# The Canon EOS M50 and Canon EOS R continued to sell well in December



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 4, 2019)

> BCN has released their monthly sales numbers for cameras in Japan for the month of December 2018. Canon continues to dominate the top 20. The Canon EOS M50 continues to be a big seller for Canon, holding down the #3 and #4 spots on the list. The Canon EOS R is sitting in 13th place, one spot ahead of the Canon EOS 6D Mark II.
> Canon continues to dominate the Nikon Z 6 and Z 7 cameras with the EOS R, the Z 6 is sitting in 39th spot for the month.
> Sony’s full frame mirrorless offerings continue to be the best sellers of the segment, which shouldn’t come as much of a surprise. The A7 III is sitting at #10, which is the best spot for a full frame mirrorless camera.
> These sales charts are for Japan only, but they’re very accurate. I haven’t seen similar...



Continue reading...


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 4, 2019)

Interesting, the charts show also that DSLRs still aren't as dead as many "experts" tell us in the forums. For wildlife, I hope that Canon still will offer some good DSLRs, not only ML battery suckers. A peaceful co-existence of ML and DSLRs for different purposes would be best for the next years, until new technologies may overcome the huge energy consumption of current EVFs.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 4, 2019)

justaCanonuser said:


> Interesting, the charts show also that DSLRs still aren't as dead as many "experts" tell us in the forums.


Well, that what you and I get for basing opinions on data, rather than ignoring facts in favor of our own personal realities.


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## Don Haines (Jan 4, 2019)

But mirrorslappers are dead! This is a terrible thing for us, as we are going to a job tomorrow night with four dead mirrorslappers. They used to work fine, but now that the R has come out, none of them are usable any more!


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## Otara (Jan 4, 2019)

Without sales numbers or profitability, do placings really tell you much?

As in if the first place is 100 units, and the next is 101 units, the placing means essentially nothing, while if its 100 units vs 1, its a stomping.

Particularly given the Sony in the top 10 and the highest full frame. It could be meaningful or meaningless without the above context.


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## Woody (Jan 4, 2019)

Otara said:


> Without sales numbers or profitability, do placings really tell you much?
> As in if the first place is 100 units, and the next is 101 units, the placing means essentially nothing, while if its 100 units vs 1, its a stomping.
> Particularly given the Sony in the top 10 and the highest full frame. It could be meaningful or meaningless without the above context.



Then just wait a while for BCNRanking to release the yearly market share figures in each segment (DSLRs, MILCs, lenses etc)...


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## Jethro (Jan 5, 2019)

Interesting from Nikon's point of view - no FF in the top 20. It would be interesting to see where the cumulative sales of the Z6 and Z7 would sit - in terms of whether they made a strategic mistake in releasing both at the same time.


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## Durf (Jan 5, 2019)

I think Canon would make a lot of money if they'd spring a decked out 7D Mark iii upon us! I know I'd buy one (if it has a flip out screen)


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## jolyonralph (Jan 5, 2019)

justaCanonuser said:


> Interesting, the charts show also that DSLRs still aren't as dead as many "experts" tell us in the forums.



You're right. Low-end APS-C DSLRs are still selling well, especially the bundles with two low-end lenses. And they'll continue to sell them while they can make a profit from them.

But that's not really the market we're interested in here, is it? The only FF camera in the top 10 is a mirrorless.


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## Cryve (Jan 5, 2019)

Durf said:


> I think Canon would make a lot of money if they'd spring a decked out 7D Mark iii upon us! I know I'd buy one (if it has a flip out screen)


Im just interested in the next sensor canon brings to market. As far as i know the latest "really" new sensor was in the 5d IV in 2016.
I want to see what and how canon has improved sensor wise.

If we get jus one new sensor from canon i think we can guess how good the other ones will be. they wont be too different i think. 
So if we see one sensor from the 90d for example, we can get a good guess at how good the sensor will behave in a 7d III or how good
a 5d V sensor will be


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## Kharan (Jan 5, 2019)

Trying to extrapolate the numbers from BCN to the rest of the world is absolutely useless. Think about it, if these numbers held constant worldwide, Olympus would be competing against Sony and Nikon in terms of market share (which they most definitely do not). Also, the D850 would be a failure, as would the 7DII.
The Americas, Europe, Asia and Africa all have vastly different buying habits, not to mention the myriad differences from country to country. Stop assigning an extremely small sample, like BCN, so much importance.


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## Talys (Jan 5, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> You're right. Low-end APS-C DSLRs are still selling well, especially the bundles with two low-end lenses. And they'll continue to sell them while they can make a profit from them.
> 
> But that's not really the market we're interested in here, is it? The only FF camera in the top 10 is a mirrorless.


Low end APSC DSLRs with kit lenses are still very capable cameras. They're certainly good enough that if a skilled photographer took landscapes or headshots or portraits with them, nobody would say, "that's taken with a cheap camera". They're also good enough that if you can't get great shots out of them, you won't with a camera that costs ten times as much, either, whether it's a mirrorless or DSLR.

I occasionally take shots with the oldest DSLR that I still keep a charged battery for, a t2i, with a 18-135, and you know what, the photos are just fine.

Personally, I think those inexpensive APSC DSLRs are great for the hobby. For just a few hundred bucks, they get people who are interested in photography thinking about all the right things, and running into all the right challenges.


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## Pape (Jan 5, 2019)

Yep t2i censor is still sharper than lenses .on right light conditions shouldnt be much difference to what ever camera


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## 100 (Jan 5, 2019)

Kharan said:


> Trying to extrapolate the numbers from BCN to the rest of the world is absolutely useless.
> (...)
> Stop assigning an extremely small sample, like BCN, so much importance.



The Japanese market alone is about 13% of the global market en BCN collects sales data of about 2/3 of all Japanese retail stores, so the sample is not “extremely small”.
Nobody is assigning “much importance” nor extrapolating to global market shares.
Unless you interpret “…which seems to mimic what’s happening in Japan…” based on what USA retailers tell the writer of the post as extrapolation of numbers. 

Stop using straw man fallacies.


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## Kit. (Jan 5, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> But that's not really the market we're interested in here, is it? The only FF camera in the top 10 is a mirrorless.


At the moment, I am interested in G7X III. My FF camera is still working fine, thank you very much.


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## BeenThere (Jan 5, 2019)

More interesting for the manufactures than the users. Just buy what works for you and everyone else can do the same.


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## chik0240 (Jan 5, 2019)

it's easy to understand, as a gear geek myself haven't look or intend to upgrade my FF ever since I own my 5D mk III, the ISO, dynamic range and focus speed is already above what I need, and the FF view angle the same, as for lenses, I've owned my 70-200 F4L IS for 10 years and see no need to upgrade at all, the IS unit kicks in a bit slow compared to newer lenses, but the rendering and sharpness is already overkill, as of the 24-70L II, improvements to say the RF lenses is not enough to attract most geeks with their price.

and don't forget for most new comers the image of DSLR=professional is still persisting, size and weight difference isn't that great at entry level cameras either, so it's logical the low end APS-C will keep surviving for quite some more time


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## gdanmitchell (Jan 5, 2019)

justaCanonuser said:


> Interesting, the charts show also that DSLRs still aren't as dead as many "experts" tell us in the forums. For wildlife, I hope that Canon still will offer some good DSLRs, not only ML battery suckers. A peaceful co-existence of ML and DSLRs for different purposes would be best for the next years, until new technologies may overcome the huge energy consumption of current EVFs.



The "experts" have been saying that the DSLR is dead — and, often, that "everyone" was moving to mirrorless — for several years now. The evidence of sales reports and cameras seen in the field has belied that claim.

A qualifier. First, I use a mirrorless camera system (from Fujifilm) for about half of my photography, and I use a DSLR system from Canon for the other half. Second, while the "experts" (or fans?) have been wrong about the earlier state of mirrorless penetration of the high end market, those who have instead predicted that the future lies with mirrorless are almost certainly right. Clearly the major camera companies think so.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 5, 2019)

What is surprising is how well the RF 28-70 has sold. Dealers ran out and are taking backorders, so Canon definitely has the product in demand, even though the quantities are likely relatively small.


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## brianboru (Jan 5, 2019)

chik0240 said:


> it's easy to understand, as a gear geek myself haven't look or intend to upgrade my FF ever since I own my 5D mk III, the ISO, dynamic range and focus speed is already above what I need, and the FF view angle the same, as for lenses, I've owned my 70-200 F4L IS for 10 years and see no need to upgrade at all, the IS unit kicks in a bit slow compared to newer lenses, but the rendering and sharpness is already overkill, as of the 24-70L II, improvements to say the RF lenses is not enough to attract most geeks with their price.
> 
> and don't forget for most new comers the image of DSLR=professional is still persisting, size and weight difference isn't that great at entry level cameras either, so it's logical the low end APS-C will keep surviving for quite some more time



Mostly agreed. My 5D mk III is great and takes wonderful portraits when I want full frame and have the room to take the "big-bag". It's going to take probably five years for the R to be tempting. My guess is whenever the unannounced "high-end" R is released and then three or four years after that when it's at half it's introductory price.

With that said - I also have an M 50 and love it - handling is great, image quality is up to snuff and the native lenses are interesting and fun (I have them all except the new 32mm which I'll pick up at some point.) I picked up the M50 for a recent trip and the ability to put it and two lenses in my murse was great - one of which is always the phenomenal EF-M 11-22. Given my love of the kit, I do wish the BCN numbers had a single count for the two colors of the M50. Sagrada Família - M50 + EF-M 11-22

I have found a fun use for my old 40D and 7D - passing them onto my oldest son who is taking some damn good portraits proving that ten and twelve year old cameras can still make art.


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## JPAZ (Jan 5, 2019)

So I like (not love) the M5 I have. It is a plus when I don't or can't haul heavier and larger stuff. When I shoot with it, I often wish I had my 5Div with me. On a recent journey to NYC, I handled the R with the RF 24-105 in one of of our favorite camera shops. I liked it a lot but still felt limited (subjective on my part) by what felt like a slower response in obtaining images. That's my feeling even though the facts say the camera is very capable. 

At this point I'll "struggle" with my FF mirrorslapper and collection of glass. But, maybe this will change down the road.


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## canonnews (Jan 5, 2019)

Kharan said:


> Trying to extrapolate the numbers from BCN to the rest of the world is absolutely useless. Think about it, if these numbers held constant worldwide, Olympus would be competing against Sony and Nikon in terms of market share (which they most definitely do not). Also, the D850 would be a failure, as would the 7DII.
> The Americas, Europe, Asia and Africa all have vastly different buying habits, not to mention the myriad differences from country to country. Stop assigning an extremely small sample, like BCN, so much importance.



BCN essentially tells us the Japan market, which per capita is the largest market for cameras.

Overall it's only around 12% of the market, but it's also the only market that sells more mirrorless than DSLR's right now. so it's potentially a look into the future. You can also say that BCN looks at 6% of the entire global market with 100% accuracy.

It's also the local domestic market which at least for Canon, they weigh that very heavily in their decisions. Domestic marketshare for them is quite important, they are on record as having that as a business objective for #2 and also #1 in mirrorless for a while now.

Also, no one else reports for free this kind of data in any other region, so what are we supposed to do, ignore BCN all together as a data point?


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 5, 2019)

canonnews said:


> Also, no one else reports for free this kind of data in any other region, so what are we supposed to do, ignore BCN all together as a data point?


Exactly. If the data don't fit your predetermined conclusion, ignore them. 

You run a website, and that's like Internet 101 stuff, how can you not know this?


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## tmc784 (Jan 5, 2019)

I still prefer to use DSLR, it won't consume battery so fast.


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## Talys (Jan 5, 2019)

I think it's worth mentioning also that the much-maligned Canon 6D Mark II did relatively well, placing only 1 spot behind the brand new EOS R. That's in contrast to the much-lauded Nikon D850, which doesn't even make top 20.


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## AlanF (Jan 5, 2019)

Has anyone plotted the sales position vs price?


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## Jethro (Jan 6, 2019)

Talys said:


> I think it's worth mentioning also that the much-maligned Canon 6D Mark II did relatively well, placing only 1 spot behind the brand new EOS R. That's in contrast to the much-lauded Nikon D850, which doesn't even make top 20.


I saw that - I wondered if it was because the 6DII seemed to be at a reasonable discount for the last month or so? At least it was in Australia. I suspect that has a baring on individual months - but the 6DII seems to have been scoring well for some time.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 6, 2019)

Jethro said:


> ...but the 6DII seems to have been scoring well for some time.


How is that possible when is has no more DR than the original 6D?!? DPR and some other review sites made it abundantly clear how terrible that was, and yet people are still buying it. SMH.


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## Durf (Jan 6, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> How is that possible when is has no more DR than the original 6D?!? DPR and some other review sites made it abundantly clear how terrible that was, and yet people are still buying it. SMH.



I've been shooting with the 6D2 since it was released and still have yet to find one reason to toss it in the garbage.....perhaps I'm living in another reality because I love the camera and enjoy shooting with it.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 6, 2019)

I really think that all of the modern cameras are great, the photographer is really the 99% when it comes to the quality of the photographs. 

There are at least three types of camera buyers, those just beginning, or looking for the most bang for their buck. Canon is a recognized brand, and when they see the Canon entry level cameras priced below others, they go for Canon most of the time. Nikon is also a legendary camera company, but they are higher priced, and often have less options to choose from. Sony is a company you either love or hate. They have high prices, and not the best reputation as a company for customer service. That hurts them.

Then, there are enthusiasts who pour over reviews and specifications trying to find a model that has every feature they want, and also factor in the reputation of the company. They are a significant market for mid range cameras and a ton of expensive gadgets.

Finally, the pros, where reliability and service are paramount. Sony has a bigger struggle here, unlike their Video Camera division, the stills cameras got off to a very slow start, trying to push proprietary things like Memory Sticks never gained traction with pros, or even enthusiasts. Sony is still struggling with the pros, and could drop their pro stills camera at any time. That possibility keeps most pros away.


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## addola (Jan 6, 2019)

I bought an M50 this last December ($599 with kit lens), and $39 for EF-Adapter. My main camera is the original 6D, but I bought the M50 mostly for video. When it comes to FF mirrorless, I don't think I am ready to make the jump. I am waiting for 2nd generation of Canon, Nikon FF mirrorless since that would mean either much better cameras, or a good discount on EOS R. Also, Panasonic should release their FF mirrorless (L-Mount) which should shake things up, specially because Panasonic has better IBIS than Sony.


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## blackcoffee17 (Jan 6, 2019)

If i will read "censor" one more time i will jump out of the window


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## Don Haines (Jan 6, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> If i will read "censor" one more time i will jump out of the window



But you need to pair a good censor with flourite lens elements!


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## ashmadux (Jan 6, 2019)

Pape said:


> Yep t2i censor is still sharper than lenses .on right light conditions shouldnt be much difference to what ever camera


The t2i will always be able to produce BEAUTIFUL images. especially with a 70-200. just wow...luv it.


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## Don Haines (Jan 6, 2019)

Durf said:


> I've been shooting with the 6D2 since it was released and still have yet to find one reason to toss it in the garbage.....perhaps I'm living in another reality because I love the camera and enjoy shooting with it.



I spent the night shooting dancers in very poor light (ISO 12,800, F2.8, 1/60th) and it worked very well, even on people dressed mostly in black! People fixate on DR, but the reality is that nobody cares what the DR is on an out of focus picture.


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## Durf (Jan 6, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I spent the night shooting dancers in very poor light (ISO 12,800, F2.8, 1/60th) and it worked very well, even on people dressed mostly in black! People fixate on DR, but the reality is that nobody cares what the DR is on an out of focus picture.



Yes, the low light capability with it is actually quite impressive, especially with a good fast or semi-fast lens. 
I also do a lot of landscape photography with my 6D2 and have never run into a "life threatening whining I hate this camera situation" with the dynamic range that I couldn't work through or around. It's actually a very versatile and extremely capable camera for all types of shooting. The internet somehow has brainwashed a ridiculous negative bias in to many about this camera.


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## dak723 (Jan 6, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I spent the night shooting dancers in very poor light (ISO 12,800, F2.8, 1/60th) and it worked very well, even on people dressed mostly in black! People fixate on DR, but the reality is that nobody cares what the DR is on an out of focus picture.



People fixate on DR because that is what sites such as DPR fixate on, as well as forums such as this one and others than fixate on test results. Not only does nobody care what the DR is on an out of focus shot, but the mistake that most gadget-minded photographers make is that more DR is necessarily better. I am sure I am not the only photographer that finds that pretty much all cameras from the 6D generation on have plenty of DR for virtually all circumstances. With newer cameras with more DR, I find that I am increasing contrast in post production far more than I ever used to - in other words the newer cameras have more DR than is necessary for most circumstances. So, if you're not fixated on test results but rather judge your camera by *what the photos actually look like*, the 6D II is no doubt an excellent camera.

Just my opinions, of course.


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## Del Paso (Jan 6, 2019)

dak723 said:


> People fixate on DR because that is what sites such as DPR fixate on, as well as forums such as this one and others than fixate on test results. Not only does nobody care what the DR is on an out of focus shot, but the mistake that most gadget-minded photographers make is that more DR is necessarily better. I am sure I am not the only photographer that finds that pretty much all cameras from the 6D generation on have plenty of DR for virtually all circumstances. With newer cameras with more DR, I find that I am increasing contrast in post production far more than I ever used to - in other words the newer cameras have more DR than is necessary for most circumstances. So, if you're not fixated on test results but rather judge your camera by *what the photos actually look like*, the 6D II is no doubt an excellent camera.
> 
> Just my opinions, of course.



An opinion most users certainly share!


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## AlanF (Jan 7, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> If i will read "censor" one more time i will jump out of the window



Censor - and please post a selfie on the way down.


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## tmroper (Jan 7, 2019)

The M50 seems to be a very popular vlogging camera, putting the Canon brand in a good position to capture younger demographics, among other things. They know what they're doing.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 7, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> How is that possible when is has no more DR than the original 6D?!? DPR and some other review sites made it abundantly clear how terrible that was, and yet people are still buying it. SMH.



I own both the 6D and 6D2 and it's really hard to go back to the 6D once you start using the 6D2. It operates a lot faster. The UI is faster. Taking photos is faster. AF is faster. You can tap to focus as well as tap to shoot (though the tap to shoot was way too slow to be useful; it's so much slower than a smartphone tap to shoot). It makes it fun to shoot. It has a touchscreen. The screen is flip out and articulating so you can get really creative in your framing (no more lying in the dirt for that low-high shot). The 6D was almost worthless for video because the AF was awful (remember, 6D2 had dual pixel AF while the 6D had contrast).

And the resolution difference was noticeable.


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## JonSnow (Jan 7, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, that what you and I get for basing opinions on data, rather than ignoring facts in favor of our own personal realities.



Hahahaha.....


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## JonSnow (Jan 7, 2019)

jolyonralph said:


> You're right. Low-end APS-C DSLRs are still selling well, especially the bundles with two low-end lenses. And they'll continue to sell them while they can make a profit from them.
> 
> But that's not really the market we're interested in here, is it? The only FF camera in the top 10 is a mirrorless.



Indeed. Cheapish DSLR kits still sell.... but for how long.
I will maybe buy used EF lenses... but when i buy new lenses they will be RF.

RF is the future. No matter what the 60+ crowd says.


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## JonSnow (Jan 7, 2019)

tmroper said:


> The M50 seems to be a very popular vlogging camera, putting the Canon brand in a good position to capture younger demographics, among other things. They know what they're doing.



And it is cheap!
I may had bought one if the m-mount would not feel so dead
Or if it would be an open mount and there would be some sigma, tamron lenses for it.

I like that i can mount my FF glass directly on a canon aps-c DSLR camera. But it is not the same with a damn adapter.
So canon aps-c is dead for me as long as they do not make an RF-S mount and lenses.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> Indeed. Cheapish DSLR kits still sell.... but for how long.
> I will maybe buy used EF lenses... but when i buy new lenses they will be RF.
> 
> RF is the future. No matter what the 60+ crowd says.


So it's your contention that >60% of ILCs are bought by the '60+ crowd'? LOL. 

YKNJS.


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## AlanF (Jan 7, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> Indeed. Cheapish DSLR kits still sell.... but for how long.
> I will maybe buy used EF lenses... but when i buy new lenses they will be RF.
> 
> RF is the future. No matter what the 60+ crowd says.





neuroanatomist said:


> So it's your contention that >60% of ILCs are bought by the '60+ crowd'? LOL.
> 
> YKNJS.


Ageism like most offensive "isms" usually is a product of ignorance as well as prejudice.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Ageism like most offensive "isms" usually is a product of ignorance as well as prejudice.


Indeed. He's made such comments before, it's one reason I find his comments inane. I should probably just dismiss them as moronic musings, rather than replying to them.


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## Del Paso (Jan 7, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> Indeed. Cheapish DSLR kits still sell.... but for how long.
> I will maybe buy used EF lenses... but when i buy new lenses they will be RF.
> 
> RF is the future. No matter what the 60+ crowd says.



Young and dynamic people buy mirrorless, old farts buy DSLR, is that what you mean ?
A very intelligent point of view...


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## AlanF (Jan 7, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> So it's your contention that >60% of ILCs are bought by the '60+ crowd'? LOL.
> 
> YKNJS.


I googled YKNJS and found this 



LOL


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## JonSnow (Jan 7, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Indeed. He's made such comments before, it's one reason I find his comments inane. I should probably just dismiss them as moronic musings, rather than replying to them.



honestly... nobody cares about what you do.. old geezer. 

you spend half you life on a photography forum insulting other members.
for example go back a few years and look at the post you made about sony cameras, their users and your "predictions" for sony.
so who is moronic here is no question.... 

it is my observation that older folks tend to stick to DSLR cameras. younger embrace the mirrorless systems.



> Young and dynamic people buy mirrorless, old farts buy DSLR, is that what you mean



well i was at photokina 2018 and the majority of 60+ people had a DSLR camera. younger folks in the 20-30 had mostly mirrorless.
when i talk to old folks they never stop saying "EVF are not good, i want an optical VF".

several studys support that.



> The consumer study revealed that two-thirds of mirrorless camera users are within the age range of 18 – 35 years of age, and three-fifth of those who have the intention to purchase also fall within this age bracket.





> On top of the sales momentum, InfoTrends’ customer surveys demonstrate how strong innovation in the mirrorless space is continuing to attract a younger and more photo active ILC customer.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 7, 2019)

Pape said:


> Yep t2i censor is still sharper than lenses .on right light conditions shouldnt be much difference to what ever camera


The idea of sensor and lens sharpness, and one being 'higher' than the other, is a totally spurious concept and illustrates a complete lack of understanding of how system resolution is defined.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> so who is moronic here is no question....


Yes, thanks for making that clearer with each post you make.




JonSnow said:


> it is my observation that older folks tend to stick to DSLR cameras. younger embrace the mirrorless systems.


Some use both, and have done so for many years, across generations.

YKNJS.


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## Del Paso (Jan 7, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> honestly... nobody cares about what you do.. old geezer.
> 
> you spend half you life on a photography forum insulting other members.
> for example go back a few years and look at the post you made about sony cameras, their users and your "predictions" for sony.
> ...



I really admire the precision of your statistics and your knowledge of so many objective "studys"!


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## unfocused (Jan 7, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> honestly... nobody cares about what you do.. old geezer.
> 
> you spend half you life on a photography forum insulting other members.
> for example go back a few years and look at the post you made about sony cameras, their users and your "predictions" for sony.
> ...



The 60 and over crowd has the money and spends it on DSLRs. The 35 and under crowd uses cell phones until they have a kid, then they buy a mirrorless camera to preserve every moment of their little precious one's life on Facebook. Most will soon tire of the camera and go back to using a cell phone. Canon can be excused for catering to the crowd that is most loyal and has the most money.


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## Don Haines (Jan 7, 2019)

JonSnow said:


> well i was at photokina 2018 and the majority of 60+ people had a DSLR camera. younger folks in the 20-30 had mostly mirrorless.



And most of the people are between 30 and 60. What about them?

BTW, I have mirrorless and I have DSLR. I have Canon, Nikon, Olympus, and Leica. I have superzoom, and I shoot with my phone. I firmly believe that the majority of people on this forum do not fit neatly into a pigeon hole. Many of us, and particularly the pros, use the right tool for the job.


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## fentiger (Jan 7, 2019)

One day jon, you will be a old fart, so keep hold of that OVF camera!


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## jolyonralph (Jan 7, 2019)

Although I'm not quite in the old fart category yet (40s) one of the reasons I've switched to mirrorless is that as my eyesight gets worse I find being able to review images inside the EVF (which is adjusted for my eyes) so much easier than having to whip out reading glasses and use the rear display. 

For that reason, and that reason alone, I'm never going to buy another DSLR.


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## Kharan (Jan 7, 2019)

canonnews said:


> BCN essentially tells us the Japan market, which per capita is the largest market for cameras.
> 
> Overall it's only around 12% of the market, but it's also the only market that sells more mirrorless than DSLR's right now. so it's potentially a look into the future. You can also say that BCN looks at 6% of the entire global market with 100% accuracy.
> 
> ...



If the market was homogeneous worldwide, then yes, BCN would be a good source of information to extrapolate from. But it isn't, at all*, and so people make wrong assumptions because they base them on incomplete data. What's worse, though, is that what BCN publishes is very partial information. They make sales rankings for each month of the year, but never list the number of units or market share percentages, and their EOY rankings are extremely sparse in data too, only giving general market share percentages, so that it's impossible to build a complete picture even if both data sets are combined.

Canon can certainly assign more importance to Japan or whatever market they prefer. That says absolutely *nothing *about how their products are selling in other regions of the world. In East Asia, for example, there are wild differences from country to country - China is crazy about 35mm DSLRs, in South Korea Sony is king, in Thailand Fujifilm have the #1 spot, whereas Vietnam reflects the Japanese market somewhat. Base any far-reaching conclusions out of any of these countries and you'll get a completely unrealistic picture of worldwide sales.

When it comes to accurate numbers, it's CIPA or bust. One can certainly use other sources to complement this, but CIPA reports still constitute the only authoritative sales information available to non-insiders.

*Just look at Olympus - they were #1 in Japan for a couple of years with their PEN series, but could only gain a foothold in Europe and the US with the OM-D's... which, E-M10 excepted, sell in much lower volumes in Japan  Add DSLRs and different formats into the mix, and things get complicated very quickly.


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## unfocused (Jan 7, 2019)

canonnews said:


> ...Also, no one else reports for free this kind of data in any other region, so what are we supposed to do, ignore BCN all together as a data point?



I know this is harsh, but honestly, if you are running a website where your goal is to cover "Canon News" as accurately and thoroughly as possible, it's not really a valid excuse that you can't get needed statistical information without paying for it. If you haven't factored in the cost of the resources and information you need to be credible, perhaps your business model is flawed.

A better statement would be: This information is released to the public and accurately reports what it claims to report. We think it is worth covering, even though it is incomplete information, but we caution readers not to attempt to extrapolate this data to other markets.


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## tmroper (Jan 7, 2019)

unfocused said:


> The 60 and over crowd has the money and spends it on DSLRs. The 35 and under crowd uses cell phones until they have a kid, then they buy a mirrorless camera to preserve every moment of their little precious one's life on Facebook. Most will soon tire of the camera and go back to using a cell phone. Canon can be excused for catering to the crowd that is most loyal and has the most money.


And most serious young photographers prefer film anyway.


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## dirtyvu (Jan 7, 2019)

Kharan said:


> If the market was homogeneous worldwide, then yes, BCN would be a good source of information to extrapolate from. But it isn't, at all*, and so people make wrong assumptions because they base them on incomplete data. What's worse, though, is that what BCN publishes is very partial information. They make sales rankings for each month of the year, but never list the number of units or market share percentages, and their EOY rankings are extremely sparse in data too, only giving general market share percentages, so that it's impossible to build a complete picture even if both data sets are combined.
> 
> Canon can certainly assign more importance to Japan or whatever market they prefer. That says absolutely *nothing *about how their products are selling in other regions of the world. In East Asia, for example, there are wild differences from country to country - China is crazy about 35mm DSLRs, in South Korea Sony is king, in Thailand Fujifilm have the #1 spot, whereas Vietnam reflects the Japanese market somewhat. Base any far-reaching conclusions out of any of these countries and you'll get a completely unrealistic picture of worldwide sales.
> 
> ...



it's not their job to be all comprehensive and do all the extensive research. they report news as it comes in. it's not even their job to verify whether any of the information is correct. the only verification is if the source is a legitimate organization. you can't expect them to verify whether that organization measured it properly.


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## maves (Jan 7, 2019)

December figures are often skewed because of the christmas lead-up. Entry level kits are often bought as gifts, whereas people buying high level gear for themselves are likely to hold off until after the break due to financial constraints of christmas.


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## AlanF (Jan 8, 2019)

tmroper said:


> And most serious young photographers prefer film anyway.


If you define "serious" as "preferring film", then you are correct. For any other definition of "serious". I very much doubt if film is the majority preference.


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## Don Haines (Jan 8, 2019)

tmroper said:


> And most serious young photographers prefer film anyway.



If I told people at work that I was using film and they had to wait for processing and printing, I would get shot, and not with a camera!

A real photographer does what the job requires, not what is trendy or artsy.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 8, 2019)

tmroper said:


> And most serious young photographers(most people at college or uni who are doing an art major but aren't in any way artistic think they can be a legitimate creative 'artist' who's "medium is film") prefer film anyway.



Haven't seen an original idea from any of them in forty years, can you point me to anything to contradict that? I'd love to think there is another generation of actual artists using photography out there, all I end up seeing are burnt negatives, Holgaesque reboots, 'faux' instagram filters (for irony you understand), and hold over Polaroid/Instax crap.


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## Kharan (Jan 8, 2019)

dirtyvu said:


> it's not their job to be all comprehensive and do all the extensive research. they report news as it comes in. it's not even their job to verify whether any of the information is correct. the only verification is if the source is a legitimate organization. you can't expect them to verify whether that organization measured it properly.



I'm not criticizing the news reporting (of Canon Rumors, BTW, I have no idea what "Canon News" is), I'm criticizing the editorializing that goes along with it. Every rumor site will try to paint things in a positive light for their chosen brand, and that's absolutely natural, but to then draw pig-headed conclusions from highly incomplete data is just *wrong*. It doesn't matter whether it's for Sony, Nikon, Canon or Pentax - parsing current and past sales is pretty difficult already, and all this poppycock making the rounds only makes it harder. Too many people are repeating baseless stuff based only on hearsay, or even worse, plainly fantasizing.


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## tmroper (Jan 8, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Haven't seen an original idea from any of them in forty years, can you point me to anything to contradict that? I'd love to think there is another generation of actual artists using photography out there, all I end up seeing are burnt negatives, Holgaesque reboots, 'faux' instagram filters (for irony you understand), and hold over Polaroid/Instax crap.


I may have been exaggerating a bit, but I'd say, right off the top of my head, check out: Emily Soto, Luo Yang (and her book "Girls"), Reed Klass (young guy in Montana still in college I think), Lina Bessonova (large format) and Jamie Hawkesworth. Maybe their ideas aren't "original" enough for you, but they're doing good, solid work on film around the globe. There are many others, and I find it very exiciting to see how international shooting film is today. So maybe lay the cynacism aside for a sec, and have a look. You might be pleasantly surprised.
(Full disclaimer, though: I shoot a lot of film these days, too, so I'm a little biased).


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## Durf (Jan 8, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> If I told people at work that I was using film and they had to wait for processing and printing, I would get shot, and not with a camera!
> 
> A real photographer does what the job requires, not what is trendy or artsy.



Some younger folks don't even know what film is


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## Pape (Jan 8, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> The idea of sensor and lens sharpness, and one being 'higher' than the other, is a totally spurious concept and illustrates a complete lack of understanding of how system resolution is defined.



st: 758612, member: 3398"]The idea of sensor and lens sharpness, and one being 'higher' than the other, is a totally spurious concept and illustrates a complete lack of understanding of how system resolution is defined.[/QUOTE]

Yes new sensors are bit more lens friendly but i dont think they developed so much from t2i that it would be easy see difference?


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## dirtyvu (Jan 8, 2019)

Kharan said:


> I'm not criticizing the news reporting (of Canon Rumors, BTW, I have no idea what "Canon News" is), I'm criticizing the editorializing that goes along with it. Every rumor site will try to paint things in a positive light for their chosen brand, and that's absolutely natural, but to then draw pig-headed conclusions from highly incomplete data is just *wrong*. It doesn't matter whether it's for Sony, Nikon, Canon or Pentax - parsing current and past sales is pretty difficult already, and all this poppycock making the rounds only makes it harder. Too many people are repeating baseless stuff based only on hearsay, or even worse, plainly fantasizing.



Are you saying the sales chart is a rumor?

And where is the editorialization? They just read it off the chart. 

"Canon continues to dominate the top 20 ["dominate" is the closest to editorialization but 9 out of 19 are Canon so "dominate" is a reasonable word when the top 20 is 50% Canon]. The Canon EOS M50 continues to be a big seller for Canon, holding down the #3 and #4 spots on the list. The Canon EOS R is sitting in 13th place, one spot ahead of the Canon EOS 6D Mark II. the Z 6 is sitting in 39th spot for the month. The A7 III is sitting at #10, which is the best spot for a full frame mirrorless camera." None of this is editorialization. It's straight off the chart. If you view it as editorialization, it's strictly your connotative interpretation of their words.


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## canonnews (Jan 9, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I know this is harsh, but honestly, if you are running a website where your goal is to cover "Canon News" as accurately and thoroughly as possible, it's not really a valid excuse that you can't get needed statistical information without paying for it. If you haven't factored in the cost of the resources and information you need to be credible, perhaps your business model is flawed.
> 
> A better statement would be: This information is released to the public and accurately reports what it claims to report. We think it is worth covering, even though it is incomplete information, but we caution readers not to attempt to extrapolate this data to other markets.



*eyeroll*

for starters, we state in every article what BCN is. if you can't read that and figure it out then the problem isn't mine.

for instance we stated on this article:

"For those unaware, BCN is a major sales reporting agency in Japan, they tally up more than half of all sales receipts for cameras, and other goods and report on the sales results. It's a highly accurate look at the Japan marketplace, and one of the only views we have of any market in the world. "

that should suffice for even you.

Craig in his article (this one) states:

"These sales charts are for Japan only, but they’re very accurate. "

I do believe both articles, mine and Craig's.. cover off the fact that BCN simply reports on Japan.


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## canonnews (Jan 9, 2019)

Kharan said:


> If the market was homogeneous worldwide, then yes, BCN would be a good source of information to extrapolate from. But it isn't, at all*, and so people make wrong assumptions because they base them on incomplete data. What's worse, though, is that what BCN publishes is very partial information. They make sales rankings for each month of the year, but never list the number of units or market share percentages, and their EOY rankings are extremely sparse in data too, only giving general market share percentages, so that it's impossible to build a complete picture even if both data sets are combined.
> 
> Canon can certainly assign more importance to Japan or whatever market they prefer. That says absolutely *nothing *about how their products are selling in other regions of the world. In East Asia, for example, there are wild differences from country to country - China is crazy about 35mm DSLRs, in South Korea Sony is king, in Thailand Fujifilm have the #1 spot, whereas Vietnam reflects the Japanese market somewhat. Base any far-reaching conclusions out of any of these countries and you'll get a completely unrealistic picture of worldwide sales.
> 
> ...



actually, CIPA is not accurate, and it's too long of an explanation to get into here, but CIPA show shipments, while BCN shows sales. Shipments <> Sales. CIPA is good for trending and spotting variations such as mass shipments with new products, but it has a pretty vague relationship otherwise.

then there's the matter of value, which is FOB and a very loose relationship to the actual sale value, which can widely vary between time of year, and manufacturer.


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 9, 2019)

canonnews said:


> actually, CIPA is not accurate, and it's too long of an explanation to get into here, but CIPA show shipments, while BCN shows sales. Shipments <> Sales. CIPA is good for trending and spotting variations such as mass shipments with new products, but it has a pretty vague relationship otherwise.
> 
> then there's the matter of value, which is FOB and a very loose relationship to the actual sale value, which can widely vary between time of year, and manufacturer.


Independent of the sales vs. shipments issue, the most relevant difference here is that BCN reports manufacturer-specific data, whereas CIPA does not.

With some work, it’s possible to roughly estimate the state of the global market by looking at the CIPA data and the IR reports of the major manufacturers (but that will always be rough because of the differences in how manufacturers report their data, e.g. units vs. revenue, whether lenses are included, offset fiscal years, etc.). Or one could buy the periodic reports from IDC or GfK..


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## Ivan Muller (Jan 10, 2019)

brianboru said:


> Mostly agreed. My 5D mk III is great and takes wonderful portraits when I want full frame and have the room to take the "big-bag". It's going to take probably five years for the R to be tempting. My guess is whenever the unannounced "high-end" R is released and then three or four years after that when it's at half it's introductory price.
> 
> With that said - I also have an M 50 and love it - handling is great, image quality is up to snuff and the native lenses are interesting and fun (I have them all except the new 32mm which I'll pick up at some point.) I picked up the M50 for a recent trip and the ability to put it and two lenses in my murse was great - one of which is always the phenomenal EF-M 11-22. Given my love of the kit, I do wish the BCN numbers had a single count for the two colors of the M50. Sagrada Família - M50 + EF-M 11-22
> 
> I have found a fun use for my old 40D and 7D - passing them onto my oldest son who is taking some damn good portraits proving that ten and twelve year old cameras can still make art.



Nice shot of the Sagrada...I was there in 2003 just before the invasion of Irak? I think...my wife and I have always said that we would like to go back when its completed or nearly so...if I'm still alive by then of course....

If you like the M50 you will love the R...I have the M6 and tried to use it as much as I can even when I thought the 6D would be better....but now that I have the R I have lost a little bit of my love for the small mirrorless mainly because of its poor image quality above 800/1600...However the R with the 40 pancake on is quite small and compact and the image quality is in another league! The R is so much nicer than my old 6D and also my short lived 6D2...I never thought mirrorless could be so nice even though I had glimpses what mirrorless can do with the M6 ...


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## canonnews (Jan 10, 2019)

unfocused said:


> *eyeroll* right back at you.
> 
> Way to completely ignore my comment and change the subject.
> 
> ...



To get into this conversion would derail this thread, but there's zero in the way of a credible business case to invest in such an investment the ROI would fractions of cents on the dollar.

We have thought about it, and even thought about spending money with chipworks at the same time, however, there's just not the ROI in it, so it's just not happening.

To be frank the rest of your response was inappropriate for this thread (and any on this website).


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## Don Haines (Jan 10, 2019)

This discussion is as easy to follow as the Swedish Chef


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## Talys (Jan 10, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Honestly, I get a little tired of every Tom, Dick and Harry who decides they want to start a website to monetize their hobby by claiming they are covering "news" and then get offended because people expect them to invest some resources to do the job they say they are doing.



You know, you can You can just ignore websites you're not interested in, right?

News aggregate websites are valuable because they save you from having to go to dozens of other primary sources to dig up news. Absents aggregators, how many of us would actually have gone to BCN? Or even read Canon press releases? 

If a site bugs you, there is a pretty easy solution... spend your time elsewhere  My take on it: life is too short to be bothered by things that do not negatively impact me or anyone, over which I have no control.


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## unfocused (Jan 10, 2019)

canonnews said:


> ...but there's zero in the way of a credible business case to invest in such an investment the ROI would fractions of cents on the dollar.
> 
> We have thought about it, and even thought about spending money with chipworks at the same time, however, there's just not the ROI in it, so it's just not happening...



That's a perfectly understandable position. Could have saved a lot of time by just saying that at the outset.


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## Ozarker (Jan 10, 2019)

unfocused said:


> The 60 and over crowd has the money and spends it on DSLRs. The 35 and under crowd uses cell phones until they have a kid, then they buy a mirrorless camera to preserve every moment of their little precious one's life on Facebook. Most will soon tire of the camera and go back to using a cell phone. Canon can be excused for catering to the crowd that is most loyal and has the most money.


Damn straight. If I had a pocket that didn't have money in it... well, I'd cut it off!


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## Ozarker (Jan 10, 2019)

Durf said:


> Some younger folks don't even know what film is


Isn't that one of those "dental dam" thingies?


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## Durf (Jan 11, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Isn't that one of those "dental dam" thingies?



It's the grime on the roof of your mouth after eating a bowl of Capn' Crunch


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## stevelee (Jan 11, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> If i will read "censor" one more time i will jump out of the window


They mean "censer." It adds a sense of atmosphere. Also, scents.


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 11, 2019)

gdanmitchell said:


> A qualifier. First, I use a mirrorless camera system (from Fujifilm) for about half of my photography, and I use a DSLR system from Canon for the other half. Second, while the "experts" (or fans?) have been wrong about the earlier state of mirrorless penetration of the high end market, those who have instead predicted that the future lies with mirrorless are almost certainly right. Clearly the major camera companies think so.



Mirrorless are definitely the future, DSLRs were always a transient technology IMO. But even ML cameras were and are awkward electro-mechanical hybrids, so they are not mature. Fast electronic shutters are coming up now, but IBIS as a mechanical system is a real step back. Replacing mirror slappers by sensor shakers isn't a brillant move. A mature ML camera would include on-sensor image stabilization like in better smartphones and use electronic shutter only. Another important move would be the introduction of a mature light-field technology so there is no AF drive needed anymore. All those items summed up in a pure non-mechanical system would make the first really mature digital camera system.

But as long as DLRS serve me better in applications such as wildlife, I am happy to use them. Btw I love pure mechanical cameras, but they were made for film photography.


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 11, 2019)

stevelee said:


> They mean "censer." It adds a sense of atmosphere. Also, scents.


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 11, 2019)

Durf said:


> I think Canon would make a lot of money if they'd spring a decked out 7D Mark iii upon us! I know I'd buy one (if it has a flip out screen)


I'd join you, so we are already two - the potential market is growing


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## justaCanonuser (Jan 11, 2019)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I really think that all of the modern cameras are great, the photographer is really the 99% when it comes to the quality of the photographs.



You nailed it, it's all about the brain (or the lack of it) behind the camera. A skilled photographer can take a primitive pinhole camera and make some good images with it.


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## Durf (Jan 12, 2019)

justaCanonuser said:


> I'd join you, so we are already two - the potential market is growing



I think we're important enough for Canon to now get this 7D3 in to production asap. (as long as it has a flip screen)


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## brianboru (Jan 12, 2019)

Ivan Muller said:


> Nice shot of the Sagrada...I was there in 2003 just before the invasion of Irak? I think...my wife and I have always said that we would like to go back when its completed or nearly so...if I'm still alive by then of course....
> 
> If you like the M50 you will love the R...I have the M6 and tried to use it as much as I can even when I thought the 6D would be better....but now that I have the R I have lost a little bit of my love for the small mirrorless mainly because of its poor image quality above 800/1600...However the R with the 40 pancake on is quite small and compact and the image quality is in another league! The R is so much nicer than my old 6D and also my short lived 6D2...I never thought mirrorless could be so nice even though I had glimpses what mirrorless can do with the M6 ...



Thank you, Ivan! The Sagrada is supposed to be done in 2026 for the 100th anniversary of Gaudí's death. There is some hope that is accurate - supposedly advances in 3D modeling and printing have allowed the structure to be finalized instead of a build-a-bit and spend a long time figuring out what what has to be adjusted process. Of course, on a 13 decade schedule, if they are within a year or two I'll still be impressed.

Okay, I can be tempted by the "R".

-- Brian


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## mizote (Jan 12, 2019)

Will ever exist a canon camera for lefthanders...


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## Valvebounce (Jan 13, 2019)

Hi Mizote. 
Welcome to the forum. 
If you search the forums you should (might?) find all the previous versions of this quandary with all the reasons it is highly unlikely to happen! This has been thrashed to death before! 

Cheers, Graham. 



mizote said:


> Will ever exist a canon camera for lefthanders...


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## yungfat (Jan 19, 2019)

I think Canon know how to made a camera that consumer like rather than what reviewer like. 

Cheers...


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## Pape (Jan 19, 2019)

yungfat said:


> I think Canon know how to made a camera that consumer like rather than what reviewer like.
> 
> Cheers...


yeah easy to shoot low megapixel cameras with lenses what are optimized to work full aperture
They dont look good on testbench but who carryes test bench on field.


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## Bennymiata (Jan 19, 2019)

mizote said:


> Will ever exist a canon camera for lefthanders...



You'll have to go back to the late 1950's - early 60's. Exacta made all their cameras left handed.
Pure metal and mechanics in this German made camera. Not even a light meter in it. You used a hand-held meter.
Of course, auto-focus wasn't even thought about, let alone invented.
I was given one when I was 11, back in the 60's. Wish I still had it.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 19, 2019)

mizote said:


> Will ever exist a canon camera for lefthanders...


I'm a left hander, but have adapted some time in the past umpteen years to do some things right handed. Shooting (both rifle and camera, but left handed with pistol, batting baseball left handed or right handed, but can only throw left handed, kick a football with right foot, write, eat, and most other things left handed.

I seem to be a bit of a hybrid, I wonder if others are like me.

In any event, I don't think I could even use a camera left handed, I'm too set in my ways.


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