# Basic Newbie Studio Lighting Questions



## kat.hayes (Jan 12, 2017)

I am very new to photography/lighting and want to use a room to setup some lights to take portraits of a toddler and baby. I have about 14ft from one wall to the other. My plan is to place a white/black backdrop on the wall and have my subjects stand/lie a few feet from the backdrop. I have one strobe on a C-Stand with a softbox that will be used as the key, another strobe on a c-stand that will be placed in the back as a hair/rim light, and a third c-stand with a piece of foam core that I plan to use as the fill. I do not need full body shots, my thought is to just setup a chair that the toddler can sit in and perhaps hold the baby, or the baby can be placed on the chair separately (a small soft toddler chair a foot or so off the ground).

1. Does this space seem like it can work for what I am trying to accomplish?
2. How much space should I plan on having my subjects away from the backdrop to not cast shadows, etc.?
3. Should I even bother with the hair/rim light in the back based on my needs, and the space I have available?
4. How far should I plan on having my key/fill from the background?

Thanks for any info!!


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 12, 2017)

kat.hayes said:


> I am very new to photography/lighting and want to use a room to setup some lights to take portraits of a toddler and baby. I have about 14ft from one wall to the other. My plan is to place a white/black backdrop on the wall and have my subjects stand/lie a few feet from the backdrop. I have one strobe on a C-Stand with a softbox that will be used as the key, another strobe on a c-stand that will be placed in the back as a hair/rim light, and a third c-stand with a piece of foam core that I plan to use as the fill. I do not need full body shots, my thought is to just setup a chair that the toddler can sit in and perhaps hold the baby, or the baby can be placed on the chair separately (a small soft toddler chair a foot or so off the ground).
> 
> 1. Does this space seem like it can work for what I am trying to accomplish?
> 2. How much space should I plan on having my subjects away from the backdrop to not cast shadows, etc.?
> ...



If your room is 14 x 14, easily enough for toddlers--and even adults if your ceilings are high enough...Wow, wish we had that much room in our home for photos! I do headshots in a garage with only about 10 14 feet from camera to backdrop (generally a roll of white or faintly patterned Savage paper). Only about 10 feet from side to side too. Tight! And the ceilings are too low, around 8 feet, but I can have taller people sit on a lower stool!

As for the distance from key to background, that sort of depends on what you are trying to do with your backdrop--and how big your mods are. Can you use a doll or mannequin head as a rough stand-in to get the lighting right before bringing out the babies? If so, you have time to get things just right before taxing their very limited patience.

If these lights you are using are your own, the more you play with them in all kinds of spaces, the happier you will be when it's time to go.


----------



## kat.hayes (Jan 12, 2017)

The lights are unfortunately, not mine, so I'm trying to do as much planning before I borrow them as possible. I will be able to borrow them frequently for a day here and there. My ceiling is actually 7.5ft above the ground.

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 12, 2017)

kat.hayes said:


> The lights are unfortunately, not mine, so I'm trying to do as much planning before I borrow them as possible. I will be able to borrow them frequently for a day here and there. My ceiling is actually 7.5ft above the ground.
> 
> Thanks for the reply.



Correction, sorry. I just went out and measured, the space, believe it or not, in my garage is...14 feet! Feels tight, but does work. The space from side to side is what's really tight, it's about 12 feet. I use two 48" Octaboxes on lightstands, and a C stand with boom for a hair light that is just a strobe with a 30 deg grid. Wish I had more room in there!


----------



## dafrank (Jan 12, 2017)

It is impossible to tell you whether your space is sufficient, because of the nearly endless possibilities of the other parameters that could affect your scenario. For example, a very high-mounted key light placed closer to the side than typical would cast its shadows much closer your subjects and further from the background than a lower-mounted one, thereby lessening the need for space behind the subject. Obviously though, the height of the key is usually governed by other considerations such as the aesthetics of how the light models your subjects' faces. You don't need your barrowed strobes to check this out. Just set up your background, place a willing stand-in at the point where your subject will later be, turn off or down the room lights and aim a higher powered flashlight from your future strobes likely position towards your stand-in subject and observe where the shadows will fall. One thing to keep in mind, however, is background texture: you don't want to see any, and if you are too close to the background and shooting with too small an aperture, you might. This is unlikely, but it's something to keep in mind. as to the need for a back/side light for popping your subjects out of the background: be subtle and don't overdue it. Otherwise you may "burn" some area of their faces with highlights that are too hot and troublesome. Good luck to you. This stuff is actually quite a lot of fun without the pressure of having high-dollar clients depending on a perfect outcome.
Regards,
David


----------



## geekpower (Jan 12, 2017)

i'm an admitted noob at flash, but my immediate concern here is that with 3 flashes in a confined space you risk washing out all definition by the lighting being too even. that can be a good thing if it's what you are going for, but babies have such smooth skin it doesn't take much.


----------



## Valvebounce (Jan 12, 2017)

Hi Kat. 
Have you read Strobist 101, you can download it FREE to read at your leisure as a PDF document http://strobist.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/lighting-101-to-go.html towards the bottom of the page is a link for the PDF. 
There is also Strobist 102 and coming soon 103, the author is keeping those as part of his blog to increase his page hits and has previously requested for people not to make PDFs to share, so unfortunately for us no easy to read PDF. 
I found 101 very informative and have been trying to work through some of the examples. I have yet to read 102, I should probably make the effort if it is as good as 101. 

Cheers, Graham. 



geekpower said:


> i'm an admitted noob at flash, but my immediate concern here is that with 3 flashes in a confined space you risk washing out all definition by the lighting being too even. that can be a good thing if it's what you are going for, but babies have such smooth skin it doesn't take much.


----------



## Jopa (Jan 12, 2017)

Based on personal experience, the biggest problem photographing a baby is time (lack of it). You can't tell a baby to do anything, and if they don't want you to take their picture for some reason - it's not going to happen  For me it's all about quickly getting a shot while the baby is willing to co-operate. With my baby it's usually 30 seconds or less. I usually prepare and measure everything _before_ the photo shoot. You can use a doll and check the histogram, or simply use a light meter.

Your space seems a little tight, but should be sufficient. I usually make things simple - 2 strobes at the front, different intensity (let's say 40ws and 80ws), and 2 strobes at the back (20ws each). The front strobes with large parabolic umbrellas and diffusers, and the back strobes with reflectors and barn doors. The umbrellas are large enough and close enough to cast minimum amount of shadows in case if there is more than one child. If I'm using a white background - the back strobes are pointed to the background, and if the background is black - the back strobes are aimed to the subject(s) head(s) - rim/hair light. The barn doors are helpful to avoid unnecessary light spill.

Good luck and don't forget to post your pics here.


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 12, 2017)

dafrank said:


> It is impossible to tell you whether your space is sufficient, because of the nearly endless possibilities of the other parameters that could affect your scenario. For example, a very high-mounted key light placed closer to the side than typical would cast its shadows much closer your subjects and further from the background than a lower-mounted one, thereby lessening the need for space behind the subject. Obviously though, the height of the key is usually governed by other considerations such as the aesthetics of how the light models your subjects' faces. You don't need your barrowed strobes to check this out. Just set up your background, place a willing stand-in at the point where your subject will later be, turn off or down the room lights and aim a higher powered flashlight from your future strobes likely position towards your stand-in subject and observe where the shadows will fall. One thing to keep in mind, however, is background texture: you don't want to see any, and if you are too close to the background and shooting with too small an aperture, you might. This is unlikely, but it's something to keep in mind. as to the need for a back/side light for popping your subjects out of the background: be subtle and don't overdue it. Otherwise you may "burn" some area of their faces with highlights that are too hot and troublesome. Good luck to you. This stuff is actually quite a lot of fun without the pressure of having high-dollar clients depending on a perfect outcome.
> Regards,
> David



While the background detail might be an issue (such as wrinkles or fabric texture), simply stopping down the aperture will sufficiently control exposure to avoid burning down the house.


----------



## Jopa (Jan 12, 2017)

YuengLinger said:


> While the background detail might be an issue (such as wrinkles or fabric texture), simply stopping down the aperture will sufficiently control exposure to avoid burning down the house.



Westcott makes nice wrinkle-free backdrops, like this one https://www.amazon.com/Westcott-133-9x10-Feet-Black-Background/dp/B004TS0FKE. It has a little bit of texture, but putting a subject about a feet or two away from it helps.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Jan 12, 2017)

Continuous lighting makes it easier to get the right lighting placement to avoid shadows or other unexpected complications, you might not want to spend time experimenting with strobes while your child is getting tired. I find continuous lighting much easier. I am really cramped, 14 feet wide sounds wonderful, I have maybe 8 ft or less width and about 16 feet deep (A trailer). I have two 16 ft ceiling mounted flexible tracks with 4 backdrops mounted to tracks, so I can slide the one I want into position with the unwanted ones around to the side. Since I do product photography, I get by with the narrow space. I do have a full size Mannequin on a wheeled base that I can roll into place for use by my wife, who takes snapshots of her sewing, and knitting creations.

I have strobes, but purchased two low cost 27 inch softboxes from Amazon. Each has two 85 watt CFL's and two 65 Watt CFL's. I mount them to the walls with angle brackets to save space. I can swivel them and angle them, one is higher than the other. I also have a ceiling mounted light which lights the backdrop, but is not totally satisfactory. Its amazing that just a tiny tweak can affect shadows, I'd never get things totally right experimenting with my strobes. The lights are fixed, so I move the subject closer or further away, while trying to keep as much distance to the backdrop as possible.


----------



## kat.hayes (Jan 12, 2017)

Thanks for all of the helpful info!

I actually have access to both strobes and continuous lighting. Hensel strobes and KNO FLO continuous lights.

1. What is the downside of using the continuous lighting? Just that it will not be able to freeze motion? It seems like it would be a lot cooler for working with babies and toddlers?
2. If I go with continuous lighting, should I use Tungsten or Daylight balanced lights?

Thanks!


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 12, 2017)

kat.hayes said:


> Thanks for all of the helpful info!
> 
> I actually have access to both strobes and continuous lighting. Hensel strobes and KNO FLO continuous lights.
> 
> ...


Continuous light will facilitate learning how to lighten the subject in the best way, although it has limited options for power adjustment in each individual light.

One drawback is that you need about 1/250 speed to freeze the movement of children.

Kino Flo has a well balanced color as well as high quality LED illuminators.

Halogen bulbs produce a lot of heat, making the child uncomfortable in a few minutes.

Natural light on a balcony, or in a very large window produces pleasant illumination. This can be made even better by adding continuous light with blue plastic to make the same color as natural light.


----------



## kat.hayes (Jan 12, 2017)

Are you saying that if I use continuous lighting I will need to shoot at around 1/250 shutter speed or faster to freeze motion? I'm still pretty new to all this, so at that speed, where should I plan on having my ISO with the continuous lighting? I'd like to blur the background, and will be using a 24-70mm f2.8 with a 5DM3 so I'm guessing I would be shooting somewhere between f2.8 - f4

Thanks!!!


----------



## ajfotofilmagem (Jan 12, 2017)

kat.hayes said:


> Are you saying that if I use continuous lighting I will need to shoot at around 1/250 shutter speed or faster to freeze motion? I'm still pretty new to all this, so at that speed, where should I plan on having my ISO with the continuous lighting? I'd like to blur the background, and will be using a 24-70mm f2.8 with a 5DM3 so I'm guessing I would be shooting somewhere between f2.8 - f4
> 
> Thanks!!!


Yes, you need to shutter around 1/250 to prevent motion blur with children. Thus, an F2.8 aperture should allow an ISO not too high.


----------



## Besisika (Jan 12, 2017)

Do you have modeling light on your strobe? If yes, I would use the strobe instead.
If yes, your are good to go. Take two strobes, add grids if you own, then feather the lights.
Put them approximately a foot before the kids, facing each other, faces almost parallel to one another, one half power of the other (and adjust to test - just watch the shadows casted by one kids to the other). 
You will have an impression like you are lighting something else (empty venue before the kids) but that how feathering works. That will eliminate spills on background. 14feet is enough. 
With modelling light, aim the edge of the light to the furthest kid, so that the closer to that light you are the darker you become due to the edge of the softbox. To guide the position of the edge, turn the face of the softboxes slightly away from one another.
My opinion, your biggest challenge is that you have two subjects instead of 1 and that makes putting the light close to subject difficult due to light fall off.
I admit, I have never shot kids so I don't know how long you can keep them at the right spot. 
If not, then just use two softboxes at 45 deg as someone described it earlier and use white background to get white or grey. Black will be more difficult.
As for hair light, use snoot. Me, I prefer rim light (softbox with grid).
Feathering the light can be used with continuous light as well but you will loose a lot of power. Shutter speed needs to be at least 1/400th sec, so increase ISO if not enough power.

Below is a link from youtube on how to use it (roughly)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIlGc7pZwNE


----------



## Jopa (Jan 12, 2017)

Bright continuous light forces the pupil to shrink, so you'll get more iris, if the eyes are important to you  In dim (normal indoors) light the pupil is expanded and it takes lots of space from the iris. When you fire a strobe it won't have much time to shrink.
You can mix both lights probably, but I think it's harder because you'll have to keep some balance, similar to what you do shooting with strobes outdoors. I would still go with strobes, I think it needs to be very bright if you want to shoot let's say at f/8 1/250s.


----------



## Bennymiata (Jan 12, 2017)

Personally, I don't like using flashes with babies.
Babies don't like flashes and it's bad for their young eyes too.

Try using natural light or continuous lighting.

One or 2 flashes and most babies will get upset, and unless you are looking for photos of crying and cranky babies, don't use flash.


----------



## Besisika (Jan 13, 2017)

Bennymiata said:


> Personally, I don't like using flashes with babies.
> Babies don't like flashes and it's bad for their young eyes too.
> 
> Try using natural light or continuous lighting.
> ...


Good to know, obviously I am not a baby photographer. Ignore what I suggested then.


----------



## geekpower (Jan 13, 2017)

one other tidbit:

some babies can blink fast enough to make ETTL a problem, as the pre-flash makes them blink before the actual shot. in that case you have to use manual, though if you are using strobes you are probably forced to use manual anyway.


----------



## Jopa (Jan 13, 2017)

Bennymiata said:


> Personally, I don't like using flashes with babies.
> Babies don't like flashes and it's bad for their young eyes too.
> 
> Try using natural light or continuous lighting.
> ...



UV light emitted by a strobe's bare bulb is bad for anybody, not just babies. Just use the strobes with UV glass covers. A UV dome on a strobe + a large surface modifier will have less impact than normal sunlight.


----------



## kat.hayes (Jan 18, 2017)

Thanks for all of the helpful info and replies!

I finally am borrowing and testing some lights and am hoping someone can give me some info to get me started. I'm using two identical Hensel Integra 500 lights and have a tether cable connected from one of them to my 5DM3. 

I have never used lights before so I am not sure what I'm supposed to be setting them to. There is a button when pressed lets me choose a value in increments from 5.0 - 10 and when I press the button again it lets me change the settings in increments that ranges from 0-90. Since I'm just starting, I will not be using a light meter, instead I'd like to use the histogram of the camera, if possible. How should I adjust the value on the lights? 

Thank you and pardon my ignorance!


----------



## peterzuehlke (Jan 18, 2017)

I think it is helpful to use a light meter. (strobe meter for flash) to get ratios where you want them. especially with different modifiers on your lights (a soft box or umbrella can cut 2 stops) it can get confusing and require a lot of tests. or use one key at first with a reflector for the fill (with or without a back/ hair light). and use a gray card if you are using strobes with modeling lights, with those on and the strobe set for low power you can get a mix of color temperatures (3400 for the modeling lights and daylight for the strobe flash) (and side note, love beauty dishes)


----------



## YuengLinger (Jan 18, 2017)

You are going to have to make decisions for your settings. If you want your images to use light only from the strobes, not ambient, ISO 100 is a good place to start. Then you have to decide how much depth of field you need; f/5.6 is another good starting point.

As for shutter speed, I would go to 1/200th, the max sync speed on the 5DIII.

I'm not familiar with your lights, but I see from the B&H description, and your plan to tether one, that they can be set to optical slave mode. So why are you tethering instead of just using any speedlite to trigger both lights? (Of course if you have no speedlite, that's the answer.)

And for the light power settings, rule of thumb is to start in the middle and just go up or down until you have a good exposure. It helps to change only one variable at a time until you nail the exposure.

Once you have a proper exposure, you'll be able to see how the power settings on the light correspond to your camera settings, so if you know you want, say, a tighter aperture, you can go to f/8, and you'll be able to know exactly how much to increase power on the light to keep the same proper exposure. The lights you are using allow for 1/10th stop changes, so, if like most photographers you change your camera aperture in 1/3 stop increments, you just have to match that to 3 increments on the light. 

Get a stand-in person or a big doll or a mannequin to use for practicing exposure and where to place the lights.

It is all very simple once you know how! Truly, it isn't complicated. You seem to know your 5DIII quite well, now just work with the lights.

For a crash course that is very thorough and FREE, check out Christopher Grey's MASTER LIGHTING GUIDE video. (I have the book too.) It's here on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1GHuruKrOA


----------



## Besisika (Jan 19, 2017)

I am not familiar with that strobe but if you go to Youtube two links below should help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaAghoc9yuQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=borzIsfPd9M

Usually, one knob is for the strobe and the other one is for modeling lamp.
It should have an option of same power (or I don't know the actual name in English) when the brightness of the modeling lamp is associated (proportional to) with the strobe.
I would put it in that configuration so your modeling lamps will tell you visually about the lighting ratio.

It was very important that you specified that you are not going to use a light meter as that is very crucial in your getting ready.

Let me start with the basics (sorry that I assume this just to be sure - no offense intended)

1 - Light power (brightness).
Your F stop depends on the distance of the lights to the subject, the modifier (umbrella) and the total of lights. The law of light is called inverse square law.
For example if you put one light at 5 feet using an umbrella at lowest value (5), by moving the light further, twice the distance - 10feet, you loose 2 stops of light. 
Without changing the config of your camera, you will need to increase the power of the light by 2 stops, which is (7).
If your light is at position (5), you take a test shot and gives you F8, if you move your light doubling the distance and without changing the power, your new F stop will be 2 less, which is F4.
(Full F stops are: 2.8; 4; 5.6; 8; 11; 16 and so on.)
If your light is already at right position (with right height and umbrella), you take a shot and it shows 7.1 and you want to shoot at F8, that means that you need to increase the power (if only one light) by 1/3rd of stop. Since the light is using a 1/10th increment, you will need to increase it from (5) to (5.3)
Hope that explained the power.

As a result, when using a strobe without light meter, the best approach is to position your lights where you want them (see below), measure the light power (F stop), put markings on the floor (or don't move the lights anymore) and when the subject shows up you just put the lights back where they were. 
when the subject is really there, you take your test shot and adjust it to taste. If the subject moves towards the light, whether you move the light away of the same distance or change the F-stop (or ISO).

2 -Now the look. This is why you need modeling lamps. You move them around until you get the look you want. If they are proportional to the strobe, the final photo will look exactly the same.
But don't forget, when the subject is actually there, you might adjust the position then you need to adjust as well the power as described above.

3 - finally: two lights. The easiest way is to put them on a 2:1 ratio. Which means that if you position them equidistant from the subject, one is at power position (5) then the other one is at (6). 
If (6) gives you F5.6, with the addition of the other light (at half power (one stop less)) you will be most likely around F6.3 or F7.1 and no longer F5.6 nor F8. That's because they superimpose.

With the 5D III I would use a shutter speed of 1/160th and activate as well the blinking highlight on top of the histogram (when I shoot I tend to forget to check the histogram but I chimp and the blinking highlight is there for safety.)

Hope that helps.


----------



## kat.hayes (Jan 25, 2017)

Thanks everyone for the amazing info! I'm experimenting with placement and trying to incorporate it all.

1.) Based on my available space, if I am to use the continuous KNO lights, should I consider using one as the key and the other KNO as the fill? OR one for the key and a piece of foam core or a reflector for the fill? How would you approach this with KNO continuous lights?

2.) I have access to two 4-banks http://www.kinoflo.com/Products%20Button/Fixtures%20Remote/Select_DMX_4Bank/4Bank_DMX.html

and two Divas 
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/258600-REG/Kino_Flo_DIV_400_120U_Diva_Lite_400_Universal_Fluorescent.html

Would you try to use the 4-bank or Diva for the key/fill? Would you also use the others to light the background? I am just using a solid white collapsible background.

Thanks again!


----------

