# Canon officially announces the EOS 90D and EOS M6 Mark II



## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 28, 2019)

> Both Cameras Feature a 32.5 Megapixel APS-C CMOS Sensor, High-Speed Continuous Shooting, Dual Pixel CMOS AF and Uncropped 4K UHD Video Recording Capability
> MELVILLE, N.Y., August 28, 2019 – It is often said that in life, having two options is generally considered a good thing. Today, Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, introduced two advanced amateur ILC cameras, the EOS 90D and EOS M6 Mark II. These two models usher in the next generation of Canon APS-C sensor cameras and share many similar characteristics, while also being uniquely different at the same time. Both cameras are designed to fit the needs and preferences of a variety of photographers taking into account their skill level and subject matter.
> *Preorder the Canon EOS 90D and Canon EOS M6 Mark II*
> 
> ...




[url=https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-officially-announces-the-eos-90d-and-eos-m6-mark-ii/]Continue reading...


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## Jones (Aug 28, 2019)

What a great camera, this EOS 90D. Now it's time to upgrade from my 400D which is starting to fall apart after 40.000 shots.
Finally, after years of waiting, the time has come.


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

So as I expected, the 1/16000 shutter speed is with electronic shutter, like in the original 1D. The soft shutter on the 80D is an interesting tidbit.


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## Canon Rumors Guy (Aug 28, 2019)

The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.


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## Chaitanya (Aug 28, 2019)

no Dual SD Slots as expected, still will be getting this to replace my broken 500D. Wondering what buffer is for continuous shooting.
Edit: found the buffer depth and at best its unimpressive. Overall it does seem like Canon has done decent job of crippling this camera as well.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 28, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.


Says who?


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## flip314 (Aug 28, 2019)

Jones said:


> What a great camera, this EOS 90D. Now it's time to upgrade from my 400D which is starting to fall apart after 40.000 shots.
> Finally, after years of waiting, the time has come.



Congratulations. As someone who upgraded from the 300D (which I bought the year it came out) to the 80D, I'm pretty sure you're going to love it.


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Says who?




At least DPReview reports that they asked Canon about it and apparently the M62 is replacing both the M5 and the M6. A shame, really. I realize the M5/M6 division was always about experimenting which form factor ends up more popular, but I'd like to think that there exists room on the M line for an enthusiast model with an integrated viewfinder. (Also with a tilty-flippy screen while we're at it…)


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## TrubadorPhotography (Aug 28, 2019)

Mid-September... My birthday gift to myself... Hello, 90D!


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 28, 2019)

I am very keen to hear reports about the Image quality when they come out


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## TPatS (Aug 28, 2019)

So according to the specs it will have 24fps recording for you movie makers out there. In 1080p only though.


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I am very keen to hear reports about the Image quality when they come out



DPReview has downloadable RAWs, now we just need a way to open them


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## Chaitanya (Aug 28, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> DPReview has downloadable RAWs, now we just need a way to open them


DNG converters to the rescue.


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

So the M6II has up to 14 fps shooting with full AF, but the 90D in Live View only does 7 fps with AF or 11 fps without. I wonder whence the difference, or if it's Just Canon Things. With the DPAF tracking, I wonder if the M6II ends up being the one better suited for shooting action, at least in some cases


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## M. D. Vaden of Oregon (Aug 28, 2019)

And with 3 card slots --- impressive !!


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Edit: found the buffer depth and at best its unimpressive. Overall it does seem like Canon has done decent job of crippling this camera as well.



Bah, 32Mpix at 10fps is a lot of data to move, though I would have expected a larger difference between UHS-I and UHS-II cards. I expect the buffer flushing time to be noticeably faster with UHS-II, however.

Anyway, when shooting action I see no reason not to use C-RAW; the loss of information really is minimal. 39 C-RAWs at 10fps is quite impressive and should be enough for anyone considering this camera.


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## jonbenz (Aug 28, 2019)

1199$ for a camera that don't do 24fps 1080p video? what is this? 2008? hahaha!


When all its predecessors has it (70D, 80D, 77d, even the rebels) There is no excuse but to wanted crippling the camera.

Sad! I was really hoping to upgrade my 70D, but none the RP/90D do 24fps


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## Cryve (Aug 28, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> DNG converters to the rescue.


How would one convert to dng? Help me out here please.


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

Cryve said:


> How would one convert to dng? Help me out here please.



In practice, you don't right now, as Adobe's DNG Converter almost certainly doesn't support 90D RAWs yet.


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## -pekr- (Aug 28, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.



If this is true, then it is a bit surprising. I was expecting some product differentiation, e.g. that M5 II is going to get an IBIS, thinking Canon was not ready with the feature in time, so that's a reason M5 II will get released later. But if there is not going to be any M5 II, we are going to live without an IBIS the whole one iteration, which means few years.


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## Chaitanya (Aug 28, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Bah, 32Mpix at 10fps is a lot of data to move, though I would have expected a larger difference between UHS-I and UHS-II cards. I expect the buffer flushing time to be noticeably faster with UHS-II, however.
> 
> Anyway, when shooting action I see no reason not to use C-RAW; the loss of information really is minimal. 39 C-RAWs at 10fps is quite impressive and should be enough for anyone considering this camera.


That additional 1 frame gain from UHS-II SD card doesn't inspire confidence. High end UHS-II cards are capable of delivering write speeds in excess of 240MB/s so wondering if the UHS-II controller used for this camera doesn't support half duplex(312MB/s) and restricted it to full duplex(156MB/s). Even with UHS-I standard it was only with release of 80D that Canon was able to support the fastest write performance(SDR104) and it was lagging behind competition in that aspect for the longest time. This camera already has AA filter so wondering how much more detail we are going to lose from using compressed C-RAW format in order to gain additional buffer depth.

Found an unboxing video of this camera:


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## 4D (Aug 28, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> Says who?




Digidirect here in Aus say the viewfinder is no longer optional, it's included in the box! Not bad.

Edit: I now see some do and some don't.


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## Memirsbrunnr (Aug 28, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.


That is horrific... was interested in an M5 not M6


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## SecureGSM (Aug 28, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.


Wow... Keen to understand how I am supposed to use an on camera flash or off camera with a radio transmitter with EVF attached at the same time ? Genuine question though.


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## SteveCheetham (Aug 28, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.


Has this been confirmed by Canon, or is it a summation based on them bundling the hotshoe EVF with some of the kits? This would be a shame IMHO, I do like my M5 with built-in EVF. I guess that in the brave new world of decreasing camera sales, Canon need to rationalise their products lines and reduce development costs.


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 28, 2019)

Regarding buffer depth I just saw the JP preview vid and he noted it was a pretty decent buffer on the 90d. Up to 8sec of shooting. So there seems to be some mixed msgs here and it might be better to wait for more details.


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## Quarkcharmed (Aug 28, 2019)

Sooo... When do we know what the dynamic range is. I guess it's the same sensor on both cameras. Eager to see a review on DR, noise, low light...


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## Chaitanya (Aug 28, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Regarding buffer depth I just saw the JP preview vid and he noted it was a pretty decent buffer on the 90d. Up to 8sec of shooting. So there seems to be some mixed msgs here and it might be better to wait for more details.


Even I watched the video, Canon's own website has put out quite lowly buffer figures. Even with those mixed messages overall 90D has been crippled on purpose(Micro-B connector instead of Type-C on USB-2.0 controller, single SD Slot instead of two, according to official specs very low buffer and UHS-II slot just there as a checkmark on specsheet rather than being something that will make difference in day to day use) just like many other products in Canon's line-up.


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 28, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Even I watched the video, Canon's own website has put out quite lowly buffer figures. Even with those mixed messages overall 90D has been crippled on purpose(Micro-B connector instead of Type-C on USB-2.0 controller, single SD Slot instead of two, according to official specs very low buffer and UHS-II slot just there as a checkmark on specsheet rather than being something that will make difference in day to day use) just like many other products in Canon's line-up.


Yet it will still be better than the best Sony DSLR. And better than all but the 3k plus sony mirrorless bodies from the looks of things. At least you will be able to hold it without hurting your hands.


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Even I watched the video, Canon's own website has put out quite lowly buffer figures. [blah blah]



The 90D has _double the data rate_ compared to the 80D while keeping the maximum burst the same for lossless RAW. Additionally there's a _completely new_ option to store minimally lossy C-RAW which _doubles_ the maximum burst. Only a _very special_ person would call that "crippling".

The 90D has a single card slot, just like _every other x0D model in history_, and just like _every comparative model_ from other manufacturers. Again, it takes a _very special_ person to call that "crippling".


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## Chaitanya (Aug 28, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Yet it will still be better than the best Sony DSLR. And better than all but the 3k plus sony mirrorless bodies from the looks of things. At least you will be able to hold it without hurting your hands.


Ergonomically definitely it is far better than any Sony MILC on market, I use 180mm OS Macro from time to time and with Sony A7 III(with adapter) it was painful after a short while. In future when I switch to MILC it would be either Canon or Nikon never going to buy Sony camera. I still cannot understand why would Canon not use Type-C port on 90D but it is present on cheaper and smaller M6 mk II.


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 28, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Ergonomically definitely it is far better than any Sony MILC on market, I use 180mm OS Macro from time to time and with Sony A7 III(with adapter) it was painful after a short while. In future when I switch to MILC it would be either Canon or Nikon never going to buy Sony camera. I still cannot understand why would Canon not use Type-C port on 90D but it is present on cheaper and smaller M6 mk II.


It does seem strange. My guess is it saved production costs as there would have been less change from the 80d body. Less cost equals higher profits


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## -pekr- (Aug 28, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> The 90D has _double the data rate_ compared to the 80D while keeping the maximum burst the same for uncompressed RAW. Additionally there's a _completely new_ option to store minimally lossy C-RAW which _doubles_ the maximum burst. Only a _very special_ person can call that "crippling".
> 
> The 90D has a single card slot, just like _every other x0D model in history_, and just like _every comparative model_ from other manufacturers. Again, only a _very special_ person can call that "crippling".



To your last paragraph - not unless there is 7D III or M5 II coming. Which, most probably, don't. Those who want to upgrade from either the 7DII or the M5, are losing some features. And without those features being replaced, OP has the right to call it whatever, even the crippling.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 28, 2019)

In short, the complaints are mostly about why Canon is not selling a 7D3 for $1200...


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## -pekr- (Aug 28, 2019)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> In short, the complaints are mostly about why Canon is not selling a 7D3 for $1200...



No, the comlaints are mostly about why Canon dismissed the 7DII and M5 replacements ... if, for e.g. there is so many Rebel lines noone can ever count them  ....


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 28, 2019)

Notable things from the spec sheet/brochure, aside from those we already know from previous leaks: panning assist in OVF shooting w/ certain lenses, DPAF in 4K, -5EV AF in LV, 5481 AF pts. in LV.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 28, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> No, the comlaints are mostly about why Canon dismissed the 7DII and M5 replacements ... if, for e.g. there is so many Rebel lines noone can ever count them  ....


Already explained, the contracting market necessitated a reduction in number of product lines. If there was an upcoming 7D3 you won't be getting 10FPS in this one, simple as that.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 28, 2019)

> if, for e.g. there is so many Rebel lines noone can ever count them



Also, why do you assume the Rebel bodies won't be reduced as well? All indications are those would be rationalized as well.


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## dtaylor (Aug 28, 2019)

jonbenz said:


> 1199$ for a camera that don't do 24fps 1080p video? what is this? 2008? hahaha!



I have to admit, the missing 24p is baffling. It simply cannot be to protect the cinema line. There are so many other features that distinguish and separate Canon's cinema cameras. What is Canon thinking when it comes to 24p? Are they thinking it will push people to the R?

These are nice cameras but missing 24p is going to drive some sales to other brands. It makes no sense to leave it out.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 28, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> No, the comlaints are mostly about why Canon dismissed the 7DII and M5 replacements ... if, for e.g. there is so many Rebel lines noone can ever count them  ....


Yet another reminder that this forum is not representative of the general camera-buying public. Here, it’s 7-series > xxD and M5 > M6...but Canon knows which models sell best.


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> To your last paragraph - not unless there is 7D III or M5 II coming. Which, most probably, don't. Those who want to upgrade from either the 7DII or the M5, are losing some features. And without those features being replaced, OP has the right to call it whatever, even the crippling.



Well, assuming an R equivalent of 7D isn't coming.



Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> Notable things from the spec sheet/brochure, aside from those we already know from previous leaks: panning assist in OVF shooting w/ certain lenses, DPAF in 4K, -5EV AF in LV, 5481 AF pts. in LV.



There is a panning SCN mode; not sure yet if it's available in other modes.



dtaylor said:


> I have to admit, the missing 24p is baffling. It simply cannot be to protect the cinema line. There are so many other features that distinguish and separate Canon's cinema cameras. What is Canon thinking when it comes to 24p? Are they thinking it will push people to the R?



I wouldn't be surprised if less than 1% of all 80D owners have _ever_ used the 24p mode.


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## Mikehit (Aug 28, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> I have to admit, the missing 24p is baffling. It simply cannot be to protect the cinema line. There are so many other features that distinguish and separate Canon's cinema cameras. What is Canon thinking when it comes to 24p? Are they thinking it will push people to the R?
> 
> These are nice cameras but missing 24p is going to drive some sales to other brands. It makes no sense to leave it out.



How many people know the differenc between 24p and 30p?
How many people can tell the difference between 24 p and 30p?
How many people need 24P?
How many people care? 
Canon will consider all of these before designing their cameras.

I have no idea how easy/complex it is to add 24p to the repertoire but I guess it is not as easy as some pretend.


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## dtaylor (Aug 28, 2019)

Quarkcharmed said:


> Eager to see a review on DR, noise, low light...



DR: it's impossible to make a full evaluation from JP's DNG files, but to the extent that there are dark areas/shadows they do not band or break down when pushed. I would guess comparable to or better than the 80D which was good by industry standards.

Noise: JP didn't have any high ISO files in the zip archive I downloaded. ISO 400 looked typical for APS-C. The extra MP should help with sharpness deeper into high ISO so you don't end up amplifying noise with sharpening. But the noise itself is going to be similar to other crop bodies. (Everyone talks about low light, high ISO differences. But within a format shipping bodies are generally all within a fraction of a stop of each other.)

*Side note:* I thought DPReview's samples...or at least the ones I looked at...were soft and a bit "mushy." Could have been the lens, could have been the JPEG compression, perhaps both. JP's DNG files looked much, much better.


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## dtaylor (Aug 28, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> How many people know the differenc between 24p and 30p?
> How many people can tell the difference between 24 p and 30p?
> How many people need 24P?
> How many people care?



How many people will buy a different camera because it's missing? Why lose those sales over a software change? If the Magic Lantern team had the 90D reverse engineered they could add 24p tomorrow morning.

I'll defend some of the decisions based on the tiers these cameras are in. Compared to the competition _in the same tier/at the same price point_ these look pretty good. People wanting a 7D3 at xxD pricing don't seem to grasp that. 

But don't leave out a significant video feature which involves nothing but a few extra lines of code. Especially when you're struggling against the perception that you're behind on video.


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## koenkooi (Aug 28, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> [..]
> *Side note:* I thought DPReview's samples...or at least the ones I looked at...were soft and a bit "mushy." Could have been the lens, could have been the JPEG compression, perhaps both. JP's DNG files looked much, much better.



DPReview tends to make strange choices for the samples from Canon cameras, it's usually a RAW file run through ACR with sharpening turned off. Personally I'd use SOOC jpegs or use the default ACR settings.
The DPReview gallery does have CR3s available, running those through DPP with DLO should make them look much, much better.


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> How many people will buy a different camera because it's missing?



Probably around two or three.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 28, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Probably around two or three.


One day, it might go as high as five. But we really don’t know what that would do, so let’s start with what we have, shall we?


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## Mikehit (Aug 28, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> But don't leave out a significant video feature which involves nothing but a few extra lines of code.



Do you know that for a hard-bitten fact, or is it an assumption?
Because if it is really that easy and that important why do not all manufacturers not do it at all levels of camera?


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Aug 28, 2019)

The target market for the video features of this body, the YouTubers & vloggers, mostly upload 1080p30/720p30 videos, so I dunno why some think 1080p24 would be a huge deal for them.


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

*Now, what I'd really like to know is:*

Whether the body is (at least partially) "aluminum alloy" as mentioned by some sources, or just polycarbonate like the 80D.
Whether the weather sealing has been improved; again, some sources say yes, others no.
What's the crop factor in cropped 4K mode (spec sheets suggest 1.18, making it probable that it's 3:2 downsampled from 6K)
Whether the electronic level is one-axis or two-axis.


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## scyrene (Aug 28, 2019)

Never thought I'd go back to APS-C but the 90D is tempting me as a casual bird camera. It looks to be pretty cheap, the resolution is a big step up, and although I've generally been content with 5-6fps I'd not mind a bit more. I'll watch where the price goes in the next few months.


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## Eagle Eye (Aug 28, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.


Can you tell us the foundation for your declaration? If this were a rumor or confirmed, it would typically have a stand-alone blog entry and not appear in the comments.


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## Kit. (Aug 28, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> How many people will buy a different camera because it's missing?


Not enough to pay for extra support hours from people who misuse this mode without understanding what it is for?



dtaylor said:


> Why lose those sales over a software change? If the Magic Lantern team had the 90D reverse engineered they could add 24p tomorrow morning.


Maybe. But then the question "why my videos flicker" would be directed at Magic Lantern.


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## SlydeR (Aug 28, 2019)

Screenshot from Official spec sheet on Canon website...I've attached the pdf



dtaylor said:


> I have to admit, the missing 24p is baffling. It simply cannot be to protect the cinema line. There are so many other features that distinguish and separate Canon's cinema cameras. What is Canon thinking when it comes to 24p? Are they thinking it will push people to the R?
> 
> These are nice cameras but missing 24p is going to drive some sales to other brands. It makes no sense to leave it out.


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

SlydeR said:


> Screenshot from Official spec sheet on Canon website...I've attached the pdf



Yes, this is interesting. But it is possible that those modes have been accidentally left there if the 80D spec sheet has been used as a starting point. Canon UK specs don't mention MOV, ALL-I, or 24p modes.


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## AprilForever (Aug 28, 2019)

The rumors were saying for a while that Canon was merging the 7d and XXd lines; Canon does not seem to indicate this in what I saw. Has anyone seen anything else?


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## pknight (Aug 28, 2019)

I think that those of you suggesting that 7DII users want a 7DIII at the $1200 price point are simply wrong. I would pay substantially more than $1200 for a real 7DIII, with two card slots, improved FPS, dual processors, 65+ AF points, etc. The 90D is going to have to have amazing IQ _and_ AF performance (relative to the 7DII) for me to consider a purchase.


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## Ricardo_fon (Aug 28, 2019)

Eagle Eye said:


> Can you tell us the foundation for your declaration? If this were a rumor or confirmed, it would typically have a stand-alone blog entry and not appear in the comments.


This is what DP Review is reporting


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## amorse (Aug 28, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> Do you know that for a hard-bitten fact, or is it an assumption?
> Because if it is really that easy and that important why do not all manufacturers not do it at all levels of camera?


To be fair, Canon has included 24p in nearly every ILC they have released since they started putting video in cameras. Up until now, 24p 1080 was in every ILC Canon has released since the 5D II with three exceptions: Canon RP, T1, T1i. Both the T1 and T1i models were released only months after the 5DII, and offered 20 fps instead (I'm going to bet technical limitation there), but the RP seemed to be a purposeful omission. Even the 4000D with its plastic mount has 1080/24. Neuro and I had a good back and forth on this not long ago and supposed that maybe Canon was not including 24p from new cameras as a change in direction or philosophy on video. He may well have been right in seeing the final specifications here.

Frankly, I don't understand the choice by Canon as it has been feasible to put on every camera up and down the lineup until now, but no longer. I'm no engineer so maybe a new sensor architecture is impacting inclusion of the rate, or maybe Canon is choosing not to include it. I really don't understand why they'd choose not to include it, but then again I don't run a multi-billion dollar camera company either.

For me, even if a very small number of people actually use the feature, it is just baiting criticism and negative review. It wouldn't impact my use and wouldn't likely stop me from buying it, but I don't see why they're creating reasons to criticize the camera.


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## amorse (Aug 28, 2019)

SlydeR said:


> Screenshot from Official spec sheet on Canon website...I've attached the pdf


Good find! Interesting that 24 is there for 1080 but not 4K. Maybe they are indeed removing 24 from top resolution video modes.


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## SlydeR (Aug 28, 2019)

I think the main issue is at 4k 24...only 30 available... 



Sharlin said:


> Yes, this is interesting. But it is possible that those modes have been accidentally left there if the 80D spec sheet has been used as a starting point. Canon UK specs don't mention MOV, ALL-I, or 24p modes.


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## Don Haines (Aug 28, 2019)

Canon may not be *******, but my bank account is


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

SlydeR said:


> I think the main issue is at 4k 24...only 30 available...



And 25, just a menu setting away. Seriously, you people got to have pretty professional needs if that’s not close enough to 24, and in that case you should probably acquire a professional camera.


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## TPatS (Aug 28, 2019)

For me, it's more the worrying lack of ALL-I. We first saw this on the 6D2 and i'm confused why they would omit if the 80D had it.


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## Durf (Aug 28, 2019)

Prepared for dozens upon dozens of YouTube videos and forum posts complaining about these 2 camera's. 

regardless, the 90D looks to be better than the 80D and I'll likely buy one within the next year or so when someone holds a decent cut in price on it....(still lovin' the 80D and not in no hurry to replace it).


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## amorse (Aug 28, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> I have to admit, the missing 24p is baffling. It simply cannot be to protect the cinema line. There are so many other features that distinguish and separate Canon's cinema cameras. What is Canon thinking when it comes to 24p? Are they thinking it will push people to the R?
> 
> These are nice cameras but missing 24p is going to drive some sales to other brands. It makes no sense to leave it out.


Yea, I'm not a video shooter, but I really don't get it either. I kind of wonder what sort of sensor architecture they needed to create to get 4K to run on their sensor with full width, and if it complicated to inclusion of more than one frame rate for max resolution. 

I really can't see this as protectionism against the cinema line - they're just so very different. No-one considering an M6II or 90D will ever consider cross shopping a cinema camera (obviously), so maybe it will be more telling in where Canon puts 24p back in at max resolution. That may tell us whether or not it is intended to move people up market (i.e. more expensive cameras get it) or whether it is some sort of weird technical limitation (i.e. no new cameras get it).


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Aug 28, 2019)

Why is it that the less you know about video, the more sure you are what video features other people do/don't need? The fact that you don't understand the difference between 24, 25 and 30 FPS doesn't mean there isn't a difference. I guarantee that Canon knows the difference and removing 24 FPS 4K from their low cost offerings is not just an oversight.


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## amorse (Aug 28, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> And 25, just a menu setting away. Seriously, you people got to have pretty professional needs if that’s not close enough to 24, and in that case you should probably acquire a professional camera.


I'm not sure it is about being close and getting a similar look: 25p may flicker in North American lighting without the right shutter speed. 24/30/60 shouldn't flicker under north American lighting at any shutter speed, 25/50 shouldn't flicker at any shutter speed under European lighting. I'm no video pro, but that's what I've understood is the reason people care about the distinction between 24 and 25.


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## Woody (Aug 28, 2019)

I may consider the M6 MarkII if the sensor is a big improvement over the older APS-C 24MP generation


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## CarlMillerPhoto (Aug 28, 2019)

Solid no buy for anybody serious about video without 23.976fps. Canon is out of their mind.


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## unfocused (Aug 28, 2019)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> Solid no buy for anybody serious about video without 23.976fps. Canon is out of their mind.


Crazy like a fox.


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## unfocused (Aug 28, 2019)

AprilForever said:


> The rumors were saying for a while that Canon was merging the 7d and XXd lines; Canon does not seem to indicate this in what I saw. Has anyone seen anything else?


Nothing official that I've seen in their release or videos. But, companies rarely announce they are dropping a particular line. However, when Canon merged the 1D lines, they did announce that, but in that case they were creating something new (1Dx). Personally, I think they may be hedging their bets a bit, just in case they decide to revive it at some point, or if the rumors of an APS-C "R' camera are accurate they might pair that with an announcement about the 7D line. 

I noticed that in the Rudy Winston video he emphasized that this is a step-up camera for advanced amateurs or upgrade for 80D users. Again, kind of hedging.


----------



## preppyak (Aug 28, 2019)

SlydeR said:


> Screenshot from Official spec sheet on Canon website...I've attached the pdf


That spec sheet also seems incomplete, as it doesnt list 1080/24 video recording size later on the page. Seems like a weird oversight.

In any case, leaving out 4k24 is just nonsense. If you can do 4k30, you can do 4k24. Magic Lantern showed that software side, any frame rate is easily doable as long as the buffer can handle it. To leave it out is really quite laughable when competitors have been doing it for 5 years. And when their DSLR competitor Nikon has it in both of their equivalent models.


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## koenkooi (Aug 28, 2019)

preppyak said:


> [..] Magic Lantern showed that software side, any frame rate is easily doable as long as the buffer can handle it.[..]


Magic Lantern also showed that the frame rates you can get depend heavily on the timers and dividers on the chip. While I don't think that's the reason for dropping 24p, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.


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## amorse (Aug 28, 2019)

unfocused said:


> Nothing official that I've seen in their release or videos. But, companies rarely announce they are dropping a particular line. However, when Canon merged the 1D lines, they did announce that, but in that case they were creating something new (1Dx). Personally, I think they may be hedging their bets a bit, just in case they decide to revive it at some point, or if the rumors of an APS-C "R' camera are accurate they might pair that with an announcement about the 7D line.
> 
> I noticed that in the Rudy Winston video he emphasized that this is a step-up camera for advanced amateurs or upgrade for 80D users. Again, kind of hedging.


I agree that most companies would be remiss to say "we're not going to continue x line into the future" without a suitable replacement, but they did suggest that the M6II will replace the M6 and the M5, at least in speaking to reviewers. No similar mention for 7D line to my knowledge.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 28, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> Magic Lantern also showed that the frame rates you can get depend heavily on the timers and dividers on the chip. While I don't think that's the reason for dropping 24p, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.


I saw a comment, I think it was from the DPReview preview, that any sensor that can sample at 30 can be modulated to sample at 24. The details are far beyond my comprehension so I wouldn't vouch for it 

But it seems to me Canon opening themselves up to this hurt and negative publicity from reviewers and influencers, who aren't going to use yore cameras anyway, regardless of how many actual purchasers are turned off by it, seems to point to a technical reason rather than a simple marketing reason. 

But I freely admit I don't hav a clue and unlike so many I don't care an iota.


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## RayValdez360 (Aug 28, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Well, assuming an R equivalent of 7D isn't coming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


24 is the standard filming mode framerate. i wouldnt assume anything. it's pretty disgusting of Canon to remove it. No other company out here is removing 24p.


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## RayValdez360 (Aug 28, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> How many people know the differenc between 24p and 30p?
> How many people can tell the difference between 24 p and 30p?
> How many people need 24P?
> How many people care?
> ...


You sound like someone that doesn't do video. Videographers want all the tools they can get to make their vision come alive. it is much harder or impossible for us to manipulate a video and get a certain look compared to editing photo. If all Canon cares about is saving pennies at the convenience of customers, they are out of touch. with them then. this definitely drives people to other brands for video.


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## amorse (Aug 28, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I saw a comment, I think it was from the DPReview preview, that any sensor that can sample at 30 can be modulated to sample at 24. The details are far beyond my comprehension so I wouldn't vouch for it
> 
> But it seems to me Canon opening themselves up to this hurt and negative publicity from reviewers and influencers, who aren't going to use yore cameras anyway, regardless of how many actual purchasers are turned off by it, seems to point to a technical reason rather than a simple marketing reason.
> 
> But I freely admit I don't hav a clue and unlike so many I don't care an iota.


I very much had the same reaction. I can't see why they'd open themselves to the inevitable criticism that will follow that decision, despite the fact that probably the bulk of users wouldn't know or care about the difference, unless it was necessary.

I really can't see it as a tool to move people up-market either (I mean, if someone is considering an APS-C camera, where do you expect them to go up market to gain that feature at 4K - a cinema camera?), which leaves technical limitation. Maybe the new sensor structure is creating that 4K in a way which isn't compatible with more than one frame rate or has to be built with the specific frame rate in mind? I have no idea. It doesn't affect me at all, but the only reason I pay attention to the issue is in not understanding the decision. Most of Canon's decisions have been obvious and reasonable (in my opinion anyway), but I really don't understand this one unless it is technical.


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## preppyak (Aug 28, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> Magic Lantern also showed that the frame rates you can get depend heavily on the timers and dividers on the chip. While I don't think that's the reason for dropping 24p, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.


Sure...but the SL3 shoots 4k24 with Digic8. As does the EOSR, RP, and M50. Its just such an odd line to draw; and made doubly odd by the fact that the RP shoots 4k24, but not FHD/24.

Id just love to know why. It cant be to protect their Cine lines, because the cost of a C200 makes it much easier to just move to Panasonic/Sony/etc entirely. But its also such a weird technical limitation to introduce and leave in.


amorse said:


> Most of Canon's decisions have been *obvious and reasonable* (in my opinion anyway), but I really don't understand this one unless it is technical.


This is where Im at too. I know Canon deliberately segments products...but dropping 1080/24 on the RP was a weird one. Not including 24 on these cameras doesnt really segment anything. Its just odd.


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## stevelee (Aug 28, 2019)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> Solid no buy for anybody serious about video without 23.976fps. Canon is out of their mind.


How does it affect it to convert to true 24p?


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## unfocused (Aug 28, 2019)

amorse said:


> ...but they did suggest that the M6II will replace the M6 and the M5, at least in speaking to reviewers...



I'm ignorant regarding the M line, but this surprises me more than the (presumed) elimination of the 7D. I would have thought that the model that did not have an integrated viewfinder would be the one to drop. But, then again, maybe the majority of people buying M bodies are cell phone upgraders who are used to composing and shooting pictures on a screen, while only old guys like me insist on a viewfinder.


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## amorse (Aug 28, 2019)

unfocused said:


> I'm ignorant regarding the M line, but this surprises me more than the (presumed) elimination of the 7D. I would have thought that the model that did not have an integrated viewfinder would be the one to drop. But, then again, maybe the majority of people buying M bodies are cell phone upgraders who are used to composing and shooting pictures on a screen, while only old guys like me insist on a viewfinder.


Yea, it's surprising to me too to be honest. With that said, I was always more interested in the 6 than the 5 just to make it smaller. I do most of my shooting using live view on a tripod, and adding an M6II as an ultralight balance between image quality and size/weight has some value to me. I think there is a niche there, but I would have thought there was a niche for the M5 too. Maybe the vision is that the M5 is replaced with an R mount APS-C equivalent for a 7D series - i.e. replacing both the M5 and 7Dii. That would make some sense in my mind with the headway they appear to be making on mirrorless focusing.


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## Shutterbug (Aug 28, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Why is it that the less you know about video, the more sure you are what video features other people do/don't need? The fact that you don't understand the difference between 24, 25 and 30 FPS doesn't mean there isn't a difference. I guarantee that Canon knows the difference and removing 24 FPS 4K from their low cost offerings is not just an oversight.


Preach!  "Oh 25 is so close to 24, just use that?" what are people saying.

ETA: Many still photographers still need video but we're not about to buy a C series camera for it. Many loyal fans will be pushed to other brands by none other but Canon themselves. Many local stringers are getting annoyed with the wait. The Nikon dudes are sort of happy(er). 4 switched to Sony, 1 to Fuji. We need dual card slots for work on the main camera (and no, no one is upgrading to the 1dx2 or 3 when it comes out). We need PC sync. We need 24 to work in groups when the video editor says we need to shoot in 24.


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## -pekr- (Aug 28, 2019)

What noone mentions is the new sensor. Is that actually a new generation, stacked, BSI sensor? Not that it matters, if it does what it does. But if it really is a new Canon sensor generation, I wonder, why they don't rave about it more?


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## Scenes (Aug 28, 2019)

stevelee said:


> How does it affect it to convert to true 24p?



It doesn’t really work like that unfortunately. They equivalent would be - it’s not 62 megapixels and me saying just blow it up to that? Sure, you can but it’s a kludgy work around and defeats the object of why you want that feature.


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## jvillain (Aug 28, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> And 25, just a menu setting away. Seriously, you people got to have pretty professional needs if that’s not close enough to 24, and in that case you should probably acquire a professional camera.


Maybe you should try doing a movie work flow then you would start to understand. 25 doesn't run on North American TVs so you have to convert to 24, what happens to the audio now that you are slowing the movie down? How about the picture quality? Going from 25 -> 24 means you ar clocking it out slower changing the lenght of the clip, every frame has to be intereted or you drop a frame causeing glitches. What if I go on a weekend trip with a friend and that person is shooting 24 and we want to use footage from both cameras? Now we have a new step in the work flow that takes effort, disk space and time to render. 24 is THE North Americn standard which the entire industry has consolidated around for close to 100 years, it makes co-operating with others so much easier.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 28, 2019)

CarlMillerPhoto said:


> Solid no buy for anybody serious about video without 23.976fps. Canon is out of their mind.


Prior cameras had it, this one doesn't (maybe, still seems to be some debate). Logically, it was a definitive decision made by Canon. It seems pretty unlikely that they made that decision because they're malicious, crazy, or stupid.

You might consider that while in your personal reality 23.976fps equates to being 'serious about video', the majority of camera buyers do not live in your personal reality.


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## Scenes (Aug 28, 2019)

Ordered a 90D body as soon as I woke up and saw the release. Great it’s the same 80D launch price of $1200 in the US but sadly here in the UK it’s jumped 21% from the 80D launch of £1000 to £1209. 

Watching hands on videos all afternoon one thing I keep seeing mentioned but not really dived into is the ‘better quality’ 4K video when cropped (pixel binning v over sampling?) and the electronic image stabilisation for movie shooting.


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## jvillain (Aug 28, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> In practice, you don't right now, as Adobe's DNG Converter almost certainly doesn't support 90D RAWs yet.


90D uses CR3 files for RAW the same as the EOS R. I have to use DNG converter in order to be able to use RAW files from the EOS R so files from the 90D should work after being passed through DNG converter assuming your photo editor supports DNG.. But it addds another anoying step to the work flow and in my case means I have to keep a windows VM spun up so I can use DNG converter. 

It took over a year for the open source world to reverse engineer the file format but they finally did it. All Canon did by not just publishing the spec for the file format was tick off a lot of their customers. But maybe Canon was hoping they would corner the market on graphics software and bring their balance sheet back up.


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## Scenes (Aug 28, 2019)

Do CS3 files work in adobe lightroom yet?


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 28, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> I guarantee that Canon knows the difference and removing 24 FPS 4K from their low cost offerings is not just an oversight.


Certainly. So why is it that people assume it's capricious, malicious, or just plain crazy? It's a business decision. People may not like it, but Canon would have considered that and decided to do it anyway.


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## hoodlum (Aug 28, 2019)

M5 series is now dead according to Jeff Keller at Dpreview.









Canon EOS M6 Mark II review: Our favorite Canon mirrorless camera yet


With the EOS M6 Mark II, Canon has taken its midrange mirrorless game up a notch. Offering the highest-res APS-C sensor on the market, 4K video, super-fast burst shooting and comfortable ergonomics, the M6 II is compact and a real pleasure to shoot with. Get all the details in our full review.




www.dpreview.com





"Canon told us that the M6 II replaces both the M5 and M6."


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## Joules (Aug 28, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Certainly. So why is it that people assume it's capricious, malicious, or just plain crazy? It's a business decision. People may not like it, but Canon would have considered that and decided to do it anyway.


Because Canon doesn't communicate any reason for it, maybe? If they leave it to the people to interpret what their actions mean, it should not come as a surprise that there is a wide variety of interpretations. After all, one has to make assumptions in the absence of communication from Canon to form an opinion. And those are based on the people's subjective impressions and experiences.

If something is taken for granted because it's been present ever since it first arrived, taking it away for no apparent reason, do you really find it hard to see why it can be upsetting?


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## Joules (Aug 28, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> What noone mentions is the new sensor. Is that actually a new generation, stacked, BSI sensor? Not that it matters, if it does what it does. But if it really is a new Canon sensor generation, I wonder, why they don't rave about it more?


I don’t know, this sounds pretty raving to me:

"A 32.5 megapixel APS-C CMOS sensor works hand-in-hand with our bespoke DIGIC 8 image processor to deliver fantastic image quality – clarity, tonality and colour are all abundant, while noise in low-light conditions is kept to an absolute minimum. Sensitivity extends up to ISO 25,600 for hand-held shooting in dark conditions, while a wide dynamic range allows detail to be retained in bright highlights and dark shadows."

From https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-90d/image-quality/

All the praise you could give to sensor relevant image quality. Is it normal for them to mention DR in their material?


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## slclick (Aug 28, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.


I don't believe the M5 is dead.Can you back this up?


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## slclick (Aug 28, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> If this is true, then it is a bit surprising. I was expecting some product differentiation, e.g. that M5 II is going to get an IBIS, thinking Canon was not ready with the feature in time, so that's a reason M5 II will get released later. But if there is not going to be any M5 II, we are going to live without an IBIS the whole one iteration, which means few years.


IBIS? I can live without it, it's superfluous. The (built in) EVF, now that is essential. Cameras have been doing just fine without stabilization for over 100 years, they haven't done very well without a viewfinder.


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## Randywayne (Aug 28, 2019)

The first images I've seen from both camera's look really really good, without having blown them up to 100% yet that is. I'm really leaning towards the M6 II with my only issue being that I don't "need" it. LOL I already have my mirrorless bases covereed with the a7III and my main work horse body is the 5D mark IV.


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## RayValdez360 (Aug 28, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Prior cameras had it, this one doesn't (maybe, still seems to be some debate). Logically, it was a definitive decision made by Canon. It seems pretty unlikely that they made that decision because they're malicious, crazy, or stupid.
> 
> You might consider that while in your personal reality 23.976fps equates to being 'serious about video', the majority of camera buyers do not live in your personal reality.





Joules said:


> I don’t know, this sounds pretty raving to me:
> 
> "A 32.5 megapixel APS-C CMOS sensor works hand-in-hand with our bespoke DIGIC 8 image processor to deliver fantastic image quality – clarity, tonality and colour are all abundant, while noise in low-light conditions is kept to an absolute minimum. Sensitivity extends up to ISO 25,600 for hand-held shooting in dark conditions, while a wide dynamic range allows detail to be retained in bright highlights and dark shadows."
> 
> ...


wow a company praising it's own product. we need an outside source. none of that is even close to scientific regarding the image quality and DR except the mention of megapixels


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 28, 2019)

RayValdez360 said:


> If all Canon cares about is saving pennies at the convenience of customers, they are out of touch. with them then. this definitely drives people to other brands for video.





Shutterbug said:


> Many loyal fans will be pushed to other brands by none other but Canon themselves. Many local stringers are getting annoyed with the wait. The Nikon dudes are sort of happy(er). 4 switched to Sony, 1 to Fuji. We need dual card slots for work on the main camera (and no, no one is upgrading to the 1dx2 or 3 when it comes out). We need PC sync. We need 24 to work in groups when the video editor says we need to shoot in 24.


Comments like this are common on these forums. People are switching brands. "We need [fill in the blank] or we will all switch to [fill in brand other than Canon, usually Sony]." The thing is, Canon has been omitting features for years, and there's no evidence that it's costing them net customers (in fact, the data suggest the opposite).

Some people simply refuse to let their opinions be influenced by facts.


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## Joules (Aug 28, 2019)

RayValdez360 said:


> wow a company praising it's own product. we need an outside source. none of that is even close to scientific regarding the image quality and DR except the mention of megapixels


No doubts about that, but these cameras were literally just announced hours ago. Somebody asked why Canon doesn't seem to hype up its IQ if there is a chance we're getting new sensor tech. And I just wanted to point out that they do hype it up. Would they do it if they didn't improve anything? Could be. It might take a while to find out though so this is the best we've got.


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## Tom W (Aug 28, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.



I have a feeling that 2 bodies are going to be coming down the pike, perhaps after the holidays or in the spring - the real replacement for the M5 and the real replacement for the 7D2. 

And what will those bodies bring? Same/similar sensor to these, but with some tweaks, improved AF, higher FPS, and 24 fps movie mode. Maybe even 50/60 at 4K? Who knows...

A few more tweaks here and there, such as a viewfinder built in on the 5, and a rugged body with very flexible AF system on the 7D3. And like the M6 II and 90D, the M5 II and 7D3 will be similar inside.

Just my opinion. What better time for a 7D replacement than preceding the summer olympics?


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## c.d.embrey (Aug 28, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> At least DPReview reports that they asked Canon about it and apparently the M62 is replacing both the M5 and the M6.



Hopefully this means that there is an EOS R 1.6-Crop-Camera coming soon. I've used EOS SLRs fro since the film-days—it's about time to get rid of the flippy-mirror and sucky-optical viewfinder.


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## dtaylor (Aug 28, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Logically, it was a definitive decision made by Canon. It seems pretty unlikely that they made that decision because they're malicious, crazy, or stupid.



There's also no guarantee it was a wise decision. I've been in enough business meetings to know that management can often have a blind spot to certain realities. On the face of it, it seems foolish as it's almost certainly a software driven feature.

Flip out screen + 24p would pretty much cement the 90D as *THE* vlogger/social media camera. This is because while Canon has lagged on 4k everyone else has lagged on ergonomics (flip out screen). A lot of vloggers have stuck with Canon despite being at 1080p because of the simple combination of DPAF+screen. Why not give them exactly what they want? 4k no crop DPAF @ 24p with flippy screen.

The only other thing they could ask for would be IBIS, but that's mitigated by IS glass and the increasing popularity of gimbals.


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## Kit. (Aug 28, 2019)

dtaylor said:


> Flip out screen + 24p would pretty much cement the 90D as *THE* vlogger/social media camera. This is because while Canon has lagged on 4k everyone else has lagged on ergonomics (flip out screen). A lot of vloggers have stuck with Canon despite being at 1080p because of the simple combination of DPAF+screen. Why not give them exactly what they want? 4k no crop DPAF @ 24p with flippy screen.


Why would vloggers want 24p? Just because someone on the Internet said that they should want it?

What the vast majority of vloggers actually needs is to select "PAL" in the menu if their country has 50Hz as utility frequency and "NTSC" if it's 60Hz.


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## dtaylor (Aug 28, 2019)

Randywayne said:


> The first images I've seen from both camera's look really really good, without having blown them up to 100% yet that is.



Looking at Canon's 80D and 90D portrait samples, along with JP's 90D portrait samples, I would say the bump in MP is worth it. There's a nice gain in sharpness, helping to offset the AA filter, as well as a bump in fine detail. It's impossible to fully judge without an identical scene shot under test conditions, but these shots are a good initial indicator.

I pulled up 6D2 and 5D4 sample files as well, and outside of low light/high ISO I think this 32.5mp sensor is going to compare favorably even with these FF bodies.

Naturally I also opened Canon's 5Ds portrait sample along with a couple of my own shots. I know that it doesn't matter for Instagram and likely would go unnoticed at common print sizes like 16x20, but...5Ds files feel like MFDB files. I don't own a Credo 80 but I have some Credo 80 portrait files on my drive and the 5Ds files feel like they belong next to the Credo 80 files.

It's astonishing how far digital IQ has come. Without question this APS-C sized 32.5mp sensor could be passed off as MF film back in, say, the late 1990s.


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## preppyak (Aug 28, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Why would vloggers want 24p? Just because someone on the Internet said that they should want it?


Because the difference in look between 24p and 30p is noticeable, and our eyes have largely been trained to see 24p as "film" or "professional" and 30p as "video". There's a lot more factors that go into it than that (lighting, lens choice, etc) of course...but leaving off an obvious feature with no obvious reason doesnt strike me as smart.

From a workflow perspective, losing 24p is kind of a big deal since it is standard. It'd be like Canon leaving off a major photo feature (think AI-Servo or dropping M exposure and only giving Tv and Av)...and then having people tell you you should buy a 1DX to use it if its so important to you. When literally every other competitor offers that mode at that price point.


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## dtaylor (Aug 28, 2019)

Kit. said:


> Why would vloggers want 24p? Just because someone on the Internet said that they should want it?



For the same reason that someone spends a small fortune on a f/1.2 lens or a MFDB. Or in the case of vloggers an expensive gimbal or microphone. Quality. They want the look. And while it's a subtle difference between 30p and 24p it is a noticeable difference.

So why not just give them what they want since it's a _firmware_ change? I don't think Canon deserves hell for "failing" to make the 90D a 7D3 on steroids, even though I understand the disappointment of 7D2 owners who don't expect an upgrade. But Canon does deserve hell for leaving out 24p.


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## TrubadorPhotography (Aug 28, 2019)

Only talking about me on this issue... but any video features in the 90D are just a bonus. So, the Full HD/4K without 24p is not a deal breaker.

I just looked at the 80D video specs from Canon's website, and what it has is: 1920 x 1080 (Full HD): 30 fps (29.97 fps) / 24 fps (23.98 fps).

The fact that there is no Full HD 1920x1080 at 24p on the 90D is a bit surprising giving that it was there in the 80D.

But, complaining that there's no 4K 24p is a completely different argument. The 80D doesn't even have 4K. And the 7Dii only offers 4K in 30p. IMHO, it appears that 4K 24p is being reserved for higher end (FF sensor) cameras.

I wonder, though, if at least the Full HD 1920 x 1080 at 24p can be an easy firmware update from Canon down the line. :shrug:


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## Sharlin (Aug 28, 2019)

I did a proper scientific experiment using RAWs published by various sources. Lightroom opens 90D CR3's without problems, which is nice.

Now, it is well-known that any properly prepared IQ test specimen should be underexposed at least five stops, and my sources have apparently failed in this task. All the photos I've found are more or less well-exposed. So we must settle for the next best thing and just pick a photo with shadows as deep as possible. After some deliberation I chose this one.

Consider first Specimen A, an unprocessed upper left corner crop of the aforementioned picture.


As is known, the next step is to open the file in Lightroom and push the shadows slider all the way to 100, resulting in Specimen B:


This is clearly not enough, so next we shall produce Specimen C by adjusting exposure by +2 EV:


We're still seeing too much detail, and banding or fixed pattern noise is inconveniently absent. Let's push another two EV for Specimen D:


At shadows +100, exposure +4 EV, what we have looks… interesting. Definitely should have underexposed more. Still, we might as well push exposure all the way to +5 EV while we're at it and end up with Specimen E:


Is this good? Or is this bad? I do not know, for I am not a Sony fanboy.


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## hoodlum (Aug 28, 2019)

slclick said:


> I don't believe the M5 is dead.Can you back this up?



I already provided a dpreview link on the previous page


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## stevelee (Aug 28, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Prior cameras had it, this one doesn't (maybe, still seems to be some debate). Logically, it was a definitive decision made by Canon. It seems pretty unlikely that they made that decision because they're malicious, crazy, or stupid.
> 
> You might consider that while in your personal reality 23.976fps equates to being 'serious about video', the majority of camera buyers do not live in your personal reality.


Is it 23.976fps only in NTSC mode? In PAL mode, do you get true 24p in that setting? I know the history of NTSC involved substituting color information in the spare time from speeding up the rate. NTSC black-and-white was a true 30i until the color system was adopted. Isn't 25p in PAL really 25p, and not 24.863942p or something?

I found the video interesting where the guy who posts 24p video on line actually shoots at 30p and converts in post. I'm stilly foggy on what it is that the 24p (or 23.976p) folks are aiming for. I was told in one thread that they were going for a cinematic effect, but didn't want it to look like movies. I never did puzzle that one out.


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## dtaylor (Aug 28, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Is this good? Or is this bad? I do not know, for I am not a Sony fanboy.



DPReview and DxO will find some way to claim that it's bad.


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 28, 2019)

Has anyone thought that maybe canon is looking ahead with their ommission of 24p. Perhaps they can see that in the not to distant future that no screens will be refreshing at the correct rate for 24p to run smoothly. To me it seems like it might be a bit like changing from imperial to metric. Imperial, while popular amongst those who are used to it is utterly ridiculous. Switching to a metric system is simply the way of the future because it makes sense. Of course I imagine the yanks will resist the most  .
Just tossing out ideas though as I am yet another one who couldn't give a rat's ass about video.


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## Shutterbug (Aug 28, 2019)

TrubadorPhotography said:


> ...
> But, complaining that there's no 4K 24p is a completely different argument. The 80D doesn't even have 4K. And the 7Dii only offers 4K in 30p. IMHO, it appears that 4K 24p is being reserved for higher end (FF sensor) cameras.



The 7DmkII doesn't have any kind of 4k mode. And the 5DmkIV have 4k at 24fps.


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## preppyak (Aug 28, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> Has anyone thought that *maybe canon is looking ahead* with their ommission of 24p. Perhaps they can see that in the not to distant future that no screens will be refreshing at the correct rate for 24p to run smoothly. To me it seems like it might be a bit like changing from imperial to metric. Imperial, while popular amongst those who are used to it is utterly ridiculous. Switching to a metric system is simply the way of the future because it makes sense. Of course I imagine the tanks will resist the most  .
> Just tossing out ideas though as I am yet another one who couldn't give a rat's ass about video.


Youtube put 4k into their player 5 years ago...Canon is only just now adding it to their prosumer cameras. Lets not pretend the Canon model is being really forward looking on video.

There's definitely a movement of people that want 60p as the standard frame rate...and a few film makers delivering in 48p or shooting in higher frame rates...in part driven by video gaming, etc. But a screen that refrehses at 60hz or 120hz will be able to handle 24p just fine.

No idea what the actual reason will end up being, but its certainly not to get ahead of the curve.


----------



## Mikehit (Aug 28, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I saw a comment, I think it was from the DPReview preview, that any sensor that can sample at 30 can be modulated to sample at 24. The details are far beyond my comprehension so I wouldn't vouch for it



There was a hack like this on youtube using the shutter angle command - not sure if Canon has such an option, though.


----------



## Mikehit (Aug 28, 2019)

RayValdez360 said:


> You sound like someone that doesn't do video. Videographers want all the tools they can get to make their vision come alive. it is much harder or impossible for us to manipulate a video and get a certain look compared to editing photo. If all Canon cares about is saving pennies at the convenience of customers, they are out of touch. with them then. this definitely drives people to other brands for video.



No, I don't use video much.
But I did see one demonstration of how you the differences 30p vs 25p vs 24p are absolutely minor. Yes, they have their uses but it seems most people complaining are doing so based more on principle than any practical issue (and many here seem to all into that side).


----------



## andrei1989 (Aug 28, 2019)

There are officially more M bodies than M lenses


----------



## preppyak (Aug 28, 2019)

TrubadorPhotography said:


> The fact that there is no Full HD 1920x1080 at 24p on the 90D is a bit surprising giving that it was there in the 80D.


 There is 1080/24 on the 90D. Canon has confirmed as much and its in the spec sheet



> But, complaining that there's no 4K 24p is a completely different argument. The 80D doesn't even have 4K. And the 7Dii only offers 4K in 30p. IMHO, it appears that 4K 24p is being reserved for higher end (FF sensor) cameras.


 This is like arguing that the 90D having 7fps shooting is fine, because its what the 80D had. The point of releasing a new camera is to incorporate features consumers want and to update key features with the newest abilities.

Also, 4k24 exists in the SL3 and M50, so its not just a FF sensor thing.


----------



## Mikehit (Aug 28, 2019)

preppyak said:


> Youtube put 4k into their player 5 years ago...Canon is only just now adding it to their prosumer cameras. Lets not pretend the Canon model is being really forward looking on video.



I recall on release of the 5D4, their market research showed that people using a DSLR for video do so in short bursts to supplement their stills and that people serious about video buy a video camera. 
Now it seems to me that Canon are pretty smart on their market research so maybe they know more than the forum-dwelling Peter Jackson/Stalney Kubrik wannabes.



preppyak said:


> There's definitely a movement of people that want 60p as the standard frame rate...and a few film makers delivering in 48p or shooting in higher frame rates...in part driven by video gaming, etc. But a screen that refrehses at 60hz or 120hz will be able to handle 24p just fine.



Yep, after Peter Jackson shot The Hobbit at 48p, 24p will be so passe in 2020.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Aug 28, 2019)

preppyak said:


> Youtube put 4k into their player 5 years ago...Canon is only just now adding it to their prosumer cameras. Lets not pretend the Canon model is being really forward looking on video.
> 
> There's definitely a movement of people that want 60p as the standard frame rate...and a few film makers delivering in 48p or shooting in higher frame rates...in part driven by video gaming, etc. But a screen that refrehses at 60hz or 120hz will be able to handle 24p just fine.
> 
> No idea what the actual reason will end up being, but its certainly not to get ahead of the curve.


Time will tell but my argument has the most logic(maybe). Perhaps not the canon getting ahead of the curve bit, but certainly the illogical 'imperial' rate of 24p. Metric is the way of the future.


----------



## slclick (Aug 28, 2019)

Sucky optical viewfinder. Wow. Just wow. I really want to know (maybe not) what it's like in some people's heads.


----------



## Aussie shooter (Aug 28, 2019)

slclick said:


> Sucky optical viewfinder. Wow. Just wow. I really want to know (maybe not) what it's like in some people's heads.


No headache. I haven't tried the a7r4 or Panasonic yet but those two aside I still have not looked through an evf for more than 60seconds without it feeling awful-physically


----------



## Kit. (Aug 28, 2019)

preppyak said:


> Because the difference in look between 24p and 30p is noticeable, and our eyes have largely been trained to see 24p as "film" or "professional" and 30p as "video".


People are smarter than that. People are smart enough to recognize talk shows just by their content. No amount of choppy panning will turn a vlogger's talking head into a movie hero.

Especially when watched on a tiny screen (or in a tiny Youtube window) on a 60fps display.

Who are they trying to fool? Themselves?



preppyak said:


> From a workflow perspective, losing 24p is kind of a big deal since it is standard.


For vlogging?



preppyak said:


> It'd be like Canon leaving off a major photo feature (think AI-Servo or dropping M exposure and only giving Tv and Av)...and then having people tell you you should buy a 1DX to use it if its so important to you.


I have no problem with Canon dropping M exposure mode on their consumer camcorders (if they even have that in the first place). Dropping this mode on a _photo_ camera would be unwise.



dtaylor said:


> For the same reason that someone spends a small fortune on a f/1.2 lens or a MFDB. Or in the case of vloggers an expensive gimbal or microphone. Quality. They want the look. And while it's a subtle difference between 30p and 24p it is a noticeable difference.
> 
> So why not just give them what they want since it's a _firmware_ change?


For separate money, maybe.

Canon does not sell a f/1.2 as a kit lens. Mainly because it costs a small fortune, but also because for most buyers of kits, using such a lens is a recipe for disaster.


----------



## slclick (Aug 28, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> No headache. I haven't tried the a7r4 or Panasonic yet but those two aside I still have not looked through an evf for more than 60seconds without it feeling awful-physically


Sorry if that was a confusing link (non link) some nitwit made a comment about Canons sucky optical VF.


----------



## slclick (Aug 28, 2019)

hoodlum said:


> I already provided a dpreview link on the previous page


I didn't see that quote nor do I think the caption on the link meant it was a replacement but when you add the EVF optional accessory it CAN replace the M5. You're reading into things and spreading a rumor.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 29, 2019)

Joules said:


> Because Canon doesn't communicate any reason for it, maybe? If they leave it to the people to interpret what their actions mean, it should not come as a surprise that there is a wide variety of interpretations. After all, one has to make assumptions in the absence of communication from Canon to form an opinion. And those are based on the people's subjective impressions and experiences.


Canon ILCs before the EOS R have an interval timer (7DII, 5DIV, 5Ds). The R doesn’t have it, the RP does. Should Canon communicate a reason for that? Why? Many Canon cameras, including powershots, had in camera HDR prior to the release of the 1DX, which does not offer that feature. Should Canon offer an explanation for that? Why? 

It comes as no surprise that people offer a variety of interpretations for these decisions. What surprises me is that people seem to think their interpretations actually matter. They don’t. 



Joules said:


> If something is taken for granted because it's been present ever since it first arrived, taking it away for no apparent reason, do you really find it hard to see why it can be upsetting?


It’s not hard to see why people are upset. People get upset about things all the time. It’s raining. The person driving in front of me is going slow and I’m in a hurry. I’m late for class because a cow is giving birth on the bike path (you may laugh, but that actually happened to me in grad school). 

So yes, people are upset. So what? “So they don’t buy Canon,” you say. Fine. But if you’ve been on this forum for a while, you’ve seen that people have been upset with Canon for years. They (according to them) stopped buying Canon. Meanwhile, Canon gained market share (slightly, but the point is they didn’t lose it). Which brings us back to, people are upset...so what?


----------



## hoodlum (Aug 29, 2019)

slclick said:


> I didn't see that quote nor do I think the caption on the link meant it was a replacement but when you add the EVF optional accessory it CAN replace the M5. You're reading into things and spreading a rumor.



The quote was placed right in the comments by the editor at Dpreview. The link I provided brought you directly to the quote in question.


----------



## SecureGSM (Aug 29, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> No headache. I haven't tried the a7r4 or Panasonic yet but those two aside I still have not looked through an evf for more than 60seconds without it feeling awful-physically


This. Sony evf gives me a massive headache. My astigmatism perhaps. I donno.


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 29, 2019)

Canon know me so well. I had my mind set on the M5 MkII but its looking less and less like that will ever materialize, however the M6 MkII kit for $1099 includes the 'optional' viewfinder and I'm thinking maybe the ability to make the camera smaller is more of a benefit than being able to use the viewfinder and a flash at the same time, personally I rarely use flash with the M5 now but was thinking if the MkII could do the full Ai bit in the 470EX Ai it would make a fantastic event combination.

Ah decisions decisions...


----------



## Randywayne (Aug 29, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> Yep, after Peter Jackson shot The Hobbit at 48p, 24p will be so passe in 2020.



I don't recall a whole lot of people actually being happy with Peter Jackson choosing to shoot The Hobbit movies at 48p. In fact if you saw any of them in a theater that supported that format it looked like you were watching an early 80's episode of Doctor Who on the BBC.


----------



## Ozarker (Aug 29, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canon ILCs before the EOS R have an interval timer (7DII, 5DIV, 5Ds). The R doesn’t have it, the RP does. Should Canon communicate a reason for that? Why? Many Canon cameras, including powershots, had in camera HDR prior to the release of the 1DX, which does not offer that feature. Should Canon offer an explanation for that? Why?
> 
> It comes as no surprise that people offer a variety of interpretations for these decisions. What surprises me is that people seem to think their interpretations actually matter. They don’t.
> 
> ...


Come on. We all know the dog ate your homework.


----------



## Ozarker (Aug 29, 2019)

stevelee said:


> How does it affect it to convert to true 24p?


That 0.024 fps difference makes a huuuuge difference.


----------



## Ozarker (Aug 29, 2019)

I'm wondering what the heck is up at Canon HQ. I'm studying for my Brazilian wax/sugaring classes and really need 240fps so that the V-loggers can produce acceptable tutorial content. Also, 8k. The wife has gone to bed. Time to hit the books YouTube.


----------



## Tangent (Aug 29, 2019)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.



My take on this: The M6 mkII replaces both _for now_. It seemed odd when the first two came out that the only differentiator was the EVF. I think it makes sense to widen that gap. So I think the M5 mkII will come next year, hopefully with a real step up, new sensor tech, flip-out LCD monitor, headphone jack, very slightly bigger form factor, better EVF than the add-on -- and maybe even 24p and an intervalometer? Just speculatin'


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 29, 2019)

Tangent said:


> My take on this: The M6 mkII replaces both _for now_. It seemed odd when the first two came out that the only differentiator was the EVF. I think it makes sense to widen that gap. So I think the M5 mkII will come next year, hopefully with a real step up, new sensor tech, flip-out LCD monitor, headphone jack, very slightly bigger form factor, better EVF than the add-on -- and maybe even 24p and an intervalometer? Just speculatin'


Or maybe M5 / M6 was an experiment – let the market decide which was preferred. Develop only that line going forward.


----------



## Don Haines (Aug 29, 2019)

I have been telling myself for a long time that once an M series camera got to the point where it had all the features that I wanted, that I would get one.

This looks like the time to jump in.


----------



## OneSnark (Aug 29, 2019)

Aussie shooter said:


> I am very keen to hear reports about the Image quality when they come out



Nothing is amusing me more than the forums over at a certain famous website that specializes in digital-photography reviews.

In a 90D post, the posters over there are gleefully picking apart a series of 90D sample images that were posted online.
In a M6 review article, the editors were praising the image quality of the M6 samples.

*How much different can these images really be*

Time will tell if the 90D/M6 is truly worthy successors to the current cameras. 
Honestly, I don't think we will know the truth for awhile. All the current comments are either uninformed, hopelessly biased, or both.
I can wait. . . .I won't even be able to get software to process the RAW images from the new cameras for a bit. That's a more pressing problem.

- - - Frankly looking for an 80D "upgrade", so I don't care if it lacks 7DII features.
- - - Most interested in DR improvement. Don't need improved resolution.
- - - I would like improved AF, but frankly not super critical for me. AF through the mirror box is great in my mind. The dual-pixel AF on the current cameras does, however, need much improvement. Too slow.

- - - The M6 doesn't interest me, because I personally am not excited about buying a whole new collection of mediocre lenses.

I'm good with the prices being discussed. If the quality is there.


----------



## TrubadorPhotography (Aug 29, 2019)

Shutterbug said:


> The 7DmkII doesn't have any kind of 4k mode. And the 5DmkIV have 4k at 24fps.


I stand corrected on that. Saw the 24p but wasn’t for 4K. Which does back up my point about 4K 24p is really best suited for FF cameras. True, it’s available on the SL3 and M50. But I think Canon is deciding that it’s best to reserve high quality 4K for high-end or video-centric cameras.


----------



## TrubadorPhotography (Aug 29, 2019)

preppyak said:


> There is 1080/24 on the 90D. Canon has confirmed as much and its in the spec sheet.






I see no 1080 24p on Canon’s website for the 90D.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 29, 2019)

OneSnark said:


> Nothing is amusing me more than the forums over at a certain famous website that specializes in digital-photography reviews.
> 
> In a 90D post, the posters over there are gleefully picking apart a series of 90D sample images that were posted online.



Are they picking apart DPReview's sample images? Because those images are mush. Not sure why or what happened in the processing chain.

JP was at the same event shooting the same models and his DNG files look great.


----------



## TPatS (Aug 29, 2019)

TrubadorPhotography said:


> I see no 1080 24p on Canon’s website for the 90D.


It was on the downloadable specs sheet but they must have made a mistake as they updated it today to remove all mention of ALL-I and 24p.


----------



## Quirkz (Aug 29, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Or maybe M5 / M6 was an experiment – let the market decide which was preferred. Develop only that line going forward.



That was my thinking. And now with the wording of the marketing materials, and the simultaneous release of the 90D and m6 II, i cant help but wondering if this the same test.


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 29, 2019)

Durf said:


> Prepared for dozens upon dozens of YouTube videos and forum posts complaining about these 2 camera's.


Here you go, it doesn't take long when Sony-king of horrible ergonomics releases new cameras on same day as Canon.


----------



## Mr Majestyk (Aug 29, 2019)

Terrible news about this replacing M5 if true. Ad-on EVF is not that great, I would have hoped the M5 II would bring several improvements including a much better integrated EVF, higher res rear screen, bigger grip, 4K24p and few other improvements.


----------



## Chaitanya (Aug 29, 2019)

amorse said:


> I'm not sure it is about being close and getting a similar look: 25p may flicker in North American lighting without the right shutter speed. 24/30/60 shouldn't flicker under north American lighting at any shutter speed, 25/50 shouldn't flicker at any shutter speed under European lighting. I'm no video pro, but that's what I've understood is the reason people care about the distinction between 24 and 25.


Its not just Europe but also all the countries using PAL. In India as well for me videos shot indoors at 30fps flickr.


----------



## dtaylor (Aug 29, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Here you go, it doesn't take long when Sony-king of horrible ergonomics releases new cameras on same day as Canon.



I actually watched part of this video until I couldn't handle it any more. Pure narrative. _Canon and Nikon were barely innovating and then along came Sony to save us! _Yeah Tony, let's just ignore:
* The first digital SLRs.
* First FF sensors.
* Year over year progress in resolution and high ISO.
* Year over year progress in lens designs and features.
* Constant tweaking and improvement in ergonomics and AF.
* First hybrid still/video cameras.

Nope, nothing changed in the 2000's. Why a camera from 2002 was virtually identical to one in 2010. I mean really the 90D is practically the same as the D30. Sony innovation is best innovation, and *CANON. IS. *******.*


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 29, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> I recall on release of the 5D4, their market research showed that people using a DSLR for video do so in short bursts to supplement their stills and that people serious about video buy a video camera.
> Now it seems to me that Canon are pretty smart on their market research so maybe they know more than the forum-dwelling Peter Jackson/Stalney Kubrik wannabes.
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, he did. But back at those days, I have also read some articles, about how it was perceived and that they had to apply some tricks to make it look more natural to the eye of an occassional viewer?


----------



## Tremotino (Aug 29, 2019)

OneSnark said:


> Nothing is amusing me more than the forums over at a certain famous website that specializes in digital-photography reviews.
> 
> In a 90D post, the posters over there are gleefully picking apart a series of 90D sample images that were posted online.
> In a M6 review article, the editors were praising the image quality of the M6 samples.
> ...


the AF on the eos R ist the fastest AF ever made by canon. Have you never got a try?


----------



## LDS (Aug 29, 2019)

Don Haines said:


> Canon may not be *******, but my bank account is



Actually, Canon is instead saving me a lot of money. My sister didn't like the new G5X so I won't get her one as present next Xmas, while without a M5II I won't invest in a M system as I planned.


----------



## SteveCheetham (Aug 29, 2019)

Tangent said:


> My take on this: The M6 mkII replaces both _for now_. It seemed odd when the first two came out that the only differentiator was the EVF. I think it makes sense to widen that gap. So I think the M5 mkII will come next year, hopefully with a real step up, new sensor tech, flip-out LCD monitor, headphone jack, very slightly bigger form factor, better EVF than the add-on -- and maybe even 24p and an intervalometer? Just speculatin'


I'm hopeful this is the case, and not read too much into a comment from 'someone at Canon' and it be taken as gospel that there won't ever be an M5 mkII. Does anyone have sales figures for M5 vs M6 - would be interesting to see the split? I seem to remember reading a rumour that the M5ii and M6ii were being developed simultaneously but the M5ii wasn't going to be ready in time. If it does appear, I can't see it being that different to the M6, but with the 3.69 million dot EVF from the EOSR shoehorned in.


----------



## amorse (Aug 29, 2019)

Chaitanya said:


> Its not just Europe but also all the countries using PAL. In India as well for me videos shot indoors at 30fps flickr.


Agreed. Over generalization by me to be fair. Anyone searching the difference between NTSC and PAL should be able to find the difference.


----------



## OneSnark (Aug 29, 2019)

Tremotino said:


> the AF on the eos R ist the fastest AF ever made by canon. Have you never got a try?



So - The EOS R has a 60% price premium over a 90D, right? That’s assuming I mount my existing EF glass, and don’t start buying $2000+ replacement glass. ( -and you KNOW you want to buy more glass for the new mount)

Is the R dual pixel AF superior to the “viewfinder” AF of the 90d? 

Because that’s what I will compare it to. 

I know the whole point of the R is to lose the mirror and viewfinder (actually: I think the point is to encourage me to replace all my lenses); but if spending $ compromises my ability to take pictures -> not interested. 

No – I have not actually physically tried one of the new mirrorless SLRs. Takes a fair bit of effort to do that where I live. Considering the cost implications, I am not motivated to go the effort. 

I see the highly biased reviews touting the FF image quality but not viewfinder caliber AF; therefore I presume it’s not there yet.

I may be wrong. I would welcome correction if I am.


----------



## LDS (Aug 29, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Or maybe M5 / M6 was an experiment – let the market decide which was preferred. Develop only that line going forward.



I did some checks on Amazon, and the M5 sells better than the M6, at least in Western countries, don't know about Asia, and both are outsold by the M50 which has a built-in viewfinder. Sure, Amazon is not the overall market but should give a rough idea anyway.

Will the M50 lose the built-in viewfinder as well? Could Canon at least make an add-on viewfinder that integrates better with the camera body, not the actual design which I'm afraid will get into anything if you try to put the camera away in bag or pocket? And maybe with a flash shoe on top of it, or on the left side?


----------



## slclick (Aug 29, 2019)

hoodlum said:


> The quote was placed right in the comments by the editor at Dpreview. The link I provided brought you directly to the quote in question.


Oh in the comments...still don't believe it and Bryan at TDP is saying Canon tells him the M5 is still the top dog. I know who I chose to believe.


----------



## LDS (Aug 29, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> Yep, after Peter Jackson shot The Hobbit at 48p, 24p will be so passe in 2020.



And his decision backfired. A lot of people didn't like the image "look" at 48fps. There's a reason also why Canon delivered its Sumire Prime lenses.

Human eye is the same it was in 1920 and probably will be the same in 2120. Evolution needs some more time to change things.

He also multiplied a short book in three whole movies, but that's another story... even if it's still an evidence about trying to aim to the wrong result just because you think you can.


----------



## StoicalEtcher (Aug 29, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> But I freely admit I don't have a clue and unlike so many I don't care an iota.


Sorry PBD, I think you may have mistyped your comment - I've made a suggested amendment...


----------



## slclick (Aug 29, 2019)

hoodlum said:


> The quote was placed right in the comments by the editor at Dpreview. The link I provided brought you directly to the quote in question.


You are taking that out of context. Sure it replaces the M5 but it will not supersede the M5 Mk2.


----------



## slclick (Aug 29, 2019)

Mr Majestyk said:


> Terrible news about this replacing M5 if true. Ad-on EVF is not that great, I would have hoped the M5 II would bring several improvements including a much better integrated EVF, higher res rear screen, bigger grip, 4K24p and few other improvements.


No, it won't. It's currently at the top of the M line due to it's specs but will only be holding that place until the M5 Mkll comes along. Let's hear something official before we start believing conjecture from the likes of DPR writers and forumites.


----------



## stevelee (Aug 29, 2019)

LDS said:


> And his decision backfired. A lot of people didn't like the image "look" at 48fps. There's a reason also why Canon delivered its Sumire Prime lenses.
> 
> Human eye is the same it was in 1920 and probably will be the same in 2120. Evolution needs some more time to change things.
> 
> He also multiplied a short book in three whole movies, but that's another story... even if it's still an evidence about trying to aim to the wrong result just because you think you can.


Buffalo Bob used to show movies shot at 16fps, more or less, at 24fps, and kids watched them on 30i screens. The howls of the Peanut Gallery added to the effect.

What percentage of folks who objected to 48fps would have reacted that way if no one had told them it was shot at 48fps? Was it a true 48fps, or some NTSC-like approximation?

I’ve never seen a 24fps movie projected without repeated frames. That was abandoned so rapidly, it must have looked really bad. I guess I see Blu-Ray movies at 24fps on my 120/sec. refresh rate TV screen.

I guess we will have 8K TVs before the human eye has evolved to resolve a 4K picture viewed from ten feet on a screen of a reasonable size.


----------



## stevelee (Aug 29, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> That 0.024 fps difference makes a huuuuge difference.


Obviously it is the difference between looking like video and looking like a movie.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Aug 29, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Certainly. So why is it that people assume it's capricious, malicious, or just plain crazy? It's a business decision. People may not like it, but Canon would have considered that and decided to do it anyway.


That's fine. Lets just stop pretending that Canon doesn't intentionally reduce the functionality of it's lower cost products. That's their choice and hopefully the market will respond accordingly.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 29, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Lets just stop pretending that Canon doesn't intentionally reduce the functionality of it's lower cost products.


Who is claiming that's not the case?


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 29, 2019)

I does seem already, that DPR is spreading not so accurate info. Maybe it was just uninformed remark of some US Canon representative, who knows, but .e.g. Canon UK comments it a bit differently. That might easily mean, that there is going to be an M5 II (or even the 7D III), unless we hear it clearly stated by Canon otherwise ....


----------



## Joules (Aug 29, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> I does seem already, that DPR is spreading not so accurate info. Maybe it was just uninformed remark of some US Canon representative, who knows, but .e.g. Canon UK comments it a bit differently. That might easily mean, that there is going to be an M5 II (or even the 7D III), unless we hear it clearly stated by Canon otherwise ....
> 
> View attachment 186247


They didn't answer the question though. I think nobody was wondering if the M5 was still for sale now that the M6 II is out.

The question was if we could expect a M5 II and it wasn't answered.


----------



## -pekr- (Aug 29, 2019)

Joules said:


> They didn't answer the question though. I think nobody was wondering if the M5 was still for sale now that the M6 II is out.
> 
> The question was if we could expect a M5 II and it wasn't answered.



Neither it was denied. If such info would be publicly available, it would be stated so. Other than that - companies mostly don't communicate future products ahead, unless they are ready to (pre)announce.


----------



## Sharlin (Aug 29, 2019)

Joules said:


> They didn't answer the question though. I think nobody was wondering if the M5 was still for sale now that the M6 II is out.
> 
> The question was if we could expect a M5 II and it wasn't answered.



Of course they did not answer the question. This site wouldn't exist if they answered questions like that on Twitter.


----------



## canonnews (Aug 29, 2019)

Joules said:


> They didn't answer the question though. I think nobody was wondering if the M5 was still for sale now that the M6 II is out.
> 
> The question was if we could expect a M5 II and it wasn't answered.


Canon would NEVER answer that question.
however no one other than dpreview is stating that the M6 II is a M5 replacement.


----------



## Graphic.Artifacts (Aug 29, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Who is claiming that's not the case?


Seriously? Isn't there another thread on this site attempting to shift the lack of 24 P to some obscure licensing rule? 

Personally, I don't have an issue with Canon leaving high end features & benefits off low-mid priced cameras. I do have a concern when I think they are intentionally compromising the quality of the output rather than simply allowing a less efficient workflow to get through. 

IMO, inefficient workflows are fair game for consumer cameras, intentionally restricting the inherent output quality is not. Removing 24P, on the basis of product segmentation rather than technical feasibility or cost, crosses that line IMO. 

As it stands, I doubt it would have much effect on sales one way or the other but as a marketing decision it seems an ill-advised way to bring down a lot of bad press and re-inforces the worst impressions of Canon. Bad call in my opinion.


----------



## Ozarker (Aug 29, 2019)

stevelee said:


> Obviously it is the difference between looking like video and looking like a movie.


I meant 24p vs 23.976p on the Canon, but I got that wrong also.


----------



## Ozarker (Aug 29, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> As it stands, I doubt it would have much effect on sales one way or the other...


Isn't this the whole point? Or lack of one? I've watched 1,000s of YouTube videos over the years. Never cared what they were shot in as long as the information I wanted was there. Let's be real, no serious movie would be made with one of these anyway. I'll bet most people don't care how the movie they are watching was shot, as long as it is a good movie plot and well acted. Case in point: CGI. And I am only talking about the CGI parts. Also, "both Oklahoma! (1955) and Around The World In Eighty Days (1956), big brash 70mm numbers, were shot and projected at 30 fps." More recently, there has been some IMAX and theme park work in 48fps.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 29, 2019)

I think the most positive thing to take from the unbelievable wailing, keyboard pounding and general dismay and despair about the lack of 24p is that not one person who has used the camera has said anything like _'DR still lags behind the competition_', I take this to mean the DR question has been put to bed and the unsated critical page and viewer hit searchers have found their next meme.

It's all bullsh!t, if you are making the next Sundance sleeper hit with no budget you are borrowing somebody else's camera anyway.


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## Ozarker (Aug 29, 2019)

jonbenz said:


> 1199$ for a camera that don't do 24fps 1080p video? what is this? 2008? hahaha!
> 
> 
> When all its predecessors has it (70D, 80D, 77d, even the rebels) There is no excuse but to wanted crippling the camera.
> ...


Haven't you heard? Nobody uses 1080p anymore. 4k is the only thing people care about.  This is 2019. 1080 is obsolete.


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## Aussie shooter (Aug 29, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Seriously? Isn't there another thread on this site attempting to shift the lack of 24 P to some obscure licensing rule?
> 
> Personally, I don't have an issue with Canon leaving high end features & benefits off low-mid priced cameras. I do have a concern when I think they are intentionally compromising the quality of the output rather than simply allowing a less efficient workflow to get through.
> 
> ...


But that thread clearly states that the 'licencing issue' is a matter of cost as they have to pay for it and therefore that may be the reason they are leaving it off the lower priced models.


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## Mikehit (Aug 29, 2019)

neuroanatomist said:


> Who is claiming that's not the case?


Let's not pretend Canon is the only one who does. In fact....who doesn't? It is why they are 'lower end' cameras, after all


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## OneSnark (Aug 30, 2019)

privatebydesign said:


> I think the most positive thing to take from the unbelievable wailing, keyboard pounding and general dismay and despair about the lack of 24p is that not one person who has used the camera has said anything like _'DR still lags behind the competition_', I take this to mean the DR question has been put to bed and the unsated critical page and viewer hit searchers have found their next meme.
> 
> It's all bullsh!t, if you are making the next Sundance sleeper hit with no budget you are borrowing somebody else's camera anyway.



Maybe - just maybe - nobody is talking about DR because nobody has had any *real* opportunity to use the camera?
Nobody has actually had time to study DR performance of the new Canon cameras, because everyone has only had the same 3 hour window in Atlanta to study the cameras.

I have been looking at the various reviews. . . not just for the M6 and 90D; but also the new crop of 1" P&S's.
OMG - - - > So much heat. So little light. These "reviews" are all blatantly heavily biased, and focused on the wrong things.

The canons lack 24p. Disney Studios should look elsewhere for a camera. Got it.

It's almost worse with the 1" cameras. Oh my word - - -> everyone clearly declaring the Sony RX100 VII the "clear winner" over the Canon G5-II. Barely glossing over the fact that the Sony is a full THIRD more expensive than the G5-II. . . .I mean the Sony is not even in the same *price category* as the Canon.

So for me. . .the hype is backfiring.
Since I can't find any real information. . .I assume they are hiding something. I can't be bothered to find out what. . .moving on.


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## OneSnark (Aug 30, 2019)

So - - - being "that" guy; I decided to glance at the manuals for the new APS-C cameras and compare to the manuals I already have. . . .oh - - - fancy that - - -> Manuals are not available yet.


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## privatebydesign (Aug 30, 2019)

OneSnark said:


> So for me. . .the hype is backfiring.


This.


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## Durf (Aug 30, 2019)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Isn't this the whole point? Or lack of one? I've watched 1,000s of YouTube videos over the years. Never cared what they were shot in as long as the information I wanted was there. Let's be real, no serious movie would be made with one of these anyway. I'll bet most people don't care how the movie they are watching was shot, as long as it is a good movie plot and well acted. Case in point: CGI. And I am only talking about the CGI parts. Also, "both Oklahoma! (1955) and Around The World In Eighty Days (1956), big brash 70mm numbers, were shot and projected at 30 fps." More recently, there has been some IMAX and theme park work in 48fps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes I do tend to LOL when I see a YouTube video or read a forum post when someone's world is coming to an end when a camera is released that doesn't shoot 23.976p, but does shoot 25p. 
Most youtube videos are basically a person in front of a camera talking and it really doesn't matter if its 24 or 30p.....a youtube vlog or basic review or tutorial is not a Hollywood theater production made to be seen on the big screen hoping for an oscar! LOL. Even some of the best youtube videos are watched on a phone and the person watching it most likely can not tell if its 24 or 30p.
Then again, if there wasn't something to always complain about then everything would be perfect and boring....


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## dcm (Aug 30, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> That's fine. Lets just stop pretending that Canon doesn't intentionally reduce the functionality of it's lower cost products. That's their choice and hopefully the market will respond accordingly.



Or is it that Canon doesn't add a bunch of extra features to their low cost cameras? 

Your argument might have a leg to stand on if all they did was reduce the functionality of a product. I did product development in hi tech for 40 years. Products aren't typically built by taking your highest end product and reducing the feature set to get under some cost. They are built by starting with a baseline and building up till you reach a shippable product within a particular budget. Often the budget doesn't change from release to release, but the priority of the things you add to the baseline does change. Maybe they decided some of the newer features merited inclusion versus those no longer present. There are typically power, memory, and testing constraints which prevent you from keeping everything that was ever in a prior product.


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## blackcoffee17 (Aug 30, 2019)

The M6 looks great. A small corner EVF would make it perfect to compose and review images in bright light.


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## -pekr- (Aug 30, 2019)

blackcoffee17 said:


> The M6 looks great. A small corner EVF would make it perfect to compose and review images in bright light.



Well, so I am not alone who would prefer pop-up viewfinder instead of flash?  Well, for the target audience though, the built-in flash migt still be preferable. I have created myself a hard to resolve equation - while I prefer M6 style (over M5), I would also occassionaly welcomed to trigger our Elinchrom hi-sync portable strobe (ELB 400), Direct sunlgiht might be a problem.

And then I found this and almost spitted my coffee on my monitor. Did not know it might even exist 




Well, some view-finder for such rare cases might still be an option though, but preventing touch&drag focusing otoh ....




... but it would most probably look even more weird, than accepting the M5 design I don't like, but would be practical for my purposes  ....


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 30, 2019)

-pekr- said:


> And then I found this and almost spitted my coffee on my monitor. Did not know it might even exist
> View attachment 186263


That's nice, but doubt it would work for the EVF. Check out the contacts on the Canon EVF and the M6 hotshoe. Somehow I doubt those are replicated on the splitter pictured above.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Aug 30, 2019)

Would it be OK if Canon dropped Av, odd numberred shutter speeds, ISO 800 or f8 from the M6II. From the perspective of a video orriented user that's what we're talking about. No other brands are dropping 24P at this price point. It's just a stupid way of annoying potential users of higher end gear that rely on 24P as their standard framrate.

Nobody is shooting a movie with a 90D or a M6II but they might want to use them as cheap supplemental cams and now they can't. Calling it anything else is just a smokescreen.

It's not that complicated.

edit: I like the M6II. I think it's a nice little camera which I'd happily recommend to stills orriented shooters and vodeo shoters who don't care about the framerate issue. I just seems like another pointless shot in the foot for Canon in a tough market. Why give their critics the ammunition. I think Canon needs to take a hard look at their decision making process. Time for a shake-Up IMO.


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## CvH (Aug 30, 2019)

I wondered if Canon build these 2 cameras primarily for videographers? It's odd that this thread only discuss the video features and no-one seems to care much about the improvements for still.....


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## stevelee (Aug 31, 2019)

Durf said:


> Yes I do tend to LOL when I see a YouTube video or read a forum post when someone's world is coming to an end when a camera is released that doesn't shoot 23.976p, but does shoot 25p.
> Most youtube videos are basically a person in front of a camera talking and it really doesn't matter if its 24 or 30p.....a youtube vlog or basic review or tutorial is not a Hollywood theater production made to be seen on the big screen hoping for an oscar! LOL. Even some of the best youtube videos are watched on a phone and the person watching it most likely can not tell if its 24 or 30p.
> Then again, if there wasn't something to always complain about then everything would be perfect and boring....


Plus by the time the video has been processed by YouTube, you’re not going to see a lot of subtleties.


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## Durf (Aug 31, 2019)

stevelee said:


> Plus by the time the video has been processed by YouTube, you’re not going to see a lot of subtleties.


 I think all the 4k stuff is highly over-rated. 1080p looks fine to me....


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## Canfan (Aug 31, 2019)

Canon should of just release one crop frame mirrorless ef-s mount camera with the features of the 90D, i think that would silence all the hate they're getting right now. 
Maybe including the EVF in a bundle in the M6 MKII?


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## Mikehit (Aug 31, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Nobody is shooting a movie with a 90D or a M6II but they might want to use them as cheap supplemental cams *and now they can't*.



Really....?


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## stevelee (Aug 31, 2019)

Durf said:


> I think all the 4k stuff is highly over-rated. 1080p looks fine to me....


Especially at the same bitrate.


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Aug 31, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> Really....?


Intellectually weak to take that statement out of it's context.


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## Mikehit (Aug 31, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Intellectually weak to take that statement out of it's context.



Not intellectually weak at all. As has been pointed out you can output to 24p. 
Was it lazy of yourself to make such a broad-sweeping statement?


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## Graphic.Artifacts (Aug 31, 2019)

Mikehit said:


> Not intellectually weak at all. As has been pointed out you can output to 24p.
> Was it lazy of yourself to make such a broad-sweeping statement?


Not interested. Find another leg to slobber on.......Feel free to quote that any way you like.


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## Tremotino (Sep 2, 2019)

OneSnark said:


> So - The EOS R has a 60% price premium over a 90D, right? That’s assuming I mount my existing EF glass, and don’t start buying $2000+ replacement glass. ( -and you KNOW you want to buy more glass for the new mount)
> 
> Is the R dual pixel AF superior to the “viewfinder” AF of the 90d?
> 
> ...



the eos R is full frame the 90d isn't. 
it doesn't make sens to compare eos R's AF and 90d AF. 
Neither have I tried the 90d, so I can't tell you the af performance comparted to eos R. I compared eos R and 5d mark iv side by side and in my holy opinion the eos R with rf 24-105 performed much better than the 5d mark iv with ef 24-70 2.8


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## OneSnark (Sep 5, 2019)

Tremotino said:


> the eos R is full frame the 90d isn't.
> it doesn't make sens to compare eos R's AF and 90d AF.
> Neither have I tried the 90d, so I can't tell you the af performance comparted to eos R. I compared eos R and 5d mark iv side by side and in my holy opinion the eos R with rf 24-105 performed much better than the 5d mark iv with ef 24-70 2.8



Well - - > yes. one is Full Frame; One is not.

The point I was making that it was not really clear to me how Autofocus in the mirrorless cameras compares to SLRs. 
I know how "live view" in the current 80D compares to the viewfinder on the 80D. . . .it's horrid. SURE, it can take a shot, but it just doesn't seem responsive. For action shots, I find I have to use the viewfinder.

So for me, a step up to an "R" (or even a step down to a "M") is discouraged because of the glass options. Not understanding AF performance makes it much harder to go in that direction. Image quality for Full Frame (in an "R") would be a known benefit (although, I do like the reach of the APS-C with a good piece of long glass).


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## Scenes (Sep 5, 2019)

In this videos comments this YouTuber said at the media event Canon told him the 4K is downsampled from 6K. That’s as close to an official word we have on the matter. However it turns out Canon is getting to 4K I thought it looked pretty darn good.


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## AlanF (Sep 12, 2019)

I'll be getting the 90D tomorrow about 2 pm. Timetable is first to AFMA with 100-400mm II and 400mm DO II. Then, compare resolution using charts with 5DSR and 5DIV. If time, check out any shutter shock. Maybe time to report back here. Saturday, local bird reserve with hopefully a few birds around as it is a lean time of year, and further reporting.


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## steven_diexplora (Sep 12, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I'll be getting the 90D tomorrow about 2 pm. Timetable is first to AFMA with 100-400mm II and 400mm DO II. Then, compare resolution using charts with 5DSR and 5DIV. If time, check out any shutter shock. Maybe time to report back here. Saturday, local bird reserve with hopefully a few birds around as it is a lean time of year, and further reporting.



Great, looking forward to a real review of this new camera.


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## Durf (Sep 13, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I'll be getting the 90D tomorrow about 2 pm. Timetable is first to AFMA with 100-400mm II and 400mm DO II. Then, compare resolution using charts with 5DSR and 5DIV. If time, check out any shutter shock. Maybe time to report back here. Saturday, local bird reserve with hopefully a few birds around as it is a lean time of year, and further reporting.


Looking forward to your opinion on this camera; I'll likely pick one up next year sometime.


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## SteveC (Sep 13, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I'll be getting the 90D tomorrow about 2 pm. Timetable is first to AFMA with 100-400mm II and 400mm DO II. Then, compare resolution using charts with 5DSR and 5DIV. If time, check out any shutter shock. Maybe time to report back here. Saturday, local bird reserve with hopefully a few birds around as it is a lean time of year, and further reporting.



It's sort-of the closest thing to the M6-II in many respects--but then again not really. Looking forward with interest nonetheless.


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## Scenes (Sep 13, 2019)

My 90D just arrived. Unboxing now


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2019)

First impressions. Exactly and you’d expect. It does indeed format SDXC cards as exfat so no more 4GB file splits. 

At first I thought the audio circuit had much more noise but then realised its the headphone monitoring. You can have this set MUCH louder then the 80D.

The screen instead of having a lip on the right hand side to flip it out isn’t on the top now. Not seen this mentioned before. Muscle memory is going to have to get used to that. 

4K looked great from limited testing. Leaving for a 3 day shoot this weekend so going to give it a work out.


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2019)

Side note if anyone can help... 

At some point I changed the function of ‘flash’ button on the left front of the body as you hold it so it turned Auto Focus on and off when filming. 

On the 90D that pops the flash up when I push it as the 80D originally did but it’s been so long I can’t find where in either menu of the 80D or 90D to change that setting.

If anyone can point out where that is that would be great.


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## Sharlin (Sep 14, 2019)

Scenes said:


> On the 90D that pops the flash up when I push it as the 80D originally did but it’s been so long I can’t find where in either menu of the 80D or 90D to change that setting.



Huh. I wasn't aware of this feature until now. Having tested it on my 80D, I think the flash button always toggles servo AF when in movie mode. I don't think it's customizable. But the 90D can't support it because the flash button is now mechanical, with a single purpose only.


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2019)

Sharlin said:


> Huh. I wasn't aware of this feature until now. Having tested it on my 80D, I think the flash button always toggles servo AF when in movie mode. I don't think it's customizable. But the 90D can't support it because the flash button is now mechanical, with a single purpose only.



I’m sure it’s something I set because I did it on the 70D also? Ah well. That makes sense if it’s mechanical. I don’t think I’ve ever fired the flash on the 70 or 80 lol. I’m sure i’ll Adjust to it. 

One other difference. The mic port opens from the top now rather then the bottom.


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## Sharlin (Sep 14, 2019)

Scenes said:


> I’m sure it’s something I set because I did it on the 70D also? Ah well. That makes sense if it’s mechanical. I don’t think I’ve ever fired the flash on the 70 or 80 lol. I’m sure i’ll Adjust to it.



The 80D manual has the following to say. I don't think the flash button behavior is customizable. The switch to a mechanical button is annoying because the flash button was also a shortcut to the flash menu, extremely convenient when using a speedlight and/or off-camera flashes.


> *Movie Servo AF*
> 
> With this function enabled, the camera focuses on the subject continuously during movie shooting. The default setting is [Enable].
> 
> ...


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## padam (Sep 14, 2019)

Scenes said:


> In this videos comments this YouTuber said at the media event Canon told him the 4K is downsampled from 6K. That’s as close to an official word we have on the matter. However it turns out Canon is getting to 4K I thought it looked pretty darn good.


In case of the 90D cropped 4k mode, yes it does downsample.
In case of the uncropped 4k mode however (which is the only one available for the M6 Mark II) no it isn't, so it is definitely softer, albeit with less rolling shutter.

It is worth noting though that the M6 Mark II can take a Speed Booster as well (even Metabones has one now alongside the softer Viltrox) that takes the crop down to just 1.14x which is effectively the biggest sensor area amongst Canon's stills cameras for 4k video, so it may be a big deal for some people.


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## scyrene (Sep 14, 2019)

Graphic.Artifacts said:


> Would it be OK if Canon dropped Av, odd numberred shutter speeds, ISO 800 or f8 from the M6II.



It would be weird, but if I still wanted the camera, I'd work around it. None of those things, barring the first one maybe (which I don't think is an apt comparison for that reason) are fundamental to shooting. You'd use ISO 640 or 1000, say, and nobody would notice. For me what's been odd is how vociferous the complaints have been. It was a slightly odd choice by Canon, it's annoying to some, but big deal, move on.


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## scyrene (Sep 14, 2019)

AlanF said:


> I'll be getting the 90D tomorrow about 2 pm. Timetable is first to AFMA with 100-400mm II and 400mm DO II. Then, compare resolution using charts with 5DSR and 5DIV. If time, check out any shutter shock. Maybe time to report back here. Saturday, local bird reserve with hopefully a few birds around as it is a lean time of year, and further reporting.



Exciting! I look forward to the results.


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## Sharlin (Sep 14, 2019)

scyrene said:


> For me what's been odd is how vociferous the complaints have been. It was a slightly odd choice by Canon, it's annoying to some, but big deal, move on.



It's an easy target for the trolls, unfortunately. Stupid Canon again made a camera that's literally unusable. And the whole 24 vs 25 vs 30 fps thing seems to be something of a religious issue for video people, with strong opinions and little factual support for them. Like shooting your vlog at 24 fps would automatically make it look like a Hollywood movie. And then there are the people who might actually have a professional need for 24fps and are annoyed because they don't want to spend money on professional hardware.


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## Scenes (Sep 14, 2019)

padam said:


> In case of the 90D cropped 4k mode, yes it does downsample.
> In case of the uncropped 4k mode however (which is the only one available for the M6 Mark II) no it isn't, so it is definitely softer, albeit with less rolling shutter.
> 
> It is worth noting though that the M6 Mark II can take a Speed Booster as well (even Metabones has one now alongside the softer Viltrox) that takes the crop down to just 1.14x which is effectively the biggest sensor area amongst Canon's stills cameras for 4k video, so it may be a big deal for some people.



Is there some kind of official word on that regarding the uncropped mode from reviewers and such? Or is the internet still reacting to one angry mans blog who stated it as fact without actual evidence?


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## padam (Sep 14, 2019)

Scenes said:


> Is there some kind of official word on that regarding the uncropped mode from reviewers and such? Or is the internet still reacting to one angry mans blog who stated it as fact without actual evidence?


Why not simply *look *at the footage? I've linked it earlier but other reviews show it as well...











You can clearly see that the uncropped 4k is a good deal *softer*, and it is the *only mode available* on the M6 Mark II

In terms of actual quality, the EOS R 4k would sit between them, the 90D crop mode is a little crisper, but no 24p, ALL-i codec or C-Log. The uncropped 4k mode rolling shutter is decent, only beaten by the 1DX II. The 90D 4k crop mode probably don't fare as well and close to the EOS R, which is not great.

Canon is *not stupid*, the video quality and capabilities are set *firmly *at every price level, and one has to pay extra to get more (unless they manage to hack it, which is very unlikely)


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## Scenes (Sep 15, 2019)

padam said:


> Why not simply *look *at the footage? I've linked it earlier but other reviews show it as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I saw the footage from your other post. I thought it looked great. 

I’m not disagreeing with you - if that is in fact how canon get to 4K in each case Then fair enough. I still think it looks great and I’m happy whatever. I’m not arguing it’s better quality than a RED or anything. 

What I’m getting at is.. are there any reviews or test charts or any conclusive reporting by the filmmaking community that actually confirms this is happening with canon’s ‘Upscale-gate’? 

Or does it all still stem form a rant on an angry blog post and you watching 90D reviews and going.. “yeah, that’s probably true ?


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## koenkooi (Sep 15, 2019)

padam said:


> In case of the 90D cropped 4k mode, yes it does downsample.
> [..]



Is it's downsampling or doing a straight 1:1 readout? If it's a 1.63x-ish crop it should be a 1:1 readout.


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## padam (Sep 15, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> Is it's downsampling or doing a straight 1:1 readout? If it's a 1.63x-ish crop it should be a 1:1 readout.


It is the M50 that does the 1:1 readout in 4k mode.
You can see that the crop is a lot less on the 90D and it has more than 24 megapixels like on the M50 and it also looks much sharper as well, so it is downsampling, although they so far haven't told how many pixels it is using exactly.
Maybe it is a similar to a 16:9 crop of what they are using in the silent RAW burst mode, which I am sure it written down somewhere in the specs.


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## pap-x (Sep 17, 2019)

koenkooi said:


> Is it's downsampling or doing a straight 1:1 readout? If it's a 1.63x-ish crop it should be a 1:1 readout.



From some quick measurements from the videos posted above the cropped mode does a 1.18x crop to the picture. That means that it uses around 6000 pixels in width of the sensor and judging from the warnings of overheating, it obviously performs a 6k to 4k downsampling hence the increased sharpness. 
In the uncropped mode the only way to efficiently use the full size of the sensor is by pixel binning (or line skipping but it's highly unlikely). If they did a 2x2 pixel binning the resulting video will have a 6960/2=3480 pixel width and it will need upsampling to get to 4k, a 3.5k to 4k upsampling to be specific which is not great but definitely not terrible.


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