# Canon Inc. releases their Q1 2021 financials



## Canon Rumors Guy (Apr 26, 2021)

> Canon Inc. has released its financials for Q1 of 2021. Revenue and sales have been very good compared to the same time last year. Canon has even raised sales and revenue projections for their imagine division.
> Check out the official Canon Inc Q1 2021 Financial Information
> 
> Presentation Material
> ...



Continue reading...


----------



## snapshot (Apr 26, 2021)

the real reason for the r3 dev announcement... should have guessed. if you cant sell product might as well sell stock.


----------



## John Wilde (Apr 26, 2021)

It's a bad day for the "Canon is the next Kodak" crowd. 

It's a bad day for people who like M too. Once again, Canon doesn't even acknowledge its existence. I can't remember the last time that I heard a Canon executive mention M.


----------



## John Wilde (Apr 26, 2021)

snapshot said:


> the real reason for the r3 dev announcement... should have guessed. if you cant sell product might as well sell stock.


Can't sell product?

"In the first quarter, [camera] revenue was significantly higher than last year, as sales remained strong, driven by the EOS R5 and EOS R6 which were launched in the second half of last year." - Canon


----------



## Nigel95 (Apr 26, 2021)

"By raising the appeal of the R series, we aim to further raising our market share in the full-frame category and increase sales."

Me crying in the corner, waiting for an APS-C camera from Canon to use with my current EF-S glass, with equivalent specs like the R6 or something like a baby R5.

Please publish some reliable R7 rumors soon.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Apr 26, 2021)

It's great news. It's a bit strange that if someone wants a good 4K camera, the cheapest in Canon land is the $2500 R6. The M6 4K is soft and the system is dying, the RP 4K is almost useless.


----------



## Mark3794 (Apr 26, 2021)

I agree Canon needs a 1500$ full frame camera with uncropped 4k30p. You can only have cropped 4k30p ( R and RP) unless you want to spend 2500$


----------



## ctk (Apr 26, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> It's a bad day for the "Canon is the next Kodak" crowd.
> 
> It's a bad day for people who like M too. Once again, Canon doesn't even acknowledge its existence. I can't remember the last time that I heard a Canon executive mention M.


We need to get away from this need for acknowledgement from camera company execs. They're not our parents.

M hasn't been getting whacked with the guillotine of discontinuations like EF has. I think that alone speaks to some level of safety/longevity for it. RF is the flagship of Canon. It makes sense for it to be their priority.


----------



## dolina (Apr 26, 2021)

Canon Rumors Guy said:


> Continue reading...


I am lazy to research facts that would be shot down by people whose opinions are not fact-based.

So I will ask the slothful question how Q1 2021 compared YoY for the past 10 years. Did units shipped go up? Did net income go up?


----------



## jam05 (Apr 26, 2021)

snapshot said:


> the real reason for the r3 dev announcement... should have guessed. if you cant sell product might as well sell stock.


Actually stock is the by product. You have it backwards. 84 years in the business. And still the alpha dog and leader.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 26, 2021)

snapshot said:


> the real reason for the r3 dev announcement... should have guessed. if you cant sell product might as well sell stock.


Nice hot take. Not. Read the article. Uninformed cynicism is neither cute nor clever.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Apr 26, 2021)

The surprising thing to me, perhaps because I haven't followed Canon's more recent reports is that digital cinema cameras are now back in Canon's imaging segment. This was re-classified back in 2019 and moved into industry. Would it be possible that this category's performance is improving or is the rest of Canon's imaging portfolio doing well enough now to hide its performance or lack thereof? There is nary a mention of any EOS cinema in its reporting these days. 

According to BCN, JVC has ~11% market share in 3rd place, so all of the other players must just have a sliver of the market including Canon. It would be great to see a comparison of "digital cine cameras" specifically referring to companies like RED, Blackmagic, Kinefinity, ZCAM, Arri, etc.. but I guess the fact that they are all private companies and probably not well represented in just Japan wouldn't be too telling unless you had access to a private market research paper and even then would depend on the geographic area.


----------



## John Wilde (Apr 26, 2021)

jayphotoworks said:


> The surprising thing to me, perhaps because I haven't followed Canon's more recent reports is that digital cinema cameras are now back in Canon's imaging segment.


Canon rearranged their divisions to make more sense. As one example, (IJP) ink jet printers used to be in Canon's Imaging division.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 26, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> It's great news. It's a bit strange that if someone wants a good 4K camera, the cheapest in Canon land is the $2500 R6. The M6 4K is soft and the system is dying, the RP 4K is almost useless.


And a 1D C costs $1,000-$1,500 and has some of the best 4K out there still....


----------



## Joules (Apr 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> And a 1
> And a 1D C costs $1,000-$1,500 and has some of the best 4K out there still....


There's also the 90D if APS-C is an option. That has oversampled 4K without crop, unlike the M6 II.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 26, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> It's great news. It's a bit strange that if someone wants a good 4K camera, the cheapest in Canon land is the $2500 R6. The M6 4K is soft and the system is dying, the RP 4K is almost useless.


Wondering what is defined as "good". My R shoots great 4k, in my opinion. Of course, video is of almost no interest to me, however, when I do shoot video I am highly satisfied.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Apr 26, 2021)

Hope they release an updated RP


CanonFanBoy said:


> Wondering what is defined as "good". My R shoots great 4k, in my opinion. Of course, video is of almost no interest to me, however, when I do shoot video I am highly satisfied.



Just good quality 4K without crop or slight crop, not 1.8x.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Apr 26, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> And a 1D C costs $1,000-$1,500 and has some of the best 4K out there still....



And it's heavier than a brick.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 27, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> And it's heavier than a brick.


Weight wasn’t a criteria mentioned in the first place. The 90D was given as an excellent example that isn’t “heavier than a brick”, but I’d also point out bricks come in a very wide variety of sizes and densities...


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2021)

snapshot said:


> the real reason for the r3 dev announcement... should have guessed. if you cant sell product might as well sell stock.


Written with an impressive lack of comprehension about how markets work. Selling product is only indirectly and weakly linked to a company’s value. I own shares of multiple biotech companies with no products to sell, ‘earnings’ calls that report only losses, and billions in market cap.

Overall a nice recovery from the pandemic for Canon.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 27, 2021)

snapshot said:


> the real reason for the r3 dev announcement... should have guessed. if you cant sell product might as well sell stock.


@neuroanatomist, @CanonFanBoy, @jam05, @John Wilde, I think you may be missing the point. 

The report references supply shortages. Essentially acknowledging that they have been unable to met demand. So, this take is actually correct in that, if there is not product to sell, you can still sell stock because investors are looking at future sales, not past sales, plus the high demand for product is keeping retail prices up and improving Canon's profit margin. This certainly can boost the value of Canon stock.


----------



## David_E (Apr 27, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> _Me crying in the corner, waiting for an APS-C camera from Canon to use with my current EF-S glass…_


One needs to ask oneself before buying bottom-of-the-line bodies and lenses (EF-S, e.g.) whether they are really economical in the long term.


----------



## ctk (Apr 27, 2021)

unfocused said:


> @neuroanatomist, @CanonFanBoy, @jam05, @John Wilde, I think you may be missing the point.
> 
> The report references supply shortages. Essentially acknowledging that they have been unable to met demand. So, this take is actually correct in that, if there is not product to sell, you can still sell stock because investors are looking at future sales, not past sales, plus the high demand for product is keeping retail prices up and improving Canon's profit margin. This certainly can boost the value of Canon stock.


They will say Canon is intentionally holding back sales to jack up the stock


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2021)

unfocused said:


> @neuroanatomist, @CanonFanBoy, @jam05, @John Wilde, I think you may be missing the point.
> 
> The report references supply shortages. Essentially acknowledging that they have been unable to met demand. So, this take is actually correct in that, if there is not product to sell, you can still sell stock because investors are looking at future sales, not past sales, plus the high demand for product is keeping retail prices up and improving Canon's profit margin. This certainly can boost the value of Canon stock.


Where in the report does it say that Canon issued new shares? Since Canon is nearly 99% publicly owned, they really don’t have equity to drop into the market, meaning they don’t have shares to sell unless they issue more, which dilutes ownership (something current investors don’t like) and requires disclosure, meaning they haven’t done that either. So if you believe Canon is ‘selling shares’ you are also demonstrating your lack of understanding.

(Side note: people generally have a very poor understanding of how the capital markets actually work, so you’re far from alone.)


----------



## GoldWing (Apr 27, 2021)

Imagine if the R1 gets every SONY and Nikon user to come over to Canon


----------



## dirtyvu (Apr 27, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> "By raising the appeal of the R series, we aim to further raising our market share in the full-frame category and increase sales."
> 
> Me crying in the corner, waiting for an APS-C camera from Canon to use with my current EF-S glass, with equivalent specs like the R6 or something like a baby R5.
> 
> Please publish some reliable R7 rumors soon.


The adapters let you use either ef-s or Ef glass on the R series cameras. I've tried it


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 27, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> "By raising the appeal of the R series, we aim to further raising our market share in the full-frame category and increase sales."
> 
> Me crying in the corner, waiting for an APS-C camera from Canon to use with my current EF-S glass, with equivalent specs like the R6 or something like a baby R5.
> 
> Please publish some reliable R7 rumors soon.


Canon tends to follow the money.
If the 7D, 90D, and M6 sell well then expect an R7.
My worry is what they will do based on what they think will happen.
I would gladly buy any of those cameras with the IBIS that I would expect included in an R7 and I am not sure how many people they think are like me in that regard.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 27, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> Imagine if the R1 gets every SONY and Nikon user to come over to Canon


Nikon is a possibility but I think it would take more than one camera.
Sony users tend to like smaller full-frame cameras.
I did hear a lot of noise from Sony users about switching to the R5 before overheating issues and the release of the A7S III.
While I am confident that Canon and Nikon can compete with Sony in making smaller cameras, I am just as confident that they can't drive Sony out of the market.


----------



## unfocused (Apr 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Where in the report does it say that Canon issued new shares? Since Canon is nearly 99% publicly owned, they really don’t have equity to drop into the market, meaning they don’t have shares to sell unless they issue more, which dilutes ownership (something current investors don’t like) and requires disclosure, meaning they haven’t done that either. So if you believe Canon is ‘selling shares’ you are also demonstrating your lack of understanding.
> 
> (Side note: people generally have a very poor understanding of how the capital markets actually work, so you’re far from alone.)


<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/ZaF4Vl1NQxwaVsStQU" width="478" height="480" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="



">via GIPHY</a></p>


----------



## Skux (Apr 27, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> "By raising the appeal of the R series, we aim to further raising our market share in the full-frame category and increase sales."
> 
> Me crying in the corner, waiting for an APS-C camera from Canon to use with my current EF-S glass, with equivalent specs like the R6 or something like a baby R5.
> 
> Please publish some reliable R7 rumors soon.


Same here, I'm clutching my 5D3 and M6 Mark II and hoping Canon has anything in store for APS-C shooters. I'm just a guy who likes taking photos and does the occasional paid gig and there's no way I'm getting on board the RF mount at its current price point. Are they really going to press on with full-frame and forget about the entire (lucrative) APS-C market and leave us to migrate to Sony or Fuji?


----------



## pape2 (Apr 27, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> It's great news. It's a bit strange that if someone wants a good 4K camera, the cheapest in Canon land is the $2500 R6. The M6 4K is soft and the system is dying, the RP 4K is almost useless.


Back illuminated tech maybe makes cheap thick wired sensors lot better when those can be placed under sensor and amount of them can be greatly increased.
So next cheap full frame camera will be lot more competent. No more DR capping or may even get doublepixel gain if enough speed for that.
Trying say increasing of complexity of sensor is lot cheaper than increasing minituarizion of sensor.


----------



## SnowMiku (Apr 27, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> It's a bad day for the "Canon is the next Kodak" crowd.
> 
> It's a bad day for people who like M too. Once again, Canon doesn't even acknowledge its existence. I can't remember the last time that I heard a Canon executive mention M.


I'll still be using my M5 and EF-M 18-150mm for years to come. At least they haven't started discontinuing the EF-M lenses.



blackcoffee17 said:


> It's great news. It's a bit strange that if someone wants a good 4K camera, the cheapest in Canon land is the $2500 R6. The M6 4K is soft and the system is dying, the RP 4K is almost useless.


There is also the 90D which can do 4K 30p, but I don't know much about video so I'm not sure if it's considered good or not.


----------



## Skux (Apr 27, 2021)

David_E said:


> One needs to ask oneself before buying bottom-of-the-line bodies and lenses (EF-S, e.g.) whether they are really economical in the long term.


EF-S lenses are some of the best value you'll find.


----------



## Flamingtree (Apr 27, 2021)

“........expanding our lineup of RF lens, which command *high margins*, led to an increase in average selling prices.”

Ain’t that the truth


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 27, 2021)

Skux said:


> Same here, I'm clutching my 5D3 and M6 Mark II and hoping Canon has anything in store for APS-C shooters. I'm just a guy who likes taking photos and does the occasional paid gig and there's no way I'm getting on board the RF mount at its current price point. Are they really going to press on with full-frame and forget about the entire (lucrative) APS-C market and leave us to migrate to Sony or Fuji?


If the APS-C market were so lucrative, Canon would keep it around. The lower end of the market is getting clobbered.


----------



## Nigel95 (Apr 27, 2021)

David_E said:


> One needs to ask oneself before buying bottom-of-the-line bodies and lenses (EF-S, e.g.) whether they are really economical in the long term.


Indeed when I started out years ago as a student it was more rational to sell a kidney and buy top of the line equipment. This is all useless however because it all happend already. Hopefully I can ask your opinion for any future decision making. However I cannot pay for the advice unfortunately. As I am saving now you know for top of the line full frame glass.

Regards


----------



## Kit. (Apr 27, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> Imagine if the R1 gets every SONY and Nikon user to come over to Canon


Then Canon will double the prices of new lenses.

So, no. Having competition is healthy.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Apr 27, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> If the APS-C market were so lucrative, Canon would keep it around. The lower end of the market is getting clobbered.


It used to be lucrative. Unlike some of their customers, Canon cannot afford to live in the past.


----------



## John Wilde (Apr 27, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> If the APS-C market were so lucrative, Canon would keep it around. The lower end of the market is getting clobbered.


The low-end Canon M50 isn't "getting clobbered". In both the USA and Japan, it's Canon's best selling mirrorless camera.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 27, 2021)

Skux said:


> Same here, I'm clutching my 5D3 and M6 Mark II and hoping Canon has anything in store for APS-C shooters. I'm just a guy who likes taking photos and does the occasional paid gig and there's no way I'm getting on board the RF mount at its current price point. Are they really going to press on with full-frame and forget about the entire (lucrative) APS-C market and leave us to migrate to Sony or Fuji?


There is a new rumor that the next camera from Sony will be APS-C.
If Canon does not leak or announce something I will find it pretty tempting.
I am not tempted by Fuji at all.


----------



## Nigel95 (Apr 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> It used to be lucrative. Unlike some of their customers, Canon cannot afford to live in the past.


My fault for not becoming a dentist or a professional photographer/videographer.

It´s just a pity that I am satisfied with all the lenses that I own (EF-S) and just want a body with certain specs like the R6. Buying the R6 body for the current price is the limit for me as a hobbyist. Not having to swap 3 lenses also with FF equivalent glass @ EF prices.. let's not talk about the price of new RF glass. I understand for Canon it would be very good $$$ if they can sell me also some extra lenses. But they won't, as I there is a limit, what I am going to pay even as a dedicated hobbyist. At a certain point it's just completely nuts to spend this much for a hobby. I love Canon menus etc... but wish we could have something like GH5 or Fuji XT4 in Canon APS-C land. A R7 would be perfect whatever it is a R6, R5 or something in between.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 27, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> The low-end Canon M50 isn't "getting clobbered". In both the USA and Japan, it's Canon's best selling mirrorless camera.


That doesn't mean it is PROFITABLE. Lucrative = PROFITABLE. Sales mean nothing without a decent profit. Companies don't kill off cash cows. Ever run a business?


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> It used to be lucrative. Unlike some of their customers, Canon cannot afford to live in the past.


For some reason, people have the idea that sales and profit go hand in hand. They also forget that the low end stinks for these camera companies these past several years.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 27, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Lucrative = PROFITABLE


Lucrative is a bit more than profitable.
If it was not profitable Canon would have cancelled the line.
Of course, profit margins are not as high, but they sell a lot more of them.
I doubt very many people are deciding between getting an R5 or an M50, so it does not hurt to sell them both,


----------



## jayphotoworks (Apr 27, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> Canon rearranged their divisions to make more sense. As one example, (IJP) ink jet printers used to be in Canon's Imaging division.



What I was referring to was 2016, 2017, 2018, where cinema camera were always a part of imaging. In 2019 and 2020 specifically, it was reclassified as industry. Recently, it has again been reclassified back to imaging. It always made sense that cinema cameras were imaging products..


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 27, 2021)

jayphotoworks said:


> What I was referring to was 2016, 2017, 2018, where cinema camera were always a part of imaging. In 2019 and 2020 specifically, it was reclassified as industry. Recently, it has again been reclassified back to imaging. It always made sense that cinema cameras were imaging products..


I am seeing C70 at camera shops that never carried the C200 even though they cost the same.
The C200B is much cheaper and seems to be forgotten about.


----------



## jayphotoworks (Apr 27, 2021)

Kit. said:


> Then Canon will double the prices of new lenses.
> 
> So, no. Having competition is healthy.



Competition is absolutely healthy. For all of the crap that Sony got in the past and probably well deserved going through iterative "beta" releases, they've gotten to a point where their gear can be used in a professional context, gets out of the way of the shooter and gimmicks of yore have become usable features today. Along the way, they've learned from Canon that color science is actually a thing and refining existing features like the UI instead of throwing gimmicks into each release is less of a thing. Canon too has changed and realized there is a premium market worth chasing and the younger crowd handling smartphones in elementary school then actually want to shoot at arms length and not through a dark prism anymore today. They've also been way more receptive adding in features in recent releases that would have been out of character for Canon just a few years ago.

The consumer gets the best options at the end of the day..


----------



## Nigel95 (Apr 27, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> That doesn't mean it is PROFITABLE. Lucrative = PROFITABLE. Sales mean nothing without a decent profit. Companies don't kill off cash cows. Ever run a business?


Sales even without decent profit can be rational with a long term strategy. To get more market share, making people comfortable with Canon ecosystem. Use it as an upgrade path to FF. This might not be true fully as they maybe don't want to make APS-C RF glass. Anyways without a Canon APS-C RF alternative and having to sell all my EF-S glass. This means I am not stuck anymore in Canon ecosystem. If they make a high end APS-C now I will buy it. When time passes I might have budget and want something like RF 100mm macro etc... And maybe this will once transfer me to a FF body. But for now buying a R6 + dedicated FF glass is out of my league.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 27, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> Imagine if the R1 gets every SONY and Nikon user to come over to Canon



I'll be happy if it just keeps the trolls quiet. Notice how silent it has been since the R5-R6?


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 27, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> Sales even without decent profit can be rational with a long term strategy. To get more market share, making people comfortable with Canon ecosystem. Use it as an upgrade path to FF. This might not be true fully as they maybe don't want to make APS-C RF glass. Anyways without a Canon APS-C RF alternative and having to sell all my EF-S glass. This means I am not stuck anymore in Canon ecosystem. If they make a high end APS-C now I will buy it. When time passes I might have budget and want something like RF 100mm macro etc... And maybe this will once transfer me to a FF body. But for now buying a R6 + dedicated FF glass is out of my league.


1. M offers very little in the way of an upgrade path to FF.
2. The R6 automatically detects EFs glass and crops accordingly. So does the R5. There's your upgrade path. 
3. Long term losses are not a rational strategy for gaining arket share... Especially when that market has collapsed and is quickly evaporating.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Lucrative is a bit more than profitable.
> If it was not profitable Canon would have cancelled the line.
> Of course, profit margins are not as high, but they sell a lot more of them.
> I doubt very many people are deciding between getting an R5 or an M50, so it does not hurt to sell them both,


We'll, Canon has, for the most part, cancelled the line. Doesn't hurt to sell both? That depends on profits. You're right, not many are deciding between R5 and M. True. Just as few are upgrading from M to FF. There goes the idea of running losses long term in an attempt to gain market share. Market share is useless if not profitable. You nor I have the slightest idea what the profits and margins are, however, I think it is safe to say that if M was raking in the $, that Canon would be pouring in development $ and we'd see a much more robust lens line up for M. That ain't happening. More likely, people at the low end are more than happy to ditch ILC and buy a $1k smart phone for their photo and video needs. Isn't that why Canon expressed that the future is more dependent on high end?


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 27, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> Weight wasn’t a criteria mentioned in the first place. The 90D was given as an excellent example that isn’t “heavier than a brick”, but I’d also point out bricks come in a very wide variety of sizes and densities...


True. My wife was built like a brick @#&* house (Southern redneck expression) back in the day. No way a camera comes close to her 95lb brick self.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 27, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> 2. The R6 automatically detects EFs glass and crops accordingly. So does the R5. There's your upgrade path.



With a minor caveat: Some third-party EFs lenses don't trigger this. Of course you can still crop the image afterwards or explicitly put the camera in crop mode...or leave it as-is as an amusing artistic effect.




CanonFanBoy said:


> True. My wife was built like a brick @#&* house (Southern redneck expression) back in the day. No way a camera comes close to her 95lb brick self.



Pro tip: She is STILL built like a brick @#&* house. Certainly never let her have impression you think otherwise.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 27, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> And it's heavier than a brick.


Its called inertia stabilization  smart physics working for you, pro steady cam shooters love it.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 27, 2021)

neuroanatomist said:


> Written with an impressive lack of comprehension about how markets work. Selling product is only indirectly and weakly linked to a company’s value. I own shares of multiple biotech companies with no products to sell, ‘earnings’ calls that report only losses, and billions in market cap.
> 
> Overall a nice recovery from the pandemic for Canon.
> View attachment 197249


It is good news for all who have invested in an extended Canon gear and want a future for their investment.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 27, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> Uninformed cynicism is neither cute nor clever.


Well said! Plus, the more appropriate forum for uninformed cynicism are comments on DPReview in any threads connected with the emotive word "Canon". It is like the bell in Ivan Pavlov's classical conditioning experiments, but instead of drooling it stimulates trolling.


----------



## GoldWing (Apr 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Nikon is a possibility but I think it would take more than one camera.
> Sony users tend to like smaller full-frame cameras.
> I did hear a lot of noise from Sony users about switching to the R5 before overheating issues and the release of the A7S III.
> While I am confident that Canon and Nikon can compete with Sony in making smaller cameras, I am just as confident that they can't drive Sony out of the market.


Smaller is not better for pros and our big whites


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 27, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Nikon is a possibility but I think it would take more than one camera.
> Sony users tend to like smaller full-frame cameras.
> I did hear a lot of noise from Sony users about switching to the R5 before overheating issues and the release of the A7S III.
> While I am confident that Canon and Nikon can compete with Sony in making smaller cameras, I am just as confident that they can't drive Sony out of the market.


I don’t see how anybody with a brain who owns a Sony A7S III could possibly be seriously looking to sell them for an R5. The A7S III is a niche model without peer in the Canon lineup, indeed it is very difficult to find anybody that makes a comparable body.


----------



## Nigel95 (Apr 27, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> 1. M offers very little in the way of an upgrade path to FF.
> 2. The R6 automatically detects EFs glass and crops accordingly. So does the R5. There's your upgrade path.
> 3. Long term losses are not a rational strategy for gaining arket share... Especially when that market has collapsed and is quickly evaporating.


1. I wasnt talking about M series but an APS-C RF body I mentioned R7.
2. R6 in crop mode doesn’t give as high quality UHD footage as FF mode. A waste to use with only EF-S glass IMO.
3. Why based on what in this context, assumption? Why is the APS-C line not break even or slighly profitable?


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 27, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> 1. I wasnt talking about M series but an APS-C RF body I mentioned R7.
> 2. R6 in crop mode doesn’t give as high quality UHD footage as FF mode. A waste to use with only EF-S glass IMO.
> 3. Why based on what in this context, assumption? Why is the APS-C line not break even or slighly profitable?


This conversation started out with M. You then entered the conversation.

Why is ASP-c not break even or slightly profitable? Because that market has collapsed! Where have you been?

I understand wanting RF ASP-c. Will Canon do it? If Canon research indicates there is money to be made, yes. However, “break even” or “slightly profitable “ ain’t gonna cut it. Canon doesn’t exist for altruistic reasons. Canon exists for the purpose of making a profit. Period. ASP-c in EF is dying because the low end is dying. Changing mounts does not change the reasons for that segment dying.


----------



## Nigel95 (Apr 27, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> This conversation started out with M. You then entered the conversation.
> 
> Why is ASP-c not break even or slightly profitable? Because that market has collapsed! Where have you been?
> 
> I understand wanting RF ASP-c. Will Canon do it? If Canon research indicates there is money to be made, yes. However, “break even” or “slightly profitable “ ain’t gonna cut it. Canon doesn’t exist for altruistic reasons. Canon exists for the purpose of making a profit. Period. ASP-c in EF is dying because the low end is dying. Changing mounts does not change the reasons for that segment dying.


R7 isn't low end or it might be in the eye of FF owners.


----------



## blackcoffee17 (Apr 27, 2021)

justaCanonuser said:


> Its called inertia stabilization  smart physics working for you, pro steady cam shooters love it.



Wish someone would invent a feature which allows a camera to be pocketable and 300g and then to transform into an 1DX when used


----------



## SteveC (Apr 27, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Wish someone would invent a feature which allows a camera to be pocketable and 300g and then to transform into an 1DX when used



Forget that, it's the lens that matters. Where is my 1-1000mm f/1.0 that fits in a pocket?


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

GoldWing said:


> Smaller is not better for pros and our big whites


That's what she said


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I think it is safe to say that if M was raking in the $, that Canon would be pouring in development $ and we'd see a much more robust lens line up for M.


That is not safe at all.
Canon is investing more money into full-frame mirrorless because they figure they will get a higher ROI.
That is not an indication that they make less money from their existing investment in other cameras.


----------



## privatebydesign (Apr 28, 2021)

CanonFanBoy said:


> I think it is safe to say that if M was raking in the $, that Canon would be pouring in development $ and we'd see a much more robust lens line up for M.


But you are making the classic enthusiasts mistake of thinking all buyers think like you. Canon never invested a fortune in Rebel development yet they made shedloads of money from them. People who buy Rebels and M's generally don't do it because they want big fancy lenses that cost many times the price of their cameras, they don't care about f1.anything, they want them for specific uses that they feel their phones can't do. Better photos and videos with less noise, much better screens, etc etc.

Yes M's did sell as second cameras to people like us, but that was a happy accident that led to some modest developments like the 32 f1.4 and, er, that was it really. The rest are mostly great to modest image quality slow zooms and the ubiquitous macro Canon seem to develop early in every systems life.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 28, 2021)

privatebydesign said:


> But you are making the classic enthusiasts mistake of thinking all buyers think like you. Canon never invested a fortune in Rebel development yet they made shedloads of money from them. People who buy Rebels and M's generally don't do it because they want big fancy lenses that cost many times the price of their cameras, they don't care about f1.anything, they want them for specific uses that they feel their phones can't do. Better photos and videos with less noise, much better screens, etc etc.
> 
> Yes M's did sell as second cameras to people like us, but that was a happy accident that led to some modest developments like the 32 f1.4 and, er, that was it really. The rest are mostly great to modest image quality slow zooms and the ubiquitous macro Canon seem to develop early in every systems life.


Actually, I wasn't making my statement from a buyer's perspective. Mine had to do with business.


----------



## Ozarker (Apr 28, 2021)

Nigel95 said:


> R7 isn't low end or it might be in the eye of FF owners.


We don't know that. Does not exist.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 28, 2021)

blackcoffee17 said:


> Wish someone would invent a feature which allows a camera to be pocketable and 300g and then to transform into an 1DX when used


We all need a magic bag like Hermione's little one in "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows", in which she stores tons of gear.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> That is not safe at all.
> Canon is investing more money into full-frame mirrorless because they figure they will get a higher ROI.
> That is not an indication that they make less money from their existing investment in other cameras.


You nailed it. It is like car production: premium cars generate higher margins for the industry.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Canon tends to follow the money.


Wise strategy in capitalism 


EOS 4 Life said:


> If the 7D, 90D, and M6 sell well then expect an R7.


I really hope for it, as a birder. 


EOS 4 Life said:


> My worry is what they will do based on what they think will happen.
> I would gladly buy any of those cameras with the IBIS that I would expect included in an R7 and I am not sure how many people they think are like me in that regard.


I guess we will find out latest 2022 if we can expect any APS cameras for the RF mount.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> I am not tempted by Fuji at all.


Smartest thing Fuji did in the past years is starting its GFX (crop) medium format series. Very tempting for me, I have to say.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 28, 2021)

John Wilde said:


> The low-end Canon M50 isn't "getting clobbered". In both the USA and Japan, it's Canon's best selling mirrorless camera.


I just checked Amazon Germany (where I live), bestseller list (status this morning CET) is:
#1 M50 black kit with 15-45mm zoom
#2 Kodak Fun Saver (no joke, Kodak's faded film imperium strikes back )
#3 Panasonic Lumix FZ80
#4 Canon PowerShot ELPH 180 (a PS camera!)
#5 M50 white kit with 15-45mm zoom

(next rankings include several Rebels etc. from Canon, some cameras from Panasonic, one Olympus)

The first Sony is A6400 on rank #29, first Nikon is a D3500 kit on #40... and Nikon used to be extremely popular in Germany years ago. So, Canon really dominates the "lower end" market here in Germany. But, in fact, most people here like elsewhere on this planet use their smartphones and are happy with them.


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

justaCanonuser said:


> Smartest thing Fuji did in the past years is starting its GFX (crop) medium format series. Very tempting for me, I have to say.


GFX 100S is an all-around great camera and they are starting to have interesting lenses.
There is also a Metabones focal-expander for Canon EF and a Metabones focal-reducer for Hasselblad medium-format lenses.
By the time the price gets low enough for me I am hoping that Canon has an affordable 100 MP camera.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 28, 2021)

justaCanonuser said:


> I just checked Amazon Germany (where I live), bestseller list (status this morning CET) is:
> #1 M50 black kit with 15-45mm zoom
> #2 Kodak Fun Saver (no joke, Kodak's faded film imperium strikes back )
> #3 Panasonic Lumix FZ80
> ...



Nikon is very dominant here. The last time my brick and mortar had a big sale event, I saw a LOT of people picking up D3500s. When I go out in public and see someone with a camera, it's almost invariably a Nikon. Even my one friend who has a Canon (and introduced me to it), now tells me he wishes he had gone with Nikon.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 28, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Nikon is very dominant here. The last time my brick and mortar had a big sale event, I saw a LOT of people picking up D3500s. When I go out in public and see someone with a camera, it's almost invariably a Nikon. Even my one friend who has a Canon (and introduced me to it), now tells me he wishes he had gone with Nikon.


So, the seemingly still prefer DSLRs where you live. Looks like these people don't read photography blogs and forums, otherwise they should know that mirror slappers are totally no-go these days. Btw this writes a still happy 5D4 slapper user  

Regarding Nikon vs Canon: we have both extended Nikon and Canon gears here, and my wife, a long-time Nikonian was several times close to change to Canon. Why? Simply, because we shoot a lot of wildlife in rugged areas and my Canon gear overall proved to be much more reliable. I also needed only one time service in the past 10 years, her Nikon gear needed new AF drives, broken mirror boxes, non-functioning buttons after rain ... I guess only the D3/4/5/6 pro series of Nikon has the quality and reliability Nikon once was famous for, but we both prefer cameras with smaller bodies. Having one or two cameras, a 500mm prime tele and some other gear in the rucksack is enough to carry.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 28, 2021)

justaCanonuser said:


> So, the seemingly still prefer DSLRs where you live. Looks like these people don't read photography blogs and forums, otherwise they should know that mirror slappers are totally no-go these days. Btw this writes a still happy 5D4 slapper user
> 
> Regarding Nikon vs Canon: we have both extended Nikon and Canon gears here, and my wife, a long-time Nikonian was several times close to change to Canon. Why? Simply, because we shoot a lot of wildlife in rugged areas and my Canon gear overall proved to be much more reliable. I also needed only one time service in the past 10 years, her Nikon gear needed new AF drives, broken mirror boxes, non-functioning buttons after rain ... I guess only the D3/4/5/6 pro series of Nikon has the quality and reliability Nikon once was famous for, but we both prefer cameras with smaller bodies. Having one or two cameras, a 500mm prime tele and some other gear in the rucksack is enough to carry.



These observations date back to before Covid, and the events were summer of 2019. Nikon does do mirrorless, of course, but Canon hadn't really fully leapt into it at that time either (R5 and R6 were still a year away).

However, talking just last week to someone at the brick-and-mortar, they still do more Nikon business than Canon business.


----------



## Czardoom (Apr 28, 2021)

RIP crop ILC cameras. Forum users declare you dead! Yes, I think we all understand that the profit margins are smaller. But I checked the Amazon USA best selling digital camera rankings a couple weeks ago and found:

In the top 25:
only 1 FF mirrorless (Canon R6, ranked #22)
4 Canon DSLR rebels/kits (#2, #7, #18 & #25)
2 Canon M mirrorless (M50 #9 and M50 II #20)
1 Nikon crop DSLR (D3500 #25)

Checking today:
In the top 25:
only 1 FF mirrorless (Sony A7 III, #16)
5 Canon DSLR rebels/kits (#3, #8, #9, #21, #24)
2 Canon M mirrorless (M50, #1, #10)

I think people on the forum make a couple wrong assumptions (just my opinion, of course). They assume that more people are like them and forget that the vast majority of people can't afford, or will not spend much money on a camera. The least expensive cameras (models that form folks usually scoff at) are selling the most. (Yes, at probably a very low profit margin).

Forum folks also assume that there needs to be an upgrade path. I think Canon counts on the upgrade path being much simpler than most here think. The path is, "I liked the Rebel (or M series) camera that I bought, but now I am interersted in a higher end camera. Hmmm, what brand was it? Oh, Canon! I will buy a new Canon!" No worries about lens compatibility. No worries about "investment." Simply, I liked my cheap Canon, now I will buy a new Canon. 
That's my take.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 28, 2021)

SteveC said:


> These observations date back to before Covid, and the events were summer of 2019. Nikon does do mirrorless, of course, but Canon hadn't really fully leapt into it at that time either (R5 and R6 were still a year away).
> 
> However, talking just last week to someone at the brick-and-mortar, they still do more Nikon business than Canon business.


Must be an unusual Nikonian hotspot, since Canon sells more cameras and lenses worldwide, Nikon has not yet half of Canon's market share. Here are numbers for 2019, so still the "pre-R5/6" period:








2019 Market Share Data Shows Canon and Sony Growing, Nikon Shrinking


The Nikkei Asian Review's data gathering arm has published 2019 worldwide market share numbers on 74 different industries, including digital cameras. The




petapixel.com


----------



## EOS 4 Life (Apr 28, 2021)

Czardoom said:


> Simply, I liked my cheap Canon, now I will buy a new Canon


It also helps that the EOS RP is fairly priced.
I have seen people jump straight from the M50 to the EOS RP which is practically a full-frame version of that camera.
The same can be said from a Rebel T8i to a 6D.
Going from DSLR to mirrorless is simple as well.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 28, 2021)

Czardoom said:


> I think people on the forum make a couple wrong assumptions (just my opinion, of course). They assume that more people are like them and forget that the vast majority of people can't afford, or will not spend much money on a camera. The least expensive cameras (models that form folks usually scoff at) are selling the most. (Yes, at probably a very low profit margin).


I agree, too, and like to add, that even cheap digital cameras today are good enough to deliver satisfying results for most people. Photo forums are used by enthusiasts like us, which represented always a quite small market share, but of course we have an important impact in the premium gear market.


----------



## justaCanonuser (Apr 28, 2021)

EOS 4 Life said:


> Going from DSLR to mirrorless is simple as well.


Even simpler than switching from classic mirrorless cameras to SLRs many years ago, since the whole process of framing and shooting was a bit different.


----------



## stevelee (May 2, 2021)

Czardoom said:


> I think Canon counts on the upgrade path being much simpler than most here think. The path is, "I liked the Rebel (or M series) camera that I bought, but now I am interersted in a higher end camera. Hmmm, what brand was it? Oh, Canon! I will buy a new Canon!" No worries about lens compatibility. No worries about "investment." Simply, I liked my cheap Canon, now I will buy a new Canon.
> That's my take.


And that's my biography.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (May 2, 2021)

Kit. said:


> Then Canon will double the prices of new lenses.
> 
> So, no. Having competition is healthy.


RF Lenses are already big profit items.


----------

