# Airshow equipment decisions



## tomcat (Jul 15, 2016)

I will travel to two airshows in summer. I am not familiar with shooting planes. So, I ask for some advice please.
I own two crop Cameras, the Canon 80D and the Canon 7D Mark II. From my girlfried I could get an Canon 6D Mark I, if I need it. As favourite lens I will use the Canon 100-400mm Mark II and for planes more far away, I have the Canon 500mm 4 L Mark II and the Extender 1.4 Mark III. For static planes the 35mm 2 and 50mm 1.4

I will take two Cameras with me. I am not convinced to take my two crop Cameras with me. Should I combine my 500mm prime lens with the Canon 6D and the 100-400mm lens with the 7D Mark II? The image quality would be better if I move up in ISOs. What would you do? 

Which minimal shutter sheep is best for jets? 1/1250s? Maximal ISO 800?

Thomas


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## andrei1989 (Jul 15, 2016)

i would suggest to put the 100-400 on the 7d2 for flying planes, the zoom is good to have and at airshows planes will fly closer to you so forget the 500. on the 6d maybe put something wider but again, a zoom: 24-70/100

as for shutter speed generally faster than 1/1000 but you could also go slower to 1/200 to catch the motion of the propeller


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jul 15, 2016)

For airplanes with propeller speeds over 1/1000, and the jets at least 1/2000. I agree that the 100-400mm ii has enough range in APS-C bodies, and lighter weight will allow more flexibility to change the framework.

Those who have photographed rapid action with a 6D, complain about the delay in focus and low success rate in this situation. And I think that ISO 1600 will be well on the 80D and 7D Mark II.

The image below is T2i + 55-250 STM @ 250mm ISO800 F5.6 1/1000, quite Crop. Even aircraft "slow" when they move in different directions, you can not freeze the motion with only 1/1000.


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## privatebydesign (Jul 15, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> Those who have photographed rapid action with a 6D, complain about the delay in focus and low success rate in this situation. And I think that ISO 1600 will be well on the 80D and 7D Mark II.



The importance of "tracking sensitivity' can't be overstated in these situations. Make sure you go to page 307 in the English manual to C.Fn II:1 and turn it up to +2, this one small change makes a massive difference to the AF performance.

I'd go to C.Fn II:3 and 4 and put them both to 'Focus' too.


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## RJF (Jul 15, 2016)

Can't agree with some of the advice posted here, 1/1000th is generally too fast for most propeller aircraft. It might be fine for some aerobatic aircraft operating at high rpm, but any warbirds or light aircraft it will be too fast. 

When i shoot aircraft with propellers i would never go above 1/500th and ideally work between 1/60th-1/250th. For Helicopters that goes down further with 1/250th being about the maximum i would ever shoot at. As for the Jets basically anything 1/800th and above is good. I doubt you will need to even get to 800 ISO, most days you will be in the ISO range of 100-400, unless its a really dull day.

Which airshows are you going to be attending? That may dictate what gear is best due to the distances of the flying displays varying greatly between venues. 

Based on the gear options you mentioned i would be taking the 7DII and the 6D, and using the 500mm on the 7DII and the 100-400 on the 6D. Most of the bigger aircraft and formations aren't going to fly as fast or erratically to need the reach or frame rate advantages of the 7DII (or 80D) so the 6D+100-400 is would be more than capable for that. The jet displays are going to be flying faster and are a smaller subject so the 500mm on the 7DII will allow you to fill the frame more, focus better and have more fps to capture the action. 

Hope this helps!


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jul 15, 2016)

RJF said:


> When i shoot aircraft with propellers i would never go above 1/500th and ideally work between 1/60th-1/250th. For Helicopters that goes down further with 1/250th being about the maximum i would ever shoot at. As for the Jets basically anything 1/800th and above is good. I doubt you will need to even get to 800 ISO, most days you will be in the ISO range of 100-400, unless its a really dull day.


Welcome to the canonrumors.

You could post any pictures of airplanes in flight, with shutter between 1/60 - 1/250?
Thank you.


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## zim (Jul 15, 2016)

Hi tomcat

You might want to check out this

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=18673.msg545026#msg545026

Some great advise throughout and roundabout p49

Regards


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## privatebydesign (Jul 15, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> RJF said:
> 
> 
> > When i shoot aircraft with propellers i would never go above 1/500th and ideally work between 1/60th-1/250th. For Helicopters that goes down further with 1/250th being about the maximum i would ever shoot at. As for the Jets basically anything 1/800th and above is good. I doubt you will need to even get to 800 ISO, most days you will be in the ISO range of 100-400, unless its a really dull day.
> ...



Unedited complete image 1/250 sec. Plus 100% crop.


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## eli72 (Jul 15, 2016)

ISO 200, 1/200 sec


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## RJF (Jul 15, 2016)

Thanks for the welcome! 

Sure, here are some old images of mine with various settings. 

This one was shot at 800mm (400mm f2.8 + 2x) at 1/250th





Again, 800mm 1/250th





400mm 1/250th





800mm 1/100th





800mm 1/250th





You can see with most of these shots you wouldn't want to go much higher with the shutter speeds as the propeller blur would reduce further. As i said in my earlier post the type of aircraft (and its power setting at the time) will greatly vary and dictate what shutter speed is appropriate.


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jul 15, 2016)

In fact, I was more curious to see airplane pictures with shutter 1/60, and it is not during takeoff. :


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## Click (Jul 15, 2016)

RJF said:


> Thanks for the welcome!
> 
> Sure, here are some old images of mine with various settings.



WOW Beautiful pictures, RJF. Welcome to CR


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## RJF (Jul 15, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> In fact, I was more curious to see airplane pictures with shutter 1/60, and it is not during takeoff. :



Here is a shot at 500m 1/100th, at this angle any slower shutter speed would have blurred the nose or tail (or likely both). Sorry for the compression, the original file looks better but this was just taken from a low res version i had online but you get the idea.






I have heaps more at varying slow shutter speeds that i'll try find later.


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## RJF (Jul 15, 2016)

Hi Click, 

Thanks for the welcome and kind words regarding my images.


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## 2n10 (Jul 15, 2016)

Hi rjf,

Great shots. Where were they taken?

I agree with the shutter speeds rjf suggested generally. I think you can go a little faster if you do not mind seeing the individual blades instead of the circle as we normally perceive the prop motion.


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## jarrodeu (Jul 15, 2016)

Depends on the plane and how much power they are using. 
This is not quite full disk at idle and 1/25 





And this plastic plane is full disk when 1/125





Keep in mind that full disk is extremely hard to do when flying and over-rated. As long as there is a little movement in the prop, you will be fine. Just don't want it stopped unless you want to simulate an engine failure.
To me the one below is just fine.
Jarrod


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## Halfrack (Jul 15, 2016)

+1 on stating the show's you'll be shooting. The planes get close, and sometimes it's fun to get them in formations so having a wider option than the 100mm is handy. Really though, the 7D II + 100-400 II is gonna give you a lot. The 80D with a 50-100ish lens really does help - especially if you get buzzed. Faster shutter speeds for jets, but yes, with the slower aircraft, I've had some of my shots called out for popsicle stick propellers.


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## 2n10 (Jul 15, 2016)

jarrodeu said:


> Depends on the plane and how much power they are using.
> This is not quite full disk at idle and 1/25
> 
> 
> ...



Lovely shots Jarrod and I agree full disk can be overrated.


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## dcm (Jul 15, 2016)

Propeller/rotor RPMs drive shutter speed considerations. The maximum RPM depends on length of the blades. The helical (rotational +translational) velocity of the tips is limited by the speed of sound, generally the upper limit is 0.85 Mach. Exceeding this produces noise and loss of efficiency due to the shock wave. The engines typically spin much faster and drive the blades through a reduction gear. 

Some examples: A Spitfire with 3.3 meter blades on a Merlin engine with a 2:1 reduction gear has engine RPMs in 2400-3000 range with propeller RPMs in 1200-1500 range. A C130 with a 13.5 foot blades with a 13.54:1 reduction gear has engine RPMs up to 13820 with propeller RPMs of 1021. A Piper Cub with 74 inch blades driven directly spin up to 2300 RPM. 

Helicopter rotors are longer so RPMs are lower. A UH-60 BlackHawk gearbox reduces from 20,000 engine RPMs to 258 rotor RPMs for its 16.36m rotor diameter. A UH-1B Huey gearbox reduces from 6,600 engine RPM to 324 rotor RPM for its 13.4m rotor diameter. A Sikorsky S-64 SkyCrane gearbox reduces 9,000 engine RPMs to 185 rotor RPMs for is 22m rotor diameter.

Fast shutter speeds will freeze the blades, slow shutter speeds will blur them. Depends on the effect you want to achieve. What works well for one plane/helo might not work well for another. It might be worthwhile to bracket your shutter speeds.


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## KeithBreazeal (Jul 16, 2016)

Excellent explanations dcm. 
I'll add the panning issues at slow shutter speeds.
When going for prop blur, the aircraft's speed and distance from the camera can produce very different results.
The approach angle is also to be considered. 
Typical airshow shooting has a large distance(radius) compared to shooting 500mph planes at the Reno Air Race pylons. When shooting at short distances and panning, different parts of the plane will have a different speed relationship to the center of frame, resulting in motion blur. This gets really crazy when shooting for full prop blur. Picking a spot to shoot from that is about the center of the turn radius provides best results for nose to tail sharpness but lessens the prop arc circle to more of a side view.
My other consideration is DOF. If I want multiple aircraft in focus, I tend to go heavy on the aperture, resulting in a higher ISO to keep the shutter speed up.
My strategy is to start shooting at higher shutter speeds- 320 to 500, depending on prop rpm. Once I have a keeper, I start dropping the speed. When you go through all the time, effort, travel & money, it's a pisser to walk away with nothing.



Hawker SeaFury 924 / Reno Air Races © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr



Chino 2016 F7-F Tigercat 3850 © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr



Reno 2015 VooDoo pylon 6714 © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr



Nevada County AirFest T-28 takeoff blur 2386 © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr



Nevada County AirFest 2015 B-25 takeoff 1744 web © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr



Tim Decker buzzing me © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr

Strong backlit shots can be messed with until the pixels scream "stop"!



Rare Bear &amp; Strega battle it out © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr

With jets, I just crank up the speed 



Super Hornet Star Wars Canyon © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr




dcm said:


> Propeller/rotor RPMs drive shutter speed considerations. The maximum RPM depends on length of the blades. The helical (rotational +translational) velocity of the tips is limited by the speed of sound, generally the upper limit is 0.85 Mach. Exceeding this produces noise and loss of efficiency due to the shock wave. The engines typically spin much faster and drive the blades through a reduction gear.
> 
> Some examples: A Spitfire with 3.3 meter blades on a Merlin engine with a 2:1 reduction gear has engine RPMs in 2400-3000 range with propeller RPMs in 1200-1500 range. A C130 with a 13.5 foot blades with a 13.54:1 reduction gear has engine RPMs up to 13820 with propeller RPMs of 1021. A Piper Cub with 74 inch blades driven directly spin up to 2300 RPM.
> 
> ...


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## Jim Saunders (Jul 16, 2016)

If your bodies will do it you can use AEB set to plus or minus a stop or so (plus high-speed drive) to give you a decent chance of getting a good shot with the airframe sharp and the prop soft, and the insurance of a faster shot to at least get the airframe.

The ephemeris app here is useful to judge where the sunlight will be.

If its your first airshow bring an umbrella, food/water/clothing for the weather, earplugs, sunscreen.

Taking a tripod and a gimbal is your choice but if the gimbal is on a level tripod it will keep all your photos in proper context if the horizon is out of the shot.

There are a few from my last event here if you want to see what I used.

Jim


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## RGF (Jul 16, 2016)

Just read this discussion and it is great. I seldom photo planes (I dare not say I shoot plane for fear of a visit by the FBI), but if I have a change I have learned a lot.


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## dcm (Jul 16, 2016)

KeithBreazeal said:


> Excellent explanations dcm.
> I'll add the panning issues at slow shutter speeds.
> When going for prop blur, the aircraft's speed and distance from the camera can produce very different results.
> The approach angle is also to be considered.
> ...



Thanks Keith.

Figured I could add a shutter speed estimate for circle blur to finish the discussion and provide some ballpark estimates for planes and helos. 1/2 these speeds would give you a 50% blur in the disc, 1/4 these speeds a 25% blur in the disc, and so on.

shutter speed for a complete circle is 60 / (#blades * RPM)

= 60/(4*1431) or 1/100 sec for a 4 bladed prop at 1431 RPM (later model P51 Mustang)
= 60/(6*1021) or 1/100 sec for a 6 bladed prop at 1021 RPM (C130 Hercules)
= 60/(2*1800) or 1/60 sec for a 2 bladed prop at 1800 RPM (Stearman)
= 60/(4*258) or 1/17 sec for a 4 bladed rotor at 258 RPM (UH60 BlackHawk)
= 60/(6*179) or 1/18 sec for a 6 bladed rotor at 179 RPM (MH53E Pave Low)
= 60/(3*333) or 1/16 sec for 3 bladed prop at 333 RPM (V22 Osprey in forward flight)
= 60/(3*412) or 1/20 sec for 3 bladed prop at 412 RPM (V22 Osprey in hover)

Have fun at the air show.


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## tomcat (Jul 16, 2016)

Thank you for your comments!

Much advice. I´ll take a lot of equipment with me, bag, chair, enough to drink and eat and an customizable umbrella (sunprotection). I got the advice not to take an tripod with me, as the space around you on the flightline will be to less to work with an lens on an tripod properly. 
I got the information to use the Canon 500mm with 1.4 times extender on jets far away when they perform high G maneuvers and vapor is visible. Maybe an good advice.

Two PN advice to use the 80D on the Canon 500mm lens, the Canon 7D Mark II on the 10--400mm as working horse and use the Canon 6D Mark I on an wider angle zoom lens for rolling airplanes on the taxiway. If I can carry everything, this would be the overkill 

I will modify the AF performance and go on auto Iso up to 1600. 

I tried to go to Farnborough this weekend, but the head of my company refused, as we have a lot of open orders. The airshow in Hungary is cancelled. So, I will visit the airshows in Zeltweg, Slovak International Air Fest 2016, Czech International Air Fest 2016 and the Axalp shooting in Switzerland. I know, they are no really "big" events, but affordable. Maybe next year I can join an guided travel to GB or maybe overseas.


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## YuengLinger (Jul 16, 2016)

Outstanding thread with knowledgeable advice and the images to back it up!


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## JMZawodny (Jul 16, 2016)

tomcat said:


> I will travel to two airshows in summer. I am not familiar with shooting planes. So, I ask for some advice please.
> I own two crop Cameras, the Canon 80D and the Canon 7D Mark II. From my girlfried I could get an Canon 6D Mark I, if I need it. As favourite lens I will use the Canon 100-400mm Mark II and for planes more far away, I have the Canon 500mm 4 L Mark II and the Extender 1.4 Mark III. For static planes the 35mm 2 and 50mm 1.4
> 
> I will take two Cameras with me. I am not convinced to take my two crop Cameras with me. Should I combine my 500mm prime lens with the Canon 6D and the 100-400mm lens with the 7D Mark II? The image quality would be better if I move up in ISOs. What would you do?
> ...



Back to the original thread .... I would recommend putting the 100-400mm on the 7D2 and the 500mm on the 6D. I recently did an airshow with the 70-200mm on the 7D2 and a 500 on my 5D2 (1Dx2 did not arrive in time for the show). It was a very versatile combo for that particular airshow. Naturally, what will work best for you will depend upon where you will relative to the action. Since you have the 100-400, you may end up with that on the FF body and put the 500 on the 7D2. I certainly had enough space around most subjects to crop many of the FF images down to APS-C size.

The same goes for the static display, I could not suggest the 35 over the 50 because I don't know what you'll be shooting and how close you can get. If you have been to this air show before you should have a good idea of what will work. Have fun and post some pics after the show.


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## tomcat (Jul 16, 2016)

JMZawodny said:


> tomcat said:
> 
> 
> > I will travel to two airshows in summer. I am not familiar with shooting planes. So, I ask for some advice please.
> ...



I´ve been in all 4 airshows for one time before. At Slovak International and Czech International Air Fest there was al lot of distance to the jets. In Zeltweg, I received an Spotter ticket, so the distance will be about 30-40m to the taxying jets and about 150m to the runway. And the fast jets with a lot of vapor will be - guessed - about 1 -2 miles away. To Axalp, as you have to walk some hours to the shooting range, I will just fetch one of my crops and the 100-400 (maybe with the extender)


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## tomcat (Jul 16, 2016)

Another question: How to deal with an grey sky? underexposing for 1/2 stop?


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## KeithBreazeal (Jul 16, 2016)

tomcat said:


> Another question: How to deal with an grey sky? underexposing for 1/2 stop?



It really depends on the color of the plane. Grey military type is usually around 2/3rds of a stop for me.
Dark blue or green can go as high as 2 stops. It all really depends on the scale of grey sky- light overcast or cloud burst any second. I find myself all over the dial in these situations. Watch the histogram- don't trust the LCD. Color saturation and contrast are going to suck no matter what. Processing for black & white is also an option.

These are all 2/3rds biased.



cca 2015 Super Hornet on final 1004 © Keith Breazeal_filtered by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr



F-22 Raptor by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr



Chino 2016 Texas Flying Legends clouds 8024 WEB © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr


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## daniela (Jul 22, 2016)

Wonderful shots. Technique and speed on its best.

Is the 6D performing good enough for planes? I have to accompany my son to an airshow in Styria in some weeks. Fast and slow planes are flying. Does it make sense to fetch my cam and carry all stuff, or is the 6D not capable enough for this? In my opinion I could go up to 1600 on ISO to get short exposure times.


Oh, and where do you focus on? My few plane shots are often unsharp, because the plane is big and if I aim at the tail when it flew away from me, the rest was unsharp. The same problem with the numbers on the planes. Some are in front, some are farer away. So it is hard to get all sharp. 
Should I shoot in manual mode and take faster than 1/1000s and aperture of 8?

G
Daniela


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## ajfotofilmagem (Jul 22, 2016)

daniela said:


> Wonderful shots. Technique and speed on its best.
> 
> Is the 6D performing good enough for planes? I have to accompany my son to an airshow in Styria in some weeks. Fast and slow planes are flying. Does it make sense to fetch my cam and carry all stuff, or is the 6D not capable enough for this? In my opinion I could go up to 1600 on ISO to get short exposure times.
> 
> ...


With 6D you must have a low success rate in AI SERVO mode. So, is better just use the center focus point and disable AI SERVO AF.

For airplanes with propeller, speed 1/1000 is enough, and the Jets 1/2000.

For groups of planes, F8 gives a sufficient DOF in most cases.


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## bholliman (Jul 23, 2016)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> daniela said:
> 
> 
> > Wonderful shots. Technique and speed on its best.
> ...



Love my 6D, but I never use it in AI Servo mode. As ajfotofilmagem notes, just use single shot and the center focus point and it will perform pretty well. Just follow the plan with your camera (pan), I normally aim at the cockpit.


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## daniela (Jul 23, 2016)

bholliman said:


> ajfotofilmagem said:
> 
> 
> > daniela said:
> ...




Thank you both!
Central AF Point, ok. 
Really, use it in single shot? But then I am not able to take a row of shots, if the planes pass by or approch to me. Always new focussing. How. difficult. That is frustrating. Is there no AF feature that allows semi-sufficent auto focussing?


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## KeithBreazeal (Jul 23, 2016)

My basic gear for airshows...
full frame
crop sensor
100-400L
300L
24-105L
Tokina 16-28 f2.8
1.4x tele-converter
vest
2-way radio
blower brush



Lowepro Pro Trekker 400 AW packed © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr


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## daniela (Jul 24, 2016)

I tried to shoot with my 6D in one shot and serial picture mode at the airport in Munich today.
1/1250s, 4fps, Iso auto (max 3200). 
My problem: Most shots are out of focus, because the plane moved. What do I do wrong?


In AI servo a little bit more shots are in focus.

G
Daniela


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## chasinglight (Jul 24, 2016)

daniela said:


> I tried to shoot with my 6D in one shot and serial picture mode at the airport in Munich today.
> 1/1250s, 4fps, Iso auto (max 3200).
> My problem: Most shots are out of focus, because the plane moved. What do I do wrong?
> 
> ...



Daniela,

To fully answer your question I would need more information about your situation such as which lens, what type of aircraft (propeller or jet), and perhaps a sample image. However, to answer your question simply. When shooting aircraft or anything else this move you always want to use AI Servo. One Shot mode achieves focus, then stops focusing, while AI Servo will detect change in focus and keep trying to attain focus. Depending on the lens focal length and subject distance determine whether you need to use a single AF point or all 11. On the 6D I have used all 11 when shooting formations, but when following a single aircraft I would stick with the center AF point.

When shooting planes I recommend using Tv (Shutter Speed Priority Mode). For jet planes set the shutter speed over 1/1000s as you seem to have done. When shooting propeller plans start around 1/160s and work your way slower if you can to achieve more prop blur. Use exposure compensation as needed to expose to the right on the histogram.

There is more to shooting great aircraft in flight photos than just settings. Proper technique is very important. Follow the plane in the viewfinder while either back button focusing or half pressing the shutter. The idea is to pan very smoothly, becoming one with the motion of the plane and keeping the plane in the exact same spot in the viewfinder. Then when the composition is right, just as when shooting a gun, smoothly press the shutter button while continuing to follow the plane. 

Hope that helps and happy shooting!


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## daniela (Jul 24, 2016)

chasinglight said:


> daniela said:
> 
> 
> > I tried to shoot with my 6D in one shot and serial picture mode at the airport in Munich today.
> ...



Hi!
I will photograph with my Eos 6D and the 100mm-400mm II. My son, as he is the reason why I stay in Styria for some days, uses my 500mm 4.0 II and my 70-200 2.8 on the 7DII (my husband owns a lot of Nikon high end gear, but he is in overseas for 12 weeks and has his gear with him). 
We got some VIP tickets, so we stay some meters nearer to the runway. I asked him which planes we see, and he told me some jets (older and newer one from surrounding military), some propeller planes from WW2 and later. And a few aerobatic squadrons from Italy, Spain and Turkey. 

I am just a little bit irritated, why shooting not in AI servo mode (see posting from other members). The AI servo is composed for moving subjects. Or is this mode as bad as it can´t be used? I tried to do so today, using the 6D&100-400mm, but all pictures are really unsharp. What is my mistake?


G
Daniela


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## bholliman (Jul 25, 2016)

daniela said:


> bholliman said:
> 
> 
> > Love my 6D, but I never use it in AI Servo mode. As ajfotofilmagem notes, just use single shot and the center focus point and it will perform pretty well. Just follow the plan with your camera (pan), I normally aim at the cockpit.
> ...



I have limited air show experience, so my comments are more of a general "fast moving subject" variety. Keith and others who are real air show experts can provide better guidance. After 3.5 years with my 6D, I just finally got to the point where I have better success with single shot on almost everything, including moving objects. I've gradually improved my technique to where I get a passable keeper rate, but its never going to perform as well as bodies with better AF systems, like a 7D2, 5D3, 5Ds(R) or 1-series. Probably not as well as a 80D either.


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## awair (Jul 25, 2016)

I would also appreciate feedback as to why not use AI Servo.

I used the 6D for swimming (Butterfly, head on) and the accuracy was as good as my 7D (and better than my 7D2 which turned out to be faulty). I was always using the max frame rate, and the AI seemed to keep up fine.

I use single point/spot focus nearly all the time.

If I should consider something else for air-shows/aircraft, I would love to hear your thoughts...

Thank you.


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