# Camera setup for dental clinic



## Perio (Jul 15, 2014)

Hello guys, I hope you all are doing great. I need a camera+macro lens+macro ring combo to photograph teeth and other stuff in the mouth in dental patients. So, I have two options and I need your help.

1. I have an old 5di which I can use in the clinic. But I need macro lens and macro flash. For a lens, I'm deciding between 100mm f2.8L and non-L. How good is the quality of the non-L lens, which is much cheaper than L one? What macro ring would you recommend besides the one Canon makes ($500)?

2. Get a crop camera, 60mm f2.8 EF-S and macro ring. How good is 60mm f2.8 lens? 

I don't need top quality of the pictures, but it should be at least very good. All other people in the clinic use Nikon  

Thanks!


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jul 15, 2014)

A camera with LIVE VIEW will greatly facilitate to photograph the teeth inside the mouth. An APS-C camera makes it even easier because of the depth of field wider. If the camera has an articulated LCD, will be great. I recommend Canon 70D + EF-S 60mm macro + ring LED continuous light.
See the link for a suggestion LED light ring.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902798-REG/Interfit_str172_Strobies_LED_Macro_Ring.html/ul/P/umse/0

However, any current Rebel model will do a decent job. Both Canon 60mm and 100mm macro has great picture quality. The advantage of the 100mm L is the Image Stabilizer, and sharpness a little higher, and the BOKEH when used in F2.8. But for the photos of the teeth you will often use F11, and then the quality of the lens will be the same.


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## RustyTheGeek (Jul 15, 2014)

I think I have a good EF 60mm Macro lens if you're interested. I agree that live view + articulated screen would be a good setup. I also have a 60D to go with the 60mm! 

IMHO, you could probably do fine with a 3rd party macro light, at least until you're sure that the equipment setup is working the way you expect.

Question: How do you plan to get the image files transferred over to the computer/dental software? Eye-Fi perhaps??

I'm an IT Guy and I've worked with a few dental offices. Does your dental office software have a easy to use photo import feature to attach photos to the patients' record files? Do you already have an iCat or other type of x-ray device that your dental software manages the image files from?

My thought is that the camera might be the easiest part. The hard part is getting the photos imported and attached to the patient records correctly and easy enough that the entire staff can do it correctly every time.

Don't forget that whatever workflow you come up with should adhere to the HIPAA laws. (Like the WiFi must be encrypted and ideally the SD cards never leave the camera to avoid loss/theft/confusion.)


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 15, 2014)

Canon sold a 10D with 100 macro and ring flash that is still the standard in many dental clinics.


I'd suggest a 70D plus a 100mm L with a ring flash as being a little more modern. The live view insures that you get what you need in one shot, and the IS helps stabilize the image so you can focus on the right spot.


With the 5D MK I, you will need a longer macro lens, look for a 150-200mm macro lens for the approximate same FOV on a FF camera.


All the Macro lenses tend to be excellent, so don't fuss over the brand.


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## Perio (Jul 15, 2014)

All right, I completely forgot about the live view. I guess now it's time to look for a good deal on some crop cameras. Did you have a chance to use that LED light ring?



ajfotofilmagem said:


> A camera with LIVE VIEW will greatly facilitate to photograph the teeth inside the mouth. An APS-C camera makes it even easier because of the depth of field wider. If the camera has an articulated LCD, will be great. I recommend Canon 70D + EF-S 60mm macro + ring LED continuous light.
> See the link for a suggestion LED light ring.
> 
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/902798-REG/Interfit_str172_Strobies_LED_Macro_Ring.html/ul/P/umse/0
> ...


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## Perio (Jul 15, 2014)

I wish I knew the answers, but I just started my residency 2 weeks ago and didn't have a chance to figure out all these details. I'll ask current residents and faculty how they transfer the images  



RustyTheGeek said:


> I think I have a good EF 60mm Macro lens if you're interested. I agree that live view + articulated screen would be a good setup. I also have a 60D to go with the 60mm!
> 
> IMHO, you could probably do fine with a 3rd party macro light, at least until you're sure that the equipment setup is working the way you expect.
> 
> ...


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## Perio (Jul 15, 2014)

Thank you! I see prices for 7d are going down quite rapidly these past weeks. Would it be better to get 7d instead of 70d? Do you have any experience with third-party macro ring flashes? I really don't want to pay $500 for Canon's one.

Will check the deals on Nikon and maybe Pentax and see what would be the best bang for the buck. 




Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Canon sold a 10D with 100 macro and ring flash that is still the standard in many dental clinics.
> 
> 
> I'd suggest a 70D plus a 100mm L with a ring flash as being a little more modern. The live view insures that you get what you need in one shot, and the IS helps stabilize the image so you can focus on the right spot.
> ...


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 15, 2014)

Perio said:


> Thank you! I see prices for 7d are going down quite rapidly these past weeks. Would it be better to get 7d instead of 70d? Do you have any experience with third-party macro ring flashes? I really don't want to pay $500 for Canon's one.
> 
> Will check the deals on Nikon and maybe Pentax and see what would be the best bang for the buck.
> 
> ...




I'd go for the better live view performance of the 70D. Since it uses the sensor for phase detect autofocus, it does provide excellent autofocus accuracy and speed. The 70D has some features like many FPS, but you will want focus speed and accuracy more than FPS. The 70D also contains much of the 7D Autofocus module when not in live view, so you basically lose the FPS and the studlier build.


A 70D can be had for less or the same as a 7D.


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## Halfrack (Jul 15, 2014)

Looks like the 100mm non-L macro is what others are using

http://www.photomed.net/components.htm


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## RustyTheGeek (Jul 15, 2014)

Halfrack said:


> Looks like the 100mm non-L macro is what others are using
> 
> http://www.photomed.net/components.htm



I did some web searching as well and it appears that just about any decent lens, esp the macro lenses will work. The real trick appears to involve using special mirrors inside the mouth to help expose the target tooth, etc.

Personally, I would probably just get a decent Rebel body, EF (not L) macro lens and a decent aftermarket flash and/or ring light.


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## Perio (Jul 16, 2014)

All right, thanks for your suggestions. Yup, we'll be using special mirrors to take all intraoral pictures. I've asked the same question on N forum as well, and I was told LED light flash is not good. So, I guess I'd have to get a Canon's or Sigma's macro ring flash. Oh well, that's all right. 

If someone has a good copy of 60 EF-S and macro ring flash, let me know )



RustyTheGeek said:


> Halfrack said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like the 100mm non-L macro is what others are using
> ...


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## Logan (Jul 16, 2014)

my dentist has the canon dentist kit with the 100L (dont think they sell the kit anymore, it used to come all the required accessories in a hard case) and uses it tethered to a laptop on a little rolling cart.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 16, 2014)

Logan said:


> my dentist has the canon dentist kit with the 100L (dont think they sell the kit anymore, it used to come all the required accessories in a hard case) and uses it tethered to a laptop on a little rolling cart.



it likely did not have the 100L, its a new lens. They used the older 100mm macros, original or USM. They are fine for his purpose, but slow to focus at short distances.


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## wsmith96 (Jul 16, 2014)

I have a good copy of the 60 macro, but no ring flash. I can tell you that the 60 macro can produce some amazing photographs. If you choose to use a crop camera, you will be happy with the results of the 60 macro.


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## KitsVancouver (Jul 16, 2014)

Perio said:


> Hello guys, I hope you all are doing great. I need a camera+macro lens+macro ring combo to photograph teeth and other stuff in the mouth in dental patients. So, I have two options and I need your help.
> 
> 1. I have an old 5di which I can use in the clinic. But I need macro lens and macro flash. For a lens, I'm deciding between 100mm f2.8L and non-L. How good is the quality of the non-L lens, which is much cheaper than L one? What macro ring would you recommend besides the one Canon makes ($500)?
> 
> ...



Are you looking to take photos more for restorative or cosmetic dentistry? 

If you are looking for cosmetic photos, then live view isn't that useful. Most patients are going to be happy with before and after photos as long as you get their veneer colours to match well. The problem with veneer colouring is often educating the patient on the changing colour of their non-veneered teeth. Some patients after getting a veneer, implant, etc will still not be happy with the colour after the tooth is done. 
If you are looking for cosmetic photos for a portfolio, then that's a different matter and probably a much bigger discussion. 

Restorative dentistry photos are really tricky. I've seen a bunch of dentists buy the G-series dentist kit and rarely take it out of the aluminum box. 
As for live view...you're never going to use it because it's only useful on a tripod. One thing to keep in mind is that with the 100L, you will still need to be quite close to get shots inside the mouth in which case, your depth of field is going to be very very shallow. Definitely get the L 100mm macro because of the IS.


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## KitsVancouver (Jul 16, 2014)

Perio said:


> Hello guys, I hope you all are doing great. I need a camera+macro lens+macro ring combo to photograph teeth and other stuff in the mouth in dental patients. So, I have two options and I need your help.
> 
> 1. I have an old 5di which I can use in the clinic. But I need macro lens and macro flash. For a lens, I'm deciding between 100mm f2.8L and non-L. How good is the quality of the non-L lens, which is much cheaper than L one? What macro ring would you recommend besides the one Canon makes ($500)?
> 
> ...



Just noticed your user name. I'm assuming you're a periodontist in which case, you're looking at mostly cosmetic. Definitely get the 100L. You might want to consider getting a tripod but that could scare some of your patients.


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## seekn (Jul 16, 2014)

Hey I'm a general dentist, I use Canon outside the office and Nikon in the office so my setup will be different. What I can tell you is that you don't really need a great body. I bought an entry level Nikon and it works just fine - you really need a good lens and ringflash. I use the 100 mm macro because it gives you a farther focal distance than the 60 I believe so you are not up in the patient's face. 
Also I bump the ISO up a lot - around 1600 (a lot for the cheap Nikon) so that I can at least get a f5.6 aperture range - enough to get a few teeth in focus.
I use a single point focus and everything seems to work out fine. Just make sure you point it at an area of high conrast - the contact area, or margin is often a good focal spot.
I also use the operatory light to give me the extra lighting I need in the posterior, not too direct though to cause a blowout.
Most dental images are for web use only so resolution and grain are not that much of a concern. There really is no need for a tripod or anything.
Hope this helps.


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## Sabaki (Jul 16, 2014)

Canon EF 100mm Macro (non L) with the MR-14EX ringflash

The L is a better lens but your use is not that of a macro fundi. And you'll need the 67C macro adaptor which is further expense too


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## Hillsilly (Jul 16, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> They used the older 100mm macros, original or USM. They are fine for his purpose, but slow to focus at short distances.



I've got the original 100mm macro (ie non USM). It is a good sharp lens. But focusing at close distances is very, very painful - it likes to leisurely hunt and hunt and hunt. I typically keep mine on manual focus. But if you can pick a good one up cheap and don't need snappy focusing speed, you won't be disappointed with the image quality.


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## spacetimeroger (Jul 16, 2014)

Hillsilly said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > They used the older 100mm macros, original or USM. They are fine for his purpose, but slow to focus at short distances.
> ...



re: the original (non USM) 100mm macro - that's one of the sharpest lenses I've ever used, although the AF is not terribly speedy. From what I understand, the USM version is optically the same. My father was/is a dentist, and I remember all of this stuff growing up (He used the 100mm non USM macro on an EOS-1 film body) The first camera I really remember w/regards to dental photography was the Yashica Dental Eye II.


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## NancyP (Jul 16, 2014)

I have the 60D plus EF-S 60mm f/2.8, and this is a good combination for general macro (I am not a dentist, I am a pathologist, so my specimens are sitting on a copy stand - I don't need image stabilization: IS, OS, VC are the brand terms for stabilization). For hand-held, the Canon 100mm f/2.8 L IS ($1,050.00) may be a good choice due to the IS, and also consider third party dedicated 1:1-capable macro lenses with IS in the 90-150mm range, Sigma 105mm f/2.8 OS ($670.00) and Tamron 90mm f/2.8 VC($750.00). Do the patients object to flash? Your camera sensor will be 11 to 12 inches from the patient, with the lens being about 5" long, the front of the lens will be 6" to 7" from the patient's face for 1:1 image (you may not need 1:1 for an APS-C camera, 1:2 may be fine). If this is too cramped for you, go to the Sigma 150mm f/2.8 OS, wihich gives you 9" between front of lens and patient for 1:1. The 90-105mm lenses are lighter weight. By all means skip the 180 mm macros, which are quite heavy and rather intimidating - I have the Canon 180mm f/3.5L, and it is a beast.

For lighting, I shall defer to the dentists. A ring light would seem like the obvious choice. There's lots of different choices. The ceiling light or a headlamp would serve as a necessary angle fill light. Get a store-bought solution. Insect/flower/coin macrophotographers often custom build a flash diffuser from an existing hot-shoe flash , but you shouldn't, because you want a professional appearing flash rig, not one made out of a Pringles can.


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## mackguyver (Jul 16, 2014)

NancyP said:


> By all means skip the 180 mm macros, which are quite heavy and rather intimidating - I have the Canon 180mm f/3.5L, and it is a beast.


Did you know that the 180mm f/3.5L was actually designed for dentists and supposedly is available in Japan as a kit with the lens, macro ring adapter, and MR-14EX II Macro Ring Lite?

From CPN:
"Originally designed for dentists, the 180mm focal length allows them to get life-size magnification of a patient’s teeth without having to get right into their mouth."


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## Perio (Jul 17, 2014)

Thanks for all your suggestions, guys! I talked to current residents today, and most of them use crop Nikon bodies with Nikon 105 micro/macro lens and a macro ring flash. Sorry for a silly question, but would 100mm L macro lens fit into a Canon's crop body, like 7d or 70d? 

Please let me know if anybody has a good copy of 100L.


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## Perio (Jul 17, 2014)

I'm thinking maybe at some point we should vote for having a buy/sell forum for CR members, like on fredmiranda? Not sure whether admin would want that though


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## Vivid Color (Jul 17, 2014)

Perio said:


> Thanks for all your suggestions, guys! I talked to current residents today, and most of them use crop Nikon bodies with Nikon 105 micro/macro lens and a macro ring flash. Sorry for a silly question, but would 100mm L macro lens fit into a Canon's crop body, like 7d or 70d?
> 
> Please let me know if anybody has a good copy of 100L.



Yes, you may put a 100 mm L macro lens on a Canon crop body. 

I have a fantastically sharp copy of the 100 mm L macro but it's not for sale.


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## Daniel 78d (Jul 17, 2014)

The best choice will probably be the rebel t3i dental kit from b&h. It comes with a t3i that has an articulated screen, a 60mm macro and a ring flash. I can't find a way to connect a shortcut but I just looked at it.


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## KitsVancouver (Jul 17, 2014)

Perio said:


> Thanks for all your suggestions, guys! I talked to current residents today, and most of them use crop Nikon bodies with Nikon 105 micro/macro lens and a macro ring flash. Sorry for a silly question, but would 100mm L macro lens fit into a Canon's crop body, like 7d or 70d?
> 
> Please let me know if anybody has a good copy of 100L.



They probably have crop bodies because no one told them the difference between crop and FF. 

Yes, the 100L will fit on any Canon body with an EF mount. It will fit on both the 7D and the 70D. The crop body does give you some more working distance. 

If you are going to use the camera for photos other than dental, then you should consider a FF body. 

I wouldn't look at cost too much as you can write off all this gear.


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## tolusina (Jul 17, 2014)

KitsVancouver said:


> ...They probably have crop bodies because no one told them the difference between crop and FF....
> 
> .....I wouldn't look at cost too much as you can write off all this gear.


Yes, this ^^.
---
I'll start by stating that I know absolutely nothing about medical imaging.
I do know that I'd really prefer my medical professional not make surgical decisions based on photographs with fun house mirror type distortions.
To avoid visual compression or fish eye effects one must use a near normal or natural focal length, that natural or normal focal length being one that's as close as possible the sensor's (or film's) diagonal.

I looked up specs for a 7D that uses a typically sized Canon 1.6 crop factor sensor with dimensions of 22.3 x 14.9 mm, diagonal of that sensor is approximately 27mm. 
I'm unaware of any macro lenses with a focal length near 27mm.

Diagonal of a full frame 36 x 24mm sensor is approximately 43mm.

On a B&H listing of Canon mount macro lenses 

there is a Canon EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro Lens 

a Sigma Normal 50mm f/2.8 EX DG Macro Autofocus Lens

and a Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro Photo Lens

All with focal lengths fairly close to the 43mm full frame diagonal, for sure a lot closer to the 43mm full frame diagonal than the 27mm crop diagonal.
- - -
Note that the Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM Lens and the Tamron G005 SP AF60mm f/2.0 Di II LD 1:1 Macro Lens are both for APS-C crop sensor bodies and cannot be used on full frame bodies.
- - -
Regarding concerns about how close to a patient you'll need to be with these shorter focal lengths, um, you will soon be close enough as to be in the patient's mouth when actually working, is closeness of a camera really relevant?

Regarding LED ring lights, I've made and used several. As they were not real bright, a steady camera and subject are both helpful. They did indeed cast even and mostly shadowless light. 
Being continuous light, you get a very good idea what your photo will look like through the finder or live view before triggering the shutter unlike with flash where you find out after.
This might be a consideration towards minimizing patient discomfort by avoiding multiple flash discharges as you dial in the exposure. 
Then too, likely, once you've a small bit of experience you'll know what settings work and will need but a single flash exposure.


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## Perio (Jul 18, 2014)

It's always like that  let me ask you a question. I've heard that normally functioning 100L should not make any sound while IS is working. Is that true? Does your copy make any sound when you try to focus? Thanks!



Vivid Color said:


> Perio said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for all your suggestions, guys! I talked to current residents today, and most of them use crop Nikon bodies with Nikon 105 micro/macro lens and a macro ring flash. Sorry for a silly question, but would 100mm L macro lens fit into a Canon's crop body, like 7d or 70d?
> ...


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## Perio (Jul 18, 2014)

Thanks for the info, mackguyver, I didn't know that. I just looked at the specs, and 180L is almost twice as heavy as 100L (~1100g vs. 650g). Do you know how much more bulky 180L is as compared to 100L?



mackguyver said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > By all means skip the 180 mm macros, which are quite heavy and rather intimidating - I have the Canon 180mm f/3.5L, and it is a beast.
> ...


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## wickidwombat (Jul 18, 2014)

i'd look at the eos m and ef adapter + 100 L macro due to the IS 

eos m is dirt cheap great quality nice touch screen and with the IS on the macro its easily going to be hand holdable


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## Vivid Color (Jul 20, 2014)

Perio said:


> Thanks for the info, mackguyver, I didn't know that. I just looked at the specs, and 180L is almost twice as heavy as 100L (~1100g vs. 650g). Do you know how much more bulky 180L is as compared to 100L?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've photographed flowers with Canon's 180L macro and it is a fantastic lens. It is also VERY heavy. The 100mm L macro on a crop body will give you an effective reach of 160mm at a fraction of the weight and price.


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## Vivid Color (Jul 20, 2014)

Perio said:


> It's always like that  let me ask you a question. I've heard that normally functioning 100L should not make any sound while IS is working. Is that true? Does your copy make any sound when you try to focus? Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First, I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. My copy of the 100L does make a very small sound when focusing. Whether this is the motor used for focusing or the IS, I really don't know. Would a patient hear this? Possibly to probably given their hearing. But, I would say it's a sound that isn't nearly as loud or as high pitched as the sounds of other dental equipment.


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## IMG_0001 (Jul 20, 2014)

Neither a dentist or a macro specialist, but I think that if you go below 100mm equivalent FL and getting some light in the mouth will be a challenge. Longer might result in too much compression and unnatural look. I'd say stay with something similar to what others do. Ther must be a reason why manufacturers made similar kits.


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## Perio (Jul 20, 2014)

No apologies needed, thank you for your interest in the topic. The only reason I've asked about the IS sound is to know how loud is the good fully functional copy of 100L is. I've heard it should make only very little noise. I'm sure patients don't really care about that sound, while they are having surgery in their mouth. 

Thank you all for your suggestions. I'll be getting 100L and a crop body. Not sure about flash though, I may get the newest Canon MR14-EX ii ($550) or a used MR14-EX i ($400). 



Vivid Color said:


> Perio said:
> 
> 
> > It's always like that  let me ask you a question. I've heard that normally functioning 100L should not make any sound while IS is working. Is that true? Does your copy make any sound when you try to focus? Thanks!
> ...


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