# R5 AF speed with 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6l is ii usm & 2x extenter iii



## heheapa (Jul 31, 2020)

Just got my R5 last night and did some quick field testing today. 

There wasn't much info about the AF speed for EF lens. So I have taken out my EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6l is ii usm and the 2x extender iii to try some bird in flight. The combo yield 800mm f/11 in aperture. However, it work very well for the bird eye tracking in continuous AF. And thanks to the IBIS, i can shoot at 1/500s and yield very stable result.

That's really a big improvement from previous EOS R. And that's not even possible with my 1DX.
Besides, the image detail is awesome with the latest sensor. The image quality with 2x extender and wide open aperture usually not impressive in previous models. I can tell you now it's greatly improved.

I am just another happy owner now


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## AlanF (Jul 31, 2020)

heheapa said:


> Just got my R5 last night and did some quick field testing today.
> 
> There wasn't much info about the AF speed for EF lens. So I have taken out my EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6l is ii usm and the 2x extender iii to try some bird in flight. The combo yield 800mm f/11 in aperture. However, it work very well for the bird eye tracking in continuous AF. And thanks to the IBIS, i can shoot at 1/500s and yield very stable result.
> 
> ...


I can see that the AF is improved. But, I don't understand how the image quality can be improved. The IQ of the 100-400mm II drops because of the hit of the TC on the MTF values, which become more noticeable the higher the Mpx of the sensor. It just doesn't make sense to me that the IQ of the 100-400mm II + 2xTC gets magically better with R5 sensor. (I use the 100-400mm II, and have played with the 2xTC on it using liveview with the 7DII, 5DIII, 5DIV, 5DSR and 90D. It's pretty good and I will use it with the R5).


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## koenkooi (Jul 31, 2020)

heheapa said:


> Just got my R5 last night and did some quick field testing today.
> 
> There wasn't much info about the AF speed for EF lens. So I have taken out my EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6l is ii usm and the 2x extender iii to try some bird in flight. The combo yield 800mm f/11 in aperture. However, it work very well for the bird eye tracking in continuous AF. And thanks to the IBIS, i can shoot at 1/500s and yield very stable result.
> [..]



IBIS will not do any shake reduction when used with EF IS lenses, it isn't stated outright, but it is heavily implied that only rotational corrections are done in that case.
As you have have noticed, that does help a bit


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## heheapa (Jul 31, 2020)

AlanF said:


> I can see that the AF is improved. But, I don't understand how the image quality can be improved. The IQ of the 100-400mm II drops because of the hit of the TC on the MTF values, which become more noticeable the higher the Mpx of the sensor. It just doesn't make sense to me that the IQ of the 100-400mm II + 2xTC gets magically better with R5 sensor. (I use the 100-400mm II, and have played with the 2xTC on it using liveview with the 7DII, 5DIII, 5DIV, 5DSR and 90D. It's pretty good and I will use it with the R5).



The ISO performance is improved. Shooting f/11 required higher ISO. The IQ improvement could be contributed by that. Overall, you will get much better experience shooting with 2x extender.


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## Joules (Jul 31, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> IBIS will not do any shake reduction when used with EF IS lenses, it isn't stated outright, but it is heavily implied that only rotational corrections are done in that case.
> As you have have noticed, that does help a bit


Where is that implied?


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## Bert63 (Jul 31, 2020)

heheapa said:


> Just got my R5 last night and did some quick field testing today.
> 
> There wasn't much info about the AF speed for EF lens. So I have taken out my EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6l is ii usm and the 2x extender iii to try some bird in flight. The combo yield 800mm f/11 in aperture. However, it work very well for the bird eye tracking in continuous AF. And thanks to the IBIS, i can shoot at 1/500s and yield very stable result.
> 
> ...




Example pics anywhere?

This is great news.

Makes me really wonder about the new 800mm f/11.


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## AlanF (Jul 31, 2020)

heheapa said:


> The ISO performance is improved. Shooting f/11 required higher ISO. The IQ improvement could be contributed by that. Overall, you will get much better experience shooting with 2x extender.


It can't be due to that. Any improvement at high iso is not going to be very significant - the main noise at high iso comes from shot noise in the photon flux, not the sensor. No way are you going to get a much better IQ with the 2xTC. AF yes, IQ no.


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## Staz (Jul 31, 2020)

heheapa said:


> Just got my R5 last night and did some quick field testing today.
> 
> There wasn't much info about the AF speed for EF lens. So I have taken out my EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6l is ii usm and the 2x extender iii to try some bird in flight. The combo yield 800mm f/11 in aperture. However, it work very well for the bird eye tracking in continuous AF. And thanks to the IBIS, i can shoot at 1/500s and yield very stable result.
> 
> ...


Good to know. How did you get on with EVF lag and blackout. Also what FPS did the R5 manage in your test. As a BIF tog I'm very interested in your findings as I'm on the fence about ordering a R5 atm until good people like you test them in the field.


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## heheapa (Jul 31, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> IBIS will not do any shake reduction when used with EF IS lenses, it isn't stated outright, but it is heavily implied that only rotational corrections are done in that case.
> As you have have noticed, that does help a bit



I also tried on my old minolta tele manual focus lens via adapter and the IBIS is working too. Just need to set the focal length in the menu. I don't know how many stops it improve but i used to shoot 1/250s or faster to get sharp image. Now I can shoot below 1/100s


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## heheapa (Jul 31, 2020)

Staz said:


> Good to know. How did you get on with EVF lag and blackout. Also what FPS did the R5 manage in your test. As a BIF tog I'm very interested in your findings as I'm on the fence about ordering a R5 atm until good people like you test them in the field.



I don't feel the lag and blackout. There is a setting in menu for DISP performance to select whether 120fps or 60fps. I set it for performance as default. I recall in some youtube video mention battery life will drop faster.


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## heheapa (Jul 31, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Example pics anywhere?
> 
> This is great news.
> 
> Makes me really wonder about the new 800mm f/11.







__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1184904478553397


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## H. Jones (Jul 31, 2020)

Bert63 said:


> Example pics anywhere?
> 
> This is great news.
> 
> Makes me really wonder about the new 800mm f/11.



Like I was sharing on the other thread yesterday, I've absolutely loved the quality and performance from the R5's crop mode with the EF 100-400L II and 1.4x, so I now see the 800mm more as an effective 1280mm F/11, making it a lot more interesting to me personally. Just add one 1.4x extender and it's a 1792mm f/16 with autofocus, which is a combination that would have been absolutely impractical in any DSLR, nevermind at a total cost of like, $1300.


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## AlanF (Jul 31, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> Like I was sharing on the other thread yesterday, I've absolutely loved the quality and performance from the R5's crop mode with the EF 100-400L II and 1.4x, so I now see the 800mm more as an effective 1280mm F/11, making it a lot more interesting to me personally. Just add one 1.4x extender and it's a 1792mm f/16 with autofocus, which is a combination that would have been absolutely impractical in any DSLR, nevermind at a total cost of like, $1300.


Why will you be using the crop mode?


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## H. Jones (Jul 31, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Why will you be using the crop mode?



In my area most of the birds I photograph are mainly skittish smaller songbirds, like chickadees and finches. For those subjects, I've always had to crop quite a lot with the 100-400 at 560. Using the 1.6x crop makes the buffer basically limitless, makes it easier to focus on something that would otherwise be smaller in the frame, and throws out the 50% of data I wouldn't be using anyway, saving a huge amount of card space when shooting at 20 fps.

I set up one of the custom buttons on my R5 to switch between crop and full frame, so it's super easy as well to hit back to full frame when a subject gets close enough to be able to use the full sensor. My 1DX2 is only 20 megapixels to begin with, so I'm not offended at all by the crop of 17 megapixels, which is still 5000 pixels on the long end and can be cropped even more.

My main paid work is sports/breaking news mostly in the evening/night, so I've never had any interest in spending money on a crop camera. But I'd say the R5 is the best of both worlds, it's a great 45mp 20 fps full frame camera and a great 17 mp 20 fps crop camera all in one.


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## AlanF (Jul 31, 2020)

H. Jones said:


> In my area most of the birds I photograph are mainly skittish smaller songbirds, like chickadees and finches. For those subjects, I've always had to crop quite a lot with the 100-400 at 560. Using the 1.6x crop makes the buffer basically limitless, makes it easier to focus on something that would otherwise be smaller in the frame, and throws out the 50% of data I wouldn't be using anyway, saving a huge amount of card space when shooting at 20 fps.
> 
> I set up one of the custom buttons on my R5 to switch between crop and full frame, so it's super easy as well to hit back to full frame when a subject gets close enough to be able to use the full sensor. My 1DX2 is only 20 megapixels to begin with, so I'm not offended at all by the crop of 17 megapixels, which is still 5000 pixels on the long end and can be cropped even more.
> 
> My main paid work is sports/breaking news mostly in the evening/night, so I've never had any interest in spending money on a crop camera. But I'd say the R5 is the best of both worlds, it's a great 45mp 20 fps full frame camera and a great 17 mp 20 fps crop camera all in one.


Good reasons for using crop. It won’t give you 1.6x the reach, it just lowers the field of view.


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## Staz (Jul 31, 2020)

heheapa said:


> I don't feel the lag and blackout. There is a setting in menu for DISP performance to select whether 120fps or 60fps. I set it for performance as default. I recall in some youtube video mention battery life will drop faster.


Thanks a lot Heheapa.


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## Nelu (Jul 31, 2020)

heheapa said:


> And thanks to the IBIS, i can shoot at 1/500s and yield very stable result.


Surprising, I didn't know that the IBIS will also stabilize your birds in flight.
1/500s for BIF? Come on! Maybe for ducks and geese...


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## SteveC (Jul 31, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Surprising, I didn't know that the IBIS will also stabilize your birds in flight.
> 1/500s for BIF? Come on! Maybe for ducks and geese...



And why _wouldn't_ an ibis be stable in flight? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibis )


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## AlanF (Jul 31, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Surprising, I didn't know that the IBIS will also stabilize your birds in flight.
> 1/500s for BIF? Come on! Maybe for ducks and geese...


Ducks move damn fast. I use 1/3200s for them.


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## Nelu (Jul 31, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Ducks move damn fast. I use 1/3200s for them.


Exactly! 
I'm sorry, ducks


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## AlanF (Jul 31, 2020)

SteveC said:


> And why _wouldn't_ an ibis be stable in flight? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibis )


Ibis at 1/3200s on a 5DSR + 100-400mm II + 1.4xTC. Remarkable how this antique equipment ever took BIF.


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## Nelu (Jul 31, 2020)

AlanF said:


> Ibis at 1/3200s on a 5DSR + 100-400mm II + 1.4xTC. Remarkable how this antique equipment ever took BIF.


Yep, ibis does wonders!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 1, 2020)

AlanF said:


> I can see that the AF is improved. But, I don't understand how the image quality can be improved. The IQ of the 100-400mm II drops because of the hit of the TC on the MTF values, which become more noticeable the higher the Mpx of the sensor. It just doesn't make sense to me that the IQ of the 100-400mm II + 2xTC gets magically better with R5 sensor. (I use the 100-400mm II, and have played with the 2xTC on it using liveview with the 7DII, 5DIII, 5DIV, 5DSR and 90D. It's pretty good and I will use it with the R5).


As a general rule, a higher MTF for any component in a system results in a higher overall MTF. The overall MTF is always less than the weakest link, so even if a lens is the weakest link, the overall MTF can be improved.

The system MTF is the product of the MTF of the individual components. So, just looking at two components (there are many), sensor and lens. If sensor is 0.7 and lens is 0.8, overall its a MTF of 5.6. You can play with those numbers to see the result.


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## Bert63 (Aug 1, 2020)

heheapa said:


> Just got my R5 last night and did some quick field testing today.
> 
> There wasn't much info about the AF speed for EF lens. So I have taken out my EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6l is ii usm and the 2x extender iii to try some bird in flight. The combo yield 800mm f/11 in aperture. However, it work very well for the bird eye tracking in continuous AF. And thanks to the IBIS, i can shoot at 1/500s and yield very stable result.
> 
> ...



Any chance you’ll post some examples?


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## AlanF (Aug 1, 2020)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> As a general rule, a higher MTF for any component in a system results in a higher overall MTF. The overall MTF is always less than the weakest link, so even if a lens is the weakest link, the overall MTF can be improved.
> 
> The system MTF is the product of the MTF of the individual components. So, just looking at two components (there are many), sensor and lens. If sensor is 0.7 and lens is 0.8, overall its a MTF of 5.6. You can play with those numbers to see the result.


The context of my comment was that it was claimed that: "The image quality with 2x extender and wide open aperture usually not impressive in previous models. I can tell you now it's greatly improved." The 5DSR sensor is of comparable IQ to that of the 5R and the 90D and M6II are of higher resolution still. So, I still don't understand why this sensor magically improves the IQ of the 2xTC. As you point out, if it lowers the MTF to a value of 0.Z, it will lower all sensors by the same factor of 0.Z.


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## heheapa (Aug 1, 2020)

100-400mm II + 1.4xTC is different. You can get f8 and it's one stop advantage. And we all know that 2x TC IQ can't compete with 1.4xTC.

Attached examples below for the 2x TC. reduced to 50% for the crop and still yield about 6MP.


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## BeenThere (Aug 2, 2020)

Another question about R5 IBIS behavior. When using mode 3 IS on EF telephoto lenses, is IBIS turned on at the instant of the shot (like IS), or, is it always on?


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## heheapa (Aug 3, 2020)

BeenThere said:


> Another question about R5 IBIS behavior. When using mode 3 IS on EF telephoto lenses, is IBIS turned on at the instant of the shot (like IS), or, is it always on?



I am not able to choose the IS option in the menu. The IS On/Off is controlled via the lens IS switch.
I've tried the 100-400L with 1.4x TC with both EOS R and R5 and found the R5 is more stable, at least in the view finder. Not sure if subjective. And I do see the IS icon in the screen. So I don't know if IBIS kicked in.

I shoot with Mode 1 for the BIF. Attached an example with 1.4x TC. I can see the view finder is more vibrate with my handheld with mode 3. Probably can do some try with mode 3 for the BIF later.


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