# T3i - 600EX-RT or Canon Speedlite 580EX II



## doogie (Apr 17, 2013)

hello,
Very new to all this. I bought a T3i for christmas but now want to get my first Flash. Right now I only want to buy 1 flash and later may add. If I go with 600EX-RT then buy more I know I will need the ST-E3-RT. Or is there something cheaper I could get?

If I go With the 580EX II then get another one what would I need to get both of them to work?

Which way do you think I should go? Amazon the 600EX-RT is cheaper, I know I can get good deal on ebay for 580EX II around $375 is what they been going for.


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## ksuweh (Apr 17, 2013)

Any of the speedlites that you can buy now will work as a slave flash using the built-in IR sensor. However it has its limitations. It doesn't work very well outside on a bright sunny day, it works best indoors, it HAS to have line-of-site with the master flash or controller. If you want to use an older flash but want a more reliable & powerful way of triggering the flashes there aftermarket radio transceivers that you can buy. The most popular radio transceiver brand is PocketWizard. You can take a look at them with the link below.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/844969-REG/PocketWizard_801_130_Plus_III_Transceiver_Radio.html

I personally have two 600's with the controller. Honestly, it is a dream to use!! You can control everything from the camera without going to the speedlite & lowering the light stand down to you. It just makes it so simple & efficient. One advantage to the 600 over the 580 (aside from the radio control) is that it is more powerful & has a larger guide number. 

600's are expensive, but not nearly as expensive once you start adding pocketwizards into the equation & considering the the advantages of the 600s system.


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## doogie (Apr 17, 2013)

So if I understand you, if I bought 2 or more 600's I would not have to buy pocketwizards or anything else to get them to work together with my T3i? When would I need a ST-E3-RT?

Thanks


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## ksuweh (Apr 17, 2013)

Actually the 600EX-RT can be used as a slave or a master. That means is that it can control or be controlled, so you might not ever need a ST-E3-RT & no you would NOT need any PocketWizards. Say you have two 600EX-RTs & one ST-E3-RT. With that setup if you need to use a speedlite on the camera you can use that flash plus control the other 600EX-RT that is placed somewhere off camera. You could also have both 600s off camera & control them with the ST-E3-RT, if you don't need a speedlite on the camera. Another VERY NICE feature is that the controls, buttons & menu on the ST-E3-RT is IDENTICAL to the 600EX-RT, so you only need to learn one menu system. If the speedlites give you enough power & recycle speed (which I assume in your case it will be plenty) then the 600s are the best, most controllable, easiest to use & most versatile system that you can buy into. Canon hit a homerun with this one!

P.S.- The ONLY way that Canon could have made this system better is if they would allow PocketWizard interconectability. That way you would be able to fire monolights or powerpacks from the same controller.


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## Wildfire (Apr 17, 2013)

I think the 600EX-RT is a ridiculous flash choice for a beginner.

I do paid portrait/wedding work with a 430EX II and two Yongnuo YN560 manual flashes, all of which cost me a total of $300. I also have a set of Phottix Strato II radio triggers but I find in a lot of situations I don't even need them because the YN560s have a reliable and very sensitive optical slave.

If you need a first flash to go with your T3i, the Canon 430EX II is the way to go. It's great because the T3i has an on-board master that can control the 430EX II in TTL mode! That is all you need to get started.

Then head on over to strobist.com and learn how to REALLY use flash. Once you decide it's time for some more flashes, pick up a couple manual flashes and some 3rd party radio triggers (the Phottix Strato IIs are awesome for manual work!) All of this for much less than the cost of a 600EX-RT and the ST-E3. If you REALLY need TTL (you don't) then Yongnuo has great TTL-capable radio trigger set and flashes as well (YN622 trigger for under $100 and the YN568 flash for under $200).


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 18, 2013)

ksuweh said:


> One advantage to the 600 over the 580 (aside from the radio control) is that it is more powerful & has a larger guide number.



Actually, it's not more powerful. It has a higher guide number because the head zooms to 200mm instead of 105mm, but the light output of the 600 is the same as the 580. 



Wildfire said:


> I think the 600EX-RT is a ridiculous flash choice for a beginner.



I agree with your easier-on-the-budget recommendations, but I'd stop short of calling a 600 'ridiculous' especially if the OP isn't too concerned about cost. The Canon RT system 'just works' - plug and play. But a pair of 430's and 'dumb' triggers is great to learn on. Only downside is if you get into modifiers, more power is nice.


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## Wildfire (Apr 18, 2013)

If the OP wasn't concerned about cost, don't you think he would have gotten a camera body that's better than a 2-generations-old Rebel?

I can see a working professional or someone who's serious about photography spending $1000 on a lighting setup (RT flash plus master unit). But for a beginner whose goal is to simply learn photography? Overkill.

I agree that the RT system would be awesome, but it's simply not worth the enormous cost if you just want to learn how to take photographs. Hell, I occasionally get paid for my photography and I _still_ can't afford to buy a pair of 600EXs.


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## doogie (Apr 20, 2013)

The reason I was even thinking about the 600 was because 580 used on ebay going for like $375 but I can get new 600 for $499. Plus from what I have been reading they say sooner or later you will go with radio control. I don't want to buy something that later on will not use much because I bought something better.


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## digital paradise (Apr 21, 2013)

Agreed. The 580 is discontinued. Go future proof if you are going Canon.


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## gary samples (Apr 22, 2013)

580ex 
Great grand son 3yrs old he loves to shoot


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## Krob78 (Apr 22, 2013)

Wildfire said:


> I think the 600EX-RT is a ridiculous flash choice for a beginner.
> 
> I do paid portrait/wedding work with a 430EX II and two Yongnuo YN560 manual flashes, all of which cost me a total of $300. I also have a set of Phottix Strato II radio triggers but I find in a lot of situations I don't even need them because the YN560s have a reliable and very sensitive optical slave.
> 
> ...


For the price, assuming OP wanted to go older technology, the 580EX II is a superior choice over the 430EX II for power, guide number, flexibility, master/slave option. 

Also if you use the Phottix Strato's and I had them initially and they do work wonderfully for manual flash, if you're going to suggest an upgrade to them, why not the Phottix Odin? They are superior to Yongnuo triggers all day long and I find the TTL in the Odins to work seamlessly with my Canon cameras. The Yongnuo triggers are sketchy at best if he wants to get long service out of them imho...


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## Krob78 (Apr 22, 2013)

gary samples said:


> 580ex
> Great grand son 3yrs old he loves to shoot


Drooling over that set up Gary! I need a tripod like that!!


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## eml58 (Apr 22, 2013)

Krob78 said:


> gary samples said:
> 
> 
> > 580ex
> ...



Even the Lad is colour co-ordinated, That takes Management


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## blackcat (Apr 22, 2013)

I don't think the Canon ST-E3-RT will work on the Rebel. The full advantages of this latest flash system can only be realised with the 5D Mark III or the 1Dx. However, the 600EX-RT will work like the 580EX II with on camera flash & TTL metering etc. and wireless off camera flash through its line of sight light sensor. It just won't have the radio capability with the OP's Rebel.


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## angox (Apr 22, 2013)

Well if you are strictly considering Canon's flashes - then I'd say take the latest version (600EX RT). However, if you are cost-conscious and don't mind of having different brands, then I'd suggest Yongnuo flashes coupled with its radio trigger (either Yongnuo or Cactus v5). You need to set the flash manually, but I believe it is a great way to learn.


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## Wildfire (Apr 22, 2013)

Krob78 said:


> Also if you use the Phottix Strato's and I had them initially and they do work wonderfully for manual flash, if you're going to suggest an upgrade to them, why not the Phottix Odin? They are superior to Yongnuo triggers all day long and I find the TTL in the Odins to work seamlessly with my Canon cameras. The Yongnuo triggers are sketchy at best if he wants to get long service out of them imho...



The cost of the Odin system begins to approach that of the of RT system... Four YN622s cost $180, while one Odin transmitter w/three receivers costs $575.

If you're willing to shell out for TTL flashes and Odins, maybe the 600EX RT is the better way to go as you won't have to hassle with more batteries and separate triggers.




blackcat said:


> I don't think the Canon ST-E3-RT will work on the Rebel. The full advantages of this latest flash system can only be realised with the 5D Mark III or the 1Dx. However, the 600EX-RT will work like the 580EX II with on camera flash & TTL metering etc. and wireless off camera flash through its line of sight light sensor. It just won't have the radio capability with the OP's Rebel.



The ST-E3-RT should work fine on the Rebel. Some features may not be available, but from what I've read, features that are only supposed to work on the 5D3 and 1DX actually do still work on older cameras like the 5D2 and Rebels, despite the fact that Canon's documentation says otherwise.


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## neuroanatomist (Apr 22, 2013)

blackcat said:


> I don't think the Canon ST-E3-RT will work on the Rebel. The full advantages of this latest flash system can only be realised with the 5D Mark III or the 1Dx. However, the 600EX-RT will work like the 580EX II with on camera flash & TTL metering etc. and wireless off camera flash through its line of sight light sensor. It just won't have the radio capability with the OP's Rebel.



Think harder...or at least, smarter. Although there are a couple of minor limitations to the functionality of the new RT system on pre-2012 bodies (lower Xsync, no group flash), most of the radio triggering functions work just fine.


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## doogie (Apr 23, 2013)

Well I bought the 600EX-RT and should get it tomorrow. I join photo club and they are meeting this friday to take pictures at local garden. I will mostly be just watching them but maybe test out my stuff too.


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## ksuweh (Apr 23, 2013)

Congratulations! Glad that I could help you in making that decision!  Let us know if you have any questions & how you like the new gear!!


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## Marsu42 (Apr 23, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Think harder...or at least, smarter. Although there are a couple of minor limitations to the functionality of the new RT system on pre-2012 bodies (lower Xsync, no group flash), most of the radio triggering functions work just fine.



The loss off group flash is really hurting since this is one of the big advantages of the rt system, but the x-sync is said to be still at full speed for many camera bodies like 5d2 no matter what Canon says.



doogie said:


> Well I bought the 600EX-RT and should get it tomorrow.



Just some advice from a fellow 600rt user:

* Immediately buy and read "Speedliter's Handbook: Learning to Craft Light with Canon Speedlites"
* Set the flash so you just need to turn the dial to adjust flash exposure compensation w/o pressing a button first, you'll want to change fec often
* Use manual zoom setting often, so only your subject is lit and not the surrounding area
* Learn to use m flash no matter how smart ettl is.
* Get a sto-fen type diffuser and a larger bounce card
* If you wantmore flashes (and you will) consider the cheaper Yongnuo flashes and radio triggers


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## privatebydesign (Apr 23, 2013)

> "but the x-sync is said to be still at full speed for many camera bodies like 5d2 no matter what Canon says."



I think if you actually test this extensively, like I have, you will find out that on the body the sync speed is fine, when using radio it is not 100% consistent, I have had shutter shadow at 1/250 and even a hint at 1/200 with three 600's and an ST-E3-RT when set to three groups on a 1Ds MkIII. But not every time, about one in fifty shots, this would lead me to conclude two things, internet chatter is practically worthless so test what you are going to do yourself, and Canon were actually right to put that one stop sync speed proviso in, and lets face it they could have disabled the pre 2012 cameras from doing it at all but they didn't, they just give you a gentle warning.

As for group mode, I'd love a firmware update for my 1Ds MkIII's to give me group mode, oh how happy I would be. Having said that the RT radio system as it is, even on pre 2012 bodies, gives you more control than the optical system did, particularly via the ST-E2.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 23, 2013)

privatebydesign said:


> > "but the x-sync is said to be still at full speed for many camera bodies like 5d2 no matter what Canon says."
> 
> 
> But not every time, about one in fifty shots, this would lead me to conclude two things, internet chatter is practically worthless so test what you are going to do yourself, and Canon were actually right to put that one stop sync speed proviso in



Thanks for the clarification, I didn't test it myself (that's why I wrote "is said to"). When I researched if to get the 5d2 or a newer model I didn't find any report of it *not* working with full speed ... but these people might have taken too few shots to realize the slight problem, or maybe your 1d3 does worse than the 5d2.

As for group mode: I'm expecting Yongnuo to reverse engineer the rt protocol rather sooner than later, and if they do maybe they'll release radio triggers that somehow support group mode on all Canon models... but at least then the rt system will cost 1/3 of Canon's price.


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## privatebydesign (Apr 23, 2013)

The 1Ds MkIII is rated to a genuine 1/250 sync speed, as opposed to the hopeful 1/200 of the 5D MkII that often doesn't actually sync anywhere over 1/160 with other radio triggers either. So I doubt it is my camera, but it could be.

I don't believe the 600EX-RT is overpriced, it is $499 at the moment, cheaper than the 580EX was and cheaper than the SB910 is, and neither of them have radio. The cheapest full functioning ETTL compatible radio is around $100 per flash, with other solutions being much more expensive.

Third parties reverse engineering is a double edged sword, if they get too good at it Canon will break the protocols. Now the Phottix Odin system seems like a really interesting buy with a great feature set, but as wiith all third parties, keeping up with Canon's gotcha's will be ever more difficult, and more frustrating for the owners.

I am not a rich guy, but I am very happy to have chosen and invested in the Canon RT system. I am sure doggie will enjoy his new purchase, though I was reluctant to recommend a flash hat cost more than his camera......


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