# Nikon FF mirrorless marketing leak - new 8/5



## ahsanford (Aug 5, 2018)

Thar she blows...

https://photorumors.com/2018/08/05/...-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-full-frame-camera/


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## sebasan (Aug 5, 2018)

I like the girl a lot


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## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2018)

Still don't get why all teasers tend to have shots of what appears to be a not-small standard zoom.

If you are going to go thin, play it to the hilt: put a smaller lens on it.

- A


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## zim (Aug 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Still don't get why all teasers tend to have shots of what appears to be a not-small standard zoom.
> 
> If you are going to go thin, play it to the hilt: put a smaller lens on it.
> 
> - A


because the only people going on and on about small are forum warriors not photographers?


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## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2018)

zim said:


> because the only people going on and on about small are forum warriors not photographers?



No, but they should sell why it's worth the trouble, investment, etc. As mirrorless is hard to turn into an elevator pitch in a single photo, the logical move is to as simply as possible highlight what the fuss was about.

One way to do that would be to highlight its smaller size -- that's what Sony did in 2013 when the A7 was outed:



But it doesn't have to be a small sell. The other way would be highlight something their FX mount cameras cannot do: if an f/0.9 lens truly exists for this camera, show it off and get people drooling.

But to put what looks like a 24-105 f/4 on there implies 'welcome to our new camera platform and it has stuff you'd expect a camera platform to have'. Fine message, but I sure as hell wouldn't lead with that. Sell why the new system is something you should be fired up about.

- A
​


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## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2018)

To be clear, this isn't mockery on my part. I very much want this Nikon platform to succeed. I'm not sure Nikon can take another market fail like the Nikon 1 platform. 

I'd prefer they remain competitive and threatening to Canon to force them (in turn) to keep delivering better products for us.

- A


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## Bennymiata (Aug 6, 2018)

I think this new Nikon looks pretty good.
A slim body with a DSLR grip on it.
Looks more comfortable than the Sony 7's, but I hope for their sake that they didn't make the mistake of trying to put the lens too close to the grip.My fat fingers keep getting caught on Sonys.
I bet the Canon engineers are looking very closely at this, mind you, it would probably be too late for Canon to make any drastic changes to the body design.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 6, 2018)

Bennymiata said:


> I think this new Nikon looks pretty good.
> A slim body with a DSLR grip on it.
> Looks more comfortable than the Sony 7's, but I hope for their sake that they didn't make the mistake of trying to put the lens too close to the grip.My fat fingers keep getting caught on Sonys.
> I bet the Canon engineers are looking very closely at this, mind you, it would probably be too late for Canon to make any drastic changes to the body design.



The lens looks awfully close to the grip. Notice that even the model's slim fingers are resting on the front of the grip and not around it. I think the fingers wrapped around the lens take up all the space.


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## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2018)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> The lens looks awfully close to the grip. Notice that even the model's slim fingers are resting on the front of the grip and not around it. I think the fingers wrapped around the lens take up all the space.



Yep, the cardboard mockups of this looked like this as well. How much finger room will remain when an f/2.8 zoom or f/1.4 prime gets brought to bear?

- A


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## andrei1989 (Aug 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Yep, the cardboard mockups of this looked like this as well. How much finger room will remain when an f/2.8 zoom or f/1.4 prime gets brought to bear?
> 
> - A


notice that she has fingers from both hands in that space between grip and lens
also, a 2.8 zoom wouldn't be much thicker than the mount diameter, would it?


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## Aglet (Aug 6, 2018)

First out kit lens for that body may not be ML optimized... What's in the photo could just be an existing optical design with a lengthened mount-barrel to save time and development cost for body introduction or just a simple mock-up for the sake of the commercial image. Looks like the lens has 2 telescoping barrels from the front so that may be quite a zoom ratio as well?..

LL's "mirrorless war" video from a few days ago if it was missed:


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## Aglet (Aug 6, 2018)

so that mount size estimate






looks like it could allow for ~ 48 x 32mm sensor + IBIS.

Fuji's is 44 x 33mm.

should be a little less than 20, maybe 18mm of space for fingers between grip and mount OD. I should be comfortable getting my knuckles in there.
More worried about my wallet tho.


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## Mikehit (Aug 6, 2018)

This has appeared on the net


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## Meatcurry (Aug 6, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Thar she’s blows...
> 
> https://photorumors.com/2018/08/05/...-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-full-frame-camera/
> 
> ...


Removable EVF?


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## Mikehit (Aug 6, 2018)

I think so.


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## jolyonralph (Aug 6, 2018)

Just because a body can take smaller/lighter lenses doesn't mean all lenses have to be smaller/lighter. You may not get the weight/size advantage with, for example, a 24-70 f/2.8 zoom but you still get the weight saving with the lighter body so it's still a win even with the standard zooms. Also, depending on the lens design moving the lens closer to the sensor helps with balance on heavier lenses. If your solution for balance on a heavier lens is to rely on a heavier body then you're not dealing with the problem properly


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## ahsanford (Aug 6, 2018)

Meatcurry said:


> Removable EVF?



The eyepiece, possibly, but that top housing that sits where the pentaprism normally would is all but surely an integral part of the body (consider: the hotshoe is on top of that, so it will take load). To make that modular in what I presume is a sealed body would be quite a trick.

- A


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## Meatcurry (Aug 7, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> The eyepiece, possibly, but that top housing that sits where the pentaprism normally would is all but surely an integral part of the body (consider: the hotshoe is on top of that, so it will take load). To make that modular in what I presume is a sealed body would be quite a trick.
> 
> - A


Well i think the Fuji GFX 50 has a removable EVF using the hot shoe on the camera and has another hot shoe on the EVF, so I guess its possible. It just looks removeable


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## fullstop (Aug 7, 2018)

less and less interested in Nikon's FF MILC/s should they really come in such large body size/s ... smaller than an FF DSLR, but still significantly larger than Sony A7 III ...






and might even be a bit larger according to this guesstimate:






@ahsanford the zoom should be the rumored Nikon Z-mount 24-70/4. No idea, why a) they use a dual cam design for tubus [i don't like the wobbling and normally a sure sign for a very low grade consumer lens) AND YET b) the lens still being this large.

Looks like there is Sony FE air-filled tubus at rear end of lens!? Or an "elegant F-mount nozzle"  on camera?


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## ahsanford (Aug 7, 2018)

fullstop said:


> Looks like there is Sony FE air-filled tubus at rear end of lens!? Or an "elegant F-mount nozzle"  on camera?



Yeah, It looks odd as it appears (to my eyes) to be slightly bigger diameter than the main barrel of the lens. No idea why they did that. 

- A


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## fullstop (Aug 7, 2018)

rear part of lens/nozzle also looks different on the 2 images. Maybe only different perspective, but not sure. Or different lenses?


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## ahsanford (Aug 7, 2018)

Lest I forget, Nikon has dedicated aperture rings on their lenses. Perhaps they've done something nutty/brave/interesting with that same real estate on their new native mount glass:

If you know your thin mount lens will have some added real estate in an area that FF SLR lens would never have, what would you do with it? _Put in a mirrorless-specific functionality. _

Perhaps it's a pull ring or deliberately shaped surface you can interact with. Tug on the ring and you get 10x zoom for manual focusing until you let


Perhaps it's the control wheel to change your 'HUD' EVF views without having to painstaking toggle / cycle through things with a single button push?
- A


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## fullstop (Aug 7, 2018)

a multi-functional lens mount ring? Hardly anything new. Even some Canon (Powershots) got one. I like it and would love to have it on EOS M50 and on my future FF MILC.


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## BillB (Aug 7, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> No, but they should sell why it's worth the trouble, investment, etc. As mirrorless is hard to turn into an elevator pitch in a single photo, the logical move is to as simply as possible highlight what the fuss was about.
> 
> One way to do that would be to highlight its smaller size -- that's what Sony did in 2013 when the A7 was outed:
> 
> ...



Nikon has to sell small, but they also have to sell the idea that the new mirrorless is a serious camera that will have serious lenses, which will be worth the investment. Lots of new glass in the new mount is part of the story.


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2018)

BillB said:


> Nikon has to sell small, but they also have to sell the idea that the new mirrorless is a serious camera that will have serious lenses, which will be worth the investment. Lots of new glass in the new mount is part of the story.



Sony A7 & A7R at launch (for perspective):

*New Sony A Lenses and Accessories*​_There are a total of 5 new full-frame E-mount lenses designed to take full advantage of the powerful imaging capabilities of the A7R and A7 cameras, including mid-range zoom lenses from Sony and Carl Zeiss, two bright Zeiss Sonnar T*™ prime lenses and a premium-quality G Lens™ telephoto zoom. Sony’s growing E-mount interchangeable lens lineup now consists of 21 different lenses including the new full-frame models._​​_In addition to the new lenses, there are also two new-generation mount adaptors that give photographers the ability to utilize full-frame Sony A-mount optics on the A7 and A7R cameras. The LA-EA3 adapter simply adds compatibility for existing A-mount lenses the new cameras, while the LA-EA4 model adds the ultra-fast focusing and shooting capabilities of Sony’s innovative Translucent Mirror Technology._​
- A


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2018)

That said, I'm not convinced Canon or Nikon need to roll out the red carpet on new glass to get folks to adopt the new system. They'll have a standard zoom and a tiny prime, I'm sure, but they don't need much more to get the initial rollout going -- provided there's an adaptor.

Unlike Sony, both Nikon and Canon have hordes of users sitting on plenty of glass already. As much as CaNikon would love new customers, the easiest sale they can possibly make is to their own.

So I think these bodies will sell themselves unless astronomically priced or poor initial reviews / major glitches at rollout are found. There is simply too much pent up (enthusiast) demand for this not to sell well.

- A


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## BillB (Aug 8, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> That said, I'm not convinced Canon or Nikon need to roll out the red carpet on new glass to get folks to adopt the new system. They'll have a standard zoom and a tiny prime, I'm sure, but they don't need much more to get the initial rollout going -- provided there's an adaptor.
> 
> Unlike Sony, both Nikon and Canon have hordes of users sitting on plenty of glass already. As much as CaNikon would love new customers, the easiest sale they can possibly make is to their own.
> 
> ...



Maybe so, but the Nikon adapter for the legacy glass seems iffy and complicated, certainly in comparison to the EF situation. It looks as though Nikon may be heading toward DSLR and Mirrorless lines that are each pretty much stand alone, with little synergy between the two.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2018)

Regarding the lens, the double barrel suggests a superzoom lens, e.g., 28-200mm. Hard to make a small one of those.


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2018)

BillB said:


> Maybe so, but the Nikon adapter for the legacy glass seems iffy and complicated, certainly in comparison to the EF situation. It looks as though Nikon may be heading toward DSLR and Mirrorless lines that are each pretty much stand alone, with little synergy between the two.



FX glass has to work on this new platform or folks will leave. It may not be seamless, work for every lens, etc. but the key staple lenses simply must work on that adaptor or they are in a world of hurt.

- A


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> Regarding the lens, the double barrel suggests a superzoom lens, e.g., 28-200mm. Hard to make a small one of those.



We're seeing a few different lenses being teased here. 

First one:



​One ring + that size = a fast prime, ya? The hood is neither a deep tele tube nor a very shallow UWA petal, so I'd guess that's a 35 or 50 prime. (Consider: A 35 Art is about that size.)​
Second one:



​Mos def a zoom. The silhouette from the promo (see attached) pegged the lens around 100mm (of physical length) off the mount. That says 24-70 f/4 or 24-105 f/variable to me, but I suppose 28-200 would be possible if it was super slow, i.e. f/6.3. I see what you mean (above) for what looks like two sleeves/baffles telescoping between that front element and the bigger focus/zoom ring -- that does imply quite a bit of telescoping might be going on, consistent with a superzoom. We'll see.​
- A


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> FX glass has to work on this new platform or folks will leave. It may not be seamless, work for every lens, etc. but the key staple lenses simply must work on that adaptor or they are in a world of hurt.



The OR here is that Nikon may ambitiously try to keep its pros on a full F mount mirrorless setup alongside this new mount version. I'm not sure they can carry that weight like Canon can, though.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Second one:
> Mos def a zoom. The silhouette from the promo (see attached) pegged the lens around 100mm (of physical length) off the mount. That says 24-70 f/4 or 24-105 f/variable to me, but I suppose 28-200 would be possible if it was super slow, i.e. f/6.3.



The 100mm physical length assumes the lens is fully extended. I'm not sure that's a valid assumption. If 'small' is important from a marketing standpoint, I'd pick a model with large hands and barely extend the lens.


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> The 100mm physical length assumes the lens is fully extended. I'm not sure that's a valid assumption. If 'small' is important from a marketing standpoint, I'd pick a model with large hands and barely extend the lens.




Did you look at the attachment, my good man? 
​​​_ENHANCE_​​​​They clearly took some liberties with correcting for the perspective, but that looks like a closed down zoom lens to me.​​From TDP​​24-70 f/4L IS = 100.8mm (possibly incl. the mount)​24-105 f/variable IS STM = 111.5mm (ditto above, but could be shorter if the above is f/6.3)​​It's possible, of course, that between the two teasers we've actually had a look at *three* lenses. The above came from the first 'silhouette' teaser, and it sure looks like a zoom and not the prime shown as my first example above.​​- A​


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> Did you look at the attachment, my good man?
> 
> They clearly took some liberties with correcting for the perspective, but that looks like a closed down zoom lens to me.
> ​From TDP​​24-70 f/4L IS = 100.8mm (possibly incl. the mount)​24-105 f/variable IS STM = 111.5mm (ditto above, but could be shorter if the above is f/6.3)​​



Sorry, my good man, but yes I looked at the attachment...but I don't see your point. You're drawing conclusions about the focal length of a retracting zoom based on measurements of the retracted lens? Is that logical?

Consider this...
From TDP​28-200mm f/3.5-5.6 = 97.1mm​
The two zooms you list have a single barrel, the EF 28-200mm has a double barrel...just as the pictured lens in the woman's hands appears to have. That double-barrel design is common on superzooms, but not for zooms in the 3-4x range. The 28-200 is double or more the focal length of your two listed lenses...and physically shorter than both when retracted.


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2018)

neuroanatomist said:


> The two zooms you list have a single barrel, the EF 28-200mm has a double barrel...just as the pictured lens in the woman's hands appears to have. That double-barrel design is common on superzooms, but not for zooms in the 3-4x range. The 28-200 is double or more the focal length of your two listed lenses...and physically shorter than both when retracted.



How on earth have I never seen the EF 28-200 before? I thought you were referring to much larger 28-300L for a moment there.

You think they are really launching a new platform with a twentysomething - 200? The double barrel agrees with you, I concede, but that is a very odd 'new hotness' card to play for a new platform.

- A


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 8, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> How on earth have I never seen the EF 28-200 before?


Ignorance of the lens is no excuse. 



ahsanford said:


> You think they are really launching a new platform with a twentysomething - 200? The double barrel agrees with you, I concede, but that is a very odd 'new hotness' card to play for a new platform.


Fair point. Does Sony have an FE superzoom? Might be Nikon offering something their competition doesn't.


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## Aglet (Aug 8, 2018)

ahsanford said:


> We're seeing a few different lenses being teased here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


​​Only 1 clearly visible large ribbed control ring, probably focus for a good size prime.​Seems to be an "A" - "M" focus switch on the barrel?​maybe it's modern 105mm f/2 short tele for portraiture​​[QUOTE}
Second one:



​Mos def a zoom. The silhouette from the promo (see attached) pegged the lens around 100mm (of physical length) off the mount. That says 24-70 f/4 or 24-105 f/variable to me, but I suppose 28-200 would be possible if it was super slow, i.e. f/6.3. I see what you mean (above) for what looks like two sleeves/baffles telescoping between that front element and the bigger focus/zoom ring -- that does imply quite a bit of telescoping might be going on, consistent with a superzoom. We'll see.​
- A[/QUOTE]

with the double-cam-tube setup I'd expect something in the 5x to 6x range.
Maybe a variable aperture 24-150mm f/3.5-5.6 or 24-120mm f/3.5-4.5 kit lens to get the ball rolling.


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## ahsanford (Aug 8, 2018)

Aglet said:


> ​​Only 1 clearly visible large ribbed control ring, probably focus for a good size prime.​Seems to be an "A" - "M" focus switch on the barrel?​maybe it's modern 105mm f/2 short tele for portraiture​​with the double-cam-tube setup I'd expect something in the 5x to 6x range.
> Maybe a variable aperture 24-150mm f/3.5-5.6 or 24-120mm f/3.5-4.5 kit lens to get the ball rolling.



The first one can't be a 100-ish prime or Nikon is deliberately messing with us with a false hood:
(All shots from TDP)




In order those are 85 1.8 / 100 2 / 135 2 -- once you get past a certain FL, hoods tend to (though not always) get deeper and lose the petal shape. 

But that hood in the first shot looks a lot more like a wider prime:



...which is why I think that first lens is a 35 - 50 prime. I could be wrong.

- A


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## Aglet (Aug 8, 2018)

good point
you can find more barrel hoods on short FL than petal hoods on longer FL


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## fullstop (Aug 8, 2018)

Canon EF 28-135 has (wobbly) dual-cam tubus construction as well. So it does not have to be a "classical super zoom". But the Nikon lens designs per those screenshots do look quite strange to me.


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