# Canon 18-45 f/3.5-5.6 Kit Lens for APS-C Mirrorless Patent



## Canon Rumors Guy (Feb 20, 2012)

```
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<p><strong>Canon Mirrorless Fun

</strong>A patent showing  an 18-45 f/3.5-5.6 kit lens for an APS-C sensored mirrorless camera has appeared. That would be a 29mm-70mm lens when crop is factored in.</p>
<p>Source: [<a href="http://egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2012-02-20">EG</a>]</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
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## maxxevv (Feb 20, 2012)

Think the prayers of a lot of mirrorless advocates have been answered !


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## paulc (Feb 20, 2012)

Gimme an EF compatible body and a pancake prime for taking on vacation and I'll be a happy happy man.


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## briansquibb (Feb 20, 2012)

That is the start of the future of APS-C with its gradual move into the consumer arena. Imagine a mirrorless 7D equivalent and then wonder if there is a future for the DSLR 7D as well?


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## melbournite (Feb 20, 2012)

Sounds nice but I don't think I would buy it. My choice of compact camera three or four years ago was the Lumix LX3 but since I got myself an iPhone a couple of years ago (and especially the iPhone 4S), I haven't used it at all. Mostly because it's with me 24/7 and comes in handy when I'm not carrying my 5DII or 7D.

So, I don't think I would be in the market for a Canon Mirrorless although I'm sure it would be lots of fun.


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## Kiran (Feb 20, 2012)

paulc said:


> Gimme an EF compatible body and a pancake prime for taking on vacation and I'll be a happy happy man.



I agree, EF compatible body is what I am waiting for in the mirror less camera from Canon, I have seen EF adapters for other mirror less cameras in the market but it would be nice if Canon released one with EF and EFS mount

About this new lens 18-45mm, it would have been nice if they had provided 24 - 70mm instead of 29 to 70mm


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## marekjoz (Feb 20, 2012)

Good it is APS-C and no less. This is kit zoom and it doesn't exclude better lenses. I also think this is the future of entry level DSLR successors' line.


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## paulc (Feb 20, 2012)

Kiran said:


> About this new lens 18-45mm, it would have been nice if they had provided 24 - 70mm instead of 29 to 70mm



There may be a serious physical size consideration here. It's already APS-C. Given what the patent shows I'm already kinda worried it will look like a half of a can of soda hanging off a deck of cards. The whole package needs to be small or else it's pointless.


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## maxxevv (Feb 20, 2012)

paulc said:


> There may be a serious physical size consideration here. It's already APS-C. Given what the patent shows I'm already kinda worried it will look like a half of a can of soda hanging off a deck of cards. The whole package needs to be small or else it's pointless.



I'm not so sure what the outcome will be but I think Canon seems to have pulled all the stops in miniaturizing the lens design. Typical back focus for EF lenses are in the range of 40-70mm range. But this one apparently has a "0.5mm" back focus. Which means an extremely rear plane ! Typically, a lens with a very close rear plane can be made smaller to cover the same image circle. 

I wonder how this compares to other mirrorless systems or maybe even the Leica M system ? Anyone has any clues what are the back focus of other mirrorless systems like the NEX ?


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## thejoyofsobe (Feb 20, 2012)

i'm thinking the G1X with its APS-C sensor is the precursor to Canon's mirrorless, interchangeable lens debut, kind of like the Fuji's X100 was to the X-Pro1. next year the new model G series comes with a lens mount and hopefully a built-in electronic viewfinder.


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## stabmasterasron (Feb 20, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> paulc said:
> 
> 
> > There may be a serious physical size consideration here. It's already APS-C. Given what the patent shows I'm already kinda worried it will look like a half of a can of soda hanging off a deck of cards. The whole package needs to be small or else it's pointless.
> ...



I agree. I am worried it will look like the Sony NEX system. Sure the body is small, but the lenses are still large because of the sensor. Not sure how miniaturizing the body helps when the lenses are still large. Just makes working with the body harder as it is small and has fewer external controls.


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## Ricku (Feb 20, 2012)

melbournite said:


> Sounds nice but I don't think I would buy it. My choice of compact camera three or four years ago was the Lumix LX3 but since I got myself an iPhone a couple of years ago (and especially the iPhone 4S), I haven't used it at all. Mostly because it's with me 24/7 and comes in handy when I'm not carrying my 5DII or 7D.
> 
> So, I don't think I would be in the market for a Canon Mirrorless although I'm sure it would be lots of fun.


Agreed. The Iphone is the only compact camera I'll ever want / need.


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## mkln (Feb 20, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> maxxevv said:
> 
> 
> > paulc said:
> ...



size doesnt really matter if the whole package is still small enough
I'm using a NEX 5n with a voigtlander 35 1.2 M-mount, and the whole thing weights 600g, but size-wise it's as large as the nex with the kit lens. of course that means it's larger than a compact camera, but I can still put the NEX in my bag/backpack without even feeling it.
now try do the same with a 5d2+85 1.2 (but even with a 50 1.4 - which you risk breaking if you dont use the hood btw)

the trick is considering the 3 dimensions, so it is true, NEX+kit is long because of the lens, but the height is really small compared to, say, X100 or Xpro1 or G1x. you can just position the NEX differently and it's still compact.

by the way, the patented lens looks small, but has no IS and is 5.6 at 45mm. that's still ok provided that it really is small.


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## RC (Feb 20, 2012)

Excuse me for coming off ignorant, but what is with all the hype over mirror-less cameras. I'm serious, what am I missing? I get the part of less mechanical, maybe higher shutter speeds (maybe not), but what about the loss of a "real" viewfinder? 

Yes, I know mirror-less have been around on and off for years, but I don't understand what market they're aimed at. Is this to compete with the P&S market, DSLR, market or its own? It seems to me they're targeted towards the hip, got-to-have-the-lastest, the in-thing, trendy market--at least that is what I get from the Sony commercials.

Please, someone enlighten me. ???


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## marekjoz (Feb 20, 2012)

RC said:


> Excuse me for coming off ignorant, but what is with all the hype over mirror-less cameras. I'm serious, what am I missing? I get the part of less mechanical, maybe higher shutter speeds (maybe not), but what about the loss of a "real" viewfinder?
> 
> Yes, I know mirror-less have been around on and off for years, but I don't understand what market they're aimed at. Is this to compete with the P&S market, DSLR, market or its own? It seems to me they targeted towards the hip, got-to-have-the-lastest, the in-thing, trendy market.
> 
> Please, someone enlighten me. ???



See Leica M9...


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## mkln (Feb 20, 2012)

RC said:


> Excuse me for coming off ignorant, but what is with all the hype over mirror-less cameras. I'm serious, what am I missing? I get the part of less mechanical, maybe higher shutter speeds (maybe not), but what about the loss of a "real" viewfinder?
> 
> Yes, I know mirror-less have been around on and off for years, but I don't understand what market they're aimed at. Is this to compete with the P&S market, DSLR, market or its own? It seems to me they targeted towards the hip, got-to-have-the-lastest, the in-thing, trendy market.
> 
> Please, someone enlighten me. ???



mirrorless with large sensor = bring a small 5d2 always with you every day, take pics if you need/want, no "oh god if only I had my dslr with me today look at what pic I could take now" anymore
but also no "oh god the only way I can take pics now is with my phone/shitty small sensor compact" anymore.

the nex 5n + lens weights less than the 5d2 body alone, and is smaller than _any_ canon APS-C+lens combination (probably any APSC dslr system in general).
+ other mirrorless systems are even smaller.


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2012)

Mirrorless is great. It is smaller size with lighter weight(hopefully). However, they are all with slower AF(Except Nikon 1). The following question is something for us to think about:
1. Can we live with slower AF speed?
2. Is the reduction in size of weight really that important?
3. Are we willing to pay a higher price for mirroless than the entry level DSLR.
4. Are we willing to buy a new set of lens to get a smaller size for the lens.
The following points are my ideal mirrorless:
1. keep the good ergoomics of the EOS DSLR. from my point of view, most of the exiting mirrorless are with poor
ergonomics.
2. Thinner body, such that M mount or even Lieca screw mountadapter can be used. 
3. Canon should make M ount, Leica screw mount, EF/ EF-s mount for their mirrorless.
4. A new set of lenses for the mirrorless.
5. AF will be as fast as the DSLR.
6. Sensor size will not be smaller than APS-C.


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## CarebbianTraveler (Feb 20, 2012)

My rebel camera with kit zoom is not much heavier than a mirrorless camera, and is already a bit too small for my hands. For me there are two types of cameras: Those who fit in my pocket, and those who don't.
The mirrorlss and the DSLR are both in the second category.
For the first category, I prefer cameras like the Lumix LX3.


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## mkln (Feb 20, 2012)

CarebbianTraveler said:


> My rebel camera with kit zoom is not much heavier than a mirrorless camera, and is already a bit too small for my hands. For me there are two types of cameras: Those who fit in my pocket, and those who don't.
> The mirrorlss and the DSLR are both in the second category.
> For the first category, I prefer cameras like the Lumix LX3.



my old 450d + 50 1.8 wouldn't fit where my nex now fits with spare room.


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## briansquibb (Feb 20, 2012)

CarebbianTraveler said:


> , and is already a bit too small for my hands.



I am afraid my hands are too big for the P&S - the series 1 fit me perfectly. I use a 40D as my P&S ;D


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## CarebbianTraveler (Feb 20, 2012)

mkln said:


> CarebbianTraveler said:
> 
> 
> > My rebel camera with kit zoom is not much heavier than a mirrorless camera, and is already a bit too small for my hands. For me there are two types of cameras: Those who fit in my pocket, and those who don't.
> ...



Sure not. But the difference is not big enough for me to buy a mirrorless. Especially not because all the EF(-S) lenses I have don't fit. If I wouldn't have a camera yet, I would probably also choose a NEX.


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## cm71td (Feb 20, 2012)

*Some advantages of mirrorless*



RC said:


> Excuse me for coming off ignorant, but what is with all the hype over mirror-less cameras. I'm serious, what am I missing? I get the part of less mechanical, maybe higher shutter speeds (maybe not), but what about the loss of a "real" viewfinder?
> 
> Please, someone enlighten me. ???



It looks like it will be APS-C which is a great start. If Canon learned lessons from other manufacturers, this could be very useful. All of the following are possible with mirrorless:

1. Phase detection Autofocus from the Nikon 1 (some pixels on the image sensor dedicated to phase detection autofocus). This allows for SLR autofocus speed AND use of the full image sensor for face detection and intelligent metering. It also allows for fast autofocus during video.
2. Controls designed for DSLR users. Like the X100 or G1X.
3. Compact size and weight. Will fit in a coat pocket with a pancake prime.
4. Some sharp pancake primes + EF/EF-S adapter.
5. Fast frame rate like the Nikon 1 (no mirror to move). This combined with in-camera HDR could be very useful.

Nikon has some great technology in the Nikon 1, but the made a fundamental mistake in their target audience:
The person who says, "I don't want to learn photography", and "I'm happy with the image quality and DOF of a small sensor", is the last person who wants to buy more lenses for a camera.

Nikon would have a big hit if they gave the Nikon 1 controls like an X100, and an APS-C sensor. Hopefully Canon has learned from Nikon's mistakes.


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## mkln (Feb 20, 2012)

*Re: Some advantages of mirrorless*



cm71td said:


> RC said:
> 
> 
> > Excuse me for coming off ignorant, but what is with all the hype over mirror-less cameras. I'm serious, what am I missing? I get the part of less mechanical, maybe higher shutter speeds (maybe not), but what about the loss of a "real" viewfinder?
> ...


there's probably some limitation in the phase-detect AF on the nikons.
the small sensor (high DOF) helps to focus faster. but the concept is good. canon should improve on that and build a system with some potential.


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## CarebbianTraveler (Feb 20, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> CarebbianTraveler said:
> 
> 
> > , and is already a bit too small for my hands.
> ...



I can get around with small cameras, no problem. And for landscape photography, I don't even need a viewfinder. But especially when I'm taking a lot of pictures, I also prefer a normal sized camera as the 5D2. And the weight is definitely not a disadvantage when you're in action. Just for carrying around.


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## psolberg (Feb 20, 2012)

> f/3.5-5.6



meh. boring.


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## ecka (Feb 20, 2012)

??? Who defined that mirrorless cameras must be small? I really don't understand that crazy desire to carry such expensive, fragile and dust sensitive equipment in your pockets. Why?
I want a normal comfortable size FF mirrorless with all the dials and buttons. Am I alone?


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## JoeBoe19 (Feb 20, 2012)

they will make mirrorless cameras as long as people will buy them - and people have already begun buying them.

please dont get rid of my viewfinder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mkln (Feb 20, 2012)

ecka said:


> ??? Who defined that mirrorless cameras must be small? I really don't understand that crazy desire to carry such expensive, fragile and dust sensitive equipment in your pockets. Why?
> I want a normal comfortable size FF mirrorless with all the dials and buttons. Am I alone?


no you're not. 

I'd love a 5dEVIL:
take the 5d2, remove the mirror, put swivel screen, reduce thickness of body, larger but shorter grip (but still, keep the grip), make it compatible with leica mount (just need a shorter distance to sensor, then adapter manufacturers will do their job).

done. not small, but smaller. not light, but lighter. especially if you consider the lenses.
image quality with small lenses that are not woth $10,000? ok, it'll be somewhat lower. but some picture is better than no picture.


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## CarebbianTraveler (Feb 20, 2012)

mkln said:


> I'd love a 5dEVIL:
> take the 5d2, remove the mirror, put swivel screen, reduce thickness of body, larger but shorter grip (but still, keep the grip), make it compatible with leica mount (just need a shorter distance to sensor, then adapter manufacturers will do their job).
> 
> done. not small, but smaller. not light, but lighter. especially if you consider the lenses.
> image quality with small lenses that are not woth $10,000? ok, it'll be somewhat lower. but some picture is better than no picture.



I have something pretty similar from Canon in my hands right now. The A-1, one of the last manual focus canon SLRs. It's much smaller than the 5D and even a rebel, but has a 24x36mm "sensor" size. It also looks much better than the new ones, but the handling is worse due to the smaller size.


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## kdsand (Feb 20, 2012)

As soon as I saw this I thought hmm g1x with nice big sensor ---- mirrorless lens. So now I gotta think there would also be a good sized sensor behind this glass. If not it would seem a step back for Canon.


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## DzPhotography (Feb 20, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> RC said:
> 
> 
> > Excuse me for coming off ignorant, but what is with all the hype over mirror-less cameras. I'm serious, what am I missing? I get the part of less mechanical, maybe higher shutter speeds (maybe not), but what about the loss of a "real" viewfinder?
> ...


not a good example imho. Leica M9 is rangefinder, not mirror-less. And also not affordable for most of the people. I don't understand the hype either, maybe it has to do with less bulky design and still interchangeable lenses. But most mirrorless systems do not have fast enough lenses for my use. Maybe the new Fuji X-Pro 1 will resolve that matter, but it's really expensive again...


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## c.d.embrey (Feb 20, 2012)

paulc said:


> Gimme an EF compatible body and a pancake prime for taking on vacation and I'll be a happy happy man.



You'd buy a bulky/over-sized camera like a Pentax K-01 ? http://pentaximaging.com/hybrid/K-01 A Canon CSC with an EF mount would have to be the size of a T3i without the Penta-mirror


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## kdsand (Feb 20, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> RC said:
> 
> 
> > Excuse me for coming off ignorant, but what is with all the hype over mirror-less cameras. I'm serious, what am I missing? I get the part of less mechanical, maybe higher shutter speeds (maybe not), but what about the loss of a "real" viewfinder?
> ...



I've been seeing some huge improvements regarding digital viewfinder tech. 
Now nobody start screaming..... good old optic will be around awhile yet.
I think a relatively good veiwfinder as accessory would make these much more viable and relevant.

Well that's me speculating.


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## c.d.embrey (Feb 20, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> I'm not so sure what the outcome will be but I think Canon seems to have pulled all the stops in miniaturizing the lens design. Typical back focus for EF lenses are in the range of 40-70mm range. But this one apparently has a "0.5mm" back focus. Which means an extremely rear plane ! Typically, a lens with a very close rear plane can be made smaller to cover the same image circle.
> 
> I wonder how this compares to other mirrorless systems or maybe even the Leica M system ? Anyone has any clues what are the back focus of other mirrorless systems like the NEX ?



18mm for the NEX. Here's a list of ALL lens mounts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_mount


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## marekjoz (Feb 20, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> marekjoz said:
> 
> 
> > RC said:
> ...



Pardon. Does it have a mirror? No? Then it's mirror-less. Rangefinder? OK. Why Canon couldn't? Rangefinder + AF via Liveview.
No affordable? True. Does it have cost so much? I don't think so. 

Example was to show how good mirrorless camera could be, not how expensive. And I think it might be cheaper if sth lke that was made by Canon.


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## DzPhotography (Feb 20, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> Pardon. Does it have a mirror? No? Then it's mirror-less. Rangefinder? OK. Why Canon couldn't? Rangefinder + AF via Liveview.
> No affordable? True. Does it have cost so much? I don't think so.
> 
> Example was to show how good mirrorless camera could be, not how expensive. And I think it might be cheaper if sth lke that was made by Canon.


Ok, if you see it in that way, it's mirrorless. But you can't compare it to the whole bunch of the other mirrorless systems. It's another type of cam it's a rangefinder...give it into the hands of someone who uses a mirrorless system for only P&S and they're completely lost... :


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## marekjoz (Feb 20, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> marekjoz said:
> 
> 
> > Pardon. Does it have a mirror? No? Then it's mirror-less. Rangefinder? OK. Why Canon couldn't? Rangefinder + AF via Liveview.
> ...



Certainly, that's right. The question is - will Canon make mirrorless like P&S and throw away entry DSLR or rather go Leica's way? Or both? 
I mean - mirrorless system is at least bodies + lenses. High end - rangefinder like Leica, low end - P&S but same lenses + EF-S compatible. Why not?


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## c.d.embrey (Feb 20, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> I agree. I am worried it will look like the Sony NEX system. Sure the body is small, but the lenses are still large because of the sensor. Not sure how miniaturizing the body helps when the lenses are still large. Just makes working with the body harder as it is small and has fewer external controls.



The small/light Sony NEX makes photography fun again. Until recently my big/bulky/heavy Canon DSLRs were used for paying jobs or test shooting, my walk-around-camera was an iPod Touch 4G. Now I'm using a NEX for walk-around AND some paying jobs. It's so light you hardly know your carrying it


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## unfocused (Feb 20, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> marekjoz said:
> 
> 
> > RC said:
> ...



I fully agree. Most consumers don't even buy an extra lens for their DSLRs, what makes anything think people will be buying extra lenses for these mirror-less boxes? And, who wants to invest in a completely new set of lenses anyway? 

The frustrating thing is this shouldn't be that tough. The Fuji X-10 is about 80% of the way there, and the Canon G1-X is also about 80% there. But, they both seem to have bungled the remaining 20%. Having more interchangeable lenses to invest in isn't a plus in my book. Give me a good viewfinder, decent resolution and a quality 2.8-ish lens that zooms from 28ish-100ish and I'll be there.


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## DzPhotography (Feb 20, 2012)

marekjoz said:


> DzPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > marekjoz said:
> ...


They'll make whatever they can sell the most of it....


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## c.d.embrey (Feb 20, 2012)

My fear is that Canon will treat their CSC cameras as a step-up from P&S, instead of a step-up from a 7D. With modern technology there is no reason for not building a Pro Quality CSC and Pro Quality Primes. 

Please. please. please don't give us Rebel quality CSCs with effing-kit-zoomz


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## Freshprince08 (Feb 20, 2012)

CarebbianTraveler said:


> My rebel camera with kit zoom is not much heavier than a mirrorless camera, and is already a bit too small for my hands. For me there are two types of cameras: Those who fit in my pocket, and those who don't.
> The mirrorlss and the DSLR are both in the second category.
> For the first category, I prefer cameras like the Lumix LX3.



Tend to agree with this, especially for guys. If it's big enough to require its own bag then there's not much difference in bringing a DSLR. Pocketable + 50mm equiv pancake lens, however, would be different!


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## DzPhotography (Feb 20, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I fully agree. Most consumers don't even buy an extra lens for their DSLRs, what makes anything think people will be buying extra lenses for these mirror-less boxes? And, who wants to invest in a completely new set of lenses anyway?
> 
> The frustrating thing is this shouldn't be that tough. The Fuji X-10 is about 80% of the way there, and the Canon G1-X is also about 80% there. But, they both seem to have bungled the remaining 20%. Having more interchangeable lenses to invest in isn't a plus in my book. Give me a good viewfinder, decent resolution and a quality 2.8-ish lens that zooms from 28ish-100ish and I'll be there.


+1 I fully agree. A cam like you describe it is on the top of my wishlist. Don't need extra lenses in my compact then


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## gmrza (Feb 20, 2012)

Kiran said:


> paulc said:
> 
> 
> > Gimme an EF compatible body and a pancake prime for taking on vacation and I'll be a happy happy man.
> ...



In order to be "compatible" with EF lenses, it is necessary to maintain the same distance from the mount to the focal plane as in an EOS (D)SLR. That doesn't help much for compactness - the xx0D range is possibly about as compact as you can get with an EF (well, really EF-S) mount.

Using an adapter to mount an EF (or EF-S) lens is a different discussion. - That is what Sony already does with its Nex cameras.

I believe it is very challenging for a camera manufacturer to build a mirrorless system that is really going to be revolutionary. In order to really compete, EVFs and in-sensor phase-detect AF will need to mature as technologies first. Canon probably also still needs deal with the challenge of how to collect light from a lens that is closer to the focal plane - because current sensors don't collect light which coming from extreme angles very well. - Just think of the ISO-fudging that Canon does with lenses like the 85mm f/1.2L when it is wide open. (I am not sure what patents Leica/Kodak own that may block Canon's progress in this respect.)


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## dr croubie (Feb 20, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> That is the start of the future of APS-C with its gradual move into the consumer arena. Imagine a mirrorless 7D equivalent and then wonder if there is a future for the DSLR 7D as well?



There already is, and it's called the NEX-7.
Sure, it's expensive, but it's there, it's APS-C, it's 24MP, and from what i've read, IQ isn't so bad either.
I love my 7D, but if I could go on a holiday, take one do-it-all-zoom (like EFs 15-85), a wide prime (like zeiss 21 or canon/samyang 14), and maybe a portrait (like my Takumar 50/1.4 is the size of a niftyfifty), I could leave the 7D at home and not worry about the weight.
I'd still keep the 7D, shooting birds on live-view is too hard (although i'm sure i could practise more) but mirrorless is the future for travel.


ps, M9 is MILC but not EVIL. M10 is rumoured to have live-view, then it will be both...


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2012)

DzPhotography said:


> marekjoz said:
> 
> 
> > RC said:
> ...


M9 is a good example of how good a mirrorless can be.
1. It is the only FF mirrorless.
2. It is the only small sensor (FF, APS-C APS-H included) that does not have an AA filter.
3. It is backward compatable with most lenses that are made by (or for) Leica since 1930's.
4. Fastest lenses (f 0.9 ) available.
5. Fast focus in the hand of the right person with manual focus.


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## marekjoz (Feb 20, 2012)

Rocky said:


> DzPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > marekjoz said:
> ...



Thank you! This is exactly what I'm talking about!

+1


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## ghosh9691 (Feb 20, 2012)

Wow!!! I am surprised that no one picked up on the problems with this rumor!!! Either this rumor is completely bogus, or the specs are incorrect... Assuming that this is an APS-C sensor, then 18mm will be 28.8mm equivalent in 35mm. Now, which 28mm lens has an angle of view of 36 degree? NONE. It will be more like 73 degrees. If we assume that the specs are correct, then to get a 36deg angle of view, the equivalent focal length in 35mm will be 70mm...giving a FOV crop factor of 3.88x - i.e. closer to a 2/3inch sensor.

Back focus distance of 0.5mm: Assuming that the translation is correct, I assume this means flange to focal plane distance. Of 0.5mm??? The back of the lens will sit flush on the sensor in that case. Make it interchangeable, and you will guaranteed damage the sensor when changing lenses 

None of this makes any sense. I think our desire for a Canon mirrorless is making us grasp at straws...


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## lol (Feb 20, 2012)

I didn't check, is the angle given half the field of view? Does the other end work out right on that assumption?

Back focus distance is from the rear of the lens, not the mount.


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## ghosh9691 (Feb 20, 2012)

lol said:


> I didn't check, is the angle given half the field of view? Does the other end work out right on that assumption?
> 
> Back focus distance is from the rear of the lens, not the mount.



Angle of view is generally specified for the diagonal...not in halves.

And a rear of the lens element sitting 1/2 millimeter from the sensor? just imagine the manufacturing tolerances that would be needed to prevent the lens from hitting the sensor...

Sorry, folks are still grasping at straws....wanting their desires to come true! There's nothing wrong with that, but I am still calling this lens posting as bogus...


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## maxxevv (Feb 21, 2012)

c.d.embrey said:


> 18mm for the NEX. Here's a list of ALL lens mounts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_mount



Thanks, I've already seen the table. It addresses the 'flange mount distance' not the 'back focus distance' of the lens since we do not know the flange mount distance of this lens, its moot ....


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## maxxevv (Feb 21, 2012)

ghosh9691 said:


> Back focus distance of 0.5mm: Assuming that the translation is correct, I assume this means flange to focal plane distance. Of 0.5mm??? The back of the lens will sit flush on the sensor in that case. Make it interchangeable, and you will guaranteed damage the sensor when changing lenses



They are different things. You're mixing them up. 

Canon EF Mount has a flange distance of 44mm. But most of its lenses have a 'back focus' of between 35-60mm. See the difference there ? 

Get to read a few more of the patents on those new EF lenses and perhaps you'll catch the groove.


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## ghosh9691 (Feb 21, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> ghosh9691 said:
> 
> 
> > Back focus distance of 0.5mm: Assuming that the translation is correct, I assume this means flange to focal plane distance. Of 0.5mm??? The back of the lens will sit flush on the sensor in that case. Make it interchangeable, and you will guaranteed damage the sensor when changing lenses
> ...



Yes, "back focus distance" is the distance from the rear-most lens element to the film (or sensor) plane. If it is 0.5mm as claimed, it means that the rear most lens element is sitting almost on top of the sensor.


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## maxxevv (Feb 21, 2012)

ghosh9691 said:


> Yes, "back focus distance" is the distance from the rear-most lens element to the film (or sensor) plane. If it is 0.5mm as claimed, it means that the rear most lens element is sitting almost on top of the sensor.



Yup that's the value .. at least that's what the translation says. Its possible and plausible as minimising the back focus distance is a means to minimising the overall lens package size too. But we never know really as it may indeed be an error somewhere .

Which was why I was asking if anyone has any idea the comparable back focus distances for the Sony NEX or the Leica M system to see if it made real sense. 

But 0.5mm is plenty of space really for machine tolerances. Typically, I work in the range of 0.025- 0.05mm clearances for parts of similar size.


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## ghosh9691 (Feb 21, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> ghosh9691 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, "back focus distance" is the distance from the rear-most lens element to the film (or sensor) plane. If it is 0.5mm as claimed, it means that the rear most lens element is sitting almost on top of the sensor.
> ...



For the Leica M, it is 27.8mm. For Sony NEX, it is shorter (that is why an M mount lens can be mounted on the NEX via adapter)...


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## simonxu11 (Feb 21, 2012)

非球面 4面=4 ASPH
Canon put 4 ASPH in a kit lens???


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## dr croubie (Feb 21, 2012)

simonxu11 said:


> 非球面 4面=4 ASPH
> Canon put 4 ASPH in a kit lens???



Pentax made the 18-55 kit lens on their K5 waterproof.
Stranger things have happened...


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## maxxevv (Feb 21, 2012)

ghosh9691 said:


> For the Leica M, it is 27.8mm. For Sony NEX, it is shorter (that is why an M mount lens can be mounted on the NEX via adapter)...



That is the flange mount distance Leica M Bayonet. Not the typical 'back focus' values of Leica M Bayonet lenses. :

Leica M39 screw mount has a different value, which has to be differentiated.


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## amy123 (Feb 21, 2012)

well done!


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## amy123 (Feb 21, 2012)

*custom iphone 4,4s case*


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## lol (Feb 21, 2012)

ghosh9691 said:


> Angle of view is generally specified for the diagonal...not in halves.
> 
> And a rear of the lens element sitting 1/2 millimeter from the sensor? just imagine the manufacturing tolerances that would be needed to prevent the lens from hitting the sensor...
> 
> Sorry, folks are still grasping at straws....wanting their desires to come true! There's nothing wrong with that, but I am still calling this lens posting as bogus...


Patent speak is a language of its own, combine that with this probably being in lens designer speak, they may express things differently than photographers expect. Using half of the angle of view would be comparable to MTF charts which show performance with distance from the centre. That it is doing the same in the other direction is redundant. I don't know if there is precedent of this in other patents though, so that might be one to check if anyone has time.

The (lack of) back focus distance may be a bit different for an interchangeable lens system, but could it also be a fixed lens in a G1 X like camera?


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## maxxevv (Feb 21, 2012)

Ok, managed to find the patent file for the Panasonic 45-190mm for m4/3. 

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fegami.blog.so-net.ne.jp%2F2011-05-14

Its shortest back-focus is ~22mm. And its flange distance is 20mm. 

The Olympus 10mm f/2.8 back focus is ~15mm 

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fegami.blog.so-net.ne.jp%2F2011-10-21

I doubt Canon will have a flange distance of less than 10~15mm for practical reasons. But a back focus of 0.5mm seems like a serious attempt at bringing the lens as close as possible to the sensor so as to reduce the size of the lens glass. If its indeed so, I think we'll see really small (comparatively) lenses for this class of mirrorless lenses that Canon is working on ! 

Exciting times indeed !


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2012)

maxxevv said:


> I doubt Canon will have a flange distance of less than 10~15mm for practical reasons. But a back focus of 0.5mm seems like a serious attempt at bringing the lens as close as possible to the sensor so as to reduce the size of the lens glass. If its indeed so, I think we'll see really small (comparatively) lenses for this class of mirrorless lenses that Canon is working on !
> 
> Exciting times indeed !


just the opposite. The back element of the lens will be BIGGER than the sensor for the 0.5mm back focus to work. You are right about the lens will be pushed way into the camera body to reduce the total volume of the lens and camera. In fact, this particular lens is a very interesting and the only lens that I know have 0.5 mm back focus.


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## dr croubie (Feb 21, 2012)

Rocky said:


> maxxevv said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt Canon will have a flange distance of less than 10~15mm for practical reasons. But a back focus of 0.5mm seems like a serious attempt at bringing the lens as close as possible to the sensor so as to reduce the size of the lens glass. If its indeed so, I think we'll see really small (comparatively) lenses for this class of mirrorless lenses that Canon is working on !
> ...



The rear element of my EFs 15-85 is only 10-15mm or so. I've got a FF wide-angle prime where the rear element is only 10mm wide. That works because the light rays have about 40-50mm to travel and diverge back out so that it hits the sensor.
Having a back focus of 0.5mm, you're right, the lens would pretty much have to be the exact size of the image circle. That's a 42mm diameter rear-element for a FF sensor, or 29mm for APS-C. The throat diameter of this lens mount is going to be as big, if not bigger than, EF (if it's an FF system eventually), even if the 'flange' is up to 10, 15, 20mm away...


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2012)

dr croubie said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > maxxevv said:
> ...


The "throat diameter" of EF mount is about 45mm. Therefore there is more than enough room for the large rear element. In fact, Canon will make the mount larger than EF such that an EF adapter can be used .


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## jpustin (Feb 21, 2012)

if they bring out a digital canonet I will seriously sell everything I have to get my hands on that piece of genius.


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## moreorless (Feb 22, 2012)

Does a short back focus distance merely reduce the size of the lens infront of the flange by the same amount or is there an extra benefit in lens size/IQ aswell?

Either way kit lens size does seem like its going to become one of the key battlegrounds for mirrorless, if Canon can bring a smaller one to the party along with the other innovations rivals have come up with then holding off release may proove to be a smart move. Collapsible zooms are one way to reduce size but only when the camera isnt in use and you lose the ability to manually zoom.

The problem with FF mirrorless is I'd guess that FF users are going to demand a much larger range of lenses, look at the problems Sony had with there FF DSLR in that reguard. With an ASPC mirrorless you really only need a normal zoom and a pancake prime to keep 95% of the market happy.


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## ecka (Feb 22, 2012)

moreorless said:


> ...
> The problem with FF mirrorless is I'd guess that FF users are going to demand a much larger range of lenses, look at the problems Sony had with there FF DSLR in that reguard. With an ASPC mirrorless you really only need a normal zoom and a pancake prime to keep 95% of the market happy.



There would be no problem with FF mirrorless if they'd make an OEM adapter for EF lenses and even FD/FL. + I'm sure that someone would produce Leica M adapters for such system.


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## briansquibb (Feb 22, 2012)

jpustin said:


> if they bring out a digital canonet I will seriously sell everything I have to get my hands on that piece of genius.



A Canonet D - the replacement for the G series


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## moreorless (Feb 22, 2012)

ecka said:


> moreorless said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



EF lenses are not going to provide the size savings people expect from wide/normal lenses though and would make them even longer, useful for macro/long tele/TSE perhaps but not the basis of a system.

Added to that are large appature AF zooms ever going to be compact enough to balance a mirrorless system? without them your dealing with a very different market, one that only currently exists in the very small/prenium M9.

Not saying such a market doesnt potentially exist but its clearly much more risky than mirrorless ASPC


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## ecka (Feb 22, 2012)

moreorless said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > moreorless said:
> ...



... and here we go again  . Don't you think that full frame mirrorless doesn't have to be a small camera? I mean, why should it be? "Compact large aperture AF zooms" ... why would you need such lens for a mirrorless camera? It makes no sense. Just buy a DSLR if you want it all balanced.


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## moreorless (Feb 22, 2012)

ecka said:


> ... and here we go again  . Don't you think that full frame mirrorless doesn't have to be a small camera? I mean, why should it be? "Compact large aperture AF zooms" ...



Size reduction has thus far been the key selling point of all mirrorless systems, it doesnt mean the camera needs to be tiny like the NEX but I'd guessing most potential users wouldnt want something much larger than an M9.



> why would you need such lens for a mirrorless camera?



For exactly the same reasons you'd want one on a DSLR.



> It makes no sense. Just buy a DSLR if you want it all balanced.



..and if the the vast majority of users do deside they want that balance and get a DSLR instead such a mirrorless system is not going to be very sucessful is it? 

I'm just pointing out that a FF mirrorless is a much riskier move than an ASPC one because it would be unable to target an existing large market with a smaller system. The majority of ASPC users are happy with an already small kit zoom lens and maybe a small fast prime and/or a slowish tele zoom. FF users on the other hand have gotten used to many larger lenses that are going to be more difficult to balance with a smaller mirrorless system.


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## ecka (Feb 22, 2012)

moreorless said:


> ecka said:
> 
> 
> > ... and here we go again  . Don't you think that full frame mirrorless doesn't have to be a small camera? I mean, why should it be? "Compact large aperture AF zooms" ...
> ...



Yes, M9 is big enough, but I would like a better grip.



> > why would you need such lens for a mirrorless camera?
> 
> 
> 
> For exactly the same reasons you'd want one on a DSLR.



Is there any non-FF mirrorless system which has such lens to offer?



> > It makes no sense. Just buy a DSLR if you want it all balanced.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and the vast majority of users are using crop DSLRs for telephoto because getting the same reach with FF camera would be too big, too heavy, too expensive.
You are right, FF mirrorless is not for everybody, just like any FF DSLR. However, I think that it would be very successful.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2012)

moreorless said:


> Added to that are large appature AF zooms ever going to be compact enough to balance a mirrorless system? without them your dealing with a very different market, one that only currently exists in the very small/prenium M9.
> 
> Not saying such a market doesnt potentially exist but its clearly much more risky than mirrorless ASPC



" Large aperture", "Zoom" "Compact", "AF" are mutually exclusive. It is just physically impossible to make it even for APS-C, let alone FF.
M9 is not very small 5.5" in length while the T3i is 5.2" in length.
There is actually an optional grip available for M9, that will make the size even larger.


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