# New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 9, 2012)

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<strong>70D or 7D Mark II, or both?


</strong>Not a lot of talk about crop camera bodies, other than an imminent Rebel announcement with a couple of inexpensive lenses. However, over the last couple of days I’ve been sent a few things about the direction of the APS-C line of cameras. There is talk there will be an amalgamation of the 60D and 7D into one camera. Which means the xxD line would go back to being a higher end camera. No mention of whether it would be called 70D or 7D Mark II.</p>
<p>Do not expect a big megapixel jump from the current 18mp, though it was mentioned it would have a different image sensor than the T4i. The 60D and 7D may end up meeting in the middle as far as features and build quality. Especially if <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/03/mirrorless-camera-new-full-frame-coming-second-half-2012-cr2/" target="_blank">rumors of a new full frame camera in $2000</a> or less range are true.</p>
<p>I have heard in the past that there would be no direct 7D replacement, although I find that a little hard to believe. I do suspect there will be a shake-up of the APS-C lineup, as we’ve seen already with the EOS-1 and in the coming months the 5D.</p>
<p>There is no defined announcement date yet, but we’re told Canon may be announcing a new interchangeable lens camera every 6-8 weeks heading into Christmas.</p>
<p><strong>EF-S Lenses


</strong>Beyond the coming 18-135 IS II, there isn’t a lot mentioned in regards to EF-S lenses.  The only other EF-S lens that has been mentioned is an IS Macro. We’ve heard both 60mm and 85mm IS macro EF-S lenses exist.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## Marine03 (May 9, 2012)

This is perfect I will be replacing my 450D with this new 70D or maybe the entry level Full Frame. Time to save some pennies.


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## Edu (May 9, 2012)

_"as we’ve seen already with the EOS-1 and in the coming months the 5D"_

Are you expecting Canon to release a low priced level 5D camera like supposedly Nikon intends to do with the rumored D600? ;D

EDIT: OOOH you already linked new info thanks


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## emag (May 9, 2012)

MFA. 7D-like AF. Magic Lantern compatible. I'd pre-order one today. In his interview with Planet5D, Chuck Westfall stated that Canon has no interest in Magic Lantern compatibility, I guess they have their reasons, but that's why I don't own an otherwise quite capable for my needs 7D.


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## PhotoCharlie (May 9, 2012)

Just give me a 7D with Full Frame sensor and crop mode setting. I'd love to have the current 7D, but am torn with my desire for the extra image quality of a full frame sensor.

40D owner with L and regular lenses


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## ctmike (May 9, 2012)

Personally, I'll be purchasing before my honeymoon at the end of November... so I'm very curious what I'll be choosing from then.


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## MRW (May 9, 2012)

I thought the 7D replacement was the 5D mk3?


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## Dalepa (May 9, 2012)

Since Canon took the time to deliver the 60Da, I was hoping for a 7Dn n for nature. 

As a bird photographer, the 7d is almost perfect. Almost every bird shot is 50% or greater cropped, and the 7D with 18MP density and fast focusing system is key...

The ONLY issue I have with the 7d is the buffer when shooting raw. I often run use the 16 frames in 2 seconds and miss shots waiting... 

So the 7D is near perfect for me, so I hope they don't screw anything up with the next model.


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## unfocused (May 9, 2012)

After the last year, nothing Canon may do will surprise me. 

Still, I'm having a hard time buying the idea that Canon will merge the 60D and 7D. They fit two very different niche markets and I can't see them conceding either to Nikon and others. Especially since the "prosumer" market is one of the most lucrative. 

The real problem for the 60D is that it is too closely sized and spec'd to the Rebels, not to the 7D. Lots of room to move the 7D up in price with better sensor, better autofocus, better weathersealing and possibly even an integrated grip.

I have no interest in a full-frame body. Like I've said before, I'd rather have a top end mid-size car than a stripped-down full-sized version. If I'm honest with myself, I don't really _need_ anything that the 7D doesn't already give me. I could be lured by better sensor, autofocus and weathersealing, but if Canon doesn't deliver this time around, I'll just buy a second 7D body from the refurbished store and wait them out. After all, if they are serious about new bodies every 6-8 weeks, I'm sure they'll come around soon enough.


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## shtfmeister (May 9, 2012)

Dalepa said:


> The ONLY issue I have with the 7d is the buffer when shooting raw. I often run use the 16 frames in 2 seconds and miss shots waiting...



have u tried a faster CF card?
I dont think Ive ever missed a shot from waiting on the buffer, other causes yes (other causes being my foul-ups)


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## Marine03 (May 9, 2012)

unfocused said:


> After the last year, nothing Canon may do will surprise me.
> 
> 
> I have no interest in a full-frame body. Like I've said before, I'd rather have a top end mid-size car than a stripped-down full-sized version. If I'm honest with myself



You make a great point and that's the direction that I'll probably go in as well, I'd rather have all the bells and whistles in a crop sensor than in a camera thats just like my 450D but with a better sensor. 

If you merged today's 60D and 7D this is roughly the specs you would get if you met in the middle of the two which I could see happening if they bring an entry full frame in at 1800 or so. 

98% View finder
20MP
7FPS
New AF hopefully like 27pt
Composite body with weather proofing
No LCD on top 
ISO 100-12800 expandable to 18000 sweet spot hopefully up through 6000
Dual Digic 5


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## stilscream (May 9, 2012)

Dalepa said:


> Since Canon took the time to deliver the 60Da, I was hoping for a 7Dn n for nature.
> 
> As a bird photographer, the 7d is almost perfect. Almost every bird shot is 50% or greater cropped, and the 7D with 18MP density and fast focusing system is key...
> 
> ...



really? Your timing is so bad you need more than 2 full seconds of a moment?? Maybe you should just stick to video recording and picking frames out of it. 720 @60fps should give you 1 you like, no?


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## unfocused (May 9, 2012)

stilscream said:


> Dalepa said:
> 
> 
> > Since Canon took the time to deliver the 60Da, I was hoping for a 7Dn n for nature.
> ...



That's quite rude. How do you know what Dalepa is shooting and what his/her needs might be? 

Just one more reason to mourn the end of Karma.


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## aznable (May 9, 2012)

a touch screen addition, same autofocus and plastic body of 60d... actual price of 7d with a nice 20% for the marketing research of the new name...subpar sensor but hdr in camera just like a compact camera from casio (respect to casio)


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## Stone (May 9, 2012)

The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market. There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.

To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:


100% viewfinder
Dual Digic V
The same 18MP sensor with improved DR
Clean ISO 12,800
10 fps with a decently sized buffer
61 pt AF from the 5DIII
The usual video improvements
I'd even consider a builtin portrait grip like the 1 series bodies
It would be a dream camera for those who can't afford the 1 series or need the extra reach of APS-C. Charge $2-$2.5K and you have a winner.


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## D_Rochat (May 9, 2012)

Stone said:


> The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market. There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.
> 
> To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:
> 
> ...



Those are pretty attractive specs, but your$2-$2.5k idea is nothing more than a pipe dream. Do you really think they'd sell a body for $2k with those specs, especially after how they priced the 5D mark III? 

*edit* You forgot f/8 to further canibalize 1D X sales


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## photophreek (May 9, 2012)

> I thought the 7D replacement was the 5D mk3?



I've heard this notion before and I don't understnad where this is coming from. The 5D III is a FF and the 7d is not. Both cameras are directed at two different buyers and at two completly different price points. Canon sells 2.5 Rebels for every one 5D III and many APS-C buyers can't justify the +$3500 price tag for the 5D III. The 5D III is not IMHO a 7d replacement.


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## Stone (May 9, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market. There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.
> ...



An APS-C 7D isn't any kind of threat to the 1DX which has the absolute best of everything. People that need a 1 series camera, need a 1 series camera and an attractively spec'ed crop body isn't going to change that. On the other hand, the 1DX will never be on the radar for alot of shooters, Canon shouldn't say: "buy the most expensive thing we've got or do without." because Nikon will be more than happy to fill that void. Right or wrong, I just don't subscribe to the cannibalization of sales theory.

Even with the specs l listed for the 7DII, the 1DX would still be:

FF
better weather sealed
shoot faster
have the best af
have a much longer shutter life
better high ISO
and just flat out better IQ.


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## Brymills (May 9, 2012)

Stone said:


> The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market. There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.
> 
> To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:
> 
> ...



I think you've just described 99% of the 1D X ???


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## photophreek (May 9, 2012)

Stone - all your wishlist 7d features are nice except I'd be really happy with just better ISO performance and Digic V. BTW, the 7d already has a 100% VF.


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## Stone (May 9, 2012)

photophreek said:


> Stone - all your wishlist 7d features are nice except I'd be really happy with just better ISO performance and Digic V. BTW, the 7d already has a 100% VF.



good catch.

You'd think I should know that since I've owned a 7D since last year, now that I think about it, it's only 100% coverage when attached to a 50mm lens and varies between 98%-99% at other focal lengths but I could be wrong....


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## Dan A (May 9, 2012)

I have an EOS 450D and for one am waiting for the next update to the 7D before I spend my cash, hopefully it will be this year.


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## traveller (May 9, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market. There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.
> ...



I don't think that any specifications on the 7D MkII would endanger either the 1D X or 5D MkIII; if you're range limited you will want APS-C, for maximum subject isolation and ISO sensitivity you will want full frame. [N.B. I'm not so sure this would have been the case if Canon had produced an APS-H 1D Mk5 (and FF 1Ds Mk5) instead of the 1D X] 

Actually, I think that Stone's specifications at roughly that price point are exactly what Canon would do if they were to produce a successor to the 7D. 
By moving the 7D MkII up market, they'd free space to move the rest of the APS-C range up as well, which might help with the competition from 'mirrorless' and Sony's aggressively specified (and priced) SLTs. 

The other possibility is that Canon and Nikon are planning to amalgamate their two higher APS-C lines into one (like the old Canon XXD bodies -and perhaps hinted at by the lack of a D400 so far). This would enable them to fill the $2000-$2500 price point with an 'entry level' full frame body instead.


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## Danielle (May 9, 2012)

If a 7d mkii appears still with weather sealing, with better iso capability and 10 frames per sec, I'm in.

However if the weather sealing gets retracted, I wouldn't buy one... I'd kill it!


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## wickidwombat (May 10, 2012)

I can see this being a 7Dx

18MP APS-C
ISO clsoer to the performance of the 5Dmk3 but not quite as good
8 fps
dual card slots
body/ sealing / button latyout similar to 5Dmk3
61pt AF system same as 5Dmk3 with same metering
no flippy screen

it'll be a weapon and cost $2500+

I think the new rebel will get the old 19pt AF from the 7D
I think canon have learned their lesson about putting in crappy AF systems into otherwise good cameras


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## unfocused (May 10, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market. There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.
> ...



Stone's price point is not unrealistic. Instead of comparing these specs to what is in the 5DIII and the 1DX, which are completely different formats, a more apt comparison is between these specs and what is already in the 7D. 

Competitive pressures are greater on the 7D because it has to appeal to a broader, more competitive and more price sensitive market than either the 5D or the 1Dx. Plus R&D costs on APS-C sensors are spread out over a much more massive customer base than the costs of full frame sensor development. These and other factors work to hold the price down. 

Actual details may vary, but Stone's specs are simple and fairly modest evolutionary steps in a model that sold for $1,700 at introduction. Clean ISO to 12,800 may be a bit optimistic, but I guess it depends on whose definition of "clean" you use. I expect to see 1D IV sensor performance in the next 7D and think most people would be happy with an APS-C sensor that performs as well as the previous generation of APS-H. Similarly, autofocus improvements don't have to match the 1Dx, but since the 7D already has strong autofocus, a few improvements to make it more intuitive with modest performance improvements shouldn't be out of the question.

I know a lot of 5D owners are still suffering from sticker shock, but the feature gap between the 5DII and 5DIII is quite massive. The gap between the 7D and 7DII need not be as great, because the 7D was great to begin with and there isn't that much that needs improving.


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## drummstikk (May 10, 2012)

stilscream said:


> really? Your timing is so bad you need more than 2 full seconds of a moment?? Maybe you should just stick to video recording and picking frames out of it. 720 @60fps should give you 1 you like, no?



Congratulations. I thought nothing could make me miss the "Smite" button, but you actually did it.

To *constructively* address Dalepa's problem: As suggested before, the fastest possible memory card may help, but my suggestion is more old fashioned - practice. For every "game day" of bird photography, or sports, or whatever you do, try to have at least a couple of practice days. Do your pro or AAA baseball game on Sunday, but also do some little league on Wednesday and Saturday. Go to the national park for birds or wildlife on the weekend, but also shoot sparrows and squirrels in your backyard a couple of days during the week.

What I'm getting at here is that your buffer jam up a lot less if you shoot single frames and short bursts instead of standing on it. 50% of my work is sports and I use a 7D a lot for that, but filling the buffer is extremely rare for me. Happens to me maybe three or four times a year, and it's usually the post-championship celebration that does it and not the game action.

Most photographers let 8-12 fps motor drives and AF do a lot of work for them. Technology is wonderful, and there's really not much wrong with that. But practicing the skills old farts like me had to learn back in the 80's when there was no AF at all and a "fast" motor drive was 3 fps will kick things up a notch for anybody. Developing your sense of timing and your sense of when movement is *about* to occur will help keep your buffer open and also leave you with a much less daunting editing job after the fact. 

Manual focusing skills are especially underrated today. I see a lot of "good enough" autofocused images in the stuff I see from student photographers at the university where I am a contract/event photographer. AF simply doesn't work in certain situations. If I AF'ed all my volleyball, I'd get hundreds of images with the net in perfect focus and the players all slightly fuzzed. Don't get me wrong, I use AF a lot. But sometimes you have to take over yourself to be sure you get the pass receiver's face in focus instead of the strong safety's back.


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## RC (May 10, 2012)

Danielle said:


> If a 7d mkii appears still with weather sealing, with better iso capability and 10 frames per sec, I'm in.
> 
> However if the weather sealing gets retracted, I wouldn't buy one... I'd kill it!



Dido and drop the pop up flash to trim the cost a bit.


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## D_Rochat (May 10, 2012)

Stone said:


> An APS-C 7D isn't any kind of threat to the 1DX which has the absolute best of everything. People that need a 1 series camera, need a 1 series camera and an attractively spec'ed crop body isn't going to change that.



I disagree. First, you described a 1 series body with the exception of the APS-C and a 7D badge. Some sports photogs may be a little more inclined to lean towards your dream camera because of the extra reach. Some of the better off amateurs who would otherwise buy a 1D X, might go to this fictional 7D because they wouldn't have to spend as much on long lenses. Super tele primes are a little pricey. Others aren't upgrading their 1DIV's because of f/8 and the crop. 

All you guys who are saying that Canon could release a body with these specs forget what just happened with the 5D. This forum almost ripped itself apart when we found out what the new 5D offered and how much they wanted for it. Nothing wrong with dreaming, just don't get your hopes up. 

And thanks to stilscream for encouraging people to dig up the karma system issue again.....


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## Terry Rogers (May 10, 2012)

Maybe they left out f8 autofocus from the 1dx because they are going to add it to the 7d2. Many birders shoot 7d for the AF and crop factor. They are going for all the reach they can. Add 9 f8 AF points to a 7d2 with a 20mp crop sensor and you could have the ultimate long range wildlife camera. 500mm f4 + 2x teleconverter + 1.6 crop = 1600mm + lots of pixels to crop from and you get a rediculous long range wildlife camera.

They could bump the 7d line into a pro level crop camera for those who want the reach, and bump the XXD line closer to where the 7d1 is now.


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## stevenrrmanir (May 10, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market. There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.
> ...



simple: if Canon is too cheap and will not deliver a good body for a good price, there is always the alternative: Nikon - they are listening to the consumer's needs and are releasing really good bodies at lower prices than Canon...


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## D_Rochat (May 10, 2012)

and here we go again......


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## Woody (May 10, 2012)

dilbert said:


> At 6 weeks:
> May/June - xxxD
> Mid-July - Mirrorless
> Late-August - xxD
> Early-October - Entry level FF



There are talks of a high pixel count FF camera announced some time this year. So, if we slot that into early December, it'll fit the rumored 6 to 8 weeks announcement of interchangeable lens camera quite nicely.

I feel that one of xxxD and xxD is redundant. xxxD should be fully replaced with mirrorless camera. xxD should just be a one stop solution before converting all DSLRs into FF and confining APS-C to mirrorless cameras. Just MHO.


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## daniemare (May 10, 2012)

Here is my wish with a conceptual link to current model names.

APSC
Mirrorless > xxxxD (as a 600D rebrand with Digic V update) > 650D with new sensor and 9/11 point AF all cross point (essentially replacing 60D) > 7D II meeting all Pro requirments (same sensor as 650D)

FF
70D (entroduce as entry level FF: plastic body, elementry AF, maybe current 7D's, 18mp 1DX sensor, 4/5FPS) > 5D > 1D

Thus the single didgets remain pro
The xxD regain purpose and status
Mirrorless becomes entry level

I can see myself getting the FF entryblevel, especially if they add EF-S compatibility. $2,000 while I can continue using that lenses will be managable money wise. I just cannot justify a mark III and I will be honest a mark II is to old for comfort.


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## unfocused (May 10, 2012)

> All you guys who are saying that Canon could release a body with these specs forget what just happened with the 5D. This forum almost ripped itself apart when we found out what the new 5D offered and how much they wanted for it. Nothing wrong with dreaming, just don't get your hopes up.



Key difference #1: 5DIII is targeted at a very specific professional audience (wedding and event photographers). Most of the complaining on the forum is from people who don't fit that niche and thought they were going to get a mass market camera at a bargain price. 7D is marketed to a much broader and more diverse audience. Canon focuses on its markets and makes cameras that will sell to their target audience; 

Key difference #2: Price competition is much more important at the 7D level. More competition, less brand loyalty, less investment in the system;

Key difference #3: 5DII was very dated in some areas (autofocus). Professionals who rely on a 5D could not afford to skip a generation and wait for the 5DIV. 7D is much less dated (still the best APS-C camera made three years into its life). Only minor upgrades are needed. It will be much easier for 7D owners to skip a generation if the next model isn't to their liking.

Key difference #4 (an offshoot of above): The DSLR market has matured and will not grow anywhere near the pace it has grown in the past decade. Manufacturers must shift from concentrating on adding new customers to enticing existing customers to upgrade. Given the high customer satisfaction with the current 7D they have a challenge ahead of themselves to come up with something that will cause current owners to upgrade. 

Key difference #5 (also related to 3&4): Upgraders fall into two main categories. The potential 60D user who wants something a bit more robust than the Rebel line but is unlikely to ever buy an "L" lens. These are customers satisfied with a good quality camera that they can use for stills and video and maybe a couple of lenses. Category two are the folks who have decided to get into photography in a big way and have a reasonable amount of disposable income to do so (the classic "enthusiast" or "prosumer.") These are folks who shoot at a high skill level, are prepared to invest in equipment but have no interest or desire to spend $3,000 on a camera. Second category also includes those who practice photography as an offshoot of another hobby (birders, for example). 

Key difference #6: The demise of APS-H gives Canon an opportunity to greatly expand the 7D pool at little cost and with small changes. (Comparable sensor quality, modest improvements in build and autofocus). I'm still thinking we could see a 7Dx offered as an option with an integrated grip and other professional features.

In short, Canon is under much more pressure to deliver a 7D II at reasonable cost and their path is much more clear given that the camera doesn't need to be anywhere near as great of an upgrade as the 5DIII was to the 5DII.

And, I promise this. If they don't deliver, I won't be threatening to leave Canon or complaining about how they don't know what they are doing, or how the 7DII is just crap compared to the Nikon. Instead, I'll just keep on using my 7D, maybe buy a second body, and wait for the next generation.


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## Danielle (May 10, 2012)

unfocused said:


> > If they don't deliver, I won't be threatening to leave Canon or complaining about how they don't know what they are doing, or how the 7DII is just crap compared to the Nikon. Instead, I'll just keep on using my 7D, maybe buy a second body, and wait for the next generation.
> 
> 
> 
> +1 to a major degree. I'll be disappointed though. I would like to add a potential 7D mkii and have 2 bodies. Other option is to buy a 1d mkiv which I see as the step up currently, or just another 7D. But after already switching to canon, It would be a push for me to go back. I just kinda like the 7D, it works for me extremely well... very extremely well.


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## D_Rochat (May 10, 2012)

I'd love to see an affordable 7D with the mentioned specs, I'm just skeptical. Here's hoping I'm wrong....


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## Gcon (May 10, 2012)

7D is a great body but just has a horrible sensor. If they improve the sensor to remove more noise, it'd be a great little bit of kit.


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## Woody (May 10, 2012)

Gcon said:


> 7D is a great body but just has a horrible sensor. If they improve the sensor to remove more noise, it'd be a great little bit of kit.



Horrible sensor??? Compare that to the one in D300s (its main competitor) and you'll find the 7D sensor actually emerges as the better performer. In its time, the 7D sensor is often described as class-leading.

Of course, the Sony 16 MP APS-C sensor has since then taken over the crown. Even the new Sony 24 MP APS-C sensor is a dud when compared to its older 16 MP sibling. 

I believe Canon can easily match the high ISO performance of Sony's 16 MP APS-C sensor. It's their low ISO dynamic range that's of greater concern. I have little faith in Canon's ability to produce sensors with better low ISO dynamic range, judging by the poor performance of the 5D3 sensor in this department.


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## Marine03 (May 10, 2012)

I have to disagree with many on this forum everyone seems to think that everything is going up market that prices have to rise with new features. I couldn't disagree more. The 7D being pro-sumer right now and being the next camera I want to buy I could never imagine spending more than 1900 with that being list price. Even after reading on here that it will have a new generation of sensor some keep saying the 650D will have the same one. This from my understanding will not be true and it makes a lot of sense. For example

Release Order
650D with old 18mp sensor but other upgrades like old 7D AF
Mirorless
7D2 with New sensor dual digic 5 and better AF lets it then stand out above the rest of the lineup and allows a year or longer before the new fancy sensor gets passed down to the rebels. 
Big Mega Pixel FF 

Back to my original soap box, I don't know what everyone here does for a living but if you move the 7D2 up in price 2000+ then its no longer a consumer camera.


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## AprilForever (May 10, 2012)

If Canon neuters the 7D, I SHALL INDEED BE ANGRY!!!

If Canon bloats the sensor to FF, I SHALL INDEED BE ANGRY!!!

Read this, O Canon! For I shall not tolerate the messing with the 7D!!!


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## KeithR (May 10, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Just one more reason to mourn the end of Karma.



Naaah - saying it specifically is much better than vaguely smiting someone.


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## KeithR (May 10, 2012)

Woody said:


> Of course, the Sony 16 MP APS-C sensor has since then taken over the crown.



Actually, there's _nothing_ that sensor will do that can't be matched or bettered by the 7D's sensor, at _any_ ISO. 

When I see people calling the 7D sensor "horrible", I just shrug - "_it's a bad workman..._" and all that.


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## KeithR (May 10, 2012)

stevenrrmanir said:


> simple: if Canon is too cheap and will not deliver a good body for a good price, there is always the alternative: Nikon - they are listening to the consumer's needs and are releasing really good bodies at lower prices than Canon...



_And yet, Canon continues to sell more cameras._

What a tool you are. We get it - _you're_ in an infantile hissy-fit over something Canon did to you: but your opinion is just that - _your_ opinion. And a whiny, ill-formed, petulant one, at that.

You're not "everyone". More to the point, you're not _anyone_, so if you think _your_ opinion matters a damn, you're even denser than your Drama Queen tantrums would currently suggest.

So sod off to Nikon and see where that gets you.


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## AprilForever (May 10, 2012)

unfocused said:


> > All you guys who are saying that Canon could release a body with these specs forget what just happened with the 5D. This forum almost ripped itself apart when we found out what the new 5D offered and how much they wanted for it. Nothing wrong with dreaming, just don't get your hopes up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As far as price, I wouldn't mind dropping 2500 for a 7D MK II, as long as it were indeed better in a few areas. If the 7D mk II gets murdered into something which is not a 7D, I will wait another 3 sad years until they get it right. Likewise, I am not about to run off to Nikon: 1. My 300 2.8. 2. Nikon doesn't have anything comparable to the 7D. The d300 is way behind.... And the d400 may not be anything like I want. 

Years ago, I got a 7D because I wanted it over the d300. I am glad I did! But, if they mess the 7D mk II up, my rage will have no limits. However, I will not rage quit on canon just because I didn't get what I wanted. I will rather wwait until they get it right...


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## Stone (May 10, 2012)

Regarding the current 7D sensor, after living with the camera for the last 8-9 months, there's definitely room for sensor improvements and this is a case where I don't think upping the MP count would be a good thing, regardless of what the competition does. Anyone that uses this camera knows that while the overall IQ is excellent, it can get a little noisy even at lower ISO if you don't nail your exposure or don't shoot to the right. The camera can be downright evil if you underexpose your shots.

The 7DII is a scenario where a 5DIIIesque sensor upgrade would be in order. Give us a stop or 2 more high ISO, and tame the low ISO noise and this camera can easily go on at 18MP for 3 more years.

I've given up hope for an APS-H 7DII although I think it would be the greatest thing since sliced bread and would give Canon an advantage that NO ONE could match, unfortunately, I don't think they could sell it for less than 3K. I've been shooting with a 1DIV for the last week and it's just too good of a sensor for Canon to sunset.


Ken


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## dswatson83 (May 10, 2012)

I do wish Canon would work a little more with the sensor before releasing this camera. The 5d3 is a freaking awesome camera but it is pretty obvious that there is not much detail that can be pulled from shadows. It is worse on my 7D. The 7D is my favorite all around camera and hardly needs improvement. A 2nd card slot, maybe a couple more cross type focus points with a larger spread (though the 7D still has great focusing), and sensor improvements. Seriously, the current oldish 7D STILL has a class leading 18mp sensor with 8fps shooting (FAST!), great focusing, great video, weather sealing, and awesome features. But Nikon is winning the sensor battle in the shadows.


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## AprilForever (May 10, 2012)

dswatson83 said:


> I do wish Canon would work a little more with the sensor before releasing this camera. The 5d3 is a freaking awesome camera but it is pretty obvious that there is not much detail that can be pulled from shadows. It is worse on my 7D. The 7D is my favorite all around camera and hardly needs improvement. A 2nd card slot, maybe a couple more cross type focus points with a larger spread (though the 7D still has great focusing), and sensor improvements. Seriously, the current oldish 7D STILL has a class leading 18mp sensor with 8fps shooting (FAST!), great focusing, great video, weather sealing, and awesome features. But Nikon is winning the sensor battle in the shadows.



Sooo... expose to the right and cut noisy shadows to black! ;D

But, no matter what, it is a serious camera... and a two stop improvvement would be great! But not at the cost of aps-h...


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## V8Beast (May 11, 2012)

IMHO, Canon would be insane to drop the 7D line. The only question is whether it will be marketed as a 70D, 7D Mark 2, 7Dx....you get the idea. I'm very curious how many 7Ds Canon sells compared to Rebels and xxDs. I'm sure it's not as much, but I sure see a $hit ton of 7Ds out in the wild. Given how many more 7D2/70D/7Dx bodies Canon stands to sell compared to 5D3s, I find it interesting that it hasn't generated nearly as much hype. 

I'm still hoping for a APS-H 7D2, if not, used 1D4 here I come


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## wickidwombat (May 11, 2012)

KeithR said:


> stevenrrmanir said:
> 
> 
> > simple: if Canon is too cheap and will not deliver a good body for a good price, there is always the alternative: Nikon - they are listening to the consumer's needs and are releasing really good bodies at lower prices than Canon...
> ...


I really LOL'ed at this response 
you really shouldn't sugar coat your responses so much Keith


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## wickidwombat (May 11, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> I'm still hoping for a APS-H 7D2, if not, used 1D4 here I come



Ditto, small form factor APS-H would be sweet and the perfect complement to the 5Dmk3

problem is 1D4 prices dont seem to be coming down any 

Although I can see an APS-H 7D upsetting alot of people though


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## D_Rochat (May 11, 2012)

I imagine used 1D mark IV's will come down in price a little once the 1D X hits the streets. I'm sure there are a lot of people hanging on to the mkIV's and waiting. I'm personally waiting until summer to see if they drop in price and will consider both a 1DmkIV and 5DmkII if the prices are close to that of a 5DmkIII by then. An APS-H 7D would be pretty nice and Canon will not make everyone happy no matter what they do.


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## Ranga (May 11, 2012)

stevenrrmanir said:


> D_Rochat said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...



Lots of people might do that. Photographers in interested in pictures not brand loyalty. I started with Nikon I might get the rumoured D600 when it's out and use a cropped Canon body to use with my Canon lenses.


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## D_Rochat (May 11, 2012)

Ranga said:


> Lots of people might do that. Photographers in interested in pictures not brand loyalty. I started with Nikon I might get the rumoured D600 when it's out and use a cropped Canon body to use with my Canon lenses.



Sure some may leave for the D800 and upcoming D600, but some are jumping the Nikon ship because they like what Canon offers. It goes both ways. Neither company is going to make everyone happy and it's just the nature of the beast. No one here cares about brand loyalty and I'm sure everyone will agree that you should go with what works for you. It's the people who do nothing but complain on the forum about how Canon didn't cater to them and how Nikon suits their needs better. But do they switch? No. They just continue to complain. We all have reasons for staying with or leaving Canon. None of them are wrong.


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## recon photography (May 11, 2012)

KeithR said:


> stevenrrmanir said:
> 
> 
> > simple: if Canon is too cheap and will not deliver a good body for a good price, there is always the alternative: Nikon - they are listening to the consumer's needs and are releasing really good bodies at lower prices than Canon...
> ...



lol u mad brah? im a canon fanboy but im almost ready to say this guy is right canons seems to be dropping the ball especially in the Crop market (550-600 and where is 650/70 meanwhile d3200......... it probably beats them both, and for cheaper price), too bad every lens canon makes is better than every lens nikon makes


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## Ranga (May 11, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Ranga said:
> 
> 
> > Lots of people might do that. Photographers in interested in pictures not brand loyalty. I started with Nikon I might get the rumoured D600 when it's out and use a cropped Canon body to use with my Canon lenses.
> ...



I actually used to shoot with Nikon D60 and a D90 now with a Canon. Had too longzoom Fujis too. I don't mind which brand it is as long as it helps me do my job. As you say it's stupid to complain or threaten on a rumor site.


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## ruuneos (May 11, 2012)

KeithR said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, the Sony 16 MP APS-C sensor has since then taken over the crown.
> ...


+1, Totally agree with you, 7D's sensor is hard to beat even now. After 3 years later when 7D was launched, still it's unbeatable.


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## Chuck Alaimo (May 11, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > An APS-C 7D isn't any kind of threat to the 1DX which has the absolute best of everything. People that need a 1 series camera, need a 1 series camera and an attractively spec'ed crop body isn't going to change that.
> ...



Actually, in terms of specs what most are saying here so far is really reasonable. Spec some of it down a tad, a little less fps (down to maybe 8, and frankly if its a choice I'd take cleaner ISO at the 3200-6400 range over increased fps or increased native ISO). For my uses at least, I find the max fps of the current 7d to be alomost too much. I rarely set it on the highest speed because for me at least, it does not effect keeper rate, it just gives me more to go through. But then again, I'm not shooting sports. 

Key factors that will separate the the 1 D line from both the 5d and 7d line is dual digic 5.

The current 7D had a launch price of $1700, so with similar stats to whats mentioned, $2-2500 is a reasonable starting point, which would give them room to launch a 70d at the $1300-1500 price point. 

Direction they take it, who knows? I'm guessing it will be a case of trade offs. Kind of the like the 7D currently is, just good enough to get most things done, but lacking in just a few spots that make you want to upgrade. And for many 7D users, the 5D series is the next step, unless your a wildlife only shooter who needs the range...


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## stabmasterasron (May 11, 2012)

I'll be watching what Canon does with the upcoming 70D. But I am also watching what Nikon does. I will be doing a serious upgrade in the fall. I currently have a very low investment in photography equipment and just rent what I need when I have an event. What is keeping me from entering the market right now - I know lots of new products are coming out over the next 6 to 8 months. So I could go out and buy a 7D right now, but then it will likely bested by a new 7D, or maybe even a 70D in a few months. Or what if Nikon brings the D600 to market and it is a good value proposition (I don't really need the weather sealing of the 7D, and I don't drop or even bump my equipment very often). So for now I am in a holding pattern waiting to see how things shake out. I don't depend on photography to feed my family, so I can afford to wait.


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## pdirestajr (May 11, 2012)

I find it crazy that so many people are eager to CONSTANTLY upgrade their camera bodies. I see countless posts where people state: " I started with a T2i, then went to a 60D, then to a 7D, and now I NEED a 7D mkII (or a 70D)".

I don't know, but I'd rather sink my money into glass as opposed to constantly purchasing new camera models for modest "upgrades". What's the rush?


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