# Canon to add to their Cinema EOS lineup with three new monster cameras [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 27, 2021)

> I have been told about three new Canon Cinema EOS cameras coming in the near future. With NAB 2021 being held in October, I would expect Cinema EOS announcements ahead of that show.
> It looks like Canon is going to release three new Cinema cameras, which would likely be additions to the current lineup. Canon has said in the past that they won’t get caught behind in the 8K space like they were when 4K launched.
> It looks like Canon has two 8K Cinema EOS cameras planned as well as a dynamic range monster in a new version of the EOS C700.
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


----------



## RayValdez360 (Apr 27, 2021)

Can we get a compact cinema like the fx3 please. I am still waiting for that Canon.


----------



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 27, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Can we get a compact cinema like the fx3 please. I am still waiting for that Canon.


The R5c is coming.


----------



## Daan Stam (Apr 27, 2021)

These specs really look incredible


----------



## padam (Apr 27, 2021)

Well they've dealt with rolling shutter and dynamic range as well as slow motion, so there is really not a lot to criticize anymore - beyond the 10000$ price point


----------



## Joules (Apr 27, 2021)

padam said:


> Well they've dealt with rolling shutter and dynamic range as well as slow motion, so there is really not a lot to criticize anymore - beyond the 10000$ price point


I haven't seen global shutter mentioned in the OP. If anything, the quoted read out speeds might indicate the opposite. If I'm missing some info that implies global shutter (or you simply consider such low read out speeds as having dealt with rolling shutter) I would appreciate a hint.


----------



## padam (Apr 27, 2021)

Joules said:


> I haven't seen global shutter mentioned in the OP. If anything, the quoted read out speeds might indicate the opposite. If I'm missing some info that implies global shutter (or you simply consider such low read out speeds as having dealt with rolling shutter) I would appreciate a hint.


After a certain point it doesn't really matter that much, 10ms for an 8K sensor is class leading and more than low enough for practical purposes.
The do offer global shutter in the current C700 for those who really need it, but it is a compromise in other aspects.


----------



## Joules (Apr 27, 2021)

padam said:


> After a certain point it doesn't really matter that much, 10ms for an 8K sensor is class leading and more than low enough for practical purposes.


Okay, so I didn't miss anything regarding global shutter. Thanks.


----------



## NoNaCannon (Apr 27, 2021)

What happened to the C200 Mkii? I had thought they were going to announce it in April, but April is almost over and there hasn't been any mention of it since January.


----------



## chess227 (Apr 27, 2021)

I've been waiting to see some cinema news on Canon's front. After being with Canon since 2011, I ended up switching to Sony for the FX6. Like somebody above said, I wish they would release a cinema camera in a more compact form like the FX6 or the Komodo so that it can be flown on smaller rigs. I don't need something as small as the FX3 since there are plenty of DSLR cameras around to fit that need. I got tired of using the regular Ronin for my C200 and wanted something smaller for smaller gimbals. I absolutely hated the form factor of the C70 after using it and wish they would stop releasing cinema cameras in a DSLR type body. We need those specs in a smaller form like the Komodo or FX6. There's so much I loved about Canon that if they'd get that right, I would come back, because they definitely have much better lens options.


----------



## rontele7 (Apr 27, 2021)

Is this why they haven’t released *any* firmware updates for the C500ii/C300iii?

Sony has been bending over backwards to roll out FX9 firmware improvements.

If Canon ditches C500/C300 owners barely 18 months after release, then nobody is going to buy into another new system from them.

You have to support cameras and customers. That’s part of the deal.


----------



## padam (Apr 27, 2021)

It is a different scenario, with the FX9 it was promised that they will add missing features via firmware much later on.
With Canon no such things were promised, all is limited by the hardware itself.


----------



## BroderLund (Apr 27, 2021)

Will this DGO tech be possible to transfer to still cameras?


----------



## felipeolveram (Apr 27, 2021)

Price and lens mount predictions?


----------



## landon (Apr 27, 2021)

Which mount? RF or EF. Out of my budget. 
Waiting for R5c/C60 and C90, hopefully FF.


----------



## Chris.Chapterten (Apr 27, 2021)

landon said:


> Which mount? RF or EF. Out of my budget.
> Waiting for R5c/C60 and C90, hopefully FF.


Also curious about this. It would be odd to release new cinema cameras with EF mount if EF lenses are being discontinued?


----------



## RunAndGun (Apr 27, 2021)

padam said:


> Well they've dealt with rolling shutter and dynamic range as well as slow motion, so there is really not a lot to criticize anymore - beyond the 10000$ price point



In my book, rolling shutter hasn’t been dealt with, unless the camera has a global shutter. Even in cameras with really fast read times on rolling shutter sensors, flash banding still happens.


----------



## RunAndGun (Apr 27, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Also curious about this. It would be odd to release new cinema cameras with EF mount if EF lenses are being discontinued?





landon said:


> Which mount? RF or EF. Out of my budget.
> Waiting for R5c/C60 and C90, hopefully FF


Hopefully they go RF, because it gives you the best of both worlds and actually makes it easy to use pretty much any lens except an E mount.


----------



## frjmacias (Apr 27, 2021)

These cameras sound impressive. They will probably be out of my price range as I am not the working professional who these are targeted for, but I can start saving my pennies to eventually buy one to get into the world of cinema.


----------



## VivaLasVegas (Apr 27, 2021)

BroderLund said:


> Will this DGO tech be possible to transfer to still cameras?


I can’t see any reason why it can’t(stills) go the other way, video is just a compilation of stills. DGO tech should be a piece of cake in stills, IMO. Can you imagine a FF/DX body with DGO tech in it, Canon will probably have 3 modes of dynamic range selection; DR, +DR, wDR(wide). If this BSI stacked is any indication, Canon is not messing around.


----------



## Tremotino (Apr 27, 2021)

BroderLund said:


> Will this DGO tech be possible to transfer to still cameras?


Yes, I'm also wondering... Maybe a BSI stacked dual gain sensor would be a reason to update my canon 5D.


----------



## dirtyvu (Apr 27, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Can we get a compact cinema like the fx3 please. I am still waiting for that Canon.


The fx3 is not a cinema camera. No nd filters, no shutter angle, no time code, no dci 4k, no true 24 fps, awful screen, etc. You can't just put in extra holes and call it a cinema camera.


----------



## cayenne (Apr 27, 2021)

VivaLasVegas said:


> I can’t see any reason why it can’t(stills) go the other way, video is just a compilation of stills. DGO tech should be a piece of cake in stills, IMO. Can you imagine a FF/DX body with DGO tech in it, Canon will probably have 3 modes of dynamic range selection; DR, +DR, wDR(wide). If this BSI stacked is any indication, Canon is not messing around.



Please forgive what I"m afraid is a stupid question, but....what does DGO stand for and what does it do?

Thanks in advance,

cayenne


----------



## padam (Apr 27, 2021)

cayenne said:


> Please forgive what I"m afraid is a stupid question, but....what does DGO stand for and what does it do?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> cayenne











Canon's Dual Gain Output Image Sensor Explained


Canon releases a White Paper on its Dual Gain Output technology found on the C70 and other cinema cameras.




nofilmschool.com





It is most effective at base ISO, afterward the effect is reduced, so not really suited to stills cameras.


----------



## BroderLund (Apr 27, 2021)

cayenne said:


> Please forgive what I"m afraid is a stupid question, but....what does DGO stand for and what does it do?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> cayenne


DGO = Dual Gain Output. Essentially capturing the pixel with two ISO settings at the same time. One for the bright and one for the dark. This is then combined to one high dynamic range picture. Not the same as Dual Native ISO. Dual native ISO has two base ISO settings, high and low. But can only be one at the time. DGO are both at the same time.


----------



## jvillain (Apr 27, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Can we get a compact cinema like the fx3 please. I am still waiting for that Canon.


It's called the C-70.


----------



## jvillain (Apr 27, 2021)

The C-700DR with 4K 240 and 20+ stops of DR sounds like a a true beast. But I find it odd none of these cameras mention IAF or IBIS. 

Should we assume that NAB will be virtual again this year?


----------



## VivaLasVegas (Apr 27, 2021)

cayenne said:


> Please forgive what I"m afraid is a stupid question, but....what does DGO stand for and what does it do?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> cayenne


Dual Gain Output topic is around 4:26 - 6:16. Independent photo site takes highlights and shadows, then combines them into one, there by extending its dr on the sensor level.


----------



## esspy2 (Apr 27, 2021)

that's so great. wonder if they'll ever put a full frame sensor into a smaller body cinema line camera


----------



## Tremotino (Apr 27, 2021)

padam said:


> Canon's Dual Gain Output Image Sensor Explained
> 
> 
> Canon releases a White Paper on its Dual Gain Output technology found on the C70 and other cinema cameras.
> ...


That's not true, as we all know dynamic range is only at base ISO as claimed, but we still use a modern camera at higher ISO for stills so your point makes no sense.


----------



## Steve BXL (Apr 27, 2021)

jvillain said:


> The C-700DR with 4K 240 and 20+ stops of DR sounds like a a true beast. But I find it odd none of these cameras mention IAF or IBIS.
> 
> Should we assume that NAB will be virtual again this year?


Of course NAB will be virtual, you've not enough vaccinated people around the world to have a safe industry indoor event as of now.
Maybe next year. If the industry have an interest holding big expensive events now they've learned to successfully launch products online for cheap.


----------



## sdz (Apr 27, 2021)

padam said:


> Well they've dealt with rolling shutter and dynamic range as well as slow motion, so there is really not a lot to criticize anymore - beyond the 10000$ price point


Canon is *******.....


----------



## sdz (Apr 27, 2021)

sdz said:


> Canon is *******.....


Heh, d**med was censored!


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Apr 27, 2021)

4K/240p with 20 stops of DR will be awesome for wildlife documentaries!


----------



## frjmacias (Apr 27, 2021)

jvillain said:


> But I find it odd none of these cameras mention IAF or IBIS.


For a majority of working professionals(not all), these cinema cameras are usually on shoulder rigs, tripods, and large cranes and they pull their own focus, so I would assume that's the reason for the omission. But who knows? Canon could include it in future cinema cameras and it could be a welcome addition.


----------



## LJT (Apr 27, 2021)

These are great flagships and like many other industries, you need them so the tech filters down into other cameras however, I just can’t understand why Canon is ignoring the c100 level of users (potentially the rumoured c50)?!
For users who want a dedicated video option sub 5000 AUD; more like 4000 AUD would be great. The c70 at 8000+ AUD is just not justifiable for many of us.


----------



## dak3 (Apr 27, 2021)

I am very disappointed with Canon. I was expecting 30+ stops of dynamic range, 20 ND filter settings, global shutter, and hexapixel autofocus (HPAF) in the size of a C70 body for $5,999. If you can't deliver 2030 specs in 2021, then I'm moving back over to a George Lawrence 8'x4.5' gigantic format camera that mounts on a gallows platform. At least with a Lawrence camera, I can get spectacular framing!


----------



## LJT (Apr 27, 2021)

dak3 said:


> I am very disappointed with Canon. I was expecting 30+ stops of dynamic range, 20 ND filter settings, global shutter, and hexapixel autofocus (HPAF) in the size of a C70 body for $5,999. If you can't deliver 2030 specs in 2021, then I'm moving back over to a George Lawrence 8'x4.5' gigantic format camera that mounts on a gallows platform. At least with a Lawrence camera, I can get spectacular framing!
> View attachment 197271
> View attachment 197272


I know this is in jest however, you can’t deny that the c100 mkii at 4500 AUD has been replaced? Sure it’s a great camera and I’ve loved using it but would you say the specs are future proof? Would you also say the C70 is its replacement when it is 4000 more here in AU.


----------



## dak3 (Apr 27, 2021)

Superior AF tracking, without limiting AF to only a few EF-S lenses, plus true 4K resolution (not oversampled 1080p) and a high bit rate of data recording, plus a high dynamic range would make the C70 superior over the C100 Mark I or II. I am not crazy about investing in a C70 due to its flimsy articulating screen though. I see a lot of RMA warranty repairs for that LCD screen hinge being ripped off. The C100 Mark I screen was better in many regards for durability; though if Canon had implemented a Blackmagic 6k pro LCD screen design, with the option of flipping the screen completely up (as with the Tilta modification kit), then that would have been optimal!
Tilta LCD Modification Kit


----------



## Jonathan Thill (Apr 27, 2021)

Can get some nice insights to what the R3 is going to be based on these Stacked sensors.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Can we get a compact cinema like the fx3 please. I am still waiting for that Canon.


FX3 is a cinema camera in name only.
I would like to see Canon make a pocket 4K SPS-C cinema camera but they have never made anything close to that.
I have no question they can make a pocket-sized C100 sans ND filters.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

VivaLasVegas said:


> I can’t see any reason why it can’t(stills) go the other way, video is just a compilation of stills. DGO tech should be a piece of cake in stills, IMO. Can you imagine a FF/DX body with DGO tech in it, Canon will probably have 3 modes of dynamic range selection; DR, +DR, wDR(wide). If this BSI stacked is any indication, Canon is not messing around.


There is not really much of a point.
Canon cameras already do exposure bracketing which can be combined in post for outrageous dynamic range.


----------



## H. Jones (Apr 28, 2021)

Ramage said:


> Can get some nice insights to what the R3 is going to be based on these Stacked sensors.


100% agree, if Canon has a full frame 8K BSI sensor for the C500, I almost guarantee the R3's sensor is in that ballpark.


----------



## Tremotino (Apr 28, 2021)

H. Jones said:


> 100% agree, if Canon has a full frame 8K BSI sensor for the C500, I almost guarantee the R3's sensor is in that ballpark.


+1 yeah, canon has the technology for such a sensor in a stills camera. But are the costumer willing to pay for that technology? I would be surprised if Canon is able to bring down the costs of a C500 fullframe 8K sensor to a 1dx style R3 camera. The C500 will cost 5 times?, 10 times? more than a 1dx style R3 camera.


----------



## jam05 (Apr 28, 2021)

chess227 said:


> I've been waiting to see some cinema news on Canon's front. After being with Canon since 2011, I ended up switching to Sony for the FX6. Like somebody above said, I wish they would release a cinema camera in a more compact form like the FX6 or the Komodo so that it can be flown on smaller rigs. I don't need something as small as the FX3 since there are plenty of DSLR cameras around to fit that need. I got tired of using the regular Ronin for my C200 and wanted something smaller for smaller gimbals. I absolutely hated the form factor of the C70 after using it and wish they would stop releasing cinema cameras in a DSLR type body. We need those specs in a smaller form like the Komodo or FX6. There's so much I loved about Canon that if they'd get that right, I would come back, because they definitely have much better lens options.


Those tired compacts with the horrendous antique LCD displays and begging for active cooling. Not much more hardware can be put in them. The boxy Komodo is only a base shell and so is the base price. After building out the Komodo with everything equivalent of the C70 it isn't small at all.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

jam05 said:


> You're on an island. Many are tired of the compacts. Take a hint from the most used Cine cameras for the award winners, Arri mini and Arri Alexa. Sony is basically near the bottom of the list not even in the top 20


I have a lot of criticisms of the Sony cinema line but Venice is a masterpiece.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Apr 28, 2021)

8K 60p, that new stacked sensor tech looks very good, even the A1 can't offer that. I'd hate to see the file sizes with Canon's wasteful codecs. 100TB drives aren't due for another 5 years at least.


----------



## pape2 (Apr 28, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> 8K 60p, that new stacked sensor tech looks very good, even the A1 can't offer that. I'd hate to see the file sizes with Canon's wasteful codecs. 100TB drives aren't due for another 5 years at least.


This camera got fans


----------



## pape2 (Apr 28, 2021)

I wonder how fast best video storage systems write. There is systems what can write faster what these cameras produce?
And another thing ,if global shutter is real thing .Its DR weakness is from overheating ?
Maybe it cant do faster speeds on real life what rolling shutter becouse overheat problems ?
If it uses lot more battery ,it means lot more overheat too.
Only real differences on rolling shutter and global shutter would be then no artifacts on another ,and global shutter can make lot shorter pauses between exposures.
They may just cap DR to 12 so they can get more frame rate out. Would look stupid if long fussed global shutter makes less frames what rolling shutter.


----------



## padam (Apr 28, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> 8K 60p, that new stacked sensor tech looks very good, even the A1 can't offer that. I'd hate to see the file sizes with Canon's wasteful codecs. 100TB drives aren't due for another 5 years at least.


With the new Digic DV 8 processor, there will be plenty of 4K and 8K recording options, I would expect the same XF-AVC Long GOP and H.265 codecs from the C70.


----------



## Stanly (Apr 28, 2021)

C500S looks promising! If there's the RF mount option of course.​


----------



## padam (Apr 28, 2021)

Stanly said:


> C500S looks promising! If there's the RF mount option of course.​


These will have the RF-mount options as they are slowly stopping production of some EF lenses.

However, I would expect a big price jump (and the existing options to keep on going for a fair few years, maybe substantial price drops coming?), as in the past generation the C500 Mark II was missing 4k120p and the DGO tech in comparison to the C300 Mark III.
Now it has every feature from the lesser model with even better dynamic range.
If the price difference remains "only" 5000$ between the two models, then the FF model may be a "bargain", but I highly doubt that.


----------



## Joules (Apr 28, 2021)

pape2 said:


> I wonder how fast best video storage systems write. There is systems what can write faster what these cameras produce?
> And another thing ,if global shutter is real thing .Its DR weakness is from overheating ?
> Maybe it cant do faster speeds on real life what rolling shutter becouse overheat problems ?
> If it uses lot more battery ,it means lot more overheat too.
> ...


What happened to you original account, did you get banned?

Anyway, I would not worry about Canon's global shutter. For one, these cameras here don't seem to have one so it is off topic. And since Canon now has the ability to make stacked BSI sensors, they should have more than enough flexibility to pull off a global shutter that does neither compromises on speed nor DR.

The concerns with heat we are seeing in some current cameras don't come from the sensor, but the processing and storage systems instead. Those can be addressed with smaller manufacturing processes and better thermal solutions like bigger surfaces, or failing that, active cooling. For the type of camera discussed in this thread, both of those sound just fine to me.


----------



## pape2 (Apr 28, 2021)

Joules said:


> What happened to you original account, did you get banned?


Nope just lost password and email. i guess i might get banned too,i understand things too wrong too often


----------



## Joules (Apr 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> There is not really much of a point.
> Canon cameras already do exposure bracketing which can be combined in post for outrageous dynamic range.


Exposure bracketing is only feasible for completely static scenes. You don't need to use it, but I'll gladly take multiple stops extra DR for all shots. Seems useful for all kinds of scenarios for me.


----------



## Joules (Apr 28, 2021)

pape2 said:


> Nope just lost password and email. i guess i might get banned too,i understand things too wrong too often


Ah, the classic. Well, at least your username is fairly close to the last one  

I would hope language issues are not enough reason to get banned though. I'm not banned yet, and I dared to use the d-word sometimes. So you shouldn't worry too much I think.

Anyway, your question about what kind of storage solution can keep up with these kinds of data throughput is valid. 8k 60 p RAW is quite demanding, even with some lossless compression.


----------



## padam (Apr 28, 2021)

Joules said:


> Exposure bracketing is only feasible for completely static scenes. You don't need to use it, but I'll gladly take multiple stops extra DR for all shots. Seems useful for all kinds of scenarios for me.


The fundamental difference regarding the DGO technology is that with a stills camera you are not keeping a constant base ISO of 800.
Sometimes you need to go lower and sometimes higher.
And lowest native ISO if 100 with a mechanical shutter will perform better anyway compared to using the electronic shutter (without DGO), so the benefit regarding dynamic range is reduced.
So it is a lot more complicated on a stills camera, and there is less to gain: there is a fair amount of circuitry that they need to add just for that one scenario (it might add more noise at high ISOs) and it consumes a lot of extra power, too.

And of course all these 8K DGO sensor cameras will cost well over 10000$.

The C70 is the cheapest one with DGO, it is only 4K and S35mm size, so I doubt that it is that much better over the R5 in stills mode with mechanical shutter at ISO 100 (for video, even against RAW it has a clear advantage).

It it more likely that with the newest cameras with stacked sensors, there will be an HDR stills mode merging multiple images like on smartphones.


----------



## adrian_bacon (Apr 28, 2021)

VivaLasVegas said:


> I can’t see any reason why it can’t(stills) go the other way, video is just a compilation of stills. DGO tech should be a piece of cake in stills, IMO. Can you imagine a FF/DX body with DGO tech in it, Canon will probably have 3 modes of dynamic range selection; DR, +DR, wDR(wide). If this BSI stacked is any indication, Canon is not messing around.


Canon probably was doing it in stills land starting with the 80D. They just haven’t said anything because they were using it to get better noise. It was found out quite a long time ago with the 5DIV when saving the dual pixel raw files, the second set of senses was a whole stop different exposure from the other sensel under the micro lens, which meant that the camera was actually storing 15 stops of exposure information if you were smart about putting it back together, which I strongly suspect canon was doing in camera to get more base DR and noise performance.

in video camera land, it’s just more of the same, except now marketing, because in video camera land, their ADC is 12 bits and they’re probably gained by 2-3 stops between each sensel instead of one like in stills land. How else would they be getting 14+ stops of DR with 12 bits of ADC in video?


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

padam said:


> It it more likely that with the newest cameras with stacked sensors, there will be an HDR stills mode merging multiple images like on smartphones.


I would hope that RAW would include the data from all the images so they could be edited separately in post.
HDR does something similar in that it holds image info for multiple exposures but of course not in RAW format.


----------



## Joules (Apr 28, 2021)

padam said:


> The fundamental difference regarding the DGO technology is that with a stills camera you are not keeping a constant base ISO of 800.
> Sometimes you need to go lower and sometimes higher.
> And lowest native ISO if 100 with a mechanical shutter will perform better anyway compared to using the electronic shutter (without DGO), so the benefit regarding dynamic range is reduced.
> So it is a lot more complicated on a stills camera, and there is less to gain: there is a fair amount of circuitry that they need to add just for that one scenario (it might add more noise at high ISOs) and it consumes a lot of extra power, too.
> ...


What does ISO 800 have to do with the technology itself? The white paper linked earlier for example is written as if the highlight priority amplification is just the regular ISO you would use in a non-DGO scenario. So ISO 100 in the case of stills and a scene with challenging DR.

The noise (I guess shadows would be more fitting) prioritizing amplification is the higher ISO, so 1600 for example. Of course if Canon has pushed their amps to be so clean that they are virtually ISO invariant, there's nothing to be gained here.

I only have images of the 90D as comparison, which is much cleaner than the 80D for example, but still shows more noise in an image taken at ISO 100 and pushed 5 stops digitally than one taken at ISO 1600 right away.

Also, from the white paper linked earlier, DGO doesn't look like it adds that much complexity. If I understand the text correctly, they aren't duplicating the entire amplification circuitry, but rather processing the two signals coming from each pixel one at a time, sequentially and just switching the gain. It definitely adds complexity, no doubt about it. But thanks to DPAF there already is a lot of duplicate processing in there anyway. It will be interesting to see what new options their stacked sensor fabrication brings them and the consumer.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

Joules said:


> What does ISO 800 have to do with the technology itself?


I can only assume that ISO 800 was meant to serve as an example of the base ISO even though that would vary between cameras and profiles.
I guess it relates to C70 and C300 as concrete examples to get the highest range out of those 2 cameras.
DGO combines signal gain at low and high ISO.
Anything outside of that range can't use DGO and using an ISO between the range only shortens the range.
The highest dynamic range is typically the base ISO regardless of DGO.


----------



## DannyPwins (Apr 28, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The R5c is coming.


I could be wrong but I don’t think Canon is gonna do another C series hybrid camera like the 1DC.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

DannyPwins said:


> I could be wrong but I don’t think Canon is gonna do another C series hybrid camera like the 1DC.


R5c is just what we are calling it, but since the R5 has 8K and 4K DCI and true 24 FPS, an active-cooled version could justifiably be called a cinema camera unlike the FX3 which has none of those features


----------



## DannyPwins (Apr 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> R5c is just what we are calling it, but since the R5 has 8K and 4K DCI and true 24 FPS, an active-cooled version could justifiably be called a cinema camera unlike the FX3 which has none of those features


Gotcha. That said I really wanted to the 1Dc at the time, but the overheating issue was unacceptable. Would constantly overheat during 4K recording to the point where it stopped working. Sent out to Canon for repair and $1000 later it started overheating again about 1 month later.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

DannyPwins said:


> Gotcha. That said I really wanted to the 1Dc at the time, but the overheating issue was unacceptable. Would constantly overheat during 4K recording to the point where it stopped working. Sent out to Canon for repair and $1000 later it started overheating again about 1 month later.


Really?
I thought the entire point of 1Dc was that it would never overheat.
I figured it had a similar heat sink to the 1DX II which has pretty much the same capabilities but never overheats.


----------



## Finn (Apr 28, 2021)

Finally some real action from Canon. I went back and forth deciding if I should go Canon or Sony for full frame and I landed on Canon because I felt like they were doing more interesting things with their RF mount and with their RF lenses. Hope they keep this up.

Would love more wide f1.8 primes. Would love to see some innovative F4 L-series glass for landscapes: 14-35 f4 or a 24-200 f4 or 28-200 f4.

I'm actually excited to see R5 mk2 or R5C or whatever is coming in the R5 sized lineup in the next 3 years. R5 is my preferred size but I would pack a C70 sized camera if the video specs were like these.


----------



## john1970 (Apr 28, 2021)

Ramage said:


> Can get some nice insights to what the R3 is going to be based on these Stacked sensors.


I agree. Makes me think the R3 will also be a DGO BSI Stacked sensor with 8K resolution. I only expect 8K30, but the increased dynamic range has gotten my attention.


----------



## sanj (Apr 28, 2021)

DannyPwins said:


> Gotcha. That said I really wanted to the 1Dc at the time, but the overheating issue was unacceptable. Would constantly overheat during 4K recording to the point where it stopped working. Sent out to Canon for repair and $1000 later it started overheating again about 1 month later.


It never overheated for me


----------



## dak3 (Apr 28, 2021)

DannyPwins said:


> Gotcha. That said I really wanted to the 1Dc at the time, but the overheating issue was unacceptable. Would constantly overheat during 4K recording to the point where it stopped working. Sent out to Canon for repair and $1000 later it started overheating again about 1 month later.


I still own the 1Dc camera. It has never overheated when recording in 4K, and I still have it going strong on a rig with my Atomos Shinobi monitor and Tilta Nucleus hand grip focus with FF motor.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Apr 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> R5c is just what we are calling it, but since the R5 has 8K and 4K DCI and true 24 FPS, an active-cooled version could justifiably be called a cinema camera unlike the FX3 which has none of those features



The FX3 shouldn't even be called a cinema camera. A more apt description would be a fan cooled MILC. It shares little with the FX series including having the same OS/menu system as its A7/9/1 bodies instead of the cinema os (Custom/Cine EI) setup of its bigger siblings. It can output RAW in 4240 across, but Sony literally copied the firmware over and didn't even add a DCI option. I would say the C70 is way more cinema camera than the FX3 with LANC and Timecode terminals, etc. and having the same operation as the rest of the EOS C lineup.


----------



## MBMedia (Apr 28, 2021)

Steve BXL said:


> Of course NAB will be virtual, you've not enough vaccinated people around the world to have a safe industry indoor event as of now.
> Maybe next year. If the industry have an interest holding big expensive events now they've learned to successfully launch products online for cheap.


NAB is scheduled to be October 8-14 in Las Vegas this year. Already have my trip booked!


----------



## DannyPwins (Apr 28, 2021)

dak3 said:


> I still own the 1Dc camera. It has never overheated when recording in 4K, and I still have it going strong on a rig with my Atomos Shinobi monitor and Tilta Nucleus hand grip focus with FF motor.


I guess I just had a defective one.


----------



## DannyPwins (Apr 28, 2021)

sanj said:


> It never overheated for me


Was just speaking from my experience. I never had that problem with my Clog 5d4 or eos R.


----------



## DannyPwins (Apr 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Really?
> I thought the entire point of 1Dc was that it would never overheat.
> I figured it had a similar heat sink to the 1DX II which has pretty much the same capabilities but never overheats.


Yea...maybe I just had a defective camera. It did the job great until the overheating started.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Apr 28, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The R5c is coming.


so you are 100% sure about this. I have a c70 but it doesnt cut it as well in gimbal work and compactness.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Apr 28, 2021)

VivaLasVegas said:


> I can’t see any reason why it can’t(stills) go the other way, video is just a compilation of stills. DGO tech should be a piece of cake in stills, IMO. Can you imagine a FF/DX body with DGO tech in it, Canon will probably have 3 modes of dynamic range selection; DR, +DR, wDR(wide). If this BSI stacked is any indication, Canon is not messing around.


the dual pixel thing no one uses is kinda like dgo.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 28, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> the dual pixel thing no one uses is kinda like dgo.


Canon were always very specific in stating dual pixel and dual gain are very different technologies.


----------



## andrewtowecreative (Apr 28, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Can we get a compact cinema like the fx3 please. I am still waiting for that Canon.


C70


----------



## andrewtowecreative (Apr 28, 2021)

chess227 said:


> I've been waiting to see some cinema news on Canon's front. After being with Canon since 2011, I ended up switching to Sony for the FX6. Like somebody above said, I wish they would release a cinema camera in a more compact form like the FX6 or the Komodo so that it can be flown on smaller rigs. I don't need something as small as the FX3 since there are plenty of DSLR cameras around to fit that need. I got tired of using the regular Ronin for my C200 and wanted something smaller for smaller gimbals. I absolutely hated the form factor of the C70 after using it and wish they would stop releasing cinema cameras in a DSLR type body. We need those specs in a smaller form like the Komodo or FX6. There's so much I loved about Canon that if they'd get that right, I would come back, because they definitely have much better lens options.


EOS R5c?


----------



## andrewtowecreative (Apr 28, 2021)

cayenne said:


> Please forgive what I"m afraid is a stupid question, but....what does DGO stand for and what does it do?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> cayenne


Dual Gain Output, I have the C300 Mark iii, love it.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> so you are 100% sure about this. I have a c70 but it doesnt cut it as well in gimbal work and compactness.


We do not know how small R5c is supposed to be.
I think it would need to be smaller than R3 but not necessarily the C70.
The R5 + Ninja V+ sounds perfect for a gimbal provided it does not overheat.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

DannyPwins said:


> Yea...maybe I just had a defective camera. It did the job great until the overheating started.


Thanks for your experience.
It sounds like you have had better luck with other cameras.
If Canon were perfect then we would not have so many refurbished deals.


----------



## Darecinema (Apr 28, 2021)

Chris.Chapterten said:


> Also curious about this. It would be odd to release new cinema cameras with EF mount if EF lenses are being discontinued?


Yeah that’s my biggest question honestly. I’m enjoying the C70 and just shot a 45 minute film with it which was awesome with a few quirks. But really I’m just waiting for the next iterations of Cinema cameras with RF mount as that is clearly their future mount. If that 4k 20 stops DR beast is RF I will be buying that on Day 1 of pre orders.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

Darecinema said:


> Yeah that’s my biggest question honestly. I’m enjoying the C70 and just shot a 45 minute film with it which was awesome with a few quirks. But really I’m just waiting for the next iterations of Cinema cameras with RF mount as that is clearly their future mount


It will not clearly be their future if these new cameras do not come with RF mount.


----------



## jvillain (Apr 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> It will not clearly be their future if these new cameras do not come with RF mount.


Being able to easily adapt PL and EF to RF rather than having to break out the shims would seem to be a major feature for cameras in this class.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

jvillain said:


> Being able to easily adapt PL and EF to RF rather than having to break out the shims would seem to be a major feature for cameras in this class.


For professionals who only use PL lenses, it would just be an added hassle.


----------



## jvillain (Apr 28, 2021)

MBMedia said:


> NAB is scheduled to be October 8-14 in Las Vegas this year. Already have my trip booked!



That is great news. Thanks for responding.


----------



## padam (Apr 28, 2021)

I'm guessing this was recorded with a C300S prototype


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

padam said:


> I'm guessing this was recorded with a C300S prototype


That looked completely terrible on my computer screen.
I have to guess that was not an 8K feed and YouTube butchered it.


----------



## RayValdez360 (Apr 29, 2021)

andrewtowecreative said:


> C70


the shape is awkward and still a bit heavy.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Apr 29, 2021)

pape2 said:


> This camera got fans


What's the storage capacity of a fan?


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 29, 2021)

Mr Majestyk said:


> What's the storage capacity of a fan?


Depends on the capacitors


----------



## Flamingtree (Apr 29, 2021)

padam said:


> I'm guessing this was recorded with a C300S prototype


Not sure if it’s just my taste (and I am not a video guy anyway) but I thought some of the processing on that video was glorious and other bits were fairly average. What do people think?


----------



## Finn (Apr 29, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> the dual pixel thing no one uses is kinda like dgo.





privatebydesign said:


> Canon were always very specific in stating dual pixel and dual gain are very different technologies.



Thats because they are.

Dual Native ISO is toggling between two different gain circuits at certain dB (marketed in many Sony & Panasonic cameras). Think, 640 iso *OR* 4000 ISO.

Dual Gain Output is reading two different gain circuits at the same time and combining their output to a final image. Think, 640 ISO *AND* 4000 ISO.

Dual Pixel is a phase detection autofocus strategy.

I much prefer dual gain output as a technology.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 29, 2021)

Finn said:


> Dual Gain Output is reading two different gain circuits at the same time and combining their output to a final image. Think, 640 ISO *AND* 4000 ISO.


That technique is patented by ARRI.
Canon does it a little differently.








Canon's Dual Gain Output Sensor Explained - Newsshooter


Canon has been receiving a lot of emails and inquiries asking about how their Dual gain Output sensor actually works. So they made a short video to try




www.newsshooter.com


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 29, 2021)

Finn said:


> Thats because they are.
> 
> Dual Native ISO is toggling between two different gain circuits at certain dB (marketed in many Sony & Panasonic cameras). Think, 640 iso *OR* 4000 ISO.
> 
> ...


Dual pixel is not limited to auto focus, it can be used to increase dynamic range by one stop.


----------



## Finn (Apr 29, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> That technique is patented by ARRI.
> Canon does it a little differently.
> 
> 
> ...


 I read that article and both companies explanation of their technology is essentially the same. Hard to tell unless we read the patent papers.



privatebydesign said:


> Dual pixel is not limited to auto focus, it can be used to increase dynamic range by one stop.


Dual pixel RAW? That is super quirky and has perspective issues when blending.

Perhaps this is what Canon is doing for DGO but refined with tons of real-time processing.


----------



## pape2 (Apr 29, 2021)

So DGO doubles read time too if readed two times. Need to be good still sensor to do that and yet maintain competitive framerates
C700WDR prolly reads sensor 3 or 4 times ,you guys still sure this isnt global shutter one?


----------



## Tremotino (Apr 29, 2021)

pape2 said:


> So DGO doubles read time too if readed two times. Need to be good still sensor to do that and yet maintain competitive framerates
> C700WDR prolly reads sensor 3 or 4 times ,you guys still sure this isnt global shutter one?


No, it's reading the dual gains at the same time. Nothing to do with global shutter


----------



## Joules (Apr 29, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Canon were always very specific in stating dual pixel and dual gain are very different technologies.


I still find their marketing on this confusing. The DGO whitepaper at least clears a few things up. Mainly the term photosite, which they use for the entire unit of two photodiodes. The marketing had made that sound like the individual photodiodes to me. 

From the whitepaper I understand that each of the two photodiodes is read separately and they sequentially pass through the same amp, but set to different gains. It certainly is different to the DPAF in some sense, but not as much as some of the marketing would have you believe. After all, it relies on the two halfes pixels to work at all. 

And it doesn't seem to actually amplify each photodiode with two different gains like some of the articles comparing it to the Arri implementation suggests.


----------



## festr (Apr 29, 2021)

20+ Stops Dynamic Range in WDR Mode - wtf?


----------



## jam05 (Apr 29, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Can we get a compact cinema like the fx3 please. I am still waiting for that Canon.


You're two months late.









Confirmed, a Canon EOS R5c is going to be announced this year [CR3]


I reported last week that an EOS R cinema camera would be coming in the future. I have now confirmed this to be true, and we should expect an announcement in la



www.canonrumors.com


----------



## jam05 (Apr 29, 2021)

cayenne said:


> Please forgive what I"m afraid is a stupid question, but....what does DGO stand for and what does it do?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> cayenne





VivaLasVegas said:


> I can’t see any reason why it can’t(stills) go the other way, video is just a compilation of stills. DGO tech should be a piece of cake in stills, IMO. Can you imagine a FF/DX body with DGO tech in it, Canon will probably have 3 modes of dynamic range selection; DR, +DR, wDR(wide). If this BSI stacked is any indication, Canon is not messing around.


It's not necessary. And would increase the cost of a still camera. DGO isn't merely firmware. It's additional hardware and firmware thus the Cine line. Video in still cameras (hybrid) only increase the price of the still camera.


----------



## jam05 (Apr 29, 2021)

dirtyvu said:


> The fx3 is not a cinema camera. No nd filters, no shutter angle, no time code, no dci 4k, no true 24 fps, awful screen, etc. You can't just put in extra holes and call it a cinema camera.


You're two months late. 








Confirmed, a Canon EOS R5c is going to be announced this year [CR3]


I reported last week that an EOS R cinema camera would be coming in the future. I have now confirmed this to be true, and we should expect an announcement in la



www.canonrumors.com


----------



## jam05 (Apr 29, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I have a lot of criticisms of the Sony cinema line but Venice is a masterpiece.


And the Sony Venice complete with everything required is not small. And nor is the price. Same goes for the base RED Komodo. Like purchasing an automobile body without wheels and seats inside.


----------



## jam05 (Apr 29, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Thanks for your experience.
> It sounds like you have had better luck with other cameras.
> If Canon were perfect then we would not have so many refurbished deals.


Nothing is perfect and no user or operator is perfect. Everyone doesn't maintain or treat their equipment equivalent. Even automobiles have a service department.


----------



## Kanon (Apr 29, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Can we get a compact cinema like the fx3 please. I am still waiting for that Canon.


Totally agree. It’s either too overkill or not enough.


----------



## pape2 (Apr 29, 2021)

Tremotino said:


> No, it's reading the dual gains at the same time. Nothing to do with global shutter


Yep readed newshooter explanation one more time  . So more wires on sensor ,crazy how these things getting complex.


----------



## NeatnTidy (Apr 29, 2021)

RayValdez360 said:


> Can we get a compact cinema like the fx3 please. I am still waiting for that Canon.


You mean the c70...?


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 29, 2021)

NeatnTidy said:


> You mean the c70...?


C70 is like a 5D ate an FX3


----------



## transpo1 (Apr 30, 2021)

If true, these cameras sound amazing and just what Canon needs to stay ahead of the competition. I’m using a RED at the moment so don’t exactly need these right now but the specs are making me extremely jealous. All that with the ergonomics and color science of a Canon body is very tempting.

Glad they are not repeating their 4K market errors this time around. Competition from Sony, ARRI, RED, and others in the video space seems to have lit a fire under them and that’s good for all consumers/prosumers/pros alike. 

Looking forward to a bright future with cameras such as the C70, R5C (if I’m lucky, fingers crossed), and eventually, perhaps, one of these.


----------



## padam (Apr 30, 2021)

I guess the question now: is it possible to upgrade the C300 Mark III and C500 Mark II to the RF-mount (especially useful for the former with the EF-EOS R 0.71x Mount Adapter) or they weren't made to be compatible in the first place, and they are going with either of these new models to push customers towards 8K.

And of course they will also offer the smaller C50, C70 and C90 with the older sensors for those who don't need 8K or don't want to spend more. 6 cinema cameras with the RF-mount (plus the R5 C) are probably more than enough.


----------



## dak3 (Apr 30, 2021)

padam said:


> I guess the question now: is it possible to upgrade the C300 Mark III and C500 Mark II to the RF-mount (especially useful for the former with the EF-EOS R 0.71x Mount Adapter) or they weren't made to be compatible in the first place, and they are going with either of these new models to push customers towards 8K.
> 
> And of course they will also offer the smaller C50, C70 and C90 with the older sensors for those who don't need 8K or don't want to spend more. 6 cinema cameras with the RF-mount (plus the R5 C) are probably more than enough.


Unless Canon releases the C400 and C600, then there will never be enough cine-cameras available!


----------



## Alam (Apr 30, 2021)

VivaLasVegas said:


> I can’t see any reason why it can’t(stills) go the other way, video is just a compilation of stills. DGO tech should be a piece of cake in stills, IMO. Can you imagine a FF/DX body with DGO tech in it, Canon will probably have 3 modes of dynamic range selection; DR, +DR, wDR(wide). If this BSI stacked is any indication, Canon is not messing around.


The frame rate should be really fast first for imo, as far as my understanding DGO read the sensor twice so probably affordable global shutter still need to be achieved first


----------



## Joules (Apr 30, 2021)

Alam said:


> The frame rate should be really fast first for imo, as far as my understanding DGO read the sensor twice so probably affordable global shutter still need to be achieved first


DGO doesn't read the sensor any more often than DPAF. It reads two diodes per pixel, but as each pixel has half the size and can therefore hold less charge, it also takes less time to read.

Canon processes the two gains sequentially, so that does indeed take some time. But even the non stacked Canon C300 III with DGO already has great read speeds. Global shutter is not a requirement.


----------



## pape2 (Apr 30, 2021)

Sorry about this obsession about 3rd camera being global shutter one. 
But it dosnt actually say C700WDR got dual gain output.
And i believe there was plans making global shutter what actually reads same photo two times to increase DR with penalty of halved speed.
DGO might be too difficult to put on globalshutter one.
Just doesnt go my sense canon giving free lunch like 4000$ C700 global sensor .
Twist would be sell same sensor again to same peoples with better DR camera 
And C700wdr is giving two different speed,high rate without expanded DR . DGO cant be turned off. So cant be using DGO tech.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 30, 2021)

pape2 said:


> Just doesnt go my sense canon giving free lunch like 4000$ C700 global sensor .


There is already a C700 GS.
Canon has several specialty C700 cameras as opposed to having one with every feature that they have.


----------



## Chig (May 1, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


What about the R5 C , that makes 4 cinema bodies


----------



## EOS 4 Life (May 1, 2021)

Chig said:


> What about the R5 C , that makes 4 cinema bodies


Was 1DC ever part of the cinema line?


----------



## privatebydesign (May 1, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Was 1DC ever part of the cinema line?


Yes absolutely it was.


----------



## RunAndGun (May 2, 2021)

padam said:


> *I guess the question now: is it possible to upgrade the C300 Mark III and C500 Mark II to the RF-mount* (especially useful for the former with the EF-EOS R 0.71x Mount Adapter) or they weren't made to be compatible in the first place, and they are going with either of these new models to push customers towards 8K.
> 
> And of course they will also offer the smaller C50, C70 and C90 with the older sensors for those who don't need 8K or don't want to spend more. 6 cinema cameras with the RF-mount (plus the R5 C) are probably more than enough.


Nope. RF is too shallow. Thats why they had to redesign the ND mechanism for the C70, to be able to fit it all in.


----------



## telemaque (May 7, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> That looked completely terrible on my computer screen.
> I have to guess that was not an 8K feed and YouTube butchered it.


Bottom Right of your screen you can choose the bitrate quality. By default it is lowest quality but you can change it. It started low quality on my computer too. But I change it to 4K quality and it looked awesome. ;-)


----------



## EOS 4 Life (May 8, 2021)

telemaque said:


> Bottom Right of your screen you can choose the bitrate quality. By default it is lowest quality but you can change it. It started low quality on my computer too. But I change it to 4K quality and it looked awesome. ;-)


Thanks.
That looks absolutely incredible and this is coming from an R5 owner.


----------

