# Long lens recommendation for surveillance.



## aaronh (Dec 17, 2012)

Hi, I've got a friend in law enforcement who is asking me for a recommendation for lens/camera combo for surveillance. I naturally thought to extend the question to you all!

What would you recommend as a set-up for surveillance? My friend won't be able to spend a ton of time learning the ins and outs of it and he's not interested in photography as an art. He will need to use it time to time at night and won't be using a flash (obviously).

Your thoughts?

P.S. Budget doesn't necessarily matter. Unless you are concerned about the fact that our taxes will be footing the bill...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Dec 17, 2012)

I'd get the new 600mm f/4 MK II and TC's along with a 1D X which will autofocus with a 2X TC attached which gives you 1200mm. I think its better than the 800mm and a 1.4x TC.
Don't forget that a combination lile this needs a pro level tripod and head, another $2,000 or so.

Of course, adapting the 600mm to a micro body with 1 inch sensor will give lots of magnification, but holding it stable might be a exercise in futility.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 17, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'd get the new 600mm f/4 MK II and TC's along with a 1D X which will autofocus with a 2X TC attached which gives you 1200mm.



I conducted surveillance on an 'Ipswich' savannah sparrow with just such a combo. 




EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II + EF 2x III Extender, 1/500 s, f/8, ISO 1600


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## crasher8 (Dec 17, 2012)

Isn't that what Jim Rockford kept in his trunk next to the small printing press?


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## candyman (Dec 17, 2012)

crasher8 said:


> Isn't that what Jim Rockford kept in his trunk next to the small printing press?



I know him. But does the younger generation?
Yeah, he was always prepared


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## Drizzt321 (Dec 17, 2012)

How far away does he need to do surveillance? As Neuro said, the 600 f/4 with 2X TC on the 1DX or 1Dm4 for the 1.3x FOV crop. Don't forget to get one of those lens wraps to hide the great BWL if that's a concern. If he's at closer distances. you can go for the other, shorter primes, or go for the 100-400 for more versatility between closer and further reach. Oh, and don't forget he should get a really good tripod or other support devices if he's going to be shooting at night with the BWL glass. Hmmm...the other thing might be a good laptop which he tethers to the camera to view the images on a larger screen.

Oh, and doesn't Canon have some kind of strong signing of an image that it comes from a person/camera? Maybe he should look into that, since it probably would help with chain of custody kind of thing for any evidence.


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## K-amps (Dec 17, 2012)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> I'd get the new 600mm f/4 MK II and TC's along with a 1D X which will autofocus with a 2X TC attached which gives you 1200mm. I think its better than the 800mm and a 1.4x TC.
> Don't forget that a combination lile this needs a pro level tripod and head, another $2,000 or so.
> 
> Of course, adapting the 600mm to a micro body with 1 inch sensor will give lots of magnification, but holding it stable might be a exercise in futility.



+1: I'd recommend dark skins to go over the large white Bazooka.


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## neuroanatomist (Dec 17, 2012)

candyman said:


> crasher8 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't that what Jim Rockford kept in his trunk next to the small printing press?
> ...


I Googled him, but the first hit was some Canadian Football League player. 

Besides, I always liked Barnaby Jones better.


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## emag (Dec 17, 2012)

Have your friend call these folks and discuss his needs:

http://www.supercircuits.com/


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## aaronh (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions! I had originally recommended looking into a 7D and the 100-400. I'll ask him about what kind of distance he is talking about here. From what I understand his job requires a lot of sitting in a parking lot... 

I too had to look up Jim Rockford 

Good call on the lens wraps as well.

What does this mean: "Oh, and doesn't Canon have some kind of strong signing of an image that it comes from a person/camera? Maybe he should look into that, since it probably would help with chain of custody kind of thing for any evidence." Strong signing?


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## Zlatko (Dec 17, 2012)

Drizzt321 said:


> How far away does he need to do surveillance?


This is the question. Because it determines the focal length of the lens. The ultimate low light telephoto is probably the 200 f/2 ($$$), but whether that is the appropriate focal length depends on the subject distance.

Pro-level tripods are big and easy to spot. Leaning the camera on something sturdy, perhaps with a bean bag, may be more practical. Or perhaps a monopod or a very short tripod/stand, like what some sports photographers use for their remote cameras. 

The essentials are going to be:
- high res, high ISO camera = Canon 5D3, 1DX, 6D, (or Nikon D4, D800, D600?)
- wide aperture (f/2.8 or faster) prime or zoom with image stabilization, probably a discrete non-white lens (Nikon, Sigma) or white lens with an appropriate dark cover.
- practice focusing; practice steadying the camera.

Depending on the distance, a camera with quiet shutter mode may be of use (5D3, 6D). Also, it will be important to learn how to turn off / tape over anything that lights up on the camera.


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## Zlatko (Dec 17, 2012)

aaronh said:


> What does this mean: "Oh, and doesn't Canon have some kind of strong signing of an image that it comes from a person/camera? Maybe he should look into that, since it probably would help with chain of custody kind of thing for any evidence." Strong signing?


Canon offers a Data Security Kit for some cameras, although a quick google suggests it's been cracked.


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## Drizzt321 (Dec 17, 2012)

Zlatko said:


> aaronh said:
> 
> 
> > What does this mean: "Oh, and doesn't Canon have some kind of strong signing of an image that it comes from a person/camera? Maybe he should look into that, since it probably would help with chain of custody kind of thing for any evidence." Strong signing?
> ...



Yea, that's what I was referring to. Too bad to hear it's been completely cracked. 

Oh, and maybe he should also get the GPS logger for the 1DX/5d3 if that's what he gets? That will help place the location of where he's shooting, and I believe even a digital compass to say which direction he's shooting in. 




Zlatko said:


> Drizzt321 said:
> 
> 
> > How far away does he need to do surveillance?
> ...



The 200 f/2.0 would probably be overkill, although I'd love to own one  The 70-200 2.8 IS would probably do just as well, and be much cheaper as well. Add on the 2X TC, and you get the 140-400, even though it does go to f/5.6 it probably could still be usable at high ISOs like on the 5d3/1DX. 

Great point about the big tripod. A beanbag on a car/wall or good quality monopod would be less obvious and easier to move around with. I'd also make sure to be using the lens-hood, even though it'll make it bigger and bulkier, it might help prevent reflections off of the front element of the lens. Most photographic lenses aren't made with the non-reflective coating like military/surveillance binoculars/scopes generally have on them.


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## wookiee2cu (Dec 17, 2012)

Since he's not interested in photography, why not just pick up the Canon PowerShot SX50 HS: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/889965-REG/Canon_PowerShot_SX50HS_Digital_Camera.html

50X optical zoom, 24-1200mm, 12.1MP, Full HD 1080p Video, Optical Image Stabilizer and High-Speed Burst HQ for 13fps Shooting.


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## Kernuak (Dec 17, 2012)

wookiee2cu said:


> Since he's not interested in photography, why not just pick up the Canon PowerShot SX50 HS: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/889965-REG/Canon_PowerShot_SX50HS_Digital_Camera.html
> 
> 50X optical zoom, 24-1200mm, 12.1MP, Full HD 1080p Video, Optical Image Stabilizer and High-Speed Burst HQ for 13fps Shooting.


I was thinking along the lines of a compact, although I couldn't offer any suggestions and low light could be an issue. While the big teles and the zooms offer good image quality, they aren't exactly discreet for surveillance.


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## jthomson (Dec 17, 2012)

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2007/3/8/sigma200500mm Perfect for low light surveillance.


Note that it comes in a discrete green colour. Not the crowd attracting white of Canon L lenses.


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## lintoni (Dec 17, 2012)

jthomson said:


> http://www.dpreview.com/news/2007/3/8/sigma200500mm Perfect for low light surveillance.
> 
> 
> Note that it comes in a discrete green colour. Not the crowd attracting white of Canon L lenses.



 Yep! That looks like a very discrete lens.


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## aaronh (Dec 17, 2012)

lintoni said:


> jthomson said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.dpreview.com/news/2007/3/8/sigma200500mm Perfect for low light surveillance.
> ...



That's perfect! I'll let him know!


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## Patrick (Dec 17, 2012)

A friend of mine is a retired Surveillance Photographer for Special Branch in the UK. He used an amazing assortment of kit for his work from sub-miniature Minox cameras which fitted into a cigarette packet and allowed for a number of real cigs too (the lens was hidden in the pack logo!) to 1200mm lenses on 35mm camera bodies (was Nikon at the time  ) when working from a hide (often a van or truck left parked some hours earlier with my friend left inside for many hours with a tripod, sandwiches and two bottles; one with water, the other empty.
His advice would be NEVER mix up the bottles! ;D


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## RLPhoto (Dec 17, 2012)

aaronh said:


> Hi, I've got a friend in law enforcement who is asking me for a recommendation for lens/camera combo for surveillance. I naturally thought to extend the question to you all!
> 
> What would you recommend as a set-up for surveillance? My friend won't be able to spend a ton of time learning the ins and outs of it and he's not interested in photography as an art. He will need to use it time to time at night and won't be using a flash (obviously).
> 
> ...



The zeiss 1700 F/4 is a perfect canidate for surveillance, If you got the arms for it. ;D

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2006/10/1/zeiss1700f4


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## pdirestajr (Dec 17, 2012)

Anyone notice what camera kit Virgil uses in Homeland? He always gets the perfect shot of his target's face, and it looks like a light setup.


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## Drizzt321 (Dec 17, 2012)

pdirestajr said:


> Anyone notice what camera kit Virgil uses in Homeland? He always gets the perfect shot of his target's face, and it looks like a light setup.



It's magic movie fairy dust. Can't you see the sparklies in the air whenever he uses it?


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## PeterJ (Dec 17, 2012)

The 7D + 100-400 seems like a good starting point, or a 70-200 f/2.8 if he needs better low light but not as much focal length. He might not need as much as you'd think, he'll probably normally want to include multiple people and/or a fair bit of background of proof of where it was taken.

Either that or he can just use a 640x480 webcam and send if off to CSI for enhacement .


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## Zlatko (Dec 17, 2012)

wookiee2cu said:


> Since he's not interested in photography, why not just pick up the Canon PowerShot SX50 HS: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/889965-REG/Canon_PowerShot_SX50HS_Digital_Camera.html
> 
> 50X optical zoom, 24-1200mm, 12.1MP, Full HD 1080p Video, Optical Image Stabilizer and High-Speed Burst HQ for 13fps Shooting.


That looks amazing. And a small camera like that is very discrete. I just wonder whether it would be any good at night?


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## Drizzt321 (Dec 17, 2012)

Zlatko said:


> wookiee2cu said:
> 
> 
> > Since he's not interested in photography, why not just pick up the Canon PowerShot SX50 HS: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/889965-REG/Canon_PowerShot_SX50HS_Digital_Camera.html
> ...



That's the big question. Also a question of Auto-Focus. Contrast detect is very accurate, but tends to be slower and you may not be able to easily tell it what part you want in focus. I haven't read any reviews, so I don't know if that applies to this camera or not.


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## wickidwombat (Dec 18, 2012)

aaronh said:


> Hi, I've got a friend in law enforcement who is asking me for a recommendation for lens/camera combo for surveillance. I naturally thought to extend the question to you all!
> 
> What would you recommend as a set-up for surveillance? My friend won't be able to spend a ton of time learning the ins and outs of it and he's not interested in photography as an art. He will need to use it time to time at night and won't be using a flash (obviously).
> 
> ...



600D with a 600FD f4.5 and edmika adapter plus a kenko 1.4 teleconverter

in video mode with the 3x digital zoom you can film in HD at equivalent focal lengths of
960mm with normal
2880mm with the 3x digital zoom in video
and
1344mm with the TC and 
4032mm if you turn on the 3x digital zoom and use the TC

All in HD and some big SD cards 

definately gonna want a gimbal and sturdy tripod too

the reason i specify this lens is that its flat out unreal for video because the focus wheels are not on the lens so you can pull focus very gently without shaking the lens like you would with a ring focus of newer lenses
its also very sharp and 1/10th of the price of a new 600 f4L not that budget is the issue but the focus mechanism is much much better for video

but as for range and potential wide aperture this is killer
the 600 FD, gimal and the camera body can all be loaded into a pelican case 1510 with wheels and handle that fits in carry on baggage on a plane

you could also remote control the camera using an android tablet an OTG cable and the chainfire app to reduce shake.


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## Don Haines (Dec 18, 2012)

This is a troll. No law enforcement officer will be asking us for information or advice.

Law enforcement agencies have experts in the field of survelience. There is gear availiable to them that is not offered up to the public, things like military grade night vision lenses, copies of the 1200 5.6 canon lens, and a host of other devices that would never appear on a public forum. Those in the know do not discuss these things in public.

If it isn't a troll, go talk to the FBI, or the RCMP, or whatever your national police force is. Posting in this forum is a very bad idea.


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## Don Haines (Dec 18, 2012)

Not my picture..... but taken from 420 kilometers away.... now thats survelience!!!! Photo credit goes to the Clay Center Observatory


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## TexPhoto (Dec 18, 2012)

You guys are funny. ;D You think Law Enforcement is like in the movies. Unlimited budgets and computers that show you the fingerprints with cool noises as they check them.

If your friend is sitting in a parking lot, that means he needs something reasonable for the inside of a car ( a 5 year old american sedan with lousy shocks and brakes). A crop DSLR and an 18-200 is probably where he wants to start. It is not unusual to shoot surveillance photos from 6 feet away, and the 18-200 gives tremendous range while easily handheld, and relatively inconspicuous. A large aperture lens like a 70-200 f2.8 will add to the night shooting ability.


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## cayenne (Dec 18, 2012)

jthomson said:


> http://www.dpreview.com/news/2007/3/8/sigma200500mm Perfect for low light surveillance.
> 
> 
> Note that it comes in a discrete green colour. Not the crowd attracting white of Canon L lenses.



You HAVE to read some of the *very creative* comments on the amazon page for these...the first page or two kept me in stitches...

http://www.amazon.com/Sigma-200-500mm-Ultra-Telephoto-Canon-Cameras/product-reviews/B0013D8VDQ/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

LOL...seeing into the future....


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## Hillsilly (Dec 18, 2012)

Zlatko said:


> aaronh said:
> 
> 
> > What does this mean: "Oh, and doesn't Canon have some kind of strong signing of an image that it comes from a person/camera? Maybe he should look into that, since it probably would help with chain of custody kind of thing for any evidence." Strong signing?
> ...


Each jurisdiction will have its own standard operating procedure for handling and post processing of photographs (whether taken by a police officer, the general public or CCTV security cameras). As long as the steps are followed, the photos will be admitted as evidence. If there are claims that the photo has been tampered with, the officer that took the photo will usually be required to testify that it is the photo they took. In the case of UV and IR forensic photographs, they might also have to explain any steps they've taken. The jury will weigh up the credibility of the police officer in coming to their verdict. In itself, nothing hard, but photographic evidence is obviously very damaging to a defendent, so they'll argue any way possible to have it excluded. The data security kit makes it a little harder to raise objections as it is one less step to overcome. (Yes - I watch a lot of CSI and Law & Order)

If you friend wants something discreet, try a micro four thirds camera with a 100-300 lens. The Nikon V1 with a 70-300 would also be pretty competent in daylight - That gives you about 810mm in real lens talk.


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## expatinasia (Dec 18, 2012)

Something to consider here is the length of the lens. If the guy is sat in a car then he will need to be flexible. 

For daylight something like the 70-300L with Kenko 1.4X (forget which one but might be DGX) may be a nice portable option. 

Then for low light something like the 70-200L usm is ii with either the same Kenko 1.4X or even Canon't 2.0X mk iii.


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## PeterJ (Dec 18, 2012)

TexPhoto said:


> You guys are funny. ;D You think Law Enforcement is like in the movies. Unlimited budgets and computers that show you the fingerprints with cool noises as they check them.


I was thinking the same. When real-time GPS tracking was less ubiquitous I used to manufacture / sell battery powered devices with magnets etc that sent in data by GPRS. I had a few guys from the local undercover division visit for a demonstration to see how my $1.5K device compared with their $10K "law enforcement only" device that used a continuous data call that cost over $500 a day in comms costs.

Anyway they found it to be technically superior, just they couldn't use it because I sold it to anyone with the cash, a practice I wasn't going to change just for a few sales to them :. Actually one of the best customer groups were jealous / suspicious partners that wanted to save the cost of a PI.


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## Don Haines (Dec 18, 2012)

Unlimited budget.... HA! and who do you accuse of watching too much TV......

You do not decide to do survelience, you are assigned to do survelience. You assign competent people to do the task and anyone competent would know enough to go talk to experts in the field, the others who have previously done similar work, who have followed things all the way through the courts, who can better advise than us on equipment, and who can show them the equipment that needs to be purchased and how and where to purchase it. (government does not just run out and spend, there is a pile of paperwork and multiple levels of sign-off needed). Sometimes it can be borrowed, and sometimes it can be borrowed with an experienced user.

Experience is something that we do not have. For instance, he talks about use at night and none of us have mentioned Litton lenses.... none of use use them... none of us know what quality of image is necessary as evidence....this is not our field and it is delusional to pretend that it is. And there is a lot more to survelience than just pictures.... and once again, we know very little about it. If the guy is real, send him to the real experts for advice. If he isn't real, you are giving advice to a stalker or paparatzi wannabe.

Every few days I get emails from the director of the FBI. I also get lots of offers of millions of dollars and apparantly there are several women in Russia that want to marry my cat..... don't believe everything you see on the internet.


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## aaronh (Dec 18, 2012)

I thought I'd follow up with more info and what my friend decided to do, in case you are interested.

This guy was closest to the reality of the situation:



TexPhoto said:


> You guys are funny. ;D You think Law Enforcement is like in the movies. Unlimited budgets and computers that show you the fingerprints with cool noises as they check them.
> 
> If your friend is sitting in a parking lot, that means he needs something reasonable for the inside of a car ( a 5 year old american sedan with lousy shocks and brakes). A crop DSLR and an 18-200 is probably where he wants to start. It is not unusual to shoot surveillance photos from 6 feet away, and the 18-200 gives tremendous range while easily handheld, and relatively inconspicuous. A large aperture lens like a 70-200 f2.8 will add to the night shooting ability.



After talking more to him about his needs, he ended up getting a T4i kit w/ 18-135 & 55-250. All the fancy CSI/NASA equipment would be "cooler" but it's a little overkill for him. Thanks for the help!


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## TexPhoto (Dec 18, 2012)

No problem! One thing people rarely consider with surveillance photography is you must capture the scene, the place. what was happening where? Headshots with wonderful bokeh from a 600 f4 will be a nice souvenir for the bad guy, but will not do much in court. The bad guy need only be recognizable, he is not selling underwear. And the photos are only meant to compliment officer testimony, not replace it. 

Of course monster lenses do have their place, but the opportunity to use one from waaaaaay far away is rare. Long shots must be set up way in advance, and buildings, trees, damn SUVs!, etc tend to get in the way. A guy in a car with a kit lens can move, and can blend.

Remind your friend to set his camera clock. Nothing worse than having t explain in court that all your photos are digitally dated and time stamped, but... the camera was off by 2 minutes, 1 hour, and 9 years. Oh and cover any lights on the front of the camera with black electrical tape. (for obvious reasons) Use P mode with Auto ISO instead of full auto (green box, idiot mode) because full auto will deploy the flash when it wants to. Or more complex settings if he is comfortable with that.

Good luck to your friend, hope he stays safe.


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## emag (Dec 18, 2012)

T4i and 55-250? That says 'surveillance' to me. Sounds like someone couldn't get an uncontested.


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## Don Haines (Dec 18, 2012)

Show me one police force in a G8 nation that does not have cameras...... Any officer doing survelience can simply walk down the hall and sign one out.... assuming that it is official business.....


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## serendipidy (Dec 18, 2012)

Don Haines said:


> Every few days I get emails from the director of the FBI. I also get lots of offers of millions of dollars and apparantly there are several women in Russia that want to marry my cat..... don't believe everything you see on the internet.



LOL ;D

You mean I really didn't win $100 billion USD in the Nigerian lottery?


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## SJTstudios (Dec 18, 2012)

Again, it's all about the distance.
Considering you've said "surveillance, I believe he will be a distance.

I'd go for a 1dx, since you can slip 2 cf cards in, the battery is great
Then the Gps module, it is small, light weight, and won't get in the way
Both the canon iii tc's he'll need them.
A big tripod
A monopod, if he is moving
A gimball head
Bracket foots, and all the gear.

And for super length, the 600 f4 is ii

At mid. Range, 300mm 2.8 is ii

At night, the 300 will be good, because you have the fast aperature.

But there are all kinds of other possibilities based on his needs.
-modify the cameras for thermal or infared
-hook up the camera to nvg's.

At dark, there are issues

My law enforcement in Fl has a really cool system the showed me, they had...
Spotting system
--------------------
A 1ds3 thermal image modified w/ 24-70mm 2.8
A 1ds3 infared w/ 70-200 2.8 is ii

Capture system
------------------------
A 1div thermal 300mm 2.8 is ii
A 1div infared 600mm f4 is
A 1div 400mm 2.8 is ii

Each system is mounted to a modified Gitzo athena head.
They have gps devices
All have the cable outlet plug batteries connected to a small power pack, and are returned to the station via satellite dish.

There are 3 capture systems and 1 spotting system.

The tech crew sets them up on ridges, in trees, anywhere.

Each system is monitored by one of the 4 tech specialists.

They've actually talked to homeland security about its possible border patrol use, butit's expensive! And only good for night.

I work as an intern for my local photography store, and they come in to upgrade and get things fixed, it's expensive, but a super expensive system.

My point is, he will be needing to see various things. When I hear surveillance, I think long range spy remote controlled cameras.

But if he just needs daytime manned shooting, it's just like a safari hunt. He brings along one body (1dx), but he will need various lenses, equipment.

And if it is something out in the desert or something, maybe even a camo suit.

The military does this stuff all the time, so try and find someone who does that.

Ask him to specify the surveillance, because there are various types he could need to do.

The setup could be simply an 800mm, a 1dx and a sandbag, but it may even be as complicated as my law enforcements.

And remember that desperate times call for desperate measures.

If he's trying to spy on teens selling drugs, a 1dx may not be necessary, but if someone is crossing the border with weapons, it could be that important.


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## aaronh (Dec 18, 2012)

emag said:


> T4i and 55-250? That says 'surveillance' to me. Sounds like someone couldn't get an uncontested.




Haha. Nope, that's not the case.


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## aaronh (Dec 18, 2012)

I asked him about some of the more serious high-tech they must use (he works for Homeland Security) and they do have all that stuff. He just needed something small and simple to keep with him for when he was out doing whatever it is he does. He said he mostly needs it for taking pictures of license plates and stuff like that.


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## cayenne (Dec 18, 2012)

I hope they all have proper warrants for this surveillance....

I don't like the way the powers that be are constantly trying to avoid this....but that's another thread.

<steps off soapbox>


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## dr croubie (Dec 18, 2012)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/siimvahur/4171598852/#

It was designed for the KGB, so if it's good enough for them...


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## TexPhoto (Dec 18, 2012)

serendipidy said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > Every few days I get emails from the director of the FBI. I also get lots of offers of millions of dollars and apparantly there are several women in Russia that want to marry my cat..... don't believe everything you see on the internet.
> ...



My all time favorite spam message claims the BMW corp is awarding me 800 million Euro (about $1.2B at the time) and... a Jeep. Seriously BMW is giving me 1.2 Billion and a Jeep! No extra Beemers laying around I guess.


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## KyleSTL (Dec 18, 2012)

aaronh said:


> I asked him about some of the more serious high-tech they must use (he works for Homeland Security) and they do have all that stuff. He just needed something small and simple to keep with him for when he was out doing whatever it is he does. He said he mostly needs it for taking pictures of license plates and stuff like that.


If that's the case, I would have suggested the Panasonic FZ200 for compactness (smaller than a DSLR+lens) and versatility (25-600mm f/2.8 lens). Although the AF speed would likely have disappointed and resulted in lost photo opportunities (and it would be pretty worthless in the dark).


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