# Overpowering bright sun



## VitaliD (Oct 12, 2016)

Gentlemen,

I would be really interested to hear your thoughts/suggestions for the following scenario: summer, clear sky, midday - as bright as it gets outdoors. The subject is two people standing close together (wedding couple portraits). I can rely on an assistant who will carry the head and the battery. The light modifier is a softbox. I want the subject to be well lit and the sky/background to be underexposed 1 stop – Joe McNally style; basically I want to overpower the sun in this situation.

First question – what kind of power am I looking at? 600 Ws? 1000? 1200? I never used any external lights except speedlights so not sure.
And the second question – what should I look for? A flash with detachable battery like the Godox Wistro AD600? A head with a separate battery like Jinbei Discovery DC-1200 or Profoto B1? I will need high speed sync because I will probably be shooting at 1/4000 or 1/8000; HSS should work fine with Godox Wistro AD600 but Jinbei Discovery DC-1200 uses another technology called hypersync which I am not familiar with and which sounds a bit… untrustworthy judging from what I found in internet.

Any suggestions from first-hand experience will be greatly appreciated.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 12, 2016)

The issue is not just super powerful lights but as "escape" from the strong sun.

I live near the equator, so the sun from noon always hits the forehead, nose, and lips of people. In this case you need flash torches with over 1000W to compete with the sun. However, people will still be left with narrowed eyes due to too much light, and the best way out would be a large fine white fabric cover to soften the sunlight on people.

If you live far from the equator, place people back to the sun, and everything will be easier.


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## Pookie (Oct 12, 2016)

Like this... 1pm in the afternoon. The sun is just out of frame to the left. 400ws Elinchrom Quadra into a softbox. I own Profoto B1's, Elinchroms Ranger (1100ws), and Quadras (400ws). This can be done with 400ws. It's even easier if the sun is at your subjects back. I run a wedding/portrait business and do this often... like every day. I prefer the Quadra's if using an assistant... monoblocs with a battery on a pole for run-and-gun is a tricky proposition. Your VAL will complain about the weight after more than a few shots. Battery/controller in a pack slung over the shoulder is much easier to deal with than all of that plus modifier on a top heavy rig.

The "large white fabric" noted above is actually called a scrim in the industry... I prefer Matthews China white in 2 stop for full noon sun. It's better than most. The biggest issue you'll find with that is wind. Not good and can be really difficult to control in even the slightest wind. Plus you'll need a frame to go with it, and stands, and assistants (more than one). 

This was for the Berkeley Times and The Chronicle here in the bay area of California... the owner of the Berkeley Kite festival is in the center in yellow.


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## Besisika (Oct 12, 2016)

I like the reflection of the softbox on their glasses. Makes the session look more fun.

The key is, do you have an assistant or not?
If yes then all is good; he is going to carry it, hold it and change the power when needed.
If not, then you are "s..ed". Just like me.

The usefulness of your strobe depends on the distance where you put it from the subject. The more powerful it is the further you can put it. Same thing, the more powerful it is the bigger modifier you can use. But its power is associated with its size and weight and the pain to carry it around.
I am using a dinosaur; the Jinbei Discovery DC-1200. That is because I don't want any restriction what so ever.
When the wind is strong; it is steady. I can put any softbox and still runs at 1/2 or 1/4 power. Recycle is slow but at 1/4 power I can manage. But you have to pay the price: weight. Besides, it has gradient and you have to fix it in post. It is not TTL so you have to test few times before shooting. HSS works flawlessly.
Newer, better, HSS+TTL strobe came out. I will look into one of them next summer.

You can use non HSS strobe as well, you will need ND filter.


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## anthonyd (Oct 12, 2016)

I agree with Pookie that it can be done with 400ws, but I'd recommend higher. I did it with 360ws (using the Godox AD360), but I used a tiny umbrella as a modifier, and it was positioned about a foot from the subject. Also, it was about 4-5 pm, not noon. Here is my result:


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## Viggo (Oct 12, 2016)

Depends a lot on the modifier used. I use a B1 as well in HSS most of the time. I use the sun as a second source, edge light. 

I have a hardlight reflector which gives 4(!) stops more than my Beauty Dish.

I never use full power with the Magnum, but most of the time I'm at half or full power with the BD.

One B1 and sun on the side on both.


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## Pookie (Oct 12, 2016)

Viggo said:


> Depends a lot on the modifier used. I use a B1 as well in HSS most of the time. I use the sun as a second source, edge light.
> 
> I have a hardlight reflector which gives 4(!) stops more than my Beauty Dish.
> 
> ...



Very nice Viggo, the one thing I'd suggest though when balancing strobes with natural light like this is having your fill come from the same side as the sun but more head on as it will look much more natural. Strobe light coming from the opposite direction looks rather odd. I know this is sometimes not possible due to the setup though.


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## Viggo (Oct 12, 2016)

Thanks Pookie!

I didn't mean to create natural light in those images, or almost any of my shots. I think it looks flat with no edge or backlight 

I like punch, light and colors to really pop. And having my kids face the sun makes them very squinty, lol.

Thanks for the input though, I really appreciate a fresh look at my images and not just "nice shot" which I learn nothing from


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## VitaliD (Oct 13, 2016)

Viggo said:


> Depends a lot on the modifier used. I use a B1 as well in HSS most of the time. I use the sun as a second source, edge light.
> 
> I have a hardlight reflector which gives 4(!) stops more than my Beauty Dish.
> 
> I never use full power with the Magnum, but most of the time I'm at half or full power with the BD.


Thank you Viggo. Photos of your daughter is exactly the look I am after. So if I understood you correctly: B1, which is 500 Ws, is enough for the task. Is it with or without HSS? Is it with hardlight reflector, beauty dish or sofbox? I am just trying to understand what kind of power I will need with both HSS (minus 1-2 stops to power?) and softbox (minus 1 stop to power?).


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## VitaliD (Oct 13, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> The issue is not just super powerful lights but as "escape" from the strong sun.
> 
> I live near the equator, so the sun from noon always hits the forehead, nose, and lips of people. In this case you need flash torches with over 1000W to compete with the sun. However, people will still be left with narrowed eyes due to too much light, and the best way out would be a large fine white fabric cover to soften the sunlight on people.
> 
> If you live far from the equator, place people back to the sun, and everything will be easier.



Thanks ajfotofilmagem. The scenario I am talking about is a wedding, I only have one assistant who carries the light, so scrim is impossible/impractical in this situation. But I live in England, so placing people facing away from the sun is not a problem and it's what I normally do with my speedlights when I shoot in less bright sun conditions.


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## VitaliD (Oct 13, 2016)

Pookie said:


> monoblocs with a battery on a pole for run-and-gun is a tricky proposition. Your VAL will complain about the weight after more than a few shots. Battery/controller in a pack slung over the shoulder is much easier to deal with than all of that plus modifier on a top heavy rig.



Thanks Pookie, I came to the same conclusion after looking at a monoblock with a battery in a shop. My assistant is my wife, and she definitely isn't keen on carrying a 3kg light with a softbox on a pole. Light head with a separate battery in a backpack sounds like a much better option.


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## Besisika (Oct 13, 2016)

VitaliD said:


> Pookie said:
> 
> 
> > monoblocs with a battery on a pole for run-and-gun is a tricky proposition. Your VAL will complain about the weight after more than a few shots. Battery/controller in a pack slung over the shoulder is much easier to deal with than all of that plus modifier on a top heavy rig.
> ...


+1
And take into consideration the effect of wind. Having a monoblock with a softbox is a big risk, not only of damaging the gear but the subject and ground as well. On top of it, some pack comes with multiple head, which you might need from time to time.


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## VitaliD (Oct 13, 2016)

Besisika said:


> The usefulness of your strobe depends on the distance where you put it from the subject. The more powerful it is the further you can put it. Same thing, the more powerful it is the bigger modifier you can use. But its power is associated with its size and weight and the pain to carry it around.



Thanks Besisika. The distance is not a problem, I always try to position my assistant as close as possible to the subject (to soften the light). But I almost always use a softbox, so that's minus 1 stop to power.



Besisika said:


> I am using a dinosaur; the Jinbei Discovery DC-1200.



Jinbei Discovery DC-1200 is actually one of the options I am considering, and looks like the preferable option so far. I would be extremely interested to hear your opinion about it. Lack of TTL is not a problem for me, although I heard a TTL version is in the works - that would be even better. But my biggest concern is their sync technology. It is not high speed sync, it's another technology called hypersync. It's based on another principle (exactly right timing of one flash as opposed to series of smaller flashes for HSS), and it sounds a bit troublesome to me from what I read so far. Looks like it might be difficult to configure, or that it might give unevenly lit image. What's your thoughts on this?



Besisika said:


> You can use non HSS strobe as well, you will need ND filter.



I was thinking about this actually. I will need at least 6 stops filter to go below my camera's sync speed - that might make it difficult for the camera to focus and will make the viewfinder quite dark for me as well, so sounds like the last resort if sync doesn't work well.


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## VitaliD (Oct 13, 2016)

anthonyd said:


> I agree with Pookie that it can be done with 400ws, but I'd recommend higher. I did it with 360ws (using the Godox AD360), but I used a tiny umbrella as a modifier, and it was positioned about a foot from the subject. Also, it was about 4-5 pm, not noon. Here is my result:



Thanks anthonyd, your picture showed me clearly the bottom limit of the power I will need. The subject is a little dimmer that I would prefer, the background is a little lighter then I am aiming for, and your modifier/distance gives more light on the subject then mine will. And your time of the day is not the brightest time. So it appears I will need north of 400Ws, probably 600 as the bare minimum, and preferably 1000-1200. Which confirms my expectations.


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## Viggo (Oct 13, 2016)

VitaliD said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > Depends a lot on the modifier used. I use a B1 as well in HSS most of the time. I use the sun as a second source, edge light.
> ...



If you can get close enough, which you should, the BD works beautiful with the B1, very resistant to winds, and it's not that often I am at max power 10.0, but most of the time 8.5-9.5. This is HSS and often the combo; 100 iso, f1.4 1/8000s.

It also works with a 3' Octa with double diffusers, but I sometimes need to remove the inner baffle to have enough power in the snow for example. I have stripbox 1x4' which is the same as the Octa. I have grids for them, but outdoors in the sun grids steal too much power to be useful.


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## VitaliD (Oct 13, 2016)

Viggo said:


> the BD works beautiful with the B1, very resistant to winds



Sounds good, but I am shooting couples. How well a beauty dish works with more than one person in your experience?



Viggo said:


> It also works with a 3' Octa with double diffusers, but I sometimes need to remove the inner baffle to have enough power in the snow for example. I have stripbox 1x4' which is the same as the Octa.



You are basically saying that a B1 with softbox and HSS is usually just enough for the conditions, I think. That's great, that clearly answers my question. Thank you.


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## Viggo (Oct 13, 2016)

VitaliD said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > the BD works beautiful with the B1, very resistant to winds
> ...



I'll be honest and say I haven't tried any shots with more than two kids , I believe that was with stripbox and that worked great. I see no reason a bride and groom will be very hard with a B1 and perhaps reflector fill. And don't dismiss that Magnum reflector as an option, my god it's killer! And it gives one full stop of light more than the standard reflector 8)

I also forgot to mention I have a frosted dome on my B1, think that needs +0.8 stops more than the standard glass plate to give the same output. But it fills the Modifiers much better/nicer, and you get more control when zooming the light.


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## Pookie (Oct 13, 2016)

VitaliD said:


> Viggo said:
> 
> 
> > the BD works beautiful with the B1, very resistant to winds
> ...



I use 4 and 5 foot octas or 22" socked and/or grided BD Mola Demi or recently bought a Kacey dish as it was a little less weight being fiberglass composite. For the most part they are similar. The throw of a 22" BD can cover up to 5-6 people pretty easily. Use a grid if you want more of a tighter beam. The biggest reason I use the BD's when on site is wind. The octas can be cumbersome in any wind. The weight savings is also nice but not huge it's more about the battle putting up with wind and wrestling the mod into position that is easier with a BD. Also I think the BD is much nicer when doing headshots over the octas which can produce too soft a light sometimes... BD are a little crisper int he shadow transitions. 

This is a Mola Demi with Profoto B1... stranger portraits while waiting for a model to show up.


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## Viggo (Oct 13, 2016)

Very nice shots!

On the other side of the B1, this is done indoors, everything done and shot in less than one minute. TTL as initial shot, bumped it up 0.5 stops in Manual. Took two shots, it's very near the lowest power and also in the BD with sync speed. It so flexible and nice to work with. I practice speed and doing fast, better. Because my daughter is, well, as predictable and slow as a rubber ball shot out of a canon into an elevator.


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## Besisika (Oct 13, 2016)

VitaliD said:


> Jinbei Discovery DC-1200 is actually one of the options I am considering, and looks like the preferable option so far. I would be extremely interested to hear your opinion about it. Lack of TTL is not a problem for me, although I heard a TTL version is in the works - that would be even better. But my biggest concern is their sync technology. It is not high speed sync, it's another technology called hypersync. It's based on another principle (exactly right timing of one flash as opposed to series of smaller flashes for HSS), and it sounds a bit troublesome to me from what I read so far. Looks like it might be difficult to configure, or that it might give unevenly lit image. What's your thoughts on this?


If you can wait for a TTL version then wait, or go with something else.
The gradient (caused by hypersync) is not a big of a deal for me as when you shoot outdoor the contribution of ambient light is quite high as opposed to in studio (see photo below - shot under open shade at 1/8th power). The gradient is hardly seen, and if it bothers you then just add a gradient of opposite direction in post and then brush it out for the background.
I use youngnuo's trigger and transceivers and never had issue. The PC sync was loose (Youngnuo's receiver) so I glued it and never gave me any issue anymore.
In my opinion, the biggest drawback is its weight; it is double of everything else I have tried. Be mindful of that - I can't stress it enough.
Another drawback is that you can't use it indoor or at night at 1.4; it is toooooo powerful. I have to carry a speedlite because of that.
I prefer this over my einstein outdoor because of the HSS and I don't like much ND filter. Indoor and overcast days I prefer the einstein due to its size and recycle time.
I would not go under 600Ws because I am a filter freak. I am not an exposure freak and that's why I prefer TTL but when it comes to filter, I sometimes even eat up a full stop of light when combining two filters. Besides, I shoot dark skins a lot so I use double, sometime triple diffusion. I don't like either putting my softbox against my subject's face so I prefer huge modifier somewhere behind my back (at most at my level) - I prefer myself to be what the subject sees first.
For that: I have to pay the price of carrying that dinosaur.



Lady in Red-0004 by Besisika, on Flickr


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## IglooEater (Oct 14, 2016)

Gorgeous shot Viggo! Really hoping to have a daughter someday- My two sons are cute, but a daughter is special somehow.


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## timmy_650 (Oct 14, 2016)

Pookie said:


> VitaliD said:
> 
> 
> > Viggo said:
> ...



Hey that is one of my favorite places. The Lane.


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## Viggo (Oct 14, 2016)

IglooEater said:


> Gorgeous shot Viggo! Really hoping to have a daughter someday- My two sons are cute, but a daughter is special somehow.



Thanks! I have a son as well, and they're both amazing  so lucky to have one of each !


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