# Canon 4K Concept Camera



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 1, 2010)

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<p><strong>From Philip Bloom

<span style="font-weight: normal;">Videographer Philip Bloom is at the Canon EXPO and snapping away.</span></strong></p>
<p>His blog shows off the 4K concept video camera from Canon.</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><strong>Some Info (Image from Philip Bloom)

<a href="http://philipbloom.net/2010/09/01/canon-4k-concept-camera-and-first-images-from-canon-expo-on-ny/"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-4946" title="p_2592_1936_639EEBC3-182A-4241-80F2-4BF25AD065D2" src="http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/p_2592_1936_639EEBC3-182A-4241-80F2-4BF25AD065D2.jpeg" alt="" width="479" height="640" /></a> </strong></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://philipbloom.net/2010/09/01/canon-4k-concept-camera-and-first-images-from-canon-expo-on-ny/">Check out Philip’s full reports as they unfold.</a></strong></p>
<p><em>thanks jay</em></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://philipbloom.net/2010/09/01/canon-4k-concept-camera-and-first-images-from-canon-expo-on-ny/"></a><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r </strong></p>
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## kubelik (Sep 1, 2010)

what lens is that mounted on the 4K concept? I think I'm seeing 7-140mm, but that sounds ridiculous ...


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## jaybirch (Sep 1, 2010)

Yea... 22-440mm (35mm equiv.)

Now that would be seriously stunning for sports work!

This is jaw dropping news.


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## kubelik (Sep 1, 2010)

the only issue with a 4K video camera ... is you can't really get the full use of that in playback, at least not on any consumer screen.

and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon, since everything is just recently getting full swing into 1080p HD; doubt we'll be watching Netflix movies in 4K for a long time


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## elektrownik (Sep 1, 2010)

Lens Epic WIN ! 24-480 mm f1.8-3.8 ;D


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## Sebastian (Sep 1, 2010)

elektrownik said:


> Lens Epic WIN ! 24-480 mm f1.8-3.8 ;D



Not at all. Have a look at the fancy, already existent Canon DIGISUPER 100AF.
(Which, I have to admit, is built for a slightly smaller sensor - ~1/2" instead of 2/3")


Regards,

Sebastian


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 1, 2010)

kubelik said:


> the only issue with a 4K video camera ... is you can't really get the full use of that in playback, at least not on any consumer screen.
> 
> and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon, since everything is just recently getting full swing into 1080p HD; doubt we'll be watching Netflix movies in 4K for a long time



Motion picture film cameras have been shooting *4K plus film* for years. That's why 4K is the Holy Grail for digital. Think of this prototype as a *digital cinema camera*, not as a *television camera*.


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## kubelik (Sep 1, 2010)

c.d.embrey said:


> kubelik said:
> 
> 
> > the only issue with a 4K video camera ... is you can't really get the full use of that in playback, at least not on any consumer screen.
> ...



c.d., good point about this technology being aimed more for professional filmmaking ... but the concept design certainly makes it look like its eventually intended for the consumer market, although it will be many years before that tech is cheap enough to get into the consumer price range. maybe by then we'll have 4K TVs to go along with it


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## PaulRivers (Sep 1, 2010)

This is all my opinion - I am no expert. I'm feeling to lazy to rewrite it with different phrasing, so I'm just adding a disclaimer.

I doubt we're going to see 4k tv's (there's already a bunch of claims that you can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p unless you have a really, really big tv, and aren't sitting to far back from it.

But the big advantage is the ability to crop after you shoot the video. Say you film the scene with no zooming. Then later you want that "slow zoom" effect. Are you going to hire a bunch of actors to come back a refilm it? With higher resolution - you just crop in slowly via post-processing. And you don't lose any effective resolution because bluray and hdtv isn't going to see more than 1080p anyways.

Or sometimes something that seemed like a neat effect at the time doesn't work later - you thought slowly zooming in would be really great, unfortunately it turns out that the scene before it and the scene after it ended up doing the same thing, and the effect is now waaaaaay to much and distracting. With more pixels you can post-process your scene to not have any zoom, without losing resolution (because again you started with more resolution than you needed).

Or imagine that you shot it with everyone in the frame, but it's more intense with just two of the people...you get the idea.


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## jaybirch (Sep 1, 2010)

If you read the full article... the 4k prototype camera was hooked up to a prototype 4K TV.

With these very large screens, yyou can defeintly see the difference... although I agree it will not be with us for some time (nor will the camera). 

4K in the home will be dictated by sports networks. That would require a direct to broadcast 4K camera.


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## RichT (Sep 1, 2010)

kubelik said:


> the only issue with a 4K video camera ... is you can't really get the full use of that in playback, at least not on any consumer screen.
> 
> and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon, since everything is just recently getting full swing into 1080p HD; doubt we'll be watching Netflix movies in 4K for a long time



4K (or at least 3K) sounds about right if you want to squeeze as much quality as you can onto an HDTV. As far as I know it's using a Bayer sensor, not a 3CCD or 3MOS. So oversampling then downscaling should give you a great 1080p IQ, certainly better than a Bayer camera which has a native 1920x1080 resolution


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## MadButcher (Sep 2, 2010)

Is 4K the same as QuadHD?


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## earthrise (Sep 2, 2010)

In the meantime they could put that sensor into a compact camera body  Maybe combine with some other tech so it that the live view feed is buffered and hitting shutter button grabs a few seconds worth of stills, i.e. you can take the picture of the scene before you press the shutter  Add in the two prism mirror box and voila!


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 2, 2010)

Sebastian said:


> Have a look at the fancy, already existent Canon DIGISUPER 100AF.


[rant] Oh great, Canon is spelling it "tripple." I guess soon enough Canon will start adoping the consumer-friendly spelling "focussed" too as a trademark term. [/rant]

Okay, got that bee out of the bonnet...

I get the "4K plus" film argument. I think 4K dots of usable horizontal resolution from most film is a bit of a stretch...though the grain gives it a nice character we're not seeing with digital anymore.

I have a bad habit of commenting, every time Philip Bloom points out that PL mount is a necessity for these cameras (or at least for professional acceptance of them), that Canon probably doesn't plan to use a mount standard they don't control for such a camera. The interesting lens on this concept camera bolsters that argument...only a day after I dropped a thread in the Lenses section with no replies - well, good timing on Canon's part. In all seriousness I would like to see autofocus tilt control in lenses...but that's for another day.


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## MadButcher (Sep 2, 2010)

On the 4th picture, 2nd man on the right, as I can see standing between Chairman & CEO Fujio Mitarai and President & COO Tsuneji Uchida, is our Chairman Board Executive Directors of the dutch Canon-OcÃ©: Rokus van Iperen.
Canon is working realy hard now it seems, will be exciting times for us to come.


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## funkstar (Sep 2, 2010)

MadButcher said:


> Is 4K the same as QuadHD?


Yup, same thing, 4K is just the original way of refering to that resolution before "everything is better is you stick HD in the name" came along 

Going by the _look_ of this concept, I bet the designers intend this to become a consumer (or at least enthusiast/pro-sumer) camera a lot quicker than most would expect. If it was a purely pro unit, it would look a lot more like that XF105 they announced. To me the styling is closer to their SLR line than their pro camera line.

To me, this makes sense. I can see 4K cameras becoming available to enthusiasts far sooner than output devices capable of showing native 4K footage. Just like full HD camcorders have been available for years (See the Sanyo HD1000/2000 line) yet there is not a single PC at work that will play it. My PCs at home can handle it, but very few of any of my friends systems could handle playback of the 1080p/60fps footage I can record quite easily.

I also agree with PaulRivers, I would love to record in 4K even if I had no way to show it in the native resolution, the edited down footage is always going to end up as SD or HD. But it's always good to have the rull res archived for the future.


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## MadButcher (Sep 2, 2010)

Sure true!
Even more important: colorspace and dynamic range.

I now have my 22" CRT in 1920x1440 mode.
Maybe I buy a 27" Apple LED Cinema with 2560x1440.
Not for the resolution, but for the colours!

I think it would be nice to have a tablet with a hi-res IPS-panel that can communicate with EOS DSLR's.
Not only for viewing, but also also use it for remote shooting.
Also with wifi-n, something that should maybe become a standard in dslr's.
I think that cables are outdated in the future.


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## Freeze_XJ (Sep 2, 2010)

I'd be happy if 4K monitor panels actually appeared, but for now, the biggest 'normal' display is 30" 2560x1440, which is still a bit more than what i'm staring at. 4k film is nice too, but since the output will come to us in 1080p at best, i doubt we'll be seeing much bigger TV screens. 4K @ home might be nice, but only for those who are really serious about video, as like funkstar said, you'll need a big computer to get through all that data. 
What i like most though, is that they managed to make this thing actually shoot decent pictures, which means that if you can upscale this to current APS-whatever sensors , the ISO might improve as well. Yes, it's a long shot, and unless Nikon or RED really threatens to roll Canon, we won't see it until the 5D5, but still, the option is there. (RED does make its 4k sensors in APS-C to full-frame  )


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 3, 2010)

I think the market's going to move faster than it coming out on the 5D5 (realistically - that's like 15-25 years from now), if the 5D category survives long enough to get a fifth revision. As long as people use EOS series cameras for movies, there will be incentive for Canon to push up the spec on video through those cameras, though that butts head with their pro video line - a bit. Right now Canon probably is focused on making use of DSLR sensors and larger for video cameras that are intended to be such...like the announced camcorder (somewhat), especially like this 4K which won't come out anywhere near a DSLR price. Which is not to say 4K won't ever come to DSLRs, if the category even survives long enough (maybe they'll just be DSLs by then...). That being said, I would like the priority for HDSLRs ought to be on the rolling shutter, framerate expansion, and undersampling (well, along with the other obvious ones like noise, DR, and color reproduction).


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## Freeze_XJ (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm more afraid of things coming the other way  


> In September 2008, Jim Jannard made several announcements on the RedUser forum:
> * The first, posted on September 8, announced a "DSLR-killer" that was tentatively referred to as "DSMC, a Digital Still and Motion Camera".


Considering that they are planning a nice 6K camera (18 megapixels, Full Frame), and thinking that it's quite easy to make the thing spew stills as well, the threat might come from them... The only problem now is size. (RED thingies are still bulky, far worse than even an 1D). Sony is likely to continue its cameras as well, and they have video experience on all terrains (they make quite nice professional cameras too  ) 
If Canon wants to, the 5D3 can have 4K video, the 1D4 too (throw in 2x digicV, and the framerate problem is solved. The data problem will be another, since writing 20-30 MB/second is tough). From then on, i expect hybrid cameras, that can record movies as well as images. We'll see, but i really hope we're living in interesting times.


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## ArtTwisted (Sep 3, 2010)

Freeze_XJ said:


> I'm more afraid of things coming the other way
> 
> 
> > In September 2008, Jim Jannard made several announcements on the RedUser forum:
> ...



Problem is RED lies about there camera resolution. 6K does not mean the same to the photo world as it does to red.


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 5, 2010)

Well, if somebody doesn't know the 6K refers to lines of horizontal resolution, now's their chance to get on board. Besides, in the DSLR world we usually talk about total megapixels instead anyway.

I'm no expert on RED (or anything else really!) but I am always wary of the company as it seems to announce a lot of products but then we don't get any releases for a few years. This kind of marketing behavior (announce something now that may come out years later so people don't gravitate to other formats) reminds me a bit of late-'90s Microsoft style behavior. Hell, when some of their cameras (which haven't been released) were announced, the 5D Mark II either hadn't been announced or was newly released.

I feel the RED products that are in the same resolution range as video-capable DSLRs are in trouble, because the DSLRs have volume and (almost certainly) price advantages over the RED products. The REDs may have a better lens mount, but it's not impossible to put a PL mount adapter on a EOS body either.


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## Freeze_XJ (Sep 6, 2010)

I'm not an expert either, but i've seen some results from the Red one, and that looked good  4K is a lot of pixels, and it's out for a few years now. Yes, their pre-announcing is annoying every now and then, but on the other hand, Canon sometimes surprises you with an upgrade just after buying their now-dethroned champion... We can just hope that Red gets its production lines running smoother over time, and that they keep things as modular as they are.
Yes, they do count their pixels in odd ways, but 6K is at least 6000 pixels horizontally, and even if they use very wide sensors, that still makes them 2500 pixels high, giving them 15 megapixels. With APS-C that puts em straight into Canon country. 


> I feel the RED products that are in the same resolution range as video-capable DSLRs are in trouble, because the DSLRs have volume and (almost certainly) price advantages over the RED products.


 They do have the volume advantage, but they're still cameras tuned towards video, instead of the other way round. Red has shown already that they just want to make a good videocamera, and they have no high-end business to protect. How long did it take Canon to implement 1080p 30fps on their DSLRs, while every pocket camera could do so easily? The knowledge was there, they could've put it in the 30D if they wanted, but they didn't. That's what frustrates me every now and then, so i hope Red, Sony and some others stir this market, so soon everyone has 4K+ in their camera, and we can pick one that suits us.


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## Osiris30 (Sep 7, 2010)

Freeze_XJ said:


> I'm not an expert either, but i've seen some results from the Red one, and that looked good  4K is a lot of pixels, and it's out for a few years now. Yes, their pre-announcing is annoying every now and then, but on the other hand, Canon sometimes surprises you with an upgrade just after buying their now-dethroned champion... We can just hope that Red gets its production lines running smoother over time, and that they keep things as modular as they are.
> Yes, they do count their pixels in odd ways, but 6K is at least 6000 pixels horizontally, and even if they use very wide sensors, that still makes them 2500 pixels high, giving them 15 megapixels. With APS-C that puts em straight into Canon country.
> 
> 
> ...



I'm confused.. you hope Sony will stir things up, and then say Canon has high-end product to protect. Sony is as big or bigger on the high-end as Canon. Why do you think it took them so long to come to the DSLR video party in the first place. Sony is the last place I would look for top line video products outside of their commercial line. Canon (right or wrong) did still lead the DSLR video revolution (being the first widely accepted and usable product in that category).

Red and others will continue to have specialty niche products, but I really can't see any of Red's products ever being economically competitive with the meat of Canon or Sony or Nikon or anyone else's SLR product offerings.


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## Edwin Herdman (Sep 7, 2010)

Does the Red ONE still take as long to boot as it used to?


Freeze_XJ said:


> [Canon] do have the volume advantage [over i.e. Red Camera], but they're still cameras tuned towards video, instead of the other way round. Red has shown already that they just want to make a good videocamera, and they have no high-end business to protect.


A very good point, though it's worth mentioning that Canon does have video-focused products around this quality and price range already. There is the XF 300 / 305 and now the less expensive XF 100 / 105 camcorders - made and marketed more for broadcast journalism and high mobility than I suppose the Red ONE is, so a different segment. Volume advantage remains here as well.

A lot gets lost in the complexity of the marketing / focus of each camera fairly quickly. I think that Canon - or Sony - has the muscle to move into basically any segment Red wants to get into. We'll see how it turns out, but my money is not on the newcomer.


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## Freeze_XJ (Sep 10, 2010)

Osiris30 said:


> I'm confused.. you hope Sony will stir things up, and then say Canon has high-end product to protect. Sony is as big or bigger on the high-end as Canon. Why do you think it took them so long to come to the DSLR video party in the first place. Sony is the last place I would look for top line video products outside of their commercial line. Canon (right or wrong) did still lead the DSLR video revolution (being the first widely accepted and usable product in that category).


Sorry for the confusion, but i meant that Canon wants to protect its video business (with the XF series), so they're hesitant to implement high-end video in their DSLRs, especially the cheaper ones. Sony really wants marketshare in the DSLR market, and they have the video knowledge from their professional cameras. I hope (and think) they'll make cameras tuned towards video, thus hoping to attract attention. Nikon lacks the top-end videocameras (i think, i never really seen them), so they will have to develop the technology from scratch.

Edwin : my money isn't on Red as the final winner either, but there's no denying they do have money, and they're willing to give it a go. Doing just that, they can still push things forward, which is good (for us). They are aiming at the movie makers right now, but if they add still frames to their cameras, they suddenly improve their lineup by quite a bit. And then they compete with the 1D(s)4 directly, as well as the 5D2. They won't reach 60D or other consumer cameras, but the technology trickles down soon enough. If i'm correct on both points, Sony comes with cameras from below, Red from above... and Canon? Stuck in the middle, bound to beat both.


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