# Canon 7Dmk2 any rumors??



## nicku (Feb 29, 2012)

In the last month or so everybody is speaking only about the 5D3/X.... there are any viable rumors about the 7D replacement? lets face it 7D is a 3 years old camera ( its time to be upgraded). From what i can see from the latest 5D photos, the camera is called 5D3 (not X) , logical that means is not a combination between 5D and 7D series. 

I'm 99% sure that canon will not discontinue the 7D series build quality and features regardless that is called 7D mk2 or 70D.


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## takoman46 (Feb 29, 2012)

The only rumor I recall reading about the 7D is that it may be discontinued from the line up. But that was a CR1 so probably just a rumor at best. The 7D is due for an update though. I'm looking forward to seeing what a 7DmkII might be capable of if it is not discontinued though.


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## Maui5150 (Feb 29, 2012)

Yeah... It is discontinued.

Seriously... if the 5D MKIII has improved AF, weather sealing and FPS, the only difference for a 7D upgrade becomes crop sensor, and at that point... why bother.

My guess is the 70D becomes the legacy to the 7D


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## nicku (Feb 29, 2012)

Maui5150 said:


> Yeah... It is discontinued.
> 
> Seriously... if the 5D MKIII has improved AF, weather sealing and FPS, the only difference for a 7D upgrade becomes crop sensor, and at that point... why bother.
> 
> My guess is the 70D becomes the legacy to the 7D



Exactly for that 1.6 crop sensor (extra reach) and the price . They will aim the new 7D ( or whatever will be called) to those photographers who can not afford a 1Dx.


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## foobar (Feb 29, 2012)

The 7D is a big seller, probably Canon's best-selling "pro" DSLR. I don't see why there wouldn't be a Mark II version.



> lets face it 7D is a 3 years old camera ( its time to be upgraded).


It may be one of the oldest cameras in Canon's lineup but it's certainly not "an old camera" technically:
- It has Canon's current APS-C sensor
- It has all the checklist features of newer DSLRs (high-res screen, video mode, etc.)
- It has features most newer Canon DSLRs either don't have or just recently got (LCD viewfinder, AF modes)
- It doesn't have any big weak spot (like the 5D2's AF for example)

My guess is that Canon won't release a 7D Mark II before Nikon releases the D400. They just have no pressure to do so.


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## tt (Feb 29, 2012)

foobar said:


> The 7D is a big seller, probably Canon's best-selling "pro" DSLR. I don't see why there wouldn't be a Mark II version.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only pressure I can think of is that the 650D puts them between a rock and a hard place - either they gimp the 650D so it doesn't get close/surpass other model lines that are a lot older (eg sensor or DIGIC chip wise). 

I don't think they'd hold back on the DIGIC 5 as it's already on announced possibly released Canon Point & Shoots. 
As for the sensor - we simply don't know. We dont' know how the shake up of the 1 series line with the 1DX and the 5DIII/5DX with the 5D and possibly 7D lines will filter down.


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## ramon123 (Feb 29, 2012)

It's the 5D Mark III's time now ;D

No time for 7D Mark II


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## foobar (Feb 29, 2012)

tt said:


> Only pressure I can think of is that the 650D puts them between a rock and a hard place - either they gimp the 650D so it doesn't get close/surpass other model lines that are a lot older (eg sensor or DIGIC chip wise).
> 
> I don't think they'd hold back on the DIGIC 5 as it's already on announced possibly released Canon Point & Shoots.
> As for the sensor - we simply don't know. We dont' know how the shake up of the 1 series line with the 1DX and the 5DIII/5DX with the 5D and possibly 7D lines will filter down.


Canon has released new sensors and DIGIC chips in lower-end cameras before, so I don't think they have to hold back anything from the 650D. There are still enough other things to differentiate the 650D from the higher camera lines, IMHO.


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## Maui5150 (Feb 29, 2012)

nicku said:


> Maui5150 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah... It is discontinued.
> ...



And price it where? 

7D vs 5D MK II had at least SOME differentiation between the bodies other than Crop vs FF.

7D had a little better sealing, faster FPS, better AF and seemed more geared towards the sports shooter
5D MK II had the FF sensor, a little better IQ, a little better ISO and handling of noise, and larger MP and seemed geared towards the portrait studio shooter. 

5D MK III whether people like it or not seems to have merged the two lines, especially if the MP stays in the low 20s.

For the 5D MK II users, you get better AF, faster FPS and better sealing, and otherwise same MP, maybe a little better ISO and sealing... i.e. a 5D MK II with some of the best features from the 7D.

For the 7D shooter, you get a larger size sensor, better ISO, Better AF, Better sealing, and better IQ. Only downside is loosing some of the reach, but all and all it is the 7D with the IQ of the 5D MK II and FF and more MP.

60D and 7D started getting fairly close and I just have a hard time seeing Canon trying to continue with T4i, 70D, 7D MK II, 5DMK III and 1Dx when the t4i, 70D and 7D MK II will likely be very close features, perhaps too close to keep 3 bodies in the space


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## crasher7 (Feb 29, 2012)

Some folks can't wrap their mind around an idea such as that many do not want FF. It is not always a logical upgrade path. Birders? Sports, REACH???

For many, the 7D is all they want and need. I can't see the supposed 70D having a Magnesium body. Therefore I pine for a Mk2. Weather sealing will be a make or break point for a 70D as it's one of 3 specs it needs to meet if they decide to bridge the gap from 60D to 7D. I think it's a given the card slot, AF and D-5 processor will be there. But I just can't help but think it will be plastic.


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## nesarajah (Feb 29, 2012)

crasher7 said:


> Some folks can't wrap their mind around an idea such as that many do not want FF. It is not always a logical upgrade path. Birders? Sports, REACH???



8fps is a godsend when needed.


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## ruuneos (Feb 29, 2012)

Yeah.. I got 7D by myself and only thing what I could want for it are:
- Dual CF slot
- Upgrade for DIG!C 5
And of course battery grip what includes joystick.

But being honest with you, I don't really see that much to upgrade 7D *YET* let's wait 1-2years and let's check upgrade again.


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## funkboy (Feb 29, 2012)

The best conjecture I've seen points to Photokina for the 7DII. I think it will also depend on what Canon thinks Nikon's timing for the D400 is.


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## pdirestajr (Feb 29, 2012)

The 7D is a great camera. I don't really see much of a need for an upgrade. I'd rather take that $1,500.00+ and invest it in glass!


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## nesarajah (Feb 29, 2012)

ruuneos said:


> Yeah.. I got 7D by myself and only thing what I could want for it are:
> - Dual CF slot
> - Upgrade for DIG!C 5
> And of course battery grip what includes joystick.
> ...



Oh i hope next year . 2013 would be perfect.


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## x-vision (Feb 29, 2012)

Maui5150 said:


> Yeah... It is discontinued.
> 
> Seriously... if the 5D MKIII has improved AF, weather sealing and FPS, the only difference for a 7D upgrade becomes crop sensor, and at that point... why bother.



Exactly. 

Only problem is the 5DIII's crazy rumored price. 
At $3500, the 5DIII can hardly be a merger of the 7D and 5D lines. 

But if the 5dIII price turns out to be closer to the 5DII intro price ($2699), then it's quite certain that the 7D line will be discontinued.


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## kubelik (Feb 29, 2012)

well, the 5D Mark II is still the oldest current camera, until the announcement becomes a real thing and not a rumor. if the 5D Mark III gets announced in March, it will have been 3.5 years from announcement to announcement. the 1Ds Mark III went 4.5 years before the 1D X was announced to replace it.

so I think the traditional 3-year turnover that people have come to expect has gone out the window as the overall field matures, we are seeing smaller and smaller overall changes in the DSLR arena with most improvements happening in terms of refinements instead of revolutions. there's not a whole lot to change on the 7D right now (I know two people who have each bought a 7D in the last few months and who are very pleased with them), which means there's not a lot of impetus to release a successor. I'd expect 2013 to be a good time for canon to come out with a 7D Mark II, so that it spaces out a bit from the 5D series... there is definitely still a place for an APS-C flagship, which the XXD series clearly no longer fills.


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## skitron (Feb 29, 2012)

I suspect there will be a sucessor to the 7D.

Once 5D3 hits, their price tiers jump from a $1500 7D to a $3500 5D3 and thats a big hole. The 70D will likely cost $1400 based on the current crop of price increases and a 7D2 about $2400 to fill the hole.

I'm guessing T4i will come in right under $1000 for body only.


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## crasher7 (Feb 29, 2012)

The 7D and 5Dmk? are two different birds. Thinking that a price point of one will kill off the other is ricockulous. I can't see one affecting the other. The 60D and it's future's path is another story.


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## Circles (Mar 1, 2012)

ramon123 said:


> It's the 5D Mark III's time now ;D
> 
> No time for 7D Mark II



Very true!!!


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## nicku (Mar 1, 2012)

I believe that we will see a successor of the current 7D at not earlier than Photokina in September or in the early 2013.


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## foobar (Mar 1, 2012)

nicku said:


> I believe that we will see a successor of the current 7D at not earlier than Photokina in September or in the early 2013.



+1




Circles said:


> ramon123 said:
> 
> 
> > It's the 5D Mark III's time now ;D
> ...



Then why are you still reading this thread?


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## TheGoondocks (Mar 1, 2012)

The only way they could discontinue the 7D is if they had a capable replacement. If the 5D is going to be $3500 (and why would it not be, given the previous one was roughly that much when released ). I shoot a 7D, and I do not see myself shelling out $3500 for a 5D anytime soon, nor do I want to have the glorified Rebel known as the 60D. 

The promising thing is that the 5D MK3 is rumored to only do 6fps. This leaves a niche for the 7d MK2 (or whatever it would be called ). It could retain the MP, 19point AF and Frame rate (or a modest bump in frame rate ), but perhaps pick up dual card slots and an upgraded sensor (perhaps the old APS-H sensor with Digic V processor)

Canon is not going to leave the 60D to battle against the D7000 ( Which is clearly a better camera ). 

In fact, I think the 60D will be discontinued and the T4i will take its place.


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## rewards (Mar 1, 2012)

nicku said:


> I believe that we will see a successor of the current 7D at not earlier than Photokina in September or in the early 2013.



+1


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## unfocused (Mar 1, 2012)

You heard it here first:

*7D II*
18-21 Mp APS-C Sensor (Possibly back-lit)
Improved Dynamic Range
ISO Native to 12800 (Very clean to 6400. Image quality will be equal to or better than the APS-H 1D IV))
10 Frames Per Second
45 AF points, 19 Cross Type
Weather and Dust resistant sealing
Introductory Price $1,899 U.S.

*7Dx*
Same basic features as above plus
14 Frames Per Second
One-piece integrated grip and body with weather and dust sealing to the same standards as 1Dx. 
Integrated LAN port
Introductory Price $2,600 U.S.

Most likely announcement date will be 1-2 weeks prior to Photokina.

This provides sufficient improvements to encourage current 7D owners to upgrade. It does not cannibalize the 5DIII (a problem with the current 7D) and allows Canon to justify the significant price differential between the 5DIII and the 7DII. 

With the introduction of the 7DX, Canon fills the slot left by the demise of the 1D IV, giving professional sports and wildlife shooters basically the same camera in terms of performance and image quality in a more versatile 1.6 crop factor.

The specs are approximate and may change slightly, but based on Canon's recent actions, this seems to be the path Canon is heading down.


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## iaind (Mar 1, 2012)

unfocused said:


> You heard it here first:
> 
> *7D II*
> 18-21 Mp APS-C Sensor (Possibly back-lit)
> ...



Your 7DX specs closely resemble those of 1DIV.


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## rewards (Mar 1, 2012)

I think they will start to surface around this time, if any.


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## unfocused (Mar 2, 2012)

iaind said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > You heard it here first:
> ...



Of course they do. That's the direction Canon is heading. 

Now that Canon has dumped the obsolete, expensive and unnecessary APS-H sensor, Canon has freed up resources to concentrate on the two most popular formats. It's perfectly reasonable to expect that the next generation of APS-C sensors will equal or better the performance of the previous generation of APS-H. Maybe even a little conservative.

Canon has said they are keeping their options open about addressing the needs of sports and wildlife photographers who want longer reach and an improved APS-C sensor in a pro-level body makes perfect sense. I am being conservative by suggesting that the autofocus will be closer to the ID IV instead of the 1D X. I could be wrong about that, but I do expect we will see improved autofocus in the next generation.

If you doubt this, well...I would just point to a thread from last June, when I suggested that Canon would withdraw from the megapixel war and concentrate on image quality in future models. People thought I was crazy, but it turns out I was right (I admit, even I'm a little shocked that I called it as closely as I did).

Really though, this isn't that hard to predict. Too many people get caught up in what they want companies to do, instead of looking at what they are doing. An objective examination of Canon's recent actions points pretty clearly in this direction.


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## BRNexus6 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

New APS-C 18 MP sensor

Digic 5+ processor

All-I/IPB compression formats

Reduced Moire and rolling shutter

Flip out LCD

Headphone Jack 

Manual Audio and on screen meters

Clean video at ISO 1600

Same great build quality as the 7D

$1999 or lower price point


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## meli (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

catch up with exmor sensor low Iso DR, wireless trigger, and not jacking it up to some insane price as is the pattern lately


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## dolina (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

Specs better than the Sony or Nikon equivalent.
Same pixel count
1080p/720p at 120fps
Improvements from the 5D3 and 1D X
ISO as clean as the 5D3 & 1D4


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## CTJohn (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

How about a lock for the mode dial? I'm always inadvertently changes modes when I change lenses, etc.


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## BRNexus6 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



dolina said:


> ISO as clean as the 5D3 & 1D4



5D Mark lll not possible, but comparable to the 1D Mark lV is more realistic. The 1D Mark lV is only about 1 step better in ISO performance than the 7D, so I don't see why Canon couldn't improve the ISO performance by 1 stop on the 7D Mark ll with current sensor and processing improvements.


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## Michael_pfh (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



CTJohn said:


> How about a lock for the mode dial? I'm always inadvertently changes modes when I change lenses, etc.



I would even propose to substitute the mode dial by a quick selection button (as in 1D4).


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## BRNexus6 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



CTJohn said:


> How about a lock for the mode dial? I'm always inadvertently changes modes when I change lenses, etc.



Agreed. I've had that happen to me too many times with my T2i.


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## Michael_pfh (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

Since this is a wishlist - built in battery grip would be great!


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## D.Sim (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

considering the lock for the dial has been coming for most of the new bodies, I'm pretty sure if it does come out it'll be there...


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## niccyboy (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



BRNexus6 said:


> dolina said:
> 
> 
> > ISO as clean as the 5D3 & 1D4
> ...



The noise was my major gripe with 7D.


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## BRNexus6 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



niccyboy said:


> BRNexus6 said:
> 
> 
> > dolina said:
> ...



I'm expecting clean images at 1600 and useable images up to 3200.


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## swiss (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

- Build-In GPS and Compass
- Wireless 600EX Flash Control
- Radio Frequency Trigger 
- 7 Pictures AEB


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## Michael_pfh (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

the 45-point AF system of the 1D4


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## D_Rochat (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



dolina said:


> Specs better than the Sony or Nikon equivalent.
> Same pixel count
> 1080p/720p at 120fps
> Improvements from the 5D3 and 1D X
> ISO as clean as the 5D3 & 1D4



If the skies parted and the Canon Gods blessed you with such a camera, do you thing you'd pay less than $3000? And if they won't even put 1080p @ 60fps in the 5D, they sure as hell won't put 120fps in a 7D.


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## DzPhotography (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



CTJohn said:


> How about a lock for the mode dial? I'm always inadvertently changes modes when I change lenses, etc.


same here, not putting one in should be considered a crime


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## Marsu42 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



BRNexus6 said:


> Same great build quality as the 7D


Personally, I wish there won't be a 7d2 at all, but they'll scrap it and move the 70D up again for a price of 1200€ at most. They should put in the lcd sceen of the 60D, just one processor for power efficiency and magic lantern compatibility, and an updated sensor with a 2-stop improvement and be done with it. This is not likely to happen, though :-o


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## KeithR (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



BRNexus6 said:


> I'm expecting clean images at 1600 and useable images up to 3200.



Completely - _easily_ - doable with the 7D right now.


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## nicku (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



Michael_pfh said:


> Since this is a wishlist - built in battery grip would be great!



I said that at least 6 months ago.....

My wish list is: 
- better ISO performance ( 1 stop will be great)
- slightly improved AF and DR
- same resolution 
- two body types: *1 normal body (like today 7D) , and one with integrated battery grip* ( like 1D series)

if Canon will do that i believe that they will have even more success wit the crop frame sensor camera.


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## DzPhotography (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



KeithR said:


> BRNexus6 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm expecting clean images at 1600 and useable images up to 3200.
> ...


second that


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## Marsu42 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



KeithR said:


> BRNexus6 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm expecting clean images at 1600 and useable images up to 3200.
> ...


Since my 60D has the same sensor as the 7D I'd like to comment that this might be doable, but certainly not "easily". For some sharpness to remain after denoising at 1600, the exposure has to be absolutely correct and no darker parts have to be raised in postprocessing. At 3200, it's either noise, nr-blur or artificial sharpness on nr-blur and the print or view size certainly cannot be 100%.


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## lol (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

What would make my most used camera even better?

19MP - take the 5D trick of adding 1 just to make it explicitly different. I'd expect the usual generational improvements.
Full RGB metering system tied into AF system, add lots more points please. The existing points aren't fine enough for some tracking. Imagine everything being like the existing "small spot" size. Use colour info tracking would be a nice plus as I'd love to be able to tell it to ignore green targets!
Physically - change nothing. Actually, improved water sealing would help as I have had the rear joystick go funny in the rain before, and I have heard of others reporting this happening to them. I wouldn't say no to a tiltly screen but not if it compromises the rest of the build.


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## ruuneos (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

- DIGIC 5+ ( Single or Dual)
- 8 - 12 FPS Burst w/ silent mode like in 5D3
- Dual CF slot
- New APS-C 18 MP sensor
- W/O Build-in flash
- Headphone Jack
- Audio control's while filming
- Same body layout as now w/ battery grip + joystick (Build-in grip or not)
- And upgraded AF system (61pt system)

Those kind a things I would really like see in 7D2, hopefully even some of those comes to happen. :
EDIT:
Yeah almost forgot: Upgraded ISO noise reduce.


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## BRNexus6 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



KeithR said:


> BRNexus6 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm expecting clean images at 1600 and useable images up to 3200.
> ...



Video is not clean at ISO 1600. 3200 looks awful.


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## Renato (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

I use it for wildlife photography (birds) and here is my wish list:
Usable ISO of 12600 (2 stops better), a lot of birds in primary forest require high iso.
A speaker jack would be sweet; I record the bird call (using Rode Videomic) and then playback to call the bird. If I could connect it to external speaker to boost the audio would make it a supper usable tool. Some bird guides use a separate equipment for recording and playback that cost a bunch. Having this recording and playback capability in the camera is very-very useful. Most birders that have a camera use a 7D with 100-400 mm.
Increased zoom in playback mode for pictures is also very usable. I use this camera to help me confirm bird ID so when I zoom-in, I would like to get a bit closer in some situations.
In camera edit (shadows and highlight adjustment) is also very desirable. In many cases it is required to raise the shadows and lower the highlights to get better confirmation of bird ID. Many times I am better able to ID the bird when I edit the photo with Photoshop, so it would be nice if I could adjust the images in the field for a better, quicker and positive ID.
Of course better definition would be supper welcome, again this would help in the bird ID process.
Keep 1.6x, it helps a lot to get 1.6x on the telephoto without having to carry a lot of weight of big lenses.
Better weather sealing.
Lower weight
Improved AF.
Increase the camera-presets (c1,c2 and c3) storage from three to four or five and keep the wheel selection. I pre-program the optimum photographic settings in theses presets and the wheel makes this selection almost instantaneous. For example my bird in flight (BIF) settings include AI Servo, Multiple Point AF, +3 Exposure compensation, 1/2000 sec speed and of course Auto ISO, and speed priority. When I see a BIF I instantly shift my camera to optimum settings (c3) and shoot the bird without any delays. It works great!! Please dont change it to some thumbwheel setting that I would have to look. The current wheel can be set to any of the three settings without any delay, and I always know where c3 is because the wheel does not turn any further. When required I can confirm the position of the wheel by turning it to c3 and then counting back to c1 or c2 without even looking at my camera and very quickly.
The switch from video-to-still is too stiff, when it gets slippery (from my hands oil) it is difficult to switch, so make the little handle bigger for more torque with less force.
Video auto focus would be very nice. I find myself focusing in still mode and then switching to video mode for crisp video. When I use LiveView mode many times I do not focus properly and do not realize until I am home watching the video. Too late, scrap that video and that is really bad because video is very important for me. The LCD cannot be used for proper video focusing due to reflecting light and size, maybe if the zoom button worked in video for focusing purposes would be great ie. 5x and 10x zoom for stills works great.

That is it. Otherwise I love my camera and hope that someday the 7D II will have all this great stuff that will make every birder buy this as a must-have tool for improving bird ID accuracy.

Here is a blog I wrote explaining some of the benefits of photography in birding:

http://10000birds.com/photography-and-birding.htm


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## MikeHunt (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

Make the 7D Mk II with a FF sensor @ 18MP + Dual Digic 5 (not '5+') = 10fps and DR/NR/ISO improved due to FF

That way preserve the consistency of the Canon model numbers i.e. xD = Pro, xxD = Advanced, xxxD = Enthusiast and xxxxD = Beginner


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## simonhowes (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

7D II, isn't that the 5D III? :-X

How I see it at the moment, the new 5D is the new 7D, but has the AF sensor of the 1Dx because they need a FF sensor as it has a FF prism. 

If there were to be a new 7D, it would have to compete with the D700. Perhaps drop the 1Dx sensor in to the body. A FF 7D would mean the lines are no longer blurred between the 60D and 650D. 70D can still be a APS-C, can have the same sensor as the 750D but with better AF/AE etc (perhaps that of the 7D II).


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## Michael7 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

Wow, that would be incredibly annoying to have some guy playing back pre-recorded bird song while I'm trying to enjoy the woods. Seems quite unethical IMHO.

As far as new 7D features:

1. drop the 18 mp. It's too much for a 1.6x. Go back to 15 or 14 mp for cleaner images. The 7d images are smeary.

2. Weaker AA filter. This also contributes to the smeary look of 7d images at 100%. The new filter needs to be weaker, or none at all.

3. dual CF and SD slots.

4. micro focus adjustment at tele and wide end of zooms.

That's it for me. Keep everything else. What the 7D needs is much better IQ at the pixel level, and less noise. Sell it for $1499 and I'm there.


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## DianeK (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



Michael7 said:


> Wow, that would be incredibly annoying to have some guy playing back pre-recorded bird song while I'm trying to enjoy the woods. Seems quite unethical IMHO.
> 
> As far as new 7D features:
> 
> ...



This is a very reasonable wish list and I'm with you 100%! I currently have a 60D and I wish I had bought the 7D instead. I have been tempted to move up to the 7D for the better AF, metering and AFMA, but given it has the same sensor as my 60D, until they improve the noise and IQ of the 7D or 60D, I'm hanging onto my current camera. Since I mainly shoot birds and wildlife, I am not tempted by the new 5D MarkIII (too expensive) just want to move up to a better IQ/noise 7D crop.
Diane


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## smirkypants (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

By the way. Put me down for +1 stop of ISO performance, better dynamic range and dual CF cards. Other than that you can't expect a lot more without massively increasing the price point.


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## D_Rochat (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



MikeHunt said:


> Make the 7D Mk II with a FF sensor @ 18MP + Dual Digic 5 (not '5+') = 10fps and DR/NR/ISO improved due to FF
> 
> That way preserve the consistency of the Canon model numbers i.e. xD = Pro, xxD = Advanced, xxxD = Enthusiast and xxxxD = Beginner



So you basically want a 1D X for under $2000? That'll happen :


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## Marsu42 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



D_Rochat said:


> So you basically want a 1D X for under $2000? That'll happen :


Actually, this will happen - but you'll have to wait another 10 years and 5 eos generations


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## RC (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



CTJohn said:


> How about a lock for the mode dial? I'm always inadvertently changes modes when I change lenses, etc.





D.Sim said:


> considering the lock for the dial has been coming for most of the new bodies, I'm pretty sure if it does come out it'll be there...





BRNexus6 said:


> CTJohn said:
> 
> 
> > How about a lock for the mode dial? I'm always inadvertently changes modes when I change lenses, etc.
> ...



BTW, you can send in your body (7D, 5DII, not sure about T2i) and have them put on a new locking mode dial for $100. And it definitely looks like new bodies will all have the locking dial.

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_7d?pageKeyCode=prdAdvDetail&docId=0901e02480245968


----------



## RC (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

*I think this is being reasonable:*
- New sensor with improved low and high ISO (clean ISO 1600)!!
- Dual Digic 5
- Same build, maybe a little better weather seal
- Improved DR
- Maybe a few more AF points (all cross)
- Same screen (resolution & aspect ratio) as 5D3
- No flip-out screen
- Multiple micro adjust settings per lens (does 5D3 have this?)
- Price inside 2K US dollars


*Would be nice but don't see it happening:*
- Radio controlled flash
- User replaceable focusing screens


Not sure if I'll upgrade my 7D to a 7DII, most likely I'll add a FF body.


----------



## shtfmeister (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



RC said:


> *I think this is being reasonable:*
> - New sensor with improved low and high ISO (clean ISO 1600)!!
> - Dual Digic 5
> - Same build, maybe a little better weather seal
> ...



this but...
dual digic 5+
and remove the flash and replace it with GPS sensor, I mean this camera is geared at action and wildlife (not that it is not capable of doing other things) 
also usb 3.0 or eithernet port


----------



## eos650 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

When I got my 60D, I hated the locking dial. It seemed like an added inconvenience, having to press the button while turning the dial. I couldn't imagine how someone would accidentally bump and turn the dial, then I got a 5D Mark II. On several occasions, I have bumped the dial on the 5D and had it turn. In fact, I can't believe how many times this has happened.

My USB port went out on the 5D about a month ago and I'm needing to send it in for service. I'm thinking that I will have a locking dial installed at the same time.

Thanks RC for the link.

Other thoughts: Since Canon has recognized that this is an issue, I would think they would have started including it on newer 7D's and 5D Mark II's, but obviously not. That's too bad as I am seriously considering the addition of a 7D and would love to have it included.

What I would like to see most on the 7D Mark II, 7X, 70D, or whatever would be an announcement with pricing and availability.


----------



## nesarajah (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

i don't think the 7D is replaceable at the time being. its the cornerstone piece of canon marketing . the 1dx and 5dmk3 seem to fill in the space that the 7D created. I think the 7D is that camera that was meant for the high end enthusiast but not not pros. explains the price . anything below the 7D is for amateurs , anything above is for pros.


----------



## RC (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



shtfmeister said:


> RC said:
> 
> 
> > *I think this is being reasonable:*
> ...



Hmm, the more I think about it I agree with you. Giving up the pop up flash makes the camera more rugged and sturdy and replacing it with GPS would be a great trade off. Just got back from HI taking some remote location shots with my little S100 and I really liked pulling up a map to see the exact point where I shot--very, very cool.

Good point on the USB 3.0, if anything could benefit from 3.0, its transferring all those large RAW images.


----------



## D_Rochat (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



RC said:


> shtfmeister said:
> 
> 
> > RC said:
> ...



Someone in another thread explained why we probably won't see built in GPS and it made sense. It had something to do with being in areas that don't allow you to carry GPS which would leave you S.O.L. if it was built in. If you were to get GPS in a body anyways, you can bet your a** that you'd pay for it. Lately we've seen how the CR masses react to paying for features....


----------



## unfocused (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

Fairly consistent with others. 

18-21 mp aps-c sensor. (I'll be happy if it stays at 18, but I don't want to go backward.)

I'm expecting sensor performance very similar to the 1D IV but in a APS-C sensor. (5D II would be better, but trying to be conservative) Similar noise, similar ISO performance, similar dynamic range. That's reasonable given that it will have been almost three years since the 1D IV was released by the time Photokina rolls around.

I would like to see autofocus similar to the 1D IV as well, but would be content with something between the 7D and the 1D IV.

I'd rather they leave the swivel screen to the 70D, but if it can be made without compromising the body, I can live with it. (I never use live view anyway). I wouldn't be bothered if they also give the 70D a higher density sensor (24 mp, for example). They've set a precedent with the 5D III having higher resolution than the 1D X, so it's very possible they could up the density of the 70D sensor and leave it alone or increase by a single megapixel for the 7D.

I don't really care about most of the bells and whistles, although one feature I would love Canon to incorporate is the "sweep" panorama feature that Fuji has put into the X10. 

I do hope they fix the two major design flaws with the popup flash: it overheats very rapidly and then shuts down, making the infrared trigger useless when trying to shoot several shots in rapid succession. They also need to fix the flimsy contacts on the popup, which are easily bent by an auxiliary strobe or trigger, causing the popup to lock down. (both are known issues that really need fixing).

I do think we could very well see a 7D X that has the same basic guts as the 7D II, but in a gripped, one-piece highly weatherproof body – a reasonable replacement for the 1D IV but with a 1.6 crop. 

I could see the 7DII selling for $1,800 or so and the 7D X going for $2,600 or even a little higher depending on how rugged they make it.


----------



## nicku (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



nesarajah said:


> i don't think the 7D is replaceable at the time being. its the cornerstone piece of canon marketing . the 1dx and 5dmk3 seem to fill in the space that the 7D created. I think the 7D is that camera that was meant for the high end enthusiast but not not pros. explains the price . anything below the 7D is for amateurs , anything above is for pros.



First of all Canon is running a business and 7D was, is and will be one of the best selling body ( like 5D2 or even better).
The key feature of the 7D series is his crop frame sensor ( EXTRA REACH) in a pro lvl body.

Today Canon don't have any more an APS-H sensor. In my opinion there are two possibilities:

1. push a little more up in class the 7D2, and fit it with a APS-H sensor; and extra features for the 70D to compensate today 7D

2. Keep the APS-C sensor in 7D2 , improve the noise and the others features.


----------



## D_Rochat (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



nicku said:


> nesarajah said:
> 
> 
> > i don't think the 7D is replaceable at the time being. its the cornerstone piece of canon marketing . the 1dx and 5dmk3 seem to fill in the space that the 7D created. I think the 7D is that camera that was meant for the high end enthusiast but not not pros. explains the price . anything below the 7D is for amateurs , anything above is for pros.
> ...



I keep hearing this and would like to know where this is coming from. I've looked and I consistently find sales in this order. Rebel, 60D, 5D II and then 7D.


----------



## candyman (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

My wishlist:

- 22 Megapixels
- APS-C CMOS sensor with improved low and high ISO (clean ISO 3200)!!
- Dual Digic 5+
- 45-point TTL CMOS sensor (39 cross-type for F2.8 or faster lenses)
- 10 fps and carbon shutter (200.000 actuations)
- Four levels of High ISO NR
- 1.0x magnification and 100% coverage viewfinder
- 3.2-type, approx.1.04m dot (3:2 wide) Clear View LCD II
- iFCL metering with 63-zone dual-layer sensor
- Same build, slightly improved weather sealing 
- Dual Card (SD and CF)
- USB 3

No flip-out screen!

(the 70D with 19 AF-points and Canon 1D Mark IV off the market)


----------



## nicku (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



candyman said:


> My wishlist:
> 
> - 22 Megapixels
> - APS-C CMOS sensor with improved low and high ISO (clean ISO 3200)!!
> ...



Those specs rise the price around $3000 at least.... I'm sure canon wants to kep the price at $2000 or under.


----------



## candyman (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

You are right. It is moving the 7D in the position of the 1D MK IV
But, if they move the 70D up as well, the new price of the 7D MKII might be justified


----------



## nicku (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



candyman said:


> You are right. It is moving the 7D in the position of the 1D MK IV
> But, if they move the 70D up as well, the new price of the 7D MKII might be justified



to move the 7D2 in the 1D4 place ( a crop sensor nature and sports pro camera for those who don't afford a 1DX) they need to come out with a much more improved sensor. 

I am sore the 7D line will move more and more towards sports and wildlife .


----------



## candyman (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



nicku said:


> candyman said:
> 
> 
> > You are right. It is moving the 7D in the position of the 1D MK IV
> ...




Well, if they release the 7D MK II with those specs in 2013 (3 years after the Canon 1D MK IV) and a price lower than the Canon 1D MK IV with slight improvement (like digic 5+ and 22 MP), they might get away with it.


Also I believe the 7D MK II will be THE wildlife camera 
and affordable sports camera (this with less IQ as 1DX) 


EDIT: about f/8 AF 
they should include the f/8 AF in 1D X and exclude the f/8 AF in the 7D MKII. To me that makes more sense.


----------



## AprilForever (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

7D MK II Wishlist:

24 MP APS-C

61 pt AF (running down from the 1Dx)

Command dial lock

2x Digic 5+

2 stops improved ISO

9FPS

Improved Weather Sealing


----------



## blufox (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

7D Mk II Wishlist:
15MP APS-C/18MP APS-C. 
Great DR
2 to 2.5 Stop improved ISO from current 7D sensor on RAW files.
30 point AF, all cross type similar to current 7D AF points.
2x Digic5
8fps 
Improved Weather Sealing
1600$ price


----------



## Marine03 (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

since the 1D IV is EF lenses only, can the APS-H even work with EF-S lenses for everyone who currently has them on their 7D?


----------



## rj79in (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

Isn't it great that Canon doesn't charge people for dreaming / drawing up a wishlist? ;D ;D


----------



## iaind (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



AprilForever said:


> 7D MK II Wishlist:
> 
> 24 MP APS-C
> 
> ...




Expect to pay £2500-3000 given Canon's new pricing policy


----------



## Marsu42 (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



Marine03 said:


> since the 1D IV is EF lenses only, can the APS-H even work with EF-S lenses for everyone who currently has them on their 7D?


Nope - the ef-s lenses are designed for the small aps-c mirror, that's why aps-h is phased out as "the worst of both worlds": no good but inexpensive ultrawide ef-s lenses and no full usage of ef lenses at the same time. The one plus point "slight increase of tele range" doesn't compensate these problems.


----------



## unfocused (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

I think people are being too pessimistic about the pricing of a future 7D. 

In reading most of these wish lists (and taking into account that they are wish lists), it seems to me that most of the suggestions are reasonable or at least not impractical.

People seem to be consistently asking for: 


No change, or only minimal change in megapixels;
Some improvement in autofocus;
Some improvement in dynamic range, noise, ISO;
The same or slightly improved build quality.

Yes, many folks are stealing specs from the 1D IV and the 5D III, but I think that's just because it's what we have to go on. And, we all have our pet features we'd like to see incorporated, but none of those are deal-breakers. 

I can't see that any of the above would drive the cost of the next model up significantly. If someone has some explanation, other than disappointment over the price of the 5D III, I'd like to hear it. 

Yes, a bombproof 7D X fully-gripped body with special features designed for working pros (LAN connectivity, super high frame rate, etc. for example), would drive the cost of that model up, 

But, for the ordinary 7D II, if I had to summarize, it seems to me that the overriding message is: "Canon, we like the 7D, *so just don't screw it up!"*


----------



## pj1974 (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

I am a photographer who owns and uses the current 7D extensively, and I really like the camera. It is a very good step up from other APS-C cameras.

My 7DmkII wishlist is:

5 Custom settings on mode dial (get rid of "Creative Auto" and "Full Auto")
Apart from that keep the body the same
At least 2 stops cleaner 18MP APS-C sensor
Improved DR at all ISOs, especially at 100 and 200 (for landscapes)
Exposure bracketing allowing up to 9 photos (+/- 5EV)
Dual Digic 5+ (one dedicated to AF)
Built in interval meter
Price AUD $1800 - $2000

Possibly / optional (points below not critical to me)

Possibly up to 30 AF points (all cross-type, need to be well spaced out
ISO up to 25,600 (or 51,200 - even if noisy)
Fast & full time AF for video & Live View - linked to AF button (can use FT MF on USM lenses)
Dedicated mirror lock-up button, or assignable to an existing button eg MFn 
Sturdy flip out screen (useful for macros)
Option of 12fps @ 8MP or 10 fps @ 10 MP
Dual cards (SD backup for ultra critical events / photo outings)
With these 'optional' points included above, price AUD $2000 - $2200

Am I being unreasonable?

Paul


----------



## willy (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

My wishes for the mkII:
- ISO3200 clean pictures
- Better dynamic range than 7D
- Some in-camera capabilities: in-camera HDR pictures, in-camera noise reduction... 
- 100% viewfinder
- CF (dual or not)

Coming from the 400D, I'm sure it will be a great gear ! 
Good waiting for every one !


----------



## flanniganj (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

Although I'm still strongly considering the 5D3, a reasonably priced 7DII would be intriguing as well:


*Dig!c 5+:* Make it snappier, but keep the cost from exploding by omitting the additional Digic 5 (since the current one has dual Digic 4). I would settle for Digic 5+ and a Digic 4 if they still wanted two processors, but I would hope they go with a single to make Magic Lantern Unified available.
*10fps:* with the 5+, this seems to be pretty logical. Maybe 9fps. Not sure how much they would need to beef up the shutter. The 7D already shoots 8fps. I don't really need this, but the way I see it, they should use whatever the processor will give them, and then beef up the housing to handle it. Don't slow it down to what the housing can handle.
*18MP (APS-C):* I can't say I've seen a reason to increase it, especially if by not doing so makes the 10fps more feasible/cost-effective. The Digic 5+ made the 5D3 snappier and that's pushing more MPs at full frame and this one would still be a crop
*45-point AF at least 20 cross-type:* If they're improving the AF, this seems more logical than dropping in the 61/41 that's in the 5D3 and 1DX, in terms of pricing that is.
The Metering and AF system should be connected, like it is in the 5D3 and 1Dx
*One stop improvement in ISO and maybe DR:* Might be a bit much to ask if I want the price to stay close to what it is, but this _is_ a wishlist after all.
*Drop the pop-up flash:* I've never used it on my camera. Not once.
*Radio trigger:* in both directions. Camera to strobes, remote to camera.
*Dual card slots: *I don't care if they're CF or SD, just make them the same. Not a big deal, but consistency would be nice.
*Thunderbolt:* Pie in the sky I'm sure, but that kind of speed would be lovely. Especially considering that Intel is including Thunderbolt in new PCs now too, skipping right past USB 3.0.
I don't see them adding any more functionality to the video more than say what's gleaned from improved ISO and processing. If they had something like 1080p/60fps, it would be in the 5D3 or 1DX. But, perhaps something more possible: 1080p/48fps.
*Little things:* Mode dial lock, capacitive wheel (I thought that was awesome on the 5D3), 7-step bracketing, 3:2 viewing screen (although I think that will be a given), same battery.

Too much to ask?


----------



## RC (Mar 6, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



pj1974 said:


> I am a photographer who owns and uses the current 7D extensively, and I really like the camera. It is a very good step up from other APS-C cameras.
> 
> My 7DmkII wishlist is:
> 
> ...



Really like your list, especially two additional Custom Functions in place of the CA and A modes (I think P is more than enough for "auto" modes) I've always felt there should be 5 custom modes on all bodies! 

Also like the additional bracketing. I usually bracket in 2/3 stops but I'd love to do 9 - 1/3 stops. (Ya, I know I can do 3 sets of 3 by dialing the pointers more and less exposure, and sometimes I do.)

I use to wish my 7D had interval function like my P&S S80 but after I bought a TC-80N3 I'm more than happy to have this function as an accessory (and I'm sure Canon liked the extra bucks). A built in intervalometer would probably add $150 to the body.

For mirror lockup, I have an option for that under "My Menu"


----------



## Michael7 (Mar 6, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

If you folks want to see a one stop improvement in noise, you're going to need to bring the 18mp down to 14, 15, or even 12. There's just way too many pixels for a crop sensor right now. It is a great camera, but they went too far there.

I'm not interested in jpeg software wizardry, but rather a REAL one stop noise improvement that is noticeable from ISO 100 to 1600in an unprocessed RAW file.


----------



## JonJT (Mar 6, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



Michael7 said:


> If you folks want to see a one stop improvement in noise, you're going to need to bring the 18mp down to 14, 15, or even 12. There's just way too many pixels for a crop sensor right now. It is a great camera, but they went too far there.
> 
> I'm not interested in jpeg software wizardry, but rather a REAL one stop noise improvement that is noticeable from ISO 100 to 1600in an unprocessed RAW file.



1 stop increase would increase the margin over the D7000 by only ~1/4 of a stop, according to DxOmark's measurements. I'm not sure that is enough for the camera to remain relevant over it's ~3 year life cycle. I'm thinking, at least 1.5 stop increase to firmly establish Canon this cycle and frankly, I'm not sure I'd even consider buying one unless such an increase was realized, in addition to other sensor improvements. The sensor is the most salient "issue" with the 7D and, canon really needs to turn out a quality product to keep people on the bandwagon. 

If Canon doesn't realize such improvements, used 7D here I come!


----------



## pj1974 (Mar 6, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



RC said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > I am a photographer who owns and uses the current 7D extensively, and I really like the camera. It is a very good step up from other APS-C cameras.
> ...



Thanks RC for your reply to my post. (+1) 

Glad to know that you also see the convenience of those Custom settings on the mode dial. Why someone needs CA and Auto is beyond me. If I 'lend' my camera to someone, it's usually for 1 type of photography (eg 'photos of their children at soccer'- and I preset the certain custom setting and tell them to always have it on eg C3 - and give a few quick pointers about that style of photography.

I totally agree, so much handier to do many multiple exposures if eg can do 9 in a row, rather than '3 x 3'. Particularly if you don't have a tripod with you (eg using a rock, tree, etc). Thankfully the 8fps helps to capture the frames quickly (good for HDR).

In my case, I bought a Hahnel Giga T Pro II for Canon (bit less than $100) - which provides a good set of interval and remote functionality (particularly handy that I can sit inside and take photos many metres away with my camera outdoors). I use it (usually on a tripod obviously) for time-lapse photography, occasionally landscapes, macros and self-portraits or other detailed work) But yes, it would be good if even a basic interval meter could be built in... (without raising price, surely it's just a software / firmware possibility!)

Thanks for reminding me, yes I also have the Mirror-lock up function listed on 'My Menu' too. Sometimes I forget that I added it there several months ago (and go to "Custom settings"). I've set up so the Custom menu pops up whenever I press 'Menu' - and this is another very user friendly touch with the 7D, that adds to it being a powerful tool.

As to a few other postes mentioning it might be unrealistic to expect 'lower noise' (eg 1.5 to 2 stops better than the 7D) from an 18MP APS-C... I think it *can* be done... yes also by Canon... but surely the sensor will have to improved substantially. Technology does still afford us this scope, even with the dense pixel ratio. 18MP is just such a good size for me (for cropping, enlarging, etc). One can hope... and provide it on a 'Wishlist' at least! 

Cheers all. I enjoy posting on these forums.

Paul


----------



## wickidwombat (Mar 6, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

I dunno about a wishlist but this is what I think it will be

same body basically with slight build improvement
dual card slot CF/SD
use same battery
mode dial lock
27MP sensor maybe 28(they will want to 1 up sony i am sure of it  ) i know this is pushing the realms of resolution think of the prototype 50MP APS-H factored down to 1.6 APS-C

high ISO might be lucky to be a stop better but we will see definately wont touch the 5D3

I think they will sort out the issues with the current 18MP noise and softness
i think 2 Digic 5+ and 9FPS too
and agree 61pt AF will be on it
it definately wont have f8 AF

Price will be $2700 to $2500
and there will be rivers of tears over that last item

Thats my official prediction


----------



## kdw75 (Mar 6, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



wickidwombat said:


> I dunno about a wishlist but this is what I think it will be
> 
> same body basically with slight build improvement
> dual card slot CF/SD
> ...



If that price is right then I will just skip it and get a 5D MK III, which I am sure will be down around $3000 with a sale or rebate, sometime later this year.


----------



## ruuneos (Mar 6, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



pj1974 said:


> I am a photographer who owns and uses the current 7D extensively, and I really like the camera. It is a very good step up from other APS-C cameras.
> 
> My 7DmkII wishlist is:
> 
> ...


Totally agreeing with you! +1


----------



## 5dmk.iii (Mar 6, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



Michael_pfh said:


> Since this is a wishlist - built in battery grip would be great!



Built in? you mean a 1D form factor? What about the people who want a lighter body?


----------



## unfocused (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



> 27MP sensor maybe 28(they will want to 1 up sony i am sure of it  ) i



I don't think (hope) so. 

Canon seems to be going all-in on the "less is more" mantra for sensors. I really believe they have listened to their customer complaints about too many pixels. I also believe that Canon, better than any other manufacturer, knows the limits of pixel density. 

People assume that the high megapixel APS-H sensor Canon experimented with was headed for market. But it's also entirely possible that they learned some things about the limits of what could be done and what the downsides might be. Most research is more likely to result in learning what you *don't* want to do rather than what you *do* want to do.

They have been on the cutting edge of resolution density for the past several years. Perhaps they learned some things in their research and development and/or marketing research that made them decide to go in a different direction.


----------



## nicku (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



5dmk.iii said:


> Michael_pfh said:
> 
> 
> > Since this is a wishlist - built in battery grip would be great!
> ...



make it in two bodies type, one with integrated grip and one without. that feature will be a premier in DSLR market.

....and the price can be under $2400 ( say $2399 for the gripped one and $ 1799-1899 for the normal body). i personally believe that the gripped one will have more success.


----------



## wickidwombat (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



nicku said:


> 5dmk.iii said:
> 
> 
> > Michael_pfh said:
> ...



This is a great idea one i wish had been implemented with the 1Dx for those of us that hate grips and the extra bulk they create. thankfully the 5D3 looks like its gonna deliver the goods


----------



## funkboy (Mar 8, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Really though, this isn't that hard to predict. Too many people get caught up in what they want companies to do, instead of looking at what they are doing. An objective examination of Canon's recent actions points pretty clearly in this direction.



Agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## funkboy (Mar 8, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

Well, if Canon sticks with their current (& much-appreciated) theme of not giving a toss about the megapixel race and trying to make the best cameras possible, I think a 7DII would look something like this:


new backlit APS-C sensor bringing associated low-light performance improvements
as few MP as they think they can get away with, I'd imagine somewhere between 16 & 18
single digic 5+. plenty of processing power and keeps costs down & battery life up
as many of the new features from the 5DIII that they can squeeze in - hopefully the reduced moiré video processing will reduce the need for a strong AA filter
I'd imagine a bump in existing fps in order to placate those lamenting the loss of the 1D series. 9-10fps @16-18mp is likely possible with digic5+, and a 10fps APS-C mirror/shutter should be a walk in the park for them after having built the 1DX.
this is just a wish, but improved viewfinder if possible (the current one is already 1.0x/100% but perhaps they could make it a little brighter/snappier...)
under $US 2k

Look for an announcement either at Photokina or early 2013.

If they go with the backlit sensor or otherwise improve low-light performance by a stop or more, the 7DII could likely be viewed as the logical successor to the 1DIV.

I don't think we'll see a non-Ciné APS-H EOS DSLR again. It's pretty clear that Canon's APS-H fabrication unit has moved over to the Cinema EOS side of the house (brilliant move on Canon's part; APS-H is almost exactly the same size as Super 35 so repurposing the fabs shouldn't have taken much effort).

Here's a thought: what if one of the forthcoming "for mere mortals" Ciné cameras and the rumored mirrorless system are the same thing? There's an awful lot of synergy between the features of those two markets...


----------



## wickidwombat (Mar 8, 2012)

I think we should start sandbagging a levy here at canon rumors for when the 7D mk2 gets released at $2500+ to help stop the river of tears over the price


----------



## ruuneos (Mar 8, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *

Yeah it will be early 2013, probably around same time as 5D3 came


----------



## stilscream (Mar 9, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> I think we should start sandbagging a levy here at canon rumors for when the 7D mk2 gets released at $2500+ to help stop the river of tears over the price



+1000!! Ha ha. If you can't afford it, don't be mad at Canon. Perhaps take up another hobby? No way it's sub $2000. $2,100 at launch is my guess. 

My hunch specs are 10fps 
Better weather sealing (probably as vague as that too)
15mp with improved ISO performance
30-45 AF points
Dual CF/SD card slots
Headphones jack for video
Probably have something really gimmicky like available in off-white or 120fps 480video


----------



## JonJT (Mar 9, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



funkboy said:


> Well, if Canon sticks with their current (& much-appreciated) theme of not giving a toss about the megapixel race and trying to make the best cameras possible, I think a 7DII would look something like this:
> 
> 
> new backlit APS-C sensor bringing associated low-light performance improvements
> ...



I was actually thinking of waiting for the 7Ds successor but, the inevitable price increase combined with what I believe will not be that large of an increase in sensor performance is making me want to buy a 7D now.


----------



## Michael7 (Mar 9, 2012)

stilscream said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > I think we should start sandbagging a levy here at canon rumors for when the 7D mk2 gets released at $2500+ to help stop the river of tears over the price
> ...



Looks good to me. Dropping the MP from 18 to 15 or 14 is a must.


----------



## wickidwombat (Mar 9, 2012)

Michael7 said:


> stilscream said:
> 
> 
> > wickidwombat said:
> ...



if they could do this and get IQ equivalent to say the 1D4 it will be awesome 
a baby 1D4!

going back to a previous discussion if they made it say a 25MP APS-H that shot say 5 or 6 FPS in H mode and 10FPS in crop mode at 15MP and be able to use EF-S lenses accepting the vignette in H mode vs C mode
it would be totally awesome. all the while keeping IQ at 1D4 levels for ISO noise etc.

But I doubt we will see something this good


----------



## funkboy (Mar 9, 2012)

*APS-H mirror clearance of EF-S lenses*



wickidwombat said:


> going back to a previous discussion if they made it say a 25MP APS-H that shot say 5 or 6 FPS in H mode and 10FPS in crop mode at 15MP and be able to use EF-S lenses accepting the vignette in H mode vs C mode
> it would be totally awesome.



Don't hold your breath... I'm pretty sure I remember a Chuck Westfall interview from a few years ago where he said that the Nikon-style "crop mode" wouldn't be possible due to mirror clearance of the rear element of EF-S lenses on cameras not designed for it. If you think about it, when they designed EF-S in the first place they probably would have made every effort to maximize the benefits of the design by getting the rear element as close as possible to an APS-C mirror while guaranteeing 100% clearance.

Long ago I hacked the plastic ring off the back of a cheap used 18-55 like Bob Atkins did to get it to work on my 10D. According to the measurements Bob mentions in the article the rear element just barely clears the mirror of the 10D, so in all likelyhood you can be pretty sure that an APS-H mirror would whack into it...


----------



## KeithR (Mar 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



Marsu42 said:


> At 3200, it's either noise, nr-blur or artificial sharpness on nr-blur and the print or view size certainly cannot be 100%.



No, it's not. If this is what's happening in your case, it's down to you - your conversion and/or processing decisions need to be looked at.

I'll say it again. It's easy, but you need to figure it out.


----------



## KeithR (Mar 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



BRNexus6 said:


> Video is not clean at ISO 1600. 3200 looks awful.



Oh - so _now_ we're talking about video? 

You originally said:



> I'm expecting clean images at 1600 and usable images up to 3200.



The 7D does clean 1600 ISO - and much higher - images, _trivially_ easily.

*It just does*.


----------



## KeithR (Mar 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



Michael7 said:


> If you folks want to see a one stop improvement in noise, you're going to need to bring the 18mp down to 14, 15, or even 12. There's just way too many pixels for a crop sensor right now. It is a great camera, but they went too far there.



_Completely_ wrong. No matter how many times it's repeated, it's utter bull to suggest that a lower pixel count will provide cleaner images. 

Seriously. It's complete, unfounded crap.


----------



## smirkypants (Mar 10, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



KeithR said:


> Michael7 said:
> 
> 
> > If you folks want to see a one stop improvement in noise, you're going to need to bring the 18mp down to 14, 15, or even 12. There's just way too many pixels for a crop sensor right now. It is a great camera, but they went too far there.
> ...


This is one of those "all other things being equal" things. All other things aren't equal. All other things are NEVER equal. There's a lot of tech that goes into sensors and they are constantly improving. If you look at the noise tests of the 18MP 7D vs the 12MP D300s, the 7D usually wins. 50% more MPs and better noise performance. Even if you click on "round 2" to my eye the 7D wins.

http://www.photographybay.com/2009/10/27/canon-7d-vs-nikon-d300s-iso-test/


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## KeithR (Mar 11, 2012)

Exactly, Smirky - I'm just _so sick and tired_ of this baseless "less pixels = less noise" meme when _all of the evidence I've ever found, all the testing and research into the subject, and everything I've seen with my own eyes_ so clearly proves that it's simply not the case at at the image level.

Even if we _were_ in an "all things being equal" state, with two sensors absolutely identical in every particular except pixel density, I'm confident that the higher density sensor would still provide at least equal, and very likely better, IQ at the image level.

Sensor size matters, but at the image level pixel density does not, where noise is concerned.


----------



## KeithR (Mar 11, 2012)

Just to really drive the point home (and no doubt gather up some more bad Karma from the Flat Earthers who persist with this unsupportable belief...)


----------



## nesarajah (Mar 11, 2012)

KeithR said:


> Just to really drive the point home (and no doubt gather up some more bad Karma from the Flat Earthers who persist with this unsupportable belief...)


For driving home the point, you get 1 applaud. 
I think this problem was only made worse by the D800's launch . pity that this is coming back again.


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## stilscream (Mar 12, 2012)

Is it just me, or did those links prove the point further, less Mp will help with low light high ISO. Where all things being the same...as in, same size sensor (aps-c vs aps-c, FF vs ff and cmos vs cmos) and processor vs identical processor....lower Mp allows more light per mp, better DR, less Mp for the processor to correct....however you want to say it, there's less noise in lower Mp in low light. Some of these tests were clearly testing in bright studio lights or in bright daylight.


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## risc32 (Mar 12, 2012)

I think a lot of problems just come from the fact that most people are comparing these things by looking at 100% crops and not understanding that they are in effect just getting a much closer look at the noise with a higher MP camera.


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## unfocused (Mar 12, 2012)

I get a little frustrated that these discussions seem to consistently degenerate into "more vs. less" and "bigger is better" debates. 

What is kind of amusing is that sprinkled throughout the 50,000 different 5D III threads that have been started in the past few weeks is a undercurrent of frustration that the 5D III has fewer pixels than the new Nikon. Suddenly, it seems that some of the same people who have been preaching that the 7D is vastly inferior to the 5DII because of pixel density, now seem worried that the more dense D800 could outperform the 5D III. 

Note, I am not saying it will, I'm just suggesting that there seems to be some inconsistency here. 

My personal preference is that the 7DII retains at least the 18 mp it currently has. I find that to be an almost perfect number because it is sufficient to allow for printing large images when needed, allows for reasonable cropping when necessary and still retains manageable file sizes. I don't want to go down in resolution, but I'm not yearning for a big increase either.


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## briansquibb (Mar 12, 2012)

unfocused said:


> My personal preference is that the 7DII retains at least the 18 mp it currently has. I find that to be an almost perfect number because it is sufficient to allow for printing large images when needed, allows for reasonable cropping when necessary and still retains manageable file sizes. I don't want to go down in resolution, but I'm not yearning for a big increase either.



I have found the 1d4 a little limited with the 16mp against the 5d/1ds3 21mp.

Personally I think that the more mp the better providing the DR and noise isn't compromised. I dont even care how Canon does it - the only important thing is that the sensor delivers.


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## Marsu42 (Mar 12, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Note, I am not saying it will, I'm just suggesting that there seems to be some inconsistency here.



Personally, I find it inconsistent that Canon used to say many mp are great for cropping (in the times when Nikon only had 12/16 mp vs Canon 18/21), but now somehow seems to have discovered that 18 or 22 is a magic number, it's all about iso and you shouldn't worry too much about cropping possibilities after all (this is the time when Nikon has 36 mp)...


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## kdsand (Mar 12, 2012)

I know there are two bodies on lock down. How long they can sit in crate no idea.


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## boateggs (Mar 12, 2012)

With everyone always shouting in the Mp vs noise argument, and the recent score that higher Mp improves the noise, could this just be an improvement in circuity/micro lenses rather than higher Mp is better? This makes more sense to me than the Mp argument. Comparing 3 year old tech to current tech is hogwash in an "all things equal" comparison unless one takes into account that the manufacturing process probably is shrunk and efficiency is improved, among other non-marketing improvements


----------



## Michael7 (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



KeithR said:


> Michael7 said:
> 
> 
> > If you folks want to see a one stop improvement in noise, you're going to need to bring the 18mp down to 14, 15, or even 12. There's just way too many pixels for a crop sensor right now. It is a great camera, but they went too far there.
> ...



What an overreaction. Maybe it's time to turn off the computer and go outside for a bit.


----------



## Heidrun (Mar 12, 2012)

*IF there is no new 7D mk II*

What is the most likely model to apear from Canon then.
I have a 1D mk III. But need more MP and i cant afford 1D mk IV or 1DX


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## smirkypants (Mar 13, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I have found the 1d4 a little limited with the 16mp against the 5d/1ds3 21mp.
> 
> Personally I think that the more mp the better providing the DR and noise isn't compromised. I dont even care how Canon does it - the only important thing is that the sensor delivers.


I have consistently found for the photography that I do, that on sunny days my 7D with 1.6 crop & 18MP produces better results than the 1D4 with a 1.3 crop and 16MP.

There's no reason why Canon can't put out a great crop sensor. According to dxomark.com the second best overal dynamic range score is achieved by the lowly D7000 and its crop sensor, which can be had for just over $1000. The 7D is 46th. It also beats the 5D2 (and kills the 7D) in overall image quality. It takes great pictures and it's a crop.

The 7D2 should be a fantastic camera.


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## AprilForever (Mar 13, 2012)

KeithR said:


> Just to really drive the point home (and no doubt gather up some more bad Karma from the Flat Earthers who persist with this unsupportable belief...)



What's the russian website link?


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## briansquibb (Mar 14, 2012)

Ardea said:


> Who cares? HTe 7D mk ii will cost a whole lot, way too much imao, and not deliver a whole lot more than the underpowered original.



mmmmm - had a go at the 5DII in another thread saying 7D was as good as

this thread having a go at the 7d

You must be a troll


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## briansquibb (Mar 14, 2012)

Ardea said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Ardea said:
> ...


----------



## takoman46 (Mar 14, 2012)

Ardea said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Ardea said:
> ...



Ardea, calm down lol. Does it offend you that the 7D is subpar to the 5DmkII? It shouldn't offend you at all because after all... the 5D line is higher than the 7D line. So it makes perfect sense for Canon to pack more punch into the 5D lien than the 7D line.  For the record, your claim that "the 7D is probably the best camera in canon's lineup" is quite ridiculous. If the 7D were hands down the best camera, then why would people buy the 5D and 1D cameras? Also, why would I have bought and used both the 5DmkII and 7D and conclude that the 5DmkII produces much better results than the 7D? My opinion is not biased so chill out. You sound like you have a lot of pride in your 7D and I agree it is a nice camera in its own right but is not better than the higher FF models for obvious reasons.


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## funkboy (Mar 14, 2012)

...and yet another thread starts out interesting & descends into useless drivel after the first few pages...


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## unfocused (Mar 14, 2012)

funkboy said:


> ...and yet another thread starts out interesting & descends into useless drivel after the first few pages...



So true...so so very very true.


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## AprilForever (Mar 14, 2012)

unfocused said:


> funkboy said:
> 
> 
> > ...and yet another thread starts out interesting & descends into useless drivel after the first few pages...
> ...



This happens on every thing. Even on facebook; it seems I cannot post something but that within about five posts someone completely derails the discussion, usually a family member who grew up before the internet and has no concept of the rules and ettiquette thereof.


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## stilscream (Mar 14, 2012)

Ardea said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Ardea said:
> ...



Ardea, the faces of puzzlment are probably because from the various typos in all your posts make it look like you were typing with your penis instead of your fingers.


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## nicku (Mar 14, 2012)

ok , let's go back to the original topic.

5D3 solid and authentic rumors started to came out about 3-4 months before the actual release date. Not even a CR1 regarding 7D replacement.... so, judging by this pattern 7Dmk2 will be released no earlyer than Photokina or winter 2012/2013.


My guess regarding Canon on Photokina:

releases:

- 7Dmk2
- a megapixels monster DSLR
- a 4k DSLR


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## briansquibb (Mar 14, 2012)

nicku said:


> ok , let's go back to the original topic.
> 
> 5D3 solid and authentic rumors started to came out about 3-4 months before the actual release date. Not even a CR1 regarding 7D replacement.... so, judging by this pattern 7Dmk2 will be released no earlyer than Photokina or winter 2012/2013.



I hope they stick to 18mp and concentrate on IQ, DR and noise and upgrade the AF/metering to more pro standards


----------



## David KM (Mar 14, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > ok , let's go back to the original topic.
> ...



+1 to that !!!! I love my 7D more than the mkII but I'm not blind to the poor noise. 18mp is perfect for me.


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## weixing (Mar 16, 2012)

Hi,
7D2 is actually very easy to design... just get the 5D3, replace the FF sensor with a 18MP - 22MP crop sensor and increase to 8fps! That's it and I'm prepare to upgrade from my 60D... ;D

Have a nice day.


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## kdsand (Mar 16, 2012)

stilscream said:


> Ardea said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



Ha ha ha ha ha!
Lol!


----------



## NoWii (Mar 16, 2012)

Isn't there enough of a fight between canon and nikon users? Why do you have to argue between canon models?


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## unfocused (Mar 16, 2012)

Dang! We were so close to getting this thread back on track.

Well...the topic has probably pretty much played itself out, but just one general thought:

It seems like the 5DIII is all about the autofocus quality with some modest sensor improvements. (all else being just gravy)

I'm hoping the 7DII will be all about the sensor quality with some modest autofocus improvements. (all else being just gravy)


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## skitron (Mar 16, 2012)

IMO they most certainly will have a successor to the 7D. Maybe they call it something else, but bottom line is they aren't going to leave a gaping hole in the price tiers between the current $1K xxD and the $3.5K 5D3.

And I suspect they aren't going to try to fill that hole more than thru year end with the existing 7D and 5D2.

They could kick up the ISO a stop, do a pair of Digic 5, an articulated/improved screen, add audio level control in the firmware and charge $2.5K for 7D2 all day long the way prices work these days.


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## x-vision (Mar 17, 2012)

Canon slotted the 60D perfectly in-between the Rebels and the 7D. 
Yet, the 60D is perceived as a super-Rebel and Canon is forced to sell it at Rebel prices. 

To change that, Canon will likely spec the 70D better ... which will make it very close (identical?) to the 7D.

The only way I could see Canon having both 70D and 7DII in their lineup is if they put a different sensor in the 7DII.
Some new 1.6x sensor, with better low-light abilities than the sensor(s) in the next-gen Rebels and the 70D.

It's quite unlikely, though, that Canon will make a special sensor just for the 7DII.
More likely the 7D line will just be discontinued.


----------



## kaihp (Mar 19, 2012)

x-vision said:


> Canon slotted the 60D perfectly in-between the Rebels and the 7D.
> Yet, the 60D is perceived as a super-Rebel and Canon is forced to sell it at Rebel prices.
> 
> To change that, Canon will likely spec the 70D better ... which will make it very close (identical?) to the 7D.


So ... you're saying that Canon will push the xxD line back up to around where it was was BEFORE they introduced the 60D? 

The 60D was deliverately pushed down in the lineup to make a bigger difference between the 7D and the xxD line (compare the bodies of 50D with the 60D if you're in doubt), so I would doubt that Canon would reinstate the xxD line to where it was before. Personally, I consider a 7D2 (or whatever they'll end up calling it) to be more likely.

But we can definitely agree that there's a hole between the (Super) Rebels and the 5D's at the moment. As I see it, it is obvious that Canon will fill that hole with "something" - and right now we're calling that "something" 7D2. I don't see Canon pushing a "70D" upwards.

I have a 50D and would be looking to buy such a 7D2 body - I don't have the urge to pay for a FF sensor - an APS-C sensor is just fine, thank you. Since I shoot a lot of motorcycle track riding/racing, an upgraded 7D along the lines that has been suggested in this thread, would be close to perfect for me: I'm looking for a better AF system than I have now, better high-ISO performance and better IQ (neither the 50D nor the 7D images looks really sharp and crisp to me). No Mpix monster either, please - I have enough "bit-weights" on my hard drive(s). I rarely use full-auto, so the actual fps doesn't matter that much for me (8fps is fine), but the 7D feels much more 'snappy' than my 50D.



x-vision said:


> It's quite unlikely, though, that Canon will make a special sensor just for the 7DII.
> More likely the 7D line will just be discontinued.


Depends on what you mean by "a special sensor". If you're thinking an APS-H type sensor, I agree.
But I would be very surprised if they didn't make a new sensor at all for a 7D2.


----------



## x-vision (Mar 19, 2012)

kaihp said:


> I don't see Canon pushing a "70D" upwards.



This is where we differ. I believe they will. 



> Depends on what you mean by "a special sensor".



Right now Canon is using the same 18mp sensor for the Rebels, the 60D, and the 7D. 
By a "a special sensor" for the 7DII I meant a sensor used exlcusively in the 7DII. 

For example, let's say Canon puts a new 22mp sensor in the 70D and also in the next-gen Rebels - the same way as today.
Let's also say that they move the 70D upwards in terms of specs and price.
In this case I see *no* room in the lineup for a 22mp 7DII, as the 7DII would be basically identical to the 70D. 

However, if Canon puts a 16mp sensor in the 7DII (or a 28mp sensor), then the 7D line might continue. 

The point is, the 7DII sensor has to be different from the 70D and the Rebels for the 7D line to continue. 
Otherwise, I don't see Canon keeping the 7D line in the lineup.


----------



## briansquibb (Mar 19, 2012)

x-vision said:


> kaihp said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see Canon pushing a "70D" upwards.
> ...



This is where the APS-H could re-appear


----------



## nicku (Mar 19, 2012)

x-vision said:


> Canon slotted the 60D perfectly in-between the Rebels and the 7D.
> Yet, the 60D is perceived as a super-Rebel and Canon is forced to sell it at Rebel prices.
> 
> To change that, Canon will likely spec the 70D better ... which will make it very close (identical?) to the 7D.
> ...



Nobody ( here on this thread ) have taked in consideration the Nikon D300S replacement.

I am almost 100% sure that will be a 7D2. They will just not allow Nikon to rule supreme in the crop sensor Pro body segment. Don't mention the HUGE, HUGE commercial success of the current 7D camera.

The only question ( in my opinion) is when this will happen ?? before the new Nikon D400 is announced or shortly after (like D800 vs 5D3 case).


----------



## funkboy (Mar 19, 2012)

nicku said:


> Nobody ( here on this thread ) has taken into consideration the Nikon D300S replacement.



Not since the first page anyway... 

But you're right. The 7D (& the forking of the "prosumer" lineup to 7D & 60D) was basically Canon's response to the Nikon D300 (the 60D could be seen as a response to the D90) & the demand for a more professional crop camera. In a way, ever since the D3 and D300 came out Nikon has been calling the shots on what the market segments should look like, & it's been up to Canon to try to beat them at their own game. It certainly took a while for them to react but I think that with the 5DII and 7D they were pretty much there, & they'll certainly continue that strategy for quite a while longer. The industry is just on the tail end of the recovery from Fukushima, the banks breaking the economy, and the Thai floods; no one can afford a shakeup right now...

...Which is why they're both scared of Fujifilm. Right now, the X-Pro 1 is the smallest, least expensive, and sexiest camera with wedding-photographer grade image quality, and Fuji still has plenty of other tricks up their sleeves to roll out over the next year or so. I wouldn't be surprised at all if in a year's time we have a Fuji camera in the same size class and price bracket as the X10 with image quality as good as the current 7D.


----------



## briansquibb (Mar 19, 2012)

funkboy said:


> ...Which is why they're both scared of Fujifilm. Right now, the X-Pro 1 is the smallest, least expensive, and sexiest camera with wedding-photographer grade image quality, and Fuji still has plenty of other tricks up their sleeves to roll out over the next year or so. I wouldn't be surprised at all if in a year's time we have a Fuji camera in the same size class and price bracket as the X10 with image quality as good as the current 7D.



1. 7D is hardly a wedding grade camera
2. There isn't the range of lens to shoot a wedding.

Fujifilm will be a bit player for some time


----------



## smirkypants (Mar 19, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> 1. 7D is hardly a wedding grade camera


It depends upon which corner of the trailer park you live in. Not everyone shoots $100,000 weddings.


----------



## briansquibb (Mar 19, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > 1. 7D is hardly a wedding grade camera
> ...



True - a 10D would do it OK too

I would start true wedding grade with the 5Dc or 5DII


----------



## lonelywhitelights (Mar 19, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



BRNexus6 said:


> New APS-C 18 MP sensor
> 
> Digic 5+ processor
> 
> ...



7D replacement will never have a flip out LCD screen, it compromises build quality, build materials and weather sealing. For sports and wildlife shooters - a flip out LCD is completely pointless and not needed since the eye is generally glued to the view finder - for the indie film community it's pointless again because external monitors are used for higher resolution instead of the LCD


----------



## kevl (Mar 19, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I'm hoping the 7DII will be all about the sensor quality with some modest autofocus improvements. (all else being just gravy)



My plan had been to upgrade from the T3i to the 5DMkIII but the price is way outside of my dream budget. So I am really hoping that the 7DII will be all about sensor quality. 

Please please please Canon, please please! 

Kev


----------



## funkboy (Mar 19, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> 1. 7D is hardly a wedding grade camera


Uhm, I didn't say anything about the 7D & weddings; I was talking about the X-Pro 1:



funkboy said:


> Right now, the X-Pro 1 is the smallest, least expensive, and sexiest camera with wedding-photographer grade image quality, and Fuji still has plenty of other tricks up their sleeves to roll out over the next year or so.


I certainly wouldn't use it as my only camera, but with the 3 lenses they're shipping at release I think most professionals would be perfectly comfortable shooting a wedding with the X-pro 1 and 18/35/60mm trio (and maybe an adapted Nokton for posed portraits). I'd want another body like a 5D with an ultrawide on it and maybe a zoom in the bag just in case, but that would pretty much do it for me.



briansquibb said:


> 2. There isn't the range of lens to shoot a wedding. Fujifilm will be a bit player for some time


AF lens options will be limited for another year or so perhaps... You can be sure that there are a lot of wedding/artistic/street/travel shooters out there without the dosh for a digital Leica M that own M glass that are looking very keenly at moving up to the X-pro 1. The best adapted mirrorless options up 'till now (pana, oly, sony, ricoh, etc.) have been OK but none of them feel or handle like a rangefinder like the Fuji does, and the image quality speaks for itsself. The fact that Fuji's AF lenses cost half as much as their Canon L or Sony/Zeiss counterparts will certainly push adoption as well.


----------



## briansquibb (Mar 19, 2012)

funkboy said:


> I certainly wouldn't use it as my only camera, but with the 3 lenses they're shipping at release I think most professionals would be perfectly comfortable shooting a wedding with the X-pro 1 and 18/35/60mm trio (and maybe an adapted Nokton for posed portraits). I'd want another body like a 5D with an ultrawide on it and maybe a zoom in the bag just in case, but that would pretty much do it for me.



I dont think wedding togs would like that at all.


----------



## funkboy (Mar 19, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I dont think wedding togs would like that at all.



Consider me smoten


----------



## wickidwombat (Mar 19, 2012)

funkboy said:


> nicku said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody ( here on this thread ) has taken into consideration the Nikon D300S replacement.
> ...



Since I cant get smitted anymore i'm going to go out on a limb and say I think the fuji X10 image quality is better than the current canon 18MP sensor. it definately wins hands down in high ISO RAW and iso 100
strange considering its smaller sensor...


----------



## briansquibb (Mar 19, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> funkboy said:
> 
> 
> > nicku said:
> ...



Never liked the 7D IQ - so quite probably, but not close to the the 5s and 1s


----------



## wickidwombat (Mar 19, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Never liked the 7D IQ - so quite probably, but not close to the the 5s and 1s



oh no way, I put it's IQ close to the 1Dmk3 but the 1Dmk3 wins i think, i've been meaning to do a head head shootout between the 2 for fun with the 1D3 using the 14-105 f4 IS vs the x10 28-112 f2-2.8 IS
10MP vs 12MP both shoot at 10FPS


----------



## briansquibb (Mar 19, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Never liked the 7D IQ - so quite probably, but not close to the the 5s and 1s
> ...



Roll on the 7D2 complete with aps-h, pro af, twin cards, 16 mps and 10fps


----------



## wickidwombat (Mar 19, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> wickidwombat said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...


yep I really hope they do that with the 7D2  that is exactly what I want.
it'll never happen though  we'll have to keep dreaming about a baby 1D4


----------



## pj1974 (Mar 20, 2012)

While I have been following the 'relatively' recent rumours and then announcements of the 1DX and 5DmkIII... it is the 7DmkII that I'm really most interested in. 

The reason is that I have a 7D and I do not plan to move to a FF camera (at least, not at this stage). I enjoy photography as a serious and passionate hobby, and I take photos covering a wide variety of situations and genre.

I'm very happy with the 7D, though I do acknowledge actual image quality could be improved upon (noise at both low and higher ISO settings and dynamic range). There are also other improvements that could be implemented in a 7D replacement's handling and functionality too... However having written that, I find the 7D the most suitable camera for my needs and price range. 

Personally, I don't think that the 7D successor (aka 7DmkII) will be an APS-H camera. Actually I think that the APS-H sensor won't be produced by Canon any more, for any camera. Particularly with the announcement and release of the 1DX, I think the current / new Canon focus will be on APS-C for budget / entry level and 'reach' - and FF for megapixels and professionals.

I have a core set of lenses that I'm very happy with (including the Canon EF-S 15-85mm USM IS and the Sigma 10-20mm EX - which are only suitable for Canon APS-C cameras). I also love the 70-300mm L on my 7D (giving me the 'equivalent' of a 112 - 480mm in 35mm format). The Canon 100mm USM macro rounds out this 'core lens set'. 

So as a few people have already mentioned, I hope that the major improvement to the 7D will be better image quality (eg less noise at all ISOs). If they improve the AF and FPS, that will be a bonus. But I'm very content with the current 19 cross-type AF points and the 8 FPS. For example 2 weeks ago I took a series of bird in flight photos that I'm very happy with, and have received a lot of praise and appreciation from many people, including many serious photographers. See the photos attached to this post (note they have been downscaled for web).

Therefore I'm looking forward to what the future holds. I doubt that I'll 'jump' at the new 7DmkII when it's released, unless my current 7D is dead or 'on the way out' - and the 7DmkII street price upon release seems right. I expect I'll wait till I'll really need a replacement / new camera. Who knows, that might be when the 7DmkIII is being rumoured about... or even released. I used my Canon 350D from 2005 till I got my 7D in late 2009, and I use my 350D as a backup, and it still takes good photos (even with a high - over 80,000 shutter count!) 8)

Best regards....

Paul


----------



## wickidwombat (Mar 20, 2012)

Nice shots Paul!

I really wanted to get a 7D because its smaller than the 1D but when i compared it I still found the aging 1D to be better  i was very sad, I really hope the 7Dmk2 fixes up the sensor
and I am sure they will give it the 61pt sensor too, I'm pretty confident the 7D2 will stay APS-C as much as i wish for an APS-H small form factor i doubt i'll see one :'(

also unfortunately I expect any 7Dmk2 to come in at around $2500 which will make alot of people unhappy
me included but that seems to be the way of things

Ideally it would be nice if it were closer to $2000 but thats wishfull thinking 

I posted some pics from the 1D3 with the 600f4.5 FD lens here
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,3594.0.html


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## RC (Mar 20, 2012)

Paul those are great shots! Thanks for sharing. Would you mind sharing your settings? I'm specifically interested in what AF mode you use when shooting in AI Servo (moving/tracking subjects). 

I've been experimenting with different modes (single point expansion, zone, etc.), and have not come to any real conclusion. I do realize it depends on what you are shooting, distance, and so on.


----------



## x-vision (Mar 20, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Roll on the 7D2 complete with aps-h, pro af, twin cards, 16 mps and 10fps



Right, at a price above the 5DIII  .

Canon's new slogan: Just pay for it (if you can)!


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## briansquibb (Mar 20, 2012)

x-vision said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Roll on the 7D2 complete with aps-h, pro af, twin cards, 16 mps and 10fps
> ...



I think 5DII prices would be closer as the 5D3 is at the 1D4 price.

It wouldn't be called the 7D as that would cause confusion - lets call it the 6DX.

The 7D would continue in its current form as the budget sports camera with the 6DX as the premium sports camera. I doubt that it will happen - but it would be exciting if it did - would certainly give Nikon something to worry about


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## KeithR (Mar 20, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I would start true wedding grade with the 5Dc or 5DII



Or a 7D _used and processed competently_.


----------



## briansquibb (Mar 20, 2012)

KeithR said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I would start true wedding grade with the 5Dc or 5DII
> ...



Still doesn't match a 5DII _used and processed competently_


----------



## attesa (Mar 20, 2012)

The next "EOS 7D" might be called "EOS 7Di".

Checkout the description at adorama.com

http://www.adorama.com/ICAGPE2.html


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## kdsand (Mar 20, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



lonelywhitelights said:


> BRNexus6 said:
> 
> 
> > New APS-C 18 MP sensor
> ...



Oh hog wash!

It need not compromise build quality and for that matter the screen could be designed so that it could be readily replaceable. How many people are overly concerned about breaking their built in flash? And for those that are worried well if you keep it in the closed position you have nothing to worry about. Do you? ??? Keep it tucked away where it belongs at least in respectable company. :-[ There's no reason an lcd screen cannot be built as rugged and be as weather sealed as the 7 d body presently is.

The only way there would be potentially potentially potentially a problem is if Canon designed the 7D replacement with overall lower durable standards - lower quality. If if if if if they did put a swivel screen on the 7 d replacement it would logicaly be of good functional quality and rugged.

And as far being completely pointless...... Very subjective.
Just because one person will not or perhaps cannot see the usefulness of a tool doesn't mean all must be equally dim.


----------



## Marsu42 (Mar 20, 2012)

*Re: Canon 7D Mark II specs wishlist. *



kdsand said:


> lonelywhitelights said:
> 
> 
> > 7D replacement will never have a flip out LCD screen, it compromises build quality, build materials and weather sealing.
> ...



Personally when I bought my 60d, I thought I'd never use its screen. But I was wrong - apart from video of course, it's very useful when doing odd angle shots even of wildlife, it's a kind of "shoot around the corner" feature. And it's very useful when doing still macro shots on a tripod since you mf anyway.

As for build quality and weather sealing - I cannot see any potential problem with this, actually quite the other way around: If the screen is turned backwards, it's a very nice protection I'm frequently using when I'm hiking through stony areas or old buildings. My screen would have been broken already without this protection.


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## x-vision (Mar 20, 2012)

attesa said:


> The next "EOS 7D" might be called "EOS 7Di".
> 
> Checkout the description at adorama.com
> 
> http://www.adorama.com/ICAGPE2.html



Good catch !


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## kdsand (Mar 20, 2012)

I somehow ended up at Dan Carr Photography and found


> GP-E2: Geo-tag your images with compact, lightweight GPS
> 
> Also launching today is the GPS receiver GP-E2 – a new compact, lightweight, high- performance hot shoe GPS unit which makes it easy for photographers to geo-tag their images. Compatible with the EOS-1D X, *EOS 7D*3* and new EOS 5D Mark III, the GP-E2 tags photos with longitude, latitude and altitude data as well as the direction in which the shot was taken, adding information to the EXIF file of the image.



I dont know what to to make of it. 
???


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## unfocused (Mar 20, 2012)

x-vision said:


> attesa said:
> 
> 
> > The next "EOS 7D" might be called "EOS 7Di".
> ...



Ha! that's funny. Looks like somebody's fingers got to typing a bit too fast.


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## pj1974 (Mar 20, 2012)

wickidwombat said:


> Nice shots Paul!
> 
> I really wanted to get a 7D because its smaller than the 1D but when i compared it I still found the aging 1D to be better  i was very sad, I really hope the 7Dmk2 fixes up the sensor
> and I am sure they will give it the 61pt sensor too, I'm pretty confident the 7D2 will stay APS-C as much as i wish for an APS-H small form factor i doubt i'll see one :'(
> ...



Thanks wickidwombat

Yes I can imagine that even an ageing 1D body will have some advantages over the 7D. However for me, the 7D hit the right balance, between handling, image quality and price. While I have plenty of disposable income to afford a higher end camera, I aim to be a good steward of money - particularly donating to worthwhile causes around the world. 

When I compare the 7D to my 350D, the level of improvement on noise quality isn't that much, but it does have the advantages of more pixels and higher ISO settings. The biggest improvements for me were much superior AF, handling / usability, etc. 

I bought the 7D quite early on at a 'bricks and mortar shop' - so prices for it were fairly high; but I needed to as I am the designated photographer for charity camps I lead. These camps are for children in vulnerable situations. So I wanted a camera body that would work in that setting (good AF, solid body, higher ISO than my 350D could offer), and so the 7D definitely does very well for me. Also purely as a camera when used for the personal 'hobby' side of things, it does very well (my main genres are landscapes, wildlife and macro). 8)

While the sensor isn't nearly as good as the 5D or other FF versions, when it came out - it was the best APS-C camera on the market, and still is one of the better handling and suited AF systems of crop sensor camera bodies. I really dislike the 5D and 5DmkII AF points all being clustered in the centre. The new 5DmkIII 61pt AF (same as the 1DX) is a big improvement in this regard. I'm not sure that the 7D will inherit this though.... I'm happy with the 7D's current 19pt AF - as they are all cross-type and very responsive.

I agree with you that the 7DmkII won't use a APS-H sensor (personally I think Canon won't produce another APS-H sensor). I prefer the APS-C anyway - and look forward to some improvement in the replacement (mainly in ISO noise, sharpness and dymanic range). I don't want / need more than 18MP. Even slightly fewer MP would be ok by me. 

If such an improved 7DmkII will initially retail around AUD$2500 and will reduce a bit over time, that suits me (if I will need to replace my 7D... but it could be I don't need to!)

Thanks for your kind words on my photos..... I looked at your photos in your 600f4.5 FD lens thread, and posted a reply there too. Good wildlife shots! 

Regards

Paul


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## pj1974 (Mar 21, 2012)

RC said:


> Paul those are great shots! Thanks for sharing. Would you mind sharing your settings? I'm specifically interested in what AF mode you use when shooting in AI Servo (moving/tracking subjects).
> 
> I've been experimenting with different modes (single point expansion, zone, etc.), and have not come to any real conclusion. I do realize it depends on what you are shooting, distance, and so on.




Hi RC

I am glad that you appreciate the photos that I took and posted in this thread. THANKS!! 

Sure, I don't mind sharing my settings. Just to give you a bit of background, I 'came up' through the ranks of initially using a film P&S, then some Fuji digital P&S, then a Canon 350D DSLR in 2005 and a Canon 7D about 2 years ago. With each change of camera I had, I learned more about AF and had better bodies to practice with. Particularly with the faster response of the DSLRs... and the 7D captures many 'action' photos that I couldn't have with my 350D.

What I've found to be the best settings on my 7D for a 'bird in flight' (BIF) with a (relatively) busy background is the 'AF point expansion'. I keep the selected AF point over the bird, and it tracks well using AI Servo. If the bird is large, I can even use single point AF with AI Servo.

However with the photos that I took of these rapidly and erratic moving 'Little Wattlebirds' in flight, was the Zone AF. The reason is that the birds were quite close, and with the larger area of AF points selected, I was more likely to get an active AF point to pick up the birds against the mainly clear blue sky (there were a few clouds or at times trees near / in the frame when they were flying around -but most of the time it was clear blue sky). 

The birds were catching insects mid-air, and thus flying and swooping suddenly (they were perched, semi-hidden in branches - waiting till an insect (or many!) would come within certain distance - and they would go in for a meal! Taking these photos was a real challenge. I found the most successful setting for my camera was to have it on Manual (ie shutter speed of about 2500 and aperture f/5.6), with Auto ISO. (I like that even though I normally have ISO set to 1 full stop settings - ie I change between ISOs 100, 200, 400, etc - with Auto ISO it can go up and down in 1/3 EV settings!)

I was using my 70-300mm L lens which is very sharp wide open, also f/5.6 at 300mm - this was the best setting. The birds were so close that often I was not shooting them at 300mm as they were either too large to fit in the composition, OR too hard to 'find' at 300mm after they had launched in flight from the tree. (There were several birds around, perched across 2 trees which I was standing near / almost under!) So I usually had my lens at around 70mm - 100mm, hand on the zoom ring - and when a bird took off I then brought my camera to my eye quickly - and got focus on the bird, then zoomed in sufficiently (keeping AI Servo going all the time) - then 'snap snap snap' took a few photos in rapid succession. 8)

The 8 fps really helps in situations like this. Plus of course, it is basically essential to have a super fast focussing USM lens to capture these types of photos. 

I hope sharing my strategy and settings is helpful to you, RC (and to others who may be reading this thread). I am happy to share my experience (as I do with my recipes!)... we're not in competition!! 

Best wishes

Paul


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## kdw75 (Mar 21, 2012)

I am pretty happy with every aspect of the 7D except for its low light noise. With some work it gets better, but this is where they need to focus on improving.


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## HughHowey (Mar 21, 2012)

kdw75 said:


> I am pretty happy with every aspect of the 7D except for its low light noise. With some work it gets better, but this is where they need to focus on improving.



If recent events are any indication, there won't be any improvement at all. That way they don't cannibalize their 1DX sales. :


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## takoman46 (Mar 21, 2012)

HughHowey said:


> kdw75 said:
> 
> 
> > I am pretty happy with every aspect of the 7D except for its low light noise. With some work it gets better, but this is where they need to focus on improving.
> ...



And 5D Mark III sales


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## maxxevv (Mar 21, 2012)

Maybe its just me, but maybe its just a 'secret hope', logically to differentiate the 7D, Canon could plonk in the sensor from the 1Div and an articulated screen from the 60D (no additional R&D needed for a new sensor). And keep most of the other features on the current 7D intact except add a 1.6x crop option. (this part has been talked about on another thread somewhere ... its possible with a little optical/mechanical trickery as people were saying the EF-S back-focus issues). 

Keep the 8fps, 19pt AF, weather sealing and a US$2500 price and they have a hot seller ! ;D

It will serve as a logical upgrade path for the APS-C users like those on the Rebels and xxD cameras without alienating them off their crop lenses.


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## RC (Mar 21, 2012)

pj1974 said:


> RC said:
> 
> 
> > Paul those are great shots! Thanks for sharing. Would you mind sharing your settings? I'm specifically interested in what AF mode you use when shooting in AI Servo (moving/tracking subjects).
> ...



Thanks for the insight and taking the time to respond! Yes it was very helpful information and what you are saying seems very logical and make sense. I will say that there have been plenty of times I have been confused as to what AF points to use For moving subjects. I'm inspired to go out to my local bird refuge and work on AF tracking. 

With spring training (MLB) here in Arizona, and being played outdoors in plenty of light (as opposed to indoors during regular season), I've been practicing with action shots. I found AF expansion to work well with my 70-200 F4 IS for pitchers and batters. I try to sit at the first base line about 25 - 30 rows up. From this point I shift my AF points to far left allowing the batter to move into the center of the frame. I do just the opposite when shooting the pitcher--right side with the pitcher moving to the left. Lots of frames shot at 8fps trying to capture the bat striking the ball or the ball just leaving the pitcher's hands. Been shooting TV around 1/4000, wide open, auto ISO. Got some ok shots but need to tweak them in LR. 

Still a rookie and novice with photo editing, this is my next main focus and effort. Since beginning with film SLRs in the 80s and them switching to digital SLR just a couple of years ago (after a long absence), I consider myself to have a good knowledge of a photography but I need to work on various skills. So I turn to CR and other resources to assist in that. Thanks for contributing and sharing.


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## ruuneos (Apr 2, 2012)

I just check current pricing for EOS bodies and noticed at 7D "Replacement: 6 months" so does that mean we are going to see 7D Mark II in Photokina?


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## nicku (Apr 2, 2012)

i believe so....


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## surfing_geek (Apr 2, 2012)

ruuneos said:


> I just check current pricing for EOS bodies and noticed at 7D "Replacement: 6 months" so does that mean we are going to see 7D Mark II in Photokina?


I hope so! I'll be in the market for one. TBH, I'll probably just get the existing one once I can afford it, it still looks like an excellent performer and the noise that everyone talks about, I really don't think it's that bad. If I hadn't just spent so much on GoPro stuff for my honeymoon, I'd be looking at getting it now.


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## blufox (Apr 2, 2012)

I am an amateur but I am a fairly technical person.
Recently I got interested in Bird photography and find my T2i lagging. Sure I have a just 70-200 F4 L IS, which I am thinking of upgrading to 100-400 L.

I have noticed that because of such high pixel density getting a sharp shot of even slow moving birds in flight is extremely challenging. 7D has same sensor but a much much better AF, so I guess it suffers from same disease of "triple your usual shutter speeds to get crisp action freezing shots".

Above 800 ISO, you get extremely noisy images even after I dial in +1.5-2.0EV on my T2i. This is very disappointing as most of the fine shots I can see happen during early hours or near twilight.

Canon 5D Mark III is exciting but then I will loose the reach of 1.6x crop factor, which is not what I want. 

IMHO, 18MP is just too much for a crop sensor. 

My wishlist for a 7d MkII will be:-

1. 14-15 MP
2. Improved autofocus
3. 8fps being retained.
4. Configurable DOF button like 5d Mk III.
5. Usable ISO till 6400. 

I know usable ISO on a crop sensor is severely hampered. So my guess is perhaps Canon will make next 7D successor a 1.3x crop to give the much needed ISO boost. 

Wishful thinking ...eh?


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## briansquibb (Apr 2, 2012)

pj1974 said:


> What I've found to be the best settings on my 7D for a 'bird in flight' (BIF) with a (relatively) busy background is the 'AF point expansion'. I keep the selected AF point over the bird, and it tracks well using AI Servo.
> 
> I was using my 70-300mm L lens which is very sharp wide open, also f/5.6 at 300mm - this was the best setting.



+1 That is what I use - works well on the 1D4 as well (although I am now using the AV/auto iso technique now)


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## ruuneos (Apr 2, 2012)

Things what I would really like to see:
- Improved AF system with few more than 19 points
- Usable ISO to 6400-12800 like in 5D3, so basicly close to 5D3 ISO performance
- Dual card slot, CF/SD
- APS-C w/18-22 mp
- Improved movie mode
- Newly designed upper LCD screen and fully new LCD screen 3.2"
- 8-10FPS burst
- DIGIC 5+ and DIGIC 5 for metering

That's about it really looking for those and then see if going for upgrade from 7D


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## briansquibb (Apr 2, 2012)

ruuneos said:


> Things what I would really like to see:
> - Improved AF system with few more than 19 points
> - Usable ISO to 6400-12800 like in 5D3, so basicly close to 5D3 ISO performance
> - Dual card slot, CF/SD
> ...



All for $1500??


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## ruuneos (Apr 2, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> All for $1500??


Well... something of those would like to see


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## funkboy (Apr 2, 2012)

blufox said:


> Above 800 ISO, you get extremely noisy images even after I dial in +1.5-2.0EV on my T2i. This is very disappointing as most of the fine shots I can see happen during early hours or near twilight.



Up to the max "native" iso on your camera, you're better off just setting the iso to the exposure you need rather than messing with the compensation. Now, you certainly want to expose to the right, but unless you're in pretty dark conditions this usually won't be more than a stop or so, and certainly depends a whole lot on the scene.

But all other things being equal, as long as you're within the "native" iso range of your camera (not using "expansion" settings) the camera does some processing optimized for that particular gain setting. Compensation is best used to get the exposure "right" for a given iso, aperture, & shutter speed, rather than an alternative to using a higher or lower iso setting.


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## marcust (Apr 2, 2012)

Dont think Canon wont upgrade the 7D. Way to many have a need for a pro level 1.6 crop.

Their problem lies in what to do about the other crop bodies. As it is now the xxxD, and xxD lines are to similar. From a manufacturing perspective it is getting to costly to keep this many models, with so few differences on the table. Same thing is happening with the lenses too. 

The xxxD/xxD lines will probably be merged together, and give a clear position for the 7D replacement, to sit in the line-up. The price is gonna be kinda steep, around 3K.
I think in a few years the number of products that Canon offers for still photography will be smaller than whats out there today. 

Likewise on glass, the zoom offerings will be scaled back. Remember, Canon has to make a profit to stay in business.


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## surfing_geek (Apr 2, 2012)

What's to say they won't just do away with the xxxxD line? Wasn't this the latest addition in terms of lines? That way, the current xxxxD becomes xxxD, xxxD to xxD etc, the lines pretty much return to their original placings and once again regain some degree of separation. I know they won't be exactly how they used to be, but makes more sense to me than getting rid of the 7D line, or relegating it.


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## funkboy (Apr 3, 2012)

surfing_geek said:


> What's to say they won't just do away with the xxxxD line?



[list type=decimal]
[*]the competition
[*]having an EOS product in every price bracket
[*]popularity of current camera
[/list]


----------



## Danielle (Apr 3, 2012)

If a 7d mark ii actually appeared, I don't think it will groundbreaking at all. A few tweaks hear and there to up the usable iso's, maybe a couple more af sensors etc. The twin cf card thing too would be good.

They could make it a little better in those regards without it costing heaps more. Because seriously if a mark ii 7d is going to cost heaps heaps more than the one I have, screw that.

The step up from the 7d As I see it is the 1d mark iv. - If your like me with your shooting that is. Im not interested in the 5d mark iii at all! Its just too slow. I may grab a 1d mark iv if the prices drop for a second body.

By the way that 70-300L is a great lens. I'll put +1 for that.

And lastly, the 7d has been doing me so so well. Its just simply pretty great for me.


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## CanineCandidsByL (Apr 3, 2012)

It would be interesting to know if Canon considers the 7d a "pro" crop. There were many stories of 5dm2 shooters "upgrading" their 1 camera to two 7d's. I have the feeling, like video, Canon may regret the 7d as it provided too much for too little profit. Instead of taking this great thing and improving it, they want it to go away so it doesn't compete with they 5d line.

I'd be very happy just to see a natural progression of the 7d without any crippling of what's already there. A little more ISO, a little better focus, and maybe one or two "consumer" features that don't want to put in the 1d/5d family.

Even better would be the introduction of a true professional crop, but I'm afraid the price might go up significantly.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 3, 2012)

The announcement of the 60Da optimized for astro-photography should (But probably won't) put to rest the rumors of a 70D replacement for the 7D.

It is unlikely Canon would release a new variation in a body that they were planning to significantly upgrade in the next six months or so. The production efficiencies of using the 60D body for the new 60Da disappear if a significantly re-tooled 70D is released. 

On the other hand, if the 7DII and 70D releases follow the previous schedule, Canon will have almost a year of production left in the 60D after the new 7D is announced. Plus, keeping both models means that the 70D can continue to use much of the same tooling, etc. as the 60D, allowing Canon it avoid having to keep a separate production line operating for the niche 60Da. 

Repositioning the XX series once again never seemed to make much sense. I'm hoping the new 60Da will put that rumor to rest once and for all and let us focus on what is really important – fantasizing about what the 7DII might be like.


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## smirkypants (Apr 3, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Repositioning the XX series once again never seemed to make much sense. I'm hoping the new 60Da will put that rumor to rest once and for all and let us focus on what is really important – fantasizing about what the 7DII might be like.


+1
Makes no sense at all. The main difference between the lines will come down to build quality and shooting speed. I don't care that the images are the same, but build quality and shooting speed matter a lot to ME. 
(BTW, the 7D only needs better a bump in IQ and ISO performance, and another memory card slot... aside from that, we're all good)


----------



## Marsu42 (Apr 3, 2012)

unfocused said:


> The announcement of the 60Da optimized for astro-photography should (But probably won't) put to rest the rumors of a 70D replacement for the 7D.



Probably not  ... it's still a possibility that Canon might drop the 7d2 in favor of a new full frame body in the ~2000 bucks price segment and put in the 7d af in the 70d next year. But maybe that's just wishful thinking on my side.


----------



## smirkypants (Apr 3, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Probably not  ... it's still a possibility that Canon might drop the 7d2 in favor of a new full frame body in the ~2000 bucks price segment and put in the 7d af in the 70d next year. But maybe that's just wishful thinking on my side.


The 5D3 is basically a full frame sensor in a 7D box. It's the full frame 7D that lots of people pleaded for. Something in the ~$2000 price range would need lower build quality. We already have that: the 5D2.


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## briansquibb (Apr 3, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> The 5D3 is basically a full frame sensor in a 7D box. It's the full frame 7D that lots of people pleaded for. Something in the ~$2000 price range would need lower build quality. We already have that: the 5D2.



There are some shared style features - but that is all


----------



## Marsu42 (Apr 3, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> The 5D3 is basically a full frame sensor in a 7D box. It's the full frame 7D that lots of people pleaded for. Something in the ~$2000 price range would need lower build quality. We already have that: the 5D2.



Indeed! And that's why they probably will release a new 5d2-like body, I cannot believe they plan to produce both the 5d2 and the clear successor 5d3 for years to come or they would have given the 5d3 another name. And just phasing out the 5d2 would raise the entry price tag to the ff world much too high, esp. since it's ff body owners who buy Canon's expensive L glass.

So a feature-cut 5d3 with more recent tech (sd cards...) and the usual Canon annoyances to make people with they had "the real thing" might be ahead.


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## smirkypants (Apr 3, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> There are some shared style features - but that is all


That's exactly right. But the people who lobbied for a full frame 7D were basically looking for something that had excellent auto focus, fast shooting speed and rugged build quality. Granted, they also wanted all of that for half the price of the 5D3, so aside from the cost and 2fps, they essentially got their wish and then some.


----------



## x-vision (Apr 3, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> The 5D3 is basically a full frame sensor in a 7D box. It's the full frame 7D that lots of people pleaded for. Something in the ~$2000 price range would need lower build quality. We already have that: the 5D2.



Exactly. 

The rumor is that the 5DII will remain in production untill this fall. 
So, at least through the holiday season this year, Canon will have an "entry level" FF camera (5DII) and an advanced FF camera (5DIII).

After that, the 5DIII price will drop below $3000 and become more affordable.
At the same time, a new 70D at $1300-1500 will replace both the 60D and 7D.
No room for a 7DII in the lineup, IMO.


----------



## briansquibb (Apr 3, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > There are some shared style features - but that is all
> ...



Button layout different, 1DX style AF, twin cards better weatherproofing etc 

The shell may be 7D like but inside it is closer to the 1DX


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## thetenken (Apr 3, 2012)

What about:

1. 5DMk3 - $3500
2. 5DMk2 - phased out to allow for #3, or kept at $2000-$2100 price point
3. entry level full frame (19-36 point AF, 21-22MP, 4 fps, improved ISO performance, digic 5, cheaper body) - $2500-3000
4. 7dMk2/70d (36-61 point AF, 16-19MP, 6-8 fps, crop sensor, improved ISO/noise performance, weatherproof, dual digic5) - $1800-$2200
5. 7d - $1200-$1400 (eventually phased out)
6. 60d - $800-900
5. T4i (9-19 point AF, 16-19MP, 4fps, digic5, crop) - $800-1000 
6. Keep T3 ($500-600) for a bit longer, possibly phase out for Mirrorless.

Creating a true 70d under the 7dMk2 would work, just make it less weatherproof, single digic5, 4fps, 24-36pt AF). The above changes would go with their "evolution" model.

Mirrorless entries:
1. $1000-1500 (competitor to the NEX-7, Nikon V1)
2. $600-800 (competitor to the NEX-5N, Nikon J1)

With mirrorless, I can see them going two ways: either go with an APS-C sized sensor like Sony/Samsung or keep the 1.5" G1X sensor. The trick is getting their lenses to work. I can see them completely phasing out EF-S lenses (or at least not developing any new lenses) and developing new, smaller lenses for their mirrorless cameras.


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## Tracy Pinto (Apr 3, 2012)

There is plenty of room for an upgraded 7D. 

The pricing on the 5D Mark III created the room. There are features that can be added within the current price of the 7D that will keep it selling fast and well loved. The 5D Mark II will be phased out in time and the if the 7D was not upgraded you would have a crater between the $900 60D APS-C and the $3,500 5D Mark III. Once the R&D is done on the features of the 5D Mark III and the 1D X Canon will monetize them by putting them judiciously in cameras that will sell more briskly. The XXD series will also get new features but the 7DII is great aspirational bridge they don't want to phase out.


----------



## briansquibb (Apr 3, 2012)

thetenken said:


> What about:
> 
> 
> Creating a true 70d under the 7dMk2 would work, just make it less weatherproof, single digic5, 4fps, 24-36pt AF). The above changes would go with their "evolution" model.



Surely that would be a 700D? I would be lower spec than the current 60D


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## thetenken (Apr 3, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> thetenken said:
> 
> 
> > What about:
> ...



How would that be a lower spec than the 60d except the 5.3fps vs. 4fps? Keeping at 5.3-6fps is also possible.


----------



## briansquibb (Apr 3, 2012)

thetenken said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > thetenken said:
> ...



The xxD range has always been a higher frame rate with the xxxD being 3-4fps. Would be like bringing out a 7D replacement with 5fps


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## x-vision (Apr 3, 2012)

Tracy Pinto said:


> The 5D Mark II will be phased out in time and the if the 7D was not upgraded you would have a crater between the $900 60D APS-C and the $3,500 5D Mark III.



This assumes that the xxD line will stay at $900.

But the 60D was announced at $1100 and in terms of specs was slotted nicely between the 7D and the Rebels.
So, it's obvious that Canon wanted to charge more for the 60D.

If the 70D is announced at $1300-1500 and the 5DIII drops below $3000, the pricing gap between the two is not going to be that large. 

In fact, it would be the exact same gap that existed between the 20/30D and the original 5D back in the 2005-2007 period.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 3, 2012)

thetenken said:


> How would that be a lower spec than the 60d except the 5.3fps vs. 4fps? Keeping at 5.3-6fps is also possible.



And note that the actual fps of the 60d is a little faster than 6 fps and much faster in live view, obviously they just wanted to have a gap to the 7d on paper. So "real" 4fps would be a knock out feature for 60d->70d upgraders.



x-vision said:


> But the 60D was announced at $1100 and in terms of specs was slotted nicely between the 7D and the Rebels.
> So, it's obvious that Canon wanted to charge more for the 60D. If the 70D is announced at $1300-1500 and the 5DIII drops below $3000, the pricing gap between the two is not going to be that large.



In this case gap between the xxd and 5d3 might indeed become smaller, but imho the gap between the entry-level xxxd and amateur xxd would become too large.

Advanced amateurs aren't meant to and won't want to get a xxxd/650d, but it's questionable if Canon would get away with selling a $1500 xxd/70d aps-c body nowadays when Nikon (and maybe Sony) competitors are cheaper for comparable or even better feature sets (back dial, a little more sturdy body, ~6fps+ rate, somehow usable af).


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## BobSanderson (Apr 3, 2012)

Tracy Pinto said:


> There is plenty of room for an upgraded 7D.
> 
> The pricing on the 5D Mark III created the room. There are features that can be added within the current price of the 7D that will keep it selling fast and well loved. The 5D Mark II will be phased out in time and the if the 7D was not upgraded you would have a crater between the $900 60D APS-C and the $3,500 5D Mark III. Once the R&D is done on the features of the 5D Mark III and the 1D X Canon will monetize them by putting them judiciously in cameras that will sell more briskly. The XXD series will also get new features but the 7DII is great aspirational bridge they don't want to phase out.



This makes sense. The 7D should be updated with some of the features of the flagships while keeping the price affordable near its current range. The xxD line adds values at its price range around 1 K as a stepping stone and the Rebels can come in below for hobbyists and families on a budget. Is important to Canon to match people's aspirations with options that offer real value and performance differences.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Apr 3, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Probably not  ... it's still a possibility that Canon might drop the 7d2 in favor of a new full frame body in the ~2000 bucks price segment and put in the 7d af in the 70d next year. But maybe that's just wishful thinking on my side.
> ...



With so many shared features from the 1dx, its a stretch to say the 5dmkiii is a FF sensor in a 7D box...

If canon's plan is to keep the mkii in production till fall then it may be that we will see a 7d2, as to the specs, I'd say it will follow the evolution path - but it depends on the price point it will be at --- if its to be a $2000 or less body, it will probably have:

1 card slot
similar build quality (I had half a beer spilled on mine a month ago - weather sealing worked like a charm!!!!)
same ISO range but improved noise quality in the 3200-6400 range (I'd much rather have that than an expanded ISO range with little to no improvement in quality) - or maybe add one higher iso stop (that would keep it one less than the 5d3)
same frames per second, a few more AF points (as high as 41, maybe less)
dual digic 5
22 MP 

any more than that and its no longer hitting that 18-22K price point.
any more than that and it could eat away at 5d3 sales
its not a holy bejessus I have to upgrade cam - its enough to make t an xxd series users consider it, its enough to entice current 7d users into it, but not quite enough to pull on the fence 5d2 users away from the 5d3 - also not enough for those like me on a 7d who want to go FF and is saving for the 5d3 to instead say i'll just go with a 7d2 - it can't have everything the 5d3 has minus the ff sensor, or those like me may shift. It would please the wildlife togs who want the crop to get extra reach. Marginal evolutionary upgrade....not a revolutionary one

All this depends on their plans though. If the 7d2 is slated for release a year from now, that's what i suspect we'll get. If its 2 years off though, they may go with something thats more revolutionary (28 MP, 8 frames per second, dual digic 6, 61 pt AF). 

I kind of see the 7d as almost an R&D experiment, a cam designed to test features they want to put in their 1d/5d lines. And with the MP race on, a 28 MP crop would eat at the segment of the d800 market that loves the crop function for the reach - canon may very well be waiting on higher mp's so they can get the digic 6 running so that can actually hit 8 frames per second with high MP...but I wouldn't count on any of that if the 7d2 is slated for late 2012/early 2013...

just my 2 cents


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## unfocused (Apr 3, 2012)

BobSanderson said:


> Tracy Pinto said:
> 
> 
> > There is plenty of room for an upgraded 7D.
> ...



Yes, this all makes sense. Since we are speculating here, I predict the following:

5D jr. (They will need a new name here.) Full frame "entry-level" Frankencamera. Sensor: either current 5DII or 5DIII depending on whether it is cheaper to keep making the 5DII sensor or just up the volume of the 5DIII sensor. Canon likes to reuse sensors, so it makes sense to hand the 5D III sensor down to the "jr." Processor? Again, is it cheaper to keep making Digic IV or to use Digic V? I'm guessing Digic V. So, we could see a full frame "entry level" body with a new sensor and new processor, but keeping most of the other features of the 5DII. Price this in the $2,000 to $2,500 range. If all they do is change out the processor and sensor, it may not be much more expensive to manufacture than the current 5D.

7D II Modest autofocus improvements, improved sensor with better low-light performance and reduced noise. Sensor remains somewhere in the 18mp range. An 18mp APS-C sensor would likely enable Canon to use just one processor instead of two, cutting their processor costs in half, while still boosting or maintaining the current frame rate. With three years of R&D under their belts, the image quality should be roughly equal to the 1D IV, enabling Canon to market the camera to wildlife and sports photographers as well as enthusiasts and prosumers. Priced between $1,600-$1,900 (this is a very competitive niche, so Canon is more price-restrained than with the 5DIII).

70D Will inherit the 7DII sensor after about 9 months to a year. Other modest upgrades to allow for room at the bottom end of the line for enhancements to the Rebels. Again, pricing will be determined primarily by the competitive marketplace, but likely will be similar to the current 60D. 

7Dx: Pure speculation/dreaming on my part, but I still don't think we can rule out the possibility of an integrated gripped 7Dx with additional weathersealing and perhaps a higher frame rate, geared toward wildlife and sports photographers. As a successor to the 1D IV they have a lot of pricing flexibility here, but I will be conservative and say they keep it in the $2,500 range. High enough to make a tidy profit on the improvements, but low enough to entice enthusiasts with discretionary income.


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## darkstar (Apr 4, 2012)

I see room for a 7Dii provided it'll have 

dual card slot (sdx / CF)
dual Digic 5
APS-C @ 21-22MP
Better hi-ISO performance (hi ISO standard @ 25600)
8FPS
USB3
built-in GPS


Same current 7D price


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## kdsand (Apr 4, 2012)

darkstar said:


> I see room for a 7Dii provided it'll have
> 
> dual card slot (sdx / CF)
> dual Digic 5
> ...



Some sort of modest pixel increase is logical - not necessary but logical.

SD cards are now cheaper, readily available, very fast and the better cards are just as reliable as CF cards so I would not be surprised if there was a SD slot or two.

While built in GPS makes sense especially on the 7D? Since Canon just released stand alone gps unit I doubt it will happen because they make money selling the excessory.  :'(

The sensor & the autofocus will be the key. I would imagine these would have to have wow factor and instill lust.



Price -------

Lol 
"sob, sob, sob" 
Lol

(One second I'm weeping again) :-[
...............
...............
...............

OK OK I will be OK....

:'(
The price will be substantially higher much higher.
:'(


----------



## Chuck Alaimo (Apr 4, 2012)

darkstar said:


> I see room for a 7Dii provided it'll have
> 
> dual card slot (sdx / CF)
> dual Digic 5
> ...



doubtful it will have 2 card slots and still be at a similar price. Also doubtful that it would have such a high native iso, doubtful it would have usb3 - and please no gps, i have enough things tracking my location and movements anyways, no need at all for my camera to do it too.

I would much rather have some smart evolutionary changes - same iso range, but improved quality in the 3200-6400 range (I just don't see the point in taking it any higher unless the the noise quality can be improved).

All in all the current 7D is a pretty solid camera, improve on its shortcomings and canon has a winner. Toss in a bunch of garbage new stuff without fixing the shortcomings and its just a marketing tool...


----------



## kdsand (Apr 4, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> darkstar said:
> 
> 
> > I see room for a 7Dii provided it'll have
> ...




GPS on the 7D would be huge. 
Sports, street, landscape and nature shooters would love it. It would be a notable selling point 4 many people. 
When you would not want to use it you can always turn it off so that really should not be a concern. 

:-\ Besides most photos taken out doors can often have the location backtracked already even without gps identification.

Unfortunately(?) as we know canon has a brand new external gps module. Building the gps into a 7D body is unlikely given that they can sell you the separate module. This is unfortunate and shame though because the 7 d is a camera that you don't really wanna have a lot of stuff sticking out of because it's often used in ruffer environments or conditions where it gets jostled. If its built in you don't have to worry about forgetting to turn it on or about the battery dieing or any number of other things.


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## nlunardelli (Apr 8, 2012)

Any idea when it will come out the 7DII?


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## Marsu42 (Apr 8, 2012)

nlunardelli said:


> Any idea when it will come out the 7DII?



Not sooner than Canon figures out how to squeeze another body in their lineup between the 5d2, 5d3 and 60d - now that the 5d3 has an advanced af, too, there really has to be something new for the 7d2 - either never heard of before features or a much lower price tag, but that would collide with the 60d/70d.


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## ruuneos (Apr 8, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> nlunardelli said:
> 
> 
> > Any idea when it will come out the 7DII?
> ...


Like in Canon rumor's "Price watch" it says replacement in 6 months and that match pretty close to Photokina 2012, let's just chill and wait rumors to come


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## x-vision (Apr 8, 2012)

nicku said:


> Nobody ( here on this thread ) have taked in consideration the Nikon D300S replacement.


There's increasing chatter in the Nikon camp that the D400 will be full-frame, not DX. 
The speculation is that the D400 will have a 24mp FF sensor and will be sold for less than $2500 (in the US). 

Also, Nikon just obtained a patent for a 24-70mm f/3.5-4.5 lens. 
As per NikonRumors.com, _this lens only makes sense as a part of a "cheap" full frame body kit_.
http://nikonrumors.com/2012/04/06/nikon-filed-a-patent-for-a-24-70mm-f3-5-4-5-full-frame-lens.aspx

If the D400 is indeed FF and is priced around the $2500 mark, things will get _very _ interesting for both the 5DIII and the 70D/7DII 8).


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## jhpeterson (Apr 8, 2012)

When the 5dMk2 gets phased out there will be a giant gap between the price of it and the 60d or its successor. Into this hole would logically go an entry-level FF body with still plenty of room for another. The 7dii would fill this space.


darkstar said:


> I see room for a 7Dii provided it'll have
> 
> dual card slot (sdx / CF)
> dual Digic 5
> ...


While I could totally do without a slot for sd/sdx cards (I find them too small to handle, too easy to drop or lose in many outdoor situations), I could see it would make sense to take a wireless card.
The dual Digic 5 seems a given. 
And, I would rather have better high ISO performance than more pixels. 
8 fps is nice, but 7 or even 6 would be quite acceptable if the lower speed was exchanged for faster, more accurate autofocusing.
Given the nature of what I do, I'd like to see even better waterproofing so it matches the level of the 1D series.
USB3 would be great, but not a dealbreaker.
As for GPS, not really necessary. Seldom have I ever had to recall EXACTLY where I was when I took a photo.

Also, two things that I would ask for would be a larger viewfinder (the tiny image where it's hard to make out details, especially in the corners, is a major reason why I'm not a big fan of the current line of APS-C models) as well as a control dial (the one on top) that locks out, so I don't find myself in some mode not intended. 

And, yes if I could have this for about the same price as the current model, I'd likely order one (or more) of the first ones.


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## Scooter (Apr 9, 2012)

On more than just Canon Rumors and NorthLight Images, it has been said that Canon has not or will not give up the H-crop 1.3X sensor ? Maybe the 7DMK2 will have it ? Maybe Canon can get EF and EF-s lenses to work on it ? Most likely not, just EF/Full Frame lenses ? Keep it at 18MP, maybe 8 to 8.5 FPS, get the Noise down. 
I would rather see 2 CF card slots, better AF, better weather sealing, and do like Nikon does- give us the choice to select 3 or 4 or 6 frames per second, not just 3 fps & then 8 fps !


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## solarpos (Apr 9, 2012)

7D2? Are you all insane? There are letters to Ken Rockwell to be written……Priorities people


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## Danielle (Apr 9, 2012)

The 7D has been fantastic to me. Its reliable, its fast, its relatively weather sealed (a must for me) and the most important bit, I have been making and continue to make very good shots from it.

If a new model comes out, I hope beyond hope it remains 8 frames per second. Gets dual digic 5 processors and a little more iso capability (clean iso that is), plus not making the cost skyrocket. That would be enough for me and if I haven't upgraded to a 1d mark iv as a second body by then, I'd buy a mark ii 7d.

Im not holding my breath a 7d mark ii will be anytime soon though. I don't need it yet, thats for sure.


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## AprilForever (Apr 9, 2012)

If they make the 7D mk ii full frame, and sell it for 2500, there will have to be a reason they are selling it for 2500. A FF Camera, at 8FPS, with weather sealing and fast AF, is nearly a 1DX. It is sheer madness to assume canon would make a full frame camera with the 7D's abilities, and sell it for less than the 5D III (at 6 FPS... with its epic AF). Seriously, understand what you are asking for. Want budget Full Frame? Go film! Want budget full frame digital? Get a 5 D mk II!!!!

Seriously, the 7D only makes sense at APS-C. Anything else is loses focus of the purpose of the 7D.


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## D_Rochat (Apr 9, 2012)

I want a 7DII for $2000 with the following specs

Full Frame
18.1MP
Dual DIGIC 5+ – 17 Times The Processing Power of DIGIC 4
ISO 100-51200 Native
100,000 Pixel RGB Metering Sensor
EOS iSA (Intelligent Subject Analysis)
61 Point AF
21 f/5.6 Cross Type Sensors
20 f/4 Cross Type Sensors
5 f/2.8 Cross Type Senors
EOS iTR AF (Intelligent Tracking & Recognition Auto Focus)
12 Frames Per Second
14 Frames Per Second JPG Only
400,000 Shot Rated Shutter
Ethernet Connection

It would be unreasonable for Canon not to deliver


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## DHL1313 (Apr 9, 2012)

I'll take 2 LOL 8)


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## !Xabbu (Apr 9, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> nlunardelli said:
> 
> 
> > Any idea when it will come out the 7DII?
> ...



I have read this multiple times now and don't really understand why there shouldn't be room for an upgraded 7D. The way I see it, there is

1D X for about USD 7,000 for the professional sports photographer with pro AF, insane FPS, ...
5D III for about USD 3,500 for the professional who doesn't need the FPS of the 1D
5D II for about USD 2,100 for the landscape and studio photographer, with stone age AF, but stellar IQ
7D for about USD 1,300 for those photographers, who want good AF, high FPS, but can't afford the 5D III or a 1D
60D for about USD 1,000 with better AF than 5D II, more FPS than 5D II and same IQ as 7D for people on a budget

So, to me it feels like there is a huge gap between 5D III and 7D, which is not really filled by the 5D II for many people. I think a 7D II with an improved sensor, Digic V, about the same FPS for USD 2,000-2,500 would fit in pretty well. Then there would be room for a 70D with improved AF, slightly increased FPS (back to 6.3 or so) and the new sensor for USD 1,500-1,800.


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## Ew (Apr 9, 2012)

If noise was usable at 3200-6400, and no other changes, I'd swap today.
Additional SD card would be nice for live backup.


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## ruuneos (Apr 9, 2012)

Once again I check current price's and noticed this: both 7D and 60D got "Replacement: 6 months" so are we going to see combination of those?


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## D_Rochat (Apr 9, 2012)

kdsand said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
> 
> 
> > darkstar said:
> ...



Don't hold your breath on built in GPS in the xD line. There are areas that photographers work that prohibits GPS. Prohibited GPS + built in GPS = no access. That's why you get the option for external GPS.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 9, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Don't hold your breath on built in GPS in the xD line. There are areas that photographers work that prohibits GPS. Prohibited GPS + built in GPS = no access. That's why you get the option for external GPS.



But it would be nice to have built-in bluetooth for gps devices (mobile phone, gps logger) instead of some obscure proprietary connector or a flash-shoe mounted device. A bluetooth chip certainly could be included in a body of that size and price - and shouldn't raise any security concerns, or would it?


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## D_Rochat (Apr 9, 2012)

I don't see how some sort of wireless function (with very limited range) would pose a security risk on a camera. Building an external wireless GPS unit would be beneficial. Why they don't do that? Don't know. Expect a jaw dropping price tag if they ever do.


----------



## Marsu42 (Apr 9, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> Expect a jaw dropping price tag if they ever do.



Looking at the latest Canon releases, I'd expect a jaw dropping price for each and every part that has "Canon" on it, including plastic lens hoods :-o ... I really hope mirrorless and Sony/Nikon do kick Canon's a** to move their semi-pro/amateur line into some affordable regions without hidden annoyances all the way.


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## Tracy Pinto (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm not sure why anyone would cheer for Canon not to update the 7D. It is three years old and there are features that would improve it. Nikon's D7000 is a terrific camera that sells for hundreds less. 

For those that prefer the reach it offers, it would be great to achieve improved DR, better IQ and some minor refinements/additions to bring the camera closer to the new ff siblings. This will not only make the product line stronger but also offer more choices for a natural progression up the product line. The Rebels make great DSLR entry choices and I see them everywhere. The XXD is the perfect hobbyist/amateur choice. The 7D is and can remain, with an updating, the perfect bridge to the pro-lines found in the ffs. The 7D is already v.good but it can be better still (if the pricing is kept under control) to attract more waves of pro-sumers.


----------



## Marsu42 (Apr 11, 2012)

Tracy Pinto said:


> Nikon's D7000 is a terrific camera that sells for hundreds less.



I guess that's just the point: Is there a large enough market for the most expensive aps-c body on the block when in the tech department the ff 5d3 has outclassed it? The price tag of the xxd or Nikon might be more in line with the ef-s or dx lenses used for them.


----------



## Tracy Pinto (Apr 11, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Tracy Pinto said:
> 
> 
> > Nikon's D7000 is a terrific camera that sells for hundreds less.
> ...



The 5D Mark III is $3,500 - that creates plenty of pricing room for a lesser, but still great, model at a fair price with a smaller sensor.


----------



## Marsu42 (Apr 11, 2012)

Tracy Pinto said:


> The 5D Mark III is $3,500 - that creates plenty of pricing room for a lesser, but still great, model at a fair price with a smaller sensor.



Room - yes. Market - maybe not. Of course the 5d3 will drop some (Nikon D800 anyone?), so let's assume $3000. I don't think Canon marketing divides the price scale into equal pieces and puts out a model for each of them, but they'll look for customer groups like "entry level dslr" xxxd, "amateur/pro on a budget" xxd, "full frame entry" 5d2/successor, "rich amateur or pro that doesn't need the 1dx" 5d3. Where's the 7d2 in this?

But of course that's all pure speculation, that's the great thing about threads like these - it's hard to take them seriously. So: If there's already a super rebel xxd, why would there be the need for a giga rebel 7d2  ?


----------



## AnselA (Apr 12, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Tracy Pinto said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D Mark III is $3,500 - that creates plenty of pricing room for a lesser, but still great, model at a fair price with a smaller sensor.
> ...



You do know the "prosumer" 7D is still a very well selling model and that the Nikon D7000 is a hit.
That is what is known as a market and they both compete for it.

Canon, unlike you, will not yield any key market to Nikon. From the XXD (amateur/hobbyist) around $1200 to the 5D Mark III at $3,500 ( yes the price could come down or Nikon could raise theirs on the D800) there is just too much space (The 5D Mark II will necessarily be discontinued). Even if the XXD went up in price and the 5 D Mark III down, as you dream, the gap is still huge and many "prosumer" photographers can't jump it yet still want the latest features. Moving feature and specs to lesser models is the best method to keep buyers within the brand and upgrading to new gear.


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## dlleno (Apr 13, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Tracy Pinto said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D Mark III is $3,500 - that creates plenty of pricing room for a lesser, but still great, model at a fair price with a smaller sensor.
> ...



In my view, the market is for a "better than the xxd" upper-end 1.6 with high fps and BIF abilities, high shutter count, etc. with IQ improvements over the 7D. maybe in the $2K region. That's where the 7D series should be. Discontinue the xxd series. keep the rebels


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## JR (Apr 13, 2012)

I agree with the theory of making less model in the lineup and making each one of them richer in features to cater to a larger base of customer. Unfortunately, Canon is showing us with all the recent announcement they are not going this way...so dont expect rationalization of models like the 60D anytime soon I think.

my two cents..


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## ScottyP (Apr 13, 2012)

Tracy Pinto said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Tracy Pinto said:
> ...


Yes. Believe it or not, the 1.6 crop factor basically is THE thing many prosumers/enthusiasts want. Telephoto lenses are very, very expensive, and are something many non-pro photographers would not want to spend 7 thousand dollars on. ESPECIALLY if they had to buy the expensive telephoto JUST to recover length they lost by being FORCED to go full frame because your brand inexplicably quit making a high-quality crop body. Yes, you could enhance sensor resolution to allow for mightier and mightier crops in post, but who in the world would really want to photograph birds the size of a pepper flake in the viewfinder, even if they could actually go home and crop it up to fill the frame? 
If you don't have a high-quality crop frame available that a prosumer can "aspire to", then you lose out on a large and high-spending customer base. Just cast them aside and give them to Nikon. Or Sony.


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## V8Beast (Apr 13, 2012)

Any chance that the APS-H format sensor resurfaces in the 7D Mark II? That would be badass


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## dlleno (Apr 13, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> Any chance that the APS-H format sensor resurfaces in the 7D Mark II? That would be badass



true dat, but if Canon produces a new 1.3 it probably won't have a 7 in the name; it will be a 1D4 successor, imho. like others I can't figure out why there is a 7D AND a xxD


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## x-vision (Apr 13, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Tracy Pinto said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D Mark III is $3,500 - that creates plenty of pricing room for a lesser, but still great, model at a fair price with a smaller sensor.
> ...



+1000.


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## DrPizza (Apr 13, 2012)

I would be disappointed if there were no 7D2.

I have a 50D. I don't regard the 60D as a worthwhile upgrade (and I can't imagine I'm alone in this!) because of e.g. no AF microadjust, no joystick (!), slower firing rate, and concerns over how well it will take rough handling. The 7D is a decent upgrade, but not a big enough upgrade to be justified (which is no real surprise, the 7D came out half way through the 50D's life, they're more or less the same generation).

Unless Canon reverts to a single prosumer line (bring the x0D spec back up, and get rid of the 7D), I want a hypothetical 7D2: I don't really care about video, but more pixels and more low-light performance are both obviously desirable.

I have crop sensor lenses which I like, and would prefer to keep; full-frame approximate equivalents to the 17-55 EF-S and Tokina 11-16 would cost more than I'm willing to spend, and crop ultrawides are arguably better than full-frame. For someone like me (and I suspect the majority of crop owners) with no 35mm legacy, there's nothing particularly desirable about full frame _per se_. It's not like I have any intuition about how a 50mm lens "should" look. Full frame just means more expense. The idea that the 5D3 is somehow the logical upgrade, at more than double the cost of the 7D, and with no lens compatibility, is absurd.

There is room for a $1500 prosumer crop camera, and it's a market that surely makes sense.


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## D_Rochat (Apr 13, 2012)

dlleno said:


> V8Beast said:
> 
> 
> > Any chance that the APS-H format sensor resurfaces in the 7D Mark II? That would be badass
> ...



The 1d4 has a successor and it's called the 1Dx. So *IF* they were to use the APS-H again, it would likely be in a 7D or a new xD model. 

I've also seen people compare the D7000 to the 7D, which is fine. But the 60D is actually suppose to be in the same league as the D7000, not the 7D. Nikon just happened to make a stellar camera that stomped the 60D (IMO). I guess my point is that Canon needs to step it up with the xxD line and like I've said many times before, I won't be surprised to see the 70D take over for the 7D and actually compete with the D7000 or inevitable D7100. Especially since a new low cost FF is rumored to join the xD line. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I think the 7D name is getting the axe and the xxD will carry on as the prosumer option.


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## briansquibb (Apr 13, 2012)

aps-h
22mps
1dx style AF
10fps
1 series body and function (ie weatherproofing and f/8)
twin CF cards

$5000

would sit between the 5D3 and the 1DX


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## JR (Apr 13, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> aps-h
> 22mps
> 1dx style AF
> 10fps
> ...



Where can i pre-order? I like the spec you suggest!


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## unfocused (Apr 13, 2012)

> I don't think Canon marketing divides the price scale into equal pieces and puts out a model for each of them,



Umm...have you ever bought a television...a computer...any appliances...cars? Every manufacturer divides the market into price points. "You can get this TV for $500, but for $600 you get this. For $1,000 you can have this model..." 

Camera manufacturers are no different. They want models in as many price points as possible so they don't leave any customers on the table for the other guys. 



> There's increasing chatter in the Nikon camp that the D400 will be full-frame, not DX.



Nikon campers are as prone to fantasies as Canon campers. 



> I agree with the theory of making less model in the lineup and making each one of them richer in features to cater to a larger base of customer.



The beauty of modern manufacturing processes is that companies can afford to divide the marketplace into smaller, more focused segments. Instead of a Model T that comes only in black, you can customize your car right down to the sound system that it has in it. Plus, you can pick from multiple models with small variations. That's what makes it possible for Canon to offer astro-photographers their very own 60D.



> Any chance that the APS-H format sensor resurfaces in the 7D Mark II?



I'm trying to turn over a new leaf and not pick on the APS-H fans. 

My perspective though: it is the Beta-Max of sensors. Makes perfect sense from a quality standpoint, but the market didn't support it. Canon officially said that the 1Dx was replacing both 1D models, so many assume that means APS-H is dead. Canon spokespersons have backtracked a bit with comments like: "keeping our options open." 

I don't think we'll see it again. Others want to keep the hope alive. I'd be willing to place a pretty large wager though, that if it ever shows up again, it won't be in a 7DII. 

*Finally, *I've been trying to think of a good analogy. I'm no car person (forgive me V8 Beast) but I look at it this way. Some people want to buy the best possible small car available (the 7D) Others want the lowest-priced full-size sedan (5D II). Now Canon has come out with a mid-priced sedan (5D III). For the time-being they are still selling the full-size budget sedan, but we don't know yet if they will continue to meet that market segment.

Regardless of whether or not they produce a new version of the full-size budget sedan, it's not likely to have much impact on the market for those who prefer the best quality small car because those customers (me being one of them) are simply not interested in the budget sedan.


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## Chuck Alaimo (Apr 13, 2012)

I still think theres plenty of room for a pro or close to pro level crop body, which is what I see the niche of the 7D. the xxD series never was nor is a close to pro level series body. The current 7D is as close to pro level as we've seen in a crop body (unless you count the 1d4). The 2 factors that make it the good close to pro option - it does have good weather sealing, it does have AF micro-adjustments and its does boast a pretty high fps. The 60D messed up the potential for the xxd line if you ask me - that flip out screen is so gimmicky, but, it's real nice if your a smart phone photog person, makes ya feel like you are shooting on your smart phone and I don't have to look through that little viewfinder....To me, its just a silly add on that will break after more than average use. Let the xxd line be what it is, a nice uber rebel for the hobbyists and amatures with money to burn. But keep the 7D line running and step it up a notch. 

I like my 7D and feel that it can produce great images. By mid-summer I should also have a 5dmkiii as well. Not selling the 7D though, it will stay in my bag as the backup, or as the go to body for situations I don't want to risk the mkiii, or, for times i need a little extra reach out of my 70-200mm. The only reason I'd sell my 7D off is if I were to find myself in some sort of financial collapse, or ----if they were to release a 7d2. And in my mind, it wouldn't have to be a mind blowing revolutionary upgrade. All that really needs to be done is improve the noise in the 3200-6400 range, maybe bump the native ISO to 12800, not a deal breaker though if it stays at max of 6400 as long as 6400 becomes more usable, which if it had dual digic 5's i think that would cover any noise issues. fps, no change, its fast enough. Af doesn't need too much step it up to 41 points though if canon wants to grant the xxd line the old 7d AF. Do that and canon has a solid $1800-2000 body - which i do believe many people would jump on - not because its the omg gotta have this camera camera ---it will draw in the wow i want a 5d3 but can't shell out $3000+ on a body crowd. It would be a fine choose as a backup body for many who do have FF bodies. 

I personally think the only reason canon would phase out the 7D line is if they were to come out with an entry level FF body at around 2K (basically a slightly improved 5dmk2). the current jump in price from the xxd line to the 5d3 is just too steep. Something will need to fill that void (i am sure nikon and sony are looking at that void and wondering how many sales they can steal from canon with bodies between $1500-2500)...I don't see the xxd line filling that void - before the 60D maybe, but I really doubt many will jump at a $1700 70D with flip out screen....


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## Marsu42 (Apr 13, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> the xxD series never was nor is a close to pro level series body.



Many people still using a 40d for their profession would disagree with you here.



Chuck Alaimo said:


> The 60D messed up the potential for the xxd line if you ask me - that flip out screen is so gimmicky, but, it's real nice if your a smart phone photog person, makes ya feel like you are shooting on your smart phone and I don't have to look through that little viewfinder....To me, its just a silly add on that will break after more than average use.



You didn't use a 60d for an extended period of time, did you? Because what you wrote is exactly what I thought when I bought it - "pro bodies use a fixed screen, it has to be a gimmick". But I was wrong - actually, the screen is quite handy not only for video, but for some odd angle shots and tripod work with magic lantern's focus peaking (but you wouldn't know about magic lantern on a 7d...). And if it is not flipped at an angle it is as unlikely to break as your 7d screen, actually it's the other way around: If flipped back, the screen is protected.


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## !Xabbu (Apr 13, 2012)

dlleno said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Tracy Pinto said:
> ...



I agree - there should be lots of room for a high fps camera in the $2K-$2.5K region. $3.5K is quite a bit away from that and a significant hole in the purse for most people. On top of that there might be quite a lot of people who like the extra reach of a crop body with cheaper (i.e. shorter lenses).


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## V8Beast (Apr 13, 2012)

unfocused said:


> My perspective though: it is the Beta-Max of sensors. Makes perfect sense from a quality standpoint, but the market didn't support it. Canon officially said that the 1Dx was replacing both 1D models, so many assume that means APS-H is dead. Canon spokespersons have backtracked a bit with comments like: "keeping our options open.



I don't what care body Canon puts it in, but I'd just hate to see the APS-H sensor go away. Both full-frame and APS-C have tradeoffs, and often they're at extreme ends of the spectrum. The APS-H is just such a great balance between the two extremes. 

I'm curious why people imply that the market didn't like the APS-H sensor. My guess would be that Canon sold more 1D-series bodies than 1Ds-series bodies, but that's just a guess, since I'm not privy to the actual sales data. To me, the merging of the 1D and 1Ds into the 1Dx seems like Canon's response to the D3s. 

Did sports shooters and photo journalists using 1D-series bodies really ask for a FF body? Canon seems to be implying "yes" by forcing them into the 1Dx. I'd venture to say many of the were perfectly happy with crop bodies like the 1DIV and 7D.


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## unfocused (Apr 13, 2012)

> I'm curious why people imply that the market didn't like the APS-H sensor.



You could be right there. I don't have access to their sales figures, and I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that it was not a big seller with Canon. Also, the lack of any comparable product from Nikon led me to believe that Nikon didn't feel the market justified the investment.

And, the fact that Canon never produced any wide angle lenses targeted to the APS-H sensor gave me the feeling that it was a lower priority for them. 

Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against the APS-H sensor. I just don't see it as a replacement for the APS-C. 

I'm just reading tea leaves and speculating like everyone else here. And my speculation is that when Canon did a cost-benefit analysis for the APS-H sensor they determined the benefits didn't justify the costs. I think it's probably expensive to design and develop a sensor and its component technologies for only one body. I suspect that as technology advances, the marginal benefits of the APS-H sensor shrink (squeezed between the APS-C on one end and the Full Frame Sensor at the other).

Keep in mind that "good enough" technology almost always triumphs over great technology. That's why most people listen to compressed music files that are inferior to past recordings, why Betamax lost out to VHS, why the internal combustion engine triumphed over other technologies in the early 20th century, etc. etc.


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## D_Rochat (Apr 13, 2012)

I apologize for going off topic, but this has me reminiscing over failed formats. Who out there remembers the Laser Disc? Ha! good times.


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## V8Beast (Apr 13, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against the APS-H sensor. I just don't see it as a replacement for the APS-C.



Either do I. It's just that for selfish reasons, I'd love to see an APS-H sensor in a 7D2  If that ever happened, Canon would still sell tons of APS-C bodies in the xxD and Rebel lines. 

Considering that Nikon didn't even come out with an FF body until 2008, they were probably too embarrassed about to even think about developing a 1.3:1 sensor 



> Keep in mind that "good enough" technology almost always triumphs over great technology. That's why most people listen to compressed music files that are inferior to past recordings, why Betamax lost out to VHS, why the internal combustion engine triumphed over other technologies in the early 20th century, etc. etc.



That makes sense. I'm not a sports shooter so I can't speak on their behalf. Maybe they'll love the 1Dx, and won't mind spending an extra $1,800 over a 1D4, losing some reach, or having to buy longer lenses. However, if enough of them really don't want an FF body, and Canon busted out an APS-H 7D2, I presume that there'd be a lot of sales potential there. I see a lot more 1D2s, 3s, and 4s out in the wild than 1Ds 2s and 3s. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places. 

Even though I have full-frame bodies, IMHO the benefits of FF over APS-C are questionable for many shooters. An APS-H sensor makes those benefits even more questionable, but you still get some extra reach


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## dlleno (Apr 13, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against the APS-H sensor. I just don't see it as a replacement for the APS-C.
> ...



I'm sensing two distinct rumors, both based on the fact that Canon announced the fusion of 1D and 1Ds bodies. Some think this means they are abandoning the 1D4 (but not necessarily the 1.3) and some think this means they are abandoning the 1.3. If they are only abandoning the idea of a crop body with a "1" in the name (reserving that for FF pro) then we have an argument to put the 1.3 into the 7D, which then becomes the successor to the 1D4, not an elevated xxD. This would be BIG shift because it would mean serious BIFers would have to re-condition themselves to accept a body with a name larger than "1", the 7D price would be double or more, and the market would still be without the capability that the 7D was proven successful in (an upper tier 1.6x prosumer wildlife body). 

Thing is, xxD series is running out of names, and I can't see Canon producing both a 7D and a 70D at the same time. If the 7D remains in the line-up as a sports/BIF body, regardless of the sensor size, Canon will have to re-think the xxD marketing and call the 60D successor something besides 70D.


> > Keep in mind that "good enough" technology almost always triumphs over great technology. That's why most people listen to compressed music files that are inferior to past recordings, why Betamax lost out to VHS, why the internal combustion engine triumphed over other technologies in the early 20th century, etc. etc.


maybe -- for _recreational art content consumption _that is certainly true. but for _professional content creation_, the stakes are higher, and the competition stiffer. MP3 and VHS triumphed because they appealed to the consumer masses and the price was right. For a pro BIFer who wants to sell a prize shot to the discriminating aficionado , I'm not so sure the principle applies....


> That makes sense. I'm not a sports shooter so I can't speak on their behalf. Maybe they'll love the 1Dx, and won't mind spending an extra $1,800 over a 1D4, losing some reach, or having to buy longer lenses. However, if enough of them really don't want an FF body, and Canon busted out an APS-H 7D2, I presume that there'd be a lot of sales potential there. I see a lot more 1D2s, 3s, and 4s out in the wild than 1Ds 2s and 3s. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places.
> 
> Even though I have full-frame bodies, IMHO the benefits of FF over APS-C are questionable for many shooters. An APS-H sensor makes those benefits even more questionable, but you still get some extra reach



I'm not a pro BIFer either so I can't speak from any experience here, but I sense the important decision point for Canon is not whether or not to abandon the BIF body, it is what sensor to use. Maybe the benefits of H over C are also questionable, and the next high-performance wildlife pro body will be a 1.6! blasphemous I do realize: Can you imagine the pro BIFers accepting a body that could be mounted to an APS-C lens? That would take some serious marketing and messaging, not to mention a very clear technology statement of unprecedented pixel density. but I have to say that a 10fps, dual digic-5, 30-frame buffer, 1.6x sensor of the highest possible IQ/ISO/noise performance, weather sealed, dual card slots, etc. would be attractive. I just don't know if the 1.6 technology is up to it yet. Maybe Canon will pull a rabbit out of their hat, and give the pro wildlifer extra reach without compromising IQ. well, its amusing to consider anyway!


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## V8Beast (Apr 14, 2012)

How about this proposal: Canon comes out with an APS-H 7D2, and since it would obviously be more expensive than the prior model, the 70D would fill in the 7D's former price slot. Someone asked me why they should spend the extra money on a 60D over a Rebel a few months ago, and I couldn't come up with a good answer. A greater separation in features between the Rebel and xxD line couldn't hurt.


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## D_Rochat (Apr 14, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> How about this proposal: Canon comes out with an APS-H 7D2, and since it would obviously be more expensive than the prior model, the 70D would fill in the 7D's former price slot. Someone asked me why they should spend the extra money on a 60D over a Rebel a few months ago, and I couldn't come up with a good answer. A greater separation in features between the Rebel and xxD line couldn't hurt.



I like it. I know what's coming next though. Canon is not going to re-badge a 1D4 as a 7D2 and sell it for $2-2500. We could see the same or similar specs, just not in a 1D fully sealed body. Your idea seems reasonable though.


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## D.Sim (Apr 14, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> V8Beast said:
> 
> 
> > How about this proposal: Canon comes out with an APS-H 7D2, and since it would obviously be more expensive than the prior model, the 70D would fill in the 7D's former price slot. Someone asked me why they should spend the extra money on a 60D over a Rebel a few months ago, and I couldn't come up with a good answer. A greater separation in features between the Rebel and xxD line couldn't hurt.
> ...



Rebadged as a 3D/6D maybe? I'd seriously consider buying that...


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## smirkypants (Apr 14, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> How about this proposal: Canon comes out with an APS-H 7D2, and since it would obviously be more expensive than the prior model, the 70D would fill in the 7D's former price slot. Someone asked me why they should spend the extra money on a 60D over a Rebel a few months ago, and I couldn't come up with a good answer. A greater separation in features between the Rebel and xxD line couldn't hurt.


Seriously, if they put an a 22MP APS-H sensor with 8 FPS in a 5D3 body and kept everything else in the 5D3, I'd buy two.


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## RogerC (Apr 14, 2012)

I upgraded from a 40D to a 7D. I was impressed with how it dealt with processionals and recessionals at weddings. It made up for the disappointment I felt when I went from the 5D to the 5D2.

I see no need for a 7D2 at the moment. Hope they sort out the bugs soon on the 5D3.


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## !Xabbu (Apr 14, 2012)

RogerC said:


> I upgraded from a 40D to a 7D. I was impressed with how it dealt with processionals and recessionals at weddings. It made up for the disappointment I felt when I went from the 5D to the 5D2.
> 
> I see no need for a 7D2 at the moment. Hope they sort out the bugs soon on the 5D3.



I really don't understand why so many people feel that there is no need for progress. The 7D is everything but perfect. High ISO noise is not too good, dynamic range could be improved, it doesn't have the Digic V processor - of course you can take great pictures with it, but there is a lot of room for improvement.

I think that it is about time to improve the AF system of the 60D, which means that the 7D needs a significant improvement to have room above an improved 70D. From the reviews I read Nikon is significantly ahead especially in AF features and probably performance.


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## smirkypants (Apr 14, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> I really don't understand why so many people feel that there is no need for progress. The 7D is everything but perfect. High ISO noise is not too good, dynamic range could be improved, it doesn't have the Digic V processor - of course you can take great pictures with it, but there is a lot of room for improvement.
> 
> I think that it is about time to improve the AF system of the 60D, which means that the 7D needs a significant improvement to have room above an improved 70D. From the reviews I read Nikon is significantly ahead especially in AF features and probably performance.


+1
The IQ on the 7D is pretty mediocre and verging on bad given recent improvements in sensors. If you're used to an iPhone it's great, but it's behind the Nikon d7000 in image quality and dynamic range. 800 sees degradation and 1600 ISO starts to get really sketchy. Given that it's marketed as a sports enthusiasts camera, this really won't do. You need 1600 ISO to get high shutter speeds when it's cloudy, unless you're shooting f2.8.


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## V8Beast (Apr 14, 2012)

D_Rochat said:


> I like it. I know what's coming next though. Canon is not going to re-badge a 1D4 as a 7D2 and sell it for $2-2500. We could see the same or similar specs, just not in a 1D fully sealed body. Your idea seems reasonable though.



Nah, I wouldn't expect Canon to build such a body in a 1-series chassis. That would be crazy, although I certainly wouldn't complain if it happened  If the 7D2 has the same gripless form factor and similar weather sealing and build quality as the 7D and 5D3, that would be fine by me. Considering that many sports shooters already supplement their 1D4s with 7Ds, I can see a camera like this being wildly popular with both pros and enthusiasts. I know you can get stunningly good results with an APS-C sensor, but fitting an APS-H sensor into the 7D2 would allow Canon to easily address people's noise and IQ complaints of the 7D.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 14, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> but fitting an APS-H sensor into the 7D2 would allow Canon to easily address people's noise and IQ complaints of the 7D.



... while voiding all their investments in ef-s lenses and making them join a lynchmob to get Canon. Not all 7d users shoot sports or birds with tele ef lenses, many (at least the guys I see around) are your average well-off customer with a kit lens or maybe 17-55 & ef-s ultrawide. You don't need aps-h to get more iq (noise & dr), see Nikon d7000, released over a year ago.


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## V8Beast (Apr 14, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> ... while voiding all their investments in ef-s lenses and making them join a lynchmob to get Canon.



Not really. If the APS-H ever made it into the 7D2, Canon could just make the 70D the successor to 7D. An APS-H 7D2 would create a new niche. Between a 7D-like 70D and all the Rebel models, there would still be a huge market for EF-S lenses. In this scenario, if current 7D users don't like an APS-H 7D2, a 70D would fit their needs well. 

Plus, the xxD line has gotten a bit goofy with the 60D. It's more of a higher-priced Rebel than a successor to the 50D. A camera that's like the current 7D, but sold as a 70D, would create a clear distinction between the Rebel and xxD line.


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## dlleno (Apr 14, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> How about this proposal: Canon comes out with an APS-H 7D2, and since it would obviously be more expensive than the prior model, the 70D would fill in the 7D's former price slot. Someone asked me why they should spend the extra money on a 60D over a Rebel a few months ago, and I couldn't come up with a good answer. A greater separation in features between the Rebel and xxD line couldn't hurt.
> [/quote
> 
> I see the room for an upgraded 7D2, and without regards to what sensor might be used ,the marketing problem still exists: a 70D and a 7D at the same time? as for product differentiation, if Canon thinks there is room for three (7D, xxD, rebel) then 7D2 will have to be more than just an xxD with better focusing and fps. It will have to have some IQ advantage as well. While I'd prefer a 1.3 as you do, there might be room for three lines all at 1.6 -- if they can get the IQ up there. the problem with a 1.3 in a 7D2 is that the number 7 is too high


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## V8Beast (Apr 15, 2012)

dlleno said:


> I see the room for an upgraded 7D2, and without regards to what sensor might be used ,the marketing problem still exists: a 70D and a 7D at the same time? as for product differentiation, if Canon thinks there is room for three (7D, xxD, rebel) then 7D2 will have to be more than just an xxD with better focusing and fps. It will have to have some IQ advantage as well.



I agree 1000%.



> While I'd prefer a 1.3 as you do, there might be room for three lines all at 1.6 -- if they can get the IQ up there. the problem with a 1.3 in a 7D2 is that the number 7 is too high



OK, they can just call it a 6D  Canon hasn't yet proven that it can build a APS-C sensor that can go head to head with the D7000. If Canon does, then the APS-H talk is kinda pointless, but then again, stuffing a 1.3 sensor in the 7D2 wouldn't just match but stomp anything Nikon has to offer at that price point. 

On a side note, it's refreshing to be speculating on speculating on rumors for something other than the 5D3 for a change


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## !Xabbu (Apr 15, 2012)

V8Beast said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > I see the room for an upgraded 7D2, and without regards to what sensor might be used ,the marketing problem still exists: a 70D and a 7D at the same time? as for product differentiation, if Canon thinks there is room for three (7D, xxD, rebel) then 7D2 will have to be more than just an xxD with better focusing and fps. It will have to have some IQ advantage as well.
> ...



It seems to me like Canon is currently making a lot of money with their current line up. The 7D, 60D and 600D are more or less all the same camera just with different FPS, AF and micro adjust in the 7D. So, it seems to me that there is no marketing problem at all.

As to the APS-H sensor (and I know this might be a stupid question) - will it need a bigger body than the 7D currently has? I feel like most people don't want a brick like the 1D bodies and rather would go with something smaller like the 7D.

+1 to your side note - the 5D III is way out of my price range and hence it's cool to find some discussion around cameras, which I might be able to afford.


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## D.Sim (Apr 15, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> V8Beast said:
> 
> 
> > dlleno said:
> ...



If you can fit an FF sensor into a 5D body, a APSH sensor wouldnt need something *much* bigger than the 7D now. Remove the flash and you have even more space - what with not needing a capacitor.


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## briansquibb (Apr 15, 2012)

I wish that people would stop going on about people's investment in EF-S lens when they are considering upgrading. To hog tie yourself to a specific technology is to put a ceiling on what can be achieved – so why limit yourself to APS-C when it is clearly demonstrable that other technologies can deliver more. APS-C is a budget technology nowadays, technology has moved on and as photographers we should always be aiming for the best.

There is pretty much a consensus about the best glass on the body is the way to go. So people wanting to upgrade their bodies will almost certainly already have a collection of non EF-S lens. 

How many really top quality ef-s lens are there to really consider?

- 10-22
- 17-55
- 15-85

???

People upgrade because they want something better than they currently have. What is being discussed in this thread is the IQ improvement, specifically moving from APS-C to APS-H which would give an upgrade path from the current 7D to provide better IQ, better low light performance and higher fps - in other words a super sports body without going down the more expensive (for lens) ff route.

At the moment the lens technology is limiting us, from a budgetary point of view, from delivering a mid-range solution with full frame sensors to get the reach that many want for their photography. As said many times the 1.3 crop APS-H approach is a compromise solution, not the best in anything just very good all round. The 1.3 sensor is much cheaper to produce than ff, so it will be possible to continue for Canon to produce bodies in the price range of the 7D/5DII whilst delivering technological improvements – we already know it would be straight forward for them to deliver high mps sensors (40+)


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## Marsu42 (Apr 15, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> The 1.3 sensor is much cheaper to produce than ff, so it will be possible to continue for Canon to produce bodies in the price range of the 7D/5DII whilst delivering technological improvements



They certainly could - but why would they want to? They've got a nice split into an amateur and pro market and can deliver different strategies to them while having the ef-s barrier between them - that's why they made sure you cannot use ef-s on full frame, unlike Nikon dx/fx. As it stands, Canon gains from this split *because* there's no aps-h middle ground, but if you want to improve upon your aps-c sensor, you have to scrap your ef-s lenses and pay big money.



briansquibb said:


> How many really top quality ef-s lens are there to really consider?



You're forgetting the highly regarded Tokina 11-16 & Sigma 8-16, there are other things than Canon out there.



briansquibb said:


> APS-C is a budget technology nowadays, technology has moved on and as photographers we should always be aiming for the best.



Best pictures - yes. Best (i.e. highest) system price and largest cameras - no. If you wanted that, you probably wouldn't be writing here, but sitting behind your 50k$ middle format camera with some 10$k lenses.

I think aps-c is a budget technology because it's made a budget technology - it's still a larger sensor than most system cameras. And while it has the disadvantage of the smaller viewfinder, it does have some advantages over full frame: Easier to build quality ultrawides, smaller bodies because of the smaller mirror. The only point aps-c is so screwed is that the traditional 35mm film uses the so-said full frame format and ef lenses, but that's just a historic fact. With each upgraded sensor generation, for your usual shots there will be less and less need for full frame.


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## briansquibb (Apr 15, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > APS-C is a budget technology nowadays, technology has moved on and as photographers we should always be aiming for the best.
> ...



I have no issue with aps-c, what I am proposing is that Canon fill that ground that is currently being ignored ie the mid range that is between aps-c and ff and give the 7D owners a reasonably priced upgrade path


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## Marsu42 (Apr 15, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I have no issue with aps-c, what I am proposing is that Canon fill that ground that is currently being ignored ie the mid range that is between aps-c and ff and give the 7D owners a reasonably priced upgrade path



That's what I was writing about, too, and a question only Canon marketing looking at their sales stats and research could answer: Why offer a reasonably priced upgrade path if users will take the unreasonably priced one, too, if there is no other one available?

But I'm absolutely in favor of an aps-h model at a somewhat affordable price and would get it over a 7d any moment, but I just don't think it'll happen.


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## Musouka (Apr 15, 2012)

But what if the rumored $2K FF became a reality? Heck the 5D2 is currently selling at $2200.

Surely Canon won't be charging a similar price for an APS-H model, would they? The 7D BO debuted for $1700 and currently retails for around than $1550. Seeing the recent trends in Canon's pricing, a successor would most probably be priced at $1800-$2000.

Maybe that rumored FF is the upgrade path?


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## briansquibb (Apr 15, 2012)

5DII is hardly an upgrade for a sport aps-c where a good AF and fps is required

A aps-h with the same spec as the current 7D - but with the AF, IQ and high iso would be an attractive upgrade.

Think of the L lens Canon would start selling - and also ease the path for dual body ownership

The cost of the body is significantly smaller than the cost of the lens and other acessories


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## !Xabbu (Apr 15, 2012)

Musouka said:


> But what if the rumored $2K FF became a reality? Heck the 5D2 is currently selling at $2200.
> 
> Surely Canon won't be charging a similar price for an APS-H model, would they? The 7D BO debuted for $1700 and currently retails for around than $1550. Seeing the recent trends in Canon's pricing, a successor would most probably be priced at $1800-$2000.
> 
> Maybe that rumored FF is the upgrade path?



Yes, it's selling for $2.2K, but it has mediocre FPS and AF. I wouldn't pay that much money for a camera which will miss the shots in lots of situations. If someone is solely a landscape and studio photographer it is of course a great bargain.
However, I would much rather pay between $2K - $2.5K for an improved 7D with an APS-C sensor, which addresses the current issues - better high ISO performance, ... - and some other nice upgrades (like further improved AF, Digic V, ...)


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## Musouka (Apr 15, 2012)

Okay, I made a mistake by mentioning the 5D2 which made you concentrate on it : I apologize for the confusion.

I was mainly talking about the rumored entry level FF camera. Surely, it would have better AF than the current 5D2... maybe even the AF from the 7D. Well, let's wait and see if that ever happens.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 15, 2012)

Musouka said:


> I was mainly talking about the rumored entry level FF camera. Surely, it would have better AF than the current 5D2... maybe even the AF from the 7D. Well, let's wait and see if that ever happens.



If there ever is a successor to the 5d2 as an entry full frame body, Canon will make sure it retains a huge gap to the 5d3. And there aren't too many things that come into mind: Build quality for one, and then af. That's why I guess the entry ff will be a cheaper to produce, tuned down 5d2 with another name and the af of 60d line, not 7d.


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## takoman46 (Apr 16, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> 5DII is hardly an upgrade for a sport aps-c where a good AF and fps is required
> 
> A aps-h with the same spec as the current 7D - but with the AF, IQ and high iso would be an attractive upgrade.
> 
> ...



I realize there is a lot of concern with 7D owners not knowing what their future will hold in the fields of sport photography... but shouldn't one use a 1DX for sports photography? And if they can't afford a 1DX, the 5D Mark III is also seen as a viable alternative for sports shooting. Especially with another FF body being added to the line up at the entry-level, I don't know if there would be justification to have two more prosumer aps-c bodies above the rebel line. Additionally, they are adding a 1DC to the FF line up as well... So maybe they will still keep an expanded aps-c line around in the future. But at the 7D price point, I think we might be looking at an entry level FF rather than a 7D successor. Maybe the entry level FF will have a decent continuous shooting rate but take cuts on ISO, AF (maybe keeping a 19pt), and IQ and resolution. It might be called a 6D???...


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## briansquibb (Apr 16, 2012)

takoman46 said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > 5DII is hardly an upgrade for a sport aps-c where a good AF and fps is required
> ...



I am sure that the 1DX would manage for sports and at a pinch, birding. Not so sure that the 5DIII would be useful for anything more than occasional sports and birding use.

However we then get back to the issue of the lack of reach of a ff and the extra lens you need to achieve the same image.

The simple arithmetic shows that the 500mm:
- 1.6 gives 800mm equivalent
- 1.3 gives 650mm equivalent
- ff gives 500mm equivalent

I cannot imagine that a 7D owner with a 500mm used for birding would want an upgrade that would mean dropping $5k+ for the 1Dx and $10k+ for an 800 - just to take the same pictures. A 7D owner with a 600 would have nowhere to go.

It isn't even as if an 800 can be used with a 1.4 as the 1Dx doesn't support f/8 AF

The gap is very large between a 1.6 and a ff - what I am suggesting is that a 1.3 aps-h in a 5DIII shell would be an easy solution to help bridge that gap. It is proven (and good) technology that would give Canon a mid range sports shooter with significantly better IQ and low light performance than the 7D plus the proven potential to support significantly more mps.


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## dlleno (Apr 16, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> takoman46 said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



exactly, +1 on that. its hard to imagine Canon abandoning the the crop body for serious wildlife. I mean beyond the current xxD line which is basically an upscale rebel. Just because Canon's announcement implied that the 1D4 would rest, doesn't mean the 1.3 is going away or that Canon would abandon the pro level wildlife photographers. What form that will take is the question - I'm not convinced that will be a 7D2 but I would certainly cheer if it was! Speaking of upselling though -- a 1.3 7D would be quite an upsell for the recreational wildlifers. Do you see the 1D4 crowd migrating to a body named higher than 1?


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## briansquibb (Apr 16, 2012)

dlleno said:


> exactly, +1 on that. its hard to imagine Canon abandoning the the crop body for serious wildlife. I mean beyond the current xxD line which is basically an upscale rebel. Just because Canon's announcement implied that the 1D4 would rest, doesn't mean the 1.3 is going away or that Canon would abandon the pro level wildlife photographers. What form that will take is the question - I'm not convinced that will be a 7D2 but I would certainly cheer if it was! Speaking of upselling though -- a 1.3 7D would be quite an upsell for the recreational wildlifers. Do you see the 1D4 crowd migrating to a body named higher than 1?



I think if the specs were right then they would move - 3D sounds good. Imagine a 1D4 with 22mps - the video would be great as well.


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## smirkypants (Apr 17, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> I think if the specs were right then they would move - 3D sounds good. Imagine a 1D4 with 22mps - the video would be great as well.


Definitely. With the 5D3 there are plenty of former 1D-something users "downgrading." Most people who are sophisticated enough to buy a series 1 camera know enough to look at features not model numbers. How many studio photographers are really going to purchase a 1D something over a 5D3? The answer is, not that many. Just show me the specs and I can make up my mind. Hell, if it shot 8fps, a 1.6 crop and in all other ways matched the 5D3, I'd buy it even if it were named after a male sex organ.


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## briansquibb (Apr 17, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > I think if the specs were right then they would move - 3D sounds good. Imagine a 1D4 with 22mps - the video would be great as well.
> ...



History shows that many 1DS2 shooters moved to the 5DII instead of the 1DS3.

However the serious BIF shooters on the whole will go for the best rather than the cheapest


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## dlleno (Apr 17, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > exactly, +1 on that. its hard to imagine Canon abandoning the the crop body for serious wildlife. I mean beyond the current xxD line which is basically an upscale rebel. Just because Canon's announcement implied that the 1D4 would rest, doesn't mean the 1.3 is going away or that Canon would abandon the pro level wildlife photographers. What form that will take is the question - I'm not convinced that will be a 7D2 but I would certainly cheer if it was! Speaking of upselling though -- a 1.3 7D would be quite an upsell for the recreational wildlifers. Do you see the 1D4 crowd migrating to a body named higher than 1?
> ...



+1 the hesitancy might come if Canon really does abandon the 1.3 and a 1.6x 7D2 becomes the only wildlife body. But we haven't seen any real evidence that 1.3 is going away -- only that 1D and 1Ds are merging, which means a 1.3 could still appear in a different model. I like the 3D suggestion in fact. 

This would leave the 7D as the premium 1.6x wildlife body, and the xxD as the premium rebel. I have to admit, having suggested that 7D would be confusing with 70D, that 1D and 1Ds didn't seem to cause any undo discomfort, save the fact that they are merging now


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## !Xabbu (Apr 18, 2012)

dlleno said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > dlleno said:
> ...



It seems to me like Canon is nowhere close to the limit of APS-C sensors. Nikon's equivalent sensors give better high ISO noise, more dynamic range and overall higher quality than the Canon equivalent.

It's like the D800 - a lot of people would have said that you need an MF camera to get such good image quality, but better technology proofed them wrong. I believe that advances in APS-C technology will be able to bring the IQ closer to today's FF sensors.


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## briansquibb (Apr 18, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> It seems to me like Canon is nowhere close to the limit of APS-C sensors. Nikon's equivalent sensors give better high ISO noise, more dynamic range and overall higher quality than the Canon equivalent.
> 
> It's like the D800 - a lot of people would have said that you need an MF camera to get such good image quality, but better technology proofed them wrong. I believe that advances in APS-C technology will be able to bring the IQ closer to today's FF sensors.



Just remember that the Nikon APS-C has a bigger sensor than Canon

D800 is nowhere near a MF yet - rather like saying the a crop gives as good image quality as ff. High mps does not directly equate to high IQ


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## stilscream (Apr 18, 2012)

Nikon uses 1.5 crop vs 1.6 Canon uses, so larger sensor creates the differences in ISO noise reduction.


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## !Xabbu (Apr 18, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> !Xabbu said:
> 
> 
> > It seems to me like Canon is nowhere close to the limit of APS-C sensors. Nikon's equivalent sensors give better high ISO noise, more dynamic range and overall higher quality than the Canon equivalent.
> ...



OK, I wasn't aware of that - however, it seems like Nikon gets better IQ out of their 1.5 crop than Canon did out of FF -> see http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon_EOS_5D_Mark_II-vs-Nikon_D7000. 

So, crop apparently already caught up with older FF.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 18, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> however, it seems like Nikon gets better IQ out of their 1.5 crop than Canon did out of FF. So, crop apparently already caught up with older FF.



I wouldn't really cite a computer generated comparison as a reliable source :-o ... esp. I really doubt the advantage of the d7000 in dynamic range (at which iso???) because it seems you can recover more dr out of Canon raw files than from Nikon. The noise comparison doesn't say what iso they tested or how it was averaged, that could have given you some doubt...


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## unfocused (Apr 18, 2012)

Nikon Rumors is reporting that the D3200 will be announced within the next 24 hours, with a 24 mp sensor. This is, of course, a Rebel equivalent. 

Canon likes to hand down sensor technology from the top of the line (7D) to the lower levels. Nikon seems to be less concerned about that. Honestly, I'm not excited about a 24mp sensor (I'd rather Canon stick with 18-20 mp and improve ISO and dynamic range), but given the rave reviews that the D800 seems to be getting, it will be interesting to see how this 24mp sensor performs in comparison to Canon's current APS-C sensor. 

Competition is good, so it will be fun to see how Canon reacts. I don't anticipate a new 7D until Photokina. This will give Canon at least four months to dissect the new Nikon sensor and figure out how to best it. I'm hoping Nikon has really raised the bar. 

I can't wait to see how much APS-C sensor technology has advanced since the release of the 7D nearly three years ago. This new Nikon should give us an idea about that.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 18, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Nikon Rumors is reporting that the D3200 will be announced within the next 24 hours, with a 24 mp sensor. This is, of course, a Rebel equivalent.



I really hope this gives "double the price for everything" Canon such a kick in the a** that they either quit the race or get a grip - a affordable full frame successor to the 5d2 might be a good start, and I recently read in this forum that Canon's techs seem to have something in mind if the d800 keeps selling.


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## !Xabbu (Apr 18, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> !Xabbu said:
> 
> 
> > however, it seems like Nikon gets better IQ out of their 1.5 crop than Canon did out of FF. So, crop apparently already caught up with older FF.
> ...



The computer generated comparison uses DxO results as a basis for the analysis. Many people seem to consider DxO to be a reliable source. DR will most likely be done at ISO 100 and a better RAW file format doesn't replace a better sensor. Anyway, my point is that we'll definitely see an APS-C sensor in - let's say 5 years - that will have a much better performance than for example the 5D II.

Overall, I believe that a modern APS-C is already much better than an old FF (like for example the 5D) - and this development will keep on going.


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## briansquibb (Apr 18, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> Overall, I believe that a modern APS-C is already much better than an old FF (like for example the 5D) - and this development will keep on going.



I would put my 1Ds3 up against a 7D - especially at iso1600


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## Marsu42 (Apr 18, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> Anyway, my point is that we'll definitely see an APS-C sensor in - let's say 5 years - that will have a much better performance than for example the 5D II.



No doubt at all about this - actually, this is what I've been saying again and again. The only question is how much the ff technology advances at the same time and if it is able to keep the distance to aps-c in noise and dynamic range and if the cpu tech in 5 years will allow your average ff body to take pictures with 10fps, too.

For the average photog, I think the point has been already reached when a ff sensor does not deliver any serious advantage for your average shots at ok lighting. When I recover highlights from raw (that's why I have insisted on this) and shoot at up to iso 400, I can hardly say anything negative about the iq from my 60d and there are very few shots in between when I find it really lacking.


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## dlleno (Apr 18, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Nikon Rumors is reporting that the D3200 will be announced within the next 24 hours, with a 24 mp sensor. This is, of course, a Rebel equivalent.
> 
> Canon likes to hand down sensor technology from the top of the line (7D) to the lower levels. Nikon seems to be less concerned about that. Honestly, I'm not excited about a 24mp sensor (I'd rather Canon stick with 18-20 mp and improve ISO and dynamic range), but given the rave reviews that the D800 seems to be getting, it will be interesting to see how this 24mp sensor performs in comparison to Canon's current APS-C sensor.
> 
> ...



+1. I think Canon is getting serious wake up call and swift kick in the pants from the competition. A high-performance 1.6 would be awesome. Because of pixel density I don't see the 1.6 ever approaching the larger sensors in noise/ISO at least at the same technology cycle. But as the technology improves, all formats will benefit. Rather than handing stuff down, though it seems the other way to me: what they learn in the crops appears in the larger sensors at lower pixel densities with improved IQ.


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## briansquibb (Apr 18, 2012)

dlleno said:


> +1. I think Canon is getting serious wake up call and swift kick in the pants from the competition. A high-performance 1.6 would be awesome. Because of pixel density I don't see the 1.6 ever approaching the larger sensors in noise/ISO at least at the same technology cycle. But as the technology improves, all formats will benefit. Rather than handing stuff down, though it seems the other way to me: what they learn in the crops appears in the larger sensors at lower pixel densities with improved IQ.



So back to the 30mps 1.3 which would frighten Noink


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## unfocused (Apr 18, 2012)

> Rather than handing stuff down, though it seems the other way to me: what they learn in the crops appears in the larger sensors at lower pixel densities with improved IQ.



Sorry, imprecise writing on my part. 

I just meant that Canon tends to introduce its latest and greatest sensors in the most expensive bodies and then hand that sensor down to less expensive. 7D to 60D to T3i for example. I agree that they are no doubt using what they learn with smaller sensor technologies and applying those lessons to bigger sensors. In fact, I suspect that the APS-C sensor has benefited from lessons learned in the point and shoots.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 18, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I just meant that Canon tends to introduce its latest and greatest sensors in the most expensive bodies and then hand that sensor down to less expensive. 7D to 60D to T3i for example.


I thought so, too, until I was told better - and now I can correct you  ... the 18mp sensor was 7d to t2i to 60d to t3i (see http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html#canon_age_chart) and before that, Canon introduced new sensors not only "trickle down" but when it suited them marketing-wise or they had the tech ready to go.


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## dlleno (Apr 19, 2012)

yea with three different 1.6x crop bodies they have a lot of choices and can put a given sensor in whatever body that makes sense to their bottom line. I'm more interested, not so much in which part number appears in which body (although that is interesting, to be sure) , but what is the technology lifecycle of the sensor in the body and how the technology learnings cross the C-H-FF boundaries. With the volumes of 1.6x bodies flying off the shelves Canon has a good proving ground for studying the artifacts of pixel density,and then to apply those learnings to the larger sensors.


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## Jettatore (Apr 19, 2012)

It's not quite 3 years old yet, getting there, but it's closer to 2.4 years old. There are a few things that can be improved on it, but as it sits it's an amazing camera. I would want for an upgraded sensor (ISO, low light, low noise performance + IQ upgrade would be much preferred over higher MP) as well as a 3rd dial that can be dedicated to ISO without pushing a button first, this would leave the back wheel and two top dials so you can more quickly have full manual control. I would want it to stay as a 1.6x crop. SD+CF slots like the new 5DIII would be a plus but not altogether nessicary. Ability to use it with something like Magic Lantern hacks would be a big benefit for video as well as people capable of writing custom macro scripts for automating complex routines and swapping between complex profiles, otherwise including some of the intelligent features for video that are in the 5DIII or the 5DII+Hack. 

Also for the love of Bob, don't put that stupid mode lock dial on it like is on the 5DIII. I have never once accidentally knocked that dial and the lock gets in the way of quickly switching between Custom C modes. (that's actually the only thing I don't like about the new 5DIII) The 7D mode dial is built like a rock and just stays put unless you move it.

None of this is enough for me to want for a replacement right now so if they take their time in releasing it, fine, if they release it tomorrow and it's as good of an upgrade as it should be, that's fine too, I'll just wait on buying it. I would take a 7DII over a potential 70D if the current 7D and current 60D are any indication of where those upgraded models would sit the cameras in the Canon product line.


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## D.Sim (Apr 19, 2012)

Jettatore said:


> Also for the love of Bob, don't put that stupid mode lock dial on it like is on the 5DIII. I have never once accidentally knocked that dial and the lock gets in the way of quickly switching between Custom C modes. (that's actually the only thing I don't like about the new 5DIII) The 7D mode dial is built like a rock and just stays put unless you move it.



I actually thought that way too... but there have been a few times I've ended up in A-Dep instead of M and missed a shot. I hate A-Dep, would be nice if I could have another custom function in its place =(


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## Jettatore (Apr 19, 2012)

Yeah, a button to replace mode dial, and then use one of the wheels to switch through a customizable/re-orderable list of customs and presets, but that might not be as fast as a mode dial without a lock unless maybe they took on the concept of sticky keys (hold the mode button, while spinning the wheel, and when you let go of the button your choice gets selected and you are back to where you were before you pressed the button) and as an alternate function, if you just press and release the button, it would act much like pressing the ISO button does now, you move the wheel and then wait for time out or tap another button (shutter) to confirm. I don't like "B" in between manual and the 3 custom dials either. Would be nice if we could custom order or customize our equipment or for those who don't need that fall back on a well thought out default design. Open source camera specs and devs for the win, but that'll probably be a while...


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## Chuck Alaimo (Apr 19, 2012)

exact opposite, I have had the dial switch on me. First time it happened I thought the cam was broken. But in fact, the dial had gone from m to bulb! I hate having to double check where the mode dial is, which is what i do now. Granted, its only happened a few times. But still, I'd rather have to deal with unlocking the dial than always making sure its on M like I want it to be


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## Jettatore (Apr 20, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> exact opposite, I have had the dial switch on me. First time it happened I thought the cam was broken. But in fact, the dial had gone from m to bulb! I hate having to double check where the mode dial is, which is what i do now. Granted, its only happened a few times. But still, I'd rather have to deal with unlocking the dial than always making sure its on M like I want it to be



For those that have this issue, I can perfectly understand. However, I would prefer the ability to unlock the lock so that when I don't want it, it doesn't get in the way. To me, this would solve for both wants/needs. Again, this isn't a deal breaker for me. But if given the option, I'd send in the machine to have the lock removed, much like they allow you to send in a 5DII or 7D to have the lock added (or who knows, maybe I'd get used to it), either way it wouldn't effect my decision to purchase. I bet they will offer this, but with all the back orders/delays I bet it isn't high on their priority list atm, just a guess.


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## solarpos (Apr 20, 2012)

I have set my C3 to mimic my classic all purpose M settings this way I spin the dial all the way and it takes out any margin of error.


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## Jettatore (Apr 20, 2012)

solarpos said:


> I have set my C3 to mimic my classic all purpose M settings this way I spin the dial all the way and it takes out any margin of error.



That's a good strategy. But if you make any changes to the base Custom setting and don't re-register it, and dial to another setting and then back, you go back to the defaults you registered, not the temporary adjustments you may have made. Manual doesn't do this, it stays to whatever you last left it at without any registration process. Manual is 4 clicks down from the top. Another approach, if it's too dark to see without a flashlight or you're moving fast and have to look where your going/shooting, spin the dial clockwise to the end then dial it counter-clockwise 4 clicks.


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## kubelik (Apr 23, 2012)

interesting idea to set the C3 to mimic Manual mode, I may have to try that. I am constantly knocking my mode dial on my 5D Mark II onto Bulb which is pretty irritating, especially for urban shooting where you want to snag a specific, fleeting moment.


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## Musouka (Apr 24, 2012)

Canon will be more than happy to install a Mode Dial Lock in your 7D/5D2 as long as you show them that shiny new Benjamin (and can live without the camera for about a week) ;D

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_7d?pageKeyCode=prdAdvDetail&docId=0901e02480245968

Some say that the Lock on the 60D is a pain because you have to remember pressing the button when changing modes lest you break the little round thingy. I just learned to check the mode before shooting. Maybe the placement of the On/Off button is a bit unfortunate and would cause you to change the setting in the rush of things.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 24, 2012)

Musouka said:


> Some say that the Lock on the 60D is a pain because you have to remember pressing the button when changing modes lest you break the little round thingy.



Obviously I'm not part of "some" because I don't have any issues pressing the lock when rotating on my 60d. Of course it would be easier w/o it, but seeing the complaints of some  5d2/7d users which made even Canon act says me I should be happier with the lock than without it.

However, I can say one thing: To break the lock, you have to have the coordination of a green Hulk just after a transformation or have to have taken the wrong drugs or too much of them.


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## Albi86 (Apr 24, 2012)

IMHO it's a wrong mentality to consider APS-C as the poor, mutilated brother of FF.

Crop sensor cameras offer longer reach and deeper DOF, which are very useful for many applications. Lens usually behaves better, especially as far as border performance is concerned, due to the sweet spot effect. Also lenses designed for crop sensors are cheaper and quite well performing:
Canon 15-85 is 30% cheaper than Canon 24-105
Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 is 35% cheaper than Sigma 24-70 f/2.8
... and so on. And all of these are very good lenses within their scopes. Most of people just buy a fast prime for portraits and other shallow dof applications. Nikon has even launched a variety of cheap yet good fast primes designed for APS-C. So basically for most users a FF is a very bad deal.

Furthermore, as many Pros as there could be, amateurs will always be more, and crop cameras are way cheaper. I guess Canon (as most companies) gets the most of its income from the lowest segments of market, which means point-and-shoot and consumer reflex cameras. In the last years we've seen the 550D bring few relevant upgrades to the 500D, then the 600D bringing even fewer to the 550D. Now Canon has the 650D on top of its priorities, and IMHO it's a consequence of the fact they've already lost the 1100D vs D3200 battle. Canon cares the least about 7000$ cameras, as they are the thinnest slice of the market, and this is why we get a new one every every 4 years instead of every 2. It's more a matter of showing muscles than of real income forecasts.

So what I mean is: crop sensor cameras are a market of their own, and all but secundary.

Nikon D7000 can rival the 7D in many aspects, yet being considerably cheaper. Canon 60D is no match, so what happened? You got a 60Da. Now we're getting a new firmware for 7D which adds new features. The question arises rather spontaneously: why at this time? Why didn't they do it sooner? It sounds a lot like "We're still alive".

Now that they have used DigicV even for the new PowerShot cameras, I think they cannot delay a refresh of the 60D/7D line too much. I am very excited because I know they'll have to beat the D7000, which is already quite an impressive camera at a very sweet price. But I also think they're having a hard time in doing so.


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## dlleno (Apr 24, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> IMHO it's a wrong mentality to consider APS-C as the poor, mutilated brother of FF.



maybe I'm not paying attention but I haven't seen much emphasis on 1.6x in this way. I consider the crop bodies as the basis of Canons's technonolgy progression and even market segmentation tests. Thats where they can push the pixel density envelope, and translate those learnings into the FF world.


> Crop sensor cameras offer longer reach and deeper DOF, which are very useful for many applications. Lens usually behaves better, especially as far as border performance is concerned, due to the sweet spot effect. Also lenses designed for crop sensors are cheaper and quite well performing:
> Canon 15-85 is 30% cheaper than Canon 24-105
> Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 is 35% cheaper than Sigma 24-70 f/2.8
> ... and so on. And all of these are very good lenses within their scopes.



yes, but I think the key here is "within their scopes". The 15-85 is really not even in the same league as the 24-105 L, in terms of build quality, weather sealing, etc, and the finer points of IQ, i.e. CA and distortion. Yes there are some well-performing "C" lenses (15-85 and 17-55 are notables), and yes Canon has found ways to cut corners and still provide good IQ at reasonable cost that is accepted in the APS-C marketplace. A portion of this "value proposition" does come from the reduced image circle but some of it also comes from the way in which the lens is manufactured, not to mention the target market and economies of scale.


> So what I mean is: crop sensor cameras are a market of their own, and all but secundary.


 Morever, were it not for the announced merge of 1D and 1Ds, and the ensuing speculation that "H" itself is dead, I think the 7D rumor mill would not be nearly so interesting -- the 7D2 would be just be another incremental improvement in a prosumer wildlife body. However, the question still in my mind is "what will Canon do with the 1D market? will the 1.3x sensor emerge in another body (even the 7D2) or will Canon's top-tier crop body be a 1.6x?


> Now that they have used DigicV even for the new PowerShot cameras, I think they cannot delay a refresh of the 60D/7D line too much. I am very excited because I know they'll have to beat the D7000, which is already quite an impressive camera at a very sweet price. But I also think they're having a hard time in doing so.



It does appear that Canon has their compeititive work cut out for them on the sensor side, to be sure, and I don't think there are even any amusing prevarications, much less credible rumors, suggesting the demise of APS-C. Moreover, to add to your excitement, if APS-H is really dead, then this places all the more emphasis (it seems to me) on an upper-tier weather-sealed crop body (more "1D-like") which could be a 1.6x 7D2. and while we're speculating, the presence of such a body will strengthen the need for high-quality wide angle APS-C lenses. they might even create a name for them.


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## briansquibb (Apr 24, 2012)

Albi86 said:


> Canon 15-85 is 30% cheaper than Canon 24-105



Not exactly a like for like comparison


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## unfocused (Apr 24, 2012)

> ...were it not for the announced merge of 1D and 1Ds, and the ensuing speculation that "H" itself is dead, I think the 7D rumor mill would not be nearly so interesting -- the 7D2 would be just be another incremental improvement in a prosumer wildlife body. However, the question still in my mind is "what will Canon do with the 1D market?



Yes, this is what makes the speculation (and it is all speculation at this point) interesting. I tend to believe the APS-H really is dead, squeezed out by the ever-shrinking space between APS-C and Full-Frame. 



> I am very excited because I know they'll have to beat the D7000, which is already quite an impressive camera at a very sweet price. But I also think they're having a hard time in doing so.



I too was very excited initially by the D7000 announcement. But, then someone pointed out that Nikon may be simply recycling the Sony 24 mp sensor, which seems to be a fairly weak performer. If that's the case, Canon may not have too much to worry about. I would like to think that sensor technology has advanced over the past three years and that the 7DII will be a top performing APS-C sensor that matches the quality formerly seen in the APS-H sensor. 

It doesn't take much of a leap to imagine a Canon 7DX: APS-C sensor performing at the level of the 1D APS-H sensor, improved weather-sealing, improved auto-focus and a one-piece gripped body. Taken individually, these are all low-cost incremental improvements, and there is no reason that this could not be done for well south of $2,400. But if they did that, what a game-changer it would be.


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## dlleno (Apr 24, 2012)

unfocused said:


> It doesn't take much of a leap to imagine a Canon 7DX: APS-C sensor performing at the level of the 1D APS-H sensor, improved weather-sealing, improved auto-focus and a one-piece gripped body. Taken individually, these are all low-cost incremental improvements, and there is no reason that this could not be done for well south of $2,400. But if they did that, what a game-changer it would be.



no kidding. and they need to do it in 2012. The biggest factor that would compromise this effort is if Canon trully continues to lag behind in sensor technology and fails to deliver a game changing 1.6x sensor. I hope they have something up their sleeve though, as it is time for the next technology cycle to emerge, it seems to me. I would hope that, reading the market, they would price it as you suggested (5D3 pricing leaves room for just such a body) instead of the 1D4 price category


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## briansquibb (Apr 24, 2012)

unfocused said:


> Yes, this is what makes the speculation (and it is all speculation at this point) interesting. I tend to believe the APS-H really is dead, squeezed out by the ever-shrinking space between APS-C and Full-Frame.



The ratio is still 1.6, 1.3 and 1 between the sensors. The IQ of the 1.6 has not got close to the 1.3 yet - and we know the 1.3 can be developed a lot further. Whether Canon develop the 1.3 is rather more management than a technical decision


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## Musouka (Apr 24, 2012)

An APS-H body is difficult to position unless Canon came up with a way to make it work with EF-S lenses (and get some pretty good results) so I find that quite unlikely.

Seeing how things are going at the moment, I would say we will have to first see a new Rebel and the D400 from Nikon before we can expect a 7D Part II or a 70D.


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## dlleno (Apr 24, 2012)

Musouka said:


> An APS-H body is difficult to position unless Canon came up with a way to make it work with EF-S lenses (and get some pretty good results) so I find that quite unlikely.



why would it be more difficult to position now as opposed to how they have positioned "H" along side "C" since 2003?


> Seeing how things are going at the moment, I would say we will have to first see a new Rebel and the D400 from Nikon before we can expect a 7D Part II or a 70D.



Except for the 1Ds, the 7D has now (approximately) equaled or surpassed the market life of any digital EOS body in the 12 year history of digital EOS. It is the oldest APS-C body currently being sold, and with every passing month breaks new records for the longest market life of any Canon APS-C body. Just now surpassing 2.5 years old, the 7D is 1.5 years older than the current Rebels, and nearly a year older than the 60D which uses the same sensor.

The 60D itself is now about 2 years old, surpassing the market life of any xxD body Canon has ever sold.

Given how well Nikon played the marketing game with the D800, one wonders if Canon isn't planing a few surprises of its own later in 2012. I can't imagine Canon lasting much longer in the prosumer wildlife body market without a 7D update, and indeed without telegraphing a clear direction, the pro wildlife market (currently served by the 1D4) is on interesting territory as well, imho.


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## briansquibb (Apr 24, 2012)

dlleno said:


> Musouka said:
> 
> 
> > An APS-H body is difficult to position unless Canon came up with a way to make it work with EF-S lenses (and get some pretty good results) so I find that quite unlikely.
> ...



5DII is still being sold so that is older than the 7D

I believe the 40D was marketed for nearly 3 years? It was still being sold when the 50D came out


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## dlleno (Apr 24, 2012)

The 7D may continue to be sold after it is updated, as well.


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## Musouka (Apr 25, 2012)

dlleno said:


> Musouka said:
> 
> 
> > An APS-H body is difficult to position unless Canon came up with a way to make it work with EF-S lenses (and get some pretty good results) so I find that quite unlikely.
> ...



Okay, I should have said "an APS-H 7D2 is difficult to position." 

The last APS-H (the 1DIII) was targeting a different segment. It was also a $3.5K-$4K body. Granted, if Canon were to release a new APS-H body, it would probably be around $2.5K. However, I think they would be better off with a different model number. Current 7D owners with EF-S glass might expect to keep using it. 

Then again, I could be wrong.


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## briansquibb (Apr 25, 2012)

Musouka said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > Musouka said:
> ...



The last aps-h is the 1D4 and it is still available.

Personally although the 1DX is stated to replace both the 1D4 and the 1Ds3, I believe the 1DX is only the replacement to the 1D4 leaving room for a high mp model (3D?)

I think the aps-h version of the 7D would have to be called something else - maybe 6D - to show it is a 7D upgrade. 

Imagine full blown sports model in a 7D sized body, 10 fps, pro AF, 30 RAW image buffer, and native iso to 25600 which is very clean to 6400. Selling at $2000 it would take the market place by storm.


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## kdsand (Apr 25, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Musouka said:
> 
> 
> > Some say that the Lock on the 60D is a pain because you have to remember pressing the button when changing modes lest you break the little round thingy.
> ...



That a good point.
I may not be green but I have to be careful not to break things like hardened bolts on my Jeeps, yet I can't imagine breaking that switch even intentionally. ???


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## ramon123 (Apr 25, 2012)

Earliest would be Photokina 2012 but could be early March 2013 like the 5D Mark III.


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## !Xabbu (Apr 25, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, this is what makes the speculation (and it is all speculation at this point) interesting. I tend to believe the APS-H really is dead, squeezed out by the ever-shrinking space between APS-C and Full-Frame.
> ...



There are quite a few Nikon crop sensor cameras, which have the same or better IQ than a 5D II and certainly better than the original 5D. Yes, regarding high ISO noise a bigger sensor with the same technology might still have an edge, but overall crop sensors are getting closer to the IQ of FF. Just look at the image quality of the G1 X, where a lot of people would have said that this IQ is impossible to get from a compact camera (at least a few years ago).


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## briansquibb (Apr 25, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> Yes, regarding high ISO noise a bigger sensor with the same technology might still have an edge, but overall crop sensors are getting closer to the IQ of FF. Just look at the image quality of the G1 X, where a lot of people would have said that this IQ is impossible to get from a compact camera (at least a few years ago).



Closer maybe - but close? Not even in sight for either IQ or noise


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## Ronnie (Apr 26, 2012)

What the EOS 7D mark II needs is AF when taking video, 1080p with 60 fps, 10 fps stills, better IQ and ISO with the same MP crop sensor, flip out screen with an LED screen in stead of the LCD, SD and CF card other wise the same as now. 
Canon can that be so difficult?


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## dlleno (Apr 26, 2012)

Ronnie said:


> What the EOS 7D mark II needs is AF when taking video, 1080p with 60 fps, 10 fps stills, better IQ and ISO with the same MP crop sensor, flip out screen with an LED screen in stead of the LCD, SD and CF card other wise the same as now.
> Canon can that be so difficult?



"better IQ and ISO with the same MP crop sensor" may be mutually exclusive. Unless here you mean a brand new updated sensor with the same 18mp -- THAT would indeed give some IQ improvement. on the flip screen -- well thats an interesting one. to me it depends on which direction Canon wants to take the 7D. if it moves more towards a premier wildlife body (especially if 1.3 is really dead) then its hard to imagine a flip screen on a weather sealed BIF body. But indeed the flip screen is part of the intrigue here: will it remain part of the xxD line or will it spill over into the 7D.


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## Dart23 (Apr 26, 2012)

Would this be possible in a 7d2? 
An APS-H with an improved (low light, smaller lens gap) sensor in the 22-24mp range. It can also accept EF-S lenses, but then the sensor capture is scaled back to 1.6 crop at 18mp or so. 
Yes - constant AF for video too...


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## KeithR (Apr 26, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> Closer maybe - but close? Not even in sight for either IQ or noise



_Stiull_ not true, no matter how many times you say it - the 7D is already better than quite a few FF bodies that have gone before: it's surely better than the 5D, is as close to the 5D Mk II as makes no appreciable difference whatsoever, and knocks the older FF pro bodies out of the ring.


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## dlleno (Apr 26, 2012)

Dart23 said:


> Would this be possible in a 7d2?
> An APS-H with an improved (low light, smaller lens gap) sensor in the 22-24mp range. It can also accept EF-S lenses, but then the sensor capture is scaled back to 1.6 crop at 18mp or so.
> Yes - constant AF for video too...



well .... first of all it would require 27mp at the APS-H size to crop down to 18mp at the APS-C size. But perhaps more importantly, APS-H has never been compatible with lenses made for APS-C, and if you arbitrarily crop a 1.3x sensor to 1.6x size "in camera" then there is no benefit to the 1.3 and you might as well put a cheeper APS-C sensor in there. Sadly the market will probably demand 24mp in the next 1.6x 7D which will probabaly swamp the ISO gains that would have been attained with new sensor technology. Thats pretty amazing pixel density, equivalent to to over 60mp in a FF


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## briansquibb (Apr 26, 2012)

KeithR said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > Closer maybe - but close? Not even in sight for either IQ or noise
> ...



Sure I am sure the 7D is better than the 1DS - but the 1Ds3, 1Dx and the 5DIII are out of sight of the 7D


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## iaind (Apr 26, 2012)

If they brought out a 7dII with a crop sensor approx 24-28mb and specs equal to 5dIII for $500 less would you buy it?


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## briansquibb (Apr 26, 2012)

iaind said:


> If they brought out a 7dII with a crop sensor approx 24-28mb and specs equal to 5dIII for $500 less would you buy it?



If the IQ was good enough - then sure as I am not wedded to a technology. It would make a good sports camera if it managed 10+fps


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## Ronnie (Apr 27, 2012)

What the EOS 7D mark II needs is AF when taking video, 1080p with 60 fps, 10 fps stills, better IQ and ISO with the same MP crop sensor, flip out screen with an LED screen in stead of the LCD, SD and CF card other wise the same as now. 
Canon can that be so difficult? 




"better IQ and ISO with the same MP crop sensor" may be mutually exclusive. Unless here you mean a brand new updated sensor with the same 18mp -- THAT would indeed give some IQ improvement. on the flip screen -- well thats an interesting one. to me it depends on which direction Canon wants to take the 7D. if it moves more towards a premier wildlife body (especially if 1.3 is really dead) then its hard to imagine a flip screen on a weather sealed BIF body. But indeed the flip screen is part of the intrigue here: will it remain part of the xxD line or will it spill over into the 7D. 

Yes off cause. Your are right. We need at brand new sensor. But we DONT need more MP. And the technnology is so sofisticated now a days, that you can make af crop sensor with 18MP with a LOT BETTER IQ and ISO performance. And that's what we need, not just more MP! And AF while takning movie ! !


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## dlleno (Apr 27, 2012)

assuming that the trade-offs between IQ and MPs remain as they did when the 18MP 1.6x sensor was made, and assuming the advances in technology have in fact improved the IQ/MP relationship itself -- AND assuming that the 7D successor is positioned as an advanced wildlife body capable of high quality large prints, then I would agree that the better choice for 7D2 would be to improve IQ and hold MP constant. 

But what is good for me may not be good for Canon. If Canon can acheive a measureable improvement in IQ AND increase MPs at the same time, AND if the market demands a high MP wildlife body, then they will do it. Sadly, even with this positioning I suspect the market will deem increases in MP more important than increases in IQ (witness the crop body evolution, where MP wars are waged). But if Canon positions the 7D2 as an IQ wildlife body, and can appeal to those who know and understand the IQ/MP tradeoffs, and can separate it from the xxD/Rebel pack, then yes I can see them producing a new 18mp 1.6x sensor with game-changing IQ. that would be cool

much depends on the 1.3x sensor, something which the owner of this site and this board believes is dead. If it is really dead, then there is room imho for such a 7D2. However, if 1.3x stays alive as some re-incarnation and enhancement of the 1D4, then I suspect 7D2 will take more of the MP route


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## !Xabbu (Apr 27, 2012)

Ronnie said:


> What the EOS 7D mark II needs is AF when taking video, 1080p with 60 fps, 10 fps stills, better IQ and ISO with the same MP crop sensor, flip out screen with an LED screen in stead of the LCD, SD and CF card other wise the same as now.
> Canon can that be so difficult?



Why AF while taking video? I think Canon already produces enough cameras for the video community, but doesn't really improve anything on the still side. They should start concentrating on photography again. I feel like a hugely improved APS-C sensor (maybe even with less pixels), Digig V or V+ processors and the flip out screen would be great steps forward.

I also read that quite some people ask for a gripped body. I have to disagree with that. Not everyone wants to carry around a brick and if you want to, you can buy the grip as an accessory or get a 1D body from the get go. 

As to the 1.3 crop sensor - I see the huge drawback that there are no UWA lenses for that kind of sensor, which would make it only interesting for a very specific clientele. The 7D currently appeals to a very wide customer base, which is one of the reasons for it's success.


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## dlleno (Apr 27, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> [As to the 1.3 crop sensor - I see the huge drawback that there are no UWA lenses for that kind of sensor, which would make it only interesting for a very specific clientele. The 7D currently appeals to a very wide customer base, which is one of the reasons for it's success.



that is a great point, and evidence that 1.3 may be going away. I can't see Canon re-designing a1.3 body to accept the "C" lenses, but I guess they know more than I do! 

Also agreed on the grip body -- 7D2 should (imho) have and accessory grip as a choice. 

high IQ 18mp dual digic-V+ 10fps 30 frame buffer, the best BIF AF system known to man, 1.3x crop sensor, weather sealing, grip option.. (well we can dream can't we). updated high-end EF-S lenses with more rugged internals and weather sealing to compliment... etc.

and it should optimize stills photography


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## kdsand (Apr 27, 2012)

Ronnie said:


> What the EOS 7D mark II needs is AF when taking video, 1080p with 60 fps, 10 fps stills, better IQ and ISO with the same MP crop sensor, flip out screen with an LED screen in stead of the LCD, SD and CF card other wise the same as now.
> Canon can that be so difficult?
> 
> 
> ...




As far as I can tell the* 1 thing* that is a necessity for Canon is a new _ paragon crop_ sensor. The trickle down has proven so effective I have to imagine Canon replicating the scenario. If Canon can market a crop sensor and get awesome sales for a couple years and then release it in 3 or 4 other bodies & still get good sales wow that's all gravy ( a very high return ) . There will indeed in all likelihood be some increase in megapixels in order to suitabley impress the mass market :.

In order to stay (dominant) in its niche the 7Ds successor will need some improvement in the IQ and AF and so most likely it will sport two of the new processors. 

Regarding the screen - perhaps it will swing - though I do not see it as being a necessity. Why though is there doubt about it being able to be weather sealed adequately? A durable weather resistant screen is actually 1 of the simpler things to implement.

Video functionalty seems to be *fast* approaching the point where the drawbacks surpass the advantages. Fine fine fine Canon throw in the videography but to do not negatively impact my photography!


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## briansquibb (Apr 27, 2012)

As a sports camera, for the aps-h an ultra wa lens is a bit redundant methinks - not really an indication of its demise. The strength of the crop is the extra reach - reach that the ff cannot match.


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## dlleno (Apr 27, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> As a sports camera, for the aps-h an ultra wa lens is a bit redundant methinks - not really an indication of its demise. The strength of the crop is the extra reach - reach that the ff cannot match.



yea I see your point -- if Canon releases a new 1.3x body it will be because they have decided to continue targeting the niche pro wildlife market with the expectations that such photographers will be specialized to not require uwa, or if they do, they will have a FF body as well. Whether or not that market is strong enough to remain as profitable as Canon wants may be another issue, and I expect that will drive the 1.3 dead or alive question. But the 1.3x market does highlight that uwa capability is simply not present -- a compromize that serious wildlife shooters are willing to accept. 

The way the 7D appears to be positioned, it is intended to serve the needs of all focal lengths, and such photographers will expect all (rectilinear) focal lengths to be available, i.e to get down to the FF 16mm FOV equivalent on a crop body, which currently supplied by the EF-S 10-22


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## briansquibb (Apr 27, 2012)

dlleno said:


> yea I see your point -- if Canon releases a new 1.3x body it will be because they have decided to continue targeting the niche pro wildlife market with the expectations that such photographers will be specialized to not require uwa, or if they do, they will have a FF body as well. Whether or not that market is strong enough to remain as profitable as Canon wants may be another issue, and I expect that will drive the 1.3 dead or alive question. But the 1.3x market does highlight that uwa capability is simply not present -- a compromize that serious wildlife shooters are willing to accept.
> 
> The way the 7D appears to be positioned, it is intended to serve the needs of all focal lengths, and such photographers will expect all (rectilinear) focal lengths to be available, i.e to get down to the FF 16mm FOV equivalent on a crop body, which currently supplied by the EF-S 10-22



The widest on a 1.3 will be the 14mm (apart from the 8-15 fisheye, which is wider than anything for aps-c). This gives an equivalence of 18.2 mm, not exactly shabby, about half way between the 10-22 and the 15-85. I wouldn't see this as a major issue as it would be wider than most want.


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## dlleno (Apr 27, 2012)

the biggest focal gap for 1.3 is an uwa rectilinear zoom

weather sealing things that hinge and move is doable; It is more difficult/costly


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## briansquibb (Apr 27, 2012)

dlleno said:


> the biggest focal gap for 1.3 is an uwa rectilinear zoom



Which lens is that??


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## dlleno (Apr 27, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > the biggest focal gap for 1.3 is an uwa rectilinear zoom
> ...



there is none (in the Canon lineup anyway): Thats the 1.3x focal length gap I was attempting to highlight: no uwa rectilinear zoom for 1.3x bodies. 

In FF FOV equivalence terms, the 1.3x bodies have an 18mm prime and 21-45mm zoom, while both the 1.6x and the FF bodies have a 16-35mm zoom (provided by the 10-22 for 1.6x bodies)


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## briansquibb (Apr 27, 2012)

That is fine for me - the maximum I use is the 17-40 on ff which is rather wide. For an out and out sports/birding camera that should be enough.

If the user wants a more general purpose camera then there is the option of a 7D or a 5DIII

- Just like I wouldn't choose a 5DII or a D800 for sports


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## dlleno (Apr 27, 2012)

yea . not only that, if one is specialized enough to have a 1D4, then the additional speciality of a FF pro body isn't that surprising of an expectation, should it be needed. 

What is interesting to me is whether there will be a specialized pro body for wildlife or not. If they discontinue the 1.3, and a 1.6x body becomes the wildlife body of choice, then what Canon will have decided is that such a body is still "general purpose" at the uwa application because all you have there is the non-weather sealed EF-S 10-22 and 17-55. You STILL have to invest in a FF body to get the most out of uwa (and certainly fisheye)


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## briansquibb (Apr 27, 2012)

dlleno said:


> You STILL have to invest in a FF body to get the most out of uwa (and certainly fisheye)



Fish eye works fine on the 1.3 - just dont get the full bubble


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## dlleno (Apr 27, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > You STILL have to invest in a FF body to get the most out of uwa (and certainly fisheye)
> ...



works fine on the 1.6 too , without the full bubble


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## !Xabbu (Apr 28, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> As a sports camera, for the aps-h an ultra wa lens is a bit redundant methinks - not really an indication of its demise. The strength of the crop is the extra reach - reach that the ff cannot match.



This discussion is about the 7D II - the 7D is used by many photographers and it's by far not a sole wildlife/sports camera. So, if Canon doesn't totally change their strategy I don't see how the 7D II will be a wildlife/sports only camera - they will have at least bump the xxD up to where the 7D currently is and then there would be a huge gap to the xxxD line.


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## briansquibb (Apr 28, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > As a sports camera, for the aps-h an ultra wa lens is a bit redundant methinks - not really an indication of its demise. The strength of the crop is the extra reach - reach that the ff cannot match.
> ...



The suggestion is that to avoid the 5DIII stealing the 7D owners then there should be an out and out sports/wildlife camera as it there is a hole in Canons line up due to the demise of the 1D4. Also at the same time this would get market share as there nothing simillar in the Nikon lineup


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## 4REEE (Apr 28, 2012)

Anyone know if the DIGIC 5 or 5+ has the same pinout as a DIGIC 4? Same or better power dissipation?

I'm hoping that a 7DmkII would have:

a) Dual DIGIC 5 or 5+ processors if they can fit it in body
b) Articulated LCD screen
c) Volume meters for controlling incoming audio
d) 24MP sensor
e) 2 more fps on continuous drive
f) 60fps on 1920 x 1080 video

The camera still has to be fast for those of us who take those action shots. Don't need FF if it means more time to move a more massive mirror. Once again an extra 6MP on the sensor over the 7D would be nice.

Oh well, I can dream, can't I?


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## briansquibb (Apr 28, 2012)

4REEE said:


> Anyone know if the DIGIC 5 or 5+ has the same pinout as a DIGIC 4? Same or better power dissipation?
> 
> I'm hoping that a 7DmkII would have:
> 
> ...



Sounds almost like an updated 1D4


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## 4REEE (Apr 28, 2012)

@briansquibb: Almost, but the 1D X does have a 3rd processor (DIGIC 4). I'm less greedy... I just want dual DIGIC 5+.


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## briansquibb (Apr 28, 2012)

4REEE said:


> @briansquibb: Almost, but the 1D X does have a 3rd processor (DIGIC 4). I'm less greedy... I just want dual DIGIC 5+.



Id4 has dual digic 4


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## 4REEE (Apr 28, 2012)

Oops! You said 1D4, I was thinking 1D X.

My bad.


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## briansquibb (Apr 28, 2012)

4REEE said:


> Oops! You said 1D4, I was thinking 1D X.
> 
> My bad.



8) 8) 8)

Much as I would love it I dont think Canon are going to drop the price of the 1DX ;D


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## !Xabbu (Apr 28, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> !Xabbu said:
> 
> 
> > briansquibb said:
> ...



How does a $3,500 camera steal market share from a $1,400 camera? They are in totally different customer segments and even if many people upgrade to the 5D III, I can't see Canon loosing a tear about that. I'd rather sell a $3,500 product with $1,000 profit than a $1,400 product with $200 profit. I can't imagine that Canon has a very different view on that.

The current 7D is probably the upper end of the amateur/ enthusiast scale, which gives them much more volume than for example a 5D III will ever have. (Of course there are the odd rich amateurs who buy a 1D X as their first DSLR, but this is not the majority at all)


----------



## briansquibb (Apr 28, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> How does a $3,500 camera steal market share from a $1,400 camera? They are in totally different customer segments and even if many people upgrade to the 5D III, I can't see Canon loosing a tear about that. I'd rather sell a $3,500 product with $1,000 profit than a $1,400 product with $200 profit. I can't imagine that Canon has a very different view on that.
> 
> The current 7D is probably the upper end of the amateur/ enthusiast scale, which gives them much more volume than for example a 5D III will ever have. (Of course there are the odd rich amateurs who buy a 1D X as their first DSLR, but this is not the majority at all)



We are looking at the 7DII prices. If history repeats (like the 5DIII) itself the 7DII price will be somewhere in the region of $2200. Now if the 7DII stays as a general purpose camera then we would have two cameras in the same segment at about the same (street) price - probably a bad marketing decision.

By moving the 7DII more to a specialised sports role (currently vacated by the demise of the 1D4) then Canon would have two cameras with a distinctly different role and so would increase their market share. 

Prior to the 5DIII the 5DII and the 7D were not very close in marketing terms. The 7D had the sporting role, with the best AF (for its day) in the class, along with the new 18mp sensor, improved metering and, gasp, 8fps for a consumer camera. The 5DII focussed on top IQ with the 21mp, top low light performance - but poor (relatively) AF and only 4fps.

The introduction of the 5DIII means that the strengths of the 7D have been included and updated - 7D beating AF and now a more respectable 6fps as well as a slew of extra features. So as a user the 5DIII is now capable of doing everything the 5DII could do plus a lot of things better than the 7D did. So improving the 7D without changing the emphasis means that the two cameras would be very, very simillar.

What I am suggesting is that the 7DII has to have new strengths to re-differentiate itself from the 5DIII


----------



## !Xabbu (Apr 28, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> We are looking at the 7DII prices. If history repeats (like the 5DIII) itself the 7DII price will be somewhere in the region of $2200. Now if the 7DII stays as a general purpose camera then we would have two cameras in the same segment at about the same (street) price - probably a bad marketing decision.
> [...]
> What I am suggesting is that the 7DII has to have new strengths to re-differentiate itself from the 5DIII



OK, I partially agree there, but for me price is still the biggest differentiator. Spending $2,200 or $3,500 makes a huge difference (at least to me) and being able to use some of the excellent EF-S lenses opens the 7D II up to a much broader market, if it stays APS-C and doesn't go APS-H.
If the 7D II will be a gripped APS-H camera as some people here are advocating for, the sales numbers will be horrendous compared to the 7D.


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## ruuneos (Apr 28, 2012)

7D2 would be around $2000-2600?


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## briansquibb (Apr 28, 2012)

Excellent aps-c lens

- 10-22 
- 17-55
- 15-85

.... and (apart from non OEM) ...?

are they that much cheaper than the budget L lens?


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## takoman46 (Apr 28, 2012)

ruuneos said:


> 7D2 would be around $2000-2600?



I really doubt that. If Canon is coming out with an entry-level FF camera (which should not carry the 7D name for obvious reasons), then how would a 7D successor be priced at $2000-$2600? I'm not sure that there is any place for a 7D in the future Canon line up, but if there is one, then I think it would be priced the same as the original 7D. A lot of people seem to expect that the 7D should be packed with all these 1D4 type features that even the 5D3 does not have, but fail to realize that what they are describing falls more in line with what the 1DX is for $6800. Thus is the result of wishful thinking and rumors lol.


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## !Xabbu (Apr 28, 2012)

takoman46 said:


> ruuneos said:
> 
> 
> > 7D2 would be around $2000-2600?
> ...



Not everyone wants to go FF. I assume that the entry level FF will have either the 5D II AF system or a slightly better one, but nothing close to 7D. And on top of that there is the extra reach you get from APS-C.



briansquibb said:


> Excellent aps-c lens
> 
> - 10-22
> - 17-55
> ...



Yes, please add the Tokina 11-16mm and the Tamron 17-50mm non-VC (I don't know why you ignore non OEM). They might be not as good as some of the L glass, but they are cheaper and deliver great pictures for their price point. Not everyone has $2,000 laying around "just" for a single lens.


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## smirkypants (Apr 28, 2012)

dilbert said:


> Or to put it differently, how would the 7D Mark II sell against a full frame camera that was priced sub-$2000?


You forget that there are a significant number of people who want the reach of a crop. A ~20MP crop camera with great IQ holds great appeal for people who shoot at a distance.


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## Positron (Apr 28, 2012)

4REEE said:


> Anyone know if the DIGIC 5 or 5+ has the same pinout as a DIGIC 4? Same or better power dissipation?



They generally don't release that information (plus they've said in the past that each DIGIC model isn't actually a single processor, although I'd guess the ones they put in their DSLRs are the same if they have the same designation), but I don't think they'd even bother releasing a new one if it wasn't going to be more power efficient, since that's literally the #1 most important thing for embedded computing, way more important than performance or any other metric.



dilbert said:


> If the rumors of a Nikon D600 at 24MP are correct and it will sell at around $1500, then you can kiss goodbye to any hopes of a 7D Mark II. There just isn't space to put a product like it into the lineup and have it sell competitively against the competition.
> 
> Or to put it differently, how would the 7D Mark II sell against a full frame camera that was priced sub-$2000?



If the 7D2 had 61-pt AF, 8+ fps, top-of-the-line weather sealing, etc., and the entry-level FF just had image quality and ISO going for it. Even if it takes a lot of corner-cutting to offset the extra cost of the FF sensor, there are a lot of corners to cut in such a complicated device.


----------



## smirkypants (Apr 28, 2012)

dilbert said:


> Riddle me this.
> 
> If you could buy a Canon DSLR today that was full frame but cropped was 18-20MP, would you buy it and crop or would you use the pictures as they were? Or if there was a crop mode for use with L lenses, would you use it?


Today? In the last couple of months I've used a 5D3 a 1D4 and a 7D for shots at a distance with the best of L lenses ... a 400/2.8. The 5D just doesn't cut it. Of course I shoot a sport that is shot at a very great distance. On a very bright, crisp sunny day, I prefer the 7D. On a day shooting in less than ideal conditions, I prefer the 1D4. I suppose if I were shooting basketball I wouldn't mind the 5D3.


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## Marsu42 (Apr 28, 2012)

smirkypants said:


> The 5D just doesn't cut it.



... because? Less reach? Worse af?


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## Positron (Apr 28, 2012)

dilbert said:


> Positron said:
> 
> 
> > If the 7D2 had 61-pt AF, 8+ fps, top-of-the-line weather sealing, etc., and the entry-level FF just had image quality and ISO going for it. Even if it takes a lot of corner-cutting to offset the extra cost of the FF sensor, there are a lot of corners to cut in such a complicated device.
> ...



I have no interest in something that heavy, nor can I afford the more recent entries in the 1D series. I'm not in the market for a 7D-like camera either, since I rarely shoot things that move. You asked how a 7D Mark II would sell against an entry-level full frame, and my suggestion was that it would sell just fine against an entry-level full frame with nothing going for it other than being full frame.

I kid you not, if Canon released a camera with a full frame sensor that only went up to 400 ISO, shot 1 FPS, had only one autofocus point, and no weather sealing, but had 14 stops of DR and virtually nonexistent noise at ISO 100 (or even better, native ISO 50) for under $2000, I would buy it. Today. And I bet you I'm not alone.

Everyone wants something different in a camera, so having competing models at the same price point expands the potential market at least as much as it cannibalizes sales from other models. And if they have a camera that caters to a market that the competitor doesn't have a foothold in, then the sales they're cannibalizing are someone else's.


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## smirkypants (Apr 28, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> smirkypants said:
> 
> 
> > The 5D just doesn't cut it.
> ...


Because compared to the 7D, the 5D has less than half the megapixels in the same shot as the 7D's 18. If you have to do any cropping with the 5D, and you have to do a LOT of cropping at things shot far away, you're down to tiny files without much detail. It doesn't work for me at all. Like I said, if you're not shooting at super long distances, it's fine, though. Really nice.


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## briansquibb (Apr 28, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> Not everyone wants to go FF. I assume that the entry level FF will have either the 5D II AF system or a slightly better one, but nothing close to 7D. And on top of that there is the extra reach you get from APS-C.
> 
> Yes, please add the Tokina 11-16mm and the Tamron 17-50mm non-VC (I don't know why you ignore non OEM). They might be not as good as some of the L glass, but they are cheaper and deliver great pictures for their price point. Not everyone has $2,000 laying around "just" for a single lens.



We are talking about the 7D upgrade havin the 1D4 AF - far better than the 7D

If you think a L lens is $2000 then you are looking in the wrong place.

Used 17-40 are $5-600
Used 24-105 are $about 1000

Not that different from APS-C, which are budget lens - not designed for the top of the range 7D and up cameras


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## distant.star (Apr 29, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> If you think a L lens is $2000 then you are looking in the wrong place.
> 
> Used 17-40 are $5-600
> Used 24-105 are $about 1000
> ...



Uh oh. Wrong thing to say, Brian!


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## briansquibb (Apr 29, 2012)

distant.star said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > If you think a L lens is $2000 then you are looking in the wrong place.
> ...



I hate hiding behind weasly words. Truth sometimes hurts and sometimes it needs to be said.

Everyone by now should know that I am not a fanboy of any technology and that I believe that to be so is like running with closed eyes.


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## smirkypants (Apr 29, 2012)

dilbert said:


> Yes, today. Imagine the 5D3 had 45MP so that when crop'd to APS-C, it delivered 18MP.
> 
> Would you....
> ... use the 45MP full frame and crop everything (or use a crop mode)
> ...


I don't have to imagine, Dil... I have a Nikon 200-400/f4 lens that I'm using with a Nikon d800 camera. The results are spectacular.

If I'm shooting something that has a lot of close stuff going on, I'll shoot full-frame and crop the hell out of stuff. Sometimes I'm forced to be behind a line so then I'll shoot at 1.2 crop with a 25mp file. 

The attached shot was shot full-frame and then about 50% was cropped away.

Now... if it shot at 8fps, I'd be thrilled.


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## AprilForever (Apr 29, 2012)

So, back to the topic... No new rumors?


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## !Xabbu (Apr 29, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> !Xabbu said:
> 
> 
> > Not everyone wants to go FF. I assume that the entry level FF will have either the 5D II AF system or a slightly better one, but nothing close to 7D. And on top of that there is the extra reach you get from APS-C.
> ...



OK, my last post regarding the EF-S topic in here, but did you ever use one? The build quality of the 17-55mm f/2.8 is very good - perhaps not up to L standards, but still good enough for most people (even 7D owners). Comparing it to the 24-105mm, you're getting superior IQ and a faster lens for less money and you get a new lens. I bet there are enough people who find this deal interesting.

The 17-40mm is known to have only OK IQ and again it is slow. Take the Tokina 11-16mm in comparison - I get a faster lens with way superior IQ and L built quality (OK, no weather sealing - I give you that) again for the same price new.

Third, whenever I mention my 70-200mm f/4 L non-IS lens on this forum someone jumps up that this is a slow and boring budget lens - I personally love this lens, but there seem to be many people who have an unlimited stash of money and buy only the best equipment - lucky you.

The rest of us might still be OK photographers and might want great AF, but can't afford a 5D III - the new entry level FF will not have great AF, because then it would eat away sales from the 5D III.


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## briansquibb (Apr 29, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> briansquibb said:
> 
> 
> > We are talking about the 7D upgrade havin the 1D4 AF - far better than the 7D
> ...



Since I moved to digital I have aways had an APS-C camera - 40d/50d/7D. 50D was sold to buy the 7D. In March 2012 I gave away my 40D to a friend along with the 18-55 and 55-250. You will no doubt have spotted the 7D on my kit line - perhaps not :



!Xabbu said:


> The build quality of the 17-55mm f/2.8 is very good - perhaps not up to L standards, but still good enough for most people (even 7D owners). Comparing it to the 24-105mm, you're getting superior IQ and a faster lens for less money and you get a new lens. I bet there are enough people who find this deal interesting.
> 
> I own a 17-40 and 24-105 and both are in regular use.
> 
> ...



I own a 17-40 and 24-105 and both are in regular use. Both are excellent lens and stalwarts of the L range. The 24-105 is a great zoom on aps-c, short end does portraits, long end is a useful short telephoto - very different use from the 17-55 which are trying to compare it with. The 24-105 of course is the kit lens of the 5DIII and is used by a lot of pro wedding photographers. Have you owned either lens that you are critisizing?

I also own a 70-200 f/4 non IS - which has the focussing broken. When it was working I gave it a lot of use - as you say - top IQ. 

You are advocating ef-s lens as the way ahead - but howabout the non L ef lens - such as the 50 f/1.4 and the 85 f/1.8 which I always put in the bag too ?? You could buy these two used/refurb for the price of the 17-55.

I buy pre-owned kit to make my pension go further, I have only bought 3 lens new for example and all my bodies have been pre-owned. 

This thread is about the 7DII and I believe it should not be competing with the 5DIII so it will have to have a new feature set - a 5DII level AF would not be accepted as that would be a downgrade from the existing 7D AF. Just 10fps and better AF and metering link to the AF point would achieve that plus improvements to the low light would consolidate it as an excellent entry level sports camera


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## dlleno (May 1, 2012)

focus should definately stay on 7D2 rumors and related topics that might shape such rumors. imho, The EF-S vs L discussion is only relevant to the extent that 7D2 might take a more prominant place on the stage of wildlife bodies. For example if Canon really does kill the 1.3x sensor (as the owner of this forum and site maintains), AND maintains commitment to a crop body for wildlife, THEN the next pro-level wildlife body (meaning 1D4 successor) could be a 1.6x, in which case the high-end APS-C lenses start to become more important to a crowd other than amatuers and prosumers. Whether or not such a camera would be the 7D2 is another topic, to be sure.

But yea to maintain focus on the OP, I agree lets keep this to the 7D2 body specs and release timing, what 1.6x sensor Canon has up its sleave, and whether or not the 7D2 will be a yawn or a game changer.


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## jouster (May 1, 2012)

Well, I have no rumors to contribute. But add me to those hoping Canon never abandons the APS-C format. I bolt mine to the back of a 100mm apochromatic scope and image the Moon and planets. APS-C works well for this, giving me more effective reach.


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## dlleno (May 1, 2012)

dilbert said:


> Yes, today. Imagine the 5D3 had 45MP so that when crop'd to APS-C, it delivered 18MP.



If only it were that simple, though -- just think: The IQ/MP discussion would be moot, MP counts could go arbitrarily high and still meet IQ/ISO goals, pixel density wouldn't matter and the 7D2 could be a FF -- oh wait but if that were possible, then Canon could raise the pixel density even higher in a crop sensor and still win the large print contest over a cropped FF image producing the same FOV


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## !Xabbu (May 2, 2012)

dlleno said:


> dilbert said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, today. Imagine the 5D3 had 45MP so that when crop'd to APS-C, it delivered 18MP.
> ...



And we shouldn't even think about the price point. A 5D3 with 45MP, 14 FPS and 61-point AF would probably be priced well above $10K...


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## briansquibb (May 2, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> And we shouldn't even think about the price point. A 5D3 with 45MP, 14 FPS and 61-point AF would probably be priced well above $10K...



where can I order one


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## distant.star (May 2, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> !Xabbu said:
> 
> 
> > And we shouldn't even think about the price point. A 5D3 with 45MP, 14 FPS and 61-point AF would probably be priced well above $10K...
> ...



Send me the money, Brian. I'll take care of everything.

You want overnight shipping on that?


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## Ew (May 2, 2012)

A 7DmII with revamped 3200 iso to have much less noise (5D2 or slightly better) and IQ closer to 5D2, and no other changes would be enough for me.


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## stabmasterasron (May 2, 2012)

My two cents (for what it's worth) - we will have at least a 7dmkii announcement before Christmas. What is this based on - nothing, just hoping. I want a 7D type camera, but can wait 6 months if I can get a next gen version (cue the haters telling me not to wait - take pics now - don't worry I can rent the 7D as often as I want). Don't know if there will be a 7dmkii, but even the 70D will likely have better iso performance and good enough frame rates. I know I am mixing together lots of unannounced equipment - go ahead and flame.


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## dlleno (May 2, 2012)

I'd suggest the weight of evidence does suggest a 7D2 this calendar year. if you look at the product life cycle history, you'll see that except for the 1Ds3, the 7D has been out as long or longer than any other camera body in all of Canon DSLR history, without being updated. Allowing for Tsunami delays, and the market drive to update crop cameras more often (witness Rebels and xxD) I'd say we're over due for a new 7D and Canon's silence on this topic suggests to me that they have something up their sleeve. 

Just on the basis of its original intro (premium prosumer crop/wildlife) the 7D has been very succesful and would be due for an update without any change in its market positioning -- and this is without regards to all of the noise about a possible 1.6x pro level wildlife body to replace the 1D4 if 1.3x is dead. If 1.3 is really dead, then if you ask me that puts upward pressure on the capability set of the 7D2


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## briansquibb (May 2, 2012)

dlleno said:


> I'd suggest the weight of evidence does suggest a 7D2 this calendar year. if you look at the product life cycle history, you'll see that except for the 1Ds3, the 7D has been out as long or longer than any other camera body in all of Canon DSLR history, without being updated.



5DII?


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## D_Rochat (May 2, 2012)

dlleno said:


> I'd suggest the weight of evidence does suggest a 7D2 this calendar year. if you look at the product life cycle history, you'll see that except for the 1Ds3, the 7D has been out as long or longer than any other camera body in all of Canon DSLR history



The 5D mark II was out longer as well. Even if there is an announcement for a 7D replacement this calendar year, it could be 2013 before we see it hit shelves. It's all speculation at this point and no one can say for sure.


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## dlleno (May 2, 2012)

unless one splits hairs, the 7D has been out "about the same" as the 5D2 was before it (5D2) was updated. Both are still available.


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## D_Rochat (May 3, 2012)

Even then, every body has a different lifespan and since there was no previous 7D, it's impossible to tell when the 7D successor will arrive. In this case, reading chicken bones would be just as accurate.


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## dlleno (May 3, 2012)

respectfully disagree, which is of course the point of sharing rumors and engaging in reasonable speculation. I would just point out that speculation based on product lifecycle histories and the competitive landscape does have some interest, at least greater interest than nothing. Its true 7D has no predicessor but neither did any of the other bodies when they were first introduced and none of those, except the 1Ds3, has enjoyed a signigicantly longer "life before update" than the current 7D. Additional evidence that the 7D may be updated soon is that it's sensor is behind the competitive state-of-the-art and yet it represents the best Canon has to offer in a 1.6. 

It will be interesting to see what market the 7D stays aimed at; presently 7D is in the same camp as the 5D (as regards life cycle) and differentiated from the xxD and rebels which typically turn over much more frequently.


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## ScottyP (May 3, 2012)

But this discussion is already on PAGE 27!
Clearly there is a lot of interest in keeping alive and fresh a magnesium body with great AF for sports, and with microfocus adjustment ability. Don't know the number, but I have not seen many posts with 27 pages (AND COUNTING!) of comments. Not even for a new real camera. Certainly not this many posts for a completely non-existant camera.

Who knows the stats/record on most replies posted? Neuro?


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## unfocused (May 3, 2012)

I want to believe. I want to believe.

Seriously, there are a few things that lead me to believe we will see a 7DII in the next six months.

1) Canon cannot keep recycling the same 18mp sensor forever. It would be unusual for Canon to put a new sensor in a Rebel first, but even if they do that, it puts a lot of pressure on them to upgrade the 7D sensor. I can't see them leaving the same sensor in the 7D for another year if they upgrade the Rebel or the 60D Super Rebel.

2) Photokina is traditionally a consumer show. I believe Canon will want something to showcase at Photokina and a new 7DII seems a good bet. 

3) The 7D may be getting a little long in the tooth, but it's still clearly their top crop camera. Not so with Nikon's D300s, which is looking even more dated these days. Competitive pressure is heavy on Nikon and I can't see Canon letting Nikon refresh the D300s without offering an upgraded 7DII.

4) Canon still has to satisfy the APS-H shooters who lost their beloved 1.3 crop. A 1.6 7DII with image quality equal to the old 1D IV is very doable and would address the concerns of sport and wildlife shooters who want more reach. 

Wishful thinking? A little. But not totally divorced from reality.


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## dlleno (May 3, 2012)

unfocused said:


> I want to believe. I want to believe.
> 
> Seriously, there are a few things that lead me to believe we will see a 7DII in the next six months.



<reasonable stuff>


> 4) Canon still has to satisfy the APS-H shooters who lost their beloved 1.3 crop. A 1.6 7DII with image quality equal to the old 1D IV is very doable and would address the concerns of sport and wildlife shooters who want more reach.



valid point, and that would interest me as well, if priced accordingly (a serious 1.6x body under $2,500 should be doable, as long as we're wishing!) . I'm not quite as strong on this angle though, mainly because I haven't yet seen the proof that 1.3x is going away. I agree that there is weight of evidence, but all we know is that 1D and 1DS are merging. that doesn't necessasrily mean 1.3x is going away, or that a $5K 1D5 won't ever happen. But I acknowledge that there are indications that Canon may head that way, and if so that would certainly put the upward pressure on the capability set of the 7D2!


> Wishful thinking? A little. But not totally divorced from reality.



agreed on all three counts!


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## stabmasterasron (May 4, 2012)

I can't see the 7D line being killed off. Clearly it is the camera pros use when they need the extra reach. And I think Canon has a pretty strong history of supporting pro fotogs. 

I was walking around an event yesterday and saw at least 3 people carrying both a 5 series and the 7D. Anecdotal I know - but almost every place I see fotogs gathered together - there will be a few 7D's. 7D has high demand - I just don't see Canon dropping this line. Doesn't make sense. 

And if the 7D is killed off, there will only be one camera between the Rebels and the full frames (60D or maybe 70D). This also doesn't make sense. There will be a hole in the crop line that I am sure Nikon will take advantage of. 

For every reason I can think of, a 7Dmkii makes a lot of sense. I say Photonica 2012. On shelves by Christmas 2012.


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## briansquibb (May 4, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> I can't see the 7D line being killed off. Clearly it is the camera pros use when they need the extra reach.



That would be the 1D4 you are thinking of then??


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## stabmasterasron (May 4, 2012)

briansquibb said:


> stabmasterasron said:
> 
> 
> > I can't see the 7D line being killed off. Clearly it is the camera pros use when they need the extra reach.
> ...



No, the 7D is what I was thinking of.


----------



## dlleno (May 4, 2012)

stabmasterasron said:


> I can't see the 7D line being killed off. Clearly it is the camera pros use when they need the extra reach. And I think Canon has a pretty strong history of supporting pro fotogs.



I can't see 7D being killed off either, but for different reasons. As *briansquibb* has rightly pointed out, the 7D (in its present form) is not aimed at the pro wildlife photographers, as this need is currently being fulfilled by the 1.3x crop 1D4. 

7D is certainly positioned (currently) as the premium 1.6x crop, in addition to the other two lines, xxD and Rebel. It has been arguably very succesful for prosumers, but it doesn't have the feature set required for a truely pro level wildlife body. given the choice, I would gladly take a 1D4 over a 7D 


> I was walking around an event yesterday and saw at least 3 people carrying both a 5 series and the 7D. Anecdotal I know - but almost every place I see fotogs gathered together - there will be a few 7D's. 7D has high demand - I just don't see Canon dropping this line. Doesn't make sense.



yes indeeed, and some may even suggest 7D is wildly succesful, not to mention a great compliment to the 5Ds. But I would only point out that neither of these are truly the top, pro/flagship bodies -- designations fulfilled by the FF 1Ds and the 1.3x 1D4.


> And if the 7D is killed off, there will only be one camera between the Rebels and the full frames (60D or maybe 70D). This also doesn't make sense. There will be a hole in the crop line that I am sure Nikon will take advantage of.



well -- don't forget 1D4, which is still alive, although yes I agree the weight of evidence puts the future of the 1.3x crop body in question. With or without the 1.3x in the picture, 7D has a strong future imho even if it remains as a prosumer 1.6x crop body, which it is today, and this would likely remain the case even if Canon pulls a fast one and introduces a new 1.3x body with somethign besides a "1" in the name.


> For every reason I can think of, a 7Dmkii makes a lot of sense. I say Photonica 2012. On shelves by Christmas 2012.



no argument there! I hope you are right


----------



## x-vision (May 4, 2012)

dlleno said:


> It has been arguably very succesful for prosumers, but it doesn't have the feature set required for a truely pro level wildlife body. given the choice, I would gladly take a 1D4 over a 7D



And herein lies the problem with the 7D:
It's not a true pro camera that appeals to pros and commands a higher price.
At the same time, it's a bit pricey for consumers, compared to the very competent D7000, for example. 

So, the 7D market right now is mostly consumers willing to pay a premium.
This market is limited, though, and if Canon had a D7000-equivalent, it would all but disappear.
This is exactly what happened with the D300s market after Nikon released the D7000. 

Looking forward, Canon either needs to make the 7DII a true pro body or move the 7DII downmarket.

These days all pro cameras are FF, so making the 7DII a true pro body means making it a FF camera.
If this happens, it's unlikely that the 7D moniker will be kept, though. 
And if moved downmarket, the 7DII won't be called 7D either, since the next level down is the xxD series. 

So, there you have it. 
The 7DII will either be a FF camera (unlikely) or it won't be called the 7DII but the 70D.


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## dlleno (May 4, 2012)

x-vision said:


> So, there you have it.
> The 7DII will either be a FF camera (unlikely) or it won't be called the 7DII but the 70D.



interesting analysis. Still, the 7D can "put more pixels on the subject" and produce better IQ than the 5D at distance limited situations with the same lens and the cropped for the same FOV. So if the 1.3x really goes away, then Canon will have abandoned the pro wildlife niche, in which case the argument would be stronger for a pro-level crop body. In that case it probably wouldn't be called a 7D2 but a 3D! 

but keeping the 7D in the 1.6x prosumer space has been wildly succesful so I would'nt expect Canon to merge 7D and 70D lines if they believe the market will bear it


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## x-vision (May 4, 2012)

dlleno said:


> but keeping the 7D in the 1.6x prosumer space *has been* wildly succesful so I would'nt expect Canon to merge 7D and 70D lines if they believe the market will bear it



Yes, *has been*. 
Before the D7000 showed consumers what they can have for $1200.
Also, at a time when only the 1-series cameras had an advanced AF system and other advanced features.

Things are different now.


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## dlleno (May 4, 2012)

7D and D7000 are certainly compettors at similar price points, and there is no question that advanced functionalities are dipping into lower price ranges. Personally I don't see room for all three (rebel, xxD and 7D) and the market may well be compressing that space, who knows. 

interesting shows to watch, to be sure. But the 7D is still very succesful though, even with the D7000 in the picture. there are advantages to each one (one stop shutter speed advantage on the 7D for example, and higher fps) that can be important depending on your needs. 

to propell the 7D into the very serious amateur and/or pro market would require taking on some of the pro-series features, like weather sealing, high-count shutter, grip, etc. perhaps you're suggesting that Canon 70D should compete with D7000 and if that happens, AND if 1.3x goes away, then the king of the crop bodies may not be either of these at all it may be something betweeen "1" and "7" but not a "5"!


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## dlleno (May 4, 2012)

yea thats a CR1 level suggestion almost 3 months old. I think our speculation here is just as credible, and based on the same level of credible evidence!


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## takoman46 (May 5, 2012)

dlleno said:


> interesting analysis. Still, the 7D can "put more pixels on the subject" and produce better IQ than the 5D at distance limited situations with the same lens and the cropped for the same FOV. So if the 1.3x really goes away, then Canon will have abandoned the pro wildlife niche, in which case the argument would be stronger for a pro-level crop body. In that case it probably wouldn't be called a 7D2 but a 3D!
> 
> but keeping the 7D in the 1.6x prosumer space has been wildly succesful so I would'nt expect Canon to merge 7D and 70D lines if they believe the market will bear it


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## kdw75 (May 5, 2012)

I would upgrade my 7D to the MKII, or whatever they call it, as long as it is no more than $2500. That is pretty much my all I can justify spending on a camera.


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## !Xabbu (May 5, 2012)

dlleno said:


> to propell the 7D into the very serious amateur and/or pro market would require taking on some of the pro-series features, like weather sealing, high-count shutter, grip, etc. perhaps you're suggesting that Canon 70D should compete with D7000 and if that happens, AND if 1.3x goes away, then the king of the crop bodies may not be either of these at all it may be something betweeen "1" and "7" but not a "5"!



I don't think that a built-in grip will be seen in the 7D II. First of all there are many people who don't want to have a brick for a camera. Second, you can buy the grip as additional equipment.
And to your comment re serious amateur/pro market - the 5D III has less weather sealing than the 1D series, no grip and still is a serious amateur/ pro market camera. I definitely know many serious amateurs who are very happy with their 7D (all of these decisions are also based on price and that's where the 7D trumps all FF cameras).


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## Chuck Alaimo (May 5, 2012)

What constitutes a 'pro' body? Is it the price tag, feature set, or construction? I shoo on a 7d currently, and I am an emerging pro. While shooting an event a couple months ago a a club, some idiot bumped into me and spilled more than half a beer on my camera, like right on the LCD screen. I did quickly dry it out - the only issue i saw after that was a little stickyness on the buttons. So, while I have not done a leave it out in the rain test, I do think that is a good statement of weather sealing on the 7D...

Again though, what makes a body 'pro'? Is it the specs, the construction, the features, the AF, or is it simply he price tag? Is it FF vs crop? How does APS-H 1.3 crop fit in then? I guess that means the 1dmk4 isn't a pro body. Does it have o have a built in grip to be pro? That means the 5 series is out too. 

I just feel that people throw that term 'pro' level around all too often, when really the definition of 'pro' level is murky and hidden - I feel that its more of a combination of the camera and the user. If I were the 15 year old son of some rich guy and said, daddy i want to take pictures, and daddy buys me a 1dx, does that make me pro? Should I give up now because obviously my photos will suck cause my 7D is not pro? Just kind of sick of that term being thrown around willy nilly with no real definition of what that actually means.


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## !Xabbu (May 5, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> What constitutes a 'pro' body? Is it the price tag, feature set, or construction? I shoo on a 7d currently, and I am an emerging pro. While shooting an event a couple months ago a a club, some idiot bumped into me and spilled more than half a beer on my camera, like right on the LCD screen. I did quickly dry it out - the only issue i saw after that was a little stickyness on the buttons. So, while I have not done a leave it out in the rain test, I do think that is a good statement of weather sealing on the 7D...
> 
> Again though, what makes a body 'pro'? Is it the specs, the construction, the features, the AF, or is it simply he price tag? Is it FF vs crop? How does APS-H 1.3 crop fit in then? I guess that means the 1dmk4 isn't a pro body. Does it have o have a built in grip to be pro? That means the 5 series is out too.
> 
> *I just feel that people throw that term 'pro' level around all too often, when really the definition of 'pro' level is murky and hidden - I feel that its more of a combination of the camera and the user.* If I were the 15 year old son of some rich guy and said, daddy i want to take pictures, and daddy buys me a 1dx, does that make me pro? Should I give up now because obviously my photos will suck cause my 7D is not pro? Just kind of sick of that term being thrown around willy nilly with no real definition of what that actually means.



+1 - I couldn't agree more with you.


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## Marsu42 (May 5, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> Again though, what makes a body 'pro'? Is it the specs, the construction, the features, the AF, or is it simply he price tag? Is it FF vs crop? How does APS-H 1.3 crop fit in then? I guess that means the 1dmk4 isn't a pro body. Does it have o have a built in grip to be pro? That means the 5 series is out too.



I don't think an adequate definition is that complicated: tech gear is "pro" if you are paying a premium for reliability because you'd be loosing more money if your gear broke down in a business situation. Thus an amateur does not need this "pro" quality because non-"pro" gear can get the same results.

You are right about saying that specs are neither "pro" or not - it's just a matter of money vs. iq or keeper rate, but that doesn't say anything about if the end result can be sold or not.


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## briansquibb (May 5, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
> 
> 
> > Again though, what makes a body 'pro'? Is it the specs, the construction, the features, the AF, or is it simply he price tag? Is it FF vs crop? How does APS-H 1.3 crop fit in then? I guess that means the 1dmk4 isn't a pro body. Does it have o have a built in grip to be pro? That means the 5 series is out too.
> ...



I think of pro as being able to shoot in all weathers - so waterproofed. I think of pro as being able to produce commercial grade images (that may be different according to intended use - ie photojournalism and landscape)

I think the phrase 'tack sharp' as being over used


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## Chuck Alaimo (May 6, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> Chuck Alaimo said:
> 
> 
> > Again though, what makes a body 'pro'? Is it the specs, the construction, the features, the AF, or is it simply he price tag? Is it FF vs crop? How does APS-H 1.3 crop fit in then? I guess that means the 1dmk4 isn't a pro body. Does it have o have a built in grip to be pro? That means the 5 series is out too.
> ...



I agree, but this doesn't make one body any more 'pro' than any other. Examples - lets say instead of 1 7d I had 2 of them ---paying the premium of having 2 bodies just in case one breaks down which would mean losing money. Would that also include membership with something like CPS? Regular maintenance? If you have all or most of that running, would that be more of a pro system than owning a single 1 series body (take it even further, 1 series body but no L glass)...

That gets into the other side of it, what about paring a technically non-pro body with L glass? 

I guess what it boils down to is levels. If pro is just about the money, then if you making under 30K from photography, I guess that means your an amateur? Or does it only mean your an amateur if you don't have a 1 series body? 

Another way to look at it too, from that place of " tech gear is "pro" if you are paying a premium for reliability because you'd be loosing more money if your gear broke down in a business situation. Thus an amateur does not need this "pro" quality because non-"pro" gear can get the same results." As a business you need to interpret your own finances - you aren't pro for long if your income from photography can't cover the cost of the equipment. If your earning under 30K, then yeah, a 1 series body is a significant portion of your yearly income...

I think we're on the same page, I just feel liket here are lots of amateurs here that see it as $$$ amount. A 7D isn't pro because its under $1500---- which to my mind boils down to bragging rights...and more likely, no actual soldi tangible results. If my 7D images can mop the floor with an amateur using a 1 series body, then the bragging rights boils down to my camera costs this much, its awesome because it costs this much...


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## Marsu42 (May 6, 2012)

Chuck Alaimo said:


> I agree, but this doesn't make one body any more 'pro' than any other. Examples - lets say instead of 1 7d I had 2 of them ---paying the premium of having 2 bodies just in case one breaks down which would mean losing money. Would that also include membership with something like CPS? Regular maintenance? If you have all or most of that running, would that be more of a pro system than owning a single 1 series body (take it even further, 1 series body but no L glass)...



Agreed - I just came up with the one definition for "pro" lenses or bodies that does make sense to me. That doesn't mean every pro photog (ie. who earns money with this) should get "pro" gear if he cannot sustain the costs.

And there's another aspect I forgot: Your clients have to think your "pro", too. If you're in non-IT management in Germany, people expect you to own expensive suits and a bigger a BMW or Mercedes. Likewise, I see many wedding photogs state on their websites that they have "pro" lenses and bodies to make clients feel confident. And the other day an event photog wrote here that his colleague don't take anyone for serious that doesn't have red ring gear, and you might even get thrown out as an crazy amateur that will mess up the show.


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## OldSalt (May 7, 2012)

Not an expert by any means but with regard to Consumer, Amateur, and Professional hasn't Canon already defined that for us by offering the three classes, Rebel, XXD, & XD lines? 

I am not saying there is no overlap, there obviously is, and there always will be but generally speaking with regards to Canon DSLR line I think that it is pretty clear how the manufacturer breaks it down. 

Now I think the real confusion is on how the individual uses their gear, such as if someone uses a T3i for performing paid work, weddings, portraits etc, he or she is obviously in it to make money and regardless of skill or gear by the classic definition since they're making money they are defined as a "Pro".

If one was to have 15K worth of 1D X body and "L" lens yet never did photography for money then they would fit the definition of either Consumer or Amateur depending on their aspirations I suppose.

So in my opinion there is “professional” level gear (rather easy to define) and then there is the category of the user/photographer (much more subjective to define).

Lastly there is the _SKILL_ of the photographer, this catagory for me seems pretty easy to define as well. If an individual is capable of setting or preparing for and capturing what they set out to get with regard to the composition, exposure etc.. then they are, in my mind, demonstrating a professional skill level regardless of the gear they own/use. Someone with professional level skills can most likely create better images with lower level gear than a consumer and amateur with the best gear.

So from my perspective I would break it down like this for Canon DSLR bodies:
Pro 1D series 
5D series
7D
Amateur 60D series
Consumer Rebel series

Application:
Makes a living from photography Pro
Sometimes sells prints but does not do it full time Amateur
Never sells anything all for personal satisfaction/interest Consumer

Skill level:
Creates the image he or she setout to create almost always Pro
Creates image he or she intended at least half the time Amateur
Creates decent images but most often relies on the 
equipment and very basic knowledge to get the picture 
without a lot of work Consumer

Please don't be to harsh, these are JUST MY OPINIONS and I do not want to hurt anyone's feelings its just how I percevie things.


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## dlleno (May 7, 2012)

I Think y'all are making this pro definition too complex, but the most important concept to understand is that companies exist to make profit. and the more profit they make the happier their CEOs and boards of directors and shareholders are. Companies manipulate their SKUs and their product lines, including what they name their products and how many of them to produce, based on what their research shows what causes people to part with their money. It isn't about who is better at all; in fact it isn't about the photographer at all, it is about what Canon thinks of the photographer. 

And so Canon puts different features into different models, not necesssarily based on mfg cost (although that is certainly part of it), but based on what will make them money. For example; there are people will read the number of MPs on the box and buy the commodity with the biggest number but don't want to spend very much money on it -- and there are cameras for those buyers because Canon wants their money. There are also people who care more about eeking out that last bit of ISO/dynamic range and noise performance, and will trade that for a fewer number of pixels, and who want a camera durable enough to snap a half million frames, to work in the rain, or perhaps at high fps with an AF system that will track birds and balls. Others want to capture every mood of the pine cone in the shade of the mountain at a thousand feet. My point is that some people are more likely to pay more for certain features, and Canon knows it, so bodies are spec'd and priced accordingly. Its market segmentation. What we normaly think of as a "pro" may be true in many cases (folks who are very succesful generating income with the equipment they purchase) , but really what we should say is that there are features that some photographers want which help them produce the results they want (whatever that is, even if it is a perception) and they are willing to pay for it. And Canon wants their money too.


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## Marsu42 (May 7, 2012)

dlleno said:


> I Think y'all are making this pro definition too complex



Ok, here's the classic definition - a "pro" camera is when you wade through mud in the trenches, jump away from incoming grenades and after days of rain your camera is still working. That's when Nikon and their "F" got their reputation from...



dlleno said:


> but the most important concept to understand is that companies exist to make profit. and the more profit they make the happier their CEOs and boards of directors and shareholders are. [...] And so Canon puts different features into different models, not necesssarily based on mfg cost (although that is certainly part of it), but based on what will make them money.



Indeed - but shareholder value doesn't only extend to the next quarter report, but beyond, too. And alienating the customer base that is (only!) currently pinned to one's product by their lenses & flashes is not a sound long-term strategy. So if you differentiate your product lineup too short-sales oriented and the mix of features in each specific product themselves do not make sense, you won't survive the competition.

And Canon is really on the edge, e.g. with leaving out afma from the 60d or all the little software annoyances to make you wish for a better body while your current one would do just fine with a firmware upgrade. I hope they learn from the d800 - Nikon's reputation has skyrocketed around Canon users since then, and Canon might be sorry to have tried to squeeze every last $ out of 5d3 customers.


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## dlleno (May 7, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > I Think y'all are making this pro definition too complex
> ...



sure thats one of a few features that Canon and others have found people will pay for. along with durable shutters, focusing at f/8, etc.


> dlleno said:
> 
> 
> > but the most important concept to understand is that companies exist to make profit. and the more profit they make the happier their CEOs and boards of directors and shareholders are. [...] And so Canon puts different features into different models, not necesssarily based on mfg cost (although that is certainly part of it), but based on what will make them money.
> ...


 right, and all those things are part of shareholder value, unless of course you are a short term shareholder. Marketing is marketing, and it can bring success or failure. I view the 5D3 pricing in that category -- one wonders what Canon did or did not know, and if they got caught resting on their laurels, Suddenly propelling themselves into the "Higher priced mfg" label.


> And Canon is really on the edge, e.g. with leaving out afma from the 60d or all the little software annoyances to make you wish for a better body while your current one would do just fine with a firmware upgrade. I hope they learn from the d800 - Nikon's reputation has skyrocketed around Canon users since then, and Canon might be sorry to have tried to squeeze every last $ out of 5d3 customers.



no argument there. and I suspect they are carefully weighing the 7D2 intro, so that a D800-like embarrassment does not happen!


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## !Xabbu (May 12, 2012)

dlleno said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > And Canon is really on the edge, e.g. with leaving out afma from the 60d or all the little software annoyances to make you wish for a better body while your current one would do just fine with a firmware upgrade. I hope they learn from the d800 - Nikon's reputation has skyrocketed around Canon users since then, and Canon might be sorry to have tried to squeeze every last $ out of 5d3 customers.
> ...



Let's hope this will happen. It feels like history shows that Canon has a tendency to willingly cripple their "lower level" cameras (i.e. the AF on the 5D II, no AFMA on the 60D, AF on all xxxD/xxxxD bodies, ...). However, I think the 7D and 5D III show that Canon can also up it's game and deliver awesome products.


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## Marsu42 (May 12, 2012)

!Xabbu said:


> Let's hope this will happen. It feels like history shows that Canon has a tendency to willingly cripple their "lower level" cameras (i.e. the AF on the 5D II, no AFMA on the 60D, AF on all xxxD/xxxxD bodies, ...).



However, to be fair Nikon used to differentiate bodies with different sensors, while Canon does/did it with features like af. It's just these deliberately left out firmware features that I'm not too happy about - but having said that, the 60d is a complete package with "works for me" customization. I sometimes wonder if afma capability is in the body and just disabled, or if they cut costs and changed the hardware...



!Xabbu said:


> However, I think the 7D and 5D III show that Canon can also up it's game and deliver awesome products.



Crippling cheaper bodies wouldn't make sense if there wasn't the "real" thing - but at a big premium price like the 5d3 now or the 7d vs the 60d most of the time.


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## kdsand (May 12, 2012)

As far as I can tell the fine tuning auto focus it's not about the bodies but about lenses. Canon can have higher quality output with lower quality hardware while still charging OEM premium. This is it cost effective strategy but it's not good for us consumers. I guess thats is one of the reasons that if I purchase a Canon lens that is not spot on I will not feel bad returning it to Canon as many times as it takes to have a perfect one _ perfect until I have to upgrade bodies_. :-\


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## Marsu42 (May 13, 2012)

kdsand said:


> As far as I can tell the fine tuning auto focus it's not about the bodies but about lenses.



You're correct - however, Canon seems to adjust their lenses better anyway. Every Canon lens I ever tried had no afma problems (in contrast to 3rd party manufacturers like Tamron). That's why I think leaving out the afma from the 60d was not just intended to make the 7d look better, but mostly to torpedo 3rd party sales - I'll probably buy a Tamron 24-70, but won't getting around looking for a sample that fits my camera body out of the box.


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## kdsand (May 14, 2012)

Marsu42 said:


> kdsand said:
> 
> 
> > As far as I can tell the fine tuning auto focus it's not about the bodies but about lenses.
> ...



The lack of fine tunable auto focus is the only thing that is a disappointment for me with my 60D while the rest of the features make it a great performer otherwise. Down the line when I do upgrade tuning the A.F. is definitely on my must have list.

Regarding third party lenses - they seem to be playing much better lately. Well that's what I'm seeing based on more current reviews vs those just a couple of years back. I know there are several very nice third party glass options to be had. If you do spend the extra time making sure you get a good copy there is another benefit - the various glass seems to have definite unique color/tone or richness. I guess I would say variation can keep your eyes sharp. 8)


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