# Patent: Electronic control for tilt-shift lenses



## Canon Rumors Guy (May 6, 2022)

> A patent showcasing some new tilt-shift lens technology has surfaced from Canon. We have had both the Canon TS-R 14mm f/4L and Canon TS-R 24mm f/3.5L on our RF lens roadmap for quite some time. It has been rumoured that these will be autofocus tilt-shift lenses.
> The patent here discusses electronic control of of the tilt function of a tilt-shift lens.
> If Canon pulls off both autofocus and electronic controls on their new RF mount tilt-shift lenses, that will be pretty revolutionary.
> 
> ...



Continue reading...


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## neuroanatomist (May 6, 2022)

That would certainly tempt me to swap my TS-E 17 and 24 II for the RF versions.


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## [email protected] (May 6, 2022)

There is a lot of potential with a software-controlled tilt function. Getting the degree of tilt correct now requires you to measure the imaginary distance between the camera and the plane of focus you're trying to achieve. You then look up on a chart the degree of tilt. It's not terribly intuitive, and takes some getting used to.

If a user could input where they want a plane of focus somehow, Canon could theoretically use the information it gets from phase detect to figure out the angle and tilt it. That would be amazing. It would mean more of a run-and-gun use case, where now tilt/shift lenses are for the slow, considered shooters. 

But if you take the existing EF tilt/shift lenses and put the RF premium on them; then add the supply chain premium, then add this new innovation premium, it hurts thinking about how much they'd cost.


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## Nemorino (May 6, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> That would be amazing


Imagine: face tracking with two faces and keeping both in focus by tilt....

Very interesting patent!

But honestly I can't afford the TSE lenses and this one never, never, never.


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## Del Paso (May 6, 2022)

One giant reason for staying with Canon.
An automated tilt-function would be sensational!
PS: who needs a pre-owned kidney?


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## pzyber (May 6, 2022)

Just make an ultra-wide lens with tilt, then simulate the shift by cropping and streching the image in software that can't be turned off


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## davidcl0nel (May 7, 2022)

Again: I say a motorized Tilt is useful for the longer (90mm or beyond) lenses. Imagine a dual eye autofocus, he tilts the plane a little bit to both eyes. That could be very useful as a portrait lens, even if its "only" f/2.8 then.... Or 135 f/4 (both are the latest TS-E lenses).

But I will not switch by TSE17 for this electronical feature. How expensive they might be? 5k? (double) or even more? No way. For architectural photography the current lenses are ok. I don't like the "make it louder, go to eleven!" thing to replace it by an 14mm... Then the distance between the common 24mm is to high. (or do they want also add a 19mm or so in the middle?)


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## Fischer (May 7, 2022)

Amazing if Canon can pull this off. Wonder what the battery drain will be like.


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## Antono Refa (May 7, 2022)

Fischer said:


> Amazing if Canon can pull this off. Wonder what the battery drain will be like.


The engine tilting the lens would have to move about as much mass as an AF engine, but for a shorter distance. That's not negligible, but I think the largest power consumer in the system would still be live view, whether through the back screen or viewfinder.


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## Juangrande (May 7, 2022)

davidcl0nel said:


> Again: I say a motorized Tilt is useful for the longer (90mm or beyond) lenses. Imagine a dual eye autofocus, he tilts the plane a little bit to both eyes. That could be very useful as a portrait lens, even if its "only" f/2.8 then.... Or 135 f/4 (both are the latest TS-E lenses).
> 
> But I will not switch by TSE17 for this electronical feature. How expensive they might be? 5k? (double) or even more? No way. For architectural photography the current lenses are ok. I don't like the "make it louder, go to eleven!" thing to replace it by an 14mm... Then the distance between the common 24mm is to high. (or do they want also add a 19mm or so in the middle?)


“But this lens goes to eleven” 
“What about this lens”
“Don’t touch that lens….”
“Don’t even look at it”.


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## bbasiaga (May 7, 2022)

If these lenses are fully electronic this way, I'm guessing $5k USD. 

Brian


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## Hector1970 (May 7, 2022)

This would be one hell of an expensive lens if it had that capability. 
Personally I don't think it would be worth it.
I think one of the things that makes the TS-E great is that it is manual focus so you are far more precise in what you are doing as you are checking focus.
Motorised tilt is interesting but I wonder really. It's a function I don't use much. The current controls are not precise, hard to make minor adjustments.
I wonder would a motorised version be much better. It's like those motorised lens you can get for micro 4/3 or superzoom bridge cameras, they tend not to be that controlable. You'd want to be able to make micro adjustments. 
Sometimes adding technology doesn't make it better.


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## Del Paso (May 7, 2022)

Hector1970 said:


> This would be one hell of an expensive lens if it had that capability.
> Personally I don't think it would be worth it.
> I think one of the things that makes the TS-E great is that it is manual focus so you are far more precise in what you are doing as you are checking focus.
> Motorised tilt is interesting but I wonder really. It's a function I don't use much. The current controls are not precise, hard to make minor adjustments.
> ...


It would, in my understanding, not just be a motorized tilt function, but a combination of tilt plus auto AF.
This would render obsolete the complex and boring calculation of focus distribution. Also ideal for handheld photography!


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## roby17269 (May 7, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> That would certainly tempt me to swap my TS-E 17 and 24 II for the RF versions.


Same for me! 
I have to say though, that the MF aids are so good with the R5 (and I assume R6 and R3 at least) that I haven't missed AF on my 2 TS-E lenses


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## Bonich (May 8, 2022)

pzyber said:


> Just make an ultra-wide lens with tilt, then simulate the shift by cropping and streching the image in software that can't be turned off


Did you ever use any TS lens?
There is a difference between
- tilting (the topic of the patent)
- and shifting (your not so wise proposal)

No, a 10-500 zoom will not do the job.


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## Bonich (May 8, 2022)

Antono Refa said:


> The engine tilting the lens would have to move about as much mass as an AF engine, but for a shorter distance. That's not negligible, but I think the largest power consumer in the system would still be live view, whether through the back screen or viewfinder.


An AF engine has to move a group of lens elements within the tube of the lens

A tilt engine has
- to tilt the whole tube with all lens elements.
- to rotate the whole mechanism to get the tilt orientation needed.

Frankly, I hardly can imagine this to happen (robustness).

And the user interface dealing with at least three independent focus points seems a challenge for me as well. (This is to be done by the body, not the lens)


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## Bonich (May 8, 2022)

roby17269 said:


> Same for me!
> I have to say though, that the MF aids are so good with the R5 (and I assume R6 and R3 at least) that I haven't missed AF on my 2 TS-E lenses


Basically the TS-E lenses started to make sense adapted at R-bodies


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## keithcooper (May 8, 2022)

The motorised bit is interesting, but looking at this I see mainly a move away from the side mounted control knob for tilt - a more accurate setting for those that need it.

The Laowa 15 and 20mm shift lenses have a lens ring approach to shift and I find it very useful when using the shift axis set at arbitrary directions (I still have the 20mm here from my recent testing/review)

Lens ring based adjustments for shift/shift axis/tilt/tilt axis/focus will make for some interesting ergonomic design challenges. Explaining how to actually use such functions (and, for example, the practical limitations of tilting the focus plane) will make for some interesting challenges in screen UI and user education and expectation management ;-)

A previous 2019 patent is worth looking at if you're interested in automation of some aspects of tilt use [ USPTO ]

My suspicion is that an updated tilt/shift mechanism, the latest in optical designs and T/S EXIF data are far more important to people willing to pay for lenses like this than AF and motorised functions.


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## Del Paso (May 8, 2022)

If it's a 14mm, this lens will replace my extreme WA lenses (14, 15, 18, 16-35).
No doubt the IQ will be Canon-like! (The price will be CanonRF-like too, sadly). But I want it!!!!
I often use shift-lenses in landscape photography (forest-trees, canyons, mountains etc...) I just hate converging lines!


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## Nemorino (May 8, 2022)

Bonich said:


> An AF engine has to move a group of lens elements within the tube of the lens
> 
> A tilt engine has
> - to tilt the whole tube with all lens elements.
> - to rotate the whole mechanism to get the tilt orientation needed.


If you have a look at the pictures in the article, you will see only a single lens is moved.


Del Paso said:


> If it's a 14mm,


This doesn't look like a wide angle lens. The front element is in a housing which cut of the edges of wider lenses.
Probably this patent is aimed at unique portrait lenses or something different. These use cases would also more profit from electronic control. A landscape or real estate shooter is able to spent some seconds in adjusting the lens. They also are more interested in the shift function which this patent seems to lag.


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## Antono Refa (May 8, 2022)

Bonich said:


> An AF engine has to move a group of lens elements within the tube of the lens
> 
> A tilt engine has
> - to tilt the whole tube with all lens elements.
> ...


I think there are two issues here.

The first is whether Canon will implement this patent, e.g. because it wouldn't be robust enough. If I had to bet $10, I would be on your side.

The second is, *if* Canon implements this patent, how much power it would consume.


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## Del Paso (May 8, 2022)

Nemorino said:


> If you have a look at the pictures in the article, you will see only a single lens is moved.
> 
> This doesn't look like a wide angle lens. The front element is in a housing which cut of the edges of wider lenses.
> Probably this patent is aimed at unique portrait lenses or something different. These use cases would also more profit from electronic control. A landscape or real estate shooter is able to spent some seconds in adjusting the lens. They also are more interested in the shift function which this patent seems to lag.


You are right! Edit: you could (!) be right...
I was so excited I assumed this post was about the long-expected 14mm TS... so, I didn't even pay attention to the pictures.
Yet, if I think this over, this patent is just a theoretical representation of a concept. It still could become a 14mm TS reality.
Or, as you presume, a portrait lens.


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## Nemorino (May 8, 2022)

Yes and I am just thinking.
Next thought: could this be realized in a shift lens or just a tilt only lens. I cannot imagine a wide angle with tilt but without shift.


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## Alam (May 9, 2022)

Hector1970 said:


> This would be one hell of an expensive lens if it had that capability.
> Personally I don't think it would be worth it.
> I think one of the things that makes the TS-E great is that it is manual focus so you are far more precise in what you are doing as you are checking focus.
> Motorised tilt is interesting but I wonder really. It's a function I don't use much. The current controls are not precise, hard to make minor adjustments.
> ...


Depends, imagine underwater photography with ts lens, there's no way you can do it with manual lens


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## Hector1970 (May 9, 2022)

Alam said:


> Depends, imagine underwater photography with ts lens, there's no way you can do it with manual lens


Interesting, would never have thought of using one underwater .


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## Hector1970 (May 9, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> It would, in my understanding, not just be a motorized tilt function, but a combination of tilt plus auto AF.
> This would render obsolete the complex and boring calculation of focus distribution. Also ideal for handheld photography!


Yes both and additionally accurate exif data. It will be interesting. I don’t use tilt much. It’s tricky to finely adjust. The current knob is not very precise. The final product will be interesting and expensive. I’d highly recommend the 24 TS-E II for anyone considering it. Using it makes you a better photographer. You have to think when using it.


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## InchMetric (May 9, 2022)

There is a "virtual tilt" alternative to tilt shift that can be implemented in firmware for existing bodies and lenses for relatively still subjects (like tilt shift is typically used for). 

It might be described as "dual subject autofocus" or "multi-subject auto focus." It simply involves shooting rapid sequential images (at 20-30 FPS electronic shutter presumably) with each identified subject in focus. The image is the composited to put both subjects in focus. One typical application would be a portrait of two people at different focal differences. Getting both eyes on focus for an angled subject is another application. Face and goods for a model displaying a product such as jewelry.

This and related concepts are disclosed and claimed in US Patent Number 11,283,989, which was granted last month. Coincidentally, I'm the inventor and just received the printed copy of the patent in the mail yesterday.

Other disclosed concepts include applying this to focus stacking systems to provide focus for intermediate subjects between the main selected subjects.
For shooting angled planar subjects like building facades this does not provide the perfect plane of focus of a tilt shift. But when the tilt is used simply to get a couple important subjects into simultaneous focus, it's a suitable solution. And of course, it's a firmware implementation that doesn't require a new lens. In addition, it enables capturing more two subjects that are not in a common plane with each other. 

As a multiple-patent inventor with experience sharing this sort of thing, to save time you may use the following response template codes if you wish:
a. "Cool, congratulations."
b. "Patents suck, and here's why based on my experience..."
c. "I didn't read the patent, but I'm sure it won't work."
d. "I don't like the idea and I would never use it."

My other camera-related patents (granted - more pending) are:
Controlling added digital zoom (cropping) using the optical zoom ring on a conventional lens - US Patent 10,868,965.
Lens mount adapter with latch to prevent detachment from lens (semi-dedicated) - US Patent 11,212,451.


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## Del Paso (May 9, 2022)

Hector1970 said:


> Yes both and additionally accurate exif data. It will be interesting. I don’t use tilt much. It’s tricky to finely adjust. The current knob is not very precise. The final product will be interesting and expensive. I’d highly recommend the 24 TS-E II for anyone considering it. Using it makes you a better photographer. You have to think when using it.


24 TSE : my third most often used lens, after Summilux 1,4/35 and EF 100-400 L II when travelling (cities, nature etc...)


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## Del Paso (May 9, 2022)

bbasiaga said:


> If these lenses are fully electronic this way, I'm guessing $5k USD.
> 
> Brian


Just look at Nikon's 19mm TS lens to get an idea...$$$$$$$
In French I'd say it will cost "la peau des fesses" (the skin of one's a*s)


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## neuroanatomist (May 9, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> Just look at Nikon's 19mm TS lens to get an idea...$$$$$$$
> In French I'd say it will cost "la peau des fesses" (the skin of one's a*s)


Ouch, that makes Canon's TS-E 17 look like a bargain!


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## Del Paso (May 9, 2022)

neuroanatomist said:


> Ouch, that makes Canon's TS-E 17 look like a bargain!


In Europe, Nikon's TS 19mm costs as much as Canon's TSE 17 + TSE 24...
But is said to be optically fantastic (Lens Rentals).
And, for what it is, basically a MF ultra wide-angle, the TSE 17mm is indeed a bargain!


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## pzyber (May 10, 2022)

Bonich said:


> Did you ever use any TS lens?
> There is a difference between
> - tilting (the topic of the patent)
> - and shifting (your not so wise proposal)
> ...


It was a sarcastic comment aimed at how Canon have designed the latest lenses with very high distortion and corrects it with software. I'll make that more clear in the future since not everyone seem to understand sarcasm 

And yes I own and use TS-lenses regularly.


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## cayenne (May 10, 2022)

I wonder, would these also still be capable of manual control of focus, tilt, etc...?

If not, then it would kill the lens' usefulness on any other cameras.

I know I find a lot of pleasure using full manual lenses adapted for use on a variety of mirrorless cameras.

If it is manual, you can use it on any camera which is nice....and to me, makes it more valuable to use across my camera stable.

Just a thought.

cayenne


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## stevelee (May 10, 2022)

Hector1970 said:


> The current controls are not precise, hard to make minor adjustments.
> I wonder would a motorised version be much better. It's like those motorised lens you can get for micro 4/3 or superzoom bridge cameras, they tend not to be that controlable. You'd want to be able to make micro adjustments.
> Sometimes adding technology doesn't make it better.


My fear would be that the precision might have a feel a bit like manual focusing on the G5X and G7X cameras.

I can't justify the expense for the current TS-E lenses, so I shouldn't worry about the motorized ones.


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## Del Paso (May 10, 2022)

stevelee said:


> My fear would be that the precision might have a feel a bit like manual focusing on the G5X and G7X cameras.
> 
> I can't justify the expense for the current TS-E lenses, so I shouldn't worry about the motorized ones.


It's a case of conscience.
Mine tells me I have to buy the TSE 14mm, even if I must sell my car.


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## becceric (May 11, 2022)

Del Paso said:


> It's a case of conscience.
> Mine tells me I have to buy the TSE 14mm, even if I must sell my car.


I understand. I just bought the TS-E 17mm. If it wasn’t for the crazy values on used cars, my Honda would be worth less than that lens.


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## gdanmitchell (May 14, 2022)

I hate to imagine the cost of such a special-purpose beast of a lens!

However, there are lots of interesting possibilities here, too. For example, if the operation of the tilt/shift mechanism (and, of course, focus) are electronically controlled, the camera will also be getting information about these settings and that information could be used to inform image correction. I can imagine things like graduated CA correction that recognized how CA would vary across an image from a TS'ed lens, for example.

But the cost! ;-)


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## stevelee (May 14, 2022)

gdanmitchell said:


> I hate to imagine the cost of such a special-purpose beast of a lens!
> 
> However, there are lots of interesting possibilities here, too. For example, if the operation of the tilt/shift mechanism (and, of course, focus) are electronically controlled, the camera will also be getting information about these settings and that information could be used to inform image correction. I can imagine things like graduated CA correction that recognized how CA would vary across an image from a TS'ed lens, for example.
> 
> But the cost! ;-)


One advantage might be that the tilt and shift info would be included in metadata and perhaps focus data.


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