# Pro Mirrorless Mentions and More



## Canon Rumors Guy (Nov 9, 2015)

```
<p><a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/mirrorless.html" target="_blank">Keith over at Northlight</a> received some suggestions of new products to expect in 2016.</p>
<p>Pro Level Mirrorless Camera (and more)</p>
<ul>
<li>Expanding the EF-M system</li>
<li>First ConnectedCamera device</li>
<li>New technology sensor (APS-C)</li>
<li>Built in EEVF viewfinder</li>
<li>Pro level AF performance</li>
<li>Best in class video capability</li>
<li>Pro build quality with enhanced ergonomics</li>
<li>Wider support for the EF lens family</li>
</ul>
<p>This won’t come until after the EOS M3 gets an update in early 2016.</p>
<p>There was also a mention of a new full frame camera being announced for Photokina, Perhaps the EOS 6D Mark II? We expect to see an EOS-1D X and EOS 5D Mark IV before the September 2016 show.</p>
<p>More to come…</p>
```


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## tyger11 (Nov 9, 2015)

Best in class video? That's setting unrealistic expectations, I bet, but I'd be happy to be surprised.


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## RGF (Nov 9, 2015)

new sensor technology

Will Canon release a layered sensor like the Foveon? 

Bit surprising they would first introduce in the APS-C body until production is difficult.


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## brad-man (Nov 9, 2015)

So it's apparently not a version of the M3. Sounds like a totally new camera with the M mount with all sorts of cutting edge stuff. This rumor stuff can be exasperating


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## Lee Jay (Nov 9, 2015)

What is an EEVF?


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 10, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> What is an EEVF?



I speculate:

Enhanced EVF

-or-

Economical EVF

Canon will call it the former, at least in public material.


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## ahsanford (Nov 10, 2015)

'Pro mirrorless' sounds a lot more like the enthusiast EOS-M rig we've been asking for. Integral EVF + better AF are musts for that segment, IMHO, so I'm glad to see Canon slowly smell the coffee and join the world. I'm eager to see what they come up with.

What does "Wider support for the EF lens family" mean? Don't _all_ EF lenses work just fine through that adapter, or is some EF glass locked out from working?

- A


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## applecider (Nov 10, 2015)

And does the m mount support full frame direct connection? I thought it was physically too small, might be wrong though.


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## Narretz (Nov 10, 2015)

Oh, so the pro mirrorless is APS-C? I assumed it would be FF.


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## Zv (Nov 10, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> 'Pro mirrorless' sounds a lot more like the enthusiast EOS-M rig we've been asking for. Integral EVF + better AF are musts for that segment, IMHO, so I'm glad to see Canon slowly smell the coffee and join the world. I'm eager to see what they come up with.
> 
> What does "Wider support for the EF lens family" mean? Don't _all_ EF lenses work just fine through that adapter, or is some EF glass locked out from working?
> 
> - A



Could be that they'll improve the AF with certain lenses with the adaptor so that it's comparable to normal EF mount speeds. Perhaps an updated EF - EFM adaptor to go with it?


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## Deleted member 375103 (Nov 10, 2015)

As long as the price of the other Ms drop with the new release, I'll be happy.


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## Tugela (Nov 10, 2015)

tyger11 said:


> Best in class video? That's setting unrealistic expectations, I bet, but I'd be happy to be surprised.



It will be called "best in class" in the marketing materials. Reality does not have to match that though, they just have to say that it is "the best", and that would be sufficient for most Canonites.


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## Etienne (Nov 10, 2015)

"Best in class video capability" ... makes me think it's a hoax.

I don't think Canon has the ability to beat Sony A7sII, or even Samsung's NX1 for that matter. I'd like to be proven wrong, but there's a long track record of disappointment at this time. Even the C100 mk II was crippled a year ago, and not even a year later it is an embarassment to present it along side the Sony FS5.

Canon has some stiff competition to meet, they can't afford to be stingy today.


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## infared (Nov 10, 2015)

Tugela said:


> tyger11 said:
> 
> 
> > Best in class video? That's setting unrealistic expectations, I bet, but I'd be happy to be surprised.
> ...



There are some great products in the Canon system...no doubt......but sometimes the fanbois definitely drink just a little too much of the Canon CoolAid....  It can be a bit scary at times... LOL!
...based on what Canon has "said" all along about the M system and then what has actually been delivered...I have all the confidence that my investment in a non-Canon mirrorless system for "my " needs will be unshaken. I am still here for the FF dance....even with all the noise out there that says different, though.


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## ahsanford (Nov 10, 2015)

Etienne said:


> "Best in class video capability" ... makes me think it's a hoax.
> 
> I don't think Canon has the ability to beat Sony A7sII, or even Samsung's NX1 for that matter. I'd like to be proven wrong, but there's a long track record of disappointment at this time. Even the C100 mk II was crippled a year ago, and not even a year later it is an embarassment to present it along side the Sony FS5.
> 
> Canon has some stiff competition to meet, they can't afford to be stingy today.



Best in class would not be the A7S II -- that's full frame. 

In APS-C video, they'd only have to beat Fuji (trivial), the A6000 (and its follow up) and Samsung's NX rigs (one of which has 4K).

- A


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## ashmadux (Nov 10, 2015)

Zv said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > 'Pro mirrorless' sounds a lot more like the enthusiast EOS-M rig we've been asking for. Integral EVF + better AF are musts for that segment, IMHO, so I'm glad to see Canon slowly smell the coffee and join the world. I'm eager to see what they come up with.
> ...




Maybe a new lens adapter also? Hmm. Well the old one has been very good to me


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## Bob Howland (Nov 10, 2015)

"Wider support for the EF lens family"

Something similar to a Metabones Speed Booster, perhaps 1-1/3 stops???


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## scottkinfw (Nov 10, 2015)

Suspending for a moment, all skepticism, Canon could knock one out of the ballpark if really, really, done right. On the other hand, it must be scary for them to release a product that could cannibalize their cash cows. I suspect that this in no small way is one factor delaying release of mirrorless from Canon.

Disruptive tech comes along, and it is good for us all. For me though, I'm all in for FF, and I won't be replacing my perfectly good glass. I will watch with great interest, and who knows, maybe one of the the second gen cameras my have my name on it.

sek


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## 9VIII (Nov 10, 2015)

I'm betting this is next-generation Dual Pixel AF.

Hopefully they come up with some creative new ways to use sensor-wide AF.
I think it would be cool to have a track pad or analog stick to move the AF point dynamically. None of this "choose your AF point/pattern" stuff, just move the AF point exactly where you want it on the subject.
Let people make the AF point any shape you want. A circle, a square, an x or +, heck just throw in support for the whole alphabet. Once you're not limited to a set of dots on the screen AF possibilities could get pretty crazy.


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## keriboi (Nov 10, 2015)

Im more interested in the 6Dm2


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## Quackator (Nov 10, 2015)

Zv said:


> Could be that they'll improve the AF with certain lenses with the adaptor so that it's comparable
> to normal EF mount speeds. Perhaps an updated EF - EFM adaptor to go with it?



That would rather be a software/cpu update, as the EF to EF-M adapter is only 
a mechanical thing with all the mount connections simply looping through.

There is as far as I know no electronics, the adapter simply forwards the contacts.


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## FunkyCamera (Nov 10, 2015)

Or maybe Canon could just not waste their time with this and avoid the mirrorless myth.


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## Pitbullo (Nov 10, 2015)

I just hope they go all in when they decide to make a real mirror less effort.


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## Stu_bert (Nov 10, 2015)

Best in class - perhaps they're meaning for Canon cameras not the market in general - as Dilbert pointed out, Northlight says it's on internal marketing slides 

Improved EF support - I thought some owners have highlighted that some lenses work better with the adapter than others. Canon will be spurred into action by the effort Sony has made. It will be interesting if that is just firmware in the camera or tweaks to lens firmware (more problematic to implement).

If it is APS sensor, then Canon only need to worry about the 7D II - I would expect it to be priced higher than the Rebels aka 70D, and it won't be optimised for sport & wildlife like the 7D II. They've avoided any FF competition, so the 5/6/1 cannot be compared and if all of them are being updated next year then the 2016 iterations will keep the gap between FF and APS.

It's all plausible as the best rumours are, but i think if it is indeed aimed at the Pro/Enthusiast market then Canon will have researched the price point closely so it will be interesting to see what the MSRP is.

As on a different thread about mirrorless features and ergonomics by Ming Thein, one area Canon could pull a _rabbit out of the hat_ is carefully thought out operations - making the best of what they have in dSLR ergonomics and offering a "tailored to mirrorless" version - familiar to Canon users but only where it makes sense.


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## StudentOfLight (Nov 10, 2015)

How many stills should you get on a single battery with a pro camera?
How many minutes of video should you get on a single battery with a pro camera?
How many card-slots should you have on a pro camera?


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## 1Zach1 (Nov 10, 2015)

I'll be interested if it's the same size as the M3 (or a bit smaller), if it's the size as the Rebel I'll be a bit disappointed.


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## tcmatthews (Nov 10, 2015)

Pro APS-C, best in class. What Canon needs to match these goals in reality. 

Better styling than a fujifilm
Faster auto-focus than the Sony successor to the A6000
UHS-II cards
4k video internally recorded
Around 10 frames a second continuous auto focus.

I fact just make sure it performs similar the 7D II only smaller. That should get you best in class. I suspect that other than the style points I just laid out the specs for the Sony A7000 that is rumored.

What I am afraid we will get is a camera along the lines of a Sony A6000 with slower auto-focus and a bunch of market speak.


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## Etienne (Nov 10, 2015)

9VIII said:


> I'm betting this is next-generation Dual Pixel AF.
> 
> Hopefully they come up with some creative new ways to use sensor-wide AF.
> I think it would be cool to have a track pad or analog stick to move the AF point dynamically. None of this "choose your AF point/pattern" stuff, just move the AF point exactly where you want it on the subject.
> Let people make the AF point any shape you want. A circle, a square, an x or +, heck just throw in support for the whole alphabet. Once you're not limited to a set of dots on the screen AF possibilities could get pretty crazy.



DPAF would up the ante in video. The implementation on the C300 II is apparently really good. Videographers can count on it to track a face not just in interviews but in shallow DOF shots with lots of camera movement. This would help the one-man-band videographers enormously.
Add no moire or aliasing, 1080p 4:2:2 up to 120fps, and a 4 K mode and I'd be willing to call it best in class.

EDIT: also add touch screen to focus rack with adjustable rack speed


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## AvTvM (Nov 10, 2015)

"Wider support for the EF lens family"
could mean any of these 3 things: 
A. Canon finally puts a sensor with further improved Dual-Pixel AF into an EOS M Body - plus higher performance CPU/DIGIC + better firmware/algorithms -> should help AF performance with adapted EF lenses 

and/or 

B. new/additional EF-M adapter similar to the Sony LP-A3 adapter for A7 series - complete with [translucent, fixed] mirror, dedicated Phase-AF unit and Phase-AF CPU ... to really drive all those [non-STM] USM EF lenses at full speed matching [or besting comparable] EOS DSLRs. After all, that's the approach Sony has chosen too. 

and/or 

C. new/additional "speedbooster" type EF-M adapter


Bob Howland said:


> "Wider support for the EF lens family"
> Something similar to a Metabones Speed Booster, perhaps 1-1/3 stops???



I'd rate [only] A. as most likely.


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## TWI by Dustin Abbott (Nov 10, 2015)

For the moment I'm just happy to hear that the M3 is getting an update that will hopefully address some of the concerns that we will highlight in our review coming this week.


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## ahsanford (Nov 10, 2015)

Stu_bert said:


> As on a different thread about mirrorless features and ergonomics by Ming Thein, one area Canon could pull a _rabbit out of the hat_ is carefully thought out operations - making the best of what they have in dSLR ergonomics and offering a "tailored to mirrorless" version - familiar to Canon users but only where it makes sense.



Yep, that article is here if others haven't read it:
http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/11/03/how-to-design-mirrorless-right/

It should be pointed out that he's used everything and is generally unhappy with it. What he's asking for is a Frankenstein of his favorite features from a bunch of different platforms. He has some wonderful insights, but he'll never get such a camera.

- A


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## nightscape123 (Nov 10, 2015)

Lets hear more about the 6DII please!

Canon has pretty clearly demonstrated they aren't serious about mirrorless and I don't see them catching up. 

The 6DII has much more potential imo!


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## Etienne (Nov 10, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > As on a different thread about mirrorless features and ergonomics by Ming Thein, one area Canon could pull a _rabbit out of the hat_ is carefully thought out operations - making the best of what they have in dSLR ergonomics and offering a "tailored to mirrorless" version - familiar to Canon users but only where it makes sense.
> ...



His suggestions are not at all unreasonable. I suspect that camera will arrive one day


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## AvTvM (Nov 10, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/11/03/how-to-design-mirrorless-right/
> 
> It should be pointed out that he's used everything and is generally unhappy with it. What he's asking for is a Frankenstein of his favorite features from a bunch of different platforms. He has some wonderful insights, but he'll never get such a camera.





ahsanford said:


> http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/11/03/how-to-design-mirrorless-right/
> It should be pointed out that he's used everything and is generally unhappy with it. What he's asking for is a Frankenstein of his favorite features from a bunch of different platforms. He has some wonderful insights, but he'll never get such a camera.



I have gone through his entire requested features list and it is by no means a Frankenstein MILC camera he's requesting. In fact, the only features on that list I really would not need or use is everything to do with manual focusing [e.g. focus peaking]. Everything else really represents the long list of glaring mistakes committed by ALL the MILC makers so far. 

I will not buy another Canon mirrorflipper and no EOS M until they get MUCH closer to my wishlist - both for APS-C and FF-sensored mirrorless cameras and system.


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## PhotographyFirst (Nov 10, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> Stu_bert said:
> 
> 
> > As on a different thread about mirrorless features and ergonomics by Ming Thein, one area Canon could pull a _rabbit out of the hat_ is carefully thought out operations - making the best of what they have in dSLR ergonomics and offering a "tailored to mirrorless" version - familiar to Canon users but only where it makes sense.
> ...



Is it me or is that guy not one of the most whinny and thin-skinned people on the internet? Read the comments where people point out the cameras offering what he wants, but that were left out of the article. It's like reading something by a 14 year old girl who complains about the lack of hair products that suit here first-world needs.


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## ahsanford (Nov 10, 2015)

PhotographyFirst said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > Stu_bert said:
> ...



I'm not calling him the camera-whisperer. His sensibilities are not yours, and calling him out isn't going to change that.

I'm just saying he had some excellent insights:


"Fully customisable auto-ISO with minimum and maximum sensitivity and shutter speed thresholds, including 1/FL or 1/2FL for zooms etc." --> Canon doesn't do this (at least not on my 5D3), and I'd love it if it did. When I use auto-ISO (a huge convenience in walkaround shooting when I have to stick and move), a 1/FL setting would be terrific -- it makes perfect sense.


I'm intrigued by the built-in Arca rails idea. There might be a way to do that without wrecking the comfort of the grip.


A small and large configuration of FF mirrorless could very well be where Canon goes. I think they'd just have two price points and two different sized bodies, but I agree that there are clearly two camps for FF mirrorless and Canon needs to figure out how to placate both.

- A


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## privatebydesign (Nov 10, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> but I agree that there are clearly two camps for FF mirrorless and Canon needs to figure out how to placate both.
> 
> - A



I don't see why. Canon have never tried to compete in every camera niche, if they don't see the money in it I don't see what would compel them to launch cameras in areas they felt are not commercially viable. Sure that might be leaving money on the table for other manufacturers but so what?

I don't understand why everybody thinks Canon 'need' to do this or that or anything else, normally something in line with their personal wishlist, but that isn't how business works. I can see them developing the M10 into the volume companion of the cash cow Rebels, and leveraging an 'enthusiast' M model off that isn't hard. But to think two models of a new line, none of which will be cheap by Canon introductory model standards, is taking that thinking a little far, I believe. The only way they could do that, from a business perspective, is to use the native EF mount, which would alienate half that mythical industry saving FF mirrorless buyer.

Incidentally, what are all these pent up future FF mirrorless people shooting with now?


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## ahsanford (Nov 10, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > but I agree that there are clearly two camps for FF mirrorless and Canon needs to figure out how to placate both.
> ...



Fair. Canon could drive around the 'small' camp as that means a new mount and new lenses. My two recent polls clearly lean towards a 'bigger' rig -- larger grip and the native EF mount were preferred. Perhaps that's Canon most straightforward play in FF mirrorless.

As far as the pent up mirrorless folks, Sony is bulking up its 2nd-gen bodies for a host of reasons, but we all know that larger f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes are coming. Sony is bulking up the platform to compete for bread-and-butter FF SLR professionals.

Those folks from the the first crop of people who were lured to the original A7 bodies for _non-sensor reasons_ -- i.e. the platform being small was their #1 driver -- are not super fond of the A7 platform bulking up. I hear a number of them voice disapproval of added body weight and rumors of large FF glass coming to the platform: "It's supposed to be a small platform", "With today's high ISO sensors, f/4 is the new f/2.8, so please stop making huge lenses", etc. 

So I personally believe there are two major camps in FF mirrorless:


"Keep it as small/light as possible" --> Skinny mirrorless mount, modest grip, f/4 zooms, f/2.8 primes, and limited focal length support (the adapt old lenses people are in here, too)


"I want to be able to do everything I can with my SLR and more" --> EF (or Nikon F) mount, chunky grip, all the big/fast glass they have today, etc.

- A


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## rrcphoto (Nov 10, 2015)

scottkinfw said:


> Suspending for a moment, all skepticism, Canon could knock one out of the ballpark if really, really, done right. On the other hand, it must be scary for them to release a product that could cannibalize their cash cows.


this is always a very weird statement that's not really backed up by any business sense. canon could care less if the margins are the same you purchase a DSLR versus a M, as long as they sell you a camea.



scottkinfw said:


> I suspect that this in no small way is one factor delaying release of mirrorless from Canon.


No, what's delaying the release is that there is very little in the way of momentum or sales for mirrorless.


scottkinfw said:


> Disruptive tech comes along, and it is good for us all.



there's no disruptive technology in mirrorless. the last disruptive technology already happened - it's called your smartphone.


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## rrcphoto (Nov 10, 2015)

TWI by Dustin Abbott said:


> For the moment I'm just happy to hear that the M3 is getting an update that will hopefully address some of the concerns that we will highlight in our review coming this week.


the switch from DSLR firmware to powershot firmware in the M3 was exceedingly painful.

those developers seriously need to up their game - 1fps AEB support isn't even usable and too many features were simply dropped from what we had always had in DSLR's.

TI's got some nice shiny new DSP's and processors but it's all for moot if the developers write bad code.


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## mrsfotografie (Nov 10, 2015)

neuroanatomist said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > What is an EEVF?
> ...



Or a typo? I am also curious to find out....


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## koenkooi (Nov 10, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> "Fully customisable auto-ISO with minimum and maximum sensitivity and shutter speed thresholds, including 1/FL or 1/2FL for zooms etc." --> Canon doesn't do this (at least not on my 5D3), and I'd love it if it did. When I use auto-ISO (a huge convenience in walkaround shooting when I have to stick and move), a 1/FL setting would be terrific -- it makes perfect sense.



As I understand it, the 5Ds/5DsR does allow that. Have a look at http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/4 and scroll down to *Auto ISO (now programmable)*.


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## ahsanford (Nov 10, 2015)

koenkooi said:


> ahsanford said:
> 
> 
> > "Fully customisable auto-ISO with minimum and maximum sensitivity and shutter speed thresholds, including 1/FL or 1/2FL for zooms etc." --> Canon doesn't do this (at least not on my 5D3), and I'd love it if it did. When I use auto-ISO (a huge convenience in walkaround shooting when I have to stick and move), a 1/FL setting would be terrific -- it makes perfect sense.
> ...



Thanks. Did not know that.

- A


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## mrsfotografie (Nov 10, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> koenkooi said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



The customizable auto-iso is one of the best features of the 5DMkIII and some other Canon DSLRs'. I absolutely love this feature and wish my venerable 5DMkII had it, too :-[


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## ahsanford (Nov 10, 2015)

mrsfotografie said:


> The customizable auto-iso is one of the best features of the 5DMkIII and some other Canon DSLRs'. I absolutely love this feature and wish my venerable 5DMkII had it, too :-[



Sure, but we don't have the _good stuff_ on my 5D3. Every time I change my lens out, I need to reset the 1/FL min shutter speed, and I have to pick the most conservative value for a zoom (i.e. 1/125 on my 24-70 as 1/60 might have some misses). In theory -- I haven't used the 1DX/7D2/5DS -- you can just change lenses out and it will simply update automatically, presumably on the fly even with a zoom. That's awesome if so.

People assume you upgrade your bodies for more MP or more FPS or more DR, which is fine. But little things like this are huge conveniences that tip the needle towards 'upgrade' for me. _If only it had spot metering at any AF point..._

#5D4wishlist #iamofftopic

- A


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## jaayres20 (Nov 10, 2015)

"We expect to see an EOS-1D X and EOS 5D Mark IV before the September 2016 show."

I was really wanting to have my hands on a 1DX mark II around April of next year. Not that I need one, but boy do I WANT one. I wish it were sooner than next September. That would be 4-5 years from the announcement of the 1DX.


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## privatebydesign (Nov 11, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > ahsanford said:
> ...



I also think there are two intrenchable opinions on what constitutes a good FF mirrorless, probably more, but I still don't see why that means people think _"Canon needs to figure out how to placate both"_. I can well see Canon being quite happy sticking to APS mirrorless, unless they were smart enough to design the EF-M mount with the 135 format in mind.

Sony will drop cameras sooner or later, the writing is already on the wall with reduced sales volume, and Sony have always been a sales number driven electronics group. They have no connection with their customer base and zero longevity. Canon and Nikon could quite easily just wait them out and let the niche FF mirrorless die out.


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## Zv (Nov 11, 2015)

I'm also quite content with the M line staying APS-C. As long as the sensor is top of the line with DPAF then we're good. A FF sensor'd M would likely mean a costlier, larger body and that would be a bit pointless for travel photography - an area I feel the 6D is already providing for. Why would we want something that's almost the same size and weight and presumably about the same price as the 6D? No advantage other than bragging rights. Keeping it small and compact suits the mirroless agenda better. I think all it needs is to be fully specced, high FPS and all that. 

I wonder how that would affect Rebel and 70D sales though if it had similar specs or better? Is this the reason Canon have delayed an APS-C pro grade mirrorless camera? 

Also, assuming they create a FF mirrorless using the existing EF-M mount that just means we still have to stick an adaptor on the front of it to use our lovely shiny FF lenses. Seems less than ideal. So if they did make it FF it would likely be an EF mount beast. Great, now we've eliminated the adaptor but we have a larger body and same big FF lenses and we can't use EF-M lenses so what was the point of that?


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## ahsanford (Nov 11, 2015)

Zv said:


> I'm also quite content with the M line staying APS-C. As long as the sensor is top of the line with DPAF then we're good. A FF sensor'd M would likely mean a costlier, larger body and that would be a bit pointless for travel photography - an area I feel the 6D is already providing for. Why would we want something that's almost the same size and weight and presumably about the same price as the 6D?



Because a mirrorless rig can do things an SLR cannot. _Get past size. _

Here's my running list of the opportunity of mirrorless over SLRs that has nothing to do with size:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=28037.msg556136#msg556136

Keep in mind: I am not a mirrorless proponent. I prefer SLRs. But the value proposition of future FF mirrorless products (say 3-5 years from now, once AF and lag improves) is _staggeringly_ good, even if it's the exact same size as my 5D3.

- A


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## ahsanford (Nov 11, 2015)

privatebydesign said:


> Sony will drop cameras sooner or later, the writing is already on the wall with reduced sales volume, and Sony have always been a sales number driven electronics group. They have no connection with their customer base and zero longevity. Canon and Nikon could quite easily just wait them out and let the niche FF mirrorless die out.



That's... wow, that's madness. 

I don't expect Sony to conquer the world, but _FF mirrorless is no niche that will die out_ -- it is absolutely the future. Consider: if it is niche today, it's because the two companies with all the lenses hasn't offered such a system yet! 

I'd wager the majority of FF rig sales in 10-15 years will be mirrorless. Only the most demanding gear with the most well-funded photographers (i.e. the 1D sports/wildlife crowd) will still be buying new SLRs then.

Again, see the link in my immediate post above for the clear feature/value upsides to mirrorless.

I could be wrong, but I feel that other than battery life, mirrorless will either eliminate/reduce the differences in performance to SLRs in the next few years and then the upsides of mirrorless will start to shine.

Again: I'm an SLR guy and I do not own a mirrorless rig (other than a cell phone). I just feel that mirrorless is the inevitable future for most of us.

- A


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## mrsfotografie (Nov 11, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > Sony will drop cameras sooner or later, the writing is already on the wall with reduced sales volume, and Sony have always been a sales number driven electronics group. They have no connection with their customer base and zero longevity. Canon and Nikon could quite easily just wait them out and let the niche FF mirrorless die out.
> ...



Actually I can see that would be a strategy that could work, but it depends on both Nikon and Canon holding out... : The way in which Canon's strategy of product lines works, I certainly think it's in alignment with something Canon would consider.

It's not always the 'best' technology that wins in the end, and Sony has lost before. Reference the Betamax vs VHS video tape format. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotape_format_war


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## scottkinfw (Nov 11, 2015)

With good enough performance, I'd consider it for sure. I don't see that for a few more years however. That would be good for me, because I'll be an old(er) fart, and decreased size/weight would likely be better for my hands.



ahsanford said:


> Zv said:
> 
> 
> > I'm also quite content with the M line staying APS-C. As long as the sensor is top of the line with DPAF then we're good. A FF sensor'd M would likely mean a costlier, larger body and that would be a bit pointless for travel photography - an area I feel the 6D is already providing for. Why would we want something that's almost the same size and weight and presumably about the same price as the 6D?
> ...


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## Hjalmarg1 (Nov 11, 2015)

ahsanford said:


> 'Pro mirrorless' sounds a lot more like the enthusiast EOS-M rig we've been asking for. Integral EVF + better AF are musts for that segment, IMHO, so I'm glad to see Canon slowly smell the coffee and join the world. I'm eager to see what they come up with.
> 
> What does "Wider support for the EF lens family" mean? Don't _all_ EF lenses work just fine through that adapter, or is some EF glass locked out from working?
> 
> - A


Sounds like I will be selling my new Fuji mirrorless gear to fund for a hopefuly competent Canon mirrorless


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## Bernard (Nov 11, 2015)

mrsfotografie said:


> It's not always the 'best' technology that wins in the end, and Sony has lost before. Reference the Betamax vs VHS video tape format.



Not that old myth again.

Off topic:
Beta was always a step behind with actual machines that consumers could buy. Sony kept claiming that they had "better technology," based mostly on a slightly more efficient tape transport, but tape transport was never an issue with VHS. Year after year, the best-performing VCRs used VHS and Super-VHS: they had the best high-end stuff, and the best consumer stuff. It's dumbfounding that Sony fanboys are still fighting (and losing) the format wars almost 40 years later.

Back on topic:

I would be happy with an EF-M mount camera that uses the 5Ds sensor. Give it a big battery, and ditch the flash for a good built-in tiltable EVF. It wouldn't have the fastest AF, but that's not important.


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## Maximilian (Nov 11, 2015)

Lee Jay said:


> What is an EEVF?


Maybe a typo? One E too much? 

Maybe "Expandable" like the one @ Sony RX100 III 8)


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 11, 2015)

Bernard said:


> mrsfotografie said:
> 
> 
> > It's not always the 'best' technology that wins in the end, and Sony has lost before. Reference the Betamax vs VHS video tape format.
> ...


I remember the first time I saw one Betamax tape, and the quality seemed better, with the PAUSE functions and SLOW MOTION without shaky and drizzled that VHS had at that time.

The weakness of the Betamax was always the bad availability of new movies, and the highest price.

8mm video cameras were much better than the terrible VHS-C.

Betacam cameras were the best for more than a decade.

But I never bought any of those Sony products due to price and availability of media. I simply could not afford the "best", and bought the formats that were "good enough".


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## Bernard (Nov 11, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Betacam cameras were the best for more than a decade.



Betacam had very little to do with consumer Beta. The tapes were the same shape, but that was about it. Sony was always good with their broadcast stuff, but that division was kept very far away from the consumer products.

This state of affairs continues to this day. Sony makes some good, professional video cameras. They are tough, they have big batteries, and they are made to be used easily. Those product aren't made by the same people who design the A7-series, even if they (sometimes) share a lens mount.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Nov 11, 2015)

Bernard said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > Betacam cameras were the best for more than a decade.
> ...


Yes, Betacam was a completely different system of Betamax.
I mean that the philosophy of Sony in the 80's, was to make the best product, the most reliable, the most durable, the most predictable and the most expensive.
Today Sony philosophy seems to be to dominate an area (image sensors), and neglecting the usability, reliability, stability.


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## AvTvM (Nov 11, 2015)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Today Sony philosophy seems to be to dominate an area (image sensors), and neglecting the usability, reliability, stability.



I am no Sony customer - at last not yet. But i am extremely happy they brought their A7 series to market, proving that highly competent FF-sensored cameras can be made in a very compact form factor, with very decent performance and at about half the price Canon would undoubtedly charge, if they were able [sensor] and willing [corporate attitude] to produce such cameras - especially the Mk. II versions. 

I do not see any neglect on Sony's part in terms of features, usability, reliability or stability there. Rather the opposite. I don't find many reports about A7 "articulated LCDs breaking off" or such things. Also, Sony did not have to recall an entire series of their A7 flagships due to AF issues [unlike Canon 1D]. Also am not reading anything about oil splatter problems on Sony A7 series [as opposed to Nikon]. 

On the other hand one of my 3 Canon 600EX-RTs speedlites [not exactly a low-end Canon product] often refuses to recognize fully charged batteries - it just shows a low battery warning in the display, until I take batteries out, re-insert them, shake the unit and repeat the process 3 or 4 times. Quite erratic, highly unreliable and incredibly frustrating on location. 

Service? Canon CPS and Nikon NPS are off limits to 99% of their customers. At least were I live, entry criteria are ridiculously high. Even if I purchased a 1D-X I would not be "admitted" to CPS, not even into the lowest tier. So the service I get from Canon is inferior to that offered by Sony. Sony products are serviced by Sony subsidiary [wherever they may send them to]. Canon imaging products? There are exactly 2 external Canon service partners. in the entire country. One of them is a company handling mainly mobile-phone repairs and warranties [typpically claiming "there is water damage, it is out of warranty"]. I would definitely not send any Canon camera or lens to them for "service". 

As far as I am concerned, if Canon does not offer a compelling FF mirrorless system by the time Sony launches the A7 III, I'll switch. I've pretty much whittled down my Canon inventory already to just a 5D3 / 24-70 / 70-200 / 50 1.4 set and an EOS-M plus the 4 current EF-M lenses as my "golite"-kit. I'd love to replace those 2 gear sets with one set. As the core I want a universal, small, lite, kick-ass-performance FF-MILC [with short flange-back mount and EF lens adapter] plus a few native compact prime lenses and a few bigger native 2.8 zooms. One camera, one mount, one system. To go lite, when I want to go lite and go "bigger", when necessary.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 11, 2015)

Bernard said:


> Sony makes some good, professional video cameras. They are tough, they have big batteries, and they are made to be used easily.



I often seem them with Canon field lenses mounted.


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## ahsanford (Nov 11, 2015)

AvTvM said:


> AS afar as I am concerned, if Canon does not offer a compelling FF mirrorless system by the time Sony launches the A7 III, I'll switch.



Then you'll be switching. Probably by Thursday or so. Because... Sony.



AvTvM said:


> One camera, one mount, one system.



Agree 100%, but mine's still in the SLR space. Just the 5D3 for me right now. My money isn't on Canon innovating so much as it is on the _EF lens portfolio_ serving my needs. 

- A


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## Luds34 (Nov 13, 2015)

Zv said:


> I'm also quite content with the M line staying APS-C. As long as the sensor is top of the line with DPAF then we're good. A FF sensor'd M would likely mean a costlier, larger body and that would be a bit pointless for travel photography - an area I feel the 6D is already providing for. Why would we want something that's almost the same size and weight and presumably about the same price as the 6D? No advantage other than bragging rights. Keeping it small and compact suits the mirroless agenda better. I think all it needs is to be fully specced, high FPS and all that.



So am I. Everyone has different reasons for wanting different things, but I see mirrorless advantages as a smaller/lighter kit, especially if one sticks to primes and to a smaller sensor like APS-C. In fact I just ordered a Fuji X-E2 to dip my toes into something "more pro" then the EF-M system. My one complaint with Fuji is their lenses carry a "more pro" price tag as well.


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## mackguyver (Nov 13, 2015)

I've officially given up on the EOS-M and have my M, 22, 18-55, 11-22, and 90EX up on eBay as we speak. I think it has a lot of great potential but the lack of a viewfinder is just too much for me. I was traveling for work recently and missed a number of great shots primarily because I couldn't see the screen in the bright Florida sun. Beyond that, the pace of Canon's rollout has been painfully slow.

After selling my 5DIII (don't do much 2 camera work anymore and the 1D X made me forget all other EOSs), it became my back up / travel camera. That's when I began to realize the other annoyance was that it was small, but still too big to be truly pocketable. If I'm going to carry a camera around, I might as well have a SLR. As such, I grabbed a refurb SL1 kit + 24 STM and while it's a bit small to grip and the AF is lacking, I like it so much more. I'd kill for a 24mm equivalent prime, but I suppose the 10-18 will do, especially as this is just my back up / fun camera. 

Will I regret selling it and especially the 11-22 (killer lens!) if this pro body M comes out? Probably, but who knows if or when it will happen.


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## archiea (Nov 17, 2015)

Hey Guys, I'll bite!

a "pro level" ef-m camera?

OK, lets start with the EF-M3 form factor.

24mp but with 70D Dual Pixel AF

Built-in EVF from the new powershot G5 X

EOS menu system, instead of the current, more powershot menu system. 

Button layout to accommodate more EVF operation rather than LCD. For instance, allow for the Multifunction button a dual but smart function: When in manual focus, its becomes the zoom function to assist in manually focus. When it auto focus, it becomes the AF Lock function. This dual and automated function is something that Sony, fuji, leica etc do, This is an area that canon lags in.

Another possibility is to have the record button programmable as AF lock, however move it to where the thumb rest is. Currently the thumb rest interferes with access to the movie record button when viewing thru the EVF, causing a lesser grip on the camera.

Other automated features like if you touch the focus ring, while in AF+MF, magnify is activated immediately s well as focus peaking. 

Focus peaking adjusted so that with smaller apertures, it clips faster. This avoids focus peaking from not, well, "not peaking" with smaller aperture cameras. 

Lightroom control via USB. This functions as removed after the M1. We lost this professional feature. 

Flash sync Cord connection. This will allow for triggering any strobes.

Same body size, same LCD, same flash.

headset out

Video out via HDMI

$899-$999 pricetag for above pro features. 

What do you think?


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## jolyonralph (Nov 17, 2015)

archiea said:


> Same body size, same LCD, same flash.
> 
> What do you think?



For me the biggest problem with the M3 is that it is just too small and tries to cram too many buttons into too small a space. Especially compared to the original Eos M the M3 button layout is problematic with it being FAR too easy to accidentally trigger the menu button with your hand while holding it especially when holding it one-handed. On the EOS M that position was kept quite rightly free of buttons.

The Sony A6000 is just that little bit wider which allows for comfortable button placement - I'd much rather have a slightly wider camera with more sensible and ergonomic button placement.

and please please please, more than anything else, let's have a physical on/off toggle switch - again the A6000 manages this - so you can instantly feel whether the camera is actually off or just in standby mode. This is critical when you have to run around all day trying to conserve battery life.

I have both the M3 and the A6000 and like them both for different reasons. If Canon spent a little bit more time researching ergonomics and usability they have the potential to produce a world-class mirrorless APS-C camera.


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## scottgoh (Nov 17, 2015)

when will canon have its first full frame camera mirrorless like the sony? still waiting. hopefully, i can use all my canon lenses on it.


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