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## kmmills (May 23, 2013)

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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

What did Nissin say when you contacted their support? Or maybe you think it's Canon's responsibility to ensure that every single 3rd party accessory works with each of their new products? I can assure you that the Canon MR-14EX and MT-24EX macro flashes work just fine with a macro lens on a 5DIII... Obviously you can select an aperture with a Canon 430 or 580 flash attached - I expect user error (hopefully the Nissin unit didn't mess something up - with some lenses on a 5DIII, some Kenko TCs lock up the camera such that a remove-battery reset is needed).


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

My 5D MK III works fine with my 580 EX II flash in AV mode.

Remember, the camera switches to fill mode when you mount a flash and set it to AV, so exposure times will look pretty weird if you don't use it right.
For Macro, use manual if you want to control things.


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Remember, the camera switches to fill mode when you mount a flash and set it to AV, so exposure times will look pretty weird if you don't use it right.
> For Macro, use manual if you want to control things.



Freudian slip on my part - you wrote use manual, and I read use THE manual (aka RTFM). 

I just re-read the OP's post more carefully (can I blame 3 hrs of intereupted sleep prior to getting up at 4a for a day trip from Boston to New Jersey? Home now...). You're obviously correct, as was my embedded statement about user error. In Av mode with the flash sync in Av mode setting on Auto (which is the default), the camera will expose for ambient background and then light the subject with the E-TTL flash.

So it's a wetware problem, I think... 

EDIT: re-reading my re-read, maybe I wasn't as tired as I thought - the first line says 'no aperture selection' implying that turning the main dial does not change the aperture setting. If that's the case, there is something wrong. But it is more likely the OP's description of the problem isn't fully accurate, and that aperture is changing but so is shutter speed for a correct ambient exposure.


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## pwp (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



kmmills said:


> No Aperture Selection When Using a Flash in AV on the Mark III, NOT GOOD!


I'd say it's a Nissin thing or user error...I've used 5D3 with AV and 580exII multiple times per week since the 5D3 first shipped. No problems over here...

-PW


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## Mt Spokane Photography (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



neuroanatomist said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > Remember, the camera switches to fill mode when you mount a flash and set it to AV, so exposure times will look pretty weird if you don't use it right.
> ...


 
I was wondering if it was peculiar to his 180mmL. I don't have one, so I tried it on my 100mmL as well as my 70-200mmL. I avoid using flash in AV merely because I tend to get really poor exposures if I'm not paying careful attention.


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## bdunbar79 (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



kmmills said:


> It's good to hear the first thing is user error. Wow!
> 
> Nissin is not at fault, Canon is and they admitted to it. Maybe you don't understand how to shoot flash controlling DOF. I do and have.
> 
> ...



As usual, this entire thread was worthless.


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## ahab1372 (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

Most Cameras (even the T3i) allow you to set a shutter speed range when using flash - did you check the settings in the custom functions? Sounds like there is no limit set on your 5D3


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## ishdakuteb (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

i do not have my camera here with me to test, but here is another test i would want to know... put on your flash with av mode, point your lens to sun or REALLY REALLY bright light. let me know what shutter speed you have? i would guess, it will be at sync speed with flashing which indicates that you are over expose...

however, i do not use av mode with flash... not sure why you are needing av mode to control dof...

note: in your post, you have said that 1dx has the same problem. i am not pretty sure about this but i know that there is one prof. wedding photographer using his 1dx and flash in av mode without any problem, that person is sal cincotta... in short, shooting for 40 years and using av mode with flash to control dof... i feel really sorry...


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## TW (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



ahab1372 said:


> Most Cameras (even the T3i) allow you to set a shutter speed range when using flash - did you check the settings in the custom functions? Sounds like there is no limit set on your 5D3



This is his problem. Needs to change the custom setting in the camera menu to prevent shutter speeds below 1/60 in aperture priority mode. RTFM.


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## ishdakuteb (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



kmmills said:


> ...If I want the ambient light to play correctly with the flash then I can use Manual or adjust the flash over and under exposure in-camera settings...



by seeing above statement, i can tell that you do not know how to use on camera flash/direct flash properly... suggest to go back and learn flash. and yes, this message is from a dslr newbie, not from a 40 years canon shooter...


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## eninja (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

. first: I don't understand the first post. Title says, No aperture selection. But the problem is as stated, shutter speed is way to slow.

. second: In Av mode, camera sets shutter speed to 0.5s. Of course, this is how Av mode right? depend on the ISO set, and aperture set, shutter speed is automatically set base from desired exposure.

. third: of course it will see the flash, because shutter speed is slower than sync speed which is around 1/200.

What did I miss?


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## M.ST (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

I used the 5D Mark III a few month from end 2011 to mid 2012. There is no error in Av mode with flashes.

But I highly recommend to setup the flashes manually to get the best results. If you want the best results with your camera use the manual mode. With flashes it´s the same.

Look in the 5D Mark III manual. Page "flash sync in Av mode". The go to the flash menue in your camera and set the settings you need.


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



kmmills said:


> Maybe you don't understand how to shoot flash controlling DOF. I do and have.



Sure, none of us understand that. 

But _your_ misunderstanding is the cause of your current (non) issue.



kmmills said:


> If it is user error, then tell me why the T3i responds correctly? or is the T3i broken and the Mark III working correctly.



The thing that's not working correctly is the user - that's you, bub. Your 5DIII is set to Auto, your T3i is set to a 1/200 - 1/60 s limit. You must have used some of those fingers you mention to change that setting on your T3i long ago, and forgotten. Do let us know when Canon gets back to you, and tells you to send your 'broken' 5DIII in for service. :


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## paul13walnut5 (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

Spot the odd one out:

Canon 5D3
Canon 180 L macro
Nissin ringflash

Sounds like a sh!t flash / RTFM issue.

Because of course, it should all just work out the box, thats why you spent all that money on it, right?

I use an even sh!ttier flash, but then I also understand how the kit works because I read the manual, and so it works for me!


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



paul13walnut5 said:


> Spot the odd one out:
> 
> Canon 5D3
> Canon 180 L macro
> Nissin ringflash



Yeah, that threw me at first, too. But the Canon 430 and 580 he tried had the same 'problem' which meant user error was most likely. Sorry for blaming the 3rd party flash initially!

Of course, it's likely moot since the OP seems much happier blaming his equipment for his failure to fully understand how it works...but maybe he'll revisit this thread and learn something...


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## crasher8 (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

Pebcak error


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## privatebydesign (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

Whilst Neuro has definitively illustrated the actual workings of Canon cameras with flash in Av mode, via the Manual (RTFM) I find it is interesting that this is a fundamental difference between the way Nikon and Canon cameras work. 

Canon Av mode with flash works out two exposures, the subject which it illuminates with the flash, and the background that it illuminates with the shutter speed. With no EV compensation set it will attempt to balance the two. ETTL also has a pre-programmed EV compensation, is strong daylight it will underexpose the subject because it assumes you want it on fill duty. In dark situations it will give you very long shutter speeds. Nikon won't do this, the shutter speed will default to a value pre selected in the menu. With Canons if you want to alter the subject illumination you just need to adjust FEC, alternatively to only alter the background use regular exposure compensation. This gives you a huge amount of control to fine tune exposure in auto modes even in dynamic situations where subject distance is changing, or you are bouncing flash. Nikon cameras can also do separate subject and background exposures via the TTL-BL metering mode, but it is not quite the same as the very useful Canon Av mode with flash and their EV compensation also adjusts the flash output.

When shooting Canon and flash in dynamic situations I normally have the camera in M and the flash in ETTL. In less dynamic situations I go manual everything. For macro images, manual everything, the vast majority of macro shooting is as far from dynamic as it is possible to get short of studio still life images.


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## ahab1372 (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



neuroanatomist said:


> The thing that's not working correctly is the user - that's you, bub. Your 5DIII is set to Auto, your T3i is set to a 1/200 - 1/60 s limit. You must have used some of those fingers you mention to change that setting on your T3i long ago, and forgotten.


I'm not 100% sure, but I do believe 1/200 - 1/60 was the default on my T3i, so there is a chance the OP never touched it.


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## polarhannes (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

True - that is also one of the reasons why Syl Arena is shooting Canon and their Speedlites.
He mentioned it in his book "Speedliter's Handbook: Learning to Craft Light with Canon Speedlite"



privatebydesign said:


> Whilst Neuro has definitively illustrated the actual workings of Canon cameras with flash in Av mode, via the Manual (RTFM) I find it is interesting that this is a fundamental difference between the way Nikon and Canon cameras work.
> 
> Canon Av mode with flash works out two exposures, the subject which it illuminates with the flash, and the background that it illuminates with the shutter speed. With no EV compensation set it will attempt to balance the two. ETTL also has a pre-programmed EV compensation, is strong daylight it will underexpose the subject because it assumes you want it on fill duty. In dark situations it will give you very long shutter speeds. Nikon won't do this, the shutter speed will default to a value pre selected in the menu. With Canons if you want to alter the subject illumination you just need to adjust FEC, alternatively to only alter the background use regular exposure compensation. This gives you a huge amount of control to fine tune exposure in auto modes even in dynamic situations where subject distance is changing, or you are bouncing flash. Nikon cameras can also do separate subject and background exposures via the TTL-BL metering mode, but it is not quite the same as the very useful Canon Av mode with flash and their EV compensation also adjusts the flash output.
> 
> When shooting Canon and flash in dynamic situations I normally have the camera in M and the flash in ETTL. In less dynamic situations I go manual everything. For macro images, manual everything, the vast majority of macro shooting is as far from dynamic as it is possible to get short of studio still life images.


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



ahab1372 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > The thing that's not working correctly is the user - that's you, bub. Your 5DIII is set to Auto, your T3i is set to a 1/200 - 1/60 s limit. You must have used some of those fingers you mention to change that setting on your T3i long ago, and forgotten.
> ...



According to p.252 of TFM, which I just re-R'd (  ), the default setting for the T3i is also Auto (1/200 - 30 s).


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## privatebydesign (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



polarhannes said:


> True - that is also one of the reasons why Syl Arena is shooting Canon and their Speedlites.
> He mentioned it in his book "Speedliter's Handbook: Learning to Craft Light with Canon Speedlite"



The huge advantage Nikon flash users have had over us poor Canon flash users until recently, was the SU-800, that gives a ST-E3-RT like group interface and incredible control, but over optical triggering. The SU-800 really does make the ST-E2 look like a joke. The other cool Nikon feature we still don't have is SU-4 mode, which is just remote manual and optical dumb trigger, that is why Nikon flashes with SU-4 are so useful, you can integrate them into any manufacturers flash setup.

But with post 2012 bodies and the RT system Canon really have leapfrogged Nikon in the flash department.


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## MARKOE PHOTOE (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



According to p.252 of TFM, which I just re-R'd (  ), the default setting for the T3i is also Auto (1/200 - 30 s).
[/quote]

'TFM' is this 'The Freakin' Manual' ??? ;D ;D ;D


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*

Hey, you use 'F' as an abbreviation your way, I'll use it mine, ok? ;D


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## crasher8 (May 23, 2013)

So now the OP edits his/her post to a simple exclamation mark. Elaine would be furious!


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## ahab1372 (May 23, 2013)

*Re: 5D Mark III inability to use AV mode with any flash*



neuroanatomist said:


> According to p.252 of TFM, which I just re-R'd (  ), the default setting for the T3i is also Auto (1/200 - 30 s).


I used to have TFM on my phone - I think I should keep it there instead of relying on my memory ;D

Too bad that the OP killed his/her post, it might have been useful for others


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## ahab1372 (May 23, 2013)

crasher8 said:


> So now the OP edits his/her post to a simple exclamation mark. Elaine would be furious!


Maybe out of shame or embarrassment? But I assume it was out of anger about the lack of compassion


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## paul13walnut5 (May 23, 2013)

Ask a silly question, expect a silly answer.

Walk about with top end professional kit and expect that people will think you know how to use it. Or read.


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## neuroanatomist (May 23, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> Ask a silly question, expect a silly answer.
> 
> Walk about with top end professional kit and expect that people will think you know how to use it. Or read.



+1

Shame/embarrassment gets my vote. Before his idea that the gear was the problem was shot down by cold, hard evidence, he had no problem blaming Canon and emphasizing it was NOT his fault.

To be fair, though, it seems a call to Canon service didn't help his problem. Sadly, that's not too surprising.


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## paul13walnut5 (May 23, 2013)

Canon service in the Uk can be pretty grim.

I actually bought a T2i for video because I couldn't depend on the 7D that I bought for video with UDMA cards until the firmware update fixed a problem Canon denied any knowledge of.

I also had a hire pool of 18 MV600 camcorders that broke with the same CCD fault, Canon denied an issue until the Sony CCD problem became widely acknowledged.


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