# Canon posts 40% profit gain, and 70% increase in mirrorless



## rrcphoto (Jul 27, 2017)

Canon 2Q financials are out. no great surprises.

2Q was down 5% in unit sales from 2017 2Q, however total units sold is around the same as last year

the big surprise was mirrorless growing 70% for the first half of 2017

http://www.canon.com/ir/finance/earnings/

I truely expect to see canon put alot more muscle behind mirrorless now, it's a serious growth market for them.

_The interchangeable-lens camera market continues to recover from the impact of last year’s
earthquake, particularly in developed countries. As such, the pace of market contraction has been
gradually slowing on a global basis. Within this business environment, we sold 1.43 million units in
the second quarter, as we limited the decline to 5%. And for the half, we secured the same level of
unit sales as in the first half of 2016.

In this quarter as well, sales remained strong, particularly for mirrorless cameras. Within this trend,
we grew sales of the EOS M6, a new mirrorless camera that has been highly rated not only for its
high image quality, but also for its compact and lightweight form factor. This camera was designed to
capture demand from people who, for example, are considering a step up to a camera with more
features and better performance. Including this factor, first half unit sales of mirrorless camera grew
more than 70% compared to the same period last year, leading to overall sales growth for
interchangeable-lens cameras. _

This also means that canon is outpacing gains this year in mirrorless overall, gaining marketshare.


Canon has sold 2.51 million ILCs so far this year; which probably puts them around 43-46% depending on June's CIPA numbers.


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## Khalai (Jul 27, 2017)

How can Canon possibly increase their marketshare in MILC is honestly beyond me ???


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## rrcphoto (Jul 27, 2017)

Khalai said:


> How can Canon possibly increase their marketshare in MILC is honestly beyond me ???



quite easy. the kits are very small, the lenses are cheap and good and they are selling to the masses and not the enthusiasts.

They are selling boatloads into Asia.

I think June's CIPA numbers are going to be very interesting to see how much canon has gained in the mirrorless market, if anything.


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## Mikehit (Jul 27, 2017)

Khalai said:


> How can Canon possibly increase their marketshare in MILC is honestly beyond me ???



What part do you find hard to understand?


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## bholliman (Jul 27, 2017)

Khalai said:


> How can Canon possibly increase their marketshare in MILC is honestly beyond me ???



Not surprising to me, the M5 and M6 are very competitive products with fairly broad appeal, either as a set-up from a P&S or cell phone or a 2nd/3rd body for enthusiasts.


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## Khalai (Jul 27, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> Khalai said:
> 
> 
> > How can Canon possibly increase their marketshare in MILC is honestly beyond me ???
> ...



It's just I've never felt Canon being commited into MILC opposed to Sony or Fuji...


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## Woody (Jul 27, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> Canon has sold 2.51 million ILCs so far this year; which probably puts them around 43-46% depending on June's CIPA numbers.



A year ago, Canon dominated with ~ 48% market shares for ILCs. This decline of ~ 4% is probably due to recovery of the other companies from the 2016 earthquake.

I am just curious who grabbed that ~ 4% of market shares: Nikon or Sony? ;D


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## Woody (Jul 27, 2017)

Khalai said:


> It's just I've never felt Canon being commited into MILC opposed to Sony or Fuji...



History has shown that having the latest and greatest does not guarantee a win in market shares.


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## Mikehit (Jul 27, 2017)

Khalai said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Khalai said:
> ...



They are concentrating on DSLR because that is their bread and butter but they are developing their mirrorless relatively quietly.
I think your scepticism, if that is the right word, mirrors (ha!) the feeling of quite few people. But it also begs the question 'When they do decide to do it seriously what will their products be able to achieve?'


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## Khalai (Jul 27, 2017)

Mikehit said:


> They are concentrating on DSLR because that is their bread and butter but they are developing their mirrorless relatively quietly.
> I think your scepticism, if that is the right word, mirrors (ha!) the feeling of quite few people. But it also begs the question 'When they do decide to do it seriously what will their products be able to achieve?'



It is scepticism. I've never felt that Canon is pushing its MILC offering hard enough, that's all. Once they go fullframe mirroless or fullframe hybrid OVF/EVF with DPAF, I'm all over it like no tomorrow


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## BillB (Jul 27, 2017)

Khalai said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > Khalai said:
> ...



Who else has touchscreen focussing?


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 27, 2017)

Khalai said:


> It's just I've never felt Canon being commited into MILC opposed to Sony or Fuji...



Sony and Fuji committed to MILC because they couldn't effectively compete with Canon and Nikon in the dSLR realm (Sony tried, and gave up).

The ILC market as a whole is still dominated by dSLRs, but it's clear that Canon is more than ready if/when that situation changes.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Jul 27, 2017)

Khalai said:


> Mikehit said:
> 
> 
> > They are concentrating on DSLR because that is their bread and butter but they are developing their mirrorless relatively quietly.
> ...



What Canon understands is that the market is not looking to spend large dollar amounts to get the very best. Sure, there are some who can afford to do that. Then, Sony is their own worst enemy, and their reputation for service is very poor. Again, some ignore that, they just buy another one?

The M5 and M6 along with the M10 seem to have hit a sweet spot sales wide based on price, performance, and Canons reputation for support and service. So, even though we would like to see high end mirrorless cameras, Canon is proceeding very cautiously and building up to a high end release based on what they are learning from the "M" series. I look for it to happen next year or by 2019.


I see one big issue with Canon's current technology, DPAF on my 5D MK IV is still slow, hunts sometimes, and burns thru batteries like no tomorrow. Buyers want 4K and other power consuming technologies, and for FF, they use even more power. The power management is where Sony seems to have better control, I'm sure Canon knows that. I also notice that noise seems to show up at lower ISO settings with my 5D IV sensor, that surprised me. I need more use to be sure of the noise perception. High ISO noise is about what I expected, its in the 800 range that I see or perceive more.


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## Joules (Jul 27, 2017)

Khalai said:


> It's just I've never felt Canon being commited into MILC opposed to Sony or Fuji...


That might change, yesterday I've scrolled through Canons Anual Report from 2016 to see where things might go. Under 2017 initiatives they write:

"Although demand for interchangeable lens digital cameras 
is waning, mainly in developed countries, the situation is 
improving gradually. In these circumstances, Canon seeks to 
capture a new user segment, using mirrorless cameras as a 
driver. We will also stimulate demand by further enhancing 
AF and video functions aimed at advanced amateurs. " (From Page 17)

Maybe the three mystery lenses will turn out to be expanding the EF-M lineup after all.

That might well be meaningless marketing talk, as I feel like Canon tries its hardest to keep its video functions to the bare minimum and AF is something which DPAF should cover well enough for most people. The 5DIV also get's a description that not many people would have chosen I think, so maybe the report is just a lot of nice sounding words for the share holders:

"the EOS 5D Mark IV full-size camera for advanced 
amateurs;" (From Page 16)


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## KeithBreazeal (Jul 27, 2017)

The M5 is a little camera to use and makes a great 2nd or 3rd body to carry. I can carry it and a few M lenses in my vest pocket for those casual shoots. The image quality is surprisingly good and find myself using it more than I anticipated. The ability to compose in the ELF and focus by running my thumb to select the focus point is really the best part. It isn't bad for night photography either.

jpg straight from the camera. ISO 5000 Samyang 8mm fisheye



Canon EOS M5 mirrorless with the Rokinon 8mm f2.8 fisheye lens unprocessed jpg © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr


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## dak723 (Jul 27, 2017)

KeithBreazeal said:


> The M5 is a little camera to use and makes a great 2nd or 3rd body to carry. I can carry it and a few M lenses in my vest pocket for those casual shoots. The image quality is surprisingly good and find myself using it more than I anticipated. The ability to compose in the ELF and focus by running my thumb to select the focus point is really the best part. It isn't bad for night photography either.



The M5 is plenty good enough as a *1st* camera - even for an enthusiast like me. Sold my 6D to get it and have had no regrets. As usual, if you are all into specs and bells and whistles, yes, Sony and Olympus (haven't used any other brands of mirrorless) will beat Canon, but in terms of IQ, ease of use, size and weight - and yes, the touch focus point - puts the M5 above the competition in my opinion. Lots of complaints that there aren't many lenses, but the ones they have are good to very good. The wide angle 11-22mm is better than any Canon FF wide angle that I have tried in terms of corner to corner sharpness.


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## rrcphoto (Jul 27, 2017)

KeithBreazeal said:


> The M5 is a little camera to use and makes a great 2nd or 3rd body to carry. I can carry it and a few M lenses in my vest pocket for those casual shoots.



as long as you aren't shooting sports, it's a pretty darn good first camera.

11-22, 18-150, 55-200, and 22 and 28 are all pretty damned good lenses to use and cover a pretty wide gambit. and they are cheap.

someone I know was looking at fuji but wanted a 18-150,esque zoom. So i showed them this picture, they bought an M the next day.

People complain about the lenses,etc or the lack thereof - but right when canon released the 11-22 I thought to myself, they are going to catch other companies by surprise.

the lenses are small, optimized for the platform and make a decent kit.


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## KeithBreazeal (Jul 27, 2017)

dak723 said:


> KeithBreazeal said:
> 
> 
> > The M5 is a little camera to use and makes a great 2nd or 3rd body to carry. I can carry it and a few M lenses in my vest pocket for those casual shoots. The image quality is surprisingly good and find myself using it more than I anticipated. The ability to compose in the ELF and focus by running my thumb to select the focus point is really the best part. It isn't bad for night photography either.
> ...



Yes, the 11-22mm was a shocker. The first few shots with it left me scratching my head- how could this little M lens be that good?

at 11mm



Canon EOS M5 11-22mm testing Bird Houses 0235 Web © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr


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## KeithBreazeal (Jul 27, 2017)

The little M5 is also "stackable" 



Canon EOS M5 Canon 300L f2.8 Canon 2X Converter © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr


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## Woody (Jul 28, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> someone I know was looking at fuji but wanted a 18-150,esque zoom. So i showed them this picture, they bought an M the next day.



I must confess the Canon EF-M 18-150 lens is one of the reasons I got an M5 for myself. Its weight of 300 g is highly attractive. In comparison:

Canon EF-S 18-200 f/3.5-5.6 IS = 595 g
Tamron 18-200 f/3.5-6.3 VC = 400 g
Fujifilm 18-135 f/3.5-5.6 OIS = 490 g
Sony 18-105 f/4 OSS = 427g
Sony 18-200 f/3.5-6.3 OSS = 460g 
Panasonic 14-140 mm f/3.5-5.6 OIS = 264 g
Olympus 14-150 mm f/4-5.6 II = 286 g


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## rrcphoto (Jul 28, 2017)

Woody said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > someone I know was looking at fuji but wanted a 18-150,esque zoom. So i showed them this picture, they bought an M the next day.
> ...



it's a great little lens. combine that with the 11-22 and it's a damned good travel kit.

to get the most out of the 18-150 though, use DLO (inside of DPP) .. and the results are excellent from the lens.


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## Woody (Aug 3, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> Canon has sold 2.51 million ILCs so far this year; which probably puts them around 43-46% depending on June's CIPA numbers.



CIPA June shipment numbers are out. Canon achieved 43.77% market shares for ILC in the Jan-Jun 2017 period.


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## Khalai (Aug 3, 2017)

Woody said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has sold 2.51 million ILCs so far this year; which probably puts them around 43-46% depending on June's CIPA numbers.
> ...



So? Under 50%? Canon is surely ******* then


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## Woody (Aug 4, 2017)

Woody said:


> I am just curious who grabbed that ~ 4% of market shares: Nikon or Sony? ;D



Nikon's latest financial results are also out:
http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm

Putting together CIPA, Nikon and Canon numbers together for Jan-Jun 2017, this is what we have:

Total ILC shipment = 5,734,678 units
Nikon = 1,350,000 = 23.5% market share
Canon = 2,510,000 = 43.8% market share
Canikon total = 67.3% market share

This is the first time in many, many years when Canikon's total market share dips below 70%. Sony is stealing market shares from Nikon.

Furthermore, based on Nikon's forecast, they only expect to achieve market share of ~ 25% for 2017. Canon should remain ~ 44%.

In Nikon's own words:

"In the Imaging Products Business, sales of mid-class cameras such as the D7500, a digital SLR camera released in June this year were firm, with unit sales increasing significantly in the U.S. Accordingly, the performance in revenue and operating profit exceeded the planned targets, but compared to the same period of the previous year, decreases in sales and profits were recorded due to a product mix change caused by the *stagnant demand for the D5 and the D500*."
- http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/pdf/2018/18_1qf_c_e.pdf


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## Sharlin (Aug 4, 2017)

Woody said:


> *"...stagnant demand for the D5 and the D500*."



Huh. I wonder why that is. Both seem to be excellent, highly capable cameras. And the D500 especially was long awaited.


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## reef58 (Aug 4, 2017)

Sharlin said:


> Woody said:
> 
> 
> > *"...stagnant demand for the D5 and the D500*."
> ...



I was under the impression the d500 and 200-500 were going to bankrupt Canon. Heck I even scratched my head considering that combo to replace my 7d2 and 400f5.6


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## unfocused (Aug 4, 2017)

reef58 said:


> Sharlin said:
> 
> 
> > Woody said:
> ...



Just speculating, but I would imagine that pent-up demand for both boosted sales last year, but once that pent-up demand had been met, sales leveled off ("stagnant demand"). The question is, did Nikon expect that to happen, or were they overly optimistic about their ability to sustain the initial level of sales. If the latter, then that shows poor management on their part, as no company should expect sales in the second year to keep up with initial demand.


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## ritholtz (Aug 4, 2017)

Nothing on DPR about Canon results and big jump on mirrorless sales. There are articles about amazing Sony financials though.;D


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## Jopa (Aug 9, 2017)

It seems like a good time to introduce a FF mirrorless, right, Canon?


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## rrcphoto (Aug 11, 2017)

Woody said:


> rrcphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Canon has sold 2.51 million ILCs so far this year; which probably puts them around 43-46% depending on June's CIPA numbers.
> ...



somewhere around there. yes.

however it's not entirely accurate because you are comparing CIPA shipped units versus Canon *sold* units.

they won't exactly line up because there's units unsold in inventory throughout the world, loaners, warranty replacements,etc.


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## rrcphoto (Aug 11, 2017)

ritholtz said:


> Nothing on DPR about Canon results and big jump on mirrorless sales. There are articles about amazing Sony financials though.;D


right?

and they wonder how come they get questioned about their motives.


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## sharpesharpe (Aug 12, 2017)

*5d Mark III Zoom lens EF 24-105mm*

I'm having trouble with all of my images coming out crooked.
It's a brand new body and a used lens.

I shoot with the grid in the view finder and even a level on my tripod but all my images seemed to be rotated a couple degrees counter clockwise.

any ideas out there?


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## eosuser1234 (Aug 12, 2017)

i look forward to an EOS m made with EOS firmware, and not based on powershot slow operating system.
Or Canon should develop a seperate eos M operating system.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 12, 2017)

eosuser1234 said:


> i look forward to an EOS m made with EOS firmware, and not based on powershot slow operating system.
> Or Canon should develop a seperate eos M operating system.



I have to agree. That's the one fly in the ointment for me when considering the M6, but I'm going to get it regardless.


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## zim (Aug 12, 2017)

*Re: 5d Mark III Zoom lens EF 24-105mm*




sharpesharpe said:


> I'm having trouble with all of my images coming out crooked.
> It's a brand new body and a used lens.
> 
> I shoot with the grid in the view finder and even a level on my tripod but all my images seemed to be rotated a couple degrees counter clockwise.
> ...



Raw or jpg SOC? If raw then you may need to look at your raw editor interpreting lens profile correctly?


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## zim (Aug 12, 2017)

KeithBreazeal said:


> The little M5 is also "stackable"
> 
> 
> 
> Canon EOS M5 Canon 300L f2.8 Canon 2X Converter © Keith Breazeal by Keith Breazeal, on Flickr



Done many air shows with that rig Keith. ;D


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## Woody (Aug 12, 2017)

rrcphoto said:


> however it's not entirely accurate because you are comparing CIPA shipped units versus Canon *sold* units.



Ooops. Didn't notice that. Implies if we go strictly by shipment numbers, Canon's market shares are probably much higher than 44%.


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