# Canon EOS R6 specifications [CR3]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jan 29, 2020)

> We mentioned previously that four new full-frame cameras were coming from Canon in 2020, and we now know two of them are the EOS-1D X Mark III and the EOS R5. The third camera looks to be the EOS R6, as we received base specifications for the upcoming mirrorless camera.
> *Canon EOS R6 Specifications:*
> 
> 20mp full-frame CMOS sensor
> ...



Continue reading...


----------



## Southstorm (Jan 29, 2020)

Can't believe I'm first to comment...

Times are good!!!


----------



## Laslen (Jan 29, 2020)

How are they going to manage heat in these bodies, for video? Cooling fans?

This is a lot more believable than the R5 specs, at least.


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

Wow. So this is obviously not the EOS RS. It's not the EOS R ii. Exactly what is it?? Same sensor as the 1D X III?


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

So were the R and RP just starter models with throwaway names?

Will the future be:
​R1 (some face melting gripped sports volcano)​R5S (high res)​R5 (today's earlier rumor)​R6 (this thread's rumor)​
And a relatively modest 20 MP sensor in a 20 fps (we presume not gripped) body as the _entry _price point spec on that list? 

- A


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

It's all happening!


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> So were the R and RP just starter models with throwaway names?
> 
> Will the future be:
> ​R1 (some face melting gripped sports volcano)​R5S (high res)​R5 (today's earlier rumor)​R6 (this thread's rumor)​
> ...


Ah, so this is the rumoured model below the RP.


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 29, 2020)

So wait are they reproducing the 1/5/6/7 designations????

So R1 ..... the heavyweight truepro body? R5 is the new 5D and R6 is entry level full frame aka 6D..... R7 for sports?


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 29, 2020)

Okay so apologies for the double post but then logically an "R7" would be the rumoured APS-C in the RF mount?

And if it's a true 7D II MILC with the AF, dual card and bulletproof body...... I'll have two pls and a LOT of RF glass.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Ah, so this is the rumoured model below the RP.




So say you. RP lacks IBIS and sure as hell can't pop 12 / 20 fps.

R5 feels like the 5D5.
R6 feels like the 6D3.

RP may have been an inexpensive platform bugzapper to draw folks in to the platform. Perhaps RP and the original R will die out now once the more familiar hierarchy I posted above gets released.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> So wait are they reproducing the 1/5/6/7 designations????
> 
> So R1 ..... the heavyweight truepro body? R5 is the new 5D and R6 is entry level full frame aka 6D..... R7 for sports?




Oh no, Cat said Voldemort. 

Birders will have kittens over that one.

- A


----------



## Jethro (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> So say you. RP lacks IBIS and sure as hell can't pop 12 / 20 fps.
> 
> R5 feels like the 5D5.
> R6 feels like the 6D3.
> ...


I meant having regard to price-point. That was the rumour. I agree it could actually be better. RP was there as a cut-price FF (reusing the 6Dii sensor) to try and get people to upgrade into FF mirrorless. And with good video specs. But it does seem to have been a one-off.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> I meant having regard to price-point. That was the rumour. I agree it could actually be better. RP was there as a cut-price FF (reusing the 6Dii sensor) to try and get people to upgrade into FF mirrorless. And with good video specs. But it does seem to have been a one-off.




Gotcha.

So follow my very loose tea leaf assembly here. If an R5 is coming with the specs from the rumor, and this R6 is happening...

I feel pretty good in thinking our familiar product lines in 1 / 5S (res) / 5 (all-around) / 6 and possibly 7 are happening with an R in front.

And if THAT happens, where does EOS R or RP fit in that scheme? One might argue that neither do, and we might not see R2 or RP2 happen.

- A


----------



## navastronia (Jan 29, 2020)

This camera can't be a 6D successor with a lower resolution sensor than the 6DII.

If anything, these specs say "7DIII" minus the crop sensor . . . and if it is, I think there may never be an APS-C R  Or, the rumor is wrong and this isn't a full-frame camera . . .


----------



## navastronia (Jan 29, 2020)

Strange times, honestly.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

navastronia said:


> This camera can't be a 6D successor with a lower resolution sensor than the 6DII.




Sure it could. Tell every 6D2 owner that their new camera will come with all of the following upgrades:

IBIS
A proper on-chip ADC sensor (one can only hope that wrong is righted)
20 fps
4K
...and all it will cost them is (idk) $1800 and 6 less MP.

I bet you'd sell a bunch of cameras. Not all users would take that camera, but many would.

- A


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 29, 2020)

navastronia said:


> This camera can't be a 6D successor with a lower resolution sensor than the 6DII.
> 
> If anything, these specs say "7DIII" minus the crop sensor . . . and if it is, I think there may never be an APS-C R  Or, the rumor is wrong and this isn't a full-frame camera . . .




At the below RP pricepoint....? Oh it will sell a LOAD of cameras. It's an introduction FF so why not 20MP?



> And if THAT happens, where does EOS R or RP fit in that scheme?



Probably taken out the back and quietly shot.




ahsanford said:


> Oh no, Cat said Voldemort.
> 
> Birders will have kittens over that one.
> 
> - A



Oooops I invoked the Unholy Name of Sony unwittenly....... Umm... Canon is DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED?

(Altho if lets say the guess is right and the R7 IS a APS-C sports camera...... just imagine the M6 II's sensor spiced up with a DIGICX and cut down 1D mkIII liveview AF performance. Twin card slots, 7D II style budgeon people strong body - I reckon not just birders would lose their damn minds. It's not like that's a pie in the sky wish list, that IS a likely to be seen camera)


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jan 29, 2020)

navastronia said:


> This camera can't be a 6D successor with a lower resolution sensor than the 6DII.
> 
> If anything, these specs say "7DIII" minus the crop sensor . . . and if it is, I think there may never be an APS-C R  Or, the rumor is wrong and this isn't a full-frame camera . . .


OR...………...the rumour is a little off and the R6 may actually be a crop sensor 20mp camera


----------



## Jasonmc89 (Jan 29, 2020)

Wouldn't be surprised if R6 became the new RP.

R6
R5
R5S
R1
(and hopefully an R7)


----------



## navastronia (Jan 29, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> OR...………...the rumour is a little off and the R6 may actually be a crop sensor 20mp camera



If the rest of the specs are to be believed (sans that one), I buy it. If it's a full frame camera, with low MP and medium-high FPS, it doesn't fit anywhere within the current schema, unless it's also a low-light monster (and, therefore, an a7s competitor). Hmmmmmmmm.


----------



## navastronia (Jan 29, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> At the below RP pricepoint....? Oh it will sell a LOAD of cameras. It's an introduction FF so why not 20MP?



With IBIS and a shutter faster than the R (not to mention 4K 60), why would it come in below the RP? Surely not just for losing those 6 MP?



ahsanford said:


> Sure it could. Tell every 6D2 owner that their new camera will come with all of the following upgrades:
> 
> IBIS
> A proper on-chip ADC sensor (one can only hope that wrong is righted)
> ...



I don't think so. I know several wedding photographers who went with 6D models so they could have the 5D-lite experience --- I always saw the 6D as a 5D substitute (similar form factor and MP) for those who couldn't afford one, but still wanted a full-frame camera. Can't imagine anyone I know tolerating fewer pixels, knowing how these cameras are used, and that they do need to crop and print their images.



Jasonmc89 said:


> Wouldn't be surprised if R6 became the new RP.
> 
> R6
> R5
> ...



If it's the new RP, I think it'll cost $1600 to $2000 --- which kind of makes it the _un-_RP, imo.


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 29, 2020)

navastronia said:


> With IBIS and a shutter faster than the R (not to mention 4K 60), why would it come in below the RP? Surely not just for losing those 6 MP?


 
Because Canon would sell a ton of them and this seems like it's the rumoured low cost FF.


----------



## Lukas Haupt (Jan 29, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> Because Canon would sell a ton of them and this seems like it's the rumoured low cost FF.


Or it is rumoured low light body. Which could be really good. If there are no drawbacks like one cards slot etc, then R5 together with R6 would be perfect kit for wedding photographer. R6 for low light and maybe faster in terms of readout (better silent shutter) and R5 for portraits etc. Sounds really good to me


----------



## Troll Warlord (Jan 29, 2020)

Oh sh*t, I like them both.


----------



## TonyPM (Jan 29, 2020)

That R6 doesn't look like it is going to be an inexpensive camera.

20mpx is more than enough for normal use, but an in body high Res mode is always welcome.

Everything I would want in a camera. 

I just need to see what the image quality is going to look like at high isos . 
If the bodies have the same size as the RP I'd love it.


----------



## navastronia (Jan 29, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> Because Canon would sell a ton of them and this seems like it's the rumoured low cost FF.



Well yeah, but where's the precedent for selling a camera with these specs for, what? $1199? I'm not saying I don't want one, I'm just saying I don't think it's coming in at that price.


----------



## wockawocka (Jan 29, 2020)

So.... what about the Eos 5Ds replacement?


----------



## navastronia (Jan 29, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> So.... what about the Eos 5Ds replacement?



Great point, given we've been hearing about that camera for like a year.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> So were the R and RP just starter models with throwaway names?
> 
> Will the future be:
> ​R1 (some face melting gripped sports volcano)​R5S (high res)​R5 (today's earlier rumor)​R6 (this thread's rumor)​
> ...


I still can't wrap my head around you not buying the rf 50mm 1.2L. Heavenly. All anybody could ever want in a 50 except compactness, but the IQ so outweighs that. Compromise is one of the touchstones of photography!


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> So say you. RP lacks IBIS and sure as hell can't pop 12 / 20 fps.
> 
> R5 feels like the 5D5.
> R6 feels like the 6D3.
> ...



It does not feel like the 6DIII with the sensor down from 26 to 20 mpx.


----------



## xps (Jan 29, 2020)

20MP.. low.
You get 24MP with crop and an really insane AF at 850€ from competitors.
So pricing for FF should be lower than 1000€  ~850€


----------



## Go Wild (Jan 29, 2020)

Boy this is going to be a hell of a February! 

This one even shuffle a little bit more things....If it comes with 4k60 and 20fps, definitely is not a model Below RP, or even R (Unless Canon is making a standard [email protected] for the top models). With this 20mp sensor it could be more like a video centric camera but the 20mp seems a bit too much, however totally possible. This one could compete with other mirrorless cameras more directed to video but very capable of stills.

It could be a 1dx mirrorless, with 12 fps mechanical and 20fps electronic, well...this is a trully fast camera! Also with the video spec 4k60fps sounds really like a fast premium mirrorless! 

Or....It could be a new 6d mirrorless, but those 20mp don´t give much confidence on this one...

Soo....Having the EOS R with 4k30 and 30,3MP sensor, with a max of 8fps...now we have a 20MP sensor, with a max of 20fps and 4k60! This sounds like totally different camera segment. My guess?? Well...I would bet on the video directed camera If the video specs of the EOS R5 were here with this sensor. With this specs this really sound like a 1D mirrorless! 

Confusing! We must wait for further details


----------



## Stuart (Jan 29, 2020)

Once you have cracked the high FPS technology then is it really a cost differentiator - reusing the same electronics engine in multiple bodies helps keep costs down.
I'm a 6D mk1 shooter and until now really didn't know what body to consider for my tight budget. Maybe this is for me? I've love some wide open RF glass on my 6Dmk1 for low light this might be the business.


----------



## Stuart (Jan 29, 2020)

Also - IBIS - potentially can also mean much higher MP images when you combine images.


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> At the below RP pricepoint....? Oh it will sell a LOAD of cameras. It's an introduction FF so why not 20MP?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you a birder? Because I shoot birds and I do not want to use adaptors for my big white lenses. And I do not want to use EVF and lose the birds or kill the battery. I want my lenses on DSLRs!


----------



## Woody (Jan 29, 2020)

Where are the cheap and lightweight RF-mount lenses to accompany the R6?


----------



## tron (Jan 29, 2020)

Maybe it's not cheap if it is a Sony A7SII competitor.


----------



## zonoskar (Jan 29, 2020)

There was a rumor about a DR oriented EOS-R, is this it? If it is, this is all I need. IBIS, 20MP, 12fps, decent video and lots of DR.


----------



## Daan Stam (Jan 29, 2020)

i dont think is neccesarily is the 6d mark II replacement/equivalent i mean it defenitely could be but its not neccecarily an established fact. it could also be an expensive low light monster like the a7s(especially considering 12/20fps but then the no 8k would be wierd). it could also be the low light monster/entry level camera combined


----------



## Joules (Jan 29, 2020)

daaningrid said:


> it could also be an expensive low light monster like the a7s(especially considering 12/20fps but then the no 8k would be wierd).


8K is just over 33 MP resolution - in a 16:9 aspect ratio. To get a standard 3:2 ratio you need a sensor with an even higher resolution.

And unless Canon is doing some shenanigans with their newer sensors that they didn't pull in the past, they'll all do roughly equally well in low light.


----------



## BillB (Jan 29, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> Because Canon would sell a ton of them and this seems like it's the rumoured low cost FF.


Remember the $999 Rebel?


----------



## Daner (Jan 29, 2020)

It would be a logical move to put the 1DXIII sensor and processor into a lower-cost, less robust mirrorless body. I hope that they also bring over some version of the AF Smart Controller.


----------



## Dest (Jan 29, 2020)

I'm just glad I was right when I called this naming scheme a few weeks ago. It was logical since the M line started the same way with a bare EOS M model.


----------



## LensFungus (Jan 29, 2020)

If this camera costs less than the Canon EOS RP in the beginning it will be below the EOS RP no matter how good the specs are. An upcoming Canon EOS RP Mark II will have better specs than this, that's it.

Despite giving IBIS and [email protected] Canon has some options to release this camera for less money than the RP:
Less buttons, just one dial, no viewfinder, cheaper material for the body, no grip, screen with less resolution than other cameras, buttons less customizable, less menu options, 4k crop, less ports, no dual pixel af in 4k...


----------



## IcyBergs (Jan 29, 2020)

This really casts doubt to me on the fps specs we saw on the R5 rumor...maybe they got mixed up with this one.

Realistically I would have thought a R 5D4 successor would be at least 8fps, then I see the mp count is 45 and it would be logical to hope that maybe there's a chance you get 10fps, so hard to believe that it's* 45mp @ 20fps*!


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> And if THAT happens, where does EOS R or RP fit in that scheme? One might argue that neither do, and we might not see R2 or RP2 happen.





Cat_Interceptor said:


> Probably taken out the back and quietly shot.




Exactly.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> I still can't wrap my head around you not buying the rf 50mm 1.2L. Heavenly. All anybody could ever want in a 50 except compactness




and IS
and not being FBW
and light
and mounting on my EF camera

Other than that, it's *just* what I want. 

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

Woody said:


> Where are the cheap and lightweight RF-mount lenses to accompany the R6?




They are coming. You don't sell an FF body for $999 and force folks to spend $2500 for exotic glass. Less expensive RF lenses are coming.

Like these: https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-rf-24-105mm-f-3-5-5-6-is-stm-on-the-way-as-well-as-a-second-lens/

- A


----------



## koenkooi (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> and IS
> and not being FBW
> and light
> and mounting on my EF camera
> ...



I strongly suspect that *all* Canon made RF lenses will be either focus-by-wire or manual focus (TS-R). Maybe even fixed focus for an MP-R


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> So were the R and RP just starter models with throwaway names?
> 
> Will the future be:
> ​R1 (some face melting gripped sports volcano)​R5S (high res)​R5 (today's earlier rumor)​R6 (this thread's rumor)​
> ...



It feels like THIS is the Sony Alpha 7s (video centric) competitor (perhaps) seemingly using the same sensor as the DX3 with the same video feature set.
IF the CR3 on the R5 is correct, then 4k120 could happen here too.

What Im seeing here could be what I’d hoped for, for years. Three Canon Cameras at the same
Price range to do different jobs.

R5 - MILC 5 Body. All around workhorse, wedding Pros, etc...

R6 - Video Focused MILC everyone in that realm has been dying for

Rs - High Resolution update to 5DSR
All priced between $3k -4k

Thats the part about the previous rumor that has me wondering. Could the specs in the R5 post be right but actually be referring to two differentcameras? Maybe maybe not. But it would seem oddball to have 4K120 in the all arounder and NOT in a lower MP video tailored camera.... unless of course this is NOT their video tailored camera....

oh isnt this fun?!?! Lol


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

Okay, so can anyone explain to me how

R1 (presumed)​R? (high res, could be R5S, could be R3 or R4)​R5 (as spec'd in other thread)​R​R6 (this thread)​RP​R7 (okay, it _might_ happen)​
Can logically coexist on a go-forward basis? I can't.

To me, it would make a ton of sense to put R and RP to the sword. Then Canon would be telegraphing that something resembling Canon's current FF SLR lineup will be the final state of the RF plaform:

Putting out R5 and R6 now implies that R1 is coming, R5S is coming, etc. so folks don't buy the wrong mirrorless while waiting for their specific one to arrive. It also reinforces hierarchy, which camera is pricier, more prestigious to own, etc.
Current SLR users will have a companion FF mirrorless option as (potentially) the last refresh of each SLR line occurs.
Feature set and controls can be similar (or have a similar 'design language')
It just makes sense to me. There may be an odd surprise or two, a video centric rig perhaps, but otherwise it will be a familiar lineup for the Canon fainthful to opt into.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

I still see R6 = lower prestige / cost to the R5. 

R6/R5 feels very similar to Z6/Z7 for Nikon, but in reverse (in their non-gripped FF world, higher numbers are better cameras)

R6 = 6D3 to me. It may excel at video, but we don't have enough info to know if that's what this rig is for.

- A


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Ah, so this is the rumoured model below the RP.


Not with those specs it aint. No way.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I still see R6 = lower prestige / cost to the R5.
> 
> R6/R5 feels very similar to Z6/Z7 for Nikon, but in reverse (in their non-gripped FF world, higher numbers are better cameras)
> 
> ...


Agreed not enough info yet but the 12fps bit .... something feels off. How could both the R5 and R6 share that key spec? And that absolutely would NOT put it at or below the RP. I’m wondering some specs are getting lost/crossed in rumor translation. Cant see how these two both would offer that without some radical other differences (more than just sensor size that is)


----------



## mpmark (Jan 29, 2020)

Laslen said:


> How are they going to manage heat in these bodies, for video? Cooling fans?
> 
> This is a lot more believable than the R5 specs, at least.



If people arent complaing the specs suck, theyre complaining how the hell they're going to make those specs possible! Canon can never win lol


----------



## koenkooi (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Not with those specs it aint. No way.



But what if its introduction price is below the RP's introduction price? Say $100 less.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> and IS
> and not being FBW
> and light
> and mounting on my EF camera
> ...



I will say that my hands are not steady. But the way that the Rf 50mm f/1.2L balances, and the shutter speeds we enjoy at f/2.2 and lower, together work to make IS something I don't miss. However, if video were a factor, then IS would be important.

Plus, I just took for granted when I bought in to the Rf mount that IBIS would be coming at some point, and that the primes would get even better because of it.


----------



## mpmark (Jan 29, 2020)

navastronia said:


> Can't imagine anyone I know tolerating fewer pixels, knowing how these cameras are used, and that they do need to crop and print their images.



Do you even realize how big you can print 20mp? And Id honestly question in this day and age how many actually print, wedding photo books, sure. A large 30x40? Yeah a 20MP can do that no problem. People really get lost in numbers when it comes to MP and dont actually know the facts behind it


----------



## BillB (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Agreed not enough info yet but the 12fps bit .... something feels off. How could both the R5 and R6 share that key spec? And that absolutely would NOT put it at or below the RP. I’m wondering some specs are getting lost/crossed in rumor translation. Cant see how these two both would offer that without some radical other differences (more than just sensor size that is)


The R5 will have 2 card slots, the R6 one.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

YuengLinger said:


> I will say that my hands are not steady. But the way that the Rf 50mm f/1.2L balances, and the shutter speeds we enjoy at f/2.2 and lower, together work to make IS something I don't miss. However, if video were a factor, then IS would be important.
> 
> Plus, I just took for granted when I bought in to the Rf mount that IBIS would be coming at some point, and that the primes would get even better because of it.




And I've used the R + that 50L. It is lovely.

But sir, this is an Arby's R6 thread. 

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

BillB said:


> The R5 will have 2 card slots, the R6 one.




Surely. And the R5 has a lot more resolution. And the R6 may have a tinier buffer, fewer AF points, not get a sexy (who knows) e-shutter 1/16000 exposure, tilting EVF, as large or high res of an EVF, etc.

We don't remotely know enough of the fine print at this stage, but Canon is adept at developing compelling tiers/levels/price points of offerings. They'll know how to push our buttons just so, and get us to wish the 'nearly perfect to me' R6 had 2-4 things that R5 does for (idk) $1000 more. It's what they do.

- A


----------



## fox40phil (Jan 29, 2020)

20MP.... same sensor as the 1DXIII?!
This can be the low res Canon?!


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

mpmark said:


> Do you even realize how big you can print 20mp? And Id honestly question in this day and age how many actually print, wedding photo books, sure. A large 30x40? Yeah a 20MP can do that no problem. People really get lost in numbers when it comes to MP and dont actually know the facts behind it




I've had this OG Digital Rebel 6 MP shot -- cropped no less -- sitting on my wall for 12 years now.

_The print is 36" across. _

It's about time to change it out for something better, but I've received zero comments (incl. from pixel peeping photographers) about needing more resolution or why I blew it up that large.

It's not remotely what I would consider a strong piece of photography. It was just a striking memory from a unique place. That's what mattered to me.




- A


----------



## mcfrlnd (Jan 29, 2020)

aaahhhhh....10 hours and 4 pages late to the game.
So, I've been waiting for the R Mark II. Based on the this rumored lineup, will the R6 be it? The solo "R" moniker was just a trial run, then?
Anyway, really looking forward to seeing the video specs of this Sixer...


----------



## MartinF. (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> So say you. RP lacks IBIS and sure as hell can't pop 12 / 20 fps.
> 
> R5 feels like the 5D5.
> R6 feels like the 6D3.
> ...


seems like it. Nice if we are beginning to see a naming scheme that is makes sense (and are related to the old one). Makes perfect sense that "R" (that was between 5D and 6D series) will be superseded by an R5 and an R6. probably a R1 for pro-sports. Maybe a R7 (APS-C) for sports and maybe space for another APS-C (and RP style entry-level APS-C - to take over from 90D or Rebels) - who know - and R8 ? (I do believe in APS-C sensors for the "R" mount).
And then get rid of the "s", and make a high megapixel R5 and name it R3. (they never used the name 3D, probably because it means something else in the film world).
Anyway - just guessing - but 2020 look to be a very exiting Canon year. It has been a long waiting.

Originally I guessed that my 6D would not be my last DSLR and - when time comes - would be replaced by a 5D mkIV or an upcoming 5D mkV. But i Canon get i right (specs. and price) with an R5 maybe that one will be the next?


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

MartinF. said:


> seems like it. Nice if we are beginning to see a naming scheme that is makes sense (and are related to the old one). Makes perfect sense that "R" (that was between 5D and 6D series) will be superseded by an R5 and an R6. probably a R1 for pro-sports. Maybe a R7 (APS-C) for sports and maybe space for another APS-C (and RP style entry-level APS-C - to take over from 90D or Rebels) - who know - and R8 ? (I do believe in APS-C sensors for the "R" mount).
> And then get rid of the "s", and make a high megapixel R5 and name it R3. (they never used the name 3D, probably because it means something else in the film world).




Yep. Keep reading this thread. You got to a similar conclusion faster than I did.

- A


----------



## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

Sorry to burst everyone's naming scheme bubble, but I'm not convinced just yet.

Too little information at this point, but it certainly seems plausible that the R5 is a video oriented mirrorless and the R6 is a stills-oriented low-light action camera.

The R6 is definitely above the level of the RP, based on frame rate and IBIS alone. If the "new battery" is the LP-E6 compatible battery we've been told about, that also puts it above the RP.

A 20mp sensor? Canon likes to reuse sensors. Would they really put their flagship 1Dx sensor into a bargain basement body?

12 fps? In an entry-level body?

Break out of the old naming scheme for a second. Couple a 12 fps, 20 mp body with a new more responsive autofocus system and a new LP-E6 style battery, plus new energy efficiencies pioneered in the 1Dx III, and you have a very good mirrorless companion (not replacement, but companion) to the 1Dx. 

Not saying it's so, but just suggesting that people shouldn't get trapped by old naming schemes.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Sorry to burst everyone's naming scheme bubble, but I'm not convinced just yet.
> 
> Too little information at this point, but it certainly seems plausible that the R5 is a video oriented mirrorless and the R6 is a stills-oriented low-light action camera.




So a 50 MP rig is clearly a stills product, but gaming up the res in a video rig to 45 MP just to pull off 8K video makes it a video rig all of a sudden? 

I disagree. I think it's eeeeeeasy to water down video specs with DPAF limitations, crop, codec, etc. that could make this less dreamy of a video rig, but 45 x 12 with a mechanical shutter is 45 x 12 unless they pull some bush-league (must be JPG, AE locked, no RAW at max fps, etc.) nonsense that we typically don't see in cameras of this level.

Far more likely Canon is beefing up the 5D do-everything line, possibly due to Sony demonstrating success at stealing some Canon pros. I think the R5 is the mirrorless 5D5 effectively -- the big, bad all-battlefield workhorse.



unfocused said:


> 12 fps? In an entry-level body?




Current entry levels:

A7 III = 24x10​D780* = 24x12 (e-shutter, but still)​Z6 = 24x12 (12 bit, however)​
(*D6XX = RIP, I guess?)​
So, yeah, that's bonkers for an average non-action enthusiast with a 6D... but it's where we are in 2020.

The 20 MP is admittedly odd and invites questions, though. But the '6' in the name, if true, should dispel that this is some gripped 1-series mirrorless.

But: point taken on the naming schemes. I'm presuming that Canon will be a rigid creature of habit, or that they think a brand's value is highly tied to it's identifiability by name, they are afraid folks buy a lesser priced rig because the naming confused them, etc. For all we know, Canon may have always regretted aspects of the 1/5DS/5/6/7 split and want to rectify that with the new platform, or they may have altogether new-purpose lines and FF segmentation plans.

- A


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> But what if its introduction price is below the RP's introduction price? Say $100 less.


Either the specs are wrong or the price is higher than the RP. Can't be both. 12fps in a camera priced WAY below what we would assume the R5 to be? That alone doesn't jive with "entry level"


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Either the specs are wrong or the price is higher than the RP. Can't be both. 12fps in a camera priced WAY below what we would assume the R5 to be? That alone doesn't jive with "entry level"




And the 20 MP immediately invites 'R1' gripped body thinking.

Someone at Canon is going to have to give a body roadmap (or something) because these names R/R5/R6/RP are all over the map and we know 1-series and high res are still yet to come.

My dance card, right now (and we clearly aren't all in agreement on this):

1-series --> R1
5DS --> R2, R3, R4 or R5S?
5D --> R5
R --> ​6D --> R6
RP --> ​7D --> R7 (if it happens at all)

Sorry, there wasn't a tombstone emoji.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

And what's with all these leaks now for an R5 in July and an R6 in June?

Is Sony rolling out the A7 IV imminently or something? Is this a 'stay with us Canon people, the hotness is coming' sort of defensive announcement?

- A


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> A 20mp sensor? Canon likes to reuse sensors. Would they really put their flagship 1Dx sensor into a bargain basement body?
> 
> 12 fps? In an entry-level body?
> 
> Not saying it's so, but just suggesting that people shouldn't get trapped by old naming schemes.



Eh, the sensor could wind up in a few. I think its more about everything else around it that would be the delineating factors, which is why I struggling with this 12fps stuff because that's certainly a "high end" feature I seriously doubt we would see on such a bargain camera. It WOULD make more sense if this sat in the $3k-4k range however along side the R5 but more tailored to video uses whereby Canon would distinguish this perhaps by having C-Log Gamma, maybe a more robust video output like 12bit ProRes RAW, etc... (as Nikon now does with the Z7) VS the higher 48MP of the R5 without as robust video capability. Otherwise apart from the sensor, the spec rumors of the R5 and R6 are otherwise very similar and I can't see how this would be priced lower than the current RP in any universe. Again, I think it's possible these specs lists are mostly correct but are cross contaminated in terms of certain specifics that really are on one camera and not the other. Who knows. Will find out soon enough.


----------



## koenkooi (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Eh, the sensor could wind up in a few. I think its more about everything else around it that would be the delineating factors, which is why I struggling with this 12fps stuff because that's certainly a "high end" feature I seriously doubt we would see on such a bargain camera.[..]



The EOS M50 has 10fps, the M6II has 14fps. Those are $500 and $1000 cameras.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> A 20mp sensor? Canon likes to reuse sensors. Would they really put their flagship 1Dx sensor into a bargain basement body?
> 
> 12 fps? In an entry-level body?
> 
> Not saying it's so, but just suggesting that people shouldn't get trapped by old naming schemes.



Eh, the sensor could wind up in a few. I think its more about everything else around it that would be the delineating factors, which is why I struggling with this 12fps stuff because that's certainly a "high end" feature I seriously doubt we would see on such a bargain camera. It WOULD make more sense if this sat in the $3k-4k range however along side the R5 but more tailored to video uses whereby Canon would distinguish this perhaps by having C-Log Gamma, maybe a more robust video output like 12bit ProRes RAW, etc... (as Nikon now does with the Z7) VS the higher 48MP of the R5. Otherwise apart from the sensor, the spec rumors of the R5 and R6 are otherwise very similar and I can't see how this would be priced lower than the current RP in any universe.


BillB said:


> The R5 will have 2 card slots, the R6 one.


That's not enough to make the difference if this IS the bargain camera. Which as of now with what info we have, suggests strongly that it is NOT. If it IS the cinema/video camera rumored then one slot is fine as likely most users like me would prefer external recording anyway and would use the internal for backup perhaps


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> The EOS M50 has 10fps, the M6II has 14fps. Those are $500 and $1000 cameras.


Those are also APS-C (cropped) bodies... Apples and Oranges. Nothing so far suggests this is a Crop sensor. If it WAS I'm betting it would be called the R60 not the R6. Canon has traditionally given crop bodies 2 digit names (with the exception of the 7D) in which case I think Canon would call this the R7.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> That's not enough to make the difference if this IS the bargain camera. Which as of now with what info we have, suggests strongly that it is NOT.




...or the A7 III truly did scare the bejesus out of Canon to the point of pumping more horsepower into lower price points.

Z6 has IBIS and 12 fps and it's $1350
A7 III has IBIS and 10 fps and it's $1750 

A7 III has also impressively held a high line on price. Either a change in tactics from Sony or it is truly selling that well:




- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Those are also APS-C (cropped) bodies... Apples and Oranges. Nothing so far suggests this is a Crop sensor. If it WAS I'm betting it would be called the R60 not the R6. Canon has traditionally given crop bodies 2 digit names (with the exception of the 7D) in which case I think Canon would call this the R7.




+1, but koenkooi has a point on data. The M6 II moves a _ton_ of data, crop or no crop.

The surprise here is that Canon -- if specs are true -- is finally removing on the governors on its FF mechanical shutters. I howled at the moon for so many posts that Canon (either by nerfing feature-set differentiation or cost/profitability goals) thought that 7 fps was a nice enough upgrade to the 5D line when the 5D4 came out. Since that time, every competitor has been pushing higher fps with mechanica shutter in the not-1-series price points: A99 II, Z6, A7III are 12 fps, and they run the gamut price-wise.

So -- perhaps -- Canon is not going to restrict heretofore higher-end shutters to 1-series only (or they made a better/faster/more robust non-1-series shutter). Amen to that.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> ...or the A7 III truly did scare the bejesus out of Canon to the point of pumping more horsepower into lower price points.




Perhaps repackaging this another way, if Canon is okay putting out what appears to be a mirrorless 5D5 on steroids that shatters all throughput records and puts the 1DX3 in the dust (in metrics it always was the best at), I don't think a beefed up mirrorless 6D like the R6 is such a big leap at all.

I'm shocked it appears to be getting a 1DX3-like powertrain of 20x20, but it's not remotely as shocking as the R5 specs to me.

- A


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> ...or the A7 III truly did scare the bejesus out of Canon to the point of pumping more horsepower into lower price points.
> 
> Z6 has IBIS and 12 fps and it's $1350
> A7 III has IBIS and 10 fps and it's $1750
> ...



Ok but $1500 is alot more plausible than something below the RP though


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> And what's with all these leaks now for an R5 in July and an R6 in June?
> 
> Is Sony rolling out the A7 IV imminently or something? Is this a 'stay with us Canon people, the hotness is coming' sort of defensive announcement?
> 
> - A



With all the innovation in mind, Canon forgot to add a shutter button to the R5, so they will fix it in june with the R5 II


----------



## wockawocka (Jan 29, 2020)

Worth noting too, 20mp on a full frame sensor is some FAT pixels. Could be an answer to the A7s line, could be full frame 4k in camera. Usually fat pixels give a much nicer image render and may become the camera of choice for wedding togs.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Ok but $1500 is alot more plausible than something below the RP though




If the R6 is the cheaper one -- and it's not some sleeping video behemoth or gripped 1-series beast -- I think RP dies, I honestly do. It doesn't fit into an R-numbered FF portfolio. 

Keeping it around and sequeling it over time would be like the Audi dealer selling you "Here's the A7, A6, A5, A4, A3... _and the TT._" It may exist, but it does not logically belong.

- A


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> +1, but koenkooi has a point on data. The M6 II moves a _ton_ of data, crop or no crop.
> 
> The surprise here is that Canon -- if specs are true -- is finally removing on the governors on its FF mechanical shutters. I howled at the moon for so many posts that Canon (either by nerfing feature-set differentiation or cost/profitability goals) thought that 7 fps was a nice enough upgrade to the 5D line when the 5D4 came out. Since that time, every competitor has been pushing higher fps with mechanica shutter in the not-1-series price points: A99 II, Z6, A7III are 12 fps, and they run the gamut price-wise.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying those models can't. Just saying it would be very UN-Canon like to have such an insanely robust feature set in such a low priced camera. You still have to have SOME serious differences apart from just a higher res sensor (assuming both are FF) for what we would assume a $2500 to be if it is indeed a bargain camera vs the R5


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> I'm not saying those models can't. Just saying it would be very UN-Canon like to have such an insanely robust feature set in such a low priced camera. You still have to have SOME serious differences apart from just a sensor for what we would assume a $2500 to be if it is indeed a bargain camera vs the R5




Apparently (so far), resolution and bonkers video features are it. I'm guessing that R5 has different ergonomics/grip/controls as well.

But, as unfocused said, we don't know nearly as much about the R6. One added bullet point from CR Guy on the R6 about:

It's a permanently gripped body, or
It has special low light features, or
It doesn't have a viewfinder like an M6, or
It's tiny AF, like an EOS M (1) or SL2
Could dramatically change our take on its role in the platform.

- A


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> If the R6 is the cheaper one -- and it's not some sleeping video behemoth or gripped 1-series beast -- I think RP dies, I honestly do. It doesn't fit into an R-numbered FF portfolio.
> 
> Keeping it around and sequeling it over time would be like the Audi dealer selling you "Here's the A7, A6, A5, A4, A3... _and the TT._" It may exist, but it does not logically belong.
> 
> - A


No I agree the R and RP are goners. Moving past that, I still say based on recent previous rumors, I think this is more likely to turn out to be the video RF which will sit at a similar price to the R5, which bears out having the specs like framerates we keep talking on. 

Otherwise it gets priced at he $1500 range against the a7 series in which case it is NEITHER the video beast NOR the bargain level camera


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 29, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> Worth noting too, 20mp on a full frame sensor is some FAT pixels. Could be an answer to the A7s line, could be full frame 4k in camera. Usually fat pixels give a much nicer image render and may become the camera of choice for wedding togs.



We should already know how it performs, no? With 20 mpx, it seems like Canon might be mostly reusing a 1DX III sensor? And btw - I doubt, that 20mpx is enough for wedding photogs. If wedding photogs are using mostly a 5DIVs, noone's going to go down to 20, including us. 20mpx R6 might be just a complementary camera, depending upon what does it do. Actually photogs might be caught in between, as 20mpx is too low, while 45mpx might not provide enough of DR advancement over the 5DIV's 30mpx sensor. And no, wedding photogs don't need a high framerate gun.


----------



## mpb001 (Jan 29, 2020)

While I am more interested in the R5 specs, I would not discount the R6. Although it is reportedly 20 MP, it just might be a low light beast in a more affordable package.


----------



## sulla (Jan 29, 2020)

There is just no way that the 20MP sensor of the R6 can "only" do [email protected] and the 45MP sensor of the R5 can do [email protected] and both sensors can do the same 20 fps electronic. IF they make this work, then the R5 needs to be dual processor with split sensor readout or something like this, which would make the R5 rather more like an R1


----------



## padam (Jan 29, 2020)

mpb001 said:


> While I am more interested in the R5 specs, I would not discount the R6. Although it is reportedly 20 MP, it just might be a low light beast in a more affordable package.


4k60fps is a higher-end feature, which only the 20MP will have as well as full readout for video.
The higher megapixel model will have FF 4k, but probably not at 60p (although the S1R/SL2 has this) and it will be softer and the silent mode won't be nearly as usable. It is a better hybrid camera while the other one is more focused on being a better stills camera and the price difference between them won't be too big, but the 20MP one will cost a bit more.

Looking at the initial impressions on the 1DX III, the good old DSLR focusing is still better than what it can do using LiveView, and it won't do 20fps with a mechanical shutter, so it won't be quite as expensive and probably won't be 'branded' as the R-X camera (it won't need more than a single Digic X processor) but it won't be cheap either.

(unless this is complete BS, but coming out with a new sensor that will be in the 5D V as well as using the 1DX III sensor makes sense)


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 29, 2020)

Oh hell, there's a superzoom rumor now, too:









Is an RF 100-500mm lens on the way? [CR2]


Earlier today I mentioned a possible second lens being announced for the RF mount alongside the new kit lens, the RF 24-105mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM, but that I wasn



www.canonrumors.com





CR Guy must be having palpitations from this onslaught of stuff rolling in.

- A


----------



## Tom W (Jan 29, 2020)

20 megapixels - interesting. I wonder if it's old-tech, or related to the 1Dx III sensor. Or something completely new. I wouldn't have been surprised if it would have gotten the present R sensor, given it's assumed place on the totem pole.


----------



## wockawocka (Jan 29, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> We should already know how it performs, no? With 20 mpx, it seems like Canon might be mostly reusing a 1DX III sensor? And btw - I doubt, that 20mpx is enough for wedding photogs. If wedding photogs are using mostly a 5DIVs, noone's going to go down to 20, including us. 20mpx R6 might be just a complementary camera, depending upon what does it do. Actually photogs might be caught in between, as 20mpx is too low, while 45mpx might not provide enough of DR advancement over the 5DIV's 30mpx sensor. And no, wedding photogs don't need a high framerate gun.



You say that but pixels 50% bigger than the 5d4 could mean iso 12800 looks like todays 3200.

I'd be very surprised if they rehashed the 1ds3 sensor. That thing maxed out at iso 1600


----------



## Daan Stam (Jan 29, 2020)

Joules said:


> 8K is just over 33 MP resolution - in a 16:9 aspect ratio. To get a standard 3:2 ratio you need a sensor with an even higher resolution.
> 
> oh yeah sorry i was being stupid hahaha.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

padam said:


> 4k60fps is a higher-end feature, which only the 20MP will have as well as full readout for video.
> The higher megapixel model will have FF 4k, but probably not at 60p



Yeah but Craig has 4k120 in BOLD as CR3 ("treat it as fact") on the R5 with 48MP... So 4K60 would seem a given if that's correct.


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 29, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> You say that but pixels 50% bigger than the 5d4 could mean iso 12800 looks like todays 3200.
> 
> I'd be very surprised if they rehashed the 1ds3 sensor. That thing maxed out at iso 1600



50% bigger pixels compared to what? FF sensor size is given, right? So 45 mpx crammed into the same space as 30mpx of 5DIV can't provide bigger pixels. They could reduce the space between the pixels, improve surrounding electronics, etc., but that's just it.

1Ds3 sensor? That's some arcane stuff, no? I said 1DX III, not 1Ds 3


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

wockawocka said:


> I'd be very surprised if they rehashed the 1ds3 sensor. That thing maxed out at iso 1600



He said 1dX3 not 1dS3.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

And using an already perfectly suitable sensor makes complete sense as Canon can lower its costs by producing far greater volumes of it than just the 1DX3 alone would afford them to. I would suspect any new sensor (at least FF) going forward is going to have this new AA filter regardless and the on board ADC isn't changing, so the chances they are producing two different FF sensors of the exact same dimensions are highly unlikely as there would be no appreciable difference


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

Tom W said:


> 20 megapixels - interesting. I wonder if it's old-tech, or related to the 1Dx III sensor. Or something completely new. I wouldn't have been surprised if it would have gotten the present R sensor, given it's assumed place on the totem pole.


Specifically, unless Canon has a boatload of old sensors laying around, it's not an old 20mp (like the old 6D or something). Fabrications processes have been completed updated since then. If it's FF 20MP, you can bank it's the same one in the DX3


----------



## Tom W (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Specifically, unless Canon has a boatload of old sensors laying around, it's not an old 20mp (like the old 6D or something). Fabrications processes have been completed updated since then. If it's FF 20MP, you can bank it's the same one in the DX3



I know Canon does some odd things, but I'm wondering why they'd put the same sensor of their flagship DSLR into their entry-level (or near entry-level) FF mirrorless. Of course, they are in the process of revamping their lines of cameras, so the R6 may not parallel the 6D II at all.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

Tom W said:


> I know Canon does some odd things, but I'm wondering why they'd put the same sensor of their flagship DSLR into their entry-level (or near entry-level) FF mirrorless. Of course, they are in the process of revamping their lines of cameras, so the R6 may not parallel the 6D II at all.


Canon has a long history of using sensors over and over, and the sensor itself is frankly the least important major component of the 1DX line in my opinion. It's actually really the same sensor as the DX2 with an upgraded AA filter on it. Canon calls it "new" but it's otherwise the same size, readout, ADC etc... far as I can tell. The extra $3-4k to step up to the 1DX series is about way more than just a sensor.


----------



## degos (Jan 29, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> We should already know how it performs, no? With 20 mpx, it seems like Canon might be mostly reusing a 1DX III sensor?



Or the 1DX2 sensor. You know what they're like with reusing the old tech lower down the food chain.

It's still an awesome sensor though even if the 1DX3 has better DR.


----------



## unfocused (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Apparently (so far), resolution and bonkers video features are it. I'm guessing that R5 has different ergonomics/grip/controls as well.
> 
> But, as unfocused said, we don't know nearly as much about the R6. One added bullet point from CR Guy on the R6 about:
> 
> ...


Add another data point to your list of unknowns that would give us a clear signal:

It has the "sticky" subject tracking and/or AI facial recognition database that the 1Dx III has.
Lots of wishful thinking on my part and the "6" naming scheme may hold. 

It is probably too soon for an action oriented R body, but it is fun to think about. 

I'd envision a body with the 1Dx III sensor, "sticky" tracking of subjects like the 1Dx III, AI facial recognition but with a smaller database, no integrated grip, dual SD II cards, slightly smaller buffer, faster and more accurate AF Servo (This is important because, when you use the R and select autofocus points with your thumb on the touchscreen you don't have a second thumb to also activate back button autofocus. Either the servo needs to respond almost instantly for action shots or you need a combination thumb pad like on the 1Dx III).

Slower frame rate, slower memory cards, smaller buffer, lack of integrated grip would provide the needed differentiation from the 1Dx III and would be very similar to the differentiation that existed between the 1Dx and the 7DII (aside from the smaller sensor). 

The superzoom lens does make me think they will be coming out with an action oriented body.


----------



## Tom W (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Canon has a long history of using sensors over and over, and the sensor itself is frankly the least important major component of the 1DX line in my opinion. It's actually really the same sensor as the DX2 with an upgraded AA filter on it. Canon calls it "new" but it's otherwise the same size, readout, ADC etc... far as I can tell. The extra $3-4k to step up to the 1DX series is about way more than just a sensor.



If the sensor in the Mk III is the same as in the Mk II, that would basically negate any potential noise advantage at higher ISO. But people are talking about it having about a stop better noise handling (which is, of course, just talk until actual pictures show up for comparison). 

I do agree though, Canon has a habit of re-using the same sensor in many cameras. How many bodies had that 18 mpx crop sensor over a couple of year period.

Perhaps this new R6 is getting the old Mk II sensor - after all, it is fairly modern, and has good characteristics. Certainly more DR than the 6D/6DII sensors, comparable to the 5DIV or so.

Time will tell - we'll see what Canon has up its sleeve soon enough.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 29, 2020)

I find it strange that it is not clear to everyone that the jokesters who spoofed Craig into publishing the R5 “rumor” thought it would be even more hilarious if they were to see if they could get Craig to fall for another one the next day.

Now that DPR and PetaPixel have republish the rumors, the original authors must be laughing so hard they are peeing their pants.

Because the R5 specs were made up to make the prospect of Canon coming up with such a beast funny, it seems to have had another effect: a rumor like the R6 becomes less implausible.

Sure, I’d buy 2 if they were actually released, but then I’d also buy a rainbow burping unicorn if it cost less than a 1dx3.


----------



## padam (Jan 29, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> Yeah but Craig has 4k120 in BOLD as CR3 ("treat it as fact") on the R5 with 48MP... So 4K60 would seem a given if that's correct.


Until actual pictures are shown from the subject itsef, a rumor is just a rumor.
It just seems to much of a revolutionary step for me, when the R only did 720p 120fps and the 1DXIII represents the cutting edge that they can offer at this point.

The 8K that got removed was probably some kind of timelapse movie mode, maybe this is also like that but with HDR to increase dynamic range like what's available in a few of their cameras (using the 1080p60p mode and merging two exposures, maybe now it could do the merge in 4k as well)
At least if the date is correct, it won't be too far off to find out.


----------



## BillB (Jan 29, 2020)

Tom W said:


> I do agree though, Canon has a habit of re-using the same sensor in many cameras. How many bodies had that 18 mpx crop sensor over a couple of year period.


How many times has Canon reused a 1D sensor in a lower tier body? I can't recall it ever happening


----------



## Cat_Interceptor (Jan 29, 2020)

tron said:


> Are you a birder? Because I shoot birds and I do not want to use adaptors for my big white lenses. And I do not want to use EVF and lose the birds or kill the battery. I want my lenses on DSLRs!



Why do you not want to use adapters, when Canon ones work so well? I adapt my whites to a M6 II and been quite happy. 

I"m not entirely sure "MILC's are battery killers" is entirely valid anymore, not when I've gotten 2300 shots over 3 hours with my M6 II.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 29, 2020)

Cat_Interceptor said:


> Why do you not want to use adapters, when Canon ones work so well? I adapt my whites to a M6 II and been quite happy.
> 
> I"m not entirely sure "MILC's are battery killers" is entirely valid anymore, not when I've gotten 2300 shots over 3 hours with my M6 II.




Agree on both points. Canon's adapter is a mild physical annoyance, but immaterial to image quality. The batteries on mirrorless are getting to be quite good, or more properly, their energy usage is getting quite a bit better. I have extensive experience with the Panasonic S1R and the Sony A74 and A9, and those batteries leave nothing to be desired relative to a Canon 5D4.

It's the finder that is either adequate or not. The best newest ones are just about indistinguishable from real life. The S1R's finder made me forget it was a screen. Sony, oddly, has been lagging in installing the latest screen tech in its cameras, though. Odd because they're actually the manufacturer of the good ones.


----------



## Deleted member 68328 (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> So say you. RP lacks IBIS and sure as hell can't pop 12 / 20 fps.
> 
> R5 feels like the 5D5.
> R6 feels like the 6D3.
> ...


Hope so. They will not be missed.

The huge MP could therefore be a R5 S.


----------



## Treyarnon (Jan 29, 2020)

Wow, with the R5 and and R6, its like Christmas in Canon rumors land!

And not long to wait to see if any of this is true  

Assuming these cameras are real as rumored (Big IF - but just playing with the rumor), This R6 makes a lot of sense - take the body from the R5 and the sensor from the DX3 and maximize the returns on R+D.

My guess is that we will see the R5 priced at the similar level as the 5D4, D850, A7R4, Z7 etc - in other words the £3000 to £3500 range.

I would also guess that this R6, will be more mid tier, and priced around the A73, Z6 and current R price range (£2000 to £2500).

That would provide a nice little range with the RP continuing along at the £1000-£1200 'entry level' price point.

For me, the biggest questions are - will see a 5D5 based on the R5?

And if the R5 really is 45MP, is there really a need for another higher resolution body above? I would guess that the existance of the R5 means that we will not see a 'high resolution monster' body for a couple of years if at all.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Jan 29, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> If the R6 is the cheaper one -- and it's not some sleeping video behemoth or gripped 1-series beast -- I think RP dies, I honestly do. It doesn't fit into an R-numbered FF portfolio.
> 
> Keeping it around and sequeling it over time would be like the Audi dealer selling you "Here's the A7, A6, A5, A4, A3... _and the TT._" It may exist, but it does not logically belong.
> 
> - A


It COULD still exist. Canon could use it as a way to finish selling off left over 'bits' at cost price after the higher tier models are upgraded. That way they could keep it as the very cheap entry level full frame model with basically no RnD costs and with only the need to recoup costs rather than make a big profit on the parts.


----------



## jjesp (Jan 29, 2020)

Sounds interesting. But with the new RF mount and those big chunky RF lenses, the idea of the whole R series is a bit strange. Why make a mirrorless line where the lenses are 1.5 times bigger that the old EF system (and two times as expensive). Simply don't get that. If Canon does not come up with some good and small primes in the 28-50mm range, I can't see any use for the R line besides well paid portrait and studio photographers.


----------



## wockawocka (Jan 29, 2020)

-pekr- said:


> 50% bigger pixels compared to what? FF sensor size is given, right? So 45 mpx crammed into the same space as 30mpx of 5DIV can't provide bigger pixels. They could reduce the space between the pixels, improve surrounding electronics, etc., but that's just it.
> 
> 1Ds3 sensor? That's some arcane stuff, no? I said 1DX III, not 1Ds 3



My bad on the 1dx 1ds3 lol. 

50% bigger pixels than the 5d4 because you'd be going from 30mp to 20mp on the same sized sensor. Bigger t pixels, bigger light wells, better data capture.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

unfocused said:


> Add another data point to your list of unknowns that would give us a clear signal:
> 
> It has the "sticky" subject tracking and/or AI facial recognition database that the 1Dx III has.
> Lots of wishful thinking on my part and the "6" naming scheme may hold.
> ...


Except the rumored video specs (given the codecs Canon has to this point favored) would suggest a faster card is needed. [email protected] needs massive data rates and one reason the DX2 uses CFast2.0. Now we have CFExpress on the DX3. The R5 seems no doubt we are looking at the same card with a second slot for SD or CFast perhaps. Unless of course Canon will make those high frame rates external only... then we could/would see dual SD or something like that where the internal write speed is irrelevant


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

degos said:


> Or the 1DX2 sensor. You know what they're like with reusing the old tech lower down the food chain.
> 
> It's still an awesome sensor though even if the 1DX3 has better DR.


Nah... they aren't gonna backtrack on something like the new AA filter. That is here to stay as that is now part of the fabrication process making THAT particular sized sensor now.


----------



## mangobutter (Jan 29, 2020)

I'd buy the R6 in a heart beat @ 20mp since that implies it would smoke even the R1 in low light. Could be canon's best low light camera yet.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

mangobutter said:


> I'd buy the R6 in a heart beat @ 20mp since that implies it would smoke even the R1 in low light. Could be canon's best low light camera yet.



low light performance should be the same as DX3 which appears to be about 1 stop Better than previous version according to the early pre-prod reviews


----------



## AndyN (Jan 29, 2020)

jjesp said:


> Sounds interesting. But with the new RF mount and those big chunky RF lenses, the idea of the whole R series is a bit strange. Why make a mirrorless line where the lenses are 1.5 times bigger that the old EF system (and two times as expensive). Simply don't get that. If Canon does not come up with some good and small primes in the 28-50mm range, I can't see any use for the R line besides well paid portrait and studio photographers.



Fairly sure they will as the RF 35mm f/1.8 is a great offering at it's price range with both IS and Macro capabilities. With this new entry level release there will most likely be a wave of more "affordable" RF macros and zooms to back it up.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

Treyarnon said:


> My guess is that we will see the R5 priced at the similar level as the 5D4, D850, A7R4, Z7 etc - in other words the £3000 to £3500 range.
> 
> I would also guess that this R6, will be more mid tier, and priced around the A73, Z6 and current R price range (£2000 to £2500)
> 
> ...



BANK on the following:

R5 is a 5D replacement body and will be priced accordingly.
5D5 will happen and will be basically an EF mount R5 DSLR (this is Canons biggest market and they aren't cutting them off from EF yet)
R6 pricing depends entirely on what it's being built for, damn the a7SII. The a7sIII will be up in the $3k range and so will Canon's video model
The 83MP sensor R model WILL happen and will happen this year. 
Canon is in full on "WHATS UP YA'LL?!?!" mode this year it seems.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 29, 2020)

If you need a visual of Canon's 2020 roadmap and press release schedule to clarify... here:


----------



## Famateur (Jan 30, 2020)

These are intriguing rumors! Some of my thoughts to add to the mix:


*Name -- *If it truly will be called the R6, I think it's 95% likely that it's intended to fill the RF-equivalent slot of what the 6D is in the EF world. More precisely, it would fill the entry-level role for the RF mount. This also leads me to agree with the probability that the RP is a one-off.


*Sensor --* Using a 20MP sensor would point to re-using the 1DXIII sensor, which I think could be likely. It makes sense in terms of maximizing economies of scale in production. The original 6D also received a splendid sensor (some considered better than its 5D sibling at the time). Image quality alone was not held back then, and I see no reason why it would be held back now. I see no shortage of other ways the camera can be nerfed to maintain product position.

That said, it would be disappointing-but-possible that the 20MP sensor could be reused from 6DI. While I think it's unlikely, it would be a differentiation counterpoint to the FPS and other rumored features. Remember how long the 18MP crop sensor persisted in Canon models? :O


*Performance --* While many are saying the rumored specs are just too good for an "entry-level" RF MILC, when compared against the price/performance of similar Sony and Nikon MILCs, it doesn't seem crazy to me -- especially if the RP fades away without an encore. Comparing processing throughput to high-end bodies is also useless because...M6II.

Personally, I'm salivating at the possibility of the R5 (along with probably a gazillion others). If it has a fully articulating screen, and 5D-level performance, I don't really care how much it will cost. I will save for it. And love it. 

Even if these rumors turn out to be total codswallop, just reading them with CR2.5 and CR3 attached is satisfyingly exciting and will have been totally worth it.


----------



## cullen171 (Jan 30, 2020)

Who cares what their names, designations are R-R2 RS R6...As long as they have the goods inside.


----------



## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

cullen171 said:


> Who cares what their names, designations are R-R2 RS R6...As long as they have the goods inside.


It matters to those who care to hypothesize and deduce based upon patterns of Canon's history and nomenclature. Naming scheme tell.


----------



## Czardoom (Jan 30, 2020)

jjesp said:


> Sounds interesting. But with the new RF mount and those big chunky RF lenses, the idea of the whole R series is a bit strange. Why make a mirrorless line where the lenses are 1.5 times bigger that the old EF system (and two times as expensive). Simply don't get that. If Canon does not come up with some good and small primes in the 28-50mm range, I can't see any use for the R line besides well paid portrait and studio photographers.


Even a quick internet search will reveal your statement about size and price is rubbish. The equivalent lenses that have been made so far for the RF mount are all in the same ballpark as the EF lenses. Some are smaller, some slightly bigger, some almost exactly the same. The 24-105mm is exactly the same price, the RF 24-70 /2.8 has the same price at introduction that the EF model did in 2012, the RF 70-200 f/2.8 is much smaller and lighter.


----------



## reef58 (Jan 30, 2020)

LensFungus said:


> If this camera costs less than the Canon EOS RP in the beginning it will be below the EOS RP no matter how good the specs are. An upcoming Canon EOS RP Mark II will have better specs than this, that's it.
> 
> Despite giving IBIS and [email protected] Canon has some options to release this camera for less money than the RP:
> Less buttons, just one dial, no viewfinder, cheaper material for the body, no grip, screen with less resolution than other cameras, buttons less customizable, less menu options, 4k crop, less ports, no dual pixel af in 4k...



Good grief is that still a camera? Perhaps they can let the buyers solder their own circuit boards to. That would certainly save some cash.


----------



## slclick (Jan 30, 2020)

reef58 said:


> Good grief is that still a camera? Perhaps they can let the buyers solder their own circuit boards to. That would certainly save some cash.


Yes, it's called a Ricoh GR, lol.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

AndyN said:


> Fairly sure they will as the RF 35mm f/1.8 is a great offering at it's price range with both IS and Macro capabilities. With this new entry level release there will most likely be a wave of more "affordable" RF macros and zooms to back it up.




+1. This is correct on more affordable lenses. You don't sell a $999 body and force new users to buy $2k+ lenses. Less expensive RF lenses are coming.

_Whether other RF non-L primes all get the slick 1:2 macro action of the RF 35 is another matter._ Shorter FL macro primes tend to be externally focusing and get a lot longer as you approach MFD (I presume) to keep it relatively compact when you aren't shooting macro:



Some folks (like myself) want a robust internally focusing prime. I recognize RF 35 is not as fragile as my beloved EF 50 f/1.4, but if a new not enormous/heavy 50 is coming, I'd prefer it to be a rock solid internally focusing design.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

cullen171 said:


> Who cares what their names, designations are R-R2 RS R6...As long as they have the goods inside.




As a photographer: I take your point.

As a person that IRL builds systems of products to be intuitive and work well together -- which includes painstaking development of product branding / nomenclature: Please don't ruin this moment for me.  

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

Czardoom said:


> Even a quick internet search will reveal your statement about size and price is rubbish. The equivalent lenses that have been made so far for the RF mount are all in the same ballpark as the EF lenses. Some are smaller, some slightly bigger, some almost exactly the same. The 24-105mm is exactly the same price, the RF 24-70 /2.8 has the same price at introduction that the EF model did in 2012, the RF 70-200 f/2.8 is much smaller and lighter.




If you read jjesp's statement factually as 'RF lenses are bigger than EF lenses', it falls apart, yes.

But if you read his statement that Canon is not leaning into building a compact system -- which is how I read it -- jjesp would be correct. 

Canon has not prioritized building great small f/2 primes and f/4 zooms for RF. Though that saddens me (I would love those things), I understand why Canon is leading with a lot of megasexy big glass:

Draws existing Canon users into the platform in general. #1 priority as we are the largest chunk of photographers and the easiest sale.
Dangles stuff the competition doesn't have to draw them in. New users to Canon need glass.
Dangles stuff _EF_ doesn't have to get people already in the fold to buy pricey new glass rather than adapting their current stuff.
Leading with small and compact was Sony's entrance to the market and I think it's pretty clear that approeach didn't win the hearts of performance enthusiasts + pros -- everyone just kept asking for big pro glass. Based on this, Canon _may_ have deprioritized small & light and decided to focus on migration of existing users.
We'll get smaller RF lenses. It's a certainty. But it's clearly not a high priority right now.

- A


----------



## dwarven (Jan 30, 2020)

A 20MP, IBIS, 12fps full frame in an EOS RP sized body and I'd buy one for myself, my wife, my hamster, and my parrot.


----------



## -pekr- (Jan 30, 2020)

Famateur said:


> These are intriguing rumors! Some of my thoughts to add to the mix:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is imo zero chance Canon would use something like 6DI sensor, that just seems completly unlikely. It's not about the mpx only, it's about the ability of fast read-out. All cameras are imo going to receive new sensors. We've been there with the R and RP already and Canon seems to be scrapping those lines as a first of a kind experiment.

However - if the new R6 is supposed to be a video centric camera, well then. But if they think of that more as a 6D III one, I am not sure how ppl will accept going down from 26mpx to 20 mpx, being it their main camera, and not just their supplement body to R5, for the DR sake. I would not accept that.


----------



## ved112dei (Jan 30, 2020)

R6 with 20mp is fine if [email protected] crop won't be more than 1.3* and $1500-2000, C-Log, 10 bit


----------



## navastronia (Jan 30, 2020)

The more I think about it (R-mount camera series), the more I want Canon to offer:

1) a low-end full-frame (RP)
2) a workhorse full-frame (R5)
3) a video-oriented full-frame (a7s competitor, i.e., the camera possibly described in this thread)
4) a high MP full-frame (Rs)
5) a speed/sports behemoth (R1)

And, as for APS-C, let it continue in the M line and in the EF bodies, like the Rebels and 90D. If people stop buying them, so be it - full steam ahead on full-frame.


----------



## Pape (Jan 30, 2020)

Maybe this is camera what canon wants birdlers use, could come with 100-500 f8 and 1,4x converter 
consumer R1
putting 6 and 7 line together


----------



## Thorad (Jan 30, 2020)

So, this table is coming from my head (and some of the infos from these rumors). What you guys think?
Crazy? So..so..? Possible?


----------



## Deleted member 381342 (Jan 30, 2020)

Thorad said:


> So, this table is coming from my head (and some of the infos from these rumors). What you guys think?
> Crazy? So..so..? Possible?
> View attachment 188420



I think you should expect the R1 to have 20mp for the same reasons the prior 3 models have hovered around that mark. And consider the 7d might become the full frame R6(Especially as a baby 1Dx sharing the sensor) with the RS continuing to happily sail along as the 6D II successor.


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

Thorad said:


> So, this table is coming from my head (and some of the infos from these rumors). What you guys think?
> Crazy? So..so..? Possible?
> View attachment 188420



Not bad! First four lines are more or less where I am, but R3 could be a host of names: R2, R3, R4, R5S, etc. and Canon may not want the high res to be positioned as higher prestige than the R5 with this new system. And the R1 will be a mirrorless 1DX3 one would think -- lower res (possibly the same 20 MP sensor).

I see the last two lines dying off -- IBIS will become the standard expectation, those are confusing names vs. other models, etc.

R7 may never happen, but if it did, it might be a crop sensor in there.

Also, 5D4 and 5DS never had 2x cards -- they were 1 + 1. Think they'll make the jump with the mirrorless model?

- A


----------



## Thorad (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Not bad! First four lines are more or less where I am, but R3 could be a host of names: R2, R3, R4, R5S, etc. and Canon may not want the high res to be positioned as higher prestige than the R5 with this new system. And the R1 will be a mirrorless 1DX3 one would think -- lower res (possibly the same 20 MP sensor).


This prestige thing of the 5D makes sense. *Maybe *they swap positions so (R3 beeing the new 5D and R5 beeing the high megapixel..)



> I see the last two lines dying off -- IBIS will become the standard expectation, those are confusing names vs. other models, etc.


Yeh, i think they are gone. Thats why i put them in orange.




> R7 may never happen, but if it did, it might be a crop sensor in there.


I would like to see a R7 FF, low res high fps (of course, not the R1 level)...



> Also, 5D4 and 5DS never had 2x cards -- they were 1 + 1. Think they'll make the jump with the mirrorless model?
> 
> - A


I think so, because sony (the high megapixel one) has Dual Slot: SD/SDHC/SDXC (UHS-II). So, once it will not have high fps for shooting, i think it makes sense.


----------



## Thorad (Jan 30, 2020)

Codebunny said:


> I think you should expect the R1 to have 20mp for the same reasons the prior 3 models have hovered around that mark. And consider the 7d might become the full frame R6(Especially as a baby 1Dx sharing the sensor) with the RS continuing to happily sail along as the 6D II successor.


Yeh, makes sene. Maybe a 24mp, so it's more like the A9ii (witch costs now $4.500). I dont think they will stick with 20mp forever..


----------



## lawny13 (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> So say you. RP lacks IBIS and sure as hell can't pop 12 / 20 fps.
> 
> R5 feels like the 5D5.
> R6 feels like the 6D3.
> ...




Yep... many including me saw the RP and R as just stop gap cameras. Simply digital backs for those RF lenses. Obviously (if all this is true) canon had the lens ready go good way before they were there with the bodies. I wouldn't be surprised if the bodies of the RP and R remain the same (size wise) which would go inline that they didn't have the internals ready. And they used the R as a test for some of their newer things. Like the mode button, and MFN bar.


----------



## Pape (Jan 30, 2020)

How about taking 7d away and give more sporty R6 and RF 700mm f8 DO ,fair compensation ?


----------



## reefroamer (Jan 30, 2020)

AndyN said:


> Fairly sure they will as the RF 35mm f/1.8 is a great offering at it's price range with both IS and Macro capabilities. With this new entry level release there will most likely be a wave of more "affordable" RF macros and zooms to back it up.


There is only so much Canon can shove out the door in a short time. I think they’ve done an amazing job in the last 15 months. Clearly, they prioritized the high-end glass. But I’m sure we’ll see much more affordable RF kit zoom lenses soon, especially to drive sales of the lower end R bodies. No question they can do these lenses, just a matter of what comes first. The cheap kits are a gateway drug to the full R system.


----------



## Viggo (Jan 30, 2020)

Give me a FAST shutter respons (unlike the R) and 20 mp and upgraded AF new sensor at 12 fps in a smaller than 1-series body and I’m jumping all over it.


----------



## koenkooi (Jan 30, 2020)

lawny13 said:


> Yep... many including me saw the RP and R as just stop gap cameras. Simply digital backs for those RF lenses. Obviously (if all this is true) canon had the lens ready go good way before they were there with the bodies. I wouldn't be surprised if the bodies of the RP and R remain the same (size wise) which would go inline that they didn't have the internals ready. And they used the R as a test for some of their newer things. Like the mode button, and MFN bar.



Both the R and RP give me the feeling of being made out of components that they had lying around already. The sensor, digic and battery all come from existing cameras. Imagine marketing asking "When is this fancy new stuff coming out?" "2020" and then asking "If you take old parts, can you hit x-mas 2018?"


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

Thorad said:


> Yeh, makes sene. Maybe a 24mp, so it's more like the A9ii (witch costs now $4.500). I dont think they will stick with 20mp forever..




I don't see 1-series bodies increasing res over time just because they feel they have to. I think pro sports / reportage folks have the glass they need to fill the frame. So cropping isn't a big ask for them. 

1D4 = 16 MP (2009)
1DX1 = 18 MP (2012)
1DX2 = 20 MP (2016)
1DX3 = 20 MP (2020)

Now compare any other product line of Canon's over an long time period -- Rebels, XXD, 5D, 6D, etc. -- and see what happened to the res on those. Completely different story.

And with the 1DX3, *surely* Canon asked them to choose Hamburger A vs. Hamburger B where more resolution and less fps was on the table. That they landed on 20 MP and higher FPS is a tell of what that camp of shooters values the most.

Put another way, it would be relatively easy for them to drop a higher res sensor (say 24 like you said) into the 1DX3 and not have to touch the mirrorbox or shutter designs and keep clipping away at 1DX2 speeds. _That they didn't _speaks volumes about what those shooters want.

- A


----------



## ahsanford (Jan 30, 2020)

koenkooi said:


> Both the R and RP give me the feeling of being made out of components that they had lying around already. The sensor, digic and battery all come from existing cameras. Imagine marketing asking "When is this fancy new stuff coming out?" "2020" and then asking "If you take old parts, can you hit x-mas 2018?"




Kind of -- I'm sure there were time pressures. But I saw EOS R/RP more as a batting practice platform of:

What is the ergonomic setup of the future. Is touch-sensitivity, touchscreens, etc. truly going to change the game?
What is the right size of FF body? What doesn't make the Ark (controls-wise) if it gets constrained for real estate?
Dialing in the FBW lens handling future -- control rings, programmability, proprioceptive/haptic/tactile sort of feedback when you only have FBW lenses, etc.
Those three things above were not banged out or phoned in. They were ruthlessly tortured and evaluated and (for whatever reason) EOS R was the shooting experience they wanted to lead with.

So I see EOS R as an enthusiast sneak peak / first viewing of Canon's future. A driveable concept car, if you will. Based on this experience, I'm guessing low-end RF bodies will feel more EOS R/RP like (touch touch touch) and higher-end RF bodies will be bigger and some EF button/wheel creature comforts may return -- just in time for their beefier specs and internals to shine.

- A


----------



## BroncosFan (Jan 30, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Hopefully the mega pixel count is incorrect. I’d like to see it a bit higher than that. I’m hoping to replace my Canon 7D with something like this.


----------



## gouldopfl (Jan 30, 2020)

Southstorm said:


> Can't believe I'm first to comment...
> 
> Times are good!!!


Now Canon needs to open up the TF mount specifications to Tamron and Sigma like Sony has. The current RF glass is too expe


Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


Now Canon needs to open up the RF mount specs like Sony did so 3rd party lens makers don't have to reverse engineer. Canon's RF glass is too expensive for the hobbyist or casual user, yet they want to pull back some users who moved to Sony


----------



## Ozarker (Jan 30, 2020)

gouldopfl said:


> Now Canon needs to open up the TF mount specifications to Tamron and Sigma like Sony has. The current RF glass is too expe
> 
> Now Canon needs to open up the RF mount specs like Sony did so 3rd party lens makers don't have to reverse engineer. Canon's RF glass is too expensive for the hobbyist or casual user, yet they want to pull back some users who moved to Sony


Tamron has said they are working on lenses for the Canon RF mount and Nikon Z. I'm sure Sigma is doing the same. I see no reason why Canon should help competitors make a competing product. It's obvious (to me anyway) that Canon isn't filing patent infringement lawsuits against these manufacturers for copying the mount. That's help enough, in my opinion.


----------



## HikeBike (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> So follow my very loose tea leaf assembly here. If an R5 is coming with the specs from the rumor, and this R6 is happening...
> 
> ...


I think you're spot on. I also suspect the 90D and Rebel lines will get killed off, with the M line being what it is.


----------



## mangobutter (Jan 30, 2020)

So if they can make a $999 or less smaller FF body, i'm game. i don't need fast FPS, weather resistance. For that I have my XT3.

Love my RP but the only gripe I have is the small battery. That should at least be using the EOS R battery. just make the grip bigger. maybe next time around.

Loved the R when I owned it but it was still a tad too big. 

if Canon made a small and light RF 20mm 2.8 (Doesn't even need IS) that would be really great.


----------



## mangobutter (Jan 30, 2020)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Tamron has said they are working on lenses for the Canon RF mount and Nikon Z. I'm sure Sigma is doing the same. I see no reason why Canon should help competitors make a competing product. It's obvious (to me anyway) that Canon isn't filing patent infringement lawsuits against these manufacturers for copying the mount. That's help enough, in my opinion.



Yeah Canon is still the giant. They don't need to open up their mount. Other brands need to.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 30, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> I don't see 1-series bodies increasing res over time just because they feel they have to. I think pro sports / reportage folks have the glass they need to fill the frame. So cropping isn't a big ask for them.
> 
> 1D4 = 16 MP (2009)
> 1DX1 = 18 MP (2012)
> ...



Couple things on this I've been pondering. It's true, the people who by-in-large REALLY use these cameras don't really care about a huge MP bump. In order to give it a good refresh though, Canon elected to create a new AA filter they claim presents the sharpness equivalent of 24MP under the older AA filter. Ok. Fine. Again, they aren't necessarily targeting 1DX2 people to upgrade. There are still a lot of happy 1DX users out there (Where y'at Neuro?! ;-)). And the AF improvements alone are what those guys really really want and now they have it in the DX3. Secondly, given all this new info in the last 2-3 days, it really isn't surprising AT ALL now they didn't bump it higher as clearly Canon has been busy as hell with it's real focus on this new RF line with a 45MP sensor and still to come 83MP sensor we've heard tales of... and 20MP is now a proven formula for Canon on the video specs given what else we know of the 1DX2 and now 1DX3. And that same sensor can be produced in MUCH greater quantities now than just the DX3, which clearly Canon had in mind all along in their planning. I dont recall if Canon used the prior 20MP DX2 sensor in any other body. Maybe the 6D2?? Cant recall.


----------



## jd7 (Jan 30, 2020)

Famateur said:


> These are intriguing rumors! Some of my thoughts to add to the mix:
> 
> 
> *Name -- *If it truly will be called the R6, I think it's 95% likely that it's intended to fill the RF-equivalent slot of what the 6D is in the EF world. More precisely, it would fill the entry-level role for the RF mount. This also leads me to agree with the probability that the RP is a one-off.
> ...


Given the rumoured specs on the R5, and Canon's usual naming scheme having lower numbers indicating a camera (at least broadly) higher up the tree, it does seem like the R6 is likely to be the mirrorless 6D level camera, with the R5 being something like the 5D level camera. However, if that's right, I'm a bit surprised the R5's sensor resolution is as much as 45 MP. It seems like a lot of pixels for a camera meant to be a great all-rounder, but maybe I'm wrong about that in this day and age? And, if the R6 is meant to be the 6D level equivalent, I'm surprised its sensor resolution is as low 20 MP. As a 6D II owner, I don't like the idea of going back to 20 MP from 26 MP even if I was otherwise interested in the R6. The 30 MP of the EOS R seems more appealing, but then I'd miss out on the other things the R6 looks like it will bring to the table over the R. And I would have thought many EOS R owners, with their 30 MP sensors, would similarly not be keen on dropping back to 20 MP, leaving them deciding to pay up for the R5 or stick with their R.

Also, if the R6 specs are correct, it doesn't sound like a camera which would be priced like an RP even if it can be made as small as an RP. And if it is as small as an RP, I question whether it would really fit as the mirrorless 6D level camera. As much as I tend towards smaller cameras, that would seem just too small. Given Canon's usual naming scheme for cameras, I do think it sounds like we won't get an EOS R mark II, with the EOS R making way for EOS Rx cameras. However, particularly if Canon doesn't plan to release an APS-C RF mount camera, perhaps the RP line will continue as something similar to the EOS 100D/200D line?

Obviously there is a lot we don't know yet even if the rumours are true, eg ergonomics, AF performance, battery life, etc, so we will have to see in due course. Maybe the new sensors will perform so well that the idea of going back to 20 MP from 26 MP or 30 MP won't seem a big deal. At least for now though, I feel confused about where the R6 really fits in. Maybe it's targeted at videographers more than stills shooters, and it doesn't really have an equivalent in Canon's DSLR lineup?

(BTW I've printed as large as 45' x 30' from my old Canon 6D and I'm happy with how those have come up, so I would agree 20 MP really is enough for many, perhaps most, purposes. However, I certainly wouldn't have been unhappy to have had a bit more resolution for those prints - and of course more MP does help with flexibility to crop.)


----------



## Foa2020 (Jan 30, 2020)

Any news on video bit depth / color sampling? Nobody seems to be asking about that either. Did I miss something?


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

Foa2020 said:


> Any news on video bit depth / color sampling? Nobody seems to be asking about that either. Did I miss something?


No need to guess. Canon has already pegged this at least at 10bit422 CLog out over HDMI to externals based on the EOS R and the 1DX3. Expect at least that on these new ones.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

jd7 said:


> Given the rumoured specs on the R5, and Canon's usual naming scheme having lower numbers indicating a camera (at least broadly) higher up the tree, it does seem like the R6 is likely to be the mirrorless 6D level camera, with the R5 being something like the 5D level camera. However, if that's right, I'm a bit surprised the R5's sensor resolution is as much as 45 MP. It seems like a lot of pixels for a camera meant to be a great all-rounder, but maybe I'm wrong about that in this day and age? And, if the R6 is meant to be the 6D level equivalent, I'm surprised its sensor resolution is as low 20 MP. As a 6D II owner, I don't like the idea of going back to 20 MP from 26 MP even if I was otherwise interested in the R6. The 30 MP of the EOS R seems more appealing, but then I'd miss out on the other things the R6 looks like it will bring to the table over the R. And I would have thought many EOS R owners, with their 30 MP sensors, would similarly not be keen on dropping back to 20 MP, leaving them deciding to pay up for the R5 or stick with their R.
> 
> Also, if the R6 specs are correct, it doesn't sound like a camera which would be priced like an RP even if it can be made as small as an RP. And if it is as small as an RP, I question whether it would really fit as the mirrorless 6D level camera. As much as I tend towards smaller cameras, that would seem just too small. Given Canon's usual naming scheme for cameras, I do think it sounds like we won't get an EOS R mark II, with the EOS R making way for EOS Rx cameras. However, particularly if Canon doesn't plan to release an APS-C RF mount camera, perhaps the RP line will continue as something similar to the EOS 100D/200D line?
> 
> ...



Given the name R6, any of us would be forgiven for thinking it a 6D replacement. It might be. It might not. But as there has been much discussion already about pricing or where it would sit in the line, it seems highly unlikely this would be a RP successor under $999. The usage of the1DX3 sensor along with the few rumored video specs and the previous rumors about Canon making a challenger to the a7s .... well it could be this one. Regardless, it seems more like a $1500 model than $899. Hopefully we know everything by CP+


----------



## Buck (Jan 31, 2020)

develop a body for astro and call it R2D2. just think of the marketing possibilities.


----------



## Foa2020 (Jan 31, 2020)

PureClassA said:


> No need to guess. Canon has already pegged this at least at 10bit422 CLog out over HDMI to externals based on the EOS R and the 1DX3. Expect at least that on these new ones.


No doubt about that. But internal vs external is a big difference to me and it is very quiet with respect to that. Anyway, we will know in a couple of weeks whether the choice for a new hybrid has become easy or not


----------



## zonoskar (Jan 31, 2020)

Buck said:


> develop a body for astro and call it R2D2. just think of the marketing possibilities.


Or the lawsuits from Disney.


----------



## PureClassA (Jan 31, 2020)

Foa2020 said:


> No doubt about that. But internal vs external is a big difference to me and it is very quiet with respect to that. Anyway, we will know in a couple of weeks whether the choice for a new hybrid has become easy or not



eh... i guess i dont care about the internal recording. I never use it on mine. Im sure it will be the clunky codec we’ve seen before. Great for still frame capture, garbage for video editing unless you put it through media encoder first. But codecs are not just a Canon problem. Thats every one’s internal codec. They all suck for one reason or another so far as Im concerned . Give me ProRes all day


----------



## djack41 (Jan 31, 2020)

tron said:


> Are you a birder? Because I shoot birds and I do not want to use adaptors for my big white lenses. And I do not want to use EVF and lose the birds or kill the battery. I want my lenses on DSLRs!


I shoot birds. EVF can offer advantages vs OVF. Hopefully, Canon's new EVF will have a fast refresh rate.


----------



## tron (Feb 1, 2020)

djack41 said:


> I shoot birds. EVF can offer advantages vs OVF. Hopefully, Canon's new EVF will have a fast refresh rate.


Advantages like almost no power consumption or relaxed realtime viewing? I do not think so. YMMV.


----------



## Dexter75 (Feb 1, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> Sure it could. Tell every 6D2 owner that their new camera will come with all of the following upgrades:
> 
> IBIS
> A proper on-chip ADC sensor (one can only hope that wrong is righted)
> ...



No way Canon delivers a camera with those specs for $600 less than the R was lol.this is going to be close to $3k with the R5 coming close to $4k.


----------



## Pape (Feb 1, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> No way Canon delivers a camera with those specs for $600 less than the R was lol.this is going to be close to $3k with the R5 coming close to $4k.


You seen nothing yet ,wait untill they sell RR (rebel) with nearly same specs for 500$


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2020)

Dexter75 said:


> No way Canon delivers a camera with those specs for $600 less than the R was lol.this is going to be close to $3k with the R5 coming close to $4k.



Well we dont really have enough info on the R6 yet to know for sure. We are presuming it is FF (same sensor as DX3). It could be a crop. It doesn't seem likely that it is, but again, we dont know for sure. If it is FF then it depends what Canon has built it to do. 4K60 capability akin to the DX3 would seem to suggest it could be their more video centric model that has been rumored. That wouldn't suggest a lower end model, but a model that would sit along side an R5 in similar price ($3500) but with a feature set for another purpose. They could implement DPAF in 4K60 FF for example where as the R5 will not have it. They could also put in a nicer mic preamp. Zebras. False color. All sorts of video features not yet seen in a MILC body from Canon. You still won't get quite the sharpness and DR in C Log you can get with the C200 for example, but it will be an excellent B camera or even A camera in smaller productions. This is what Sony did with the A7s line and it worked out very well for them complimenting their F line cinema bodies. Again, PURE speculation right now, but Canon has indicated they are making more specialized cameras going forward. And with the A73 perhaps arriving this year, all the more reason to get ahead of the game.

Regardless, we agree that whatever this camera is, those specs dont seem to suggest a camera even cheaper than the RP. No way. (unless again, it turns out to be crop). And there hasn't been any news I recall that canon was producing a $1500 6D type replacement this year. We knew we would have a High MP body (yet to be announced), what looks to be a 5D replacement (R5), and a lower MP camera to rival the Sony a7S (maybe this R6). And the a7S2 was a $2500 camera new a few years ago and folks expect the a7s3 to be at least that if not $3k. Feeling like this may be our R6. And the EOS R will drop down and fill the $1500 range for now, and the RP will stay at $899 for now. Again, all speculation, but seems a reasonable roadmap when taking into account what we know Canon has hinted at


----------



## researcher (Feb 1, 2020)

OK, so this looks like an entry level model that's not APSC. Segmentation is good.
Question: how desirable is global shutter as a feature for video - game changer or just nice?
If the new 45MP RS/R5 whatever can purportedly do 8K 30/fps, is the CPU capacity possibly there to do global shutter on a 20MP sensor, or is it a totally different signal process?


----------



## Joules (Feb 1, 2020)

researcher said:


> OK, so this looks like an entry level model that's not APSC. Segmentation is good.
> Question: how desirable is global shutter as a feature for video - game changer or just nice?
> If the new 45MP RS/R5 whatever can purportedly do 8K 30/fps, is the CPU capacity possibly there to do global shutter on a 20MP sensor, or is it a totally different signal process?


The global shutter patents we've seen from Canon indicated that such a technology would result in lower DR than the current designs if I remember correctly. Especially with the ability to record RAW video now, sacrificing DR might not even be in the interest of many video makers, but there certainly are folks who shoot enough motion to appreciate a global shutter - that's not a property of the processor though, the sensor has to be designed for it.

Interesting idea nonetheless - the notion of a video specific model like an A7S seems a bit weird when a stills monster like the R5 can actually deliver top end video as well. A global shutter would be a difference that could make sense jn such a version.


----------



## Gloads (Feb 1, 2020)

Maybe there are really two new R bodies; one for still and video resolution (R5) and one for speed and AF (R6). The R6 guts could end up in an R1 as they are likely from the 1DX3, but they would probably wait for big RF glass. By the end of the year it might look like this;

RP; Cost reduced to $700, entry body
R; Cost reduced to $1,400, backup body
R6; $2,400?, Prosumer sports body
R5; $3,500, Studio, landscape, field body (not sure if 8k w/o AF)
R1; $4,500, R6 in 1D body + features?


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

Oh snap R6 specs are CR3 now.


----------



## ahsanford (Feb 1, 2020)

A thread worth reading -- drill down to replies and sub-thread below each reply:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223707838570213377
Straight from CR Guy's keyboard:

R6 > RP for position in the portfolio and will therefore cost more
*There will never be another 6D (!)*
R6 is aimed at the A7S line (and perhaps isn't in a mirrorless 6D sort of slot in the portfolio)
- A


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


So we are at now at CR3 now on this as of today?! Well well... do tell us more Good Sir ....


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 1, 2020)

[QUOTE="ahsanford, post: 813771, member:

R6 is aimed at the A7S line (and perhaps isn't in a mirrorless 6D sort of slot in the portfolio)
- A
[/QUOTE]

As I suspected.... bring. That. On. and screw May. Give me a CP+ announcement damnit


----------



## Kit. (Feb 1, 2020)

Joules said:


> The global shutter patents we've seen from Canon indicated that such a technology would result in lower DR than the current designs if I remember correctly.


Global shutter requires twice as large capacitance per pixel to handle the same amount of photoelectrons as rolling shutter. Or, with the same capacitance per pixel, it can only handle half the amount of photoelectrons.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 2, 2020)

Tom W said:


> How many bodies had that 18 mpx crop sensor over a couple of year period.



Couple of years?
Try from 2009 (7D) all the way to 2018 when the T7/2000D replaced the T6/1300D!


----------



## Etienne (Feb 2, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Global shutter requires twice as large capacitance per pixel to handle the same amount of photoelectrons as rolling shutter. Or, with the same capacitance per pixel, it can only handle half the amount of photoelectrons.


No, a neutral density filter can take care of that. Sony developed a variable electronic neutral density filter years ago. It is in the FS5, and may make it into the upcoming A7s III


----------



## Etienne (Feb 2, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Global shutter requires twice as large capacitance per pixel to handle the same amount of photoelectrons as rolling shutter. Or, with the same capacitance per pixel, it can only handle half the amount of photoelectrons.


Furthermore, why?
An individual pixel is exposed to light for the same amount of time whether it's a rolling shutter or a global shutter.


----------



## Ralph Conway (Feb 2, 2020)

Good times to be in as a photographer  
Hope the R6 will have the the scroll wheel on the back, too.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 2, 2020)

Etienne said:


> No, a neutral density filter can take care of that.


Of what "that"? Of decreased DR at base ISO?



Etienne said:


> Furthermore, why?


Because physics. Global shutter is not some sort of LCD filter in front of the sensor. It's a set of gates that allow photoelectrons to flow from the potential well in the photoelectron-collecting part of a pixel to the potential well of the same (or greater) capacity in the non-photoelectron-collecting part of the same pixel.


----------



## pj1974 (Feb 3, 2020)

Tom W said:


> How many bodies had that 18 mpx crop sensor over a couple of year period.





Michael Clark said:


> Couple of years?
> Try from 2009 (7D) all the way to 2018 when the T7/200D replaced the T6/1300D!



Actually the same 18MP sensor is also found in the Canon 4000D (aka Rebel T100 in some parts of the world). FYI, it was the 2000D (Rebel T7) that replace the 1300D camera, I realise 200D was likely just a typo. 

The 4000D became a new 'budget entry level' line of Canon DSLRs when it was announced in 2018, and it continues to be a current model in many parts of the world. So Canon are certainly getting their money's worth from the R&D to produce that 18MP sensor.

FWIW, I have the 7D and the 80D, which is a 24MP sensor, with a much newer design fabrication technique. The colours, sharpness and ability to manipulate image files in the 80D are much superior to the 7D's sensor (i.e. much more than just an increase in megapixels).

I look forward to seeing what Canon's new sensors (both APS-C and FF) are capable of... I am quite optimistic. 

Regards

PJ


----------



## Andersoncmr (Feb 3, 2020)

Hoping for 2 slots... this will be my next cameras for weddings.


----------



## koketso (Feb 3, 2020)

Laslen said:


> How are they going to manage heat in these bodies, for video? Cooling fans?
> 
> This is a lot more believable than the R5 specs, at least.


This is why the sensor is 20mp.


----------



## koketso (Feb 3, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Wow. So this is obviously not the EOS RS. It's not the EOS R ii. Exactly what is it?? Same sensor as the 1D X III?


Its basically the Sony-killer for combo (video and photo) shooters.
Will probably lack the headphone jack, dual card slots, and C-Log, but will cost less than an A7III and have a tilting touchscreen.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 3, 2020)

Canon Thoughts - The internet loses its mind


It seems the internet has weighed in with the Canon EOS R5. With some interesting, and even some amusing takes. Let's be real here. The EOS R1 (or whatever it will be called - I think if it's an R5 and R6, odds are very good it's an R1) is coming in 2021. Canon is going to leave things off...



www.canonnews.com





Great piece over at Canon news. I've said on here myself, the 4K120 on the R5 will clearly come with strong caveats (like a pretty huge crop at 120fps 4k or line skipping, etc...). The R6 based on its sensor size should perform equal to the 1DX2 and 1DX3 so far as video goes with the 4K60. (the 1DX2 had 4k60 on this very same sensor with and older/slower processor).


----------



## Lenscracker (Feb 3, 2020)

Lukas Haupt said:


> Or it is rumoured low light body. Which could be really good. If there are no drawbacks like one cards slot etc, then R5 together with R6 would be perfect kit for wedding photographer. R6 for low light and maybe faster in terms of readout (better silent shutter) and R5 for portraits etc. Sounds really good to me


Based on sensor resolution alone it seems like the R5 - R6 team very closely resembles the Nikon Z7 - Z6 combo. I recently bought the Z6 because it has what I want and it uses all my Canon lenses perfectly with an adapter. If the R6 has the low light capabilities of the Z6 it will be a huge success, and I may sell my Z6 which I only bought for the auto focus-stack capabilities. I am prepared to pre-order the R5 right now because I sold my 5D3 and I am now stuck with only the 5DSR, 7D2, Pentax K-1, and a Nikon Z6.


----------



## Lukas Haupt (Feb 3, 2020)

Lenscracker said:


> Based on sensor resolution alone it seems like the R5 - R6 team very closely resembles the Nikon Z7 - Z6 combo. I recently bought the Z6 because it has what I want and it uses all my Canon lenses perfectly with an adapter. If the R6 has the low light capabilities of the Z6 it will be a huge success, and I may sell my Z6 which I only bought for the auto focus-stack capabilities. I am prepared to pre-order the R5 right now because I sold my 5D3 and I am now stuck with only the 5DSR, 7D2, Pentax K-1, and a Nikon Z6.


As I already wrote in different thread, I was told by canon marketing guy, that this year we will see high mpx body and low light body. Based on the R5 and R6 specs I m startung to trust more what he said. But he might be wrong, I admit that. But I really widh, he was telling truth. Would be really great wedding combo...


----------



## Etienne (Feb 3, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Of what "that"? Of decreased DR at base ISO?
> 
> 
> Because physics. Global shutter is not some sort of LCD filter in front of the sensor. It's a set of gates that allow photoelectrons to flow from the potential well in the photoelectron-collecting part of a pixel to the potential well of the same (or greater) capacity in the non-photoelectron-collecting part of the same pixel.


Because physics? What a snide BS response. 
Your camera has always had a global shutter for photos.
"Global shutter" merely means that the sensor is read for an exposure of the entire sensor such that the top of the frame is exposed at the same time as the bottom of the frame. Rolling shutter, and the resulting jello effect, is due to exposure and readout occurring line by line from top to bottom. Any given pixel is NOT exposed to more or less light regardless of whether it is a global shutter or a rolling shutter. In fact if that was the case then setting exposure would be different for rolling vs global shutters, and it is not.
And it does not affect dynamic range.
My reference to the electronic ND was a solution to your claim that there would be too much light in the case of the global shutter, which is false anyway.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 3, 2020)

Etienne said:


> Because physics? What a snide BS response.


Have you read what was written after, or did mentioning of physics just shut your brain?

Sorry, but in order to understand the limitations of global shutter, you need to know some physics.



Etienne said:


> Your camera has always had a global shutter for photos.


No, it has a mechanical rolling shutter (why do you think there is X-sync shutter speed)? It's just that the mechanical shutter is much faster than the electronic one.



Etienne said:


> "Global shutter" merely means that the sensor is read for an exposure of the entire sensor such that the top of the frame is exposed at the same time as the bottom of the frame.


Do you have any idea how it physically happens, given the limited data bandwidth between the sensor and the rest of the camera? Or... because magic?



Etienne said:


> My reference to the electronic ND was a solution to your claim that there would be too much light in the case of the global shutter,


There were no such claim. There is no problem to make a sensor with an intentionally _decreased_ quantum efficiency if needed.


----------



## katysei (Feb 4, 2020)

What do you think on the idea by Tony Northrup that eos R6 will be like the Panasonics S1H camera with similar of price range , around 5000$? 
I do hope It will not be the case.


----------



## PureClassA (Feb 4, 2020)

katysei said:


> What do you think on the idea by Tony Northrup that eos R6 will be like the Panasonics S1H camera with similar of price range , around 5000$?
> I do hope It will not be the case.



I had to (BARF) watch the first few mins of that video to see if he really said that.... YUP. He did.

Nuttier than a squirrel turd.

No way on earth Canon is pricing that 1) MORE than the R5. and 2) at $5000. The Sony A7s is under $3k and Canon considers that FAR more a competitor than the S1H.

It really depends how deeply video centric the R6 is. Canon has a lot of what most people want right now in the EOS R for video, short of FF readout and 4k60, and throw IBIS in there for good measure. The EOS R is now at $1799. in other words, its priced to match the Sony A7.

IF the R6 has a bunch of truly dedicated video features like maybe C-Log 2 or zebras and false color or maybe even ProRes RAW output etc...(things they would not put in the R5) then I could see it sitting along side the R5 at the $3500 range. If Canon intends to be competitive with the A7s however, we're talking $2500. If it intends to be competitive with the A7, then expect $1500-$1800 where the EOS R is now. But $5000??? Hell no. The Panny S1H is $3999


----------



## Kit. (Feb 4, 2020)

katysei said:


> What do you think on the idea by Tony Northrup


Should I read further?


----------



## slclick (Feb 5, 2020)

Seems like there's two price camps.Although kind of 70/30. I cannot believe that the 5/6 naming and correlating price structure will be any different with mirror or without. Seems it's the A7Ss killer people that think that somehow it will be more expensive. Hmmmm....Everyone else (the 70%) reads the R6 as lower everything. A mirrorless 6D2 to it's 5D4 compadre.


----------



## jd7 (Feb 5, 2020)

slclick said:


> Seems like there's two price camps.Although kind of 70/30. I cannot believe that the 5/6 naming and correlating price structure will be any different with mirror or without. Seems it's the A7Ss killer people that think that somehow it will be more expensive. Hmmmm....Everyone else (the 70%) reads the R6 as lower everything. A mirrorless 6D2 to it's 5D4 compadre.


Obviously the R6 name suggests a 6D level camera, but at the same time the specs don't yell 6D to me.

My speculation is:

R5 will be the 5D level mirrorless camera. I'm a little surprised it will jump all the way to 45 MP, but if it has a C-RAW mode at about 30 MP that should satisfy anyone who doesn't want larger files. I think (similar to what others have said), there will be caveats to a number of the specs we have seen, eg 12 FPS mechanical shutter / 20 FPS electronic shutter will have focus and quite probably exposure locked at the first frame. Wiith AF and AE, I reckon the FPS will drop to something around the 7 FPS which the 5D IV does now (which will be a step up the 4.3 FPS the 5D IV does in live view, even before accounting for the increased resolution), maybe closer to 10 FPS if we are lucky. I don't do video so I am not across details but my guess is it will do very good video but there will be compromises there somewhere, eg 8K will be timelapse, 4K120 will be for a short burst only, and there may be limitations even on the other 4K modes (eg no DPAF - that might be trade off against having full frame 4K on a 45 MP sensor). It will probably have a tilt/flip screen (although maybe not) and will be an excellent allrounder, with plenty of resolution, but it won't be anything like as fast as the 1Dx III and it won't track fast, erratically moving subjects as well as the 1Dx III. It will offer something to attract 5D IV and R owners, as well as competing with the Nikon Z7, Nikon D850 and to some extent the Sony A7R IV.

R6 will be aimed at video on a budget (compared to cinema cameras, etc), eg for vloggers. It will definitely have a tilt/flip screen, and even though it won't boast 8K in its specs, it will have better video capabilities somehow than the R5 (eg DPAF even in 4K - although perhaps not 4K60 since I don't think the 1Dx III will have that?), perhaps better codecs, perhaps better ability to connect to external recorders. So far as stills go, it will be very similar to the R5 (eg same FPS limitations as the R5) but with the much lower resolution. The lower res sensor will be marketed as better for low light - but the extent to which it really is better will have to tested in due course. It will sit a bit below the R5 in price, but if Canon goes high with the video capabilities, and includes things like 2 card slots, I think it will be aimed more at the Sony A7S line (or perhaps just be a new line of its own), rather than a camera meant to sit at the 6D level.

So, if R5 and R6 are along the lines of my speculation, there is room at the top for both a seriously high res camera (R3, R5s, whatever) and a 1-series R camera in due course. There may also be room for a 6D level camera below the R6 in due course, say a year or so after the R5 and R6 (similar to how 6D cameras have followed 5D cameras), with resolution between the R6 and R5 but more limited video capabilities than the R6, and perhaps different ergonomics and a single card slot. For the time being though, if you want an R series camera but you don't want to pay for an R5 or R6, your option at about the 6D level will be the current EOS R (which will drop to around 6D II price). Oh, and I think the RP line will continue separately, with the focus being very much on small size - a bit like the 100D/200D line of DSLR cameras.

The other option is the R6 is basically just an R5 with a lower resolution sensor (a bit like what I understand Nikon has done with the Z6 and Z7). That could mean it is meant to be the 6D equivalent in the mirrorless line ... but to me 20 MP seems too low for that, especially when the Nikon Z6 and most recent Sony A7 series camera have 24 MP, I believe, and the 6D II has 26 MP and the 5D IV and R have 30 MP. Yes the R6 would still bring some things to the table, and yes a few MP doesn't really make that much practical difference most of the time, but from a marketing perspective I would have thought they would go higher with the MP. I guess one possible answer might be thatCanon wants to put one of its latest generation sensors in there without having to develop a new one so it has simply re-used the 1Dx III sensor ... so they could do that, perhaps give the R6 one card slot, etc, and place the R6 as the 6D level camera despite it being 20 MP. But, well, I still think 20 MP is too low for that, unless perhaps the R6 is quite a bit cheaper than I expect it to be.

OK, that's my 2 cents  Will be interesting to see what Canon gives us!!


----------



## tnargs (Feb 6, 2020)

Jethro said:


> Wow. So this is obviously not the EOS RS. It's not the EOS R ii. Exactly what is it?? Same sensor as the 1D X III?


It's vapour!


----------



## hamish (Feb 6, 2020)

I find it strange that in all of the discussion about R1, R5S, R5, R6, R, RP, R7, etc, not one person has mentioned that the Ra is an actual camera that you can buy today.

If the R6 specs are to be believed, wouldn't it be a great replacement for everyone who has the Pana GH5? They're video focussed, 20MP, and getting a bit long in the tooth now. Given a few worthwhile upgrades over the GH5, Canon could sell the R6 to YouTubers/vloggers/etc by the pallet load.

And given that the R6 will have IBIS, couldn't Canon enable a high-res pixel shift mode? So for tripod use e.g. landscapes, you'd get much higher resolution than just the 20MP. Nice selling point against the Oly EM1 II, A7R3, Pana G9, etc.

Also a question out of left field: would it be possible for Canon to produce a line (or lines) of cameras with the same bodies and internals and use features in firmware to differentiate them? That would enable large economies of scale for Canon. If a user wanted to upgrade, they could pay for the next level firmware. So if I paid for the R7, but wanted to get the video features of the R6 or R5, I'd upgrade it's firmware and it would be "unlocked". Or maybe pay for an upgrade to unlock some more fps? Or a higher resolution EVF? Probably an idea that has been explored and debunked already, but with MILCs this may be much more doable now.


----------



## SteveC (Feb 6, 2020)

hamish said:


> Also a question out of left field: would it be possible for Canon to produce a line (or lines) of cameras with the same bodies and internals and use features in firmware to differentiate them? That would enable large economies of scale for Canon. If a user wanted to upgrade, they could pay for the next level firmware. So if I paid for the R7, but wanted to get the video features of the R6 or R5, I'd upgrade it's firmware and it would be "unlocked". Or maybe pay for an upgrade to unlock some more fps? Or a higher resolution EVF? Probably an idea that has been explored and debunked already, but with MILCs this may be much more doable now.



We'd never, ever, EVER hear the end of "cripple hammer" puling if Canon did this.

Also, it could be hacked, and Canon would be out huge money, since self-righteous people thinking Canon has no right to "cripple" their cameras would just get them hacked.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 6, 2020)

jd7 said:


> Obviously the R6 name suggests a 6D level camera, but at the same time the specs don't yell 6D to me.
> 
> My speculation is:
> 
> ...




None of the .cr3 cameras have a reduced resolution raw mode. C-RAW is full resolution but uses slightly lossy compression to reduce file size (like options Nikon and Sony have been offering for a while). If they offer a reduced resolution raw output for the R5, it will be the first of the .cr3 cameras to have any such thing.


----------



## jd7 (Feb 6, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> None of the .cr3 cameras have a reduced resolution raw mode. C-RAW is full resolution but uses slightly lossy compression to reduce file size (like options Nikon and Sony have been offering for a while). If they offer a reduced resolution raw output for the R5, it will be the first of the .cr3 cameras to have any such thing.


Ah OK, well, either (A) I didn't appreciate C-RAW was necessarily full resolution and what I wrote about that didn't make a lot of sense, or (B) I meant Canon should introduce a reduced resolution C-RAW in the R5 (even though if they were going to introduce a reduced resolution mode you would think being able to save it the full RAW file would make more sense!). Hhhmmm, I think I'll say I meant (B) ... and you're all going to believe me, right?


----------



## hamish (Feb 6, 2020)

SteveC said:


> We'd never, ever, EVER hear the end of "cripple hammer" puling if Canon did this.
> 
> Also, it could be hacked, and Canon would be out huge money, since self-righteous people thinking Canon has no right to "cripple" their cameras would just get them hacked.



While I agree that there'd be a small subset of people who'd be "outraged" and would attempt to hack their cameras to unlock all of the features, I'd point to the number of people who have - or rather haven't - downloaded and installed Magic Lantern. If it's not particularly easy and results in a voided warranty, I think that the vast majority of people would pay for the upgrades, and that would be enough to make it worthwhile. Especially if Canon made it really easy e.g. connect the camera directly to WiFi, and pay for and install the upgrades directly. Think as easy as installing a new app on Android/iOS, and people would do it. A kind of Canon app store. This is the reason Netflix exists, they made it easy enough for people to get content, and so torrenting is much less prevalent now than a few years ago (stats from Aus backs this up, we used to be the worst!). 

You could also do smart things like time based upgrades. Want to unlock an extra 5 fps but only need it for a week, well only pay $3.99 for that. Want it forever, then pay $129.99.

MILCs make this possible. We see it now with new firmwares providing new features, I'd like to see it applied across familes of cameras. It seems kind of inevitable to me and I wonder who is going to do it first?

If they really wanted to go full on, they could make it so you could upgrade the hardware too. Want to upgrade from DIGIC 8 to X (and yes before you all go "that's not possible!", I know with current cameras it would require underlying hardware architecture changes to support this, I'm using this as an example to illustrate a point)? Take it to the support centre, send it off, get it back a few days/weeks later and hey presto, new processor! Want a bigger buffer, get a memory upgrade. And so on.

Canon could also laud their green credentials too, as your camera could effectively "grow" with you as your photography skills, and needs, develop. You no longer have to upgrade bodies. There's little to no e-waste being produced, and it makes the camera useful for a bunch more years. There'd be far less packaging trash, as you simply upgrade the feature set of the camera and you're good to go. I can genuinely see this happening at some stage, and reasonably soon too.


----------



## Joules (Feb 6, 2020)

hamish said:


> MILCs make this possible. We see it now with new firmwares providing new features, I'd like to see it applied across familes of cameras. It seems kind of inevitable to me and I wonder who is going to do it first?


I could see whoever doing this shooting themselves in the foot.

With how saturated the market is, there is only so much hassle people are willing to go through in order to upgrade. Most get what they need out of their current bodies.

The prospect of using an adapter or a different kind of viewfinder, or purchasing new lenses in order to take full advantage of your body is already enough to put off people from the RF system.

If you are now also forced to have Canon account with an associated payment method just in order to use any but the most basic configuration of your hardware, that adds another layer of annoyance to changing gear. And how else would you handle your proposed product? If you create multiple SKUs for the different configurations, that seems to add more overhead to sales then it may be worth.

It may make sense from a business point of view in terms of the cost. But if it were a solution that could easily be deployed, wouldn't there be examples of this in other markets? Especially the saturation is what hurts such an approach for many parts of the Canon lineup I think.


----------



## Kit. (Feb 6, 2020)

hamish said:


> Also a question out of left field: would it be possible for Canon to produce a line (or lines) of cameras with the same bodies and internals and use features in firmware to differentiate them?


Only in very limited range of features (like C-Log), otherwise it would mean selling cameras with more expensive hardware than needed.


----------



## BillB (Feb 6, 2020)

slclick said:


> Seems like there's two price camps.Although kind of 70/30. I cannot believe that the 5/6 naming and correlating price structure will be any different with mirror or without. Seems it's the A7Ss killer people that think that somehow it will be more expensive. Hmmmm....Everyone else (the 70%) reads the R6 as lower everything. A mirrorless 6D2 to it's 5D4 compadre.


Three camps. There are those of us who are happy enough to wait and see how it plays out.


----------



## Optics Patent (Feb 6, 2020)

ahsanford said:


> They are coming. You don't sell an FF body for $999 and force folks to spend $2500 for exotic glass. Less expensive RF lenses are coming.
> 
> Like these: https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-rf-24-105mm-f-3-5-5-6-is-stm-on-the-way-as-well-as-a-second-lens/
> 
> - A



Agreed. All that is needed is a loss leader kit zoom and a matching loss leader tele zoom. 

The rest can be more profitable mid price lenses like the $500 35mm f1.8 and 24-240. Plus the RF L glass.


----------



## Michael Clark (Feb 7, 2020)

Kit. said:


> Only in very limited range of features (like C-Log), otherwise it would mean selling cameras with more expensive hardware than needed.



BINGO!


----------



## SaP34US (Feb 7, 2020)

Will there e any announcements about what R6 will be like even though is it not until may? I know the main announcements will R5 and new lenses.


----------



## katysei (Feb 7, 2020)

SaP34US said:


> Will there e any announcements about what R6 will be like even though is it not until may? I know the main announcements will R5 and new lenses.


20MP camera resolution bugs me. I don't understand it. I thought it should be at least around 30-32 MP.


----------



## slclick (Feb 7, 2020)

katysei said:


> 20MP camera resolution bugs me. I don't understand it. I thought it should be at least around 30-32 MP.


There are some who think it is to compete with this.....https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1186034-REG/sony_ilce7sm2_b_alpha_a7sii_mirrorless_digital.html

If so, there's your bump.Really though, no one knows anything except about the 1DXiii.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 7, 2020)

katysei said:


> 20MP camera resolution bugs me. I don't understand it. I thought it should be at least around 30-32 MP.


Why would that bug you? There will also be the r5 at 45mp. A hi res R at 75-90mp. The R at 30mp. You will have choices. No one will force you to buy the r6


----------



## slclick (Feb 7, 2020)

Sometimes these complainers come here and act like it's DPR and they will be joined by legions of like minded people. Sorry, but rational thought on CR is maintaining a >51% majority (threads may vary depending on card slot and DR posts)


----------



## katysei (Feb 8, 2020)

Aussie shooter said:


> Why would that bug you? There will also be the r5 at 45mp. A hi res R at 75-90mp. The R at 30mp. You will have choices. No one will force you to buy the r6


Price and especially size/weight.

I think ,the eos R5 will be in the same form factor as eos R,
while R6 will be more like the RP.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Feb 8, 2020)

katysei said:


> Price and especially size/weight.
> 
> I think ,the eos R5 will be in the same form factor as eos R,
> while R6 will be more like the RP.


Price i can understand as i am sure the r5 will be significantly more but not size or weight . Yes the rp is smaller but thr R is still small and light. I dont think the rp form factor offers a great deal of benifit in that department. And M62 would be better if you want small. Obviously you then have sacrifice of a crop sensor however.


----------



## Rohnsman (Feb 20, 2020)

I had a chance to have hands-on with an EOS R in the store this week. Having had an EOS D30, 10D, 20D, 30D, 50D, and now a 6D, I've had many thousands of hours of muscle-memory with EOS controls. The EOS R ? Whaa?? It no longer has that good EOS feel. If I have to re-learn the controls why stick with Canon at all? I truly hope the new EOS R# models return the controls we've learned to know and love.


----------



## Viggo (Feb 20, 2020)

Rohnsman said:


> I had a chance to have hands-on with an EOS R in the store this week. Having had an EOS D30, 10D, 20D, 30D, 50D, and now a 6D, I've had many thousands of hours of muscle-memory with EOS controls. The EOS R ? Whaa?? It no longer has that good EOS feel. If I have to re-learn the controls why stick with Canon at all? I truly hope the new EOS R# models return the controls we've learned to know and love.


I takes more than 5 minutes in the store to get used to it, I feel it’s very canon from many perspectives, including how logical everything is, and not buried in menues, and the level of possible customization is crazy.


----------



## koenkooi (Feb 20, 2020)

Viggo said:


> I takes more than 5 minutes in the store to get used to it, I feel it’s very canon from many perspectives, including how logical everything is, and not buried in menues, and the level of possible customization is crazy.



The R and RP were 'different' from my 7D1, but very similar to the M series. I do wish Canon would make the differences a bit less between the M and R series. The default buttons for 'zoom to AF point' in image review are reversed between the M6II and RP. On the M6II it's the '*' button, on the RP it's the button below the '*' button.

For the rest, they all take a picture when I press the shutter button, which is in the same place on all R and M series


----------



## Stuart (Feb 24, 2020)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


So what might all those dials be for?


----------



## BeenThere (Feb 24, 2020)

Rohnsman said:


> I had a chance to have hands-on with an EOS R in the store this week. Having had an EOS D30, 10D, 20D, 30D, 50D, and now a 6D, I've had many thousands of hours of muscle-memory with EOS controls. The EOS R ? Whaa?? It no longer has that good EOS feel. If I have to re-learn the controls why stick with Canon at all? I truly hope the new EOS R# models return the controls we've learned to know and love.


So is there another brand that has that EOS feel that you like? Maybe time to move on.


----------



## SaP34US (Mar 16, 2020)

sulla said:


> There is just no way that the 20MP sensor of the R6 can "only" do [email protected] and the 45MP sensor of the R5 can do [email protected] and both sensors can do the same 20 fps electronic. IF they make this work, then the R5 needs to be dual processor with split sensor readout or something like this, which would make the R5 rather more like an R1


Would a 20mp sensor be able to handle more then 5.5k like 6k or is weather its 'Digic 9' or the known new Digic X processor?


----------



## sulla (Mar 16, 2020)

SaP34US said:


> Would a 20mp sensor be able to handle more then 5.5k like 6k or is weather its 'Digic 9' or the known new Digic X processor?


I just can't see why the smaller R6 sensor would be read out slower than the larger, R5 sensor, unless encoding is the limiting step and the R5 had much more processing power.

But, having said that, the specs for the R5 were spot on, so, probably the R6's are as well...


----------



## deanmejos (Apr 8, 2020)

still curious here about the price and form factor. currently have a 6DII and M5 so more details about the R6 will help me decide which upgrade path to take.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 8, 2020)

deanmejos said:


> still curious here about the price and form factor. currently have a 6DII and M5 so more details about the R6 will help me decide which upgrade path to take.



Isn't everyone?


----------



## deanmejos (Apr 12, 2020)

the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards this camera being priced at $1800~2000. 

anyone else thinking that this card will run on SD cards and Canon will nerf it by differentiating the specs? UHS-II and UHS-I


----------



## picperfect (Apr 12, 2020)

R6 rumor with 20MP is very strange. none of the possible options makes much sense to me.

A) If it were a video-optimized Sony A7S then it should have been the 8k machine, rather than the R5 (which could have been successful as a hi-rez stills-optimized 5DS successor.)

B) if it were a low-budget 6D series / RP "Mk. II" successor, it should have at least 30 MP (possibly just re-using EOS R sensor one more time).

C) if it were to re-use 1DX III sensor then why not go for a A9 II type action/speed machine?

something is really off with the R6 rumour (specs).


----------



## deanmejos (Apr 12, 2020)

A) but you need more than 20MP to shoot 8k
B) or just use the same 26MP 6DII/RP sensor again to keep the price down
C) because the high speed/action camera is reserved for the top end mirrorless

the R6 will be crippled but not to the extent that it won't sell well and Canon knows exactly how to do that. nonetheless, i'm still hoping it gets priced under $2000.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 12, 2020)

picperfect said:


> R6 rumor with 20MP is very strange. none of the possible options makes much sense to me.
> 
> A) If it were a video-optimized Sony A7S then it should have been the 8k machine, rather than the R5 (which could have been successful as a hi-rez stills-optimized 5DS successor.)
> 
> ...



I agree there's something distinctly odd about the R6 as rumored. It seems to be the worst of several different worlds, with really no features about it that would excite people (other than--perhaps--a very low price, but it seems to me to not even be worth the prices mentioned so far; it'll be obsolete the moment it's released). Not enough resolution to be a video monster (yet otherwise seems to be positioned that way according to some rumors), not really enough resolution to succeed any other camera ("resolution doesn't really matter past this point" or not, marketing would tell them "don't you dare cut the resolution going from one model to the next" and make it stick).

Yet they are supposedly pulling the sensor out of a very specialized action/speed camera--one where resolution was obviously traded for speed, a camera for people who need speed above all else--and sticking it in a body where those things will NOT be taken advantage of--because, as deanmejos pointed out they wouldn't put that stuff in anything other than a flagship camera. So what's the point of using that sensor? In this camera it trades resolution for...nothing at all!

I've basically ignored the R6, thus far, because I strongly suspect that at least 80% of what we think we know about it is baloney, bravo sierra. Therefore I can't know whether this camera will meet my needs. I just know that if everything we think is true, it certainly won't.

So this has the feel of, "There's something important here that we simply do not know yet, that will make it all make sense." Some unrevealed feature that changes everything, some mistaken spec.

One piece of good news is that apparently it will be announced before the R5 hits the stores, so I can wait to decide between the two, in case the R6 ends up surprising me by having a resolution more in line with current sensor technology.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 12, 2020)

What if the 20MP sensor the R6 uses is not the same sensor in the 1D X Mark III, but rather the 20MP sensor that was used by the 1D X Mark II? Would a lower cost option make more sense then?


----------



## SteveC (Apr 12, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What if the 20MP sensor the R6 uses is not the same sensor in the 1D X Mark III, but rather the 20MP sensor that was used by the 1D X Mark II? Would a lower cost option make more sense then?



Not really. You'd still be giving up resolution in going with a sensor that's lower res than anything else at this level...and not getting, in return, the speed that that sensor is designed for. That doesn't change because the sensor you'd be crippling is capable of less speed than the other one.

It would lower Canon's cost, probably (assuming the Mark III sensor is more expensive than the Mark II sensor), but it wouldn't make the camera more worthwhile. So maybe if they do that they could cut the price a bit further, but still, it would be a camera with profoundly uninspiring specs.

After I wrote my post someone did bring up the subject of low light. That, at least, could make some difference (you'd be getting something in exchange for that resolution); but this would be the camera that will be pigeonholed into "low cost, low light" bucket. That might make a difference to others; it won't make any difference to me.


----------



## deanmejos (Apr 13, 2020)

I raised this somewhere else (not sure if this forum/thread or elsewhere) but what if it's the 1DX III sensor with a different/more basic low-pass filter? There's a remark about the 1DX III having a newly designed low-pass filter for better IQ so if Canon wants to nerf the R6, weakening the IQ is a good place to start. The low MP count of the R6 will not excite people but the 12fps + dual card slots will. Sure, they won't make you a better photographer (nor will it give you better IQ necessarily), but weren't so many people (at least Internet noise) going on about why they're switching away from Canon (to Sony) because the R and RP were slow and not "professional enough" to use for serious work. With all the buzz about dual card slots being "essential", it makes sense for Canon to include them and say "hey, this thing's only got 20MP but we have dual card slots" even if I'm almost sure that one of those will be UHS-I only.


----------



## SecureGSM (Apr 13, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> What if the 20MP sensor the R6 uses is not the same sensor in the 1D X Mark III, but rather the 20MP sensor that was used by the 1D X Mark II? Would a lower cost option make more sense then?


1DxII sensor readout speed was not anywhere near what is required for a modern mirrorless system. Both R and RP suffered pedestrian FPS speeds and huge EVF latencies due to sensors used in these models being old design DSLR sensors adapted to a mirrorless system.
In my POV, R6 will be marketed with a faster readout sensor. There is plenty of what can be done here in order to maintain a differentiation between product lines.
Single memory card, SD type, 1/4000 max shutter, some video features, limit FPS both mechanical and electronic shutter, remove joystick, sensor resolution to 20-28MP, x-sync speed to 1/180sec


----------



## BillB (Apr 13, 2020)

deanmejos said:


> I raised this somewhere else (not sure if this forum/thread or elsewhere) but what if it's the 1DX III sensor with a different/more basic low-pass filter? There's a remark about the 1DX III having a newly designed low-pass filter for better IQ so if Canon wants to nerf the R6, weakening the IQ is a good place to start. The low MP count of the R6 will not excite people but the 12fps + dual card slots will. Sure, they won't make you a better photographer (nor will it give you better IQ necessarily), but weren't so many people (at least Internet noise) going on about why they're switching away from Canon (to Sony) because the R and RP were slow and not "professional enough" to use for serious work. With all the buzz about dual card slots being "essential", it makes sense for Canon to include them and say "hey, this thing's only got 20MP but we have dual card slots" even if I'm almost sure that one of those will be UHS-I only.


Canon claims that the 1DXIII sensor with the new low pass filter is equivalent to 24 mp with a conventional filter. If you combine that with a 12fps mechanical shutter, good AF, a couple of card slots, an RF lens mount, small size and the right price, there may be some buyers out there.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 16, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> 1DxII sensor readout speed was not anywhere near what is required for a modern mirrorless system. Both R and RP suffered pedestrian FPS speeds and huge EVF latencies due to sensors used in these models being old design DSLR sensors adapted to a mirrorless system.
> In my POV, R6 will be marketed with a faster readout sensor. There is plenty of what can be done here in order to maintain a differentiation between product lines.
> Single memory card, SD type, 1/4000 max shutter, some video features, limit FPS both mechanical and electronic shutter, remove joystick, sensor resolution to 20-28MP, x-sync speed to 1/180sec



R is a 30MP sensor, RP is what, 26MP? Even with the same technology, they take longer to read out than a 20 MP sensor does. I wouldn't bet the bank that they're the same technology, either. The 1-series digital bodies have always had better sensor performance than their 5-series (and later, 6-series) stablemates with the same approximate resolution. Maybe it is sensor performance, maybe it's more processing power that allows more complex processing? 

The 1D X Mark II has 4K 60P and Full HD 120P video with Movie Servo AF via Dual Pixel CMOS sensor. The 5D Mark IV only has 4K30 and FHD60. Maybe the limitation for the 1D X Mark II is due to sensor readout, or maybe it is more related to Canon protecting their Cinema line in 2016 when it was released , as many accused them of doing?


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 16, 2020)

SteveC said:


> Not really. You'd still be giving up resolution in going with a sensor that's lower res than anything else at this level...and not getting, in return, the speed that that sensor is designed for. That doesn't change because the sensor you'd be crippling is capable of less speed than the other one.
> 
> It would lower Canon's cost, probably (assuming the Mark III sensor is more expensive than the Mark II sensor), but it wouldn't make the camera more worthwhile. So maybe if they do that they could cut the price a bit further, but still, it would be a camera with profoundly uninspiring specs.
> 
> After I wrote my post someone did bring up the subject of low light. That, at least, could make some difference (you'd be getting something in exchange for that resolution); but this would be the camera that will be pigeonholed into "low cost, low light" bucket. That might make a difference to others; it won't make any difference to me.



I think a lot of folks would be interested in a 20MP sensor if it gives better video performance in low light. 4K60 or FHD120 with dual pixel AF (both of which the 1D X Mark II can do) with excellent low light performance would be very attractive. Sony has sold a lot of α7s models with that lo res/low light formula. 

12 fps stills isn't too far off the 1D X Mark II at 14 fps, either, which is what that sensor is designed for.


----------



## derpderp (Apr 16, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> I think a lot of folks would be interested in a 20MP sensor if it gives better video performance in low light. 4K60 or FHD120 with dual pixel AF (both of which the 1D X Mark II can do) with excellent low light performance would be very attractive. Sony has sold a lot of α7s models with that lo res/low light formula.
> 
> 12 fps stills isn't too far off the 1D X Mark II at 14 fps, either, which is what that sensor is designed for.



Frankly, if the R6 has specs inferior to the Sony A7iii, even if it costs less (which I doubt), no one in the right mind would buy it. If the R6 is really using the 1DX Mk II sensor, it must offer equivalent (i.e. _uncrippled_) performance, to actually make sense. Only having low light superiority would make it a one-trick pony.


----------



## BillB (Apr 16, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Frankly, if the R6 has specs inferior to the Sony A7iii, even if it costs less (which I doubt), no one in the right mind would buy it. If the R6 is really using the 1DX Mk II sensor, it must offer equivalent (i.e. _uncrippled_) performance, to actually make sense. Only having low light superiority would make it a one-trick pony.


Another piece of the puzzle may be that the 20mp sensor can be a simple way to boost through put and buffer size for action photography. And people have printed large with 1DX cameras for quite a while now, not to mention 5D Mark III ‘s. I am not sure what Canon is trying to do with the R6, but I don’t think they are trying to come up with an A7III knockoff and clearly they are not going after people who need to have a lot of mp’s.


----------



## OSOK (Apr 27, 2020)

Dual SD slots not happening on this.

I'd love to be wrong.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 27, 2020)

OSOK said:


> Dual SD slots not happening on this.
> 
> I'd love to be wrong.



That's what a lot of folks once said about Dual Pixel CMOS AF ever making it into a Rebel series Canon body. 

It happened a scant five years after the 70D introduced Dual Pixel CMOS AF in 2012 when the Rebel T7i/800D was rolled out in 2017.
The first 5/7-series camera with dual card slots was the 7D Mark II in late 2014. It's been five plus years...


----------



## SecureGSM (Apr 28, 2020)

Michael Clark said:


> That's what a lot of folks once said about Dual Pixel CMOS AF ever making it into a Rebel series Canon body.
> 
> It happened a scant five years after the 70D introduced Dual Pixel CMOS AF in 2012 when the Rebel T7i/800D was rolled out in 2017.
> The first 5/7-series camera with dual card slots was the 7D Mark II in late 2014. It's been five plus years...


Are we comparing apples to apples though?
Did Canon or anyone else ever used the dual card slot option for a camera that sits at the bottom of prosumer range?
DPAF is an extremely useful feature for non pros: faster focusing and sharper snapshots for the crowd that shoot in live view mode stills or video.
What Is the value of a second card slot to this crowd though? Close to 0 in my experiences.


----------



## derpderp (Apr 28, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Are we comparing apples to apples though?
> Did Canon or anyone else ever used the dual card slot option for a camera that sits at the bottom of prosumer range?
> DPAF is an extremely useful feature for non pros: faster focusing and sharper snapshots for the crowd that shoot in live view mode stills or video.
> What Is the value of a second card slot to this crowd though? Close to 0 in my experiences.



Would you consider the Sony A7iii to be at the bottom of the prosumer range? I quite liked it when i could write images to 1 card and videos to another. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## padam (Apr 28, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Are we comparing apples to apples though?
> Did Canon or anyone else ever used the dual card slot option for a camera that sits at the bottom of prosumer range?
> DPAF is an extremely useful feature for non pros: faster focusing and sharper snapshots for the crowd that shoot in live view mode stills or video.
> What Is the value of a second card slot to this crowd though? Close to 0 in my experiences.


lol you realise the D600 or D7000 had the dual card slots for donkey's years and it is there is many other smaller sensor cameras as well, which are getting cheaper every minute.

First it was only in the 1-series 1Ds Mark II, then it also appeared in the 5D Mark III, now the jump is two more generations, so it can easily appear in the EOS R6 as well, considering cameras are getting more and more expensive, so they have to have more features in return.
Just because the camera has two card slots, it does not mean everyone has to use them and on every occasion.


----------



## SecureGSM (Apr 28, 2020)

derpderp said:


> Would you consider the Sony A7iii to be at the bottom of the prosumer range? I quite liked it when i could write images to 1 card and videos to another. Just my 2 cents.


A7 III was positioned quite a bit higher by SONY in hope to win a competitive edge over Canon by offering a more complete list of options. that in my view.


----------



## SecureGSM (Apr 28, 2020)

padam said:


> lol you realise the D600 or D7000 had the dual card slots for donkey's years and it is there is many other smaller sensor cameras as well, which are getting cheaper every minute.
> 
> First it was only in the 1-series 1Ds Mark II, then it also appeared in the 5D Mark III, now the jump is two more generations, so it can easily appear in the EOS R6 as well, considering cameras are getting more and more expensive, so they have to have more features in return.
> Just because the camera has two card slots, it does not mean everyone has to use them and on every occasion.


++++ First it was only in the 1-series 1Ds Mark II, then it also appeared in the 5D Mark III, now the jump is two more generations

A.M.: So your logic is that if something exist in a 1 and 5 series cameras, then it should be introduced into a bottom product line just because they can?  did you said "LOL"? righto. 

++++ considering cameras are getting more and more expensive, so they have to have more features in return.

Correct. however these features would have to be appropriate for the target audience.
you would hardly get any Rebel owner to excited by offering a 1/1000s X-Sync. However, such a feature were offered in 5 or 1 series, it would be quite a splash..

+++++ Just because the camera has two card slots, it does not mean everyone has to use them and on every occasion.

no, it does not. However, think what value this would offer to an absolute majority of the product audience. in this instance: pretty much none apart from being a storage compartment for a second memory card..

+++++ lol you realise the D600 or D7000 had the dual card slots for donkey's years and it is there is many other smaller sensor cameras as well, which are getting cheaper every minute.

I do.. and did that made any difference to the NIkon's balance sheets or improved sales of the product in question? nope.. they are nearly wiped out by now..

there is anecdotal evidence of a small group of enthusiast and advanced users that for one or another reason have not traded up for a more professional camera or just happy where they are, but aren't so obsessed with technology, unlike many CR members,...

and lastly, you are seems convinced, that the cost is the issue... the issue is inclusion of features that makes the product unnecessarily complicated if not convoluted. example? Sony camera menu.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 30, 2020)

SecureGSM said:


> Did Canon or anyone else ever used the dual card slot option for a camera that sits at the bottom of prosumer range?



No, but several of Canon's competitors sure as hell have given the option in mid-level cameras. 

No FF camera is at the "Bottom" of the Canon prosumer range as long as the 90D, 7D Mark II, and maybe even the 77D are in the catalog.


----------



## Michael Clark (Apr 30, 2020)

padam said:


> lol you realise the D600 or D7000 had the dual card slots for donkey's years and it is there is many other smaller sensor cameras as well, which are getting cheaper every minute.
> 
> First it was only in the 1-series 1Ds Mark II, then it also appeared in the 5D Mark III, now the jump is two more generations, so it can easily appear in the EOS R6 as well, considering cameras are getting more and more expensive, so they have to have more features in return.
> Just because the camera has two card slots, it does not mean everyone has to use them and on every occasion.



Don't forget the 7D Mark II in 2014 following the 5D Mark III in 2012.


----------



## jeffa4444 (May 6, 2020)

Been with Canon since 1976. Currently personally own 6D, 6DMKII, 5DS and EOS R and never used one of them for video. Im sure their are many photographers that don't use the video functions although I concede you need the video for live view. If the EOS R6 has a sensor that's good in low light at 20MP then its still going to be a good camera for Landscape particularly if its low noise. What the R6 needs to do is go back to the tried & tested control layout personally I find the Touch Bar a gimmick and turn off the touch screen for focus and firing the shutter. If they don't have a top OLED panel then the screen needs to articulate really well or that will be a negative. Personally I will likely go with the R5 for my 5DS replacement and keep using the EOS R as my 6D MKII replacement for Landscape as its lighter and the RF 24-105mm f4L IS USM is a great lens for landscape (I also use the RF 24-240 but at the long end only for now until I can afford the RF 70-200mm f2.8L IS USM).
I will transition totally to the RF mount as and when the gear is right for me.


----------

