one battery and it still had juice at the end of the day.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, yes, the battery life sucks cow n!pples , it gives only 270 shots per charge (I'm prepared to count it as only 250 shots per charge) ... that's why I ordered 3 additional batteries for my upcoming vacation ... even then I'll get only 1000 or so shots (still, its too less for all day sightseeing ... you wouldn't want to have it as the only camera) ... but I made the plunge and ordered the a7+28-70 (from B&H) and HVL-F43M flash (from Digitalrev -- this flash is cheaper in Hongkong than USA) .. another draw back at the moment is, the battery has to charged while it is in camera ... but they are releasing a charger soon (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&A=details&Q=&sku=1008167&is=REG) for US$ 50 ... but that should have been included with the purchase in the first place

To me, these 2 draw backs suggest that Sony rushed into it, to cash in on the very lucrative Christmas/New Year period. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets replaced within a year.

I'll use it during the vacation, if I don't like it I'm prepared to sell it off ... I'll consider it a 3 week rental  Besides, I still have my 5D MK III and the D610 to take care situations the a7 cannot handle.


----------



## traveller (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Whilst battery life is a bit of an Achilles Heel for any mirrorless camera (especially those with battery draining EVFs), anyone who's shooting 1200 shots per day probably needs a DSLR anyway. 

I quite like the idea of a mirrorless full frame camera for landscapes, not just because the camera is smaller, but because wide angle lenses can be made so much smaller as well. The best thing about these Sonys is that you can try them out by just buying the camera and adaptor for your existing lenses. 

I have a friend who is desperately looking for an upgrade to his 1Ds MkIII and doesn't do enough action work to make a 1D X an attractive option. He was seriously talking about the D800, but didn't want to shell out for new lenses. I suggested he take a look at the A7R with an EF-FE mount adaptor to start with. He wasn't keen because he's used to the 1D series body (he regards my 5D MkIII as too small -he's not much over 5' tall BTW!). I pointed out that you wouldn't want to use it all day at an event with a 70-200 on, but (as LightandMotion ably demonstrates in his post) who cares when you've got it on a tripod?


----------



## spinworkxroy (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



LightandMotion said:


> Traktor said:
> 
> 
> > LightandMotion,
> ...



I had some issues with the Canon primes actually.
They work yes, but lock on is so slow...feels like using an EOS M.
And i do get it failing to focus about 10% of the time.
So for me, i wouldn't want to use Canon glass on this camera with a metabones unless you're not in any hurry. You're better off using MF lenses which is ok to take your time..or native FE glass or with the Sony adapter for A mount glass..that one is super fast..


----------



## Zv (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry but am with Neuro on this one regarding battery life.
> ...



I think the A7 would be awesome as a back up or second body, for sure. I was just ranting at the notion of it being the one and only solution to our photographic needs. Dunno, where I picked up that vibe?? Was it on this thread or just in my head!! Haha am losin it! Sorry!

I hope you have a wonderful vacation and take lots of amazing photos with your new gear!


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Zv said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > Zv said:
> ...


 ;D ;D ;D ... no issues, I didn't think you were ranting ... what you said about a7 is absolutely dead on!
Thanks for the good wishes.


----------



## sanj (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I believe that if one a person is taking more than 300 photos on a vacation while walking around is being trigger happy.
Does one really see 300 great images during a single day???? Really!
Such a person would need to carry 8+ rolls of 36 exp film in the old days. Wow!

I think the A7's are superb for the discerning photographer who wants to travel light.


----------



## Zv (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sanj said:


> I believe that if one a person is taking more than 300 photos on a vacation while walking around is being trigger happy.
> Does one really see 300 great images during a single day???? Really!
> Such a person would need to carry 8+ rolls of 36 exp film in the old days. Wow!
> 
> I think the A7's are superb for the discerning photographer who wants to travel light.



I don't see 300 great images but it might take say 15 to 20 shots to find the angle, POV and framing that creates a great shot. I want to find that perfect shot, nail the focus and exposure and then? I Experiment!! 

So maybe in one day I only got 10 or 20 good shots, but at least one will be a keeper for sure!! 

I also keep the duds until I get home to help learn what went wrong and improve next time. 

But is there a reason NOT to take a lot of pictures? Am I doing something horribly wrong?? I shoot a lot of frames because it's free and I learn something each time I press the shutter. 

That said I do find myself just placing the viewfinder to my eye and not taking a picture more often. What's that called btw? A dry shot? I also try an evaluate the importance of the shot. (Is this a cat worth taking a picture of or is it like ever other cat??). 

Btw - I don't take 1000 pictures of cats. Heaven have mercy if I did!!


----------



## GmwDarkroom (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sanj said:


> I believe that if one a person is taking more than 300 photos on a vacation while walking around is being trigger happy.
> Does one really see 300 great images during a single day???? Really!


300 great images? Probably not. However depending on your subject matter, you may need to take that many to get the quantity of keepers you want. Easily, if the subject isn't static. If I were doing street or nature photography on vacation, I could easily -- and have -- find places I'd take far more than that in a day.


sanj said:


> Such a person would need to carry 8+ rolls of 36 exp film in the old days. Wow!


Indeed. I shot much differently in those days. I carefully waited for what I thought was the perfect shot. I held back in anticipation. I lost many shots I wish I'd gotten, too. I'd say the fact that we don't need a raft of film rolls anymore is one of the greatest freedoms to photography we could ever wish for.


sanj said:


> I think the A7's are superb for the discerning photographer who wants to travel light.


I completely agree, but it has weaknesses. Battery life being one of them. Worse so if your vacation doesn't return you to a power socket every night.

For me, it's an interesting step away from traditional mirror SLR technology which has much promise. Combined with Canon glass and better performance, it'll be phenomenal. Just like the first DSLRs.


----------



## J.R. (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sanj said:


> I believe that if one a person is taking more than 300 photos on a vacation while walking around is being trigger happy.



Not really when on a vacation with kids. I recently shot over 300 while my kids were having a great time at the beach. Maybe if you are travelling alone one would shoot less.

In the net result probably I didn't have 300 great shots but I got a few very good ones, some of which are framed and put in my living room. 

I don't care how many I shoot, so long as I get some shots that I want. Landscapes... Yes I plan for it and get them right in a few attempts.


----------



## tomscott (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I would agree about the shot number, you need to slow down compose and think about what your shooting. Thats the problem with modern cameras snap happy mediocre shots. Love taking out my Bronica 645 every once and a while and slowing down and being constrained by the 15-16 shots per film.

But if your talking about a weeks vacation it would be a pain in the a*se to have to be constantly charging the thing.

I recently went to have a look at one, being a 5DMKIII shooter but also have a Sony NEX5N which I like to shoot with when out and about. I was actually surprised at how big it was in comparison and felt well… might as well take the DSLR, I still prefer the OVF and the AF system of the 5D.

I know were talking about huge advances and a huge sensor but what I'm used to with a mirrorless camera I still wouldn't call it small, its still a similar form factor factor, just a little smaller. Yes is aimed at the higher end, but I still dont think its the answer. Like putting a 911 engine in a VW bus...


----------



## sanj (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I see your points. 
It would be great to have better battery life always. Of course. Be it our cell or camera.
But 300 does not sound that horrible to me if I were on vacation. 

300 seems a decent enough compromise given the fact that I get super IQ in a smaller/lighter package. If the charger is not too heavy, it could stay in my pocket to add juice while having coffee or lunch. 

Not arguing, but thinking aloud that 300 should be enough with planning for a smaller package.


----------



## J.R. (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sanj said:


> Not arguing, but thinking aloud that 300 should be enough with planning for a smaller package.



Sure, depending what and how you shoot. However, IMHO, more buyers than not will buy the A7/A7R and end up shooting zero. I suspect it will be bought by wealthy hobbyists, most of whom don't shoot much anyway.


----------



## tcmatthews (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sanj said:


> I see your points.
> It would be great to have better battery life always. Of course. Be it our cell or camera.
> But 300 does not sound that horrible to me if I were on vacation.
> 
> ...



The A7 and A7r both use the same batteries as the Nex cameras. The current charge is a Little large to put in a pocket although it looks like they are making a new one. You can fit about 4-5 batteries in the space of one charge. I have found I can live with around 3 batteries on my Nex6. (Which has around the same number of shots.) 

But having a camera that can charge through USB is very useful. I often take a Apple charger with me and a USB cable. That way I can charge my phone or my camera if needed. My cousin bough a roll out solar power USB charger that is capable of charging an iPad in 30 minutes. I could see that being useful on travel.

Sony should have induced a charger for both of these cameras. But I now have one so it is not really needed. Also after a while getting a charger with a camera gets a little ridiculous when you buy into a system. I now have 3 Canon LP-E6 battery chargers.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sanj said:


> I believe that if one a person is taking more than 300 photos on a vacation while walking around is being trigger happy.
> Does one really see 300 great images during a single day???? Really!
> Such a person would need to carry 8+ rolls of 36 exp film in the old days. Wow!
> 
> I think the A7's are superb for the discerning photographer who wants to travel light.


Do you have children? ... I have 3, and they are always active ... when we go on vacation we are out for over 14 hours every single day ... that's just 21 photos an hour, which is nothing, coz I easily shoot about a 1000 photos a day on vacation .... now if you are specifically referring to 300 "great images" then my lips are sealed :-X :-[
During film days, I use to shoot 3 to 4 rolls a day (if I was on vacation) and then cringe when some of the developed shots were sh!tty and I still had to pay for them ... Thank God we live in the digital age.


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Zv said:


> Sorry but am with Neuro on this one regarding battery life.
> 
> 300 shots or less?? That is absolutely useless as an all day walkaround camera. Extra batteries? Forget that. Based on that performance I would need to buy at least 4 additional batteries just to get a decent number of shots. (Not to mention the additional cost of buying some chargers). I recently went to Kyoto and took about 800 shots with just one battery and it still had juice at the end of the day.
> 
> ...



considering the battery life issue --- and thinking of the honeymoon I recently got back from. I shot around 2600 images ---over 7 days - on a 6d, had to swap batteries once. If i had the sony, I would have had to keep a fresh battery handy for each day and then some. So charge and change each day, vs charge and change once over the course of 7 days - which would you rather do?



sanj said:


> I believe that if one a person is taking more than 300 photos on a vacation while walking around is being trigger happy.
> Does one really see 300 great images during a single day???? Really!
> Such a person would need to carry 8+ rolls of 36 exp film in the old days. Wow!
> 
> I think the A7's are superb for the discerning photographer who wants to travel light.



See above, I actually would have shot more while in jamaica but my limit was more based on only having 4 16gig cards on me --- if you love to shoot and you go from buffalo ny to paradise, the only way your not shooting a ton is if you just don't bring your camera!

it's odd too, because I do consider myself a working pro, but, on vacation i'd say the ratio was about 15% pro shots and the rest total tourist. All the shanty towns on the way to negril, yup, i was shooting from a moving bus. On the tours, yup, lots of shooting from a moving car. LOL - what do you expect from a photographer whose never been to the tropics? It's freaking paradise!!!!


----------



## lpwphoto (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



LightandMotion said:


> Been shooting all week with it now. Dynamic range over a stop better than my 1dx. Noise is similar.
> 
> Summary from a Canon Landscape Photographer
> 
> ...



Thanks Light and Motion, this is exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. I'm primarily a landscape shooter as well and without much money to spend on the hobby am looking for the biggest bang for my buck in whatever I end up getting. I couldn't decide between a 5D3 or a 6D but once Sony announced the A7R I've been anxiously awaiting to hear how it performs in the landscape arena. 

I'd be interested to see any of your landscape shots that you've taken with it!


----------



## Albi86 (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



lpwphoto said:


> LightandMotion said:
> 
> 
> > Been shooting all week with it now. Dynamic range over a stop better than my 1dx. Noise is similar.
> ...



You can read reviews around.

For slow, controlled situations like landscapes the a7r is the absolute best.


----------



## LightandMotion (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



lpwphoto said:


> I'd be interested to see any of your landscape shots that you've taken with it!



Both images with A7R and Zeiss ZE, 15mm f2.8. First image 30min after sunset, second image 25min before sunrise this morning.


----------



## eml58 (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



LightandMotion said:


> Both images with A7R and Zeiss ZE, 15mm f2.8. First image 30min after sunset, second image 25min before sunrise this morning.



Like the 2nd in particular, Lovely.

I have the Zeiss 15f/2.8 Canon mount, unfortunately not been able as yet to get the adaptor for my a7r, so at present just able to utilise with the Zeiss 35f/2.8.

I've not found the Battery Life to be excessively Bad, 300-450 Images seems to be about my best, so it means on a Busy shoot I need perhaps 1 spare charged Battery, recently in Svalbard due to the Cold conditions I was changing my 1Dx Battery about every 2 Hours.

I Like the Camera, see the possibilities, hamstrung by Sony due to quite poor Market implementation but just the same I think Sony have a reasonable winner here, all depends on wether Sony commit to the Lenses and support over the next couple of years. This is where the likes of Canon/Nikon leave Sony behind, support of the product.


----------



## sanj (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > I believe that if one a person is taking more than 300 photos on a vacation while walking around is being trigger happy.
> ...



Yes, thank God for digital.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



LightandMotion said:


> lpwphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be interested to see any of your landscape shots that you've taken with it!
> ...


MAGNIFICENT!


----------



## LightandMotion (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Did an event today, and after I got the essential shots with the 1dX, I played around with the A7R. Setup was A7R, 50mm f1.2L, 580EXII with ring flash. After a bit of faffing around, my hit rate was almost as high as the 1dX. Used the 50mm in manual mode, but used focus peaking to manually focus rather than the focus magnifier. Focus peaking is accurate and my hit rate was over 80%. The misses were usually when there were no real defined lines for focus peaking to latch on to. I found the subject's eye worked pretty good for focus peaking.

Yellow worked better than red to define the area of focus (less distracting).

580EXII worked well in manual mode. Obviously doesn't work in ETTL mode, but I generally use manual mode most of the time anyway.

Not as quick/accurate or convenient as the 1dX, but can be used if needed.

Found another 2 cons of the A7R though. Shutter lag is minor, but becomes a pain in events/ wedding photography. Not something that worried me with landscapes. Also on a tripod there can be a bit of camera flex between the body and the grip with a heavy lens (24mmTSE or 15mm Zeiss). The 1dx on the other hand is a rock. If only they had the Sony sensor in a 1d body at the A7R price.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 8, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Does any one know how to change the focus points on Sony a7? like how we choose any of the 61 AF points on Canon


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 8, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> Does any one know how to change the focus points on Sony a7? like how we choose any of the 61 AF points on Canon


OK, I figured out how to do it ... a bit long winded, but it works. In doing so I found that the sides of the images are horribly soft ... I guess it might be the weakness of the kit lens ... but the center is stunningly sharp.
For those who are like me searching how to change focus points:
Hit "Fn" button, choose "Focus Area" and select "Flexible Spot M" ... then you can use the Control Wheel on the back of the camera to select the focus point. 
If anyone knows a faster way, please do share. Thanks


----------



## LightandMotion (Dec 8, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*




Rienzphotoz said:


> If anyone knows a faster way, please do share. Thanks


Assign focus area to one of the 3 custom buttons


----------



## drjlo (Dec 8, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



LightandMotion said:


> 580EXII worked well in manual mode. Obviously doesn't work in ETTL mode, but I generally use manual mode most of the time anyway.
> 
> If only they had the Sony sensor in a 1d body at the A7R price.



Not familiar with Sony's latest hot shoe, but so the 580EX II will physically fit inside Sony shot shoe and get a fire signal when Sony's shutter is released? (in manual mode)


----------



## tcmatthews (Dec 8, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



drjlo said:


> LightandMotion said:
> 
> 
> > 580EXII worked well in manual mode. Obviously doesn't work in ETTL mode, but I generally use manual mode most of the time anyway.
> ...



In short Yes. The hot shoe is a little shorter so the back two pins do not make contact. I understand that Nikon and many other flashes that support M flash mode will also work. I have yet to see a Sony flash that does not need an adapter to work with it. I refuse to buy a Sony flash because I do not want some flimsy adapter between the camera and the flash. So I use my 430EX II on it instead.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 9, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



tcmatthews said:


> drjlo said:
> 
> 
> > LightandMotion said:
> ...


I just tried it with my 600 EX RT, Yongnuo YN568EXII (Nikon mount) and Sunpak RD2000 (Canon mount) ... all of them work very well up to 1/250sec (obviously, everything has to be in manual mode, coz although the shutter triggers the flash the camera does not register the flash). I find the hotshoe fitting is *extremely* tight, it's ok with the metal footing of Canon and Yongnuo but I'm afraid the plastic feet of Sunkpak could easily give up the ghost ... you can literally rip it right off if you are not careful. Anyway, I had already ordered the Sony HVL-F43M flash a few days ago, should be here tomorrow or the day after.


----------



## sanj (Dec 9, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Not arguing, but thinking aloud that 300 should be enough with planning for a smaller package.
> ...



Wonder why you feel that? It is actually one of the cheapest options around for this quality. The wealthy who want to buy for the sake of buying have Leica.


----------



## Albi86 (Dec 9, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sanj said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



+1

The a7 is actually the cheapest FF available - at least here in Europe.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 9, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Albi86 said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > J.R. said:
> ...


+1 ... it is the cheapest full frame camera with a kit lens anywhere in the world. Agreed it cannot match the versatility of a full frame DSLR, nonetheless it does deliver excellent results for people photography and landscapes. It sucks at any moderate action ... but that might be due to the limitations of the kit lens ... will have to wait and see when the Zeis 24-70 comes out.


----------



## sdsr (Dec 10, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



J.R. said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Not arguing, but thinking aloud that 300 should be enough with planning for a smaller package.
> ...



I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the c300 limit isn't so much a Sony thing as a mirrorless thing, especially when an EVF is involved as it is here; they simply use more power than dslrs. I don't get much more than that with my Olympus OM-D EM5 (haven't had my new EM1 long enough to find out); the first time I went to Longwood Gardens with it I ran out of power after about three hours and had to switch to a Canon dslr. 

As for who's interested in the A7/A7R, I have no idea (landscapers with tripods strike me as a small minority, but who knows?), but - and this doesn't really prove anything of course - I spent a fair amount of time in B&H on Sunday. The place was packed, unsurprisingly, with lots of people milling around the Nikon and (especially) Canon stands and wanting to see the latest Fuji Xs and Olympus OM-D. To my complete surprise, while there were a few people at the Sony stand, the only person I'm aware of who ventured near an A7 was me; the lonely salesman seemed pleased enough to chat even though I didn't have much to say except that I lost interest when I realized they had no IBIS - he seemed sympathetic. I must say, though, that it was quite nice to hold and the EVF looks impressive. And it really is small - displayed among a bunch of small Sony point-and-shoots it made no impression whatsoever (aside from being black). Hard to imagine using anything but the smallest primes on it (without a tripod, at any rate).


----------



## neuroanatomist (Dec 10, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > The a7 is actually the cheapest FF available - at least here in Europe.
> ...



As a bundle, yes. But here in the USA at least, the 6D + 24-105/4L IS kit is only $84 more than the a7 + 28-70/3.5-5.6 OSS, and you're getting a more versatile body and a lens with a broader zoom range on both ends, constant aperture, and one stop faster at the long end. The Sony kit is more like a Canon 28-135/3.5-5.6 IS option… :-X


----------



## CarlTN (Dec 10, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Sony HX50 ? How does it compare to the RX100/B? What about the WX300? Would it have a better S/N than the G15?


----------



## Albi86 (Dec 14, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> tcmatthews said:
> 
> 
> > drjlo said:
> ...



Interesting to know that the RD2000 works fine. It makes for a nice small addition to the kit.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 14, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Albi86 said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > tcmatthews said:
> ...


Indeed! ... the good thing about the RD2000 is that it can be bounced upwards and it is darned cheap.


----------



## AvTvM (Dec 14, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



neuroanatomist said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > +1 ... it is the cheapest full frame camera with a kit lens anywhere in the world.
> ...



yes, 24-105 is a better lens. 
but: http://camerasize.com/compact/#380.21,488.396,ha,t 
oops!


----------



## Zv (Dec 15, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Rienzphotoz said:
> ...



Yeah OK it does look a bit bigger but you are getting a longer zoom range. I wonder how it would compare to the 6D + 24-70 f/4L IS combo? Obviously it would cost more. 

This link is for the 24-70 f/4 comparison. 

http://j.mp/HYCNKd

This one is with both cameras with a 50 1.8

http://j.mp/1bNP78T


----------



## Albi86 (Dec 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Interesting quick test:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/12/sony-a7r-a-rising-tide-lifts-all-the-boats

(Quick for Roger's standards, I mean)


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Zv said:


> http://j.mp/HYCNKd
> 
> http://j.mp/1bNP78T


Both the links are throwing up this error message: "Oops! could not find j.mp"


----------



## Zv (Dec 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > http://j.mp/HYCNKd
> ...



Try this instead 

http://camerasize.com/compact/#488.396,380.367,ha,t

http://camerasize.com/compact/#488.87,380.306,ha,t


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Zv said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > Zv said:
> ...


Thanks


----------



## sanj (Dec 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Rienzphotoz said:
> ...



Yep that is what this is about. And better IQ!


----------



## AvTvM (Dec 16, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sanj said:


> Yep that is what this is about. And better IQ!



wait for the SonyZeiss 24-70/4 ZE ... if it is as good as the 35/2.8 ... it might easily beat the 24-105. Except in focal length.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Dec 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Yep that is what this is about. And better IQ!
> ...


It better be, considering they want to charge almost $1200 for it ... I'll be one of the first in line to get the Zeiss 24-70 f/4.


----------



## AvTvM (Dec 17, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> It better be, considering they want to charge almost $1200 for it ... I'll be one of the first in line to get the Zeiss 24-70 f/4.



yep. will be interesting to see, how it will compare to the Canon EF 24-70/4 L IS ... MSRP are the same and streetprice will be similar too once the SonyZeiss gets to full availability.

After reading Roger Cicalas blog re. SonyZeiss FE 35/2.8 and its optical qualities I expect the 24-70 to be very good too.


----------



## drjlo (Dec 22, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

So it begins.
Sony A7R shutter vibration/image blur issue:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/the-shutter-vibration-issue-explained-by-joseph-holmes/


----------



## EchoLocation (Dec 22, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Zv said:


> EchoLocation said:
> 
> 
> > Ruined said:
> ...


based on your logic, Leica shouldn't be in business.

I'm thrilled to be going back to enjoyable, more thoughtful, artistic side of photography. When I first started taking photos, I never dreamed of owning an SLR, it just wasn't the kind of camera I wanted.
Fast forward 15 years and it seemed outside of the M8 and M9 the only obvious choices for high quality camera gear were DSLR's. So, I jumped in to the Canon party with a 550D. But it never really made me feel at home, or comfortable. it was always too big, bulky, and more like a science than an art. Yes the EVF on the Sony is rather high tech, but I love the features it allows(magnificiation, FP, zebra stripes.) 
I have really missed manual focusing and I'm enjoying having a reasonable sized camera that still allows me to take photos in a way that is comfortable for me. I also like the kit lens(for what it is) and am planning on buying some FE lenses when they drop in price, or release something faster,
While I love my EOS-M, the lack of dials to control manual settings, and no VF make it a little less than an ideal tool for me to use as my main camera.


----------



## sdsr (Dec 22, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



EchoLocation said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > I also enjoy the odd manual focusing only I went the cheaper route of -
> ...



I guess it's ironic (or at least a bit eccentric) to buy a fairly fancy new camera so you can better use manual (and in some ways rather antiquated) lenses, but manual focusing with a dslr is no fun for me (for one thing, I need a viewfinder as I hate using the monitor; and but optical viewfinders in dslrs are hopeless for manual focusing). Mirrorless cameras are another matter entirely, and one major reason why I upgraded from the OMD-EM5 to the EM1 is its superior manual AF performance. This is a mirrorless/EVF advantage in general; it's not specific to Sony: the only advantage the A7s have is the FF sensor - a far from trivial advantage, of course, but old manual lenses don't have IS, and the Sonys, unlike their dslr cousins, don't have IBIS; but the OM-Ds do. (The M won't do for me because it has neither IBIS nor an EVF.)


----------



## spinworkxroy (Dec 23, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

i'm just curious..the people that bash the A7R...have they actually used it before?
I personally was a 5D3 user since it was launched and i used the 24-70F2.8II almost all the time so i'm very familiar with what that camera can do.

Recently, i switched to the A7R. so i also am familiar with the A7R.

To compare these 2 cameras, 
The 5D3 is faster, has plenty of lenses to choose from and has great IQ and great ISO capabilities.
But, because of it's size, unless you're doing profesional work, 90% of the time, i leave it at home and grab the EOS M instead.

The A7r, is much slower but it's so small and the images that the 35mm zeiss produces is nothing i've seen on the Canon..it's simply amazing...Granted it only has this 1 lens now but 2014 we should see more..
I'm throughly enjoying the 35mm zeiss for now..
Having the evf is wonderful...the face detection and the AF mode together makes even the 5d3 63points seem pointless because though slower to focus, you dont need to even select the af point nor move it..the camera does it for you anywhere in the screen.

though i still fell the a7r is never going to cut it for a professional and his work, it is a camera he will grab and bring out for his own shooting.
And i must sat the SOOC jpg from the a7r is way ahead of the 5d3 even with the best L lens and thw raw files have much more capabilities than the 5d3

this is my experience with both cameras...


----------



## sdsr (Dec 23, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

This is worth reading (no surprise there):

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/12/a-bit-of-a7r-sanity


----------



## klickflip (Dec 23, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



spinworkxroy said:


> though i still fell the a7r is never going to cut it for a professional and his work, it is a camera he will grab and bring out for his own shooting.
> And i must sat the SOOC jpg from the a7r is way ahead of the 5d3 even with the best L lens and thw raw files have much more capabilities than the 5d3
> 
> this is my experience with both cameras...



Funny I feel it WILL be fine for my professional work.. 
I tested the A7 quickly and found it focus certainly fast enough for more considered work like static portraits, even some fashion and definitely still life/ product shoots and landscape / general location work. Am looking forward to hiring one to test on a shoot next year. I feel the sensor will give me much more to work with in detail and DR terms. 

However I would not really think of using it to do an more docu, or live freeform shooting work. And sports should be fine as I do a lot of skateboarding images, but generally I'll compose light with location flash and lock the focus off to get the shot I want rather than run n gun. 

It all depends on how you shoot, not much will come close to the 5D III or 1Dx in AF & speed terms if you rely on that all the time. 

Horses for courses no camera will do all, I used to shoot a mix of mainly MF film, 35mm film and sometimes 5x4. 
There were never really any cameras that could do it all and dont see why we should think there is thesedays. 
In the past deciding which camera, film, lens etc to use for the required shoot opens up your creative choices and makes you focus on what you can achieve with the tools, situation and some creative grey matter! 

Overall I was really impressed with how it felt and worked - reminded me of using an film Canon A1.


----------



## spinworkxroy (Dec 24, 2013)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

ah...I made the assumption professional work that 5d3 users use it for, weddings and some sports..
in these aspect the a7 maybe can come closer but definitely not the a7r.
for studio or landscape work, definitely possible..
basically as long as the subject doesn't move, the a7r is fantastic


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

While surfing youtube for Sony a7 tutorials, I came across this video ... and I was blown away to find out that an existing Sony E mount 10-18mm f/4 lens (meant for crop frame) actually works AS FULL FRAME 12-18 lens at full resolution of the Sony a7 ... and it has image stabilization and it is on pact light weight lens. WOW! now that is freaking AWESOME ... I will be ordering it this weekend. Me very excited.
Watch the video at around 25 minutes mark, where the guy shows the lens.http://youtube.com/watch?v=GSSoQnD5vzE


----------



## drjlo (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> and I was blown away to find out that an existing Sony E mount 10-18mm f/4 lens (meant for crop frame) actually works AS FULL FRAME 12-18 lens at full resolution of the Sony a7 ... and it has image stabilization and it is on pact light weight lens. WOW! now that is freaking AWESOME ... I will be ordering it this weekend. Me very excited.
> Watch the video at around 25 minutes mark, where the guy shows the lens.http://youtube.com/watch?v=GSSoQnD5vzE



I am very surprised about that 10-18 mm being useful on FF (at least at >12mm) because it has quite bad vignetting even on APS-C sensor (2.5 EV at 10 mm end and 1.72 EV at 14mm). I would be interested in seeing actual wide angle FF shots large screens, not on camera screen.
http://www.photozone.de/sony_nex/829-sony1018f4oss?start=1

My enthusiasm is also tampered by the fact the 10-18mm is not exactly a cheap lens at $850 :'(


----------



## drjlo (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



drjlo said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > and I was blown away to find out that an existing Sony E mount 10-18mm f/4 lens (meant for crop frame) actually works AS FULL FRAME 12-18 lens at full resolution of the Sony a7 ... and it has image stabilization and it is on pact light weight lens. WOW! now that is freaking AWESOME ... I will be ordering it this weekend. Me very excited.
> ...


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



drjlo said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > and I was blown away to find out that an existing Sony E mount 10-18mm f/4 lens (meant for crop frame) actually works AS FULL FRAME 12-18 lens at full resolution of the Sony a7 ... and it has image stabilization and it is on pact light weight lens. WOW! now that is freaking AWESOME ... I will be ordering it this weekend. Me very excited.
> ...


Vignetting doesn't concern me that much ... I am sure I can fix it in PP ... besides even if I was to use it only from 14mm-18mm, that is still incredibly wide, that too in a very small package ... $850 is not cheap but it isn't expensive either, considering that it is at least a 14mm lens in an incredible dmall form factor ... when Sony does release a native FE wide angle lens, I can always sell the 10-18 ... I'll probably get this lens within the next 2 weeks and will post some images.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Sony A7 Alpha Time-Lapse App has Landed!
Sony A7 Alpha Time-Lapse App has Landed!


----------



## xps (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6018399843/using-third-party-lenses-on-sony-a7-a7r

Dpreview will release its review in the next day(s).

Used it on saturday @ indoor shooting. Outdoor @ good light-> superb! But indoor, the alpha 7 with the kit lens had some problems with the AF. It took very long to get sharp. I will try it with an better zeiss-lens next week again.


----------



## eml58 (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> Sony A7 Alpha Time-Lapse App has Landed!



Thanks for that Rienz, wasn't even aware of this function/ability, Apps for Cameras, what will they think of next, hopefully some more Lenses.

Have been reading this thread with interest, I've had my a7r for a month now, lots of things I like about it, a couple I dont, sort of how I feel about the 1Dx & 5DMK III. Having been one of those Leica M9 owners mentioned earlier, my experience with the a7r is worlds apart from my experience with the M9, just wasn't happy with the M9, the a7r I liked from the start.

The a7r for me at least will likely never replace the 1Dx, it could replace the 5DMK III if Sony do a bit more with Lenses, I have the Adaptor so I can use Canon Lenses on the a7r, but I feel you give up IQ to utilise the ability, a friend of mine does still own the M9 & bought the Metabones adaptor to use his Leica glass, he's about to sell his M9 as well, although he does say not all his Leica Glass works 100% on the a7r, it works well enough for him to decide on the a7r over the Leica.

I think to date my biggest issues with the a7r, and I understand of course No System offers everything we need as Photographers, would be the a7r's lack of ability on anything that moves, so as a wildlife system on anything other than vultures on a kill, the a7r is not the Camera for wildlife shooters. 

Low light with the EVF is troublesome, workable, but not up to the 1Dx or the 5DMK III.

I still have issues with that EVF, the way it hangs onto the last Image in the viewfinder momentarily just annoys the heck out of me, but it gets back to that first point I made, this is not really the Camera for action shots.

But good points are still good points, the size factor is just amazing, throw the Camera into a bag & you hardly know it's there, great Camera for General Imaging, spot on for Landscape, and with some additional Lenses it should be a great Portrait Camera.

I like it, and will work with it, I'm keen to get it into an Underwater Housing once we have a Macro Lens and a WA at around 15, The Images this Camera produces should equate to better imaging for my underwater use, and the small form factor will allow a much smaller Underwater Housing to be used than I currently use for the 1DMK IV & 5DMK III.


----------



## eml58 (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

2 Minutes after mentioning the above, friend of mine sent me this link in case anyone else is interested, I'll certainly order the Housing today & start thinking what WA/Macro Lenses I can use on the beast, probably start with the Adaptor with the Canon 8-15f/4 & Canon 100f/2.8 L IS Macro.


http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/new-nauticam-housing-for-sony-a7-and-a7r/


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



eml58 said:


> 2 Minutes after mentioning the above, friend of mine sent me this link in case anyone else is interested, I'll certainly order the Housing today & start thinking what WA/Macro Lenses I can use on the beast, probably start with the Adaptor with the Canon 8-15f/4 & Canon 100f/2.8 L IS Macro.
> 
> 
> http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/new-nauticam-housing-for-sony-a7-and-a7r/


AWESOME! ... it sure is a beast at 2.4 KG


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



eml58 said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > Sony A7 Alpha Time-Lapse App has Landed!
> ...


Yeah, the apps are pretty cool ... I have no prior experience with any apps for Sony NEX cameras, but I saw a few youtube videos of people using some very useful apps for those cameras ... apparently, Sony will release all (or most) of those cool apps optimized for the full frame mirrorless cameras.
Athough the a7 is faster to AF then the a7R, it is definitely not meant for action. For me, it will never replace my 5D MK III with 70-200 f/2.8 IS II but anything below that range I now prefer the a7 for its sheer light weight and convenience. I'm just waiting for the ZEISS 24-70 f/4 and a UWA lens. 
I totally agree about the EVF, although it is currently the best out there, it is not yet completely there ... it'd be great if there was no lag ... I suppose the next versions will only get better.


----------



## Ricku (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

The zeiss UWA-zoom will hopefully arrive in March. It will be my first and only native lens for the A7R, at least for now.

I still have a speck of hope left for Canon sensor developers, so I'm keeping all my EF-glass. lol.


----------



## lecoupdejarnac (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Just got my A7R!

I'm going to try it out for a month but it's looking like I'll be selling my 5DII.
Sure it's not perfect and there's a few things I'll miss (Canon has a better flash ecosystem, better ergonomics and menus, MagicLantern) but it's small and light enough I'll actually take it with me!

Probably I'll keep most of my Canon glass though...


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Ricku said:


> The zeiss UWA-zoom will hopefully arrive in March. It will be my first and only native lens for the A7R, at least for now.


That would be AWESOME ... but what makes you hopeful of it arriving in March? ... any rumor/leak you read? if so please post. Thanks.

[/quote]


Ricku said:


> I still have a speck of hope left for Canon sensor developers, so I'm keeping all my EF-glass. lol.


I like Canon glass over anything Sony has to offer ... I would not trade my 5D MK III or any of my lenses, especially 70mm onwards ... except maybe the 50 f/1.4 for a ZEISS 55 f/1.8, but again I hardly ever shoot with a prime lens, so maybe not.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



lecoupdejarnac said:


> Just got my A7R!


Congratulations! ... may it serve you well.


----------



## xps (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Review from Dpreview.com:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-a7


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



xps said:


> Review from Dpreview.com:
> 
> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-a7


Very nice and thorough review ... thanks for sharing.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Mar 20, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

According to http://www.sansmirror.com/lenses/lens-database/sony-nex-lenses/ ... these are the 15 FE lenses that will be available (in or before the end of 20015) "in order of likely introduction":

1. FE 28-70mm OSS (Available)
2. FE 35mm f/2.8 Zeiss (Available)
3. FE 55mm f/1.8 Zeiss (Available)
4. FE 24-70mm f/4 Zeiss OSS (Available) 
5. FE 70-200mm f/4 G OSS (Available for Pre-Order)
6. FE 16-35mm f/4 Zeiss OSS (2014)
7. FE 85mm f/1.8 Zeiss OSS (2014)
8. FE 100mm f/2.8 Macro G (2014)
9. FE 35mm f/1.4 Zeiss (2014)
10. FE 24mm f/2 Zeiss (2014)
11. FE 24-135mm f/3.5-5.6 G (2015)
12. FE 135mm f/2 Zeiss (2015)
13. FE 21mm f/2.8 Zeiss (2015)
14. FE 35mm f/2 G OSS (2015)
15. FE 50mm f/1.2 Zeiss (2015)


----------



## drjlo (Mar 20, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> According to http://www.sansmirror.com/lenses/lens-database/sony-nex-lenses/ ... these are the 15 FE lenses that will be available (in or before the end of 20015) "in order of likely introduction":
> 
> 3. FE 55mm f/1.8 Zeiss (Available)
> 
> ...



See, this is a real problem. Looking at the $$$ price Sony is selling their Zeiss FE glass, if I commit to the FE system, the lenses above are the lenses I would likely want, to at least half-way approximate my Canon lens system (minus my T-SE, MP-E, etc) We are talking about a lot, a LOT of money here, which I (and most) cannot afford IN ADDITION to the Canon glass we have already invested into.


----------



## Rienzphotoz (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



drjlo said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > According to http://www.sansmirror.com/lenses/lens-database/sony-nex-lenses/ ... these are the 15 FE lenses that will be available (in or before the end of 20015) "in order of likely introduction":
> ...


It's only a problem when you view it as a tool to replace your existing DSLR/lenses ... but as of today the Sony Full Frame mirrorless camera is not capable of replacing Canon/Nikon DSLRs and lenses. Also, it is unfair to compare a 5 months old system like Sony FF mirrorless, with decades old tried and tested eco-system like Canon & Nikon. When Canon first introduced a new system called the EOS in 1987, there were only 13 lenses introduced in the first 2 years (as listed below, not necessarily in the order of introduction):
1. EF 15mm f/2.8 fisheye (1987)
2. EF 28mm f/2.8 (1987)
3. EF 50mm f/1.8 (1987)
4. EF 50mm f/2.5 (1987)
5. EF 135mm f/2.8 softfocus (1987)
6. EF 35-70mm f/3.5 - 4.5 (1987)
7. EF 35-105mm f/3.5-4.5 (1987)
8. EF 50-200mm f/3.5-4.5 (1987)
9. EF 70-210mm f/4 (1987)
10. EF 100-300mm f/5.6 (1987)
11. EF 24mm f/2.8 (1988)
12. EF 200mm f/1.8 (1988)
13. EF 600mm f/4 (1988)
I am sure Nikon and other SLR users must have doubted the "limited" and "overlapping" line up of lenses Canon had introduced, but given the time Canon become numero-uno with some great line-up of lenses.
Give the Sony FF mirrorless system time and you we will know where it stands in a couple of years time.


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## Albi86 (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I don't remember where I read it, but some reviewer wrote "the a7 is not going to replace your DSLR, but the MkII could". I bought a sony a7 and I sent it back because I didn't feel ready to invest in the system. But the IQ and the size were so amazing that I might buy one again at some point. 


I agree with Rienz. I think in a couple years time the situation might be very different. Sony has still a so-so reputation in the photographic world, but if/when Fuji will release a FF X system, then the whole market might reconsider its position. Canikon don't seem too interested, unfortunately.


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## drjlo (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Albi86 said:


> I agree with Rienz. I think in a couple years time the situation might be very different. Sony has still a so-so reputation in the photographic world, but if/when Fuji will release a FF X system, then the whole market might reconsider its position.



I had hoped Fuji would go FF based on rumors, but it looks unlikely according to this interview with Fuji executive:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/12/17/fujifilm-not-coming-up-with-full-frame-x-mount-camera-according-to-manager

Yes, we have a couple of years to consider things. By then, a Canon 5D MKIV will be apparent, and depending on what Canon does with new sensor (or not :-[), many will consider other options including Sony. Hopefully, by then Sony will have: improved customer service, fixed their overheating speedlite, introduced some TTL triggers, made their RAW lossless, fixed the shutter vibration, improved AF on FF, etc.


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## Lightmaster (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

today i had the chance to test the Sony A7R.

all i can say.... I WANT THAT SENSOR IN A CANON!!!

pushing the shadow on ISO 100-200 images introduced nearly no noise.
images from canon looked like S___ when pushed about the same amount.
really, the difference on noise introduced is like ISO 400 vs. ISO 3200 images... 

for lansdscape images, where i often have to lighten the shadow areas a bit, that´s a great deal.
the sensor at ISO 100 really is a dream. 
personally i don´t care about ISO beyond ISO 3200 (i can´t sell such images anyway).

the EVF is really good too. still not perfect but an absolutely useable EVF.

i must say i am impressed by it´s sensor... and in parts the EVF.

a canon 5D MK3 with this sony sensor.... what a fantastic camera that would be.

canon builds the best overall cameras in my opinion. 
but this sony sensor shows that canon has much room for improvement.

of course i knew the tests done with the D800.
but using this sensor myself with LR today was an eye opener.


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## Rienzphotoz (Mar 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



drjlo said:


> Albi86 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Rienz. I think in a couple years time the situation might be very different. Sony has still a so-so reputation in the photographic world, but if/when Fuji will release a FF X system, then the whole market might reconsider its position.
> ...


+1 ... I think most people, including myself, thought that Fuji would be the first to put a full frame sensor in a mirrorless camera ... but Sony managed to pull a surprise... I still think if a few more players (like Fuji, Panasonic & CanNikon) put a FF sensor in a mirrorless camera, than we will see faster change (i.e more lenses, speedlites etc) ... till that time Sony will most likely take its own sweet time.


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## sdsr (Apr 13, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

This is fun:

http://www.leica-boss.com/2014/03/the-switch-7-stages-of-moving-from-canon-to-the-sony-a7r/

Not that I plan to switch; I like the mix....


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## drjlo (Apr 13, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sdsr said:


> This is fun:
> 
> http://www.leica-boss.com/2014/03/the-switch-7-stages-of-moving-from-canon-to-the-sony-a7r/
> 
> Not that I plan to switch; I like the mix....



That's hilarious and somewhat reflects how I felt.
However, somewhere between Stage 5 "Regret" and Stage 7 "Acceptance and Hope," I decided to go back to Canon. I also put a little something called Magic Latern on my 5D III 8)


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## mkabi (Apr 13, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sdsr said:


> This is fun:
> 
> http://www.leica-boss.com/2014/03/the-switch-7-stages-of-moving-from-canon-to-the-sony-a7r/
> 
> Not that I plan to switch; I like the mix....



lol... and thank you...
I was strongly considering a A7s... but after reading this... I'm glad that I won't be going through Stage 3 through 7


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## Rienzphotoz (May 16, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Sony's a7 Full Frame Mirrorless Camera Gets A Teardown


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## AvTvM (May 17, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

forget A7/R/S. I won't buy any of them. 
If Sony wants my money they better give me an A8/R with 500+ shots battery live, 4k Retina EVF and fully tracking capable AF. Not video capabilities required.

btw: I just love it, that Sony charges much more for the freaking "video-optimized" A7S ... 500 bucks/Euro more than the A7R and a full grand more than A7.
I'd love to see exactly the same options and pricing differential for "video-optimized" Canon DSLRs. Not only 1d_x vs. 1D-C but also upcoming 5D IV vs. 5D IV c(inema) and 7D II vs. 7D II v(ideo). 

So sweet. You want freking video, zebras, peaking crap ... you pay for it baby, you get it! You want stills only ... we're goin' to break you a deal, pal. Strike. 8)


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## Dylan777 (May 17, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> forget A7/R/S. I won't buy any of them.
> If Sony wants my money they better give me an A8/R with 500+ shots battery live, 4k Retina EVF and fully tracking capable AF. Not video capabilities required.
> 
> btw: I just love it, that Sony charges much more for the freaking "video-optimized" A7S ... 500 bucks/Euro more than the A7R and a full grand more than A7.
> ...



If - if -- if --- and more if

Last time I check, Sony is the only one offering FF mirrorless for less than $3K. Can we really blame them for this?


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## AvTvM (May 17, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

No if whatsoever. 
Either precisely the camera i want, or no purchase. 
Neither from canon nor from sony.
Quite simple.


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## Orangutan (May 17, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> Either precisely the camera *i want*, or no purchase.



This continues to be the core of your proclamations: you imply that what you want is also what the market as a whole wants. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but unless you have a few tens of millions of dollars to give Sony, Canon or Nikon, they're not going to custom-build a camera to your preferences. Rather, they'll do their own market and engineering analyses to determine what's likely to make money. (OK, Canon and Nikon will do that, Sony will build what some exec dreamed-up while sitting on the toilet ;D )

Just grab whatever you have and go out and take pictures!


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## AvTvM (May 18, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

You are mistaken. In many ways. 

I just stated, that i won't purchase another camera if it ain't precisely what i want. 

And i'm helping out possible suppliers by givkng them some clues what camera i would precisely want. So that they're not ignorant towards my requirements and don't inadvertantly build new cameras falling short of my wishes. Sitting on the shelves, waiting for purchasers never to come. 

You know, it has happened before.


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## Dylan777 (May 18, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> You are mistaken. In many ways.
> 
> I just stated, that i won't purchase another camera if it ain't precisely what i want.
> 
> ...



http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/rx100m3-topseller-at-amazon-a7s-doing-well-too/


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## bwana (May 20, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I see an awful lot of bitching, complaining and general brand hatred in this thread. Let me add:

- If you want a Canon/Nikon camera like the A7/A7R to use with all your Canon/Nikon lenses, buy an adapter!
- If you don't like the A7/A7R, don't buy it.
- If Sony doesn't make the lens you want, use someone else's!

If you want a really great full frame camera, buy the Sony A7 or A7r and enjoy it.

I've been a Canon user for years and a Pentax user before that. I now have an A7R with adapters for all my Canon, Pentax, Minolta, M42 and T2 lenses and love it. I own one Sony lens, the kit 28-70mm fit lens for the A7 (because someone didn't like it and gave it to me). BEST lens I've ever had for the price!

Stop bitching, go for it and have fun...


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## Rienzphotoz (May 20, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



bwana said:


> I see an awful lot of bitching, complaining and general brand hatred in this thread. Let me add:
> 
> - If you want a Canon/Nikon camera like the A7/A7R to use with all your Canon/Nikon lenses, buy an adapter!
> - If you don't like the A7/A7R, don't buy it.
> ...


Not quite the post one expects from a first time poster ... nevertheless Welcome to CR!


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## sdsr (May 20, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



bwana said:


> I see an awful lot of bitching, complaining and general brand hatred in this thread. Let me add:
> 
> - If you want a Canon/Nikon camera like the A7/A7R to use with all your Canon/Nikon lenses, buy an adapter!
> - If you don't like the A7/A7R, don't buy it.
> ...



Quite so. There are likely plenty of people for whom the A7 series aren't "really great" for various reasons, but for the rest of us they are indeed fun, especially if you like manual focusing and (depending on the lens) aperture selection. I've been greatly enjoying using on my A7r a variety of old manual lenses (Helios, Jupiter, Minolta, Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Vivitar & Pentax/Takumar), all of which have been very inexpensive to buy and which work really well with even cheap adapters - along with various Canon EF lenses; and when I want AF and even higher resolution I'll use the two Sony/Zeiss primes. I'm so taken with the whole process I've recently added the even smaller and lighter a6000. (Toss in my Olympus OM-D - its excellent IBIS helps - and each manual lens effectively acquires three different focal lengths; yes, you can achieve similar effects by cropping, but it's a rather different experience.)


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## eml58 (May 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> bwana said:
> 
> 
> > I see an awful lot of bitching, complaining and general brand hatred in this thread. Let me add:
> ...



Ummmmm, Yes, I agree with Rienz, welcome to CR, I think.

I've had my a7r for a while now, handed it to my eldest lad who likes it, but I recently re appropriated it to use with the Otus 55f/1.4, I must say that combination is quite remarkable, the Focus Peaking on the a7r is hugely useful with this Manual Focus Lens, I prefer this combo at the moment over the 1Dx with a Manual Focus Screen in place, especially in Low Light.


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## Dylan777 (May 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



eml58 said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > bwana said:
> ...



A7r + FE 55mm = 50L sold on ebay. I have no plan adding 50mm to my current gear. The primary reason I haven't place a pre-order on Canon 16-35 f4 IS is I'm waiting to see what Sony/Zeiss has to offer on their rumor FE 16-35 f4 OS.


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## eml58 (May 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> A7r + FE 55mm = 50L sold on ebay. I have no plan adding 50mm to my current gear. The primary reason I haven't place a pre-order on Canon 16-35 f4 IS is I'm waiting to see what Sony/Zeiss has to offer on their rumor FE 16-35 f4 OS.



The list Posted earlier in this thread re the upcoming Lenses Zeiss are producing for the Sony E Mount are very interesting, especially the faster lenses less than f/2.8, that's of real interest for me I must admit.

I love the Otus, but it would be nice to get something that has AF that's almost as good, in a Zeiss.


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## sdsr (May 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



eml58 said:


> The list Posted earlier in this thread re the upcoming Lenses Zeiss are producing for the Sony E Mount are very interesting, especially the faster lenses less than f/2.8, that's of real interest for me I must admit.
> 
> I love the Otus, but it would be nice to get something that has AF that's almost as good, in a Zeiss.



Maybe you mentioned this earlier in the thread, but if not - did you ever try the Sony/Zeiss 55mm 1.8?


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## Sunnystate (May 21, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Love my Sony A7r, of course accepting all the differences of what we are used to, in my case particularly the wake up time of the view finder, and of course the clunky Metabones adapter! Hope Novoflex will come up with something adequate soon. 
It is amazing that 36 mp sensor in that camera was not released with a companion of native super wide angle lens, and that is my only really serious problem I have with Sony so far.
On the side note, I am starting to don't believe the stats about the mirror less cameras market share, I have mirror less Sony, yesterday at Sanibel Island I meet a guy proudly caring his high end mirror less Olympus, and my friend just left for New York from short visit with his extremely elegant mirror less Fuji... Maybe coincidence, but if not, expect prices of DSLR really go up pretty soon if only pros with giant white lenses and wedding photographers will buy them, kind of like the cinema line, and seem like Canon really insist to alienate serious amateurs or semi pros... 
People here are wishing things that are not good for them just because some weird love to a "brand". It is very interesting to watch how this will play out.


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## eml58 (May 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sdsr said:


> Maybe you mentioned this earlier in the thread, but if not - did you ever try the Sony/Zeiss 55mm 1.8?



I haven't no, reports say it's an excellent Lens, but I have the 50f/1.2 L and like it, now the outs 55, and like it, so I'm about 50'ed out for the moment.

Originally I bought the a7r as a potential replacement Underwater Camera for the 5DMK III, but the lack of a 15mm wide angle & 100 macro have put those plans on hold, for the moment.

The smaller form factor, the Focus Peaking, the Sensor, the Zeiss Lenses are all great positives on this Camera, I'm less enthused with the View Finder, but I imagine that will improve in the Mark II version.

All round I like the Camera, it won't for a very long time/possibly never, replace the 1Dx, and that's fine, but once we can get a better range of Zeiss Lenses for it the "system" will be more useful.


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## Jamesy (May 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

I was in BestBuy the other day and was playing with an A7 - it is a really nice size. Are the S and R versions the identical form factor?


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## eml58 (May 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Jamesy said:


> I was in BestBuy the other day and was playing with an A7 - it is a really nice size. Are the S and R versions the identical form factor?



Yes they are, as far as I'm aware the only essential difference is the Sensor.


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## Rienzphotoz (May 22, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> eml58 said:
> 
> 
> > Rienzphotoz said:
> ...


Just bought the FE 55 f/1.8 and the FE 70-200 f/4 OSS lenses today ... and I agree with you about the 55, its a fantastic lens ... the 70-200 f/4 was surprise package, it is very light with very good build quality, makes it easy to travel with it.


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## AvTvM (May 23, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*

Sony FE 70-200/4 OSS is 80 grams HEAVIER and slightly LARGER than Canon EF 70-200 /4 L IS ... and delivers somewhat LESS IQ ... at 40% HIGHER price. ;-)


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## Dylan777 (May 23, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > eml58 said:
> ...



Your signature is getting out of controll... ;D Keep in mind, FE 16-35 f4 OS is right around the corner.


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## sdsr (May 23, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> Sony FE 70-200/4 OSS is 80 grams HEAVIER and slightly LARGER than Canon EF 70-200 /4 L IS ... and delivers somewhat LESS IQ ... at 40% HIGHER price. ;-)



Luckily, the Canon works very well attached to the Sony bodies - provided you don't mind the AF compromises.... (I'm coming to prefer manual focus, so it's not a problem for me.)


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## AvTvM (May 23, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



sdsr said:


> Luckily, the Canon works very well attached to the Sony bodies - provided you don't mind the AF compromises.... (I'm coming to prefer manual focus, so it's not a problem for me.)



I do - respectively i would - mind "AF compromises". I have not ever used a manual focus ring since about 1985 or so [when I got my first Minolta AF SLR] and will never go back to manual focusing. I'd prefer if there were lenses with top-notch AF-drive and full weathersealing, and devoid of any manual focus gear and focus ring. ;-)


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## Rienzphotoz (May 23, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



AvTvM said:


> Sony FE 70-200/4 OSS is 80 grams HEAVIER and slightly LARGER than Canon EF 70-200 /4 L IS ... and delivers somewhat LESS IQ ... at 40% HIGHER price. ;-)


Yes, the Sony FE 70-200/4 OSS is "80 grams HEAVIER and slightly LARGER than Canon EF 70-200 /4 L IS", but following are the reasons why I went with the Sony FE version:
[list type=decimal]
[*]I already have the EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS II, so I don't want another EF lens of the same FOL
[*]Although I really like the EF 70-200, if I want to use it on my a7 or a6000, I need to use my metabones adapter which takes away the weight & size advantage and not to mention slow AF
[*]Being a native lens the Sony FE 70-200 f/4 OSS auto focuses really fast and accurately like a machine gun on my a6000 
[/list]
So, for me, the above considerations are worth spending the extra money on the FE 70-200 f/4 OSS


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## Rienzphotoz (May 23, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Dylan777 said:


> Rienzphotoz said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...


 ;D ;D ... I do have my eyes on the upcoming FE 16-35 f/4 OSS, but I am seriously considering the 10-18 f/4 OSS - my reasons for that are:
I can have the 10-18 f/4 OSS mounted on a6000 and the 24-70 mounted on a7 with 55 f/1.8 & 70-200 f/4 OSS in the bag ... that will give me a very good range of 15mm to 300mm for any situation in just one small bag, especially when I'm out and about ... eventually when the MK II versions of a7/a7R come out, I will sell the 10-18 and get one of the MK II versions of a7/a7R and the FE 16-35 f/4 OSS ... lets see how that goes.


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## AvTvM (May 23, 2014)

*Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras*



Rienzphotoz said:


> Yes, the Sony FE 70-200/4 OSS is "80 grams HEAVIER and slightly LARGER than Canon EF 70-200 /4 L IS", but following are the reasons why I went with the Sony FE version:
> [list type=decimal]
> [*]I already have the EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS II, so I don't want another EF lens of the same FOL
> [*]Although I really like the EF 70-200, if I want to use it on my a7 or a6000, I need to use my metabones adapter which takes away the weight & size advantage and not to mention slow AF
> ...



I totally agree. Had i bought an A7/R i would also have purchased native lenses with at least halfway decent AF. However, i find sony lens pricing even more outrageous than canon's. Not only fe lenses but also other zeiss branded glass as well as almost all of the sony G lenses (a-mount). 

Lens choice is one more reason why i would really like to see and buy a canon FF MILC ... along with a) decent mid-price lenses and b) outstanding high-price L's ... Like 70-200 2.8 II and 4 is, 24-70 2.8 II and 4 IS ... Of course in a new native short flange distance mount.


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