# Canon is gearing up for a big 2020 [CR2]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Sep 30, 2019)

> We’re not going to see any more major product announcements from Canon in 2019, outside of the official announcement of the RF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM, which we expect in the next month or two, with the availability of the new lens coming in December.
> We have been told that Canon has a major announcement planned on or around February 11, 2020, which would come ahead of CP+, which begins at the end of February.
> A second source said “your readers should start getting excited for Photokina”, which is happening in May. Unfortunately, that was all we were told and we’ll have to wait a bit longer to find out what is possibly coming.
> We expect both the high-megapixel EOS R body and EOS-1D X Mark III to be announced in the first half of 2020, along with a lot of new RF mount lenses.



Continue reading...


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## unfocused (Sep 30, 2019)

I'm guessing that if the next major Canon announcement isn't until February, instead of a "development" announcement, they will actually be announcing the 1Dx III.


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## Chaitanya (Sep 30, 2019)

Olympics are coming up so expecting to see some sort of gear targetted towards that demographic. Lets hope we see some super teles for R system.


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## bellorusso (Sep 30, 2019)

Why do they announce flagships so close to the Olympics? What if something goes wrong and they won't have a moment to fix that? Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?
I really don't get this.


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## criscokkat (Sep 30, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> Why do they announce flagships so close to the Olympics? What if something goes wrong and they won't have a moment to fix that? Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?
> I really don't get this.


I suspect the news agencies and other higher profile canon professional services users will be getting widespread access to these bodies and lenses shortly after announcement. A number of these people have those in hand now, I'm sure. If it's announced in Feb with release a few weeks later, users will have months of time to hammer out any issues before the Olympics which do not start until the end of July.

Although I'm hoping that they are wrong on the dates. I'd love to see something slipping past all of the rumors sites and being announced at the end of October in New York, like an r mount APS-c camera.


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## rbielefeld (Sep 30, 2019)

Canon may very well have a big 2020, but unfortunately for me, part of their big 2020 will not include bring out a Pro-mirrorless body. This is what I am waiting for. For me mirrorless brings so many good things to my way of shooting that I will likely not be purchasing another DSLR. So, wait I will for the pro-mirrorless. Who knows, maybe Canon will surprise me and get a high fps, Continuous AF, with 30 or 30+MP mirrorless out in 2020.


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## frankchn (Sep 30, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I suspect the news agencies and other higher profile canon professional services users will be getting widespread access to these bodies and lenses shortly after announcement. A number of these people have those in hand now, I'm sure. If it's announced in Feb with release a few weeks later, users will have months of time to hammer out any issues before the Olympics which do not start until the end of July.



I would be surprised if the really large news organizations which purchase thousands of 1D cameras don't already have access to prototypes for testing in the field. After all, Canon wants to avoid another 1D Mark III AF fiasco.


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## LensFungus (Sep 30, 2019)

This endless waiting for the Canon Pro R camera is like waiting for hours and hours at the doctor's office and once you get to talk to Doctor Canon, he puts his arm on your shoulder: "_I'm sorry, you only have 4 hours left to live. You shouldn't have wasted the last hours waiting for me, you fool. Go out and buy a Nikon or Sony while you can!_" Damn you, doctor!


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## rbielefeld (Sep 30, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> This endless waiting for the Canon Pro R camera is like waiting for hours and hours at the doctor's office and once you get to talk to Doctor Canon, he puts his arm on your shoulder: "_I'm sorry, you only have 4 hours left to live. You shouldn't have wasted the last hours waiting for me, you fool. Go out and buy a Nikon or Sony while you can!_" Damn you, doctor!


I already have a Sony a9 and am using with adapted Canon glass ans Sony glass. The a9 is what has transformed my thinking about what a mirrorless camera can be for professional action photographers. There is a lot to like about the Sony a9, but a lot not to like as well. Thus, I am hopeful Canon can take the pro-mirrorless camera to the next level by doing what Sony has done, but also bringing along with it awesome usability that Sony just does not have.


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## Quarkcharmed (Sep 30, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> This endless waiting for the Canon Pro R camera is like waiting for hours and hours at the doctor's office and once you get to talk to Doctor Canon, he puts his arm on your shoulder: "_I'm sorry, you only have 4 hours left to live. You shouldn't have wasted the last hours waiting for me, you fool. Go out and buy a Nikon or Sony while you can!_" Damn you, doctor!



No, definitely not Nikon for me. I considered Sony A7RIV but it doesn't overwhelm me enough to switch. But if the wait is to long or Carbon doesn't deliver, I'll switch eventually anyway.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Sep 30, 2019)

I bet they have already several in the field being rigorously tested probably unmarked or marked as a mark II


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## flip314 (Sep 30, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> This endless waiting for the Canon Pro R camera is like waiting for hours and hours at the doctor's office and once you get to talk to Doctor Canon, he puts his arm on your shoulder: "_I'm sorry, you only have 4 hours left to live. You shouldn't have wasted the last hours waiting for me, you fool. Go out and buy a Nikon or Sony while you can!_" Damn you, doctor!



Nikon zooms in the Devil's direction. I will never use them.


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## Tom W (Sep 30, 2019)

My baseless prediction is that they'll also offer up a 7D III, based on the 90D sensor, with dual processors, supreme autofocus, and the rest of the 7D stuff that sets it apart. A rugged cropper. 

More speculative - Maybe a hybred optical/LCD viewfinder that allows switching to "mirrorless" mode with the resultant DPAF and increased frame rate. Would be very cool for sports/action on a budget.

I wonder if they'll throw out any more EF-M lenses, or if that format is going to slide into oblivion. I would love to see an ultra-wide, and a short tele prime, along with some sort of f/4 normal zoom, like 15-60 or something like that. Just dreaming here - I know that there's only so much $$ in the development budget.


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## cellomaster27 (Sep 30, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> This endless waiting for the Canon Pro R camera is like waiting for hours and hours at the doctor's office and once you get to talk to Doctor Canon, he puts his arm on your shoulder: "_I'm sorry, you only have 4 hours left to live. You shouldn't have wasted the last hours waiting for me, you fool. Go out and buy a Nikon or Sony while you can!_" Damn you, doctor!



Welp, I never thought I'd say this.. but I just ordered the EOS R. and I'm excited!


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## Architect1776 (Sep 30, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> Why do they announce flagships so close to the Olympics? What if something goes wrong and they won't have a moment to fix that? Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?
> I really don't get this.


Because Canon so far does not rush out messed up half baked pro products.


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## Ozarker (Sep 30, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?


This is what the leaks are for.


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## Ozarker (Sep 30, 2019)

cellomaster27 said:


> Welp, I never thought I'd say this.. but I just ordered the EOS R. and I'm excited!


Be prepared to be wowed. I came up from a 5D Mark III also.


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## canonnews (Sep 30, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?
> I really don't get this.



most of the people that need the 1DX Mark III already know it's coming either by testing the body or by simple logic. I mean it's the worst kept secret that Canon will announce a new 1 series camera before the olympic games.


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## 12Broncos (Sep 30, 2019)

I was hoping for at least an announcement in October, however, we have something to look forward to during the dreariest/longest (even though it's the shortest month) month of the year.


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## LensFungus (Sep 30, 2019)

cellomaster27 said:


> Welp, I never thought I'd say this.. but I just ordered the EOS R. and I'm excited!


I will have a conversation with the EOS R on Black Friday.


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## cellomaster27 (Sep 30, 2019)

LensFungus said:


> I will have a conversation with the EOS R on Black Friday.



I would do the same but Kenya or Black Friday? hmmm  gimme my giraffes and cheetahs!! I just bought the control ring adapter too.. hoping it'll work well with the sigma 150-600. Not the fastest focusing lens but super for what I got it for.. $679 4 yrs ago brand new - Black Friday I think.


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## mb66energy (Sep 30, 2019)

No mention of M5 / M50 versions? After thinking about a 2nd M50 body to come back to two body photography I do not like to buy one and see 5 minutes later a full sensor read out 4k mode enabled M5(0) entering the market.


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## Matt Williams (Sep 30, 2019)

C300 MkIII - whatever happened to the announcement for the C300 Mk III? I thought we were more or less guaranteed to have this announced this year?


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## Sharlin (Sep 30, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> Why do they announce flagships so close to the Olympics? What if something goes wrong and they won't have a moment to fix that? Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?
> I really don't get this.



If you have what amounts to an Iridium-level CPS subscription, like Canon's big clients do, you almost certainly don't need to wait for public announcements. You're briefed well ahead of time what to expect and when. Of course that privilege comes with a bunch of NDAs drafted by extremely expensive lawyers, and you _really_ don't want to get on Canon's bad side by violating those NDAs.


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## ethanz (Sep 30, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> iridium-level CPS subscription



Is that the next level after Platinum? lol probably need like 10,000 points.


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## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Sep 30, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> Why do they announce flagships so close to the Olympics? What if something goes wrong and they won't have a moment to fix that? Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?
> I really don't get this.


 
Oh .. but what if test models are being used by 2 dozen experienced pros right now as you post your question?

Which is probably the real world preparation.


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## neurorx (Sep 30, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> Why do they announce flagships so close to the Olympics? What if something goes wrong and they won't have a moment to fix that? Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?
> I really don't get this.


I.m there with you. Usually orders take some time to fill.


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## sanj (Sep 30, 2019)

Waiting for the mirrorless flagship.


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## Drcampbellicu (Sep 30, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



theyre stringing is along
The 1D will be great but the angst is around a 7d replacement and a pro mirrorless 
I don’t know if the high megapixel mirrorless counts.


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## Sharlin (Sep 30, 2019)

ethanz said:


> Is that the next level after Platinum? lol probably need like 10,000 points.



No, there's the Rhodium level in between.


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## SteveC (Sep 30, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> No, there's the Rhodium level in between.



Logically, rhodium should be above iridium; it fluctuates a lot in price because of the way the market and production work for those exotic PGMs, but has been known to break $4K/troy ounce.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Sep 30, 2019)

1/2 an hour to set the settings/buttons/menus of your new 1DX Mark III to match your existing 1DX Mark II and you're good to go. I'll be very surprised if the new models are different enough to give Olympic level operators any problems. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.


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## mpmark (Sep 30, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> Why do they announce flagships so close to the Olympics? What if something goes wrong and they won't have a moment to fix that? Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?
> I really don't get this.



If you "don't get it" then why even suggest what they are doing wrong? They clearly know what they are doing, when to release their flagship products as they have been doing the pre olympics launches in the past. I'm sure they go over their numbers after the fact. Heck there is a reason they are the biggest in the market, they must be doing something right no?

The products they release are being tested now, they have never had a disaster pre olympics so why trounce on them for no reason?


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## Sharlin (Sep 30, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Logically, rhodium should be above iridium; it fluctuates a lot in price because of the way the market and production work for those exotic PGMs, but has been known to break $4K/troy ounce.



Hmm, true if you go by price. I just went by atomic number.


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## unfocused (Sep 30, 2019)

cellomaster27 said:


> I would do the same but Kenya or Black Friday? hmmm  gimme my giraffes and cheetahs!! I just bought the control ring adapter too.. hoping it'll work well with the sigma 150-600. Not the fastest focusing lens but super for what I got it for.. $679 4 yrs ago brand new - Black Friday I think.


I've used that combination, but only once. (Simply because I don't have much time for recreational photography due to the demands of my work photography. I must say I was impressed with the sharpness on the R -- probably as a result of not needing AFMA. I didn't notice any slower or faster focusing than on a DSLR. Generally, I think the R tends to hunt more when shooting BIF than a DSLR. But that may be because I need to get more used to the R for that purpose. It seems like when it misses focus, it really, really misses focus and it's hard to find the subject again. I haven't tried it with the new firmware though, so don't know if that will help.


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## wockawocka (Sep 30, 2019)

Anybody else getting Deja vu comparing the time the 5Dsr was launched and then the long wait for the 5D4 release?

I can't help feeling this will be no different. Eos Rs in Feb, Eos R5 in September.


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## SteveC (Sep 30, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Hmm, true if you go by price. I just went by atomic number.



In that case it should be …. Osmium, Iridium, Platinum, Gold... Then on to considerably less glamorous metals like mercury, lead and bismuth. Uranium and plutonium being top dogs.


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## Andreasb (Sep 30, 2019)

I'm surprised that there isn't more of an urgency at Canon, that is half a year from now and the competition isn't waiting, and I might not either


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## Big_Ant_TV_Media (Sep 30, 2019)

whos CARBON LOL


Quarkcharmed said:


> No, definitely not Nikon for me. I considered Sony A7RIV but it doesn't overwhelm me enough to switch. But if the wait is to long or Carbon doesn't deliver, I'll switch eventually anyway.


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## fox40phil (Oct 1, 2019)

Sounds like a really bad year for mirrorless... no "normal" megapixel camera with pro features incoming.... only some needs 50+ MP! The best for the most is between 24-40MP.

Wake me up for a 40-45MP 5D- mirrorless body. With IBIS, with HIGH-MP EVF, s controll stick and double card slot.


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## armd (Oct 1, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> I already have a Sony a9 and am using with adapted Canon glass ans Sony glass. The a9 is what has transformed my thinking about what a mirrorless camera can be for professional action photographers. There is a lot to like about the Sony a9, but a lot not to like as well. Thus, I am hopeful Canon can take the pro-mirrorless camera to the next level by doing what Sony has done, but also bringing along with it awesome usability that Sony just does not have.


If Canon can come out with an a9 sensor in 36+ mp, Canon ergonomics, improved battery life, it would be transformative.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

Honestly, an RF 70-200mm f/2.8L would be fine, but I am waiting to see if a 70-135 f/2 comes out to match the 28-70. That wait may be futile. but I'll give it two years. By then, surely, an RF 135mm should get released.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

fox40phil said:


> Sounds like a really bad year for mirrorless... no "normal" megapixel camera with pro features incoming.... only some needs 50+ MP! The best for the most is between 24-40MP.
> 
> Wake me up for a 40-45MP 5D- mirrorless body. With IBIS, with HIGH-MP EVF, s controll stick and double card slot.


Sleep well. Most don't need, or want, 40-45 mega pixels either. I'd bet more on 30-35 mega pixels with a new sensor.


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## Sharlin (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> In that case it should be …. Osmium, Iridium, Platinum, Gold... Then on to considerably less glamorous metals like mercury, lead and bismuth. Uranium and plutonium being top dogs.



True, I read Wikipedia sloppily and got confused


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## mpb001 (Oct 1, 2019)

fox40phil said:


> Sounds like a really bad year for mirrorless... no "normal" megapixel camera with pro features incoming.... only some needs 50+ MP! The best for the most is between 24-40MP.
> 
> Wake me up for a 40-45MP 5D- mirrorless body. With IBIS, with HIGH-MP EVF, s controll stick and double card slot.


I agree. I have a 5DIV and like it a lot. I will not be buying a 5DV. The next Canon I plan I buying is looking like the second iteration of the first R. I think the second model will likely have IBIS and an upgraded sensor within the 36-45 MP range. I really do not even want that high a MP. It would be great if they kept it in the 30-36 MP range. I think this model will probably show up in 2021 is my guess.


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## cellomaster27 (Oct 1, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I've used that combination, but only once. (Simply because I don't have much time for recreational photography due to the demands of my work photography. I must say I was impressed with the sharpness on the R -- probably as a result of not needing AFMA. I didn't notice any slower or faster focusing than on a DSLR. Generally, I think the R tends to hunt more when shooting BIF than a DSLR. But that may be because I need to get more used to the R for that purpose. It seems like when it misses focus, it really, really misses focus and it's hard to find the subject again. I haven't tried it with the new firmware though, so don't know if that will help.



I see. I really like the 5D3 tracking system for BIF. It's not perfect but as long as my panning skills are sub-decent, I get about 80% hit rates with the AI focus. Not bad, really. I tweak and played around with what works for BIF for me in the AF menu. I can't fathom the eos R being worse than the 5D3. That would be a complete shocker. I would love to see canon come out with a 200-600mm like Sony for the RF mount. I'd imagine it'd be shorter like the 70-200 if it ever sees production. not having to deal with AFMA is amazing too!


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## -pekr- (Oct 1, 2019)

fox40phil said:


> Sounds like a really bad year for mirrorless... no "normal" megapixel camera with pro features incoming.... only some needs 50+ MP! The best for the most is between 24-40MP.
> 
> Wake me up for a 40-45MP 5D- mirrorless body. With IBIS, with HIGH-MP EVF, s controll stick and double card slot.



Not sure what might the numbers of ppl wanting a high mpx body quantifiable, but we are waiting for the mirrorless 5DV too. No chance we will buy one without the new sensor tech, IBIS, two card slots and MP being under the 50mpx. If it is going to be in 2021, so be it. My gut feeling is though, that Canon is "brave" enough to do it again - releasing 70+ mpx body noone asks for, just because they can.

As for recent 32mpx APS-C released, if it is indeed an upgraded sensor tech, I just wonder, what would be its performance, if released in a 24mpx form. So far it seems like guys have to use downsampling and other tricks to convince themselves, that the IQ is not worse than the former 24mpx generation. Well, apart from the read-out speed and such goodies. What I am talking here is the necessity to go higher in mpx.

On the other hand, my feeling about the new APS-C release is kind of - positive (thinking of buying m6 II). It seems new generation of sensor tech is here and there is always room for improvement for the years to come. Not sure new high mpx FF could have some mode to use just part of the sensor for the 20-30mpx readout, but that would mean crop and a huge waste of resources, if used permanently? So - keeping the fingers crossed that the high mpx FF is not the new FF standard for years to come. Coming home from wedding with 2-3K+ images keeps our HD space occupied enough even today ...


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## Quarkcharmed (Oct 1, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> My gut feeling is though, that Canon is "brave" enough to do it again - releasing 70+ mpx body noone asks for, just because they can.



I do ask for 80mp+ body. 70 or 60 would also do, but I'd be disappointed if it's less than 60.

There's no disadvantages apart from the raw file size, and if it becomes an issue, that can be fixed by enabling the lossy compression in raw.

Rapid shooting may also be affected but I don't care about high fps.


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## unfocused (Oct 1, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> ...we are waiting for the mirrorless 5DV too...


It's here and it's called "R." If you want something different, you may be in for a wait.


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## unfocused (Oct 1, 2019)

cellomaster27 said:


> I see. I really like the 5D3 tracking system for BIF. It's not perfect but as long as my panning skills are sub-decent, I get about 80% hit rates with the AI focus. Not bad, really. I tweak and played around with what works for BIF for me in the AF menu. I can't fathom the eos R being worse than the 5D3. That would be a complete shocker. I would love to see canon come out with a 200-600mm like Sony for the RF mount. I'd imagine it'd be shorter like the 70-200 if it ever sees production. not having to deal with AFMA is amazing too!


The challenge I'm having with the R and action has a lot to do with my own habits. I've gotten very used to moving the focus point by using my thumb on the touch screen. With subjects that aren't moving fast, it works beautifully, but then when I switch to action, I realize too late that my thumb isn't going to be able to keep up with fast moving subjects and I have to revert back to my old DLSR habits. Mostly just a matter of adapting to different conditions.


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## dtaylor (Oct 1, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> As for recent 32mpx APS-C released, if it is indeed an upgraded sensor tech, I just wonder, what would be its performance, if released in a 24mpx form. So far it seems like guys have to use downsampling and other tricks to convince themselves, that the IQ is not worse than the former 24mpx generation.



No one has to use any tricks to see that the 32mp sensor is better than the 24mp sensor. And if the new sensor was a 24mp model, its performance would be the same as the 80D and you would be complaining about Canon reusing an "old" sensor.


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## GoldWing (Oct 1, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> Why do they announce flagships so close to the Olympics? What if something goes wrong and they won't have a moment to fix that? Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?
> I really don't get this.



I agree with you. Many of us will need a great deal of time with a new body to adjust workflow. Production and Post Production will be affected. Also, why would my shop budget for new bodies we can't account for "bug fix time".

The 1DX and the 1DXMKII both had bugs that were worked out after time. Mirror Box and Circut Boards come to mind right off the bat.

I can't see too many of us who have to get "money shots" placing 3 1DX III's in our kits vs. 3 IDXII's and letting CPS carry the load in Tokyo. I'd rather use a CPS Body and wait until after Tokyo to see "if" we want to adopt the platform. If Canon had given us more time.... perhaps this would have changed.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 1, 2019)

bellorusso said:


> Why do they announce flagships so close to the Olympics? What if something goes wrong and they won't have a moment to fix that? Also would't it be better for business to promote next Olympics flagship way ahead of the even to squeeze more cash on that fact?
> I really don't get this.



Because Canon has the prototypes in the hands of their advisory photographers for a year or so before they announce them. They make sure everything works *before* it is released.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 1, 2019)

Tom W said:


> My baseless prediction is that they'll also offer up a 7D III, based on the 90D sensor, with dual processors, supreme autofocus, and the rest of the 7D stuff that sets it apart. A rugged cropper.
> 
> More speculative - Maybe a hybred optical/LCD viewfinder that allows switching to "mirrorless" mode with the resultant DPAF and increased frame rate. Would be very cool for sports/action on a budget.
> 
> I wonder if they'll throw out any more EF-M lenses, or if that format is going to slide into oblivion. I would love to see an ultra-wide, and a short tele prime, along with some sort of f/4 normal zoom, like 15-60 or something like that. Just dreaming here - I know that there's only so much $$ in the development budget.



Canon has all but officially announced there will not be a 7D Mark III. Canon never officially announces they do not plan to bring a particular rumored product to market. Nikon _has_ officially announced there will be no DSLR replacement of the D500. So it seems both Canon and Nikon are abandoning the concept of an ASP-C DSLR with a high frame rate and top class AF system.

As far as the EF-M lenses go, every lens released so far for the EF-M mount has been around 2.4 inches in diameter. One might assume that any future EF-M lenses would also be restricted to a maximum front element of around 56mm.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

Drcampbellicu said:


> theyre stringing is along
> The 1D will be great but the angst is around a 7d replacement and a pro mirrorless
> I don’t know if the high megapixel mirrorless counts.


There is already a 7D replacement, the 90D. There will be no 7D Mark III.


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## Joules (Oct 1, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> So far it seems like guys have to use downsampling and other tricks to convince themselves, that the IQ is not worse than the former 24mpx generation.


Downsampling is no trick. I think you mean that noise at 1:1 pixel viewing is worse?

That is simply thinking about resolution the wrong way. You're likely viewing your image on a monitor with a fixed size. If you view your image so that it fills the monitor and each image pixel is displayed by one monitor pixel, you are essentially looking at an extreme crop of the image.

You are likely familiar with the concept of cropped images (or images from a crop sensor) appearing more noisy. With a modern sensor, that noise is mostly coming from fluctuations in the light source it self, called shot noise. It is not the fault of the sensor, but a limit of physics.

So what you do is instead of magnifying your image so far that the pixels are displayed 1:1 when comparing noise between images is you magnify the images so that they match each other in terms ofnfield of view, if you imaging comparing shots from a test scene that show the same image. This way, the shot noise has the same contribution to both images and the only difference comes from the noise introduced by the sensor, so dark current and read noise.

Of course if the compared images have different resolutions, one will be downscaled or upscaled more. For comparing the sensor quality, this does not matter though. If you want to measure physics, go ahead and do your comparison at 1:1 for each image, resulting in different field of views and different amount of crop.

That doesn't seem to be a fair comparison though. If you had looked at the images at the same field of view, the higher resolution would simply allow the corresponding sensor to capture more detail. Which isn't such a bad thing.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> There is already a 7D replacement, the 90D. There will be no 7D Mark III.



The 90D is not a replacement for the 7D Mark II. In some areas it is a significant step back. In other areas it is a step forward.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 1, 2019)

Joules said:


> Downsampling is no trick. I think you mean that noise at 1:1 pixel viewing is worse?
> 
> That is simply thinking about resolution the wrong way. You're likely viewing your image on a monitor with a fixed size. If you view your image so that it fills the monitor and each image pixel is displayed by one monitor pixel, you are essentially looking at an extreme crop of the image.
> 
> ...



To put it more simply:

If one is viewing images at 100% (one image pixel = one screen pixel) on a 23" FHD (1920 x 1080) monitor with about 92 ppi:

For a 24 MP camera one is looking at a piece of a 65 x 44 inch enlargement.
For a 32 MP camera one is looking at a piece of a 76 x 50 inch enlargement.

The 16% higher enlargement ratio of the 32 MP camera would make the same performance look worse at 100%.


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## Joules (Oct 1, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> My gut feeling is though, that Canon is "brave" enough to do it again - releasing 70+ mpx body noone asks for, just because they can.





-pekr- said:


> Not sure new high mpx FF could have some mode to use just part of the sensor for the 20-30mpx readout, but that would mean crop and a huge waste of resources, if used permanently?


The M6 II has exactly that kind of crop mode, where it reads only half of the pixels on the 32.5 MP sensor, which in combination with reading only 12bit allows it to do its 30 FPS Burst shooting mode.

I believe the introduction of that feature on a low cost mirrorless body is what spelled the doom for the 7D III. I believe Canon will implement a slightly more refined version of this feature in the high MP R body.

Let's assume that the throughout of the M6 II is not the maximum that Canon can do now and that the high res R and 1DX III will go above the 32.5 * 14 = 455 MP/s throughput. Maybe they'll manage 500 MP/s.

At 83.2 MP that yields 6 FPS and in 32.5 MP crop mode (1.6 crop) it delivers 15.4 FPS. In the M6 II that mode uses an electronic shutter. The 1DX II shutter does full sensor coverage in live view at 16 FPS. Maybe they'll add something like that. Or is it even possible to simply not make the shutter travel along the entire sensor to improve speed? I don't know.

The point is, there are definitely voices for a 7D III. But what could a 7D III offer over the high res R if it really gets such a treatment? Yes, an optical viewfinder. But if the high Res R really becomes what I think it will, it's a nice way for Canon to suck some extra cash out of the 7D III folks. For folks that don't have the cash and don't need the glamor, there's the 90D. And the people that are neither are apparently to few to justify making a new camera just for them in this time of declining sales.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 1, 2019)

Joules said:


> The M6 II has exactly that kind of crop mode, where it reads only half of the pixels on the 32.5 MP sensor, which in combination with reading only 12bit allows it to do its 30 FPS Burst shooting mode.
> 
> I believe the introduction of that feature on a low cost mirrorless body is what spelled the doom for the 7D III. I believe Canon will implement a slightly more refined version of this feature in the high MP R body.
> 
> ...



What about those who want to keep an optical viewfinder (that doesn't suck the life out of batteries when using the viewfinder for long periods between bursts of shots), a 200,000+ shutter life rating, and a body built like a tank? The 90D doesn't offer #2 and #3, and no mirrorless offers #1. There seem to be more than a few of us.

Canon seems to think it can nudge us into a 1D X Mark III, which will cost 3X the 7D Mark II and almost certainly give up a lot of ground in terms of pixel density (the 20.2 MP 7D Mark II has the same pixel density as a 51 MP FF camera).


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## sdz (Oct 1, 2019)

unfocused said:


> It's here and it's called "R." If you want something different, you may be in for a wait.



I suspect the R II will be the true 5x replacement. This camera would need the new sensor platform to combine dual or quad pixel AF with high FPS rates. We shall see sometime next year.


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## GMCPhotographics (Oct 1, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> Canon may very well have a big 2020, but unfortunately for me, part of their big 2020 will not include bring out a Pro-mirrorless body. This is what I am waiting for. For me mirrorless brings so many good things to my way of shooting that I will likely not be purchasing another DSLR. So, wait I will for the pro-mirrorless. Who knows, maybe Canon will surprise me and get a high fps, Continuous AF, with 30 or 30+MP mirrorless out in 2020.


The thing is, our expectations and desires are ahead of the market curve. It's easy for us to say I want XYZ, but it takes a while for products to get from development into customer's hands. 
For a long long while, what I wanted from a digital camera just wasn't available until the original 5D was released....even then it wasn't until the 5DIII came along a lot later which was the camera I really wanted back at the dawn of the digital revolution. 
To quite the late Douglas Adams: "Science is what we dream of...Technology is what we get stuck with". In this case, we are waiting for the reality of Technology to catch up with the dream of science.

It's going to be a fair few years until we get a Rf format camera that can go toe to toe or eclipse the current 35mm DSLR camera bodies. It's a simple product maturity issue and technology development cycle. We will probably have to be patient and wait for 3-4 years until we see the cameras that we really want on the shelves of our local camera shops. 

In the mean time...still rocking my pair of mkIII's


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## Pape (Oct 1, 2019)

I dont quite get why peoples complain high megapixel camera files would take too much about storage space.
High megapixel jpg is lot smaller than low megapixel raw. At least on image sharpness high megapixel jpg gives lot more information what low pixel raw how ever you waste time editing it.


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## Bahrd (Oct 1, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The 90D is not a replacement for the 7D Mark II. In some areas it is a significant step back. In other areas it is a step forward.


I suppose the market for 7D III is so small that even a "low-hanging fruit" like the 1D X Mk II with the 90D's sensor is not worth the R&D effort.


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## AlanF (Oct 1, 2019)

Pape said:


> I dont quite get why peoples complain high megapixel camera files would take too much about storage space.
> High megapixel jpg is lot smaller than low megapixel raw. At least on image sharpness high megapixel jpg gives lot more information what low pixel raw how ever you waste time editing it.


I store both the original raw and the jpeg in case I want to edit differently in the future.


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## cruso (Oct 1, 2019)

Tom W said:


> My baseless prediction is that they'll also offer up a 7D III, based on the 90D sensor, with dual processors, supreme autofocus, and the rest of the 7D stuff that sets it apart. A rugged cropper.
> 
> More speculative - Maybe a hybred optical/LCD viewfinder that allows switching to "mirrorless" mode with the resultant DPAF and increased frame rate. Would be very cool for sports/action on a budget.
> 
> I wonder if they'll throw out any more EF-M lenses, or if that format is going to slide into oblivion. I would love to see an ultra-wide, and a short tele prime, along with some sort of f/4 normal zoom, like 15-60 or something like that. Just dreaming here - I know that there's only so much $$ in the development budget.


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## cruso (Oct 1, 2019)

I hope your right I have been for the 7d3 for what seemed ages and was disappointed its been shelved rumours are saying the mirrorless have not tempted me to move as I have a lot of money tide up in glass for wildlife shooting they are now saying February for something special to be released ?


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## scyrene (Oct 1, 2019)

Tom W said:


> I wonder if they'll throw out any more EF-M lenses, or if that format is going to slide into oblivion. I would love to see an ultra-wide, and a short tele prime, along with some sort of f/4 normal zoom, like 15-60 or something like that. Just dreaming here - I know that there's only so much $$ in the development budget.



I imagine there might be one or two more EF-M lenses, but nothing high end, because that's not how the line is positioned. Not so much sliding into oblivion as never getting above its station, which is small, light, and relatively cheap.


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## scyrene (Oct 1, 2019)

12Broncos said:


> I was hoping for at least an announcement in October, however, we have something to look forward to during the dreariest/longest (even though it's the shortest month) month of the year.



November is a much drearier month imho


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## canonnews (Oct 1, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> Canon may very well have a big 2020, but unfortunately for me, part of their big 2020 will not include bring out a Pro-mirrorless body. This is what I am waiting for. For me mirrorless brings so many good things to my way of shooting that I will likely not be purchasing another DSLR. So, wait I will for the pro-mirrorless. Who knows, maybe Canon will surprise me and get a high fps, Continuous AF, with 30 or 30+MP mirrorless out in 2020.


what makes you think they won't?

the 2021 article was a 1 series RF mount camera. not a "pro" or a 5D'ish camera.


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## amorse (Oct 1, 2019)

unfocused said:


> It's here and it's called "R." If you want something different, you may be in for a wait.


I'm not quite sure I buy into that, and I say that not as a lamentation of the R (it's the most interesting mirrorless on the market for me at the moment), but rather as a reflection on what buyers of the 5D series are willing to pay versus what the R retails for. If the R was indeed a full replacement for the 5D series, I would have expected Canon to price it more comparably to the 5D IV. Then again, Canon may be changing their segmentation, moving the 5D equivalent down market a bit, and adding something above it. Either way, I really think that if consumers show they'll pay $3500 for a body of 5D stature, Canon will ensure they have a product priced in that realm, if not higher.


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## -pekr- (Oct 1, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> No one has to use any tricks to see that the 32mp sensor is better than the 24mp sensor. And if the new sensor was a 24mp model, its performance would be the same as the 80D and you would be complaining about Canon reusing an "old" sensor.



You must be a real sensor guru if you think that by taking recent generation of sensor tech and makeing its lower resolution variant all you get is the identical performance to the previous generation of sensor tech?


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## JohnC (Oct 1, 2019)

amorse said:


> I'm not quite sure I buy into that, and I say that not as a lamentation of the R (it's the most interesting mirrorless on the market for me at the moment), but rather as a reflection on what buyers of the 5D series are willing to pay versus what the R retails for. If the R was indeed a full replacement for the 5D series, I would have expected Canon to price it more comparably to the 5D IV. Then again, Canon may be changing their segmentation, moving the 5D equivalent down market a bit, and adding something above it. Either way, I really think that if consumers show they'll pay $3500 for a body of 5D stature, Canon will ensure they have a product priced in that realm, if not higher.




I agree, there is a lot of monetary real estate between the R and the current 1 series. I seriously doubt Canon will bring prices down that far. They might some in order to gain market share in mirroless as quickly as possible (higher end mirroless) but I don’t think we will see a 4-4.5k 1 series level camera. 

I do think we will see a 3.3-3.7k high level camera that sits between. Who knows what they will call it.


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## criscokkat (Oct 1, 2019)

I think the comments about the market for the 7dII drying up or being too small might be on the money, but in a different way. I think the majority of the 7d users wanted accurate focusing at high speeds. The dual card slots and weatherproof housing was a bonus for the majority of the users, but not critical.

The new m6II has shown that the baseline experience with the new Canon sensors can hit 14fps with very good focus tracking, and with a greater focus on electronics and firmware within the camera the m6II has given us a sneak peak at what could be done with a much higher MP count full frame body when it's cropped down for speed.

I've always thought that there were two different classes of people who invested in the 7d series:
1) Birders and sports photographers who need the crop factor to put maximum pixels on subjects that are far away and difficult to focus on.This group of people is much more likely to invest in high end (3k+) lenses. The reason the 1dx is not used is mostly because of pixels on target, and not as much because of money. This is also the group more likely to have a critical need for weatherproofing. This is also a much much smaller % of buyers.

2) Prosumers comprise most of this group, and are primarily people who wanted something that can focus well on fast moving subjects and have fast fps, but are generally not using anything bigger than a 70-200 or maybe a 100-400.

The number 1's can afford a more expensive full frame camera that can be used as full frame when needed, but can have much higher speeds when used as a crop with the same amount of pixels on target that APS-C could do. That camera will have the dual cards, ibis and weather sealing expected for that class of camera.

The people in group #2 are way more price sensitive, and many of them had already bled off to the 80d (and presumably 90d). The ones who are left who are more concerned with fast accurate focus will be able to jump into the next generation R or RP in a few years. Some of them could jump into the m6ii now. I imagine full frame R or RP will be in the 8-10 FPS with full tracking by the time they come out. And there's still a chance that Canon might release a 90d level of r-mount aps-c. If that happens, they add a bit more buffer to the internals used in the m6ii and they've hit the 7diii speeds and focus.


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## AccipiterQ (Oct 1, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> I already have a Sony a9 and am using with adapted Canon glass ans Sony glass. The a9 is what has transformed my thinking about what a mirrorless camera can be for professional action photographers. There is a lot to like about the Sony a9, but a lot not to like as well. Thus, I am hopeful Canon can take the pro-mirrorless camera to the next level by doing what Sony has done, but also bringing along with it awesome usability that Sony just does not have.



What do you not like about the a9? I've gotten weary of waiting for a pro Canon mirrorless and thinking of making the jump. Also, is there a decline in the quality of shots with the Canon+Adapter on the a9?


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## AccipiterQ (Oct 1, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I think the comments about the market for the 7dII drying up or being too small might be on the money, but in a different way. I think the majority of the 7d users wanted accurate focusing at high speeds. The dual card slots and weatherproof housing was a bonus for the majority of the users, but not critical.
> 
> The new m6II has shown that the baseline experience with the new Canon sensors can hit 14fps with very good focus tracking, and with a greater focus on electronics and firmware within the camera the m6II has given us a sneak peak at what could be done with a much higher MP count full frame body when it's cropped down for speed.
> 
> ...




It just seems odd to me that'd they'd abandon the birders/sports photographers, I refuse to believe there's no APS-C coming in mirrorless. You're basically ceding the entire sports/birding market to Sony with their a6500 or whatever it is. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but within a couple years those 7Dii's are going to be absolutely ancient in comparison.


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## Etienne (Oct 1, 2019)

Headline: "Readers should get excited NOW, great things coming for Canon users in 2028 ! "


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## [email protected] (Oct 1, 2019)

AccipiterQ said:


> What do you not like about the a9? I've gotten weary of waiting for a pro Canon mirrorless and thinking of making the jump. Also, is there a decline in the quality of shots with the Canon+Adapter on the a9?



I find that the EF lenses + the Sigma MC-11 adapter on the A9 is pretty fantastic. The AF is superior to my now-sold 1DX2, due in large part to the Sony firmware upgrades (anything > version 4). That new software provided a kind of tracking we haven't yet gotten yet on Canon DSLRs. The Canon R's new firmware reportedly starts to equal this, but the frames per second with continuous AF/tracking are too anemic (3 fps) for my uses. Bodes well for Canon, though, if they can put out something with higher throughput. 

The A7r4, however, does not AF or track nearly as well as the A9 or 1DX2 when using adapted lenses. I should note I'm using Sigma Art primes on the MC-11 adapter, so its a best case scenario.

Using native lenses on the A7r4 are better, but still not as good AF as the A9, nor 1DX2.

Will be interesting in three weeks to see the rumored A92 come out, and see how it may combine some of the new A7r4 features with A9-class AF and tracking.


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## [email protected] (Oct 1, 2019)

The "*Canon is gearing up for a big 2020*" headline put in another context:

"Farmer Closes Barn Door, Gears up for Big Cattle Search in 2020"
Maybe more to the point...
"Man Bets Farm on Innovative Milking Machines; Expects Cow Delivery as Soon as 2020"

Then there is the news from the County Fair, as covered by CanonRumors (now quarterly)...
"Canon Shooters Win Thumb Twiddling Competition"


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## stevelee (Oct 1, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The 90D is not a replacement for the 7D Mark II. In some areas it is a significant step back. In other areas it is a step forward.


I am not one of them, but there are folks for whom the 7D line is the best camera choice there is, as best as I can tell. They know who they are. If they want something newer than the Mark II, they need to decide on their priorities and decide what compromises are worth it to get something else they want. For right now, it seems to me that the best solution for most of these folks is to use the 7D II until it breaks, and then buy another one (new, used, refurb). To get other features they want and to preserve the 7D II as long as possible, maybe a second camera with those features would be a good choice for their non-bird-or-sports-or-whatever shooting.


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## four0seven (Oct 1, 2019)

I was at Epcot last Friday to shoot fireworks, and I was standing next to a guy who claimed he was shooting with a prototype Canon 1DX Mark III. He said the camera body was of a Mark II, but all internals were of the prototype camera. He didn’t share any specs with me—I only talked to him briefly—but he did show me some of the previews he’s taken with the camera, and I was impressed with what I saw. I think Canon users will be very happy with the images this camera will produce.


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## SeanMalik (Oct 1, 2019)

Wish Canon will release a RF to EF lens converter to use with 1DX 3. This camera will be even better with RF lenses.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The 90D is not a replacement for the 7D Mark II. In some areas it is a significant step back. In other areas it is a step forward.


You know what I meant


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## criscokkat (Oct 1, 2019)

AccipiterQ said:


> It just seems odd to me that'd they'd abandon the birders/sports photographers, I refuse to believe there's no APS-C coming in mirrorless. You're basically ceding the entire sports/birding market to Sony with their a6500 or whatever it is. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but within a couple years those 7Dii's are going to be absolutely ancient in comparison.


That's my point, I don't think they are abandoning them at all! 

The m6II can already track with a level comparable to the 7dii, and can put more pixels on target. However the form factor isn't the best, and it could use more buffer. I think we will see an r-mount prosumer camera in aps-c. I do not think they will have dual cards and/or 1dx level weatherproofing. 

However the other pro features in the 7dii (outside of the speed/focus) will probably only show up only in full frame cameras. Those mirrorless cameras will be able to go into a crop mode similar to the m6ii that will probably surpass the speed that the aps-c cameras can capture, while also putting more pixels on target. There might even be multiple crop modes that get progressively faster. 

In short, I think 8-10fps will be the minimum of any future camera sensors, and much faster when in crop modes. The niche that the 7dii filled that other cameras could not match got much smaller, so that's why it went away.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

Pape said:


> I dont quite get why peoples complain high megapixel camera files would take too much about storage space.
> High megapixel jpg is lot smaller than low megapixel raw. At least on image sharpness high megapixel jpg gives lot more information what low pixel raw how ever you waste time editing it.


Some of us save the raw and the jpg. I do. I shouldn’t assume anyone else does. I might be wrong, but I read that every time a jpeg gets saved it loses some information. So for archiving I save both.


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## bbb34 (Oct 1, 2019)

four0seven said:


> I was at Epcot last Friday to shoot fireworks, and I was standing next to a guy who claimed he was shooting with a prototype Canon 1DX Mark III. He said the camera body was of a Mark II, but all internals were of the prototype camera. He didn’t share any specs with me—I only talked to him briefly—but he did show me some of the previews he’s taken with the camera, and I was impressed with what I saw. I think Canon users will be very happy with the images this camera will produce.



And you could tell a difference between this "prototype" and a Mark II based on the backside display? A likely story!   

Welcome at CR!


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## richperson (Oct 1, 2019)

I really hope that whatever they announce, it is ready soon after in February. I know there is a lot of 7D love in here, but I had to relegate mine to the storage box for the football game I shot Friday night. The light was decent, but required me shooting at ISO 10k, which is just not really useable on a 7Dii for me. I ended up with the 1DXii on the 400mm and the R on my 200mm f/2--which is currently one of my favorite combinations. The fps on the R was really not great, but even slow fps with subject in focus and low noise beats 10fps images that are unusable.

I love my 7Dii when there is a lot of light, but in reality I only get that in less than 10% of my venues.

Looking forward to another full frame body with a decent fps in servo mode.


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## Architect1776 (Oct 1, 2019)

SeanMalik said:


> Wish Canon will release a RF to EF lens converter to use with 1DX 3. This camera will be even better with RF lenses.



Is this serious?
Pretending it is.
The RF lenses are needing a much shorter distance to the sensor than the EF lenses.
The adapter would need additional optics that would degrade the image.
Same problem with FD to EF converters needing to use additional optics to get to infinity.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> As far as the EF-M lenses go, every lens released so far for the EF-M mount has been around 2.4 inches in diameter. One might assume that any future EF-M lenses would also be restricted to a maximum front element of around 56mm.



There are third party lenses that break this restriction...but the larger point remains. As long as Canon self-imposes that restriction, M lenses aren't going to take the world by storm.

Fortunately, every EF and EF-S lens ever made will work...with an adapter. (And I found out how to get a Canon adapter for fairly cheap.)


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> Is this serious?
> Pretending it is.
> The RF lenses are needing a much shorter distance to the sensor than the EF lenses.
> The adapter would need additional optics that would degrade the image.
> Same problem with FD to EF converters needing to use additional optics to get to infinity.


Why I do not collect FD lenses at all. No extra optics needed for M42 screw mounts.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> There are third party lenses that break this restriction...but the larger point remains. As long as Canon self-imposes that restriction, M lenses aren't going to take the world by storm.
> 
> Fortunately, every EF and EF-S lens ever made will work...with an adapter. (And I found out how to get a Canon adapter for fairly cheap.)


Actually, it is imposed by the market. If there was $ in it, Canon would be all over it. Especially since the industry is gasping for air right now.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I store both the original raw and the jpeg in case I want to edit differently in the future.



Same here. In fact, so far I haven't done anything with raw files, but I expect I might in the future and storage is dirt cheap.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Same here. In fact, so far I haven't done anything with raw files, but I expect I might in the future and storage is dirt cheap.


Just had to get the wife an external drive for her photos (600gb worth of photos). 2 terabites for $60 from Western Digital. Fits in a front shirt pocket.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Actually, it is imposed by the market. If there was $ in it, Canon would be all over it. Especially since the industry is gasping for air right now.



I was referring to the diameter restriction when I talked about "self-imposed." The market might drive Canon to NOT develop a new M lens (or to do so). I can't see how it's going to drive them to ONLY develop M lenses with that outside diameter, and refuse to develop a lens a bit wider.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Just had to get the wife an external drive for her photos (600gb worth of photos). 2 terabites for $60 from Western Digital. Fits in a front shirt pocket.



Yes, those WDs are pretty nifty. I'm going a lot more expensive; I'm buying a home NAS, but I intend to back it up with Western Digital 4TB units--I bought a bunch on sale the other day for $100 apiece.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> I was referring to the diameter restriction when I talked about "self-imposed." The market might drive Canon to NOT develop a new M lens (or to do so). I can't see how it's going to drive them to ONLY develop M lenses with that outside diameter, and refuse to develop a lens a bit wider.


True, but there are some fast lenses for the M. It is possible to make fast lenses with a small diameter. I have a bunch of them (not M).  Again, if Canon, through Canon's market research, could see a significant profit in bigger lenses for the M, Canon would be all over it.


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## cayenne (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Same here. In fact, so far I haven't done anything with raw files, but I expect I might in the future and storage is dirt cheap.


Oh goodness, PLEASE start using the RAW images.....


I mean, sure, you should always try to get it right in camera, but in the 'heat of battle' quite often, you miss this or that, and I'd hate to think I"d lost a really great shot because some settings were off.....too much fo jpeg resurrection, but could easily be fixed with a RAW work flow.

And like you said, these days, drive space is cheap, a commodity really.

Just my $0.02,

cayenne


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## rbielefeld (Oct 1, 2019)

[


AccipiterQ said:


> What do you not like about the a9? I've gotten weary of waiting for a pro Canon mirrorless and thinking of making the jump. Also, is there a decline in the quality of shots with the Canon+Adapter on the a9?


First let me address the quality of the images you get using Canon adapted glass on the Sony a9. The answer is no, there is no decline in quality that I have seen. Image quality with the Canon 100-400, 600 f/4 II, 16-35 f/4 IS and a few others has been excellent. You lose fps and focusing speed a bit when adapting Canon glass to the a9, but image quality is awesome.

With regards to what I do not like about the a9 versus Canon bodies such as the 1DxII and 5D4. First let me say that there is nothing about the Sony a9 that is a deal killer for me, or I would not be using it. Most of what I do not like revolves around ergonomics/usability.

It is a very small camera and without the battery grip it is too small for me to hold comfortably for long periods of time and use with larger lens efficiently. With the battery grip I love it. I do not like how Sony has treated/positioned the various wheels and buttons on the camera body. The worst is the AF-ON button as it is too small and barely raised above the surface of the camera making it hard to find and press at times. I have gotten used to it, but the new a9II will have and a7rIV has restyled buttons that are/will be much better. The wheel located in front of the shutter button and on the rear of the body are orientated the wrong way for easy use IMO, but again you can get used to it. The rear LCD screen is small and has poor resolution compared to Canon. Sony embeds very small Jpegs in their RAW files versus Canon embedding full size Jpegs. This does not seem like a big deal until you want to inspect the images on your media cards for critical sharpness prior to importing them onto your computer. You cannot zoom in to 1:1 to check sharpness because the imbedded Jpeg is too in resolution, you must import the RAWs and build 1:1 previews before you can zoom in to inspect sharpness. This is a big deal to me based on my post-processing workflow. May not be for you. Lastly, how Sony organized the menu of the a9 and the terminology they use is not intuitive. But again you can get past that issue, well at least I did. 

What I really like about the a9 is no black-out EVF that is even better than a DSLRs mirror flipping stop motion effect when it comes to not interfering with your ability to track very fast moving subjects. The a9 at 20 fps has no black-out what so ever. You just follow your subject like you would with your naked eyes. Even the delay is so small that keeping up with a fast target is no problem. The other aspect of the a9 that has no rival (IMO) at this point is the AF system. It is really amazing and functions flawlessly in continuous at 20 fps. I have been able to get more long bursts of birds in flight where every image is tack sharp than I was ever able to get with my 1DxII, and I do a lot of bird in flight photography and have been doing it for many years. I am talking about 90+ images all tack sharp. To me this is mirrorless at its best (for now). 

I hope this was somewhat helpful.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> True, but there are some fast lenses for the M. It is possible to make fast lenses with a small diameter. I have a bunch of them (not M).  Again, if Canon, through Canon's market research, could see a significant profit in bigger lenses for the M, Canon would be all over it.



It is possible to make fast lenses with a small diameter--if they are short focal length as well! And the EF-M 32 is f/1.4 (not earthshatteringly fast, but fast). But any sort of long zoom (or long prime) is going to be slow--very slow--if they insist on making it skinny in outside diameter. I own EF primes that are reasonably fast, but they are ALL fatter than the EF-M lenses.

The point I'm trying to make is not completely incompatible with yours--yours is correct and prior to mine. Canon COULD make fatter lenses, that would be faster (or longer). But they'd have to want to make a new M lens in the first place and don't see a market for it (or enough of one to justify moving people off RF development) (your point, I believe).

But what would happen if they DID decide to throw some love in the EF-M direction? Would they finally break down and decide--"let's make a fatter lens so it doesn't have to be so slow"? Or would they stick with a restriction that has no <I>engineering</I> (or even marketing) reason that I can see?

The Canon rep I spoke to a few weeks ago was visibly annoyed by my Tamron 18-200, but if he doesn't like it--Canon can damned well give me an alternative (if they get over their skinny fetish). If Canon doesn't, he's got no real right to complain.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Oh goodness, PLEASE start using the RAW images.....
> 
> 
> I mean, sure, you should always try to get it right in camera, but in the 'heat of battle' quite often, you miss this or that, and I'd hate to think I"d lost a really great shot because some settings were off.....too much fo jpeg resurrection, but could easily be fixed with a RAW work flow.
> ...



The vast majority of the stuff where I don't find the jpeg satisfactory is because I bunged up the focus somehow. Of course that can't be fixed with a raw file.

Of the remainder, it's basically going to be white balance, or something that can be fixed with crop. The latter can be done with JPEG...the former requires that I reboot my machine into Windows (normally in Linux) because DPP doesn't have a Linux version.


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> It is possible to make fast lenses with a small diameter--if they are short focal length as well! And the EF-M 32 is f/1.4 (not earthshatteringly fast, but fast). But any sort of long zoom (or long prime) is going to be slow--very slow--if they insist on making it skinny in outside diameter. I own EF primes that are reasonably fast, but they are ALL fatter than the EF-M lenses.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is not completely incompatible with yours--yours is correct and prior to mine. Canon COULD make fatter lenses, that would be faster (or longer). But they'd have to want to make a new M lens in the first place and don't see a market for it (or enough of one to justify moving people off RF development) (your point, I believe).
> 
> ...


Steve I am really trying to understand what you are saying. f/1.4 is very fast. The Tamron you mention is anything but fast and is fat compared to the M line. So I don't see how that is any different than using a "fat" Canon lens. In fact, at 300mm the Tamron is very slow. You could always get a Canon 400mm f/5.6L. 

Anyway, I suspect most people don't want a big lens on the M. Tamron or an adapted EF or EF-s) must fill the niche for those that do. So I don't think Canon cares about the niche... or feels the EF, EFs lines fill it.


----------



## Pape (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Some of us save the raw and the jpg. I do. I shouldn’t assume anyone else does. I might be wrong, but I read that every time a jpeg gets saved it loses some information. So for archiving I save both.


Just trying say storaging problems stupid excuse not to like high megapixel camera 
Not sure if jpgs losing anymore much information if at all when saved many times. and you can turn original to tiff or something when editing.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Steve I am really trying to understand what you are saying. f/1.4 is very fast. The Tamron you mention is anything but fast and is fat compared to the M line. So I don't see how that is any different than using a "fat" Canon lens. In fact, at 300mm the Tamron is very slow. You could always get a Canon 400mm f/5.6L.
> 
> Anyway, I suspect most people don't want a big lens on the M. Tamron or an adapted EF or EF-s) must fill the niche for those that do. So I don't think Canon cares about the niche... or feels the EF, EFs lines fill it.



OK...I'll try to lay it out a different way.

Canon has put out a bunch of different EF-M lenses. For whatever reason, they decided they must all be the same rather skinny diameter. That limits their options. Sure it's possible to do a 32mm f1.4 lens (and it's a good one), but they wouldn't be able to do an 85mm f1.4 (and likely, not even an 85 f/1.8). They COULD make such a lens...if they were willing to make it physically wider. There's no physical reason they couldn't do that--they just don't want to.

I brought up the Tamron not because it's fast (it's not), but because it is almost certainly faster than anything that could be done by Canon, making an 18-200 (not 300) zoom in the diameter they have imposed on themselves. It's a native EF-M mount lens. But it's wider than Canon's lenses are. It works, so there's no _engineering_ reason for Canon to make only skinny lenses.

Of course all of that only matters if Canon discerns a market for more EF-M lenses in the first place. But if and when they do, I hope they're willing to make them fatter to give us a better selection. Not doing so means they are forcing themselves to only make short and fast, or long and slow, or zooms that are slow, lenses.

The good news is, one can simply adapt EF and EF-S lenses that aren't artificially restricted in girth, so that's what I'm going to do for cases where my 18-200 and 32 (and other EF-M native lenses) won't do the job.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Just had to get the wife an external drive for her photos (600gb worth of photos). 2 terabites for $60 from Western Digital. Fits in a front shirt pocket.


You'll have to buy her a shirt now.


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## HikeBike (Oct 1, 2019)

mpb001 said:


> I agree. I have a 5DIV and like it a lot. I will not be buying a 5DV. The next Canon I plan I buying is looking like the second iteration of the first R. I think the second model will likely have IBIS and an upgraded sensor within the 36-45 MP range. I really do not even want that high a MP. It would be great if they kept it in the 30-36 MP range. I think this model will probably show up in 2021 is my guess.


I'll go with 2022...new processor, new sensor (but keeping it around 30 MP), IBIS, no touch bar, still a single card slot.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> OK...I'll try to lay it out a different way.
> 
> Canon has put out a bunch of different EF-M lenses. For whatever reason, they decided they must all be the same rather skinny diameter. That limits their options. Sure it's possible to do a 32mm f1.4 lens (and it's a good one), but they wouldn't be able to do an 85mm f1.4 (and likely, not even an 85 f/1.8). They COULD make such a lens...if they were willing to make it physically wider. There's no physical reason they couldn't do that--they just don't want to.
> 
> ...


I guess my issue is with you using words like "forcing" and such. They are not "forcing" themselves to do anything. Market forces.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I guess my issue is with you using words like "forcing" and such. They are not "forcing" themselves to do anything. Market forces.



How does the market explain their decision to make all EF-M lenses the same outside diameter?

I can understand how the market dictates they shouldn't develop more such lenses. (I regret that fact, but I understand that it is a fact.) But how did it cause them to make the ones they have developed...the same outside diameter?


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## JohnC (Oct 1, 2019)

It seems to me the eos m series is all about size and weight. Call it the “ultralight ilc system”. Canon seems to bringing the body performance up enough to at least “approach” DSLR crop camera performance. That is great news.

In keeping with the original intent of the product line however, keeping the lens offerings physically small helps complete the product line.

I also think you might see larger and faster lenses if they didn’t have compatibility with an extensive array of just those properties through a well performing adapter.

Yes those options are not native mount, but the desire for some to have that isn’t really in step with the intent of the product line anyway. 

“Here is our product line that fulfills x need”. Should you want to expand its capability to address other needs here we have provided the following options for doing so.”

“If you want that expanded capability in native mount we have this really nice line of crop DSLR bodies to choose from”

Etc etc


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> How does the market explain their decision to make all EF-M lenses the same outside diameter?
> 
> I can understand how the market dictates they shouldn't develop more such lenses. (I regret that fact, but I understand that it is a fact.) But how did it cause them to make the ones they have developed...the same outside diameter?


Good question. My answer would be that the typical M buyer, the driver of that market, doesn't want big lenses. Those that do can adapt or buy something else. So that's the market. Like I said before, if Canon thought there to be significant profit in bigger lenses for the M, then Canon would go for it. With that end of the market precipitously shrinking, Canon has decided to put the main focus elsewhere. They aren't forcing themselves to not do anything, the market is. Just like Canon isn't forcing itself to not make TS-E lenses for the M. The market for the M is not the same as the market for ASPC or full frame. Each are a separate market . Exactly like Canon making both regular EF lenses as well as the L line. Separate markets.

Personally, I would really, really, really like to see a RF 70-135 f/2 zoom for my personal needs and to match the 28-70. Will it happen? Who knows? Will I be disappointed if it doesn't happen? Sure, but I can't blame Canon for that.


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## unfocused (Oct 1, 2019)

amorse said:


> I'm not quite sure I buy into that, and I say that not as a lamentation of the R (it's the most interesting mirrorless on the market for me at the moment), but rather as a reflection on what buyers of the 5D series are willing to pay versus what the R retails for. If the R was indeed a full replacement for the 5D series, I would have expected Canon to price it more comparably to the 5D IV. Then again, Canon may be changing their segmentation, moving the 5D equivalent down market a bit, and adding something above it. Either way, I really think that if consumers show they'll pay $3500 for a body of 5D stature, Canon will ensure they have a product priced in that realm, if not higher.



I actually agree with your logic. Many of the people on this forum focus on specifications and subtle differences between DSLR and Mirrorless models, but I expect that Canon does focus more on market segmentation. While with only two models currently available, it's hard to say anything with certainty, it does seem that so far, Canon has priced their R models in empty slots rather than directly against existing DSLRs. The RP below the 6D and the R below the 5D. 

If this pattern holds true, they may be looking at the price points of the 5D and 1D and deciding what they can slot in there as well. You are correct, they have a lot of room to play with between the R and the 5D and even more room to play with between the R and the 1D.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I actually agree with your logic. Many of the people on this forum focus on specifications and subtle differences between DSLR and Mirrorless models, but I expect that Canon does focus more on market segmentation. While with only two models currently available, it's hard to say anything with certainty, it does seem that so far, Canon has priced their R models in empty slots rather than directly against existing DSLRs. The RP below the 6D and the R below the 5D.
> 
> If this pattern holds true, they may be looking at the price points of the 5D and 1D and deciding what they can slot in there as well. You are correct, they have a lot of room to play with between the R and the 5D and even more room to play with between the R and the 1D.


The great thing is that if a 5D V comes out, the price of the 5D Mark IV may drop to $2k... what I paid for my 5D Mark III + plus a free printer and a 1 year subscription to KelbyOne, and a bunch of other stuff. Sold the printer without the UPC for $300. So my 5D Mark III was very inexpensive compared to the initial release price. So one could say I got the 5D mark III for less than the R.  Unfortunately, I had 5 big surgeries that year and never took advantage of Kelby after signing up.


----------



## slclick (Oct 1, 2019)

Pape said:


> Just trying say storaging problems stupid excuse not to like high megapixel camera
> Not sure if jpgs losing anymore much information if at all when saved many times. and you can turn original to tiff or something when editing.


What JPEGSs do is utilize an algorithm for color space, tone, sharpness and white balance that may or may not be what your intentions were lined up with. Shooting RAW allows you greater latitude to make those changes and not be limited. It's like shooting Tri-X and being able to dodge and burn to your hearts content or shooting TMax 100 and truly needing to get it right in camera.


----------



## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

Good stuff!

Perhaps I've been approaching this from the wrong POV. I've been assuming that the EF-M series is supposed to (eventually) replace/displace the entire DSLR APS-C lineup--including even the 7D, perhaps! (Certainly the M6 II is a step in that direction!) And that they'd eventually replace their EF-S lineup with EF-M lenses too, and create EF-M versions of many of their EF lenses. (In parallel with this, working on RF lenses for full frame, eventually simply discontinuing EF and EF-S lenses entirely.)

Well, maybe that's the plan. But it's not going to happen with the EF-M lenses they have now, and can't do so without (future, hypothetical) EF-M lenses fatter than what they're doing now. So, IF that is their goal, their size restriction is going to get in their way. 

But what if their goal is slightly different...to replace the bodies but not the lenses? What if they intend to keep EF and EF-S around indefinitely?

So perhaps the M series is really a two-pronged strategy: Lower grade EF-M lenses at the introductory level, then if someone graduates from that (or starts out above that), then...hand them an adapter and say "Look at these 60 odd lenses you can use with your camera. Yes, it will be bulky but there's no way around that; you're asking for something that cannot be done in a small package."

That, of course, would depend on them NOT discontinuing EF and EF-S lenses en masse at some point in the future, otherwise they strand the APS-C enthusiasts/semi pros.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Good question. My answer would be that the typical M buyer, the driver of that market, doesn't want big lenses. Those that do can adapt or buy something else. So that's the market. Like I said before, if Canon thought there to be significant profit in bigger lenses for the M, then Canon would go for it. With that end of the market precipitously shrinking, Canon has decided to put the main focus elsewhere. They aren't forcing themselves to not do anything, the market is. Just like Canon isn't forcing itself to not make TS-E lenses for the M. The market for the M is not the same as the market for ASPC or full frame. Each are a separate market . Exactly like Canon making both regular EF lenses as well as the L line. Separate markets.
> 
> Personally, I would really, really, really like to see a RF 70-135 f/2 zoom for my personal needs and to match the 28-70. Will it happen? Who knows? Will I be disappointed if it doesn't happen? Sure, but I can't blame Canon for that.



Please see my response to JohnC.


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## cayenne (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> The vast majority of the stuff where I don't find the jpeg satisfactory is because I bunged up the focus somehow. Of course that can't be fixed with a raw file.
> 
> Of the remainder, it's basically going to be white balance, or something that can be fixed with crop. The latter can be done with JPEG...the former requires that I reboot my machine into Windows (normally in Linux) because DPP doesn't have a Linux version.



Why not just run a windows VM in your linux box to do what you need?
I love linux too, but any tool for the job you know.

I tend to use my Mac for my photo/video needs....and tools like Affinity Photo and On1 RAW for my photos....they have Windows versions too and are very reasonable price, work well with RAW and aren't on the Adobe *rental* model.

I'd suggest looking into it.....play with the RAW workflow, it really does offer a LOT, especially with these tools.

C


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## JohnC (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Good stuff!
> 
> Perhaps I've been approaching this from the wrong POV. I've been assuming that the EF-M series is supposed to (eventually) replace/displace the entire DSLR APS-C lineup--including even the 7D, perhaps! (Certainly the M6 II is a step in that direction!) And that they'd eventually replace their EF-S lineup with EF-M lenses too, and create EF-M versions of many of their EF lenses. (In parallel with this, working on RF lenses for full frame, eventually simply discontinuing EF and EF-S lenses entirely.)
> 
> ...



I actually do think that ultimately the efs and EF lenses will go away. I don’t think we are extremely close to it yet, primarily because I think Canon is smart enough to let it happen organically. They HAVE to think long term. 

As it happen I suspect we will see really nice adaption between the r series and the m series regarding lenses. 

I do think that at some point you will either see crop sensor R models OR, they will refine the technology to enable a crop mode that gives you all the advantages of the smaller sensor (FPS, reach, etc) in the same body with a high resolution full frame. The electronics might be complicated but the exterior and most physical parts of the body are exactly the same. Helps spread out that r&d cost and also ergonomics to remain the same.


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## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> So, IF that is their goal, their size restriction is going to get in their way.



I've read it. I won't comment on this anymore after this: There is no self imposed "size restriction". There is a market restriction being imposed by the market. This has become a circular argument.  I get that you don't like the Canon M offerings. You are obviously not the target market.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> How does the market explain their decision to make all EF-M lenses the same outside diameter?



There was a time when Canon and Nikon both made almost all their lenses the same outside diameter in order to simplify filter interchangeability. They even marketed it as a selling point. The exceptions were telephotos that could not retain the same outside diameter. If you look at Canon EF lenses, you will see that they still try to maintain some consistency with filter sizes. My 16-35 f4, 24-105, 70-200 and 100-400 all take the same filter size.


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## BillB (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Good question. My answer would be that the typical M buyer, the driver of that market, doesn't want big lenses. Those that do can adapt or buy something else. So that's the market. Like I said before, if Canon thought there to be significant profit in bigger lenses for the M, then Canon would go for it. With that end of the market precipitously shrinking, Canon has decided to put the main focus elsewhere. They aren't forcing themselves to not do anything, the market is. Just like Canon isn't forcing itself to not make TS-E lenses for the M. The market for the M is not the same as the market for ASPC or full frame. Each are a separate market . Exactly like Canon making both regular EF lenses as well as the L line. Separate markets.


It is about cost as well as size, especially for zooms. And the tradeoff is that smaller and cheaper zooms have smaller, variable max apertures and very good, but not necessarily eye-popping IQ.


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 1, 2019)

BillB said:


> It is about cost as well as size, especially for zooms. And the tradeoff is that smaller and cheaper zooms have smaller, variable max apertures and very good, but not necessarily eye-popping IQ.


Of course.


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## flip314 (Oct 1, 2019)

unfocused said:


> There was a time when Canon and Nikon both made almost all their lenses the same outside diameter in order to simplify filter interchangeability. They even marketed it as a selling point. The exceptions were telephotos that could not retain the same outside diameter. If you look at Canon EF lenses, you will see that they still try to maintain some consistency with filter sizes. My 16-35 f4, 24-105, 70-200 and 100-400 all take the same filter size.



And now 82mm is the new 77mm, so I see all new filters in your future!


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## criscokkat (Oct 1, 2019)

JohnC said:


> I actually do think that ultimately the efs and EF lenses will go away. I don’t think we are extremely close to it yet, primarily because I think Canon is smart enough to let it happen organically. They HAVE to think long term.
> 
> As it happen I suspect we will see really nice adaption between the r series and the m series regarding lenses.
> 
> I do think that at some point you will either see crop sensor R models OR, they will refine the technology to enable a crop mode that gives you all the advantages of the smaller sensor (FPS, reach, etc) in the same body with a high resolution full frame. The electronics might be complicated but the exterior and most physical parts of the body are exactly the same. Helps spread out that r&d cost and also ergonomics to remain the same.


They already do this in the M6II, giving us a preview of what might be to come. The 30fps mode crops the sensor about 20% and reduces the color space from 14 to 12 bits. But by doing that it more than doubles the fps, and still retains the tracking ability. 

I can only imagine what that might be like on the high megapixel camera or the presumed R mark ii down the road - if the high mp does 7-10 fps (which i think it will, to be in the ballpark of the a7iv) then in that mode it would presumably deliver 15-20 fps at 40+ megapixels. The future R would probably be 30 megapixels cropped (guessing it would be in the 40-45 when uncropped, going up about 22%, just like the last few times). 
Exciting times!


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

JohnC said:


> I actually do think that ultimately the efs and EF lenses will go away. I don’t think we are extremely close to it yet, primarily because I think Canon is smart enough to let it happen organically. They HAVE to think long term.
> 
> As it happen I suspect we will see really nice adaption between the r series and the m series regarding lenses.
> 
> I do think that at some point you will either see crop sensor R models OR, they will refine the technology to enable a crop mode that gives you all the advantages of the smaller sensor (FPS, reach, etc) in the same body with a high resolution full frame. The electronics might be complicated but the exterior and most physical parts of the body are exactly the same. Helps spread out that r&d cost and also ergonomics to remain the same.



I've suggested that some RF model will come out that offers a very high res sensor (maybe even 83MP) that will offer a crop mode that makes it behave as if it were a 32 MP APS-C. (You'd likely get that by putting an EF-S lens on it anyway, not that the 7D people want to use anything that's EF-S.) That would satisfy the yearnings I hear here for an APS-C R in all but one respect: It'd probably be much more expensive than an RF mount with an APSC sensor in it.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

unfocused said:


> There was a time when Canon and Nikon both made almost all their lenses the same outside diameter in order to simplify filter interchangeability. They even marketed it as a selling point. The exceptions were telephotos that could not retain the same outside diameter. If you look at Canon EF lenses, you will see that they still try to maintain some consistency with filter sizes. My 16-35 f4, 24-105, 70-200 and 100-400 all take the same filter size.



Well, it's not filter interchangeability that accounts for it, because there are at least three distinct filter diameters on the Canon EF-M lenses. (55, 49 and 43.) Which is a shame, because that WOULD be a good reason for it.

EDIT to add: A lot of my canon EF lenses are 58mm filter diameter, which I do appreciate. In fact the first three I owned fell into this category, so I was a bit surprised to discover other diameters existed. And yes, I've got a 77 and an 82mm (though those are third party).


----------



## peters (Oct 1, 2019)

Features I totaly need to see in the 1DX III or it would be a dealbreaker for me:
- better video codec
- full hdmi out (not that outdated 1080p stuff)
- quiet electronic shutter when shooting in Live view

Features that would I would love to see:
- Ibis
- 6k and higher photo resolution
- C-log
- better low light performance (its not as awesome in the Mark II as people tend to think and actualy not even noteable better than the 5D IV in my opinion. At least at weddings I saw quite a lot of noise, even at similar ISO levels).


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I've read it. I won't comment on this anymore after this: There is no self imposed "size restriction". There is a market restriction being imposed by the market. This has become a circular argument.  I get that you don't like the Canon M offerings. You are obviously not the target market.



Sigh, just when I thought we were converging on an understanding, you go back to square one.

Indeed it has become circular, because you've utterly failed to explain how the market could cause Canon to decide "all of these lenses must be the same diameter." It's a marketing restriction. Why? Because it's a marketing restriction. Yep, that's a tight circular argument, assuming what it sets out to prove.

The market certainly could explain why the lenses are in no danger of outperforming L lenses (they're aimed at a "lower" market), and why there aren't that many of them (resources must be directed towards RF which will be more profitable). 

But "they've got to all be the same OD" smacks to me of an arbitrary decision by someone. I'd hate to be one of their engineers tasked with creating a zoom lens, and having to limit the aperture (or zoom range, or both) because someone up the chain won't let him make the lens 5 or even 2 mm wider--which would still be a pretty darned small lens.

I <I>don't</I> hate the lenses, by the way (but others have complained about their limitations). I just bought a 32mm, have one on order (the 22mm pancake) and another one (11-22) is out of stock at my local brick and mortar, but I'll jump on it when available. That will be a great alternative to my much larger 10-24 EF-S lens (from Tamron).

I originally wanted to point out that the EF-M line metaphysically <I>cannot</I> exceed its present capabilities unless Canon is willing to bend on that outside diameter. And to point out that there's no engineering reason for it (as shown by Tamron's 18-200 native EF-M lens, which IS quite a bit wider). In response you've insisted that "marketing" somehow requires it...and have presented no evidence, or even a plausible hypothetical explanation as to why. "Marketing" likely requires that the lenses be lower-end (which is fine; I know they don't have red rings on them), and smaller than EF-S and EF (to say nothing of the huge RF lenses). But that they be of the exact same diameter?


----------



## SecureGSM (Oct 1, 2019)

SeanMalik said:


> Wish Canon will release a RF to EF lens converter to use with 1DX 3. This camera will be even better with RF lenses.


You are not being realistic. Unfortunately.


----------



## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

SeanMalik said:


> Wish Canon will release a RF to EF lens converter to use with 1DX 3. This camera will be even better with RF lenses.





SecureGSM said:


> You are not being realistic. Unfortunately.



There's always an outside chance that a third party will do it. Now, whether it will work _well_ is another question entirely. And if it works poorly enough, it would negate the advantages the RF glass would (otherwise) give.


----------



## SecureGSM (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> There's always an outside chance that a third party will do it. Now, whether it will work _well_ is another question entirely. And if it works poorly enough, it would negate the advantages the RF glass would (otherwise) give.


There is a design constraints where RF flange distance is shorter than EF one. Therefore RF lens would be front focusing on EF bodies if adapted even at EF native distance to sensor. An Optical element is required to address this.
second issue is that EF bodies do not understand RF protocol and RF lenses do not talk EF language. So.... as per my original post:slim chances for that to happen.


----------



## unfocused (Oct 1, 2019)

SeanMalik said:


> Wish Canon will release a RF to EF lens converter to use with 1DX 3. This camera will be even better with RF lenses.


 
While I also wish that were the case, I suspect it won't be. I have been told on this forum that it is possible, but would require that the converter have lens elements in it, like a tele-extender. I'm fine with that. However, I'm not sure about the second part of your statement. I doubt that an RF to EF mount converter would work as seamlessly as the EF to RF mount converters do and I doubt that Canon would or could add the RF mount advantages to a converter (the control ring for example). 

I do suspect that third parties are working right now to reverse engineer the RF mount and I expect we will see a third party mount sometime in the future. Once that happens, Canon may decide to offer their own converter.


----------



## slclick (Oct 1, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Sigh, just when I thought we were converging on an understanding, you go back to square one.
> 
> Indeed it has become circular, because you've utterly failed to explain how the market could cause Canon to decide "all of these lenses must be the same diameter." It's a marketing restriction. Why? Because it's a marketing restriction. Yep, that's a tight circular argument, assuming what it sets out to prove.
> 
> ...




My first thought is that they are of a small diameter to balance with the small M bodies. Simple. You are free to write lengthy diatribes to espouse other theories but it makes sense to me to keep it tidy. Every tom dick and harry has put an adapter and 70-200 L on the original M and we all know how ricockulous that is.


----------



## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> There is a design constraints where RF flange distance is shorter than EF one. Therefore RF lens would be front focusing on EF bodies if adapted even at EF native distance to sensor. An Optical element is required to address this.
> second issue is that EF bodies do not understand RF protocol and RF lenses do not talk EF language. So.... as per my original post:slim chances for that to happen.



Yeah, it'd be a kludge at best (optical elements, all sorts of stuff done inside the adapter to deal with the protocols) which is why I doubt a third party could make it work well, or if well, cheaply.


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## SteveC (Oct 1, 2019)

slclick said:


> My first thought is that they are of a small diameter to balance with the small M bodies. Simple. You are free to write lengthy diatribes to espouse other theories but it makes sense to me to keep it tidy. Every tom dick and harry has put an adapter and 70-200 L on the original M and we all know how ricockulous that is.



Sure...small! No question. (I'm not talking about an 82mm filter size.) _Identical_ diameters? Not necessary to meet the goal you mention.

EDIT TO ADD: And if (as I suspect) the goal is to move APS-C users to m-mount cameras, there will be a LOT of people putting huge-ass lenses on the M cameras, with an adapter if that's what they've got to do. (I tried the 100-400mm II L on my M50, not giving a rip if the body looked too small.)


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## Drcampbellicu (Oct 2, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> There is already a 7D replacement, the 90D. There will be no 7D Mark III.



sure thats the replacement...
And a corolla is the same as a mustang


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 2, 2019)

Drcampbellicu said:


> sure thats the replacement...
> And a corolla is the same as a mustang


I never said they were the same thing. I'm saying the chances of a 7D Mark III are about as likely as, "Finding a three legged ballerina." Don't read what isn't there.


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## dslrdummy (Oct 2, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> [
> 
> First let me address the quality of the images you get using Canon adapted glass on the Sony a9. The answer is no, there is no decline in quality that I have seen. Image quality with the Canon 100-400, 600 f/4 II, 16-35 f/4 IS and a few others has been excellent. You lose fps and focusing speed a bit when adapting Canon glass to the a9, but image quality is awesome.
> 
> ...


So given you lose fps with adapted glass, what would you say the fps achieived is?


----------



## Architect1776 (Oct 2, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Why I do not collect FD lenses at all. No extra optics needed for M42 screw mounts.



With the RF mount the FD, FL and old R lenses will work perfectly to infinity with no glass in adapter. This is why I have kept my FD lenses and still buy bargains. They also work well on the M mount. I use Nikon lenses adapted to my FD and FL cameras as no glass is needed in the adapter. So get an RF mount camera and use some incredible FD etc. lenses. I am waiting for IBIS in the RF mount as I am spoiled by the IS lenses I have in EF mount.


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## Ozarker (Oct 2, 2019)

Architect1776 said:


> With the RF mount the FD, FL and old R lenses will work perfectly to infinity with no glass in adapter. This is why I have kept my FD lenses and still buy bargains. They also work well on the M mount. I use Nikon lenses adapted to my FD and FL cameras as no glass is needed in the adapter. So get an RF mount camera and use some incredible FD etc. lenses. I am waiting for IBIS in the RF mount as I am spoiled by the IS lenses I have in EF mount.


I have an RF mount camera. Thanks for the information. I should have known that. More benefits to owning the R.


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## yeahright (Oct 2, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Sigh, just when I thought we were converging on an understanding, you go back to square one.
> 
> Indeed it has become circular, because you've utterly failed to explain how the market could cause Canon to decide "all of these lenses must be the same diameter." It's a marketing restriction. Why? Because it's a marketing restriction. Yep, that's a tight circular argument, assuming what it sets out to prove.
> 
> ...


I think from a design perspective it absolutely makes sense if all the lenses can have the same outer diameter. Buying decisions are not only based on price, image quality, etc., but also on design. And for some people, design is a MAJOR factor in their buying decision. I, for one, was very unhappy that the EF f/2.8 trinity lenses are so different from each other, and I simply hated the thought that the 24-70 is an extending zoom while the other two aren't. Not so much because I prefer one over the other (well, I actually do), but much more because they are *different*. That fact alone kept me from buying for several months during which I was thinking about whether I could live with it or whether I should wait until a more consistently designed line of lenses was available (I finally decided that that would probably never be the case, so I bought anyway). But I could really imagine that some people considering buying into the M system are put off from their buying decision if one of the available lenses is 2 mm wider on the outside, if all the others are equal in diameter.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 2, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> I think the comments about the market for the 7dII drying up or being too small might be on the money, but in a different way. I think the majority of the 7d users wanted accurate focusing at high speeds. The dual card slots and weatherproof housing was a bonus for the majority of the users, but not critical.
> 
> The new m6II has shown that the baseline experience with the new Canon sensors can hit 14fps with very good focus tracking, and with a greater focus on electronics and firmware within the camera the m6II has given us a sneak peak at what could be done with a much higher MP count full frame body when it's cropped down for speed.
> 
> ...



There are more than few sports photographers in shrinking markets with much lower revenue per photo/revenue per event shot than has been the case in the past who can not justify big white glass if they must actually turn enough of a profit with their work to make a living wage doing it. The idea that pro (that is, those who shoot it to make a living - not those who play it) sports photographers are rolling in cash is absurd. Even many of the top level pros have all but disappeared or had to diversify well beyond sports to stay afloat.

This article from 2015 quotes some of the top names in the game for a long time, and it is worse now than it was then. There are too many well heeled semi-pros willing to shoot for next to nothing (or even nothing) just to get sideline access to major sporting events these days. But those who shoot sports still need bodies that can hold up to less than ideal weather and high frame counts.

The biggest problem with scenario 2 is that a 70-200mm is very usable for a lot of things with an APS-C sensor that would require much more expensive lenses (e.g. 300mm f/2.8) with a FF R or RP. If the primary reason for shooting with an APS-C "sports" camera over a FF sports camera is budget, then the additional cost of the lenses needed to shoot FF instead of APS-C is a greater burden than the comparative cost of a FF body. With FF bodies you still need a 70-200/2.8 for the stuff you can't zoom out to get with the 300/2.8 on your other body. The 100-400s and 150-600s are too slow to shoot sports in anything but direct sunlight. Under the lights or indoors they are unusable.

Maybe it is the case that both Canon and Nikon (there will be no D500 replacement, either) realize this entire class of photographers (those who shoot high school/small college sports for enough profit to make it worthwhile as a primary source of income) has disappeared and I, along with a few others I know, are some of the last dodo birds left on the planet.

"The number 1's can afford a more expensive full frame camera that can be used as full frame when needed, but can have much higher speeds when used as a crop with the same amount of pixels on target that APS-C could do."

We've yet to ever see anything from Canon suggesting they are working on a high MP camera, DSLR or MILC, that can shoot in either FF mode at lower frame rates or APS-C mode at higher frame rates. The way CMOS sensors work, even if they do reduce the number of lines read so that the top and bottom lines are not read out, the full width of each line would still need to be read out from the sensor and the edges on either end discarded by the camera's image processor. Until Canon (or anyone else) introduces a camera that can increase the maximum frame rate when shooting in crop mode, that whole idea is just pie-in-the-sky-in-the-sweet-by-and-by wishful thinking.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 2, 2019)

stevelee said:


> I am not one of them, but there are folks for whom the 7D line is the best camera choice there is, as best as I can tell. They know who they are. If they want something newer than the Mark II, they need to decide on their priorities and decide what compromises are worth it to get something else they want. For right now, it seems to me that the best solution for most of these folks is to use the 7D II until it breaks, and then buy another one (new, used, refurb). To get other features they want and to preserve the 7D II as long as possible, maybe a second camera with those features would be a good choice for their non-bird-or-sports-or-whatever shooting.



Most sports shooters use more than one body. I usually have a 70-200/2.8 on my 7D Mark II and a 5D Mark IV with a wider lens, either a 17-40/4, 24-70/2.8, or 24-105/4. At the wider fields of view, one can get by with slower shutter speeds. With FF cameras, one can also get by at higher ISOs if blowing out highlights (such as stadium lighting) is not a concern. My 7D Mark II shutter count is starting to climb into the "well past rated shutter life" zone, and I am beginning to keep my eyes open for low mileage used 7D Mark II bodies at significantly lower than new prices.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 2, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> That's my point, I don't think they are abandoning them at all!
> 
> The m6II can already track with a level comparable to the 7dii, and can put more pixels on target. However the form factor isn't the best, and it could use more buffer. I think we will see an r-mount prosumer camera in aps-c. I do not think they will have dual cards and/or 1dx level weatherproofing.
> 
> ...



If it does not have 1D X level weatherproofing and shutter ratings well beyond the 120,000 actuation rating of the 90D, then it is not a 7D Mark II level camera. A lot of 7D Mark II users continued to choose it over the 80D (which is a better generalists camera at a lower price) _precisely_ because of its tough build.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 2, 2019)

richperson said:


> I really hope that whatever they announce, it is ready soon after in February. I know there is a lot of 7D love in here, but I had to relegate mine to the storage box for the football game I shot Friday night. The light was decent, but required me shooting at ISO 10k, which is just not really useable on a 7Dii for me. I ended up with the 1DXii on the 400mm and the R on my 200mm f/2--which is currently one of my favorite combinations. The fps on the R was really not great, but even slow fps with subject in focus and low noise beats 10fps images that are unusable.
> 
> I love my 7Dii when there is a lot of light, but in reality I only get that in less than 10% of my venues.
> 
> Looking forward to another full frame body with a decent fps in servo mode.



I must be lucky. I can shoot most of my venues, which are impoverished schools in a southern state that the rest of the country looks down their nose at, with ISO 3200, f/2.8, and get 1/800 or faster.

Then again, a 400/2.8 and 200/2 don't make sense for what I can make shooting in those venues.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 2, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Yes, those WDs are pretty nifty. I'm going a lot more expensive; I'm buying a home NAS, but I intend to back it up with Western Digital 4TB units--I bought a bunch on sale the other day for $100 apiece.



B&H had the 6TB WD Elements a couple of months ago for $110 each.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 2, 2019)

cayenne said:


> Oh goodness, PLEASE start using the RAW images.....
> 
> 
> I mean, sure, you should always try to get it right in camera, but in the 'heat of battle' quite often, you miss this or that, and I'd hate to think I"d lost a really great shot because some settings were off.....too much fo jpeg resurrection, but could easily be fixed with a RAW work flow.
> ...



It really depends on what you're shooting.

In a controlled studio environment with total control of the lighting, raw makes much less of a difference. You should be able to set your lights to get what you want with JPEG, both in terms of exposure, lighting ratios, and color. If you are a high volume shooter, such as a school photographer, then the time savings from using jpeg are immense.

In any kind of mixed lighting scenario, or in less than full spectrum light environments, raw is essential for total control of color.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 2, 2019)

SteveC said:


> But what would happen if they DID decide to throw some love in the EF-M direction? Would they finally break down and decide--"let's make a fatter lens so it doesn't have to be so slow"? Or would they stick with a restriction that has no <I>engineering</I> (or even marketing) reason that I can see?



The reason you don't see Canon's reason for the size of EF-M lenses is because you do not live in Japan and other parts of Asia, which is where the M series is selling in high numbers.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 2, 2019)

criscokkat said:


> They already do this in the M6II, giving us a preview of what might be to come. The 30fps mode crops the sensor about 20% and reduces the color space from 14 to 12 bits. But by doing that it more than doubles the fps, and still retains the tracking ability.
> 
> I can only imagine what that might be like on the high megapixel camera or the presumed R mark ii down the road - if the high mp does 7-10 fps (which i think it will, to be in the ballpark of the a7iv) then in that mode it would presumably deliver 15-20 fps at 40+ megapixels. The future R would probably be 30 megapixels cropped (guessing it would be in the 40-45 when uncropped, going up about 22%, just like the last few times).
> Exciting times!



If the crop area is APS-C sized, then it would take a 77 MP FF sensor to give 30 MP in crop mode.


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## criscokkat (Oct 2, 2019)

Honestly I don't think that is too far out of the realm of possibility. Of course, like the a7IV it'll be in the 3500-4000 dollar range, which as you said does put it in a much more expensive bracket.

I also don't know how weatherproof it will be. Canon has not released a flip out screen camera with a very high level of waterproofing. I'm not sure how feasible it is or not. But I can almost guarantee the marketers who run the numbers expect a flip out screen model to sell much better a screen built into the body.


Michael Clark said:


> If it does not have 1D X level weatherproofing and shutter ratings well beyond the 120,000 actuation rating of the 90D, then it is not a 7D Mark II level camera. A lot of 7D Mark II users continued to choose it over the 80D (which is a better generalists camera at a lower price) _precisely_ because of its tough build.



Of course we don't know how weatherproof any of the near term R mount higher speed cameras will be. Canon has not released a flip out screen camera with a very high level of waterproofing. I'm not sure how feasible it is or not. But I can almost guarantee the marketers who run the numbers expect a flip out screen model to sell much better a screen built into the body. They can make it weather resistant alike the current R and maybe improve on it some, but it'll be much harder to hit a 1dx level. I'm sure they will release an R mount 1dx level camera eventually with that sort of weatherproofing, but that of course will be priced much much higher.


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## rbielefeld (Oct 2, 2019)

dslrdummy said:


> So given you lose fps with adapted glass, what would you say the fps achieived is?


I have grossly timed fps with various Canon lenses and it is between 10 and 15 fps. Not at all slow, and I never feel like I miss anything I could have had because of the drop in fps. I mean, 20 fps with my Sony lenses is almost excessive for all be the fastest action I encounter.


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## SteveC (Oct 2, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> B&H had the 6TB WD Elements a couple of months ago for $110 each.



I didn't go with those, because they need a wall wart to function. (For those who don't mind that, it sounds like it was a good deal.)


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## SteveC (Oct 2, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> The reason you don't see Canon's reason for the size of EF-M lenses is because you do not live in Japan and other parts of Asia, which is where the M series is selling in high numbers.



Telling me the system is popular as-is (and I am glad of that, even if it's somewhere else) doesn't answer my point.


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## BillB (Oct 2, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Telling me the system is popular as-is (and I am glad of that, even if it's somewhere else) doesn't answer my point.


Well, you can adapt EF lenses to an EF-M camera, but you can't adapt EF-M lenses to an EF camera. A question is whether there is a worthwhile market for larger, faster, more expensive lenses that can only be used on M cameras, when an owner of both EF and M cameras can swap EF Lenses back and forth. Canon seems to have its doubts.


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## SteveC (Oct 2, 2019)

BillB said:


> A question is whether there is a worthwhile market for larger, faster, more expensive lenses that can only be used on M cameras, when an owner of both EF and M cameras can swap EF Lenses back and forth. Canon seems to have its doubts.



Yes, they certainly do at this time. Or maybe, they don't have doubts long term but today the market isn't ready for it.

I'm engaging in blatant speculation here, but:

I think _maybe_ things will look different when mirrorless dominates the market, say ten years down the road. At that point APS-C enthusiast level people will likely be using the M mount far more than they do now (it's mostly considered "kid stuff" today though that's changing with the M6 Mk II); at that point Canon could do a market differentiation something like--"beginner lenses" (what they have now) and "advanced lenses" (of larger diameter and length). We might start to see them putting out what is...for example...basically a 100-400 III L, upgrade to the current 100-400 I am looking forward to earning some day...but it is an advanced M mount lens. But they wouldn't do that unless they saw that most of the market for such a lens had gone M mount. THAT, of course, would never happen if it weren't for the adapter giving them a way to ease people into the M mount. IF they want enthusiast APS-C people (as opposed to newbies) eventually using the M mount, that's certainly the way to make it easy for them.

Whether they'll eventually do as I'm suggesting and make a suite of high end EF-M lenses is another question. One thing that suggests they won't, is they'd have to replace an EF lens they want to discontinue with BOTH an RF and EF-M version. We might all still be using adapters 20 years from now (and not just to use "old stuff").

Meanwhile, I'm trying to plan ahead. There's an RF camera in my future, as well as EF-M. As such I'm not in the market for any EF-S lenses (even though they will at least function on the RF mount). It's either a dinky lens for the M, or it's a full EF that I will be able to use on both cameras. (After I get an RF camera, I'll think about RF lenses...)


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## flip314 (Oct 2, 2019)

SteveC said:


> I think _maybe_ things will look different when mirrorless dominates the market, say ten years down the road. At that point APS-C enthusiast level people will likely be using the M mount far more than they do now (it's mostly considered "kid stuff" today though that's changing with the M6 Mk II); at that point Canon could do a market differentiation something like--"beginner lenses" (what they have now) and "advanced lenses" (of larger diameter and length). We might start to see them putting out what is...for example...basically a 100-400 III L, upgrade to the current 100-400 I am looking forward to earning some day...but it is an advanced M mount lens. But they wouldn't do that unless they saw that most of the market for such a lens had gone M mount. THAT, of course, would never happen if it weren't for the adapter giving them a way to ease people into the M mount. IF they want enthusiast APS-C people (as opposed to newbies) eventually using the M mount, that's certainly the way to make it easy for them.



It seems like Canon sees a future where FF mirrorless is affordable to advanced enthusiasts. The RP is already virtually the same price as the 90D (though there are obvious feature advantages to the 90D). If the RP mark II comes out in 3 years and matches the 90D's frame rate etc, it could be game over for enthusiast APS-C Canon cameras.

I'll admit it's confusing whether Canon cares about having any kind of upgrade path from the M-series, either to better M lenses (possible) or to another system (seems pretty unlikely at this point).


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## SteveC (Oct 3, 2019)

flip314 said:


> It seems like Canon sees a future where FF mirrorless is affordable to advanced enthusiasts. The RP is already virtually the same price as the 90D (though there are obvious feature advantages to the 90D). If the RP mark II comes out in 3 years and matches the 90D's frame rate etc, it could be game over for enthusiast APS-C Canon cameras.
> 
> I'll admit it's confusing whether Canon cares about having any kind of upgrade path from the M-series, either to better M lenses (possible) or to another system (seems pretty unlikely at this point).



That's an aspect I (and I think many others) hadn't considered...an actual reduction in the cost of full frame mirrorless (vs full frame DSLR). A lot of people here seem to want an R mount APSC, but if a hi-res full frame comes out and it's relatively cheap, that may be moot. With some work Canon could provided a faster crop mode though someone pointed out earlier that it still has to read the width of the sensor out (but not the height) so it won't be as fast as the M6 Mk II. But maybe it'll be fast enough to satisfy the birders.


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## transpo1 (Oct 3, 2019)

May is a long time to sustain my excitement. February is more like it. I'd be tempted by the EOS R if it were $1000 dollars, which is what it's worth to me as a first gen camera. The last time I bought a Canon first gen was the original EOS-M, which was a good camera and lasted a very long time, but which also had major deficiencies (autofocus). I'll wait for a second or third gen version of the EOS R when they can cram more efficient (and uncropped) 4K video into it and bring the beloved scroll wheel back, which is sadly missing from the latest releases.


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## unfocused (Oct 3, 2019)

transpo1 said:


> ...I'd be tempted by the EOS R if it were $1000 dollars, which is what it's worth to me...



I'd be interested in a Corvette if it were $5,000.



transpo1 said:


> ...bring the beloved scroll wheel back...



Good luck with that.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 3, 2019)

SteveC said:


> I didn't go with those, because they need a wall wart to function. (For those who don't mind that, it sounds like it was a good deal.)



I no longer use spinning disks for "portable" data storage. Flash memory has become cheap enough for my portable needs.


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## Ozarker (Oct 3, 2019)

transpo1 said:


> I'll wait for a second or third gen version of the EOS R when they can cram more efficient (and uncropped) 4K video into it and bring the beloved scroll wheel back, which is sadly missing from the latest releases.


Honestly, I can't even remember what I used the wheel for. That's the truth.


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## SteveC (Oct 3, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> I no longer use spinning disks for "portable" data storage. Flash memory has become cheap enough for my portable needs.



Basically, I intend to use these for offsite backup. I let the backup run overnight, then bring the disk to work and stick it in a desk drawer. (I don't plan to take it into the field with me, or anything like that.) True, I could do that with a wall wart unit, but I can readily plug one of these into any box anywhere and not have to hunt down the wall wart.

It's a personal preference thing; as I said if you don't mind wall warts for your personal use case, that would have been a fantastic deal.


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## Michael Clark (Oct 3, 2019)

SteveC said:


> Basically, I intend to use these for offsite backup. I let the backup run overnight, then bring the disk to work and stick it in a desk drawer. (I don't plan to take it into the field with me, or anything like that.) True, I could do that with a wall wart unit, but I can readily plug one of these into any box anywhere and not have to hunt down the wall wart.
> 
> It's a personal preference thing; as I said if you don't mind wall warts for your personal use case, that would have been a fantastic deal.



All of the WD USB drives I've bought for the last 7-10 years use interchangeable power cords. The tip size and polarity is the same. The output voltage and current are the same. I don't have to worry about the power cord when I move them from my primary site to my backup site. I just keep one at each location.


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## SteveC (Oct 3, 2019)

Michael Clark said:


> All of the WD USB drives I've bought for the last 7-10 years use interchangeable power cords. The tip size and polarity is the same. The output voltage and current are the same. I don't have to worry about the power cord when I move them from my primary site to my backup site. I just keep one at each location.



That's refreshingly fore-thoughtful of them! I don't think even God knows how many different useless and incompatible wall warts I have that I don't dare pitch because maybe I still own what they went with, though I have no idea what, at the moment.


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## JohnC (Oct 4, 2019)

SteveC said:


> That's refreshingly fore-thoughtful of them! I don't think even God knows how many different useless and incompatible wall warts I have that I don't dare pitch because maybe I still own what they went with, though I have no idea what, at the moment.



Containers full of them. Of course the manufacturer name of the item isn’t on most, so you have to match amp rating etc to find out what goes with what.


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## analoggrotto (Oct 4, 2019)

Canon has dropped a 32MP sensor capable of keeping up with Sony's APS-C. Silly DPR even comments that it outputs better RAW files than Sony or Nikon in a stark reversal. Sensor evolution was significant between the 60D, 70D, 80D, and 90D.

Canon bewildered the world by releasing heavy duty professional grade lenses right out of the gate. 

Now the R firmware update offers very competitive Autofocus. 

There's a pair of gloves lying forgotten on the floor of an R&D center.... 

Must have been quicker to build lenses to a new mount than retool the semiconductor foundrys...

I don't think Canon will disappoint us.


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## Travel_Photographer (Oct 4, 2019)

I don't think we're going to see any M-mount "higher quality" L-like lenses or physically larger lenses that are larger for the purpose of wider apertures. As others have stated, I just don't think that's the intended market for this series of cameras.

I absolutely love my M6, and I'm probably one of their two target markets:

Market 1: Photographers like me who already have full-frame or 90D / 7D size-bodies and lenses, who are looking to stay in the Canon family but want to get into the mirrorless game for the compact size and "every day usability". The small size of my M6 makes it perfect for casual travel photography, family events, etc. I love carrying it around compared to my 5D series cameras. The image quality is great *for the size of the camera and lenses*, obviously not quite up to par as you'd get with a full-frame setup, but certainly good enough for its intended purpose. If image quality is my #1 priority over all else (including portability) then I'll use my 5D and L lenses. But for everything else, the M6 serves me great. I just returned yesterday from Asheville, NC for a family vacation, some landscape / mountain photography, and it was my first-ever trip without my full-frame setup and lenses. It was awesome, and so much more convenient than carrying around a full-frame with 24-70mm F2.8, 70-200mm F4, etc. I have the M-mount 15-45mm, 22mm pancake, 32mm F1.4, and 55-200mm. There's was nothing I couldn't capture with that setup, where I said "man, I wish I had XYZ lens or aperture". At home, I might occasionally throw on my nifty-50 1.8 with the adapter for a compact portrait setup (though I like shooting portraits with the 32mm F1.4. The image quality is awesome).

Market 2: Casual photographers who have never owned an interchangeable lens camera. Even though the Rebel series is pretty small, they're still much more daunting than the look and feel of an M6 or M200. These photographers are looking for super-compact, and are shooting the same types of things I mentioned above. They have no need for capabilities above and beyond what the current lens lineup provides. They shoot for social media, YouTube and vlogs, and maybe the occasional medium-sized print.

Are there people out there that could and would use higher-quality faster M-mount glass? Of course. Is there a huge market for that on M-series bodies? I wouldn't think so. I'd venture to guess that 75%+ of the purchasers of these cameras fit loosely into one of those two categories above. 

Canon is going here for the best-possible image quality that can be achieved in the smallest package. It's a balancing act. I think they've done a great job with it, and I look forward to many years shooting my M-series alongside my full-frame equipment.

Completely unrelated, I'm waiting on a Canon G9 X Mark III. I come from the old S90 / S100 + family of jeans-pocket cameras. I've never owned a G9 series, but I'm definitely getting the next one!


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## slclick (Oct 4, 2019)

SIGMA Announces EF-M Mount Lens Series


SIGMA Announces EF-M Mount Lens Series — The-Digital-Picture.com




www.the-digital-picture.com





M Mount glass with larger circumference.


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## SteveC (Oct 4, 2019)

slclick said:


> SIGMA Announces EF-M Mount Lens Series
> 
> 
> SIGMA Announces EF-M Mount Lens Series — The-Digital-Picture.com
> ...



Leave it to others to do what Canon will not. (Sigma isn't the only one by the way.)


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## Ozarker (Oct 4, 2019)

slclick said:


> SIGMA Announces EF-M Mount Lens Series
> 
> 
> SIGMA Announces EF-M Mount Lens Series — The-Digital-Picture.com
> ...


Yup. It is nice that there are 3rd party companies to fill niches like this. Every company has limited resources.


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## Travel_Photographer (Oct 4, 2019)

The more options the better, absolutely.

That said, unless I'm mistaken, these were existing lenses that were already created and in Sigma's line-up for Sony mirrorless and Olympus / Panasonic mirrorless. I think they just added the M-mount to the existing lens line-up to tap into the Canon market. That's great, like I said, more options. Whether or not Sigma would have created these lenses *just* for Canon, that I don't know, but debatable. Either way, can't hurt for the consumer.


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## slclick (Oct 4, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> The more options the better, absolutely.
> 
> That said, unless I'm mistaken, these were existing lenses that were already created and in Sigma's line-up for Sony mirrorless and Olympus / Panasonic mirrorless. I think they just added the M-mount to the existing lens line-up to tap into the Canon market. That's great, like I said, more options. Whether or not Sigma would have created these lenses *just* for Canon, that I don't know, but debatable. Either way, can't hurt for the consumer.


Does it really matter? Anyway, they had to be tweaked for AF and other variables. I hope that will help you rest easy if you stop to consider the bit of work they put into it.


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## Travel_Photographer (Oct 4, 2019)

slclick said:


> Does it really matter? Anyway, they had to be tweaked for AF and other variables. I hope that will help you rest easy if you stop to consider the bit of work they put into it.



It matters a lot when talking about the primary focus of this particular discussion, which is whether or not Canon will design and create higher-end glass for the M-series. To the casual reader, the articles posted about the Sigma lenses imply that Sigma designed and created lenses specifically for the M-series cameras. They did not. They created three lenses for APS-C mirrorless cameras first and foremost for Sony and Micro-Four Thirds. They then tweaked the mount and electronics on those three already existing lenses so they would fit on Canon cameras. That's important. People could look and say "Well Sigma created these high-lens lenses for M-series cameras, why can't Canon!?" But that's a false narrative. Sigma did not create those lenses for M-series cameras, and I doubt they would have ever designed and manufactured them specifically for EF-M if they didn't also fit several other brands' cameras. It's like if I took a wheel off a Chevy Silverado and drilled lug nut holes in it for a Ford F-150. I did not just "design and create an F-150 wheel". I simply adapted something I already had.


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## slclick (Oct 4, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> It matters a lot when talking about the primary focus of this particular discussion, which is whether or not Canon will design and create higher-end glass for the M-series. To the casual reader, the articles posted about the Sigma lenses imply that Sigma designed and created lenses specifically for the M-series cameras. They did not. They created three lenses for APS-C mirrorless cameras first and foremost for Sony and Micro-Four Thirds. They then tweaked the mount and electronics on those three already existing lenses so they would fit on Canon cameras. That's important. People could look and say "Well Sigma created these high-lens lenses for M-series cameras, why can't Canon!?" But that's a false narrative. Sigma did not create those lenses for M-series cameras, and I doubt they would have ever designed and manufactured them specifically for EF-M if they didn't also fit several other brands' cameras. It's like if I took a wheel off a Chevy Silverado and drilled lug nut holes in it for a Ford F-150. I did not just "design and create an F-150 wheel". I simply adapted something I already had.


Some people tackle climate change, others inequality...this one might be bigger than all of us. Good luck.


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## Travel_Photographer (Oct 4, 2019)

slclick said:


> Some people tackle climate change, others inequality...this one might be bigger than all of us. Good luck.



What are you talking about? Wrong thread? We're talking about Canon lenses and the future of their product development.


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## slclick (Oct 4, 2019)

Travel_Photographer said:


> What are you talking about? Wrong thread? We're talking about Canon lenses and the future of their product development.


So serious, no wonder you couldn't wrap your head around my tongue in cheek. Good luck with your larger M series glass diameter conundrum. Boy, the whining here is at an all time high. Everybody thinks there should be consumer products with exactly their wishes and demands or the company is either ******* or they are threatening not spending their glorious money on the brand again. Hilarious. If you need your gear to be so dialed in, just how decent of a shooter are you? Anyone worth their weight in the craft can make beautiful images with a pinhole. People are really soft these days.


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## Travel_Photographer (Oct 4, 2019)

slclick said:


> So serious, no wonder you couldn't wrap your head around my tongue in cheek. Good luck with your larger M series glass diameter conundrum. Boy, the whining here is at an all time high. Everybody thinks there should be consumer products with exactly their wishes and demands or the company is either ******* or they are threatening not spending their glorious money on the brand again. Hilarious. If you need your gear to be so dialed in, just how decent of a shooter are you? Anyone worth their weight in the craft can make beautiful images with a pinhole. People are really soft these days.



Can you read? Seriously, can you read? My post was literally saying exactly what you're saying. That there is no need for higher-end M-lenses. My post said that I love the M-series with the existing lenses and that there is no need whatsoever for Canon to create higher-end lenses because I think the existing M-series lens series is absolutely perfect the way it is and needs no additions. Are you so blinded by your attempts to be both clever and snarky that you can't understand a simple post that says exactly what you're saying? I love the existing M-lenses and need nothing more. They are perfect for that camera and for the target market that uses that camera. Are you confusing me with someone else??


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## AccipiterQ (Oct 17, 2019)

rbielefeld said:


> [
> 
> First let me address the quality of the images you get using Canon adapted glass on the Sony a9. The answer is no, there is no decline in quality that I have seen. Image quality with the Canon 100-400, 600 f/4 II, 16-35 f/4 IS and a few others has been excellent. You lose fps and focusing speed a bit when adapting Canon glass to the a9, but image quality is awesome.
> 
> ...



GREAT reply, thank you very much, I do a lot of BiF as well, so this is helpful


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## bigchicken (Oct 20, 2019)

Spoken to a Canon rep the other day who strongly hinted the following (during a 15min chat):

The pro EOS-R will be available at the Photography Show in the UK in March 2020.
The pro EOS-R will be to the 1DXMKIII "what the 5DRS was to the 5D" - it will be a ultra-sharp 60mp (same as Nikon Z8) camera. It will lack some features of the 1DX MKIII which will still be the defacto Canon sports camera.
The 1DX MKIII will be released in time for the Tokyo Olympics, but after the pro EOS-R, in the same way the M50 dropped before the 250D.


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## JohnC (Oct 20, 2019)

bigchicken said:


> Spoken to a Canon rep the other day who strongly hinted the following (during a 15min chat):
> 
> The pro EOS-R will be available at the Photography Show in the UK in March 2020.
> The pro EOS-R will be to the 1DXMKIII "what the 5DRS was to the 5D" - it will be a ultra-sharp 60mp (same as Nikon Z8) camera. It will lack some features of the 1DX MKIII which will still be the defacto Canon sports camera.
> The 1DX MKIII will be released in time for the Tokyo Olympics, but after the pro EOS-R, in the same way the M50 dropped before the 250D.



Sounds interesting if that proves out.


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## Aussie shooter (Oct 20, 2019)

bigchicken said:


> Spoken to a Canon rep the other day who strongly hinted the following (during a 15min chat):
> 
> The pro EOS-R will be available at the Photography Show in the UK in March 2020.
> The pro EOS-R will be to the 1DXMKIII "what the 5DRS was to the 5D" - it will be a ultra-sharp 60mp (same as Nikon Z8) camera. It will lack some features of the 1DX MKIII which will still be the defacto Canon sports camera.
> The 1DX MKIII will be released in time for the Tokyo Olympics, but after the pro EOS-R, in the same way the M50 dropped before the 250D.



That sounds...... Unexpected. At 60mp it is going to be nigh on impossible to achieve a very high frame rate and not only that it makes the release of a seperate 'high mp' eos R somewhat superflous .


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## unfocused (Oct 20, 2019)

bigchicken said:


> Spoken to a Canon rep the other day who strongly hinted the following (during a 15min chat):
> 
> The pro EOS-R will be available at the Photography Show in the UK in March 2020.
> The pro EOS-R will be to the 1DXMKIII "what the 5DRS was to the 5D" - it will be a ultra-sharp 60mp (same as Nikon Z8) camera. It will lack some features of the 1DX MKIII which will still be the defacto Canon sports camera.
> The 1DX MKIII will be released in time for the Tokyo Olympics, but after the pro EOS-R, in the same way the M50 dropped before the 250D.


Always skeptical about how much a "Canon rep" knows. Anyway, it sounds as though your source is conflating the high resolution R with the "pro" R. The high resolution R has been long rumored and I would not be surprised to see that announced in the first quarter of 2020. 60mp sounds a bit conservative, but possible. 

If the high resolution R is released in March, that seems too late in the year for the 1DX III to be released _after_ that.

Using terms like "Pro R" just creates confusion. The EOS R is already professional level, despite what forum "experts" think. Likely we will see a high resolution R sometime in the first or second quarter of 2020. A 1Dx III around the same time. A sports oriented R sometime in 2021. A 5DIV in late 2020 or early 2021. And, an RII following that. That is consistent with what has already been written here by Canon Rumors guy. Great unknown remains if and when there might be a sports/birding oriented crop sensor R.


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## slclick (Oct 20, 2019)

So, it seems many here want a high frame rate yet also high MP? Pick one. This isn't LOTR, you don't get one camera body to rule them all.


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 20, 2019)

slclick said:


> So, it seems many here want a high frame rate yet also high MP? Pick one. This isn't LOTR, you don't get one camera body to rule them all.


Perhaps Sony = Sauron?


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## Sharlin (Oct 20, 2019)

slclick said:


> So, it seems many here want a high frame rate yet also high MP? Pick one. This isn't LOTR, you don't get one camera body to rule them all.



Clearly it's stupid Canon crippling their products in order to force us to buy more than one body!


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## BillB (Oct 20, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Clearly it's stupid Canon crippling their products in order to force us to buy more than one body!


It is sometimes hard to tell whether Canon is being greedy or stupid. It can be very confusing.


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## Ozarker (Oct 20, 2019)

bigchicken said:


> Spoken to a Canon rep the other day who strongly hinted the following (during a 15min chat):
> 
> The pro EOS-R will be available at the Photography Show in the UK in March 2020.
> The pro EOS-R will be to the 1DXMKIII "what the 5DRS was to the 5D" - it will be a ultra-sharp 60mp (same as Nikon Z8) camera. It will lack some features of the 1DX MKIII which will still be the defacto Canon sports camera.
> The 1DX MKIII will be released in time for the Tokyo Olympics, but after the pro EOS-R, in the same way the M50 dropped before the 250D.





unfocused said:


> Always skeptical about how much a "Canon rep" knows. Anyway, it sounds as though your source is conflating the high resolution R with the "pro" R. The high resolution R has been long rumored and I would not be surprised to see that announced in the first quarter of 2020. 60mp sounds a bit conservative, but possible.
> 
> If the high resolution R is released in March, that seems too late in the year for the 1DX III to be released _after_ that.
> 
> Using terms like "Pro R" just creates confusion. The EOS R is already professional level, despite what forum "experts" think. Likely we will see a high resolution R sometime in the first or second quarter of 2020. A 1Dx III around the same time. A sports oriented R sometime in 2021. A 5DIV in late 2020 or early 2021. And, an RII following that. That is consistent with what has already been written here by Canon Rumors guy. Great unknown remains if and when there might be a sports/birding oriented crop sensor R.


I spoke to a Canon Rep the other day as we chatted over coffee. He said Canon's DR sucks and that Sony is the way to go. He also said there would be a 7D Mark X for birders with 500 fps bursts in uncompressed raw that instantly transfers to your home PC via 5G. No card slots. All his friends are switching to Sony.


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## bigchicken (Oct 20, 2019)

@Aussie shooter agreed, I was taken aback at the resolution he hinted at, the impression I got was they'll protect the 1DX line by not making a very high frame rate EOS-R.

@unfocused I agree, also skeptical what a Canon rep actually _knows,_ he did describe the 1 DX MKIII and the pro/as good as the competition EOS-R coming out as a sort of duo which confused me too...because the resolutions will probably be so different. Big one for me was he also suggested the pro/hi-res/whatever it is EOS-R coming out might not have the crop factor making the current EOS-R a dud for hybrid shooters (like myself).

The Canon guy said he was personally holding off buying a Canon mirrorless until march next year. He agreed with me that the EOS-R is not holding up against Sony or Nikon's much more capable offerings right now. For what it's worth I'm waiting for a 1DX MKII price drop, and will go Canon mirrorless at some point when the price is down enough in a year or two...when Canon mirrorless is actually better than their DSLRS for my purposes. Having said that, with their rate of development right now I might switch sooner, we'll see!


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## Kit. (Oct 20, 2019)

bigchicken said:


> Spoken to a Canon rep the other day who strongly hinted the following (during a 15min chat):
> 
> The pro EOS-R will be available at the Photography Show in the UK in March 2020.
> The pro EOS-R will be to the 1DXMKIII "what the 5DRS was to the 5D" - it will be a ultra-sharp 60mp (same as Nikon Z8) camera. It will lack some features of the 1DX MKIII which will still be the defacto Canon sports camera.
> The 1DX MKIII will be released in time for the Tokyo Olympics, but after the pro EOS-R, in the same way the M50 dropped before the 250D.





bigchicken said:


> @Aussie shooter agreed, I was taken aback at the resolution he hinted at, the impression I got was they'll protect the 1DX line by not making a very high frame rate EOS-R.
> 
> @unfocused I agree, also skeptical what a Canon rep actually _knows,_ he did describe the 1 DX MKIII and the pro/as good as the competition EOS-R coming out as a sort of duo which confused me too...because the resolutions will probably be so different. Big one for me was he also suggested the pro/hi-res/whatever it is EOS-R coming out might not have the crop factor making the current EOS-R a dud for hybrid shooters (like myself).
> 
> The Canon guy said he was personally holding off buying a Canon mirrorless until march next year. He agreed with me that the EOS-R is not holding up against Sony or Nikon's much more capable offerings right now. For what it's worth I'm waiting for a 1DX MKII price drop, and will go Canon mirrorless at some point when the price is down enough in a year or two...when Canon mirrorless is actually better than their DSLRS for my purposes. Having said that, with their rate of development right now I might switch sooner, we'll see!


So, you joined the forum today to tell us that there is a Canon rep that Canon needs to fire?


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## bigchicken (Oct 20, 2019)

Kit. said:


> So, you joined the forum today to tell us that there is a Canon rep that Canon needs to fire?



Haha, I mean we had a long conversation about how much I loved Canon stuff, how I sold a lot of my Sony gear recently and that 2020 was clearly going to be a very exciting year for Canon...but you know all of that already . I'd say he convinced me that was a good choice and that a lot of good stuff is coming. As others have said, who knows how much of one rep knows, we'll see.


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## Kit. (Oct 20, 2019)

bigchicken said:


> Haha, I mean we had a long conversation about how much I loved Canon stuff, how I sold a lot of my Sony gear recently and that 2020 was clearly going to be a very exciting year for Canon...but you know all of that already . I'd say he convinced me that was a good choice and that a lot of good stuff is coming. As others have said, who knows how much of one rep knows, we'll see.


Implausible. Neither disclosing corporate secrets to strangers nor telling customers to hold off purchases are what these people are paid for.


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## slclick (Oct 21, 2019)

Was it like 20 minutes on how you loved Canon stuff and then about 15 on how you sold your Sony gear ands maybe 30 on how 2020 will be exciting? I'm trying to add up a typical long conversation with a Canon Rep. Are you hot? Was it over drinks?


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## SecureGSM (Oct 21, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Clearly it's stupid Canon crippling their products in order to force us to buy more than one body!


You are partially correct. example: Canon did not include a second memory card option with EOS R for that very reason. This and better weather protection along could serve as a major product line differentiator for a future 5D level R product.


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## unfocused (Oct 21, 2019)

SecureGSM said:


> You are partially correct. example: Canon did not include a second memory card option with EOS R for that very reason...



Do you have inside knowledge of Canon's decision-making process? Because I never saw the memo detailing the design decisions Canon made for the EOS R.


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## SecureGSM (Oct 21, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Do you have inside knowledge of Canon's decision-making process? Because I never saw the memo detailing the design decisions Canon made for the EOS R.


Some decisions are just common sense and common business practices. 
All Modern pro level Canon, Nikon and Sony bodies are dual memory card enabled. 
All modern enthusiast level Canon bodies are single carded solutions with a limited weather sealing : 6D, 6D II, .... 7D II is an exception which is seems to be now a history, sadly. 

There’s is no technical, size or cost constraints in having the second memory card in a mirrorless body. Canon solution architects understand the importance of second memory card slot and good weather protection offered on a pro level body very well. 
Once again, It is either technical decision or business business decision. 

EOS R is an Advanced enthusiast level camera. 

EOS RP is a budget FF, R system product designed to build market presence and recognition, is a lure, a bred and butter, an affordable entry point and a powerful cross-brand competition tool: you can enter the Canon FF mirrorless family at a very attractive price entry point. 
Get your RP body now and start exploring an endless world of Canon glass possibilities. You can afford this. 
And if you need a bit more features there is The R product. 
And if you need a specialise tool, then please do tell us what Pro body you are after:
High res pro body? Yup, here you go: 80MP+ camera, slow FPS. 
all rounder, rugged pro quality and build body? Around 40-ish MP, 10-ish FPS 
Or high FPS, sports action oriented body? 25-ish MP, 14+ FPS


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## xps (Oct 21, 2019)

Read on another Canon rumor site, that Eos R "Pro" will be released in March 2020. Suggested 60MP. 
I hope this rumor comes true, would like to own an equivalent to my Sony 7R IV.


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## bigchicken (Oct 21, 2019)

@Kit. As I mentioned earlier, my chat with the rep was purely about my use case as a hybrid shooter. The rep agreed with me that the Nikon Z range and Sonys are currently more capable for video/photo hybrid shooting than the EOS-R (crop factor, Nikon pro-res update coming etc. etc.). He advised my to hold off buying a 1DX MK II now (even though price is coming down) and waiting for March next year. He said he is also personally holding off until then. He probably was trying to get me to wait so I'll be tempted by the much more expensive mirrorless option next year, not sure I'll do that but undecided myself! Useful advice anyway, not sure it was that controversial.

@slclick I am extremely hot and hand out sexual favours for details of mirrorless camera product lines .


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