# Canon officially announces the Canon EOS-1D X Mark III



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 7, 2020)

> *MELVILLE, N.Y., January 6, 2020 –* Canon U.S.A. Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today announced the highly anticipated Canon EOS-1D X Mark III camera – the successor to the world-renowned and award-winning EOS-1D X Mark II. The Company’s new flagship DSLR has been engineered and designed using extensive feedback from the professional sports, photojournalist, wildlife and wedding photographers.
> This new groundbreaking workhorse EOS-1D X Mark III DLSR Camera features:
> 
> New 20.1 Megapixel Full-frame CMOS Sensor combined with newly designed High Detail Low-Pass Filter
> ...


_

Continue reading..._


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## chrisrmueller (Jan 7, 2020)

I’m intrigued by that new AF Smart Controller. I love the Touch AF feature on the mirrorless cameras but missed the joystick, and this looks like it can be the best of both worlds: a joystick and Touch AF in one. (And of course, it still has the regular joystick.)


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## neuroanatomist (Jan 7, 2020)

Looks awesome. 

But honestly, I’m not tempted enough to buy it. Sure, if my 1D X falls off a cliff into lava I’ll replace it with a 1D X III. For me, it’s less about the degree of improvements and more about the fact that the 1D X still very effectively meets my needs.


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## cpreston (Jan 7, 2020)

DPAF in RAW 30p and 4K cropped 60p confirmed. You just can't get DPAF in the full frame 60p modes.


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## Don Haines (Jan 7, 2020)

It will sell well, yet at the same time forum pundits will use it as proof that Canon is *******.


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## $winter (Jan 7, 2020)

Order done!


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## bgoyette (Jan 7, 2020)

On the video side, a couple of things are curious. Canon refers to Canon Log and 12 stops of DR...which is fine for an 8-bit codec, but then goes on to refer to 4:2:2 10 bit and 12 bit raw. Wondering why we're seeing Canon Log instead of Log 3 or Log 2, which are the ones designed for 10-12bit workflows. The second question is what format is the camera writing the RAW to?...if it's Cinema Raw Light, you'd think they'd mention it...if it's CDNG, ughh....I thought we'd moved past that.


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## Bishop80 (Jan 7, 2020)

I'm excited by the product.
Also, the two video and stills white papers under "Resources" on the Canon site have really good information (still reading  )


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## bgoyette (Jan 7, 2020)

bgoyette said:


> On the video side, a couple of things are curious. Canon refers to Canon Log and 12 stops of DR...which is fine for an 8-bit codec, but then goes on to refer to 4:2:2 10 bit and 12 bit raw. Wondering why we're seeing Canon Log instead of Log 3 or Log 2, which are the ones designed for 10-12bit workflows. The second question is what format is the camera writing the RAW to?...if it's Cinema Raw Light, you'd think they'd mention it...if it's CDNG, ughh....I thought we'd moved past that.


Answering my own question. Canon has a cursory video covering the RAW video output. Would appear its outputting an image sequence packaged as a CRM that gets processed in a new version of DPP for output as an image sequence along with a sidecar WAV file. Strangely, the export window doesn't show anything like a "log" output, so this looks like a very clunky workflow to say the least. Perhaps resolve can handle the files and smooth the way. BTW, the RAW video has 14 stops of DR, according to the video.


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## geffy (Jan 7, 2020)

Well i did not upgrade to the II s o i guess i will save for the first mirrorless DX


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## cpreston (Jan 7, 2020)

bgoyette said:


> On the video side, a couple of things are curious. Canon refers to Canon Log and 12 stops of DR...which is fine for an 8-bit codec, but then goes on to refer to 4:2:2 10 bit and 12 bit raw. Wondering why we're seeing Canon Log instead of Log 3 or Log 2, which are the ones designed for 10-12bit workflows. The second question is what format is the camera writing the RAW to?...if it's Cinema Raw Light, you'd think they'd mention it...if it's CDNG, ughh....I thought we'd moved past that.



It appears that the Log is closest to Canon Log 3 on the new cameras. It has the general Canon Log profile but it uses the full DR of the sensor.

I would guess that since it s a crm file, this raw video will act like any other CRL format in an NLE.

As a note, I saw that the 10bit formats are h.265 and a 4:2:0 8 bit format is available in H.264. The camera can record in both raw video and an mpeg-4 format at the same time.

Honestly, it looks like Canon put some work into making this camera able to shoot decent video.


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

Okay, for a [stills only] + [OVF only] gent like myself, someone please give me the top 3 things the 1DX3 will do that the 1DX2 cannot.

Don't give me a tabled comparison. I'm just curious what the OVF stills folks are particularly geeked about with this thing.

Thx,
A


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## reef58 (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Okay, for a [stills only] + [OVF only] gent like myself, someone please give me the top 3 things the 1DX3 will do that the 1DX2 cannot.
> 
> Don't give me a tabled comparison. I'm just curious what the OVF stills folks are particularly geeked about with this thing.
> 
> ...



This probably doesn't meet your requirements, but I like the full touch screen, and I am hopeful on the autofocus improvements. The dual CF Express cards are a good move to I think. The optical AF control is cool. They are claiming a good amount of ISO improvement over the MK2. They mention improvement to the low pass filter. I will just have to wait and see. After all of my moaning and groaning about 20mp I may preorder.


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## Tirmite (Jan 7, 2020)

Has anyone seen clarification about "built-in WiFi and Bluetooth" that is mentioned? Does it in fact have a basic WiFi antenna built into the body _AND_ the option of the external WFT transmitter for faster/larger file transfer? Or is the "built-in" feature just confirming that it will accept the external accessory and without that you can't wirelessly get images out of the camera? I've got the WFT8 and the 1DxII and it is incredibly slow sometimes. Other signals in an arena can jam the device. Would be great if it has a basic transmitter in the body when you just want to export a JPEG and send it to your phone for posting or forwarding a low res file.


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## dak3 (Jan 7, 2020)

The EOS-1D X Mark III camera features a developed AF system with a maximum of* 3,869 manually selectable AF positions*, which covers almost the entire image sensing area. The EOS-1D X Mark III camera can also be configured to focus on specific areas, using an extended range of selectable modes that include 1-point AF, Expanded AF Area, Zone AF and Large Zone AF in addition to the conventional Face+ Tracking AF.

*I'm in camera heaven!!!!*


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## Tirmite (Jan 7, 2020)

@ahsanford -
(1) faster WiFi exporting with the new transmtiter supposedly (remains to be seen. previous device can bog down if there's radio interference in the area), (2) new file format might be nice if you want more than a JPEG offers but don't want to deal with RAW files, and (3) head/face/eye detection AF is a big deal whether you're doing head shots or sports. That alone has me interested in upgrading. If it can eventually (firmware?) recognize animal faces/eyes then that could be incredibly helpful to wildlife shooters. I know you emphasized STILLS ONLY, but having FF video now instead of the previous smaller crop is a big deal. Wide angles stay truly wide and you could shoot 4K or almost 6K video and grab decent resolution still frames from that footage. 16-20 fps 20MP files or 30-60 fps grab frame at 8-10MP's (i'm guessing). Pretty sweat.


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## Adelino (Jan 7, 2020)

$winter said:


> Order done!


Are you saying Canon are NOT *******???


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## fox40phil (Jan 7, 2020)

Nice! Head detection via viewfinder !... like a hybride (90D has it also?!).
enough said about the MP... the in the rumor thread ;P. Lets hope the next one has a huge step in MP - maybe with individual M & S-Raw resolution!


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## BlueBomberTurbo (Jan 7, 2020)

dak3 said:


> The EOS-1D X Mark III camera features a developed AF system with a maximum of* 3,869 manually selectable AF positions*, which covers almost the entire image sensing area. The EOS-1D X Mark III camera can also be configured to focus on specific areas, using an extended range of selectable modes that include 1-point AF, Expanded AF Area, Zone AF and Large Zone AF in addition to the conventional Face+ Tracking AF.
> 
> *I'm in camera heaven!!!!*
> View attachment 188075



That's in Live View. Similar to how the EOS R works. Except you have to hold the camera out in front of you to use it.......


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## fox40phil (Jan 7, 2020)

how about some new tele converters?! Any rumors^^?! would be nice to have some with just better performance for those newer cameras!


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## raptor3x (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Okay, for a [stills only] + [OVF only] gent like myself, someone please give me the top 3 things the 1DX3 will do that the 1DX2 cannot.
> 
> Don't give me a tabled comparison. I'm just curious what the OVF stills folks are particularly geeked about with this thing.
> 
> ...



Better subject tracking through the OVF, face/head tracking for humans as well as animal tracking. A completely new AF system with 191 AF points. Shorter OVF blackout time. A new mirror mechanism to reduce mirror slap. 16fps with full AE/AF. A new sensor with improved sensitivity. Illuminated buttons. Dual CFExpress slots. Roughly double the battery life.

This seems like a bigger upgrade to the 1DXii than that camera was to the original 1DX.


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## ethanz (Jan 7, 2020)

So I was right about the DPAF in 4k60 crop. Let's see some images to know how good this sensor actually is!


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## Chaitanya (Jan 7, 2020)

That frame buffer is insane, eagerly waiting for RF mount based replacement to 7D series using similar tech to this camera.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

cpreston said:


> DPAF in RAW 30p and 4K cropped 60p confirmed. You just can't get DPAF in the full frame 60p modes.


Yeah, as we discussed, 2.4Gpx per second internal throughput is just way to much and they had to use a 1.3 crop mode instead. That is a 1.42Gpx per second internal throughout instead of 2.4. Which is obviously more manageable. 
This is obviously a technical limitation and not a “Cripple Hammer” according to forum trolls.


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## Drcampbellicu (Jan 7, 2020)

[QUOTE="Canon Rumors Guy, post: 807796, member:
_Continue reading..._
[/QUOTE]

the mirrorless action camera should be pretty good. This camera has quite a few internal improvements. 
the Af improvements and ibis should make the new R substantial


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## HarryFilm (Jan 7, 2020)

Good on Canon! I always liked the 1Dx2's and even though we have other in-house MF cameras now, we'll still have pre-ordered 10 of the 1Dx3's by next week BUT I still note I see NOTHING for 65mm Medium Format Sensors at 50.3 megapixels and 16-bits per colour channel YET! Hmmmmmm..... Better get to the drawing board Canon, cuz 65mm is coming a lot faster than you think!

.


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## raptor3x (Jan 7, 2020)

I have to say, I'm very impressed by what Texas Instruments appears to have pulled off here. In the past few generations it seemed like Canon was limited by the DIGIC processors in terms of what they could do for processing, but that Canon can pull all of this off with a single DIGIC X means that must be an insanely powerful chip. Assuming that same chip goes into the upcoming EOS R cameras, I think Sony should be feeling a bit nervous.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

1. Do we know what the new AF spread looks like in 1Dx III?
2. Any indication of presence of the DPRAW option ?


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## Aussie shooter (Jan 7, 2020)

Digic X. Interesting. Looks like the digic 9 is already surpassed


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## SlydeR (Jan 7, 2020)

Beast of a camera!!  The new AF system looks great...unfortunately I still have to stick with my 1DX mkii for now, since I'm more in the lookout for a mirrorless higher resolution model with decent fps (I'm good with 10)


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## SlydeR (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 1. Do we know what the new AF spread looks like in 1Dx III?
> 2. Any indication of presence of the DPRAW option ?



1. Only saw it from the menu (attached) and not through the OVF


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

SlydeR said:


> Beast of a camera!!  The new AF system looks great...unfortunately I still have to stick with my 1DX mkii for now, since I'm more in the lookout for a mirrorless higher resolution model with decent fps (I'm good with 10)


20Mp — 20fps
40Mp - 10fps
65Mp - 6fps

Choose your poison.

P.S. thank you. I am more so interested to know how AF points spread across the OVF for tracking and composition purposes. I doubt that Canon managed to spread AF points further out to edges but if they have, then this baby will be flying of the the shelves. Ability to track edge to edge or compose with AF points with such a wide spread is hard to overestimate. Also, could be a good indication of what to expect in 5DV.
Exciting days.


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## SlydeR (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 20Mp — 20fps
> 40Mp - 10fps
> 65Mp - 6fps
> 
> Choose your poison.



Should have said I wanted to stay in the Canon ecosystem lol...which camera is the 40Mp/10fps??


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

OVF (non-DPAF) AF spread reportedly is the same:

From Chris Nicholls's preview:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214366626105221121
It's just a short snippet of his larger video preview, but play it and turn the audio on.

- A


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## Buck (Jan 7, 2020)

i found it somewhat interesting that the weight reduction wasn't a point of emphasis, a 100 grams is 100-- grams
now that heif /heic is going on a high end camera will more web developers include that as an option vs jpeg, png type files


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 20Mp — 20fps
> 40Mp - 10fps
> 65Mp - 6fps
> 
> Choose your poison.



I would not get your hopes up. With each generation, the 1-series always gets the most stills throughput.

Last-gen:
*1DX2 = 20 x 16 = 320 MP/s*​5D4 = 30 x 7 = 210 MP/s​6D2 = 26 x 6.5 = 169 MP/s​5DS = 50 x 5 = 250 MP/s​
2 gens ago:
*1DX1 = 18 x 14 = 252 MP/s*​5D3 = 22 x 6 = 132 MP/s​6D1 = 20 x 4.5 = 90 MP/s​
The idea that we can slice the max throughput of the line-leading model into attractive combos we'd rather own is what Sony and Nikon do. Historically, Canon doesn't.

Now, if there was a 1-series high res, I'd like to see that math. But Canon hasn't married high res + 1-series in.... what, 13 years? Not holding my breath.

- A


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## BeenThere (Jan 7, 2020)

raptor3x said:


> I have to say, I'm very impressed by what Texas Instruments appears to have pulled off here. In the past few generations it seemed like Canon was limited by the DIGIC processors in terms of what they could do for processing, but that Canon can pull all of this off with a single DIGIC X means that must be an insanely powerful chip. Assuming that same chip goes into the upcoming EOS R cameras, I think Sony should be feeling a bit nervous.


There is a Digic 8 in there also.


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## unfocused (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 1. Do we know what the new AF spread looks like in 1Dx III?...



The same as the 1DX II.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

SlydeR said:


> Beast of a camera!!  The new AF system looks great...unfortunately I still have to stick with my 1DX mkii for now, since I'm more in the lookout for a mirrorless higher resolution model with decent fps (I'm good with 10)


20Mp — 20fps
40Mp - 10fps
65Mp - 6fps

Choose your poison.


ahsanford said:


> I would not get your hopes up. With each generation, the 1-series always gets the most stills throughput.
> 
> Last-gen:
> *1DX2 = 20 x 16 = 320 MP/s*​5D4 = 30 x 7 = 210 MP/s​6D2 = 26 x 6.5 = 169 MP/s​5DS = 50 x 5 = 250 MP/s​
> ...


nuh, this is all new sensor, processor and upgraded internal bus.
Canon would not hold on tech this time around. The gap between 1D and 5D series is wider than ever now. 9fps and 30-40Mp jack of all trades camera is no longer an issue from product line differentiation point of view. 20mp fast shooting camera is a thing in its own.
9fps won’t get sport photogs or PJs excited.
Current tech is:
20Mp at 20 FPS. 400Mp/s throughput.
65Mp at 6fps is within the current throughout limit.
5DV will sport at least 9fps. Let’s revisit this subject when 5DV was announced


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## Nelu (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 1. Do we know what the new AF spread looks like in 1Dx III?
> 2. Any indication of presence of the DPRAW option ?


For #1, the AF spread doesn't look good at all. See Gordon Laing's video on YouTube (@4:13). They're all bunched up in the center, just like before...:-(


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## SlydeR (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 20Mp — 20fps
> 40Mp - 10fps
> 65Mp - 6fps
> 
> ...



I used a 5D mkIV for a sports event (night street event) and wanted to toss it!! It was a rented body, so that wasn't a viable option lol 
Struggled with tracking in low light and the buffer was horrendous


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## Bishop80 (Jan 7, 2020)

For everyone asking about the 20 megapickles, Canon addresses the question in the Stills White Paper.
See the section "4.7.2 Why 20 Million Pixels?"


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## Maximilian (Jan 7, 2020)

Awesome tool.

The 20 MP surprised me a little bit since the rumors came out. Like others I was expecting 24 or something.
But even Nikon with D6 seems to think that these 20 MP are a sweet spot for that kind of gear.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

Ths


Nelu said:


> For #1, the AF spread doesn't look good at all. See Gordon Laing's video on YouTube (@4:13). They're all bunched up in the center, just like before...:-(


Thank you. Well, this is expected. There are optical limitation around DSLR tech. The only way to have AF spread to the edges is .. crop sensor ... then you have


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## SlydeR (Jan 7, 2020)

Back to the AF Spread...OVF is roughly the same as the mkii according to the white papers, but the live view is almost 100% coverage. I find it very uncomfortable to hold the camera off my face and in front of me to use the live view


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

SlydeR said:


> I used a 5D mkIV for a sports event (night street event) and wanted to toss it!! It was a rented body, so that wasn't a viable option lol
> Struggled with tracking in low light and the buffer was horrendous


Yeah?? I was wondering why... I shoot fast sports indoors with 5DIV, low light and within 200mm to 400mm ranger. Never had problem with tracking. Or buffer. I do not take more than 5-8 shoots in any given burst. I time my shots instead. 
What lens and what AF case did you use back then??


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Canon would not hold on tech this time around.



Yep, Canon will unleash full 1-series butt kicking throughput on a lower price point product _this_ time when they have done it precisely zero times before. 

Nope. Not happening unless there's a resurrection of 1DS line, in which case your 65 x 6 prediction wouldn't be that crazy. 

- A


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## unfocused (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Okay, for a [stills only] + [OVF only] gent like myself, someone please give me the top 3 things the 1DX3 will do that the 1DX2 cannot.



Better autofocus.
Interesting little button that could function something like the touch-screen focus point selection on the R.
Weaker low-pass filter for sharper images.
Better high ISO performance.
Faster frame rate with virtually unlimited buffer.

Honestly, I'm not sure that any of these things should get you excited just yet. The first four strike me as things that sound good in the promotional materials, but whether or not they are anywhere as good as promised can only be determined by actually trying out the camera. The faster frame rate should only excite you if you found the 1DxII too slow. 

Personally, I'm intrigued. But still disappointed about the resolution and want to see some raw files at 12,800 to see if the trade-off in resolution was worth it. I'm at a point in my work and life where I know I won't be buying a 1Dx IV, so I have to see if my GAS gets the best of me once this has been out for several months.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Yep, Canon will unleash full 1-series butt kicking throughput on a lower price point product _this_ time when they have done it precisely zero times before.
> 
> Nope. Not happening unless there's a resurrection of 1DS line, in which case your 65 x 6 prediction wouldn't be that crazy.
> 
> - A



You may consider the following: 

6FPS vs 9FPS vs 16 FPS: 

Do you see how high res low FPS market (studio, reproduction, Macro, landscape, fashion, product, commercial) fits into the 6FPS category quite nicely? 

So... 6fps is adequate for the market we have just described. 
6fps is not adequate for the Jack of all trades market category that can be defined by your photo generalists :events, weddings, other general applications. 
9 FPS, however is adequate for this category. Well, 10 would be nice, but... let’s keep it at 9fps. 

And then you have your 20mp/16fps action monster cam.
As you can see, there is nothing to do with technology limitation or holding back on it here. It is all about market segmentation. So once again, 5D V will be a 9fps - ish camera. 
Hi res R - 6-ish FPS Camera


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> You may consider the following:
> 
> 6FPS vs 9FPS vs 16 FPS:



We're talking apples and oranges. I fully get your approach to segmentation. I'm just saying Canon won't dole out max awesomeness for each segment because price points exist.

I'm saying other non-cinema product lines that cost less than $6499 (_which is all of them_) will not get the full 400 MP/s throughput that the 1DX3 is offering.

So the 5D5 may get 9 fps, but it won't get a 400 / 9 = 44.4 MP sensor to go with it. It'll be more like 36 x 9 or something. Prepare to be let down on 5-series and 6-series throughput, because that's what Canon does. Max possible throughput appears to be something that Canon will continue to demand top dollar for.

Hope I'm wrong -- a 44 x 9 5D5 would be pretty dope. But it isn't happening.

- A


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## jcfalconer (Jan 7, 2020)

What caught my eye: a Digic X processor and built-in wireless. Most of what I was hearing was Digic 9+ and a separate new WFT-E9 wireless transmitter (apparently that is optional, for faster transmission). Also ISO expandable to 819200 for still shots, but not sure if that will really be useful.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> We're talking apples and oranges. I fully get your approach to segmentation. I'm just saying Canon won't dole out max awesomeness for each segment because price points exist.
> 
> I'm saying other non-cinema product lines that cost less than $6499 (_which is all of them_) will not get the full 400 MP/s throughput that the 1DX3 is offering.
> 
> ...


5DV at 44Mp is not happening full stop. Done and dusted. What is my current 5DIV? 30Mp? I don’t remember. I do not believe that there is a demand for higher than 36-38-ish Mp sensor in this product segment. 
40Mp is a killing it. Let see what Canon will come up with. 
They are getting more aggressive lately due to competition. I mean at 38Mp-42Mp I would trade in my 5D IV bodies in a snap


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## -pekr- (Jan 7, 2020)

Just very minor concern - with the new AF-ON button, isn't a joystick a redundant thing now?


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## Joules (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Yep, Canon will unleash full 1-series butt kicking throughput on a lower price point product _this_ time when they have done it precisely zero times before.
> 
> Nope. Not happening


Just FYI the 1DX III is not Canon's throughput beast. At 400 MP/s it stays in the dust behind the EOS M6 II which comes in at 455 MP/s thanks to 32.5 MP 14 FPS.


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## navastronia (Jan 7, 2020)

Joules said:


> Just FYI the 1DX III is not Canon's throughput beast. At 400 MP/s it stays in the dust behind the EOS M6 II which comes in at 455 MP/s thanks to 32.5 MP 14 FPS.



Was just about to post this. Wonder how it bodes for future RF development.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> Just very minor concern - with the new AF-ON button, isn't a joystick a redundant thing now?


Not with 191 AF point. This is a DSLR not a mirrorless with gazillion AF points. In addition this is kind of touch sensor tech. I love it.


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## Joules (Jan 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Was just about to post this. Wonder how it bodes for future RF development.


The 1DX III looks to me like they went with a shutter that supports 20 FPS (which is still insane) and the resolution could have been higher if the pros they talked to had wanted it. At 24 MP it would have had slightly more throughput that the M6 II.

But they went with the lower res and probably didn't want to put any electronic shutter only frame rates in there, so it ended up not going as far as it could.

The fact that the M6 II got so much love despite the price point indicates to me that the high res R could become a serious step up over the 5Ds series and if it features a similar crop burst mode, could be a 7D III replacement for the people willing to give EVF another shot. Luckily, we only have to wait about a month to find out if that could truly be the case. Might be to good to be true though, and this is still Canon...


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 7, 2020)

As far as I can tell the Mark III addresses everything I thought needed to be fixed/improved in the Mark II. Wasn’t that the point? Sounds like a lot of people wanted something other than a 1DX.


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## Joules (Jan 7, 2020)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Sounds like a lot of people wanted something other than a 1DX.


They wanted a slice of Sony A9 mixed into their 1DX.

The 1DX III looks great, but even in this top end model Canon demonstrates that they can pull of features like focus at the edges, in near darkness or eye AF at much lower price points in live view, yet they are not able to offer it in an OVF even in the highest end OVF they ever did (and likely ever will do). It will be interesting to see what we get once the 1DX mirrorless equivalent arrives.


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## navastronia (Jan 7, 2020)

Joules said:


> The 1DX III looks to me like they went with a shutter that supports 20 FPS (which is still insane) and the resolution could have been higher if the pros they talked to had wanted it. At 24 MP it would have had slightly more throughput that the M6 II.
> 
> But they went with the lower res and probably didn't want to put any electronic shutter only frame rates in there, so it ended up not going as far as it could.
> 
> The fact that the M6 II got so much love despite the price point indicates to me that the high res R could become a serious step up over the 5Ds series and if it features a similar crop burst mode, could be a 7D III replacement for the people willing to give EVF another shot. Luckily, we only have to wait about a month to find out if that could truly be the case. Might be to good to be true though, and this is still Canon...



It's like . . . and bear in mind, I'm a 1DX-series spectator, but . . . the thing we hear over and over is that the processors in the 1DX line have to be "so powerful" in order to support the "massive amount of data" the camera is handling, and yet, the DIGIC X processor is pushing fewer MP/sec than a processor in a camera priced under 1K.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong; I'm speculating out loud, not making an argument here, but does the 1DX mk. III _really_ have so much horsepower, or is this just marketing?


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## Joules (Jan 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong; I'm speculating out loud, not making an argument here, but does the 1DX mk. III _really_ have so much horsepower, or is this just marketing?


I never saw where the notion that lots of data requires lots of processing power comes from. Sure, it needs to be compressed, but I would have thought Canon had figured out how to do that efficiently long ago.

Evaluation of the AF system, which in the 1DX III has a ton of information to process, is likely what requires the high end chips. And jn this instance, the massive video specs as well.


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## TPatS (Jan 7, 2020)

So no ibis, that's not a surprise. Now you have to wonder how much weight you can give to those nikon rumours about ibis in the d6.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> It's like . . . and bear in mind, I'm a 1DX-series spectator, but . . . the thing we hear over and over is that the processors in the 1DX line have to be "so powerful" in order to support the "massive amount of data" the camera is handling, and yet, the DIGIC X processor is pushing fewer MP/sec than a processor in a camera priced under 1K.
> 
> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong; I'm speculating out loud, not making an argument here, but does the 1DX mk. III _really_ have so much horsepower, or is this just marketing?


There are number or limiting factors at play here.: 20FPS mechanical shutter is one of these. Maximum number of shots to fill the buffer. At this point of time, I do not believe Canon is holding off due to marketing. It is all about technological limitations.


----------



## navastronia (Jan 7, 2020)

Joules said:


> I never saw where the notion that lots of data requires lots of processing power comes from. Sure, it needs to be compressed, but I would have thought Canon had figured out how to do that efficiently long ago.
> 
> Evaluation of the AF system, which in the 1DX III has a ton of information to process, is likely what requires the high end chips. And jn this instance, the massive video specs as well.



Surely, though, in live-view mode, the 1DX mk. III is not doing more autofocus calculations than the M6 mk. II? Perhaps it's the complex phase detection AF that kicks in when the OVF is in use (and the "head detect" software therein).


----------



## Adelino (Jan 7, 2020)

jcfalconer said:


> What caught my eye: ISO expandable to 819200 for still shots, but not sure if that will really be useful.


It will not be. I would love to be wrong though.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong; I'm speculating out loud, not making an argument here, but does the 1DX mk. III _really_ have so much horsepower, or is this just marketing?




Unerstand that I'm stills + OVF obsessed, and that's not the full picture throughput-wise. DPAF, video, tracking, etc. are not concerns of mine but certainly may represent a serious load on the processing.

So please take my very crude MP x fps examples as just one nutty way of looking at throughput. Other far brighter people than I on this forum will give you better answers on this.

- A


----------



## addola (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Yeah, as we discussed, 2.4Gpx per second internal throughput is just way to much and they had to use a 1.3 crop mode instead. That is a 1.42Gpx per second internal throughout instead of 2.4. Which is obviously more manageable.
> This is obviously a technical limitation and not a “Cripple Hammer” according to forum trolls.



I believe many cameras do a slightly cropped mode for higher fps modes, I think Fujifilm & Panasonic do that. But according to the spec sheet on Canon's website, AF doesn't function with 60fps RAW & uncropped 4K/60fps.

However, I think the "no audio recording" with 1080/120fps is weird, because I think cheaper cameras from Sony, Nikon & Panasonic does that with AF & audio.


----------



## navastronia (Jan 7, 2020)

addola said:


> I believe many cameras do a slightly cropped mode for higher fps modes, I think Fujifilm & Panasonic do that. But according to the spec sheet on Canon's website, AF doesn't function with 60fps RAW & uncropped 4K/60fps.
> 
> *However, I think the "no audio recording" with 1080/120fps is weird, because I think cheaper cameras from Sony, Nikon & Panasonic does that with AF & audio.*



Jared Polin mentions this in his announcement summary (I'm not linking to it, but it's out there for those interested).


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

addola said:


> I believe many cameras do a slightly cropped mode for higher fps modes, I think Fujifilm & Panasonic do that. But according to the spec sheet on Canon's website, AF doesn't function with 60fps RAW & uncropped 4K/60fps.
> 
> However, I think the "no audio recording" with 1080/120fps is weird, because I think cheaper cameras from Sony, Nikon & Panasonic does that with AF & audio.


I am not doing video, but if I had to, I would use an external audio recorder anyway. In-camera audio recording is noisy. Correct?


----------



## navastronia (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Unerstand that I'm stills + OVF obsessed, and that's not the full picture throughput-wise. DPAF, video, tracking, etc. are not concerns of mine but certainly may represent a serious load on the processing.
> 
> So please take my very crude MP x fps examples as just one nutty way of looking at throughput. Other far brighter people than I on this forum will give you better answers on this.
> 
> - A



I think it's wise to keep talking about this stuff, despite us not all being mechanical and electronic engineers, as long as we're being reasonable and are willing to admit when someone more educated/knowledgeable can offer better information.

Continuing to speculate:

Like the 1DX Mk. III, the M6 mk. II also has DPAF, video, and tracking that it has to do, apparently while pushing more image data. I _do_ think that the specs revealed in this announcement, married to the price of the system, merit some degree of skepticism (and indeed, some of the commentary here _is_ asking meaningful questions about what consumers are meant to pay for when they invest in this body) ---- before I get flamed, let add that I'm not devaluing the design, the weather sealing, the usability, or the toughness --- although, to be fair, the 1D series did already innovate many of these things years ago . . .


----------



## Joules (Jan 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> I think it's wise to keep talking about this stuff, despite us not all being mechanical and electronic engineers, as long as we're being reasonable and are willing to admit when someone more educated/knowledgeable can offer better information.
> 
> [...]
> 
> _I do_ think that the specs revealed in this announcement, married to the price of the system, merit some degree of skepticism


On that note, here's what Canon apparently wants us to believe:

"
At the heart of the 1DX Mark III is a new Digic X chip, which Canon says will be the start of a new family of camera processors. These will apparently be tailored to each camera – you won't get the same Digic X in a Canon M series, for example – but they will all come under the umbrella name 'Digic X'.

It's tricky to say precisely how much of a leap this is from the current Digic 9, but compared to the dual processors in the 1DX Mark II, Canon says it can crunch computational data 380 times faster and process images three times quicker."

From: https://www.techradar.com/reviews/canon-1dx-mark-iii


----------



## wockawocka (Jan 7, 2020)

neuroanatomist said:


> Looks awesome.
> 
> But honestly, I’m not tempted enough to buy it. Sure, if my 1D X falls off a cliff into lava I’ll replace it with a 1D X III. For me, it’s less about the degree of improvements and more about the fact that the 1D X still very effectively meets my needs.



It's quite literally, just 'more' of the same.


----------



## Viggo (Jan 7, 2020)

SlydeR said:


> Back to the AF Spread...OVF is roughly the same as the mkii according to the white papers, but the live view is almost 100% coverage. I find it very uncomfortable to hold the camera off my face and in front of me to use the live view


This is a big reason I sold the 1dx2 and bought the R. The freedom that AF systems give for composition has completely transformed how I shoot for the better.

I wonder how the the AF-ON button focus point selection is implemented. I wouldn’t want to suddenly change my focus point position just because I wasn’t pressing directly down on the button. I’m sure it isn’t like that, but would be nice to have more info on that.


----------



## navastronia (Jan 7, 2020)

Viggo said:


> This is a big reason I sold the 1dx2 and bought the R. The freedom that AF systems give for composition has completely transformed how I shoot for the better.
> 
> I wonder how the the AF-ON button focus point selection is implemented. I wouldn’t want to suddenly change my focus point position just because I wasn’t pressing directly down on the button. I’m sure it isn’t like that, but would be nice to have more info on that.



The R and RP's autofocus are really something, and I'm hotly anticipating how AF will work in a pro-level (1DX) mirrorless. I think with DPAF and eye-AF, in a body where exceptional AF is a primary focus (get it?), we're on the verge of a true breakthrough. Eventually: algorithms that help determine, and then focus on, even non-person subjects? Yes, please.


----------



## navastronia (Jan 7, 2020)

Joules said:


> "At the heart of the 1DX Mark III is a new Digic X chip, which Canon says will be the start of a new family of camera processors. These will apparently be tailored to each camera – you won't get the same Digic X in a Canon M series, for example – but they will all come under the umbrella name 'Digic X'.
> 
> It's tricky to say precisely how much of a leap this is from the current Digic 9, but compared to the dual processors in the 1DX Mark II, Canon says it can crunch computational data 380 times faster and process images three times quicker."
> 
> From: https://www.techradar.com/reviews/canon-1dx-mark-iii


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> The R and RP's autofocus are really something, and I'm hotly anticipating how AF will work in a pro-level (1DX) mirrorless. I think with DPAF and eye-AF, in a body where exceptional AF is a primary focus (get it?), we're on the verge of a true breakthrough. Eventually: algorithms that help determine, and then focus on, even non-person subjects? Yes, please.


I detect a sarcastic notes here?? I hope you realise that DPAF and eye AF is a live view tech and not a primary operational mode for OVF centric machine?
I would expect an increased level of “stickiness” of AF tracking in AI Servo especially with busy backgrounds. Improved face detection mode and a snapper AF operation in general.


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## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 7, 2020)

Well there's a lot that I like the look of. A lot. Maybe out of my budget for the moment but I'd certainly give it some thought. 

Whats more interesting to me is that in live view there's in fact an extremely good mirrorless setup in there. Now yes I am a M6 II fanboy but I do need something more along the lines of a 7D mkII for the abuse I put camera through .... so TBH the thought of the new Canon MILC tech in a proper MILC pro body is thought provoking. Gimme at least 10fps and two card slots to go as well. 

EOS R Sport? Ill buy that


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## serhatakbal (Jan 7, 2020)

I am very offended by Canon..
I said I love you, but the answer I received -yes I know!


----------



## navastronia (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I detect a sarcastic notes here?? I hope you realise that DPAF and eye AF is a live view tech and not a primary operational mode for OVF centric machine?
> I would expect an increased level of “stickiness” of AF tracking in AI Servo especially with busy backgrounds. Improved face detection mode and a snapper AF operation in general.



Not sarcasm, and I was communicating enthusiasm for the way AF tech could work in a future, pro-level mirrorless body, as I said in the post.


----------



## Viggo (Jan 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Not sarcasm, and I was communicating enthusiasm for the way AF tech could work in a future, pro-level mirrorless body, as I said in the post.


Absolutely agreed. I can shoot at 5 FPS and still have a much better hit rate with decisive moments with the R than I ever did at 14 FPS with the 1dx2. The only time the 1dx2 was better was with the most insane movements like someone tripping and falling flat on their face or tracking a bouncy ball shot out of a canon into an elevator. But, even with the kids on a swing up close the 1dx2 was terrible where the R is nearly flawless, at f1.2.


----------



## canonnews (Jan 7, 2020)

navastronia said:


> It's like . . . and bear in mind, I'm a 1DX-series spectator, but . . . the thing we hear over and over is that the processors in the 1DX line have to be "so powerful" in order to support the "massive amount of data" the camera is handling, and yet, the DIGIC X processor is pushing fewer MP/sec than a processor in a camera priced under 1K.



There's more to it than that.. the 1 series processes AF and AE information faster and probably more often, things like iTR need some umph as well.

RAW video requires a massive amount of data, as does oversampled 4K video.

consider the 1DX Mark II has DIGIC 4, and two DIGIC 6+'s and that's replaced by one DIGIC X and far FAR FAR less power drain with around 2x or more shots per battery, is freaking impressive.

Also MP/sec isn't everything. there's a top end to FPS with mechanical mirror assemblies and there's a difference between how hard it is to make a full frame sensor move data as quickly as an APS-C sensor.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jan 7, 2020)

Well. I think there is little question that this will be the greatest DSLR ever made(within certain parameters and with the acknowledgement that it cannot cover all use cases). But the 'mirrorless' features it seems to be boasting are a major shot over Sonys bow. The features in a full mirrorless body(with real ergonomics unlike Sony gives) married to RF lenses would be truly exceptional (excepting the reality that an EVF will likely never beat an OVF for extended and persistent use)


----------



## $winter (Jan 7, 2020)

Adelino said:


> Are you saying Canon are NOT *******???


no never  silent electronic shooting for weddings awesome, long battery live (i get already +/-1500 mixed shots 50/50 liveview/OVF shots with the mkII), Ai-Servo in live for stills.
A guy here: 



 is claming 4000 shots @50%battery live


----------



## scyrene (Jan 7, 2020)

SlydeR said:


> Back to the AF Spread...OVF is roughly the same as the mkii according to the white papers



This rather reinforces the notion - that some people conveniently ignored when the 6D2 came out and people complained about the extra AF points being 'bunched up' - that traditional AF points can't be placed too close to the edge of the frame for technical reasons (which is certainly true). But perhaps those same people will coninue to believe it's some kind of malign conspiracy...


----------



## Photox (Jan 7, 2020)

canonnews said:


> There's more to it than that.. the 1 series processes AF and AE information faster and probably more often, things like iTR need some umph as well.
> 
> RAW video requires a massive amount of data, as does oversampled 4K video.
> 
> ...


You got that one abit wrong. It has *one DIGIC X* processor which replaces the two DIGIC 6+ ones, but there is still *an additional DIGIC 8 dedicated for AF/AE*. I'm personaly most happy to see things like new AF-ON button, head/face tracking via OVF (still dont quite know how this is done?) and built in wifi.


----------



## scyrene (Jan 7, 2020)

The thing I'm most interested to see is high ISO samples. There ought not to be much difference in raw, but all the same, if they're touting a new high base ISO of a hundred thousand, then it might be a touch better.


----------



## koenkooi (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I would not get your hopes up. With each generation, the 1-series always gets the most stills throughput.
> 
> Last-gen:
> *1DX2 = 20 x 16 = 320 MP/s*​5D4 = 30 x 7 = 210 MP/s​6D2 = 26 x 6.5 = 169 MP/s​5DS = 50 x 5 = 250 MP/s​
> ...


This gen:
* M6II = 32.5 x 14 = 455 MP/s*
1DX3 = 20 x 20 = 400MP/s


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## CanoKnight (Jan 7, 2020)

Canon is a sinking ship. Sony has fired several torpedos at Canon and there is water rushing in which cannot be stopped but can only be slowed somewhat, such as with this model which comes in too late but still unusable as a video camera. Canon will eventually take enough water and sink to the bottom.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> Canon is a sinking ship. Sony has fired several torpedos at Canon and there is water rushing in which cannot be stopped but can only be slowed somewhat, such as with this model which comes in too late but still unusable as a video camera. Canon will eventually take enough water and sink to the bottom.


1Dx III is unusable as a video camera? This is nuts! Nice and simple. What are you Sony trolls are smoking? Do you even understand the level of absurdity of what you have just said? I guess, no...


----------



## hne (Jan 7, 2020)

Joules said:


> I never saw where the notion that lots of data requires lots of processing power comes from. Sure, it needs to be compressed, but I would have thought Canon had figured out how to do that efficiently long ago.
> 
> Evaluation of the AF system, which in the 1DX III has a ton of information to process, is likely what requires the high end chips. And jn this instance, the massive video specs as well.



You'd have to do some sort of calculation per pixel. Even at one clock cycle per pixel you'd be looking at a full 1.2GHz CPU core at 5.5k60p, and believe me - you ain't implementing no compression algorithm with a single cycle per pixel!
20fps for 20Mpx stills is limited by something else.


Joules said:


> On that note, here's what Canon apparently wants us to believe:
> 
> "
> At the heart of the 1DX Mark III is a new Digic X chip, which Canon says will be the start of a new family of camera processors. These will apparently be tailored to each camera – you won't get the same Digic X in a Canon M series, for example – but they will all come under the umbrella name 'Digic X'.
> ...



Reading between the lines of the marketing mumbojumbo, I get the impression that the Digic X has not only a hardware implementation of jpeg compression, but also at least one TPU for the head detection. Face detection seems to be implemented on the Digic8 with a "handover" to head detection made by the Digic X. Having a shorter buffer with HEIF indicates that the processor can't keep up with 20fps for that format.

Still, this looks like an absurdly power efficient image processing pipeline, definitely purpose-built. Kudos to the Canon engineers!


----------



## Roo (Jan 7, 2020)

I had a short hands on with it today and that thumb touch to move focus points is awesome. It is so fluid to move points around the screen. When in landscape orientation, the button on the grip doesn't activate until the camera is rotated through over 45 degrees to prevent accidental point movement through contact with your palm. 

I can't think of a time I would shoot sports in live view but 20fps silent using the electronic shutter is impressive - the only way you can tell it's shooting is the quick flickering of the focus points.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jan 7, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> Canon is a sinking ship. Sony has fired several torpedos at Canon and there is water rushing in which cannot be stopped but can only be slowed somewhat, such as with this model which comes in too late but still unusable as a video camera. Canon will eventually take enough water and sink to the bottom.


Wow. Are you a flat earther too?


----------



## CanoKnight (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 1Dx III is unusable as a video camera? This is nuts! Nice and simple. What are you Sony trolls are smoking? Do you even understand the level of absurdity of what you have just said? I guess, no...


People who want to shoot serious video won't buy this camera. Those who buy this won't be using it as a video camera. Packing this particular model with video features is a PR move from Canon aimed at showing Canon is not behind in video technology , which they are.


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## Viggo (Jan 7, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> People who want to shoot serious video won't buy this camera. Those who buy this won't be using it as a video camera. Packing this particular model with video features is a PR move from Canon aimed at showing Canon is not behind in video technology , which they are.


Yes, of course you’re right, that’s why the 5d mkII was used in Avengers among other high end movies.
A Norwegian, excellent, tv-series called “Dag” was filmed exclusively with the 5d2 and 1d4 and I’ve always thought it looked amazing.


----------



## reef58 (Jan 7, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> People who want to shoot serious video won't buy this camera. Those who buy this won't be using it as a video camera. Packing this particular model with video features is a PR move from Canon aimed at showing Canon is not behind in video technology , which they are.



So they make the most advanced SLR ever made for video just to show they are not behind in technology, but they really are behind?? That makes a lot of sense. I guess I will remove this from my list. Thanks for the public service.


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## Warrenl (Jan 7, 2020)

It has a Digic X, as it does 2600 Mbps in 4K60 raw.

This camera will be exceptional for video. It is a 5.5K oversampled down to 4K Full Frame video camera with high bit rates. Yes, Sony and Fuji do 4K as well, however they are at 1/3 of the data rate. This allows a lot more push and pull of the video file without it degrading all the way from 1080p to 4K60. The amount of time I save with my Canon files from my 1DX2, or R compared to working with files from my other shooters who use Sony puts a smile on my face all the time.

Look at these data rates:




__





Canon U.S.A., Inc. | EOS-1D X Mark III


The ultimate EOS is here, making way for a new era in autofocus speed, accuracy and precision - the EOS-1D X Mark III.




www.usa.canon.com





By the way, I have pre-ordered the DX111, and are number 2 on the list at my store. My other DX11 will be replaced shortly. And yes, I do use my cameras for both video and sports. Each of my bodies has over 1.3 million actuations.


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## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> People who want to shoot serious video won't buy this camera. Those who buy this won't be using it as a video camera. Packing this particular model with video features is a PR move from Canon aimed at showing Canon is not behind in video technology , which they are.


What in your opinion makes this camea unusable for taking serious videos? Have you seen the surf video taken with 1Dx III that Canon has just posted?


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## rbielefeld (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> What in your opinion makes this camea unusable for taking serious videos? Have you seen the surf video taken with 1Dx III that Canon has just posted?


I will not say it will be unusable for video, but it sure is a lot harder to track fast moving subjects when you can't look through the viewfinder. This is where mirrorless shines IMO. I have shot video with my 5DIV and 1DxII and with a Sony a9 and a9II. Being able to track through the viewfinder while employing awesome continuous AF using 200-600mm of focal length is a wonderful thing. I am looking forward to Canon's fast action pro mirrorless, hoping it will meet or beat the Sony a9II. There is no way I could capture video like this using the back LCD screen. Link to video:


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

Viggo said:


> This is a big reason I sold the 1dx2 and bought the R. The freedom that AF systems give for composition has completely transformed how I shoot for the better.



100%. If you want more AF spread, pitch the mirror. The leap to DPAF spread should easily surpass whatever tiny spread improvements are still possible with EF + OVF in 2020.

- A


----------



## criscokkat (Jan 7, 2020)

CanoKnight said:
Canon is a sinking ship. Sony has fired several torpedos at Canon and there is water rushing in which cannot be stopped but can only be slowed somewhat, such as with this model which comes in too late but still unusable as a video camera. Canon will eventually take enough water and sink to the bottom.



SecureGSM said:


> 1Dx III is unusable as a video camera? This is nuts! Nice and simple. What are you Sony trolls are smoking? Do you even understand the level of absurdity of what you have just said? I guess, no...


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

Viggo said:


> But, even with the kids on a swing up close the 1dx2 was terrible where the R is nearly flawless, at f1.2.




I hear you, but that may not be entirely the camera's fault depending on which lens you've chosen. EF has some baggage that RF does not. All of the RF large aperture lenses are impressive pieces of modern tech, whereas with EF the odd L large aperture lens (EF 50 f/1.2L, EF 85 f/1.2L II) may swing and miss or take forever to lock.

I tried out the R last year with the RF 50L and other than it being FBW, it was the droid I have been looking for. That lens was brilliant compared to the EF.

- A


----------



## $winter (Jan 7, 2020)

http://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/products/eos/1d-x-mark-iii/resources/Canon_EOS_1DX_Mark_III_Still_White_Paper.pdf


----------



## Kit. (Jan 7, 2020)

rbielefeld said:


> I will not say it will be unusable for video, but it sure is a lot harder to track fast moving subjects when you can't look through the viewfinder. This is where mirrorless shines IMO.


Someone just needs to make a simple hotshoe-mounted HDMI viewfinder. Someone can be Canon.


----------



## SecureGSM (Jan 7, 2020)

rbielefeld said:


> I will not say it will be unusable for video, but it sure is a lot harder to track fast moving subjects when you can't look through the viewfinder. This is where mirrorless shines IMO. I have shot video with my 5DIV and 1DxII and with a Sony a9 and a9II. Being able to track through the viewfinder while employing awesome continuous AF using 200-600mm of focal length is a wonderful thing. I am looking forward to Canon's fast action pro mirrorless, hoping it will meet or beat the Sony a9II. There is no way I could capture video like this using the back LCD screen. Link to video:


I do not see a distinctive connection between the OP and your post. Sorry.
I do not dispute an EVF vs LCD screen point here. I am not a videographer.
However it is clear that your use case (long telephoto video) is quite specific. You are seemingly very happy with Sony A9. I am keen to understand Why are you looking to buy a Canon DSLR at this time?
Excuse my ignorence.


----------



## reef58 (Jan 7, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Someone just needs to make a simple hotshoe-mounted HDMI viewfinder. Someone can be Canon.



I actually do pretty well with a Zacuto, but I am not a serious video guy. I am 95% stills. I can track pretty well with my 5d4 in 4k using a 70-300l at 300 on all sorts of wildlife. I even work well with the 500f4 although it is usually too much for larger wildlife. I will admit I haven't tried a lot of birds. As you know there is serious crop on the 5d4 in 4k.


----------



## BillB (Jan 7, 2020)

BlueBomberTurbo said:


> That's in Live View. Similar to how the EOS R works. Except you have to hold the camera out in front of you to use it.......


Or put it on a tripod


----------



## Kit. (Jan 7, 2020)

reef58 said:


> I actually do pretty well with a Zacuto,


If that's what I think it is, they are quite expensive and not so simple. The loadable LUTs are nice, but the rest of the functionality is not really needed if you let the camera itself record the videos.


----------



## NorskHest (Jan 7, 2020)

Couple things that could have been better but im gonna buy one, if any of you want to buy my 1dxmkii with 58000 actuaions and 2 512 cfast cards and a few months of canon care left pm me


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## Viggo (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I hear you, but that may not be entirely the camera's fault depending on which lens you've chosen. EF has some baggage that RF does not. All of the RF large aperture lenses are impressive pieces of modern tech, whereas with EF the odd L large aperture lens (EF 50 f/1.2L, EF 85 f/1.2L II) may swing and miss or take forever to lock.
> 
> I tried out the R last year with the RF 50L and other than it being FBW, it was the droid I have been looking for. That lens was brilliant compared to the EF.
> 
> ...


Fair point, but I wasn’t using an EF f1.2, I’ve tried with any EF lens including; 35 L II, 24-70 f2.8 L II, 70-200 II, 16-35 f4, 85 L IS. No aperture or depth or lens can do what the RF50 and RF85 does. And might I add, neither of those has exactly blistering AF.


----------



## addola (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I am not doing video, but if I had to, I would use an external audio recorder anyway. In-camera audio recording is noisy. Correct?


True, but having the in-camera audio helps in synchronizing with the audio recorder in post. 120fps is typically meant for slow-motion with some background music so you don't usually need the audio. 

My point is why do they exclude audio in 1080/120fps in this powerful camera compared to Nikon & Sony offering. I wonder if it was a "cripple hammer", or actually a technical limitation since I believe Canon typically have higher bitrates. Nikon Z6's 1080/120fps is 144 Mbps, Sony A7 III's 1080/120 is 100 Mbps where Canon EOS R's 1080/60fps (All-I) is 180 Mbps. But, if Canon used the same codec for 1080/120, it would be 360Mbps, which I think is doable in a camera that can handle 480 Mbps (like the EOS R, for example).


----------



## RobbieHat (Jan 7, 2020)

rbielefeld said:


> I will not say it will be unusable for video, but it sure is a lot harder to track fast moving subjects when you can't look through the viewfinder. This is where mirrorless shines IMO. I have shot video with my 5DIV and 1DxII and with a Sony a9 and a9II. Being able to track through the viewfinder while employing awesome continuous AF using 200-600mm of focal length is a wonderful thing. I am looking forward to Canon's fast action pro mirrorless, hoping it will meet or beat the Sony a9II. There is no way I could capture video like this using the back LCD screen. Link to video:



Amazing video of that belted kingfisher! All the more amazing for me as I have tried to photograph them and they are quick and shy little buggers. I would like to understand more about why you think the Mark III doesn't stand up on the video front. I am not a video person and watched the promo video (surf shooting) and was quite impressed. I will cross-post my comments below from that thread. 

My impression from this video is about how far this camera has advanced its video capabilities. I am not a video shooter (I think I did it once as an experiment) but this review mentions at least 20 video centric advancements/capabilities/deficiencies and I have no idea what he is even talking about! As modern equipment is expected to serve multiple purposes I think the Mark III has hit the mark for many.

Unfortunately, for me, I was hoping for a killer wildlife rig (for stills) with more reach or cropping capability then the Mark II. We certainly got major improvements in focusing capability and FPS (needed upgrades from the Mark II) but didn't see any improvement in MP. I will be interested in hearing how this rig handles extenders (1.4 and 2x) as this would be the likely way I would have to extend me MPs. I already own the 600mm f4L II and 1.4 and 2.0 extenders. I don't get good results today from these extenders on the 5DSR (no major surprise) and never went with the 7D MII as there were too many complaints about the system. If this system shows good improvement in those areas for BIF and wildlife portraiture (eye focus) then I might still get it.

On the fence at the moment.


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## reef58 (Jan 7, 2020)

Kit. said:


> If that's what I think it is, they are quite expensive and not so simple. The loadable LUTs are nice, but the rest of the functionality is not really needed if you let the camera itself record the videos.



It is a 2.5x viewfinder which attaches to the back of the lcd. They are $250 or so.


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## Kit. (Jan 7, 2020)

reef58 said:


> It is a 2.5x viewfinder which attaches to the back of the lcd. They are $250 or so.


Ah, Z-Finder. I was thinking about one of their EVFs.


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

reef58 said:


> It is a 2.5x viewfinder which attaches to the back of the lcd. They are $250 or so.




The reality that you can flip the mirror up and get some sweet mirrorless action...
...held up 12" from your face like an iPad user = fail. Not for me. ​...with an ergonomic turd blossom of a Z-finder, loupe, etc. = DOA. Not for me at all.​...on a tripod = fine I guess for landscape/macro work, but I don't really need DPAF or peaking for that if I'm manually focusing 10x.​...with a tilty-flippy shooting high above a crowd or from a really low/odd shooting position = strong. That is a nice upgrade for me, who still uses a 5D3.​
But all the above means that I largely _won't_ get the sweet mirrorless action out of an SLR in the manner which I prefer to shoot. I'd like to do all the following in handheld shooting with the VF up to my eye:

Get massively expanded AF point coverage across the frame
Get histo info through the VF in realtime
Accurately and quickly manually focus large aperture glass (since focus screens are RIP in all but 1-series products)
Amplify light in dark rooms (for composition, focus assist, etc.)
And with EF, a proper 50 prime may never arrive. 

So for me, that means that as much as I _should_ be in the market for a 5D5 as an OVF devotee, I probably will be getting some future variant of an R instead. Whatever percentage better a 5D5 would be to my 5D3, it pales in comparison to what unlocking those four bullet points above would represent. Unlocking what I can't do today is likely more useful than improving what I can do today.

- A


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## Mikehit (Jan 7, 2020)

My, how times change.
It is not that long we were hearing from Sony fanbois how the absence of a fully articulated LCD was the ultimate indicator that Canon refused to listen to their customers. 6 pages in and the fully articulating LCD has not even been mentioned (well, it has now).

And the trade-in deals are looking good....can I or can't I? If I can afford the camera, what about a longer supertelephoto instead?.....DAMN YOU, CANON. Why won't you just die like people say you are doing????


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> My, how times change.
> It is not that long we were hearing from Sony fanbois how the absence of a fully articulated LCD was the ultimate indicator that Canon refused to listen to their customers. 6 pages in and it has not even been mentioned (well, it has now).
> 
> And the trade-in deals are looking good....can I or can't I? If I can afford the camera, what about a longer supertelephoto instead?.....DAMN YOU, CANON. Why won't you just die like people say you are doing????




Tilty-flippy on a [heavy rig with a gripped-only configuration] + [much higher likelihood of a heavy lens being attached] always seemed like an iffy mechanical / biomechanical propostion for the 1-series. Also, this is a staple instrument for sports/wildlife folks who would demand bullet-proof / NFL lineman tackleproof robustness and perfect weather sealing.

But on the A9 rigs, I see a niche where a tilty-flippy might be more valued than with the 1-series: reportage, photojournos, etc. On TV with news/political reporting, I tend to see more Sonys creeping in where Canons used to be. If you are some correspondent who has to fight through / over crowds, shoot utterly silently, need to keep form factor modest, etc. and if a grip and big glass is not needed, I could absolutely see value for a tilty-flippy with a high fps rig.

I always repost this bit from NYT's Doug Mills: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4714207/user-clip-doug-mills-switches-sony-a9

The A9 was a competitive advantage for him as other folks couldn't see what he was shooting b/c they couldn't tell _when_ he was shooting. I find that fascinating. I have no idea if he's still with Sony or if Canon won him back somehow, but this was his rationale at the time.

For _that_ niche of photog, a tilty-flippy might be welcomed.

- A


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## Del Paso (Jan 7, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> Canon is a sinking ship. Sony has fired several torpedos at Canon and there is water rushing in which cannot be stopped but can only be slowed somewhat, such as with this model which comes in too late but still unusable as a video camera. Canon will eventually take enough water and sink to the bottom.


I deeply admire your sense of humour.
I hope it was humour...because, if it wasn't, you'd be ******* !


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## PureClassA (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I am not doing video, but if I had to, I would use an external audio recorder anyway. In-camera audio recording is noisy. Correct?



Yes and no. If you are using the internal audio preamp with the internal camera microphone ...BIG YES. Noisy and nasty. Then again, in camera Mics are really just meant for the most basic scratch audio so you can Sync externally recorded audio to the video in post production much easier than trying to simply lip read.

When I shoot video on the DX2 or EOSR I'm using a hotshoe mounted, externally powered Mic from Shure or Rode plugged into the camera Mic jack (using the otherwise noisy internal preamp). However because the Mic has it's own (battery) power and preamp, I can literally turn the Camera's Mic Volume level to one or two notches above MUTE and get near perfect audio because the internal camera audio preamp at that extremely low level has nearly zero noise. I then use an external preamp/recorder with another higher grade Mic (like the Rode NTG 3 shotgun) and record to 24/96 or whatever on a Tascam or Zoom or even sometimes directly into Apple's Logic Pro on a MacBook. With two low noise signals like that, it's a real cinch to sync audio in Adobe Premier or Final Cut X or whatever you use. 

AAAAAALLLLLL that being said, shooting at 120fps in camera with ZERO ability to record any audio makes syncing in post much more of a trial and error guessing game HOWEVER, what actual freaking audio are you gonna use in SLOOOOOOO-MOOOOOOOO like that anyway? Probably none. So not having audio there isn't huge. What I'm more curious about is whether the 120fps is prebaked in camera like was on the DX2 or if you can actually send it out over HDMI now to an external Atomos or whatever because then the internal sound recording is moot since I can sent mics directly into my external recorder (Atomos Ninja V).

120fps is B-Roll stuff. Every time you see super slo-mo out there, you've got music playing over it or voice-over narration or something like that. It's probably pretty rare by comparison you'd ever use audio shot at that speed.

Set-up below. Scratch Mic on Camera, main mic, NTG3, over the interview subject. Sync in post. you can see the tascam recorder on the light stand on the left


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## AlanF (Jan 7, 2020)

Viggo said:


> Yes, of course you’re right, that’s why the 5d mkII was used in Avengers among other high end movies.
> A Norwegian, excellent, tv-series called “Dag” was filmed exclusively with the 5d2 and 1d4 and I’ve always thought it looked amazing.


Darren Aronofsky's '_Black Swan_' was shot on ARRI Super 16mm, Canon 7D, Canon 1D Mark IV, and Canon 5D Mark II. Great movie.


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## cayenne (Jan 7, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> I am not doing video, but if I had to, I would use an external audio recorder anyway. In-camera audio recording is noisy. Correct?



Well, it's nice to have as an easier means to sync your external audio to your video you shoot....and if nothing else always nice to have a backup just in case your external audio craps out for some reason...


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## PureClassA (Jan 7, 2020)

$winter said:


> no never  silent electronic shooting for weddings awesome, long battery live (i get already +/-1500 mixed shots 50/50 liveview/OVF shots with the mkII), Ai-Servo in live for stills.
> A guy here:
> 
> 
> ...



I've posted pictures on here of my 1DX2 battery shutter count exceeding 10,000 frames on a single charge. That was me shooting almost constantly at high speed 14fps for 5-6 hours with fast action, servo AF in absolutely crazy AF difficultly from moving stage LEDs sweeping and changing color constantly all in front of a full motion LED wall that was 12 feet high and 40 feet wide, and my targets were dancers leaping and erratically moving in between all that plus a mild smoke effect on stage. 

The 1000 shot count is more common when you are taking single shots or even short bursts more intermittently. If you are just going full tilt with very little downtime between shots, this battery is an absolute monster. Based on those same parameters, I bet I could crack 20k frames on a DX3 in a single charge.


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## PureClassA (Jan 7, 2020)

CanoKnight said:


> People who want to shoot serious video won't buy this camera. Those who buy this won't be using it as a video camera. Packing this particular model with video features is a PR move from Canon aimed at showing Canon is not behind in video technology , which they are.



Utterly absurd. One of the main functions that interests me is the new video features, and I can promise you I'm not alone. Take a look at what even big budget Hollywood productions occasionally do when they can't get an ARRI into a shot for one reason or another. They have been using Canon DSLR bodies (like crash cams and what not) with Magic Lantern software to capture 1080 RAW video because the Canon "look" and color science blends almost effortlessly in with ARRI footage by comparison. MadMax recently did this. Having a small form factor, robust Canon body that can now shoot 4K RAW as part of it's native Canon firmware may well increase the usage even further. Video wont be this camera's biggest market for certain, but it WILL absolutely be used by pros for video, and used very happily in a wide variety of situations.


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## unfocused (Jan 7, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I've posted pictures on here of my 1DX2 battery shutter count exceeding 10,000 frames on a single charge...I bet I could crack 20k frames on a DX3 in a single charge.



I was a little shocked at how conservative the estimates are for this battery. It's not uncommon for me to shoot over 2,000 shots during a game and I can usually shoot at least two and sometimes three games before I change out the battery.


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## PureClassA (Jan 7, 2020)

unfocused said:


> I was a little shocked at how conservative the estimates are for this battery. It's not uncommon for me to shoot over 2,000 shots during a game and I can usually shoot at least two and sometimes three games before I change out the battery.



I'm thinking they have some standard formula to determine life scale. I've had times where I only got a few hundred off a battery charge, but that was with the camera sitting up for days or weeks with a lens still strapped to it. So there has to be SOME common metric they gauge every battery by. So many shots per hour. So many bursts. Some many at Manual focus. AF. Servo AF etc... No idea what that is... But I can assure everyone that if I lay into that shutter and just hold it until the battery runs dry, I'd be well into 5 figures on shutter count.


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## davidhfe (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I would not get your hopes up. With each generation, the 1-series always gets the most stills throughput.
> 
> Last-gen:
> *1DX2 = 20 x 16 = 320 MP/s*​5D4 = 30 x 7 = 210 MP/s​6D2 = 26 x 6.5 = 169 MP/s​5DS = 50 x 5 = 250 MP/s​
> ...



This is likely wishful thinking, but given that the 1DX3 is moving from a dual processor to a single processor (for image processing, anyways) config, I think there's the opportunity for the Digic X to be in more cameras. Bumping a 5D4 to a dual processor config would likely have been a big cost and engineering (space on PCB, heat, battery) tradeoff. IF the cost of the X is low enough, I could see an "R5", RS and 1DX3 all sharing it. The reality is the mirrorless cameras are going to need that sort of horsepower for class-leading AF at this point anyways, it seems. If you remove the CPU and mirror as the limiting factor, a bump relative megapixels/sec for the 35+ and 50+ MP cameras is within the realm of possibilities.


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## AccipiterQ (Jan 7, 2020)

Well this is interesting....the AF button is a new twist I didn't expect. 

Separately, I found this in the whitepaper under 'why 20 million pixels'

_Canon consulted heavily with major press and photo agencies ..._

This seems aimed more at that audience than nature photogs. Which is fine, not everyone is going to get what they want in every camera. The wait for a new nature-focused Canon offering continues


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

davidhfe said:


> This is likely wishful thinking, but given that the 1DX3 is moving from a dual processor to a single processor (for image processing, anyways) config, I think there's the opportunity for the Digic X to be in more cameras. Bumping a 5D4 to a dual processor config would likely have been a big cost and engineering (space on PCB, heat, battery) tradeoff. IF the cost of the X is low enough, I could see an "R5", RS and 1DX3 all sharing it. The reality is the mirrorless cameras are going to need that sort of horsepower for class-leading AF at this point anyways, it seems. If you remove the CPU and mirror as the limiting factor, a bump relative megapixels/sec for the 35+ and 50+ MP cameras is within the realm of possibilities.




Didn't the 5DS somehow make the amaaaaaaazing breakthrough to get two of the latest gen DIGICs in there?

I get confused b/c the 5D3 and 5D4 got (memory fuzzy, I want to say...) one latest gen for imaging and one lesser one for a side function (metering, video, idk).

I bring this up because Canon managed to squeeze 250 MP/s stills throughput in a 5DS in 2015, and 18 months later they could only muster 210 MP/s in a nearly identical form factor housing of the 5D4. Yes, max FF shutter/mirrorbox framerates matter and that may have limited things, but it's also possible that Canon -- for a host of reasons --- wanted to throttle the 5D# line for price point or profitability reasons, protecting 1-series sales, etc. Or it's possible Canon considered a second top-tier chip like the 5DS got and realized that it would push the mirrorbox/shutter into a pricey redesign or would obliterate the battery (engineering telling mgmt: 'it's possible to do a second chip and get 30 x 12 or so... but it would dramatically impact cost/schedule and you said something about that performance level threatening 1DX2 sales').

We'll never know, but Canon typically doesn't give the highest throughput to lower tier FF cameras. I would not be shocked if the 5D5 was given 34 x 8 or so and then a 5DS2 comes out with 60 x 6 and we all wonder why the hell to buy a 5D5 at all. If Canon is to offer two $3k+ SLR lines, each one should dunk on the other in a few specs, so 36 x 10 vs. 60 x 6 is a clearer way to delineate that and justify those prices. 

- A


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## PureClassA (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I would not be shocked if the 5D5 was given 34 x 8 or so and then a 5DS2 comes out with 60 x 6 and we all wonder why the hell to buy a 5D5 at all. If Canon is to offer two $3k+ SLR lines, each one should dunk on the other in a few specs, so 36 x 10 vs. 60 x 6 is a clearer way to delineate that and justify those prices.
> 
> - A



I dont think we're gonna see a 5DS2. Canon seems to be replacing that in the R line with the "Pro" model and this rumored 75 - 83 MP monster. I Can't imagine Canon then releasing an identical DSLR version. 

I get they pretty much did that with the EOS R (basically a 5D4 without the mirror and pentaprism) but that was done to open the MILC door, which has now been accomplished. They seem to be clearly moving into MILC going forward. I think a 5D5 is certainly going to happen because of the market out there will still have enough demand in the Pro world for a native EF mount body like that. Not so sure in the high MP world though. The 5DS and 5DSR I think at this stage are now one-and-done cameras so far as DSLRs go.


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## ahsanford (Jan 7, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I dont think we're gonna see a 5DS2. Canon seems to be replacing that in the R line with the "Pro" model and this rumored 75 - 83 MP monster. I Can't imagine Canon then releasing an identical DSLR version.




Best (corporate mandated) price-protected product in Canon's history? I can't think of a stronger one over a 5 year run like this:

​
Obv the plot above does not = success commercially, it just reflects that Canon is ruthless with price on this product. This could be for a host of reasons. We've seen other companies do this out of stubbornness not to erode profit margins or from a desire to always be perceived as luxe/premium (Leica Q cameras, Sony RX1R cameras come to mind) even if the cameras weren't selling well.

But for a long period of its lifecycle above, it was the highest res FF sensor product on the market, and 'that ain't nothing'.

So I'm curious to see Canon do what you're saying. If you're a 1DS devotee who never got over Canon forcing you to choose between a 1-series feature set OR highest resolution, imagine how that camp will take losing the mirror as well.* 

(*It may not be a big deal, they all may be shooting D850s or A7III and A7IV rigs right now.)

- A


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## Mikehit (Jan 7, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Didn't the 5DS somehow make the amaaaaaaazing breakthrough to get two of the latest gen DIGICs in there?
> 
> I get confused b/c the 5D3 and 5D4 got (memory fuzzy, I want to say...) one latest gen for imaging and one lesser one for a side function (metering, video, idk).
> 
> ...


If I recall a discussion many moons ago (not sure if it had some input from a Canon person), there is a trade off on how they delegate power management - there is only so much power to go round and AF, data processing etc all have their own requirements. So I can easily see a situation where on the 5DS, it is assumed to be a studio/landscape camera so they can put everything into processing and frame rate. But the 5DIV may have had some power reserved for quicker, more accurate focus tracking. Meanwhile the 1Dx line has a monster battery where nothing needs to get compromised and also has enough to process the data for tracking (and driving!) the super teles. 

For me, I like the 1Dx2 frame rate, but an all honesty I got it because of the twitchiness of the 7D2. If the 5D5 came out with an AF (including metering sensor) that is equivalent to the current 1Dx2 and did up to 8-10fps, that would be great for me.


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## Jethro (Jan 7, 2020)

Not being a person who would ever buy one of these, my interest is what hints it provides for upcoming higher range R series and the 5Dv bodies. The Digic X sounds awesome, for example. Exceptionally exciting times.


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## Krispy (Jan 7, 2020)

Really tempted to place an order, but my 5DM4 still does what I need it to do, for now. Nothing killer yet till a Mirrorless1DX comes out.


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## canonnews (Jan 8, 2020)

Photox said:


> You got that one abit wrong. It has *one DIGIC X* processor which replaces the two DIGIC 6+ ones, but there is still *an additional DIGIC 8 dedicated for AF/AE*. I'm personaly most happy to see things like new AF-ON button, head/face tracking via OVF (still dont quite know how this is done?) and built in wifi.


I stand corrected!


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Jan 8, 2020)

The mountaineering sequences from Free Solo, which won last years Academy Award for best documentary, were filmed with 1DX Mark IIs. IMO those scenes were some of the most interesting film work of the last several years. Hard to imagine any other camera being able to get those images. The Mark III will be an order of magnitude better.


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## $winter (Jan 8, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I've posted pictures on here of my 1DX2 battery shutter count exceeding 10,000 frames on a single charge. That was me shooting almost constantly at high speed 14fps for 5-6 hours with fast action, servo AF in absolutely crazy AF difficultly from moving stage LEDs sweeping and changing color constantly all in front of a full motion LED wall that was 12 feet high and 40 feet wide, and my targets were dancers leaping and erratically moving in between all that plus a mild smoke effect on stage.
> 
> The 1000 shot count is more common when you are taking single shots or even short bursts more intermittently. If you are just going full tilt with very little downtime between shots, this battery is an absolute monster. Based on those same parameters, I bet I could crack 20k frames on a DX3 in a single charge.



My usage ist primarly for wedding reportage

lot of live view during prep. (advantage you produce less pictues, all are tacksharp with DPAF, already!) 
fast single shot some times
some burst
For that are 1500 a lot, 2 battery per day with the 1DXII im fine, i already swichted to be a liveview shooter, crazy i know!
-> the 1DMIII is very welcome, main features for me:

silent shooting
AFC in live view
Better sensor
still small file sizes with 20MP


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## CanoKnight (Jan 8, 2020)

Viggo said:


> Yes, of course you’re right, that’s why the 5d mkII was used in Avengers among other high end movies.
> A Norwegian, excellent, tv-series called “Dag” was filmed exclusively with the 5d2 and 1d4 and I’ve always thought it looked amazing.



5d2 was used in films during an era when DSLR video was considered a novelty and no one else had it.


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## Hector1970 (Jan 8, 2020)

Hard to get a real sense from all the comments if contributors here are super excited at the 1DX III that's been produced or whether its more of a damp squid.
It overall just doesn't seemed to be designed for serious amateur photographers.

'why 20 million pixels'
_"Canon consulted heavily with major press and photo agencies ..._ "

It really does seem to be designed for press agencies to able to photograph and video with the same piece of gear.
I personally don't get why a press agencies would declare a 20MP limitation as a key requirement.
20 / 22/ 24 wouldn't make a huge difference, the speed of telecommunictions is only getting quicker.
No issue with transmitting 4K video, only with 24mp photos.

The bulk of Canon 1dx sales must come from press and photo agencies.
I think a modest MP increase would have helped increase the number of upgrades from 1DX II.
I was going to upgrade but I am going to hold off for the moment.
I'll follow the reviews and see if the focusing system is that good that it justifies an upgrade.
7599 Euros is a high price to pay for an upgrade that has few spec improvements.
It's all down to its focusing ability and how it handles in expert users hands.


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## AlanF (Jan 8, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Best (corporate mandated) price-protected product in Canon's history? I can't think of a stronger one over a 5 year run like this:
> 
> View attachment 188091​
> Obv the plot above does not = success commercially, it just reflects that Canon is ruthless with price on this product. This could be for a host of reasons. We've seen other companies do this out of stubbornness not to erode profit margins or from a desire to always be perceived as luxe/premium (Leica Q cameras, Sony RX1R cameras come to mind) even if the cameras weren't selling well.
> ...


The 5DS has been available on the gray market for $1500 or so for some time now.


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## ahsanford (Jan 8, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> I personally don't get why a press agencies would declare a 20MP limitation as a key requirement.
> 20 / 22/ 24 wouldn't make a huge difference, the speed of telecommunictions is only getting quicker.
> No issue with transmitting 4K video, only with 24mp photos.
> 
> ...




Possible, but I'd consider the alternate perspective: I just don't understand how +2 or +4 MP is a purchasing determinant. If I want more res or more cropping power, I'd go big and get a purpose-built high res tool.

As it stands, let's say they did go from 20 to 24 MP:

20 MP: 5477 x 3651​24 MP: 6000 x 4000​​It's a vapor level of improvement for what... improvement's sake? I fail to see how 24 MP is some detail breakthrough, or how it unlocks massive cropping potential.

And I'm guessing (complete speculation on my part) that news agencies didn't explicitly say 'No more than 20 MP', but they probably gave indirect snippets that painted a consistent picture for Canon:

"Our primary business is on the web and social media -- it just needs to pop for our client on IG"
"I'm with [huge agency], man, they give me whatever lens I need. Cropping is for wildlifers, not for us."
"I want better low light performance more than I want more detail"
"Framerate > detail for sports/action shooters: better chance to nail the pivotal moment"
"Our business is about being first, not best. Zero post-processing would be great"
"Our reporters have to upload from phones on site, please keep file size in mind"
And it's entirely possible Canon ran the numbers on multiple configurations and determined that some high-value claim or feature (20 fps, endless buffer, etc.) would come off the board if they bumped the res.

- A


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## Aussie shooter (Jan 8, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> Hard to get a real sense from all the comments if contributors here are super excited at the 1DX III that's been produced or whether its more of a damp squid.
> It overall just doesn't seemed to be designed for serious amateur photographers.
> 
> 'why 20 million pixels'
> ...



It doesn't sound like they declared 20mp as a 'limitation' as such. They said it was 'sufficient' therefore Canon has decided to aim for that one stop of high ISO performance over an increase in MP as well as reducing the strength of the AA filter(which will effectively give a resolution bump over the 1dx2 anyway) as an increase in MP was not deemed necessary for the target audience.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 9, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> It doesn't sound like they declared 20mp as a 'limitation' as such. They said it was 'sufficient' therefore Canon has decided to aim for that one stop of high ISO performance over an increase in MP as well as reducing the strength of the AA filter(which will effectively give a resolution bump over the 1dx2 anyway) as an increase in MP was not deemed necessary for the target audience.



I was torn between going for higher resolution via 5D4 or 1 level camera via 1DX2. It went on for weeks and finally my wife nudged me over the edge - she sees 1D as "the best". Essentially it was a coin toss. To compensate for no bump in MPs (sold the 6D) I bought the 400 DO II, really over-spending and rationalized that 400 X2 based on reputable comments would be very satisfactory. Truth is, 800 did put me within reach for a lot of birding situations but as more samples of the results of high MP shots passed by me I came to realize that my cropping capabilities were now more limited if I wished to maintain the detail and sharpness I was accustomed to (I had previously used the 300 2.8 II, which uncropped was amazing).

As a retired person and just an amateur photographer what in the world is wrong with me not just being satisfied with what I've got?! Well, the problem is I tend towards being a perfectionist; nothing to do with showing off, I just love excellent results. Honestly, I can't afford this hobby but by cutting out other likes, I do, and I really enjoy it. 

With over 3 years of fun with the 1DX2, I've absolutely loved the 14 FPS and the 4K60 and could have been quite happy with a boost of 4 or slightly more MPs and in that case jumped on the expensive 1DX3 bandwagon. Others say no, but I maintain that often I'm on the edge, where cropping that would be offset by those extra MPs, would be very much appreciated. Perhaps by analogy it could be compared to having a car that tops out at 55 when speed limits are 60.

On the other hand, talking about being on the edge, recently in Costa Rica, I was reminded what it was like to have roughly 12 hours of light and dark and mist and deep shadows in jungles and, well, there is no doubt that low noise higher ISO would have been really helpful especially when I was at F4 X2. In many of those cases my reach with 800 (560 probably would have worked too) was fine but the lighting just wasn't there. 

So, which poison do I choose. What I'm reading about the 1DX3 resonates because I am very aware of improvements that could be game changing if the reports are trustworthy but would I ever be happy with just 20 MPs. Anyone else feel like me, or share the same thoughts?  

Jack


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## privatebydesign (Jan 9, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> It doesn't sound like they declared 20mp as a 'limitation' as such. They said it was 'sufficient' therefore Canon has decided to aim for that one stop of high ISO performance over an increase in MP as well as reducing the strength of the AA filter(which will effectively give a resolution bump over the 1dx2 anyway) as an increase in MP was not deemed necessary for the target audience.


Yes but that is an easily disproven fallacy. Besides there is no way there is going to be a 1 stop improvement in high iso performance. The 20mp number was set by the limitation of video raw readout, they could do 5.4k, they couldn’t do 5.9k so 20mp it was! The mp count of the 1DX iii was set by a video performance limitation.


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## Aussie shooter (Jan 9, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> I was torn between going for higher resolution via 5D4 or 1 level camera via 1DX2. It went on for weeks and finally my wife nudged me over the edge - she sees 1D as "the best". Essentially it was a coin toss. To compensate for no bump in MPs (sold the 6D) I bought the 400 DO II, really over-spending and rationalized that 400 X2 based on reputable comments would be very satisfactory. Truth is, 800 did put me within reach for a lot of birding situations but as more samples of the results of high MP shots passed by me I came to realize that my cropping capabilities were now more limited if I wished to maintain the detail and sharpness I was accustomed to (I had previously used the 300 2.8 II, which uncropped was amazing).
> 
> As a retired person and just an amateur photographer what in the world is wrong with me not just being satisfied with what I've got?! Well, the problem is I tend towards being a perfectionist; nothing to do with showing off, I just love excellent results. Honestly, I can't afford this hobby but by cutting out other likes, I do, and I really enjoy it.
> 
> ...


Ah. To be able to have the best of both worlds. Nothing worse than havint to pick between two important aspects. If i had the cash to drop i would be in a dilemma as well. Lucky for me i dont


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## Aussie shooter (Jan 9, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Yes but that is an easily disproven fallacy. Besides there is no way there is going to be a 1 stop improvement in high iso performance. The 20mp number was set by the limitation of video raw readout, they could do 5.4k, they couldn’t do 5.9k so 20mp it was! The mp count of the 1DX iii was set by a video performance limitation.


I would be surprised if they eeked out a full stop of improvement as well but you never know. As for the resolution. Pretty annoying for stills(particularly wildlife) shooters if it was a video spec that limited the resolution. I suppose the only bright side might be that now they have the 1 series shooting at 16fps they might give the 5 series at least 10fps with the higher resolution and a lot of the focusing capabilities. I would take that.


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## Travel_Photographer (Jan 9, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> I was torn between going for higher resolution via 5D4 or 1 level camera via 1DX2. It went on for weeks and finally my wife nudged me over the edge - she sees 1D as "the best". Essentially it was a coin toss. To compensate for no bump in MPs (sold the 6D) I bought the 400 DO II, really over-spending and rationalized that 400 X2 based on reputable comments would be very satisfactory. Truth is, 800 did put me within reach for a lot of birding situations but as more samples of the results of high MP shots passed by me I came to realize that my cropping capabilities were now more limited if I wished to maintain the detail and sharpness I was accustomed to (I had previously used the 300 2.8 II, which uncropped was amazing).
> 
> As a retired person and just an amateur photographer what in the world is wrong with me not just being satisfied with what I've got?! Well, the problem is I tend towards being a perfectionist; nothing to do with showing off, I just love excellent results. Honestly, I can't afford this hobby but by cutting out other likes, I do, and I really enjoy it.
> 
> ...



Firstly, I loved your post. Just good, honest assessment and discussion.

Question: Have you used Canon mirrorless yet? I wonder if you do better waiting for the next R announcement?

I was a slow-mover from 5D series to R-mount mirrorless. I wanted nothing to do with mirrorless (for no particular reason except I was used to D-SLR). Well I can't express in words how much better for me mirrorless has been. Of course the type of photography I do lends itself to mirrorless, but full-time dual-pixel autofocus through the viewfinder, eye-detect AF with wide-open apertures at tiny DoF, viewing images 10x magnification through the viewfinder (vs LCD), focus peaking in manual focus through the EVF with your color choice, they have all been game changing for me. Different strokes for different folks. The 1Dx3 looks *awesome*. I wouldn't hesitate to get it. I'm just mentioning mirrorless because you seem to like more cutting edge, and I can tell you first hand the R-mount would give you something to really be excited about.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 9, 2020)

Having said I won't buy, it's the AF that keeps catching my attention. https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-1d-x-mark-iii/autofocus/ I have spent many hours trying to catch small birds in great action poses and in spite of fiddling with the case settings never got what I would describe as true auto focus that could catch scenes like the one I'm posting. If that's possible now ... oh dear ... lets see, how can I scare up the cash.






Travel_Photographer said:


> Firstly, I loved your post. Just good, honest assessment and discussion.
> 
> Question: Have you used Canon mirrorless yet? I wonder if you do better waiting for the next R announcement?
> 
> I was a slow-mover from 5D series to R-mount mirrorless. I wanted nothing to do with mirrorless (for no particular reason except I was used to D-SLR). Well I can't express in words how much better for me mirrorless has been. Of course the type of photography I do lends itself to mirrorless, but full-time dual-pixel autofocus through the viewfinder, eye-detect AF with wide-open apertures at tiny DoF, viewing images 10x magnification through the viewfinder (vs LCD), focus peaking in manual focus through the EVF with your color choice, they have all been game changing for me. Different strokes for different folks. The 1Dx3 looks *awesome*. I wouldn't hesitate to get it. I'm just mentioning mirrorless because you seem to like more cutting edge, and I can tell you first hand the R-mount would give you something to really be excited about.



I bought the R and quickly convinced my daughter it was perfect for her. Having filter capability with the R and 11-24 was a big deal so yes I'm thinking R but it would have to be 1 level or I'll just never quit griping. The video on the R was so poor compared to the 1DX2, especially the jello. You have to shoot 1 level to appreciate the finer points it offers. I remain conflicted.

BTW, I believe the shots I posted were 14 FPS in case someone is inclined to think 5 FPS would do the job. Is it just too much to expect a bird to be focused in this scenario? I think the only way is deep learning with bird photos.

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 9, 2020)

I have yet to determine if the OVF has deep learning associated with its AF - I believe it does not relative to human eye and head but does it have any, given that there is a dedicated processor?

Jack


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## privatebydesign (Jan 9, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> I have yet to determine if the OVF has deep learning associated with its AF - I believe it does not relative to human eye and head but does it have any, given that there is a dedicated processor?
> 
> Jack


No. The deep learning is learnt and burnt in. It doesn’t learn anything new but has enough stored data to estimate the true subject and maintain the af on what it has already been told is probably the subject. But this is only in full area mode, you can use the camera as a MkII in the other af modes and bypass the ‘learning’ which truly is a misnomer.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 9, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No. The deep learning is learnt and burnt in. It doesn’t learn anything new but has enough stored data to estimate the true subject and maintain the af on what it has already been told is probably the subject. But this is only in full area mode, you can use the camera as a MkII in the other af modes and bypass the ‘learning’ which truly is a misnomer.



But are there pre-learned (baked) algorithms that contribute to the AF action using the *optical viewfinder*, at all? Would that necessarily require live view to implement??

Jack


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## privatebydesign (Jan 9, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> But are there pre-learned (baked) algorithms that contribute to the AF action using the *optical viewfinder*, at all? Would that necessarily require live view to implement??
> 
> Jack


Yes. And the ‘deep learning’ thing only works with the OVF and only when you are using area select. They have a dedicated sensor that is trying to guess what the subject should be from its ‘learnt’ programming, I did see/hear a suggestion that that library previously learnt could be expanded or adjusted in firmware upgrades.

Edit: Head and face detect work both through the OVF and during Live View shooting, eye detect only works during Live View.

as per the White Paper.

3. Accordingly, Face Detect AF, Eye Detect AF and Head Detect AF are all active when Subject Tracking Settings > AF Priority (People) is enabled during Live View.


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## ahsanford (Jan 9, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Yes. And the ‘deep learning’ thing only works with the OVF and only when you are using area select. They have a dedicated sensor that is trying to guess what the subject should be from its ‘learnt’ programming, I did see/hear a suggestion that that library previously learnt could be expanded or adjusted in firmware upgrades.




Cool. I await the Juvenile Labrador deep learning preset, which -- if properly conceived -- will focus like a cotton-candy-fueled 6 year old playing whack-a-mole.

- A


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## bhf3737 (Jan 9, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> Yes. And the ‘deep learning’ thing only works with the OVF and only when you are using area select. They have a dedicated sensor that is trying to guess what the subject should be from its ‘learnt’ programming, I did see/hear a suggestion that that library previously learnt could be expanded or adjusted in firmware upgrades.


Yes, that is true. It is possible to improve the learnt model and upload it via firmware. However, the way deep learning works is that each model learns one subject for max accuracy (e.g. a binary decision between face and not-face). The same model cannot be trained to learn face and bird and dog without compromising the accuracy. It seems that iDXIII has a trained model for human face and Sony has one for animal eye. It is very probable that we will see the camera having selectable modes added to it for face, bird, dog, insect, ball, etc., based on deep learning.


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## privatebydesign (Jan 9, 2020)

bhf3737 said:


> Yes, that is true. It is possible to improve the learnt model and upload it via firmware. However, the way deep learning works is that each model learns one subject for max accuracy (e.g. a binary decision between face and not-face). The same model cannot be trained to learn face and bird and dog without compromising the accuracy. It seems that iDXIII has a trained model for human face and Sony has one for animal eye. It is very probable that we will see the camera having selectable modes added to it for face, bird, dog, insect, ball, etc., based on deep learning.


I think you will find the 1D X III learning has been tuned for the human head, as distinct from the human face. As I understand it this is to allow for the fast twisting and turning of the head in some sports and it allows for helmets, that is it still recognizes a helmeted head as the subject.

Maybe wildlife shooters will be able to buy firmware add-ons for specific animals!


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## Joules (Jan 9, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> But are there pre-learned (baked) algorithms that contribute to the AF action using the *optical viewfinder*, at all? Would that necessarily require live view to implement??
> 
> Jack


I think you guys are talking about multiple things here. There are definitely elements of machine learning used in multiple ways for AF. There also is a capability to tune AF cases in the viewfinder. Regarding the former, the white paper has this to say, for example:

"Head Detect AF is supported by “deep learning.” Canon engineers have established a
database of thousands of images of heads in varying types of positions, including turned
away from the camera, and even wearing various types of sports helmets. Deep learning
has been applied to the AF system (within the DIGIC X processor) to leverage this info for
immediate recognition of human subjects, when traditional Face Detect AF cannot read
sufficient information to confirm a subject.
Interestingly, this transition from Face Detect AF to Head Detect AF leverages both the
DIGIC 8 processor (normally the primary source of AF tracking control) and the more
powerful, central DIGIC X processor. DIGIC X is the source of Head Detect AF data, and its
deep learning support library — but the transition from Face Detect AF to Head Detect AF
is extremely smooth, even in the middle of a 16 fps shooting sequence.

[...]

The concepts explained here apply to Live View shooting, at up to 20 fps, as well as
shooting through the viewfinder. The text above specifically addresses viewfinder
shooting."

There is face recognition and tracking and the new head recognition and tracking for OVF and LiveView operation. Additionally, LiveView also allows for Eye AF. The focus here is emphasized to be on human features at this point in time.

The viewfinder AF works closer to how LiveView operates now, if you compare the previous (right) and new (left) AF 'point' arrays the old one looks almost primitive:




Calling it an upgrade from around 60 to around 190 points does not truly do it justice. That's just what the user has available, but there is a ton more data that the camera can work with now.



bhf3737 said:


> However, the way deep learning works is that each model learns one subject for max accuracy (e.g. a binary decision between face and not-face). The same model cannot be trained to learn face and bird and dog without compromising the accuracy.


Could you please elaborate on what you mean here? Neural Networks can be used for classification problems even if there are more than two cases in the output, so I'm not sure what you mean here.


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## Joules (Jan 9, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> The 20mp number was set by the limitation of video raw readout, they could do 5.4k, they couldn’t do 5.9k so 20mp it was! The mp count of the 1DX iii was set by a video performance limitation.


I doubt that. Canon have demonstrated time and time again that they have 0 issues delivering movie crop modes. If 5496 * 2904 12-bit 60 Hz is the max data rate the 1DX III can handle (on an interesting side note, this is over twice the throughput the camera offers with its 20MP 14bit 20 Hz LiveView shooting), I believe Canon could have simply offered it with a minute crop on a 24 MP sensor.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 9, 2020)

Joules said:


> I think you guys are talking about multiple things here. There are definitely elements of machine learning used in multiple ways for AF. There also is a capability to tune AF cases in the viewfinder. Regarding the former, the white paper has this to say, for example:
> 
> "Head Detect AF is supported by “deep learning.” Canon engineers have established a
> database of thousands of images of heads in varying types of positions, including turned
> ...



Thanks. If possible, can you provide links where you've learned that both optical viewfinder and liveview use deep learning algorithms and precisely how they differ. This is extremely intriguing for bird photographers give most birds share similarities and the algorithms should be able to be pretty good. 

Jack


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## Joules (Jan 9, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Thanks. If possible, can you provide links where you've learned that both optical viewfinder and liveview use deep learning algorithms and precisely how they differ.


I quoted one of the white papers, which I have read about half way. You can check them out at the Canon site, here's the CR post about it:









Canon EOS-1D X Mark III technical white papers released


Canon has released two separate technical white papers for the Canon EOS-1D X Mark III, one is for stills photography and the other is for its video technology.



www.canonrumors.com





I don’t think there is much focus on anything beyond humans at this point. From the same paper:

"In both viewfinder and Live View shooting, AF Priority (People) means exactly that… 
Canon makes no claims that the EOS-1D X Mark III can recognize and focus upon 
faces of animals or other non-human subjects."

I believe they have the ability to add that over time, but given the greater amount of detail they gave available with LiveView, I believe we'll see such recognition technology first in an RF mount camera. The 1DX III OVF already doesn't allow for human eye AF... I can't imagine how they would pull off focusing on something even smaller, more remote and varied like a bird's eye.


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## dcm (Jan 9, 2020)

I have the 1DX II (30K shutter count) and a fair amount of L glass. Figured I'd be skipping the 1DX III as a small incremental improvement. It won't be as monumental as my 6D to 1DX II transition, but there is some aspects that interest me. I'm still waiting to see what the next high MP body has to offer.

The goal would be the same - "Give me more usable images". This actually has two interpretations.: quantitatively "Give me MORE usable images." and qualitatively "Give me more USABLE images." As a product owner in industry, these are the kinds of customer directions I passed onto my teams from our discussions with customers and let them figure out how to best achieve it. This is a real customer need from my perspective. We don't let the customers dictate how we are going to achieve that. We often did things they never expected. This was how innovation occurs, not tweaking the spec sheet to match the competitors (which is all the customer and marketing will often tell you). The 1DX III has some expected improvements to address the goal and a few surprises*, in no particular order. 

Quantitative

small FPS improvement (improved mirror and shutter)
increased buffer depth*
built-in networking*
faster networking
improved battery life*
increased mirror/shutter reliability (500K)

Qualitative

AF accuracy (cross type points)
AF tracking (eye, head*, etc.)
new low pass filter (sharpness)*
better DR
more usable ISO range
GPS*
HEIC* (like it on my iphone 11 Pro, LR handles it nicely, no more JPGs)
Clarity*
I probably missed a few things, but these caught my eye. All in all, its a bit more interesting than I thought it would be and worthy of some consideration. I can live without them, but I'm willing to wait a while to see how some of these pan out. They may only result in small improvements. But more keepers means less wasted time on my part and less postprocessing. I'm particularly interested to see if OOC HEICs are more usable the JPGs such that I can change my workflow to review HEICs/crop for many uses and reduce the need to post process the raws. Too bad the M6 II didn't include HEIC. Wonder if they could do it with a firmware update


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## koenkooi (Jan 9, 2020)

Joules said:


> I doubt that. Canon have demonstrated time and time again that they have 0 issues delivering movie crop modes. If 5496 * 2904 12-bit 60 Hz is the max data rate the 1DX III can handle (on an interesting side note, this is over twice the throughput the camera offers with its 20MP 14bit 20 Hz LiveView shooting), I believe Canon could have simply offered it with a minute crop on a 24 MP sensor.



The 20MP/20FPS does AF in between captures, so I think it's more like 20MP/40FPS throughput.


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## koenkooi (Jan 9, 2020)

dcm said:


> [..]Too bad the M6 II didn't include HEIC. Wonder if they could do it with a firmware update



The JPEG engine in the Digic is hardware, so I suspect the HEIC one is as well, so I don't have high hopes for a firmware update adding it. But an M with the M6II sensor and a Digic X does become interesting. Especially in an Mx00 formfactor


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## tpatana (Jan 9, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> I think you will find the 1D X III learning has been tuned for the human head, as distinct from the human face. As I understand it this is to allow for the fast twisting and turning of the head in some sports and it allows for helmets, that is it still recognizes a helmeted head as the subject.
> 
> Maybe wildlife shooters will be able to buy firmware add-ons for specific animals!



I wish the deep learning could be taught, since my sports everybody wear funny outfits they are not recognized as human...


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## Kit. (Jan 9, 2020)

bhf3737 said:


> Yes, that is true. It is possible to improve the learnt model and upload it via firmware. However, the way deep learning works is that each model learns one subject for max accuracy (e.g. a binary decision between face and not-face). The same model cannot be trained to learn face and bird and dog without compromising the accuracy.


Actually, co-training of a neural network for multiple goals (outputs) usually improves its generalization abilities, reduces overfitting on the training set and improves the network's accuracy during real-world use.

At least as believed by the industry right now.


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## reef58 (Jan 9, 2020)

Hector1970 said:


> Hard to get a real sense from all the comments if contributors here are super excited at the 1DX III that's been produced or whether its more of a damp squid.
> It overall just doesn't seemed to be designed for serious amateur photographers.
> 
> 'why 20 million pixels'
> ...



I am pretty excited. This camera is a powerhouse and I am buying one. If it had 30mp I would be sleeping in a tent in front of Canon trying to be first in line to get it. As it is I am preordering from the comfort of my office via the internet.


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## Travel_Photographer (Jan 9, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> Having said I won't buy, it's the AF that keeps catching my attention. https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-1d-x-mark-iii/autofocus/ I have spent many hours trying to catch small birds in great action poses and in spite of fiddling with the case settings never got what I would describe as true auto focus that could catch scenes like the one I'm posting. If that's possible now ... oh dear ... lets see, how can I scare up the cash.
> View attachment 188139
> View attachment 188140
> View attachment 188141
> ...



Right, what I'm suggesting, since autofocus seems to be one of your primary considerations, is that you wait for the pro-level R mount camera that many people are expecting to be announced (hopefully) sometime soon.

The 1-series is excellent for those that need an optical viewfinder for fast moving subjects where EVF lag might post a problem, for top build quality and weatherproofing, high FPS, etc. That said, it is my opinion (any many others) that dual-pixel autofocus on the sensor is far superior to the focus mechanism used when shooting through an optical viewfinder. That's in large part why so many are so highly anticipating a pro-level R.

Regarding your hummingbird, I'm not sure what high FPS has to do with your focus issues. You're correct in that those aren't particularly in focus, but high FPS is not your issue. What shutter speed are using? Yes, I know the hummingbird's wings flap really fast, I'm not suggesting that you used a slow shutterspeed because the wings are blurry, it just seems the whole images are fairly blurry so I'm thinking maybe an even faster shutter speed might have helped? And perhaps the aperture was too wide and you moved backward or forward at the time you pressed the shutter? Were you in Servo mode? If you weren't in servo and you moved even a fraction of an inch after autofocusing, the whole image would be blurry.

Either way, obviously people, including me, have been successfully focusing on and getting tack-sharp images of hummingbirds and other fast-moving birds before these "deep learning algorithms" came around. No algorithm is going to make up for incorrect camera settings to begin with (I'm not suggesting you used incorrect settings, just making a general statement). I have no idea why those hummingbirds are out of focus, but I can assure you it's not a limitation of the camera. Personally, I think you'd love a pro-level R mount.


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 9, 2020)

Travel_Photographer said:


> Right, what I'm suggesting, since autofocus seems to be one of your primary considerations, is that you wait for the pro-level R mount camera that many people are expecting to be announced (hopefully) sometime soon.
> 
> The 1-series is excellent for those that need an optical viewfinder for fast moving subjects where EVF lag might post a problem, for top build quality and weatherproofing, high FPS, etc. That said, it is my opinion (any many others) that dual-pixel autofocus on the sensor is far superior to the focus mechanism used when shooting through an optical viewfinder. That's in large part why so many are so highly anticipating a pro-level R.
> 
> ...



This was just a sequence that popped up as I searched quickly for something to illustrate. I am fully aware of the human problem (me) but less aware of how to solve it - the teach old dogs (me) new tricks issue.  Your points are all valid. 

Shooting hummingbirds in Costa Rica was one of the easiest tasks as far as getting the birds in focus and I'm not talking feeders, unless you consider flowers to be feeders, but having a frame that would keep them in focus as they dart around would be amazing with the high FPS. Here is another example of where fast AF could be helpful and where high FPS also is very helpful as far as pose is concerned. It doesn't help to often be shooting 400 X2 and with poor lighting, and that's the dilemma, there are always trade-offs. 

Jack


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## bhf3737 (Jan 9, 2020)

Joules said:


> Could you please elaborate on what you mean here? Neural Networks can be used for classification problems even if there are more than two cases in the output, so I'm not sure what you mean here.


I think you train a neural net model with positive examples (e.g. human head) and negative examples (e.g. cat, dog, flower, cloud, etc.) of roughly equal set size, say 100k pictures in each set, and then when using the trained model in the camera, when seeing a scene it can decide whether it is a human head or not (binary decision) with high accuracy. Of course it is possible to train a model for more objects using the same principle.


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## Travel_Photographer (Jan 9, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> This was just a sequence that popped up as I searched quickly for something to illustrate. I am fully aware of the human problem (me) but less aware of how to solve it - the teach old dogs (me) new tricks issue.  Your points are all valid.
> 
> Shooting hummingbirds in Costa Rica was one of the easiest tasks as far as getting the birds in focus and I'm not talking feeders, unless you consider flowers to be feeders, but having a frame that would keep them in focus as they dart around would be amazing with the high FPS. Here is another example of where fast AF could be helpful and where high FPS also is very helpful as far as pose is concerned. It doesn't help to often be shooting 400 X2 and with poor lighting, and that's the dilemma, there are always trade-offs.
> 
> ...



Beautiful photo. Really spectacular!

Yep, understood. I was just tossing another alternative into the mix with mirrorless, since you were seeking some input. I was in the same boat regarding AF challenges as I was trying to figure out the best way to focus on the wildest creature of them all: Toddlerus Runnerus (Common Name: Running Toddler). I tried an RP and was pleasantly shocked at how effortlessly and intuitively it focuses. While looking through the EVF, I use my thumb on the touchscreen to move the AF box over whatever moving subject I'm trying to focus on, and that's it. It uses over 4000 AF points on the sensor to instantly track the subject wheverever it moves over almost the entire frame. Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you, just sharing my own experiences! If a pro R body comes out with high FPS and weather sealing, I will likely snap it up in a second.


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## StoicalEtcher (Jan 9, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> I was torn between going for higher resolution via 5D4 or 1 level camera via 1DX2. It went on for weeks and finally my wife nudged me over the edge - she sees 1D as "the best". Essentially it was a coin toss. To compensate for no bump in MPs (sold the 6D) I bought the 400 DO II, really over-spending and rationalized that 400 X2 based on reputable comments would be very satisfactory. Truth is, 800 did put me within reach for a lot of birding situations but as more samples of the results of high MP shots passed by me I came to realize that my cropping capabilities were now more limited if I wished to maintain the detail and sharpness I was accustomed to (I had previously used the 300 2.8 II, which uncropped was amazing).
> 
> As a retired person and just an amateur photographer what in the world is wrong with me not just being satisfied with what I've got?! Well, the problem is I tend towards being a perfectionist; nothing to do with showing off, I just love excellent results. Honestly, I can't afford this hobby but by cutting out other likes, I do, and I really enjoy it.
> 
> ...


Is one option to keep what you have, and spend the difference between trading in your 1DX II and purchasing a 1DX III ($3-4k) instead on the forthcoming high MP R? - that way you have the best of both worlds? (albeit, spread over two cameras!)


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## Joules (Jan 9, 2020)

bhf3737 said:


> I think you train a neural net model with positive examples (e.g. human head) and negative examples (e.g. cat, dog, flower, cloud, etc.) of roughly equal set size, say 100k pictures in each set, and then when using the trained model in the camera, when seeing a scene it can decide whether it is a human head or not (binary decision) with high accuracy.


There are a lot of different neural network architectures and they all have their own ways of working. But you are definitely not constrained to a binary decision. Neural networks are just functions, you apply them to an input and get an output. The output can be of any dimension though, it doesn't have to be a two dimensional "Yes" or "No" output. With your example, you can have an output with 4 numbers, where the highest one can be interpreted as the recognised result. So if your first number is for cat, second for dog, third for flower and fourth for cloud, and your numbers are 0.2 0.98 0.1 and 0.0 you should interpret that as "Your input corresponds to a dog".


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## Mikehit (Jan 10, 2020)

Jack Douglas said:


> I was torn between going for higher resolution via 5D4 or 1 level camera via 1DX2. It went on for weeks and finally my wife nudged me over the edge - she sees 1D as "the best". Essentially it was a coin toss. To compensate for no bump in MPs (sold the 6D) I bought the 400 DO II, really over-spending and rationalized that 400 X2 based on reputable comments would be very satisfactory. Truth is, 800 did put me within reach for a lot of birding situations but as more samples of the results of high MP shots passed by me I came to realize that my cropping capabilities were now more limited if I wished to maintain the detail and sharpness I was accustomed to (I had previously used the 300 2.8 II, which uncropped was amazing).
> 
> As a retired person and just an amateur photographer what in the world is wrong with me not just being satisfied with what I've got?! Well, the problem is I tend towards being a perfectionist; nothing to do with showing off, I just love excellent results. Honestly, I can't afford this hobby but by cutting out other likes, I do, and I really enjoy it.
> 
> ...



I'm with you every step of the way, there Jack. The main reason I bought the 1Dx2 was that the 7D2 AF can be a bit twitchy and because most of my good wildlife shots are taken in morning or late afternoon the 7D2 is often pushing it, especially for BIF. I have also found that the 7D2 starts to struggle with the 2x converter on the 400DOii, which means that for BIF 7D2+400+1.4x has about the same sort of reach as 1Dx2+400+2x. 

Also, largely because of the cropping, I have learned that I don't need to have frame-filling images every time (which has actually benefitted my composition and editing). Having said all that, I do find the sheer quality of pixels on the 1Dx2 means even with the same lens on both cameras I can crop almost to the same FOV as the 7D2 with very little loss in picture quality. 
BUT....give me a 5DIV with a bit extra battery oomph and 8-10 fps and I would be well happy. 

Why oh, why do I like the challenge of BIF so much. Why can't I just be happy with a bird on a stick?


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## Mikehit (Jan 10, 2020)

privatebydesign said:


> No. The deep learning is learnt and burnt in. It doesn’t learn anything new but has enough stored data to estimate the true subject and maintain the af on what it has already been told is probably the subject. But this is only in full area mode, you can use the camera as a MkII in the other af modes and bypass the ‘learning’ which truly is a misnomer.



If that is the case, if it is baked in, then as you say it is not 'learning' - it is simply using a more detailed algorithm which would mean that Canon is using modern buzzwords to sell it stull (like 'nano' was few years ago, and not is it 'i-whatever').
When the Olympus E-M1X came out, there was talk that it actually 'learnt' the photographer's preferred subjects. So with a basic algorithm, it knows what a head looks like but if the head was turned sideways it initially would miss it. But gradually over time it would see a head turned a bit, then turned more, then turned more and as the photographer shot more and more heads it would 'learn'. Similarly for cars etc. I don't know how true any of that is, but it strikes me as a method with more potential for tracking the subject across the frame or in front of complex backgrounds.


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## unfocused (Jan 10, 2020)

Mikehit said:


> If that is the case, if it is baked in, then as you say it is not 'learning' - it is simply using a more detailed algorithm which would mean that Canon is using modern buzzwords to sell it stull (like 'nano' was few years ago, and not is it 'i-whatever')...



Always helps to go to the source. Canon White Paper:



> Head Detect AF is supported by “deep learning.” Canon engineers have established a database of thousands of images of heads in varying types of positions, including turned away from the camera, and even wearing various types of sports helmets. Deep learning has been applied to the AF system (within the DIGIC X processor) to leverage this info for immediate recognition of human subjects, when traditional Face Detect AF cannot read sufficient information to confirm a subject.
> 
> Interestingly, this transition from Face Detect AF to Head Detect AF leverages both the DIGIC 8 processor (normally the primary source of AF tracking control) and the more powerful, central DIGIC X processor. DIGIC X is the source of Head Detect AF data, and its deep learning support library — but the transition from Face Detect AF to Head Detect AF is extremely smooth, even in the middle of a 16 fps shooting sequence.



This does make it possible that future firmware updates would add more details/information to the camera's "deep learning" database.


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## koenkooi (Jan 10, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Always helps to go to the source. Canon White Paper:
> [..]
> 
> 
> This does make it possible that future firmware updates would add more details/information to the camera's "deep learning" database.



Or make it possible to replace it with something else! So where's the place on the Canon website I can upload all my jumping spider pics to?


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 10, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Or make it possible to replace it with something else! So where's the place on the Canon website I can upload all my jumping spider pics to?



I somehow don't think Canon cares that much about you personally. 

Jack


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## Mikehit (Jan 10, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Always helps to go to the source. Canon White Paper:
> 
> 
> 
> This does make it possible that future firmware updates would add more details/information to the camera's "deep learning" database.


OK - so no learning involved. Just an updated reference database.


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## Russ6357 (Jan 11, 2020)

As always it’s not the buzzword tech that’s the important thing but the quality of implementation- how large and well labeled the data set, what model used and so forth.
As noted the output need not be Y:N but instead, for example, a series of probabilities, e.g.

(Is a focus target) (Is human) (Is bird) (Is dog) (Is cat)

0.98, 0.03, 0.11, 0.65, 0.89

which would relate to start focusing with an focus priority assuming Cat but it’s a bit dog like too...


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## arthurbikemad (Jan 11, 2020)

Pre Ordered...

What a sucker!


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## Jack Douglas (Jan 11, 2020)

arthurbikemad said:


> Pre Ordered...
> 
> What a sucker!



OK, since you called yourself a sucker, who am I to challenge that. 

If I were not financially constrained I wouldn't blink before ordering it. Knowing Canon and knowing Canon's history, there is not a shadow of doubt in my mind that the shortcomings of the Mark II have been largely dealt with and the camera will be a significant improvement in the areas that Canon has felt pressured to improve (AF was one of them) and where they were able to improve (speed was obviously a limiting factor and that's been drastically improved via CFexpress, Digic X etc.). 

I've always shook my head when people praised the joystick because it clearly was clumsy when speedy AF point movements were required; now the new AF-ON button appears to be a godsend. I also have no doubt that the AF capability of the latest Nikon and Sony top cameras has exceeded what we got with the Mark II, even considering that many users did not adjust the parameters as optimally as possible. I suspect that will no longer be the case, at least for the time being.

In the realm of video, those in the know are expressing overall satisfaction with the added capability and already the quality of the Mark II was generally praised except for file size. The dumb CF, CFast arrangement is gone and for those with deep pockets the new cards offer many advantages.

My concern, if I were to purchase, is in the realm of, I can only justify so much expenditure on a strictly luxury item when there are other needs and wants and I already have a very good camera. My "worry" is that there may be significant improvements relative to a 1 level offering in the R line and if that camera will be slightly smaller and significantly lighter then as an aging user I'll regret that my (probably) last camera is a beast.

I seldom express frustration with Canon's approach to making money but if I were to express one major gripe it would be that there needs to be two somewhat different 1 level cameras, one that maximizes speed and one that is still fast but optimizes resolution for those of us that invariably do more cropping. I don't get the logic of forcing those with resolution needs into a lower than 1 level feature set.

Jack


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## CDD28 (Jan 12, 2020)

How hard will it be to get your hands on one close to the 2/13 release date if you don't preorder? I haven't decided if I will even get one yet so I haven't preordered. I'm wondering if this will be like the 85 1.4 release -- waited about 2 months to actually receive it after ordering after the release date.


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