# Do you think the 90D is superior to the 7DII?



## ronaldbyram (Sep 3, 2019)

Hey First I know that the 90D is not out in consumers hands yet. But does anyone think that the New 90D is a good successor for the 7DII? Anyone see any features from the 7DII that should be in the 90D? I think the number of focus points should be? Plus Dual Slots and 2 digic 8 processors. thoughts?


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 3, 2019)

I imagine that the advancements of the last 5 years will render a 90d generally a better camera than a 7dii.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 3, 2019)

Short answer. No. long answer in some ways it will far surpass the 7d2 especially in sensor performance and if you care about it, video capabilities but In the areas that really matter to most 7d2 users it will fall short. Things like durability cannot be ignored as a massively important part of the attraction of a professional camera like the 7d2


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## ronaldbyram (Sep 3, 2019)

I just hope Canon releases a "SPORT" Camera. I can not see the 90D Stand up to the pounding (shutter Count) that I subject my 7DII too.


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## Sharlin (Sep 3, 2019)

Superiority is completely subjective. If you need a flippy screen, the 90D is superior. If you need a maximal shutter rating, then the 7D2 is superior. There’s no single universal camera comparison metric.


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## AlanF (Sep 3, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Short answer. No. long answer in some ways it will far surpass the 7d2 especially in sensor performance and if you care about it, video capabilities but In the areas that really matter to most 7d2 users it will fall short. Things like durability cannot be ignored as a massively important part of the attraction of a professional camera like the 7d2


In my limited experience, the majority of 7DII users are hobbyists although many pros do use one. Perhaps we move in different circles - outside of the Galapagos - as I tend to mix with hobbyists on my jaunts and you may be on the professional circuit in your work!


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## mangobutter (Sep 3, 2019)

Easily. By leaps and bounds. Honestly though DSLRs are dead. No reason to use one. And this is coming from an original 5D owner since 2005. I was there camped out in a tent. Original adopter and hardcore Canon user for over a decade. I really don't know who's buying into a DSLR these days other than those hesitant about mirrorless (in 2019). I stopped using DSLRs 3-4 years ago and never looked back.


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## Sharlin (Sep 3, 2019)

mangobutter said:


> I really don't know who's buying into a DSLR these days other than those hesitant about mirrorless (in 2019). I stopped using DSLRs 3-4 years ago and never looked back.



Funnily there are still about two DSLRs being sold for every MILC globally. In the US (and probably Europe), it's more like three to one.


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## Sharlin (Sep 3, 2019)

AlanF said:


> In my limited experience, the majority of 7DII users are hobbyists although many pros do use one. Perhaps we move in different circles - outside of the Galapagos - as I tend to mix with hobbyists on my jaunts and you may be on the professional circuit in your work!



Canon does classify the 7D2 as an "advanced amateur" body, using their nomenclature, although one step higher than the x0D. "Prosumer" is probably also as good a term as any. No doubt many pros have also bought 7D bodies, for use as a backup or second camera if nothing else.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 3, 2019)

AlanF said:


> In my limited experience, the majority of 7DII users are hobbyists although many pros do use one. Perhaps we move in different circles - outside of the Galapagos - as I tend to mix with hobbyists on my jaunts and you may be on the professional circuit in your work!


No. I am not a professional . But the attraction of a professional camera is strong. When I do travel to special places like the Galapagos or the polar regions I like the idea of a professionally built camera. Dual slots and a very rugged body give me a peace call of mind that a lower level of camera doesn't. Don't get me wrong. The 90d is tempting simply due to that sensor but I would forever be worried that it or a card may fail in a place I will never have the opportunity to return to.


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## AlanF (Sep 3, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> No. I am not a professional . But the attraction of a professional camera is strong. When I do travel to special places like the Galapagos or the polar regions I like the idea of a professionally built camera. Dual slots and a very rugged body give me a peace call of mind that a lower level of camera doesn't. Don't get me wrong. The 90d is tempting simply due to that sensor but I would forever be worried that it or a card may fail in a place I will never have the opportunity to return to.


I am paranoid about equipment failure. We travelled with a 5DSR and 5DIV, 2x 100-400mm II, Sony RX10 IV, 2 Canon chargers, multiple USB chargers, MacBook Pro, iPad Pro + 2 chargers, card reader, several extra cables, various types of adapters and spare batteries galore. But, we only used 1 card in each camera and downloaded each night and backed up on an SSD drive. We also both took shots. Card failure is the one area I don’t seem to worry about. Computer and chargers worry me as well as cables. It transpired that the MacBook failed to recognise our cameras and card reader but the tablet saved the day.


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## Don Haines (Sep 4, 2019)

While the sensor may be better, it has fewer AF points and does not have a body that is robust enough to use as a hammer. My 7D2 has survived a lot of salt spray, -30C temperatures, and rain. That’s what the camera is for!

You can’t compare a 5 year old camera designed for one purpose to a new camera designed for another.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

ronaldbyram said:


> Hey First I know that the 90D is not out in consumers hands yet. But does anyone think that the New 90D is a good successor for the 7DII? Anyone see any features from the 7DII that should be in the 90D? I think the number of focus points should be? Plus Dual Slots and 2 digic 8 processors. thoughts?



As an overall general purpose APS-C the 90D will be a better camera than the 7D Mark II. Heck, the 80D is a better general purpose APS-C DSLR compared to the 7D Mark II, mostly because of better image quality at low ISO (ISO 100- ISO 400).

As a replacement for the 7D Mark II and the things most 7D mark II users typically do with it, the 90D is not the answer.

* Lack of Spot AF and Single Point AF with 4 and 8 point expansion. As has already been said repeatedly on other threads here, 9-point Zone AF is not the same thing as Single Point AF with expansion.
* Build quality and durability in general and shutter durability in particular. The 60D/70D/80D shutters do not last as long as the 7D Mark II shutters do.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> As an overall general purpose APS-C the 90D will be a better camera than the 7D Mark II. Heck, the 80D is a better general purpose APS-C DSLR compared to the 7D Mark II, mostly because of better image quality at low ISO (ISO 100- ISO 400).
> 
> As a replacement for the 7D Mark II and the things most 7D mark II users typically do with it, the 90D is not the answer.
> 
> ...


It does have spot AF according to the official Canon site. I experimented earlier this year with 4 and 8 point expansion vs 9-point zone and decided to use the 9-points for birds in flight including hummingbirds, which I have been recently posting, and flying dragonflies. The shutter durability has been upgraded. According to Photography Life it is now rated at 200,000 cycles https://photographylife.com/canon-80d-vs-90d although TDP has it at 120,000.


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## 3kramd5 (Sep 4, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> You can’t compare a 5 year old camera designed for one purpose to a new camera designed for another.



Why not? I could compare a 5 year old camera to a jack-o-lantern if I wanted to!

Black, takes pictures, doubles as a cruddy hammer with potential risk to picture taking

Orange, delivers smiles, easily recycled after cooking delicious pie.

In all seriousness, I banged my 5Dii against a low ceiling once, and it dislocated the AF sensor. Service center fixed it with no cost, but I’d recommend against using your camera for carpentry


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 4, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I am paranoid about equipment failure. We travelled with a 5DSR and 5DIV, 2x 100-400mm II, Sony RX10 IV, 2 Canon chargers, multiple USB chargers, MacBook Pro, iPad Pro + 2 chargers, card reader, several extra cables, various types of adapters and spare batteries galore. But, we only used 1 card in each camera and downloaded each night and backed up on an SSD drive. We also both took shots. Card failure is the one area I don’t seem to worry about. Computer and chargers worry me as well as cables. It transpired that the MacBook failed to recognise our cameras and card reader but the tablet saved the day.


I know what you mean. My standard kit is the 7d2 and appropriate lenses in carry on. A 700d and kit lenses in checked luggage in case of a theft of the main gear. Laptop and two 1tb portable hard drives. Down load files every opportunity get and back up immediately. Wipe cards and go again


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## Joules (Sep 4, 2019)

AlanF said:


> The shutter durability has been upgraded. According to Photography Life it is now rated at 200,000 cycles https://photographylife.com/canon-80d-vs-90d although TDP has it at 120,000.


Unless Canon made another mistake in their material here, it is 120,000:

"Canon engineers have raised the durability rating of the EOS 90D’s shutter to nearly 120,000 cycles, up from 100,000 cycles on the previous EOS 80D model. Keep in mind, again, that this is a shutter now designed for 10 fps operation."

From: https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...ormance-features/eos-90d-performance-features

... what a huge URL


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## thomste (Sep 4, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> While the sensor may be better, it has fewer AF points and does not have a body that is robust enough to use as a hammer. My 7D2 has survived a lot of salt spray, -30C temperatures, and rain. That’s what the camera is for!
> 
> You can’t compare a 5 year old camera designed for one purpose to a new camera designed for another.


My 80D has survived the same conditions. Sea water, sand, falling on a rock etc... Still works as if it was new.


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## Maximilian (Sep 4, 2019)

Joules said:


> Unless Canon made another mistake in their material here, it is 120,000:
> 
> "Canon engineers have raised the durability rating of the EOS 90D’s shutter to nearly 120,000 cycles, up from 100,000 cycles on the previous EOS 80D model. Keep in mind, again, that this is a shutter now designed for 10 fps operation."


Thanks for pointing that out, Joules.



> From: https://....
> 
> ... what a huge URL


Maybe next time you'll use that Insert link (Ctrl + K) feature


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## Sharlin (Sep 4, 2019)

Joules said:


> From: https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/learn/education/topics/article/2019/august/eos-90d-performance-features/ [snip]
> 
> ... what a huge URL



Yeah, and even more ridiculously the above snipped version works just as well


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

Joules said:


> Unless Canon made another mistake in their material here, it is.....


Thanks for tracking it down. I remembered both figures being quoted and that it had definitely been upgraded. I hunted through the Canon site to find the figure as I always check every fact but I failed to find the Canon figure on the official specs page and so quoted both sources for either 120,000 or 200,000. The Canon 5DIV has a quoted life of 150,000 actuations so the 90D is getting closer to one of the favourite pro cameras. 
The 90D may not be up to the Armoured Personnel Carrier (pace Talys) ruggedness of the 7DII but it will be tougher than the perfectly competent 80D. Looking forward to the lensrental tear down.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 4, 2019)

I would dare say that(subject to actual use not showing inherent failures) that the 90d is the best all round crop sensor DSLR ever made. The best 'Jack of all trades' so to speak. I can't think of anything that is better.


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## haggie (Sep 4, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I would dare say that(subject to actual use not showing inherent failures) that the 90d is the best all round crop sensor DSLR ever made. The best 'Jack of all trades' so to speak. I can't think of anything that is better.



Based on the specs (....) I tend to agree with this.

But the original question was "_Do you think the 90D is superior to the 7DII_?". And for several reasons the 90D, being a superb allrounder, cannot match a 5-years old specialist like the 7D Mk II.

The main reasons that the 90D cannot even match the 90D *as an action camera *have already been mentioned in several earlier posts:
-ergonomics of the controls on the body
-customization, in particular the AF-system
-properties of the AF-system (e.g. number of AF-points, AF Point Expansion)
-durability of the camera body
-shutter life
All these properties make a difference when shooting fast moving subjects in changing circumstances (light, weather).

Off course, lacking these do not suddenly make the 90D useless in such circumstances, but they sure help you get the most from each situation that is thrown at the photographer. And in action photography you generally cannot influence the environment (lighting etc) that much.

But I think it is relevant to add what is more important for many 7D Mk II owners: the 90D is *no improvement* over the 7D Mk II (except for the DR if recent rumors prove to be correct). And an improvement is what is wanted by at least some of them: although a capable camera by itself, it is not the best cropped action camera around.

For me, the 7D Mk III would have been a no-brainer to purchase. It should have been technically possible for Canon to improve the 7D Mk II on DR and some of its AF-specifications (mainly accuracy for fast moving subjects and with subjects with less than ideal contrast). But it has become clear that Canon wnats to 'push' its action photographers towards either _Full Frame DSLR _or the _action-oriented mirrorless _that will probably be rumored soon after the excitement about the 90D has subdued.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

haggie said:


> ... what is more important for many 7D Mk II owners: the 90D is *no improvement* over the 7D Mk II (except for the DR if recent rumors prove to be correct)..


32.5 Mpx vs 20 Mpx is not an improvement? For those 7DII users who are often struggling for every mm of reach, and there are many of those, it's a 27% increase in resolution - your 400mm lens will have the reach of a 500mm.


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## Maximilian (Sep 4, 2019)

haggie said:


> ...
> The main reasons that the 90D cannot even match the 90D *as an action camera *have already been mentioned
> ...


Sometimes I ask myself, how (action) photos could have been taken 10, 20, 30 or even 40 years ago....

I think before the release of an 7DII anybody would have taken the 90D happily and gratefully* as an action camera*. (e.g. compared to the original 7D)

If one also takes the initial MSRP of both 7DII and 90D into account then those slight downgrades are less crucial. 
If those are a deal breaker to somebody that's understandable. But nobody is forced to buy a camera that isn't wanted.


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## Don Haines (Sep 4, 2019)

AlanF said:


> 32.5 Mpx vs 20 Mpx is not an improvement? For those 7DII users who are often struggling for every mm of reach, and there are many of those, it's a 27% increase in resolution - your 400mm lens will have the reach of a 500mm.


I have a 7D2 and love it. It has superior ergonomics in some areas over the 90D and is more robust. The 90D has articulated touchscreen, better and higher density sensor, and other improvements. 

If my 7D2 died, I would get a 90D.


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## bichex (Sep 4, 2019)

As the owner of both 80D and 7D2 cameras, I believe that 80D does not come near 7D2. Obviously I have not tried the 90D but it seems a good evolution of the 80D, getting a little closer in some aspects to the 7D2, beyond a better sensor. I think the question should be "do you think 90D is approaching what a 7D3 could have been" and for me the answer is a resounding "NO"


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I have a 7D2 and love it. It has superior ergonomics in some areas over the 90D and is more robust. The 90D has articulated touchscreen, better and higher density sensor, and other improvements.
> 
> If my 7D2 died, I would get a 90D.


Then, it's just a question of what dies first - you or your 7DII.


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## haggie (Sep 4, 2019)

Maximilian said:


> Sometimes I ask myself, how (action) photos could have been taken 10, 20, 30 or even 40 years ago....




That is not the issue I (implicitely) raised. Even at present there are a lot of situations that are a big challenge for the best action cameras. Specific combinations of lighting, high speed and very manouevrable subjects, etc. . And on the other hand, several situations that are more or less standard to shoot nowadays certainly were not so "_10, 20, 30 or even 40 years ago_". 
The point is that advancements in technology allow photographing situations that were almost impossible before that.
And I have run into situations where my camera/lens combo was the limiting factor.

For some, an acknowledged general purpose camera may be an imprvement enough for what they do and want.
But in the broader sense, the 90D is no improvement for me who is looking for a better cropped action camera than the 7D Mk II (although I understand AlanF's long standing argument for higher pixel-count). And I am not the only one with this.





Maximilian said:


> But nobody is forced to buy a camera that isn't wanted.




Indeed. It is a matter of personal requirements and priorities.
So if the brand I have been using for a few decades now does not bring me the improvemed DSLR that I look for, than all options to at least get a better DSLR than my present 7D Mk II are open.


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## Maximilian (Sep 4, 2019)

haggie said:


> ... Even at present there are a lot of situations that are a big challenge for the best action cameras. ...


To me - and in the past - challenging situations are mostly a challenge to the photographer and not to the equipment.
Of course, the better suited the equipment the less prepared the photographer has and had to be.
I prefer to be prepared - no matter how good my equipment is.
This allows me to even do BIF with a 200D/SL2. Although I admit that the hitrate would have been better with a 90D AF and FPS


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

AlanF said:


> It does have spot AF according to the official Canon site. I experimented earlier this year with 4 and 8 point expansion vs 9-point zone and decided to use the 9-points for birds in flight including hummingbirds, which I have been recently posting, and flying dragonflies. The shutter durability has been upgraded. According to Photography Life it is now rated at 200,000 cycles https://photographylife.com/canon-80d-vs-90d although TDP has it at 120,000.



The wings of hummingbirds and dragonflies move so fast that I doubt any AF system could focus on the wings instead of the main body of either.

It's good to see that they added Spot AF to the 90D. That was not listed in any of the "leaked' specs prior to the official release.

As far as the shutter durability rating goes, I'd place my bet on TDP being correct vs. PL. YMMV.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The wings of hummingbirds and dragonflies move so fast that I doubt any AF system could focus on the wings instead of the main body of either.
> 
> It's good to see that they added Spot AF to the 90D. That was not listed in any of the "leaked' specs prior to the official release.
> 
> As far as the shutter durability rating goes, I'd place my bet on TDP being correct vs. PL. YMMV.


TDP was correct. Rudy Winston had the info, which wasn't on the Canon official specs page. I gave both values as I didn't know which was correct. At least 120,000 is getting closer to the 150,000 actuations of the 5DIV. I thank Joules for getting the info.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The wings of hummingbirds and dragonflies move so fast that I doubt any AF system could focus on the wings instead of the main body of either.
> 
> It's good to see that they added Spot AF to the 90D. That was not listed in any of the "leaked' specs prior to the official release.
> 
> As far as the shutter durability rating goes, I'd place my bet on TDP being correct vs. PL. YMMV.


The AF of the 5DSR does seem to work for hummingbirds and dragonflies using the central zone.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

haggie said:


> Based on the specs (....) I tend to agree with this.
> 
> But the original question was "_Do you think the 90D is superior to the 7DII_?". And for several reasons the 90D, being a superb allrounder, cannot match a 5-years old specialist like the 7D Mk II.
> 
> ...



In all fairness, the 90D is much closer to the 7D Mark II than the 80D in terms of ergonomics. It has a joystick, a "Q" button, a second wheel (albeit smaller than the one on the 7D Mark II) on the back, pretty much identical controls on the top right of the camera, etc. Everything you use with the right hand on the 7D Mark II during shooting is there on the 90D.

Again, in all fairness the 90D does allow the three customizable AF settings previously unseen in the x0D line: tracking sensitivity, accel/decel tracking, and AF point auto-switching are customizable with the 90D. 

Your other three points are valid.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

AlanF said:


> The AF of the 5DSR does seem to work for hummingbirds and dragonflies using the central zone.
> 
> View attachment 186328
> View attachment 186329



That's exactly my point. The wings are moving too fast to distract the AF system from the central body. With other targets, such as large raptors, that is not the case when they are soaring.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

Maximilian said:


> To me - and in the past - challenging situations are mostly a challenge to the photographer and not to the equipment.
> Of course, the better suited the equipment the less prepared the photographer has and had to be.
> I prefer to be prepared - no matter how good my equipment is.
> This allows me to even do BIF with a 200D/SL2. Although I admit that the hitrate would have been better with a 90D AF and FPS



OK. Let's see you take an 8X10 view camera and go shoot the next Super Bowl?

The truth about whether gear matters or not is this:

_Gear doesn't matter... until it does._

The photographer always matters, but sometimes gear also matters. No matter how good the photographer is sometimes the limitations of the gear will prevent the photographer from being able to get a shot that the photographer is capable of getting with gear up to the task.


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## haggie (Sep 4, 2019)

Maximilian said:


> To me - and in the past - challenging situations are mostly a challenge to the photographer and not to the equipment.
> Of course, the better suited the equipment the less prepared the photographer has and had to be.
> I prefer to be prepared - no matter how good my equipment is.
> This allows me to even do BIF with a 200D/SL2. Although I admit that the hitrate would have been better with a 90D AF and FPS




There obviously is more to it than you want to acknowledge. 

Perhaps you are that good or perhaps you just do not need any advanced equipment for your photography. Then you are one of those people that could even uffice with the equipment from "_10, 20, 30 or even 40 years ago_" that you yourself mentioned earlier. Why get anything more advanced then?

If your arguments would be complete, then nobody would need a Canon 1DX or Nikon D5. And Canon and Nikon would not make them, because there is no need for them. Then we all would have your 200D/SL2 and perhaps the 90D you are so keen to promote for those that have too much money to spend.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> That's exactly my point. The wings are moving too fast to distract the AF system from the central body. With other targets, such as large raptors, that is not the case when they are soaring.


Michael, here are 3 shots taken at random from my birds-in-flight in the last fortnight in Ecuador focussing using the central 9 points. Would I use if they didn't work?


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

AlanF said:


> TDP was correct. Rudy Winston had the info, which wasn't on the Canon official specs page. I gave both values as I didn't know which was correct. At least 120,000 is getting closer to the 150,000 actuations of the 5DIV. I thank Joules for getting the info.



120,000 is still a lot closer to the 80D's 100,000 rating than the 7D Mark II's 200,000 rating.

In real world usage, the gap between the 60D/70D/80D shutter life and the 7D Mark II shutter life is even larger. Check out the Camera Shutter Life Expectancy Database.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Michael, here are 3 shots taken at random from my birds-in-flight in the last fortnight in Ecuador focussing using the central 9 points. Would I use if they didn't work?
> View attachment 186330
> View attachment 186331
> View attachment 186332



Let's also see the rejects when the large birds were flying perpendicular to the lens' axis with the wings level with the bird's bodies and the camera focused on the tip of the nearest wing.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Let's also see the rejects when the large birds were flying perpendicular to the lens' axis with the wings level with the bird's bodies and the camera focused on the tip of the nearest wing.


Unfortunately, I don't have any rejects as I focus the 9-points on the birds face. So I'll have to show a keeper of a Condor with a 10' wingspan.


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## Maximilian (Sep 4, 2019)

haggie said:


> There obviously is more to it than you want to acknowledge.
> 
> Perhaps you are that good or perhaps you just do not need any advanced equipment for your photography. Then you are one of those people that could even uffice with the equipment from "_10, 20, 30 or even 40 years ago_" that you yourself mentioned earlier. Why get anything more advanced then?
> 
> If your arguments would be complete, then nobody would need a Canon 1DX or Nikon D5. And Canon and Nikon would not make them, because there is no need for them. Then we all would have your 200D/SL2 and perhaps the 90D you are so keen to promote for those that have too much money to spend.


I was never saying that good or better equipment wasn't needed or wanted or helpful. I only wanted to state that a 90D is much better than your opinion in your post that I quoted first.
Of course there is a lot of equipment with features that makes a photographers life easier.
Your first post stated that a 90D was far away from beeing in league with a 7DII and this simply isn't true. It is better in MP and ISO performance.
It is (almost) the same in FPS and AF performance. It is slightly worse in dual card and maybe in built.
But it is also reasonably cheaper.
It is right that there are no dual cards. That's crucial to some and irrelevant to some others. To me dual card is only true if dual the same type, e.g. 1DXII.
It is right that no. of AF points and AF point spread is a little bit worse than with a 7DII.
Maybe 45 AF points are much worde than 65 with wider spread.
But I am sure that a lot prefer a lower price over some slightly better features.

As I said, if you don't like the 90D spec list, skip it. But if you don't like it you don't have to put into the dirt for some points that haven't improved over the 7DII or are slightly worse.

So there also is obviously more to it than you want to acknowledge.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Michael, here are 3 shots taken at random from my birds-in-flight in the last fortnight in Ecuador focussing using the central 9 points. Would I use if they didn't work?
> View attachment 186330
> View attachment 186331
> View attachment 186332



Besides which, the 5Ds and 5Ds R do not even have the 9-point Zone AF selection mode found in the 80D and 90D that I'm referring to. If you are using the central 9 AF points with the 5Ds R, you are using Single AF point with 8 point expansion. _That's the very AF area selection mode that I'm arguing the 90D needs in order to compare more favorably with the 7D Mark II._

Page 96 of the 5Ds/5Ds R manual:




Page 124 of the 80D manual.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Unfortunately, I don't have any rejects as I focus the 9-points on the birds face. So I'll have to show a keeper of a Condor with a 10' wingspan.
> 
> View attachment 186337



It looks to me like the sharpest point of focus of the condor is the far wingtip, not the face.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

Maximilian said:


> I was never saying that good or better equipment wasn't needed or wanted or helpful. I only wanted to state that a 90D is much better than your opinion in your post that I quoted first.
> Of course there is a lot of equipment with features that makes a photographers life easier.
> Your first post stated that a 90D was far away from beeing in league with a 7DII and this simply isn't true. It is better in MP and ISO performance.
> It is (almost) the same in FPS and AF performance. It is slightly worse in dual card and maybe in built.
> ...



We don't really know what the 90D's performance at various ISO settings is yet.

If it is anything like the difference between the 80D and 7D Mark II, the only significant difference in DR will be at ISO 400 and below. In terms of S/N ratio, the 7D Mark II performs better than the 80D above ISO 800. But we don't really know any of that yet about the 90D until it has been measured by independent testers.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Besides which, the 5Ds and 5Ds R do not even have the 9-point Zone AF selection mode found in the 80D and 90D that I'm referring to. If you are using 9-point AF with the 5Ds R, you are using Single AF point with 8 point expansion. _That's the very AF area selection mode that I'm arguing the 90D needs in order to compare more favorably with the 7D Mark II._
> 
> Page 96 of the 5Ds/5Ds R manual:
> 
> ...


I am using the Manual Zone AF from the pages you have posted, the one on the far right.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> It looks to me like the sharpest point of focus of the condor is the far wingtip, not the face.


It's focussed on the body. The beak and claws are sharp and if it was backfocussed the nearest wing would be blurred. And, according to your own postings and the manual, the errors from zone focussing are focussing on the nearest not the furthest.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 4, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I am using the Manual Zone AF from the pages you have posted, the one on the far right.
> View attachment 186339



OK. So I missed that it dropped from 12 to 9 points in the center of the AF array.

In my experience, I prefer Single AF with either 4-point or 8-point expansion over Zone AF for every use case I've tried both. It would be nice if the 90D gave us that choice.


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## AlanF (Sep 4, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> OK. So I missed that it dropped from 12 to 9 points in the center of the AF array.
> 
> In my experience, I prefer Single AF with either 4-point or 8-point expansion over Zone AF for every use case I've tried both. It would be nice if the 90D gave us that choice.


We are here to exchange information and useful tips and so these discussions are useful. It would be good if there was a choice. The central 9 points are particularly useful when you want to focus on a bird and there is a background that a single point might lock on to as your focus slips sideways. The 9-points go for the nearest subject, which is usually the bird. If the bird is perched, I'll use spot focus. But, I found for the hummers, which are darting around with a lot of foliage behind, I was losing focus too easily and so I used the 9-points.


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## ronaldbyram (Sep 6, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Funnily there are still about two DSLRs being sold for every MILC globally. In the US (and probably Europe), it's more like three to one.


Hey weather its DSLR or Mirrorless I dont care as long as it has the Speed for sports/Nature. I want a camera with the Speed and Buffer to allow me to shoot Raw instead of having to switch to JPG for fast sporting events


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## ronaldbyram (Sep 6, 2019)

I looked at the 90D manual and noticed a few issues that some missing issues.
1. # of focus points
2. Not Able for custom file names
3. 2nd SD slot.
4. unknown Burst speed.


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## AlanF (Sep 6, 2019)

ronaldbyram said:


> I looked at the 90D manual and noticed a few issues that some missing issues.
> 1. # of focus points
> 2. Not Able for custom file names
> 3. 2nd SD slot.
> 4. unknown Burst speed.


Just go to the specs on the Canon site https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...dslr-and-mirrorless-cameras/dslr/eos-90d-body and you will find details there for AF points, burst sizes etc.


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## cruso (Sep 7, 2019)

I had been waiting for the 7d3 to come out for ages and I am very disappointed to hear that it suppose to be shelved, and the 90d to take its place.to Which I don't think is a great improvement for the amount of years I have had my 7d2 to date and feel we are getting behind with our competitors ? Canon has not confirmed that this is true to my knowledge. unsure were to go now with things as weather to change all my gear


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## SteveC (Sep 8, 2019)

cruso said:


> I had been waiting for the 7d3 to come out for ages and I am very disappointed to hear that it suppose to be shelved, and the 90d to take its place.to Which I don't think is a great improvement for the amount of years I have had my 7d2 to date and feel we are getting behind with our competitors ? Canon has not confirmed that this is true to my knowledge. unsure were to go now with things as weather to change all my gear



We don't know any of that is true, so relax. The idea of replacing the 7D with the 90D was speculation only.


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## Sporgon (Sep 8, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I am paranoid about equipment failure.......
> Card failure is the one area I don’t seem to worry about. Computer and chargers worry me as well as cables. It transpired that the MacBook failed to recognise our cameras and card reader but the tablet saved the day.



Agreed. I'd have though that on a trip to the Galapagos there's more chance of you dying en route than failing to retrieve data from a card that the camera has been able to read.


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## AlanF (Sep 8, 2019)

Sporgon said:


> Agreed. I'd have though that on a trip to the Galapagos there's more chance of you dying en route than failing to retrieve data from a card that the camera has been able to read.


You are absolutely right! 9 flights, clambering in and out of zodiacs, and hiking over rocks as well as snorkelling among sharks.


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## cruso (Sep 8, 2019)

SteveC said:


> We don't know any of that is true, so relax. The idea of replacing the 7D with the 90D was speculation only.


Thanks for the reply Steve


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## JuanMa (Sep 8, 2019)

I would have replaced my 7Dii by this camera without any kind of hesitation if the 90D was released 3 years ago. Mi 7DII will be replaced by a mirrorless camera when Canon will issue an acceptable mirrorless APS-C model.


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## SteveC (Sep 9, 2019)

JuanMa said:


> I would have replaced my 7Dii by this camera without any kind of hesitation if the 90D was released 3 years ago. Mi 7DII will be replaced by a mirrorless camera when Canon will issue an acceptable mirrorless APS-C model.



Imagine the M6 mark II with an integrated viewfinder. Where would you consider that to fall short? I'm not trying to beat on you, but I'm a relative "noob" trying to learn from people more advanced than I am.


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## Joules (Sep 9, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Imagine the M6 mark II with an integrated viewfinder. Where would you consider that to fall short? I'm not trying to beat on you, but I'm a relative "noob" trying to learn from people more advanced than I am.


I don’t think the M series aims to ever be used as a 7D line replacement. Canon doesn't seem to market them as weather sealed at all, meaning they probably aren't. And if they stick with the 63mm lens diameter for all Ef-m lenses, we'll never see a super zoom or anything remotely fast and long in the native mount. We've also not seen a dual card slot M camera yet. 

The 7D people seem to be looking for something withstanding harsh environmental conditions that can be used reliably and comfortably with long lenses, mainly for wildlife. The premise of keeping size and weight to an absolute minimum while keeping the price reasonable does not seem compatible with that.


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## SteveC (Sep 9, 2019)

Joules said:


> I don’t think the M series aims to ever be used as a 7D line replacement. Canon doesn't seem to market them as weather sealed at all, meaning they probably aren't. And if they stick with the 63mm lens diameter for all Ef-m lenses, we'll never see a super zoom or anything remotely fast and long in the native mount. We've also not seen a dual card slot M camera yet.
> 
> The 7D people seem to be looking for something withstanding harsh environmental conditions that can be used reliably and comfortably with long lenses, mainly for wildlife. The premise of keeping size and weight to an absolute minimum while keeping the price reasonable does not seem compatible with that.



This makes a great deal of sense. The M series lenses have a width restriction (at least, so far). It's a design decision, not a physical constraint (Tamron, at least, makes a fatter 18-200 zoom), Canon would either have to get over this, or convince people to use an adapter. As for the weather sealing, nothing would preclude them from coming out with a weather-sealed model in the future.

And to--for the moment--broaden my scope a bit, the R is _almost_ weather sealed...apparently the viewfinder is the main flaw here.


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## koenkooi (Sep 9, 2019)

SteveC said:


> This makes a great deal of sense. The M series lenses have a width restriction (at least, so far). It's a design decision, not a physical constraint (Tamron, at least, makes a fatter 18-200 zoom), Canon would either have to get over this, or convince people to use an adapter. As for the weather sealing, nothing would preclude them from coming out with a weather-sealed model in the future.
> 
> And to--for the moment--broaden my scope a bit, the R is _almost_ weather sealed...apparently the viewfinder is the main flaw here.



The M6II announcement combined with the 7D1 on my desk got me dreaming of an Olympus E-M1X like EF-M camera: Smaller than the 1D series, a builtin grip for more batteries and weather sealing. And it will be announced together with an EF-M 300mm f/5.6 DO IS (weather sealed) and a new EF-EF-M adapter with a few more rubber seals. And a unicorn to put your kids on for action pictures.


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## AlanF (Sep 9, 2019)

Weather sealing "...well-sealed buttons and dials, not much else. That means, I think, that it will be fine in a misty rain for a while, but don’t get it saturated and don’t set it somewhere wet." Roger Cicala, https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/10/teardown-of-the-canon-eos-r-mirrorless-camera/


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## Don Haines (Sep 9, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> The M6II announcement combined with the 7D1 on my desk got me dreaming of an Olympus E-M1X like EF-M camera: Smaller than the 1D series, a builtin grip for more batteries and weather sealing. And it will be announced together with an EF-M 300mm f/5.6 DO IS (weather sealed) and a new EF-EF-M adapter with a few more rubber seals. And a unicorn to put your kids on for action pictures.


I want it to also have an AF system that is so good that you can even get an in-focus short of Bigfoot!


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## SteveC (Sep 9, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I want it to also have an AF system that is so good that you can even get an in-focus short of Bigfoot!



Bigfoot can only be photographed at an ISO of 256,000.


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## Otara (Sep 9, 2019)

I got to play with the 90d and M6 II yesterday. The increased M6 II framerate simply because it only has to move the shutter rather than a mirror as well is noticeable at 14fps, and the 30 raw burst is very interesting. Didnt notice any issues with the VF being an addon and the increased gap made it easier to put to the eye. The 90D just felt slow to me, but its probably a subjective feeling, I should have tried the 7D II there to compare (I have it but its been a week since I used it last). If anyone can get to an Canon Experience store, it really is pretty neat to be able to try it all out side by side.

The lack of sealing works both ways in that it becomes less relevant between the 90D and M6II, depending on the priorities of the other features. As Ive said in other threads I dont particularly worry much about sealing differences anyhow, unless its actually rated for depth or the like, I tend to be a bit binary in that area.

I felt kind of cheated in that the potential for a mirrorless APS-C for wildlife is really starting to be apparent, and both bodies were a bit frustrating as a result. A very strong goldilocks experience where bed number 3 doesnt exist yet.


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## SteveC (Sep 10, 2019)

Otara said:


> I felt kind of cheated in that the potential for a mirrorless APS-C for wildlife is really starting to be apparent, and both bodies were a bit frustrating as a result. A very strong goldilocks experience where bed number 3 doesnt exist yet.



I suspect the answer will be to come out with a full frame RF for wildlife--at 83 MP. It would offer an APS-C crop mode (like they offer different aspect ratios today), and you'd have 32 MP pictures as if they came out of an APS-C.

The other alternative would be a hugely jumped-up M series, but that would be quite a leap--weather sealing, faster lenses, etc.


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## Otara (Sep 10, 2019)

SteveC said:


> I suspect the answer will be to come out with a full frame RF for wildlife--at 83 MP. It would offer an APS-C crop mode (like they offer different aspect ratios today), and you'd have 32 MP pictures as if they came out of an APS-C.
> 
> The other alternative would be a hugely jumped-up M series, but that would be quite a leap--weather sealing, faster lenses, etc.



I was thinking jumped up M, but that would be awesome, although of course another pricepoint. The M vs RF separation is going to be interesting.


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## Rejay14 (Sep 17, 2019)

cruso said:


> I had been waiting for the 7d3 to come out for ages and I am very disappointed to hear that it suppose to be shelved, and the 90d to take its place.to Which I don't think is a great improvement for the amount of years I have had my 7d2 to date and feel we are getting behind with our competitors ? Canon has not confirmed that this is true to my knowledge. unsure were to go now with things as weather to change all my gear


What about used 1DX Mark 1's? They should be tumbling in price nicely


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## Sharlin (Sep 17, 2019)

Otara said:


> I got to play with the 90d and M6 II yesterday. The increased M6 II framerate simply because it only has to move the shutter rather than a mirror as well is noticeable at 14fps, and the 30 raw burst is very interesting. Didnt notice any issues with the VF being an addon and the increased gap made it easier to put to the eye. The 90D just felt slow to me, but its probably a subjective feeling, I should have tried the 7D II there to compare (I have it but its been a week since I used it last). If anyone can get to an Canon Experience store, it really is pretty neat to be able to try it all out side by side.



Should be noted that the 14fps H+ drive is basically "speed priority" mode, it does have continuous AF but prioritizes frame rate over focus accuracy. The 7fps H mode on the other hand is "focus priority".


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## cruso (Sep 17, 2019)

Rejay14 said:


> What about used 1DX Mark 1's? They should be tumbling in price nicely


not really not a crop camera ?


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## Grant Atkinson (Sep 18, 2019)

Just got my 90D a few minutes ago. It feels good in the hand so far. I have a 7D Mark 2, an 80D, and a set of Canon full frame bodies around, so am looking really forward to using the new 90D and also getting an idea of its strengths and weaknesses for my kind of uses


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## AlanF (Sep 18, 2019)

Grant Atkinson said:


> Just got my 90D a few minutes ago. It feels good in the hand so far. I have a 7D Mark 2, an 80D, and a set of Canon full frame bodies around, so am looking really forward to using the new 90D and also getting an idea of its strengths and weaknesses for my kind of uses


Grant, I have been doing a hands-on commentary here https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?threads/eos-90d-hands-on-review.37589/
The sensor is definitely an improvement over that of my now long sold 7DII and does outperform a crop from my 5DSR. I'd be very interested in how you find the AF performs compared with the 7DII. The centre point is definitely very fast and accurate but I haven't been able to test the zones properly yet because of a lack of compliant wild life.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 18, 2019)

Grant Atkinson said:


> Just got my 90D a few minutes ago. It feels good in the hand so far. I have a 7D Mark 2, an 80D, and a set of Canon full frame bodies around, so am looking really forward to using the new 90D and also getting an idea of its strengths and weaknesses for my kind of uses


Welcome back Grant! Your input has been missed and I have commented on it, I also link to your AF videos on YouTube whenever relevant, which seems quite a lot!


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## Michael Clark (Sep 18, 2019)

Rejay14 said:


> What about used 1DX Mark 1's? They should be tumbling in price nicely



If only the original 1D X had flicker reduction (it does not). That's a big deal when shooting sports under the lights.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 18, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I want it to also have an AF system that is so good that you can even get an in-focus short of Bigfoot!



You don't really want an in-focus shot of Bigfoot. He has a telekinetic ability to sense when that happens, and then you'll never be seen or heard from again.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 18, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Weather sealing "...well-sealed buttons and dials, not much else. That means, I think, that it will be fine in a misty rain for a while, but don’t get it saturated and don’t set it somewhere wet." Roger Cicala, https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/10/teardown-of-the-canon-eos-r-mirrorless-camera/



Roger goes into even more detail in this blog entry:

*About Getting Your Camera Wet… Teardown of a Salty Sony A7sII*

(The below is quoted from the linked blog entry)

Here’s a list of bad things that we’ll discuss.


Camera manufacturers market their equipment as weather resistant. But if you get water inside the camera the warranty is void. So that’s pretty much “we guarantee it will work unless it breaks.”
People think weather resistant means waterproof because they want to believe that.
Service Centers play the impact/moisture damage card so much that everyone assumes they are full of …shirt… when they say so.
There are two kinds of photographers: Those who have ruined a camera from water damage and are careful about water and see #2.
Most service centers won’t work on a water damaged camera, even if you pay them. Some won’t even open it up to look inside if they see evidence on the outside.


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## Don Haines (Sep 19, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> “Camera manufacturers market their equipment as weather resistant. But if you get water inside the camera the warranty is void. So that’s pretty much “we guarantee it will work unless it breaks.”



I figure that if it does not have underwater shooting modes, then it is not waterproof


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## Michael Clark (Sep 19, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> I figure that if it does not have underwater shooting modes, then it is not waterproof



Those are Roger Cicala's words from the linked blog entry, not mine.


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## stevelee (Sep 19, 2019)

I’m reminded of watches I have had that were good down to 10 meters, but you shouldn’t wear them scuba diving. I wondered what you’d be doing 10 meters under water otherwise.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 19, 2019)

stevelee said:


> I’m reminded of watches I have had that were good down to 10 meters, but you shouldn’t wear them scuba diving. I wondered what you’d be doing 10 meters under water otherwise.


Snorkeling, it's only 33 ft!


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## Grant Atkinson (Sep 19, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Welcome back Grant! Your input has been missed and I have commented on it, I also link to your AF videos on YouTube whenever relevant, which seems quite a lot!


Thanks Private By Design, and I always appreciate your support with the video and autofocus stuff , and I will head over to Alan F post on the 90D


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## Squirl033 (Sep 19, 2019)

I've been hoping for a 7D Mk III for the past year. Based on what I've read, the 90D is not a _bad_ camera, by any stretch, but neither is it a real replacement for the 7D2. It's not as rugged, has 20 fewer AF points, lacks the dual card slots and 200k shutter life of even the 5-year-old 7D2. it just doesn't make business sense for Canon to kill off what was one of their best selling cameras and try to pawn off an updated 80D as a replacement for a pro-grade camera like the 7D2. I continue to hold out hope that Canon will release a true 7D Mk III next year; there is surely enough demand for it. I'd like to think they're just taking their time to make sure it ticks all the boxes for action/sports/wildlife shooters: improved resolution, perhaps the 32Mp sensor just released in the 90D; the AF system from the 1DxII (or 1DxIII) for faster focus, better low-light focus accuracy, and improved AI Servo tracking; significantly improved low-light/high ISO performance; 10-12 fps... dual Digic 8s would allow fast throughput even at 28-32Mp; dual card slots for backup recording; and proper weather sealing which the 90D seems to lack. Yeah, I know, that's quite a wish list, but those are features I'd love to see in a replacement for the 7D2. 

All that said, if worst comes to worst, and Canon DOES abandon millions of 7D2 shooters who are eagerly awaiting a viable upgrade, I suppose the 90D could be pressed into service as a second-rate substitute, since it'd be cheaper than selling off my Canon gear and converting to Nikon... though the latter might be tempting. The 90D seems like it would address a FEW of the things I'd like to see in my next crop body, even though it'd be a significant step backward in terms of AF options and overall durability. But I'm gonna hold out a while longer and see if Canon is really foolish - or arrogant - enough to give the finger to millions of enthusiast and pro shooters and bail out of the high-end crop-sensor DSLR market, or if they're perhaps just taking their time, since the 7D2 was so successful, they want to make sure they get the Mk III right...


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## dslrdummy (Sep 19, 2019)

Squirl033 said:


> I've been hoping for a 7D Mk III for the past year. Based on what I've read, the 90D is not a _bad_ camera, by any stretch, but neither is it a real replacement for the 7D2. It's not as rugged, has 20 fewer AF points, lacks the dual card slots and 200k shutter life of even the 5-year-old 7D2. it just doesn't make business sense for Canon to kill off what was one of their best selling cameras and try to pawn off an updated 80D as a replacement for a pro-grade camera like the 7D2. I continue to hold out hope that Canon will release a true 7D Mk III next year; there is surely enough demand for it. I'd like to think they're just taking their time to make sure it ticks all the boxes for action/sports/wildlife shooters: improved resolution, perhaps the 32Mp sensor just released in the 90D; the AF system from the 1DxII (or 1DxIII) for faster focus, better low-light focus accuracy, and improved AI Servo tracking; significantly improved low-light/high ISO performance; 10-12 fps... dual Digic 8s would allow fast throughput even at 28-32Mp; dual card slots for backup recording; and proper weather sealing which the 90D seems to lack. Yeah, I know, that's quite a wish list, but those are features I'd love to see in a replacement for the 7D2.
> 
> All that said, if worst comes to worst, and Canon DOES abandon millions of 7D2 shooters who are eagerly awaiting a viable upgrade, I suppose the 90D could be pressed into service as a second-rate substitute, since it'd be cheaper than selling off my Canon gear and converting to Nikon... though the latter might be tempting. The 90D seems like it would address a FEW of the things I'd like to see in my next crop body, even though it'd be a significant step backward in terms of AF options and overall durability. But I'm gonna hold out a while longer and see if Canon is really foolish - or arrogant - enough to give the finger to millions of enthusiast and pro shooters and bail out of the high-end crop-sensor DSLR market, or if they're perhaps just taking their time, since the 7D2 was so successful, they want to make sure they get the Mk III right...


I would have liked something closer to a 7D2 upgrade too, but I doubt we'll be getting one in DSLR form. I will go for a 90D because I need a new body for a trip next May and I won't be in the market for a 1DXiii or a mirrorless.
Millions of 7D2 shooters? How many copies do you reckon they've sold?


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## Squirl033 (Sep 19, 2019)

dslrdummy said:


> I would have liked something closer to a 7D2 upgrade too, but I doubt we'll be getting one in DSLR form. I will go for a 90D because I need a new body for a trip next May and I won't be in the market for a 1DXiii or a mirrorless.
> Millions of 7D2 shooters? How many copies do you reckon they've sold?


I don't have actual figures, so "millions" may be a bit of an exaggeration, but remember, the Mk II has been on the market for almost 5 years now, and it's one of Canon's most successful APS-c cameras. I wouldn't be at all surprised if global sales numbers have been well into 7 figures. And while mirrorless cameras are getting all the hype these days, they're really nothing more than the old digicams with newer guts and removable lenses. I personally detest EVFs, and I know I'm far from alone in the preference for a DSLR, particularly for fast-moving subjects with long lenses.


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## AlanF (Sep 19, 2019)

Squirl033 said:


> I don't have actual figures, so "millions" may be a bit of an exaggeration, but remember, the Mk II has been on the market for almost 5 years now, and it's one of Canon's most successful APS-c cameras. I wouldn't be at all surprised if global sales numbers have been well into 7 figures. And while mirrorless cameras are getting all the hype these days, they're really nothing more than the old digicams with newer guts and removable lenses. I personally detest EVFs, and I know I'm far from alone in the preference for a DSLR, particularly for fast-moving subjects with long lenses.


Yep, I am a fast-moving subject with a long lens.


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## Aussie shooter (Sep 19, 2019)

stevelee said:


> I’m reminded of watches I have had that were good down to 10 meters, but you shouldn’t wear them scuba diving. I wondered what you’d be doing 10 meters under water otherwise.


Free diving to 10 meters is fairly standard. Tbh 12-15 m is more the depth that most experienced free divers will get down to on a regular basis. The trick is making sure you have enough air to get back up


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## AlanF (Sep 19, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Snorkeling, it's only 33 ft!


And, I do snorkelling selfies.


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## scyrene (Sep 19, 2019)

Squirl033 said:


> it just doesn't make business sense for Canon to kill off what was *one of their best selling cameras* and try to pawn off an updated 80D as a replacement for a pro-grade camera like the 7D2.



Do we have sales figures to back that up?



Squirl033 said:


> I continue to hold out hope that Canon will release a true 7D Mk III next year; there is surely enough demand for it.



At the risk of sounding flippant, if they announce a replacement, there is enough demand. If they don't, there probably isn't (by whatever standards Canon sets for these things).


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## Sharlin (Sep 19, 2019)

Squirl033 said:


> it just doesn't make business sense for Canon to kill off what was one of their best selling cameras and try to pawn off an updated 80D as a replacement for a pro-grade camera like the 7D2.



Luckily Canon is not trying to do so. Nobody at Canon has so much as hinted that they consider the 90D as a 7D2 replacement. On the contrary. But that does not imply that a 7D3 is coming. In a shrinking market sometimes you just have to drop products.

The 7D2 is Canon's best-selling camera… right after _every other contemporaneous Canon body_ except probably the 5D3, 5D4, 1DX, and 1DX2. A helpful rule of thumb: if you call a camera "pro-grade" then it _definitely_ is not best-selling. (Do note that Canon doesn't classify the 7D2 as a professional body, a category that includes exactly the 5D and 1D series. My point stands, regardless.)


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## stevelee (Sep 19, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Snorkeling, it's only 33 ft!


I've not seen a snorkel that long, but they must exist, or you wouldn't have mentioned it. Still I don't see why the watch would care how you are breathing when you are that deep. But at least if you are drowning, you can keep track of the time.


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## stevelee (Sep 19, 2019)

Squirl033 said:


> I don't have actual figures, so "millions" may be a bit of an exaggeration, but remember, the Mk II has been on the market for almost 5 years now, and it's one of Canon's most successful APS-c cameras. I wouldn't be at all surprised if global sales numbers have been well into 7 figures. And while mirrorless cameras are getting all the hype these days, they're really nothing more than the old digicams with newer guts and removable lenses. I personally detest EVFs, and I know I'm far from alone in the preference for a DSLR, particularly for fast-moving subjects with long lenses.


I went to a Kelby seminar in Charlotte back before the 7D2 came out. During the first break I found that I was sitting among folks who had sons who were playing high school football. They all either had a 7D or were aspiring to own one soon. I was shooting a T3i at the time and hadn't paid any attention to the differences between higher models up until then. If you think of the number of high school football players in the US, you could easily conclude that it wouldn't take a huge subset of their parents to make that model popular.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 19, 2019)

stevelee said:


> I've not seen a snorkel that long, but they must exist, or you wouldn't have mentioned it. Still I don't see why the watch would care how you are breathing when you are that deep. But at least if you are drowning, you can keep track of the time.


No you couldn't breath through a snorkel if you were at 33ft and the snorkel was on the surface, the pressure differential would mean your lungs wouldn't have the sucking power. But when most people snorkel they duck down under the water and 33ft is a reasonable snorkel/reef depth that a large percentage of snorkelers would enjoy. 

I thought of mentioning free diving but 33 ft is too shallow for the vast majority of even casual free divers, I'm regularly with free divers who explore wrecks at 60-80ft.


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## Adelino (Sep 20, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> While the sensor may be better, it has fewer AF points and does not have a body that is robust enough to use as a hammer. My 7D2 has survived a lot of salt spray, -30C temperatures, and rain. That’s what the camera is for!
> 
> You can’t compare a 5 year old camera designed for one purpose to a new camera designed for another.


I am very surprised they went with the lower number of AF points. Does the 45 from the 80D work better than the 65 from the 7Dii? Or is the 45 on the 90D all new?


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## Sharlin (Sep 20, 2019)

Adelino said:


> I am very surprised they went with the lower number of AF points. Does the 45 from the 80D work better than the 65 from the 7Dii? Or is the 45 on the 90D all new?



The 45-pt sensor is fine as it is (though note that like the 6D2, the 90D has gained a Spot AF mode). The AF performance of the 80D is bounded by available processing power and possibly algorithmic sophistication. The 90D has plenty of processing power and, based on all accounts, clearly improved AI Servo subject acquisition and tracking. The main advantage of the 7D2’s 65-pt sensor is greater AF point coverage.


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## AlanF (Sep 20, 2019)

I have been testing the AI Servo with various small planes and pigeons in flight. Centre point is very fast acquisition. But, using all 45 points is good, picking up at the edges of the focussing frame accurately. Although 45 is less than 65, they are well spaced and cover a wide area. All in all, I am very happy with speed and accuracy of the 90D’s AF. I was never over the moon with the AF of my 7DII.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 26, 2019)

Adelino said:


> I am very surprised they went with the lower number of AF points. Does the 45 from the 80D work better than the 65 from the 7Dii? Or is the 45 on the 90D all new?



Question #1: No (based on personal experience).

Question #2: No (based on Canon's description of the 90D AF system).


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## AlanF (Sep 26, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Question #1: No (based on personal experience).
> 
> Question #2: No (based on Canon's description of the 90D AF system).


As Sharlin points out above, you have to consider that the actual AF depends on not just the number of points but also the data processing behind it in the camera. The 90D can do face detection and also has a new 220,000px RGB sensor that is used to enhance AF, with a faster processor (as well as having spot focus)




__





EOS 90D Face Detect AF Viewfinder Shooting | Canon U.S.A., Inc.


EOS 90D face detect AF viewfinder shooting. Dive into the world of photography and explore Canon's collection of educational articles to inspire your creativity.




www.usa.canon.com




The AF in the 90D has been significantly improved over that in the 80D and my experience with the 90D is that it has more consistent AF than my old 7DII.


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## Michael Clark (Sep 27, 2019)

AlanF said:


> As Sharlin points out above, you have to consider that the actual AF depends on not just the number of points but also the data processing behind it in the camera. The 90D can do face detection and also has a new 220,000px RGB sensor that is used to enhance AF, with a faster processor (as well as having spot focus)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My answers said nothing about performance or processing in the 90D. The second question was about whether the 45 points in the 90D were the same or different than the 80D, not about whether the processing or overall performance was improved. They appear to use the same PDAF array. In time we'll be able to see if both use the same part number for the PDAF array.


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## AlanF (Sep 27, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> My answers said nothing about performance or processing in the 90D. The second question was about whether the 45 points in the 90D were the same or different than the 80D, not about whether the processing or overall performance was improved. They appear to use the same PDAF array. In time we'll be able to see if both use the same part number for the PDAF array.


My comments were not intended to contradict yours but were providing additional information, which might be of use to readers who were wondering whether the 90D has the same AF as the 80D.


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## Ah-Keong (Oct 2, 2019)

Other than IQ at low ISO settings, say below ISO 1000.
Don't think 90D is superior to the 7Dii.


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## AlanF (Oct 2, 2019)

Ah-Keong said:


> Other than IQ at low ISO settings, say below ISO 1000.
> Don't think 90D is superior to the 7Dii.


Don't you think having a 32Mpx sensor rather than 20Mpx is an advantage? That gives 26% more reach and 60% more pixels on target, which is something most wild-life and bird photographers want.


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## Ah-Keong (Oct 2, 2019)

AlanF said:


> Don't you think having a 32Mpx sensor rather than 20Mpx is an advantage? That gives 26% more reach and 60% more pixels on target, which is something most wild-life and bird photographers want.



I agree to a certain extent but with the pixel density that comes along with the 32Mpx, I believe the IQ for the low light/ high ISO for the 20Mpx would be slightly higher unless the 90D 32-Mpx sensor is developed with some kind of new tech (super-BSI CMOS, etc) sensor ? 

I was hoping that the 90D would come with the latest patented Quad-Pixel CMOS AF sensor instead of the Dual-Pixel CMOS AF....
Maybe the " 1DXiii " then....


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## Kit. (Oct 2, 2019)

Ah-Keong said:


> I agree to a certain extent but with the pixel density that comes along with the 32Mpx, I believe the IQ for the low light/ high ISO for the 20Mpx would be slightly higher unless the 90D 32-Mpx sensor is developed with some kind of new tech (super-BSI CMOS, etc) sensor ?


For the same display size, the low-light IQ of a 20Mpx sensor should be slightly lower, because its shot noise occupies a slightly narrower spatial frequency band.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 2, 2019)

Kit. said:


> For the same display size, the low-light IQ of a 20Mpx sensor should be slightly lower, because its shot noise occupies a slightly narrower spatial frequency band.



Not when you crop the 32 MP sensor to 20 MP, making the imaging area smaller than the APS-C area of the 20MP sensor.


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## Kit. (Oct 2, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> Not when you crop the 32 MP sensor to 20 MP, making the imaging area smaller than the APS-C area of the 20MP sensor.


That assumes that you need to crop an image from a higher-resolution APS-C sensor, but for some magical reason wouldn't need to crop an image of the same scene from a lower-resolution APS-C sensor. Not a practical scenario.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 2, 2019)

Kit. said:


> That assumes that you need to crop an image from a higher-resolution APS-C sensor, but for some magical reason wouldn't need to crop an image of the same scene from a lower-resolution APS-C sensor. Not a practical scenario.



That's exactly what AlanF's comment was talking about. The higher resolution APS-C gives the user the option to crop more and get the same final resolution. Ah-Keong responded to AlanF's comment. You then responded to Ah-keong's response to AlanF's comment. So yes, that assumption is a valid one in the context of this conversation.


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## Kit. (Oct 2, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> That's exactly what AlanF's comment was talking about. The higher resolution APS-C gives the user the option to crop more and get the same final resolution.


...but for a different image, with more of the subject and less of the background in frame.

If you want to compare it to _the same_ image of the lower-resolution sensor, you need to crop equally and then upsample/downsample both crops to the same final bitmap size.


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## astoria59 (Oct 2, 2019)

While all of the technical speak of pixel size, sensor resolution etc. is helpful, for me? If the camera can't lock focus reliably in ovf, its a no-go. I've read a lot of talk on how wonderful the af is in the 90D with live view, I dont shoot in live view, never have and never will. For me it is not practical or possible. When I mount a 100-400 lens to the the front of a camera and am following BIF or other bird movement? Live view is not remotely possible. Im an 'old dog' and dont like new tricks that make the enjoyment of shooting BIF change into a physical endurance task....The 7Dii is still the camera for me at the end of the day. Maybe in the future they'll offer a 7Diii....


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## AlanF (Oct 6, 2019)

astoria59 said:


> While all of the technical speak of pixel size, sensor resolution etc. is helpful, for me? If the camera can't lock focus reliably in ovf, its a no-go. I've read a lot of talk on how wonderful the af is in the 90D with live view, I dont shoot in live view, never have and never will. For me it is not practical or possible. When I mount a 100-400 lens to the the front of a camera and am following BIF or other bird movement? Live view is not remotely possible. Im an 'old dog' and dont like new tricks that make the enjoyment of shooting BIF change into a physical endurance task....The 7Dii is still the camera for me at the end of the day. Maybe in the future they'll offer a 7Diii....


The AF via the OVF of the 90D is good. I have posted examples of BIF using the 100-400mm II on the 90D in the thread https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?threads/eos-90d-hands-on-review.37589/ and in the Birds in Flight thread. I used to use the7DII and found it excellent for BIF, it's difficult for me to recall precisely the performance of the 7DII relative to the 90D, but I am happy with the 90D.
Using mirrorless AF is often different from from the way we use AF for bird photography. Mirrorless can be much better at sticking to a large moving subject once it has locked on. But, for bird photography we need the AF to lock on fast and then we pan to keep the bird in the centre of the frame, and the OVF AF locks on faster than mirrorless. I don't think some of the so-called expert reviewers realise this.

By the way, there were lots of complaints posted in the early days about the AF on the 7DII being weak, but I was always very happy with it.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 7, 2019)

Kit. said:


> ...but for a different image, with more of the subject and less of the background in frame.
> 
> If you want to compare it to _the same_ image of the lower-resolution sensor, you need to crop equally and then upsample/downsample both crops to the same final bitmap size.



The entire point of more pixels occupying the same amount of sensor area for birders is to be able to get a different picture with the subject occupying more of the total frame in the final image. You're insisting on applying a standard that they don't want for that application. They want to be able to change the picture.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 7, 2019)

AlanF said:


> The AF via the OVF of the 90D is good. I have posted examples of BIF using the 100-400mm II on the 90D in the thread https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?threads/eos-90d-hands-on-review.37589/ and in the Birds in Flight thread. I used to use the7DII and found it excellent for BIF, it's difficult for me to recall precisely the performance of the 7DII relative to the 90D, but I am happy with the 90D.
> Using mirrorless AF is often different from from the way we use AF for bird photography. Mirrorless can be much better at sticking to a large moving subject once it has locked on. But, for bird photography we need the AF to lock on fast and then we pan to keep the bird in the centre of the frame, and the OVF AF locks on faster than mirrorless. I don't think some of the so-called expert reviewers realise this.
> 
> By the way, there were lots of complaints posted in the early days about the AF on the 7DII being weak, but I was always very happy with it.



I think most of the complaints about the AF system in the 7D Mark II were due to users who didn't bother taking the time to learn how to tell it what you want it to do. It's a sophisticated tool, but it is also a tool that gives the user control without much in the way of preventing the user from messing up. It's kind of like a sports car with very stiff suspension and a non-synchronized manual transmission. In the right hands it can turn the fastest laps, but in the wrong hands it won't make it through the first curve.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 7, 2019)

astoria59 said:


> While all of the technical speak of pixel size, sensor resolution etc. is helpful, for me? If the camera can't lock focus reliably in ovf, its a no-go. I've read a lot of talk on how wonderful the af is in the 90D with live view, I dont shoot in live view, never have and never will. For me it is not practical or possible. When I mount a 100-400 lens to the the front of a camera and am following BIF or other bird movement? Live view is not remotely possible. Im an 'old dog' and dont like new tricks that make the enjoyment of shooting BIF change into a physical endurance task....The 7Dii is still the camera for me at the end of the day. Maybe in the future they'll offer a 7Diii....



The review at DP Review is a joke with regard to the 90D's OVF AF system. Most of it was written based on using the EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM that is optimized more for video shooting than stills. From all reports I've seen by people who actually know their way around a Canon AF system, the 90D is a small improvement over the 80D using OVF AF. The big difference is that the 90D's LV AF is even better than OVF AF, which was definitely not the case with the 80D, 7D Mark II, and other upper tier Canon DSLRs.


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## Kit. (Oct 7, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The entire point of more pixels occupying the same amount of sensor area for birders is to be able to get a different picture with the subject occupying more of the total frame in the final image.


No. It's to get a "picture with the subject occupying more of the total frame in the final image" with an acceptable image quality. You can get the same picture from a lower resolution sensor, but its image quality will be lower (in this case, worse than acceptable).


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## AlanF (Oct 7, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The review at DP Review is a joke with regard to the 90D's OVF AF system. Most of it was written based on using the EF 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM that is optimized more for video shooting than stills. From all reports I've seen by people who actually know their way around a Canon AF system, the 90D is a small improvement over the 80D using OVF AF. The big difference is that the 90D's LV AF is even better than OVF AF, which was definitely not the case with the 80D, 7D Mark II, and other upper tier Canon DSLRs.


I have been roped into taking some portraits and have been testing the 90D with a 50/1.8 STM. The eye AF works a treat in LV. The 90D seems so have some of the best of both worlds, combining excellent mirrorless AF with rather good PD via OVF. The 90D does have some very nice features that have been developed since its tougher older brother was born.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 9, 2019)

Kit. said:


> No. It's to get a "picture with the subject occupying more of the total frame in the final image" with an acceptable image quality. You can get the same picture from a lower resolution sensor, but its image quality will be lower (in this case, worse than acceptable).



Which pretty much what you have previously been disagreeing with every time i said it. Gld to see you finally see it my way.


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