# Filters



## ray5 (Oct 4, 2014)

Hi,
I have been toying with the idea of getting some ND filters for a while. I recently changed my main lens to a 82mm filter size. I have the B&W Kaessman MRC Nano XS Pro 77mm CPL. Even though I have other lenses with the 77mm filter size my main use of this filter is with the lens which I changed. So my options are to get a CPL with a 82mm size, sell my 77mm one and use a 82mm with a step up ring or buy Lee filters. Though my CPL is pretty new I know there may not be much resale value. Getting a new 82mm one is $200 or so! 
My questions:
-I understand that getting into the Lee system is going to be much more expensive in the long run but will it be a better investment in the long run? 
- Is the learning curve steep?
- Which ND filters would you recommend? I think the Big Stopper is a must?
- Graduated or not?
- Soft or hard edge?
Any advice or resources is appreciated.
Thanks,
Ray


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## sagittariansrock (Oct 4, 2014)

While the (Lee) square filter system is more versatile it is also much more cumbersome.
I wouldn't use it just for the sake of using CPLs.
I have the Lee filter system but for polarizing, I use screw-in B&H filters. 
So, 
1. For dedicated CPL use I would use screw-in filters.
2. I suggest keeping both 77mm and 82mm filters- I have done so as I cannot use the 82+step up ring with the hood (necessary for protection and flare for my 70-200).
3. Lee is a great system for long shutter speeds. 
4. I have used the ND grads less mostly due to my unfamiliarity and the somewhat steep learning curve (in terms of practice needed). It is less of an issue with solid NDs. However, I think I need a screw-in 6 stop or so will make shooting wide open with my primes a lot easier- square filters, again, are too cumbersome.
5. The first filter I would buy for the Lee system is indeed the big stopper. Second choice would be the new little stopper (6 stops I think). 
6. People recommend 2 stop hard ND and 3 stop soft ND to begin with. I found that was sufficient for me, but then I don't use ND grads that much yet.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 5, 2014)

^^ +1 on almost all of that. 

I have 77mm and 82mm Käsemann CPLs, 10-stop NDs and Lee WA adapters. I have step-up rings for lenses that I filter infrequently (67mm for the 100L and 70-300L, 72mm for 35L/85L/135L). I also have a 72mm 3-stop ND for shooting with the 'holy trinity' primes wide open (I find 3-stops sufficient even for f/1.2 on a sunny day).


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## ray5 (Oct 5, 2014)

Ok, so both of you are suggesting that I get the 82mm CPL and Lee if I want to experiment with them? I looked at some videos and articles on line, looks like there is a pretty steep learning curve for them? I have a trip planned for Southern UT/Northern AZ next year and found on reading that ND filters are almost a must for that landscape. I want to practice for a while so by the time that time comes around I can be comfortable. But, it's a substantial investment in money as well. But I think I agree with both of you to get another CPL as that is my most used lens and using a step up/down ring will be a pain and of course I will not be able to use the hood, though using a hood with a CPL is quite the pain as well. 
Are there good and reliable resources on how to use the Lee filters? Thanks


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## Vivid Color (Oct 5, 2014)

ray5 said:


> Ok, so both of you are suggesting that I get the 82mm CPL and Lee if I want to experiment with them? I looked at some videos and articles on line, looks like there is a pretty steep learning curve for them? I have a trip planned for Southern UT/Northern AZ next year and found on reading that ND filters are almost a must for that landscape. I want to practice for a while so by the time that time comes around I can be comfortable. But, it's a substantial investment in money as well. But I think I agree with both of you to get another CPL as that is my most used lens and using a step up/down ring will be a pain and of course I will not be able to use the hood, though using a hood with a CPL is quite the pain as well.
> Are there good and reliable resources on how to use the Lee filters? Thanks



The Lee website has a good number of videos on how to use their filters. Beyond that, I'm sure that YouTube has a number of videos as well. I bought the Lee foundation kit and several filters--some Lee, some Hitech--this last summer. I had never used them before and while I found the videos useful, nothing beats learning like actual practice. So watch some videos and go out somewhere to practice. 

By the way, be sure to check the prices out at 2filter.com against the other usual places to buy such equipment.


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## AcutancePhotography (Oct 5, 2014)

Look at Marumi filters. I have been very satisfied with the quality of their filters. For ND, I have a vari at the largest filter size I have and use step up rings. Works well for my type of photography.


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## ray5 (Oct 5, 2014)

ok. I have the Singh Ray Vari ND filter screw in type. Has it's uses but not as versatile. Super expensive. I bought it a few years ago but have used it very few times.


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## dppaskewitz (Oct 5, 2014)

ray5 said:


> Ok, so both of you are suggesting that I get the 82mm CPL and Lee if I want to experiment with them? I looked at some videos and articles on line, looks like there is a pretty steep learning curve for them? I have a trip planned for Southern UT/Northern AZ next year and found on reading that ND filters are almost a must for that landscape. I want to practice for a while so by the time that time comes around I can be comfortable. But, it's a substantial investment in money as well. But I think I agree with both of you to get another CPL as that is my most used lens and using a step up/down ring will be a pain and of course I will not be able to use the hood, though using a hood with a CPL is quite the pain as well.
> Are there good and reliable resources on how to use the Lee filters? Thanks



I found using the ND grads to be fairly intuitive, especially using live view. Once you have the Lee holder on and slip in the grad, you can see the effect very clearly in live view. So, positioning isn't really a problem. And you can get a sense fairly easily of how many stops you want to, for example, darken the sky. If you get into Lee, you may want to pick up one or two soft grads for your planned trip. I understand they are more useful for irregular horizons, as you will likely find in Utah/Arizona. Hard grads work better for flat horizons (oceans, flat deserts). (Disclosure: although I now own a soft grad, I have only used hard grads so far). I too recommend getting the CPL that fits the lens. And keeping your 77mm for other lenses. If you are shooting where you need/want the CPL, you will really want to have one on all the lenses you are shooting with to save swap time. (Assumes you are using the CPL without the Lee system, which happens for me fairly often). One issue you will need to solve is how to CPL the Lee system. One of Lee's ways is with a 105mm CPL mounted on the filter holder. There are multiple threads here discussing that method and vignetting with wider lenses. I haven't sprung for the 105 CPL yet, but likely will soon. (It allows independent rotation of the Lee filters and the CPL, which is necessary. I have been putting the CPL between the lens and the Lee holder - that really doesn't work well at all).


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## sagittariansrock (Oct 6, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> I also have a 72mm 3-stop ND for shooting with the 'holy trinity' primes wide open (I find 3-stops sufficient even for f/1.2 on a sunny day).



Thanks, Neuro. That was very useful information. A follow up question. I see both MRC and non-MRC B+W 3-stop ND filters. Is an MRC one worth the almost double price? Thanks!



ray5 said:


> Ok, so both of you are suggesting that I get the 82mm CPL and Lee if I want to experiment with them? I looked at some videos and articles on line, looks like there is a pretty steep learning curve for them? I have a trip planned for Southern UT/Northern AZ next year and found on reading that ND filters are almost a must for that landscape. I want to practice for a while so by the time that time comes around I can be comfortable. But, it's a substantial investment in money as well. But I think I agree with both of you to get another CPL as that is my most used lens and using a step up/down ring will be a pain and of course I will not be able to use the hood, though using a hood with a CPL is quite the pain as well.
> Are there good and reliable resources on how to use the Lee filters? Thanks



As Graham said, nothing beats practice. 
You will notice that using a square filter system isn't technically challenging. The main issue, however, is doing it efficiently and quickly- otherwise, it will make you lose great moments and opportunities. Also, doing it at home is much easier that doing it in the field. 
So if you get the Lee system then just take a weekend and practice shooting boring (or at least familiar) scenes from your balcony. That Big stopper gives me the heebijeebies when handling it- I am forever worried about dropping it.



 dppaskewitz said:


> I have been putting the CPL between the lens and the Lee holder - that really doesn't work well at all.



Totally agree. I had used that set up and was super happy that I could just turn the CP-L by turning the Lee adapter, until I came back home and realized I don't have anywhere to grip so I could separate the CP-L from the adapter. It just kept rotating at the junction between the two CP-L rings. 
Finally, I had to put some gaffer's tape along the CP-L, preventing the two rings from rotating about each other, and I was able to get the Lee adapter off. It was maddening!


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 6, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > I also have a 72mm 3-stop ND for shooting with the 'holy trinity' primes wide open (I find 3-stops sufficient even for f/1.2 on a sunny day).
> ...



I got the regular (single-coated) version. The MRC coating serves two purposes. One, the 'multi' part reduces reflection and therefore increases light transmission – since the point of an ND is to _reduce_ light transmission, it seems silly to pay extra for a multilayer coating. Second, the 'resistant' part makes it easier to clean – I tend not to use NDs in harsh environments, and I find the single-coated filters are easy enough to clean when needed (rarely need more than a rocket blower).


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## ray5 (Oct 6, 2014)

Thanks. I am intimidated by a new system. A couple of times in the past I have ordered and cancelled the Lee Big stopper. The convenience of having a screw in type of filter is too much. But when now I have different sized filter needs then I think it is beginning to make some sense. Convenience versus cost. And then as all of you have pointed out what is vital, time and practice. I know I have more money invested than time and I need to reverse that. Putting money is the easier part. I have had the 5D MK III for about 2 years now and even now learning new things about it.


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## lion rock (Oct 6, 2014)

+1 on 2filter.com
Very nice people to talk to on the phone.
Bought my Lee Big Stopper, Lee GNDs from them with the foundation kit and step up ring (77-82mm). 
-r




Vivid Color said:


> ray5 said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, be sure to check the prices out at 2filter.com against the other usual places to buy such equipment.


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## Jemlnlx (Oct 6, 2014)

I recently became interested in filter in the past year or so. I decided to use the screw in type. I started out with Tiffen CPL which I love. (I chose screw in because I figured that I can buy 77mm filter that I can use both on my 17-40 and 24-70 v1 lenses) In the recent future I have toyed around with ND filters. I bought a Hoya 9-stop ND filter which I chose over the B&w at the time due to the price difference at the time (75$ vs. 105$). I then purchased a basic tiffen 0.6 graduated ND filter. more recently I have started to stack the filter and am pretty happy with the results. The first shot was taken with the 24-70mm with all three of the above filters stacked while the second shot was taken with the 17-40 with the two ND filter stacked. Experiment and enjoy!!! I do plan on switching over the lee filters soon.


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## ray5 (Oct 6, 2014)

Jemlnlx said:


> I recently became interested in filter in the past year or so. I decided to use the screw in type. I started out with Tiffen CPL which I love. (I chose screw in because I figured that I can buy 77mm filter that I can use both on my 17-40 and 24-70 v1 lenses) In the recent future I have toyed around with ND filters. I bought a Hoya 9-stop ND filter which I chose over the B&w at the time due to the price difference at the time (75$ vs. 105$). I then purchased a basic tiffen 0.6 graduated ND filter. more recently I have started to stack the filter and am pretty happy with the results. The first shot was taken with the 24-70mm with all three of the above filters stacked while the second shot was taken with the 17-40 with the two ND filter stacked. Experiment and enjoy!!! I do plan on switching over the lee filters soon.


Nice pictures. Thanks for sharing


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## ray5 (Oct 6, 2014)

Thanks



lion rock said:


> +1 on 2filter.com
> Very nice people to talk to on the phone.
> Bought my Lee Big Stopper, Lee GNDs from them with the foundation kit and step up ring (77-82mm).
> -r
> ...


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## lintoni (Oct 6, 2014)

Jemlnlx said:


> I recently became interested in filter in the past year or so. I decided to use the screw in type. I started out with Tiffen CPL which I love. (I chose screw in because I figured that I can buy 77mm filter that I can use both on my 17-40 and 24-70 v1 lenses) In the recent future I have toyed around with ND filters. I bought a Hoya 9-stop ND filter which I chose over the B&w at the time due to the price difference at the time (75$ vs. 105$). I then purchased a basic tiffen 0.6 graduated ND filter. more recently I have started to stack the filter and am pretty happy with the results. The first shot was taken with the 24-70mm with all three of the above filters stacked while the second shot was taken with the 17-40 with the two ND filter stacked. Experiment and enjoy!!! I do plan on switching over the lee filters soon.


I do use regular screw in CPLs, and can see the utility of solid NDs - but would never get a screw in Graduated ND as they're totally inflexible. You're compelled to compose to account for the filter's transition from clear to graduated, whereas the transition should be where you want it to be for your composition.


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## ray5 (Oct 6, 2014)

I went ahead and bought a second screw in CPL for my 82mm lens.
I can understand screw in solid ND filters but screw in grads don't make sense to me. And if indeed a grad. is needed why not go with the Lee type filters for both solid and graduated filters? The only reason I can see of not doing it is for the one I did, convenience and time. If one could get away by solids only then the screw in type might makes sense.
My other questions is,
Can software replace filter effects? I am from the old school and want to get it right in camera but I remember seeing some discussions here that some folks had mentioned that pretty much any filter effect can be replicated with software including Polarizers if you are good at it. Though for me it makes little difference as I am not savvy with PS anyway :-[
Thanks


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 6, 2014)

CPL effects cannot really be replicated in post, nor can the long shutter speeds achieved with ND filters. It's debatable with grad NDs, post processing can be better in some cases (complex horizons), grad NDs better in others (movement in scene requiring a one-shot capture).


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## Jemlnlx (Oct 6, 2014)

lintoni said:


> Jemlnlx said:
> 
> 
> > I recently became interested in filter in the past year or so. I decided to use the screw in type. I started out with Tiffen CPL which I love. (I chose screw in because I figured that I can buy 77mm filter that I can use both on my 17-40 and 24-70 v1 lenses) In the recent future I have toyed around with ND filters. I bought a Hoya 9-stop ND filter which I chose over the B&w at the time due to the price difference at the time (75$ vs. 105$). I then purchased a basic tiffen 0.6 graduated ND filter. more recently I have started to stack the filter and am pretty happy with the results. The first shot was taken with the 24-70mm with all three of the above filters stacked while the second shot was taken with the 17-40 with the two ND filter stacked. Experiment and enjoy!!! I do plan on switching over the lee filters soon.
> ...



Totally agree...This biggest setback of screw on graduated ND filter...most if not all are set to the middle so if you want that 1/3 of the foreground 2 stops lighter that the wonderfully clouded sky...it's not gonna happen.


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## NancyP (Oct 6, 2014)

Another recommendation for www.2filter.com . Re: graduated neutral density filters: Soft grad is more forgiving of irregularities in the horizon, and thus easier to use. I talked with the owner of www.2filter.com, he recommended a 2 stop soft grad for starters, which seems about right - I might get a 3 stop soft grad at some point. Yes, you can use a software gradient tool. I have found that the (ahem) dynamic range issues of Sigma Foveon sensor and Canon cameras are such that if there is an extreme DR, the extra 2 stops of filter can provide a little leeway on post. CPLs are to remove reflections that can't be removed by other means - polarized light is a specific form of light that can be blocked or passed preferentially by the CPL but not by neutral density filters (which block non-polarized and polarized light identically). So, CPLs are good for water reflections (see under the surface of the water), reflections of sky off leaves, and many other situations, not just for making the sky a bit darker. That is also why CPLs can be useful on UWA lenses - just make sure there isn't a wide swath of sky in the frame, or you will see variation in the CPL effect on the sky based on degrees angle from the sun.

For Lee wide angle filters: In my searching on fora, I have found various horror stories of people trying to screw in the Lee wide angle adapter in front of the CPL, and then not being able to separate filter from adapter because the front half of the filter has disappeared into the recess of the adapter - nothing to grip. On looking at the adapter, there is a big recess, so DON'T DO IT. One can buy a larger CPL to fit on the front of the Lee filter holder.


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## ray5 (Oct 6, 2014)

Thanks for the replies.
So, what all do I need to get started?
I have lenses with 77mm and 82mm filter sizes. The big stopper being a given, what else would you recommend to start with? Glass versus resin?


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## lintoni (Oct 6, 2014)

To get started?

Lee Foundation Kit; 77mm and 82mm adapters (I recommend making sure you get the wide angle adapters - reduces the chance of vignetting).

Glass or resin?

http://ericherrmann.com/news/lee-filters-resin-vs-pro-glass/

That said, all my graduated NDs and solid NDs, apart from the big stopper, are resin. There may be a performance hit from stacking resin filters, but if I'm stacking, I'd have maybe big stopper + grad ND + CPL, ie one resin filter, out of the three. Weighing the expense vs performance thing meant that I chose resin, what you go for is up to you!

Grads come in hard and soft varieties, the hard ones are good if you have a definite linear horizon (eg seas, plains), the soft ones are better if you've got an even one (trees, hills). A 2 stop (0.6) one is probably most useful if you are just lookin to get one or two filters, to start with. Getting kits of filters (eg 1 + 2 + 3 stop filters) works out cheaper, if you are going to use them.


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## sagittariansrock (Oct 6, 2014)

ray5 said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> So, what all do I need to get started?
> I have lenses with 77mm and 82mm filter sizes. The big stopper being a given, what else would you recommend to start with? Glass versus resin?



1. I'd say resin because IMO the difference in IQ is negligible, the peace of mind not worrying about breaking the filter (as you WILL experience with the Big Stopper) is priceless.
2. The 82 mm wide angle adapter and either a step up 77-82mm ring or the 77mm adapter.
3. The filter holder (aka the Foundation kit)
4. You can use grad ND filters just by holding them with your hand in front of the lens (not possible with the Big Stopper for obvious reasons). Another option is getting them from the Filter Dude via ebay. I use these are they are as good as Lee.
5. 0.3 soft grad and 0.2 hard grad, the latter isn't strictly as necessary. I strongly recommend a reverse grad filter if you plan to shoot sunsets.
Mind you, HDR and PP can replicate grad filters in many cases, as Neuro said, and better in some. And a B+W 10 stop filter is arguably as good as the big stopper from various reviews I've heard. So that, and a step up ring might be reason enough for you to forget the whole Lee filter thing. It IS cumbersome. 
Good luck with whatever you do, and please share the results (pics).

P.S. Edited to reflect the correction by Lintoni


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## lintoni (Oct 6, 2014)

The Foundation Kit does not come with the adapter rings.


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## ray5 (Oct 7, 2014)

Thanks a lot everone! Don't know yet whether I will be brave enough to pull the trigger but if I do I know what to get. I have a bad feeling that I am going to!!! :


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## sagittariansrock (Oct 8, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Ah, thanks for the advice. A non-MRC B+W filter is being shipped to me as I write 

By the way, has anyone used or heard about (not heard of, mind you, but ABOUT them from someone who has actually used it) the Haida filters?

http://www.haidaphoto.com/en/products.php?tid=115

There seems to be quite a few reviews about them, and they are quite positive.


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