# 6d WORSE than 60d for moire/aliasing?



## teamjim (Oct 2, 2013)

'Upgraded' from a Canon 60d to a Canon 6d and also now using a canon 1.2 50mm instead of a 1.4 30mm sigma. I was aware of the 6d moire issues before buying but always had good results with my 60d and looking at 5d mkii - which are supposed to have the same issues. 

BUT THE 6D IS NOTICEABLY WORSE! - I have done 2 videos with the 6d and 1.2 50mm and they have both got moire on simple things like guitar strings and guitar edges. I NEVER had this with the 60d and sigma 1.4.

Yes sharpening is off.

What do I do? Is a 6d with the mosaic engineering filter a better option (considering its cheaper) than upgrading to a 5d mkiii?


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## Marsu42 (Oct 2, 2013)

teamjim said:


> What do I do? Is a 6d with the mosaic engineering filter a better option (considering its cheaper) than upgrading to a 5d mkiii?



Considering the cost of the anti-moire filter and that the results will be still sub-par 5d3, return the 6d and buy a 5d3 (or 50d). Plus the 5d3 does 1080p/60fps raw video with Magic Lantern, the 6d is limited to ~40mb/s . 

But thanks for the information, it might help other potential buyers to decide and is a real life experience vs. "6d is just fine" fanboys. I've got a 6d myself, but certainly not for video, Canon took great care there when designing the "new and enhanced" 20mp sensor vs. 5d2 vs. 5d3 :-(


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## neuroanatomist (Oct 2, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> But thanks for the information, it might help other potential buyers to decide and is a real life experience vs. "6d is just fine" fanboys.



There are 6D fanboys? Oh wait, I know of at least one. :



Marsu42 said:


> Canon took great care there when designing the "new and enhanced" 20mp sensor vs. 5d2 vs. 5d3 :-(



Of course. It's new, that's true. Enhanced? Well, one might be tempeted to assume those enhancements are for the consumer, but perhaps the full statement on the internal memo read, "New and enhanced specifically to support product differentiation." </cynical>


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## teamjim (Oct 2, 2013)

thanks guys! Also I've heard a little about RAW, what is the real world benefit of being able to record in raw? doesnt it all have to be converted to pro res to edit anyway?


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## luciolepri (Oct 2, 2013)

teamjim said:


> thanks guys! Also I've heard a little about RAW, what is the real world benefit of being able to record in raw? doesnt it all have to be converted to pro res to edit anyway?



My workflow is RAW to DNG - DNG to TIFF (Camera RAW) - TIFF to editing software.

For videos, get a 5D MKIII. Putting a Mosaic filter on a 1500 $ camera just to save a few bucks is not a wise choise.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 2, 2013)

teamjim said:


> thanks guys! Also I've heard a little about RAW, what is the real world benefit of being able to record in raw?



Like 15 stops of dynamic range with Magic Lantern raw + dual iso ?



neuroanatomist said:


> There are 6D fanboys? Oh wait, I know of at least one.



No, actually there is another one who recently told me to stop criticizing his (or my) 6D  ... and truth to be told, I somehow understand it, if buying a tech gadget for €1500 which as a horrendous amount of money for a lot of us (also including me) being told that it's crippled can be frustrating.



neuroanatomist said:


> Of course. It's new, that's true. Enhanced? Well, one might be tempeted to assume those enhancements are for the consumer, but perhaps the full statement on the internal memo read, "New and enhanced specifically to support product differentiation." </cynical>



Yeah, Canon surpassed themselves with that statement, I'd really have expected to be *somthing* in there, but really the sensor iq of the 6d is = 5d3... though 6d might have some less banding, but not due to the sensor. Maybe new and enhanced vs. 5dc?

Btw: Might it be that you're getting more critical about Canon's product policy during the ~2 years I am reading CR :-o ?


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## ajfotofilmagem (Oct 3, 2013)

I did not expect MOIRÉ was a problem in simple things like guitar strings and guitar edges. :-[ As I understand it, the MOIRÉ in Canon 6D is caused by the down convert 20 megapixel to 1920x1080 by reading that "jumps" a few lines to save the computational processing. Using this logic, the new 70D will also have a MOIRÉ bad enough, because the sensor has 20 megapixel too, and you should not expect Canon to be more careful with a $ 1200 camera than another $ 2000. Can anyone confirm if 70D also suffers from this evil in video mode? :-\


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## Janbo Makimbo (Oct 3, 2013)

Perhaps you could get a cam corder !!!


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## luciolepri (Oct 3, 2013)

ajfotofilmagem said:


> I did not expect MOIRÉ was a problem in simple things like guitar strings and guitar edges. :-[ As I understand it, the MOIRÉ in Canon 6D is caused by the down convert 20 megapixel to 1920x1080 by reading that "jumps" a few lines to save the computational processing. Using this logic, the new 70D will also have a MOIRÉ bad enough, because the sensor has 20 megapixel too, and you should not expect Canon to be more careful with a $ 1200 camera than another $ 2000. Can anyone confirm if 70D also suffers from this evil in video mode? :-\



What you see on the guitar strings is actually an aliasing issue (due to the "line skipping" process). It can be... let's say partially bypassed (as it happens with the 5DIII or the 1DX) with the implementation inside the camera of a strong optic anti-aliasing filter, that will also reduce sharpness (the 6D is much sharper than the other two cameras). Having a 20 or an 18 MP camera doesn't make as much difference as having or not a good AA filter before the sensor.


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## candc (Oct 3, 2013)

I don't know a lot about video but what I do know is that everyone seems to agree that the 5d3 does it best. I have a 70d and a bunch of guitars so if you post a sample, I can probably shoot something similar for you to compare but I am guessing it is going to be close to the same. Maybe you can't post video here with the size limit so link to YouTube?


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## pensive tomato (Oct 3, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> No, actually there is another one who recently told me to stop criticizing his (or my) 6D



I supposed that could be me, so I feel compelled to reply. My comment came in light of what I understood as you suggesting that the LCD backscreen of the 6D makes it hard to apply a screen protector (which a number of people in CR reported as a non-issue). I said what was left to say from my end on that other other thread. I come to CR for the enjoyment and the wealth and richness of information that come from CR members' contributions (many of yours included).

I think there's a different between being a fanboi and someone whose had a positive experience with the product. And no, I wouldn't recommend the 6D to those interested in video. I don't do video, but I've seen demonstrations that confirm the problem reported by the OP.


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## Marsu42 (Oct 3, 2013)

pensive tomato said:


> I think there's a different between being a fanboi and someone whose had a positive experience with the product.



We can agree on this, and I also have to say the iq of the 6d is very good, esp. with Magic Lantern bringing it up to 15 stops of dynamic range. But you should like the "positive 6d spec list" I did some time ago to decide between crop, 5d2 and 6d: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=11309.0

The list of things that are good about the 6d is quite long, the only important thing is to be sure the (few) shortcomings don't affect the main usage and as spending €1500 will be considered well, esp. now with the 70d on the market.


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## pensive tomato (Oct 3, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> We can agree on this, and I also have to say the iq of the 6d is very good, esp. with Magic Lantern bringing it up to 15 stops of dynamic range. But you should like the "positive 6d spec list" I did some time ago to decide between crop, 5d2 and 6d: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=11309.0
> 
> The list of things that are good about the 6d is quite long, the only important thing is to be sure the (few) shortcomings don't affect the main usage and as spending €1500 will be considered well, esp. now with the 70d on the market.



+1 I completely agree with your comments. I've run into one of your lists before (many great contributions indeed). The 6D is pretty much dead in the water regarding video, with video feeling like an afterthought on Canon's side in this case. I hope the OP has the chance to consider other options even now.

I've said it to you before, I like the 6D quite a bit at the $1700 -or less- price point (my sympathies, prices in Europe always seem scary to me). Canon (and Nikon and Sony for that matter) wants to make us pay for going FF. Whatever you get at whatever price, it has to be the right tool for the job, video isn't one for the 6D.


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## luciolepri (Oct 3, 2013)

I'd just like to add that many people shoot video using the standard picture style, which has a high nasty sharpening. Using the "Neutral" profile, with which sharpening is set to "0", things are already much better. And for video, sharpness is good enough this way, with a 6D.
Obviously, this doesn't change the fact that the 6D is not at all a good tool for video, it is just a little bit better than many people may think, watching at some videos posted online.


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## Janbo Makimbo (Oct 3, 2013)

I ama bit of a 'fanboy', I really do like my 6D, but then again I am not the kind of person who buys a pint glass and then moans because they cant fit a pint and a half in it!

As i have said before, i didn't just buy the camera and hoped it would be all good, I did the research, read the reviews and the spec and knew fully what I was getting.... Would be kind of stupid to moan after all that.

For every fanboy there appear to be ten times as many haters, most of those have not used the camera or in the case of 5D mkiii owners people who are a little pissed that a camera that cost a lot less than theirs, can in many instances take pictures that are as good if not better than theirs!!


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## LetTheRightLensIn (Oct 11, 2013)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> For every fanboy there appear to be ten times as many haters, most of those have not used the camera or in the case of 5D mkiii owners people who are a little pissed that a camera that cost a lot less than theirs, can in many instances take pictures that are as good if not better than theirs!!



Or maybe 6D owners wishing they could've gotten the 5D3??

5D3, especially with ML RAW, simply devastates the 6D for video quality. The fps is way better, UI better, shutter reaction better, stills buffer better and it clears much faster, etc. The 6D does have a bit better DR and behavior at ISO100 and is also slightly better at high iso stills too, it does have a modestly better stills sensor.


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## Janbo Makimbo (Oct 11, 2013)

LetTheRightLensIn said:


> Janbo Makimbo said:
> 
> 
> > For every fanboy there appear to be ten times as many haters, most of those have not used the camera or in the case of 5D mkiii owners people who are a little pissed that a camera that cost a lot less than theirs, can in many instances take pictures that are as good if not better than theirs!!
> ...


Correct it is a better VIDEO camera, but I take stiills and you can't say that it takes better still pics.... you wouldn't be JUST another pov 5D III that couldn't afford a 1DX are you ????


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## caruser (Oct 11, 2013)

The 5D3 has little moire because of its strong AA filter. If the 6D has more moire because of not using all the pixels for video then it's just cheap. If its because of a weaker AA filter then hooray, I'd greatly prefer my cameras completely without an AA filter!


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## captainkanji (Oct 11, 2013)

People use these things for video?  I'm a big fan of my 6D. I have to be, I couldn't afford a 5D3 ;D


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## Marsu42 (Oct 11, 2013)

caruser said:


> The 5D3 has little moire because of its strong AA filter.



Nope, the reason is that 22mp -> video res works way better as downsampling the 20mp of the 6d's alleged "new and enhanced" sensor, at least with the algorithm Canon uses. The aa filter also has a part, but much more minor than this and it also affects stills shooting - that's why Nikon has two versions of the d800.

Fyi all: I just read about a fix to remove aliasing from the 6d (I didn't try it myself though yet): *use Magic Lantern and shoot 720p raw at 5x zoom* ... it's a tight crop, but it's supposed to solve the problem for good. Read more on the Magic Lantern forums: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/


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## luciolepri (Oct 11, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Fyi all: I just read about a fix to remove aliasing from the 6d (I didn't try it myself though yet): *use Magic Lantern and shoot 720p raw at 5x zoom* ... it's a tight crop, but it's supposed to solve the problem for good. Read more on the Magic Lantern forums: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/



Yes, you record 1:1 from the sensor, so no line-skipping and so no aliasing issues, but...
1- With such a high crop, you convert a wide angle lens into a tele. This could be good to reduce your equipment, but it also means that you can forget about wide angle shots.
2- You see 5x, but you record 3x, so framing correctly is very tricky.
3- Definition it's obviously lower, it's like watching at a 100% crop of an image.
So, I wouldn't call it a "fix".


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