# Lots of New mirrorless and DSLR cameras in the pipeline



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 14, 2018)

> Nokishita has released a new list of unreleases Canon gear that has appeared for certification.
> 
> *K433*
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## naylor83 (Sep 14, 2018)

Ergo, a 26 megapixel full-frame mirrorless coming within one year? Could it be a higher speed action-oriented camera? Better video capabilities?


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## Labdoc (Sep 14, 2018)

Looks like no new 5DsR in the pipeline, very disappointing. Was hoping for a high MP pro MLC. Tempted by the new 50 1.2 but not enough to replace the 5D4 or 5DsR.


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## Sharp (Sep 14, 2018)

*K437* : too early for a 5D markV, but maybe a 5Ds mark4?


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## zim (Sep 14, 2018)

Six cameras released in one year excluding powershots! 
Is this unprecedented?
Lots of rebellies must be getting rid of their stock of mirrors


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## mensaf (Sep 14, 2018)

Probably the EOS R 'pro' that was initially rumored to be released alongside the one we just got. I'm going to hold out on any new purchases until we get some video specs from that.

Fingers crossed one of those powershots is a G7X successor and coming like...next week...


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## razorzec (Sep 14, 2018)

It seems to me Canon is slowly relegating EF mount into entry level and low mid end range while the more expensive models go to RF mirrorless. it makes a sense since EOS R can use any EF lenses in addition to its superior RF line. 

an RF-mount 26MP sounds like a lower tier EOS R to me with no Canon Log and 10 bit recording. I can't see them releasing a fast shooting Pro Grade model within a year yet.


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## amorse (Sep 14, 2018)

So maybe Canon does see the EOS R as a 5D IV equivalent camera rather than a 6D equivalent camera. I was really hoping for a 5DS/R equivalent mirrorless arriving quickly in the pipeline.


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## jebrady03 (Sep 14, 2018)

Some disagree with me when I say that Canon is at the top of the food chain when it comes to knowing how to segment their products. But even this set of leaked specs proves just how far they'll go to artificially segment their products. Anyone know what I'm referring to?
The damn battery indicator! Some of the cameras (lower-tier, presumably) have a 4-level battery indicator while some have a 6-level battery indicator. Come the f*** on, Canon! Could you BE a touch more pedantic? 
Not to hold Sony up as some paragon of camera design, but everything, from their lowly A5100 up to the A9 all display the percent left of the battery. How hard is that to implement so you don't have to dive into the menus to find it? Seems like an exact measure would be ideal yet Canon (and Nikon) want to stick with a dumb image of a battery with segments on it.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 14, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> Some disagree with me when I say that Canon is at the top of the food chain when it comes to knowing how to segment their products. But even this set of leaked specs proves just how far they'll go to artificially segment their products. Anyone know what I'm referring to?
> The damn battery indicator! Some of the cameras (lower-tier, presumably) have a 4-level battery indicator while some have a 6-level battery indicator. Come the f*** on, Canon! Could you BE a touch more pedantic?
> Not to hold Sony up as some paragon of camera design, but everything, from their lowly A5100 up to the A9 all display the percent left of the battery. How hard is that to implement so you don't have to dive into the menus to find it? Seems like an exact measure would be ideal yet Canon (and Nikon) want to stick with a dumb image of a battery with segments on it.



Indicator, indicator on the wall, which (camera) is the most likely of them all...


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## WilliamJ (Sep 14, 2018)

I would love the 26mp full frame mirorless to be a higher speed, higher end model with better high iso and video specs, reduced crop factor, etc but I suspect this will be a lower end 6D ii equivelant. 

Bear in mind the R is a mirorless 5D IV with better codec, flip screen, except for dual card slots and FPS/continuous af. Even thought it’s priced less than 5D IV, canon has stated a couple of times it’s a 5D level camera, so a lower end model is likely I think.


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## transpo1 (Sep 14, 2018)

Surprised they’re not doing a higher MP version early next year. Based on the forum comments, a lot of people would buy. They should also do a low MP, high ISO version for video folks equal to the A7SII or III (when it’s released).


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## Cryve (Sep 14, 2018)

I seems like none of the certifications point at a 90d or 7d iii. Does that mean we wont be getting them in 2019?


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## GaryUK (Sep 14, 2018)

K433: 6240 x 4160. Same res as a 6Dii. So maybe nothing new.

K437: 6960 × 4640 Not the same as a 5D4 (6750 x 4500)

So maybe a new sensor will arrive, perhaps K437 = 5D5.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 14, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Surprised they’re not doing a higher MP version early next year. Based on the forum comments, a lot of people would buy. They should also do a low MP, high ISO version for video folks equal to the A7SII or III (when it’s released).



I'd love to have also a lower MP, higher ISO FF camera for stills (and video) available. Okay, I can shoot with a high MP sensor MRAW or even SRAW, Canon's smaller RAWs are always impressively good. But the 22 MP only of my old 5D3 deliver so much detail that this is sufficient for excellent A3 prints. Btw I know one still living in Nikon's old 12 MP world and producing very good A3 prints from those cameras. You can sell her prints to people as results of much higher MP cameras, and they swallow it. The only downside of such cameras is that you have no room for cropping, of course.

The most funny thing is that many people seem to use their 40+ MP Sonys mainly for posting in Instagram. Very intelligent use of technology


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## Memirsbrunnr (Sep 14, 2018)

Sharp said:


> *K437* : too early for a 5D markV, but maybe a 5Ds mark4?


wouldn't that logically be named 5Ds mark2 or less likely 5Ds mark5? Mark 4 makes no sense in any counting system


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 14, 2018)

Cryve said:


> I seems like none of the certifications point at a 90d or 7d iii. Does that mean we wont be getting them in 2019?


Looking back how long it took Canon to come up with the 7D II, it would surprise me to see a Mk III version before the 2020s.


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## nchoh (Sep 14, 2018)

Cryve said:


> I seems like none of the certifications point at a 90d or 7d iii. Does that mean we wont be getting them in 2019?



It looks like the SW guys at Canon will be having their hands full for the next 2 years at least bumping up the performance of their mirrorless offerings. I would bet not.


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## stevewhitemd (Sep 14, 2018)

There is one hard-stop here: if Canon wants the R series to be taken seriously, they need a 1DX2 equivalent before the 2020 Tokyo Olympic Games. That is a showcase not just for the athletes but also for the photographers; Nikon, Canon and Sony all out-do themselves for the pro community. And it's on their home-turf. It would be embarrassing if Nikon had the Z7-mark2 and Sony had the A9iv out there while Canon didn't have an ultimate R ready to go.

I'd expect the CPS ready room to have rows and rows of the "1Rx" (have to call it something) with plenty of fast, action-driven RF lenses -- a 70-200 f/2.8, a 400 f2/.8, etc. You don't want to adapt EF lenses to your 1Rx at the Olympics, do you?

So Canon can have their 5D4-minus R, and their 6D2 equivalent R, etc., and build out the line in 2019. But for the Olympics they'd better be ready with the camera the pros want to use.


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## amorse (Sep 14, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Surprised they’re not doing a higher MP version early next year. Based on the forum comments, a lot of people would buy. They should also do a low MP, high ISO version for video folks equal to the A7SII or III (when it’s released).


I would be interested in one, but I wonder how well the 5DS and 5DSR actually sold or would sell today..

When Canon released those cameras there wasn't a lot of high-MP competition, but now there are a number of cameras that are pretty close in resolution, but have faster frame rates and better low light performance (or at the very least much higher ISO options). Since the market space for that kind of product is a bit more crowded than it was in 2015, I wonder if Canon sees that as a real opportunity. 

I'd love one, don't get me wrong, but I do wonder how much market space exists for it.


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## Deleted member 381098 (Sep 14, 2018)

I'm looking forward to the APS-C mirrorless. I've been holding on to a bunch of lenses waiting and hoping for this. This finally gives me the confidence to dive into the M5 and upgrade when the new one comes out next year.


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## mensaf (Sep 14, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Surprised they’re not doing a higher MP version early next year. Based on the forum comments, a lot of people would buy. They should also do a low MP, high ISO version for video folks equal to the A7SII or III (when it’s released).


I thought this was going to happen right off the bat after they announced the video focus of future products. If they A7SIII isn't plagued with overheating issues and Canon doesn't have an answer for it by the time it's out, I might have to make the jump. A mirrorless 1DC should be a no brainer, just not at the insane price point of the first one.


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## Mikehit (Sep 14, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> Looking back how long it took Canon to come up with the 7D II, it would surprise me to see a Mk III version before the 2020s.


The 7D2 was delayed about a year because (if I recall correctly) they took a late decision incorporate more of the 5D/1Dx technology - if that were true I would look on that as taking up some of the cycle time to 7D3.


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## LDS (Sep 14, 2018)

amorse said:


> I would be interested in one, but I wonder how well the 5DS and 5DSR actually sold or would sell today..



I'm sure not a few of the newer T/S lenses ended up on one of those cameras. Maybe not the cameras that make the interweb abuzz - fps and high ISO may not really be what you look for in studio work, landscapes, architecture, etc. where also the availability of some lenses (11-24, tilt and shift....) matters more. Sure, they're not mainstream cameras.


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## jebrady03 (Sep 14, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Surprised they’re not doing a higher MP version early next year.


They're already struggling with getting data off the sensor of the EOS R, as evidenced by the worst-in-class FPS, worst-in-class 4K, worst-in-class AF tracking with continuous AF, etc. Upping the megapixels will simply compound this issue. DPAF is absolutely fantastic and incredibly novel, but it's hamstringing the hell out of their cameras.


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## KenRockwell (Sep 14, 2018)

Canon EOS Rs = high MP mirrorless

Canon EOS Rt = lower res, high FPS mirrorless


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## Mikehit (Sep 14, 2018)

stevewhitemd said:


> There is one hard-stop here: if Canon wants the R series to be taken seriously, they need a 1DX2 equivalent before the 2020 Tokyo Olympic Games. That is a showcase not just for the athletes but also for the photographers; Nikon, Canon and Sony all out-do themselves for the pro community. And it's on their home-turf. It would be embarrassing if Nikon had the Z7-mark2 and Sony had the A9iv out there while Canon didn't have an ultimate R ready to go.
> 
> I'd expect the CPS ready room to have rows and rows of the "1Rx" (have to call it something) with plenty of fast, action-driven RF lenses -- a 70-200 f/2.8, a 400 f2/.8, etc. You don't want to adapt EF lenses to your 1Rx at the Olympics, do you?
> 
> So Canon can have their 5D4-minus R, and their 6D2 equivalent R, etc., and build out the line in 2019. But for the Olympics they'd better be ready with the camera the pros want to use.



I am not sure I would call it a hard stop. Even Sony have only just released in the A9 a mirrorless with AF capability anywhere near the Canon 1Dx2 so to expect Canon to get anywhere near that with their second mirrorless FF body is wishful thinking: and pro who needs the 1Dx2 they will definitely not be jumping to the mirrorless equivalent. 

Sony with an A9iv by then....??? That wold be a definite reason to not buy Sony if they are cycling their bodies that quickly


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## jebrady03 (Sep 14, 2018)

stevewhitemd said:


> There is one hard-stop here: if Canon wants the R series to be taken seriously, they need a 1DX2 equivalent before the 2020 Tokyo Olympic Games.


I don't see it happening. As I mentioned in another reply, they're already struggling with getting info off the sensor in a reasonable amount of time. There's NO WAY they'll be able to improve processing speed and power to the point that DPAF could support 20 FPS or more and I don't think there's any way they wouldn't put their marquee AF technology (DPAF) into their marquee body.
Compounding that issue is a lack of native telephoto lenses.
I see them beating the DSLR drum until the completion of the 2020 games, and maybe even 2022 or 2024. But don't worry, there are enough folks who bleed Canon red that it won't be a problem for them.


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## kanehi (Sep 14, 2018)

KenRockwell said:


> Canon EOS Rs = high MP mirrorless
> 
> Canon EOS Rt = lower res, high FPS mirrorless


I have the EOS RT with the pellicle mirror film camera. Maybe Canon will not use the same model series.


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## amorse (Sep 14, 2018)

LDS said:


> I'm sure not a few of the newer T/S lenses ended up on one of those cameras. Maybe not the cameras that make the interweb abuzz - fps and high ISO may not really be what you look for in studio work, landscapes, architecture, etc. where also the availability of some lenses (11-24, tilt and shift....) matters more. Sure, they're not mainstream cameras.


Definitely agreed - it's a specialty product. And being a specialty product, Canon may not expect to move huge numbers of the camera making it a lower priority than other bodies for establishment of a mirrorless equivalent. The fact that the 5DS/SR didn't change price all that much over its lifespan would suggest to me that they're not looking to clear out inventory any time soon.

It just means we could be waiting for a while for a higher resolution FF mirrorless camera. Although, there was that interview with a Canon executive who noted that there is an uptick in demand for high-MP bodies...


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## KenRockwell (Sep 14, 2018)

kanehi said:


> I have the EOS RT with the pellicle mirror film camera. Maybe Canon will not use the same model series.



They’ve re-used names before...The original film EOS M was a manual focus only budget EOS for non-Japan/North American markets.


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## amorse (Sep 14, 2018)

Sharp said:


> *K437* : too early for a 5D markV, but maybe a 5Ds mark4?


I don't know, that could be a 5D V - release was projected at 2019 or later, and if you said release late 2019 to mid-2020, that would be pretty close to the typical release cycle for 5D series cameras - 5DI was 2005Q3, 5DII was 2008Q4 (3 yr 1 quarter), 5DIII was 2012Q1 (3 yr 2 quarter) 5DIV was 2016Q3 (4 yr, 2 quarter). 

Really anywhere from Q4 2019 to Q1 2021 would be in line with past release cycles I think. Interesting to me that there are no 5DS/SR resolution sensors on that list, but there are potential replacements for 5DIV.


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## tron (Sep 14, 2018)

amorse said:


> I would be interested in one, but I wonder how well the 5DS and 5DSR actually sold or would sell today..
> 
> When Canon released those cameras there wasn't a lot of high-MP competition, but now there are a number of cameras that are pretty close in resolution, but have faster frame rates and better low light performance (or at the very least much higher ISO options). Since the market space for that kind of product is a bit more crowded than it was in 2015, I wonder if Canon sees that as a real opportunity.
> 
> I'd love one, don't get me wrong, but I do wonder how much market space exists for it.


It is the same as with cameras with less mpixels. If you have invested in Canon lenses it is Canon for you. I do have the 5DsR and I am satisfied by it. I would upgrade it to a 5DsRMKII without a second thought...


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## tron (Sep 14, 2018)

amorse said:


> I don't know, that could be a 5D V - release was projected at 2019 or later, and if you said release late 2019 to mid-2020, that would be pretty close to the typical release cycle for 5D series cameras - 5DI was 2005Q3, 5DII was 2008Q4 (3 yr 1 quarter), 5DIII was 2012Q1 (3 yr 2 quarter) 5DIV was 2016Q3 (4 yr, 2 quarter).
> 
> Really anywhere from Q4 2019 to Q1 2021 would be in line with past release cycles I think. Interesting to me that there are no 5DS/SR resolution sensors on that list, but there are potential replacements for 5DIV.


By keeping the pixel count close to 5DIV's pixel count they have the opportunity to improve upon other issues like fps, DR, low and high ISO noise, etc


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Sep 14, 2018)

stevewhitemd said:


> I'd expect the CPS ready room to have rows and rows of the "1Rx" (have to call it something) with plenty of fast, action-driven RF lenses -- a 70-200 f/2.8, a 400 f2/.8, etc. You don't want to adapt EF lenses to your 1Rx at the Olympics, do you?



Why the hell not? Again I'm convinced that as we sit here on a forum wringing our hands into knots about even just the prospect of adapting lenses, Canon themselves knows and understands that the functionality of an EF lens on an RF body won't be compromised because the lens, adapter, and camera were all made by the same company to work well with each other with no issues.

This adapter-phobia brought on by years of adapting one company's lenses onto another company's cameras using a third company's adapter just simply isn't going to be relevant when you're using all three parts made by the same company. So while some may sit around and be terrified of a little metal ring between their camera and their lens, I suspect the photographers at the Olympics have better things to worry about.


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## Act444 (Sep 14, 2018)

Interesting, no high-res R on that list. But there seems to be a lower-res one...hmm. Wonder if that’s a ~$1500 lower-end camera. That would be an interesting pricing strategy. 

Anyway, lots of DSLRs on the horizon. Long live the DSLR!


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## melgross (Sep 14, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Surprised they’re not doing a higher MP version early next year. Based on the forum comments, a lot of people would buy. They should also do a low MP, high ISO version for video folks equal to the A7SII or III (when it’s released).


This list, if accurate, is disappointing. If the 26MP model is a mirrorless version of the 1D, which I suppose it could be as the real pro level cameras from Canon/Nikon are low Rez by today’s standards, then ok. But I somehow don’t feel the viewfinder for that class of camera will be ready by then.

so this could be a lower priced model than the current one, just released. Then there will be no upgrade path for me to go to yet from my 5Dmk IV. But it could be a good way for,Canon to get aps-c users over.


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## CanoKnight (Sep 14, 2018)

naylor83 said:


> Ergo, a 26 megapixel full-frame mirrorless coming within one year? Could it be a higher speed action-oriented camera? Better video capabilities?



Get this straight. There will never be a Canon DSLR or mirrorless model with 'better video capabilities'. What was a suspicion earlier is now confirmed. If you are looking for serious video look to other brands.


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## Bjorn Holmsen (Sep 14, 2018)

WilliamJ said:


> I would love the 26mp full frame mirorless to be a higher speed, higher end model with better high iso and video specs, reduced crop factor, etc but I suspect this will be a lower end 6D ii equivelant.
> 
> Bear in mind the R is a mirorless 5D IV with better codec, flip screen, except for dual card slots and FPS/continuous af. Even thought it’s priced less than 5D IV, canon has stated a couple of times it’s a 5D level camera, so a lower end model is likely I think.


5D4 has built-in GPS and intervalometer too.


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## BeenThere (Sep 14, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> Get this straight. There will never be a Canon DSLR or mirrorless model with 'better video capabilities'. What was a suspicion earlier is now confirmed. If you are looking for serious video look to other brands.


... or get a dedicated video camera.


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## docsmith (Sep 14, 2018)

Edit- Not sure how I missed the DSLR reference on the "K" series APS-C bodies....some tweaks below to adjust.
---
That is a lot of cameras:

4 "K" series: 1 FF mirrorless, 2 APS-C DSLR smirrorless, and 1 FF DSLR
5 "EC" series: 2 APS-C, 2 Gx something, and 1 compact camera
Typically, hasn't the M been "EC?" Or are they "K" registrations as well? If they are "EC" that would open the door for the "EC APS-C" cameras to be the M5 II and M6 II. Then the "APS-C K" cameras would mean we have 2 "R" APS-C mirrorless cameras coming. Of course, the alternative is that we have two G series APS-C cameras coming and two with 1" sensors.

For now, I will assume it is the later (although R APS-C bodies would be interesting), and I would say we are looking at:

K433: 26 MP mirrorless FF camera. This is close to the current R and will need to be differentiated. High FPS and other pro characteristics should do that, so I am hopeful this is above the current "R". Alternative would be something truly entry level, but I think that should be down the road.
K435: 90D M5II. Fits the battery display. Hopefully canon is not recycling their sensor from the 80D, improvements are always good.
K436: A rebel, granted it is odd is also 24 MP, as the potential 90D. M6II
K437: 5DV (no other DSLR body makes sense, perhaps they want to differentiate from the R)
EC804 and EC808: G5x II and G7x III
EC811: M5 Mk II APS-C G3x II
EC812: M6 Mk II APS-C ???? different color G3x II???


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 14, 2018)

Is it possible that all the "pros" are not going to suddenly dump their 1DX2 level DSLR cameras and fall madly in love with the supposed mirrorless equivalent? I get the impression there are a lot of posts that are based on it being very important for "pros" to have the "hey look at me I have the latest technology", image. In other realms I often see the best _craftsmen_ not having the latest tools; good tools but not necessarily the most expensive or newest. 

The reason is simple. There is a significant amount of talent, skill and artistic ability that factors into the equation.

It made me think of the heated blade hockey skates that were endorsed by "The Great One". I Googled and 90% of the articles are 2007 or earlier.

Jack


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## padam (Sep 14, 2018)

What we're looking at is a mirrorless 6D Mark II, compared to the EOS R it will have a cheaper EVF and LCD screen and with Digic 8.
It's not expected to be any different in terms of the features. Maybe priced around 1600$? (I would like it to be cheaper still, but it won't be)
Good stills camera, soft 1080p, but for filming people with a shallow DOF it may still do a decent job - definitely not great at filming detail though.

I wonder what the press what the press will think of it after the amount of trashing the 6D Mark II had received.
It certainly looks more 'rounded' as a mirrorless camera for 'enthusiasts'.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 14, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> I There's NO WAY they'll be able to improve processing speed and power to the point that DPAF could support 20 FPS or more



Modern cellphones are more powerful than high end computers from years ago. Your “no way” flies in the face of progress.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Sep 14, 2018)

If so too bad no mention of a tilty flippy


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## RiceCanon (Sep 14, 2018)

The list is really disappointing to me. I have a 6D2 but am ready to move to 5D4 type specs (with advancements) in newer technology, ie mirrorless. Unfortunately it looks like my wait is going to be longer than I thought. No Canon purchases for me until they can deliver what I'm looking for. I'm sure I'm not alone. Come on Canon!


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Sep 14, 2018)

What are you guys so hung up on that cannot allow you to consider the EOS R a 5D level camera? Just because it doesn't have dual card slots? It doesn't have enough buttons? It's not big enough? It doesn't cost enough?

I mean, ok, I admit that it's not a technological _advancement_ over the 5D Mark IV, which is pretty unfortunate after a couple years, but it is just about on-par with it.


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## jebrady03 (Sep 14, 2018)

Here are my thoughts for a low-end camera, if that's what they decide that the 26mp mirrorless should be. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61639687


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## peterzuehlke (Sep 14, 2018)

stevewhitemd said:


> There is one hard-stop here: if Canon wants the R series to be taken seriously, they need a 1DX2 equivalent before the 2020 Tokyo Olympic Games. That is a showcase not just for the athletes but also for the photographers; Nikon, Canon and Sony all out-do themselves for the pro community. And it's on their home-turf. It would be embarrassing if Nikon had the Z7-mark2 and Sony had the A9iv out there while Canon didn't have an ultimate R ready to go.
> 
> But photographers would have to trust that the mirrorless camera would perform, particularly autofocus, at that level. DPreview guys mentioned the sluggish performance of the R camera, (they might hate Canon of course), but that has been my experience with Sony mirrorless AF: very accurate and the eye AF works great, but slow and in low light can get lost. (saw a review last week talking about the flagship Sony AF doing something like that, shooting sports, sometimes great, once in awhile totally off.) I shoot mirrorless alongside my 5d4, and it would take a lot to get me to trust one shooting sports.


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## CanoKnight (Sep 14, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> ... or get a dedicated video camera.



Well, actually no. I do not want a dedicated video camera. I don't want to lug around tons of equipment when I am on vacation and choose whichever suits my need for the moment. I want ONE camera, dslr or mirrorless, that does both quite well. Other brands have them - Sony's very capable A73 and soon Panasonic's new full frame which will set the benchmark for video quality (once again). So why don't I just shut up and get one of those ?? I *would* if I weren't held hostage by my EF lenses.


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## nchoh (Sep 14, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> They're already struggling with getting data off the sensor of the EOS R, as evidenced by the worst-in-class FPS, worst-in-class 4K, worst-in-class AF tracking with continuous AF, etc. Upping the megapixels will simply compound this issue. DPAF is absolutely fantastic and incredibly novel, but it's hamstringing the hell out of their cameras.



And how do you know that they are struggling to get info off the sensor (hardware issue)? Canon has put out that they will be fixing the a couple of the issues with a firmware release which strongly suggests that it's a software issue.

Which also means that if they equip the higher spec'ed models with dual processors, they would have enough HP to compete with Sony and Nikon.


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## amorse (Sep 14, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> What are you guys so hung up on that cannot allow you to consider the EOS R a 5D level camera? Just because it doesn't have dual card slots? It doesn't have enough buttons? It's not big enough? It doesn't cost enough?
> 
> I mean, ok, I admit that it's not a technological _advancement_ over the 5D Mark IV, which is pretty unfortunate after a couple years, but it is just about on-par with it.


I wouldn't say I'm hung up on it - it isn't my decision on whether or not Canon sees it as a comparable product, and frankly it has no bearing on me. I just have a very hard time envisioning Canon releasing a "top tier" do-it-all camera for under $3000. That seems very out of character for Canon. Typically, Canon's cameras have been released as being slightly more expensive than the most directly-comparable cameras from other companies and this would be a departure from that if Canon doesn't plan on offering a mirrorless camera in the >$3000 price range. Further, during the release of the R Canon really presented this as a camera you add to your kit, not replace your kit and go fully mirrorless. If this was a viable alternative to a 5D IV I would have thought Canon would present it as a great opportunity to make a full switch (I could certainly be wrong - it has happened before ).

None of that has any bearing on the quality of the camera, it just seems out of character for a company that tends to price their bodies as being premium in the market.


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## NorskHest (Sep 14, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> Is it possible that all the "pros" are not going to suddenly dump their 1DX2 level DSLR cameras and fall madly in love with the supposed mirrorless equivalent? I get the impression there are a lot of posts that are based on it being very important for "pros" to have the "hey look at me I have the latest technology", image. In other realms I often see the best _craftsmen_ not having the latest tools; good tools but not necessarily the most expensive or newest.
> 
> The reason is simple. There is a significant amount of talent, skill and artistic ability that factors into the equation.
> 
> ...


I shoot professional motocross for different publications from time to time and I see 6d's, 7dmkii's, 1dx's 1dxii's,d4's and d5's all the time with lots of version one glass on those bodies. I use my 1dc and my dx2 for this because they are durable and they work, there is not much of a reason to upgrade when the tools you have work and consistently work, I will not be buying anything till my bodies die and even then I'll fix them before that. The full bodied slr is a beautiful thing. So with that if I think I won't replace anything then many other people who shoot professionally will not be rushing out to get anything new either because why replace what is sound and proven, especially with first gen tech. And the 4kvideo on the 1d's is amazing


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## NorskHest (Sep 14, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Modern cellphones are more powerful than high end computers from years ago. Your “no way” flies in the face of progress.


This guy probably hasnt used a 1dxmkii with live view? It might be 16 fps and not 20 but it's close


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## stevewhitemd (Sep 14, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> I don't see it happening. As I mentioned in another reply, they're already struggling with getting info off the sensor in a reasonable amount of time. There's NO WAY they'll be able to improve processing speed and power to the point that DPAF could support 20 FPS or more and I don't think there's any way they wouldn't put their marquee AF technology (DPAF) into their marquee body.



So how does the 1Dx2 manage? You have a sensor, AF mechanism and shutter that does 20 FPS. One could (in theory) move that into the R series. Yes, I know, lots of engineering, but to say that it couldn't be done is wrong -- it can't be done with the 30 MB sensor they have in the R right now, but it could be done.



> Compounding that issue is a lack of native telephoto lenses. I see them beating the DSLR drum until the completion of the 2020 games, and maybe even 2022 or 2024. But don't worry, there are enough folks who bleed Canon red that it won't be a problem for them.



Here again, if they want the R series to be a serious, pro-level camera that is the wave of the future, the 2020 Olympics is the place to show that. Sure, you can do it later but you're missing the single-best opportunity. The World Cup, the Super Bowls, etc., don't match the Olympics in exposure, photographic challenges, etc. You could wait to 2024 but in the meantime Sony and Nikon are marching forward.

Native lenses: yes, a problem, and that's exactly why I'd be pushing like mad to get a good 70-200 f/2.8 and a 400 f/2.8 in RF mount done. That glass and the new RF glass just announced and the pro has enough to shoot in the Olympics (and other events); that spills over to the usual sports/fashion/wedding/industrial photography, etc. One of the reasons people say Canon has its lead is its lens catalog. Okay, Canon -- you introduced a new mount, now fill the catalog.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Sep 14, 2018)

stevewhitemd said:


> Native lenses: yes, a problem, and that's exactly why I'd be pushing like mad to get a good 70-200 f/2.8 and a 400 f/2.8 in RF mount done. That glass and the new RF glass just announced and the pro has enough to shoot in the Olympics (and other events); that spills over to the usual sports/fashion/wedding/industrial photography, etc. One of the reasons people say Canon has its lead is its lens catalog. Okay, Canon -- you introduced a new mount, now fill the catalog.


You did see that they released an EF to RF adapter, right? I fail to understand why there is such an urgent need for these lenses with an RF mount when they already exist in EF and will work on any RF camera that's released. What is to be gained by making an RF version, except for perhaps slightly better image stabilization, which nobody seems to be complaining about on the current 70-200 and 400 2.8?


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## stevewhitemd (Sep 14, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> You did see that they released an EF to RF adapter, right? I fail to understand why there is such an urgent need for these lenses with an RF mount when they already exist in EF and will work on any RF camera that's released. What is to be gained by making an RF version, except for perhaps slightly better image stabilization, which nobody seems to be complaining about on the current 70-200 and 400 2.8?



Of course; we've all seen that. New RF lens: lighter, smaller, ?? better optics. If Canon wants to signal that the R series is for demanding pros, they need the glass that serious pros will want to use. See the new 50 f/1.2 as an example. 

Pros are smart -- and cheap!  They don't buy new glass for the sake of new glass but because it fills a need. Sure, someone with a new EF 400 f/2.8 III isn't buying the RF anytime soon. But there are lots of working pros who would be in the market for new glass. Canon needs to have something for them.


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## Cryve (Sep 14, 2018)

Previous predictions had 80d and 7d ii successors firmly placed in 2019.
I would be extremy disappointed if we would only get them in 2020 as other commenters have speculated.
Is there an Chanze this list is not complete and lets room for a 90d or 7d iii in 2019?


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## ken (Sep 14, 2018)

There are a lot of good points here, but consider that (according to the US Department of Labor) there are roughly 49,000 professional photographers in the United States. (see https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes274021.htm ) That's a pretty small number. (Compare to 183K Electrical Engineers, for example) I can't think of any reason that other countries would have significantly higher percentages of their population working in the field of photography.

So clearly Canon isn't making the cameras just for those pros. They're way too small of a group. So why has Canon always cared about the pros so much? Because of their influence. But you know who has come along and stolen a ton of the pro photographer's influence on the camera buying public? YouTube and Instagram influencers. Not trying to disparage the YouTubers, but a lot of them don't fit the "pro photographer" mold. They really are more focussed on talking about gear, unboxing new gear, giving advice, and being talking heads in general. But their influence has become huge. Things have changed. I'm sure Canon is well aware of it. Ask yourself: which has more influence? The brief glimpse of photogs at an Olympic event shooting with white lenses (which doesn't necessarily even mean Canon any longer), or a vlogger with over a million subscribers telling everyone their detailed opinions on a new Canon release?

I'm not trying to imply Canon doesn't care about the pro photographer. They clearly have some hard-won respect with their unrivaled CPS and they don't want to give that up. But I think a lot of commenters here credit the pro photographers as having way more influence on Canon's planning than they probably have at this point in time.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Sep 14, 2018)

stevewhitemd said:


> Of course; we've all seen that. New RF lens: lighter, smaller, ?? better optics. If Canon wants to signal that the R series is for demanding pros, they need the glass that serious pros will want to use. See the new 50 f/1.2 as an example.
> 
> Pros are smart -- and cheap!  They don't buy new glass for the sake of new glass but because it fills a need. Sure, someone with a new EF 400 f/2.8 III isn't buying the RF anytime soon. But there are lots of working pros who would be in the market for new glass. Canon needs to have something for them.



Yes, but for the tele and super-tele lenses, is there truly any optical advantage to the new mount? It's exactly the same diameter as EF, just a shorter flange distance. Since the current EF tele and super-teles already have their rear elements deep inside the back of the lens, it would seem that these lenses have nothing to gain optically from a mount that just has a shorter flange distance.

You can see from the RF lenses they are coming out with that they are focusing on the lenses that actually benefit from the shorter flange distance. The 28-70 f2 probably was not reasonably possible in EF mount, and I believe the new 50mm f1.2 has an optical design that would not be possible without the short flange distance. It does not appear that the teles and super-teles have so much to gain being RF lenses.


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## transpo1 (Sep 14, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> Get this straight. There will never be a Canon DSLR or mirrorless model with 'better video capabilities'. What was a suspicion earlier is now confirmed. If you are looking for serious video look to other brands.



Unfortunately, this could be right. Canon would rather leave hybrid stills/video money on the table than cannibalize. Of course, the other guy could be right, too, that they just don't have the sensor tech for efficient FF 4K video, let alone 4K 60p, but I find that hard to believe. The 1DXII has it.


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## amorse (Sep 14, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> What is to be gained by making an RF version, except for perhaps slightly better image stabilization, which nobody seems to be complaining about on the current 70-200 and 400 2.8?


Weather sealing maybe - I can't find anything suggesting that the adapters are sealed. I would be afraid that adapting a weather sealed EF lens to the weather sealed EOS R would be compromised by limited sealing on the adapters. 

If anyone knows better or has a link to sealing information I'd love to read about it!


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## tron (Sep 14, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Yes, but for the tele and super-tele lenses, is there truly any optical advantage to the new mount? It's exactly the same diameter as EF, just a shorter flange distance. Since the current EF tele and super-teles already have their rear elements deep inside the back of the lens, it would seem that these lenses have nothing to gain optically from a mount that just has a shorter flange distance.
> 
> You can see from the RF lenses they are coming out with that they are focusing on the lenses that actually benefit from the shorter flange distance. The 28-70 f2 probably was not reasonably possible in EF mount, and I believe the new 50mm f1.2 has an optical design that would not be possible without the short flange distance. It does not appear that the teles and super-teles have so much to gain being RF lenses.


Plus the ultrawides do not have anything to gain (privatebydesign explained it before) and some wides do not need an improvent like 35mm 1.4L II and some portrait lenses as well like 85mm 1.4L IS plus some macro lenses like 100mm 2.8L IS and all the TS-E lenses, OK I stop writting my fingers got tired!


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## Cali Capture (Sep 14, 2018)

That adjustable ND Filter Adapter is just begging for a High MP Camera in the R line with a flippy screen, and some Canon Wide angle EOS glass! Which paradoxically wouldn't be possible with R glass. It will be interesting to see Canon releases L level wide angle lenses? I'd conjecture they stick to 35mm thru 135mm in the next few years and expect EOS glass to cover the ends of the range. Although a Fast 24mm would seam like a good choice given it's one of the older EOS primes.


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## nchoh (Sep 14, 2018)

tron said:


> Plus the ultrawides do not have anything to gain (privatebydesign explained it before) and some wides do not need an improvent like 35mm 1.4L II and some portrait lenses as well like 85mm 1.4L IS plus some macro lenses like 100mm 2.8L IS and all the TS-E lenses, OK I stop writting my fingers got tired!



Could you put the link to the explanation by privatebydesign please? I would like to read it.


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## fullstop (Sep 14, 2018)

what is this "9000 D" referred too?


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## zim (Sep 14, 2018)

amorse said:


> Weather sealing maybe - I can't find anything suggesting that the adapters are sealed. I would be afraid that adapting a weather sealed EF lens to the weather sealed EOS R would be compromised by limited sealing on the adapters.
> 
> If anyone knows better or has a link to sealing information I'd love to read about it!



The white paper they released shows rubber gaskets on the adapters so they do have weather sealing as good as L glass

https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/misc-pages/eos-r/pdf/canon_eos_r_white_paper.pdf

edit; the pdf seems to be unavailable from this link now anyone got a working link?


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## Sharlin (Sep 14, 2018)

NorskHest said:


> This guy probably hasnt used a 1dxmkii with live view? It might be 16 fps and not 20 but it's close



The 1DX2 does _not_ have Servo AF in Live View, however. (The 80D was the first one to have it.) Even the lowly M50 is capable of 10 fps bursts in one-shot AF, but _megafast_ continuous AF with DPAF hasn't yet been demonstrated. Currently the fastest DPAF Servo AF shooters are the M5, M6, and M50 at ~7 fps. However, a future dual-processor R camera should likely do better, at least assuming sensor readout speed isn't a bottleneck.


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## Sharlin (Sep 14, 2018)

fullstop said:


> what is this "9000 D" referred too?



The 77D.


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## fullstop (Sep 14, 2018)

ah ok, thx.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 14, 2018)

KenRockwell said:


> Canon EOS Rs = high MP mirrorless
> 
> Canon EOS Rt = lower res, high FPS mirrorless



It think this would really make a lot of Canon users happy, wouldn't it?


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## Sharlin (Sep 14, 2018)

docsmith said:


> That is a lot of cameras:
> 
> 4 "K" series: 1 FF mirrorless, 2 APS-C mirrorless, and 1 DSLR



No, the APS-C bodies are DSLRs. Most likely a new Rebel generation.

Now, the interesting question is whether the 32Mpix DSLR is FF or APS-C – that was not mentioned in the rumor. It _just might_ be the 90D although that's a huge pixel density for a crop sensor. Or it's the 5D5 and it's coming later than 2019.


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## justaCanonuser (Sep 14, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> The 7D2 was delayed about a year because (if I recall correctly) they took a late decision incorporate more of the 5D/1Dx technology - if that were true I would look on that as taking up some of the cycle time to 7D3.


I'd appreciate if Canon would implement a better phase AF system in the 7D3. The not very reliable phase AF system is one of few downsides of the 7D2, but a really annoying one compared with my 5D3. Plus, of course, a 7D3 would need a good 4K video, that can also be used by stills shooter for very high fps rates. This camera is about action in a small body. And Canon should stick with an SLR design. Shooting e.g. wildlife you can peer through the OVP and tele lens for hours without draining the battery.


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## tron (Sep 14, 2018)

nchoh said:


> Could you put the link to the explanation by privatebydesign please? I would like to read it.


https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...2l-usm-image-quality.35849/page-7#post-744399


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## Sibir Lupus (Sep 14, 2018)

Hmmm, it's hard to pick any of these out as being an M5 Mark II. Seeing as most M models have been on a 2 - 2 1/2 year life cycle, a new M5 should be right around the corner.


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## jeanluc (Sep 14, 2018)

I hope Canon issues some kind of a roadmap for the future fairly soon. It looks like a lot of folks here want to buy into the R system, but uncertainty about where the current and the next body sits is a problem....is it a 6d or s 5d “equivalent”? I think some clarity here and also about the next body would help people decide whether to pull the trigger or not. Nikon did that, and their shooters st least know what’s coming. 

It also sure looks like I’m not the only one who really wants a 5dsr2, mirrorless or dslr.


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## HarryFilm (Sep 14, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> Modern cellphones are more powerful than high end computers from years ago. Your “no way” flies in the face of progress.



Hmmm...The ARM 845 processor on my breadboards are doing 60 FPS at 4096 by 2160 pixels 32 bit RGBA...AND....I'm doing basic hue, saturation, luma, contrast, gamma and shadows, mid-tones, highlights, and RGB colour processing ON TOP of that LIVE in REALTIME! So yeah! Modern chips CAN EASILY do high end video processing but Canon is INCREDIBLE LAZY by putting in a 1.5 GHz Coretex based CPU into their cameras when they should be putting in a Qualcomm 845 CPU. Put in even a lower-end AMD GPU and I can 8K 8192x4320 pixels at 60 fps or even 120 fps!

Anyways, there's a few surprises coming down the road for ultra high stills and video resolution using extended onboard CPU/GPU processing power with announcements measured in mere weeks, so do hold your breath..............


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## The Supplanter (Sep 14, 2018)

jeanluc said:


> I hope Canon issues some kind of a roadmap for the future fairly soon. It looks like a lot of folks here want to buy into the R system, but uncertainty about where the current and the next body sits is a problem.... is it a 6d or a 5d “equivalent”? I think some clarity here and also about the next body would help people decide whether to pull the trigger or not. Nikon did that, and their shooters at least know what’s coming.
> 
> It also sure looks like I’m not the only one who really wants a 5dsr2, mirrorless or dslr.



Right on, sir. I just can't do it right now. I'm willing to pay more for extra features that are absent from the R, chiefly IBIS. But will the next release have IBIS???


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## syder (Sep 14, 2018)

CanoKnight said:


> Well, actually no. I do not want a dedicated video camera. I don't want to lug around tons of equipment when I am on vacation and choose whichever suits my need for the moment. I want ONE camera, dslr or mirrorless, that does both quite well. Other brands have them - Sony's very capable A73 and soon Panasonic's new full frame which will set the benchmark for video quality (once again). So why don't I just shut up and get one of those ?? I *would* if I weren't held hostage by my EF lenses.



How revealing. So you want a lightweight FF camera to record high quality 4K videos of your holidays... 

That certainly isnt why people buy cinema cameras. For most people I know its not why they buy FF cameras at all. Perhaps Canon is more intersted in catering to professionals than your specific holiday wish list? And no one is holding you hostage to anything. Grow up and buy a sony if thats what you actually want (hint... Those FF lenses still arent small).


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## Jack Douglas (Sep 14, 2018)

syder said:


> How revealing. So you want a lightweight FF camera to record high quality 4K videos of your holidays...
> 
> That certainly isnt why people buy cinema cameras. For most people I know its not why they buy FF cameras at all. Perhaps Canon is more intersted in catering to professionals than your specific holiday wish list? And no one is holding you hostage to anything. Grow up and buy a sony if thats what you actually want (hint... Those FF lenses still arent small).



So leaving Canon frees everyone from "hostage" situations with gear?? 

How about if a company disappears; is that a hostage situation or worse? What if they put out model after model and no longer support what is a little out of date or have terrible servicing of the camera/lens that is a few years old? I guess if you're a hostage, death could be preferable to captivity?? I can buy that. 

Jack


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## Ozarker (Sep 15, 2018)

stevewhitemd said:


> Of course; we've all seen that. New RF lens: lighter, smaller, ?? better optics. If Canon wants to signal that the R series is for demanding pros, they need the glass that serious pros will want to use. See the new 50 f/1.2 as an example.
> 
> Pros are smart -- and cheap!  They don't buy new glass for the sake of new glass but because it fills a need. Sure, someone with a new EF 400 f/2.8 III isn't buying the RF anytime soon. But there are lots of working pros who would be in the market for new glass. Canon needs to have something for them.



Hmmmm.... lighter, smaller. You didn't get the memo?


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## [email protected] (Sep 15, 2018)

razorzec said:


> It seems to me Canon is slowly relegating EF mount into entry level and low mid end range while the more expensive models go to RF mirrorless. it makes a sense since EOS R can use any EF lenses in addition to its superior RF line.
> 
> an RF-mount 26MP sounds like a lower tier EOS R to me with no Canon Log and 10 bit recording. I can't see them releasing a fast shooting Pro Grade model within a year yet.




I disagree. I think that the frames per second of the current model is so poor, that it would be rational for Canon to have released it so hindered only in the context of there being a faster body coming out very shortly.


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## Jethro (Sep 15, 2018)

I think there is also an assumption here that the list represents all the bodies that are in the immediate pipeline - why would that necessarily be the case?


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## bks54 (Sep 15, 2018)

Jethro said:


> I think there is also an assumption here that the list represents all the bodies that are in the immediate pipeline - why would that necessarily be the case?



I don’t know why we should expect this to be all that Canon has in the pipeline. After all, there was a different shorter list leaked on Nokishita only a month ago. Who is to say there won’t be another list in a few months time. Canon did a great job keeping most of the features of the EOS R secret.


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## Jethro (Sep 15, 2018)

bks54 said:


> I don’t know why we should expect this to be all that Canon has in the pipeline. After all, there was a different shorter list leaked on Nokishita only a month ago. Who is to say there won’t be another list in a few months time. *Canon did a great job keeping most of the features of the EOS R secret*.


Exactly - if they are planning a new year's release of a semi-pro MFF (timed for then to maximise Xmas sales of the EOS-R), then registering these specs (in a form they know will be immediately made public) doesn't make any sense to me. As a matter of interest, when did they register the specs for the EOS-R?


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## Jethro (Sep 15, 2018)

By the way, the head article to this is a little (I'm sure unintentionally) misleading. When I look at Canonwatch, this list is actually the *updated* list of all the upcoming bodies. The only all-new bodies are K435, EC808 and EC812. Most of the others (including the k433 MFF) seem to have some updated features mainly '_Maximum image size of test machine_' which I take to mean sensor size.


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## gmrza (Sep 15, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> I disagree. I think that the frames per second of the current model is so poor, that it would be rational for Canon to have released it so hindered only in the context of there being a faster body coming out very shortly.



I would also take this view. The EF mount still has a lot of life in it. For big white lenses especially there is not as much benefit in a more compact body. The choice of mirrorless vs DSLR for a sports photographer will come down to AF and frame rate. Body size does not play a role, in fact the body needs to be large enough to be ergonomic and to handle well with a big lens on it.
Until we get to a point where RF lenses can be seen to radically outclass EF lenses (keep in mind RF has a much more advanced electronic interface) I believe Canon will continue to make the big white lenses with an EF mount and let users mount them on mirrorless bodies with an adaptor.

What would however interest me to know is whether the mirrorless APS-C bodies that Canon has in the pipeline will be EF-M or RF mount bodies. Is EF-M dead?


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## transpo1 (Sep 15, 2018)

jeanluc said:


> I hope Canon issues some kind of a roadmap for the future fairly soon. It looks like a lot of folks here want to buy into the R system, but uncertainty about where the current and the next body sits is a problem....is it a 6d or s 5d “equivalent”? I think some clarity here and also about the next body would help people decide whether to pull the trigger or not. Nikon did that, and their shooters st least know what’s coming.
> 
> It also sure looks like I’m not the only one who really wants a 5dsr2, mirrorless or dslr.



True- this is where their ability for ultimate secrecy can hurt them. They just need a development announcement on a high MP EOS-R and perhaps a low MP high ISO video oriented version (which I am convinced they will never do) to instill confidence in the investment by first gen buyers. I bought the original EOS-M and I wasn’t thrilled with how that system developed.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 15, 2018)

> *K437*
> 
> Single lens reflex camera
> Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed
> ...


This one potentially looks like 5D Mk V. 32.2Mpix. If it has an articulating screen, GPS and dual card slot it's a must have one.

But there's nothing interesting (to me) in the mirrorless department. It'd expect something like 5DMkIV mirrorless but with 36+Mpix.

I still don't buy the idea the EOS R is a 5DMkIV-grade camera. It's clearly not, at least to my needs.


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## MVPhoto (Sep 15, 2018)

For everyone debating where the EOS R is placed, I'm almost positive it is closer to the 6D line than the 5D line despite having almost the exact same sensor in it! Here's why. Technology advances. The 5Dmk4 has been out for 2 years now and technology always trickles down the line. I remember when the 5Dmk3 came out and everyone was hyping up the fact it had the same autofocus unit as the 1D series cameras! Coming from the 5Dmk2 only having 9 AF points, it was a big deal! So a camera having the same sensor as a higher up model which has been on the market for nearly 2 years isn't that surprising to me. Not to mention the EOS R is much more closely priced to a 6D or to the Nikon Z6 or Sony A7 competitors rather than the 5D or the Nikon Z7 or A7r or A7s.

Sensor aside, body wise it very much seems more like a 6D series camera. The 5D mk3 and mk4 utilize dual card slots and SD card has never been the choice for the higher end cameras! At least not since I've been shooting. The 6D series on the other hand only has a single SD card slot like the EOS R. It's difficult to compare hardware layout too much as it's a radically different design being a mirrorless camera body than any of their DSLR cameras.

Sept 5 debut! During the debut they literally said the real star of the show was not the camera, but the new lens mount! While I wasn't personally too thrilled to see a new mount because of the headache of swapping over, I can understand the advantages of having this new mount. I did find it strange though that they hyped up the lens mount along with the new lenses and practically downplayed the camera body itself.

Reps! During one of the first interviews a Canon rep ( or at least someone wearing a Canon logo shirt ) literally said the EOS R was not a flagship camera, it was not a pro camera, it was not a beginner camera... but more of a general purpose all around camera body. This leads me to believe there will be a 5D and maybe even a 1D mirrorless equivalent!

Rudy Winston! Literally just a couple days ago B&H interviewed two Canon photographers as well as two of the tech advisors for Canon. One of which was Rudy Winston which I'm sure everyone has seen if you keep up with Canon's own video posts. This is how Rudy closed out the interview!
"Remember that this is simply the beginning. We're not ending here. This is the first camera body in the system. There will be more down the road at some point. And these are not the only lenses that we're going to introduce in the system. There will be more down the road. I don't have a, as I joked a moment ago, a crystal ball but I can certainly say that by everything that we've been told by our engineers the best is yet to come!"
While this may seem a bit vague, it leads me to believe that the EOS R is again just their first camera and there will be a much more advanced one to come out soon! This is a great time to be a photographer!


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## sanj (Sep 15, 2018)

Bye bye DSLR. Now. Not after 10 years.


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## Aglet (Sep 15, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> They're already struggling with getting data off the sensor of the EOS R, as evidenced by the worst-in-class FPS, worst-in-class 4K, worst-in-class AF tracking with continuous AF, etc. Upping the megapixels will simply compound this issue. DPAF is absolutely fantastic and incredibly novel, but it's hamstringing the hell out of their cameras.



I wonder how Fuji's XT3 is doing AFC with over 2 million AF pixels on their sensor...


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## dtaylor (Sep 15, 2018)

stevewhitemd said:


> There is one hard-stop here: if Canon wants the R series to be taken seriously, they need a 1DX2 equivalent before the 2020 Tokyo Olympic Games.



Nah. The market is just not moving that fast. I'm not saying Canon won't introduce a high end sports R by then. But it won't hurt them or Nikon if their sports bodies are still 'flappy mirrors.'


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## dtaylor (Sep 15, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> They're already struggling with getting data off the sensor of the EOS R, as evidenced by the worst-in-class FPS, worst-in-class 4K, worst-in-class AF tracking with continuous AF, etc.



The reviews I've seen indicate that it tracks well at 5 fps. I realize that doesn't necessarily torpedo your argument because 5 fps isn't that quick. But it AF tracks better than the Nikon Z's.


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## fullstop (Sep 15, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> The reviews I've seen indicate that it tracks well at 5 fps. I realize that doesn't necessarily torpedo your argument because 5 fps isn't that quick. But it AF tracks better than the Nikon Z's.



EOS R only tracks at 5 fps in "just keep firing" (shutter priority) mode. in "get it sharp before shutter is released" (focus priority) mode it drops to only 3 fps. 

that is disappointingly slow by 2018 standards - even for a "non-sports / fast action" camera.


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## MayaTlab (Sep 15, 2018)

fullstop said:


> EOS R only tracks at 5 fps in "just keep firing" (shutter priority) mode. in "get it sharp before shutter is released" (focus priority) mode it drops to only 3 fps.



From the looks of it the R has a much bigger problem : if Jared Polin's video is any indication, it seems that the R can't produce a liveview feed in continuous bursts (just like the Ms). The only thing you see through the EVF is a 3 or 5fps slideshow of the shot previously taken. So you're always 150 or so milliseconds behind what's really happening (vs 25 or so for other current mirrorless cameras).


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## fullstop (Sep 15, 2018)

Aglet said:


> I wonder how Fuji's XT3 is doing AFC with over 2 million AF pixels on their sensor...



easy to answer: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-t3-first-impressions-review/2

because Fuji XT-3 is a "late 2018 state of the art" camera with
1. a new, top-notch, fast-readout speed sensor (APS-C 26.1 MP BSI) instead of a 2-year old sensor with different micro-lenses (Canon EOS R with 5D4 sensor)
2. well-designed on-sensor PD-AF (with 425 selectable AF fields) for better real-life AF performance compared to Canon's overhyped dual pixel fancy which has never fully delivered its theoretical superiority in any real-life Canon product so far (at least not for stills shooting)
3. adequately powerful 2018 ASIC with enough processing power to really drive things instead of a single, re-used 2016 mirrorflapper DIGIC processor
4. and - in fairness - APS-C sensor vs. FF makes things easier here for Fuji.

Summary: Fuji has gone "all-in" with XT-3. Canon has designed a "really right" R mount but is only able or willing to bring a "very pedestrian start model" with EOS R. Very similar to their approach with original EOS M. Better R bodies will for sure follow. But no need to run out today and pre-order a mirrorfree 6D III for 2.5k.


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## BillB (Sep 15, 2018)

nchoh said:


> It looks like the SW guys at Canon will be having their hands full for the next 2 years at least bumping up the performance of their mirrorless offerings. I would bet not.





Quarkcharmed said:


> This one potentially looks like 5D Mk V. 32.2Mpix. If it has an articulating screen, GPS and dual card slot it's a must have one.
> 
> But there's nothing interesting (to me) in the mirrorless department. It'd expect something like 5DMkIV mirrorless but with 36+Mpix.
> 
> I still don't buy the idea the EOS R is a 5DMkIV-grade camera. It's clearly not, at least to my needs.


dual processors might be nice too


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## tron (Sep 15, 2018)

BillB said:


> dual processors might be nice too


Or at least the "+" edition of the Digic just like in the 5DMkIV or 5DMkIII


----------



## mh1956 (Sep 15, 2018)

For the Powershot-range I would really like to see a successor to the G5X, one that is long overdue. The current version of the G5X is from 2015 (!). A (slightly) longer lens, 4K video and DIGIC 8 processor in a MKII-version would be very welcome. A MKIII-version of the Powershot G7X with 4K video would be nice too.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 15, 2018)

*K433 = EOS R "entry level"; *
*same old 5D IV sensor as EOS R, even lower specs, *
*hopefully smaller body and low price*
Mirrorless camera, Full size, Maximum image size of test machine: 6240 x 4160, Probably will be released within 1 year


*K435 = EOS 90D or 78D*
Single lens reflex camera, APS-C, Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed, Battery level indication is displayed in 4 levels (same as 9000 D etc.), Maximum image size of test machine: 6000 × 4000, Probably released in 2019


*K436 = EOS / Rebel 900D*
Single lens reflex camera, APS-C, Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed, Battery level indication is displayed in 4 levels (same as 9000 D etc.),Maximum image size of test machine: 6000 × 4000,Probably released in 2019


*K437 = 5D V*
Single lens reflex camera, Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed, Battery level indicator is displayed in six levels (same as 5D Mark IV etc.), Maximum image size of test machine: 6960 × 4640, Probably released in 2019 or later


*EC 811 = EOS M5 II*
Mirrorless camera, APS-C, Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed, Maximum image size of test machine: 6000 × 4000, Probably released in 2019


*EC 812 = EOS M6 II*
Mirrorless camera, APS-C, Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed, Maximum image size of test machine: 6000 × 4000, Probably released in 2019 or later


----------



## Josh Leavitt (Sep 15, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> This one potentially looks like 5D Mk V. 32.2Mpix. If it has an articulating screen, GPS and dual card slot it's a must have one.



I was thinking along similar lines. Although a 2-3 year window between the mark 4 and mark 5 is pretty quick by Canon standards. Maybe Sony's refresh cycle is forcing Canon to react. The articulating touchscreen would be a welcome addition. C-RAW and CR3 are near certainties, and probably the Eye AF in liveview mode as well. I'm hoping Canon ditches the CFast slot and just goes to dual UHS-II; the staggered media types left the 5D IV somewhat gimped in my opinion.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 15, 2018)

Josh Leavitt said:


> I was thinking along similar lines. Although a 2-3 year window between the mark 4 and mark 5 is pretty quick by Canon standards. Maybe Sony's refresh cycle is forcing Canon to react. The articulating touchscreen would be a welcome addition. C-RAW and CR3 are near certainties, and probably the Eye AF in liveview mode as well. I'm hoping Canon ditches the CFast slot and just goes to dual UHS-II; the staggered media types left the 5D IV somewhat gimped in my opinion.



Sony refresh times also seem to be lengthening which suggests they are reaching 'diminsihing returns' on what is already an excellent set of cameras.
The 5DIV does not have CFast, did you mean CF. Even so I am not sure why it 'gimps' the 5DIV? I know that CF had advantages over SD cards but not sure if the differences are still there but now increasingly negligible.


----------



## fullstop (Sep 15, 2018)

Josh Leavitt said:


> I'm hoping Canon ditches the CFast slot and just goes to dual UHS-II



seconded! Actually by 2019 I would want Canon to install dual *UHS-III* slots. For me ideally MicroSD form factor to keep things as compact as possible.


----------



## tron (Sep 15, 2018)

For me CF (I use 160/150MB/sec cards anyway) and UHS-II or UHS-III would combine the best of both worlds. One or two more fps would be welcome too.


----------



## Josh Leavitt (Sep 15, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Even so I am not sure why it 'gimps' the 5DIV? I know that CF had advantages over SD cards but not sure if the differences are still there but now increasingly negligible.



I wasn't referring to the CF card media gimping the 5D IV, but rather the combination of a dual-media type with one having a faster transfer speed than the other. I'd rather see cameras come configured with identical throughput to identical media types. For example, I also found the Olympus OM-D E-M1 II being a bit of a disappointment with only one of its SD slots being UHS-II (and the A7 III & A7R III). Panasonic set a good example with the G9, though. 

It may be more problematic for Canon to go that route since they've used CF for so long. A lot of users will have amassed a sizable collection, and thus Canon will likely continue to support CF in the 5D-series. Although I expect the next 1D-series camera (whether EF or RF) to use the new CF Express media type when it hits the market. We might see one of those before the 2020 games for the RF mount.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 15, 2018)

MVPhoto said:


> For everyone debating where the EOS R is placed, I'm almost positive it is closer to the 6D line than the 5D line despite having almost the exact same sensor in it!



Exactly. A lot of the features and firmware are Powershot features, many DSLR features seem to be reserved for a higher model, or there is not adequate processor power to run them without slowing down performance even more.

As far as a high MP model, I think that there are still issues to work out. A high MP sensor probably requires a more powerful Digic 8+ and a bigger battery, or two digic processors to handle the heavy data requirements along with a bigger battery.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 15, 2018)

BillB said:


> dual processors might be nice too



Yeah maybe. However that I don't care much about, I'm more concerned about available functionality. If they achieve the result with DIGIC1, it's fine. I wouldn't mind even an AMD with Linux inside, I'm not really concerned what's inside my camera. Unless they use Windows 95 internally...


----------



## BillB (Sep 15, 2018)

tron said:


> Or at least the "+" edition of the Digic just like in the 5DMkIV or 5DMkIII


With only the single processor, the R seems to me to be at the 5D lite level at best, even if it is a notch above the 6D level. It seems to me that anything pricier than the R will most likely have a new sensor and much more processing power. (And it may even have 2 card slots!).


----------



## BillB (Sep 15, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yeah maybe. However that I don't care much about, I'm more concerned about available functionality. If they achieve the result with DIGIC1, it's fine. I wouldn't mind even an AMD with Linux inside, I'm not really concerned what's inside my camera. Unless they use Windows 95 internally...


Fair enough. The proof is in the pudding, but the functionality will depend at least in part on processing power.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Sep 15, 2018)

Josh Leavitt said:


> I was thinking along similar lines. Although a 2-3 year window between the mark 4 and mark 5 is pretty quick by Canon standards. Maybe Sony's refresh cycle is forcing Canon to react. The articulating touchscreen would be a welcome addition. C-RAW and CR3 are near certainties, and probably the Eye AF in liveview mode as well. I'm hoping Canon ditches the CFast slot and just goes to dual UHS-II; the staggered media types left the 5D IV somewhat gimped in my opinion.



Yep. I had a card failure in my 5DMkIV. Thankfully I use both slots. I mostly do landscapes, sometimes having to put significant effort and time to get to a location. I'd be hugely disappointed if I'd lost my images, even though my photography isn't hugely profitable. I've done some events/concerts also. There I can't afford a single card slot either because of ~200-300 people waiting for photos.
Articulating screen would be great to have, too. Higher resolution and higher DR are even more important. GPS is a nice icing on the 5DIV cake.

So from EOS R I only get an articulating screen and lose dual card and GPS. That sounds like a downgrade from 5DIV. After reading and viewing EOS R reviews and specs, I've realised that the presence of the pentaprism in my camera isn't a huge factor at all, it's somewhere in the middle of my list along with weight and compactness. As long as the crucial aspects are addressed and improved, I'm ready to buy a new camera.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 15, 2018)

BillB said:


> Fair enough. The proof is in the pudding, but the functionality will depend at least in part on processing power.


Yeah I don't care much about video, but EOS R can do full-sized [email protected] That can only be done with reading the whole image and downsampling. So the system is able to read the whole sensor @60Hz (not to mention [email protected]). Therefore the issue is either in CPU+memory+bus performance when compressing 4K or in stupid marketing decisions. The former can be resolved with more powerful/efficient h/w, the latter is beyond engineering and common sense...


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## BillB (Sep 15, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> They're already struggling with getting data off the sensor of the EOS R, as evidenced by the worst-in-class FPS, worst-in-class 4K, worst-in-class AF tracking with continuous AF, etc. Upping the megapixels will simply compound this issue. DPAF is absolutely fantastic and incredibly novel, but it's hamstringing the hell out of their cameras.


Canon has a way of coming up with performance levels that appall the internet buzzards. This seems to be particularly true of fps and 4k. It also seems clear that Canon wasn't trying to push the performance envelope much with the R, if you don't count the RF mount or a couple of new RF lenses. So, the questions become what the performance levels will be for the next R that is rolled out at a higher price point, and when we will see it.


----------



## BillB (Sep 15, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yeah I don't care much about video, but EOS R can do full-sized [email protected] That can only be done with reading the whole image and downsampling. So the system is able to read the whole sensor @60Hz (not to mention [email protected]). Therefore the issue is either in CPU+memory+bus performance when compressing 4K or in stupid marketing decisions. The former can be resolved with more powerful/efficient h/w, the latter is beyond engineering and common sense...


Actually, the issue could be a combination of available throughput, design tradeoffs, and perception of consumer preference. With the 5DIV, for example, the goal of producing a quieter camera may have worked against higher fps. Also, Canon may have its own notions about who really cares about fps and fullframe 4K and who does not.


----------



## canonmike (Sep 15, 2018)

GaryUK said:


> K433: 6240 x 4160. Same res as a 6Dii. So maybe nothing new.
> 
> K437: 6960 × 4640 Not the same as a 5D4 (6750 x 4500)
> 
> So maybe a new sensor will arrive, perhaps K437 = 5D5.


Ah, a little food for thought. Good conjecture on your part. Hope it proves right.


----------



## canonmike (Sep 15, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> They're already struggling with getting data off the sensor of the EOS R, as evidenced by the worst-in-class FPS, worst-in-class 4K, worst-in-class AF tracking with continuous AF, etc. Upping the megapixels will simply compound this issue. DPAF is absolutely fantastic and incredibly novel, but it's hamstringing the hell out of their cameras.


You are not the first to suggest that while everyone loves DPAF, perhaps it is somehow crippling or handicapping the other feature sets you enumerated above, features which we are demanding in any new camera. We are now all hoping the next gen R ups the anty.


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## canonmike (Sep 15, 2018)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> You did see that they released an EF to RF adapter, right? I fail to understand why there is such an urgent need for these lenses with an RF mount when they already exist in EF and will work on any RF camera that's released. What is to be gained by making an RF version, except for perhaps slightly better image stabilization, which nobody seems to be complaining about on the current 70-200 and 400 2.8?


Supposedly faster and quieter focus on RF mount


----------



## canonmike (Sep 15, 2018)

transpo1 said:


> Unfortunately, this could be right. Canon would rather leave hybrid stills/video money on the table than cannibalize. Of course, the other guy could be right, too, that they just don't have the sensor tech for efficient FF 4K video, let alone 4K 60p, but I find that hard to believe. The 1DXII has it.


Recent commentary here on Rumors and other social media platforms has brought up this same question, "Is this as good as Canon sensor tech gets??" While not all of us are abandoning ship, at least not yet, some of us do have concerns about this and don't want to be wandering on a Canon sail less ship, able to float but going from nowhere to nowhere else. Please, Canon, refine your engineering prowess and give us what we want and soon.


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## Cryve (Sep 15, 2018)

The K 435 or the K 436 very well may be the 90d and 7diii. The release in 2019 would fit previous speculations, although i expected canon to up the mp to 26mp like fuji did.

Historicaly the 7d ii and the 70d shared the same sensor, so it would make sense that the 90d and the 7diii share the same sensor again, and i think everybody would be happy if they give us a 24mp bsi sensor without an aa filter.

Are there any other lower than 80d tier cameras that need updating and thus could be those 24mp models? If not those to certifications are highly likely the 90d and 7d iii.


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## MVPhoto (Sep 15, 2018)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Yeah I don't care much about video, but EOS R can do full-sized [email protected] That can only be done with reading the whole image and downsampling. So the system is able to read the whole sensor @60Hz



I'm pretty sure Canon isn't oversampling from the full sensor though but most likely through pixel binning or line skipping. I haven't kept up to date on how it captures full frame in 1080p. Does anyone know for sure?


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## applecider (Sep 16, 2018)

So three sensor sizes

24 MP

26 MP or25.96 for the pixel accountants

32.3MP. Or 32.3

Both Dslrs and mirrorless..

Given past disclosures like this there is a 6-9 month lag, between regulatory checking and release clearly too much time to respond to Nikon releases.


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## applecider (Sep 16, 2018)

Oh and go check out nikonrumors, the fact that canons mirrorless is supposed to ship before nikons is killing people hehe.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 16, 2018)

MVPhoto said:


> I'm pretty sure Canon isn't oversampling from the full sensor though but most likely through pixel binning or line skipping. I haven't kept up to date on how it captures full frame in 1080p. Does anyone know for sure?



I don't know for sure, but skipping isn't that simple. Say you can't simply skip all even or odd columns and rows as you will immediately lose all blue or all red pixels, or both blue and red. Although you can skip like this: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... But you will likely get aliasing as skipping will reduce or eliminate the effect from the AA filter and will reduce the amount of information you get for colour interpolation.


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## GaryUK (Sep 16, 2018)

applecider said:


> Oh and go check out nikonrumors, the fact that canons mirrorless is supposed to ship before nikons is killing people hehe.



Yep seems Z7 ships 28th Sept, the R on the 9th Oct and the Z6 some time in Nov.


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## Romz26 (Sep 16, 2018)

applecider said:


> Oh and go check out nikonrumors, the fact that canons mirrorless is supposed to ship before nikons is killing people hehe.


also probably the fact that we get a battery grip, 100% working adaptors some with added functionality, and no blackout while shooting


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## fullstop (Sep 16, 2018)

Romz26 said:


> no blackout while shooting



is it confirmed that Nikon Z6 and Z7 will have EVF blackout? 
not sure about it atm.


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## MayaTlab (Sep 16, 2018)

Romz26 said:


> also probably the fact that we get no blackout while shooting



Given Jared Polin's video, and what Canon's been developing with the M50, oh boy you're going to get disappointed.

With mirrorless cameras, it's crucial to understand that no blackout =/= actually seeing what's happening in real time. Remember : you're looking at a screen. And if there's anything Hollywood should teach you about screens, is that it's not reality !

What older mirrorless cameras and current Canon Ms do, during bursts, is to show a slideshow of the previous shots taken during the burst. With these, you actually get the mother of all blackouts as there simply is no liveview feed whatsoever during the entire burst. Because the camera has to read the entire sensor to produce an image out of it, what you see in the viewfinder during the burst is always around more or less 150 millisecond or so behind what is happening.

Current mirrorless cameras, on the other hand, may have a blackout, but they also have a degree of liveview in continuous mode in between frames, that's only lagging by the same amount that the EVF regularly lags, so maybe around 25-35ms. With some mirrorless cameras (the A series for example), this moderate lag is easily compensated by their sorter shutter lag in electronic first curtain mode (25ms for Sony's A series, 50ms for a typical Canon DSLR).

Canon went further with the M50 : in single shot mode, it freezes the EVF for a fraction of a second when taking a shot, instead of going black. As a result, you get the illusion that there is no blackout at any time. It's a neat trick that Canon pulled because apparently it's fooling every one .

Now, maybe there is a setting somewhere on the R that would, for the first time in a Canon mirrorless camera, enable liveview feed in burst mode. But I highly, highly doubt it given Canon sensors' readout speed. The only mirrorless cameras that can truly shoot with no blackout whatsoever right now are the A9 and cameras equipped with Sony's stacked 1" sensor.



fullstop said:


> is it confirmed that Nikon Z6 and Z7 will have EVF blackout?
> not sure about it atm.



They have a "blackout", just like any mirrorless camera (including the R, even if Canon tricks people into thinking that there isn't one) other than the A9 and some cameras with smaller sensors, but they also have liveview during bursts (at 5.5fps I believe), which the R most likely doesn't have.


----------



## vjlex (Sep 16, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> *K437*
> 
> Single lens reflex camera
> Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed
> ...



Battery level indicator on my 5D Mark IV is only four bars. Is it something that was changed in the latest firmware? I'm still on 1.0.4.


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## vjlex (Sep 16, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> Given Jared Polin's video, and what Canon's been developing with the M50, oh boy you're going to get disappointed.
> 
> With mirrorless cameras, it's crucial to understand that no blackout =/= actually seeing what's happening in real time. Remember : you're looking at a screen. And if there's anything Hollywood should teach you about screens, is that it's not reality !
> 
> ...


Yeah, that buffer clearance issue with continuous shooting is what irritates me the most about my M3 and am determined that my next mirrorless will not have that problem. Maybe not quite the same thing as "screen blackout" that others are referring to, but far worse in my opinion. You can see it in this PhotoRec TV video (starting at time marker 1:15). Very glad to have this question answered for me. It's a major concern for me.


----------



## peters (Sep 16, 2018)

stevewhitemd said:


> There is one hard-stop here: if Canon wants the R series to be taken seriously, they need a 1DX2 equivalent before the 2020 Tokyo Olympic Games. That is a showcase not just for the athletes but also for the photographers; Nikon, Canon and Sony all out-do themselves for the pro community. And it's on their home-turf. It would be embarrassing if Nikon had the Z7-mark2 and Sony had the A9iv out there while Canon didn't have an ultimate R ready to go.
> 
> I'd expect the CPS ready room to have rows and rows of the "1Rx" (have to call it something) with plenty of fast, action-driven RF lenses -- a 70-200 f/2.8, a 400 f2/.8, etc. You don't want to adapt EF lenses to your 1Rx at the Olympics, do you?
> 
> So Canon can have their 5D4-minus R, and their 6D2 equivalent R, etc., and build out the line in 2019. But for the Olympics they'd better be ready with the camera the pros want to use.



I Personaly dont think they will build a sportive ros r camera. Sportphotographrr and reporters want big and solid bodies with long battery lasting and native telephoto lenses. I dont think an R would fit that great in there - or at least canon things so. 
But I may be wrong.


----------



## scyrene (Sep 16, 2018)

shunsai said:


> Battery level indicator on my 5D Mark IV is only four bars. Is it something that was changed in the latest firmware? I'm still on 1.0.4.



Four bars but six levels of indication, see this from the manual


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 16, 2018)

*K437 *is possibly the 7D Mark III.

The 5D IV is too new to replace (yes, I know the original 5d Mark I and the Mark II were replaced in about this timeline, but the 5D IV doesn't really need a refresh yet and I wouldn't see it being replaced until 2020.

A 32 megapixel 7D Mark III would excite some and upset others.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 16, 2018)

Hope this is not the complete list. I am still hoping for a 5DsR2 soon. Hopefully in a MILC format but at this point the hope has started to fade. The K437 does not say it is FF or APS-C. If it is a FF it most likely the replacement of 5D4. After sitting on the fence about pre-ordering EOS R, I choose not to. I will wait to see what MILC Canon will introduce next.


----------



## KT (Sep 16, 2018)

Sharp said:


> *K437* : too early for a 5D markV, but maybe a 5Ds mark4?


The 5Ds is only a first generation (Canon never had a 50 MP sensor before), the follow up will be 5Ds Mark II not IV unless hey merge the 5D mark IV with the 5Ds R into a single line, possible but not sure about it.


----------



## melgross (Sep 16, 2018)

KT said:


> The 5Ds is only a first generation (Canon never had a 50 MP sensor before), the follow up will be 5Ds Mark II not IV unless hey merge the 5D mark IV with the 5Ds Rinto a single line, possible but not sure about it.


Eh, we don’t know. A logical increase would be to the 51MP of the S models from 30. Nikon and Sony go from 24 to 45, so it would make sense.

The 51 sensor was better than the 5Dmk III sensor in pixel level noise and dynamic range. But it was an old style design without the amplifier on the chip. I would imagine that if Canon took that sensor and used newer technology as well as including the amp on chip as they do now, it would gain 1.5 to 2 stops over what it is. That would be sufficient. I’d like to see that. I might buy that camera. I almost bought the S, but the noise/dynamics wasn’t good enough.

I waited for, and bought the 5Dmk IV instead.


----------



## Cochese (Sep 16, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> Is it possible that all the "pros" are not going to suddenly dump their 1DX2 level DSLR cameras and fall madly in love with the supposed mirrorless equivalent? I get the impression there are a lot of posts that are based on it being very important for "pros" to have the "hey look at me I have the latest technology", image. In other realms I often see the best _craftsmen_ not having the latest tools; good tools but not necessarily the most expensive or newest.
> 
> The reason is simple. There is a significant amount of talent, skill and artistic ability that factors into the equation.
> 
> ...



A lot of the professional photographers I knew are still used 5DMIIs, D800s, D4, and pre 1DX model bodies. You know, cameras that still get the job done. The one's using newer bodies are usually doing so because the old ones finally died, mostly. Some because newer specs actually mattered to their job.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 16, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> Remember : you're looking at a screen. And if there's anything Hollywood should teach you about screens, is that it's not reality !



CR for the humour! 

Jack


----------



## 6degrees (Sep 16, 2018)

I am not sure if Canon RF Mount allows Canon to develop Canon RF 100-200 F2.

I do not count on Canon RF for high end wide angle lenses. I will prefer Zeiss high end manual wide angle lenses instead.

This is my dream team:

- Zeiss Milvus 1.4/25 + Canon EF-RF/ND-Filter Adapter
- Canon RF 50mm F1.2
- Canon RF 100-200mm F2 (if available in the future)

We will see.

I will use Canon R for now, and keep it as a souvenir collection for Canon mirrorless first edition.


----------



## dak723 (Sep 16, 2018)

Cochese said:


> A lot of the professional photographers I knew are still used 5DMIIs, D800s, D4, and pre 1DX model bodies. You know, cameras that still get the job done. The one's using newer bodies are usually doing so because the old ones finally died, mostly. Some because newer specs actually mattered to their job.



Which is why all this talk of mirrorless replacing DSLRs within 2 or 3 years is a lot of nonsense, in my opinion. The discussion might begin after one more generation of DSLRs - probably 2 generations. So let's all relax for 6 or 7 years, OK?


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 17, 2018)

razorzec said:


> It seems to me Canon is slowly relegating EF mount into entry level and low mid end range while the more expensive models go to RF mirrorless. it makes a sense since EOS R can use any EF lenses in addition to its superior RF line.
> 
> an RF-mount 26MP sounds like a lower tier EOS R to me with no Canon Log and 10 bit recording. I can't see them releasing a fast shooting Pro Grade model within a year yet.



Either that or it is a 26 MP high end replacement for the 20 MP EOS 1D X Mark II.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 17, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> Either that or it is a 26 MP high end replacement for the 20 MP EOS 1D X Mark II.



Somehow I rather doubt this, at least in a literal sense. Are there many saying that the Sony A9, in spite of all the praise that can be directed toward it, is a replacement for the 1DX2 in all respects? Then, assuming some of Canon's mirrorless capabilities don't even match Sony, how can they produce a replacement for the 1DX2 that is mirrorless? I'm not saying it couldn't be a higher level but replacement, that's asking a lot.

Jack


----------



## sleepnever (Sep 17, 2018)

Man. I've been holding out on the rumor that we'd see a 5DsR II (whatever you want to officially name it) in early 2019. None of those specs are at 50MP+ resolutions, let alone 45 something. I was hoping they would have announced something at the camera shows this year. Nada. I guess worst case scenario, for landscape work, I can grab a (cringe) Sony A7R3 and adapt my much loved Canon glass and keep my 5D3 as an all around. sigh. I really don't want to switch systems, but I do want to upgrade and have access to that newer tech.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 17, 2018)

stevewhitemd said:


> Of course; we've all seen that. New RF lens: lighter, smaller, ?? better optics. If Canon wants to signal that the R series is for demanding pros, they need the glass that serious pros will want to use. See the new 50 f/1.2 as an example.
> 
> Pros are smart -- and cheap!  They don't buy new glass for the sake of new glass but because it fills a need. Sure, someone with a new EF 400 f/2.8 III isn't buying the RF anytime soon. But there are lots of working pros who would be in the market for new glass. Canon needs to have something for them.



The benefit of the shorter registration distance only applies to lenses with wider apertures and normal to wide angle focal lengths. An RF 400mm f/2.8 would be no smaller/lighter/cheaper than an EF 400mm f/2.8 of similar technology and optics.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 17, 2018)

justaCanonuser said:


> I'd appreciate if Canon would implement a better phase AF system in the 7D3. The not very reliable phase AF system is one of few downsides of the 7D2, but a really annoying one compared with my 5D3. Plus, of course, a 7D3 would need a good 4K video, that can also be used by stills shooter for very high fps rates. This camera is about action in a small body. And Canon should stick with an SLR design. Shooting e.g. wildlife you can peer through the OVP and tele lens for hours without draining the battery.



It seems to me that the biggest difference between the AF systems in the 5D3 and 7D2 are the respective baselines allowed by the difference in the respective sensor/mirror sizes. APS-C will always require a narrower baseline than FF can use.


----------



## Romz26 (Sep 17, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> Given Jared Polin's video, and what Canon's been developing with the M50, oh boy you're going to get disappointed.
> 
> With mirrorless cameras, it's crucial to understand that no blackout =/= actually seeing what's happening in real time. Remember : you're looking at a screen. And if there's anything Hollywood should teach you about screens, is that it's not reality !
> 
> ...




I rewatched the part where fro's video shows the view finder...dang how did i miss the slide show effect?! 

All i really want in this camera is atleast 8fps with ai servo, and better noise control then the 7d(I know this one is true)


----------



## MayaTlab (Sep 17, 2018)

Romz26 said:


> All i really want in this camera is atleast 8fps with ai servo



I don't think that this will be possible via a firmware update (sensor readout speed is too slow and I believe that stills DPAF sensors can't gather both image and AF information at the same time), so maybe wait for the next one :/.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Sep 17, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> It seems to me that the biggest difference between the AF systems in the 5D3 and 7D2 are the respective baselines allowed by the difference in the respective sensor/mirror sizes. APS-C will always require a narrower baseline than FF can use.


This could well explain why the 7D's phase AF systems massively improves in very bright settings, thank you.


----------



## pap-x (Sep 17, 2018)

I don't get why people think that* K435* and *K436* are 7diii or 90d related. Battery level indication on those cameras is in 6 levels not 4, why would Canon downgrade them? I'm 99% sure that those models are probably the 850D and the 78D, as Rebels are announced around spring time every year. They will have the same sensor with the current models with maybe more DPAF points and new processor (Digic 8).


----------



## jeffa4444 (Sep 17, 2018)

The guys at Canon are chuckling to themselves reading all these comments. You dont make a RF 28-85mm f2L lens and a RF 50mm f1.2L lens if your not going to make a professional body as well. Photokina is annual from next year most likely Canon will launch something ahead of this in May 2019.


----------



## Romz26 (Sep 17, 2018)

MayaTlab said:


> so maybe wait for the next one :/.



Thats the plan, may get a new lens in the mean time.


----------



## Sibir Lupus (Sep 17, 2018)

fullstop said:


> *EC 811 = EOS M5 II*
> Mirrorless camera, APS-C, Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed, Maximum image size of test machine: 6000 × 4000, Probably released in 2019
> 
> *EC 812 = EOS M6 II*
> Mirrorless camera, APS-C, Wi-Fi · Bluetooth installed, Maximum image size of test machine: 6000 × 4000, Probably released in 2019 or later



I'm hoping this is the case, but I'm also hoping it isn't going to be a late 2019 release for the M5 Mark II.


----------



## tron (Sep 17, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> The guys at Canon are chuckling to themselves reading all these comments. You dont make a RF 28-85mm f2L lens and a RF 50mm f1.2L lens if your not going to make a professional body as well. Photokina is annual from next year most likely Canon will launch something ahead of this in May 2019.


It's RF 28-70mm f2L not 28-85


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 17, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> Somehow I rather doubt this, at least in a literal sense. Are there many saying that the Sony A9, in spite of all the praise that can be directed toward it, is a replacement for the 1DX2 in all respects? Then, assuming some of Canon's mirrorless capabilities don't even match Sony, how can they produce a replacement for the 1DX2 that is mirrorless? I'm not saying it couldn't be a higher level but replacement, that's asking a lot.
> 
> Jack



The sea change that has occurred in the past five years in how photojournalists, particularly those shooting sports, are hired and who buys the gear they use is going to affect what they want in that gear. Price/cost is more important than it ever has been in the past for PJs.

I know a veteran PJ who just retired from a staff position with a statewide online news service that was originally formed by the three or four largest newspapers in the state. As a staffer, he was issued gear that included a Canon 1D X (his last one may have been a Mark II), and big glass like the 300/2.8 and 400/2.8.

Now that he is freelancing he must provide his own gear.

He went with the Sony α9.

The primary reason was because the α9 was considerably cheaper than a 1D X Mark II, but also because he felt the IQ and IBIS were enough better that he can get away a little more with shooting using a 70-200/2.8 and cropping a lot of the things for which he used to use a company issued 300/2.8 or 400/2.8. Non-pros may consider a 70-200/2.8 to be _expensive, _but it's nothing compared to the cost of a 300/2.8 or 400/2.8! He's also getting to the age where the lighter weight of a 70-200/2.8 compared to a 300/2.8 or 400/2.8 is becoming more and more of a consideration when running up and down the sidelines of field sports.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 17, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> Some disagree with me when I say that Canon is at the top of the food chain when it comes to knowing how to segment their products. But even this set of leaked specs proves just how far they'll go to artificially segment their products. Anyone know what I'm referring to?
> The damn battery indicator! Some of the cameras (lower-tier, presumably) have a 4-level battery indicator while some have a 6-level battery indicator. Come the f*** on, Canon! Could you BE a touch more pedantic?
> Not to hold Sony up as some paragon of camera design, but everything, from their lowly A5100 up to the A9 all display the percent left of the battery. How hard is that to implement so you don't have to dive into the menus to find it? Seems like an exact measure would be ideal yet Canon (and Nikon) want to stick with a dumb image of a battery with segments on it.



Yeah, I mean who cares if the "exact" percentages aren't really that accurate in terms of how many shots one has left compared to how many shots one has already taken?

It makes the spec sheet look better, right?


----------



## fullstop (Sep 17, 2018)

well we had the battery gauge topic already. I just repeat that it is absolutely shameful - or rather shameless - how Canon does not even stop short of using such small, no-cost items to marketing-NERF its products.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 17, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> The sea change that has occurred in the past five years in how photojournalists, particularly those shooting sports, are hired and who buys the gear they use is going to affect what they want in that gear. Price/cost is more important than it ever has been in the past for PJs.
> 
> I know a veteran PJ who just retired from a staff position with a statewide online news service that was originally formed by the three or four largest newspapers in the state. As a staffer, he was issued gear that included a Canon 1D X (his last one may have been a Mark II), and big glass like the 300/2.8 and 400/2.8.
> 
> ...



Well, I have no crystal ball so your thoughts are as valid as mine. We shall see.

Jack


----------



## privatebydesign (Sep 17, 2018)

I have another anecdotal tale, a well regarded internationally accredited long term Canon using golf and tennis shooter team, they have just sold their 1DX MkII, 1DX MkI, 5D MkIV and 5DSr and gone to 2 A9's. Their primary reasons were silent shutter (becoming compulsory for golf) and 20fps with no blackout.

Indeed times are changing, all we can hope to do is prioritize features most valuable to our own shooting situations and choose wisely based on that. I was pretty sure I'd be getting a 5DSr to compliment the 1DX MkII's, but given the different feature set the R's offer I am thinking I will wait until they make a high resolution FF mirrorless to round out/maximise my gear capabilities.


----------



## takesome1 (Sep 17, 2018)

ken said:


> There are a lot of good points here, but consider that (according to the US Department of Labor) there are roughly 49,000 professional photographers in the United States. (see https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes274021.htm ) That's a pretty small number. (Compare to 183K Electrical Engineers, for example) I can't think of any reason that other countries would have significantly higher percentages of their population working in the field of photography.
> 
> So clearly Canon isn't making the cameras just for those pros. They're way too small of a group. So why has Canon always cared about the pros so much? Because of their influence. But you know who has come along and stolen a ton of the pro photographer's influence on the camera buying public? YouTube and Instagram influencers. Not trying to disparage the YouTubers, but a lot of them don't fit the "pro photographer" mold. They really are more focussed on talking about gear, unboxing new gear, giving advice, and being talking heads in general. But their influence has become huge. Things have changed. I'm sure Canon is well aware of it. Ask yourself: which has more influence? The brief glimpse of photogs at an Olympic event shooting with white lenses (which doesn't necessarily even mean Canon any longer), or a vlogger with over a million subscribers telling everyone their detailed opinions on a new Canon release?
> 
> I'm not trying to imply Canon doesn't care about the pro photographer. They clearly have some hard-won respect with their unrivaled CPS and they don't want to give that up. But I think a lot of commenters here credit the pro photographers as having way more influence on Canon's planning than they probably have at this point in time.



Capturing the Pro market has been a Canon strategy for years. This isn't going to change. 
Word of mouth is still a greater marketing strategy than You Tube. 
Advanced Amateurs watch what the Pro's are using.
Relatives, beginners and friends come to the Pro's and Amateurs to find out what they should be buying.

The other thing is I know several people who think they could be You Tube millionaires, many people do and it becomes a joke. These bloggers many people take with a grain of salt when watching.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 17, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> Capturing the Pro market has been a Canon strategy for years. This isn't going to change.
> Word of mouth is still a greater marketing strategy than You Tube.
> Advanced Amateurs watch what the Pro's are using.
> Relatives, beginners and friends come to the Pro's and Amateurs to find out what they should be buying.
> ...



Maybe. But it seems to me that youTube is becoming more and more influential in that respect.

In the past, friends/relatives/acquaintances would mostly accept my advice at face value. Now when friends/relatives/acquaintances ask me about gear, they get a puzzled look on their faces and start talking about the youTube videos they've watched that say "so and so" if I express an opinion that is different from the prevailing view on youTube.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 17, 2018)

sleepnever said:


> Man. I've been holding out on the rumor that we'd see a 5DsR II (whatever you want to officially name it) in early 2019. None of those specs are at 50MP+ resolutions, let alone 45 something. I was hoping they would have announced something at the camera shows this year. Nada. I guess worst case scenario, for landscape work, I can grab a (cringe) Sony A7R3 and adapt my much loved Canon glass and keep my 5D3 as an all around. sigh. I really don't want to switch systems, but I do want to upgrade and have access to that newer tech.



I was hoping for a 5DsR2 as well and further hoping Canon will deliver that in a MILC format. I would be fine without 4k video if that is around $3k mark. The most important thing for me in that is no AA filter. Like I said in another post my hopes for this camera is fading away. I get a feeling Canon might not deliver a successor to that. Let's hope not.


----------



## takesome1 (Sep 18, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> Maybe. But it seems to me that youTube is becoming more and more influential in that respect.
> 
> In the past, friends/relatives/acquaintances would mostly accept my advice at face value. Now when friends/relatives/acquaintances ask me about gear, they get a puzzled look on their faces and start talking about the youTube videos they've watched that say "so and so" if I express an opinion that is different from the prevailing view on youTube.



I usually ask them why they wanted my opinion. 
The same person probably gets their news from Yahoo.
They should take the You Tubers opinion. After all the guy did get .76 of a cents worth of opinion. Not even a full 2 cents worth.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 18, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> I usually ask them why they wanted my opinion.
> The same person probably gets their news from Yahoo.
> They should take the You Tubers opinion. After all the guy did get .76 of a cents worth of opinion. Not even a full 2 cents worth.



Your original statement was:



takesome1 said:


> Capturing the Pro market has been a Canon strategy for years. This isn't going to change.
> Word of mouth is still a greater marketing strategy than You Tube.
> Advanced Amateurs watch what the Pro's are using.
> Relatives, beginners and friends come to the Pro's and Amateurs to find out what they should be buying.
> ...



Are you now agreeing that youTube might have more influence than it once did over what people buy?

The influence of the youTube pot stirrers has reached a point where the camera makers are having to pay attention to it and it seems to be affecting the way they design their products.

Gone are they days when a team designing a lens primarily intended for portrait work would place smooth bokeh as a more highly desired attribute than absolute sharpness from corner to corner when imaging a flat test chart. Gone are the days when overall image quality at typically viewed sizes was a more important consideration than total megapixels and IQ at 100% pixel peeping magnifications.

More and more the cameras and lenses from all of the manufacturers are being designed to look good on the spec sheet and at DxO Mark. The actual appropriateness of the camera or lens for a specific intended task is no longer important. It's how the youTubers will react to the spec sheet and the DxO Mark results that matters now.


----------



## takesome1 (Sep 18, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> Your original statement was:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Of course You Tubers have more influence than they once did. Before 2005 they had none.

The Pro's influence trickles down and is still more relevant. 

Do you have research data that shows differently?


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 18, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> The actual appropriateness of the camera or lens for a specific intended task *is no longer important*.


Help, is this what is called a "blanket" statement? 

Jack


----------



## ken (Sep 19, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> Of course You Tubers have more influence than they once did. Before 2005 they had none.
> 
> The Pro's influence trickles down and is still more relevant.
> 
> Do you have research data that shows differently?



I bet he has the same amount of research that you have for the statement "The Pro's influence trickles down and is still more relevant."


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 19, 2018)

I have no information, I'm pulling this out of my ass, but I suspect in terms of number 1 most important influencer for purchasing choices:

Low end (<$500 cameras) = Amazon (etc) reviews.
Medium (500-3000) = Youtube channels.
High (3000+) = Dedicated information sites such as this.


----------



## tron (Sep 19, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> I have no information, I'm pulling this out of my ass, but I suspect in terms of number 1 most important influencer for purchasing choices:
> 
> Low end (<$500 cameras) = Amazon (etc) reviews.
> Medium (500-3000) = Youtube channels.
> High (3000+) = Dedicated information sites such as this.


This seems reasonable enough but on second thought i have never gotten any information from youtube. Maybe it is also age dependent and/or the limit of 3000 should be lowered too.


----------



## ritholtz (Sep 19, 2018)

Looks like R mount makes sense for crop users to upgrade to FF. They can continue using their EF-S lens in crop mode. Need to wait for Rebel version of R. Hopefully there is a $1k model from Canon to ramp up their market share.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 19, 2018)

tron said:


> This seems reasonable enough but on second thought i have never gotten any information from youtube. Maybe it is also age dependent and/or the limit of 3000 should be lowered too.



And some of us consider/search for it all. The more it costs the more I search.

Jack


----------



## SaP34US (Sep 19, 2018)

GaryUK said:


> K433: 6240 x 4160. Same res as a 6Dii. So maybe nothing new.
> 
> K437: 6960 × 4640 Not the same as a 5D4 (6750 x 4500)
> 
> So maybe a new sensor will arrive, perhaps K437 = 5D5.


Is K437 a DSLR or a Mirrorless? It is interesting that it is a slightly larger sensor. Maybe it will have uncropped 4K.


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 20, 2018)

sleepnever said:


> Man. I've been holding out on the rumor that we'd see a 5DsR II (whatever you want to officially name it) in early 2019. None of those specs are at 50MP+ resolutions, let alone 45 something. I was hoping they would have announced something at the camera shows this year. Nada. I guess worst case scenario, for landscape work, I can grab a (cringe) Sony A7R3 and adapt my much loved Canon glass and keep my 5D3 as an all around. sigh. I really don't want to switch systems, but I do want to upgrade and have access to that newer tech.



Why would you grab a Sony A7R3 when you can grab a 5Ds or 5Dsr? Especially given their gray market prices (about $2200).


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 20, 2018)

goldenhusky said:


> I was hoping for a 5DsR2 as well and further hoping Canon will deliver that in a MILC format. I would be fine without 4k video if that is around $3k mark. The most important thing for me in that is no AA filter. Like I said in another post my hopes for this camera is fading away. I get a feeling Canon might not deliver a successor to that. Let's hope not.



It's a given that Canon will introduce another high rez 35mm sensor body. When is the question.

But if you don't already have a 5Dsr and are holding out for "the latest tech" or a mirrorless version then you are only cheating yourself. The IQ is phenomenal. Buy one today and don't worry about when Canon will release the upgrade. When they do you have your primary and backup cams.


----------



## goldenhusky (Sep 21, 2018)

dtaylor said:


> It's a given that Canon will introduce another high rez 35mm sensor body. When is the question.
> 
> But if you don't already have a 5Dsr and are holding out for "the latest tech" or a mirrorless version then you are only cheating yourself. The IQ is phenomenal. Buy one today and don't worry about when Canon will release the upgrade. When they do you have your primary and backup cams.



Thanks for you response. I did rent the 5DsR but did not like it for wildlife photography which is the most I do. It was too noisy and after using 5D4 I also did not like the lack of touch screen. At this point I am shooting Canon 5D4 and Sony a9 and a7r3. I am good with the resolution and speed of a7r3. One of the biggest down side I have with Sony is lack of native 600mm f/4 lens. Still I am interested in high res Canon camera to pair with the Canon EF 600mm f/4.


----------



## Ozarker (Sep 22, 2018)

Buy what best suits your needs today. Then, when time to upgrade, the camera you thought you wanted tomorrow will be there. For most there really isn't a whole lot of difference to warrant fretting. Personal skill will make far more difference than a stop of DR, etc. Unless you are just a gear collector... then fret away.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 22, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Buy what best suits your needs today.



This.

And moreover, don’t succumb to the false notion that what you bought yesterday affects what you can/should buy today. They’re independent events.

(In other words, your lenses don’t captivate you)


----------



## Jethro (Sep 22, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> (In other words, your lenses don’t captivate you)


A couple of mine still do captivate me (), but you're right that they shouldn't hold us captive to a particular body ...


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 23, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> This.
> 
> And moreover, don’t succumb to the false notion that what you bought yesterday affects what you can/should buy today. They’re independent events.
> 
> (In other words, your lenses don’t captivate you)



I think you meant you're not captive to your lenses? I'm captivated by my 400.

Jack


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 23, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> I think you meant you're not captive to your lenses? I'm captivated by my 400.
> 
> Jack



I meant it in this sense. I was not aware it was obsolete.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 23, 2018)

3kramd5 said:


> I meant it in this sense. I was not aware it was obsolete.



I'm lost a little on the "obsolete" part of the statement - must have missed something further back.

Jack


----------



## 3kramd5 (Sep 23, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> I'm lost a little on the "obsolete" part of the statement - must have missed something further back.
> 
> Jack



The dictionary calls my usage obsolete, it’s in the screenshot immediately above


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 23, 2018)

OK, it finally sunk in through my thick skull.

Jack


----------



## canonmike (Sep 23, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> The guys at Canon are chuckling to themselves reading all these comments. You dont make a RF 28-85mm f2L lens and a RF 50mm f1.2L lens if your not going to make a professional body as well. Photokina is annual from next year most likely Canon will launch something ahead of this in May 2019.


I certainly concur with your first two sentences, in total. However, I believe there is still insufficient information to make an informed decision or even a good guess as to a much wanted RF pro body release date. Bring it on Canon. You started something here so run with it and wow us. We're waiting.


----------



## canonmike (Sep 24, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> Your original statement was:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Understand your point here but not sure I can agree with the last paragraph, at least where Canon is concerned. If they really were influenced by YTr's opinions and expectations and DxO scores, they would not have produced a FF mirrorless camera without IBIS and uncropped 4K. They completely bucked the commentary and went full speed ahead without the features that the former think are absolutely positively necessary to be a viable offering in the mirrorless market.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 24, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> I have no information, I'm pulling this out of my ass, but I suspect in terms of number 1 most important influencer for purchasing choices:
> 
> Low end (<$500 cameras) = Amazon (etc) reviews.
> Medium (500-3000) = Youtube channels.
> High (3000+) = Dedicated information sites such as this.



Back when the #1 purchasers of pro-grade cameras, by a fairly large margin, were the photo departments of newspapers/magazines, the #1 most important influencer was compatibility with what the buyer's equipment cabinet already had in it.




goldenhusky said:


> Thanks for you response. I did rent the 5DsR but did not like it for wildlife photography which is the most I do. It was too noisy and after using 5D4 I also did not like the lack of touch screen. At this point I am shooting Canon 5D4 and Sony a9 and a7r3. I am good with the resolution and speed of a7r3. One of the biggest down side I have with Sony is lack of native 600mm f/4 lens. Still I am interested in high res Canon camera to pair with the Canon EF 600mm f/4.



Do you realize that when you adapt a non-Sony lens to the α9 your maximum frame rate when doing AF between each frame drops to about 5 fps?



canonmike said:


> Understand your point here but not sure I can agree with the last paragraph, at least where Canon is concerned. If they really were influenced by YTr's opinions and expectations and DxO scores, they would not have produced a FF mirrorless camera without IBIS and uncropped 4K. They completely bucked the commentary and went full speed ahead without the features that the former think are absolutely positively necessary to be a viable offering in the mirrorless market.



You are assuming they could have included IBIS and uncropped 4K if they had wanted to. The prevailing opinion among outsiders not privy to Canon's internal secrets is that, at least in the case of uncropped 4K, their current sensor technology does not read out fast enough to support it using a 30+ MP Dual Pixel sensor.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 24, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> Of course You Tubers have more influence than they once did. Before 2005 they had none.
> 
> The Pro's influence trickles down and is still more relevant.
> 
> Do you have research data that shows differently?



No I do not. But you can bet the farm Canon does.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 24, 2018)

Jack Douglas said:


> Help, is this what is called a "blanket" statement?
> 
> Jack



Based on every prime lens release from Canon in the past 3-5 years, it's just an accurate observation.


----------



## Jack Douglas (Sep 24, 2018)

I still call it a blanket statement and blanket statements are seldom 100% or even close to 100% correct. But that's just my opinion and what do I know.

Jack


----------



## RGF (Sep 24, 2018)

Labdoc said:


> Looks like no new 5DsR in the pipeline, very disappointing. Was hoping for a high MP pro MLC. Tempted by the new 50 1.2 but not enough to replace the 5D4 or 5DsR.



Nor 7D M2 replacement?


----------



## RGF (Sep 24, 2018)

jebrady03 said:


> Some disagree with me when I say that Canon is at the top of the food chain when it comes to knowing how to segment their products. But even this set of leaked specs proves just how far they'll go to artificially segment their products. Anyone know what I'm referring to?
> The damn battery indicator! Some of the cameras (lower-tier, presumably) have a 4-level battery indicator while some have a 6-level battery indicator. Come the f*** on, Canon! Could you BE a touch more pedantic?
> Not to hold Sony up as some paragon of camera design, but everything, from their lowly A5100 up to the A9 all display the percent left of the battery. How hard is that to implement so you don't have to dive into the menus to find it? Seems like an exact measure would be ideal yet Canon (and Nikon) want to stick with a dumb image of a battery with segments on it.



Yes, Canon does a great job segmenting the marketing place but IMO fails to address some needs. I want 1Dx AF in a body with a crop sensor. Nikon keeps roughly the same AF in pro and pro sumer bodies. Canon does not, if you want great AF buy a 1Dx M2.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 24, 2018)

RGF said:


> Yes, Canon does a great job segmenting the marketing place but IMO fails to address some needs. I want 1Dx AF in a body with a crop sensor. Nikon keeps roughly the same AF in pro and pro sumer bodies. Canon does not, if you want great AF buy a 1Dx M2.


Canon does have pretty much the same AF in the 7D2 as in the 1Dx series - the difference is that the metering sensor is 150,000ixels as opposed to the 1Dx 300,000 pixel and from what I understand this is pretty much the as with the Nikon D500/D5 models. So I am not sure what you mean that Nikon do something that Canon does not.


----------



## jolyonralph (Sep 24, 2018)

I think a good option would be for the 'shots remaining' indicator to have an option to show the estimated number of shots left on the card or the estimated number of shots remaining until the battery dies. The two numbers could be different colours, for example red number = shots remaining until battery expires, white = number remaining until card is full.

Probably the sensible logic for this would be to switch over to showing 'battery remaining' shots once the battery gets lower than 40% or so. Maybe a little battery symbol next to the number so you also know the number relates to battery and not to card storage.

But with a modern card I hardly ever get close to filling the card. The number of shots remaining on battery power is much more useful.


----------



## takesome1 (Sep 24, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> No I do not. But you can bet the farm Canon does.



I think they do, and that is why the released the RF 28-70 2.0 as an initial lens release.
To make a statement that they see the importance of the Pro's.


----------



## canonmike (Sep 24, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> Back when the #1 purchasers of pro-grade cameras, by a fairly large margin, were the photo departments of newspapers/magazines, the #1 most important influencer was compatibility with what the buyer's equipment cabinet already had in it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a very good point, echoed by Canon's engineers recently. That does not, however, indicate they were influenced by You Tubers but rather restricted by technology or perhaps, lact thereof. That leaves us all wondering how we will possibly get a better Pro R version anytime soon without improved sensor technology or using someone else's sensor. We all hope they will come up with a viable solution.


----------



## RGF (Sep 24, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Canon does have pretty much the same AF in the 7D2 as in the 1Dx series - the difference is that the metering sensor is 150,000ixels as opposed to the 1Dx 300,000 pixel and from what I understand this is pretty much the as with the Nikon D500/D5 models. So I am not sure what you mean that Nikon do something that Canon does not.



I along with many other photographers I shoot with, all have said that the 1Dx M2 AF is significantly better than the AF in the 7D M2.

On a recent shoot of flying raptors, I compared the keeper ratio between my 1Dx M2 w/ 200-400 vs Nikon D500 w/ Sigma 150-600 contemporary - the Nikon won.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 24, 2018)

RGF said:


> I along with many other photographers I shoot with, all have said that the 1Dx M2 AF is significantly better than the AF in the 7D M2.
> 
> On a recent shoot of flying raptors, I compared the keeper ratio between my 1Dx M2 w/ 200-400 vs Nikon D500 w/ Sigma 150-600 contemporary - the Nikon won.



I agree. But what did you expect that when the metering sensor (which is used by the AF) is half the size, the battery is significantly smaller and it has only one processor to do AF and other functions? Unless you can show me otherwise, I believe the same comparison applies to the D500 vs D5.
And I have also heard many times that the D500 is better than the 7Dii for tracking birds in flight, but that does not mean the D500 is any more similar to the performance of the D5 than the 7D2 is to the 1Dx2.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 24, 2018)

canonmike said:


> That is a very good point, echoed by Canon's engineers recently. That does not, however, indicate they were influenced by You Tubers but rather restricted by technology or perhaps, lact thereof. That leaves us all wondering how we will possibly get a better Pro R version anytime soon without improved sensor technology or using someone else's sensor. We all hope they will come up with a viable solution.



As always, define 'better'. Without any idea of what you have in mind it is a pointless comment.


----------



## canonmike (Sep 24, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> As always, define 'better'. Without any idea of what you have in mind it is a pointless comment.


Well, sir, I am just in awe that the great Mike_hit would make time to reply to my pointless comment.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 24, 2018)

canonmike said:


> Well, sir, I am just in awe that the great Mike_hit would make time to reply to my pointless comment.


Sarcasm aside, what do you mean by 'better'? It probably means different things to me than it does to you...or anyone else.


----------



## SaP34US (Sep 24, 2018)

Will there be any more cameras next year other then the ones that we have seen the certifcations for?


----------



## canonmike (Sep 24, 2018)

Mikehit said:


> Sarcasm aside, what do you mean by 'better'? It probably means different things to me than it does to you...or anyone else.


You already established the questionable use of the word "better" here, so, with the level of erudition that you bring to the CR roundtable, I'm a little surprised at your use of the word "probably." Do I dare engage in verbal volleyball with a person expressing a comment that would be, "probably pointless" on your side of the table. I think not.


----------



## Mikehit (Sep 24, 2018)

Would it help if I re-worded my previous post as 



> As always in these situations, it would help the discussion if you explained how you define 'better'. Without our having any idea of what you have in mind it is a pointless comment for anyone wanting to discuss it with you.


----------



## Michael Clark (Sep 25, 2018)

RGF said:


> Yes, Canon does a great job segmenting the marketing place but IMO fails to address some needs. I want 1Dx AF in a body with a crop sensor. Nikon keeps roughly the same AF in pro and pro sumer bodies. Canon does not, if you want great AF buy a 1Dx M2.





Mikehit said:


> Canon does have pretty much the same AF in the 7D2 as in the 1Dx series - the difference is that the metering sensor is 150,000ixels as opposed to the 1Dx 300,000 pixel and from what I understand this is pretty much the as with the Nikon D500/D5 models. So I am not sure what you mean that Nikon do something that Canon does not.






RGF said:


> I along with many other photographers I shoot with, all have said that the 1Dx M2 AF is significantly better than the AF in the 7D M2.
> 
> On a recent shoot of flying raptors, I compared the keeper ratio between my 1Dx M2 w/ 200-400 vs Nikon D500 w/ Sigma 150-600 contemporary - the Nikon won.






Mikehit said:


> I agree. But what did you expect that when the metering sensor (which is used by the AF) is half the size, the battery is significantly smaller and it has only one processor to do AF and other functions? Unless you can show me otherwise, I believe the same comparison applies to the D500 vs D5.
> And I have also heard many times that the D500 is better than the 7Dii for tracking birds in flight, but that does not mean the D500 is any more similar to the performance of the D5 than the 7D2 is to the 1Dx2.



It's more than just what a manufacturer "decides" to give each model. The physics involved will always constrain the PDAF system in an APS-C camera more than the exact same technology in a FF camera.

The larger sensor of a FF camera, and the resulting wider mirror size which allows a wider semi-translucent portion of the mirror, allows a wider baseline for the PDAF system.

It's more noticeable when comparing APS-C and FF Canon cameras because Canon tunes many of their AF points to operate at wider apertures in order to give them more sensitivity. Nikon tends to tune most of their AF points to work with narrower apertures in order to make them usable with more lenses. This makes the difference less noticeable when comparing the performance of APS-C and FF Nikon cameras.

P.S. What is a Canon 1Dx or 1Dx2? Do you mean the Canon 1D X and 1D X Mark II? Dx is a Nikon thing designating an APS-C sized sensor or a lens made to cast an image circle size for such a sensor.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 25, 2018)

takesome1 said:


> I think they do, and that is why the released the RF 28-70 2.0 as an initial lens release.
> To make a statement that they see the importance of the Pro's.



It could just as easily be interpreted to mean they see the importance of what youTubers will say regarding the direction Canon is going with their mirrorless systems.

Introducing very high quality (and priced) lenses has probably reduced the amount of flaming from youTubers regarding the fairly pedestrian specs of the EOS R because they are more or less forced to acknowledge (or, if they do not, they come off looking a bit unperceptive) that a higher level FF ML camera seems to be on the way from Canon.

The fact that Canon is hinting that a higher end EOS R is on the way does not necessarily equate to the idea that Canon thinks the rapidly thinning ranks of true 'Pro' photographers are still more influential in what everyone else buys than the rapidly expanding number of youTube "pro" reviewers.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 25, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> I think a good option would be for the 'shots remaining' indicator to have an option to show the estimated number of shots left on the card or the estimated number of shots remaining until the battery dies. The two numbers could be different colours, for example red number = shots remaining until battery expires, white = number remaining until card is full.
> 
> Probably the sensible logic for this would be to switch over to showing 'battery remaining' shots once the battery gets lower than 40% or so. Maybe a little battery symbol next to the number so you also know the number relates to battery and not to card storage.
> 
> But with a modern card I hardly ever get close to filling the card. The number of shots remaining on battery power is much more useful.



More useful for you and other shooters that shoot the same way you do. On the other hand, many of us who shoot sports or events swap cards far more often than we swap batteries, particularly if we use vertical grips that hold two batteries.


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## Talys (Sep 25, 2018)

Michael Clark said:


> More useful for you and other shooters that shoot the same way you do. On the other hand, many of us who shoot sports or events swap cards far more often than we swap batteries, particularly if we use vertical grips that hold two batteries.


Or, just have batteries in high end bodies that aren't anemic. If I know I can get 8 hours of shooting hard with everything going and 16 hours gripped, then 1/4 battery means that if my event is going to be more than a couple of hours longer, I better have a spare just in case. 

I really don't want to sweat it about batteries about swapping them. Really, what I want is one fully charged battery to run a full day of pretty heavy use.


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## jolyonralph (Sep 25, 2018)

Technological advancement normally comes with some penalties relating to power usage. Compare modern smartphones to pre-smartphones that would work great for a week or more on a single charge.

How often did you have to change the battery in your 35mm film SLR?

WIth mirrorless you're going to get shorter battery life than a DSLR for the same capacity battery. That's pretty much unavoidable. With a 128GB or 256GB card I find however much I shoot I'm pretty much not going to fill up the card in one day, even with full-size raw files at 50 megapixels.


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