# 5D iii with 135 mm 85 mm 50 mm wedding in servo poor focus any ideas?



## lukemike (May 11, 2014)

Hi there.
I was shooting a wedding yesterday. 5d iii worked great with one major exception. When shooting couples dancing (iso around 5000 1/200 s ). it was not able to deliver a sharp image (maybe one sharp in 10 shots) lenses used 50 f/1.4 , 85 f/1.8, 135 f/2L and 16-35 f/2.8 L II. Servo mode tried differnet cases different settings (points, first image priority etc). It was not a motion blur. Does anyone have an experience working with these lenses in servo? I mean I tried everything with no result. Are these lenses simply too slow for tracking? Was it too dark? Thanks.


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## Sporgon (May 11, 2014)

Maybe you should have tried a 6D ?


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## RLPhoto (May 11, 2014)

Did you set the camera to focus priority and use only the cross type points? Also did you try using AF assist on a speedlite?


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## IsaacImage (May 11, 2014)

Just to let you know, that in "AL SERVO" mode AF assist doesn't work. so that's might cause of your problem.
135L on of the faster Canon lenses BTW.
Cheers


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## jdramirez (May 11, 2014)

What was your depth of field? If you are simply aiming at the front of the couple 

O|O

You have the person, then the space in between the couple, and then the partner. Maybe you were shooting at a DOF too shallow and so the partner was out of focus. 

I'd suggest shooting with speedlites and a aperture of maybe f/5.6... of camera of course... I have an article in my to read list upstairs... I'll post that later, but I don't shoot weddings... so it is low on my to read list.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 11, 2014)

lukemike said:


> Hi there.
> I was shooting a wedding yesterday. 5d iii worked great with one major exception. When shooting couples dancing (iso around 5000 1/200 s ). it was not able to deliver a sharp image (maybe one sharp in 10 shots) lenses used 50 f/1.4 , 85 f/1.8, 135 f/2L and 16-35 f/2.8 L II. Servo mode tried differnet cases different settings (points, first image priority etc). It was not a motion blur. Does anyone have an experience working with these lenses in servo? I mean I tried everything with no result. Are these lenses simply too slow for tracking? Was it too dark? Thanks.



Your settings need to be changed to require focus lock priority. In AI Servo, the shutter will open before focus is achieved unless you change your settings.

I don't have my 5D3 here at my desk, but the settings are in the manual. You want to prioritize focus over a quick shot.


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## risc32 (May 11, 2014)

i second what mt spokane said. i shoot wedding receptions often and i would like to ask if you were using your flash. if not, 1/200th might just be to slow. you were at iso 5000, hmmm.... well, i'm usually at iso 800, f2.8-f4, and somewhere between 1/50th-1/200th(sometimes much slower yet, but that's usually for effect), and i use flash + servo focus, "stock" standard AF setting. when i get a shot off before my flash recycles i can see that without it i really don't have anything, so the flash is building the whole thing. i miss some, but i keep most, plus i take plenty.


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## YuengLinger (May 11, 2014)

And I third what MtSpokane said, and second what risc32 is suggesting.

As for the lenses, the 135mm is one of my quickest for AF, and my 16-35mm (version 1) is very snappy. I do like to have at least a 430ex on for a little AF assist (with the flash set to not fire) in lower light situations.

As for the 85mm 1.8, that might be the fastest AF I've ever used. Pretty much instantaneous. The 50mm 1.4 is also quick for me, but not as accurate as any of the others in low light for me.

In my still limited wedding experience, at many receptions, using a flash bothers few guests. I've done quite a few other low light events, though, and if you have your camera set with a higher ISO, say 3200, you need very little flash to just bring some life and separation to skin tones while still keeping a high enough shutter speed to sharpen up features. Bouncing the flash is very important, and, of course, no matter which way the flash head is pointed, you still get the benefit of the AF assist beam. Having an assistant who you work well with is fantastic for having a little off-camera flash (but you still need a master speedlite on your camera for the AF assist).


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## jdramirez (May 11, 2014)

I have a yongnuo 622c and it sends out the ir beams, but it also doesn't work in ai servo... but it does work in the middle option, whatever that is called... and it is supposed to react to movement.


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## lukemike (May 11, 2014)

Thanks for the input guys. To answer a couple of questions. No no flash was used so no assist beam. It was not motion blur. Yes I have changed first image to focus priority instead of shutter release priority with no result. My tracking in servo is spot on, aiming for the head for a few seconds before first shot - did sports for a while so the focus point is where it needs to be and stays there. I was just wondering if anybody had the same crappy experience with this setup as I did (which is not mine btw). I was just shocked how bad it was - it is 1dx focus module after all. Don't get me wrong 5d iii worked great for all static shots, sharp and accurate, it was just that servo mode. Anyway if anyone had similar problem or doesn't have any problems pkease let me know. Thank you.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 11, 2014)

lukemike said:


> Thanks for the input guys. To answer a couple of questions. No no flash was used so no assist beam. It was not motion blur. Yes I have changed first image to focus priority instead of shutter release priority with no result. My tracking in servo is spot on, aiming for the head for a few seconds before first shot - did sports for a while so the focus point is where it needs to be and stays there. I was just wondering if anybody had the same crappy experience with this setup as I did (which is not mine btw). I was just shocked how bad it was - it is 1dx focus module after all. Don't get me wrong 5d iii worked great for all static shots, sharp and accurate, it was just that servo mode. Anyway if anyone had similar problem or doesn't have any problems pkease let me know. Thank you.


 
Mine has no issues that way, the camera might have a problem. Make sure you are not using spot AF, its poor in low light, activate the surround points.


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## GMCPhotographics (May 11, 2014)

These are tricky lenses to master and it takes a number of years to fully get the best out of them. So I wouldn't expect a fast prime newbie to pick a set up....rock up to a wedding / paid gig and expect stellar results. This is why my 2nd photographer grew into her primes proportionately to her skill growth in the wedding industry. 
Personally, I think it's easier to use a 6D / 5DII with a fine focus screen, using centre point...point and re-compose technique. you can see when the lens depth of field isn't in the right place. The 5DIII's AF is amazing, but the viewfinder screen is DOF limited to about f2.8. A fast prime's DOF is a LOT shallower than that and can't be perceived through the view finder.


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## YuengLinger (May 12, 2014)

Light was too low, or camera has a problem, or user error (which I guess also encompasses light being too low).

Time to try this again in a PRACTICE situation before an event. Create the same light, as close as you can, get some friends as stand-ins, and figure out what went wrong.

Such a rehearsal is pretty much required if you expect to get paid. And more than once.


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## jdramirez (May 12, 2014)

http://fstoppers.com/free-wedding-tutorial-how-to-light-wedding-reception-venues

for what it is worth... I skimmed it... it seemed reasonable...


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## Albi86 (May 12, 2014)

lukemike said:


> Are these lenses simply too slow for tracking?



I don't have direct experience with all of those, but it seems to me that this is the most likely circumstance. High performance in AI Servo doesn't sound like an engineering priority for a 50/1.4 or a UWA zoom. 

Consider that the 50, 85 and 135mm are also very old lenses.


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## Valvebounce (May 12, 2014)

Hi Lukemke. 
We're you using Back Button Focus? Either way have a look at this posting for more ideas on problems with AIServo focus.
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=20883.0

Cheers Graham.



lukemike said:


> Hi there.
> I was shooting a wedding yesterday. 5d iii worked great with one major exception. When shooting couples dancing (iso around 5000 1/200 s ). it was not able to deliver a sharp image (maybe one sharp in 10 shots) lenses used 50 f/1.4 , 85 f/1.8, 135 f/2L and 16-35 f/2.8 L II. Servo mode tried differnet cases different settings (points, first image priority etc). It was not a motion blur. Does anyone have an experience working with these lenses in servo? I mean I tried everything with no result. Are these lenses simply too slow for tracking? Was it too dark? Thanks.


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## Marsu42 (May 12, 2014)

lukemike said:


> Are these lenses simply too slow for tracking?



Without putting too fine a point on it, if it doesn't work with these lenses and the 5d3 af your technique might need some improvement. For comparison, try a 6d and 100L :->



lukemike said:


> Was it too dark?



Yes, indeed, was it too dark? Your 5d3 af works up to -2LV, what was your light value (exposure time, aperture, iso of some shots)?


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## risc32 (May 12, 2014)

i can say without any reservations it's not the lenses. whatever you use won't net you 100% keepers, but unless something silly is happening you should be getting something north of 80%. i also used to shoot sports and still do with my kids. clearly sporting events requirements vary, but i've never seen any sporting event like a wedding reception. it's good exp though, just different, like all the other niches in photography. in my exp i would say that if my 5dmk3 can get a lock on something at a wedding, it doesn't really lose it. i really only struggle when it's so dark i can't get anything out of it. then i switch to MF and shoot it up. sometimes it is just silly dark. i'd like to know what aperture values you were using, and maybe a rough estimate of shooting distance. either that was just to much of an ask, your 5d settings are funny, or it's defective. you liked what the 1dx could do, was that a wedding, or people running around on a sunny day?


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## jdramirez (May 12, 2014)

Unless I'm shooting in burst at a moving target, I usually don't use ai servo. I put the camera in one of the first two options and take single shots. 

As for the lenses af motor being too slow, the 135 can be used in a sports capacity and it is not to slow the 85 L and mkii are slow... but not the f1.8. I haven't used the fifty in a while, but I would say it should be fine shooting dancers.


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## Random Orbits (May 12, 2014)

Honestly, I've never liked using fast primes in AI servo (24L II, 35L, 50 f/1.4, 50L, 85L II). The 135L has much faster AF speed than the other fast primes, but my lenses of choice for that type of shot are the 24-70L f/2.8 II and the 70-200L f/2.8 IS II. I find that those two zooms are MUCH better for AI servo than the primes listed above, so yes, the lens can definitely affect AI servo performance.

The other issue is low light/low contrast targets. AF accuracy is poorer at lower light levels in servo. The -2 spec for the 5DIII is for statics. It can take over 1 second to lock in at something at -2 EV, so tracking accurately at low light levels is going to be VERY hard. I tend to use a single point (rather than point expansion) in crowds to more easily have the AF focus on the target I want. Also focus on high contrast edges (light colored shirt/dark jacket) and as RLPhoto suggested, use only the cross points -- they work better when the lighting gets tough.


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## Besisika (May 12, 2014)

I am wonderring if you can replicate the situation, if yes, compare them with 100mm L (just rent it if you don't have one). 
I shoot both boxing and wedding. For boxing 135 at f2 and 85l both 1.2 and 2 work and I get above 80% keeper on 5d MK iii. I struggled too during wedding dances. It is darker. I tried the 100mmL macro and it performs much better. I don't know if it is the lenses I have but I would try.
I moved up to 1DX and I get better results using the same technique and same config (focus first). I still shoot with the 100L during wedding dance and bouquet tossing, though. I shoot burst, first the throwing bride then the ladies catching the bouquet so I can't take a chance. The camera doesn't choke with the macro and the flashes don't miss.
Maybe it is worth a try for you.


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## jasonsim (May 12, 2014)

Yep. My experience too. I used to shoot indoor ice skating with a 5D III and 135mm f/2. Too slow to keep up. The 1Dx does a little better with the 135mm f/2L, but not much. To get the best Servo performance with your 5D III you need to use 24-70mm f/2.8L II and 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II.



lukemike said:


> Hi there.
> I was shooting a wedding yesterday. 5d iii worked great with one major exception. When shooting couples dancing (iso around 5000 1/200 s ). it was not able to deliver a sharp image (maybe one sharp in 10 shots) lenses used 50 f/1.4 , 85 f/1.8, 135 f/2L and 16-35 f/2.8 L II. Servo mode tried differnet cases different settings (points, first image priority etc). It was not a motion blur. Does anyone have an experience working with these lenses in servo? I mean I tried everything with no result. Are these lenses simply too slow for tracking? Was it too dark? Thanks.


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## Marsu42 (May 12, 2014)

Besisika said:


> I am wonderring if you can replicate the situation, if yes, compare them with 100mm L (just rent it if you don't have one). I shoot both boxing and wedding. For boxing 135 at f2 and 85l both 1.2 and 2 work and I get above 80% keeper on 5d MK iii. I struggled too during wedding dances. It is darker. I tried the 100mmL macro and it performs much better.



Interesting, looking at the 100L performance on 6d I really didn't expect that as the macro lens af speed is crawling slow. On the other hand, this might be the very reason it performs ok in difficult situations vs. standard lenses like 135L? The 85L seems to have to move too much glass to be a fast af performer.


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## lukemike (May 13, 2014)

GMCPhotographics said:


> These are tricky lenses to master and it takes a number of years to fully get the best out of them. So I wouldn't expect a fast prime newbie to pick a set up....rock up to a wedding / paid gig and expect stellar results. This is why my 2nd photographer grew into her primes proportionately to her skill growth in the wedding industry.
> ...



May agree with you that getting the right photo composition or light takes years to master. But not the focus. If getting a sharp image from a given lens takes years to master it is a crappy lens that does not work right. It's simply not. What's the point of getting around its limitations if you can get a product that does not have them. It took me one day to master 400 f/2.8 on D4 or 70-200 f/2.8 IS II on 7D, Most of the images were sharp in most conditions. What struck me is that the setup that I assumed will work spot on in focus dept. (5D and theses lenses) did not. Saying it's the way things are is living in the past and making life more complicated.




Valvebounce said:


> Hi Lukemke.
> We're you using Back Button Focus? Either way have a look at this posting for more ideas on problems with AIServo focus.
> http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=20883.0
> 
> Cheers Graham.


Yes - af-on button on the back for focusing, shutter release button only for matering and shutter. 





> Yes, indeed, was it too dark? Your 5d3 af works up to -2LV, what was your light value (exposure time, aperture, iso of some shots)?



Looking at the shots that may be the reason. How do you calculate Light Value?



risc32 said:


> i can say without any reservations it's not the lenses. whatever you use won't net you 100% keepers, but unless something silly is happening you should be getting something north of 80%. ... . i really only struggle when it's so dark i can't get anything out of it. then i switch to MF and shoot it up. sometimes it is just silly dark. i'd like to know what aperture values you were using, and maybe a rough estimate of shooting distance. either that was just to much of an ask, your 5d settings are funny, or it's defective. you liked what the 1dx could do, was that a wedding, or people running around on a sunny day?



ISO around 5000 exp time 1/100 - 1/200, what do you think? [email protected] f/2.0, [email protected]/2.0, [email protected]/2. Images properly exposed, no motion blur. Distance: different, usualy to get a couple in the frame whole body or waist up.


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## Marsu42 (May 13, 2014)

lukemike said:


> Looking at the shots that may be the reason. How do you calculate Light Value?



-2LV on 5d3 is the "stops working" stage, but it might get much slower near that dim light. For further information,
just ask KR  ... http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/ev.htm


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## Maximilian (May 13, 2014)

jdramirez said:


> What was your depth of field?
> ...
> Maybe you were shooting at a DOF too shallow


I guess this was the point. What aperture were you shooting with?
If wide open, I suppose it was a DOF problem with the dancers moving OOF during shutter release.

In such conditions I swich to M mode with auto ISO (enhanced, if needed) to have full control of aperture and shutter. And then I have to close the aperture as much as needed. 
Normally this works. But sometimes it is just to dark for the AF.


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## djh901 (May 13, 2014)

I had all kinds of problems with my 5D3 when I first got it. Dont know if this helps but I put it back in default *factory setting* several times. Then went back and reset everything. Never had anymore focus problems. Also if one little software switch is in the wrong setting the camera will focus wrong.


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## Maximilian (May 13, 2014)

something else, not mentioned yet (if I didn't miss it):
Did you AFMA the used lenses?


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## jaayres20 (May 13, 2014)

I didn't take the time to read the other posts so if this has already been mentioned then I am sorry. Servo mode is not a great idea for a dark first dance. I am not confident in my 1DX having the best success for that either. You should always avoid using that when it is dark if possible. Always use one shot so that the AF assist beam on the flash will help you focus. I have a 1DX and 5D3 and even though they have great AF performance, it is not good enough to shoot sharp images consistently in the dark. The AF assist beam will work wonders for you, but is only available in one shot focus drive mode. Also, focus on something light, like the grooms white shirt next to his black jacket. Also use the center AF points. They are the most sensitive.


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## gsealy (May 13, 2014)

IMO with it being a critical 'once only' situation then it is best to calculate a good DOF beforehand and set up the camera appropriately. Yes, it is great to get those great narrow DOF bokeh shots, but the risks are higher too. And additionally, counting on a chip in the camera's processor is risky too. It could decide to focus on anything!


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## jdramirez (May 13, 2014)

If he was at a distance, the dof would be greater... closer to the subject... thinner. So yes... what aperture was he shooting at, but also how far with each lens. 



Maximilian said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > What was your depth of field?
> ...


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## RyanSandsPhotography (May 14, 2014)

I shoot with a Canon 5d mark iii at my weddings and I can tell you first hand that servo mode isn't going to help you much with "dancing" shots during the reception. Your better off in one shot mode with only cross type points turned on. Use a cluster of 9 points that are near your subjects face and with a good lens your going to nail your focus almost 100% of the time. Now I use the Canon 24-70 2.8 ii and the Canon 70-200 f2.8 is ii. These new lenses were built to work perfectly with the 5d mark iii's new focus system. I've rented and used all the lenses you mentioned. The 50L is the worst in my opinion of the 3. Good luck getting any decent shots with that thing in poor light..I wouldn't even bother using it. The 135L can handle itself but 135mm is too long for dance shots when your moving about the dance floor ducking in and out of guests. The 85 1.8 isn't too bad of a performer in good light but again dance floors are usually dark so good luck. If you want to cover dancing easily you want a good general zoom like the new 24-70 ii. The 16-35 ii has issues with locking focus in low light and it's not particularly sharp at 2.8. You would have to stop down to f4 to get any decent sharpness out of it. 

I'm not sure why others have said this but don't even bother with the 6D. It's focus system is severally lacking and your 5d mark iii is in a complete differently league. 

I'm not sure if your using on camera flash but your going to want that for the focus assist beam that it provides. If it were me I wouldn't waste time shooting with primes on the dance floor and go with something more versatile like a standard zoom. With the right lighting setup you should be at around 800-1000 ISO with a 160th-200th shutter speed at f-stop 2.8-3.5 on manual mode.


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## lukemike (May 14, 2014)

Thanks Ryan, that pretty much answers all my questions. 5D III isn't mine, I'm currently changing my gear and I'm considering 5d III, 1dx or d4. By saying "Use a cluster of 9 points that are near your subjects face and with a good lens your going to nail your focus almost 100% of the time" do mean one shot or servo mode?
Thanks.



RyanSandsPhotography said:


> I shoot with a Canon 5d mark iii at my weddings and I can tell you first hand that servo mode isn't going to help you much with "dancing" shots during the reception. Your better off in one shot mode with only cross type points turned on. Use a cluster of 9 points that are near your subjects face and with a good lens your going to nail your focus almost 100% of the time. Now I use the Canon 24-70 2.8 ii and the Canon 70-200 f2.8 is ii. These new lenses were built to work perfectly with the 5d mark iii's new focus system. I've rented and used all the lenses you mentioned. The 50L is the worst in my opinion of the 3. Good luck getting any decent shots with that thing in poor light..I wouldn't even bother using it. The 135L can handle itself but 135mm is too long for dance shots when your moving about the dance floor ducking in and out of guests. The 85 1.8 isn't too bad of a performer in good light but again dance floors are usually dark so good luck. If you want to cover dancing easily you want a good general zoom like the new 24-70 ii. The 16-35 ii has issues with locking focus in low light and it's not particularly sharp at 2.8. You would have to stop down to f4 to get any decent sharpness out of it.
> 
> I'm not sure why others have said this but don't even bother with the 6D. It's focus system is severally lacking and your 5d mark iii is in a complete differently league.
> 
> I'm not sure if your using on camera flash but your going to want that for the focus assist beam that it provides. If it were me I wouldn't waste time shooting with primes on the dance floor and go with something more versatile like a standard zoom. With the right lighting setup you should be at around 800-1000 ISO with a 160th-200th shutter speed at f-stop 2.8-3.5 on manual mode.


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## RyanSandsPhotography (May 15, 2014)

Luke you would be in one shot mode. And yes, do yourself a huge favor and save up for the 5d mark iii. Unfortunately for Canon the only two good focusing systems in their entire lineup are the ones in the 5d mark iii and 1Dx. While the 1Dx is an amazing camera it is just overkill for weddings and events when first starting out. Although I do plan on purchasing one as my next camera to compliment my 5d iii it would be solely for gear lust and not because I need it to get the job done. You could easily own two 5d mark iii cameras for your wedding bodies and never ever miss the 1Dx. Just don't ever pick up a 1Dx in the store and play with it haha...then you will have serious gear lust for that thing lol.


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