# Canon's Full Frame Mirorrless Cameras [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 5, 2018)

```
Canon will release two full frame mirrorless cameras before the middle of 2019, the first one to come will be the “flagship” model for this new line of cameras. <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/the-full-list-of-unreleased-canon-camera-ids/">As reported earlier</a>, this camera will sport a 30.4mp sensor that could be closely related to the EOS 5D Mark IV.</p>
<p>The second full frame mirrorless body will be a lower megapixel count. We’ve seen mentions of various pixel counts, which isn’t unusual, as test cameras can come with a wide array of different image sensors. The most likely pixel count will be around 24mp, we do not believe they’ll be using the EOS 6D Mark II’s 26.2mp sensor, or even a modified version of it.</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<p>Both cameras will shoot 4K, with the “flagship” model providing the best video features.</p>
<p>We’re also told that there’s a possibility of a removable EVF on one of the cameras, which we think would be reserved for the lower end full frame mirrorless camera.</p>
<p>We’re told that there are currently no plans to release a camera that will compete directly with Sony’s high ISO capable Alpha a7s II.</p>
<p><strong>What about the mount?</strong></p>
<p>We cannot get a straight answer about this. We’ve been told everything from a new mount to EF mount. One trusted source told us that the full frame mirrorless camera and EF mount problem has a “sexy” solution. We’re not sure what that means, but it’s the best news we’ve received on the topic.</p>
<p><strong>When are they coming?</strong></p>
<p>Both camera bodies will be shipping by mid 2019, but the exact announcement date for the first camera is unknown at this time.</p>
<p><strong>What will they be called?</strong></p>
<p>For the moment we only have codenames, but “EOS M1” has yet to be used by Canon. Other than that, no naming suggestions have been sent our way.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
```


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## Jim Saunders (Jul 5, 2018)

If it will mount EF lenses and sync flash at 1/1000 I'm interested. Everything else is a bonus.

Jim


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## Etienne (Jul 5, 2018)

Another year. Then several months to see test results. With other delays (quite common), it could be a year and a half. You need the patience of Job for this.


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## Cryve (Jul 5, 2018)

I wonder why they limit the higher pixel count body to "only" 30 mp. does it have something to do with the dual pixel system? 

I dont understand why they, as it seems, only have a difference of 6mp between their "enthusias" and "pro" modell compared to nikon and sony where it is 24mp - 40+ mp


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## traveller (Jul 5, 2018)

By mid-2019 the 5D4’s sensor is going to be looking a touch outdated. With Sony consolidating their position and Nikon soon to re-enter the arena, Canon need a strong entry into full-frame mirrorless to generate some buzz.


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## edoorn (Jul 5, 2018)

It's not said of course it will be the same sensor (considering 2019 is 3 years after 5D4 launch; I would assume they've learned something from the 6D II). Might be an updated version or even a whole new one.


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## CanoKnight (Jul 5, 2018)

By the time these hit, everyone will own a Sony. But not to worry because it will be spec'ed well below the Sony and priced well above it.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 5, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> <p><strong>What about the mount?</strong></p>
> <p>We cannot get a straight answer about this. We’ve been told everything from a new mount to EF mount. One trusted source told us that the full frame mirrorless camera and EF mount problem has a “sexy” solution. We’re not sure what that means,



Mila Kunis clone carries an adapter for you?


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## infared (Jul 5, 2018)

I am so set-up with FF DSLR and Lenses and mirrorless MFT Kit and every lens available...even converted an MFT body to infrared...Got it all covered!  GREAT time to be a still photographer.
If Canon comes of with a "completely up-to-date" mirrorless body that takes my existing EF lenses and allows them to work in "all aspects" and as "good or BETTER" than they do now on my 5DIV, then I will buy that body immediately. 
If not....oh well. 8)
Honestly...with the history of this company, I am not expecting a whole lot, to be honest.
...but, we will see.....whenever....


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## takesome1 (Jul 5, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> By the time these hit, everyone will own a Sony. But not to worry because it will be spec'ed well below the Sony and priced well above it.



You hope so, otherwise you will have nothing relevant to say.


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## BasXcanon (Jul 5, 2018)

Everything we wanted to know, we know now.....
Canikons are just finding the niches in the market.

Sony FF will have the largest portfolio of irl *bodies*.

Leica FF will stay the best IQ

Nikon FF will be to compensate for not having 1.2 lenses on their F mount bodies.

Canon FF will be there leaning on their 30 years old EF lenses line, probably more gadgets like Dual pixel focus and Ghost/Flare correction for NATIVE lenses only.

Canon 2nd FF line will be sans EVF and 35mm F5.6 prime lens. To make as compact as possibly body.

End of the story, since the LP E6N batterie affaire: the Canon 1DX line stays the only one offering 12V to the lens motors of the White's ones.


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## takesome1 (Jul 5, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > <p><strong>What about the mount?</strong></p>
> ...



Mila Kunis clone carries the adapter and Jim Beam for you, she also poses if you need a risque model.

But on the real side: _"Shut up, Meg!"_


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

Jim Saunders said:


> If it will mount EF lenses and sync flash at 1/1000 I'm interested.



Don't you need a leaf shutter in the lens for that to be possible?

- A


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## Canoneer (Jul 5, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> Canon will release two full frame mirrorless cameras before the middle of 2019, the first one to come will be the “flagship” model for this new line of cameras. <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/the-full-list-of-unreleased-canon-camera-ids/">As reported earlier</a>, this camera will sport a 30.4mp sensor that could be closely related to the EOS 5D Mark IV.</p>
> <p>We cannot get a straight answer about this. We’ve been told everything from a new mount to EF mount. One trusted source told us that the full frame mirrorless camera and EF mount problem has a “sexy” solution. We’re not sure what that means, but it’s the best news we’ve received on the topic.</p>
> <span id="pty_trigger"></span>



I really, really hope it's a new short-flange mirrorless mount. That opens the doors for smaller & lighter glass, and hopefully smaller & lighter bodies. 

As to the "sexy solution", maybe that's going to be a weather-sealed EOS EF-to-EOS EF-M adapter with a mirror box and PDAF module tucked inside; it could connect to a detachable pentaprism that would be locked into place over the hotshoe. That would give photographers the option of a pure OVF if they wanted - plus less expensive standard smart adapters will be readily available if all you want/need is an EVF.

I prefer OVF for the time being, and really only envision myself buying a mirrorless body as my primary camera if the EVF is 4+ million dots @ 60+ FPS. But I doubt these first-gen FF Canon mirrorless bodies will be packing those


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## tron (Jul 5, 2018)

I do not understand people wanting another mount. It will be kind of optimal only for some fixed wide angle lenses and nothing else.

See a comparison between Canon 5DMkIV and Sony A7RIII all using 24-70 2.8 lenses

https://camerasize.com/compact/#682.286,724.515,ha,t


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

Cryve said:


> I wonder why they limit the higher pixel count body to "only" 30 mp. does it have something to do with the dual pixel system?



Just speculating here, but they may just drop a 6D2 and 5D4 sensor into these models. If they could get away with this, it would be a huge win for Canon not to have to design/fab a new sensor.

- A


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## BillB (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Cryve said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why they limit the higher pixel count body to "only" 30 mp. does it have something to do with the dual pixel system?
> ...



Alternatively, the idea all along may have been to give to the new less expensive mirrorless the sensor that everybody wanted the 6DII to have, and let the 6DII find a price point well below the A7III.


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## takesome1 (Jul 5, 2018)

Canoneer said:


> *As to the "sexy solution", maybe that's going to be a weather-sealed EOS EF-to-EOS EF-M adapter with a mirror box and PDAF module tucked inside; it could connect to a detachable pentaprism that would be locked into place over the hotshoe. That would give photographers the option of a pure OVF if they wanted - plus less expensive standard smart adapters will be readily available if all you want/need is an EVF.*



This defies my understanding of "sexy".


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## bergstrom (Jul 5, 2018)

If the flagship models doesn't have the same features as the sony a7iii and more , then forget it. People will just stick with the sony.


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## bergstrom (Jul 5, 2018)

Jim Saunders said:


> If it will mount EF lenses and sync flash at 1/1000 I'm interested. Everything else is a bonus.
> 
> Jim



1/1000 wouldn't be enough, at least 1/8000


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## bergstrom (Jul 5, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> By the time these hit, everyone will own a Sony. But not to worry because it will be spec'ed well below the Sony and priced well above it.



if they don't come under the same price as the a7iii did, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Commercial suicide.


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## deleteme (Jul 5, 2018)

Canon Rumors said:


> One trusted source told us that the full frame mirrorless camera and EF mount problem has a “sexy” solution.



I am all tingly already.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Jim Saunders said:
> 
> 
> > If it will mount EF lenses and sync flash at 1/1000 I'm interested.
> ...



The advantages of leaf shutters are overestimated because people don't understand what they do at higher shutter speeds (heavy vignetting and an effective second aperture, also they need very fast flash times that severely limit the flash output), global shutters have the potential to offer the kinds of advantages most think of when they think of leaf shutters but they still have issues and good ones, due to the processing power and electronic layout needed, seem to be expensive (and nothing can overcome the flash output speed issue except big money). I believe global shutters are the way forward though, and in ten years we will be wondering why anybody ever didn't have them. A bit like vertical moving focal plane shutters followed on from horizontal moving focal plane shutters, why would anybody ever make a horizontal moving focal plane shutter!


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

BillB said:


> Alternatively, the idea all along may have been to give to the new less expensive mirrorless the sensor that everybody wanted the 6DII to have



Sure. I never said dropping the 6D2 sensor into another camera would be a _good_ idea. 

I'm not bashing the 6D2 -- I'm sure it take lovely pictures. But Canon absolutely hosed every amateur landscapers with a 6D1 by telling them their prayers were answered for a new camera with an amazing new sensor... _and that new camera was a $3299 5D4._

In effect, the 6D2 was Canon apologizing to all 5D users that a lower priced product would never have a better sensor than their beloved 5D ever again.

- A


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## BillB (Jul 5, 2018)

bergstrom said:


> CanoKnight said:
> 
> 
> > By the time these hit, everyone will own a Sony. But not to worry because it will be spec'ed well below the Sony and priced well above it.
> ...



Maybe price competitive with the A7III, but don't see why they need to come in under it, unless you want to figure lenses into the equation.


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

bergstrom said:


> If the flagship models doesn't have the same features as the sony a7iii and more , then forget it. People will just stick with the sony.



Right, because the 5D4 and 6D2 -- wildly underspec'd to their Sony counterparts -- were both unmitigtated disasters. 

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

bergstrom said:


> CanoKnight said:
> 
> 
> > By the time these hit, everyone will own a Sony. But not to worry because it will be spec'ed well below the Sony and priced well above it.
> ...



Canon isn't trying to win the general market with this first pass. They are trying to sell everyone Canon users an FF mirrorless camera to use their Canon glass with. Just like they did with EOS M in crop.

They don't give two hoots about Sony right now -- the first wave of FF mirrorless is to pluck the lowest of hanging fruit and get a fat payday from the pent-up demand of current users who don't want to switch systems, buy new lenses, etc. I think it will be priced relative to the Canon SLR it is spec'd like. 

- A


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## infared (Jul 5, 2018)

tron said:


> I do not understand people wanting another mount. It will be kind of optimal only for some fixed wide angle lenses and nothing else.
> 
> See a comparison between Canon 5DMkIV and Sony A7RIII all using 24-70 2.8 lenses
> 
> https://camerasize.com/compact/#682.286,724.515,ha,t



Good point. I am very happy with all my current cameras (Canon: FF extensive kit, Olympus: VERY extensive kit with mutiple bodies)...but if I could buy a GREAT (Don't screw this up Canon!), mirrorless body for my existing EF lenses, I would gladly pay for it. The more features the better!!!!!!!! They need to get it right the first time after joining the party soooooooooo late!!!


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

infared said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > I do not understand people wanting another mount. It will be kind of optimal only for some fixed wide angle lenses and nothing else.
> ...



They have to do _both_ a new and EF mount, I think. 

Why? There's a large chunk of the prospective mirrorless buying folks out there who routinely say "Mirrorless is all about being small", aka 'If you just pull the mirror out of an SLR in the same footprint, why even make it?' These folks' opinions on the matter don't seem to change -- they find a smaller body + lens combo to be attractive. You cannot talk these folks down or explain to them that you've overthought this issue to the point that they should concede the point to you.

It would be foolish to assume these folks are idiots, or that they don't recognize that size savings go out the window with pro glass. I believe these folks are well read and understand the fine print, recognize that a thin mount means adaptors, that a thin mount does not remotely herald the end of EF, that new native lenses will have to be purchased, and yes, in some case, a similar overall size with faster glass. And yet, that's still the camera they want.

_And Canon is (possibly) prepared to accept them as 'mind made up' segments of the market, and give them the camera they want._

So I want EF personally, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if Canon leads with a thin mount and follows with EF later.

- A


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## unfocused (Jul 5, 2018)

BillB said:


> I would be very reluctant to recommend a fullframe camera to anyone who isn't interested in printing on A3 paper or maybe even larger, and even then I might well suggest starting with something smaller. The minimum buyin cost for printing A3 using a fullframe camera is something north of $5000, with any kind of lens selection at all. And then there is the investment in time needed to learn how to use that equipment well. This is not pictures of grandchildren in the park territory.



This is a point that needs to be driven home repeatedly. 

Full frame cameras are a niche market. Full frame mirrorless cameras are a niche within a niche. 

Anyone who thinks that Canon's or Nikon's entrance into the full frame mirrorless camera market is either "disruptive" or will have a significant impact on the viability of any manufacturer is sadly mistaken. 

Yes, this represents a potentially lucrative market, otherwise Canon and Nikon would not be entering the market. But it is in no way going to be a game changer or have a significant impact on the overall trends in digital photography. 

It's fun to debate these esoteric points about lens mounts, etc., but please keep in mind that all of this amounts to a very small portion of the market.


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

unfocused said:


> Full frame cameras are a niche market. Full frame mirrorless cameras are a niche within a niche.



...except for a good chunk of people who disagree with that second part. Some folks believe mirrorless will eventually supplant SLRs (I do, though not anytime soon), so they are a niche of the FF market today but will *be* the FF market down the road.

As such, some folks think it's a big deal. I happen to be one of them. I believe Canon and Nikon feel this way as well (despite their lack of public activity in this segment) and have been very very very carefully sizing up the market and making very careful decisions about how to enter it.

I appreciate how few FF bodies are in the wild vs. crop, vs. cell phones, etc. but the FF ecosystem is where the good stuff happens and it's fun to speculate about. 

- A


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## Don Haines (Jul 5, 2018)

+1.....

remember when people were saying that digital cameras would never replace film  When they can build a mirrorless camera that costs less to manufacture than a comparable DSLR, you know which way the manufacturers are going to lean....


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## BillB (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Full frame cameras are a niche market. Full frame mirrorless cameras are a niche within a niche.
> ...



But as you point out, even if mirrorless takes over the fullframe niche, apparently there will still be two subniches, the big camera people and the little camera people. And we don't know at this point how many of the little camera fullframe people there will really be when the little camera people have to choose between expensive fullframe little cameras and even smaller less expensive aps-c cameras. Canon may be in a good position to lure both the big camera people and the little camera people, while Sony and Nikon seem to be more tilted toward the little camera side, without much presence in the aps-c world. Sony may have actually figured out a way to get caught in the middle, mostly because of the size and price of many of its lenses. Apparently Nikon is going to try to open the bidding with a $4K camera, with the one available native lens included as part of the kit.


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## unfocused (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Full frame cameras are a niche market. Full frame mirrorless cameras are a niche within a niche.
> ...





Don Haines said:


> +1.....
> 
> remember when people were saying that digital cameras would never replace film  When they can build a mirrorless camera that costs less to manufacture than a comparable DSLR, you know which way the manufacturers are going to lean....





BillB said:


> But as you point out, even if mirrorless takes over the fullframe niche, apparently there will still be two subniches, the big camera people and the little camera people. And we don't know at this point how many of the little camera fullframe people there will really be when the little camera people have to choose between expensive fullframe little cameras and even smaller less expensive aps-c cameras. Canon may be in a good position to lure both the big camera people and the little camera people, while Sony and Nikon seem to be more tilted toward the little camera side, without much presence in the aps-c world. Sony may have actually figured out a way to get caught in the middle, mostly because of the size and price of many of its lenses. Apparently Nikon is going to try to open the bidding with a $4K camera, with the one available native lens included as part of the kit.



All good points. I'm just trying to keep things in perspective. As Bill pointed out earlier, the cost of entry into the full frame world remains very high. Out of reach for at least 90% of the population in wealthy countries.

I can't shake the feeling that this forum is obsessed with full frame when the real action may be in APS-C and smaller. If size and cost are driving forces, the EOS-M and the SLx lines hold far more potential growth and opportunity for innovation than full frame.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jul 5, 2018)

Come on Canon. 30Mpix in a flagship 2019 model isn't satisfactory. We want more pixels and better DR for landscapes.

As to the universal mount compatible to EF, mark my words, it'll be a shifting sensor. You attach an EF lens and the sensor automatically moves backwards. A bit thicker body will be needed (compared to Sony) but well worth the compatibility. As a side effect, you also get an in-body tilt like in large format film cameras. This will kill all the competitors.


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## snoke (Jul 5, 2018)

New camera have 5D Mark IV sensor? Can't understand Canon.

Reason: stop eat 5Ds Mark II lunch?

Nikon + Sony eat Canon lunch now.


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> +1.....
> 
> remember when people were saying that digital cameras would never replace film  When they can build a mirrorless camera that costs less to manufacture than a comparable DSLR, you know which way the manufacturers are going to lean....



We *believe* it will cost more because they won't need:


Mirrorbox, mirror, moving armatures, etc.
OVF components: pentaprism, OVF screen, diopter adjustment, etc.
Secondary mirror for AF

But we don't know the costs for the EVF (could be super high res, articulating, magnify-able, etc.) or any added computational componentry to support full time DPAF use, added cooling burden, etc.

And SLRs get huge cost savings through volumes FF mirrorless could only dream of right now.

So, yes, it will be cheaper... _someday_. Not out of the gate. I'm expecting a product that will be charged at a premium vs. the same-spec'd SLR. Does the same job in a smaller footprint, so please pay (idk) $300 more for the privilege.

- A


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## Uneternal (Jul 5, 2018)

"Sexy solution" could be another hint to the protruding element. Just saying...


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

unfocused said:


> I can't shake the feeling that this forum is obsessed with full frame when the real action may be in APS-C and smaller. If size and cost are driving forces, the EOS-M and the SLx lines hold far more potential growth and opportunity for innovation than full frame.



A+. Agree completely. APS-C has simultaneously all of these things going for it:


Way more units and dollars flowing in
Much higher percentage of first-time camera buyers = fewer dug-in obsessives who resist certain changes, more folks willing to trust the manufacturer to figure out the hard bits for them
The 800 pound EF gorilla is not on the brand's shoulders for future decisions: there are far fewer lenses to worry about obsoleting, replacing, or having to 'keep' up with developments on another mount.
Much lower risk (I mean financial exposure) of existing users in this market taking their business to another company

Which equals waaaaaay less headwind for innovation. You are spot on.

And while we in FF get spun up about on chip ADC and BR goo and what not, crop has delivered the following firsts for Canon:


Tilty-flippy, touchscreen, etc.
Illuminated macro
Super sharp pancake lenses (EOS M's happened before the EF 40, right?)
STM, Nano USM and power zoom for hybrid shooters who want smooth video AF
The super tiny SL# brand

- A


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## Aaron D (Jul 5, 2018)

> It would be foolish to assume these folks are idiots, or that they don't recognize that size savings go out the window with pro glass.



ahsanford is a rare rational mind in the blog-o-sphere! Give him cookies!

Yes, there are those of us who would like a smaller camera. EVEN IF it's only small-ish with certain lenses that are optimized to a short flange distance and EVEN IF it has no effect on most other lenses. 

I don't expect my 5d4 to be the last camera I own. Same with my current lenses. I earn my living with these things and they are tools. I don't love my cameras though I like them a lot, they're tools and I will buy more when I need to. I'm excited to see the technology advance, it's fun. We can be outraged by current and future failures in the techno-minutia arms race, but if we can collectively take a deep breath, I don't imagine there's anyone on this list who would complain that Canon takes nasty photos or are impossible to hold in their hands. 

[/rant] and apologies.

A


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> Yes, there are those of us who would like a smaller camera. EVEN IF it's only small-ish with certain lenses that are optimized to a short flange distance and EVEN IF it has no effect on most other lenses.



I may be one of the few people here that wants a full EF mirrorless but would end up getting a thin-mount FF mirrorless.

I value seamlessness, own a number of EF lenses and love love love my 5D3 grip, ergonomics, screen, etc. But I also would like a smaller rig for travel or unplanned outings, even if it's only smaller with a 35 f/2.8 bolted on to it.

I certainly won't be an early adopter if EOS M (original) is any indication. I'm expecting functional but underwhelming, and that says to wait for the better one to come down the road.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> As to the universal mount compatible to EF, mark my words, it'll be a shifting sensor. You attach an EF lens and the sensor automatically moves backwards. A bit thicker body will be needed (compared to Sony) but well worth the compatibility. As a side effect, you also get an in-body tilt like in large format film cameras. This will kill all the competitors.



That will mean it is as thick/deep as an EF SLR, which will equal no size savings at all. Why do that just for a cool tilt effect? 

If you want cake and eating it too (native EF + magical size savings), surely going full EF with 'EF-X' lenses protruding into the body would be the way to go. This would be a lot easier to pull off than a moving sensor plane, and these lenses (at least the portion sticking out from the EF mount) would be smaller.

Also: 'automatically moves' implies you've left the power on while you are changing out. Not everyone does that -- some folks are changing out lenses at the start of a shoot, just after the body is pulled out of their bag. There won't be a mirror to bang into, of course, but each time you start your camera there would be some shooting lag as it resets.

- A


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## KirkD (Jul 5, 2018)

Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.


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## martti (Jul 5, 2018)

Something might actually be happening as there are specials on 5D4. I got myself one. It is great. Somehow, I feel so ignorant not having an opinion about the FF mirrorless that nobody has seen yet.
My guess is that we'll see a 5D5 before the FF mirrorless.


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

KirkD said:


> Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.



For landscapers, this conversation seems to be an easy one. I assume:
(please straighten me out if I've missed something)


You don't need/want an AA filter (almost always, there are exceptions)
You need base ISO DR a lot more than high ISO performance (unless you shooting landscape _astro_)
You don't need first party AF (indeed, possibly no AF needed at all)
You are sitting on a tripod, so you don't need a super comfy grip or a jillion buttons to drive the shooting experience through the viewfinder in real time
You probably need to lug this on your back to get to some sweet vista, so saving size/space is probably a good thing

All of the above points to bolting your EF glass on an A7. Why not do that? 

...or you can wait for the 5DSR2, which we all assume will get the on-chip ADC hotness of the 1DX2, 5D4, 80D, etc.

- A


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## WeekendWarrior (Jul 5, 2018)

I'm curious why they keep using a Leica Q with "EOS" written on it to advertise the new Canon mirrorless camera.. lol we all know its not going to look that good


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## Cryve (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> KirkD said:
> 
> 
> > Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.
> ...



whats the chance of them implementing no AA filter? i'd love if they do that, especialy for the 7d iii but so far canon hasnt kept my hopes up for that.


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

Cryve said:


> whats the chance of them implementing no AA filter? i would love that they would do that, especialy for the 7d iii but so far canon hasnt kept my hopes up for that.



We presume the resolution-needing folks will get a choice with the next two 5DS models, i.e. one would expect a 5DSR2 to happen.

But despite everyone making fun of Canon's video specs, they pride themselves on making cameras well built to shift from stills to video. They've introduced a ton of tech to make video work well -- DPAF + tilty-flippy + touch greaty facilitates stills folks to reel in some video. And video with an AA filter can be problematic, right?

So I've always heard that pulling the AA filter is a step _towards_ stills / detail obsessives and a step _away_ from all-around use. Someone please straighten me out if that's no longer the case, if AA-free sensors can now reel in great video, etc. 

- A


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## Cryve (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Cryve said:
> 
> 
> > whats the chance of them implementing no AA filter? i would love that they would do that, especialy for the 7d iii but so far canon hasnt kept my hopes up for that.
> ...



i would also be interested in this. 
I have an 80d (24mp, AA filter) and have compared it with a friend who has a nikon d 500 (21mp, no AA filter) and even tho he has 3 mp less his pictures have more detail. I know lenses play a role but the lenses we used are about on par with sharpness. 

So as far as i know AA makes a huge difference and i would REALLY like to see no AA in the 7d iii for wildlife stills


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## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

WeekendWarrior said:


> I'm curious why they keep using a Leica Q with "EOS" written on it to advertise the new Canon mirrorless camera.. lol we all know its not going to look that good



Speak for yourself. 

Pretty bodies without any grip to wield L lenses looks pretty damn awful to me. Go slap the 35 f/1.4L II in that picture on to a first-gen EOS M and tell me how your wrist feels in 60 seconds. 

The Leica Q looks like it's made for people with Lego hands -- they (and Sony with the RX1R cameras) only get away with it because it's a fixed-lens design.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

Cryve said:


> So as far as i know AA makes a huge difference and i would REALLY like to see no AA in the 7d iii for wildlife stills



'Huge' can be debated. I remember Kai Wong comparing the D800 vs. the D800E years back and stating only lenses at their absolute sharpest apertures showed improvement.

While Uncle Rog at LR showed more improvement with 5DS R over the 5DS, but it varied as a function of the quality of the lens:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/06/canon-5ds-and-5ds-r-initial-resolution-tests/

I think it helps. I don't shoot video or (that many) screen doors or patterned fabrics, so I am inclined to try an AA-free camera. But I'm not sure Canon's going to give me one in my preferred FF all-arounder (5D#) segment. 

- A


----------



## Cryve (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Cryve said:
> 
> 
> > So as far as i know AA makes a huge difference and i would REALLY like to see no AA in the 7d iii for wildlife stills
> ...



i looked at the links and it eased my mind a bit. even tho the difference at the shaprest glass they compared was about 10% it was only about 5 ish % with lower quality glass.

When i compared my 80d to his d500 i used my tamron 150-600g2 and he his nikkor 200-500. I thought bouth are about the same from online reviews but it seems like his copy might be sharper then?

maybe a well made canon 200-500 (instead of an unrealistic 200-600) could be very nice then, if it is really sharp.

i hope i didnt divert too much from the full frame mirrorless discussion but this was important to me


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

Also, going back to CR Guy's original post on this thread, calling any of these offerings 'the flagship one' would be a terrible error, IMHO.

Sony and Nikon continue to push a 'best FF (non-gripped)' body narrative with supercameras of late: A7R3, A99-II, D850, etc. They are trying to push a cake-and-eat-it-too camera with high resolution, high framerate, and a top top sensor. This is not Canon's approach to segmentation -- not at all.

It would be foolish to frame something up as a flagship offering when the competition might drive Canon to follow suit with a supercamera of their own. To call it flagship at launch would imply that Canon thinks their own FF segmentation assumptions are correct and that they can tip their hand that this will be the nicest FF mirrorless offering that will be coming.

It would be wiser to simply call it a rig for professionals and enthusiasts alike, see how it does in the market and ratchet up/down lines with future offerings (possibly as planned, possibly course-corrected based on market reception, sales, etc.).

I say this because I have a lingering suspicion Sony is going to pull a Sony and announce something absurdly spec'd the week (if not the very same day) Canon and Nikon out their FF mirrorless products. Like an A9 II or A7R IV or something with the specs of a fanboy fever dream.

- A


----------



## jeffpoker (Jul 5, 2018)

bergstrom said:


> If the flagship models doesn't have the same features as the sony a7iii and more , then forget it. People will just stick with the sony.



I would disagree. Current Canon users are waiting for Canon to release something so they can still use their lenses.

But, I would agree that some of them are just waiting to see how serious Canon is before making the jump. If Canon doesn't show a REAL interest with these two releases, then I think a lot of Canon shooters that want to go mirrorless will move to Sony.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

jeffpoker said:


> But, I would agree that some of them are just waiting to see how serious Canon is before making the jump. If Canon doesn't show a REAL interest with these two releases, then I think a lot of Canon shooters that want to go mirrorless will move to Sony.



Agree, but Canon simply won't go pound for pound with Sony as (a) it's not their MO to overpromise and underpromise on the shooting experience and (b) they are they market leader and they do not have to pack this thing up like an A7 to sell well.

However, I do think that if Canon does indeed just roll out a time-adjusted 5D4 spec sheet as 'flagship' and a time-adjust 6D2 spec sheet at 'entry-level' and then have the audacity to overcharge the SLR equivalents for the privilege, even Canonites would be angry.

The easiest way to overcome that is to roll out 1-2 awesome and exclusive things that the mirrorless camera does something unassailably better than the SLR or is altogether new for the industry. Something clear, unique, definable, and useful. One or two of these things:


An utterly silent shutter for weddings.
+3 fps over the SLR equivalent since there is no longer a mirror.
Offer a sensor with a defeatable AA filter.
Next-gen DPAF (QPAF I guess?).
Literally strip it down for weight, like 50% of the same-spec'd SLR (go carbon fiber?)
I'm not saying make the entire camera better than the SLR equivalent slot it is filling -- that's not possible in some respects (tracking AF, responsiveness, battery life, etc.). But give the camera something different other than the core mirrorless functionality.

- A


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Jul 5, 2018)

jeffpoker said:


> bergstrom said:
> 
> 
> > If the flagship models doesn't have the same features as the sony a7iii and more , then forget it. People will just stick with the sony.
> ...



That's the case for me. I'll hold out until these cameras are released to decide if I'll hop to the A7III. The Sigma adapter available makes it little easier to transition since I don't use much AF.


----------



## transpo1 (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> WeekendWarrior said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious why they keep using a Leica Q with "EOS" written on it to advertise the new Canon mirrorless camera.. lol we all know its not going to look that good
> ...



Have to agree with this- the Leica looks pretty and it would be lovely to have a retro design but it's just not ergonomic or practical. Canon would never do it, seeing as how one of the tenets of the EOS system was comfort and usability and they prefer their more modern design aesthetic.

Having used a Fuji X-T2 for a couple months now, I am well aware of this trade-off. This is the same reason Fuji recently released the X-H1 with a bigger grip for better ergonomics with heavier lenses.


----------



## dak723 (Jul 5, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> By the time these hit, everyone will own a Sony. But not to worry because it will be spec'ed well below the Sony and priced well above it.



HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!

People who actually care if the camera works as spec'd won't be going over to Sony any time soon. I prefer cameras that actually work as well or better than the specs indicate, which is why I will be taking a close look at Canon's mirrorless offerings.

I've tried Sony FF and I will not be stupid enough to get suckered again.

And, oh, by the way, take your %#&*$% troll comments elsewhere. They aren't welcome here.


----------



## dak723 (Jul 5, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Come on Canon. 30Mpix in a flagship 2019 model isn't satisfactory. We want more pixels and better DR for landscapes.



Who is we? I would prefer nothing over 24MP - which is far more pixels than I have ever needed.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 5, 2018)

KirkD said:


> Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.



5Div architecture is perfectly competitive. If canon built a raw converter to exploit the additional highlight stop burried in the DCRAW subframe, it could best all the 135-format competition. 

Personally, I think it’s a good thing that canon doesn’t “try to compete” with individual specifications.


----------



## Adelino (Jul 5, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> +1.....
> 
> remember when people were saying that digital cameras would never replace film  When they can build a mirrorless camera that costs less to manufacture than a comparable DSLR, you know which way the manufacturers are going to lean....



Most of what I recall people saying was digital is not better thab film YET... but almost everyone I knew expected digital to fully replace film except in special niche applications which is what has happened. Because of the OVF I think there will always be a place for SLRs. I agree it will be cost issue when mirrorless is the most important part of ILC market and SLR will be niche.


----------



## dak723 (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> KirkD said:
> 
> 
> > Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.
> ...



I am not a pro landscape photographer, but do mostly landscapes and I would definitely NOT want the AA filter removed. I have a camera with no AA filter and have taken numerous shots that are essentially ruined by over-exaggerated detail that you get from no AA filter. 

I understand that I may not be a typical CR forum dweller coming from a fine art/painting background. Too much detail, in many cases, is unwanted, something I realize is probably a new thought to tech minded folks. In art as well as photography, the large shapes are central to good composition in most cases. Studies have shown that when people look at things, they often don't see or minimize interior details. So too much detail can be a distraction or look very unnatural. I recall one of the sample photos when the 5Dsr first came out. A beautiful portrait absolutely ruined by showing every tiny hair on the beautiful woman's face. In landscapes, i want to photograph the trees - not every leaf on the trees.

Again, that's another perspective probably not common here. [/list]


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 5, 2018)

KirkD said:


> Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.



Get a 5D MkIV and shoot and process dual pixel RAW images, that gives you the highest DR of any 135 format sensor.

CANON 5D MkIV SENSOR OUT DR ANY SONY SENSOR.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> KirkD said:
> 
> 
> > Disappointed that Canon is not going to try to compete with Sony's high DR sensors. As a landscape photographer who needs HDR, this news is a bit of a blow.
> ...



Any reason why Photons to Photos -- a fairly respectable source -- doesn't report this?

I'm not doubting you, but from what little I've read the DR is in there but I've only seen specialized RAW file analysis tools able to tease out these differences. For instance, could I get use this extra DR in ACR, Lightroom, etc. straight from the original file off the camera, or do I have to wash it through some intermediate step?

(Forgive my ignorance, I don't own a 5D4.)

- A


----------



## Generalized Specialist (Jul 5, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> By the time these hit, everyone will own a Sony. But not to worry because it will be spec'ed well below the Sony and priced well above it.



Haha, you nailed it! First it was Canon has prototypes out in the field being tested for years now, then it was select Canon Explorers of Light were field testing possible production units, then it was a release was going to happen REAL SOON NOW, then the A7iii hit and it was pushed back to being announced at Photokina with a Winter '18/early '19 release date, now it's pushed back yet again to Spring '19. Seems like for every new month this vapourware Canon FF gets pushed back another quarter. 

What a joke. Canon has become one of the laughing stocks of the industry.


----------



## Generalized Specialist (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> They don't give two hoots about Sony right now
> 
> - A



I would disagree wiith you on this point. When you ask enthusiast's/pro's who the leader is in FF mirrorless, they would have to answer Sony. Yes, they are he only ones in that segment so they 'win' by default, but they are the leaders in that market and have a well sorted out camera and lens lineup already in place. Anything and everything Canon releases in this market segment WILL BE compared thoroughly to the Sony's and Canon will be playing catch up.

Plus, with the constant delay's Canon is doing they give Sony more and more time to release even better bodies and glass and then there's the aftermarket to fill in any blanks.

Sad to see Canon going all Kodak here but I've said it before so will say it again - they have no one to blame but themselves.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > KirkD said:
> ...



Photons to Photos doesn't report it because they use RAW files from DxO, and they use the standard 'Master' RAW file which is the sum of both sub pixels. 

At this point you have to "wash it through some intermediate step", but if DR is that important to you (in general not you specifically) then it seems like a fair enough step to get the DR 'needed'. It is certainly the highest performing DR from a 135 format sensor if you know how to use it, ie ETTR and additional processing step.


----------



## jedy (Jul 5, 2018)

Surely a FF mirrorless with EF mount would mean an end to lens/camera calibration (with my existing lenses) due to the differing focus system in mirrorless. Calibration is the number one annoyance I have with DSLR's. The hours I've wasted trying to obtain accurate autofocus with all my lenses!


----------



## HarryFilm (Jul 5, 2018)

"....I say this because I have a lingering suspicion Sony is going to pull a Sony and announce something absurdly spec'd the week (if not the very same day) Canon and Nikon out their FF mirrorless products. Like an A9 II or A7R IV or something with the specs of a fanboy fever dream. ..."

--

You got that right! And boy oh boy is Sony gonna be WHACKING Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Leica, Hasselblad, Phase-One, etc RIGHT ON THEIR HEADS with the biggest bluntest set of new Micro-4/3rds, APS-C, FF and MF+ camera bodies and audio/video/stills formats seen yet! It is literally going to be a slaughter of the technological innocents. They're all toast after this intro!

What a lineup! AND multiple UTTERLY FANTASTIC SETS OF Native Lenses too!


----------



## Talys (Jul 5, 2018)

Generalized Specialist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > They don't give two hoots about Sony right now
> ...



Just because something exists doesn't make it good. Sony is the FF Mirrorless leader, because they make a FF Mirrorless camera, the only one on the market. If you're desperate to how one, that is certainly your best /only bet. But I'd flip it around.i want to do a job, not own a camera or a type if tech. So, how do product shots taken with a FF milc look better than an apsc dslr?how is it faster, cheaper or more efficient. Mostly, a Sony is just more work to get tothe same result.


----------



## unfocused (Jul 5, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> ...boy oh boy is Sony gonna be WHACKING Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Leica, Hasselblad, Phase-One, etc RIGHT ON THEIR HEADS with the biggest bluntest set of new Micro-4/3rds, APS-C, FF and MF+ camera bodies and audio/video/stills formats seen yet! It is literally going to be a slaughter of the technological innocents. They're all toast after this intro!...



About as reliable as this:



HarryFilm said:


> ...BUT...we DO have another software surprise for you which should be happening right around this coming Wednesday....





HarryFilm said:


> ...Anyways there IS A VERY DIFFERENT SURPRISE coming
> your way, so keep watching ON THIS FORUM HERE in
> the next 5 to 7 days to see what's up on that end!
> 
> It's a dooozy of a surprise !!!!!!  ;-)  ;-)



To remind everyone:



unfocused said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



July 5: Still waiting


----------



## sebasan (Jul 5, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



I have submitted dual pixel raws to photonstophotos and they are analyzing the files.
With a dual pixel raw file, you need a software (free by the way) "dprsplit", which separate the dual pixel raw in two dngs, one the original (ETTR + 1 stop) and one 1 stop darker (ETTR). You need to expose 1 stop above ETTR in the field.
Then, in post, after you have the two raws, you processed them the way you proccess for recovery the shadows (luminosity masks, etc).

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123160.0


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

Generalized Specialist said:


> I would disagree wiith you on this point. When you ask enthusiast's/pro's who the leader is in FF mirrorless, they would have to answer Sony. Yes, they are he only ones in that segment so they 'win' by default, but they are the leaders in that market and have a well sorted out camera and lens lineup already in place. Anything and everything Canon releases in this market segment WILL BE compared thoroughly to the Sony's and Canon will be playing catch up.



You're right with the red part above. It will be compared by _we, the arm-chair quarterbacks of the internet_, and by Sony, surely.

But Canon isn't worried about competing in a fledgling market yet. *Their first goal is to get every Canon FF user to buy their FF mirrorless body*, because that is (by far) the easiest sale. Their first goal is to release a working product that their own customers want to own.

I expect the following to occur:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Specs and photos will be leaked/confirmed/announced. The mount decision will be crystal clear at this stage.
[*]The internet will. go. nuts. mocking the price and what it _doesn't_ get you compared to Sony. The _Windows 95 = Macintosh '89_-like burns will be so fierce. : 
[*]If only one mount is announced at launch, some of the folks who don't get the mount they wanted will have kittens over the 'bad' decision and threaten to leave.
[*]The product will be released
[*]It will sell well.
[*]The end.
[/list]

Notice how 'winning' isn't part of this at all. Canon just needs to show up with a reliable product that natively handles EF and it sells. It's like magic.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> At this point you have to "wash it through some intermediate step", but if DR is that important to you (in general not you specifically) then it seems like a fair enough step to get the DR 'needed'. It is certainly the highest performing DR from a 135 format sensor if you know how to use it, ie ETTR and additional processing step.



There's a reason Sigma Foveon sensors didn't take off, right? You had to assemble those files through clunky third party tools, didn't you?

Were I shooting a 5D4 today, DPRAW would be dead to me if I needed to wash it through 3rd party workflow. That's not worth a stop to me. Canon should actively lobby to get that functionality baked into ACR and Lightroom, and pronto.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> You got that right! And boy oh boy is Sony gonna be WHACKING Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Leica, Hasselblad, Phase-One, etc



No one expects the HarryFilm inquisition. It's like's he's just waiting to pounce.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

sebasan said:


> I have submitted dual pixel raws to photonstophotos and they are analyzing the files.
> With a dual pixel raw file, you need a software (free by the way) "dprsplit", which separate the dual pixel raw in two dngs, one the original (ETTR + 1 stop) and one 1 stop darker (ETTR). You need to expose 1 stop above ETTR in the field.
> Then, in post, after you have the two raws, you processed them the way you proccess for recovery the shadows (luminosity masks, etc).
> 
> https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123160.0



Glad you submitted that -- curious to see the output.

But if you have to deliberately ETTR +1 stop, the firmware on Canon bodies doesn't report how much you blew your highlights by, correct? That somewhat implies you have to nail the ETTR (but shooting and chimping the histo) and _then_ goose Exp. Comp a stop, which would appear to be only well suited for scripted, composed work you can take your time with (studio, landscape, product, etc.) 

Cool? Yes. 

Useful? Not until the firmware can be tweaked to show you your +1 stop overexposure on the histo and the files can be dropped right into industry standard software.

Intrigued, but this scream MagicLantern way more than a stock daily driver of a camera + subsequent workflow.

- A


----------



## sebasan (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > At this point you have to "wash it through some intermediate step", but if DR is that important to you (in general not you specifically) then it seems like a fair enough step to get the DR 'needed'. It is certainly the highest performing DR from a 135 format sensor if you know how to use it, ie ETTR and additional processing step.
> ...



Yes, i am very interested in the conclusions by photonstophotos.

I know maybe it is more work in the field, but when you worked a lot of pictures, you are confident what you can achieve. In the case of post, do you know how to get the max dynamic range from a file in post? Please, check greg benz (lumenzia creator) or Jimmy McIntyre (raya pro creator) flows. They both used D810 and now D850 (the ones with max dynamic range). If you want to get the maximum from your files, you need to do some workflow. It is not only to move the shadow slider to the right the right way to extract the information from the file.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

sebasan said:


> Do you know how to get the max dynamic range from a file in post? Please, check greg benz (lumenzia creator) or Jimmy McIntyre (raya pro creator) flows. They both used D810 and now D850 (the ones with max dynamic range). If you want to get the maximum from your files, you need to do some workflow.



Or you could leave a stop on the table and just work with sliders in ACR, luminosity masks in PS, etc. I think it all depends on your patience and willingness to 'work the dough'.

I'm not a pro. I'll stick to the simple path. Full respect to those who want it more, though. 

- A


----------



## sebasan (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> sebasan said:
> 
> 
> > Do you know how to get the max dynamic range from a file in post? Please, check greg benz (lumenzia creator) or Jimmy McIntyre (raya pro creator) flows. They both used D810 and now D850 (the ones with max dynamic range). If you want to get the maximum from your files, you need to do some workflow.
> ...



Sorry, i have changed my answer because when i was writing you were answer me too. Maybe I sound rude, that was not my intention. Please read my edited answer ;D
Of course that we all want the easiest way to get the results, but we have to be careful, because anybody could get a descent picture if the camera do all the work.


----------



## BillB (Jul 5, 2018)

privatebydesign said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



And all this would seem to be a pretty good benchmark of the practical importance of maxing the DR of modern equipment, as opposed to bickering about magic DPR/DXO magic DR numbers voodoo. Well, if it is going to be any work, I don't want to bother with it....


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 5, 2018)

BillB said:


> And all this would seem to be a pretty good benchmark of the practical importance of maxing the DR of modern equipment, as opposed to bickering about magic DPR/DXO magic DR numbers voodoo. Well, if it is going to be any work, I don't want to bother with it....



Slightly disagree in that the bickering matters here as PBD is claiming the 5D4 delivers the most DR. This could very well turn out to be true but require a time investment, capture workflow changes, post-processing workflow changes, etc. to achieve that performance.

But I agree that Sony sensors don't make you jump through those hoops. Point: Sony sensors. Again, if I'm just shooting landscape work on a tripod, I'd already own an A7R2 or A7R3. 42 MP + No AA + one extra stop base ISO DR natively available / easily 'gettable' in existing RAW processing tools is a winning combination for that application, IMHO.

Don't get me wrong, I think some clever people (like with ML playing around with Dual ISO on the 5D3) back-doored a clever use of the file format DPRAW creates to do something Canon didn't plan. Cool. But it'd be a hell of a lot nicer if I could just capture files and use them. Sony appears to be doing that. Again, I prefer Canon for a mountain of reasons, but if I just shot landscapes, Sony would appear to have the better 'film' right now.

- A


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 5, 2018)

sebasan said:


> do you know how to get the max dynamic range from a file in post? Please, check greg benz (lumenzia creator) or Jimmy McIntyre (raya pro creator) flows. They both used D810 and now D850 (the ones with max dynamic range)..



It’s not really about getting the maximum from a file, it’s about mapping what tones you recorded and wish to display to whatever your final medium is.


----------



## BillB (Jul 5, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > And all this would seem to be a pretty good benchmark of the practical importance of maxing the DR of modern equipment, as opposed to bickering about magic DPR/DXO magic DR numbers voodoo. Well, if it is going to be any work, I don't want to bother with it....
> ...



True enough, but I am wondering whether we have reached a point where there is very little practical significance in any differences that may exist. Do the DR magic numbers have any importance in the real world.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Jul 6, 2018)

Call me crazy but couldnt a mirrorless canon by default have an eletronic lens adapter be the norm. basically have a removable adapter for the mirrorless lens but for EF lens, you take this small adapter out and it allows the legacy EF lens to sit inside or go deeper into the camera a bit to make up for the shorter local flange distance??? Couldnt this work and be the solution. Of course they have to work out the electronics, ease of removal, and make sure the "default adapter" is sturdy for professional use. Am I the only person here that has thought of this???


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2018)

RayValdez360 said:


> Call me crazy but couldnt a mirrorless canon by default have an eletronic lens adapter be the norm. basically have a removable adapter for the mirrorless lens but for EF lens, you take this small adapter out and it allows the legacy EF lens to sit inside or go deeper into the camera a bit to make up for the shorter local flange distance??? Couldnt this work and be the solution. Of course they have to work out the electronics, ease of removal, and make sure the "default adapter" is sturdy for professional use. Am I the only person here that has thought of this???



Something like it has been discussed. Build a full EF mount body but have two lines of lenses: EF and 'EF-X' (only works on mirrorless) that has a good percentage of it's overall length filling the space where the mirror used to be. The lenses are just as long but 20-25mm of that length gets trapped inside of the body.

You don't need an adaptor (at all) and you get an EF-X + body lens size savings as you are sneaking lens length into the body.

In my mind, *any idea involves new lenses and clever tricks with adaptors has to deliver a smaller package as a reward for doing so* or the 'keep it small' camp will get turned off. To them, if the concept doesn't allow for a smaller overall construct, why are you making a second line of lenses? Why add the adaptor and the confusion?

(Chart below to make the point: the left side is all about seamlessness and what mirrorless tech can do for folks already comfortably living with a pile of EF lenses an FF SLR bodies. The right side is overwhelmingly about size -- even if you can't save that much space with bigger/faster lenses.)

- A


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> WeekendWarrior said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious why they keep using a Leica Q with "EOS" written on it to advertise the new Canon mirrorless camera.. lol we all know its not going to look that good
> ...



I was thinking the same thing: "Please, please, please don't let that shape be Canon's future direction. Ugly and painful looking." It's amazing what Leica can get away with.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jul 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > At this point you have to "wash it through some intermediate step", but if DR is that important to you (in general not you specifically) then it seems like a fair enough step to get the DR 'needed'. It is certainly the highest performing DR from a 135 format sensor if you know how to use it, ie ETTR and additional processing step.
> ...



What it's worth to you wasn't the point. I was answering the comment that Canon still lag well behind Sony in DR, they do not. Even if you just use the simple RAW file from the 5D MkIV there is less than 0.8 stop of difference between the best from Canon, Sony and Nikon. There was a time when the DR comments did have a point, that time has long passed. Further, if ultimate DR from one shot is your primary objective in the 135 format sensor department, the 5D MkIV is king.



sebasan said:


> Yes, i am very interested in the conclusions by photonstophotos.
> 
> I know maybe it is more work in the field, but when you worked a lot of pictures, you are confident what you can achieve. In the case of post, do you know how to get the max dynamic range from a file in post? Please, check greg benz (lumenzia creator) or Jimmy McIntyre (raya pro creator) flows. They both used D810 and now D850 (the ones with max dynamic range). If you want to get the maximum from your files, you need to do some workflow. It is not only to move the shadow slider to the right the right way to extract the information from the file.



And both use blending multiple exposure techniques to get the images they want, ergo the less than one stop difference isn't good enough to make the difference to one shot for these guys. I have Raya Pro and have had for years, indeed it is the only blending program I now use other than LR 32 bit blending for simple brackets.



BillB said:


> And all this would seem to be a pretty good benchmark of the practical importance of maxing the DR of modern equipment, as opposed to bickering about magic DPR/DXO magic DR numbers voodoo. Well, if it is going to be any work, I don't want to bother with it....



As above, nobody cares if you personally are interested in it or not, or if you can be bothered to do the work needed to realize it, the point was if you want the maximum DR from a 135 format sensor then the answer is the 5D MkIV. And that flies in the face of the original comment I was replying to that said Canon have to deliver more DR than Sony in a next generation sensor, they already do in this generation. 

P.S. Have you seen how Sony have not only plateaued in DR development but have actually done a Nikon and reduced the DR in their latest offerings?


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 6, 2018)

I guessed tilting sensor only as a side effect, not the goal. A new mount with protruding lenses is no better because the body will still be thick. It doesn't matter whether the sensor moves or the lens protrudes, you still need certain room for the old EF mount + sensor configuration.
Protruding lenses would be quite awkward in many regards, for example, you won't be able to mount them on other mirrorless cameras, you will have greater chances to damage the guts of the camera when mounting. The mount will be hugely incompatible with the rest of the world. At the same time, Tamton and Sigma will now struggle much more, maybe it's a plus for Canon (not for us).



ahsanford said:


> That will mean it is as thick/deep as an EF SLR, which will equal no size savings at all. Why do that just for a cool tilt effect?
> 
> If you want cake and eating it too (native EF + magical size savings), surely going full EF with 'EF-X' lenses protruding into the body would be the way to go. This would be a lot easier to pull off than a moving sensor plane, and these lenses (at least the portion sticking out from the EF mount) would be smaller.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 6, 2018)

unfocused said:


> HarryFilm said:
> 
> 
> > ...boy oh boy is Sony gonna be WHACKING Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Leica, Hasselblad, Phase-One, etc RIGHT ON THEIR HEADS with the biggest bluntest set of new Micro-4/3rds, APS-C, FF and MF+ camera bodies and audio/video/stills formats seen yet! It is literally going to be a slaughter of the technological innocents. They're all toast after this intro!...
> ...



Be gentle. He's on a work break.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 6, 2018)

I tried this new soft that adds 1 stop of DR. Shot several landscpae sessions. It's useful somewhat, but in some merged HDR+DPRAW shots, when I tried to recover the deliberately overexposed highlights, they got a strong green cast I couldn't get rid of. I used in-camera histogram for exposure, maybe I over-over exposed the shots. But in general this method takes a lot of guessing and is, in general, unreliable.


----------



## Woody (Jul 6, 2018)

From http://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/who-leads-who-follows-who.html:

"Canon — Initially a follower in film SLR, eventually a leader in autofocus SLR; then a follower in DSLR that again flipped to leader; then a follower in mirrorless which may be flipping to leader. Sense a pattern there? *Canon isn't generally the first mover, but when they move they move. I think that anyone who underestimates the EOS M and whatever full frame mirrorless Canon decides to produce needs to rethink their position.* I'd call Canon opportunistic and well managed. I wouldn't call them the innovator that's going to trigger the next changeover in camera designs by leading the way, but they are quick to understand when that changeover is occurring. *Follower that becomes a Winner*."


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 6, 2018)

Woody said:


> From http://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/who-leads-who-follows-who.html:
> 
> "Canon — Initially a follower in film SLR, eventually a leader in autofocus SLR; then a follower in DSLR that again flipped to leader; then a follower in mirrorless which may be flipping to leader. Sense a pattern there? *Canon isn't generally the first mover, but when they move they move. I think that anyone who underestimates the EOS M and whatever full frame mirrorless Canon decides to produce needs to rethink their position.* I'd call Canon opportunistic and well managed. I wouldn't call them the innovator that's going to trigger the next changeover in camera designs by leading the way, but they are quick to understand when that changeover is occurring. *Follower that becomes a Winner*."



Yeah, but the obvious flaw in their logic is that Canon is 0.8-stops of DR behind.


----------



## takesome1 (Jul 6, 2018)

Generalized Specialist said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > They don't give two hoots about Sony right now
> ...



It is a sad life to be nothing but a Sony troll.


----------



## justawriter (Jul 6, 2018)

Hey, all you switching to Sony guys, be sure to use CRguy's affiliate links so he can afford to maintain a forum where you can talk about how great your cameras are, if you ever do decide to pull the trigger rather than waiting for the new version that's only a few months off that you are sure is going to fix the problems with the current version.


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## USsp40uk (Jul 6, 2018)

I think that 5DM4 like DSLM will be a new 30.4mp sensor, the Digic 8 processor, at least 12 FPS, AF points 99 to 199 or 249 all cross points, with Canon Log included full frame, 4K useable codec, and IBIS. It will be a great camera. Price between 1900-2500 US$. Is that the only Full Frame that release in Mirrorless?
I also think that if bring out 7DMII/III DSLM will be have a 24.1mp sensor, Digic 8 processor, 12 FPS, AF points 99-199 all cross points, with Canon Log included, no extra crop 4K useable codec, and IBIS. I will be a great camera. Price between 1400- 1900 US$.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 6, 2018)

I wouldn't also mind a small attachable sachet for a bottle of water, foldable mini-tripod retracting to the bottom of the camera and a Swiss Army knife next to the battery compartment. Or I just don't know how else Canon is going to compete with Sony. They don't want to improve on sensors, so must innovate in other areas such as multi-functionality.



USsp40uk said:


> I think that 5DM4 like DSLM will be a new 30.4mp sensor, the Digic 8 processor, at least 12 FPS, AF points 99 to 199 or 249 all cross points, with Canon Log included and full frame 4K useable codec. It will be a great camera. Price between 1900-2500 US$. Is that the only Full Frame that release in Mirrorless?
> I also think that if bring out 7DMII/III DSLM will be have a 24.1mp sensor, Digic 8 processor, 12 FPS, AF points 99-199 all cross points, with Canon Log included and no extra crop 4K useable codec. I will be a great camera. Price between 1400- 1900 US$.


----------



## slclick (Jul 6, 2018)

No one really wants another mount but 'know it alls' want to act like there will be another mount and want to stick it to Canon users by making the EF glass obsolete (in their minds) 

You want a handful of folks to buy the new camera? Make a new mount
You want a gajillion folks to buy it? Keep it EF

Simple.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 6, 2018)

When has it been that a Canon product rumored to be coming in a year's time actually came in a year's time? The best interpretation of this is that they'll make Christmas 2019. Another interpretation is that Canon recognized that it got skunked by Sony with this set of releases and needs to go back to the drawing board for the third time now to come up with something non-embarrassing; which would match up with rumors we heard of field testing being done by some selected pros in early spring.

Something's not quite right. Soon it'll be two years since Canon released the M5, and two years since we've been told Canon is taking full frame mirrorless "seriously." Who would think that upscaling the M5 to full frame will take 3 years? Something has to have been canned.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jul 6, 2018)

Canon has changed the mount once many years ago, moreover, the relatively recent EFM mount is only compatible with EFS through an adapter, I don't see any reason why wouldn't they do the same for the prospective EFX mount. EFX plus a 'sexy' EF adapter for, say, $500. Full stop end of story.



slclick said:


> No one really wants another mount but 'know it alls' want to act like there will be another mount and want to stick it to Canon users by making the EF glass obsolete (in their minds)
> 
> You want a handful of folks to buy the new camera? Make a new mount
> You want a gajillion folks to buy it? Keep it EF
> ...


----------



## slclick (Jul 6, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Canon has changed the mount once many years ago, moreover, the relatively recent EFM mount is only compatible with EFS through an adapter, I don't see any reason why wouldn't they do the same for the prospective EFX mount. EFX plus a 'sexy' EF adapter for, say, $500. Full stop end of story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll tell you why, because EF-S is small potatoes and if it's anywhere near a Prosumer or better, the potential buyers will be current owners of actual high quality glass (EF, not EF-S) and you will alienate millions of shooters by creating a new mount.


----------



## Generalized Specialist (Jul 6, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> When has it been that a Canon product rumored to be coming in a year's time actually came in a year's time? The best interpretation of this is that they'll make Christmas 2019. Another interpretation is that Canon recognized that it got skunked by Sony with this set of releases and needs to go back to the drawing board for the third time now to come up with something non-embarrassing; which would match up with rumors we heard of field testing being done by some selected pros in early spring.
> 
> Something's not quite right. Soon it'll be two years since Canon released the M5, and two years since we've been told Canon is taking full frame mirrorless "seriously." Who would think that upscaling the M5 to full frame will take 3 years? Something has to have been canned.



Exactly! My guess is Canon was either going to shock and awe all of us with yet another tepid parts bin half-a$$ed release that they charge a premium for but then the A7iii happened, or they've hit some major engineering hurdles. Or both. Seems like a market Canon wants to ignore while allowing Sony to make some serious money and some seriously good cameras\lenses and gaining converts/marketshare. Canon's non-participation is leaving money on the table so that alone would suggest problems in-house.


----------



## Generalized Specialist (Jul 6, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> It is a sad life to be nothing but a Sony troll.



By Sony troll you mean yet another one of those Canon guys (10 years in my case) that switched to Sony. You know, the ones you guys all claim don't exist because no Canon user has switched yet, all of 'em are still drinking the Canon kool-aid and all is well in Canon land - nothing but kitty cats, lollipops and rainbows. 

Gonna be sitting here next winter season with a big grin on my face when the year end marketshare results get reported and Canon has delayed it's FF mirrorless for the umpteenth time, and reading all the excuses you guys have trying to explain away how Canon dropped the ball.

Meanwhile Canon has everything on firesale and the Sony A7iii is going for upwards of 40% over MSRP to folks who can't wait a few weeks. And next will come the A7Siii (you know that one, the one Canon isn't even going to bother competing with, for 'reasons') and the A6x00 model and who knows what else Sony has in store for us.


----------



## Etienne (Jul 6, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Canon has changed the mount once many years ago, moreover, the relatively recent EFM mount is only compatible with EFS through an adapter, I don't see any reason why wouldn't they do the same for the prospective EFX mount. EFX plus a 'sexy' EF adapter for, say, $500. Full stop end of story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly. Canon went all in and abandoned the old mount when it produced the EF mount because they were looking at the long haul game, and the old mount would have held them back. Mirrorless is the long haul game today. There are still areas in which the SLR outperforms mirrorless, but the gap is rapidly narrowing and in 5 or 10 years time the advances is EVF tech and mirrorless design will make the SLR much less appealing even to die-hard mirror lovers. 
Canon will probably keep producing good DSLR bodies for another 10 years or more, but when it comes to mirrorless there's no end in sight. So they will not limit themselves by delaying the introduction of a new mount designed to get the most of the mirrorless bodies. The transition will include a very good "adapter" solution, but a new mount is inevitable. Sony went with a new FE mount to optimize for mirrorless as well. It's the long view that will win.
It's a win-win for Canon, they absolutely will sell a lot of new lenses with a new mirrorless mount. Legacy EF lens users will stick with DSLRs, use the adapter, or sell their old lenses and buy new ones. Either way Canon wins.


----------



## Generalized Specialist (Jul 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> The product will be released
> It will sell well.
> The end.



The only problem with your theory here is teenage girls buy M50's, they don't buy FF mirrorless. Canon is selling Rebels and low end mirrorless to people shooting in green box mode trying to use the pop up flash to shoot through windows at the zoo.

Yes, there are a LOT of those types of buyers. No, those customers are not the enthusiasts or pro's asking Canon for a FF mirrorless.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 6, 2018)

justawriter said:


> Hey, all you switching to Sony guys, be sure to use CRguy's affiliate links so he can afford to maintain a forum where you can talk about how great your cameras are, if you ever do decide to pull the trigger rather than waiting for the new version that's only a few months off that you are sure is going to fix the problems with the current version.



I’m not a switcher. I see little point in getting rid of old gear. I tried Sony (A7Rii) for a couple years, but kept my canon stuff and eventually decided the Sony wasn’t for me.

However, “the new version that’s only a few months off” is a nice “problem” to have. Long/contrived product cycles leave me thinking that when I want or need a new camera, unless it happens to coincide with a product release, I’m not getting the best the company is able to market at any given price point.


----------



## sanj (Jul 6, 2018)

Generalized Specialist said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > It is a sad life to be nothing but a Sony troll.
> ...



I personally know 9 people who switched from Canon to Sony. 1 switched back to Canon. Rest 8 are very happy with Sony. All are professionals - working professionals. Fashion/Product photographers.


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## Woody (Jul 6, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Yeah, but the obvious flaw in their logic is that Canon is 0.8-stops of DR behind.



That hasn't stopped Canon from grabbing 50% of ILC market shares. ;D

From http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/downsizers.html:

"Yes, yes, I know that some of you are screaming at your computer/tablet/phone as you read this: "but Thom, the Canon sensors suck." No, they don't. They may not quite currently hit the levels that the Nikon/Sony sensors are reaching in terms of dynamic range, but note the words "good enough" and how many times they appear in this article, in other articles and reviews, and in customer discussions. 

Good Enough usually wins in the marketplace. There's usually a solid niche available for Better Than Others. But Good Enough is where the volume will be."


----------



## Uneternal (Jul 6, 2018)

Woody said:


> "Yes, yes, I know that some of you are screaming at your computer/tablet/phone as you read this: "but Thom, the Canon sensors suck." No, they don't. They may not quite currently hit the levels that the Nikon/Sony sensors are reaching in terms of dynamic range, but note the words "good enough" and how many times they appear in this article, in other articles and reviews, and in customer discussions.
> 
> Good Enough usually wins in the marketplace. There's usually a solid niche available for Better Than Others. But Good Enough is where the volume will be."



Its less about the good enough sensors and more about the prices. And Canon still has one of the cheapest lens ranges, especially for amateurs. In Sony land you pay almost double for every comparable spec'd lens.
And most people rather save 1000 bucks on lenses and take a pass on 2 stops of more DR.


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 6, 2018)

Woody said:


> Good Enough usually wins in the marketplace. There's usually a solid niche available for Better Than Others. But Good Enough is where the volume will be."



This may well be the case for the APS-C and low-end market (even, dare I say, the 6D II market), but for the semi-pro to professional market there is a much greater awareness of the capabilities of competing equipment.

Right now if you want a FF MILC you can get a Sony. If you want a FF MILC that uses EF glass, you get a Sony and throw a Metabones or Sigma adaptor on it. Yes, those aren't as fast at autofocus as native lenses, but they are improving rapidly.

With the forthcoming Nikon FF MILC you'll likely have an adaptor sooner or later to take Canon EF glass on it (ironically it's probably easier to adapt EF lenses to the new Nikon than to adapt Nikon F mount lenses because of the mechanical legacy they have.)

And you'll have a new Canon MILC with an adaptor to take EF lenses too. There's no physical reason why EF glass adapted on the Canon shouldn't focus any more reliably and faster than on the other systems. It all depends to how well the protocol is understood by those developing adaptors (and I'm pretty certain it's very well understood by now), and the underlying focus capabilities within the cameras. Right now Canon have the edge with DPAF, but we all know this is a constant battle with the rivals doing their best to outdo each other.

But also, this leaves Canon somewhat at risk. If it becomes too easy for a Canon shooter to switch out their Canon body for a Sony body or a Nikon body and keep their lens investment, then they'll likely start buying non-Canon lenses too. And before you know it, the customer has gone. This is already happening with Sony. 

Thats why, if we look at this in terms of marketing alone and not technology, it's essential that Canon builds a system that can use EF lenses, but with a new mount that would allow new lenses to be built that do tie people into the Canon system for the future!


----------



## Kit. (Jul 6, 2018)

Etienne said:


> Exactly. Canon went all in and abandoned the old mount when it produced the EF mount because they were looking at the long haul game, and the old mount would have held them back. Mirrorless is the long haul game today. There are still areas in which the SLR outperforms mirrorless, but the gap is rapidly narrowing and in 5 or 10 years time the advances is EVF tech and mirrorless design will make the SLR much less appealing even to die-hard mirror lovers.


Indeed. Canon has 3 to 8 more years to finalize a new mount design that will better suit the future needs of the future MILCs (maybe even with non-rectangular sensors).

No need to hurry.


----------



## Ian_of_glos (Jul 6, 2018)

sanj said:


> Generalized Specialist said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...



Sadly I feel I must agree with this observation. Even some of the most highly respected and dedicated Canon photographers have started taking an interest in Sony since the A7 iii was announced. 
I have 2 Canon full frame DSLRs, 4 Canon speedlites and over 12 Canon lenses so I am not what you might call a Sony troll. 
For the past few months I have been saving up for the Canon 400mm F2.8L. It is a very expensive lens, but I thought about it carefully and decided that am willing to pay that price for the best quality. Then the Sony 400mm F2.8 was announced. It is 1Kg lighter than the Canon and if recent reviews are to be believed then the focussing is precise and accurate so despite its price it looks very tempting.
Personally I don't care whether the camera I use is a DSLR or it uses mirrorless technology. All that is important to me is the results I can achieve and at the moment it is the choice of high quality lenses that is keeping me loyal to Canon. However, with Sony announcing more and more lens choices that gap is narrowing and the new 400mm F2.8 might be the lens that finally persuades me to change brand.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 6, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> But also, this leaves Canon somewhat at risk. If it becomes too easy for a Canon shooter to switch out their Canon body for a Sony body or a Nikon body and keep their lens investment, then they'll likely start buying non-Canon lenses too. And before you know it, the customer has gone. This is already happening with Sony.



Sure, and that is probably significant...to people who believe anecdotes = data. Sadly, there seem to be quite a few of such people on this forum. Perhaps merely unfortunate victims of educational systems that do not emphasize STEM. 

Meanwhile, the data show Canon maintaining ~50% market share and Sony not gaining any, and internally-generated forecasts from both Canon and Sony suggest that's not going to change in the near future.


----------



## Generalized Specialist (Jul 6, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Meanwhile, the data show Canon maintaining ~50% market share and Sony not gaining any, and internally-generated forecasts from both Canon and Sony suggest that's not going to change in the near future.



True, but also the reality of that statement is the vast majority of those Canon sales are Rebels and other lower end gear. You know, the folks who almost never buy another lens or other accessory and the camera more than likely stays at home in the closet for months and months at a time. That's your reason Canon has only released a small handful of lenses in the last 6 years for EF-M mount. What came first - the chicken or the egg? In this case it's what came first, a good Canon EF-M body or the lenses to go with it? By concentrating on a budget buyer who rarely buys better glass, why offer better glass in the first place?

With Sony the sales are in the more enthusiast/pro end and that means more glass, etc... 

Google back to the beginning of the year and look up Canon's and Sony's profit statements, I don't think you'll see that Canon is 5x what Sony's camera division is, actually, I think you'll be a bit surprised at the numbers. Yet Canon still wants to ignore this market. They done gone full Kodak. It's comical to see the pace Sony is moving compared to Canon. Forget the bodies for a moment, look at all the glass Sony has come out with in the last few years.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 6, 2018)

Generalized Specialist said:


> Google back to the beginning of the year and look up Canon's and Sony's profit statements, I don't think you'll see that Canon is 5x what Sony's camera division is, actually, I think you'll be a bit surprised at the numbers.



No, nothing surprising there. 




Generalized Specialist said:


> Forget the bodies for a moment, look at all the glass Sony has come out with in the last few years.



From 2014 to 2018, Sony has released 22 lenses for their ILCs. 
From 2014 to 2018, Canon has released 26 lenses for their ILCs. 

Both lists include prosaic lenses like the 50/1.8 and 18-xx variable aperture kit zooms, generalist higher-end lenses like 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 and f/4 zooms, and niche lenses like 11/12-24mm UWA zooms and Canon's TS-E Macro lenses. Canon had to round out their EF-M line, and Sony had to add many standard 'pro-grade' lenses that were missing from their lineup, while Canon updated those lenses. 

But wait...you had a point, right? Something about all the lenses Sony has released recently, which you probably thought was more than Canon, wasn't it? Oh well, better luck next time.


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 6, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> But wait...you had a point, right? Something about all the lenses Sony has released recently, which you probably thought was more than Canon, wasn't it? Oh well, better luck next time.



Now, I'm not trying to argue against you here, but I want to simply provide more information:

The 25 new lenses that Canon have launched since 2014 include:

4 EF-M lenses 
5 EF-S lenses 
16 EF Lenses

Out of these, All the EF-M lenses were new.

On the EF-S lenses, the 10-18, 24mm pancake and 35mm macro are brand new, the 18-135 is an update to an existing lens and the 18-55 f/4-5.6 is a smaller - and slower - version of the standard kit lens.

With the EF lenses we ave some good solid new designs and the 50mm 1.8, the 24-105 f/4 II. the 70-300 IS II, and I would argue both the new 70-200 versions as being relatively minor incremental upgrades. The 16-35 III was a major upgrade on the II, as was the 100-400 II over the I. But this is where I'm getting subjective rather than scientific.

Sony appear to have released 27 lenses for the FE and E mounts within the same time: (or 25 and two teleconverters if you count those separately). Oh, and if we're counting EF, EF-S and EF-M together we probably should also count the three A mount lenses that Sony released in 2015, giving us a total of 30.

FE 400mm F2.8 GM OSS
E 18-135 F3.5-5.6 OSS
FE 24-105 F4 G OSS
FE 100-400 F4.5-5.6 GM OSS
FE 85mm F1.8 
FE 100mm F2.8STF GM OSS
FE 12-24mm F4 G
FE 16-35mm F2.8 GM
FE 50mm f2.8 Macro
E PZ 18-110 F4 G OSS
FE 50mm F1.8
FE 24-70 F2.8 GM
FE 70-200 F2.8 GM
Teleconverter 1.4x
Teleconverter 2x
FE 50mm F1.4 ZA
FE 85mm F1.4 GM
FE 70-300 F4.5-5.6 G OSS
FE 28mm F2
FE 35mm F1.4 ZA
FE 90mm F.2.8 Macro G OSS
FE 24-240 F3.5-6.3 OSS
FE PZ 28-135 F4 G OSS
FE 16-35 F4 ZA OSS
E 18-50 F4-5.6
FE 24-70 F4 ZA OSS (announced 2013, launched 2014)
FE 70-200 F4 G OSS (announced 2013, launched 2014)

I won't bother listing the A lenses because no-one cares about A lenses.


So, whoever said " look at all the glass Sony has come out with in the last few years. " has a point, not in comparing numerically with Canon, because they're almost level, but comparing the range of lenses that Sony have released, and what they have managed, in such a short time, to bring to their mounts.

Of course, in the first four years of EF (1987-1990) there were 34 lens releases!


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 6, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> So, whoever said " look at all the glass Sony has come out with in the last few years. " has a point, not in comparing numerically with Canon, because they're almost level, but comparing the range of lenses that Sony have released, and what they have managed, in such a short time, to bring to their mounts.
> 
> Of course, in the first four years of EF (1987-1990) there were 34 lens releases!



I was trying _not_ to say explicitly that Sony had a lot of catching up to do in terms of lenses...but that's the reality. Meanwhile, Canon improved some lenses, but in essence their lineup is really solid and has been for some time, whereas Sony was (and still to some extent is) lacking. Meanwhile, Canon has had the freedom/luxury to add things like TS-Macro lenses and wide-angle macro lenses, and to update already-excellent lenses.


----------



## infared (Jul 6, 2018)

Woody said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, but the obvious flaw in their logic is that Canon is 0.8-stops of DR behind.
> ...



Why not make them better?


----------



## dak723 (Jul 6, 2018)

Generalized Specialist said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Meanwhile, the data show Canon maintaining ~50% market share and Sony not gaining any, and internally-generated forecasts from both Canon and Sony suggest that's not going to change in the near future.
> ...



You've answered your own questions, but apparently can't grasp the answer.

You can't compare the lens selection for an APS-C camera with that of a FF camera because they have a different target market. The Canon M lenses cover all the bases and fit the target market who are looking for good quality, but affordable lenses that cover the entire focal range. The target market want generalized lenses rather than specialty lenses. For FF, you have a different market that is willing to spend far more money on a lens and is looking for specialty lenses. 

You indicate that Canon want to ignore the Pro/Enthusiast market - although it is hard to believe that you haven't noticed that Canon makes numerous FF DSLRs and continues to produce many EF lenses. For what market do you think those cameras and lenses are for?

And every time you mention Kodak you only show your ignorance and the fact that you can't help repeating the usual troll responses. Kodak was the first to get into digital cameras and was the top selling digital camera maker in the US as late as 2005. Although Kodak did make some of the earliest digital SLRs, the vast majority of their cameras were point and shoots. Their digital camera sales began to fall off rapidly when Canon, Nikon and other camera companies began getting serious about digital - and had the benefit of also making lenses. So being first - and being very successful at first - is no guarantee for success in the long run. So all those that are saying Canon is too late in entering the mirrorless FF game may be right, but really have no basis for their opinion. Who succeeds in the long run has little to do with who was first.

You say that Canon has delayed its mirrorless FF for the umpteenth time. That's an odd statement to make as the initial rumors - as well as most every one since - has said Canon will announce their FF mirrorless in late 2018 and start selling them in 2019. Seems to be right on target.

Oh, I forgot, you have to make up stuff to bash Canon.


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## Kit. (Jul 6, 2018)

infared said:


> Why not make them better?


Trade-offs.

Trying to make them better for one market niche can make them worse for other market niches.

First of all, every change involves resources that could otherwise be spent differently (sometimes better).


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## BXL (Jul 6, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> By the time these hit, everyone will own a Sony. But not to worry because it will be spec'ed well below the Sony and priced well above it.


Why should everyone own a Sony? I used the A7 a couple of times and even though it's a nice camera I prefer the 5D IV/5DsR and the canon ecosystem or the Fuji X-Series. Sony might be good but they're not the best. If the size of sensor is important, why fill frame if you can get medium frame like the Fuji GXF or the Hasselblad X1S?


----------



## sdz (Jul 6, 2018)

slclick said:


> No one really wants another mount but 'know it alls' want to act like there will be another mount and want to stick it to Canon users by making the EF glass obsolete (in their minds)
> 
> You want a handful of folks to buy the new camera? Make a new mount
> You want a gajillion folks to buy it? Keep it EF
> ...



This. Canon sells lens for its mirrorless cameras, but also for its different kinds of Canon DSLRs. It just so happens that the owners of those EF lens provide an enormous pre-existing market for a mirrorless camera with an EF mount. That fact alone significantly lowers the cost of entry into the mirrorless camera market for EF lens owners. They do not need to buy new lenses. They do not need to sell their old lenses and even their DSLRs. This fact also creates a compelling economic incentive for Canon to use the EF mount on its FF mirrorless camera. An EF mount on a new Canon mirrorless FF camera would accelerate the move by Canon owners into the mirrorless camera market. Why, then, would a rational firm, one that seeks profit, destroy a large market in which it has a monopoly position? Canon seems rational. But, I might be wrong.

Naturally, if Crapple were to buy Canon, as a rumor suggested, then I would expect Apple/Canon to discover ways to render legacy Canon gear obsolete while also falling behind Sony, Nikon, Fuji, etc. in most areas save price. A new mount for a mirrorless FF camera would provide one place to begin that wrecking operation.


----------



## BXL (Jul 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> There's a large chunk of the prospective mirrorless buying folks out there who routinely say "Mirrorless is all about being small", aka 'If you just pull the mirror out of an SLR in the same footprint, why even make it?' These folks' opinions on the matter don't seem to change -- they find a smaller body + lens combo to be attractive."


A 24-70mm f1:2.8 lense is never small. Just look at Sonys SEL-2470GM G Master. If someone wants smaller lenses, than the m43 system is the only option left.


----------



## bhf3737 (Jul 6, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> But also, this leaves Canon somewhat at risk. If it becomes too easy for a Canon shooter to switch out their Canon body for a Sony body or a Nikon body and keep their lens investment, then they'll likely start buying non-Canon lenses too. And before you know it, the customer has gone. This is already happening with Sony.



Just being curious: Besides being slow to focus, do the X brand cameras with adapted Canon EF lenses can do in-camera corrections for distortion, vignetting, softness, color shift, etc.? Do they respond/sync well in flash photography? 
There are many image quality related features that depend on the combination of lens and camera and I guess we cannot replace one with something else and expect to get the exact same results. IMHO, the whole story of adapting lenses is a gimmick and may be good enough for experimentation and fun by YouTubers but definitely not appropriate for pro quality photos and pro photographers.


----------



## BXL (Jul 6, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> When they can build a mirrorless camera that costs less to manufacture than a comparable DSLR, you know which way the manufacturers are going to lean....


The problem is not the price of the body but the lens ecosystem. Sony has nice sensors and bodys but the lenses are really expensive and that's Sony's problem. I wouldn't switch from Canon to Sony do to the lenses and that's why I wait and see what Canon has to offer in the future. If Canon introduces a new mount and I have to invest into new lenses, I might switch to Sony, Fuji or Nikon. If Canon offers a proper solution for my "old" EF-Lenses, I might stay with Canon. If Canon offers a competitive DSLR - and the 5D IV and the 5DsR are competitive DSLRs - I definitely stay with Canon.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 6, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> +1.....
> 
> remember when people were saying that digital cameras would never replace film  When they can build a mirrorless camera that costs less to manufacture than a comparable DSLR, you know which way the manufacturers are going to lean....



With the greatest of respect, people make all sorts of predictions, and most are wrong. That prediction X was wrong does not mean prediction Y will be. I don't reject the proposition that mirrorless may replace mirrored, but I've heard it for years and not much has changed, it may well be a totally different technology becomes mainstream, and mirrorless cameras as we think of them now are never more than a passing thing - although obviously anything without a mirror could be given that label.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2018)

sdz said:


> Why would a rational firm destroy a market in which it has a monopoly position?



To open: I'd love EF, too. But we shouldn't pretend like reasons to _not_ go with EF are all petty, pointless, purely commercial or will spell the end of EF. 

Going with a new mount is not destroying a monopoly -- it's _expanding the business._ EF does not die off if a new mount arrives. Treat a new mirrorless mount like you would the EF-M mount: it's just another option while EF keeps plugging away.

And what does a thin mount option deliver that EF mirrorless cannot?


It protects Canon from the threat of being sold against with the perception of newer, smaller tech being 'next generation'. Canon will have a small FF ILC option as well to fend that off.
It gives existing Canonites the option to take less volume of kit with us (for travel, leisure, etc.) when we want to.
Canon might offer an ultra-ultra-small gripless body that photographers could pack in a tiny footprint in a bag as a second body: think EOS M (original) body, just scaled up a bit. It would take up the space of a portable hard drive in your bag.
It lets Canon pursue new customers that are intimidated by a larger camera or do not want such an indiscreet instrument. Think cool kids on IG, 1%-ers with money to burn, Fuji fashionistas who long for something better than crop that isn't a > $10K medium format investment, etc. In no uncertain terms, this is nontrivial new money for Canon to pursue.
It lets old-timers and tinkerers adapt glass. Shoot FD again. Shoot competitive glass -- you finally can give that Nikkor 14-24 2.8, 105 1.4 or 28 1.4 a go.

And nothing precludes Canon from simply offering a full EF mount mirrorless later. If existing FF customers truly freak out at life with an adaptor for (what might turn out to be) the very small number of thin mount lenses they end up making, Canon can always slide out a full-on mirrorless peer with a 5D or 6D title and all will be well.

- A


----------



## scyrene (Jul 6, 2018)

Generalized Specialist said:


> What a joke. Canon has become one of the laughing stocks of the industry.



: : :


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2018)

I think the heart of all this mount heartburn is that some folks are convinced a new mount for FF mirrorless spells the end of EF.

Let's unpack that and possibly reassure some folks:


Unit sales of FF cameras are simply not what they once were. I'm not convinced Canon has the appetite, patience, werewithal, etc. to rebuild even a core 20 lenses of EF, let alone 60+. It's much more in their best interests to keep the good ship EF in fighting shape with periodic updates.


As everyone here will (correctly) tell you, if size is the principal motivation behind a new mount, virtually no size is saved if you want to shoot faster than f/2 primes, faster than f/4 zooms, or longer than (roughly) 85mm or so. Looking at TDP using those criteria, *28 out 39 EF primes and 23 out of 28 EF zooms would not save you any space* on a thin mount. So Canon would be (effectively) doubling its inventory for a good ~ 75% of its lenses just to obviate the need for an adaptor. That doesn't make any sense to do. 


I have yet to hear some new compelling camera to lens communication technology or 'new jazzy thing' that a thin new mount would uniquely enable that would make these new lenses more attractive that could not be implemented with a full EF mount.

I interpret all of this to mean that if a thin mount FF mirrorless is coming, it would have to be a gangbusters hit for Canon to put more than an EF-M level spread of lenses out into the world. So I just don't see a thin mount ever getting the full FE treatment like Sony has done. At best, they might drop a couple 'GM-like' pro lenses in the staple pro areas (24-70 2.8, _maybe_ a 70-200 2.8.) and that will be it. 

- A


----------



## scyrene (Jul 6, 2018)

sanj said:


> Generalized Specialist said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1 said:
> ...



I can't tell if this is a joke but if not : : :


----------



## Yasko (Jul 6, 2018)

The image for the full frame camera with the 35 f/1.4 always surprises me. A camera completely without a grab handle / knob. :
A little too simplistic thoughts flew into this.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2018)

Yasko said:


> The image for the full frame camera with the 35 f/1.4 always surprises me. A camera completely without a grab handle / knob. :
> A little too simplistic thoughts flew into this.



f/2 and it works. See the RX1R II. 

But yes, I agree. The minute it can bolt on EF (even through an adaptor), someone will grab a 70-200 f/2.8 and slap it on there. This thing needs a grip, IMHO, and a chunky one.

- A


----------



## BillB (Jul 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> sdz said:
> 
> 
> > Why would a rational firm destroy a market in which it has a monopoly position?
> ...



Canon might also go the other way and roil the EF mount camera first, simply because there a lot of EF lenses and EF shooters out there now, and then later follow with the camera with a new short flange distance lens mount. That would avoid the embarrassing position of starting out with a cute new little camera without much in the way of native lenses, a position that Nikon seems to be heading for.


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## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2018)

BillB said:


> Canon might also go the other way and roil the EF mount camera first, simply because there a lot of EF lenses and EF shooters out there now, and then later follow with the camera with a new short flange distance lens mount. That would avoid the embarrassing position of starting out with a cute new little camera without much in the way of native lenses, a position that Nikon seems to be heading for.



Sure, and the poll we've got going would (somewhat) back you up on that: 
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=35293.0

(Most folks are skeptical on staggering two versions if two versions are happening, but it's 2:1 on EF before 'thin' for the six folks who see a staggered approach happening.)

But the "cute new little camera without much in the way of native lenses" is exactly how the A7 brand started, isn't it?

- A


----------



## BillB (Jul 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > Canon might also go the other way and roil the EF mount camera first, simply because there a lot of EF lenses and EF shooters out there now, and then later follow with the camera with a new short flange distance lens mount. That would avoid the embarrassing position of starting out with a cute new little camera without much in the way of native lenses, a position that Nikon seems to be heading for.
> ...



Well, Sony wasn't the second or third cute new kid on the block, and they didn't have a bunch of EF lenses to get people's attention. The two cameras may be announced at the same time, but I think that likely the EF version will be first to market, especially if it has the 5DIV sensor.


----------



## sebasan (Jul 6, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I tried this new soft that adds 1 stop of DR. Shot several landscpae sessions. It's useful somewhat, but in some merged HDR+DPRAW shots, when I tried to recover the deliberately overexposed highlights, they got a strong green cast I couldn't get rid of. I used in-camera histogram for exposure, maybe I over-over exposed the shots. But in general this method takes a lot of guessing and is, in general, unreliable.



I have the same problem doing some tests with the 50mm f/1.8. I think it is a problem of the software which split the file. It is necessary to warn dprslit developers of this problems because it is a beta version yet, and they need to correct some errors. I don't think you need a lot of guessing, but if you are not so comfortable with the field procedure, instead of 1 stop overexposure, you can overexpose 0.5 stops and probably if something fail, the main file will have a lot of details in the shadows and recover some of the highlights (not all of them). In the end, the difference in DR between D850, A7RIII and the 5DIV is aprox half a stop, so no worries.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2018)

BillB said:


> Well, Sony wasn't the second or third cute new kid on the block, and they didn't have a bunch of EF lenses to get people's attention. The two cameras may be announced at the same time, but I think that likely the EF version will be first to market, especially if it has the 5DIV sensor.



I think Canon and Nikon will announce within a day of each other. If there's a chance of a large smash and grab moment with converting users, it could happen here.

Imagine if Nikon goes thin and Canon goes EF? Folks could swap sides both ways (based on which camp they are in on 'keep it seamless' vs. 'keep it small').

Imagine if both Nikon and Sony stay with FX and EF? Sony would certainly get some new users that day.

Imagine if Nikon chooses either -- thin or thick -- and Canon offers both mounts? Canon could landgrab the camp that got left out by Nikon.

I'm not saying the world will turn on its head overnight because of this, but there is an electric combination of pent-up interest in mirrorless + a passion for a given direction on the mount + a lingering air of 'my company isn't pushing hard enough' that might lead some to panic / get angry / flee to (perceived) greener pastures. I don't personally feel this way, but _goodness_ do I find the market-driving mechanics of this fascinating!

- A


----------



## WeekendWarrior (Jul 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> WeekendWarrior said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious why they keep using a Leica Q with "EOS" written on it to advertise the new Canon mirrorless camera.. lol we all know its not going to look that good
> ...



Owning a 5D Mark IV as well as a Leica Q I can say the Canon has better grip to hold , and has weather sealing/change lenses. But on the other hand the Leica Q in smaller, lighter, quieter, sharper an packs better image quality despite having 6 less MPs (though the canon will exceed in extreme low light). I can fit the Leica Q in a super tiny bag, or around my neck all day with 0 fatigue what so ever. Also after adding on a case the Q gets much easier to hold. I guess it just depends what you need it for. 90% of my canon photos were taken on a 24mm so the 28mm was not much of a compromise at all.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2018)

WeekendWarrior said:


> 90% of my canon photos were taken on a 24mm so the 28mm was not much of a compromise at all.



I am 100% one of the weird people who loves ILCs but might be perfectly happy with an X100, RX1R or Q. 28-35 is a money, desert island single FL for me.

(I only rant about 50s because we don't have a good one! )

- A


----------



## BillB (Jul 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> BillB said:
> 
> 
> > Well, Sony wasn't the second or third cute new kid on the block, and they didn't have a bunch of EF lenses to get people's attention. The two cameras may be announced at the same time, but I think that likely the EF version will be first to market, especially if it has the 5DIV sensor.
> ...



Maybe a lot of people will decide to sit on the sidelines until the dust settles, with nobody buying much of anything for a while. Everything has a pretty hefty price tag. If people start thinking about switching brands, then lens purchases become an important part of the puzzle. At some point, somebody could start dropping prices to try to grab some market. With the A7III Sony already has to some extent. This could take a while to sort itself out. DPR should have a field day.


----------



## ahsanford (Jul 6, 2018)

BillB said:


> At some point, somebody could start dropping prices to try to grab some market. With the A7III Sony already has to some extent.



I wouldn't say 'to some extent'. We don't know their production costs of course, but I see the A7 III as a plain-faced giveaway-at-cost to buy share and subsequently pull through some (pricey, presumably higher margin) lens sales. But I could be wrong.

- A


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 7, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > Good Enough usually wins in the marketplace. There's usually a solid niche available for Better Than Others. But Good Enough is where the volume will be."
> ...



not really. you'd be surprised how many pros and even prosumers do not care about the minutiae the forum warriors agonize over.

they are more concerned about ergonomics, and the camera getting out of their way then they ever are about the small differences of DR or whatever is the latest buzz word for the forum warriors.

the reason the DSLR sales are slumping is because so many of the semi professionals and professionals are in the "my current camera is good enough for my business needs" that they don't really care what else is out there, unless it meets their current needs better, and in alot of cases, it doesn't matter.

instead of upgrading every release with pent up demand for better and more advantageous features, it's now, I'll upgrade when it dies.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jul 7, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> the reason the DSLR sales are slumping is because so many of the semi professionals and professionals are in the "my current camera is good enough for my business needs"



You think so? I doubt paid photographers drive the market in any sizable way. Rather, my suspicion is market saturation among those who want ILCs.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 7, 2018)

scyrene said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Generalized Specialist said:
> ...



Sanj doesn't mention the other 137 pros he personally knows that didn't switch. 

Though, I must say; I was sitting in a little coffee shop in downtown Dallas today when 11 Canon shooters walked in. None of us had ever met before, yet when we all began to talk the conversation became a unanimous, "If Canon doesn't get its act together..." It got a little bit embarrassing when we started finishing each other's sentences as though we'd all been lovers for years. Must I go on? You know the story. Now, each of us knew and additional 10 or 15 other Canon shooters who were all saying the same thing. The point is:


----------



## eosuser1234 (Jul 7, 2018)

What if they made the same camera one with EF-M mount and one with ef mount. 
The EF-M mount can techincally take full frame lenses as that flange depth like the Sony E mount. 
Its technically not that muzukashii for someone at Canon to figure this out.


----------



## takesome1 (Jul 7, 2018)

Generalized Specialist said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > It is a sad life to be nothing but a Sony troll.
> ...



Point made, you have to let your pain and anger go.


----------



## takesome1 (Jul 7, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



It is sad when someone hates something so much they would make new accounts over and over again just so they can bash it. It is like they went through a bitter divorce and just can't move on. But what is really twisted is they are the ones that left Canon for Sony. You would think they would be happy with their new mistress and forget about the old broken down Canon they used to use.


----------



## Ozarker (Jul 7, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > scyrene said:
> ...


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 7, 2018)

takesome1, it is sad indeed but there are lots of people who get all bent out of shape over nothing much and in the US at least it seems they often tote guns. I recommend a dose of solitude in the wild for these folk, I guess with a Sony camera in their lap. 

Jack


----------



## Kit. (Jul 7, 2018)

Generalized Specialist said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > It is a sad life to be nothing but a Sony troll.
> ...


So what? Still a sad life.

Try enjoying your pictures.


----------



## jolyonralph (Jul 7, 2018)

Kit. said:


> So what? Still a sad life.
> 
> Try enjoying your pictures.



Exactly. 

Some of my favourite pictures were shot on the EOS 500D with the 50mm f1/.8 II. 

When we consider what is possible now with ANY modern body, even something like the 1300D with a nifty fifty compared with a generation or more back we really have never had it better.

So yes, some cameras have better DR, some have lighter lenses, some have a red ring around them and some even have a Leica badge to show everyone else how rich you are. 

Now, I suffer from Gear Acquisition Syndrome as much as the worst here, but when I bought my Sony A7RII it wasn't because I want to defect from Canon, it's not like sports teams and I've changed my allegiance, I simply bought a tool because I thought I would enjoy using it for the type of photography I do. And I was right. I still have Canon gear, and quite often I go out shooting with both systems together.

Will I replace my A7RII with a Canon mirrorless or another Sony? That depends what the options are! I would *like* to revert to all-Canon to keep things simpler, and I do like Canon's EF-M mirrorless system for APS-C. All they'd need to do to keep me happy is an M5-sized body or slightly larger with FF and I'd buy one on day one.

But many of you don't want that and want something bigger. You're not wrong, and I'm not right. It's down to personal choice.

And whatever happens, whether Canon release a smaller MILC or not, there are always options, with Sony, Nikon and Canon all coming into the market with new bodies there is a lot to choose from.


----------



## sanj (Jul 7, 2018)

scyrene said:


> sanj said:
> 
> 
> > Generalized Specialist said:
> ...



Which part of my comment did you find funny sir? 7 out of 9 do movie poster photography in addition to fashion/studio products.


----------



## BillB (Jul 7, 2018)

Maybe one question is how small and light Canon could build a FF frame 24-70 F4 zoom using an EF-M mount, or a suitable equivalent. For a FF mirrorless of M5ish size to make a lot of sense wouldn't there need to be a normal zoom considerably smaller and lighter than the current EF 24-70 f4 IS? How much smaller and lighter? Would a 24-70 zoom with variable max aperture be ok?


----------



## takesome1 (Jul 7, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:
 

> takesome1, it is sad indeed but there are lots of people who get all bent out of shape over nothing much and in the US at least it seems they often tote guns. I recommend a dose of solitude in the wild for these folk, I guess with a Sony camera in their lap.
> 
> Jack



Should we put this on form 4473?

Are you or have you ever been a Sony owner who is dissatisfied with the way Canon treated you?

Answering yes would indicate mental instability and they wouldn't be able to buy the firearm.


----------



## scyrene (Jul 7, 2018)

sanj said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > sanj said:
> ...



You've posted on this forum over 3000 times and you still think 'I know several people who've switched to Sony' is a compelling argument. I don't find it funny, I'm just rolling my eyes at it : : :


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 7, 2018)

scyrene said:


> You've posted on this forum over 3000 times and you still think 'I know several people who've switched to Sony' is a compelling argument. I don't find it funny, I'm just rolling my eyes at it : : :



Rather sad how many people think anecdotes are data. 

But last week I saw a guy buy a Nikon entry level DSLR at Target. I guess that means DSLRs are outcompeting mirrorless and Nikon is gaining market share. : : :


----------



## Jack Douglas (Jul 7, 2018)

To be honest, even though I don't buy all the Sony arguments, I'm also encountering people who are switching but I think in the population in general we have personalities who tend to switch no matter what company they are with. Perhaps some of them are technical wizes who really know what improvements they're getting and likely some just like the buzz or celebrity status. As many have said, it's great the competition keeps the heat on Canon. But, it does get a bit tiring hearing the same old commentary. 

As a second camera I'm now thinking FF mirrorless and will wait to see what Canon brings because there is a lot I like about Canon. I'm a dodo bird I guess. 

Jack


----------



## snoke (Jul 7, 2018)

tron said:


> I do not understand people wanting another mount. It will be kind of optimal only for some fixed wide angle lenses and nothing else.



Read Canon patents. EOS now slow. Faster lens need new mount.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 7, 2018)

snoke said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > I do not understand people wanting another mount. It will be kind of optimal only for some fixed wide angle lenses and nothing else.
> ...



Indeed – *actually read* Canon patents. EOS now slow. Faster lens need new mount *communication protocol*.


----------



## snoke (Jul 7, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Indeed – *actually read* Canon patents. EOS now slow. Faster lens need new mount *communication protocol*.



Same same. New communication protocol need new mount.

Canon engineer smart know why.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 7, 2018)

snoke said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed – *actually read* Canon patents. EOS now slow. Faster lens need new mount *communication protocol*.
> ...



A new communication protocol could be implemented in a mount physically and electronically compatible with the current EF lenses. While you may call that a 'new mount', doing so is merely semantics. If I can attach my current lenses to the 'new mount' and attach 'new mount' lenses to my current camera, it's not a new mount. Or the mount could be made physically different. As I said...*read* the patent (and be sure you first understand the difference between claims and examples as they pertain to IP).


----------



## Hector1970 (Jul 7, 2018)

For me if Canon have a different size Mount I won’t be buying a Canon Mirrorless in the near future.
If the keep the EF Mount as is I would be likely to buy one if it’s 10FPS or more.
If the smart solution is a new Mount electronically but compatible with EF then I’d be happy too.
So I await with interest Canons decision.
I think if are serious about photography and actually take a lot of photos the existing DSLRs still do the job perfectly.
I don’t think mirrorless is going to improve my photography much.


----------



## dak723 (Jul 7, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> To be honest, even though I don't buy all the Sony arguments, I'm also encountering people who are switching but I think in the population in general we have personalities who tend to switch no matter what company they are with. Perhaps some of them are technical wizes who really know what improvements they're getting and likely some just like the buzz or celebrity status. As many have said, it's great the competition keeps the heat on Canon. But, it does get a bit tiring hearing the same old commentary.
> 
> As a second camera I'm now thinking FF mirrorless and will wait to see what Canon brings because there is a lot I like about Canon. I'm a dodo bird I guess.
> 
> Jack



No you are not a dodo bird! You understand the difference between "buzz" and quality. You understand the difference between choosing the best product for your needs and getting something that may impress others. 

If Sony users love their cameras - good for them. If the cameras perform up to their expectations - good for them. In those cases, they shouldn't give a hoot what Canon is doing or whether or not others prefer Canon.

It is only when folks who don't even own a Sony FF trash Canon and promote Sony that you have to roll your eyes and look away. They have no credibility. They continually lie and/or exaggerate to promote Sony. Why is that? Are they paid "forum-busters"? Are they Sony shareholders? Why do they trash one company and promote another if they don't even own the camera and have no first hand knowledge of whether they would even like the product?

If Sony FF was really so good, they wouldn't need the trolls pushing their products.


----------



## Kit. (Jul 7, 2018)

snoke said:


> Same same. New communication protocol need new mount.


No, it doesn't. Read the patent.



snoke said:


> Canon engineer smart know why.


Indeed.


----------



## unfocused (Jul 7, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> To be honest, even though I don't buy all the Sony arguments, I'm also encountering people who are switching but I think in the population in general we have personalities who tend to switch no matter what company they are with. Perhaps some of them are technical wizes who really know what improvements they're getting and likely some just like the buzz or celebrity status. As many have said, it's great the competition keeps the heat on Canon. But, it does get a bit tiring hearing the same old commentary...



Some people with GAS like to play around, always looking for a new partner that will satisfy what is missing in their life. When a younger, prettier model becomes available, they just have to have it. But, it really doesn't improve their performance for long.


----------



## rjbray01 (Jul 7, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Generalized Specialist said:
> 
> 
> > I would disagree wiith you on this point. When you ask enthusiast's/pro's who the leader is in FF mirrorless, they would have to answer Sony. Yes, they are he only ones in that segment so they 'win' by default, but they are the leaders in that market and have a well sorted out camera and lens lineup already in place. Anything and everything Canon releases in this market segment WILL BE compared thoroughly to the Sony's and Canon will be playing catch up.
> ...



Sorry but this seems exceptionally weak on analysis.

Its like saying "tomorrow I think such-and-such horse will win the race" ... this only becomes interesting to others if you explain WHY you think its going to win.

So it would be nice to know why you think "it will sell".

What is the analysis ? Is it based on 

a) certain product features ?

b) or more historic extrapolation ? ( something like "historically Canon products sold well, therefore future products will sell well too")

c) some other predictive logic ?


----------



## rrcphoto (Jul 7, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > the reason the DSLR sales are slumping is because so many of the semi professionals and professionals are in the "my current camera is good enough for my business needs"
> ...



well i was responding to "but for the semi-pro to professional market there is a much greater awareness of the capabilities of competing equipment."

Most of the working pros use what works for them. they don't get bent out of shape like people in the forum does. and yeah, there's alot of "it's good enough" happening, IMO.


----------



## bhf3737 (Jul 7, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> ...
> 
> So it would be nice to know why you think "it will sell".
> What is the analysis ? Is it based on
> ...


It is not rocket science to extrapolate from history and conclude what Ahsanford correctly posted. The history data of performance of camera manufacturers is available as time series with seasonality (both dollar value and units shipped). You can use Triple Exponential Smoothing (i.e. Holt-Winters method) and make prediction. You may argue that the units shipped and sales dollars have diminishing trend. Still no problem. Use same method with moving average (i.e. use a sliding window for example for the past ten years) and you will still get the same results.


----------



## rjbray01 (Jul 7, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



ah I see ... we can predict Canon's future based on measurements of their past performance.

Does that work for all companies ? 

If not then how do we know it will work for Canon when it doesn't work for others ?

What if Canon decided that (perhaps due to the mobile phone market ... ) another line of their business was expected to be more profitable than Cameras in the future - perhaps medical imaging - and have shifted all their best engineers onto medical imaging instead, whilst just milking their previous prowess in Cameras for as long as possible.

Do you think that would that affect the extrapolation equations at all ?


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## Adelino (Jul 7, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> scyrene said:
> 
> 
> > You've posted on this forum over 3000 times and you still think 'I know several people who've switched to Sony' is a compelling argument. I don't find it funny, I'm just rolling my eyes at it : : :
> ...



Most people I know buy used cameras so I guess the whole market is ******* as people will just rotate used cameras between them.


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## bhf3737 (Jul 7, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> bhf3737 said:
> 
> 
> > rjbray01 said:
> ...


The predictive methods are general. They should work with whatever company's performance data as long as you have good enough data (i.e. several data points with no major disruptions or random changes and with smooth moving average, etc.). 
The scenario you mentioned, although quite unlikely for a profit making company, may introduce more uncertainty to the model.


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## takesome1 (Jul 8, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> rjbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > bhf3737 said:
> ...



Back in the 90's, when day trading on the internet became popular, one of the sure ways to loose your money was to get your trading information from trading forums. 

When it comes to the opinions of the posters on this forum concerning Canon's viability or financial future most of those expressed on this forum are in line and about equal to getting advice from "Drunk Uncle" on SNL.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 8, 2018)

rrcphoto said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > rrcphoto said:
> ...



Yah, when most mfrs are on incremental/diminishing returns updates, good enough is natural. Fair ‘nuff.


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## TAF (Jul 8, 2018)

I wonder if the "sexy" solution to the mount question is:

1. The flagship gets the EF mount.

2. The second model gets the EF-X mount with adapter (perhaps one that can be installed more permanently if desired).

That way they get to play both sides of the street, and will find out quickly which way the market is really interested in going.

I feel quite certain it will not be a moving sensor. Ensuring absolute perpendicularity to the lens mounting plane with a moveable piece is asking for trouble.

It is disappointing to me that the rumor is that they won't be pushing for extra high ISO. That is something I would like to see. However, since high ISO is very much a necessity if you want to use slow lenses (which are what those tiny things for a notional EF-X mount will be if size is everything), doesn't that suggest it won't be a thin mount?


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## BillB (Jul 8, 2018)

TAF said:


> I wonder if the "sexy" solution to the mount question is:
> 
> 1. The flagship gets the EF mount.
> 
> ...



If the flagship gets the 5D IV sensor, its high ISO performance will be pretty good.


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## dkangel (Jul 8, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> takesome1, it is sad indeed but there are lots of people who get all bent out of shape over nothing much and in the US at least it seems they often tote guns. I recommend a dose of solitude in the wild for these folk, I guess with a Sony camera in their lap.
> 
> Jack




"Often tote guns". That is a completely unfounded and ignorant statement to make. Please leave the political aspect out of it. I am a canon guy who also loves his firearms. Nothing wrong with that.


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## BillB (Jul 8, 2018)

A Sony A7 III with a 24-70f4 (and a charger) costs about $3000

The current Canon M5 with a 15-45 costs $1000, and is about a third lighter and 10% smaller on each dimension, if only the body is considered. The differences are greater if the lens is also considered. A new model seems to be on the way. 

The 6DII, with the 24-105 STM lists for $2600, and can be had for $2200. It is about 25% heavier and 15% larger in length and width and depth than the A7III with the 24-70.

We don't know how much Canon's less expensive FF mirrorless will cost, or what its weight and dimensions will be, but Canon already seems to have the A7 III bracketed in weight and size and at considerably lower price points.


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## zim (Jul 8, 2018)

TAF said:


> I wonder if the "sexy" solution to the mount question is:
> 
> 1. The flagship gets the EF mount.
> 
> ...



That, a 5 level ef mount and a smaller 6 level ef-? mount, is where my money is.


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 8, 2018)

dkangel said:


> Jack Douglas said:
> 
> 
> > takesome1, it is sad indeed but there are lots of people who get all bent out of shape over nothing much and in the US at least it seems they often tote guns. I recommend a dose of solitude in the wild for these folk, I guess with a Sony camera in their lap.
> ...



Sorry but you're taking it slightly out of context. People who get _bent out of shape_ often sometimes tote guns. At least that's how it seems to me. I still own a shotgun and two 22's but I no longer shoot. I don't disparage those who like hunting legitimately. However, I do sense there are a growing number of folk who really despise hunters and that saddens me, especially when many/most of them are meat eaters. Off topic, I'll leave it at that. 

Jack


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## takesome1 (Jul 8, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> dkangel said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Douglas said:
> ...



Jack, it is the sad state we live in today. In an attempt to be PC people bend and warp everything you say.

A person who is mentally unstable is unable to purchase a firearm in the US, provided they answer the questions correctly when filling out the transfer form. (excluding shotguns which require no check)

The question really posed, does being an angry Sony shill rise to the level of mental instability to prevent them from purchasing a firearm? 

Probably not, but maybe in the future when I am in a public area filled with photographers I will watch a little closer when a Sony owner gets a close. But that's not true either, most likely I will strike up a conversation with them about photography and just avoid conversations about DR.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 8, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> The question really posed, does being an angry Sony shill rise to the level of mental instability to prevent them from purchasing a firearm?



Can we go back to battery meters showing total coulomb counts, cameras making coffee, magic codecs which increase the resolution of a sensor to 16,000x16,000, or something else less ridiculous than this question?


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## takesome1 (Jul 8, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> takesome1 said:
> 
> 
> > The question really posed, does being an angry Sony shill rise to the level of mental instability to prevent them from purchasing a firearm?
> ...



If you have the answers.


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## 3kramd5 (Jul 8, 2018)

Forty two


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## Jack Douglas (Jul 8, 2018)

We need a little comic relief from this deadly serious issue of whether Canon is obsolete, outdated, dead, ******* or ________. 

I just want to see what they'll have to offer that would serve me better than lugging my 1DX2, which I absolutely love with the 400 DO II X2 on it. I've never been more thrilled with Canon for that combination but on the streets on holiday I'd like something good but smaller and lighter.

Jack


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## slclick (Jul 9, 2018)

You know, there's a CR3 thread?


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