# Canon EOS R usability issues



## mirage (Nov 8, 2018)

https://petapixel.com/2018/11/07/the-usability-issues-of-the-canon-eos-r/

demonstrates many of the issues and shortcomings in EOS R's user interface. Unfortunately it is greatly inferior to Canon's FF DSLRs like 5D III, 5 IV and even 6D II. 

Most of the points are exactly what I have been criticizing too. 
* No big, tocu sensitive "EOS thumbwheel" on rear 
* No mode dial, instead waste of space for a stupid ON/OFF dial
* No AF-field joystick
* New M.-fn slider is "useless to counter-productive" in practical use

Also included is some comparison with Nikon Z7 UI ... which is far from perfect as well. ;-)


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## eyeheartny (Nov 8, 2018)

Incredibly stupid criticisms. Almost everything he complains about in terms of buttons is fixable by customization. He didn't read the manual, that much is clear. The drive and focus modes can be set to toggle with button presses reachable with one finger. That's how mine is set up now.


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## mirage (Nov 8, 2018)

eyeheartny said:


> Incredibly stupid criticisms. Almost everything he complains about in terms of buttons is fixable by customization. He didn't read the manual, that much is clear. The drive and focus modes can be set to toggle with button presses reachable with one finger. That's how mine is set up now.



EOS R manual does not replace a Mode dial which switches entire camera setup with one click, especially when using custom modes (C1-C3).
EOS R manual does not replace an AF selector joystick. Especially but not only for "left dominant eye" users.
EOS R manual and M-fn. slider gimmick do not replace the big, touch-sensitive "EOS" thumbwheel
EOS R manual does not make wasting precious UI real estate for a simple ON/OFF dial less stupid.
EOS R manual does not make the eye detect sensor (to switch off rear display) less sensitive. 
And no, NONE of these things can be "customized" by user.


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## eyeheartny (Nov 8, 2018)

mirage said:


> EOS R manual does not replace a Mode dial which switches entire camera setup with one click, especially when using custom modes (C1-C3).
> EOS R manual does not replace an AF selector joystick. Especially but not only for "left dominant eye" users.
> EOS R manual and M-fn. slider gimmick do not replace the big, touch-sensitive "EOS" thumbwheel
> EOS R manual does not make wasting precious UI real estate for a simple ON/OFF dial less stupid.
> ...



Cool, so it's not the camera for you. 

A joystick would be stupid. There are too many AF points for that. 

Anyway, I disagree that these are big issues. You think they are. Do you own the camera? Return it if you don't like it. If you don't own it, I don't especially care either.


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## mirage (Nov 8, 2018)

Those are real shortcomkings and issues. Not only for me personally, but to man/most users. Even if they may buy and like the camera for its other qualities. 
All of them could have been easily avoided without making the camera more expensive. 

PS: no I don't and wont buy the EOS R. I am waiting for a smaller, less expensive FF MILC with better functionality.


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## eyeheartny (Nov 8, 2018)

mirage said:


> Those are real shortcomkings and issues. Not only for me personally, but to man/most users. Even if they may buy and like the camera for its other qualities.
> All of them could have been easily avoided without making the camera more expensive.
> 
> PS: no I don't and wont buy the EOS R. I am waiting for a smaller, less expensive FF MILC with better functionality.



It's nice of you to make it easy to recognize that you have no idea what you're talking about. Until you've spent time shooting with the camera (as I have, as I own it and traveled with it to New Orleans last week) these spec-sheet criticisms of yours are meaningless. 

The mode dial thing you mentioned is a non-issue. It takes a fraction of a second to change the mode. Other quality cameras require a button plus a dial rotation. This is an invalid criticism. You can switch into custom modes very quickly. 

The touch bar works fine once you understand how to set it up and use it. I use mine to control ISO and it's a cakewalk. 

What the heck are you talking about with the on/off? It's a switch. It works well. There's no "precious real estate" wasted. My god what a stupid critique. 

I'm left-eye dominant and the touch-and-drag works great. 

You just don't know what you're talking about. How can you critique based on stuff you've read online? You're a joke.


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## bhf3737 (Nov 8, 2018)

mirage said:


> https://petapixel.com/2018/11/07/the-usability-issues-of-the-canon-eos-r/
> 
> demonstrates many of the issues and shortcomings in EOS R's user interface. Unfortunately it is greatly inferior to Canon's FF DSLRs like 5D III, 5 IV and even 6D II.
> ...


Unfortunately, the video mixes subjectivity (i.e. his own preferences) and objective measures of usability (i.e. time-on-task). He starts with the number of clicks to get the job done (objective) but then mixes is with his own preferences (location of buttons!). Ergonomic design is a large departmental unit in consumer electronic manufacturers and they usually look at the product from every possible perspective with verifiable data. It is rather sutpid to think that one person's perspective is superior compared to that.
There is no perfect ergonomics, but I guess for "entry level" MILC, Canon considers learnability, intuitive control and user satisfaction as subjective measures and responsiveness and time-on-task as objective ones. I guess the current EOS-M camera meets those measures as its controls are intuitive and responsive enough. A novice user can grab the camera and start shooting without the need of going deep into the manual and/or set up. For "professional" MILC Canon may use other metrics and design a different UI based on that.


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## Act444 (Nov 8, 2018)

eyeheartny said:


> Incredibly stupid criticisms. Almost everything he complains about in terms of buttons is fixable by customization. He didn't read the manual, that much is clear. The drive and focus modes can be set to toggle with button presses reachable with one finger. That's how mine is set up now.



While that may be true, IMO there’s really no substitute for a dedicated button or dial for functions like these. That allows for at least one other function to be assigned to “general-purpose” buttons like the M.fn on Canon cameras. Small things like these can make a big difference in operation between a 5D and a Rebel, or even a 6D for that matter. A second here, couple seconds there adjusting something can sometimes mean the difference between getting the shot and not.

Hopefully Canon learns from this and a higher-end R camera retains (or even exceeds) the 5D-level of buttons, dials and flexibility.


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## mirage (Nov 8, 2018)

eyeheartny said:


> The mode dial thing you mentioned is a non-issue. It takes a fraction of a second to change the mode. Other quality cameras require a button plus a dial rotation. This is an invalid criticism. You can switch into custom modes very quickly.
> ...
> What the heck are you talking about with the on/off? It's a switch. It works well. There's no "precious real estate" wasted. My god what a stupid critique.
> ...
> You just don't know what you're talking about. How can you critique based on stuff you've read online? You're a joke.



Most of the issues I point out here do not require owning or using the camera. A quick glance on an image of the product immediately reveals some of the issues. 

e.g. Putting a dial-shaped ON/OFF switch on top left shoulder of camera is a waste of precious real estate. The switch could and should have gone where it is on comparable Canon EOS bodies [5D, 6D class]. Dedicated mode dial allows faster, more direct change of modes - when needed without even taking the eye off the viewfinder. UI on EOS R also works, but it is not as good, fast and simple a solution as the one on many other Canon EOS cameras. Objectively, not subjectively.

Other points are well documented in reviews, videos and postings by actual users of the camera. e.g. the poor implementation of the slider gimmick.


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## Fred Strobel (Nov 8, 2018)

I own the EOS R. I love the way the mode changes, I could change it without taken my eye off the viewfinder. I actually like the Fv mode which can make the need to change modes obsolete. Though I wish they had the Fv mode in the movie mode though. I could never change the modes without taking my off the viewfinder without taking my eye off the viewfinder.


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## Viggo (Nov 8, 2018)

I don’t know why I bother to tell people how wrong they are but here I go again. Thank GOD they don’t use those stupid mode dials for the R. After using 1-series for a decade without them I don’t think I would ever stop being irritated if I actually had to use it again ... I cannot believe people claim that is better than the way a 1-series and the R works, but then I remember most people complaining have never or barley used the camera.

I seems some people are on a mission to badmouth Canon and have the dumbest arguments I’ve seen .... it’s like this bad rash that keeps coming back...


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## snappy604 (Nov 8, 2018)

yeah some of the choices do seem odd, but I experienced changes like it when I went from 7D to 80D. Lost joystick and a few other things, but gained so much more and there were ways to do the functions mostly the same, just different. Within a week of use I really didn't care.

These changes likely wouldn't be show stoppers for me.. much of it can be overcome with customizations as indicated... to the point it becomes a matter of preference. It's almost like saying I want pink and they only offer black.. and I won't buy it because they don't come in pink!
<edit fixed a few spelling mistakes>


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 8, 2018)

I own the 5D MK IV, and now the R. I've had it 2 weeks, and really like it for what I do. A lot of the way a person sees a camera is thru their filter for what they like to do.

While the camera is smaller, and has some new features that require learning, most of the points are non issues for me. I do miss the joystick, but I have already found with my 5D MK IV that the touch screen replaces it for a lot of uses. I also keep the M-Fn slider off because my hand is large and my thumb rests on it most of the time.

However, there are improvements too. All my lenses focus accurately from mfd to infinity, and focus is quick. NO MORE AFMA! I did not realize focus was quick, because I've had my old and slow to focus 50mm f/2.5 macro on the camera most of the time, it has a nice feel with that lens. This morning, the sun peeked out, so I decided to try the camera with my 100-400mm L MK II. I was shocked when it focused almost instantly. So, I tried focus from MFD to infiinity. That took less than a second, also as fast as my 5D MK IV.

With TC's. I decided to really stress autofocus, so I added my Canon 2X II TC on the 100-400 and set it to 400mm. Now, focus was slower from MFD to infinity took about 2-3 seconds, but it focused and did not hunt. Then, I tried a distance of about 20 ft to infinity, it was almost instant. Since that worked great, I added my 1.4X TC MK III stacked with the 2X. Then, I focused at mfd, the lens was still at infinity and took about 5 sec to focus at mfd. Slow but it did not hesitate or hunt. Then back to infinity and focus was the same, very slow but accurate and no hunting. I tried the 20 ft to infinity speed, it took less than a second. So, I turned on the 3 meter to infinity focus limiter to check focus speed from 3m to infinity, it was again very slow, maybe 4 seconds. Finally, I just tried focusing with things that were at least 50 ft away then switching to infinity. I was back into the 1 second or less speed again, and changing focus on different objects from 200 ft or 5000 ft to infinity, was, of course, instant.

So, The camera will focus reasonably well even at approximately f/16. The TC's slow down AF a lot, but thats the only case where autofocus is done with a small f-stop. To me, this means great AF at low light. Normally, even a 1.4X TC is something I avoid but its nice to see that I can use autofocus with both tc's stacked, since my eyesight is not nearly as accurate as autofocus with the R.

I have also tried AF with my 5D MK IV using similar combinations and live view. It will not autofocus with the stacked TC's unless I manually pre-focus to get it close, then it will snap into focus.


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## mirage (Nov 8, 2018)

Viggo said:


> I don’t know why I bother to tell people how wrong they are but here I go again. Thank GOD they don’t use those stupid mode dials for the R. After using 1-series for a decade without them I don’t think I would ever stop being irritated if I actually had to use it again ... I cannot believe people claim that is better than the way a 1-series and the R works, but then I remember most people complaining have never or barley used the camera.
> 
> I seems some people are on a mission to badmouth Canon and have the dumbest arguments I’ve seen .... it’s like this bad rash that keeps coming back...




I know that 1 series users do not miss the mode dial and they believe to be absolutely right, because they after all, hey, it is implemented that way on the most expensive Canon camera (same with Nikon btw.). They are wrong, nevertheless. 

Objective fact is - as presented in the video - dedicated mode dial works faster. It requires at least 1 user action less to switch mode (including custom modes with pre-set entire camera setups, not just Exposure/program modes). Mode dial also has a bit of a (deserved) bad rep with hi-level "pro"-body users, because of camera makers (including Canon) overloading lower level model mode dials with umpteen different "scene modes", for the (assumed) benefit of (assumed) "n00b users".

But 7D/5D-class mode dials are not overloaded. Full auto, P, Av, Tv, M , B and C1-C3. Clear as daylight, intuitive and and useful. Other than maybe voice commands [ "Alexa, set baseball mode!"  ] a mode dial cannot be beat in terms of operational speed, muscle memory and speed to select an entire camera setup with anything up to 50 parameters from "AF-use-case settings to flash preferences". And this is objective, not subjective. Although many folks will be willing to put up with EOS R user interface issues in exchange for other properties (eg an RF 50/1.2 which is - also objectively - clearly better than the sub-par EF version).


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## Viggo (Nov 8, 2018)

mirage said:


> I know that 1 series users do not miss the mode dial and they believe to be absolutely right, because they after all, hey, it is implemented that way on the most expensive Canon camera (same with Nikon btw.). They are wrong, nevertheless.
> 
> Objective fact is - as presented in the video - dedicated mode dial works faster. It requires at least 1 user action less to switch mode (including custom modes with pre-set entire camera setups, not just Exposure/program modes). Mode dial also has a bit of a (deserved) bad rep with hi-level "pro"-body users, because of camera makers (including Canon) overloading lower level model mode dials with umpteen different "scene modes", for the (assumed) benefit of (assumed) "n00b users".
> 
> But 7D/5D-class mode dials are not overloaded. Full auto, P, Av, Tv, M , B and C1-C3. Clear as daylight, intuitive and and useful. Other than maybe voice commands [ "Alexa, set baseball mode!"  ] a mode dial cannot be beat in terms of operational speed, muscle memory and speed to select an entire camera setup with anything up to 50 parameters from "AF-use-case settings to flash preferences". And this is objective, not subjective. Although many folks will be willing to put up with EOS R user interface issues in exchange for other properties (eg an RF 50/1.2 which is - also objectively - clearly better than the sub-par EF version).


While you turn the dial 4-5 clicks, I push and scroll in the same motion, an instant. Plus I don’t have to bother with B and Tv and the others I never use.

In the same way I can, on the R, push mode with my right index finger and choose whichever mode I like with my left thumb, directly. No clicking through all the other. And no, oh shoot, I turned too far and missed the shot because Bulb... Imagine you have to put on and take off five pair of shoes before you can put on the ones you want every time you leave your home....


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## mirage (Nov 8, 2018)

Viggo said:


> While you turn the dial 4-5 clicks, I push and scroll in the same motion, an instant. Plus I don’t have to bother with B and Tv and the others I never use.
> 
> In the same way I can, on the R, push mode with my right index finger and choose whichever mode I like with my left thumb, directly. No clicking through all the other. And no, oh shoot, I turned too far and missed the shot because Bulb... Imagine you have to put on and take off five pair of shoes before you can put on the ones you want every time you leave your home....



On the fly i usually only switch from Av (80% of the time) to M (10%). 1 "blind" click of dial. Or to C3 = all the way until it hits hard stop. 
Would not want having to push a button and then turn a wheel or delve into some menu and tap on touch screen.

This is good:







This is ... stupid waste of real estate


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## Fred Strobel (Nov 9, 2018)

Having watch the full video, the guy should have actually used the EOS R before making the video. He talked about having to do this complicated system to change exposure compensation, but in AV, and TV mode all you have to do is change the rear dial. The only time you have to do that is if you are in Manual mode and auto iso and you do not set the lens ring to exposure compensation. You can set three dials (lens, main and rear) to have control over apperture, shutter and iso as you like in manual mode so you do not need to adjust exposure compensation in that way anyway. The Nikon looks like it could be a bear to learn to use.


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## wyotex43n (Nov 9, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I own the 5D MK IV, and now the R. I've had it 2 weeks, and really like it for what I do. A lot of the way a person sees a camera is thru their filter for what they like to do.
> 
> While the camera is smaller, and has some new features that require learning, most of the points are non issues for me. I do miss the joystick, but I have already found with my 5D MK IV that the touch screen replaces it for a lot of uses. I also keep the M-Fn slider off because my hand is large and my thumb rests on it most of the time.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the nice update. I have only had my hands on one for 10 minutes but I found moving the focus points with the touch screen to be slow. What has your experience been?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 9, 2018)

wyotex43n said:


> Thanks for the nice update. I have only had my hands on one for 10 minutes but I found moving the focus points with the touch screen to be slow. What has your experience been?


I tap the spot I want focused rather than trying to move the focus point with one of the controls, so for me its not a issue, but if trying to move a focus point while looking thru the viewfinder, using the tough and drag set to right and relative works best for me.


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## dak723 (Nov 9, 2018)

The R has 18 modes - 10 for stills and 8 for video including 3 custom modes for each.

So those complaining that the R should have the same mode dial as the FF DSLRs obviously haven't used the camera and have no idea what they are complaining about. If you really think an old style mode dial with 18 settings would be easier to use, please raise your hand!

It doesn't take a genius to understand that for anyone used to a different button layout, the R will be different. So it takes a while to get used to what is new. That doesn't automatically mean that what is new is worse. In many cases, once you get used to it, it is better.

I rented the R for 4 days. That was planty of time to reallt appreciate the ease of use of the new mode button, and as some have mentioned, the easy use of the button without taking your eye off the EVF. I customized the function bar to act as two seperate buttons - I did find the sliding aspect to not work well. But two butons (one for each end of the bar) works very well. Being used to "touch and drag" AF point selection from my M5, I now find this spec to be a must have.

This camera is really easy to use. Sorry to disappoint all the Canon bashers.


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## mirage (Nov 9, 2018)

dak723 said:


> The R has 18 modes - 10 for stills and 8 for video including 3 custom modes for each.



another example how the video stuff compromises the design of stills cameras. guess what, i don't use or want any of the 8 video modes. And i don't want them (literally) being shoved into my face with every single camera, only because a minority of customers wants "hybrid" cameras.[/QUOTE]


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## Viggo (Nov 9, 2018)

Mirage: you still have to push the unlock button and then turn the dial and if you’re choosing a C-mode from Tv that’s it far from one click.

And the powerbutton is there because around the shutter button it’s crowded with all the things you use more than the power button. At the same time the power button has to be easy to reach and out of the way.


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## Viggo (Nov 9, 2018)

mirage said:


> another example how the video stuff compromises the design of stills cameras. guess what, i don't use or want any of the 8 video modes. And i don't want them (literally) being shoved into my face with every single camera, only because a minority of customers wants "hybrid" cameras.


EXACTLY, that is my point. Only they haven’t done it all the way through with the R. They have dropped the Mode Dial to not have 18 modes there, as it was already cumbersome with DSLR’s. The option they should include is the ability to uncheck those modes you never use, like with the AF-modes in the R and AF and drive modes and shooting modes in the 1-series. That was my whole point....


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## mirage (Nov 9, 2018)

Nikon and others demonstrate for decades that power switch around shutter works without any problem. in any camera from "entry level" to "pro".

But i did not even ask for such a move by Canon. They could have just kept the familiar design with Mode dial plus power switch underneath. 

although it is not quite as good as a power switch top right around shutter button so you can flick camera on with right thumb (one hand) already while lifting it to your eye - in one swift move.


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## mirage (Nov 9, 2018)

Viggo said:


> EXACTLY, that is my point. Only they haven’t done it all the way through with the R. They have dropped the Mode Dial to not have 18 modes there, as it was already cumbersome with DSLR’s. The option they should include is the ability to uncheck those modes you never use, like with the AF-modes in the R and AF and drive modes and shooting modes in the 1-series. That was my whole point....




aha! i am with you on that one. indeed a possible customization advantage over any "analogue/hard dial". 

let's see whether it will be part of the upcoming firmware update for EOS R.


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## Viggo (Nov 9, 2018)

mirage said:


> aha! i am with you on that one. indeed a possible customization advantage over any "analogue/hard dial".
> 
> let's see whether it will be part of the upcoming firmware update for EOS R.


I have sent them the suggestion at least. It shouldn’t be that hard since they’ve already included it with AF modes 

The reason the power switch isn’t below like on many of the others is there is no room because the R smaller. And they have it in the same spot as many other Canon cameras, they just don’t have the mode dial on top of it.


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## mirage (Nov 9, 2018)

re slider thingie: i find it surprising that Canon was not able to implement it well. they were first with touchscreens and those were always "best in class". i would have expected them to get that slider "really right". but then, Apple also was not able to get it right on their macbook pro. (not sure if they dropped it altogether meanwhile or is it still there on most recent model?).


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## mirage (Nov 9, 2018)

optimal implementation. as seen on a current, very compact, mirrorfree Canon EOS camera. 







lack of C1-C3 and the stupid red "record video button" are the only issues here.


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## killswitch (Nov 9, 2018)

I had the chance to play with EOS R a bit. My intention was to go through the typical usage/workflow to see how well it coincides my current style. I currently use 5D3 and used 60D to 5D4 to D7000 to D810. I love many features about the R, but some of the points the person in the video as well as others mentioned here is correct in their assertion. Can we get used to the new layout? Sure. But I felt Canon nailed their layout with their FF over the years and is the sole reason I chose to use Canon bodies over Nikon. It just works. So some of the choices for button placement and removal seemed a little strange. Why break something that already works.

I have a medium sized hands, the grip on EOS R is fantastic, I compared it side by side with Nikon Z (okay, grip wise), and A7III (sucks grip wisel). That being said, I felt a lot of placements could be tweaked for better usability. I mentioned in another thread, the mode dial on top is ok, but I felt I had to loosen the grip a tad in order for my thumb to reach it when I am previewing images on the back of the screen looking down. If you used their DSLRs there wheels on back and top work so well without even compromising the grip, I cannot understand why not use what already works.

The AF ON felt squeezed so much into the corner that you have to move your thumb closer to the edge instead of having your thumb at natural position which would rest closer to where the M-Fn bar is. I tried assingning the touch screen AF on the top right corner so I can use my thumb to select points. There is no way you can reach the left corner of the AF area with your thumb while you are looking through the EVF without letting go of the grip. Also the nose gets in the way a bit. Now I shoot in extreme temperatures from time to time, I cannot see its usability if I have my gloves on. The joystick is a MUST! I dunno, I will probably buy R or the next one as it has more pluses than minuses. I feel it will take a generation or two before Canon nails down the UX for their mirrorless. But it is a good first attempt.


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## dak723 (Nov 9, 2018)

killswitch said:


> ... The joystick is a MUST! ...



So many folks criticize the R because Canon "removed" or "replaced" the joystick. Funny, since the R is basically the mirrorless version of the 6D - and the 6D doesn't have a joystick. The R has the touch and drag - the 6D does not. In other words, the R has a much better and faster way to choose your AF point compared to Canon's most similar FF DSLR.


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## killswitch (Nov 9, 2018)

dak723 said:


> So many folks criticize the R because Canon "removed" or "replaced" the joystick. Funny, since the R is basically the mirrorless version of the 6D - and the 6D doesn't have a joystick. The R has the touch and drag - the 6D does not. In other words, the R has a much better and faster way to choose your AF point compared to Canon's most similar FF DSLR.



I mentioned above, I tried the AF using touch while shooting, your thumb does not reach the left quarter of the AF zone when you set the position to the top right corner of the touch screen. Using Relative mode you have to swipe several times to reach the left quarter of the AF points, with Absolute mode you render the left part completely unreachable unless you have big phalanges OR if you prefer to let go of the grip order to stretch and reach those points. Both "6D" and "60D" do not have as many points and do not cover as large a "real-estate" as the R does so I do not know what your point is. No one said touch screen is not a bad solution, it works but it needs to be more thought out. I suggest you play with the AF system in various condition while "actually shooting" to see how well the UX aspect is. It is good but it feels rushed. I feel it is something a major software upgrade can easily fix. I said above, it has more pluses than minuses and will probably nail it in a generation or two like Sony did.

Also, like most people and the person in the video stated - everyone has different ways to do the same thing so redundancy (5D joystick + d pad to select AF for example), and now touch makes the camera just more versatile. So, saying you don't need a joystick or the touchscreen or the d-pad is absurd. What works for you doesnt mean it works for others and vice versa. My two cents.


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## dak723 (Nov 10, 2018)

killswitch said:


> I mentioned above, I tried the AF using touch while shooting, your thumb does not reach the left quarter of the AF zone when you set the position to the top right corner of the touch screen. Using Relative mode you have to swipe several times to reach the left quarter of the AF points, with Absolute mode you render the left part completely unreachable unless you have big phalanges OR if you prefer to let go of the grip order to stretch and reach those points. Both "6D" and "60D" do not have as many points and do not cover as large a "real-estate" as the R does so I do not know what your point is. No one said touch screen is not a bad solution, it works but it needs to be more thought out. I suggest you play with the AF system in various condition while "actually shooting" to see how well the UX aspect is. It is good but it feels rushed. I feel it is something a major software upgrade can easily fix. I said above, it has more pluses than minuses and will probably nail it in a generation or two like Sony did.
> 
> Also, like most people and the person in the video stated - everyone has different ways to do the same thing so redundancy (5D joystick + d pad to select AF for example), and now touch makes the camera just more versatile. So, saying you don't need a joystick or the touchscreen or the d-pad is absurd. What works for you doesnt mean it works for others and vice versa. My two cents.



Sorry that you did not understand my point. My point was in response to people (not necessarily you) who complain that the R has "removed" or "replaced" the joystick. Since the R is essentially the 6D series in mirrorless, I pointed out that - at that level in the Canon lineup - there is no joystick. 

If you are not used to the touch and drag - yes, I can see it may take some getting used to. Indeed, you may have to swipe several times. And yes, you may have to loosen or change your grip to reach the far points. I don't consider either of these things a problem, but yes, you are correct in saying what works for me may not work for others.


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## Viggo (Nov 10, 2018)

Swipe several times? I haven’t needed to at all. Hmmm..


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## killswitch (Nov 10, 2018)

dak723 said:


> Sorry that you did not understand my point. My point was in response to people (not necessarily you) who complain that the R has "removed" or "replaced" the joystick. Since the R is essentially the 6D series in mirrorless, I pointed out that - at that level in the Canon lineup - there is no joystick.
> 
> If you are not used to the touch and drag - yes, I can see it may take some getting used to. Indeed, you may have to swipe several times. And yes, you may have to loosen or change your grip to reach the far points. I don't consider either of these things a problem, but yes, you are correct in saying what works for me may not work for others.



Ok, my apologies. Ya, it is essentialy mirrorless version of 6D or 6.5D if you will. I loved the touchscreen for AF selection don’t get me wrong. I am hoping through software patch they will add the option to configure swipe speed sensitivity for users just like a computer mouse we all have our own settings for mouse trackball movement speed. I feel the R is overall a great first mirrorless and would buy as it has some really good stuff in it. Eye-Af I am hoping they will fix the lag issue with some software and firmware patch. Some really good bundles are showing up already. Come Black Friday it should get interesting as far as R is concerned.


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## Tremotino (Nov 11, 2018)

eyeheartny said:


> It's nice of you to make it easy to recognize that you have no idea what you're talking about. Until you've spent time shooting with the camera (as I have, as I own it and traveled with it to New Orleans last week) these spec-sheet criticisms of yours are meaningless.
> 
> The mode dial thing you mentioned is a non-issue. It takes a fraction of a second to change the mode. Other quality cameras require a button plus a dial rotation. This is an invalid criticism. You can switch into custom modes very quickly.
> 
> ...



I tested the eos R one day long.

You are absolutely right! It took me half an hour to fully understand how to customise and setup the camera for my personal use. 
In my opinion it's a step forward in terms of usability and camera control, give that you are open to new technologies and systems.
E.g. The relative or absolute touch AF is so much faster and accurate than the joystick imho.

In my practical test, the eos R won the race over the other mirror less ff. Actually the sony 7r was the worst. (Quite funny, when the sony guy gave my a hand grip for my 3. And 4.:finger  )


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## mihazero (Nov 14, 2018)

eyeheartny said:


> Incredibly stupid criticisms. Almost everything he complains about in terms of buttons is fixable by customization. He didn't read the manual, that much is clear. The drive and focus modes can be set to toggle with button presses reachable with one finger. That's how mine is set up now.



I actually agree with Mirage on some points. Its multi step process to get simple thing to change. EOS R is touchscreen centric camera which does not relate to Pro users that need quick change of options as situations dictate and changes happen before You.

I did test EOS R about a week or so ago and while its nice in hand and lenses are amazing usability wise 80D is sooo much better. I could do entire event with rapid changes around me and be able to adapt to it with almost no time wasted on changing options. Now I know 80D is apsc and its button layout is simplified compared to 5D range, but still its more then enough to be able to change most of the things without ever lifting eye from eyecup and do so in split second. EOS R on other hand has some functionality that is wooow, but also some other that make that WOW feature almost unusable at fast paced events. If You shoot landscape EOS R is fine. In that instance You have more then enough time to look at screen and just tap on options you want.

Me personaly would wait for 1Dx form factor or 5D formfactor where everything is in button form. I am sure that pro photographers who use 1Dx care all that much if their camera is big if it does all that they need. In same way i dont care if next EOS R Pro body is as big as 5D or 1Dx if it gives me features i need.


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## mihazero (Nov 14, 2018)

dak723 said:


> The R has 18 modes - 10 for stills and 8 for video including 3 custom modes for each.
> 
> So those complaining that the R should have the same mode dial as the FF DSLRs obviously haven't used the camera and have no idea what they are complaining about. If you really think an old style mode dial with 18 settings would be easier to use, please raise your hand!
> 
> ...



This is not PRO-centric camera. Modes or no modes ... its designed around touch screen as main settings input and those other 3 buttons on camera can do same thing with even more clicks scrolls etc etc. Thats wasted time.

At race track with cars going really really fast .. make changes on 5D or 1Dx is simple 1 button away. EOS R is just not made for that. I know it can do races, so can rebel apsc camera, just neither will do really good at it.

So from my testing and playing with it, I can only conclude its camera for people that are into more slower paced shooting style. Time doesnt matter as much.


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## Larsskv (Nov 15, 2018)

mihazero said:


> This is not PRO-centric camera. Modes or no modes ... its designed around touch screen as main settings input and those other 3 buttons on camera can do same thing with even more clicks scrolls etc etc. Thats wasted time.
> 
> At race track with cars going really really fast .. make changes on 5D or 1Dx is simple 1 button away. EOS R is just not made for that. I know it can do races, so can rebel apsc camera, just neither will do really good at it.
> 
> So from my testing and playing with it, I can only conclude its camera for people that are into more slower paced shooting style. Time doesnt matter as much.



Owning the 1DXII, the 5DIV and EOS R, I wonder which changes you cannot do with the EOS R, with a turn of a dial or with a click of a button, that you can do with a 5D or 1DX? 

If you include the adapter with a control ring on it, the EOS R has three dials, compared to two on the 1DXII and 5DIV. I have programmed the EOS Rs buttons so that I access the functionalities that I need with the press of a button or turn of a dial.

Therefore, please elaborate, which operational changes is it that you cannot do with the EOS R, with a turn of a dial or with a click of a button?


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## mihazero (Nov 15, 2018)

Larsskv said:


> Owning the 1DXII, the 5DIV and EOS R, I wonder which changes you cannot do with the EOS R, with a turn of a dial or with a click of a button, that you can do with a 5D or 1DX?
> 
> If you include the adapter with a control ring on it, the EOS R has three dials, compared to two on the 1DXII and 5DIV. I have programmed the EOS Rs buttons so that I access the functionalities that I need with the press of a button or turn of a dial.
> 
> Therefore, please elaborate, which operational changes is it that you cannot do with the EOS R, with a turn of a dial or with a click of a button?



WB change, Spot Metering, Drive, AF MODE (Single/SERVO), ISO (yes you will most likely put that on that ring on lens) .... i cant be bothered ... list is tooo long and putting few option on M.FN button then scroll then press Set then scroll again then press set again ... not quick. And way to change mode ... OMG ... that thing is ridiculous. Also what you want to say is ... "I can customize bla bla bla" where problem is ... i have to make my brain relearn that my options on top of 5D are now on button that is on complitely different place, also, i can do so for only few options because ... well have soo less buttons to do that with. There is a reason ADOBE never changed shortcuts for options in all versions of programs ... speed and muscle memory of users.

And i stand by my 80D versatility comparison. I would do much better with 80D speed wise then EOS R with all customizations combined at some fast paced event with lights that change every few seconds.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 15, 2018)

mihazero said:


> This is not PRO-centric camera. Modes or no modes ... its designed around touch screen as main settings input and those other 3 buttons on camera can do same thing with even more clicks scrolls etc etc. Thats wasted time.
> 
> At race track with cars going really really fast .. make changes on 5D or 1Dx is simple 1 button away. EOS R is just not made for that. I know it can do races, so can rebel apsc camera, just neither will do really good at it.
> 
> So from my testing and playing with it, I can only conclude its camera for people that are into more slower paced shooting style. Time doesnt matter as much.



Absolutely, its not marketed or intended to be a 5D or 1D replacement, yet I see people complaining about lack of features only found on those cameras. 

Yet, wedding photographers seem mostly happy with it, the one main drawback being the lack of AF assist on the flash unit. I see it as a alternative for someone who wants 6D II features with a few upgrades and does not want to pay the $4,000 that the 5D replacement model will cost. I bought mine to replace my SL2, and, for now, at least, am keeping my 5D MK IV, they can share batteries, lenses (I have no RF lenses), and since the sensors are basically the same, post processing is similar as well.

Although pro sports photographers somehow managed to capture some pretty good photos with those huge press cameras and 4 X 5 sheet film, it took lots of experience to gain the skill needed to use the tool. Its nice to not have to be able to just gun 100 photos of a event and sort thru them, but, as you say, sports can be done.


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## Larsskv (Nov 15, 2018)

mihazero said:


> WB change, Spot Metering, Drive, AF MODE (Single/SERVO), ISO (yes you will most likely put that on that ring on lens) .... i cant be bothered ... list is tooo long and putting few option on M.FN button then scroll then press Set then scroll again then press set again ... not quick. And way to change mode ... OMG ... that thing is ridiculous. Also what you want to say is ... "I can customize bla bla bla" where problem is ... i have to make my brain relearn that my options on top of 5D are now on button that is on complitely different place, also, i can do so for only few options because ... well have soo less buttons to do that with. There is a reason ADOBE never changed shortcuts for options in all versions of programs ... speed and muscle memory of users.
> 
> And i stand by my 80D versatility comparison. I would do much better with 80D speed wise then EOS R with all customizations combined at some fast paced event with lights that change every few seconds.



You can set the functions you mention to separate buttons. Customizability is not a problem with the R. And please tell me, how you change and move the focus point faster on the 80D, than on the R. 

You know the 80D and how it operates. The R operates differently. It will take some time and experience to get used to. Yes, you must relearn the buttons in order to match your 80D speed wise. But it can be done.

All this said, I agree that the EOS R needs refinement. The DSLRs are more mature and better thought out from a usability standpoint, and I (still) prefer how the DSLRs operate. I am curious if Canon is all in on touch and drag focus, or if they will put a joystick in a future mirrorless camera. I think the touch and drag focus is more effective, but a bit more cumbersome/less intuitive in use.


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## Act444 (Nov 15, 2018)

I still wonder why the R ergonomically wasn’t laid out to be more or less a FF version of the M5...


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## mihazero (Nov 15, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Absolutely, its not marketed or intended to be a 5D or 1D replacement, yet I see people complaining about lack of features only found on those cameras.
> 
> Yet, wedding photographers seem mostly happy with it, the one main drawback being the lack of AF assist on the flash unit. I see it as a alternative for someone who wants 6D II features with a few upgrades and does not want to pay the $4,000 that the 5D replacement model will cost. I bought mine to replace my SL2, and, for now, at least, am keeping my 5D MK IV, they can share batteries, lenses (I have no RF lenses), and since the sensors are basically the same, post processing is similar as well.
> 
> Although pro sports photographers somehow managed to capture some pretty good photos with those huge press cameras and 4 X 5 sheet film, it took lots of experience to gain the skill needed to use the tool. Its nice to not have to be able to just gun 100 photos of a event and sort thru them, but, as you say, sports can be done.



Oh i agree ... it is not 5D or 1Dx intented replacement. That is what im waiting. And as i said in previous message ... You can capture amazing photos even with old rebels, but thats not the point.


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## LSXPhotog (Nov 23, 2018)

It's really difficult to read anything about this camera online. This topic in particular really annoys me because it's honestly something that can easily be solved with seat time with the camera and learning it's layout. Yes, it's unlike previous Canon bodies. But you know what? I learned to use it pretty quickly because I'm not inept.

The mode dial...

Let's be real. This isn't an issue at all in any way shape or form. Want to change your mode? You don't even have to leave the viewfinder! Press the mode button and then select the mode you want! Canon let's you use the front scroll wheel, the rear mode wheel, the directional pad and the touchscreen to choose. So just quit whining about it. It's incredibly easy and I would argue it's easier than previous Canon cameras have been. I really don't get the issue here.

As for the joystick...

I am a professional motorsports photographer. My main camera is a 1DX Mark II. Practically every camera I've owned in the past 8 years has used a joystick. I don't miss it at all on this camera. Why? Because touch and drag - after you've gotten used to using it - is a much faster and more effective way to move to the area you want to autofocus. Yet, I see complaints about this. I challenge anyone to prove the joystick would be better at moving to one of the 5655 possible positions...I'll buy them a coffee.


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## BillB (Nov 23, 2018)

LSXPhotog said:


> It's really difficult to read anything about this camera online. This topic in particular really annoys me because it's honestly something that can easily be solved with seat time with the camera and learning it's layout. Yes, it's unlike previous Canon bodies. But you know what? I learned to use it pretty quickly because I'm not inept.
> 
> The mode dial...
> 
> ...


Internet camera reviews often make mountains out of molehills with little or no consideration of the practical significance of a particular feature for actual photography. That would spoil the internet fun.


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## wockawocka (Nov 23, 2018)

I got mine today and love it. If I would change two things it would be:

- Optional amplification of the rear screen af selection. I want to move my AF point from one side to the other in one movement, not three.
- An option to select my own burst rate, (3/4/5 fps)

Great camera though, focus in low light smokes my 5D4 even in live view.


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## Talys (Nov 23, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Yet, wedding photographers seem mostly happy with it, the one main drawback being the lack of AF assist on the flash unit.



Not being a wedding photographer, I absolutely hate this about mirrorless cameras. AF assist just works exactly the way one would imagine a autofocus assist should on a DSLR. Although EOS R is much better than A7R3, it is much worse than a T2i in situations where you'd use an AF assist light. 

As someone who really, really likes flashes and strobes, I wish camera manufacturers could get this part working "right" on mirrorless. I guess, this is another reason why EVFs don't make me super excited -- they add little value in the WYSIWYG aspect if you're going to be creating a lot of your own light anyhow.



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Absolutely, its not marketed or intended to be a 5D or 1D replacement, yet I see people complaining about lack of features only found on those cameras.



Part of it is just because in some respects, EOS R is so close, yet so far  I'm pretty sure that there will be a Canon pro 5D/1D type mirrorless, that will get us there. It just won't be $2,000. For the price that EOS R is, I think it's an excellent general purpose mirrorless camera, excellent value, and no-brainer for someone with EF lenses that wants to play with mirrorless.


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## dcm (Nov 24, 2018)

Got my hands on the R/24-105 combo in the local Best Buy today (no Nikon Z in stock yet to compare with it). Liked the fit in my hand - I was able to pick it up and use it without much thought. Just running through the basic setup and options I found it a nice blend of features from my M5 and 1DX2. Other than size it didn't remind me of my 6D all that much, but maybe that's because I haven't been using it as much lately. 

Price seems a bit high, but I didn't explore all of it's capabilities yet. I'm tempted, but in no rush. I'd like to see the next body and a few more RF lenses before I pull the trigger. Over the years I've found most usability issues are more about me learning how to use a new body rather than something inherent in the design. And I've see lots of changes since the film days with my A-1.


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## Jethro (Nov 24, 2018)

Bought mine yesterday (15% off in the black Friday sales!). Great first impressions. Fv seems very natural to me, and I suspect it's going to be the go-to mode. I'm not fussed by the mode button approach. At the moment I haven't got a problem with the multi-fn bar, except it sometimes seems a little laggy in responding. It's all seems a little smaller than the 6D I'm used to, but not so that I'm really noticing it. The trick seems to be to get used to doing pretty much everything through the EVF, which is exceptional. Not having had a mirrorless ILC before, I'm still getting used to the WYSIWYG approach, but again it seems fine to me. I'm still coming to terms with the cabling to attach to my computer - that's not obvious at the moment. I gather there is an optional HDMI cable.


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## killswitch (Nov 24, 2018)

LSXPhotog said:


> It's really difficult to read anything about this camera online. This topic in particular really annoys me because it's honestly something that can easily be solved with seat time with the camera and learning it's layout. Yes, it's unlike previous Canon bodies. But you know what? I learned to use it pretty quickly because I'm not inept.
> 
> The mode dial...
> 
> ...



I agree with you regarding the mode dial issue. it's really ok the way it is in EOS R. However, I am curious what you think about the touch screen functionality in the following scenarios 1) touch screen af usability under extreme weather conditions where you are wearing thick gloves. 2) M-fn touch bar under the same extreme conditions and wearing thick gloves 3) taking a shot through the EVF, are you able to select/reach the AF points on the left edge of the AF region in one go in absolute mode? I tried setting up the AF region to be on the top right corner of the actual touch-screen even then my thumb could not reach the left edge of the AF points without loosening my grip. Alternate way for me was to set it to relative mode and swipe twice/thrice to reach those AF points on the left edge. Is there are AF-drag speed setting (like PC mouse, track-ball) on EOS-R? I may have missed?


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## killswitch (Nov 24, 2018)

Also, anybody seen any video examples of what happens if you turn off the "image review" after each shot? Is it a quick black-out before we see again through the EVF? I have seen video examples of what happens with image review on only, need to go back to my local Best-Buy and test it out with the setting off.


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## wockawocka (Nov 24, 2018)

killswitch said:


> Also, anybody seen any video examples of what happens if you turn off the "image review" after each shot? Is it a quick black-out before we see again through the EVF? I have seen video examples of what happens with image review on only, need to go back to my local Best-Buy and test it out with the setting off.



If you turn it off you get zero blackout.

Which is nice. If you set it to 2 secs you can still cancel it by holding the shutter down again.


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## Act444 (Nov 24, 2018)

killswitch said:


> Also, anybody seen any video examples of what happens if you turn off the "image review" after each shot? Is it a quick black-out before we see again through the EVF? I have seen video examples of what happens with image review on only, need to go back to my local Best-Buy and test it out with the setting off.



If you're talking about stills, in my experience, even with IR off there is still a split second delay between shot taken and continuation of EVF feed - basically, what this translates to is a "jerky" movement if you're shooting in burst mode through the viewfinder (or screen for that matter). Can make it real difficult to track subjects/contribute to a "disconnected" feeling with the photographer. This is another drawback of the R (in my eyes) vs. a DSLR...

With IR on I found the camera essentially unusable. I don't want my view interrupted/blocked by the last shot I just took. I had to turn it off on the M cameras as well, but at least those had no EVF.


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## killswitch (Nov 24, 2018)

Act444 said:


> If you're talking about stills, in my experience, even with IR off there is still a split second delay between shot taken and continuation of EVF feed - basically, what this translates to is a "jerky" movement if you're shooting in burst mode through the viewfinder (or screen for that matter). Can make it real difficult to track subjects/contribute to a "disconnected" feeling with the photographer. This is another drawback of the R (in my eyes) vs. a DSLR...
> 
> With IR on I found the camera essentially unusable. I don't want my view interrupted/blocked by the last shot I just took. I had to turn it off on the M cameras as well, but at least those had no EVF.





wockawocka said:


> If you turn it off you get zero blackout.
> 
> Which is nice. If you set it to 2 secs you can still cancel it by holding the shutter down again.



Thanks folks, hmm very interesting. I use my 5D3 to track my one year old son, and since the little one move so fast, I use fast shutter speed to freeze the action and in doing so the shutter black-out is pretty fast or minimal in those situations. I wonder even with fast shutter speed the black-out is noticeable delay/lag through EOS R EVF.

Is Sony's A9 the only one that has no blackout? Or do the A7III, A7R III have no blackout as well? Can anyone here confirm this? Thanks.


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## jd7 (Nov 24, 2018)

Act444 said:


> If you're talking about stills, in my experience, even with IR off there is still a split second delay between shot taken and continuation of EVF feed - basically, what this translates to is a "jerky" movement if you're shooting in burst mode through the viewfinder (or screen for that matter). Can make it real difficult to track subjects/contribute to a "disconnected" feeling with the photographer. This is another drawback of the R (in my eyes) vs. a DSLR...


How does the effect of the stutter in the EVF compare with the blackout in an OVF when the mirror flips up when you take a shot though? I assume the EVF stutter makes for a worse experience, given the various comments I've seen about the EVF making it harder to track a moving subject compared to an OVF, but I'd be interested to hear a bit more detail about it. Anyway, i will have to see if I can get hold of an EOS R at some point and see how much it bothers me.


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## jd7 (Nov 25, 2018)

jd7 said:


> How does the effect of the stutter in the EVF compare with the blackout in an OVF when the mirror flips up when you take a shot though? I assume the EVF stutter makes for a worse experience, given the various comments I've seen about the EVF making it harder to track a moving subject compared to an OVF, but I'd be interested to hear a bit more detail about it. Anyway, i will have to see if I can get hold of an EOS R at some point and see how much it bothers me.


Got a few minutes with an EOS R in a store today.

Really didn't like the touch and drag AF at first but after only a couple of minutes I was already starting to feel a lot happier with it. I wonder how precise you can make it even with practice. Still, overall my guess is I'd find it a pretty good system once I had a bit more time to get used to it.

As for the EVF stutter in continuous shooting mode, I definitely found it more off-putting than OVF blackout on a DSLR. I would need to try it out more though (and the EVF more generally) before I decided if it is a deal breaker for me.


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## Viggo (Nov 25, 2018)

Remember when it comes to evf lag or stutter there is a big difference between using adapted EF lenses and RF lenses and enabling “High speed Display”.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 25, 2018)

Viggo said:


> Remember when it comes to evf lag or stutter there is a big difference between using adapted EF lenses and RF lenses and enabling “High speed Display”.


Can you explain this more? Or link to a deeper discussion? You've thrown two new factors at me here. Can EF lenses use this "High speed Display" option you mention?


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## Viggo (Nov 25, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> Can you explain this more? Or link to a deeper discussion? You've thrown two new factors at me here. Can EF lenses use this "High speed Display" option you mention?



No, the EF lenses I’ve tried has this option grayed out in the menu.

It’s red menu number 6, at the bottom. Page 149 in the manual.


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## YuengLinger (Nov 25, 2018)

Viggo said:


> No, the EF lenses I’ve tried has this option grayed out in the menu.
> 
> It’s red menu number 6, at the bottom. Page 149 in the manual.


And how effectively does this eliminate lag in the EVF when used with RF lenses? We've had comments that the EVF display lags behind real life in bird-in-flight and other action scenarios.

Is High Speed Display enabled by default? Looks, from the manual, like it should be. Who wouldn't want the EVF to be "more responsive, making it easier to follow fast-moving subjects"?


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## Viggo (Nov 25, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> And how effectively does this eliminate lag in the EVF when used with RF lenses? We've had comments that the EVF display lags behind real life in bird-in-flight and other action scenarios.
> 
> Is High Speed Display enabled by default? Looks, from the manual, like it should be. Who wouldn't want the EVF to be "more responsive, making it easier to follow fast-moving subjects"?


I haven’t tried it all that much, but it was definitely better. I’m using the RF50 so no birding

With it disabled I sometimes feel like the VF shows me a long exposure freeze frame with lots of motion blur for a bit to long. But with the RF50 and enabled it’s much faster and shows the last shot for a split second and it goes away faster and it shows the feed again.

All in all it makes tracking that much easier.

The reason it’s disabled sometimes is due to other settings like Anti-flickering etc..


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## wockawocka (Nov 25, 2018)

I'd love an easier way to jump in and out of silent shooting without having to disable anti flicker and burst mode. Seems a bit overly complicated to do it.


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## Viggo (Nov 25, 2018)

wockawocka said:


> I'd love an easier way to jump in and out of silent shooting without having to disable anti flicker and burst mode. Seems a bit overly complicated to do it.


Agreed, but since there’s so much issues with using silent shooting I just treat it as it doesn’t even exist.


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## killswitch (Nov 26, 2018)

Viggo said:


> I haven’t tried it all that much, but it was definitely better. I’m using the RF50 so no birding
> 
> With it disabled I sometimes feel like the VF shows me a long exposure freeze frame with lots of motion blur for a bit to long. But with the RF50 and enabled it’s much faster and shows the last shot for a split second and it goes away faster and it shows the feed again.
> 
> ...



That's new for me, I have to go back to my local BestBuy and try this out. So if I mount an EF lens via the adapter that option is grayed out and I will essentially run the risk of having a slightly more lag/refresh screen in my EVF between shots? As long as the pause between shots is not jarring it's ok but if it feels distracting then bummer =( Software update could potentially fix this no?


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## Viggo (Nov 26, 2018)

killswitch said:


> That's new for me, I have to go back to my local BestBuy and try this out. So if I mount an EF lens via the adapter that option is grayed out and I will essentially run the risk of having a slightly more lag/refresh screen in my EVF between shots? As long as the pause between shots is not jarring it's ok but if it feels distracting then bummer =( Software update could potentially fix this no?


Yes, when doing fast tracking and shooting bursts it will be much better with RF lenses.

It will not be fixed with firmware as the reason is much faster data back and forth between lens and camera is one of the advantages of the RF mount that the EF lenses doesn’t support.


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## jd7 (Nov 26, 2018)

Viggo said:


> Yes, when doing fast tracking and shooting bursts it will be much better with RF lenses.
> 
> It will not be fixed with firmware as the reason is much faster data back and forth between lens and camera is one of the advantages of the RF mount that the EF lenses doesn’t support.


I've been keeping an eye on this conversation as I'm interested to hear more about what the EVF is like when tracking fast-moving subjects and shooting bursts. I have to say though I am not following why data transfer between lens and camera would be relevant to that. The image sensor and the EVF are both in the camera body, and I wouldn't have expected any need for data to be transferred from the lens in relation to the EVF feed. What am I missing?


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## BillB (Nov 26, 2018)

jd7 said:


> I've been keeping an eye on this conversation as I'm interested to hear more about what the EVF is like when tracking fast-moving subjects and shooting bursts. I have to say though I am not following why data transfer between lens and camera would be relevant to that. The image sensor and the EVF are both in the camera body, and I wouldn't have expected any need for data to be transferred from the lens in relation to the EVF feed. What am I missing?


The concern is over the refresh rate, which depends partly on how fast the lens refocusses.


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## koenkooi (Nov 26, 2018)

BillB said:


> The concern is over the refresh rate, which depends partly on how fast the lens refocusses.



To take that argument to the logical extreme: with an MP-E 65mm the display won't refresh since that lens is fixed-focus? 

It sounds like Canon tied the 'focus' and 'read sensor' loops together, which works if the camera can talk to the lens really fast, but not if there's a bottleneck like the 'old and slow' EF protocol.


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## BillB (Nov 26, 2018)

koenkooi said:


> To take that argument to the logical extreme: with an MP-E 65mm the display won't refresh since that lens is fixed-focus?
> 
> It sounds like Canon tied the 'focus' and 'read sensor' loops together, which works if the camera can talk to the lens really fast, but not if there's a bottleneck like the 'old and slow' EF protocol.


To refresh the EVF, the lens needs to be refocused to provide the current information to be used in the refresh.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 27, 2018)

koenkooi said:


> To take that argument to the logical extreme: with an MP-E 65mm the display won't refresh since that lens is fixed-focus?
> 
> It sounds like Canon tied the 'focus' and 'read sensor' loops together, which works if the camera can talk to the lens really fast, but not if there's a bottleneck like the 'old and slow' EF protocol.


How often do you use a MPE-65 for tracking birds


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Nov 27, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> How often do you use a MPE-65 for tracking birds


Tiny little birds...


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## LSXPhotog (Nov 28, 2018)

killswitch said:


> I agree with you regarding the mode dial issue. it's really ok the way it is in EOS R. However, I am curious what you think about the touch screen functionality in the following scenarios 1) touch screen af usability under extreme weather conditions where you are wearing thick gloves. 2) M-fn touch bar under the same extreme conditions and wearing thick gloves 3) taking a shot through the EVF, are you able to select/reach the AF points on the left edge of the AF region in one go in absolute mode? I tried setting up the AF region to be on the top right corner of the actual touch-screen even then my thumb could not reach the left edge of the AF points without loosening my grip. Alternate way for me was to set it to relative mode and swipe twice/thrice to reach those AF points on the left edge. Is there are AF-drag speed setting (like PC mouse, track-ball) on EOS-R? I may have missed?



You bring up some extremely interesting points.

1.) I recently shot the camera in both wet and cold weather. My gloves actually have touchscreen functionality so it wasn't a problem at all. I didn't notice water impacting the screen, so it must not have been an issue - but it also didn't get very wet and I wasn't moving my AF point very much with what I was shooting.

2.) I have the entire right side disabled and the left side only turns on/off Eye Detect. Swiping changes my AF area mode and I didn't change it...I could see this being a problem for people who have something important assigned to it. I honestly don't like the Mfn. Bar at all. Physical buttons would be much more useful to me there...this is a very valid consideration I will test next month in the snow with gloves. 

3.) This is exactly what I meant when I said "after you've gotten used to using it" because you get really used to its behavior. Moving from one side to the other is a very massive movement in terms of how many AF points it has to navigate over. After a few hours of using the camera it was really easy to understand how to move the point around to exactly where I wanted it to be. I now prefer this method over the joystick and I don't see how I would do this with a joystick...you would have to click it hundreds of times. Once you obtain the muscle memory on how to do this effectively it is a cinch .


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## killswitch (Nov 28, 2018)

LSXPhotog said:


> You bring up some extremely interesting points.
> 
> 1.) I recently shot the camera in both wet and cold weather. My gloves actually have touchscreen functionality so it wasn't a problem at all. I didn't notice water impacting the screen, so it must not have been an issue - but it also didn't get very wet and I wasn't moving my AF point very much with what I was shooting.
> 
> ...



Thanks for reply. I agree, in hindsight I think touchscreen makes more sense for the AF selection.

I am trying to find the comment where someone mentioned about banding. Anybody here have experienced banding in their photos when using 1) flash unit 2) electronic shutter ? Can anyone verify this? I know Tony Northrup dude showed the example of banding when lifting shadows or high ISO (I cannot remember) in one of his video .


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## Larsskv (Nov 28, 2018)

killswitch said:


> Thanks for reply. I agree, in hindsight I think touchscreen makes more sense for the AF selection.
> 
> I am trying to find the comment where someone mentioned about banding. Anybody here have experienced banding in their photos when using 1) flash unit 2) electronic shutter ? Can anyone verify this? I know Tony Northrup dude showed the example of banding when lifting shadows or high ISO (I cannot remember) in one of his video .



Viggo has problems with banding when using strobes and triggers. I did not get banding when I tried, using a Canon 600 RT flash or Canon radio trigger. 

I however, have seen banding on black fabric in deep shadow areas, when there are bright highlights in the frame. It appears at approximately 4,5 stops exposure lifting. My 5DIV appears to be slightly better, showing banding at 5 stops exposure lifting. The difference might be explained by a difference in exposure values. 

For my use, I don’t think banding will be much of a real world issue. It could perhaps be an issue for landscape shooters who desire details in every shadow area, and adjust the exposure 4,5+ stops. HDR will be a workaround those rare occasions. 

Personally, at least from my copy of the R, I don’t consider banding to be a consideration worth taking into account when buying the R.


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## Viggo (Nov 28, 2018)

That’s true, with flash it’s horrible, I’m using Broncolor RFS 2.2. I have reported it and have a dialogue with Canon regarding this and other bugs and issues. Hopefully they can recreate and solve.


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## LSXPhotog (Nov 28, 2018)

*BANDING:*
If you're experiencing banding when using off camera flash, this is a result of the electronic first curtain shutter that the EOS R shoots with by default.

*HOW TO CORRECT:*
1.) Go to Camera Menus, Page 6, Silent LV shoot.
2.) By default, this is set to Mode 1. Change this to Disable.
3.) You're done. This will make the camera slightly louder during shooting, but it will eliminate the electronic first curtain shutter and get rid of banding when working with flashes in High Speed Sync.


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## LSXPhotog (Nov 28, 2018)

Viggo said:


> That’s true, with flash it’s horrible, I’m using Broncolor RFS 2.2. I have reported it and have a dialogue with Canon regarding this and other bugs and issues. Hopefully they can recreate and solve.


See my above post.


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## dtgphoto (Nov 28, 2018)

I love mine. Changed from 5d Mark iv that I had for a couple of years.

2 real issues with the R for me..

1: when i am shooting in the rain, the IR sensor gets confused about water on it and refuses to allow the screen to work.

2: I set the mfn bar to just have taps at either end for either iso 100 or auto iso. Sometimes when pressing the auto iso end it says not available.

Apart from these minor issues I love it and prefer to my 5div.


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## Viggo (Nov 28, 2018)

LSXPhotog said:


> See my above post.


Not solving the problem at all, sorry...


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## LSXPhotog (Nov 28, 2018)

Viggo said:


> Not solving the problem at all, sorry...


Bummer! Do you have example images you could share? This solved the problem for myself and several others when it was brought up.


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## Viggo (Nov 29, 2018)

LSXPhotog said:


> Bummer! Do you have example images you could share? This solved the problem for myself and several others when it was brought up.


Yes, I posted it in your other thread about this


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## wockawocka (Nov 29, 2018)

LSXPhotog said:


> *BANDING:*
> If you're experiencing banding when using off camera flash, this is a result of the electronic first curtain shutter that the EOS R shoots with by default.
> 
> *HOW TO CORRECT:*
> ...



Is the issue only in HSS?


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## Viggo (Nov 29, 2018)

wockawocka said:


> Is the issue only in HSS?


No, it’s even when the trigger is off, only sits in the hot shoe.


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## LSXPhotog (Nov 29, 2018)

wockawocka said:


> Is the issue only in HSS?



I only have the issue in HSS, yes. But apparently others are having it at other times as well.


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## LSXPhotog (Nov 29, 2018)

Viggo said:


> Yes, I posted it in your other thread about this


I shared my photo in the thread just now showing what I'm describing. Your issue looks similar to the banding I saw when I pushed images 4-5+ stops in Lightroom or DPP on my 5D Mark IV and even with the EOS R. The sensors have some funky thing going on for sure...but it honestly never impacted my photos over my time with using it.


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