# "Honey, I'vs never seen it this hard before..."



## strangelove (Jan 25, 2014)

My wife commented, before she asked me why I was having such a tough time choosing a camera.

You see, I was a Nikon shooter for several years, and owned everything from a D70, all the way through to a d700. I finally jumped ship a couple of years ago and got a 5D mark III. 

I'm certainly not a pro, well I am, a pro high school teacher, but not a pro photographer. I used to shoot 10,000-15,000 shots a year for the district. Sports, events, portraits, you name it. Funds were short a few months ago and I had to sell my 5d, with the understanding that I'd replace it when we had the money. Now we have the money.

These days I run a program, and my shooting needs have gone way down. I do however have an 8 month old that refuses to sit still and an apartment with no overheads that seems to be dim and dingy no matter how many lamps I add.

*So, here's the actual question part:
*
As a Nikon shooter, I never even questioned that I'd have a few cross type points to be able to use to accurately compose a shot as I saw it in my mind. Now, I no longer really need the bad-ass 5d3 61 spread AF system. But I rented a 6d and, well, frankly, it blows.

No offense to anyone, if I shot landscapes, I'd love it. But I can't quite believe that I can't compose a shot unless I use the center point. I have to shoot at mainly f1.4-f2 in my apartment, and with that sort of thin DOF, focus and recompose just isn't going to cut it with a moving kid.

So, in short-- I guess I can't quite believe that to get a FF camera with more than 1 cross-type point, I have to spend $3300.

I think a lot of Canon users are ok with it because, prior to the 7d certainly, it was sort of the norm for Canon AF. In fact it still is for the rebel crowd.

Coming from Nikon however, it's like asking a surgeon to perform a transplant with a butter knife.

My wife has a 70d for video of the kid, and we have a 24-105 and a 40mm 2.8. No other investment in Canon glass.

I guess my options are:

1. Suck it up and drop $3300 on a semi-pro 5d, just to get say 5 or 6 more accurate cross-type points across the frame.
2. Stop being an AF namby pamby, and just man up, get a 6d, because "real men do it by hand anyway"!
3. Grab one of those mighty tempting D700's on CL that go for around $1100 (in which the sensor still out performs anything from Canon) grab a couple of primes and go on my way, using the 70 as my video cam.
4. Do something really cool that I never thought of that you all are about to suggest to me.

I'd appreciate any input you guys might have...


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## Random Orbits (Jan 25, 2014)

So you say you have a 5D III



strangelove said:


> You see, I was a Nikon shooter for several years, and owned everything from a D70, all the way through to a d700. I finally jumped ship a couple of years ago and got a 5D mark III.



and then you're asking about getting a 5D III?


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## m (Jan 25, 2014)

4. buy a flash

Af assist beam
+ the ability to make more out of your not so nice ambient light

on a side note: a 5D is "semi pro" ???


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## Albi86 (Jan 25, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> So you say you have a 5D III
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You should read the whole post. The OP had to sell it.

Back OT: with Canon you have to pay dearly to get the good stuff. As you said, the 6D blows in terms of AF. Just so you know, saying that will not buy friends : The latest fashion in here is praising the 6D for having better low-light capabilities and DR than the 5D3 :

If you want to stay with Canon without spending too much, your best shot is a 70D. Sure, you have to give up on the FF part.

Otherwise, yes, your best shot overall is buying a used D700 or a D610. The latter's AF doesn't work too great in low light on its own, but it has an AF assist lamp that for your shooting conditions will make it perfectly suitable.

My choice would be the D610 if money is tight, buy another 5D3 is you prefer the peace of mind.


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## mkabi (Jan 25, 2014)

Random Orbits said:


> So you say you have a 5D III
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Come on, bros... read... it says that he sold the 5DIII.

What I don't get is that the 5DIII has only been out there for a couple of years, and this guy got it and got rid of it within 2 years?

I suggest that you save your money and get a 1DX.
You want better, thats where you got to go... or wait for the 5D4... or jump ship again and get a D800 or something.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 25, 2014)

Spend $2,000 on a 1Ds MkIII. AF up the wazoo, but limited high iso performance. It will focus off center at 1.4 in low light all day long though.


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## Random Orbits (Jan 25, 2014)

Albi86 said:


> Random Orbits said:
> 
> 
> > So you say you have a 5D III
> ...



Ummm... hello. That was not in the original post. The OP edited it.


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## East Wind Photography (Jan 25, 2014)

Just get the 5diii. You get a LOT more than just more cross type af points. You can run the iso easily up to 3200 and probably still never need to go below f4 in your apartment.

Im not even sure why you are even asking this since you already owned one and know what its capable of. If you want a point and shoot to photograph the kids then buy a powershot or an M.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 25, 2014)

Really weird ask for advice on a camera that you had already used, and has sold. It seems that he did not like 5D mark iii, then I recommend trying 1DX. Or maybe try Nikon DF, because someone on this planet should be the target buyer of this thing. Who knows if that person is you?


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## docsmith (Jan 25, 2014)

I wouldn't get the Nikon. I am not one of the anti-Nikon lot, but you already have a 70D and plan to keep it. As you are an amateur, I don't see the reason to have two camera systems in one house. It would be great to be able to swap out lenses between the 70D and a FF Canon camera while you are on vacation, or something like that.

Have you thought about investing in glass and putting the new glass on the 70D? I'd be tempted by that as a first step. The 70D is a solid camera. But, having seen FF, you may not want to go back. But only you can answer the question: 6D or 5DIII? You've had a 5DIII, you know what it can do. If that is what you want, spend the money and be happy. I have a 5DIII and it is amazing. But I know a lot of people with the 6D and they are very happy. A lot of people shot with the 5DII mostly with the center point. 

So, based on what you wrote, I'd first look at glass for the 70D. If that isn't going to work for you, I'd likely buy the 5DIII as you know you like it. Spend the ~$3k and be happy rather than spend $1,800 and be unhappy.


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## strangelove (Jan 25, 2014)

People are so funny when you combine the feeling that they're being personally attacked by virtue of someone not feeling as they do, with the false perception that public forums offer you anonymity.

I did edit my post, but only for a couple of minor grammar issues, I didn't add the part about selling the 5d.

When you really think about it, and try to be objective, is ot really that much to ask for a camera that has a handful of af cross points and a full frame sensor for less than $3300?

I keep reading people saying things like "well it depends what you shoot, it's fine for me..." But do you really only shoot a single type of thing?

I don't shoot pro sports and so don't think I should have to buy a pro sports camera to shoot my son and dog playing in the park with reasonable confidence that the af system will reliably work.


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## Arctic Photo (Jan 25, 2014)

m said:


> 4. buy a flash
> 
> Af assist beam
> + the ability to make more out of your not so nice ambient light
> ...


Exactly. buy a flash, any excess funds could go to another lens.


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## strangelove (Jan 25, 2014)

Just to be clear- I know what the 5d3 can do, I'm not asking for that.

When I had one, my needs were near pro level needs. Events, portraits, thousands of shots each month.

My issue, and question is simply that I'm blown away that I need to buy the same gear to shoot a few sharp pics of my son!

That's all...


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## 9VIII (Jan 25, 2014)

Just get the D700. If in your mind it has better IQ than the 6D and you can get it for half the price then it sounds like the way to go.


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## J.R. (Jan 25, 2014)

strangelove said:


> My issue, and question is simply that I'm blown away that I need to buy the same gear to shoot *a few sharp pics of my son*!
> 
> That's all...



I don't understand why you need to get a FF if that is all that you are going to shoot. 

If you do really want a FF, get a 6D, use focus with the center point and crop - with the high MP sensors these days, it works well enough for family photos (I don't suppose you are not going in for very large prints for what you say you are going to shoot). 

Cameras are just tools, see what you are going to shoot and get the gear accordingly. For simple family photos, why not simply stick to the 70D ... the AF is good enough, isn't it?


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## J.R. (Jan 25, 2014)

9VIII said:


> Just get the D700. If it your mind it has better IQ than the 6D and you can get it for half the price then it sounds like the way to go.



+1 ... additionally, sell the Canon gear you are using for video and get a camcorder.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 25, 2014)

strangelove said:


> I don't shoot pro sports and so don't think I should have to buy a pro sports camera to shoot my son and dog playing in the park with reasonable confidence that the af system will reliably work.


A used 1D MK III is pretty reasonably priced (Under $900). It has a bigger sensor than the rebels, but not FF. Mine had excellent focusing and low light performance. 
If you are looking for the best you can get for the price, its a option. It will hold its value batter as well, since its pretty much depreciated already.

Fred Miranda is a good place to buy used.

Another option is to buy a Canon refurb. They have a 1 yr warranty, and you have 14 days to return it if you don't like it. You can save 10-20% on most bodies by trading in a old broken Canon P&S or film SLR through the Canon loyalty program. High end bodies are usually excluded, but ask, since it changes from time to time.
Inventory of refurbs also changes, and its renewed about every 2-4 weeks. The 5D MK III is out of stock now, but it will be back. Some have said you can add a refurb lens and still get the 20% off, but I didn't ask with my last purchase there. I've bought multiple refurb bodies and lenses, and they were as good or better than new.

http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/ProductListingViewAll_10051_10051_-1_244763#


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## m (Jan 25, 2014)

strangelove said:


> Events, portraits, thousands of shots each month.
> 
> My issue, and question is simply that I'm blown away that I need to buy the same gear to shoot a few sharp pics of my son!



If the lighting conditions are similar (and from what you describe in your entry post, they are) the same gear is required.
I'm not sure what's so surprising about that.

Again, a flash seems to be a cheaper alternative, providing a solution to the problem at hand but also providing creative possibilities in the future.


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## Northstar (Jan 25, 2014)

Re: "Honey, I'vs never seen it this hard before..."

Sounds like a good problem to have? ;D 

Try a few of these around the house to brighten up those lamps. They also have 50-150-250 and you can just keep the lamps on 50 for normal use, and then switch to 250 or 300 when u need some light

GE 41459 - 100/200/300 Watt

http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/54184/IN-41459.html


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## bholliman (Jan 25, 2014)

+1 to the suggestions to buy one or more speedlites.



strangelove said:


> I have to shoot at mainly f1.4-f2 in my apartment, and with that sort of thin DOF, focus and recompose just isn't going to cut it with a moving kid.
> So, in short-- I guess I can't quite believe that to get a FF camera with more than 1 cross-type point, I have to spend $3300.



I shoot my two kids indoors all time with my 6D and don't have to resort to apertures below f/2. The 6D's high ISO capacities allow a range of aperture settings. I also use flash if I don't like the ambient lighting or if I want to avoid really high ISO's.


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## dak723 (Jan 25, 2014)

If I had no reason to print larger than 11" x 17" for example, then I agree with a previous poster that suggests that you use the 70d that you already own. For family pictures it should do the job. I know that people are drawn to the allure of FF, but for most folks, it just isn't needed. I recently bought a 6D because I needed the potential to print large, but for home use - especially for the zoom advantage and lesser depth of field - I also bought a crop-sensor camera, which I would consider to be the better choice for general use.


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## strangelove (Jan 25, 2014)

Thanks to those of you that have tried to advise me here.

I'm surprised that so many of you say there isn't much difference between FF and crop. I rented a 6d to try and af may be um, lacking, but the IQ is absolutely superb. It blows the 70D out of the water on so many levels that are just as evident on screen as they are on paper.

DOF is obviously far narrower, thus isolation much is more pronounced
Color depth is far better
Images shot with the same lens are significantly sharper

Why would everyone not want these advantages?

As for guy who said to sell my 70D and "buy a camcorder"...

Will a camcorder let my wife interchange between hundreds of available lenses and offer superb 20mp still images at anything from TS, Macro and super tele, while offering superb isolation and color fidelity in both stills and video for under $1000?

Video is here to stay, and will someday sell more cameras than stills do... deal with it!

The more I think about it, if I glued a 70D and a 6D together, I'd basically get a 5d3 (plus and minus a few details)

I'm also off to lowes to see whether perhaps something cheap like the bulbs mentioned might be a super cheap solution to in home shooting. Flash is too distracting for the baby (even bounced) so although I have 3 + controllers, it isn't really an option...


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## Lichtgestalt (Jan 25, 2014)

honestly if someone is unable to make good photos or videos with any of todays cameras it´s not the cameras fault.


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## malmak (Jan 26, 2014)

Lichtgestalt said:


> honestly if someone is unable to make good photos or videos with any of todays cameras it´s not the cameras fault.


I don't think that this is the point. I can imagine pretty well that if you expect something to be of a certain quality and you don't get it you're disappointed. That's the part where he rented the 6D; it simply didn't meet his expectations. 
(Personally I understand his issue with the AF, but I never had the 6D for testing.)

What was coming next was a mixture between 'finding the reason' and 'finding a better solution'.

And I think that a mixture will solve his problem:

In general he should really check the bulbs, not just because of taking photos ...
My suggestion would be to buy some LED-bulbs which last much longer than the given example with 1200 hours.

Regarding the equipment I would not tend to buy the 5D-III but the 6D, just because he might want to have another lens later on. If not he's able to save some additional money and move to the 5D-III or a possible successor later on - if he then still thinks it is necessary.

I'd also agree not to have to different brands simply due to the missing interchangeability.


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## 9VIII (Jan 26, 2014)

strangelove said:


> Thanks to those of you that have tried to advise me here.
> 
> I'm surprised that so many of you say there isn't much difference between FF and crop. I rented a 6d to try and af may be um, lacking, but the IQ is absolutely superb. It blows the 70D out of the water on so many levels that are just as evident on screen as they are on paper.
> 
> ...



For a moment there I suspected that your post wasn't serious, the "get a camcorder" comment was moving along those lines.

Really the 5D3 is pretty much the only option here. If you want modern full frame ISO performance and more than center point AF on Canon you really only have two choices (the 1Dx or 5D3).

Also, a while ago I picked up some 2500lumen fluorescent lightbulbs, the kind that screw into a normal socket (apparently known as the "Edison" socket). They made a big difference in the amount of light in the room, and use less energy than incandescent bulbs.


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## jrista (Jan 26, 2014)

strangelove said:


> My wife commented, before she asked me why I was having such a tough time choosing a camera.
> 
> You see, I was a Nikon shooter for several years, and owned everything from a D70, all the way through to a d700. I finally jumped ship a couple of years ago and got a 5D mark III.
> 
> ...



Hi Strange,

Based on the little narrative about low light in the areas you shoot...I honestly don't think you could be served better by anything other than a 5D III, and even a 6D. A few reasons for that:

1. You mention you need to use ultra wide apertures with narrow DOF that is difficult to get your subjects in focus with. With both the 5D III and 6D, you don't need fast lenses. You can just jack up the ISO. The high ISO performance on both cameras is excellent, you could be living happy at ISO 1600 - ISO 6400 and not have any issues (especially on the 6D.)

2. The 5D III, even though it is a pricey $3300 (list, you can find it cheaper on sale), it has more than 5 or 6 extra cross-type points. It has five double precision double cross type points in the center column, but it has 41 cross type points in total! Now depending on which lenses you use, the actual number of cross type points available changes. So long as you use fast lenses (f/2.8 and faster), even if you stop down, you will have all 41 points at your disposal. _That is a difference of 40 cross type points in relation to the 6D._ 

If AF is important to you, and you feel that the 6D "sucked" for your personal needs, then the 5D III is WAY better than the 6D, hands down, no contest. It is also way better than any offering from Nikon. Nikon does have the 31pt and 51pt AF systems, but the AF points are tightly clustered in the center of the frame. The 5D III 61pt AF system has the widest AF point spread of any system on the market, which makes it a lot more effective.

3. Magic Lantern. With a 5D III, you have the option of installing ML and gaining even MORE performance at high ISO. Recently, Magic Lantern managed to extract another 1/2 stop high ISO improvement out of the 5D III. That makes ISO 6400 eminently usable, with over 9 stops of dynamic range. That puts it in a whole 'nother class when it comes to low light photography (and it seems clear, you do low light photography). With over 9 stops of DR, the 5D III + ML is in the same range as the 1D X, D4, D3s, etc. Cameras that cost thousands of dollars more.

Given your circumstances with low light, given that you usually use fast lenses, but could really stand to stop down a bit, given your AF needs, and given your prior experience with the 5D III, you really can't do better than getting another 5D III. You might be able to find a lightly used one for under the $3000 price point. Even if you don't go with Magic Lantern, the high ISO performance of the 5D III is so good, you will be able to live at ISO 1600-3200 with ease, which will solve your narrow DOF problem, and the 41 cross type points will certainly not cause you any compositional issues. 

Now, if you just can't bring yourself to buy the 5D III again, get a 6D. The 6D may "only" have "just one" cross type point in the center. That does not mean all the other 10 points are unusable. Cross type points are more precise, but single line points are still functional and can be quite effective. You will probably have to suffer slower AF performance...but it wouldn't be immensely slower, especially if you are using fast lenses with max apertures f/2.8 and wider. The 6D also offers even better native high ISO performance than the 5D III (it is almost as good as a 1D X or D4 strait out of the box), and better yet, ML's high ISO DR improvement will eventually come to the 6D as well. That means the 6D at ISO 6400 would offer over TEN STOPS OF DR! That puts it in an entirely new class of it's own for high ISO performance. With your low light issues, the 6D + ML (when it comes out) would be a POWERHOUSE, despite the less capable AF system.


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## Zv (Jan 26, 2014)

OP - what you need is one of these.

http://flashhavoc.com/yongnuo-yn12af-af-assistant/

Or buy a flash and fire it off camera, bounced into a corner for additional fill and direction. You can also use the 70D to track your kids movements using AI Servo mode. 

(Edit - Wait I just read the part about the flash being distracting for your baby (I thought it was a kid running around??) and also read J.R's response. He hit on a few good points. ) ???


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 26, 2014)

strangelove said:


> I guess my options are:
> 
> 1. Suck it up and drop $3300 on a semi-pro 5d, just to get say 5 or 6 more accurate cross-type points across the frame.
> 2. Stop being an AF namby pamby, and just man up, get a 6d, because "real men do it by hand anyway"!
> ...



Option 1A. You can get a refurb (1 year warranty) or a grey market one for a lot less.


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## JM Photography (Jan 27, 2014)

strangelove said:


> My issue, and question is simply that I'm blown away that I need to buy the same gear to shoot a few sharp pics of my son!



I think your wires might be a little crossed between wants and needs. You want high ISO performance, unmatched AF performance, access to Canon's plethora of lenses, ultra-sharp, thin DOF, beautiful images. Do you need them to take pictures of your kid? Nope. People make due with iPhones, Point and Shoots, Mirrorless, crop bodies, etc.

You want the features that the 5D3 offers. Very few people are fortunate to be in the situation to have these things. Are you willing to pay to have them? If so, you've already answered your question. Rebuy the 5D3.

This seems more a question about price than anything.


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## East Wind Photography (Jan 27, 2014)

Lichtgestalt said:


> honestly if someone is unable to make good photos or videos with any of todays cameras it´s not the cameras fault.



I agree with you on this. Ive used my 5diii with a 24-70 f2.8l to shoot portraits by campfire hand held. Certainly most people should be able to use even a rebel to shoot good shots of the family by even marginal interior lighting. What makes the high end cameras stand out is there ability to catch action such as sports (1dx) or catch portraits of brides and bridesmaids in Whisper quite mode (5diii). If you dont shoot in either of those environments you can do quite well with any newer canon body at f4 or faster.

Once you get a taste of Canon sweetness though its hard to go back. Seems like this is a case of sellers remorse.


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## Skilsaw (Feb 2, 2014)

Pictures of the kid are over rated anyway.
Use the money to buy a 60 inch TV, an armchair, and a small fridge to hold the beer.
Spend the rest of the money recklessly on frivolous niceties.


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## abcde12345 (Feb 13, 2014)

I use a 6D and I understand what you're saying. Honest reply? If you're into action, other than getting 5D MKIII, get a Nikon. Seriously. I didn't get one because I'm not huge into action (more into daily life photos, such as vacation trips, daily life events, which is something 6D might be better than D610). A D7100 will serve you better than a 6D. 6D are meant for people who are not into speedy things, proven by its good central AF point but yucky peripheral AF points. Otherwise, if you're reluctant to sell off your lenses, get a 7D perhaps. But otherwise, jump-ships. Nikon's middle range DSLR will blow Canon out anyday. Even the D610 is better than 6D in terms of overall usage: more AF, SD card slots, higher FPS... the list goes on. The reason why I'm saying this is I presume you are not willing to fork out that much dough, which in one sense is stupid too because if one is willing to put out that amount of dough, one does not need to care about the system anymore. Both Nikon and Canon are fantastic top-tier brands.


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## MovingViolations (Feb 13, 2014)

Personally I'd add room lighting as suggested earlier and then try the 6D again. I've used one and loved it. A relative uses a 6D for video of their little one with now problems at higher ISO's. The kid will not always be inside either. They do grow up and want the playground.... Daylight. There is not enough diff in price of a 6D and 70D that I'd buy a 70D. By the time the OP needs more FPS for a faster moving little one a refurb 1DX might be a very possible solution. You never know what they might choose in the way of school sports. Shoot for pay for the soccer moms with cell phones.


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## Rienzphotoz (Feb 13, 2014)

strangelove said:


> People are so funny when you combine the feeling that they're being personally attacked by virtue of someone not feeling as they do, with the false perception that public forums offer you anonymity.
> 
> I did edit my post, but only for a couple of minor grammar issues, I didn't add the part about selling the 5d.
> 
> ...


+1 ... I agree that some people resort to anything to cover up their mistakes, even if they have to hide behind mysterious fictional excuses ... your last edit was on January 25, 2014, 05:12:03 and the first reply from the gentleman(?) was a good 3 hours after you edited it (i.e. on January 25, 2014 at 08:18:52 AM) ... but the gentleman(?) still claims you edited it :  ... maybe he/she thinks you traveled back in time and edited it ;D
That aside, if I were in your shoes and want to continue with Canon, (I doubt I'd be happy with anything less than a 5D MKIII ... since you've already used it before and know what it is capable of) I'd suck it up and get the 5D MK III.

Cheers


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## Northstar (Feb 13, 2014)

Strange...what did you decide to do?


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## Grumbaki (Feb 13, 2014)

If you only see 5 extra AF points in the 5d3 then you must always compose very orthodoxly... All (cross arent always a necessity) AF points are a life saver for creative composition with moving (not sport but not still) scenes. Such an underrated point of the 5d3...


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