# EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?



## Canon Rumors Guy (Jul 1, 2013)

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<p><strong>We’ll know tonight

</strong>We’ve received word that the new Canon EOS 70D which is right around the corner will set the benchmark for ISO performance from a crop camera.</p>
<p>That bit of information will make a lot of people happy, as it may mean Canon is ready to make a jump back into the top end of sensor and processor development.</p>
<p>We should be seeing sample images within the next 24 hours.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
```


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## DarkKnightNine (Jul 1, 2013)

Sounds exciting!


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## TWI by Dustin Abbott (Jul 1, 2013)

This is great news. I wouldn't mind having a crop body again for my longer lenses when I need reach, but I sold my 60D after I found that I was no longer reaching for it because I just didn't feel the IQ compared to my FF bodies, particularly when the light started fading.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 1, 2013)

Well, that ought to DRum up some DRead from the DRoll DRones who DRool over DR, and DRag many a forum thread down the DReary path of DRivel, DRaining into puddles of DRoss.


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## Woody (Jul 1, 2013)

We'll know soon if it's just for jpeg images (i.e., MORE NR) or true RAW files.

Anyway, I'm more curious if Canon has made any progress in the low ISO DR arena.


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## Malte_P (Jul 1, 2013)

about time canon APS-C sensors are on top again... 

i really hope this will be a winner.


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## bchernicoff (Jul 1, 2013)

I agree it might make a great backup body when more reach is needed.


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## Woody (Jul 1, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, that ought to DRum up some DRead from the DRoll DRones who DRool over DR, and DRag many a forum thread down the DReary path of DRivel, DRaining into puddles of DRoss.



;D ;D ;D


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## fstoparmy (Jul 1, 2013)

cant wait to see what it can do.. Im excited


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## schmidtfilme (Jul 1, 2013)

Sounds exciting, but what does it mean? Clean at 12000 or 25000? Or even higher? Sounds promising for the 7D MII


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## insanitybeard (Jul 1, 2013)

Interesting, if this is indeed the case, coupled with the 19pt AF, this could be a worthwhile replacement to the current 7D. I can live with a lower frame rate if the rest is up to par.


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## Click (Jul 1, 2013)

That"s a great news. Looking forward to see the result.


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## bchernicoff (Jul 1, 2013)

schmidtfilme said:


> Sounds exciting, but what does it mean? Clean at 12000 or 25000? Or even higher? Sounds promising for the 7D MII



What does it mean? Hopefully, it means that Canon has rolled out a new generation of sensor manufacturing that will carry forward to the next generation 1D and 5D bodies. Also, the long rumored high megapixel camera may be useful beyond the studio.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jul 1, 2013)

I'm waiting for the Nattering Nabobs of Negativism Band of Banding-Hunting Brothers to mention that it has obvious pattern banding at +10stops DEC & +1000 fill-light, as confirmed by Professor Professorson, PhD E.E., when pixel-voyeured at 800%...


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## Paramike (Jul 1, 2013)

Sounds very exciting! Will be very interested to see what it can do, though tbh, I'm usually quite happy with pictures from my 400D, so I guess this'll be a great surprise.

Do you have any idea what sort of time the announcement is going to be made? I'm never sure what determines which country makes the announcements of products, so can't really make a guess! I'm going to be working all night here though, so hopefully will be able to keep an eye on the news to see it


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## ag25 (Jul 1, 2013)

Woody said:


> We'll know soon if it's just for jpeg images (i.e., MORE NR) or true RAW files.
> 
> Anyway, I'm more curious if Canon has made any progress in the low ISO DR arena.



I doubt a _new sensor_ and _better ISO performance_ would only equate to smoother jpeg's. That's compression quality your thinking of.


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## dadgummit (Jul 1, 2013)

5X faster in live view and good high iso? Sounds like the next EOS-M will be a winner too!!


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## Lee Jay (Jul 1, 2013)

What about low-ISO performance (as in, dynamic range/read noise)?


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## preppyak (Jul 1, 2013)

ag25 said:


> I doubt a _new sensor_ and _better ISO performance_ would only equate to smoother jpeg's. That's compression quality your thinking of.


True, but the "one stop better" in some previous models has been made in compression quality and not in the RAW files. For example, many initially were point out that Canon was saying two stops of improvement between the 5DII and 5DIII, yet, it was only in jpgs. In Raw files. it was about a stop or maybe a little less.

So, it matters where the improvement is made


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 1, 2013)

ag25 said:


> I doubt a _new sensor_ and _better ISO performance_ would only equate to smoother jpeg's. That's compression quality your thinking of.



Should mean better IQ for raw as well, obviously the quality of a converted raw depends on the quality of the post-processing and the quality of the person making the decisions. Cleaner raw's would be good, as apart from low iso noise, I would be happy with the jpegs from my current cameras, the M is actually a step up in this regard, I still like to do a bit of luminance NR on the M's raws, just very slightly, otherwise they are usable out of the camera by any other criteria.


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## whatta (Jul 1, 2013)

dadgummit said:


> 5X faster in live view and good high iso? Sounds like the next EOS-M will be a winner too!!



or finally (after four!! generations with the same sensor) a good rebel (750d/T6i) to replace my 400d ;-)


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## Kufat (Jul 1, 2013)

Is the lack of AFMA confirmed or are we holding out some slight hope for it to make a surprise re-appearance?


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## David Hull (Jul 1, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, that ought to DRum up some DRead from the DRoll DRones who DRool over DR, and DRag many a forum thread down the DReary path of DRivel, DRaining into puddles of DRoss.



Hopefully they improved the low ISO read noise but I'll believe it when I see it (and I really do hope we see it). Don't worry about that shutting down the bellyachers though -- bellyachers are quite resourceful  Funny post though.


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## Zv (Jul 1, 2013)

I am very excited about this, not because I'm gonna buy the 70D but for what it means for the 7D2! I love my 7D too much to go sell it for a 70D, I wonder how many will though? I mean if that ISO is clean at even 1600 and good at 3200 it might tempt a few. I am finding that nowadays I end up using ISO 1600 a lot. I would love to just be able to leave the camera at ISO 3200 and just shoot all day, especially indoors, getting max efficiency from a flash too!


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## Don Haines (Jul 1, 2013)

As has been said before, the introduction of the 70D is very exciting, particularly the clues it offers to the upcoming 7D2. Remember, canon said the 7D2 will be "ground breaking", not the 70D.... So whatever happens with the 70D is not " groundbreaking".

If new standard of iso performance and 5Xfaster live view focus in crop cameras is not "groundbreaking", then the 7D2 must be something to behold!


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## dadgummit (Jul 1, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> As has been said before, the introduction of the 70D is very exciting, particularly the clues it offers to the upcoming 7D2. Remember, canon said the 7D2 will be "ground breaking", not the 70D.... So whatever happens with the 70D is not " groundbreaking".
> 
> If new standard of iso performance and 5Xfaster live view focus in crop cameras is not "groundbreaking", then the 7D2 must be something to behold!



Good Point. On paper the 70D has everything I would want in a crop body (as long as it has AFMA).

To improve on this my guess is it will be focused toward sports. Maybe 10+ FPS, Totally weather sealed, maybe a 1d style body, Many more AF points, etc.


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## AvTvM (Jul 1, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, that ought to DRum up some DRead from the DRoll DRones who DRool over DR, and DRag many a forum thread down the DReary path of DRivel, DRaining into puddles of DRoss.



1. it's not even a straight rumour, but onl y a "hearsay rumor".  

2. just to get even with the Nikon D7100, the 70D will need: 
a. +2 EV DR @ base/low ISO 
b. AND 1 EV less noise @ Hi ISO (1600+) 

3. compared to Fuji X (APS-C Trans Sensor) the 70D needs 3+ stops improvement in Hi ISO noise [see dpreview RAW comparison] 

So ... really nothing to get excited yet. AFter all, Canon has proclaimed "the future of photography" a couple of times already and then delivered only very minor improvements.


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## distant.star (Jul 1, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, that ought to DRum up some DRead from the DRoll DRones who DRool over DR, and DRag many a forum thread down the DReary path of DRivel, DRaining into puddles of DRoss.



Very DRoll of you, DR.


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## whatta (Jul 1, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> As has been said before, the introduction of the 70D is very exciting, particularly the clues it offers to the upcoming 7D2. Remember, canon said the 7D2 will be "ground breaking", not the 70D.... So whatever happens with the 70D is not " groundbreaking".
> 
> If new standard of iso performance and 5Xfaster live view focus in crop cameras is not "groundbreaking", then the 7D2 must be something to behold!



well, according to what we have seen in the past years, the 7D2 (and few generations of rebels) will have the same sensor as the 70d..


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 1, 2013)

I'm very leery of Canon's ISO figures, they are for jpeg images that are highly processed with lots of NR. Their Digic 5+ gives them power to do a lot of good quality NR, but it does not boost the underlying sensor performance. Still, any improvement is good. They claim ISO 12800 (25600 expanded) which is definitely a stop better, but its for jpegs.

The native ISO of a RAW image is more telling.

I hope it has AFMA, without it, images using a 20mp sensor will not be as sharp as they can be.


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## lastcoyote (Jul 1, 2013)

i'll be really pleased if the 70D and the 7DII have nice clean low iso noise files and good DR as I'll be interested in replacing my 40D for my macro work with either of these bodies.


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## GMCPhotographics (Jul 1, 2013)

While this is good news, the caveat here is apparent....a new benchmark....for a crop sensor. I seriously doubt that it'll match or even come close the high Iso performance of the 1DX, 6D or 5DIII.


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## ehouli (Jul 1, 2013)

I'm not really hopping that Canon will improve much on noise and DR. 

Probably most of the pictures will be processed through DPP to have it cleaned and ready to show. Also the cameras will have a NR that will make images look soft.


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## firebreatherboy (Jul 1, 2013)

looks like the next generation of sensor fabrication is here.

Good news is that the next full frame cameras will be even more better.

By the way, i hope sony and thoshiba too launch new tech and keep things going in competition. At last, it's us the consumers who are benefited.


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## weixing (Jul 1, 2013)

Hi,
Just hope Canon don't follow Nikon and Sony to "pre-cooked" the RAW files... I want the RAW files to be as "RAW" as possible.

Have a nice day.


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## Dylan777 (Jul 1, 2013)

GMCPhotographics said:


> While this is good news, the caveat here is apparent....a new benchmark....for a crop sensor. I seriously doubt that it'll match or even come close the high Iso performance of the 1DX, 6D or 5DIII.



If 1stop less in RAW :...I'll pick one up or maybe 7D II for more reach.

70D or 7D III 3200ISO is same as 5D III 6400ISO, I'm in ;D


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## TheBadger (Jul 1, 2013)

Canon sets the bar... to a new low!! 

(LOL just kidding)


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## mb66energy (Jul 1, 2013)

From the original Post:
"We’ve received word that the new Canon EOS 70D which is right around the corner will set the benchmark for ISO performance from a crop camera."


... so it will pave the way for a 50 MPix FF sensor with reasonable ISO ... which has a mRAW mode with a 2x2 pixel binning for 12.5 MPix full color files ... just letting my thoughts flow ... would be very interesting ...


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## Lee Jay (Jul 1, 2013)

weixing said:


> I want the RAW files to be as "RAW" as possible.



There are certain things (quite a few, actually) that really should be done to raw data before they are saved, including hot/dead pixel mapping, correlated double sampling, and ADC calibration.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 1, 2013)

Lee Jay said:


> weixing said:
> 
> 
> > I want the RAW files to be as "RAW" as possible.
> ...



Is the application chroma NR one of those things? How about a median blur filter for long exposure shots? :


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## Tom W (Jul 1, 2013)

If the files are truly clean and not doctored to appear clean, then this might make a nice companion to the 5D3. I really like having two bodies, especially when I'm at an event and don't want to swap lenses back and forth. Having a nice, high pixel-density cropper alongside my full frame body gives me a lot of flexibility as well.


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## OmarSV11 (Jul 1, 2013)

After seeing the 70D specs I have real doubts about buying a 6D. Yeah, what Im talking about??? FF sensor!!! Kill me now. But as far as overall performance the 70D just topped my choice of usefull specs vs. 6D, When I travel to NYC to buy my new body the balance is to the crop body for sure :S (If my budget/credit card flunks on the 5DmkIII)


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## unfocused (Jul 1, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> As has been said before, the introduction of the 70D is very exciting, particularly the clues it offers to the upcoming 7D2. Remember, canon said the 7D2 will be "ground breaking", not the 70D.... So whatever happens with the 70D is not " groundbreaking"...



I'm not going to pin too much hope on the "groundbreaking." I suspect that for competitive reasons Canon elected to announce the 70D before the 7DII since Nikon has been dragging their feet on the D300S replacement. I expect the two bodies to share the same sensor. 

If this new sensor offers a stop or two improvement in noise and they couple that with a 5DIII-style autofocus, dual card slots, the same or better frame rate, retain the joystick and other controls and beef up the weathersealing, it will be one heck of a camera and they'll get my money.


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## Chosenbydestiny (Jul 1, 2013)

This is pretty big news. I just hope the hype fits the announcement and we aren't forced into a compromise for the "overall" cleaner files i.e. banding in the shadows at low ISO =P


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## mb66energy (Jul 1, 2013)

OmarSV11 said:


> After seeing the 70D specs I have real doubts about buying a 6D. Yeah, what Im talking about??? FF sensor!!! Kill me now. But as far as overall performance the 70D just topped my choice of usefull specs vs. 6D, When I travel to NYC to buy my new body the balance is to the crop body for sure :S (If my budget/credit card flunks on the 5DmkIII)



Why not? APS-C isn't worse than the best 35mm cameras with the best film material we had in the 1990ies - and if you have a good lens arsenal why change everything?
I am really glad with my 600D for movies and the 5.6 400:
5.6 640 effectively
5.6 1920 with 3x zoom (one physical pixel = 1 1080p pixel)
With FF? never possible.

The 2.8 100 acts as a 2.8 160mm which his very helpful and the 10-22 ultrawide does a reasonable job. I really prefer to wait for a FF mirrorless (if that will happen) for high resolution/low DOF/reusing my FD lenses and a compact HQ camera and ... use APS-C longer than planned initially.

If ISO 1600 is very clean with the 70D there is no reason to change the sensor format FOR ME.


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## RGomezPhotos (Jul 1, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, that ought to DRum up some DRead from the DRoll DRones who DRool over DR, and DRag many a forum thread down the DReary path of DRivel, DRaining into puddles of DRoss.



;D

I can only imagine how awesome the big MP cam is going to be....


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## 2n10 (Jul 1, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, that ought to DRum up some DRead from the DRoll DRones who DRool over DR, and DRag many a forum thread down the DReary path of DRivel, DRaining into puddles of DRoss.


 ;D 8)

Very well put.


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## 2n10 (Jul 1, 2013)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> I'm waiting for the Nattering Nabobs of Negativism Band of Banding-Hunting Brothers to mention that it has obvious pattern banding at +10stops DEC & +1000 fill-light, as confirmed by Professor Professorson, PhD E.E., when pixel-voyeured at 800%...



Lovely assessment.


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## Lee Jay (Jul 1, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Lee Jay said:
> 
> 
> > weixing said:
> ...



No. Black frame subtraction, but not either of those.


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## wsmith96 (Jul 1, 2013)

I vote for just waiting to see the actual announcement and features list rather than speculating how we can take all of the features of canon's flagship cameras and stuff them into a consumer model for pennies on the dollar.


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## hamada (Jul 2, 2013)

wsmith96 said:


> I vote for just waiting to see the actual announcement and features list rather than speculating how we can take all of the features of canon's flagship cameras and stuff them into a consumer model for pennies on the dollar.



we have seen the feature list of the 70D already.


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## dr croubie (Jul 2, 2013)

How about a new benchmark in Low ISO performance? Like ISO 50 or 25?
(I don't care if the DR/Noise/whatever curves taper off to horizontal below 100 or 200, it would just be nice to be able use slower ISOs sometimes, like wide-open portraits in full sun without resorting to an ND)


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## xylus (Jul 2, 2013)

Paramike said:


> Sounds very exciting! Will be very interested to see what it can do, though tbh, I'm usually quite happy with pictures from my 400D, so I guess this'll be a great surprise.
> 
> Do you have any idea what sort of time the announcement is going to be made? I'm never sure what determines which country makes the announcements of products, so can't really make a guess! I'm going to be working all night here though, so hopefully will be able to keep an eye on the news to see it


Looks like another 400D owner is waiting for an upgrade!


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## cookinghusband (Jul 2, 2013)

It should be as good as the 6D or even better. 
This is how DSLR grow. ie newer better ISO performance or more pixels


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 2, 2013)

cookinghusband said:


> It should be as good as the 6D or even better.
> This is how DSLR grow. ie newer better ISO performance or more pixels



Except that sensor size matters. A lot.


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## dougkerr (Jul 2, 2013)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> I'm waiting for the Nattering Nabobs of Negativism Band of Banding-Hunting Brothers to mention that it has obvious pattern banding at +10stops DEC & +1000 fill-light, as confirmed by Professor Professorson, PhD E.E., when pixel-voyeured at 800%...



"Nattering Nabobs of *Negativity*".

-Spiro Agnew, written by William Safire

Best regards,

Doug Kerr


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jul 2, 2013)

dougkerr said:


> Mark D5 TEAM II said:
> 
> 
> > I'm waiting for the Nattering Nabobs of Negativism Band of Banding-Hunting Brothers to mention that it has obvious pattern banding at +10stops DEC & +1000 fill-light, as confirmed by Professor Professorson, PhD E.E., when pixel-voyeured at 800%...
> ...



Nice try, thanks for playing . http://www.answers.com/topic/nattering-nabobs-of-negativism


Also, look up Agnew's & Safire's Wiki for your edification. ;D


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 2, 2013)

xylus said:


> Paramike said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds very exciting! Will be very interested to see what it can do, though tbh, I'm usually quite happy with pictures from my 400D, so I guess this'll be a great surprise.
> ...



If it wasn't for the advent of DSLR video, I wouldn't have been in any great rush to change my 400D. Mine was tired from extensive use, but as you say, the images are pretty good to this day.

Going to a 7D, the thing that mattered least to me was megapixels, or high ISO particularly (still have my film head on, I see folk shooting at iso 102'500 and just think, why?... there can't be any contrast in light that dim, sometimes things are supposed to be dark) that said my 7D at 3200 is like the 400D at 800, and the 7D is outdone by my M, by at least a stop of noise.

A decent pentaprism viewfinder, better handling, off camera E-TTL flash command, and the increased buffer rates are all great reasons to upgrade. I never looked back, even although I really really enjoyed my time with the 400D.


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## tron (Jul 2, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, that ought to DRum up some DRead from the DRoll DRones who DRool over DR, and DRag many a forum thread down the DReary path of DRivel, DRaining into puddles of DRoss.


DRoolific sentence ;D


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## GMCPhotographics (Jul 2, 2013)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> I'm waiting for the Nattering Nabobs of Negativism Band of Banding-Hunting Brothers to mention that it has obvious pattern banding at +10stops DEC & +1000 fill-light, as confirmed by Professor Professorson, PhD E.E., when pixel-voyeured at 800%...



Which will undoubtably "prove" that this camera is useless for any photographer who refuses to metre and expose their photographs properly!


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## whothafunk (Jul 2, 2013)

Where exactly was stated or who said, that 70D will set a new benchmark for High ISO? ..


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## jebrady03 (Jul 2, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> Where exactly was stated or who said, that 70D will set a new benchmark for High ISO? ..



Yeah, I came back to this thread wondering the same thing. I haven't seen anything in any of the announcements, hands-on previews, etc., that addresses ISO performance being better than before.

Anyone have any info I may have missed?


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## whothafunk (Jul 2, 2013)

> We couldn’t put a card in the camera because it is a pre-production unit. With that said, we were told to *expect comparable ISO performance with the 7D* and better color due to the new pixel structure.



http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/07/02/first-impressions-canon-70d/

quite a bummer, but I guess expectable?


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## jebrady03 (Jul 2, 2013)

Thanks! 
Obviously this part of the 70D rumor mill was way off.


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## sarakoth (Jul 3, 2013)

Well with everything I have seen, it really will come down to IQ in comparison to the 6D for me.. I like pretty much all the features of the 70D over the 6D, especially the better AF it seems, but need to see actual tests and comparisons of the final IQ.. I expect the 6D to be better beign FF, but not by too much and I could live with that for the other features and price saving... if that is the case then I will be happy with a 70D as an upgrade from my aging 500D. If the IQ is not up to par then I guess I will have to wait for the 7D2 and see just how ridiculous the price is and again see if the 7D2 IQ matches or even exceeds the 6D.


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## M.ST (Jul 3, 2013)

Yes wait for the 7D Mark II.

If the 7D Mark II hit the market, the price you pay for a 5D Mark III or 6D is absolutely a shame compared to the possibilities of the new 7D Mark II. Not every hobby photographers needs a FF camera.


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## MichaelHodges (Jul 3, 2013)

Interesting news on a potential new sensor, but I'm mostly interested in noise and DR performance at low ISO RAW.

That's the biggest weakness of my 7D, which is otherwise quite good.


-----------
http://michaelhodgesfiction.com/


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## tesign (Jul 3, 2013)

Seem like there is no mention of the 70D having weather sealing.


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## whothafunk (Jul 3, 2013)

it does have weather sealing to some degree


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## Dick (Jul 3, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> it does have weather sealing to some degree



Everything does... to some degree.


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## Mark D5 TEAM II (Jul 3, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> > We couldn’t put a card in the camera because it is a pre-production unit. With that said, we were told to *expect comparable ISO performance with the 7D* and better color due to the new pixel structure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> There isn’t much in terms of controls here, but you should note that _there is an AF assist beam_, lens release, and the shutter button.



I stopped reading that "preview" when I saw that line. Lulz.  Obvious non Canon DSLR user 2 weeks ago...


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## verysimplejason (Jul 3, 2013)

If it can perform well at least until ISO 6400 (raw), I'm sold. A little bit DR would also help. I hope it can perform at least 1 stop below 6D. That would be my dream.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2013)

tesign said:


> Seem like there is no mention of the 70D having weather sealing.



Seems you just missed it being mentioned several times in several places. 

Same sealing as 60D (1-series >> 5DIII = 7D > 70D = 60D = 50D = 5DII).


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## robbinzo (Jul 3, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> Where exactly was stated or who said, that 70D will set a new benchmark for High ISO? ..



Maybe this:

"The EOS 70D sensor has been manufactured using new materials in the colour filter, which enables the camera to achieve higher light transmittance. When combined with improved transistors inside the pixels, the EOS 70D is able to shoot at higher ISO speeds than previous models, whilst ensuring advanced image quality."

http://www.eos-magazine.com/EOS%20digital%20cameras/EOS%20system/Digital%20cameras/EOS%2070D/eos70d.html


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## AlanF (Jul 3, 2013)

sarakoth said:


> Well with everything I have seen, it really will come down to IQ in comparison to the 6D for me.. I like pretty much all the features of the 70D over the 6D, especially the better AF it seems, but need to see actual tests and comparisons of the final IQ.. I expect the 6D to be better beign FF, but not by too much and I could live with that for the other features and price saving... if that is the case then I will be happy with a 70D as an upgrade from my aging 500D. If the IQ is not up to par then I guess I will have to wait for the 7D2 and see just how ridiculous the price is and again see if the 7D2 IQ matches or even exceeds the 6D.



The AF consistency of the 7D is poor, as shown by Focal, Lensrental etc (and in my own experience) whereas the 6D has very consistent focus. So, unless they have improved the 7D 19-point system, the 6D should be better, despite the fewer points.


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## tron (Jul 3, 2013)

robbinzo said:


> whothafunk said:
> 
> 
> > Where exactly was stated or who said, that 70D will set a new benchmark for High ISO? ..
> ...


This is a rather vague description. It doesn't say anything specific.

For example: Raw files, ISO xxx of 70D = Raw files ISO yyy of another Canon camera 

Anything else is marketing BS!


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2013)

tron said:


> robbinzo said:
> 
> 
> > whothafunk said:
> ...



Au contraire...it's quite specific, and unassailable truth. Let's break it down:

1) _new CFA materials with higher transmittance, and new circuitry_ - ok, we have to take Canon's word on that, but why would they lie? And if the new CFA materials lower production costs and just happen to have higher transmittance as a side effect, that's all good.

2) _the 70D is able to shoot at higher ISOs than previous models_ - it's spec is 100-12800 with one stop expanded, and the 60D is 100-6400 with one stop expanded, so that's true

3) _it has advanced IQ_ - can be said of all current dSLRs, so that's true as well

See, that's the essence of marketing speak - be very specific and make accurate statements, whilst not really saying anything meaningful. 

BS by any other name... :


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## tron (Jul 3, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> tron said:
> 
> 
> > robbinzo said:
> ...


I am talking about ISO which is this thread's title.

Are we sure that Raw ISO 12800 performance of 70D = Raw ISO 6400 performance of 60D for example? 

This is only the part I was criticizing and yes improved ISO performance is good for all of us so I do wish there will be. It is just that I will have to see something concrete to believe it...


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## deleteme (Jul 3, 2013)

unfocused said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > As has been said before, the introduction of the 70D is very exciting, particularly the clues it offers to the upcoming 7D2. Remember, canon said the 7D2 will be "ground breaking", not the 70D.... So whatever happens with the 70D is not " groundbreaking"...
> ...



IMO the "groundbreaking" aspect of the 7D2 will be an EVF.


----------



## whothafunk (Jul 3, 2013)

Mark D5 TEAM II said:


> whothafunk said:
> 
> 
> > > We couldn’t put a card in the camera because it is a pre-production unit. With that said, we were told to *expect comparable ISO performance with the 7D* and better color due to the new pixel structure.
> ...


I didn't go through the whole preview, just the ISO part as this link and the quote was posted on POTN forum. I just forward it here, as it was the only source (rumor) saying something about the ISO. Nothing wrong with that, since CRumors welcomes all rumors they can get, no?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Jul 3, 2013)

@ tron - sorry, I forgot to append the <sarcasm> tags...


----------



## x-vision (Jul 3, 2013)

Normalnorm said:


> IMO the "groundbreaking" aspect of the 7D2 will be an EVF.



Canon never said _groundbreaking_, actually. 
In a January interview, Canon's camera boss said that 7DII will *evolve in new territory*. 
English in not my first language but I sense a difference between 'evolve' and 'groundbreaking' 8).

The thing to consider is that if the 7DII just gets the new 70D sensor, it has already evolved in new territory - due to the expended AF system abilities for video.

My hope is that the 70D will use a sensor with better ISO capabilities than the 70D - even if this means reducing the number of MPs compared to the 70D.


----------



## K-amps (Jul 3, 2013)

When do we get to see RAW footage?


----------



## Marsu42 (Jul 3, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> the 70D is able to shoot at higher ISOs than previous models - it's spec is 100-12800 with one stop expanded, and the 60D is 100-6400 with one stop expanded, so that's true



The highest real analog iso setting on the 18mp crop sensors is 3200, everything above is digitally pushed, and even worse the amplification noise for 6400 is so high it's better to underexpose at 3200. Intermediary and pushed isos are fine for jpeg and video, but for raw the analog choices are 100/200/400/800/1600/3200.

So the question about the 70d is if an expanded iso range actually means higher "real" analog sensor iso settings, or if it's a marketing/digital make-believe.



M.ST said:


> If the 7D Mark II hit the market, the price you pay for a 5D Mark III or 6D is absolutely a shame compared to the possibilities of the new 7D Mark II. Not every hobby photographers needs a FF camera.



I'm ready to believe this for the 6d in an instant, but if the 7d2 will really be a crop 5d3 plus even more features at a reasonable price then this will be the model that redeems Canon from all past under-speced or high-priced blunders.


----------



## AvTvM (Jul 4, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> The highest real analog iso setting on the 18mp crop sensors is 3200, everything above is digitally pushed,



do you have a source for this, please? Thanks!


----------



## Marsu42 (Jul 4, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > The highest real analog iso setting on the 18mp crop sensors is 3200, everything above is digitally pushed,
> ...



There are multiple threads on the Magic Lantern forum, last one with some in-depth graphs from a guy called AudioNut, unfortunately I haven't bookmarked it so you have to look for yourself: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/

The information and another thread is also here (under "Is ISO 6400 digitally pushed?"): http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/ISO


----------



## AvTvM (Jul 4, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Marsu42 said:
> ...



Thanks. 
While this may be the case for video and jpg output out of camera, I doubt it for stills, captured in RAW. But I have never really looked into it myself.
Personally with my 7D I always and solely capture RAW, use only multiples of ISO 100 and go up to 3200 .. .and get good or at least acceptable results ... for my level of expectation.


----------



## rpt (Jul 4, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Well, that ought to DRum up some DRead from the DRoll DRones who DRool over DR, and DRag many a forum thread down the DReary path of DRivel, DRaining into puddles of DRoss.


ROFL! 
Neuro, you are too much! Brilliant! However, do you really want to DRive the DR DRama onwards? I'D Rather DRop it.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jul 4, 2013)

AvTvM said:


> While this may be the case for video and jpg output out of camera, I doubt it for stills, captured in RAW. But I have never really looked into it myself.



It esp. applies to raw - the data is just shifted around using a higher bv, look for the graphs in the ml forum that demonstrate this and also show that iso 6400 in raw is worse then underexposing 3200 and properly raising in post ... unfortunately I had to learn this the hard way, wondering why iso 1000 looks sooooo much worse than 800 :-(


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## cookinghusband (Jul 8, 2013)

a 70D doing better than 6D in ISO performance is all possible. 
Just like a 6 cylinder car out doing a 8 cylinder car of the same engine capacity because they have new technology applied. but when then new tech is apply to the 8 cylinder engine it will over come again.

So APS-c do better than FF for a while, then FF improve again.


----------



## Jan Jasinski (Jul 8, 2013)

cookinghusband said:


> a 70D doing better than 6D in ISO performance is all possible.
> Just like a 6 cylinder car out doing a 8 cylinder car of the same engine capacity because they have new technology applied. but when then new tech is apply to the 8 cylinder engine it will over come again.
> 
> So APS-c do better than FF for a while, then FF improve again.


Why on earth would they make a 1200$ camera that outperforms the 6D? Then no one would buy the 6D because it would only be advantaged to having GPS. The 6D has benchmark ISO performance, currently the best on the market which is why it attracks so many low light shooters.


----------



## bdunbar79 (Jul 8, 2013)

cookinghusband said:


> a 70D doing better than 6D in ISO performance is all possible.
> Just like a 6 cylinder car out doing a 8 cylinder car of the same engine capacity because they have new technology applied. but when then new tech is apply to the 8 cylinder engine it will over come again.
> 
> So APS-c do better than FF for a while, then FF improve again.


----------



## verysimplejason (Jul 8, 2013)

bdunbar79 said:


> cookinghusband said:
> 
> 
> > a 70D doing better than 6D in ISO performance is all possible.
> ...



That's taken by a 70D? WOW!!! ;D


----------



## dtaylor (Jul 8, 2013)

cookinghusband said:


> a 70D doing better than 6D in ISO performance is all possible.



I hope the 70D improves upon Canon's current 18 MP sensor high ISO, but I have zero expectation that it would be better then the 6D in this respect. It is technologically possible for a crop sensor to out perform a FF one on high ISO. Just try any modern APS-C camera against the original 1Ds. But that's not going to happen within the same generation.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 8, 2013)

never mind that, who is the hipster in the hard hat? Stick him on a fixie bike and it could be Bradley Wiggins with those side burns.

This is like one of those awful oil company promo pics of a driller in the artic clapping a polar bear to show they care. But with ironic glasses.


----------



## pedro (Jul 8, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> cookinghusband said:
> 
> 
> > a 70D doing better than 6D in ISO performance is all possible.
> ...



That's correct. The good effect of all that is improvement across the whole field which will be applied in a hopefully much more advanced form in upcoming FF bodies.


----------



## tron (Jul 8, 2013)

pedro said:


> ankorwatt said:
> 
> 
> > cookinghusband said:
> ...


And then we wake up ;D


----------



## RVB (Jul 8, 2013)

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos70d/


----------



## pedro (Jul 9, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > ankorwatt said:
> ...



*"EV Group's GEMINI FB fusion wafer bonding platform is the de facto industry standard for CMOS image sensor production, and already leads the industry in wafer-to-wafer alignment accuracy due to our proprietary SmartView alignment technology," stated Dr. Thorsten Matthias, business development director at EV Group. "Measuring and mapping each die gives valuable insight into local stress variations created during upstream processes, which can cause distortions and local misalignments further downstream."*

@ankorwatt: If my limited tech comprehension (even severe as a non-anglo) doesn't lead me off track, it is a similar process you were mentioning earlier. So I hope Canon are adjusting to this processes in their own fabrication procedures as well.


----------



## Tanja (Jul 9, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > ankorwatt said:
> ...



and while your spending half you life arguing about DR on internet forums others take great pictures with 6 year old cameras. 

it´s sometimes so embarrasing to read gear focused photography websites. 8)


----------



## Marsu42 (Jul 10, 2013)

Tanja said:


> and while your spending half you life arguing about DR on internet forums others take great pictures with 6 year old cameras.



So? Nobody is disputing this, but this is not what this thread is about. Also with better gear you have more safety margin for critical situations, this isn't mutually exclusive that there were even good shots in the analog days or even in the old west with b/w pinhole cameras.



Tanja said:


> it´s sometimes so embarrasing to read gear focused photography websites. 8)



For me, the most creepy thing is seeing people who take the time read and post on tech forums flame other people doing the same thing basically arguing they should get a life ... it's not like anybody is forced to read any rumor thread if he/she isn't interested in speculating.


----------



## wsmith96 (Jul 23, 2013)

paul13walnut5 said:


> This is like one of those awful oil company promo pics of a driller in the artic clapping a polar bear to show they care.



I'm not sure that giving a polar bear the clap is showing how someone cares ;D


----------



## RLPhoto (Jul 23, 2013)

Has Nikon awoken the slumbering beast that is Canon Inc? IDK, but I remember vividly when AMD Anthlon 64 was head and shoulders above Intel Pent.4 in performance... Then Intel released Conroe and AMD was like   ....


----------



## Hardproducer (Jul 24, 2013)

If its totaly clean @ iso3200 i will be very happy!


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## vscd (Jul 24, 2013)

I don't think that the 70D will be far better than the 60D. The better Chiptechnology will loose a lot of it's capabilities to the fact that the resolution is higher and the pixels are even smaller because the PhaseDetection-AF is next to the Lightsensor. On the papers from Canon the Pixels are about 50% of the former ones... I think we can be lucky if the 70D has a little bit more IQ than the 60D or 700D.

Do we really need more ISO? Infact Canon Sensors have great ISO-Specs. Canon should make other important improvement (better Dynamic Range, get rid of the Bayer-scheme and the AA-Filter etc.). Magic Lantern is more innovative lately than the mother Canon itself.


----------



## RLPhoto (Jul 24, 2013)

ankorwatt said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Has Nikon awoken the slumbering beast that is Canon Inc? IDK, but I remember vividly when AMD Anthlon 64 was head and shoulders above Intel Pent.4 in performance... Then Intel released Conroe and AMD was like   ....
> ...



I guess the point flew right over.


----------



## whothafunk (Jul 25, 2013)

Hardproducer said:


> If its totaly clean @ iso3200 i will be very happy!


haha. because 1dx and 6d produce noiseless pictures at 3200, right.


----------



## rs (Jul 25, 2013)

vscd said:


> I don't think that the 70D will be far better than the 60D. The better Chiptechnology will loose a lot of it's capabilities to the fact that the resolution is higher and the pixels are even smaller because the PhaseDetection-AF is next to the Lightsensor. On the papers from Canon the Pixels are about 50% of the former ones... I think we can be lucky if the 70D has a little bit more IQ than the 60D or 700D.


The 'PhaseDetection-AF' and the 'Lightsensor' are one and the same thing in the dual pixel AF. Under each microlens, instead on one 'Lightsensor', there are two. For AF, the two are read individually to detect phase. For making an image, the two are combined to recreate what a normal sized 'Lightsensor' under the microlens would see.


----------



## Hardproducer (Jul 25, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> Hardproducer said:
> 
> 
> > If its totaly clean @ iso3200 i will be very happy!
> ...



Yup, They almost do  But i don't think canon can make FF quality in a 1.6 Crop xD we will see


----------



## Darlip (Jul 25, 2013)

Not sure if it has been posted before, but here is a link to a polish site with test shots ranging from ISO 100-25600.

Canon EOS 70D + EF 50mm f/1.2L USM, JPEG with in-camera noisereduction off and lowest sharpening.

http://www.optyczne.pl/6029-nowo%C5%9B%C4%87-Canon_EOS_70D_-_zdj%C4%99cia_przyk%C5%82adowe.html

/Dar


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## whothafunk (Jul 25, 2013)

doesnt say much, because we dont have any comparison versus, f.e., 7D/60D etc. 

and noise results get much worse when shooting in poorly lit rooms/avenues.


----------



## Darlip (Jul 25, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> doesnt say much, because we dont have any comparison versus, f.e., 7D/60D etc.
> 
> and noise results get much worse when shooting in poorly lit rooms/avenues.



Same scenes with 60D further down on the page:

http://www.optyczne.pl/140.9-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_60D__Podsumowanie.html

7D

http://www.optyczne.pl/114.9-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_7D_Podsumowanie.html


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## Marsu42 (Jul 25, 2013)

Darlip said:


> Not sure if it has been posted before, but here is a link to a polish site with test shots ranging from ISO 100-25600.



They shot this with the 50L @f8 and it's still soft which makes me believe these jpeg shots might have (some) noise reduction applied? 

Anyway, the 60d vs 70d comparison doesn't get my hopes up for a significant performance, the 70d looks about the same as the 60d plus a minor boost in resolution:

* iso800: http://pliki.optyczne.pl/C60D/IMG_3442.JPG vs. http://pliki.optyczne.pl/C70D/przyk1/C70D_f14.JPG
* iso6400: http://pliki.optyczne.pl/C60D/IMG_3464.JPG vs. http://pliki.optyczne.pl/C70D/przyk1/C70D_f17.JPG

As always, this is really not saying anything until a final 70d raw converter is out which usually takes a while because ACR is only released every couple of months.


----------



## paul13walnut5 (Jul 25, 2013)

wsmith96 said:


> paul13walnut5 said:
> 
> 
> > This is like one of those awful oil company promo pics of a driller in the artic clapping a polar bear to show they care.
> ...



I think that would be the last time they tried that with a polar bear.


----------



## Hardproducer (Jul 26, 2013)

For what i have seen the 70D example pictures looks nice. But it's hard to compare a picture from a 70d with another from a 60d. I need the same object shoot with both DSLRs with same lens to compare.

Are there any example pictures from 70d vs 60d on full size?


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## Marsu42 (Jul 26, 2013)

Hardproducer said:


> Are there any example pictures from 70d vs 60d on full size?



For the answer/links look just two post above :-\


----------



## i2c (Jul 26, 2013)

Hi there! 
I have checked and compared pictures of 60D, 70D and 7D at 6400 ISO from the polish site and I've noticed the following:
1. In the exif, I've noticed a difference in exposure: for 60D and 7D time was 1/3200 and no exposure compensation, and for the 70D it was 1/2000 and +1EV compensation. Not really the same in my opinion but let's say it will do.
2. If you check the brushes on the right side of the images, you'll see that for 60D and 7D the metal part is blown away (no details or very little), but the 70D retains all detail. In case they didn't change the lights orientation ( and if you check the reflection on the bottles they seems to be the same), that means some more dynamic range for the 70D.
BUT, in the shadows it seems to me to be more chroma noise, so maybe they are using HTP.
What do you think?


----------



## jrista (Jul 26, 2013)

i2c said:


> Hi there!
> I have checked and compared pictures of 60D, 70D and 7D at 6400 ISO from the polish site and I've noticed the following:
> 1. In the exif, I've noticed a difference in exposure: for 60D and 7D time was 1/3200 and no exposure compensation, and for the 70D it was 1/2000 and +1EV compensation. Not really the same in my opinion but let's say it will do.
> 2. If you check the brushes on the right side of the images, you'll see that for 60D and 7D the metal part is blown away (no details or very little), but the 70D retains all detail. In case they didn't change the lights orientation ( and if you check the reflection on the bottles they seems to be the same), that means some more dynamic range for the 70D.
> ...



Regarding #2, the lighting in the 70D shot is different. I had the same thought, that it looked like the 70D had FAR more DR than the 60D or any other 18mp APS-C canon camera. Upon closer inspection, there are just harsher highlights reflecting off all of those key surfaces than in the 70D shot. Kind of a bummer, that the test scene can change like that...really messes with the ability to compare shots, or for that matter (as you noted), photograph with the same exact exposure settings.


----------



## x-vision (Jul 26, 2013)

i2c said:


> What do you think?



Try the optyczne.pl comparison with the 100D. 
It seems that lightning and exposure are much more similar vs the other samples: 


70D samples and 100D samples

After comparing the ISO-1600 samples, the 70D doesn't seem to be any cleaner than the 100D. 
At ISO-12800, though, the 70D is slightly cleaner. 

And comparing the 6D samples (scroll down the page), I still see the same difference of 1.5-2 ISO stops
as between the 6D and the 18mp models.

So, overall, the 70D doesn't seem to be an improvement over the 18mp sensors in terms of ISO. 
ISOs 6400+ seem to be slightly cleaner - but that's about it. 

Oh, well. We can only hope that the 7DII will bring some real improvements.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jul 27, 2013)

x-vision said:


> ISOs 6400+ seem to be slightly cleaner - but that's about it.



Probably the 70d has an added *real* analog iso6400 mode, while on the current 18mp sensor iso3200 is the highest setting and everything above is pushed *digitally* which you can also do in raw post w/ better results.


----------



## jrista (Jul 27, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > ISOs 6400+ seem to be slightly cleaner - but that's about it.
> ...



Actually, only expanded ISO modes on Canon's are pushed digitally. ISO settings above 1600 on most of their cameras (with the exceptions probably being the 1DX, 5DIII, and 6D) still use an analog amplifier for 2000, 2500, 3200, 4000, 5000, and 6400. It's just that it is a downstream amp. So it occurs after the sensor does its read, meaning any noise picked up between actual read and ADC is amplified again with that second amp. For RAW, the "digital" amp (any expanded ISO setting, i.e. 12800 or 25600) is really just a metadata marker that tells the RAW editor to perform the digital boost...which as you stated could be done by you in software anyway.


----------



## blacksap (Jul 28, 2013)

I think the tests from the canon site are not a reliable tests, they look pretty good, but if the improvement is not good enough I think they would try to hide that fact, it would not be smart from them to give us reasons to start judging a camera that has not even made it yet to the market. 

After taking pictures with my MKIII i went back to my 60d, I felt comfortable enough, obviously I missed the MKIII autofocus system and the high iso performance, so if the 70d has a little improvement on these areas I will happily use an APSC camera more often, specially with the release of the 18-35 1.8 (sharp) and covers my wide range pretty good, paired with my 50 1.4 on crop I think with this two lenses I will be able to achieve pretty good results on most of my stills and video projects (wedding pictures and videos). 

Do you think that the dual pixel cmos will improve the AF system enough? will it be slightly slower than MKIII´s AF system? 

And the AF system on video mode looks cool, you could avoid using a follow focus some times, but I think that in the end we will use the manual focus more than we think, all of my lenses are not STM so...


----------



## jrista (Jul 28, 2013)

blacksap said:


> I think the tests from the canon site are not a reliable tests, they look pretty good, but if the improvement is not good enough I think they would try to hide that fact, it would not be smart from them to give us reasons to start judging a camera that has not even made it yet to the market.
> 
> After taking pictures with my MKIII i went back to my 60d, I felt comfortable enough, obviously I missed the MKIII autofocus system and the high iso performance, so if the 70d has a little improvement on these areas I will happily use an APSC camera more often, specially with the release of the 18-35 1.8 (sharp) and covers my wide range pretty good, paired with my 50 1.4 on crop I think with this two lenses I will be able to achieve pretty good results on most of my stills and video projects (wedding pictures and videos).
> 
> ...



The dual pixel AF system will only matter in live view mode, or when shooting video. If you continue to use the OVF, then the dedicated AF unit will still be used. For a lot of types of photography, you can only use the OFV, so the dual pixel system won't matter. 

It should be noted that Canon's more advanced AF systems, including the 19pt AF from the 7D and the 61pt AF from the 1DX/5DIII use dual line sensors in the dedicated AF unit. That improves precision as well as consistency (apparently, considerably). Tests by LensRentals.com indicate that Canon's 61pt AF system is as accurate as CDAF in Live View, which is as accurate as ideal manual focus. 

I would really just consider dual pixel FPPDAF to be just now starting to catch up to where dedicated AF units have been for a couple years at least. I don't know enough about Canon's approach to know if it could ultimately supplant dedicated AF units, thereby making high speed, consistent, usable for sports PDAF in mirrorless cameras a reality...only time will tell.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jul 28, 2013)

blacksap said:


> I think the tests from the canon site are not a reliable tests, they look pretty good, but if the improvement is not good enough I think they would try to hide that fact, it would not be smart from them to give us reasons to start judging a camera that has not even made it yet to the market.



They hide it in plain sight - Canon doesn't announce the 70d as a (significant) improvement in iso capability, and the two higher iso sample shots on their site are carefully selected to be very good nr'able.



jrista said:


> Actually, only expanded ISO modes on Canon's are pushed digitally. ISO settings above 1600 on most of their cameras (with the exceptions probably being the 1DX, 5DIII, and 6D) still use an analog amplifier for 2000, 2500, 3200, 4000, 5000, and 6400. It's just that it is a downstream amp. So it occurs after the sensor does its read, meaning any noise picked up between actual read and ADC is amplified again with that second amp. For RAW, the "digital" amp (any expanded ISO setting, i.e. 12800 or 25600) is really just a metadata marker that tells the RAW editor to perform the digital boost...which as you stated could be done by you in software anyway.



Interesting, and contrary to what the Magic Lantern guys have figured out - they state that iso6400 also has the same data as iso3200, just moved around just like the expanded iso modes: http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/ISO (see "http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/ISO").


----------



## jrista (Jul 28, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> blacksap said:
> 
> 
> > I think the tests from the canon site are not a reliable tests, they look pretty good, but if the improvement is not good enough I think they would try to hide that fact, it would not be smart from them to give us reasons to start judging a camera that has not even made it yet to the market.
> ...



Actually, from what ML states, it sounds like every single ISO setting has a bit of digital push/pull. They pointed out that their tests seem to indicate DXO's measurements are pretty close to the actual hardware ISO values. If that is true, the 5D II ISO 6400 is actually a real ISO 3990, with a digital push the rest of the way. That would also mean that ISO 3200 is actually real ISO 2133 with a digital push the rest of the way, and that ISO 100 is real ISO 73 with a digital push the rest of the way. Who knows why Canon does that...but I guess its not surprising...they have had oddball ISO for years with their push/pull approach for third-stop settings anyway. (Would really be nice to see Canon stop cheating the ISO curve and just use per-pixel amplification for every single ISO setting.)

Most of the other ISO tests I've seen demonstrate what appears to be real DR falloff from ISO 100 through 6400, then a heel as the curve flattens when you hit expanded ISO settings (which literally are just an exact 1-stop or 2-stop digital push from the highest native setting.) There was another analysis done on how Canon achieves their ISO settings a few years ago that describes both per-pixel amps, a downstream amp, and digital boost. Who knows exactly how the downstream amp works, or what impact it has on ISO settings that use it.


----------



## Marsu42 (Jul 28, 2013)

jrista said:


> Who knows exactly how the downstream amp works, or what impact it has on ISO settings that use it.



Hmmmyes, it's a bit frustrating to not know what's going on, my current consequence is (when shooting raw) only to use full iso stops and avoid 6400 on the 18mp crop sensor. But you're correct, the ml devs also figured out that using some of the oddball 1/3rd iso stops actually results in better iq for specific scenes, and this obviously means that there is more at play than we can figure out w/o the detailed hardware specs :-\


----------



## jrista (Jul 28, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Who knows exactly how the downstream amp works, or what impact it has on ISO settings that use it.
> ...



Aye, I ultimately came to the same conclusion, to use only the full stop settings, and fix in post. It was very interesting what ML said about highlight headroom loss and harsh highlight falloff...it doesn't look like it is a ton, maybe a third to half a stop for all full stop ISO settings...but still, that is a third to half stop. I am seriously considering slapping ML on my 7D once I upgrade to a newer body...sounds like they have done some pretty good stuff with ISO.

The big thing on everyone's lips these days is _DRivel_, but ever since I first read about how Canon handles its ISO settings (and that was several years ago), its really been the thing that irks me most about them. It has always felt like the cheapest, most cheated thing Canon does in their cameras, and really the thing I wish they would improve most. I don't see why it is so difficult to build a sensor that amplifies to each ISO setting directly...seems a lot of other sensor manufacturers do it.

Maybe a shift to layered sensor technology will force Canon to change things up at a low level...


----------



## Marsu42 (Jul 28, 2013)

jrista said:


> I don't see why it is so difficult to build a sensor that amplifies to each ISO setting directly...seems a lot of other sensor manufacturers do it.low level...



Isn't that what the 1dx sensor does, looking at the constant dr curve vs. other sensors zigzag? If so, maybe it's a budget thing, and a sensor with only so many discrete analog iso settings is easier to build and then the rest is done in the in-camera postprocessing chain. Plus the usual reason for "cheating" is marketing, i.e. hoping that people and non in-depth reviews won't stumble upon the fact that higher iso settings don't deliver the results you might expect from extrapolating.


----------



## jrista (Jul 28, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see why it is so difficult to build a sensor that amplifies to each ISO setting directly...seems a lot of other sensor manufacturers do it.low level...
> ...



I think the 1D X still does the push/pull thing, its just far more refined and accurate, less detrimental. There was one test where you could see there were slight differences in each third stop setting, but to a degree far far less than any other Canon camera. That fits what people say about the 1D line...it has a considerable amount of extra polish and shine that the other cameras don't. I kind of wish that Canon would apply more polish and shine to the entire pro line. I don't think they are going to lose many people by doing so...so many people want a 1D X and simply cannot afford it...they effectively buy the most expensive they can afford (usually the 5D line.) I guess we'll see what Canon does with the 7D II when it comes out...maybe it will be polished a bit more.


----------



## blacksap (Jul 29, 2013)

jrista said:


> blacksap said:
> 
> 
> > I think the tests from the canon site are not a reliable tests, they look pretty good, but if the improvement is not good enough I think they would try to hide that fact, it would not be smart from them to give us reasons to start judging a camera that has not even made it yet to the market.
> ...




thank you for your explanation!!! now everything is clearer for me, and it does sound pretty neat!!

So who´s buying the 70d if the ISO performance is the same as 60d´s (or a small improvement)?


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 29, 2013)

blacksap said:


> So who´s buying the 70d if the ISO performance is the same as 60d´s (or a small improvement)?



The 5DIII was only a small improvement over the 5DII in terms of ISO performance. I think a few people bought 5DIIIs. :


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## Marsu42 (Jul 29, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> blacksap said:
> 
> 
> > So who´s buying the 70d if the ISO performance is the same as 60d´s (or a small improvement)?
> ...



Fair enough, but afaik the main concern with the 5d2 was the mediocre af performance, while with the 18mp crop sensor it's iso - so improving on the main shortcoming would be a good idea to make people upgrade from the previous generation. 

Canon obviously opted for another thing, introducing a new technology which is also fine even if the dual pixel af isn't for me, but for iso the logical upgrade is still a ff and not a newer gen crop at least until the 7d2 is here.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 29, 2013)

blacksap said:


> So who´s buying the 70d if the ISO performance is the same as 60d´s (or a small improvement)?



Logical answer. Nobody is buying it yet

Logical answer no.2. People who have an older body than the 60D may buy the 70D

Logical answer no.3. People who benefit from the other improvements may buy the 70D


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 29, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > blacksap said:
> ...



The point is, the 5DIII didn't really improve IQ, it improved _other stuff_. The 70D is similar. Whether that other stuff is important enough to induce an upgrade is a personal decision. 

I do think the 5DII -> 5DIII is a bigger jump than 60D -> 70D, but generally the longer the release cycle, the more significant the changes. Of course, what Canon really wants you to do is jump lines. Their strategy in recent years is consistent with that - the 60D wasn't really a 50D upgrade, that's the 7D.


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## pedro (Jul 29, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> blacksap said:
> 
> 
> > So who´s buying the 70d if the ISO performance is the same as 60d´s (or a small improvement)?
> ...



Well, in my case the 5Diii was a huge improvement over the 30D 8)


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## whothafunk (Jul 29, 2013)

ill probably make the jump from 550D to 70D. rubbery grip unglued everywhere on my 550D, its too small, and i need FPS, better AF and "better" ISO performance, even if only by small margin. i sometimes find 12800 not enough for indoor sports. some gyms are like dungeons.

i cannot wait for 7D2, and it will most probably be out of my budget area.


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## rpt (Jul 29, 2013)

pedro said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > blacksap said:
> ...


+1
My jump was from the 300D to the 5D3. Absolutely fantastic.


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## johnhenry (Jul 29, 2013)

It would need some dramatic retooling of the sensor. Most gains of ISO are at the expense of more noise. You can play around in camera with binning etc but shirking pixel size means you need to add amplification to gain ISO

I find when I absolutely NEED better light gathering, I reach for my:

Monopod or tripod.

28mm f/2.0 West German Zeiss C/y mount with an adapter

85mm f/1.2 50th Anniversary Zeiss Planer with adapter

200mm f/1.8 Canon USM


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## David Hull (Jul 29, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> blacksap said:
> 
> 
> > So who´s buying the 70d if the ISO performance is the same as 60d´s (or a small improvement)?
> ...



Yep... I fall into that group. I bought it (after the price dropped a bit) to get the better AF system, having had a 5DII for several years and knowing that it did an adequate job for what I needed to do. In other words since the horrible banding and inadequate DR that the 5DII was known to have ( ;-) ) had never really been a problem, I figured it would not be one in the 5DIII either. 

A tad off topic, but worth mentioning I think, is how much better the metering seems to be in the 5DIII (from the 5DII) when I use it with flash. I think that the 5DIII / 600RT EX works about as well as any Nikon system I have ever used.


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## x-vision (Jul 29, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Of course, what Canon really wants you to do is jump lines.



Agree completely. 

Canon obviously considers the image quality of their crop cameras to be good enough.
Hence, they don't seem to be making much effort to improve it.

For better image quality, you are indeed invited you to jump lines ... by spending more . 

Looking forward, I'm convinced that the 7DII will follow this pattern as well. 
Unlike the 7D, the 7DII will use a different sensor than the rest of the crop models, IMO. 
So, for better image quality in a crop camera, we'll all be invited to spend more on the 7DII - that is, to jump lines.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 29, 2013)

x-vision said:


> Unlike the 7D, the 7DII will use a different sensor than the rest of the crop models, IMO.
> So, for better image quality in a crop camera, we'll all be invited to spend more on the 7DII - that is, to jump lines.



The 7D had a new/different sensor than the rest of the crop bodies when it launched. That sensor was then used in the T2i/550D, then the 60D, etc. 

Even so, I wouldn't expect much better IQ in a 7DII. It'll likely have 24 MP and IQ not all that much better than the current 18 MP APS-C or the 70D's sensor (or not really better at all). But it'll have better AF, likely 10 fps, maybe they'll unveil a new metering sensor with more zones (not the 1D X's), etc. 

If you want _substantially_ better IQ, Canon wants you to buy a FF camera.


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## x-vision (Jul 29, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> ... I wouldn't expect much better IQ in a 7DII.



Canon could keep the same number of megapixels on the 7DII, while tweaking ISO/noise performance.
This will allow ISO/noise on the 7DII to be somewhere in the middle between the 70D/Rebels and the FF models. 
So, still an improvement over the rest of the crop cameras - and yet not on the same level as FF.

We'll see. That's what I'm hoping for, at least.



> If you want _substantially_ better IQ, Canon wants you to buy a FF camera.



Agree. FF needs to remain the IQ king. They can risk that.


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## Cariboucoach (Jul 29, 2013)

blacksap said:


> So who´s buying the 70d if the ISO performance is the same as 60d´s (or a small improvement)?



That would most likely be me. As the owner of an aging 40D, I would like to add video, some more pixels, and increased ISO from the 3200 max I have now. Even if the IQ isn't much better than the 60D, it is still better than the IQ of the 40D.

Budget will probably keep the 7D II out of reach. FF is also out of the question due to the added expense of getting new lenses, and a speedlite.


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## pedro (Jul 29, 2013)

One situation that sure has changed since 7D came out is, that FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive element because of range (birders, etc) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 29, 2013)

pedro said:


> One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...



With that in mind, one might expect a 7DII priced lower than the 6D...and with a reduced feature set to go along with that price. Still has to differentiate from the 70D, but fps and more MP would cover most of that.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 30, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...
> ...



Or it goes the other way and the 7D2 is more like a mini 1DX. Integrated grip. RT. Dual slots. 
An enhanced specification dual pixel focus system?


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## jrista (Jul 30, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...
> ...



I would think a better AF system would probably also be part of the differentiation. More FPS and better AF along with a competitive increase in MP would be the ideal differentiation to me. I don't think an integrated grip or better weather sealing or 1D X style buttons or anything like that are necessary to make an appropriate differentiation. The 19pt AF system definitely has its issues, though...and I would happily skip the 7D II if it ended up with the same 19pt system the original 7D had. It misfocuses too many times in any given sequence, roughly negating the additional 2fps lead it has over the 5D III. 

It doesn't necessarily need to get the 61pt AF system, but something of the same precision, consistency, and accuracy of the 5D III's system would be a key differentiator for reach-hungry shooters looking for a companion to their FF.


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 30, 2013)

jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > pedro said:
> ...



Yeah the 7D2 really needs to get the 5D3 AF. It does AI servo for surfing amazingly well but for soccer and such it seems closer to me to a 50D than a 1 series for sure. Single shot precision isn't bad, but it's actually not even quite to 5D2 levels and certainly not 5D3, so it's hardly all that amazing either.

I'd really think it would get more or less 5D3 AF (maybe the outer row of points won't fit?). You'd hope they didn't lock out the spot AF and zone AF from the 70D because they plan to re-use full 7D AF in the 7D2 again though....

I can't see the 7D2 getting an integrated grip (and I think that would cause a lot of complaining).


----------



## LetTheRightLensIn (Jul 30, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> pedro said:
> 
> 
> > One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...
> ...



No way, this many years later and a few extra MP (considering the 70D density really is pretty high already) anda couple extra fps? I don't see that at all, they will get their goose cooked. It's gotta add 5D3-type AF and other stuff to the mix. Don't forget this body will also expected to see for like 2-4 more years!


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 30, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> No way, this many years later and a few extra MP (considering the 70D density really is pretty high already) anda couple extra fps? I don't see that at all, they will get their goose cooked. It's gotta add 5D3-type AF and other stuff to the mix. Don't forget this body will also expected to see for like 2-4 more years!



Don't underestimate Canon's ability and willingness to handicap cameras.  24 MP with Dual Pixel CMOS AF (so they can later pass the 20 MP version to the Rebel/xxxD line and the M, then the 24 MP to the 80D), better AF but not 5DIII/1D X (say 31 AF points, each column on the 7D AF with an extra top/bottom point, but no more columns). Spot and Zone AF (yes, Virginia, they really left those out of the 70D so, like Santa Claus, they could give them back with the 7DII). Extras like direct RF control of the -RT Speedlites (a cool, hype-able new feature that oh-by-the-way would boost Speedlite sales). Just sayin'...


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## jrista (Jul 30, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > No way, this many years later and a few extra MP (considering the 70D density really is pretty high already) anda couple extra fps? I don't see that at all, they will get their goose cooked. It's gotta add 5D3-type AF and other stuff to the mix. Don't forget this body will also expected to see for like 2-4 more years!
> ...



*sigh* Sometimes I hate it when your right... (Of course, you, owning the top of the line 1D X, have it all already! )



neuroanatomist said:


> 24 MP with Dual Pixel CMOS AF (so they can later pass the 20 MP version to the Rebel/xxxD line and the M, then the 24 MP to the 80D), better AF but not 5DIII/1D X (say 31 AF points, each column on the 7D AF with an extra top/bottom point, but no more columns). Spot and Zone AF (yes, Virginia, they really left those out of the 70D so, like Santa Claus, they could give them back with the 7DII). Extras like direct RF control of the -RT Speedlites (a cool, hype-able new feature that oh-by-the-way would boost Speedlite sales). Just sayin'...



If it is 31pt AF that functions (precision, accuracy, consistency, speed) like the 5D III's 61pt AF, then I would be happy with that. I guess I would prefer a full high density reticulated AF system...I've found the 7D points, while large, still seem to have problems at the periphery of any given point (outside the box) and when the subject is directly between points. Tighter point spacing would help, I think. I'd love it if such a hypothetical 31pt system had the same kind of ultra high precision center vertical column of points like the 61pt system as well...but maybe that is asking Canon for too much.

(Although, given my more recent troubles with the 7Ds AF system...I am beginning to think it is just time to move to the 5D III and get into the FF game. The higher SNR and more accurate AF, even if it has lower spatial resolution than the 7D, should still do wonders for IQ... In which case, I really couldn't care less what the 7D II gets...)


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## pj1974 (Jul 30, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> LetTheRightLensIn said:
> 
> 
> > No way, this many years later and a few extra MP (considering the 70D density really is pretty high already) anda couple extra fps? I don't see that at all, they will get their goose cooked. It's gotta add 5D3-type AF and other stuff to the mix. Don't forget this body will also expected to see for like 2-4 more years!
> ...



Indeed, Canon has a history where it's handicapped cameras, particularly via firmware limitations, and/or some improvements that could have been incorporated (at not too much cost). Some examples spring to mind: 400D, 30D, 60D, etc. 

The 7D came out and I thought Canon were being 'generous' with the feature list - and I still think they were. I love my 7D - though I'm aware there could have been some improvements made.... but I chose it early - and haven't looked back.

I do wonder if the 'groundbreaking' rumours we started hearing some time ago that would be in the 7DmkII is actually the dual pixel AF of the 70D? (ie if 'the rumour spreaders' had the Canon body model name / number wrong?)

The 70D's ISO ability looks close, and probably a bit superior to Canon's previous APS-C 18MP sensors. But it's not 'ground-breakingly' better. I would be surprised if there is a significantly better new sensor (still APS-C) in the 7DmkII (which I believe is already close to final production). I do expect the 7DmkII to maybe have a different sensor to the 70D. If it does, I hope it's somewhat better on ISO than the 7D. (I don't need more than 18MP btw).

I believe the main features separating the 7DmkII - from both the 7D and 70D - will include:
- feature set, such as GPS, wireless, remote flash control
- FPS (eg 10?)
- build quality & shutter durability
- improved optical AF (as the 70D has the 7D's AF, the 7DmkII will have improvements in that space)
- an articulated screen (the 7D's is 'fixed')
- probably improved LiveView AF too.... ie even faster, better implemented dual pixel AF than the 70D has

Looking forward to what the 7DmkII will be. I must say I'm impressed with what Canon has done with the 70D, and I will probably go to a store and try one (instore) out of curiousity!

Paul


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## Marsu42 (Jul 30, 2013)

Oh, look, it's good ol' Paul in [CR] dream land :-> (no, really, I think your posts are among the most valuable here):



pj1974 said:


> - feature set, such as GPS, wireless, remote flash control



... my 2ct: *built-in rt controller* won't happen unless Yongnuo has a built-in radio speedlite system (not yet) and even then Canon would have to forced at gunpoint to give up $500 sales for a 600rt as a master. The idea is that enthusiasts are ok with optical fallback control via the pop up flash, and if you venture further into flash photography you just have to cough up the $$$ to be able to use the nice 600rt display or the in-camera rt control rather than some awkward 3rd party external controller.

I also don't see *gps* in a pro/sturdy body, of course it could be done but it's rather an amateur feature given the advantages of external loggers and Canon would admit they'd just left out the 6d flash and gps from the 70d for marketing and no real tech reason.



pj1974 said:


> - as the 70D has the 7D's AF, the 7DmkII will have improvements in that space



... not quite, this is a spec sheet fallacy: the *70d af system* has just the _same number of af points_, knowing Canon I doubt they'll confuse simple xxd customers with too much customization in the fw plus lacking a dedicated af processor it might well be the 70d is slower & has worse tracking than the 7d1!



pj1974 said:


> - an articulated screen (the 7D's is 'fixed')



... but that would half the number of potential 7d2 customers after years of dogmatism that a *swivel screen* isn't "pro", cannot be properly sealed and will break off the camera just by looking at it :-> ... as a 60d owner though, I know how handy that is for video, tripod & awkward angles.


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## whothafunk (Jul 30, 2013)

how do you know 70D lacks dedicated AF processor? canon didnt say that 70D doesnt have one, neither that it does. when 7D was announced, they didnt mention dedicated AF processor either, noone knew it has one until it was released


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 30, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> how do you know 70D lacks dedicated AF processor? canon didnt say they 70D doesnt have it, neither that it does. when 7D was announced, they didnt mention dedicated AF processor either, _*noone knew it has one until it was released*_



The most valid thing I've read on this thread so far.

Nobody knows until it is released.


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## Chosenbydestiny (Jul 30, 2013)

What I don't get is why it would need a dedicated processor when the digic 5+ is said to be 17x faster than digic 4. Still very much noticeably faster than dual digic 4. I know it's more megapixels, but wouldn't that at least shoulder the performance loss from lacking a dedicated processor?


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## Marsu42 (Jul 30, 2013)

Chosenbydestiny said:


> What I don't get is why it would need a dedicated processor when the digic 5+ is said to be 17x faster than digic 4. Still very much noticeably faster than dual digic 4. I know it's more megapixels, but wouldn't that at least shoulder the performance loss from lacking a dedicated processor?



You're all correct - we don't know for sure, but then again this is a rumor forum :->

The smaller 70d size vs. 7d1 might indicate that they've only got one cpu on the pcb ... but I personally also think that the digic5 could take the af load, question is if the fw is meant to use it, after all as written above Canon has a history of crippling lesser camera bodies. In every case I'm doubtful if the fw has as many tracking options as the 7d1, but we'll see...


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 30, 2013)

Chosenbydestiny said:


> What I don't get is why it would need a dedicated processor when the digic 5+ is said to be 17x faster than digic 4. Still very much noticeably faster than dual digic 4. I know it's more megapixels, but wouldn't that at least shoulder the performance loss from lacking a dedicated processor?



Faster than dual digic 4 perhaps, but on the 7D the dual digics process the data from the image chip. 

There is a third, seperate processor that deals exclusively with AF. 

It is not clear if the 70D has or needs this. Certainly the 5D3 has a seperate (although unspecified, _unless anybody can cast some light on it_) processor exclusively for AF, and it also has a main digic 5+ image processor. Granted it's a much more sophisticated AF system, but it hints that a digic 5+ on it's own wasn't sufficient.

It's all conjecture. But when it comes to AF performance, it rather appears that no matter the image processing, a seperate AF processor is desirable.


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## whothafunk (Jul 30, 2013)

the 5D3 does have a dedicated AF processor, like the 7D and the 1Dx. thats why these cameras have superior AF.

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_canon_eos_5d_mark_iii.do

if you expand the AF section, about half way down:


> Achieving this speed and accuracy in the AF algorithm requires a large amount of focus data to be processed quickly. This has been done by the use of distributed processing where both a dedicated AF processor and a camera CPU process data. The dedicated AF processor is four times faster than the one found in the EOS-1D Mark IV.


'a camera CPU' must refer to the sole DIGIC5+.


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## tron (Jul 30, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> the 5D3 does have a dedicated AF processor, like the 7D and the 1Dx. thats why these cameras have superior AF.
> 
> http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_canon_eos_5d_mark_iii.do
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. Really interesting info although some of it seems , let's say: a little "optimistic"


> The camera also features a robust dust-proof and drip-proof construction, where body panels interlock rather than adjoin, and all seams, buttons and dials are provided with secure rubber sealing. The protection provided by the design and sealing is equivalent to that of the EOS-1N film camera; the weather-sealing standard by which other professional cameras were judged.


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## carlosmeldano (Jul 30, 2013)

whothafunk said:


> the 5D3 does have a dedicated AF processor, like the 7D and the 1Dx. thats why these cameras have superior AF.



the 70D indeed has at least one dedicated AF processor... for CMOS AF.

check the interview here: http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2013/eos_70d_interview_with_developers.shtml, page 4, top of right column.

_Miyanari: “With the AF signal of Dual Pixel CMOS AF, there was twice the amount of information as the number of effective pixels that lined the sensor. *This process could be performed with just the imaging processor; however, we believed it would be too much to ask, so a dedicated IC was developed. *By establishing an IC for the role of preparation so the imaging processor could process one after the other, high-speed, optimized processing was made possible."
_

so, the digic 5+ is capable of handling such that computing capacity, I don't think that a separate AF processor should be used, but if they use one for CMOS AF, they might applied the other for the conventional AF.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 30, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Oh, look, it's good ol' Paul in [CR] dream land :-> (no, really, I think your posts are among the most valuable here):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, except in the days before thr -RT system came out, there was only optical control...while Canon started Master capability with the popup flash in the 7D, they rolled it down to the xxD line and eventually put capability in a Rebel body. 

I bet we'll see RT master in the 7DII...


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## shtfmeister (Jul 30, 2013)

jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > pedro said:
> ...



before you hate on the 19pt auto focus to much which lenses are you using
read this http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-3a-canon-lenses


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## Marsu42 (Jul 31, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> I bet we'll see RT master in the 7DII...



I'll bookmark this and remind you  ... I'm sure Canon will add rt master capability sometime, but I bet this won't be the sports/high-fps 7d2 (can your flash do 10fps?) but the 5d4 or the next high-mp premium 1d.

Think of the profit they make: the st-e3 controller sells for ~€300, but most likely consists of parts that you can buy for less than €30 in the electronics discount shop next door :-o


----------



## jrista (Jul 31, 2013)

shtfmeister said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



LOL. Its not the lens. I am using the EF 600mm f/4 L IS II...can't get much better than that.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 31, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Think of the profit they make: the st-e3 controller sells for ~€300, but most likely consists of parts that you can buy for less than €30 in the electronics discount shop next door :-o



That's ok - they'll sell a lot more 7DIIs than ST-E3s, so they'll just build that profit into the 7DII price...


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## pj1974 (Jul 31, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Oh, look, it's good ol' Paul in [CR] dream land :-> (no, really, I think your posts are among the most valuable here):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Marsu42... I appreciate yr reply and overall posts too.

1. I think that RT flash control *will* be incorporated in the 7DmkII (not just 'hoping'). To me it seems a logical step, as master flash control also used / introduced to APS-C via the 7D - as neuro also noted. Those in the market for a 7DmkII would possibly be 'tempted' with suitable / matched flashes.

2. While GPS wasn't incorporated in some more 'pro' bodies - and I'm aware some countries or locations restrict certain cameras and/or with GPS devices - I think that the 7D isn't "pro" enough to be affected. Time will tell.. I see your point on this, though. GPS not a huge issue for me either way (as long as I can switch toggle between on / off easily to save battery power)

3. AF - There was wording from Canon (can't find it now, as I'm in a break at work) that indicated that the 70D's AF was the 'AF system' borrowed from 7D. Not 'just' the 19 (cross type) AF points. Then again, it didn't specify it was the 'whole AF system'. The 7D has some additional AF settings over the 70D (eg AF point assist).

I believe much or the hardware and the algorithms are the same as the 7D (including the 70D appearing to have a dedicated AF processor - like the 7D does - as it appears from some posts). But yes, I expect there may be some differences. It would be good if the 70D actually has some improvements - eg maybe tweaked algorithms to increase AF accuracy & consistency shot to shot when AF is 'close'.

Another website did extensive testing of 7D's AF accuracy / consistency - in both Optical (Phase) & Live View. The 7D was rated as good & a definite improvement over the XXD line, but not as consistent as 5DmkIII or 1DX. I hope the 7DmkII gains something similar in this regard to the 5DmkIII - and perhaps a few extra AF points - as was suggested - an extra top / bottom AF pt for each column... (me like!)

I must say after learning and setting the 7D's AF for certain scenarios, I've captured many great shots - including BIF with my 7D that I couldn't get with any other Canon APS-C bodies before it. I think improved AF *is * going to be a feature of 7DmkII.

4. Swivel screen - I enjoy macro photography a lot, and an articulated screen can be invaluable here, especially when taking photos at ground level. Also, at times for events / crowds / creativity - an articulated screen can be so useful (as well as for video, though I don't do much video at all).
Also, if they have a similar menu as the 7D (but with touch-screen possibilities, like the 70D seems to have implemented well) - that would be nice! 

5. Additionally, I hope they stick with the 3 custom modes on the dial. We really can get rid of any 'auto' modes... please! Maybe for attracting 'entry level users' it will stay there, but the 'creative auto' it really can go (and there is no need for any 'scene modes') and instead we get an additional 1 or 2 custom modes on the dial... I would LOVE 5 custom options. I can see and understand the 70D is targetted differently with more 'beginner' auto / help options to the 7D.

Let's see....

Paul


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## Marsu42 (Jul 31, 2013)

pj1974 said:


> 1. I think that RT flash control *will* be incorporated in the 7DmkII (not just 'hoping').



Ok, now I'm really keen to see if I was too doubtful of Canon (who? me?) :->



pj1974 said:


> Another website did extensive testing of 7D's AF accuracy / consistency



Imho more precison/consistency in the 7d2 is a must, I know the lensrentals reviews, and they write the 6d/5d2 af type doesn't use the enhanced precision of Canon's latest lenses like the 70-300L and 24-70L2, so to boost sales and torpedo 3rd party manufacturers it's likely Canon will do something about it.



pj1974 said:


> 4. Swivel screen - I enjoy macro photography a lot, and an articulated screen can be invaluable here, especially when taking photos at ground level.



I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon _every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud_ in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.


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## rpt (Jul 31, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon _every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud_ in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.


+1
And I understand there could be a possible weatherproofing nightmare for the design and manufacturing departments in Canon. I just wish that could be an option...


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## jrista (Jul 31, 2013)

rpt said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon _every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud_ in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.
> ...



I wonder if they could make the screen wireless, using some kind of near field communications to avoid the normal energy drain of wireless devices. They could then just attach the screen via a hinge (maybe a replaceable one in case it breaks) without actually having to compromise weather sealing.


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## rpt (Jul 31, 2013)

jrista said:


> rpt said:
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> > Marsu42 said:
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Darn it! Now I will have to wait for the 7D3


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## Skirball (Jul 31, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > 1. I think that RT flash control *will* be incorporated in the 7DmkII (not just 'hoping').
> ...


[/quote]

+1 to the will be incorporated group. It's the next logical step in flash, which by itself says nothing, but adding RF control of flashes to the camera pigeon holes the consumer into buying Canon RF flashes; which at the moment consists of a $600 flash. Win for Canon. They won't care about loss of ST-E3 sales when people are plunking down $2k+ for 7DIIs.


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## Skirball (Jul 31, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > 1. I think that RT flash control *will* be incorporated in the 7DmkII (not just 'hoping').
> ...



+1 to the will be incorporated group. It's the next logical step in flash, which by itself says nothing, but adding RF control of flashes to the camera pigeon holes the consumer into buying Canon RF flashes; which at the moment consists of a $600 flash. Win for Canon. They won't care about loss of ST-E3 sales when people are plunking down $2k+ for 7DIIs and a couple more $k for a fleet of flashes.


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## jrista (Jul 31, 2013)

rpt said:


> jrista said:
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Ha! Yeah, I guess its unlikely such an innovation would actually find its way into the 7D II, given its already in field testing. Oh well....it would have been a pretty cool feature.


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## tron (Jul 31, 2013)

jrista said:


> rpt said:
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> > jrista said:
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Well, I myself prefer a camera without a swivel screen (at least for the 99% of the time).

BUT, I understand why someone would need this. May I suggest this thread ? 

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=15866.0

I know it is probably too much for just camera with a swivel screen but maybe it could be of help for the cases where a swivel screen is an absolute must...


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## jrista (Jul 31, 2013)

tron said:


> jrista said:
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Hah, nice. I actually installed Lightroom 4.4 on my Microsoft Surface Pro, so I can tether it out in the field. Works either as a big screen for view camera-esque functionality for landscapes, or a nice big highly detailed screen for macro work (of which I am still exploring...I really need to get a macro rail, and maybe some kind of mounting arm like in the link you shared). I will say, it is really nice being able to use LR4.4 in the field on a high res 1080p screen...best thing Microsoft ever did!


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## Marsu42 (Jul 31, 2013)

jrista said:


> Hah, nice. I actually installed Lightroom 4.4 on my Microsoft Surface Pro, so I can tether it out in the field.



Problem is: Magic Lantern in-camera beats any tethering, or I'd carry around my laptop for tethering... that's why want a swivel screen & ml :-\


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## jrista (Jul 31, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Hah, nice. I actually installed Lightroom 4.4 on my Microsoft Surface Pro, so I can tether it out in the field.
> ...



How can ML beat a 10.6" high density screen?


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## Marsu42 (Jul 31, 2013)

jrista said:


> Marsu42 said:
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By weight, size and price :-> but we're probably talking of different usage scenarios here: All I'd want to do with tethered shooting (with a cable mind you, wifi for wildlife is another thing) is focus stacking, intervalometer and generally automating the camera - all which I can do by using ml as it is or scripting it or adding C code.


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## pj1974 (Aug 1, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> pj1974 said:
> 
> 
> > 4. Swivel screen - I enjoy macro photography a lot, and an articulated screen can be invaluable here, especially when taking photos at ground level.
> ...





Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
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> > Marsu42 said:
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Yes, indeed horses for courses. I see a swivel screen as a different level of usability and application than any tethering or 'remote control' of a DSLR. There are so many times I want to take photos and not have to tether or set up any external device. There are also times when I don't use a tripod, and a swivel screen is helpful.

In my initial post (seen copied at the top of this post) about hoping that the 7DmkII would get a full articulated screen (aka 'swivel screen') - just like the 70D has, was because I see this as a huge benefit at times (though not 'all times'), and I believe that with careful engineering / production a sturdy, functional and durable screen can be part of a 'pro' or 'semi-pro' body, and thus not of any detriment.

I think the 70D is a well spec'd body for Canon's xxD line (having features, eg AF, FPS, AFMA, etc that I believe all former Canon xxD bodies should have had). And with the 70D now having dual pixel LiveView AF, that's a real added bonus.

Looking forward to a 7DmkII with even better specs than the 70D... and hopefully an articulated screen which will assist me in getting some shots that are more difficult without.

Cheers

Paul


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## rpt (Aug 1, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> jrista said:
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Marsu42, are you using ML on your 60D? I am waiting for their next release of the 5D3 code set.


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