# Unreleased Canon Cinema EOS camera used for 8K capture at WWDC



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jun 4, 2019)

> During yesterday’s WWDC event to introduce the new MacPro, Pro Display XDR and Pro Stand, along with a whole slew of software announcements. It turns out Apple was using an unreleased cinema camera from Canon for 8K capture. The camera was used to capture 4:4:4 ProRes 8K RAW.
> Jonathan Morrison shows us the camera during a live stream from the WWDC event, you can see the camera in action in the video above.
> We’ve mentioned in the past that Canon could be releasing a new Cinema EOS C300 Mark III sometime in 2019 and that there will be an upgrade option to allow the EOS C300 Mark III to capture 8K video for the users that desire the added pixels.
> Canon originally showed off their 8K cinema camera at the Canon EXPO back in 2015. The development process has been a long one and I think we’re going to see Canon enter the 8K fold very soon. Canon was late to the 4K party and have...



Continue reading...


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## CanoKnight (Jun 4, 2019)

Going 8k early is not the answer to being late to 4k.


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## peters (Jun 4, 2019)

CanoKnight said:


> Going 8k early is not the answer to being late to 4k.


They have excellent 4k cinema cameras (like c200 if you are on a budget or c700 and even c700 FF). So I dont know exactly what you miss in the 4k department? 
An upgrade to 8k is totaly realistic and a reasonable way to go for the cinema line.


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## transpo1 (Jun 4, 2019)

CanoKnight said:


> Going 8k early is not the answer to being late to 4k.



They're kind of still "late to 4k" in their stills cameras, with heavily cropped 4k footage  

Still, early 8k *is* the answer to not being late to 8k. 

But what about 6k? Panasonic will like have shipped a 6k FF camera before Canon releases 8k in their Cinema EOS line.

Ahh, Canon- video catch up kings. The saga continues.


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## peters (Jun 4, 2019)

transpo1 said:


> They're kind of still "late to 4k" in their stills cameras, with heavily cropped 4k footage
> 
> Still, early 8k *is* the answer to not being late to 8k.
> 
> ...


True, they realy neglect the 4k market in SLRs. The 1DX II is still totaly superb in this regard. The grading is so easy (basicaly you dont need to apply any), its a charm  But yes, you are correct, besides that the 4k mode in the 5d iv and EOS R is realy incredible bad. The rolling shutter and crop is simply not acceptable :-D

I think a 6k FF SLR camera is in a vastly different market than an 8k Cinema camera. Not only the price (which is likely to be higher by factor 10) but also the entire form factor. It aims at a completely different production enviroment. 
But still, the Panasonic looks promising. The lack of lenses not so much though. Time will tell.


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## goldenhusky (Jun 4, 2019)

For those who value time in their life and do not want to hear a guy repeating the same stuff over and over for 10 minutes please skip the first 10:45 min in that video.


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## unfocused (Jun 4, 2019)

Wait...I thought Canon doesn't innovate and that no one in the video world takes Canon seriously. At least that is what this forum tells me.

Now, for the really important question -- is it EF mount?


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## ArtisanCraft (Jun 4, 2019)

Clearly Canon can do video, but even more clearly, Mac and Canon working together just seems so damn fitting. $$$


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## preppyak (Jun 4, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Wait...*I thought Canon doesn't innovate and that no one in the video world takes Canon seriously.* At least that is what this forum tells me.
> 
> Now, for the really important question -- is it EF mount?


On the DSLR video side, this is absolutely true. Canon is 4-5 years behind competitors in the APS-C space, and at least 2-3 years behind competitors in the full-frame space. In truth, I doubt they'll ever catch Sony or Panasonic in that regard because they dont see their DSLRs and Cine lines as things that should share tech. Whereas Pansonic just made the SH1 to match its Varicam line.

Canon's Cine line on the other hand is great. Expensive, sure, but the C300 was the go-to for a lot of doc and TV work because of the workflow. The C200 is probably saving a lot of one-man band operations a lot of hassle. Its just not reasonable for anyone not making their living off film to own one...unlike say a GH5 or A7s.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jun 4, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Now, for the really important question -- is it EF mount?


The benefit of EF mount is auto-focus and I doubt this is targeted at the AF crowd. I'd expect it to be offered in EF and PL mount but I guess it's possible they'll surprise with an RF mount as well. The greater distance between the PL mount flange depth of 52 mm and the shallow 20mm RF flange might complicate that.

However, I'll be expecting Canon to highlight it as a PL mount to show off their new premium line of PL mount Sumire cinema lenses. Ultimately Canon's cinema line is likely to migrate towards RF and PL. EF is going the way of the dinosaurs and Canon isn't going to keep it around just for cinema when high end operators prefer PL.


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## PureClassA (Jun 4, 2019)

Meanwhile the new MacPro STARTS at $6000.... Oh the monitor? Yeah that's $5000? Need a stand for it? Just a stick? Another $1000. Hilarious... I had hoped to upgrade my MacPro... but nope


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## magarity (Jun 4, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> Meanwhile the new MacPro STARTS at $6000.... Oh the monitor? Yeah that's $5000? Need a stand for it? Just a stick? Another $1000. Hilarious... I had hoped to upgrade my MacPro... but nope


TheVerge figures it will cost about $35K to top it out but that's before GPUs and displays, which should bring it to about $50k.


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## Sean C (Jun 4, 2019)

I thought this was a meme joke at first. Apparently it's not. $999 for a stand?!?!?


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## Sean C (Jun 4, 2019)

magarity said:


> TheVerge figures it will cost about $35K to top it out but that's before GPUs and displays, which should bring it to about $50k.


You'd need to compare that to something like a similarly specced Dell Precision to see whether they're just pricey or completely off the rails.


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## criscokkat (Jun 4, 2019)

Sean C said:


> You'd need to compare that to something like a similarly specced Dell Precision to see whether they're just pricey or completely off the rails.


Believe it or not, the new Apple monitor is "aggressively priced". 

The monitor compares in specs to something like this:
https://www.connection.com/product/sony-30-bvm-x300-4k-oled-master-monitor-black/bvmx300-2/34678119 

It's extremely cheap compared to the competition in it's class. The studios, animation and video production industries spend much more than this on monitors on a regular basis. Expect this to sell well to production companies even when they are not being used on a Mac.


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## Sean C (Jun 4, 2019)

Yeah, the HP dreamcolor monitors are priced like that too. That's why I only snarked at the stand price. I've been picking up 'old, obsolete' screens to adjust color with. (using an HP ZR30w now - super cheap on the second hand market and a full Adobe RGB monitor)


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## PureClassA (Jun 4, 2019)

If you are building a system for Video/Photo editing and rendering, I'm looking now at a high spec MacMini with 6 Core i7. That's $1200. Buy 64GB of Mac Ram from a third party Mac parts store, that's another $500. B&H has the AMD Radeon WX9100 GPU (higher spec than the entry level new MacPro I think) with a case for $1700. MacMini + insane EGPU = about $3400. I'd be interested to see just how comparable that is to an "entry" level MacPro for $6000. Not to mention the fact that the EGPU could then be strapped to any other Mac I own if so needed.


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## peters (Jun 4, 2019)

preppyak said:


> On the DSLR video side, this is absolutely true. Canon is 4-5 years behind competitors in the APS-C space, and at least 2-3 years behind competitors in the full-frame space.


I wouldnt necessaryly agree on that because of the 1dx ii. You are certainly correct when it comes to the 5d iv and R, these are a total disaster for 4k Video work. But the 1dx is awesome. The image quality is excellent (maybe even best SLR until beginning of the year. Panasonic s1 certainly catched up, but they lack the lenses at the moment). Until some month ago it was also the only (nearly) FF 4k SLR with 60fps. Its also offering pretty much the best auto focus video mode. Its used by quite some professional (who didnt switch to the cinema line). Its also the most reliable 4k ff camera when it comes to heat. I am very confident that the next 1dx will top this Performance and will easily be one of the best 4k SLRs on the market, maybe even thr best when you look at the complete package. Panasonic and Sony do offer more features and handy stuff for filmmakers but the 1d line is still a VERY good working video camera with the best lense selection.

Below that, you are totaly right, all the other SLRs from canon are a total disgrace when it comes to 4k and its truely 4-5 years behind the competition.


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## sdz (Jun 4, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> Meanwhile the new MacPro STARTS at $6000.... Oh the monitor? Yeah that's $5000? Need a stand for it? Just a stick? Another $1000. Hilarious... I had hoped to upgrade my MacPro... but nope



A high end WS will be expensive. But a $1K monitor stand insults everyone but a billionaire. Apple should buy Leica.


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## PureClassA (Jun 4, 2019)

The entry level 2013 MacPro for $2999 was great for photographers and even video guys who were doing 1080p and even 4k. If you needed something for 3D graphic rendering and whatnot, you could step up from there. Now it's as if the basic photo and video guys are off the table (full time professional Hollywood grade production houses excluded from this statement). We still have needs beyond what a regular machine can deliver, but we don't need a $6000-$50,000 machine either. I could have committed even if the new MacPro arrived at an entry point of $3999... But $5999 ?!?! It's makes the MacMini decked out with an EGPU far more appealing.


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## PureClassA (Jun 4, 2019)

sdz said:


> A high end WS will be expensive. But a $1K monitor stand insults everyone but a billionaire. Apple should buy Leica.


See my post just above. typed before I saw your reply.


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## PureClassA (Jun 4, 2019)

https://gizmodo.com/is-the-new-mac-pro-worth-the-apple-tax-1835216170 

Thought this was a reasonably balanced take


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## miketcool (Jun 4, 2019)

This is one of the most advanced monitors that you can purchase. It weighs nearly 17lbs. A $1000 stand that effortlessly lets you attach and detach for transport (this is why your Mac Pro can roll), adjust height, and rotate isn't that absurd. The engineering to make this happen without locks, pins, buttons, or notches is impressive. I'm sure there will be a lower cost third party solution by time it releases.

If you want one of the most advanced computing systems available, you pay the premium. The Mac Pro should always be the flagship to which everyone else is measured to. For those who need these specs, the cost is no issue.


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## miketcool (Jun 4, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> The entry level 2013 MacPro for $2999 was great for photographers and even video guys who were doing 1080p and even 4k. If you needed something for 3D graphic rendering and whatnot, you could step up from there. Now it's as if the basic photo and video guys are off the table (full time professional Hollywood grade production houses excluded from this statement). We still have needs beyond what a regular machine can deliver, but we don't need a $6000-$50,000 machine either. I could have committed even if the new MacPro arrived at an entry point of $3999... But $5999 ?!?! It's makes the MacMini decked out with an EGPU far more appealing.



Buy an iMac Pro.

The professionals using this tower are rendering 3D scenes to be composited into feature films, or accessing terabytes of large format photos for commercial use. This is for advanced professional computing that demands expansion and processing multiple workflows simultaneously.

My non-pro 2015 5K iMac handles all my video and photo work fine. When I start coloring 8k files from a multi-camera broadcast television show, I’ll upgrade to a new Mac Pro.


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## transpo1 (Jun 4, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Wait...I thought Canon doesn't innovate and that no one in the video world takes Canon seriously. At least that is what this forum tells me.
> 
> Now, for the really important question -- is it EF mount?



Did you mean innovation = 8k resolution? RED has had this for years.


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## PureClassA (Jun 4, 2019)

miketcool said:


> Buy an iMac Pro.
> 
> The professionals using this tower are rendering 3D scenes to be composited into feature films, or accessing terabytes of large format photos for commercial use. This is for advanced professional computing that demands expansion and processing multiple workflows simultaneously.
> 
> My non-pro 2015 5K iMac handles all my video and photo work fine. When I start coloring 8k files from a multi-camera broadcast television show, I’ll upgrade to a new Mac Pro.


I don't want/need another super monitor. I just wanted a body. Which is why I'd hoped we would see an ENTRY level MacPro with specs similar to an entry level iMacPro minus the $1000 screen. Hence, a base iMacPro without a monitor at $3999 that can be upgraded. Even $4499 .... But no, $5999 is the START point. That's what gets me.

And this is now what I'm thinking about marrying to my 2013 MacPro, (regular 2019) iMac, and MacBook Pro....
(It IS compatible to the 2013 MacPro if use strap it to the Thunderbolt 2/3 apple adapter). This isn't a "gonna buy it tomorrow" thing. But I'm thinking this is my best upgrade option:

https://www.sonnetstore.com/products/egfx-breakaway-box-650-wx9100-bundle


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## gmon750 (Jun 4, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> Meanwhile the new MacPro STARTS at $6000.... Oh the monitor? Yeah that's $5000? Need a stand for it? Just a stick? Another $1000. Hilarious... I had hoped to upgrade my MacPro... but nope



This monitor is not your everyday monitor purchased in a computer store. This is a reference-level monitor that competes with monitors that cost at least $18,000 and beyond. So in reality, this monitor is a bargain in the industry.

Funny that we don't hear from people complaining about the prices of those monitors, but put on an Apple logo, then everyone is an armchair engineering critic.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jun 4, 2019)

I'd say the take-away from WWD should be "Apple recommits to MacOS". Everything else is just gear which will sort itself out. There is a lot of pent up demand for powerful Mac gear. Once Apple is done overcharging the early adopters we might see a mid-range offering. 

Personally I'll wait to see what 3rd party support looks like before I'd consider buying a user configurable Mac. Apple has burned many 3rd party developers over the years so they might be hesitant to even provide MacOS driver support let alone Mac specific hardware. 

It's a very positive development in Macintosh land but we won't know how it shakes out for a few years. If Apple rolls this out and then abandons it in a year or two than I'd say nothing has changed. I've got a perfectly fine 2017 5K iMac so I'll be watching and waiting.


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## ethanz (Jun 4, 2019)

miketcool said:


> This is one of the most advanced monitors that you can purchase. It weighs nearly 17lbs. A $1000 stand that effortlessly lets you attach and detach for transport (this is why your Mac Pro can roll), adjust height, and rotate isn't that absurd. The engineering to make this happen without locks, pins, buttons, or notches is impressive. I'm sure there will be a lower cost third party solution by time it releases.
> 
> If you want one of the most advanced computing systems available, you pay the premium. The Mac Pro should always be the flagship to which everyone else is measured to. For those who need these specs, the cost is no issue.



Yeah this stand isn't just a stand, it looks like it is pretty useful.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jun 4, 2019)

All of the major video camera makers are aiming at the 2020 Olympics. They have been working with NHK in Japan for years. 

NHK skipped over brodcasting 4K and wants to go to 8K for broadcast. Canon will be upgrading broadcast lenses to 8K as well as producing 8K cameras.

I expect that Sony will continue to have the lion's share of the camera business while Canon and Fujii sell the most lenses.

I expect to hear a lot more about 8K in the next year as manufacturers are working hard to get everything in place for 2020.


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## Aussie shooter (Jun 5, 2019)

I would imagine that having 8k in the cinema line would mean that canon will stop limiting the 4k Ability in the stills line of cameras. But then we will just have to put up with everyone who doesn't have the Ability to make use of 8k start complaining about the canon stills cameras not having that.


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## cpreston (Jun 5, 2019)

8K will make for better 4K internal recording and Prores RAW processing. I'm glad they skipped over 6K.


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## swithdrawn (Jun 5, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> We still have needs beyond what a regular machine can deliver, but we don't need a $6000-$50,000 machine either. I could have committed even if the new MacPro arrived at an entry point of $3999... But $5999 ?!?! It's makes the MacMini decked out with an EGPU far more appealing.



Just curious, what are those needs that a regular machine can't deliver? Why not get a mini or MBP with an eGPU? I run a 2018 MBP with an eGPU. I've built PC's for many years including a dual xeon hackintosh that I used as my primary workstation for 8 years. The MBP is by far my favorite machine I've ever used. As a wedding videographer, I'm not the target market for the new Pro and there's no way I would need that power for my work. Wouldn't mind the ProRes accelerator card though...


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## miketcool (Jun 5, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> I don't want/need another super monitor. I just wanted a body. Which is why I'd hoped we would see an ENTRY level MacPro with specs similar to an entry level iMacPro minus the $1000 screen. Hence, a base iMacPro without a monitor at $3999 that can be upgraded. Even $4499 .... But no, $5999 is the START point. That's what gets me.
> 
> And this is now what I'm thinking about marrying to my 2013 MacPro, (regular 2019) iMac, and MacBook Pro....
> (It IS compatible to the 2013 MacPro if use strap it to the Thunderbolt 2/3 apple adapter). This isn't a "gonna buy it tomorrow" thing. But I'm thinking this is my best upgrade option:
> ...



Great, the trash can Mac Pro still has more computing power than you need. Apple makes flagship devices for all their other line ups. The Mac needed to be elevated to where the professionals have been demanding. Now they can keep adding features to Logic and FCP so we can keep making magic.


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## Don Haines (Jun 5, 2019)

Sean C said:


> I thought this was a meme joke at first. Apparently it's not. $999 for a stand?!?!?
> 
> View attachment 184923


But it is a grate stand!


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## PureClassA (Jun 5, 2019)

swithdrawn said:


> Just curious, what are those needs that a regular machine can't deliver? Why not get a mini or MBP with an eGPU? I run a 2018 MBP with an eGPU. I've built PC's for many years including a dual xeon hackintosh that I used as my primary workstation for 8 years. The MBP is by far my favorite machine I've ever used. As a wedding videographer, I'm not the target market for the new Pro and there's no way I would need that power for my work. Wouldn't mind the ProRes accelerator card though...



Thats exactly what Im considering (egpu and mini). I mentioned that in another post. I have a MBP now as well. Regardless of all the discussion, it’s still a rather shocking 100% increase for the entry level compared to 6 years ago.


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## LSXPhotog (Jun 5, 2019)

CanoKnight said:


> Going 8k early is not the answer to being late to 4k.


Why? Isn't being behind what everyone is always crying about? Now they're going to be proactive and it's not enough? LOL


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## kaptainkatsu (Jun 5, 2019)

I know several people who will be preordering the Mac Pro. This thing is aimed directly at production houses and big creative firms who need this power and every second you save rendering or not having to proxy your media is money in the bank. 

I'm sure down the line there might be a low/mid spec version but right now apple is aiming for the top.


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## Ozarker (Jun 5, 2019)

magarity said:


> TheVerge figures it will cost about $35K to top it out but that's before GPUs and displays, which should bring it to about $50k.


Big bucks for sure. However, that won't stop the complainers who'll never even see one, much less buy one.


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## HarryFilm (Jun 5, 2019)

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## HarryFilm (Jun 5, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> I can buy an ABSOLUTE PERFORMANCE WAY-BEYOND-EQUAL system to this Apple Pro for a MUCH CHEAPER amount which has BETTER SPECS, more CPU and GPU horsepower and is FAAAAAAAR more flexible and upgradeable!
> 
> ---
> Dell UltraSharp 32 8K Monitor: UP3218K (7680 by 4320 pixels resolution): $3419 US
> ...



=======


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for these two packages:

AMD EPYC 7601 Server-class CPU
with 32 cores, 64 threads and 128 PCIx lanes for MAXIMUM 
peripheral communications bandwidth: $4300 US


https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-epyc-7601



TYAN Tomcat SX S8026-LE
Single Socket AMD EPYC Server Motherboard
16 DIMM slots supporting up to 2TB DDR4 RAM : $700 US





Motherboards S8026 S8026GM2NR-LE


Motherboards S8026 S8026GM2NR-LE




www.tyan.com





Just add another $5000 US to make into the NEAR-SUPERCOMPUTER class 
of 8K resolution graphics and editing workstations! It BLOWS AWAY any
Apple and Intel combination of hardware in terms of outright processing horsepower!
.
.


----------



## LDS (Jun 5, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> Believe it or not, the new Apple monitor is "aggressively priced".



If you look at Canon reference monitors, for example, they have far more features than the Apple monitor - as they are not designed to work attached to a computer only through a single available port only.

The display itself can be great, I don't doubt it(- yet it's still less versatile than a high-end reference monitor which supports far more use cases - beware of apples to oranges comparisons.


----------



## zonoskar (Jun 5, 2019)

I thought this was about the 8K Canon camera, not the new Apple Mac pro....


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 5, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I would imagine that having 8k in the cinema line would mean that canon will stop limiting the 4k Ability in the stills line of cameras.


I don’t understand that logic, the two are completely unrelated. Any company that makes comparable feature sets in different model lines needs to make a corporate decision on how the mitigate the in house competition. 8k in video cameras has nothing to do with 4K in stills cameras all the time 4K in video cameras is still a thing.


----------



## unfocused (Jun 5, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> I can buy an ABSOLUTE PERFORMANCE WAY-BEYOND-EQUAL system to this Apple Pro for a MUCH CHEAPER amount which has BETTER SPECS, more CPU and GPU horsepower and is FAAAAAAAR more flexible and upgradeable!...
> 
> ...Which system would YOU rather buy ???



You lost me at Corel Draw.


----------



## bgoyette (Jun 5, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> As you can see here EVERYTHING is WORKSTATION CLASS and OBLITERATES the Apple + Intel Solution!
> 
> So for a Windows 10 Professional, AMD Threadripper System with 32 cores and 64 threads and 256 gigabytes of DDR4 System RAM, 16 Terabytes of INTERNAL SSD storage and 64 Terabytes of 6GB per second RAID External Drive Storage
> TWO of the 16 Gigabyte Workstation Class AMD WX9100 GPU's powering a 7680 by 4320 pixels resolution 10-bit HDR 8K monitor, professional-level 2D/3D Paint and Vector graphics creation and pro-level video editing software bundle (I use the Corel products all the time), a high-end, high-resolution gaming keyboard, mouse and headset, a pro-level colour calibration system and an Epson professional wide format colour inkjet printer, ALL protected by a 1900 Watt APC UPS battery-back power protection system FOR ONLY:
> ...



Ha. Ok...so you're comparing your $20k monstrosity with a completely hypothetical $50k apple machine, listing completely different hardware from the ground up. Classic. You got my attention with the monitor, spec'ing something that has "one" feature in common with the apple XDR (8k, sort of) skipping all that ludicrous HDR (XDR) crap, because...who needs that. Not gonna dig too deep into your hole of a cobbled together machine, but it sure looks like you've done the same thing throughout. How bout waiting till apple starts spec'ing their higher end versions of this machine, before you start telling us how much money you can save on your planet. Generally, when we start talking about similarly spec'd animals, the Apple machines are right in there with similar machines from Dell and HP.

Like that monitor. Hearing lots of comparisons to Sony's and Canon's 20-30k reference monitors...not really appropriate, as they are different beasts. This would be more comparable to something from Eizo if they even made an 8k monitor. Their 4k HDR (1000nit, non-reference) is about 6 grand, so you can see apple is...Uh...pretty competitive. (Eizo's reference version, if we believe the apple's nomenclature on the XDR, and want to compare is, $30k+.)


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Jun 5, 2019)

zonoskar said:


> I thought this was about the 8K Canon camera, not the new Apple Mac pro....



Edit: Something about all of it is very fishy. A RED was used for the event according to the cinematographer working on it.


----------



## Architect1776 (Jun 5, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Canon needs to forget 4K now. It is ancient history.
Perhaps all the new mirrorless cameras should be full frame coverage 8K if FF cameras or APSC cameras.
Now that would make sense and be a great step forward.


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 5, 2019)

unfocused said:


> You lost me at Corel Draw.


Adobe is inoperable in Bell helicopters. He has to use Corel.


----------



## mpmark (Jun 5, 2019)

CanoKnight said:


> Going 8k early is not the answer to being late to 4k.



and please tell me what 4K has done to hinder you since canon released it late?


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 5, 2019)

mpmark said:


> and please tell me what 4K has done to hinder you since canon released it late?


That is the core of the question, and entirely too logical.


----------



## mpmark (Jun 5, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> Meanwhile the new MacPro STARTS at $6000.... Oh the monitor? Yeah that's $5000? Need a stand for it? Just a stick? Another $1000. Hilarious... I had hoped to upgrade my MacPro... but nope


Apple thinks people have Money trees in their backyard.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jun 5, 2019)

mpmark said:


> Apple thinks people have Money trees in their backyard.


A lot of people do. I went to dinner last week with a client, the bill for the three tables was over $4,500 and he didn’t think anything of it, it was just a casual ‘let’s go out for dinner’ thing. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in that spending bracket but I work with a heck of a lot of people to whom $4,000 is a dinner budget!


----------



## peters (Jun 5, 2019)

crazyrunner33 said:


> Edit: Something about all of it is very fishy. A RED was used for the event according to the cinematographer working on it.


In the video you can clearly see a Canon Cinema Body


----------



## Ozarker (Jun 6, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> A lot of people do. I went to dinner last week with a client, the bill for the three tables was over $4,500 and he didn’t think anything of it, it was just a casual ‘let’s go out for dinner’ thing. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in that spending bracket but I work with a heck of a lot of people to whom $4,000 is a dinner budget!


The next best thing to being a millionaire is having friends and clients that are millionaires.


----------



## David8476 (Jun 6, 2019)

CanoKnight said:


> Going 8k early is not the answer to being late to 4k.


4k video will be outdated by 2020. Japan will be pushing 8K video for the Olympics and this will be a reality.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 6, 2019)

unfocused said:


> You lost me at Corel Draw.



---

Our company uses Coreldraw EVERYWHERE !!! It is an AMAZING package that comes with everything for vector graphics and general photo editing. AND you pay once and only upgrade when YOU want to. InDesign and Illustrator are DECADES OLD ALSO-RANS for 2D vector graphics compared to Coreldraw 2019 !!! It's Great !!!

BUT ... if you want to KEEP using Adobe products go ahead nothing is stopping you. The system I specified EASILY handles MUCH HIGHER END software such as the TRULY PRO-LEVEL ULTRA HIGH END Discreet Flame or Smoke VFX software, or Dassault Catia CAD/CAM/FEA which is our target applications anyways! You think $20,000+ for hardware is expensive? Try paying for a FULL Catia CAD/CAM/FEA Suite which PER LICENCE going quite a bit past $35,000 US per seat! 
.
I should note though of all the Editing Programs out there I liked the DPS/Leitch Velocity HD THE BEST !!!! NOthing compared to it's POWER AND EASE OF USE !!! Resolve is a close second and Corel Video Studio is for my Quick and Dirty, get-out-the-door-fast jobs!
.


----------



## bgoyette (Jun 6, 2019)

crazyrunner33 said:


> Edit: Something about all of it is very fishy. A RED was used for the event according to the cinematographer working on it.


 I believe the Mac Pro Demo stations were running multiple streams of 8k footage shot in Africa on a Red. There was another demo...possibly 'off-site' that showed a Canon camera on a robot arm with some AI software doing live compositing...You've seen it here on CR.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 6, 2019)

bgoyette said:


> Ha. Ok...so you're comparing your $20k monstrosity with a completely hypothetical $50k apple machine, listing completely different hardware from the ground up. Classic. You got my attention with the monitor, spec'ing something that has "one" feature in common with the apple XDR (8k, sort of) skipping all that ludicrous HDR (XDR) crap, because...who needs that. Not gonna dig too deep into your hole of a cobbled together machine, but it sure looks like you've done the same thing throughout. How bout waiting till apple starts spec'ing their higher end versions of this machine, before you start telling us how much money you can save on your planet. Generally, when we start talking about similarly spec'd animals, the Apple machines are right in there with similar machines from Dell and HP.
> 
> Like that monitor. Hearing lots of comparisons to Sony's and Canon's 20-30k reference monitors...not really appropriate, as they are different beasts. This would be more comparable to something from Eizo if they even made an 8k monitor. Their 4k HDR (1000nit, non-reference) is about 6 grand, so you can see apple is...Uh...pretty competitive. (Eizo's reference version, if we believe the apple's nomenclature on the XDR, and want to compare is, $30k+.)



===

Apple HAS NO HIGHER END MACHINE !!!! This ThreadRipper Single-CPU machine BY ITSELF BLOWS AWAY this NEW Apple!

If I REALLY WANT to make the ULTIMATE KILLER SUPERCOMPUTER, then I put in a Dual CPU AMD EPYC "Rome" chip motherboard with 64 cores and 128 threads for EACH CPU so I now have 128 Cores and 256 Threads. Then I add EIGHT TERABYTES of DDR4 System RAM (each CPU gets 4 Terabytes of RAM).








AMD EPYC Rome Benched: 64 Cores, 128 Threads Boosting to 2.2 GHz (for now)


Several benchmarks of the 64-core 128-thread EPYC Rome processors have popped up in an online database.




www.tomshardware.com





I can then get an DELL/EMC/Isilon Petabyte Array which allows me to put 128 of 
the Seagate 60 terabyte SSD drives for a grand total of 7.68 Petabytes (or 7680 Terabytes) 
of FAST local SSD Storage!








Seagate’s new 60TB SSD is world’s largest


Seagate's 60TB SSD comes a year after Samsung's 15TB SSD.




arstechnica.com






NO APPLE COMPUTER can match ANY of my previously specified systems!

ALL the parts can be ordered off Amazon for delivery in about two weeks AND you can 
EASILY put all this together yourself in about 8 hours worth of assembly time and testing!

I've done LOTS of systems like this and have ALSO done systems that go 
WAAAAAAAAAAAAY BEYOND even these high-end specs!
.

Once I have the parts, and with my custom Windows 10 Pro/Enterprise and Or Windows Server 
install scripts, I can bring up a full working system to these specs in under two hours! (i'm really 
experienced at from-the-ground-up system building though)

This latest Apple Pro is a TOY compared to these Windows Systems! 
They don't even come CLOSE in terms of raw CPU/GPU horsepower, 
storage or peripherals !!!!

---


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 6, 2019)

bgoyette said:


> Ha. Ok...so you're comparing your $20k monstrosity with a completely hypothetical $50k apple machine, listing completely different hardware from the ground up. Classic. You got my attention with the monitor, spec'ing something that has "one" feature in common with the apple XDR (8k, sort of) skipping all that ludicrous HDR (XDR) crap, because...who needs that. Not gonna dig too deep into your hole of a cobbled together machine, but it sure looks like you've done the same thing throughout. How bout waiting till apple starts spec'ing their higher end versions of this machine, before you start telling us how much money you can save on your planet. Generally, when we start talking about similarly spec'd animals, the Apple machines are right in there with similar machines from Dell and HP.
> 
> Like that monitor. Hearing lots of comparisons to Sony's and Canon's 20-30k reference monitors...not really appropriate, as they are different beasts. This would be more comparable to something from Eizo if they even made an 8k monitor. Their 4k HDR (1000nit, non-reference) is about 6 grand, so you can see apple is...Uh...pretty competitive. (Eizo's reference version, if we believe the apple's nomenclature on the XDR, and want to compare is, $30k+.)




---

Actual for under $2500 US, you can get an OUTSTANDING 4K Video and 50 megapixel stills editing monster of a Windows 10 machine that will BLOW AWAY almost any other MAC Pro configured system other than the top-end one with this new 6k monitor!

Try these you-build versions:








The Best Video Editing PC Builds of 2019 - Custom PC Review


Welcome to Custom PC Review's Best Video Editing Computer Builds! Here's where you'll find PC hardware recommendations for putting together a video editing




www.custompcreview.com





CPU AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX Processor (YD299XAZAFWOF) 

Motherboard MSI Gaming MEG X399 Creation 

Memory Kingston Technology HyperX Predator Black 64GB Kit 3000MHz DDR4 CL15 

GPU PNY Quadro P5000 VCQP5000-PB 

Case Corsair Obsidian 750D 

Boot Drive Samsung 970 EVO 2TB – NVMe PCIe M.2 

Storage Drive Barracuda Pro 12Tb 

Optical Drive ASUS Blu-Ray Writer 

PSU EVGA SuperNOVA 850 G3 

CPU Cooler Cooler Master ML360 AIO Cooler TR4 Edition 

Operating System Windows 10 Home 64-Bit

$LESS than 2500 gets you all this decently high end gear which can EASILY handle 4K video and BIG still image files!

For a GOOD 4K display I suggest THIS $560 US one for it's BIG bang for the 4K resolution graphics editing buck:



https://www.amazon.com/BenQ-PD2700U-Professional-Monitor-3840x2160/dp/B07H9XP92N



.
It's all MUCH cheaper than the MAC for what you get!
.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jun 6, 2019)

This time I think Harry is right in general. You can get the very same h/w configuration as Apple's much cheaper. I evaluated it several times for my own PCs. 
The monitors may be a different story, not sure.


----------



## cayenne (Jun 6, 2019)

PureClassA said:


> The entry level 2013 MacPro for $2999 was great for photographers and even video guys who were doing 1080p and even 4k. If you needed something for 3D graphic rendering and whatnot, you could step up from there. Now it's as if the basic photo and video guys are off the table (full time professional Hollywood grade production houses excluded from this statement). We still have needs beyond what a regular machine can deliver, but we don't need a $6000-$50,000 machine either. I could have committed even if the new MacPro arrived at an entry point of $3999... But $5999 ?!?! It's makes the MacMini decked out with an EGPU far more appealing.



You could always do the iMac Pro....?


----------



## cayenne (Jun 6, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> I can buy an ABSOLUTE PERFORMANCE WAY-BEYOND-EQUAL system to this Apple Pro for a MUCH CHEAPER amount which has BETTER SPECS, more CPU and GPU horsepower and is FAAAAAAAR more flexible and upgradeable!
> 
> ---
> Dell UltraSharp 32 inch 8K Monitor: UP3218K (7680 by 4320 pixels resolution): $3419 US
> ...




Well, starting out, the monitor you listed isn't even close to the Apple one.

Dell = 
*Contrast Ratio*
1300:1

Mac 1,000,000:1


I couldn't find the 'nits' on the Dell, but I'm guessing it is far less than 1000 with 1600 peak....


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 6, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Well, starting out, the monitor you listed isn't even close to the Apple one.
> 
> Dell =
> *Contrast Ratio*
> ...



---

You have to take APPLE's specs with a grain of salt. That 1,000,000:1 ratio is a DYNAMICALLY produced contrast ratio rather than true TROUGH to PEAK ratio which you need a waveform monitor to see! Sony did the same thing years ago by specifying NOT the SUSTAINED and PEAK (actual) contrast ratios but rather a pixel-by-pixel calculation that miscalculated actual dynamic range, which is WHY we went to Canon's 4K HDR Reference displays. After our $140,000 purchase of three $34,000 Canon Critical Reference monitors later, we noticed that Sony saw the light and went BACK to their original PEAK and SUSTAINED contrast ratio calculations!

You actually NEED a monochromatic and RGB photodiode system to read sections of the ENTIRE display and read out the values in Volts Trough to Peak on various 2D-XY coordinates within checkerboard patterns of greyscale and RGB swatches displayed on screen so that you can get a TRUE dynamic range calculation. When a display is $34,000 EACH --- you BET we did that evaluation!

That Dell is basically similar to many LG displays so goto the LG website to see the actual values but you're probably correct that it won't be as bright and contrasty as the Apple BUT it WILL be 95% of the way there! AND the Dell is higher resolution at full 8K!

Again, for the price, the Apple is WAAAAAY overpriced compared to Windows Hardware! For someone like me who has probably built 200+ PC systems for personal and corporate use in 25 years, i would say GO the for FLEXIBILITY of the Windows System if you know how to put CPU's, GPU's, motherboards and cables in cases, and go for APPLE if you just want an easy user experience with no installation issues right out of the box!

Right now for the money an AMD Threadripper system is probably your BEST BANG for the buck out there!
$2500 will buy you a BEAST of a 4K+ video and 50 megapixel+ stills editing machine! Can't go wrong with that if you can afford to spend a few hours on fixing the usual Windows 10 install issues which almost always popup on new builds. If you can spare 8 hours on one weekend, go for the custom-built Windows 10 system to save 35% to 60% or more on a system that will actually BE FASTER!
.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 6, 2019)

And getting BACK to the Canon 8K, it definitely in a C300 Mk2/3 body style so i suspect it was a matter of adding silent but ACTIVE cooling, faster DIGIC processors and decent SDI connections to get UHD 8K (i.e. 7680 by 4320 pixels at Broadcast TV 16:9 aspect ratio) video using an APS-C (i.e. Super35) 60 fps 4:2:2 sensor BUT the upcoming Canon Cinema EOS C700 upgrade will have a Full Frame DCI 8K (8192 by 4320 at Hollywood Cinema 1.89:1 aspect ratio) 4:4:4 sensor! 

Unfortunately for Canon, that will NOT be able to compete with a soon-to-be-released 56 mm x 42 mm 4:3 8K (8192 x 6144 px) Medium Format Global Shutter sensor camera that can do 60 fps at up to 4:4:4 AND up to16 bits per colour channel RAW and Compressed Video AND Stills imaging! It will be TOO LITTLE TOO LATE !!!

Pity! Canon was a good company with good lenses!

Now, Canon about to be obliterated by a 2/3rds inch image sensor super-smartphone system on the low-end camera lines and completely destroyed on the high end by a much cheaper, higher image quality MF combined Video/Stills system!

If you don't give customers what they want and SOMEONE ELSE DOES !!! Guess what happens to your marketshare?
.


----------



## csibra (Jun 6, 2019)

transpo1 said:


> They're kind of still "late to 4k" in their stills cameras, with heavily cropped 4k footage


You said: stills cameras. Still cameras don't need any video capability. No 720, no fullhd, no 4k, nothing.


----------



## crazyrunner33 (Jun 6, 2019)

csibra said:


> You said: stills cameras. Still cameras don't need any video capability. No 720, no fullhd, no 4k, nothing.



Your definition of need is different than most. Outside of the instant print cameras, how many still only cameras are there that actually sell? Even the stills focused Hasselblad shoots 4k.


----------



## PureClassA (Jun 6, 2019)

cayenne said:


> You could always do the iMac Pro....?


In another post I mentioned Im not interested in another monitor, nor the iMac’s difficulty to upgrade. I think a lot of folks were expecting the base iMac Pro (the specs) to be the Base MacPro, (similar specs) without a monitor and upgradeable. Even around $4 - $5k tops.


----------



## bgoyette (Jun 6, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> This time I think Harry is right in general. You can get the very same h/w configuration as Apple's much cheaper. I evaluated it several times for my own PCs.
> The monitors may be a different story, not sure.



Glad your happy with a completely different set of components.  The referenced Hypothetical machine included specific hardware and manufacturers pricing for the components. Harry’s machine listed different, lesser components. If you can build the same machine for less, you should give it a try, though!


----------



## bgoyette (Jun 6, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> Actual for under $2500 US, you can get an OUTSTANDING 4K Video and 50 megapixel stills editing monster of a Windows 10 machine that will BLOW AWAY almost any other MAC Pro configured system other than .....
> 
> ...



Your predisposition for all caps, and propensity for footnotes that include amazon notwithstanding. Please put together a build with the same components and I/o contained in the fictitious apple machine. Let’s see how much you save. A general rule in this industry is that if a component costs less, it’s a lesser component. There are too many experts out there for companies making components to charge 3-4x the cost for a component that delivers less performance as your dream build would indicate. Beyond that, Apple’s ability to build, cool, and make portable it’s system is something your system fails to address.


----------



## bgoyette (Jun 6, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> You have to take APPLE's specs with a grain of salt. That 1,000,000:1 ratio is a DYNAMICALLY produced contrast ratio rather than true TROUGH to PEAK ratio which you need a waveform monitor to see! Sony did the same thing years ago by specifying NOT the SUSTAINED and PEAK (actual) contrast ratios but rather a pixel-by-pixel calculation that miscalculated actual dynamic range, which is WHY we went to Canon's 4K HDR Reference displays. After our $140,000 purchase of three $34,000 Canon Critical Reference monitors later, we noticed that Sony saw the light and went BACK to their original PEAK and SUSTAINED contrast ratio calculations!
> 
> ...


Again with the monitor.

The Dell you quoted is a 400nit SDR model that uses the same backlight technology as the 10 year old NEC collecting dust next to me. It is not a reference monitor, it is not HDR. It is not XDR (honestly, Apple is asking for it with this one). There is no LCD panel that is capable of achieving a meaningful level of HDR without doing it dynamically. (Via zoned backlighting). While you may see no benefit to what apple’s done in this screen, you somehow admit to spending many times that cost on multiple Canon monitors that apparently weren’t up to snuff. Seems like a person with your knowledge, and frugal nature... wouldn’t have done that. We’ll need to see and measure apple’s new display when it’s available next fall, but your comparing it to this “whole other animal” Dell monitor made me question your entire argument. As did this little nugget...

“it won't be as bright and contrasty as the Apple BUT it WILL be 95% of the way there!”

400 nits is 25% of the way to 1600 nit

1300:1 brightness is .1% of the way to 1,000,000:1

Look, I’m sure the Dell is a fantastic monitor. But it is not a tool with which one can grade and edit HDR video. Apple has developed a machine capable of doing that at a price that is more than competitive, with or without the stand.


----------



## csibra (Jun 6, 2019)

crazyrunner33 said:


> Your definition of need is different than most. Outside of the instant print cameras, how many still only cameras are there that actually sell? Even the stills focused Hasselblad shoots 4k.


Yes, you're right. But video capability must not be the selling point of a still camera.
By the way, every analogue film camera what sells today are still only


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Jun 6, 2019)

bgoyette said:


> Glad your happy with a completely different set of components.  The referenced Hypothetical machine included specific hardware and manufacturers pricing for the components. Harry’s machine listed different, lesser components. If you can build the same machine for less, you should give it a try, though!


Number of CPU cores and CPU frequency, CPU cache size, CPU model, bus + memory size and frequency, video card, SSD are most important for image processing, you don't need to have those from the very same manufacturers as in Mac but you can have the same specs or better for less.


----------



## bgoyette (Jun 6, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Number of CPU cores and CPU frequency, CPU cache size, CPU model, bus + memory size and frequency, video card, SSD are most important for image processing, you don't need to have those from the very same manufacturers as in Mac but you can have the same specs or better for less.



Sure. Although I don't know how he gets a $19k machine when the RAM alone spec'd in the Verge article is $18k (couldn't find it cheaper). Sure he specs 64gb modules that save him some dough, (but not that much even if he can come up with enough slots to bank the 1.5tb in the verge calculation...but then he goes and specs AMD GPU's that cost a tiny fraction of the just announced, but not priced, AMD Vega II Duo GPU's used as a reference cost. (Those older cards have half the memory and half the bandwidth of the new ones shown in the apple ads). Oh and the Verge article price was for two of the Duo Cards... You see the problem. These aren't the same item. They are lesser components. And less of them. Period.

Regardless, there's a TON of speculation going on in the Verge article, so saying you can build one for less is a fools errand. To go through this exercise when nobody knows what the final specs, hardware, or cost is, is useless, and a home build is not a comparison with any validity. Sure, if you don't include your time, anyone can build a better Mac Pro as long as their desk is big enough to hold all the crap you'll need attached to it. Show me a machine with the same specs from anyone building it for you for profit, with a warranty, and support. And custom aluminum machining. Show me that.


----------



## transpo1 (Jun 6, 2019)

csibra said:


> You said: stills cameras. Still cameras don't need any video capability. No 720, no fullhd, no 4k, nothing.



It's an understatement to say you're in the extreme minority on this.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 6, 2019)

bgoyette said:


> Again with the monitor.
> 
> The Dell you quoted is a 400nit SDR model that uses the same backlight technology as the 10 year old NEC collecting dust next to me. It is not a reference monitor, it is not HDR. It is not XDR (honestly, Apple is asking for it with this one). There is no LCD panel that is capable of achieving a meaningful level of HDR without doing it dynamically. (Via zoned backlighting). While you may see no benefit to what apple’s done in this screen, you somehow admit to spending many times that cost on multiple Canon monitors that apparently weren’t up to snuff. Seems like a person with your knowledge, and frugal nature... wouldn’t have done that. We’ll need to see and measure apple’s new display when it’s available next fall, but your comparing it to this “whole other animal” Dell monitor made me question your entire argument. As did this little nugget...
> 
> ...




---

In terms of actual OVERALL BRIGHTNESS yes the Dell isn't quite there BUT it does have a fairly wide colour gamut compared to others and since it is basically an LG 8K display, I can live with it! The Canon monitors we bought were bought BECAUSE SONY (at the time) did a bit of a runaround by quoting DYNAMICALLY produced contrast ratio when our specific video needs are PEAK and SUSTAINED dynamic range AND adherence to almost the ENTIRE BT.2020 colour space which only the Canon's had at the time.

Like i said earlier, I am NOT the one paying for it! Me personally? Yeah! I would buy the Dell 8K display because NO WAY and NO HOW am I spending $34,000 on JUST ONE SINGLE DISPLAY!!! If I was a millionaire heck yeah! I would buy multiples of those 4K Canon Critical Reference Monitor's in an INSTANT --- I like them MUCH BETTER than the Sony BVM OLED series displays! I can SEE the difference!

BUT for me personally on my own budget? NO WAY! I'm the guy who goes to Visions Electronics Superstore on their Boxing Day sales (December 26) to buy a super-discounted price-leader 4K 10-bit HDR TV to use as my monitor! I DO NOT HAVE $34,000+ to spend on a monitor! The parent company DOES! I don't!

My work machine(s) are quite a bit beyond what is "normal" in terms of even high-end video/stills editing!
i.e. my work, editing/render-farm machine is an actual supercomputer in the $900,000+ range!

i.e. This specific one which is my main render farm computer!








AMD EPYC Clusters - Microway


Leadership HPC Performance Microway Navion™ Clusters with AMD EPYC™ “Milan” Processors Navion Clusters deliver leadership HPC performance. With superior floating point throughput, memory bandwidth, and I/O performance to the x86 competition. Users with compute-intensive applications including...



www.microway.com





AND....The engineers and specialists have MUCH MUCH LARGER COMPUTER SYSTEMS!

...BUT...

My main home machine is a less-than-$2500 AMD Threadripper system (monitors are extra bought over time!) cuz I LIKE HAVING 32 cores and 64 threads running AT HOME! I got the Threadripper CPU itself at a GREAT price cuz of corporate affiliations otherwise the box itself would have been quite a bit more than $2500!

I can render my home videos in background while I'm playing Counterstrike in the foreground AND have my 10 favourite websites open on the 4th monitor AND still talk with my friends on the webcam at GREAT frame rates!
.


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 6, 2019)

bgoyette said:


> Glad your happy with a completely different set of components.  The referenced Hypothetical machine included specific hardware and manufacturers pricing for the components. Harry’s machine listed different, lesser components. If you can build the same machine for less, you should give it a try, though!



--

NONE of my components are LESSER in performance than the APPLE except for the display! Of course I chose the 8K resolution DELL because of it's much cheaper price! A top-end AMD EPYC CPU BLOWS AWAY the INTEL XEON in computation power and since I can put in MULTIPLE GPU cards into the system, my GPU rendering power is TWICE that of the Apple!

The AMD Threadripper CPU is actually faster in single-thread performance because of it's GAMING focus, so I suggest MOST end-users go for the 16-core or 32-core AMD Threadripper chips for general 50 megapixel stills and 4K video editing. You pay less and get more for the money with the AMD vs Intel. Only the ULTRA TOP END $10,000 US Intel Xeon bests EPYC 7601's in multi-threading performance BUT for that price I can get TWO EPYCS and run multiple and variable client jobs on their combined 64 cores and 128 threads!

And when the EPYC "Rome" chips come out this summer, you will get 64 cores and 128 threads on SINGLE CHIP! That means 128 cores and 256 threads on a TWO CPU editing superworkstation! WHAT A BEAST of a machine that will be !!!

That AMD Threadripper machine I specified earlier, is MUCH Cheaper than the Top Specced-Out $50k MAC (by $35,000 US!) AND it simply BLOWS IT AWAY in actual and OUTRIGHT playback/editing/rendering performance!!!
.


----------



## Hernan (Jun 6, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Unfortunately for Canon, that will NOT be able to compete with a soon-to-be-released 56 mm x 42 mm 4:3 8K (8192 x 6144 px) Medium Format Global Shutter sensor camera that can do 60 fps at up to 4:4:4 AND up to16 bits per colour channel RAW and Compressed Video AND Stills imaging! It will be TOO LITTLE TOO LATE !!!



If such a camera would ever be released than we are entering a new era. I had many discussions with my colleagues wondering why nobody is bringing out such a camera. As much as I hope for it, and that would be my absolute dream camera, this is not going to happen. It's not even going to happen with FF (24mmx36mm) any soon. The current top FF MF sensors are 40mm x 54mm and you're talking about 42mm x 56mm, including Global Shutter? The camera you're suggesting would need to have a form factor similar to a medium stills camera like the Hasselblad V1D concept, but with included pro cinema level Video functionality. Well, maybe in 10 years. We can always dream...


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 6, 2019)

bgoyette said:


> Sure. Although I don't know how he gets a $19k machine when the RAM alone spec'd in the Verge article is $18k (couldn't find it cheaper). Sure he specs 64gb modules that save him some dough, (but not that much even if he can come up with enough slots to bank the 1.5tb in the verge calculation...but then he goes and specs AMD GPU's that cost a tiny fraction of the just announced, but not priced, AMD Vega II Duo GPU's used as a reference cost. (Those older cards have half the memory and half the bandwidth of the new ones shown in the apple ads). Oh and the Verge article price was for two of the Duo Cards... You see the problem. These aren't the same item. They are lesser components. And less of them. Period.
> 
> Regardless, there's a TON of speculation going on in the Verge article, so saying you can build one for less is a fools errand. To go through this exercise when nobody knows what the final specs, hardware, or cost is, is useless, and a home build is not a comparison with any validity. Sure, if you don't include your time, anyone can build a better Mac Pro as long as their desk is big enough to hold all the crap you'll need attached to it. Show me a machine with the same specs from anyone building it for you for profit, with a warranty, and support. And custom aluminum machining. Show me that.



---

I don't put 1.5 Terabytes of RAM in the system as I specced only 256 Gigabytes because that's all the AMD Threadripper motherboard supports. 256 Gigabytes of System RAM, 16 Terabytes of INTERNAL SSD storage and 64 Terabytes of External storage SHOULD allow you to edit 4k AND 8k video in realtime!

If you want MORE THAN TWO TERABYTES of system ram, then you have to go with Supermicro or Tyan EPYC server-class motherboards and EPYC 7601 or the newer EPYC ROME cpus which can support up to EIGHT TERABYTES with two cpus. 

My MAIN criteria was can it playback, edit and render 8k video in realtime? YES this system DEFINITELY does do that at $35,000 cheaper. I specced the older AMD GPU's because they are actually available for purchase online BUT in August when the NEWER Vega-2's come out you can upgrade for a mere $5000 to $10000 more which is STILL $20,000+ U.S. cheaper than the MAC!


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 6, 2019)

Hernan said:


> If such a camera would ever be released than we are entering a new era. I had many discussions with my colleagues wondering why nobody is bringing out such a camera. As much as I hope for it, and that would be my absolute dream camera, this is not going to happen. It's not even going to happen with FF (24mmx36mm) any soon. The current top FF MF sensors are 40mm x 54mm and you're talking about 42mm x 56mm, including Global Shutter? The camera you're suggesting would need to have a form factor similar to a medium stills camera like the Hasselblad V1D concept, but with included pro cinema level Video functionality. Well, maybe in 10 years. We can always dream...



---

It's sitting on my desk at this moment ....
.


----------



## Hernan (Jun 6, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> It's sitting on my desk at this moment ....
> .


Well than I'm jealous. Can you share it?


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## TAF (Jun 7, 2019)

So, Canon's 8K camera needs a robotic arm to hold it? And I thought the 1DX was heavy...


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## HarryFilm (Jun 7, 2019)

Hernan said:


> Well than I'm jealous. Can you share it?



"The Vendor" will share it soon enough .... To put it mildly, I'm NOT using the Red Monstro's or Canon C700 FF's anymore on ANY of my video OR stills shoots! No need when you have THIS MUCH TRUE MEDIUM FORMAT STILLS AND VIDEO IMAGING POWER in such a small and relatively inexpensive package! Quality-wise it BLOWS THEM BOTH AWAY !!! No Comparison! PERIOD !!!!

P.S. a set of 2/3rds inch (and larger) image sensor Super-Smartphones and Tablets is coming from the "The Same Vendor" !!!

That will shake up the low-end MILC camera industry! I've seen the drawings and specs on those and the imaging and computational power of BOTH the Phones and Tablets is AMAZING !!! You LITERALLY can have a stills/video imaging supercomputer in your pocket or carry bag!

.


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## Policar (Jun 7, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> And getting BACK to the Canon 8K, it definitely in a C300 Mk2/3 body style so i suspect it was a matter of adding silent but ACTIVE cooling, faster DIGIC processors and decent SDI connections to get UHD 8K (i.e. 7680 by 4320 pixels at Broadcast TV 16:9 aspect ratio) video using an APS-C (i.e. Super35) 60 fps 4:2:2 sensor BUT the upcoming Canon Cinema EOS C700 upgrade will have a Full Frame DCI 8K (8192 by 4320 at Hollywood Cinema 1.89:1 aspect ratio) 4:4:4 sensor!
> 
> Unfortunately for Canon, that will NOT be able to compete with a soon-to-be-released 56 mm x 42 mm 4:3 8K (8192 x 6144 px) Medium Format Global Shutter sensor camera that can do 60 fps at up to 4:4:4 AND up to16 bits per colour channel RAW and Compressed Video AND Stills imaging! It will be TOO LITTLE TOO LATE !!!
> 
> ...



I'm confused. The C300 Mk II already has active cooling, and the fans aren't silent. Do you mean that they're using another kind of active cooling on the Mk III different from the fans on the Mk II? Where did you get this information?

Also, it's my understanding that sensors don't have inherent chroma subsampling specifications, that's a product of the codec. Do you mean that it's a bayer sensor (similar effective color depth to 4:2:2 from what I understand?) in the C300 Mk III and a Foveon-style sensor in the C700? That would be rather shocking given how bad Foveon sensors are with low light, how much more data they generate when compared with oversampling for a similar result, and how poor the color accuracy is. I like the Sigma DP2's image a lot (though neither under tungsten nor under heavy shade–only right at 5600K), and it is a lot sharper per-pixel than any cinema camera. But a cinema camera is literally the last place I'd expect Canon to introduce a Foveon-style sensor, so I assume you mean something else by 4:4:4, but I can't understand what. Or is it Foveon-style but different in some way?

Very interesting information regardless, especially about the 645 camera. I understand if you don't want to further break NDA but I am really curious about it and about the new style of cooling and new sensor. I just bought a C200 but would consider selling it (while it still has value) and my stills camera alike if I could shoot on 645. I almost bought an old 645 Sinar set up on craigslist last month but couldn't afford a back. I'm starting to feel mighty foolish, but my loss is others' gain at least.


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## HarryFilm (Jun 7, 2019)

Policar said:


> I'm confused. The C300 Mk II already has active cooling, and the fans aren't silent. Do you mean that they're using another kind of active cooling on the Mk III different from the fans on the Mk II? Where did you get this information?
> 
> Also, it's my understanding that sensors don't have inherent chroma subsampling specifications, that's a product of the codec. Do you mean that it's a bayer sensor (similar effective color depth to 4:2:2 from what I understand?) in the C300 Mk III and a Foveon-style sensor in the C700? That would be rather shocking given how bad Foveon sensors are with low light, how much more data they generate when compared with oversampling for a similar result, and how poor the color accuracy is. I like the Sigma DP2's image a lot (though neither under tungsten nor under heavy shade–only right at 5600K), and it is a lot sharper per-pixel than any cinema camera. But a cinema camera is literally the last place I'd expect Canon to introduce a Foveon-style sensor, so I assume you mean something else by 4:4:4, but I can't understand what. Or is it Foveon-style but different in some way?
> 
> Very interesting information regardless, especially about the 645 camera. I understand if you don't want to further break NDA but I am really curious about it and about the new style of cooling and new sensor. I just bought a C200 but would consider selling it (while it still has value) and my stills camera alike if I could shoot on 645. I almost bought an old 645 Sinar set up on craigslist last month but couldn't afford a back. I'm starting to feel mighty foolish, but my loss is others' gain at least.




===

From what I understand from my European source, is that the fans are actually larger and lower speed so they are basically nearly silent and are managed literally second-by-second by onboard software similar to how CPU and GPU fans work on desktop computers with their advanced heat management and variable speed fans. There are also heatsinks which have a larger surface area to dissipate heat into a much more highly-engineered convection pattern that is much more efficient than the C300 mk2. Canon learned well from the issues present on the very noisy fan debacle on the old C500 4K cameras!

The C300 mk2 is actually a VERY well engineered camera and in my opinion not that bad at all for operating noise!
BUT when you have a NEW 8K camera that is moving FOUR TIMES the amount of digital data throughout a busy electronics highway, the heat removal business becomes VERY CHALLENGING INDEED !!! Again, they learned well and took their time to model and analyze CPU/DSP/IMAGE SENSOR thermodynamics very extensively!

---

Canon has LONG had 8K and more sensor resolution in APS-H sensor sizes and in APS-C mostly for industrial optics.
Their BIGGEST sensor is a 440 Megapixel monster used in Satellites and Drones (I've seen that one personally at an aerospace industry conference!)

This is NOT NEW technology for Canon, so I am 99.99% percent sure it's the same APS-C Bayer sensor tech running at video-centric 4:2:2 10-bits per colour channel (i.e. 30 bit YCbCr/RGB pixels) with PROBABLY an upgradable Sony Venice-like PAID BIOS upgrade that will unlock 4:4:4 chroma sampling at up to 14 bits per colour channel. I am QUITE sure the Analog-to-Digital Converter chips and DSP (Digital Signal Processing) circuits are 14-bits or MAYBE a full 16-bits wide with a 2-bit overhead used for error diffusion and round-down-to-14-bits purposes! It means the chroma sampling will be USER-SELECTABLE 10-bit, 12-bit and 14-bits per channel at EITHER 4:2:2 Interframe compressed or 4:4:4 fully uncompressed or 2:1 or 3:1 RAW container files. If they put ONLY 8-bit 4:2:0 chroma sampling at 60 fps 8K I would be UTTERLY SURPRISED and VERY DISAPPOINTED !!!

I have a 16-bits per colour channel DCI 8K 60 FPS 4:4:4 Compressed and RAW output MF camera on my desk NOW! If Canon only does 8-bit 4:2:0 8K then Canon is DEAD IN THE WATER !!!

There is NO WAY Canon is putting a Foveon-style Stacked RGB sensor in this new 8K Camera! -- Maybe in the future in OTHER cameras using their own stacked YCbCr/RGB patented sensors!

BUT.....from what I HAVE HEARD on the FINANCIAL ANALYST grapevine, is that it is SONY that wants to BUY all of SIGMA not just for their Foveon image sensor technology but also pretty much all their Stills and Cinema Lens Technology! This means Canon WILL NOT be getting access to Sigma Foveon technology!

So by 4:4:4, I mean that this NEW 8K Canon Camera is PROBABLY coming with up to 14-bits per channel 4:4:4 RAW chroma sampling for high end video. In terms of frame rate, it will DEFINITELY output 60 fps at 4K resolution and probably 30 fps 8K resolution.

---

In terms of the NEW MF format camera, there are some things I can discuss here and they are as follows:

"The Vendor" has a specific series of markets in mind that go beyond cinema and stills, into engineering and security so FLEXIBILITY is built-in right away. I am going make a GENERAL STATEMENT in that the individual photosites are AROUND 6.7 microns in size which compares favourably to the Canon 1Dx Mk2's 6.6 microns photosite size. This means in terms of low light performance, THAT BY BASE SENSOR DESIGN, the NEW MF sensor at full 8192 by 6144 pixels will match and exceed the light gathering power of the 1Dx Mk2.

ALSO......BECAUSE OF SUPERIOR onboard CPU/GPU/DSP processing power AND some enhancements to the dopants used in the CMOS substrates, image sensor sensitivity and noise handling will in the real world be quite a bit better than the 1Dx Mk2. It will be quite close to the Sony A7s2 sensitivity-wise and as good as or better noise-handling-wise as the Nikon D850 which is an OUTSTANDING camera in my opinion! This means we get the DOUBLE PUNCH of high sensitivity and low noise in a TRUE Medium Format Sensor Size! You will easily be able to use this camera in a smoky bar or in a badly lit concert hall and at night for your busy street stills photography AND moonlit video imaging and get good clean images!

And BECAUSE of the combination of LENS-based and In-Body Stabilization, this will be the FIRST medium format mirrorless GLOBAL SHUTTER camera where critical focus won't be that large of an issue! You can use it for Fast Action/Wildlife/Sports up to 60 fps 50.3 megapixel burst rate stills and video imaging at UP TO 60 fps DCI 8K resolution even in handheld mode!

With the right lenses (i.e. at the 50mm, 85 or 135mm focal lengths), your focal plane will NOT HAVE TO BE so thin anymore. You can still have that razor thin focus with super soft bokeh if you still want, BUT you can ALSO HAVE that micro-four-thirds-like wide focus where everything is razor sharp in frame! They have thought of EVERYONE in this new system!

Like I've said earlier, it's coming sooner than you think!
.


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## bgoyette (Jun 7, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> --
> 
> NONE of my components are LESSER in performance than the APPLE except for the display!.



...and the memory (256 gb vs 1.5tb) ...and the video cards (you would need 8 of yours to equal the memory and bandwidth of the 2 Vega II duo cards in the 50k Mac... and your beloved thread ripper board that can only handle 256gb of memory.... and...and..and. 

Look, like you, I have no need for many of the things listed in the fictitious Verge Mac Pro.. but you can’t have it both ways and say you don’t need all that crap, and that your machine still outperforms it, and that your saving 35k, when you’re machine doesn’t remotely match the specs that are associated with the 50k cost of the verge build. 

I could just as well say I can save 49k by buying a Breville Precision Brewer, and 2lbs of Peet’s . Makes me feisty in the morning and that’s all I need. Gets me 95% of the way to feeling like I own a Mac Pro V. IT EATS THE THREADRIPPER FOR BREAKFAST!!






Amazon.com: Breville Precision Brewer Pid Temperature Control Thermal Coffee Maker w/ Pour Over Adapter Kit - BDC455BSS: Gateway


Shop Breville at the Amazon Coffee, Tea, & Espresso store. Free Shipping on eligible items. Everyday low prices, save up to 50%.



www.amazon.com


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## flip314 (Jun 7, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> "The Vendor" will share it soon enough ....



I feel like we've taken another step deeper into the X-Files here.


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## HarryFilm (Jun 7, 2019)

bgoyette said:


> ...and the memory (256 gb vs 1.5tb) ...and the video cards (you would need 8 of yours to equal the memory and bandwidth of the 2 Vega II duo cards in the 50k Mac... and your beloved thread ripper board that can only handle 256gb of memory.... and...and..and.
> 
> Look, like you, I have no need for many of the things listed in the fictitious Verge Mac Pro.. but you can’t have it both ways and say you don’t need all that crap, and that your machine still outperforms it, and that your saving 35k, when you’re machine doesn’t remotely match the specs that are associated with the 50k cost of the verge build.
> 
> ...




OKAY OKAY !!! Then I'll simply change out the motherboard and put in the AMD EPYC 7601's and get up to TWO Terabytes on the single CPU EPYC motherboard That's STILL only another $5500 on top of my original price for the CPU and Motherboard. DDR4 RAM of course is a bit of an issue in that full-speed DDR4 RAM is rather expensive. The LARGEST single DDR stick generally available today is 128 Gigabytes in size and is about $4500 US so you need 16 of them (or about $72,000) to fully populate a modern 16-RAM-slot Tyan or SuperMicro brand Server motherboard to get TWO TERABYTES!

NOW ... One of the companies WE deal with creates extender RAM sticks which are actively controlled and EXTERNALLY POWERED "fake ram stick" that attaches a cable that then goes to an external small motherboard containing nothing but RAM chips (populated usually with the same chips used on CHEAPER 8 gigabyte DDR4 RAM sticks) to increase total memory size. The powered cables EXTEND the RAM slots a few inches (about 15 cm usually) so you can stack vertical motherboards filled with only RAM chips! (we did this all the time in the old days with VMEbus mainframes!) which become something like a modern RAM-Drive (i.e. anyone remember using RAMdrive.sys in MS-DOS in the old days?)

These companies do the same type of RAM extension for more advanced system which can get up to 4-CPU-slot and 8-CPU-slot motherboards that access up to FOUR terabytes of RAM per CPU slot giving you in some cases up to 32 TERABYTES of RAM in a computer case maybe only twice the size of Cooler Master's latest full size computer case offering!

i.e. twice the size of this one which supports very large XL-ATX motherboards at 13.58 x 10.31 inched (34.5 cm x 26.2 cm):


https://eu.coolermaster.com/en/case/case-by-size/stryker/



This means instead of $72,000 for TWO Terabytes of DDR4 ram using the highest speed, most advanced 128 Gigabyte DDR4/ECC RAM sticks around, we are only paying at most $12,500 for the same TWO TERABYTES since the 8 gigabyte sets of chips from Samsung or Micron are only $50 U.S. each. You have to add special controller chips to the RAM chip mobos since these are technically a form of RAMdrive but that's only $100 per controller chip per RAM board.

I specified my earlier system using only 256 Gigabytes since that WILL EASILY WORK for 4k/8k video and 50 megapixel stills playback/editing/rendering tasks. MOST high-end FAST AsRock, Gigabyte, ASI, etc. branded gaming/workstation class motherboards you can buy on Amazon only support up to that amount of RAM!

For TWO terabytes or more you have to spend the real money and goto SuperMicro and Tyan server-class AMD EPYC motherboards or we goto our own in-house custom-board supplier (another subsidiary of the parent company!) who designs full systems to our own specs which is WHY our company is one of the FEW that has MULTIPLE custom-built 64-cpu-slot IBM Power-9 mainframe systems (48 cores each or 3072 cores total per case!) and multiple racks FILLED with many 8-cpu-slot EPYC motherboards for the Design/CAD/CAM/FEA engineers and PhD specialists ...AND... that I get stuck with a cheap hand-me-down 160-cpu Microway cluster for my video editing/rendering! Ohhhh the humanity of it all !!! The even higher-end GaAs supercomputing systems they have, I won't even bother to describe here...

.
P.S. I actually have a Breville (a slightly lower end version there-of!) and that Breville Precision Brewer, and 2lbs of Peet’s is actually QUITE AN EXCELLENT COFFEE system and MANY if not MOST END-USERS would be tickled pink by having my hypothetical super-editing-system AND it's accompanying Breville and Peet's coffee!
.
So I now stand corrected, and must say that it is the EPYC 7601 or EPYC ROME CPU on a SERVER-class TYAN or SuperMicro motherboard version of my price-sensitive super-system with only 256 Gigabytes of RAM BUT the Vega-2 GPU's when they come out in August or so is what will blow away rendering-power-wise the best MAC !!! That means I still have MORE internal (16 terabytes) and external storage (64 terabytes) to make up for the lack of 1.5 terabytes of ram than the highest end MAC has!

---

NOW .... for me personally... using my OWN limited funds, I am able to buy multiple computer parts from Amazon/Ebay to get me a computer case that has an AMD Threadripper with 32 cores/64 threads and 64 gigabytes of system ram (for now but 256 gigs soon enough!), 16 Terabytes of Internal SSD storage and some NAS boxes (32 terabytes of Spinning 7200 RPM drives) which cost me overall about $3500 over a period of a few months as personal funds became available and good deals came up.
GPU's are workstation class TWO Radeon Pro W9100's bought for $250 EACH at a local auction! The monitors are three cheap but 10 bit HDR 2.7k resolution displays bought over some months from eBay and one bought-at-a-Boxing-Say-sale, super-price-leader 42 inch 4K TV and then eventually a close-out-sale-bought 65 inch 4K 240hz TV used for my master gaming/editing monitor(s). If you're smart and can WAIT for bits and pieces to arrive, you can buy yourself a KILLER PLAYBACK/EDITING/RENDERING/GAMING monster of a Windows 10 machine! Today in June 2019, I can get all the above parts in bulk all-at-once for about $2500 US if I buy off Ebay or Amazon but for me it eventually cost around $3500 US over many months!

---

The parent company is RICH and can AFFORD to buy million dollar+ supercomputers. I AM NOT !!!

I made do for a GREAT home computer system by making shrewd purchases on Ebay/Amazon and many close-out sales to get all my computer goods ready for final assembly! It took some time but was WELL worth it !!! This thing IS A BEAST !!! Realtime 4K and 8K video editing is no issue at all! An equivalent MAC system would have been two, three or even FOUR times more expensive!
.
So the moral of this story is, to KEEP your eyes peeled on eBay/Amazon sales AND look at local auctions to find all the parts of a MONSTER 4k/8K video/stills editing system which only requires some time to buy and maybe a weekend to actually put together! YOU CAN DO THIS TOO !!!!!!!
.


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## Round 1 Productions (Jun 7, 2019)

At first, I was really excited about this. The only thing that makes me believe that this is 'old' tech is the guy said they are recording to "Shoguns" as in plural... this isnt any different than a post about Canon 8k that was posted several months ago. I dont need or even want 8k from Canon. I just want a 4k & 2k with a nice bitrate/ codec camera without weird attributes like the C200. With the C200 you have a total shit 4:2:0 8 bit codec along side a RAW codec that most people dont need all the time. It's 2019, for SHIT sake just give us a good 'everyday" 4k 10bit that has 60p capabilities. Im not trying to ask for crazy features here. Ive been a Canon user since well before the C300 Mki but I swear if Canon doesnt take their head out of their ass, I will be switching platforms very soon. We will see when the C300 MKIII comes out. I hope its not a joke like the C300 Mkii was.... just saying.... 

Anyone agree?


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## HarryFilm (Jun 8, 2019)

Round 1 Productions said:


> At first, I was really excited about this. The only thing that makes me believe that this is 'old' tech is the guy said they are recording to "Shoguns" as in plural... this isnt any different than a post about Canon 8k that was posted several months ago. I dont need or even want 8k from Canon. I just want a 4k & 2k with a nice bitrate/ codec camera without weird attributes like the C200. With the C200 you have a total shit 4:2:0 8 bit codec along side a RAW codec that most people dont need all the time. It's 2019, for SHIT sake just give us a good 'everyday" 4k 10bit that has 60p capabilities. Im not trying to ask for crazy features here. Ive been a Canon user since well before the C300 Mki but I swear if Canon doesnt take their head out of their ass, I will be switching platforms very soon. We will see when the C300 MKIII comes out. I hope its not a joke like the C300 Mkii was.... just saying....
> 
> Anyone agree?



---

The C300 mk2 wasn't a total joke as you could always get 12-bit 4:4:4 4K resolution RAW video out of it with some BIOS mods, SDI cable and an external recorder! THAT was walys a monster set of files to edit and colour correct BUT the imagery WAS always FANTASTIC!

BUT .... I can tell you that YOU ARE RIGHT that Canon is DEAD DEAD DEAD if they don't have AT LEAST 10-bit 4:2:2 internal 60 fps and up to 14-bit 4:4:4 RAW 60 fps! They can't compete anymore on ergonomics and ruggedness! Not when the systems I described earlier are coming out pretty soon now!

They BETTER HAVE something good cuz what's coming out from other vendors is MORE THAN just good! It's GREAT !!!!!!!
.


----------



## Hernan (Jun 8, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> From what I understand from my European source, is that the fans are actually larger and lower speed so they are basically nearly silent and are managed literally second-by-second by onboard software similar to how CPU and GPU fans work on desktop computers with their advanced heat management and variable speed fans. There are also heatsinks which have a larger surface area to dissipate heat into a much more highly-engineered convection pattern that is much more efficient than the C300 mk2. Canon learned well from the issues present on the very noisy fan debacle on the old C500 4K cameras!
> 
> ...


This apparently new stills and cinema MF Camera would also need some lenses and given the size of the sensor there aren‘t many choises out there who could cover the image circle: Leica Thalia and Arri Signature Primes but those are extremly expensive and MF, PhaseOne Schneider Kreuznach and Hasselblad H are at least AF. But none of the before mentioned will likely find its way into that camera. So, that‘s another barrier that has to be solved. Not to mention recording options (internally or rhrough anoying cable hassles externally) and ergonomics...


----------



## HarryFilm (Jun 10, 2019)

Hernan said:


> This apparently new stills and cinema MF Camera would also need some lenses and given the size of the sensor there aren‘t many choises out there who could cover the image circle: Leica Thalia and Arri Signature Primes but those are extremly expensive and MF, PhaseOne Schneider Kreuznach and Hasselblad H are at least AF. But none of the before mentioned will likely find its way into that camera. So, that‘s another barrier that has to be solved. Not to mention recording options (internally or rhrough anoying cable hassles externally) and ergonomics...



===

Lenses are ALREADY DONE! I'm using a 35mm, a 50mm, an 85mm, a 135mm and a 200mm --- I DO NOT YET HAVE the 14mm, the 400mm, the 600mm, the 800mm or the 1200mm lenses BUT they ARE ALL COMPLETED and in "The Vendors" hands. I have been informed that the lenses WILL BE COMPETITIVELY PRICED when compared with L-series high end Canon EF Glass which means ON A GENERAL BASIS we are looking at the BELOW BALLPARK FIGURES for a LARGE MF Mount lens series.

VERY GENERAL BALLPARK FIGURES IN U.S. DOLLARS Equivalent to Canon "L" (i.e.Luxury series) lenses. 

These are the FASTEST lenses you can get in almost ANY format! The technology needed to create FAST lenses this LARGE is unfathomable because all these lenses have internal LENS stabilization and can be coupled (or not!) with the in-body stabilization! For larger mounts, it is actually EASIER to create fast prime lenses at the below focal lengths.

$3200 U.S. for the 14mm F/1.4
$2800 U.S. for the 35mm f/1.2
$1900 U.S. for the 50mm f/1.2
$2800 U.S. for the 85mm f/1.4
$3650 U.S. for the 135mm f/1.8
$6300 U.S. for the 200mm f/2
$6900 U.S. for the 400mm f/2
$7200 U.S. for the 600mm f/2.8
$9400 U.S. for the 800mm f/4
$18500 U.S. for the 1200mm f/5.6 (bit of a price jump but they think it will sell!)

Zoom lenses are much more difficult to manufacture so prices are higher. 

a) the 16mm-to-35mm zoom (coming soon after introduction) is 
PROBABLY about $5400 to $6000 U.S. and will be around F2.8 

b) the 70-to-200mm zoom (coming soon after introduction) is 
PROBABLY about $6800 to $8500 U.S. and will be around F2.8. 

I would say that these are DEFINITELY FAAAAAAST zoom lenses at a GREAT price!

There IS a planned 150mm to 650mm zoom lens coming at around F4 to F5.6 set at a ballpark range of about $13000 to $15000 U.S. so prices won't be cheap BUT the lens quality will be premium-level.

There is also a series of planned adapters allowing OTHER large format cinema glass (i.e. Arri/Zeiss/Leica/Cook/etc) to be adapted to this medium format mount (no prices as of yet). AND ... a combined 2x extender/teleconverter with a multi-step user-selectable ND filter system at about $2500. Other focal ranges for PRIME and ZOOM lenses (including servo zooms) will be announced after about a year or so. Tilt Shift, Specialty Macro and Diopters coming as per manufacturer announcements!

These lens series are ALL PREMIUM QUALITY ADVANCED FORMULA SILICA/FLUORITE GLASS element formulae licenced and made in Germany from a major European supplier with lens bodies Assembled and Quality Assured in Japan!
There are currently NO PLANS to quickly introduce a 2nd set of lesser-quality (i.e. lower priced!) Medium Format lens series like what Canon does.
.
I have personal knowledge that there is discussion within the engineering group of using High Refractive Index thin-film sapphire-coated ACRYLIC lens elements to offset the current building costs into a 2nd series of lenses but that PROBABLY won't happen for at least two to three years after introduction! That sort of technology would reduce prices by about on-third to one-half the above values! Since Acrylic has a higher refractive index, the lenses would actually be FASTER and SHARPER corner-to-corner! With the Sapphire (i.e. aluminum oxide!) coating, they would also be quite scratch resistant!
.

Like I have said for a looooooong time, things are NOW getting REEEEEEALLLL interesting !!!
.
Remember! There is ALSO a set of large sensor 2/3rds inch super-smartphones from the SAME vendor that use advanced computational photography melded together with a LARGE image sensor to give YOU, the consumer, an all-in-one device that can be a personal supercomputer AND a GREAT point-and-shoot, highly-sensitive, low-light capable camera!
.
What's NOT to like about all that ???
.


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## AlanF (Jun 10, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> 
> .... If I was a millionaire heck yeah! I would buy multiples of those 4K Canon Critical Reference Monitor's in an INSTANT --- I like them MUCH BETTER than the Sony BVM OLED series displays! I can SEE the difference!.....
> 
> .....BUT for me personally on my own budget? NO WAY! I'm the guy who goes to Visions Electronics Superstore on their Boxing Day sales (December 26) to buy a super-discounted price-leader 4K 10-bit HDR TV to use as my monitor! I DO NOT HAVE $34,000+ to spend on a monitor! The parent company DOES! I don't!.....



Harry, just a year or so ago you were claiming about becoming extremely rich from your codec. I am sad to hear it didn't work out for you.



HarryFilm said:


> ----
> 
> Ironically, I was looking at a Bell 206 today in Langley BC...the seats are too small for me with the 429 had MUCH MORE seat and headroom (rode in it last week!) AND has a fully glass cockpit. Hopefully, I get to put the order in within the next two weeks!


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## scyrene (Jun 10, 2019)

David8476 said:


> 4k video will be outdated by 2020. Japan will be pushing 8K video for the Olympics and this will be a reality.



What does outdated mean in this context? 99.9+% of broadcast content in my country (the UK) is in HD or lower res, not even 4K. That's not going to have changed in the next 6 months. The high-end cutting-edge will doubtless be at the higher resolution - for flagship events like the Olympics. But it'll take a long time to trickle down, if indeed it ever does.


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## HarryFilm (Jun 10, 2019)

The scary part is that the cobody itself will be


AlanF said:


> Harry, just a year or so ago you were claiming about becoming extremely rich from your codec. I am sad to hear it didn't work out for you.



===

Oooh!!!! I can DEFINITELY SAY it worked out QUITE ALRIGHT FOR ME !!!

At this time, technically and legally, I own NOTHING and am still as broke as I was before. ....EXCEPT... that at a certain time in the future I will NOT be so "broke" and will own a significant number of physical and financial assets..... Blind Trust says Thank You and Good Night!
..
Next up after the Bell 429, is an Su-27 Flanker with the T10-20R conversion for long-range supersonic flight AND lessons so I can fly to a Toronto Raptors game in 2.5 hours with an in-air refuel!
.
Then we'll see about getting y'all that electro-magneto-plasmadynamic anti-gravity engine which I will be giving away to the ENTIRE WORLD FOR FREE under the 2019 GNU GPL-3 Open Source licence terms!
.
After THAT, I will see if I can get some of that crusty skin buffed off my big toes .....
.


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## Hernan (Jun 10, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> Lenses are ALREADY DONE! I'm using a 35mm, a 50mm, an 85mm, a 135mm and a 200mm --- I DO NOT YET HAVE the 14mm, the 400mm, the 600mm, the 800mm or the 1200mm lenses BUT they ARE ALL COMPLETED and in "The Vendors" hands. I have been informed that the lenses WILL BE COMPETITIVELY PRICED when compared with L-series high end Canon EF Glass which means ON A GENERAL BASIS we are looking at the BELOW BALLPARK FIGURES for a LARGE MF Mount lens series.
> 
> ...


That sounds truly bold! So bold that I'm either super keen to see it in real life (as I'm just about to buy the Kinefinity Mavo LF Cinecam and keep my Leica SL for stills) or just start to become skeptical. 14mm, 400mm up to 1200mm for MF? Well, when is this camera going to be released? This year, next year or ever?


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## HarryFilm (Jun 10, 2019)

Hernan said:


> That sounds truly bold! So bold that I'm either super keen to see it in real life (as I'm just about to buy the Kinefinity Mavo LF Cinecam and keep my Leica SL for stills) or just start to become skeptical. 14mm, 400mm up to 1200mm for MF? Well, when is this camera going to be released? This year, next year or ever?



===

I don't have input into that part of sales and distribution ... I just do CODECs !!! ...  ;-) But it will be soon enough ....
.
I'm still kinda surprised that I am actually BEING ALLOWED to talk here... we'll see what happens ....
.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 10, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Try paying for a FULL Catia CAD/CAM/FEA Suite which PER LICENCE going quite a bit past $35,000 US per seat!



I’m own the budget for 55 seats of V5 with various floating licenses. Color me skeptical you need FEA and CAM for each seat... or that you even know what it costs.


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## scyrene (Jun 11, 2019)

Hernan said:


> That sounds truly bold! So bold that I'm either super keen to see it in real life (as I'm just about to buy the Kinefinity Mavo LF Cinecam and keep my Leica SL for stills) or just start to become skeptical. 14mm, 400mm up to 1200mm for MF? Well, when is this camera going to be released? This year, next year or ever?



You're only just becoming sceptical??


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## HarryFilm (Jun 12, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> I’m own the budget for 55 seats of V5 with various floating licenses. Color me skeptical you need FEA and CAM for each seat... or that you even know what it costs.



==

We have numerous aerospace, metallurgy, computer and general design engineers .... they require the FULL CATIA toolset for aerospace, automotive, mechanical, etc! And then there is that damn $2000 yearly + 18% yearly module maintenance fee! I think the largest set of tools we bought PER SEAT cost us like $170,000 US each !!!

It could be worse! We use to pay nearly $500,000+ per seat for other systems a decade ago!

AND YES each engineer gets their own CATIA suite and access to THEIR OWN Stratasys 3D-Printer for plastic/resin models output AND there is a series of large-dimension (2400mm by 2400 by 3600 mm) electron beam metal powder sintering machines AND multiple 5-axis CNC hard metal milling machines. 

That's a few million right there! AND then they ALL have access to 8-way AMD EPYC motherboard racks, IBM Power-9 racks, multiple Microway Clusters (I use one of them!) and for the lucky few engineers, they get access to a very very powerful GaAs series of supercomputers in the Top500-class of machines! We have MUCH MORE computing horsepower than ANY OTHER entity in Canada and we rival some of the biggest computing setups in the USA and CHINA !!!!

Technically, I could just simply publicly brag that the 60 GHz GaAs supercomputer and Two Terahertz SIMD/MIMD Array Processor setup is actually the WORLD'S FASTEST SUPERCOMPUTER by a very very very very wide margin UTTERLY OBLITERATING the floating point and integer performance of "Summit" and doing it at 128-bits wide !!!! ..... BUT THAT would be just pedantic of me..... ;-)  

---

Oh well .... I wonder what Canon is going to do now?
.
Hmmmm ... is a Canon one inch sensor chip 4K action cam REALLY going to be enough to halt the slide-over to Sony/Fuji/Pentax and dare I say it Apple or Samsung?
.
We shall see soon enough !!!
.


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## HarryFilm (Jun 12, 2019)

scyrene said:


> You're only just becoming sceptical??



We shall see soon enough .... You COULD ALSO CONTACT your local Soothsayer OR a Crystal Ball Reader OR a Palm and Tarot Card Reader to pontificate upon my statements! They might be able to tap into the spiritual ether to give you a better handle on what's coming out REAL SOON NOW from VARIOUS major manufacturers!

DO remember my 1-in-200 hit rate for product rumours and predictions (i.e. I got the C700 right!)

Again, we shall see what happens .....
.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 12, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> We have numerous aerospace, metallurgy, computer and general design engineers .... they require the FULL CATIA toolset for aerospace, automotive, mechanical, etc!



Pop quiz: you open a new assembly but none of the parts are loaded. What are you seeing? Now, you decide you don’t like that and want them to load upon opening the assembly. What menu click do you choose?


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## HarryFilm (Jun 12, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Pop quiz: you open a new assembly but none of the parts are loaded. What are you seeing? Now, you decide you don’t like that and want them to load upon opening the assembly. What menu click do you choose?



---

I'm not sure I understand your question? Do you want me to back to the Parts and XYZ Plane Viewpoints Tree? or to the User Workbenches into Drafting or Assembly/Design workbench? I'm not the product designer NOR am I a licenced mechanical, civil or aerospace structures engineer! Ya know? I kinda sorta hafta get an actual ENGINEER to do that!

I personally like to use Corel Draw in 2D and extrude planar X, Y and Z drawings into true 3D using multiple video-oriented animation programs which I can boolean merge and sculpt to get my final designs AND THEN export out into a number of 3D object formats for import into anything from CATIA to MAYA to AutoCAD to Lightwave. I'm in VIDEO PRODUCTION and Graphics Programming! aka CODEC development! ...BUT... that said, I have hand-built the odd rather large aerial camera drone or ten! 

The only reason I would have to talk to ANY of the engineers other than for finding out technical details for a given product or project, is to get a bitmap PNG or BMP format rendering or capture a real-time view from the screen (using a normal broadcast camera set to clearscan and zoomed-into the high-rez display!) as they move their models/products about on-screen and manipulate them. (i.e. for cutaways or exploded parts view purposes)
.

Now what was that about Canon introducing a one inch image sensor non-fish-eye-lens 60 fps 4K action cam?

Am I on track for a MASSIVE high score of 2 out of 200 predictions/rumours being correct?
.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 12, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> ---
> I'm not sure I understand your question?



Exactly 



HarryFilm said:


> Am I on track for a MASSIVE high score of 2 out of 200 predictions/rumours being correct?.



Haha, accuracy by volume?


[and incidentally you’re seeing CGR files and you disable the cache system so that assemblies load in design mode rather than visualization mode]


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## HarryFilm (Jun 12, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> Exactly
> 
> 
> 
> ...



---

Again, I am NOT a licenced engineer, so my dealings with the CATIA designers are limited/restricted to things dealing with Video Production and Imaging Systems development OR for general scientific inquiry!

At this worksite, my usual practice is to "film" the screens of the designers/engineers AS they are manipulating the models and capture exploded-view maps or cutaway-drawing versions of a particular data set. Everything from a TurboJet/RamJet/ScramJet/Rocket engine/motor to an aerospace hull to a wing structure to an interior cockpit or control system view. We're using AMD WX9100's mostly so realtime views are not an issue.

The FEA and CFD is actually a custom system run on supercomputers which does BOTH dataset output AND actual video renders for visualization. The designers use the CATIA modules only for preliminary results and to confirm EXPECTED results from the supers.
.
You would be quite surprised at what's flying out from this site.... !!!!

.

i.e. Look 135,000 ft to 300,000 ft to ISS feet STRAIGHT UP !!!

.

AND SOOON I will be batting 3/201 of media company predictions/rumour mill confirmations !!!!
.
I AM ON A ROLL HERE !!!!!!!!
.


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## Kit. (Jun 12, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> Ohhhh the humanity of it all !!! The even higher-end GaAs supercomputing systems they have, I won't even bother to describe here...


As far as I can remember, the only GaAs supercomputer actually produced was Cray-3, which had an order of magnitude less GFLOPs performance than my phone's GPU has.

But keep dreaming.

(I used to work with GaAs in Alferov's lab at about that time. GaAS is absolutely unsuitable for making modern CPUs or GPUs. No wonder Cray went bankrupt after Cray-3)


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## HarryFilm (Jun 12, 2019)

Kit. said:


> As far as I can remember, the only GaAs supercomputer actually produced was Cray-3, which had an order of magnitude less GFLOPs performance than my phone's GPU has.
> 
> But keep dreaming.
> 
> (I used to work with GaAs in Alferov's lab at about that time. GaAS is absolutely unsuitable for making modern CPUs or GPUs. No wonder Cray went bankrupt after Cray-3)



---

To put it in as simple terms as you can understand, the Crays ALL had Gallium Arsenide in their chipsets BUT UNLIKE TODAY, the original Seymour Cray-started company DID NOT HAVE seven nanometre ion beam or electron beam etching machines we have! Now we etch NORMAL CMOS-style CISC (Complex Instruction Set Computing) circuit pathways onto Gallium Arsenide (and Gallium Nitride too !!!!) substrates! AND while Seymour Cray had to cool his system with Liquid Nitrogen/Liquid Helium supercooling which is INCREDIBLE EXPENSIVE to do! We don't! Today? Your smartphone has
more processing power than even the largest Cray supercomputer of 1985!

Gallium Arsenide NEEDS high power (higher voltage and amperage) so the circuit pathways are WIDER (usually 300 to 400 nanometres wide) so the chips are physically MUCH MUCH LARGER !!! And that not-in-my-realm-of-understanding Metallization/Contact interface issues was always the largest issue with GaAs! Using gold metallurgy is a BIG contact problem issue while going BACK to the old days of aluminum has allowed the engineers to make WORKABLE and ACTUAL GaAs Digital Logic cicuits EQUIVALENT to a CMOS substrate CISC chip!

This also means by having wider line traces and aluminum doping/contact surfaces, we can bump up the frequency without causing too much RF/EMF induction or propogation issues and RFI/EMI noise-related issues or electron tunneling issues that modern CMOS circuits are bumping into. If one uses substrate-based cooling where microchannels of a non-cavitating, low-meniscus-forming cooling fluid (that also don't react with the substrate metallurgy/dopants!) are circulated IN-BETWEEN and UNDERNEATH the main line traces, we can run circuits as high as TWO TERAHERTZ !!!

The ceramic encased chips themselves simply use low-cost high purity Mineral Oil immersion baths and COTS (Common Off The Shelf) condenser technology for general heat removal, which means it's relatively CHEAP to run! AND since BC Hydro is only 9 to 12 cents per kilowatt hour if you buy electricity in bulk and at yearly contract prices, the running costs are almost irrelevant!

For the main 128-bits wide combined CISC-based CPU/GPU/DSP super-server chip, we run the chip at a 60 GHz clock frequency giving us a sustained 475 TeraFLOPS. For the Convolution Filter-oriented external Array/Vector Processor chip which uses SIMD/MIMD processing styles allowing ONE single command to start the simultaneous simple math and convolution filter processing of blocks of data that are arranged in a 2D-XY array of 65,536 by 65,536 8-bit Boolean State (YES/NO/MAYBE/POSSIBLY NO/POSSIBLY YES/etc and up-to 128-bits wide Signed/UnSigned Integer, Fixed Point and Floating Point numeric array elements (i.e. the SquareOf( 2^16 ) ), it means I can process 4 BILLION array items ALL AT ONCE using a single command.

This is VERY HANDY for things such as Hi-Pass and Lo-Pass filters, 2D-XY SOBEL edge detection, bitwise types of AND-OR-XOR-NOT-SHIFT LEFT-SHIFT-RIGHT-SPIN-FLIP-INVERT-CLIP LEFT-CLIP RIGHT-SET SPECIFIED BITS-REVERSE BITS operations and other MASSIVELY PARALLEL simple math-specific operations against BIG numeric datasets.

This also means I can processing GIGANTIC blocks of geographic information system (GIS) and mapping-oriented bitmap-based data (i.e. a much bigger and higher resolution version of Google Maps!) in mere microseconds rather than try and use some linearly processing Intel XEON or AMD EPYC server chip that can only process 512 bits of data per runtime instruction WHILE I can do 4 BILLION+ 128-bits wide numbers in one instruction cycle!

AND .... When we network all these chips together using a custom dense-wave fibre optics based networking system to attach ALL chips together (the optical networking part is BUILT-INTO the chip itself!) into "Symmetric Processing Array Groups", it means we have a 119 ExaFLOPS SUSTAINED 128-bits wide supercomputer that BLOWS AWAY the U.S.-based SUMMIT supercomputer and ALL THE OTHER Top-500 systems COMBINED !!!!! AND it all fits in a physical area the same cubic size as a typical high school basketball court or gym!

AND FINALLY !!! All those WEIGHTED Extended-Boolean-State logic circuits ALSO allow us to run the world's MOST SOPHISTICATED and the LARGEST molecular/electro-chemical simulation of human neuro-connective tissue in the world allowing, for the FIRST TIME, to have a general purpose Whole Brain Emulation system that at this very moment is learning just like a child, teenager and PhD-level human does! Via Simple Trial and Error and intrinsic connective-association learning (i.e. via teaching 24/7/365 by multiple simultaneous instructors) gets us to 160 IQ and above super-intelligence which can do ANYTHING YOU CAN DO AND MUCH MUCH MORE !!!!!
.

Here is the Math:

64k by 64k array block = 4,294,967,296 array elements
(of 128-bits wide each Int/FP/FXP/Boolean/Pixel) using a 9x9 convolution filter

= around 10 microsecond response time per SIMD instruction = 100,000 available blocks of time in one second =

= 429,496,729,600,000 array elements processed per second or about 429.5 Trillion FILTER Operations per second!

if you want to include the 9x9 convolution filter that is 81 addition operations (i.e. the kernel part)
plus 81 multiplication operations (i.e. the weighting part) and a final range limit comparison
(i.e. 2 compare operations) and 2 final clipping or rounding operations and a possible 16 final
division/multiplication/addition/substraction/root/square operations for rectification and
setting of up-to-16-local register results for EACH total filter operation (i.e. the setting of
up-to-16 colour/alpha/metadata pixel channel values) so that is a total of 182 math operations
in each convolution filter!

That means in ACTUAL PetaFLOPS we are looking at 78,168,404,787,200,000 128-bits
wide math operations or 78.16 PetaFLOPS in ONE single array/vector processor chip!

AND since we have MANY of these chips in multiple racks (around 1400 chips so far
with some held in reserve) we are looking at around 119 ExaFLOPS sustained!
SO YUP it really IS the world's FASTEST supercomputer by MANY MANY TIMES !!!!

Note: The 119 ExaFLOPS is dependent on clock speed which can actually exceed 
TWO THz but normally runs a tad under that! The Minimum horsepower reading
is around 109 ExaFLOPS up to 1.5x that (163 ExaFLOPS peak) when running at 
higher clock speeds and faster cooling rates! The sustained 119 reading is for 
128-bits wide Floating Point number calculation benchmarks!

.
Does THAT WORK as an explanation for you?
.
P.S. This company has a LOT MORE RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT MONEY than Seymour Cray ever had!
.


And Will Canon, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Pentax EVER put this into one of their cameras?

WE SHALL SEE SOON ENOUGH !!!!!!!!!!
.
(Edit: fixed my bad math --- oops! Good thing the A.I is a LOT smarter than I am!)
.


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## 3kramd5 (Jun 13, 2019)

“And Will Canon, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Pentax EVER put this into one of their cameras?”


No. Silicon is cheap and reliable. GaAs and GaN are expensive and particularly the latter is troublesome. It heats almost instantly and remains at high theta JC throughout the use, especially with a processing duty cycle. Making a body a little bigger to package multiple processors would be more serviceable, more reliable, and carry a significantly lower cost of ownership.


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## HarryFilm (Jun 13, 2019)

3kramd5 said:


> “And Will Canon, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Pentax EVER put this into one of their cameras?”
> 
> 
> No. Silicon is cheap and reliable. GaAs and GaN are expensive and particularly the latter is troublesome. It heats almost instantly and remains at high theta JC throughout the use, especially with a processing duty cycle. Making a body a little bigger to package multiple processors would be more serviceable, more reliable, and carry a significantly lower cost of ownership.



===

That was just a Rhetorical question!

The chips are 200 mm by 200 mm in size! You would need a BIG camera to fit a chip THAT size inside of it! Remember! Line traces are 280 nm up to 400 nm wide! Those are BIG circuit traces with high current/voltage producing LOTS of heat! Think of it this way. It's basically all very similar to a 1990's era 80486 CPU chip scaled up to 128-bits wide and run at 60 GHz AND a 1980's era 80387 math/fpu co-processor scaled up to 128-bits wide and run at 2 THz! Pretty much what was done here is to use a simplistic 80's/90's era cpu/fpu circuit layout style but run MUCH FASTER on GaAs and GaN !!!

No fancy hyperthreading, or multi-branching/out-of-order execution or super-pipelining or auto-throttling circuitry! Just PURE CPU/GPU/DSP blocks that do only THREE things! Crunch oodles of numbers, pixels and strings of text in symmetry and in parallel! That's it! Nothin' else fancy was added!

And THAT is also why they have to intersperse line traces with, and embed an under/over-substrate micro-channel-based cooling system. It's a LOT of heat being produced at those ultra high clock rates. I'm not all privy as to what the Engineers do for thermal management and external/internal RFI/EMI and RF/EM emissions and induction management BUT I do know they run FAST (2 THZ for the Array processor chip) and 60 GHz for the CISC like combined CPU/GPU/DSP server chips.

I ALSO DO KNOW they did finally figure out the issues with Gold contact/metalization metallurgy (they use Aluminum!) and contamination of the substrate and/or dopants by the microchannel cooling fluid. Something to do with Sulfur doping was also done but I'm NOT an actual CPU designer so I cannot say what that specifically was ...BUT... I should note that I do some personal dabbling with compiling C++ to VHDL (Virtual Hardware Description Language) files that EVENTUALLY END UP being pretty decent CPU/GPU/DSP chips in CMOS at least! That means I have TINY bit of knowledge of actual CPU/GPU/DSP development since I'm a darn good graphics programmer that can force a C++ compiler to output decent VHDL code for final Tape-Out!

So .... I DO SAY that it's kinda hard to argue with the earlier stated point that NO CISC chip can be made of GaAs, when we have 1400 Sixty Gigahertz general purposed CISC-based combined CPU/GPU/DSP chips and 1400 Two Terahertz Array Processor chips that are stacked and running in a warehouse the size of a high school gym ALL running an overall simulation of molecular/electro-chemical interactions within an emulation of medically observed human neural structure! Ergo, a WHOLE BRAIN EMULATION which gives rise to a snarky multi-lingual 160+ IQ deep learning scientist who has been tasked to find the BASE understructure and underpinnings of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics/Chromodynamics allowing us mere humans to figure out WHAT is the specific basis-of, and how to actually CONTROL, observe and enable viable/continuous high-bit-count quantum entanglement that can be actually OBSERVED, RECORDED and RESET at our higher molecular level without any random decoherence of ANY of the bits!

SOME OF YOU SHOULD now understand the ramifications of that sort of scientific/engineering discovery!
.
Those of you IN-THE-KNOW understand of what I speak! And "This Company" will become the biggest in the world after it monetizes THAT ability in an inexpensive commercial-level and consumer form factor!
.
For me? I will stick to my CODEC development! It's paid off for me quite well enough!
.


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## HarryFilm (Jun 13, 2019)

.....And what is Canon doing these days about SPEEDING UP image processing on their cameras so people can get 60 fps 4K video or 50 megapixel stills at 10-bit HDR colour ???
.
Bueller? Beuller? Bueller?
.


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## Kit. (Jun 13, 2019)

HarryFilm said:


> To put it in as simple terms as you can understand,


To put it in as simple terms as you can understand: a GaAs "pathway" is only 3 times as fast as a Si "pathway" of the same size.



HarryFilm said:


> The chips are 200 mm by 200 mm in size!


The maximum GaAs wafer diameter actually available on the market is 4".

But keep dreaming.


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## HarryFilm (Jun 13, 2019)

Kit. said:


> To put it in as simple terms as you can understand: a GaAs "pathway" is only 3 times as fast as a Si "pathway" of the same size.
> 
> 
> The maximum GaAs wafer diameter actually available on the market is 4".
> ...



---

Somewhere below the speed of light is the intrinsic limit to electrical conductivity (i.e. some atomic level energy transfer function in a physics lecture which I can no longer remember!) Obviously you know something about electrical engineering way beyond my level, but a waveform is a waveform is a waveform!

It has a peak, a crossover point and a trough! The amplitude (Y-axis) and horizontal spacing (X-axis) between those is the definer of a logical ON or OFF. A given clock speed is only an indicator of how many of those peaks and troughs I am counting in a second to form a SERIES of bits which are concatenated to form a user-definable set of bytes and then aggregated into commands and data values. Ergo, the higher the clock rate the more commands/data I can fit (minus ECC/CRC/etc.) in that time period. A Two Terahertz clock speed is NOWHERE NEAR the limit of energy transfer within an electrical conductor which forms the basis of a waveform. The only issue is inherent noise floor which makes it tricky to figure out where "bitwise packets" begin and end, the higher the frequency you go! It's a processing of creating high purity traces that don't block as much energy transfer OR allow a more discernable series of "pulses" to be passed around.

Again, I'm NOT an electrical engineer so I don't know much at the truly low-hardware-level of HOW they do that sort of DSP to be able to discern and cleanup an electrical signal that has 60 Billion and Two Trillion pulses a second! THAT is a level of electrical hardware engineering that is TRULY WORLD CLASS !!!!!!!!!

This company has THEIR OWN wafer making capability in BOTH CMOS and GaAs and GaN. It's 200mm by 200mm chips!
I see them every day! TOO BAD SO SAD !!! They ABSOLUTELY HAVE the Quality Assurance technology to ENSURE line trace integrity and doping quality over that large of a substrate! I should note that to etch a chip that size on an Ion beam/Electron Beam etcher is a SLOOOOOW process which is WHY only 1400 of each type of chip has been made! Think of etching rates that says it takes OVER A MONTH to make each chip! Think of how much it costs to buy enough etchers to take over one year to make a mere 2400 chips. I think they actually BOUGHT the entire company so they could force all etcher production to be sent to the parent company! Hint: It's a lot of money! Think of the automated and customized optical scanning technology they had to buy to do quality assurance on that large of a wafer!

In research labs, I've seen researchers that are doing 600 mm wafers in CMOS now! GaAs and GaN is not that far behind at that 600mm size! You've been living in a cocoon! You probably subscribe to Electronic Design and Microwaves & RF magazines !!! Goto some of the symposiums listed therein! It's here NOW! 80 GHZ and 100 GHz is nothing these days! Two Terahertz is starting to mature out of the labs and 4 THz is coming online soon! Go fully opto-electronic and we are into Petahertz+ ranges! This is NOT NEW NEWS !!! Read up on it!

And I should note the designs are PARALLEL and Synchronized so that numeric, string or pixel data gets processed on a specified time schedule and then the results are pushed out within predictable time period for external workstation-level processing/visualization. We care about GROSS AMOUNTS of data packets being processed in parallel on a specific schedule. We don't actually NEED linearly fast individual bits/bytes processing just massively parallel SYNCHRONIZED processing! Remember! We are outputting image tiles that are 128-bits per pixel (RGBA + metadata channels) at 65,536 by 65,536 pixels in size to be filtered and presented on a 64-bit RGBA colour laser projector that can do up to 10,000 fps to visualize neural tissue interaction in real-time!

WE are the ONLY ONES in the world that can do that sort of processing in real-time! Ergo, the parent company built the world's FASTEST supercomputer and LARGEST 64k by 64k resolution multi-RGB-Laser projection system with completely in-house custom-built GaAs 60 GHz and 2 THz clock speed super-chips!

Not even the NSA/DARPA has THAT sort of compute technology!
.
It's here NOW! We have it! Deal with it!
.
.
P.S. Scooby Scooby Canon! Where Are You?
.


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