# A New EOS Pro Body With 46mp Next Month? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 17, 2014)

```
A <a  href="http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1318815/0"  target="_blank">thread  has  popped  up  on  a  forum</a>  talking  about  a  46mp  pro  Canon  DSLR  being  launched  in  New  York  City  in  October  for  PhotoPlus.  It’s  also  mentioned  that  the  camera  will  cost  in  the  range  of  $8000-$9000  USD.  I  have  no  idea  if  this  is  a  troll  or  not,  but  it  will  surely  appear  other  places  so  I  might  as  well  post  it.</p>
<p>If  the  <a  href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/09/is-this-a-canon-ef-11-24-f4l/"  target="_blank">EF  11-24  f/4L  is  indeed  real</a>,  then  it  makes  sense  to  announce  it  with  a  full  frame  camera.</p>
<p>If  it’s  true,  there  will  be  more  to  come.</p>
<p><strong><span  style="color:  #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## SwampYankee (Sep 17, 2014)

yup, heard that 3D rumor in 2012. Elvis will be back to present it.


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## Don Haines (Sep 17, 2014)

If they had the camera, it would have been announced at Photokina.......


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 17, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> If they had the camera, it would have been announced at Photokina.......



Canon rarely makes a big splash at Photokina for whatever reason. The last time I was at the show it was the 60D. In 2012 is was the 6D which got trashed at announcement.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 17, 2014)

8000-9000$ wow. 

I guess that will make the possible D800 switcher not very happy.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 17, 2014)

Too much MP for my taste.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 17, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> If they had the camera, it would have been announced at Photokina.......



In the past, Canon has almost always split 1 series and other series announcements though and has had them a month apart, I believe.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 17, 2014)

Question, when the 1Ds X really has 46MP, how big is that chance that the 5D MK4 will be in the 30 MP range?

If the 46MP rumor is true it seems Canon is stepping away from their 20-22 MP are enough mantra?

Or is this maybe a 14 MP Foveon sensor?
But that would make no sense.


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## ScottyP (Sep 17, 2014)

Some guy no one knows makes an account calling himself "Psychic1" and posts a statement with absolutely no backstory on how he comes to know this. They seem inordinately excited by very thin rumors there on FM.


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## keriboi (Sep 17, 2014)

3D with layered sensor. This is what was being tested in the fashion houses.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 17, 2014)

ScottyP said:


> Some guy no one knows makes an account calling himself "Psychic1" and posts a statement with absolutely no backstory on how he comes to know this. They seem inordinately excited by very thin rumors there on FM.



He is not new.
If im not wrong he is also on DPreview.

At least both are from NY.
And the DPreview Psycho1 is also active on FM forum (thought i could not verify if under the same nickname) he linked to old sales threads on FM forum who are not longer active.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 17, 2014)

ScottyP said:


> Some guy no one knows makes an account calling himself "Psychic1" and posts a statement with absolutely no backstory on how he comes to know this. They seem inordinately excited by very thin rumors there on FM.



I don't know "Psychic1" personally, but I do know of him on that forum. I have no idea if he's a reliable source of information.

However, stuff like this will end up on other sites, and I'll be emailed about those articles and those articles will appear on this forum and I'll have to address it one way or another. I might as well just get all of that out of the way.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 17, 2014)

Its interesting that Fred Miranda posted that he trusts the OP more than the Rumor sites. The poster is a long time FM member.


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## pleasehelp (Sep 17, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> ScottyP said:
> 
> 
> > Some guy no one knows makes an account calling himself "Psychic1" and posts a statement with absolutely no backstory on how he comes to know this. They seem inordinately excited by very thin rumors there on FM.
> ...



You have contacted him?


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## GmanKY (Sep 18, 2014)

It's interesting that this article popped just now. Over the weekend, I was doing some serious looking at possibly switching (more like buy an extra body) to the 810, but I'm really invested in Canon. I do landscapes and go big with prints, so I want/need the resolution. I went back through Canon's history, and the past several cycles of the 1D cameras has been every couple of years, and the past couple have been announced in October. So, I decided this weekend to hold off until after Christmas before making any other purchases. I have a bunch of L glass to go with my current bodies, but maybe if I do get the 810, I could get by with just a couple of Nikon or Zeiss lenses. I just hate to switch and sink $ into another system, but I'm also tired of waiting for Canon to quit recycling old sensors and finally move forward a good step. 46MP sensor would be huge, and this is not the first time I've heard that number tossed around. Seems like I read somewhere around 4-6 months ago that there was a 46MP body in the wild for testing. I guess we'll soon see.


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## NancyP (Sep 18, 2014)

Well, that would be interesting.


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## mkabi (Sep 18, 2014)

If this rumor is true, it makes sense... it fits the upper end of the EOS line up.
I mean, I'm sure people were switching to Nikon due to D800/D810, but the number of people was still too small in comparison to all the other cameras Canon was selling, which is probably why they are going to introduce it at $8-9K. Might even be special order, made on demand?? Like the 1DC (non-refundable)?

If this is true, don't expect the 5D4 or the 1DX2 to be announced till 2016/2017.
I expect the t6i and probably 1 or 2 cinema cams to be announced in 2015.


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## Arkarch (Sep 18, 2014)

Good to hear a possibility of an announcement. The one-month-apart note earlier in this forum is notable.

I have no reason to switch out of Canon. I have a very nice collection of EF-compatible glass (see sig) and do Motorsports along with landscape - a 1DX is under consideration. I have every confidence Canon will produce something that makes us Canon folk happy - though Photokina was sure a let down for the Full-framers.

In the meantime, I have decided to rent the A7R for mission-critical landscape trips. I do a few of these a year so the cumulative rental price is worth it while I wait for that Canon-wonder. For everything else, and the weekend-runs, the 5Dm3 does me well. Not sure what to do with my old 7D.

Now if I could see a Lucia Ex update for the Pro-1, I'd be very very happy! (hard-proofing before sending on to my large format vendor).


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> There's one other thing we can almost be certain of: this sensor is HIGHLY unlikely to end up in the 5D4. Canon lost a bunch of 1DsIII sales to the 5D2 and I can't see them doing that again.



But what then? They lose all sales to D810 and Sony?
They can't just have some 8k camera that offers high MP and high DR and expect that to compete with the $2000-2500 stuff. The 8k cam might also have high fps and this and that and be the best, but 8k is simply too much for most people to afford no matter how much they'd love to get it (and some don't like mega large bodies).

Isn't it better to have 85,000 sales of 5D4 than 4000 sales of 1DsX?


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## PureClassA (Sep 18, 2014)

Well that's certainly interesting.... And given the release date history, it's certainly plausible some FF announcement is forthcoming. 46MP would be insane though. Dx upgrades like 150 AF and 15FPS? Heh. Should be fun if it happens. But 8-9k???


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## raptor3x (Sep 18, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Its interesting that Fred Miranda posted that he trusts the OP more than the Rumor sites. The poster is a long time FM member.



Probably because he called that the 7D2 would use a 70D like sensor and all the major improvements would be in the AF and FPS while CR was talking about Foveon sensors.


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## PureClassA (Sep 18, 2014)

It certainly COULD be a MF competitor though NOT a MF sensor. A sensor that is capable of yielding damn near MF image quality BUT being able to retain your giant selection of EF lenses .... and have a great crop camera (18MP crops !!) with fast FPS for sports. Think of the folks who buy a 5D3 for critical work like portraiture and landscapes, and still get a 1DX (and possibly a 7D) for sports and action... 

8k to them would be a real bargain.


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## mkabi (Sep 18, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > There's one other thing we can almost be certain of: this sensor is HIGHLY unlikely to end up in the 5D4. Canon lost a bunch of 1DsIII sales to the 5D2 and I can't see them doing that again.
> ...



How do you know that Canon is losing people to D810 and Sony?
Lets be honest, you can go back to 2010 (like Neuro posted somewhere) and you will see people DRoning on about the lack of DR in Canon compared to Nikon from before 2008 (there is proof of this... actual proof). It hasn't improved since then... what makes you think that will change any time soon? And, obviously, increasing MP is not going to improve that... 
If DR is what you are looking for... then by all means Nikon is your brand... go towards the light...

With that said, if you increase MP, there is a chance you are going to hurt those high ISOs (if daytime landscape photography is your only need for a camera, I'm not even...)
And, there are those that will complain about the large file sizes taking up too much hard drive space, thereby increasing the need for other resources to work with such files... all in all, it might hurt rather than inflate 5D sales... so your 5D4 could only sell 4000 units.

Go to Tony Northups youtube page and look up that video of why he can't switch to Nikon, even though he wants to...


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## Steve (Sep 18, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> Probably because he called that the 7D2 would use a 70D like sensor and all the major improvements would be in the AF and FPS while CR was talking about Foveon sensors.



Uh, no, pretty much everybody everywhere was saying the same thing about the 7DII - ie better AF + FPS but no real sensor improvement. The 7DII is about exactly what I, and most people, expected which is why no one was really excited by it.


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## Bruce Photography (Sep 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
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Your numbers showing that by using the same pixel density that is already in Canon's APS-C format cameras but producing a full frame sensor with the same pixel density should produce a sensor in the range of that rumor. I think that Nikon probably had that choice but decided to back off to 36MP to retain a higher DR and also not to "frighten" those out their that said there were "Too Many Megapixels - my little slow computer couldn't handle those 40+mp files." And don't waste my time in quoting the "uncompressed" size which I never use and can never understand why anyone would use it. 14 bit non-loss compression works great on all the D800 line.

If Canon did this, I would probably buy it. Canon at this point may feel that it is now time for Canon to truly establish dominance even if they don't sell a boatload. With a price like that they will have a great profit margin and have something to take to every trade show and not just a fast APS-C camera.


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## eml58 (Sep 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> Dylan777 said:
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> 
> > Too much MP for my taste.
> ...



Completely agree, totally.

This would be a Pro Body, main competitors being the Phase One IQ250, Pentax 645z & Haselblad H5D, basically anything with the Sony 50MP CMOS Sensor in it (and you can bet good money that Sony are about to drop that Sensor into their own body, sooner not later), is that worth competing with ?? I think so, I hope Canon does as well.

Price ??, about right, Competes well with the price of the 645z, certainly competes more than well with the Phase One & Haselblad (Sony will do it for 1/3 the price, but that have zero Lenses to match without Zeiss).

Will it happen, no idea, but I certainly hope so.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 18, 2014)

eml58 said:


> jrista said:
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Edward & jrista,
Sold my a7r last week(keeping my FE55). I plan to add a7s in future. I guess I'm more into high ISO than DR.


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## jrista (Sep 18, 2014)

eml58 said:


> jrista said:
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It would have to have a large sensor to really compete, though. Put a 50mp FF and 50mp 44x33mm MF head to head, and the MF is going to win. The Sony 50mp MF in the backs or MF cameras from any one of those companies would pulverize a Canon 50mp FF in any IQ comparisons. Again, that boils down to equivalence...more total light for a given subject framing, better IQ. Pixel counts really wouldn't matter.


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## PureClassA (Sep 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> Dylan777 said:
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> > eml58 said:
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Amen! I'd love to know too! Thought about doing an A7R for video with my EF lens kit.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> Dylan777 said:
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> > eml58 said:
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One interesting thing about the A7S is it has extremely detailed and aliasing free 4k video (although only 8bit not 10bit and you do need a $2000 attachment to record it). But man, it's like looking out a window! (it also has 1080p with internal recording, no ML RAW like the 5D3 has, but for in cam recorded non-RAW 1080p it's probably the best I've ever seen from a DSLR in every regard, the best SNR and best detail while also being free from aliasing, but if you are willing to deal with RAW video, the 5D3 with ML gives a pretty darn good 1080p, the best of any DSLR IMO)

It's only time before they have an A7S2 that has internal 4k recording too.


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## unfocused (Sep 18, 2014)

ScottyP said:


> Some guy no one knows makes an account calling himself "Psychic1" and posts a statement with absolutely no backstory on how he comes to know this. They seem inordinately excited by very thin rumors there on FM Canon Rumors.



Corrected the post. Now the CR rating should be corrected to "0"


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## peederj (Sep 18, 2014)

I think Canon has to do something like this, not only to finally respond to the D800 (they've also just gotten around to responding to the RX100...seems their intel is poor these days), but to motivate glass sales, as we will then have a 135 camera that exposes the limitations of the current generation of glass well.

With gapless microlenses I don't think pixel pitch is as much of a low-light/DR problem as people make it out to be. The per-pixel DR will have a lower maximum of course, but when downsampled to a delivery resolution the DR increases proportionally again. This is why the D800 sensor has a very competitive DR regardless. And the current generation of sensors has remarkable DR even with a very high pixel pitch. I wouldn't worry so much about that...the doubling of pixels will mostly affect your storage requirements for RAW. And storage is getting cheap fast and quick weekly.

And yes the FF wide zoom (11-24/4) and this is aimed squarely at landscape just like the 7D2 is at action. This will also be a very good studio portrait and weddings camera. How long will it take Sony to release a new sensor to jump ahead again?


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## digigal (Sep 18, 2014)

dilbert said:


> jrista said:
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Several months ago I rented the A7R + Metabones adapter for my Canon lenses and a Zeiss Lens to take to NYC to play with for a week from Borrowlenses.com Great service--highly recommend them. 
Catherine


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## cellomaster27 (Sep 18, 2014)

I think that this is really exciting! And for ppl on here, remember this is canon RUMORS, not canon fact. Isn't it for news like this that we (I) keep coming back here for?? ;D Just say that this camera, whatever its called, comes through. Seeing the 100-400mm II and 11-24mm would make alot of sense with this camera. Keep em rumors coming!


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## dolina (Sep 18, 2014)

If they move to CFast memory cards then the read/write limitation of CF cards wont be an issue for a 46MP body with a high continuous shooting/burst rate.

Although those CFast cards are sure are expensive. ATOMOS 64GB 200MB/s read * 80MB/s write CFast card goes for $160 while Lexar 256GB 510MB/s read & 370MB/s writes goes for $1300.


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## 9VIII (Sep 18, 2014)

We know that Canon has had the ability to release large sensors with huge resolution for many years now, I can only hope they deem the market ready for one sooner rather than later.
I still suspect that their timing is connected to both the FPS that they can get with their current processors, and the price of memory.
The 1Dx at 36MP would only get 6FPS, maybe (hopefully) they just don't think that anything less is worthy of a 1D anymore. And if they're pushing 50-100MB files on people, 64GB memory cards had better be cheap.


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## PureClassA (Sep 18, 2014)

I'll speak only for myself here ... IF IF IF IF this rumor pans out to be even 75% accurate (36MP 1DX) I will buy it in pre order. Here's why:

Most of what I do is simple artistic and portraiture. My 6D works fabulously for 90% of my work load. HOWEVER - I do once or twice a year rent a 1DX to shoot a super fast action, professionally staged (lighting) dance recital weekend that typically yields 8000 frames in a weekend. 

If I can get the resolve of a high grade portrait camera and the obscene AF and radical light performance of a 1DX ... I'm in. All in. If this rumor is true the money will fly out of my corporate account faster than the IRS can tax it.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 18, 2014)

I don't understand everybody grizzling about the price. In 2002, yes 12 years ago, the 1Ds was released at $7,999, and it commanded a premium for quite a while. In 2004 the 1Ds MkII was released at $7,999, and it commanded a premium for quite a while. In 2007 the 1Ds MkIII was released at $7,999, and it commanded a premium for quite a while.

That is what pro photographers and keen hobbyists have been paying for well over ten years for Canon's top of the line 1 Series camera. There is so much pent up demand for the true 1Ds MkIII successor I suspect there will be unprecedented demand for this camera, if it is real, that they will trade at a premium and no deals will be had for a couple of years.

Personally, even though I am a 1Ds MkIII user and have been for years, I am more interested in the 1Dx MkII as I have no real desire to go over the mid 20's in MP and would prefer the higher fps. But, if it is a killer camera I could see me getting one of each.


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## deleteme (Sep 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> Remember the rumored price range is eight to nine THOUSAND. You could pick up a D810 and 14-24mm f/2.8 for six grand, and pocket the extra two grand.
> 
> If this rumor is true, then this definitely is not a D800 series competitor. If anything, given the price, this sounds more along the lines of one of those Canon medium format rumors than anything...price wise it sounds like it would compete with the Pentax MFDs.



I was going to say at that price I might as well go for the Pentax 645z and a few lenses. For me high res is always on a tripod with LV focus. A 1D series body would have little benefit to me.


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## Arkarch (Sep 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> dilbert said:
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Just rented an A7R + metabones and remote from LR. Good way to cover the sensor gap for critical trips.


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## kaihp (Sep 18, 2014)

That body should be called 1DXs, not 1Ds X - after all, it will have pixels INXS! ;D


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 18, 2014)

... I'm one more pro hoping and wishing the rumor turns into reality... I know... get in (the very long) line... ;D

But what smells "fishy" to me is that an announcement would come next month. Why not make a development announcement at Photokina? Why not announce/leak/promise something in August?

... and speaking of "soon to be announced at Photokina" rumors... what happened to:

Sigma - Art 85mm? Art 24-70 f/2?

Sony - Curved sensor Wonder Cameras? Medium Format mirrorless?

Fuji - Medium Format camera? 24mpixel 100T?

At least those seemed plausible, didn't they? Yet, where are they? Has camera/gear sales dropped so fast that no one is investing in R&D like they used to?


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## tomscott (Sep 18, 2014)

I think everyone is getting carried away here.

I can't see Canon creating this camera. Even if it is a pro body the price is too high and the game has changed and Canon needs to move with it. 

Why would they introduce a new sensor tech and left the 7DMKII for the next 5 years with a modified last gen sensor. Doesn't make sense to me… 

Canon need to respond but the fact we've barely heard anything about this camera since the 1Ds MKIII was discontinued… 

Don't get your hopes up… again.


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## wockawocka (Sep 18, 2014)

I don't care how many megapixels it has, it's the quality of those pixels.

If Canon made a camera that was 18mp and totally clean ISO up to 51200 I'd pay 10k for that in a heartbeat.


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## Viggo (Sep 18, 2014)

I paid USD 8249 for my 1dX two years ago, today it's USD 8249, there's a reason they can do that. And I think it's a smart move by Canon, because when the new model comes out I still get a lot back for my 1dx and can afford to upgrade, if it dropped, the used priced dropped and I would NEVER be able justify buying the new one. I can sell my 1dx here tomorrow for USD 6300.


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 18, 2014)

A quick 2 questions: 

1) Has anyone asked Canon directly why they don't offer a higher-mpixel camera? Asking someone other than a marketing guy, that is.

2) Has anyone from Canon provided a clear, reasonable reply to why their current product offering is as good, if not better than Nikon/Sony at 36mpixel (rumored to soon go to 46mpixel)?

A link to something (Presentation? Whitepaper? Engineering paper?) would be great. I'd like to take the time to understand (as best I can) why Canon is "stuck" in it's current position.


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## heptagon (Sep 18, 2014)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> A quick 2 questions:
> 
> 1) Has anyone asked Canon directly why they don't offer a higher-mpixel camera? Asking someone other than a marketing guy, that is.
> 
> ...



1) Only public relation persons are allowed to speak to the public. If an engineer answers he'll lose his job and possibly get a big lawsuit.

2) It still sells well enough, so it must be good enough. Looking at the sensor alone, Canon is way behind in some important areas. In my opinion they should adapt a Sony sensor for a high density studio/landscaping body. This would make many people happy.


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## Ebrahim Saadawi (Sep 18, 2014)

LinuxRu said:


> ChristopherMarkPerez said:
> 
> 
> > A quick 2 questions:
> ...




Nice first post. Welcome to the forum


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## GMCPhotographics (Sep 18, 2014)

Wow....so many negative comments from one post wonders!


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 18, 2014)

1) I realize that folks can't talk "off the record" without getting canned. But having worked for high tech companies (semi-conductors, test and measurement gear) sometimes engineers or scientists are sent around to explain things at a level of detail that the marketing guys can't.

2) Indeed, if things are selling well, why worry? That's to be expected. And yet Sony continues to innovate.

OK. I did some more research after posting my questions. I feel comfortable with the answers I found.

Basically, what it comes down to is this: Photo-sensor production is a highly skilled, very costly process. Some years ago Canon said just one of the machines in their fab cost upwards of 30million USD each. They needed 20 to meet production goals. And like all micro-electronics, the entire process is a nightmare to manage all the variables that _will_ get you (one way or another).

So the approach is _not_ much different than that taken by Intel or AMD or HP or IBM. Since I feel I understand the various arguments for/against new equipment purchases in chip production, I also feel I can understand why a company would be shy about sinking more money into fab gear, until, that is, the sharp pointy pencil guys "upstairs" say the cost tradeoffs are in line with projected revenue gains.

Yes, there is MUCH more to it than all this, but this is a start.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Sony wanted to get into the photo-imaging game. Let's say they were willing to make a fresh/new investment in the latest sensor fab technologies. Let's say they have deep/rich history in electronics (which they clearly do) and can manage an entire process of design, raw materials, supplier relationships, and quality control (which, to varying degrees of success, they can). Let's say they knew 8inch wafer fabs were being replaced by 12 inch fab lines, so they buy whatever was the latest and greatest. Their production capacity would be greatly increased over someone still running an 8inch wafter fab.

We know Canon was running sensor production on 8inch wafters back at the introduction of the 5D and 1Ds cameras. We also know that Canon could only get 20 FF sensors off an 8inch wafer. If any one of those parts were defective, the yields would drop through the floor. We also know that Canon could get well over 200 APS-C sensors off the same sized wafer. If a few parts failed QA, yields might not be impacted too terribly while the process engineers sort out what's gone wrong.

The question I now have is did they spend the money on 12 fabs (or larger) or are they STILL running the old, small tech?

Let's say for the sake of argument that Sony figured out a way to design a circuit that helped manage random noise (which is a real bugger, apparently) that shows up in CMOS sensors. Let's also say that Canon has yet to find the same "magic" electronics circuit answer.

I can't imagine what Sony has invested in their sensor fab. They clearly knew the costs and wanted to balance the risks. They're making it work, perhaps in part due to their ability to offer finished product (sensors) to anyone who's willing to pay their parts prices. Canon, OTOH, doesn't seem to sell their sensors to anyone else. Their sales opportunities are limited to their own production.

This back of the envelope argument makes sense to me in light of Canon's current inability to keep up with Sony.

When in a niche market that is in the state of decline, it's a very very tough "sell" to the sharp-pointy-pencil guys on the need to open the purse and fund yet more R&D and more hugely costly tools of production.

But... the more I think about it, this _is_, afterall, Canon's chosen line of work. So I'll assume for a moment that their sensor fab tech is fine. If it is, my guess is Canon is having difficulty with the process itself. Something about too few good parts or needing to iron out a few wrinkles that inevitably arise when you try to scale technologies like these.

Still, if Canon hasn't found a way to offer a commercial product with more pixels and Sony (already) has, I'll likely add more Sony gear to my pool of toys. Afterall, if they've figured out how to keep us happy in the Banner Specs Wars, why not? Right?



heptagon said:


> ChristopherMarkPerez said:
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> > A quick 2 questions:
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## lo lite (Sep 18, 2014)

pleasehelp said:


> Question, when the 1Ds X really has 46MP, how big is that chance that the 5D MK4 will be in the 30 MP range?
> 
> If the 46MP rumor is true it seems Canon is stepping away from their 20-22 MP are enough mantra?
> 
> ...



Read this article (google translated) to understand why it doesn't make sense to go much higher than 30-something megapixels on full frame:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photoscala.de%2FArtikel%2FWie-viele-Megapixel-verkraftet-eine-Kamera&edit-text=&act=url

It's the laws of optics you won't be able to break.

note: full frame translates to small image in the article because the german word for 24x36 is also Kleinbild.


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## dufflover (Sep 18, 2014)

If it is meant to be a 1-series style D800, not sure it's a good sign on the potential DR front if going off that earlier post it has the same pixel density as an 18MP APS-C sensor. I don't think I need to point out what's not good on seeing that number again LOL


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 18, 2014)

If this were true, you'd expect the electronics/camera manufacturers to justify their 20-22mpixel mantra (I like that phrase, thanks to whomever first wrote that in this thread) based on it.

The fact is, optical physics does not work in a 1/r manner as everyone who writes these kinds of articles assumes. It's for this reason that diffraction limits come into play in current sensor sizes after f/11 and not sooner as would be expected from the formula. 

Yes, you can clearly see the effects of "something" at f/22 and f/32 in the writer's example. But I can't be certain it's diffraction limiting or if it's really optical design. Why? Because the 5D MkII sensor is good for critical resolution thru f/16 (the sensor is only good for 79lpmm). I wouldn't expect to see diffraction limited images look like that (I say this after looking at resolution results from literally hundreds of lenses of all kinds and makes).



lo lite said:


> ...Read this article (google translated) to understand why it doesn't make sense to go much higher than 30-something megapixels on full frame:
> 
> https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photoscala.de%2FArtikel%2FWie-viele-Megapixel-verkraftet-eine-Kamera&edit-text=&act=url
> 
> ...


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 18, 2014)

Potential Layered sensor...
1. I assume Canon counts their pixels spatially, i.e. not 46/(3 layers) = 15.3, or 46/(5 layers) = 9.2
2. 46 spatial pixels then no more AA filter. You can just pixel bin for video
3. No more color noise!
4. 5 Layers.. BGYM(IR)?????

High MP...
I hope that the new TS-E lenses 60(45) and 135(90) would be launched in conjunction with a high megapixel body. Shift stitch with the new TS-E lenses gives you an effective medium format digital sized sensor and all the pixels to match. Combined with accurate color that would be ideal for Landscape/Studio work. An EF 11-24mm USM with autofocus would be nice though.


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## heptagon (Sep 18, 2014)

Reply to the 30MPix nonsense.

Current sensors have a bayer pattern providing with only 1/4th resolution in red/blue. So make that makes the 30MPix into 120MPix if you want a color sensor. But it doesn't stop there. Look at the resolution of the 300mm 2.8 IS II. It outperforms current sensors when using the 2x extender on crop. That'd be 18 MPixels times 4 (extender) times 2.56 (crop to FF area) resulting in 184 MPix. This times 4 because of the bayer pattern is 737 MPix for full color resolution.

Even though most lenses will only provide this resolution in the center of the image at the optimum aperture (<<f/8) we're far from "too many pixels on this sensor".

Admittedly fewer and fewer people will benefit from more pixels in fewer and fewer situations since you need super fast shutter speeds, perfect focus, optimum lighting etc. but if technology provides more pixels at moderate cost, why not take it to get those 10% of the shots you couldn't with the old tech?

In the end the real loser will be the 1.4x and 2x extenders which are just a magnifying glass and crop cameras for tele which just use a smaller imaging circle.


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## alexanderferdinand (Sep 18, 2014)

46MP for 8 - 9k?
Hmmmm- no.


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 18, 2014)

heptagon said:


> Reply to the 30MPix nonsense.
> 
> Current sensors have a bayer pattern providing with only 1/4th resolution in red/blue. So make that makes the 30MPix into 120MPix if you want a color sensor. But it doesn't stop there. Look at the resolution of the 300mm 2.8 IS II. It outperforms current sensors when using the 2x extender on crop. That'd be 18 MPixels times 4 (extender) times 2.56 (crop to FF area) resulting in 184 MPix. This times 4 because of the bayer pattern is 737 MPix for full color resolution.
> 
> ...



I agree that 30MP is nonsense, but how do you come to conclusion that the 300mm f/2.8 L IS USM II outperforms crop sensors with a 2xTC. Your conclusion seems orders of magnitude further out than the the 30MP result. Here are some real examples:

These TDP crops show spatial resolution on *21MP full frame* vs *18MP APS-C with 2xTC*:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=739&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=2&LensComp=739&CameraComp=736&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=2&APIComp=2

Admittedly the 60D has an AA-filter so this TDP crop shows *60D bare* vs *60D with 2xTC*. The lens does not appear to out-resolve APS-C with a 2xTC. If it did then there would not be a resolution drop when using the 2xTC.
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=739&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=2&LensComp=739&CameraComp=736&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=2&APIComp=2

Lastly here is a DxO Mark, bare comparison between FF 21MP vs APS-C 20MP vs APS-C 18MP. The 300mm f/2.8 clearly out-resolves the old FF model, but does not out-resolve the newer crop bodies which apparently have weaker AA-filters.
http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EF-300mm-F28L-IS-II-USM-versus-Canon-EF-300mm-F28L-IS-II-USM-on-Canon-EOS-70D-versus-Canon-EF-300mm-F28L-IS-II-USM-on-Canon-EOS-700D___400_0_400_895_400_870


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## Dphotos (Sep 18, 2014)

October has to be a month where something is announced. Nikon is really taking a bite out of Canon's market share with a better 810 camera. Panasonic GH4 took a bite from the DSLR video guys. Canon needs to wake up and serve the professional market better. I have seen some of my friends make a switch to Nikon and sell all their canon gear. I do not care about the 60D's or the 7D's updates. I need a 5D Mark lV with at least 36-46mp with better low light abilities. With my work I live at ISO's higher than 2000 and right now I always have to use the noise reduction features in Lightroom to create a better file. 4K woud be nice but not as important. 90% of my work is stills.


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## Northstar (Sep 18, 2014)

If this rumor is true, it seems like a similar strategy to what Nikon did with their D3X six years ago.


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 18, 2014)

Did I miss something, or isn't that Nikon that's in financial trouble?

Everything I've seen seems to imply Canon remains strong in it's number one position, with Sony coming on and Nikon fading.

I just went through Canon's Knowledge Base and remember why they're number one in photography gear. Nobody supports professionals the way Canon does. Not Nikon. Not Sony. And this is my number one concern about moving in Sony's direction. It seems like they do nothing for their pros.



Dphotos said:


> October has to be a month where something is announced. Nikon is really taking a bite out of Canon's market share with a better 810 camera... Canon needs to wake up and serve the professional market better...


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## Hannes (Sep 18, 2014)

Bombom said:


> How many will they sell?



Enough.

Canon has always catered for the professionals at that end of the market, not the enthusiasts on a forum. The previous 1D cameras have sold for the same money, in fact more when you take inflation in to account. A higher end product will carry a better margin per unit sold. The sensor will cost roughly the same, the extra 1D internals not very much and the bigger body a bit more to make. The professionals who buy one or two cameras for $8k a pop have different expectations than the average consumer does and canon seems to be doing a better job segmenting the market than nikon.


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 18, 2014)

lo lite said:


> pleasehelp said:
> 
> 
> > Question, when the 1Ds X really has 46MP, how big is that chance that the 5D MK4 will be in the 30 MP range?
> ...


Canon's 40mm pancake could deliver at least 34 MP given a pixel pitch of about 5 micron on full frame and this is a lens everyone can afford. So for higher-end glass (e.g. 600/4, 300/2.8, 70-200/2.8, 500/4, 200/2 etc...) more than 40MP sounds useful. Those lenses (like the new Otus lenses) could probably top out at around 42-52MP based on how they resolve on the 70D.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> Dylan777 said:
> 
> 
> > eml58 said:
> ...



I do not plan to use with Canon lenses. I prefer their native lenses. Might add FE35 and new FE16-35 for travel. Since the battery is not that great, instead trying to improve it, Sony now putting an extra battery to a7s kit ;D

I tried the adapter + Canon lenses on my a7r = crappy(IQ doesn't look right, plus balance is off, feel weird).


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 18, 2014)

Nice, except when you're having to bring new manufacturing processes "on-line." If the investment costs are steep, you can bet you'll be charged whatever it takes to recoup the R&D investment.

The good news is that the BOM costs drop over time. Otherwise, how could we pay 6000USD for a FF 1DsMII and now buy better sensor tech from Canon in 18-20mpixel at 600USD a pop?

But you knew that, right? ;D ;D ;D



Bombom said:


> ...
> But i still rather sell 1000 pieces and make 10 dollar netto profit each than 10 pices and make 20 dollar profit each.
> 
> Especially when i get more NEW customers with a cheaper camera, who will then buy more lenses and stuff.


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 18, 2014)

Sorry. I thought you'd misspelled something. I see you meant what you wrote.



Bombom said:


> you know what netto means?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_profit


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## torger (Sep 18, 2014)

D800, D810 and A7r have been proven popular. Crossover into medium format space. $9k is still cheap compared to medium format. A high MP body is a good idea, but if Canon cannot compete in dynamic range at base ISO I think it's better to wait until they can.

Canon has so far prioritized video and other advanced sensor features ahead of absolute image quality at base ISO. It's probably the right thing to do for the bulk of photography, but to succeed with a high MP body I think they need to rethink and really do everything they can do get the best possible image quality out of the sensor at base ISO, possibly sacrificing some other features.


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## Maui5150 (Sep 18, 2014)

I could see this. Canon has been rumored to have a high MP out in the wild and this would make sense to me to be a Pro body studio / landscape camera. I don't consider this competition to the 810, but rather squashes the D4s... you know... that is supposed to be Nikon's "flagship" camera.

So if, and big if, Canon does this, it looks to be a high MP, high ISO likely lower FPS that would be 1/3rd more MP than the 810 and 3x the MP of the D4s

Canon to me has seemed quiet the last few years, so perhaps they have been stock piling ammo and are about the change the landscape.

7D MK II does appear to be a formidable crop sensor camera aimed at sports photogs and should be king of the crop if the image quality and iso performance is decent.

The 1Dx seems to still be the best all around pro body for AF, MP, FPS ISO etc

This body not only would address the High MP which seems to be lacking from Canon's arsenal, but really becomes a sub-$10K MF if the DR and image is solid. 

And I see a higher MP version of the 5D line, maybe not 36MP but higher than the current offering for sure.


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## raptor3x (Sep 18, 2014)

Maui5150 said:


> I could see this. Canon has been rumored to have a high MP out in the wild and this would make sense to me to be a Pro body studio / landscape camera. I don't consider this competition to the 810, but rather squashes the D4s... you know... that is supposed to be Nikon's "flagship" camera.



I think it's a bit silly to compare this theoretical high MP Canon body to the D4s, completely different animals. It's real competitors would be the D810, A7R, and the 645Z.


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 18, 2014)

It seems "unnatural" to me that Canon would show something to "selected parties" only to keep it under wraps for so long.

I doubt we'll ever know for certain, but the way things are playing out, I think Canon has had a significant amount of trouble moving the big sensors from the lab into production. I'll Bet a Beer that Canon ran into manufacturing/process problems of some kind.



Maui5150 said:


> ... Canon to me has seemed quiet the last few years, so perhaps they have been stock piling ammo and are about the change the landscape...


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## tculotta (Sep 18, 2014)

I disagree that this camera would not compete with the D4s, but would compete with 810. I think it would be an answer to both. it would offer the robustness, FPS, and "pro" features that the D4s (and the 1Dx for that matter) offers and also offer the high MP features of the D810. The high MP successor to the 5D Mk. III would be the one that competes with the D810. The 1Dx successor that is the topic of this thread would trump all of 'em. My $0.02.


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## Maui5150 (Sep 18, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> Maui5150 said:
> 
> 
> > I could see this. Canon has been rumored to have a high MP out in the wild and this would make sense to me to be a Pro body studio / landscape camera. I don't consider this competition to the 810, but rather squashes the D4s... you know... that is supposed to be Nikon's "flagship" camera.
> ...



Why? 

What is Nikon's top of the line body? Is it the D4s or is it the 810?
Hint... The D4s is $6500 and the D810 is under $3K.

Nikon's top of line camera, as well as Canon's often have lower MP than their next-in-line - hence 18MP for the 1Dx and 22 MP for the 5D MK III 

the 1Ds MK III was 21MP and the 1D MK IV was 16 MP, so Canon has the history in the 1D body of having a more all around and then a Studio / high MP model. The 1Dx was sort of a change.

So sorry, from what the rumor is and what placement makes sense, if this is a high MP studio body then this is competing against the D4s and it would be 1Dx vs D4 and 1Dxs vs D4s

Something tells me Nikon fanboys don't like that comparison.


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## unfocused (Sep 18, 2014)

This camera is firmly in the realm of: "will be delivered by elves riding unicorns." 

Still, I encourage everyone to actively participate in this thread as every minute spent here is a minute that can't be spent whining about dynamic range.
Oh, and for the guy who said the D810 was cutting into Canon's market share: Amazon best sellers as of this morning: Canon 7DII #1. D810 #9.


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## raptor3x (Sep 18, 2014)

Maui5150 said:


> Why?
> 
> What is Nikon's top of the line body? Is it the D4s or is it the 810?
> Hint... The D4s is $6500 and the D810 is under $3K.
> ...



If you think a high MP low frame rate studio/landscape body is competing against a low MP high frame rate sports body just because they're priced similarly then I'm not sure what to say to you. Does that mean that the 7D2 is competing against the A7R because the price is similar? Or that the 17 TS-E is competing against the 70-200VRII?


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## clicstudio (Sep 18, 2014)

*Canon needs it...*

Even phones have 40+ MP cameras. 
Even if u don't like it, big MP are a necessity. 
Hasselblad woudn't sell as many medium formats if they were 20mp.
I don't get it. Real pros want more resolution.
Even at $8000 it would be a steal compared to $25000 on medium format.
Bigger and more is always better. 
Look at the new iPhone 6. 4 million preorders on the first night. 
Why they stuck with 8MP camera? It's ridiculous to me. 
Canon needs to step it up and crown themselves as the best camera makers in the world. 
If They can, They should.


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## mackguyver (Sep 18, 2014)

...and the memory card and hard drive makers rejoice...if this is true.

More MP sounds great, but I've been shooting with my 1D X more and more over my 5DIII and those extra couple of MP don't seem to matter. 46MP on the other hand sounds amazing and here in Florida, a lot of my landscapes are actually vegetation-scapes so the extra pixels would really help to bring out the leaf details. I'd rather see the sensor in a 5DIV first, though as that's a lot of $$$ if the pricing rumor is true as well.


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## NancyP (Sep 18, 2014)

Show me a full frame Foveon sensor! (Merrill or maybe Quattro, I have experience with Merrill but not Quattro)! (ducks  ). THERE would be a MF-killer, for situations with decent light. It astounds me how the 15 MP APS-C semi-pocket mirrorless DP2/3 Merrills blow away the 20 MP 6D files at base ISO.

It has occurred to me that if I wanted to try the big-MP cameras, they can be rented. It might be instructive to rent the Pentax 645Z (familiar if bloated form factor) plus a lens (L bracket, etc) for a weekend. Or, play with the D810 and a lens.


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## ChristopherMarkPerez (Sep 18, 2014)

Don't you really mean: *Every minute spent here is a minute that can't be spent out making incredible images?*

I'm sick and house-bound. That's my excuse and I'm sticking by it.



unfocused said:


> This camera is firmly in the realm of: "will be delivered by elves riding unicorns."
> 
> Still, I encourage everyone to actively participate in this thread as every minute spent here is a minute that can't be spent whining about dynamic range.
> Oh, and for the guy who said the D810 was cutting into Canon's market share: Amazon best sellers as of this morning: Canon 7DII #1. D810 #9.


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## GmanKY (Sep 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> GmanKY said:
> 
> 
> > It's interesting that this article popped just now. Over the weekend, I was doing some serious looking at possibly switching (more like buy an extra body) to the 810, but I'm really invested in Canon. I do landscapes and go big with prints, so I want/need the resolution. I went back through Canon's history, and the past several cycles of the 1D cameras has been every couple of years, and the past couple have been announced in October. So, I decided this weekend to hold off until after Christmas before making any other purchases. I have a bunch of L glass to go with my current bodies, but maybe if I do get the 810, I could get by with just a couple of Nikon or Zeiss lenses. I just hate to switch and sink $ into another system, but I'm also tired of waiting for Canon to quit recycling old sensors and finally move forward a good step. 46MP sensor would be huge, and this is not the first time I've heard that number tossed around. Seems like I read somewhere around 4-6 months ago that there was a 46MP body in the wild for testing. I guess we'll soon see.
> ...



You're right and I absolutely thought of that, but if Canon did come out with something like this, I wouldn't mind spending the extra money to have a system that works with all of lenses rather than sink 6K into a restricted, one lens system for landscapes. But, it feels like I'm being backed into a corner to go that route. If I got the D810, the 14-24 would be at the top of the list, but I'd likely get the Otus 55mm as well.

I'm just going to have to sit out the next couple of months and see if anything happens and go from there.


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## Khalai (Sep 18, 2014)

*Re: Canon needs it...*



clicstudio said:


> Even phones have 40+ MP cameras.
> Even if u don't like it, big MP are a necessity.
> Hasselblad woudn't sell as many medium formats if they were 20mp.
> I don't get it. Real pros want more resolution.
> ...



Unless you are limited by diffraction. Take some recent high MPix APS-C bodies, right now, at f/11, the diffraction is already kicking in and by f/16 it's becoming visible. How about landscapes or macro? f/8-11 is sometimes insufficient. So I disagree in bigger being better. Not everytime...


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## Maui5150 (Sep 18, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> Maui5150 said:
> 
> 
> > Why?
> ...



No. My point is that from what it sounds like, this may be the 1Ds replacement, i.e. their top line Studio / Landscape hence why I was comparing to the D4s.

I am comparing flagship to flagship regardless of spec. When the 1Dx came out it looked to be a bridge between the 1D and 1Ds lines and it maybe that Canon just needed some more time. 

The D810 is a decent camera but is more on par as a high MP version of the 5D MKIII 

you want to compare the FPS of the D810 to the 1Dx? How about ISO? AF? 

The camera rumored is sounding like a 1Ds hence the natural comparison is either the or the D4s or maybe the aging D3x

the D810? Pfffffffffft


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> Normalnorm said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Yeah for 8k-9k it will have to offer a ton. It can't just be a 1Ds3 with 46MP. That would sink like a tank.
It would need like 10fps at 46MP FF mode and better video than the 1DC all around every which way and Exmor-like low ISO DR. If it managed all of that then it certainly could justify 8k-9k. That would be the best DSLR ever made.

If it has like 5fps, 46MP, same old DR, same video as the 7D2 and they want 8k for it.... I guess you can refer to the old "a fool and their money are quickly parted". You could basically do arguably rather better than that (weighing 3 stops of DR a lot more than the 36 to 46MP jump) with a D810 for a fraction of the price.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 18, 2014)

ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> I'd like to take the time to understand (as best I can) why Canon is "stuck" in it's current position.



It seems that they have calculated that going to a new sensor production facility would cost a ton of money and since their sales are not slagging off badly and the fanboys are lapping up every sensor they release no matter what, why spend the money on the new sensor production? They seem to not fear the loss of any brand prestige or user base angst at all for the long term and just see the sales holding up reasonably well (if maybe not nearly what they could be) while not having to put a truly gigantic expenditure on the books. They figure their lens lineup and UI is enough.

If the 5D4 and next 1 series arrive with the same old sensors and no 4k and so on then it's clear that nothing but having everyone say forget and their sales totally tanking will ever get us to those features.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 18, 2014)

Yeah diffraction is not a sudden hard stop.

Also, what is wrong with making use of more res at wider than f/8?? I mean a lot of wildlife can be shot, when distant, at f/2.8 even and certainly f/5.6 and even on his sudden hard stop chart, you can see how many more MP can be supported.



ChristopherMarkPerez said:


> If this were true, you'd expect the electronics/camera manufacturers to justify their 20-22mpixel mantra (I like that phrase, thanks to whomever first wrote that in this thread) based on it.
> 
> The fact is, optical physics does not work in a 1/r manner as everyone who writes these kinds of articles assumes. It's for this reason that diffraction limits come into play in current sensor sizes after f/11 and not sooner as would be expected from the formula.
> 
> ...


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 18, 2014)

StudentOfLight said:


> Potential Layered sensor...
> 1. I assume Canon counts their pixels spatially, i.e. not 46/(3 layers) = 15.3, or 46/(5 layers) = 9.2
> 2. 46 spatial pixels then no more AA filter. You can just pixel bin for video
> 3. No more color noise!
> ...



15.3MP foveon-style still needs an AA filter on FF for sure


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 18, 2014)

torger said:


> A high MP body is a good idea, but if Canon cannot compete in dynamic range at base ISO I think it's better to wait until they can.



+1


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 18, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Yeah diffraction is not a sudden hard stop.
> 
> Also, what is wrong with making use of more res at wider than f/8?? I mean a lot of wildlife can be shot, when distant, at f/2.8 even and certainly f/5.6 and even on his sudden hard stop chart, you can see how many more MP can be supported.
> 
> ...


Yes, you could also focus bracket with an optimum aperture for resolving (e.g. f/4). Hopefully the theoretical camera will have in-camera focus-bracketing option, taking into account focal length and focus distance. I'd design it to start from lens position then either rack to infinity or rack to MFD. 
(Is that how it works with Magic Lantern??? Downloaded it, but haven't installed yet.  )


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 18, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> StudentOfLight said:
> 
> 
> > Potential Layered sensor...
> ...



Yes 15.3MP could definitely use an AA filter, but I was hoping it would be: 

46MP x (5 layers) = 230 (Five-eon-style) 
46MP x (3 layers) = 138 (Three-veon-style)


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## Dantana (Sep 18, 2014)

jrista said:


> eml58 said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



I guess it depends on how you define "win." I won't argue with you that a medium format camera of the same resolution won't turn out better images than a 35mm full frame. But if the image quality was good enough, something better than what is out there in the rest of the 35mm world but not quite up to the level of modern medium format, some would consider that a win. You'd have a much more portable kit with many more lens options the you would have with medium format, especially if you were already invested in high end EF glass.

That being said, it's not something that will end up in my bag, unless it's ten years from now on eBay.


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## mkabi (Sep 18, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> It would need like 10fps at 46MP FF mode and better video than the 1DC all around every which way and Exmor-like low ISO DR. If it managed all of that then it certainly could justify 8k-9k. That would be the best DSLR ever made.



Not going to happen. Keep dreaming... you have totally lost it... 46MP alone is already dreaming... then everything else you ask as well... Might as well throw all the existing 1DX and 1DC in the thrash compacter and sell this camera alone. Do you think Canon plans on throwing its existing cameras (the ones in their inventory) like the 1DX and the 1DC in the thrash? Do you think that they are going to reduce the price of the 1DX or 1DC to the point that its close to or as affordable as the 5DIII? You can find the 1DsIV for $4500-$5000 still... so without dreaming... what do you think will really happen, given the past and present tech.?

Even still, with the specs that you are dreaming about it would be the best DSLR ever made, until someone else comes up with something better. Then you guys will be b!tching about something else.


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## StudentOfLight (Sep 18, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Yeah for 8k-9k it will have to offer a ton. It can't just be a 1Ds3 with 46MP. That would sink like a tank.
> It would need like 10fps at 46MP FF mode and better video than the 1DC all around every which way and Exmor-like low ISO DR. If it managed all of that then it certainly could justify 8k-9k. That would be the best DSLR ever made.
> 
> If it has like 5fps, 46MP, same old DR, same video as the 7D2 and they want 8k for it.... I guess you can refer to the old "a fool and their money are quickly parted". You could basically do arguably rather better than that (weighing 3 stops of DR a lot more than the 36 to 46MP jump) with a D810 for a fraction of the price.


I think you've cracked this case wide open. It sounds like you are describing a "1D-C Mark-II"

For a brief time the 1D-C offered the novelty of 4K video in a digital stills camera. If you use a 3:2 aspect ratio then a full frame 46MP (non-foveon) is about 8200x wide... cropped 1.3x for (S35 coverage) gives you 6.3K video. With DPAF and improved DR a 1D-C Mark-II it could again offer something novel to those who can budget for it. To shoot 6K video at 24p I'm guessing it would have the internals to do at least 8fps.

As 4K is becoming more mainstream the 1D-C (at its price-point) is becoming more and more irrelevant. With the price drops on the 1D-C it falls directly into a 9-10K price bracket so a camera like "this" could reasonably replace it and with improved video technology. (7D-II might still have some video tricks which haven't been uncovered yet)

Anyway, this would probably signal a true separation between the 1D-C line and the 1D-X line, which on the other hand would probably prioritize higher-fps and better-low-light-performance over increased-resolution. So the "1Dc Mark-II" might be a spiritual successor to the 1Ds Mark-III (from a stills perspective) and less pricey successor to the 1Dc (from a video perspective).

What do you think?


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## mkabi (Sep 18, 2014)

StudentOfLight said:


> For a brief time the 1D-C offered the novelty of 4K video in a digital stills camera. If you use a 3:2 aspect ratio then a full frame 46MP (non-foveon) is about 8200x wide... cropped 1.3x for (S35 coverage) gives you 6.3K video. With DPAF and improved DR a 1D-C Mark-II it could again offer something novel to those who can budget for it. To shoot 6K video at 24p I'm guessing it would have the internals to do at least 8fps.
> 
> As 4K is becoming more mainstream the 1D-C (at its price-point) is becoming more and more irrelevant. With the price drops on the 1D-C it falls directly into a 9-10K price bracket so a camera like "this" could reasonably replace it and with improved video technology. (7D-II might still have some video tricks which haven't been uncovered yet)
> 
> ...



+1 on the 6K video.
Now that will be something that will compete along side what Kinefinity/RED offers.


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## jeffa4444 (Sep 18, 2014)

At this stage take this rumor with a pinch of salt. Canon has senior camera, lens and sensor engineers at Photokina asking pro photographers what they like and dislike about existing cameras and lenses in three different groups. You dont do that with the associated cost if your about to launch a camera in a month. That said a camera with a 45MP sensor was being tested in 2013 but then cameras can be tested that dont make production or get major changes.


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## waving_odd (Sep 19, 2014)

New speculations over there at FM!!!

[quote author=Fred Miranda]
Canon is already using Sony's 1" sensor. Most medium format players are using Sony's 50MP medium format CMOS sensor on their cameras. Nikon has been using Sony's FF CMOS sensor.
There are rumors that Sony has developed a higher MP FF sensor soon to be released. (~46MP)

So, there is a possibility that Canon may include Sony's newest sensor on their flagship body and then trickle it down to consumer models. 

If you can't beat them, join them!
[/quote]

[quote author=Fred Miranda]
Read this post: (SR5)
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/?s=No+other+new+camera+from+Sony

It mentions a Sony FF CMOS 46MP sensor in January...
[/quote]


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 19, 2014)

StudentOfLight said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > StudentOfLight said:
> ...



well that would interesting ;D


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 19, 2014)

mkabi said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > It would need like 10fps at 46MP FF mode and better video than the 1DC all around every which way and Exmor-like low ISO DR. If it managed all of that then it certainly could justify 8k-9k. That would be the best DSLR ever made.
> ...



Maybe so, but who would buy a 36MP, non-Exmor DR, 5fps, worse than 1DC video, bulky 1 series cam for $9000 when you could get the same and better for a fraction of that price from other brands???

Or even say it has exmor DR, why pay $9000 for a bulky 36MP exmor-quality 5fps 1080p camera when you get the same thing for Nikon for like what $2500 or something? You can buy the D810 and three key lenses AND keep your Canon lenses and perhaps current Canon body and still have spent no more than after selling your current Canon body and adding the new $9000 1DsX.

You can get an A7S+Ninja 4k recorder+metabones adapter for Canon lenses+Nikon D810+two Nikon lenses for $9000! So why on Earth would you spend $9000 for a bulky 1DsX that gives 36MP with DR but 5fps and no 4k video?

You can get an A7S+Ninja 4k recorder+A7R+metabones adapter for Canon lenses for like $7000. $2000 less.

This thing either needs to be with the spec I list or forget it.

And at some point the 1DX and 1DC have to go to the trash. I mean do they still sell the D30 and 1D as their top models or are they in the trash? The current stuff makes those look silly. (not that using the term "in the trash" is how I'd have chosen to put it, since they still take pictures and people can get good use out of stuff that is not the latest)

And the 1DC is really about to make zero sense. A7S+Ninja4k costs half the price and gives better quality. The new SOny videocamera blows away the 1DC for video and is the same price.


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## kaihp (Sep 19, 2014)

jeffa4444 said:


> At this stage take this rumor with a pinch of salt. Canon has senior camera, lens and sensor engineers at Photokina asking pro photographers what they like and dislike about existing cameras and lenses in three different groups. You dont do that with the associated cost if your about to launch a camera in a month.



Surely they can and will do that (talking to customers about what they like/dislike and launch a new body in 1 month).

My point is that Canon is most likely to have multiple generations of camera bodies under development at the same time, considering the product development time vs the launch cadence, so the camera they would be about to launch would not the one they are taking input on.


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## daniela (Sep 19, 2014)

Back from Photokina. The show was interesting, third party manufacturers announced a lot of accessories that will be helpful in future. New lenses (Sigma) e.g. One think to criticice: Each second person who talks about the 7DII praises the IQ of this cam. I asked some of them, how many shots they took with this new Cam. But NO one did. They just looked at a few pictures, release in the www... :
Some *rumors* from US and asian visitors: In the near and far next month there will be some new bodies announced. A mid priced competitor to the D810 with an much better AF system and a new sensor (no recycled one with a little bit more MP). Low light noise will be improved. And an high end body with superior features and an much higher price than the 1Dx. No details on exact improvements. But it will be an stellar successor to the 1Dx. Two Asians rumored that there will be an separation of the high end line, features like the current 1DX and another body, focussing on IQ. 
And that there is an entry FF camera with an extended AF system in development, around 20MP, more AF points... maybe an 6D successor, focused on AF system, as the IQ is very good.
Other brands will release new technology too: Sony will get an big competitor in the next years. They realised that their lens line is a big weakness. New highend Sensors are "in the wild" testing, and will be released soon. Nikon tries to pimp up the D7100.


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## plam_1980 (Sep 19, 2014)

I don't know if someone already posted this, but according to this site:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-no-other-new-camera-from-sony-at-photokina-sr5-new-generation-sensor-and-cameras-release-in-january/

"(SR5) Sony is preparing a BIG event in January! They will release a complete new generation of cameras with a new generation sensor. Cameras have those two features:
1) Very high resolution and dynamic range. One of them is a 46 megapixel FF sensor.
2) Very fast AF speed

I know it’s strange they did not announce those at Photokina. But that it is. I Thank All trusted sources for the info they shared the last couple of weeks. I hope you sources can help me to feed SAR readers with some reliable rumor about the next generation cameras coming in January!

-

A couple of notes: January announcement is 100% correct as it really got confirmed by highly trusted sources. So trust me on this"

I really hope Canon will not lag behind and this new EOS body becomes a fact


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## Mitch.Conner (Sep 19, 2014)

plam_1980 said:


> I don't know if someone already posted this, but according to this site:
> http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-no-other-new-camera-from-sony-at-photokina-sr5-new-generation-sensor-and-cameras-release-in-january/
> 
> "(SR5) Sony is preparing a BIG event in January! They will release a complete new generation of cameras with a new generation sensor. Cameras have those two features:
> ...



Does this mean Canon might be using a Sony sensor in this new rumored camera?


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## tomscott (Sep 19, 2014)

I really like the Sony cameras. Not just the IQ but the form and the way they work.

I am going traveling for 5 months through South america and doing a stint in the Amazon. My Canon gear 5DMKIII 24-105mm L and 70-300mm L is perfect for the trip but weighs 3kg when you add the rest of my gear its a lot and its not exactly discrete. So I was looking at buying a smaller system, as I already have the Nex5n and really like it Sony was the obvious choice. 

But try swapping out your lenses… The camera bodies are great and weigh nothing but the zeiss lenses don't come close to the canon counterparts. Especially the Zooms not so much the primes, first choice was the A7 because the 24mp is more than enough for me, but the kit lens… soft, the 24-70 F4 Zeiss, from samples I've seen shouldn't be waring that badge for £1000!! The 70-200mm F4 also not a bad lens but not stellar, also over £1000! To replace for a travel system you need £3000 and the lenses are bang middle of the road. Only benefit is the weight the whole kit, weighs in at 1.5kgs the A7 and 24-70mm weighs less than the 5DMKIII body alone then the 24-105mm is another 670g. So half the weight.

Putting a metabones adapter on for me is pointless because they aren't reliable and the AF is so slow its unusable for anything but static subjects.

Instead of focusing on a high MP camera for 9k that is in a difficult competition they should just go all out and add the very best of EOS to a FF mirrorless and steal the whole market. Stick the 6D or 5DMKIII sensor in a small body with a good EVF mid range performance and the ability to use EF lenses and it will sell like hotcakes take the whole market. Thats where the money is for Canon not in a high MP body imo. Sell it for £1500 no brainer for a lot of people.

I love my 5DMKIII for commercial work, because it works and the IQ is great but when I'm shooting for myself the weight really is a pain!!! Canon have nothing that is portable, the 100D, EOS M 700D etc nice little cameras but that sensor is just awful it was poor when it was announced 5 years ago and is currently not competitive the 20.2mp is a little better but not good, pretty much everything on the market has better IQ and noise performance. The 6D, great camera crippled by AF not much smaller than the 5DMKIII and like 150g less weight, IMO pointless swapping out a 5DMKIII for one.

You are all saying Canon aren't in the position with new sensor tech but the 18mp, 20mp and 22mp FF sensors only reside in one camera respectively, which is bad economy surely? They have milked that 18mp sensor and it was poor so why not milk the better sensors? stick them in some other cameras.

I might be in the minority, but at least then there is a little bit of evolution in the canon camp and more options for canon users that want to stay in the camp.


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## waving_odd (Sep 19, 2014)

Mitch.Conner said:


> plam_1980 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if someone already posted this, but according to this site:
> ...



Not unreasonable.

Does anyone know if chipworks, etc has shown that the new Canon G7X is using Sony 1" sensor?


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## peederj (Sep 19, 2014)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> You can get an A7S+Ninja 4k recorder+A7R+metabones adapter for Canon lenses for like $7000. $2000 less.



The "Ninja 4K recorder" is called SHOGUN.

If Sony have the same sensor that's not so bad for Canon as Canon has a more mature ecosystem and design. But if the whole industry is just using the same Sony sensors it's going to be a marginal business and all our photos are going to look more or less alike, as if we were all shooting on the same emulsion.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 19, 2014)

daniela said:


> Some *rumors* from US and asian visitors: In the near and far next month there will be some new bodies announced. A mid priced competitor to the D810 with an much better AF system and a new sensor (no recycled one with a little bit more MP). Low light noise will be improved.



What about low ISO, high light shadow noise? It's THERE where Canon is miles behind, not at high ISO.

And what about video QUALITY. Canon has fallen way behind there. Look at the A7S, for instance, with a Ninja addition it's much better than even the 1DC for video and less than half the price and without the Ninja it's only $2500 and has better internally recorded 1080p than any Canon DSLR, far better than the new 7D2 for instance.

A Panny GH4 4k downsampled to 1080p also looks much better than any 1080p from Canon (only possible exception is the 5D3 with RAW hack), plus it of course can be left at native 4k (not the world's best 4k, but 4k and not the worst.)


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## The Flasher (Sep 21, 2014)

A 46mp Canon would be welcome, but even more so, a 5D4 more in line with the resolution and price of the 810. Shooting commercially I find myself short on resolution often, especially when applying perspective and distortion correction on architectural shots. Canon's got the lenses, which is why I haven't jumped ship.

j


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## Marsu42 (Sep 21, 2014)

Canon Rumors said:


> A thread has popped up on a forum</a> talking about a 46mp pro Canon DSLR being launched in New York City in October for PhotoPlus.



Hah, *now* we know where CR is getting all this hot, confidential information from :->. Shouldn't be a new rating introduced for these kind of sources like [CR0.5] (half the rating for every time quote on quote) or [CR-1]  ?


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## Woody (Sep 21, 2014)

Mitch.Conner said:


> Does this mean Canon might be using a Sony sensor in this new rumored camera?



Maybe.


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## Maiaibing (Sep 21, 2014)

The Flasher said:


> I find myself short on resolution often (...). Canon's got the lenses, which is why I haven't jumped ship.



Could not agree more. 

If 5DIV is also just an incremental adjustment of existing sensor tech my next camera will not be a Canon... Of course worrying a little more now after the 7DII seems to be "just" a 70D sensor rehash.


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## scyrene (Sep 21, 2014)

I'm sceptical it'll happen, but I would like more MP in my next camera. I crop a lot, even at long focal lengths. Extra resolution gives extra reach. Also downsizing to reduce noise and enhance sharpness. Not everyone after more megapixels is a landscape shooter. Even if the image quality remained the same as current bodies (which I think is fine), I'd be very interested.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Sep 23, 2014)

Oh man, I just looked at the rumor starter's personal website....
suddenly I now rank this a CR -10000000000.


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## Diko (Sep 23, 2014)

daniela said:


> Some *rumors* from US and asian visitors: In the near and far next month there will be some new bodies announced. A mid priced competitor to the D810 with an much better AF system and a new sensor (no recycled one with a little bit more MP). Low light noise will be improved. And an high end body with superior features and an much higher price than the 1Dx. No details on exact improvements. But it will be an stellar successor to the 1Dx. Two Asians rumored that there will be an separation of the high end line, features like the current 1DX and another body, focussing on IQ.
> And that there is an entry FF camera with an extended AF system in development, around 20MP, more AF points... maybe an 6D successor, focused on AF system, as the IQ is very good.
> Other brands will release new technology too: Sony will get an big competitor in the next years. They realised that their lens line is a big weakness. New highend Sensors are "in the wild" testing, and will be released soon. Nikon tries to pimp up the D7100.


 I would love all those rumors to be true! And I am still awaiting that CANON MF camera (even though there isn't even a single rumor of MF Glass from CANON)...


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## johnvr (Oct 2, 2014)

Sorry to spoil the party:http://photographicwanderings.com/2014/10/02/news-46mp-megapixel-canon-1dsx-dslr-about-to-be-announced-or-the-anatomy-of-a-rumor/


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## TeT (Oct 2, 2014)

Nice... I think I played D&D with that guy back in the 80's


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## scrup (Oct 7, 2014)

Sorry to hurt the fanboys, but Canon is not releasing any DSLRs this year.
But this site runs on rumors so give it a couple of weeks and there will be a new rumor for the next M, Rebel or 1 series in that order.


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## Steve (Oct 7, 2014)

scrup said:


> Sorry to hurt the fanboys, but Canon is not releasing any DSLRs this year.



uh, the 7DII is going to be released in November?


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## donsullivan (Oct 9, 2014)

scrup said:


> Sorry to hurt the fanboys, but Canon is not releasing any DSLRs this year.



I'm inclined to agree that there is nothing new shipping this year, given that the 7DII isn't even coming until late November.

As a result, I gave up the vigil last night waiting for a myth and pulled the trigger to order a D810 + 5 lenses. I'll be putting my 5D3/7D +8 L lenses and a pile of other accessories as well as the Sony a7R+ and other associated accessory items up for sale in the coming weeks. 

I'm tired of waiting for a never ending cycle of rumor and speculation and choosing to speak with my dollars. I'd rather be out taking the shots I want with a tool that meets my requirements today instead of settling for compromises or workarounds (for my shooting style and subject) with current gear. 

I've been ready to upgrade my 5D3 since the spring and took the a7R route as a bridge but that just does not cut it. I typically look to refresh my primary camera body about ever 24 months but Canon no longer has anything that meets my shooting needs. 

I'm sure most here don't care but Canon's lack of competitive products cost them a 15 year customer and CPS member this week.


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## privatebydesign (Oct 9, 2014)

donsullivan said:


> scrup said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry to hurt the fanboys, but Canon is not releasing any DSLRs this year.
> ...



Why should anybody care? Canon don't believe their products are uncompetitive so they are not going to build a camera just for you.

Get the tools/system that best does the job you have to do, for many that is Nikon, for others Sony, Pentax, Canon, Fuji or any one of a number of other manufacturers, it really doesn't matter to anyone, and nor should it..........


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