# Fuel for the fire: Amazon DSLR Rankings...and no REAL 2012-2013 market data?



## jrista (Sep 8, 2014)

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-DSLR-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/3017941/ref=zg_bs_nav_e_4_3109924011

I just found it interesting...this page used to be completely dominated by Canon DSLRs. Earlier in the year/late last year, there were only a couple Nikon cameras on the list, and all of them were below 10th place. Today, I just thought I'd take another gander:

Canon still holds the top spot, with the T3i...however (at the time of writing this...seems the report is updated hourly, so who knows what it will be by the time anyone reads this):

#2: D3300
#4: D5300 Kit Option
#7: D7100
#9: D810
#10: D3100
#15: D5300 Kit Option
#17: D5200

That is seven DSLRs on that list that are now Nikon. Plus a Pentax. Of the cameras on the list, all of the Nikon's except for one held their position or GAINED. ONE Nikon fell. Of the cameras on the list, it was split 50/50 between which FELL and which gained or held their position. 

This has been a staple ranking for those who tout the market share argument. I think, in general, THIS page is one of the key pages that fuels the market share argument. In addition, so does this page:

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-DSLR-Camera-Bundles/zgbs/electronics/2476680011/ref=zg_bs_nav_e_4_3017941

Where the top two spots are held by Nikon kits now. It should also be pointed out that Nikon and Sony cameras hold the top spot on *all* the Digital Camera best sellers listings. I don't think that a page that updates hourly is honestly a good gauge of which specific camera is best...however I do believe that the consistency of brands on these pages over time is an indication of market trends. These pages used to be dominated by Canon on a regular basis...today, they seem to be much more diverse. Regardless of who has what rankings, the greater diversity is very intriguing to me. 

I started looking at these pages to see what the current state of "the market", in this case, let's just say the whole damn digital camera market, really was. In my additional searches...I have actually not found any recent market share data that's been aggregated into something easily comparable between brands. There are lots of reports, up supposedly through 2012, and some reports published in 2013, however from an actual real data standpoint, most seem to reference data up through 2010 and maybe 2011. I have not actually found any global sales reports, for the DSLR market specifically, but even the digital camera market in general, that was completely through 2012, and nothing at all for 2013. I found some reports that speak about just the Japanese or Asian markets, however the demographics there, and the cameras sold, don't seem to jive with the rest of the world (more mirrorless, for example).

So...the whole market share argument...I'm just curious, honestly curious, where it comes from. When I look around, I see that market share up through 2010 was indeed dominated by Canon. It was still controlled by Canon in 2011, however Sony and Nikon apparently closed the gap. Since then...the most critical years...2012, 2013, 2014...there doesn't actually seem to be any concrete data about the real state of the market. Only bits and pieces of disparate data that aren't directly comparable. Who is dominant, who is selling the most...and of what kind of cameras? How has market share shifted, if it's shifted at all? Which camera types are most popular, and what alternatives are REALLY cutting into what markets and where? 

Based on the current Amazon Digital Camera best sellers rankings...Canon, which I do remember held the top spots in pretty much every category...only seems to hold the top spot in ONE category now, and Nikon and Sony cameras are much more prevalent in those categories as well. Overall, those pages contain a greater diversity of brands, and the very strong dominance Canon cameras once held seems to have wavered.


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## Diko (Sep 8, 2014)

Please register in NR & SR and let the trolling begins ))

Otherwise the ranking should not be always considered as a good sign for good product: IMO in this ranking example Canon had a better model and features bundle segmentation as well as better communication to the customers.


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## DominoDude (Sep 9, 2014)

I don't have access to any search engine data, but I wouldn't be surprised if we could find a reasonably good correlation between used keywords from sites like Alexa, with how much a certain digital camera has been sold.
What I'm saying is that I think that for many potential buyers there are aspects far away from the technical development that makes them buy a certain something. Neither would I be surprised if influence from colleagues and friends, mentions in forums and magazines, and hits on Google would have an impact on sales figures.

In all I think that to explain the numbers we would end up with a fairly complex formula with many parameters in it, all sprinkled with a load of irrational behaviours on top. (Not all decisions that we make are sane - that includes buying gear and accessories.)


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## ajperk (Sep 9, 2014)

Maybe Amazon DSLR rankings are too volatile a measure to tell for sure. Using the link jrista posted, I'm seeing a different story now. Though, to be fair, members of this forum have used this data before as evidence towards the dominance of Canon in the DLSR market. Is there any way to get the data over the course of a longer period of time?


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## dgatwood (Sep 9, 2014)

The problem with hourly stats is that they change too much to be of any real value. Right now, six of the top ten DSLRs in that first link are Canon, and 12 out of the top 20. Nikon has only 4 out of the top 10 and 6 out of the top 20. Pentax and Panasonic each have one camera on the list. Sony isn't listed at all.


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## scottkinfw (Sep 9, 2014)

Another consideration is sample size. 

Is Amazon selling enough cameras to make an inference about sales in general? Should we also include sales figures from B&H, and others? What about seasonality- numbers will absolutely change between now and Christmas (Black Thursday, Cyber Monday, Christmas, etc.), so likely, it is most prudent to just compare year over year sales figures.

It is fun to speculate however, and hope that the boys at Canon are feeling the flames licking at their heels and adding more goodness to cameras.

sek


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## DRR (Sep 9, 2014)

There are a lot of factors in play here, so many that you can't draw a meaningful conclusion. 

These are HOURLY best sellers?? How about over 3 months or over 6 months?

Also amazon is a mass market retailer and will be heavily skewed towards the low end of the market. Lots of t5i and T5, but are you going to. Uy a high end pro camera from amazon? i likely wouldn't. 

Just two examples of how variable this "data" actually is.


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## Phenix205 (Sep 9, 2014)

Ridiculously confusing model numbers. I guess most just tossed a coin and picked one up without reading the specs because they would not go wrong or right with any those xxxx models. They are not bad, but none is great. When a manufacturer does that, they are intentionally playing the customers. Nikon's most glorious days were the legendary F3 to F5 era. Long gone.


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## TeT (Sep 9, 2014)

just a guess but joe consumer goes for mega pixels and Nikon tends to run higher mp in the lower priced cameras...


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## Woody (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> Based on the current Amazon Digital Camera best sellers rankings...



If you really want to follow US Amazon rankings, you need to CONSTANTLY monitor the charts. Those charts are updated very frequently. I have looked at them and Canon dominates the DSLR list about 60% of the time. The same goes for BCNRanking.

As for global sales numbers, I should have the data. Can furnish later.


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## reczey (Sep 9, 2014)

*Canon Users Know Better*

Canon Users know that everything is cheaper at B+H Video or Adorama, so they buy their stuff there - not at Amazon.


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## Steve (Sep 9, 2014)

omg who cares which multi billion dollar multinational corporation is selling more widgets

Did medieval peasants sit around wondering which of the lords won more horse races and get into weird arguments about it? Actually, they probably did. Humanity is terrible.


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## lo lite (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-DSLR-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/3017941/ref=zg_bs_nav_e_4_3109924011
> 
> I just found it interesting...this page used to be completely dominated by Canon DSLRs. Earlier in the year/late last year, there were only a couple Nikon cameras on the list, and all of them were below 10th place. Today, I just thought I'd take another gander:
> 
> Canon still holds the top spot, with the T3i...however (at the time of writing this...seems the report is updated hourly, so who knows what it will be by the time anyone reads this):



Don't confuse Amazon with the overall market. I for instance only buy at Amazon if their offer is the best, otherwise I buy somewhere else. So that data you're providing only shows that Amazon has competitive Nikon offers and not so competitive Canon offers. Look for instance at the top 10 list at this page (in german, I know, but you'll get the list never the less) http://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/?o=35 it shows a completely different trend.


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## tolusina (Sep 9, 2014)

At post time, in at #19 comes the venerable Pentax K1000.

I've no idea, nor concern regarding what that might mean about 'the' market, I'm just delighted to see that old classic, venerable, iconic and basic camera is still being actively traded enough to list with modern marvels.


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## sanj (Sep 9, 2014)

I maintain that quantity does not equal quality. 
My girlfriend vouches for that.


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## crashpc (Sep 9, 2014)

So this means that D3300 is better than D810...


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## dswtan (Sep 9, 2014)

DominoDude said:


> I don't have access to any search engine data


Yeah you do. We all do:

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=canon%20camera%2C%20nikon%20camera&cmpt=q
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=canon%20used%2C%20nikon%20used&cmpt=q

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is beyond stirring up mud but we do have some access to search engine data at least. Just more fuel. Fantasy football for camera geeks. Take photos!


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## unfocused (Sep 9, 2014)

I noticed this last week. I was surprised because when I looked the 5DIII wasn't even in the top 10, which is unusual, because for months the 6D and 5DIII have been the only full frame DSLRs in the top 20 or so. 

The Nikon D810 was in the top 10 then, which was a surprise because the D800 had fallen way down shortly after it's release. (I think it was hovering around 40-50th place most of the year)

I see that the 5DIII is now back in the top 10 and slightly above the D810.

I think it's too early to tell if the D810 ranking reflects an initial surge due to its introduction.

This is a good source, but only for general trends, rather than a specific placement on any one day or week – Although the T3i seems to always be the Number 1 seller and has been that way for probably a year or more. 

Since Amazon is the world's largest retailer, I don't think anyone should dismiss their sales numbers. But, like anything of this nature, each data point simply represents a snapshot in time and isn't meaningful until you see long range numbers. I certainly wouldn't get caught up in individual ranking spots (Camera X is in 8th place and Camera Y is in 10th place), as those slots shift over time, but still the general trends are enlightening.

Unfortunately, Amazon no longer seems to include the number of weeks a camera has been in the top 100 (at least I don't see it anymore). That was an important data point, because it helped give a better picture of the overall popularity of a camera body.


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## unfocused (Sep 9, 2014)

dswtan said:


> DominoDude said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have access to any search engine data
> ...



Very interesting. Thanks for the link.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista,
What is the point of this thread?


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 9, 2014)

post removed until I have time to try and reconcile the different way that Canon and Nikon do their accounting.

Here are the pertinent pages from their reports, it can be confusing when one reports in sales plus units while the other in sales plus percentages of units.

The numbers can be resolved, it takes more time than I have right now.


The first two charts are Canon, the Third is Nikon.


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## dswtan (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> This has nothing to do with sales, it's just the rankings of the search terms overall.



LOL! You just dismissed Google's entire business model -- which wholly relies on the correlation of search terms and ultimate sales.


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## Woody (Sep 9, 2014)

Dylan777 said:


> jrista,
> What is the point of this thread?



He hopes to find evidence to show that Canon is no longer the market leader. Whenever he whines about poor DR on Canon sensors, some folks will argue sensor quality has no correlation to market sales. I suppose Jrista just wants to prove them wrong, hence his interest in the combined market shares of Nikon and Sony vs that of Canon.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 9, 2014)

dswtan said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > This has nothing to do with sales, it's just the rankings of the search terms overall.
> ...



Actually new models get the most searches as people want to learn about them. Google charges advertisers for each "Impression", but the product may or may not actually sell well. Advertisers are used to paying more for each potential buyer that their sales information reaches.

I search out new models and information about cameras that are mentioned here, be they Sony, Fuji, Pentax, Sigma, Nikon, Canon, and even MF models. However, my searches are not going to result in a sale. I look up information on $100,000 cars, but am not going to buy one, I couldn't pay for the insurance


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## Woody (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> I'd offer one point: That Canon's "Imaging" business is much larger than consumer cameras, and also much larger in the range of markets they serve than Nikon's. Canon does photography, video, cinematography, printing, and more (plus all the accessories for all those submarkets). It even includes projectors, display technology, as well as network video (surveillance?) That's their "Imaging" business. Nikon's imaging business is just digital photography (plus accessories).



See:
http://www.canon.com/ir/conference/pdf/conf2014q2e.pdf
http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2014/rslt2014q2e.pdf

From the report:
"Within the Imaging System Business Unit, although sales volume of interchangeable-lens digital cameras declined owing to the shrinking market in Japan and other markets... the advanced-amateur-model EOS 70D realized healthy growth, enabling Canon to maintain the top share in major markets such as Europe, the U.S. and Japan."

Breakdown of product sales under Imaging System in the report: cameras and lenses (64%), inkjet printers (27%) and others (9%).


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## Maiaibing (Sep 9, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Nikon gives sales quantities but no percentage value. It does appear that their DSLR/Lens sales make up a very high percentage of their sales (~60%). I'd guess about 93% by dollar value.
> 
> Thousands of units sold:
> 
> ...



Seems to me that this must be Nikon's quarterly figures since Canon in their investor outlook for 2014 (4.th q 2013) predicted falling DSLR sales from 9 to 8 mill. units in 2014. Assuming that Nikon DSLR sales do not vary widely over the year (not sure if this is appropriate) that would put Nikon sales at something like 55% of Canon's sales - a significant gap. 

It could also indicate that Nikon is not increasing its long term total DSLR market share (this is a speculative interpretation).


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## Efka76 (Sep 9, 2014)

Jrista, you can not make valid conclusions due to the following:

1) Data is not complete. You are analysing US Amazon sales only. This data is not sufficient even for analysing US marker as there are many more internet and standard sales channels in US.
2) In order to make valid conclusions about dominance in the global market you should include all Amazon shops (US, UK, FR, etc.), B&H, retail stores and many others. Practically it is impossible to gather exact data as you will definitely will not include all sales channels.
3) It would be more reliable to gather data from Financial statements or management reports, bank analyst reports on Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc. However, here we encounter a problem that even segment reporting data is too aggregated. These companies are involved in many businesses (e.g. Sony, Canon, etc.) and do not provide in financial statements very detailed data about some particular business segment (in our case that would be specific camara data). Of course it would be very interesting for us to see what are Canon global sales of specific cameras in different markets, what is profitability of specific products (we would see that 1Dx, 5D MarkIII are the most profitable models... by the way, it is my assumption  ). However, such data would be very interesting to competitors and everybody is trying to disclose required information according to various accounting standard requirements (US GAAP, IFRS) and aggregate data in such way in order not to disclose its strengths and real position in the market to competitors. The Bank analysts are obtaining more specific data during various press releases, conf call, etc. (however that data is not audited and nobody can place 100% reliance on it). For example, if you take market position (in percentages) from different companies (I am talking about their own assessments), add everything together I am almost sure that you get more than 100% 

I am writing this as I was an Audit director for many years in BIG4 and know such things


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## ULFULFSEN (Sep 9, 2014)

DRR said:


> Also amazon is a mass market retailer and will be heavily skewed towards the low end of the market. Lots of t5i and T5, but are you going to. Uy a high end pro camera from amazon? i likely wouldn't.



of course i would and i have. 

amazon just replaces a broken camera during warranty. easy and simple. 
with brick and mortar retailers you often have to argue and they send them in.

at least here in europe.
we don´t have something big like B&H or Adorama.


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## Ivan Muller (Sep 9, 2014)

if canon sales are indeed falling it will only be good news for us. Because then they might become more competitive either ito price, quality, specs, dare I mention sensor design? etc etc. But I fear that they are still no1 all over...so they will only 'improve' slowly and incrementally


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## ajperk (Sep 9, 2014)

Well, if we've learned something from this thread I'd say it's simply the difficulty in finding good, granular data on DSLR and camera sales volume or the big players in the field. Thinking back to all the people I've met with DSLR or MILC cameras over the last few years, I think I've seen mostly Canon and Nikon, and maybe a bit more Canon than Nikon but not by a lot, and by far entry level bodies with kit lenses were the dominant set up encountered. Being of that age when all your friends start getting married, I have paid a lot of attention to the equipment of wedding photographers, and in those cases I think there was probably approximately a 3:1 ratio of Canon to Nikon equipment. Those are my unscientific two cents, anyway.


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## fragilesi (Sep 9, 2014)

dswtan said:


> DominoDude said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have access to any search engine data
> ...



This tells me all I need to know ;D

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dslr%2C%20canon%20dslr%2C%20nikon%20dslr%2C%20jrista&cmpt=q


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## ULFULFSEN (Sep 9, 2014)




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## Woody (Sep 9, 2014)

For Jrista:

2011 Market:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/30/us-canon-results-idUSTRE80T09Q20120130

Thom Hogan (bythom.com) translated Nikon's sale of 4.7 million interchangeable lens cameras as 31% market share. This means Canon's sale of 7.2 million interchangeable lens cameras has a market share of 47.5%. 

2012 Market:
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/why-cp-was-so-grim.html

Total number of interchangeable lens cameras sold = 20.2 million
Canon sold 8.21 million interchangeable lens cameras = 40.6%
Nikon sold 7 million interchangeable lens cameras = 34.7%

2013 Market:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikon-sees-corner-ahead.html

Nikon finished the year with 34% of the interchangeable lens camera market
Not clear how many interchangeable lens cameras were sold by Canon in 2013.

From:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e02480891911

"Canon Inc., today announced that the company's EOS line of interchangeable-lens digital cameras (Digital SLR and compact-system cameras) have consistently maintained the No. 1 share worldwide in terms of volume within the interchangeable-lens digital camera market for the 10-year period from 2003 to 2012."


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## DominoDude (Sep 9, 2014)

dswtan said:


> DominoDude said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have access to any search engine data
> ...



Thanks, I didn't know of those data on Google. And at that time of night (it was laaate) my brain wasn't up to do any digging for reliable info. So you all had to bare with my slightly less reliable reasoning about factors that could have an influence.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > Dylan777 said:
> ...



I rather read your low DR comments over this one. 

I spent about $25K in camera gear through BH, adorama and Samys. Zero on Amazon.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> So, what percentage of Canon's "Imaging" business _excludes_ the video, cinema, printing, etc., and is therefor more directly comparable to Nikon's? Or any other manufacturer of digital still photography cameras? What was the loss just for the digital camera submarket of Canon's imaging business? Was it a mere 13%? Or was it more? Does Canon specifically say DSLRs? Or do they simply say interchangable lens devices? Imaging covers quite a range of devices that use interchangable lenses.



Jrista, I am going to have to spend some time to answer your questions, the different way te reports are presented require analysis.

I've removed my post until I have more time.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



I replaced my original posts with the charts so you can take a shot at it. My numbers do not make sense as I confused units and sales dollars plus mixed Canon actual plus sales projections.

I should not post late at night.

We will drag out the real numbers, its pretty bad for both.


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## Maiaibing (Sep 9, 2014)

fragilesi said:


> This tells me all I need to know ;D
> http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dslr%2C%20canon%20dslr%2C%20nikon%20dslr%2C%20jrista&cmpt=q



LOL! Try doing that with Canon 5D3 and Nikon D810...


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## CanonOregon (Sep 9, 2014)

I think more importantly is who will survive? Even though Nikon is in a tougher spot with a heavy reliance on cameras than Canon or Sony, I think those three survive. Panasonic is broad-based as well. Fuji has other businesses as well. Pentax would seem to have a tough road ahead and may need a partner. That's the real question I'd be concerned with in buying into a system now. The Nikon-Sony alliance could be tricky at some point, who knows, but Sony builds sensors for so many brands maybe they're just happen selling sensors along with their own cameras.
Second, how important is imagining to the market? Oh sure, camera phones but serious imagining? Some would say they do serious imagining with their camera phones but... 
And finally, with the death of the local camera store, who is out there to guide the purchaser today? They're buying those cheap kits with the 18-55mm and a 75-300mm and thinking they can be a wedding or wildlife photographer- I know I worked in a camera store and would have them coming in and asking, "So I want to be a wedding photographer, what camera and lenses should I buy?" Yeah, I'm going into Home Depot and telling them I want to be a home builder, what tools should I buy? 
So, I'd be more concerned about the total health of a company, not who's selling the most dSLRs today.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2014)

Maiaibing said:


> fragilesi said:
> 
> 
> > This tells me all I need to know ;D
> ...



You're right, that is interesting. The announcement time peak of the 5DIII is far higher than that of the D810. The D810's peak is at around the interest level of the 5DIII at 'steady state' nearly two years after its announcement. 

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Canon%205d%20mark%20iii%2C%20Nikon%20d810&cmpt=q

Were you LOL-ing at the relative lack of interest in the D810 compared to the 5DIII? Or were you trying to make the opposite point, perhaps because you use the term "5D3" instead of the correct terminology ("5D Mark III").


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## unfocused (Sep 9, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Were you LOL-ing at the relative lack of interest in the D810 compared to the 5DIII?



I think the LOL is because the search term "JRista" is flatlined. No interest anywhere by anyone apparently.


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## crashpc (Sep 9, 2014)

LOL
That´s all I can say here...


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## tsurumaru (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> Nikon's imaging business is just digital photography (plus accessories).



I just wanted to point out that Nikon Sport Optics exists, http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/index.page

This covers their binocular, scopes, and hunting/rifle optics (which they tend not to advertise openly to avoid controversy).

See http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/the-wrong-kind-of-photo-shoot-nikon-in-the-line-of-fire-over-rifle-sights-for-big-game-hunting-8556123.html 

This is definitely part of their imaging business, see here:

http://nikon.com/about/ir/management/business_info/imaging/index.htm

"Digital cameras, film cameras, interchangeable lenses, speedlights, accessories, software, sport optics"


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## V8Beast (Sep 9, 2014)

I just clicked your link, and 6 of the top 10 were Canon bodies, and 4 were Nikon. I think that means that a list that updates hourly is almost useless


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## Maiaibing (Sep 9, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> term "5D3" instead of the correct terminology ("5D Mark III").



I used both 5d iii and 5d 3. But not "Canon"

When using the above search your results will include a range of Canon DSLR's etc. apart from the 5D3 (see the specification of your results).

Not sure how the search string can be improved - maybe by using qoute marks around 5D Mark III / 3

Any google wizards have a clue?


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2014)

Maiaibing said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > term "5D3" instead of the correct terminology ("5D Mark III").
> ...



Not sure what you mean by 'include a range of Canon DSLR's etc. apart from the 5D3 (see the specification of your results)'. 

Below is a combined search (the yellow is "Canon 5D Mark III" truncated) – other than "D810" obviously meaning something all the way back to 2005, there's no real difference in the conclusion. Note that searching "5D Mark II" vs. "5D Mark III" gives very different results.

EDIT: added second screenshot. You can see that searching "5DIII" or "5D3" is quite different. If those were the terms you used as shorthand for "5D Mark III", that is likely the issue.


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## Don Haines (Sep 9, 2014)

tsurumaru said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Nikon's imaging business is just digital photography (plus accessories).
> ...


Nikon also makes very high quality eyeglass lenses..... I have a pair...


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## DominoDude (Sep 9, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> tsurumaru said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



And they make microscopes -> http://www.nikoninstruments.com/


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## unfocused (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> Canon has the same as well, however the percentage that those subunits contribute to overall sales seems to be trivial.



Are you talking about just the imaging business? Because Canon's other divisions are very large and contribute substantially to the company's bottom line.


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## unfocused (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Yes, except that, at least in Canon's case, they take an integrated business approach. When the worldwide recession hit Canon's office products division hard they were able to use profits from their imaging division to offset losses and weather the storm. With the collapse of the point and shoot market, they have used their office and other divisions to maintain profitability overall. (This was all detailed in past investor calls and reports)

So, one of the main points that Neuro and others have emphasized is that overall profitability of a company is important to consumers because it determines whether or not a company has the resources to invest in R&D and has the reserves to weather changes in the marketplace. 

This is why many of us are willing to cut Canon a little slack over miniscule differences in sensor performance. Because we are taking a long term approach to our investment in the company's equipment and we want the company to remain profitable over that long term. In the end, that results in a better product for us.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 9, 2014)

jrista said:


> Canon does have image stabilized binoculars. I believe they also have microscopes, but that is part of another division, so not counted here. Either way, the binoculars and microsocopes don't seem to contribute much to either companies Imaging divisions.



I have a set of their IS binoculars. 

AFAIK, Canon does not make microscopes. Certainly they don't make them for scientific/research applications. Many other camera/optics vendors do: Nikon, Olympus, Leica and Zeiss for example.


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## lo lite (Sep 9, 2014)

ULFULFSEN said:


> DRR said:
> 
> 
> > Also amazon is a mass market retailer and will be heavily skewed towards the low end of the market. Lots of t5i and T5, but are you going to. Uy a high end pro camera from amazon? i likely wouldn't.
> ...



In Germany we have Calumet which is quite big: http://www.calumetphoto.de/locations/ 

I bought my 5D3 there, they had a better price than Amazon.


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## tsurumaru (Sep 10, 2014)

jrista said:


> Canon has the same as well, however the percentage that those subunits contribute to overall sales seems to be trivial.



That seems to be correct, the last figures I can find seem to show that in 2010 the Sports Optics part of the Nikon Imaging Division was responsible for only 1.2 Billion Yen in income (just under 1%).
However, I wanted to point out to you that both Canon and Nikon have non photography elements within their imaging divisions and your assertion that Nikon's imaging division "is just digital photography (plus accessories)."(as opposed to Canons) is incorrect, and unfair.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 10, 2014)

jrista said:


> By that sentiment, the D800 was a FAR more popular camera than the 5D III when it came out:
> 
> http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Canon%205d%20mark%20iii%2C%20D800&cmpt=q



It was popular, but buyers could not get them. I went to my local camera store, and he got me one in two weeks. I used it for a month with high end Nikon glass, At ISO 100, it was great. But, I was using ISO 12800 in a dark theater, and my 1D MK IV was doing a better job.

I sold the D800 with 5,000 actuations for about $200 more than I paid. That was just before the issue with the off center focus points was revealed. Sales seemed to slump after that. Finally, all those who thought they were going to improve their photography with 36mp, but were frustrated with slow post processing (those high ISO nef images expand to about 200mb) started dumping their cameras. 

I hope the D810 is better, but I've learned my lesson, and do not plan to fall for the wonderful glowing reviews that later turn to harsh criticism.


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## tsurumaru (Sep 10, 2014)

jrista said:


> I think that's playing at semantics a bit. If it's just 1% of the revenue, that is largely meaningless.



You may feel that is the case, but I just honestly wanted to see if you would have the integrity to admit your mistake. 

If you could understand why making a statement where you compare the imaging businesses of both Canon and Nikon and assert that:


jrista]
Nikon's imaging business is just digital photography (plus accessories).[/quote] (Compared to a more diverse Canon portfolio)
Which is factually incorrect as we have seen said:


> I think that's playing at semantics a bit


,


jrista said:


> that is largely meaningless.



As we do not have access to the latest figures we cannot see how Nikon's Sports Optics have faired in their stated goal to expand into new markets such as India and China and whether they have been able to increase their global market share, and therefore what their current contribution towards Nikon Imaging's total income is.

Anyhow I'm not going to post further on this matter as my sole aim was to try to understand if you were capable of critical thought, I will leave others to draw their own conclusions.


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## Maui5150 (Sep 10, 2014)

The Amazon metrics do not have any real basis as the driver is really new camera releases, which Canon for the most part has been limited in the last few years at the top end of their lines which is where Canon really drives sales - i.e. 1Dx, 5D MKIII, 7D. Yes there has been 6D, 60D, 70D, t5i, etc... and say with the 70D, I think a lot of that has been for video, but again, what I see as a general formula is

New top body = sales (X) +.5x Prior Body Upgrade.

As an example, when the 810 came out I saw a ton of 800s for sale, just as there were a ton of 5D MK IIs for sale, when the 5D MK III came out.

Even though a lot of people have moved on from the 7D, a lot of people have held on or maybe gone a bridge model, but if Canon releases a decent replacement, you can expect to see not only a lot of sales of that camera, but a lot of 7Ds as well. 

Amazon also tends to be more of a consumer market than a Pro / Prosumer - as a point of reference, no 1Dx of D4 D4s D3 D3x in the top 100.


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## fragilesi (Sep 10, 2014)

jrista said:


> I think that is one of Nikon's biggest problems. They have had supply issues for years. If it wasn't for Nikon supply issues, I might have purchased a Nikon camera back in 2008. I ended up getting the 450D for a steal, and it was in stock all the time, so I ended up a Canon fan. If Nikon had kept their cameras in-stock at the local stores, I'd have probably had one quite some time before I settled on the 450D. (Although, sadly, that might have been because I was a naive twit at the time...and almost listened to...*shudder*...Ken Rockwell! )
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think this is a cracking example of what people are saying when challenged with Canon's supposed lack of innovation. We've got into this consumer thing of wanting the latest, greatest stuff quickly. A company that can deliver what they do reliably with the highest quality is always going to be at disadvantage when compared with those that chase the latest shiny thing beyond their means to support it. And I know which I prefer.


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## moreorless (Sep 10, 2014)

Maui5150 said:


> The Amazon metrics do not have any real basis as the driver is really new camera releases, which Canon for the most part has been limited in the last few years at the top end of their lines which is where Canon really drives sales - i.e. 1Dx, 5D MKIII, 7D. Yes there has been 6D, 60D, 70D, t5i, etc... and say with the 70D, I think a lot of that has been for video, but again, what I see as a general formula is
> 
> New top body = sales (X) +.5x Prior Body Upgrade.
> 
> ...



A good point, Canon's path of less frequent upgrades likely means sales get compressed into smaller time frames. In the last 12 months Nikon have released the D4s, D810, D610, Df, D7100, D5300, D3300, V3, J4 and S2 where as Canon have only released the 70D, 1200D and M2.

The production delays for the 70D sensor are I'd guess a big factor here, in the next 12 months we'll likely see a 7D mk2, a Rebel and 1-2 M bodies with that sensor or something similar plus potentially FF updates as well.


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## tsurumaru (Sep 10, 2014)

My posts might be limited, but I have lurked on here for a number of years, I'd rather lurk than post tripe.



jrista said:


> Looking into Nikon's business structure...and as far as I can tell from their web site, imaging and sports are separate divisions.


You clearly weren't looking very hard, their Businesses are listed in their financial reports which you seem to have indicated you had read and on their website which I previously linked for you. I and others have clearly pointed out to you that Nikon Sport Optics falls under their Imaging Business.



jrista said:


> So, my original assessment is correct. Nikon's "Imaging" business is just that...imaging. There are no sports optics or other parts of their business lumped in with the imaging revenues.



Your arrogance is sickening, your original assessment is completely incorrect, and you should take a long hard look at how you interact with others.

Here is a visual breakdown of Nikon's product businesses from their own website:

http://nikon.com/about/ir/management/business_info/index.htm

Where is Sports Optics positioned? Is it in their Precision Equipment Business, no, how about their Instruments Business, no again, well its got to be under other businesses right? Oh wait, it forms part of their Imaging Products Business and is listed as such under their financial reports too.

Just in case you think this structure was different before 2014:

http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/ar/pdf/ar2012/12annual_e.pdf

Page 57
"4. During the consolidated fiscal year ended March 31, 2012, the sport optics products business, formerly included in “Other” business, was transferred to the “Imaging Products” business. Due to this change, the segment information for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2011 was prepared according to the revised business segment. As a result of revising the business segments, sales to outside customers, intersegment sales or transfers, segment profits, segment assets, depreciation and amortization, and increase in tangible/intangible fixed assets for the Imaging Products Business increased by ¥553 million, ¥14 million, ¥1,226 million, ¥655 million, ¥267 million, and ¥150 million, respectively."


Please continue your discussions with other members, I'm out.


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## mkabi (Sep 10, 2014)

Lesson learned. Adding fuel to the fire, gets some of the fuel onto your clothes, thereby burning yourself


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## Diko (Sep 11, 2014)

I had an uber cool post somewhere here.... I've lost it. Darn tablets.... Need to fix my PC. :-(

Well never mind... 



> Q: What are the major growth areas in the image sensor business in 2014/5?
> 
> A: Along with general market growth in the volume segments, there is a trend towards physically larger sensors to improve all around performance. While the pixel-count war is not dead, the top mobile OEMS have seen the light. Smaller pixels matter, but are being seen as enablers for unique features rather than just a way to use more power and memory, while larger pixels are getting the credit they deserve for image quality.


_An interview with the vice president of Aptina_

NIKON and CANON are still quite quiet about it..... And NIKON either just broke with SONY... and SONY is not sharing any food... I mean MF SENSOR with NIKON.... or we are awaiting the big bang there....

As for CANON: I say they are not STUPID they just need time to prepare a few descent L glasses for MF.

What does it has to do with this topic: Nothing and everything. 

Nothing - I am talking about tech and about no market shares...

Everything - the trend setter gets the market pie. And the one is: PENTAX! MF with ISO of 200K. Not a bad idea.
unfortinatly Sensorgen haven't tested that awesome SONY MF CMOS... so we are quite away from understanding both its market and technology potential.

As for statistics.... WHY Amazon?!?!? I always have imagined you as prosumer. How many times have you bought a body there admit it? 

Like 75% of this post's readers aren't B&H clients.... Come on! You don't have enough info to discuss it here. 
Even e-bay stats might give you better understanding for the market leaders than Amazon. 

And that is for the brave users. 

ON the other hand are people like me who don't like their DSRL bodies without warranty.


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## Diko (Sep 11, 2014)

I have to admit I totally forgot the tele-photo dep. even though I am a proud owner of them L series representatives (read as "heavy") when I was thinking about MF. 

When I read your post I was like sh#$t he is right!...

And I like saving a dollar whenever I can! So I saved one or two $ the white beauties. Got quite lucky on those dark risky deals. 

However you know what makes me darn crazy every time when thinking about it:

Why is everyone in town producing those lovely GoPro like little cameras. Even HP!?!?!

And why such an important company like as CANON with all of its image and potential refuses to conquer this sweet pie?


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## raptor3x (Sep 11, 2014)

jrista said:


> By that sentiment, the D800 was a FAR more popular camera than the 5D III when it came out:
> 
> http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Canon%205d%20mark%20iii%2C%20D800&cmpt=q



I'll bet good money that it's because there's way more variations on the 5D3's name than the D800.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 11, 2014)

Jrista

After looking again at the Canon and Nikon quarterly reports, You are correct in that we cannot get exact figures, but we can get ballpark figures.

Canon says 82% of their 227 billion yen sales was for Interchangable lens digital cameras which includes lenses sold as well. We don't know how many of these are video or cinema cameras though.

This males for $186.14 billion yen.


Nikon sold 134.17 billion yen worth of digital cameras, and 60% of these were Interchangeable lens cameras including lenses. Assuming the same value ratio that Canon used. (82%), then Nikon sold about 111 billion yen worth of DSLR's and lenses. This is all interchangeable lens cameras, so it includes mirrorless.

So, Canon sold close to 186.14 billion yen worth of interchangeable lens cameras including lenses, and this likely includes video and cinema cameras.

Nikon sold on the order of 111 billion Yen worth of DSLR's including lenses.

If Canon sales for video cameras was 10% (Just grabbed a number), then their DSLR sales figure drops to about 167.5 billion yen. 

So, Canon sold more dollars worth of DSLR's than Nikon's total Digital camera sales.

Those figures assuredly are not precise, but no matter how you finagle them, Canon sales for DSLR's will beat Nikon.

Have you looked at Sony figures (I haven't)? It might be interesting to see if they are now a major player.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2014)

jrista said:


> It still doesn't change the fact that we cannot directly compare ILC camera sales to ILC camera sales across businesses. ... If we had the ability to identify what Nikon's Sports Optics revenues were...and concurrently identify what Canon's Security Cam, Reference Display, Projector, IJP, and IS Binos revenues were, we could then subtract those and produce a number we could compare directly between these two companies.
> 
> That's all I care about here. Knowing apples-to-apples how the two companies ILC sales compare.



You're correct that there a true apples-to-apples comparison isn't feasible with the data the two companies present. For Canon, we can calculate the total sales of ILCs (cameras + lenses) in billions of yen (B¥) from their public data. They present data for 'cameras' and a breakdown of value base of ILCs (including lenses) vs compact cameras. The other items you list are excluded – security cameras are in another business unit; IJPs, projecters, etc., are in Imaging but displayed separately (IJPs in their own category, projectors, etc. as Other). For Canon during the period Apr 2013 - Mar 2014 (Canon's 2Q13 - 1Q14), their *ILC+lenses sales are 820 B¥*.

Canon doesn't provide unit sales data; they do provide a percentage of ILC vs. compact units, but not the total units sold. However, Canon has stated that they have maintained the #1 position in unit sales of ILC+lenses for the past 11 years. Since they know how many units they've sold (even if they don't publish those data), and Nikon _does_ publish the number of units sold so Canon knows that too, we can assume they aren't lying.

We cannot really calculate Nikon's ILC sales in billions of yen, because while they provide unit sales numbers broken down for ILCs, lenses, and compact cameras, they _don't_ break down the sales revenues. However, for Nikon during the period Apr 2013 - Mar 2014 (Nikon's FY2014), their *total Imaging System sales were 685 B¥*. 




jrista said:


> We still need a comparable revenue dollar value for a subdivision of BOTH companies, which we don't have, which renders the whole "market share" argument that claims Canon is still utterly trouncing the competition in the ILC business suspect at best, and invalid at worst.



Canon's sales of ILCs + lenses for the Apr 2013 - Mar 2014 was 820 B¥, which is 20% higher than Nikon's total Imaging system revenue of 685 B¥ for the same period, from which the revenues from compact cameras, etc. would need to be subtracted. 

Nikon's unit base for ILCs seems to be ~30% of total camera sales, and Canon's unit base for ILCs is ~40% of total camera sales. Canon's value base for ILCs is ~80%, Nikon's should be lower given that their unit base is lower, but if we just assume guess that it's 80%, that puts Nikon's sales of ILCs + lenses at ~548 B¥. If that's true, Canon's sales of ILCs + lenses are ~50% higher than Nikon's. About the only thing you might argue could/should be subtracted from the Canon revenue would be the Cinema EOS line ("interchangeable lens digital cameras" excludes consumer video cameras, camcorders, etc. becuase they don't have interchangeable lenses)...and their Cinema EOS line is likely accounting for only a very small portion of their revenues. Even if you assume that Cinema EOS accounts for 10% of the ILC revenue (and that's probably unrealistically high), Canon's 'stills' ILC revenues are still 35% higher than Nikon's.

So, from the data available we can estimate that Canon's sales in the ILC segment are at least 20% and possibly up to 50% higher than Nikon's. Despite the aspersions you're casting on it, I'd say the market share argument has significant validity.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 11, 2014)

jrista said:


> Hmm...I think your percentages are off. According to this report:
> 
> http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2014/rslt2014q2e.pdf
> 
> Page S3, the percentage of the imaging division for cameras (which includes lenses, camcorders, Cinema EOS, etc.) was 67%, not 82%. If that's the case, it puts the total number down to 124.7by. Much smaller difference between the two companies.



What you are quoting is a percentage of total Imaging System sales. In the quarterly presentation material, they provide a "value base" that ranges between 79-84% over a few quarters of camera sales, and that is what Mt. Spokane is referring to. That value base applies to "interchangeable lens digital cameras" (including lenses), so that excludes camcorders.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 11, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm...I think your percentages are off. According to this report:
> ...



Yes, Canon quotes a percentage by value of 82% while Nikon reports overall sales value, but gives sales of cameras by unit not their value. I calculated that 60% of the units sold were DSLR's and lenses. Canon said that 82% of the income generated from camera sales was due to interchangeable lens sales. The problem was to get Nikon sales from numbers of cameras/lenses sold to a dollar value. I assumed that the same 82% of total cameras sales income that Canon quoted would get me in the ballpark for Nikon DSLR Sales $$.

Those figures are very confusing.

R&D is something totally different, it comes out of a different financial pool and may not be relatated to sales of specific product lines. I'm sure that each division gets a share, but it may also be calculated on which division needs it to reach company goals. Cinema is listed as a Canon goal, so lots of R&D dollars are likely going into cinema. All the new STM lenses with IS are definitely aimed at the low end video market, and were probably prioritized in the R&D dollar distribution.


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## Maiaibing (Sep 12, 2014)

jrista said:


> just like Canon, they are repositioning their ILC cameras to pick up the slack, which means GROWTH on the DSLR front. For both companies.



No. Canon expects their DSLR sales to crash with just over 11% this year according to their pre 2014 year-to-year market guidance. Since they have not sent out any corrections on projected sales for 2014 the general number should still be close to 8 mill. DSLR units 2014.

I think it is remarkable how Nikon DSLR sales exploded in 2013 given how Canon's are imploding from 2012 to 2013 and 2014. From being the undisputed market leader Canon will lag Nikon in DSLR sales by a margin in 2015 unless Canon reverses the current trend (if the Nikon numbers given above are correct).


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