# T3 to 7D.....the right thing?



## pcdebb (Mar 5, 2015)

Hello fellow Canon photogs 

So I've been itching to upgrade to a new body. I've always been told when you upgrade, always get new glass. Right now I'm looking at possibly a good deal on a 7D, which is one of the models I've been looking at. Is this a worthwhile upgrade?

TIA


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## mrzero (Mar 5, 2015)

Hard to answer without knowing why you want to upgrade (i.e what features are most important to you), what you like to shoot, and what lenses you already have.

The 7D is a tough, heavy-duty camera. But it is older than the T3. You may also consider the 70D, which is newer and similarly specced, but a little more general-purpose. See here:
http://www.dpreview.com/products/compare/side-by-side?products=canon_eos1100d&products=canon_eos7d&products=canon_eos60d&products=canon_eos70d&sortDir=ascending


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## TeT (Mar 5, 2015)

I would go 70D over 7D. Similar price point and better noise light etc. on the 70D. not sure about AF performance though...


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## jdramirez (Mar 5, 2015)

Depends on what you shoot. If you want more resolution because you crop into your shots... if you want better auto focus performance, and you want more shots per second... go for it.

I upgraded bodies before glass, Xs to 60d, and I was happy with my decision. 

The going rate is $700ish for a good condition 7d body... So I hope you don't pay more than that.

If you do only portrait and landscape, I'm going to say don't do it because you won't see any of the benefits.


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## jdramirez (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm guessing he is buying one off of a friend/acquaintance... maybe who is upgrading to a 7d mkii or possibly to a 1dx
It is a guess... But I didn't get the feel the best buy is clearancing a floor model.


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## Twostones (Mar 5, 2015)

Moving up to a 7D from a T3 is certainly an upgrade. A few things you will notice right away is the penta prism view finder on the 7D is larger and brighter than the smaller penta mirror viewfinder on the T3. It is also a 100 % view of the frame. The 7D also has 19 all cross type focus points. The body on the 7D is also larger and solid as a rock. At the prices the new 7D is going for it is a bargain for sure. You will be very happy with the bang you get for your buck. If you want better video get the smaller 70D for about the same money. I have had my 7D now for four years and still enjoy it.


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## AlanF (Mar 5, 2015)

TeT said:


> I would go 70D over 7D. Similar price point and better noise light etc. on the 70D. not sure about AF performance though...



AF is more reliable on the 70D. Consistency of AF was one of the 7D's weak points, and it doesn't cope with some TC combinations.


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## heptagon (Mar 5, 2015)

pcdebb said:


> Hello fellow Canon photogs
> 
> So I've been itching to upgrade to a new body. I've always been told when you upgrade, always get new glass. Right now I'm looking at possibly a good deal on a 7D, which is one of the models I've been looking at. Is this a worthwhile upgrade?
> 
> TIA



Why would you want to carry around such a heavy and big camera? 

In what way is your current camera insufficient? 

What are you shooting?

Under what environmental conditions are you shooting (indoor/outdoor/rain)?

Depending on your situation the 7D may be right but more likely the 70D will suit you better but maybe you need the 7DII or even the 5DIII but it could be that the 6D provides the highest gain in image quality for the price but it could be too slow in which case maybe only the 1DX provides you with the speed. It all depends on your situation which you have told us nothing about so far (except that you're itching but that can be healed).


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## 9VIII (Mar 5, 2015)

I would only take the 7D over the 70D if I were going into a war-zone. Barring resistance to shrapnel the 70D will be the better option, and for the same price if you get some of the deals on E-bay.

I'm in the same situation and right now I'm waiting for the SL2, if it has the same sensor and AF as the T6i then it will be almost perfect for me.
The only caveat being if the new sensor has bad ISO performance then I'll go straight for the 7DII and never look back (I don't expect it to, but you never know).

On a side note, the T5 is brobably a good option too. It won't be an AF upgrade, but the sharpness off the last generation of 18MP sensors was good, and it uses the same batteries. I just wish they would sell them as a standalone body for $50 off.


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## jdramirez (Mar 5, 2015)

How about this... why don't you tell us what you shoot... how much money you have to upgrade your glass, and the price of the 7d... with the presumption that you will sell the t3.

Let's say you have a t3 and kit lens, & $400 & that's it. 

You sell the t3 for $250 giving you $650 total. Your buddy is selling you the 7d for a great deal at $500 leaving you with $150 for a 18-55 kit lens & maybe a 55-250, a 50mm f1.8, or a 40mm f2.8.

So we compare that to....
You keep the t3 and you can afford to buy a 50, 40, an older 35mm, an 85mm, a 55-250, or a 100mm f2.

For portraits... give me the t3 & an 85mm. For outdoor sports, give me the 7d & 55-250, for indoor sports, give me the t3 & the 85/100mm pairing.

So what I'm saying is that it depends. We just need more information than you have given.


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## jdramirez (Mar 5, 2015)

@ Christmas time I was selling the t5 bodies for around $325 or so. I would separate the 18-55, and I made a small profit doing so. They were new, so it isn't hard to find... you just have to look.



9VIII said:


> I would only take the 7D over the 70D if I were going into a war-zone. Barring resistance to shrapnel the 70D will be the better option, and for the same price if you get some of the deals on E-bay.
> 
> I'm in the same situation and right now I'm waiting for the SL2, if it has the same sensor and AF as the T6i then it will be almost perfect for me.
> The only caveat being if the new sensor has bad ISO performance then I'll go straight for the 7DII and never look back (I don't expect it to, but you never know).
> ...


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## bholliman (Mar 5, 2015)

The 7D is certainly an upgrade over a T3, but its getting kind of dated. As others suggested, I think the 70D would be a better upgrade for about the same cost.


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## ashmadux (Mar 5, 2015)

There is no reason to buy a 7d anymore. None. 

Buy a 70d, or at worst/just as good, wait a lil bit for the new rebels. You cant go wrong in that scenario. 7d is history, let it go softly into the night


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## jdramirez (Mar 5, 2015)

So here's a question for some people....

7d @ $650 >, <, or = 70d @ $800

And for the record, the 7d is still a fine camera and you can do a ton with it... hell, in the right hands you can do a ton with an xti. Old gear isn't bad gear. Mind you, I would not suggest he go from a t3 to an xti, but newer gear isn't necessarily head and shoulders better.


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## FTb-n (Mar 5, 2015)

pcdebb said:


> So I've been itching to upgrade to a new body. I've always been told when you upgrade, always get new glass.


If you're suggesting that a body upgrade warrants a glass upgrade, I would disagree. It all depends upon what you have and whether it's limitations are holding you back. 

The 7D is a great upgrade from the T3. If it's the right upgrade for you depends upon the price. If sports is a priority and the prices are close, consider the 70D. Even the T5i might be a better choice. A refurbished T5i body (from Canon) sells for $550. If the deal on the 7D is better than that, then take it. If not, then you have some thinking to do.


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## jdramirez (Mar 5, 2015)

FTb-n said:


> pcdebb said:
> 
> 
> > So I've been itching to upgrade to a new body. I've always been told when you upgrade, always get new glass.
> ...



That's interesting. I didn't read what he wrote the way he wrote it. I assumed he screwed up the saying, upgrade glass first, then upgrade your body. Huh... that changes the dynamic of what I think. 

I'm too analytical... I'm thinking in terms of math and there are to many variables that have yet to be defined.


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## hgraf (Mar 5, 2015)

jdramirez said:


> If you do only portrait and landscape, I'm going to say don't do it because you won't see any of the benefits.



I have to potentially disagree with portrait. The massively larger buffer on the 7D is a really important upgrade for shooting portraits of models that tend to move alot (i.e. babies/kids/pets). I'm ALWAYS hitting the limit on the buffer on my T4i in those situations (only 3-5 shots in RAW). 

Granted one can deal with this by shooting just JPEG, which I do sometimes...


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## jdramirez (Mar 5, 2015)

hgraf said:


> jdramirez said:
> 
> 
> > If you do only portrait and landscape, I'm going to say don't do it because you won't see any of the benefits.
> ...



I think I may agree with you on that. I'm trying to think about when I made the transition to full raw... and it might have been after... or at the tail end of having my 60D... Either way... I didn't really notice... but that is a good point.


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## pcdebb (Mar 6, 2015)

I'm glad I came here for advice. It was hard for me to tell which was newer/better. I had also looked at the 70d. That 7d is a beast (didn't realize it was older), noticed right away how heavy that thing is! One huge drawback is having to find a CF memory card. They are expensive and hard to find it seems  I do like that it has more AF points. The 70d sounds better in terms of AF reliability. Altho I'm relying more on manual focus and getting better images because of it, sometimes I need AF to be spot on.

As far as what i shoot, I like birds and landscape. I do casual candids of family, but i'm more into the outdoors. My T3 is wonderful, but i feel like I need something better when it comes to resolution since it's only 12mp. And this is probably where I need the real lesson to be taught to me. My "other camera" was 24mp and it seemed that my pics were so much clearer because of resolution, or is there a mind game im losing here lol

The 7d was going for around $600. I'm reading alot of options here in the thread, so I may just hold off and see what's a good fit for me. All of your input is valuable, and I thank you all very much!

Oh and btw, i'm a she


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## jdramirez (Mar 6, 2015)

pcdebb said:


> I'm glad I came here for advice. It was hard for me to tell which was newer/better. I had also looked at the 70d. That 7d is a beast (didn't realize it was older), noticed right away how heavy that thing is! One huge drawback is having to find a CF memory card. They are expensive and hard to find it seems  I do like that it has more AF points. The 70d sounds better in terms of AF reliability. Altho I'm relying more on manual focus and getting better images because of it, sometimes I need AF to be spot on.
> 
> As far as what i shoot, I like birds and landscape. I do casual candids of family, but i'm more into the outdoors. My T3 is wonderful, but i feel like I need something better when it comes to resolution since it's only 12mp. And this is probably where I need the real lesson to be taught to me. My "other camera" was 24mp and it seemed that my pics were so much clearer because of resolution, or is there a mind game im losing here lol
> 
> ...



A few small things. CF is more expensive, but it is also faster. The write speeds for my CF card is something like 150 mb/s... but I think (because the Canon bodies don't take advantage of the UHS write speeds) the write speeds for SD are around 30 mb/s. So if you are taking pictures of birds in flight... and you are taking one and another after another... your buffer will clear faster with CF than SD (provided you are shooting in raw). If you are shooting in .jpg... it probably won't matter. 

If you are shooting with manual focus... it sounds like you are taking photos of birds @ rest... so in that case... it won't really matter. And if AF isn't a key issue... you might want to consider one of the 18mp line... the sl1 is nice and small... my daughter had one... and for long hikes... it doesn't weigh you down a ton. Ditto with the t5, and the other 10 cameras that all use the 18mp sensor. 

As for megapixels... they do help... but there are several things that go into image quality, from low light performance (and controlling grain), to color fidelity, to contrast and that dreaded dynamic range... So a 24mp with a built in lens can do well in good lighting conditions... but I can work miracles using an 8mp camera and beautiful lighting (and of course a super expensive lens). 

Good luck... hope you figure it out. One small thing... and I'm making assumptions again... but if your 24mp camera was a point and shoot... and the shots used flash, that might be something you haven't considered. Adding more light to your subject. Might not make a difference with a bird at 80 ft away... but a portrait and seeing more of the detail... that could be the cause.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 6, 2015)

pcdebb said:


> The 7d was going for around $600. I'm reading alot of options here in the thread, so I may just hold off and see what's a good fit for me. All of your input is valuable, and I thank you all very much!



That's a great price, if you want an even cheaper good camera look at the very nice 60d (sd cards, swivel screen, a bit smaller/lighter).

The 7d1 has the oldest incarnation of Canon's long-running 18mp crop sensor which can result in visible banding when raising shadows, it's bit better on 60d, it depends on how heavy your post-processing is. The good thing about the 7d1 is this is the cheapest Canon body that is designed for tracking moving objects like birds in flight.



pcdebb said:


> Oh and btw, i'm a she



Oh my, what are *you* doing on a tech nerd internet forum then  ?


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## FTb-n (Mar 6, 2015)

Marsu42 said:


> pcdebb said:
> 
> 
> > The 7d was going for around $600. I'm reading alot of options here in the thread, so I may just hold off and see what's a good fit for me. All of your input is valuable, and I thank you all very much!
> ...


60D is another fine choice. I have both the 7D and the 60D. Even though I have upgraded to the 5D3, I've kept these crop bodies mostly for my wife and kids to use. But, I still grab the 7D once in a while. Lately, I've been using it with the 35 f2.0 IS. But, I digress.

A few notes. If you are having trouble with the AF, then it might be the mode. Are you using single-point focusing? The 7D is a better option with 19 focus points and it locks on quite well with it's "single point expansion". Assuming limited action, you shouldn't have any problem locking on focus with the right AF mode with either camera.

The 7D will come into it's own with action shots. It has a processor dedicated to the focus system and two Digic process to speed up the processing of the images. The buffer may not be bigger, but the camera is much faster at grabbing an image and moving it to the card. Because of its superior tracking, my in-focus keeper rate went up when I upgraded from the 60D to the 7D.

I use 32G Transcend 400x and 800x cards. They sell for $30-36 on Amazon. They were closer to $60 when I first ordered mine. These have been quite reliable and I don't see a difference between the two speeds.

Buffer can certainly be a concern with the Rebels. For the most part, it shouldn't be an issue with the 60D and 70D, unless spray and pray is your shooting style. 

I've stopped shooting JPG and shoot nothing but RAW. The RAW burst mode on the 60D, 70D, and 5D3 are quite similar -- in the 15-18 range. I shoot mostly action with the 5D3 (around 40K images annually) and rarely have to wait for the buffer. I do lean heavily on timing to get the shot and not on burst. The 7D can shoot about 24 images in RAW before buffer delays. 

For what it's worth, if I grab a crop body, I still prefer my 7D over my 60D. I also like its heavier build. So, if it's a choice between these two bodies and pricing is close, I'd recommend the 7D.

Lastly, the new breed of sensor in 70D has about a "stop" advantage over the 7D/60D in noise when shooting JPGs. This is because the 70D's DIGIC 5+ chip better at converting RAW images to JPGs. But, if you shoot RAW, this is a moot point. The "noise" advantage of the 70D isn't as great when comparing RAW images.


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## pcdebb (Mar 6, 2015)

Thinking about it more, the weight of the camera could be a drawback. Even with my previous Nikons, they were lighter, and when I'm out and about it could be an issue. I'd hate to miss a shot because I put the camera down to rest. I've never held a 60d, so I'd have to see if I can check one out. I never even considered the T5i or even the SL1, but right now the 70d is still in the lead 

Marsu42, I've been a nerd for many moons


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## greger (Mar 6, 2015)

MY wife loves her 70D. I am getting better at using my 7D that I might be ready for an upgrade. I haven't used the 
70D but enjoy the results my wife gets with the 70D. I don't know which camera is better at action and BIF but feel in
The long run you would be happier with the 70D. I think you said you were more interested in Landscape and Portrait.
The weight of the 7D and my 100-400 zoom can get a bit heavy feeling after awhile. The 70D and 70-200 lens is no
Bother but the last time we went out she used her 18-135 IS STM lens that came with her camera. The touch zoom
When looking at pics on the 70D is a feature I want. Good Luck in making your choice. Come back and let us know
What you purchased and how it's working out. I know a guy who bought the 70D and 100-400 Zoom when the 70D
First came out. I have yet to see a pic using AI Servo, but birds flying high in the sky are sharp and blur free. The swivel screen on the 70D is very useful for pics at weird angles.


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## Valvebounce (Mar 6, 2015)

Hi pcdebb. 
Anyone worried about camera body weight better get good at stalking their wildlife shots, long glass weighs more than most bodies, 1Dx might outweigh some of the shorter tele lenses. The difference in body weight in the range you are looking seems fairly insignificant to me, get a decent strap that gets the camera off your neck and you won't really notice weight. 
Buying the ergonomics that fit your hands best is to me more important than the weight, yes the 7D is a bit heavier than the other cameras but if it fits you get it if it feels wrong in the hand DON'T, you will not enjoy using it so your phone will get more use! 
I have large hands, and a rebel range camera is too small to hold comfortably, I have to rest from holding small light cameras but I can hold my 7D for much longer 2-3x longer before strain despite the weight. 
I think I would order my selection priorities image quality, ergonomics, weight to select from within budget bodies. 

Cheers, Graham. 



pcdebb said:


> Thinking about it more, the weight of the camera could be a drawback. Even with my previous Nikons, they were lighter, and when I'm out and about it could be an issue. I'd hate to miss a shot because I put the camera down to rest. I've never held a 60d, so I'd have to see if I can check one out. I never even considered the T5i or even the SL1, but right now the 70d is still in the lead
> 
> Marsu42, I've been a nerd for many moons


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## FTb-n (Mar 6, 2015)

pcdebb said:


> Thinking about it more, the weight of the camera could be a drawback. Even with my previous Nikons, they were lighter, and when I'm out and about it could be an issue. I'd hate to miss a shot because I put the camera down to rest. I've never held a 60d, so I'd have to see if I can check one out. I never even considered the T5i or even the SL1, but right now the 70d is still in the lead
> 
> Marsu42, I've been a nerd for many moons


My most used camera is a 5D3 with the 70-200 f2.8L IS II. Together, they weigh about 5 pounds. I like my 60D, but sometimes it feels too light. But, this is just me.

If the 70D is in lead and in your price range, don't look back. I think you will be happier with it than any of the other Rebels or the almost discontinued models (like the 7D and 60D). The road up from a 70D is the 7D2 or the 6D. Of these, I'd opt for the 6D. Despite being full frame, it weighs about the same as the 60D/70D.

The 7D2 is best for action. The 6D is best for image quality and low light performance. Full frame is a huge upgrade over crop. But, if the price of these bodies is out of your range, then the 70D stands out as you next camera.


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## Act444 (Mar 6, 2015)

The 7D is a fine camera. Used one to shoot ice shows for a couple years. I utilize both the 5D3 (full frame) and 7D2 now. 

I think for what you are describing, I think either a 60D or 70D would be a solid upgrade over what you are currently using. Unlike the above poster, I would not consider a 6D - while the image quality and low light performance are definitely better, there are trade offs - it's more expensive, plus if you have any EF-S lenses you won't be able to mount those on the 6D or any FF camera, and you'll have to invest in new lenses (an added cost which can be substantial). FF sensors tend to offer clearer, sharper images than cropped sensors (especially indoors), but you give up "reach" (i.e., your telephoto lenses will not zoom as far), you have less depth of field (area of focus is smaller for a given aperture). Also, the 6D is not action oriented - the AF is not as sophisticated as on the 70D/7D2. 

I think you'll find that the 70D is better suited for everyday, all-purpose shooting on a budget. The 7D2 is the next step up (as previously mentioned) and is the top of the line cropped sensor camera - but I don't know if your budget stretches that far. It is also a bigger, heavier camera and if weight is an issue I wouldn't recommend it anyway. 

Also - two new Rebels were announced last month - the T6i and T6s. Similar price range. Have you had a look at those?


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## Tinky (Mar 6, 2015)

The 7D is a great buy just now. 

Although the T3 is newer on paper, it's image sensor is from the older 450D. Same Digic Generation although the 7D has two of them, plus a dedicated AF processor.

It's a leap on in terms of AF, but not BETTER as such for everybody. If you are prepared to spend some time with the manual and tweak a bit it can be a very very rewarding camera to use, things like AiServo customisation and Micro Focus Adjust are only worth having if you are going to use them.

For many people the 7D was a backwards step right out of the box, it only really shines if you take the time to set it up properly, and then it really really shines.

Great frame rate, great images up to around 3200, great af, especially with better lenses.

If you shoot sports or action it's a worthwhile upgrade. The 70D might be a gentler step (all of the good bits of the 7D, better sensor, better processor, less complicated custom settings - I hope this doesn't sound patronising, apologies if it does, just want to hammer the point that the 7D is an enthusiasts camera, not a magic bullet solution to automatically better pics) though not as quite a great deal just now.

The logic of better lenses holds true somewhat. Brighter glass gets the best out of any AF system, things like USM motors, ring type motors, really speed things up, as does focus limiting etc. 

Outdoors in good light, the kit f3.5-5.6 aperture lenses do really well. If you start getting a bit more demanding they falter.

I can't say favour lenses or camera until I know a bit more about your circumstances..

I can say the 7D is great camera to use, and once you are in harmony with it, it has the potential to vastly up your keeper rate.


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## pcdebb (Mar 9, 2015)

Thank you Tinky for your feedback. One thing I've learned that sometimes it really doesnt matter what camera you have, it's the person behind it. I may make a decision soon, and I"ll be sure to update you guys. I'm also looking for some glass and might come to you all for recommendations


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## pcdebb (Mar 10, 2015)

The person selling me the camera is not a stranger to me. He's letting me "rent" the camera for a few days. He had a 70d a week ago but sold it, so I took him up on his offer. While it's heavier than my T3, I actually like the sturdiness of it. I really like it. I have to learn the buttons again as the layout is a little different. 

The only thing I hate is that CF cards are expensive! Any recommended brands to get and/or stay away from? Right now I have a Kingston.


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## jdramirez (Mar 10, 2015)

pcdebb said:


> The person selling me the camera is not a stranger to me. He's letting me "rent" the camera for a few days. He had a 70d a week ago but sold it, so I took him up on his offer. While it's heavier than my T3, I actually like the sturdiness of it. I really like it. I have to learn the buttons again as the layout is a little different.
> 
> The only thing I hate is that CF cards are expensive! Any recommended brands to get and/or stay away from? Right now I have a Kingston.



Lexar and Sandisk. CF is much much faster than SD cards... so embrace it... you aren't just paying more, you are getting more... provided you take successive shots.

Also... other brands are ok... all have a failure rate... but I think I speak for most of us when I say that Sandisk seems to be at the highest possible level when it comes to not losing data. You might not have experienced this yet... but when it happens, it is devestating. 

While you are learning the layout... you may want to consider back button focusing. I do it because all the cool kids do it. It isn't bad... it just takes some getting used to... and there are many who swear by it.


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## pcdebb (Mar 10, 2015)

I've heard of back button focusing but never tried it. I wanna be cool too so I will learn it lol 8)


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## FTb-n (Mar 10, 2015)

jdramirez said:


> pcdebb said:
> 
> 
> > The person selling me the camera is not a stranger to me. He's letting me "rent" the camera for a few days. He had a 70d a week ago but sold it, so I took him up on his offer. While it's heavier than my T3, I actually like the sturdiness of it. I really like it. I have to learn the buttons again as the layout is a little different.
> ...


I'm one who swears by back button focusing. My kids took to it as well, it's quite natural.

As for cards, I've had good luck with Transcend UDMA 400x 32GB cards. While I have several, there are two that I use most often (one for each 5D3). It's safe to say that each has held over 20,000 images and still work fine.

Once you copy your images to your computer and made two additional backups (on separate devices), erase your card by formatting in the camera. Do NOT delete the contents from your computer. In-camera formatting is the safest way to clean a card.

The Transcend 32 GB cards (in 400x and 800x) cards are selling for $30-36 each on Amazon -- which I think is cheap.


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## jdramirez (Mar 10, 2015)

Also... pay attention to write v. read speeds... sometimes a card will advertise 1000x read speeds, and the write speeds are only 400x. So just make sure you know what you are getting.


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## pcdebb (Mar 11, 2015)

I copy images to my computer at the end of the day, and back up to cd/dvd every month. At some point I want to back up to the cloud, I think I have 74gb of free space on Dropbox.


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## Valvebounce (Mar 11, 2015)

FTb-n said:


> In-camera formatting is the safest way to clean a card.



Yes right up to the point you put Magic lantern on then you have to have to delete the files from the card on the PC. 

Cheers, Graham.


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## FTb-n (Mar 13, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> FTb-n said:
> 
> 
> > In-camera formatting is the safest way to clean a card.
> ...


I never explored Magic Lantern. I'm guessing that the code lives on the card?


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## Valvebounce (Mar 13, 2015)

Hi FTb-n. 
No expert on ML, but as far as I know the camera boot is interrupted and diverted to load ML from the card, I believe you can boot without ML if you put a clean card in. 

Cheers, Graham. 



FTb-n said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > FTb-n said:
> ...


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## Marsu42 (Mar 13, 2015)

Valvebounce said:


> No expert on ML, but as far as I know the camera boot is interrupted and diverted to load ML from the card, I believe you can boot without ML if you put a clean card in.



Correct, you can also boot w/o ML at any time simply by pressing a designated key (varies between camera models, usually SET).


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## Valvebounce (Mar 13, 2015)

Hi Marsu. 
I thought you would be there to catch me if I slipped up! Glad I got that much correct. 

Cheers, Graham. 



Marsu42 said:


> Valvebounce said:
> 
> 
> > No expert on ML, but as far as I know the camera boot is interrupted and diverted to load ML from the card, I believe you can boot without ML if you put a clean card in.
> ...


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