# People that don't shoot in manual...



## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

...annoy me even more than those that don't shoot in raw.

What is it that folk find so difficult about choosing an appropriate shutter speed, the DOF they desire and then selecting the necessary ISO?

Obviously you then make off's where necessary...

I actually tried Tv & Av once, what a palava. settings all over the place, complete lack of control of anything. I have a friend that only shoots in fully auto (a Nikon user) and to look at his exif data is painful... he is a beginner and his composure nor his focussing is spot on yet but he refuses to learn even the simplest things about taking control of his own photography and not letting a daft camera take control.

The only non-manual thing I'll accept is the EX580's ETTL and that's only because it's a right bastard to operate.

so yeah, sell me the other options I've got to work with...


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## RLPhoto (Jul 30, 2013)

I do drop into program mode when Im just shooting whatever. I don't feel like thinking about settings but just getting photos of stuff. Like at a museum or a gallery. 

Of course when I shoot seriously, its always M or Av, no auto ISO.


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## Grumbaki (Jul 30, 2013)

The need for speed makes me shoot Av.

When shooting daytime street candids time is of the essence. DoF too as composition is tridimensional. Iso is set to a fixed value. 1 dial instead of 2+some maths can make me get the shot that will be gone in half a second.

Now of course any situation where a dumb processor can make you miss the shot is time for M. But really what does it matter in my previous example if your shutter speed is 1/4000 or 1/1000 or 1/250? I prefer to work the joystick and nail the focus.

To be honest, what should piss you is refusal to learn, not preference to use a simpler method when conditions allow.


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## m (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> The only non-manual thing I'll accept is the EX580's ETTL and that's only because it's a right bastard to operate.



auto focus appears to be quite convenient
give it a try


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## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

m said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > The only non-manual thing I'll accept is the EX580's ETTL and that's only because it's a right bastard to operate.
> ...



And that's not so accurate all the time...


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## Rob Wiebe (Jul 30, 2013)

Hilarious statement. Why care what anyone uses for settings unless you are looking to problem solve a particular issue? If it works for you, great. When I talk to a new photographer or a beginner, I "suggest" some options.... 


PS, I love the auto ISO implementation on my 1DX


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## FunPhotons (Jul 30, 2013)

Seems strange to be annoyed at how other people like to shoot. 

Anyhow, I usually shoot Av but have been wanting to go M for consistency and control. What is your procedure? Use the built in meter, by eye, or other?


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## Welendlenses (Jul 30, 2013)

I've talked to a few photographers that shoot in manual only and they don't seem to understand the concept of Av. After you explain EV comp to them and they give it a try, they always say "I'll try using Av more often!" They're also never pro's so I'm surprised by the OP! 

*And to my understanding, auto modes can select speeds between 1/3 stops (i.e. 1/45th). Am I incorrect?*

I think Av/Tv is pointless with flash of course.


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## Jay Khaos (Jul 30, 2013)

Grumbaki said:


> To be honest, what should piss you is refusal to learn, not preference to use a simpler method when conditions allow.



+1

I use manual 90% of the time, but won't hesitate to use Av on my 5DIII in a pinch


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## Invertalon (Jul 30, 2013)

I practically live in AV mode... I only use M when needed, and it is quite rare. 

Try using manual mode during a live performance with constantly changing back and front lights, considerably changing the exposure. Your manual mode would be dead in the water. By the time you changed settings the light would change again. AV + exposure compensation and I am good to go. I can look at most scenes and have an idea what EV I will need prior to me taking the shot. I generally nail my exposures.

I hate "M-mode" snobs...


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## crasher8 (Jul 30, 2013)

Love Av for candids and street, besides those always M. What ANYONE ELSE DOES…..is none of my business. Having things like that 'upset' you, well there's meds for that.


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## Rocguy (Jul 30, 2013)

I taught myself how to get out of Auto mode on my camera by shooting in Av mode. But I was continually frustrated at what the camera was doing, bumping up the iso too high or too slow on the shutter speed. So I forced myself to go fully manual. Shooting anything other than in M now seems like a step backwards in technique. I do use autofocus tho! 

I understand when people say the need for speed on a certain shot means they'll use a non manual setting. But I don't like giving up control of the camera to the camera itself.


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## tron (Jul 30, 2013)

People who criticize others annoy me, especially for such a silly reason!

For me M-mode is only useful in two cases:

1. When I use my TS lenses and want to shift. I meter before shifting then put it to Manual.
The reason is that shifting fools the exposure meter.

2. When shooting flash. I want to control speed and aperture. It's as simple as that. Flash is used in TTL mode with no ... annoying - pun not intended - preflashes and arbitrary selections of speed and/or aperture. I guess people who use E-TTL should annoy me but surprisingly they don't ;D


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## rmt3rd (Jul 30, 2013)

Invertalon said:


> Try using manual mode during a live performance with constantly changing back and front lights, considerably changing the exposure. Your manual mode would be dead in the water. By the time you changed settings the light would change again. AV + exposure compensation and I am good to go. I can look at most scenes and have an idea what EV I will need prior to me taking the shot. I generally nail my exposures.
> 
> I hate "M-mode" snobs...



I disagree with this. I shoot live concerts on a professional level and always use manual. Because of the ever so changing lights, the camera is constantly choosing the wrong shutter speed for me. It's all about preference and what we are comfortable with. I shoot manual everything and I nail my exposures 95% of the time with concert photography and wedding photography. The more you practice, the better you get. I can look at most scenes and have an idea of what my shutter speed/aperture I will need prior to me taking a shot. This comes with practice. You practice with AV mode and I practice with M mode. You've mastered the AV mode and I've mastered the M mode. It's not about being a snob, it's about preferences and what works for you and your style and ability.


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## unfocused (Jul 30, 2013)

There is a reason "P" stands for professional. Haven't you ever heard of "f8 and be there?"

Get over it.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 30, 2013)

+1 for flash in M mode. AV-TV is dead weight when you need to control ambient/flash exposure.


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## paul13walnut5 (Jul 30, 2013)

Stills. Shoot how you want.

Video. Manual, including focus.


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## tomscott (Jul 30, 2013)

I like using AV, generally my shots come out spot on and use exposure compensation when needed. Makes getting those spur of the moments easier, especially at weddings. 

I think you use whats best for you, M is best when I know the camera will struggle otherwise AV works great for me.


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## AprilForever (Jul 30, 2013)

Rob Wiebe said:


> Hilarious statement. Why care what anyone uses for settings unless you are looking to problem solve a particular issue? If it works for you, great. When I talk to a new photographer or a beginner, I "suggest" some options....
> 
> 
> PS, I love the auto ISO implementation on my 1DX



Actually, I think that manual is the best mode for a beginning photographer. I shoot manual nearly all the time. I shoot mostly wildlife and landscapes. It is a matter of reading the light and making adjustments accordingly. 

I need a third wheel for my 7D, to adjust ISO, and I will be good!


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## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

unfocused said:


> There is a reason "P" stands for professional. Haven't you ever heard of "f8 and be there?"
> 
> Get over it.



why use f8 when f1.4 is available?


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## alipaulphotography (Jul 30, 2013)

AV mode for when the light conditions are changing rapidly such as on a sunny day. You will miss many moments trying to adjust shutter speed in situations like these.

Manual mode gets used when in low light and the camera is selecting shutter speeds lower than the length of the lens. eg - Camera selecting 1/60th when shooting with a 135mm.

It doesn't really matter about how people shoot with as long as they get results. The proof is in the pudding.


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## gferdinandsen (Jul 30, 2013)

I find your blanket statement more than a little judgemental. I almost always shoot in Aperture Priority mode using exposure compensation as needed. I don't have time to try to fiddle around and find just the right combination of Aperture and Time for my prefered aperture. I always shoot manual ISO. Frankly, it's just a hell of a lot easier letting the camera choose the exposure time value than trying to figure it out myself.


Also, I learned to shoot on film (EOS 1V). With transpariencies, if you do not nail the exposure on the head, say good bye to the shot, so I learned to let the camera do it's job.


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## kirispupis (Jul 30, 2013)

What a load of bull. I happen to shoot almost always in manual myself (manual exposure, focus, and lighting), but just because that meets my needs does not mean it translates to others'. There are times when I shift out of manual - let ETTL determine the flash, use AF, or even use P mode - and each of those decisions is dictated by the needs and the environment.

Every time some photographer comes out and dictates you "must" do something or you are a moron, it just illustrates the limits of their own understanding of photography.


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## rs (Jul 30, 2013)

For most of my commercial work, speed is of the essence. As a result I typically need to know the exposure is sorted out for me - composition and timing is far more important than having the satisfaction of knowing I tweaked every last little setting on the camera to technically pull it off.

When I need to control DoF (events such as weddings), I shoot Av, and tweak the ISO to suit to keep the shutter speed the right ball park as is needed. When I need to control shutter speed (such as sports), Tv. Same thing, keep an eye on aperture and tweak the ISO when needed. I also freely use exposure compensation to suit. Only when shooting with a flash do I use M.

To improve my speed and control, from time to time I would really like even more automation - the ability to use M, select the aperture and shutter speed for the task in hand, and have auto ISO with exposure compensation at the same time. That way when shooting action shots (or anything really), I can finely control DoF _and_ motion blur, and know the exposure will be worked out for me, with my desired compensation dialled in. To make that work fast it would require three control dials, so the current Canon bodies couldn't handle it even with a firmware update...


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## AJ (Jul 30, 2013)

For me, outdoors = AV, indoors = M


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## BoneDoc (Jul 30, 2013)

Let me ask all you manual people: Do you use the light meter on your camera, or do you eyeball the exposure?

Chances are, if you use the camera's meter, you're doing the same thing as the rest of us in Av or TV mode. They do carry more flexibility with changing exposure, and when we're chasing our kids around. I readily use the EV to get my picture to look the way I want it to, and within 3 stops, the results are about the same. Over time, you learn a few things, like underexpose by 2/3 stop when looking at darker folliages, etc. That's the same decision you're making when you choose to "underexpose" on M what your meter is telling you.

Let's say I'm doing portraits, I'm usually in Av mode, to control my DOF. As long as my shutter speed isn't too slow, that's fine with me. I'll even leave the ISO in auto, to give the camera flexibility with this. If I find that my shutter speed is too slow in general, then I'll take over the ISO and bump it up myself. Vice versa if I'm trying to slow the shutter down.

Same goes for action shots, except that I'm doing it in Tv now. If I don't like my typical aperture calculated by the camera, then I'll take over the ISO myself and choose accordingly.

Even in flash, I'll readily use TTL with either Av or Tv, or manual , but I'll add or subtract flash power to get the look I want. 

Even in manual mode, if you leve your ISO in auto, then the camera will find the "correct" exposure for you, and then you can adjust accordingly based on your previous shot. When the lighting is ALWAYS the same (such as shooting in a studio), then manual makes the most sense. But if I'm shooting at a dark shadow in one moment, and into the sun the next, I find manual to be too clunky for those purposes.

I realize there are car afficionados out there who love their stick shift, but why not take advantage of the dual clutch auto and all the extra speed it gives you .


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## schill (Jul 30, 2013)

People who think everyone should shoot the way they do...


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## ahsanford (Jul 30, 2013)

Wow, the OP really nailed it with this thread. Can we start talking about how we hate people who don't lift their pinkie when they drink wine? 

Av is a powerful tool for getting a shot quickly where you don't have a chance to make a correction and reshoot. Think non-studio places where you can't dial things in (which everywhere I shoot). Av + EV comp is effectively manual control without wasting time nailing exposure, or, conversely, a priority scheme that places exposure above shutter speed. If your scene is constantly changing, Manual shooting is simply slower and less consistent. 

This is just a question of what works for you. Av has been stellar for me for years. I only go M if I'm doing bulb or flash work.

- A


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## tron (Jul 30, 2013)

BoneDoc said:


> Let me ask all you manual people: Do you use the light meter on your camera,* or do you eyeball the exposure*?


 ;D ;D ;D


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## BoneDoc (Jul 30, 2013)

rs said:


> For most of my commercial work, speed is of the essence. As a result I typically need to know the exposure is sorted out for me - composition and timing is far more important than having the satisfaction of knowing I tweaked every last little setting on the camera to technically pull it off.
> 
> When I need to control DoF (events such as weddings), I shoot Av, and tweak the ISO to suit to keep the shutter speed the right ball park as is needed. When I need to control shutter speed (such as sports), Tv. Same thing, keep an eye on aperture and tweak the ISO when needed. I also freely use exposure compensation to suit. Only when shooting with a flash do I use M.
> 
> To improve my speed and control, from time to time I would really like even more automation - the ability to use M, select the aperture and shutter speed for the task in hand, and have auto ISO with exposure compensation at the same time. That way when shooting action shots (or anything really), I can finely control DoF _and_ motion blur, and know the exposure will be worked out for me, with my desired compensation dialled in. To make that work fast it would require three control dials, so the current Canon bodies couldn't handle it even with a firmware update...



You beat me to it


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## daltech (Jul 30, 2013)

Entertaining post Lewis.

Some people worry about if/when aliens will take them away, some other about other photographer's use of their gear.

Others mean and results are irrelevant to me, I'm having fun ! And enjoy the excellent photography many other photographers produce.


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## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

Walk into a situation, eg, a dark church, a well lit house with big windows, outside in the pouring rain... you'll pretty much know the combination you'll need. I haven't bought a bunch of primes that open up to 1.4 so I can shoot at f8 (unless it's wedding groups and then I might as well use a 24-105 to save on leg work). I know what aperture I want to work at, I know what shutter speed I can physically get away with, all that's left is ISO and it's the environment that dictates that. the only situation that's really going to change dramatically is on a sunny day with clouds going over. set ISO to 100 and adjust shutter speed accordingly...

Just saying...


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## AcutancePhotography (Jul 30, 2013)

I think we are missing the point of the OP's post. We were *supposed* to be impressed and awestruck with Lewis' awesomeness at shooting only manual while Kelby, Peterson, Freeman, and the rest of those noobs use multiple settings. What do they know?

Allow me to correct this.

(ahem)

Lewis, you are awesome for only shooting in manual. That takes a lot of skill and experience and truly shows that you are commited to both the art and science of photography.


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## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

daltech said:


> Entertaining post Lewis.
> 
> Some people worry about if/when aliens will take them away, some other about other photographer's use of their gear.
> 
> Others mean and results are irrelevant to me, I'm having fun ! And enjoy the excellent photography many other photographers produce.





to be fair, I thought I'd just stir it up a little. what works works. I guess it's a confidence thing. If you get the results you want from the way you shoot then kudos to you.


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## m (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> And that's not so accurate all the time...



More often than manual focus for me. Do you never use auto focus?


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## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

AcutancePhotography said:


> I think we are missing the point of the OP's post. We were *supposed* to be impressed and awestruck with Lewis' awesomeness at shooting only manual while Kelby, Peterson, Freeman, and the rest of those noobs use multiple settings. What do they know?
> 
> Allow me to correct this.
> 
> ...



only 16 years... and I'm still learning


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## ahsanford (Jul 30, 2013)

Glad we licked that problem.

When do we start the thread on how to pee standing up? I was really looking for some pointers there.

- A


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## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

m said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > And that's not so accurate all the time...
> ...



when I first got a dslr I never did as I didn't really understand/trust it, coming from a medium/large format film background. I do now though, I'd be daft not to. I've only been shooting weddings for the last couple of years and my style has changed dramatically since getting the 5Diii and the primes but spending the majority of my time in a studio environment, everything is pretty much controllable so there's no point using anything but manual. I am a product photographer by trade though so it's a pretty technical job... not as technical as the yesteryears of 5x4 film, polaroids, bellows extensions and working out exposures with exposure meters and a tape measure then waiting for half a day til the film is processed to see if you've got it spot on...


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 30, 2013)

rs said:


> When I need to control DoF (events such as weddings), I shoot Av, and tweak the ISO to suit to keep the shutter speed the right ball park as is needed. When I need to control shutter speed (such as sports), Tv. Same thing, keep an eye on aperture and tweak the ISO when needed. I also freely use exposure compensation to suit.



+1, but I will say that Av is much more effective on recent bodies where you can specify a minimum shutter speed, else with a wide angle lens the camera will pick a shutter speed that usually too slow when people are the subject(s).



LewisShermer said:


> to be fair, I thought I'd just stir it up a little. what works works.



Well then, allow me to reciprocate. Lots of *cough* experienced photographers use manual because that was a better approach, in those days of yore. What happens with an older camera when you set M mode and Auto ISO? ISO is fixed at 400 - pretty useless. But with our modern conveniences, like a functional Auto ISO in M mode, the ability to specificy a minimum shutter in Av mode, the ability to limit the range for Auto ISO, etc., the automatic modes are much easier to use. Get with the times! 

Personally, I shoot Av most of the time, Tv occasionally, M mainly for birds in flight and when shooting with studio flash, and almost always Auto ISO - the full customization of the 1D X allows me to restirct the automatically selected parameters to the range I need for the subject(s) I'm shooting. I like not having to think about the exposure, which the 1D X consistently nails if I want it to, and EC takes care of times when I want something different. But on the much less customizable EOS M, I use M mode with Auto ISO exclusively.

Point is, use the settings you need to get the shots you want. And don't worry about what settings others use...


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## Don Haines (Jul 30, 2013)

I select the mode based on the subject matter....

For instance, the first picture was shot in manual, and the second one was set to auto


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## cliffwang (Jul 30, 2013)

Everyone is different. I basically use M and AV mode about 50/50 time. If I don't need to care the shutter speed, I will use AV mode; otherwise, I use M mode. I don't think that's anything wrong when people AV/TV/P modes. Two of my colleagues using their 5D3 only in AV and P modes. I think that's okay if they feel the best way to take shoots.


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 30, 2013)

Don Haines said:


> For instance, the first picture was shot in manual, and the second one was set to auto



I *DON'T* want to see your picture of P mode...


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## cayenne (Jul 30, 2013)

BoneDoc said:


> I realize there are car afficionados out there who love their stick shift, but why not take advantage of the dual clutch auto and all the extra speed it gives you .



Oh man..you had the analogy going VERY well, until the end there with the car attempt....<P>


For a sports car, especially a high end sports car, you want a manual transmission...if not for resale value, but for performance. 

You're generally gonna get the better times and stats with manual over automatic, if you know how to drive the manual...

I've never owned a car with auto transmission, and only one car have I ever owned had more than 2 seats (that one was an '86 911 Turbo, but those rear seats aren't really useable for anything but 2x bags of groceries).....

LOL...anyway, good thoughts on the camera, but ugh...a sports car with auto transmission? A waste of good steel....


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## The_Arsonist (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm surprised to see everyone saying they only use flash in M mode. While I am normally in M for flash work, I sometimes shoot flash in Av mode with a locked ISO so that the changes in ambient light will be picked up automatically by the shutter changes. Of course, I guess that is assuming manual flash; many people probably stick to E-TTL?


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## RLPhoto (Jul 30, 2013)

The_Arsonist said:


> I'm surprised to see everyone saying they only use flash in M mode. While I am normally in M for flash work, I sometimes shoot flash in Av mode with a locked ISO so that the changes in ambient light will be picked up automatically by the shutter changes. Of course, I guess that is assuming manual flash; many people probably stick to E-TTL?



Using Av for flash and with a locked ISO will affect the one thing flash photographers need to control the most... shutter speed. If we can't control our shutter speed, we can't control how much ambient is mixed with our flash.

IE: Bounced flash mixing with ambient at a reception, event or mixed lighting situation.


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## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

cayenne said:


> BoneDoc said:
> 
> 
> > I realize there are car afficionados out there who love their stick shift, but why not take advantage of the dual clutch auto and all the extra speed it gives you .
> ...



OMGzzzz!!1!!one!1!!!!!! I'd never even drive an automatic! I am British though, and those things are quite rare here. Why would you let the car decide what gear you need to be in?

I'm possibly the only person that will survive when the robots take over, it appears.


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## Don Haines (Jul 30, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > For instance, the first picture was shot in manual, and the second one was set to auto
> ...


Sorry Neuro...... I just couldn't resist posting it....


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## insanitybeard (Jul 30, 2013)

I nearly always use manual.... but then that's a throwback to my younger days when I used a Pentax MX (Dad's), and that was the only choice you had.... it's what I'm most comfortable using, but it isn't ideal for everything- as has already been said, how about fast tracking of subjects in rapidly changing light conditions?


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## rpt (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > BoneDoc said:
> ...


+1
Driving an automatic is like shooting in the green rectangle mode. I must admit I used it (the green rectangle) in 2004 when I got my 300D first. Like Neuro said, the auto ISO works fairly well for me (though probably not as well as on the 1DX) so when I am lazy (which is more often than I'd care to admit) or when i am shooting where the light is going to vary, I set it on M, set the shutter speed and aperture and set ISO to auto and then frame and fire.


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## crasher8 (Jul 30, 2013)

You should not be a photographer. You have a destiny as a Life Coach. tell us more how we should live our lives! Write a book, Go on tour with Eckhart Tolle, hasn't Oprah called you yet?


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## J.R. (Jul 30, 2013)

rpt said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > cayenne said:
> ...



Is that so? I shoot manual mostly and not averse to shooting in the AV/TV mode. However, I do drive automatic cars but thats probably because I don't want to make a gazillion gear shifts while driving on the streets in New Delhi.


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## m (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> working out exposures with exposure meters



Sure, the exposure meter in the camera only sees the reflected light, which is not necessarily accurate.
But I'd say they do a pretty good job in the general case.

What's so different about having the camera adjust according to the meter reading itself automatically instead of doing it by hand?


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Each one have their own way of shooting. I do not think there is a definite right or wrong way. In the "good old days" most camera did not even have an built-in exposure meter. People are really shooting '"Full manual". The exposure is determined by the person behind the camera. Most of them are doing okay by doing exposure bracketing and wasted a lot of film. 
With the modern DSLR, we have all the modern convenience. Also you can adjust the picture at post. So the main thing is to get the picture and how we got it does not matter. Even the original poster is using exposure meter. That is part of the modern convenience.


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## dstppy (Jul 30, 2013)

I row my own in the car . . . but I ain't going to tell the cylinders which order to fire in . . . 

Speaking of mileage, I'm surprised how much this thread gotten . . .


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> I'm possibly the only person that will survive when the robots take over, it appears.



Not quite...you'll have the Amish and the Luddites for company.


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## crasher8 (Jul 30, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > I'm possibly the only person that will survive when the robots take over, it appears.
> ...



It's about time those two groups had a new Great Leader.


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## Wilmark (Jul 30, 2013)

While I dont think the OP deserves a reply, i will still give one, because like the Raw issue there are a lot photogs who go round misconception that because they insist on shooting raw or fully manual makes them stand out. This is more of a bigoted question rather than one about photography. Photography is not about equipment and settings. But I will respond from the equipment position. I have been in many situations where I have lost the shot due to adjusting the camera. So unless you are in control of the situation - like still life or shooting a model, you want the quickest most convenient set up for each scenario. Personally I only work in manual when i am in control of the lighting. In general I would use AV during the day when the light is good and use TV when the lighting is suppressed. Other than that I would use specific settings beyond that when there is the need for a specific shot - for example depth of field and to show a certain amount of motion or long exposure etc. To believe that you always need to be in manual OR even get annoyed when others do it is truly something else NOT Photography - possibly one that requires psychiatric intervention.

BTW - did you manually apply that 'instagram look' that many of your photos on your website have one by one shot by shot - or did you create a filter and just apply them 'automatically'?


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## Viggo (Jul 30, 2013)

First off, I'm glad you only get annoyed over important things :

I don't shoot manual, except with flash, because that would simply cause a lot of wrongly exposed shots for me. Why on earth would I for example limit my shutter to 1/500s (In M) if the light suddenly changes and I could have 1/4000s? A conert for example, would you rather shoot 1000 images at 1/250s and hope, or would you like to have those explosive images where all the light go boom and the artist jumps perfectly frozen?

The way I shoot is always in Av and auto-iso and I set my shutterspeed range. Out with the kids, aperture set for dof, usually wide open. Auto-iso between two values I'm comfortable with and limit my lower shutter to 1/1000s or 1/2000s. 

That way I always have perfectly exposed images, without motion blur, in the shadow, in a playhouse and out in the sun, all in the same 12 fps burst, try to dial that fast in M.... I also have shot so much with the 1dX it's very easy to know when to turn the right thumb a little for a little EC. (My cam is set to have 0 EV to +5/8)


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## BoneDoc (Jul 30, 2013)

Slightly OT here, but you guys do realize that a DUAL CLUTCH auto with shift faster than your standard stick shift right?

FWIW, I drive a manual transimision car. My first one was that way also. But the new gen dual clutch auto will beat it hands down. Even then, with paddle shifters, you can still be in control of which gear does what.  

http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sport%20Cars/CurrentRange/458-Italia/Innovation_Technologies/Pages/Article-090914-458-Italia-Gearbox.aspx

Now back to our regularly programed interruptions and distractions.


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## kphoto99 (Jul 30, 2013)

My first SLR was an AE-1, so I was used to Tv mode, now I mostly use P, here is why:
On my camera when in the P mode you can change the shutter speed with the shuttle wheel.
This way I get to choose the speed or aperture that you want and the camera adjusts the other setting for each shot. I find this the fastest way of shooting. Life is to quick to make tons of adjustments all the time.

The M mode is reserved for when I have lots of time to setup the shot and make sure everything is correct.


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## rs (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > BoneDoc said:
> ...


I prefer manuals, but I would settle for an F-Type


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## JohanCruyff (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> _*People that don't shoot in manual...*_
> ...annoy me even more than those that don't shoot in raw.


 
Talking about fetish, I find annoying  people who don't use lens hoods. 


I shoot AV (+ exposure compensation if needed) 90% of the time on my 5D classic.
Recently, thanks to Auto-ISO on my EOS M, I started to shoot mainly in Manual mode (just because the shutter speed calculated by AV is generally too slow, and because Neuroanatomist suggested so).


----------



## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

Wilmark said:


> While I dont think the OP deserves a reply, i will still give one, because like the Raw issue there are a lot photogs who go round misconception that because they insist on shooting raw or fully manual makes them stand out. This is more of a bigoted question rather than one about photography. Photography is not about equipment and settings. But I will respond from the equipment position. I have been in many situations where I have lost the shot due to adjusting the camera. So unless you are in control of the situation - like still life or shooting a model, you want the quickest most convenient set up for each scenario. Personally I only work in manual when i am in control of the lighting. In general I would use AV during the day when the light is good and use TV when the lighting is suppressed. Other than that I would use specific settings beyond that when there is the need for a specific shot - for example depth of field and to show a certain amount of motion or long exposure etc. To believe that you always need to be in manual OR even get annoyed when others do it is truly something else NOT Photography - possibly one that requires psychiatric intervention.
> 
> BTW - did you manually apply that 'instagram look' that many of your photos on your website have one by one shot by shot - or did you create a filter and just apply them 'automatically'?



Not only did you give me a reply that I did not deserve, you also gave me your opinion on my character, your life story, your shooting technique, a sleight on my mental disposition and a critique (rather negatively) on my photography and processing skills. I'd like to first of all thank you for your unsolicited advice on the aforementioned but just to clarify, that 'instagram look' is achieved by using curves to mimic the cross processing technique popularised in the 70's fashion world. It's quite a nice look I personally feel as images straight from a digital camera, especially the colours, seem to lack a certain romance. I just try and put the romance back into it 

You seem to have taken my light hearted banter a little personally. If you point me in the direction of your online work I can also judge accordingly and give you appropriate feedback?


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## rs (Jul 30, 2013)

JohanCruyff said:


> Talking about fetish, I find annoying  people who don't use lens hoods.


I find it amusing when people shoot with the lens hood reversed on the lens. Is it just me, or are they mostly Nikon shooters? :


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## BoneDoc (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> Wilmark said:
> 
> 
> > While I dont think the OP deserves a reply, i will still give one, because like the Raw issue there are a lot photogs who go round misconception that because they insist on shooting raw or fully manual makes them stand out. This is more of a bigoted question rather than one about photography. Photography is not about equipment and settings. But I will respond from the equipment position. I have been in many situations where I have lost the shot due to adjusting the camera. So unless you are in control of the situation - like still life or shooting a model, you want the quickest most convenient set up for each scenario. Personally I only work in manual when i am in control of the lighting. In general I would use AV during the day when the light is good and use TV when the lighting is suppressed. Other than that I would use specific settings beyond that when there is the need for a specific shot - for example depth of field and to show a certain amount of motion or long exposure etc. To believe that you always need to be in manual OR even get annoyed when others do it is truly something else NOT Photography - possibly one that requires psychiatric intervention.
> ...



lol... can we all just hug and get along ?


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## tpatana (Jul 30, 2013)

Lol, that's interesting thing to get mad about.

On my XTi, I used 95% Av.

On my 7D, I used 50/50 Av and M

On my 5D3, I use 90% M (with Auto-ISO), but there's situations when Av is much better. Usually in bright but changing conditions, I set F and ISO on Av, and let the camera deal with shutter speed, e.g. F2.8/ISO100 and then shutter speed around 1/400....1/4000, depending on the shot.

If OP can't do that, it's his loss. Many times you can't freeze the moment to dial in proper exposure, so it's MUCH better to get the shot with the exposure the camera feels good, instead of dialing in the correct exposure and miss the shot.


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## thepancakeman (Jul 30, 2013)

I guess I'm just going to have to annoy you then, unless someone can enlighten me how to manually shoot cyclists traveling at 30+ mph (50+ kph for you non-yanks) going both directions on opposite sides of the street (it's an out-and-back time trial, for you cycling fans) under shifting cloud conditions and alternating shadows with a very near 100% hit rate. ???


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## RAKAMRAK (Jul 30, 2013)

It annoys me immensely when people keep on wasting time on useless forum posts instead of actually taking photographs.... Now I am annoying myself.....


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## Famateur (Jul 30, 2013)

cayenne said:


> BoneDoc said:
> 
> 
> > I realize there are car afficionados out there who love their stick shift, but why not take advantage of the dual clutch auto and all the extra speed it gives you .
> ...



I'm going to have to agree with BoneDoc on this one. When it comes to "high end" sports cars (Ferrari, Aston Martin, et cetera), a good double-clutch auto will usually smoke a manual shift for pure speed. Add the flappy paddles, and you can still choose when the shifting takes place, if you prefer. Along with the fancy gearboxes, there's less and less steel to waste on modern performance cars. Lots of aluminium (aluminum for this yankee), magnesium, carbon fiber... 

Of course, I'll probably never own such a machine. That said, I personally prefer a manual transmission.  I enjoy feeling more involved in the driving experience and appreciate the extra control on icy winter roads here in Utah. As with camera gear, to each his own.

I do find it funny when someone says one thing is "better" than another, and then moments later acknowledge that they've never owned the other. Perhaps if your next two-seater is a Ferrari 458 Italia, you might decide you like the double-clutch.


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > BoneDoc said:
> ...


You can always select your gear manually on the automatic transmission


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## jasonsim (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > There is a reason "P" stands for professional. Haven't you ever heard of "f8 and be there?"
> ...



This thread is a bit unnerving as some folks seem to think that their way of shooting is the only - best - proper way. Sometimes there is a need to use full manual mode. Other times, I want to have shutter be the priority, especially when shooting birds in flight, where the light on the bird might change as I track it. This is where using DSLR as a tool allows me to concentrate on framing, position of the bird etc.

I am never in fully Auto, but use Av, Tv, and M regularly. Not sure why this would eat away at you that everyone, at varying levels of expertise, would use modes other than M (manual). 

BTW, sometimes I have a 35mm f/1.4 on my body and need to get more depth of field for say a group shot. So, stopping the aperture down to f/4, 5.6 or 8, might be appropriate.


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## Famateur (Jul 30, 2013)

For those who have been shooting manually for eons, it might not occur to you that, in addition to the speed and convenience for some situations already covered in this thread, the Av/Tv/P modes serve as baby-steps for beginners who are intimidated by everything they have to juggle: composition, timing, lighting, focal length, aperture, shutter speed, ISO, et cetera.

While I shoot mostly manually now, I remember how alien all of these things seemed, and it was overwhelming at the time. Perhaps I'm just a slow learner, but it took a while before I was comfortable knowing immediately how each factor affects the captured image -- at least fast enough to use them effectively in the moment. As long as these "semi-auto" modes don't become a crutch that holds a photographer back, I think they're an excellent way of eating the exposure elephant one bite at a time -- in addition to legitimately useful application by "pros", of course.

Shoot what you have, how you want to, and enjoy the photographs you make. Or don't -- it's none of my beeswax anyway...


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## schill (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> ...annoy me even more than those that don't shoot in raw.
> 
> What is it that folk find so difficult about choosing an appropriate shutter speed, the DOF they desire and then selecting the necessary ISO?
> 
> ...





LewisShermer said:


> You seem to have taken my light hearted banter a little personally. If you point me in the direction of your online work I can also judge accordingly and give you appropriate feedback?



While I would never take a thread like this seriously, there really isn't anything in your first post that implies you are being light-hearted. It's actually pretty antagonistic. You basically insulted a lot of people (telling them they don't know what they are doing) and then demanded that they prove themselves to you.

Reminds me of an ongoing thread right now over on dpreview where the op wants to know why everyone doesn't use an 18-200 superzoom and insists that changing lenses is not a good idea. His replies mostly state that he is talking about "for him" but the original post did not and he keeps defending his position by saying too many people use multiple lenses when they should stick to a superzoom.

Both threads are mildly entertaining, but pretty useless. I don't expect either op really thought they were useful (at least I hope not).

As far as cars go, I'll stick to my automatic. I'm just not that into driving - the car just gets me from one place to the other. Cameras are a lot more interesting.


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## tpatana (Jul 30, 2013)

thepancakeman said:


> traveling at 30+ mph (50+ kph for you non-yanks)



A: Most non-yanks know the conversion, although I also tend to include both units to help the readers.

B: The correct would have been km/h, not kph. Just saying.


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## Wilmark (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> just to clarify, that 'instagram look' is achieved by using curves to mimic the cross processing technique popularised in the 70's fashion world. It's quite a nice look I personally feel as images straight from a digital camera, especially the colours...


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## thepancakeman (Jul 30, 2013)

tpatana said:


> thepancakeman said:
> 
> 
> > traveling at 30+ mph (50+ kph for you non-yanks)
> ...



A: Well, that's just because y'all are more globally intelligent. I continue to remain baffled at the American (or is it "United Statesian" since everyone across 2 continents are "American") inability to grasp killermeters.

B: Well, yeah, if you want to be SI compliant, but kph was first (per the source of all truth, wiki): ;D

1889: "k. p. h."
1895: "km:h"
1898: "km/h"
1899: "km./hr." 
1911: "K.P.H."
1914 "km. hr."
1915: "km/hour"
1915: "km.-hr."
1916: "km. per hour"
1933: "KPH"


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## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

schill said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > ...annoy me even more than those that don't shoot in raw.
> ...



It was that last line in my original post that I thought made light of it... I do shoot mostly (99.9999%) on manual (not manual focus) but my initial wish was that people would say that they shoot a particular way and what the advantages are to that. I know a lot of people like to keep their settings & post production secret but I thought we could discuss it anyway. It certainly appears that I have people's attention. Throw out a wild statement in your opening bit of bravado, then you have your audience...

What we have learnt thus far is that for moving objects in varying out door light Tv is favoured. When situations appear to be constant and bright, Manual is favoured. When certain conditions are required, where a certain Dof and shutter speed are desired then Auto-ISO is the favourite.

There are almost infinite ways of photographing the same scene, personally of late I've exposed for the subject/people of the scene and blown out most of the background as the 5Diii allows this due to the high ISO capabilities. This is something I never would have done with my 7D, maximum 1600iso and then a bounced or non-direct fill-in flash would light the subject. sometimes I'd even have a low ISO, a long-ish shutter speed and direct flash so I'd get points of light and only slight ambient that would cast a colour as if it were floating over a scene. (that technique is particularly good for bands in really small pub type venues).

So my intention was not to insult those incapable (  ) of using manual, nor do I think it's something to show off about (it's something that is now very much second nature to me) I simply wanted to read little anecdotes of what folks prefer and why... hence the "sell me the other options I've got to work with..."

Also, I don't think in any one of my comments, I've insulted anyone... even the Americans


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## bholliman (Jul 30, 2013)

FunPhotons said:


> Seems strange to be annoyed at how other people like to shoot.
> 
> Anyhow, I usually shoot Av but have been wanting to go M for consistency and control. What is your procedure? Use the built in meter, by eye, or other?



+1

I shoot AV 70% of the time, M maybe 25% and TV 5%. When shooting AV I manually set ISO and am continually watching my shutter speed to make sure it's in the range I want it to be. I use M in low or challenging light conditions and always for flash.

I learned photography on fully manual film cameras, so understand very well how to shoot in M. But AV and TV give me nearly the same level of control and are faster and easier to use, so why not?


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## KyleSTL (Jul 30, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > BoneDoc said:
> ...


While I agree manuals are desirably for multiple reasons I have to correct an agregious error in cayenne's comment. He is comparing manual to the classic automatic transmission and he is absolutely correct that a synchromesh manual is faster than a 'normal' automatic, however, the original comment was comparing a manual transmission to a dual-clutch auto (similar to transmissions found in almost all forms of high-performance racing nowadays). Even the 'consumer grade' DCATs are faster than their manual contemporaries. Look up almost any modern performance car and the 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times, etc will be better with the DCATs, examples:

Porsche 911 Carerra S - 
Manual - 4.3 sec (0-60 mph)
PDK - 4.1 sec (0-60 mph)

Ferrari F430 (2005) -
Manual - 21.65 sec (1000 meters)
'F1' Gearbox - 21.60 sec (1000 meters)

Sorry, it's a little hard to come up with cars nowadays that offer both options for a single model, most companies are either going all DCAT (Ferrari, Lambo) or staying with only Manual for each model. Now if we are comparing modern 'normal' automatics to non-synchromesh transmissions I would bet on the new autos, all other things being equal.


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## JPAZ (Jul 30, 2013)

thepancakeman said:


> 1889: "k. p. h."
> 1895: "km:h"
> 1898: "km/h"
> 1899: "km./hr."
> ...



And all along, I learned it was "klicks" and not KPH or anything like that. So what about knots (for the nautically inclined)?

As someone who once used an Argus rangefinder with manual everything, I don't know what the big deal is. Yes, with full manual one can achieve an infinite range of combinations to get a photo they want, but using Tv or Av or (heaven forbid) P / Auto has its place. What matters is taking a good photograph and not so much how one achieves that output.


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## Janbo Makimbo (Jul 30, 2013)

You guys seriously need to get out more and meet people..... Preferably of the opposite sex!!


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## unfocused (Jul 30, 2013)

Well, I suspect that in the future Lew will be more likely to remember to engage brain before engaging keyboard. Unfortunate, because he is a good photographer.

To expand a bit on my earlier snippy comment. I spent about 30 years using "manual" on my F1. After decades of trying to manage five controls with two hands (shutter speed, f/stop, focus, film advance and shutter release)...I am sooo over manual.

The only thing I like better than the magical automation of DSLRs is the incredible magic of ETTL. You won't know what I mean unless you actually had the "joy" of trying to shoot with a potato masher strobe that took forever to recycle, had batteries that always died halfway through every assignment, used an electrical cord that broke if you looked at it and if everything did actually work, you had to guestimate how far away the subject was and then pray that you actually got an image (Oh, and don't forget to set the shutter speed dial to 1/60th or you are totally screwed and won't know it until you develop the film). 

Yeah, the new technology can be overwhelming, but those good old days pretty much sucked.

Program, Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority, Manual – they'll all get you to the same place.


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## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

Wilmark said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > just to clarify, that 'instagram look' is achieved by using curves to mimic the cross processing technique popularised in the 70's fashion world. It's quite a nice look I personally feel as images straight from a digital camera, especially the colours...



slightly tongue in cheek... I just like messing with stuff, just slightly though. There can be a happy medium when cross processing. I'm actually about half way through processing a wedding from saturday and the way I'm doing the raws is quite weird. I'm almost maxing out the contrast, bringing the highlights down to -100, using the exposure to control the white clipping and the shadows for overall exposure. I have to take a fair bit of saturation out though but compensating for that by upping the vibrance. It kinda looks cross processed already without uploading them to my phone, sending them through instagram and then to my portfolio... workflow refined


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## LewisShermer (Jul 30, 2013)

Janbo Makimbo said:


> You guys seriously need to get out more and meet people..... Preferably of the opposite sex!!



I met a girl of the opposite sex once. It all ends in tears. Every time. I'm happy sticking with something that I have slight control over for the mean time.


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## Dukinald (Jul 30, 2013)

unfocused said:


> and won't know it until you develop the film).
> 
> Program, Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority, Manual – they'll all get you to the same place.



+1

Yeah P gets me to where I want to be most of the time : I can just turn the shuttle wheel to program shift in case I need a diff shutter speed or aperture value. 

I do have a full understanding of how the different parameters (av tv iso ec etc) affect the image , I just use what is most convenient for the situation and what I'm trying to achieve.


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## pj1974 (Jul 31, 2013)

Wow...what a read (I've skim read this thread). I'll give the OP the benefit of the doubt - and as he's stated in latter posts - that he was not intending to undermine other (good) photographers. It highlights the need to be very careful with wording (I do think his wording could have been softer and more tactfully and definitely more humbly phrased). 

I began photography a few decades ago... and for me photography is a passion, hobby, artistic release, enjoyment of the technical, and opportunity to share photos with friends - both locally and around the world. I've lived in a number of countries, speak 5 languages, worked in various jobs including: leading charity projects in developing countries to business / marketing consulting to Christian mission work to advertising and market & social research and now am in management in federal Government - here in Australia. I've also volunteered in numerous situations for decades.

Not much 'phases' me. I've seen lots in my life - and have read, communicated and been part of communities that have shaped my life and world view. At times my directness is a bit too much for some people, so I try to learn how to speak, live and act in a way that is non offensive, while also realising that we can't please everyone. I aim to be honest with friends true to myself / my values, and seek God's grace and help with that - I know that there will be room to improve till the day I die. 

I've looked over the OPs photos on his website, some of them I think exposure and dof are well controlled, but in others there can be improvements. He's doing ok for a young photographer, and still has areas to learn, develop and improve skills in. I say this without judging the post processing options he has chosen.

When it comes to assisting others with photography and/or sharing ideas, I do that regularly: many people join me for 'photo outing days', and on request I critique a lot of friends' photos. There are many people who also inspire me with their photography, techniques, artistic ability and skills. Some photos, while technically 'excellent' don't 'speak' to me. I dislike 'non-realistic' colours, effects, frames, etc. Just give me what I see, but capture it in a way that tells the story clearly, with strong powerful accurate images (actually very hard to do). Readers might be able to deduct that I'm not in to fashion / studio photography, for example. ;D

As to my own shooting style, I prefer Av about 85% to 90% of the time. In certain situations (eg some sports, or moving subjects) I use Tv. I also use M - eg for some flash situations, panoramas, night exposures, etc. I've learned how to use Av (along with exposure compensation) to be a very powerful as extremely quick to use solution - being able to control DOF and shutter speed. At times I use Auto ISO (probably about 30%), but most times I set ISO manually.

I hope my input here was helpful, folks. Enjoy your photography all! 8)

Regards

Paul


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## michael6liu (Jul 31, 2013)

I still love shooting in AV even if it annoys you lol. To me, that is the most efficient way.


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## rpt (Jul 31, 2013)

J.R. said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > LewisShermer said:
> ...


  
Well, if driving an automatic is ok, and in the future owning and using a driverless car is ok, why trash the green rectangle or the P mode...


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## neuroanatomist (Jul 31, 2013)

rpt said:


> Well, if driving an automatic is ok, and in the future owning and using a driverless car is ok, why trash the green rectangle or the P mode...



Because while I, and occasionally others, derive enjoyment from my creative expression in my photographic style, local police and state troopers would be much less appreciative of creative expression in my driving style. 8)


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## rpt (Jul 31, 2013)

neuroanatomist said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > Well, if driving an automatic is ok, and in the future owning and using a driverless car is ok, why trash the green rectangle or the P mode...
> ...


Apples and Momordica charantia...


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## BozillaNZ (Jul 31, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> ...annoy me even more than those that don't shoot in raw.



Here you go: Who cares what do you think? I shoot Av because I like it.

Also only a wimp uses ETTL flash, real man uses M-A-N-U-A-L!


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## Marsu42 (Jul 31, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> +1 for flash in M mode. AV-TV is dead weight when you need to control ambient/flash exposure.



It is, could you elaborate? You control ambient via ec, imho Av is very handy when lighting changes on every other shot, esp. if you're able to select a min. shutter speed (newer cameras or Magic Lantern).



neuroanatomist said:


> but I will say that Av is much more effective on recent bodies where you can specify a minimum shutter speed



Did I mention Magic Lantern does this for the rest of us ("ML Auto ISO"), providing the level of control like the newer and expensive cameras (min/max iso, min. shutter in av, min. aperture in tv, ec on m) ... but you wouldn't know about programming your camera, would you, mr. 1dx  ?

For all the M mode fanatics: The newest ml builds have a "autoexpo function", you can define your own aperture curve and then some, imho this a terrific feature: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7208.0


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## shutterwideshut (Jul 31, 2013)

J.R. said:


> Is that so? I shoot manual mostly and not averse to shooting in the AV/TV mode. However, I do drive automatic cars but thats probably because I don't want to make a gazillion gear shifts while driving on the streets in New Delhi.



+1. I shoot manual most of the time but may shoot in Av/Tv modes depending on the situation. Likewise, I would prefer manual transmission cars when driving in the countryside but would prefer to drive automatic cars when driving in downtown Manila! :-\


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## rpt (Jul 31, 2013)

shutterwideshut said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > Is that so? I shoot manual mostly and not averse to shooting in the AV/TV mode. However, I do drive automatic cars but thats probably because I don't want to make a gazillion gear shifts while driving on the streets in New Delhi.
> ...


Stick shift. Stick shift. Stick shift. And auto ISO. 
See you people later. Gotta go to my day job...


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## jdramirez (Jul 31, 2013)

As with all things it depends on the light. When I'm out and about shooting, I tend to focus on the composition and making sure my subject is in focus. Based on the type of light I'm using, I may decide to shoot in manual, indoors with consistent light controlling aperture (always), shutter speed and iso. But if it is a partly cloudy day and clouds are passing over the sun and then just as quickly going passed, then I will go with aperture priority and rely on the camera to pay attention that the sun was just covered up by 1/2 a cloud. Otherwise, I'll wind up with images that are either blown out and overexposed or underexposed. 

Then there are times where I will just focus on shutter speed and aperture and I let the iso vary. I've done that before.. .but I don't recall the situation.

For the longest time, I shot only in .jpg... and that wasn't because I was lazy, but because I didn't have software that recognized .cr2. Then i got LR4 and I couldn't figure out how to import... Click and drag didn't work and neither did open with lr when I right clicked. It was annoying... but after I did... then that is all I shoot in now. 

So as with most things, it is a learning curve. I can proudly say, I have never shot in full auto.


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## J.R. (Jul 31, 2013)

rpt said:


> J.R. said:
> 
> 
> > rpt said:
> ...



That is why I got the 5D3 and not the 1DX so that I could shoot in the green rectangle mode ... oh wait, that is used when I need to hand over the camera to someone else to take my picture ...


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## dgatwood (Jul 31, 2013)

rmt3rd said:


> I disagree with this. I shoot live concerts on a professional level and always use manual. Because of the ever so changing lights, the camera is constantly choosing the wrong shutter speed for me. It's all about preference and what we are comfortable with. I shoot manual everything and I nail my exposures 95% of the time with concert photography and wedding photography.



Agreed. When I'm in that sort of environment where I'm sitting in one place for hours and have plenty of time to set settings, I'm likely to shoot full manual, sometimes tweaking aperture to achieve the desired DOF (if there's enough light to give me any real flexibility without smearing motion too badly).

I find shooting in full manual to be doubly important for things like stage plays where the lighting can be uneven and faces are frequently blown out with automatic exposure.

For day-to-day shooting, though, I'm usually rushed and have no more than a few seconds seconds to get a shot, so I stay in P mode because getting the shot at all is more important than tweaking the shot to maximize IQ or get a desired DOF. Or maybe I'm just lazy. Hard to say.


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## RLPhoto (Jul 31, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > +1 for flash in M mode. AV-TV is dead weight when you need to control ambient/flash exposure.
> ...



ISO and aperture will affect both the ambient and flash exposure. The only control that affects just ambient is shutter speed. Lets take a indoor dance floor at a reception for example and your bouncing flash around. 

So if your in Av... Your letting the camera decide how much ambient light will be in the exposure. A pain in the butt if light is constantly changing then you'll end up with a Coalminers cave and/or swirly lights at the cameras whim because it can be decieved by a bright spotlight or something else. 

If you use Tv, then you control the ambient exposure but your DOF will be all over the place.

Now ETTL II does a good job at controlling how much flash to let out and not burning the subject white, but it has no control how much ambient light will be mixed in. You can try -1 expo comp and +1 flash comp to get something ok, but it still gets in the damn way if the meter catches a bight light source. I found it a frustrating experience to keep dialing in comp instead of just setting it once and use the flash ETTL. 

Now outdoors overcast, you can get away with Av and flash because the light stays the same but you still give the ambient control to the camera....


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## deleteme (Jul 31, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Now ETTL II does a good job at controlling how much flash to let out and not burning the subject white, but it has no control how much ambient light will be mixed in. You can try -1 expo comp and +1 flash comp to get something ok, but it still gets in the damn way if the meter catches a bight light source. I found it a frustrating experience to keep dialing in comp instead of just setting it once and use the flash ETTL.
> 
> Now outdoors overcast, you can get away with Av and flash because the light stays the same but you still give the ambient control to the camera....



Precisely why I stay on manual in receptions and other event work. ETTL flash (or any TTL or auto flash scheme) CAN be good but so frequently leads the camera astray. In film days we say wild swings on exposure but as we were on neg film we were saved by the lab.
This gave us a false sense of security in the accuracy of ETTL. In digital we chimp and adjust thus defeating the speed advantage allegedly afforded by the technology.

Anybody remember the Nikkor 45 GN lens? Set the guide number of the flash and the lens would adjust aperture based on focus distance. Perfect exposure every time. Nice sharp pancake lens to boot.


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## AprilForever (Jul 31, 2013)

alipaulphotography said:


> AV mode for when the light conditions are changing rapidly such as on a sunny day. You will miss many moments trying to adjust shutter speed in situations like these.
> 
> Manual mode gets used when in low light and the camera is selecting shutter speeds lower than the length of the lens. eg - Camera selecting 1/60th when shooting with a 135mm.
> 
> It doesn't really matter about how people shoot with as long as they get results. The proof is in the pudding.



Haven't yet. It takes about 0.5 second to change two stops of shutter speed. Takes maybe two-three seconds to adjust both shutter and ISO.

Twill take too much time is an excuse to many people to not learn how to read light and exposure demands. It's not hard, I learned about it reading Birds As Art (birdsasart-blog.com).


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## verysimplejason (Jul 31, 2013)

I shoot mainly M with DSLR and Av sometimes if I want to use flash as a fill-in flash or I'm too lazy or there isn't a wide DR to cover. 

For my G11, I almost always use Av because it's very hard to adjust the shutter + aperture with the limited dial/buttons. It may change if I'm using G12 or better. 

I used Tv once with Auto-ISO when I shot sports. 

As for external flash, if off-cam, I always use manual mode. If on-cam, I'd use TTL. Why? Because I use on-cam mainly as a fill-in flash, off-cam as primary sources of light. 

I shoot raw because I find it easier to adjust and process in the post though a slower to load.

These are my preferences. Of course, it's up to your style on what you choose.


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## Lawliet (Jul 31, 2013)

BoneDoc said:


> Let me ask all you manual people: Do you use the light meter on your camera, or do you eyeball the exposure?



You're missing the obvious choice: the light meter. Not that in the camera, but an incident one, preferable with a multispot option. That avoids the 18% assumption, and keeps the meter from having an uninformed opinion on proper exposure just because of some random AF points may find focus or not.
It also helps with finding proper settings for each flash, no need to guess what part of a histogram might correspond to a part of the picture and solve an n-th degree equation system based on that...


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## LewisShermer (Jul 31, 2013)

I may have to employ a little tact and choose my words more wisely when I start my new topic later about how I think folk that use zoom lenses over primes are just lazy and don't understand photography


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## Sporgon (Jul 31, 2013)

I know the OP was half joking, but I hope he uses a handheld incident light meter to set his manual exposure. 

Seriously though, I think M, Av, and Tv all rate as manual control as the exposure compensation control on these cameras is so useable; you can them see from the data how much away from the suggested 'correct' exposure you were for a particular shot.

Despite the metering sophistication and immediate histograms of modern digital an incident light meter can still be useful for putting the exposure straight on the money without having to take multiple test shots and adjusting until you are satisfied with histogram. 

So to the OP: mine's a Western V ( well three actually including the one that was my fathers from 1968 !)

What's yours ?


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## verysimplejason (Jul 31, 2013)

Lawliet said:


> BoneDoc said:
> 
> 
> > Let me ask all you manual people: Do you use the light meter on your camera, or do you eyeball the exposure?
> ...



Or you can use spot metering in-camera. Spot meter on your main subject and adjust/average from there if needed. Generally, I use Average Metering for low contrast scenes and spot metering for high contrast scenes. Most of the time I prioritize the exposure of the main subject.


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## LewisShermer (Jul 31, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> I know the OP was half joking, but I hope he uses a handheld incident light meter to set his manual exposure.
> 
> Seriously though, I think M, Av, and Tv all rate as manual control as the exposure compensation control on these cameras is so useable; you can them see from the data how much away from the suggested 'correct' exposure you were for a particular shot.
> 
> ...



Bloody hell, I had a weston V years ago, inherited from the first guy I ever assisted. He also gave me a real old Mamiya 645 when he retired. I totally regret selling them to fund the purchase of a Marshall amp and stack of cabs... but i was probably never going to use it in a professional capacity as everything had gone digital by then and I certainly couldn't afford a phase-1 digi-back for it.

Now in the studio I use a cheapo Sekonic L-308S just to balance the lighting. (you can't balance studio lights using the camera's in-built meter, obviously). I don't use it on the fly when shooting location, that'd be daft and a bit over kill in this modern age. I check the back of my camera like any good pro should...


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## Lawliet (Jul 31, 2013)

verysimplejason said:


> Or you can use spot metering in-camera. Spot meter on your main subject and adjust/average from there if needed. Generally, I use Average Metering for low contrast scenes and spot metering for high contrast scenes. Most of the time I prioritize the exposure of the main subject.


The cameras meter still suffers from the 18%-problem, can't deal well with flash and isn't exactly convenient for contrast analysis or metering/establishing contrast ratios between multiple sources. (Not to think about precision. ) Like the difference between a pocket knife and a proper tool.

I'd rather set the camera for the part that is most difficult to control or to the parameters dictated by the concept and light the rest accordingly. Available light==all the lights available to me


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## Marsu42 (Jul 31, 2013)

Lawliet said:


> The cameras meter still suffers from the 18%-problem



Um, would you please enlighten simple /me about the 18% problem, obviously it's about the grey card density, what of what are talking specifically (link, keywords to google...)? Maybe this? http://www.richardhess.com/photo/18no.htm


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## DigiAngel (Jul 31, 2013)

I shoot Av with Matrix Metering 95% of the Time. With experience you know the situations when the camera is going to under/overexpose and you dial in the appropriate compensation . Like +1 when in Snow, -0.5 when in direct sunlight to minimize highlight clipping etc.

Works very well for me  Also there are many Situations where you dont have time to set everything manual, like wedding reportage under stupid changing light.


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## Sporgon (Jul 31, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> Lawliet said:
> 
> 
> > The cameras meter still suffers from the 18%-problem
> ...



I think Lawliet is meaning the reflected light problem. 

Despite all the tech, measuring the light intensity falling on the subject ( incident meter) is still useful for short cutting to the 'correct' exposure in challenging light conditions.


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## romanr74 (Jul 31, 2013)

a bit of a yawn...


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## Marsu42 (Jul 31, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> I think Lawliet is meaning the reflected light problem. Despite all the tech, measuring the light intensity falling on the subject ( incident meter) is still useful for short cutting to the 'correct' exposure in challenging light conditions.



Thanks, sounds plausible!


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## Lawliet (Jul 31, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> what of what are talking specifically



The light meter simply has no clue what it is metering. Unless you want to shoot a gray card or something equivalent you'd have to find out the relative albedo first to get an idea of how much you have to correct the reading or rely on guesswork. Thats more trouble then taking an incidence reading in the first place, nothing gained but an opportunity to make mistakes.


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## schill (Jul 31, 2013)

Sporgon said:


> Marsu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Lawliet said:
> ...



Measuring the light intensity falling on my subjects usually wouldn't work. They bite.


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## jpete03 (Jul 31, 2013)

Getting annoyed at the way someone else shoots is like getting annoyed when the guy in front of you at Subway doesn't order the same sandwich you do.

There are plenty of real things to get annoyed over, becoming upset or annoyed over something that has zero impact on your own ability to photograph, live your live or make your own choices is asinine. 

This doesn't mean there isn't merit in discussing the differences, pros and cons of each etc. But starting out with a blanket statement implying there is one 'right' way to do things and its your way is just ignorant and inflammatory.


----------



## schill (Jul 31, 2013)

Marsu42 said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > I may have to employ a little tact and choose my words more wisely when I start my new topic later about how I think folk that use zoom lenses over primes are just lazy and don't understand photography
> ...



Sometimes.


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## AprilForever (Jul 31, 2013)

Jackson_Bill said:


> AprilForever said:
> 
> 
> > alipaulphotography said:
> ...



Taken in an area of varying light conditions, in manual mode. It's possible to do, with practice and effort. Birds move a lot, and require use of different af points also...


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## LewisShermer (Jul 31, 2013)

Next time I'm outside in varying light conditions, I'm actually going to shoot Tv just to see if it makes life any easier.


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## Joellll (Jul 31, 2013)

cayenne said:


> BoneDoc said:
> 
> 
> > I realize there are car afficionados out there who love their stick shift, but why not take advantage of the dual clutch auto and all the extra speed it gives you .
> ...


If I remember correctly, Nissan's R35 has an auto gear box that is pretty much faster than a stick shift.


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## cayenne (Jul 31, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > BoneDoc said:
> ...



And besides, after you've had a couple drinks and have to drive home....having to shift keeps your attention very well centered on driving, how fast you're going...etc.

Lots of side benefits!!


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## LewisShermer (Jul 31, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> Next time I'm outside in varying light conditions, I'm actually going to shoot Tv just to see if it makes life any easier.



actually no, I've just had a play and it's Av. I can set the f-stop and it'll work out the shutter speed... Just having a play now... does this mean I'm going to actually have to read the manual? oh man, how am I going to work out what it's exposing for? whole scene or focus point? This is a headache. what if conditions drop at 100ISO below 125th/sec?? there has to be a way to set a minimum shutter-speed then up the ISO to compensate?


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## cayenne (Jul 31, 2013)

thepancakeman said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > thepancakeman said:
> ...



I can settle one part for you quite easily.

You can refer to those of us residing the the United States of America, as Americans.<P>
We've been going by that moniker for a bit over 200yrs and we're quite happy with it.

Yes, we're a part of North America, but we're the only country that has America in its name. Mexico has Mexicans, Canada has Canadians....etc.

I dunno where this recent trend to try to rename us has come from, but please stop it. We are not Usian's, we are Americans, and prefer that for the most part.

As for the metric system, well, honestly, at this point, it would cause more turmoil and cost more money that would likely be beneficial to us.

Most Americans never leave the country and have very little interaction with the rest of the world where measurement would be required. So, at the very least the cost/benefits can't really be seen to favor the change. And just so ingrained...I know how fast I'm going at 80mph, I have no idea what I'd be doing (without sitting down with a calculator or Googling it) at 30kmph. I have no concept on how to dress if the weather said it was 20C or 40C....but I know 32F and 98F without thinking.

It doesn't seem to be impeding that much on trade (although it did lead to one space snafu) so, why change? And it isn't like the US is well known to have much an inclination to "follow the rest of the world because they do x this way". We not only like doing things our own way, we relish the independent thought and action mentality.

But I'm just rambling at this point...


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## weixing (Jul 31, 2013)

Hi,
Just wonder when there will be a thread on:
1) Why use calculator when you can count manually?
2) Why use accounting software when you can do the book manually?
3) Why use word processing software when you can write?
4) Why travel in vehicle when you can walk?
5) Why take the lift when you can climb up the stairs?
6) Why take photograph when you can draw?

I think I must be too free to post on this thread...  

Have a nice day.


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## HoodlessShooter (Jul 31, 2013)

Forgive me for annoying you; I have committed the following sins…

-I shoot Av 90% of the time
-I use Auto ISO
-I never use a lens hood
-Worst of all I am satisfied with my photos and have no shame whatsoever.

As penance I shall recite the exposure triangle 40 times, and read from the book of Kelby.


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## BoneDoc (Jul 31, 2013)

Just don't read McNally's book, since he said that he shoots in Av 90% of the time .

If it's good enough for Joe, I guess it's good enough for me ;D. I do agree though, that in a theater-type of situation, Manual is probably better, since the spotlight will mess with your exposure in general.


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## KyleSTL (Jul 31, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > Next time I'm outside in varying light conditions, I'm actually going to shoot Tv just to see if it makes life any easier.
> ...


Glad you are branching out a bit (unless of course I'm missing sarcasm). With your 5DIII, there are plenty of controls for the Auto ISO function including a minimum shutter speed.


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## LewisShermer (Jul 31, 2013)

KyleSTL said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > LewisShermer said:
> ...



Bloody hell, this thread really has got peoples backs up and on the defence hasn't it?

No sarcasm in that last post, I'm genuinely going to try it, even though I don't understand how it's going to work letting the camera decide on my exposure. I believe there are different estimating modes and a number of things I can do regarding minimum shutter speeds and maximum ISO's... I just have to read up on how to do it


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## sdsr (Jul 31, 2013)

Janbo Makimbo said:



> You guys seriously need to get out more and meet people..... Preferably of the opposite sex!!



The people they meet might wish they hadn't.


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## crasher8 (Jul 31, 2013)

sdsr said:


> Janbo Makimbo said:
> 
> 
> > You guys seriously need to get out more and meet people..... Preferably of the opposite sex!!
> ...



Why push heterosexuality? They might just like to meet someone with another cannon (Canon)


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## The_Arsonist (Aug 1, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> The_Arsonist said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised to see everyone saying they only use flash in M mode. While I am normally in M for flash work, I sometimes shoot flash in Av mode with a locked ISO so that the changes in ambient light will be picked up automatically by the shutter changes. Of course, I guess that is assuming manual flash; many people probably stick to E-TTL?
> ...



Yes, that's my point, let the camera choose the ambient via the shutter speed. You can control the ratio of ambient to flash with exposure compensation, and control the flash power with aperture. That way, when the ambient changes, the camera compensates while keeping the same flash ratio/power/etc.


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## SiliconVoid (Aug 1, 2013)

Yeah, sorry.. this just sounds like a 'fishing for attention thread' - like people do in online games where they pop off in chat what they feel will be the most offensive, provoking, or controversial statement they can make and then enjoy the aftermath of attention..

The reality, is that it does not matter what mode someone else chooses to shot in - and even if they are asking for assistance it should not cause anyone any emotional distress over it.

A large percentage of people I know shoot manual just so they can saw they shoot in manual - very similar to 'announcing' to someone you only shoot in raw - who the heck cares if the final image meets your (or your clients) requirements.

Each mode has its usefulness and drawbacks:
In a scenario where your subject, lighting, and distance changes for each shot, and not under your control, you are missing shots fiddling with full manual settings.
If you are shooting action (where shutter speed is your first priority) and the sun is not always lighting what you want then shutter priority allows you to focus on your subject and the next shot - instead of the next setting.
More concerned with depth of field in a changing scene, then aperture priority etc..

When I shoot in the studio I am almost always in manual because what I see isn't always what I want the camera to see so I push and pull exposure intentionally - and have the time to make any decision I want.. in the field I am almost always in shutter priority because I am almost always shooting at a subject-camera range where depth of field does not matter much and lighting (sunlight) are not a concern - but stopping the action is.

To the OP, yeah you should probably seek some counseling if you are actually getting emotionally distressed over someone else's personal choices regarding their personal activity.. =)


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## CarlTN (Aug 1, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> ...annoy me even more than those that don't shoot in raw.
> 
> What is it that folk find so difficult about choosing an appropriate shutter speed, the DOF they desire and then selecting the necessary ISO?
> 
> ...



I have no problem shooting in manual, _except when I want to use exposure compensation, which is most of the time_!

There's plently of control available shooting in Tv or Av modes, and leaving ISO in auto...so your premise is wrong. I used to not use ISO auto, before I bought the 6D. Now I'm not afraid of letting it choose whatever ISO it desires.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 1, 2013)

The_Arsonist said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > The_Arsonist said:
> ...



Yeah that's great but you'll still have wildly different exposures if the meter catches a bright light, and guess what? You have to dial in expo comp, then flash expo comp. then again when the light goes away... It's great if you like to fiddle a lot with that. 

I find it easier to just set my settings in M mode, then simply control the flash exposure comp of the guests with ETTL. Then I have control of the ambient and the flash will be variable to changing light to get a good exposure on the guests. This works way better and I can concentrate on composition more than twiddling dials all night.


----------



## weixing (Aug 1, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> The_Arsonist said:
> 
> 
> > RLPhoto said:
> ...


Hi,
Although I'm not using flash, but I thought it's the other way round?? The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure due to the additional light in the scene, but in M mode, you need to adjust manually to get the right exposure, right? If you don't adjust your exposure in M mode, won't you get an overexpose image?

Have a nice day.


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 1, 2013)

weixing said:


> Although I'm not using flash, but I thought it's the other way round?? The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure due to the additional light in the scene, but in M mode, you need to adjust manually to get the right exposure, right? If you don't adjust your exposure in M mode, won't you get an overexpose image?



In Av mode when using flash, the camera will meter and set the shutter speed based on the ambient light, ignoring the contribution from the flash. With E-TTL metering, the preflash will be used to determine the amount of flash needed for the subject, independent of the shutter speed selected by the camera for the background.

In practice, what that means is that if you have the setting for 'Flash sync speed in Av mode' set to Auto (which is the default setting), in situations where you'd often use flash (i.e. low light), the camera will usually select a very slow shutter speed. That setting can also be 1/60 s - Xsync, or fixed at Xsync - in those cases, the metering for background is overridden, meaning you'll get subject properly exposed by the flash (with E-TTL) but in low light, the background will be dark.


----------



## RLPhoto (Aug 1, 2013)

weixing said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > The_Arsonist said:
> ...



Av lets the camera pick a shutter speed, which affects the ambient exposure when using flash. So, one instance you could have a coleminers cave @ 1/200 and the next frame it will be light trails @ 1/60 or even slower if you activate 2nd curtain sync. Av doesn't give consistency when using flash with changing ambient light. Its similar to using Av to shoot concerts with flutters in lighting conditions that will ruin the subject with underexposer + the use of flash on top of that.

The rules change alittle bit when using flash because now your exposing for ambient and one for the flash.

Shutter speed = Ambient control (that's why sync speed is so important to a flash photog)

ETTL or M controls on flash = Flash exposure.


----------



## LewisShermer (Aug 1, 2013)

weixing said:


> Hi,
> Although I'm not using flash, but I thought it's the other way round?? *The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure* due to the additional light in the scene, but in M mode, you need to adjust manually to get the right exposure, right? If you don't adjust your exposure in M mode, won't you get an overexpose image?
> 
> Have a nice day.



This is the bit that winds me up "The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure". The camera should never decide the "correct" exposure. That is for YOU as a photographer/artist to decide through experience and defining your own shooting style. I couldn't give a toss if you like my shots or not or the way I post-process, these are decisions I've made from the instant of picking up a camera, choosing a focal length and attaching a lens, deciding on how shallow I want the DoF to be, the composition, how much light the shutter speed should let in and how I need to control them using ISO or if I'd like fill in flash. Or 2 flashes or 3 flashes or rim lighting or shot into the sun for flare or exposing for the light and getting a silhouette. If I need to plan in advance to get "the shot" then I plan in advance and set up my camera in preparation. If a scene is constantly changing then I'm constantly aware that I need to be constantly in control of what I'm doing and constantly aware of my surroundings. I also need to be in constant control of clients/guests/attendees, backgrounds. some things are easier to control than others and it's quick thinking and experience that makes the best of the worst situations, not the decisions of a processor in a camera. At least if it fucks up then it's my fault and I'm not blaming the camera that has chosen to do something at 30th/sec or f16 thus ruining it that way.

/rant

Note: I do not shoot birds in flight or sports...


----------



## weixing (Aug 1, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> Av lets the camera pick a shutter speed, which affects the ambient exposure when using flash. So, one instance you could have a coleminers cave @ 1/200 and the next frame it will be light trails @ 1/60 or even slower if you activate 2nd curtain sync. Av doesn't give consistency when using flash with changing ambient light. Its similar to using Av to shoot concerts with flutters in lighting conditions that will ruin the subject with underexposer + the use of flash on top of that.
> 
> The rules change alittle bit when using flash because now your exposing for ambient and one for the flash.
> 
> ...


Hi,
Since shutter speed control ambient lighting, so if your ambient lighting change, you'll need to adjust your shutter speed to get the correct exposure, right? If that the case, in Av mode you need to set exposure comp if you think it's necessary, but in M mode, you had to set the shutter speed since the flash exposure cannot use to compensate the change of ambient lighting, right? 

Have a nice day.


----------



## weixing (Aug 1, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> This is the bit that winds me up "The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure". The camera should never decide the "correct" exposure. That is for YOU as a photographer/artist to decide through experience and defining your own shooting style. I couldn't give a toss if you like my shots or not or the way I post-process, these are decisions I've made from the instant of picking up a camera, choosing a focal length and attaching a lens, deciding on how shallow I want the DoF to be, the composition, how much light the shutter speed should let in and how I need to control them using ISO or if I'd like fill in flash. Or 2 flashes or 3 flashes or rim lighting or shot into the sun for flare or exposing for the light and getting a silhouette. If I need to plan in advance to get "the shot" then I plan in advance and set up my camera in preparation. If a scene is constantly changing then I'm constantly aware that I need to be constantly in control of what I'm doing and constantly aware of my surroundings. I also need to be in constant control of clients/guests/attendees, backgrounds. some things are easier to control than others and it's quick thinking and experience that makes the best of the worst situations, not the decisions of a processor in a camera. At least if it fucks up then it's my fault and I'm not blaming the camera that has chosen to do something at 30th/sec or f16 thus ruining it that way.
> 
> /rant
> 
> Note: I do not shoot birds in flight or sports...


Hi,
Cool down a bit... I understand what you mean... I know that the camera meter won't get you the correct exposure in every situation or the exposure that you want... everyone needs and requirement is different, that's the reason why there is a few metering mode for you to choose, exposure compensation for you to compensate and M mode if you want total control of the exposure... the mode is design to make life easier for most of the people using the camera.

Have a nice day.


----------



## schill (Aug 1, 2013)

Person A knows how to set manual exposure settings on his/her camera and get the result he/she wants. Person B knows how to set Av exposure settings on his/her camera and get the result he/she wants.

Neither is right or wrong. Both can know what they are doing. Neither has to convince the other that either is right or wrong.

There are technical things that can be discussed and explained. Which mode is the best to shoot in (even in regard to specific situations) is not one of them. It is not black and white. I may make recommendations based on what I like but I certainly won't claim it's the best approach.

I shoot a lot in Av and Tv but also manual. I decide based on the situation. I am familiar enough with my camera (7D right now) and how it behaves to make those decisions and get what I want in any of these modes. Now if only the light would cooperate.


----------



## sanj (Aug 1, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> weixing said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...



You seem to have a 'wind up' issue. Not good when you want to be all manual I guess.


----------



## LewisShermer (Aug 1, 2013)

weixing said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > This is the bit that winds me up "The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure". The camera should never decide the "correct" exposure. That is for YOU as a photographer/artist to decide through experience and defining your own shooting style. I couldn't give a toss if you like my shots or not or the way I post-process, these are decisions I've made from the instant of picking up a camera, choosing a focal length and attaching a lens, deciding on how shallow I want the DoF to be, the composition, how much light the shutter speed should let in and how I need to control them using ISO or if I'd like fill in flash. Or 2 flashes or 3 flashes or rim lighting or shot into the sun for flare or exposing for the light and getting a silhouette. If I need to plan in advance to get "the shot" then I plan in advance and set up my camera in preparation. If a scene is constantly changing then I'm constantly aware that I need to be constantly in control of what I'm doing and constantly aware of my surroundings. I also need to be in constant control of clients/guests/attendees, backgrounds. some things are easier to control than others and it's quick thinking and experience that makes the best of the worst situations, not the decisions of a processor in a camera. At least if it fucks up then it's my fault and I'm not blaming the camera that has chosen to do something at 30th/sec or f16 thus ruining it that way.
> ...



It's not a personal thing, sorry if it seemed that way.

Photography is an art, and the amount of control that you have to portray a certain event, a split second of someone's life, their surroundings and their feelings is amazing. I don't understand why anyone would want to give up that control right from purchasing a camera and lenses to presenting it to the world via a blog, a website, a book or a gallery. I wont apologise for my passion on such things. If you were a painter would you let someone else determine your palette, your brush strokes or your canvas?


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 1, 2013)

sanj said:


> You seem to have a 'wind up' issue. Not good when you want to be all manual I guess.



I disagree. 'Wind up' seems the epitome of manual - wind-up watches, wind-up toys, etc.


----------



## schill (Aug 1, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> This is the bit that winds me up "The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure". The camera should never decide the "correct" exposure. That is for YOU as a photographer/artist to decide through experience and defining your own shooting style.



And what if my experience and style tell me that the correct exposure for MY desired results is to let the camera do whatever it wants. Just because that doesn't match your experience, style, and results then I am automatically wrong?



> I couldn't give a toss if you like my shots or not or the way I post-process, ...



You don't care if we like your stuff, but you seem to be really concerned about how we create stuff.

I don't get why this thread keeps going back and forth between reasonable comments and rants.

In the end, people can do whatever they want. I have no problem with others making suggestions about what might make a photograph better or offering what they would do in certain situations. But just because someone does something different doesn't make them better or worse.


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## schill (Aug 1, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> If you were a painter would you let someone else determine your palette, your brush strokes or your canvas?



So why do you keep telling us that your palette, brush strokes, and canvas are better than ours.


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## schill (Aug 1, 2013)

Thinking about this whole subject, I think a more useful way to look at it is not "which mode do you use" but "what is important to capture the image."

For example, when I shoot running cheetahs (which I do a lot), what's typically important TO ME is the shutter speed. If I want to stop motion, I want a fast shutter speed. If I want to try to get a nice background blur I want a slow shutter speed.

The mode I use to get this shutter speed is not as important as making the shutter speed decision. Sometimes I may decide to use Tv and let the camera adjust the aperture (and this is what I do most often). Other times, I may decide to set the aperture manually. But, in either case the driving parameter is the shutter speed. The camera mode really doesn't matter at all. It changes the way I operate the camera a bit, but it does not have to have any effect on the final image.

In other situations, I may decide that the aperture size is important. For example, shooting indoors I have decided in a certain situation that I always want to shoot wide open (f / 2.8) because I need the light. Whether I shoot in Av or manual, my mode (in my brain) is aperture priority.

And in any case, I'm deciding things like ISO and exposure compensation (if not manual mode) to achieve the results I want.


----------



## LewisShermer (Aug 1, 2013)

schill said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > If you were a painter would you let someone else determine your palette, your brush strokes or your canvas?
> ...



I'm not, there's an infinite number of colours, unlimited ways of applying paint and an overwhelming amount of different canvases. the point it you choose them for yourself.


----------



## sanj (Aug 1, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> schill said:
> 
> 
> > LewisShermer said:
> ...



I choose AV mode and it works just fine for me. Thank you. There are some photos on my website, please let me know where I failed using AV mode. I use AV mode almost always.


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## And-Rew (Aug 1, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> I'm not, there's an infinite number of colours, unlimited ways of applying paint and an overwhelming amount of different canvases. the point it you choose them for yourself.



And there you have it in a nutshell - people choose how to use a camera and how to adjust the settings for the picture they want according to what works for them.

10 pages on - still not sure why you find it such an issue when some one doesn't do it all manually or wish to learn how to set things up to the level that you or I do... ???

Leave them be and let them enjoy their photography their way and produce the pictures they are happy with. :-X


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## neuroanatomist (Aug 1, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> schill said:
> 
> 
> > LewisShermer said:
> ...



But if you let a color wheel determine a complementary color for you (like the camera's meter, that's a tool that's making an arbitrary determination based on pre-established criteria), then that's not a good way to do it. You have to pick it yourself, to be a real artist. You're right, your way is better. Not just better, it's really the *only* way anyone should ever create anything. Thanks for your opinion. :


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## sanj (Aug 1, 2013)

And-Rew said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not, there's an infinite number of colours, unlimited ways of applying paint and an overwhelming amount of different canvases. the point it you choose them for yourself.
> ...



With all humbleness I so disagree that manual shooting is at any 'higher level.' It is a method of shooting. That is it. It does not define art or photography. It is a 'mode' on the camera. We all achieve results in whatever manner we find suitable to the situation. No one is inferior by using AV or even P mode as long as their photos leave an impact. If there is any contest, it is with the result, not the method. Raving and ranting about methods boils down to ego. Feeling superior....


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## awinphoto (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm not going to bother to go through every thread in this topic, but from my experience working as a pro for the last decade, there is a time and place for every setting... I've seen photographers shoot high end $10-20k weddings all in Program mode using meter lock and the like to control exposure... There are times when shooting in mixed lighting and fast paced situations such as weddings where I stick it to AV and at the shallowest DOF my lens at the time can give me. That way I maintain control. There are other times when I know I need a specific shutter or I cannot go below a certain shutter speed in which I default to TV, such as shooting video. And other times, like a ceremony of a wedding, typically light does not change and so I lock all my cameras down to manual at a pre-determined exposure I want to be at so I can guarantee I get what i expect to get. There was a time with 100% of my work was fully manual... but that was before I started to make a living with photography.


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## TexasBadger (Aug 1, 2013)

Wow!


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## Jay Khaos (Aug 1, 2013)

The argument that controlling everything in manual is more artistic is weak in my opinion. A more appropriate analogy to painting is that shooting in manual versus Av is like using more brushes versus less brushes to marginally improve the look of your scene... possibly... but potentially ends up worse too. In the time you spend switching brushes and cleaning and whatnot... the scene is changing.

Personally, I'd rather weight the tradeoff in favor of capturing the moment over having slightly different DOF or shutter speed. But I can see how someone could easily prefer the opposite... especially in a gear forum


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## thepancakeman (Aug 1, 2013)

schill said:


> LewisShermer said:
> 
> 
> > If you were a painter would you let someone else determine your palette, your brush strokes or your canvas?
> ...



If you were a painter, would you create inferior work if you let a manufacturer create your paints?


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## insanitybeard (Aug 1, 2013)

How about, as an example, a situation where you leave your camera dangling by your side, switched on and ready to take a picture. You're walking along, (for example, hiking, I use this as an example because I can relate to it) and out of the blue are presented with something unique, a bird in flight, an animal, or any number of subjects which will not be hanging around. If your camera is set fully manual, that subject may well be long gone before you change the settings to get the shot. If the camera was in (e.g) Av or Tv, you may get something, depending on how it was set. If you have a few custom configurations set up in the C... custom modes as found on eg, the 7D/5D bodies for such scenarios, you could rapidly spin the selector and fire, and capture at a moments notice, if your custom modes are set correctly. I cannot see the advantage of sticking with full manual in such a situation. They all have their uses.


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## tcmatthews (Aug 1, 2013)

First I am not an expert but I would like to echo what has already been said. TV, AV and M all have there unique purposes. All have access to controlling ISO but each has a different set of two different control points.

TV- shutter and Exposure compensation. No direct Aperture control. 
AV- aperture and exposure compensation. No direct Shutter control.
M - Shutter and Aperture control. No direct exposure compensation. 

You can control aperture indirectly in TV by locking ISO and using Exposure compensation. In AV you can control Shutter indirectly by locking ISO and using Exposure Compensation. If an image is improperly exposed in TV or AV it is the photographers fault for not compensating for the cameras metering. 

Given the use cases you describe I would likely shoot in M most of the time. I use AV the most because it fits my style photography more often than not. If I am indoors or using a flash I normally stick to M unless using a manual lens. 

For manual lens I prefer TV mode. This gives me control over everything because the lens has an aperture ring.


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## clostridium (Aug 1, 2013)

In the end it should be what you create (your photo) that actually matters. 

The only reason why the individual settings behind the photo matter is for people seeking to capture a similar image and/or learn from the photographer and/or evaluate the equipment used (i.e. they may want to see the bokeh of a certain lens and knowing the aperture used is helpful, etc.) 

Cameras are just tools and settings on cameras are just tweaking how the tool works. Some people take amazing pictures with camera phones and that's usually in some full auto mode.

There are pros and cons to different settings in different circumstances and I think that few here would disagree with the statement that it is advantageous to be able to work effectively in multiple camera modes. In order to grow as a photographer and give you the best ability to capture the widest array of quality images this can be helpful. That's sort of why it is a good idea to push yourself to try different lenses and types of subjects - it diversifies your skills as a photographer.

Considering the massive array of different subjects and conditions and equipment that people use to take photos it seems completely unreasonable to dictate the technique used. There are definitely some general concepts around how certain modes might be more advantageous for certain types of subjects or conditions but those are NOT mandatory paths to take.

I have to say though that if Canon manual mode allowed you to dial in EC I would be shooting way more frequently in manual mode. Of course, sometimes I'd be using auto-ISO(!) - at the risk of igniting another 12 page forum fight I think it is fair to say that the use of auto-ISO is a subset of this issue and you shouldn't be looked down upon for using it.

This reminds me of the disagreements that fellow emergency care providers will sometimes have about the different devices and approaches and medications for airway management though the end result is definitely less subjectively judged - you either secured an airway or you didn't or to rephrase it in a more patient focused fashion: you either saved them or killed them.

Craig


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## KyleSTL (Aug 1, 2013)

LewisShermer said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > LewisShermer said:
> ...


My feather's aren't ruffled at all, I was expressing that I was glad to hear that you are experimenting with different methods and modes. I think you are the one getting bent out of shape. Furthermore, you start the thread by stating that manual is the only was exposure should be determined, and yet it sounds like you have never even tried any other mode. Interesting.

That's a bit like saying: "I've never driven a car with traction control, anti-lock brakes, or any other automated system, because I know I am better at controlling the car in any situation than any kind of safety system."

One other thing, exposure is only one aspect of the image in the digital world, and I assume you set your white balance manually using a custom setting every time for every image as well, that is just as important (unless of course you have a color temperature meter and shoot RAW and correct in post - which is what many people do with exposure in post, minor tweaks that create an image to the artist's taste).


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## CarlTN (Aug 1, 2013)

Again I say I like to use exposure compensation. You can't do that in manual mode, other than by manually setting everything on the fly. Takes too much time, and you miss out on a lot of shots. 

If they ever introduce an update that allows exposure compensation while in manual mode, but with ISO in "auto" mode...then I would probably use manual mode all the time. Obviously it would be nice to always be in control of exposure compensation, aperture, and shutter speed (besides the metering mode). Manual control of ISO is not all that necessary, if you have a low noise camera. As for shooting a gray or white card, I've never found it necessary. Of course I don't do a lot of flash photography, so I can see how sometimes it would help to use the card. The flash has a specific color temperature that is a known factor, though. For my purposes, with the time it would take to set the card out and shoot test shots...I prefer to just shoot test shots of the scene if necessary, look at the image on the camera, and set kelvin manually if the AWB is not working well enough. Also, if there are subjects with intense color, I compensate by under-exposing slightly, to keep those colors from blowing out. When shooting in very low light or at night (where the light meter isn't even able to work accurately), I just set kelvin (usually get in the ballpark), and shoot a couple of test shots for exposure. This is not rocket science, is it?


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## RLPhoto (Aug 1, 2013)

weixing said:


> RLPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Av lets the camera pick a shutter speed, which affects the ambient exposure when using flash. So, one instance you could have a coleminers cave @ 1/200 and the next frame it will be light trails @ 1/60 or even slower if you activate 2nd curtain sync. Av doesn't give consistency when using flash with changing ambient light. Its similar to using Av to shoot concerts with flutters in lighting conditions that will ruin the subject with underexposer + the use of flash on top of that.
> ...



Lol. You really don't understand flash. 

Consider this, lets say the correct exposure for the ambient light at a reception is ISO 400 - f/5.6 - 1/100th. 

If I want to cut the ambient, I only move the shutter speed dial to 1/200th. Bam 1 stop less. 

If I want to add ambient, I only move the shutter speed dial to 1/50th. Bam 1 stop more. 

What is the difference between that and Av expo comp? I'm still only moving one dial? Why bother with Av for then! It's inconsistent but manual mode will be exactly the same even if the occasional bright light source came into the frame.


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## unfocused (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm hesitant to jump into this speedlite conversation, but what the heck.

Seems like you all are making this more complicated than it needs to be. In camera's manual mode, set the shutter speed and aperture for whatever you want (within the sync speed limits of the camera and strobe). With ETTL, the strobe will generate the right amount of light to expose the subject. 

If you want a lot of ambient light, use a slower shutter speed, higher ISO and/or bigger aperture. If you want the speedlites to dominate, increase the shutter speed, lower the ISO and/or stop the lens down. Speedlite adjusts to match the exposure you picked. If the shot needs more or less light from the strobe, adjust the flash exposure compensation. 

Since much of this thread has been about letting the technology do the grunt work for you, why not do it with ETTL. What am I missing here?


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## RLPhoto (Aug 1, 2013)

unfocused said:


> I'm hesitant to jump into this speedlite conversation, but what the heck.
> 
> Seems like you all are making this more complicated than it needs to be. In camera's manual mode, set the shutter speed and aperture for whatever you want (within the sync speed limits of the camera and strobe). With ETTL, the strobe will generate the right amount of light to expose the subject.
> 
> ...



Changing the ISO or the Aperture affects both the speedlite and ambient for more or less light. Hence your really stuck in the same position but your speedlite will have to work harder instead of using shutter speed to control the ambient. 

I concur on using ETTL for the speedlite control, but keep the camera in M mode. We're not talking Manual flash settings, we're discussing Manual camera settings VS Aperture variable settings on the camera. If the speedlite starts to get hot from all the pre-flashes, I'll just switch to full manual on the speedlite. 

I'm not saying that Av + Flash is completely useless. It works great if the light isn't changing, which is a kinda strange irony. Overall, 90% of the time I use a flash, The camera needs to be in M Mode.


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## cayenne (Aug 1, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > I'm hesitant to jump into this speedlite conversation, but what the heck.
> ...



I'm really trying to learn everything in manual...but like others have said, a time and place and tool for everything, no?

With flash, I kinda go with what I heard Syl Arena say, that he only uses ETTL when the distance between the lens and the subject are moving....which makes sense if you're out shooting runners in a track meet. If in the studio on tripods, then manual is likely the way to go in most instances so you have more control and can generate more precise custom looks, the way YOU want them to look, not the computer in the camera.

As for camera, I'm somewhat like minded there...I try to shoot manual exclusively when at home shooting things on tripod, like still lifes, posed models, or landscapes...

Even run and gun, if I can, I try manual, I set ISO, and aperture and when shooting,I spin my shutter speed till I get the exposure meter about right...

If things move too fast past that to keep up with, then I switch to AV mode....etc.

But again, I'm a total noob, my 5D3 is my first DSLR and I'm trying to learn everything it *can* do, and keeping in manual most of the time, is the best way to figure things out IMHO.

Immersion learning so to speak....

C


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## schill (Aug 1, 2013)

cayenne said:


> But again, I'm a total noob, my 5D3 is my first DSLR and I'm trying to learn everything it *can* do, and keeping in manual most of the time, is the best way to figure things out IMHO.



I can't say that your approach is wrong, but I don't agree with "keeping in manual most of the time, is the best way to figure things out."

Learning how to use the camera in manual mode will probably help you understand exposure. But, it will do nothing to help you learn some of the other things your camera is capable of. The Av and Tv modes are valid tools and they are worth understanding and using.

This thread has demonstrated a couple times that there are people who are stuck in one mode and think that it's the only "real" way to use the camera. They try another mode like Av once and because they have never spent any time using it before they think it doesn't work.

You need to spend time learning other capabilities of the camera before you rule them out.

Personally, I don't see any reason for manual mode to be the "best" way to learn about exposure. The best way is to understand what the camera is doing (whatever the mode is) and see what the effects are. If I understand what aperture and shutter speed affect, then no matter how they are set I can figure out what's happening with the exposure.

When I shoot in Av or Tv mode, I don't ignore the other value just because I'm not setting it. If I have the shutter speed set to 1/1600 in Tv mode, I do check what the camera is giving me for aperture. If I don't like it, I change the ISO, exposure compensation, or shutter speed. I pay attention to what the camera is telling me and I make the decisions.

If I decide to work in manual mode, it's almost exactly the same thing - except no settings change on their own. I'm still looking at aperture, shutter speed, and ISO - I just don't have exposure compensation in the mix (which isn't needed here if I'm fixing all the others).

Personally, and everyone can be different, it seems like a waste to have a nice camera and never experiment with different modes - even while learning. And after "mastering" one mode, you are allowed to use the others. But if you never try them out and practice with them, I can see that you might think they don't work as well as manual mode.


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## unfocused (Aug 1, 2013)

cayenne said:


> ...I kinda go with what I heard Syl Arena say, that he only uses ETTL when the distance between the lens and the subject are moving....



With all due respect to Syl Arena, Joe McNally, Strobist and all the other advocates of manual flash, they have thousands upon thousands of hours of experience working with strobes and know them inside and out. While it's a good exercise to try to learn manual controls, to me it's a little like the original topic of this thread: if a tool is available that makes your life easier, why not use it?

If I live long enough, I may someday have enough experience to confidently set my speedlights on full manual. But, in the meantime, I figure I paid for Canon's top line strobes so I might as well take advantage of the technology they offer. As so many others have said about the original topic of this thread: it's about the results, not about how you got there.


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## KyleSTL (Aug 1, 2013)

unfocused said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > ...I kinda go with what I heard Syl Arena say, that he only uses ETTL when the distance between the lens and the subject are moving....
> ...


Bravo. I don't think I'll ever have enough time to confidently and efficiently set up stobes in manual mode. I'm sure I could figure it out using tables, trial-and-error and other methods, but I don't do it every day (nor do I think I ever will), so there is no advantage to manual flash when I can just set up camera in manual mode, and play around with ISO, shutter speed and FEC and get similar results in about the same (or less) amount of time.


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## Viggo (Aug 2, 2013)

KyleSTL said:


> unfocused said:
> 
> 
> > cayenne said:
> ...



How about a lightmeter? 

Instead of shooting a lot to try to get the flash to fire the way I want, I simply use a lightmeter, set the flash, turn it off, do the next one and turn all of them on, it's done within three minutes, and then I can shoot and move, and no matter if I move so that I have the flash directly to the camera or hidden I ALWALYS know I have the exact same light hitting the subject. That's why I always use manual flash. I have shot with ETTL and found it very frustrating that I had to stand in the same place or the exposure would change, for example having a flash towards the camera suddenly everything is three stops under. 


Manual flash sounds difficult, while it's really the opposite.


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## Lawliet (Aug 2, 2013)

KyleSTL said:


> so there is no advantage to manual flash when I can just set up camera in manual mode, and play around with ISO, shutter speed and FEC and get similar results in about the same (or less) amount of time.



Caveat: ETTL will try to keep the amount of light it sees constant. Sounds nice. Until you realize that this means area*intensity is constant, and for example your subject tilting the head a bit changes the first component. The second is what you want constant for consistent images, so you need to evaluate&adjust at every slight change. An RT flash at least lets you use AFlash, thus eliminating most of the randomness inducing factors. Still not very graceful with overlapping zones of illumination, but at least consistently off.


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## Marsu42 (Aug 2, 2013)

unfocused said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > ...I kinda go with what I heard Syl Arena say, that he only uses ETTL when the distance between the lens and the subject are moving....
> ...



I've got Syl's book and as just flipped through it again, in the second part there are a lot of portrait scenes with details explained ... almost all of his outdoor shots and even most of his indoor shots are ettl, he uses m flash outside if he needs full power and doesn't want the ettl pre-flash to drain part of it.


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## The_Arsonist (Aug 3, 2013)

RLPhoto said:


> The_Arsonist said:
> 
> 
> > RLPhoto said:
> ...


Ah, ETTL, that's the kicker. I only have manual flashes, and I am envisioning an ambient situation where there's not going to be something throwing off the camera's metering.


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## RLPhoto (Aug 3, 2013)

^------- ETTL-II with the 600RT and 5D3 combo doesn't have the bad flash exposure problems my 5Dc had & older canons have. I have to admit nikon had it right for years until canon finally got it right. I felt the same way about shooting M-Flash but now, ETTL works nicely. I almost ditched all my canon stuff for a d700 about two years ago, but I'm glad I waited.


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## cayenne (Aug 4, 2013)

unfocused said:


> cayenne said:
> 
> 
> > ...I kinda go with what I heard Syl Arena say, that he only uses ETTL when the distance between the lens and the subject are moving....
> ...



Well, in controlled conditions, with manual, you seem to have IMHO, much more control of the look that you want...rather than the computer chip in the camera trying to tell you what you want.

Not saying it doesn't have its place, but when you have the time and control of the subject and environment, it seems to me at my new place on the photo experience totem pole, that you get more control of what you desire out of manual flashes, especially if you're shooting multiple ones..?

Just my opinion so far...

C


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## cayenne (Aug 4, 2013)

Viggo said:


> KyleSTL said:
> 
> 
> > unfocused said:
> ...



I just bought a light meter...the new sekonic touch screen one...hope to have some time to figure it out soon.


C


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## emko (Aug 4, 2013)

only time i cant shoot manual is if i shoot kids soccer with 100-400mm when i am zooming the aperture changes, rest of the time manual i use the metering to get me close then i adjust for perfect settings.


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## BrandonKing96 (Aug 4, 2013)

The only time my camera is not on fully manual, is when I hand it to someone else to take pictures of me so I set it to aperture priority so that they don't have to keep saying "why is the photo so dark here when it was fine over there" and all that stuff.


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## tpatana (Aug 4, 2013)

Only time I shoot manual is when I turn the selection dial to M -position.


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## ishdakuteb (Aug 4, 2013)

imo, when you know how to operate your camera in the right way, it does not what mode are you shooting in (p, av, tv or m), it should come out the same. the draw back is that you have to hold ae-l to maintain same exposure which you have to act pretty quick on selecting your focus point (only if you do not prefer focus lock and re-compose). however, if you are holding a 1d series (if i understand 1d correctly via reading 1dx manual. fyi, i do not have 1dx... just read it for fun and compare to my 5d iii), then it is a different story since exposure lock can be hold much longer...

note: if you do not care about having same exposure in every shot as you are shooting with the same lighting condition, then disregard what i am saying above...


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## rpt (Aug 4, 2013)

tpatana said:


> Only time I shoot manual is when I turn the selection dial to M -position.


Sometimes I do that - and then (before taking the shot) I turn it to the green rectangle


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## crasher8 (Aug 4, 2013)

rpt said:


> tpatana said:
> 
> 
> > Only time I shoot manual is when I turn the selection dial to M -position.
> ...



I turned my 5D3 to the green rectangle for the first time in a year or whatever and wondered why it wouldn't focus! (Backbutton)


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## rpt (Aug 4, 2013)

crasher8 said:


> rpt said:
> 
> 
> > tpatana said:
> ...


Ha ha ha!


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## bycostello (Aug 18, 2013)

Grumbaki said:


> The need for speed makes me shoot Av.



+1


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