# Another Spec List for the Entry Level Full Frame EOS



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 25, 2012)

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<strong>An “entry level” Full Frame Camera


</strong>[<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_6d.html" target="_blank">NL</a>] has posted a spec list of the rumored “entry level” full frame camera that will be announced for Photokina. This camera would take the place currently held by the 5D Mark II. It’s fairly close to what <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/07/canons-next-full-frame-camera-cr2/" target="_blank">we have posted previously</a>.</p>
<p><strong>Specifications</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>Two different sensor specs received (thanks) for a ‘cheaper’ FF DSLR.</li>
<li>One suggests an 18MP sensor and the other 22MP</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Other features:</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>Design closer to 7D than 5D3 (smaller and with flash)</li>
<li>7D style AF system (19 pt) and VF LCD</li>
<li>7D metering</li>
<li>Single Digic 5+</li>
<li>3.9 fps</li>
<li>3 inch LCD</li>
<li>51200 max ISO</li>
<li>Below $2000 USD</li>
</ul>
<div><strong>Source: [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_6d.html" target="_blank">NL</a>]</strong></div>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## trygved (Jul 25, 2012)

Exactly the camera I'm waiting for.


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## marekjoz (Jul 25, 2012)

trygved said:


> Exactly the camera I'm waiting for.



Same me! If it's 5d2 with a new sensor and 7d's AF, I'm in!


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

Exactly as me.

I will be happy with 18 MPx or 22 MPx - enough for me.


Design - my friend borrowed me his 7D and this design and size suits me
AF system - surely, 7D-type AF is very capable and all possibilities of AF modes are great
7D metring - metring of 7D is on high level and would be a great upgrade from my 450D
FPS - Im not a sports shooter and 3.9 fps is enough for my style
3 inch LCD - it will definitely be better then my 450D so its a win
High ISO - if it will be usable at little above 6400, then its another win
Price - under 2000 USD is fair price if those specs are true

If this becomes true product, then Im fully in. AFMA and C1, C2, C3 would be really appreciated.


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## mememe (Jul 25, 2012)

18mp would be cool cause its the 1dx sensor.

I would buy it.


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## marekjoz (Jul 25, 2012)

mathino said:


> Exactly as me.
> 
> 
> If this becomes true product, then Im fully in. AFMA and C1, C2, C3 would be really appreciated.



No AFMA and Cs disqualifies this in blocks.


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

mememe said:


> 18mp would be cool cause its the 1dx sensor.
> 
> I would buy it.



I know that its probably too early for any assumptions *but*


*1D-X* - native ISO range: *100 - 51 200* 
*5D Mk III* - native ISO range: *100-25 600*
*rumored new FF* - native ISO range: *100-51 200*

It makes sense to re-use 1D-X sensor in feature-crippled/slower/more consumer oriented body.


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## bbasiaga (Jul 25, 2012)

That is really exciting. I'm looking for an upgrade to my 5D and/or 40D. The only thing I suspect is that the $2000 price tag will be more like $2500 at launch. 

-Brian


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## marekjoz (Jul 25, 2012)

bbasiaga said:


> That is really exciting. I'm looking for an upgrade to my 5D and/or 40D. The only thing I suspect is that the $2000 price tag will be more like $2500 at launch.
> 
> -Brian



...or ot will be plastic with rebels' case.


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## lola (Jul 25, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> trygved said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly the camera I'm waiting for.
> ...



Comparing the image quality of RAW files from 5D Mark II and 5D Mark III, "new sensor" means pretty much nothing! Basicly you're in for 4 year ago's image quality with 3 year ago's AF.

I'm sick and tired of Canon playing mix & match with yesterday's tech!


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

bbasiaga said:


> That is really exciting. I'm looking for an upgrade to my 5D and/or 40D. The only thing I suspect is that the $2000 price tag will be more like $2500 at launch.
> 
> -Brian



Well I see your point 

Unless...Canon decides to discontinue 5D Mk II, lower the price to sell remaining Mk II bodies and then sell "entry level FF" for about 2000 USD. They wont sell too much Mk II bodies when this FF will hit market (with body build like 7D).

So I can see 2 scenarios:

Canon discontinuing 5D Mk II and selling remaing for less, they will get those money on new bodies
5D Mk II not discontinued for a while and "new FF" for 2500 USD as you stated, then discontinuing 5D Mk II and lowering price for "new FF"

I hope for first scenario


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## M249 (Jul 25, 2012)

I just want a 5D Mark II with better screen (3:2, 1040k) and better AF, Digit 5 and a new sensor. The larger eyecup would also be a bonus. I'm wearing glasses.


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

lola said:


> marekjoz said:
> 
> 
> > trygved said:
> ...



We have seen a lot of comparisons between 5D Mk II and Mk III sensor. Sure, there is only a slight improvment in terms of high ISO in RAW. But I cant see too many out here complaining about it. There are improvements in other areas in 5D Mk III. The ultimate 2 things a lot of people complain about are: price and black illumination AF point. Price will go down in time and this AF point issue could be corrected via firmware.

But...for less than 2000 USD you expect 1D-X metring, 61-point AF, 8 fps (or more), new sensor ? Consumer (affordable) models are always about compromise. In time, pro features comes to consumer models...thats Canons habit I think.

...its the same like with cars: if you want luxury features, better (more powerful) engine - you pay for them. If you want latest and greatest - look for 1D-X or take a look at Nikon if they offer what you expect.


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## Stuart (Jul 25, 2012)

If its announced in PhotoKina then i hope stock is ready for just after Christmas.
News on Dynamic range seems light though - and canon does not seem to do so well there.


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## RC (Jul 25, 2012)

Come on Canon, get the specs nailed down and announced. I've got the FF bug and I'm ready to pull the trigger. If the specs are what's rumoured in this post and it has AFMA, I'm likely in. I do expect it to be $2500 and not $2000 ($2000 will be reserved for the new 7D). 

Otherwise, I'm back to the 5D3 but it's price needs to drop a little more to $3000 and I may have to sell something.


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## trygved (Jul 25, 2012)

lola said:


> marekjoz said:
> 
> 
> > trygved said:
> ...



But you've nailed it on the head. This camera is innovative, not because of the new tech, but because the combination of technology hits a sweet spot.

5D mkII provides the FF sensor with AF of a T2i.
7D provides killer AF but shares its sensor with a T2i.
Combine these flagship cameras of yesteryear and price it the same as 4 year old tech, and there lies its appeal.


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

All we need now...are photos of this "mysterious" FF. D600 images are "out" so why couldnt we have something like them ? ;D

...after "leak" of photos there will be 20 pages on that post ;D


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## RLPhoto (Jul 25, 2012)

I got my MK3 for 3,099$. Best deal ever. 8)

I might replace my 7D with this model possibly though.


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## FunPhotons (Jul 25, 2012)

I don't get it, what part of the market does this serve? If they were aggressive on pricing then I could see the FF wannabes buying (probably not a huge market?), but we know Canon won't be easy on the wallet.


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## marekjoz (Jul 25, 2012)

RLPhoto said:


> I got my MK3 for 3,099$. Best deal ever. 8)



How?


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## pakosouthpark (Jul 25, 2012)

RC said:


> Come on Canon, get the specs nailed down and announced. I've got the FF bug and I'm ready to pull the trigger. If the specs are what's rumoured in this post and it has AFMA, I'm likely in. I do expect it to be $2500 and not $2000 ($2000 will be reserved for the new 7D).
> 
> Otherwise, I'm back to the 5D3 but it's price needs to drop a little more to $3000 and I may have to sell something.



i've been waiting for this camera since the beginning of the year!! the 5d mk iii was an option but too expensive! now canon please announce and start selling it before autumn please!!


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## baronng (Jul 25, 2012)

Max 5D3 ISO is 102400 


mathino said:


> mememe said:
> 
> 
> > 18mp would be cool cause its the 1dx sensor.
> ...


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## Trovador (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm buying one! perfect complement to my 7D and L lenses.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2012)

lola said:


> marekjoz said:
> 
> 
> > trygved said:
> ...


How is it possible to have the newest tech and low price at the same time???


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

baronng said:


> Max 5D3 ISO is 102400
> 
> 
> mathino said:
> ...



Depends on what you assume is max ISO. In my assumption I get it as maximum native ISO - not H1 or H2.


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## Tymo93 (Jul 25, 2012)

Cool i'll probably buy it! Although I think people will rather buy this one over the 7D which means Canon loses on 7D


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

Tymo93 said:


> Cool i'll probably buy it! Although I think people will rather buy this one over the 7D which means Canon loses on 7D



No they do not lose  Depends on what you need. 7D has more reach, 7D is faster (8 fps) and can use EF-S lenses. My guess is that 7D Mk II will come with 22 or 24 MPx sensor, high fps and maybe dual Digic V.


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

Rocky said:


> lola said:
> 
> 
> > marekjoz said:
> ...



+1

Exaclty as I stated in my longer post on page 1


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## lola (Jul 25, 2012)

mathino said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > lola said:
> ...



Is this question for real?

A simple example would be the iPhone/iPad! Every generation is clearly superior over the previous yet the pricing stays the same! That's how!

If we're going to pay more each year for better tech, well, I guess a camera will cost $50.000 in 2020!


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## pakosouthpark (Jul 25, 2012)

lola said:


> mathino said:
> 
> 
> > Rocky said:
> ...



lol and that would be a point and shoot compact camera!


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## sleepnever (Jul 25, 2012)

Its interesting that the framerate is only 3.9fps with that Digic5+ (if any of these are true of course). I'd love to see at least 5.


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## ishdakuteb (Jul 25, 2012)

that is what i am talking about in another thread of new canon entry level full frame. if this rumors becomes true, i think canon will receive massive orders in the future. another thing is that canon must ensure that the build quality of body must match 7D.

ways to keep loyalty customers to stay with canon. imo, we do not need high megapixel like nikon d800, it is only good for people who takes pictures, crops them later...


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

sleepnever said:


> Its interesting that the framerate is only 3.9fps with that Digic5+ (if any of these are true of course). I'd love to see at least 5.



They could cripple it down to 3.9 fps or so. 5D Mk III fps is 6 so 5 will be too close. But it will be nice to have 5 fps.


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## marekjoz (Jul 25, 2012)

mathino said:


> sleepnever said:
> 
> 
> > Its interesting that the framerate is only 3.9fps with that Digic5+ (if any of these are true of course). I'd love to see at least 5.
> ...



It's one of parameters to be set by Canon rather than hardware restriction. They set it according to the marketing policy.


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## ishdakuteb (Jul 25, 2012)

mathino said:


> bbasiaga said:
> 
> 
> > That is really exciting. I'm looking for an upgrade to my 5D and/or 40D. The only thing I suspect is that the $2000 price tag will be more like $2500 at launch.
> ...



this is what i guess... manufacturing costs of overhead would be larger for canon to keep 5D Mark II in production; therefore, it will probably be discontinued for new entry level full frame coming in. however, it still depends on new entry level full frame real specs and its quality comparing to 5D Mark II.


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## setrio (Jul 25, 2012)

I want this camera now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Waiting for a new cheap FF for a while now,....


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

ishdakuteb said:


> this is what i guess... manufacturing costs of overhead would be larger for canon to keep 5D Mark II in production; therefore, it will probably be discontinued for new entry level full frame coming in. however, it still depends on new entry level full frame real specs and its quality comparing to 5D Mark II.



Yes and this is why discontinuing 5D Mk II makes sense to me. I think that it was Canons cash cow for a long period of time - now its time to introduce something new that will take Mk IIs place. Seems like a win for Canon and also for us users (if body build quality is the same, better AF - 7D-like and other specs mentioned becomes true).

I can imagine that it could have build in flash, external flash controll (like 7D) or build-in RT transmitter (this could force users to start thinking about 600EX-RT)...but...only my speculations for now.

We have to wait couple of weeks longer. Im sure that something new will surface in 2-3 weeks


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## RLPhoto (Jul 25, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I got my MK3 for 3,099$. Best deal ever. 8)
> ...



Evil Bay. 8)


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

setrio said:


> I want this camera now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Waiting for a new cheap FF for a while now,....



I want it too ;D A lot of us do (at least I think ;D )

...but you know, camera is not even announced yet and there are already complains about "old" tech used and high price (compared to rumored D600 price) and not enough "speced" (in comparison to D600 again).

If rumored specs about this - lets say 6D - becomes true product with AFMA, C1, C2, C3 and <= 2000 USD price - Im fully in and I wont complain 

Anyway I still like my 450D. Yes it has 4 years old tech inside (or even older), but I like it and can use it up to its limits to get most out of it


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## pakosouthpark (Jul 25, 2012)

mathino said:


> setrio said:
> 
> 
> > I want this camera now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Waiting for a new cheap FF for a while now,....
> ...





setrio said:


> I want this camera now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Waiting for a new cheap FF for a while now,....



seems like a lot of people want this camera, canon you can't go wrong on this one now!


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

pakosouthpark said:


> seems like a lot of people want this camera, canon you can't go wrong on this one now!



I agree, they cant go wrong  A lot of 5Dc, xxD, xxxD, xxxxD users would be teased by this FF (sooner or later). 

But success of this camera will depend on price. If it will be set properly then it could take 5D Mk II place among Canon-ists (especially with 5D Mk III price above 3000 USD) and ofc as Canons cash cow (as 5D Mk II currently is). So it could be a WIN for both sides, Canon and users.


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## lola (Jul 25, 2012)

ishdakuteb said:


> imo, we do not need high megapixel like nikon d800, it is only good for people who takes pictures, crops them later...



This forum's getting more fun and fun everyday!


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

lola said:


> ishdakuteb said:
> 
> 
> > imo, we do not need high megapixel like nikon d800, it is only good for people who takes pictures, crops them later...
> ...



Indeed ;D Where aro those countless and endless discussions about 5D Mk III not on par with D800 ?

...but, Im sure Canon will announce high MPx body. Maybe even 45 or 47 MPx. This camera will be announced when it will be ready - my guess is that it is still under development. Maybe its a wise decision to announce it after D800, check all possible configurations, tweak it and bring another succesful product 8)


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## Stewbyyy (Jul 25, 2012)

This has me very excited, but a little worried at the same time.


Without a doubt this will be my next camera, I've held off on getting the 5D Mark II because I don't want to risk it with the AF system for shooting gigs. I stupidly bought into the 60D years ago and am now stuck with a bunch of SD cards, it'd be amazing (for me) if this new FF camera used SD cards but I have a feeling it won't.


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

Stewbyyy said:


> This has me very excited, but a little worried at the same time.
> 
> 
> Without a doubt this will be my next camera, I've held off on getting the 5D Mark II because I don't want to risk it with the AF system for shooting gigs. I stupidly bought into the 60D years ago and am now stuck with a bunch of SD cards, it'd be amazing (for me) if this new FF camera used SD cards but I have a feeling it won't.



So you are exactly like me, Ive held off on getting Mk II because of AF. Im shooting a lot of gigs and DJs/club stuff - so 7D-like AF would be really helpful. This new FF seems like a good "walkaround" camera for me.

Well, there are CF-SD adapters - so nothing to worry about. You can find adapter on ebay for around 18 USD. As a 450D user Ive got 2x 8GB SD and one 16 GB microSD, so a lot of space - I can see your point.

EDIT - ofc, CF card are faster then SD cards, so if you want to shoot in RAW and in burst mode - with such adapter your card will limit you in terms of speed (mb/s). With 600x CF card you get a lot faster speed then with any SD (fastest SD - class 10 - 10 mb, CF UDMA 6 - 133 mb).


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## drjlo (Jul 25, 2012)

mathino said:


> sleepnever said:
> 
> 
> > Its interesting that the framerate is only 3.9fps with that Digic5+ (if any of these are true of course). I'd love to see at least 5.
> ...



It would be so cool if adding a battery grip "unlocks" the new FF camera to say 6 FPS 8)


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## Marine03 (Jul 25, 2012)

I to have several 16gig SD cards for my 450D I like that most computers and even my iPad has an SD adapter. I've had 1 card go bad in like 5 years. So not sure why people hate them other than CF being so much more expensive. 

As for this camera I hope for closer to 5FPS but basically plan on this being my next body.


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## marekjoz (Jul 25, 2012)

drjlo said:


> mathino said:
> 
> 
> > sleepnever said:
> ...



+600EX RT = +1 step ISO up
+EF with F<1.4 or focal > 300 = +1 DR
+WFT + all above= +100% movie fps etc....


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

Marine03 said:


> I to have several 16gig SD cards for my 450D I like that most computers and even my iPad has an SD adapter. I've had 1 card go bad in like 5 years. So not sure why people hate them other than CF being so much more expensive.
> 
> As for this camera I hope for closer to 5FPS but basically plan on this being my next body.



As Ive written before, there are adapters CF-SD, that could take our SD cards. Ive just watched some video on youtube of a guy doing a review of this kind of adapter on 7D. Sure, its much slower then 600x CF cards, but for stills its great. I havent got any problems with my SD cards. Ive been using one 4GB since Ive gotten my DSLR - I replaced it because I broke it accidentaly ;D

CFs are more expensive because they are faster (faster transfer rates) - thats why they are ideal for shooting FHD video.


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

drjlo said:


> mathino said:
> 
> 
> > sleepnever said:
> ...



Could be a welcome feature - but I doubt it. I guess such a grip would cost above 350 USD.


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## norcalniner (Jul 25, 2012)

I would be in.. But the build quality would at least be on par with the 7d. A main reason I have upgraded from my rebel was because of the plastic build. I know the rumor before was that it may be a bit more plasticky.. In which case I'll continue to save for the 5dmkIII.


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## NotABunny (Jul 25, 2012)

baronng said:


> Max 5D3 ISO is 102400



Rumors (and announcements) so far have used the maximum analog ISO, not the digital "High mode" value (because that's not actually an ISO; it's still the maximum analog ISO but underexposed and pulled up in post).


Having a 51200 maximum makes me think that they will use the sensor design from 1DX. If the official price will be 2000 USD, I'm interested again.


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## takoman46 (Jul 25, 2012)

NotABunny said:


> baronng said:
> 
> 
> > Max 5D3 ISO is 102400
> ...



I think "maximum" is defined as expanded and not native ISO, as in "H1" and "H2". There is not way that a cheaper FF body will have a better native ISO range than the 5D3. Instead, it will probably be ISO 100-12800 native w/ H1-25600 and H2 - 51200.


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## dogstardigital (Jul 25, 2012)

I love this concept, and have been waiting for an under $2k FF for a while. Being vested in Canon with a 40D and 4 lenses, I needed to up my image quality and my least expensive option in FF was the 5DII. I think the sensor delivers, but found the AF was terrible when I was shooting action (i.e. Roller Derby or Musicians in a badly lit venue). I find the only things I would change about the 5DII are to give it better AF & drop the video function. Granted, the video is a nice touch, but as a PHOTOgrapher, I have no functional need for it. I hope they take the 5D build and remove some bells & whistles and make it into a good, responsive FF still camera. I'm not at the point in my career to be shelling out the money they ask for the FF's currently on the market containing bells & whistles like video, but could really use another body to compliment the one I have. As for frame rate, to me the 5D line is/was a portrait/landscape/studio camera, and the 3.9 frame rate is quite ample. Lastly, a 5D revamp vs. the 7D would allow for CF use OR adapted SD use and possibly prompt sales of speedlights. The 7D build would theoretically stick you with only the SD option.


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## tomsop (Jul 25, 2012)

I am confused - some are speculating the cost will be $2500. Mark III is now selling for $150 less than MSRP. If you are already shelling out $2500 bucks, wouldn't the marginal dollar difference work towards just getting the Mark III now and not having to wait half a year for a stripped down full frame?

I have an old Rebal Xsi and happened on this site when I wanted to learn more about my upgrade options. I have waited for several months and I prefer to stay under $1K. I am not happy with the t4i but still waiting to see how the mirrorless camera shoots video. 

On the other hand, I am thinking of getting a man purse and just going with the EOS-M.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 25, 2012)

drjlo said:


> It would be so cool if adding a battery grip "unlocks" the new FF camera to say 6 FPS 8)



Smells like Nikon to me...


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## libertyranger (Jul 25, 2012)

If this camera has the same 18mp sensor as the 1DX, would the image quality be the same? Or does the dual processor in the 1DX make for a better image? I'm curious about RAW performance here. If it is the same sensor as the 1DX and the IQ is the same, then would this new full frame have better IQ than the new 5D. 

I am currently saving for the 5D Mk. III, however, I would gladly get this if the IQ is similar. I mainly do portrait photography and would be happy with the AF system described here among the other rumored specs.


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## EOBeav (Jul 25, 2012)

If this is the camera you're looking for, why not just pick up a 5DmkII right now?


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

NotABunny said:


> baronng said:
> 
> 
> > Max 5D3 ISO is 102400
> ...



Exactly as I think  Max ISO was always used as max native ISO so basicly max analog ISO. Expanded ISOs are only digital tweaks.

If this comes true - 18 MPx sensor from 1D-X - then Im even more interested.

...and giving customers same sensor in lower end body doesnt mean it would cut out sales of 5D Mk III or 1D-X. It would be a consumer FF with less features (little crippled). Those cameras are completly different segment. And maybe a pro with 1D-X or 5D Mk III would buy one "6D" as a cheaper backup.


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## bbasiaga (Jul 25, 2012)

tomsop said:


> I am confused - some are speculating the cost will be $2500. Mark III is now selling for $150 less than MSRP. If you are already shelling out $2500 bucks, wouldn't the marginal dollar difference work towards just getting the Mark III now and not having to wait half a year for a stripped down full frame?
> 
> I have an old Rebal Xsi and happened on this site when I wanted to learn more about my upgrade options. I have waited for several months and I prefer to stay under $1K. I am not happy with the t4i but still waiting to see how the mirrorless camera shoots video.
> 
> On the other hand, I am thinking of getting a man purse and just going with the EOS-M.



I think I started the $2500 thing - here is my thinking. It would seem unlikely that Canon would sell a 'better' camera than the 5dMKII for less money. We haven't seen any direct successors coming out cheaper than their replacements in quite a while. So, they could further drop the price of the MKII to take that price slot over and therefore allow the successor to come in at the same price point. Or, they could reduce the spec of the camera in a meaningful way to make the new price point make sense (plastic body?...what else could give?). Or, they could introdue a slightly better successor at a higher price, say $2500. 

I'm purely speculating that the spec list shown seems too good to be true at $2000. So in my hypothesis either the price is higher or there is something else that must give in the overall package to hit the price point. Pure speculation. I actually hope I'm wrong. $2000 I can swing as a hobbyist (I've been saving for 3 years). Much more and I'll have to wait until its used for that price. 

-Brian


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 25, 2012)

libertyranger said:


> If this camera has the same 18mp sensor as the 1DX, would the image quality be the same? Or does the dual processor in the 1DX make for a better image? I'm curious about RAW performance here. If it is the same sensor as the 1DX and the IQ is the same, then would this new full frame have better IQ than the new 5D.



The processor does not (should not, at any rate) affect RAW IQ. But, that doesn't mean they'll have the same IQ. Firmware does play a role in RAW IQ, and Canon _could_ handicap a new FF camera with the 1D X's sensor in some way (not that I'm cynically suggesting that). One example, the spec list says the sensor may be 18 MP and the max ISO is 51200, which is two stops shy of where the 1D X goes.


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> The processor does not (should not, at any rate) affect RAW IQ. But, that doesn't mean they'll have the same IQ. Firmware does play a role in RAW IQ, and Canon _could_ handicap a new FF camera with the 1D X's sensor in some way (not that I'm cynically suggesting that). One example, the spec list says the sensor may be 18 MP and the max ISO is 51200, which is two stops shy of where the 1D X goes.



Agree, firmware play a role in RAW output - so they could cripple it down a bit (which also seems quiet plausible).

...in terms of max ISO, depends on how we read max ISO. It could be max native (analog) ISO or max boosted ISO (like H2 setting).

Well, as Yoda stated in SW: "The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is." We need to wait, something else (info) will surface in 2-3 weeks


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## ashmadux (Jul 25, 2012)

I DO NOT want the 7d's crap AF system. Instead of shooting with my 7d, its been a glorified paperweight for 6 months. Been back to canon 3 times. Refuses to consistently focus. That system sucks.

the 7d has a great form, and is a joy to use, but those high noise images and af trials have me ready to trade it in.


----------



## RLPhoto (Jul 25, 2012)

ashmadux said:


> I DO NOT want the 7d's crap AF system. Instead of shooting with my 7d, its been a glorified paperweight for 6 months. Been back to canon 3 times. Refuses to consistently focus. That system sucks.
> 
> the 7d has a great form, and is a joy to use, but those high noise images and af trials have me ready to trade it in.



I lol'd when you said the 7D's AF was terrible. The 7D's AF is the bee's knees. 8)


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## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

ashmadux said:


> I DO NOT want the 7d's crap AF system. Instead of shooting with my 7d, its been a glorified paperweight for 6 months. Been back to canon 3 times. Refuses to consistently focus. That system sucks.
> 
> the 7d has a great form, and is a joy to use, but those high noise images and af trials have me ready to trade it in.



I borrowed 7D from my friend and it had no problems with AF - always spot on. Ive used 70-200 f/4 L, 85 f/1.8 USM and 10-22 on it and no problem with any lens. Ive shot couple of wedding photos for friend of our family - they were pleased and they printed my photos (he told that my photos were beter then from official photog - well photog was shooting with flash, some sort of Nikkor DX zoom and D200). I havent done AFMA because I had it only for weekend, but Im sure it could be even more precise. But that depends on body...I guess.


----------



## libertyranger (Jul 25, 2012)

neuroanatomist said:


> libertyranger said:
> 
> 
> > If this camera has the same 18mp sensor as the 1DX, would the image quality be the same? Or does the dual processor in the 1DX make for a better image? I'm curious about RAW performance here. If it is the same sensor as the 1DX and the IQ is the same, then would this new full frame have better IQ than the new 5D.
> ...



Thanks for replying. In the case of the capped ISO, would the ISO range of 100-51,2000 be the same as the 1DX's ISO 100-51,200 range? Or would they scale the Image quality toward 51,200 on this new full frame to be the same as the 1DX's 200k. I suppose this is all speculation. However, it would be nice to see the same physical sensor in this new body, even if it has a lowered max ISO.


----------



## mathino (Jul 25, 2012)

libertyranger said:


> Thanks for replying. In the case of the capped ISO, would the ISO range of 100-51,2000 be the same as the 1DX's ISO 100-51,200 range? Or would they scale the Image quality toward 51,200 on this new full frame to be the same as the 1DX's 200k. I suppose this is all speculation. However, it would be nice to see the same physical sensor in this new body, even if it has a lowered max ISO.



Well, Ive quickly found a youtube video with info about native ISO.

http://youtu.be/wUahw9kGUeQ

You can check it. Its about video shooting but it gives a little light about it.

For photography native range is for example 100-51 200 - higher (or lower) means that its amplified by camera itself, its not in the analog range of sensor.


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## RC (Jul 26, 2012)

ashmadux said:


> I DO NOT want the 7d's crap AF system. Instead of shooting with my 7d, its been a glorified paperweight for 6 months. Been back to canon 3 times. Refuses to consistently focus. That system sucks.
> 
> the 7d has a great form, and is a joy to use, but those high noise images and af trials have me ready to trade it in.



Sounds like you had a lemon. I would be thrilled with a lower cost FF with the 7D's AF (assuming the other specs meet my needs of course). Being a current 7D owner, it sure would make it smooth going back and forth between bodies.


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## bdunbar79 (Jul 26, 2012)

ashmadux said:


> I DO NOT want the 7d's crap AF system. Instead of shooting with my 7d, its been a glorified paperweight for 6 months. Been back to canon 3 times. Refuses to consistently focus. That system sucks.
> 
> the 7d has a great form, and is a joy to use, but those high noise images and af trials have me ready to trade it in.



Wait wait wait wait wait wait. 7D crap AF system? Then you mention high noise images? Well, I hope you are not linking the AF system with high noise images? The AF system is spectactular on the 7D. High ISO is not. The two are not related.


----------



## tbisu (Jul 26, 2012)

ashmadux said:


> I DO NOT want the 7d's crap AF system. Instead of shooting with my 7d, its been a glorified paperweight for 6 months. Been back to canon 3 times. Refuses to consistently focus. That system sucks.
> 
> the 7d has a great form, and is a joy to use, but those high noise images and af trials have me ready to trade it in.



Unfortunately our experience has been the same. 2-3 out of 10 images sharp and in focus where they should be. Sent in to Canon in January, and still the same problems when we got it back. Just sent it in for the second time.

This entry level FF is looking better by the day...assuming Canon can retain us as a customer.


----------



## Videoshooter (Jul 26, 2012)

bbasiaga said:


> I think I started the $2500 thing - here is my thinking. It would seem unlikely that Canon would sell a 'better' camera than the 5dMKII for less money. We haven't seen any direct successors coming out cheaper than their replacements in quite a while.



Well, this camera would not be the direct successor to the 5dmkII, so it is entirely feasible that it would come out at a lower price. 

The one thing I think would be missing on a cheap FF at this price point is build quality - it would still be good, but not at the same level as the 7D. After all, not even the 5dmkII has the same weather sealing as the 7D. 

I'd be perfectly happy with a 1Dx sensor in a body with 60D build quality, if it came in under $2000.


----------



## libertyranger (Jul 26, 2012)

Videoshooter said:


> bbasiaga said:
> 
> 
> > I think I started the $2500 thing - here is my thinking. It would seem unlikely that Canon would sell a 'better' camera than the 5dMKII for less money. We haven't seen any direct successors coming out cheaper than their replacements in quite a while.
> ...



Yep, I'll take that beastly sensor from the 1DX, even if the max ISO is neutered


----------



## stipotle (Jul 26, 2012)

libertyranger said:


> Videoshooter said:
> 
> 
> > bbasiaga said:
> ...



+1000 
please please please.


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## bbasiaga (Jul 26, 2012)

Videoshooter said:


> I'd be perfectly happy with a 1Dx sensor in a body with 60D build quality, if it came in under $2000.



That would be the best case for me too. I hear folks speculate on Rebel type build...not sure I'd want that. I'm too spoiled by the controls of the xD and xxD series. 

-Brian


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## kennephoto (Jul 26, 2012)

Heres my question. I really want to get into full frame do I buy a 5d2 now before they are gone because its a great camera or wait for this potential new entry full frame. I shoot everything, and currently I make my 50 and 40d work but I just really want to have a full frame digital! I wonder how the new entry full frame will compare to the 5d2.


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## Aglet (Jul 26, 2012)

Let's be wishing for a $1500-1700 new FF with the 7D's AF system.
We may as well dream farther in the desirable direction considering price point rumor of D600 is lower.

As for the 7D's AF system, I had trouble with mine too, but it wasn't the camera or 100-400mm L lens, it coulda been me, thinking the group of AF points/expansion would work better for tracking small fast objects. NOPE!
Now using spot AF with almost 100% hit rate even with that long slow lens. Still use expansion mode for tracking larger subjects.
Play with it and practice, read the manual. Unless there's a hardware problem, the AF on this thing is pretty darn good. I've started catching insects in flight at times now, If I can keep the AF point on them (dang zig-zaggin' dragonflies!). Haven't tried any of my Nik's yet to see if they can AF this well, but I got them for landscapin.'


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## mathino (Jul 26, 2012)

kennephoto said:


> Heres my question. I really want to get into full frame do I buy a 5d2 now before they are gone because its a great camera or wait for this potential new entry full frame. I shoot everything, and currently I make my 50 and 40d work but I just really want to have a full frame digital! I wonder how the new entry full frame will compare to the 5d2.



Hi,

in your case I would wait a little longer to see if new FF will meet your needs (in terms of specs and build). Im sure that even after announcement 5D Mk II will be available for some time. You should take a look at some lens as well, you have only one EF lens (unless you want to keep them with 40D or 50D) for future FF.


----------



## kennephoto (Jul 26, 2012)

Mathino thanks for your input, I do hope the 5d2s will be around for a while even if this next FF will be a few months from shipping after announcement. I plan to buy the new FF as a kit or the 5d2 as a kit. And I am very open to selling my efs lenses, but we will see since I plan on keeping my 50d for backup.


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## mathino (Jul 26, 2012)

kennephoto said:


> Mathino thanks for your input, I do hope the 5d2s will be around for a while even if this next FF will be a few months from shipping after announcement. I plan to buy the new FF as a kit or the 5d2 as a kit. And I am very open to selling my efs lenses, but we will see since I plan on keeping my 50d for backup.



Heh, same situation  I want to move to FF, can hold off (no rush for now) so I can check rumored new FF and decide. Ive got only EF lenses (except 18-55) so I wont need to buy/sell any of my lenses  24-105 f/4L IS is a good lens for FF.

5D Mk IIs wont just disappear after announcement of new product (after Canon discontinuing it) - they could be in stock at various retailers/sellers. And new FF could be delayed after announcement - even months (see 1D-X for example). Canon needs to sell all produced 5D Mk IIs.


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## kennephoto (Jul 26, 2012)

I don't have a problem buying and selling lenses I do it all the time. And I guess I didn't know if the 5d2 was discontinued or not after the 5d3 came out, I never really paid attention to that. I just hope the new FF isn't gonna be less features or performance in some areas of the 5d2 and better in others. I guess time will tell.


----------



## mathino (Jul 26, 2012)

kennephoto said:


> I don't have a problem buying and selling lenses I do it all the time. And I guess I didn't know if the 5d2 was discontinued or not after the 5d3 came out, I never really paid attention to that. I just hope the new FF isn't gonna be less features or performance in some areas of the 5d2 and better in others. I guess time will tell.



My hopes are for latest (original post) specs for it. With design (and build) close to 7D, 7D AF and metring and remodelled 1D-X or 5D Mk III sensor - Im fully in. We have to wait a little longer. I guess that in 2-3 weeks we will know more


----------



## Daniel Flather (Jul 26, 2012)

M249 said:


> I just want a 5D Mark II with better screen (3:2, 1040k) and better AF, Digit 5 and a new sensor. The larger eyecup would also be a bonus. I'm wearing glasses.


 

5D3 perhaps?


----------



## M249 (Jul 26, 2012)

Daniel Flather said:


> M249 said:
> 
> 
> > I just want a 5D Mark II with better screen (3:2, 1040k) and better AF, Digit 5 and a new sensor. The larger eyecup would also be a bonus. I'm wearing glasses.
> ...



My budget is 2500 €. In Sweden 5D Mark 3 costs 3800 €.


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## mathino (Jul 26, 2012)

> My budget is 2500 €. In Sweden 5D Mark 3 costs 3800 €.



Here in Slovakia 5D Mk II costs about 1919 € (some time ago one official Canon seller had it for 1787€). Mk IIIs are priced at 3099 € for body only. Ive heard that northern European countries have sick prices. I think 3099 € for Mk III is sick price (compared to US price), but I remember Mk II was priced similarly.

You have 3 options:

buy 5D Mk II now
wait for entry FF to see how it is in terms of specs and price. Then decide between - new FF and 5D Mk II
save money for 5D Mk III (price will go down in time)

All depends on how long you can wait


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## Marine03 (Jul 26, 2012)

mathino said:


> kennephoto said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have a problem buying and selling lenses I do it all the time. And I guess I didn't know if the 5d2 was discontinued or not after the 5d3 came out, I never really paid attention to that. I just hope the new FF isn't gonna be less features or performance in some areas of the 5d2 and better in others. I guess time will tell.
> ...



Weird thing is I'm really excited and look everyday for rumors because I want to upgrade so badly but currently only have a few hundred saved away. But once something is announced I can officially start saving money from weddings and lock my sights on a real object. I'm aiming for this time Next year to be able to afford a new body. Now I just also need a few grand worth of glass.


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## mathino (Jul 26, 2012)

Marine03 said:


> Weird thing is I'm really excited and look everyday for rumors because I want to upgrade so badly but currently only have a few hundred saved away. But once something is announced I can officially start saving money from weddings and lock my sights on a real object. I'm aiming for this time Next year to be able to afford a new body. Now I just also need a few grand worth of glass.



Same as me ;D Im checking rumors frequently to find out some info about this kind of body. With EOS M rumors and announcement all chatter about entry FF stopped. Im glad that only for a while.

Ive already saved for such body - I can wait and check all info, previews and everything. Ive started thinking about going to Cologne and visiting Canons booth at Photokina - could be a nice trip


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## M249 (Jul 26, 2012)

mathino said:


> > My budget is 2500 €. In Sweden 5D Mark 3 costs 3800 €.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, these options are exactly what I'm looking at. 
I have waited for almost 4 years now (sep 2008). I skipped the 5D Mark II and kept my original 5D.


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## samirachiko (Jul 26, 2012)

My wish specs:

-flash bult-in

-SWIVEL SCREEN (I don't understand some "stupid" words like "without a swivel screen is more solid......". OBVIOUSLY if you use your reflex like a toy is very easy to break it!... So who don't want a swivel screen can think at the same time that also with a flash built-in is less "solid".... A swivel green is FANTASTIC. You don't like it? Simple: don't use it!! 

-CF card

-time lapse in camera

-continuos AF for video like the 650D

With these features I'll buy it immediately! ;D


----------



## mathino (Jul 26, 2012)

> -SWIVEL SCREEN (I don't understand some "stupid" words like "without a swivel screen is more solid......". OBVIOUSLY if you use your reflex like a toy is very easy to break it!... So who don't want a swivel screen can think at the same time that also with a flash built-in is less "solid".... A swivel green is FANTASTIC. You don't like it? Simple: don't use it!!



Well, according to original post design should be closer to 7D - so my personal assumption is no swivel screen. Reason why 7D has not swivel screen is weathersealing. I would rather have sealed body (to some degree) than swivel screen. Sure, for video and awkward angles swivel screen is useful 



> -flash bult-in



Built-in flash with possibility of controlling speedlights would be welcome feature 



> -CF card



Im OK with SDs. Ive got plenty of storage in them. 



> -continuos AF for video like the 650D



...and that would mean completly new sensor. I doubt that Canon would develop sensor especially for this camera - marked as entry FF. Unless Canon could somehow trick Mk IIIs sensor to do it.

After reading zour post/wishlist I think that maybe 60D successor will be aimed more towards you  But we will see soon, I guess 8)


----------



## mathino (Jul 26, 2012)

M249 said:


> Yes, these options are exactly what I'm looking at.
> I have waited for almost 4 years now (sep 2008). I skipped the 5D Mark II and kept my original 5D.



Well, Ive been looking at 7D and 5D Mk II. Each body has somethnig I want (AF - 7D and FF/high ISO - 5D Mk II). I can buy only one.

After 5D Mk III announcement I was excited to see all those new tweaks and improvements (AF, new AFMA, fps, ...). I even thought about getting 5Dc now and 5D Mk III after some time (when price drops and when I have saved enough). But as an enthusiast, not a pro, 5D Mk III would not earn for itself.

So, IF rumors are true, then this new FF could be ideal for me. I dont need high fps, but need reliable AF, good high ISO (at least something over 6400), better build and better metring then 450D (7D-like build would be nice).


----------



## Marsu42 (Jul 27, 2012)

mathino said:


> wait for entry FF to see how it is in terms of specs and price. Then decide between - new FF and 5D Mk II



But be quick, because once the 5d2 is discontinued, the new ff is out and proves to be inferior, the last 5d2 models will be sold for hilarious prices like the 24-70 mk1 now. I'm sure they're not producing 5d2 bodies to stockpile right now, so supply is limited.



mathino said:


> Reason why 7D has not swivel screen is weathersealing.



Source? The 7d was released before Canon had *any* bodies with swivel screen, so the reason might be completely different.



mathino said:


> So, IF rumors are true, then this new FF could be ideal for me.



Which means the rumors probably aren't true  ... Canon will make sure to engineer enough differences into the 6d to make the 5d3 still attractive, imho they aren't that desperate to cannibalize the 5d3 yet. And just some less af points (but plenty for normal shooting) and a few less fps won't do the trick, esp. if the 6d has more features like built-in flash and - yes - a swivel screen.


----------



## Otter (Jul 27, 2012)

mathino said:


> mememe said:
> 
> 
> > 18mp would be cool cause its the 1dx sensor.
> ...



Even if it has a 1DX sensor, which I don't think it will, I highly doubt it would outperform the MKIII in any category. I can't imagine it having better ISO or dynamic range, at least if they want to sell MKIII's.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 27, 2012)

Canon may make the entry level FF to be NO video cappability. Then it will really distinguish it from any other FF.


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## hmmm (Jul 27, 2012)

*5D mkII vs. This Spec List*


The Spec List wins hand down over the 5DmkII on everything except that the sensors are more or less equivalent in RAW performance. (See the D4 -- D1X comparison story here at CR to see that the 18mp FF sensor is nice, but no DR champion in pulling up shadows cleanly. So whichever sensor it is, the same weakness exists.)

Other important specs are not included for the new guy: afma? Yes for MkII. CF card? Yes for MKII. 

A big +1 to implementing an intervalometer / time lapse. Nikon has had it for a while... Come on already... Obviously not on the MkII ... probably not on the new guy either, alas. (But the D600? -- yes, included in rumored spec.) 

I doubt the new camera will kit with the 24-105. A 28-135 mkII, perhaps? Advantage 5D MkII in that case. 

With the D600 selling for 2k, maybe under $2k -- maybe $2k with the new 24-85 as a kit lens -- the "7DmkII" can't be too crazy on price. That competition thing. So I find the $2k for body only for the NewCam believable.

The mkII is selling now for 2069, 2699 with the 24-105. Bottom line is that a mkII closeout would have to be a bit cheaper yet, I think, to warrant snagging one over waiting for the camera that will embody the New Spec List. Unless you need a new camera now. Decisions, decisions, waiting, not waiting...


----------



## Daniel Flather (Jul 27, 2012)

M249 said:


> Daniel Flather said:
> 
> 
> > M249 said:
> ...



I was not aware of your budget, and 3800 euros for a $3499 CAD camera is nuts.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jul 27, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Canon may make the entry level FF to be NO video cappability. Then it will really distinguish it from any other FF.



As long as this means that there is a weaker aa filter than on the 5d3 = sharper pictures: Go ahead, Canon! But realistically, I don't think they'd cut video completely since this is one of the areas Canon has the edge in - and a body with swivel screen but w/o video sounds a bit strange.


----------



## steliosk (Jul 28, 2012)

swivel screen is a must!

can't do video without it
and its a tool for low angle shots


want some better sealing go buy 5D3 or 7D


----------



## samirachiko (Jul 28, 2012)

steliosk said:


> swivel screen is a must!
> 
> can't do video without it
> and its a tool for low angle shots
> ...



TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU! ! ! !


----------



## mathino (Jul 28, 2012)

steliosk said:


> swivel screen is a must!
> 
> can't do video without it
> and its a tool for low angle shots
> ...



...same one can say with swivel screen. If you want one - buy 60D (or wait for successor) or 650D  You wont get sealing, magnesium alloy body...but will have swively thing.

Different people - different wishes/expectations  IF rumors are true and this body will come for Photokina I think that Canon has already decided about how it will look and what specs it will have.


----------



## RC (Jul 28, 2012)

mathino said:


> steliosk said:
> 
> 
> > swivel screen is a must!
> ...



Yip NO "swively thingy" for me, it could be a deal breaker--I want mag alloy and weather sealing. I think it is pretty clear that Canon will not add a flip screen to metal WS bodies. Canon, these are still "still" cameras first, video is secondary. And don't turn it into a FF 60D (no offense 60D users) with plastic, swivel screen, and no AFMA? Unfortunately, I do think the new "entry" FF will be plastic, and with swivel screen, but not sure about no AFMA.


----------



## M249 (Jul 28, 2012)

RC said:


> mathino said:
> 
> 
> > steliosk said:
> ...



+1


----------



## mathino (Jul 28, 2012)

RC said:


> Yip NO "swively thingy" for me, it could be a deal breaker--I want mag alloy and weather sealing. I think it is pretty clear that Canon will not add a flip screen to metal WS bodies. Canon, these are still "still" cameras first, video is secondary. And don't turn it into a FF 60D (no offense 60D users) with plastic, swivel screen, and no AFMA? Unfortunately, I do think the new "entry" FF will be plastic, and with swivel screen, but not sure about no AFMA.



I think you are not the only one who thinks it could be a deal breaker - I mean no mag-alloy body with some partial sealing (like 50D). In OP there was info/rumor - *design closer to 7D than 5D3 (smaller and with flash)* - so from this info I assume 7D-like body, so without flip-swivel-rotating screen.

As for now Canon does not implement flip screen into thougher and (at least partially) sealed bodies (1D, 7D and 5D series).

I think that 70D gets swivel screen with touch, new sensor with phase AF, 6-8 fps (depends on how 7D Mk II specs would be like) and better AF (probably from 7D). 7D Mk II could have same sensor as 70D with 61-point AF, 10 fps, mag-alloy body with fixed screen.

From _my point of view_, Canon:

needs true replacement for 5D Mk II as FF for enthusiasts
price it similarly to 5D Mk II - so around 2000 USD
should make it like "more then 5D Mk II" but "less then 5D Mk III" - less fps (around 4), smaller buffer, lower ISO range (to 51200/102 400 as max expanded) etc - basicly not to cut form 7D and 5D Mk III sales
should make it with better AF then 5D Mk II but not 61-point - 7D-like AF or 31-point with 9 cross-type
should make it from mag-alloy with some sort of sealing - 5D Mk II-like
This kind of body should give them enough difference from 7D and 5D Mk III. Some of current 5D Mk II users might upgrade, some of 7D users would like it as a second body, some of 5D Mk III could buy it as a backup, it would attract 60D/xxxD and xxxxD users. For me - winner for Canon.

Sure, natural way of upgrade is 5D-5D Mk II-5D Mk III - but Canon will get your money on lenses and accessories  And some of us does not have 3300+ USD to splash on upgrade. Someone could thing like "Id rather buy 2000 USD body and one L lens"...just my thoughts


----------



## M249 (Jul 28, 2012)

Daniel Flather said:


> M249 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel Flather said:
> ...



It's really not a budget thing but I simply can't justify myself spending this kind of money on a camera. I'm just a entusiast, not even a semi-pro.


----------



## M249 (Jul 28, 2012)

mathino said:


> RC said:
> 
> 
> > Yip NO "swively thingy" for me, it could be a deal breaker--I want mag alloy and weather sealing. I think it is pretty clear that Canon will not add a flip screen to metal WS bodies. Canon, these are still "still" cameras first, video is secondary. And don't turn it into a FF 60D (no offense 60D users) with plastic, swivel screen, and no AFMA? Unfortunately, I do think the new "entry" FF will be plastic, and with swivel screen, but not sure about no AFMA.
> ...



This is what I'm talking about. A 5D Mark IIN. They can't go wrong with this type of camera. Price it around 2000 €.


----------



## mathino (Jul 28, 2012)

M249 said:


> It's really not a budget thing but I simply can't justify myself spending this kind of money on a camera. I'm just a entusiast, not even a semi-pro.



Same as me, Im not a pro but I want to progress and this kind of FF (rumored one) would be a good tool for it. A lot of users here are enthusiasts who cant justify that price tag.

And as I stated in my previous post:


> ...natural way of upgrade is 5D-5D Mk II-5D Mk III - but Canon will get your money on lenses and accessories And some of us does not have 3300+ USD to splash on upgrade. Someone could thing like "Id rather buy 2000 USD body and one L lens"...


----------



## RC (Jul 28, 2012)

mathino said:


> ...
> I think that 70D gets swivel screen with touch, new sensor with phase AF, 6-8 fps (depends on how 7D Mk II specs would be like) and better AF (probably from 7D). 7D Mk II could have same sensor as 70D with 61-point AF, 10 fps, mag-alloy body with fixed screen.
> 
> From _my point of view_, Canon:
> ...


This does make a lot of sense, and I sure hope you are correct



M249 said:


> It's really not a budget thing but I simply can't justify myself spending this kind of money on a camera. I'm just a entusiast, not even a semi-pro.


I'm in the same boat. Yes, technically I can fork out the bucks for a 5D3 but I really don't have that kind of money to justify such an expense. I'm very much hoping this new FF will meet my specs.


----------



## mathino (Jul 28, 2012)

M249 said:


> This is what I'm talking about. A 5D Mark IIN. They can't go wrong with this type of camera. Price it around 2000 €.



Yep, but I dont mind how they call it (9D,8D,6D,5D-E,...)  They just cant go wrong with it.

I think that Canon is sending/would send quiet clear message:

_Want good high ISO, FF, good AF, partially sealed body for 2000 USD ?_ - *get entry FF*
_Want speed (fps), reach, good AF and ws body ?_ - *get 7D (7D Mk II in future)*
_Want top AF, good high ISO and decent speed ?_ - *get 5D Mk III*
_Want good high ISO, good AF, high fps ?_ - *get entry FF and 7D (7D Mk II in future)*
_Want top AF, best ISO, best sealing, fastest body - all in one ?_ - *get 1D-X*


----------



## mathino (Jul 28, 2012)

> ...
> I think that 70D gets swivel screen with touch, new sensor with phase AF, 6-8 fps (depends on how 7D Mk II specs would be like) and better AF (probably from 7D). 7D Mk II could have same sensor as 70D with 61-point AF, 10 fps, mag-alloy body with fixed screen.
> 
> From _my point of view_, Canon:
> ...





> This does make a lot of sense, and I sure hope you are correct



Ive been thinking of what makes the best sense for Canon and what would attract the widest possible range of customers. By my thinking it would be a clear winner for them. But next couple of week should tell us if Im right...or close enough.



> I'm in the same boat. Yes, technically I can fork out the bucks for a 5D3 but I really don't have that kind of money to justify such an expense. I'm very much hoping this new FF will meet my specs.



...a lot of us here feels the same. Yes, I have enough money to buy 5D Mk III but I wont...simply because its more then I can justify/accept (3100 € here) for a body. I would rather buy some lens for the difference. So...Canon will get my money one or the other way.


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## samirachiko (Jul 29, 2012)

mathino said:


> As for now Canon does not implement flip screen into thougher and (at least partially) sealed bodies (1D, 7D and 5D series).



As Marsu42 has already said "The 7d was released before Canon had *any* bodies with swivel screen, so the reason might be completely different."

A swivel screen can be one of the features that can make a difference with a 5D MK3!


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## mathino (Jul 29, 2012)

samirachiko said:


> mathino said:
> 
> 
> > As for now Canon does not implement flip screen into thougher and (at least partially) sealed bodies (1D, 7D and 5D series).
> ...



Well, all I stated before was according to original post (_*Design closer to 7D than 5D3 (smaller and with flash)*_). I assume that it could be something like 7D/5D Mk II in terms of design - they both have buttons on the left and fixed screen. Many of users that came in contact with 7D/5D Mk II would agree that this placement of buttons is better - you can make adjustments (presets, menu etc) with both hands. On 60 D you need to use only your thumb to do everything.

Heh, and I can remember situation after 60D release: "This is a plastic body ?! No more magnesium alloy like 50D had ?! No more AFMA ?!". And yes, I can see same situation happening now. And I remeber that many users complained about center multiple-way _"thing"_ - quiet though and difficult to press.

...I guess we will see soon. Like always, there are two groups of users - one want 7D-like body, mag-alloy, sealed - other want swivel screen ;D


*EDIT: * Dont you nowdays have a possibility to attach external LCD via HDMI (better resolition, bigger, better for precise focusing) ? You can get 7" LCD for +- 180 USD (which is not so much).

...or you can get this:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/8189/an-affordable-articulated-screen-with-peaking-for-the-5d-mark-iii-the-swivi-usa


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## Marsu42 (Jul 30, 2012)

mathino said:


> Heh, and I can remember situation after 60D release: "This is a plastic body ?! No more magnesium alloy like 50D had ?! No more AFMA ?!". And yes, I can see same situation happening now.



My 2 cents concerning a metal body: I was determined to get one, but then the 60d was released an I bought it anyway. Today, I have to say I don't quite understand what a metal body should be for except for peace of mind - if you drop your camera, the body is the last thing to split, before that it's much more likely your lens, top or rear lcd will be broken.

Not that I wouldn't want a metal body, but the comparable Nikon d7000 has a "fake" metal body only on the rear, too. And plastic can be pretty sturdy, too - it just depends on how it's made, so "metal" imho is rather a marketing issue.



samirachiko said:


> A swivel screen can be one of the features that can make a difference with a 5D MK3!



+1 for swivel screen ... just because old-school photogs seem to think it cannot be "pr0", so Canon marketing would be wise to mark the 6d as an "amateur" body with it.

+1 for button redesign - maybe the 6d will get a multicontroller and no joystick like the 60d to dumb it down and make a usability difference to the 5d line.

-1 for built-in flash ... the ff prism is rather large, Canon never added a flash (unlike Nikon). And because they switched to radio flash, the master feature of a built-in flash is not needed anymore.


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## tron (Jul 30, 2012)

You can say I am pessimistic but I bet that in the new entry level FF there will be at least one feature that will be worse than 5Dmk2.
Now whether this will be important or not to potential buyers is a totally different matter. If I were to guess I would say non-replaceable screen and/or plastic body...


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## AvTvM (Jul 31, 2012)

as a long-time Canon-buyer and follower of news, i have learnt to expect the bare minimum. I therefore predict:

* EOS6D 
entry level FF, 5D3 sensor, 7D AF, body 7D-ish, including pop-up flash; MSRP @launch: USD/€ 2700 

* EOS7D II 
new 21-24 MP APS-C sensor (what else!), same AF, same body, minor improvements elsewhere, mostly in video crap, if they really go overboard, we MIGHT get a built-in radio-flash commander; still no WiFi, no GPS; MSRP at launch: USD/€ 2200

* EOS 70D 
same new 24MP sensor as 7D II, AF almost unchanged from 60D, articulated LCD, some minor improvements, mainly video crap; pop-up flash, NO radio controller, no WiFi, no GPS; MSRP @launch: USD/€ 1400


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## Jason Beiko (Jul 31, 2012)

I think your bang on about your future camera predictions....


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## ecka (Jul 31, 2012)

AvTvM said:


> as a long-time Canon-buyer and follower of news, i have learnt to expect the bare minimum. I therefore predict:
> 
> * EOS6D
> entry level FF, 5D3 sensor, 7D AF, body 7D-ish, including pop-up flash; MSRP @launch: USD/€ 2700
> ...



How about ...
* EOS6D 
lower class FF (I'm sorry, but "entry level" sounds ridiculous  ); 7D AF; not sure about pop-up flash, even if it wasn't a smaller than 5D body (like many are expecting), a pop-up flash on top of the huge pentaprism would make it look as bad as a D700  and even worse if it was a smaller body. However, it would be nice to have for occasional wireless flash control. MSRP $2500 (+ 5D2 must be discontinued, because it would be even more "entry level" than the 6D, with it's current ~$2000-2100 retail price)

* EOS7D II 
new APS-C sensor (that's for sure , just leave the hybrids for Rebels and mirrorless); 5D3 AF, why not? It's a high-end APS-C camera after all. If not, then nikon D400 will just destroy it... MSRP $2000

* EOS 70D 
same new APS-C sensor from 7D II; 7D (I) AF (Rebel gets the 60D AF); 60D'ish body; 650D's vari-angle touchscreen LCD; MSRP $1200

EXIT LEVEL = Medium Format = costs a fortune
PRO = 1D = $6800
HIGH FF = 5D3 = $3500
MID FF = 6D = $2500
HIGH APS-C = 7d2 = $2000
HIGH APS-C = 7d = $1700
MID APS-C = 70D = $1200
MID APS-C = 60D = $1000
COSUMER = T4i/650D = $800
ENTRY LEVEL = T3/1100D = $500


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## sick_666 (Jul 31, 2012)

i need buy a new camera, 7d or wait 4 new 7d2? (i need know when new 7d2 come out!


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## DJL329 (Jul 31, 2012)

sick_666 said:


> i need buy a new camera, 7d or wait 4 new 7d2? (i need know when new 7d2 come out!



Perhaps they could post the following line on the banner: "If you need it now, buy it now." :

I don't recall any 7D2 rumors, and with the announced major firmware upgrade for the 7D due, it's probably _at least_ a couple of months away. Might not even get announced until next year. Nobody really knows, yet.


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## mathino (Jul 31, 2012)

sick_666 said:


> i need buy a new camera, 7d or wait 4 new 7d2? (i need know when new 7d2 come out!



All points to 7D Mk II to be announced rather next year then in 2012. We hear mostly of "lower class" FF and high MPx FF to be announced this year. My bet for APS-C replacement is for 60D. But...I might be wrong. Well, you can wait for Photokina and see for yourself what comes out. Even IF 7D Mk II comes out - it will be priced higher then current one with some specs updated (so new pricing could lead you to buying 7D anyway). Its your call now. If you were in the market for FF upgrade I would say hold and see what comes...but with 7D I would not be that certain about waiting...


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## marekjoz (Jul 31, 2012)

DJL329 said:


> sick_666 said:
> 
> 
> > i need buy a new camera, 7d or wait 4 new 7d2? (i need know when new 7d2 come out!
> ...



Chuck might already know...


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## rocketdesigner (Aug 1, 2012)

An HDSLR video user's wish list for this new FF:

1) On Screen Audio Levels / Level Control (This should be doable)
2) Headphone Jack (I doubt there will be a headphone jack)
3) No Moire/Jello in Video Mode (?)
4) Price Tag $1999

Question for the experts: With a digic 5 processor, does that mean no moire or jello issues in video mode like the mkIII?


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## marekjoz (Aug 1, 2012)

rocketdesigner said:


> An HDSLR video user's wish list for this new FF:
> 
> 1) On Screen Audio Levels / Level Control (This should be doable)
> 2) Headphone Jack (I doubt there will be a headphone jack)
> ...



There is still jello good visible in 5d3. Here is a comparison to nex7 Rolling shutter jello comparison: Canon 5D mark III, 5Dmk3, vs Sony Nex-7 

Nex has smaller sensor but jello comparable, which is a great thing for canon. 1dc and 1dx also have rolling shutter easy to see. Maybe C300? If you want to shoot airscrews in action, I think not many CMOS cameras would help you in this area  I'm rather sure it won't be an entry level FF, which might be just comparable to 5d3.


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## tron (Aug 1, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > Canon may make the entry level FF to be NO video cappability. Then it will really distinguish it from any other FF.
> ...



+1 to both!

A non-video FF with weak AA filter and a 5D3 sensor and capabilities (with NO swivel screen) would be the my dream camera :


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## mathino (Aug 1, 2012)

tron said:


> +1 to both!
> 
> A non-video FF with weak AA filter and a 5D3 sensor and capabilities (with NO swivel screen) would be the my dream camera :



I would be happy just with stills as you. But lets be realistic, I doubt that Canon would introduce "stills only" camera. No swivel screen is very real, I think  Like I said before, I would be happy with 7D/5D Mk II-like body (mag-alloy body and partial sealing), same video (or little better then) 5D Mk II, 7D metring, 7D AF and good ISO to 6400. Anything more would be a plus.


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## lola (Aug 2, 2012)

mathino said:


> I think that Canon is sending/would send quiet clear message:
> 
> _Want good high ISO, FF, good AF, partially sealed body for 2000 USD ?_ - *get entry FF*
> _Want speed (fps), reach, good AF and ws body ?_ - *get 7D (7D Mk II in future)*
> ...



Let me add one thing you're missing :


_Want high-res & high DR ?_ - *suffer and die*


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## mathino (Aug 2, 2012)

lola said:


> Let me add one thing you're missing :
> 
> 
> _Want high-res & high DR ?_ - *suffer and die*



;D right now you are right. There is no visible improvement of DR in current Canon sensors.

But, it might be improved with "rumored" high MPx body. Ive heard everything from 32 MPx, 45 MPx to 47 MPx. According to rumors posted here and on NL it is possible that such body could come in 2013.


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## new-z (Aug 7, 2012)

I will be happy with 

DSLR - ASP-H senor and 18 MPx or 22 MPx
Design - closer to 7D or to the 5D3
AF system - why not closer to the 1D3/4
7D metring 
FPS - may be 5, it will be better than my 450D
51200 max ISO with a nice level at 12800
Price - under 2200 USD ~ 2000 €


450D | EF 70-200 L 2.8 | EF 50 1.4 USM | AT-X 12-24 PRO 4
www.new-z.fr


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