# Two new EOS R bodies coming in the first half of 2020 [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 13, 2020)

> A lot more information came in after the weekend’s posting about potential Canon EOS R Mark II specifications.
> A known source has told us that the specifications posted did not match up with the next 2 EOS R cameras that are coming in the first half of 2020.
> While the source said they couldn’t say too much at this time specification wise, it was mentioned that Canon will be “stepping it up a gear” when it comes to specifications for the next two EOS R bodies.
> More to come…



Continue reading...


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## addola (Jan 13, 2020)

This is CR3? Interesting! I wonder in what way were the specification different? I hope it's not lack of IBIS because Canon users are being left behind in that department, and Canon does need to "step it up".


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## Groundhog (Jan 13, 2020)

Not matching the CR1-specs sounds like one of those 2 will be the rumored high-MP-body, but for the other one ...


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## Trey T (Jan 13, 2020)

If the OP says “known source”, then it’s a real person(s). 

If the OP says “source(s)”, then it’s made up to trap a source to talk- clever!!


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 13, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Canon will be “stepping it up a gear”


Yay, huge profits through innovation!! This is how the gears work:


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## Adelino (Jan 13, 2020)

Hmmm different than the rumor...


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 13, 2020)

I think the mot important part is that the gear is coming in the first half of 2020. I expected them by the end of the year.


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## IcyBergs (Jan 13, 2020)

R takes over in the next 5 months!

R versions of the 5D5 and 5DSR2....what else could they be?


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## amorse (Jan 13, 2020)

Well now I don't know what to think!

I would think something has to be coming near the top of the lineup if not a 5D V - we're getting close to the conclusion of the 4 year renewal cycle on the 5D IV, so I would bet on a spiritual successor at least.


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## gouldopfl (Jan 13, 2020)

addola said:


> This is CR3? Interesting! I wonder in what way were the specification different? I hope it's not lack of IBIS because Canon users are being left behind in that department, and Canon does need to "step it up".


I know so many want IBIS but all of my lenses have 4-5 stops of stabilization and I use a top quality tripod and monopod.


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

The prior CR1 was not right [CR3]


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

But, if this new source is to be believed, the 2 EOS R cameras could be:

EOS R2 and the high res 5DS2-like model
EOS R2 and the speed 1DX3-like model
EOS R2 and a megabudget (sub $1k) model that lacks an EVF (you use it like an M6 Mark II)
Two high res bodies like 5DS and 5DSR: one with and one without AA filter
EOS R2 in two different colors 
- A


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## AccipiterQ (Jan 13, 2020)

please please please please please a7RIV killer.....


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 13, 2020)

gouldopfl said:


> I know so many want IBIS but all of my lenses have 4-5 stops of stabilization and I use a top quality tripod and monopod.


Every fast prime except the 85mm f1.4 IS doesn't have IS, and tripods are not practical for a lot of situations. Stop with this nonsense that IBS is unnecessary. Every feature that can help with taking better photos is helpful.


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## Lukas Haupt (Jan 13, 2020)

As I was told from Canon marketing guy, he accidentelly told me, that we will soon se low light monster and hig mpx body. So it seems he knew, what is going on. I m really curious!


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## Joules (Jan 13, 2020)

If the message here was just that the previous specs are wrong, why word it so weirdly with the next two bodies?

If the next two are specced aggressively, it probably rules out the cheaper-than-the-RP R and the crop-R. The high res R should be a serious camera from what we see in the M6 II and 1DX III LiveView functionality.

But what other high end bodies are we expecting? I thought an R II / 5D mirrorless was expected for much later in the year. And releasing a mirrorless 1D so soon after the 1DX III would surely upset folks. What's left? A A7s equivalent?


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## mccasi (Jan 13, 2020)

addola said:


> This is CR3? Interesting! I wonder in what way were the specification different? I hope it's not lack of IBIS because Canon users are being left behind in that department, and Canon does need to "step it up".


I was just getting comfortable with the specs for the R2. MP and FPS could easily be off and I wouldn't have a problem ... but IBIS? that's a must at least on the high MP body, probably for most on the R2 as well.
Other stuff is pretty safe: digit X, card slots, better EVF, no crop 4k.
Finger's crossed we'll know more soon.


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## YuengLinger (Jan 13, 2020)

Things are in flux.

The great dSLR sell-off stampede swells. Hold onto your hats.

Hoping against hope CF cards will be in the mix. Sigh...I have so many, two still unopened!


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 13, 2020)

Joules said:


> If the message here was just that the previous specs are wrong, why word it so weirdly with the next two bodies?



At least some of the specs from CR1 can be right. Maybe not in one body at the same time... And not necessarily in Canon bodies...


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## slclick (Jan 13, 2020)

one ~30 MP, one ~50 MP


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## Nelu (Jan 13, 2020)

Joules said:


> And releasing a mirrorless 1D so soon after the 1DX III would surely upset folks.


I don't get it; why would it? Nobody is forcing you to buy the 1DX III and then get pissed of the mirrorless version is out.
It's your choice, live with it!


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## ykn123 (Jan 13, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Every fast prime except the 85mm f1.4 IS doesn't have IS, and tripods are not practical for a lot of situations. Stop with this nonsense that IBS is unnecessary. Every feature that can help with taking better photos is helpful.


he said HIS lenses have IS and HE is using a tripod - so IBIS is not so important for HIM. Depending on your photography subjects it's important to some and not important to others. Pleae stop with this nonsense of saying IBIS is a requirement. It's helpful for some and not required for others.


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 13, 2020)

Joules said:


> But what other high end bodies are we expecting? I thought an R II / 5D mirrorless was expected for much later in the year. And releasing a mirrorless 1D so soon after the 1DX III would surely upset folks. What's left? A A7s equivalent?



Personally I'm after the high-res 70-80Mp monster. I feel 30Mps of my 5DIV aren't enough. 80Mp will drastically improve my photography, all my photos will be 2.66 times better. It'll be worth every penny.

But most importantly I expect Canon to fix the banding visible in the shadows at long exposures and improve on DR. If the camera will be on par with A7RIV - I'm definitely buying it. Well if my wife approves...


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## Joules (Jan 13, 2020)

Nelu said:


> I don't get it; why would it?


They did a development announcement for the 1DX III, so if it was coming soon, I believe they would have done it for that as well.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 13, 2020)

ykn123 said:


> he said HIS lenses have IS and HE is using a tripod - so IBIS is not so important for HIM. Depending on your photography subjects it's important to some and not important to others. Pleae stop with this nonsense of saying IBIS is a requirement. It's helpful for some and not required for others.


Well hey technically autofocus and burst shooting isn't required for everyone, so we might as well just not consider those requirements for new cameras being made today either.


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## JuanMa (Jan 13, 2020)

IcyBergs said:


> R takes over in the next 5 months!
> 
> R versions of the 5D5 and 5DSR2....what else could they be?



R body with APS-C sensor?


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## Nelu (Jan 13, 2020)

Joules said:


> They did a development announcement for the 1DX III, so if it was coming soon, I believe they would have done it for that as well.


For sure, this will not be a 1D equivalent mirrorless body. It will most likely be the high resolution body (which the 1DX III is NOT) and probably the R2 or the mirrorless 5D Mark IV.
I think the rumor is premature because as you said, there was no development announcement.


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## YuengLinger (Jan 13, 2020)

Nelu said:


> For sure, this will not be a 1D equivalent mirrorless body. It will most likely be the high resolution body (which the 1DX III is NOT) and probably the R2 or the mirrorless 5D Mark IV.
> I think the rumor is premature because as you said, there was no development announcement.


Unless, of course, the release of the EOS R _ was_ the development announcement for a "more pro type" body to follow?


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## Quarkcharmed (Jan 13, 2020)

Nelu said:


> I think the rumor is premature because as you said, there was no development announcement.



They actually rarely do development announcements. 1DXIII development announcement was an exception as far as I understand. They normally do release announcements right away.


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## Daner (Jan 13, 2020)

I would like to see a couple of development models of the R Mk. II, at least one of which is optimized for sunny, high-temperature environments in a manner similar to Canon's telephoto lenses.

I'm sure that having a matching white finish would be an advantage. If that model happens to be the second in the development series, they could even call it... EOS R2-D2 (That could be the camera that I am looking for!)


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## jedy (Jan 13, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> please please please please please a7RIV killer.....


Bless!


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## Groundhog (Jan 13, 2020)

Joules said:


> What's left? A A7s equivalent?



Since Sony stopped making A7S after the Mk. II there could be a market for a low-light beast ... but I'm not convinced Canon has the sensor needed for it


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## addola (Jan 13, 2020)

mccasi said:


> I was just getting comfortable with the specs for the R2. MP and FPS could easily be off and I wouldn't have a problem ... but IBIS? that's a must at least on the high MP body, probably for most on the R2 as well.
> Other stuff is pretty safe: digit X, card slots, better EVF, no crop 4k.
> Finger's crossed we'll know more soon.



IBIS is a must because all other competitors offer IBIS. A recent Fujifilm rumor has it that the X-T4 will have IBIS. Also, Canon offer stellar RF lenses that do not have IS like the 28-70/2, 50/1.2 & 85/1.2, so IBIS would be greatly appreciated there. 

I hope that Canon's IBIS will be on par with that of Panasonic & Olympus.


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## Stig Nygaard (Jan 13, 2020)

My guess.
1) The long rumored extremely high-res R model
2) An R model demonstrating where Canon is right now technically in mirrorless. It will include a lot of features found in the 1DXIII. It might have 24-25 megapixels, which potentially could give it very convincing no-crop 4K video quality (And very good low light performance).


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## Architect1776 (Jan 13, 2020)

gouldopfl said:


> I know so many want IBIS but all of my lenses have 4-5 stops of stabilization and I use a top quality tripod and monopod.



My interest in it is to use top quality older lenses that do not have it including old L FD lenses.


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## Kjsheldo (Jan 13, 2020)

The high-res model will be great for many people to have (or for bragging rights), but the camera Canon needs is a true pro body in the 30-36 megapixel range. Somewhere in between a 5D IV and 1DX Mark III. Perhaps what the 5DV will be or could be. Needs to add IBIS, no crop 4k up to 60fps (no need for 6k or raw) in 10-bit 422 with low rolling shutter, with 1DX III joystick and way nicer ergonomics than the EOS R (more dials, less menu hunting).


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## Architect1776 (Jan 13, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Things are in flux.
> 
> The great dSLR sell-off stampede swells. Hold onto your hats.
> 
> Hoping against hope CF cards will be in the mix. Sigh...I have so many, two still unopened!



My CF cards will still work in my 7D and 10D even after these cameras are introduced.
Those cameras are not going away any time soon.


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## Chuckmet (Jan 13, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Personally I'm after the high-res 70-80Mp monster. I feel 30Mps of my 5DIV aren't enough. 80Mp will drastically improve my photography, all my photos will be 2.66 times better. It'll be worth every penny.
> 
> But most importantly I expect Canon to fix the banding visible in the shadows at long exposures and improve on DR. If the camera will be on par with A7RIV - I'm definitely buying it. Well if my wife approves...


I understand sarcasm, many don't. Get ready


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## Jim Corbett (Jan 13, 2020)

1DxMK3-like EOS R full rame is out of the question for this year. The possibilities for that are close to Canon re branding itself to Nonac.
Which leaves two choices:
1. High resolution - 50 mpx, keeping the naming tradition of 5DS and familiarity;
2. EOS R Sport/WL body but with an APS-C sensor.
The tiers closest to due upgrade are 5DS and 7D.
Remember how they released 7DmkII along with the 100-400 mk2? I put my money on 7DmkIII MILC + the new 70-400 zoom. Most people are going to be hyped and GASed after the 1Dxmk3, but unable to afford it, it makes senses to me if Canon tries to fill that vacuum with a wallet-friendly spicy cropper. So, in a way, the previous 32mp. rumor makes sense (if it's crop).


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## Foxeslink (Jan 13, 2020)

make an eos Rv, (Video) and we good


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## Chaitanya (Jan 13, 2020)

I will be waiting for either Aps-c sensor sized camera with RF mount or mirrorless equivalent of 5D series.


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## i_SH (Jan 13, 2020)

These will be the RS and RX cameras.
Or RS and R2 ( or R-camera with an APS-C sensor).


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> please please please please please a7RIV killer.....




Many folks: We want one ring camera to rule them all. Maximum bestnest ftw. Eliminate buyers' remorse with a cadillac of a super camera that will robustly address my needs for many years to come.

Canon: Um, [tapping on microphone, clearing throat] How about no. 

Canon: Why sell the definitive best camera for $3500 when we can sell two really good cameras side by side for $3k apiece? We have data that says we will make more money selling two different cameras (i.e. some of you buying both over time) than we can squeeze out of you for one super camera at one point in time.


Forget what you want, do you think Canon will go high detail + high-ish speed (say 10 fps) in the same body? 

We may not see an A7R4 killer coming. I see a killer high res model coming and I see a 5D5-like spec all-arounder coming. But I could be wrong.

- A


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## Madtoffel (Jan 13, 2020)

If Canon is planning an EOS R mark ii but the specs didn't match the rumor we can start guessing which parts are right/wrong. So here are my guesses:
-32Mp Sensor: maybe not exactly but around that
-IBIS only in the high res model
-12fps only without af, 8-10 with tracking af
-only SD cards on the R, CFexpress only on the high res model

I should have known that the first rumor was to good to be true, it was more like a whish list.


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

Nelu said:


> I don't get it; why would it? Nobody is forcing you to buy the 1DX III and then get pissed of the mirrorless version is out.
> It's your choice, live with it!




+1. You're presuming the 1DX3 would be outperformed by a high fps mirrorless rig, or more desirable somehow. But Canon might make it small like the A9, the battery life would be wretched for folks leaning on the shutter all day and balance with big lenses could be dreadful.

But yes, if Canon offered identical spec cameras other than one having a mirror and the other not having one, I would want to hear about both cameras on the same day. We're in a period of migration to mirrorless, and for some, the purchase represents a bit of a plunge. Adaptors are great and our EF glass will still work, sure, but a large body investment might be the only major pickup some folks make for a few years -- so they'd like to know what else might be coming in the same feature-set.

- A


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## YuengLinger (Jan 13, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> My CF cards will still work in my 7D and 10D even after these cameras are introduced.
> Those cameras are not going away any time soon.



Mine did. 5DIV on the way to buyer.


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## Tom W (Jan 13, 2020)

My take, which is worth all of 2 cents or less...

New 5R and 5Rs, with 32 and 75 Mpx respectively, representing the 5-series in the RF mount. Might also be a 5D5, with the same sensor as the 5R, but in DSLR format (much like the 90D/M6 II share a sensor).

Specs are going to be interesting, but they will be a 5-level camera (I consider the R to be between the 5 and 6D series in terms of features).


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

ykn123 said:


> he said HIS lenses have IS and HE is using a tripod - so IBIS is not so important for HIM. Depending on your photography subjects it's important to some and not important to others. Pleae stop with this nonsense of saying IBIS is a requirement. It's helpful for some and not required for others.




IBIS is not a requirement, but it's quickly becoming an expectation. You may not personally need it, but everyone in the FF mirrorless marketplace other than Canon (and what, Leica M?) offers it now, and I'd wager a massive percentage of this forums expects it to happen even if they personally don't need it.

I'd liken it to prior decisions to offer Eye AF, focus peaking, tilty-flippy, etc.: you may not need it, but for market parity Canon probably needs to offer it.

- A


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## Trankilstef (Jan 13, 2020)

Kjsheldo said:


> the camera Canon needs is a true pro body in the 30-36 megapixel range. Somewhere in between a 5D IV and 1DX Mark III. Perhaps what the 5DV will be or could be. Needs to add IBIS, no crop 4k up to 60fps (no need for 6k or raw) in 10-bit 422 with low rolling shutter, with 1DX III joystick and way nicer ergonomics than the EOS R (more dials, less menu hunting).


Exactly the kind of camera I'm waiting for from Canon. I'd buy it instantly !


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> My interest in it is to use top quality older lenses that do not have it including old L FD lenses.




+1. IBIS (nice to have) + better manual focus assist (a must) would have me collecting older primes and possibly trying out nice new primes from third parties whose AF I don't trust.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

Kjsheldo said:


> The high-res model will be great for many people to have (or for bragging rights), but the camera Canon needs is a true pro body in the 30-36 megapixel range. Somewhere in between a 5D IV and 1DX Mark III. Perhaps what the 5DV will be or could be. Needs to add IBIS, no crop 4k up to 60fps (no need for 6k or raw) in 10-bit 422 with low rolling shutter, with 1DX III joystick and way nicer ergonomics than the EOS R (more dials, less menu hunting).




I think the answer there is a simple one. Make the 5D5 specs (when mirror is up) identical to the EOS R2. Done. Easy.

Possibly announce those two side by side on the same day. They might come out on the market at slightly different times, but Canon would put both cards on the table so those mulling over their first RF mount body can make their buying decision fully aware of what similar money will deliver if they stayed with EF.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

Jim Corbett said:


> The tiers closest to due upgrade are 5DS and 7D.




But if you ask Canon if we're getting a 7D3, I believe they just start talking about the 90D as if that's what you were asking about.

_Us: Is a 7D3 ever happening?_​​_Canon: [weird screeching noise]_​​_Us: Are you literally trying to make a cricket noise?_​​_Canon: We've made our point. We're done here._​
- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

Madtoffel said:


> If Canon is planning an EOS R mark ii but the specs didn't match the rumor we can start guessing which parts are right/wrong. So here are my guesses:
> -32Mp Sensor: maybe not exactly but around that
> -IBIS only in the high res model
> -12fps only without af, 8-10 with tracking af
> ...




If Canon wants to build a good-better-best platform like Sony and Nikon, in which there is a clear single top dog model with best res / speed / features, withholding IBIS to only that price point would be the total villain move.

I'm not sure Canon will be that foolish. Potential super-spec 60 x 10 camera possibility = low, but possible. But IBIS only on the $3500 camera while it's everywhere at Sony and Nikon? I just don't see that happening.

I think IBIS will happen and it will happen across the price point spectrum in FF over time.

- A


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jan 13, 2020)

Madtoffel said:


> If Canon is planning an EOS R mark ii but the specs didn't match the rumor we can start guessing which parts are right/wrong. So here are my guesses:
> -32Mp Sensor: maybe not exactly but around that
> -IBIS only in the high res model
> -12fps only without af, 8-10 with tracking af
> ...



Why would the high res model be the higher end one in your mind?

Surely the high fps one gets CFExpress as the high MP one can make do with SD? I mean even some higher end medium format cameras have SD as they are fast enough for 1fpm cameras.

Personally I would like to see a 'testing the waters' R body with the 1DX Mark III sensor and a bigger R sized body with optional grip. This with a RF 200-400 or even the suggested 70-400 would be the first of the R sports/wildlife line until mirrorless builds up the big white catalog for a Eos R1.


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## slclick (Jan 13, 2020)

I'm sure IBIS will come with an off switch. Unlike the constant comments about features some think shouldn't be there since they won't want them. Hell, just like me with video...jump right past th


Kjsheldo said:


> The high-res model will be great for many people to have (or for bragging rights), but the camera Canon needs is a true pro body in the 30-36 megapixel range. Somewhere in between a 5D IV and 1DX Mark III. Perhaps what the 5DV will be or could be. Needs to add IBIS, no crop 4k up to 60fps (no need for 6k or raw) in 10-bit 422 with low rolling shutter, with 1DX III joystick and way nicer ergonomics than the EOS R (more dials, less menu hunting).


And hopefully take great stills in the right hands.


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## slclick (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> +1. IBIS (nice to have) + better manual focus assist (a must) would have me collecting older primes and possibly trying out nice new primes from third parties whose AF I don't trust.
> 
> - A


What would you like to see? Zebra? Better color outlining?


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

slclick said:


> What would you like to see? Zebra? Better color outlining?




Some slick jump from peaking to 10x without having to pull my eye from the VF would be great for large aperture primes.

If EOS R already has this, forgive me. I didn't dig too deeply there with my CPS loaner last year.

- A


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## djack41 (Jan 13, 2020)

ykn123 said:


> he said HIS lenses have IS and HE is using a tripod - so IBIS is not so important for HIM. Depending on your photography subjects it's important to some and not important to others. Pleae stop with this nonsense of saying IBIS is a requirement. It's helpful for some and not required for others.


It is a requirement......for Canon to remain competitive. Expensive, fast glass, without stabilization, is a tough sell.


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## hmatthes (Jan 13, 2020)

I love the idea of two new Rs simultaneously: A professional R2 (32 meg 5R?) and a hi-res (70 meg 5Rs) version at a higher price.
BOTH should have IBIS, thumb nubbin for AF point selection, GPS, twin SD cards (OK, CFexpress in 5Rs), EF adapter in the box, and a rear desk exactly like the 5DIV - it really works well and we love it.
just my two cents -- I don't need more than 24 meg but love my R's 30 meg -- I've not upgraded my Leica SL because I don't need 47 meg but do need GPS.


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## hmatthes (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Some slick jump from peaking to 10x without having to pull my eye from the VF would be great for large aperture primes.
> 
> If EOS R already has this, forgive me. I didn't dig too deeply there with my CPS loaner last year.
> 
> - A


Pressing in on the focus nubbin brings up 6x or 10x zoom with my Leica SL. Genius! I shoot manual focus fairly often and this is essential...


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## Daner (Jan 13, 2020)

I spent a couple of years with a 7DII, then a few months with the 5DIV followed by a few more with the R. Based on that experience, I hope that at least one of the upcoming R models has an improved AF system for sports and birds (perhaps using some of the deep learning technology developed for the 1DMIII). I would also like to have the new Smart Controller built into the AF-On button for fast control of the AF Point selection instead of the joystick. An increase to a reliable 10 fps to go along with the improved AF would be very welcome, and if having an essentially unlimited buffer at the higher frame rate requires a switch from SD to CFExpress (1 card or 2), so be it. I would rather have more dynamic range than more resolution. I would also like to be able to save 10-bit HEIF files. IBIS would be nice, but I have never tried it, so I don't know how much I would like to have it. Finally, I like the flippy screen, but would also like good weather sealing. Maybe not so reasonable to want both, but a guy can dream, can't he?


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## Canon1966 (Jan 13, 2020)

AccipiterQ said:


> please please please please please a7RIV killer.....


Yes PLEASE!!!


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## Deleted member 381342 (Jan 13, 2020)

hmatthes said:


> I love the idea of two new Rs simultaneously: A professional R2 (32 meg 5R?) and a hi-res (70 meg 5Rs) version at a higher price.
> BOTH should have IBIS, thumb nubbin for AF point selection, GPS, twin SD cards (OK, CFexpress in 5Rs), EF adapter in the box, and a rear desk exactly like the 5DIV - it really works well and we love it.
> just my two cents -- I don't need more than 24 meg but love my R's 30 meg -- I've not upgraded my Leica SL because I don't need 47 meg but do need GPS.


Why does the high MP slow camera need the hyper fast card while the fast camera gets hobbled with SD?


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## Canon1966 (Jan 13, 2020)

I think 32mp is rather conservative compared to the Sony 7R3 and 4; Nikon Z7. Just my opinion.


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## amorse (Jan 13, 2020)

I found it odd that they'd release the RII so close to the first one - it seems out of character for Canon, but I guess anything can happen right now since they're moving into new territory with the RF mount. 

Maybe a lot of the feedback on the R was put into the high resolution body design (i.e. updated touch bar, 2 card slots etc), and maybe Canon was concerned that the reception to the high-resolution body (if released alone) would be tempered because it isn't the "do it all" body that people seem to be clamouring for. I really expect that high resolution body to be a specialist tool - low fps, maybe even poor low-light performance, but very high res, probably ruggedized and very very good image quality. The RII could be a do it all and a proper 5D replacement, with the updates to the R that people seem to be after. 

Releasing both at the same time may allow Canon to change the dialogue in the internet media while still maintaining the "each body built for a task" business model rather than the good, better, best segmentation model used by other manufacturers. Otherwise people seem focused on complaining about the lack of a feature in a camera designed for something else. Time will tell I guess!


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## Jasonmc89 (Jan 13, 2020)

If Canon removed the mirror and prism from the new 1DX3 and gave it an RF mount that’d be a pretty incredible mirrorless camera, right? 


Surely that’s not too difficult to do.


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## Groundhog (Jan 13, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> If Canon removed the mirror and prism from the new 1DX3 and gave it an RF mount that’d be a pretty incredible mirrorless camera, right?
> 
> 
> Surely that’s not too difficult to do.



Without the mirror the additional AF-sensor (with it's own processor) wouldn't work so I doubt the RX(?) would be simply a 1DX III with the mirror/OVF ripped out.
Also the 1DX III was just announced and they surely want to sell those and the sports-mirrorless RX(?) in maybe 2 years as an upgrade for the 1DX III.


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## LensFungus (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> The prior CR1 was not right [CR3]


Tomorrow:
The prior CR3 was not right, CR1 was [CR5]


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## DarkPhalanx (Jan 13, 2020)

Joules said:


> And releasing a mirrorless 1D so soon after the 1DX III would surely upset folks.



That statement makes absolutely no sense. These are 2 totally different target groups of camera users.


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## slclick (Jan 13, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> Tomorrow:
> The prior CR3 was not right, CR1 was [CR5]


Corrections to rumors are higher confidence rumors than lower confidence rumors, but correct me if you have no confidence.

That's it I'm selling my gear and switching to Toyo - View 4 x 5..


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## Kit. (Jan 13, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> If Canon removed the mirror and prism from the new 1DX3 and gave it an RF mount that’d be a pretty incredible mirrorless camera, right?


You mean, without the viewfinder at all?


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## Nelu (Jan 13, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Mine did. 5DIV on the way to buyer.


OK, that's a big surprise. What did you get instead because we all know you don't like the EVF's ?


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

Joules said:


> And releasing a mirrorless 1D so soon after the 1DX III would surely upset folks.





DarkPhalanx said:


> That statement makes absolutely no sense. These are 2 totally different target groups of camera users.




Not necessarily. Depends on what the mirrorless 1-series is designed for.

If they are going for high fps + smaller form factor (like an A9), I think that might be more for news reportage/journos than it would be for sports/wildlifers. In that case, you might be talking about the 1DX3 and 1 series mirrorless going to different users.

But if it's a dead knockoff of a 1DX3 without a mirror (spec and form factor wise), I think it would aimed at / priced at the exact same photographers as 1DX3. Sideline sports and wildlife folks would use either body in their high fps pursuits.

Unless you think a 1-series mirrorless means high res. I don't think anyone is expecting that. Canon firmly chucked the high-res specialist camera into the 5-series price point 5 years ago (presumably to sell more of them at a lower price point). 

- A


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## mpb001 (Jan 13, 2020)

I think that if Canon can engineer a way to implement IBIS with lens IS to up stabilization to say 7 stops, and say 6 stops with non IS lenses it will be worth it to have it. True, IBIS isn’t really needed with IS lenses but I think that if they can add that extra stop or so my both IBIS and lens IS working in tandem, this can be important in getting the shot when needed,


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## Ozarker (Jan 13, 2020)

I'm gonna need a cigarette after these announcements.


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## LensFungus (Jan 13, 2020)

amorse said:


> I found it odd that they'd release the RII so close to the first one - it seems out of character for Canon, but I guess anything can happen right now since they're moving into new territory with the RF mount.


Yes, that's true... but on the other hand Canon's move is logical. 

The Sony rumor page reports that Sony will very likely announce the Sony A7 Mark IV in the first half of 2020. Whether or not people here like the Sony A7 Mark III everybody has to admit that this camera was a huge financial success for Sony. They also gained a massive boost in reputation. It was something like Canon's 5D Mark II, Mark III or the 6D Mark I. While Canon is still the leader of overall camera sales, they are not the leader of mirrorless full frame sales and Sony can continue to brag about it. With the Sony A7 Mark IV on the horizon, Canon could gamble and hope that Sony won't be able to repeat their A7 Mark III success, but this time Canon has chosen to directly attack them with the EOS R Mark II. 

The internet will obviously talk about for months who's the winner specs- and saleswise but the actual winner is the customer. Both companies will push each other to release the better camera.


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## Optics Patent (Jan 13, 2020)

Madtoffel said:


> If Canon is planning an EOS R mark ii but the specs didn't match the rumor we can start guessing which parts are right/wrong. So here are my guesses:
> -32Mp Sensor: maybe not exactly but around that
> -IBIS only in the high res model
> -12fps only without af, 8-10 with tracking af
> ...



Holy cow! They're going to introduce a Nikon Z6!


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## Optics Patent (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> +1. IBIS (nice to have) + better manual focus assist (a must) would have me collecting older primes and possibly trying out nice new primes from third parties whose AF I don't trust.



My patent pending manual focus assist (peaking) invention gives the best of both worlds. Strong signal from the loose setting, and precision of the tight setting.


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## Architect1776 (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> +1. IBIS (nice to have) + better manual focus assist (a must) would have me collecting older primes and possibly trying out nice new primes from third parties whose AF I don't trust.
> 
> - A



Those features open a whole world of lenses going back nearly 100 years that would provide amazing results not available with modern lenses. For example my FL 58mm f1.2 lens would be great to use on a digital camera and IBIS and focus confirmation would be a real plus. Just waiting to see what canon does, and no, I do NOT want a Sony, want a camera not a gadget.


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## Juangrande (Jan 13, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Well hey technically autofocus and burst shooting isn't required for everyone, so we might as well just not consider those requirements for new cameras being made today either.


Well maybe. I’m a portrait photographer and I’ve never taken any of my cameras off single shot mode. I could manually focus for my work (before digital I shot MF and all my lenses were manual focus and it was no problem) but I’ll admit AF is way better, especially eye detect full screen, it’s the only reason I’m interested about mirrorless. I’ve never had a use for burst mode. I mean to your point I’m glad it’s there if ever need it for some reason, but 5-7 FPS would be more than enough for me if I did ever use it. I’ve also never shot any video ever. I’m often on a tripod but interested in IBIS although not necessary. But yeah if it’s not effecting the cost I’ll gladly take all the newest innovations but not having them if I don’t use them certainly isn’t a deal breaker.


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## DarkPhalanx (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Not necessarily. Depends on what the mirrorless 1-series is designed for.
> 
> If they are going for high fps + smaller form factor (like an A9), I think that might be more for news reportage/journos than it would be for sports/wildlifers. In that case, you might be talking about the 1DX3 and 1 series mirrorless going to different users.
> 
> ...





First off, they've never stated they were releasing a mirrorless version of a 1D this year, so Joules was incorrect right out of the gates.....lol. We're talking about the EOS R ii, which is nowhere close to the specs of the 1DX mark iii.

The mirrorless "high end" Canon has been said to be roughly 2 years away from being announced.

And as I truly believe, these are 2 totally different targeted user groups.


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## Go Wild (Jan 13, 2020)

Yes!!! Bring them on Canon!!! I cant wait!!! I am sure that the new R bodies will be Top gems so i am really excited about it. Also I was waiting this since i bought the a7r3 back in 2017 so a biigg expectation is on! 

As far as we can expect it will be the High res camera. We know Canon will want to send to the market something similar or better than the A7r4, yet I would be extremely happy with 40mp. If it comes with more...well, let it come!  

If we can also expect another camera, then we have 3 chances:

- Like rumoured, an EOS R II with improved specs placing between entry level and High res body.
- A 1dxmkIII similar camera for sports with less mp (20mp) and less video specs (no raw and maybe crop 4k). Yes i know it doesn´t make too much sense because Canon just launched the 1dx mkIII, buuuut Canon DID announce that they will not make more EF lenses. So...it also doesn´t make too much sense, does it? 
- A video related mirrorless like Sony A7S line. Why not?? 

We´ll see soon i believe! I cant wait to have again all line up Canon equipment! I do enjoy Sony and I do like the image quality...But...I love Canon for a lot of reasons. It seems like using Sony is like to be cheating wife with the lover.... But wife give´s you so much more things than the lover..... 

Go Canon, GOOO!!!!


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## Nelu (Jan 13, 2020)

Go Wild said:


> Yes!!! Bring them on Canon!!! I cant wait!!! I am sure that the new R bodies will be Top gems so i am really excited about it. Also I was waiting this since i bought the a7r3 back in 2017 so a biigg expectation is on!
> 
> As far as we can expect it will be the High res camera. We know Canon will want to send to the market something similar or better than the A7r4, yet I would be extremely happy with 40mp. If it comes with more...well, let it come!
> 
> ...


So what are you telling us? The Canon "wife" has a larger body but no stabilization and the Sony "lover" is lighter but harder to handle?


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## jeliel (Jan 13, 2020)

Perhaps something looking like the Canon beginning in ML : a RP MKII and a R MKII ... ?


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## mclaren777 (Jan 13, 2020)

If these mirrorless cameras come out early in the year, that should free up the fall/winter for an announcement of the 5D5.

It usually comes out pretty close to the release of the new 1DX, so I would we aren't waiting more than 12 months.


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> The Sony rumor page reports that Sony will very likely announce the Sony A7 Mark IV in the first half of 2020. Whether or not people here like the Sony A7 Mark III everybody has to admit that this camera was a huge financial success for Sony.




I would contend it was the first time someone really landed a glove on Canon strictly from the strength of a spec list.

Sony always had these Ferrari like specs, but the various A7/A9 cameras were easy to dismiss:

Few lenses
AF was a mess
Build quality issues, poor sealing
Limited third party ecosystem of stuff you could bolt on / interface with
Ergonomics as war crimes
Specs bristling with asterisks of nasty fine print, especially on compression of RAW files and true working fps
But they systematically attacked each limitation and worked it down to a point where the A7 III -- a comically loaded spec per dollar offering -- was worth trying. There was a mechanical shutter and uncompressed RAW at top fps. The lens portfolio is stronger now. The AF does not suck like it used to. (The grip is still a war crime, but maybe that's just me.)

So the question is, does Canon 'stoop to their level' and get into a spec-per-dollar war, or do they continue to lean on brand, argue 'a better-thought-through less is more' sales pitch, and innovate in the more nuanced (and potentially useful) areas that don't pop on a spec sheet: BR optics, adaptors as rear filtering opportunties, motorized auto positioning speedlite head, clever ergonomic integration of using all those DPAF points, etc.

I'm guessing it will be a bit of both.

- A


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## Optics Patent (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Some slick jump from peaking to 10x without having to pull my eye from the VF would be great for large aperture primes.
> If EOS R already has this, forgive me. I didn't dig too deeply there with my CPS loaner last year.



The RP cycles peaking/5x/10x with the info button when lens is in MF and focus is not eye/face.


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## reef58 (Jan 13, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> First off, they've never stated they were releasing a mirrorless version of a 1D this year, so Joules was incorrect right out of the gates.....lol. We're talking about the EOS R ii, which is nowhere close to the specs of the 1DX mark iii.
> 
> The mirrorless "high end" *Canon has been said to be roughly 2 years awa*y from being announced.
> 
> And as I truly believe, these are 2 totally different targeted user groups.



So now we are relying on rumors about rumors from a thirdhand source to fill in our timeline.


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## Joules (Jan 13, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> First off, they've never stated they were releasing a mirrorless version of a 1D this year, so Joules was incorrect right out of the gates.....lol. We're talking about the EOS R ii, which is nowhere close to the specs of the 1DX mark iii.
> [...]
> And as I truly believe, these are 2 totally different targeted user groups.


I'm not sure what your issue was with my initial statement. I got the impression from this rumor that we are getting a third R camera, on top of the high resolution one expected to be announced next month and the R successor. And I can't see that being a 1D X series equivalent mirrorless, because they just hyped up the 1DX III and got people to make plans and preorders for that body.


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## gregster (Jan 13, 2020)

I can't see there being any chance of a 1DX level R this year. Their goals will be to sell/promote the 1Dx3, and only launch a 1DR once those sales slow and they have the tech ready. The smart business decision is to space out releases, allowing them to sell high end bodies twice to pros.

Releasing both too close to each other would also erode confidence and likely cause confusion in the marketplace around Canon's direction. For the time being they still need people to have confidence in EF.


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## Optics Patent (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> But if it's a dead knockoff of a 1DX3 without a mirror (spec and form factor wise), I think it would aimed at / priced at the exact same photographers as 1DX3. Sideline sports and wildlife folks would use either body in their high fps pursuits.



Sideline pros need a good reason to make a change. I'm a mirrorless enthusiast, but they can't afford to take a risk unless there is some compelling benefit (like better glass, which there isn't yet for the sidelines). "Why change?" is easy for me to answer but harder for them.


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## Jasonmc89 (Jan 13, 2020)

Kit. said:


> You mean, without the viewfinder at all?


With an EVF of course!


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> First off, they've never stated they were releasing a mirrorless version of a 1D this year, so Joules was incorrect right out of the gates.....lol. We're talking about the EOS R ii, which is nowhere close to the specs of the 1DX mark iii.
> 
> The mirrorless "high end" Canon has been said to be roughly 2 years away from being announced.
> 
> And as I truly believe, these are 2 totally different targeted user groups.




You didn't connect those dots for me the first time, sorry. I agree: EOS R2 will not be aimed at 1-series users.

But the thread is about *2* new EOS R bodies of an (as of this time) unknown market segment, so anything's possible. The prior poster indeed appeared to be speculating about 1-series mirrorless.

So I ask everyone (yourself included DP): if and when a 1-series mirrorless does arrive, will it be aimed at the 1DX-level camp or will it... be something else? 

- A


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## 6degrees (Jan 13, 2020)

Make it Sony a7riv equivalent. Otherwise still behind.


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## DarkPhalanx (Jan 13, 2020)

reef58 said:


> So now we are relying on rumors about rumors from a thirdhand source to fill in our timeline.



It may be tough to face, but these are all rumors, correct? Can you state, factually, that Canon said they were releasing a mirrorless 1DX variant this year?


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

gregster said:


> Releasing both too close to each other would also erode confidence and likely cause confusion in the marketplace around Canon's direction. For the time being they still need people to have confidence in EF.




Sure, but confidence in EF is first and foremost maintained with new EF glass. And:









Canon Done Making EF Lenses Unless Photographers Demand More


Canon is going all-in on mirrorless. The company has revealed that it has no plans to create any new EF lenses for DSLRs... unless photographers demand




petapixel.com





I realize that Canon and EF is not remotely where Sony was with A mount when the A7 took off. But slowly, folks will migrate to RF to get access to the latest lenses even if all the non-EVF sweet mirrorless tech is cooked into LiveView on shiny new EF SLRs.

Here, I admit the 1-series is in a bit of a different stratosphere in that RF needs native superwhites to have that pull for the sports/wildlife guys. That camp will migrate to RF the slowest for that reason, one would think -- if your primary daily driver glass is EF and you have all the latest mirrorless features in liveview, you are less inclined to get an RF body.

- A


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## drob (Jan 13, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Every fast prime except the 85mm f1.4 IS doesn't have IS, and tripods are not practical for a lot of situations. Stop with this nonsense that IBS is unnecessary. Every feature that can help with taking better photos is helpful.


IBIS is great but not necessary. We’ve been shooting without it for years with DSLR. Stop being lazy and use proper technique. But being 2020 it’s pretty much standard in every other brand and is a reason for Canon shooters to complain and switch to other systems...Canon needs to step up and bring this feature to market.


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## DarkPhalanx (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> You didn't connect those dots for me the first time, sorry. I agree: EOS R2 will not be aimed at 1-series users.
> 
> But the thread is about *2* new EOS R bodies of an (as of this time) unknown market segment, so anything's possible. The prior poster indeed appeared to be speculating about 1-series mirrorless.
> 
> ...




My take on this, yes....when the 1 series mirrorless version does get announced, it will most definitely be aimed at the sports/wildlife group that is currently purchasing the 1DX line of cameras.


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## drob (Jan 13, 2020)

Canon needs to bring some F1.8 primes and The f4 trinity so folks can actually afford to purchase lenses.


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## Joules (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> So I ask everyone (yourself included DP): if and when a 1-series mirrorless does arrive, will it be aimed at the 1DX-level camp or will it... be something else?
> 
> - A


On paper at least it already looks like it is the mirror that is holding the camera back. I've read a few times that people don't feel like going from 14 to 16 FPS is a worthy upgrade considering the cost of the camera. But it actually does 20 FPS with full AF, an AF that covers basically the entire frame and can lock on to eyes as well as faces and heads... This AF is just not accessible through the OVF.

How well this works out in practice is a different matter of course, but reading the white papaper I felt like Canon wanted to stress that LiveView is an option worth checking out on the 1DX III.

For 1D X series users that are willing to compromise on battery life and maybe some eye fatigue when using the EVF for longer periods, I think Canon could very much make a product for them. It would be weird to me if they keep their flagship tech exclusively on the EF mount for ever. There should be some good improvements for the current 1DX target group when the viewfinder tech gets good enough for Canon to eventually release a mirrorless equivalent.


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## gregster (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I realize that Canon and EF is not remotely where Sony was with A mount when the A7 took off. But slowly, folks will migrate to RF to get access to the latest lenses even if all the non-EVF sweet mirrorless tech is cooked into LiveView on shiny new EF SLRs.
> - A



I think we're on the same page - my take is that Canon needs its core 1D users to continue to have confidence in EF for the next little while, otherwise they'll view the 1DX3 with suspicion, thinking mirrorless/RF will obsolete it soon. Less so for the rest of the market.


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## Kit. (Jan 13, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> With an EVF of course!


Then the resolution, DR, refresh rate, and power consumption of the EVF matter, as well as eye strain after its prolonged use.


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Sideline pros need a good reason to make a change. I'm a mirrorless enthusiast, but they can't afford to take a risk unless there is some compelling benefit (like better glass, which there isn't yet for the sidelines). "Why change?" is easy for me to answer but harder for them.




Fair point. I'd argue Canon needs to sell 1DX-level users on the possibilities of what great AF _all over the frame_ could do for their compositions. These folks have been relatively resolution limited (so 're-composing/re-framing via crop' is harder) and all their AF points are fairly central, so unique perspectives/compositions using the entire frame with working AF may be a nice driver.

Or Canon just tells them that they'll get +4 fps over their OVF setup, eliminate mirror slap and not need to leave their viewfinder. 

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

drob said:


> IBIS is great but not necessary. We’ve been shooting without it for years with DSLR. Stop being lazy and use proper technique. But being 2020 it’s pretty much standard in every other brand and is a reason for Canon shooters to complain and switch to other systems...Canon needs to step up and bring this feature to market.




Proper technique doesn't let you shoot a handheld waterfall or a very dark scene, but IS (in all its forms) helps you do that.

We can call it lazyness (I do hear you, I don't mean to sound flippant), but one simply can't take a tripod everywhere or add light to every scene. IS helps in many, many ways.

- A


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

gregster said:


> my take is that Canon needs its core 1D users to continue to have confidence in EF for the next little while




If I'm a working pro and see:

A flurry of modern spot-on f/1.2 primes come out on RF while my EF 85 f/1.2L II continues to focus like a turtle on downers and my go-to EF 50L continues to be an erratic mess...
A staple pro tool comes out in the EF 70-200 f/2.8L III IS that turns out to be the same optical formula with just a new paint job and (I think) a front element coating all while the RF 70-200 gets utterly transformed...
...I'd start to lose faith that Canon was taking EF seriously as a top priority.

There are still many many brilliant things EF has that RF will not have for a long time, but that will slowly change.

- A


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## Danglin52 (Jan 13, 2020)

mpb001 said:


> I think that if Canon can engineer a way to implement IBIS with lens IS to up stabilization to say 7 stops, and say 6 stops with non IS lenses it will be worth it to have it. True, IBIS isn’t really needed with IS lenses but I think that if they can add that extra stop or so my both IBIS and lens IS working in tandem, this can be important in getting the shot when needed,



At some point, stabilization doesn't matter if you are trying to stop the motion of your subject. It does't do any good good to shoot 1/30 sec if you subject requires 1/640 - 1/1000 th to stop motion. In addition, on subjects impacted by wind you will still enough shutter speed to freeze motion.


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## Nelu (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Proper technique doesn't let you shoot a handheld waterfall or a very dark scene, but IS (in all its forms) help you do that.
> 
> We can call it lazyness (I do hear you, I don't mean to sound flippant), but one simply can't take a tripod everywhere or add light to every scene. IS helps in many, many ways.
> 
> - A


Not just that; IBIS not only stabilizes the final product (the photo you take) but it also stabilizes what you see in the EVF, which further helps focusing.


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## gregster (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> If I'm a working pro and see:
> 
> A flurry of modern spot-on f/1.2 primes come out on RF while my EF 85 f/1.2L II continues to focus like a turtle on downers and my go-to EF 50L continues to be an erratic mess...
> A staple pro tool comes out in the EF 70-200 f/2.8L III IS that turns out to be the same optical formula with just a new paint job and (I think) a front element coating all while the RF 70-200 gets utterly transformed...
> ...



I agree. My interpretation of the current strategy is that it's worse for Canon to have users sitting on the sidelines and not buying, when the company is hoping to sell an EF mount 1Dx. That's precisely where I find myself, not wanting to invest in EF and hoping the R bodies ramp up in performance soon. Hence the need for 1D users to be swayed by a combination of what the 1DX3 has to offer and EF itself, in order to reach their sales targets.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 13, 2020)

drob said:


> IBIS is great but not necessary. We’ve been shooting without it for years with DSLR. Stop being lazy and use proper technique.


I can't physically hold my hand steady below a certain shutter speed. What on earth about that is "lazy"??? Are you saying it's lazy because I don't carry a tripod/monopod with me everywhere I go? It's pretty ridiculous to expect someone to have a tripod or monopod with them at all times. And again, sometimes it's just simply not practical or allowed. We don't all venture out on some kind of lofty virtuous mission to take photographs every time we shoot, complete with every conceivable piece of equipment possible. Some of us take shots in situations where a tripod/monopod just wouldn't work.

I shot this a couple years ago on the east side of Detroit at around 2am. I was on my way home and I noticed some fog was starting to roll in, which is rare for Detroit. So I spent a little time driving around the east side and taking photos. It would have been nice if I could have captured some more shadow detail, but I was already at f1.2 and the slowest shutter speed I could use hand held... You know, without *IBIS*.

Beyond the fact that I did not expect to have these weather conditions on this night, this is not an area that you want to spend a lot of time hanging around, especially at this time of night. And you most definitely do not want to attract attention to yourself and make it very apparent you have valuable camera gear on you by setting up a tripod. You will get robbed. So please just spare me this crap about "stop being lazy" when I ask for IBIS. Just because the way you take photos might warrant having a tripod with you at all times doesn't mean the way everyone else does also.


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## Romain (Jan 13, 2020)

We'll have an amazing battle between Sony and Canon in the mirrorless world in this 2020 decade... Very exciting for all of us, photography and videography are reaching an unbelievable level... CHAMPAGNE!...


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## Go Wild (Jan 13, 2020)

Nelu said:


> So what are you telling us? The Canon "wife" has a larger body but no stabilization and the Sony "lover" is lighter but harder to handle?



 Well, Wives may not be soo exciting but when they want they make the"job done" even better than "lovers"!! haahahahah!

Well, of course this is a joke. The thing is...i am a wildlife photographer/videographer and also a photojournalist. This is what I do for living. Make no mistakes, Sony cameras can give you huge results, sensors are quite good! However, i do notice difference from sensors like 5dmkIII or 5dmkIV, from the 1dx mkII I never noticed such a huge difference in image quality. There is not. It can be different of course...42mp vs 20mp but not noticeable at least in a way we can see it "side by side". Canon bodies and ergonomics are good.Period. Canon menus and camera consistency are good. Period. Canon is reliable i had never missed a shot and never got colors messed up with the 1dxmkII, however I did have problems with Sony. I never had problems with cold with the 1dx mkII ( andI shoot sometimes in antarctica and high Arctic) i did with Sony. In video, i just love Canon 1dx mkII 4k image, and also love Sony image but Sony requires a lot more color editing than Canon. I now shoot video with the Sony Fs5 mkII and the atomos inferno so i dont film with hybrid bodies, but the new 1dxmkIII made me think i can go back to hybrids. Lets see what comes with this new ones in video.

In resume....A "lover" can be exciting....but at the end of the day, a Wife gives you stability, reliability, thrust, confidence in all situations. Andd.....if you ask gently....they can do "wild things" also!!  


Ohhh.....about stabilization: It´s very handy for video, mostly! But nothing that IS dont give you! In most of the situations, I do prefer IS, but that´s just me, i don´t record video handheld, most of the times is in tripod with long lenses.

You can see here a teaser of the incoming documentary in Antarctica: This shots were made with Canon 1dx mkII and Sony A7r3, shot s with the FS5 are not in this teaser:


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## reef58 (Jan 13, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> It may be tough to face, but these are all rumors, correct? Can you state, factually, that Canon said they were releasing a mirrorless 1DX variant this year?



Nope didn't say that I do not know if or when they will release a 1dx mirrorless variant. I will quote a portion of the OP

"A known source has told us that the *specifications posted* did not match up with the next 2 EOS R cameras that are coming in the first half of 2020.
While the source said they couldn’t say too much at this time specification wise, it was mentioned that Canon will be “*stepping it up a gear*”

That leads me to believe the 32mp 12fps IBIS camera rumored is incorrect. Based on this CR3 source the specs will be better. I take "stepping it up a gear" meaning going above normal or in the context of the OP of the prior rumor better than those specs. I would not bet money on it as this is a rumor site. You would think if the original rumor was within 10% or so of the specs nothing would have been mentioned. That leads me to speculate the specs may be closer to 40mp and 10 fps or so. I don't know.


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## reef58 (Jan 13, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> It may be tough to face, but these are all rumors, correct? Can you state, factually, that Canon said they were releasing a mirrorless 1DX variant this year?



Nope didn't say that I do not know if or when they will release a 1dx mirrorless variant. 

I will quote a portion of the OP.


DarkPhalanx said:


> My take on this, yes....when the 1 series mirrorless version does get announced, it will most definitely be aimed at the sports/*wildlife *group that is currently purchasing the 1DX line of cameras.



I get to the woods before sunrise and usually stay for at least 3 hours. Much of that time is spent looking through the viewfinder. Unless they can do something to greatly improve that experience with an EVF I am going to pass. I am sure a solution will be worked out but how long I do not know.


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## amorse (Jan 13, 2020)

drob said:


> IBIS is great but not necessary. We’ve been shooting without it for years with DSLR. Stop being lazy and use proper technique. But being 2020 it’s pretty much standard in every other brand and is a reason for Canon shooters to complain and switch to other systems...Canon needs to step up and bring this feature to market.


I don't think it's always laziness - there are lots of places where it will help. I don't typically think of myself as someone that really *needs* IBIS, but I will say that it would have made a difference for me when I did a photo flight earlier this year. Even at 1/2000 of a second and f/2.8 (24-70 f/2.8L ii), and pretty high ISO to make that possible, I still found several images were unusable due to camera shake from vibration in the plane. Obviously there's not a lot I can do about that other than pump the shutter speed higher or make sure I'm using stabilization in one form or another. IBIS would have been a treat in that scenario.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

gregster said:


> I agree. My interpretation of the current strategy is that it's worse for Canon to have users sitting on the sidelines and not buying, when the company is hoping to sell an EF mount 1Dx. That's precisely where I find myself, not wanting to invest in EF and hoping the R bodies ramp up in performance soon. Hence the need for 1D users to be swayed by a combination of what the 1DX3 has to offer and EF itself, in order to reach their sales targets.




There eventually will come a tipping point that what mirrorless has to offer is worth at least a partial migration in the form of a second body. 

For 1-series users, I'm assuming it's all about that glass -- there will eventually be enough great/unique/modern RF lenses that folks leaning on their 1DX3 shutters take notice and get in on RF (EVF, battery life, warts and all).

The question for 1DX3 users is: are RF superwhites a must for leaving 1DX-land? Or will just better versions of the f/2.8 zoom trinity or a staple standard prime be enough for you?

- A


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Things are in flux.
> 
> The great dSLR sell-off stampede swells. Hold onto your hats.
> 
> Hoping against hope CF cards will be in the mix. Sigh...I have so many, two still unopened!



Yeah. I've sold 6 and still have another dozen to go on eBay. Let's just say the demand for them is pretty soft now. If one of these R cameras has >7 fps with autofocus/tracking and >30 megapixels, I'll likely be buying back into Canon, but I did not expect these cards to be used. Either SD or something newer than CF. If I'm wrong, well, it's pretty cheap to get reliable used ones now.


----------



## DarkPhalanx (Jan 13, 2020)

reef58 said:


> Nope didn't say that I do not know if or when they will release a 1dx mirrorless variant. I will quote a portion of the OP
> 
> "A known source has told us that the *specifications posted* did not match up with the next 2 EOS R cameras that are coming in the first half of 2020.
> While the source said they couldn’t say too much at this time specification wise, it was mentioned that Canon will be “*stepping it up a gear*”
> ...




I have no idea which part of the specs you assume (32mp/12fps/IBIS) is incorrect (in whole or in part). It may be that the new camera will receive (2) CF express card slots and not just one. It could mean that it indeed would have video RAW, as opposed to the original release that said it wouldn't. It's all speculative. 

Speculating that it's be a 40mp sensor and 10 fps doesn't add up for me personally. Not if the EOS RS verson is to be around 60-75mp. The 32 would still give it a little bit better low light success as compared to the 40, IMHO.


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 13, 2020)

High MP body? EOS RII? Nah

I'm actually hoping one of the new bodies is a genuine replacement for the 7D mk II. Come on Canon, lets see a pro sports body with the MILC magic! Gimme that 7D replacement so many people have been begging for and watch it sell out fast!


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Beyond the fact that I did not expect to have these weather conditions on this night, this is not an area that you want to spend a lot of time hanging around, especially at this time of night. And you most definitely do not want to attract attention to yourself and make it very apparent you have valuable camera gear on you by setting up a tripod. You will get robbed.




+1. I lived in LA for years, and it was by and large quite safe. But hanging out at night in the dark corner of a hillside or empty park to capture freeway light trails or some cityscape I would not dare attempt without a friend with me. 

So I often made do without the tripod. I'm not saying IS is a tripod in a pinch, but there is no denying it can help.

- A


----------



## Aaron D (Jan 13, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> A lot more information...


What? Two cameras! Stepping it up! You holding out on us?


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## Tremotino (Jan 13, 2020)

Architect1776 said:


> My interest in it is to use top quality older lenses that do not have it including old L FD lenses.


What would be for you the top quality fd lenses? I have no clue since I have been born after the fd era.


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## RayValdez360 (Jan 13, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Things are in flux.
> 
> The great dSLR sell-off stampede swells. Hold onto your hats.
> 
> Hoping against hope CF cards will be in the mix. Sigh...I have so many, two still unopened!


cf cards are extinct.


----------



## dwarven (Jan 13, 2020)

Probably a sports/birb camera with high FPS, 24 mp, dual cfexpress, lower res EVF but fast. $3-4K? Not quite as good as the 1DX, but a proof of concept showing what they can do with mirrorless. Would make sense with the Olympics coming.


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## Mikehit (Jan 13, 2020)

hmatthes said:


> Pressing in on the focus nubbin brings up 6x or 10x zoom with my Leica SL. Genius! I shoot manual focus fairly often and this is essential...



In the Panasonic range, if you have it on MF, then as soon as you twitch the focus ring, a magnified inset appears in the EVF showing an area covering the focus point. I find that more useful than zebras, and it is programmable (magnification and whether the inset appears at all). No need to touch a different button.


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## webzkey (Jan 13, 2020)

Well, now I really don't know what to think. I literally just posted on the forum about whether I should upgrade now from my Canon 80D to the EOS R or wait for new iterations.

I'm sure we will find out more information soon enough.


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## Ozarker (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> +1. I lived in LA for years, and it was by and large quite safe. But hanging out at night in the dark corner of a hillside or empty park to capture freeway light trails or some cityscape I would not dare attempt without a friend with me.
> 
> So I often made do without the tripod. I'm not saying IS is a tripod in a pinch, but there is no denying it can help.
> 
> - A


Growing up in the Los Angeles Metroplex I can roundly say that Compton, Hawaiian Gardens, Skid Row, East LA et all, (which I frequented often), and west 7th street in San Bernardino were not safe to hang around at all with anything of value on display. Hard to run away and conceal with a tripod in hand. Las Vegas isn't much better.

That said, Detroit is a whole other world and I have visited there too.


----------



## Nelu (Jan 13, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> In the Panasonic range, if you have it on MF, then as soon as you twitch the focus ring, a magnified inset appears in the EVF showing an area covering the focus point. I find that more useful than zebras, and it is programmable (magnification and whether the inset appears at all). No need to touch a different button.


The EOS-R has that as well.


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## Kit. (Jan 13, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> High MP body? EOS RII? Nah
> 
> I'm actually hoping one of the new bodies is a genuine replacement for the 7D mk II. Come on Canon, lets see a pro sports body with the MILC magic! Gimme that 7D replacement so many people have been begging for and watch it sell out fast!


There is nothing wrong with Canon giving me a camera that is both a high MP body (in FF) and a 7D mk II replacement (in APS-C crop mode). I will be willing to pay for it.

YMMV, of course.


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## twoheadedboy (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> If Canon wants to build a good-better-best platform like Sony and Nikon, in which there is a clear single top dog model with best res / speed / features, withholding IBIS to only that price point would be the total villain move.
> 
> I'm not sure Canon will be that foolish. Potential super-spec 60 x 10 camera possibility = low, but possible. But IBIS only on the $3500 camera while it's everywhere at Sony and Nikon? I just don't see that happening.
> 
> ...



Good-better-best is probably right. The current issue in RF:

1. "Good" (RP) is too close in performance/price to "Better" (R), and the former has a feature the latter lacks - focus-stacking. The R2/5D MKIV entry is needed to fix this.
2. "Best" does not exist on RF. There is nothing better body-wise than an R, which is slightly lesser than a 5D MK IV. There is no 5DS killer, even more crucial than on EF with a host of mega-premium glass exclusive to the RF mount.

So I think for #1, the 5D MKIV replacement IS the "R2". Where the R was the same or slightly worse than the 5D MKIV in most respects, the R2 will be somewhat better, particularly in IBIS, video format, card slot format/buffer, slightly faster, and marketing-level gains in MP using new sensor and DIGIC tech (probably 1x DIGIC X). There's no need to have an "R2" AND a "5D MK IV replacement", there is not enough segmentation there.

For #2, you're going to see a significant increase in MP (60 - 80 is my guess), IBIS, 5 - 7 fps (probably better than 5DS but not as good as 5D MK IV which would suggest 6.0 FPS), etc.

Then you'll probably see the RF 1DX around August/September 2021, 5-6 months prior to the 2022 Winter Olympics and 18 months after the EF MK III, maybe followed by an RP2 right before the Winter Olympics (with that and the World Cup coming that year).


----------



## mpb001 (Jan 13, 2020)

Danglin52 said:


> At some point, stabilization doesn't matter if you are trying to stop the motion of your subject. It does't do any good good to shoot 1/30 sec if you subject requires 1/640 - 1/1000 th to stop motion. In addition, on subjects impacted by wind you will still enough shutter speed to freeze motion.


Its having options at our disposal that we never had before. I guess whats nice about lens IS is that it can be turned off


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## reef58 (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> There eventually will come a tipping point that what mirrorless has to offer is worth at least a partial migration in the form of a second body.
> 
> For 1-series users, I'm assuming it's all about that glass -- there will eventually be enough great/unique/modern RF lenses that folks leaning on their 1DX3 shutters take notice and get in on RF (EVF, battery life, warts and all).
> 
> ...



I don't own a 1dx3 yet, but I own a 1dx and have the mark 3 on order. I don't care about RF super tele lenses as it seems from all reports my 500 will adapt well as well as other lenses. I am not a technical guy, but from what I have read there is no advantage to an RF 500 or 600 lens over the EF other than it being a native mount. I don't know for sure.

For me to completely ditch a DSLR I will need an EVF which doesn't kill my eyes, and battery life. I fully plan to complement my 1d camera with a either the high MP R coming out, most likely, or sell my 5d4 for the R2. That being said I am not sure why we cannot have both? It seems some people are angered by the mere existence of DSLR's nowadays. I just don't see an evf ever being a replacement for an optical viewfinder for long bouts of wildlife photography.


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## reef58 (Jan 13, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> I have no idea which part of the specs you assume (32mp/12fps/IBIS) is incorrect (in whole or in part). It may be that the new camera will receive (2) CF express card slots and not just one. It could mean that it indeed would have video RAW, as opposed to the original release that said it wouldn't. It's all speculative.
> 
> Speculating that it's be a 40mp sensor and 10 fps doesn't add up for me personally. Not if the EOS RS verson is to be around 60-75mp. The 32 would still give it a little bit better low light success as compared to the 40, IMHO.



The new rumor (this post) stated the prior rumor the 30mp 12fps was wrong because Canon is stepping it up a gear. I don't know where the specs will land, but I read that to mean the specs will be better than what was reported (30mp 12fps). Maybe is is 32mp and 20fps or maybe it is 40mp and 10fps. If it were only the change of a card slot I doubt that would warrant a source correcting the entire post. I don't know merely giving an opinion.

I have no idea what adds up to you personally and how that relates to this thread. We may just have a language disconnect. Not trying to be rude.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 13, 2020)

Something like 90D mirrorless about US$1000?


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## Canon1966 (Jan 13, 2020)

I would love to see a Canon body put Sony in the dust. : )


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## Jasonmc89 (Jan 13, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Then the resolution, DR, refresh rate, and power consumption of the EVF matter, as well as eye strain after its prolonged use.


I don’t understand what you’re getting at.

The 1DX3’s performance in live view looks awesome. A mirrorless camera is pretty similar to a DSLR in live view mode.

An EOS R camera with the same specs as the 1DX3 in live view mode would be really good.


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## slclick (Jan 13, 2020)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Something like 90D mirrorless about US$1000?


While everyone is aiming high, it might just be lower than the RP. Possibly one entry FF with RF mount, recycled sensor and a few less tidbits than the RP and the other, a 5D styled all rounder. 30-40 MP, two mismatched cards, pretty good weather sealing, nice grip, moderate fps, an improved EVF over the R, expanded AF points, maybe taking a cue from the 1DX3 yet not a full magic AF trackball. I think it's a bit early for trickle down hardware.


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## slclick (Jan 13, 2020)

Canon1966 said:


> I would love to see a Canon body put Sony in the dust. : )


I would love to see more options for everyone!


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## Nelu (Jan 13, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> I don’t understand what you’re getting at.
> 
> The 1DX3’s performance in live view looks awesome. A mirrorless camera is pretty similar to a DSLR in live view mode.
> 
> An EOS R camera with the same specs as the 1DX3 in live view mode would be really good.


You weren't paying attention. He's talking about the EVF, not the live view on the back screen.
Using the EVF for a long period of time will strain your eyes, unlike the OVF.


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## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Something like 90D mirrorless about US$1000?




That camera kind of already exists:








Canon EOS 90D Compared to the Canon EOS M6 Mark II


Compare the detailed specifications of the Canon EOS 90D to the Canon EOS M6 Mark II




www.the-digital-picture.com





It just lacks an integral EVF and the ability to use RF lenses, but if you want to bang away on a 32 MP x 14 fps rig, it's already here.

- A


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## navastronia (Jan 13, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Growing up in the Los Angeles Metroplex I can roundly say that Compton, Hawaiian Gardens, Skid Row, East LA et all, (which I frequented often), and west 7th street in San Bernardino were not safe to hang around at all with anything of value on display. Hard to run away and conceal with a tripod in hand. Las Vegas isn't much better.
> 
> That said, Detroit is a whole other world and I have visited there too.



I lived in East LA for about 4 years and although my neighborhood was _far_ safer than rumor had it, I still wouldn't want to be hanging around alone with equipment that looked valuable.


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## Ozarker (Jan 13, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I lived in East LA for about 4 years and although my neighborhood was _far_ safer than rumor had it, I still wouldn't want to be hanging around alone with equipment that looked valuable.


I was so glad to move to Irvine.


----------



## Optics Patent (Jan 13, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> The question for 1DX3 users is: are RF superwhites a must for leaving 1DX-land?



I'm no pro, but I would assume that when Canon is ready to introduce a 1-level RF they will have had their engineering intern draw up the lengthened rear housing that is all the 400 IS III needs to be produced as a dedicated RF. (They'll also sell me the conversion service). One mechanical metal part with the exact same design except for an inch stretch in one section, plus maybe an inch longer flex circuits to reach the mount.


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## Kit. (Jan 13, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> I don’t understand what you’re getting at.
> 
> The 1DX3’s performance in live view looks awesome. A mirrorless camera is pretty similar to a DSLR in live view mode.
> 
> An EOS R camera with the same specs as the 1DX3 in live view mode would be really good.


Maybe, but who will buy it if it comes with the 1DX3 price and a mediocre EVF?


----------



## navastronia (Jan 13, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I was so glad to move to Irvine.



I'm looking for jobs so I can come back to LA right now (moved away briefly). Hoping to land in Hollywood, WeHo, Westwood . . .


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## brad-man (Jan 13, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Growing up in the Los Angeles Metroplex I can roundly say that Compton, Hawaiian Gardens, Skid Row, East LA et all, (which I frequented often), and west 7th street in San Bernardino were not safe to hang around at all with anything of value on display. Hard to run away and conceal with a tripod in hand. Las Vegas isn't much better.
> 
> That said, Detroit is a whole other world and I have visited there too.


Try going to an early-bird in Miami Beach. You'll need your tripod just to keep your place in line...


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 13, 2020)

Nelu said:


> OK, that's a big surprise. What did you get instead because we all know you don't like the EVF's ?



I sold my 5DIII and got an R. I liked it so much that when the holiday discounts had it below $1500 USD, I bought another, and now the 5DIV is gone too.

There are things about this EVF I don't like, but I get better results for portraits than I did with any other camera. I do still have an 80D, and I've kept a few EF lenses that balance and perform well on the R.

This is a leap for me. But I have to look at what is producing the best results, and which lenses I rarely use. (In my case, the wonderful 100-400mm II has also been sold.) And I also am considering what will happen to the total value of the gear I have now. It won't go up, and any repairs that come up will further diminish their resale value. We seem to be at an inflection point with Canon gear. Lenses are not investments, but one can reduce the cost of ownership by selling before they depreciate too far. Even more so for bodies, which can quickly dwindle to failing junk bond status!


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 13, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> I sold my 5DIII and got an R. I liked it so much that when the holiday discounts had it below $1500 USD, I bought another, and now the 5DIV is gone too.
> 
> There are things about this EVF I don't like, but I get better results for portraits than I did with any other camera. I do still have an 80D, and I've kept a few EF lenses that balance and perform well on the R.
> 
> This is a leap for me. But I have to look at what is producing the best results, and which lenses I rarely use. (In my case, the wonderful 100-400mm II has also been sold.) And I also am considering what will happen to the total value of the gear I have now. It won't go up, and any repairs that come up will further diminish their resale value. We seem to be at an inflection point with Canon gear. Lenses are not investments, but one can reduce the cost of ownership by selling before they depreciate too far. Even more so for bodies, which can quickly dwindle to failing junk bond status!


It has been fun watching your evolution.  To me, the R is a real bargain of a camera; especially now. I also came from a 5D III and have not regretted the switch at all.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 13, 2020)

brad-man said:


> Try going to an early-bird in Miami Beach. You'll need your tripod just to keep your place in line...



When was the last time you've been to Miami Beach? Any retirees that still live there have chefs working for them, and housekeepers driven by chauffeurs to gourmet grocery stores. The early-bird special is extinct on the Beach.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 13, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> When was the last time you've been to Miami Beach? Any retiree's that still live there have chef's working for them, and housekeepers driven by chauffeurs to gourmet grocery stores. The early-bird special is extinct on the Beach.


They've all moved to The Villages and "early bird" has a whole new meaning.  Shwing!

Seriously though, I would dearly love to move back to Ocala.


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## brad-man (Jan 13, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> When was the last time you've been to Miami Beach? Any retirees that still live there have chefs working for them, and housekeepers driven by chauffeurs to gourmet grocery stores. The early-bird special is extinct on the Beach.


Miami Beach and South Beach are not the same...


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## Jasonmc89 (Jan 13, 2020)

Nelu said:


> You weren't paying attention. He's talking about the EVF, not the live view on the back screen.
> Using the EVF for a long period of time will strain your eyes, unlike the OVF.


Then buy a DSLR.


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jan 13, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Maybe, but who will buy it if it comes with the 1DX3 price and a mediocre EVF?


I was just saying what type of mirrorless camera Canon could produce.
Do you have to live so relentlessly in the real world?


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 13, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Using the EVF for a long period of time will strain your eyes, unlike the OVF.


I'd like to see a real study on this rather than assumptions. I honestly cannot tell the difference myself. At least not with the R as compared to the 5D III I used to have. It would seem that staring through any viewfinder for extended periods might strain the eyes. Now, the EVF on my Olympus sucks.


----------



## gouldopfl (Jan 13, 2020)

ykn123 said:


> he said HIS lenses have IS and HE is using a tripod - so IBIS is not so important for HIM. Depending on your photography subjects it's important to some and not important to others. Pleae stop with this nonsense of saying IBIS is a requirement. It's helpful for some and not required for others.


All of my lenses have 4-5 stops of stabilization built in so having IBS is not a huge deal breaker for me. I don't shoot much video, most of my work is photos although I am starting to do some video with macro.


----------



## mikebecurious (Jan 13, 2020)

Can’t wait for it!! Have been shooting on the EOS R and it’s superb!


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## slclick (Jan 13, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'd like to see a real study on this rather than assumptions. I honestly cannot tell the difference myself. At least not with the R as compared to the 5D III I used to have. It would seem that staring through any viewfinder for extended periods might strain the eyes. Now, the EVF on my Olympus sucks.


The EVF on your OLY has always sucked


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 13, 2020)

brad-man said:


> Miami Beach and South Beach are not the same...


North Beach/North Shore? Normandy Isle? Could be a few hanging on for dear life, homesteaded in for over 30 years...Further North? Surfside? Sunny Isles?

Are there still some early-bird specials up there? Hard to believe, but if you are enjoying them, it must be so!


----------



## slclick (Jan 13, 2020)

brad-man said:


> Miami Beach and South Beach are not the same...


Which one is more like Plantation in 1974?


----------



## slclick (Jan 13, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> It has been fun watching your evolution.  To me, the R is a real bargain of a camera; especially now. I also came from a 5D III and have not regretted the switch at all.


I wanted to feel this way, especially after my good friend CFB went the same route. However my experience was different and I didn't drop the coin. (All physical/hardware/ergonomic based- but that is how I roll) I read all the time of 5D4 shooters on the fence, so I understand the 5D3 move, it's a leap, if it fits.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 13, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Using the EVF for a long period of time will strain your eyes, unlike the OVF.


Personally, when shooting any kind of camera, I don't live with my to the viewfinder. Coincidentally, I don't have the patience to wait for birds to _ do something_, so I've never been a wildlife photographer.

As for eye-strain from too much screen time, I'd bet that you'd have a very hard time convincing CR hardcore regulars of that, seeing as we seem to be looking at some kind of screen all day long. Including the one you are reading right now!


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 13, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I'm looking for jobs so I can come back to LA right now (moved away briefly). Hoping to land in Hollywood, WeHo, Westwood . . .




Cool. Good luck! On a clear day we could see all of those places from our old spot in Silver Lake:




- A


----------



## Nelu (Jan 13, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Then buy a DSLR.


I don’t need to buy a DSLR, I already have two, thank you very much...


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 14, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'd like to see a real study on this rather than assumptions.




My mind on that test:

1) That would totally look like _A Clockwork Orange_, or

2) They might just contract a few sideline sports pros to exclusively use an EOS R (or test cam with occasionally changed out test VFs) once a week and ask how it compares.

- A


----------



## Nelu (Jan 14, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I'd like to see a real study on this rather than assumptions. I honestly cannot tell the difference myself. At least not with the R as compared to the 5D III I used to have. It would seem that staring through any viewfinder for extended periods might strain the eyes. Now, the EVF on my Olympus sucks.


While the EVF on the EOS-R is not bad , it’s not even close to what I see in the OVF on my 5D Mark IV or my 1DX.
If you can’t see the difference then what can I say, good for you ! (?)


----------



## gouldopfl (Jan 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> +1. You're presuming the 1DX3 would be outperformed by a high fps mirrorless rig, or more desirable somehow. But Canon might make it small like the A9, the battery life would be wretched for folks leaning on the shutter all day and balance with big lenses could be dreadful.
> 
> But yes, if Canon offered identical spec cameras other than one having a mirror and the other not having one, I would want to hear about both cameras on the same day. We're in a period of migration to mirrorless, and for some, the purchase represents a bit of a plunge. Adaptors are great and our EF glass will still work, sure, but a large body investment might be the only major pickup some folks make for a few years -- so they'd like to know what else might be coming in the same feature-set.
> 
> - A


None of these look anywhere close to any rumors. I have a few wants in my next camera. We'll just have to wait until more is known


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> My mind on that test:
> 
> 1) That would totally look like _A Clockwork Orange_, or
> 
> ...


I can see the problem with my Olympus. I am not getting it on my R.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> The EVF on your OLY has always sucked


Yup. One of these days that dog is gonna take a long ride from home and get tied to a tree 3 counties over.


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 14, 2020)

slclick said:


> I wanted to feel this way, especially after my good friend CFB went the same route. However my experience was different and I didn't drop the coin. (All physical/hardware/ergonomic based- but that is how I roll) I read all the time of 5D4 shooters on the fence, so I understand the 5D3 move, it's a leap, if it fits.


It was a hard decision, R vs 5D Mark IV. No doubt about that. Glass tipped the scale for me. That and AFMA.


----------



## navastronia (Jan 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Cool. Good luck! On a clear day we could see all of those places from our old spot in Silver Lake:
> 
> View attachment 188235
> 
> ...



Ugh, it's perfect. Miss those sunsets! I have a job interview at UCLA on Thursday. Thanks for the luck, will happily accept


----------



## Optics Patent (Jan 14, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Using the EVF for a long period of time will strain your eyes, unlike the OVF.



You sound like my Mom 50 years ago when I sat too close to the TV!


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 14, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> You sound like my Mom 50 years ago when I sat too close to the TV!


The radiation! The Radiation!


----------



## Nelu (Jan 14, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> The radiation! The Radiation!


It’s not the radiation but the TV will eat your brain


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 14, 2020)

Nelu said:


> It’s not the radiation but the TV will eat your brain


EVFs are a conspiracy!


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 14, 2020)

One thing is sure: These will be two fantastic cameras.


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 14, 2020)

5DV equivalent, or no buy, Canon. Two card slots, IBIS, joystick, new AF-ON button, modest mpx bump (not over 40 mpx), new sensor tech, Digic X and nice battery life, non cropped 4K video, 120fps FHD, good codec.


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 14, 2020)

JuanMa said:


> R body with APS-C sensor?



The day such camera appears, EOS-M is dead, so will not happen imo, though ergonomically, such camera is the only chance for something like 7D III ...


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## pj1974 (Jan 14, 2020)

I always love a CR3!

Two new bodies in first half of 2020 has me keen. I own a number of DSLRs (from 350D to 80D) and a M5, and have quite a lot of Canon lenses, including some lovely L glass (and a Sigma UWA).

I am one of those looking to switch to FF mirrorless in the nearish future (within the next few years). Hence my excitement with the CR3 mention of 2 new EOS R (which I take to mean “Canon FF mirrorless / RF mount” camera bodies).

My most regular photography genres include landscape, event, wildlife, some sports and macro. I dabble in other genres too. Photography is a great joy and creative release for me. (I’m a Australian Government business manager / senior analyst by day LOL).

The wants (or “needs”) I have for a EOS R may be different to some others here- but bear with me – because: a) I believe there’s logic to what I’d like and b) there are likely others with identical to similar wants/needs in a new camera body.

I would love enough resolution to be able to crop – particularly with quality lenses. 36-60mp is a very wide range, but I’d love something in that range.
AF (speed, accuracy, consistency, practical flexibility) is very important to me. I only use MF for certain subjects (e.g. still macros).
A frame rate of around 8 would be ok, but 12 would be ideal, and anything higher would be super sweet. (I do realise the trade-off between MP and FPS). Most importantly at whatever max FPS, it needs to have accurate, servo AF and quickly updating AE.
Image quality – in terms of dynamic range (DR) and colour science, etc - similar to the 5DIV / 80D sensors would be great. I get a lot of good mileage out of my 80D and M5 (identical sensors in terms of IQ). No banding or other weird IQ issues please.
An EVF that’s a step up from the EOS R. My M5 EVF is notably lower quality than the EOS R. (The M5’s EVF has harsh colours and it doesn’t handle a scene with a wide dynamic range well. The EOS R’s is better on both counts, as well as being higher resolution).
IBIS would be a wonderful treat, specifically for certain lenses I own that don’t have IS. While I use a tripod for specific photo shooting situations, where I can avoid needing a tripod wherever possible, that’s a bonus.
Video is not so important to me, I occasionally take some video (mainly of my toddler daughter doing cute things, e.g. learning to ride a bike, singing songs, etc) – but 95% of my “imagery passion” is *still* photography.

The recent release of the 90D and M6mkII give me great confidence in what Canon may pull out of the bag (or magic hat!) in terms of new EOS R cameras. Both these new APS-C cameras tick a lot of boxes.
For 2 yet to be released EOS R bodies, I do expect some new features and/or technology that set them at a bar about the M6mkII. The wording in this CR3, of ‘step up a gear’ gives me hope that Canon will do that.

Living here in Australia, I know especially the initial prices will be charged a premium rate, but hopefully in time there will be some good local deals. I have had many good years with Canon gear, and I look forward to it continuing.
In time I also would hope / expect to get RF lenses, a mix of smaller, light, convenient glass – and some speciality lenses, in some part replacing the EF/EF-S lenses that I have and use now. I could see

P..S… Btw, I found the discussion about locations, safety and scenery (particularly those of you in the US) interesting. Makes me appreciate the relative safety of where I live (in Adelaide, the capital of South Australia)… as I never feel like I have to conceal any of my gear wherever I might be, whenever I might take photos, whether at day or night. I have lived in various countries over several years (including west and east Europe) – and certainly in some areas, I would not take expensive gear (or e.g. not park my car in certain areas overnight). 

It is an exciting time to be following Canon for their gear, and as we continue in the relatively new world of FF mirrorless, it’ll be all the more enticing as technological advances are implemented and ‘early bugs / early adopter issues’ are ironed out.

Roll on 2020!


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## -pekr- (Jan 14, 2020)

Madtoffel said:


> If Canon is planning an EOS R mark ii but the specs didn't match the rumor we can start guessing which parts are right/wrong. So here are my guesses:
> -32Mp Sensor: maybe not exactly but around that
> -IBIS only in the high res model
> -12fps only without af, 8-10 with tracking af
> ...



IBIS in only a high res model does not make much sense imo. That would pretty much kill its sales. We've already got IBISless R and Rp. IBIS and new AF-ON button with new functionality need to standardise in Canon bodies from now on.


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## tron (Jan 14, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Every fast prime except the 85mm f1.4 IS doesn't have IS, and tripods are not practical for a lot of situations. Stop with this nonsense that IBS is unnecessary. Every feature that can help with taking better photos is helpful.


or allowed!


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## Jasonmc89 (Jan 14, 2020)

Nelu said:


> I don’t need to buy a DSLR, I already have two, thank you very much...


I didn’t tell you to buy a DSLR. I said if EVF’s give you eye strain, then get a DSLR instead.

thankyouverymuch


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## AlP (Jan 14, 2020)

Assuming that Canon will launch a high res body and an R replacement (we don't know that yet), I am curious to see how Canon will differentiate the two. Will the high res body be a very specialized camera with very high resolution but drawbacks in other areas, price point above the R replacement but not too much (a bit like the 5DIII /IV vs. 5DSr situation)? Or a camera which is better than a potential RII in all areas at a significantly higher price point, with a higher margin compensating for lost sales from those who might have bought 2 bodies?


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## Kit. (Jan 14, 2020)

AlP said:


> Will the high res body be


Expensive, with low burst rate (at least uncropped), with poor video specs.


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## mustafa (Jan 14, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Every fast prime except the 85mm f1.4 IS doesn't have IS, and tripods are not practical for a lot of situations. Stop with this nonsense that IBS is unnecessary. Every feature that can help with taking better photos is helpful.


My IBS is certainly unnecessary.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 14, 2020)

mustafa said:


> My IBS is certainly unnecessary.


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## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> I think the mot important part is that the gear is coming in the first half of 2020. I expected them by the end of the year.


Canon has to gain market share in a declining market if they intend to survive and buying time. They are in the position to do that. The R system is realistically a step forward as proven by the RF lenses. In addition to that, thousands of customers truly love the EOS R, despite being a first attempt and a prosumer camera.

My only suggestion is to SYSTEMATICALLY avoid watching comments from YouTube "experts" when the new model will be announced.


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## DarkPhalanx (Jan 14, 2020)

reef58 said:


> The new rumor (this post) stated the prior rumor the 30mp 12fps was wrong because Canon is stepping it up a gear. I don't know where the specs will land, but I read that to mean the specs will be better than what was reported (30mp 12fps). Maybe is is 32mp and 20fps or maybe it is 40mp and 10fps. If it were only the change of a card slot I doubt that would warrant a source correcting the entire post. I don't know merely giving an opinion.
> 
> I have no idea what adds up to you personally and how that relates to this thread. We may just have a language disconnect. Not trying to be rude.



Not a problem man, I didn't perceive any rudeness. I just think the term "stepping it up a notch" is such a broad statement, that it could be virtually anything. Knowing that a lot of people instantly groaned when they saw the "No RAW video", for me that would have been the first ting they may have wanted to address. The resolution seems to be right in the ballpark that I hoped it would be. Any higher, and it would be creating issues with low-light noise.


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## Architect1776 (Jan 14, 2020)

Tremotino said:


> What would be for you the top quality fd lenses? I have no clue since I have been born after the fd era.



Surprisingly a good portion are very good. 300mm f2.8 Fluorite, 80-200mm f4 L, 100-200mm f5.6, 15mm f2.8, 200mm f2.8, 400mm, 600mm, 800mm and 1,200mm, 300mm f4 and several others that were very good lenses and still so by even today's standards.


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## telemaque (Jan 14, 2020)

Stig Nygaard said:


> My guess.
> 1) The long rumored extremely high-res R model
> 2) An R model demonstrating where Canon is right now technically in mirrorless. It will include a lot of features found in the 1DXIII. It might have 24-25 megapixels, which potentially could give it very convincing no-crop 4K video quality (And very good low light performance).


.

For option 2), this would be in line with my discussion in November 2019 at French photo fair with a Canon executive. I was complaining about the delay Canon was having for several years on the video side at acceptable prices. I was roughly asking if Canon has ever considered a kind of GH5 type of body with a Canon mount. We discussed all what was missing on the video side. We did not discussed the low light capacity. After roughly 20 minutes of discussion, he just told me to continue to watch what Canon will be launching in 2020 and said "I think you might be pleased". He made it clear the "R" was just a start.

So I don't know about low light, but I expect a mirroless Canon body with improved Videos features in 2020.
I cross my fingers my understanding of this conversation is correct.


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## Ozarker (Jan 14, 2020)

telemaque said:


> .
> 
> For option 2), this would be in line with my discussion in November 2019 at French photo fair with a Canon executive. I was complaining about the delay Canon was having for several years on the video side at acceptable prices. I was roughly asking if Canon has ever considered a kind of GH5 type of body with a Canon mount. We discussed all what was missing on the video side. We did not discussed the low light capacity. After roughly 20 minutes of discussion, he just told me to continue to watch what Canon will be launching in 2020 and said "I think you might be pleased". He made it clear the "R" was just a start.
> 
> ...


Amazing how many Canon execs and reps who are under NDA release so much info at these electronics shows.


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## telemaque (Jan 14, 2020)

amorse said:


> I found it odd that they'd release the RII so close to the first one - it seems out of character for Canon, but I guess anything can happen right now since they're moving into new territory with the RF mount.
> 
> Maybe a lot of the feedback on the R was put into the high resolution body design (i.e. updated touch bar, 2 card slots etc), and maybe Canon was concerned that the reception to the high-resolution body (if released alone) would be tempered because it isn't the "do it all" body that people seem to be clamouring for. I really expect that high resolution body to be a specialist tool - low fps, maybe even poor low-light performance, but very high res, probably ruggedized and very very good image quality. The RII could be a do it all and a proper 5D replacement, with the updates to the R that people seem to be after.
> 
> Releasing both at the same time may allow Canon to change the dialogue in the internet media while still maintaining the "each body built for a task" business model rather than the good, better, best segmentation model used by other manufacturers. Otherwise people seem focused on complaining about the lack of a feature in a camera designed for something else. Time will tell I guess!



I think their sales results are putting a serious pressure on the company.

They might be obliged to change their classical approach and be more agile on the market.









A closer look into the latest financial reports from Canon, Nikon and Sony


We've pored over financial reports from Canon, Nikon and Sony, as well as sales figures from CIPA, to see how the three manufacturers stack up against each other and the industry as a whole.




www.dpreview.com


----------



## Russ6357 (Jan 14, 2020)

I’ve a suspicion that the bottom line (EBITDA) was the real motivation behind the mk III big lenses - moving the majority of the glass back reduces lens size and radically reduces lens production costs... weight savings are what we might call “positive side effects”


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## dwarven (Jan 14, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> Canon has to gain market share in a declining market if they intend to survive and buying time. They are in the position to do that. The R system is realistically a step forward as proven by the RF lenses. In addition to that, thousands of customers truly love the EOS R, despite being a first attempt and a prosumer camera.
> 
> My only suggestion is to SYSTEMATICALLY avoid watching comments from YouTube "experts" when the new model will be announced.



The EOS R is already pretty great, yeah. They just need to convince all of the "lit" instagram kiddos and Youtube e-celebs with a packed spec sheet. The R looks inferior to the a7iii (for example) on paper, but having shot with both I much prefer the R. There's also the issue of available native glass. Having cheaper options of the 2.8 trinity available from Sigma and Tamron will be pretty important if they want to stay in the game. Not too many prosumers want to drop $3k on an L lens.


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## SUNDOG04 (Jan 14, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> Canon has to gain market share in a declining market if they intend to survive and buying time. They are in the position to do that. The R system is realistically a step forward as proven by the RF lenses. In addition to that, thousands of customers truly love the EOS R, despite being a first attempt and a prosumer camera.
> 
> My only suggestion is to SYSTEMATICALLY avoid watching comments from YouTube "experts" when the new model will be announced.


Good idea. Seems like they like to shock people, use click-bait titles, whatever it takes to get you to watch their videos. Some are professionals that I tolerate, but others enthusiasts, too lazy to do, or incapable of, other paid photography.


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## Adelino (Jan 14, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Amazing how many Canon execs and reps who are under NDA release so much info at these electronics shows.


That's not really "so much info" just telling somebody they will be happy with Canon in 2020, what else are they supposed to say?


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## ahsanford (Jan 14, 2020)

telemaque said:


> my discussion in November 2019 at French photo fair with a Canon executive. I was complaining about the delay Canon was having for several years on the video side at acceptable prices. I was roughly asking if Canon has ever considered a kind of GH5 type of body with a Canon mount. We discussed all what was missing on the video side. We did not discussed the low light capacity. After roughly 20 minutes of discussion, he just told me to continue to watch what Canon will be launching in 2020 and said "I think you might be pleased". He made it clear the "R" was just a start.





CanonFanBoy said:


> Amazing how many Canon execs and reps who are under NDA release so much info at these electronics shows.




I guess, but could you better prognosticate a spec list, release timeline or FF mirrorless segmentation plan off of those comments? 

As written, that just seemed like 'We will have new things that hopefully will address your impossible expectations. I shall smile now in a reassuring manner. All is fine.'

I didn't hear a huge tell in there. It's not like they confirmed IBIS, talked about releasing EF and RF bodies side by side, pricing, new features, etc.

- A


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## tron (Jan 14, 2020)

Apart from the fact that I would love/need a 5DMkV (that I would love a lot for low light, interiors, general purpose) and a 5DsRII (that I would need for bird photography) I believe EOS R is more than pretty decent. I received to day the RF15-35 2.8L IS and in a few days the 24-70 2.8L IS. So even if I really love 5DIV (and a 5DV even more in the future) EOS R will more or less replaces it (finally 2.8 wide angle and normal zooms with IS) and least in situations where one body is enough for the 5DIV mentioned needs of mine). But the 5DsRII would be a must for me since its Rs equivalent will not be suitable for birding. And as far as landscape is concerned either 5DIV or EOS R are enough for me.

So for general (Still) photography EOS R seems enough to me. But I am not a pro. By adding a second card (and optionally IBIS) we will have a camera good enough for professionals..


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## unfocused (Jan 14, 2020)

telemaque said:


> A closer look into the latest financial reports from Canon, Nikon and Sony
> 
> 
> We've pored over financial reports from Canon, Nikon and Sony, as well as sales figures from CIPA, to see how the three manufacturers stack up against each other and the industry as a whole.
> ...


That you for sharing this story. I had not seen it and although it is now a few months old, it is informative and provides a nice factual counterbalance to the uninformed opinions so often shared on this site. 

No doubt, these are challenging times for the camera industry, especially after so many years when digital was a new technology and people were happily replacing film cameras with new digital toys. 

I disagree with those who view the adoption of mirrorless cameras as "revolutionary" in the same way as the adoption of digital technology. I don't think the average consumer really cares about or even understands the difference between DSLRs and mirrorless bodies. Plus, today's mirrorless cameras are entering a market that is dominated by cellphones, which was not the case when digital DSLRs first arrived on scene. 

I tend to fall back on my standard viewpoint, which is that today's camera market is similar to the market pre-digital, when professionals and enthusiasts bought interchangeable lens cameras and most people used Instamatics. Canon and Nikon prospered during those decades by marketing to a narrow customer base and I suspect they both have known for many years that the market would settle back in to a more traditional place.


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## tron (Jan 14, 2020)

unfocused said:


> That you for sharing this story. I had not seen it and although it is now a few months old, it is informative and provides a nice factual counterbalance to the uninformed opinions so often shared on this site.
> 
> No doubt, these are challenging times for the camera industry, especially after so many years when digital was a new technology and people were happily replacing film cameras with new digital toys.
> 
> ...


+100000000000000 

I agree 100%. Digital photography is immensely more revolutionary to film that mirrorless cameras are to DSLRs. 
It's the final photo that counts and in the digital era the result is the same irrespective of whether a mirror exists or not.


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## noms78 (Jan 14, 2020)

Lukas Haupt said:


> As I was told from Canon marketing guy, he accidentelly told me, that we will soon se low light monster and hig mpx body. So it seems he knew, what is going on. I m really curious!



And this is your first post? I call BS.


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## slclick (Jan 14, 2020)

tron said:


> +100000000000000
> 
> I agree 100%. Digital photography is immensely more revolutionary to film that mirrorless cameras are to DSLRs.
> It's the final photo that counts and in the digital era the result is the same irrespective of whether a mirror exists or not.


Exactly, Evolutionary in certain aspects. Not a revolution at all. Kind of boring actually.


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## tron (Jan 14, 2020)

telemaque said:


> I think their sales results are putting a serious pressure on the company.
> 
> They might be obliged to change their classical approach and be more agile on the market.
> 
> ...


except existing R users will not take Canon very seriously and maybe future buyers too if the gap between releases is very small. Why the R II and not the R III ? ohh wait the R IV will be fantastic!


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## telemaque (Jan 14, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I guess, but could you better prognosticate a spec list, release timeline or FF mirrorless segmentation plan off of those comments?
> 
> As written, that just seemed like 'We will have new things that hopefully will address your impossible expectations. I shall smile now in a reassuring manner. All is fine.'
> 
> ...



Your comment could be very true, only future will confirm.

In order to summarize the real information I learnt was: 


Launch of one pro DSLR in 2020 because it is the only way for Canon to offer a serious burst rate for professional sport photographer. As said I was told a mirrorless body can not offer such burst rate? Why? I don't know nor understand...
There will be a mirrorless body that will be oriented into video and should cover most of your discussed need around a Canon version of the GH5.
So yes, you are correct this is not a lot of information but enough for me to wait and see.

Was it only a polite answer as you say or as "Adelino" says... maybe. 
Future will tell and from this CR3 announcement before end of June 2020!


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## Frodo (Jan 14, 2020)

pj1974 said:


> The wants (or “needs”) I have for a EOS R may be different to some others here- but bear with me – because: a) I believe there’s logic to what I’d like and b) there are likely others with identical to similar wants/needs in a new camera body.
> 
> I would love enough resolution to be able to crop – particularly with quality lenses. 36-60mp is a very wide range, but I’d love something in that range.
> AF (speed, accuracy, consistency, practical flexibility) is very important to me. I only use MF for certain subjects (e.g. still macros).
> ...



Some (friendly) comments from across the Tasman.
I suggest you spend some time with an EOS R. In relation to your wishes:
- Currently 30MP, so not far from your range.
- With the firmware update, AF is very good.
- I think framerate can be overhyped by non-sports or wildlife photographers. The EOS R can do 8fps (albeit without AF).
- Image quality is as good (if not slightly better) than 5DIV (see my post on the R upgrade thread).
- If you set the default jpg picture style to "neutral" or similar, you have a less contrasty image in the EVF. The EVF was one thing that delayed me getting the R, but I am now largely used to it.
- IBIS would be nice
- Video is potentially an issue if you need uncropped 4k.

I think that the R is a surprisngly good camera - this realisation comes after a couple of months of ownership. And a reasonable price now. Who knows what the new versions will deliver and what they will cost.


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## slclick (Jan 14, 2020)

Is anyone using the R even if it uncomfortable to them? My 5D3 with L plate and handstrap are like a 2nd skin to me. That's the feeling I'm looking towards. I get the same feeling from the EOS 3 and the 7D series. Sony's felt like a toy, Oly's felt like a toy with a worse EVF. Fuji's are alright, I could see having an X100F for kicks. (3rd body)

I'm not one of those 'you'll get used to it' people. I know from the getgo. It's like car shopping and when you sit in the drivers seat it jus t clicks and there's no blind spots.


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## tron (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is anyone using the R even if it uncomfortable to them? My 5D3 with L plate and handstrap are like a 2nd skin to me. That's the feeling I'm looking towards. I get the same feeling from the EOS 3 and the 7D series. Sony's felt like a toy, Oly's felt like a toy with a worse EVF. Fuji's are alright, I could see having an X100F for kicks. (3rd body)
> 
> I'm not one of those 'you'll get used to it' people. I know from the getgo. It's like car shopping and when you sit in the drivers seat it jus t clicks and there's no blind spots.


5DIV is more comfortable to use than the EOS R. It's almost the same with 5DsR and 7DII. It has an advantage.
My main concern is the lack of buttons. I have made customizations but the camera is still a little uncomfortable to use in relation to Canon DSLRs. But since it will not be used for birding and action photography and it gives me 2.8 L IS wide angle and normal zooms I can bear with it.


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## Ozarker (Jan 15, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I guess, but could you better prognosticate a spec list, release timeline or FF mirrorless segmentation plan off of those comments?
> 
> As written, that just seemed like 'We will have new things that hopefully will address your impossible expectations. I shall smile now in a reassuring manner. All is fine.'
> 
> ...


Not off those comments. However, we are all the time getting "rumors" from people saying they talked to a Canon rep or engineer who told them something that never comes to fruition. So I put just as much faith in such "conversations" as a kid on a tricycle. For some reason people want to "quote" reps they had conversations with that obviously never happened. The conversation with the OP probably did happen. At the same time you know as well as I that people on here give out infor that was supposedly given them with a wink and a nod.


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## Ozarker (Jan 15, 2020)

noms78 said:


> And this is your first post? I call BS.


Exactly the kind of "rumor" that pops up here where a rep or engineer "accidentally" let something slip.


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## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Exactly the kind of "rumor" that pops up here where a rep or engineer "accidentally" let something slip.


Or a dusty testing bench


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## Optics Patent (Jan 15, 2020)

tron said:


> +100000000000000
> 
> I agree 100%. Digital photography is immensely more revolutionary to film that mirrorless cameras are to DSLRs.
> It's the final photo that counts and in the digital era the result is the same irrespective of whether a mirror exists or not.



Mirrorless is probably like AF or IS. Maybe both. Important leaps that become ubiquitous and essential. 

The profound difference is that for the first time the photographers sees what the sensor is seeing.


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## Optics Patent (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is anyone using the R even if it uncomfortable to them? My 5D3 with L plate and handstrap are like a 2nd skin to me. That's the feeling I'm looking towards. I get the same feeling from the EOS 3 and the 7D series. Sony's felt like a toy, Oly's felt like a toy with a worse EVF. Fuji's are alright, I could see having an X100F for kicks. (3rd body)
> 
> I'm not one of those 'you'll get used to it' people. I know from the getgo. It's like car shopping and when you sit in the drivers seat it jus t clicks and there's no blind spots.



I’m much more comfortable with Nikon but switched because of Canon lenses. I’ll get used to Canon and it is likely superior aside from the clear lens supremacy. I tried switch from PC to Mac and that was a different story. Impossible.


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## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Mirrorless is probably like AF or IS. Maybe both. Important leaps that become ubiquitous and essential.
> 
> The profound difference is that for the first time the photographers sees what the sensor is seeing.


Hmmm, I will agree to disagree on all counts. Essential is a big leap. I could go without using both for the rest of my days....The WYSIWYG thing has been hashed and rehashed here ad nauseam. So basically, my way of putting it is we will have more choices so that's a win win for all. Still, you can shoot the worlds greatest photograph with manual focus, no stability, low to no pixels and so forth.


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## Optics Patent (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> Hmmm, I will agree to disagree on all counts. Essential is a big leap. I could go without using both for the rest of my days....The WYSIWYG thing has been hashed and rehashed here ad nauseam. So basically, my way of putting it is we will have more choices so that's a win win for all. Still, you can shoot the worlds greatest photograph with manual focus, no stability, low to no pixels and so forth.



I can agree with all that. I’m really taking about the business and market and not photography. 

Ironically, with IBIS and focus peaking, the vintage lenses can have a renaissance. 

I had a non VR Nikon 400 f2.8 that was hand holdable on the Z6. Of course it literally weighed double what the new Canon weighs.


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## dwarven (Jan 15, 2020)

One of the things I hope they continue with the new R bodies is the shutter closing when you turn it off so dust doesn't get on the sensor.


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## ahsanford (Jan 15, 2020)

tron said:


> except existing R users will not take Canon very seriously and maybe future buyers too if the gap between releases is very small. Why the R II and not the R III ? ohh wait the R IV will be fantastic!




Right. I don't see Canon just flipping to a Sony A7 model and spitting out big, same-market-segment upgrades often for the reasons you've indicated. A7 and A7R users were put through the mill as their gear was regularly one-upped with new versions.

...but Canon _*did*_ kind of do that with EOS M. I believe it was a new model like every 15 months or so.

But FF is a different market. Perhaps we do see a flurry of releases, but not in such a way as to obsolete a specific model. Instead, they may build up their FF body portfolio and establish their segmentation (good/better/best, good/all-arounder/super detail, good/video/pro, etc.).

In other words, current RF body owners won't lose their minds when a (say) 70x6 EOS RS rig comes out for $3500. "Oh, that's the top one, or that's a pricey premium model. I'll wait for the EOS R2 or EOS RP2."

- A


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## Maz0327 (Jan 15, 2020)

I just got the EOS R I was debating to wait for the MKII. Is it really realistic to think they’re gonna realize a MKII just 1 year after the release of MKI and with out announcement? I don’t know if I should be made cause the R is about to be mad cheap or because I could’ve waited a few more months for the MKII lol


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## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

Maz0327 said:


> I just got the EOS R I was debating to wait for the MKII. Is it really realistic to think they’re gonna realize a MKII just 1 year after the release of MKI and with out announcement? I don’t know if I should be made cause the R is about to be mad cheap or because I could’ve waited a few more months for the MKII lol


I wouldn't be mad, I don't think the R is made cheap.


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## Maz0327 (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> I wouldn't be mad, I don't think the R is made cheap.


What I meant to say that I’m gonna miss out on some promo they’ll put out


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## canonmike (Jan 15, 2020)

Whatever Canon comes out with, I just hope, at least some of my fellow CR poster's opinions and speculations are validated by the results. I will be so glad to see your eager anticipation of same finally rewarded with big s _ _ _ eating grins on your faces, as you drool on the box of new Canon R gear in front of you. I'll be watching. Now, take care of them Canon. They have been oh so patient. You can do this Canon.......it won't be long now.


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## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

Maz0327 said:


> What I meant to say that I’m gonna miss out on some promo they’ll put out


I was just playing off the typos, you're good. Enjoy your R


----------



## canonmike (Jan 15, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> Yes, that's true... but on the other hand Canon's move is logical.
> 
> The Sony rumor page reports that Sony will very likely announce the Sony A7 Mark IV in the first half of 2020. Whether or not people here like the Sony A7 Mark III everybody has to admit that this camera was a huge financial success for Sony. They also gained a massive boost in reputation. It was something like Canon's 5D Mark II, Mark III or the 6D Mark I. While Canon is still the leader of overall camera sales, they are not the leader of mirrorless full frame sales and Sony can continue to brag about it. With the Sony A7 Mark IV on the horizon, Canon could gamble and hope that Sony won't be able to repeat their A7 Mark III success, but this time Canon has chosen to directly attack them with the EOS R Mark II.
> 
> The internet will obviously talk about for months who's the winner specs- and saleswise but the actual winner is the customer. Both companies will push each other to release the better camera.


Well said.


----------



## Nelu (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> Is anyone using the R even if it uncomfortable to them? My 5D3 with L plate and handstrap are like a 2nd skin to me. That's the feeling I'm looking towards. I get the same feeling from the EOS 3 and the 7D series. Sony's felt like a toy, Oly's felt like a toy with a worse EVF. Fuji's are alright, I could see having an X100F for kicks. (3rd body)
> 
> I'm not one of those 'you'll get used to it' people. I know from the getgo. It's like car shopping and when you sit in the drivers seat it jus t clicks and there's no blind spots.


I’m using the EOS-R but I’m sorry, it’s not uncomfortable to me


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## Inspired (Jan 15, 2020)

Question to canon rumors, so does this mean better specs coming than those of the CR1 post?


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## transpo1 (Jan 15, 2020)

Awesome. I'm going to be optimistic and say this is going to be a very good year for no crop 4K video on Canon stills cameras


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## Joules (Jan 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> At the same time you know as well as I that people on here give out infor that was supposedly given them with a wink and a nod.


You heard it here FIRST!


----------



## Joules (Jan 15, 2020)

Frodo said:


> I think that the R is a surprisngly good camera - this realisation comes after a couple of months of ownership. And a reasonable price now. Who knows what the new versions will deliver and what they will cost.


As good as it is, Canon seems to have spent a lot of time getting their technology to the next level. The advancements we see in the M6 II and 1DX II likely took them some good effort and investment cost. We've also see them chasing IBIS for what feels like an eternity. Once all these achievements materialize in a new mirrorless camera, we'll know for certain. But I believe it will be quite a significant upgrade over the R, which is after all just a first iteration.


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## Stig Nygaard (Jan 15, 2020)

Inspired said:


> Question to canon rumors, so does this mean better specs coming than those of the CR1 post?



Canon Rumors probably doesn't know that for sure. He's just forwarding what he have been told by his source.
But personally, I don't think it should be thought as a comparison to the other rumor. My interpretation of such a comment, is that Canon in general will be stepping up compared to its earlier releases with new technology and targeted more demanding users.
1DXIII (and 90D and M6II) has already demonstrated that Canon has developed new sensor technology improved in several ways, including much faster readout, which will be an advantage to mirrorless cameras in many ways.
1DXIII also introduced a new lowpass filter promising more sharpness and details, and a lot of other updated technology that we for sure will also be seen in some of the upcoming new mirrorless cameras.
Maybe Canon also have their IBIS technology ready now.

I don't know where the idea of an "EOS R Mark II" is on its way, is coming from? I think it is to early for a new version of that. I believe we are getting new models to supplement the R and RP. The RII rumors seems to me to be based only on questionable CR1 rumors and some peoples wishlist spec-lists. And they doesn't make much sense to me.


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## Aussie shooter (Jan 15, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I would contend it was the first time someone really landed a glove on Canon strictly from the strength of a spec list.
> 
> Sony always had these Ferrari like specs, but the various A7/A9 cameras were easy to dismiss:
> 
> ...


Not just you. The grip IS a crime against humanity. But they are even addressing that so cudos to them. As for the 'spec war'. They will probably have to offer the specs. Even if they are half assed but I hope they don't go down that path and just keep offering good quality, reliable and functional cameras. I want to take photos in all conditions and situations. I have no interest is getting into a spec war with Sony shooters in order to compensate for certain......deficiencies.


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## Joules (Jan 15, 2020)

Stig Nygaard said:


> The RII rumors seems to me to be based only on questionable CR1 rumors and some peoples wishlist spec-lists. And they doesn't make much sense to me.


There are a bunch of times we heard about an R replacement coming soon. If the CR1 makes you doubtful, here's a CR2 rumors about it:









Canon EOS R Mark II in testing [CR2] #EOSR


We have been told that the follow-up to the original Canon EOS R is now in testing by a small group of Canon professionals. The source claims that the Canon



www.canonrumors.com





It just makes a ton of sense to update the R ASAP. Technology wise the R is at the same level as the 5D IV, and it is just a bad representation of what Canon can do now with their latest tech. After having spent what has to be a lot of time and money to develop that, why would they not want to harvest the fruits of those efforts as soon as possible.


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## dominic_siu (Jan 15, 2020)

I also want to see a proper R replacement as I use the R since it release on first day, found the multi function bar quite disturbing, I jump from 5D4 only because I want to use RF lenses.


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## Lukas Haupt (Jan 15, 2020)

noms78 said:


> And this is your first post? I call BS.


Not the first post. I dunno. That is what I was told. It was photographer doing also marketing for our country. He was shooting with 5d mk iv. We had discussion about eos R and he was unhappy about one card slot. Than he share, that 2020 will be bug. There will be two bodies - hight res and great low light camera. It is not reliable - just sharing what he said...


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## Architect1776 (Jan 15, 2020)

tron said:


> except existing R users will not take Canon very seriously and maybe future buyers too if the gap between releases is very small. Why the R II and not the R III ? ohh wait the R IV will be fantastic!



Sort of like Sony?


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## BillB (Jan 15, 2020)

Joules said:


> As good as it is, Canon seems to have spent a lot of time getting their technology to the next level. The advancements we see in the M6 II and 1DX II likely took them some good effort and investment cost. We've also see them chasing IBIS for what feels like an eternity. Once all these achievements materialize in a new mirrorless camera, we'll know for certain. But I believe it will be quite a significant upgrade over the R, which is after all just a first iteration.


As far as I know, Canon has never referred to an upcoming R Mark II. The next medium res camera may be more of a 5D mirrorless than a R Mark II (with a price to match). They do seem to have the technology to make that kind of jump, but I don't think it will happen at the R price point.


----------



## Adrianf (Jan 15, 2020)

Perhaps a mirrorless 7D3 equivalent is possible given the work they put into the focusing system in the 1Dx3? A 7D2 successor is so overdue.


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## Joules (Jan 15, 2020)

BillB said:


> As far as I know, Canon has never referred to an upcoming R Mark II. The next medium res camera may be more of a 5D mirrorless than a R Mark II (with a price to match). They do seem to have the technology to make that kind of jump, but I don't think it will happen at the R price point.


Obviously Canon won't talk about any upcoming bodies before the actual announcement.

But if you read the rumors on this site, there is a lot of talk about an upcoming high resolution RF mount camera that replaces the 5DS line, and there also is talk of a replacement for the R. And to me that makes a lot of sense.

They literally have the technology to improve every single aspect of the R. Throughput, image quality, AF performance, battery life, you name it. If the R is what they intend most people to use, it should be their most attractive body.


----------



## deleteme (Jan 15, 2020)

Whaaaat? Canon won't introduce the magic R we have been fantasizing about?


----------



## Del Paso (Jan 15, 2020)

Normalnorm said:


> Whaaaat? Canon won't introduce the magic R we have been fantasizing about?


They will, and the next EOS R HP *will even be gold-plated.
* Harry Potter


----------



## David_E (Jan 15, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> Stop with this nonsense that IBS is unnecessary.


People have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 130 years. I have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 50 years. I take that to be proof that it is not _necessary_, though I recognize that it could be _useful_ for some people—and gratifying for those who fall for every new gimmick that comes along.


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## Kit Lens Jockey (Jan 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> People have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 130 years. I have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 50 years. I take that to be proof that it is not _necessary_, though I recognize that it could be _useful_ for some people—and gratifying for those who fall for every new gimmick that comes along.


People have been making great photos for more than 130 years, but a lot of the photos made today couldn't have been made 130 years ago. Every further advancement in photographic technology raises the bar of what is possible to capture. If there's technology out there that will allow me to capture something in a way I wouldn't have physically been able to before, then I want it.

If IBIS is such a gimmick, then why has lens IS stuck around and been an in-demand feature for decades?


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 15, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> People have been making great photos for more than 130 years, but a lot of the photos made today couldn't have been made 130 years ago. Every further advancement in photographic technology raises the bar of what is possible to capture. If there's technology out there that will allow me to capture something in a way I wouldn't have physically been able to before, then I want it.
> 
> If IBIS is such a gimmick, then why has lens IS stuck around and been an in-demand feature for decades?


Walk past his house and he'll scream, "GET OFF MY LAWN!"  He's probably still stuck on film what with digital being such a gimmick and all.


----------



## sanj (Jan 15, 2020)

Kit Lens Jockey said:


> People have been making great photos for more than 130 years, but a lot of the photos made today couldn't have been made 130 years ago. Every further advancement in photographic technology raises the bar of what is possible to capture. If there's technology out there that will allow me to capture something in a way I wouldn't have physically been able to before, then I want it.
> 
> If IBIS is such a gimmick, then why has lens IS stuck around and been an in-demand feature for decades?


It is all possible. Also possible to live without internet. Also possible to walk and not drive. Etc.


----------



## Mbell75 (Jan 15, 2020)

I think this means the specs for the high megapixel R and the R Mark II were not correct and that Canon is "stepping it up" with more features. That probably means we can expect to see things like IBIS, dual card slots and some of the video features from the 1DX III, like uncropped 4k 60p. Probably a better FPS than what was posted here too. Would be awesome if they are both released first half of this year too.


----------



## DarkPhalanx (Jan 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> People have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 130 years. I have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 50 years. I take that to be proof that it is not _necessary_, though I recognize that it could be _useful_ for some people—and gratifying for those who fall for every new gimmick that comes along.




IBIS is not a gimmick. Neither is AF for that matter, which is almost a necessity for photography today. I am sure that there were individuals screaming "what is that AF atrocity that you speak of?" back in the day when all anyone knew was manual focus.

It's called "an advancement for photography". What you have isn't proof, rather it's simply your "opinion". Nothing more and nothing less. And concerning IBIS, it would seem that your opinion on the matter is in the vast minority.


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## scyrene (Jan 15, 2020)

Jasonmc89 said:


> Do you have to live so relentlessly in the real world?



I'm afraid we all do, whether we admit it or not.


----------



## scyrene (Jan 15, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> Coincidentally, I don't have the patience to wait for birds to _ do something_, so I've never been a wildlife photographer.



In my experience, it's the opposite - I'm waiting for the birds to *stop* doing things and pose nicely


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 15, 2020)

Seems like Canon’s customers have made it pretty clear what we want. Now all Canon has to do is tell us what we are going to get. I wish they would just get on with it. I’m tired of waiting.


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## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Walk past his house and he'll scream, "GET OFF MY LAWN!"  He's probably still stuck on film what with digital being such a gimmick and all.


Throwing stones? We all have a bit of curmudgeon in us, well, us old codgers I mean. And you CFB, are you telling me you don't have a film background? It's never too late!


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## Ozarker (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> Throwing stones? We all have a bit of curmudgeon in us, well, us old codgers I mean. And you CFB, are you telling me you don't have a film background? It's never too late!


haha. My only film background only involves 110 film... enough to discourage anyone.


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## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> haha. My only film background only involves 110 film... enough to discourage anyone.


I bet you remember flash cubes though....millennials, you can go snapchat your meal while we reminisce about the history of photography.


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## Optics Patent (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> I bet you remember flash cubes though....millennials, you can go snapchat your meal while we reminisce about the history of photography.



My life as a 10 year old changed when I figured out how to discharge Magicubes without a camera.


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## Ozarker (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> I bet you remember flash cubes though....millennials, you can go snapchat your meal while we reminisce about the history of photography.


I do remember flash cubes, but I am a boomer.


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## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> My life as a 10 year old changed when I figured out how to discharge Magicubes without a camera.


aha, the percussion igniter!


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## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I do remember flash cubes, but I am a boomer.


No way, too young. You're the older end of Gen X.


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## Ozarker (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> No way, too young. You're the older end of Gen X.


hahaha. 1963 my friend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomers


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## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> hahaha. 1963 my friend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomers


I disagree with that range. Many factors. Generation X....Billy Idol's band of the namesake started in 1977, Punk rock (started ~ 1976) All those kids and people were born late 50's early 60's. That is enough right there but Douglas Coupland coined the phrase in 1991 about young people born in the late 50's early 60's in his groundbreaking novel. 

To many upstarts, artists, musicians and the like born from ~1960-1965 that in no way shape or form represent the Boomer Generation. I'm 1964 myself and was playing in punk rock, ska and goth bands from 1981 and on....if my teenagers say "Ok Boomer' to me, they get an earful.

Wikipedia, take it with a grain of smelling salts.


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## sulla (Jan 15, 2020)

If one of them has IBIS and a good low-light performance it will also have my name on it.
It would be a dream to use my non-stabilised lenses in an easier way on an IBIS body in low-light conditions. Sooooo many lost shots to camera shake...


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## Ozarker (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> I disagree with that range. Many factors. Generation X....Billy Idol's band of the namesake started in 1977, Punk rock (started ~ 1976) All those kids and people were born late 50's early 60's. That is enough right there but Douglas Coupland coined the phrase in 1991 about young people born in the late 50's early 60's in his groundbreaking novel.
> 
> To many upstarts, artists, musicians and the like born from ~1960-1965 that in no way shape or form represent the Boomer Generation. I'm 1964 myself and was playing in punk rock, ska and goth bands from 1981 and on....if my teenagers say "Ok Boomer' to me, they get an earful.
> 
> Wikipedia, take it with a grain of smelling salts.


Dis agree all you like. I'll stick with the government specifics rather than Billy Idol.  You music choices have nothing to do with which era (boomer, x, y, z, millenial, etc) you belong to. I listen to classical and baroque. BTW: 1964.5 and on are not boomers. It all has to do with birth rates as far as boomers go. It ain't called the baby boom fer nuthin'. 

"
*"GENERATION X (1965-1980)*
That comment in _The Observer_ was in reference to a then-recently published book called _Generation X _by Jane Deverson and Charles Hamblett. A few years later, Joan Broad bought a copy at a garage sale, her son found it, and he fell in love with the name.

That son was Billy Idol, and according to his memoir, _Dancing with Myself_, “We immediately thought it could be a great name for this new band, since we both felt part of a youth movement bereft of a future, that we were completely misunderstood by and detached from the present social and cultural spectrum. We also felt the name projected the many possibilities that came with presenting our generation’s feelings and thoughts.” The band Generation X would begin Billy Idol’s career.

But the name Generation X wouldn’t become associated with a wide group of people until 1991. That's the year Douglas Coupland’s _Generation X: Tales for an Accelerated Culture_ was released. The book became a sensation for its ability to capture early '90s culture and, although it didn’t coin the words, helped popularize a range of terms as diverse as McJob and pamphleting—and a name for an entire generation."


----------



## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Dis agree all you like. I'll stick with the government specifics rather than Billy Idol.  You music choices have nothing to do with which era (boomer, x, y, z, millenial, etc) you belong to. I listen to classical and baroque. BTW: 1964.5 and on are not boomers. It all has to do with birth rates as far as boomers go. It ain't called the baby boom fer nuthin'.
> 
> "
> *"GENERATION X (1965-1980)*
> ...


Yes however the cut down 'Ok Boomer' has EVERYTHING to do with attitude and not birth date. Cheers!


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 15, 2020)

slclick said:


> Yes however the cut down 'Ok Boomer' has EVERYTHING to do with attitude and not birth date. Cheers!


Ok boomer.


----------



## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Ok boomer.


Zing!


----------



## telemaque (Jan 15, 2020)

David_E said:


> People have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 130 years. I have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 50 years. I take that to be proof that it is not _necessary_, though I recognize that it could be _useful_ for some people—and gratifying for those who fall for every new gimmick that comes along.



In photography, you are absolutely correct. However, in video IBIS is very useful and welcome.
Today, on mirrorless bodies the usage is a lot for photo AND video. Not only photo.


----------



## pj1974 (Jan 15, 2020)

Frodo said:


> Some (friendly) comments from across the Tasman.
> I suggest you spend some time with an EOS R. In relation to your wishes:
> - Currently 30MP, so not far from your range.
> - With the firmware update, AF is very good.
> ...



Aussie greetings Frodo in the fair land of NZ... oops I mean MiddleEarth!

Below I'll address your response to my message about why the EOS R isn't the camera for me.

I did not go into depth about ergonomics in my earlier post, but that is part (but definitely not the only reason) why the EOS R isn’t the camera for me. FWIW, from the very beginning I knew that the EOS R would be a much better ‘performing’ camera – in the field, and in use, than many of the ‘spec sheet warriors’. I have known and appreciated this about many Canon cameras for many years. While one does get more accustomed to ergonomics in time, there is also very much a degree where ergonomics don’t work to a degree one is comfortable for. I have owned several cameras over multiple decades (from the 1980’s till today) – including many Canon and other brand DSLRs. Certain cameras I picked up and knew they would work for me (and they have), whereas others I picked up and didn’t feel comfortable from the beginning, and I tried to ‘make the work’ – but each time, after some time, I sold these (after some months of use). So I am very aware of what works and what doesn’t for me. The R’s ergonomics don’t work for me.

I have spent some time with the EOS R, not just once, but multiple times, including some extended periods borrowing a friend's EOS R matched with some of his and my own quality L (& non-L) glass. It feels uncomfortable for me / my hands to hold with glass that is heavier than 300gr. Compared to using 5D series, 80D, 7D, etc – the EOS R gives me hand cramp and the body layout is not intuitive to me.

(As an aside, but related note, the M5’s ergonomics are worse than the R, but that has the constraint of being a much smaller ‘system’ – and I accept the poorer ergonomics of the EOS M system, because it is – for me – the small / much more portable system).

Now, as to the other aspects you list, I’ll go through them one by one. _Please read and understand that I am “not hating on the EOS R” – it is a great camera for certain (even many!) purposes, but it does not (yet) all my needs/wants in a photography tool._


36 MP is really the minimum I want, 50MP would be ideal. There’s a real, notable difference between 30MP and 50MP (my ideal) especially when it comes to cropping, e.g. for wildlife, or certain takes on landscape photography. I do take your point though, it’s not like ’30 MP’ is ‘low’ – I have used digital cameras of under 1 MP back many years ago! The earliest DSLRs I toyed with were around 6MP.
AF is good (accurate and great at tracking), but it is not yet ideal for fast moving subjects (think birds in flight, which rapidly change in direction). My DSLRs do a better job in terms of usability here (not necessarily accuracy)
There is a minimum frame rate that realistically works for certain sports and wildlife. (I do a fair bit of both these types of photography). The EOS R just doesn’t cut it in this regard because as I wrote in my earlier post, FPS must match continual AF to be meaningful for me. The M6 mkII definitely hints of better potential for the future EOS R models
I have no complaints about the EOS R’s image quality… but banding is a concern I mentioned, in the that that it won’t appear with a new sensor – as some sensor changes have introduced in the past (not just Canon)
Thanks for the reminder about setting JPG style to neutral (and I manually turned down the contrast and saturation) on my M5. I had known about that before, so I changed that last night, and the view through the VF definitely improved, cheers! I shoot images exclusively in RAW file format, so that’s fine – as it doesn’t impact the actual image outcome
Glad that we agree, IBIS would be nice. 
Video is not a big consideration for me… though I will write here, that a high FPS, to allow slow-motion is one feature I use occasionally (e.g. for my remote control cars driving around, doing stunts, etc). I don’t need 4k (but I do understand for some more serious videographers, how important this can be).
I am looking forward to new EOS R models Canon will purportedly release over the first half of 2020!

Kind regards,

PJ


----------



## slclick (Jan 15, 2020)

telemaque said:


> In photography, you are absolutely correct. However, in video IBIS is very useful and welcome.
> Today, on mirrorless bodies the usage is a lot for photo AND video. Not only photo.


Occasionally, some folks here chime in about wanting a stills only body. I agree that it is a bit ridiculous when in this day and age the costs associated with adding software are negligible to none for video yet now it can be argued that hardware is becoming more and more specific for video use. Therefore there are costs associated with the hybrid cameras (which 99% of bodies fall under) One thing I am getting at is all the talk about BSI sensors. I understand the low light shooting benefits but are there video implications as well? Also, what about BSI for monochrome?


----------



## scyrene (Jan 15, 2020)

DarkPhalanx said:


> IBIS is not a gimmick. Neither is AF for that matter, which is almost a necessity for photography today. I am sure that there were individuals screaming "what is that AF atrocity that you speak of?" back in the day when all anyone knew was manual focus.



If I may, there is a slight difference between the introduction of IBIS and AF - and I speak as someone who'd welcome it. IBIS would help lenses without IS quite a lot, maybe giving you 4-5 stops of stabilisation on shorter focal lengths (it's said to be less effective on longer lenses). But it might only add 1-2 stops extra onto already-stabilised lenses. That's great - every little helps - but it isn't as big a change as going from maual focus to autofocus. It's a difference of degree. Before AF, there was no option but to focus manually. As things stand now, there are plenty of stabilised lenses even before IBIS is introduced by Canon. So it's not as big a change. But I'd certainly enjoy making use of it.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 16, 2020)

David_E said:


> People have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 130 years. I have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 50 years. I take that to be proof that it is not _necessary_, though I recognize that it could be _useful_ for some people—and gratifying for those who fall for every new gimmick that comes along.



First photograph was taken on a layer of bitumen with 8hrs exposure. The rest of advancements in photography wasn't really necessary, although useful, was it?


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## slclick (Jan 16, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> First photograph was taken on a layer of bitumen with 8hrs exposure. The rest of advancements in photography wasn't really necessary, although useful, was it?


Ooh 8 hours! I relish the anticipation! I've done a handful of sun exposed alternative process prints, most around 30 minutes but 8 hours? Everything these days is so immediate and sterile.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jan 16, 2020)

slclick said:


> Ooh 8 hours! I relish the anticipation! I've done a handful of sun exposed alternative process prints, most around 30 minutes but 8 hours? Everything these days is so immediate and sterile.


Btw 8 hours is not a limit even today




__





Michael Kenna (photographer) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## scyrene (Jan 16, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Seems like Canon’s customers have made it pretty clear what we want.



Seems more like everyone has a different idea of what they want, and no matter what Canon produces, people will complain.


----------



## DarkPhalanx (Jan 16, 2020)

scyrene said:


> If I may, there is a slight difference between the introduction of IBIS and AF - and I speak as someone who'd welcome it. IBIS would help lenses without IS quite a lot, maybe giving you 4-5 stops of stabilisation on shorter focal lengths (it's said to be less effective on longer lenses). But it might only add 1-2 stops extra onto already-stabilised lenses. That's great - every little helps - but it isn't as big a change as going from maual focus to autofocus. It's a difference of degree. Before AF, there was no option but to focus manually. As things stand now, there are plenty of stabilised lenses even before IBIS is introduced by Canon. So it's not as big a change. But I'd certainly enjoy making use of it.



While I understand your reply completely, I wasn't comparing the importance of the move from Manual to AF, but merely that it was an improvement in photography as we know it. For someone that uses a tripod in the majority of his photos to say that IBIS isn't important, he's correct....but it isn't important to *HIM*. You and I are in agreement though, in that we'll both enjoy making use of Canon's IBIS when it finally gets here.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 16, 2020)

scyrene said:


> Seems more like everyone has a different idea of what they want, and no matter what Canon produces, people will complain.


IMO there is plenty to complain about. It’s 2020, it’s been obvious for a decade that mirrorless cameras were where the future is headed and we still don’t have a mirrorless body that even comes close to the quality of an EOS 1,5 or even 7 series bodies. I’m sure some people are very happy with the R but I think it’s time we see a true measure of what Canon can do. If the best they can do is the existing R then what have they been doing for the last decade?


----------



## Kjsheldo (Jan 16, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> IMO there is plenty to complain about. It’s 2020, it’s been obvious for a decade that mirrorless cameras were where the future is headed and we still don’t have a mirrorless body that even comes close to the quality of an EOS 1,5 or even 7 series bodies. I’m sure some people are very happy with the R but I think it’s time we see a true measure of what Canon can do. If the best they can do is the existing R then what have they been doing for the last decade?



Totally agree. I don't mind the EOS R and use it regularly. But picking up a 5D, 7D, or 1DX feels like a different manufacturer entirely. The EOS R has some of the same issues that bother me so much about the Sony mirrorless cameras. Sony (and Canon) seem to think that because it's mirrorless, it should be more electronic than tactile. The Panasonic S1 series is heavy, but those feel like real PRO cameras. They are tactile, enjoyable to use, and just feel so good to hold and to change settings and everything else. Fuji is the same way. The EOS R takes some great images, but it's a pain to use. I want their new mirrorless cameras to feel more like their DSLRs, which you can do in a smaller package of course, or like their Cinema EOS cameras (again, just in terms of the feeling of using it). 

Like all of Sonys cameras, the EOS R feels like a glorified toy. The Panasonic S1 and Fuji cameras feel like an artistic tool - like the difference of painting with a digital pen on your iPad vs actually painting with brushes and canvas.


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## tron (Jan 16, 2020)

Kjsheldo said:


> Totally agree. I don't mind the EOS R and use it regularly. But picking up a 5D, 7D, or 1DX feels like a different manufacturer entirely. The EOS R has some of the same issues that bother me so much about the Sony mirrorless cameras. Sony (and Canon) seem to think that because it's mirrorless, it should be more electronic than tactile. The Panasonic S1 series is heavy, but those feel like real PRO cameras. They are tactile, enjoyable to use, and just feel so good to hold and to change settings and everything else. Fuji is the same way. The EOS R takes some great images, but it's a pain to use. I want their new mirrorless cameras to feel more like their DSLRs, which you can do in a smaller package of course, or like their Cinema EOS cameras (again, just in terms of the feeling of using it).
> 
> Like all of Sonys cameras, the EOS R feels like a glorified toy. The Panasonic S1 and Fuji cameras feel like an artistic tool - like the difference of painting with a digital pen on your iPad vs actually painting with brushes and canvas.


It kind of is! I will not get rid of my 5DIV and 5DsR cameras which I like and need. But at the same time it is a glorified toy behind 15-35 2.8L IS 24-70 2.8L IS 70-200 2.8L IS 50 1.2L 85 1.2L etc!


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## Kjsheldo (Jan 17, 2020)

tron said:


> It kind of is! I will not get rid of my 5DIV and 5DsR cameras which I like and need. But at the same time it is a glorified toy behind 15-35 2.8L IS 24-70 2.8L IS 70-200 2.8L IS 50 1.2L 85 1.2L etc!



haha exactly. the lenses are amazing so once they make a professional tool and a cinema EOS camera with the RF Mount, I'll go all in. (The Red Komodo will get there first, it seems).


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## canonnews (Jan 17, 2020)

BillB said:


> As far as I know, Canon has never referred to an upcoming R Mark II. The next medium res camera may be more of a 5D mirrorless than a R Mark II (with a price to match). They do seem to have the technology to make that kind of jump, but I don't think it will happen at the R price point.



I suspect this is more the case.

I think it's just being called a R Mark II right now because Canon hasn't settled on designations/naming yet.

I think we'll see two camera bodies that are the same from the outside and basically differ on sensor.


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## Joules (Jan 17, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I suspect this is more the case.
> 
> I think it's just being called a R Mark II right now because Canon hasn't settled on designations/naming yet.


From a  CR rumor:

"The source claims that the Canon EOS R Mark II is slated to be announced ahead of Photokina in May and will closely mimic the ergonomics of the Canon EOS Rs, which is slated to be the next EOS R body announced in the first quarter of 2020."

I guess you anticipating the same thing means this is a pretty good rumor, apart from the body names. But could you clarify if you mean that the lower resolution RF camera coming is a replacement for the R that has a different name and price point, or if you are suggesting this camera is its own model and a R replacement is coming at a different time?


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## canonnews (Jan 17, 2020)

Joules said:


> From a  CR rumor:
> 
> "The source claims that the Canon EOS R Mark II is slated to be announced ahead of Photokina in May and will closely mimic the ergonomics of the Canon EOS Rs, which is slated to be the next EOS R body announced in the first quarter of 2020."
> 
> I guess you anticipating the same thing means this is a pretty good rumor, apart from the body names. But could you clarify if you mean that the lower resolution RF camera coming is a replacement for the R that has a different name and price point, or if you are suggesting this camera is its own model and a R replacement is coming at a different time?



Long winded answer...

I personally see Canon doing something similar to the 5D and 5Ds. it's a hugely successful line - so why wouldn't Canon do it?

the theory behind my supposition

1) the 1 series RF camera will most likely have 1 series ergonomics. Canon wants pros to seamless migrate from the 1 series EF to the 1 series RF... anything else but the 1 series ergos would be insane.

2) the R does not have anything close to that bridge between prosumer and professional ergonomics. ie: the 7D or the 5D level of ergonomics. buttons, tactile controls, joystick,etc - and is missing core specs - higher end weather sealing, performance, and dual card slots,etc. aka the R is not the 5D for the RF mount.

So there's a gap between the R and a 1 series RF camera. that's where IMO, canon is going to shove this camera that we're calling the R Mark II, and the Rs camera (low and high res). Lower end professional / high end prosumer. aka what the 7D and 5D lines were for the EF mount.

Of course, that's just all a theory and I may be totally wrong, but to be honest with you - I'd be surprised if that's not these two cameras coming up.

neither will be cheap though.

I think we're going to end up by 2022 with something like this:

1 series RF (the 1 series EF)
R5 series (think the 7D and 5D bodies)
R series (think 90D/6D)
RP series (think super rebels T7s, 77D,etc)
R Kiss series (cheaper rebel bodies)

canon has never been a conformist when it comes to its camera segments. They aren't going to match Sony, but slip in between them sideways. where sony will happily sell you an outdated A7 body and call it a cheaper camera, Canon will make a distinct line instead.


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## amorse (Jan 17, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I think we're going to end up by 2022 with something like this:
> 
> 1 series RF (the 1 series EF)
> R5 series (think the 7D and 5D bodies)
> ...


I think you're on the right track - that is very much in line with their past direction, but part of me wonders if they'll make any changes in their approach as they transition to the R series. I can't help but wonder if they'll try to reduce the number of lines they're maintaining in order to increase the frequency of releases or updates, but that could mean somewhat different market positioning for some bodies. For instance, I wonder if you'd see them move the 5D equivalent bodies up market a bit now that there's two full frame bodies below it in the R and RP. 

I think you're right on the R kiss too - it seems like an even lower price R series body could be necessary to get more entry level users to enter the R ecosystem and then gradually move their way up the line. The RP is very price conscious as it is, but no doubt there are a lot of potential buyers where the RP and a lens would be at or beyond the ceiling of what they're willing to pay for a good camera.


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## David_E (Jan 17, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Walk past his house and he'll scream, "GET OFF MY LAWN!"  He's probably still stuck on film what with digital being such a gimmick and all.


Any particular reason for the ad hominem attack?


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## Ozarker (Jan 17, 2020)

David_E said:


> Any particular reason for the ad hominem attack?


I would never ad an attack on hominy. I happen to love it in my menudo. 

BTW: Guys yearning for the good old days remind me of the old men in my youth screaming at the kids on the block to "Get off my lawn!" That's all.


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## Krob78 (Jan 17, 2020)

pj1974 said:


> Aussie greetings Frodo in the fair land of NZ... oops I mean MiddleEarth!
> 
> Below I'll address your response to my message about why the EOS R isn't the camera for me.
> 
> ...


Well said my friend! I have the 7d2, 5d4 and the R. All capable pieces of equipment, but each with their particular nuances. I do find switching between the 5d4 and the 7d2, to be quite instinctive or easier, yet switching to the R after either of the others is still a challenge for me. My 5D4 I can shoot without hesitation, without having to think about where my fingers are going or what changes they are about to make, yet with the R, it's still not intuitive, often wrong buttons are hit and the screen sometimes changes and I find difficulty getting it back to where I needed it. Those are all in part ergonomic issues for me, but also the layout as well. I've captured some great images with my R, and I will say I like it, but it's more of a chore to work with than either of the others... I'll keep all 3 for now.. 

Cheers!

Ken


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## Ozarker (Jan 17, 2020)

canonnews said:


> I think we're going to end up by 2022 with something like this:
> 
> 1 series RF (the 1 series EF)
> R5 series (think the 7D and 5D bodies)
> ...


1 series R
5 series R (5D replacement eventually)
RP (6D Replacement)
Rebels are dead (Replaced by M)
No KISS


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## Drcampbellicu (Jan 17, 2020)

I just don’t see the R as a 5d
It’s a 6d at most
It’s not a professional mirrorless camera like the 5d
The 6d is distinctly prosumer/consumer like the R





CanonFanBoy said:


> 1 series R
> 5 series R (5D replacement eventually)
> RP (6D Replacement)
> Rebels are dead (Replaced by M)
> No KISS


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## avoidingconcrete (Jan 17, 2020)

Quarkcharmed said:


> First photograph was taken on a layer of bitumen with 8hrs exposure. The rest of advancements in photography wasn't really necessary, although useful, was it?



Must have been one sturdy tripod!


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## Ozarker (Jan 17, 2020)

Drcampbellicu said:


> I just don’t see the R as a 5D



I do. It even has the 5D Mark IV Sensor... however, we are talking about a future iteration the OP is referring to. Year 2022. But since you mention it, I could have got the 5D Mark IV. I found, for my use, the R to be the better camera. No AFMA, etc.



Drcampbellicu said:


> It’s a 6d at most



No, that's the RP, which has the 6D sensor.



Drcampbellicu said:


> It’s not a professional mirrorless camera like the 5d



Yes, it is. And that's the great thing about opinions. My best work has been done with the R and RF glass. I'm no pro... but neither is any single camera in the world. A camera, any camera, can be used by a professional. There are no professional cameras.


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## YuengLinger (Jan 17, 2020)

David_E said:


> People have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 130 years. I have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 50 years. I take that to be proof that it is not _necessary_, though I recognize that it could be _useful_ for some people—and gratifying for those who fall for every new gimmick that comes along.



If after 50 years of photography you can say that IBIS is a "gimmick," you are blessed well beyond the average. Steady on!


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## Kjsheldo (Jan 17, 2020)

In the mirrorless lineup, the EOS R is definitely in 6D territory because it used a sensor that the 5D IV used 4 years ago. That's an old sensor and that's how the trickling down of features and capabilities work in camera lineups - the lower end models get the same features/sensors/etc a couple of years after the pro bodies do. 

The EOS R is definitely not a full pro body, but the most expensive consumer model (or prosumer). I think there isn't a doubt that within a year or two, there will be 2 or 3 models above it in the lineup. sensor sizes not withstanding, the lineup looks a bit like this:

EOS R 1Dx (like the 1DX Mark III)
EOS R 5D and 5Ds (like the 5D series)
EOS R and EOS RII (like the 6D and 7D)
EOS RP (like the 90D)

I also hope they add in an S1H, very video oriented model in there as well. Or just make it the EOS R 5D (please, please, please).


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## pj1974 (Jan 18, 2020)

Krob78 said:


> Well said my friend! I have the 7d2, 5d4 and the R. All capable pieces of equipment, but each with their particular nuances. I do find switching between the 5d4 and the 7d2, to be quite instinctive or easier, yet switching to the R after either of the others is still a challenge for me. My 5D4 I can shoot without hesitation, without having to think about where my fingers are going or what changes they are about to make, yet with the R, it's still not intuitive, often wrong buttons are hit and the screen sometimes changes and I find difficulty getting it back to where I needed it. Those are all in part ergonomic issues for me, but also the layout as well. I've captured some great images with my R, and I will say I like it, but it's more of a chore to work with than either of the others... I'll keep all 3 for now..
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Ken



Hi Ken

Thanks for appreciating, and understanding my post. I used many words to describe my experience with the EOS R and my comparisons between it and other camera bodies. But I knew at least someone (and I expect several people) would understand and appreciate exactly what I mean.

Switching between 7D and 5D systems is so smooth - almost seemless (not perfectly of course, because they still are slightly different bodies). But muscle memory works for me across both of them so well, and the EOS R is always going to be quite a different way of operating. It always takes a little while for my mind and muscles to switch over to the EOS M ergonomics, too, naturally - when I use that.

So I don't expect a future EOS R camera (FF Mirrorless) to be exactly the same as say a 5DIV, but it should be much more intuitive than the EOS R currently offers. I look forward to that. 

I'm so glad that you have captured great images with your R - and that you like using it too. I am sure you'll continue to do that - with the R - or any future EOS R bodies, in the future. 

Best wishes,

Paul


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## canonnews (Jan 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> 1 series R
> 5 series R (5D replacement eventually)
> RP (6D Replacement)
> Rebels are dead (Replaced by M)
> No KISS



Nope, way too simple. Canon has stated that they will make cameras (rf mount) under and above "the currently available cameras"

Canon isn't going to just have 3 lines to handle all it's users. you're stating the RF will have no entry level models - that's just not going to happen. a 1K RP is not entry level. they will go under that. Also the name "Kiss" or "Rebel" has been the biggest selling camera line for Canon (if not the industry) - Canon isn't going to just walk away from that.

APS-C is going away, Canon will have to create RF mount entry level to replace it.


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## SteveC (Jan 18, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Nope, way too simple. Canon has stated that they will make cameras (rf mount) under and above "the currently available cameras"
> 
> Canon isn't going to just have 3 lines to handle all it's users. you're stating the RF will have no entry level models - that's just not going to happen. a 1K RP is not entry level. they will go under that. Also the name "Kiss" or "Rebel" has been the biggest selling camera line for Canon (if not the industry) - Canon isn't going to just walk away from that.
> 
> APS-C is going away, Canon will have to create RF mount entry level to replace it.



OK, you seem to be contradicting yourself. They're not going to go away from Kiss/Rebel...those are APS-C cameras. Then you say APS-C is going away.

Personally, I expect that Kiss/Rebel is going to transition to the M mount--but only if Canon provides more/better native EF-M glass. (Meanwhile, the adapter works!) If there's any sort of APS-C version of R, that''s years down the road--and I think Canon doesn't plan to do it. (It would represent them changing their minds.)


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## Drcampbellicu (Jan 18, 2020)

I hear ya
But considering that the current R and RP were using old parts they’re really not replacements for 2019

the R really felt like a 6d mirrorless for 2019
The new R cameras sound like 5D Level replacements for 2020

The lack of 2 card slots amongst many things put the R as a non professional camera. I agree that anyone can take good photos with anything but the current R just doesn’t feel like a canon professional camera.

the new R has me excited though
I’ve got my money saved up. I’m just praying that canon doesn’t disappoint 

QUOTE="CanonFanBoy, post: 809949, member: 374915"]
I do. It even has the 5D Mark IV Sensor... however, we are talking about a future iteration the OP is referring to. Year 2022. But since you mention it, I could have got the 5D Mark IV. I found, for my use, the R to be the better camera. No AFMA, etc.



No, that's the RP, which has the 6D sensor.



Yes, it is. And that's the great thing about opinions. My best work has been done with the R and RF glass. I'm no pro... but neither is any single camera in the world. A camera, any camera, can be used by a professional. There are no professional cameras.
[/QUOTE]


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## canonnews (Jan 18, 2020)

SteveC said:


> OK, you seem to be contradicting yourself. They're not going to go away from Kiss/Rebel...those are APS-C cameras. Then you say APS-C is going away.
> 
> Personally, I expect that Kiss/Rebel is going to transition to the M mount--but only if Canon provides more/better native EF-M glass. (Meanwhile, the adapter works!) If there's any sort of APS-C version of R, that''s years down the road--and I think Canon doesn't plan to do it. (It would represent them changing their minds.)


Kiss/Rebel were around long time before APS-C DSLR's.
the only reason they weren't full frame in the Digital Era was because of cost
IMO, they will most certainly have a Kiss/Rebel RF mount camera - and it will be full frame.


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## Ozarker (Jan 18, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Kiss/Rebel were around long time before APS-C DSLR's.
> the only reason they weren't full frame in the Digital Era was because of cost
> IMO, they will most certainly have a Kiss/Rebel RF mount camera - and it will be full frame.


Except for the fact that it is the low end that is dying out. A $1k FF sounds pretty entry level to me. Time will tell.


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## brad-man (Jan 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Except for the fact that it is the low end that is dying out. A $1k FF sounds pretty entry level to me. Time will tell.


A $799 FF camera at launch will be even more entry level. Since we are prognosticating, I foresee Canon releasing some RF lenses that I will buy. Further, I see a hi-rez R in my future...


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## Kit. (Jan 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I do. It even has the 5D Mark IV Sensor...


Didn't 6D have 5DII sensor?


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## Joules (Jan 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Except for the fact that it is the low end that is dying out. A $1k FF sounds pretty entry level to me. Time will tell.


If Canon really can push the cost of FF well below 1k (And it looks like they already do, based in some RP offerings we saw), that may well save the low end.

The difference between a entry level DSLR with just a 18-55mm kit zoom and a recent flagship smartphone may not be compelling enough for a lot of the low end market.

But the RF and EF-M divide makes total sense if the plan is actually to keep RF exclusively FF but push the prices down enough so that you don't even _need_ an 'Upgrade Path' - You either go small with EF-M (and damn are those things small) or sacrifice some weight for quality with RF.


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## Joules (Jan 18, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Didn't 6D have 5DII sensor?


No. The 6D and 6D II have their own, specific sensors.

They only FF sensor recycling we saw in recent time was with the two current RF mount cameras. The R uses the 5D IV sensor, the RP the 6D II sensor. In both cases they have redesigned micro lenses.


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## canonnews (Jan 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Except for the fact that it is the low end that is dying out. A $1k FF sounds pretty entry level to me. Time will tell.



sales may be sluggish - more than before .. but the M's show that low end can still sell.

and just because sales are slowing, doesn't mean you entirely ignore it either.

also one reason DSLR entry level is slowing down is because of mirrorless - which of course a Rebel RF camera would be.


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## Ozarker (Jan 18, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Didn't 6D have 5DII sensor?


no


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## Kit. (Jan 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> no


Was 6D sensor _worse_ than 5DII sensor?


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## brad-man (Jan 18, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Was 6D sensor _worse_ than 5DII sensor?


6D sensor was slightly better than the 5Dlll sensor.


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## Kit. (Jan 18, 2020)

brad-man said:


> 6D sensor was slightly better than the 5Dlll sensor.


Does that mean that 6D was "slightly better than" 5D series?


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## Joules (Jan 18, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Does that mean that 6D was "slightly better than" 5D series?


To the people who only value low ISo Dynamic Range, yes. To those people, the 90D also is a better than the RP, for instance (90D has better low ISo DR).

Or in my case, it made the 6D II not better _enough_ compared to my 80D to justify the price difference.

But those are just specific subjective aspects. The overall package is what many people base better or worse on.


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## Ozarker (Jan 18, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Was 6D sensor _worse_ than 5DII sensor?


I don't know, but what is the point you are trying to make? There are people I've read that say the images from the 5d II are pretty special. I never had a 5D II. Have you? Or a 6D II? The RP uses the 6D Mark II sensor... not that of the 6D. 6D Mark II released at $2,000. The RP released at $1,299. The 5D Mark IV released at $3,499. The R released at $2,299.

All I know is that my R runs circles around my former 5D mark III which was a helluva camera.


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## Kit. (Jan 18, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I don't know, but what is the point you are trying to make?


A similar sensor in the new camera as one in the old camera does not mean that both cameras have the same positioning on the market.



CanonFanBoy said:


> There are people I've read that say the images from the 5d II are pretty special. I never had a 5D II. Have you?


Yes, and I like the images it produces (except for color banding in shadows; fortunately, I prefer shadows to be shadows and rarely need to "recover" them).


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## tnargs (Jan 18, 2020)

I see the full frame mirrorless offerings like this, in order of price:

Cheapskate/newbie entry level: Canon EOS RP, no Nikon, Sony A7 II old model
Enthusiast entry level: Canon EOS R, Nikon Z6, Sony A7 III
High-res enthusiast: *no Canon*, Nikon Z7, Sony A7 IV
Pro Sports/Action: *no Canon*, no Nikon, Sony A9 II

So if there are 2 new Canons coming, there are 2 obvious gaps. The top priority of these would be the high-res enthusiast model, especially with the new DSLR entering the pro sports segment. The A7R series has been a major success for Sony and attracted many mainstream customers, so Canon would want to address that urgently.

In fact, the new DSLR might mean the second one could be an update to the EOS R, instead of filling the pro sports mirrorless gap. Would love for it to be the sports/mirrorless model, but I reckon the EOS R's weakness at burst speed might be a priority that Canon wants to address quickly. And they seem to be rolling out a new generation of sensors, so that's my tip for the second 2020 release: *EOS R II* with new-gen sensor and higher burst speed and, possibly, IBIS.


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## SteveC (Jan 19, 2020)

canonnews said:


> Kiss/Rebel were around long time before APS-C DSLR's.
> the only reason they weren't full frame in the Digital Era was because of cost
> IMO, they will most certainly have a Kiss/Rebel RF mount camera - and it will be full frame.



I take it, then, you mean that they will continue to use the <i>names</i> "kiss" and "rebel" but the cameras will be quite different (FF mirrorless rather than APSC DSLR).


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## canonnews (Jan 19, 2020)

SteveC said:


> I take it, then, you mean that they will continue to use the <i>names</i> "kiss" and "rebel" but the cameras will be quite different (FF mirrorless rather than APSC DSLR).



well again, Kiss and Rebel were originally full frame film cameras.

I fail to see why they would have to do anything different really.

If anything, I forsee we'll see a return to how the lineup looked in the film days - a really big big big full circle back.

the lineup was really:

Rebel (ended up with multiple Rebels Ti, G, K, T2, XS, etc)
Elan
EOS-3
EOS-1

I could see that migrating to something similar:
Rebel (multiple lines with EOS RP being the super rebel ie: 77D replacement)
EOS R (elan)
EOS 5R (EOS-3)
EOS 1R (EOS-1)

Canon did state they will have RF cameras *under *the RP. so it sounds like this would most likely be the only way to do it.

here's the article btw.









Interview: Canon will make cameras above and below EOS R / EOS RP


The Nikkan Kogyo Shimbun sat down with Canon Executive officer Tsuyoshi Tokura to discuss the decreasing market in camera sales. Tsuyoshi notes that the EOS Kiss M (EOS M50) is very popular, and notes; .. A higher purchase ratio of women in Japan, KissM albeit contributed to the acquisition...



www.canonnews.com


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## Kit. (Jan 19, 2020)

canonnews said:


> the lineup was really:
> 
> Rebel (ended up with multiple Rebels Ti, G, K, T2, XS, etc)
> Elan
> ...


EOS 5000 (for Europe only)
EOS 500 (Rebel/Kiss)
EOS 50 (Elan)
EOS 5
EOS 1


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## Adam Shutter Bug (Jan 19, 2020)

tnargs said:


> I see the full frame mirrorless offerings like this, in order of price:
> 
> Cheapskate/newbie entry level: Canon EOS RP, no Nikon, Sony A7 II old model
> Enthusiast entry level: Canon EOS R, Nikon Z6, Sony A7 III
> ...


I really don’t see this Enthusiast / Pro distinction. A working professional could use any camera, it all depends what photography you do and your output. If all you do is work for newspaper or online then you don’t need a 60mp+ camera. Just like you don’t need a 20fps camera if you do landscape or actually even wildlife. 
Where you could distinguish a model not necessarily being aimed at working professionals is something like a single card slot.


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## slclick (Jan 19, 2020)

Kit. said:


> EOS 5000 (for Europe only)
> EOS 500 (Rebel/Kiss)
> EOS 50 (Elan)
> EOS 5
> EOS 1


I had the EOS 5 and have the EOS 3. The 3 is a tank, much like the 5D series. The EOS 5 and Elans are not much different. The EOS 5 also had a strange layout. Never got used to it.It was also known for bad film loader parts.Stripped out often. My Elan 7 isn't tank built but functions perfectly with eye control as well.


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## tron (Jan 20, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I don't know, but what is the point you are trying to make? There are people I've read that say the images from the 5d II are pretty special. I never had a 5D II. Have you? Or a 6D II? The RP uses the 6D Mark II sensor... not that of the 6D. 6D Mark II released at $2,000. The RP released at $1,299. The 5D Mark IV released at $3,499. The R released at $2,299.
> 
> All I know is that my R runs circles around my former 5D mark III which was a helluva camera.


I had 5DII 5DIII and sold them. Now I have 5DIV 5DsR 7DII and R.
I do not know anything about "special" photos regarding the 5DII.
5DIII was better than 5DII (at low light high iso) and 5DIV is better than 5DIII.
I have not regretted these upgrades.
I will upgrade to 5DV when available and I do not think I will regret it either.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 21, 2020)

IcyBergs said:


> R takes over in the next 5 months!
> 
> R versions of the 5D5 and 5DSR2....what else could they be?



Something Wonderful.


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## TMACIOSZEK (Jan 21, 2020)

One thing I've learned after a couple of years of proposed camera specifications is this... the rumors always over project and the result consistently under delivers. People will most certainly complain for months on end upon initial release and then we'll all once again agree the final product is better than we feared. With that said, I'm less interested in a new R body and more interested in some affordable RF glass like maybe an RF 85mm f/1.4 IS.


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## SUNDOG04 (Jan 22, 2020)

Hoping the new bodies are as good as the Nikon Z6 and Z7. I understand they are not selling well at all but would be my choice if buying new, and not having Canon gear (which I am pleased with). Slow in their release of lenses but the f1.8s are to my liking. However, I am expecting big things from Canon and look forward to future announcement.


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## Joules (Jan 22, 2020)

TMACIOSZEK said:


> One thing I've learned after a couple of years of proposed camera specifications is this... the rumors always over project and the result consistently under delivers.


I don't know, the M6 II and 90D specs were pretty much exactly right in the rumors.


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## TMACIOSZEK (Jan 22, 2020)

Joules said:


> I don't know, the M6 II and 90D specs were pretty much exactly right in the rumors.



Case in point:









These are not the specifications for Canon's upcoming full frame mirrorless camera


Our sources that these specs are total crap, they have nothing to do with Canon's full frame mirrorless (same source that delivered EOS M50 pics




www.canonwatch.com


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## Joules (Jan 22, 2020)

TMACIOSZEK said:


> Case in point:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't read other rumor sites. Stuff rated with CR2 on this site tends to be pretty good.

Also, I was mainly pointing out that saying that rumor sites are _ always_ over projecting is not accurate. Let's not get carried away again. There are no specs here anyway.

What I mainly take away from this rumor here is that Canon is putting a ton of effort into the RF system and this will be an interesting year.


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## TMACIOSZEK (Jan 23, 2020)

Joules said:


> I don't read other rumor sites. Stuff rated with CR2 on this site tends to be pretty good.
> 
> Also, I was mainly pointing out that saying that rumor sites are _ always_ over projecting is not accurate. Let's not get carried away again. There are no specs here anyway.
> 
> What I mainly take away from this rumor here is that Canon is putting a ton of effort into the RF system and this will be an interesting year.



No need to get defensive. I own two R's and have three RF lenses. I'm as eager as anyone to see what's next. And they did mention specs for the mark II on this site.


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## DarkPhalanx (Jan 23, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Does that mean that 6D was "slightly better than" 5D series?




Definitely not...


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> If I'm a working pro and see:
> 
> A flurry of modern spot-on f/1.2 primes come out on RF while my EF 85 f/1.2L II continues to focus like a turtle on downers and my go-to EF 50L continues to be an erratic mess...
> A staple pro tool comes out in the EF 70-200 f/2.8L III IS that turns out to be the same optical formula with just a new paint job and (I think) a front element coating all while the RF 70-200 gets utterly transformed...
> ...



The new coatings are throughout the optical formula, not just the front. It is quite impressive in terms of flare performance compared to the II. Great if you need it for the situations in which you shoot, not much of a thing if you don't.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

Nelu said:


> Not just that; IBIS not only stabilizes the final product (the photo you take) but it also stabilizes what you see in the EVF, which further helps focusing.



So does IS, which is available for both EF and RF cameras.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Proper technique doesn't let you shoot a handheld waterfall or a very dark scene, but IS (in all its forms) helps you do that.
> 
> We can call it lazyness (I do hear you, I don't mean to sound flippant), but one simply can't take a tripod everywhere or add light to every scene. IS helps in many, many ways.
> 
> - A



The question is, how many 1D X users shoot in such scenarios? Or do most of them shoot in scenarios that require faster shutter speeds due to subject motion?


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Something like 90D mirrorless about US$1000?



EOS M6 Mark II


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

brad-man said:


> Miami Beach and South Beach are not the same...



Miami Beach and Miami are not the same, either.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

Optics Patent said:


> Mirrorless is probably like AF or IS. Maybe both. Important leaps that become ubiquitous and essential.
> 
> The profound difference is that for the first time the photographers sees what the sensor is seeing.



Well, except for Live view...


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I would contend it was the first time someone really landed a glove on Canon strictly from the strength of a spec list.
> 
> Sony always had these Ferrari like specs, but the various A7/A9 cameras were easy to dismiss:
> 
> ...



Sounds more like Jaguar than Ferrari...


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Didn't 6D have 5DII sensor?



No.

5D Mark II sensor was 5616 x 3744 pixels

6D sensor was 5472 x 3648 pixels

The 6D also had better DR at high ISO than the 5D Mark II did. By ISO 3200 it was almost a full stop difference.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

brad-man said:


> 6D sensor was slightly better than the 5Dlll sensor.



In terms of DR it was.




In terms of SNR, it was about the equal of the 5D Mark III


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Does that mean that 6D was "slightly better than" 5D series?



No, it just means the difference in resolution between the 20.1 MP 6D and the 23.4 MP 5D Mark III was enough to give the 6D slightly better DR at the expense of lower resolution.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 24, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> No, it just means the difference in resolution between the 20.1 MP 6D and the 23.4 MP 5D Mark III was enough to give the 6D slightly better DR at the expense of lower resolution.


you mean a full stop plus some of DR difference at ISO 6400 due to 20% less megapixels in 6D? alright  admit. you wasn't serious.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 24, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> you mean a full stop plus some of DR difference at ISO 6400 due to 20% less megapixels in 6D? alright  admit. you wasn't serious.



No. That full stop difference is between a 2008 5D Mark II and a 2012 6D. There's a lot of difference in 2008 and 2012 sensors, whether one is talking Canon, Nikon, Pentax, or Sony.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 24, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> No. That full stop difference is between a 2008 5D Mark II and a 2012 6D. There's a lot of difference in 2008 and 2012 sensors, whether one is talking Canon, Nikon, Pentax, or Sony.



Ok. Compare 6D vs 5D III at ISO 6400 then. I owned both. 6D sensor runs circles around 5DIII sensor at high iso.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 25, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Ok. Compare 6D vs 5D III at ISO 6400 then. I owned both. 6D sensor runs circles around 5DIII sensor at high iso.



Never have owned a 6D, but I have no complaints about the 5DIII.

The 5DIV kills the 5DIII and 6D at low ISO DR, which is where DR is most important.




At high ISO, it's more about S/N ratio than DR, at least for me. There's not much difference between any of them there.




Beyond that, the 6D AF system is not much better than the 5D II or 60D. The 5D III AF system is comparable to the 1D X.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 25, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Ok. Compare 6D vs 5D III at ISO 6400 then. I owned both. 6D sensor runs circles around 5DIII sensor at high iso.



Then your 5D Mark III's sensor must have been defective. I got a 7D like that way back when. Everyone else's 7D ran circles around mine at high ISO.


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## Michael Clark (Jan 25, 2020)

TMACIOSZEK said:


> One thing I've learned after a couple of years of proposed camera specifications is this... the rumors always over project and the result consistently under delivers. People will most certainly complain for months on end upon initial release and then we'll all once again agree the final product is better than we feared. With that said, I'm less interested in a new R body and more interested in some affordable RF glass like maybe an RF 85mm f/1.4 IS.



I've found that the rumors themselves don't over project, at least not nearly to the degree that the comments stating, "I'd like this, this, and this (which are currently offered in a $6,000 model) to be included in the rumored model (that is going to sell for $750)."


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## SecureGSM (Jan 25, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> Then your 5D Mark III's sensor must have been defective. I got a 7D like that way back when. Everyone else's 7D ran circles around mine at high ISO.


sorry, in my use cases "a high ISO" is ISO 6400. I do not shoot higher than that. at iso 6400 6D is much better than 5D III


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## Michael Clark (Jan 26, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> sorry, in my use cases "a high ISO" is ISO 6400. I do not shoot higher than that. at iso 6400 6D is much better than 5D III



At iso 6400 *my* 6D is much better than *my* 5D III.

There, fixed it for you.

At DxO, the 6D(s) they tested S/N ratio was not significantly different at high ISO (past ISO 800) from the 5D Mark III(s) they tested.

At ISO 6400 images from my 5D Mark III are perfectly usable for my purposes.
But then again, I don't underexpose by 4-5 stops and then expect to be able to bring the shadows up in post like some folks seem to expect.


Images shot at ISO 6400 with my 5D Mark II were just a little bit over the noise cliff.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 26, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> At iso 6400 *my* 6D is much better than *my* 5D III.
> 
> There, fixed it for you.
> 
> ...



Images shot at ISO 6400 with your 5D Mark II were just a little bit over your noise cliff 
I am uncomfortable with noise levels of 5D III anywhere over ISO 4000. I do not underexpose images, do not push shadows by more that 1/3 stop typically.

lets see:



Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting





Camera ModelLow Light
ISO

Canon EOS 5D Mark II*3123* - no experience.

Canon EOS 5D Mark III*3652* - true to my experience

Canon EOS 6D *4070* - true to my experience

Canon EOS 1D X Mark II*5189* - true to my experience

Canon EOS 5D Mark IV*5011*- true to my experience


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## Michael Clark (Jan 27, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Images shot at ISO 6400 with your 5D Mark II were just a little bit over your noise cliff
> I am uncomfortable with noise levels of 5D III anywhere over ISO 4000. I do not underexpose images, do not push shadows by more that 1/3 stop typically.
> 
> lets see:
> ...



ISO 4000 is one of the +1/3 stop ISO settings and is noisier than ISO 6400. Do some research into how Canon sensors from around 2006 until at least the 80D handles +1/3 stop and -1/3 stop ISo settings.


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