# Speedlites - How many are enough?



## Quasimodo (Sep 26, 2014)

Yeah, a question with no definite answer, but yet....

I have now sold two of my studio strobes (elinchrom), and am about to sell the other two I have. What I have left is my three 600ex rt and a st-e3. I am thinking about aquiring another three speedlites, to allow me the flexibility of having enough light for most situations that I will encounter as an amateur (with the occasional paid photogig). My main use will be a studio setup, but I would also like the opportunity to do HSS. 

Any thoughts?


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## RLPhoto (Sep 27, 2014)

I have 5x 600rts + yougnuo ste3 transmitter. I decided that if I needed more than that setup, the subject matters needs to be lit with a big light system IE: my PCB Einsteins.

You'll hit a point of diminishing returns on speed lites once you go beyond two lights per softbox. To gain a stop, you'll need 4x lights and so on to 8x lights... etc.

I found five+transmitter is enough for me.


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## jdramirez (Sep 27, 2014)

I have 2... I wouldn't mind 3... after all is said and done... maybe I'll wind up with 5.


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## Click (Sep 27, 2014)

I have 3x 600RT and a ST E3 Transmitter, it's enough for my needs.


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## Tabor Warren Photography (Sep 27, 2014)

Just ONE more... ;D

In more seriousness, I got by with one for a long time, was excited about having two, (I always shoot with two bodies), now I have three, (though one is a 430ii), and I'll be buying another 600 as well as a couple of Einsteins per RL's suggestion. I think of RL as the lighting guru, so I would heed his advice when it's given.

Cheers,
-Tabor


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## Jim Saunders (Sep 27, 2014)

Two more would make indoor rodeo a lot easier. Two more past that really opens up some options. However the four I have now are enough, and external batteries are no small expense to go with them. (Never mind something to support them!)

Jim


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## davidson (Sep 27, 2014)

i read Syl Arena's Speedliter's Handbook recently and he says, i believe, that he has 12 speedlites, and his mentor Joe Mcnally, has 17. you get when you need, i dont think there is such a thing as too many


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## c.d.embrey (Sep 27, 2014)

I have one Canon 580ex for the times I need *ON-Camera-Flash*. Most of my work is done with *Profoto packs/heads.*


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## privatebydesign (Sep 27, 2014)

I like nine, that is three triple threats worth and means you can do HSS in most situations with enough power and flexibility as either a "two light" six and three setup or a "three light" three threes setup, I tend not to use external packs as I don't take hundreds of images. I also really like the ability to sprinkle them all over the place as accent lights individually. But that is a big financial commitment and the truth is there are some other options out there now that look good and do HSS, especially the Profoto B1Airs.

But like RLP, once it get above that I go for the Einsteins, most of the time I'd rather use one Einstein than six 600's in a modifier anyway.


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## Dylan777 (Sep 27, 2014)

Started with five 600EX-RT + one Canon ST-E3-RT Speedlite Transmitter. I feel three are enough for my needs. More likely will sell other two.

BTW, The Canon ST-E3-RT Speedlite Transmitter works extremely well with 600ex-rt. Couldn't miss a single shot.


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## instaimage (Sep 27, 2014)

Quasimodo... as with most everything else with photography, it depends... 

I've got eight 600's and two ST-E3's... I frequently use four (on battery packs) to light team photos (faster recycle) and at least two in a 32" soft box to light individuals for sports shots. I went mostly speedlite's as a solution because I'm not dependent on power on location AND I can put them in various places if I need a bit more light here or there... The radio transmission of the 600's allows some added flexibility... but it all goes back to what are YOU shooting, what will YOU be using them for... it's hard for us to give advice without knowing what you'll be shooting. I'd recommend shoot what you have and add if you NEED more... they're not cheap but you may find you're getting most everything with what you've got. If anything I'd suggest one more, that would give you two for a background and two for a main/fill if you every shoot a white background for example (yes, I know the background CAN be made white with just one... but...)

The above team photos... I used to do that with one 580EX... so...


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## Halfrack (Sep 27, 2014)

This is where the folks at Profoto need to work with Canon a bit more - as in allowing the Profoto Air TTL control the 600ex or the 440ex if we ever see one. Or a TTL receiver, just a method that they all work together.

The power of a B1 is amazing - and setting up 2 B1's is a lot easier and reliable than doing 2x 3 600ex gangs.

It'll be interesting to see what the Phottix strobes do now... https://fstoppers.com/gear/phottix-announces-indra500-ttl-500ws-strobe-ttl-and-hss-37521 - especially since it'll play with the Mitros+ and Odin TTL adapters.

Ideally, 2-3 of the 500w/s strobes with 4-6 speedlites on a single trigger


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## Bernd FMC (Sep 27, 2014)

As an poor Amateur - restarted the Hobby Photografic - i´d first set up Body and Lenses.

Some Months ago i also thought to myself how much Speedlites i "need" - and theoretical for
an Amateur 3 Speedlites should be enougt for most Scenarios.

Actualy i´ve got 2 -shot a Wedding last Friday - used the two Speedlites while the Party.

I missed the Highlights while flashing both indirect, for my poor Number of Speedlites using
one on Cam indirect AND with Catchlightplate - i´ve got an relative good Balance - the second
lights indirect the Back Parts of the ( not so big ) Room.

So a Number of 3 Speedlites seems to be the Minimal Number i need, but 4 would be nicer.
( #1 Front/Left indirect/#2 Front/right indirect/#3 Backside/#4 direct low Power frontal )

While shot the Wedding, and positive Results with the Catchlightplate i reduced my Needs for
an ST-E3 until i´ve got 3 or more Speedlites.

An OC-E3 is in my Bag to raise the Distance of the OnCamFlash too.

My Wish would be an small Speedlite with Radiomastercapability, an 600-EX-RT with
lower Power and Weight - but full Function including IR-AF-Support-Lightning .

Point of View of an Amateur ... 

Your are right - the Numbers of SL´s can´t be enough  .

Sorry for my poor English... .

Bernd


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## Quasimodo (Sep 27, 2014)

Thank you all for your valuable advice.

I have to think hard about this as there is as you all mention a certain economical committment to buying these flashes. While the advice to buy more when the specific need arises makes sense, I have a chance now to get my basic kit set up. I might go for three more, and if it is a overkill for my use/skill they actually keep a good second hand price. 

I am also pondering if I should keep my two elinchrom D-lite 200w given their eye cell capabilities, thus allowing me to use them for backdrop light triggered by the 600 flashes.


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## NunoMatos (Sep 27, 2014)

I have 3x 600RT and a ST E3 Transmitter


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## pwp (Sep 29, 2014)

davidson said:


> I read Syl Arena's Speedliter's Handbook recently and he says, I believe, that he has 12 speedlites, and his mentor Joe Mcnally, has 17. You get when you need, I don't think there is such a thing as too many...


Can you imagine the attention to detail required setting up 12 let alone 17 Speedlights? And the lack of flexibility? For certain projects you'd certainly get a unique look. 

For OP Quasimodo, of course it depends on the sort of projects you'll be taking on. A bunch of Speedlights might be perfect for your work. If you're not missing the Elinchroms, then maybe you don't need monos. If future projects require you do need monos again, Einsteins are worth a very close look. I have six of them plus a raft of accessories, modifiers, VML batteries etc. The PCB stuff is extraordinary value. http://paulcbuff.com/

For HSS work, at a pinch I can get the Einsteins to play ball triggering them with the almost mythical abilities of the Phottix Odin system and their ODS fine-tuning function. Only expect HSS/Einstein to work on full power (longest flash duration). More flexible for HSS, and maybe very useful for you, is the Godox Witstro 360, also triggered with Phottix Odin. There is a $25 eBay accessory that means you can use Bowens mount modifiers. 
http://flashhavoc.com/godox-witstro-ad180-ad360-review/ 

With the Phottix Odins you can maximise HSS output with ODS fine tuning. Rather than going right into ODS here, check out:
http://flashhavoc.com/phottix-odin-ods-over-drive-sync/comment-page-1/#comment-19555

Phottix is doing great things right now. Their Mitros speedlight is getting a lot of attention as is their most recent announcement, the TTL & HSS capable Indra 500 http://flashhavoc.com/phottix-indra500-ttl-announced/ 

But how many speedlights are enough? For Joe Mcnally and his required team of lighting assistants, seventeen is good. For me it's two 600 EX-RT's plus the Godox Witstro 360. I'd say build up as projects demand and budget allows.

-pw


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## privatebydesign (Sep 29, 2014)

pwp said:


> davidson said:
> 
> 
> > I read Syl Arena's Speedliter's Handbook recently and he says, I believe, that he has 12 speedlites, and his mentor Joe Mcnally, has 17. You get when you need, I don't think there is such a thing as too many...
> ...



We really need to stop calling lights with long durations and tuned to cover the time the shutter blades are exposing the sensor HSS, the two work in a fundamentally different way, long duration is not HSS, and both cost a massive amount of power.


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## Daniel 78d (Sep 29, 2014)

I just have a 90ex, it feels like a toy on my 1dx but I plan on getting more.


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## pwp (Sep 29, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> We really need to stop calling lights with long durations and tuned to cover the time the shutter blades are exposing the sensor HSS, the two work in a fundamentally different way, long duration is not HSS, and both cost a massive amount of power.


Hah! Interesting point. HSS...strictly technically no but practically yes. What is it that defines "true HSS"?

We may have strayed from the strict HSS definition, but it's a useful terminology that people understand. 
Think of it as living language. The acronym HSS communicates a function....High Speed Sync. Simple enough.

So what _do _we call it? We're achieving flash sync at a high shutter speed. We understand the limitations such as significant power loss, but it's still a very useful, relevant creative tool. Sounds a bit HSS-ish to me!

-pw


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## RLPhoto (Sep 29, 2014)

pwp said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > We really need to stop calling lights with long durations and tuned to cover the time the shutter blades are exposing the sensor HSS, the two work in a fundamentally different way, long duration is not HSS, and both cost a massive amount of power.
> ...


That is a grey area but let's call it what it originally was called Hyper sync. That version of sync causes you to lose tremendous power out of the strobe, flash duration and will eat through your VMLs quicker. In a sense, it's a work around but not a solution if you still need maximum power and short durations.

True high sync speed out of a x100/leaf shutter cameras is actual HSS. One pop within the full opening of the sensor and closing at above normal sync speeds.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 29, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...



Only if the flash duration happens in the time that the shutter is fully open, which at close to full power is never the case. Leaf shutter sync above "normal" speeds relies on very short flash duration. It is easy to prove because raising the flash power won't increase exposure (or even worse uneven exposure/heavy vignetting), leaf shutters work like an effective second aperture.

And I'd probably disagree with your definition of HSS, because it isn't "one pop within the full opening of the sensor", HSS is multiple flashes timed such that the exposure is even across the frame. I am not looking for a fight, just laying out the way it works.

I think the key is the difference between relying on very long (hypersync) or short (leaf shutters) duration flash, and pulsed "HSS" flash via modern IGBT circuitry. Hyper sync relies on long flash duration and no flashes give off even light across the duration of the exposure, though it is often even enough to be good. Leaf shutter sync relies on very fast flash duration which doesn't happen with high flash outputs.

This core difference in newer and older flash tech is where so many doors have been opened, but they have been workarounds and kludges. The plethora of new battery powered "studio" strobes like the Profoto B1 and the Phottix Indra 500 TTL, a Yongnuo version etc, all have genuine HSS IGBT pulsed flash capabilities, as could the Einstein if PCB ever decided to write the firmware.


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## RLPhoto (Sep 29, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > pwp said:
> ...


Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement

True high sync speeds - standard sync method but @ above 1/250th. (Which is still the best and most efficient but expensive.)

HSS - pulsed flash over the duration of the curtain movement. 

I think you misread my comment, all of these methods are ways of syncing at High speeds, hence HSS but the most true form is the traditional method and the others are a workaround.


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## privatebydesign (Sep 29, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement
> 
> True high sync speeds - standard sync method but @ above 1/250th. (Which is still the best and most efficient but expensive.)
> 
> HSS - pulsed flash over the duration of the curtain movement.



Agree on all counts, I'd just point out the often overlooked problem with flash duration and power output for "True high sync speeds", at this point in time full power flash pulses are not that fast, the Einstein for instance, which is often used as a perfect example of short flash duration, has a full power discharge duration of 1/588 of a second, and when we are opening up our lenses for narrow dof and balancing ambient and flash that full power can easily be used.


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## AcutancePhotography (Sep 29, 2014)

How many speedlites do you need or how many speedlites do you want? The answer may be different.


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## Quasimodo (Sep 29, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> How many speedlites do you need or how many speedlites do you want? The answer may be different.



A valid and uncomfortable question....  I guess I WANT 15x600ex rt`s which a st-e3 allows, but is way over what I will probably ever need. I am thinking that 6 would be good, and if I need more, I have some friends who have a couple each which I can borrow on account of my good looks


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## RLPhoto (Sep 29, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement
> ...


Which at full power durations are slower, you will lose some power depending on how fast your strobe is (slower the worse), and will eat up your VML battery quicker.


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## pwp (Sep 30, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement
> ...


Thanks RLPhoto & privatebydesign for posting the definitions and commentary. 

I had previously thought that HyperSync was a PocketWizard proprietory process & name. Good article here:
http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/hypersync_fpsync/

Still, language is a wild living creature, and I'd bet that the acronym HSS has gained unstoppable traction describing (correctly or incorrectly) the means of achieving flash sync at shutter speeds above standard maximum x-sync speeds. 

-pw


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## vlad (Sep 30, 2014)

A question to all you shooting with multiple speedlites. What is some good gear for getting two (or more?) into a softbox? Any specific softbox/mount/setup recommendations?


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## privatebydesign (Sep 30, 2014)

Westcott Apollo 50"
http://www.fjwestcott.com/light-modifiers/halo-apollo/apollo/50-mega-js-apollo
Very good softbox for three or six flashes.



The Lightware forusquare
http://lightwaredirect.com/foursquare/index.html
Great modifier with much functionality.

Any Parabolic umbrella, The PCB PLM range are great value.
http://www.paulcbuff.com/plm.php


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## Quasimodo (Oct 1, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> Westcott Apollo 50"
> http://www.fjwestcott.com/light-modifiers/halo-apollo/apollo/50-mega-js-apollo
> Very good softbox for three or six flashes.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the tip! So fare I have been using a tri-hotshoe and a large umbrella, but I will look into your suggestions 
While I cannot contribute to the discussion about the very nature of HSS, to me it is the ability to shoot faster than my 1Dx (and soon 7DII)´s 1/250. Hence my need for more than three 600´s


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## axtstern (Oct 1, 2014)

I'm using a patchwork/bastard family of 2 Canon 430s 2 Yongnuos and 1 Nissin.
They all work in my relative small setup without transmitters and they work well together.

Tranmitters I only use when have to add a studio strobe to power the beauty dish.

The mixed setup came because of organic growth and me being to shallow in the pockets to consolidate my setup.

Meanwhile I'm used to the setup and I like the individual strength of the system:
The rather extreme focus help of 2 Yongnuos firing, the Master abilities of the Nissin and the extra channel/group it offers and of course the solidity of the Canon speedlites.


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## AcutancePhotography (Oct 1, 2014)

Then there is Frank Doorhof, a Dutch fashion photographer, who says

If you think you need two lights, use one
If you think you need three lights, use one
If you are absolutly sure you need four lights, then you should start considering using two. 

Not sure that advice applies to every situtation but it is probably a good general rule. ;D


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## Quasimodo (Oct 1, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Then there is Frank Doorhof, a Dutch fashion photographer, who says
> 
> If you think you need two lights, use one
> If you think you need three lights, use one
> ...



Love his pictures and videos, although he shoots with the wrong system


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## meson1 (Oct 1, 2014)

I started with one 600EX-RT, just a couple of months ago. Then, because I've probably got more money than sense, I bought two more and an ST-E3-RT. And now I've just gone and ordered three Godox PB820s. And I have an off-brand octagonal softbox umbrella on the way.

I haven't even bought any light stands yet. Need to find some that are cheap but sturdy. I'm trying to find that sweet spot between cheap & flimsy and strong, but expensive.


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## jlbeck (Oct 1, 2014)

My suggestion is 3 600EX-RT and one ST-E3-RT.

Anytime you are using one 600ex and using more than half power the battery cycle time be the limiting
factor. My advice is to gang 2 600ex in that instance to reduce recycle time. So that's why you need at least 2.

I recommend a third 600ex for those times when you shoot outdoors and use HSS. Gang the 3 together
for power and cycle time.


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## meson1 (Oct 1, 2014)

My reasoning for three is that at a minimum, you'd need a key light, a fill light and a light for rim, hair or background. And that most variations over and above that could be achieved with creative positioning of lights and reflectors.


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## Besisika (Oct 1, 2014)

I think, it all depends on what you do and the assignment.
At home, I use only strobes. 
On location, one (rarely two) Einstein bounced on the ceiling and one speedlite on a stick for creative lighting is enough. I rarely pull out a second speedlite for rim (and yet I bought 6 of them). 
I simply hate changing batteries. I found it time consuming setting them up and too many variables to worry about.
I must read that Frank Doorhof guy to understand his approach. Sounds interesting.


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## Mitch.Conner (Oct 1, 2014)

I have 1 600EX-RT. I'd like to have at least 2 more with the transmitter/controller. Optimally, I see myself with 5-7 plus the controller so that I can double up on sources.

Then again, perhaps I should just get some Profotos like I've wanted for a while to replace my cheap Smith Victor "newbie" lights and leave the Speedlites at 3.


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## Halfrack (Oct 1, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement
> 
> True high sync speeds - standard sync method but @ above 1/250th. (Which is still the best and most efficient but expensive.)
> 
> ...



There is nothing 'true' or 'high sync speed' when sync'ing above 1/250th or 1/180th or even 1/60th. HSS is sync'ing multiple bursts over a curtain movement - where the sync is with the slit being exposed is perfectly timed with the speedlites. Sync'ing with a Leaf shutter doesn't involve multiple bursts.

Sync'ing with a 'slow' strobe or speedlight where your shutter speed is faster than the lights t.1 time is just that, dealing with slow lights. The issue is that you're not going to get even exposure over the frame, let alone between shots.

Now, with all that said, with the faster studio lights, like Einsteins in the fast mode, or the Bron Move2 packs that'll do a 1/10,000 flash duration, you can 'sync' at 1/125th or even slower, and 'freeze' your subject with light. Then, all sync'ing at a faster speed does is allow you to kill the ambient light.


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## RLPhoto (Oct 1, 2014)

Halfrack said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement
> ...


I don't get what your point is with this comment but whatever.


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## FTb-n (Oct 1, 2014)

Four Yongnuo YN565EXII speedlites and five Yongnuo YN-622C remotes. Maybe more.

I typically use two 60" white umbrellas (45" for outdoor shoots) with two speedlites per umbrella. In most cases, this isn't essential, but the two speedlites allow for dialing down the power to get very short recycle times. I can shoot a manual burst of 2-3 shoots without delay.

I don't use ETTL with these speedlites. I prefer the consistency of shooting in full manual and don't always trust what my meter happens to be reading. Plus, these speedlites are great in manual mode, not so great in ETTL. If ETTL is high priority, then Canon flash is a must.

The YN-622Cs work quite well with the 5D3. One could get by with cheaper remotes from Yonguo, but I like using the 5D3 menu to control the power and zoom setting of each flash (or up to three groups of flashes). This is very handy. The built-in optical slave is another option, but I use these for fill flash with some outdoor shoots. It has become easier to simply use one remote per flash and not worry about whether the optical slave flash will see the master flash.

Another option is using 1-3 speedlites on it's little stand-alone foot shoe and place them on tables to bounce off the ceiling. This all depends upon the room.

If shooting with a backdrop, I also bring two Yonguo YN460-II with two more YN-622C remotes. I particularly like blowing out white backdrops, so these speedlites work well for this.


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## pwp (Oct 2, 2014)

Halfrack said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement
> ...



Which for most of my purposes is exactly what I'm setting out to do, such as with a portrait in full daylight, or balancing a portrait subject in open shade against full daylight, or a portrait in full daylight that will benefit from being shot wide-open. With my Einsteins fired with ODS adjusted Odins I get consistent, even exposures at shutter speeds all the way to 1/8000, though usually don't need to go past 1/2000. The Godox Witstro is also clean, even and consistent. 

Freezing action with flash is another technique skill-set altogether; both are entirely valid and useful.

Whether it's correctly called HyperSync, High Speed Sync or HSS or _Crazy-Fast-Speedy-Sync_ is immaterial to me. When you understand the characteristics or shortcomings of your chosen method, it simply becomes another tool to expand your creative scope, limited only by your imagination.

-pw


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## Quasimodo (Oct 2, 2014)

I ended up buying two more, thus giving me five. My thinking is that two will service as light for the backdrop, one light for each side, and sometimes one for front beauty dish. For HSS stuff I will try my way (and my friend who has two also, giving me the possibility to use 7 at once). 

Thanks for your input


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## Gary W. (Oct 6, 2014)

Hey all,

Enough speedlights.... NEVER ENOUGH!!!!  ;D

Gary W.


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## Ivan Muller (Oct 6, 2014)

I have three Speedlights, 2x 430mk2's and 1x580mk2, plus two Yongnuo 580 equivalent manual backups. I use the three Speedlights with Hahnel ttl wireless triggers, they can also trigger the two manual flashes. I have stands and umbrella adapters for all of them. 

For groups and portraits I usually only use one light with a huge 1.4m diameter translucent umbrella. Sometimes another speedlight for hairlight and another one for the backdrop. Depends on the look but I seldom use more than three/four lights.

Enclosed a kitchen shot I did last week using the three Canon speedlights, although I think for this shot I used only two.

Group photo was done using only one light plus umbrella.

I regularly shoot at 800 to 1600iso to give my speedlights some extra power... with the 6d FF these higher iso's pose no problem.

More of my images here at: http://www.ivanmullerphotography.com/


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## Quasimodo (Oct 6, 2014)

Nice pictures Ivan. Love to see how people put up light and use them IRL. 

G.


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## skoobey (Oct 11, 2014)

7-9 is all you'll ever need, but 1 is enough.


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## jepabst (Oct 15, 2014)

4 - this question in general cracks me up, who knows!? But I'll explain why I think it's 4  --- Complex lighting when required; 

1 camera left
1 camera right
1 hair/rim

and a backup in case one breaks. Such nonsense I know. And for what it's worth, I have 3 Godox Ving, 2 Yongnuo and 1 Canon. --- so six


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## KitsVancouver (Oct 15, 2014)

I'm just an amateur photographer who mostly takes photos of my kids so I usually just have one 600EX on my camera. That said, I now have six 600EX and one ST-E3. I take a lot of photos at children parties and I like using low ISO speeds so I put stands everywhere. The place we usually have parties is very large so six lights is often not enough for those rare occasions.


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## Quasimodo (Oct 15, 2014)

KitsVancouver said:


> I'm just an amateur photographer who mostly takes photos of my kids so I usually just have one 600EX on my camera. That said, I now have six 600EX and one ST-E3. I take a lot of photos at children parties and I like using low ISO speeds so I put stands everywhere. The place we usually have parties is very large so six lights is often not enough for those rare occasions.


I would be scared that the kids would run into the lightstands...  I have settled on 5 for now, but who knows. I am also so lucky that I have a close friend who has two more if I need to borrow, as he can borrow five of me.


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## winglet (Oct 15, 2014)

jepabst said:


> 4 - this question in general cracks me up, who knows!? But I'll explain why I think it's 4  --- Complex lighting when required;
> 
> 1 camera left
> 1 camera right
> ...




I would agree with this number (4). Besides the configuration described, I have also used 2 in stripboxes for "hatchet" lighting L/R, and 2 ganged in a Foursquare as the main light. But more than four, well, my hat is off to those willing to manage the darn AA's necessary! 

An earlier post mentioned the Profoto B1 Air's, I also have two of those and they integrate well with the 600EX-RT's. In the studio I use the ST-E3 to trigger the Canon flashes and the optical slave to trigger the Profotos. Everything manual, of course. With the ST-E3 in the hotshoe and the Profoto Air Remote on a lanyard around my neck, I can tweak the power on any unit remotely, which saves a ton of time. Of course on location with other photographers with flash around, the optical slaves won't work but until now I've only used one system or the other for event stuff. I suppose I could use my (mostly dis-used now) PW Plus II's to trigger in that scenario but I haven't really had that situation.

I admit I am looking forward to testing the HSS capabilities of the Profotos when it is released.


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## wopbv4 (Nov 16, 2014)

skoobey said:


> 7-9 is all you'll ever need, but 1 is enough.



+1


Eight.

I use lastolite ezybox II softboxes.
Mainlight I use four speedlites, Fill light one, Rim/back light one, plus two for (white) background.

I know that most people think that four 600EX in main light is overkill, but I use the large 40" Octa and it gives me a lot of flexibility. The option to "tilt" one or more of the speedlites inside the softbox gives fantastic effects.


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## Joe J (Nov 16, 2014)

pwp said:


> Halfrack said:
> 
> 
> > RLPhoto said:
> ...



+1 
Freezing action is the most crucial and beneficial aspect of any of the "HyperSync, High Speed Sync or HSS" or whatever goofy acronym a company wants to utilize as a promotional tool. Yet no DSLR company has successfully addressed this to date with a camera that syncs at minimum of a 1/1000th of a second with any existing portable flash systems that actually has good light spread, powerful output (above 200w/s), and 1/2000+ t1 durations. And it seems like no other company has figured out a triggering system that works around that correctly and consistently to date. When a DSLR cam company produces a body capable of producing what I mentioned above, the holy grail of camera/ flash system compatibility will have been achieved for EVERYONE. One can only hope, though I'm not holding my breath...


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## DominoDude (Nov 16, 2014)

Not bringing anything serious to the table, but that is not stopping me.
If your subjects need to apply sun lotion before the shoot, and you tell them "-Say: 'Frizzle'"! then you probably have enough juice coming from your Speedlites.


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## JoFT (Dec 12, 2014)

Honestly: I cannot understand why to buy a 600RT from Canon... It´s so expensive... I love the Yongnuo stuff. It´s cheap and the build quality is just great value for money... I started with a Canon 430 EX-II and first some Calumet triggers and The Genesis TTL-Flash... And than I added more speedlites, Manual Yongnuos with a price of 1/10 of an 600RT... I worked with that and today I have

2 Yongnuo 560II
4 Yongnuo 560III
2 Yongnuo 568 EXII
Totally 10 Speedlites
(And 4 Bowens 500R)

The question: what do you want to light. This defines the numbers of light you need. I typically can live with 4-5 Light sources if the amount of light needs do be more. 

But before I put 2-3 600RT together on one light stand I would definitely by the Profoto B1 Location Kit...

And some more ideas: for a 2 light set up in TTL: I made some experiments here: http://www.zenfolio.com/zf/transfer/delightphoto/blog/2014/12/ttl-or-not-ttl-shooting-ttl-with-off-camera-flash


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## AcutancePhotography (Dec 12, 2014)

How many cameras/lenses/flashes do you need?

Just one more. I promise. ;D


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## RLPhoto (Dec 14, 2014)

Joe J said:


> pwp said:
> 
> 
> > Halfrack said:
> ...


Broncolor Scoro Packs + x100/Phase1 LS lenses. It's just really really really expensive.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 14, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> Joe J said:
> 
> 
> > pwp said:
> ...



You keep posting that, the Scoro 3200 has a full power t1 time of 1/285 sec, the 1600 has a t1 time at full power of 1/535, indeed its lowest power setting, that won't overpower anything but the dimmest ambient, is only 1/10,000 sec and that doesn't make it any better than an Einstein at 1/13,000 sec at lowest power. The problem of fast high powered flash is as much flash discharge time as anything else.

The only way to achieve true high shutter speed sync and flash power is to use electronic shutters and multiple flash heads used at low power.


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## RLPhoto (Dec 14, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Joe J said:
> ...


I don't think you read what I was responding to. You should really read before you post.

He mentioned a camera syncing @ 1/1000th and the flash putting out a 1/2000th duration at or above 200 w/s. Which is quite easily done with a scoro pack.


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## Lawliet (Dec 15, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> indeed its lowest power setting, that won't overpower anything but the dimmest ambient, is only 1/10,000 sec and that doesn't make it any better than an Einstein at 1/13,000 sec at lowest power. The problem of fast high powered flash is as much flash discharge time as anything else.



Be careful with that equivalency - the Scoro/Move(/Siros S) still run in ectc, even in speed mode.
OTOH it's hard to find a trigger that's fast enough to get one of those packs to be the limiting factor.

For those who don't want to go the LS route there is at least a half way solution - the D8x0 in crop mode syncs almost as fast as the HBlad leaf shutters w/o introducing noticeable black bands.


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## privatebydesign (Dec 15, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> privatebydesign said:
> 
> 
> > RLPhoto said:
> ...



Not _'quite easily'_, in Optimal Mode the Scoro S will do 150Ws at 1/2,150 sec, but as Lawliet points out Speed and Min modes also do have colour control via ECTC, this can give you an extra stop, or 300Ws. However, a single PCB Einstein will do over 300Ws at less than 1/2,000 sec in Sport mode for 1/30 the price of just the Broncolor Pack, get two and you have temp consistency too.

There is no need to spend mega bucks to achieve that, but it is very very difficult to get much better flash performance than that for any money. Flash duration is the bigger problem here, very fast shutter sync would be comparatively easy for manufacturers to implement, heck Nikon did it very nicely for Strobists in the D70, you can true sync that via the PC socket at any speed, but, the illumination it gets is still limited by the flash duration times.

So, you could achieve _"a camera syncing @ 1/1000th and the flash putting out a 1/2000th duration at or above 200 w/s"_ with a D70 and an Einstein, which would cost you less than the rental of a Broncolor kit for a shoot.

Leaf shutters are not the answer, they still have shutter petal travel times and at high speeds simply act as a second aperture, light gets through but it is vastly reduced, it is not the true shutter speed, and it determines your subject/flash illuminated dof.


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## RLPhoto (Dec 15, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > privatebydesign said:
> ...


Again he mentioned a DSLR and regardless of what you call a leaf shutter, it syncs just fine at those speeds. Just like the x100s.

And thanks for pointing out why the Einstein because it just made my previous point better. But again, a scoro pack can and will do those speeds just fine with above 200w/s in duration priority.


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## Bernd FMC (Jan 7, 2015)

Hello Speedlite Junkie´s ;D

Now my amateur Setup ist complete with 3 600EX-RTs.

2 Worked fine most of the Time, 3. is better for some additional Light´s .

Will mark my Group like Ramon .

Greetings 

Bernd


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## Quasimodo (Jan 9, 2015)

Bernd FMC said:


> Hello Speedlite Junkie´s ;D
> 
> Now my amateur Setup ist complete with 3 600EX-RTs.
> 
> ...


Happy to hear 

I did a photo-shoot this Christmas of a family of eleven. I did ok, but I am now wondering if I should add one or two  Waiting for reliable reviews on the Youngno clone 600ex rt, as they are way cheaper


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## sagittariansrock (Jan 9, 2015)

Bernd FMC said:


> Hello Speedlite Junkie´s ;D
> 
> Now my amateur Setup ist complete with 3 600EX-RTs.
> 
> ...



Are you sure you don't need an ST-E3-RT to command these three, or maybe a higher power bare bulb flash in those instances where you need to overpower the sun (not trying to mean- this is the exact state I am in...  )


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## Quasimodo (Jan 10, 2015)

sagittariansrock said:


> Bernd FMC said:
> 
> 
> > Hello Speedlite Junkie´s ;D
> ...


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## privatebydesign (Jan 10, 2015)

Quasimodo said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > Bernd FMC said:
> ...



Try the Yongnuo YN-E3-RT, that triggers 600-EX-RT's fine on third party cameras but, as you say, you don't get ETTL. But seriously, how often do you *need* ETTL? Flash exposure isn't too difficult to get, especially with multiple remote flashes, even on comparatively dynamic subjects.


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## Bernd FMC (Jan 11, 2015)

sagittariansrock said:


> Bernd FMC said:
> 
> 
> > Hello Speedlite Junkie´s ;D
> ...



I´ve got an ST-E3-RT a bit longer as my 3. 600EX-RT ;-)

Greetings Bernd


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## sulla (Jan 11, 2015)

well, there never are enough flashes. I've got an ST-E3-RT transmitter and 2 600EX speedlites. Normally that is all I need for photography in the field. The E-TTL is great.

For a mobile studio-like setup I have another pair of 2 Yongnuo manual speedlites, I just did not want to spend too much on canon speedlites. For a studio-type-of-setup the manual flashes work fine. I use them as optical slaves and also the canon flashes in M-mode.

I could borrow a 430EX2 and a 580EX2 from a friend and, should that not be enough, also a Nikon 900 from another friend, but I have never needed to do so. I once nearly had a studio-project that required this (high speed photography), but it hasn't taken place, unfortunately...

So, I have already used 4 flashes...


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## Bernd FMC (Sep 21, 2016)

Bernd FMC said:


> Now my amateur Setup ist complete with 3 600EX-RTs.



Correction - if ordered a 4th 600 EX-RT because the Version II is much more expensive and better only at refresh Time and overheating - that does not matter to me and so i have got 4 similar 600 + an 430 EX III.

Reason for the 4th ? - My Softbox is capable of using up to 4 Speedlites - and "full" the Light is evenly spread.

Also i am using Color Gels a bit more - so more Speedlites are more fun ( and better Images ? - we will see ) .

The RT System is working fine - simply using it without any Problems ( Speedlites not fixed by Canon for now because of the more than 7 Units Bug )

Greetings Bernd


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## Ozarker (Nov 3, 2016)

pwp said:


> davidson said:
> 
> 
> > I read Syl Arena's Speedliter's Handbook recently and he says, I believe, that he has 12 speedlites, and his mentor Joe Mcnally, has 17. You get when you need, I don't think there is such a thing as too many...
> ...



17 Canon 600EX-RT means either one on camera as the master and 15 lights (1 in the bull pen), or two in the bull pen if he's using an ST-E3-RT doesn't it?

I have 7x 600-EX-RT. I also got a Flashpoint Streaklight 360 (Same as Godox) with Cells II transmitters/recievers. If I could do it all over again I'd have just gotten 3 of the Streaklights. HSS is achieved through the Cells II at all flash power levels. 

Haven't used any of my Canon flashes in a long time. :'(


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## Ozarker (Nov 3, 2016)

KitsVancouver said:


> I'm just an amateur photographer who mostly takes photos of my kids so I usually just have one 600EX on my camera. That said, I now have six 600EX and one ST-E3. I take a lot of photos at children parties and I like using low ISO speeds so I put stands everywhere. The place we usually have parties is very large so six lights is often not enough for those rare occasions.



Wish I could spend a day with you to see how you set up around the room. I've often wondered how this would work. Do you just space them out around the room to light the whole place up evenly?

I've shot a few parties during the holidays in large rooms without flash. The rooms are usually fairly evenly lit with the room lights, but I still have to use slower shutter speeds and a fast lens (f/2.8). 

Then again, I would worry that even the adults would mow down a couple of stands. Worse yet, get tripped up. I've got the Nano stands to do it, just not the courage. It would be great to be able to stick them all on the walls.

Sorry, hijacking.


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## arthurbikemad (Nov 3, 2016)

17 speedlights! Thats crazy! If powered by the internal AA batteries thats 68 AAs, plus a set of spares = 136 AAs hahaha, thats some charging!!! :S  (17 8 cell chargers please Sir lol)

I have 4 in my bag (600EXRT1+ST-E3-RT triggers and a YN-E3 trigger for second curtain sync :S) and also have the ELB400 HS dual to go kit, plus a Skyport trigger for the 600's, you can hook up the Skyport to all four 600's via sync cables, use them this way for rim lighting etc, the ELB400s are great for me, tiny flash heads and pack down into my small backpack, Elinchrom Quadra Octa also packs down super small for location stuff, also easy to hold for hours if needed by an assistant. I also use Sekonic meter with skyport trigger to meter my lights, old fashioned way perhaps but I like to see ratios and percentage of ambient. 

I love my speedlights but AA's do my nut in, lugging around 32 (16 spare) batteries is a pain! Plus 2 and spares for the ST-E3-RT! Also nothing recycles like a portable studio strobe, things have come a long way over the years, perhaps in time hotshoe speedlights will get smaller, more powerful and even have model lights for what they are I do feel 600EX-RTs are bulky.


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## Ozarker (Nov 3, 2016)

arthurbikemad said:


> 17 speedlights! Thats crazy! If powered by the internal AA batteries thats 68 AAs, plus a set of spares = 136 AAs hahaha, thats some charging!!! :S  (17 8 cell chargers please Sir lol)
> 
> I have 4 in my bag (600EXRT1+ST-E3-RT triggers and a YN-E3 trigger for second curtain sync :S) and also have the ELB400 HS dual to go kit, plus a Skyport trigger for the 600's, you can hook up the Skyport to all four 600's via sync cables, use them this way for rim lighting etc, the ELB400s are great for me, tiny flash heads and pack down into my small backpack, Elinchrom Quadra Octa also packs down super small for location stuff, also easy to hold for hours if needed by an assistant. I also use Sekonic meter with skyport trigger to meter my lights, old fashioned way perhaps but I like to see ratios and percentage of ambient.
> 
> I love my speedlights but AA's do my nut in, lugging around 32 (16 spare) batteries is a pain! Plus 2 and spares for the ST-E3-RT! Also nothing recycles like a portable studio strobe, things have come a long way over the years, perhaps in time hotshoe speedlights will get smaller, more powerful and even have model lights for what they are I do feel 600EX-RTs are bulky.



Exactly this. The AAs are heavy as heck!


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Nov 3, 2016)

We have a local Pawn Shop with a huge reader board. 

It Says:

If you know how many guns you have, then you don't own enough!

I assume they are referring to flashguns, of course


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## Ozarker (Nov 3, 2016)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> We have a local Pawn Shop with a huge reader board.
> 
> It Says:
> 
> ...



I put flash suppressors on mine to control the lighting. Mine only work manually. No auto.


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## geekpower (Nov 9, 2016)

can anybody comment on the practicality of using multiple lights in amateur settings? not people coming to you for portraits, but you whipping out the camera and lights to take pics of family and friends. will they hold still long enough to get set up?


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 10, 2016)

Given the expertise evident in this thread I'm wondering if someone would offer a suggestion for my situation. 

During short daylight winter days I like to shoot birds from a blind set up. Presently, I have only two 600 RTs one a foot or so off camera, cabled and one external where I perceive it is likely to provide fill or frontal lighting of the bird. Midday, fill works but a little later it tends to be all flash.

I was close to another used 600 but wouldn't pay the price he was asking. I've really wondered if I'd be OK with a transmitter and just the two flashes completely away from the camera. The third flash was to have been directed at background lighting of trees.

Go easy, I'm a beginner trying hard to learn. 

Jack


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## arthurbikemad (Nov 10, 2016)

Jack if you have 600RTs then a radio transmitter is a must have, the YN ST E3 is good value over the Canon and offers second curtain sync, so you could get motion blur leading to frozen images rather then the other way round, if you wanted to expose for the ambient light then shutter speeds can still be an issue when light is low, if you want fill in brighter light and shutter speeds higher than 1/250 (on your 1DX2) then you can use HSS with the 600s but power is reduced, setting up the lights where they will give fill flash and get the shot is down to planning your birds, lights and feeders, tricky, one guy of late spent years waiting for two kingfishers to land in a river/branch with a fish and pass it to the another bird, he used two speedlights, remote shutter and so on. Also don't forget you can use the speedlight to freeze the action, but consideration for ambient light is needed as moto blur can still be an issue. My advise is limited and if anyone want to correct me should my advise be poor please do, many on here are far more experienced than me.


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 10, 2016)

Thanks Arthur,

I did want advice regarding whether to get the YN ST E3. I've spent so much of late I fear asking my dear wife for more even though she generally says yes. 

That would give me more flexibility with the two flashes. I'm still wondering if 3 would be more ideal relative to background, which preferably would not have that black look of a single camera flash. I'm talking about shooting out of an opening in the roof of a shed so it is challenging to position the flashes but I have some extendable jigs set up. I have various props - generally stumps or tree branches and the birds like the area since there are some nice big trees.

I have used HSS with success and I guess the biggest frustration is not having multi-fps. I've posted this shot before but you may not have seen it, it's with fill flash and illustrates the landscape I've got.

On the shed, If you look closely you'll see the camera on a gimbal facing out the opposite direction. The door on the right is another option for shooting. I have one way mirror for viewing ease

Jack


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## privatebydesign (Nov 10, 2016)

You're up late Jack! I'm up early and in yet another airport 

Anyway. At your distances I don't believe another flash on camera would make much difference, especially in HSS, though with a better Beamer it might lift shadows slightly 

Generally I'd say get an extra flash over the ST-E2-RT, it just gives you more choices. Also i find it much easier to use a flash on camera due to the screen and button orientation


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## Mikehit (Nov 10, 2016)

Jack - Glenn Bartley has several e-books on his site and one is about using flash for bird photography.
I have just bought it myself and as a new comer to flash photography myself it is looking pretty good. 

http://www.glennbartley.com/FlashEbook.html


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 10, 2016)

Thanks guys. Mike, update me on the book after you've spent a little more time with it and I'll probably get it.

I understand a flash is more useful than just a transmitter but it's more bulky, right?

Jack


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 11, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> Jack - Glenn Bartley has several e-books on his site and one is about using flash for bird photography.
> I have just bought it myself and as a new comer to flash photography myself it is looking pretty good.
> 
> http://www.glennbartley.com/FlashEbook.html



By the way, how did the rental go?

Jack


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## Mikehit (Nov 11, 2016)

I'm still checking out the files - I hope to do that this weekend. Ain't it a bitch when work gets in the way of photography.


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## Jack Douglas (Nov 11, 2016)

Mikehit said:


> I'm still checking out the files - I hope to do that this weekend. Ain't it a bitch when work gets in the way of photography.



I know, it ruined my whole summer and fall!

Jack


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## Besisika (Nov 11, 2016)

geekpower said:


> can anybody comment on the practicality of using multiple lights in amateur settings? not people coming to you for portraits, but you whipping out the camera and lights to take pics of family and friends. will they hold still long enough to get set up?


No, they won't hold still. The essential of these photos are not technicality (correct) but to capture the moment. If you have a wedding photographer friend he will have better explanation for you.
My approach is based on color temperature and a two lighting setup, at max 3 but that is (I consider) an exaggeration.
For a two lighting setup, I always use the strongest available light, and I use a flash to kill the other one; the purpose is to remove color cast. 
If window light is strong enough then I expose for it (main light) and use a flash to compensate. By this I mean, if time permits I would have a flash on a stick (lightstand and a receiver) and I put it on the opposite side of window light; I have it in TTL and I regulate its power via exposure compensation. The first shoot is a test, the second is the right one. If time doesn't permit then I would have it on camera and bounce it of ceiling or wall.
If window light is weak, then I gel my flash to match room light color. I use the flash as main light and room light as fill/hair.
Sometimes, the room is too big, then I might end up using a strobe and a lot of calculation based on distance (and most of the time I have to fix it in post). I know that some strobes have TTL nowadays but mine are still manual.

In 3 lighting set up, I use a second flash as a background or hair light; but again I use this very rarely.
Hope that helps to start with.


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## geekpower (Nov 11, 2016)

Besisika said:


> geekpower said:
> 
> 
> > can anybody comment on the practicality of using multiple lights in amateur settings? not people coming to you for portraits, but you whipping out the camera and lights to take pics of family and friends. will they hold still long enough to get set up?
> ...



thanks. kindof what i thought.

currently using a single 430iii on camera for fill outdoors, and bounce indoors, usually with the orange gel that came with it. it's already making a big difference, but when the walls are too close or too far to get the bounce i want, or direct is crushing the detail too much, it makes me want to get the flash off camera. i figure that whether i do that with a stand and a cable, or a stand and a 2nd flash to use as a transmitter, i'm going to have the same frustration of people not being patient with me. perfectionism is a curse.


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## Ozarker (Nov 11, 2016)

geekpower said:


> Besisika said:
> 
> 
> > geekpower said:
> ...



I don't know exactly your situation, but why not set up with the flashes at your intended shot location ahead of time and then ask everyone to step up as a group? I've never done a group shot, but that is what I would do.

If the shots are more candid then the flash could still be set up ahead of time.

On another note: I still wish there were a way to stick flashes to the walls, out of harms way.


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## geekpower (Nov 11, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I don't know exactly your situation, but why not set up with the flashes at your intended shot location ahead of time and then ask everyone to step up as a group? I've never done a group shot, but that is what I would do.
> 
> If the shots are more candid then the flash could still be set up ahead of time.
> 
> On another note: I still wish there were a way to stick flashes to the walls, out of harms way.



could work. maybe i could get a mannequin head or something for test shots before people show up.


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## Ozarker (Nov 15, 2016)

geekpower said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know exactly your situation, but why not set up with the flashes at your intended shot location ahead of time and then ask everyone to step up as a group? I've never done a group shot, but that is what I would do.
> ...



Funny you should say that: I've even thought of buying a mannequin to proctice portrait lighting.

Actually, I think anything would work just to get the exposure correct.


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## Valvebounce (Nov 15, 2016)

Hi CanonFanBoy. 
My photography buddies and I sat a teddy bear in the chair to practice with dual flash setting ratios etc sort of working through / with the Strobist 101 book. The cat got peed off after a couple of shots, ??? but she did jump in the chair before we could put the bear in it! ;D

Cheers, Graham. 



CanonFanBoy said:


> geekpower said:
> 
> 
> > CanonFanBoy said:
> ...


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## Ozarker (Nov 20, 2016)

Valvebounce said:


> Hi CanonFanBoy.
> My photography buddies and I sat a teddy bear in the chair to practice with dual flash setting ratios etc sort of working through / with the Strobist 101 book. The cat got peed off after a couple of shots, ??? but she did jump in the chair before we could put the bear in it! ;D
> 
> Cheers, Graham.
> ...



LOL! Great idea that bear.


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## neuroanatomist (Nov 20, 2016)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Funny you should say that: I've even thought of buying a mannequin to proctice portrait lighting.



Radio-triggered selfies.


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## Don Haines (Nov 20, 2016)

neuroanatomist said:


> CanonFanBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Funny you should say that: I've even thought of buying a mannequin to proctice portrait lighting.
> ...



My technique is impeccable and yields perfect lighting..... Let me explain it to you....

Step 1: call out "Hey Judy.... How do I do this?"
Step 2: stand back and watch.....


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## Valvebounce (Nov 20, 2016)

Hi Don. 
That is so funny and so true for so many of us. 
I think this is today's quote of the day! 

Cheers, Graham. 



Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > CanonFanBoy said:
> ...


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## whvick (Dec 13, 2016)

I am an amateur with a 20D, 50D, and 5D. I was getting by ok a 430ex, but got a chance to pick up an old 550ex, 420ex, and 90ex. Tonight at a Christmas dinner I put the 550 diffused on 5d camera and slaved the 430 and 420. Wow was it better!
In the famous words of Larry the Cucumber when asked how many of a certain toy did he need, he replied, " I donno. How many are there? "
Realistically for me these old flashes are enough, but I can certainly see how you pros and serious amateurs could use a bagful. 
So I guess I would say the more the merrier
whvick


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