# tax on videocams with more than 29min 59sec recording time?



## gkaefer (Apr 10, 2012)

Maybe answered on forum, didnt find it ... so sorry if double posting...

On the german wiki page for the MKIII I read
that Canon limits the video recording time because of avoiding to be taxed as video cam.
The Cam does not have an entry level price, so I wonder how much higher the camera would be, if videos with more than 29min 59sec could be possible. 50 or 100euro more for having an unlimited (limited by cardmedium) I think would not be a argument against it?

Georg

link to the german wiki page I refer to:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS_5D_Mark_III


----------



## cinema-dslr (Apr 10, 2012)

I think it's around 4,9% extra tax


----------



## colin1984 (Apr 10, 2012)

Well in my Country you have also pay URA if you buy a HDD because you can saving copyrighted Material on it, but the shops don´t pay it with the argument that, old radiocassetes also haven´t URA but you can also save Copyrighted Material on it.

I don´t think that the URA will make it so much higher but if you look on various good HD Camcorder, they are Cheaper than the 5DIII and can record longer, and also have the URA included; So yes doesn´t make sense,

But maybe it´s because they don´t want to let you pay extra only because you have to click a second or third time on the record button, you only miss one or two seconds, so in my opinion it´s Ok if you don´t can record longer.

I also think How long does a clip goes, Most users press the record button and after a few minutes they say I´ve what i want, and stop the record;


----------



## gkaefer (Apr 10, 2012)

In my case I wanna film a 90min. theatre play (I'm organizing it and have the rights to film it).

my main focus is and will be taking still images. but 1-5 times a year It woudl be great to avoid buying a second (video)camera. 

with only one cam I have to film the theatre play several times with different starting times to get different cutting points to be able to fill the gaps. 

Being on holiday, shooting weddings etc. 29minutes are no real limitation.

for my purpose it would be the best solution to pay this tax if it would be available
instead of using more than one cam or filming the play more than once.

Georg


----------



## dvunkannon (Apr 10, 2012)

My understanding was that the limitation is on the file size, not the total length of the recording. In other words, when the time hits 29:59, the camera will open a new file and keep on recording into the new file without interruption. If you record a 90 minute play, you hit 'Record' once at the beginning, stop at the end, and you have three files with no gaps.


----------



## cinema-dslr (Apr 10, 2012)

dvunkannon said:


> My understanding was that the limitation is on the file size, not the total length of the recording. In other words, when the time hits 29:59, the camera will open a new file and keep on recording into the new file without interruption. If you record a 90 minute play, you hit 'Record' once at the beginning, stop at the end, and you have three files with no gaps.



That is wrong.
the 29:59 limit is because of a EU tax limit
Because of the FAT32 formating system of the camera files are limited to 4GB files
depending on the data rate of your codec the 5dmarkIII will now produce multiple 4GB files untill it reaches the 29:59 limit.

on the 7D a 4GB file results in about 12minutes files


----------



## Neeneko (Apr 10, 2012)

RC said:


> What a bunch of horse crap. I just love government control and regulation. :



Meh, while it impacts you in this case, chances are it helps you in others. The tariff system is a complex mess of trying to balance internal vs external economies. While there is a certain amount of corrupt protectionism involved, it also plays an important role in stabilizing the economic interface between states.

It should also be noted that if the tariff was 'fair', still camera prices would go up, not multimedia prices go down. Right now still cameras (and things that can be classified as such) have a 0% duty while camcorders have 4.9%. Some other A/V equipment is as high as 14%, and things like clothes are 12%. So right now still cameras are getting a special rate that most other items are not, while camcorders are more in line with other goods.


----------



## SPG (Apr 10, 2012)

It's not file size, it's length of recording time. 30 minutes is the threshold to be considered a video camera. That means that Canon would then have to pay that tax and manage the actual tax in each territory as well as paying the tax for a stills camera. It's a bit of a hassle that they just don't want to deal with as well as an increase in retail price where the margins are already very slim. That simple.


----------



## unruled (Apr 10, 2012)

gkaefer said:


> In my case I wanna film a 90min. theatre play (I'm organizing it and have the rights to film it).
> 
> my main focus is and will be taking still images. but 1-5 times a year It woudl be great to avoid buying a second (video)camera.
> 
> ...


id be surprised if a dSLR battery lasts 3 hours shooting video anyway...


----------



## cayenne (Apr 10, 2012)

cinema-dslr said:


> dvunkannon said:
> 
> 
> > My understanding was that the limitation is on the file size, not the total length of the recording. In other words, when the time hits 29:59, the camera will open a new file and keep on recording into the new file without interruption. If you record a 90 minute play, you hit 'Record' once at the beginning, stop at the end, and you have three files with no gaps.
> ...



Hmm...well, I was hoping this artificial software governor.....and maybe Magic Lantern or the like could create new firmware for the 5D mkIII...so that this artificial limit might be *fixed* for us.
I'm curious moreso...why they are still using a filesystem as old and outdated as FAT32?!!?

Why not use a more modern filesystem that can support large files more easily? I mean, even if the camera does make multiple files over long recordings...there are perceivable gaps as one file is closed and the next one is opened, is there not? ???


cayenne


----------



## RunAndGun (Apr 10, 2012)

cayenne said:


> Why not use a more modern filesystem that can support large files more easily? I mean, even if the camera does make multiple files over long recordings...there are perceivable gaps as one file is closed and the next one is opened, is there not? ???
> 
> 
> cayenne



Although I do not shoot video on my MKIII, I'm going to assume NO. I work in TV and I have several pieces of equipment that are file based and depending on the length of recording, they have to split it into separate files, but they "span", or are seemless once assembled into a timeline of an NLE or played back of off the corresponding equipment. No dropped or missing frames and my understanding is that the MKIII now does that, as well.


----------



## gkaefer (Apr 10, 2012)

unruled said:


> gkaefer said:
> 
> 
> > In my case I wanna film a 90min. theatre play (I'm organizing it and have the rights to film it).
> ...



well. probably not with the stock one ;-)
I do with my Canon Eos 400D panos, so I've to power my panohead and my camera to hold
up to 4000 image positions, 5 brackets on each position and if its hard than comes focus stacking as multiplyer.
So my different sizes external powertanks have no poblem with this setup (external batterygrip + battery cigar light converter -> external powertank). so I also can imagine that 3 hours video could be possible with 150€ hardware investment for adaptor and powertank.

Georg


----------



## gkaefer (Apr 11, 2012)

cinema-dslr said:


> I think it's around 4,9% extra tax



ok. and is there information available why canon does not include this tax in the product price?
and if this is a european only thing than let the price higher than in other places on earth...
I mean we all pay taxes - painful enough if I look on my last bill at the gas station where more than 50% is directly going to tax...
Magic Latern solution of course I would also accept ;-))

Georg


----------



## CanineCandidsByL (Apr 11, 2012)

gkaefer said:


> In my case I wanna film a 90min. theatre play (I'm organizing it and have the rights to film it).



Organizing may not give you the rights to film/record. If your doing a play you purchased rights to perform, you may have to pay additional fees to record. Some schools have recently learned that the hard way when they recorded and later sold videos to parents.

But if you have the permission of the owner or your company owns the rights, film away.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 11, 2012)

gkaefer said:


> Maybe answered on forum, didnt find it ... so sorry if double posting...
> 
> On the german wiki page for the MKIII I read
> that Canon limits the video recording time because of avoiding to be taxed as video cam.
> ...


 
Yes, it happened in 2007, and rather than pay many millions of dollars in taxes, the camera industry limits still cameras that do video to 29 minutes and 59 seconds. Think of all the compact cameras, dslr's, mirrorless cameras sold in Europe every year. If they can do 800 x 600, or at over 23 frames a second, they are limited to 29.99 minutes before the tax cuts in. Most Cameras sold today can do that, maybe not phone cameras. 4.9% of 10 million cameras or so is not pocket change.

http://philipbloom.net/2009/06/03/the-lumix-30-minutes-eu-recording-issue/ 

As to designing a different camera for Europe, imagine the paperwork for travlers wanting to bring their cameras into Europe and having to pay tax or prove they are taking them back with them.

The solution is for European citizens to get the law changed. Vote out a few politicians, and its amazing how fast laws like this change.


----------



## gkaefer (Apr 11, 2012)

CanineCandidsByL said:


> gkaefer said:
> 
> 
> > In my case I wanna film a 90min. theatre play (I'm organizing it and have the rights to film it).
> ...



thanks for information.
I've the rights to film , I organize the play, I pay the actors, I hire the stage and location, I sell the tickets; 
the author of the play is dead since 1923, the play is from 1911.
Georg


----------



## gkaefer (Apr 11, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> gkaefer said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe answered on forum, didnt find it ... so sorry if double posting...
> ...



thanks for information.
fact is that Canon is selling in Europe Videocamera which can record more than 29min. So for these devices Canon has no problem to accerpt this tax, and for Still Canons they cant do it because of the fact they're producing only one cam for the world? Thats sounds like a fake argument. The Canon named in USA "Rebel Xti" is named in Europe "400D" and many others models too have different stickers in 3 different regions and different manuals and different boxes for one and the same product. So this is economically also doubtful, the customer has to pay for this.
As in my case... I could save buying a second (video)camera if this European law would no longer exist.
So its finally Canons economically advantage having this law in existance, Canon can sell (worldwide) more Camera... and its customers disadvantage.

Georg


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Apr 11, 2012)

gkaefer said:


> fact is that Canon is selling in Europe Videocamera which can record more than 29min. So for these devices Canon has no problem to accerpt this tax, and for Still Canons they cant do it because of the fact they're producing only one cam for the world? Thats sounds like a fake argument. The Canon named in USA "Rebel Xti" is named in Europe "400D" and many others models too have different stickers in 3 different regions and different manuals and different boxes for one and the same product. So this is economically also doubtful, the customer has to pay for this.
> As in my case... I could save buying a second (video)camera if this European law would no longer exist.
> So its finally Canons economically advantage having this law in existance, Canon can sell (worldwide) more Camera... and its customers disadvantage.
> 
> Georg


 
What makes you think that is a fake argument? Do you really think its only Canon?

Which came first? The Camcorder or the Tax?? The Camcorder was already out there for many years when the tax was levied, but the 5D MK II had not been released yet. 


Since The 5D MK II was the first high quality DSLR that would potentially be taxed, they merely limited it to under 30 minutes. That wasn't a issue because it could only record for 12 minutes anyway. Until the past year, overheating of the sensor also made it impractical to record for long periods, and the battery will not last very long either. 

ALL camera manufacturers do the same, be it Sony, Nikon, Panasonic, or whoever.


----------



## D.Sim (Apr 11, 2012)

gkaefer said:


> cinema-dslr said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's around 4,9% extra tax
> ...



Well, they don't include this tax in the produc price because they're keeping it under the limit so that theres NO need to pay the tax in the first place. If they allowed 1 second more though, you'd be paying what ~175 more on a ~3500 camera? Not a lot, true, but imagine all the whinging stills only shooters will have going on if that was there....


----------



## cayenne (Apr 11, 2012)

D.Sim said:


> Well, they don't include this tax in the produc price because they're keeping it under the limit so that theres NO need to pay the tax in the first place. If they allowed 1 second more though, you'd be paying what ~175 more on a ~3500 camera? Not a lot, true, but imagine all the whinging stills only shooters will have going on if that was there....



I wonder...do they sell more cameras in Europe or the US and the rest of the world? If less in Europe, why base the policy on the lowest common denominator?

At the very least...why don't they make it 'trivial' to bypass this artificial governor on recording time for video?


----------



## D.Sim (Apr 12, 2012)

cayenne said:


> D.Sim said:
> 
> 
> > Well, they don't include this tax in the produc price because they're keeping it under the limit so that theres NO need to pay the tax in the first place. If they allowed 1 second more though, you'd be paying what ~175 more on a ~3500 camera? Not a lot, true, but imagine all the whinging stills only shooters will have going on if that was there....
> ...



Because then the moment you step into Europe, you're going to get taxed. Also: How many dSLR shooters are seriously going to be shooting for >30 mins? Even those cinematographers keep it way under that time limit, same goes for wedding shooters. If you're shooting something continuous that you need more than that time, you're going to be looking for a dedicated video camera


----------



## CanineCandidsByL (Apr 13, 2012)

I guess this raises the obvious question, why not two versions of the camera? Identical versions except with and withou >30 min recording and with the EU tax collected. However I prefer the "firing" of legislator until this gets fixed.


----------



## cayenne (Apr 15, 2012)

CanineCandidsByL said:


> I guess this raises the obvious question, why not two versions of the camera? Identical versions except with and withou >30 min recording and with the EU tax collected. However I prefer the "firing" of legislator until this gets fixed.


Or at the very least....maybe have Canon make it trivial to defeat the artificial limit..that way, they don't get taxed...since they meet the letter of the law...but with a simple switch....turn it off.


----------



## Terry Rogers (Apr 15, 2012)

These types of taxes make my blood boil. We have a similar tax on blank media (CD's) in Canada because they can be used to copy pirated music. It distributes the cost of lost revenue from the record companies to everyone who uses CD's... what???!!!??? By that logic, I am paying for music I have not purchased when I buy blank CD's, and thus the tax is in fact stealing from me!!!! To me, a logical conclusion would be to pirate and download all you can and all you want as you are paying for it whether you do it or not.


----------

