# EOS C500 Mark II Going Higher Than 4K? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 22, 2015)

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We’re told that the Cinema EOS C500 Mark II is going to be announced some time in mid 2016 and that the camera will likely shoot at a resolution “well above 4K”. Canon “knows it was very late to the 4K market” and does not want to be considered late to the 6K+ world.</p>
<p>The form factor of the camera may change as well, as we’ve heard constant rumors of Canon doing a shoulder style camera in the Cinema EOS line.</p>
<p>The C500 was announced in August of 2012, which was nearly 8 months after the C300. By most accounts the C500 didn’t sell all that well, unlike the C300 which exceeded expectations. It stands to reason that it’ll have to be a more advanced product to justify the price and to have any hope of competing with ARRI.</p>
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## sanj (Apr 22, 2015)

I can't stop laughing.


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## leGreve (Apr 22, 2015)

Going to be another nice try from Canon..... hell, even the C300, which won't ship until sometime late summer, is being outshined by Blackmagic Design's Ursa Mini camera which costs HALF.

Too much money thinking, too little innovation and customer understanding. The old "let's cover as many bases with mediocrity as humanly possible", instead of making a few very good items at a competitive price point.

Thankfully Canon lenses are easily used on other systems.


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## Khnnielsen (Apr 22, 2015)

Making a 6/8K camera isn't enough to compete with Arri. Just ask Red. 

It will properly be too expensive for the indie filmmakers, and I can imagen that the DPs on big budget productions are very invested in the Arri system. 

So where does this leave the C500?


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## gsealy (Apr 22, 2015)

leGreve said:


> Going to be another nice try from Canon..... hell, even the C300, which won't ship until sometime late summer, is being outshined by Blackmagic Design's Ursa Mini camera which costs HALF.
> 
> Too much money thinking, too little innovation and customer understanding. The old "let's cover as many bases with mediocrity as humanly possible", instead of making a few very good items at a competitive price point.
> 
> Thankfully Canon lenses are easily used on other systems.



Yes, the BMD URSA mini is looking pretty good right now. Plus, the sensor is upgradable. Suppose, BMD has a 6K upgradable sensor unit that can be installed? Canon C500 killer, is what it would be.


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## leGreve (Apr 22, 2015)

gsealy said:


> leGreve said:
> 
> 
> > Going to be another nice try from Canon..... hell, even the C300, which won't ship until sometime late summer, is being outshined by Blackmagic Design's Ursa Mini camera which costs HALF.
> ...


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## drs (Apr 22, 2015)

Sounds a better try this time. (4K for 4K delivery with a "Bayer Array" isn't cutting it, never will, so 6K is a good idea ;o) They obviously listen.

I'm curious about the results.

But it might be close to a RED Scarlet Dragon in terms of investment (am I wrong?)
So, not a consideration here to buy a C500 at all.


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## sirbarton (Apr 22, 2015)

leGreve said:


> Going to be another nice try from Canon..... hell, even the C300, which won't ship until sometime late summer, is being outshined by Blackmagic Design's Ursa Mini camera which costs HALF.
> 
> Too much money thinking, too little innovation and customer understanding. The old "let's cover as many bases with mediocrity as humanly possible", instead of making a few very good items at a competitive price point.
> 
> Thankfully Canon lenses are easily used on other systems.



Has anyone seen footage from the Ursa Mini yet? We had to return several black magic 4K cameras because of bad highlight performance and glitchy firmware. It's frankly crazy to say that the Ursa mini is going to "outshine" the C300 Mk2 when nobody has had their hands on either in real world situations.

I'm actually in the market for a couple cameras for an upcoming documentary and I'm looking at the Ursa mini with the new sensor, but will likely get a couple C300 mark 1s for a fair price of $6999 or under. Most productions still don't need or desire 4k. 

I agree that the original C300 was initially overpriced, but it's a great camera and I expect the mark 2 to be another success. There are so many attributes to consider when purchasing a camera and frankly the reason the Canon C300 outsells the black magics is because it's reliable and built by people who understand what you need in the field.


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## tyger11 (Apr 23, 2015)

gsealy said:


> leGreve said:
> 
> 
> > Going to be another nice try from Canon..... hell, even the C300, which won't ship until sometime late summer, is being outshined by Blackmagic Design's Ursa Mini camera which costs HALF.
> ...



The sensor on the Ursa Mini is NOT upgradable - only the Ursa sensor is, sorry. BUT, that new 4.6K sensor available in the mini IS an upgrade option for existing Ursa owners (and the updated Ursa is of course available with it). FYI.


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## leGreve (Apr 23, 2015)

sirbarton said:


> leGreve said:
> 
> 
> > Going to be another nice try from Canon..... hell, even the C300, which won't ship until sometime late summer, is being outshined by Blackmagic Design's Ursa Mini camera which costs HALF.
> ...



Theres one ripped video on YT...
https://youtu.be/hYjtpsf64WU

Looks pretty damn good to me.


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 23, 2015)

Canon have to completely redesign the C500 to have a cat in hells chance of competing with Arri the Alexa iS the benchmark currently period. The BM URSA I've never seen on any serious TV show or feature that domain is carved up between Red & Arri with a sprinkling of C300/500 usually on second or third units. 
Canon will also face Arri Alexa replacement in 2016 so don't bet the farm too quick on the C500 Arri maybe more expensive but it's almost guaranteed to work and be approved by all broadcasters.


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## bgoyette (Apr 23, 2015)

One obvious direction for the C500 mark ii would be to take it full frame. All the Cinema EOS lenses are designed for it (let's remember that Canon has a history of looking forward with their lens designs--with things like 50mp still camera following a redesign of a significant range of Canon Glass), and full frame would put them on the same ground as Red and sit between Alexa/Amira and the new 65mm Alexa. They could take the tech from the sensor from the C300II and scale it up to full frame and get 6K+ out of it, and then offer a crop mode for EF-S and super35mm lenses. Just a thought. 

In reality, I think we're going to see something more ergonomically like the Alexa or F55 with a proper viewfinder. Realistically anything more than 4k is probably a non starter in the market Canon is after. Better 4k is more likely the direction they will go. Ya gotta love how everyone is talking 6k/8k as the next wave, when 4k has almost no support with the general public (or even in the theatrical distribution system short of a few select theaters).


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## Tugela (Apr 23, 2015)

leGreve said:


> Going to be another nice try from Canon..... hell, even the C300, which won't ship until sometime late summer, is being outshined by Blackmagic Design's Ursa Mini camera which costs HALF.
> 
> Too much money thinking, too little innovation and customer understanding. The old "let's cover as many bases with mediocrity as humanly possible", instead of making a few very good items at a competitive price point.
> 
> Thankfully Canon lenses are easily used on other systems.



To be fair, the BM products are more like hack designs and hardly quality products. If you want a solid product it costs money to produce that, A camera is more than just a sensor and a lens mount. BM cameras are basically a sensor in a box where costs are cut by using off the shelf components and sticking them all together. Something that is holistically custom designed is obviously going to cost more.


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## jeffa4444 (Apr 23, 2015)

BM URSA uses CMOSIS CMV12000 sensor the same sensor is used in their BM Cinema camera Id love to measure their 15 stop claim my guess is it will not be 15 stops in real world shooting it will be less. 
5.5um pixel pitch as opposed to Arri at around 7.8um who also claim 15 stops we measure cameras with the same device Arri made to test their cameras its very accurate.


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## Peer (Apr 24, 2015)

Khnnielsen said:


> Making a 6/8K camera isn't enough to compete with Arri. Just ask Red.



Too soon to tell -- the 8k RED Weapon might even give Arri run of its money. 

-- peer


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## Peer (Apr 24, 2015)

bgoyette said:


> One obvious direction for the C500 mark ii would be to take it full frame.



This is also a point I'd make -- Canon has a huge full frame lens arsenal which will fit perfectly with full-sensor cameras. I bet Canon is in the midst of strategizing when it comes to their hi-end cameras. 



> Ya gotta love how everyone is talking 6k/8k as the next wave, when 4k has almost no support with the general public (or even in the theatrical distribution system short of a few select theaters).



Well, keep in mind that 8/6/4k is currently not for the consumer per se -- it's for the post production. E.g., shooting at 4/6/8k is like shooting with several focal-lenses at the same time since you'll then have more leverage to push in, pan across, stabilize and tweak it beyond any regular HD footage -- no matter if its final destination is only 1080p. 

-- peer


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## sirbarton (Apr 24, 2015)

Tugela said:


> leGreve said:
> 
> 
> > Going to be another nice try from Canon..... hell, even the C300, which won't ship until sometime late summer, is being outshined by Blackmagic Design's Ursa Mini camera which costs HALF.
> ...



Yes - This is why 99 out of a 100 DPs would still take a 1080P Alexa shooting ProRes 444 over any Black Magic Camera. I wish Arri could make a prosumer camera....


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## bgoyette (Apr 25, 2015)

Peer said:


> bgoyette said:
> 
> 
> > One obvious direction for the C500 mark ii would be to take it full frame.
> ...



I really think the 6k/8k bandwagon is simply this: an ultra-niche concept that of course all the entitled 22 year olds that "own" dragons are just going to have to have. There are few places that need that kind of bandwidth, and even fewer systems that will be able to handle it, all so what?..we don't have to make framing decisions or hold our cameras properly? Sorry if I sound like an old man, ( I am)...but it's ridiculous. 

Look I've owned digital Hasselblads for over a decade. I know for resolution. I'm in the biz of shooting and printing very large photos that are viewed very close. I'm a relative niche player in a field where there are thousands of producers who actually need that type of resolution (as opposed to millions that don't). I'd never suggest to my flickr pals that they need 40/50/60 MP so they can show off on the internet. The only people who will ever need 6k and 8k are doing some awfully high end compositing work, or are exhibiting in IMAX(sure Johnny...you'll see your pictures on that big screen someday). Peter Jackson can order as many as he wants, but there's absolutely no reason why some kid shooting music videos would ever need it.(or really ever be able to focus it!)...but it sure sells some Reds. For quite some time in the future, we'll see the VAST majority of 4k users finishing their projects in 2k or HD.... I simply don't see Canon going there (6k/8k) for any reason, not now, and probably not for a long time, (other than to make a hybrid video/still camera that finalizes the convergence of the two mediums.).


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## Tugela (Apr 26, 2015)

bgoyette said:


> Peer said:
> 
> 
> > bgoyette said:
> ...



All of my footage from here on in will be finished in 4K. I'm not shooting anything in HD anymore.


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## bgoyette (Apr 26, 2015)

Tugela said:


> bgoyette said:
> 
> 
> > Peer said:
> ...



It's great that you are a true believer. But.. What percentage of your clients require or even accept 4k delivery? Just curious.


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## Ebrahim Saadawi (Apr 26, 2015)

I understand people here are much more into photography and know lots more about that than I do, so to deliver the point of 6/8K video: 

1080p is 2 megapixel frames
4K is 8 megapixel frames
6K is 20 megapixel frames 
8K is 34 megapixel frames 

Wanting higher resolution in video is the same reason you guys want to shoot 8mp instead of 2, it's just better and bigger, giving more versatlity and better IQ all things being equal. Once you start shooting 4k for 1080p delivery, you'll never go back, it's a very very attractive concept with lots of benefits, now I don't like shooting at 1080p and deliver at the exact same resolution, especially when most cameras are not even real 1080p. It's a bit confining. 

-For the same reason I and all broadcasters shoot HD for SD television 
-and why we shoot 4K for 1080p delivery 
-people who deliver at 4k want to shoot at 6K 

8K? well that's a bit over the top. Imagine how huge of a machine and how big of a file if there was a camera that shot D810 images at 24fps for hours continuously. It will happen someday but not now, not even in 5 years, it's overkill just like 36mp D800 stills are overkill for most needs. 20 is the maximum sweet spot in my opinion. And 8 4K) is the sweet spot for 95% of needs. 2? well it's a bit too small now. 

Canon now have video camera competition in the market from 400$ to 16K$, the entry level to Pro F5/Scarlet/FS7 market, what they lack now and what I believe they must be preparing for is a high end one to compete with the Alexa, Weapon and 35mm film for feature/hollywood dominance. I know for a fact that Canon's policy is dominating the cinema market and being ''the'' top end product in the industry, displacing the competitor we all know and love. 

So that's where the C500 will fit, an Alexa rival. 

Fortunately, Canon has already set the bar very high with the C300II, which is a 
ower end model, in having 4K, 15 stops of DR, super slowmotion, industry-adored colours, effecient ProRes-like codec as well as a few extras like Dual Pixel AF and size, something nonody else have. In that sense, the C300II on paper is in fact ajrad of the alexa and a worthy rival. but as we all know, specs are not everything, and the top-end DPs know that fact, so that's what Canon should aim at with the next C500, aim at what makes the Alexa popular, 

-The colour science
-DR, especially highlight rendition
-Incrideble robustness, FAR higher than C300
-Effecient ProRes codec in addition of internal ArriRaw 
-High frame rates 

and in case of the Alexa 65, all of that plus large format and super high resolution. 

So Canon should address all of these, both the Alexa & Alexa 65 and Alexa Mini and Amira specs and versatility all in one product. 

-It must be rugged, steel rugged, and size is not and issue, neither is weight. 
-It must have great DR and Highlight handling, skin and overal film feel 
-If they want to address the Alexa65 as well, they can go for a Full Frame sensor, a scaled up 35mm 6K sensor from the C300II, with 15 stops of DR and large image format. 
-It must have an industry effecient codec, XF-AVC and XAVC are proofing to be ProRea like so that's covered. 
-It must have internal Raw recording to large media. 
-It must have high frame rates, at both 4K and 1080p. 4K 120p (which current C500 doea) and at least 240p at 1080p. 
-To kill the Amira as well, it can be shoulder mounted with great ergonomics. 

*Price does not matter here, just make it happen.Give us a 35mm rival camera like the Alexa, that's what the top end needs and wants.


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