# Flagship EOS R camera coming in February ahead of CP+? [CR1]



## Canon Rumors Guy (Oct 2, 2018)

> **Update** To update the information below, we’re told that the “Canon EOS R Pro” would receive a development announcement in January 2019, ahead of an official launch at a later date.
> We’re told that a “full-blown” Canon EOS R camera will be coming sometime in February 2019 ahead of CP+, which begins on February 28.
> There are obviously no specifications for the camera this far in advance of an announcement, but we’ve been told on a couple of occasions that a new EOS R camera would be coming in the first quarter of 2019.
> More to come…



Continue reading...


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## bitm2007 (Oct 2, 2018)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...



Flagship so that will be a mirrorless 1D style camera, so unlikely to be high mega pixel.


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## Proscribo (Oct 2, 2018)

bitm2007 said:


> Flagship so that will be a mirrorless 1D style camera, so unlikely to be high mega pixel.


What makes you think that? It could (and I guess it would make more sense at this point) to be 1Ds type camera, as I doubt they could match 1DxII's speed right now. Besides it would make more sense for a high-res body to be mirrorless for example thanks to more accurate AF, no?


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## SteveCheetham (Oct 2, 2018)

Why equate 'flagship' to be a 1d series equivalent. More likely to be a high MP model surely, a 5DSR equivalent? This would compete directly with the Nikon Z7.


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## stochasticmotions (Oct 2, 2018)

If we see A7RIII capabilities in a body that I can use my 500f4 and I'm in. Unless Sony comes up with a stacked sensor version of the A7RIII with full electronic shutter as good as the A9 (dreaming there as well) by that time.


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## docsmith (Oct 2, 2018)

Yep...this makes sense. It will be interesting to see what direction "flagship" goes.

Based on the observed certification, there is a FF 26 MP mirrorless camera coming. If this holds and it is a "flagship" I would imagine this is more of a high fps/action/sports body. If so, that would imply Canon thinks they have the goods to make AF match that use, which is good news.

Then, considering the rest of the market (Sony/Nikon) seems to be going high MP/lower MP with their bodies. So, a "flagship" could be a high MP body.


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## jeffa4444 (Oct 2, 2018)

Canon technician at Photokina told me that the EOS R with either the RF 50mm f1.2L or the RF 28-70mm f2L gave results similar to the 5DS. If that's the case and given that both Sony & Nikon have cameras in the 40+ MP range, an EOS R Pro camera to be the spiritual successor to the 5DS / 5DSr would make a lot of sense. Personally I don't think this should be the prototype 120MP sensor, staying around 50MP mark is way more than enough and keeps shutter speeds manageable.


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## ecpu (Oct 2, 2018)

The 26MP could be the so-called flagship. Maybe the 6DII sensor is actually a good sensor capable of decent dynamic range, but was held back in order to segment the 6DII. If such a sensor exists and they use it in a high fps fast autofocus body with REAL video specs, it could be a winner. But then again it's Canon, so a body like that would probably be priced at $6000 so it's hard to say whether or not it would be worth it vs. the competition.


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## zonoskar (Oct 2, 2018)

Proscribo said:


> What makes you think that? It could (and I guess it would make more sense at this point) to be 1Ds type camera, as I doubt they could match 1DxII's speed right now. Besides it would make more sense for a high-res body to be mirrorless for example thanks to more accurate AF, no?


Canon have said AF takes 0.05s on the Digic 8 processor of the current EOS-R. The Digic 8 in the EOS-R must also perform other tasks, so presumably, that's why the burst speed is so low. So 2 Digic 8 processors should be able to perform 20 fps and also the other tasks in parallel. It's not unheard of for Canon to put 2 Digic processors in a camera, so that could be a real possibility for the EOS-R.


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## ecpu (Oct 2, 2018)

zonoskar said:


> Canon have said AF takes 0.05s on the Digic 8 processor of the current EOS-R. The Digic 8 in the EOS-R must also perform other tasks, so presumably, that's why the burst speed is so low. So 2 Digic 8 processors should be able to perform 20 fps and also the other tasks in parallel. It's not unheard of for Canon to put 2 Digic processors in a camera, so that could be a real possibility for the EOS-R.


This goes without saying...

Canon's processors are not known to be the most powerful or speedy chips out there, this is why (well partly) that there are so many limitations with video shooting.

Canon needs multicore CPU's or simply double up like on the 1DX II. I think we will definitely be seeing more than one CPU in any mirrorless that has real video specs and/or high speed stills capture.


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## YuengLinger (Oct 2, 2018)

"Full blown" is in quotes. Who used "flagship," CR Guy?


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## amorse (Oct 2, 2018)

This will be interesting. I guess the real question is whether or not they go to the high MP or high speed market next. Part of me selfishly believes that they'll go for the high MP market based on camera pricing alone. They have no mirrorless body in the 3K range (i.e. in a 5D/5DSr territory pricing) and I can't help but think they'd wait to release a high-speed body until some longer RF glass is ready for market.


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## jolyonralph (Oct 2, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> Canon technician at Photokina told me that the EOS R with either the RF 50mm f1.2L or the RF 28-70mm f2L gave results similar to the 5DS.



Canon salesman, more likely. Sharper lenses don't magically create more megapixels on a sensor that's smaller than the 5DS/5DSR. Sure, if you're using a sub-standard lens on the 5DSR and comparing it with the EOS R you're going to get poor results. But a good lens on the 5DSR will outperform any option on the EOS R right now in terms of resolution.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Oct 2, 2018)

IBIS, Dual Card Slots, Joystick, high resolution sensor, faster readout and processing would be nice.


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## Aaron D (Oct 2, 2018)

I hope they don't call it the 'R Pro". How cheesy would that be?


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## criscokkat (Oct 2, 2018)

ecpu said:


> This goes without saying...
> 
> Canon's processors are not known to be the most powerful or speedy chips out there, this is why (well partly) that there are so many limitations with video shooting.
> 
> Canon needs multicore CPU's or simply double up like on the 1DX II. I think we will definitely be seeing more than one CPU in any mirrorless that has real video specs and/or high speed stills capture.


I can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure some site mentioned that Canon was setting up a new production line for their processors that can produce a much smaller die. Right now the digic 8 processors are somewhere around a 35-40nm process. Most new phones use somewhere around a 10nm process, and most 'cheap' phones using previous years processes are still around 23nm or smaller. 

Just shrinking the die means they can put twice as many transistors in the same amount of space, or they can choose to just keep the number the same and have less power consumption and greater speed. A combination of the two could lead to some very speedy digic processors. 

However the size of the actual sensor is hard to shrink at this point, because of the physics of light. That's why stacking the processors can be so effective, as the signal can travel backwards to a corresponding set of transistors to do initial processing rather than through a trace all the way to the edge of the board before being handed off to those transistors. (this is different than Foveon's use of the term 'stacked', where they actually stack the sensors themselves to capture more light).

I'd lean towards a 1dx style camera in 1st quarter with dual digic or a new die-shrunk digic 9. I hope we will see one of their new stacked sensors in production soon though because that opens the door to 4k/8k 120fps. Right now they can't do that because of the heat and bandwidth. Smaller processes for the stacked portion of the die and external digics mean more bandwidth + less power which equals less heat.


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## transpo1 (Oct 2, 2018)

If true, this is not a surprise...they were first trying to hit a price point closer to the Sony A7III and Nikon Z6 and make a splash to test the market while dissuading people from jumping to the other brands.


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## ecpu (Oct 2, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> I can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure some site mentioned that Canon was setting up a new production line for their processors that can produce a much smaller die. Right now the digic 8 processors are somewhere around a 35-40nm process. Most new phones use somewhere around a 10nm process, and most 'cheap' phones using previous years processes are still around 23nm or smaller.
> 
> Just shrinking the die means they can put twice as many transistors in the same amount of space, or they can choose to just keep the number the same and have less power consumption and greater speed. A combination of the two could lead to some very speedy digic processors.
> 
> ...


<3!
I'm a CPU/GPU guy and its refreshing to see someone else that understands the subject.


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## nchoh (Oct 2, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Canon salesman, more likely. Sharper lenses don't magically create more megapixels on a sensor that's smaller than the 5DS/5DSR. Sure, if you're using a sub-standard lens on the 5DSR and comparing it with the EOS R you're going to get poor results. But a good lens on the 5DSR will outperform any option on the EOS R right now in terms of resolution.



Actually yes... unless you are saying that DXO is wrong. A lot of standard lenses cannot deliver enough sharpness to fully utilize sensors more than say, 18 mp. First gen L glass was probably designed to resolve about 18 mp on a FF sensor. I don't know what the current line of L lens resolve to but I am sure a lot of the updates are due to the demands of higher pixel count.


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## ethanz (Oct 2, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> I can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure some site mentioned that Canon was setting up a new production line for their processors that can produce a much smaller die. Right now the digic 8 processors are somewhere around a 35-40nm process. Most new phones use somewhere around a 10nm process, and most 'cheap' phones using previous years processes are still around 23nm or smaller.



Thanks for your insight. It is hard to believe Canon is still around 35-40nm. The new iphone is 7nm! I think the 1dx has two digic processors and also an AF processor/sensor, so it wouldn't be hard to believe a pro level R camera having multiple processors to accomplish these advanced tasks.


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## nchoh (Oct 2, 2018)

ecpu said:


> This goes without saying...
> 
> Canon's processors are not known to be the most powerful or speedy chips out there, this is why (well partly) that there are so many limitations with video shooting.
> 
> Canon needs multicore CPU's or simply double up like on the 1DX II. I think we will definitely be seeing more than one CPU in any mirrorless that has real video specs and/or high speed stills capture.



Can you provide some links as to your assertion?


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## Yasko (Oct 2, 2018)

I hope a 6D equivalent will be launched somewhere in the future (may be 1 or 2-3 years), so we don‘t only get the more expensive R and like a 1D and 5D equivalents in the future...


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## nchoh (Oct 2, 2018)

ethanz said:


> Thanks for your insight. It is hard to believe Canon is still around 35-40nm. The new iphone is 7nm! I think the 1dx has two digic processors and also an AF processor/sensor, so it wouldn't be hard to believe a pro level R camera having multiple processors to accomplish these advanced tasks.



Is there a need to be small? I can understand that cell phones chips need to be small for the very reason that for cell phones smallness (and slimness) is a desired attribute. But for cameras? Doubtful that there is a real need for smaller ISP chips. 

Smaller also comes with a cost. All else being equal, a smaller chip will have a higher failure rate. So if you don't need to shrink it down, why do it?


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## baldermort (Oct 2, 2018)

Hmmm, lots of possible direction here. 
Consider the known "R" as the intro model, and take on board all the features and functions and flanges that came with that. Also consider 8-fps, but only in one-shot mode. IF you want to have AI-Focus, then it drops to a lazy 5-fps. So look at the "data-bus" on that stream, and at the very end is a single SD-Card. OK, so it is a quicker SD, but it is still "just" an SD-Card. Consider all the clever techie bits that happen before and after the "shot" and include those considerations when thinking about some bigger brother R+ thing. 
Then go look at the normal "life-cycle" for assorted Canon camera models. How frequently did they do Mark-i, Mark-II, Mark-iii, Mark-iv. (for both the 5DS-R and the 7D)
Now join up all those dots.......
Loose the SD-Card and give me a C-FAST, or even TWO nice C-FAST cards
Give me all the low-light and dynamic range of the "R" sensor, but add all the missing pixels to get me up to 50+ 
THEN, get all fully tricked out on the software front. DO the CROP in software. Give me a builtin x1.6 like I get on the 7D, which would CROP the pixels from 50+ down to 30+ and so I also loose some of the 5000+ focus points. Having "only" 2000 focus points and 30+ megapixels means there is less data going into the "Bus" and so you can do that faster. 
So 50+ megapixel at say 9/fps (Nice!)
And 30+ megapixel at say 12/fps (also Nice!)
Dual C-FAST cards and hence all the focus towards cine-camera and high-frame-rate slow-motion movies.

The 1DX Mark-ii is a beast, I bought one shortly after the announcement. Major league, in your face, industrial strength PRO camera for all the photo-journalist folks doing sports and action pictures. 
The 5DS-R is also a beast, but mainly for fashion, macro, product photos. 
The 7D Mark-ii is then the crop sensor, wildlife photography tool (desperately in need of an update)
By all means start working on a "R" variant of the 1DX replacement, but makes much more sense to combine the 5DS-R/7D replacement into a "R+" body and announce same in January, immediately after my nice employer announce what the nice bonus payment will be.


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## docsmith (Oct 2, 2018)

YuengLinger said:


> "Full blown" is in quotes. Who used "flagship," CR Guy?


It appears so, "Flagship" is in the thread title.


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## Sean C (Oct 2, 2018)

Unless Canon thinks they can surpass SLR autofocus performance, it makes more sense to leave speedy autofocus use cases to the SLRs and release R cameras targeted at other uses for now. They've got a range finder/general replacement now. A studio/landscape camera would make sense, as would an eventual rebel replacement once they've got part count/production cost worked out.

I personally really want one with a global electronic shutter to get 1/500 flash sync, but that is specific sensor design and I'm unlikely to get it from Canon anytime soon. (nor is it a knock on Canon if they don't satisfy that wish)


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## FramerMCB (Oct 2, 2018)

ethanz said:


> Thanks for your insight. It is hard to believe Canon is still around 35-40nm. The new iphone is 7nm! I think the 1dx has two digic processors and also an AF processor/sensor, so it wouldn't be hard to believe a pro level R camera having multiple processors to accomplish these advanced tasks.



One constraint would seem to be - what body size do they aim for?


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## ethanz (Oct 2, 2018)

Processor "size" in terms of nm is not necessarily how much space the entire processor takes up, I think it more refers to the size of the circuits. When the circuits are smaller and closer together, they can transfer data faster. I'm not expert so don't quote me. But it doesn't have to do with how 'small you want the camera body.' Intel desktop processors (who really don't care about physical size) are working to get smaller nm processors, I think they are down to 20 or 14.


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## BeenThere (Oct 2, 2018)

ethanz said:


> Processor "size" in terms of nm is not necessarily how much space the entire processor takes up, I think it more refers to the size of the circuits. When the circuits are smaller and closer together, they can transfer data faster. I'm not expert so don't quote me. But it doesn't have to do with how 'small you want the camera body.' Intel desktop processors (who really don't care about physical size) are working to get smaller nm processors, I think they are down to 20 or 14.


Low power consumption and faster cycle time are two of the major benefits of small processor feature size. The package size is not usually impacted in a big way.


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## bokehmon22 (Oct 2, 2018)

Sean C said:


> I personally really want one with a global electronic shutter to get 1/500 flash sync, but that is specific sensor design and I'm unlikely to get it from Canon anytime soon. (nor is it a knock on Canon if they don't satisfy that wish)



I can definitely Sony would be a first manufacture to get global shutter. That would be enough to get me to switch to Sony. IBIS, eyeAF, global shutter. If they can incoporate that 5.6 million EVF that would be a very interesting offering.


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## Architect1776 (Oct 2, 2018)

baldermort said:


> Hmmm, lots of possible direction here.
> Consider the known "R" as the intro model, and take on board all the features and functions and flanges that came with that. Also consider 8-fps, but only in one-shot mode. IF you want to have AI-Focus, then it drops to a lazy 5-fps. So look at the "data-bus" on that stream, and at the very end is a single SD-Card. OK, so it is a quicker SD, but it is still "just" an SD-Card. Consider all the clever techie bits that happen before and after the "shot" and include those considerations when thinking about some bigger brother R+ thing.
> Then go look at the normal "life-cycle" for assorted Canon camera models. How frequently did they do Mark-i, Mark-II, Mark-iii, Mark-iv. (for both the 5DS-R and the 7D)
> Now join up all those dots.......
> ...



I would prefer with a new system that is looking at speed adopt the CFEpress card as the standard for all future R cameras at the very least. And if possible for all but the Rebel series new to come DSLRs.


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## magarity (Oct 2, 2018)

Are they really ditching the model numbering system completely? Notice the 'R' is just ... 'R'. Canon may be following the Microsoft Windows versioning plan during the period of ME, XP, Vista, ah screw it, back to numbers: 7, 8, 10.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 2, 2018)

ethanz said:


> Thanks for your insight. It is hard to believe Canon is still around 35-40nm. The new iphone is 7nm! I think the 1dx has two digic processors and also an AF processor/sensor, so it wouldn't be hard to believe a pro level R camera having multiple processors to accomplish these advanced tasks.


The 1Dx uses three processors(two digic 5+ and a Digic 4), the 1DX MK II uses two Digic 6+ processors, so a flagship will likely use at least two. Also, the higher end versions used a plus version of the basic processor. 

Like everything else, processors are a compromise between battery usage, heat dissipation, and processing speed. The technology used to manufacture a processor can reduce processor power requirements as well, its a matter of how everything works together.

DPAF when extended to the full area of a FF sensor is a processor hog, that means a high end camera will have to deal with more processing, faster processor(s), and a larger battery. If you added IBIS, that is even more power consumption, and heat becomes a issue, so its difficult to get the right balance.


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## mirage (Oct 2, 2018)

interesting that a rumor would include fairly specific launch timing, but not give the slightest indication, whether the expected "flagship" camera is more speed or resolution oriented ... mirrorfree "1D-X" or "5Ds" category"?


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## razorzec (Oct 2, 2018)

My guess is that this will be a hybrid 5Ds and 5IV type. All EOS R goodies + dual card slot (CFast 2+ SD) and filterless 50MP sensor with joystick and extra buttons and a fully weathersealed body worthy of 1D/5D build quality.. 

it will record 4K video for sure, and will have a new 50mp sensor which, perhaps would bring full frame 4K in it. while burst speed will be around 5-6fps.

I don't expect Canon to put alot more features to it.


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## overniven (Oct 2, 2018)

magarity said:


> Are they really ditching the model numbering system completely? Notice the 'R' is just ... 'R'. Canon may be following the Microsoft Windows versioning plan during the period of ME, XP, Vista, ah screw it, back to numbers: 7, 8, 10.



I just figured their mirrorless R will become R1, R5, R7,R10,R100. Kind of the way the M did.


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## Don Haines (Oct 2, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> I can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure some site mentioned that Canon was setting up a new production line for their processors that can produce a much smaller die. Right now the digic 8 processors are somewhere around a 35-40nm process. Most new phones use somewhere around a 10nm process, and most 'cheap' phones using previous years processes are still around 23nm or smaller.
> 
> Just shrinking the die means they can put twice as many transistors in the same amount of space, or they can choose to just keep the number the same and have less power consumption and greater speed. A combination of the two could lead to some very speedy digic processors.
> 
> ...


I agree, and would like to add another point, plus your estimation of increased complexity is a bit low.....

Going from 35-40nm to around 10nm increases the number of transistors per area by a factor of 10.… and yes, lower power consumption and greater speed....

The other point is that the greater density allows you to put a significant memory buffer on the chip, which also helps with increased burst rates and video frame rates.

If you follow over to the sensor with the same increased density, you can put additional circuitry on sensor, such as more A/D units, logic, or whatever. The ultimate would be to have your digic X embedded on the sensor die  That would be a mean chip!


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## Don Haines (Oct 2, 2018)

overniven said:


> I just figured their mirrorless R will become R1, R5, R7,R10,R100. Kind of the way the M did.


I'm waiting for the second edition of the R2.... the R2 V2.... I have a use for it on the master's sail barge


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## [email protected] (Oct 2, 2018)

Canon *usually* tests out major tech upgrades in non-flagship models. The DPAF came out in the 70D rather than the 1DX, etc. 

If we get major new tech relative to the current R model, I'd expect it to be in a 5/7/5DS class of camera first. They may call that the current flagship until the real flagship arrives a year later. The marketing people do this sort of thing frequently. Some of them were calling the current R model a pro class camera, but the general consensus is that it lacks some of the pro qualities (low fps, years-old sensor, single card, lack of pro controls, etc.)

One thing not to lose sight of is the fact that Canon's internal development process involves brief documents that are approved as a feature set many months or even years prior to release. Which means that market reaction time is stuttered. For instance, the great IBIS wailing that happened over the past few months is unlikely to register in a product change this soon.

So, processing all of the above, I'd expect a high megapixel camera with some additional pro features. Because of tech limitations, they may not be able to do a 7D2 replacement with it due to current Canon readout limits, although they might use this as a platform to test some tech solution to that issue (optimistic). I wouldn't be surprised if we get a truly new sensor in the new camera, which would be the test bed for the true flagship later. 

Feedback that returns from this new camera and becomes useful to future product development will...
1) Largely consist of production issues feedback internally, rather than photographer/forum/field observations and
2) Be used in future camera development in a brief that would launch a new camera project in summer/fall 2019 for production a year or more later.

This means we'll get some new stuff in the next 18-24 months, but we'll get most of what we want 24-36 months from now. This is what we experienced with the M series and pretty much every other thing Canon's ever done.


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## bhf3737 (Oct 2, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> I can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure some site mentioned that Canon was setting up a new production line for their processors that can produce a much smaller die. Right now the digic 8 processors are somewhere around a 35-40nm process. Most new phones use somewhere around a 10nm process, and most 'cheap' phones using previous years processes are still around 23nm or smaller.


Canon’s latest Nanoimprint lithography (NIL) tool, used to produce semiconductor chips, is capable of producing sub-10nm feature sizes. [REF].
Also, in Jan 2018 Nikkei Review reported that Canon to double output of chip making equipment.


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## koenkooi (Oct 2, 2018)

Architect1776 said:


> I would prefer with a new system that is looking at speed adopt the CFEpress card as the standard for all future R cameras at the very least. And if possible for all but the Rebel series new to come DSLRs.



CFexpress seems to be the only sensible choice, CFast is dead and XQD won't scale up to CFexpress speeds. Even better, CFexpress is backwards compatible, Nikon has said making their XQD cams work with CFexpress should be just a matter of a firmware update.

Assuming Canon goes for CFe *and* dual slots, what will the second slot use, SD, CFe or somethinge else?


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## rsdofny (Oct 2, 2018)

So why would anyone buy the camera that is just announced? Is that just a placeholder to stop the exodus?


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## criscokkat (Oct 2, 2018)

koenkooi said:


> CFexpress seems to be the only sensible choice, CFast is dead and XQD won't scale up to CFexpress speeds. Even better, CFexpress is backwards compatible, Nikon has said making their XQD cams work with CFexpress should be just a matter of a firmware update.
> 
> Assuming Canon goes for CFe *and* dual slots, what will the second slot use, SD, CFe or somethinge else?


I'd like to see non-top of the line cameras (i.e. not 1Rx) have a standard SD card as 2nd card. The camera can then be set to copy things 'whenever there is spare cpu/bandwidth available". It's not a realtime copy so if it dies mid shoot you might lose a few pictures or minutes of video, but the tradeoff in cost would be worth it as you'd be able to capture more frames per second.

I actually think this would be a great setup to put in a battery grip as an accessory.

This could also be used as a "I'm going to go copyless- move all my existing stuff to the spare SD and free up more room for more video on the main card".


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## ethanz (Oct 2, 2018)

rsdofny said:


> So why would anyone buy the camera that is just announced? Is that just a placeholder to stop the exodus?



Because not everyone needs or wants a $3,500+ "pro" camera.


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## jolyonralph (Oct 2, 2018)

koenkooi said:


> CFexpress seems to be the only sensible choice,



What about UHS-III ? Even UHS-II isn't that far behind CFexpress performance for much more reasonable card costs.


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## fegari (Oct 2, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Canon salesman, more likely. Sharper lenses don't magically create more megapixels on a sensor that's smaller than the 5DS/5DSR. Sure, if you're using a sub-standard lens on the 5DSR and comparing it with the EOS R you're going to get poor results. But a good lens on the 5DSR will outperform any option on the EOS R right now in terms of resolution.



Both the EOS R sensor and teh 5DS/r sensor are the same size (full frame). You're maybe confusing with pixel pitch size. Nonetheless your original point is right, I do not see the EOS-R giving the same detail and spatial resolution than the 5DS/r, whatever lens you put on the EOS-R


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## jolyonralph (Oct 2, 2018)

fegari said:


> Both the EOS R sensor and teh 5DS/r sensor are the same size (full frame). You're maybe confusing with pixel pitch size. Nonetheless your original point is right, I do not see the EOS-R giving the same detail and spatial resolution than the 5DS/r, whatever lens you put on the EOS-R



Sorry, my sloppy wording. I of course meant a sensor with a lower resolution!


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## ecpu (Oct 2, 2018)

razorzec said:


> My guess is that this will be a hybrid 5Ds and 5IV type. All EOS R goodies + dual card slot (CFast 2+ SD) and filterless 50MP sensor with joystick and extra buttons and a fully weathersealed body worthy of 1D/5D build quality..
> 
> it will record 4K video for sure, and will have a new 50mp sensor which, perhaps would bring full frame 4K in it. while burst speed will be around 5-6fps.
> 
> I don't expect Canon to put alot more features to it.


There's no way Canon will pull off a 50MP sensor with a full sensor (no crop) readout in 4K.


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## sean3d (Oct 2, 2018)

Id be a buyer if this new camera had FF 4K video. _One camera to rule them all!_


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Oct 2, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> I'd like to see non-top of the line cameras (i.e. not 1Rx) have a standard SD card as 2nd card. The camera can then be set to copy things 'whenever there is spare cpu/bandwidth available". It's not a realtime copy so if it dies mid shoot you might lose a few pictures or minutes of video, but the tradeoff in cost would be worth it as you'd be able to capture more frames per second.
> 
> I actually think this would be a great setup to put in a battery grip as an accessory.
> 
> This could also be used as a "I'm going to go copyless- move all my existing stuff to the spare SD and free up more room for more video on the main card".


+1 - No matter where you are in the world you gave a pretty good chance of quickly being able to find an SD card if you need one. The other card formats not so much. I'd prefer a camera that has at least one SD card slot. I don't mind backing up to it when I'm not using the camera if that improves performance. If that can be configured to happen automatically that sounds like a great idea.


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## tmroper (Oct 2, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> If that's the case and given that both Sony & Nikon have cameras in the 40+ MP range,



Panasonic will have their 40+ MP FF mirrorless out soon, too. Seems to me, Canon has no choice but to come out with one as well.


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## fentiger (Oct 2, 2018)

should also note a lot of tv's have SD card slots, even my car has one


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## dak723 (Oct 2, 2018)

ethanz said:


> Because not everyone needs or wants a $3,500+ "pro" camera.



Or even more importantly...very few folks can AFFORD a $3,500 camera. Nor do most folks need higher specs.


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## Ozarker (Oct 2, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> I hope they don't call it the 'R Pro". How cheesy would that be?


It don't matter none.


----------



## mirage (Oct 2, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> What about UHS-III ? Even UHS-II isn't that far behind CFexpress performance for much more reasonable card costs.



exactly. UHS-II should be absolute minimum standard today, UHS-III preferred. And instead of CFExpress i'd like to see SD Express. It's also PCI, only 1-lane, but plenty fast for anything. And in the physical space for 1 CF (Express) slot companies could fit dual SD (Express) slots ... or 8x MicroSD format, which is my preferred card format.


----------



## bitm2007 (Oct 2, 2018)

Proscribo said:


> What makes you think that? It could (and I guess it would make more sense at this point) to be 1Ds type camera, as I doubt they could match 1DxII's speed right now. Besides it would make more sense for a high-res body to be mirrorless for example thanks to more accurate AF, no?



The word flagship has been associated with the EOS 1D series since it was launched and the EOS 1 series of film cameras before that.


----------



## melgross (Oct 2, 2018)

ecpu said:


> This goes without saying...
> 
> Canon's processors are not known to be the most powerful or speedy chips out there, this is why (well partly) that there are so many limitations with video shooting.
> 
> Canon needs multicore CPU's or simply double up like on the 1DX II. I think we will definitely be seeing more than one CPU in any mirrorless that has real video specs and/or high speed stills capture.



Maybe they can find some Apple A12s that fell off the back of a truck.


----------



## zim (Oct 2, 2018)

Looks like two announcements to look forward too, just before CP+ a 5DS(R) series level R with release date and at CP+ announcing the development of a 1D series level R with no release date. The latter being more PR than anything as it's hardly a surprise that camera will/is being developed.
I'd expect a high MP R to be all about the sensor the rest of the spec to be very similar to the current R.
I'm not seeing any love for 7D users for now


----------



## kaptainkatsu (Oct 2, 2018)

zonoskar said:


> Canon have said AF takes 0.05s on the Digic 8 processor of the current EOS-R. The Digic 8 in the EOS-R must also perform other tasks, so presumably, that's why the burst speed is so low. So 2 Digic 8 processors should be able to perform 20 fps and also the other tasks in parallel. It's not unheard of for Canon to put 2 Digic processors in a camera, so that could be a real possibility for the EOS-R.



5d4 has a Digic 6 and a Digic 6+ while the 1dx2 has a DIGIC 6 and 2x Digic 6+


----------



## ethanz (Oct 2, 2018)

melgross said:


> Maybe they can find some Apple A12s that fell off the back of a truck.



That wouldn't be such a bad partnership. The A chips are very powerful and efficient. Cue HF and some more theories.


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 2, 2018)

rsdofny said:


> So why would anyone buy the camera that is just announced? Is that just a placeholder to stop the exodus?


What "exodus" is that?


----------



## ecpu (Oct 2, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> What "exodus" is that?


I'm not sure there's an "exodus" under way but people are definitely switching. Can't wait forever to get the features you want from canon. I have an A7III and 24-70GM on order. I still would prefer to use a canon camera for the friendly user interface, colors and ergonomics but they're not offering the features that I'm looking for. Many people are in the same boat. I may come back to Canon if they ever catch up though.


----------



## CanonGrunt (Oct 2, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> I hope they don't call it the 'R Pro". How cheesy would that be?



It would sound like Apple...


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 2, 2018)

ecpu said:


> I'm not sure there's an "exodus" under way but people are definitely switching. Can't wait forever to get the features you want from canon. I have an A7III and 24-70GM on order. I still would prefer to use a canon camera for the friendly user interface, colors and ergonomics but they're not offering the features that I'm looking for. Many people are in the same boat. I may come back to Canon if they ever catch up though.


People switch all the time, both ways. Of course you should pick whichever brand meets your needs. This forum, or any forum, is not representative of what may or may not be happening yet people act as though there are vast numbers of folks switching around. There are people here that have been threatening to switch for years and years.  However, somebody throwing around the word "exodus" hasn't got a clue. Perception is not necessarily reality.


----------



## Dphotos (Oct 2, 2018)

The problem is Canon came late to the game and I cannot wait any longer. I need a high end pro mirrorless camera for my work flow. I do not want a camera with one card slot. I have already been burned twice with two cards the computer said it could not read the cards. One lab wanted $1500 to get the images back. I always shoot with two cards now. I also need a mirrorless camera that can shoot mutiple photos while in the silent mode. Second Sony and Fuji has taken a large market share away from Canon and that goes with Nikon too. I own the Fuji XT-2 system along with a number of Canon 5D Mark lll's and lenses. I have been happy with the Fuji camera but I also need a full frame mirrorless camera and I believe the Sony a9 to be the type of camera I need right now. It is a camera that can shoot better in lower light setting and higher ISO's than the Fuji cameras. I have learned that Canon sales people and technicians know knowing about new product development. Their job is either to fix or sell the products that are in the market place. I asked a few Canon reps two years ago at the NAB show in Las Vegas what is Canon going to do with the professional mirrorless camera market and they had no clue.


----------



## ecpu (Oct 2, 2018)

Canon should have released more info about their FF mirrorless line in my opinion. Even some basic development announcements to go along with the EOS R. Knowing better products with more modern features were on their way might have kept some people (me lol) from buying Sony. I have learned two things in my years shooting Canon: 1.) They are not interested in being competitive in terms of specs and 2.) They do not care if people switch to competing brands.


----------



## brad-man (Oct 2, 2018)

bitm2007 said:


> The word flagship has been associated with the EOS 1D series since it was launched and the EOS 1 series of film cameras before that.


"Flagship" doesn't quite have the same cachet when the fleet consists of two ships...


----------



## ethanz (Oct 2, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> What "exodus" is that?



I think this kind:


----------



## 20Dave (Oct 2, 2018)

Dphotos said:


> ... I need a high end pro mirrorless camera for my work flow.



I'm curious, what features do you need? I'm not trolling, just curious, as I am only a hobbyist. I mostly shoot birds and other wildlife, so my requirements lean towards fast focus and long focal lengths. I've never thought "gee, I wish this mirror wasn't in the camera", but maybe I don't understand what I'm missing. Is it mostly the advanced features available through the viewfinder, or something else?


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 2, 2018)

20Dave said:


> I'm curious, what features do you need? I'm not trolling, just curious, as I am only a hobbyist. I mostly shoot birds and other wildlife, so my requirements lean towards fast focus and long focal lengths. I've never thought "gee, I wish this mirror wasn't in the camera", but maybe I don't understand what I'm missing. Is it mostly the advanced features available through the viewfinder, or something else?


Mirrorless images edit faster in Photoshop. That's what I hear from Sony fans anyway.


----------



## tron (Oct 2, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> Canon technician at Photokina told me that the EOS R with either the RF 50mm f1.2L or the RF 28-70mm f2L gave results similar to the 5DS. If that's the case and given that both Sony & Nikon have cameras in the 40+ MP range, an EOS R Pro camera to be the spiritual successor to the 5DS / 5DSr would make a lot of sense. Personally I don't think this should be the prototype 120MP sensor, staying around 50MP mark is way more than enough and keeps shutter speeds manageable.


Too generic. I do not say this is not good but can it be quantified? What good does it do to me when I shoot birds and I am always Focal Length limited? I still need the 5DsR.


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 2, 2018)

Dphotos said:


> Second Sony and Fuji has taken a large market share away from Canon and that goes with Nikon too.



 In the twilight zone.

You have 5 posts since 2014 and they are all essentially the same. Fuji, Panasonic, and Sony. 

I call Troll.



Dphotos said:


> If the camera has a single card slot I will not buy it. I have been burned before due to my computer could not read a card on a job I did. I now always shoot dual cards. Looks like I will be leaving Canon to Sony. I waited too long for this Camera. I bought the Fuji XT2 system to hold me over. I am going to sell all my Canon lenses. The work I do now requires me to shoot silent and for a camera to shoot well in low light. My Canon 5D Mark lll’s are paper weights due to their large shutter counts. Looks like the Sony A9 is the Mirrorless king and best manufacturer. Canon will blow it big time if this new camera is less than the quality of the Sony. Their future hinges on their new Mirrorless products. They lost a ton of market share to Sony because of their executives did not listen to what the pros needed. Their egos blew it for them. To me they have the mentality of what Kodak did. They did not foresee the future in camera bodies.


----------



## tron (Oct 2, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Mirrorless images edit faster in Photoshop. That's what I hear from Sony fans anyway.


----------



## HarryFilm (Oct 2, 2018)

ethanz said:


> That wouldn't be such a bad partnership. The A chips are very powerful and efficient. Cue HF and some more theories.



===

AND the current theory is that Apple is STILL in the Hunt to buy ALL of Canon ...OR... get an exclusive deal on their chipmaking expertise. (Canon is Number 2 or Number 3 in the world for overall chip making toolsets). Again, I suspect Apple is looking to take CPU/GPU Chip and Super High Resolution 8K Display production ENTIRELY IN-HOUSE which means they ARE LIKELY to buy EITHER Canon or Texas Instruments.

In MY opinion, I suggest Canon simply goes to Qualcomm and buy those Multi-core SnapDragon 845 ARM chips which can EASILY handle 4K and 8K imaging at a full 60 fps WITH real-time colour correction and effects. That would boost the IQ of EVERY Canon camera in a package barely the size of a postage stamp!
And at $80 to $120 US wholesale for the SnapDragon 845, Canon can EASILY get a discount to keep the chips in the $70 to $85 range to make it worth their while!

---

On a secondary note, my Euro sources STILL HAD NO IDEA the R-series was coming. They were adamant it was a Vixia/XF-405 replacement OR an XC-15 replacement. It WAS a new XF-series that was introduced (I should ALSO note that the new XF-series video camera is STILL A GREAT CAMERA). I am inclined to believe that the XC-15 (XC-20?) with an interchangeable lens and 60 fps 4k/120 fps1080 on a one inch sensor is coming and THAT is what is PROBABLY going to be announced in January since we saw NO such announcement in September.

I am still rather adamant about the in-the-wild testing of a VERY LARGE SENSOR Medium Format 50 megapixel high frame rate combined stills/video camera from Canon coming very-soon-now! Too many sources have been saying the same thing for over two years now!

---

On a final note, wait until you see the coming surprise camera from an unspecified manufacturer................WHAT A DOOOZIE !!!!!


----------



## wickedac (Oct 2, 2018)

Am I the only one who has no interested in increased resolution beyond what's already offered in the 5DIV? I feel like they hit the apex with that sensor. The files are gigantic already and when I come back from a wedding with 2000-3000 files on average I really don't care to have even bigger files to manage.


----------



## HarryFilm (Oct 2, 2018)

Dphotos said:


> The problem is Canon came late to the game and I cannot wait any longer. I need a high end pro mirrorless camera for my work flow. I do not want a camera with one card slot. I have already been burned twice with two cards the computer said it could not read the cards. One lab wanted $1500 to get the images back. I always shoot with two cards now. I also need a mirrorless camera that can shoot mutiple photos while in the silent mode. Second Sony and Fuji has taken a large market share away from Canon and that goes with Nikon too. I own the Fuji XT-2 system along with a number of Canon 5D Mark lll's and lenses. I have been happy with the Fuji camera but I also need a full frame mirrorless camera and I believe the Sony a9 to be the type of camera I need right now. It is a camera that can shoot better in lower light setting and higher ISO's than the Fuji cameras. I have learned that Canon sales people and technicians know knowing about new product development. Their job is either to fix or sell the products that are in the market place. I asked a few Canon reps two years ago at the NAB show in Las Vegas what is Canon going to do with the professional mirrorless camera market and they had no clue.



---

If I were you, I would HIGHLY SUGGEST taking a look at the Fuji XT3. It's specs and performance are basically like having a 5D-Mk4 in a size of something that is about a Sony A7s2 (i.e. a LOT SMALLER and LIGHTER than the 5Dmk4!) After seeing a local demo of it in Vancouver, Canada, It is a VERY NICE camera for the size and money! It's video capabilities are TRULY impressive. You DO NOT actually NEED a full frame camera...what you NEED is a GREAT LENS and the very best F/1.2 or F/1.4 35mm or 50mm lens you can afford is what you should be spending your money on INITIALLY. Then you spend your money on a FAST 85mm and 135 lens. For an action/wildlife/sports zoom lens, get an adapter and put on the Sigma 150 to 600 mm Sports Zoom which is the BEST DEAL for the zoom lens money right now!!!


----------



## RickWagoner (Oct 2, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> I can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure some site mentioned that Canon was setting up a new production line for their processors that can produce a much smaller die. Right now the digic 8 processors are somewhere around a 35-40nm process. Most new phones use somewhere around a 10nm process, and most 'cheap' phones using previous years processes are still around 23nm or smaller.
> 
> Just shrinking the die means they can put twice as many transistors in the same amount of space, or they can choose to just keep the number the same and have less power consumption and greater speed. A combination of the two could lead to some very speedy digic processors.
> 
> ...




the problem for Canon moving to smaller dies are cost to make them. I am not sure if Canon makes their own SOC's but it is unfair to compare a SOC made in the millions to something Canon uses in such a small production number. It would be cheaper to have Samsung do the manufacture (if they already don't) then Canon themselves invest in the equipment. Still i agree with you on if they could use smaller dies it would be an incredible step up in mirrorless bodies, even if it's just for power savings.


----------



## RickWagoner (Oct 2, 2018)

wickedac said:


> Am I the only one who has no interested in increased resolution beyond what's already offered in the 5DIV? I feel like they hit the apex with that sensor. The files are gigantic already and when I come back from a wedding with 2000-3000 files on average I really don't care to have even bigger files to manage.



Hence why the flagship bodies from Nikon and Canon use low mp sensors compared to the pro line stuff.


----------



## Quarkcharmed (Oct 2, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I'm waiting for the second edition of the R2.... the R2 V2.... I have a use for it on the master's sail barge



Yeah. I'm also looking forward to seeing the flagship R2-D2 on sale.


----------



## RGF (Oct 2, 2018)

bitm2007 said:


> Flagship so that will be a mirrorless 1D style camera, so unlikely to be high mega pixel.



Canon may be merge high MP with high FPS. 30--36 MP, 12 FPS. possible 6K video


----------



## Talys (Oct 3, 2018)

CanonGrunt said:


> It would sound like Apple...


But then Canon would have to come out with a new flagship every year and keep bumping up the price 

Next year it would be the R X, R XS, R X Max and R XR! 

Of course they could be like Microsoft, and then we'd have the R Pro, R Home, R 365, and R Enterprise.


----------



## sanj (Oct 3, 2018)

Dphotos said:


> The problem is Canon came late to the game and I cannot wait any longer. I need a high end pro mirrorless camera for my work flow. I do not want a camera with one card slot. I have already been burned twice with two cards the computer said it could not read the cards. One lab wanted $1500 to get the images back. I always shoot with two cards now. I also need a mirrorless camera that can shoot mutiple photos while in the silent mode. Second Sony and Fuji has taken a large market share away from Canon and that goes with Nikon too. I own the Fuji XT-2 system along with a number of Canon 5D Mark lll's and lenses. I have been happy with the Fuji camera but I also need a full frame mirrorless camera and I believe the Sony a9 to be the type of camera I need right now. It is a camera that can shoot better in lower light setting and higher ISO's than the Fuji cameras. I have learned that Canon sales people and technicians know knowing about new product development. Their job is either to fix or sell the products that are in the market place. I asked a few Canon reps two years ago at the NAB show in Las Vegas what is Canon going to do with the professional mirrorless camera market and they had no clue.



I have heard several such stories. Sad.


----------



## dak723 (Oct 3, 2018)

wickedac said:


> Am I the only one who has no interested in increased resolution beyond what's already offered in the 5DIV? I feel like they hit the apex with that sensor. The files are gigantic already and when I come back from a wedding with 2000-3000 files on average I really don't care to have even bigger files to manage.



I also have no need or want for anything over 30 MP. I would prefer even less - 24 MP seems more than enough. Anything above 30 MP would be a real negative for me and I won't go there until I have to.


----------



## SaP34US (Oct 3, 2018)

I think it might be between the 5D and 5DSR.


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## bhf3737 (Oct 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Mirrorless images edit faster in Photoshop. That's what I hear from Sony fans anyway.


But but then you cannot stand in front of the mirror and call 4K four times, to have all your dreams come true!!


----------



## Ozarker (Oct 3, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> But but then you cannot stand in front of the mirror and call 4K four times, to have all your dreams come true!!


No need if one owns a Sony. It knows what you need before you ask for it. I was going to go with Sony, but then I didn't have room in my bag for the cross.


----------



## transpo1 (Oct 3, 2018)

RickWagoner said:


> the problem for Canon moving to smaller dies are cost to make them. I am not sure if Canon makes their own SOC's but it is unfair to compare a SOC made in the millions to something Canon uses in such a small production number. It would be cheaper to have Samsung do the manufacture (if they already don't) then Canon themselves invest in the equipment. Still i agree with you on if they could use smaller dies it would be an incredible step up in mirrorless bodies, even if it's just for power savings.



Leveraging of Samsung by Canon (Fuji already has a partnership with them) would be a smart move to offset the dominance of Sony in the sensor arena.


----------



## Jethro (Oct 3, 2018)

The term seems to be 'full blown' rather than 'flagship'. I think that points towards a genuine 5DIV equivalent, rather than a super-pro speed machine. I agree that this could be the occasion for new tech to be tried out for a future 'flagship' pro model. The timing seems to tie up with earlier (pre-EOS R release) rumours about Q1 2019 releases, and that there would be two FFM bodies.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 3, 2018)

mirage said:


> interesting that a rumor would include fairly specific launch timing, but not give the slightest indication, whether the expected "flagship" camera is more speed or resolution oriented ... mirrorfree "1D-X" or "5Ds" category"?


It is standard practice for Canon to keep the details very secret,they are paranoid about leaks. Sales reps may be told that a pro level is coming before CP+, but thats all they are told for now. Even VP's are not given specifics unless they need to know them. The specs themselves leak when cameras are given out for photographers to try, or more commonly when advertising material is being printed, which is why we only get firm info one to two weeks ahead of a announcement.


----------



## Freddell (Oct 3, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> Canon’s latest Nanoimprint lithography (NIL) tool, used to produce semiconductor chips, is capable of producing sub-10nm feature sizes. [REF].
> Also, in Jan 2018 Nikkei Review reported that Canon to double output of chip making equipment.



I am almost certain of two things.
1. Canon is not manufacturing the DIGIC processor themselves, if they uses TI in the past I don't have a reason to suspect that they would have changed strategy. If DIGIC 5 was 45 nm, 5+ 45nm, 6 32 nm, 7 22nm then DIGIC 8 would be 14nm. Why would anyone suggest DIGIC 8 would be 30-40nm?

2. Canon is a supplier of tools/equipment to manufacture semiconductors, it does not mean Canon themselves would manufacture semiconductors on their own, let alone something like DIGIC.

Photo-sensors would not use the same manufacturing process used by a DIGIC processor.
Although Texas Instruments have nothing better than a 45nm facility, GF, Samsung, TSMC, Intel have.


----------



## tmc784 (Oct 3, 2018)

I have few L lenses, NO WAY to buy a mirrorless camera with an adapter for extra dollars and look ugly. I am waiting for Canon 5D V or something better than Nikon D850.


----------



## Jethro (Oct 3, 2018)

tmc784 said:


> I have few L lenses, NO WAY to buy a mirrorless camera with an adapter for extra dollars and look ugly. I am waiting for Canon 5D V or something better than Nikon D850.


Or you could buy some new lenses built especially to go with the new FFM camera ...


----------



## Memirsbrunnr (Oct 3, 2018)

ethanz said:


> I think this kind:


That looks like a very apocalyptic version of an elderly the Gladiator('s), "Are you not amused?"


----------



## gzroxas (Oct 3, 2018)

I know this is definitely good, but I have to be honest I only wanted an affordable body to move to full frame with A7III like specs... even if this body has everything I want (full 4K and slow mo, better ISO performance, good DR etc) it will surely be waaaay to expensive for my budget


----------



## padam (Oct 3, 2018)

The problem is that they haven't quite figured out the AF behaviour on their EOS R
Of course it will receive firmware updates, but a higher-end model will be even more complex, it would be weird to have the controls and higher fps but not a significantly better AF.
That's why I hadn't thought of the 26MP camera as the higher-end model rather than a lower-end, but we'll see. (this is still rated as CR1)


----------



## rjbray01 (Oct 3, 2018)

CanonFanBoy said:


> It don't matter none.


yeap the car manufacturers have proved that !

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/the-worlds-worst-car-names/


----------



## rjbray01 (Oct 3, 2018)

ecpu said:


> I'm not sure there's an "exodus" under way but people are definitely switching. Can't wait forever to get the features you want from canon. I have an A7III and 24-70GM on order. I still would prefer to use a canon camera for the friendly user interface, colors and ergonomics but they're not offering the features that I'm looking for. Many people are in the same boat. I may come back to Canon if they ever catch up though.



Exodus ?

Well, I can only speak anecdotally from my own personal experience as I don't have statistics.

I was seriously thinking about switching to Sony, but the YouTube reviews I've seen of the EOS R are enough to persuade me to stick with Canon.

From what I've seen the Viewfinder and AF are excellent. 

Sure they don't have IBIS nor non-cropped 4k and that was a disappointment, but right now their lens IS is excellent and I for one mostly shoot stills.

Once they release a model which equals or surpasses the 5D4 in Image Quality then I'm going to buy one.

I just hope its not a 1DX-priced model as I can't afford that ... I just want a mirrorless 5D4 equivalent.


----------



## PerKr (Oct 3, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> I was seriously thinking about switching to Sony, but the YouTube reviews I've seen of the EOS R are enough to persuade me to stick with Canon.



I am a Sony (A-mount) user and despite Sony E being the logical choice when A-mount is killed, I am seriously considering the Canon and Nikon offerings. Had I been a Nikon or Canon user (I used to be but I had reasons to go with A-mount) the choice would have been easy.


----------



## jolyonralph (Oct 3, 2018)

rjbray01 said:


> Once they release a model which equals or surpasses the 5D4 in Image Quality then I'm going to buy one.
> 
> I just hope its not a 1DX-priced model as I can't afford that ... I just want a mirrorless 5D4 equivalent.



It's the same sensor as the 5D4, image quality should be the same!


----------



## mb66energy (Oct 3, 2018)

Just my idea: To make DPAF enabled cameras faster you have to increase the speed of sensor read out. Just in case of the "simple" M50 you have to read out millions of pixels ten or twenty times a second to provide data for the AF math. Maybe you need a new sensor which is logically divided in 4 quadrants each processed by one DIGIC CPU which communicate together especially if AF near the "division lines" is needed and combine their data into one image. Processing speed might be enhanced by a factor of 2 or 3 if you take the communication overhead between the CPUs into account.

Canon gave us "digital retina", they made a fundamental decision, and while being slower than competitors sensors readout they gave us a lot of creative freedom by turning ~60 ... 80% of the image area into an AF sensor! For my style of photography (landscape, macro, some mild action) it is a big thing because I can do macro of leaves in mild wind (servo AF enabled) reliably which was never before possible with my cameras without restrictions from AF points clustered in the center of the image!


----------



## Daner (Oct 3, 2018)

criscokkat said:


> I can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure some site mentioned that Canon was setting up a new production line for their processors that can produce a much smaller die. Right now the digic 8 processors are somewhere around a 35-40nm process. Most new phones use somewhere around a 10nm process, and most 'cheap' phones using previous years processes are still around 23nm or smaller.
> 
> Just shrinking the die means they can put twice as many transistors in the same amount of space, or they can choose to just keep the number the same and have less power consumption and greater speed. A combination of the two could lead to some very speedy digic processors.
> 
> ...



... and the potential for better battery life.


----------



## Hector1970 (Oct 3, 2018)

Flagship for me would mean 1DR
Full blown would mean 5DR (5DV or 5DSR II).
Not sure if they are ready to surpass the 1DX II yet.
A 5DSR II is most likely.. Rehash of the existing 50MP sensor perhaps.
Hopefully not.
I’d prefer if it was something slightly better than the 5D IV especially frame rate. 10FPS would be nice


----------



## tron (Oct 3, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Flagship for me would mean 1DR
> Full blown would mean 5DR (5DV or 5DSR II).
> Not sure if they are ready to surpass the 1DX II yet.
> A 5DSR II is most likely.. Rehash of the existing 50MP sensor perhaps.
> ...


I would be positive to both: a 5DsRII (DSLR - EF mount) and a mirrorless 5DsRII like assuming it would be a superset of 5DsR in all points. A 5DIV sensor like the one in EOS R - EOS R sensor has less tolerance to banding than 5DIV strangely like the Nikon mirrorless cameras - does not interest me. I believe Canon needs time to really improve upon the already very good 5DIV sensor.


----------



## snoke (Oct 3, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Flagship for me would mean 1DR
> Not sure if they are ready to surpass the 1DX II yet.



If not Canon, someone else and Canon lose.


----------



## tapanit (Oct 3, 2018)

ethanz said:


> Thanks for your insight. It is hard to believe Canon is still around 35-40nm. The new iphone is 7nm! I think the 1dx has two digic processors and also an AF processor/sensor, so it wouldn't be hard to believe a pro level R camera having multiple processors to accomplish these advanced tasks.



Given that Canon was still using 500nm lithography for things like 5DmkIII, 40nm today would if anything surprisingly small. They did have 180nm fab by 2012, but used it initially only for smaller (Powershot) sensors. I don't know what they're actually doing now, maybe it is indeed in 35-40nm range.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Oct 3, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> Canon salesman, more likely. Sharper lenses don't magically create more megapixels on a sensor that's smaller than the 5DS/5DSR. Sure, if you're using a sub-standard lens on the 5DSR and comparing it with the EOS R you're going to get poor results. But a good lens on the 5DSR will outperform any option on the EOS R right now in terms of resolution.



I could get super technical but I wont. It was a "technician", point one. The weak spot in using the 5DS has been lenses, not the camera, point two. If the lenses don't have the resolving power or have inherent aberations they are not going to give you the full benefits of a 50MP sensor. At what point did I say sharper lenses create more megapixels? The sensors are the same size, the pixel pitch is different!

The benefits of the shorter back focus is the ability to create concentric lens designs that improve edge to edge sharpness and minimise shading, aberations and distortion.


----------



## TAF (Oct 3, 2018)

I wonder if it will be the same body size?

I have yet to hold the R (I am looking forward to it), but if it proves too small for my average size hands, then there would be a decently large market segment looking for something in a more traditional size.

And larger would mean easier heat sinking, and hence easier to enhance video capabilities.

The 1Dx is more than specs, it is ergonomics. Which is why I don't own one - it is too big, and the M5 too small. I find the 5D3 'just right'. I hope the R proves to be as well, since it looks like it would be a very nice upgrade to my 5D3.

This rumor suggests Canon is going to fill out an entire line of mirrorless R's, fairly quickly. They've got to cover all the bases...


----------



## Aregal (Oct 3, 2018)

I feel the flagship will literally be a 1DxII in mirrorless form much like the R is the 5DIV in mirrorless form. Canon always considered the 1D line as their flagship line. Also, Canon uses their sensor tech until the last drop, maximizing profit while liquidating fabrication stock.

That being said, just look to the 1DxII specs for this pro mirrorless body. Add, Canon log and 10-bit 422 hdmi and rec.2020. “True” successor to the legendary 1Dc.

The 4K 1.3x crop and 120fps 1080p will sway people over 1DxII owners like PeterMcKinnon, CaseyNeistst, and DanMace.

In terms of price, my guess is around $4500

It’s all making sense now....

https://petapixel.com/2017/10/19/canon-patents-giant-dslr-flip-screen/


----------



## BeenThere (Oct 3, 2018)

Aregal said:


> I feel the flagship will literally be a 1DxII in mirrorless form much like the R is the 5DIV in mirrorless form. Canon always considered the 1D line as their flagship line. Also, Canon uses their sensor tech until the last drop, maximizing profit while liquidating fabrication stock.
> 
> That being said, just look to the 1DxII specs for this pro mirrorless body. Add, Canon log and 10-bit 422 hdmi and rec.2020. “True” successor to the legendary 1Dc.
> 
> ...


The R is not a 5D4 mirrorless. Just look at the servo focus priority frame rate. Similarly, the R Pro will not be a mirrorless 1Dx2. Canon has some more work to do to get there. It will happen, but not in 2019.


----------



## bestimage (Oct 3, 2018)

Noone is talking about sensor quality.

Also, can anyone explain why DSLRs/MILC don't have 16 bit color as opposed to medium format. May be Canon should introduce 16 bit color in their pro bodies


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Oct 3, 2018)

mb66energy said:


> Just my idea: To make DPAF enabled cameras faster you have to increase the speed of sensor read out. Just in case of the "simple" M50 you have to read out millions of pixels ten or twenty times a second to provide data for the AF math. Maybe you need a new sensor which is logically divided in 4 quadrants each processed by one DIGIC CPU which communicate together especially if AF near the "division lines" is needed and combine their data into one image. Processing speed might be enhanced by a factor of 2 or 3 if you take the communication overhead between the CPUs into account.
> 
> Canon gave us "digital retina", they made a fundamental decision, and while being slower than competitors sensors readout they gave us a lot of creative freedom by turning ~60 ... 80% of the image area into an AF sensor! For my style of photography (landscape, macro, some mild action) it is a big thing because I can do macro of leaves in mild wind (servo AF enabled) reliably which was never before possible with my cameras without restrictions from AF points clustered in the center of the image!



I believe that Canon has already described the DPAF uses only at the selected area to do DPAF in their white paper. It does not use all the pixels to do DPAF, the speed of calculation is the bottleneck.

"
Figure 44 illustrates the manner in which the sets of dual pixel outputs from the CMOS image sensor are
sent to the DIGIC 8 processing microcircuit that was developed by Canon. Within this processor, these
streams are separately fed to the primary RGB video processing system (where the two photodiode
signals are summed) and to a data processing system that analyzes the phase difference between the
two and makes all of the decision-making and data processing associated with the Auto Focus system.
While all of the millions of photosites are delivering the “dual pixel” data, *the operational aspects of
Auto Focus dictate that only a select number of these are activated at any given time.* This is because
the camera operator (or for the camera, when AF methods like Face Detect + Tracking are active) will
make the decision on which particular subject within the overall picture frame is chosen for sharpest
focus. Consequently, a cursor type system must be implemented to facilitate this choice. Experiences
gained in the early generations of Dual Pixel CMOS AF systems produced the following:
1. Broad request to provide spatial movement of the sampling area — so that different subjects
within a given scene can be selected for sharpest focus
2. Ranging performance improvement is needed in low scene illumination situations
3. Improvement in accuracy of the system as ISO setting increased
4. Auto focus should ideally be a realtime action (or as close as possible to realtime) so speed
of calculations should be increased
5. Improvement in the calculating algorithm to elevate reliability
A more dense sampling lattice of photosites for the cursor was developed to increase sensing sensitivity
and accuracy over a wider range of scene illumination and camera ISO settings. The cursor size can be
adjusted to accommodate the specific AF needs of a given scene and situation.
37


----------



## razorzec (Oct 3, 2018)

ecpu said:


> There's no way Canon will pull off a 50MP sensor with a full sensor (no crop) readout in 4K.



I never said Full sensor readout in 4K. It could be line skipped 4K like what they are doing in 1080p. that's not that difficult for canon to do

however i will also not conclude right away that Canon cannot bring full sensor readout 4K in their next camera. There could be a prototype in their office at work. just that no one knows at this point.


----------



## Aregal (Oct 3, 2018)

BeenThere said:


> The R is not a 5D4 mirrorless. Just look at the servo focus priority frame rate. Similarly, the R Pro will not be a mirrorless 1Dx2. Canon has some more work to do to get there. It will happen, but not in 2019.



That’s because the R doesn’t have the AF module that the 5DIV has that resides under the mirror. I was talking in terms of sensor and on-sensor AF for video.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Oct 3, 2018)

HarryFilm said:


> ===
> 
> AND the current theory is that Apple is STILL in the Hunt to buy ALL of Canon ...OR... get an exclusive deal on their chipmaking expertise. (Canon is Number 2 or Number 3 in the world for overall chip making toolsets). Again, I suspect Apple is looking to take CPU/GPU Chip and Super High Resolution 8K Display production ENTIRELY IN-HOUSE which means they ARE LIKELY to buy EITHER Canon or Texas Instruments.
> 
> ...



I don't know what bottle you drink from but your assessment of Apple & Canon is pure fantasy. Where does the synergy come from? Canon as well as making photographic equipment make office & domestic printers, photographic printers, machines for making CMOS sensors and security products, principally through various acquisitions in both hardware & software. They also industrially now sell CMOS sensors. 

Apple design cell phones, computers, tablets, electronic watches, Apple TV and develop software. They provide services such as Apple Pay, App. Store & Apple Music so how is Canon going to benefit Apple or visa-versa. 

According to Forbes Canon has a market cap. of $ 46.5bn and whilst Apple is supposedly the first $ 1 trillion company and has a large cash mountain you've really got to have a compelling argument to pay a premium on Canon market cap. It would mean Canon owns patents that have attached well developed, ground-breaking technology that Apple will desperately need. If that was the case Canon market cap would be much higher.


----------



## stevelee (Oct 3, 2018)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> IBIS, Dual Card Slots, Joystick, high resolution sensor, faster readout and processing would be nice.


And stainless steel with marble counter tops.


----------



## highdesertmesa (Oct 3, 2018)

RGF said:


> Canon may be merge high MP with high FPS. 30--36 MP, 12 FPS. possible 6K video



I can't believe only one person in this entire thread gets this. Since Fujifilm will be releasing a GFX 100S with IBIS, 100mp, and full-frame 4K/10-bit/30fps, then certainly Canon and Nikon can produce a camera with high FPS at the 50-60mp range on a full frame sensor.


----------



## ethanz (Oct 3, 2018)

stevelee said:


> And stainless steel with marble counter tops.



I prefer granite. Get out of here you marble fan boy.


----------



## stevelee (Oct 3, 2018)

ethanz said:


> I prefer granite. Get out of here you marble fan boy.


Don't take marble counter tops for granite!


----------



## scyrene (Oct 3, 2018)

ecpu said:


> I'm not sure there's an "exodus" under way but people are definitely switching.



People must be switching in both directions, or else their marketshare would be sliding...

If I was being generous to the OP, perhaps they meant a potential exodus that could have happened if no FF MILC had been announced (given so many rivals have done/are about to).


----------



## scyrene (Oct 3, 2018)

Dphotos said:


> Sony and Fuji has taken a large market share away from Canon



That is categorically untrue.


----------



## Lurker (Oct 3, 2018)

ethanz said:


> I prefer granite. Get out of here you marble fan boy.


I don't belong here, I'm such an amateur.  I can only afford laminate.


----------



## Talys (Oct 3, 2018)

stevelee said:


> Don't take marble counter tops for granite!


Granite has more dynamic range AND better colours.


----------



## fentiger (Oct 3, 2018)

Talys said:


> Granite has more dynamic range AND better colours.


Nah, has to be polished Walnut, like high grade shotgun stocks.


----------



## kaptainkatsu (Oct 3, 2018)

I highly doubt that the next R is going to be a 1DX2 successor. Customer perception is huge. If Canon releases a "Pro R" with 20-24mp with higher read out (well duh since there is less MP) the forum fanboys will say its a downgrade. My bet is a higher MP version.

1DX-R would probably be released in 2020 or later along side the 1DX3


----------



## jolyonralph (Oct 3, 2018)

kaptainkatsu said:


> I highly doubt that the next R is going to be a 1DX2 successor. Customer perception is huge. If Canon releases a "Pro R" with 20-24mp with higher read out (well duh since there is less MP) the forum fanboys will say its a downgrade. My bet is a higher MP version.
> 
> 1DX-R would probably be released in 2020 or later along side the 1DX3



Well, Sony did just fine with their A9 positioning having a lower pixel density than the A7RII/III, so I think Canon could do the same.

But, if they're going to do an A9 class body they really do need to make sure it's A9 class performance.


----------



## Architect1776 (Oct 3, 2018)

koenkooi said:


> CFexpress seems to be the only sensible choice, CFast is dead and XQD won't scale up to CFexpress speeds. Even better, CFexpress is backwards compatible, Nikon has said making their XQD cams work with CFexpress should be just a matter of a firmware update.
> 
> Assuming Canon goes for CFe *and* dual slots, what will the second slot use, SD, CFe or somethinge else?



I hope CFe. That should be the standard for all R cameras and any new EF camera except for Rebel and M class cameras. Quantity production would bring the price way down.


----------



## jolyonralph (Oct 3, 2018)

I'd prefer at least one SD slot so that we can use cards that don't cost an absolute fortune


----------



## jolyonralph (Oct 3, 2018)

koenkooi said:


> Nikon has said making their XQD cams work with CFexpress should be just a matter of a firmware update.



But does that mean simply that the CFexpress cards will fit and work in XQD slots at XQD speeds? I'm not sure how a firmware update will update the entire system to have a significantly faster data throughput. Guess it depends on what hardware they have put in place in preparation for that.


----------



## HarryFilm (Oct 3, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> I don't know what bottle you drink from but your assessment of Apple & Canon is pure fantasy. Where does the synergy come from? Canon as well as making photographic equipment make office & domestic printers, photographic printers, machines for making CMOS sensors and security products, principally through various acquisitions in both hardware & software. They also industrially now sell CMOS sensors.
> 
> Apple design cell phones, computers, tablets, electronic watches, Apple TV and develop software. They provide services such as Apple Pay, App. Store & Apple Music so how is Canon going to benefit Apple or visa-versa.
> 
> According to Forbes Canon has a market cap. of $ 46.5bn and whilst Apple is supposedly the first $ 1 trillion company and has a large cash mountain you've really got to have a compelling argument to pay a premium on Canon market cap. It would mean Canon owns patents that have attached well developed, ground-breaking technology that Apple will desperately need. If that was the case Canon market cap would be much higher.



===

Canon has the SECOND LARGEST PATENT PORTFOLIO IN THE WORLD AFTER IBM !!!

Canon has patents on 8K+ display technologies, OLED, Quantum Dot Displays, inkjet and 3D printing patents, super-critical lens and liquid lens technologies, 7nm and less CMOS production technologies and so much more that Apple is DESPERATE TO GET !!! Apple ONLY WANTS the patent portfolio and maybe the printing division. The rest of Canon they would probably sell off probably to Sony or Philips in my opinion. Apple is also the only western company that would be able to get approval from the Japanese government for a sale of Canon to a foreign company.

My financial friends in New York, London and Seattle all say that Apple is on the Hunt for a corporate big fish to swallow. The inside bet is actually on Texas Instruments for their ARM chip manufacturing and DSP chip experience BUT Canon is also looking like a meaty and tasty deal for Apple to bite into!
I suspect it will be TI because they can get it for only $25 Billion US while Canon would be a $60 Billion fish to swallow which is a bit bigger and richer decision than Apple's board is likely to make. $25 Billion for TI would be a far better value for Apple. That's on the hardware side. In terms of Media and Software, I've heard Apple is looking at buying Netflix and some European companies like Canal+ and it's parent for content.

The other rumour mill has Sony going for Sigma to get lens making capacity for their ENTIRE video camera, still camera and cell phone sensor resale lines.

--

I absolutely CAN TELL YOU an extreme-breakthrough product IS COMING VERY SOON NOW that is going shake up the Stills and Video industry because the upcoming product line addresses four major product segments using ONE system. The unspecified manufacturer is one everyone knows but will SURPRISE you all for it's forward thinking, VERY ergonomic and Ruggedized IP-68 Weatherproofed nature........

REMEMBER ! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST !!!!!!!!


----------



## jolyonralph (Oct 3, 2018)

jeffa4444 said:


> I could get super technical but I wont.



I won't get technical either. But there are lenses that resolve better on the 5DSR than on the 5DIV. For day-to-day shooting it probably doesn't make much difference, but for high-resolution capture it does.

For example:

https://www.the-digital-picture.com...meraComp=979&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=3

Also, the higher the resolution the less negative effect the bayer filter introduces into your image.


----------



## RGF (Oct 3, 2018)

highdesertmesa said:


> I can't believe only one person in this entire thread gets this. Since Fujifilm will be releasing a GFX 100S with IBIS, 100mp, and full-frame 4K/10-bit/30fps, then certainly Canon and Nikon can produce a camera with high FPS at the 50-60mp range on a full frame sensor.



If Nikon can move 45 MP at 9 FPS in D850 with their grip, then Canon should be able to move 30MP at 1.5*9 FPS or 13/14 FPS.

Sony does 10 FPS at 42MP in the A7R III and the A9 does 20 FPS at 24MP.


----------



## Aaron D (Oct 4, 2018)

magarity said:


> Are they really ditching the model numbering system completely?



You could name one version Rs for a 'studio'/high-res body—no numbers required. Like-wise with an Rx (or 'f' for fast!) for a high-speed sports version, and Rt for a range-finder style travel camera. Then add i, ii, iii, iv… for updates. Smaller formats could have their own letter, say Q! or just use a lower case 'r'…...


----------



## Aaron D (Oct 4, 2018)

bestimage said:


> Noone is talking about sensor quality.
> 
> Also, can anyone explain why DSLRs/MILC don't have 16 bit color as opposed to medium format. May be Canon should introduce 16 bit color in their pro bodies



Yeah I second this! With about 50 M pixels. Then who would need medium format!

Some have asked why so many MPs? For me anyway, it would be so I could get what I need in a single exposure instead of having to stitch two together vertically. Two 24 mm TS-E images from a 5Div as opposed to One from a 5Ds and a 17mm TS-E. (I don't have an s or sr yet and want to hold out till I see what's coming in mirrorless) Or TS-E lenses with a tripod foot! And a 4:5 format sensor! But that would cause widespread panic.

Sorry to disappear into a rabbit hole….


----------



## sdz (Oct 4, 2018)

bhf3737 said:


> Canon’s latest Nanoimprint lithography (NIL) tool, used to produce semiconductor chips, is capable of producing sub-10nm feature sizes. [REF].
> Also, in Jan 2018 Nikkei Review reported that Canon to double output of chip making equipment.



This is great news.


----------



## stevelee (Oct 4, 2018)

Lurker said:


> I don't belong here, I'm such an amateur.  I can only afford laminate.



When I was planning this house, a friend who is a painter (and has a great eye for color) and who recently had some major remodeling done in their house, volunteered to go with me to the designer to pick out colors, flooring, grout, you name it. She had a huge slab of some kind of stone in her new kitchen. She discouraged me from getting stone, so I got laminate. I couldn't much afford high-end stuff anyway, and there was a chance that I might decide to rent the place out until I could move here for real. And then when I could, I'd repair the damages done by tenants and upgrade things in the process.

The reason I brought this up in the first place is that when folks here bring up the same little laundry list of camera features, I'm reminded of the HGTV house hunting shows I used to watch when I was decorating things here and watched some of their shows for ideas. Usually it was the wife who just *had* to have stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops for seemingly no reason other than everybody else had them. Personally, I don't like the combination. I don't think they go together well. But they look OK in certain types of kitchens.


----------



## Wdy111 (Oct 4, 2018)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> IBIS, Dual Card Slots, Joystick, high resolution sensor, faster readout and processing would be nice.


100% agree


----------



## mirage (Oct 4, 2018)

Aaron D said:


> You could name one version Rs for a 'studio'/high-res body—no numbers required. Like-wise with an Rx (or 'f' for fast!) for a high-speed sports version, and Rt for a range-finder style travel camera. Then add i, ii, iii, iv… for updates. Smaller formats could have their own letter, say Q! or just use a lower case 'r'…...




so funny! Customers trying to solve supplier's product naming scheme issues ... quite possibly it is the same at Canon and more employees
are working on this "huge and pressing problem", rather than on bringing the very products to market and making them fully functional and competitive.


----------



## Adelino (Oct 4, 2018)

stevelee said:


> When I was planning this house, a friend who is a painter (and has a great eye for color) and who recently had some major remodeling done in their house, volunteered to go with me to the designer to pick out colors, flooring, grout, you name it. She had a huge slab of some kind of stone in her new kitchen. She discouraged me from getting stone, so I got laminate. I couldn't much afford high-end stuff anyway, and there was a chance that I might decide to rent the place out until I could move here for real. And then when I could, I'd repair the damages done by tenants and upgrade things in the process.
> 
> The reason I brought this up in the first place is that when folks here bring up the same little laundry list of camera features, I'm reminded of the HGTV house hunting shows I used to watch when I was decorating things here and watched some of their shows for ideas. Usually it was the wife who just *had* to have stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops for seemingly no reason other than everybody else had them. Personally, I don't like the combination. I don't think they go together well. But they look OK in certain types of kitchens.


In fairness to those wives and couples on House Hunters, the producers made them say that about the stainless and granite.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 4, 2018)

jolyonralph said:


> But does that mean simply that the CFexpress cards will fit and work in XQD slots at XQD speeds? I'm not sure how a firmware update will update the entire system to have a significantly faster data throughput. Guess it depends on what hardware they have put in place in preparation for that.



Both XQD and CFexpress are using plain old PCIe as their interface, XQD maxes out at 2 lanes at PCIe 2.0 speeds, CFexpress maxes out at 8 lines at PCIe 3.0 speeds. The initial batch of CFexpress cards will use the XQD form factor and pinout, so the compatibility presumably consists of 2 parts:

CFexpress cards supporting a fallback to PCIe 2.0
XQD cameras whitelisting the CFexpress PCI IDs/classes
I'm actually a bit surprised that a software change is actually needed on the camera side, a brief read of the CFexpress spec boils down to "For the B formfactor we're using XQD, but will allow PCIe 3.0 speeds".


----------



## mirage (Oct 4, 2018)

Stubborn use of "CF"-derivative memory cards including exotic and expensive XQD instead of simply equipping "current standard implementation SD-type cards [moving to SD Express when it is ready for prime time] is just another of the many attempts by oligopolist imaging gear makers' to keep things as proprietary, profitable and customer-unfriendly as possible. There is no convincing technical reason to use [larger] CF-form factor cards in [stills-centric] cameras, rather than SD format or even better MicroSD format - as in most other mobile devices.


----------



## koenkooi (Oct 4, 2018)

RGF said:


> If Nikon can move 45 MP at 9 FPS in D850 with their grip, then Canon should be able to move 30MP at 1.5*9 FPS or 13/14 FPS.
> 
> Sony does 10 FPS at 42MP in the A7R III and the A9 does 20 FPS at 24MP.



But are those all at full resolution and bit depth? The sony manual has a lot of qualifiers for 20FPS: Use electronic shutter, the right lens(!!!), compressed raw. If you want full resulution and bitdepth for your raw files, it's suddenly 12FPS. And if you want to use the mechanical shutter it's only 5FPS.


----------



## AlanF (Oct 4, 2018)

stevelee said:


> When I was planning this house, a friend who is a painter (and has a great eye for color) and who recently had some major remodeling done in their house, volunteered to go with me to the designer to pick out colors, flooring, grout, you name it. She had a huge slab of some kind of stone in her new kitchen. She discouraged me from getting stone, so I got laminate. I couldn't much afford high-end stuff anyway, and there was a chance that I might decide to rent the place out until I could move here for real. And then when I could, I'd repair the damages done by tenants and upgrade things in the process.
> 
> The reason I brought this up in the first place is that when folks here bring up the same little laundry list of camera features, I'm reminded of the HGTV house hunting shows I used to watch when I was decorating things here and watched some of their shows for ideas. Usually it was the wife who just *had* to have stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops for seemingly no reason other than everybody else had them. Personally, I don't like the combination. I don't think they go together well. But they look OK in certain types of kitchens.


We put in granite and stainless steel into our kitchen exactly 20 years ago because I value quality and durability. Last week we returned after having rented out our house for 6 years to 3 sets of tenants. The granite and stainless steel are as pristine as 20 years ago. Laminate would have been needed to have been replaced maybe twice over that period and the cost would have been greater. And I love natural stone rather than plastic. If you can afford the best and most durable, get them. And if you can afford the best and most durable lenses and cameras, then enjoy them.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 4, 2018)

AlanF said:


> We put in granite and stainless steel into our kitchen exactly 20 years ago because I value quality and durability. Last week we returned after having rented out our house for 6 years to 3 sets of tenants. The granite and stainless steel are as pristine as 20 years ago. Laminate would have been needed to have been replaced maybe twice over that period and the cost would have been greater. And I love natural stone rather than plastic. If you can afford the best and most durable, get them. And if you can afford the best and most durable lenses and cameras, then enjoy them.



I love the feel of wood, but having tried solid oak worktops I wouldn't recommend it. Durable but too much maintenance, too easy to mark etc. But stone and metal are too harsh and I'd be worried about breaking things more easily... perhaps resin is the way forward? (If we're gonna go off topic, let's go waaaay off).


----------



## tron (Oct 4, 2018)

You are not 100% off topic. You are just discussing about ... Flagship ... kitchens!


----------



## stevelee (Oct 4, 2018)

Adelino said:


> In fairness to those wives and couples on House Hunters, the producers made them say that about the stainless and granite.


I should have realized that, given how repetitious it was. Later, it became more obvious how they had staged the conflicts between spouses, when the women came off consistently as real b----es and the men were ossified in their positions. I quit watching the network all together at that point. They no longer had relevant programs, and it was just more reality show crap like so much of cable has degenerated to.

That does make it all the more remarkable, since there are no producers forcing people to say things on this board, that I know of, at least.


----------



## stevelee (Oct 4, 2018)

scyrene said:


> I love the feel of wood, but having tried solid oak worktops I wouldn't recommend it. Durable but too much maintenance, too easy to mark etc. But stone and metal are too harsh and I'd be worried about breaking things more easily... perhaps resin is the way forward? (If we're gonna go off topic, let's go waaaay off).



If I ever replace my counter tops, I'll seriously consider quartz. But the laminate looks as good as it did when the house was built 14 years ago. Admittedly it doesn't get a lot of wear and tear. A lot of the time the lower level of the island is used to store photo equipment. The two new white lenses and some others are in the middle of the coffee table, safely between stacks of books. I really should get some shelving for them now that the collection has outgrown the shelf where I first put photo stuff.


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 4, 2018)

scyrene said:


> I love the feel of wood, but having tried solid oak worktops I wouldn't recommend it. Durable but too much maintenance, too easy to mark etc. But stone and metal are too harsh and I'd be worried about breaking things more easily... perhaps resin is the way forward? (If we're gonna go off topic, let's go waaaay off).


What about rubber? Some of us forum members are about due for the rubber room


----------



## Aaron D (Oct 4, 2018)

mirage said:


> so funny! Customers trying to solve supplier's product naming scheme issues ... quite possibly it is the same at Canon and more employees
> are working on this "huge and pressing problem", rather than on bringing the very products to market and making them fully functional and competitive.


OK so our fooling around with camera names is frivolous and a time waste—how does spending time commenting on a frivolous time waste compare? Just saying.


----------



## RobbieHat (Oct 4, 2018)

dak723 said:


> I also have no need or want for anything over 30 MP. I would prefer even less - 24 MP seems more than enough. Anything above 30 MP would be a real negative for me and I won't go there until I have to.


Then the EOS R is the camera for you. Just wait until the next generate when they add the second card slot and you are good. For some of us the lack of additional MP is the reason we have not pulled the trigger on the EOS R. I don't care about the two card slots, but do care about DR, MP, FPS. It allows me to use the 5DSR for both landscape and wildlife. If they improve on that sensor with additional DR, FPS and potential crop mode I would be the first one in line as a buyer. Dual card slots and the rest are nice but not a requirement. I can carry extra cards and batteries in my pocket.


----------



## scyrene (Oct 4, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> What about rubber? Some of us forum members are about due for the rubber room



That conjures up a rather different image to me than to you, I suspect...


----------



## cayenne (Oct 4, 2018)

I would likely go "R", if they came out with the equivalent of the 5DV in R.....dual cards, hopefully full 4K...fps, etc.

If they kept it in the $3K or maybe slightly under range with a good R kit lens, I'm on board....I guess I'd splurge and get all 3 adapters, as that I'd like to play with ND filters on it, etc.....

Hoping this will be something like what comes next.

That's my $0.02,

cayenne


----------



## highdesertmesa (Oct 4, 2018)

RGF said:


> If Nikon can move 45 MP at 9 FPS in D850 with their grip, then Canon should be able to move 30MP at 1.5*9 FPS or 13/14 FPS.
> 
> Sony does 10 FPS at 42MP in the A7R III and the A9 does 20 FPS at 24MP.



Exactly. Canon and everyone else shouldn't need to keep their high res and high FPS cameras split up any longer. And sooner or later someone like Sony will deliver on what the Canon 1D-C hinted at, which is one day being able to pull our full-res, 30+ MP RAW stills out of short 24-30fps video bursts.


----------



## bokehmon22 (Oct 4, 2018)

If Canon release 45-50 mpx, at least they have the option for medium raw unlike Sony.


----------



## Don Haines (Oct 4, 2018)

scyrene said:


> That conjures up a rather different image to me than to you, I suspect...


The rubber room..... padded walls.... straight jacket..... You know, the place where people who believe these rumors end up......


----------



## brad-man (Oct 4, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> The rubber room..... padded walls.... straight jacket..... You know, the place where people who believe these rumors end up......


Here's the waiting room for the rubber room...


----------



## Adelino (Oct 4, 2018)

stevelee said:


> I should have realized that, given how repetitious it was. Later, it became more obvious how they had staged the conflicts between spouses, when the women came off consistently as real b----es and the men were ossified in their positions. I quit watching the network all together at that point. They no longer had relevant programs, and it was just more reality show crap like so much of cable has degenerated to.
> 
> That does make it all the more remarkable, since there are no producers forcing people to say things on this board, that I know of, at least.


Or maybe there are "producers" forcing them to say things....


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## PGSanta (Oct 4, 2018)

As a current Sony/Nikon user; if Canon releases a high MP EOS R I'll ditch Nikon and pick it up. I'm really impressed with the ergos and build on the EOS R, but the current model just doesn't fill any needs for me. A high MP version, with two slots would help me ditch Nikon, and use it for my landscapes.

Cmon Canon... doooooo iittttttt.


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## Don Haines (Oct 5, 2018)

Adelino said:


> Or maybe there are "producers" forcing them to say things....


There may be a bot or two that say “I’m switching to Sony” and “Canon is *******”.....


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## bertzie (Oct 5, 2018)

highdesertmesa said:


> Exactly. Canon and everyone else shouldn't need to keep their high res and high FPS cameras split up any longer. And sooner or later someone like Sony will deliver on what the Canon 1D-C hinted at, which is one day being able to pull our full-res, 30+ MP RAW stills out of short 24-30fps video bursts.



The split between high res cameras and the rest isn't just about FPS. Lower megapixel count also allows for better low-light performance, ala the A7s.


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## aa_angus (Oct 5, 2018)

It won't have IBIS. One CF slot, one SD. That's enough overkill.


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## Jethro (Oct 5, 2018)

bertzie said:


> The split between high res cameras and the rest isn't just about FPS. Lower megapixel count also allows for better low-light performance, ala the A7s.


I'd prefer it to be 'lower' MP for this reason - but the latest rumours seem to point to a high MP next iteration. Most of the new lenses seem to be designed with a high MP sensor in mind, so its really not a surprise. And if so, cue immediate arguments about why they would want to release parallel 5DS/R mkii and FFM versions of such a niche high MP body?


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## RGF (Oct 5, 2018)

highdesertmesa said:


> Exactly. Canon and everyone else shouldn't need to keep their high res and high FPS cameras split up any longer. And sooner or later someone like Sony will deliver on what the Canon 1D-C hinted at, which is one day being able to pull our full-res, 30+ MP RAW stills out of short 24-30fps video bursts.



Once 8K video takes hold, 32 MP stills at 60 FPS. Storage will be a challenge as will be find the one frame out of many to select. That is a problem I welcome


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## Hector1970 (Oct 5, 2018)

Where's the joy in pulling 30+ MP Raw stills out of 24-30 FPS Video bursts?
That's not going to lead to good photography.
I think some people think technology improvements will eventually allow them take a good photograph.
They don't seem to realise with practice and learning you can already take a good photograph with what you have.

Data storage is already starting to be a pain in the butt. 
This year for the first time I'm over 2TB of photos in a year. 
I'm overloaded with external hard drives collected over the year (high risk of issues at some point - same for SSD)
The 5DSR raw files are huge and frankly not worth it.
4K video is real pain too to do anything proper with. I can't image what type of laptop I'd need to be dealing with 8K.

I think they should be focussing more on high ISO performance and reduce the MPs to 24MP's or lower.
The MP race may not be over but the benefits are minimal (unless you want to hugely crop your photographs - which if you need to do you should learn how to take a proper photograph or use your legs more)
ISO has come a long way in few years but even better performance would be really useful.


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## jolyonralph (Oct 5, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> The MP race may not be over but the benefits are minimal (unless you want to hugely crop your photographs - which if you need to do you should learn how to take a proper photograph or use your legs more)



Well, if you're taking photos at, for example, of birds or aircraft in flight the leg movement isn't going to help!


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## tron (Oct 5, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Where's the joy in pulling 30+ MP Raw stills out of 24-30 FPS Video bursts?
> That's not going to lead to good photography.
> I think some people think technology improvements will eventually allow them take a good photograph.
> They don't seem to realise with practice and learning you can already take a good photograph with what you have.
> ...


You know there is this thing called bird photography where your smart suggestions about learning how to take a proper photograph or use the legs more do not apply. There is a limit to how big a telephoto can someone buy and/or handle.

EDIT: And I just saw that jolyonralph had already replied to this 3 minutes before my post


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## cayenne (Oct 5, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Where's the joy in pulling 30+ MP Raw stills out of 24-30 FPS Video bursts?
> <snip>
> 4K video is real pain too to do anything proper with. I can't image what type of laptop I'd need to be dealing with 8K.
> 
> <snip>



Well, if you're working with 4K and higher video, you likely need to look at something more along the lines of a workstation rather than a laptop.

You need more beef than a laptop can generally offer, especially if you start getting into effects, rendering things....color grading and correcting, etc...that stuff eats up a LOT of GPU/CPU and RAM that you're not going to be able to squeeze into a laptop.

I've been doing it (only up to 1080p) on a MBP that was loaded when I got it late 2011...maxed with 16GB ram, external thunderbolt work and cache drives, and replaced onboard drive with SSD....and it is looking VERY long in the tooth.

I've been bogging it down with large photoshop jobs even, no motion, but multiple images for large panos or HDR or stacking....and newer work flows allowing layers and all with RAW workflow.....well, let's just say I'm saving my pennies for more of a real desktop workstation for heavy work like that.

For working on the road a little the laptops (or even the iPad pro with Affinity Photo on it) prove to be very useful to keep doing some work when away from the desktop mothership, but for heavy lifting, you're likely needing to look to invest in some sort of fairly beefy desktop.

4K video and up? That take some muscle....


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## tron (Oct 5, 2018)

RGF said:


> Once 8K video takes hold, 32 MP stills at 60 FPS. Storage will be a challenge as will be find the one frame out of many to select. That is a problem I welcome


Well, once 8K video takes hold many will say that Canon that supports only 4K is ******* and that they prefer Sony and did I say Canon is *******?


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## highdesertmesa (Oct 5, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Where's the joy in pulling 30+ MP Raw stills out of 24-30 FPS Video bursts?
> That's not going to lead to good photography.
> I think some people think technology improvements will eventually allow them take a good photograph.
> They don't seem to realise with practice and learning you can already take a good photograph with what you have.
> ...



The camera would do something like what Apple is doing with the new Xs phones: Display the image that represents the moment you took the shot but keep the pre- and post-recorded burst around it. All optional, of course, so no need to lose any "joy" if you don't wish to.

Storage is always a PITA. But there's no reason to think they would stop you from using a lower-resolution burst (SRAW perhaps). I do think they should give you the option to record the video burst as actual video or as individual image frames.


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## highdesertmesa (Oct 5, 2018)

tron said:


> Well, once 8K video takes hold many will say that Canon that supports only 4K is ******* and that they prefer Sony and did I say Canon is *******?



They will always say Canon is *******, lol. But I do think someday we'll be discussing image resolution in K more than we do MP.


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## Don Haines (Oct 5, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> The MP race may not be over but the benefits are minimal (unless you want to hugely crop your photographs - which if you need to do you should learn how to take a proper photograph or use your legs more)



I was taking pictures of the Andromeda galaxy last night. I tried to get closer by standing on a ladder, but it didn't seem to make a difference.....


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## cantgetagrip (Oct 5, 2018)

You need a longer ladder...


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## RGF (Oct 5, 2018)

tron said:


> Well, once 8K video takes hold many will say that Canon that supports only 4K is ******* and that they prefer Sony and did I say Canon is *******?



Canon is not *******. It still suffers from the problems it had with the 1D M3. Before this camera, they were very aggressive with technology, eye controlled focus, DO, .. after that they have been much more conservative (too conservative if you ask me). But as a market leader they need to be conservative to preserve the market share. But also a market leader they need to defend against the *perception* that other companies, such a Nikon and Sony, are more innovative.

They are in a non-win position


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## Hector1970 (Oct 5, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I was taking pictures of the Andromeda galaxy last night. I tried to get closer by standing on a ladder, but it didn't seem to make a difference.....


Have you tried improbability drive. This would be key to getting really close. Much better than a high megapixel camera.


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## Hector1970 (Oct 5, 2018)

Interesting point seeing as I do a fair bit of bird photography myself. I've never found high MP a substitute to using field craft to get closer to the subject when photographing birds. Closer is always way better. A flash extender can be pretty helpful too at times.


tron said:


> You know there is this thing called bird photography where your smart suggestions about learning how to take a proper photograph or use the legs more do not apply. There is a limit to how big a telephoto can someone buy and/or handle.
> 
> EDIT: And I just saw that jolyonralph had already replied to this 3 minutes before my post


st


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## Don Haines (Oct 5, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Interesting point seeing as I do a fair bit of bird photography myself. I've never found high MP a substitute to using field craft to get closer to the subject when photographing birds. Closer is always way better. A flash extender can be pretty helpful too at times.
> st


I agree that there is no substitute for fieldcraft... most of the time...

Unfortunately, sometimes your target is way up a tree, or on the other side of a creek or pond....


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## tron (Oct 6, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Interesting point seeing as I do a fair bit of bird photography myself. I've never found high MP a substitute to using field craft to get closer to the subject when photographing birds. Closer is always way better. A flash extender can be pretty helpful too at times.
> st


Well last time I checked a flash extender does not bring birds closer. 

Seriously now stating the obvious maybe but even better is closer with many Mpixels. But the best case scenario is not always possible.


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## takesome1 (Oct 6, 2018)

Don Haines said:


> I was taking pictures of the Andromeda galaxy last night. I tried to get closer by standing on a ladder, but it didn't seem to make a difference.....



Obviously you weren't using Jacob's ladder.


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## Del Paso (Oct 10, 2018)

Hector1970 said:


> Where's the joy in pulling 30+ MP Raw stills out of 24-30 FPS Video bursts?
> That's not going to lead to good photography.
> I think some people think technology improvements will eventually allow them take a good photograph.
> They don't seem to realise with practice and learning you can already take a good photograph with what you have.
> ...


YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT IN EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!


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## Go Wild (Oct 17, 2018)

Del Paso said:


> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT IN EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!




Well, no he is not! I´m sorry but no! Because he is missing the most important thing, not everybody has his needs, not everybody makes photography or video like he does...And even so, there are solutions! 

Well, let´s start for the video. If you are using a laptop and external drives to edit 4k video, then you are not a videographer. Maybe someone that like video and sometimes makes some fancy videos to put on youtube. If you need 4k and if you make videos professionally (and saying professionally is like earning money, not about quality), then you´ll need a lot more equipment. You´ll need a powerfull PC (I work with 2), you´ll need some raid sistems, or a powerfull worksatiton to storage your data and to be able to work your data. Working with 4k videos from an external drive is a potencial risk to ruin your drive. Also, if you work with a laptop and external hard drive...well....that´s not a suitable solution for 4k video editing. Unless you have a powerfull macbook pro, but even so, it´s not the most suitable...
Saying that, i do understand your words about video and storage....but not everybody has that opinion or needs...

About photography.....well this one i really understand less...He´s complaining about how hard is to storage photos, and how "heavy" are the 5ds photos? Did i get it right?? Well, this is like buying a Ferrary and then complaining how much it consumes in fuel....This type of cameras have specific uses. 50MP photos are NOT the kind of photos you want if you are going to the park making 400 photos of your dog jumping to catch a ball...But ok, you can use it for everything. If you don´t need or you think the 50MP are a lot to you, it´s so simple....just use lower resolutions!!!! You can do it in you options! But by all means, DO NOT say that 50MP´s are a lot and they are not needed in photography!! Maybe yes, it is too much for the dog photos, but for a lot of things, yes, you do need MP´s. 

So don´t get me wrong, i am not trying to criticize..but i think we are talking of 2 different types of photography and video...a more amateur use and a professional use. And it´s ok to be amateur, but by all means, do not buy professional cameras and then criticize it because of the storage or if 4k video is hard to edit...That´s just not right!! 

Regarding to the topic, I do believe Canon will make both cameras, one with higher MP, and a "fast camera". I think the first to come is the high MP´s pretty much because the lenses you have available. Doesn´t make much sense to me, launching a fast camera, when you don´t have a 70-200 RF, 100-400 RF, or the big ones (there are rumours of a 600mm DO for RF sistem, but only in 2020.....) So according to lenses, it would make a lot of sense to launch first the high mp. (Sony make that mistake with the A9, but eve so, they have launched the 70-200 and the 100-400 at the same time....)

Looking forward to see what´s next of Canon, the EOS R was a good surprise, but I am waiting a pro body to see if i leave my A7R3 and get back to Canon sistem 100%. Would love to have a A7r3 equvalent to work with the 1dx mkII. 

Cheers


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