# The day of the anti-climatic announcement



## Tugela (Sep 2, 2014)

Is just 3 days away! (as per rumour) ;D


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## adhocphotographer (Sep 2, 2014)

Drum roll please!!!! ;D


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 2, 2014)




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## raptor3x (Sep 2, 2014)

Isn't photokina still around 2 weeks away?


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## dtaylor (Sep 2, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> Isn't photokina still around 2 weeks away?



NDAs supposedly expire on Sept 5. Can't wait to find out what the actual specs are, though I doubt we will have any idea regarding sensor performance for a couple weeks after the announcement (at least). We need the standard suit of test scenes from various reviewers for that.

I would like to see an Exmor like sensor just to put an end to those threads 

But I'm very curious to see what the price is going to be. If it's in the stratosphere I'm not going to be interested in replacing my current 7D for sports. If it's priced similar to the original upon its release, then 65 point AF / 10 fps...if those are the specs...could certainly tempt me.


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## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 2, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> Isn't photokina still around 2 weeks away?



Announcements are made about 1-2 weeks before the week a event opens, Canon wants a day when other major camera makers are not announcing. I suspect that someone coordinates dates. Friday is not a common date for announcements, but other announcements have been made on Friday.


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## raptor3x (Sep 2, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> NDAs supposedly expire on Sept 5. Can't wait to find out what the actual specs are, though I doubt we will have any idea regarding sensor performance for a couple weeks after the announcement (at least). We need the standard suit of test scenes from various reviewers for that.





Mt Spokane Photography said:


> Announcements are made about 1-2 weeks before the week a event opens, Canon wants a day when other major camera makers are not announcing. I suspect that someone coordinates dates. Friday is not a common date for announcements, but other announcements have been made on Friday.



Didn't realize that, thanks.


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## RickWagoner (Sep 2, 2014)

I just want it over...seriously sick of hearing all the 7D fan boys. 

Either way i am waiting on my purchase for fall, 70D will go on sale and the 7Dii will have reviews out by then.


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## NancyP (Sep 2, 2014)

Neuroanatomist wins the prize for best illustration. ;D


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## dtaylor (Sep 2, 2014)

NancyP said:


> Neuroanatomist wins the prize for best illustration. ;D



Almost. I pushed the image 9,001 stops and there was shadow noise in the black lettering. He only gets second place because the image wasn't produced with Exmor ;D


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## Foxdude (Sep 2, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > Neuroanatomist wins the prize for best illustration. ;D
> ...



Yeah. Neuro, you really need to swap to SoNikon


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## Tugela (Sep 2, 2014)

NancyP said:


> Neuroanatomist wins the prize for best illustration. ;D



No, he just lacks a sense of humour . 

After years of hype and expectation, an earth shattering game changer was expected, but reality is probably going to be somewhat different


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## Mitch.Conner (Sep 2, 2014)

Tugela said:


> NancyP said:
> 
> 
> > Neuroanatomist wins the prize for best illustration. ;D
> ...



A white 7D?


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## Foxdude (Sep 2, 2014)

White 7D+ black 70-200 F2.8


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 2, 2014)

Tugela said:


> After years of hype and expectation, an earth shattering game changer was expected, but reality is probably going to be somewhat different



Expected by whom? Expected based on what facts? I expect a 7DII with a couple more MP, DPAF, substantially better better AF. All of that is completely consistent with Maeda's statements (e.g. a semi-pro APS-C camera that has evolved into new territory). If you want to treat rumor and misinterpretation (lots of people think Maeda said '*r*evolutionary, but he didn't) as fact, you have only yourself to blame if you're disappointed. 



Tugela said:


> No, he just lacks a sense of humour .



Not true. I laugh at troll posts like yours, dilbert's, et al., quite often.


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## Tugela (Sep 2, 2014)

Mitch.Conner said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > NancyP said:
> ...



No, camo, for all the wildlife photographers who are apparently the only people who will buy one


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## ScottyP (Sep 2, 2014)

As for pricing, there is no reason they have to increase. Look at flat panel TV's. every year or two for the last 20 years the TV's have gotten better and better at the same time that they were also holding the same price or even sometimes getting cheaper. Same thing with computers, laptops, Dvd/Blueray players, phones and other electronic things.


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## jrista (Sep 3, 2014)

[quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…

MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.[/quote]

http://www.canonwatch.com/interview-with-canons-tian-rong-makoto-7d-ii-not-a-story-of-the-day-so-far/

Maeda said the 7D successor would incorporate a certain number of innovative technologies. He said they would not be putting out a product "with merely better specs", but instead "one that has evolved into new territory."

Guess it depends on how you interpret that whether the product will be anticlimactic or not. It could be considered that 65pt AF, 20.2mp sensor, and DPAF is "incorporating a number of innovative technologies." It could also be considered that those new technologies are "merely better specs." 

What is the definition of a product that has "evolved into new territory?" DPAF isn't new, and neither is 20.2mp. A 65pt AF might be new, although it does sound a lot like the 61pt AF system...it would be "evolution" rather than "revolution." Overall, none of the rumored improvements really seem to take the 7D II into a "new area" per-se...but, it's still all just rumors.

Whole thing is still exceptionally vague.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2014)

jrista said:


> [quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…
> 
> MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.



http://www.canonwatch.com/interview-with-canons-tian-rong-makoto-7d-ii-not-a-story-of-the-day-so-far/

Maeda said the 7D successor would incorporate a certain number of innovative technologies. He said they would not be putting out a product "with merely better specs", but instead "one that has evolved into new territory."

Guess it depends on how you interpret that whether the product will be anticlimactic or not. It could be considered that 65pt AF, 20.2mp sensor, and DPAF is "incorporating a number of innovative technologies." It could also be considered that those new technologies are "merely better specs." 

What is the definition of a product that has "evolved into new territory?" *DPAF isn't new, and neither is 20.2mp.* A 65pt AF might be new, although it does sound a lot like the 61pt AF system...it would be "evolution" rather than "revolution." Overall, none of the rumored improvements really seem to take the 7D II into a "new area" per-se...but, it's still all just rumors.

Whole thing is still exceptionally vague.
[/quote]

Timing is everything, so allow me to clarify yours. The interview you quote was from January 2013. The 70D was announced six months later, in July 2013. DPAF was not known publicly at the time of the interview, and I'd certainly say that DPAF constitutes an evolution into new territory. 

61-pt vs 65-pt sounds like 'better spec', but consider that if the rumor is correct, the 7DII/X will have 65-pt *all cross-type* AF. That could be considered an evolution.


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## jrista (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > [quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…
> ...



Timing is everything, so allow me to clarify yours. The interview you quote was from January 2013. The 70D was announced six months later, in July 2013. DPAF was not known publicly at the time of the interview, and I'd certainly say that DPAF constitutes an evolution into new territory. 
[/quote]

Alright, fair point. 

However, given how far after both the 7D II is coming...DPAF *IS *known publically, and Canon _has already evolved_ into new territory with it (and with the 20.2mp sensor.) One would also have to assume that Maeda is intelligent enough to know that the 70D, which was clearly already in the pipeline and planned for release, would be "evolving into new territory" with DPAF...thereby taking the that particular feature out of the running for the 7D II, at least as far as new territory goes.

So maybe the timing between the interview and the 70D release is off. Does it actually change the core point of my previous point? 

If the point with the 7D II was to take that particular line into new territory, to not mere give it a bump up in feature specs, but make it something new and innovative...does reusing most of what the 70D brought to the table, and maybe dropping in a slightly evolved 1D X AF unit and meter...really achieve that goal? I'm not going to say it goes against what Maeda stated...he said the 7D II would "_evolve _into new territory"...so no one should really be expecting radical things with the 7D II.

All I am saying is...if people ultimately see the 7D II release as "anticlimactic"...I would understand. It doesn't sound like it's going to be bringing any major new technological innovations to the table, unless there is something particularly amazing and new about the 65pt AF system. It'll probably be like the 5D II-5D III upgrade. The whole package deal together, a complex of features combined, makes it a larger leap from the prior model....but no single feature will really stand out as being truly amazing or unknown or new.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2014)

jrista said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



Alright, fair point. 

However, given how far after both the 7D II is coming...DPAF *IS *known publically, and Canon _has already evolved_ into new territory with it (and with the 20.2mp sensor.) One would also have to assume that Maeda is intelligent enough to know that the 70D, which was clearly already in the pipeline and planned for release, would be "evolving into new territory" with DPAF...thereby taking the that particular feature out of the running for the 7D II, at least as far as new territory goes.

So maybe the timing between the interview and the 70D release is off. Does it actually change the core point of my previous point? 

If the point with the 7D II was to take that particular line into new territory, to not mere give it a bump up in feature specs, but make it something new and innovative...does reusing most of what the 70D brought to the table, and maybe dropping in a slightly evolved 1D X AF unit and meter...really achieve that goal? I'm not going to say it goes against what Maeda stated...he said the 7D II would "_evolve _into new territory"...so no one should really be expecting radical things with the 7D II.

All I am saying is...if people ultimately see the 7D II release as "anticlimactic"...I would understand. It doesn't sound like it's going to be bringing any major new technological innovations to the table, unless there is something particularly amazing and new about the 65pt AF system. It'll probably be like the 5D II-5D III upgrade. The whole package deal together, a complex of features combined, makes it a larger leap from the prior model....but no single feature will really stand out as being truly amazing or unknown or new.
[/quote]

I think what he said, subject to the vagaries of translation, is consistent with the 70D representing some of the evolution. 

Your final point is quite likely to be the case. Evolution ≠ revolution. 

People build stuff up in their mind, based on hearsay, conjecture, and rumor. That's a sure fire way to be disappointed later. 

We all know that every time Canon announces a new body, there's much whining and complaining. The only point I see to this thread is someone wants the whining and complaining to start even earlier. We call that type of someone a troll.


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## jrista (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> We all know that every time Canon announces a new body, there's much whining and complaining. The only point I see to this thread is someone wants the whining and complaining to start even earlier. We call that type of someone a troll.



Heh, I agree. Starting a thread for the purpose of complaining "early" is quite trollish. 

Well, what, two more days before NDAs are lifted? Won't be long.


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## Tugela (Sep 3, 2014)

jrista said:


> [quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…
> 
> MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.



http://www.canonwatch.com/interview-with-canons-tian-rong-makoto-7d-ii-not-a-story-of-the-day-so-far/

Maeda said the 7D successor would incorporate a certain number of innovative technologies. He said they would not be putting out a product "with merely better specs", but instead "one that has evolved into new territory."

Guess it depends on how you interpret that whether the product will be anticlimactic or not. It could be considered that 65pt AF, 20.2mp sensor, and DPAF is "incorporating a number of innovative technologies." It could also be considered that those new technologies are "merely better specs." 

What is the definition of a product that has "evolved into new territory?" DPAF isn't new, and neither is 20.2mp. A 65pt AF might be new, although it does sound a lot like the 61pt AF system...it would be "evolution" rather than "revolution." Overall, none of the rumored improvements really seem to take the 7D II into a "new area" per-se...but, it's still all just rumors.

Whole thing is still exceptionally vague.
[/quote]

Revolutionary would imply that the new camera would allow us to do what we couldn't before (either the 7D or any other camera). 

What is described in the rumored specs doesn't meet that test, so it isn't revolutionary. A camera like the GH4 is revolutionary. A camera like the a7s is revolutionary. A camera like the 7D was revolutionary. A camera like the 5D3 was revolutionary. Even the 70D was revolutionary. What is being described for the 7D2 so far is not. And therein lies the problem, but we shall see in a few days, hopefully


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## jrista (Sep 3, 2014)

Tugela said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > [quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…
> ...



Revolutionary would imply that the new camera would allow us to do what we couldn't before (either the 7D or any other camera). 

What is described in the rumored specs doesn't meet that test, so it isn't revolutionary. A camera like the GH4 is revolutionary. A camera like the a7s is revolutionary. A camera like the 7D was revolutionary. A camera like the 5D3 was revolutionary. Even the 70D was revolutionary. What is being described for the 7D2 so far is not. And therein lies the problem, but we shall see in a few days, hopefully 
[/quote]

I wouldn't necessarily call the 70D revolutionary. The DPAF technology in the 70D wasn't really even revolutionary...it was an evolutionary improvement on previous PDAF technology. It is actually very difficult to create something that is truly revolutionary, when you get down into the details. Very few things are going to be "revolutionary" in the camera industry. The 5D III was a MAJOR improvement over the 5D II, however relative to the whole market...it wasn't necessarily revolutionary. It got many of the things it required to remain a competitive DSLR line, and it inherited most of those improvements from other cameras that were previously released. The 61pt AF system came from the 1D X. The iFCL metering came from the 7D. The sensor inherited improvements originally designed, not even for the 1D X, but I believe the 1D C. 

I don't even know that I'd call the A7s revolutionary. It uses extensive in-camera processing to reduce noise. That was actually done by Canon with DIGIC 6, long before BionzX came out. Canon used the technology in pretty low-end devices, and therefor it did not really make many waves...but Canon started doing much of what BionzX is doing long before Sony did.

The only thing I would call truly revolutionary was the design of Exmor itself. It was a rather radical departure from conventional sensor design. The massive reduction in read noise it achieved (even in high-grade scientific CCD sensor design, read noise less than ~5e- is VERY rare, practically unheard of)...to have 3e- RN at ISO 100 is phenomenal!

Some would even argue that Exmor isn't even revolutionary, but that it was evolutionary, and cobbled together concepts and ideas from prior art. CP-ADC wasn't invented by Sony, it was actually described in papers years before. I think the amalgamation of CP-ADC and DCDS, along with moving the high-frequency clock to a remote die location, packaging the whole entire thing onto a single die with a purely digital readout system, was ultimately Sony's invention...but even the great Exmor could still be considered an evolution on top of previously devised concepts.

The 5D III (taken as a whole, the sum of all it's improvements), and Exmor, are probably the only two still photography camera improvements in recent years that I think legitimately qualify for the term "revolutionary." 

I doubt the 7D II will be considered the same, if most of it's technology is not really new.


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## Tugela (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > neuroanatomist said:
> ...



I think what he said, subject to the vagaries of translation, is consistent with the 70D representing some of the evolution. 

Your final point is quite likely to be the case. Evolution ≠ revolution. 

People build stuff up in their mind, based on hearsay, conjecture, and rumor. That's a sure fire way to be disappointed later. 

We all know that every time Canon announces a new body, there's much whining and complaining. The only point I see to this thread is someone wants the whining and complaining to start even earlier. We call that type of someone a troll.
[/quote]

No, the reason for starting the thread is to draw attention to the looming announcements, which will not only be about the 7D2. There are lots of other goodies probably coming as well.

The 7D2 one will probably be less than originally expected, hence the thread title. It is a joke, which some of you are apparently too serious to get . But there are other things as well, and that is something for all us to look forward too, even if it is just to get some idea of Canon's direction.


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## Tugela (Sep 3, 2014)

jrista said:


> Tugela said:
> 
> 
> > jrista said:
> ...



I wouldn't necessarily call the 70D revolutionary. The DPAF technology in the 70D wasn't really even revolutionary...it was an evolutionary improvement on previous PDAF technology. It is actually very difficult to create something that is truly revolutionary, when you get down into the details. Very few things are going to be "revolutionary" in the camera industry. The 5D III was a MAJOR improvement over the 5D II, however relative to the whole market...it wasn't necessarily revolutionary. It got many of the things it required to remain a competitive DSLR line, and it inherited most of those improvements from other cameras that were previously released. The 61pt AF system came from the 1D X. The iFCL metering came from the 7D. The sensor inherited improvements originally designed, not even for the 1D X, but I believe the 1D C. 

I don't even know that I'd call the A7s revolutionary. It uses extensive in-camera processing to reduce noise. That was actually done by Canon with DIGIC 6, long before BionzX came out. Canon used the technology in pretty low-end devices, and therefor it did not really make many waves...but Canon started doing much of what BionzX is doing long before Sony did.

The only thing I would call truly revolutionary was the design of Exmor itself. It was a rather radical departure from conventional sensor design. The massive reduction in read noise it achieved (even in high-grade scientific CCD sensor design, read noise less than ~5e- is VERY rare, practically unheard of)...to have 3e- RN at ISO 100 is phenomenal!

Some would even argue that Exmor isn't even revolutionary, but that it was evolutionary, and cobbled together concepts and ideas from prior art. CP-ADC wasn't invented by Sony, it was actually described in papers years before. I think the amalgamation of CP-ADC and DCDS, along with moving the high-frequency clock to a remote die location, packaging the whole entire thing onto a single die with a purely digital readout system, was ultimately Sony's invention...but even the great Exmor could still be considered an evolution on top of previously devised concepts.

The 5D III (taken as a whole, the sum of all it's improvements), and Exmor, are probably the only two still photography camera improvements in recent years that I think legitimately qualify for the term "revolutionary." 

I doubt the 7D II will be considered the same, if most of it's technology is not really new.
[/quote]

Well, every "new" tech is going to come from something that existed in one form or another. The main thing is how the product it is integrated into is used. Perhaps elements of what was in those other cameras already existed somewhere else, but it is the application that represents the revolutionary step, not the tech itself.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2014)

Tugela said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > [quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…
> ...



Revolutionary would imply that the new camera would allow us to do what we couldn't before (either the 7D or any other camera). 

What is described in the rumored specs doesn't meet that test, so it isn't revolutionary. A camera like the GH4 is revolutionary. A camera like the a7s is revolutionary. A camera like the 7D was revolutionary. A camera like the 5D3 was revolutionary. Even the 70D was revolutionary. What is being described for the 7D2 so far is not. And therein lies the problem, but we shall see in a few days, hopefully 
[/quote]

Sorry, I missed where someone from Canon said the 7D successor would be "revolutionary". Could you point that out, please?


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## cnardo (Sep 3, 2014)

Sept 5th ...........in what time zone?....... and at midnight???, ....... or at 8am??? ....or high noon???


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## Aglet (Sep 3, 2014)

Hmmm.. this could be considered evolutionary.
They could go with ML tech and the DPAF system but expand AF system function like this:

- Joystick to move AF area wherever you want
- control wheel to make active AF area whatever size you want
- maybe even without a mirror in the way, increasing fps and reducing vibration would mean slightly increased sharpness possible
- add a hybrid viewfinder that overlays the selected AF location and size (AF area shape could be an option too)
- Mirror-up operation with hybrid EVF display of image + info overlays.

This could make for a very flexible and usable AF and metering system while still being a "DSLR."

So many interesting things could be done..
will be interesting to see what actually escapes, er, get's released.

And please, for the love of DRones, dat sensu betta be betta_ big time!_


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## Don Haines (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Sorry, I missed where someone from Canon said the 7D successor would be "revolutionary". Could you point that out, please?


Revolutionary is in reference to the mode dial. It will revolve all the way around.... Hence "revolutionary"....


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## RickWagoner (Sep 3, 2014)

SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-pictures-of-the-ilce-qx1-e-mount-camera/


The 7D2 better be one amazing piece or it won't get much talk.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2014)

RickWagoner said:


> SONY is about to drop Something that has *never done before*..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone.



Yet they never stopped to ask _why_...

This is just an ILC mount version of older thingamabobs they launched a while back. I expect this will be even less popular. 

SONY: "Because we can."


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## Random Orbits (Sep 3, 2014)

RickWagoner said:


> SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-pictures-of-the-ilce-qx1-e-mount-camera/
> 
> 
> The 7D2 better be one amazing piece or it won't get much talk.



A friend expressed interest in this. He had used their previous version and liked the idea of it. I asked why when it is so much more unwieldy. His answer: it's more portable than it looks, but, mostly, because he can than edit it (i.e. Instagram) and post immediately. Is that a better workflow than having a WiFi capable camera and transferring the files to a phone/computer? I have no idea, but then I don't have a smartphone either, so I'm usually carrying the DSLR or EOS-M most places anyway.


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## Don Haines (Sep 3, 2014)

RickWagoner said:


> SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-pictures-of-the-ilce-qx1-e-mount-camera/



Ergonomics are passé...


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## Mitch.Conner (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > SONY is about to drop Something that has *never done before*..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone.
> ...



Maybe, but did you see you can get a QX10 in Pink and Gold now? LOL. I thought those were silly when I first saw them in black and silver. I guess they've sold acceptably though if they're making these clip on phonetography accessories in different focal lengths and colors now.


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## Steve Balcombe (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


>



Active ingredients
Truth ................................... 100%

Since when has truth been effective against trolls?!


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## raptor3x (Sep 3, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-pictures-of-the-ilce-qx1-e-mount-camera/
> ...



If you've held an A7/R/S for more than 30 minutes before you'd probably think that was becoming Sony's motto.


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## jrista (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> RickWagoner said:
> 
> 
> > SONY is about to drop Something that has *never done before*..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone.
> ...



I agree with this. If your going to buy a camera, might as well buy a camera. Otherwise just use the one built into the phone...that;s kind of the whole point of phone cameras: Ultimate convenience, no extra cost.


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## MichaelHodges (Sep 3, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> SONY: "Because we can."




That's what science is.

I prefer a go-getter attitude rather than one that dismisses developments in favor of status quo.


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## jrista (Sep 3, 2014)

MichaelHodges said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > SONY: "Because we can."
> ...



It's a little more complex than that. At least, the way I see it. There are useful innovations, and there are frivolous innovations. There are finite R&D budgets, and I think it's important that companies invest money where there is long term growth value. You can invest lots of little pools of money in a lot of experimental products, many of which (the majority of which, most likely) are going to fail...resulting in a lot of waste in the end. Or, you can invest in a few product lines that really pique the customers interest, then focus on those lines and refine them over time. Maybe add a new product periodically as the market shows a clear demand for it. 

There is certainly a fine balance. Canon is conservative, Sony and Nikon are not. The former is probably too conservative these days, holding back on innovations that should slingshot them back into the competitive foreground. The latter two seem to take a bit of a shotgun approach...jam out a whole ton of products and see which ones stick. Or, crank out some niche products with various groups of features, see which ones stick, then iteratively refine over a lot of shorter product cycles. (The former runs the risk of being very costly when products fail, the latter runs the risk of pissing off customers who only recently purchased your very expensive prior product become unhappy when a new and improved version is released too quickly.)

Camera companies aren't scientific companies per-say. They are commercial companies in business to make money and sell products.


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 3, 2014)

MichaelHodges said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > SONY: "Because we can."
> ...



Maybe for some. Personally, as a scientist I prefer hypothesis-driven research. 'Because we can' does seem a good way to waste federal grant money, though...


----------



## Tugela (Sep 3, 2014)

RickWagoner said:


> SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-pictures-of-the-ilce-qx1-e-mount-camera/
> 
> 
> The 7D2 better be one amazing piece or it won't get much talk.



There is also the Samsung NX1 coming at Photokina, which seems to have pretty decent capabilities. The 7D2 is not going to have the show to itself, it will have to compete for attention I think.


----------



## MichaelHodges (Sep 3, 2014)

jrista said:


> There are useful innovations, and there are frivolous innovations.



You can't have either without the other.


----------



## jrista (Sep 3, 2014)

MichaelHodges said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > There are useful innovations, and there are frivolous innovations.
> ...



Sure. However, it's one thing to do some research on a frivolous innovation. It's another to try and make it a profitable product. How many people walk around (or even want to walk around) with a giant camera lens and sensor tacked onto the back of their smartphone...when their smartphone already has a camera? ;P

It's an interesting innovation. I'm betting there isn't really all that much of a market for it. Nothing even remotely compared to the DSLR market.


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 4, 2014)

Its beginning to look like Canon will have more than one announcement. They might be on different days.

They usually do not announce point and shoot cameras along with high end DSLR's.

If the 7D MK II were coming tomorrow, we should have information by now. The only reason I can think of for a lack of firm information at this point is that Canon has not yet sent promotional information to their printers, preferring a early announcement and leaving time for printing to be done on a expedited basis before Photokina. Canon is just paranoid enough about security that it might be true.


----------



## RickWagoner (Sep 4, 2014)

jrista said:


> How many people walk around (or even want to walk around) with a giant camera lens and sensor tacked onto the back of their smartphone...when their smartphone already has a camera? ;P




The same number of people who are keeping the DSLR market alive today. Beyond the majority of DSLR sales are people wanting something better than the camera on their phone, going strait to entry level DSLR. The Camera market is tiny compared to years before because most people have a perfect camera on their phone today and no need to buy or carry anything extra. The only saving grace is the bridge and entry level DSLR markets, but those buyers are by far the majority coming from smartphones. 

What SONY has done is give that smartphone user wanting a DSLR something no one else has, A true DSLR sensor on their smart phone they already love! SONY knows where they're selling and where their is growth, the QX series have been strong, most of the sales on the lower end Qx10 though. That Group is why Canon is selling 5 entry level bodies and that group is also what is paying Canons bills right now, the same group you ask...
ow many people walk around (or even want to walk around) with a giant camera lens and sensor tacked onto the back of their smartphone...when their smartphone already has a camera? 

Don't ever forget the lower end of the market, they're the profit of the company and they're the future of the company. Forget them today then you can forget about your company tomorrow. SONY has been biting hard to get the lower end in for a long time, and their size and what they can do can eat up Nikon and Canon together if they get enough lower end entry level buyers in. Remember Canon and Nikon are optics companies not technology giants, their strength is in the glass today. Canon sells at least 20 t5's to every one 6D, probably sells 10 6D's to every one 5D. That is where their money and future is and what pays for new research for new 1d series stuff. Lots of first time DSLR, coming from smart phone buyers are buying the 6D btw.


----------



## Tugela (Sep 4, 2014)

RickWagoner said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > How many people walk around (or even want to walk around) with a giant camera lens and sensor tacked onto the back of their smartphone...when their smartphone already has a camera? ;P
> ...



I have never seen one of these things in the wild, but I have seen plenty of real Sony cameras. So I think your opinion of how popular these clip on lenses are is misplaced.

No doubt they did sell a bunch, but I suspect that people quickly realized it was just a gimmick, so they don't actually use them much.


----------



## Sabaki (Sep 4, 2014)

"Canon is proud to present the RC-6 mkii!

This isn't remotely (gettit!?) different from the first but has the mark ii designation!"


----------



## raptor3x (Sep 4, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> "Canon is proud to present the RC-6 mkii!
> 
> This isn't remotely (gettit!?) different from the first but has the mark ii designation!"



You joke, but if Canon started building radio receives into the bodies to accommodate future RT flashes and added a small radio remote like the RC-6 that would be pretty awesome.


----------



## Tugela (Sep 4, 2014)

raptor3x said:


> Sabaki said:
> 
> 
> > "Canon is proud to present the RC-6 mkii!
> ...



Hey! The "mark ii" designation is innovation!!


----------



## cnardo (Sep 4, 2014)

Hey... it is 3:30pm Thursday 9/4 here in California.... but 7:30 am Sept 5th in Japan... when do the NDAs expire??????? ???


----------



## racebit (Sep 5, 2014)

cnardo said:


> Hey... it is 3:30pm Thursday 9/4 here in California.... but 7:30 am Sept 5th in Japan... when do the NDAs expire??????? ???



I set 5/11 on my calendar several months ago, but latest CR rumor says 15/11.
I don't understand how it is possible to delay announcement if the NDA expires. How can they force everyone to accept NDA extension?


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 5, 2014)

racebit said:


> cnardo said:
> 
> 
> > Hey... it is 3:30pm Thursday 9/4 here in California.... but 7:30 am Sept 5th in Japan... when do the NDAs expire??????? ???
> ...


The NDA is RUMOURED to expire September 5....

Everything is speculation. There is no solid and believable information until Canon makes an announcement. You can bet that Canon will make several announcements during Photokina, so if you don't hear something on the first announcement, it does not mean that it isn't going to happen.


----------



## racebit (Sep 5, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> racebit said:
> 
> 
> > cnardo said:
> ...



That means the NDA expiration date is part of the NDA as well, else everyone could confirm the date and there would be no place for rumor there. For sure there some NDA to expire sometime soon.


----------



## 20Dave (Sep 5, 2014)

racebit said:


> Don Haines said:
> 
> 
> > The NDA is RUMOURED to expire September 5....
> ...



I have been bound by NDAs that prohibited mentioning that we had even signed an NDA agreement, so not being able to disclose the date when they expired wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## NancyP (Sep 5, 2014)

Canon execs ought to be kissing the ground in gratitude for having users counting down the hours to the next camera announcement.


----------



## EchoLocation (Sep 5, 2014)

the fact of the matter is, a 7DII with an improved AF, higher FPS and a sensor similar to the 70D is a disappointment.
not because the specs are so terrible or it's not a significant upgrade but because it took so long to be announced. This camera could have been announced a year or two ago and wouldn't have been shocking. 
At this point, people perceive Canon's sensor performance as stagnating. It was hoped that the 7DII would be the camera to change this. With a sensor similar to previous models it reinforces the notion that Canon has not been able to significantly improve upon sensor performance. This is Canon's own fault for releasing so many 18mp sensor cameras and then the rather uninspiring 70D. 
Back to my original point, all of these missteps would be less annoying if the 7DII had been announced a year or two ago. But by slowly drawing it out and building hype and excitement they have set themselves up for disappointment from people who already own similar products from the past and want something newer feeling.


----------



## jrista (Sep 5, 2014)

EchoLocation said:


> the fact of the matter is, a 7DII with an improved AF, higher FPS and a sensor similar to the 70D is a disappointment.
> not because the specs are so terrible or it's not a significant upgrade but because it took so long to be announced. This camera could have been announced a year or two ago and wouldn't have been shocking.
> At this point, people perceive Canon's sensor performance as stagnating. It was hoped that the 7DII would be the camera to change this. With a sensor similar to previous models it reinforces the notion that Canon has not been able to significantly improve upon sensor performance. This is Canon's own fault for releasing so many 18mp sensor cameras and then the rather uninspiring 70D.
> Back to my original point, all of these missteps would be less annoying if the 7DII had been announced a year or two ago. But by slowly drawing it out and building hype and excitement they have set themselves up for disappointment from people who already own similar products from the past and want something newer feeling.



Be careful. Saying things like that on these forums is likely to brine the Ire of the Canonites down upon you. ;P

(I personally don't disagree...just giving you fair warning for what's likely to come next.)


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2014)

jrista said:


> Be careful. Saying things like that on these forums is likely to brine the Ire of the Canonites down upon you. ;P



Ire? No. But at this point I would like to see a new forum rule. Before complaining about a Canon sensor vs. any other sensor on the market, one must post RAW files in accordance with the following:

* Scene must be real world and not a contrived test scene.

* Both cameras must be shot at the same time under the same lighting conditions.

* Exposure must be optimal and correct for each sensor (which means it may or may not be the same for each sensor).

* Any converted examples (JPEGs) for forum display must include at least one pair where standard RAW converter settings are applied to each, and this pair must clearly illustrate the issue being complained about.

* The RAW files with full EXIF must be provided for download so that others may offer corrections and advice.

* Failure to comply results in either a locked thread with the reason given (i.e. "This is thread is locked because the author underexposed a black cat in a coal mine and then pushed the exposure 5+ stops in ACR with no NR"), or a deleted thread with a warning to the offender. Repeated attempts? Ban.

This would instantly kill 99% of the trolling, fantasy, and worthless chatter on the subject. But someone with legitimate testing and insight could start an interesting conversation grounded in reality.


----------



## Aglet (Sep 5, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> Ire? No. But at this point I would like to see a new forum rule. Before complaining about a Canon sensor vs. any other sensor on the market, one must post RAW files in accordance with the following:



Would you (or others you believe would ascribe to this philosophy) also be willing to supply said raw files from your new 7D2, 5D4, or whatever comes along, shot as required with a lens cap on, in a totally darkened environment so that others could examine them to measure read noise and other sensor-system performance information that can be found that way?
.. so it could be compared to previous generations to quantify any performance changes in certain areas.


----------



## Maiaibing (Sep 5, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> This would instantly kill 99% of the trolling, fantasy, and worthless chatter on the subject. But someone with legitimate testing and insight could start an interesting conversation grounded in reality.



Sadly, it would not. Since the most of baseless claims backed by neither samples or other supporting evidence - even if asked for - comes from the people that refuse to let facts be an important part of the discussions here. And that includes the I-will-blindly-claim-the-superiority-of-Canon-in-the-face-of-any-facts crowd which is (unsurprisingly) in the majority here at CR.

However, I find it really funny, that you intuitively think that only claims of Canon sensor tech being inferior constitutes "trolling" and would need to be censored...


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> jrista said:
> 
> 
> > Be careful. Saying things like that on these forums is likely to brine the Ire of the Canonites down upon you. ;P
> ...



Was done a thousand times on the web already.
Result was that canon sensors are not able to push shadows as far as Sony/Nikon sensors and DR is 1 generation behind.

But then something else was wrong that made the Canon sensor not perform at it´s best.

Fort example the T-shirt from the photographer was not pink or saturn was in the wrong position.


----------



## x-vision (Sep 5, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> at this point I would like to see a new forum rule.
> 
> ...
> 
> * Failure to comply results in ... Ban.



OMG, you _*are*_ the Canon police. I knew it 8).


----------



## x-vision (Sep 5, 2014)

EchoLocation said:


> the fact of the matter is, a 7DII with an improved AF, higher FPS and a sensor similar to the 70D is a disappointment.
> not because the specs are so terrible or it's not a significant upgrade but because it took so long to be announced. This camera could have been announced a year or two ago and wouldn't have been shocking.
> At this point, people perceive Canon's sensor performance as stagnating. It was hoped that the 7DII would be the camera to change this. With a sensor similar to previous models it reinforces the notion that Canon has not been able to significantly improve upon sensor performance. This is Canon's own fault for releasing so many 18mp sensor cameras and then the rather uninspiring 70D.
> Back to my original point, all of these missteps would be less annoying if the 7DII had been announced a year or two ago. But by slowly drawing it out and building hype and excitement they have set themselves up for disappointment from people who already own similar products from the past and want something newer feeling.



+1000

Just to clarify, though: the hype was created by us, Canon users - not by Canon.

But on the other hand, I don't think the expectations of Canon uses have been unreasonable.

Over the years, the DxO overall scores for Nikon crop cameras have improved from 61 (D80) to 83 (D7100).
For the same period of time, Canon has improved from 62 (20D) to 68 (70D).
So, it's a 21-point improvement for Nikon vs 6 points for Canon (and it's the exact same story for FF cameras as well). 

So, when the 7DII scores 69 at DxO, should I be disappointed - or am I supposed to cheer ??
Is it that unreasonable for Canon users to want to a more sizable improvement ??


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

x-vision said:


> So, when the 7DII scores 69 at DxO, should I be disappointed - or am I supposed to cheer ??
> Is it that unreasonable for Canon users to want to a more sizable improvement ??



Let us be happy when it is not a drop... like the drop from the 550D to 600D. :


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2014)

EchoLocation said:


> At this point, people perceive Canon's sensor performance as stagnating.



No doubt people do. Just not enough people to affect market share. 




EchoLocation said:


> It was hoped that the 7DII would be the camera to change this.



Hoped by some people on the Internet, yes. The majority of camera buyers don't really care. 




EchoLocation said:


> Back to my original point, all of these missteps would be less annoying if the 7DII had been announced a year or two ago. But by slowly drawing it out and building hype and excitement they have set themselves up for disappointment from people who already own similar products from the past and want something newer feeling.



What missteps? 18 months ago, the 7D was still selling very well. The 70D took a big bite out of that (unsurprisingly). Canon then dropped the price to boost 7D sales (which it did), and made even more profit. 

You're quite welcome to be disappointed in the 7DII/X. Somehow : it will be an extremely popular camera despite your feelings on the matter.


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2014)

Aglet said:


> Would you (or others you believe would ascribe to this philosophy) also be willing to supply said raw files from your new 7D2, 5D4, or whatever comes along, shot as required with a lens cap on, in a totally darkened environment



Real world scene...properly exposed..."lens cap on, totally darkened environment."

Wow. Just...wow ;D


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> You're quite welcome to be disappointed in the 7DII/X. Somehow : it will be an extremely popular camera despite your feelings on the matter.



wind repeat... wind repeat.... wind repeat. ;D

You are happy Canon is making well selling, solid but mediocre products that lack the wow factor... others not.

They will never care if Canon makes a profit that way and you will never stop wasting your time repeating the same stuff. ;D


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2014)

Maiaibing said:


> However, I find it really funny, that you intuitively think that only claims of Canon sensor tech being inferior constitutes "trolling" and would need to be censored...



You see a lot of threads being started by Canon fans claiming Exmor sucks or something??? ???


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> You see a lot of threads being started by Canon fans claiming Exmor sucks or something??? ???



No of course not, why should they lie?


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2014)

Canonicon said:


> Was done a thousand times on the web already.



What's up with people and reading comprehension today??? ???

I'm aware of two, and both violated this (at least): _* Any converted examples (JPEGs) for forum display must include at least one pair where standard RAW converter settings are applied to each, and this pair must clearly illustrate the issue being complained about._

Turning all NR off is NOT standard.


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> Canonicon said:
> 
> 
> > Was done a thousand times on the web already.
> ...



Yeah yeah whatever makes you sleep better.
But what about the T-shirt? Has it to be pink or is rose ok too?

Canon sensors are as good as Sonys.. everyone is wrong except Canon fanboys.


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2014)

x-vision said:


> dtaylor said:
> 
> 
> > at this point I would like to see a new forum rule.
> ...



Now where did my badge go...??? ;D



> Over the years, the DxO overall scores for Nikon crop cameras have improved from 61 (D80) to 83 (D7100).
> For the same period of time, Canon has improved from 62 (20D) to 68 (70D).
> So, it's a 21-point improvement for Nikon vs 6 points for Canon (and it's the exact same story for FF cameras as well).



Quoting DxO should be an automatic lifetime ban for anyone on any forum at any time ;D

You know what? Same for Tony Northrup.

Pretty harsh considering I would only give verbal warnings for quoting Ken Rockwell ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> x-vision said:
> 
> 
> > dtaylor said:
> ...



Or maybe you should be banned?
Just so.. because i think that´s ok?


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2014)

Canonicon said:


> dtaylor said:
> 
> 
> > You see a lot of threads being started by Canon fans claiming Exmor sucks or something??? ???
> ...



Check overhead...the point just flew by ;D

This board has a problem with people hijacking every popular thread to discuss Exmor shadow noise. The requirements for reasonable real world examples would a) chill all the extravagant claims and fantasy on the topic, and b) force the trolls to do some work meaning they would stop hijacking every thread.


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2014)

Canonicon said:


> Yeah yeah whatever makes you sleep better.



Horse laugh.



> But what about the T-shirt? Has it to be pink or is rose ok too?



Smokescreen.



> Canon sensors are as good as Sonys.. everyone is wrong except Canon fanboys.



Straw men. (Nobody has ever claimed either.)

And you wonder why I made that post :


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> Canonicon said:
> 
> 
> > dtaylor said:
> ...



When people want to talk about it who are you to tell them not to?
Who says it´s a problem?

Ok when it´s every thread then there is maybe a little problem. 
But i doubt it is every thread. In threads about Camera bodys i think it´s ok.

I am Canon user and i want to talk about it!

If you don´t, ignore the threads or postings.
It´s simple. I do it all the time with other topics. 

And as Neuro would say "it´s ok when people are interested in it. even when you don´t like it".


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2014)

Canonicon said:


> Or maybe you should be banned?
> Just so.. because i think that´s ok?



Maybe you could get a sense of humor?


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> Canonicon said:
> 
> 
> > Or maybe you should be banned?
> ...



Oh i have but i expect other to see it without using smileys.


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2014)

Canonicon said:


> When people want to talk about it who are you to tell them not to?



I never said you shouldn't be able to talk about it.



> Ok when it´s every thread then there is maybe a little problem.



Exactly ;D



> I am Canon user and i want to talk about it!



Question: does this mean you would like to discuss real world differences and therefore could produce RAW files as I described? Or does it mean you want a 100 page thread where people talk talk talk about imagined differences or differences never seen in the real world?


----------



## dtaylor (Sep 5, 2014)

Well I guess it is the day of the anti-climatic announcement since there's no announcement yet 

Once again...Sony press releases have more DR (dynamic rumors) then Canon's!!!


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> Question: does this mean you would like to discuss real world differences and therefore could produce RAW files as I described? Or does it mean you want a 100 page thread where people talk talk talk about imagined differences or differences never seen in the real world?



I find those rare threads more interesting that show D800 vs. 5D MK3 examples.

But i also have to say that when i saw such a thread i was always impressed by the EXMOR performance when it comes to lifting shadows. Always!

So i understand when people see such examples and talk about it.
Not everyone has a 5D Mk3 and a D800 to do his own tests.

Im happy with Canons quality so far.. but for the future.. when they want my money again.... Canon has to do more.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2014)

It's important for the dark-frame-exposing-no-NR-pushers, the Exmor lovers, and disgruntled DRones to have an outlet of some sort. It would be a painful blow to their egos to realize or admit to themselves that their beliefs are shared by so few others, and have no meaningful impact on the decisions made by the majority of camera buyers or by Canon.


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> It's important for the dark-frame-exposing-no-NR-pushers, the Exmor lovers, and disgruntled DRones to have an outlet of some sort. It would be a painful blow to their egos to realize or admit to themselves that their beliefs are shared by so few others, and have no meaningful impact on the decisions made by the majority of camera buyers or by Canon.



And the fanboys would lose a chance to post 14000+ postings about stuff they never fail to say is unimportant.

Yet they manage to fill days replying to them.


----------



## HurtinMinorKey (Sep 5, 2014)

So i'm guessing the NDA expiration was nothing?


----------



## AcutancePhotography (Sep 5, 2014)

HurtinMinorKey said:


> So i'm guessing the NDA expiration was nothing?



Just because an NDA expires does not mean that the signers are obligated to post information.


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 5, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> HurtinMinorKey said:
> 
> 
> > So i'm guessing the NDA expiration was nothing?
> ...



It was rumoured that the NDAs would expire today....
Just like the dozen or so versions of the 7D2 specs are rumoured....
Just like the various lens releases are rumours.....

Don't believe anything until it is officially announced.


----------



## HurtinMinorKey (Sep 5, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> HurtinMinorKey said:
> 
> 
> > So i'm guessing the NDA expiration was nothing?
> ...



Obligated, no. Incentivized, yes.


----------



## RickWagoner (Sep 5, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
> 
> 
> > HurtinMinorKey said:
> ...



If people got the NDA thing wrong just imagine what else about the 7Dii they got wrong. 

48mp quad pixel autofocus
GPS, dual wifi, NFC, Bluetooth.
24 fps burst with a 100+ buffer with RAW
Weather sealed, waterproof to 300m, deep space proof.
6k video record at 240fps
$1800.


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

AcutancePhotography said:


> HurtinMinorKey said:
> 
> 
> > So i'm guessing the NDA expiration was nothing?
> ...



Yes. When they have a website that would result in hits. 
Who wants that? ;D


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> AcutancePhotography said:
> 
> 
> > HurtinMinorKey said:
> ...



You mean even the date the NDA expires is a secret?
And CR guy has not even solid information about that?

Canon... talking about paranoid.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 5, 2014)

Canonicon said:


> You mean even the date the NDA expires is a secret?



It's quite a common business practice for the details about and even the existence of an NDA to be included as part of the NDA.


----------



## Canonicon (Sep 5, 2014)

What about this guy who claims to have access to all kind of prototyps?
Some 3 letter nickname, starting with M... if i remember right.

Someone knows who i mean?

Is he gone now that the time of truth is closing in?


----------



## Don Haines (Sep 5, 2014)

neuroanatomist said:


> Canonicon said:
> 
> 
> > You mean even the date the NDA expires is a secret?
> ...



The standard NDA form here at work prohibits mentioning the NDA... and it usually has NO expiry date.

BTW, If I were Canon, I would not pick a date for it to expire, I would have it expire AFTER Canon makes an official announcement....


----------



## Famateur (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm confused. I've read the whole thread so far expecting a debate on...global warming. 

*Author Topic: The day of the anti-climatic announcement (Read 7518 times) *


----------



## mackguyver (Sep 5, 2014)

Famateur said:


> I'm confused. I've read the whole thread so far expecting a debate on...global warming.
> 
> *Author Topic: The day of the anti-climatic announcement (Read 7518 times) *


LOL, Anticlima*c*tic is the correct word to use here...


----------



## Mt Spokane Photography (Sep 5, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Canonicon said:
> ...



The copies occasionally posted give a expiration date. 

The reason is that various blogs and camera stores are giving advertising materials and information to update their store pages. It takes time to do this, and lots of manufacturers are busy announcing new products.

This allows stores to set a time and date that will move web pages to active status, or at least, have them ready to publish.

This is also how leaks can happen, errors with website security, or just plain blunders.

Canon is so uptight about secrecy, that they are apparently cutting out of the loop many of those who received information in the past. Even Canon executives with no need to know are excluded.


----------



## dgatwood (Sep 5, 2014)

Don Haines said:


> neuroanatomist said:
> 
> 
> > Canonicon said:
> ...




In my experience, these sorts of NDAs typically have an NDA well after the expected announcement date, or after the information is disclosed by someone else (i.e. the company), whichever happens first. Then, close to the announcement date (once you're certain that you're going to announce it), companies typically release information to the press, and make it embargoed until the actual announcement date.

That said, Canon may do things differently.


----------



## jeffa4444 (Sep 6, 2014)

NDAs do normally require any sensitive material not to be discussed once those details are in the public domain the NDAs enforcement is pretty meaningless.


----------



## CanonOregon (Sep 6, 2014)

Someone needs to figure out what bar the Canon engineers hit on their way home from work.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2011/0901/Secret-iPhone-prototype-left-at-a-bar-again


----------



## takesome1 (Sep 6, 2014)

mackguyver said:


> Famateur said:
> 
> 
> > I'm confused. I've read the whole thread so far expecting a debate on...global warming.
> ...



I say let the debate begin;
By mid January I will once again be pro global warming.


----------



## neuroanatomist (Sep 6, 2014)

takesome1 said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > Famateur said:
> ...



If Canon doesn't announce dramatic reductions in carbon emissions at Photokina, I'm switching to Nikon.


----------



## jrista (Sep 6, 2014)

takesome1 said:


> mackguyver said:
> 
> 
> > Famateur said:
> ...



LOL, me too. I think were in for a COOOOLD one this year, so I suspect I'll be a big fan of carbon emissions come December 1st.


----------



## EchoLocation (Sep 6, 2014)

dtaylor said:


> Ire? No. But at this point I would like to see a new forum rule. Before complaining about a Canon sensor vs. any other sensor on the market, one must post RAW files in accordance with the following:


i'm not complaining about the sensor per se. I'm complaining about Canon's willingness to tread water and simply rehash products again and again and again. While it is true that they sell more than other companies, I think it is also true that their recent products have been a tad dull over the past 5 years.
When I first bought a DSLR, I purchased a 550D.
I realized after I bought it that it had the same sensor as the 7D. By the time I thought of upgrading to the 7D in 2012, it already seemed like an old camera to me(it was 3 years old at this point,) and although it had better features then the 550D, the images would be more or less the same. 
Then came the 600D, 650D, 700D, 60D, SL1, EOS-M, EOS-M2, etc.... and since 2009, no upgrade to the 7D. 
By now, the 7D is ancient and way past it's prime. If the sensor isn't changed significantly from previous models, I don't see why it shouldn't have been released in late 2012 or 2013. 
Five years between refreshes of consumer electronics products is way too long and at this point Canon deserves a bit of ridicule for their lack of fresh products.


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## ULFULFSEN (Sep 6, 2014)

*It will be a short visit at the Canon booth in Cologne.

A 7D II with basically the same IQ as the prior model.

No new 100-400mm lens.

No new UWZ.

No new 135mm IS, 85mm IS or 50mm IS.

Only a few boring Powershots i guess.

I rather spend time at the Sony booth or Sigma booth (150-600mm) or look at Samsungs NX1. And i have to say that as a longtime Canon user, what a pity.

*


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## Maiaibing (Sep 6, 2014)

EchoLocation said:


> I'm complaining about Canon's willingness to tread water and simply rehash products again and again and again. While it is true that they sell more than other companies, I think it is also true that their recent products have been a tad dull over the past 5 years.



Last product to showcase Canon as an innovation leader and to truly excite was announced almost 6 years ago to the day: the 5Dii on SEP 17, 2008...

Hope the 5Div will change that. The 7D will not by all rumored accounts so far.


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## ULFULFSEN (Sep 6, 2014)

Maiaibing said:


> EchoLocation said:
> 
> 
> > I'm complaining about Canon's willingness to tread water and simply rehash products again and again and again. While it is true that they sell more than other companies, I think it is also true that their recent products have been a tad dull over the past 5 years.
> ...



Yes, and that is why i bought one.

Since then Canon has produced no cameras that made me upgrade.

It´s like INTEL... today you can still be happy with a Sandy Bridge CPU.

7D -> 7D II is like Sandy Bridge -> Ivy Bridge.

When you are a poweruser you don´t use the internal GPU anyway.
And that´s the main part, beside powersaving, INTEL has improved.
The overall performance boost is too small to justify buying a new Ivy Bridge or Haswell CPU and motherboard.

So i sticked for years to my Sandy Bridge.
Only yet i begin to think about buying a 6 Core Haswell-E.

Before Sandy Bridge i upgraded to every new CPU generation.


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## zim (Sep 6, 2014)

If you all feel so bad why not go to photokina and tell them to their face how S___ there products are?
While your at it take a placard or two!

Personally I'm struggling to process a backlog of pics cos my computer is by far the weakest link in my chain, that's the only upgrade with real benefit for me, couldn't give a rats arse about sensors right now


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## ULFULFSEN (Sep 6, 2014)

zim said:


> If you all feel so bad why not go to photokina and tell them to their face how S___ there products are?
> While your at it take a placard or two!
> 
> Personally I'm struggling to process a backlog of pics cos my computer is by far the weakest link in my chain, that's the only upgrade with real benefit for me, couldn't give a rats arse about sensors right now



You pay them the flight ticket? ;D
Get real!

And do you know who stands on those booths?
I could tell it to my dog with the same effect.

But Canon could make a website where users can post their complains, wishes and ideas... how about that?

Oh and Canon should hire a few people who actually read it.


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## the blackfox (Sep 6, 2014)

sept 6th and still waiting ,FFS someone light the fuse will ya ,the suspense is killing me ,i won't even use my free bus pass in case i spend anything ;D


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## RickWagoner (Sep 6, 2014)

ULFULFSEN said:


> Maiaibing said:
> 
> 
> > EchoLocation said:
> ...



NEw chips are about Size and power use, you know that already. Keep building piece by piece smaller and smaller. Intel is the truest follower of Moores law and that is a great thing! The i7 920 Bloomfield was the last best for available speed and power. One could easily over clock it to 4 cooled by air easily.


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## ULFULFSEN (Sep 6, 2014)

RickWagoner said:


> ULFULFSEN said:
> 
> 
> > Maiaibing said:
> ...



To bad im not interested in power per watt. 
I need processing power for Cinema 4D and After Effects.
So more cores or more overall performance is what i need.

Intel is doing only small steps in overall performance per CPU and did not offer more cores on a CPU for a reasonable price. 

It´s only now with the 6 Core Haswell-E for around 350 euro that i think about upgrading. 

The options before provide either not a big enough step to justify the upgrade or they are too expensive.

I am in the same situation with Canon, to stay on topic.

Why should i, as Landscape and Portrait shooter, buy a 5D MK3?
My images look identical with the MK2 i have. The better AF is wasted for my needs.
I can not crop more or enlarge more (with 36MP i could).
ISO performance in the LOW ISO regions i use is nearly identical too.


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## dtaylor (Sep 6, 2014)

EchoLocation said:


> By now, the 7D is ancient and way past it's prime. If the sensor isn't changed significantly from previous models, I don't see why it shouldn't have been released in late 2012 or 2013.



Because nothing touches it even today. Nikon abandoned this market segment. Sony simply can't AF track as well regardless of their claims. Pentax doesn't have the glass to compete even if they live up to their paper specs.

You want crop for pro sports? 7D.

If Nikon had released a D300 successor that challenged the 7D and took sales away then we would have seen a 7D mkII much sooner.


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## ULFULFSEN (Sep 6, 2014)

So back to topic.
The day is gone and nothing about a 7D II surfaced.

So we can assume that the NDA expiration date was wrong and there will be no more infos before the official announcement.

Keeping the tension up.... the hope that there will be more to it than what was rumored.


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## zim (Sep 6, 2014)

ULFULFSEN said:


> zim said:
> 
> 
> > If you all feel so bad why not go to photokina and tell them to their face how S___ there products are?
> ...



Regards
PS my comments weren't really directed at you


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## neuroanatomist (Sep 6, 2014)

ULFULFSEN said:


> But Canon could make a website where users can post their complains, wishes and ideas... how about that?
> Oh and Canon should hire a few people who actually read it.



Canon USA did that quite some time back. Canon employees moderate and participate in their forums.


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