# Another Nikon full-frame



## preppyak (Aug 10, 2014)

Apparently the D610, Df, and D810 aren't enough in the $2-3000 range.

http://nikonrumors.com/2014/08/08/another-full-frame-nikon-dslr-camera-coming-for-phiotokina.aspx/

I gotta say, I'm glad Canon isn't getting into this silliness.


----------



## RLPhoto (Aug 10, 2014)

If you throw enough ideas on the wall, something has to stick eventually. ;D


----------



## Orangutan (Aug 10, 2014)

My guess is a D620. It'll be what the D610 would have been if the D610 hadn't been what the D600 should have been. ;D I.e., they'll give something like the D810 treatment to the D610.


----------



## jrista (Aug 10, 2014)

Orangutan said:


> My guess is a D620. It'll be what the D610 would have been if the D610 hadn't been what the D600 should have been. ;D I.e., they'll give something like the D810 treatment to the D610.



Yeah, that's what I figure as well. Nikon and Canon definitely take different approaches. Canon, given the 7D II saga, definitely seems to take their pretty little time designing a camera they thing will last for years. Nikon seems to iterate, make little improvements every year and release a new model.

Personally, I am not sure I'd want the camera I spent several grand on to be updated a year after I purchased it...it would be rather irksome, to think that I spent so much money on something that...wasn't done right the first time around... But, that's just me.


----------



## dgatwood (Aug 10, 2014)

jrista said:


> Yeah, that's what I figure as well. Nikon and Canon definitely take different approaches. Canon, given the 7D II saga, definitely seems to take their pretty little time designing a camera they thing will last for years. Nikon seems to iterate, make little improvements every year and release a new model.



Canon does that, too, at least in the Rebel line.

T1i: 2009
T2i: 2010
T3i: 2011
T4i: 2012
T5i: 2013

Can the T6i be far behind?


----------



## scottkinfw (Aug 10, 2014)

More isn't better. With yearly upgrades, the camera depreciates like crazy.

On the other hand, let them innovate and keep pressure on canon, we can only benefit. Granted Canon are slow to introduce new models by comparison, but generally, more cautious and value is retained longer.

sek


----------



## jrista (Aug 10, 2014)

dgatwood said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, that's what I figure as well. Nikon and Canon definitely take different approaches. Canon, given the 7D II saga, definitely seems to take their pretty little time designing a camera they thing will last for years. Nikon seems to iterate, make little improvements every year and release a new model.
> ...



The rebel is different. It's marketed at a type of consumer group that expects products to remain up to date. Totally different, IMO, than more professional products like the D610 and D810 or 5D III.


----------



## Lightmaster (Aug 10, 2014)

jrista said:


> dgatwood said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



yep.

i have no problems that canon updates the rebels that often.
but when a 2600 euro camera is replaced after only 12 month that would be bad.

olympus and panasonic with their m43 lines are even worse i think.
i have the feeling you buy one and when you have read through the manual they announce a new camera. :


----------



## Sporgon (Aug 10, 2014)

jrista said:


> Orangutan said:
> 
> 
> > My guess is a D620. It'll be what the D610 would have been if the D610 hadn't been what the D600 should have been. ;D I.e., they'll give something like the D810 treatment to the D610.
> ...



Marketing strategy from Nikon. The company is under immense pressure from Mitsubishi to pull its weight and sell more units. Personally I agree that at this cost level it's more likely to irritate people. 

But look on the bright side; think of the forums. We constantly get people posting about waiting for the next model: 'should I buy the 6D now or wait for the 6DII' etc. well with Nikon it would actually have some meaning. Should I buy the D810 or wait for the D820 ? But if I wait anyway maybe wait just a little longer for the D830. You could have pages and pages dedicated to this type of thing that would actually have some meaning. 

I mean when the 7DII is announced who's going to be the first person to post.........


----------



## Lightmaster (Aug 10, 2014)

dilbert said:


> How soon after you bought your computer was it replaced by something better?
> And your mobile phone?



what better? cpus are making marginal increases these days.
from a sandy bridge to a haswell CPU you barely gain 20-30% performance.
only when you want to use the internal GPU it makes sense to update.

during the 90s i updated my CPU/MOBO every 12-18 month.

now i have a 4 core sandy bridge overclocked to 4.5 GHz for 3 years and i would not gain much from buying a new computer.

but i agree... most people are stupid... that´s why they think updating from a 600D to a 650D makes sense.

don´t get me started with the "smart"phone madness. :


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 10, 2014)

The D800 couldn't outsell the 5DIII. The D600/610 couldn't outsell the 6D. The Df couldn't sell, period. What's Nikon to do?? After all, when the 7D sold rings around the D300s, Nikon tried _not_ releasing an updated model to compete, and we saw how well that worked...


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Aug 10, 2014)

scottkinfw said:


> On the other hand, let them innovate


They're not "innovating". Just like Sony, they're thrashing around in a panicky attempt to come up with _something_ that will get them out of their financial hole.

Typical sign of a company in trouble...


----------



## Antono Refa (Aug 10, 2014)

In the '80s, Israeli cars had 7 digits license plates with the last two indicating on what year was the car manufactured, e.g. if the license plate was xx-xxx-86, the car was manufactured on 1986. The inevitable result was that some people bought a new car every year just for show. They had a psychological need / motivation to be seen driving a new car. By 1990, the government decided this isn't good for anyone, and changed the scheme.

The camera manufacturers do the same thing in order to boost their bottom lines: put the model number in the front of the camera and get some photographers upgrade their cameras just for show.

As for pros, I went to a photographer's wedding. The photographer he hired came with a 5Dmk-something and an EF 28–80mm f/2.8–4L USM because it's lighter than the 24-105, faster on the wide end, and saves money. I think of him no less than I think of photographers with the latest & greatest shiny lenses.


----------



## Gert Arijs (Aug 10, 2014)

If it's true, it could be the successor to the D700. That camera never got really replaced...


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 10, 2014)

Nikon is just trying to backpedal from their Df "retro-disaster". I expect the Df to be discontinued soon after the new FF model is relesased. Ideally, Nikoanians would be given the choice between D810 (36 MP) and a D810H (with 16 MP Hi-ISO sensor, one step improved from D4/Df sensor) - everything else absolutely identical - body, controls, battery, etc. - and pricing. Both at 2500 ... matching 5D III. I am sure such a dual setup [ D810 / D810H ] would appeal to many Nikon users. 

I´d love to see Canon following that move ... instead of ONE 5D IV ... two of them: a 5D-X with 24MP/10 fps sensor plus a 5D-H with 40+ MP/5 fps sensor. Everything identical except resolution, fps and max ISO. 
And then offer them separately and also as "2-body kit" @ 33% discount. Sales would go through the roof.  

And just for me ... a third variant ... EOS 5-M ... mirrorless. Plus some nice'n small native lenses of course.


----------



## Vossie (Aug 10, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> I´d love to see Canon following that move ... instead of ONE 5D IV ... two of them: a 5D-X with 24MP/10 fps sensor plus a 5D-H with 40+ MP/5 fps sensor. Everything identical except resolution, fps and max ISO.
> And then offer them separately and also as "2-body kit" @ 33% discount. Sales would go through the roof.


+1 I like that idea.


----------



## sagittariansrock (Aug 10, 2014)

These threads crack me up. I am sure Nikon will bring out something a lot of people will love. While it is true that the Df didn't become mainstream (and I personally dislike the look and the concept), many people bought and loved it.
It is good for both camps that the companies are competing. Why bash something that hasn't even come out yet? I do feel that the Nikon lineup has a gap where a versatile FF dSLR equivalent to the 5DIII can sit, the same way Canon users can use a high megapixel, high DR one.


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 10, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> ... While it is true that the Df didn't become mainstream (and I personally dislike the look and the concept), many people bought and loved it.



no. at least not anywhere in Europe. Hardly anybody bought it. Good sensor. Totally botched pseudo-retro user-interface. Consumer-class D600 chassis, instead of using the D800 as sensor-holder for that D4 sensor, sharing everything else with the D800 ... UI, controls, battery, battery grip.


----------



## David Hull (Aug 10, 2014)

RLPhoto said:


> If you throw enough ideas on the wall, something has to stick eventually. ;D



;D too funny, but true, I am afraid. I think Canon is not immune from the fundamental problem though which is that the market is saturating, there are other competing alternatives like mirror-less, etc.


----------



## unfocused (Aug 10, 2014)

People are mixing apples and oranges. I agree the incremental upgrades to the D600 and D800 were bad and undermined confidence in the brand. But slotting a new camera in between the existing models would be a good move.

Consumers always want more choices and Nikon is given them another option. With modern manufacturing technologies companies are able to offer more options with small differences in costs. 

If Canon chose to offer as many full frame models as they do APS-C, why would anyone complain?


----------



## sagittariansrock (Aug 10, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> sagittariansrock said:
> 
> 
> > ... While it is true that the Df didn't become mainstream (and I personally dislike the look and the concept), many people bought and loved it.
> ...



No need to preach to the choir ;D- I despise the loss of functionality over form in the first place, and don't think much of the Df's form in the second. 

Nevertheless, Europe doesn't comprise all of Nikon's market. I am sure some people are buying it. It ranks in the 7K's on Amazon, and there are cameras behind it. It wasn't expected to be a big seller, mind you, as Nikon seems to have informed dealers before release. But it has sold more than expected.


----------



## distant.star (Aug 10, 2014)

Lightmaster said:


> i have the feeling you buy one and when you have read through the manual they announce a new camera. :



So, the obvious solution is to not read the manual!


----------



## sanj (Aug 10, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> These threads crack me up. I am sure Nikon will bring out something a lot of people will love. While it is true that the Df didn't become mainstream (and I personally dislike the look and the concept), many people bought and loved it.
> It is good for both camps that the companies are competing. Why bash something that hasn't even come out yet? I do feel that the Nikon lineup has a gap where a versatile FF dSLR equivalent to the 5DIII can sit, the same way Canon users can use a high megapixel, high DR one.



Agree.


----------



## Admin US West (Aug 10, 2014)

It does look like Nikon is very convinced that bring full frame cameras out in large numbers will mean more sales.

FF sensors no longer cost a huge premium to manufacture, and by increasing the volume, prices drop further.

Nikon is not likely to cannibalize D4S sales, I think they learned that from the D700. the Df certainly was a niche camera and not likely to affect D4s sales.

I wonder if this is a indication of what Canon will be doing. They are obviously aware of each others strategy, so, Canon might come out with a $4500 Camera to place between 5D III and the 1DX. Maybe a 5DX?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 10, 2014)

CR Backup Admin said:


> ...Canon might come out with a $4500 Camera to place between 5D III and the 1DX. Maybe a 5DX?



*3D*

;D


----------



## Keith_Reeder (Aug 10, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> I am sure Nikon will bring out something a lot of people will love.


Well they'd better do it quickly, because apparently they're _not_ doing it at the moment:
http://nikonrumors.com/2014/08/09/nikon-cuts-yearly-forecasts-after-reporting-lower-sales-and-income-in-first-quarter.aspx/

As others here point out on a regular basis: the proof of the pudding is in how many cameras the manufacturers sell, and - wonderful as Nikon are, according to some - they don't seem to be particularly good at actually _moving product_.


----------



## Admin US West (Aug 10, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> CR Backup Admin said:
> 
> 
> > ...Canon might come out with a $4500 Camera to place between 5D III and the 1DX. Maybe a 5DX?
> ...



Possible, but unlikely. I think they are reserving that number for 20 years from now.


----------



## unfocused (Aug 10, 2014)

CR Backup Admin said:


> ...Canon might come out with a $4500 Camera to place between 5D III and the 1DX. Maybe a 5DX?



It would make more sense to slot a camera between the 6D and 5D. Currently, there is a $1,500 gap between the two. Plenty of room for another model. Release a new model with the current 70D/7D type autofocus and offer it for $2,200. 

Human behavior being what it is, the 6D becomes the bargain model that allows dealers to up-sell people to the more "advanced" version. Might even boost sales of the 5D, because "for just a little more, you can have all these added features in a much better built body.'


----------



## x-vision (Aug 10, 2014)

Keith_Reeder said:


> Well they'd better do it quickly, because apparently they're _not_ doing it at the moment ...



Canon has already cut their sales forecast for this year ... twice. 

So, it's not like Nikon is struggling, while Canon is riding a wave of success.
This is just the state of the DSLR market is right now. 
Apparently, a saturation point has been reached and the market is stale/shrinking.

As for the rumored Nikon FF camera: it makes a lot of sense, actually.
When the D800 was released, many felt that it was not a real D700 successor - and this sentiment has not
changed with the D810 announcement.

If Nikon is smart, the rumored camera will be the D710: a D810 with a 24mp sensor and a faster frame rate.
That would be the true D700 successor and many will be buying that rather than the D810.

Same for Canon, btw.
A 5DIV with 40MP and 4-5fps frame rate will be disappointment for many 5DIII owners, who would rather see
only a modest increase in resolution - but more tangible improvements in ISO, DR, and frame rate. 

Overall, one size doesn't fit all in this segment.
Some would rather have a high resolution and are OK with a slower frame rate, while others would rather have
it the other way round. 

Back to the quarterly/yearly projections: 
Despite lagging sales for the last two quarters (vs 2013), Canon was optimistic for the overall yearly outlook.
That's the best indication that they will be announcing a new DSLR at Photokina, which will be contributing to
the bottom line.

The question is, will that be the 7DII or a high-resolution 5DIV?

Considering how Canon and Nikon have model/feature parity at every price level, basically, 
I'd say that the latest Nikon rumors just increase the probability of a 5DIV vs a 7DII at Photokina.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 10, 2014)

x-vision said:


> Keith_Reeder said:
> 
> 
> > Well they'd better do it quickly, because apparently they're _not_ doing it at the moment ...
> ...



Where do you get your information about this? Care to post some actual data?

Here are some recent reports that are actual data:


"Nikon misses financial forecast, stock down at 3 years low, company restructuring announced"

Read more on NikonRumors.com: http://nikonrumors.com/2014/05/17/nikon-misses-financial-forecast-stock-down-at-3-years-low-company-restructuring-announced.aspx/#ixzz3A1Sb8ZL2

"UPDATE 1-Canon nudges up 2014 profit forecast as office equipment sales grow; Q1 profit up 51 pct"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/24/canon-results-idUSL3N0NG29H20140424?type=companyNews


----------



## x-vision (Aug 10, 2014)

Aah. I should have been more clear. Camera sales were down, not printer sales 8).

From the Reuters' link:


> *Camera sales, however, fell by 22 percent* year-on-year in the quarter ...


And straight from Canon (see page 12):
http://www.canon.com/ir/conference/pdf/conf2014q2e.pdf

Interchangeable Lens Digital Cameras: -19%

Compact Digital Cameras: -38%

Also see this commentary from Thom Hogan. It's a good read:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/canon-posts-quarterly-resul.html


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 10, 2014)

x-vision said:


> Keith_Reeder said:
> 
> 
> > Well they'd better do it quickly, because apparently they're _not_ doing it at the moment ...
> ...



True...but Nikon is cutting deeper and predicting higher losses than Canon, meaning they expect to fall even further behind the leader in market share.


----------



## x-vision (Aug 10, 2014)

The point is, despite a 19% drop in DSLR sales (on a yearly basis), Canon remains positive about the yearly outlook.

As I said, that's the real indication that there will be a new, high-value DSLR announced at Photokina.
Otherwise, how do you remain positive with a 19% drop in sales.

The question is, which will be a better seller: a 7DII or a high-resolution 5DIV? 
Or maybe both ??


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 10, 2014)

x-vision said:


> The point is, despite a 19% drop in DSLR sales (on a yearly basis), Canon remains positive about the yearly outlook.
> 
> As I said, that's the real indication that there will be a new, high-value DSLR announced at Photokina.
> Otherwise, how do you remain positive with a 19% drop in sales.



Christmas magic? Blind foolishness?

A new _expensive_ dSLR won't add much to the coffers compared to the slump in entry-level sales. Just sayin'.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Aug 10, 2014)

x-vision said:


> Aah. I should have been more clear. Camera sales were down, not printer sales 8).
> 
> From the Reuters' link:
> 
> ...



While its true that Camera sales are down, as Canon noted, high end camera sales are climbing. That hasn't been overlooked by Nikon, if they are indeed planning another Full Frame Body.

The issue is that Canon has a diverse product range to support the Company while Nikon has less to rely on, they do sell a host of optical products and industrial products, but, as a company, their stock is approaching junk value. A big factor is Canon's ability to stick to what makes a profit, and resist tossing out long shots that only eat up profits. They are very conservative, and make a profit where others are failing. While this gives them the ability to launch a expensive new product, they are very careful that a new product will meet sales and profit goals. They were able to sell 5D MK III's for $500 more than a D800, but they likely cost the same to produce, in fact, I'd bet that it costs less to make a 5D MK III.

Canon's conservative policy is a 2 edged sword. Gearheads like me want new and improved products, but we also want a healthy company to back them and support them. Right now, I'm sticking with my 5D MK III because of the completes system as well as all the third party accessories that support it. I'd suspect that third party manufacturers are balking at churning out products to support several low production camera bodies.


----------



## x-vision (Aug 10, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Christmas magic? Blind foolishness?



Heh. That's certainly a possibility. 
But if they miss, they will be taking a big beating from investors.

I think the suits know better - and they know something that we don't 8).

If I have to guess what will make a bigger splash at Photokina - and a bigger impact 
on the bottom line - that would be a 40mp 5DIV, not a 7DII.
Just sayin'.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 10, 2014)

x-vision said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Christmas magic? Blind foolishness?
> ...



Makes sense. Since I don't own Canon stock, and I'm quite happy with my 1D X, it's good for me either way.


----------



## sagittariansrock (Aug 10, 2014)

x-vision said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Christmas magic? Blind foolishness?
> ...



A high resolution FF camera definitely has its place in the Canon camera lineup, but so does an APS-C camera with more bells and whistles (not that I particularly desire either personally).

@Mt Spokane: Conservative strategy makes more sense during sales slumps, and I believe it is something Canon is pursuing only temporarily. In general, a big company cannot survive without innovation. 
I wouldn't call a company that dumps its FD system to launch an entirely new EOS system, or the optical flash system to launch an RT system, conservative. If anything, Canon is one of the most innovative and progressive companies in the industry. So I think Canon will listen to the market and respond thinking to what photographers will be wanting tomorrow, not just responding to what they want today.


----------



## x-vision (Aug 10, 2014)

Mt Spokane Photography said:


> While its true that Camera sales are down, as Canon noted, high end camera sales are climbing. That hasn't been overlooked by Nikon, if they are indeed planning another Full Frame Body.



Yes ... but that's not because Nikon is in trouble. 
That's the point of contention here. 

Both the 5DIII and D800 have proven very successful and have shown that there is a place for both types of cameras at the high end.

So, it's not surprising that Nikon will likely be announcing a 5DIII-type of camera at Photokina.
Why not monetize on the need for such a camera in their lineup? 

As for Canon: what if they announces a 40mp 5DIV at Photokina?
Will that be an act of desperation? A me-too response to the D810?

Certainly not. Just good business for Canon - and same for Nikon.

Why try to spin it as if either one is doing it because they are in trouble ??


----------



## x-vision (Aug 10, 2014)

sagittariansrock said:


> A high resolution FF camera definitely has its place in the Canon camera lineup, but so does an APS-C camera with more bells and whistles (not that I particularly desire either personally).



Agree. That's why it hard to guess what the Photokina announcement will be.
Either one is a possibility and it all depends on how Canon sees it.


----------



## deleteme (Aug 11, 2014)

preppyak said:


> I gotta say, I'm glad Canon isn't getting into this silliness.



If one listened to the noise on the forums it would seem that this is exactly what the public is clamoring for. I see almost nothing but "What we need is a FF (insert camera here) and sell it for $1200."


----------



## unfocused (Aug 11, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > If I have to guess what will make a bigger splash at Photokina - and a bigger impact
> ...



How would that make sense? APS-C far outsells full frame. There is a significant amount of pent-up demand for the 7D II. Aside from a handful of vocal forum advocates, there is little evidence of demand for a high megapixel full frame camera.


----------



## unfocused (Aug 11, 2014)

Normalnorm said:


> preppyak said:
> 
> 
> > I gotta say, I'm glad Canon isn't getting into this silliness.
> ...



Canon already makes a full frame camera that is not far off from $1,200. It's called the 6D. I wouldn't be surprised if it hit $1,200 within 18 mos.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 11, 2014)

unfocused said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Makes sense. Since I don't own Canon stock, and I'm quite happy with my 1D X, it's good for me either way.
> ...



Context, man...context. 'The suits knowing better' makes more sense than Canon's blind foolishness or belief in Christmas magic. At least to me...maybe not to you. Make sense?


----------



## unfocused (Aug 11, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



Okay, I get it. Yes, that portion of the comment made sense. Obviously, I was taking issue with the thought that a high megapixel full frame camera would help the bottom line more than a 7DII. I was afraid I was going to have to start quoting to Neuro some of Neuro's past reality-check posts about the relative markets, internet chatter vs. the real world, sales numbers of the 5DIII vs. Nikon D800 etc. etc.


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 11, 2014)

unfocused said:


> internet chatter vs. the real world, sales numbers of the 5DIII vs. Nikon D800 etc. etc.



Neuro does not have those either. He inducts those solely based on ever changing Amazon.com (US) sales rankings.  ;D

I´d really LOVE to see total # of units sold for specific camera models (by year or at least runnind total since start). Unfortunately Canon and Nikon have not disclosed them to me either. ;D


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 11, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > internet chatter vs. the real world, sales numbers of the 5DIII vs. Nikon D800 etc. etc.
> ...



And on Amazon.de, and comments by Canon and Nikon executives about their sales of higher end cameras (where Canon has recently cited better than expected sales in that segment, and Nikon worse than expected) etc. etc. :  8)

Of course, if you believe the theory put forth by our departed then returned then departed again friend Dean, who earns A$250K/year taking pictures so he knows more about photography than others, I am apparently a Canon employee, so maybe I _do_ have those figures...


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Aug 11, 2014)

This thread just keeps on gettin better and better. ;D

Do we even know what the original topic was?


----------



## neuroanatomist (Aug 11, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> Do we even know what the original topic was?



Dynamic range? :-X


----------



## AvTvM (Aug 11, 2014)

Whether or not nikon will be expanding its lineup to a total of 5 tired old FF mirrorslappers or not. And whether Canon will or should do so too. Rather than finally launching a top-notch mirrorless FF camera system and enter the era of smaller, lighter and more capable camera gear.


----------



## jrista (Aug 11, 2014)

digiquest said:


> So my answer is, where are the new improved models from Canon today?



Pending. Canon does not iterate as fast as Nikon. That may have put them behind a little, but I think in general, having a longer cycle than a year or so is good for business. It is NOT satisfying to spend three grand plus on a piece of high end equipment, only to have the company "fix" it's issues, then ask you for another three grand a year and a half later. If you read Nikon Rumors forums, that reaction is evident in a lot of Nikon users. They may have the better sensor technology, but that doesn't mean Nikon owners are compliantless. 

We cannot really speak to Canon's new sensor technology yet. It's too soon. The 7D II will be the first real opportunity for anyone to see if Canon has done anything on that front or not.


----------



## Famateur (Aug 11, 2014)

AvTvM said:


> Whether or not nikon will be expanding its lineup to a total of 5 tired old FF mirrorslappers or not. And whether Canon will or should do so too. Rather than finally launching a top-notch mirrorless FF camera system and enter the era of smaller, lighter and more capable camera gear.



That would definitely boost Canon's battery sales! : Over on SLR Lounge, one reviewer (who switched from Canon to the Sony A7) admitted that for a full day of shooting, he needs 4 fully charged batteries (at $80 a pop), and for shooting video, he needed 8-10! His stack-o-batteries was impressive. 

Seriously, we probably won't see Canon move into full frame mirrorless until battery life, EVF and AF speed/accuracy rival their DSLR counterparts.

Edited to add: It's also currently a market of smaller, lighter and less capable revenue/sales.


----------



## moreorless (Aug 13, 2014)

Famateur said:


> AvTvM said:
> 
> 
> > Whether or not nikon will be expanding its lineup to a total of 5 tired old FF mirrorslappers or not. And whether Canon will or should do so too. Rather than finally launching a top-notch mirrorless FF camera system and enter the era of smaller, lighter and more capable camera gear.
> ...



Your also taking a much more significant investment when moving to mirrorless, a new FF DSLR just means a new body that's using a lot of already existing tech and maybe even a lot of the same parts. A FF mirrorless body means using mostly new tech and designing a lineup of lenses to use.

I would point out as well that even though the 6D and D610 are sold partly as small entry level bodies really in terms of handling there still pretty high end cameras compared to the A7. I think theres room for releasing something potentially smaller and/or cheaper which would also have the benefit of a much cheaper lens lineup.


----------



## psolberg (Aug 19, 2014)

x-vision said:


> Mt Spokane Photography said:
> 
> 
> > While its true that Camera sales are down, as Canon noted, high end camera sales are climbing. That hasn't been overlooked by Nikon, if they are indeed planning another Full Frame Body.
> ...



+750 

Thanks for smacking down the stupid fanboys just trying to play brand favoritism instead of making an intelligent comment. I wish there was more of that here. To reinforce your point, there is nothing desperate about releasing a 5DmkIII killer camera with 2 years worth of better technology. There is also nothing wrong with canon doing the same to capitalize on a good opportunity like nikon found in the high detail photography area. It is simply the way things always are in the camera industry, it is called competition, not desperation and surely the nikon base is very excited about this camera as it will sell like hot cakes for there is a perceptual gap between a budget full frame and a 5fps high MP body for studio and landscape.

and if you ask me, Nikon's lineup seems really good if you're looking to upgrade to full frame:

D4s for professional sports
D810 for studio and landscape
D750 for semi-professional action and wedding and event pros.
D610 for advanced amateurs

Desperation? more like excellent planning for if canon had such lineup many here would be praising their wide selection instead of making stupid comments about how this somehow weakens their system. Many people have asked for this camera and nikon listened which IMO is a quality canon should follow.

And yes the camera industry is in decline for everybody. If you think canon is somehow doing great you only have to see how mirrorless and smart phones are basically cannibalizing their crop frame cash cows. Do read the link posted to Thom's articles for some good insight on why both Nikon and Canon have very little to celebrate and a lot of work to do. The age of the DSRL is coming to an end so it is not surprising to see Nikon push more full frame as it is an advantage (for now) over mirrorless. Yet we know from sony, who is a much larger company that canon with much better sensor technology that full frame mirrorless will be the future. It is only a question of when.


----------



## Coolhandchuck (Aug 19, 2014)

I am doing my best, to understand why it is a bad thing for a company to give consumers a choice. I wish that Canon would give us choices like this. Its great that Canon offers a bunch of different lenses, but not ok for Nikon to offer a bunch of different cameras? That is hypocrisy to me.


----------



## 3kramd5 (Aug 19, 2014)

Coolhandchuck said:


> I am doing my best, to understand why it is a bad thing for a company to give consumers a choice. I wish that Canon would give us choices like this. Its great that Canon offers a bunch of different lenses, but not ok for Nikon to offer a bunch of different cameras? That is hypocrisy to me.



I think the people complaining do so because quick refreshes hurt resale value. Why they think Nikon should protect the price of used gear at the expense of customers ready to buy new gear (if they sat on the 610 for two years and sold off the flawed 600 stock, that would be truly something to criticize) is beyond me, but maybe it feels different for people who buy gear based on a schedule rather than on an as-needed basis.


----------



## dgatwood (Aug 19, 2014)

Famateur said:


> That would definitely boost Canon's battery sales! : Over on SLR Lounge, one reviewer (who switched from Canon to the Sony A7) admitted that for a full day of shooting, he needs 4 fully charged batteries (at $80 a pop), and for shooting video, he needed 8-10! His stack-o-batteries was impressive.



The real question is this: On average, how many mirrorless wide angle lenses do you need to carry with you in your kit before the weight savings of the lighter mirrorless lenses balances out the extra weight of the additional batteries? 



moreorless said:


> Your also taking a much more significant investment when moving to mirrorless, a new FF DSLR just means a new body that's using a lot of already existing tech and maybe even a lot of the same parts. A FF mirrorless body means using mostly new tech and designing a lineup of lenses to use.



Not necessarily. They could keep the flange distance the same and let the cameras use EF lenses. Then, they could slowly introduce a series of EF-FM lenses that take advantage of the lack of a mirror to push the back element farther into the body, much like some of the EF-S lenses do, but to a greater extent. By going that route, you don't have the clumsy adapter mess. You'd lose a little bit of the size/weight advantage for the widest lenses, but not all of it.


----------



## tayassu (Aug 19, 2014)

psolberg said:


> and if you ask me, Nikon's lineup seems really good if you're looking to upgrade to full frame:
> 
> D4s for professional sports
> D810 for studio and landscape
> ...


----------



## privatebydesign (Aug 19, 2014)

psolberg said:


> and if you ask me, Nikon's lineup seems really good if you're looking to upgrade to full frame:
> 
> D4s for professional sports
> D810 for studio and landscape
> ...



Well surely that equates to:-
D4s 1DX for professional sports
D810 MIA for studio and landscape (though Canon seem to have been of the opinion that their sensor tech and higher MP in the 135 format are not a market they are interested in)
D750  5D MkIII for semi-professional action and wedding and event pros.
D610  6D for advanced amateurs

Of course you failed to mention the Df, and that is the one that that has thrown the Nikon FF lineup the curved ball and elicited the smirks and derision it seems to have deserved.


----------



## markko (Aug 19, 2014)

preppyak said:


> Apparently the D610, Df, and D810 aren't enough in the $2-3000 range.
> 
> http://nikonrumors.com/2014/08/08/another-full-frame-nikon-dslr-camera-coming-for-phiotokina.aspx/
> 
> I gotta say, I'm glad Canon isn't getting into this silliness.



Looking at the link below, I think they'll announce the D820... ;D

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3182497502/nikon-announces-service-advisory-for-d810-bright-spots


----------



## moreorless (Aug 21, 2014)

privatebydesign said:


> psolberg said:
> 
> 
> > and if you ask me, Nikon's lineup seems really good if you're looking to upgrade to full frame:
> ...



The Df for me is really a camera that fell into fanboy no mans land, hated by the mirrorless crowd for pushing in on "there turf", hated by those pushing the standard DSLR form factor, hated by the Canon fan. Ultimately though I'm guessing its gotten Nikon are fair few sales from people outside these camps and probably didn't cost them a massive amount(new body but no new sensor, AF system etc).

Canon might potentially be able to do without it but today I think even Nikon really needs to go after the niche markets, the key is I'd say to do so in such a way that its cost effective.


----------



## psolberg (Sep 2, 2014)

markko said:


> preppyak said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently the D610, Df, and D810 aren't enough in the $2-3000 range.
> ...



software issues <> hardware issues. remember the 5DMkIII light leaks? 1DsMKIII oil. those are the kind of stuff to watch out from. software patches are nicer.

in other news, the truth will be out in just a few days (10) to be exact
http://nikonrumors.com/2014/09/02/nikon-d750-dslr-camera-to-be-announced-in-10-days.aspx/

I'll rent one to check it out, but thinking about going to 24MP just isn't going to cut unless it had something like 16stops of DR or some other magic. Even the high ISO will likely have the DR of a fax machine as it is often the case with all the high ISO images out there, thus not interested.



privatebydesign said:


> psolberg said:
> 
> 
> > and if you ask me, Nikon's lineup seems really good if you're looking to upgrade to full frame:
> ...


the Df is more of a nostalgia item and not something you really see used in a commercial or professional setting, specially not with the D750 being a "proper" body that better fits the needs of its pro and semi-pro audience. But yes, that is a choice.

You've correctly mapped the offerings to canon's which demonstrates that Nikon is in fact not really throwing too many models out there. In fact they still lack the D4X which is a pro fissional grade high res body, probably clocking at 40-50MP. It has been rumored like the canon high MP body, and likely in prototype phase, just like with canon. Ultimately I can't complain. Choices in the full frame game are great, and add to that what sony is doing with mirrorless, which is ahead of anybody. We're really just staring the golden age of full frame digital. 

Canon will off course go high MP in some model. Just like when Nikon was the first to push the religion of the high ISO with the D3, then only to have canon follow, and a high end APSC body like the D300 and have canon follow. And now that thankfully we have competition, seeing manufacturers try the other's formula is welcomed. I hope we never see a canon/nikon like era of total dominance again for it means stagnation, lack of choice, and worse equipment for all. Thankfully those days are long gone


----------

