# A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 28, 2015)

```
<p>Every few weeks, we get told that Canon will be using a Sony sensor in the upcoming high resolution Canon DSLR. Today was another one of those days.</p>
<p><strong>Direct Quote

</strong><em>“Canon will buy sony sensors for the next full frame cameras. but they are more a joint venture from Canon and Sony. Sony will make them and they will have EXMOR technology, for Canon they will get the DualPixel AF. <span class="s1">So it’s a patent exchange that helps both companies. S</span>ony will still sell the sensors to Nikon, but only without the DualPixel technology. Sony has the capacity to produce two lines of these 53MP sensors.”</em></p>
<p class="p1">I have yet to hear this from someone I know, it’s all coming from new and unknown sources. Take this with a salt truck. Thankfully, we won’t have long to wait to find out if this is true.</p>
<p class="p1"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Dylan777 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

interesting approach... ???

More DR for Canon. Better AF speed for Sony mirrorless?


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

How does sony have that capability? They must expend vast resources on their fab lines.

Either way: cool. Hopefully sourcing sensors will bring down the cost.


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## Orangutan (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



3kramd5 said:


> Either way: cool. Hopefully sourcing sensors will bring down the cost.



Sony's going to want a piece of the action; my guess is that it raises prices. 

I'm mixed on this announcement rumor: it's good that the high MP cameras (which I can't afford) will get improved studio/landscape capability. On the other hand, I hope Canon doesn't get out of the sensor business entirely -- we need more competition.


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Orangutan said:


> 3kramd5 said:
> 
> 
> > Either way: cool. Hopefully sourcing sensors will bring down the cost.
> ...



I'm guessing that Sony can sell Canon sensors at a profit for less than Canon can produce them. But I suppose it's a pipe dream that, if true, any of that savings shows up in MSRP. 



Orangutan said:


> On the other hand, I hope Canon doesn't get out of the sensor business entirely -- we need more competition.



Sony, Aptina, Toshiba, Samsung, Fuji, Foveon, etc. are all pushing innovation. I agree that more is better, but one fewer player in a component game isn't necessarily going to impact the market significantly.


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## NancyP (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Taken with abundant sodium chloride. ;D Well, if it has better dynamic resolution, I may be in. I shoot a fair amount of landscape.


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## Orangutan (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



3kramd5 said:


> Sony, Aptina, Toshiba, Samsung, Fuji, Foveon, etc. are all pushing innovation. I agree that more is better, but one fewer player in a component game isn't necessarily going to impact the market significantly.



I thought about that, but Canon's size is important.


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## Canihaspicture (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

They absolutely don't have to produce two different chips. They can produce the same chip simply with the dualpixel feature disabled. This would save Sony a ton of money and the ability to have several customers of the chip.


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## erjlphoto (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

We have but to wait for the excitement to begin.
No, not the Superbowl....the new Canon.


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## filipe (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Canon Rumors said:


> <p>Every few weeks, we get told that Canon will be using a Sony sensor in the upcoming high resolution Canon DSLR. Today was another one of those days.</p>
> <p><strong>Direct Quote
> 
> 
> ...



I guess or not this partnership will extend also for the new rebel 750D, at least for the sensor.

Wouldn't be nice for the new rebel to have top LCD, dual pixel AF and 24.2 sensor from Sony? eheheheh. Or maybe for a lower price only the Sony sensor.

This high mega pixel cameras are beyond my budget or even a FF.


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## docsmith (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Whatever gives us the best sensor.

BTW, I was looking over at this site and was intrigued that even for Nikon, the D4 and D4S sensors were not from Sony. The site has them listed as Nikon, but I wonder if it is someone else.

http://www.senscore.org/


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## Khufu (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

DPAF on the sec... no, third(?) generation of A7 cameras would be a massive leap forward! How about sharing some Tele-lens tech with Sony, too? Or EF compatibility? Between them they've nailed it all, divided they're going to have to keep on playing the patent-monopoly vs "what's the next best idea we've got?" game...

Would love to weild a pairing of A7s and A7r bodies with DPAF, sensor shift tech and 400 f/5.6L AF compatibility, amongst other EF lenses - and no, not necessarily to use those last 2 features together  ...and a boost in fps would be nice. 

*sigh* is there anything we can do to encourage Canon and Sony to play ball?


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## Lawliet (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Orangutan said:


> I thought about that, but Canon's size is important.


Compare that size to the volume a production line of your average contract foundry can handle. Imaging sensors aren't that much combined area compared to more mainstream applications - while individually large their total number keeps the amount of wafers to be processed in check.


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## PureClassA (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

It's going to be hard not to hold my breath on this one, but I'm licking the Salt Mine right now. This makes a lot of sense considering previous discussions that Canon's biggest issue is NOT the sensor, but the read noise itself because the Analog to Digital converter is OFF the sensor die which introduced noise into the signal path and accounts for the loss of 2-3 stops of DR. So Canon can partner with Sony, who it is no competition with for pro level DSLR (not mirrorless) and leverage their manufacturing process without having to invest what assume would be $10s of Millions of their own capital to do it. 

I would guess the most important part of the Exmor IS that AD being ON the die and if Sony has a patent application for it... well there ya go. 

If this comes to fruition I think jaws will hit the floor in short order. A Sony sensor with Canon AF is insane.


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## Lawliet (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



docsmith said:


> The site has them listed as Nikon, but I wonder if it is someone else.



It's a common misconception that you'd need a fab to make a sensor. You only need to provide the specs to a contractor. Nikon has always either bought 3rd party sensors or used their owns, depending on what is more convenient. OTOH having a dedicted line of sensor manufacture means you're stuck with it, can't pay it off with other jobs - all eggs in one basket.


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## Meh (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

This makes a lot of sense and I had a similar conversation with a friend a few weeks ago after the first rumors of a Sony sensor but my speculation was more along the lines of advancements made in the 7D2 sensor. My thought was that Canon may have been trying unsuccessfully to improve low-ISO noise (Canon sensors were way behind Sony sensors for noise at ISO 100 which limits DR) but didn't want to straight-up use Sony sensors. Advancements made in the 7D2 sensor and also dual-pixel AF may have finally given Canon some patents to trade with Sony so that they don't get hosed on cost.

If this is true... Sony and Canon team up on sensors.... and now Canon has the best of the Sony tech and vice-versa... is Nikon about to die? Without the low-ISO noise advantage on the sensor does Nikon have any selling point left?


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## gsealy (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

I am thinking that a couple of things might be in play. First, we know that DSLR sales are slacking off. So that means that consolidation in some way or form is going to happen. Maybe Canon's cost model says that for now it is cheaper to subcontract this piece rather than ramping up themselves. Second, the market and competition is pushing for higher MPs right now, and this is a way to get there sooner rather than later. They can continue to be projected as a leader. Lastly, maybe Canon is a little uncertain as to their market projections for their version of a high MP camera. Maybe they can't do a good projection based on the pricing point and features. So rather than investing tons of money on infrastructure to build their own chip (and with higher risk), they are buying from Sony.


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## racebit (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

This does not make sense to me.
Canon has just put out the 7D2 sensor, which scaled down to FF gives the 53-56MP wanted.
If Canon wanted to put a Sony Sensor on the High MP FF it would put a cut version (same pixel size) on the 7D2.
Or else the 7D2 would be outdated very soon. Canon waited 5 years to update the 7D. If such a major move was about to happen, they would not leave the 7D in the cold, they could wait some more months.
A FF scaled version of the 7D2 sensor makes all the sense in this timing, a few months after, to allow better yelds of the larger version.
If Canon wanted to introduce a Sony sensor, I think it would make more sense with the 5D4, not now with the "5Ds", as Canon has the required tech ready, from the 7D2.


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## Meh (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



racebit said:


> This does not make sense to me.
> Canon has just put out the 7D2 sensor, which scaled down to FF gives the 53-56MP wanted.
> If Canon wanted to put a Sony Sensor on the High MP FF it would put a cut version (same pixel size) on he 7D2.
> Or else the 7D2 would be outdated very soon.



If Canon is truly about to launch a camera with a sensor that uses Sony tech the two companies would have been in negotiations for quite some time. Canon's new tech in the 7D2 sensor along with the dual-pixel AF is very likely all part of the patent trade. Canon R&D would have certainly tried to get around Sony's patents so they obviously did not succeed but made other advancements that they could finally bargain with.


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## Lawliet (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



racebit said:


> Canon has just put out the 7D2 sensor, which scaled down to FF gives the 53-56MP wanted.



But still would have to be read by an external device, which is the root of all the sensor related issues. Both the image quality for still as well as video and everything DPAF related would benefit from a digital readout.


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## Don Haines (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

lots of speculation...
little is known....


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## racebit (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Don Haines said:


> lots of speculation...
> little is known....



Yes, Canon Rumors...


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## hoodlum (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



racebit said:


> This does not make sense to me.
> Canon has just put out the 7D2 sensor, which scaled down to FF gives the 53-56MP wanted.
> If Canon wanted to put a Sony Sensor on the High MP FF it would put a cut version (same pixel size) on he 7D2.
> Or else the 7D2 would be outdated very soon. Canon waited 5 years to update the 7D. If such a major move was about to happen, they would not leave the 7D in the cold, they could wait some more months.
> A FF scaled version of ths 7D2 sensor makes all the sense in this timing, a few months after, to allow better yelds of the larger version.



It seems like both Canon and Nikon want to push FF over crop to consumers. Nikon creates D750 instead of 7Dii direct competitor and Canon may be keeping older sensor tech just for APS-C. Both seem to be emphasizing FF more than ever.


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## wockawocka (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Don Haines said:


> lots of speculation...
> little is known....



Fo sho.


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## RGF (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



racebit said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > lots of speculation...
> ...


But this is good clean fun. That is why we are read and comment on this stuff.

Seriously if this happens, it would be great news. Best of both world.


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## sanj (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

This is good. Right?


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

What you say mirror my own thoughts. If it's true that Canon would partner with Sony for sensor technologies, that is.



gsealy said:


> I am thinking that a couple of things might be in play. First, we know that DSLR sales are slacking off. So that means that consolidation in some way or form is going to happen. Maybe Canon's cost model says that for now it is cheaper to subcontract this piece rather than ramping up themselves. Second, the market and competition is pushing for higher MPs right now, and this is a way to get there sooner rather than later. They can continue to be projected as a leader. Lastly, maybe Canon is a little uncertain as to their market projections for their version of a high MP camera. Maybe they can't do a good projection based on the pricing point and features. So rather than investing tons of money on infrastructure to build their own chip (and with higher risk), they are buying from Sony.


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## Machaon (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Canon Rumors said:


> Canon will buy sony sensors for the next full frame cameras. but they are more a joint venture from Canon and Sony. Sony will make them and they will have EXMOR technology, for Canon they will get the DualPixel AF. So it’s a patent exchange that helps both companies.



Sounds dodgy. If that really was Canon's strategy for products to be announced in the near future, why wouldn't they have already put such a sensor into the recently released 7D II? After all, it does have a likely product life of 3-5 years.

This is more likely to be someone's fantasy sensor, now churning around the rumour mills. However, I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong...

Rather than integrating innovations already out there in the market, I would hope that Canon offers something really interesting and novel in their upcoming flagships.


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## bmwzimmer (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

With the Emerging Mirrorless market mostly utilizing Micro 4/3 and APS-C sensors to keep the size of the body and lens combinations small, it does make sense to distinguish FF DSLR's as super high resolution beasts with accurate autofocus in any conditions for non compromising Professionals or Enthusiasts.


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## IglooEater (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Didnt Canon like, just build a new chip foundry? So they set them selves up to build chips, just to start outsourcing those chips?


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## 3kramd5 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



racebit said:


> This does not make sense to me.
> ...
> If Canon wanted to put a Sony Sensor on the High MP FF it would put a cut version (same pixel size) on the 7D2.
> Or else the 7D2 would be outdated very soon.



Why does the manufacturer of the sensor in a more-expensive/full frame/likely not optimized for fast action have any impact on how current a less-expensive/APS-C/optimized for fast action is?

Does the 7D2 outdate the 70D?

If it were a rumored Sony/Canon crop camera with a similar pricing, framerate, and AF system, then yes, that would outdate the 7D2. 

Personally, I find it unlikely that Sony would be able to tool for DPAF sensors that quickly unless they were involved in the development of the 70D.


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## lintoni (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

This thread is funny! ;D


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## sunnyVan (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Too good to be true. Therefore just a wish


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## Meh (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Machaon said:


> If that really was Canon's strategy for products to be announced in the near future, why wouldn't they have already put such a sensor into the recently released 7D II?



If this is all true which is yet to be seen, negotiations with Sony on cross-licensing patents may have been going on for quite some time, maybe even for the past two years that wouldn't be unusual. Meanwhile the 7D2 was long overdue so Canon released it with what they had knowing they will then release a "5Ds" with a 50+ MP sensor that's even better. There are any number of scenarios that could explain it.


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## bmwzimmer (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Machaon said:


> Canon Rumors said:
> 
> 
> > Canon will buy sony sensors for the next full frame cameras. but they are more a joint venture from Canon and Sony. Sony will make them and they will have EXMOR technology, for Canon they will get the DualPixel AF. So it’s a patent exchange that helps both companies.
> ...



I think the 7D mkII was in development perhaps 3 years ago and making such a change would probably delay production for yet another year. Besides, I don't think 14 stops of Dynamic Range at ISO 100 was a technical target for this camera. The 7Dii is niche and does what it's designed to do and does it better than any other camera body out there. 
I'm not sure it has any true competitor at the moment so why not put just a very good sensor (instead of the Best sensor) in there if it won't affect your primary technical targets and keep costs down.

Mirrorless sporty cameras like the A6000 and NX-1 can shoot sports but they don't have the telephoto lens selections the 7D has and adaptors just won't cut it.


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## kphoto99 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Canon has a history of releasing a product just before a new appropriate sensor is out. Look at the M. It screams for a dual pixel sensor. But they pushed it out the door before the DP was ready. Very likely the same thing happened with the 7D2. Canon wanted to recoup the development of the 7D2 instead of waiting to long. If this rumor is true then 7D3 will come in a year.


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## mrsfotografie (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Even if taken with a salt truck, this makes sense from a business point of view. It's probably added value for Canon to outsource the manufacturing because they don't have to dedicate manufacturing resources, and for Sony it's likely an interesting business proposition given their current state of affairs. Technically it also makes sense to take advantage of Sony's expertise. I can personally vouch for the quality of their sensors because the a6000 delivers stunning image quality and low shadow noise.


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## Luds34 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



racebit said:


> This does not make sense to me.
> Canon has just put out the 7D2 sensor, which scaled down to FF gives the 53-56MP wanted.
> If Canon wanted to put a Sony Sensor on the High MP FF it would put a cut version (same pixel size) on the 7D2.
> Or else the 7D2 would be outdated very soon. Canon waited 5 years to update the 7D. If such a major move was about to happen, they would not leave the 7D in the cold, they could wait some more months.
> ...



This was kind of my thinking as well. It has been my understanding that the 7D2, with it's latest greatest crop sensor tech, has gotten within about a stop from the 5D3 in high ISO, noise department. And that the noise on this sensor, at least compared to previous crops, is much more pleasing, easier to cleanup, etc. If you used this same sensor/tech on a full frame, what would that boost be compared to a current 5D? At least a stop better then current 5D/6D, correct?

And that's just noise discussion. The 7D "fixed" a lot of the banding issues, improved colors, etc. to just make a very solid crop sensor. I know many people in the other thread have said if this new high MP is just an upscaled 7D sensor they would be very disappointed. But in my mind, I'd think it would be a pretty good upgrade to Canon's current FF sensors.


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## Mitch.Conner (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



IglooEater said:


> Didnt Canon like, just build a new chip foundry? So they set them selves up to build chips, just to start outsourcing those chips?



7 years ago I think.


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## tomscott (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

It's all very exciting! I just want to see Canon get back on top again. Not sure using Sony sensors would do that? They are last generation and surely have a new one in the pipeline... I think the Canon system is better than Nikon but using the same sensor won't temp in the same way and instead will turn into a lens race.

Sony aren't exactly doing brilliant although their camera segment is interesting by implementing a song sensor and if song ends up in trouble then what?


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## IglooEater (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Mitch.Conner said:


> IglooEater said:
> 
> 
> > Didnt Canon like, just build a new chip foundry? So they set them selves up to build chips, just to start outsourcing those chips?
> ...



Oh ok. Sorry, my bad.


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## Perio (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Is it going to be less or more expensive for Canon to buy Sony sensors than to work on its own sensors?


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## Don Haines (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

what so many people seem to forget is that Sony sensors work better at low ISO and canon sensors work best at high ISO. Nobody is best across the board. I think it would be a step backwards for the industry to just pick one.

Another point that needs to be made is that you can outsource the production of your design. It is very possible that Sony can produce a Canon design of sensor more economically than in house at Canon.

This entire thread is wild speculation. We know nothing. Time to relax with a good book or go take some pictures. The universe will unfold as it will, no need getting upset or excited over such small things...


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## PureClassA (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Don Haines said:


> what so many people seem to forget is that Sony sensors work better at low ISO and canon sensors work best at high ISO. Nobody is best across the board. I think it would be a step backwards for the industry to just pick one.
> 
> Another point that needs to be made is that you can outsource the production of your design. It is very possible that Sony can produce a Canon design of sensor more economically than in house at Canon.
> 
> This entire thread is wild speculation. We know nothing. Time to relax with a good book or go take some pictures. The universe will unfold as it will, no need getting upset or excited over such small things...



Which is why still like the idea of Canon taking their own sensor at 50MP and officially implementing the Magic Lantern hack for dual ISO to increase DR. But I wont complain about having the Sony


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## Machaon (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



bmwzimmer said:


> I think the 7D mkII was in development perhaps 3 years ago and making such a change would probably delay production for yet another year.



I hear what you're saying, but the same point could be made for the FF cameras to be released this year and to which this rumour refers.

Their development and marketing life cycle is only separated from the 7D II by a few months.


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## PureClassA (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Machaon said:


> bmwzimmer said:
> 
> 
> > I think the 7D mkII was in development perhaps 3 years ago and making such a change would probably delay production for yet another year.
> ...



Consider that Canon may have been perfectly happy with the sensor performance of the 7DII as designed and felt no need to use Sony crops. 7DII buyers seem pretty damn happy too.


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## clifflwms (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



docsmith said:


> Whatever gives us the best sensor.
> 
> BTW, I was looking over at this site and was intrigued that even for Nikon, the D4 and D4S sensors were not from Sony. The site has them listed as Nikon, but I wonder if it is someone else.
> 
> http://www.senscore.org/



The D3/D4/D4s and actually most of the low end Nikon sensors (Currently) are Not provided by Sony. The High end Nikons never have been. The Low end Nikons are mostly Toshiba Sensors, the D4/s is Nikon designed and made by Renesas . The D800/810 uses Sony (obviously).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

At CR1 it might very well be just wishful thinking, but if this is real.... damn.


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## jasny (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

8)

[CR0]


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## Machaon (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



PureClassA said:


> Consider that Canon may have been perfectly happy with the sensor performance of the 7DII as designed and felt no need to use Sony crops. 7DII buyers seem pretty damn happy too.



Absolutely, and I think that philosophy will translate into future FFs too.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



PureClassA said:


> If this comes to fruition I think jaws will hit the floor in short order. A Sony sensor with Canon AF is insane.



yes
;D


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## wsmith96 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

This also may be an opportunity for canon to retool their own production lines while continuing to supply products. It's not uncommon for something like this to occur while modernizing a facility.


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## x-vision (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Machaon said:


> This is more likely to be someone's fantasy sensor, now churning around the rumour mills.



My thoughts exactly. 

Sony has high resolution/DR and Canon has dual-pixel AF.
If we marry those two, we end up with high resolution/DR and dual-pixel AF - in the same package. 

What an obvious, wonderful solution ... that is pure fantasy, I'm afraid.

There are many reasons why Canon will not switch to Sony sensors and 
is unlikely to cooperate with Sony on sensor manufacturing at this time.

The rumored 50MP resolution is also fantasy, IMO.

My bet is that Canon's high-resolution camera will feature a 40mp/high-DR Canon sensor.
Let's see who will get it more right 8).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Don Haines said:


> what so many people seem to forget is that Sony sensors work better at low ISO and canon sensors work best at high ISO. Nobody is best across the board. I think it would be a step backwards for the industry to just pick one.



Look at the DR difference between Sony and Canon at High ISO (rather modest, I mean what, like barely 1/4 stop worse than the 6D? and actually like at least a 1/4 stop of more better than 5D3) and at Low ISO (huge):
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D750-versus-Canon-EOS-6D-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III___975_836_795

Look at the SNR (Sony actually ahead at High ISO, if anything, although it's basically all within the margin of error and nobody will notice any differences on this plot even if the data is exact anyway):
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D750-versus-Canon-EOS-6D-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III___975_836_795 

So....


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



x-vision said:


> Machaon said:
> 
> 
> > This is more likely to be someone's fantasy sensor, now churning around the rumour mills.
> ...



My wish is a 36+MP high DR sensor, with nice 4k and non-crippled video usability basics and non-waxy quality and that can deliver at least 6fps in some form or another (even if just in an APS-C cropped mode). 

My guess is a low DR, 40-50MP sensor with crippled body specs (4fps and no true cropped modes at all, never mind with more speed) and crippled 1080P. ;D 

Unless Canon becomes the old Canon again, in which case maybe it will be my wish.


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## andrewflo (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

It's seemed like lately Canon sensors have been falling behind Nikon (Sony) in dynamic range performance. Would love to see some Sony sensors in Canon bodies w/ Canon glass. That seems like a winner all across the board.


----------



## ewg963 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Don Haines said:


> lots of speculation...
> little is known....


Yep...


----------



## Meh (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > what so many people seem to forget is that Sony sensors work better at low ISO and canon sensors work best at high ISO. Nobody is best across the board. I think it would be a step backwards for the industry to just pick one.
> ...



The downsampling in the DxO testing methodology may have something to do with that. Roger Clarke has for years, if I understand it correctly, stated that Canon sensors are the best for low-light, astro-photography and he recently called the 7D2 sensor a game changer for astro and it had something do with an advancement in dark current at high-iso (I'll go find his post later if I have time, I don't recall the details and I could be wrong). Regardless of the details, it's perfectly plausible that whatever advancement Canon has made with the 7D2, dual-pixel AF, and possibly other tech that we don't know about has given them enough to do a cross-licensing deal with Sony. If they had just wanted to use Sony sensors without something to trade it may have been too expensive or they may have had to give up control of other sensor design. Bottom line is that if this rumour is true it very likely is only happening now because Canon finally has something that Sony also wants.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Meh said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > Don Haines said:
> ...



Well astro performance is something a bit different, it might be that Canon is best for that, but otherwise it seems to be kind of a wash at high ISO at this point (and even with Sony ahead if you look to their high ISO-tuned Exmor used in the A7S).


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Karlpedal said:


> let us see what Canon are showing up, I don't believe in a second that Canon are using a Sony inside their new cameras with higher resolution, it would be a slap in the face of Canons own sensor division



Many people suspect Canon used a Sony sensor in its PowerShot G7 X.

In any case, Canon is a business. If the higher-ups they believe they are better suited using a sensor built by someone else, either temporarily while they re-tool, or indefinitely, that's what they will do.


----------



## Khufu (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



3kramd5 said:


> Karlpedal said:
> 
> 
> > let us see what Canon are showing up, I don't believe in a second that Canon are using a Sony inside their new cameras with higher resolution, it would be a slap in the face of Canons own sensor division
> ...



Aye - in that interview with, er, some Canon fella' (someone here will know what I'm talking about) he said they use whatever sensor does the job best, when asked about the implementation of Sony sensors in recent Canon cameras. It's hardly inconceivable that the Canon Execs say things, do things and a little while later still say and do those same things.


----------



## bertzie (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

If, IF Sony had a 50mp sensor, why haven't they put it in any of their own cameras yet?

I find it incredibly unlikely that Canon would use an outside firm to design such an important sensor for such an important camera. On a point and shoot? Sure, nobody is really going to care. But people that buy those high end Canon cameras are going to want Canon tech.


----------



## mb66energy (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



bertzie said:


> If, IF Sony had a 50mp sensor, why haven't they put it in any of their own cameras yet?
> 
> I find it incredibly unlikely that Canon would use an outside firm to design such an important sensor for such an important camera. On a point and shoot? Sure, nobody is really going to care. But people that buy those high end Canon cameras are going to want Canon tech.



For me it doesn't matter if they use a Sony sensor - if the final image delivers the technical qualiry I want. Most important to me is compatibility with my lenses and good ergonomics of the camera ...


----------



## dolina (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

I do not see why anyone would have a problem with this partnership. I look forward to this product.

I hope the Friday, January 30 announcement day will hold true.


----------



## LukasS (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



dolina said:


> I hope the Friday, January 30 announcement day will hold true.



It's on February 6th . So next week.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



bertzie said:


> If, IF Sony had a 50mp sensor, why haven't they put it in any of their own cameras yet?
> 
> I find it incredibly unlikely that Canon would use an outside firm to design such an important sensor for such an important camera.



The problem is Canon is using and old fab and it's too old to make Exmor or any of the many recent new patents from Canon for improving sensor IQ in major ways, I mean they can make the sensor sensor in terms of just the photo collection piece, but they can't put any good, modern, circuitry inside of the sensor, the pieces they need to make are too small. A new fab cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ so maybe they just gave up and figured better to partner with Sony who already has capable fabs.



> But people that buy those high end Canon cameras are going to want Canon tech.



They are gonna want worse tech in the high end gear? Just to get a Canon name on all of the tech?


----------



## preppyak (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



bertzie said:


> If, IF Sony had a 50mp sensor, why haven't they put it in any of their own cameras yet?
> 
> I find it incredibly unlikely that Canon would use an outside firm to design such an important sensor for such an important camera. On a point and shoot? Sure, nobody is really going to care. *But people that buy those high end Canon cameras are going to want Canon tech.*


Funny, I know quite a few people on the forum who would gladly take Sony sensor tech if it's better. If you're gonna drop a 50mp landscape/studio camera, it better have the dynamic range and color sensitivity to outcompete everyone else. Right now, Canon sensors dont do that.

As to your other point, Canon does have a 50mp sensor and a patent for it. It may be part of what they are sharing with Sony, who in turn is sharing some of their fabrication processes.


----------



## V8Beast (Jan 28, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



bertzie said:


> On a point and shoot? Sure, nobody is really going to care. But people that buy those high end Canon cameras are going to want Canon tech.



Not me. I want the best technology possible. I don't care who makes it. 

Corvettes and Cadillacs share the same engines as much less expensive Chevy pickup trucks. Ultimately no one cares, because they make a ton of horsepower, get great mileage, are inexpensive to manufacture and maintain, and are extremely reliable. I'll gladly take a Corvette or a Cadillac over my Honda


----------



## Springf (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

this looks definitely fishy... I don't think Canon will exchange DPAF for more DR...
That would help much on Sony's already strong video business...


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



dilbert said:


> Springf said:
> 
> 
> > this looks definitely fishy... I don't think Canon will exchange DPAF for more DR...
> ...


FINALLY! Someone gets it!

Just because Sony fabricates it does not mean they designed it. The place where I work has been sending designs out for fabrication for 40 years.... we hold the patents, they sign an NDA. No fabrication house is ever going to violate an NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) because if they do they will lose all future business from everyone and get sued back to the dark ages. Heck, during the "cold war" we were testing satellites for the Russians and the Americans.... competitors WILL use the same service if that service is the best.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



dilbert said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > what so many people seem to forget is that Sony sensors work better at low ISO and canon sensors work best at high ISO. Nobody is best across the board. I think it would be a step backwards for the industry to just pick one.
> ...



Canon make steppers, part of the machinery needed to make sensors, Sony don't.


----------



## Aglet (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



privatebydesign said:


> Canon make steppers, part of the machinery needed to make sensors, Sony don't.



That's a big, true, irony.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



bertzie said:


> If, IF Sony had a 50mp sensor, why haven't they put it in any of their own cameras yet?
> 
> I find it incredibly unlikely that Canon would use an outside firm to design such an important sensor for such an important camera. On a point and shoot? Sure, nobody is really going to care. But people that buy those high end Canon cameras are going to want Canon tech.



Couple things. Sony IS putting a 50MP sensor into their new rigs. That's been talked about for months in the rumor mill. So that's that. When the Canon rumor mill ALSO began with a 50MP sensor, a few eyebrows went up. Then we got Rumors that there may be some cross sharing between the two. Canon plus Sony make a lot more sense, because Nikon frankly has little to nothing to offer Sony in terms of tech. Canon has loads. Farming out the fabrication process to Sony in return for saving TONS of money themselves on retooling their own process makes loads of sense. In return Sony gets sales it would never otherwise see via Canon DSLRs and possibly some help with AF technology which they are way behind Canon on.

Yes, this all sounds wild, but all of it is totally plausible. By the way, I don't recall any Nikon fanboys moaning about Sony sensors... Canon people wont either, because Canon pros understand a camera is a SYSTEM and not just a sensor


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Here's a good question... IF this bears fruit... will Canon correct the well known inferior color rendition of the Exmor? Hmmm.... Place your bets! That's the only real downside to a Sony sensor because a hallmark of Canon is the most accurate color fidelity.


----------



## markesc (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Could not agree more!






PureClassA said:


> bertzie said:
> 
> 
> > If, IF Sony had a 50mp sensor, why haven't they put it in any of their own cameras yet?
> ...


----------



## Mitch.Conner (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

I really don't see this happening.

Could it happen? Yes.

I'd be very surprised though.


----------



## dak723 (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



PureClassA said:


> Here's a good question... IF this bears fruit... will Canon correct the well known inferior color rendition of the Exmor? Hmmm.... Place your bets! That's the only real downside to a Sony sensor because a hallmark of Canon is the most accurate color fidelity.



To me, adding DR with the Exmor won't be worth a hoot if the color isn't as excellent as it has always been with the Canon sensors. More DR and less noise are almost of no importance to me, but color is another matter. Color is my number one factor when it comes to IQ.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



dak723 said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a good question... IF this bears fruit... will Canon correct the well known inferior color rendition of the Exmor? Hmmm.... Place your bets! That's the only real downside to a Sony sensor because a hallmark of Canon is the most accurate color fidelity.
> ...



To me anybody that worries about colour output from today's sensors just doesn't have a good enough idea of custom camera profiles.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Not at all. Some just prefer not to have to do a lot of extra color grading for skin tones in post and they rather not have their reds look more purple... because of course, Lightroom is always accurate ;-) It's a quality issue for Canon. It's also one area Sony has been unable to equal. Can it be corrected? Sure. Would I prefer accuracy off the sensor? Hell yes.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



PureClassA said:


> Not at all. Some just prefer not to have to do a lot of extra color grading for skin tones in post and they rather not have their reds look more purple... because of course, Lightroom is always accurate ;-) It's a quality issue for Canon. It's also one area Sony has been unable to equal. Can it be corrected? Sure. Would I prefer accuracy off the sensor? Hell yes.



If you want accuracy off the sensor, then it's grayscale for you. Otherwise, it's all software and profiles.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



PureClassA said:


> Not at all. Some just prefer not to have to do a lot of extra color grading for skin tones in post and they rather not have their reds look more purple... because of course, Lightroom is always accurate ;-) It's a quality issue for Canon. It's also one area Sony has been unable to equal. Can it be corrected? Sure. Would I prefer accuracy off the sensor? Hell yes.



There is no such thing as _"accuracy off the sensor"_ it is all interpolated garbage, mix it to taste once and make that your import profile, how hard it that?


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



dilbert said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



There are three companies in the world that make steppers, Canon, Nikon, and ASML a Dutch company. I believe they all make the same generation steppers, though Nikon are well off the boil, and Canon lost a lot of market share to ASML as well due to very restrictive and proprietary attitudes. ASML have carved a substantial portion of the market out for themselves because of business practices, not technology.


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Canon: All right. Who makes the sensor? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both take pictures, and find out who has Canon... and who has Sony.
Rumours guy: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the sensor into his own camera or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the sensor into his own camera, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of me. 
Canon: You've made your decision then? 
Rumours guy: Not remotely. Because sony sensors are designed in Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of you. 
Canon: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. 
Rumours guy: Wait till I get going! Now, where was I? 
Canon: Australia. 
Rumours guy: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the sensor's origin, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of me. 
Canon: You're just stalling now. 
Rumours guy: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've shot with a 1DX and 1200F5.6, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the sensor in your own camera, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of you. But, you've also bested my Tamron, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the sensor as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of me. 
Canon: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work. 
Rumours guy: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHAT THE sensor IS! 
Canon: Then make your choice. 
Rumours guy: I will, and I choose - IS THAT A NEW PHOTOSHOP RELEASE? 
Canon: [Rumours guy gestures up and away from the table. Canon Exec looks. Rumours guy swaps the cameras] 
Canon: What? Where? I don't see anything. 
Rumours guy: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw an upgrade. No matter. First, let's shoot. Me from my camera, and you from yours. 
Canon, Rumours guy: [Rumours guy and the Canon exec shoot] 
Canon: You guessed wrong. 
Rumours guy: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched cameras when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian when photography is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha... 
Rumours guy: [Rumours guy stops suddenly, his smile frozen on his face and falls to the ground dead] 
Neuro: And to think, all that time it was your camera that had a canon sensor. 
Canon: They were both canon sensors. Sony is building to our design.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

LOLOLOL. Don!!!! Best Princess Bride reference ever!


----------



## bgran8 (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Very well done. By the way, your caption under your name is by far the best I've seen.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



dilbert said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > dilbert said:
> ...



It is common knowledge for those that choose to learn. I believe I got the main bits from Thom Hogan's site but that was all garnered from business reports, all three companies have to file financial reports, as do any other companies in that business unless they are privately held, which given the investment and market is extremely unlikely.

I do appreciate your even temperedness, but many of the laboured points you argue can be unemotionally settled very easily with simple research.


----------



## K (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Having had to hear about all the dynamic range hype for the last 2 years, I'm going to finally chime in with some facts for those who might be missing the full story.

Comparing dynamic range between Nikon and Canon is a little bit of apples to oranges. 

Nikon with the Sony sensor has "tuned" their sensor technology to offer massive dynamic range at lower ISO. Canon on the other hand, has "tuned" their sensors to have good dynamic range across all ISO range, particularly high ISO. They give up big DR at low ISO to improve it at high ISO which high ISO is much, much more difficult territory for good dynamic range.

Everyone goes to DXO and reads the results - then makes the blanket statement that Nikon has superior DR. Have they looked into the testing methodology? What is being measured and where?

DXO even says that the DR measure is based on LANDSCAPE type photography. This is LOW ISO world. On that, yes the Nikon is better. No question.

If you click on the full test results - you'll find this chart on DXO Mark -







Here you can see the fairly new, and mighty D810, hailed to have the best sensor of all time has weaker DR than the old, entry-level full frame 6D from ISO 800 and beyond.

So it really depends on what you're doing. I'm sure Sony/Nikon could have tweaked it to have better high ISO dynamic range at the expense of low ISO dynamic range - but that is not what they went for.

Having said all this - for me it all comes down to whether or not the dynamic range on these sensors can be tweaked, or if this is something inherent with their design. If it can be adjusted by manufacturer, then I wouldn't mind the Sony sensor in a Canon. The Sony sensor is very efficient for the pixel size. If going with the Sony sensor means losing high ISO DR, that is a no-go for anyone shooting events.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



K said:


> Having had to hear about all the dynamic range hype for the last 2 years, I'm going to finally chime in with some facts for those who might be missing the full story.
> 
> Comparing dynamic range between Nikon and Canon is a little bit of apples to oranges.
> 
> Nikon with the Sony sensor has "tuned" their sensor technology to offer massive dynamic range at lower ISO. Canon on the other hand, has "tuned" their sensors to have good dynamic range across all ISO range, particularly high ISO. They give up big DR at low ISO to improve it at high ISO which high ISO is much, much more difficult territory for good dynamic range.



Not really. Canon didn't make a decision to give something up at low sensitivity in order to achieve something at high sensitivity. Because the ADC is removed from the sensor with Canon's architecture, there is ample opportunity to add analog noise before the signal is digitized. If they were to somehow address their low ISO noise characteristics, their high ISO noise characteristics would benefit from it as well.


----------



## torger (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

One thing is sure, a high megapixel Canon body with the same DR as previous Canon models would be a *massive* disappointment. To make the consumers happy it _must_ be competitive with Sony in this regard.

If the only way they can achieve this is to use a Sony sensor, then it's the right way to go.

If it falls a little short on high ISO performance compared to their other models it's just a plus, it differentiates the products, it's not good to have one that is best at all aspects. Today a high resolution camera must perform excellently at base ISO with huge DR, that's what people expect.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



torger said:


> One thing is sure, a high megapixel Canon body with the same DR as previous Canon models would be a *massive* disappointment. To make the consumers happy it _must_ be competitive with Sony in this regard.


Maybe, but I suspect that the price point will be the lynch pin, not whether it gains a little more detail in the lowest couple stops of exposure.

I'd welcome it (DR), but it's not make-or-break for me. I resisted the D800 because I didn't want to deal with massive file sizes and the necessity to maintain a large collection of flash memory. But when I got the A7R (which was a substantially cheaper purchase since I merely needed an adapter, not a new set of lenses), I also picked up more memory and upgraded my workstation to handle A7R files. I haven't played with any Pentax RAWs, but I suspect I would be able to work at ~50MP without too much consternation.


----------



## Don Haines (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



privatebydesign said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...


What about Leeson? They make a very nice 5HP stepper motor and I have several in use on jackscrews for controlling satellite dishes.


----------



## privatebydesign (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Don Haines said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > It is common knowledge for those that choose to learn. I believe I got the main bits from Thom Hogan's site but that was all garnered from business reports, all three companies have to file financial reports, as do any other companies in that business unless they are privately held, which given the investment and market is extremely unlikely.
> ...



Ah, that is probably how Sony ended up with their competitive sensor manufacturing plant, they ordered some Leeson stepper motors from McMaster Carr


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



PureClassA said:


> because a hallmark of Canon is the most accurate color fidelity.



If you look at color studies of RAW files that actually seems to be not the case and the Canon sensors have become far more color blind than even just ten years ago.

Most of it is just to do with what color array filter you put in front of the sensor. The less tight the filter the more light the sensor is allowed to capture and the better the SNR but the worse color discrimination.

Of course it is a little tricky since a camera can be more color blind for some colors and less for others and there can be a big difference under say natural lighting and then very little under a certain type of artificial, etc. So it's a very complex tricky thing to get into.

As to the final result that most people see, a lot depends upon the way the software color profiles are constructed and tweaked for each camera too.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



dak723 said:


> PureClassA said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a good question... IF this bears fruit... will Canon correct the well known inferior color rendition of the Exmor? Hmmm.... Place your bets! That's the only real downside to a Sony sensor because a hallmark of Canon is the most accurate color fidelity.
> ...



Hopefully you are still using a 1Ds3 and nothing recent from Canon then. And under natural lighting, recent Nikon actually can see more different colors than recent Canon.

Anyway who says Canon won't use the same types of CFA filters with Exmor that they do now? (not that this is necessarily good, unless they go back to say 1Ds3 generation)

Anyway a lot of the difference is also just down to what color profile you choose. I mean heck just flip between various profiles in DPP and ACR and you get radically different color.... from the same camera!


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Not really. Canon didn't really tune for anything much. They don't have the ability to not have the curve fade down at low ISO, they are forced into it.

Also if you compare 6D to D750 then it's only like 1/4 stop better for high ISO DR, that is NOTHING. Even the D810 (which was tuned down a touch to be extra good at low ISO since the base is ISO64 instead of ISO100) is still only like 1/2 stop worse at high ISO. And the Exmor in the A7S which has base set to favor high ISO a bit, I believe has both better low ISO DR (although not by quite as much as the D810) and a tiny bit better at high ISO than the 6D at the same time.




K said:


> Having had to hear about all the dynamic range hype for the last 2 years, I'm going to finally chime in with some facts for those who might be missing the full story.
> 
> Comparing dynamic range between Nikon and Canon is a little bit of apples to oranges.
> 
> ...


----------



## Diko (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

I reckon that in a previous topic I've pinpointed exactly that problem: 


Diko said:


> _*...And I wonder how do you make a home-grown in-house tech go out to you competitors to produce it? Or you just don't - and that makes you look like everybody else.*_



If this turns out to be true - then it makes sense. *Sony* obtains DAF and *Canon* makes a big comeback. 

Combine that with already high ISO capabilities achieved by both vendors and you get a better Noise levels thanks to downsampling, right? Or am I wrong about the noise?

There however still seems to be missing one part of the puzzle:


Diko said:


> jasny said:
> 
> 
> > One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.
> ...



Additionally where will be situated the the *downstream amplifier(s)* (secondary outside of the sensor amplifier - thanks *Jrista* for the clarification). If on the CMOS sensor DxO low-evaluation-of-CANON-sensors-trend will change drastically. AFAIK it is because of them CANON is always behind SONYKON.

I believe all amplifiers with SONY are on the CMOS and with CANON are not. How will they merge that logic. Complete change of logic on one or both of vendors' proprietary DSP (digital signal processor). In Canon that means DIGIC 7S (s - for Sony sensors).


----------



## jasny (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Diko said:


> I believe all amplifiers with SONY are on the CMOS and with CANON are not. How will they merge that logic. Complete change of logic on one or both of vendors' proprietary DSP (digital signal processor). In Canon that means DIGIC 7S (s - for Sony sensors).



And how have they merged Sony sensor with Canon DIGiC 6 in G7 X? 

BTW: currently I've got reasons to consider all that Canon/Sony tech exchange to be [CR0] eg. never going to happen. Still there is a chance I'm wrong.


----------



## Diko (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

*Interesting*. Could be one of the many reasons for the restared High MP competition:



> Olympus OM-D E-M5II Specs
> Magnesium alloy body
> Dust and water resistant
> 16MP sensor
> ...


----------



## jasny (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Karlpedal said:


> jasny said:
> 
> 
> > Diko said:
> ...



1" Sony is Exmor either.


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Karlpedal said:


> jasny said:
> 
> 
> > Diko said:
> ...



But the Canon Sony RX100 clone has a Sony Exmor chip and uses Digic.
Who says they have to use any ADC part of DIGIC?
Are we even sure the ADC is part of digic itself?


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## Don Haines (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Karlpedal said:
> 
> 
> > jasny said:
> ...


I was under the impression that the A/D was done on an Analog Devices chip between the sensor and the processor....


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## Don Haines (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Why does everyone assume it is a done deal that an Exmore chip will be used?

It could be Sony fabricating a new Canon design that they are able to produce more efficiently than Canon can in-house...

It could be Sony fabricating an existing Canon design....

It could be Sony fabricating a hybrid Sony/Canon design...

It could be a pure Sony design...

It could just be a rumour....

It could be a prototype...

It could be lots of things....

We don't know. Period!


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## Khufu (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

I know which, I'm just not saying...


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## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Khufu said:


> I know which, I'm just not saying...



Ah so YOU are the source of the rumor mill then :


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Don Haines said:


> Why does everyone assume it is a done deal that an Exmore chip will be used?
> 
> It could be Sony fabricating a new Canon design that they are able to produce more efficiently than Canon can in-house...
> 
> ...



Of course, but why go to a rumor site if you don't wanna discuss things about if so and so proves to be true?


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## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Why does everyone assume it is a done deal that an Exmore chip will be used?
> ...



I think Don's comment was more directed toward tone than topic.


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## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Don Haines said:


> Canon: All right. Who makes the sensor? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both take pictures, and find out who has Canon... and who has Sony.



LOL...I got a kick out of this. Very well done, Don!



Don Haines said:


> Neuro: And to think, all that time it was your camera that had a canon sensor.



Wait...Does this make Neuro Princess Buttercup???


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## Famateur (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Don Haines said:


> Neuro NancyP: And to think, all that time it was your camera that had a canon sensor.



There, Neuro -- I fixed it for you.


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## K (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Not really. Canon didn't really tune for anything much. They don't have the ability to not have the curve fade down at low ISO, they are forced into it.
> 
> Also if you compare 6D to D750 then it's only like 1/4 stop better for high ISO DR, that is NOTHING. Even the D810 (which was tuned down a touch to be extra good at low ISO since the base is ISO64 instead of ISO100) is still only like 1/2 stop worse at high ISO. And the Exmor in the A7S which has base set to favor high ISO a bit, I believe has both better low ISO DR (although not by quite as much as the D810) and a tiny bit better at high ISO than the 6D at the same time.





How old is the 6D, how new is the 810 and 750?

My point is clear, Nikon doesn't deserve the over the top hype and praise for DR it receives when their cameras are technically worse than the Canon after ISO 1000. Sure, it's within a 1/4 stop which in practical terms is nothing. So again, why the big praise over Canon for DR? 

At low ISO, sure - hence they make good landscape cameras. That is about it.

The general internet impression and buzz over the last couple years has been that Nikon blows away Canon on DR because of the Sony sensor. This is just not true, and has to be put into a proper context.


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## jeffa4444 (Feb 1, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



3kramd5 said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > 3kramd5 said:
> ...


Add to that list CMOSIS / TowerJazz, Onsemiconductor and a couple of Chinese companies


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## c.d.embrey (Feb 1, 2015)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Sony's sensor division make very good products ... Sony's consumer camera division not so much. Think of Sony being Mercedes Benz, They make both Maybach (Sony Sensor) and Smart cars (Sony consumer cameras).

The Sony Fanbois grasp at every straw available trying to link their so-so cameras to other superior brands. Sony's consumer cameras have the very good Sony Sensor that is crippled by *stupid thing* like compressed raw, etc, etc. Bare Bones Software's motto is *"It (still) doesn't suck."* Sony's consumer camera division seems to think that people like camera *software that sucks more.* As long as Canon's camera *software sucks less* no-one (except Sony consumer camera Fanbois) really cares who makes the sensor.


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## ritholtz (Mar 8, 2016)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Is this rumor true.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Mar 8, 2016)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



ritholtz said:


> Is this rumor true.



There is more evidence that is still being analyzed. A Sony Manufactured Dual Pixel Sensor is being used in the latest Samsung Smart Phone.

It may indeed be a patent swap or we may see a Sony manufactured Dual Pixel Sensor in the latest models. I suspect that any swap of patent would restrict Sony from selling DPAF sensors for 1 inch and larger camera sensors. But for Camera phones, its worth a lot of $$ to Sony. They can sell gazillions to Samsung and Apple and a few dozen for Sony phones.


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## RGF (Mar 9, 2016)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



dilbert said:


> This sounds like what Canon would do for the 5DsR Mark II.



Or perhaps the 5D M4. Backlit sensor (hope I have the correct term) used in the A7R II would be great in the 5DM4. Even if not 4x MP, but in the 30's range.

Of course we may see a Nikon 820 (or what ever the next model will be called) with the Sony 4x back lit sensor which will give the 5DS/SR a real run for its money.


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## Mr Majestyk (Mar 10, 2016)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*

Technology swap. DPAF for sensor tech. 1DX II looks to have on chip ADC and hopefully 80D, and Galaxy S7 is using Sony sensor with DPAF, seems coincidental, NOT!


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## ritholtz (Mar 10, 2016)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Mr Majestyk said:


> Technology swap. DPAF for sensor tech. 1DX II looks to have on chip ADC and hopefully 80D, and Galaxy S7 is using Sony sensor with DPAF, seems coincidental, NOT!


Samsung released its own version of same sensor. Looks like it is samsung who own this tech with phone sensors.


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## rrcphoto (Mar 10, 2016)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



Mr Majestyk said:


> Technology swap. DPAF for sensor tech. 1DX II looks to have on chip ADC and hopefully 80D, and Galaxy S7 is using Sony sensor with DPAF, seems coincidental, NOT!



or what happened was that Sony made the chip for Samsung.

which seems especially likely considering that Samsung just announced a DPAF 12MP sensor of it's own.


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## 3kramd5 (Mar 10, 2016)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



rrcphoto said:


> or what happened was that Sony made the chip for Samsung.
> 
> which seems especially likely considering that Samsung just announced a DPAF 12MP sensor of it's own.



Some of the Galaxy S7s come with Sony fab sensors (IMX260). Some come with Samsung fab sensors (S5K2L1).


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## Mr Majestyk (Mar 11, 2016)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



ritholtz said:


> Mr Majestyk said:
> 
> 
> > Technology swap. DPAF for sensor tech. 1DX II looks to have on chip ADC and hopefully 80D, and Galaxy S7 is using Sony sensor with DPAF, seems coincidental, NOT!
> ...



Canon may have licensed it to both. I have read the Canon patent in detail and there's very little wriggle room for others to employ a similar version of DPAF.


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## rrcphoto (Mar 12, 2016)

*Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]*



3kramd5 said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > or what happened was that Sony made the chip for Samsung.
> ...



Samsung could have contracted Sony to make it though. Sony would still give it a part number.

also the number is curious since Sony's OWN manufactured / sold sensors are up to IMX313 as far as designations.


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