# B&H Photo -- workers conditions



## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2015)

I was troubled to read the following story:

http://america.aljazeera.com/multimedia/2015/10/bh-workers-claim-discrimination-unsafe-standards1.html

...which was quickly picked up by The Phoblographer:

http://www.thephoblographer.com/2015/10/13/warehouse-workers-at-bh-photo-video-protest-unsafe-working-conditions/#.Vh0XPaJKg40

Some of the stories shared by the workers run the gamut from very believable difficult warehouse conditions (I worked in a few myself before college) to the downright deplorable are-you-f-ing-kidding-me sort of events. I encourage everyone to give it a read.

I buy photo gear in lots of places, but I'd say I'm a solid 80/20 at B&H/Amazon for big ticket items like camera bodies, lenses, flashes, etc. -- principally because of their return policies, responsive service, etc.

I will think long and hard about giving B&H my future business after reading this.

- A


----------



## jdramirez (Oct 13, 2015)

I didn't read it all, but what I did... Geesh...


----------



## turbo1168 (Oct 13, 2015)

Why does a company of this scale hire undocumented immigrants? Just to be able to pay them a pittance and abuse them with with long hours and dangerous or poor working conditions! I don't want to do business with a company that can't treat their employees with at least a minimum of respect.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2015)

I have no delusions that our amazing internet convenient world is fueled by 100% happy worker bees in idyllic workplaces, but seeing how the sausage is made is always unsettling.

But this story, if true, is rife with egregious OSHA and workplace violations -- unsafe work conditions, hellish hours without commensurate breaks, etc.

Not shockingly, the workers are trying to unionize:
http://lwcu.org/press-room/press-releases/b-h-photo-warehouse-workers/

- A


----------



## JonAustin (Oct 13, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> But this story, if true, is rife with egregious OSHA and workplace violations -- unsafe work conditions, hellish hours without commensurate breaks, etc.



The story, if true, is also rife with significant criminal activity by both the workers (the mere presence of these illegal aliens (the term "undocumented immigrants" makes me want to toss my lunch) within our borders is a violation of law) and the employers who hire them. I would expect the hiring companies to notify law enforcement of applicants who are determined to be illegals, but sadly, that's a waste of time in many parts of the country.



ahsanford said:


> Not shockingly, the workers are trying to unionize:
> http://lwcu.org/press-room/press-releases/b-h-photo-warehouse-workers/



_Of course_ these people who are in our country illegally are trying to unionize (with no fear of being deported by the attendant "raising of their profiles") ... (and I realize that not all the workers are illegals).


----------



## bluemoon (Oct 13, 2015)

not sure if it is relevant, but al jazeera reporting on jews might be biased. . .

pierre


----------



## JonAustin (Oct 13, 2015)

bluemoon said:


> not sure if it is relevant, but al jazeera reporting on jews might be biased. . .
> 
> pierre



Very relevant, I think. Al Jazeera is wholly owned by the Qatari government, and -- according to Wikipedia -- "Al Jazeera has been called a propaganda outlet for the Qatari government and its foreign policy, by analysts and by news reporters, including former Al Jazeera reporters. The network is sometimes perceived to have mainly Islamist perspectives, promoting the Muslim Brotherhood, and having a pro-Sunni and an anti-Shia bias in its reporting of regional issues."


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 13, 2015)

This type of press release often happens when Unions want to organize employees. They even hire protesters to make a show of it.

Why has only one news organization, and a highly biased one at that directly reported on it? Some posters on photography sites have repeated it, but they are merely spreading the single report that I could find. So far, web reports are just repeating the one report. I find this very suspicious, like it was arranged.


Here are some of the things I found in a online search for working conditions and employee complaints. There was not much aside from blogs parroting a single report.

http://www.indeed.com/cmp/B&H-Photo-Video/reviews?fcountry=US

http://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-B-and-H-Foto-and-Electronics-EI_IE141831.11,39.htm


----------



## jdramirez (Oct 13, 2015)

Before we get to indignant... We are typing our messages on phones made in slave Labour environments in China... And our cameras are made in factories that we wouldn't want to work at... It is tough...


----------



## unfocused (Oct 13, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> I have no delusions that our amazing internet convenient world is fueled by 100% happy worker bees in idyllic workplaces, but seeing how the sausage is made is always unsettling.



The worst part of all this is that it is our own fault.

The quest for ever lower prices. The desire to have the most at the least cost. The willingness to order online to save a few dollars and evade taxes. All of these things have a price and we are only kidding ourselves if we pretend they don't.

Go to a department store like Macy's. An item that retails for $60 is almost always discounted to around $30. Then, they'll add in special promotions, added discounts, etc., and it's usually around $15. Now, take a look at the shirt or sweater or pair of slacks or whatever and imagine the time it takes to make it. Subtract the cost of materials, the cost of shipping, packaging, warehousing, etc., and think about what is left to pay the individuals who actually make that article of clothing. 

And yet, are we willing to pay more? Of course not. We rationalize it away.

Now, I'm not pretending to be any different than anyone else. I'm just suggesting that the real source of the problem is ourselves.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 13, 2015)

jdramirez said:


> Before we get to indignant... We are typing our messages on phones made in slave Labour environments in China... And our cameras are made in factories that we wouldn't want to work at... It is tough...



Beginning workers and immigrants are often abused and employed for sub standard wages, and its been that way for a very long time. 

Its good to step back and look at working conditions, in this case, it seems to be a single source of complaints spreading from a labor organizing movement, so I'll reserve judgement. It just looks rigged right now.

There have been complaints about workers being promoted only from Hadisic Jewish ranks, long hours, etc. The bit not evacuating the building because of smoke coming from two trucks nearby seems a bit contrived. No one was in danger as the article tries to make out. Typical Union exaggeration. I've been a long time Union member, and seen things get carried to extremes such that even hard line members were embarrassed.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> This type of press release often happens when Unions want to organize employees. They even hire protesters to make a show of it.
> 
> Why has only one news organization, and a highly biased one at that directly reported on it? Some posters on photography sites have repeated it, but they are merely spreading the single report that I could find. So far, web reports are just repeating the one report. I find this very suspicious, like it was arranged.
> 
> ...



I'm not naive - I have zero doubt that this is part and parcel for a unionization push. That doesn't mean the allegations aren't true.

At the same time, do you really think an hourly undocumented worker is going to go through public channels like a workplace review site to vent their frustrations, even anonymously? That seems more of a forum for sales/office personnel.

Al-Jazeera is a muck-raking expose organization for certain, but it's not comically biased. They could have made this story about B&H's front-and-center Jewish culture and _didn't_. From what I've read, the photographer from this story is Jewish himself. 

Personally, I think one of three things will occur:


B&H will sue Al-Jazeera if they are making this up.
B&H will publish a statement defending itself if some of it is true but there were extenuating circumstances or if AJ has rendered something that we know happened in an overly negative manner.
B&H will say nothing, which will invite other investigative journalists to dig deeper / corroborate the story.

In all three cases, it's in B&H's best interests to act immediately before this story gets legs.

- A


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 13, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > This type of press release often happens when Unions want to organize employees. They even hire protesters to make a show of it.
> ...



I'm of the opinion that B&H should not be hiring undocumented workers. I must have passed over that in the article. There is a huge fine for that, and Unions certainly do not defend them.

I tried to find complaints online but there were none.

I'm just puzzled as to why other major news sites haven't repeated the story. For now, it could be too new, or that they have higher standards, and I do not know which.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2015)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'm of the opinion that B&H should not be hiring undocumented workers. I must have passed over that in the article. There is a huge fine for that, and Unions certainly do not defend them.
> 
> I tried to find complaints online but there were none.
> 
> I'm just puzzled as to why other major news sites haven't repeated the story. For now, it could be too new, or that they have higher standards, and I do not know which.



Yep: _"The men, many of whom are undocumented, testify of suffering from kidney stones, dizziness and fainting after being denied access to water or bathroom breaks."_

And you are 100% correct. Until this is corroborated or (at minimum) picked up by a 2nd news agency, this is only hearsay for now. 

- A


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 13, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > I'm of the opinion that B&H should not be hiring undocumented workers. I must have passed over that in the article. There is a huge fine for that, and Unions certainly do not defend them.
> ...



Labor unions are always hiring pickets to parade in front of a local business, carrying unfair signs and trying to pressure shoppers from entering. They try to give the impression that the pickets are employees of the business rather than employees of the Labor Union. This makes me a pessimist when I see pickets. Sometmes it works, but shoppers are a lot smarter now.

Spreading of false information over social networks seems to be the current best bang for the buck.


----------



## Hjalmarg1 (Oct 13, 2015)

As usual, oppressing the labour workers and violating the laws, Where is OSHA? or they are just being protecting the millionaires?
If what is presented by Laundry Workers Center is true, they should be prosecuted.

And I have to confess that I purchase most of my new gear from B&H and Adorama, what a pitty.


----------



## chromophore (Oct 13, 2015)

It is amazing how a single uncorroborated report, short on facts and first-hand evidence, has brought out various underlying political biases on *all* sides.

Well, in retrospect, not so amazing.

I would like to recommend that either this entire thread be closed down, or if not, that at least people should take a wait-and-see approach rather than projecting their own opinions and speculations as to what is going on or what it says about Qatar, Jews, Muslims, immigration illegal or otherwise, labor unions, consumer greed, corporate greed, labor practices in China or labor practices in general, and the availability of fake Hitler mustaches for this Halloween season.


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 13, 2015)

chromophore said:


> It is amazing how a single uncorroborated report, short on facts and first-hand evidence, has brought out various underlying political biases on *all* sides.
> 
> Well, in retrospect, not so amazing.
> 
> I would like to recommend that either this entire thread be closed down, or if not, that at least people should take a wait-and-see approach rather than projecting their own opinions and speculations as to what is going on or what it says about Qatar, Jews, Muslims, immigration illegal or otherwise, labor unions, consumer greed, corporate greed, labor practices in China or labor practices in general, and the availability of fake Hitler mustaches for this Halloween season.


+1

And I would also like to say, "never trust someone who doesn't have cat hair on their suit"


----------



## NancyP (Oct 13, 2015)

I am waiting for a local NYC news source to report on this. 

Would it surprise me if the B and H warehouse ran like the Amazon warehouses, which are notoriously hard places to work (risk being fired for bathroom breaks, etc). No. In most businesses the labor situation goes to the lowest common denominator. Non-visa'ed foreign workers (AKA undocumented immigrants, "illegal aliens", etc)? Let INS sort that out - after they sort out the cabbies, restaurant workers, and zillion other non-visa'ed foreign workers in the five boroughs. Might Al-Jazeera be a little hostile toward a Hasidic Jewish business - if the business owners are big supporters of West Bank settlements, sure, Al-Jazeera might not give the business the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## Hjalmarg1 (Oct 13, 2015)

This is not the first time that B&H Photo has been suit for improper working conditions and unfair treatment.
I just removed the items I had in my cart ready to buy and transferred them to Adorama. It's just me and I don't pretend anybody to do the same.


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Oct 13, 2015)

This situation needs to be investigated and if guilty, punishments levied.

But right now we are only reading one side of the story.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2015)

chromophore said:


> It is amazing how a single uncorroborated report, short on facts and first-hand evidence, has brought out various underlying political biases on *all* sides.
> 
> Well, in retrospect, not so amazing.
> 
> I would like to recommend that either this entire thread be closed down, or if not, that at least people should take a wait-and-see approach rather than projecting their own opinions and speculations as to what is going on or what it says about Qatar, Jews, Muslims, immigration illegal or otherwise, labor unions, consumer greed, corporate greed, labor practices in China or labor practices in general, and the availability of fake Hitler mustaches for this Halloween season.



A number of us have been clear that we need to hear from a 2nd news organization before this starts to look real.

But people blasting AJA for anti-semitic intent are almost certainly out of line. The author is American, for starters, and the photographer is Jewish man from New York. I see _activism_ at play here -- nothing more.

But let's wait and see. Right now it's just re-linking + forum commentary at this stage. But if NYT, WaPo, Reuters, AP, etc. pick this up, look out. 

- A


----------



## AlanF (Oct 13, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Personally, I think one of three things will occur:
> 
> 
> B&H will sue Al-Jazeera if they are making this up.
> ...



I don't think your advice is good. First, B&H won't sue because to win a defamation case in the USA, unlike in the UK, you have to prove that the libellers acted either negligently or with actual malice, and that is usually nigh impossible to prove. So, libel suits are very rare - the usual winners in libel cases are the lawyers.

Secondly, when dealing with organizations of low repute like AJ, ignoring them is the recommended course of action. It's only when a reputable organization starts making claims that defence is required.


----------



## YuengLinger (Oct 13, 2015)

Unions, Arab/Israeli, Moslem/Jewish, illegal immigration, news media bias...

Isn't there a critical mass of flashpoints here to close this thread as political? It is only a matter of time before it gets ugly.

Please, mods, there has to be a way to keep us posted on relevant business issues without risking a lot of hostility with this type of thread.

I've said it before: CR is a sanctuary, a place to learn and have good-natured debates about photography. At least that's what I've thought.


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2015)

And something remotely resembling legitimacy -- PetaPixel -- has now picked up the story:

http://petapixel.com/2015/10/13/bh-slammed-with-accusations-of-mistreatment-and-discrimination/

Again, just a re-link and update. No pickups from other news agencies or added evidence.

I was expecting folks who might court B&H dollars to avoid this like the plague, but they surprised me here.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Oct 13, 2015)

YuengLinger said:


> Unions, Arab/Israeli, Moslem/Jewish, illegal immigration, news media bias...
> 
> Isn't there a critical mass of flashpoints here to close this thread as political? It is only a matter of time before it gets ugly.
> 
> ...



Respectfully, I started this thread devoid of any opinion on:

Al-Jazeera vs. Jewish businesses

Free markets vs. organized labor

I just want to share visibility to the story, find any corroboration / rebuttal to it folks may have found, and possibly discuss the criteria we use when we choose our photography retailers. Nothing more.

I think that topic is 100% appropriate for this forum and should continue.

And with respect to our moderators, the topic is radioactive for posting as a CR story as CR may use / may want to use B&H as a sponsor someday. A forum is the place to discuss this.

- A


----------



## YuengLinger (Oct 13, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> And something remotely resembling legitimacy -- PetaPixel -- has now picked up the story:
> 
> http://petapixel.com/2015/10/13/bh-slammed-with-accusations-of-mistreatment-and-discrimination/
> 
> ...



How is a "re-link and update" anything like confirmation?

Your posts are fanning the flames of a little fire you chose to start here. I'm not questioning your motives, just observing. You seem to be on a mission. 

Which is a great reason to lock the thread. Hopefully B&H will make a statement, and it will get reposted just as often as the accusations--for balance.

I have no affiliation with B&H, other than as a customer, but I really like to see CR remain free of political controversy, racial controversy, religious controversy...And this thread is cleverly attempting to spark them all.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 13, 2015)

I find it disturbing that so many want to shut down debate and discussion.

The discussion has been fair and not in the least bit out-of-hand. Life is controversial. Get over it.

That said, I fully expect this thread to get shut down. Censorship is beloved on this forum.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 13, 2015)

In the UK where you don't have to prove malice to win a libel case, people have been successfully sued for re-tweeting a libellous tweet on Twitter. 

We are in the middle of an unpleasant episode here where a politician, from the safety of parliamentary privilege, had vilely accused a dying former senior politician of child abuse and rape, based on unsubstantiated evidence, which was subsequently ruled out by the police as unreliable (and the dying man not told). The unpleasant politician isn't backing down and is claiming he was in the right to hound in the interest of the "victims". It's best to be sure of ones facts before pressing a case.


----------



## YuengLinger (Oct 13, 2015)

unfocused said:


> I find it disturbing that so many want to shut down debate and discussion.
> 
> The discussion has been fair and not in the least bit out-of-hand. Life is controversial. Get over it.
> 
> That said, I fully expect this thread to get shut down. Censorship is beloved on this forum.



It's not about what is said, it's about where the discussion is held. A non-political gear rumors site has a right to remain non-political and civil.

There are thousands of websites to discuss politics endlessly.

Other than either spreading unsubstantiated accusations and generating speculation, what is the point of the thread? What information was provided by the OP or any who followed that informs customers of the validity of claims made by a union looking for leverage going into a battle with B&H?

We don't know what efforts the reporter made to get B&H's side of the story. The "several attempts" could have been a few phone calls during a lunch hour.

The OP, just based on a one-sided story, has told us he/she is going to reconsider doing business with B&H. ahsanford, did you email B&H with your concerns?

All of these aspects, the flashpoints, the bias of the people telling their story as part of a union campaign, and, sadly, the source of the story, make this a political thread.

If CR wants political threads, fine--just restrict them to the appropriate sub-forums.


----------

