# 1DXm2 Live View with EF85f/1.2L USM II in extreme low light.



## Neutral (Jun 18, 2016)

Had some time today to play with 1DXm2 live shooting mode using EF85f/1.2L USM II.
So far I was very pleased with the results. 

This was good surprise which I did not think about when making decision to get 1DXm2.
Fully opened (at f/1.2) system is focusing very fast, absolutely accurate almost in full darkness when it is almost not possible to see anything (at f1.2 with EV set to minus 1 auto ISO goes to 51200 and higher). Even though camera able to find the faces instantly and track selected face (it is possible to switch over using joystick). What I see Live View AF works very accurate with the sensor noise at ISO 51200 which is always problematic for any on sensor AF. 
In general the less signal SNR the less accurate AF results.
But 1DXm2 does very well in such situations.

So now there is no need any more to put 85f1.2 on Sony a7S or A7r2 to use it in very dim conditions and get accurate focus.
And Live View AF on 1DXm2 in such low light conditions is working very fast.
Before 1DXm2 best results for 85f1.2 were when it was put on Sony A7R2 using Metabone IV adaptor. On 1DX all that above was practically not possible and not practical.

Now 1DXm2 is surpassing A7R2 is LiveView AF speed in very dim conditions (for EF85f1.2) and the only remaining advantage of A7R2 is IBIS allowing to use Shutter Speed around 1/20 -1/30 sec.
But that is only useful for static object, for moving ones it is still required to have shutter speed faster than 1/100 . The only thing that 1DXm2 still cannot catch up is the eye AF available on A7r2 with native lenses. Once get used to this lack of this feature on any other camera is very limiting , especially at wide aperture below 1.8. On the other hand 1DXm2 face tracking works very well so for apertures from 1.8 and above this is more that enough.

There are two modes in 1DXm2 Live view – one with face detection and object tracking and the other is FlexiZoneAF. Both working very well and each has its own applications.
There are also two silent modes in Live View, not sure what is difference – but mode 2 seems to be a bit less noisy.

As a summary – if anyone wants to get absolute image sharpness when using any lens then 1DXm2 Live View is now the best mode for that. Basically 1DXm2 is now on par with the best mirrorless systems when using on sensor AF. It could be used now at full extent for most general still photography shooting applications and only for sports and fast actions or wildlife and BIFs it is still better to use dedicated AF sensor, or when battery life is critical as in Live View battery consumption is significantly higher.
In general from what I see 1DXm2 is now much more versatile, flexible and much more useful camera than 1DX.


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## Dylan777 (Jun 18, 2016)

Thanks for feedbacks Neutral 

I like to shoot with back screen and your feedbacks got me interested in upgrading to mrk II


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## Neutral (Jun 19, 2016)

One interesting thing – though Canon did some progress in providing better functionality for Live View mode but they missed (or overlooked) very big concept which could drastically improve camera flexibility and camera perception. This is my feeling after using 1DXm2 Live View mode for some time.

I do not know who was shortsighted – marketing team or development team or they knew all that but intentionally cut off some very useful functionality (usual for them). The most important thing is that they have all required “ingredients” to do that but could not see (or did not wanted to see) the whole picture how all that could be used in the best way.

This concept is very simple and could be very welcomed by the many people in the photographic community.
This is HYBRID Camera concept – to have combination of the best functionality from the traditional DSLR camera design concepts and from the mirrorless camera design concepts.

When using dedicated AF sensor and mirror (traditional DSLR mode) – 1DXm2 is already the best one.
But in Mirrorless Mode (Live View mode) functionality is still very limited despite that camera has very capable dual-pixel PDAF sensor and enough of the embedded processing power do all required.
So let’s use all that to full extent and provide the same or better functionality compared to Sony A7R2 and other best mirrorless cameras on the market.

And there are not too many things to add.
This includes pre shot AF ON/OFF, continuous AF tracking (when shutter button is half pressed or pressed down in continuous shooting mode), more AF modes, including eye AF which is extremely useful feature. If Sony could do all that in very small A7R2 body then why Canon could not do the same for their mirrorless mode (Live View mode) in much bigger body?
The other important feature (but this one is not easy one to implement) is the hybrid Optical/Electronic Viewfinder (basically EFV overlay for Live View mode). This could be also extremely useful.

With all that for so many people this could be the optimal solution using best of the both worlds (DSLR and mirrorless) – no need to buy separate mirrorless camera to get best from mirrorless mode of operation (unless you need small walk-around camera).

What is important 1DXm2 already has all the hardware components to do required (except for hybrid viewfinder) and become the best camera. They only need to add some additional code in their firmware. 

Imagine how many people would be happy with that and would not mind even to pay some additional cost (me included).
Sometimes I do not see much logic and good understanding of customers needs in Canon way of making design decisions for their product.
For 1DXm2 X in the flagship camera name denotes extreme capabilities and this should include mirrorless mode of operation which should be also utilized to the extreme limits or go beyond them.
Doing so there would be no need to go to pure mirrorless camera design. 
Hybrid Camera Concept is much more interesting and promising for me. 
There are so many different possibilities when using dedicated AF sensor and Canon included one of them – additional IR layer which they use now for better intelligent AF tracking in DSLR operational mode. 


The other thing is video mode – this is still very limited – especially ability to select preferred codec and coding scheme. 
Also lack of modern H.265 (HEVC) is very disappointing.
1DXm2 4K mode using MJPEG (where each video frame is full separate JPEG image) is giving extremely high output volume of data –ridiculously high. This mode is good when shooting sport (short clips) and then extracting selected frames to separate images. 
For general video use of H.265 could give better quality for much smaller data output twice less than for MPEG4.
Also no S-Log feature.

It might be that Canon just does not want to pay licenses royalties but this could be incorporated in camera cost. I would not mind to pay some additional money for that.
So by now for me best and most flexible video cameras for personal use are still Sony A7S and A7R2


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## Nakean (Jun 22, 2016)

Neutral said:


> One interesting thing – though Canon did some progress in providing better functionality for Live View mode but they missed (or overlooked) very big concept which could drastically improve camera flexibility and camera perception. This is my feeling after using 1DXm2 Live View mode for some time.
> 
> I do not know who was shortsighted – marketing team or development team or they knew all that but intentionally cut off some very useful functionality (usual for them). The most important thing is that they have all required “ingredients” to do that but could not see (or did not wanted to see) the whole picture how all that could be used in the best way.
> 
> ...



Not sure about everything else but this specific codec is used because the body is sealed and probably has horrible heat dissipation as a result. Therefore, the camera must use a codec that uses very little compression(processing power) to achieve 4k at both 24, 25, 29, and 60p. 

Here's to hoping the new 5D doesn't have the same limitation.


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## Neutral (Jun 22, 2016)

Nakean said:


> Not sure about everything else but this specific codec is used because the body is sealed and probably has horrible heat dissipation as a result. Therefore, the camera must use a codec that uses very little compression(processing power) to achieve 4k at both 24, 25, 29, and 60p.
> 
> Here's to hoping the new 5D doesn't have the same limitation.



Yes , H.265 is heavy computing codec but I do not think that 1DXm2 does not support it due to heat dissipation issues, most probably due to high licensing fees.

Samsung NX1 has H.265 in much smaller body since day one and it was released almost 2 yeas back.
Two years is a big gap for current technology evolution speed.


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## kaihp (Jun 22, 2016)

Neutral said:


> Nakean said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure about everything else but this specific codec is used because the body is sealed and probably has horrible heat dissipation as a result. Therefore, the camera must use a codec that uses very little compression(processing power) to achieve 4k at both 24, 25, 29, and 60p.
> ...



FWIW, the Ambarella A9 SoC does 4K H.264 in <2W, in a 32nm process node and was announced in January 2013(link).

Their H12/H2 SoC's does 4K30p/4K60p in H.265 and were both announced this January (2016). The Wikipedia page claims that they are 14nm designs, but I haven't seen a power number.


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## Bennie_CanonShooter (Jun 23, 2016)

CANON likes to do product segmentation in practically ALL their product lines.

Their flagship 1D series included  - Yes... I hold off buying the 1D for so long, I kept using my 1D Mark II and Mark IIN, even to this day I still have them - when the 1DX was announced - marketed as the unifier of the 1D series 1.3x and FF - I bought one (only to be dismayed by FW 1 terrible AF in low light).

After that.... I dont buy in to the marketing of Canon anymore - I buy what I like- regardless of brand or product lines.

example - 5DS/R - which I almost bought but glad i waited - when the 80D was announced - the sensor is 24mp
which has a higher pixel density than the 5DS/R in 1.6x crop mode (19mp for the 5DS/R). at 1/3 the price, with DPAF, tilt screen and touch, wifi included 

that is just one example

CANON likes to separate their own products by giving some and taking some that even the 1DX2 is limited in video compared to the 80D in ease of use and practicality.

I am also with you in regard to using the A7Rii - both systems has its own limitation but as to where everything stands right now - I am pretty much ready to pre-order a A7R3 the very first moment its made available 

I have use the 85L2 with the 1DX and the A7 series with metabone speed booster blow the 1DX away in AF consistency. - considering the 1DX is pretty much a flagship still to this day with the 1DX2, missed AF is NOT acceptable - especially when a third party camera paired with a third party adapter performs mmuch much better.

what a shame CANON.... and for those who did OFF CAMERA flash way way back - early 2006ish - you know how bad the ETTL of the 580EXii flashes where in wireless mode. I spend close to 4 thousand in flashes and radio poppers, pocket wizards.... 

The only really good thing in CANON that I havent regret investing in is GLASS  

but even that is changing soon. I just bought a Zeiss 135 f/2.0 a few months back and is very nice. No AF - but better to do manual and knowing you nailed the AF yourself than think you got beautiful shoots and come home in dismay looking at the soft photos 1/3 or more in the computer. - I have lots of clients photo sessions that end up like this btw. nice moments captured, perfect smiles and expression, only the 85L and 1DX fuc#$%^& it up - LOL.

in the next coming years - I will invest more on Zeiss Milvus primes and Profoto and if I NEED VIDEO - I will use a proper video CAM  which the XF300 is very good at (for those who havent used one - I suggest to give it a try) it doesnt shoot 4K, but 4K is like a driver who says he need a turbo charger driving around town since He might think he needs it at the stop light. In real world usage - 1080P is very practical, economical - ( same thing which people driving F-150's to pick up their kids or go get groceries - how many trucks do you see hauling stuff everyday?? same thing with 4K imho)


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## Neutral (Jun 23, 2016)

Bennie_CanonShooter said:


> CANON likes to do product segmentation in practically ALL their product lines.
> 
> Their flagship 1D series included  - Yes... I hold off buying the 1D for so long, I kept using my 1D Mark II and Mark IIN, even to this day I still have them - when the 1DX was announced - marketed as the unifier of the 1D series 1.3x and FF - I bought one (only to be dismayed by FW 1 terrible AF in low light).
> 
> ...



Very interesting feedback from working Pro sharing real experience.
And your site is also very nice and interesting.
The same attitude as mine – I am indifferent to the brand names - use whatever which I find best for my needs and pleasure. Still strongly tied with Canon L glass, which is excellent.

Since I bought ef85f1.2L II shortly after it was released long time back I was never satisfied how it works on Canon bodies wide open (regarding AF). When stopped down that was excellent – especially color rendering. Even on 1DsIII and 1DX when used wide open it was very limited and a bit frustrating – one could rely only on central double precision focusing points and lens needed AFMA. However, when I got A7R2 and got Metabone IV instead of Metabone III situation changed drastically. Only with this combo 85f1.2 became pleasure to use. Also it was very good on A7S. Since then I was using 85f1.2 only with the A7R2, the same as Canon TSE17.
Now on 1DXm2 using Live View this 85f1.2L performs as desired - fast and extremely accurate even in verylow light conditions – now better and faster than on A7R2 with Metabone adaptor.

I wish that Canon could reconsider concept of Live View mode.
Before now Live View mode was considered just as complementary mode to DSLR mode.
As result, it had very limited functionality conceptually by design.

Now it is time to change Live View mode to fully functional Mirrorless Mode with the same or better full functionality compared to other best mirrorless cameras on the market. Everything for this is ready now.
Also, change name from Live View mode to Mirrorless mode to highlight change in design approach. 

As result, we could have Hybrid Camera with equal capabilities in both DSLR and Mirrorless operational modes.

If I be the head of their design team or providing consultancy to them, I would put a lot of pressure on the team to get this done.
Unfortunately, this is out of reality and I am not sure that Canon ever read this and ever consider this for implementation.
May be someone else will do this – here I am pretty sure that this will happen sooner or later giving DSLR market more strength to protect themselves from pure mirrorless camera manufactures which are very aggressive in their efforts to bite more share from DSLR cameras market.


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## Jack Douglas (Jun 24, 2016)

What I'm reading here makes good sense to me. In spite of comments such as Neuro makes, I think Canon is going to find themselves with fewer and fewer customers in the future if they don't adapt. My needs are presently met by Canon and I won't be switching but locally I see quite a few who are.

Brand loyalty is natural but kind of foolish in many respects.

Jack


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## Neutral (Jun 24, 2016)

Jack Douglas said:


> What I'm reading here makes good sense to me. In spite of comments such as Neuro makes, I think Canon is going to find themselves with fewer and fewer customers in the future if they don't adapt. My needs are presently met by Canon and I won't be switching but locally I see quite a few who are.
> 
> Brand loyalty is natural but kind of foolish in many respects.
> 
> Jack



I am afraid that Canon underestimates threats for them from technology evolutions trends in this particular area and accelerating speed of this evoluion. There is more to see before the end of this year – especially some highly anticipated products from Sony (e.g.A9) utilizing new sensor technologies. I have some expectations – will see if that comes true – especially regarding new BSI stacked sensor in A9 and improvements in high ISO performance and AF performance. If that happens – it will be very difficult to resist buying one.

Another thing is recent Hasselblad X1D announcement.
What I see in many comments around internet that most of the people underestimate or do not understand what does it mean and focus on current camera limitations and native lens selection.
From my point of view, this is major breakthrough and this marks beginning of the new era in photography. 
However, this is another topic.


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## hayden (Jul 9, 2016)

Neutral said:


> Jack Douglas said:
> 
> 
> > What I'm reading here makes good sense to me. In spite of comments such as Neuro makes, I think Canon is going to find themselves with fewer and fewer customers in the future if they don't adapt. My needs are presently met by Canon and I won't be switching but locally I see quite a few who are.
> ...



My dilemma:

If you were starting all over right now with $10,000, what would you choose between:

1) Canon 1DX mark 2 + (24-70mm 2.8 + 85mm 1.2) 
or 
2) Sony (A7R II + A7S II) + (G-master 24-70mm 2.8 & 85mm 1.4)

I have read tons of reviews and I am tortured. I need a camera that can do basically everything for fashion: studio, street, runway, videos (thus the A7S II).

If not for the runway, I wouldn't need the burst speed of the 1DX2.

I am primarily concerned with: 

1. Sony system longevity -- I don't want Sony to create yet another mount system making all previous bodies and lens incompatible
2. A7R II and S II focussing ability for rapidly walking runway models coming at me (photo and video). 
3. Not that I really need 4K 60fps video, but the 1DX2 has it, while the Sonys are limited to 4K 30fps 
4. Lack of touchscreen on Sonys (why given how they are supposed to be the vanguard of new tech in the camera industry right now??!!) 
5. I figure other miscellaneous costs will equal out, e.g.: battery grips for Sonys vs the insane cost for CFast cards

Initially I was leaning toward the two Sonys over the 1DX2, but after testing our the A7r 2, I found the lag from the buffer and other operations a bit unbearable (granted I wasn't using the fastest SD card, but I read that even with fast SD cards there is a tremendous lag that will cause missed shots)

I have a gut feeling that Sony might make me happier once the A7r 3 addresses more shortcomings of the A7r 2, but I need a new system NOW.

What would be your advice on choosing a new system?


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## Neutral (Jul 9, 2016)

hayden said:


> Neutral said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Douglas said:
> ...



This is not an easy choice, especially taking into account possible new announcements soon.

I solved that for myself long time back by just having both systems – 1DXm2 and Sony A7r2 (also older 1DX and A7S) – they are best complements to each other and A7r2 works perfectly well with Canon glass.
Both are excellent ones for their intended use.
1DXm2 for fast actions, sports, events etc. and a7r2 for stills and slow actions.

With 1DXm2, my Canon EF85 f/1.2 got second life on the Canon body and became as easy to use (in live view mode) as it was on A7r2.

From your list, I would rather use 1DXm2 for runways (to have results that are 100% predictable) and A7r2 for all the rest.
If having both systems is not possible, I would rather stick to 1DXm2 for now – this is almost perfect camera in all respects for critical paid jobs.

For studio A7r2 is obvious choice – image quality is much better than from any canon bodies (including 1DXm2) plus eye AF with native glass is very important advantage. I wish that Canon could do the same for 1DXm2 via FW upgrade – they have all required for that in 1DXm2.
I used A7r2 with for people walking in front of me and even using Canon 100-400+ EX1.4mIII with Metabone adapter results were good. As I am hobbyist then for me, it is not critical if some shots are missed but for paid jobs (fashion, events, sports), I would still recommend using 1DXm2 for now.

As walk around and general use camera, A7r2 is much more convenient and resulting images are superb.

If time were not critical, I would rather wait until September for new Sony and Canon announcements (A9 from Sony and 5DmIV from Canon before making any choice). My expectations that new Sony A9 will be significant leap forward in all respects (sensor tech for IQ , high ISO performance and professional graded AF) so it might be close to 1DXm2 regarding AF but at least one generation (or more) ahead in sensor technology. Paired with new G-Master glass this could be top performing combo and possibly the best choice for you.

On the other hand, Canon with 5DmIV should be also up to all your requirements and would cost significantly less than Sony A9 with G-Master lenses.


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